# Join a union?



## drywalltaping (May 28, 2012)

Hello.

I am the owner of a small drywalling and taping company. We do mostly private homes at the time, but I would like to expand into doing bigger projects. Having said that a lot of jobs i am bidding on require companies that are in a union. 
I am lost on this subject and would appreciate if you could help me understand if its worthwhile to go this route, what the benefits and drawbacks are of joining a union. And what union, as an owner of the company, i have to join. I am in toronto, ontario.

Thank you a lot in advance


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

They will be in your books.

They dictate what you can do.

Their fees and dues will double your expense.

Forget doing any non-union work.

And I hope that you like Democrats because that's where your money will go.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> They will be in your books.
> 
> They dictate what you can do.
> 
> ...


I hate unions but that's not true.

I have been in the union, for bigger work you pretty much have to be in it if you are surrounded by union shops etc.

They are not in your books and they do not control your company.

They Democratic deal is correct but it's small and comes out of union dues from employees. When I was union it amounted to about $80 a year.

What the union did do for me was allow me to run some of the largest jobs in the state.

Go talk to a union rep and it's all in the contract. It's not a mystery. I walked away from the union and it took about 10 seconds and the deal was over.

I would never do it again but they have a place. The union trade school was a multimillion dollar school dedicated to very advanced training. It was second to nobody.

The non-union school was uncle billy cousin joe. 

When everybody is on a job like a hospital for instance you don't even know you're in a union. It's no different than being a non-union. The best part is if you don't like an employee you can give him a pink slip and he's gone in about 5 minutes. 

You can't do both though, once you take the union road the small stuff is bid to cheap to get, your costs tend to be higher.


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## drywalltaping (May 28, 2012)

Thank you , TNTSERVICES , for your reply.

So you are basically saying there are absolutely no reasons a contractor like myself should join a union?

How about jobs you will be able to get once in a union, will they not compensate for increased pain in the neck? Is it a realistic thinking to believe that union will help you get bigger projects?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Oh, and they don't dictate jobs either. They all bid and it's all competitive. I was part of that process and worked for the largest 2 contractors in the state. The union does nothing to get you work UNLESS it's against non-union companies in which case they back fund the job out of a fund they keep.


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## drywalltaping (May 28, 2012)

Thank you Oconomowoc for sharing your experience.

Getting the biggest jobs in the state was pretty sweet, so why did you decide you would never return to the union again, if you don't mind me asking?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Also.....

The union can help you in a way. I'll explain.

I was on a hospital and it was 3 months from being done. I was a foreman. I approached the union and asked what was in the pipeline. The union rep asked me "hey, there's a company that's never ran a dialysis clinic and they have a chance to get it, would you like to run that?"

So you see, the idea is they train people well and the owner was able to bid on a job with no experience. Why? Because I sat down and made sure his hours and material were correct. That's a big opportunity for a small company that wants to go. In essence, the small company can be as large as they want to be.

As much as I hate the union mentality I can say this with confidence; Never have I worked with more knowledgeable and well trained people in my life. Non-union shops don't have adequate training because it's not structured but more importantly they don't do large work so the tradesmen never get experience. Bidding is a shot in the dark.

So if you wanted to bid a new ballpark stadium for a major sports team you can team up and split the work and the unions (via foreman) play a big roll in this. 

I spent an entire summer inside the mechanical room of a hospital. I was surround by the best guys in the industry. In short, the plumbers were frickn awesome! No non-union shop could possible even begin to understand the things we were doing with med-gas and compressors etc.

Drywall is no different. For example, you could have a chance to bid on say a 6th floor hospital remodel but you have never done it. In the union you could ask for a top notch drywall foreman and sit down together and he would know exactly how that job needs to.come together. Teamwork.

In a non-union setting you have no help at all. ZERO!

In a poor economy there's top notch guys on the bench waiting for work. 

The problem with the unions, at least for me, is the mentality of the worker. They are protected and shielded and they get arrogant. The best way to combat that is build a great reputation as a great employer and people will beg to work for you.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

drywalltaping said:


> Thank you Oconomowoc for sharing your experience.
> 
> Getting the biggest jobs in the state was pretty sweet, so why did you decide you would never return to the union again, if you don't mind me asking?


Sure. Being one guy with no employees and doing residential work is simply not a union gig. I'm sure you understand.

I hated the mentality though, but that was when times were good and everybody was working. Lol, the bench was clean. 

