# Why can you haggle w/ me?



## RopeaGoat (Sep 21, 2007)

Just completed on Wednesday installing a new wash tub and replacing a vanity with a pedistal lav. When I handed the bill of $625 (The tub, pedistal, and faucet all wonderful Glacier Bay provided by HO) the HO decided it was time to haggle. Funny how I have to pay the supply house bill for the pipe, shutoffs, and traps without question; and my fuel, insurance, and workman's comp w/out haggling. What let's this jackoff think my bill to him is any different? Just a late Sunday vent prior to the next week. The job took roughly 5 hours. Am I way off on price?

Thanks for any feedback.:wallbash:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Can't help you on the "way off" question ~ was the number given upfront?...other than that....I agree with you.

Do we haggle with:
The kid at the counter wherever you get your morning blast of caffeine ?
The person at the gas station?
Your doctor, lawyer, CPA?
The deli counter guy?
etc etc etc

When a customer begins that angle with me, I ask them those questions.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

*tell the client you made an error and go higher. much higher*

tell him you are new to haggling and go higher instead of lower. Than give him a corrected invoice for 1100 dollars. Tell him 'hey you wanted to haggle ,,well we haggled,,, and that invoice includes the cost of wasting my time haggling"


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

A W Smith said:


> tell him you are new to haggling and go higher instead of lower. Than give him a corrected invoice for 1100 dollars. Tell him 'hey you wanted to haggle ,,well we haggled,,, and that invoice includes the cost of wasting my time haggling"


 
:clap::laughing:


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

RopeaGoat said:


> Just completed on Wednesday installing a new wash tub and replacing a vanity with a pedistal lav. When I handed the bill of $625 (The tub, pedistal, and faucet all wonderful Glacier Bay provided by HO) the HO decided it was time to haggle. Funny how I have to pay the supply house bill for the pipe, shutoffs, and traps without question; and my fuel, insurance, and workman's comp w/out haggling. What let's this jackoff think my bill to him is any different? Just a late Sunday vent prior to the next week. The job took roughly 5 hours. Am I way off on price?
> 
> Thanks for any feedback.:wallbash:


I'm not exactly sure what a washtub would be but my price on the ped lav w/faucet would have been $638.00 for standard installation. This does not include moving of water lines or any necessary drain reworking to accomodate a ped lav. It also would not include new stops if necessary. However I would not have lifted a single tool without going over what was going to be necessary with the HO including exactly what would be done as well as exactly what it would cost. After I obtained his signature authorizing the work to be done, then and only then would I have done it. This eliminates any possibility of haggling.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I read these posts and I have a very short fuse. How you guys deal with this *&$# is beyond me. I have stuck with new construction since I started and now I see why. All my work is 50k plus, you are dealing with a small $ 625.00 invoice and the dickhead wants to haggle, how much ^%$#ing wiggle room does he think there is? Tell the guy to &^$# off, as a matter of fact pull $ 500.00 out of your pocket and give it to him then thank him for the privilage of working on his house. 

Sorry, that's my temper


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

Every great once in a while I'll get something like this. It is rare, and I have very little patience for it. THe only time I can recall where I got in their face was some whac job of a lady...it was TnM, I gave an estimated price but it was just an estimate. I wrote her up I was about 20% higher than my estimate, she threw a sh*t fit. Long story short - she was yelled at - insulted - and her intelligence was challanged. I informed her of what she was going to do, including getting her check book out, writting my check out, and never call me again. Got the hell out of there went straight to her bank and cashed that puppy out. As I am walking out I hear a teller on the phone saying something like "I'm sorry ma`am, the check was already cashed". I loved it. Made my day and I never heard from her again.

Lesson learned? U betcha!

I got alot more accurate in my numbers, and changed my work authorizon form. But this is so rare for me, most people are understanding that this is gonna be expensive and that's the way I like it. I got a very expensive wife and kids.


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

JamesNLA said:


> I got a very expensive wife and kids.


LOL, Im pretty expensive myself, how bout you?


