# Update to charging for estimates



## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

i'm definitely thinking about it, but want to do it precisely the way it should be done. i do jobs both large and small, so i'm thinking the trip charge be better than maybe charging for the actual estimate since some take an hour to do, and some take 10 hours or more to do. if i charge 50 dollars for a trip charge, that will help cover my cost of fuel to get there. this will only be for people that are new customers. repeat customers will not get charged this because i have enough great customers and i just give them a price and they always say go ahead with it. i know i'm not competing against anyone. that's when i do what i said above, put in some extra into the price to pay for all my hours spent doing the estimate and prep for the job.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

is all I am saying.


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

Mike how do you handle getting the fee. Do you expect a check as soon as you walk in the door, or is it after you have presented the estimate? If the latter I am curious to see if anyone will try to stiff you and say "come one now paying for estimates is crazy everyone else does it for free" I for one am all in favor of charging, I am very interested to see if I could do it. I'm thinking about setting up rather than an estimate, a "evaluation of your homes windows, doors, and exteriors. "


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## skymaster (Oct 23, 2006)

Charging a reasonable estimate fee and taking that fee off the job WHEN you get the job does 2 things for me;
1 You find out right up front if you have tire kickers or serious intent.
2. If they wont pay a small fee to cover legit expenses, then be prepared to get screwed if you get the job with a free estimate.
I always try to "pre qualify" folks at the first phone call. Before "estimate" even get into the conversation, I will have them tell me what they are looking for and I also ask them what they budgeted for this project. I explain why I want their budget, if they are asking for a 5000 job and budget 1200 bucks I tell them nicely that it isnt going to happen but thanks for calling.
Just my penny 
Jack


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

i'm going to start asking some other builders/remodelers in the area if they charge for estimates. if not many of them are doing , i may just stick to doing it for free and knowing if i get the job, i got my estimate time covered.

mike, i see what you are saying on the trip charge thing. 
do you put on your website that you charge for estimates or is it a verbal thing you tell them on the phone. i never get asked by people if i charge or not for estimates. some smaller jobs, it's not a big deal to me, but it's the ones that take a longer to do.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Mike how do you handle getting the fee. Do you expect a check as soon as you walk in the door, or is it after you have presented the estimate?


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## woodmagman (Feb 17, 2007)

Mike,this real fast when is presented s are free...and customers defto them. How all first consulter to


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

mike, i live in an area with some very high end builders who do similiar work to mine own and i am on friendly terms with many of them. so much so that on a job that none of us wanted to do, we talked about what are bids were, lol. never done that before but the job never got done because the customer was a pita, and no one bidding, wanted to do the work. we all ended up within 20k of the next guy but way over what the customer wanted to spend. i don't like doing that often, but for this case, it worked. normally, i don't know who i'm bidding against, if anyone.

i'm not going out to find random contractors to talk to that i don't know.
i just want to find out if they are charging or not. or have ever thought about it. 
also remember, i can get two phone calls a month and stay busy for a long time. most of the larger jobs we do are anywhere from 3 months to 7-9 months.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

On my home page.
"A $25.00 fee, deductible from the cost of any work done, is charged for looking at any project for estimating purposes. This helps offset my increased gas and insurance costs."


It helps my costs, and doesn't stop the estimate flow.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

tinner666 said:


> On my home page.
> "A $25.00 fee, deductible from the cost of any work done, is charged for looking at any project for estimating purposes. This helps offset my increased gas and insurance costs."
> 
> 
> Actually it looks good on the page, I mean it's blunt and honest. I don't think you need to explain why you charge to come out, the only thing is, I had to read down to find it.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

It gets rid of a lot of tire kickers. 1 in 3 will pay the $25.00 and still go with somebody else.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

I have a Service Charge of $49 & up. It has worked well so I'm running a higher quality bid, or going to a buyer rather than a shopper. I don't charge to bid work for existing clients. Considering that the average estimate probably costs me around $200, I'm just trying to control the loss if I don't get the job.

Dave


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## highgear (Jan 6, 2005)

I am glad to hear people are charging for estimates. We charge $100.00 for a detailed estimate. 90% of the people agree the others call someone else. Since charging for estimates we close 75% of our leads


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## chexfive (Dec 5, 2007)

*I'm in too!*

Our average roofing repair estimate takes 3 hours or more if it is a steep roof and depending on the size, tracking leaks, going into attics, and ect. 
My last estimate was 4 hours. 1 hour each way drive then measuring the roof (70 square and cut up). Then add on that some of homeowners want the estimate mailed or emailed to them and ect. 
Plus we have always provided extremely detailed written estimates on triple carbon. We have also given the potential customer alot more with the estimate for free (won't give those details here ), but not anymore. I'm finding I'm paying for more and more expenses and fees. 
A thirty five mile estimate X 2 = 70 miles or 6 gallons of gas @ $3 a gal = $18 + my bottle of soda = $19. It adds up real quick! 

I'm going in at $49.00 and I'll make it deductible from the estimated price if they use us. 

Call for your free estimate and a roof consultation for $49.

Let's do this thing!
Good Deal!
Chexfive


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

We started charging for estimates finally. We had to, we have started getting these wild goose chase calls that are doing nothing but sucking time out of our day. $100 for an estimate. But there's value attached - Lorne will wheel their footage, give ideas for installation, a price right then, followed by a written estimate. If someone is too cheap to pay $100 for what we give them, they are definitely going to balk when they hear the price of fence.

No more tire kickers. I want to thank Mike Finley for putting the idea out here to charge for the estimate.


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## Pete M (Dec 10, 2007)

Susan Betz said:


> ... wild goose chase calls
> ... doing nothing but sucking time out of our day
> ... If someone is too cheap to pay $100 for what we give them
> ... No more tire kickers.


I think I'll open a restaurant and charge anyone who walks through the door a $5 cover charge to look at the menu and give them the $5 off when they order.

Hey, why not? I have overhead don't I? Why shouldn't I charge potential customers a fee so they can see if they like my prices and what I have to offer?

Hmmm... I'm sure most who came in would buy, but I also wonder how may good 1st-time customers wouldn't come in the door. At least I know that contractors will love the concept and I don't have to deal with those pesky window-shoppers.


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

Pete M said:


> I think I'll open a restaurant and charge anyone who walks through the door a $5 cover charge to look at the menu and give them the $5 off when they order.
> 
> Hey, why not? I have overhead don't I? Why shouldn't I charge potential customers a fee so they can see if they like what I have to offer?
> 
> Hmmm... I'm sure anyone who came in would buy, but I also wonder how may good 1st-time customers wouldn't come in. At least I know that contractors will love the concept.


The analogy doesn't hold. You walk into a restaurant, you WILL spend money.


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## Txbassboy (Oct 31, 2006)

Pete M said:


> I think I'll open a restaurant and charge anyone who walks through the door a $5 cover charge to look at the menu and give them the $5 off when they order.
> 
> Hey, why not? I have overhead don't I? Why shouldn't I charge potential customers a fee so they can see if they like what I have to offer?
> 
> Hmmm... I'm sure anyone who came in would buy, but I also wonder how may good 1st-time customers wouldn't come in. At least I know that contractors will love the concept.