I was a big union supporter in fact I was in union commercials doing a Sunday show every week for a while. They were a great group of guys and like I say the skill set is unmatched. 

The drywall guys I worked with were skilled like I've never seen since. They were the best of the best and they were very professional. All the trades really, I miss those guys a lot.

But like I say, the mentality wares on you. Guys that have never ran big union jobs for months or years on end have no clue what a union is about. Unless you have done it you don't know. 

It's a love/hate relationship. Lol


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> Oh, and they don't dictate jobs either. They all bid and it's all competitive. I was part of that process and worked for the largest 2 contractors in the state. The union does nothing to get you work UNLESS it's against non-union companies in which case they back fund the job out of a fund they keep.


They do, you can only do union work. That sounds like dictating to me.

As for the books, if they find out that you have done nonunion work, you are out.


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## tlcarri (Jun 6, 2011)

all is true, we did non union residential work all the time. they said that was ok. we went union for 1 year and found out that we were paying them and extra $10,000 per month for 12 guys. It killed us. we left them with no problem. not worth it.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> They do, you can only do union work. That sounds like dictating to me.
> 
> As for the books, if they find out that you have done nonunion work, you are out.


That's a ridiculous statement and quite a fringe thought process Rob.

The fact that you can only do union work is a pointless conversation, the only way that could happen is if you had non-union guys which would be a stupid business decision, the union has nothing to do with stupid business decisions.

Gonna have to do better than that Rob. Lol


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> Sure. Being one guy with no employees and doing residential work is simply not a union gig. I'm sure you understand.
> 
> I hated the mentality though, but that was when times were good and everybody was working. Lol, the bench was clean.
> 
> ...


You don't have to do something in order to know it. I live near Chicago and worked in the city around Unions to know exactly what they are about. You are correct, the attitude sucks.

And it is true that it will double your costs.

90% of the union jobs that we were on, there was a bunch of lazy arse guys "waiting around" for the next guy to finish his job. They were not allowed to help outside their trade and skill level. I have been on the big jobs that you are referring to and it sucked. So much waste.

We had to wait twice as long to get anything done because of all of the different trades and processes. None of which had to do with anything important, it was all about job security. 

And saying that they have an unmatched skill set is ridiculous. I know dozens of nonunion contractors that can walk circles around union guys.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> They do, you can only do union work. That sounds like dictating to me.
> 
> As for the books, if they find out that you have done nonunion work, you are out.


Also. They don't look at your books. That is the most ridiculous statement on a union I've every heard. A union is a group controlled employees. Nothing more. 

Are you gonna tell me now they go to the bank with the business owner next? Come on. Lol


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> That's a ridiculous statement and quite a fringe thought process Rob.
> 
> The fact that you can only do union work is a pointless conversation, the only way that could happen is if you had non-union guys which would be a stupid business decision, the union has nothing to do with stupid business decisions.
> 
> Gonna have to do better than that Rob. Lol


What? You just made my point for me. You can only work on union sites. You can only hire union guys. So when there are no union jobs, guess what you are out of luck. How is that ridiculous? How is that a pointless conversation. He needs to know that once he is union it 100% union. No more working with non union GC's, 100% union.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> Also. They don't look at your books. That is the most ridiculous statement on a union I've every heard. A union is a group controlled employees. Nothing more.
> 
> Are you gonna tell me now they go to the bank with the business owner next? Come on. Lol


No, when I say books, I mean what jobs you are on. If you are not 100% union you are out. Is that a false statement? Are you not out if you work on a non union job?

Oh and forget about starting another business doing drywall that isn't union, that's a no no as well.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You don't have to do something in order to know it. I live near Chicago and worked in the city around Unions to know exactly what they are about. You are correct, the attitude sucks.
> 
> And it is true that it will double your costs.
> 
> ...


I'm happy for you. Have you every been a union employee and worked on 12 million dollar jobs....just for one trade?

What you saw was your outside experience in a non-union shop. Which basically means nothing.

Wages are not double either, that's ridiculous. My wages as a foreman back then were about $40 an hour. At the time my non-union buddies were making about $35 on the check. We both had health insurance. Union dues were pretty cheap.

Regardless, big projects in bigger cities are usually union. Insurance companies require it.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tlcarri said:


> all is true, we did non union residential work all the time. they said that was ok. we went union for 1 year and found out that we were paying them and extra $10,000 per month for 12 guys. It killed us. we left them with no problem. not worth it.


