# urgent advice needed



## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Long story short this guy calls me I'm not sure exactly what his position is when I ask if he was the owner of the property he tells me yeah yeah kind of I oversee all the construction and I said okay so you're the superintendent and he said yeah no not really, so I just dropped it. After I talk to him about the project, which is 150 squares on the first building and there's 9 additional buildings to follow, he tells me he's in a big hurry and he needs to start this project in 2 days could I handle that. 

I said that's a bit ridiculous but I've been known to swing some crazy things before send me over the roof plans let me have a look at the project and I'll get back with you. He says okay, I send him my email address... 5 hours later still no plans I call and leave a message, no response. next day I called my crew guy and said "if you know this guy call him and ask where the plans are" Crew guy called me back says plans are on the way. 10 hours later still no plans I called the guy back he answers tells me he's on his way to the office and he'll send them with an hour. by 11 o'clock that night still no plans. the next day tells me the same thing and he sends me the plans but it wasn't the roof plans it was a picture of the side of the building. 

By this time I'm already done dealing with this guy I'm so pissed off. The guy calls me back apologizes asked me to meet him at 9 o'clock in the morning yesterday. Calls back changes it to the next day at noon, then 2 and now to 230. 
The only reason I'm even going is because he sent me a text message saying that I would be meeting with the building owner, the superintendent and himself at this meeting.

I still don't know what his position is however if I have to report to him on this project I'm not going to take the job. Would it be terribly rude of me to ask who I'm reporting to and if they say that guy for me to decline the job based on the fact that Ive been around long enough to know this kind of behavior doesn't change and I know this guy is going to be a ***** to work with.

Or should I take the job and then discuss it with the owner privately?


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Tell them you deal with property owner only, after all that's the guy you will be suing when you dont get paid.

That should get the point across.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I firmly believe.. If It don't start off good..:whistling


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

Who would be paying, and who would have the warranty? Are they one and the same? 

There is no doubt that the person you've been dealing with hasn't got it all together. I mean, if things happen (which has been associated with living life), the prudent thing to do, as far as the guy you're speaking of, would be to communicate.

As Blacktop said, doesn't sound good when starting off like this. It has been my experience when something starts out weird, it is also weird come the time to get final payment (sometimes any payment). I tend to avoid these situations like the plague.


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## D.E.P.S. (Aug 3, 2013)

He might be a property manager for a real estate broker or property management company. I deal with these types all the time. I get some work from them once in a while, but it takes them forever to get their ducks in a row. Expect to wait a month before you get a check depending on when you finish the work. Most of them pay in 30 day cycles.


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## PoleBarnsNY (Jan 18, 2014)

madrina said:


> Would it be terribly rude of me to ask who I'm reporting to


No



madrina said:


> and if they say that guy for me to decline the job


No tell them you are happy to do the work on the condition that you report directly to the property owner or someone else reliable. 



madrina said:


> or should I take the job and then discuss it with the owner privately?


You need make an acceptable arrangement before you accept the project.


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## CarrPainting (Jun 29, 2010)

And get EVERYTHING in writing and MAKE SURE you have an exit clause so you can bail if it gets ugly and still keep your money...


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Well, the plot thickens. I went to the meeting, it was me, my labor guy who apparently knows this unreliable guy and the unreliable guy UG. no building owner, no super... 

We sit down and he shows me the site map. Tells me the job we had discussed 150 squares of tpo, was just awarded to someone. Apologizes and said that he just took that position 2 weeks ago and he has been really busy "making changes" what ever that means. Apologizes for being so flaky and bla bla. I was like.... Did i really drive out here to look at a site map? he says the investors who bought the property, bought it along with a bunch of other property. he says we are still welcome to bid on the remaining buildings which btw were 82, 60, 60 60 squares of nothing but tile (as was the one he said was 150 sq of tpo) and one 60 square little ass tpo job that they havent even started framing yet. 

The office where we met was the office of the investors I believe. I dont know where this guy fits in but its definitely not on the construction side. I asked him what the substrate was on the TPO job and he says he didnt know. 2 minutes later he tells me the building getting the tpo roof is all steel, steel trusses, steel frame... So I say, ok so they are most likely going to have a metal deck. He says yes, its a metal deck. ???? Right then i knew he didnt know what the word substrate meant so the guy cant be the gc, super or anything else on our side. 

They give no money up front, they want the mats delivered and progress made on the building before they issue the first check which will be 2 weeks supposedly.
I tell him that I will do that if he will write a joint check to me and my supplier.