Apples and oranges!! If it took four hours or more of McDonald's time to take your order you can bet they would charge you to walk in!!:shifty:


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Not the same Pete--!
Time, travel cost and expert advice are worth something. We're not giving them a price list they can choose a remodel job from. Hmmm!


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## Pete M (Dec 10, 2007)

Txbassboy said:


> Apples and oranges!! If it took four hours or more of McDonald's time to take your order you can bet they would charge you to walk in!!:shifty:


How long it takes has nothing to do with it. It's all about overhead.

The "estimate charge" is nothing new. I've been dealing with it since 1973. You go ahead and do what's right for YOUR business. But, what I'm trying to say is that in this "crunch market" you need to be looking for ways to get into more homes, not less. Those costs get spread out over the jobs you sell. I'm not suggesting that anyone work for free -rather, get your compensation within the project, just like you get paid for all of your other overhead. Why turn off potential customers with small fees before they even see you? 

Maybe the restaurant analogy wasn't a good one, but I was trying to make a point.

You can quote a fairly broad dollar range quickly, right? That's what they get for free. If they want you to dial it down to a solid quote - then you charge them up front if you must - because they're asking you to perform a service and commit to a specific price. You have a liability.

I guess you'll have to see it for yourself before you believe me. Charging upfront for the initial visit may pre-screen the tire-kickers, but it also bypasses thousands of dollars of good business that you've advertised for- to get in the 1st place. Why risk it??? The larger your company is, the more slippery the slope. You can not calculate how much you are losing. And, every job you don't get, goes to your competition and only makes them stronger.


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

Pete M said:


> How long it takes has nothing to do with it. It's all about overhead.
> 
> The "estimate charge" is nothing new. I've been dealing with it since 1973. You go ahead and do what's right for YOUR business. But, what I'm trying to say is that in this "crunch market" you need to be looking for ways to get into more homes, not less. Those costs get spread out over the jobs you sell. I'm not suggesting that anyone work for free. But why turn off potential customers with small fees before they even see you?
> 
> I guess you'll have to see it for yourself before you believe me.


We need to do fewer estimates, not more. Especially in the residential fence area, which is our low-markup area. Our residential fence starts at $50/lineal foot. We're just not willing to be the rejected high bid every time. We aren't coy about the cost of the fence over the phone, so if someone is truly interested in having us do the fence, they can pay a fee to have us take a look. We'll take the fee off the cost of the fence.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

I think it depends on the situation. If you want an extra closet built or an entertainment center- no charge. You qualify and then decide.
If your instincts tell you the caller is a shopper, mention the estimate fee. It's time contractors got paid for estimates. No one is arguing your opinion, I think many of us are ready to kick things up a notch.
Doctors, lawyers, accountants and the list goes on get paid to consult, and we go to their place of business. Many contractors will never charge, but enough will and it will become part of the process. If I get 5 calls and no one will pay for a visit, I'll drop the charge and wait for business to pick up. But it's time we started charging. I've been doing this since the late 60's and for years have thought we should get paid for estimates. I don't buy the old "It's part of your costs" argument.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Pete M said:


> How long it takes has nothing to do with it. It's all about overhead.
> 
> The "estimate charge" is nothing new. I've been dealing with it since 1973. You go ahead and do what's right for YOUR business. But, what I'm trying to say is that in this "crunch market" you need to be looking for ways to get into more homes, not less. Those costs get spread out over the jobs you sell. I'm not suggesting that anyone work for free. But why turn off potential customers with small fees before they even see you?
> 
> ...


The company I work for does not do work for homeowners, but I can tell you if we did we would definitely charge for an estimate, we don't want to work for anyone that can pick up a phone, we want to work for people that appreciate quality. Any moron can run around giving a number to every tire kicker that picks their name out of the phonebook, but if someone knows that they are paying for the estimate it weeds out the vast majority of the people that don't intend to have the job done in the first place.


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## fez-head (Mar 15, 2005)

Pete M said:


> I think I'll open a restaurant and charge anyone who walks through the door a $5 cover charge to look at the menu and give them the $5 off when they order.
> 
> Hey, why not? I have overhead don't I? Why shouldn't I charge potential customers a fee so they can see if they like my prices and what I have to offer?
> 
> Hmmm... I'm sure most who came in would buy, but I also wonder how may good 1st-time customers wouldn't come in the door. At least I know that contractors will love the concept and I don't have to deal with those pesky window-shoppers.


I think I'll do the same thing - except open a Nice Bar instead........oh wait a minute...there are already 5 of them down the road that charge $5 to walk in and they never credit my $5 when I buy a $6 drink. Lets not even discuss tips  

I should get free samples so that I know which Bar makes the best drinks. They should also bring said samples to my home as well because after all they should be honored that I may give them my business. I may even give a good referral and tell my drunk Friends about them as well.


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## Pete M (Dec 10, 2007)

Jesse Kirchhoff said:


> I think I'll do the same thing - except open a Nice Bar instead........oh wait a minute...there are already 5 of them down the road that charge $5 to walk in and they never credit my $5 when I buy a $6 drink. Lets not even discuss tips
> 
> I should get free samples so that I know which Bar makes the best drinks. They should also bring said samples to my home as well because after all they should be honored that I may give them my business. I may even give a good referral and tell my drunk Friends about them as well.


Nah.... You should work in a car dealership, selling trucks to contractors. Then you can charge them $100 up front before they tie you up for 3 hours on test-drives and trying to get your lowest price. :clap:


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Jesse Kirchhoff said:


> I think I'll do the same thing - except open a Nice Bar instead........oh wait a minute...there are already 5 of them down the road that charge $5 to walk in and they never credit my $5 when I buy a $6 drink. Lets not even discuss tips
> 
> I should get free samples so that I know which Bar makes the best drinks. They should also bring said samples to my home as well because after all they should be honored that I may give them my business. I may even give a good referral and tell my drunk Friends about them as well.


Good one, it's apple to oranges but thats a good one. I asked someone yesterday after they asked if a second door install would be the same price, "would McDonalds charge the same price if you wanted another cheeseburger" ? Not a clever response but it answered the question.


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## Pete M (Dec 10, 2007)

*Defend your position*

Look folks... the reason I challenged the assertion in the 1st place was not because I disagreed with charging for estimates, but rather because I wanted to see you defend your position.

So far, no one has defended it from a purely business perspective.

Here's your challenge:

1. How does charging for estimates increase your business?
2. How should you calculate what you really need to charge just to break-even?
3. How much business will you lose or gain and why?
4, Are the customers the real problem or is it something else?


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

Pete M said:


> Nah.... You should work in a car dealership, selling trucks to contractors. Then you can charge them $100 up front before they tie you up for 3 hours on test-drives and trying to get your lowest price. :clap:


But that salesperson's only concern is selling the vehicles, not building them after the sale.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Pete M said:


> Look folks... the reason I challenged the assertion in the 1st place was not because I disagreed with charging for estimates, but rather because I wanted to see you defend your position.
> 
> So far, no one has defended it from a purely business perspective.
> 
> ...



