# New chimney question.



## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

I am no stranger to building a basic 8" flue chimney, but almost all of my work is repair work, meaning I go tear down the 50 year old one and put up an identical one.

In that instance the siding has already been trimmed up to the chimney and the eaves cut out, I just have to build it plumb and flash it in.

On a new chimney installation on a house with wood siding should I remove the siding and put the chimney in the recess against the sheathing then trim around it, or should I just build it up off the wall and cut through the eave as necessary?

My first instinct says to build it as close to the wall as possible so I don't have any risk of the footer tipping, but my second instinct says that if I do my footer correctly and pin it to the existing foundation it shouldn't matter either way.

I just want to be prepared with an answer when the HO asks for my opinion, messing with the siding would probably raise the price a good deal since it is a lot of screwing around.


----------



## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

I should have gotten more details first, I just found out the height of it.

Definitely going to need wall ties.

I am still curious for the sake of knowledge though, could you build a free standing chimney say under 20 ft without fear of the wind coming through and knocking it over?


----------



## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

why risk, with an overly adequate foundation pinned on the bottom and pulled from above, it can be done,
but why


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

The footing needs to be 2x as big as the chimney, I would even go 3 feet by 3' with a crap ton of steel into the foundation. I usually have a pal of mine dig these out so its no biggie to make it over sized. 

Cut the siding out adding a ground to each side, or whatever you want to use. Paper it before you put on the grounds. Caulk it unless its like a clear stain. Cut the roof out plumbing with a 4' level when you get the chimney near it. Best way for a wood hack like me to get a straight cut. Paper under the trim you remove, or rubber it if you have any of that kicking around. 

Wall tie the piss out of those chimney block chimneys. I would even mention that the chimney wont last 10 years without a coating like California stucco or equivalent on it. Exposed blocks just dont do well. I suppose it could be a brick chimney, dunno.

Leave expansion for the flue as well.


----------



## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Just built one last week about 16' tall. I pinned to the existing foundation and wall ties about every other block. I ran straight up the wall which was brick and then vinyl above the eave line (this was on a gable end.)

One aspect I did not expect was the sheathing was built out a half inch behind the vinyl and I had to bump out the block a bit to clear the sheathing. I managed to keep a straight corner because I was holding the block out a bit anyway. If you put a 6' level on the outside you can see the taper out, but not with the eye.

Piece of cake I thought. Cut the eaves, box it in and add a bit of trim.:clap:


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

sitdwnandhngon said:


> My first instinct says to build it as close to the wall as possible so I don't have any risk of the footer tipping, but my second instinct says that if I do my footer correctly and pin it to the existing foundation it shouldn't matter either way.




The National code that governs in my area( N.W. Indiana) mandates that the masonry chimney have a 2" air space from combustibles. That means roof fraiming,sheating,soffit,facia.etc. I would look closely at your code before building it as close as possible to the wall.


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

This is the section governing in my area. R1001.15 Chimney clearances.


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

oops ! forgot the connection. http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/seattle/seattle_residential/PDFs_residential/Chapter 10.pdf


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

That code is relegated to interior chimneys here FJN and in 1 town around here only the throat section(including smoke chamber smart asses) should be built 1" away from the sidewalls while the brick facade is butt up against it.


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

JBM said:


> That code is relegated to interior chimneys here FJN and in 1 town around here only the throat section(including smoke chamber smart asses) should be built 1" away from the sidewalls while the brick facade is butt up against it.





You are correct,two inches interior,one inch exterior. Either way,the chimney can not be in direct contact with combustibles.


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

JBM; Here is a brief article that does make the distinction you had previously mentioned regarding the one and two inch clearance.


By the way,the way I address the siding coming in contact with the chimney is to use a 5/4" piece of cement board trim,like the products by James Hardie. What do you fellas do to address that contact point ?




http://www.masonryconstruction.com/associations/code-clarifies-clearances-to-combustibles.aspx


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

My fireplaces dont work , I dont even have a flue, its capped off at the damper. All show no go.

Im with the govt. , I see what they want. People cannot have a way to burn wood to heat their house. 

We must protect the public from these dangerous fireplaces that are burning down millions of homes every year.


----------



## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

Went and looked at it, there was one there already, piece of cake again, tear down the old one and slap in a new one with new wall ties, footer is already in place. and no signs of movement.

