# What would you do with this kitchen floor? (I'm not a tile guy)



## BrooklynBravest (Oct 12, 2015)

rrk said:


> Kiss the granite goodby.


alright then that idea is out...

I guess there is really no way around this other than finding out the hard way.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

MarkJames said:


> I suspect it's a combo of bad install and floor (deflection).
> 
> Bad idea to move the cabinets, yes.
> 
> ...


And now after adding plywood what happens to the dishwasher????


Remove the tile, remove thinset, install engineered wood floor. Done. No issue with dishwasher, no major deflection issues, much less headache.

You are not moving those cabinets anywhere with out damaging the granite, especially with a corner sink. It will snap like a pretzel.


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## BrooklynBravest (Oct 12, 2015)

rrk said:


> And now after adding plywood what happens to the dishwasher????
> 
> 
> Remove the tile, remove thinset, install engineered wood floor. Done. No issue with dishwasher, no major deflection issues, much less headache.
> ...


My next post way to say I will just put wood down... Seems like the easiest solution. I do like the transition of the living room/den in wood and the kitchen in tile. But if it ends up being this much headache goodbye tile.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

rrk said:


> And now after adding plywood what happens to the dishwasher????
> 
> 
> Remove the tile, remove thinset, install engineered wood floor. Done. No issue with dishwasher, no major deflection issues, much less headache.
> ...


Yup, a good thing to consider and measure ahead of time. After plywood, sometimes you can take the wheels an legs off to get it to fit. Also, some DW's have a bit more clearance than others.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

Don't decide on new floor until you've removed the old, and sorted out the reason for failure. 

And don't even think about cutting all that tile at cabinets with a multi tool. It will Never happen. Toe kick saw for best cut control or I'd even use my grinder to be honest. Either way, also use good dust control.


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## Stevarino (Sep 28, 2013)

I would be willing to put money on the fact that the floor was not installed properly. If the tile goes under the cabinets that alone would contribute to the problem. The weight of the cabinets and granite pushing down on the tile can cause enough deflection to cause issues. 

If it was my house I would cut around the cabinets. Pull old tile and underlayment. You will be able to tell if it was put in shoddy. If it comes up easy or you pull tiles up that have little thin set on the backs you know it was installed wrong. You could also end up finding someone laid hardibacker without mortar underneath and sparse drywall screws. 

Put down ditra and install new tile properly making sure to back butter tiles and leave 1/4" around cabinets to be covered with shoe. Use a quality grout and the floor could easily last 20 years. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Resta (Feb 11, 2009)

Each cracked tile change with small ornamental and colored tiles. For example Victorian antique reproduction or other floor décor tiles.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dsconstructs said:


> Slide the range out....that'll tell you whether the tiles are under the cabinets or installed after cabinets/toe kicks hiding the cuts.
> You could always cut the tile at the cabinets if it is run underneath, and use shoe mold after the new tile is set.
> Tap on all the tiles with your knuckle or better yet... plastic screw driver handle. Loose tiles will sound hollow, well adhered tiles will sound solid. If you run into loose tiles besides just the cracked ones, might as well consider you'll want to do the whole floor.
> And yes, check for existing deflection etc. before laying a new tile floor. Most cracked tile I run into is due to loose tiles (lousy job of tile setting)


How would you cut the tile at the toe kick?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Stevarino said:


> I would be willing to put money on the fact that the floor was not installed properly. If the tile goes under the cabinets that alone would contribute to the problem. The weight of the cabinets and granite pushing down on the tile can cause enough deflection to cause issues.
> 
> If it was my house I would cut around the cabinets. Pull old tile and underlayment. You will be able to tell if it was put in shoddy. If it comes up easy or you pull tiles up that have little thin set on the backs you know it was installed wrong. You could also end up finding someone laid hardibacker without mortar underneath and sparse drywall screws.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about? Tile can go under cabinets and properly installed would not be effected by the cabinets or the tops. Not going under cabinets is acceptable when the cabinets are already down, but not when they aren't. Go under the cabinets if you can.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> Not necessarily; the bowing may only happen when a [ahem] large person hops up & down on the floor. Guys with experience can do just that to tell pretty accurately whether it's solid enough.
> 
> Without access to the framing, the only sure way to tell would be to put a known weight in the center of the span and use a straightedge to measure the resulting deflection.


300lb weight


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## BrooklynBravest (Oct 12, 2015)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What are you talking about? Tile can go under cabinets and properly installed would not be effected by the cabinets or the tops. Not going under cabinets is acceptable when the cabinets are already down, but not when they aren't. Go under the cabinets if you can.


