# Be honest PEX pucker.



## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

I WISH THIS P.E.X. CRAP WOULD DISAPEAR! Honestly if it was the same cost as copper would you use it? Me, NO FREAkIN WAY! I'm sick of it! From now on I'm down selling the use of this crap to any customer. I think I'll do a parts cost comparison with GALVI to even upsale above copper. Let's get back to selling a quality product that you can stand back and look at and be proud to reflect back on the apprentice days of pain it took to learn how to work with these materials effectivley. :furious:


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

*put This In Your Crimper And Crap On It !*


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

Bro, I am sick of copper. The cost, the soldering, the flux...you name it. 

Besides, the ho can't buy pex parts or the pex tools, so that's a major plus.


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

All ZURN PEX fittings, pipe and tools sold at LOEWS here.


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

PARA1 said:


> I WISH THIS P.E.X. CRAP WOULD DISAPEAR! Honestly if it was the same cost as copper would you use it? Me, NO FREAkIN WAY! I'm sick of it! From now on I'm down selling the use of this crap to any customer. I think I'll do a parts cost comparison with GALVI to even upsale above copper. Let's get back to selling a quality product that you can stand back and look at and be proud to reflect back on the apprentice days of pain it took to learn how to work with these materials effectivley. :furious:


Why don't you tell us what you really think?

What exactly is it that you don't like about it?

Have you actually used it? What systems? What brands?

Have you had any material failures?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

As a remodeler, the ability for a plumber to snake Pex under a subfloor from one side of a room to the other like an electrician pulling wire, without having to pull up the whole floor or open the ceiling below is pretty hard to find something wrong with!


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

I just want to know HONESTLY, would you plumb your new home with it? A home you had to live in for the next 20 years.:no::no::no:


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

PARA1 said:


> I just want to know HONESTLY, would you plumb your new home with it? A home you had to live in for the next 20 years.:no::no::no:


No.


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

PARA1 said:


> I just want to know HONESTLY, would you plumb your new home with it? A home you had to live in for the next 20 years.:no::no::no:


I'm currently in the midst of a bathroom remodel in my house. All of the existing water distribution (copper) has been demoed and replaced with pex.


Again, what is it about pex that you object to?


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

I also recently installed a pot filler in my house using pex for the branch service terminating with a pex drop eared 90.


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

For repair in a tight spot --O.K. I just finished 2 different small new construction jobs with steel framing. Took me longer than copper, plus I dont like the way the stuff looks riding on top of my sweet new ride!:thumbsup: Another thing is the fact that the pipe fits over the fitting --WTF! , that's a inherent built in restriction with the product line itself.


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

PARA1 said:


> For repair in a tight spot --O.K. I just finished 2 different small new construction jobs with steel framing. Took me longer than copper, plus I dont like the way the stuff looks riding on top of my sweet new ride!:thumbsup: Another thing is the fact that the pipe fits over the fitting --WTF! , that's a inherent built in restriction with the product line itself.


Why would it take you longer than copper? If it was a manifold system of course that would take longer and much more pipe than a traditional branch system, and of course you would have to use insulators through any stud penetration with metal studs. But you would have to do that with copper too. On balance, even with a manifold type system, it should take you much less time to install than copper.

Can't help you with how it looks on your truck but that's really a personal issue and no reflection on the performance of the product.

Can you or your clients see any discernible fixture performance issues?

I install a good bit of this pipe and believe me I was leery at first. I'm not trying to convert you I just want to know specifically what you don't like about it whether it's performance issue or simply personal preference. If anyone has a legitimate problem with it I want to know so I know whether to re-evaluate my use of it or not. In my case, I had already installed literally miles of it while working for other employers with no known issues but ultimately my name was not on it. When I went into business I continued using it but did some more research. I currently hold it to be equal to and in many ways superior to copper. If you've got something legitimate let's hear it. If it's simply an opinion that's ok too I'd just like to know which one it is.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

PARA1 said:


> I just want to know HONESTLY, would you plumb your new home with it? A home you had to live in for the next 20 years.:no::no::no:



Yes :thumbsup:


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

It's personal, but I'm still following the class A lawsuit about fitting failure.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Thats only for fitting that had q-pex marked on them.


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

I use it. I use it all the time. I hate copper now. Don't get me wrong I still stock all copper fittings to 1 1/2 but my preference is PEX. And yes I would use it in my own home, it performs better. No more creeks and cracks as a hot water line tempers, AND there is less surface friction, which means the water can travel through the pipe at a faster speed. The ability to make 90 degree turns W/O fittings helps keep volume up, and I make good money on it. I have repiped about 20 or so houses in the past year and not one problem. No complaints of taste - no leaks - and if there are kids there I usually leave them a few feet of red and blue to beat the crap out of eachother!

I will say this, I don't really care for the crimper tool. It has screwed me on more than one occasion. I really wish they would re-design it for one handed use.
As far as the lawsuit goes, I used the fittings that they claim to be bad...and maybe they were but I have never had one issue . I heard it was only in a few states where these problem fittings were sold.

I love waiting at the counter in the supply house and listning to these old farts whine about it, and how it's just like poly pipe....Keep telling your customers how bad it is.....my bids with pex almost always net me the job. Price is king.....you can have your lawsuit, I'm making money.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

James...