The flue was crumbling and most of the block above the roofline was cracked, I would guess it's 40+ years old, he said it was old when they moved in.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Nice, I usually get some bats or even those red squirrels behind almost everyone of those for some odd reason.


----------



## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

I always get stupid pigeons for some reason, dead ones. They cram themselves in there and then get stuck and die or something.


----------



## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

fjn said:


> You are correct,two inches interior,one inch exterior. Either way,the chimney can not be in direct contact with combustibles.


It's the same thing here, and I even got called on it once by an inspector, at our cabin Up North............:whistling


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

While I know that it is code I have yet to see a chimney that doesn't have j trim butted up against it...unless there are bricks on the rest of the house. Generally i only see the framing and sheathing kept away the 1"/2"


----------



## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

dom-mas said:


> While I know that it is code I have yet to see a chimney that doesn't have j trim butted up against it...unless there are bricks on the rest of the house. Generally i only see the framing and sheathing kept away the 1"/2"


If you put brick or stone on the chimney with the required 1" cavity behind it, you're legal. In my scenario, I ran the 16" chimney block right tight to the sheathing, which a big "no-no".......


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

When I build decks around chimneys I'm required to keep framing 2" away from the outside. Always thought this was stupid, if it's going to get that hot we have a safety problem other then the deck.


----------



## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> When I build decks around chimneys I'm required to keep framing 2" away from the outside. Always thought this was stupid, if it's going to get that hot we have a safety problem other then the deck.


That is stupid.

Any chimney with a good flue in it should be cool enough to touch provided they are burning the stove properly.

If that thing is getting hot enough to ignite sheathing I doubt that extra 1" is gonna help.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

You have never seen the glowing red bricks? Oh it happens all the time.....bricks can literally spontaneously combust.

Imagine Carie but millions and millions of chimneys. Thats how bad it is. Be glad the govt. is there to keep everyone from purchasing a device to produce heat themselves, I mean be glad the govt. is there to keep us safe.


----------



## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

It was explained to me the the 2"is to guarantee that cool air can pass over the material if it heats up. As the chimney heats up, think chimney fire, it will warm the surrounding air causing it to rise drawing cooler air from below.


----------



## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

I once demolished a chimney coming out of a 1 1/2 story home. The home was on a crawlspace and the "footings were about 18" deep. 

This is Iowa. The base of the chimney was a platform which was supported by a couple of 2x4's 45'd into the wall. So it was completely bearing on an interior wall. From the base, it went up the first floor, through the second, and up through the attic and above the roof.

This is very common and you see this type of chimney in old garages as well. There were no ties connecting it to walls.

I guess this was a turn of the century home (1900).


----------



## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

I had another chimney which started in the basement of a two-story. It had a thimble there, and a thimble in the kitchen above and I put a thimble in an adjoining room and installed a wood burner.

I tore down the brick where it came out of the attic and re-laid it. It was an unlined brick chimney, soft brick. It was re-layed with hard brick and flashed, etc. 

I heated that house for 5 years with that woodburner and sold it. Once I was in the attic and noticed that the brickwork up there needed tucked. I think this is where an inspection is important, and the 2" clearance.

That chimney drew very well and I never had it cleaned. It was clean. I cleaned the flue pipe from the stove to the chimney twice a year. I always thought that a guy could ventilate the basement by opening the flue down there and letting some outside air come in. It was probably 40' high and from the basement it pulled hard enough to suck dust up.


----------



## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

Used to be people would build a masonry firebox with a ceramic lined chimney. The space between the flue and the brick was either hollow or somwhat filled with mortar droppings. Do people build chimneys like this anymore?

I remember tending for my dad when we put one up through an attic. It must have been August and it must have been 150 degrees in that attic. We had a big space opened up, but it was still hot.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Not much inside our chimneys except the partition walls they make us put in now. Plus some bricks to pin the flues here and there.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Anytime i rebuild a chimney that doesn't have a space between the flue and the brick there are bad problems. When there is a space, the flue liner is usually in good sahpe and so is most of the chimney, just replace the brik that have been damaged because of a bad cap


----------



## wazez (Oct 25, 2008)

We use these chimneys for most of our chimneys anymore. Liners will withstand a cutting torch. In my opinion its the only way to go for woodburners.
http://www.clickstoves.com/TOPEKA3/CHIMNEY_SYSTEMS.html


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

Golden Flue.. 

