# This one takes the cake - so far



## MBS (Mar 20, 2008)

I would recommend my competition to him. That's what these types of clients are for.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Thanks, and I'll still sit on it for a day or two (we replied first thing after receipt of his email that we would be reviewing his "process")


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

J F said:


> "Hi xxxxx,
> 
> Thank you for your recent email. After carefully reading through your attached renovation process, while we appreciate being considered as your contractor of choice, we are going to have to regretfully decline to continue to be involved in your vetting process.
> 
> ...



You neglected to leave the door open :blink: ....




Bodger said:


> My guess is he'll read that and you'll be the one he wants to hire the most. Becuase by rejecting him, you've shown that you are of more quality than anyone else he's talking to about this. Just my guess.


....more than anything, people want what they cannot have.

Leaving the door ajar keeps people interested....

"If we can be of assistance in the future, please feel free to contact us."


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

"You neglected to leave the door open :blink: ...."







Hell, if I leave it open, he might sneak through....:shutup:


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## Elite Perf Sup (Feb 12, 2009)

ehhh. Good luck


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

So he wants to bring down the price but raise quality?:blink::laughing::w00t::whistling:blink::blink:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Yeah, interesting combination, huh? I don't have that one figured out _quite_ yet, but I'll post when I do...:whistling


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

J F said:


> "You neglected to leave the door open :blink: ...."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He'll find some desperate fool to take the work on his terms, and the job will go in the sh!tter sure as hell. When that contractor abandons the job to cut his losses, and the site sits half-finished and idle, this guy will think of you and call you and probably dog you to death to come and take a look and give him a price to finish.

And you know what I think? This HO will have the same mind-set towards cleaning up the mess that he has now at the start. The same set of ridiculous demands and "surplus materials" and "hungry subs" and on and on. 

I'll bet there are a lot of guys on this forum that have been called out to give an estimate on jobs where the original contractor busted out and left.
In my experience with that, I can see waht happened as soon as I hit the job site. 

I can see if it was the HO who was such a PITA that things went sour, or the contractor was a flake and a foul-up. If it's the HO that seems to be the problem, the red flags are always still flying high.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

that whole email raised every red flag I have. :jester:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

kevjob said:


> that whole email raised every red flag I have. :jester:



yep, me too.... just got off amazon...ordered a couple of extra cases...


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Bodger said:


> He'll find some desperate fool to take the work on his terms, and the job will go in the sh!tter sure as hell. When that contractor abandons the job to cut his losses, and the site sits half-finished and idle, this guy will think of you and call you and probably dog you to death to come and take a look and give him a price to finish.
> 
> And you know what I think? This HO will have the same mind-set towards cleaning up the mess that he has now at the start. The same set of ridiculous demands and "surplus materials" and "hungry subs" and on and on.
> 
> ...


And of course this all has been my take from the start...run run run...but I always like to think it through some more, get some more opinions and let it stew for awhile...but damn, this has to be the most straightforward, do not pass go, go directly to jail set-up that I've personally come across...I'll let you know when I pick up the design check...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## firemike (Dec 11, 2005)

Jump on the Harley and ride as fast as you can away from this. The email says it all. The PITA factor is gonna be high on this one. I agree with the rest, there is no way to go but down on this one. We get a lot like him around here, mostly automotive or tech engineers that think that because they can design a tail light gives them complete knowledge in house design and construction, much superior to yours. They love to dictate policy and write big-worded documents and make us under-educated contractors bend over backwards for them.


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## KitchenSync (Feb 11, 2009)

Once in awhile we have commercial project managers from IT coming in to see us with this same approach. (We're not far from Silicon Valley.) 

They take a fair amount of time to educate ("No, we don't get seven bids and take the cheapest. We go with the professionals who do the work right. No, we're not bidding for free. Look at our previous projects and let us show you how we put a project together.") This takes a secondary meeting with the clients to go over all the red flags. ie. hungry AND professional does not mean charity--we want to be around for a long time; no riding of suppliers; no pre-drawing of plans or scoping out the price and why. Let's talk about what you mean by cheapest...etc. (Don't get me started about free and discounted! ) Mantra: "This isn't our approach and let me show you why..."

We've ended up with more than a few of these and they've been nice clients. If they're reasonable, you can turn them around. (You can tell the types.) If it's their road or nothing, then at the end of the meeting, I tell them we're probably not the company for them and wish them luck.


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

He wants that quality of work and thinks that 10 contractors in that area can do it? And basically wants the lowest price!!! :blink:

I second everyone else, run like the wind boy!



WisePainter said:


> I just punched my monitor.


:thumbsup:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

That is the kind of work I would like to bid on. But no way to do it at bargain basement prices. That is tome shelf work and need to commend a top shelf price. Way beyond the scope of the work it took to produce/install it. There is definitely a value added price into work like that. I like the way you worded your response/rejection. I do agree that it should be worded slightly different to leave the door open if this guy ever comes to his senses and opens up the purse strings. Which of course is highly unlikely.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Hey Jay, I found you over at WoodWeb. You stalking me? :laughing:

More views on this good subject


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

That was a rough/first draft, so it can be changed.....maybe....:beta1:
...we'll see how I feel about it later today. 

In his "process" he states he will be making a choice on to hire for the design phase by the Feb 15...Sat. So if I am going to decline (strongly leaning that way), as a professional, I would like to give him the "out" of not calling to hire us only to be told, no thanks...probably doesn't deserve it, but that's the way to do it.

