# Paver Recommendations?



## InterCounty

Hardwood floor contractor who is looking to have a mason install a new paver patio.
I currently have a 12" off ground 16x40 deck that's at its life's end - which I'll rip out.
About half of it has an old concrete patio underneath it. 

I've read many poor reviews about Cambridge.

1.) Need a rec on a high quality paver? 

2.) Should the existing pad be removed? Options?

...also, if anyone wouldn't mind PM me a general sq ft rate - so I know what I'm in for, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks guys.


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## brickhook

Are you wanting a concrete paver or a brick paver?


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## 2low4nh

cambridge is a middle of the road product. they are good not great. techo is nice but about $2 more per sqft usually. unilock, belgard, nico etc are all decent bands. you can leave the concrete pad in place and do an overlay.


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## CrpntrFrk

We use Belgard.


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## JBM

Azek released a recycled paver that looks pretty good http://www.mason-contractor.com/bricks/azek-releases-reclycled-paver/


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## InterCounty

brickhook said:


> Are you wanting a concrete paver or a brick paver?


Concrete



2low4nh said:


> cambridge is a middle of the road product. they are good not great. techo is nice but about $2 more per sqft usually. unilock, belgard, nico etc are all decent bands. you can leave the concrete pad in place and do an overlay.


Price is not top priority. I want quality. Something that wont chip and look like terrible in five years. Another $1200-1500 is irrelevant over the life of the patio to me.

If we leave the pad, how is the install done on the rest of the area?
...and where does the water drain when it hits the pad?

I have a guy coming for a quote tomorrow so I just want to be a little bit educated.


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## natural1

Belgard or techo block. In my opinion techo block has more choices in shapes and colors. Although Belgard recently came out with more color choices.
I mainly use Belgard here in NC because a lot of suppliers carry it.


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## InterCounty

...


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## Eaglei

All concrete pavers dont live up to what they promise . They claim the color is throughout the paver but fail to mention that they fade and are a magnet for dirt . They are far from maintence free , im constantly pulling or spraying weed killer .IMO they . Natural stone and brick are alot nicer but you still have the weed issue .I'm looking into blue stone now to match my front porch . You cant clean concrete pavers with acids the way you can with natural stone . Needed to vent on the use of concrete pavers . :no::laughing:


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## Jaws

InterCounty said:


> Posted *THIS THREAD* over in the masonry section.
> 
> Trying to have a more-the-merrier consensus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...hope the mods dont mind :whistling


We mind. One thread per section. You want it moved?


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## Nick520

Being a mason at my own house andmy fathers house i chose to go with techno bloc. Granted it may not be the cheapest but through the years and past jobs it seems to have aged well. I would recommend putting a sealer down to preserve the brick. Some may say doing so is not nessecary, but consider it comparable to waxing your car. 

I don't know how big your concrete pad is, as you've said your looking for a good job and the money isn't as much a concern as is quality of work. Given that information I'd recommend removing the concrete and having your whole patio sit on on the same base throughout, just my opinion.

Bluestone looks nice for a cople years but it'll end up chipping away and diminishing layer by layer


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## Eaglei

Bluestone is used at many stately buildings for steps in NYC . Lasting at least 100 yrs , maybe your thinking of slate .I believe the thermaled or flamed bluestone doesnt flake or chip as easily .


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## NYCB

Unilock and Belgard are really good.

Both already mentioned but I thought I would add to it.


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## NYCB

InterCounty said:


> Concrete
> 
> 
> 
> Price is not top priority. I want quality. Something that wont chip and look like terrible in five years. Another $1200-1500 is irrelevant over the life of the patio to me.
> 
> If we leave the pad, how is the install done on the rest of the area?
> ...and where does the water drain when it hits the pad?
> 
> I have a guy coming for a quote tomorrow so I just want to be a little bit educated.


I have done them over a pad before, the important thing is that it isn't heaving or cracking all over the place, if the base under the pad sucks then your pavers will do the same.

I glued all the edges down with PL right to the pad using thicker pavers of a different style, then screeded very fine sand (think play sand) over the concrete and laid them as normal the thicker pavers on the edge allowed for enough sand under the ones inside to still have a good bed so they didn't wobble on the concrete.

You could probably just wet lay them too, but I imagine that is a pain in the ass.


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## CJKarl

I don't think my local guys carry Belgard, but of all the paver hardscape stuff I've used Techo Bloc is the best.


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## CJKarl

Techo is very uniform, can't say that about most of the others.


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## InterCounty

Well I guess I should rip the deck out first so as to get a good look at the pad.

Regardless of condition shouldn't it be concerning if an existing pad, that's half the size of the patio, is used as a base and the other half is not identical? 
So, should a new pad be poured on the other half, or would it be odd if a crushed stone base were put down next to the exitsting pad?

