# Asking customer.."What is ur budget?"



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I can understand why you think that. 

I've never met anybody in the trades who didn't think they were the cats ass at what they do. I meet tile setters all the time who want my business who think they are the sh*t, but I ask them a few questions... how do you do a mud job? What thinsets do you use when you set glass tile? What is hot mopping? Tell me about the limitations of green marble?

Then they look at you like a deer in the head lights. HUH? But to themselves they are the best freaken tile setter in the world -- *when it comes to laying 12" ceramic tile in a block pattern on floors.* :whistling

So let me clarify and say it a little more politically correct -- I have found most people who have "handyman" backgrounds expecting to jump into high-level remodeling, that their skills don't hold up. I've tried it in the past, I haven't had anybody make the jump successfully yet.

Hey, every ball player in the minors thinks he is one game away from being called up into the majors. That's the way we are. That's what makes America great and what made us great.

Sorry Bujay, I should have realized nothing changes with handymen, they all think they are master builders and the only reason they haven't built a sky scraper is because nobody has given them the chance.

There are a hundred posts on here from handymen one moment ask what a return is in trim or how to make a crown molding transition in a cathedral ceiling, and then next complaining that they can't make the transition to bigger projects or figure out how to charge more.

It's probably just me huh?


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## bujaly (Dec 16, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> I can understand why you think that.
> 
> I've never met anybody in the trades who didn't think they were the cats ass at what they do. I meet tile setters all the time who want my business who think they are the sh*t, but I ask them a few questions... how do you do a mud job? What thinsets do you use when you set glass tile? What is hot mopping? Tell me about the limitations of green marble?
> 
> ...


Guilty as charged...


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Should we stop with the BS and get down to it? You came here for answers didn't you?

Customers hire handymen because they are cheap, you are frustrated because you as a handyman keep running into a price wall with your customers. Huh? Imagine that, what a shocker.

You keep wanting to believe there is a magic answer to solve the riddle but refuse to accept the fact that when *cheap* customers hire what they percieve as a *cheap* solution to their problem that they are -- (how did you put it? "Ef'n customers?") the ones with the problem when their *cheap* solution is no longer *cheap*? Imagine that? Sounds totally illogical to me too!

Good luck finding that magic answer. If you really want the answer you might just ask your customers the same question. Why did you hire me instead of _________Fill in the blank of the appropriate trade_____.

There in lies the answer to your problem. Of course you don't really want to hear the answer which will be : a roofer charges too much.. a plumber charges too much... a window company charges too much...

Much better to be in denial and continually frustrated by your "Ef'n customers" as you call them.:no:


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## bujaly (Dec 16, 2006)

Wow, you really do love yourself. I bet you pat your own back once an hour too.. LOL.. 



Mike Finley said:


> Should we stop with the BS and get down to it? You came here for answers didn't you? I asked one question, how many answers can there be? Unless you made some extra ones up for me..
> 
> Customers hire handymen because they are cheap (are they? whats the going rate in your town?) you are frustrated because you as a handyman keep running into a price wall (what is the majic number with this wall?, so i know to stay below it?) with your customers. Huh? Imagine that, what a shocker.
> 
> ...


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

mitch here handymen try to have HO pull permits and do the work. That part I am not ok with this is the reason I beleive why some think all handymen are hacks.


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

kevjob said:


> mitch here handymen try to have HO pull permits and do the work. That part I am not ok with this is the reason I beleive why some think all handymen are hacks.


I was in the county building office filing for the permit on our last job. An old guy comes in, wanting to talk to the department head on why his new roof failed its inspection. He said, "I own the home and got the permit, but I ain't no roofer." Well buddy, you are now. :no:


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Mike Finley does make some good points, whether you agree or not. And I don't sell handyman services, but if I did I would stress "Small jobs" done by a "Certified professional". I spend a lot of time trying to be the go to guy, then count in a couple of professional organizations, a few certifications and just flat out having been doing this for over 30 years. I make sure people know I have gone beyond "Handyman" stature. I don't knock the handyman, but I stress the point that I am a fully licensed contractor of 20 years in business.
Thats and more I offer clients and Handy Andy is not likely to do that. But I stick with the fact that I have met a few great handymen who could have passed for journeymen in a few trades. But masters, no, you gotta do it full time for that.


