# Farmhouse remodel discussion.



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

So I'm shopping for a house and the girlfriend and I found a fixer upper 1820 farmhouse on 2 acres. 

We are looking into financing options and are ready to put down earnest money and make an offer. I think I can count on you guys to entertain ideas. 

First up is the main roof needs done immediately. We wish to turn 75% of upstairs into a master suite. And it is where work needs to start. Downstairs is pretty much occupiable with minimal effort.


We want to do a cold roof. Paint the backside of the first layer of plywood decking black and leave the original deck boards and 5" log rafters exposed, install 4" of polyiso insulation, sleepers, and new roof deck and shingles. 

This would eliminate the whole new ceilings and attic insulation/ ventilation portion.

Obviousley clean up and apply a finish to the new ceiling. 

Does anybody know if I would need fire rated cdx for this?

Anyway here is some pix and please offer ideas. I have remodeled an 1876 farmhouse and been part of full historic guts before. (Found a flat roof in the floor once) before so I am aware of many of the small details that are required (IE, crazy amount of funky fireblocking) reminders are appreciated though.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Upstairs. Master suite area

This is where the pending fun will begin

Future closet








Future master bath








Main bedroom area will need a good floor leveling









Future Bedroom ceilings









Keep the beams obviously.


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## Defenestrate (Aug 13, 2015)

Woo! Lookit that purty knob and tube! Bit of romex in your future? (Stop me if you've heard this one already, but I suspect your life would be better if you rewired everything right away.)

In all seriousness, looks like a cool project.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Defenestrate said:


> Woo! Lookit that purty knob and tube! Bit of romex in your future? (Stop me if you've heard this one already, but I suspect your life would be better if you rewired everything right away.)
> 
> In all seriousness, looks like a cool project.


Yeah. It needs new wire as we go. We really want this house.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Cool house! :thumbsup:

That crawl space looks like a nose scrapper ?


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

blacktop said:


> Cool house!
> 
> That crawl space looks like a nose scrapper ?


It is


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> It is


I think most of those old homes were. They didn't give much thought for central air back in those days. :no:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Upstairs. Master suite area
> 
> This is where the pending fun will begin
> 
> ...


That joist system Is impressive !!


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

Damn nice piece of land there. 
If you get it, I wanna see a full detail reno thread 😄

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Interesting project. Is the house still on the foundation around the perimeter? The 5th picture down makes me wonder about the front wall. Presumably the price is right.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Pull off the panel cover and check what the wires types are coming in, then take off some outlet and switch plates and see it it's the same stuff at the devices. If it isn't, you may have tape splices in the wall....

Check the foundation over, and understand how the framing is put together, especially how any out of level situations occurred.

Check the chimney for a liner, if you plan on using it for anything.

Regarding the roof, I believe a 30 minute barrier under the foam is required, but check with your local AHJ to be sure. They may say 1/2" OSB will be OK. Some areas are very picky about this detail.


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## gbruzze1 (Dec 17, 2008)

Damn I thought my house needed a lot of work when I bought it!

Good luck, here's a few pieces of advice from my experience buying a fixer upper:

-Knob and tube can be a great thing. My house had knob and tube. Although I knew I was going to gut the house and rewire, I still used the knob and tube to negotiate cash towards closing costs. Most insurance companies will not insure a house with knob and tube. We found 1 insurer that would, and it was counting on us removing all the knob and tube within 1 year. 

-When negotiating price and credits based in work to be done, don't look at it as a contractor, but as a homeowner. I knew my house needed a new roof. The description said it needed a new roof. During the inspection, I realized it was several layers of asphalt over cedar shakes. Whole roof needed plywood. I was able to negotiate a discount on the sale price for the cost of installing new plywood. 

-Little things add up. During the inspection, point out any little things the inspector might miss. You might see them as no big deal, but to a homeowner, they cost money to have a professional come in and fix. Just because you can do it yourself doesn't mean you shouldn't address it. 

Of course, if the house is being sold as is, forget anything I said. If they are trying to push the house as being fine and not needing much, press the fact that it really does need a lot of work, and that they are lucky you're interested because as a contractor, you can handle the work and are not intimidated by the huge amount of work it needs, whereas most homeowners would run from a house like that. 

Get the work done right away. Beg, borrow, steal, do whatever you need to do to get the renovation banged out like you were doing a job for someone else. I bought my house 3 years and 2 months ago. Started the renovation of the 2nd and 3rd floor 2 years and 8 months ago. I'm still not done, still living on the 1st floor. I'm close to done, but not there yet. At first I thought it would be a great idea. I'll chip away at it a little at a time, work weekends, few nights here and there. Get it done when I can, no rush. Well now I have a 3 month old baby, and the last thing I want to do is seen my whole weekend upstairs working. I should have taken a couple months off from work, gotten a loan, and knocked this reno out. Instead I chose a slow death. And I still have the 1st floor to do. But that will not be done like the upstairs. Please, do you and your girlfriend a favor. Treat the Reno like a job and get it done asap. Enjoy your house instead of being a slave to it like I am. 

Good luck, I hope you get it. I'd love to see the renovation. Hopefully I'm not 40 by the time you're posting completed pics. 


Gary


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Interesting project. Is the house still on the foundation around the perimeter? The 5th picture down makes me wonder about the front wall. Presumably the price is right.


