# yellow bar vs pointing sand and some general brick pointing questions



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> Superseal. I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that on occasion a portland mix might be acceptable (although I seem to remember you saying that you mixed it and let it sit for an hour or 2 then remixed which would seriously lessen the strength of the mix) but that is for someone with experience to decide. You have a few decades of masonry experience under your belt. You know when to use a mix and when not to and how to prepare it and what sand etc... A carpenter coming here and asking for us to expound on our knowledge so he can go out and make money is something different.
> 
> There have been quite a few guys who come here asking for advice so they can do the best job possible on their house. I have no problem with that, but someone who is unknowledgeable and could go out and do more damage than if they hadn't done anything, and to someone elses house, and charge for it and then to have no answers when the damage does occur, *that I have a problem with.*
> 
> Besides the fact that I'm with Tscar. What in heck is yellow bar sand?


Hey Dom, Maybe you should take the "charge for it" or "money" issue up with the OP instead of with me. The guy is from my area and I gave him a pretty full perspective of his question...no?... Isn't it what this forum is all about?

Never told him to use anything specific, did I? Nor, did I tell him it's the only way to do it,... just mentioned time honored, local techniques so he could be aware of what others in his area do in these situations.

In reading my post again, I see T's accurate advise honorary mention ,hence, no need to pick sides.,,,I see the words explode and destroy,...I see my preferred method spelled out and I also see my puke comment. This alone, should make anyone doing their 3D's,... (DO your own DUE DILIGENCE), aware of the red flags and controversy these type questions and topic create.

Plus Dom, we need job security in this country...if he screws up a few in his process, maybe I'll get the call to come back and fix'em :laughing:

In the meantime, I wish the OP well in his journey for knowledge and greatly respect his desire to learn new tricks and trades,...especially the paste over re-pointing market. It's not what most masons agree is relaxing and fun work. Most suck at it as well and the detrimental effect's of sloppy work can harm and devalue just as fast as mortar selection :thumbsup:

Oh BTW...The term bar sand is just local general sieved course masonry sand for use in brick and block work, stucco, stonework, stone pointing, etc...anything you don't want pebbles in. 

We got local whites, yellow/tans and brown . Yellow is the least expensive in that graduation and is most commonly used and sold. 

The three types my guy sells most of would be white beach, yellow bar and yellow concrete sand.


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## Pheasant89 (Apr 1, 2011)

dom-mas I wasnt being vague about what I am doing . I was asking a specific question for a specific kind of brick and asking an opinion. I am not an idiot and am a little talented with my hands, not that I am a mason by any means but I do my own block foundations for small additions.So I know I can handle some pointing and do a decent job.as far as your remark about the " yellow bar sand" sorry if you never heard about that before but it very common here in Philly, common sand for brick laying. It seems to be a problem with you because I am a carpenter you mentioned it 2 or 3 times whats the issue with it? dont get it. Is it against the law. the best stone mason i know is an top rate carpenter also. Superseal is from my area he knew what i was talking about and(obviously knowledgable mason) and threw a curve ball at you so in return you "thought ' you would de-mean me. WRONG. Simple question ,simple answer . Thank you Superseal.Is the forum to help people or to pound your chest of how good you are and how much the next doesnt know?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Pheasant, this is a worldwide forum. If you ask a question and reference local jargon, it is going to be hard for anyone to assist. That is why there is such a thing as ASTM in the first place. It allows a specification written by someone in Philly to be able to be met by someone in Austin.

Looking at those three sands, the first is what we locally call sugar sand, and is normally graded too fine to use for anything but glass block mortar (1/4" joints) or finish plaster. The middle one looks like C-144 masonry sand, ours is reddish tan locally. The third is concrete sand, bedding sand, torpedo sand, stucco sand, and a million other local names but anywhere in the world is ASTM C897, "Standard Specification for Aggregate for Job mixed Portland Cement based Plasters".

As to your specific question, Take Superseal's advice as he is local and a professional.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

superseal said:


> Hey Dom, Maybe you should take the "charge for it" or "money" issue up with the OP instead of with me. The guy is from my area and I gave him a pretty full perspective of his question...no?... Isn't it what this forum is all about?
> 
> .


I have no problem with anything that you wrote Super. I do have a problem with the OP and his charging for work that he isn't knowledgeable about. 

To the Op, You say you can lay block. What does that have to do with pointing? You asked what in my opinion is a silly question. What sand should I use. If I came to the carpentry section and asked "I'm framing a shed for a customer, should I use 3 1/2" nails or 2" nails." Would you just answer the question with no problem? You then mention using just portland as a cement cause that's what someone told you to do. So do you know what you are doing or are you just doing what someone told you to do? Every wall is different and if you can't look at the mortar and come up with a judgement of what mortar to use or what sand to use then I don't think you should be doing the work. Or do the work but call in someone who has knowledge and can tell you what mix to use

Pointing with the wrong materials has been damaging masonry walls for the last 50 years. Maybe it works in Philly, maybe not I have no idea. What I do know is that until 5 minutes ago I had no idea what yellow bar sand is, or pointing sand. And really it makes no difference to me because I would use whichever sand was appropriate for the situation.


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## Ohteah (Apr 3, 2013)

I am from the same area near Philly. I tend to use 3/1/1 for pointing. I am under the assumption lime adds some waterproofing capabilities. I am in agreement with the job dictates what morter to use. I like pointing sand over bar, locally. Not every yard around carries pointing sand or tries to give you pool sand and say it's pointing sand.
Superseal, I have "house pointed" my fair share of South Philly row homes. It's funny because it's the only time you ever use such a cement rich mix. It's the law of the land around here. People scoff at you when you suggest cutting out and repointing. How much is that gonna cost? Ok then we'll point over it.
Anyway this site is a little judgemental, just a little. So mr. carpenter, inbox me, give me a call. I'd be happy to get my hawk and slickers out and get on the wall.


