# I am scared of big projects



## totes (Oct 17, 2013)

I have been getting opportunities to take on much larger projects than I am used to. Sometimes I decline the job, sometimes I snowball a number at it, but when they take me up on my bid I back out. This has happened 3 times in the last 6 months. 
Occasionally I will have a customer that is comfortable with a time and materials contract, but this is rare.
The primary reason is I am not confident in my numbers, I can only cross reference so much to my previous work. I am scared to hire new employees and have them count on me, and me rely on them. Good help is tough to find right now as I'm sure you know.
My fear is I will take on a 4-6 month project, waste the peak weather months, just to take home small pay. Not worth the stress is how I rationalize it. I tell myself it is safer to just build a few decks and do some small residential kitchen and bath remodels during those 5 months instead. 
It seems I like the smaller jobs, where I have more control and I know exactly what I am going to make. But...then I will sit in my office and dream about the large projects,.. they knock on my door and I don't answer. 
I am not lacking work by any means, and income is better than ever, but I fear I may be my own biggest obstacle.
How do you know when it is worth taking the risk and grow with the size of the jobs you are offered?
Who else has been here? 
Bring it


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Don't be a pussy.


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

There is nothing wrong with being comfortable doing the smaller jobs and knowing when you will receive the $$$ in your hand,

It may be worth pricing one out and if you get it give it a go, if you make coin by the end and are happy that's your template for future... If not stick with what you do and be content with it.

Good luck and thanks for posting the question, it takes balls to admit your scared of something.


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## noweare (Apr 6, 2008)

Try to identify what is bothering you. It seems that your not sure you can get the numbers right. Try to break the job down into manageable pieces or try some estimating software. Run some smaller jobs you have done and see how close the software is. You can also partner with another contractor if you feel you dont have enough experienced help. 

It is common to be nervous when you are biting off larger projects untill you pull off
a couple and get more comfortable.


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## SunChaser (Jun 13, 2014)

I am/was sort of the same place. My remodeling business is new. I stuck with smaller projects to be sure I was growing at a pace I could handle. Being so new, I was turning down big jobs then one of my customers needed a big job done. I was very reluctant to take it on, even passed on it at first. Then they couldn't find anyone they were comfortable with and asked again. I thought about not just where I was but where I wanted to be as a business and how exactly I planned to get there. My tolerance for risk was low because I wanted to be sure I could do the job and do the job well. If I stayed in that mode, I would never actually grow my business the way I wanted to. I decided I had the skills and resources to do the job and that I was going to push myself to take it on. I did and It turned out well, the customer was happy, my little crew got to work on a great project. I sweated every step and put in extra time to get it done and check myself along the way. But it was well worth it. Now I don't worry about whether a job is big or small. I look at them the same and ask "Is the job right the right job?" I assess the rewards and risks. 

I've learned that all jobs don't always go as planned and that the important things to know are:
1. how to be best prepared to do the job AND 
2. how to deal with the problems and mistakes AND
3. how to learn from them so you can move on to work another day AND
4. not every job is right for you, no matter how much money you think you might make

Sorry for the loooong post. Wanted to share what I learned in the same situation. Good luck!


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## going_commando (Feb 19, 2013)

Fortune favors the bold.


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## Ohio painter (Dec 4, 2011)

I find myself in the same position when it comes to commercial new construction painting work. 
I posted a similar question in the painting forum just a few days ago. 
As far as taking on the employees, I took on my first full time employee a year ago. I too was worried about haaving enough work so I was up front with him about it. Needless to say we have kept busy and my worries did not materialize. Just took on my second employee 12 days ago. 

I looked at it this way, if an empoyee allows me to get jobs completed in less days on a job site and reduces waiting times for my customers then I have achieved some of my goals. In reality it all led to more work.


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## mstrat (Jul 10, 2013)

I can do the same at times, that's when it helps to simply look at it as a bunch of smaller jobs. i.e. Oh, someone wants me to do a hardwood floor job. Someone wants me to do a bathroom remodel. Someone wants me to remodel their kitchen. Someone wants an estimate on new windows. Someone wants an estimate on a siding job....oh...that's all for the same person!


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

A big job is just a bunch of small jobs.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I prefer the smaller jobs. On the larger you need to set yourself a tough but doable timeline. We had one with a 7 week timeline and after that we started losing 100 bucks a day. It was probably in reality too tightly by about 4 weeks, but with some add-ons to stretch it a bit we made it. I learned a lot.

