# Constantly getting under bid...Am I expecting more that I should?



## BrothersHI

Hey everyone,

For the past 3 months, we've have not had any luck in landing jobs. We go out on a good number of estimates but nothing coming out from them. If it's not people just completely ignoring us once they get the estimate then its people that come back and tell us that they got "another bid" for SOOOOOO much cheaper, that they want to go with us and trusts us just that they got such a better price from "the other guy".

My brother and I have been in the trades for 12+ years and know competitive pricing and we know that we are not always going to be the cheapest because we take our time and do things right and focus on detail and respect to our customers homes and we charge for that. We've been in business for ourselves for about 1 year and a half and had a pretty good year last year. Stay busy pretty much all year But the last 3 months have been dead! 

About an hr ago we get an email from a job that we pretty much had booked for this week coming up saying that they got a bid to do it for $1900. It involves painting an entire house of about 2700 sqft of wall area consisting of:

3 Bedrooms, 
4 Closets, 
2 Bathrooms, 
Dining room, 
Living room, 
Sun Room,
Kitchen, 
Laundry room 
Utility room.
Hallway

painting the entire 1300sqft ceiling, caulking and painting all door and window casing, all baseboard, and all crown, painting 6 doors AND painting the kitchen cabinets!!!

We quoted him $4400.00 which includes all material, etc which I think is a completely fair price. Am I wrong to think that this is a fair market price? Am I charging more than the "going rate"? I'm in chicago btw...

....and with all due respect... I know that "everyone's price is different, that you cant charge what the other company charges and that you have to know your own numbers etc... but there is still a "going rate" as to what a customer should expect to pay.

I've attached a image of the estimate so that you can take a look at that if you'd like.

All help would be VERY much appreciated! I'm just getting to the end of the fuse here


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## BrothersHI

Just another little story for all of you:

About 2 weeks ago I go on a estimate and the guy wants the tile his bathroom floor of about 65 sqft with slate tiles, tile from floor to ceiling an accent wall with faux wood tiles of about 90 sqft, cut out a channel in his existing shower tile to add the accent wood tiles into the shower

I gave him a price of $1850 which included all the rough material and he had the nerve to ask if that price included the tile!!!!! 

Seriously, I feel like i'm taking crazy pills! Not only do they want the estimate free....Now it seems like they want the work free too!


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## Jaws

Im in the same boat. Lost 8 of the last 11. Never seen a streak this bad, hope it breaks soon

The three we landed were smaller projects.


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## CITY DECKS INC

BrothersHI said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> For the past 3 months, we've have not had any luck in landing jobs. We go out on a good number of estimates but nothing coming out from them. If it's not people just completely ignoring us once they get the estimate then its people that come back and tell us that they got "another bid" for SOOOOOO much cheaper, that they want to go with us and trusts us just that they got such a better price from "the other guy".
> 
> My brother and I have been in the trades for 12+ years and know competitive pricing and we know that we are not always going to be the cheapest because we take our time and do things right and focus on detail and respect to our customers homes and we charge for that. We've been in business for ourselves for about 1 year and a half and had a pretty good year last year. Stay busy pretty much all year But the last 3 months have been dead!
> 
> About an hr ago we get an email from a job that we pretty much had booked for this week coming up saying that they got a bid to do it for $1900. It involves painting an entire house of about 2700 sqft of wall area consisting of:
> 
> 3 Bedrooms,
> 4 Closets,
> 2 Bathrooms,
> Dining room,
> Living room,
> Sun Room,
> Kitchen,
> Laundry room
> Utility room.
> Hallway
> 
> painting the entire 1300sqft ceiling, caulking and painting all door and window casing, all baseboard, and all crown, painting 6 doors AND painting the kitchen cabinets!!!
> 
> We quoted him $4400.00 which includes all material, etc which I think is a completely fair price. Am I wrong to think that this is a fair market price? Am I charging more than the "going rate"? I'm in chicago btw...
> 
> ....and with all due respect... I know that "everyone's price is different, that you cant charge what the other company charges and that you have to know your own numbers etc... but there is still a "going rate" as to what a customer should expect to pay.
> 
> I've attached a image of the estimate so that you can take a look at that if you'd like.
> 
> All help would be VERY much appreciated! I'm just getting to the end of the fuse here


your numbers are great. I want to hire you for my own house. 
The average gallon of fkn paint is almost $40 bucks at SW. We only use them. The chit is not cheap and HD is few dollars less and worth a chit. 
I know he feeling that you and many others have or are experiencing. I had a streak of 50% less bids last year. It was they were following me around every night and just cutting my numbers in 1/2. I follow up with all estimates a week or two after they go out. for about 2/months they all said I was about dbl from the other estimates. I simply replied with do you have it in writing? Then I wan to see it because if it's apples to apples then i'll match it no questions asked. Not one of them could produce a proper estimate detailed. Out of about 12 or so I closed out about 8. We a few other customers that went with the other guy for price and later called us to fix / re-due the jobs. I had them write a letter explaining what they went through when they bought price. I pull it out once in a while. 

Hang in there and best of luck to you all. And remember more leads, more appointments, more closings!


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## gastek

Unfortunately price is what most people go by these days. If they can save a buck they will. Also remember that these people that go the way or Mr. Cheapo are also the ones that are probably going to be the pickiest people in town about everything and you would probably regret working for some of them.

My business is quite a bit different than yours but I get under cut all the time. I try to find ways to sell the customer on my price like telling them I do all the work myself and I don't sub any of it out. I am licensed and carry insurance which costs me so my prices are higher. I also tell them my prices are higher becasue I am going to stay in business for a long time as compared to the other guy who will probably be out of business in a year due to poor pricing. It happens.

So find something of value you can offer the HO and see how that works. I'm sure you are doing this but offer references to verify your work and how good it is. Offer to show them pictures of your work. All of this can go a long ways in convincing a customer to use you over Joe Dirt that under cut your bid by $150.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

What these customers don't tell you is they also have bids much higher than yours. But the majority of them are only shopping based on price. A few days ago I priced a job for a guy and dropped of the quote. He said he had another contractor coming over in about 30 mins so he will get back to me in a few days. Well 40 mins later he called me and said the guy who just come said he could do it for half my price :blink: he laughed and said he didn't even step foot in the bathroom. He just asked if he had any other quotes and he had mine so the guy just figured he could do it for half my price. I. The sad thing is there's people out there who will do it for 1/3 to 1/4 what your charging but they won't be using the same quality materials or have the same level of skill and knowledge. Some customers don't care about any off that. The cheapest to some is the best and trust me you don't want these customers anyway. The little profit you make will be eaten up with them being an ass to work for.


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## Mr Latone

You have been a tradesman for 12 and in business for 1 1/2.

Work on sales skills or hire a salesman.

No guarantees from anything in this business, but sales and trade are two different skills.

The customer has to want to buy what you are selling. If they are buying cheap, that's not what you offer so of course you lose. They need to_ want _to buy something other than cheap.

There's good and there's cheap. Rarely do the two exist together. 

Most people don't really want cheap, they want inexpensive. They still believe they are getting good. Are they?

The customer who becomes your customer needs to think this way.


