# NYC Carpenters to make $200,000 a year.



## Heritage

By Steve Payne - Canadian Contractor Magazine

The Big Apple is a pretty good place to be a carpenter. At least, if you’re a member of the New York City District Council of Carpenters union. After a year without a contract, last week the union hammered out a five-year agreement with one of its major employers, the Association of Wall-Ceiling and Carpentry Industries. Under the terms of the deal, union carpenters will make nearly $100 per hour and over $200,000 in wages and benefits by 2017.

Currently the carpenters in the union are making $85.03 per hour: about $46 per hour in wages and $39 in benefits, including medical coverage and pensions. The new agreement will see their compensation increase by almost 17 per cent over the next five years, to $99.16 per hour.

The union, which has some 25,000 members, also obtained a guarantee that a union member would be hired for every non-member carpenter put on a job. The union says that will create 1,000 new union jobs a year.

LINK HERE


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## Leo G

Not much will be getting done in NYC this year I'm guessing.


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## Jaws

Pretty good pay....


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## Sar-Con

That's a huge increase over 5 years. On top of an already large salary no less(my estimate puts Toronto carpenters around $58.00/hr)Is this a sign of rampant inflation coming soon? 

I'd like to know how the union guarantees "that a union member would be hired for every non-member carpenter put on a job" Does that involve hiring Knuckles?

Also, are they implying that there's 25,000 union carpenters and only 1,000 non union carpenters in NYC? 

This story leaves more questions than answers....


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## duburban

Sar-Con said:


> That's a huge increase over 5 years. On top of an already large salary no less(my estimate puts Toronto carpenters around $58.00/hr)Is this a sign of rampant inflation coming soon?
> 
> I'd like to know how the union guarantees "that a union member would be hired for every non-member carpenter put on a job" Does that involve hiring Knuckles?
> 
> Also, are they implying that there's 25,000 union carpenters and only 1,000 non union carpenters in NYC?
> 
> This story leaves more questions than answers....



look into that for me, i'm sitting in class wondering why i'm investing my time here...


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## VinylHanger

Sar-Con said:


> That's a huge increase over 5 years. On top of an already large salary no less(my estimate puts Toronto carpenters around $58.00/hr)Is this a sign of rampant inflation coming soon?
> 
> I'd like to know how the union guarantees "that a union member would be hired for every non-member carpenter put on a job" Does that involve hiring Knuckles?
> 
> Also, are they implying that there's 25,000 union carpenters and only 1,000 non union carpenters in NYC?
> 
> This story leaves more questions than answers....


That's how the union works. Don't question it, just go along.


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## Eaglei

Sounds like alot but the cost of living in the big apple is very expensive . Try buying a house with that income :no: Wage increases dont come close to the cost of inflation in NYC.


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## Tom M

Big difference in union/non union. Im getting under bid like crazy by guys operating a business and salary at 40/hr + 10% or less. Its a race to the bottom.

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20120823/LABOR_UNIONS/120829948


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## s.kelly

Misread, not exactly what I thought.


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## J L

Who'd a thought a carpenter could actually make money. I thought we all just did this because we enjoy it :whistling


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## FramingPro

here is about $48/hr with benefits


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## TimNJ

Good for them.


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## Sar-Con

FramingPro said:


> here is about $48/hr with benefits


It's a little higher then that when you account for what your employer is paying. EI,CPP, Dalton's Health Premium and WCIB.


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## Rockmonster

Many years ago, early 80s, I was running a job in AZ.........I was up in Flagstaff with a crew of maybe 6 brickies.......the business agent had come by and shown us our new agreement.......at the time I think it was like $14.70 and I got another 20% as foreman, something like that. Anyway, the new agreement went out like 5 years, and had really nice increases, going from the 14.70 up like 16.50 on July 1st, and up to 20-21 in a few years. Everybody was happy with that, but this was AZ, a right to work state. When July 1 came, every union mason contractor except maybe 1, backed out........no contract. We went on strike, and closed down a sewage treatment plant, maybe 100 workers total. This went on a few days, THEN something happened behind closed doors, we could only picket from 4 pm to 6am.....all the other trades went back to work. We got skinned. Almost overnight the wages dropped to the non-union average of about 10 bucks.......and I don't think the union ever recovered there...........it still exists, but I think the bricklayers are only NOW making in the low 20s, 30 some years later. I know there's a lot of anti union sentiment here on CT, but I'm not one of them........they do act as one line of defense against that race to the bottom.......


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## WilsonRMDL

Works great for the BA's, not so much for the carpenters who will have a hard time finding work when half the union employers go non-union.

