# tired of tire kickers



## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

Hi 
do most of you guys who have been in business a long time 
charge for estimates ? i realize for large jobs this is a process and you have to get paid for all that work ,but i am a one man show who started on my own last june (2011) and do mostly smaller interior jobs
i advertise for home improvement and also Handyman services 
I am an all around tradesman (except plumbing and electrical ) . so my projects vary quite a bit 
well my question is when you were smaller and starting out did you still charge for estimates ? 
i find that by the time ive gone to look at a job spent time with the homeowner ,figured out my materials and labor expenses ect i am usually a few hours into it , and the way things are in my local economy everyone is price shopping  so I want to start charging a fee for estimates and then if i sign the job that gets deducted from the price :whistling or is that added  anyway did you get alot of slack when and if you implemented this fee ?
P.S this doesnt apply to the handy man services because that is already a minimum charge then hourly from there so just for the bid jobs 
thanks in advance for any advice 
regards 
Todd


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## Ohio painter (Dec 4, 2011)

I have been on my own now for 8 years and I still do not charge for estimates. The reality is that potential customers (residential anyway) expect a free estimate and I accept that it is the market I compete in.

With experience I find that the estimating part of the job gets easier. 

I have thought about tracking how much time I spend doing estimates, say over a month, or 3 months or perhaps 6 months and then total up that time and put a price on it. That price is then easy enough to divide into your overhead, no different than gasoline, insurance etc etc and then it gets priced as part of every job. 
I have not done it yet but keep thinking about it.


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

when you figure it out call me i will pay you 10% of my estimates.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Tell them you charge $1 to come out. If they aren't willing to pony up a buck they aren't your clients. Worked for me whenever I got a cold call. Referrals I treat differently.


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## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

i wish !!
i just don`see it .

if its taking too much of your time ( which happens to me alot ) try to schedule certain days . or see if you can see them after work or as early as possible ( either extreme) so you can still get a days work done besides.
yeah i end up having to drive sometimes an hour from where i`m working too , end its sometimes frustrating 
but once you get your estimating to the right numbers , and if you have a good way with people , you should get most of the jobs , and its worth it 

you can screen them a bit on the phone. make small talk , and most times they`ll end up telling you what they want or what type of people they are.

"what type of work are you looking to get done"?
if they tell me a door ,for instance , i`ll ask what type, if i get enough info , i can let them know "generally this type of job runs about $......" 
i try to find out what area of town ( if you know your town , you will know if its a low income or an upper-income area . this matters if you feel you cater to a certain group more than others.
if you talk a bit , their guard goes down , and they`ll talk to you like somone who needs info.if you give them good info , they already feel your vested and care about them , that sells big time.try to have a nice conversation on the phone . 



they might let it slip that they have had 3 or 4 guys out already . you`ll know they are looking for cheap
they might make it clear that they want someone who kows what they are doing , and want a good job and aren`t worried so much about price.
you might find they`re just window shopping , which truly sucks .

" well , thank you , but we were just curious how much it cost. if we get around to doing it , we`ll call you "
get as much info on the phone , and you might know whether its truly worth it to drive there.

hang tough. its worth it


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## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

we used to charge a fee for the estimate, and if they the job we deduct it from the price,. but with all the "contractors" out there, you hardly get the call out if they hear that.
so we sucked it up and do the free estimates thing,. our work is all referrals tho. so most calls are legitimate and not as many tire kickers.

for the ones that are. well. thats just part of doing business...


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

Like others have said, learn to screen the losers on the phone---

As you build a customer base you will get referrals,which will already have an idea of your quality and pricing.

Fresh unknown strangers from open advertising are often just testing the waters on a project that might not even happen.

With unknown strangers you need to be strong enough to ask qualifying questions and firm enough to say,"No" if they are just time wasters.

With all that--I still waste a lot of trips---and hate it---


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

Spike7 said:


> i wish !!
> i just don`see it .
> 
> if its taking too much of your time ( which happens to me alot ) try to schedule certain days . or see if you can see them after work or as early as possible ( either extreme) so you can still get a days work done besides.
> ...


Thanks i usually write down a few questions i want to ask to try and qualify them before wasting a trip ,
I have several loyal customers who love my work ,like and trust me and my opinion and refer me whenever they can (and i am great full for every one of them ) I guess i just have to be patient and expand that base of good customers 
Its funny it seems to me the people with the most money (or appearance of ) are the ones who are looking for the cheap price but high end quality work whereas the average customer wants it done right and don't mind paying for that quality 
thanks for the advise guys 
regards 
Todd


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Do like Leo said, charge $1...or $19.99, $29.99, whatever it is.

