# Confused H-Owner is taking me to civil court



## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

I completed an insurance claim re roof back in April of 2010. The homeowner called my salesman 2 weeks after completion/full payment with a "problem",went out there personally and took a look at his "problem" ,which happened to be a small horizontal crack/split in the rake soffit of the backside of his 3 story gable. I assured him that this was not related to our re roof process. He then began to threaten me with legal action immediately and swore up and down that this crack/split was caused by a "roofing shovel"..!? I again assured him that was not the cause. He then became so excited about what my denial, I had to say I'll look more into it. I'll look at what areas decking were replaced because that would be the only way a "roofing shovel" could have done what he's showing me. Once I told him no decking was replaced on that portion of the home he went nuts.! As my right, I then refused to speak with him regarding this event due to his repetitive threat of legal action. 
Months later his attorney friend sent me an unsigned contract for $350 to repair a 1sf piece of wood soffit!? I said no. He then, again, threatened legal action. So I said I'll offer to do an Xactimate estimate for the repair, and that I would be willing to pay that amount to end the nightmare. The estimate came close to $180. They refused. 
About 2-3 weeks later they had papers delivered to me by the local sheriff stating "plaintiff preys that I never responded to his issue(I went to his home personally) and I never offered anything regarding his bill (I provided an up to date Xactimate estimate I would pay) and for breach of contract!!? Soo now I'm being sewed for $5,000!!!!!!!!? 
Please can anyone lead me in the wright direction as to how to prove my innocence in civil court!? This is nuts!? I've never been in a situation like this. The attorney my gen liability insurance gave me told me I'd be fine and not to waste money on a deductible by filling a claim to receive council. HELP
I know that's way too long for interest but I wanted it to be close to the real deal, so that any advice given would be like u were there...kinda?


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

Documentation. Get it all together. Get it to your attourney, pay the man.. and keep on keeping on. Go to court and have your attourney serve him up a shat sammich. Watch him eat it with a HUGE smile on your face 

Good luck man. Sorry to hear of your troubles.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Don't forget to counter sue for legal costs and emotional stress. Check with your lawyer.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

are you positive your crew didn't somehow cause it?just sayin things happen


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## cork-guy (May 1, 2010)

Honestly, you'll be at a loss either way. You need to speak to a competent attorney and find out how much this will cost. If his services will be around $5,000 or more you're better off cutting your losses and taking the deduction. Honestly, who every said anything about counter suing is misinformed and needs to understand the concept and reasoning behind counter suing for legal fees; our legal system works in the will that each party pays for their attorney, while certain laws and situations allow counter suing, but it's hardly always successful.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

katoman said:


> Don't forget to counter sue for legal costs and emotional stress. Check with your lawyer.


Thanks for your time to respond katoman.. Do I stand a chance on my own.? It's a case that's scheduled very very soon..:-| I've confidently taken the positive advice the attorney gave me to the Go-Time point of my process, along with my answer of no counter suite.? Could I come in now and file counter suite and hire attorney?
I've got the truth of what I personally believe happened.? To settle his thoughts (I believe he really thinks this was our fault) I've proceeded with a summons of evidence requesting receipt(s) and or invoice(s) or masonry repair work done to this and other portions of the home due to the home "settling". He specifically told me his home was "wrongfully built on a bad piece of left over land in a completed neighborhood". He realized this a few years after he'd purchased..this came up when I'd asked him in person about the cracks/splits in his siding (brick) including the repairs (VERY noticeable) that had been done...
How do I get the photos of that or even the previous receipts:invoices..?


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## frinkbc (Feb 3, 2011)

also make sure you add into your counter suit all the time that you personally put into this lawsuit, simply put time is money and this problem is keeping you from your other jobs, bids,paperwork and any other thing job related.
one other tip is something i started to do is take pics of the before and plenty of the after. i make doubles one set goes into the job file and the other goes to the customer, your customer will think your great and show there pics to friends and family (this guy is so great he took the time to give me these photos) really your protecting yoursself in court. good luck:thumbsup:


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

ssroofpros said:


> Thanks for your time to respond katoman.. Do I stand a chance on my own.? It's a case that's scheduled very very soon..:-| I've confidently taken the positive advice the attorney gave me to the Go-Time point of my process, along with my answer of no counter suite.? Could I come in now and file counter suite and hire attorney?
> I've got the truth of what I personally believe happened.? To settle his thoughts (I believe he really thinks this was our fault) I've proceeded with a summons of evidence requesting receipt(s) and or invoice(s) or masonry repair work done to this and other portions of the home due to the home "settling". He specifically told me his home was "wrongfully built on a bad piece of left over land in a completed neighborhood". He realized this a few years after he'd purchased..this came up when I'd asked him in person about the cracks/splits in his siding (brick) including the repairs (VERY noticeable) that had been done...
> How do I get the photos of that or even the previous receipts:invoices..?


