# Fool proof job for you!



## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

Brand new residential construction: 

Inspector says we have a few areas where the staples are not within 8" of the boxes and no more than 2 romex under a staple. No problem right?
Just a couple corrections.

Wrong, I send out my nephew( the one who wrecked my truck and lost all hi stools) with a box of staples etc.. he decides that within 8" of a box, is removing every staple that is within 8"and re-stapling past 8". That's right every box in this 3500 square feet house.

It took me nearly box of 100 staples to realize , what the hell just happened. I nearly had a heart attack, seriously. 20 staples max probably would of fixed the corrections, now I ran out of staples and have to return tommorrow, since HO wanted to ad some more lights anyway.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Communication means you both understand what you both understand.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Communication means you both understand what you both understand.


My wife even told him to to call me, when he got to the job, so he wouldn't screw anything up and just to verify. Never got the call.
He has done atleast 20 new construction houses, so I don't even understand why I even would need to communicate anything.

Staples, hammer go at it.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

hbelectric said:


> Inspector says we have a few areas where the staples are not within 8" of the boxes .....


By this he was referring to single gang NM boxes, right?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

No such thing as fool proof.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> By this he was referring to single gang NM boxes, right?


NM boxes, but there wasn't a difference between single, double etc..The GC was the one who walked with the inspector, btw this is the 1st time I have ever been hit on staples.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

We always get the 8" right, actually we do it at 6" to be on the safe side, but I've never had a problem with 3 or 4 cables under a staple. It seems that 3 or 4 under a single staple in the center of the stud would be better than 2 + 2 side by side.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

hbelectric said:


> Wrong, I send out my nephew( the one who wrecked my truck and lost all hi stools) with a box of staples etc.. he decides that within 8" of a box, is removing every staple that is within 8"and re-stapling past 8". That's right every box in this 3500 square feet house.


Sorry guy, but I really have to award you with one of these: :bangin:

I used to work for a GC who saddled me with _his_ nephew, cut from the same mold. I dealt with it for a few months and then gave the boss an ultimatum; him or me. Him left, and we actually made money for a while.

Family or not, sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

hbelectric said:


> NM boxes, but there wasn't a difference between single, double etc..The GC was the one who walked with the inspector, btw this is the 1st time I have ever been hit on staples.


That's what's funny. 
A single gang NM box without a clamp must be stapled within 8". Everything else is 12".

See NEC 334.30 and 314.17(C) Exc.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Your nephew is definitely not the first to do something that stupid. 

Thom, you sure have some strange rules out there in New Mexico.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> That's what's funny.
> A single gang NM box without a clamp must be stapled within 8". Everything else is 12".
> 
> See NEC 334.30 and 314.17(C) Exc.


The inspectors need to find something, so I don't agrue with this simple stuff. Everything was stapled perfectly to the code, in the 1st place then.
Never heard of more than 2 romex under a staple though.

I failed a inspection 3 weeks ago , for not painting the metal conduit i ran outside for the grounding wire. That was a new one.


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## ampman (Apr 1, 2009)

when your inspector gets out of the truck with a tape measure and his code book its going to be a long day


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

All kinds of stupid going on here arty:

Whoever wrote the 8" code = stupid. 12" is plenty close

Inspector for nitpicking when he should be focusing on real issue = stupid.

The kid for losing his tools = stupid.

Last but not least.....you, for not showing the bonehead kid exactly what to do. I'll upgrade you to dumb :laughing:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

As slow as it has been the inspectors need to find stuff so they can come back out.I have noticed them being way more picky than usual.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Thats the crummy part of employees...it doesn't matter how bad they mess up or what they do; and the end of the day IT'S YOUR FAULT!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Thats the crummy part of employees...it doesn't matter how bad they mess up or what they do; and the end of the day IT'S YOUR FAULT!


 
Incorrectamundo. It's still the employee's fault. It's your responsibility.


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## luckyshadow (Jun 18, 2005)

Why is it when the electrician holds to the letter of the code he is a superb electrician, but when the inspector holds to the letter of the code he is being picky


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

luckyshadow said:


> Why is it when the electrician holds to the letter of the code he is a superb electrician, but when the inspector holds to the letter of the code he is being picky


Care to explain? In this case, and many others, the inspector was asking for something above and beyond code.