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

kevjob said:


> mitch here handymen try to have HO pull permits and do the work. That part I am not ok with this is the reason I beleive why some think all handymen are hacks.


Up here , in home renovations it IS the homeowners responsibility to pull the permit! They can pay someone (like the builder) to do it for them but it isnt the builders problem. They dont own the house. If i have a mechanic fixing my car , I dont expect him to pay for my insurance while its in the shop.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

kevjob said:


> mitch here handymen try to have HO pull permits and do the work. That part I am not ok with this is the reason I beleive why some think all handymen are hacks.


Sh!t dude, you know handymen that even know what a permit is????

I remember the last "handyman' I had working for me, he liked to do his handyman jobs on the side, he'd been a handyman for about 35 years and he had it down I tell you. He never pulled permits either, those were for suckers. The last side job I remember him doing was one where a customer wanted some french doors put into an extrerior wall on the ground floor of a two story house, (she didn't want to pay what some legitimate window companies had quoted either) something about a header or something I recall? Oh yeah, now I remember, it was the lack of a header that caused him the problems later, big problems. He fixed those problems with more drywall mud and then stopped answering his phone.  

He was the same guy that used to try to scab together crap on my jobs, like using 2 scraps of drywall instead of a full sheet because it was $2.00 cheaper in materials, and he was always more concerned with saving copper and sinks and faucets he demoed to make money selling them on the craigslist. :thumbsup:

He was finally fired after the last straw, when I found him nailing off door casing every 12 inches, which he called "I'm doing it to code, 12 inch-on-center". 

Good stuff. F&&king handyman/packrat, hacks. Same boneheads that will argue with you for hours that you don't need to put thinset under tile backer. Been doing it that way on their side jobs for years!:shutup: Jack of all trades, master of none is the perfect description, couldn't think of a better one.


-------------------

To be honest I really have no beef with handymen. :laughing:


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Mike


The Profesional handyman should do this full time for a living it is not a side job. 

They have to be licensed and insured here unless the work is less that 700 bucks. 

They do jobs that typically do not require a permit. If the handyman is part of a larger company, that Permit job, structual job, trade job would be refered to the remodeling division. If handy man is a small or one man company he would refer bigger jobs it to a company like me and I would refer him all the handyman jobs my company could not do.

Like I said I don't know about other areas but if you look up handyman companies around here, google a few if you like. You find Professional handymen not your construction workers doing side jobs for a few extra bucks

Not arguing but the Professional handymen around here have a good image


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

rbsremodeling said:


> Mike
> The Profesional handyman should do this full time for a living it is not a side job.
> 
> They have to be licensed and insured here unless the work is less that 700 bucks.
> ...


Let me start with my disclaimer: 



Mike Finley said:


> To be honest I really have no beef with handymen.


I'm sure there are professional handymen that are totally competent at what they do. Statistically there has to be. I know that Jessie who frequents these forums runs a stand up company of professional handyman services, we also have a few around here that are franchised and sure seem to be displaying a good go of it. However I have seen a few of their bathroom remodelling estimates, given to me by customers.  I'll just say there can be a difference between what is advertised and what they tell customers during estimates. The ones I've looked at all seem to forget about permits and they seem to turn into paper contractors when faced with anything beyond gutter cleaning, and their solutions are how do you say this diplomatically? Ugly and simple maybe?

Now these are only my experiences so mileage will differ.

I remember the other guy who I used to employ who was a 'handyman' type, he use to get confused about air tools. He swore that you're supposed to oil them after you are done with them instead of before each use. (I think he kept getting them confused with fire arms). He was in his 50's, been doing handyman type stuff for 20-30 years, but he had never seen an electric hand planer, never used a rotary hammer drill, never heard of Flotrol, never used a router, never used a dremel tool on drywall... 