Basically...how do I prove that..?
I've been told by many many others that "if one doesn't see it happen and/or have a video/recording (ball-busting-evidence) the judge says "Dismissed" due to nothing but "opinions" and "finger-pointing" as evidence.


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## Jason-F (Jul 4, 2009)

Brutal. As soon as you get your lawyer involved this is going way further and costing you way more than it should have.

Basically if you spend a dime more 170.00 above and beyond the 180.00 you offered to pay already....your throwing money at the wall. I would call the home owner... and just offer to pay him the original requested money of 350.00 just to end things quickly. He obviously feels VERY strongly that you are responsible and probably cares about the 350.00 much more than you do. Apologize and let him yell at you. If he accepts the money run it over to him asap...and have him sign something realeasing you from all liability related to the claim. 


Realisically unless you can prove you didn't do the damage you will be liable since your company was supposidly in the visinity when it occured. Never know though...Really comes down to if the judge happens to like roofing contractors or not.... Good Luck.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

frinkbc said:


> also make sure you add into your counter suit all the time that you personally put into this lawsuit, simply put time is money and this problem is keeping you from your other jobs, bids,paperwork and any other thing job related.
> one other tip is something i started to do is take pics of the before and plenty of the after. i make doubles one set goes into the job file and the other goes to the customer, your customer will think your great and show there pics to friends and family (this guy is so great he took the time to give me these photos) really your protecting yoursself in court. good luck:thumbsup:


Well...I'm very good at being great after the fact..!? I have in the past, and do now personally take before and after picas just as u described...one set per job for us and one for customer. This was one of my best sales-guys and he to takes photos, BUTTTT he f'd up by not taking them, or as he says "I took em on my old cell phone but for some reason their gone".


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Jason-F said:


> Brutal. As soon as you get your lawyer involved this is going way further and costing you way more than it should have.
> 
> Basically if you spend a dime more 170.00 above and beyond the 180.00 you offered to pay already....your throwing money at the wall. I would call the home owner... and just offer to pay him the original requested money of 350.00 just to end things quickly. He obviously feels VERY strongly that you are responsible and probably cares about the 350.00 much more than you do. Apologize and let him yell at you. If he accepts the money run it over to him asap...and have him sign something realeasing you from all liability related to the claim. If he refuses to accept your money after you try to talk him into it a couple times... THEN get aggressive tell him that you will be countersuing and all that other jazz.
> 
> Realisically unless you can prove you didn't do the damage you will be liable since your company was supposidly in the visinity when it occured.


So he didn't have to prove it happened during our re roof..? He has no proof it wasn't there before, during, but only after (he discovered this old, new, etc damage two weeks after completion). All he's bringing to court is his opinion, and that's all I've really got myself, yet I've got the salesmen as a witness and my opinion is a professional opinion..?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

we have all had or will get 1 or 5 of these kinds of customers in our life,350 sounded cheap to me to be rid of him:sad:,i think he actually really thinks you did it,logic don't mean nothing to him now


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## Jason-F (Jul 4, 2009)

Set all opinions aside, they dont account for anything. The only thing the judge knows for sure is that you were working in the area and the homeowner now has noticed damage on his house. Since your the Defendant... you have to DEFEND your position with proof that this infact is a unsubstanciated claim.

I once took a $2200 hit to avoid going to court... So think of 350 as a cost of doing buisness.