This could be an old style post and beam. Really old ones had trapezoidal bents, so the gable end looks like the bottom is kicking out. Or, it could be a new style post and beam with rectangular bents, and the bottom is kicking out. Easy way to tell for sure is seeing if the floor joists are pulling out of the beam pockets.


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## Philament (Dec 9, 2014)

Oh man, I've done a bunch of these and a number of timber frame barn repairs. So much work, but gratifying in the same.

A few things on that one that jump out at me (not including the wiring...that's a given):

- The vegitation/grade looks like it's at or above the bottom of the siding. This usually means the sills are rotted and/or the rubble foundation is in bad shape. Those old rubble foundations are an incredible amount of work to repair...know your mortars

-Jacking timber frames up is a whole different kettle of fish than stick frame, everything is essentially point loaded and a number of joints don't take kindly to having pressure applied in the upwards direction. 

-Air sealing old houses like that to be able to insulate them has to be done very carefully. Most have a lot of water infiltration, but weren't a big problem because they were so leaky and it could dry out. The second you insulate and air seal, those can be a huge problem.


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

Philament said:


> -Air sealing old houses like that to be able to insulate them has to be done very carefully. Most have a lot of water infiltration, but weren't a big problem because they were so leaky and it could dry out. The second you insulate and air seal, those can be a huge problem.


Most of them were designed that way though. Given the fact that they're standing +100 years after the fact and modern houses have a host of problems after a few decades it really says allot about them.


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## Philament (Dec 9, 2014)

BucketofSteam said:


> Most of them were designed that way though. Given the fact that they're standing +100 years after the fact and modern houses have a host of problems after a few decades it really says allot about them.


True.
If you don't mind paying the heating bills leave it be, but insulating without air sealing is like p:ssing in the wind. 

I would debate that sealing houses is the reason for modern house problems though.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Interesting project. Is the house still on the foundation around the perimeter? The 5th picture down makes me wonder about the front wall. Presumably the price is right.


I haven't crawled under yet. The front right corner is sagging pretty bad. I have about a 7" drop upstairs. It's not as pronounced on the first floor. 
Price is good. They are asking 99k. Going to offer 75. Though the land is worth that in the area. 








First floor


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

This is essentially the floor plan we are going for. Did a little shifting from the first plan


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Forgot pics
Front








Rear


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

Philament said:


> True.
> If you don't mind paying the heating bills leave it be, but insulating without air sealing is like p:ssing in the wind.
> 
> I would debate that sealing houses is the reason for modern house problems though.


When these houses were built heat sources cost pennies compared to now.

All I'm going to say on the matter is that most of the rot and mold issues I've found are in newer houses compared to the older ones.

Most of the mold issues I've seen in old houses is after they've been renovated and brought up to modern at the time standards.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Huge rectangle not an opening, removed for viewing. Over the flat ceilings would be storage


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

The roof is an easy dilemma. It needs a roof so do the upgrade, because you'll just have to reroof later to upgrade it.

From the envelope side, it's get rid of moisture infiltration and interior moisture sources, air seal, insulate. Sometimes it makes sense to do old window air sealing incrementally, so you can tell when you hit a moisture problem and correct it before things get soaked.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Upstairs. Master suite area
> 
> This is where the pending fun will begin
> 
> ...


Awesome. I'm surprised the local Hysterical Society isn't all over that and gotten it put on the National Historical Registry.

Seriously, it's that rare.:thumbsup:


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

For a house this age...i think its in pretty good shape. I hope you get it. Good luck :thumbsup:


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Great find and a great potential for seeing it all come together.

Where is the reptile room?

Man...keep that sink...what a classic.

I can't imagine taking on a project like that without having the folks here at CT here for everything from ideas to support.

Good luck!


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## Krok (Jul 9, 2016)

blacktop said:


> That joist system Is impressive !!


"interesting" and "nightmare" also come to mind. Saving grace is that it's the OPs own house, so if it takes a long time no problem. Usually it's a bottom up proposition though.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Awesome. I'm surprised the local Hysterical Society isn't all over that and gotten it put on the National Historical Registry.
> 
> Seriously, it's that rare.:thumbsup:


It is a historical property. It was the First Whitney Coach stop. My dumpster guy owns the old first Whitney church about 2 miles up the road, nice pad all converted


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

In the front yard


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Wow. You can't buy a total dump with any kind of land here for 99 grand. Let alone anything with historical significance. Maybe a tiny mill house in a bad neighborhood.

As for remodeling before moving in, that is sage advice. It is very hard to work all day or week and then come home and do the same thing at home. Also, it is hard to focus. So many things need done, you bounce around and then it becomes overwhelming. At least do the main living areas first if you can.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I talked to the neighbor. He is actually a customer of mine, I tried out Malarkey's on his roof. His house and lot is comparable to this one in size and he said he got a deal on his house at 214k. If I can go through this whole house it will be worth somewhere in in the 250k+ range.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> In the front yard



The farmstead I grew up in is located in Springfield Township (Clarkston) at the intersection of two old dirt roads - Bridge Lake & Rattalee Lake Rd.

Where those two roads cross was called by the old timers as "The Four Corners". Just to the west is "Blackerby Hill - the highest point in Oakland County.

Anyway, the place was originally built by a "Beardsley", a great grand uncle of Paula (Beardsley) Blanchard of ex governor fame. For a long time, it was simply called "The Old Beardsley Place".