I can't imagine how much bids will go up now to cover those wages


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## Gary H

Rockmonster said:


> Many years ago, early 80s, I was running a job in AZ.........I was up in Flagstaff with a crew of maybe 6 brickies.......the business agent had come by and shown us our new agreement.......at the time I think it was like $14.70 and I got another 20% as foreman, something like that. Anyway, the new agreement went out like 5 years, and had really nice increases, going from the 14.70 up like 16.50 on July 1st, and up to 20-21 in a few years. Everybody was happy with that, but this was AZ, a right to work state. When July 1 came, every union mason contractor except maybe 1, backed out........no contract. We went on strike, and closed down a sewage treatment plant, maybe 100 workers total. This went on a few days, THEN something happened behind closed doors, we could only picket from 4 pm to 6am.....all the other trades went back to work. We got skinned. Almost overnight the wages dropped to the non-union average of about 10 bucks.......and I don't think the union ever recovered there...........it still exists, but I think the bricklayers are only NOW making in the low 20s, 30 some years later. I know there's a lot of anti union sentiment here on CT, but I'm not one of them........they do act as one line of defense against that race to the bottom.......


I remember back in the 90's , labors went on strike for 5 cents more per hour. I was a second year carpenter and got layed off for 8 weeks because of it. The union can promise anything you want them to, but try and get them to back up that promise. BA's and higher memebers will always enrich themselves before the tradesman who is paying monthy and weekly dues to support the higher ups.


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## Gary H

One more thing I dont understand about union backdoor deals. Saginaw scale is about $5 or so less then Detroit scale. Ok. Now why is it when we used to work in Detroit, we got paid Saginaw scale? Call the detroit BA and he said once that your company signed a agreement with Detroit to pay all trades the lower scale. I thought that they would fight tooth and nail to give us the higher pay rate. But no.

So really what is the purpose of the wages requirements, if GC,s can skirt the rules?


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## TheItalian204

Screw unions pls...union nevet put difference between me and joe blow...even though i would through extra 400 bricks a day...they can really sck it...i really dont care if joe blow has three kids...i just wanna get paid more cuz i do better work


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## Rockmonster

TheItalian204 said:


> Screw unions pls...union nevet put difference between me and joe blow...even though i would through extra 400 bricks a day...they can really sck it...i really dont care if joe blow has three kids...i just wanna get paid more cuz i do better work


It's not all so simple. My father ran a union shop when I was young. If he needed 18 brickies for a job....BAM, they would be there. He would keep the best or brightest going year round, and hire/lay off when needed. Try finding 18 brickies in 3 days for a non union job........You'd have to scour 12 bars, 3 rehab facilities, and talk to half a dozen parole officers to get that kind of help.....

Plus the fact that these guys had health care, a pension, annuity.......it wasn't a bad gig. How many of your guys do you offer that to?

I have worked extensively both sides, and I would/could never say one is way better than the other........for guys that can really get it, non union is great-but there is not much of a safety net......plus when the economy stinks, some chumps give it away in that terrible race to the bottom........


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## TNTRenovate

Rockmonster said:


> It's not all so simple. My father ran a union shop when I was young. If he needed 18 brickies for a job....BAM, they would be there. He would keep the best or brightest going year round, and hire/lay off when needed. Try finding 18 brickies in 3 days for a non union job........You'd have to scour 12 bars, 3 rehab facilities, and talk to half a dozen parole officers to get that kind of help.....
> 
> Plus the fact that these guys had health care, a pension, annuity.......it wasn't a bad gig. How many of your guys do you offer that to?
> 
> I have worked extensively both sides, and I would/could never say one is way better than the other........for guys that can really get it, non union is great-but there is not much of a safety net......plus when the economy stinks, some chumps give it away in that terrible race to the bottom........


It's not like everyone on the books is working. And it's not like Union guys aren't doing off the books work. Give me a break. Union guys are some of the worst about side work and undercutting legit non union outfits.

The market has to dictate wages, not a system. An artificial raise only produces inflation in the long run. It doesn't matter what you pay if the market cannot support it, it won't.

Minimum wage is a perfect example.


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## ohiohomedoctor

http://hotpads.com/search/city/NY/New_York?header=false&noFooter=true&emptyType=true

This says median rent is $646. :laughing:

The 200k is cash and bennys. So figure 100k cash, 65k take home, take gas out and you get about a 1k a week. When a nice family home goes for about 6k a month downtown, you had better find side work or get a slum apartment in Brooklyn. Id say these fellas are going to need another raise badly by the end of 2017.


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## Chris Johnson

I have had the union visit my site a few times this year, I've talked to the rep, I have 2 guys who work for me that came from the union. I even pulled everyone in to my office, started the meeting for them to discuss if they wanted it and I left the room for them to talk freely amongst themselves.

The consensus was...no, they didn't want it. 

I don't offer benefits, it was discussed and only 1 guy wanted it, but everyone else had theirs taken care of. With the exception of my laborers, the wages I pay are higher then the unions, enough to justify the cost of benefits, not a golden parachute package but enough that most people would be happy with.

