# Should ContractorTalk.com allow Vendor, Service Provider, and Manufacturers?



## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

OK, we've discussed this before (*[Community Discussion] Review of our Rules (Who Can Join & Advertising Rules)*) but this issue keeps coming up so I think it's time to address the question once again.

ContractorTalk.com has always been a pros only site meaning we do not allow homeowners asking how to questions. If you are a member here it is with the understanding that you make your living doing contracting work or work full time in the industry in some way. The question here is, what does being "In The Industry" mean?

For example, is someone who runs a store that services pros in the industry? How about a rep from Dewalt who wants to support their product? Business coaches? SEO and website guys? The list goes on but these are all people who work directly with pros but aren't necessarily in the field. 

Currently our rules aren't really clear as to what a "Pro" is and therefore we have some vendors on this site but it's not clear what they can and can't do. Our ad rules are pretty clear that they can't self promote in the threads but can they have a signature? These issues are often over looked and then dealt with in waves and it tends to cause confusion.

*Why would we want vendors, service providers, and manufacturers on the site?* Well, if you have a question with your website do you want another contractor answering the question or someone who does that for a living? If you have a product question wouldn't you want a vendor who sells it or the manufacturer to give you advice on it? I think vendors, service providers, and manufacturers can add value to the conversation as long as they aren't pushy sales people.

*What are the negatives? *Well, a lot of people are sales people by nature and therefore tend to push their products. We will set up some firm rules that prohibit self promotion in the posts but it's bound to happen every now and then and then we will have to take action. 
In order to encourage vendors to help out on the site we probably will allow a signature with a link to their company. 

*So, what's the question?*
I want to hear from you guys if you want this to happen or not. I personally think if we set up the right set of rules and enforce them well that vendors, service providers, and manufacturers can add a lot to the site and will make this place better. What do you think and want? *Should ContractorTalk.com allow Vendor, Service Provider, and Manufacturers?

**
Here's an example of what we do on our sister site www.ElectricianTalk.com and it's worked well.*


> Some members of Electrician Talk may work for or own a company the sells tools, equipment, supplies, or other electrical related products and services. It is natural to want to advertise your product and/or services on this site. However, in order to create a community that is not continuously filtering through unwanted solicitations the administrators will enforce firm rules in regards to advertising.
> 
> *What advertising is allowed?*
> We allow you to create a signature file found here: http://www.electriciantalk.com/profi...=editsignature
> ...


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## mshoward (Jan 7, 2010)

I know I am a relative newbie here, but I've learned a whole lot from the time I've spent browsing these forums. I think you could increase that knowledge base by allowing vendors, manufacturers, etc. on here. I also agree that you need a fairly strict set of rules so the forums are not overcome with people trying to sell there stuff. Overall, I think its a good idea...theres my $.02


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

I can see good and bad to it. It seems that when a CT user would complain about a product's warranty or service one of the reps will chime in that it's the users fault, bad install etc. and we will have a 10 page pi**ing contest as to what is going on. There have been some good posts like the laser screed and the rep offering to make contact etc. Then there was the debacle of the wine cooler unit. Anyway I guess my take would be to leave it like it is unless you're going to have them come aboard & have the mods hold a tight set of reins.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Although they can offer some solid information the shame is they will always sway that info for self promotion. The way it is now they can get real world opinions by whos installing the product like it or not.


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

griz said:


> Anyway I guess my take would be to leave it like it is


There's really no way to leave it like it is. We either officially allow them or officially ban them. Up until now we've let some people get by with it when we like their posts and others we don't allow. That's not a great way to run a site.


griz said:


> unless you're going to have them come aboard & have the mods hold a tight set of reins.


That would be the goal yes. A firm set of rules for vendors to abide by or get banned. No matter what we aren't going to let vendors over run the site. It's more a question if we should officially allow them and give them a signature link in exchange for providing info.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

How about a separate section of the web-site, similar to the hard-hat section that only allows members in, that could included vendors promoting their products. 

There are times that a question is posed that could be answered better by manufacturers. I would even be in favor of letting them post ads for their products (you can charge them for it if you want). Some products, especially new ones, need a bit of education. This might be a good place for that.


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

With all due respect, since you asked...