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## frinkbc (Feb 3, 2011)

just my opinion here, dont fold on this guy, take it to court, counter sue, that changes the game. now he stands to loose something and thats money i would and have stood my ground and i have won


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

tomstruble said:


> are you positive your crew didn't somehow cause it?just sayin things happen


I'm positive. The construction access was the front of the home, it was 1 story. We never burdened the 3 story rear this problem is located..I've done many roofs and I've never had this type of issue. No construction traffic occurred near this area


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

court comes down to who has the best argument. Along with that is the documentation. Do that. You should be golden. Judges don't have an axe to grind against anyone unless they don't come prepared with the proper documentation to back their claims. They may look down their nose at you and put you under the microscope, but if you have done everything you could/can do.. then you are okay. Counter suing... tell your attourney to ask the judge to have the other party cover your legal fees.. I would also tell your attorney that you want protection against slander from the other party on the internet.. need to have the judge, look long and hard at the guy and let him know if he does.. he will be up chit creek without a paddle.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Man....I can't tell y'all how much I appreciate yall's time to offer advice..!! It's extremely helpful to this pre-court limbo process I'm goin through. I've been Balls-to-tha-wall positive till tonight..the closer it gets the more I start freakin out


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

Jason-F said:


> Set all opinions aside, they dont account for anything. The only thing the judge knows for sure is that you were working in the area and the homeowner now has noticed damage on his house. Since your the Defendant... you have to DEFEND your position with proof that this infact is a unsubstanciated claim.
> 
> I once took a $2200 hit to avoid going to court... So think of 350 as a cost of doing buisness.


The burden of proof lies on the plaintiff, But Jason is right you still need to defend your self. & most typically the judge will side with the plaintiff as he will look more like a victim than you.
Your best defence is to pay the deductible & put this behind you. Even if you fight it & win, at what cost...Sorry man.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

ssroofpros said:


> Man....I can't tell y'all how much I appreciate yall's time to offer advice..!! It's extremely helpful to this pre-court limbo process I'm goin through. I've been Balls-to-tha-wall positive till tonight..the closer it gets the more I start freakin out


As most of y'all may have experienced...it's rough workin for ur dad!? I'm in my mid 20's and have worked VERY hard to earned what I thought was an un-earnable trust. Now here I am after close to a decade(most of y'all have been longer, but ya gotta start somewhere rite) of workin my butt off, some customer I got a FREE $13,000 roof is lookin to take it away???!


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

we have different opinions but we all wish you luck:thumbsup:


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## GPI (Jan 13, 2005)

ssroofpros said:


> I completed an insurance claim re roof back in April of 2010. The homeowner called my salesman 2 weeks after completion/full payment with a "problem",went out there personally and took a look at his "problem" ,which happened to be a small horizontal crack/split in the rake soffit of the backside of his 3 story gable. I assured him that this was not related to our re roof process. He then began to threaten me with legal action immediately and swore up and down that this crack/split was caused by a "roofing shovel"..!? I again assured him that was not the cause. He then became so excited about what my denial, I had to say I'll look more into it. I'll look at what areas decking were replaced because that would be the only way a "roofing shovel" could have done what he's showing me. Once I told him no decking was replaced on that portion of the home he went nuts.! As my right, I then refused to speak with him regarding this event due to his repetitive threat of legal action.
> Months later his attorney friend sent me an unsigned contract for $350 to repair a 1sf piece of wood soffit!? I said no. He then, again, threatened legal action. So I said I'll offer to do an Xactimate estimate for the repair, and that I would be willing to pay that amount to end the nightmare. The estimate came close to $180. They refused.
> About 2-3 weeks later they had papers delivered to me by the local sheriff stating "plaintiff preys that I never responded to his issue(I went to his home personally) and I never offered anything regarding his bill (I provided an up to date Xactimate estimate I would pay) and for breach of contract!!? Soo now I'm being sewed for $5,000!!!!!!!!?
> Please can anyone lead me in the wright direction as to how to prove my innocence in civil court!? This is nuts!? I've never been in a situation like this. The attorney my gen liability insurance gave me told me I'd be fine and not to waste money on a deductible by filling a claim to receive council. HELP
> I know that's way too long for interest but I wanted it to be close to the real deal, so that any advice given would be like u were there...kinda?


Just my opinion, i would have turned it over to the insurance Co. , pay the deductable and let the HO try and defraud them. No more hassle. Fighting the small battles leaves you no stregnth for the big one to come.


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## larryb (May 23, 2008)

Did "Mr. Happy" sign a completion cert saying that he was satisfied with everything about the job. If so, that should help. Buildpinnacles reply was probably the most reasonable of all here. However, I'd still like to see what "Happy's" lawyer thinks constitutes a $5k claim.