It too was a stage coach stop in 1837, same year Michigan became a state. The upstairs had its own separate parlor, rooms located all around that parlor for guests, and it's own hire help quarters.

Anyway, somewhere in time, I decided I wanted those back rooms for my own space as a kid, and it took Mom quite awhile to scrape out all the old feathers and stains from chickens (yes, the previous owners kept chickens up there - can you believe that?).

What else: Oh yeah, so this dude named John Delorean bought the farm just north of us so his wife Elizebeth could have a place for her horses. And a rock & roll fella I met and became good buddies with at the local clubs - talked him into buying a place on Shady Lane, which was just a mile east of our farm, and had access to my/our favorite fishing hole - Wau-me-ga Lake. That would be Bobbie Seger. We also tore the hell of my and the neighbors back fields with the old Pontiacs I kept around.

Well, actually, the biggest maniac was Mark Farner - hah! now he's a preacher man! I always told him everything I knew about rock & roll I got from church - guess he believes me now!

=======================================

Anyway, depending on your arse-kissing skills, you stand a good chance of getting some serious financial help from that National Historical Registry - if you get the place. If you do, then have a 3rd party make some discrete/anonymous inquiries on your behalf.

Oh, and save some swatches of the old wall paper - they like that sort of thing.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> If I can go through this whole house it will be worth somewhere in in the 250k+ range.


Never mind counting your chickens before they hatch, you don't even have eggs yet.:laughing:


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I talked to the neighbor. He is actually a customer of mine, I tried out Malarkey's on his roof. His house and lot is comparable to this one in size and he said he got a deal on his house at 214k. If I can go through this whole house it will be worth somewhere in in the 250k+ range.


When I first got started in this biz, I used to pray for customers like you.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Philament said:


> -Jacking timber frames up is a whole different kettle of fish than stick frame, everything is essentially point loaded and a number of joints don't take kindly to having pressure applied in the upwards direction.





A&E Exteriors said:


> I haven't crawled under yet. The front right corner is sagging pretty bad. I have about a 7" drop upstairs. It's not as pronounced on the first floor.


Congratulations, you're never going to be able to get that 7" straightened out. The beams have bent to accommodate the drop, so when you jack and repair, you're just going to be jacking humped beams back up, and it's going to try to tear things apart. The first floor was probably shimmed up at some point to get it level, but it has dropped more since then. Just a guess.

If you plan on getting the floors and ceilings level, plan on shimming or dropping the ceilings and shimming or raising the floors. Or you can just decide it's a piece of original charm and leave it, but 7" across a room is more than distracting.

Heed Philament's warning, it bears repeating.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

..knock it down..


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## Krok (Jul 9, 2016)

hdavis said:


> Just a guess....original charm


Guessing from experience?  Like with old vehicles, do you restore to original charm/form or make better, more current? Burnout makes old charm go by the wayside for me and have framed and rocked some very old beams that looked neat until later, when I got to them and had to deal with them. I'd start at the bottom.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Krok said:


> Guessing from experience?  Like with old vehicles, do you restore to original charm/form or make better, more current? Burnout makes old charm go by the wayside for me and have framed and rocked some very old beams that looked neat until later, when I got to them and had to deal with them. I'd start at the bottom.


Yup. Have to start at the bottom.

We need an intervention. I'm not suggesting that A&E not buy the place.

What I am saying is we need to grab A&E and his lady friend, and force them to watch "The Money Pit" non-stop for 24 hours, then let them out to pee real quick before they take a final exam on all the Life Lessons in that flic.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

hdavis said:


> Congratulations, you're never going to be able to get that 7" straightened out. The beams have bent to accommodate the drop, so when you jack and repair, you're just going to be jacking humped beams back up, and it's going to try to tear things apart. The first floor was probably shimmed up at some point to get it level, but it has dropped more since then. Just a guess.
> 
> If you plan on getting the floors and ceilings level, plan on shimming or dropping the ceilings and shimming or raising the floors. Or you can just decide it's a piece of original charm and leave it, but 7" across a room is more than distracting.
> 
> Heed Philament's warning, it bears repeating.


I know I will break something if I try to jack 7"....possibly die in the process. 

There's more than one way to level a floor. I have done a combination of jacking and running strings and shimming (term used loosely, more like cut tapered joists) with good results.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> ..knock it down..


No way.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

you will wind up adding so much wood sistering and such it would make more sense to knock it down and build a nice energy efficient ranch,the value is in the property not the house..jmo..


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

So our realtor called us this morning. There is a septic issue. She is looking for an answer as to what the issue is. I will be investigating that here pretty quick


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> So our realtor called us this morning. There is a septic issue. She is looking for an answer as to what the issue is. I will be investigating that here pretty quick


No kidding! Around here, worst case would be a whole new system, which takes stamped plans - $15-20K all done, assuming there isn't a soils / ledge problem.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

hdavis said:


> No kidding! Around here, worst case would be a whole new system, which takes stamped plans - $15-20K all done, assuming there isn't a soils / ledge problem.


Perfect. I'm looking into requirements now. Septic installation is a non licensed trade here. It's weird....you need to be licensed to dig the hole but not install the system.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Is that house on timber sills?


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

EricBrancard said:


> Is that house on timber sills?