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## greg24k

BrothersHI said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> For the past 3 months, we've have not had any luck in landing jobs. We go out on a good number of estimates but nothing coming out from them. If it's not people just completely ignoring us once they get the estimate then its people that come back and tell us that they got "another bid" for SOOOOOO much cheaper, that they want to go with us and trusts us just that they got such a better price from "the other guy".
> 
> My brother and I have been in the trades for 12+ years and know competitive pricing and we know that we are not always going to be the cheapest because we take our time and do things right and focus on detail and respect to our customers homes and we charge for that. We've been in business for ourselves for about 1 year and a half and had a pretty good year last year. Stay busy pretty much all year But the last 3 months have been dead!
> 
> About an hr ago we get an email from a job that we pretty much had booked for this week coming up saying that they got a bid to do it for $1900. It involves painting an entire house of about 2700 sqft of wall area consisting of:
> 
> 3 Bedrooms,
> 4 Closets,
> 2 Bathrooms,
> Dining room,
> Living room,
> Sun Room,
> Kitchen,
> Laundry room
> Utility room.
> Hallway
> 
> painting the entire 1300sqft ceiling, caulking and painting all door and window casing, all baseboard, and all crown, painting 6 doors AND painting the kitchen cabinets!!!
> 
> We quoted him $4400.00 which includes all material, etc which I think is a completely fair price. Am I wrong to think that this is a fair market price? Am I charging more than the "going rate"? I'm in chicago btw...
> 
> ....and with all due respect... I know that "everyone's price is different, that you cant charge what the other company charges and that you have to know your own numbers etc... but there is still a "going rate" as to what a customer should expect to pay.
> 
> I've attached a image of the estimate so that you can take a look at that if you'd like.
> 
> All help would be VERY much appreciated! I'm just getting to the end of the fuse here


IMO whats killing your bids is 50% down request... To much going on today and people reading about horror stories,i.e "contractors" take deposit and don't return, etc.
Break it up to a more suitable schedule so they feel comfortable.


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## MarkJames

When I hear some regular clients commenting about their new "so wonderful and cheap painter", I'm skeptical by default and remind them that there's painting for selling, and there's painting you want to live with, since that's what I see way too often. Then you can explain it further, shrug you shoulders, smile in polite disbelief, say it is a great paint job, or whatever you like.

But if you're clearly getting ultra-lowballed, make sure to ask the client if the painter is doing x, y and z for prep, coats, cutting in, etc. It will at least cause some doubt that will dissuade them from prematurely singing the praises of the ultra-lowballer on yelp, listserv, to the neighbors, etc. before they have a chance to realize their mistake. I did some work in a house where the painting & drywall repair got left to another supposed "great guy". The result was pathetic drywall repair, dust everywhere on furniture, bookshelves, etc. and spatter on the hardwood. You better believe I pointed it out to my referral since she was all ready to refer him to others. 

I quoted another job that involved replacing some damaged siding + repaint on a house, and the owner was insistent that the quote reflect entire boards be replaced. Later, he told me I got outbid significantly, with that way of saying it like my numbers were inflated. I drove by a few weeks later and sure enough, the next guy patched and caulked. Luckily, I goat a chance to ask the owner "Oh, I thought you had wanted those boards replaced?" I wish you could have seen his face when he realized it (esp. the more difficult boards high up).


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## killerdecks

Charge for estimates, $25.00 or so will get rid of the tire kickers, position yourself in the market better, if you want to paint sell paint.

Take smaller dep for sure. People figure, if your an established business you shouldn't need his money to work, than get progression payments if needed, so you are no too strung out at the end of the job


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## ohiohomedoctor

I would concentrate more on increasing the number of sales calls and less on price matching the desperate. I aim for 15% close rate. This may sound low but the number is market derived meaning that I try to close the minimum amount necessary to fill the schedule at the maximum profit tier.

Don't get discouraged just throw out some adword ads and get the estimating shoes back on...


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## TAHomeRepairs

greg24k said:


> IMO whats killing your bids is 50% down request... To much going on today and people reading about horror stories,i.e "contractors" take deposit and don't return, etc.
> Break it up to a more suitable schedule so they feel comfortable.


Where did OP say he takes 50% down?


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## Jaws

TAHomeRepairs said:


> Where did OP say he takes 50% down?


In the PDF download.


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## MarkJames

TAHomeRepairs said:


> Where did OP say he takes 50% down?


I didn't read it, but there's a pdf attachment in the OP.


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## jhark123

Change "unexpected difficulties" to "concealed conditions" on that proposal. One means "anything I missed because I'm a dufus" and the other means "anything that could not be observed"

Do you have a good contract? You payment schedule and concealed conditons clause don't need to be on your proposal if they are clear in your contract. 

I agree, for a painter, change the deposit to 25% and have a progress payment or two.


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## jhark123

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I would concentrate more on increasing the number of sales calls and less on price matching the desperate. I aim for 15% close rate. This may sound low but the number is market derived meaning that I try to close the minimum amount necessary to fill the schedule at the maximum profit tier.
> 
> Don't get discouraged just throw out some adword ads and get the estimating shoes back on...


Yep, you should be close to 75-100% on referals and 15-25% on cold calls.

Remember to ask for you clients referals.


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## Newave

Keep doing what your doing. Your prices are extremely great. Your thankful you didn't get these jobs. I'm in the same boat.


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## ohiohomedoctor

jhark123 said:


> Yep, you should be close to 75-100% on referals and 15-25% on cold calls.
> 
> Remember to ask for you clients referals.


Referrals come naturally to those who provide an outstanding service.


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## EthanB

I tend to be on the low end for competitive bids in my area. Competitive meaning that I disregard the hack prices that occasionally roll in at 40% less than me. Even with that I will no longer bid on paint-only projects for new customers. I was getting clobbered. Regular customers or referrals still hire me and love the value.

Ten years ago painting was 40-50% of my business and I was known for really good quality and very fair pricing. I haven't really changed the way I paint or the way I price, other than inflation increases, so that tells me what's going on.

I want to make MORE money as I get older, not LESS so I said "goodbye" to paint-only.


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## killerdecks

EthanB said:


> I tend to be on the low end for competitive bids in my area. Competitive meaning that I disregard the hack prices that occasionally roll in at 40% less than me. Even with that I will no longer bid on paint-only projects for new customers. I was getting clobbered. Regular customers or referrals still hire me and love the value.
> 
> Ten years ago painting was 40-50% of my business and I was known for really good quality and very fair pricing. I haven't really changed the way I paint or the way I price, other than inflation increases, so that tells me what's going on.
> 
> I want to make MORE money as I get older, not LESS so I said "goodbye" to paint-only.


I got into this because i could simply make more money working for me that someone else. We always tried to slaughter the comp, one way or another.

Making more money when you get older doesn't mean you have to charge more. You can do multiple jobs grow your. BUsiness and have others work for you.

Depending apon now you position yourself in the market you can be lower than most, do lots of work, and do what you want with your time

Colonel sanders didn't cook much chicken for the last 25 years he just sold the stuff and was the figure head.

Someday you are going to want to get out of the kitchen rather than doing all the work. The quicker you do that the more successful you'll be. Unless of course you believe you'll never have any health problems and can work like a 20 year old when you are 70


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## CarpenterSFO

wellbuilt home said:


> Most of the work is on the lower end of materials .
> I get out bid by half all the time.
> The CL GUYS ARE OUT IN FORCE .


Tell me about it. I just got off the phone from disqualifying a lead. Yesterday I spent 15 minutes in a prospect's home - I was working next door and had a referral, so it made sense to be there. Looked around, and called the H.O. this morning with the possible range. He wouldn't discuss his budget, and asked could I please break that down to an item-by-item labor-only cost and send that to him in time for the 2 other contractors who will be there tomorrow.

I tried, not entirely successfully, not to sound ticked off. I thanked him for calling me and wished him luck with his project.

It was a successful phone call - it saved me the time of following up further. It still raised my blood pressure for a few minutes.


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## Tom M

Same horror show here.


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## pinturachica

CarpenterSFO said:


> Tell me about it. I just got off the phone from disqualifying a lead. Yesterday I spent 15 minutes in a prospect's home - I was working next door and had a referral, so it made sense to be there. Looked around, and called the H.O. this morning with the possible range. He wouldn't discuss his budget, and asked could I please break that down to an item-by-item labor-only cost and send that to him in time for the 2 other contractors who will be there tomorrow.
> 
> I tried, not entirely successfully, not to sound ticked off. I thanked him for calling me and wished him luck with his project.
> 
> It was a successful phone call - it saved me the time of following up further. It still raised my blood pressure for a few minutes.