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## MilwaukeeMike (Feb 15, 2011)

Nightmare customers/clients are always going to rear their ugly heads. The customer should apply due diligence to whom they hire and conversely WE should "feel" out a new customer & turn down the ones that "smell" like a nightmare `a brewin. We're at a disadvantage, times are tough & turning down work isn't an option for most. The only thing that helps us brave the storm is tact my friend. This might not help you now but it's something to think about the next time (hopefully never) you encounter one of these "people". Good Luck.

P.S. unless he's got video of that "shovel" causing the damage he's blowin hot air & the judge may throw it out & fine him court costs. Don't sweat it chief.


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## Bornsavage1983 (Feb 4, 2011)

The first thing I thought of when reading this post was an old saying my dad use to say "ten good words about you, MIGHT get you a job, but one bad word WILL lose you ten jobs" but after reading the thread completly, chances are "Mr. Happy" is like this with all people in his life, and no one he knows will believe a word out of his mouth. I have absolutly no faith in our legal system, and it would not surprise me a bit if you end up forking over 5k to this guy. I wish you the best of luck and hope you let us all know the out come. If you do lose make sure you let every servise man in your area know what happened with this guy, and maybe no one will work for him again. My best friend owns Roto-Rooter in our town, and if someone treats us like that (which they have) they get black balled. "What are you gonna do with a tub full of poo?"


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

larryb said:


> Did "Mr. Happy" sign a completion cert saying that he was satisfied with everything about the job. If so, that should help. Buildpinnacles reply was probably the most reasonable of all here. However, I'd still like to see what "Happy's" lawyer thinks constitutes a $5k claim.


We did a walk around upon completion. He wanted us to (touchup) one of the two dormers located on the front main hip. The cap over the base flashing was done with 3-tab, then he wanted it changed to architectural to blend in better with the field, so we did. He had minor concerns with this and that, and we fixed them. At the end of the day he was 100% satisfied and happily cut us the check...


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I'm sure this will end before you get to the judge. You'll both go to the arbitrator, shell say 5k is absurd, you'll pay the 370 or whatever it was anyway. Only difference is that you've wasted countless hours when you could have been doing other stuff.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

MilwaukeeMike said:


> Nightmare customers/clients are always going to rear their ugly heads. The customer should apply due diligence to whom they hire and conversely WE should "feel" out a new customer & turn down the ones that "smell" like a nightmare `a brewin. We're at a disadvantage, times are tough & turning down work isn't an option for most. The only thing that helps us brave the storm is tact my friend. This might not help you now but it's something to think about the next time (hopefully never) you encounter one of these "people". Good Luck.
> 
> P.S. unless he's got video of that "shovel" causing the damage he's blowin hot air & the judge may throw it out & fine him court costs. Don't sweat it chief.


That's exactly what my father told me..? My concern with that is...I don't have anything showing it didn't, other than common sense.? It physically could not happen with the sheathing (OSB) in place. We would've had to work our butts off to do it intentionally, certainly couldn't be done unintentionally.!?


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

_Months later his attorney friend sent me an unsigned contract for $350 to repair a 1sf piece of wood soffit!? I said no. He then, again, threatened legal action. So I said I'll offer to do an Xactimate estimate for the repair, and that I would be willing to pay that amount to end the nightmare. The estimate came close to $180._


So he was willing to pay you $350 for something you Xactimated at $180?:blink:
I'm confused..........


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

tcleve4911 said:


> _Months later his attorney friend sent me an unsigned contract for $350 to repair a 1sf piece of wood soffit!? I said no. He then, again, threatened legal action. So I said I'll offer to do an Xactimate estimate for the repair, and that I would be willing to pay that amount to end the nightmare. The estimate came close to $180._
> 
> 
> So he was willing to pay you $350 for something you Xactimated at $180?:blink:
> I'm confused..........


It sounds to me like he wanted SS to sign a contract agreeing to pay the HO $350 to have someone else repair the roof.