I wasn't talking about residential work, and by residential I mean working for the HO, but you cannot work for a non union GC. You cannot go on a non union commercial site. You would not be able to work for a non-union residential builder.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> No, when I say books, I mean what jobs you are on. If you are not 100% union you are out. Is that a false statement? Are you not out if you work on a non union job?
> 
> Oh and forget about starting another business doing drywall that isn't union, that's a no no as well.


Rob. You are out of your league on this topic and I'm not gonna do the back and fourth banter for hours on end.

Carry on with somebody else.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

Just to clarify, I have done hospital, industrial and dialysis unit renovations and my plumber does all the gas conversions and installations, process piping, RTU pipe ins and even had to coach Pevco on how to install THEIR compress based delivery system.

He is non union.

It's not strictly union guys that know advanced construction. 

And just because someone is non union does not mean the employees aren't trained. Its the employer's responsibility to train to have properly trained employees. 

An older carpenter or plumber with a beat up work van can hire one employee and train him to be the best plumber in the world and better than any union employee, if he too knows the material and application. 

And while I do agree the union provides superb training, they are not the only quality training center around. ABC provides outstanding training to any contractor that is a member. COUNT is another, although they are tied into the union, there are others. 

It takes a good, well trained and willing to teach employer and an energetic willing to teach employee. Together you can have a technician that far exceeds one that went to the school just to fulfill their union requirements.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> I'm happy for you. Have you every been a union employee and worked on 12 million dollar jobs....just for one trade?
> 
> What you saw was your outside experience in a non-union shop. Which basically means nothing.
> 
> ...


I guess you are the man. I love it when people feel the need to throw around numbers to make themselves look important. I guess us little guys can't have a well informed opinion. I guess I have to swim in a sesspool to know that it wouldn't be fun. Talk about ridiculous. By your own logic, one must experience something before they can have an opinion about it. Give me a break!

And I said cost, not wages.


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## brick (May 8, 2012)

It's never cool to see a massive crew of brickies building "a wall" when your trying to get into your site and provide for your family.JMHO!


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Still don't get the providing for the family part. On union jobs at least, proper and safe access to and from a job is planned and monitored. 

Unless I'm missing something.


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## brick (May 8, 2012)

sorry 4 the repost. Anyways, I'm referring to a picket line. Not really a safe passage,till the police arrive. Oh wait, they're union too.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

brick said:


> sorry 4 the repost. Anyways, I'm referring to a picket line. Not really a safe passage,till the police arrive. Oh wait, they're union too.


Lol, ok now I gotcha!


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Huh..I don't think that Mud has run a 12 million dollar project or been in the union, why does he get an opinion?


Damn me and my opinions!!!


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> They will be in your books.
> They dictate what you can do.
> Their fees and dues will double your expense.
> Forget doing any non-union work.
> And I hope that you like Democrats because that's where your money will go.





TNTSERVICES said:


> They do, you can only do union work. That sounds like dictating to me.
> 
> As for the books, if they find out that you have done nonunion work, you are out.


Man if you only knew what you were talking about:blink: I guess it could be different all over the place. OP where are you at? We have many shops here that do nonunion residential work and union commercial work.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

NJ Brickie said:


> To the OP. I am a union tradesman, let's get that out right away. And I have worked both union and non-union. It depends on your company goals and location. If you want to be a small residential contractor. You are probably better off staying non-union. If you want to be a small commercial contractor it depends on your area if you would be better union/non-union. If you want to be a mid sized to large commercial contractor it will usually benefit you to be union.
> 
> TNT. You seem to have an axe to grind about something you are not as knowledgeable about as you seem to think. As a union sub contractor you can work for a non-union GC. We do very often. No one from the union is "in the books" of the company I work for. People tend to lose sight of the fact that the companies are not "union", the employees are. Are your employees in your books? Union companies bid on jobs just like non-union companies. You are right that union companies are not allowed to have a non-union side or that once you sign you are 100% union. But aren't you 100% non-union?


I wouldn't expect a pro union guy to admit the short comings of the union. We had a local shop cut off from the union when it was found out they were working for a non union GC. It happens all the time brother. I live in a very pro union state and have worked in Chicago thousands of hours right along side union contractors. You guys are not going to convince me or anyone else that knows the truth that I am wrong. I have seen it mine own eyes.

