# News from a State with No Licensing or Bonding



## RMC9 (Feb 24, 2014)

Does this still happen in states with licensing and bonding?

http://www.necn.com/news/business/M...er-Homeowners-Left-in-the-Cold-283761101.html


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Yes.


----------



## Mr Knucklehead (May 31, 2014)

RMC9 said:


> Does this still happen in states with licensing and bonding?
> 
> http://www.necn.com/news/business/M...er-Homeowners-Left-in-the-Cold-283761101.html


What's your point? 

Criminals are everywhere regardless of laws, regulations and licensing.


----------



## Windwash (Dec 23, 2007)

The guy probably could have made a real good living as a salesman for a legit company if he's able to sell hundreds of furnace conversions and pocket the deposit money.


----------



## RMC9 (Feb 24, 2014)

Mr Knucklehead said:


> What's your point?
> 
> Criminals are everywhere regardless of laws, regulations and licensing.


All the pros here constantly cry for licensing but I'm with you, a criminal is a criminal. Just looking for your guys input from states that have licensing.


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

200 customers, deposits between $1500 and $3000. That's a pretty good living for doing no work.

The gas company is going to repay the deposits to the HOs.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

RMC9 said:


> All the pros here constantly cry for licensing but I'm with you, a criminal is a criminal. Just looking for your guys input from states that have licensing.


The difference between an unlicensed thief and a licensed thief is the state has more info on the licensed thief. Fingerprints, etc. may be easier to find. Not always but maybe.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

RMC9 said:


> Does this still happen in states with licensing and bonding?
> 
> http://www.necn.com/news/business/M...er-Homeowners-Left-in-the-Cold-283761101.html


Having a drivers license hasn't stopped accidents or criminals behind the wheel either. Do you think a drivers license is unnecessary? Just a question.


----------



## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Californiadecks said:


> . Do you think a drivers license is unnecessary? Just a question.


You're kidding right???

There are millions (with millions more on the way here) of illegals driving here in the US , all day, every day without drivers licenses'. 

So No, it's obviously not "necessary" to have a DL to operate a vehicle.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Brickie said:


> You're kidding right???
> 
> There are millions (with millions more on the way here) of illegals driving here in the US , all day, every day without drivers licenses'.
> 
> So No, it's obviously not "necessary" to have a DL to operate a vehicle.


Using your logic red lights don't stop people from running red lights so they are not necessary to stop at an intersection.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Brickie said:


> You're kidding right???
> 
> There are millions (with millions more on the way here) of illegals driving here in the US , all day, every day without drivers licenses'.
> 
> So No, it's obviously not "necessary" to have a DL to operate a vehicle.


What about airline pilots? A license isn't necessary to operate a plane. But wouldn't you feel more comfortable knowing he had a license and went through the minimal training necessary to obtain that license? Not gauranteed but better if he had the training.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

RMC9 said:


> Does this still happen in states with licensing and bonding?
> 
> http://www.necn.com/news/business/M...er-Homeowners-Left-in-the-Cold-283761101.html


Does this still happen in states with red lights at intersections?


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> What about airline pilots? A license isn't necessary to operate a plane. But wouldn't you feel more comfortable knowing he had a license and went through the minimal training necessary to obtain that license? Not gauranteed but better if he had the training.


I still don't get the comparison to drivers license and contractor license. It's just not comparable. 

Every single city or county has permits and codes. If I follow the codes and aquire permits why do I need a license? 

Licenses are just another layer of unnecessary bureaucracy and government regulation. People need to take responsibility for their choices.

If someone hires a contractor without checking insurance, wc, and when the last time they pulled a permit, then they deserve what they get.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I still don't get the comparison to drivers license and contractor license. It's just not comparable.
> 
> Every single city or county has permits and codes. If I follow the codes and aquire permits why do I need a license?
> 
> ...


Ok why can't drivers license be just another layer of bureaucracy and government. How about your doctor his license doesn't mean he will do a good job. Why can't that be a comparison?