I have mentioned them before... Cast in place liner...

Even reinforces any masonry that may have voids...

THE ONLY U.L. tested and approved system.

http://goldenflue.com/products_homeowner.aspx


----------



## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

Californiadecks said:


> When I build decks around chimneys I'm required to keep framing 2" away from the outside. Always thought this was stupid, if it's going to get that hot we have a safety problem other then the deck.



The reason that the clearance is required, is that over time, heat from the chimney......heat way lower than you would expect....can change the chemical composition of the wood itself, so that over time, even fairly low heat can cause the wood to combust.

It's called Pyrolysis, and while many inspectors have never seen it, most are surely aware of it. Flue liners have helped in this regard, but if you assume that all masonry chimneys are built to an exacting standard, you'd likely be wrong......and with people putting wood stoves into their fireplaces, higher heat for longer periods of time is a reality.....

A house went up just this way about 20 years ago here, with an old house that didn't have the (now) required space.......thankfully, no one got hurt.

As with many parts of the code book, this was likely born in blood......or at least horrible disfigurement........2" of air is pretty cheap insurance.......


----------



## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

MAULEMALL said:


> Golden Flue..
> 
> I have mentioned them before... Cast in place liner...
> 
> ...



There sure is a lot of B.S. on that website!


----------



## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

cleveman said:


> I once demolished a chimney coming out of a 1 1/2 story home. The home was on a crawlspace and the "footings were about 18" deep.
> 
> This is Iowa. The base of the chimney was a platform which was supported by a couple of 2x4's 45'd into the wall. So it was completely bearing on an interior wall. From the base, it went up the first floor, through the second, and up through the attic and above the roof.
> 
> ...


I demo'd an house from 1840 last year and each bedroom upstairs had a hardwood box made from 2x6's on top of which was a block chimney going out through the roof, about 8-10 blocks on each. It was crazy, no flues either.


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

cleveman said:


> I always thought that a guy could ventilate the basement by opening the flue down there and letting some outside air come in. It was probably 40' high and from the basement it pulled hard enough to suck dust up.



In 1984 I rebuilt a chimney from 50 ft. up to 135 ft. on an old High School built in very early 1900's. The walls were 21inches thick with a fire brick used for the flue brick. The chimney was 11.5 ft. square and the flue was give or take an inch 8 ft. square. The boiler tied into the chimney at around 30 ft. There was a solid steel entry door about 2.5 ft. x 5 ft. at base of chimney. The draft was virtually unreal on that chimney,one guy had an absolute real hard time to pull the door open,it had a stout chain to fix it in the open position to an adjacent wall. If you let that door slam shut from the draft it shatter a 2"x 4" (we tried it) When you walked into that chimney it sucked your cap off and took it up about 10-15 ft. till it swirled around to the wall of the chimney and fell to floor ! By the way,it was a complete tear down from 135 ft. to 50 ft.,it took 4 semis and a six wheeler to get the sand to the job for mortar .


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

artisanstone said:


> There sure is a lot of B.S. on that website!


What BS are you speaking of...

And please be specific.


----------



## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

To begin with, I don't have a dog in this fight. The whole website just smacks of snake oil to me. I do wonder based on your private message, if you do have some stake...

THE ONLY U.L. tested and approved system.
This is not true based on website statements.

Also, 

"There are two main ingredients which make up the Golden Flue mix.



The first is Perlite/Silicate, a natural occurring siliceous volcanic rock. Perlite is refined to a certain point in quality, performance, and size to accommodate the Golden Flue requirements.



The second ingredient is the bonder; this holds the product together and provides strength, as well as bonding the mix to the inner wall of the chimney during installation. This bonder is white grade ASTM-C150-86 and/or AST-C Type 111 high-early Portland cement."

Does this sound ideal for the inside of a chimney?


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Maulmalls buddy Jimmy is the creator of that flue system.


----------



## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

I see...

Maule, no insult intended to your friend.


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Maulmalls buddy Jimmy is the creator of that flue system.


Yes I would like to think we were friends but to the point.. It Is the only UL tested and APPROVED cast in place liner.