You might ask, how did we work shoulder to shoulder with union guys? We were refereed to the new tenants by realtors. However we had to have fake union cards and park down the street. We couldn't have any logos or company name on anything, for it we were discovered we know exactly what union guys do to known union company and personal vehicles. You guys may play union, but these guys out here live it. 

And sure I have a beef with organized crime and thuggery. Unions are nothing but a legal gang. They intimidate and harass hard working Americans. They are pretty much pond scum in my book. I tried to have a civil conversation with a union guy picketing a Dick's sporting goods store. Guess what I got. I lot of F-bombs and three or four guys taking pictures of my truck and license plate. All that I asked was what they meant by unsafe work practices. All they could talk about was wages and benefits. Then come to find out, half of them were not even union, they were paid to be there. :laughing:

The mentality that Union guys are more skilled and that they deserve the jobs because no one else knows how to do it boils my blood. This is America, the land of the FREE. The fact that, as Mike stated, you have to be in the union to get the training to get the special license is BS. Teacher's unions alone contribute nearly 5.5 million dollars a year to the democratic party. Don't let the $80 a year fool you. Unions spent over $400 million dollars to help re-elect Obama.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Man if you only knew what you were talking about:blink: I guess it could be different all over the place. OP where are you at? We have many shops here that do nonunion residential work and union commercial work.


Like I said, if you want to work for joe schmoe HO, you can, but try and be a union plumber and work on a nonunion housing development. As soon as they find out you are working along side non union sparkys forget about it.

I work for a union plumber, and it's hush hush. They told me that the shop would be kicked out of the union if they found out that they were hiring non-union contractors to work for them.

The guy I work with worked for a union carpenter. When the union found out he owned another nonunion company his union company was out.

Just because you guys say that I don't know what I am talking about, doesn't make it true.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

What about this?

http://chicagoist.com/2011/08/02/carpenters_union_fines_member_200k.php


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> Rob. You are out of your league on this topic and I'm not gonna do the back and fourth banter for hours on end.
> 
> Carry on with somebody else.





TNTSERVICES said:


> I work for a union plumber, and it's hush hush. They told me that the shop would be kicked out of the union if they found out that they were hiring non-union contractors to work for them.


Gee I wonder why:blink: So who's stealing from who here:blink:


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## detroit687 (Sep 4, 2008)

First of all you cant compare public sector unions to private sector labor unions.

Second yes there are some slugs out there that are union but you guys see some rotten apples and make ignorant comments like this. 

Look at all the undocumented illeagal, non english speaking trades people making pennys on the dollar compared union labor workers. Union guys could bash non union guys all day long its just not worth it because half of them dont speak english

What do you think the national average non union carpenter makes

How much do you think the average non union carpenter retires with?


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What about this?
> 
> http://chicagoist.com/2011/08/02/carpenters_union_fines_member_200k.php


About the link,,,The union over here doesn't care. :no:


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

detroit687 said:


> What do you think the national average non union carpenter makes
> 
> How much do you think the average non union carpenter retires with?


These are great questions! I didn't know that nonunion carpenter retires:blink:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I like how the $80 a year is thrown in with the $400 million. Good gosh man, the total has nothing to do with what I paid.

The $80 a year is per person and you can request it back by law. Most don't but I'm not responsible for them and the choices they make. 

Robs view of the union is how he works undercover like a secret agent or something. Between that and Service Magic it makes out for a pretty interesting life.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

detroit687 said:


> First of all you cant compare public sector unions to private sector labor unions.
> 
> Second yes there are some slugs out there that are union but you guys see some rotten apples and make ignorant comments like this.
> 
> ...


And hear is the wage argument, like I said, that's pretty much what it all comes down to $$$$. Not safe work practices, education or any other Union line, it about the $$$. 

And why do you care what a non union guy makes? Who cares? If they are happy with what they make, then what difference does it make. You don't need unions to make a decent wage or to get benefits. That my friend is union brain washing.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> About the link,,,The union over here doesn't care. :no:


But you were so quick to tell me that I didn't know what I was talking about. I don't doubt that your union is different. Heck all unions are different. Some require a CBA to work non union jobs, but, to me, if there is a CBA in place, it's a non-union outfit acting like a union and playing by their rules.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> I like how the $80 a year is thrown in with the $400 million. Good gosh man, the total has nothing to do with what I paid.
> 
> The $80 a year is per person and you can request it back by law. Most don't but I'm not responsible for them and the choices they make.
> 
> Robs view of the union is how he works undercover like a secret agent or something. Between that and Service Magic it makes out for a pretty interesting life.