I believe so


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Perfect. I'm looking into requirements now. Septic installation is a non licensed trade here. It's weird....you need to be licensed to dig the hole but not install the system.


Average cost here for a new system is 4-7k. I need to see what that Township requires....as in If I need to add a second tank.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I believe so


You are going to want to inspect those before you even begin thinking about anything else. If they are rotted and insect damaged, you will have to replace them. It's a lot of work. It's what the entire house sits on. The biggest mistake you can make is ignoring this step.

Even if the sills seem solid on the outside, you could have a completely soft center that's shaped like an upside down "U" from the foundation up. Make sure to inspect this.

I'm not an old house guy, but I have been involved in the restoration of a historic town property on a volunteer basis over the last few years. My roles have been serving on the project steering committee as well as one of the primary contractors performing the work.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> Is that house on timber sills?


You have to ask?:laughing:


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

hdavis said:


> You have to ask?:laughing:


You always have to ask:whistling


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> You always have to ask:whistling


If you don't see the beam sills, it because they turned to dust and blew away...


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

VinylHanger said:


> I think a guys skill set can determine this. If it needed a ton of dry rot work, that wouldn't scare me, as that is one if my main gigs.
> 
> However, if it needed a new foundation or a full restructuring of the roof assembly, I might have to think on it, as I don't do too much of that work.
> 
> ...


yea but you're not listening to what i'm saying..others are, we'll leave it at that:thumbsup:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

EricBrancard said:


> Still standing only means so much when large portions of wood are rotted/insect damaged and you could have floors out of level by 6-12". Kitchen and bathrooms are hacked together afterthoughts. Several generations worth of "modernizing" have been performed. Etc.
> 
> I know it's fashionable to go with the "they don't build them like they used to" stuff, but thank God for that.



Well said !




Not to mention,out moded mechanical s,lead paint,possibly asbestos in floor mastic and or tile.


Buildings are a lot like trucks,there comes a time when the most sensible thing to do with an old truck is to jack up the radiator cap and slip a new truck under it. Only exception is Colonial Williamsburg,and this is not that place. If it does not have good bones,why bother ?


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

fjn said:


> Well said !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you just described 99 percent of the houses I work on.

My main area for work right now is all old houses. Telling the person who owns the house that the best thing that they can do is to tear the place down and build a new one isn't an option.

You could but then don't expect to be working in that area for a long period of time.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

BucketofSteam said:


> I think you just described 99 percent of the houses I work on.
> 
> My main area for work right now is all old houses. Telling the person who owns the house that the best thing that they can do is to tear the place down and build a new one isn't an option.
> 
> You could but then don't expect to be working in that area for a long period of time.


I generally don't want to work on anything pre 1980 anyways. 

The actual structure of most homes is worth little in comparison to everything else. If it's small square footage or single floor and requires a full gut, the structure is virtually worthless at that point and it costs far more to gut and remodel than demo and start from scratch. Most people find it hard to come to grips with this, though.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

BucketofSteam said:


> I think you just described 99 percent of the houses I work on.
> 
> My main area for work right now is all old houses. Telling the person who owns the house that the best thing that they can do is to tear the place down and build a new one isn't an option.
> 
> You could but then don't expect to be working in that area for a long period of time.





I hear you loud and clear on that one. However,in this scenario,we are wanting to give some good guidance to one of our own.


Everyone is entitled to get caught up in the romance of saving an old building. In that process,one can get a tad quick on the draw and shoot themselves in the foot. However,there is no sense in reloading and taking dead center aim at your remaining toes.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> yea but you're not listening to what i'm saying..others are, we'll leave it at that:thumbsup:




:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Old adages came about for a reason. The one that comes to my mind is "you cannot turn a hog's ear into a silk purse".


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

fjn said:


> I hear you loud and clear on that one. However,in this scenario,we are wanting to give some good guidance to one of our own.
> 
> 
> Everyone is entitled to get caught up in the romance of saving an old building. In that process,one can get a tad quick on the draw and shoot themselves in the foot. However,there is no sense in reloading and taking dead center aim at your remaining toes.


The thing is the line between shooting yourself in the foot and getting a great deal is nearly none existent.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

BucketofSteam said:


> The thing is the line between shooting yourself in the foot and getting a great deal is nearly none existent.




That is true. A good bit of advice a very knowledgeable real estate professional told me many moons ago "you do not make your money when you sell property,you make it when you buy property" In other word,be extremely careful you do not over pay.


The harsh reality of many old buildings regarding their fair market value lies in this formula. Separate the land value from the demolition costs,then subtract the PITA factor from the remainder. 


You do have to figure in the PITA to the equation 'cause even though you end up with a clean slate (in this case building site) time and knowledge has their value.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

BucketofSteam said:


> Telling the person who owns the house that the best thing that they can do is to tear the place down and build a new one isn't an option.
> 
> You could but then don't expect to be working in that area for a long period of time.


I was there when the electrician lead told an investor they should have built new. The investor spit out the numbers behind it all, then booted the electricians.:laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I've seen plenty of old houses go for more than they should. I can't tell you how many hours I've spent saving old architectural details that aren't generally special or have a modern look-a-like.

The problem with a lot of houses is if you offer the actual price that makes economic sense, somebody else who doesn't know what they're doing will offer more, or the owner may turn it down. I think I've looked at 3 or 4 in the past couple years that didn't go through for those reasons. One guy wouldn't sell short, then it went into foreclosure and went for 30% less than the investor offered.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Average cost here for a new system is 4-7k. I need to see what that Township requires....as in If I need to add a second tank.