I have never used one, but I believe theyre suggesting to use one of these guys with a diamond wheel. Which honestly sounds like a great idea.

http://www.harborfreight.com/3-38-in-68-amp-heavy-duty-toe-kick-saw-62420.html

http://www.rockler.com/rockwell-ver...v0mXK6v1rbyr3z-rxLzI2NFBseiwli6e9qhoCjGfw_wcB


I think my first course of action as suggested is going to be to rip out the tile in the middle of the room that is cracked and see whats going on and go from there.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> How would you cut the tile at the toe kick?


4" toe kick/4" diamond blade....very slight angle to start.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BrooklynBravest said:


> That is probably above my skill set... if that wasn't apparent already.
> 
> 
> 
> Lets say best case scenario I just rip up one of the busted tiles, turns out its thin-set direct to subfloor, everything else is fine and the tiles run under the cabinets. Would it be a bad idea to try and move the cabinets to one side of the room, rip up and tile that side, put the cabinets back down on shims to maintain the height to the backsplash and then tile to it properly the rest of the way with something like Ditra beneath?


Thinset direct to subfloor isn't a failure. There are plenty of thinsets that will adhere tile just fine to plywood.

I wouldn't take out the cabinets if you don't have to. I would need to see it, but you can pull the tiles without pulling the cabinets. I have done it many times. Getting a saw under there is a pain and a huge mess. You will end up messing up your cabinets.

Ditra won't solve deflection problems. My guess is it's not a deflection issue. Those look like porcelain tiles which only require an L/360 floor. I would wager you are above L480.

Tiles crack due to movement plain and simple. If there was insufficient mortar they wouldn't crack unless they were impacked and then they shatter. They don't crack in a line.

It could be due to backer board issues. Backer board is installed on top of a layer of thinset to fill voids. It's screwed to secure to the subfloor. If it's the backerboard that's the culprit, it's going to first be lack of a properly installed seam. Did they leave an 1/8" gap between the sheets? Did they mesh tape and mortar the seams? The lack of thinset under the sheets won't usually cause cracking. Unless there is a void that was deep enough to cause the board to crack and then telegraph through to the tile. That usually happens over a seam in the subfloor or depression in the subfloor.

I am working on a project that the floor depresses 1" in 4'. Industry standard for 12x12 is 1/4" over 10' and 1/8" over 10' for large format tiles (tiles with a side 15" or great). That floor will get some SLC love.

Shoot some pics of the cracks and post.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dsconstructs said:


> 4" toe kick/4" diamond blade....very slight angle to start.


Then what do you cut the corners with. You can only get that so close to the inside corner. Plus the mess, unless you had some fantastic dust management. 

I've always just pulled the toe kick (or replaced), and pulled the tile.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> I suspect it's a combo of bad install and floor (deflection).
> 
> Bad idea to move the cabinets, yes.
> 
> ...


Adding plywood does not improve the deflection...or at least the deflection of the floor. It would aid in stiffening the plywood between the joist. But that deflection is usually not a factor unless that joists are 24o.c.

Just remove the tiles with a demo hammer. They will bust up pretty easy and you can clean it up around the cabinets.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

rrk said:


> Kiss the granite goodby.


Why? We do it all of the time. My granite guy comes in, pulls them, stores them onsite and reinstalls after we are finished.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

rrk said:


> And now after adding plywood what happens to the dishwasher????
> 
> 
> Remove the tile, remove thinset, install engineered wood floor. Done. No issue with dishwasher, no major deflection issues, much less headache.
> ...


Screw engineered flooring in a wet area. That chit doesn't last.

And you can get that top up without damaging it.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Yup, a good thing to consider and measure ahead of time. After plywood, sometimes you can take the wheels an legs off to get it to fit. Also, some DW's have a bit more clearance than others.


Even though adding plywood wouldn't help, you are correct on clearances. I have done this before. I didn't have to remove the legs but it was adjustable enough to fit. Knowing your numbers is key. The manufacturers installation instructions will have the clearances and you can get those online if you don't have the manual.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Then what do you cut the corners with. You can only get that so close to the inside corner. Plus the mess, unless you had some fantastic dust management.
> 
> I've always just pulled the toe kick (or replaced), and pulled the tile.


Yep, inside corners get a more brutal solution...Snap the tile up after the cut is made as far as possible and whatever is left gets chipped away as needed. Typically snaps pretty close. And yes it's potential for messy. Quick plastic wrap cabinets and zip pole a surround for the area, chasing with a vacuum. Not too terribly long to get it done though and clean up is quick if those precautions were taken. 

I'm not sure I follow how you pull the tile from under cabinets, even with toe kicks removed. How do you handle the sides/especially when dealing with modular cabs?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Why? We do it all of the time. My granite guy comes in, pulls them, stores them onsite and reinstalls after we are finished.


How would they deal with that layout, glued seams, undermount sink, etc.? I see a big U that wants to crack.


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