Sure it does. It adds to the total. Without it, there would be no $400 million. And many unions cannot opt out. Not sure how you being in one union makes you an expert on all unions?


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You don't need unions to make a decent wage or to get benefits. That my friend is union brain washing.


No you don't but you would need a prevailing wage job with a certified payroll to equal it! The union worker makes more than his nonunion coworker. Prevailing wage for a carpenter here is 57 and change per hour. I love that work:thumbsup:


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I wouldn't expect a pro union guy to admit the short comings of the union. We had a local shop cut off from the union when it was found out they were working for a non union GC. It happens all the time brother. I live in a very pro union state and have worked in Chicago thousands of hours right along side union contractors. You guys are not going to convince me or anyone else that knows the truth that I am wrong. I have seen it mine own eyes.
> 
> You might ask, how did we work shoulder to shoulder with union guys? We were refereed to the new tenants by realtors. However we had to have fake union cards and park down the street. We couldn't have any logos or company name on anything, for it we were discovered we know exactly what union guys do to known union company and personal vehicles. You guys may play union, but these guys out here live it.
> 
> ...


You stated that as a union sub that you CAN NOT work for a non-union GC. That is completely false. Also if it is a government funded job and everyone is making prevailing wage (non-union guys), it is illegal to picket that job. I work next to non-union subs very often. You are entitled to your opinions, but you are wrong. 

You said you tried to have a civil conversation with some one on a picket line, did it start off like the first sentence of your response to me? "I wouldn't expect a pro union guy to admit the short comings of the union." Feel free to look up my previous posts about union topics on this site and you can take that back anytime :laughing:

I am more then willing to have civil conversations/debates with anyone on this topic. Even with the people that call me pond scum :laughing: The labor history of this country and present labor topics interest me very much.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

I looker it up on a pay stub.....
Prevailing wage here is 57.62$ per hour
40 hour week is gross 2,304.80$
net 1,729.65$
Yup I could live on that.
If I could only work for 6 months a year for that I'd be happier that a fly in a fresh pile of shrimp :blink:


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Weather to go union or not really depends on the jobs that are out there to bid. Very little union work around my area, but south of me there is more.


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## Henn Drywall (Dec 17, 2012)

There's a ton of speculating comments being made that just aren't true, and people are making themselves look foolish. 

You have trade unions, which are private contractors, confused with government unions (someone mentioned this through my readings). 

We have been competing with non union contractors here in jersey and still winning bids(this has been going on for a long time). We don't win all, but we win enough to keep the knowledgable, hard working tradesman steady (at least in my trade, carpentry). 

The question you have to ask yourself is how are union contractors winning bids vs non-union contractors if they're paying their guys 2 and 3 fold non-union contractors?

I don't look, talk, or speak down to or about non-union guys. I do side work all the time, sheet rocking houses, trim, hardwood floors, etc, does that make me a union or non-union guy? We're one in the same, just a bunch of men trying to survive out here. I feel sad for the pond scum comment. It's such a sweeping generalization, and you don't know anyone personally.


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## UALocal1Plumber (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm with Ocon 100% here. The union is the only reason that guys like us can consider having a nice middle class life with a high school education. The benefits FAR outweigh the negatives (which certainly exist as both he and I can attest to).

I love the emotional babysitter comment. LOVE IT! It's something you'd only get if you've been a GF on a job. The fact that we're both plumbers gives a lot to compare as well!

I've been a member in good standing of local 1 for over 12 years.

But i'm taking a little break right now to settle back from some drama.

Keith


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## cabinetsnj (Jun 10, 2012)

UALocal1Plumber said:


> I'm with Ocon 100% here. The union is the only reason that guys like us can consider having a nice middle class life with a high school education. The benefits FAR outweigh the negatives (which certainly exist as both he and I can attest to).
> 
> I love the emotional babysitter comment. LOVE IT! It's something you'd only get if you've been a GF on a job. The fact that we're both plumbers gives a lot to compare as well!
> 
> ...



Unions are great. They help you make more money.


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## brick (May 8, 2012)

Why are there so many union labor guys in here, I thought this was a contractor site?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

The best drywaller I ever met was a union guy. He told me about doing casinos where the union dbs instructed the crews to only finish 10 sheets a day. Pretty typical. In my opinion unions are one of the major issues with this country. They are just another blood sucking, entitled, nanny state arm of the democratic party. 