Yep, it seems like it happens more and more lately. Where I live, there are a lot of home builders. I think the last five jobs I went to look at were already performed by someone that likely worked for a builder, got a little bit of technical know how on using power tools, found their homeowners in the parking lot of the box store, got hired and did some chitty work. Now I am the one called to "fix" what someone else did. And of course the HO is mad because they have already paid for substandard work and think I'm an azz because of my quote. As if they didn't already know that the lowest cost bidder was a huge mistake. It is maddening.
When you walk into McD's and don't want to pay $3.50 for a big mac, they have a dollar menu that you can choose from. What most HOs can't wrap their heads around is that when you don't want to pay full price and have to shop the dollar menu, you have to GIVE UP what you want and get what you can afford. I've never asked a HO what kind of money they make for a days work, but they sure are interested in monitoring what I would receive for a days work. It is definitely a blood pressure raise.


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## kubie

At least you got a chance on getting the job.

I received a call to convert a garage into living space, couldnt get to the phone and they left a message.

I called them back within 10 min. no answer, so I left a message.

This was at 5pm

I called the next day at 9 am and the owner said that they already signed a proposal.

Some owners dont even give ya a chance.

Good grief!!


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## CarpenterSFO

I may gripe about some of the prospects but overall I'm not complaining - there's legitimate business out there, and I'm getting some of it. What always strikes me about the lowballers and trunkslammers is that they aren't even helping themselves - they can't sustain any kind of continuing business on what they charge, and the SF Bay Area isn't an easy place to live on peanuts, either.


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## ASInsulation

I just got beat on a spray foam job by over 50%. I explained that its fine if you want you use him, but just be sure your not miscommunicating your expectations, because I can't even get the material for the quote he got!


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## kubie

I dont think owners look at the scope of work, just the cost at the bottom.

Thats all they want, untill they find out what they are really getting.

The home owners need to do their part. Do the research and have items in mind that they want.

This takes more time than what they may think.

I always know if I am the 1st contractor to look at the job when the owner doesnt even know what they want.

Maybe its the allowances some contractors use, keep the allowance cost down to get in the door. Which in most cases wont cover the actual cost of material.


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## CarpenterSFO

kubie said:


> Maybe its the allowances some contractors use, keep the allowance cost down to get in the door. Which in most cases wont cover the actual cost of material.


Page 1 in the Lowballer's Guide to Getting Work


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## go dart

Seriously one of the worst "contracts" I've ever seen. " convert vanity to EXCEPT additional sink" ?? No business address/no accountability. Theres several things that could of cost you this job and somebody elses price wasn't one of them.


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## EricBrancard

kubie said:


> At least you got a chance on getting the job.
> 
> I received a call to convert a garage into living space, couldnt get to the phone and they left a message.
> 
> I called them back within 10 min. no answer, so I left a message.
> 
> This was at 5pm
> 
> I called the next day at 9 am and the owner said that they already signed a proposal.
> 
> Some owners dont even give ya a chance.
> 
> Good grief!!


Sounds to me like they were shopping a renovation project in the same manner they would a service call. You were better off "missing out" on that one.


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## inmo

The underbidding is driving plenty of good contractors out of business. After 13 years in business I am seriously considering closing my business due to underbidding. For every contractor trying to run their company as a "legitimate business" there's a hundred "wage workers" who don't. I'm afraid it's only going to get worse. The labor rates are so low now it's hardly worth pulling out of the driveway. The industry needs solidarity pricing like other trades (ie. electricians and plumbers) but its just not the case for GC trades. It's very unfortunate. I wish I had a better answer to this ongoing problem.


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## CSB

inmo said:


> The underbidding is driving plenty of good contractors out of business. After 13 years in business I am seriously considering closing my business due to underbidding. For every contractor trying to run their company as a "legitimate business" there's a hundred "wage workers" who don't. I'm afraid it's only going to get worse. The labor rates are so low now it's hardly worth pulling out of the driveway. The industry needs solidarity pricing like other trades (ie. electricians and plumbers) but its just not the case for GC trades. It's very unfortunate. I wish I had a better answer to this ongoing problem.


Underbidding isn't driving any _good_ contractors out of business. 

"Wage workers" as you call them have a fundamental flaw in their business model; their prices are so low that they can't sustain downswings, the inevitable variance in the industry. It's sort of like an animal consuming enough calories to sustain existence during the spring and summer but not getting enough survive to survive a cold winter. This slow, painful death is inevitable, and someone has to be there to pick up the slack.

I love, love, love it when I get underbid on a job because typically that's a customer I don't want to do work with anyhow. People who are unnecessarily nitty about things like price tend to be miserly and won't liberally hand out referrals. They get to watch the cheap guys spend a week tearing off and shingling, wondering how the neighbor down the streets roof was finished by us in just two days. A few years down the road when it gets a little windy - when the workmanship of the other guy begins to show and he's nowhere to be found because his prices were so good - they'll be calling us for the repair work, and they're happy to pay for a better contractor now. Guess who is roofing that house next time around?

If you can't compete with uneducated fools then you should take an objective look at your business and the direction it's headed.


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## 808tileguy

greg24k said:


> IMO whats killing your bids is 50% down request... To much going on today and people reading about horror stories,i.e "contractors" take deposit and don't return, etc.
> Break it up to a more suitable schedule so they feel comfortable.


I agree , The bigger the job the more you breackdown your payments. My commercial contracts i bill every 10 % and Prior to work payment so a total off 11 payments. 

On the other hand small jobs ill do 50% down and 50% upon completion. If the customer seems hesitant I say pay me the prior to work payment at the end of our first day. Always worked for me:clap:


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## sailfish27

I see this from a different angle perhaps because while I have done construction my whole life I have limited experience contracting (dealing directly with homeowner's). I think contractor's in general do themselves a great disservice by not being more open about pricing. If for instance, it was fairly well known that the going rate to paint a room was say 400.00 (no idea if that's accurate) then the HO would have a better idea beforehand what the costs were and the "lowballer" would also probably have bid closer to the OP and not left so much money on the table. If this were the case and both contractors are close in price the HO's only consideration is workmanship ,scheduling etc.. Everybody wins. When I get my truck worked on or my teeth cleaned I know ahead of time what the costs are, my only decision then is convenience and quality. 

I am not sure if some of you guys realize it or not but some of these so called "lowballers" are just ignorant to pricing, costs overhead etc. No one wants to leave 2000.oo on the table and their not all sharks relying on change orders or using inferior material they just don't know better and they drag us all down with them. They also confuse the prospective client the client thinks the guy charging the right amount is the unscrupulous one.

The longer these guys are kept in the dark the more money we all lose. They are lowering our value and our industry because like it or not we are forced to compete with them. If you believe that yelling at someone for asking price is the way to go fine, I think were missing an opportunity to educate someone new to raise everyone's value.


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## cagney

Just got burned for about 8k in december of last year. Being my idiot self I started jacking up prices on bids this year to "compensate" Ive lost about 10 since january and 2 of them should have been in the bag...oh well


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## twill59

CSB said:


> Underbidding isn't driving any _good_ contractors out of business.
> 
> "Wage workers" as you call them have a fundamental flaw in their business model; their prices are so low that they can't sustain downswings, the inevitable variance in the industry. It's sort of like an animal consuming enough calories to sustain existence during the spring and summer but not getting enough survive to survive a cold winter. This slow, painful death is inevitable, and someone has to be there to pick up the slack.
> 
> I love, love, love it when I get underbid on a job because typically that's a customer I don't want to do work with anyhow. People who are unnecessarily nitty about things like price tend to be miserly and won't liberally hand out referrals. They get to watch the cheap guys spend a week tearing off and shingling, wondering how the neighbor down the streets roof was finished by us in just two days. A few years down the road when it gets a little windy - when the workmanship of the other guy begins to show and he's nowhere to be found because his prices were so good - they'll be calling us for the repair work, and they're happy to pay for a better contractor now. Guess who is roofing that house next time around?
> 
> If you can't compete with uneducated fools then you should take an objective look at your business and the direction it's headed.