----------



## RMC9 (Feb 24, 2014)

I wouldn't compare a doctor to a contractor in anyway shape or form. 8 years of college education to practice, compared to a hammer, GED and pickup. No offense to anybody but lets get real.

You might have a better argument as to why do real estate agents have to be licensed but not contractors. I am personally against licensing because I feel it is just another layer of regulation and revenue source that will hurt the 1 and 2 man shops. But if I legitimately thought it weeded out the crooks and hacks I might be more supportive of it. That's all I'm getting at. Business like the one in the paper don't do any of us any favors.


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Im sorry Mike I usually agree with your perspective but I don't agree with the comparisons DL and CL. To obtain a Drivers Licenses you need to be shown how to drive and what the Driving laws are.


----------



## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

RMC9 said:


> All the pros here constantly cry for licensing but I'm with you, a criminal is a criminal. Just looking for your guys input from states that have licensing.


 Licensing would be looked upon totally differently if it was economically feasible to enforce before or during a situation like that.Unfortunately,enforcement comes too late and not often enough.

Drivers,with or without licenses,are always being watched for violations,and fined accordingly.

Big difference in comparison!


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Anything that the govt does that infringes on our rights is unnecessary. 

Capitalism would sort out the lack of license issues, and possibly lead bullets as well, as there should be no firearm laws either.


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

DL is supposed to establish the ability to drive safely on public roads. Building codes and codes enforcement is supposed to establish the actual safety of a building, whether on public or private land.


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Licensing or no licensing, there are people who go through decade long careers setting up companies, ripping people off to one extant or another, and closing them down. None of the companies have any real assets.

It isn't a question of construction knowledge, it's just sleazy / illegal business practices. 

This particular situation is a little different. There is a big natural gas build out in large parts of Maine that has been going on for a number of years. The gas company works with licensed installers, to the extent they will tell a HO the installers in their area. HOs rely on this list to choose someone who will give a quality install. There have been some big delays in getting the main pipes run and having residential service started. I know of(meaning checked on pulling permits) several buildings with the piping run right by them that cannot be hooked up, because the towns aren't allowing it. You can't pull a permit, typically because they have a moratorium on disturbing the road for years (like 5).

It has turned the whole build-out into a mess. When the gas companies found out they were going to have problems with residential installs in some areas, they changed plans - this part was pushed out. Meanwhile, there are plenty of installers who already gave quotes on doing the installations that are sitting on their hands. If they were counting on that work to stay in business, they're in trouble.

This particular contractor claims he relied on the gas company's schedule for offering residential service to set up his company and do the quotes and take deposits on the installs, then the gas company changed everything. The delays caused his company to go under - it was his entire target market.

As I noted above, the gas company is going to be refunding the deposits given to the contractor.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Ok why can't drivers license be just another layer of bureaucracy and government. How about your doctor his license doesn't mean he will do a good job. Why can't that be a comparison?


Again, none are apples to apples. In those to examples peoples lives are at risk without much oversight. There is no one monitoring your every move while driving and doctors freely practice medicine.

We have permits and inspections.

Please explain what other reason you have for requiring contractors to have a license.

BTW there is no general contractors license in IL. And I will say it just like I say it every time this comes up, buildings and houses are built every day here in IL and nothing is coming down around us. We are doing great without licenses. There are only a few trades that are required to get one.

So I ask again, what would be the purpose of a license in a state that is doing just fine without them?


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

RMC9 said:


> I wouldn't compare a doctor to a contractor in anyway shape or form. 8 years of college education to practice, compared to a hammer, GED and pickup. No offense to anybody but lets get real.
> 
> You might have a better argument as to why do real estate agents have to be licensed but not contractors. I am personally against licensing because I feel it is just another layer of regulation and revenue source that will hurt the 1 and 2 man shops. But if I legitimately thought it weeded out the crooks and hacks I might be more supportive of it. That's all I'm getting at. Business like the one in the paper don't do any of us any favors.