Started by thugs, run by thugs, and to the benefit of food stampers all over the country.

As to wages. I make a chit ton more than any union hand because I work hard and dont hide behind anybody.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

brick said:


> Why are there so many union labor guys in here, I thought this was a contractor site?


There are plenty of people here that are not contractors. There are employees of contractors, vendors, insurance brokers, engineers, architects, and I am sure some other professions. My opinion is that is what keeps this site interesting and helpful.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> The best drywaller I ever met was a union guy. He told me about doing casinos where the union dbs instructed the crews to only finish 10 sheets a day. Pretty typical. In my opinion unions are one of the major issues with this country. They are just another blood sucking, entitled, nanny state arm of the democratic party.
> 
> Started by thugs, run by thugs, and to the benefit of food stampers all over the country.
> 
> As to wages. I make a chit ton more than any union hand because I work hard and dont hide behind anybody.


Food stampers?? Really?? Union construction workers make more on average then non-union construction workers. So who is more likely to be on government assistance? Union workers also have health insurance. If a worker does not have health insurance how does he pay for health care? Government assistance? Union workers also have a retirement plan. What happens when workers are too old to work and have no money saved? Government assistance? 

Ultra conservative people tend to bash everyone around them. But you know what they say about people in glass houses right? Fact of the matter is that tons of things that these same people use are government subsidized. From the milk you drink to the gas in your car. Personally I do believe that as a country we need to get away from these subsidies and allow goods and services to reflect actual cost for the most part. Maybe then people will realize some personal responsibility if faced with paying your own way.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Brickie said:


> Food stampers?? Really?? Union construction workers make more on average then non-union construction workers. So who is more likely to be on government assistance? Union workers also have health insurance. If a worker does not have health insurance how does he pay for health care? Government assistance? Union workers also have a retirement plan. What happens when workers are too old to work and have no money saved? Government assistance?
> 
> Ultra conservative people tend to bash everyone around them. But you know what they say about people in glass houses right? Fact of the matter is that tons of things that these same people use are government subsidized. From the milk you drink to the gas in your car. Personally I do believe that as a country we need to get away from these subsidies and allow goods and services to reflect actual cost for the most part. Maybe then people will realize some personal responsibility if faced with paying your own way.


Union boys here spend most of their year on UE and probably food stamps. A journey carpenter, sparkie, or plumber makes 23$ an hour. Six months a year at 23 sucks.


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## brick (May 8, 2012)

I can respect that statement. There is a lot of truth to it. I just don't have patience for the mentality of people who put on tools, go to work for their paycheck, and consider themselves to be in the same game as contractors. Doing the work is the easy part, and unless you know that, than you just don't understand the difference. Personally, I take a lot of pride in the fact that I am the name and the face of my company. It's not just about my 8 hours.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Brick guy,

Unions finance demercrats who in turn steal as much of my money as possible to buy food stamps for people with smart phones and flat screen tvs. 

Dont take it personally. On a micro level im sure it has helped your family, maybe..


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Here a union or prevailing wage guy getting UI can't get foodstamps because his monthly income is too much.:blink:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Henn Drywall said:


> There's a ton of speculating comments being made that just aren't true, and people are making themselves look foolish.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

To the original OP


We are both in Toronto

I have a copy of the union agreement, PM and we can get together if you want to review, if your on the fence still, do not contact them, they will chase you and be on your sites. Do not play tough guy with them, they use tactics to make your life challenging if your in their sights.

If you decide to join you cannot run a dual shop here, you can work on non-union sites, but will be competing with non-union bidders. You cannot quit the union here, once in, your in for life, any blood relative you have that gets into the same trade or within what the union covers...you have just dictated their future for them, I.e. if your father decides to open a painting company and your son decides to open a carpentry company...it's all under the same umbrella...they are automatically union.

As an employee...they can quit the union, however, the union will keep tabs on them, and pursue them when they need workers.

Advantage of the union...need guys, make a phone call at 5:30am and by 7:00am the site can have pretty much as many guys as your need, non-union it's not that simple. 

I have 2 former union employees, they quit the union company and came to work for me, each has been approached to re-join, each has refused, I am an example, but not the normal, I keep my guys busy 44 hours a week, 50 weeks of the year and they are happy, wages I pay are matching or better then union, but no benefits, I will be working on that this summer.