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## luckyshadow (Jun 18, 2005)

JumboJack said:


> As slow as it has been the inspectors need to find stuff so they can come back out.I have noticed them being way more picky than usual.



Need I explain it more ??


The original poster stated the inspector stated "in a FEW places". Now that sounds like the inspector was looking at a FEW single Gang plastic nail on boxes that were not to code as far as staple distance. It was never stated exactly which boxes were in violation. So we can not say the inspector was asking for something above the code. That and the more then allowed by the manufacture,number of cables under 1 staple. 

Is an inspector being too picky if he/she enforces the code to the letter?
No they are doing what they are being paid for.
Inspector asking for more then code ? Challenge him/her on it politely.
An electrician hates an inspector with an attitude just as much as an inspector hates an electrician with an attitude.


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## Timster (Feb 1, 2006)

Too many electrical inspectors know nothing about the electrical business; of course real electricians are going to have a bad attitude. 

For example, we recently did some permitted work for a new homeowner about to move into an old house here (700,000), and the idiot/corrupt inspector insisted that the kitchen needed to be brought up to code, even though it was completely unrelated to our work. 

No matter how much my electrician argued, he couldn't teach the dumb inspector.

Unbelievably, the homeowner actually works with a watchdog group that goes after corrupt government people. She made one phone call, and that dishonest inspector totally backed off and disappeared. She must have had some contacts, because you can't do that easily in this city.

Yeah, we had the last laugh that time, but we don't always get the last laugh on all the dishonest/uneducated electrical inspectors out there.

And so what if an electrician is a jerk; if his work passes, inspectors should pass it, not power trip in their own little world like they are somebody. 

Oh, I am stopping now; I shouldn't even think about this.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Timster said:


> Too many electrical inspectors know nothing about the electrical business............


Never mind the ones that don't know about the _business_ end of the trade, it's the ones that don't know about the _Code_ end.

You know the ones..... they make things up as they go. Enforce rules that are not written anywhere. "That's they way I was thaught" method of enforcement.

Fortunately, I've only dealt with one of them (so far!), and I managed to accidently get him fired.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I would never want to see an inspector get fired unless it was really deserving. What I have done in the past with clueless inspectors is pull them aside once they are away from the crowd and explain my case to them. Blowing up their spot and embarrassing them in front of the other people on the job is no way to earn his respect and certainly no way to get him to change his mind. If you are certain you are right and he is wrong, kindly pull him aside and plead your case. Yelling and screaming and arguing with him will get you nowhere. Just make sure you are right about the code issue and cite a code reference to defend your position.


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## ampman (Apr 1, 2009)

if you let them inspectors will try to get away with alot i always try to be at the job when they show up


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I plan on kissing every inspectors ass until they get to know me and the work I do.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> I plan on kissing every inspectors ass until they get to know me and the work I do.


 
I tried that, and it didn't work. None of them kiss my ass these days.:furious:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> I plan on kissing every inspectors ass until they get to know me and the work I do.


I've had that resolve many times. But when push comes to shove, if it's a guy I can respect, there's no point in it. And for the ones I can't respect, the pucker muscles just seem to go on vacation. In that case, the best I can do is a weak smile with one side of my mouth. Usually.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Anything I've run into the answer is always: even if the inspector is wrong do what he says. 

About 20 years ago my father failed his inspection because the meter box was mounted too high; contacted ESA and they said the code is irrelevent and to listen to the inspector. So he built up the grade infront of the meter and everyone was happy. 

Arguing with an inspector is like arguing with police, bylaw, etc etc. Your just making your life more difficult; I try to be as friendly and diplomatic as possible (even if I'm thinking otherwise).


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> Anything I've run into the answer is always: even if the inspector is wrong do what he says.
> 
> About 20 years ago my father failed his inspection because the meter box was mounted too high; contacted ESA and they said the code is irrelevent and to listen to the inspector. So he built up the grade infront of the meter and everyone was happy.
> 
> *Arguing with an inspector is like arguing with police, bylaw, etc etc.* Your just making your life more difficult; I try to be as friendly and diplomatic as possible (even if I'm thinking otherwise).


It's like arguing with an umpire!


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I guess we're lucky because if there are repeated problems with the same inspector we can use the chain oc command and go above that person to render another decision. I didn't jump through all these hoops to have an EI tell me "this is the way we do it" or some crap like that.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

JumboJack said:


> It's like arguing with an umpire!