Wrong, this state requires a minimum of 4 years at a journey level so that takes about 8 years in the field. This has to be proven with w-2's. Compared to an unlicensed guy who has to prove nothing.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Again, none are apples to apples. In those to examples peoples lives are at risk without much oversight. There is no one monitoring your every move while driving and doctors freely practice medicine.
> 
> We have permits and inspections.
> 
> ...


It's never in any profession the license that makes you safe this is my point, its the training requirements to obtain the license.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Again, none are apples to apples. In those to examples peoples lives are at risk without much oversight. There is no one monitoring your every move while driving and doctors freely practice medicine.
> 
> We have permits and inspections.
> 
> ...


So your saying the requirements to get a drivers license makes you a safer Driver, doctor, etc. But this concept doesn't apply to a contractor? I have to say a balcony deck not built by someone with minimal training is very dangerous.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Again, none are apples to apples. In those to examples peoples lives are at risk without much oversight. There is no one monitoring your every move while driving and doctors freely practice medicine.
> 
> We have permits and inspections.
> 
> ...


We have cops and registrations with a drivers license. Same concept rather you want to believe it or not.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

A teaching creditential doen't make better teachers. It's the training requirements from the cred. That make better teachers.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> We have cops and registrations with a drivers license. Same concept rather you want to believe it or not.


It's not the same, not because I don't think it is, but because it isn't. Every job that requires an permit is inspected. You don't get followed, or monitored, by an officer every time they drive.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> So your saying the requirements to get a drivers license makes you a safer Driver, doctor, etc. But this concept doesn't apply to a contractor? I have to say a balcony deck not built by someone with minimal training is very dangerous.


That's not what I said. What I said is that you drive un-monitored for the vast majority of the time behind the wheel. You can't get anyone to believe that there are enough cops to watch every street and every intersection.

And I agree that a deck or balcony needs to be built with at least min training, that is why ALL decks are to have a permit and inspections. How would a license improve that process?


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> It's never in any profession the license that makes you safe this is my point, its the training requirements to obtain the license.


You do realize that you don't have to get a 100% on the test to get a license. That in and of it self should make the license process a farce. A passing grade gets you a license.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Just answer the darn question: If I have to pull permits and the work is inspected, what would a license add to the process?


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It's not the same, not because I don't think it is, but because it isn't. Every job that requires an permit is inspected. You don't get followed, or monitored, by an officer every time they drive.


 Do you have to have a license for electrical/plumbing/HVAC (mep's) in your state?


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

oldfrt said:


> Licensing would be looked upon totally differently if it was economically feasible to enforce before or during a situation like that.Unfortunately,enforcement comes too late and not often enough.
> 
> Drivers,with or without licenses,are always being watched for violations,and fined accordingly.
> 
> Big difference in comparison!


In a nutshell.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

oldfrt said:


> Licensing would be looked upon totally differently if it was economically feasible to enforce before or during a situation like that.Unfortunately,enforcement comes too late and not often enough.
> 
> Drivers,with or without licenses,are always being watched for violations,and fined accordingly.
> 
> Big difference in comparison!


I agree there is a big difference in comparison in the enforcement.


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

A license does really promise quality, we are a non licensed state and most of the workmanship is top notch, visit state regulated areas- Florida for example and the quality is not there. Not bashing Florida Contractors per say- just the quality is less there IMO form what I've seen.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Roofcheck said:


> A license does really promise quality, we are a non licensed state and most of the workmanship is top notch, visit state regulated areas- Florida for example and the quality is not there. Not bashing Florida Contractors per say- just the quality is less there IMO form what I've seen.


A teaching credential doen't make a good teacher either. Where do we draw the line? Again it's not the license that anyone better at anything, I agree, it's the training to get the license or credential that can make a difference.


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

I took the test and was Tennessee State Licensed Contractor. There are benefits. Financial requirements in particular. Business knowledge in general. Many people are great tradesman and lousy businessmen and visa versa. 