Try this on half of your calls (with conviction, like you _know_ they're going to be willing to pay a professional like yourself to spend your valuable time with them). And then act like a real salesman and realize every "no" is getting you closer to the next "yes".

Give it a go for a month or three and see what conclusions you come to.

The biggest problem with most contractors is they already know they're going to fail, "because no one else charges for estimates", and the game is already over before its begun.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Had a job I went to look at. She said the other contractor lead her on for a year before he said no, I don't want the work. I gave her a price that was a few hundred higher than usual because I don't need the work. Got the job, likely because I responded in a timely fashion. All her emails to me started with "thanks for getting back to me"

When I talked to her on the phone I asked questions to see what she was like, made some small talk and never heard a red flag. So I just went over. Plus it was less than 5 miles away so it's no big deal. Gave her a few options and she took the more expensive option, using larger moldings.

Gotta love to know when to hold'm and when to fold'm


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

J F said:


> Do like Leo said, charge $1...or $19.99, $29.99, whatever it is.
> 
> Try this on half of your calls (with conviction, like you _know_ they're going to be willing to pay a professional like yourself to spend your valuable time with them). And then act like a real salesman and realize every "no" is getting you closer to the next "yes".
> 
> ...


thanks jay 
p.s. just looked at your website very impressive I like the video representation for each service very nice indeed


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

here we go again lol 
a woman just called me looking to have a living room painted and crown molding installed throughout the first floor (open floor plan ) so i asked some initial questions 
EX ; so you are looking to have the ceiling, walls and trim painted correct ? 
answer : well the trim is not too bad but maybe some spots need some touch up (smirk ) 
question ok and the ceiling ?
answer: well the ceiling is not too bad maybe just a spot above the sink may need some touch up lol (what ? ) she said her living room was the one being painted 
question : how did you find out about my services did someone refer me ?
answer i found your name on craigslist and we are getting several prices for the job 
my conclusion :i don't think i am the best fit for her job !
she wanted me to go look at it today but i told her i was not available till Tuesday to which she replied i am meeting with the insurance lady Tuesday and we want to start the project wens day but a few minutes later she says well we would like someone who can do the work on the weekends (huh) holy cow my spidey senses were off the charts i told her i would call her after 5 tomorrow to let her know when i could get there  kind off like here's my card ill call ya 
hint to self go with your gut instinct


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## fourcornerhome (Feb 19, 2008)

Wait, What??? You advertise on Craigslist, but if you get calls from it, you don't want those clients???


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

fourcornerhome said:


> Wait, What??? You advertise on Craigslist, but if you get calls from it, you don't want those clients???


:blink: Who the hell wants ALL/MOST clients from whatever way they choose to advertise? 

You advertise to draw enough _potential_ clients to find the ones that are right for_ your _business.

Just damn. :blink:


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

fourcornerhome said:


> Wait, What??? You advertise on Craigslist, but if you get calls from it, you don't want those clients???


Boy, I sure hope you are being sarcastic. This topic of tire kicker, wishy washy clients, etc. (who all waste your time and money) has been talked about on this forum to the Nth degree (i.e. that mean a lot):jester:

The whole trick to inquiries from Craigslist, Angie's list, SM (the name that shall not be spoken!) and any other marketing tool that creates interest and contact from "potential" clients.......is filtering. You want to catch as many of the people that will waste your time as soon as possible. The time and money you spend with someone who will NEVER use your service, and/or, make your life a living hell if they do............can be better spent with folks who are serious and really want your services. And, value your time and effort on their project.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Why are you answering the phone on a Sunday? You want respect, livable wages, not tire kickers, then act like a business that does not cater to tire kickers, are you walmart? then why are you open 24/7? If you offer 24 hr emergency service that is different and if I offered 24 hr service I would tell anyone not needing emergency service to please contact during regular business hours for regular service, unless they want to pay emergency rates for typical service.


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

fourcornerhome said:


> Wait, What??? You advertise on Craigslist, but if you get calls from it, you don't want those clients???


 What i want is a customer who is interested in hiring me to provide them with a quality product and who are willing to pay for that product 
What i do not wan't is the high percentage of bottom feeders who are just trying to get the cheapest price while expecting top quality work 
So what i want to do is try to pre qualify the customers that i think will work well with me 
I was given some advice from a friend to post links on craigslist to my website in part for the juice that links provide and in part for potential customers ,That advice also came with a warning that i should look out for certain types of customers 
I am trying to do that 
And i am trying to learn here from those with more experience than myself which is why i am asking questions.reading and learning every chance i get 
Thanks for your input 
regards


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Maybe he's bored? Or just finished skyrim?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Steaksauce laughing: sorry)... when you post, are you copying/pasting from somewhere else? If so, when you "preview" your post, you can fix the fvkd-up spacing, etc.