I have a friend who was literally forced to join the union, he did the wrong thing (in my opinion) with his attitude and demeanor towards them, they didn't damage his vehicles or projects, the called him into the ministry of labor, (OHSA for my US friends). When the MOL comes to the job site they like any audit need to justify their existence, so when you get tickets for little things that should normally be a warning or not even mentioned...you know you pissed someone off. And I'm talking about things like the sweatband on a hard hat being worn out, the little plastic caps on the valve stem of the forklift tires was missing!!!


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## Stephen H

ohiohomedoctor said:


> http://hotpads.com/search/city/NY/New_York?header=false&noFooter=true&emptyType=true
> 
> This says median rent is $646. :laughing:
> 
> The 200k is cash and bennys. So figured 100k cash, 65k take home, take gas out and you get about a 1k a week. When a nice family home goes for about 6k a month downtown, you had better find side work or get a slum apartment in Brooklyn. Id say these fellas are going to need another raise badly by the end of 2017.


 clicking on that site you provided lists the median HOUSING rental as $2860-and I wonder if $2860 get's you into the sort of enviornment you and I probably take for granted?
even here $646 doesn't rent a very nice place- I am kind of afraid to even think about what sort of place $646 rents in NYC, LOL
stephen


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## ohiohomedoctor

Stephen H said:


> clicking on that site you provided lists the median HOUSING rental as $2860-and I wonder if $2860 get's you into the sort of enviornment you and I probably take for granted?
> even here $646 doesn't rent a very nice place- I am kind of afraid to even think about what sort of place $646 rents in NYC, LOL
> stephen


Hence the :laughing: after the link. $646 covers an efficiency in the ghetto.


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## Rockmonster

> _I don't disagree with bank bailouts._ Hell the gov't is the reason they were in the trouble they were in. High risk loans...mandated or else. The industry did what it had to do to stay alive playing by the gov't regulations. When they began to fall, the gov't should have helped them out. The problem that I had was the gov't chose who would and who wouldn't get the help. I have a problem with the gov't saying GM was too big to fail.


You're all over the map here........Another reason you should watch that......


> And I am sure that this show you want me to watch has no bias? I can watch several shows about how the twin towers were brought down by controlled explosives, but I saw the darn planes hit the building. Free markets work. Show me where gov't regulation ever stimulated an industry. In the end it only leads to more regulation and gov't control. It kills the market when gov't gets involved.


Watching the most in depth study of the fiscal crisis, and comparing it to some wacky theory.........WAY OFF. It's not about regulation _stimulating_ an industry, but keeping it *transparent*. And many of these complex instruments, like credit default swaps, were barely understood by many in the business, so leaving them unregulated was just f***ing crazy. 

And let's look at what is probably the most _heavily regulated_ industry in the country......insurance. And why? Well, if a tornado touches down and wipes out your house, you would probably like to know that your premiums were not being bet every day on complex derivatives that few understand. You want to rebuild your house, you want that money to have been invested prudently. 

A 'free market' needs transparency _more than anything_.......if you're at the track, and a horse has a broken rib, you'd want to know that. And if my 401k is heavily invested in 'junk' securities that are being pitched and backed up as grade A, I would want to know, wouldn't you? And if the ones pitching it are betting _against_ it, I'd like to know that too........


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## J L

Rockmonster said:


> And let's look at what is probably the most _heavily regulated_ industry in the country......insurance. And why? Well, if a tornado touches down and wipes out your house, you would probably like to know that your premiums were not being bet every day on complex derivatives that few understand. You want to rebuild your house, you want that money to have been invested prudently.


Have you noticed your insurance premiums rising - primarily on homeowners insurance? It's because a few years ago, they were investing the profits in those crazy credit default swap schemes (among other investments) and they lost their shirt. The rates are rising so we can pay for their losses and get them operating in the black again. WTF


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## Leo G

Regulation is not transparency. It just muddies the water. Truthful reports of what occurs is where transparency comes from. But with just about any gov agency there is no whole truth. If there was the outrage of how the agencies were run would run amok. They hide things from us because they know what they are doing is wrong and would be disapproved of.


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## TNTRenovate

Rockmonster said:


> You're all over the map here........Another reason you should watch that......
> 
> 
> Watching the most in depth study of the fiscal crisis, and comparing it to some wacky theory.........WAY OFF. It's not about regulation _stimulating_ an industry, but keeping it *transparent*. And many of these complex instruments, like credit default swaps, were barely understood by many in the business, so leaving them unregulated was just f***ing crazy.
> 
> And let's look at what is probably the most _heavily regulated_ industry in the country......insurance. And why? Well, if a tornado touches down and wipes out your house, you would probably like to know that your premiums were not being bet every day on complex derivatives that few understand. You want to rebuild your house, you want that money to have been invested prudently.
> 
> A 'free market' needs transparency _more than anything_.......if you're at the track, and a horse has a broken rib, you'd want to know that. And if my 401k is heavily invested in 'junk' securities that are being pitched and backed up as grade A, I would want to know, wouldn't you? And if the ones pitching it are betting _against_ it, I'd like to know that too........


