# Subcontractor workers comp



## Paint pros (Jun 20, 2012)

Hey. Any body know if in the near future sub contractors will have to have workers comp?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Sub contractors should have their own WC. Sub contractors are just contractors.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

If you have employees, you should have work comp--whether you're a GC or a sub makes no difference.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

In Canada yes. After Dec 31 2012, all contacrtors/subcontratcors etc.. will need to be registered under WSIB (workplace safety and Ins Board)regardless of whether you have employees or not. I don't like it. in Canada it is a private company that you are REQUIRED to register with. B$llsh!t if you ask me. I'm still not certain if that means that I will have to pay for premiums for myself as well as employees or it only means I would need to be registered even if I had no employees. Currently I could optionally cover myself (for 12.5% not sure about profit since I'm not incorporated)


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Dom-mas, you will be required (as I understand) that you must have WSIB and you must have coverage for yourself if you are on site. One person in the company can be exempt (could be you) provided they are never on site, occasional visits are permitted, but very occasional and even more rare.

My wife owns our company, currently I am an employee and pay the 8.80 per hundred on myself. So currently we meet the new regulations as she has no WSIB coverage on herself, but she may come to the site 3-4 times a year if she is traveling with me for the day, but even at that she never enters the fenced work area and observes from a far


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm basically a one man show. Currently I have a labourer (covered by WSIB at 12.5 % according to my trade). i guess in the new year I'll be covering myself as well


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

US federal law say if there are 3 or more workers. Many states are more restrictive. My state says WC is required if you have any employees or ever hire an assistant/sub. 

As a GC, I am required to cover all subs that don't have it (one-man shows). The insurer charges me the same rate as the sub would pay but charges me on the full amount of the invoice, labor, materials, profit, and overhead. When I hire subs without insurance (rare but it happens) I provide the materials and the sub's price reflects the lack of insurance.


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## mnjconstruction (Oct 5, 2008)

Holy you guys are lucky, those are low rates for wc.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

thom said:


> US federal law say if there are 3 or more workers. Many states are more restrictive. My state says WC is required if you have any employees or ever hire an assistant/sub.
> 
> As a GC, I am required to cover all subs that don't have it (one-man shows). The insurer charges me the same rate as the sub would pay but charges me on the full amount of the invoice, labor, materials, profit, and overhead. When I hire subs without insurance (rare but it happens) I provide the materials and the sub's price reflects the lack of insurance.


In Ont there is a bunch of paperwork to go through when you do not have a WSIB # and you are a sole proprietor or partnership. You answer a bunch of questions and show past invoices and materials purchased etc...Then WSIB makes a determination of whether the GC has to cover you or not. You're supposed to do it for each contractor you work for. A pain in the butt but at least no ones paying for something they shouldn't be.


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## mnjconstruction (Oct 5, 2008)

Ive never understood why everyone doesnt have workmans comp anyway. its part of being in buisness. just like vehicles, gas, tools, insurances etc got to have it all! I wouldn't start a car dealership and not have any cars to sell.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

If it is legal where you are, you should not carry workers comp, but you should carry a disability policy. Wc just covers you under working conditions, whereas disability covers you all the time. 

Thats what my insurance guy told me at least.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

In Ont if you don't have any employees you can't get a WSIB #. I guess you could incorporate and make yourself an employee but I have no desire for that since as Kent Whitten says, i prefer to have disability ins. it's moot for me now because i do have an employee and in the new year I'll have to have it for myself anyway.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

dom-mas said:


> In Ont if you don't have any employees you can't get a WSIB #. I


Actually yes you can. When you fill out the independent contractors survey the results come back to you with a number, that'd your WSIB number. That's what I was using for a few years when it was just me, and it stayed the same when I got employees. 

WSIB rep is actually coming to see me next week at the shop to help make sure I'm doing everything right. I have many questions for them.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

GregS said:


> Actually yes you can. When you fill out the independent contractors survey the results come back to you with a number, that'd your WSIB number. That's what I was using for a few years when it was just me, and it stayed the same when I got employees.
> 
> WSIB rep is actually coming to see me next week at the shop to help make sure I'm doing everything right. I have many questions for them.