1.I wouldn't do it to increase my business, but rather my productivity.

2. How much is your time worth?

3. If you do it from the day you open your doors you lose none.


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

Pete M said:


> Look folks... the reason I challenged the assertion in the 1st place was not because I disagreed with charging for estimates, but rather because I wanted to see you defend your position.
> 
> So far, no one has defended it from a purely business perspective.
> 
> ...


Good questions.

1. Charging isn't designed to increase business, it's meant to make the process of giving estimates more efficient. 
2. Haven't figured this out entirely yet.
3. Haven't gathered any statistics yet.


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## Pete M (Dec 10, 2007)

Susan Betz said:


> Good questions.
> 
> 1. Charging isn't designed to increase business, it's meant to make the process of giving estimates more efficient.
> 2. Haven't figured this out entirely yet.
> 3. Haven't gathered any statistics yet.


I suppose if you have less and less estimates, you become more efficient?

If you haven't figured out the costs and you don't have the statistics then on what practical basis can you defend your argument?

I'm not picking on you.


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## Pete M (Dec 10, 2007)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> 1.I wouldn't do it to increase my business, but rather my productivity.
> 
> 2. How much is your time worth?
> 
> 3. If you do it from the day you open your doors you lose none.


 
Do you believe your responses reflect how a businessperson thinks?


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## Pete M (Dec 10, 2007)

Susan Betz said:


> But that salesperson's only concern is selling the vehicles, not building them after the sale.


So what.... Don't his hours count?


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

Pete M said:


> I suppose if you have less and less estimates, you become more efficient?
> 
> If you haven't figured out the costs and you don't have the statistics then on what practical basis can you defend your argument?
> 
> I'm not picking on you.


Less estimates that become sales is more efficient. Remember I said we will talk about cost per foot over the phone. If they want to go forward, that's where the clock starts ticking.

If we were really charging by the hour for an estimate, it would be higher than a $100 flat fee. Since we're only starting to charge, we really don't know how it will affect things, and that's not an unrealistic response. 

I don't feel picked on. Your points are things we've struggled with, especially recently.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

1. It will increase the success rate for estimates accepted, because it will weed out tire kickers. Qualifying leads does this also to a lesser degree.
2. Breaking even is not the goal, nor should it be. Why should we be concerned with that? 
3. We won't lose business any more than you would by not charging for estimates.

Question 2 and 3 are superfluous and not a consideration for me. Rather I believe I am getting more serious meetings and saving time is my priority, not money. No one will get rich on giving estimates and no one on this thread has mentioned it being a profit center. Some costs will be defrayed, but not enough to make me want to give up my job and become a full time bidder.
As for how do we arrive at a price for an estimate, the answer to that is, whatever you think you can get for it. Pete, your a sales trainer and I'm guessing playing "Devils Advocate" here, I'm not knocking that, but some of us are professional sales people and have the experience and business success to prove it. This will be policy for some and others will scoff, I think those of us that charge have good reasons for it and if it proves detrimental to business we can back off and give free estimates again.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Pete M said:


> Look folks... the reason I challenged the assertion in the 1st place was not because I disagreed with charging for estimates, but rather because I wanted to see you defend your position.
> 
> So far, no one has defended it from a purely business perspective.
> 
> ...


very simple Pete...

1)if by charging for estimates increases my closing ratio from 35% to 70%, then I need 1/2 as many estimates...this means less loss from estimates and more profit from work.

2)do a break even calculation...duh...

3)theoretically none...in terms of gross dollars...should actually be a gain in terms of profit.

4)yes and yes...resi customers are a PITA...resi contractors are typically bad people persons, and generally horrible sales people..

How'd I do?


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

Pete M said:


> So what.... Don't his hours count?


A salesperson has the luxury of devoting all working time to selling cars, on the car lot. Closing is a matter of statistics. A salesperson gets paid just for talking to people all day; the closing ratio makes it worthwhile, assuming the salesperson has any talent. So yes, the hours count - it's all about the sale.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

btw- the downside to "free" estimates is that you inadvertently punish your customers with higher prices to cover the shoppers that waste your time...


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

mahlere said:


> btw- the downside to "free" estimates is that you inadvertently punish your customers with higher prices to cover the shoppers that waste your time...


Well said.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Pete M said:


> Do you believe your responses reflect how a businessperson thinks?


I help run a pretty successful business. I also know that does not make me a businessman, nor do I think like one. A contracting business is not selling widgets, and the more widgets I sell the more money I make, you approach it like that you'll be out of business quick. You are not selling product in a contracting business, you are selling knowledge and reputation, the customer can get the product anywhere, if charging for estimates is going to pre screen the people that are shopping from the people that actually want the work done, you're doing yourself a service, not the other way around.


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## Pete M (Dec 10, 2007)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> I help run a pretty successful business. I also know that does not make me a businessman, nor do I think like one. A contracting business is not selling widgets, and the more widgets I sell the more money I make, you approach it like that you'll be out of business quick. You are not selling product in a contracting business, you are selling knowledge and reputation, the customer can get the product anywhere, if charging for estimates is going to pre screen the people that are shopping from the people that actually want the work done, you're doing yourself a service, not the other way around.


You're preaching to the choir. My trade is plumbing as yours is. What I'm talking about is as relevant in your business as any other. I am licensed as a GC and a sewer contractor as well. Save your breath - I've been down your road and know yor business as well as anybody.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

I get it now!
PeteM will weed through our answers, edit the responses and put them in his new sales training book.

Think Business! Think Again!

Chapter4---Charging for your time?


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## fez-head (Mar 15, 2005)

From a "purely business" point of view it does not make sense to not charge for our time. We not want or even need every lead that comes through. We will not be the right fit for most of the leads and many more will not be the right fit for Handyman Solutions. 

We are building a strong base of IDEAL clients _(and the referrals they bring with them of like minded individuals)_ and have even started *"firing"* a few of the trouble makers that are not a good return on the amount of time that we invest with them. (This could start a hole other thread ) The wasted time could have been much better spent serving our ideal clients far beyond what they are used to with past contractors. 

This model is not for everyone that's for sure - it was horrifying at first to think of potentially loosing customers due to charging for estimate.... and firing a few long term clients was really crazy. I am just sharing what what I have learned from past mistakes and what is working out great for us now even in this tight economic environment.


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## Pete M (Dec 10, 2007)

silvertree said:


> I get it now!
> PeteM will weed through our answers, edit the responses and put them in his new sales training book.
> 
> Think Business! Think Again!
> ...


Not quite, here's the reality.

I had a very good, very long run in contracting. Built a great business, sold it and retired. Later, I got involved with helping young contractors learn business skills. It's a hard road. They resist. So, I focus on sales because that's where the rubber meets the road. I enjoy what I do and am glad to be able to "give back". That's what I really do.