I am not all over the map. I don't agree with bailouts. That's pretty straight forward. However when in this instance the guys who go them into the mess needed to help get them out. We also agree that transparency is key. Why give them to one company and not another.

Your last analogy is just bad. It's easy and basic to understand that anything with a broken anything isn't going to do well in a race. However 90% of people who have 401K's no little to nothing about their investment let alone how the markets work. That is why we hire professionals. The biggest problem again lies in gov't not in the market. A FREE market isn't FREE when it is over regulated. Obviously I am not advocating a completely unregulated market, it just doesn't have to be over regulated.

The reason we had the housing market crash lies solely in the shoulders of the legislators. They strong armed institutions into making high risk loans or else. That made it a sellers market. We had a lot of buyers, who 5 years ago would have been laughed out of the bank, with no/low interest loans and not enough houses. House prices went up (supply and demand) and we were off. Giving loans to people who would never be able to live up to the commitment. POP! and the rest is history.

I hire an investment firm, just like I would hire a lawyer. I don't know the in's and out's of a court room and I don't know the in's and out's of the stock market.

But we are way off topic. The topic was ridiculous wages for NY union carpenters not the stock market. My feeling still remains the same and that organized labor is no longer needed to ensure safety and fair wages in the work place. They are solely a political machine and care nothing about this nation or what kind of damage they do to what ever industry they invade. Just look at what happened in Wisconsin with the teachers unions. And I know that there are difference in public and private unions, but the principles remain the same.


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## TNTRenovate

RemodelGA said:


> Have you noticed your insurance premiums rising - primarily on homeowners insurance? It's because a few years ago, they were investing the profits in those crazy credit default swap schemes (among other investments) and they lost their shirt. The rates are rising so we can pay for their losses and get them operating in the black again. WTF


That's not entirely accurate, while that played a part, the largest factor was the rise in claims. During tough economic times claims increase. And there are several factors as to why they increase.

But its also a little naive to think that the insurance companies make theri money on the premiums they are bringing in. They invest the money to make money. They invest the money to be able to make needed payouts. Take car insurance for one for every $1 they take in for premiums they pay out $1.40. 

I also think it's a bit hypocritical that no one complains about their practices when their premiums go down or stay the same when others go up.


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## CO762

Eaglei said:


> Sounds like alot but the cost of living in the big apple is very expensive . Try buying a house with that income :no:


so because of the high cost of getting a house built/remodeled in union/democrat ran nyc, the union construction workers need to be paid more so they can afford to buy those expensive houses they live in...that they built at such inflated wages? 

I think I'm missing something. 
How does this compare with, say houston? Atlanta? Omaha? etc.
Don't they have rent control also in nyc?



> Wage increases dont come close to the cost of inflation in NYC.


The rate of inflation in the US is what again? 
And why is nyc higher than, say baltimore? Dallas? Denver?

It seems to me a better comparison is nyc and california.
Why are houses so expensive in california?

Or why are people fleeing california and ny at record rates?
Me thinketh therein lies the answers....


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## Leo G

CO762 said:


> so because of the high cost of getting a house built/remodeled in union/democrat ran nyc, the union construction workers need to be paid more so they can afford to buy those expensive houses they live in...that they built at such inflated wages?


Stop trying to use logic when it comes to unions or democrats:whistling


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## CO762

RemodelGA said:


> Have you noticed your insurance premiums rising - primarily on homeowners insurance? It's because a few years ago, they were investing....


In anything and everything every other "rich corporation" or "big bank" or whatever else "wall street" was selling as retirement/investment instruments. 

The govt guaranteed the safe returns of money invested in real estate, so the real estate market was once again, a no lose proposition for everyone but the taxpayers. The "investment banks" bought an obamaload of mortgaged backed securities (fannie mae), then sold them to others. It's the bigger fool principle--buy it to sell it to a bigger fool later and you'll be OK. And with the us govt (taxpayers) guaranteeing everything, why not? 
"Privatize the profits, socialize the costs".

Insurance is little more than investment banks. The investment banks of "wall street" (if they were connected to the ****** in DC) got their bailouts (goldman sachs, aig, etc.), but the non wall street connected types didn't get any obama cash, so when they took their hits (from a lot of direct and indirect causes), where do they go to get their rate of return of their investments? They market was corrupt and trashed...and they ain't GMs uAw union, so they can't just get government checks. They get it from their consumers....the people that (have to) consume their product (insurance).