Here is what we used to use, they are one handed

1/2" isn't bad, 3/4" get's tough after a while


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

I seem to remember seeing something like that, however I use the SS clamps. Thanks


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## RopeaGoat (Sep 21, 2007)

We've used Pex now for the past 4 years on all new res construction and have not had any functional problems... My dad's issue was asthetics. He hates the way it looked in the basement, especially the hot because it would "wrinkle" when it got hot. And we taloned it on every joist, etc. To get around this we did the last two houses with a combination of Flowgold for the mains and pex heading upstairs. The other thing dad doesn't like is red & blue so he and I just use the white. Also chose Wirsbro b/c the fittings are slightly larger and haven't had any issues with pressure.
Just a rookies $.02.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

I'd rather have pex, no question...Especially on a house with a water softener and a re-circ. 

I'm with Mike, too, on the remodel side. There are things you can do with pex that you can't do with any other piping. 

Most of the old school plumbers I know don't like it simply for the fact that it makes it easier for Joe-Shmoe Homeowner to work on. The same was said about the transition from cast iron to PVC...

Am I missing something or did you say you "upsell" to Galvi???


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

ChrWright said:


> Most of the old school plumbers I know don't like it simply for the fact that it makes it easier for Joe-Shmoe Homeowner to work on. ?


Dam those shark bite fittings, :wallbash: before them a ho would call a plumber, I still think most ho's will call a plumber before they attempt to deal with pex pipe.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

As a remodeler, it has been great to work with, no burnt framing to concern the homeowner, less repairs on remodeling jobs. Good pressure, faster completions. Half my house is galvanized(clean as a whistle after 50 years) and the rest is Pex). I would never use junk in a home like mine. I trust my plumber and I respect his knowledge and skill, he would never steer me wrong.
Been using it on my jobs for 3 years, no problems yet. When I redo my 2 bathrooms, they will all be Pex, unless something happens to convince me the go back to copper.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Homeowners have been F-ing up their own plumbing since Roman times, I'd imagine... Unfortunately, it usually ends up causing more of a problem for the next owner---or the next guy that has to work on/update it.

Most of the old houses I work on have been jacked with 4 or 5 times. If it's older than 60 years or so, you've got the history of plumbing--methods & materials--all spliced together hodge-podge & held together with little more than good intent, rusticles, and a few termites holding hands.

Ditto for the electrical system.


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

ChrWright said:


> I'd rather have pex, no question...Especially on a house with a water softener and a re-circ.
> 
> I'm with Mike, too, on the remodel side. There are things you can do with pex that you can't do with any other piping.
> 
> ...


OF COARSE I said GALVI it's the best water distribution pipe ever used.:thumbsup:


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Yeah, the rust stains really look great on everything... sinks, toilets, tile, laundry... Of course, you'll be gone by then right? 

I'm all about supporting the trades & using professionals, but that's a bit ridiculous. 

I'm curious, by what standard do you define it as the "best"???


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

ChrWright said:


> Homeowners have been F-ing up their own plumbing since Roman times, I'd imagine... Unfortunately, it usually ends up causing more of a problem for the next owner---or the next guy that has to work on/update it.
> 
> Most of the old houses I work on have been jacked with 4 or 5 times. If it's older than 60 years or so, you've got the history of plumbing--methods & materials--all spliced together hodge-podge & held together with little more than good intent, rusticles, and a few termites holding hands.
> 
> Ditto for the electrical system.


:laughing: Ain't that the truth!

Many a ho isn't afraid to work with copper or plastic, either. These aren't our customers...never have been and never will be.

I have a uncle in deep GA who has owned a gas station/garage for 60 years. He still complains that there is a engine lift in every yard, but his bays are always full. Shoot, most people won't change their own oil, much less their water heater.

I am going to use Pex on my next house. Copper sucks like a carpenter in a supply house.


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## CPlumb (Jan 17, 2008)

I 've read this post and am wondering why the CPVC or PEX conversation hasn't come up ? 

I personally have never used pex ,,, not opposed to it ,, just have not really looked into it .

Been plumbing several decades and was brought up on copper just like most of you fellas . Have been using A LOT of CPVC and am very happy with it !

Would you guys be happy with CPVC as opposed to copper ?

New Guy

CPlumb


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

CPlumb said:


> I 've read this post and am wondering why the CPVC or PEX conversation hasn't come up ?
> 
> I personally have never used pex ,,, not opposed to it ,, just have not really looked into it .
> 
> ...


IMO cpvc sucks it's brittle or can get that way, I'd trust a crimp over glue joints any day, it can't bend as tight as pex, causing you to use excessive fitting.


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

ChrWright said:


> Yeah, the rust stains really look great on everything... sinks, toilets, tile, laundry... Of course, you'll be gone by then right?
> 
> I'm all about supporting the trades & using professionals, but that's a bit ridiculous.
> 
> I'm curious, by what standard do you define it as the "best"???