Keep fightin' the good fight. :thumbup:


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

J F said:


> Steaksauce laughing: sorry)... when you post, are you copying/pasting from somewhere else? If so, when you "preview" your post, you can fix the fvkd-up spacing, etc.
> 
> Keep fightin' the good fight. :thumbup:


Sorry typing and grammar are not my strong suit, my penmanship sucks too


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

:laughing: No worries. Sometimes when typing/copying from "elsewhere", your post ends up looking very odd, spacing/paragraph-spacing-wise. 

shiite happens


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## Alska101 (Dec 31, 2008)

A-1 INTERIORS said:


> here we go again lol
> a woman just called me looking to have a living room painted and crown molding installed throughout the first floor (open floor plan ) so i asked some initial questions
> EX ; so you are looking to have the ceiling, walls and trim painted correct ?
> answer : well the trim is not too bad but maybe some spots need some touch up (smirk )
> ...


Run run and run.. Lol


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## Alska101 (Dec 31, 2008)

What website? I missed it.


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

Wow it sure must be different where i live. In the last year the biggest painter in the county has laid off over 50 painters, almost all of his business was new const. now there isn't any. guess what those 50 painters are doing now? out looking for repaints that they would't do before. how bad is it, at almost every st. corner there are signs " paint any three rooms $99. Guess what i'm trying to say is i can't afford to not answer any call, so i put on my best smiley face and go try to convince them that i'm the best man for the job. Example: not to long ago i gave a woman a bid of $1200 for a tile job put tile through the whole house. Saw her a couple weeks ago and ask about they tile ( i know this woman) she told me it was done some guy did it for $200. No i didn't skip any 0's.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

I would say any company cannot afford to not answer the phone... Jus' depends who's on the other line :whistling:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Steak Sauce:laughing:


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## Glazier_David (Aug 13, 2012)

I had this same problem when we began our Summer solar screen sale. I was running all over Dallas/Fort Worth quoting everything from 4 to 40 windows, and over 75% of the potential customers would get "sticker shock" and not purchase. To fix this, we put sample prices for an average job on our website. Since then, we have had a 100% conversion rate.

After that, we put sample prices for every service we offer. I've noticed that potential clients expect that sample price to be the minimum they will have to pay, so if the estimate comes in lower, they're ecstatic, and if it comes in higher, it was already expected.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

ToolNut said:


> Wow it sure must be different where i live. In the last year the biggest painter in the county has laid off over 50 painters, almost all of his business was new const. now there isn't any. guess what those 50 painters are doing now? out looking for repaints that they would't do before. how bad is it, at almost every st. corner there are signs " paint any three rooms $99. Guess what i'm trying to say is i can't afford to not answer any call, so i put on my best smiley face and go try to convince them that i'm the best man for the job. Example: not to long ago i gave a woman a bid of $1200 for a tile job put tile through the whole house. Saw her a couple weeks ago and ask about they tile ( i know this woman) she told me it was done some guy did it for $200. No i didn't skip any 0's.


I feel your pain. Some time back we put out a quote on electrical for a back yard spa, lights, outlets, etc. Since this was done through the landscape contractor, I submitted a low, but fair bid. Well, needless to say, we didn't get the job. In fact, the client said that he got a contractor (???) to do the job for less than our cost of materials.......BTW--he didn't know what our cost was, but the guy that did the job for less than $800 was $200 less than our $1000 cost of materials. 

Also, the materials were there to meet code, not to exceed it or do something unique and fancy, just meet code, period.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

I run a ad at Mernards service desk. Its free and got some really good jobs this year off of it. It very hit and miss, with some weeks getting 2-3 calls a day to a month with nothing. I screen them over the phone, and when they say i got your number from Mernards, I already know two things:

1. that they do not really know me and my work
2. They are most likely a tire kicker and I feel free to run my speech on them.

Since they called me, its my job to really see if I want to even looki at the job. After a few times, you can tell the ones that will never commit. So they get the $75 estimate charge if we agree to look at thier job. Out of 10 times I said this, I got 3 paid estimates, and one big job.

Now if the person seems like they are a winner, then I say nothing of the $75 estimate charge. But add it to the price I give them for the job.