He says, No we dont do joint checks. But really I dont think he knows what that is. Is that possible? I hate people that get a job because they know someone. Why WONT they do a joint check? that is ridiculous. Im not putting one frecking cent on someones roof out of my pocket. Especially a group of people who just bought up billions of dollars in real estate and had it developed. Please, their attorney would laugh if I tried to sue them. and they could just probably have someone whack me if they wanted to. 

Hell if i was that rich, Id be putting hits out on people left and right just because I could. Dont even get me started on what id do to some little minion trying to sue me over 20 grand. 

Anyway he says, well if you want to bid these out we would definitely consider them. I said yeah well ive been trying to get a roof plan from you for 4 days, I cant bid anything off a site map. So he goes oh yeah, hey receptionist girl can you email her the roof plans for this project? 

OMg really? thats all you had to do was delegate that task and ya couldnt even do that in 4 days? wow. Oh yeah... id love to bid that clay tile out for ya seeing how IM A FLAT ROOFER YA KNOW?? I looked him right in the eyes and said, what did the guy who got the job on the first building bid? and he told me. 


im going to bed now. nighty night


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

The middleman.
His wants seem like those who would like to nudge their way into the middle.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Whenever there is this much ambiguity, you are very likely to not get paid.


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

Too much confusion for me. I would either pass or say I needed to meet with the person paying the bills. 
Get a signed contract. In this case I would insist on money up front.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

There isn't really a question here, is there:whistling


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## Skyvorima (Nov 3, 2013)

Run from that project. I mean get some ACME explosive sneakers and do an Olympic sprint until the memory is completely gone. This is a nightmare situation for any contractor.


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

Why even bother if he can't.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

brunothedog said:


> The middleman.
> His wants seem like those who would like to nudge their way into the middle.


 You got that right.
Here's the game:
This clown knows the owners and they contracted him to do the roofs.
He doesn't know a roof from a basement, but he is shopping for a sucker to jump right in and do these with no notice, no contracts, no deposits.

Then when the roofs are done he collects from the owners and skips town leaving you holding the bag.


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## BugmanBCE (Apr 20, 2013)

I always prefer to know who is paying me, how, and when. If you haven't spoken to that person to get those answers, don't do any work. 

I had some group try to get me to do some work for them the other day and to get paid I would have to get registered in their system as a vendor and then submit invoices. Internet reviews said they don't pay. I told him I would do it but my charge for dealing with their billing system was $500 due in advance and asked if he already had my address to send the check to. 

Some people need to learn that they have to do business like the rest of us.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Better jump off this train wreck while you can. Go to the real paying job.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

as soon as he said he needs you to start in 2 days you should have said no thanks and moved on....

there's a reason he needs someone in 2 days......he doesnt pay well or at all and is jumping around from sub to sub

there's so much wrong with this deal i cant believe you are still in the game w/ them

are you desperate for work? find better customers


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## ohiohandyman (May 17, 2014)

I wouldn't take the job. It sounds like it/he will be more of a pain than it's worth. And you may not get paid to boot. And even if you do take the job and end up getting paid you are not going to be treated well along the way, I mean, you haven't been yet.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

BugmanBCE said:


> I always prefer to know who is paying me, how, and when. If you haven't spoken to that person to get those answers, don't do any work.
> 
> I had some group try to get me to do some work for them the other day and to get paid I would have to get registered in their system as a vendor and then submit invoices. Internet reviews said they don't pay. I told him I would do it but my charge for dealing with their billing system was $500 due in advance and asked if he already had my address to send the check to.
> 
> Some people need to learn that they have to do business like the rest of us.


Wouldnt be the nessel group would it?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Bail...always, always, always trust your guy!


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Ya, Ive learned my lesson by jumping into a job before, ill never do that again. And he said he needed someone in two days but seeing how it had been 4 and I still didn't have any plans, I assumed he was basically expressing urgency. 

He had a contract on the table and I said "what's this?" because it was like a book. He said oh that's a contract for this job. I said, is it for me and he saId yes, I said ok and put it in my bag, zipped it up, and put it back on the floor. I could tell that he was a little taken back by it because he wanted to say something but stopped himself. 

I was already pissed about him not sending the plans 5 times when he said he was sending them, then about the people he said were going to be at the meeting and they were not there. Then I get there and sit down and he has the site map on the table and tells me that the job we were bidding was awarded already. To top it off he told me it was 150sq tpo job and it was 82 squares of tile. There is 5 other tile buildings and he was telling us to bid on them... and I said why? You already hired a tile guy? There are 5 more near identical buildings right next door to each other that you plan on doing back to back. Why is this dude trying to waste my time?, 

Oh and his secretary was "sending me the plans yesterday"remember? STILL DONT HAVE THEM. IM DONE W THIS JERK. I Stuck it out because he said the building owners were going to be at that meeting and I thought I could bypass him altogether. Or at least figure out wth was goin on. But you're right that dude doesn't know a roof from a basement. And anyone who put him in that position is an even bigger dumbas$. How do stupid people get so rich making stupid decisions like that? Let me make a stupid decision trying to cut thru a gas station to dodge the red light and I get in a wreck, the cops come, I get arrested cuz I had a warrant.... car gets towed, phone gets broken at the jail, don't know anyone's number to get my kid from school, have to call the school collect and tell them my kid has to go home w her friend.. total humiliation and embarrassment... that the kinda crap that would happen to me. 