When I hear or read statements that I know are contrary to proven methods - I challenge them. Why? Because in the contracting world you are often called upon to defend your position. Sometimes by customers, sometimes by employees or vendors and sometimes in forums like these.

My ultimate goal is to help others succeed. But, success is ultimately defined by the individual. It's too bad that so many want to reinvent the wheel.

Enough said....


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

that's all well and good...but did i pass the test?:clap:


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

Pete M said:


> Not quite, here's the reality.
> 
> I had a very good, very long run in contracting. Built a great business, sold it and retired. Later, I got involved with helping young contractors learn business skills. It's a hard road. They resist. So, I focus on sales because that's where the rubber meets the road. I enjoy what I do and am glad to be able to "give back". That's what I really do.
> 
> ...


Well, let's look at it from a sales perspective.

I sold cars for years. I was very, very good at it. The average salesperson's closing ratio is about 10%. When I sold Fords, my closing ratio was 29%. When I sold GM's, my closing ratio was 26%. This means that when I talked to people, a little more than 1 in 4 was actually going to buy a car from me that day (or that week, because unlike most salespeople, I would let a prospect walk off the lot).

Now, when I worked in a car lot, my clients came to me. They knew they wanted to buy a car, and they knew about how much money they could afford to spend. It was fairly efficient. If someone was a tire kicker, I could establish that without prequalifying. I allowed people to kick tires, but I didn't waste a lot of time on them. 

When going to a client's home to do an estimate, there is time spent driving, meeting, greeting, developing rapport, measuring, demonstrating, explaining, etc. Yes, it's a sale just like a car. But time isn't free. Time estimating has to be charged just like pounding a post into the ground has to be charged. Either you charge a nominal fee up front to eliminate the tire kickers, or you work that time charge to cover all estimates into all your actual sales. 

A plumber will charge me $50-$75 just to come to my house and say hello. And I expect him to. How is this any different from charging for estimates?


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## fez-head (Mar 15, 2005)

Pete M said:


> My ultimate goal is to help others succeed. But, success is ultimately defined by the individual. It's too bad that so many want to reinvent the wheel.
> 
> Enough said....


What's wrong with adding to, and improving on the design and efficiency of that wheel? The human spirit will never be satisfied with the status quo and will always try to improve what is around us. Personaly I like it that way :thumbup:


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

Residential remodeler will get hung up on in my market for even considering a charge for an in estimate. It just won't happen. However, the plumbing, electrical,and hvac trades in my area have the up front fee for coming out. I can assure you this has been going on since the 1960's at least. Don't get me wrong, I have a series of prequalifying questions that I ask before I go out on the estimate, and I would say about 30% of my calls I tell them I'm not interested. Of the 70% that I look at I close about 6 out of every 10. 

Now, the fence lady(Susan) manufactures and installs fencing and is wrestling with the charge for estimate. This is simple. "Mam I need you or your husband to measure the area, and tell me what product you would like and I will email you an estimate. Be sure to let me how many gates and what size you want mam. If your not sure what type of fencing you would like mam, you can come to my showroom and I will personally show you all the beautifull products we carry. Or, for your convienience, we have a website you can go to look at our products in the comfort of your own home. All of our employees are wonderful and insured and when they finish they will do a complete walkthrough with you to ensure you are 100% happy with their work mam.

Most likely her response will be, "you guys are awesome, when can you start?" 

Or, you could always direct your prospective residential clientel to me. I can set up a seperate number for you to transfer them to me when they call. I will be more than happy to sell for you. Please let me know if you are interested I would be happy to meet you Susan.


Brock


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## fez-head (Mar 15, 2005)

There have been a *lot* of good posts here that are sure to tilt the scale for some of the contractors that were on the fence and nervous about charging for thier time. Everyone here is very generous to add thier thoughts for others to consider.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Pete, probably everyone on this thread has read, is reading and will read business help books. I sold remodeling after being a field carpenter and before I started my own business, I wore out my library card taking out every book on business and sales I could get my hands on (the internet has sure made this easier). But I don't think we have to defend our position at all. Some things change and deserve to! I don't think the resistance you speak of has been shown on this thread. Everyones responses have had merits. All I'm saying is "Let's charge for estimates in the home". Thats not reinventing the wheel. But your point if I understand it is, some good tried and true business practices are being ignored nowadays and there is resistance to these good core values. Well, true enough, but we owe it to ourselves to try new things, and if they work, great and if not it's back to the drawing board. That's old fashioned business sense also. Nuff said!


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## Pete M (Dec 10, 2007)

Susan Betz said:


> A plumber will charge me $50-$75 just to come to my house and say hello. And I expect him to. How is this any different from charging for estimates?


It depends on where we're talking about. The AC guys were the 1st to do it. My plumbing company in Los Angeles had a difficult time charging for estimates and keeping 50 trucks rolling, 6 days a week. When the phone rang off the hook, we charged for estimates - but lost about 20% of the calls. When we didn't charge, we got most of them. Personally, I was selling about 33% close rate with no pre-qualifying. My average job was about $900 when you factor in all jobs. So, on 100 service calls, the 20% lost calls when we charged, translated into into 20 lost calls, (20%X100). On average, we would have sold 6 of them, (33%).

6 lost calls @ $900 avg was $5,400. We were running about 180 calls every day.

In the final analysis, by charging, we lost out on (1.8X$5,400) or $9720 gross for every day we charged for estimates.

We were charging $39 for the trip and up to 1/2 hr diagnostic time.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Pete M said:


> It depends on where we're talking about. The AC guys were the 1st to do it. My plumbing company in Los Angeles had a difficult time charging for estimates and keeping 50 trucks rolling, 6 days a week. When the phone rang off the hook, we charged for estimates - but lost about 20% of the calls. When we didn't charge, we got most of them. Personally, I was selling about 33% close rate with no pre-qualifying. My average job was about $900 when you factor in all jobs. So, on 100 service calls, the 20% lost calls when we charged, translated into into 20 lost calls, (20%X100). On average, we would have sold 6 of them, (33%).
> 
> 6 lost calls @ $900 avg was $5,400. We were running about 180 calls every day.
> 
> ...


yet Maio, Mike Diamond, George Brazil, et al, have been charging for estimates for years with apparent success....

how much more profit would you have made running 30 trucks and selling 60% of the calls?

did you have the manpower to handle the additional calls? 

it's all numbers...


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Not a bad thing to be told. :thumbsup:


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## fez-head (Mar 15, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> I get a refusal rate of about 1 in 20 and out of those that refuse believe me, I'm not feeling that I'm missing out on a customer I would want to work for. Like the guy who flat out told me that he wasn't going to pay somebody for the chance for them to make a living by doing work for him.


You pegged it right there. :laughing:


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Pete M said:


> It depends on where we're talking about. The AC guys were the 1st to do it. My plumbing company in Los Angeles had a difficult time charging for estimates and keeping 50 trucks rolling, 6 days a week. When the phone rang off the hook, we charged for estimates - but lost about 20% of the calls. When we didn't charge, we got most of them. Personally, I was selling about 33% close rate with no pre-qualifying. My average job was about $900 when you factor in all jobs. So, on 100 service calls, the 20% lost calls when we charged, translated into into 20 lost calls, (20%X100). On average, we would have sold 6 of them, (33%).
> 
> 6 lost calls @ $900 avg was $5,400. We were running about 180 calls every day.
> 
> ...