If you know of another then please enlighten me.

It is ZERO tolerance at 1 1/2 inch thickness and was tested at the U L Laboratories' as such.
And Yes it is actually perfect for the inside of the Chimney.

if it weren't then why would so many Chimneys (Since the inception of masonry) used it?


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

artisanstone said:


> I see...
> 
> Maule, no insult intended to your friend.


I'm not offended.

Jimmy created the formula and it is proprietary so I can't go into actual formulations of the mix but I can assure you that he has done more than due diligence on all aspects of testing.




> The product was tested by five (5) separate testing laboratories. They are:
> 
> Arnold Green Testing Laboratories in 1986
> Underwriters Laboratories for the UL Listing in 1991
> ...


The guy is brilliant where chimneys are concerned.


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Maulmalls buddy Jimmy is the creator of that flue system.


Actually he didn't invent the system ... It's been used in England for decades...

The mix is what he invented.


Oh and a buttload of equipment to remove flues and pump material up to line chimneys.

http://goldenflue.com/products_installers.aspx


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I looked at a back to back fireplace that was built with just empty chambers that would be perfect for that system. Oh well, maybe ill get the rip and redo .


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

JBM said:


> I looked at a back to back fireplace that was built with just empty chambers that would be perfect for that system. Oh well, maybe ill get the rip and redo .


It's prime for that type of situation..
But I hope you get it. You do good work.


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

I feel like I need to Address this particular statement..


> To begin with, I don't have a dog in this fight. The whole website just smacks of snake oil to me. I do wonder based on your private message, if you do have some stake...


The site I posted is Golden Flues website and I have zero stake in it or in Golden flue or any of it's branch companies.
Truth be told I used to work for Jimmy as an installer but I haven't spoken to Jimmy for 5 years or so.

The guy is honest to a fault and a genuinely good person.

My PM to you was to find out what exactly you considered BS about it..

That's it... I am sure you didn't want to malign a person you don't know or a website that you felt the need to denigrate about a product you have zero Knowledge of.

Having said all this and posted all the testing sites and dates I will say un equivocally it is the absolute best cast in place system. BAR NONE.

If you can find one that has passed even half the tests or if it just has a Underwriters Lab sticker I will come to domm ass worksite and labor for him for a week singing Obama love songs with a smile on my face.


----------



## bytor (Jan 23, 2010)

Here's another system with UL listing... Could be identical for all I know.... www.supaflu.com
Get those golden tonsils warmed up! ( haha)


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

bytor said:


> Here's another system with UL listing... Could be identical for all I know.... www.supaflu.com
> Get those golden tonsils warmed up! ( haha)


I'm gargling with warm salt water .... 

I don't know what it's UL listing is for but I am going to email him for specifics..
And about his warranty.
I'll let you know what he says.

But the video is dead on and exactly how the process works.. 

Thanks for the Info.:thumbsup:

updated
I emailed their company and invited them to the conversation..


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

MAULEMALL said:


> I'm gargling with warm salt water .... I don't know what it's UL listing is for but I am going to email him for specifics.. And about his warranty. I'll let you know what he says. But the video is dead on and exactly how the process works.. Thanks for the Info.:thumbsup: updated I emailed their company and invited them to the conversation..


You don't know what I'd give to hear Obama love songs from ya, Maule, can we get a Video?


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> You don't know what I'd give to hear Obama love songs from ya, Maule, can we get a Video?


:wallbash:


----------



## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

The cast insitu method is quite popular here, and to be fair I know someone who had it done over 40 years ago without any problems.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

MAULEMALL said:


> If you can find one that has passed even half the tests or if it just has a Underwriters Lab sticker I will come to domm ass worksite and labor for him for a week singing Obama love songs with a smile on my face.


Not necessary...really. Oh and you spelled my name wrong, but maybe you're aware of that


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Not necessary...really. Oh and you spelled my name wrong, but maybe you're aware of that


Maybe it's not you he's talking about. It's a technicality that will get him out of some labor work.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Maybe


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Maybe it's not you he's talking about. It's a technicality that will get him out of some labor work.


Dommonnique Assmundy ... Old friend from when I was in the Corp....:whistling


I was in communication with Mr. Howes from Supaflu but they have a confidentiality notice and I am going to honor it...