If you are starting from small jobs to big jobs, a time line is your friend. If you don't keep to it, it can start to bog down and you will start to lose money and interest.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

Sometimes on a big job it can take a long time for the bleeding to stop.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

totes said:


> I will sit in my office and dream about the large projects,.. they knock on my door and I don't answer. I am not lacking work by any means, and income is better than ever, but I fear I may be my own biggest obstacle.


Sometimes we get so used to living off of the crumbs that the moment when we get an entire loaf, we think that we are not deserving of it. 

On another thread I had mentioned that one of my clients is paying me very well on a weekly basis for the privilege to call me up and ask for my advice as he does his own projects. Some of the other members in the forum said, "I wouldn't feel right about taking money from a client that calls me only a couple of times a week." 

We have become so used to giving out free estimates, free advice, free work, free-this, free-that, to the point where we think that the freebies are the norm and the gigs that pay us handsomely are something to self-scrutinize.

If someone is willing to hire you for the bigger jobs, take the money, do the work, and don't look back.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

As long as you bid them right the big jobs are nice. You know exactly where you're going to be that entire time. Less of that wasteful between job re-organization time.

I do tend to get tired of a job after a couple months sometimes. Last big job I did was 2 spec homes at the same time, took me 6 months.


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## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

*I Am Scared Of Big Projects*

Removed


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Trust your gut. Youll know when youre ready. Dont do what you think other people expect of you. Its your show you play how you want.

I find what makes it a big job is the value relative to the bank account. Its one thing if a job goes south and you lose 1 percent of tour net worth. Its another thing if you lose 200% of your cash. When you have enough chips to call the pot, thats when you ante.

I said no to gym floors for two years before taking one on. Glad I did too, I didnt have the right equipment and I knew it. Never lost a dollar on several jobs I didnt get.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

There is a saying, "Too many guys and not enough work or too much work and not enough guys."

It's likely when moving from smaller jobs to bigger jobs, one is eventually, at least temporarily, faced with this situation.

So if one is confident in the management and operational knowhow of getting a job done, whatever size, the potential thorn is the manpower.

So what's in it for you? That is, what's the bigger job going to bring you?

Does it change your job description, _e.g._, hands on to pencil pusher?
Does it increase the amount of work hours required from you in a day?
Does it increase you liability or exposure?
Does it increase your profit relative to your effort?

One can start by listing pros and cons of moving into new business territory followed by thoughtful consideration to both sides of the list.

I believe there is merit in maintaining the _status quo_ for a business that works, so long as it provides the outcome one desires. If a different outcome is desired, it's best to steer the business with purpose and direction.

So tying this all together I say, "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it."


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## sailfish27 (Jan 25, 2014)

donerightwyo said:


> Sometimes on a big job it can take a long time for the bleeding to stop.


A healthy fear is not a bad thing. I wish I had it before I took on a 100k basement project this past spring. 

I did mostly decks bathrooms and handyman work. Between 10-30k was the sweet spot for me. Then I threw caution to the wind and lost my shirt.

I made a ton of mistakes. The first one was having a poor team. Designer, plumber, hvac, and electrician. Second huge mistake was not scheduling the job properly. If you are used to doing small jobs you take one at a time with not much in between. On my particular job I was always waiting for a sub to do his work before I could complete mine. A lot of down time. 

Third huge mistake was doing too much for free. On a small job I customarily will do something for nothing as a way of building goodwill. On a big job doing anything for free turns into doing way too much for nothing!

Four, punch lists are killers. All the little stuff you scraped or nicked adds up to a ton of work.

Finally I really hated having to deal with the same HO everyday for what seemed like an eternity, after awhile especially if your not making money they get on your nerves. That coupled with the stress of just wanting to be DONE to "stop the bleeding" turned out to be an incredibly bad experience for me.

I hope you have better luck or more brains than me.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

Yep---you can loose big on a big job---work your way into them---

Try a 'Medium' size one---when it starts to feel like the medium is easy--then you will be ready for a large one.