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## Pheasant89 (Apr 1, 2011)

I just got home from work and read this and to tell you the truth I have to really just laugh. Not just winging it,if winging it I would have just went to Home Depot and bought bags of mortar mix. I am trying to put together different things and mixes that I have seen through the years that have been done locally. Sorry to tell you this dom-mas but the actual pointing part is the easy part for me. Sorry if that puts you over the edge that I can be a carpenter and also point also. Am I in the twilight zone.And YES also make money doing it (even from a referel). dom-mas you should really lose your attitude because its really not to cool , I sense frustration and jealousy . All this from me asking a question.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

A rough rule of thumb for repointing is to use almost the same mix as the existing, but a touch weaker.
This isn't always the case, as for example where the wrong mix was used in the build. 
I worked on a property on the seafront where the joints had worn back an inch in less than 10 years. When the mortar was analysed it was found to be about 15-1 in places. Obviously in this case a much stronger mix would be needed for the repoint.
This chart is our guide for building mortars, but different climates will probably need something else.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Pheasant89 said:


> I just got home from work and read this and to tell you the truth I have to really just laugh. Not just winging it,if winging it I would have just went to Home Depot and bought bags of mortar mix. I am trying to put together different things and mixes that I have seen through the years that have been done locally. Sorry to tell you this dom-mas but the actual pointing part is the easy part for me. Sorry if that puts you over the edge that I can be a carpenter and also point also. Am I in the twilight zone.And YES also make money doing it (even from a referel). dom-mas you should really lose your attitude because its really not to cool , I sense frustration and jealousy . All this from me asking a question.


You don't understand the point I've been trying to make. The pointing IS the easy part, anyone can do it, not everyone should do it. I don't care if you're a carpenter and want to do masonry. I just wish that you knew what you were doing before selling your services. I do some light carpentry work myself, so does Superseal, he does a lot of things and I have no problem with any of that. But it takes less than a paragraph of his writing to know that he knows what he's doing. 

I've asked you a few times. What kind of nails do you use? You won't answer but I'm sure if you did it would be it depends. And if you don't know why it depends and when to use one and not the other then you shouldn't be doing the work. Frustration, yes. Frustrated that someone looks at pointing and how easy it is and thinks there is nothing to it. Get some cement and some sand and go at it. Looks good when i get my cheque right? Jealous? Not sure what of?

Use the sand that is appropriate for the job, how is that for an answer? it's the best one you can put in your book


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

So here's my question, what the hell is bar sand?


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

I always assumed the term bar, was from the term sand bar like you would find in the ocean.


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## Gov contractor (Jan 19, 2013)

I had never heard this term either, until I worked In philly. The project called for brown bar sand. Everybody had yellow but I had to search for brown. The brown is very course and more like the Northeast areas concrete sand then mortar sand


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## Pheasant89 (Apr 1, 2011)

Number one maybe I didnt explain myself right. I have worked on probably over 100 plus homes brick pointing in my life since I was 15. My uncles were all bricklayers working for 2 major union outfits in the Philly area. And pointing was there (big weekend moonlighting work if not retaining walls all the brothers me and my cousin) which I would work with them every weekend but I liked carpentry better. I have also went partners with my last uncle on several pointing jobs before he stopped working all together at 78 a few years ago and also doing a few on my own. My question was the pointing sand which they did not use but I like better but mainly the mix. they always used 3-1 sand/portland so thats what i know . I am 48 and looking back at some houses done 30 years ago they are still in good shape. But recently everybody says that mix is no good too strong etc ,etc so I was just getting opinions. I have not a doubt in my mind my job is a professional job, quality and appearence. I also like to run the grinder over everything.Like I said only 1 type of pointing I am looking at , not stone ,historic brick etc.although I did work on that stuff too but would not feel confident or enjoy it. I am extremely busy with additions and kitchens . This is something I just like to do if it falls into place. Also from reading others post I wasn't wrong after the mix used around here after all. So again dom-mas I didnt say I was jumping into the masonry bus. just one aspect plus a little block work which I do which does get inspected by BI if your worried.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Sorry, didn't see the bar sand description. 
Around here we have Mason Sand, I'm guessing it's 1/8" minus.
Then Concrete Sand /Manufactured Sand /Washed Sand. Has some pebbles I'm guessing are around 3/16".
What I thought Bar Sand was is something we would call Bank Run. Right out of the ground, not washed. I'm sure it's full of fines, but until they had screening plants it's all they used. Most still standing.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Look, sorry to have come down hard, it wasn't my intention. I just don't like it when people do work that they aren't familiar with, get paid to do it and don't have any answers for the HO when it goes bad down the road. I'm not saying this is you but the question asked mad it sound like you had no experience whatsoever and were just doing what you heard someone say to do. If your uncle has had success with something and can look back at work that he has done 50 years ago and the bricks are still in good shape, do what he did. 

Masonry, is very peculiar to a geographic location. What works in Philly does NOT work here, I know that for sure. Even new brick pointed with a 3:1:12 which is a below grade structural type M mix, will blow apart in less than 10 years here, what sand you use will make no difference.

For the work you're doing I don't think the type of sand you use will have a huge effect on the overall outcome. The only rule I would go by is don't use a sand that you can't get at least 2 grains into a joint.


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