This quote is from the email 


> Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this email message including attachments is confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and others who have been specifically authorized to receive it. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, unauthorized dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please delete immediately or if any problems occur with transmission, please notify me immediately by telephone. Thank you.


 
So until such time as Mr. Howes says it's ok to post our communication I won't..
I have invited Mr.Howes here to join the conversation because I think ,and this is my personal opinion ,That Both Cast in place systems are quite similar and are far and away superior to any other type reline system especially stainless steel liners.


----------



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Solid flue is also UL 1777 listed - been around awhile and derived from the Europeans like Stu said.

It's a good system, but not the only game in town with the rise of stainless systems.

http://www.solidflue.com/specific.htm


----------



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

MAULEMALL said:


> Dommonnique Assmundy ... Old friend from when I was in the Corp....:whistling
> 
> 
> I was in communication with Mr. Howes from Supaflu but they have a confidentiality notice and I am going to honor it...
> ...


And your experience with stainless is?... ever see a Rhino Rigid embedded with thermix or a nice smooth wall armor flex? Ever had to up size an existing solid flue? Now if you said aluminum, I would agree.

I'm not bashing cast in place systems, but their not the only game in town offering quality solutions for chimney venting and I certainly wouldn't bash stainless given the numerous options in alloy and strength.


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

superseal said:


> And your experience with stainless is?... ever see a Rhino Rigid embedded with thermix or a nice smooth wall armor flex? Ever had to up size an existing solid flue? Now if you said aluminum, I would agree.
> 
> I'm not bashing cast in place systems, but their not the only game in town offering quality solutions for chimney venting and I certainly wouldn't bash stainless given the numerous options in alloy and strength.


I Have installed stainless but the warranties are too conditional..
as long as you have 1 inch of mix between the inflated bladder and the brick or even wood for that matter, you can make the flue any size you like..
And unlike when you place a round steel tube into a square flue liner cast in place liners give the same inside diameter so you loose none of the original natural draw.

Then if you add in the structural strengthening of the chimney itself from cast in place I think it's a no brainer.

I don't put down stainless I just won't ever promote it.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

the "structural strengthening" is the part that I'm not keen on. A chimney shouldn't need structural strengthening and if it does it needs to be rebuilt because solidifying it won't do much more than keep rot together, and then when it comes time to rebuild it (and that time will come and fairly quickly) it will be a huge job and all that expense of the poured flue will be for nothing


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> the "structural strengthening" is the part that I'm not keen on. A chimney shouldn't need structural strengthening and if it does it needs to be rebuilt because solidifying it won't do much more than keep rot together, and then when it comes time to rebuild it (and that time will come and fairly quickly) it will be a huge job and all that expense of the poured flue will be for nothing


We did a LOT of historical work were it took away all instability and in actuality made it better than when first built.

No moisture , no freeze thaw, no heat to the brick or wood bricks locked in place from the inside...

To Many positives..


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

How do you gauge if a chimney is able to withstand the weight and internal pressure when pouring the insides? Would be a concern no?


----------



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

MAULEMALL said:


> I Have installed stainless but the warranties are too conditional..
> as long as you have 1 inch of mix between the inflated bladder and the brick or even wood for that matter, you can make the flue any size you like..
> And unlike when you place a round steel tube into a square flue liner cast in place liners give the same inside diameter so you loose none of the original natural draw.
> 
> ...


The re-line market in my area is focused on downsizing the flue anyway to meet efficiency standards/btu inputs on modern furnaces, burners, orphaned water heaters and alike. Round draws better anyway so that's a non issue in terms of retaining "natural draw" of square or rectangular flues. Actually improves draw and prevents the ominous condensing acid attack that over-sized flues suffer from.

Fireplace flues I handle a bit different, I'll squarize, ovalize, rectanglize or just use the appropriately sized round if possible. Think of it like a solid flue system except only my bladder is 316 or 304 and stays in place after the thermix is poured.


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

JBM said:


> How do you gauge if a chimney is able to withstand the weight and internal pressure when pouring the insides? Would be a concern no?


The hydrostatic pressure is taken into consideration and most of the time you don't need to support but on the times you do you can brace it inside and out.. We even wrapped some upper sections with clear cling film... The same stuff used to wrap pallets for shipping.


----------