Return on investment, 50 60 70 years in sevice with no problems (what a bargain!). Better yet, it was probably installed by a licensed apprentice being supervised by a journeyman plumber (great for the trade, future home owner and economy as a whole.) NO WAY IN HELL these PEX systems will last that long. Have you seen a house plumbed with the MANIBLOCK system? WHAT A FREEKIN JOKE!:whistling


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## CPlumb (Jan 17, 2008)

Yes I have heard this about cpvc , however it has not been my experience. Gone back on jobs that have been cpvc for 20 years and have cut new tees ,etc into it ,,,, no problem . For now , unless it's a large remodel ,,, think I'll stay with copper instead of buying new tools .

Just an opinion
C


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

CPlumb said:


> Would you guys be happy with CPVC as opposed to copper?


I'm happy to replace both of 'em. I personnaly don't like the idea of glue (or flux) joints and potable water, so I would turn down any job that required it.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

PARA1 said:


> Have you seen a house plumbed with the MANIBLOCK system? WHAT A FREEKIN JOKE!:whistling


That's a waste of time and money, I don't install them and won't, plumb them just like you would do in copper, size and branch off as you move along.

Careful, as you know copper is high priced, you could lose your skirt over the ones that will beat your price using pex.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

PARA1 said:


> ... 50 60 70 years in sevice with no problems...


 
You obviously don't do much service work.


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## AJX4 (Jan 17, 2008)

ChrWright said:


> You obviously don't do much service work.


I do, and I know of quite a few homes that are 65 years old with vertical runs of galvanized that don't show any age whatsoever. I'm not talking about looks, I'm talking about cross-sectional cuts for removal or repair where using a threading tool to reconnect with and getting a good thread score. Galvanized was notorious for failure mostly on horizontal runs along with the last 3 turns of direction into the fixture it supplied. Pex doesn't offer the reputation of longevity on any standard in the united states including but not limited to the definite waiting period of how and when chlorine slowly breaks down this product. No one knows yet. Funny there's not one Las Vegas plumber on here yet that got ass-smashed by Kitec piping. Those guys were singing the same song and dance until the lawyers gave new meaning to brokeback mountain in the realm of product liability. There's some of us on an elite mindset that you don't trust product unless it's served its tour of duty so to speak to know how this product operates under a zillion conditions. There are so many different brands of this product that how someone knows which is which is going to take time to learn by what hardships the product brings.
Just reading on this thread that someone other than a licensed plumber is installing this product is the #1 true downfall of what plumbing has become. It's not secured to the men and women that spend years in the trade under governing bodies learning a profession which entitles continuing education and proper licensing. You got idiot joe being hack wannabe plumber because the big box hands out crimpers and rolled piping to buy, some quick put together fittings. This all works to the favor of those who know true plumbing skills because this spaghetti that minimizes your intellect brings forth guys like me that has to work with the older products to make a repair or install a new connection. You can't use a crimper in some locations whereby you're either expanding your work to use it or you're resorting back to square one. The next generation of plumbers are going to be stepping back behind the present generation because they don't have the gumption to know beyond their nose of fast and easy. Count me out of your little pow wow of pex users.


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

AJX4 said:


> I do, and I know of quite a few homes that are 65 years old with vertical runs of galvanized that don't show any age whatsoever. I'm not talking about looks, I'm talking about cross-sectional cuts for removal or repair where using a threading tool to reconnect with and getting a good thread score. Galvanized was notorious for failure mostly on horizontal runs along with the last 3 turns of direction into the fixture it supplied. Pex doesn't offer the reputation of longevity on any standard in the united states including but not limited to the definite waiting period of how and when chlorine slowly breaks down this product. No one knows yet. Funny there's not one Las Vegas plumber on here yet that got ass-smashed by Kitec piping. Those guys were singing the same song and dance until the lawyers gave new meaning to brokeback mountain in the realm of product liability. There's some of us on an elite mindset that you don't trust product unless it's served its tour of duty so to speak to know how this product operates under a zillion conditions. There are so many different brands of this product that how someone knows which is which is going to take time to learn by what hardships the product brings.
> Just reading on this thread that someone other than a licensed plumber is installing this product is the #1 true downfall of what plumbing has become. It's not secured to the men and women that spend years in the trade under governing bodies learning a profession which entitles continuing education and proper licensing. You got idiot joe being hack wannabe plumber because the big box hands out crimpers and rolled piping to buy, some quick put together fittings. This all works to the favor of those who know true plumbing skills because this spaghetti that minimizes your intellect brings forth guys like me that has to work with the older products to make a repair or install a new connection. You can't use a crimper in some locations whereby you're either expanding your work to use it or you're resorting back to square one. The next generation of plumbers are going to be stepping back behind the present generation because they don't have the gumption to know beyond their nose of fast and easy. Count me out of your little pow wow of pex users.


OK.


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

I thought he was very well spoken. A bit bitter to evolution but very well spoken.


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

Buy a cap for your truck, put the pex inside and solder some Cu to the racks for 'esthetics'. 

They've been using this stuff in Europe for thirty years, do you think plumbing works differently there?

This is the same old argument that happened when plywood was introduced as sheathing for construction, most of the old timers went to their graves swearing that in 'twenty years they'll find out this stuff doesn't work'. People are saying the same thing about OSB now, some guys swear by 'the old way is always the best', it isn't: (Think lead paint, think asbestos.) When new technologies are introduced there is always a settling down period, so it's wise to be careful, but, jeez, this stuff has been around for a while.

