# Icor nu-22b



## TimberlineMD (Jan 15, 2008)

With the price of r-22 going through the roof ($461 per 30#) is anyone using any of the 'direct replacements' yet. I have read some of the manufactures specs and I can see that there may be a issue with the seals inside shrinking and therefore leaking. Being in heat pump land I'm thinking that RV seals, accumalators/recievers could be at risk. Therefore I need to form a company policy as to whether or not I will do retros or just replace the equipment. 

I can stay with r-22 for awhile, but at the retail price I would be selling at, I can't see the up side. I can see only a angry consumer.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Just means the profit margin on refrigerant is going to need to go down. If you mark up at the same rate, folks will go on-line, find out the price, and then publicly call you out. Also, now, we need to know where every ounce goes, as it all needs to be accounted for . Not crazy about where the price is going, but the only other option is to go south of the border and form a r-22 cartel.


----------



## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

flashheatingand said:


> Just means the profit margin on refrigerant is going to need to go down. If you mark up at the same rate, folks will go on-line, find out the price, and then publicly call you out. Also, now, we need to know where every ounce goes, as it all needs to be accounted for . Not crazy about where the price is going, but the only other option is to go south of the border and form a r-22 cartel.


They can call a contractor out all they want. Mark up is mark up. its needed to stay in business, and to keep an inventory. 

While I reuse their refrigerant when I have to open the system. When I have to use virgin R22, I mark it up the same as always. No reason for me to make a lower % on it.

Its one of the nice things about being flat rate. No break out of material cost.


----------



## ral62 (May 1, 2012)

You can use 407c I believe is the standard retrofit for r-22 and now they can out and said r-422d is the replacement with out changing the seals. Problem to me is will the system still be under warranty. I would check with the compressor manufactures like Copeland, etc. and see if they would honor the new refrigerate.


----------



## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

R407C needs POE oil. Most old R22 systems will have mineral oil, some newer ones will have alkabenzene. Many new R22 compressors are coming with POE oil. So you have to look at the compressor to see with oil it has to knw what refrigerant you can use.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

beenthere said:


> They can call a contractor out all they want. Mark up is mark up. its needed to stay in business, and to keep an inventory.
> 
> While I reuse their refrigerant when I have to open the system. When I have to use virgin R22, I mark it up the same as always. No reason for me to make a lower % on it.
> 
> Its one of the nice things about being flat rate. No break out of material cost.


I don't think anybody has a problem with the concept of mark-up. Nor do customers have a problem with us making a profit. The question is how much. I remember going on a gallery walk with the Mrs. and her friends. There was some pieces that looked nice and all, but, $800. The response was, "I don't know much about art, but I do know about $800".

In this day when hvac contractors are a dime a dozen, and internet support and information is readily available, it is even more critical to be "liked". Some of these flat rate books have crazy #'s that seem quite out of line. 

A customer mentioned how he was charged $225 for a flame sensor + the service call. Someone else mentioned $800 for an inducer motor (installed). Both mentioned to me how much the part cost on-line. 

Most folks will pay the crazy number today, but they wont call next time. Which I think is a critical factor in surviving.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

In regards to the increasing cost of r-22. I don't understand why, if one had a profit of $1 a pound for r-22 last year, the profit turns to $2 dollars a pound. Many can understand the end user paying for the increased cost of materials, but, they are going to have a sour taste, when they do the math, and realize the profits have increased as well.


----------



## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

flashheatingand said:


> In regards to the increasing cost of r-22. I don't understand why, if one had a profit of $1 a pound for r-22 last year, the profit turns to $2 dollars a pound. Many can understand the end user paying for the increased cost of materials, but, they are going to have a sour taste, when they do the math, and realize the profits have increased as well.


The profit has to increase. 

Lets say you bought 3 jugs of R22 at 410 bucks per. But you only make 60 bucks net profit on each jug, over say the course of 6 months. Now you go and buy 3 more jugs, at a cost of 500 bucks per jug. Your 90 bucks in the hole, even though your books show you made a profit of 180 bucks on the first 3 jugs.

Remember, were sitting on that money until we sell the refrigerant, or what ever part. We're not making interest on the money the part or refrigerant cost us, while its sitting in the truck.

On average, I have 1500 bucks worth of refrigerant(wholesale cost) alone sitting in the truck. With no way to know for sure how much it will cost to replace it when I need to. I may not use a drop of refrigerant on any call for 3 weeks, and then I may go through 60 or 90 pounds in one week. Or on one call depending on the customer.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

I see where you are coming from, but, why does the profit need to increase. Yeah, you are 90 in the hole when you pick up the jugs, but you will get your cash back and still make another 60. I understand how your reasoning makes practical business sense. 