There are many "Paper Contractors" that rely heavily on quality subs and do very well but truthfully very few Tradesman versioned Contractors that can lean on anyone for business help- aside from Attorneys and Accountants. 

Kids benefit from State License Requirements because (from what I've heard) getting a license with back child support is not going to happen.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Do you have to have a license for electrical/plumbing/HVAC (mep's) in your state?


As soon as you answer my question, I'll answer yours.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> As soon as you answer my question, I'll answer yours.


I did. I said it's not the license it's the minimal requirements to obtain the license that matters. so I'm ok with no license but I'm also ok with having to be credentialed.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I did. I said it's not the license it's the minimal requirements to obtain the license that matters. so I'm ok with no license but I'm also ok with having to be credentialed.


You advocated a license in an industry that is already regulated. You didn't answer how a license would add anything to the permit inspection process. The reason, it's not needed.

What credentials do you need other than passing inspections?


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You advocated a license in an industry that is already regulated. You didn't answer how a license would add anything to the permit inspection process. The reason, it's not needed.
> 
> What credentials do you need other than passing inspections?


I'm advocating credentials just like electricians in your state who also get inspections.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

A license is just a piece of paper without required credentials. Inspector are here for 5 minutes to inspect an entire structure they may look at 5% of the job. It's nice to know your contractor has a minimal amount of training just like any other profession that requires credentialed people.

Electrical contractors having to be credentialed is ok with you even though they get inspections as well?


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm going to Unsubscribe. I have a dinner to eat.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I'm advocating credentials just like electricians in your state who also get inspections.


Electricians are not issued state licenses in IL.

Just because a trade is required to have a license doesn't mean I agree with it. I think that any aspect of a job that is inspected shouldn't request require a license. 

Although I do appreciate your efforts of equating the two.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Nah you just can't prove your point or answer my question. You keep pointing to other unrelated topics. Again, how would credentials or licenses add to a permit/inspection process.

Also a home owner could pull electric permit and do the work themselves. It only has to pass inspection.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Nah you just can't prove your point or answer my question. You keep pointing to other unrelated topics. Again, how would credentials or licenses add to a permit/inspection process.
> 
> Also a home owner could pull electric permit and do the work themselves. It only has to pass inspection.


you can't prove you're point either. Because they are opinions. A HO can do their own electrical here as well as pull a permit. the topics are unrelated but the reasons for credentials and licenses aren't. The same reason an electrician in your state needs to be licensed or credentialed is the same reason a GC needs it here.

A HO can pull any permit here without any creds.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> you can't prove you're point either. Because they are opinions. A HO can do their own electrical here as well as pull a permit. the topics are unrelated but the reasons for credentials and licenses aren't. The same reason an electrician in your state needs to be licensed or credentialed is the same reason a GC needs it here.
> 
> A HO can pull any permit here without any creds.


Rob, I contend a license is a paper representing 8 years of in the field experience, a test that was passed on labor law and trade and a background check to see if your a felon. That's what a license means in this state. Don't care about others because it doesn't pertain to me.

You can't say an unlicensed contractor doesn't have those CREDENTIALS and you certainly can't say they do. I can say they do here. It has to be proved with documentation.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> you can't prove you're point either. Because they are opinions. A HO can do their own electrical here as well as pull a permit. the topics are unrelated but the reasons for credentials and licenses aren't. The same reason an electrician in your state needs to be licensed or credentialed is the same reason a GC needs it here.
> 
> A HO can pull any permit here without any creds.





Californiadecks said:


> Rob, I contend a license is a paper representing 8 years of in the field experience, a test that was passed on labor law and trade and a background check to see if your a felon. That's what a license means in this state. Don't care about others because it doesn't pertain to me.
> 
> You can't say an unlicensed contractor doesn't have those CREDENTIALS and you certainly can't say they do. I can say they do here. It has to be proved with documentation.



I sure as hell can, and already have. There is no need for it, NONE!!! We build and remodel in this state without them and things are just fine. It is completely unnecessary. There is no epidemic of houses collapsing or catching fire. It's just not the case. How can you explain our success without them? You can't.