I think anyone who provides a "service" in/to the industry is a candidate for membership here.

Vendors/Manufacturers don't provide a service, but rather a product that is tangible. They could very little actual interest in the things that make this site such a great community to begin with, their real interest lies behind the product that they are selling and not so much as the knowledge, wisdom, or experience of being a "contractor".

SEO/Website guys/Insurance guys/etc are essentially "service" providers and therefore contribute to the conversations in the forum because they bring their relevant knowledge/experience to the place.

I think if vendors/manufacturers want to become in any way a part of this forum...then they can kindly purchase some ad space on the top and right sides of the window :thumbsup:


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

Here's an example of the ad rules we run on some of the trade sites and it seems to work well.



> Some members of Electrician Talk may work for or own a company the sells tools, equipment, supplies, or other electrical related products and services. It is natural to want to advertise your product and/or services on this site. However, in order to create a community that is not continuously filtering through unwanted solicitations the administrators will enforce firm rules in regards to advertising.
> 
> *What advertising is allowed?*
> We allow you to create a signature file found here: http://www.electriciantalk.com/profile.php?do=editsignature
> ...


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

The few vendors who have posted here to discuss/defend there product did so with class.
I think it has enough pros to warrent a "trial period". We make our living off the tools/services they provide, so why not have a direct conduit to them.
Seems like a good idea. However, If they start "selling" nip it in the bud.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

> Some members of Electrician Talk may work for or own a company the sells tools, equipment, supplies, or other electrical related products and services. It is natural to want to advertise your product and/or services on this site. However, in order to create a community that is not continuously filtering through unwanted solicitations the administrators will enforce firm rules in regards to advertising.
> 
> *What advertising is allowed?*
> We allow you to create a signature file found here: http://www.electriciantalk.com/profi...=editsignature
> ...


 
Nathan,
Appears that this approach will work. Just don't want to see this site get trashed up. I appreciate all you guys do to keep it running first class.
THANK YOU, Griz:thumbsup::clap:


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Just as Griz said, sometimes if you have a bad product or a bad warranty you are going to get the reaming of your life from the members here. If they can take it so be it. No crybabies
They should be in their own section though.


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

TimNJ said:


> They should be in their own section though.


Own section for what though? We aren't going to allow any self promotion type posts so I'm not sure what they would post there.
If people have a desire to get offers from vendors that's a different issue but we are just talking about if they are allowed to join and have a signature link... they WONT be allowed to self promote in the posts.


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## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

Absolutely positively yes.

My business is nothing without good suppliers. It's all about relationships. If I can build or at least begin a relationship here in a fraction of the time it takes to form one in the "real" world, then I am a happy, happy man. And a happy Chris is generally a wealthy Chris.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

OK. I'm not against them promoting products if they are in a seperate section. It may be beneficial to know about new products and changes first. The members of this site pretty much represent the "Crem de la Crem" in professionalism and craftsmanship and that's who the vendors should be marketing to.
I also think it would be OK if they are allowed to chime in regular posts.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

Chris G said:


> Absolutely positively yes.
> 
> My business is nothing without good suppliers. It's all about relationships. If I can build or at least begin a relationship here in a fraction of the time it takes to form one in the "real" world, then I am a happy, happy man. And a happy Chris is generally a wealthy Chris.


I agree wholeheartedly.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

I belong to a forum where we are (almost)all Mustang owners. Advertising is allowed only by purchasing a banner add. 
In the forums themselves, the advertisers are NOT allowed to offer their goods and services by posting in a thread or even answer a question unless SPECIFFICALLY asked by a poster. For example, if someone askes: what's a good composite, a vendor cannot answer "mine is!". However, if the same poster says "hey, is Trex any good?" then the vendor selling Trex can answer the question. However another vendor selling a competing product IS NOT allowed to get into a product debate with the first vendor.
On top of that, a "private" poster is not allowed to debate the merits of an individual vendor, or invite comparisons, and absolutely no "vendor bashing" is allowed.
You cannot say, for example, "Hey, I used Trex and it's crap", if Trex is a sponsor/vendor. You can however, say, "hey, I used Willywood and it's lousy", assuming Willywood is not a vendor/sponsor.
It means a bit more monitoring by the site owners, but it keeps the board healthy.
Personally, if someonw wants to mention their product/service in their signature, then why not?
For those interested, my forum is GTAMC.com. (Gtreater Toronto Area Mustang Club). We have over 8000 members.