Using your numbers, that is roughly 3.25 million gross for the year.

We grossed more than that last year with 4 trucks and 9 guys, without spending a dime on advertising.

If you base your business on volume, you have to have the mindset to do what it takes to maintain volume. Many home centers work on the same principle.


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## Pete M (Dec 10, 2007)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> Using your numbers, that is roughly 3.25 million gross for the year.
> 
> We grossed more than that last year with 4 trucks and 9 guys, without spending a dime on advertising.
> 
> If you base your business on volume, you have to have the mindset to do what it takes to maintain volume. Many home centers work on the same principle.


Oh my God... I give up! Folks, I genuinely enjoy a lively debate. I'll even take the opposing side that I might not necessarily agree with. 

If you want to use my examples and turn them around to make your point - that's fine. But you should at least take the time to carefully read what I actually wrote and be accurrate in your response. Because if you don't - you make my point and I'll call you on it.

Ladies and Gentlemen - forgive me, but this is the level of business mis-understanding I deal with on a daily basis.


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> Using your numbers, that is roughly 3.25 million gross for the year.
> 
> We grossed more than that last year with 4 trucks and 9 guys, without spending a dime on advertising.
> 
> If you base your business on volume, you have to have the mindset to do what it takes to maintain volume. Many home centers work on the same principle.


 
not only bs, but a steaming bowl of it


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Brock said:


> not only bs, but a steaming bowl of it


I think the rest of your post must have got lost somewhere in the ether, you surely didn't mean that to be the whole of it? I expect the rest of your post explained what it was you didn't like about the post you are referring to, and put forward your opinion on the matter

John


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

I'm having some trouble following your math and concept Pete.

I get your assumed income on lost calls due to the trip charge, but...

How much did you make in real trip charges to offset assumed income?

If you had called back those 20% lost calls and offered to go out for free, do you really think they would have met your average close rate?

How would your business change by running fewer calls with a higher closing rate?

Dave

PS I don't understand why you doubt Killer's numbers. He works for GCs, so no advertising expense. He works in Chicago high-end. His material markup in $$$ alone is probably very sweet.


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## SuperiorBuilt (Mar 20, 2007)

I would be interested to find out what the average handyman charges for a trip charge. I looked back at this past year and saw how many free estimates i gave (yes it was alot). I have started 2008 with a new policy of charging for handyman estimates (a small trip fee) to stop wasting my time with tire kickers.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

This topic has gone to H*** but as gas is over $3 a gallon, taxes and ins. keep rising, Im doing NOTHING for free.

Never did anyway, just figured I'd wake some people up.


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## fez-head (Mar 15, 2005)

SuperiorBuilt said:


> I would be interested to find out what the average handyman charges for a trip charge. I looked back at this past year and saw how many free estimates i gave (yes it was alot). I have started 2008 with a new policy of charging for handyman estimates (a small trip fee) to stop wasting my time with tire kickers.


We charge a $35 service fee Commercial and Residential. For the first couple of months it was credited toward the final bill but not anymore. 

This year we will also charge for drivetime both ways (instead of just one) for both T/M and Flat rate projects.


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

Teetorbilt said:


> as gas is over $3 a gallon, taxes and ins. *keep rising,* (among just about everything else), Im doing NOTHING for free.


word:thumbsup:


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

So I just lost my 3rd job to "charging for estimates".....sigh....
THis is turning into an expensive venture...at least a few grand for me...

These have been ppl that have gotten my info either from the web or from manufacturers directly. They call, tell me what they have and when it stopped working (I do tankless water heaters mainly). I give them a very brief rundown, attempt to feel them out as to not only their tire kicking tendencies but also their personality (or lack thereof).
After I get the info I want to know I very politly inform them there is a 50 dollar fee to come out and do the estimate that is credited back to their final invoice after the work is complete.

Each of the last 3 clients basically said the same thing..."Oh, I'm going to wait than, because there is another contractor comming over to give an estimate and he doesn't charge for it".
I stay confident and let them know that this isn't pocket money for me and there is a an ever increasing expense to come out and give estimates. I can tell the second I mention "there is a 50 dollar....." the job is gone....long gone. These are not all that big of jobs, they are not remods...usally 2500-3500 jobs. Out of the 3 I just lost I know I would have closed at least one...more likley all 3.

I will not be doing this anymore, it just doesn't work for my business. This little venture cost me thousands...for what? To see if they are price shopping? Seeing if they are tire kickers? I'd rather make the money and deal with not getting the jobs, than all but killing any chance before the first 5 minute phone call is done. When one is talking about thousands of dollars in work, and before you hang up, your hitting them up for a petty 50 bucks....seems pretty lame to me. If a contractor told me that I'd tell him to get fuked also. Thanks but no thanks on this one. And now I can't even call them back and offer to do it for free as I have zero credibility....just seems like a huge waste in an effort to do what?


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## premierpainter (Dec 29, 2006)

JamesNLA said:


> When one is talking about thousands of dollars in work, and before you hang up, your hitting them up for a petty 50 bucks....seems pretty lame to me.


 
I couldn't agree more. $50 is not going to make or break our company. Does seem lame to me as well. 18 years and I have never charged for an Estimate and don't ever plan to. Sorry but that is my opinion only. What do you do, knock on the door and say Hello, can I get my check for $50?? Nope not happenin'!


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Thats too bad. Didn't work for you guys. OK, back to the drawing board. But people will pay.
A customer called me today, Christmas tree lights burned or melted her carpet so I called a carpet guy I know. He gets $140 to go out there to blend in a patch, customer has carpet remnant. $140 just to come out, will do one patch and leave. She thought that was great, and if he can't do a perfect patch it's still $140. If her carpet rem won't work it's still $140.
It's been working around here but I get the fogettaboutit people too.
Still think we should charge to come out. There will always be free estimates too, whatever the market will bear I guess.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

JamesNLA said:


> So I just lost my 3rd job to "charging for estimates".....sigh....
> THis is turning into an expensive venture...at least a few grand for me...
> 
> These have been ppl that have gotten my info either from the web or from manufacturers directly. They call, tell me what they have and when it stopped working (I do tankless water heaters mainly). I give them a very brief rundown, attempt to feel them out as to not only their tire kicking tendencies but also their personality (or lack thereof).
> ...


it does work for your business...there are quite a few contractors in your area that charge...my feeling is that it's the indian and not the arrow that keeping it from working for your business...


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

Well, in theory this makes perfect and complete sense to me. It does eliminate a certain class/group...whatever you wanna call it, from wasting my time, my concern is at what cost to me?