Pretty sweet, every thing here is engineered and pricey.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> If it's small square footage or single floor and requires a full gut, the structure is virtually worthless at that point and it costs far more to gut and remodel than demo and start from scratch. Most people find it hard to come to grips with this, though.


A big key is not gutting it, for a few reasons. I'll trench walls if I have to...


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

hdavis said:


> A big key is not gutting it, for a few reasons. I'll trench walls if I have to...


it all depends on what you're willing to live with at the end of the project.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Ive worked on one historical renovation. I hated it. There was a reason the guy who owned it was rich, simply because he wanted to preserve it.

Historical reno's are expensive, Darcy does a lot of stuff for them I think, and he ain't a cheap bird to fly with.

Hate to be Debbie downer but I wouldn't touch it with your money. Got to figure you got probably 30-50k in just making it stable and safe. Go find a plot of dirt and build new. Work for the "historical" salvation people, don't try to become one. See the line below my name.... Thats because I learned a tough lesson.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> it all depends on what you're willing to live with at the end of the project.


Scratch straight, plumb, level and square from the specs, and you're on your way!

Doesn't work at all well in a lot of baths and kitchens, so those are prime gut candidates.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

You could alter the whole structure with some tripled up LVL's supported at key load points 

I've cut out three exterior walls in this way for an addition supporting a whole 2nd floor on top...anything can be done with engineering knowledge..or hire an engineer...if your heart is in it and you have the cash do it 

If I were to do it yeah it would be bottom to top and treated like a complete gut...no other way....I did this for 10 years and there is ALWAYS way more than you think there is....so if you pull the trigger....be ready...you'll probably have to sacrifice some finishes as your budget will get eaten quickly...but by all means get the house structurally sound first...then work on the floor plan 

I did rehabs for 10 years....glad I don't do em anymore....hope you are under 45 in good health with a lot of patience and even more money


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## Krok (Jul 9, 2016)

fjn said:


> If it does not have good bones,why bother ?


Location for one, as in zoning. A new building might not be permissible for a variety of reasons, or at least at that spot. Don't remember if I mentioned the 50% rule, but if it goes over that you run into conforming issues.

It may be a shack with issues, but we already know that. Price it accordingly and just know your 5 year plan may be real, as in through a long time of extra work, extra drinking, etc. it may be 5 years before it's done. Talk to the local building inspector about any 50% rules.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Deckhead said:


> Got to figure you got probably 30-50k in just making it stable and safe.


Too early to figure out what this one will be. I'll say this - it's a mistake to not include your labor cost in one of these. If it's a "spare time" thing, cost it the way you charge for "spare time" work, which should be more than your day rate...


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

hdavis said:


> Too early to figure out what this one will be. I'll say this - it's a mistake to not include your labor cost in one of these. If it's a "spare time" thing, cost it the way you charge for "spare time" work, which should be more than your day rate...


I've done similar and he'll spend what he's paying to get it by the time he's done...maybe more....plus the septic...which is almost a given anytime you are looking at a house that old


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

hdavis said:


> Too early to figure out what this one will be. I'll say this - it's a mistake to not include your labor cost in one of these. If it's a "spare time" thing, cost it the way you charge for "spare time" work, which should be more than your day rate...





Irishslave said:


> I've done similar and he'll spend what he's paying to get it by the time he's done...maybe more....plus the septic...which is almost a given anytime you are looking at a house that old


Just in the planning stage this evening to see if I can make this work or not with a Rennovation morgatage (as we were told almost no chance at a conventional with the interior condition) and I am ballparking 35k (material plus labor)as of this second just to get a certificate of occupancy after the work starts...I'm sure it will go to 40 or 45 when I give it more thought....which bumps up the monthly payment, which pushes it all further away. I initially figured in the five year plan that I'd put 70 into the rennovations. But would rather pay as I go and not borrow it on the front side so we will see where it goes. I mean I can actually pay myself to do this, which is cool but that payment goes up with every dollar borrowed.

For now the existing kitchen and bath are both in the rear section of the house and function so they will be updated at the very end. If this even happens.

I checked the crawlspace and sills today. Where the biggest drop is seems to be an early add on. The foundation there has seemingly never been repointed and is crumbly...the sills are in kinda rough shape there. So I'd have to start with, demo, shoring up and jacking on that third of the main structure, then the roof framing etc upstairs, whole house electrical, blah blah blah.



Here are some pics I took today.

Crawlspace under dropping side of house








Front dropped corner








Front wall








Rear wall







side wall


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

That foundation work might just push us a bit to far.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Oooh, that's ugly. I may have to take what I said earlier back. See Tom, I'm listening. 

As a guy from the west coast, things are a lot different here. Very little if any old timber frames, log sills, etc. Semi modern balloon framing is as far back as we go. The upside to that is that pretty much anything is fixable with modern framing techniques and a little imagination. If it isn't literally falling down, it is usually sturdy and has enough double walled sheer built in that it is easily saveable. I have cut balloon framed studs and just let them hang for a few days until I got back to them. No movement at all.

So in this case I must admit a lack of knowledge of early 19th. century building techniques. That being said, if a guy was an early 19th. century foundation repair guy, it might be a great deal. I also think that 35,000 is not nearly enough.