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## MilwaukeeMike (Feb 15, 2011)

In that case, the cynic in me says maybe the jerk screwed up his own property to get a "free ride" so to speak...sounds like a lot of work & an incredible "cara dura" (spanish slang for a person with little honor) to go to that length in order to screw you over. All kinds of folks in this world.
BTW...your dad sounds like a wise man...Again, good luck.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

tcleve4911 said:


> Months later his attorney friend sent me an unsigned contract for $350 to repair a 1sf piece of wood soffit!? I said no. He then, again, threatened legal action. So I said I'll offer to do an Xactimate estimate for the repair, and that I would be willing to pay that amount to end the nightmare. The estimate came close to $180.
> 
> So he was willing to pay you $350 for something you Xactimated at $180?:blink:
> I'm confused..........


No, we roofed his house (typical insurance loss re roof) and he called us 2weeks later sayin he had a prob. So I personally went out to the home and he had a split/cracked soffit that he believed was caused by a "roofing shovel". 
We said that was surely not the cause and that this damage was not related to the re roof. He threatened legal action immediately so we then, as our right, ended that conversation. He later sent me an unsigned estimate as his bill bill along with a statement from his friend attorney to pay $350 or ELSE!!!, and for us not to test him. We then assured both that this was not our issue, and the bill was twice the amount of that repair.? I provided them with an up to day Xactimate Estimate for the repair and even agreed to pay that amount ($180) to agree to disagree (end the nightmare) and have a happy customer. 
That didn't fly, just the same as nothing else did prior!
So now he's filed suit for $350 for soffit, $750 for his friend attorney fees, and $4,000 for his pain & suffering and our "delinquents"...totaling a claim of $5,000


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Not sure what the limits are in your state, but here that amount would not qualify for small claims court and therefore he can sue you for pain and suffering. You can take your chances and go to court if you prefer, as some here suggest. I for one, for that small of a repair and knowing what I know and having been to court, would not take that chance.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Mud Master said:


> It sounds to me like he wanted SS to sign a contract agreeing to pay the HO $350 to have someone else repair the roof.


Correct Mud Master. He wanted $350


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

MilwaukeeMike said:


> In that case, the cynic in me says maybe the jerk screwed up his own property to get a "free ride" so to speak...sounds like a lot of work & an incredible "cara dura" (spanish slang for a person with little honor) to go to that length in order to screw you over. All kinds of folks in this world.
> BTW...your dad sounds like a wise man...Again, good luck.


Thanks MilwaukeeMike...I'm sweatin !


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Warren said:


> Not sure what the limits are in your state, but here that amount would not qualify for small claims court and therefore he can sue you for pain and suffering. You can take your chances and go to court if you prefer, as some here suggest. I for one, for that small of a repair and knowing what I know and having been to court, would not take that chance.


Well...I'm gonna offer a settlement tomorrow, which is the day before court, and as some have posted "the 11th hour". The best of this ordeal would be that they back down prior to the mediation process I've been told happens before seeing the Judge, or they accept my offer of the small loss. The worst I'm looking at prior to the final decision would be to stand my ground in court to the best of my ability and let the system decide..? 
I'm bringing the facts (the right) to the table of his opinion(s) (I thinks, and I'm pretty sure, or I don't know what else would've caused it, etc..). This judgement is nothing more than words of both sides. I'm still worried about being behind from the get go..by being the defendant, and by simply being a contractor in the court room of homeowners..!? :-/


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## MilwaukeeMike (Feb 15, 2011)

ssroofpros said:


> Well...I'm gonna offer a settlement tomorrow, which is the day before court, and as some have posted "the 11th hour". The best of this ordeal would be that they back down prior to the mediation process I've been told happens before seeing the Judge, or they accept my offer of the small loss. The worst I'm looking at prior to the final decision would be to stand my ground in court to the best of my ability and let the system decide..?
> I'm bringing the facts (the right) to the table of his opinion(s) (I thinks, and I'm pretty sure, or I don't know what else would've caused it, etc..). This judgement is nothing more than words of both sides. I'm still worried about being behind from the get go..by being the defendant, and by simply being a contractor in the court room of homeowners..!? :-/


I hate to beat a dead horse guy, but [email protected] people Pi$$ me off. The burden of proof lies with him, the "accuser" just like in a criminal case it lies with the prosecution not the defense. Furthermore, if what you've posted is 100% accurate (not saying it isn't mind you) then you'll demonstrate that you've been more than willing to solve the issue "reasonably" in an attempt to "make him whole again" this could bite you in the a$$ because "If you did nothing wrong why offer him anything?" could be the the point of view. Answer: "I was willing to take a hit to preserve my company's reputation and retain a (hopefully, by now) satisfied customer's business" My bro-in-law is a corporate attorney in TX, we talk, often, and babble on like this...often. Sheesh. Let us know what happens as I now feel like legal counsel rather than a tradesman...lol