I will say he was a great problem solver. That was definitly a good trait that he had. Most of his solutions involved bailing wire, glue and pop cicle sticks... but...

I'm kidding. :w00t: I'm just giving BuYah a little bit of fun since he got so incensed.

Honestly a licensed, trained, competent handyman has a place in this world. But a license, trained, competent handyman who can't understand why he gets resistance from customers in regard to projects beyond garbage disposal installation and the like is kind of silly. Kind of like a midgit not understanding why he can't get drafted into the NBA. You can tell him what the problem is, but he just doesn't want to hear it.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Mitch,

If you seriously want to know how to be a very successful handyman register at the JLC forums and search Sonny Lykos. Make a study of his posts and you will know how he did it. It is an honorable trade when performed by honorable men and can be lucrative.

He would tell you that in a word the answer is BRANDING. Arm yourself with knowledge, always continue that education and sell your brand. Never deliver less than you promise and stand behind your mistakes. 

Good Luck
Dave


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

DavidC said:


> Mitch,
> 
> If you seriously want to know how to be a very successful handyman register at the JLC forums and search Sonny Lykos. Make a study of his posts and you will know how he did it. It is an honorable trade when performed by honorable men and can be lucrative.
> 
> ...


Sonny passed away yesterday due to complications after having heart surgery about two weeks ago.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

DavidC said:


> Mitch,
> 
> If you seriously want to know how to be a very successful handyman register at the JLC forums and search Sonny Lykos. Make a study of his posts and you will know how he did it. It is an honorable trade when performed by honorable men and can be lucrative.
> 
> ...


Well said DavidC! I took that same advice from *you* a while back and it has been the best advice ever given and taken.:thumbsup:


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Greg Di said:


> *Sonny passed away yesterday due to complications after having heart surgery about two weeks ago.*


I guess you didn't see this the first time, or you didn't acknowledge it.


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Now these are only my experiences so mileage will differ.
> 
> I remember the other guy who I used to employ who was a 'handyman' type, he use to get confused about air tools. He swore that you're supposed to oil them after you are done with them instead of before each use. (I think he kept getting them confused with fire arms). He was in his 50's, been doing handyman type stuff for 20-30 years, but he had never seen an electric hand planer, never used a rotary hammer drill, never heard of Flotrol, never used a router, never used a dremel tool on drywall...


And the relevance to the vast majority of other handymen is..................... ZERO

You obviously don't like handymen, but why are you letting your own unhappy experiences dominate your contributions to this discussion?

John


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Greg Di,

Very much aware. I mourn our loss of him with everyone else and have posted regarding that here and on JLC. I'll be quoting him for a long time to come.

Good Luck
Dave


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

john elliott said:


> You obviously don't like handymen, but why are you letting your own unhappy experiences dominate your contributions to this discussion?
> 
> John


Hey, that's not fair, why would you say that? Didn't you see where I said: 



Mike Finley said:


> To be honest I really have no beef with handymen.


I want to go on the record and say I think handymen are fantastic. :thumbsup:


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## nj handyman (Dec 10, 2007)

sorry to hear about sonny. i have spent much time thinking of how to "brand" my company. i wish his family the best.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i agree with mike finley. i put the word "handyman" in my company's name and soon realized it was a mistake. i am now in the process of altering this name to something like "xxxx kitchens and bathrooms" because i get too many calls like, "how much to hang a baby chair?" really, how much can you get to hang a baby chair?

it's better to become known as an expert at one thing like mike does ( imho ). when he gets a call he _knows _it's going to be about a bathroom. he has built his reputation on becoming a specialist and can charge accordingly, i.e., he will get much more more money than i could as a handyman despite the fact that i have attended ctef several times for mud, schulter, and tile courses.