I still got your back though A&E, as I can totally relate to what you are wanting and needing to do in order to put a roof over your families head.. :thumbsup:


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

VinylHanger said:


> Oooh, that's ugly. I may have to take what I said earlier back. See Tom, I'm listening.
> 
> As a guy from the west coast, things are a lot different here. Very little if any old timber frames, log sills, etc. Semi modern balloon framing is as far back as we go. The upside to that is that pretty much anything is fixable with modern framing techniques and a little imagination. If it isn't literally falling down, it is usually sturdy and has enough double walled sheer built in that it is easily saveable. I have cut balloon framed studs and just let them hang for a few days until I got back to them. No movement at all.
> 
> ...


I am going to ask the inspector if we can put in permenant grade temporary supports. I was thinking 2 full length beams (one mid span, one at the outer wall each supported by 4 posts resting on concrete footers below the frost line and still get a certificate of occupancy. 

Foundation repair is not in the 35k starting point.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Deckhead said:


> Ive worked on one historical renovation. I hated it. There was a reason the guy who owned it was rich, simply because he wanted to preserve it.
> 
> Historical reno's are expensive, Darcy does a lot of stuff for them I think, and he ain't a cheap bird to fly with.
> 
> Hate to be Debbie downer but I wouldn't touch it with your money. Got to figure you got probably 30-50k in just making it stable and safe. Go find a plot of dirt and build new. Work for the "historical" salvation people, don't try to become one. See the line below my name.... Thats because I learned a tough lesson.



Well.....

There's "historic restoration",
and there's "taking an old house and making it your home".

Two totally different things.

That being said.....
This looks like something for a moneyed buyer interested in the former.

If I was looking for the latter (even with $60k in cash and three months to take off),
I wouldn't touch it with your deck. :thumbsup:

(Eh....
I might.
I mean....I did.
Which is probably why I'm saying I wouldn't. :whistling )


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> That foundation work might just push us a bit to far.


And that's what everyone else has been saying since 1820s when it was built!

Don't you worry: some nice empty nester couple someplace will cash out their 401K, cozy up to the Historical Society, blow 300-400K on it and turn it into a Bed & Breakfast.

...and they'll get together with their "resto" friends once a month and share a nice glass of Chablis.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I am going to ask the inspector if we can put in permenant grade temporary supports. I was thinking 2 full length beams (one mid span, one at the outer wall each supported by 4 posts resting on concrete footers below the frost line and still get a certificate of occupancy.
> 
> Foundation repair is not in the 35k starting point.


If you can't get yourself into the house, in a reasonable amount of time, with a perfectly livable kitchen, bath, and bedroom, (and preferably a place to watch TV and hang with friends), and be able to close off the rest of the house........you should think twice.


The only way I survived mine, was to pull $30k in cash, take 4 months off, abandon my new wife and baby boy, work 20 hours a day seven days a week, sleep at the house on a ratty twin mattress on the floor, and end up looking something like Howard Hughes (in his bad days).

.....and that was just to get to the "we can survive here without being miserably depressed every day" stage (as mentioned above).

.....and I was able to live with my POS roof for 4 years before I redid it, and had only very minor termite related structural issues.

From there....
I kept a rock-solid rule of NEVER, EVER, partially toying with chit.

I got my cash together, waited for (or created) a break in my schedule, bartered labor with my guys and other tradesman,
and got each successive room/job done COMPLETELY.

No missing casings, door knobs, skimmed but unpainted rooms......etc.

I believe I was able to stick with it, and most importantly, maintain a sunny disposition throughout the whole thing, only because I followed this plan almost without exception.
(My master suite was the exception.
I had three other fully restored bedrooms, so I just kept the door shut as I worked on it.
It took me well over a year.)

8 years later....
And I just finished the last room this spring.


Don't discount the psychological toll of constantly living on a construction site.
My BFF is knee deep in one right now.
Despite a ton of help from everyone in the local trades, he fell short of his move-in deadline.
He and his family are living with lacquered Advantek countertops on a 2x4 frame over a dishwasher and milk crates.....and that's just one room's woes.

Same turnover as you.
$90k purchase.....$250 potential.
But.....at what "cost"?

He's friggin miserable these days.
He fishes more than works on the house because it's all so daunting that he needs to just get away from it.
Hard to case a historic window with extensions when all your out buildings are full of your stuff that should be in the house, your kids are running around the same floor as the lead paint may be falling on, your wife is tired from work and needs you to watch them for a bit, you're gonna have to set it all up and then break it all down and clean up...........and you just realize you left your nail guns at work.

Not trying to talk you out of it. Really.

I know I love my house so much that I am fairly sure I will be buried in my back pasture some day, and I'll be sipping cocktails on my buddy's restored screened porch by the river someday soon....ish.

Eyes wide open though. :thumbsup:

It can be incredibly rewarding to restore an old gem.
It can also break you, in more ways than financially.