It's kind of ironic that we can use the internet to instantly disseminate our poor opinions of modern technological improvements. There actually are better mousetraps.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

AJX4 said:


> I do, and I know of quite a few homes that are 65 years old with vertical runs of galvanized that don't show any age whatsoever...


 
So I guess if you could plumb the whole house vertically, your argument might make sense...


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

reveivl said:


> Buy a cap for your truck, put the pex inside and solder some Cu to the racks for 'esthetics'.
> 
> They've been using this stuff in Europe for thirty years, do you think plumbing works differently there?
> 
> ...


Speaking of the internet, I'm sure it's just a fad and will soon go away like the PEX tube.:w00t:


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

Ok, I'll add my .02 now.

Steel pipe - I have recently serviced some steel dist. pipe that has endured over 90 years,a real credit to the manufacturers [US steel mills],and the installers.

I love metal pipe ,what can I say,but for larger jobs where bidding is tight,you'll use some form of plastic or lose the bid.That said for strictly residential work.

Lets face it,it's a plastics world out there.I would say none of them have endured long enough [for water supply] for any one product to be proven as the best.They all have their own unique installation requirements and their own shortcomings.I haven't seen any plastic plumbing systems older than 10 or 20 years ,for distribution,not service,so I don't trust the projected rating of 100 years.But even if I use plastics in the first and second rough-ins,I always stub-out or attach to the fixture in ridgid pipe.I feel water quality has a big role in choosing the type of piping material as well.The big plus for pex systems is the flow-rate and less friction which makes up for what I feel is somewhat restricted fittings.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

AJX4 said:


> Don't forget that I'm coming with a sawsall to cut it all out and scrap it too.


That was the first thing I thought of too.


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## AJX4 (Jan 17, 2008)

threaderman said:


> This thread has become useless,what a shame.


 
Awe comon. You sound like somebody that had PB in their home or Blue Max for a water service or Kitec piping in your home, heck throw a couple Zurn brass fittings that snap in the middle of the night, all of which caused you thousands of dollars, destroyed your personal posessions and caused you stress or cost you undo financial strain to you and your family. It is a shame.


Killer, check out my porta-potty response, I'm the talent that made safety a rule.


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## 3Kings Plumbing (Jan 2, 2008)

*Maniblock*

I hate installing these but it's what alot of Custom Builders are using here in Indiana. The company I just quit installed these all the time for the 4 builders they had. Looks good if installed right. For instance, After 4 baths spose to use 1" feed lines but the company I worked at was cheap and used 3/4 I hope this doesn't bit them in the . But again I don't work for them anymore!

I did this one 2 houses before I quit. Took pictures for I can show protential customer of my craftmanship.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Perhaps I'm way to old school, but that looks like garden hose to me.


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

3Kings Plumbing said:


> I hate installing these but it's what alot of Custom Builders are using here in Indiana. The company I just quit installed these all the time for the 4 builders they had. Looks good if installed right. For instance, After 4 baths spose to use 1" feed lines but the company I worked at was cheap and used 3/4 I hope this doesn't bit them in the . But again I don't work for them anymore!
> 
> I did this one 2 houses before I quit. Took pictures for I can show protential customer of my craftmanship.


hEY! THE COLD IS ON THE WRONG SIDE.:w00t:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Noooo!
You're looking at it from the back!
:laughing::clap::laughing:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

3Kings, nice looking work, I hate it, hate when after the shower, I run the hot water for another 3 minutes to get it so I can shave in the sink.

How many times in any plumbers career has being able to go to the manifold and shut down one fixture been the be all to end all of plumbing? Has anyone ever said to the customer...thank God you had a manifold. No, if you need to shut the water off to repair or replace something, you do it, tell the people not to flush the toilet, water will be back on in XXX minutes/hours.

Nice marketing tool though


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Chris Johnson said:


> 3Kings, nice looking work, I hate it, hate when after the shower, I run the hot water for another 3 minutes to get it so I can shave in the sink.
> 
> How many times in any plumbers career has being able to go to the manifold and shut down one fixture been the be all to end all of plumbing? Has anyone ever said to the customer...thank God you had a manifold. No, if you need to shut the water off to repair or replace something, you do it, tell the people not to flush the toilet, water will be back on in XXX minutes/hours.
> 
> Nice marketing tool though


Well, it might not be nice for you as a plumber, but for the homeowner, think of it this way. 

Car is all packed, dog staying with friends, kids at grandma's house, and you have a wonderful weekend get away all planned. Just waiting for your better half to get out of the shower and dressed, then its off for dinner and a weekend of romance.

But wait, wife is yelling at you. You snap out of your torrid day dream in time to hear the wife saying something about the hot water not shutting off in the master bath.

Well, if you have a plumbing system plumbed on a home run, you can just turn off that valve and leave the house, knowing you can call a plumber Monday. If not, its time to start wishing you had while you start looking for a plumber that can make it out and quickly.

Ya, you could turn the water off to the house, but don't forget to turn off the water heater as well. But, the typical homeowner doesn't have a clue how to shut the water off to a home, let alone know how to shut down a water heater.


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

"reveivl, look what I found on the internet; somebody having problems with wet particle board. ya know glued wood Could it be? Prepares to laugh really hard"

Do you understand the difference between OSB, particle board, mdf, plywood...? There are big differences between these products, but there are also similarities: they are ALL glued wood. (Chances are that your furniture is glued together, too).