Weird, when i talked to them i specifically said that i was tired of filling in the stupid questionnaire, can i just get a number? The girl I talked to said WSIB was to protect employees who get hurt at work, if i didn't have employees I was fubared


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## allcityexterior (Jan 20, 2012)

Kent Whitten said:


> If it is legal where you are, you should not carry workers comp, but you should carry a disability policy. Wc just covers you under working conditions, whereas disability covers you all the time.
> 
> Thats what my insurance guy told me at least.


Good idea for the owner-who is not required to have WC but works on the tools.

__________________________________
Roofing Madison 
Siding Madison 
Madison Roofing


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

dom-mas said:


> Weird, when i talked to them i specifically said that i was tired of filling in the stupid questionnaire, can i just get a number? The girl I talked to said WSIB was to protect employees who get hurt at work, if i didn't have employees I was fubared


May as well just get it then.

If you are the principal then you do not have to get it on yourself. If you have 0 employees then your payroll for the period is $0 and your remittance is $0.

You will have to get it next year regardless.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

The rules are different in each state. In Washington it is very strange, a GC does not have to have it if he's the only one doing the work. But if he opts to have workers comp for himself, then he has to abide by all of the state safety laws. 

If it's a sub-contractor working for a GC and the licensed sub is the only one doing the work, no employees, and the GC starts giving his sub orders. Then the state can say "he's an employee, not a sub", and they will want you to pay workers comp for that sub. Which I don't like and I don't know how far they enforce that, but those are the laws in Washington.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

GregS said:


> May as well just get it then.
> 
> If you are the principal then you do not have to get it on yourself. If you have 0 employees then your payroll for the period is $0 and your remittance is $0.
> 
> You will have to get it next year regardless.


Right, but when the lady asked me my employees name and I replied that I didn't have an employee, she said I couldn't get a number and would have to keep filling out the questionnaire (she suggested just photocopying it and giving each different contractor a copy).


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## Astrix (Feb 23, 2009)

Work Comp rules vary depending on what state or province you are in. My following comments relate to *Ontario only *and I see that several of my Ontario neighbours :smile: have posted to this thread so hopefully this info will be helpful to them.

The purpose of WSIB is to ensure that EMPLOYEES are protected. Therefore, if you have no employees, then you don't get a registration number. If you have employees that you have to cover, then you are also given the option of adding yourself (owner). If you have no employees then WSIB does not apply to you; and you have to go and get your own personal disability insurance from a private AD&D insurer. 

If you had employees and now have none, your WSIB account goes dormant, but your # sticks with you and can be re-activated again if you are required to carry WSIB cover in the future.

The new Bill 119 that is coming into force at the end of 2012 is going to require commercial contractors and new residential contractors to be registered with WSIB, and to cover themselves as owner even if they have no employees. (Previously, these owners didn't get a WSIB # and had to get themselves personally covered through private insurance.)

Home renovators will still be exempt as long as they have no employees and all work is done by registered sub-contractors. Contracts have to be direct with individual homeowners and not through another contractor. The owner of the home renovation company cannot go on site. 

Apparently, they are still looking at clarifying what if the owner usually never goes on site to do work but may have to step in to help get work done if behind schedule or a subbed worker calls in sick. 

Everyone who uses subs is required to make sure you have proper clearance certificates from all of them. Did you know that you can check out potential subs on the WSIB website? All you need is their name. Also, you can even request the clearance certificates yourself if you have the sub's WSIB #. So rather than waiting for your subs to get you the proper cert, just have them give you their WSIB # at the time you sub-contract with them, and then order the cert yourself.

Webpage is here: Ontario eClearance

Hoping you find this helpful.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Astrix said:


> Home renovators will still be exempt as long as they have no employees and all work is done by registered sub-contractors. Contracts have to be direct with individual homeowners and not through another contractor. The owner of the home renovation company cannot go on site.


I don't have a dog in the fight so I'm just asking out of curiousity.

How do you keep control of a project if you never go on site? Or does this mean, you just can't do the physical labor?


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## Astrix (Feb 23, 2009)

Good question. Even WSIB doesn't have an answer yet. (Gotta love government-run institutions!)

From the April 2012 "Canadian Contractor Magazine":


> QUESTION: So when times are busy or when a partner is on holidays we have to stay off the site or fudge our records and hope we don’t get hurt. Is that how you would read this?
> 
> WSIB ANSWER: We’re currently working on policies to address this concern. More details will be released soon.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

You guys do realize that wages are what WSIB rates are payable on and bonuses paid upon job completion for well done work are not


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

I had my meeting with WSIB today.