*Be very pragmatic and realistic as you consider it.
Unbridled optimism is for cheerleaders and Labradors.....not old home buyers.*


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## Philament (Dec 9, 2014)

VinylHanger said:


> Oooh, that's ugly. I may have to take what I said earlier back. See Tom, I'm listening.
> 
> As a guy from the west coast, things are a lot different here. Very little if any old timber frames, log sills, etc. Semi modern balloon framing is as far back as we go. The upside to that is that pretty much anything is fixable with modern framing techniques and a little imagination. If it isn't literally falling down, it is usually sturdy and has enough double walled sheer built in that it is easily saveable. I have cut balloon framed studs and just let them hang for a few days until I got back to them. No movement at all.
> 
> ...


From the way some were talking in this thread, it seemed pretty clear they'd never tried to repair a timber framed house before or they'd say RUN. 

Replacing/repairing timber framed sills with the joists tusk tenoned and pegged with all the point loaded posts with let in braces is by far the most difficult repair I can think of. Balloon framed... no problem, lots of redundancies, squared framing members to jack against. 

Quite often the girts were haunched tenons to take loads in the downward direction








If you start trying to lift the frame by jacking those joints, you risk snapping the whole tenon. Not to mention the tie beams which look substantial, but are merely to tie the bents together and the joinery was only designed for being in tension. Sometimes you can jack from the girts if you reinforce across the joint with plate steel and through bolts, but usually you have to jack everything from the posts with cribbing and either steel beams bolted to the posts on either side, or some creative wooden rigging bolted to the posts. Check to see if the tenons are pulling out of the mortises too, quite often the posts have splayed out at the bottom and you have to pull the frame back together with come alongs while you're jacking. 

This particular one looks like what I would call "farmer built", typically round field stone foundation that is just kind of dump there, crumbling apart and missing a lot of stones. A combination of either they never put it much above grade and it settles a lot or the grade has come up to the sills over the years. Either way, you're looking at massive foundation work, timber work, and probably some regrading. Rounded logs instead of fully squared timbers of mixed species...generally not something worth salvaging if the sills are gone. 

Barn repairs are a lot easier (still a crap ton of work) as they quite often don't have joists on the first floor to contend with for sill replacement, houses with all the interior finishes and mechanical/plumbing/electrical are a nightmare. 

If you've never seen it done, it's pretty cool, here's a really good video of the process. 




This one uses the steel beam method which looks somewhat similar to a typical house lift. If you watch closely though, you'll see they bolted the posts to the steel beams. 





BRG speaks truth! Anything is possible, but at what cost. When I did these restorations, I was fine living in a tent for months, full of p:ss n vinegar, a lot of help to share the labour burden and it was someone else's money. I wouldn't dream of it now. You can't really "poke away" at timber frame repairs.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Look optimism is great and all but the meanest thing any of us could do is tell you this is a good idea knowing full well you've got a 150k renovation. Granted none of us can be throwing out numbers but I couldnt possibly see getting that thing done for less dough. The work, oh God the work will be brutal. We can usually find something a meth head blew up for pretty cheap.

Meth and crack problems are so much easier to fix than historical problems. I agree it would be cool, it could fulfill a dream, it might even be fun... but it will not be cheap and easy. Seems more like it should be an investment of love like BRG said he did with less emphasis on money and more on function.

Hey, like the dating world... you gotta bust through 5 2's before you can find a 10.


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

Speaking of the dating world, you might want to shore up your contract with your significant other. At least define terms. 

It would be silly to enter a project of this magnitude without mutual understanding of future expectations. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I'll just say leave love out of it, and make a financial analysis first. If a girl is going to break you, fall in love with someone else.:whistling

Base offer price, if you make one, would be value of the lot minus the demo and clean up costs. I don't think this is a candidate for it, but on a building with a really bad section that is too expensive to fix, demoing that section off and walling in what's left can be cost effective, but you still have to tie everything together before you can do that. One step up in cost is rebuilding that section new, and if you can put baths and kitchens in it, your remodel costs for those go *WAY* down.

I'm not encouraging you to buy this, but I am encouraging you to go through the planning and looking at options and issues. You'll learn more that way, so you start getting good at knowing what to look for, and what it entails. 

There are also some not obvious things that you can come across when you get into an actual remodel, like assume the outside walls are clad with boards that perform structural functions. You actually have to verify that they don't before you plan on cutting / removing any.

Forget about notching and boring with the tree trunk joists - they're bouncy with full depth, and sag is usual. Plan on running your water / electric / waste some other way. One thing I've picked up on this board is the Chicago drywall ceiling grid. This can be a perfect way to drop a ceiling and pick up room for running plumbing, etc.

You actually have to have good measurements of the outside of the building and all the rooms. Put it into your CAD system and see if it makes sense. You can wind up with dead spaces in the floor plan that you didn't notice. Old cellar ways, old chimneys, what ever, that were covered over years ago. These can be a blessing or a curse in a remodel.

Working on old buildings is potentially full of surprises, some pleasant, and many more unpleasant. One of the smartest things you can do is plan on remodeling in such a way that you avoid areas that frequently have the nastiest surprises. The only way you get good at figuring out how much it's going to cost and what your options are is by going through all the details or just doing a bunch of them. Learning on paper is a lot less stressful than OJT.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

hdavis said:


> I'll just say leave love out of it, and make a financial analysis first. If a girl is going to break you, fall in love with someone else.:whistling
> 
> Base offer price, if you make one, would be value of the lot minus the demo and clean up costs. I don't think this is a candidate for it, but on a building with a really bad section that is too expensive to fix, demoing that section off and walling in what's left can be cost effective, but you still have to tie everything together before you can do that. One step up in cost is rebuilding that section new, and if you can put baths and kitchens in it, your remodel costs for those go *WAY* down.
> 
> ...