Big jobs are often 'permit' jobs with the dreaded delays--and subs---and more wasted time---


Make mine a 'medium'--


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I get bored and am ready to move on after about a month.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

to the O.P.
you have 2 different issues going on
1) fear of the big job.
what is big to you--- may not be big to someone else---- but all in all I wouldn't worry about it.--- if you are happier with smaller jobs thats cool.
what I have found personally--- is that for us 5 one day jobs pay MUCH more than a 5 day job.
three jobs of 2-3 days each--- pay more than a 10day job and so forth.
past few years--- I have quoted some jobs that would have been HUGE for us. didn't get them.--- when I found what the jobs actually went for--- I am glad I didn't get them. My price was much higher---and even if we got them at my price---- we would have earned 10's of thousands of dollars LESS--- than simply doing our ordinary work during the same period.

for us--- for example , if we do a 2 day job--- the project is probably replacing some very expensive copper work--- the most expensive part of the project.
but if the project is a 5 day project it will involve a certain amount of slap and tack work--- less skill/less money. so the larger the project for us--- the more mundane things involved and the lower the average earnings......

2) fear of having employees. seperate matter entirely---- but if you are going to grow this is something you have to get past.
I resisted this for YEARs and years---- but in the end I am glad I finally grew into it.
Frankly--- having employees is an exchange of one set of problems for another set----- but if you do it right you actually get much more money thrown in on the deal as well. I wish I had done it MUCH earlier.
adding employees meant that---in time--- I was able to put down the tools, step off to the side and pay attention to what was really going on----what paid--- what didn't. the quality of the work improved, the volume of projects improved, the amount of profit improved, My personal leisure time improved in quality and quantity.
Basically--- EVERYTHING improved---- primarily because once I was no longer personally carrying roofing materials up a ladder---- I had the time and resources to improve everything, explore new opportunities and share the improved resources with the guys actually doing the work.

Best wishes,
stephen


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Cost estimates only. That is the point. And you get paid for saving money or going over if they bust the budget by upgrading. The upgrades cost you nothing and leave the client feeling good that they pulled on over on you.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

One hook I've seen is to have clause that any future agreed on cost savings is split 50-50. If the customer agrees to downgrade something, it's more money in your pocket. More importantly, it keeps the focus on not blowing out the scope after the contract is signed.


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## CLTCommercial (Dec 16, 2015)

Joasis said:


> Cost estimates only. That is the point. And you get paid for saving money or going over if they bust the budget by upgrading. The upgrades cost you nothing and leave the client feeling good that they pulled on over on you.


So my question was more about the event that you miss something, or you grossly under-estimate the cost of a particular scope by accident. 

Totally random numbers I am throwing around - but let's say you tell the customer their electrical rough-in is going to cost $8,000. In reality, it costs $15,000 - not because of any upgrades but because of a bad cost estimate on your part. 

In a bid situation where the customer may be comparing your numbers to someone else's, someone using this pricing model could have an incentive to quote lower numbers because in the end if their budget goes over they don't have skin in the game. I am certainly NOT saying that is what you would ever do, but I am asking how a situation like this would be approached since you are not giving them any type of a "not to exceed" guarantee.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

CLTCommercial said:


> So my question was more about the event that you miss something, or you grossly under-estimate the cost of a particular scope by accident.
> 
> Totally random numbers I am throwing around - but let's say you tell the customer their electrical rough-in is going to cost $8,000. In reality, it costs $15,000 - not because of any upgrades but because of a bad cost estimate on your part.
> 
> In a bid situation where the customer may be comparing your numbers to someone else's, someone using this pricing model could have an incentive to quote lower numbers because in the end if their budget goes over they don't have skin in the game. I am certainly NOT saying that is what you would ever do, but I am asking how a situation like this would be approached since you are not giving them any type of a "not to exceed" guarantee.


I honestly do not know how this scenario would happen, if you do your job. 

I use a set of numbers that work every time for me. And in the case you are looking at, remember, that if I bid at $4 a sq/ft for electrical rough in, it is because that is what my sparky has charged me for the last 10 or 20 builds. If there are unknown, or unforeseen items, that is covered under s change order. Missing something like say the upstairs of a two story house...well, that would be on you. 