But these costs are going up too drastically, and, I do believe there is a ceiling for the price of refrigerant. Many customers are going to do either do without, and/or buy a window shaker. That will be a no-win situation for us.


----------



## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

Tends to get people to have their leaking system repaired so it doesn't leak anymore, instead of just topping off the charge every year.

Many of them will just buy a new R410A system.

Many of the people that claim not to be able to afford the price of something. Also tend to be able to afford that 100 buck a month cell phone, 80 bucks a week out drinking, 60 bucks a week on lottery tickets, 60 dollar Xbox live games, etc. If they want to go out and by a window shake so they also have to go out and buy a 120 dollar Turtle Dove head set so they can hear their Xbox game, so be it. And when the electric company turns their power off cause they couldn't afford the electric bill from those window shakers. Someone else will buy the house and pay to have the system fixed.


I've been to homes where the owner cried the blues about not having money to pay for me to repair ther heat or A/C. And when he finally gives in and pays while I'm standing there, he pulls out a wad of 100s big enough to choke a horse. Sorry, i just heard the old "ain't got a pot to whiz in" story too often.


----------



## TimberlineMD (Jan 15, 2008)

I believe that this will be the tipping point year in which I will be pushing new equipment more than the repair of older units. The trade mags are saying that this year will be the first year that there will not be enough R-22 to satisfy the needs of the industry. Time to change to 410-A.


----------



## accessheating (Mar 22, 2012)

I think most customers understand that being in business requires that we mark up our parts/service. How much is relative to a number of things outside of this particular forum- consider what value (as a company) you really bring to the table if the homeowner is explaining to you that they found the parts cheaper online... This issue will be ever growing and can be all consuming for a business like ours where parts are readily available almost anywhere. And, GOOD hvac contractors are not a dime a dozen as many seem to profess and believe. 

In the end what stands is integrity and honesty. We may lose customers who decide to have the other guys fix it, but we are ok walking away from that business.

As far as the R-22 replacement, it's yet to be seen how these chemicals really affect equipment operation and longevity, it hasn't been on the market long enough to make any business policies around...


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

accessheating said:


> In the end what stands is integrity and honesty. We may lose customers who decide to have the other guys fix it, but we are ok walking away from that business.


In this dog-eat-dog world, there are very few jobs that we are ok with passing. You do a good job for the Jones, and they tell The Johnsons, who tell the Jacksons...etc. Not that I am a bastion of business success, but w.o.m. has been a critical factor in the success of small one-man shops. You can't create much w.o.m. by walking away from jobs.

How is adjusting ones prices, so as to be less burdensome to the end user, compromising ones integrity? Only way ones integrity is lost, is when the starting price is extremely high, and then the price is discounted at a significant % when the prospect squalks.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

TimberlineMD said:


> I believe that this will be the tipping point year in which I will be pushing new equipment more than the repair of older units. The trade mags are saying that this year will be the first year that there will not be enough R-22 to satisfy the needs of the industry. Time to change to 410-A.


When a customer has a problem with their a/c, they usually don't want to hear "you are better off getting new equipment" they want it fixed right, and preferably at least amount that is possible. Yeah, in a perfect world, they would be better off with new gear. Some have the $ and proceed forward. But, if the money isn't there, then what? 

I will bet dollars to donuts, that in the border states, there will be a huge black market in smuggled r-22. I believe the epa should consider adjusting the quota on the amount of r-22 to be produced, as I think this r-22 thing really is going to burden many families. When they talk about being green, what green, are we talking about?


----------



## accessheating (Mar 22, 2012)

flashheatingand said:


> In this dog-eat-dog world, there are very few jobs that we are ok with passing. You do a good job for the Jones, and they tell The Johnsons, who tell the Jacksons...etc. Not that I am a bastion of business success, but w.o.m. has been a critical factor in the success of small one-man shops. You can't create much w.o.m. by walking away from jobs.
> 
> How is adjusting ones prices, so as to be less burdensome to the end user, compromising ones integrity? Only way ones integrity is lost, is when the starting price is extremely high, and then the price is discounted at a significant % when the prospect squalks.


Good perspective...


----------



## TimberlineMD (Jan 15, 2008)

flashheatingand said:


> When a customer has a problem with their a/c, they usually don't want to hear "you are better off getting new equipment" they want it fixed right, and preferably at least amount that is possible. Yeah, in a perfect world, they would be better off with new gear. Some have the $ and proceed forward. But, if the money isn't there, then what?
> 
> I will bet dollars to donuts, that in the border states, there will be a huge black market in smuggled r-22. I believe the epa should consider adjusting the quota on the amount of r-22 to be produced, as I think this r-22 thing really is going to burden many families. When they talk about being green, what green, are we talking about?