But that's OK, they will just raise their premiums, increase what all of us have to pay.

Good thing that doesn't happen when government needs more money....no one has to pay more there. OK.....'other people' will... them! Those people!!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Tiger

I looked at NYC real estate looking for a typical family home, 3BR, 2 bath, 1 car garage and yard:
*
3BR/2BA Single Family House - Bronx
AMAZING 1 FAMILY HOME IN THE HEART OF SOUNDVIEW!! A MUST SEE!FEATURING A BRICK HOUSE!! This House is HUGE!!*

Huge is 1722 square feet, built in 1940 with a 2200 square foot lot size which means there is about 300 square feet of yard, in this case concrete. The picture shows a kitchen with five cabinets excluding the one over the sink and refrigerator. The price is $350,000.


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## Acres

> Huge is 1722 square feet, built in 1940 with a 2200 square foot lot size which means there is about 300 square feet of yard, in this case concrete. The picture shows a kitchen with five cabinets excluding the one over the sink and refrigerator. The price is $350,000.



Huh, Now I don't think thats to bad. depending on condition be 290ish around here (cape cod), obv a larger yard though. Bet boston would be about the same.


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## NHCremodeling

Tiger said:


> I looked at NYC real estate looking for a typical family home, 3BR, 2 bath, 1 car garage and yard:
> *
> 3BR/2BA Single Family House - Bronx
> AMAZING 1 FAMILY HOME IN THE HEART OF SOUNDVIEW!! A MUST SEE!FEATURING A BRICK HOUSE!! This House is HUGE!!*
> 
> Huge is 1722 square feet, built in 1940 with a 2200 square foot lot size which means there is about 300 square feet of yard, in this case concrete. The picture shows a kitchen with five cabinets excluding the one over the sink and refrigerator. The price is $350,000.


Soundview? Really?

You wouldn't last a week there. :gun_bandana:


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## NHCremodeling

Acres said:


> Huh, Now I don't think thats to bad. depending on condition be 290ish around here (cape cod), obv a larger yard though. Bet boston would be about the same.


Comparing Cape Cod to the crime infested, 50% poverty rate, I wouldn't drive through there unless I could do it at 100mph without stopping for lights shiat hole that is soundview....well, not really a fair comparison! :no:

I'm familiar with Boston, but I can't think of a neighborhood there that would compare with soundview either.

There are places in NYC that you just don't go through, let alone think of living there. 

And as far as what housing costs, more than any other place in the world, in the NYC area you are paying for the land the house sits on, not the building.


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## Acres

> FAMILY HOME IN THE _HEART_ OF SOUNDVIEW!! _A MUST SEE_!


Damn those agents, it makes it sound like water turns to wine there and women run around topless. Duelly noted never go to soundview..


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## Resta

In order to receive medical benefits from the unions need to work out a certain number of hours per year, usually 1200 hours ... no hours - no med. benefits.... 
Half of the union workers do not have the work through unions. They are only on the waiting list. The work from the union hall gets out there depending on who is knowing who and who is relative of relative ... and other part of them gets 10$/h less than the union rate .... 
So this is not as beautiful as it looks on the paper.
Laundry..


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## Warren

TNTSERVICES said:


> That's not entirely accurate, while that played a part, the largest factor was the rise in claims. During tough economic times claims increase. And there are several factors as to why they increase.
> 
> But its also a little naive to think that the insurance companies make theri money on the premiums they are bringing in. They invest the money to make money. They invest the money to be able to make needed payouts. Take car insurance for one for every $1 they take in for premiums they pay out $1.40.
> 
> I also think it's a bit hypocritical that no one complains about their practices when their premiums go down or stay the same when others go up.



Can you explain this to me? Sounds like faulty math, but I know there is more to it. If their investments are making up the difference, then why sell anymore insurance at all?


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## GO Remodeling

If you work in a Right to Work state do you get better pay than in a unionized state? The data is conflicting. Adjusting for cost of living and taxes, some studies say the non-union state has higher wages. Other studies say it's the opposite. My view is the prevailing wage of the union worker is a starting point for non-union employees. So I think it helps keep wages up.


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## CO762

Resta said:


> union workers...They are only on the waiting list. The work from the union hall gets out there depending on who is knowing who and who is relative of relative


:thumbsup:
"who ya know or who ya blow" 
Go sit on a bench and wait for your name to be called......not. 



> Laundry..


all done...behind closed doors.


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## CO762

olzo55 said:


> If you work in a Right to Work state do you get better pay than in a unionized state? The data is conflicting.


It would be interesting to see federal (our collective) dollars in vs local expenditures. The govt fuzzes up numbers so things cannot be tracked. A good example is "community development block grants" given to states. It's a lump sum of our money given to individual states to spend how they see fit. That means there's no way to see how that money is spent, so no one can track any jobs created by federal (us) spending. 

