# Public perception of tradespeople



## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

I've been away for a while but I was just talking with some home owners (not my clients...just acquaintances) and it's kinda got me down. Lately, I've been hearing more and more condescending language from people about us. I watch t.v. and they are doing a piece on the vast number of incompetent, low-life contractors in the industry. Insinuating that 99.9% of contractors are incompetent, scamming and blubbering morons.

Then I read another article about how you shouldn't trust contractors. How you should:
-Check their license
-Ask for references
-Call at least 3 references...visit them and visually inspect their work.
-Check with the BBB
-Demand WSIB clearance
-Ask for their resume
-Get atleast 3, preferrably 5 quotes
-Check their insurance
-Don't pay anything more than 10% down.
-Check their credit standing with vendors

And although I agree with some of the criteria above...we're talking about a friggin' bathroom job. You want to call and then visit 3 references? For the pleasure of a 15k bathroom job? But I digress.

Back to my point...there is no friggin respect for what we do. There is this stigma that anyone can be a GC, anyone can do their own wiring for their house, anyone can do their own plumbing, anyone can frame a roof...etc. All they need to do is pick up a Wiring 123 book from Home depot.

Now I pointed out to the ...ahem...acquaintances...that it takes 3-5 yrs of apprenticing to become a journeyman electrician, 4 yrs +7500 hrs-journey plumber, 3-4 carpenters....etc. When you consider the fact that you can get your MD quicker than you can get your Master Electrician license...you need to rethink your perspective.

If I was to say that all Dentists are Hacks that just gouge the public, that I could easily tank a bottle of JD and pull out my tooth with a pry bar...most people would call me an idiot. But it seems that this bias towards the trades not only exists, but is constantly reinforced by the media and followed by mass public opinion.

So I pull back and ask...just how did we get to this point? Why is there such a lack of respect for tradespeople? Why are we subject to such scrutiny where there is virtually no other profession that has to go through what we go through.

One woman I was talking to told me that she got "gouged" by an electrician that performed a service call to her house. She said "there were sparks flying out of the electrical box, so I shut off the breaker, called electricians, finally got someone to come out and fix it but he gouged me for $800 more than I should have paid. The only saving grace was that we paid him over 3 months"

So I ask..."How do you know he gouged you?"

She goes..."Because I got 5 other electricians to come out and quote me for the same job after and I compared the estimates".

I thought....you P.O.S.....You got "sparks flying out of your electrical box......I assume service panel, but you have the where-with-all to shut off the breaker...it's only 100 Amps after all, touching it couldn't hurt. You finally find an electrician that A) Actually does service calls...then B) Is availabe....he comes out, fixes your problem on the spot then the kicker.....gives you the option to pay over 3 friggin' months:blink:...essentially financing YOUR problem...and then you lambaste him as a scoundrel.

Not satisfied, you then call up 5 electricians that spend their time, gas and kms under the false assumption that you actually have work...just for the pleasure of scratching an itch in the back of your head...WHAT A PIECE OF WORK!:thumbup:

I swear to God, I always promote honesty and integrity in how I deal with clients...but lately, I want to bleed every idiot homeowner to their last dime, leave the job in a mess then put a lien on their house....just so I can live up to their already existing opinion about me and the rest of you out there.

Anybody feel me on this?...


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Its frustrating, but it is how some people see us.
Everything we do is on TV with guys like Ty Pennington and Bob Villa being represented as supreme experts.
Tim Allen and his sidekick (Home Improvement) get tons of fan mail asking for remodeling advice, either one of those guys ever worked in construction for more than a few days.
I had a pregnant women with 4 kids including a 2 year old asking if I would frame her basement, then she was getting an unlicensed guy to wire it then I would come back to hang the ceiling (sheetrock) and she was going hang the walls, tape and paint and I would come back to set the doors.
So I asked if she ever taped before, "No she said, but Home Depot had a class on it"! She had a plastic 4 way knife and plastic mud tray. Funny, the plastic knife had a kind of saw built in, saw, 3", 4" and 8" blade all on one piece of plastic. Damn fine tool:laughing:


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

Fortunately, the painting industry is immune to such thinking.:whistling

You can lose sleep over this mentality or use it to your advantage by clearly showing you are the exception to the "rule". Every industry/trade has generalizations attached to it but at the end of the day people need your services or they wouldn't have called.