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

RopeaGoat said:


> Just completed on Wednesday installing a new wash tub and replacing a vanity with a pedistal lav. When I handed the bill of $625 (The tub, pedistal, and faucet all wonderful Glacier Bay provided by HO) the HO decided it was time to haggle. Funny how I have to pay the supply house bill for the pipe, shutoffs, and traps without question; and my fuel, insurance, and workman's comp w/out haggling. What let's this jackoff think my bill to him is any different? Just a late Sunday vent prior to the next week. The job took roughly 5 hours. Am I way off on price?
> 
> 
> Boy ,this brings me back in time!
> ...


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

naaah, I'm fairly inexpensive. I do love an expensive steak - and I don't like cheap beer. But I'm still in family mode....meaning I get whatever is left over. Just got done with the Nutcracker (still don't understand it), my little one performed in it. Almost a grand from start to finish and countless hours at that pit hole of a dance studio. What did that buy me? about 45 seconds of seeing my kid on stage, and I got to pay for dinner for everyone afterwards. So yeah, I'm looking forward to not spending anymore money the rest of the month.


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## Herk (Aug 1, 2007)

A lot of plumbers get hot whenever a flat rate discussion pops up, but this is a classic example of why flat rate works. I've only been doing it for about a month, but I'm loving it. I give that up front price, and it's simply a matter of yes or no. 

If you told the customer, "I charge $125 an hour," they'd say, "I'll have to check around." Customers can't believe what it costs to do business, and since plumbers have a reputation of being expensive, they feel obligated to argue about the price. But they don't have to pay your business expenses. Only you know what those are and what your base rate has to be to cover them.

T & M guys often cover for a low hourly rate by adding a "service call" or a "trip" charge, making fifteen minutes into an hour, marking up material as much as 100% including that supplied by the customer, and any other trick they can use to get what they need while keeping a low hourly rate so that people won't be turned off by the hourly quote. This leads to bad feelings with the customer who says, "I have to drive to work every day and I don't get paid for it," or, "I bought those materials - you can't mark them up!"

Is the customer buying the services of the company, or are they hiring you like day labor from the employment office? They think you work 8 hours a day and get paid for every one of them. They think that if someone else is dumb enough to charge $65 per hour and they seem to be making it, you should be dumb enough to charge that much, too, because that's the "going rate." Whatever the lowest rate in the area is, they think that's the going rate.

So you can't let the customer run your business. If you do, you're bankrupt before you get in your truck for that first job.

I'm in a one-man business, too, and I realize that customers think that my price is something I just pulled out of my nether regions, so I understand this scenario very well. I've had horrible, difficult, long jobs where my hourly price got cut in half because even though we agreed upon a rate before I started, the customer complained that they thought it wouldn't take that long.

A price that's agreed upon before you start solves a lot of problems. Of course there are other problems, such as all those really strange jobs that aren't in the book. But at least you have a price and a signature before you start and there is no longer any room for haggling.

FWIW, the price, at 5 hours and rough materials included, sounds pretty average.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

I have to agree that the time to discuss money is before the work is done. If your client feels your price is unreasonable, have him tell you what is. My guess is he isn't seeing anything but the bottom line. $625.00 was more than he budgeted for.

This is 2007 almost 2008. Gas is $3.099 a gallon on average. Cheap digital cable is almost $40.00 a month. Hell, a telephone of almost any sort starts at $30.00 to $40.00 a month, depending on fees, etc. My guess is this person just doesn't understand the cost of putting an educated, licensed, bonded, insured, trained professional in their home is slightly more expensive than they were expecting. Welcome to 2008.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

If the job is a $ 700.00 job, write up the proposal as $ 800.00 - $ 100.00 on time payment discount = $ 700.00

Then insert this clause in your contract:

*"Any and all warranties or discounts offered shall become null and void if all payment terms are not precisely made on time as agreed."*

That will give you further grounds to stand on during a haggling session. If they do not want to abide by the payment terms, it will cost them the full price of the contract for putting you through this BS.

Ed


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## POOLMANinCT (Oct 7, 2006)

i would have had at least 500 of that in my pocket before starting.