but, i will say, that as a handyman who studies his tail off ( especially enjoy building sciences ), i would bet a hundred dollars that i could get on the phone with mike, have him ask me ten reasonable questions regarding single family dwellings and provide the correct answers for eight of them. this includes plumbing, electric, tile, rough and finish carpentry, whatever. after tearing out two houses to studs and putting them back together, i have become somewhat competent at a variety of trades. but man, the learning curve sure cost a lot.

btw, i would fail the trimming of the cathdral ceiling, but then again, if faced with that problem i would buy one of gary katz' tapes and get the job done pronto.

having said that, it is important to find a successful business model and copy it. one could do much worse than mike f. :clap:


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

When the customer fills out the request for an estimate on my website it asks them to check one the following boxes. "What is your budget for this job, under 1000, 1000-5000,5000-10000, 10000-20000 etc." They always click one of the boxes! 

If they call direct I always try to schedule the initial appt. at least 3-4 days after the call. This gives them time to get their other bids and it also gives them a chance to call and cancel with me after the sticker shock from my competitors. I like getting that call, because I have just been paid in time from my competition. Plus if they do keep the appt. sometimes I can get them so comfortable they will actually show me the other bids. (only happens 1 out of 50 or so, but it does happen if you are clever enough). 

After doing this for so long though I have pretty much figured out where my competitors pricing comes in at anyway. It's nice to see it in writing from time to time though. Sometimes I will offer to buy their written estimates after I finish their job for 20 bucks each and they usually comply. (I know, I know. Let the flaming begin,I really don't care.)This has been a good way to keep on top of the competitors rates over the years. 

Having said all that, my thought process has always been to give a great service at a great value. If they feel like they got a good deal then you have a good customer in your drip system for life. Don't get me wrong though, you don't want to leave any money on the table. Just the appearence that you did is good enough.


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## bujaly (Dec 16, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> I'm kidding. :w00t: I'm just giving BuYah a little bit of fun since he got so incensed.


Where in this thread did I become so irate, that I unleashed the wrath of anger:furious: through my fingertips onto the keyboard Finley? Some of the **** you come up with just screams pretentious...



DavidC said:


> Mitch,
> 
> If you seriously want to know how to be a very successful handyman register at the JLC forums and search Sonny Lykos. Make a study of his posts and you will know how he did it. It is an honorable trade when performed by honorable men and can be lucrative.
> 
> ...


Cool man, I did. Is this site free to join or is there a memebership fee? I'm assuming that if it does cost, it's going to be well worth it... The site is very well laid out and the content of it is outstanding, at least from just browsing through for a few minutes...



john elliott said:


> And the relevance to the vast majority of other handymen is..................... ZERO
> 
> You obviously don't like handymen, but why are you letting your own unhappy experiences dominate your contributions to this discussion?
> 
> John


Exactly... Take the blinders off man... Guess you can't teach an old dog new...anything really, at least the grumpy old kind that bite.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Mitch,

The forums are free, same as here. You must register to post. Word of caution though, it is just as addicting as this forum.

Good Luck
Dave


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Because_ *I *_think the vast majority of handymen are worthless hack, jacklegs doesn't make *you* a bad guy. This is what you need to learn.

Another observation: Every single handyman type I've asked if they ever read Fine Homebuilding Magazine or JLC Magazine, have never even heard of them. :blink:


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## MattCoops (Apr 7, 2006)

I think I read an article on plastering walls in Playboy the other day.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

MattCoops said:


> I think I read an article on plastering walls in Playboy the other day.


DOH! 

I'm not even going there! :laughing:


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

MattCoops said:


> I think I read an article on plastering walls in Playboy the other day.


You read an article ABOUT plastering walls in Playboy???...
or you plastered the walls WHILE reading Playboy????


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

MattCoops said:


> I think I read an article on plastering walls in Playboy the other day.





Mike Finley said:


> DOH!
> 
> I'm not even going there! :laughing:


I went there for you....No shame in my game.