But these CDBGs have serious repercussions. If a states governance is in the graces of that far off governors in dc, that state can get a lot of money to dole out as it sees fit--all coming from outside of their state (most of it). 

So if it's a "right to work" state, they will receive less CBDG monies for their "community development" than, say....chicago or detroit.....

Government does what it always has done and does best---distorts and screws up the economy.


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## TNTRenovate

Warren said:


> Can you explain this to me? Sounds like faulty math, but I know there is more to it. If their investments are making up the difference, then why sell anymore insurance at all?


If your bills a paid, why do you seek more work?


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## donerightwyo

TNTSERVICES said:


> If your bills a paid, why do you seek more work?


Man, I'm with warren, your off your rocker.


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## Warren

TNTSERVICES said:


> If your bills a paid, why do you seek more work?


I don't intentionally take work that is guaranteed to cost me money.


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## TNTRenovate

Warren said:


> I don't intentionally take work that is guaranteed to cost me money.


So you have never heard of a loss leader? Just because you wouldn't do it, doesn't mean that it's not done. Why do people think so small minded?

First of all you cannot compare construction to insurance, mistake #1.

Second it's done all the time in various industries. One being retail, especially grocery stores. They will sell you things at below cost to get you in the door.

"A *loss leader*, or simply a *leader*,[1] is a product sold at a low price, at or below its market cost[2] to stimulate other sales of more profitable goods or services. Using a loss leader, often a very popular good or service, is a type of sales promotion—a marketing strategy that focuses on pricing strategy. Sometimes "leader" is used as a related term and can mean any popular article, i.e., one sold at a normal price."

And no I am not off my rocker, just make a phone call and ask your insurance agent if they are making money on your car insurance. Also call you bank and find out if they are making any money off of your personal checking? The simple fact is even with any interest they make it doesn't cover the costs of pretty much any personal checking accounts.


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## summithomeinc

TNTSERVICES said:


> So you have never heard of a loss leader? Just because you wouldn't do it, doesn't mean that it's not done. Why do people think so small minded?


Just curious, Do you have a "loss leader"? What do you do?


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## TNTRenovate

summithomeinc said:


> Just curious, Do you have a "loss leader"? What do you do?


Not intentionally. :laughing:


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## summithomeinc

TNTSERVICES said:


> Not intentionally. :laughing:


You're off your rocker..:laughing::laughing:


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## Leo G

A lot of construction sales are 1 time deals. You sell them something and never hear from them again. Just the nature of the business. Unless they are talking about doing a bunch of different projects I don't see taking low dollar to get the job unless you are desperate for work and can't take the chance of losing the job.


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## Eaglei

$200ks where N.Y.C. ??? No carpenter in N.Y.C. makes $200ks a year . Maybe the OP should do his homework before posting such a statement . More like $75k plus benefits wow !!! Why all the bashing ? You guys should be proud that your trade makes a respectable wage . Is it the unions you dont like ? Unions work in N.Y.C. Its a union town .Every major occupation here is union. No Walmarts here . Im not saying unions work everywhere but they do here. N.Y.C. sets the standards for the rest of the country . Every working person deserves medical benefits . Without benefits your treated like an illegal immigrant , try going to the hospital . So why all the fuss ?? You cant even rent a basement appt for less than $1g .Tolls on bridges and tunnels gas prices , taxes , parking . Im not a union guy so to speak but if your not union in N.Y.C. your not going to make it . Union guys arent greedy for doing side jobs , but its necessary to make ends meet , so why bash a guy whos willing to bust his a$$ to get ahead for the benefit of his family ?? Most if not all union work is in the city , commercial projects . Guys doing side work are doing small projects in residential areas . Also there was a poster who stated something as to why would someone hire union carpenters because of the expense. I can answer that ,for one you have to be an apprentice for a few years and learn from teachers that are qualified and have many years experience to learn from. Then you become a carpenter. Or would you like to hire a company that employes ILLEGAL immigrants that never learned the right way to become a carpenter, or for that matter a tradesman.The OP posted this post because maybe he thought N.Y.C. carpenters were over paid . Is it ok that the rest of the countries carpenters are under paid ??? :no:


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## TNTRenovate

Eaglei said:


> Also there was a poster who stated something as to why would someone hire union carpenters because of the expense. I can answer that ,for one you have to be an apprentice for a few years and learn from teachers that are qualified and have many years experience to learn from. Then you become a carpenter.


I am only going to say this once, BS! I know many many guys who skipped over their apprenticeship (without the experience), and got paid top wages. In fact one of the guys that works for me was back-doored into the union for a small fee. Sell this BS to someone who doesn't know any better.