IMO the key is to not take it personally (unless you deserve it:laughing).
I start every job with a sincere desire to thrill the customer.
When the condescending attitude starts flying they become a financial transaction.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

With headlines like this:
- 81-year-old Franklin man swindled out of $40,000

- Craig's being what it is

- No two [legitimate] contractors having the same price [for the same scope]

- and a multitude of other factors

- coupled with the general public's ignorance of what we do and what is actually involved....

What other result could possible be attained?


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

The way I see it is....If the public goes that route (thorough screening), with our competition, then alot of the bums and hacks are going to get weeded out, simply due to the way they work, and how they conduct business.

= More work for us....(We've got a clean record and a good reputation/nothing to hide)


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

We or (you) can ***** about it all you want but the bottom line is the reputation is deserved.

We (home improvement contractors) are our own worst enemies. 

There is a permit process - what percentage of our peers work around it? 95% ?
There are manufacturers instructions on any product we install - how many ever read them? 10% ?
There is a legitimate amount of profit a company needs to make in order to function well for it's client base over the long term- how many low ballers are their? 50-60% in any categrory?
How many of us drive around in piece of sh*t vehicles, don't show up on time or disappear for days, don't keep promises, make excuses, show up looking like you came off the pig farm??
How many GCs promote our race to the bottom with hiring the cheapest subs possible with no care to whether they are legal in this country or not?

I can go on and on...

We are our own worst enemy. How many consumer articles are written about avoiding pitfalls of choosing a barber? Tons of articles written about the dangers in hiring a contractor. Similar to no other industry other than buying a car.

Don't like it? Start turning in every piece of sh*t you can find who doesn't pull permits, you suspect doesn't have insurance, is using illegals.

Stop the bull sh*t of ooh... no... I'm a good guy... it's none of my business... blah blah blah.

Until we police ourselves and get rid of the bottom feeders in our industry the consumer will have to be very afraid of us.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Yeah I love when the husbnad chimes in on how he can wire or plumb but needs my subs to check his work.:laughing: I have seen alot of people this month and everyone has a budget of 7k to 10k to remodel anything. I have an appt this am with another 10k budget to add a bathroom in a basement my bid is 15k


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

We earned a lot of it, 
and I don't only mean the hacks, unethical contractors etc. 
I also mean:
It's about time we stop selling ourselves as trades people
selling our hourly services.
In that case, we are the help to rich homeowners. Very much like the gardener, the maid, the nanny.
We are contractors, not trades people (I think most people here are).

On the other hand,
I agree with Heritage too.
Most victims deserve what they get! (I mean this comment in context and in contracting only)


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Most cases of fraud in Florida I hear about when a client is ripped off by a contractor, the contractor is Unlicensed.

Yet the HO's will hire them thinking they are cheaper or just not caring about them being licensed.

People homes usually are their largest single investment, yet they will allow practically any hack to work on it, but I bet they would never consider having their cat treated by an unlicensed vet.

A former client of mine kept asking me for prices on work, I would try to nail down a scope of work, he kept changing it, putting it off, finally he calls me after he hired an unlicensed contractor and the job turned to sh!t wanting advice on how to deal with it, I told him that is the kind of crap that happens when you hire unlicensed contractors, he said he didn't call me because I was too busy, I asked how he knew when he never bothered to call me, he then brought in other unlicensed contractors to clean up the mess from his 1st unlicensed contractors.

Whenever I find someone doing work without a license, I drop a dime on them.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

kevjob said:


> Yeah I love when the husbnad chimes in on how he can wire or plumb but needs my subs to check his work.:laughing: I have seen alot of people this month and everyone has a budget of 7k to 10k to remodel anything. I have an appt this am with another 10k budget to add a bathroom in a basement my bid is 15k


Same thing here Kevin, I just think the only people in the market right now are dreamers and the people who shouldn't be in the market at all. Just about everybody I have met this month is exactly as you describe. 