I have been reading these threads since it started (bout 6-9 months ago I think) and werked up the nads to actually try it.....Only once have I ever had a new customer actually ask me if I charge for the estimate. When that happened I promptly replied no. He had one of those "oh good" cheerful replies....now ask me if I got the job? I dunno...just frustrated a little is all. I get it that there will be times when business decisions will be hard...and I'm on the very edge of my box with this one. Was talking to the Mrs. (she could sense I was in a foul mood after this one) and simply put "there's just some jobs that your not meant to have". I guess....

I think I will reserve this approach to larger jobs that require more thought and effort to estimate. The tankless units that I retro in resi is pretty simple for me to estimate now and more often than not, HO's are out of hot water and they are starting to smell when I get there and most just say ok do it.

I'm all for making my business more efficient and profitable however the amount of jobs I estimate vs. close is pretty close. Too close to warrant this approach. I have seen my competition branch off into other areas of plumbing speciality simply because I close so much of the shared referrals we all get. I think this is a case of if it ain`t broke don't fix it.


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## fez-head (Mar 15, 2005)

Sorry to hear that you lost your leads. It may have been a good idea to start out with a lower service fee and bump it up later. 

If we were not branded so well in the community it would be a lot tougher thats for sure....but it is worth it ......unless you are usualy the lowest bidder - then I really don't know what to say because that is a different mindset all together. 

Either way good luck and I hope you do well. :thumbsup:


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

I've been following this for awhile and had my thoughts, but now I think I'll share them. 

I think this is a good idea for certain companies at certain times. 

If you are the local hot shot that has a bunch of people willing to wait in line for you, then by all means charge well for EVERYTHING. Now if you're working on establishing a reputation like that then start with the lower end of the cost spectrum. Do a great job and in time you'll command more money, including estimate fees.

If it's crazy how much work is out there and you can't find the time to do all those estimates then charge for the estimate. It'll show who really wants it and is willing to pay for a pro. Now if it's a slow time and other guys are hungry, then maybe it's not such a good time to charge for an estimate.

If you do additions, large remodels, custom homes etc.. and an estimate changes considerably from project to project with a lot of time and work involved in an estimate, plus the clients have more money and happiness at stake in their contractor selection, then maybe a charge is in order. If you're in a business where the jobs are not something the client really thinks about a lot and your business is more of a small volume deal and is fairly easy for you to estimate then why worry about $30-$50 at the risk of losing jobs?

I considered this very thing and decided to work on my qualifying skills instead of charging for an estimate. I made a list of questions that would tell me what I wanted to know and then I found good ways to work them into conversation without being blatant about it. My closing ratio has gone way up while at the same time I've shied away from more jobs than before.

Plus I've started using a design/build two part contract that I think will help make sure we get paid for our work more often.

Hope this helps.

Wack


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## woodmagman (Feb 17, 2007)

JamesNLA said:


> Well, in theory this makes perfect and complete sense to me. It does eliminate a certain class/group...whatever you wanna call it, from wasting my time, my concern is at what cost to me?
> 
> I have been reading these threads since it started (bout 6-9 months ago I think) and werked up the nads to actually try it.....Only once have I ever had a new customer actually ask me if I charge for the estimate. When that happened I promptly replied no. He had one of those "oh good" cheerful replies....now ask me if I got the job? I dunno...just frustrated a little is all. I get it that there will be times when business decisions will be hard...and I'm on the very edge of my box with this one. Was talking to the Mrs. (she could sense I was in a foul mood after this one) and simply put "there's just some jobs that your not meant to have". I guess....
> 
> ...


Can I interject?
You have made a couple of real key points; you close almost everything that you look at. Then why would you charge for the quote. You seem to be a profitable company? You are not losing jobs to price shoppers? Then why charge. You are building your cost for the quote into the overall cost any way are you not?
I think the main reason to charge is to qualify the presumed price shoppers on the big jobs so that you do not do a ton of leg work for free. 
I think for others the question of why they charge should relate to the time spent and not just the fact that you can. Lets face it, there are guys that can sell snow balls to a snowman and in the process charge him for a full length mirror so he can admire them, just because they can does not mean it good for everyones business.


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## Pete M (Dec 10, 2007)

JamesNLA said:


> So I just lost my 3rd job to "charging for estimates".....sigh....
> THis is turning into an expensive venture...at least a few grand for me...
> 
> These have been ppl that have gotten my info either from the web or from manufacturers directly. They call, tell me what they have and when it stopped working (I do tankless water heaters mainly). I give them a very brief rundown, attempt to feel them out as to not only their tire kicking tendencies but also their personality (or lack thereof).
> ...


 
James, you're exactly right. Plumbers, electricians and HVAC companies that run service, have a much shorter selling cycle than remodelers and most other trades. You can almost always figure out your prices on-the-spot. Many times it's an emergency service request. Bad water heaters, leaks, blocked drains, electrical problems, no heat, etc, are "NOW" jobs.

In this market, you have to concentrate on getting your foot in the door so you can sell the job - NOW. Then, you try to get started ASAP, to stake your claim. Charging for estimates does filter out some tire-kickers, but just because someone doesn't want to pay it does not mean they're a tire-kicker.

When you take the call on the phone, ask them, "How soon did you want the work done?" If it's urgent to the customer - get over there. You can always upsell an emergency project with additional work. If they say "sometime in the future" you can always go when it's convenient for you or not at all. I think you're far better off filtering customers over the phone with qualifying questions, rather than using a service/trip/estimate charge. Charging $50 bucks is nickles and dimes compared to what you lost.

Save those charges for times when your phone is ringing off the hook.

Get your @ss in the truck and sell the work - NOW. Just determine how much distance you're willing to cover.


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## Crawdad (Jul 20, 2005)

I don't see lawn services, like mine, doing this in the near future, as there are so many people doing it for free.
Many folks assume that a lawn service is not a "real business" just a guy doing it for beer money, or to make a few bucks until they get a real job, so they don't mind having 6 or 8 of us come out to give them a price, wasting our time and gas. I'm always looking for a way to prequalify people, but I really haven't found one that won't scare off someone who could end up being a good customer.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Even though I promote the fee I don't believe it's for everyone. All this has been covered and the end result is. 
For some businesses it's a reasonable request and a qualifier. We all learn to qualify, some of us do it more or at just flat out better at it. The fee helps.
For other businesses with immediate need clients it slows down or interferes with buying behavior.
Last for me is you can't deny that people will pay, I pay my truck mechanic $75 to tell me what my truck needs and how much. So this Blue Collar guy pays another Blue Collar guy and I bring my truck to his shop.
Jewelry stores charge to price out some repairs. I'm sure some of you could add other examples.


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

As someone else said, as long as there are a bunch of contractors who DON'T charge for estimates it will be a hard sell for some guys. If everyone did it it would just be the way it is. They don't, so it really depends on who you are, what you do and who they are. Not all combinations will pay the fee.