Except, how many of these Bozos have a wife who is a nurse, schoolteacher or government employee? The wife is just happy that Chuck makes the truck payment, stays out of the bars and watches the kids part-time. For that, she will gladly pay the family bills.

I've met a lot of these guys.


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## twill59

sailfish27 said:


> I see this from a different angle perhaps because while I have done construction my whole life I have limited experience contracting (dealing directly with homeowner's). I think contractor's in general do themselves a great disservice by not being more open about pricing. If for instance, it was fairly well known that the going rate to paint a room was say 400.00 (no idea if that's accurate) then the HO would have a better idea beforehand what the costs were and the "lowballer" would also probably have bid closer to the OP and not left so much money on the table. If this were the case and both contractors are close in price the HO's only consideration is workmanship ,scheduling etc.. Everybody wins. When I get my truck worked on or my teeth cleaned I know ahead of time what the costs are, my only decision then is convenience and quality.
> 
> I am not sure if some of you guys realize it or not but some of these so called "lowballers" are just ignorant to pricing, costs overhead etc. No one wants to leave 2000.oo on the table and their not all sharks relying on change orders or using inferior material they just don't know better and they drag us all down with them. They also confuse the prospective client the client thinks the guy charging the right amount is the unscrupulous one.
> 
> The longer these guys are kept in the dark the more money we all lose. They are lowering our value and our industry because like it or not we are forced to compete with them. If you believe that yelling at someone for asking price is the way to go fine, I think were missing an opportunity to educate someone new to raise everyone's value.


Problem is, you are talking hard numbers. Think %.

For example: A roll of paper towels. Same store, same shelf even.
Yes one is $1 for a roll. The other is $1.40. ONLY 40 cents, right? Of course the homeowner will give the high bid guy 40 cents more. 
Will the owner pay 40% for the better paper towels tho?

So, do you need 40 cents more to do the job right, or 40% more?


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## twill59

Anyway, lots of great stuff on this thread here. I C&P'ed some for reference. I'll be taking copies with me on sales calls.


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## D.E.P.S.

50% down is a little steep in my opinion. I would also change the comment section where it says that* "all work"* is warranteed or guaranteed for 1 one year. Be more specific as to what you will warranty. I warranty *workmanship only*. Once the work is completed in a agreed upon satisfactory manner, the liability of a warranty goes to the manufacturer of the installed products that you installed in a agreed upon satisfactory manner. I always include this in the "scope of work" that I provide to the client.


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## sailfish27

twill59 said:


> Problem is, you are talking hard numbers. Think %.
> 
> For example: A roll of paper towels. Same store, same shelf even.
> Yes one is $1 for a roll. The other is $1.40. ONLY 40 cents, right? Of course the homeowner will give the high bid guy 40 cents more.
> Will the owner pay 40% for the better paper towels tho?
> 
> So, do you need 40 cents more to do the job right, or 40% more?


I'm talking about a floor or starting point. If the floor is $400 to paint a room and your busy or have built a great reputation then yeah add 40% to the job. If on the other hand your starting out or slow maybe you might want to charge $390 per room. The point is no one should be charging half price for a job, and I believe if the contractor doing so were more aware of the "going rate" they wouldn't be doing it. Again, no one, not even lowballer, wants to leave that much money on the table, it makes no sense.


----------



## Spencer

Jaxyaks said:


> How do you do it?....if there is no advertised price in your area how do you verify you are competitive? I'm not talking about multi trade remodels, I'm talking about things like a new deck, new roof etc, if they won't tell ya over the phone what choice do you have, I have been priced shopped by other contractors as well and don't mind a bit, if anything it helps to even the board in the area your in.
> 
> Everybody always talks about standardizing things so ther is no mystery to it, how do you think that happens, coincidence?
> 
> It's business and every business needs to know they are competitive in their market, and unfortunately residential construction has no real guides to go by, sure you can sit there and mope and worry why you aren't getting jobs, wonder if your doing something wrong etc. or you can take steps to verify that you are competitive to rule out money alone.
> 
> I make it a habit to not take jobs from the I just want it the cheapest customer, but when I hear..you are higher than everyone in town more than a couple of times, I am going to find out why and figure out if they are giving less service or maybe they are more efficient and take steps to align with the standard.
> 
> This doesent apply to everything, but if every client tells me my painters are more expensive than anyone else, I am going to verify it. And you cannot trust a homeowner to ever give you an honest true bid from another contractor, they have too much to gain from you.
> 
> Think whatever you want, I'm in business to make money and that's what I plan to keep doing..


How do I do it? Good question. Honestly, I don't really do what you just described. 

I know I am more expensive. I know that is just the way it is because I work very hard to be the best around. I don't have to tell anyone that. My work speaks for itself and other spread the word.

In regards to general remodeling, I have not the slightest clue what my competition charge on a per hour basis. If in the process of qualifying a customer they give me the inclination that I am going to be bidding competitively I don't pursue the job further unless I feel that the client is after the kind of quality I provide because I know I am going to be more expensive.

It is perfectly legitimate to seek out the competitions rates. Just not in the deceptive way you proposed. In regards to things such as drywall, framing, concrete, painting, etc where you typically have sq ft pricing you need to know where you are at. That doesn't mean you have to lie to get the information. 

Bid against someone. Half the time the homeowner will spill the beans on what the competitions pricing is.

Ask the competition straight up. I was considering working as a trim sub. I have discussed pricing with other trim subs man to man. That kind of thing typically only happens with stand up guys. Not guys who deceitfully try and set up people to gain information.

The list could go on. The point is that there is a multitude of ways to gain that knowledge apart from lying or being deceitful.


----------



## Jaxyaks

Last time I checked, calling a deck or painting company and asking them what they charge for their services is not lying or being decietful.

I know where my prices are as well as my subs, I know I am not the cheapest and don't want to be, if there is a bidding war I will lose and don't care if I do. I still like to know where prices are going in case I ever do need to compete. We are fortunate and have not had to advertise for 5 years, and I could put a crew to work on Christmas Day and New a years if I wanted to. If I never took another phone call I am booked till June. I don't have time to sit and slack jaw at an association meeting, I've been doing a lot of end of the year work on the computer the last few days so I've been posting a bit on here to break the monotony...

I gave that advice to the OP as a quick way to find out without having to deal with the HO's bid that may or may not be accurate. It was advised as a, man I need to get the next bid even if it means just creating a little cash flow with little profit scenario, and I know better than to hear the...I wouldn't do that, or why would you do that etc scenarios. The OP referenced paint, call a painting company in the area and find out what kind of prices their customers are seeing. 

Sometimes it is an eye opener and can improve your business, I guess sometimes it can upset the balance of the internet...lol

Lots of good ideas here, lots of good business advice, and I also agree that you should not care what your competition is doing, but that's not worth anything when you are hungry, and need to get some work, so I apologize if I offended anyone.

To the OP, keep on giving it your best, and it will get better, the time it takes to get there sucks, and everyone has been there and will probably be there again in some form or fashion...


