# charging by the hour?



## outsidethelines (Oct 19, 2007)

I know everyone hates the "how much should I charge" questions, and I guess in a way it does seem lazy, but sometimes I just need a quick answer because I don't have time to "work it out." I have to get a change order in fast and I am thinking of charging an hourly rate (which I have never done before). 

What would a painting contractor charge for change order work in the SF Bay Area as an hourly rate? I would like to charge $50.00 an hour. But, from their end that might seem a bit excessive.


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## PlainPainter (Dec 29, 2004)

Why would it seem excessive from their end? Have they ever owned and operated a painting contracting company and know the costs involved? $50/hr is pretty close to bottom of the barrel hourly pricing for a legit painting firm in high priced areas.


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## outsidethelines (Oct 19, 2007)

PlainPainterWhy would it seem excessive from their end? Have they ever owned and operated a painting contracting company and know the costs involved? $50/hr is pretty close to bottom of the barrel hourly pricing for a legit painting firm in high priced areas.




Hmmmmm......bottom of the barrel?


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

outsidethelines said:


> PlainPainterWhy would it seem excessive from their end? Have they ever owned and operated a painting contracting company and know the costs involved? $50/hr is pretty close to bottom of the barrel hourly pricing for a legit painting firm in high priced areas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. You could probably charge $65 and if the customer has had any work done recently, or if it is a GC, they probably won't blink.


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

Apparently, if you were an electrician, or maybe a neuro-surgeon, you could slap em with a bill for $400/hr. because electricians and brain surgeons are gods among men.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Wrong answers, again!
Spend some time with a calculator 
and find out what *your* hourly rate has to be.

A one man operation charging $60.00 will not make as much money 
as a well run larger company charging $45.00.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

send_it_all said:


> Apparently, if you were an electrician, or maybe a neuro-surgeon, you could slap em with a bill for $400/hr. because electricians and brain surgeons are gods among men.


Neuro-surgery Plus Inc with one surgeon at $400 per hour 
will not necessarily have as much income as the Wet Brush Company
charging $50.00 with 30 painters.


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

George Z said:


> Wrong answers, again!
> Spend some time with a calculator
> and find out what *your* hourly rate has to be.
> 
> ...


Get over yourself. What you seem to be telling him is to add up his expenses and charge the minimum amount he needs. Sounds to me like he NEEDS less than $50/hr. What we are telling him is that we believe that based on the market here in our state, that he could very likely charge more than that. How is that a wrong answer.


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## PlainPainter (Dec 29, 2004)

George - not everyone wants to run a 30-man company. And I believe business models have to be radically different. At best you can only
get B work with large type crews - not the single master/painter. If making money was as simple as getting more guys - everybody would be doing it.
I've made 3 attempts at it - so far has been failures - not saying you can't do it - but it's not easy, and now you have to go after tons of work - I can't find enough work, even with advertizing to keep myself busy. And not to mention - how does having multiple crews benefit you for a 1 bedroom repaint? you can't fit 30 guys in a single bedroom. Certain jobs don't warrant more than one worker, and what you save by paying a worker a lower rate, you lose by employing a full-time salesman running around, making sure you have 30 bedroom jobs to do each week. You can have it - my opinion, you need at least $60/hr at 'on the wall' time - to be succesful as your own painting contractor. How big is your crew, George?


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

send_it_all said:


> Apparently, if you were an electrician, or maybe a neuro-surgeon, you could slap em with a bill for $400/hr. because electricians and brain surgeons are gods among men.


nothing to argue with in that statement...

so long as you are talking about a competant neuro-surgeon...


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

mahlere said:


> nothing to argue with in that statement...
> 
> so long as you are talking about a competant neuro-surgeon...


lol


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

send_it_all said:


> Get over yourself. What you seem to be telling him is to add up his expenses and charge the minimum amount he needs. Sounds to me like he NEEDS less than $50/hr. What we are telling him is that we believe that based on the market here in our state, that he could very likely charge more than that. How is that a wrong answer.





> How is that a wrong answer?


Because "charge the minimum amount he needs" should include:

- Labour(including his wages if he is painting) and materials
- His Overhead (including what he wants his salary to be)
- His Net profit (whatever he wants it to be)

Needs means wants


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

PlainPainter said:


> George - not everyone wants to run a 30-man company. And I believe business models have to be radically different. At best you can only
> get B work with large type crews - not the single master/painter. If making money was as simple as getting more guys - everybody would be doing it.
> I've made 3 attempts at it - so far has been failures - not saying you can't do it - but it's not easy, and now you have to go after tons of work - I can't find enough work, even with advertizing to keep myself busy. And not to mention - how does having multiple crews benefit you for a 1 bedroom repaint? you can't fit 30 guys in a single bedroom. Certain jobs don't warrant more than one worker, and what you save by paying a worker a lower rate, you lose by employing a full-time salesman running around, making sure you have 30 bedroom jobs to do each week. You can have it - my opinion, you need at least $60/hr at 'on the wall' time - to be succesful as your own painting contractor. How big is your crew, George?