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

I'm pretty fortunate .I rarely go on an estimate and not get the job.My phone intuitions are usually golden.I occasionally stumble across a job which is fubar,or a jeckle/hyde type customer but those are the exceptions, not the rule.I give em up on occasion like everyone.Some just sound like trouble from the get go and it's like,we're busy for the next few weeks,try back.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

However in regard to #2


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## fathersonfab (Apr 27, 2007)

Crawdad said:


> I don't see lawn services, like mine, doing this in the near future, as there are so many people doing it for free.
> Many folks assume that a lawn service is not a "real business" just a guy doing it for beer money, or to make a few bucks until they get a real job, so they don't mind having 6 or 8 of us come out to give them a price, wasting our time and gas. I'm always looking for a way to prequalify people, but I really haven't found one that won't scare off someone who could end up being a good customer.


Crawdad... 
the handyman services I do I don't do estimates. I tell them I show up with me truck and tools and I start working. I give them a ballpark over the phone and say it could be more or less... for small to medium jobs this is satisfactory for most people.. I usually schedule an appointment right then.

Maybe this would work for lawn care too... ask how big their lawn is, how many trees and shrubs... ball park it and then show up and work and get paid..?? maybe? just a thought...

BTW... I'm all for charging for estimates on anything more that a ballpark figure. Anything that requires time and thought should be billable.


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## fathersonfab (Apr 27, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> That tells me one of three things.
> 
> #1 You might suck on the phone
> #2 What you offer your customers is presented to them as a commodity like gasoline, no different to get my gas from your station or the one across the street for 1 cent less.
> ...



Mike Finley nails it again!!!!


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## fez-head (Mar 15, 2005)

> *#1 You might suck on the phone *


That was my very first thought also - but didn't know a "tactful" way of saying it :laughing: 

_By the way I also suck on the phone so I know what happens from past experience _


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

pcplumber said:


> The numbers are hypothetical. My numbers show that we are equal in closing sales. Including tire-kickers, both of us close 70% of our leads, or we do not close 305 of our leads for various reasons. You can plug in any number you want, but I (hypothetically speaking) will always close more sales than you because I go to more leads. You (not really you) who would not go to a lead unless they pay will lose sales because you cannot qualify customers over the phone. You will lose sales because your judgment is wrong. I think you only think you can (not specifically you).


I think your hypothetical world is flawed.

If he is always busy, then why would he need to spend time giving estimates for people who don't value his time? Even if he gets the job, these people don't value his time and asking for freebies, extras and causing more of a headache. Your time is worthless to them.

His life will be less stressful dealing with clients who acknowledge that other people's time is valuable.

And if he is working at full capacity, he'll have more free time to enjoy his life than giving out estimates to people who consider it disposable. If you charge for the estimate, the customer is holding something that has value in their hands and will take it more seriously.

It is also likely that his clients will be doing higher priced jobs, so instead of 10 of the small jobs you aquire through your methods, he got one large one of equivalent value.

So, while both methods may work and make similar amount of money, you're targeting different clients. One is not right nor wrong, and both have the potential to make money.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Just some thoughts


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> It's not for everybody, but I guarantee how amazed you would be to how easy it is to get from somebody.
> 
> Let's really face facts here, it isn't an ethical issue, it isn't a moral issue, it isn't anything other than a fear issue. If it was ethical or moral then you shouldn't charge your customers for the work you do for them either.
> 
> ...


LISTEN.....WILL YOU PLEASE STOP LETTING FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF GOOD OPINIONS? YOU ARE RUINING EVERYTHING....




:laughing:


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*We are two different types of people.*

I hear people saying they are satisfied with charging for estimates and they obviously are satisfied with the amount of work they are getting. What I see this thread is about, is whether or not you should charge for an estimate, or a diagnosis. This depends on whether or not you want more from your business.

These are the two possible answers: If you are satisfied with the amount of leads you turn into sales, then go ahead and charge for estimates. If you want to close the maximum number of potential leads, then try to charge for an estimate, but give in if they do not want to pay for the estimate.

All the points about the customer being cheap or a tire-kicker is a myth and a poor opinion. As stated a few days ago, all humans are spoiled by all the free things and discounts every business offers. Many customers don't understand why they should pay for an estimate, or they are not as business savvy as us. Therefore, you lose business from a good customer because they are not as educated as us, and not because they were cheap or tire-kickers. You cannot tell the difference over the phone.

This is all about numbers. The more jobs you bid the more jobs you get. Contractors who want the to close the maximum number of leads cannot afford to make poor judgments over a telephone conversation. I would think you would get fired.:shifty::smile::smile:


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## orson (Nov 23, 2007)

The only problem with charging for estimates is that every contractor isn't doing it.

Just imagine how much more time we would all have to spend with our kids if you eliminated all the people getting more than 3 estimates.

I'm curious, I often hear folks on here talking about qualifying their customers but no one ever gets specific about how they do it, other than charging for estimates. To me it seems like a cut through the BS, staightforward way of qualifying.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

----


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*There is no way to qualify a customer.*



orson said:


> The only problem with charging for estimates is that every contractor isn't doing it.
> 
> Just imagine how much more time we would all have to spend with our kids if you eliminated all the people getting more than 3 estimates.
> 
> I'm curious, I often hear folks on here talking about qualifying their customers but no one ever gets specific about how they do it, other than charging for estimates. To me it seems like a cut through the BS, staightforward way of qualifying.


It would take many pages to give my opinion why there is no way you can qualify a customer with the exception of some extreme circumstances. I had tenants call and tell me they wanted to do $20,000 repairs on homes they were renting. I went to some of these estimates and sold the jobs. Sometimes the tenant had a deal with the landlord and sometimes I met with the tenant and sold the job directly to the landlord.

Most contractors probe customers with the wrong questions. The problem is, customers seldom tell the truth, many customers don't really know what they want, some think they want something, some think they don't, and some change their mind, regardless of what they initially thought they wanted.

These are the questions I would ask if I had too much business and wanted to filter out the weaklings.


Do you have blue prints, or approved plans? This customer did, so I know he was a serious buyer?

If the answer is no. At what stage are you into your project? Do you have any drawings on paper?

Do you want us to help you design your project, or do you know exactly what you want?

Did you work with any architects or contractors to determine a budget for your project?

We have a few irons in the fire right now, so when are you ready to get started if I give you a good price?

We will spend a very long time doing a very thorough job, we will do a lot of research, I will do my best to give you my best price possible, and I will put a lot of time into making sure I cover every detail to give you exactly what you want. Are you willing to pay $250 for this service? No! Well, okay that is fine. I'll still see you tomorrow at 9 am.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> PC, this is pretty good cause I like the fact that there are different outlooks and different methods that yield good profits.
> 
> The one you like is based on feeding the machine with everything, like a sifter, just shovel it all in there and you have confidence in your system that it works best when you just close your eyes, and throw it all in the bucket and don't worry about what is in there, your system ensures the crap will go one way and the gold will go another. System works so who cares what goes in it, in the end the gold will come out and the crap just goes somewhere else and nothing to worry about.
> 
> ...


Great story. Very accurate with the exception that I am a perfectionist and demand that my employees produce the best product that money can buy, and the comparison of the woman's time and money is peanuts compared to what I do. Not bragging, but just have to clear the facts.