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## Warren

Ok, I get the whole " loss leader " thing. But are you saying that they don't make any money on premiums ever? I could see if they just hooked you up first year with a very low teaser rate only to jack rates up later, but if they can't cover payouts with the money from premiums, then why take any more customers? Wouldn't you just stop issuing policies and continue to collect on your investments?


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## TNTRenovate

Warren said:


> Ok, I get the whole " loss leader " thing. But are you saying that they don't make any money on premiums ever? I could see if they just hooked you up first year with a very low teaser rate only to jack rates up later, but if they can't cover payouts with the money from premiums, then why take any more customers? Wouldn't you just stop issuing policies and continue to collect on your investments?


Correct on car insurance. The reason I said this was I just had a conversation with my insurance guy last week about this very subject. And jacking up the rates is illegal as a marketing promotion. They base their rates on very specific matrices. As far as their business model beyond that I am not sure exactly how they make their money on car insurance, but I have never seen an insurance company only offer car insurance.


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## Resta

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am only going to say this once, BS! I know many many guys who skipped over their apprenticeship (without the experience), and got paid top wages. In fact almost everyone of the guys that works for union was back-doored into the union for a small minimum 2 weeks salary fee. Sell this BS to someone who doesn't know any better.


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## Eaglei

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am only going to say this once, BS! I know many many guys who skipped over their apprenticeship (without the experience), and got paid top wages. In fact one of the guys that works for me was back-doored into the union for a small fee. Sell this BS to someone who doesn't know any better.


Im only going to say this once , you got alot to learn kid !!!!!


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## TNTRenovate

Eaglei said:


> Im only going to say this once , you got alot to learn kid !!!!!


That's really your response? :laughing: Sounds like I know more about this than you. :whistling


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## TNTRenovate

If you want to talk to the guy that works for me or a few other of my close friends who were once "union". I can start your education.


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## Texas Wax

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am only going to say this once, BS! I know many many guys who skipped over their apprenticeship (without the experience), and got paid top wages. In fact one of the guys that works for me was back-doored into the union for a small fee. Sell this BS to someone who doesn't know any better.


LOL I was offered-had it explained to me back in '87 or so.... $500 and a reference from this dude - Journeymans card. LOL My Irish Catholic Union democrat grandfather would have crapped his pants had I told him that. Probably would have had come close to calling me a lair too. Forever, I mean forever changed my view of 'Union' anything. LOL the unions are all about hoenesty and fairness


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## GO Remodeling

Are we going to burn this thread down, too? Too many personal gotchas and calling "B.S."

There are guys retired with good pensions from the union. And they have some very good skills. They dealt with the same B.S. as employees that work for Fortune 500 companies. They earned it just like other professions. 

Not everything is good, either. Yes guys bought cards. And some didn't have skills. And that giant rat and intimidation have no place in the workplace. You shouldn't be blackmailed into choosing union/non-union.

I can see both sides but still think, in general, the union has helped maintain wages.


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## dom-mas

SmallTownGuy said:


> No thanks, don't need the xtra capacity & butt-bustin' ride.. Hard to beat the reliabilty of a late model GM or Ford drivetrain, and sheetmetal is just sheetmetal. I've done this stuff before & this thing is gonna happen.


Ha, love the ease of repairs of my square body, but it is a rough ride. But if you want the modern drive train you need computers. I love my mechanically injected/ no computer truck


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## 91782

dom-mas said:


> Ha, love the ease of repairs of my square body, but it is a rough ride. But if you want the modern drive train you need computers. I love my mechanically injected/ no computer truck


I am sure your ride is great & had some when they were new. But, there are engine only, chippable 'puters out there, and nowadays, so much aftermarket hardware the only thing left is the commitment to make it happen.

Just something I gotta do.


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## dom-mas

SmallTownGuy said:


> I am sure your ride is great & had some when they were new. But, there are engine only, chippable 'puters out there, and nowadays, so much aftermarket hardware the only thing left is the commitment to make it happen.
> 
> Just something I gotta do.


That's what I'm saying though, if you want to get away from the computers, you need to go 87 of older.


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## 3rdGenUnionCarp

*Gross Misrepresentation of the Truth*

The claim that NYC Union Carpenters will be paid 200,000 dollars a year is absolutly ridiculous. 
If said carpenter was to actually be paid the claimed 100 dollars per hour salary that was mentioned in your post, a carpenter working every single straight time hour available to them in a 1 year period would generate 176,400 dollars. After withholding taxes, benefits, and union asessments, a carpenter would take home a salary roughly in the 90,000 dollar region. Considering the wildly expensive cost of living in the New York metropolitan area, 90,000 dollars is hardly an excessive salary.
I would like to reiterate that this number is based on a carpenter not missing one single hour of work throughout a year period. Really! C'mon!