----------



## river rider

Jaxyaks said:


> Nobody knows when they are being shopped, but I'm sure we all have been, I can usuallybut you tell, so your telling me that construction services is the only business that is not permitted to do market research? It's not my fault that the only way to do research is actually schedule an appointment and have a physical appointment. Again, I am not talking about a remodel, there are too many variables and it's a waste of time to inquire. But a question like...how much is it to build a 10x10 deck out of xyz, with xyz number of steps, etc is pretty straight forward and will let you know where you are at. Or 5 rooms 2 closets and trim 800 SF paint one color. Etc.
> 
> I'm sure nobody has ever inquired to more than one business to see if they can get materials cheaper or if their supplier is in line with everyone else..or which tire shop has the better price or to see if the one you are using is in line with the rest..I am sure no one has ever used those peoples time...All perfect angels...
> 
> Construction is a business...all business at least the successful ones do market research..why this business should be any different than the others is beyond me...


I never said you should not do market research. The fact that you say "THE ONLY WAY" to do this is by setting up fake bids from legit contractors is just stupidity.

"IT'S NOT MY FAULT..." So you are FORCED to directly lie to contractors in your area ? FORCED to set up fake meetings under false pretenses ? You find this to be reasonable justification for being a liar?

"REMODEL.....WASTE OF TIME TO INQUIRE" So you are concerned it is a waste of YOUR time to inquire? With no regard for the other (assumed honest hard working) contractor you are duping out of his time by having them visit your fictitious site to bid your never to be built project.

So you equate me calling several suppliers, clearly identifying myself, and asking them for my pricing on project items -- to you setting up elaborate deceptions having your family members pose as prospective clients for projects they have zero actual intent to build? Really? You think this is the same?

This is not a little fib you tell some one about the reason you are running 10 minutes late for an appointment. This is a pre planned out fraudulent, deception, involving other parties to help you carry it out, and purposely intended to scam a hard working contractor out of his valuable time. Time taken away from his trying to make a living, or spending with his family. it's deliberate, planned deception. How do you call it anything else?

it's scary how easily some people justify why it's ok for them to be dishonest whenever they feel it's good for them. And this guy just keeps giving out reasons why he thinks it's fine to flat out lie to contractors. Does anybody think this guy doesn't lie to people all the time?

Here's a little tip for you buddy-- you are not an honest guy if you are honest only when it is convenient. Apparently you don't understand this at all, or don't much care. Judging from how readily you are willing to compromise your "ethics", and continue to spew your reasons why it it ok, I doubt you will even consider this. Within 2 seconds you will be mentally reinforcing the reasons you feel your actions are justifiable.


----------



## Jaxyaks

river rider said:


> I never said you should not do market research. The fact that you say "THE ONLY WAY" to do this is by setting up fake bids from legit contractors is just stupidity.
> 
> "IT'S NOT MY FAULT..." So you are FORCED to directly lie to contractors in your area ? FORCED to set up fake meetings under false pretenses ? You find this to be reasonable justification for being a liar?
> 
> "REMODEL.....WASTE OF TIME TO INQUIRE" So you are concerned it is a waste of YOUR time to inquire? With no regard for the other (assumed honest hard working) contractor you are duping out of his time by having them visit your fictitious site to bid your never to be built project.
> 
> So you equate me calling several suppliers, clearly identifying myself, and asking them for my pricing on project items -- to you setting up elaborate deceptions having your family members pose as prospective clients for projects they have zero actual intent to build? Really? You think this is the same?
> 
> This is not a little fib you tell some one about the reason you are running 10 minutes late for an appointment. This is a pre planned out fraudulent, deception, involving other parties to help you carry it out, and purposely intended to scam a hard working contractor out of his valuable time. Time taken away from his trying to make a living, or spending with his family. it's deliberate, planned deception. How do you call it anything else?
> 
> it's scary how easily some people justify why it's ok for them to be dishonest whenever they feel it's good for them. And this guy just keeps giving out reasons why he thinks it's fine to flat out lie to contractors. Does anybody think this guy doesn't lie to people all the time?
> 
> Here's a little tip for you buddy-- you are not an honest guy if you are honest only when it is convenient. Apparently you don't understand this at all, or don't much care. Judging from how readily you are willing to compromise your "ethics", and continue to spew your reasons why it it ok, I doubt you will even consider this. Within 2 seconds you will be mentally reinforcing the reasons you feel your actions are justifiable.




Nah man, your wastin the same amount of a persons time calling around getting prices from suppliers on material you will never buy, it's a waste of the other contractors time and yours to compare a remodel, once again, I was referencing calling a deck company, paint company, fence company, roofing contractor...something you can compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges...Im not justifying anything, and I'm sorry if it came out the wrong way and wadded a few. 

So if a guy is told 20 times he is %50 higher than everyone else on building a deck, he isn't allowed by the great ethics keepers of the world to give a deck company a ring or ask someone to give them a ring and see what the going rate is in the area...really...really...and I don't really need the tips..

Ya don't know me, and the internet has a way of twisting things sideways so I get it, no worries. I reckon I'll just go back to wrapping up billing and leave ya to fretting over my ethics the rest of the day.. 


And last time I checked a phone call inquiry isn't an elaborate deception....lol


----------



## river rider

Jaxyaks said:


> Nobody knows when they are being shopped, but I'm sure we all have been, I can usually tell, so your telling me that construction services is the only business that is not permitted to do market research? It's not my fault that the only way to do research is actually schedule an appointment and have a physical appointment. Again, I am not talking about a remodel, there are too many variables and it's a waste of time to inquire. But a question like...how much is it to build a 10x10 deck out of xyz, with xyz number of steps, etc is pretty straight forward and will let you know where you are at. Or 5 rooms 2 closets and trim 800 SF paint one color. Etc.
> 
> I'm sure nobody has ever inquired to more than one business to see if they can get materials cheaper or if their supplier is in line with everyone else..or which tire shop has the better price or to see if the one you are using is in line with the rest..I am sure no one has ever used those peoples time...All perfect angels...
> 
> Construction is a business...all business at least the successful ones do market research..why this business should be any different than the others is beyond me...





Jaxyaks said:


> Nah man, your wastin the same amount of a persons time calling around getting prices from suppliers on material you will never buy, it's a waste of the other contractors time and yours to compare a remodel, once again, I was referencing calling a deck company, paint company, fence company, roofing contractor...something you can compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges...Im not justifying anything, and I'm sorry if it came out the wrong way and wadded a few.
> 
> So if a guy is told 20 times he is %50 higher than everyone else on building a deck, he isn't allowed by the great ethics keepers of the world to give a deck company a ring or ask someone to give them a ring and see what the going rate is in the area...really...really...and I don't really need the tips..
> 
> Ya don't know me, and the internet has a way of twisting things sideways so I get it, no worries. I reckon I'll just go back to wrapping up billing and leave ya to fretting over my ethics the rest of the day..
> 
> 
> And last time I checked a phone call inquiry isn't an elaborate deception....lol



*- A few posts ago you CLEARLY said you and your family members regularly set up completely bogus appointments and then wait for the proposals to come in. And you gave advice to others to do the same. You stated you have no lettering so no one can tell it's a scam when they come to your house. This fully shows you were not talking about a brief phone inquiry. Then you try to back pedal in a few posts and try to make your meaning sound more palatable, and less offensive. ....You now say you were only talking about a quick, innocent phone call to a painting or deck company. What, do you think I forgot since yesterday? Why should we not deduce that these two issues are exactly representative of your character in general? *

- I don't call around and price materials I have no intent to ever buy, or reasonable expectations of buying in the near future. Why the hell would anybody spend the time doing that? Clearly you do try to equate legitimate RFP to suppliers I have accounts with, to you setting up hoax projects & soliciting bidders. That's a giant, warped leap of logic there. They are far from the same to me, and, I believe to most people.

-I don't think there was any "internet twisting sideways" in the communications. I think you are trying to twist it and downplay your earlier posts so you can continue to trivialize & justify your deceit --in your own ego, and so you don't look so bad to others.