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

AJX4 said:


> Ahh but it felt so good and was right on target. Nothing better than taking the bait and jerking the pole across the boat lodging the hook in someones ear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did know it but what I didn't know was that it would be noticeable almost immediately

The customer was me. It was my house. Read the post. That one "crucial connection" was a single 2" galvanized nipple, imagine an entire house plumbed with your wonderful, takes a gazillion years to finally rust through the outer wall, galvanized pipe.

:w00t::laughingat you) Ridiculous! Don't you know "Rust Never Sleeps".
??? I would correct you if you needed it and if I had ANY IDEA WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT!

That's a pretty cool trick! How long did it take you to learn how to expose the truth of what is in a person's heart and mind with nothing more than a 100 words or so posted on an internet forum! The user name has nothing to do with greed. It's simply a mildly humorous statement that when I crack open someone's dwv system for whatever reason that the odor that is present, ranging anywhere from what you might encounter in your family room 30 minutes or so after supper all the way to the eye watering, choking back the vomit type odors, is simply part of the line of work I have chosen. It's a way of looking at the bright side of one of the unpleasant aspects of this trade. I do what people are either unable or unwilling to do. I expose myself to unpleasantness, disease, injury, etc. every day. I am well paid for what I do as I should be but my user name has nothing to do with greed nor do my business practices. All it means is that I will put up with your stink and your filth because it is how I earn my living. The consumer however ought not imagine that what I do for them will come cheaply.


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## CPlumb (Jan 17, 2008)

Yes the manifold system is ok IF it's copper . All the PB manifolds I've worked on have problems with the joint connections at the manifold and valves . Is the Pex any different ? Sure does not look like it .
As Plumber , we all know that an old cut off valve under a sink can cause more pain / time then we really need to spend . If we are servicing a faucet / WC or something ,,,, just turn the main off ,tell the customer it will be off for a little while and GET ON WITH IT ! 

I tell all my customers , " If you are leaving the house for the weekend or more ,,, just shut the main off . Then if there is a problem it's just the water that are in the lines ,,,, NOT under continued pressure " . That's usually when they pay me for a new main cut off BALL VALVE type and PRV ( $ 350)

I LOVE cpvc . But let's be honest ,, COPPER is GREAT ! Sure it gets pinholes sometimes , yes it has gotten expensive , yes it is much more time consuming . But if you've been in the trade 15+ years it is what we know and what we do ! Homeowners can't do it . Un trained "craftsmen" can't do it . Guess we'll just have to wait and see if these new ways can make it .

If it's the "Wave " then I'll be happy to sit on the shore and just enjoy the day . No thanks to Pex.

CP


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

Hey, do you plumbers mark your pex manifold boxes as well as the electricians mark their breaker boxes? NOT!

Nice work *3Kings.

Steve
*


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

At some point I've heard nearly every
plumber, sewer & septic guy, and yes
even the poor honey dippers say....
"Smells like money to me!"
First thing I thought when I saw 
that handle and smiled--"Sounds like 
a plumber to me."
Wonder who's been around this business
for more than a minute and doesn't get this?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Double-A said:


> Well, it might not be nice for you as a plumber, but for the homeowner, think of it this way.
> 
> Car is all packed, dog staying with friends, kids at grandma's house, and you have a wonderful weekend get away all planned. Just waiting for your better half to get out of the shower and dressed, then its off for dinner and a weekend of romance.
> 
> ...


 
Understandable, that is the theory behind the manifold...how often do you think reality happens this way? Everyone should know where the water shut off is, if they don't, they do when the leak happens at some point.


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## [email protected] (Jan 25, 2008)

I love pex plus it doesn't sweat in the summer


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## kyle181 (Oct 6, 2007)

personally i use quest poly pipe with hose clamps and it has been working great for me for years.... its just hard to find a supply house that stocks alot of it


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## 3Kings Plumbing (Jan 2, 2008)

*maniblock*

Had to switch the cold and hot around for the hot block would be with in 8ft from the water heater. maniblocks come with pretyped labels to put on, and also has some blank one for you can write jack-n-jill bath.

I'm not promoting these blocks!!!! I came from a company that installed them all the time!

I like to do conventional plumbing. I like using copper but the cost for an 1/2 10' m copper is like $10.00 for the same amount of pex is less than 1/2 of that. I always ask my customer if they want pex or copper. Never use cpvc I think it can get brittle sometimes. For instance went to change out a water heater in a garage, Was hooked up with cpvc went to use my cpvc cutters on it and snap. Cracked the pipe so I used a hacksaw to cut it lower do to fear of cracking it worst. 

Before you know it all pipeing will be clear like glass. Heck I have seen clear (see through) Check valves on a ejector pit. It was a cool thought but not a pretty sight to look at.:blink:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

3Kings Plumbing said:


> Heck I have seen clear (see through) Check valves on a ejector pit. It was a cool thought but not a pretty sight to look at.:blink:


Sounds like *hours of fun* for the kiddies! :clap::laughing:


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

3Kings Plumbing said:


> Before you know it all pipeing will be clear like glass. Heck I have seen clear (see through) Check valves on a ejector pit. It was a cool thought but not a pretty sight to look at.:blink:


I've installed a lot of glass pipe, at least nowadays you don't have to use a flame to form a lip in the end of the pipe, the couplings work on the plain end instead.