Also, while price isn't TOP priority - it does come into play if flagstone is 2x the cost of pavers. 

...still hoping for a avg $ PM :whistling


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## Nick520

Takeout the existing conrcrete lay the patio on one consistent base. Go with concrete pavers, I'd recommend techno bloc.mifnyou wan the look of bluestone and the durability of a concrete paver go with a product called blue 60 which a techno bloc product.

I will attach a photo of work I have done with blue 60


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## Nick520

Another example


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## Nick520

Natural bluestone for comparison


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## JBM

Nice looking hardscaping!


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## InterCounty

Seems like the consensus is Techo Bloc.



Nick520 said:


> Takeout the existing conrcrete lay the patio on one consistent base. Go with concrete pavers, I'd recommend techno bloc.mifnyou wan the look of bluestone and the durability of a concrete paver go with a product called blue 60 which a techno bloc product.
> 
> I will attach a photo of work I have done with blue 60


Looks very nice. 

Went to a yard and saw that blu and antique blu today. IMO the antique looked a bit dull to me, and I thought they were a bit rough for my taste. Kinda thought maybe my patio table & chairs may wobble if the legs were positioned on a high spot? 

I see they have a blue smooth in their book. Was no sample at the yard though. We're leaning more toward what their book shows as 'slabs' rather then their 'pavers'.

Does the patio in the photo have a gloss sealer on it?


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## Nick520

No gloss finish just wet from wash. And yes they consider it a slab.


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## InterCounty

Any of you CT boys wanna take a boat ride on the Port Jeff/Bridgeport ferry?


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## Nick520

Made that boat ride many times college roommate was from north port, that or pick me up from claudios we ride across fairly
Often can't guarantee I'll be in working condition


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## fjn

InterCounty said:


> Concrete
> 
> 
> 
> Price is not top priority. I want quality. Something that wont chip and look like terrible in five years. Another $1200-1500 is irrelevant over the life of the patio to me.



If you truly want quality,do not even consider concrete. The cement paste/ color wears away in a few short years,then you are left with an unattractive dull mess on your hands,i do not care what companies product you buy. Go with stone or clay pavers. A few companies that i feel make top notch pavers are Endicott Clay Products,Pine Hall Brick,Belden Brick,Old Virgina Brick,Cushwa Brick and Vermont Brick. Those would be on my radar screen if i was in the market.


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## fjn

Eaglei said:


> All concrete pavers dont live up to what they promise . They claim the color is throughout the paver but fail to mention that they fade and are a magnet for dirt . They are far from maintence free , im constantly pulling or spraying weed killer .IMO they . Natural stone and brick are alot nicer but you still have the weed issue .I'm looking into blue stone now to match my front porch . You cant clean concrete pavers with acids the way you can with natural stone . Needed to vent on the use of concrete pavers . :no::laughing:





This is some really good advice in my book !:thumbsup:


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## Eaglei

Nick520 said:


> Takeout the existing conrcrete lay the patio on one consistent base. Go with concrete pavers, I'd recommend techno bloc.mifnyou wan the look of bluestone and the durability of a concrete paver go with a product called blue 60 which a techno bloc product.
> 
> I will attach a photo of work I have done with blue 60


This is exactly how the concrete paving companies showcase their products in their brochures , WET:laughing: I guess they feel the need to water the concrete pavers to try to make them look more appealing, oldest trick in the book .:whistling Inter- County I learned the hard way , had pavers laid all around my pool and patio just 5 yrs ago . Im in the middle of ripping them out now , I was talked into using cambridge because they said the color is all the way through . They faded so bad they looked like regular dirty concrete . Before you pull the trigger make sure you do your homework .


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## Nick520

In my book of pictures they tend to be wet because the job has just been finished polymered and I don't have time to sit and wait for it to dry or to personally return to the job. :whistling 

If wet is the look you like put a wet sealer down. :thumbup:

Seal your investment, pressure wash it once a year and repolymer every few years and you will get great life out of it


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## Eaglei

Nick520 said:


> In my book of pictures they tend to be wet because the job has just been finished polymered and I don't have time to sit and wait for it to dry or to personally return to the job. :whistling
> 
> If wet is the look you like put a wet sealer down. :thumbup:
> 
> Seal your investment, pressure wash it once a year and repolymer every few years and you will get great life out of it


If thats the case Nick then it looks like you got the sealer all over the siding and natural stone wall and missed the face of the left step . :whistling


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## Nick520

I don't understand what your trying to get at or infer but I never said that I sealed either of those patios. If washing off with a hose a house which had been sided 2 weeks prior to my job begginig is a bad idea shame on me? Polymeric sand tends to require water.


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## Nick520

Did this one as well


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## Eaglei

Nick520 said:


> I don't understand what your trying to get at or infer but I never said that I sealed either of those patios. If washing off with a hose a house which had been sided 2 weeks prior to my job begginig is a bad idea shame on me? Polymeric sand tends to require water.