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

That whole scenario would have set off alarms. HO bought from HO Depot would be the first clue. Anyone too cheap to buy my product isn't my type of customer, unless the product was some thousand dollar faucet.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

one reason is that they have been trained to haggle with contractors...we've taught them to do it..

but as a side note...anyone who does residential service T&M is asking for trouble. by the time you give them the bill, you're already done. You have no leverage...you have no legal standing...you have no hope other than they are nice people and will actually pay you.

you've already done the work...you've already installed the material...and in most states it's illegal for you to repossess it once you installed it.

you have not only agreed to do the work for a sub-par wage (most T&M rates are well below what they truly should be) but now you have no recourse to collect the money.

The only things worse than doing residential service work T&M is mixing politics or religion with your money...


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

Ed the Roofer said:


> If the job is a $ 700.00 job, write up the proposal as $ 800.00 - $ 100.00 on time payment discount = $ 700.00
> 
> Then insert this clause in your contract:
> 
> ...


On time payment? We're not leaving the house without cash, check, or credit card totaling the full amount. The job costs what it costs. I know it's more than you want to pay but this is what it costs. We do excellant work but you have to pay. I know you'de like it for free or at least if I would knock a little off but that is not possible. I'm not in this to live paycheck to paycheck. Got two kids in private school and I'm not eating anymore spaghetti unless I just want to. My truck cost $50k, fully stocked with parts and fixtures add $10k more, with all my tools, sewer machines, cameras, locators, etc. add $20k more. I'm spending close to 20k a year for all of my insurances. Blah blah blah etc etc etc. That's why it cost you a $59.00 service charge to get me to your house and $199.00 to do a minor rebuild on your toilet. Yeah I know you could buy all the parts at Blowes for $15 and could do the work in 30 minutes but if I do it it costs $258.00.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

smellslike$tome said:


> My truck cost $50k, fully stocked with parts and fixtures add $10k more, with all my tools, sewer machines, cameras, locators, etc. add $20k more. I'm spending close to 20k a year for all of my insurances. Blah blah blah etc etc etc. That's why it cost you a $59.00 service charge to get me to your house and $199.00 to do a minor rebuild on your toilet. Yeah I know you could buy all the parts at Blowes for $15 and could do the work in 30 minutes but if I do it it costs $258.00.


This is what some people just don't seem to understand.. Specialty tools and knowing how to use them to get the job done right. Sure the materials cost may not be that much, but if they had the time, tools and knowledge on how to do it, you wouldn't be there in the first place.


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## RopeaGoat (Sep 21, 2007)

Fellas,
Thanks for the input. I'm working and researching the flat rate angle and definately see the benefit. My boss/dad has been a T&M guy for ~30 years for his service work and there are definate holes in his boat. Not knocking the guy but I'm learning from his misfortunes and aggravations along with his knowledge of the trade and code.


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## Herk (Aug 1, 2007)

Ropeagoat said:


> I'm working and researching the flat rate angle and definately see the benefit.


In some areas of the country, where you can charge an hourly rate that matches what it actually costs you to do business and you have lots of work, you can do just about as well with T & M. But I think there are more advantages to FR. As more people move into my area from other places, I find that they expect a price before I start.


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## The plumber (Jul 5, 2007)

Times are changing guys. Thanks to do it yourself shows and internet research. People are misinformed daily on prices and our business. How many times have you heard the guys on diy say "we spent $x on plumbing $x dollars on electrical"? Well I'd charge a low price too if I could get on t.v. and advertise my business. I once saw a show that said around $300.00 for lighting and they had 3 electricians on the job. 3 electricians for $300.00 my #$$. Then you have forums like yahoo answers. There is always some guy bashing contractors saying their ripping you off, and it should only be $50.00 because that's what he paid in 1985 for the same thing. I say all this because the house I went to today. I was the 5th plumber to give him an estimate because he learned you should get atleast 4 estimates off the internet and that the price should be around $250 for the 4 hours of work he needed done.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 1, 2006)

Whaddya think this is a yard sale?!!