J


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## javatom (Sep 9, 2008)

Jay,
Yes, I'm stalking you from other sites. I had not seen the pictures. I now think you should offer him your services at a high hourly fee. Designing or building or just holding his hand, make him pay you to indulge in his personality disorder. Biggest red flag - he's unemployed. You have got to be kidding me. You better bill him at the end of every day c.o.d.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Hell Tom, I think I would need to bill him at the _start_ of every day...:laughing:


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

j f said:


> :blink:
> 
> We received the pdf (highlights are mine) below in an email from a prospective client over-night. My first reaction was ....run run run...but my after a few minutes i was more like run faster, run faster...:laughing:
> 
> ...


run away!!


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

My guess is he just doesn't know any better. Probably got a list out of some magazine about how to deal with contractors and get the best price out of them or something.

Try to do like KitchenSync said and educate them. If it doesn't work, sionara or whatever


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

He got as much "free" education as he's going to get from the first meeting and the few emails...right now it looks like adios amigo 

J


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

J F said:


> Here's what I'm mulling for a reply...please feel free to critique, always glad to hear others' opinions...
> 
> "Hi xxxxx,
> 
> ...


Perfect. I wouldn't change a thing. The "why" is none of their business, unless they want to pay for your answer :w00t:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

DecksEtc said:


> Perfect. I wouldn't change a thing. The "why" is none of their business, unless they want to pay for your answer :w00t:


 I just pulled the trigger on declining: 



Hi xxxxxx, 



Thank you for your recent email. 



After carefully reading through your attached renovation process, while we appreciate being considered as your possible contractor of choice for either the design and/or build phase, we are going to have to regretfully decline to continue to be involved in your vetting process. 



I wanted to let you know as soon as possible, to help you in your further decision making process, regarding both the design phase as well as the build phase. 



Again, thank you for your consideration, we wish you luck with your project and hope it turns out to be a beautiful and useful addition to your home. 



Sincerely, 



me 





I've sat on it since about 6:00 a.m. and have felt pretty much the same since then after chewing it around all day...so there she is. 
I definitely appreciate ALL thoughts/opinions on this guys, always a learning experience


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## firemike (Dec 11, 2005)

:thumbup::thumbup: You are a true professional! :thumbup::thumbup:

Nice job and very well done! The only thing I would have added is a sentence something like:

We understand your concern over price, especially in these tough economic times, but as you already know, when you reach a certain point on any project the only way to reduce the overall cost is to sacrifice the quality of materials, labor, or both. We pride ourselves on providing quality products and services to our existing clients, and cannot in good conscience lower our standards just to win your project.

Or someting like that.



J F said:


> I just pulled the trigger on declining:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Thanks Mike...if I started down the road of "why" I might not stop...:laughing:

Then he'd be calling the bbb, channel 5 news, his mother-in-law, my mother...etc, etc.

J


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

J F said:


> I just pulled the trigger on declining:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good on ya' JF. Now watch this jaboney chase you down. :laughing:
I'll bet he thinks you saw something glaringly wrong about his project, his approach to contractors or himself. Or all of the above. 

And not knowing exactly why you passed will be a burr under his saddle. 
You're a stand-up guy! :thumbup:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

...well...maybe if he sends me some chocolates for valentine's I'll change my mind...:shutup:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

I wonder if I'll even get an email back from him...nobody likes to get that dear john letter though...:whistling

He'll probably write me back saying I received that pdf in error....that I wasn't even in the top 10 for consideration....ah, the agony...:laughing:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Got his email reply...

"No problem, I appreciate the heads up. Thanks for the participation to date and we part as friends."

Not too shabby.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

J F said:


> Not that it matters a whole lot in the general scheme here, but here are some samples of what they would like to see in the basement...


 
....and use surplus materials and keep it under 2 grand.


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## Jeremy E (Jul 19, 2006)

... and they all lived happily ever after.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Can't you use poplar and make it look like quarter sawn white oak?


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

J F said:


> Got his email reply...
> 
> "No problem, I appreciate the heads up. Thanks for the participation to date and we part as friends."
> 
> Not too shabby.


Right on, at least he understands.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

J F said:


> Got his email reply...
> 
> "No problem, I appreciate the heads up. Thanks for the participation to date and we part as friends."
> 
> Not too shabby.


He's got some balls sending you an note like that! :furious::laughing:


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

Bodger said:


> He's got some balls sending you an note like that! :furious::laughing:


 
Its always about the genitalia with you isnt it .......................


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## precisionbuild (Nov 17, 2008)

ModernStyle said:


> Its always about the genitalia with you isnt it .......................


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

If I were you, I'd offer this guy a comission based project manager position. Bid the job at $200K and give him $10K for every $25K that he brings the job in under budget. Set the budget at $100K. Make sure you disclose that the first $50K of his comission will be held in escro until all release of leins are signed and the contract is satisfied. There should be a performance clause in his contract that he will personally be liable to bring the project in at or below budget. The penalty should be 75% of the cost overrun for the first $50K at which point the remaining overrun will be covered 100%.


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

:blink:


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

ModernStyle said:


> Its always about the genitalia with you isnt it .......................


You do a little ball-sack talking yourself now and again :laughing::laughing:
And Who wants a hug?? :laughing:
http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/help-me-please-how-do-estimate-52875/index2/#post600832


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