A contractual point of "not to exceed" is a pretty dumb idea, for anyone, and here is why: Why would anyone want to come under and leave money on the table? And if you or your subs miss and you go over, then does everyone take a hit? Or just you? *This is why I do a construction estimate, and proposed budget*, the client takes a risk, you take a risk, and your subs are invested as well. If a sub changes the game and raises prices during the build, or won't do what he always does, or hits extras that we don't agree with, I make nothing, and he will get away with it once. Not twice, because he won't ever be on my job again. Relationships with clients and selling large jobs has another element: *You must have good subcontractors on your team, and you have to look at every job as a "team approach". All of my current subs have been with me for years, and a few, for 15 years. *

I had a client a few years ago that decided to change out a simple shower to a full body shower, complete with inline water heater boost and larger supply lines for the water, after we were roughed in....needed 220 ran to it as well. My guys did it, bitched about it, but not to the client, and laughed about it later, but they took care of it. Sometimes, in general contracting, that is how it goes. 

A last point: You need to have some experience to take on larger projects, and while you are getting your time in, ask for bids from every sub, and then you won't have this happen anyway. If you did miss an electric bid as you exampled above, then you were bidding without the advice and consent of the electrician, or you left a page out of the plans. It is not uncommon that after I quote the prices before signing a contract, I will go over a proposal a few more times. I have never had an error like you describe.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I will add one more element to the GC potential. 

There is no way, NO WAY, that you can be a GC and not be in absolute, total control. 

One failure I see a lot of contractors get into with multiple trades on the job site is spacing, overlap, and conflict between the trades guys. That is why I said they have to have a team approach. It only takes one crappy sub to wreck the flow and outcome, not to mention timing, on any job, residential or commercial. 

I am the alpha male on my jobs, and my guys have worked together long enough that they will work with each other....like when we have to accommodate the HVAC guy with a chase that gets in the way of something the plumber wants, or the sparky has to move wiring because of a change somewhere else. They will talk to each other, but I am there to decide, without appeal, what will be done. There can only be one boss....and a sub doesn't come on my jobsite with an attitude that he is running anything. 

Funny story. I hire concrete pumps a lot. Like dozens of times a year. A company moved to our area and called on me, price was good,a nd I said I would try them if I was in a bind. Well, the bind came, and our regular pumper did not have a truck for me...we were rushing an ICF pour because of storms on the way, and tried to move up a day. 

I called brand X, and sure, they sent me a pump. It has always been my practice to never have the ready mix concrete load a truck until the pump is set up and we see no issues. I don't like buying concrete that is wasted, and this time....well, the pump shows up, nice rig, and as he is rolling up, he sees me motioning to where I want him set...and stops the rig, and this gorilla of a guy gets out, and without coming over to talk to me, looks around, then comes over and said I want to rig up there, and I said no, I need you here because we have a flat work pad closer to that side for the last part of the pour. 

And this guys said, and I quote: "By God, I run this job when I show up, nothing happens unless I say so, this pump is my responsibility, and I decide where and how I will set up and how I will have the trucks come in, and that is the way it is going to be!"

Ok....so now, all of you reading this that know me.....laugh now. 

I tell this clown to climb his ass back in his truck and beat it. Don't come back...because you don't see your name on my truck, and I do run the show. And I stood there glaring at him, and he looked surprised, went to his truck and got on his cell phone. My phone rang within minutes.....and I told them then same thing...get this clown out of here, told him what he said, told him what I was thinking (insert colorful language here), and they didn't need to worry about calling on me, ever again. 

Of course, I had about 6 guys behind me, my guys and the concrete crew we use. I don't think I scared him, but he left with his tail between his legs. And hour later, my regular pump company called, had a cancellation, and had a pump for me a few hours later. We just had a longer day then usual. 
*
There is only room for one boss on the job. And if you are a GC, you need to be the boss.*


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## CLTCommercial (Dec 16, 2015)

Joasis said:


> I honestly do not know how this scenario would happen, if you do your job.
> 
> I use a set of numbers that work every time for me. And in the case you are looking at, remember, that if I bid at $4 a sq/ft for electrical rough in, it is because that is what my sparky has charged me for the last 10 or 20 builds. If there are unknown, or unforeseen items, that is covered under s change order. Missing something like say the upstairs of a two story house...well, that would be on you.
> 
> ...


This makes total sense of course. I don't do residential work, so I learn something new about how that world works every day.

I come from the commercial side, where it's a lot different. As a commercial subcontractor, we have to quote every job up front based on plans and specs - which can easily be thousands of pages. We estimate labor and material costs, formulate our selling price, submit our bid. If awarded, we sign a contract for that price based on plans and specs, and then we build. This is a binding agreement tied to our selling price and the project plans and specs.