Apparently MOL is going to be taking over a whole lot of everything in the new year and things are going to change.

One thing of concern is that not only will they be there to police, but also to help prevent. WSIB rep pointed out this may be concerning because if MOL is showing up to assist you with complying, does that also mean they can fine you for any violations they may find in the process?

There's a new MOL poster that needs to be posted in your workplace, and this will become madatory in the new year. I haven't confirmed this is it, waiting for confirmation. http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/hs/pdf/poster_prevention.pdf

As mentioned above, everyone in construction will be required to be covered under WSIB in the new year.

Health and Safety procedures manual written by the employer specific to the job will eventually be required. She gave me a copy of one from another company that I can modify to suit our company. I've asked if I could give it out to others (let me know if you want one)

Everyone who works for you has to be covered under the same rate number. So even if you have some pretty girl sitting in the office with high heels who will never venture onto a job site, they would still be under the same classification as those who do.

If you hire someone to work on your home and they are not covered with WSIB, they can sue you.


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## Astrix (Feb 23, 2009)

GregS said:


> Everyone who works for you has to be covered under the same rate number. So even if you have some pretty girl sitting in the office with high heels who will never venture onto a job site, they would still be under the same classification as those who do.


I heard that they are getting rid of the rate classifications on a per employee basis. Instead, they are coming up with something called sectoral groups which will be based on your business as a whole.

As you know the old way is to have as many different rate classifications as needed: clerical, electrical, plumbing, roofing, supervisory, etc., then the number of employees you have in each class is multiplied by the appropriate rate; then your experience modification factor is applied, plus any other mod factors. You need a calculator and a sharp pencil with an eraser to figure out the premiums and when workers get hired and fired or change their work duties, then the calculation has to be recalculated which is why there are so many audits and premium adjustments. 

They say that the new sectoral group method is going to make premium calculation easier and fairer. I don’t have an opinion on that and I suppose we’ll have to wait and see how the actuarial theory works once the reality sets in come 2013.

From Ontario WSIB Funding Fairness Report:


> 5-1.4 To avoid the possibility of small firms being marginalized within sectoral groups, or having their rates effectively determined by costs attributable to dominant firms in their sector, the WSIB should also investigate the possibility of creating a separate small business sector, or alternatively of establishing a standard rate for small businesses within each sector.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> You guys do realize that wages are what WSIB rates are payable on and bonuses paid upon job completion for well done work are not


Hmm minimum wage is $10, but i could give myself a pretty hefty bonus at the end of each job. Sounds good.

Sounds complicated too. i think my rates are going to go up by 12.5% in the new year, if not for the WSIB then for the aggro


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

GregS said:


> There's a new MOL poster that needs to be posted in your workplace, and this will become madatory in the new year. I haven't confirmed this is it, waiting for confirmation. http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/hs/pdf/poster_prevention.pdf


is that only on jobs that require a notice of project?


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## VAviaCo (Sep 3, 2008)

In Virginia, you don't have to carry comp unless you have more than 2 employees, counting yourself. I have just myself and don't carry it. My regular health plan covers me 24/7.

But if I hire myself out as a sub, then the GC's comp covers me unless I have my own. So GC's say you must have a comp policy to work as a sub.

The part I don't understand is that my insurance company (I carry liability) can write a "comp waiver" for $750/year that will let me work as a sub anywhere and indemnifies the GC, but pays me nothing if I get hurt. 

Sounds like a racket to me.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

dom-mas said:


> is that only on jobs that require a notice of project?


You know all jobs require notice of project


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

dom-mas said:


> is that only on jobs that require a notice of project?


That's for any job in any industry. Not specific to construction.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> You know all jobs require notice of project


Only those over 10k, or a few other factors such as height, tunnelling etc..


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

GregS said:


> That's for any job in any industry. Not specific to construction.


I only work in construction. I don't think my pizza delivery has to make up a notice of project before sending me out a pizza. Biut then again, I've never worked in the pizza sector


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

dom-mas said:


> I only work in construction. I don't think my pizza delivery has to make up a notice of project before sending me out a pizza. Biut then again, I've never worked in the pizza sector


Eh? You asked me if that posted need to be only for jobs with notice of project.

I said it needs to be posted at every place of employment anywhere, construction or otherwise.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Sorry I was a little:drink: last night. I understand your post better now


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