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

The plumber said:


> Times are changing guys. Thanks to do it yourself shows and internet research. People are misinformed daily on prices and our business. How many times have you heard the guys on diy say "we spent $x on plumbing $x dollars on electrical"? Well I'd charge a low price too if I could get on t.v. and advertise my business. I once saw a show that said around $300.00 for lighting and they had 3 electricians on the job. 3 electricians for $300.00 my #$$. Then you have forums like yahoo answers. There is always some guy bashing contractors saying their ripping you off, and it should only be $50.00 because that's what he paid in 1985 for the same thing. I say all this because the house I went to today. I was the 5th plumber to give him an estimate because he learned you should get atleast 4 estimates off the internet and that the price should be around $250 for the 4 hours of work he needed done.


Went on a diy nightmare call yesterday. Man and his buddy had started to install a decoragtive vanity with one of those crappy HD pr*c% pf#[email protected] widespread faucets. It's not often that I take over an install from a diy'er like that but the guy needed a tail piece extension, ran out of time before he had to go out of town and since I had repaired his water service about a year ago he called me. I get there and look at it and quote $199.00 to his wife. I explain that I would not warranty any part of it and also explain that on that brand of faucet the pop up drain assembly (it's already installed as is the rest of the faucet) nearly always causes trouble. So she thinks that's just way too much and wants to call her husband. I talk to him and he talks to her and about 10 minutes later they reluctantly authorize the work. Very nice people they just have no clue about what it takes to be in this business. Anyway, I get everything hooked up and sure enough the drain leaks. So at no charge I dissassemble it (once) and reinstall it. It still leaks but just barely and only when you fill the basin. I explain this to her and she decides that since it is a powder room vanity no one is likely to fill the basin and we should just leave it the way it was. I also point out to her that "whoever installed the faucet" reversed the hot and cold stems so now the handles point out in the off position. I explain that I can fix it but it will cost more, she declines. As soon as I stepped onto the diy tile floor in the powder room I immediately knew there was a problem. It creaked and flexed. I look down and sure enough it might be the worst grout job I've ever seen. I pull up the air register and find the tile is laid directly on the subfloor no doubt the result of some fine HD tile install advice. I'm not a tile man but isn't that a big no no? Anyway, super nice people. I like them and they like me I only offer the experience as another example of how little diy'ers often know about what they are doing.


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

*FARK UM!* I like the ones that call me after they have spent all weekend screwing things up, and when you get there the husband is gone because he is too embarassed about what the wife tells me," I dont care what it cost, just fix it". *GITTER DUN:clap:*


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

A couple of years ago I took on a second floor bathroom addition ,over an existing one story section of the house.
After agreeing on a price,I started to pull up the old floorboards in the attic section where the bath was to go.Finding that someone had removed a load bearing wall beneath this floor and hacked the floor joists with short scabs to try to carry the span.
So I immediately stopped the demo and contacted the HO.
I explain the situation to her and point out the various other factors that almost make this addition impossible to complete at a reasonable cost,suggesting she take another approach for her needs.
This was post and beam construction,which already had a 15% slant from it's 150 year life.Everything had to be reinforced and,because the joists ran opposite the rafters,bolted together so no further damage could occur.
She asks for a ball park figure.
Wow,she is really determined to get this project done,no matter the costs?
So,covering my azz,I throw out a high number,hoping to dissuade her from doing the project at all.
She says ok,do it.
I had faith in her ability to pay,as she was the President of a local college,single,no kids.So I get the new structural changes engineered,and continue the project to completion.
As we're doing the work,we start getting the old"while your here,can you" routine.
So we comply and give a little.Then after a few more "could you also" requests,I informed her that these changes will affect the price.She tells me not to worry,she will dip into her retirement account for the extra's.
Once everything is completed I present her with the final bill and she says it will take her a couple of days to get the balance.

She calls a few days later,and says we have to talk.Evidently she spoke with a carpenter friend of hers that wanted to look over the project.
Well,this friend who hasn't been in the business for 25 years,decides I.ve over charged her and we need to sit down and go over every detail,line by line.
I comply,knowing the time and material list will tell all,and he agrees to most of the charges.We butted heads a couple of times and came to an agreement.
Well,the HO stands up and says she's not paying a penny over the original contract.She claims I've taken advantage of her because she's a woman.
Now where the he** did that come from?