It is of course ideal to say that that selling price we arrive at based on our estimate is never too low. Unfortunately in reality this is not always the case. We see large spreads between contractors often. What we may estimate to be our COST may be someone else's SELLING PRICE. 

Labor estimates are a guess. We think it will take us two weeks to lay out the walls on the job based on our 30 years experience. Something happens and it turns into 3 weeks. No good. It happens.

A contractor prices a ceiling tile that costs $1.00 per square foot, but finds out later they missed a line in the spec that ultimately means they will have to spend $1.50/SF for the tile to meet the intent of the spec.

A low voltage contractor prices the job to run all of their wire using plenum rated cable outside of conduit, but it turns out that buried in the 500 page building spec manual that ALL wire must be in conduit regardless of type.

All of these mistakes cost the contractor, not the owner. We give our price at the beginning and we hold the risk to complete the job based on all of the plans and specs that were provided.

These types of things happen. Hopefully not often - because then you're out of business! But my point is that it happens sometimes, and my question was coming from my point of view in which the contractor is bound to their budget and the owner doesn't pay for mistakes such as these.

Of course we try to stick to mostly private work with good customers we have known for many years. In private work, there's some flexibility to negotiate through these types of mistakes and make up for them later. Public/government work is different. Submit your bid form in a sealed envelope on bid day, they open them in public, read the numbers, low number wins. It's quite scary when your bid is the low one sometimes!

I learn a lot from this forum about how different types of businesses and different types of construction operate. It is quite fun to learn and discuss these types of things to see different points of view! Thank you for the good conversation


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

We run into specification issues on the commercial side all the time. While my son runs the commercial crews, I always read over the bid solicitations and specifications, and then we do a "generalized" bid. That number is base on what we charge to say, erect a steel building of 20,000 sq/ft. I even account for added time if the height of the building varies, to allow increased machine time.

One recent project came to use through another GC, and my son was the erector only. I bid the job based on the plans we had, and when we arrived, all was great...building framed and ready for sheeting...and the windows arrived. No windows in our bid. No information was available. Standing seam roof also when standard R panel was in the bid. 2 part roof insulation when 4 inch vinyl back was the spec. 

We stopped the job, went to the next one while the GC called and threatened....and I said do what you want, I will not only sue, but lien, and I will win because of your contract. 

2 weeks later, he saw the light. We got another $2 a sq/ft plus a few grand to move back on the site. Turns out he missed the items and submitted his own specs to us, so he ate a bitter pill. Tough. Not my problem.


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## CLTCommercial (Dec 16, 2015)

Yeah that all sounds about right! Commercial is fun isn't it


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

CLTCommercial said:


> It is of course ideal to say that that selling price we arrive at based on our estimate is never too low. Unfortunately in reality this is not always the case. We see large spreads between contractors often. What we may estimate to be our COST may be someone else's SELLING PRICE.
> 
> Labor estimates are a guess.


Just for the sake of discussion, I will say that most of the times we see a great spread on a bid is because many, many contractors are so afraid of losing, that they bid high to prevent a loss if they do win the bid award. 

Then you have the low end, and we see that when the economy slows for any reason. In one example, if we charge $5 a sq/ft based on area to erect a steel building, a hungry contractor may come in at $3 to insure he gets the bid, if he is qualified, because he cannot risk not getting it, and he has to keep making money to stay afloat. Sometimes it isn't about profit. Sometimes you take a bitter pill to keep your subs working. 

But this number is also the floor number where you rarely see anyone, that is qualified, will be, because.......insurance, WC, equipment rentals, travel....those are all factors. Legitimate guys will have about the same floor costs.....unless, and we run into this, family businesses that pay no workers comp, guys who pay by the month for GL insurance, and it is no longer valid......hell, we have lost to erectors who rent all their equipment, get paid, and skip town without paying the rentals...and guess what? United and Hertz I have heard will lien property for the rental fees.....and go the distance in court to collect. We own every thing we use, and this allows our "floor" cost to be a little lower if we absolutely must. And I think it adds to a legitimate contractor to not have rental equipment on jobs..unless it not an every job deal. 