I've excused myself from 3 different appointments after 10 minutes when they start rattling off a full renovation with high end features like we want euro glass doors, heated flooring, a jetted tub... and your budget is? - Oh we aren't sure... No, what have you budgetted for this? Oh... I don't know, we were thinking around twelve thousand but were hoping to be able to stay under that....

Adios. Enough is enough.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

They all read the "your contractor is slow right now so try and undercut him by 1/2 article! :w00t:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

I went on a kitchen remodel, asked them what they wanted, they told me, I asked them to sit down and gave them a ballpark figure of $50,000, they then started changing the scope of work after they quit choking, even with the change in scope, it will most likely be more than they are willing to spend.

I will give them a line cost on this job to show them where the money is, only because the propsect works for a client of mine and since I am an employee there as well as a contractor, we do "work" together.

People have no clue what things cost and they watch a home improvement show and think they know what they are doing.

I think This Old House and Hometime are good show's, but people who do not understand how condensed they are, don't realize how expensive those renovations are, IMO they are probably the only ones that know what they are doing, the rest of them are hacks that jumped on the band wagon.


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

kevjob said:


> They all read the "your contractor is slow right now so try and undercut him by 1/2 article! :w00t:


Exactly. If they want to haggle like a Moroccan Bazaar they better include their hot daughter in the negotiations. irate:


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## Aggie67 (Aug 28, 2008)

We're heavy into industrial, but the reference checking is just as stringent. We fork out coin every year to do back ground checks, drug testing, etc. With new clients, they want the name and number of your current clients, so they can call and chat (and they do). Some of the bigger clients want to talk to the bank, and want us to provide trade references. It's actually kind of reassuring, because it separates the wheat from the chaff and you know you're not competing against a hack outfit. The legit firms have longevity. The hacks basically end up doing the "tour": they tour the state pissing people off until they can't find work, then they move on.

I think the checking for residential is cumbersome for small jobs, but there are enough hacks out there that John Q Public wants some assurance that he's going to have a fair transaction. It's part of doing business now, and the blame should be placed at the feet of all these hacks that popped up.

But I also know from experience that once you find a good contractor, you keep in touch. I've had a guy for 8 years that I keep in touch with and call in every now and then. I don't nickel and dime him. He's the only bid I get, because I trust him and he lives 500 yards from the end of my driveway. He's got a stellar reputation, and he's part of the fabric of the community. 

Side story: we're helping out at a job at Picatinny Army Arsenal. In December one of the guys on the plumber's crew made the idiotic choice of showing up at the gate to work, knowing he had a warrant out on him. The officer at the gate asked him to sit to the side for a minute. Somehow the Army gets the info, and flags you when you swipe your card to enter. Local PD showed up 5 minutes later and cuffed him right there in front of us and drove off with him.


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

I think we are just above used car salesmen.
It seems everyone has or knows someone with a "nightmare" story of a remodel.
This is why the first impression is so friggen important.


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## Bill Z (Dec 10, 2006)

Mellison said:


> I think we are just above used car salesmen.
> It seems everyone has or knows someone with a "nightmare" story of a remodel.
> This is why the first impression is so friggen important.


So if we are just above used car salesmen, that still puts us above:
(in no particular order)
real estate agents
bankers, 
stockbrokers, 
loan officers, 
mortgage brokers, 
appraisers, 
investment bankers, 
corporate ceo's, 
politicians, 
some dentists, 
news anchors, 

and a whole slew of other business people who have generally lost their ethics.

At least most of us still have ethics.


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

Bill Z said:


> So if we are just above used car salesmen, that still puts us above:
> (in no particular order)
> real estate agents
> bankers,
> ...


\

And that is what the first impression is all about. People have to trust the guy who's employees are going to work in their home.
And that came across badly. I meant to write that we are probably looked at as being a notch above a used car salesmen. Not that we actually are. Everyone knows we are fabulous!!!!!