Also, you have to prove your point. You are the one advocating for more regulation. Prove that it is needed. Convince me that I need to have 8 years of experience to get a license to do what I am already doing successfully.

BTW:

Electricians are not licensed by the state but by local municipalities and to varying degrees. Again, arbitrary rules.

HVAC are the same as electricians.

Plumbers are licensed by Public Health Department.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> you can't prove you're point either. Because they are opinions. A HO can do their own electrical here as well as pull a permit. the topics are unrelated but the reasons for credentials and licenses aren't. The same reason an electrician in your state needs to be licensed or credentialed is the same reason a GC needs it here.
> 
> A HO can pull any permit here without any creds.


It's not unrelated. It proves the point. If a home owner can do their own work without a license or credentials, why can't I? Because they are assuming the risk. Well, when I enter into a contract I am sharing the risk with the HO. They should check out my background and determine if I am legit. They should take the time and do their homework before they just hire someone.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It's not unrelated. It proves the point. If a home owner can do their own work without a license or credentials, why can't I? Because they are assuming the risk. Well, when I enter into a contract I am sharing the risk with the HO. They should check out my background and determine if I am legit. They should take the time and do their homework before they just hire someone.


Licensing in any profession hasn't kept the public from being screwed. So why wouldn't your logic apply to all Professions in America?


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Licensing in any profession hasn't kept the public from being screwed. So why wouldn't your logic apply to all Professions in America?


So you are still going this route of going off topic. The topic was the need for licensing.

Can you, for the last time, explain how we in IL ever survive without a GC license?

As for your questions, I will answer it again. We don't need a license because our work is inspected and permitted, that is not the case with driving and doctors. See the above question as proof.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> So you are still going this route of going off topic. The topic was the need for licensing.
> 
> Can you, for the last time, explain how we in IL ever survive without a GC license?
> 
> As for your questions, I will answer it again. We don't need a license because our work is inspected and permitted. See the above question as proof.


Yes its my comparison like it or not.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> So you are still going this route of going off topic. The topic was the need for licensing.
> 
> Can you, for the last time, explain how we in IL ever survive without a GC license?
> 
> As for your questions, I will answer it again. We don't need a license because our work is inspected and permitted, that is not the case with driving and doctors. See the above question as proof.


You could survive without drivers license as well. Right? Its my comparison. Don't care if you like it

You do understand I never said I was for any license. My whole point here is to show how a license for a contractor is the same logic used for any other Professions license.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Yes its my comparison like it or not.


But it's not apples to apples. You are taking away one aspect of the process as if all licensed industry handle it the same. Doctors are not monitored on every move they make. They don't have to get a city inspection of every patient before they can go home.

A cop doesn't sit with me monitoring my every move. Only if I happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time do I have the chance of getting caught doing wrong.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> You could survive without drivers license as well. Right? Its my comparison. Don't care if you like it


But it's just silly and ignorant to use it. It just proves that you haven't a grasp on what a comparison is. They have to be like comparisons. Please read any of my above posts. The industries are not handled the same.

And again, this is your baby, not mine. You are the one supporting a license. You can't back your point of view up by discussing other industries.

Please answer how we survive as a state without a GC license. My guess is you never will actually answer it because the answer is obvious. We don't need them.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> But it's just silly and ignorant to use it. It just proves that you haven't a grasp on what a comparison is. They have to be like comparisons. Please read any of my above posts. The industries are not handled the same.
> 
> And again, this is your baby, not mine. You are the one supporting a license. You can't back your point of view up by discussing other industries.
> 
> Please answer how we survive as a state without a GC license. My guess is you never will actually answer it because the answer is obvious. We don't need them.


This is where your wrong point to any post where I supported a license


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

My whole point is to show how requiring a contractors license is no different conceptually, then requiring other Professions to have a license. That's it nothing more and nothing less


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> This is where your wrong point to any post where I supported a license


Okay then what is your point Mike? Do you think a GC should be required to carry a license that proves their credentials?