I will add one more item.....I know you can be scared to death on a 100 page set of plans, that details will be missed, but it really is all about eating the apple one bite at a time. When I get overwhelmed by the specs, I back up, take a breath, and then commit to making a list, page by page, of identifying each phase, or task, and then with a much smaller page, go back and detail from there. 

I have more commercial time the residential...maybe that is why home building is no great task.


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## CLTCommercial (Dec 16, 2015)

Definitely right about one bite at a time. We manage to do about 35 million a year that way. One scope at a time, look at every detail, every page, and build each piece in your head. . We are rarely the lowest guy, sometimes the highest guy, but we always start with a good cost estimate and an estimated margin that appropriately addresses the risk we are comfortable with based on all things considered. We always treat everyone fairly, and we always pay our bills. If that means we don't get a job that goes low then so be it!


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

CLTCommercial said:


> So my question was more about the event that you miss something, or you grossly under-estimate the cost of a particular scope by accident.


I re-read this, and I also missed how I work an estimate another way. 

I write my estimates and take-offs by hand. I am just now, at my advancing years, learning spreadsheets, and I picked up book at the IBS show in Vegas, designed for Excel estimating. Looking forward to learning this. 

Anyway, lets say I open a complex set of plans....and think I might be missing something: If I am the GC, then I will also list, on a separate page of my yellow pad, each trade I will be dealing with. 

Dirt work:

Concrete subs, forms, etc.

Plumbing:

Electric:

Layout (me)

Framing, steel, blocks

Insulation:

Sheeting

Brick:

and so on....you get the idea. Everyone has a page. 

Then, I head back to the plans, and each page I turn over, I make a note of who it applies to and what it is. When they overlap, I note that it is covered on page "x:, and move along. 

At this point, I am ready to copy the plans, with my notes, for estimates from the subs. Some of my subs will not need to see all of the sheets, but I have not seen a sub yet when asked, to look at the full set and see if anything is missed. I also do this, by placing my self as say, the mason. I find each page again that has anything to do with the masonry bid, and look at each detail, and every special, plus heights and details, and then make a new page to go with the original. Now, I compare the pages. One trade at a time. I estimate the number of bricks, ties, cement, height of walls, estimated time to scaffold, etc...and when I have this, I have something to compare to my mason's numbers....if we are close, then we are not missing anything. I also have an idea of what the total will be....so many square feet of brick at 5 bricks to the square foot, plus 5%, and so many bags of cement, and I know what he charges per brick to a height, and the upcharge going up. 

*A GC needs to know exactly where the numbers come from, and how they can be manipulated to make things work out in a competitive bid. 
*

Take the mason for instance: I can locate a Z boom for him on a job that has a fireplace, or tall gables, and he can increase his production time by a day, or a week, instead of building scaffolding.....and if it saves a week, then I have some flexibility in the numbers, and an edge if we are tight on numbers. I can charge the job for the Z-boom because I own it, and still save thousands. My mason just started on his own,a nd has one helper...if he doesn't have to rent scaffolds, he saves, plus he still gets his fee, minus the scaffolding charges. Good for everyone. 

Now...this may seem like a bear, but it isn't...when you eat the apple a bite at a time. The most complex plans can be broken down easily. 

On a residential house, you can list each trade and what they are doing, and check your bid numbers back that way also. 

I will give you an example, using my plumber: The typical bid is $750 per waste opening, and this includes the supply lines, for a typical house. There is a $1000 up charge for going upstairs to a second floor. What is included in this "opening" pricing is all the pvc and pex, fittings, glue, rings, roof flashings, and is to stub out outside the footings. Now I add so much a foot to reach sewer, or water supply, like the time to trench and additional lines plus meter house, etc., and then I have a bid. If a home has 3 baths and a guest bath, plus laundry and a two sink kitchen, and one bath upstairs, the bid is $11,500, or $2250 per bath for 3 openings (master bath and double sinks do not count), $1500 for the guest bath, and $750 for the laundry room, plus $1000 for an upstairs run. All the pipe, pex, and labor are here. What is next is to simply include a budget item for the fixtures, and that can be $600 per full bath, plus $300 per sink for the kitchen, $300 for the guest bath, and this is what the customer can use to select toilets, showers, tubs, faucets.....you get the idea. Add for the water heater, and you have a complete bid. 