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

Mellison said:


> I think we are just above used car salesmen.
> It seems everyone has or knows someone with a "nightmare" story of a remodel.
> This is why the first impression is so friggen important.


 And why, once you've made that good impression, it is so important to maintain it throughout a project and beyond. 

Nothing enhances a first impression more than when you're walking in a potential client's door, and they know someone already who thinks highly of you and the work you've done. 

Referrals have been my bread and butter for a long time.:thumbsup:


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## RidgeWalker (Nov 1, 2006)

Honestly, I kind of like the fact that public perception has a negative view of the construction industry. Can you guess why?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I have to agree that people are just clueless. I had a young couple call me about a custom bamboo vanity. Three cabinets, a very large frame that would surround 2 mirrors and a window. I told them I'd call back soon with a price. I had a gut feeling these were tire kickers and I figured out a price and called back. Got their machine, I left a message on their machine and included the estimate with and without installation, just under $3500. I never expected to hear back from them. She called back later that day, I wasn't around. I called the next day and she had a few questions and asked if I could come by and show her some bamboo samples. I had recently pick up some from my distributor. So I agreed and went out there. We talked, I showed her the samples. We talked some more. Then they told me that they were hoping to get the price down to about $2000. WTF. I gave my estimate over the phone, spent my time getting samples, driving to their house at their convenience and then they try to lowball me by $1500. I did everything to give a good first impression. Showed up when I said. Had the samples, gave then quick concise answers. And they try to pull that. Especially bugs me that I had given them a price that was out of their reach and they brought me over anyway. And we are the rip offs....


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Leo G said:


> I have to agree that people are just clueless. I had a young couple call me about a custom bamboo vanity. Three cabinets, a very large frame that would surround 2 mirrors and a window. I told them I'd call back soon with a price. I had a gut feeling these were tire kickers and I figured out a price and called back. Got their machine, I left a message on their machine and included the estimate with and without installation, just under $3500. I never expected to hear back from them. She called back later that day, I wasn't around. I called the next day and she had a few questions and asked if I could come by and show her some bamboo samples. I had recently pick up some from my distributor. So I agreed and went out there. We talked, I showed her the samples. We talked some more. Then they told me that they were hoping to get the price down to about $2000. WTF. I gave my estimate over the phone, spent my time getting samples, driving to their house at their convenience and then they try to lowball me by $1500. I did everything to give a good first impression. Showed up when I said. Had the samples, gave then quick concise answers. And they try to pull that. Especially bugs me that I had given them a price that was out of their reach and they brought me over anyway. And we are the rip offs....


Quoting them the 3500 dollars was Part one. Part two should have been is that with in your budget.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Not for nothing LEO I feel your pain, next time maybe inject into the conversation at some point "So you got my message?" Yes, we did. "Good then I'm guessing the $3500 was probably lower than you were expecting?"

Open up that convesation with them.

It's good to always know where you stand and always be moving the sale forward. Wanting you to come by and show samples is a huge commitment of your time, I'd want to know at what part of the sales process I was at with a customer when they request taking up my time.

When a customer requests we get together again, I always ask them where they are at in the process. I'll ask them point blank after repeating to them the subjects they want to discuss if those are the only issues they have. When they answer yes, I then say something along the lines of 
"That's great, I'll be happy to set up a meeting with you and discuss those issues, after we do that is there anything else that would stop us from moving forward to signing a contract?" 

The more of that stuff you do the more you will know where you're at with a customer and avoid the time wasting blindsider. :thumbsup:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Not for nothing LEO I feel your pain, next time maybe inject into the conversation at some point "*So you got my message?" Yes, we did. "Good then I'm guessing the $3500 was probably lower than you were expecting?"*
> 
> Open up that convesation with them.
> 
> ...


I like it.:thumbsup:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

We talked about it after she returned my call. She knew what the price was, we talked about different options. She knew that the price was $3500 when she asked me to come by. While we were talking at our meeting she even brought up the price by her own memory. Only towards the end of the conversation did she say that she thought it would be in the $2000 range. Why should I need to ask her for her budget? I told her a price, she knew what the price was and she knew what her budget is. If she can't afford my prices why have me come over only to say at the end of the meeting that they thought it should be $2000. Just a tire kicker wasting my time. And we get the bad rap.