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## Trim40 (Jan 27, 2009)

I lurk on a 4x4 forum that has rules similar advertising rules as here. They have a "vendor showcase" section that allows businesses to advertise sales, close outs and what not. 
I think they should have a section to allow them to show us new products or services or answer questions. 
I'm sure the membership will speak out if it gets out of control.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Just a thought, and I don't know if the forum software has this type of capability:

Since posters are supposed to read the rules when registering, and rarely do, I think this might take some extra moderation and the regulars being vigilant in reporting offenders, but here goes;

Two "categories" of registration. Vendors and everyone else. 

A vendor would be described as someone who sells products directly to contractors whether it be internet/seo services, tangible products, tools, advertising, etc.

A vendor would have to register that they are an authorized agent of (for example Dewalt), and poster must prove to the mods or administrator that they are authorized by the company via a link to their main website. All vendors to have their "trade" listed as "Dewalt Representative" in bold red color with only the Dewalt logo acceptable as an avatar so we ALL know who we're dealing with on every single post. 

Smaller vendors such as small seo consultants etc. would go through the same process and have the same avatar and trade listing.

Any attempt to sell a product or service to another poster would need to be reported.


For something like this to be effective would take some effort on the part of the regulars to report the people who will try to fly under the radar for awhile. Mac's plea to get rid of tree fiddy was met with open arms, and has been virtually eliminated. The same would occur here should someone start hawking their wares. I think we're pretty good about reporting posts that violate the rules to the mods.

My personal opinion is that the posters in question that are here for the right reasons are well respected and I personally appreciate their input and would not like to see some of the good ones here booted out because of all the spammers.

By this time tomorrow *I will myself* have thought of 10 reasons that what I just typed won't be feasible, but I'm just throwing out an idea.

If there is no middle ground here, then my vote unfortunately would be to ban them even though it would be a loss for all of us.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Definitely yes. In this environment, any vendor's best advertising is not going to consist of "Buy my stuff!"--rather, insight into the products, mention of new products, technical support if they're so minded, and problem resolution as well.

The caveat would be that any rep is subject to the same moderation rules as anyone else--e.g., blatant advertising or just being a general doofus gets 'em shut down.

We are ostensibly here to exchange information about our trades (aside from the water cooler factor). Manufacturers and vendors have the potential to greatly increase and clarify the information available.


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## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

Some ideas to potentially help on this subject;

1) They can not start a new thread without moderator approval, they can only comment on threads initiated by contractor-members. This should keep the subject matter more relevent to "OUR" agenda.

2) Add a Directory of companies, and the member names that represent that company, so we can direct our questions appropriately, maybe even a catagory for thread directed to a specific Mfg/Vendor.

3) The Manufacturer or Vendor is somewhat accountable for statements regarding accuracy.

4) The Manufacturer or Vendor must follow through with commitments that it makes on these forums.

5) Full contact info, publically viewable, including work phone, and work email.

I think there is value in this.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

If you decide to try to call back the ones who have already recently been banned, please tell them I'm sorry. :laughing:


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

Don't worry... I gave them your cell phone number


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## Stforeman (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm all for the allowance of vendors to the site.

I'm a welder by trade. We do structural welding as well as ladder racks and handrails. A few members of the site have purchased my racks so I joined to help give knowledge about my products.

I've tried several times to contact an administrator through the "advertise" link, but never got a response.

Some examples of why I believe for vendors should be allowed:

1) It would be great if there was a "Ryder Racks" thread where people can post their questions about my product and I or anybody else could answer them. The thread could also be used for the posting of new photos for when a contractor buys a ryder rack, etc.

2) We just recently designed an aluminum saw horse. I've shown the product to several local contractors and they all were impressed. It would be convenient if we were able to post a thread about our new products to help spread awareness, get feedback, and suggestions.

I'm all for a vendor section and the allowance for vendors to post replies to questions about the topics they specialize in. When this gets approved, I'll be the first to sign up.