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## AJX4 (Jan 17, 2008)

reveivl said:


> " Do you understand the difference between OSB, particle board, mdf, plywood...?


 
You're kidding me; I thought plywood was just wide trees shaved down on the sides, shucks. Of course I know that but one of those products are superior in quality, used in applications that the consumer wants best product. My furniture is cardboard until it rains, the grocery store is my taj ma hal of fine living arrangements. 



smellslike$tome said:


> Dude! You're killing  me with color! .


I understand rust never sleeps but when I install a water heater with dielectric unions that are galvanized *unfortunately* and they call back within a few days stating when they open any of their hot faucets and a slight rusty colored water comes out I say HOLD ON CHESTER it's going to be a few weeks but it will slowly stop, give it time and sure enough it does just that. Now given a tub spout nipple that can be a different situation since it's point of use and doesn't have the ability to dilute before it reaches it point of exit from the system. Brass is king in plumbing as it has a proven track record but its expensive. Some mild corrosion in fittings, similar to galvanized on the last few turns into a fixture but nothing as severe as what galvanized can create. On horizontals you can't see from one end of the pipe to the other and the weak spots are the threads where it thinned the product. I knew you'd take offense to my statement regarding username but it's all true that it is money to the game of plumbing. Knowing this factoid though gives understanding to the customer that when we brag of this, it forces a thinking to maybe look for another plumber. Same reason they don't have ads in the yellow pages stating *We make a killing with our billing* *Better pay us in cash since were making a gash* *Joe's Plumbing, Bringing you a second mortgage free with every call!*





Double-A said:


> Well, if you have a plumbing system plumbed on a home run, you can just turn off that valve and leave the house, knowing you can call a plumber Monday. If not, its time to start wishing you had while you start looking for a plumber that can make it out and quickly.
> 
> Ya, you could turn the water off to the house, but don't forget to turn off the water heater as well. But, the typical homeowner doesn't have a clue how to shut the water off to a home, let alone know how to shut down a water heater.


 
In your state, is there a code requirement for isolation valves at the fixtures with the exception of tub and showers, sitting tubs or jetted? I do know that this isn't enforced in all states. Here's where the same logic with a manifold system can produce error on the homeowner's end. A fixture is leaking or broken, water shooting everywhere. Customer now has to go away from the fixture and look at a board of pipes entering a manifold and hopefully the installer marked the panel system. You know as well as I do how often this isn't done on electrical panels and not only is it dangerous on the electrical side, it can shut down other circuits thinking you've got the green light to proceed. Back to water. At my supply houses all these manifolds are nothing but plastic, including the valves inside that manifold. The keys that are used to turn those valves attach to a very small slotted stub that is plastic. Fast forward 12 years and you're at work, wifey is home cooking ziti on the stove with 3 kids chasing the dog's tail till little timmy face plants a wall in the house. Bloody nose and motherly nature kicks in and instantly to the bathroom she goes for warm wet rag to take care of the nose. Faucet breaks like a c.ialis commercial because someone wants to emphasize water squirting in the air like the experience you're going to get if you take this little pill in a field sitting in separate tubs. Follow me? lol Wife calls hubby, hubby says go to far corner of the house where this panel with colored garden hoses are attached to and there's valve to stop the madness. That manifold is 12 years so no matter if it's on the hot or cold side that plastic is slowly hardening like my arteries to my heart like a trip to white castle's always provides. Valves starting from the best made brass down the el cheapo insignifico plastic will not open or shut, seal off on a positive note when you go to turn them off for the first time in years. If your area has a history of hard water or calcium buildup then you know you're in for a surprise when you turn that tabbed plastic valve on that manifold that you probably can't replace just one like a breaker, it's all coming out because the product maker made sure you have to buy bigger and better and new and improved, part of a whole healthy business diet to get more money and quit selling the old when it fails. I'm dramatic with my jibbly-goo on the internet but I've been plumbing too long to not understand how often plastic components fail in plumbing. Plastic is awesome in the beginning, everything shuts off and moves like it's working on greased roller bearings. Add years of non-use along with corrosion, scale and buildup and those valves instantly snap off. Somebody tell me the makers of Pex thought outside the box and made a manifold with true quality brass valves. It's probably out there but everything I've seen looks like trouble for future service plumbers when it breaks. If anyone dares to mention copper manifolds with brass valves, wasn't the reason switching to pex good enough to get away from those? No? Hello? 

Paul Harvey


Good Day!


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

PARA1 said:


> I just want to know HONESTLY, would you plumb your new home with it? A home you had to live in for the next 20 years.:no::no::no:


I did!!! I started using it in 1995. Never had a prob with it. It's all we use on our kitchen bath remods. I'm actually shocked and bewildered there is anyone these days still using copper.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Brock said:


> I'm actually shocked and bewildered there is anyone these days still using copper.


Really?

So the fire at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas in the nineties taught you nothing? That fire went through the roof in a half hour because the PVC plumbing stacks started burning. You can't use plastic in a high rise in Las Vegas anymore. I don't know of any state that allows plastic plumbing in a high rise structure.