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## Dirtywhiteboy

Where are you located :blink:


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## 3rdGenUnionCarp

Nyc


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## aptpupil

aptpupil said:


> i'm wondering if the wages stated are assuming full-time employment. if so, how often do these guys actually get full-time employment all year round? a lot of the union guys i've spoken with don't get anywhere near full-time employment.





aptpupil said:


> ok, sounds like the headline is b.s. then.
> the high per hour cost is the cost associated with being on call and not having consistent work...along with the cost of doing business in the most expensive city in the country.





3rdGenUnionCarp said:


> The claim that NYC Union Carpenters will be paid 200,000 dollars a year is absolutly ridiculous.
> If said carpenter was to actually be paid the claimed 100 dollars per hour salary that was mentioned in your post, a carpenter working every single straight time hour available to them in a 1 year period would generate 176,400 dollars. After withholding taxes, benefits, and union asessments, a carpenter would take home a salary roughly in the 90,000 dollar region. Considering the wildly expensive cost of living in the New York metropolitan area, 90,000 dollars is hardly an excessive salary.
> I would like to reiterate that this number is based on a carpenter not missing one single hour of work throughout a year period. Really! C'mon!


ok, so i was basically right and whatever conservative media person who wrote the headline was just out to bash the unions. sounds about right. :jester: :laughing:


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## HARRY304E

Heritage said:


> By Steve Payne - Canadian Contractor Magazine
> 
> The Big Apple is a pretty good place to be a carpenter. At least, if you’re a member of the New York City District Council of Carpenters union. After a year without a contract, last week the union hammered out a five-year agreement with one of its major employers, the Association of Wall-Ceiling and Carpentry Industries. Under the terms of the deal, union carpenters will make nearly $100 per hour and over $200,000 in wages and benefits by 2017.
> 
> Currently the carpenters in the union are making $85.03 per hour: about $46 per hour in wages and $39 in benefits, including medical coverage and pensions. The new agreement will see their compensation increase by almost 17 per cent over the next five years, to $99.16 per hour.
> 
> The union, which has some 25,000 members, also obtained a guarantee that a union member would be hired for every non-member carpenter put on a job. The union says that will create 1,000 new union jobs a year.
> 
> LINK HERE


Nice deal..


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## cabinetsnj

Good for those guys, but seems a little too high to believe. But I guess in NYC it is possible.


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## Captnhowdy67004

Leo G said:


> Not much will be getting done in NYC this year I'm guessing.


Dont be. Jelous join a union


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## Tom M

Did you join to make that comment?


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## rrk

Thread is only 9 years old


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## Kowboy

WilsonRMDL said:


> I can't imagine how much bids will go up now to cover those wages


Oh, and business were certain they would go out of business when child labor ended. They were positive two 15-minute breaks in an 8-hour day was the road to bankruptcy. I heard one old timer bitching that the breaks were why cars cost so much. 

Now if we could only get rid of that damned health insurance, pensions, and safety protocols the stupid unions insisted upon. And the goddamn weekends. Who needs to spend time with their kids when they could be working?


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## Leo G

Captnhowdy67004 said:


> Dont be. Jelous join a union


What's your trade?


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## Pounder

Rockmonster said:


> Many years ago, early 80s, I was running a job in AZ.........I was up in Flagstaff with a crew of maybe 6 brickies.......the business agent had come by and shown us our new agreement.......at the time I think it was like $14.70 and I got another 20% as foreman, something like that. Anyway, the new agreement went out like 5 years, and had really nice increases, going from the 14.70 up like 16.50 on July 1st, and up to 20-21 in a few years. Everybody was happy with that, but this was AZ, a right to work state. When July 1 came, every union mason contractor except maybe 1, backed out........no contract. We went on strike, and closed down a sewage treatment plant, maybe 100 workers total. This went on a few days, THEN something happened behind closed doors, we could only picket from 4 pm to 6am.....all the other trades went back to work. We got skinned. Almost overnight the wages dropped to the non-union average of about 10 bucks.......and I don't think the union ever recovered there...........it still exists, but I think the bricklayers are only NOW making in the low 20s, 30 some years later. I know there's a lot of anti union sentiment here on CT, but I'm not one of them........they do act as one line of defense against that race to the bottom.......


It works both ways. The unions set a baseline, generally a pretty good one. But when union demands go to far, they price themselves out of the market. In a lot of areas there is no "race to the bottom", prices are high and so are wages. In my area even the unlicensed guys are looking for top money. I just just got a bid from a plumber that was premium price, I asked him for insurance certs and never herd another word from him. I later learned that he "works under a GC". Here in CA, that means he's unlicensed and puts his buddy's license number on his contracts.


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## ScipioAfricanus

And the word is spelled 'jealous'.

Andy.


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