Electric is easier, on residential. $4.50 a sq/ft for all interior footage, no up charge for exterior porch or accent lighting, and typically all can lights are included up to say 20, and switch plates, covers, outlets, panel, etc......and then I add a budget of say $100 a room for the customer to select light fixtures, or fans. If it has a great room, we may have a budget item of $500 for a big fan/light, or a dining room may get $500 for a chandelier. That is it. The fart fan/light combos for the baths are included, vanity lighting is a budget item. 

maybe this will help some of you guys understand how to bid...and this isn't a written in stone method, it is what I do and it works. I bet there are other ways.....but this is how I do it. 

I am going to build a spread sheet that does this from two directions so nothing is ever missed. :thumbsup:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I have an excel spreadsheet but I still start with a pencil on a set of plans, writing down quantities and notes.


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## CLTCommercial (Dec 16, 2015)

Inner10 said:


> I have an excel spreadsheet but I still start with a pencil on a set of plans, writing down quantities and notes.


With the quantity of bids we do, we switched to mostly on screen takeoffs over the last 5 years. We have seven full time estimators and bid probably thirty commercial projects on an average week. The ability to stop printing all those plans and specs helped a lot with both cost and time spent dealing with it. 

I use Planswift to do all my measurements and quantity takeoffs, and then I use an excel spreadsheet to do my pricing typically. Sometimes by hand if I'm feeling like it. 

Others in my office use software for both takeoffs and pricing. I prefer pricing in excel to have more control


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

CLTCommercial said:


> With the quantity of bids we do, we switched to mostly on screen takeoffs over the last 5 years. We have seven full time estimators and bid probably thirty commercial projects on an average week. The ability to stop printing all those plans and specs helped a lot with both cost and time spent dealing with it.
> 
> I use Planswift to do all my measurements and quantity takeoffs, and then I use an excel spreadsheet to do my pricing typically. Sometimes by hand if I'm feeling like it.
> 
> Others in my office use software for both takeoffs and pricing. I prefer pricing in excel to have more control


How is your computer setup? Massive monitor? Touchscreen?

I love the concept, we get all our plans in PDF/CAD and I end up printing them out and grabbing a pen. I just can't get use to working off the computer screen.


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## CLTCommercial (Dec 16, 2015)

Inner10 said:


> How is your computer setup? Massive monitor? Touchscreen?
> 
> I love the concept, we get all our plans in PDF/CAD and I end up printing them out and grabbing a pen. I just can't get use to working off the computer screen.


I would post a picture if I was at my office, but I'll just explain. My personal desk is a large table that theoretically could allow me to spread out plans while I work on screen (if it wasn't a mess!). I have two 27"ish monitors. I keep the plans on the left monitor and then my takeoff information and tools on the right monitor. This allows me to pretty much maximize the full monitor to see the plans. The mouse controls of the software allow easy navigation, zooming in and out, panning around. That's really the key is to get used to quickly zooming in and out and panning around without losing your focus. It takes a little time, but after a few days you'll be good at it. 

Some guys have a big slanted plan table so they can flip through a full size set during takeoffs. My table is flat and only really useful for a half size set of plans. 

We have a range from young to old in my office. Even the old school 25 year vets have switched over and like it. The time savings is worth it to them. 

We also are all linked together on our network so we can all takeoff different scopes from the same set of plans, we only download once.


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## CLTCommercial (Dec 16, 2015)

I will point out that proper software makes it MUCH easier than you think to navigate the drawings. Way easier than adobe reader. Try planswift's free two week trial


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

CLTCommercial said:


> I will point out that proper software makes it MUCH easier than you think to navigate the drawings. Way easier than adobe reader. Try planswift's free two week trial


I'll try it for my next bid, I use acrobat pro and it's vastly better than reader.


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## CLTCommercial (Dec 16, 2015)

Inner10 said:


> I'll try it for my next bid, I use acrobat pro and it's vastly better than reader.


Let me know how you like it. I first downloaded it and ended up taking a 200,000 dollar wall panel job off that weekend at home on my laptop just for practice..... We got the job. Scary right? Ha! Worked out great. And the onscreen markups give you a lot of power to print or PDF your takeoffs for your installers or the GC as needed down the road.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

CLTCommercial said:


> We have seven full time estimators and bid probably thirty commercial projects on an average week.



We are definitely not apples and oranges here. My comments are directed at the guys like me who are independent GC's that have to empty the wastebaskets also. :laughing:


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