Yeah. Was up late planning last night and I think I am tapped out at phase 1


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)




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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

A&E Exteriors said:


>


A&E I think the general consensus has tried to steer you away from this undertaking 

I don't know what the market is like in your area but certainly you can find something you like that needs a lot less work 

Almost any house you buy, you'll sink some work and money into 

When I went looking back in 2010 I had 70k to work with...even after the crash/devaluation everything under 100k was junk...I kept looking..finally we came upon one for 60k in a 140k neighborhood....I looked it over...need some painting and I noticed the "p" trap under the kitchen sink was missing....no big deal I got boxes of those...I ended up replacing everything under the sink and putting in a new water heater the first few days after closing 

Long story short I've been here 6 years...I've put in a new kitchen, resided the whole exterior, painted the inside and a few other things...but I wanted something I could move into and spend as I could..This is what you want...you don't wanna be crashing your livelihood into your house...too much stress 

The only way I could see it as feasible and I don't know if it's legal, you'd have to speak with an accountant, but you could try to set it up under corporate ownership and write off some of the expense...since this would be your principle residence I don't know about the legality 

I could have took the 70k and made a down payment on something ostentatious....I took the easiest way out I could and payed cash for something I could manage...Life's a *****...you don't want another one when you get home


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> A&E I think the general consensus has tried to steer you away from this undertaking
> 
> I don't know what the market is like in your area but certainly you can find something you like that needs a lot less work
> 
> ...





A&E Exteriors said:


> Yeah. Was up late planning last night and I think I am tapped out at phase 1


I don't see it happening. I can afford the house, or the remodel, not both


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

You're really looking for a lipstick at the right price, or maybe something a little worse, not a headache. Look for places that scare people away but are relatively cheap to redo.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

..or..or..find something you don't have to work on and put that time into your business..


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## gbruzze1 (Dec 17, 2008)

Tom Struble said:


> ..or..or..find something you don't have to work on and put that time into your business..




Or your sanity. Ask me how I know 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

do i wanna know?..i mean you may be insane..:vs_smirk:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Tom Struble said:


> ..or..or..find something you don't have to work on and put that time into your business..


Doesn't seem to be an option for him, but you never know...


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

hdavis said:


> The problem with a lot of houses is if you offer the actual price that makes economic sense, somebody else who doesn't know what they're doing will offer more, or the owner may turn it down. I think I've looked at 3 or 4 in the past couple years that didn't go through for those reasons. One guy wouldn't sell short, then it went into foreclosure and went for 30% less than the investor offered.




This brings to mind another old adage "a fool and his money are soon parted".


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

hdavis said:


> Doesn't seem to be an option for him, but you never know...


think small,something that suits your needs,maybe needs a new roof and siding,your first house doesn't have to be your last


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Tom Struble said:


> think small,something that suits your needs,maybe needs a new roof and siding,your first house doesn't have to be your last


Or......
something that was well-maintained and last updated like 30-50 years ago.

Then...
You ....CAN......remodel certain areas, but you don't HAVE to.

The profound difference between those two realities cannot be overstated.


On to the next one.
There are so many houses out there.
Time is on your side.
Right now.....you're in the drivers seat with your hands firmly on the wheel.
Enjoy the ride. :thumbsup:


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

Houses are overrated. Buy a second van and live in that.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> ..or..or..find something you don't have to work on and put that time into your business..


That's no fun. I wanted this one so bad because you don't always get the chance to do what I wanted to do it.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I had to finish my model


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Keep in mind that we're all just a bunch of jealous bastids. I'd love to get my hands on an 1820's farmhouse, if I could somehow shed the wife, the kids, and about 30 years.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Keep in mind that we're all just a bunch of jealous bastids. I'd love to get my hands on an 1820's farmhouse, if I could somehow shed the wife, the kids, and about 30 years.


Lol! All I know is I wanted that 33 feet of wide open exposed timber ceiling


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## gbruzze1 (Dec 17, 2008)

You should be proud of that sketch up model. Print it out, put it in a frame, and set it on your coffee table. 


Gary


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I guess it's not to bad for a roofer. I have about 12 hours into it.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

I'm telling ya - yer passing up a great B&B opportunity...

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2011/08/whitneyville_tavern_stand_date.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitney_Tavern_Stand

_"The Worcesters are history buffs and have taken great pains to ensure any remodeling of the house maintains its historical character and authenticity. The rooms are filled with period antiques and the original bay windows remain covered by storm panes year-round.

“Living in an old house requires you to love it,” Bob Worcester said."_


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## dibs16 (Nov 30, 2010)

Congrats man, Ive been following this thread as this is something i recently went through. For us it made more sense to buy a smaller, but totally remodeled house in a cheaper area of the state. Looked at old houses, but with fha rules, limited cash on hand, and only a hundred or two difference in mortgage a month, it didnt seem worth the trouble for us (2 kids also..) 

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Hell, I could come up with 4 or 5 camper trailers from the girlfriends family


Might be an opportunity to get creative..................


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Rio said:


> Might be an opportunity to get creative..................


I know this is bad but I actually like the way that looks. I wouldn't ever live in it but it makes a kick ass tree house.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Make a hell of an air bnb..............


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