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

MilwaukeeMike said:


> I hate to beat a dead horse guy, but [email protected] people Pi$$ me off. The burden of proof lies with him, the "accuser" just like in a criminal case it lies with the prosecution not the defense. Furthermore, if what you've posted is 100% accurate (not saying it isn't mind you) then you'll demonstrate that you've been more than willing to solve the issue "reasonably" in an attempt to "make him whole again" this could bite you in the a$$ because "If you did nothing wrong why offer him anything?" could be the the point of view. Answer: "I was willing to take a hit to preserve my company's reputation and retain a (hopefully, by now) satisfied customer's business" My bro-in-law is a corporate attorney in TX, we talk, often, and babble on like this...often. Sheesh. Let us know what happens as I now feel like legal counsel rather than a tradesman...lol


That is helpful Mike..
As my legal council..where y'all gonna be tomorrow at 6:30pm?? Sure could use ya in court..? Lol. 
I'll update y'all after the big hour...:-\
Thanks guys


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

ssroofpros said:


> That is helpful Mike..
> As my legal council..where y'all gonna be tomorrow at 6:30pm?? Sure could use ya in court..? Lol.
> I'll update y'all after the big hour...:-\
> Thanks guys


So I believe I've asked this before but...
Does this homeowner have a case without a video, picture or witness of my crew supposably damaging his soffit rake with a "roofing shovel"..? All he's bringing with him is an opinion "nobodys been up that High since y'all roofed my house, and it wasn't there before".


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

ssroofpros said:


> So I believe I've asked this before but...
> Does this homeowner have a case without a video, picture or witness of my crew supposably damaging his soffit rake with a "roofing shovel"..? All he's bringing with him is an opinion "nobodys been up that High since y'all roofed my house, and it wasn't there before".


I am sure he has pictures and probably an expert who will testify. Probably the guy that gave him the $350 bid to fix it.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Depends on if the judge gets lucky tonight, or tomorrow a.m....and if a roofer recently screwed him over. 

If the h/o's claim is no one's been up on the roof in forever...then ask how he would know how it was your guys or not....no one was up on the roof prior to your work, to see if the damage was done prior to you being on the roof...works both ways.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

at all


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Mike Finley said:


> Actually, guys like roofpuss here make my life so much easier. Just push em a little bit, bluff em and make em cry and they will roll over and give you anything you want. The more guys like him in business the easier it is for guys like me. This thread is a roll call showing you just how many people who when push comes to shove they fall over at the first sign of difficulty.


Hey Mike. This is a place people discuss their everyday questions/scenarios . All posts are appreciated as there own. Chill out and help out..that's what C. T. Is all about wright..? 
I do appreciate the advice, but haten on others sharen their two since ain't wright bro. 
I've gotten a little backbone from yours?!
Where I've picked through the other posts (some more than others) and gathered allot of helpful information.?
Easy on what u say my friend...u never know when u might just need a little advice in an unfamiliar scenario..? 
Take care Mike...have a great '11


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Go do the best you can tomorrow, you'll learn _a lot_, and _maybe_ even come out on the winning end.

If you haven't already drawn this conclusion, get some good pocket cameras and a couple of "Flip" HD video cameras ($150)...and shoot the shiite outta every project, before, during and after.

And let every potential client/client, know that that's part of your process.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Mike Finley said:


> Actually, guys like roofpuss here make my life so much easier. Just push em a little bit, bluff em and make em cry and they will roll over and give you anything you want. The more guys like him in business the easier it is for guys like me. This thread is a roll call showing you just how many people who when push comes to shove they fall over at the first sign of difficulty.


For the record Mike... I'm 23 years old and I run a roofing company that did 2million last year. 1/2 of that was my trained sales guys taking bull**** work from cocky companies.? Maybe nothing like you did last year but I'm proud of that.? You get more bees with honey...wright.? Just in case u referred to me as roofpussy, I have court tomorrow at 6:30pm because I stood my ground Mr.Mike...and mostly DAMN proud of it!
Although I do agree with standing up for myself and that's where I'm at so far, just needed help figuring out how to defend myself in an unfamiliar scenario such as court..?