-Apparently I did allow myself to get riled up by this. I guess because I find it offensive on both ends. You advocate and defend that it is ok to do this TO a contractor, and it is ok for this to be done BY a contractor. Guess what -I happen to be a contractor. And I don't want you to waste my limited time going to and bidding 100% fraudulent projects, and I don't like that you taint peoples perceptions of my trade. We all get a little bit tainted by perceived association with "contractors" like you. *Weather you can comprehend this or not, we do not all lie whenever it's convenient.* The blatant changing of your story to say it was all only about a harmless phone inquiry is equally loathsome. Contractors get a reputation for changing the facts on what was actually said too. Geez, I can't understand at all how that stereotype gets spread around? 

I spent too much energy on this already. Not productive. I think neither shame, nor puffy encouragement to be honest will have much effect.


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## BamBamm5144

Well I can say when I first started, I had my father in law get a few roof quotes from the companies I wanted my business to be like. He told me he almost hired one of them too. 

Also, I know for a fact someone shopped me once because I saw him leaving the supply house. When I walked in, asked the sale guy if he was looking at colors for his job and he told me he was setting up an account. Haven't seen or heard of him since then though.


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## Metro M & L

Anyone ever notice a difference between plywood at lowes and home depot? Its almost always identical. I wonder how that happens?


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## Spencer

Metro M & L said:


> Anyone ever notice a difference between plywood at lowes and home depot? Its almost always identical. I wonder how that happens?


Anyone ever notice the pricing on the guys who keep going out of business? Its almost always identical. I wonder how that happens? :thumbup:


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## Metro M & L

The confusion that arises about construction bidding is whether youre selling a commodity or a unique solution. As an analogy an ounce of gold is an ounce of gold. The price varies over time but the market is very efficient and everyone knows the cost of an ounce of gold that day. Now, a fine jeweler can take that ounce of gold and manipulate it in unique ways and create value ten even a thousand times more than the raw material. But he has to work very hard to find a buyer with lots of advertising and legwork to make the high profit margin.



Some guys sell commodities. You make money on volume, efficiency, low marketing costs, and repeatability.

Some guys sell unique solutions. They name the price they want and produce amazing products. But every job is different and you may spend a lot of time trying find people willing and able to buy what youre selling.


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## prolongroofcare

Wow, this thread goes on forever. So I'll add to it. The original poster commented on an interior painting job. Assuming that is his typical business he has some tough issues to deal with. A single college student who isn't registered as a business, pays no income tax or L & I is going to be hard to compete with if the customer doesn't want a real company. I'd pass on anyone that doesn't want to deal with a business. Find out first before bidding and let them know if that is what they want you can't compete and don't want to. Let them know you have fair prices, pay your workers so they can live, and pay all your taxes. 

Then you also have to deal with the crooks. They hire people as contractors, pay them in cash, don't declare them as workers, don't pay L&I on them, and many times get the customer to pay cash for the job so they can hide it from government. Again, you should qualify the prospect for this type of business. If that is what they want then they can have it. You need quality customers that want to live in a country where people work and pay taxes. If they just want to screw everyone then they are not your customer....or you should change your practices.

Tony
Pro Long Roof Care and Repair
www.prolongroofcare.com


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## EthanB

I haven't felt the need to do it but I don't agree that it's inherently wrong to shop your competition. I've been involved in other industries and it's a very common practice(which doesn't necessarily justify it). Business is competitive and it would be foolish to remain ignorant of a competitors sales technique and pricing because you aren't willing to waste an hour or two of their time. My business is what puts the bread on your, and my employees, table. It's what pays for college, doctor's visits and retirement. If I was in a position where I thought that two hours of my competitor's time could substantially improve my business, i'd take it. Actually, when I owned a retail store I did it frequently. I must have shopped a hundred other stores when travelling around the country, and I know that many stores shopped me. 

All that said, I wouldn't do it lightly or frequently. My goal is sell jobs. Those jobs are potentially lost income to my competitors. I can't say that I feel bad about taking hundreds of thousands of dollars away from my competitors either.

Just my $.02.


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## Spencer

EthanB said:


> I haven't felt the need to do it but I don't agree that it's inherently wrong to shop your competition. I've been involved in other industries and it's a very common practice(which doesn't necessarily justify it). Business is competitive and it would be foolish to remain ignorant of a competitors sales technique and pricing because you aren't willing to waste an hour or two of their time. My business is what puts the bread on your, and my employees, table. It's what pays for college, doctor's visits and retirement. If I was in a position where I thought that two hours of my competitor's time could substantially improve my business, i'd take it. Actually, when I owned a retail store I did it frequently. I must have shopped a hundred other stores when travelling around the country, and I know that many stores shopped me.
> 
> All that said, I wouldn't do it lightly or frequently. My goal is sell jobs. Those jobs are potentially lost income to my competitors. I can't say that I feel bad about taking hundreds of thousands of dollars away from my competitors either.
> 
> Just my $.02.


If I found out that a competitor wasted two hours of my time just to figure out what my pricing was I would make a point to make sure ....eh....yeah....that would make me angry.


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## rrk

Spencer said:


> Anyone ever notice the pricing on the guys who keep going out of business? Its almost always identical. I wonder how that happens? :thumbup:


How do you know they are going out of business? How do you know they are identical? How do you know you are more expensive? Just because?

The truth is you don't really know any of this with out asking for or seeing other quotes.


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## WBailey1041

Sidetrack: I've noticed that the most opinionated, stubborn and hard to reason with members don't post their location, biz name, etc. They also spend more time defending their position than contributing.

Here's lookin at you Jax. Oh' and wait for it.......Jeremiah.1234Somethingoranother


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## Spencer

rrk said:


> How do you know they are going out of business? How do you know they are identical? How do you know you are more expensive? Just because?
> 
> The truth is you don't really know any of this with out asking for or seeing other quotes.


Common sense.


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## BamBamm5144

Spencer said:


> Common sense.


While likely correct, there are some companies here who work rather cheap but the owner has set up systems to the point he doesn't need to be involved much and makes a good living


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## rrk

BamBamm5144 said:


> While likely correct, there are some companies here who work rather cheap but the owner has set up systems to the point he doesn't need to be involved much and makes a good living


Exactly, the business is set up for the work to be performed like a commodity. I slight reduction in pricing can bring in more volume which offsets the price reduction. They sub in another crew for however long until the backlog is gone. They are extremely efficient at what they do and the jobs they take, they do not take every job that they look at.


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## rrk

In public works construction every one knows what the others are bidding on for the exact same project. When the estimating is underway there are phone calls made all over the place trying to find out what the others will be charging. The day of the bid openings usually every one was sitting in the same room eyeballing each other or avoiding each other. Every bid was announced including subcontractors bids.


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## Calidecks

EthanB said:


> I haven't felt the need to do it but I don't agree that it's inherently wrong to shop your competition. I've been involved in other industries and it's a very common practice(which doesn't necessarily justify it). Business is competitive and it would be foolish to remain ignorant of a competitors sales technique and pricing because you aren't willing to waste an hour or two of their time. My business is what puts the bread on your, and my employees, table. It's what pays for college, doctor's visits and retirement. If I was in a position where I thought that two hours of my competitor's time could substantially improve my business, i'd take it. Actually, when I owned a retail store I did it frequently. I must have shopped a hundred other stores when travelling around the country, and I know that many stores shopped me.
> 
> All that said, I wouldn't do it lightly or frequently. My goal is sell jobs. Those jobs are potentially lost income to my competitors. I can't say that I feel bad about taking hundreds of thousands of dollars away from my competitors either.
> 
> Just my $.02.


I can smell those guys, I never give them a written estimate. Often times I get a landscaper wanting to know what I charge so he can do the job himself and use my numbers. The mistake other contractors make with me, is they act like they want me to be a decking sub, when in fact they are just getting my numbers, so they can do the job in house. Some get very angry when I tell them I don't enter into sub contracts I only enter into prime contracts. I've had some tell me "oh this would be directly for the owner", I tell them to have the owner call me. I don't work for owners with Project Managers.