An umpire is usually the 'last word' when it comes to differences.

Inspectors are different. They typically have a superior..... someone 'higher up' the chain of command. Usually the AHJ itself.


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## Softy (Jul 26, 2009)

Timster said:


> Too many electrical inspectors know nothing about the electrical business; of course real electricians are going to have a bad attitude.
> 
> For example, we recently did some permitted work for a new homeowner about to move into an old house here (700,000), and the idiot/corrupt inspector insisted that the kitchen needed to be brought up to code, even though it was completely unrelated to our work.
> 
> ...



I don't know if I be laughing. Cali-phony mandated GFCI in kitchen and bath in new and existing home. Smoke alarm also must be in place. I think that law passed 2 yrs ago. If your customer got hurt in due course you'll be held liable for it. I would let owner sign a waiver affidavit stating that he/she doesn't want electrical update. Also, your title said "contractor" so this means that you're not allow to work on electrical. You need to subs it out. An electrician would've comply with the code. Bottom line is the inspector got you by the balls...:whistling


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## arelect (Aug 10, 2009)

Around here we have an idependant inspection company that some towns use instead of hiring their own inspector. They have the idea that they must fail the first inspection so they can collect a $50 re-inpection fee. We also have some inspectors that do that to pocket the re-inspect fee. The inspector must give a code reference so we always ask for it even if we know it. Also we will go to the state inspector if we have real problems. It is easy to interpret the code differently than another person, so give the inspector a chance to explain himself and if they are totally wrong then go over his head, but that all being said, just agreeing with him and fixing what he wants can make for much easier inspections in the future and an inspector you can work with.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

arelect said:


> Around here we have an idependant inspection company that some towns use instead of hiring their own inspector. They have the idea that they must fail the first inspection so they can collect a $50 re-inpection fee. We also have some inspectors that do that to pocket the re-inspect fee. The inspector must give a code reference so we always ask for it even if we know it. Also we will go to the state inspector if we have real problems. It is easy to interpret the code differently than another person, so give the inspector a chance to explain himself and if they are totally wrong then go over his head, but that all being said, just agreeing with him and fixing what he wants can make for much easier inspections in the future and an inspector you can work with.


So you are OK with extortion then?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> So you are OK with extortion then?


I wonder how they cash a check made out to the building department. Wouldn't that be fraud and embezzelement as well?


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Softy said:


> I don't know if I be laughing. Cali-phony mandated GFCI in kitchen and bath in new and existing home. Smoke alarm also must be in place. I think that law passed 2 yrs ago. If your customer got hurt in due course you'll be held liable for it. I would let owner sign a waiver affidavit stating that he/she doesn't want electrical update. *Also, your title said "contractor" so this means that you're not allow to work on electrical. You need to subs it out.* An electrician would've comply with the code. Bottom line is the inspector got you by the balls...:whistling


He is in California...Some may or may not like it but a GC can do any trade (except C-16 and C-57) on a job if he is doing two or more trades that are not framing or carpentry...Please don't start an argument.This is fact not an opinion.
Call the CSLB if you don't know this or don't believe me.I would think a GC in California would know this.
From the CSLB web site.

(b) A general building contractor may take a prime contract or a subcontract for a framing or carpentry project. However, a general building contractor shall not take a prime contract for any project involving trades other than framing or carpentry unless the prime contract requires at least two unrelated building trades or crafts other than framing or carpentry, or unless the general building contractor holds the appropriate license classification or subcontracts with an appropriately licensed specialty contractor to perform the work. A general building contractor shall not take a subcontract involving trades other than framing or carpentry, unless the subcontract requires at least two unrelated trades or crafts other than framing or carpentry, or unless the general building contractor holds the appropriate license classification. The general building contractor may not count framing or carpentry in calculating the two unrelated trades necessary in order for the general building contractor to be able to take a prime contract or subcontract for a project involving other trades.

And this is an answer from a guy that used to work at CSLB....
Post #38
http://www.contractortalk.com/f63/california-licensing-32617/index2/


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## electrichelper (Jul 13, 2009)

hbelectric said:


> Brand new residential construction:
> 
> Inspector says we have a few areas where the staples are not within 8" of the boxes and no more than 2 romex under a staple. No problem right?
> Just a couple corrections.
> ...



