# The battery or the tool?



## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

I know what most of you prefer but right now I am in the market for a new cordless 1/4" impact driver. Every company seems to have deals going on right now and I can't decide which deal to move on. 

I am looking at Bosch, DeWalt, and Makita. I was in the market for the impact driver only but about $20 more and you get the hammer drill also from each brand. With all the instant rebates they are all about the same price. Here is what I am dealing with. 

Bosch; No frills, not as much selection to expand, 2 free batteries (slim packs, mail in rebate)
http://www.cpotools.com/bosch-clpk2...lt,pd.html?start=5&cgid=bosch-18v-battery-mir 

DeWalt; More bells and whistles, lots to expand, 1 free battery(ships with kit)http://www.factoryauthorizedoutlet.com/dewalt/products/DCK290L2-FB.asp

Makita; Bells and whistles, lots to expand, 1 free cordless tool (mail in rebate)http://www.factoryauthorizedoutlet.com/%5Cmakita%5Cus%5Cproducts%5CLXT218.asp

So the question is, brand aside, what is more important to you guys? Would it be better to have the extra tool or to have extra batteries? I have played both sides in my own head and can't come to a conclusion.


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## Rustbucket (May 22, 2009)

I would lean toward more batteries. That being said, I would still get the Makita.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

That Makita is the nice one. The one I got was less on sale and has a lighter duty driver-hammer drill, only good for a tapcon here and there. It looks like the Bouch is out of stock:sad: Yup I like the Makita:thumbsup:


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm kinda married to Dewalt..............But if I ever were to switch it would def be to Makita.

Hey White Boy, You still up?


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## dvatt (Apr 16, 2009)

I have the 12v desalt impact and I love it. It's great for putting in lag screws. I never reach for my 18v too cumbersome.


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## mnjconstruction (Oct 5, 2008)

Big Shoe said:


> I'm kinda married to Dewalt..............But if I ever were to switch it would def be to Makita.
> 
> Hey White Boy, You still up?





Im very married to dewalt. That being said i do have a makita set too. Both are very good. The extra battery will come in handy. I think i have 22 batteries for dewalt. Its nice having extra batteries!


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## goneelkn (Jan 9, 2010)

Makita, start your collection.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Depending on what you are using it for...I got the mini Makita impactor and driver. About $150 for both, a case, a battery for each gun and a charger.

If you need a bigger impactor then the Makita is still the way to go, the brushless will make the battery last 20-30% longer, but you pay for it.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Big Shoe said:


> Hey White Boy, You still up?


:no:





eating cereal and fixin coffee now and off I go.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

If you need a cordless hammer drill, get the tool. I can't think of a time I had a problem where my corded Milwaukee hammer drill was a worse choice than a battery operated. Even setting up a small generator and extension cord isn't as big a hassle as drilling holes in concrete slower than a good hammer drill can do it.

If you don't need a cordless hammer drill, get batteries.


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

cordless hammer drills are kinda worthless. on rare occasion it is nice to have if you only have a couple small holes to put in stucco or something, but i wouldn't pay any extra for it knowing what i know now.
i see no reason to not get the makita. it comes with 2 of the 3.0Ah batteries and those last a good amount of time and still charge fairly quickly. you won't be disappointed.


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## jiffy (Oct 21, 2007)

If you buy from a local Makita dealer they should be able to give you an even sweeter deal. My local dealer is offering a free 3rd battery and a free bare tool with that LXT218 kit you are looking at buying.

Now that's a deal.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

hdavis said:


> If you need a cordless hammer drill, get the tool. I can't think of a time I had a problem where my corded Milwaukee hammer drill was a worse choice than a battery operated. Even setting up a small generator and extension cord isn't as big a hassle as drilling holes in concrete slower than a good hammer drill can do it.
> 
> If you don't need a cordless hammer drill, get batteries.





aptpupil said:


> cordless hammer drills are kinda worthless. on rare occasion it is nice to have if you only have a couple small holes to put in stucco or something, but i wouldn't pay any extra for it knowing what i know now.
> i see no reason to not get the makita. it comes with 2 of the 3.0Ah batteries and those last a good amount of time and still charge fairly quickly. you won't be disappointed.


I already have a newer DeWalt 18v hammer drill with 2 good batteries that works fine. I use the hammer drill function quite a bit. Works great for me. 

Like I said, it is roughly $20 more to get the hammer drill with the set so I might as well.



jiffy said:


> If you buy from a local Makita dealer they should be able to give you an even sweeter deal. My local dealer is offering a free 3rd battery and a free bare tool with that LXT218 kit you are looking at buying.
> 
> Now that's a deal.