Last year I had a little old lady with a 11 year old condenser (heat pump)that needed a defrost board replacement to energize the contactor for cooling. 

When making out the invoice for the repair, I explained to her about the warranty I offered for the part. She made the comment that she expected that the repair would fix any future problems down the line. I told her that if she wanted that kind of guarantee, then she would need to consider a unit replacement. 'NO WAY' was her response.

Two days later the condenser run capacitor failed. I replaced it and charged her, but under protest by her, even after I reminded her of our conversation two days before.

Later, the same day, the condenser fan failed.

Now, I know that this incident is not common, but I did not get to replace the motor. She hired a competitor, which promptly told her that she needed a new system. They would replace the motor, with no guarantee. She paid them for the motor replacement.

One month later, another company change out her old equipment.

Trying to be a 'good guy' by fixing an old piece of equipment, lost me a customer and a major sale. I feel, now it is my job to tell the client what they 'need' not what they 'want to hear'. Let the 'chips fall where the may'.

So, this season is the season to push for the 410A replacement for any units needing leak fixes. They 'need' to replace, not spend good money on a 'dead horse'.


----------



## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

flashheatingand said:


> When a customer has a problem with their a/c, they usually don't want to hear "you are better off getting new equipment" they want it fixed right, and preferably at least amount that is possible. Yeah, in a perfect world, they would be better off with new gear. Some have the $ and proceed forward. But, if the money isn't there, then what?
> 
> I will bet dollars to donuts, that in the border states, there will be a huge black market in smuggled r-22. I believe the epa should consider adjusting the quota on the amount of r-22 to be produced, as I think this r-22 thing really is going to burden many families. When they talk about being green, what green, are we talking about?


You can thank carrier for the quota reduction. they are the ones that filed suit against the EPA because of the dry R22 units.


----------



## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

TimberlineMD said:


> Last year I had a little old lady with a 11 year old condenser (heat pump)that needed a defrost board replacement to energize the contactor for cooling.
> 
> When making out the invoice for the repair, I explained to her about the warranty I offered for the part. She made the comment that she expected that the repair would fix any future problems down the line. I told her that if she wanted that kind of guarantee, then she would need to consider a unit replacement. 'NO WAY' was her response.
> 
> ...


Had similar happen. When I have warned customers that since the condenser fan motor had been spinning slow for possibly a month or more. The compressor my not last much longer in the 18 plus year old A/C. So they should get a new A/C. They decide they just want the cheap repair. Then when the compressor fails 2 weeks later. They think they should get a discount cause I should have known it would only last 2 weeks, and told them to just get a new unit.

They never seem to remember I told them it could go out anytime soon.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

So, did you sell them new gear? Generally, I warn them of the age and condition. I give them a price for new gear, and offer to apply the labor from the previous repair, towards the new gear (one year from repair). The key is to not give them a "I told you so" vibe.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Sometimes we get burned trying to be a nice guy. But, the dividends pay off much better over the long haul. In your perspective, the unit should have been replaced from the beginning, she thought differently. Being CT vet's, we know it's nearly impossible to change somebody else's mind.

The way I sees it, you lost a major sale over a cheap truck stock item. We wont win in a pissing contest. Don't get me wrong, there are things in which we need to hold our ground. But, you probably should have given her the cap. Then, if the motor went out, she likely would have called you again, and you could talk about replacing.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

beenthere said:


> You can thank carrier for the quota reduction. they are the ones that filed suit against the EPA because of the dry R22 units.


Pray tell.


Dry charge units are an embarrassment to our industry. Major manufacturers getting off over a loop-hole. Don't get me wrong, I am not above a good jury-rig. But those units cost too much money to be considered a jury-rig.


----------



## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

flashheatingand said:


> So, did you sell them new gear? Generally, I warn them of the age and condition. I give them a price for new gear, and offer to apply the labor from the previous repair, towards the new gear (one year from repair). The key is to not give them a "I told you so" vibe.


I gave them half the cost of the fan motor.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Last year I started to use that leak sealant stuff. I always perform an electronic leak search at the coils and acceible arts first. but, if nothing, and, it's a slow leak. Now I recommend we re-charge and add the sealant. I will also let them know that it's time to prepare to get new gear for the next season or so.

By the time one removes the existing charge, evacuate, and add the replacement 22, the customer is not that much better off. At least, I think so.


----------



## Dr Heat (Dec 25, 2008)

there are drop ins that do not require dumping the oil you need to remove the R22 but then you are good to go.


----------