First of all, what kind of boxes where they? NM or MTC? If NM, it has to be within of 8" per box, but if Metallic, then only 12" of every box.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

electrichelper said:


> First of all, what kind of boxes where they? NM or MTC? If NM, it has to be within of 8" per box, but if Metallic, then only 12" of every box.


Not completely so my friend. 

Please see 334.30 & 314.17(C)Exc.

In the _Exception_ I referenced above please note the words: _"...single gang boxes not larger than a nominal size 57 mm × 100 mm (21/4 in. × 4 in.)..."_


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## arelect (Aug 10, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> So you are OK with extortion then?


I most certainly not ok with it. They generally don't last long in any given municipality. To be honest, I don't know if the company is even around anymore.


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## arelect (Aug 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I wonder how they cash a check made out to the building department. Wouldn't that be fraud and embezzelement as well?


 
They don't actually pocket the reiinspection fee, but get paid per inspection, there for gtting the re-inspect fee in their pocket.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

arelect said:


> They don't actually pocket the reiinspection fee, but get paid per inspection, there for gtting the re-inspect fee in their pocket.


Again, *how do they cash the check* *made out to the AHJ*? That would be fraud and embezzlement.

Or do you pay the guy in cash and trust him?


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## arelect (Aug 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Again, *how do they cash the check* *made out to the AHJ*? That would be fraud and embezzlement.
> 
> Or do you pay the guy in cash and trust him?


 
The municipality pays them per inspection. So if they inspect it once they get paid for one inspection, if they have to do a re-inspection they get paid again by he AHJ.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

arelect said:


> The municipality pays them per inspection. So if they inspect it once they get paid for one inspection, if they have to do a re-inspection they get paid again by he AHJ.


What a stupid freaking policy. That is flat out inviting fraud and extortion.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> What a stupid freaking policy. That is flat out inviting fraud and extortion.


X2. I'd see about getting that policy changed.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

JumboJack said:


> He is in California...Some may or may not like it but a GC can do any trade (except C-16 and C-57) on a job if he is doing two or more trades that are not framing or carpentry...Please don't start an argument.This is fact not an opinion.
> Call the CSLB if you don't know this or don't believe me.I would think a GC in California would know this.
> From the CSLB web site.
> 
> ...


Hey I've read that a few times and it is still confusing to me. Let's say for example it is electrical and plumbing are the 2 jobs. You would still need a state licensed Journeyman electrician to actually do the work, not sure if plumbers have same requirements. Do you agree?


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

hbelectric said:


> Hey I've read that a few times and it is still confusing to me. Let's say for example it is electrical and plumbing are the 2 jobs. You would still need a state licensed Journeyman electrician to actually do the work, not sure if plumbers have same requirements. Do you agree?


The GC could do it.If he has employees they would have to meet the journeyman requirements.Or it could be that only employees of a EC can be enrolled in the apprentice and journeyman programs,I'm not sure.
I don't think they have the same journeyman requirements for plumbers employees yet.

From what I understand they,the CSLB,allow this because they figure that a GC would not do a trade he did not know how to do because it is his butt on the line.I know I don't.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

JumboJack said:


> The GC could do it.If he has employees they would have to meet the journeyman requirements.Or it could be that only employees of a EC can be enrolled in the apprentice and journeyman programs,I'm not sure.
> I don't think they have the same journeyman requirements for plumbers employees yet.
> 
> From what I understand they,the CSLB,allow this because they figure that a GC would not do a trade he did not know how to do because it is his butt on the line.I know I don't.


 
I say this because a home remodeling stickered truck and trailer pulled up, into my local Electrical supply house yesterday, buying up can lights. I'm pretty those were carpenters, going to install can lights, because they were asking the counter guy alot of questions.

I know this is standard practice here, just wait until I start doing kitchen remodels on my c-10 haaa.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

hbelectric said:


> I say this because a home remodeling stickered truck and trailer pulled up, into my local Electrical supply house yesterday, buying up can lights. I'm pretty those were carpenters, going to install can lights, because they were asking the counter guy alot of questions.
> 
> I know this is standard practice here, just wait until I start doing kitchen remodels on my c-10 haaa.


Well if they are carpenters they should not be doing that.


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