You wear different hats, but you are still a salesman, a painter, a manager.
Do you get paid for these activities?
Basic business principles are the same.



> If making money was as simple as getting more guys - everybody would be doing it. I've made 3 attempts at it - so far has been failures


Not that simple, but it's been done daily by a lot of companies.
We are doing ok, and getting better at it every day.



> How big is your crew?


We have 9 people on Payroll now, 
but we need at least three more going into the winter.

None of this happened overnight, I have been a painter for over 20 years.
It's only the last 2-3 years. I can really say I have been running a business.
There is enough information in this Discussion Board to run a great business.


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## outsidethelines (Oct 19, 2007)

Well, I decided to go with the $50 an hour. I get what you are all saying about large company vs one man business. My crew is small. By the way, he is a she. I'm a female painting contractor. It's a long story. 

Anyway, I appreciate all that was written here because I have lost the last five exterior bids to larger companies who can charge less, and have large crews who can get the work done faster. I agree with what was said about the quality of their work not being as good. I know I (we) can do much better, high end work. It is their loss. I get all my work through referral. Have never had to advertise. They spend tons of money on advertising!!! 
I just need to work harder to get the interior jobs and focus my energy on promoting the benifits of hiring a small business who can offer more personalized service and an eye for detail. 

Thank you for all the advice.


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## PlainPainter (Dec 29, 2004)

I've pretty much let go of the exterior painting side of the business - not that I won't quote it if asked by a referral - but why pay tons of marketing only to go up against immigrant crews? If people want quality - they'll farm you out. People getting multiple estimates - are the type that are only going to use price as an indication. Interior repaints is where I am still focusing my energy - hopefully you can convince people of your services over cheap street urchins - yeah, I am still fighting for interior. Like George - I will have to wait for 15 years of service and referrals before building up a business - most guys I see don't last 5 years.


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## outsidethelines (Oct 19, 2007)

To be honest, I am so fed up with this job to begin with; with drywallers doing crappy work all over and expecting me to fix it (oh hell no), the carpenters not working on schedule and delaying my work to the point of causing me extra work as a result (ended up rolling out 30 doors by hand rather than spraying), tile guys showing up whenever they please causing the bathroom painting to be delayed till God only knows when, and the freak'n designer changing her mind making me redo stuff, and waiting forever to show up to approve the colors based on the brushouts that I did like a week before min. and the weather and the this and the that.....FUDGE! I figure at $50.00 an hour for change order work, the GC is getting off easy!!!

I feel a little better now, LOL


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

outsidethelines said:


> To be honest, I am so fed up with this job to begin with; with drywallers doing crappy work all over and expecting me to fix it (oh hell no), the carpenters not working on schedule and delaying my work to the point of causing me extra work as a result (ended up rolling out 30 doors by hand rather than spraying), tile guys showing up whenever they please causing the bathroom painting to be delayed till God only knows when, and the freak'n designer changing her mind making me redo stuff, and waiting forever to show up to approve the colors based on the brushouts that I did like a week before min. and the weather and the this and the that.....FUDGE! I figure at $50.00 an hour for change order work, the GC is getting off easy!!!
> 
> I feel a little better now, LOL


And that is why I won't do new construction anymore. :no:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

ProWallGuy said:


> And that is why I won't do new construction anymore. :no:


that and the fact that your spanish is not good..


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

mahlere said:


> that and the fact that your spanish is not good..


Touché!


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

ProWallGuy said:


> Touché!


yeah....french won't help you...


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

Vermutung werde ich dann gebumst. :laughing:


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## PlainPainter (Dec 29, 2004)

My God - deja vu, all over again! I had the same scenerio - new construction, fickle interior decorator, tile guy taking up 4 rooms and showing up when he felt like it - then fielding customer complaints about plaster job. Took 2-1/2 months to get 3 weeks of scheduled work done. And when decorator/homeowner asked to take off small items on the bill, because she changed her mind - I wanted to blow up. Yeah - don't do new construction anymore either - give that to the mexicans as well.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

PlainPainter said:


> My God - deja vu, all over again! I had the same scenerio - new construction, fickle interior decorator, tile guy taking up 4 rooms and showing up when he felt like it - then fielding customer complaints about plaster job. Took 2-1/2 months to get 3 weeks of scheduled work done. And when decorator/homeowner asked to take off small items on the bill, because she changed her mind - I wanted to blow up. Yeah - don't do new construction anymore either - give that to the mexicans as well.





outsidethelines said:


> To be honest, I am so fed up with this job to begin with; with drywallers doing crappy work all over and expecting me to fix it (oh hell no), the carpenters not working on schedule and delaying my work to the point of causing me extra work as a result (ended up rolling out 30 doors by hand rather than spraying), tile guys showing up whenever they please causing the bathroom painting to be delayed till God only knows when, and the freak'n designer changing her mind making me redo stuff, and waiting forever to show up to approve the colors based on the brushouts that I did like a week before min. and the weather and the this and the that.....FUDGE! I figure at $50.00 an hour for change order work, the GC is getting off easy!!!
> 
> I feel a little better now, LOL