Thanks,


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## mesurtwice (Mar 9, 2010)

Please, no commercials. Let the tv do that.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 26, 2008)

I think having a section where contractors can ask questions of vendors would be best. I've seen this used with success on other forums. I believe letting the suppliers, outside industry people, etc. post generally with the contractors isn't the worst thing, but it waters down what makes this site so great. When I post a question about marketing for example, the info that I can collect from other pros is invaluable. When marketing "guys" are able to post as well, it really CAN distort the truth and dillute the perspective that I was looking for. Don't get me wrong, there have been some very informative posts by these other guys, but even if they aren't blatantly self-promoting, they are still biased. It is just human nature. I'd also envision having threads where the majority of the responses are coming from these "outside industry" guys and lessening the voice that we pros have with each other. I think that there is a place for these guys, I just think that opening the gates will negatively effect the overall quality of the board.. Just my $.02


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## Mrmac204 (Dec 27, 2006)

I voted yes also- with reservations. I think though that the moderators will be watching this closely, so as to try to get everyone to get along.

I would hope that a vendor would not dominate a thread just for the sake of posting- many many folks here post really great ideas based upon their experience - I'd hate to see that diminish.

Also would not be happy if suddenly I was to get a whole lot of un-wanted emails advertising stuff.

all in all though, its probably a good idea - it can further our knowledge about new products etc.


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## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

I'm sure *Nathan *and the rest will keep them in line, having them participate in CT should be helpful to all of us (well most of us) I think it will be a win win for both sides.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 26, 2008)

This thread is a perfect illustration of why "service providers" should have there own section, and not be allowed to post in general discussions. http://www.contractortalk.com/f12/footbridge-media-amazing-74679/ .... Here you have several contractors giving honest opinions on a vendor (who happens to be a site sponsor), then you get some dufus who "hosts contractor sites" come in and basically accuse them of being a lead service! This is the type of thing that seems to be increasing here, and I fear that formally "legitimizing" these guys will make things worse.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 26, 2008)

... One more thing that I'd like to add on this topic is how the site sponors may percieve this. Why would someone pay to sponsor the site when the can sign up for free and get as much or more exposure? It is just bad business. If anything, perhaps allow only site sponsors to have free reign, while non-paying service providers are relegated to one area... Just an idea.


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## garabar (Mar 11, 2010)

Why not, as long as it is a separate part of the site. Might give some smaller vendors exposure they need.


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## Aiken Colon (Jul 14, 2008)

I guess I should reply, seeing as how that is our signature (AC Tool Supply) on ElectricianTalk.com that Nathan used as an example. While he have been "reigned in" on ContractorTalk regarding our posts on product, I think that Nathan has allowed our signature to remain for a several different reasons:

1. We came to Nathan before signing up and asked for permission to become and post as a member.

2. We became a Sponsor of both ElectricianTalk and ContractorTalk, with purchased ad space (see thermal imager ad, top right :thumbsup and have continued to keep our ad running for approx. 2+ years now, in support of both of these forums.

3. We have given away free tools, held reviews on product and engaged the audience regarding products and their direct opinions.

4. We have always respected the thoughts and opinions of every member, whether they bashed product or praised it.

These reasons are just a few. I feel that all vendors should have to make a "pledge" in support of the forum in order to be able to have access to the wealth of information here. I am *FOR* allowing vendors to become members. In making their "contributions", they'll only make this forum a stronger community by way of more moderation capabilites. 

Maybe Nathan could create a Member Title like "*Vendor*" that would show under the user name of such a member. Then their posted content could be monitored at a different level to make sure they are participating in a productive manner.

We would love to be able to have, say.... a NEW PRODUCT board! Every week we get the Dewalt, Bosch, Atlas Copco reps in our warehouse with new lasers and caulk guns and all kinds of stuff. 

I like the idea that Nathan put this issue up for you guys' to poll and converse on. Truly a "for members" forum.


Sincerely,

Chris Mayes, President
AC Tool Supply, Inc.
(ignore flagrant signature) :whistling


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> The trouble is going to come from all the small operators, the web guys, the SEO guys, the print shops, the post card mailers, all the small bottom feeders, those guys will be the ones pimping, the major manufacturers have a much different agenda and a lot different person associated with them.