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## 6wheeldump (Oct 6, 2012)

You are in a rough spot right now. It is very difficult to charge for estimates when you are first starting. Customers are more willing to pay for an estimate when you have built a really nice portfolio of work, have some tremendous references from long time clients, maybe even some local charity/community work. All that gives you more credibility and makes you worth more. It took me years to get to that point and even then there will still be people that don't want to pay for an estimate. 
A lot of it also had to do with the area that you work in. Do you work in a mainly affluent area? If you would like some good tips just ask. Good luck to you.


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## 4 seasons (Jan 4, 2010)

I would say over time you will get better at qualifying customers and develop systems that will make bidding on jobs more efficient.


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## cabinetsnj (Jun 10, 2012)

Giving free estimates if fine, so long as you understand the typical clients that come from a certain ad campaign. Try to focus on those clients that best the best ROI and you wont be wasting time giving too many free estimates to tire kickers.


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## Herboth (Jan 30, 2012)

*Charging for your work.*

I have gotten to the point where free proposals are getting on my nerves. My customers want me to design their kitchens & bathrooms for free and then give them a bid on that design. Most of the time the customer moves on to someone else uses your designs, or part of your designs. I just gave a proposal to a customer for the hand drawn 1/4 inch scaled drawing. The cost was much less than an archetect, or designer. I also stated for the proposed price that I would change the design until they were happy with it. I just do not like working for free. Also if a customer does not have a blueprint of what they want done then contractor bids are all over the map. I am still doing free bids (Proposals), but the time to measure out the project and draw should be paid for by home owners.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Charge then at least $250 for the design and drawing and then credit that price to the kitchen if they hire you.


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

Thank you to everyone for your advice 
while some in the trades share their experience No one in the feild shares knowledge about running the buisness (or most dont )


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

4 seasons said:


> I would say over time you will get better at qualifying customers and develop systems that will make bidding on jobs more efficient.


Thanks 4 seasons 
I am from Taunton not very far from you 
Just checked out your site :thumbsup: looks Good 
p.s. 
pics werent displaying in the gallery (but might be my computer )


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## Herboth (Jan 30, 2012)

*Drawings*

I charged 450.00 (includes taxes). If I say that I will credit it then I am not getting paid for it unless I hide the cost in my hours for the job. I also spend a good week on projects like this getting sub-contractors to the site to give me bids. Helping the customer pick out tile, fixtures, counter tops, etc. $30,000.00 bathrooms take time unless you know you are over charging to make sure you are not loosing your shirt. All this bidding work is free, so fare.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Here's a dose of reality......

The ideal customer doesn't call you.

Now, before you start typing and accusing me of being a prick think long and hard about that statement. What conclusions can you draw from it? 

Is it fair to say the following statement............

You want the wrong customers to pay you for a visit.

A book could be written about what I just said.

Good luck
Mike


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## cabinetsnj (Jun 10, 2012)

I dont know. Sometimes the best customers tend not to be the ones you expected, and many times the worst customers tend to be those whom you least expected. Customers are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.


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## Ron Pestone (Nov 22, 2012)

I do not know anybody who charges for estimates. It is just part of the business. I have been involved in multi million dollar bids and lost the bid. What I learned years ago was if we lost the bid, put it aside until the project was awarded and then get rid of it. In the meantime get it off the board and put the next one on and start bidding.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Just because you never heard of it doesn't make it a bad idea.

If you are doing commercial work only then I can see it. After all, they want you to fund the project from the beginning.

But if you are in residential you need to qualify your clients. And a small upfront charge is one way to do it. You may lose some potentially good clients, and you will likely never even know you lost a good one, how could you if you didn't get the job.

But there are so many people out there that don't have a clue or are just going to have you by to pick your brain. Those people will only loose you money and time. By having a small fee, upfront, to get you to their door you find out that they are serious right there.

If you don't charge a fee and do a free estimate then give them a true estimate. 

"Yes ma'am, this kitchen will cost you in the neighborhood of $32K-$45K depending on the options and quality level you choose" 

You don't put it on paper and you don't go into much detail.

If they want a proposal, that is, something written down on paper with real solid numbers and materials then you need to charge something for your work and time.

Unless you are a larger company that has lots of salesmen then you need to charge for the time you spend doing "work" aka: estimates. You tell them that the estimate charge will be taken off of the job total at the end if you go forward with our company. If you choose another company then there is no refund and the estimate fee is charged for services rendered.