But they put a total douchebag in a position to oversee several billion dollar developments, and everything works out fine.. 

On the other hand I met this country ass ******* remodeling the quicktrips, and he needs someone to put a pizza vent in the roof. Went and looked at a completed one the same day he called, he provides the curb and installs the vent, all I have to do is cut the hole and run the tpo up the curb. He said he needs 2 done a week and there's 14 of them. I said cool, told him how much and shook his hand. Done.. 

Real people, real construction workers, shoot straight, move fast and don't have time to be jerked around by some jerk w piss stains on his pants. 

Wow, I can't believe I even let that guy do me that way. I knew better. I knew the first time he said he would send me the plans and didn't. 

Oh well I can't wait til he calls me to do that 60 squares of tpo. I'm gonna be like, yeah sure ill start tomorrow.. and just not show up.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

madrina said:


> Wow, I can't believe I even let that guy do me that way. I knew better.


:whistling


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

At least he didn't get to burn me for 30 grand and then tell me to meet him at the jobsite and call the cops on me when I got there so he could steal my materials.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

"Watch out, there's a lot of snakes up there."

(Attorney when I told him I was moving to Dallas)


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Yeah well Jesus told us this would happen. 

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.


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## shesbros (Jun 15, 2005)

After 20 years I have only learned one thing for sure. My initial gut reaction has never been wrong. My only question would have been, who's ultimately in charge here? Without a satisfactory answer, I'm gone.


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## havanabar (May 28, 2014)

I'm not sure this is even up for discussion past the actual meeting with this guy.

It sounds like its one of these projects where at least one sub is going out of business because of the owners / reps lack of understanding of construction. Easiest way to make sure its not you .... move on and pretend they never called you.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

I did. After the meeting, I was done with that guy. Nice job, but not nice enough to deal with that crap.


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## JUSTINTOWN (May 16, 2014)

madrina said:


> Long story short this guy calls me I'm not sure exactly what his position is when I ask if he was the owner of the property he tells me yeah yeah kind of I oversee all the construction and I said okay so you're the superintendent and he said yeah no not really, so I just dropped it. After I talk to him about the project, which is 150 squares on the first building and there's 9 additional buildings to follow, he tells me he's in a big hurry and he needs to start this project in 2 days could I handle that.
> 
> I said that's a bit ridiculous but I've been known to swing some crazy things before send me over the roof plans let me have a look at the project and I'll get back with you. He says okay, I send him my email address... 5 hours later still no plans I call and leave a message, no response. next day I called my crew guy and said "if you know this guy call him and ask where the plans are" Crew guy called me back says plans are on the way. 10 hours later still no plans I called the guy back he answers tells me he's on his way to the office and he'll send them with an hour. by 11 o'clock that night still no plans. the next day tells me the same thing and he sends me the plans but it wasn't the roof plans it was a picture of the side of the building.
> 
> ...


Best way is to write your contract with Progress Payments... 50% down and 50% is and it has never been a good way to do business!!!

I brake down my payments in weekly payments, that way, if he doesn't pay, you walk away!!! It's good for you to point this Progress Payment as something good for him so when he sees progress, he pays type of thing... Sometimes it may rain and I can't work in the rain... etc.. etc... bla... bla... bla... Be careful, he is giving all the indications he is going to be trouble, so do the Progress Payment and start the job. Now, if he does not agree with the progress payment and wants to pay you 50%/50%... walk away... better yet.. run! Good Luck! Alex


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

If the job takes more than a week I do progress payments. But its kindof hard when its a 3 day job to do anything other than 50/50. 

And I don't ever do nothing up front. I won't even let them purchase materials anymore. I'm sick of the customer dictating how I'm going to operate. Screw that. If I am putting their roof on they are coming off 50% up front. If not, they can find someone else. I'm not a big enough company nor do I have the time money or energy to get caught up in court over the crap. 

I feel that Is more than fair to both sides, it gives me what I need to do the job and it gives them enough to hold until they are satisfied.


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## JUSTINTOWN (May 16, 2014)

I totally agree with you on this!
In addition, you are supposed to be the expert and not them... if they start trying to dictate how you should either do the work or how you should do the work, it's time to either stop and have a talk so you can set the records straight or just don't take the job!