Now she wants to haggle price?

If you can't take the advice of your own friend lady there's another problem here. 
Well,filing a lien,court time ,lawyers fees,time out of work,start 
working themselves into the equation and we agree on midway price.

So now I always figure a little haggle room into the prices.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

How many times a week do you guys hear "I could/would do it myself but I just don't have the time".?:laughing: And then he stays the whole time and watches you work.:furious:


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

mahlere said:


> and in most states it's illegal for you to repossess it once you installed it.


Here in California anything installed in real property becomes the property of the owner, regardless if they paid for it or not.

But I figured a away around that... :whistling

Last year I installed a sub panel on a guest house, the owner got real cagey about paying, was always going to send the check that day. Eventually he said he wasn't going to pay because his brother (who ever he was) said my job was substandard.

So I went out there and ripped the panel out of the wall and cut all the conductors flush with the connectors. He was renting the unit out but the tenant was not home.

So this jerk calls me, all full of threats and bull****, he's so pissed he's stuttering. Right on schedule he informs me of the law regarding improvements to real property....

I reminded him about his low opinion of my work, I told him I investigated the work and I found it to be a fire hazard so I did the right thing and removed it. Then I followed up with my trademark saying "how do you like those apples, sweetie?" 

He was so angry he was at a loss for words. :clap:


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

*How many times a week do you guys hear "I could/would do it myself but I just don't have the time".?:laughing: And then he stays the whole time and watches you work.:furious:

*And the ones who ask what you'll charge if they help?

Double my original price, Sir!


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## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

Putty Truck said:


> That whole scenario would have set off alarms. HO bought from HO Depot would be the first clue. Anyone too cheap to buy my product isn't my type of customer, unless the product was some thousand dollar faucet.


So, let me get this straight. If I buy a $99 dollar faucet at HomeDepot and want you to install it, I'm considered not worthy because I either can't afford a $1000 faucet or I don't want to pay you $150 for the $99 dollar faucet. I just don't understand why some of you guys think everyone is rich. I certainly can understand the frustration of having to deal with a customer who thinks he's on a episode of let's make a deal, but honestly why is there often so much hostility towards people who can't just write a $600 check without blinking. Maybe they have to buy a cheap fixture, so they will have enough money left over to to pay for installation. My basic point is a lot of you guys that work for wealthy people all of the time get this attitude that normal HomeDepot like customers are just not worthy of your services. How many thousand dollars faucets are in your house? Not trying to start a fight, just a vent.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

there is nothing wrong with those customers, they just may not be his target customers. because he chooses to focus on customers who have more money than time doesn't make him wrong.


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## Herk (Aug 1, 2007)

Robertc65 said:


> If I buy a $99 dollar faucet at HomeDepot and want you to install it, I'm considered not worthy because I either can't afford a $1000 faucet or I don't want to pay you $150 for the $99 dollar faucet. I just don't understand why some of you guys think everyone is rich.


I used to feel that way, until Homey opened and my income began dropping like a stone. It doesn't matter if you are rich or not. What matters is what it costs me to work for you. But if I was doing your work, I don't care if you supply the faucet or not - my flat rate book covers customer supplied items. You don't save money, you do lose the time you spent getting the parts, and I won't guarantee what you supply.

And what happens when what you supply is defective or won't fit? Who stands the cost? Do you go back to Homey and get another part and hope it works this time, while paying for each time I come out?

Although all the plumbers in my area insist that they mark up whatever material the homeowner supplies, I've been there and done that and found the HO screaming that I can't mark up what they bought. But the markup on materials is part of what it costs me to operate. Period. So I simply price the job before I start in such a way that I make the same amount of money whether I supply it or you supply it, and it ends the haggling.


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## RopeaGoat (Sep 21, 2007)

I also have no problem with the HO buying their own fixtures but don't buy junk and call me back b/c it fails in a couple of months. If I install a $100 faucet and an internal o-ring or stem fails I'll swap out the entire faucet because that will take less time than tearing apart their Home Depot special and chasing down parts to fix it. Also, folks don't seem to haggle at the auto shop when a mechanic charges $75-$95 per hour and tie their car up for 5-6 hours. How am I any different? Folks will wait all day for the cable guy to service the Idiot Box and not bat an eye at what they are charged but I pull their toilet and fish out their lost doll or worse diamond ring in a house trap and I'm the robber for charging $100 per hour and there when I say I'll be. Point is if the HO is adding a bathroom or changing out fixtures they need to know what it's going to cost.