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## EthanB

Spencer said:


> If I found out that a competitor wasted two hours of my time just to figure out what my pricing was I would make a point to make sure ....eh....yeah....that would make me angry.


 Spencer, this is business. Every time I land a job a competitor bids on, they wasted time because of me. I get where you're coming from but I don't agree that it's good business to intentionally stay ignorant of your competition, when it's appropriate. I want to stress that again, "when it's appropriate". I have felt no need to do it as things now stand for my company because I have many competitors in this area so shopping one or two of them won't really help me win more bids. If I were a major player in this market and only had one or two companies that I regularly bid against then I would definitely do it.

If you really feel that strongly about wasting the time, send the owner a $200 gift card anonymously. That's a pretty fair rate and $200 is a good deal for getting to learn about their sales pitch. The numbers can be useful but we've all discussed that other people's numbers don't matter that much. That's not 100% accurate because it matters a lot if your competition can actually deliver the same product for less than you can. 

I'm not a big successful business and I won't pretend to be but, if you look at all the well known brands out there, I bet you will see that most successful businesses spend a lot of time and money researching their competition.


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## Jaws

EthanB said:


> I appreciate your comments Jaws. You've pointed out what I would say is probably the crux of our different perspectives. I also grew up as the third generation in a family business and I was extremely confident in our pricing methods because we had over 60 years of history to draw upon.
> 
> With a start-up business and as someone that was never involved in bidding for another company, I frequently feel like I'm shooting blind. This site has been enormously helpful for me, even though I found it nine years after I started working for myself. Saying that other people's pricing doesn't matter isn't really that true, you can fumble around and change your pricing often until you find the sweet spot, or you can find out what the competition is charging. I spent years working for not enough money, or losing jobs because I was asking too much and I didn't know what the competition was doing. That was years of lost income. I'll never do that to my family again.
> 
> Businesses have standard rates, there may be a lot of variety in them but it's still a standard. You won't find many lawyers charging $50 or painters charging $100. If someone works for $20 an hour for the rest of their life because they can, when their competition is all billing at $60, then they're an idiot. Their employees and their family just had a much harder life than they needed to.
> 
> I used to spend 80% of my time doing fairly high end paint finishes but the work almost totally dried up. I lost 90% of my bids and couldn't figure out why until I had a friend, who did need painting, shop some competitors and also have me bid on the job. The competition had SLASHED pricing and were operating at levels I just couldn't survive at. It was the end of that kind of work for me. I could have gone on another 6 months without landing a job if I hadn't done it.
> 
> There are two more things to gain. One is that you can learn about your competitors sales pitch, that's a serious advantage. The other is that you might just learn that they are offering a higher quality product. That's a big one. Many of us build things a certain way because we are trying to stay competitive with pricing, we'd rather be doing it nicer but we're afraid that we'll lose the bid. For me, this is one of the biggest. I'm repositioning into decks and outdoor structures. I feel comfortable with my pricing, largely due to stuff I've read here on CT, but it never would have occurred to me that people would spend $20k+ on a deck if I had just gone into it blindly.
> 
> As I said earlier. I haven't had to shop my competition around here because I was able to find the info via other methods. I would if it was the only way to get the info I need.
> 
> I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just wanted to point out the reasons that some people will do it as I don't think they're shameful or bad business, if practiced responsibly.


Several things come to mind here reading your post. One is that your post about leaving money on the table for years reminds me of my dad when I was a young kid. He didnt price too low intentionally, he just didnt have any experience in pricing different. He didnt have a base other than my grand dads pricing, and he built good homes but cheaply, and didnt make much money. His years of experience was being passed to me at that young age and still is. I got to skip the pricing too low, so I can relate. 

The other is im from a small town, so I have a different perception than most who arent probably. :laughing:

I certainly am looking at it an a different light at this point, but still highly doubt I could be ok with intentionally misleading someone, personally. 

I have had the opportunity to look at a competitors bid during a competitive commercial bid and did not hesitate to decline. I certainly could of used the work. I also never trusted that owners rep who offered that again, ever. A little internal reflection probably concludes a lot of that is ego and self perception, but it also has to do with what I consider right and wrong. 

Looking at a competitors bid to undercut them and misleading your competition into giving your sister a quote for a deck arent nearly the same, its just the only thing I can compare it to in my experience. 

Something Metro said in another thread a few months ago makes me think about this a little differently. If my mortgage was overdue and I didnt have the money to pay my bills and take care of my family, I cant say for sure I wouldnt look at that bid. 

The dude who brought all this all up didnt sound like he was struggling though, just trying to take a short cut. But I can't put myself in his shoes because our situations are very different. 

I have a lot of respect for you, Ethan, definitely know your a good guy. Just different perceptions on this one, I reckon. :thumbsup:


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## rrk

The small town thing may be the issue. In the NY metro area there are thousands of competitors withing a 50 mile radius, where you live probably not. I think there is more of this in this area.

If I priced shopped someone else there is a good chance -
a: I will never see him again even though he is 10 miles away
b: he has done the same to me already
c: someone else has done it to both of us


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## Jaws

Ethan, what was your families business for 60 years? Just curious. 

Fwiw, im not the third generation in a family business, just the same industry. My grand dad and dad (his fil) split after 4 years. My dad shut his company down after 10 years and was a PM for 7 years, then started this company in 2008. We hooked up in 2009.


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## Jaws

rrk said:


> The small town thing may be the issue. In the NY metro area there are thousands of competitors withing a 50 mile radius, where you live probably not. I think there is more of this in this area.
> 
> If I priced shopped someone else there is a good chance -
> a: I will never see him again even though he is 10 miles away
> b: he has done the same to me already
> c: someone else has done it to both of us


There is about 50 legit GCs in a three county area of 40k people, so there is competition, but at all different levels and we all know each other primarily. There is another 200 or so who come and go and think they are contractors :laughing:


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## Tom M

50 GC'S In a county of 40K. I have about 25k in my 2 mile town and about 100 GC'S in myto wn alone. It'sa ve ry different world.


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## Jaws

Tom M said:


> 50 GC'S In a county of 40K. I have about 25k in my 2 mile town and about 100 GC'S in myto wn alone. It'sa ve ry different world.


3 countys equal 40k. 6 towns, 5 lakes. 

I was misleading in my post I guess, I mean 250 GCs or round about. I just pulled last years permits from all municipalities and talked to the main two lumberyards about how many accounts they have active. I am looking into it because I am the new membership chairman for the HBA, im recruiting GCs. 

I dont consider most of them GCs, that was why I said 200 think they are contractors. Most are paper boys in the worst way.

When Texas required registration in 08, there were 367 registered GCs in these three countys. When I say GC I mean someone with the capability and credit to build a new home or addition , or a major remodel. Not necessarily someone who should be doing those things. Lol


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## rrk

50??? In my town of 5k there are more than 50. 4 within 2 blocks of my house


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## Jaws

rrk said:


> 50??? In my town of 5k there are more than 50. 4 within 2 blocks of my house


 50 GCs in a town of 5000?? 

Assuming most are traveling for work?


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## rrk

Jaws said:


> 50 GCs in a town of 5000??
> 
> Assuming most are traveling for work?


80-90% travel 1/2 hr or more, and remember it's not like Texas, there are no spaces between the towns. We are all full up. And there are still contractors showing up from NY and PA

I travel 1 hr each way, some go up to 2 hrs into the city.


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## EthanB

Jaws said:


> Ethan, what was your families business for 60 years? Just curious.
> 
> Fwiw, im not the third generation in a family business, just the same industry. My grand dad and dad (his fil) split after 4 years. My dad shut his company down after 10 years and was a PM for 7 years, then started this company in 2008. We hooked up in 2009.