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> My whole point is to show how requiring a contractors license is no different conceptually, then requiring other Professions to have a license. That's it nothing more and nothing less


But you are wrong in your comparison. If the industries were handled the same then it would be a valid point, but they are not. They have nothing to do with my industry.

My point is that requiring a license is not needed and just another layer of regulation and bureaucracy.

As for drivers licenses. Do you know why they were first introduced? It wasn't to prove their driving skills, it was to prove that their car was registered to drive on public roads. It wasn't until fatalities rose that they required the license to ensure basic driving safety. So they issued the license when there was a need. There is no need here. I have already proven that.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> But you are wrong in your comparison. If the industries were handled the same then it would be a valid point, but they are not. They have nothing to do with my industry.
> 
> My point is that requiring a license is not needed and just another layer of regulation and bureaucracy.


Do you want to go another round with the same chit?


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> But you are wrong in your comparison. If the industries were handled the same then it would be a valid point, but they are not. They have nothing to do with my industry.
> 
> My point is that requiring a license is not needed and just another layer of regulation and bureaucracy.


I think I'm right.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

So you are not going to answer yet another question that would completely implode your point.

Do you think a GC should be required to carry a license that proves their credentials?

Do you think that something should be fixed even if it isn't in need of repair?


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I think I'm right.


Thinking and being are two completely different things. Difference between you and me, I know I'm right.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Thinking and being are two completely different things. Difference between you and me, I know I'm right.


You're only thinking you know your right. :laughing:


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Your only thinking you know your right. :laughing:


Nah, I know that I know I'm right. You only think that I think that I know I'm right.

But nice diversion from my questions again.


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Long discussion, but if someone is a paper contractor and everything is subbed, what's the point of GC licensing if they don't do any of the building?

It would seem to be a barrier to entry that increases consumer costs and business costs as well.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> Long discussion, but if someone is a paper contractor and everything is subbed, what's the point of GC licensing if they don't do any of the building?
> 
> It would seem to be a barrier to entry that increases consumer costs and business costs as well.


Because he can do the work. 

That would only make sense from a states point of view if he was forbidden to do any in house work at all. In this state a GC is a critical license, meaning the state Board is stricter about proving your experience and require documentation. But a GC can also do 99% of all work in house too. Including all the other trades. I think I can't dig a well or build a road (general engineering). I think I can't do fire sprinklers either. However I can paper those trades out.


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

The reason a homeowner can do his own work he is the one at stake for loosing money- getting his true value. 

Being licensed homeowners rely on the governing office to prequalify the contractor. Financially is a big part. Can't afford to be in business maybe you shouldnt be.


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> That would only make sense from a states point of view if he was forbidden to do any in house work at all.


No, if people were forbidden doing work requiring a license for which they weren't licensed, which is how it is in every state I know of. Around here, that's plumbing, electrical, heating, sprinkler systems.

If framing required a license, I'd hire a licensed framing sub for framing. I only do the unlicensed parts, and some of them I'll sub out. I TRY not to do any framing or roofing any more, but that doesn't always work out, especially on small projects.


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Roofcheck said:


> The reason a homeowner can do his own work he is the one at stake for loosing money- getting his true value.


Codes and code compliance is till critical, since the house will likely be sold at some point. The buyer shouldn't be saddled with an unsafe house simply because someone had a "good" idea.


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

No builders license in VT. However there is in Tennessee. There, if you build a house without a license you must live in it for two years before selling. No renting it either.


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

hdavis said:


> Long discussion, but if someone is a paper contractor and everything is subbed, what's the point of GC licensing if they don't do any of the building?
> 
> It would seem to be a barrier to entry that increases consumer costs and business costs as well.


That's my take on it.

Here in MI, the then head of MAHB argued against the states' own code officials recommending increased attic insulation on new builds, The state ceded, and the old standard stayed.