A lot of the larger subdivision builders use union workers, some are even signatory to them. I have bid jobs with 1/2 dozen GC's bidding, some GC's will not accept my bid due to their agreement with the unions, others will as they have no alliances with the union...for the same project.

I'm looking forward to what our conservative government has going on right now, it's in the senate right now, unions will be required to open up for all to see...or be labelled as a gang...which is illegal in Canada


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Brick guy,
> 
> Unions finance demercrats who in turn steal as much of my money as possible to buy food stamps for people with smart phones and flat screen tvs.
> 
> Dont take it personally. On a micro level im sure it has helped your family, maybe..


That is MUCH worse then the Republican's corporate welfare  And I am sure you 100% agree with all Republican policies??

I do not want this to end up in the basement. But anyone in the middle class who thinks either side (Repub/Dem) "has their back" isn't thinking clearly. 

No need to worry about my family, I have that covered. I positioned myself in a place to be able to provide for them. Are the guys working for you in that same position? My family may be a "micro level", but when middle class people are doing well, the country is doing well. Don't you think it is time to stop cheering on the direction this country is going in, the haves and have nots?


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

brick said:


> I can respect that statement. There is a lot of truth to it. I just don't have patience for the mentality of people who put on tools, go to work for their paycheck, and consider themselves to be in the same game as contractors. Doing the work is the easy part, and unless you know that, than you just don't understand the difference. Personally, I take a lot of pride in the fact that I am the name and the face of my company. It's not just about my 8 hours.


It is good that you take pride that you are the name and face of your company. Personally I am "stuck" somewhere in between employee and contractor. I am a foreman for a large masonry outfit. So I deal with a bit of both the working end and a small amount of the business end. 

Maybe it is just how I interpreted you post, but to me it shows a lot of arrogance and superiority. Yes it is nice to be able to leave work at work, but saying that "Doing the work is the easy part, and unless you know that, than you just don't understand the difference." shows that you feel like you are superior to your employees. I give the guys I work with and myself a lot of credit to get out there and work hard every day. I also give my boss a lot of credit to have the "stomach" to run a successful business.

As much as your employees need you, you need them. It is a team and you are the leader. Which is why you make more money.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Union boys here spend most of their year on UE and probably food stamps. A journey carpenter, sparkie, or plumber makes 23$ an hour. Six months a year at 23 sucks.


Only about 15% of this country's construction workforce is union. Much less in southern states like yours. Unemployment rate in this country for construction workers is around 13.5%. Just by the fact that the percentage of unionized construction workers is so low in TX, who do you think has the most people on government assistance, union or non union?? 

TX is actually one of the worst states to be in construction as an employee. The flood of illegal workers. Unions do what they can to combat that. Keeping the work in American hands. TX also does not require WC insurance, who picks up the tab for workers hurt if there is not a WC policy in place? Taxpayers. There are also studies that show almost half of all construction workers in TX live below the state poverty level. Which in TX is by far mostly non union guys.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

NJ Brickie said:


> You are correct, I do know of one masonry outfit in Delaware that has a dual shop. I forgot about that until I started to think about it more. It depends on the agreement with the local. But 99% of shops that I know of are 100% one way or the other.


 Rizzo / Diamond State Masonry is set up this way. 
I know a hvac that way too.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Here a union or prevailing wage guy getting UI can't get foodstamps because his monthly income is too much.:blink:


You missed my point apparently.. :blink: :blink:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

NJ Brickie said:


> That is MUCH worse then the Republican's corporate welfare  And I am sure you 100% agree with all Republican policies??
> 
> I do not want this to end up in the basement. But anyone in the middle class who thinks either side (Repub/Dem) "has their back" isn't thinking clearly.
> 
> No need to worry about my family, I have that covered. I positioned myself in a place to be able to provide for them. Are the guys working for you in that same position? My family may be a "micro level", but when middle class people are doing well, the country is doing well. Don't you think it is time to stop cheering on the direction this country is going in, the haves and have nots?


Corporate wellfare? Seriously? I work for the haves. Unions are run by thugs who have no place in the modern workforce. 

As for cheering for our country? The direction this country is going is disgusting. Im sick to death that the have nots as you call them (moochers) out number the producers. Im not a genius but its pretty simple economics that china cannot loan us enough money to bail out all the single mothers with 14 kids and 14 baby dadies and no plan on getting a job. 

Its bs and the unions are at the heart of the problem. They did a great service at one point in history. That point is over and I pray to god so are the unions.

Teachers unions are my least favorite.