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

Comparing Mech. systems on a hi-rise to a Res. home is a joke


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Driftwood said:


> Comparing Mech. systems on a hi-rise to a Res. home is a joke


Why?


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

Well ,I've got 46 years experience working on both. Huge amounts of money
for large commercial buildings. A main breaker can be $10,000 ! At one time I was a certified welder as a pile buck. The foundations in The Bay area ,on these buildings, blows ones mind. What is put in Res. housing compared to large Comm. buildings ,is like comparing a piper cub to a Nasa rocket.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Driftwood said:


> Well ,I've got 46 years experience working on both. Huge amounts of money
> for large commercial buildings. A main breaker can be $10,000 ! At one time I was a certified welder as a pile buck. The foundations in The Bay area ,on these buildings, blows ones mind. What is put in Res. housing compared to large Comm. buildings ,is like comparing a piper cub to a Nasa rocket.


Now that we have the opinion of a GC that is not a licensed plumber, I still ask what the hell is the point of that post? Plumbing is delivering potable water, and taking waste away safely, it doesn't change because of the size of the building.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> Really?
> 
> So the fire at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas in the nineties taught you nothing? That fire went through the roof in a half hour because the PVC plumbing stacks started burning. You can't use plastic in a high rise in Las Vegas anymore. I don't know of any state that allows plastic plumbing in a high rise structure.


Ya ya ya... there are 1500 reasons why that fire spread. Most of them had to do with improper fire stopping methods and materials. PVC will not propagate a flame, ABS will. I have no idea about pex, but none of them will be the cause of fire moving through a partition in less than a predictable amount of time if the partition is properly fire stopped.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

AJX, nice (long) post there. I did say master bath tub.

Now, quit trolling up the area and start having a conversation instead of preaching the ills of pex. 

Its here to stay and you have a choice, use it or not. That's simple enough for even a plumber like me to understand. 

I don't prefer it, but I do respect it as an alternative for whatever reason my client chooses it over copper.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Double-A said:


> Ya ya ya... there are 1500 reasons why that fire spread. Most of them had to do with improper fire stopping methods and materials. PVC will not propagate a flame, ABS will. I have no idea about pex, but none of them will be the cause of fire moving through a partition in less than a predictable amount of time if the partition is properly fire stopped.


Any petroleum based product will burn, firestop or not, PVC is made from petroleum waste product, it burns damn well.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

http://www.vec.gr.jp/english/library/fire/1.html


I'm all for spirited discussion...But it becomes worthless when things disolve into personal attacks and anecdotal or inaccurate facts. 

This thread has ceased to be productive.


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## 3Kings Plumbing (Jan 2, 2008)

*I agree*

ChWright is right this is getting way out of control. And like Double A said you have a choice to use it or not. Can't we all be professional here and respect others choices. Everyone has a opinion. Heck today I seen a dodge truck diesel with the stacks coming out through the bed. I said, That looks retarted like that how you spose to haul anything with that 6-8" pipe coming up in the bed? My wife said he thinks it cool, and that what counts. :notworthy


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

This area would improve ,if some of the $$ip dsturbers would take a hike!

It's there sole purpose to to Dis. Funny they'd never have the gravel to go there face to face. Other plumbing forums wouldn't have these sad sacks.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Driftwood said:


> This area would improve ,if some of the $$ip dsturbers would take a hike!
> 
> It's there sole purpose to to Dis. Funny they'd never have the gravel to go there face to face. Other plumbing forums wouldn't have these sad sacks.


Hell yeah, let this part of the forums be dominated by those that are not licensed plumbers, yet do that work.


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## Herk (Aug 1, 2007)

I replaced all the water lines in my house around 1992. I used Vanguard polybutylene. I used a Vanguard manablock. To date, I have had no issues or problems. Prior to that, I had copper in the house, problems keeping it warm enough, and got tired of coming home to a livingroom with six inches of water in it.

About a year ago, I remodeled a bathroom. I took out the tub because I really didn't need one on that floor. So, what did I do with the waterlines? I turned them off at the manablock. There are extra ports in case I ever need to add any other plumbing. If I some day decide I want the bathroom back, I turn on the manablock valve. Since polybutylene pipe is no longer available, I would, of course, use PEX.

Last week, I got a call from the daughter of someone whose house I plumbed in copper thirty years ago. The contractor insisted that I plumb it in the ceiling rather than through the slab. Over thirty years, the insulation in the attic had settled until it barely covered the pipe. Mom and dad went on a cruise, turned down the heat, and you can probably guess what I found. Had the house been plumbed in polybutylene or PEX it is doubtful there would have been any damage. Needless to say, there was a lot.

I believe I've already mentioned on other threads and other forums that I've been having a spate of copper repairs - under slabs, in crawl spaces - on recirculating lines. All of them are from pinholes. All of them were installed in the last 30 years, some within the last six or so years, and they met code requirements. Although I've plumbed hundreds of houses with copper pipe, I have to say that I don't want something I've installed to develop pinholes soon after I install it. 