Then, the same MAHB actively pursued the state to require 60 hours per year in ongoing education for every licensed builder. Again, the state ceded, and that is now law.

You have to pay attention to what the top carnivores in the food chain are doing and fairly gauge why they do the things they do.

Never do they do things out of concern for the consumer. It may turn out that way, but only if it increases their marketshare amd/or margins first. 


I'm not slamming them for that - that's the reasons corporations exist - to maximize profit for their owners.

In the case of additional education - that 60 hours represents 1 and 1/2 weeks of man hours that the small mom & pop builder have to take out of their available waking hours.

For a corporate builder - its not even a blip on the salary radar screen.

IOW, those hours raise the barrier to entry/increase the baseline operating costs especially for the smallest builder.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> That's my take on it.
> 
> Here in MI, the then head of MAHB argued against the states' own code officials recommending increased attic insulation on new builds, The state ceded, and the old standard stayed.
> 
> ...


most of my customers check the license first. It says right on the website that their recourse of action may be limited more if an unlicensed contractor screws up thier home, or breaks licensing laws. True or not, this directs those people to legitimate contractors in this state.


----------



## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Then, the same MAHB actively pursued the state to require 60 hours per year in ongoing education for every licensed builder. Again, the state ceded, and that is now law.
> 
> You have to pay attention to what the top carnivores in the food chain are doing and fairly gauge why they do the things they do.
> 
> IOW, those hours raise the barrier to entry/increase the baseline operating costs especially for the smallest builder.


What the MAHB & the State of Michigan did & what PLA's do is to severely restrict competion aka "rig the system".


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> most of my customers check the license first. It says right on the website that their recourse of action may be limited more if an unlicensed contractor screws up thier home, or breaks licensing laws. True or not, this directs those people to legitimate contractors in this state.


Legitimate? You mean licensed. I've been watch "To Catch a Contractor". What's weird is it takes place in...you guessed it, California. All but one so far is a licensed contractor.

So they got pointed to "legitimate" contractors that ripped them off. So much for being legitimate.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Legitimate? You mean licensed. I've been watch "To Catch a Contractor". What's weird is it takes place in...you guessed it, California. All but one so far is a licensed contractor.
> 
> So they got pointed to "legitimate" contractors that ripped them off. So much for being legitimate.


A license doesn't mean they're honest nor does it mean they are good, as goes for any profession. No one said that. But what is certain is an unlicensed contractor is not a legitimate contractor in this state.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Legitimate? You mean licensed. I've been watch "To Catch a Contractor". What's weird is it takes place in...you guessed it, California. All but one so far is a licensed contractor.
> 
> So they got pointed to "legitimate" contractors that ripped them off. So much for being legitimate.


Also what is certain is HO'S in this state are directed to legitimate contractors on the CSLB website.

Edit. However not all licensed contractors are legitimate if they are breaking the law. Is that better Rob?


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Legitimate? You mean licensed. I've been watch "To Catch a Contractor". What's weird is it takes place in...you guessed it, California. All but one so far is a licensed contractor.
> 
> So they got pointed to "legitimate" contractors that ripped them off. So much for being legitimate.


Another thing I might add, if those guys on that show broke the law, which most did, if not all, then they are not contracting legitimately.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

le·git·i·mate
adjective
ləˈjidəmət/
1.
conforming to the law or to rules.
So a license by itself doesn't make them legitimate nor did I say that.


----------



## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Californiadecks said:


> le·git·i·mate
> adjective
> ləˈjidəmət/
> 1.
> ...


As a matter of fact you did that several times. Re-read your previous posts:



> But what is certain is an unlicensed contractor is not a legitimate contractor in this state.





> Also what is certain is HO'S in this state are directed to legitimate contractors on the CSLB website.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Brickie said:


> As a matter of fact you did that several times. Re-read your previous posts:


No where did I say a license is the only thing making a contractor legitimate. I've had people contact me through the state Board so I know it directs people to legitimate contractors. I'm the proof.


----------