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## wyoming 1 (May 7, 2008)

We contractors do get a bad rap for some of the reasons already mentioned. There was a thread the other day about job site rules and most of the rules listed in my opinion were a good thing that promoted PROFESIONALISM and respected the customer's property and space. I couldn't believe some of the answers like I would tell you to take those rules and stick them up your... That is why most customers think we are all beer drinking, farting, foul language using, nascar watchin rednednecks. We need to put the profesionalism back in the trade starting at the top we need to demand excellents from ourselves our employees and subs. I subed out two pole barn structures this summer and we did the finish. The first one was excellent square, level, roof tin square to the rake ect. The next building was a different crew and terrible I had a punch list a mile long. I called the owner of the barn company and told him of the problems and I said I wish you would have sent "Bob's" crew to which he said "yeah Bobs amazing" The point of this story is no Bob is not amazing he just did his JOB the way it should be done but we come to view this as an amazing feat and that's why we get a bad rap we need to demand perfection. 
Wow I feel much better thanks for listening.


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

RidgeWalker said:


> Honestly, I kind of like the fact that public perception has a negative view of the construction industry. Can you guess why?


Self-loathing issues?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Leo G said:


> Why should I need to ask her for her budget? I told her a price, she knew what the price was and she knew what her budget is. If she can't afford my prices why have me come over only to say at the end of the meeting that they thought it should be $2000. Just a tire kicker wasting my time. And we get the bad rap.


Why should you ask? Because it's *your* time you are going to be wasting if you don't with people like that.


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## CreativeHomeImp (Jan 31, 2009)

I can't stand how people think of us. A lot of people think we are lower than them. I hate when people ask how much something is than they say they think its to much cause we didn't go to college we shouldn't make any money.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Why should you ask? Because it's *your* time you are going to be wasting if you don't with people like that.


Should be common sense. I tell you $100 and you have $50. Gee, duh, I guess I can't get that.

I don't ask for a budget....ever. Around here it is contractual suicide. They just make the assumption that if they tell you that they have $200 to spend then the bill will come up to $200 even if it should cost $150. Most of the people wouldn't tell you the truth anyway. Because they have the perception that we are ripp off artists trying to take all their hard earned cash. I give good prices. When someone gets a price form me and they want it lowered for any reason, it is hard for me to do. I am already giving my best price.

They were plain ole wasting my time. And they knew it. Piss me off.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Leo G said:


> Should be common sense. I tell you $100 and you have $50. Gee, duh, I guess I can't get that.
> 
> I don't ask for a budget....ever. Around here it is contractual suicide. They just make the assumption that if they tell you that they have $200 to spend then the bill will come up to $200 even if it should cost $150. Most of the people wouldn't tell you the truth anyway. Because they have the perception that we are ripp off artists trying to take all their hard earned cash. I give good prices. When someone gets a price form me and they want it lowered for any reason, it is hard for me to do. I am already giving my best price.
> 
> They were plain ole wasting my time. And they knew it. Piss me off.


You're talking about something completely different then what I said.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Sorry if I missed your point Mike. You wanna go at it agian so I can understand what you are getting at? I just figure, if I tell them it is more than they can afford they shouldn't be wasting my time by telling me at the last moment that all they want to spend is 40% less than the price I had given them.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Leo, there are idiots in this world, it's up to you to protect yourself from them. You're absolutely right, people should act a certain way, but since you can't control the way other people act you can only control your exposure to their stupidity. 

You might just want to ask a few questions is all, just to verify you're dealing with a decent human being or some idiot. Cause if you don't it's *your* time that will be wasted in the end.


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

Leo G said:


> I don't ask for a budget....ever. Around here it is contractual suicide. They just make the assumption that if they tell you that they have $200 to spend then the bill will come up to $200 even if it should cost $150.


You could ask them after you deliver your price.