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## Ron Pestone (Nov 22, 2012)

Say you work on an estimate for 5 hours and you charge and you charge $25.00 per hour and you give your client a bill for $125.00 to look at the estimate. Maybe you are right but I cannot see anybody paying it. If you are right your company will be a success if you are wrong you will go broke. Good luck.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Ron Pestone said:


> Maybe you are right but I cannot see anybody paying it.


Some do, I promise ya.









If you have any real desire to overcome your belief that no one will pay for this do a search for "charging for estimates" and similar on this site. You'll find tons of threads.

It _is_ possible, and it _ca_n work. You just have to be at the top of your game and not be lumped in with every other "contractor" on the planet (who _can't_ charge these fees), by your potential client.


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## Braciole (Jul 16, 2011)

We give free verbal estimates, we charge for written estimates. If we get the job the fee counts as a credit on the job. This works especially well on Craigslist. Tire kicker central.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Ron Pestone said:


> Say you work on an estimate for 5 hours and you charge and you charge $25.00 per hour and you give your client a bill for $125.00 to look at the estimate. Maybe you are right but I cannot see anybody paying it. If you are right your company will be a success if you are wrong you will go broke. Good luck.


Never said you would charge an hourly fee for it. Just a straight fee to make them think about having you come by. If they are serious they wouldn't have a thought about a small fee. If they were tire kickers then the likelihood of them asking you to come by to look at the job is greatly diminished. They aren't your customer anyway.

I use to charge $1 to come and see a job. And I had people reject the idea. If you can't part with a single dollar to have me drive to your home and discuss your project I'm doubting you are willing to spend the kind of money it will take for me to actually do your project.

One dollar.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Braciole said:


> We give free verbal estimates, we charge for written estimates. If we get the job the fee counts as a credit on the job. This works especially well on Craigslist. Tire kicker central.


Do you really work from craigslist? I dont doubt there is work but I have always felt that it undermines proffessionals. I know out of work union guys go there because the side works rates they charge are in line with the clients seeking the service. I find that to be very bad for true pro's with overheads and I will never support it.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

If I think the estimate will consume a lot of my time then I ask for a $75 fee. If they say no then I figure I just saved myself a load of time. If they are too cheap to pay a reasonable fee for my time then my price will be too high for them anyway. It tells me they are price shopping looking for the lowest possible price, and if I gave that to them I would be out of business. I am thinking about adding a trip charge for people wanting me to work on rental property or house flippers as well, that's another group who seem to be wasting my time, always looking for a completely unreasonable low price. 

Your sales to lead ratio should be at least 1 in 4. If it's less than that, you need to put some thought into your sales approach such as charging for estimates like you said, weed out the tire kickers. Protecting your time is very important to the success of your business, you never have enough of it as you probably already found.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Leo G said:


> I use to charge $1 to come and see a job. And I had people reject the idea. If you can't part with a single dollar to have me drive to your home and discuss your project I'm doubting you are willing to spend the kind of money it will take for me to actually do your project.
> 
> One dollar.


Been waiting to bust this one out again. :laughing:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Most remodelers I know charge for estimates. That's nothing new.


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

Oconomowoc said:


> Most remodelers I know charge for estimates. That's nothing new.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:
yeah that Jay is one cool cracker :laughing:

thats too funny Thanks for the laugh


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Glad to be of service. :laughing:


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

6wheeldump said:


> You are in a rough spot right now. It is very difficult to charge for estimates when you are first starting. Customers are more willing to pay for an estimate when you have built a really nice portfolio of work, have some tremendous references from long time clients, maybe even some local charity/community work. All that gives you more credibility and makes you worth more. It took me years to get to that point and even then there will still be people that don't want to pay for an estimate.
> A lot of it also had to do with the area that you work in. Do you work in a mainly affluent area? If you would like some good tips just ask. Good luck to you.


Thanks 
as far as my area no its not very affluent ,I have to find a way to market myself in towns with more high end homes ,But as you said it is tough because i am still just starting out.
In this economy i know i could very easily become one of the 95 percent that fail in the first few years .
I am limited in my ability to advertise only on free sites because work is very slow for me .
One problem I have is my website pretty much sucks because i have no tech skills (seo ect..) it doesnt look bad but the content is well blahh at best and the seo is non exsistant 
So ok yes i am asking could anyone help me with some free marketing tips or resources 
Thanks for all the advice and comments 
Todd 
I appreciate your help guys


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

The greater your reputation the greater your demand. Work on your reputation because in construction reputation is everything. In this business a "personal brand" trumps "business brand".

The guys with the best personal brand charge for estimates.


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