A after thought of Chris' statement. There are other groups who are blood in blood out for life, they are called gangs..


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Brickie said:


> Only about 15% of this country's construction workforce is union. Much less in southern states like yours. Unemployment rate in this country for construction workers is around 13.5%. Just by the fact that the percentage of unionized construction workers is so low in TX, who do you think has the most people on government assistance, union or non union??
> 
> TX is actually one of the worst states to be in construction as an employee. The flood of illegal workers. Unions do what they can to combat that. Keeping the work in American hands. TX also does not require WC insurance, who picks up the tab for workers hurt if there is not a WC policy in place? Taxpayers. There are also studies that show almost half of all construction workers in TX live below the state poverty level. Which in TX is by far mostly non union guys.




I have WC, my hands are covered. My men also make a good wage, get paid holidays and 5 days vacation, as well as a company vehicle to use at work. None are on assistance. We work all year. I may be the exception but I dont have my hand out to anyone for anything, I take care of me and mine.

As far as a bad place to work? I dont think so. I always made a living when working for others. As far as you assuming that I would ask the tax payers to pay my medical bills when I didnt have insurance, wrong again. I paid my medical bills. Worst were broken bones, I paid within a year. 

My brothers insurance doesnt cover maternity, he is paying $6,000 before the kid is born on those horrible wages he is paid competing against illegal aliens.

I have worked here my whole life, competing against illegals is like competing against a hack, I dont do it and never have, (other than being a ditch digger when I started out) I educated my self in my trade and no one ever said "well I only pay julio $10 an hour".


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## Ron_ (Dec 31, 2012)

All I can say is that when I was part of a union, I did not enjoy it. Good luck with your findings.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Corporate wellfare? Seriously? I work for the haves. Unions are run by thugs who have no place in the modern workforce.
> 
> As for cheering for our country? The direction this country is going is disgusting. Im sick to death that the have nots as you call them (moochers) out number the producers. Im not a genius but its pretty simple economics that china cannot loan us enough money to bail out all the single mothers with 14 kids and 14 baby dadies and no plan on getting a job.
> 
> ...


What do you need some examples of corporate welfare? You probably do not even have to leave your own town to find corporations that are on the government dole. Listen I said already once that you have to be nuts to think that either side of the aisle in Washington has your best interest in mind if you are a middle class citizen. I am not defending Democrats in any way. But YOU are defending the idiots who give away TRILLIONS of dollars of taxpayer money to corporations. They are more deserving then "the single mothers with 14 kids and 14 baby dadies and no plan on getting a job."? NEITHER one should be able to drain taxpayer funds!!

What is it that you think the unions of the past did that was a great service? Helped flourish a strong middle class? Which now that unions are losing strength is disappearing. Fought for and won may workplace safety rules? Which now are enforced with taxpayer money, instead of the industry that those laws govern. Gave men more time with their families? How many threads are on this site with guys bragging about working 12 hour days? Do you think they actually want to work 12 hour days, or is more to save face because in order to provide for their family it takes 12 hour days?


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Jaws said:


> I have WC, my hands are covered. My men also make a good wage, get paid holidays and 5 days vacation, as well as a company vehicle to use at work. None are on assistance. We work all year. I may be the exception but I dont have my hand out to anyone for anything, I take care of me and mine.
> 
> As far as a bad place to work? I dont think so. I always made a living when working for others. As far as you assuming that I would ask the tax payers to pay my medical bills when I didnt have insurance, wrong again. I paid my medical bills. Worst were broken bones, I paid within a year.
> 
> ...



If what you say is true, I applaud you on being able to and wanting to be a good, responsible employer. But the facts are the facts. You are not the norm, the numbers do not lie. 

Also when you didn't have health insurance, what would have happened if you got cancer or HIV? You would not have been able to pay for that. You were taking a risk. But ultimately a good portion of the risk you took was assumed by taxpayers. Unless your answer to that is to roll over and die.

Your brother is a good example. I am not sure what he does for a living, but is he not "worthy" of decent medical insurance? Is the ditch digger not "worthy"? This is kind of a moot point because our society deems them as "worthy". By the government picking up the tab of medical care and not letting people die in the street. Shouldn't the industry these people work in either provide insurance or enough in wages for the employee to purchase insurance?


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

chris klee said:


> Rizzo / Diamond State Masonry is set up this way.
> I know a hvac that way too.


Rizzo is the shop I was thinking of.


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