Sweet!! Now can you pick that up for me and ship it here for free!?:whistling:laughing:

That is a great deal! Seriously if you can find a way for me to get that for the same price I would purchase right now!


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CrpntrFrk said:


> I know what most of you prefer but right now I am in the market for a new cordless 1/4" impact driver. Every company seems to have deals going on right now and I can't decide which deal to move on.
> 
> I am looking at Bosch, DeWalt, and Makita. I was in the market for the impact driver only but about $20 more and you get the hammer drill also from each brand. With all the instant rebates they are all about the same price. Here is what I am dealing with.
> 
> ...


I just picked up two more 18v impact drill sets from Menards. They are on sale for $229, and come with the two battery rebate. Can't beat that IMO!

http://www.menards.com/main/tools-h...ordless-combo-kit-2-tool/p-1629598-c-9072.htm


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

CrpntrFrk said:


> I already have a newer DeWalt 18v hammer drill with 2 good batteries that works fine. I use the hammer drill function quite a bit. Works great for me.


I'm usually either putting in a couple dozen 5.8" lag bolts into concrete for ledgers, so the holes are big, or putting in a bunch (dozens or hundreds) of Tapcons. I use the 9A Milwaukee for this - seem to be faster.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

hdavis said:


> I'm usually either putting in a couple dozen 5.8" lag bolts into concrete for ledgers, so the holes are big, or putting in a bunch (dozens or hundreds) of Tapcons. I use the 9A Milwaukee for this - seem to be faster.


I have the same drill and would have to agree. Take that back, for those I would whip out the Hilti!:laughing:

I like using the cordless when drilling into mostly block for tapcons or the like. Anything bigger I too take out the Milwaukee.


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## MitchellInstall (Dec 13, 2010)

I think the current crop of Makitas are the best thing they have going besides the rail saw. This is the first cordless set I've owned that I want to keep from now on (if only). Usually I can't wait for my cordless to break already so I can go get something better. 

I used Dewalt for a long time and they were fine except the battery clips always broke, forcing me to strap them on with blue tape. They probably addressed that long ago, it's been a few years since I've owned Dewalt.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

So I just bought the Makita set because I am a little drunk right now and I wanted to. 

SOOO.....if I don't like it just a heads up to you guys that I will put it up for sale here first to those who would want it!!!


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## GRB (Feb 23, 2009)

You're gonna hate it. I'll take it off your hands right now for 20 bucks. :thumbsup:


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

GRB said:


> You're gonna hate it. I'll take it off your hands right now for 20 bucks. :thumbsup:


It is clear to me that you at this point may have had more to drink than I and I will forgive you for your drunken post!:laughing:


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

if you use the ryobi next to the dewalt there is no comparison. The dewalt is better stronger faster.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

jiffy said:


> I have had both and used many other impacts. I just don't see how that could be possible. My Makita can do things I haven't been able to do with other impacts. The brushless Makita even out shines the regular BTD141 Makita I have....and I said that wasn't possible.


This is the first day and an hour or two to compare. I really want to give it a week or two to make sure I don't like it but the deals are running out. 

I need to buy a Bosch by the 16th to get the free batteries. The DeWalt deal is up at the end of the month. 

I am thinking I might just buy the other two and put them all head to head in a no holds barred competition. I have the other two up on different tabs ready to order as I type this.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Metro M & L said:


> if you use the ryobi next to the dewalt there is no comparison. The dewalt is better stronger faster.


I shouldn't say never but, it is very highly unlikely for you to ever see a Ryobi in my truck, tool box, trailer, etc, etc.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

I'm probably wrong again but didn't I here something about those Li-ion battery's needing to charge and die 3 or 4 times to get a full charge going:blink:


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Found it on the interweb:blink:
Must be true:blink:
http://robwitham.hubpages.com/hub/Lithium-Ion_Battery_Maintenance
Lithium-Ion batteries are also low-maintenance batteries. One of the advantages of Lithium-Ion batteries is that the batteries have no "memory effect." The batteries do not require scheduled cycling to maintain them. Despite the fact that Lithium-Ion batteries are low-maintenance, there are some steps you can take to extend the life of your Lithium-Ion battery.