I come across this a lot. People want to have a 6 color Victorian but are shocked at the pricing. By asking their budget, I can offer options which allow me to tailor the job to their needs. For example; we can always return in a year to do window sashes or add another color to the trim. In the meantime, the house gets painted, the rot gets replaced and I've gained another client.


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## wyoming 1 (May 7, 2008)

CreativeHomeImp said:


> I can't stand how people think of us. A lot of people think we are lower than them. I hate when people ask how much something is than they say they think its to much cause we didn't go to college we shouldn't make any money.


Speak for yourself I hold two degrees. I let that be known to my customers and it adds crediblity and make me look like a profesional


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

I think any customer that has intent to talk you down on price will say anything to get you over to their house. Free estimates cost them nothing and many HO's have no respect for a contractor's time. It baffles me that of the 3 possible outcomes of the estimate versus budget, HO's only consider the one where their budget is higher than the contractor's quote.


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

wyoming 1 said:


> Speak for yourself I hold two degrees. I let that be known to my customers and it adds crediblity and make me look like a profesional


:laughing:I'm sorry:laughing:......" and make me look like a profesional" sp?:laughing:sorry:notworthy


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

I was hanging out in one of those big box stores a week or so ago and happened to look over my shoulder to find this magic book that the store itself published. This magic book listed prices for ever kind of home improvement project, from setting a toilet, to framing, to excavating.

So I flipped through it, getting a chuckle. It said the house I'm currently framing should be done for $7.60 a sq ft. If I was to get that price I would have to stop framing today. Plastic sheeting would work good for the roof wouldn't it? 

Unfortunatly prices vary from region to region, not everyone spends hours shoveling each week or dealing with highs around 5 or 10. Or doing a full cut roof.

The moral of the story is a homeowner with half a brain can research a project with this book and easily tell YOU what it will cost, if your over your obviously ripping them off. If your under your saving them money.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*Don't let one bad apple ruin the bushel*

There is a very high percent of customers that are idiots. We run into one almost every day and just blow off their ignorant remarks. The merchant is always ripping off the customer. How many times have you heard something like.

"$350 for that Sony television. Sears is ripping you off because I can get that television at Circuit City for $320."

A more annoying subject is after you sign a contract, start the job, and you are working on the job, a daughter, son, or neighbor will go the the job and tell the customer you are ripping them off because they have a contractor who will do the job for one-half of your price. Everyone gets into a screaming match and the customer wants to re-negotiate the price, or cancel the entire job. I tell these new morons that their opinion is a little too late and if they had an interest in the sale they should have been present during the estimate phase. Go take a hike! 

I have the police called to my jobs about twice every year because a neighbor stirs up crap after we have jobs started. Every time, the neighbors have absolutely no clue about the scope of the work. 

Last year, I came very close to hitting a neighbor with my 4-battery mag light. It was intense. He looked like a drug addict on speed and he wanted to take the job away after we started. He told the customer there was no leaks under the house. We had given the customer pictures of the leaks and he said the pictures were not from her house. I went under the house and took the pictures a 2nd time. He still told the customer the pictures were not real. So, he went under the house and was screaming there were no leaks when there was several leaks in the drain pipes. He came out from under the house and went to his house across the street without saying one word. A few minutes later he comes walking across the street with two other fairly big guys and tells me to get off the customer's property. He comes toward me like he is ready to start fighting so I raised up my flashlight and was prepared to knock him out. The customer called the police. The customer was cool, but she was a wooss. She should have told the neighbor to get lost. Like I said, I get about two of these scenarios every year. I don't back down when I am right.

I'll cancel the job all right! My contract calls for a minumum cancellation charge of 40%, or a charge for the portion of work completed, or whichever is greater. I can make out like a bandit when they cancel within the first day and I will do it when the customer is antagoistic or obnoxious.


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## CreativeHomeImp (Jan 31, 2009)

tcleve4911 said:


> :laughing:I'm sorry:laughing:......" and make me look like a profesional" sp?:laughing:sorry:notworthy


seriously lol :notworthy


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## wyoming 1 (May 7, 2008)

oops hadn't had my coffee yet when I typed that but the point is still the same. If you would like me edit that post just ask.


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