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## wellbuilt home (Oct 22, 2007)

I just pop the ? How long have you owned your home? Have you hired a contractor before ? When would you like to start ? How much have you budgited for your project? Most people will tell me some thing. Most of the time if the people have no budgit They are not ready to buy. If I have a budget i can sell a job they can pay for we are both happy


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## bujaly (Dec 16, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Because_ *I *_think the vast majority of handymen are worthless hack, jacklegs doesn't make *you* a bad guy. This is what you need to learn.
> I know that dude.. Where did you get that from? Go back and re-read..
> What you might want to learn is.... Is to censor yourself sometimes from just shooting from the hip; but rather read, comprehend and give answers based on what you have just read and not start throwing out assumptions AND answering your own assumptions on top of that..
> 
> ...





send_it_all said:


> You read an article ABOUT plastering walls in Playboy???...
> or you plastered the walls WHILE reading Playboy????


OMG!!! WOW!! That was too money baby!!:w00t::w00t:


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

This thread seems to have really gotten off topic and is going downhill fast. 

Let's try getting back to the topic as originally posted.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Where is it written that I'm driving the R.I.F. truck?


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## bujaly (Dec 16, 2006)

Double-A said:


> This thread seems to have really gotten off topic and is going downhill fast.
> 
> Let's try getting back to the topic as originally posted.


Alright.. I have one last question for funley though. 



Mike Finley said:


> Where is it written that I'm driving the R.I.F. truck?


Because you never actually comment on actual questions or comments specifically directed to you unless you can boast about yourself..:w00t:
Soooo. Reading is kinda fundamental, aint it?:clap:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

WOW! I just did a search using your user ID and got a list of all the questions you've been asking.

I now *totally* understand why you are so sensitive if someone questions the talents of a handyman. If I was you I would be just as embarassed too. My apologies now that I understand your situation.

Let me give you a great link: DIY Home Improvement Forums

Don't worry man, your secret is safe with me. Shhhhhh....


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Can't We all just get along?:lol: 

When it's time to relax one beer stands clear beer after beer:cheesygri

I love you man:w00t:


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

wow, finly you truley are a choad lick of the highest order, I've seen some of the most mentally retarded crap come out of you over the last 3 years of viewing this forum, which by the way I recall you being a handyman of sorts at one time or another till you figured out bathrooms was your calling. You think you are some kind of rennaisance man with your paltry 100k that you pathetically start a thread about and your long winded diatribes that have gone in circles regarding charge or free estimates, internet and website sucks
Funny thing is one of the guys I kitesurf with spends his winters out in colorado, every spring when He and his wife come back, for about a month he acts like a choad lick as well, after about a month it kinda goes away, so mabey it must be a colorado thing


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Wondering when the limpsaw peanut gallery would chime in. Did ya finally come out of your drug haze or drag yourself out of the bottle and get a woody when you figured you could get another thread locked? I've missed all your usual threads about being low-balled all the time, where you cry about how all the other contractors are unfair and are selling your customers decks, must be getting tough financially about now. Is this why your bitterness is rising to a new level caused by the stress? Back child support is a ***** I hear.  










You gonna grab a sesh today, bragh? Yeah, dude, surfs up!

I see you're still spreading your love around, I'm getting jealous I though I was the only one you loved.



Bone Saw said:


> in sorry to hear that greg. holes are no problem for me and its just as rocky here as where your at. ive regularly drilled 20-30 holes in gnarley ground in a few hours and cut out to grab a sesh, next day inspect and pour in a few hours and grab another sesh not even considering half the time i get a pump anyway . my opinion was merely pointing out the proverbial reinventing of the wheel at a greater expense for a not very nice looking end result at no revolutionary time savings . but i realize you just like to be contrary to every god damn thing i post here, whatever dude, i guess im the man


I see you made 4 new posts this morning. 3 out of 4 were tearing somebody a new one or condescening. Why don't you chill out and do us all a favor. Nobodies really interested in your drugged out bull sh*t and hate heaped on anybody who has their sh*t together more than yourself.