Charge Lithium-Ion batteries fully (preferable overnight) before beginning to use the battery
Fully charge and discharge Lithium-Ion batteries 3-4 times to allow the battery to reach its maximum rated capacity
Clean the battery contacts on the Lithium-Ion battery and the device with alcohol and a cotton swab if the contacts become dirty
Use the Lithium-Ion battery at least every 2-3 weeks
Keep Lithium-Ion batteries fully charged when not in use
Charge Lithium-Ion batteries regularly
Avoid regularly running Lithium-Ion batteries too low
Never leave Lithium-Ion batteries discharged for long - the batteries do self-discharge and the charge could drop low enough to damage the battery
Keep Lithium-Ion batteries out of high heat -high temperatures may cause premature battery failure
Store Lithium-Ion batteries partially-discharged in a cool, dry place if you will not be using the battery for several weeks


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Well DWB....your too late. Next thread will be all three kits head to head. 

I pulled the trigger and bought the DeWalt and Bosch. 

I will sell the two that I don't want.

http://www.contractortalk.com/f40/makita-18v-bosch-18v-dewalt-20v-head-head-119159/#post1516370


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

I think you should put the Ryobi (Yobi) in the battle. I've heard that it is fast and impressive:blink:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Are you using the dewalt in 3ed gear as opposed to the makita in 2nd? Is that why the hammering sounds slower n the makita?


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Leo G said:


> Are you using the dewalt in 3ed gear as opposed to the makita in 2nd? Is that why the hammering sounds slower n the makita?


I am comparing the impact drivers. Niether my DeWalt nor my new Makita have more than one gear.

I will be testing the hammer drill later just to have a little fun.:laughing:


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## HeyGuiher (Dec 22, 2010)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Found it on the interweb:blink:
> Must be true:blink:
> http://robwitham.hubpages.com/hub/Lithium-Ion_Battery_Maintenance
> Lithium-Ion batteries are also low-maintenance batteries. One of the advantages of Lithium-Ion batteries is that the batteries have no "memory effect." The batteries do not require scheduled cycling to maintain them. Despite the fact that Lithium-Ion batteries are low-maintenance, there are some steps you can take to extend the life of your Lithium-Ion battery.
> ...


so which one is it? keep them fully charged or partially discharged?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

HeyGuiher said:


> so which one is it? keep them fully charged or partially discharged?


Short term fully charged is fine. If you want to Long term store them then half charge is ok. Just beware as all battery's self discharge and some more than others. I wouldnt do a long term storage of li-ion no matter what. Use them often and charge them as often as you can.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Use them often and *charge them as often as you can.*


Even lithiums have a limited number of charge/discharge cycles before they go south. Probably not a good idea to toss in extra charge cycles "just because".


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

CrpntrFrk said:


> Makita is sslllooooowww.
> 
> Makita = tat tat tat tat tat tat
> 
> ...


I put my makita DRILL against one of my employees dewalt impact while driving 5/16" x 3/4" self tappers and the makita DRILL is just a slight shade quicker than his dewalt IMPACT.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Even lithiums have a limited number of charge/discharge cycles before they go south. Probably not a good idea to toss in extra charge cycles "just because".


Makes no difference. They are not calculated as how many times it's in the charger it's calculated on how many full charges it gets. If it takes an hour to full charge the battery you could put it in the charger 4x for 15 mins and that will be one charge cycle. Most li-ion have a cycle life of around 2000 charges. It's best to keep it charged than let it sit and drop to 0 volts as the cell will not charge in these chargers. If you know what your doing you could connect a power supply that has more volts than the battery and bring the battery back into safe range for the chargers to charge but when they dropped to zero it will do permanent damage to the cells. Many of these tool will have a low voltage cut of built in so that you don't drop them to low. But if you hit the low voltage cut of then left the cell sitting for a week or 2 then it will prob not charge. li-ion can be good and bad. For us we keep them charge often so not a big deal but for a person who hardly uses the tool the battery's could be bad after just 3 months if not correctly stored.

You have to watch the makita battery's too. The circuit board runs off just one cell in the pack. It's discharges very slow but if left for long enough it can drain that cell and the pack won't charge. It can be fixed by replacing that cell that's bad but depends if you can be arsed.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Makes no difference. They are not calculated as how many times it's in the charger it's calculated on how many full charges it gets.


Well, duh. So you figure the battery is at 75% capacity, and you put it on to bring it up to max "just because". You just [most likely] unnecessarily brought it one cycle closer to death.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Well, duh. So you figure the battery is at 75% capacity, and you put it on to bring it up to max "just because". You just [most likely] unnecessarily brought it one cycle closer to death.


Again it makes no difference. You get 2000+ full cycles. It makes no difference if you do them in 4000 half cycles or 8000 qtr cycles you still only get the maximum number of full cycles. Your example needs to take into account how the battery was charged to begin with. It's only a full cycle if charged from a full discharge cycle then fully charged. The battery may have been fully charged then drained to 75% of capacity and you charging it to 100% capacity is only 25% of a full cycle. 