But, that was really an impressive and fairly accurate analogy.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

---


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## outlaw (Jan 7, 2009)

Pc plumber- are you for real?

Out of all the people on this site, I disagree with what you have to say the most. Maybe the stuff you say works for you. It doesn't work for 99% of the rest of us. You give the impression of having a very large ego. If most of the contractors on this site ran their business the way you are advising them to, they will not last. 

Qualifing over the phone is easy if you know what questions to ask. 

I am a sales force of one. My time is valuable to me and my family. If it is not valuable to the person on the other end of the phone I will soon find out.

When the phones are slow,I don't qualify as hard. I can effectively run 3 sales calls a day. More than that and I am too hurried to sell.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*I am not offended*



outlaw said:


> Pc plumber- are you for real?
> 
> Out of all the people on this site, I disagree with what you have to say the most. Maybe the stuff you say works for you. It doesn't work for 99% of the rest of us. You give the impression of having a very large ego. If most of the contractors on this site ran their business the way you are advising them to, they will not last.
> 
> ...


I don't get offended and I do have a fairly large head. I agree with you 100% when you say you don't want to be rushed. I have a company policy and a philosophy that says when we have a lot of estimates, we will block our minds from all other jobs and spend the entire day closing a sale if that is what it takes because the one we are on may be the only one we close that day. We also have a policy that says we will go to every lead we possibly can, and we have one more policy that says, if we are going to work an 8 or 10 hour day we are going to try to make as much money as possible. The way I read many of the post is contractors would rather try to judge a customer over the phone and take the day off rather than take a chance and try to sell a job.


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## zappy (Feb 19, 2009)

highgear said:


> I am glad to hear people are charging for estimates. We charge $100.00 for a detailed estimate. 90% of the people agree the others call someone else. Since charging for estimates we close 75% of our leads


Do you refund the $100 with a signed contract?


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## Martin Co (Sep 8, 2008)

It's been a few months, any updates from those who are charging? I'm considering doing the same.


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Martin Co said:


> It's been a few months, any updates from those who are charging? I'm considering doing the same.



The whole charging for estimates thing can be summed up very easily-

If you've got plenty of leads and an excellent reputation, with a wide base of people who are keen to employ you, and only need to close a few of them, then charge for your estimates. That will result in you seeing less people, not having to spend so much time estimating, getting paid for that time and making good, profitable sales to people who value your time.

The rest of us will continue, through necessity, to spend a proportion of our time producing estimates free of charge to all who ask for them in the hope that some of them will result in sales.

John


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## ottagosoon (Nov 4, 2008)

> *My take on free estimates*
> These are some sample calculations with hypothetical numbers to show how much more a contractor may earn by giving free estimates.
> 
> For this example, you and I run identical contracting companies. Our average sale is $6,000 and both of us close sales on 70% of our leads.
> ...


You assuming that the guy who charges for estimates is spending the other 40% of his time with his thumb up his a**.
Maybe he worked his job better and was getting a much higher profit with the extra time.
Maybe he did something else to drive in more calls and was now getting 8000 dollars avg. sales.
Its not that cut and dry.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

ottagosoon said:


> You assuming that the guy who charges for estimates is spending the other 40% of his time with his thumb up his a**.
> Maybe he worked his job better and was getting a much higher profit with the extra time.
> Maybe he did something else to drive in more calls and was now getting 8000 dollars avg. sales.
> Its not that cut and dry.


Very good grasshopper.

This is very true.

What is silly is PCplumber is in the industry that is the easiest of any to be paid for his time. The plumbing industry is pretty much responsible for the trip charge coming about.


Smarter not harder - that's the secret to success.


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## fez-head (Mar 15, 2005)

Our update is we are *still *charging for our consultations and have out sold all previous years.....so much so that we had to install a second phone line with roll over in the office. Our entire customer base continues to *change for the better*. We have a much higher caliber of client - not necessarily "more wealthy" - just more *respectful *of our time, skills and outstanding customer service. 

Although we do not have the extraordinary numbers like PC - we are steadily growing, purchasing commercial property and equipment and our team of employees is happy with their jobs, their clients and their company. Life is good. :thumbsup:


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## KitchenSync (Feb 11, 2009)

Interesting posts. There are so many factors - location, perceived value, customer base, business model. 

I also think there's another factor that felt like it was missing as I read through the posts: time. 

How long does each bid take? Is it something that can be calculated in an hour? Or are there pieces/surfaces/ceilings/windows to be designed, with further time for multiple sub-contractor meetings? 

Because much as I'd love to meet eleventy-million prospects in a week and quote them right away as some of the posters have stated, the amount of time it takes me to come up with a bid for, say, an entire house remodel? Hah. So not going to complete that quickly.

So, for those of you asking: I've worked for two design/build firms in the past ten years. Both charge a design retainer, credited towards the project as the client continues. If they don't continue, we keep the retainer.

Of course, if a client is asking for basic ballpark figures, those are free. We have lots of previous projects to fall back on. Visiting a client's home isn't a problem either - it's a good chance to build in value - but once a client wants to see concepts and actual figures, then it's retainer time.

Even when I was in the cabinetry field in the early 90s, I still charged a design retainer (for designing anything that wasn't already on a blueprint - those quotes were free and took an hour or so. Pretty simple homes.) Made the change when people started almost tossing the bids at our office; they needed 3 bids and we were a number. Got tired of it, and the retainer weeded out the tire kickers. This was in a small town where everyone swore I couldn't do it. So I did it quite well for 12 years and then moved to California.  

In fact, I remember this discussion being carried out just as heatedly in the early 80s between my parents and other contractors and sub-contractors in our hometown. It hasn't actually changed that much. :laughing:


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

KitchenSync said:


> So, for those of you asking: I've worked for two design/build firms in the past ten years. Both charge a design retainer, credited towards the project as the client continues. If they don't continue, we keep the retainer.
> 
> *Of course, if a client is asking for basic ballpark figures, those are free.*


I can see asking a prospect for a design/quote fee if they already know roughly how much it is going to cost, but some of the posters are suggesting that people are happy to pay for an estimate when they don't know whether it might cost $5000, or $25,000. That I don't see

John


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

john elliott said:


> but some of the posters are suggesting that people are happy to pay for an estimate when they don't know whether it might cost $5000, or $25,000. That I don't see
> 
> John


Well, whether you can see it or not, it is happening. It's all about perceptions built in the customer.

We have 2 charges, one is a estimate fee to show up and the other is a design fee if a design is needed. There are plenty of customers who are paying both.

Also the customers who don't know if it will cost $5000 or $25,000 are rare. Customers with the ability to pay $25,000 for a project usually have the ability to get some insight into what a project costs, they've usually done other projects in their life, they have the ability to do some research and they have peers to gather information from about their projects and costs.

I've never once ran into a customer who thought a $25,000 project would cost $5000. Now I've met plenty who thought a $25,000 project might be $15,000-$20,000 and had plenty of those end up spending $30,000 or more before it's over. I'm pretty sure the higher up you go in project cost the less in the dark custmoers you are going to run into.


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