:laughing:*FOMALOL*:laughing:
All the flack we small timers take from all the trades for trying to do it all!
You guys just summed it up.
I could get the same speech (and have) from the tile guy,framer, plumber, hanger...... And I get to explain it all to the HO and try not to look like an idiot!:laughing:
The only guy I can schedule and rely on is me (usually, most of the time)


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## premierpainter (Dec 29, 2006)

Plainpainter....
We have many crews doing many jobs in a week. Over 20 men on the payroll today. We have the best customer relations and give each customer the best service around. You should look into www.yourcostcenter.com to find your true cost per hour. With all of the guys that we have, vehicles, equiptment and all else, our hourly rate is far less than your $50 an hour. For us to go into a house and paint one bedroom is just not worth our time. By the time you do the estimate, go to the job, set up all needed equiptment, move furnishings, prep and paint, then clean all areas, drive home and look at your profit on the job, I think you'll find that they are not worth painting as well. Love the single/ master painter line as well. In our own eyes- aren't we all masters at our proffession?


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## PlainPainter (Dec 29, 2004)

PremierPainter,
If you have bulk crews working big type jobs - and your guys are happy making $12-$14/hr -- then I am sure you don't need $50/man-hours. And I totally agree with your assesment about bedroom type jobs - but that's because your hourly rate has been crafted around the type of work you do.
If you started those 'bedroom' type jobs, with all the driving, moving furnishings, prep, paint, clean - then you would probably come up with the same conclusion as I - you need $60/hr 'at the job' rates, if a bedroom takes 3 days of work, with all the driving and estimates and what not then - you can see how such work, assuming you can get in 6 hrs of 'at the job', would cost $1,200 for just one bedroom. 

Now, this is the niche I am in - if it turns out, that there are enough mexicans willing to do this kind of work for $200 - like I see on craigslist, and there are tons of people happy with their work. Then I may look towards other avenues.


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## PressurePros (Jul 3, 2006)

Everyone can argue a number until they are blue in the face. Its meaningless. You will always hear a person that has owned a service business for awhile say the same thing. You have to charge what you need to stay in business. The variables (employee pph rate, how many billable hours per year, marketing expense, job quality, etc) are too great to take into consideration anyone else's numbers. Its why so many guys turn blue in the face when someone asks about "going rates". Going rates apply to commodities, not service or trades.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Oui mes amis!

Whenever I need passion and drama in my life, along with some acerbic wit, I just go to the painter posts. Worked as a full time painter for 2 years and then went on to be a carpenter. I'm still hearing the same carpenter jokes I heard 30 years ago. Anyone can roll paint on a wall, but only a painter can paint.
Charge what you think your worth, include cost of truck, ins, advertising ect. and then see whats leftover at the end of the year. Your not an hourly worker, your a businesswomen.


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## outsidethelines (Oct 19, 2007)

neolitic said:


> :laughing:*FOMALOL*:laughing:
> I could get the same speech (and have) from the tile guy,framer, plumber, hanger...... And I get to explain it all to the HO and try not to look like an idiot!:laughing:
> The only guy I can schedule and rely on is me (usually, most of the time)


Surprisingly, I am usually told that out of everyone, I am the only one that was reliable. Anyway, I don't really mind new construction because if I had a choice between that and painting all or part of a house that was neglected for the last 30 or so years, having to deal with lead paint, and killing myself sanding tons of spackle from crack repairs, I'll take the new construction. And, don't even get me started on the 60 something year old pack rat ladies with the 5 or more cats where the smell is so bad that even the smell of primer can't over power it. Or what about the exteriors where the owners dump their dogs crap all over one side of the house right where you have to paint. Not that I would ever want to go back to track homes again where the workers are leaving their piss bottles around for someone to unwittingly kick over. But, a single family home in a high end area where the HOs are cool and the GC is easy going, that to me is the preferred way to go, despite all the frustration of my previous complaints. As for the $50.00 an hour, the GC was fine with it. The work is done and the homeowners ended up taking the initiative with regard to the color choices. So, all worked out in the end. Phew!!


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## Joewho (Sep 20, 2006)

outsidethelines said:


> To be honest, I am so fed up with this job to begin with; with drywallers doing crappy work all over and expecting me to fix it (oh hell no), the carpenters not working on schedule and delaying my work to the point of causing me extra work as a result (ended up rolling out 30 doors by hand rather than spraying), tile guys showing up whenever they please causing the bathroom painting to be delayed till God only knows when, and the freak'n designer changing her mind making me redo stuff, and waiting forever to show up to approve the colors based on the brushouts that I did like a week before min. and the weather and the this and the that.....FUDGE! I figure at $50.00 an hour for change order work, the GC is getting off easy!!!
> 
> I feel a little better now, LOL


BACKCHARGE!


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