 I just saw your work you posted on another thread , very nice work .:thumbsup: By the looks of your work I see that you use alot of natural stone products , just don't know why you would prefer concrete pavers over nat stone . Also alot of masons here on CT prefer natural thin stone veneer over manufactured for walls . I know cost is an issue for natural stone , but quality wise you can't beat the real deal .


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## 2low4nh

if going over the pad drill holes through pad for drainage lay down some woven geotextile fabric use an 80mm paver on border 60mm for inlay. you can screed out poly sand or mortar sand for bedding. a proper crushed base can be used around the concrete area as long as proper compaction is done it will be fine. I agree clay pavers and stone are much better but usually double the price of pavers. you get what you pay for and that is the labor. Material costs are low but clay pavers and stone take more time to lay. I still prefer real but have no problem installing pavers.


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## Nick520

Thank you eag the natural stone products are beautiful no doubt about it and Thin stone veneer over cultured all day. Starting a good sized job tomorrow. New const, stone chimney. Not all that often these days i get to play with the stone hammer and chisel for a bit

It's nice to be able to pick others minds who are familiar with the ins and outs of our trade. Needless to say not many of my friends are inclined to pick up a hammer and trowel.


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## concretemasonry

The thin natural stone has a small place in the "paver" market, compared to the interlocking concrete pavers. Because of the small applications, the natural stone is probably 1/100th of the international use.

Each product has different criteria to use for the measurement of performance and acceptability.


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## InterCounty

fjn said:


> If you truly want quality,do not even consider concrete. The cement paste/ color wears away in a few short years,then you are left with an unattractive dull mess on your hands,i do not care what companies product you buy. Go with stone or clay pavers. A few companies that i feel make top notch pavers are Endicott Clay Products,Pine Hall Brick,Belden Brick,Old Virgina Brick,Cushwa Brick and Vermont Brick. Those would be on my radar screen if i was in the market.


From the little bit of online browsing I've done, we weren't really digging the brick look. As mentioned the TB slab look was what we were leaning towards. A somewhat tan color so the classic blue grey bluestone wasn't going to work.

Also - How do the brick pavers hold up in a North East freeze/thaw winter? From my limited knowledge I thought they were more susceptible to cracking.

I do want quality and price wasn't a 'top' priority ...but still a factor.
Just to get an idea, I had a guy price me out at $12 cement pavs and $22 bluestone.
On my 800sq thats like 8 g's. When I priced it out at the yard they told me on avg its about $3-$4 more over the pav's.

Why the heck would it be $6 more on the install?
...unless I was getting the "I dont wanna do it" price.


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## Eaglei

I install clay pavers all the time in NY climate and have had no issues with frost heave . If you really dont want to deal with the weeds and dirt and sand between the joints you can lay them over a concrete slab set in mortar and then fill the joints with mortar .This is the old school way and if done properly will last a life time .Thats quality but expensive today . The reason most masons up charge for natural stone is because its more labor intensive to install . The pavers tend to be different thicknesses for the stone , not so much for the clay pavers .Some good info here at johnstonandrhodes.com


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## InterCounty

Yeah weeds aint that big of an issue. Ground clear 1x a season - 20mins?



Eaglei said:


> more labor intensive to install .


$1600/day more in labor? 
I was told 5-6 days on 800sq.

Anyway, *wife* doesn't like the formal look/color of bs and doesnt want brick due to smaller size.
So guess what's _not_ going in my backyard? 

How does it go? "Happy wife..."


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## JBM

InterCounty said:


> From the little bit of online browsing I've done, we weren't really digging the brick look. As mentioned the TB slab look was what we were leaning towards. A somewhat tan color so the classic blue grey bluestone wasn't going to work.
> 
> Also - How do the brick pavers hold up in a North East freeze/thaw winter? From my limited knowledge I thought they were more susceptible to cracking.
> 
> I do want quality and price wasn't a 'top' priority ...but still a factor.
> Just to get an idea, I had a guy price me out at $12 cement pavs and $22 bluestone.
> On my 800sq thats like 8 g's. When I priced it out at the yard they told me on avg its about $3-$4 more over the pav's.
> 
> Why the heck would it be $6 more on the install?
> ...unless I was getting the "I dont wanna do it" price.


Materials x3 or x2, whatever it is. The more expensive the material the higher it costs to put it in.


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## 2low4nh

agreed I have done pavers as low as 1/3 the cost of nat stone. the plus of pavers is a ver uniform surface that is still allowed to move and shift with the freeze thaw cycle. poly sand helps out a lot with weeds. Avers have come a long way even in my short life. they are getting stronger with better colors textures patterns etc. they have a place in the market now for sure.


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