Absolutely! They are already here and I have complained about them in the past. They may not actually be promoting themselves in their posts (unless you call stuff like "I'm working with a client on such and such project and we are already seeing great results" promotion (I do, personally)) but the implication is always there.

Why else would they be here?


Happy to see manufacturers here, by the way, but not the people referred to above. If the poll had divided the two types I would have voted yes on the manufacturers and no on the others.


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## Aiken Colon (Jul 14, 2008)

john elliott said:


> Absolutely! They are already here and I have complained about them in the past. They may not actually be promoting themselves in their posts (unless you call stuff like "I'm working with a client on such and such project and we are already seeing great results" promotion (I do, personally)) but the implication is always there.
> 
> Why else would they be here?
> 
> ...


And on that note you would have to break that down a little further. Some vendors are only interested in their exact product (service). For example; printing, SEO, web site design, etc. Then you have other vendors that deal with several manufactures. So if you guys are constantly buying widgets and some vendor sells widgets from 7 different manufactures of those widgets, I would think the vendors opinion would actually be more non-bias than the manufacture of just one of the widgets. As already mentioned in this thread, that vendor can also relay feedback back to the manufacture as to what improvements need/could be made to a specific product.

It really gets complex as to what is spam and what is informative. I know that if I answer a question on here about say, construction lasers, and I attach a link to a picture of the product, I am obviously going to attach a picture from my own site. 

I feel the pain of the decision in this matter. We run a message board that is focused toward energy auditors and retro-fit contractors. I cannot image trying to keep on top of every post on a board as large as this one.

One other issue I could see, is the what is a site sponsor? Is it GMC with their ad on the right hand side of the screen, or us because we have one in the upper right hand side of your screen? Or is it anyone that puts www.contractortalk.com in to their adsense campaign. (2x2 ad below the bottom post). Right now that ad on my screen is reliableremodeler.com. I just did a post over at electricianstalk and it was a trade show company (it picks up on the words used in the posts). So the solution of a vendor buying ad space or paying fees gets a little touchy. Our ad is a set price, whereas the adsense ad is by the click. If an adsense ad got a ton of clicks, it could technically be more expensive than a display ad. 

JJ


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Late picking this up, but to add my .02, I am more regular at electrician talk. There is at least one mfg. that has posted some relavant and interesting information. I asked in a thread what company he worked for, and he PM'd me to answer. I am sure there will be good and bad, but I think manufacturers in particular might have some things to lend to a discussion.

Furthermore, they might learn from listening to field experience. Who among us has not had to install something that someone in kahkis in an office dreamed up without ever being in the field.


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## HomeSealed (Jan 26, 2008)

Okay, I totally see where ACTool is coming from. There has to be some kind of way to distinguish guys like him from all the jags peddling advice on marketing, etc. Seriously, have you read any of the threads in the marketing section lately? It used to be a source of invaluable information where contractors could share with each other what works and what doesn't... Now it reads like an online book store. Every thread is being overrun by "marketing experts" giving a cliche blurb of advice and trying to peddle their book, website, or service... It is really getting out of hand IMHO.


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## Darth Paul (Mar 24, 2010)

I think we can only benefit from hearing about other people's services, but there should be a place for it, that way you don't get spammers or people trying to work their products into conversations. people can decide whether or not to enter a "sales" area for goods & services.


But what do I know I just got here!


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

Well if it is decided to let them in they should provide us with a 25% discount on all products,forever.:shifty:


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## Darth Paul (Mar 24, 2010)

... but then again, what will it do for paid advertising? 
(assuming the banners are all paid for and not ppc)


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## Aiken Colon (Jul 14, 2008)

They are both PPC and paid for Paul. The ones that says Ads by Google are adsense (PPC), in one form or another (text or display). 

Funny name by the way.

JJ


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## Five Arrows (Jan 30, 2010)

*Need to be disclosed on their ID*

I don't mind vendors. We all need them. I do mind it if someone poses like a user who has found this great........ fill in the blank. They need to be identified in their side bar ID as a Rep for Dewalt, or manager for service magic etc. If they try to pull a fast one it is banned for life. One warning and then they are gone.

As long as it is disclosed they should get to toss in their two cents.


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