On to galvanized:

There are all flavors of galvanized pipe. I've seen some that looked very good after about thirty years of service, but mostly, I see a lot of nasty crud. Having to simply replace a main valve usually means tearing apart tub or shower valves to flush them, pulling off aerators, and disassembling kitchen faucets to clear them. And when the imported pipe became a threat to the steel companies, they began producing a lesser grade of pipe. In other words, you can't get there from here. If you install galvanized pipe underground, You're not likely to get even six years' worth of service from it. 

In addition, galvanized requires a lot of backbreaking labor, is very difficult to route in some places, and cannot be used beneath a slab. Back in the "old" days, the floor joists were usually notched and the pipes laid in before the flooring was put on. Now, how easy is that to repair? When you cut a galvanized thread and put a fitting on it, the pipe is only about 1/2 the thickness at the joint as the rest of the pipe. It's great for clothes hangers in the laundry room, but I would personally choose just about any other type of pipe over galvanized.

CPVC: I've had to repair this stuff in trailers and it is my opinion that glued joints are not the way to go. Nor is it a good idea to install brittle pipe in a freezing climate. I don't like having to buy a fresh can of glue and primer every time I make a repair because the one I used last isn't trustworthy once it's opened.

Polybutylene: Tragic. Anywhere antibacterial chemicals are used regularly in the water, the pipe will disintegrate. Had the fittings been all copper and brass instead of plastic, they might not have busted all over the place, and had all copper crimp rings been used instead of aluminum dog-ears, those wouldn't be failing, either. Ah, well. I'm glad that I didn't use those things in the houses I plumbed with it, and I'm glad that the water here isn't as nasty as what people put up with elsewhere.

PEX: This is good stuff. Now that there are a number of contenders for its manufacture, there are bound to be some failures as companies try to find the lowest common denominator. Not having learned from the PB debacle, they often try to cheapen things or to produce them before sufficient testing is done under adverse conditions.

You can beat on it with a hammer with little appreciable damage. You can freeze the water in it with little or no damage. You can kink it and heat it back into shape with little or no damage. The weak link is the fittings, and obviously, some are better than others. I have yet to see a crimped PEX fitting leak. I doubt even the most talented plumber on this board can say that about copper, galvanized, CPVC, or PVC. 

I've been installing poly water service for over 30 years. I have never, not once, gone back on a line that had 200 PSI water service pipe installed. Oh, I'm sure that some of the galvanized fittings that were often used have failed at some point, but it must be rare because I would have seen it by now, whether on a line I've done or a line someone else has done.

No, you can't thaw it with a welder. And I haven't burned down any houses that I haven't thawed with a welder.

Some may think that PEX pipe just isn't pretty. But then, there are those who think that galvanized pipe isn't pretty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Just knowing that cross-linked polyethelyne is a stable compound and is impervious to rust, corrosion, scaling, and freezing sounds beautiful to me.

One of the sad things, to me, is that polybutylene pipe was made from a waste gas, butyne 1, and now that gas is once again being burned off into the atmosphere at refineries, damaging the environment rather than being utilized. It's not a perfect world. But once in a while, things seem kind of perfect . . .


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Pin hole leaks are becomming more prevalent in my area as well. I wonder if this is a pipe issue, or guys not being diligent about reaming their cuts.


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

Chris Johnson said:


> 3Kings, nice looking work, I hate it, hate when after the shower, I run the hot water for another 3 minutes to get it so I can shave in the sink.
> 
> How many times in any plumbers career has being able to go to the manifold and shut down one fixture been the be all to end all of plumbing? Has anyone ever said to the customer...thank God you had a manifold. No, if you need to shut the water off to repair or replace something, you do it, tell the people not to flush the toilet, water will be back on in XXX minutes/hours.
> 
> Nice marketing tool though


You obviously have never had to locate or repair a slab leak. Everytime I do I say "I wish there was a valved manifold to make it easier to find this line".:whistling


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> Any petroleum based product will burn, firestop or not, PVC is made from petroleum waste product, it burns damn well.


Yes, but it will not sustain a flame. If you light it, it won't continue to burn on its own. It will go out. 

But, if you have a sustained source of flame on it, you're absolutely right, it will burn quite well.

Fire stopping caulks are designed to expand in the heat and seal off the pipe penetration. They work quite well, but they must be installed correctly as part of a fire stopping system.

But, having said that, I'd prefer to stay in or live in a high rise with all cast iron drains.


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> Really?
> 
> So the fire at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas in the nineties taught you nothing? That fire went through the roof in a half hour because the PVC plumbing stacks started burning. You can't use plastic in a high rise in Las Vegas anymore. I don't know of any state that allows plastic plumbing in a high rise structure.


Idiot!!! The art, fabric on the walls,etc and everything else had hardcore adhesives. This is what made that fire rage. Not a couple melting sewer pipes!!!!!! It started from faulty wiring in a pastry refrigerator and the adhesives in the casino area were more flammable than gasoline. You can google this easy. You will easily find over a thousand articles that give this as the cause. Everything in casino const. as a result is fire rated...yes even the furniture.

I love the way people just make stuff up. 

My advice....do a search before you speak


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

Well said Brock! Remember "the truth ,is inflamitary,to fools." And coming from a mere carpenter ,I'm guessing. The New handle fits nicely. Come to Ca. My Gen. cont. license allows ME to pull plumbing and other permits. Got tired of hack plumbers on My remodels. They all moved out to Illinois. See Ya


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