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

robertc65 said:


> So, let me get this straight. If I buy a $99 dollar faucet at HomeDepot and want you to install it, I'm considered not worthy because I either can't afford a $1000 faucet or I don't want to pay you $150 for the $99 dollar faucet. I just don't understand why some of you guys think everyone is rich. I certainly can understand the frustration of having to deal with a customer who thinks he's on a episode of let's make a deal, but honestly why is there often so much hostility towards people who can't just write a $600 check without blinking. Maybe they have to buy a cheap fixture, so they will have enough money left over to to pay for installation. My basic point is a lot of you guys that work for wealthy people all of the time get this attitude that normal HomeDepot like customers are just not worthy of your services. How many thousand dollars faucets are in your house? Not trying to start a fight, just a vent.


It has nothing to do with net worth of the customer. The single mom with 2 kids gets the same price as the retired gazillionaire. That is fair and right, everybody pays the same for the service but if I sometimes cut someone some slack in a particular situation then that is my choice but no one is entitled to it and I can tell you that the people who push for it or want to haggle do not receive it. 

I'd call it frustration rather than hostility. I honestly don't think I have ever installed a single HO provided fixture where the quality of the product was ever even a consideration. Every single time the choice is made either on price or looks. Consequently they are draging all this junk home from the box stores wanting you to install it for box store prices. You know it is junk you try to explain this to them but they want to ignore all of your knowledge and experience which is a big part of the service they are paying you for whether they like it or not. When they do this they want to reduce your labor to commodity status. Commodities are bought and sold on price and price alone. My company will not be reduced to this status. If HO has his own fixture fine we will install it but the product will be marked up our normal amount, and we will not warranty it at all. Basically you will pay the full price for that install minus our cost for that product or one of very similar type, style, and finish and you will have no warranty, plus rather than having it brought to them they had to go get it. 

Once again I am not in this so that I can live "paycheck to paycheck", my kids are going to go to college, I don't want to have to be slinging water heaters in the back of a truck when I am 60, my families health insurance comes in somewhere around $550 a month with a $3600 deductible, I'd like to take a vacation every year, we're going to need new cars from time to time (my wife drives a '99 Dodge Grand Caravan), braces, home maintenance/repair, life insurance, blah blah blah, so when I roll up into the average driveway around here I don't want to here any whining because I charge X so that I can provide the same things for my family that your family enjoys. 

Whew, ... ok ... I think ... I'm done now. Sorry for the rant.


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

Plumbing, as much as we depend upon it, is not an entitlement.

Ok, now I'm done.:whistling


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## Mr. D (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm guessing the h.o. watched last weeks nightly news story on how everybody should try to bargain for a lower deal. Just like when shopping for a car or stereo equipment.

I am just waiting for a new flood of those types of customers. Oh thanks news media.


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

smellslike$tome said:


> Plumbing, as much as we depend upon it, is not an entitlement.
> 
> Ok, now I'm done.:whistling


Plumbers are a luxury. Act and charge accordingly.


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## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

oldfrt said:


> A couple of years ago I took on a second floor bathroom addition ,over an existing one story section of the house.
> After agreeing on a price,I started to pull up the old floorboards in the attic section where the bath was to go.Finding that someone had removed a load bearing wall beneath this floor and hacked the floor joists with short scabs to try to carry the span.
> So I immediately stopped the demo and contacted the HO.
> I explain the situation to her and point out the various other factors that almost make this addition impossible to complete at a reasonable cost,suggesting she take another approach for her needs.
> ...


Yea, I can certainly understand the frustration of having to deal with people like this. They make it bad for the rest of us who are just trying to get by. The fact that She would even consider dipping into her retirement fund to pay for a home renovation project speaks volumes. I can't imagine doing such a thing and She is a College President :laughing:


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