Someone explained it like this to me a long time ago and it made more sense to me. Think of it as a bottle of water with 2000ml of fluid in it. It makes no difference how fast you use it or how slow you use it or how many mouth fulls or half mouth fulls you only get 2000ml of water out of it. Of course these packs can get much more than 2000cycles some of mine currently have over 3000 cycles. They def don't hold a charge like they did but they still charge and run.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Believe the hype all you want; the fact is that the inescapable laws of physics say that more cycles of electromechanical stress = closer to death. Agreed that disuse can do the same thing, but that alone is no justification for profligate cycling.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

It'll die when it wants to. I had 4 batteries, 3 are going strong and the other the chip was set off and the charger refuses to active to charge the other. It wasn't used anymore or less than the others.

You might get 250-3000 charges out of the pak. Sometimes you get a bad cell, and for some reason it is always the first in the line and triggers the chip (Makita Li-Ion)


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## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)

I finally gave my brushless and standard Makita impacts a side by side 3" screw marathon on ramp decking. They pretty much ran the same (the brushless lasted a little longer). The huge difference was heat, the standard one was so hot you could barely hold the top of it for more than 20 seconds. The brushless was hot but nowhere near as hot as the standard. This alone makes the brushless worth the extra cost to me.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Believe the hype all you want; the fact is that the inescapable laws of physics say that more cycles of electromechanical stress = closer to death. Agreed that disuse can do the same thing, but that alone is no justification for profligate cycling.


It's not hype its how it works. I have had $500 chargers that cycle batteries on purpose to increase performance for races. Like I said a cycle is a cycle and it makes no difference to the cells how you complete them cycles. A cycle is a 100% discharge and recharge. It's clear you don't understand the first thing about battery technology as anyone with 5 mins using a RC car charger knows what you should and shouldnt do with li-ion and li-po cells. Like I said in the past 2 posts it makes no difference if them cycles are completed in 10% charges or 100% cycles your gonna get 2000+ 100% cycles from that battery. Dont listen to me no skin of my nose. I will carry on topping by packs of even if they are 70% full and you can carry on charging yours how you like. I bet there's not many people on here with 6-7 year old li-ion packs that still run and charge. 

All you have to do is keep them topped up and they will keep running. Leave them and they will fail as these chargers will not charge a pack bellow cut off voltage as they can reverse polarity and explode when charged and if you want to store them then keep them under 70%. Some chargers have a storage setting on them but not tool chargers.

And remember it only takes one cell in that pack to be below cut off and the whole pack is bad. Unlike ni-cd and ni-mh you can't cycle the packs to balance them back and as the li-ion packs are balanced charged independently.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Those are probably NiMH batteries not Li-Ion


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Leo G said:


> It'll die when it wants to. I had 4 batteries, 3 are going strong and the other the chip was set off and the charger refuses to active to charge the other. It wasn't used anymore or less than the others.
> 
> You might get 250-3000 charges out of the pak. Sometimes you get a bad cell, and for some reason it is always the first in the line and triggers the chip (Makita Li-Ion)


If the pack that went bad is a Makita pack then it's because the pack was left to long after a discharge. Depending on what tool you drained it with you could have easy put it below cut off voltage without even knowing. Leave it for a couple of days before charging and there's no going back. It's an easy fix though but for the price of new packs not worth it to some people. There's a few sites online showing you how to fix them for about $5 and a hour of time.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> It's clear you don't understand the first thing about battery technology as anyone with 5 mins using a RC car charger knows what you should and shouldnt do with li-ion and li-po cells.


What's clear is that unlike me, you don't have over three decades of experience with electronics work. Enjoy your batteries. :thumbsup:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> What's clear is that unlike me, you don't have over three decades of experience with electronics work. Enjoy your batteries. :thumbsup:


Li-ion has not been out for 30 years so what's that got to do with anything. Your commenting about something you have no idea how it works. Do you even know how a balance charger and balanced cells work?

Here's what's going on inside the Makita charger but you have no control of the options. This is a balance charger. As you can see each cell is charged as an individual cell and not as a pack. If even one of them voltages is below cut off the pack won't charge. Not even on this high end bit of kit. I can get around it but with tool batts it's not that simple. you can even see the cycle mode that increases your pack performance and storage mode. Now would all these features be on a charger like this if they didn't need them!


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)




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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

When I need battery help I go to Battery Bills and he knows everything


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