My family had a retail furniture store in Vermont. I think it totaled out to about 75 years when my stepfather sold the store a few years ago. I tried to get into it about a decade ago when my knees started giving me grief but, although I enjoyed many parts of it, I just couldn't see living there for the rest of my life.

I'm amazed at some of the numbers you guys are posting. There are probably a lot more GC's here than I think but it seems like a lot less. I'm definitely more a remodeler than a GC. Last year I think there were less than 30 home starts here in a town of 30k. Things have definitely been slow and we've had a lot of builders moving into remodeling since the recession.


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## Jaws

EthanB said:


> My family had a retail furniture store in Vermont. I think it totaled out to about 75 years when my stepfather sold the store a few years ago. I tried to get into it about a decade ago when my knees started giving me grief but, although I enjoyed many parts of it, I just couldn't see living there for the rest of my life.
> 
> I'm amazed at some of the numbers you guys are posting. There are probably a lot more GC's here than I think but it seems like a lot less. I'm definitely more a remodeler than a GC. Last year I think there were less than 30 home starts here in a town of 30k. Things have definitely been slow and we've had a lot of builders moving into remodeling since the recession.


Our focus is remodeling now. New construction seems to much like a commodity here now. We do a lot of whole house remodels and additions, some commercial stuff. Other than a 1400 sq ft casita we didn't build any new houses this year. Havent since 2011. 

Bathrooms and kitchens are where the best margins are for us, just cant get enough of them to make the nut. 

Furniture sounds like a profitable gig, but would get old quick id imagine. Thats a hell of a long time to be in business.


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## Easy Gibson

I enjoyed reading this thread.

I don't mind shopping other guys because there's a decent chance I'll use them for something in the future if I liked what they were about. I know it's been done to me and I didn't have a problem doing it. Life is long. If I make a friend by giving away some time/info I'm cool with that. It'll come back.

Real life example. I wasted a countertop guy's time no less than three times in a year. Two of those times were jobs I was 99% sure I wasn't going to end up doing. However, after those first three I knew their pricing, lead time, and professionalism, and I was able to hook them up with a job right before the holidays last year. So yeah, I got you for about 6 hours last year, but then handed you a few grand for being a dude about it. That's fair, right?


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## Jaws

Easy Gibson said:


> I enjoyed reading this thread.
> 
> I don't mind shopping other guys because there's a decent chance I'll use them for something in the future if I liked what they were about. I know it's been done to me and I didn't have a problem doing it. Life is long. If I make a friend by giving away some time/info I'm cool with that. It'll come back.
> 
> Real life example. I wasted a countertop guy's time no less than three times in a year. Two of those times were jobs I was 99% sure I wasn't going to end up doing. However, after those first three I knew their pricing, lead time, and professionalism, and I was able to hook them up with a job right before the holidays last year. So yeah, I got you for about 6 hours last year, but then handed you a few grand for being a dude about it. That's fair, right?


Getting a sub to bid work is different, but ill bite. 

What you did was not deceptive. 

As I have said before, I keep back up subs in mind always. I vet them before I put them on the list. 

If I schedule my plumber to do a small bathroom remodel and he cant get to it when he said he would, and I use the back up, the back up gets the next good gig if he does a good job on the little job. Im not going to waste their time on a small project and then say screw you on a good paying one. Ive only done it twice, my HVAC sub (long time sub and a client actually) didn't show for a small TI. He said he needed 3 more days. It was a time sensitive project and I scheduled weeks out. 

I used my back up. Because of that little job, I used him for an addition to make up for it and sent him a few refferals. I appreciated him stepping up, but for several reasons I liked my old HVAC guy better. The HVAC man knew then I wasnt kidding when I said dont mess around with my schedule. I go out of my way big time to make things go smooth for you, show when you say you will. 

The back up got more than a fair shake, imo.

I did the same thing with my plumber a year ago, and switched to the new guy permanently. 

My point is, I dont waste people's time. I want it to be clear to everyone I deal with. 

I dont show one sub another subs numbers. 

I dont show one supplier another suppliers numbers. 

If I am seeking competitive bids for supply or sub contracts I make that clear, and I dont ask anyone to lower their numbers. 

I am not perfect and dont pretend to be. But I dont waste anyones time or efforts intentionally. 

I expect the same. If a prospective client chooses another contractor, thats cool. I would be pissed if they used my scope of work and bid to give to a competitor. Thats why we charge for that, at least while things are good.


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## Calidecks

Jaws said:


> Getting a sub to bid work is different, but ill bite.
> 
> What you did was not deceptive.
> 
> As I have said before, I keep back up subs in mind always. I vet them before I put them on the list.
> 
> If I schedule my plumber to do a small bathroom remodel and he cant get to it when he said he would, and I use the back up, the back up gets the next good gig if he does a good job on the little job. Im not going to waste their time on a small project and then say screw you on a good paying one. Ive only done it twice, my HVAC sub (long time sub and a client actually) didn't show for a small TI. He said he needed 3 more days. It was a time sensitive project and I scheduled weeks out.
> 
> I used my back up. Because of that little job, I used him for an addition to make up for it and sent him a few refferals. I appreciated him stepping up, but for several reasons I liked my old HVAC guy better. The HVAC man knew then I wasnt kidding when I said dont mess around with my schedule. I go out of my way big time to make things go smooth for you, show when you say you will.
> 
> The back up got more than a fair shake, imo.
> 
> I did the same thing with my plumber a year ago, and switched to the new guy permanently.
> 
> My point is, I dont waste people's time. I want it to be clear to everyone I deal with.
> 
> I dont show one sub another subs numbers.
> 
> I dont show one supplier another suppliers numbers.
> 
> If I am seeking competitive bids for supply or sub contracts I make that clear, and I dont ask anyone to lower their numbers.
> 
> I am not perfect and dont pretend to be. But I dont waste anyones time or efforts intentionally.
> 
> I expect the same. If a prospective client chooses another contractor, thats cool. I would be pissed if they used my scope of work and bid to give to a competitor. Thats why we charge for that, at least while things are good.


It's illegal for me to show one sub another subs numbers here in Cali.


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## red_cedar

Out by me there are few permits required and only recently adopted building codes. Everyone and their brother is trying to do/ bid roof related work and for the most part the area isnt that affluent. I complain all the time about unlicensed/ underinsured/ contractors.

All you can do is market yourself to those who do not shop only price and put your best foot forward during the presentation. ( presentation and meet is a must for apx. $10,000 or so ) I found often times sitting down with the prospect and explain your proposal helps a lot. ( now I need to just do it more often myself)


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## illbuildit.dd

Mr Latone said:


> You have been a tradesman for 12 and in business for 1 1/2.
> 
> Work on sales skills or hire a salesman.
> 
> No guarantees from anything in this business, but sales and trade are two different skills.
> 
> The customer has to want to buy what you are selling. If they are buying cheap, that's not what you offer so of course you lose. They need to_ want _to buy something other than cheap.
> 
> There's good and there's cheap. Rarely do the two exist together.
> 
> Most people don't really want cheap, they want inexpensive. They still believe they are getting good. Are they?
> 
> The customer who becomes your customer needs to think this way.


I did door to door sales for almost two years long ago. I'm glad not everyone takes that rigorous training or else I probably wouldn't sell 99% of my jobs.


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## Maxon100

Maybe lower your prices a little but you can't compete with prices less than half. In the roofing industry we run into random low prices like that when someone that knows how to put on a few shingles wants to work for themselves or get some weekend work. They usually have no licenses or insurance so they can make a decent profit. There is one HUGE problem with painting though. Anyone with a paint brush and some motivation can pull it off, it may come out absolutely terrible but the homeowners will not know that until the job is done. Just something you will have to deal with in that business. Good Luck getting more jobs. :thumbsup:

http://stormproofroofing.org/


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