I know, it's hard for a contractor not to take a job, it's like asking a car dealer not to sell a car or to pick and chose his/her client... Good Luck my friend!!! Alex


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## NCMCarpentry (Apr 7, 2013)

I would have said what I had to say to get him off the phone the first time when he said he needed to start in 2 days and never called him again...


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## JUSTINTOWN (May 16, 2014)

Man... right there... you got it!!! 
There is something majorly wrong with this guy... Start the job in 2 days??? Does he think you carry all the tools, guys and materials in your truck??? Amazing, don't take this job man if you can afford it, I smell rat!


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## EmmCeeDee (May 23, 2010)

blacktop said:


> I firmly believe.. If It don't start off good..:whistling


Word. Construction relationships generally do not improve over time. 

If that guy was a flake at the beginning of the job just think what he would be like when it came time to cut a check.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

That's exactly what I told my crew. My lead wanted me to take it so bad.. he is really the one who put it in front of us.. I kept telling him no and he kept saying "aaaaaaaaaaaaaahh maammie porque no?! Es good job!!" I told him, no, man, I'm telling you, if he is like this now, getting paid is going to be worse. 

He was all bent when I told him I wasn't going to do it. But he should understand. He was on that apartment job with me that I got burnt on.

I did think about running by the job to see who the roofer was and then seeing how and if he was getting paid. But (if I may quote another ct member...)"then I remembered I didn't care"


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## JUSTINTOWN (May 16, 2014)

madrina said:


> That's exactly what I told my crew. My lead wanted me to take it so bad.. he is really the one who put it in front of us.. I kept telling him no and he kept saying "aaaaaaaaaaaaaahh maammie porque no?! Es good job!!" I told him, no, man, I'm telling you, if he is like this now, getting paid is going to be worse.
> 
> He was all bent when I told him I wasn't going to do it. But he should understand. He was on that apartment job with me that I got burnt on.
> 
> I did think about running by the job to see who the roofer was and then seeing how and if he was getting paid. But (if I may quote another ct member...)"then I remembered I didn't care"


Look, this is not an easy job, that's for sure!
Truth of the matter is, and nobody likes to touch on this subject, but some "prospective" clients... I don't even call them clients.. but some prospective clients do deserve to be burned by a scrupulous contractor, why do I say scrupulous? Well because if we, dind't care we would not be here spending our time debating about it! Some of these prospective "clients" do want to find a nice contractor that they can stick to them... So, Mannie... don't even waste your time and gas going to that job site my friend... I don't know about you but from 8/10 Prospective clients I go see, I may close 1 or 2 jobs, so God Bless you and go on with your life, I just feel sorry for the roofer that did take that job, but you can always put a Mechanic's Lien on the house.

Look, I never "bark" never... if a feel the client is not going to pay me, I run to the court and file a lien... I then get the phone call of this client screaming at me as to why I filed the lien...NOW LETS BE HONEST HERE GUYS.... He/she doesn't know why I field the lean??? Come on.... Don't "bark" means, don't threat them... that you are going to do this or that... just do it... it cost 40 dollars and you get the issue resolved.

Some of the guys here at CT once accused me of being a "Paper Work Contractor" you dorn right I am! Today we just can't swing the hammer, we have to think and think ahead!


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## JUSTINTOWN (May 16, 2014)

madrina said:


> That's exactly what I told my crew. My lead wanted me to take it so bad.. he is really the one who put it in front of us.. I kept telling him no and he kept saying "aaaaaaaaaaaaaahh maammie porque no?! Es good job!!" I told him, no, man, I'm telling you, if he is like this now, getting paid is going to be worse.
> 
> He was all bent when I told him I wasn't going to do it. But he should understand. He was on that apartment job with me that I got burnt on.
> 
> I did think about running by the job to see who the roofer was and then seeing how and if he was getting paid. But (if I may quote another ct member...)"then I remembered I didn't care"


One more thing if I may.

YOU are the one fronting the money, YOU are the one paying your crew and your lead, YOU are the one left in the rain if s____ hits the fan... So look... Don't take advise from your crew!!! Listen! but never make a decision if your gut feeling is telling you otherwise.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

You should have told your lead guy to do the job himself.

That would learn him real quick.

Andy.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Justin, thanks for the reply but I didn't take the job, nor would I put myself on the line because my crew wanted the job. It was like a one day rant about what a douche this guy was.next day I thought I could meet w someone who knew their ass from their head, didn't happen... I was done. 

And my crew can't do the job with out me because they lack the credentials. Plus, we just don't do biz like that. He is my one ace in the hole dependable guy..above all others. (Except for my helicopter pilot xxoo) lol


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