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

you truly are a delusional dude finly, not sure how you have come to determine that Im a drug induced burnout, could it be because I have a healthy appreciation of living an active healthy lifestyle instead of spending all my time posting here? your judgement of character is laughable at best. your lame comment about child support and my apparent financial health just shows you don't know what the hell your talking about. I'm not even going to waste my time trying to construct a play on words to make you look like an idiot, you do that just fine all by yourself.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

_First thing you need to do is learn to like yourself limpsaw, only then can you lose your hostility and begin to like others. I can only imagine the personal and financial pain you've put yourself and everyone around you through due to your feelings of inadequacy you harbor and manifest by lashing out at anybody you perceive better than yourself._​-- Hey man, stuff like that costs most people $150 a session. No charge for that one. You have a good day, get yourself a sesh in there kiteboy. 

Here's wishing you peace love and happiness, and hoping your dime bag never goes dry. :thumbsup:


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> _First thing you need to do is learn to like yourself limpsaw, only then can you lose your hostility and begin to like others. I can only imagine the personal and financial pain you've put yourself and everyone around you through due to your feelings of inadequacy you harbor and manifest by lashing out at anybody you perceive better than yourself._​-- Hey man, stuff like that costs most people $150 a session. No charge for that one. You have a good day, get yourself a sesh in there kiteboy.
> 
> Here's wishing you peace love and happiness, and hoping your dime bag never goes dry. :thumbsup:


pathetic, truley pathetic:wacko:




like I've said before finly, face to face, not only would you not be talking like that to me, but you be spoon fed your own words boot. you should spend less time *trying* to be an @$$hole and get a hobby too, and you'll find the hostility taking a back seat


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

I think anybody who could do all this-

_Demo – understanding how to accomplish controlled demolition efficiently and safely, understanding the framing inside walls, electrical and plumbing inside wall, understanding how to remove showers, shower pans, bathtubs, cabinets, sinks, faucets and other finished materials in a bathroom. 
Framing– walls, knee walls, shower structures, bathtub decks, soffit building, wood and steel studs 
Blocking – for shower doors, bathtub doors, grab bars and plumbing fixtures 
Drywall – Hanging, Taping & Finishing, Repairs 
Texture – Matching and applying new : Stomp, Knock Down, Orange Peal 
Painting – prep, caulking, priming, wall & ceiling coats, trim, doors 
Tile – installing tile under-layments – Hardi Backer, DensShield, mixing thinsets, sealing tile 
Trim and finish carpentry – base, casing, crown 
Cabinet Installation – joining individual cabinet boxes, installation, protecting from damage 
Carpet – cutting existing carpeting, butting to new tile bathroom flooring 
Counter tops – Installation of Formica counter tops, prep for solid surface counter tops 
Windows – installation, removal, glass block window installations 
Doors – installation of pre-hung door, new slab, pocket door and locksets 
Plumbing – setting toilets, sinks, bathtubs, shower pans, pedestal sink installation, connecting faucets & drains, trimming shower & bath valves 
Electrical – installing light fixtures, switching out outlets, switches, trimming outlets 
Exhaust fans – removal, installations of new fans, change outs of existing, running fan duct work, exterior venting. 
HVAC – thermostat installation, wall heater units 
Accessories – installation of mirrors, med cabs, towel bars, toilet paper holders, shelving _

would be proud to call himself a handyman. What else could you call a guy who could do all that?

John


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## Zafar Ahmed (Apr 23, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> Talk about their project ... blah, blah blah, blah blah blah...
> 
> ... have you and your husband discussed a budget for this project?


Simple as that :thumbup:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Mike, maybe you could think about
trying on Chris' moccasins.
You have spent some time reading 
back posts, read a few more of his.

Ego seems to be in no short supply
on here, or any where in the trades
that I've noticed in my own short time.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

neolitic said:


> Mike, maybe you could think about
> trying on Chris' moccasins.


Good advice, it goes both ways. I'll fed ex a pair of mine out to kiteboy for a day and see if he can fill them. I have a feeling he'd be screaming for a sesh after about 6 minutes after he discovers for the first time what adults do all day.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Take it to the PM or e-mail please, if you guys still want to continue this discussion.

Ed


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