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

J F said:


> Go do the best you can tomorrow, you'll learn a lot, and maybe even come out on the winning end.
> 
> If you haven't already drawn this conclusion, get some good pocket cameras and a couple of "Flip" HD video cameras ($150)...and shoot the shiite outta every project, before, during and after.
> 
> And let every potential client/client, know that that's part of your process.


Yes sir J F...! I do now take before and afters...of course. I just had an opening year to my families business an this was the only real SCREWUP, boy was it a screwup... 
Thanks for the help J F. I'm gonna let all know how it turns up tomorrow. Y'all will have a huge part in how turns out..for better, or for worse...for better let's hope !
Take care


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

There is a message in here somewhere. Thanks for posting up this thread for everyone to learn from. I agree wholeheartedly with Mike that you need to defend your company and honor.. you did nothing wrong, you need to go through this to learn from it.. best way to learn. If you let this guy bend you over, you may be stuck like that and others will follow. Buck up and stand strong. Even, EVEN if you loose, which I am not saying you will.. even if.. you will be able to figure out a way to see these snakes coming a mile away. I am sure that you can think back and all those red flags pop out.. and your gut probably told you to watch your back.. well.. next time it happens you will be the wiser. I have made some stupid mistakes, got taken advantage of by a friend's mom.. yes I let it happen, but has not happened since.

So when is the court date?!

EDIT: oh tomorrow.. give em hell :thumbsup:


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

btw.. if it was an old "crack" the inner "crack" should be greyed if it is composite or wood.. if old enough it will have rot.. more than likely. I would have asked to see it first hand.. and check out the Olympic Stylus Tough 8010.. 14mp camera with 720p hd. Bout $300ish bucks.. and that fugger is tougher than hell.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

ssroofpros said:


> You get more bees with honey...wright.? Just in case u referred to me as roofpussy, I have court tomorrow at 6:30pm because I stood my ground Mr.Mike...and mostly DAMN proud of it!
> Although I do agree with standing up for myself and that's where I'm at so far, just needed help figuring out how to defend myself in an unfamiliar scenario such as court..?


Yes, more bees with honey. 

I would have tried to diffuse this when he first complained by getting the soffit fixed one way or another. Call it having no backbone/me being another 'roofpussy', but it's sad that some lawyer is gonna make 10x what it would have cost to just fix it and have a happy customer. 

Even if you win today, consider that for $350 you could have eliminated a potentially big threat (ever heard of wal mart sucks dot com?) to your company's reputation. We've paid way more than that for it in the past...


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

2 million a year at 23? Damn. Got me beat.

You're worrying about $350? Let's figure there are roughly 260 working days a year. You make around 7k a day! AND you're worried about even 5k? Get the hell out of here. 

If this was true, you would be way to busy to deal with this and just not pay the $350 or whatever even if you didn't do it.

Don't B.S.

Want to come out with the truth now?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

ssroofpros said:


> For the record Mike... I'm 23 years old and I run a roofing company that did 2million last year. 1/2 of that was my trained sales guys taking bull**** work from cocky companies.? ..?


That's good to hear. So if you fight the good fight every day, stand in front of homeowners, run a company, deal with a sales force, do everything that takes balls to do..

Why the f**K would you be scared of this little piss ant and waivered back and forth and at one time posted that you were going to try to settle again?

See why I rode you?



ssroofpros said:


> I have court tomorrow at 6:30pm because I stood my ground Mr.Mike...and mostly DAMN proud of it!..


If now you're damn proud of it why are you getting on me for prodding you to do it?



ssroofpros said:


> Although I do agree with standing up for myself and that's where I'm at so far, just needed help figuring out how to defend myself in an unfamiliar scenario such as court..?


Now don't start back peddling again. The only part you got rode on was the settling part. I never gave you any sh*t for trying to get help on an unfamilar situation such as court.

I'm glad you have now decided to stand up for yourself. You're only 23, like most 23 year olds you probably will benefit greatly from this experience. Nothing better then the satisfaction of watching this guy get put in his place. 

If you did no wrong you have nothing to fear.

You were getting a lot of bull sh*t advice about settling, giving in. If you do follow through and beat this guy, you'll learn a very powerful life lesson and hopefully it stays with you and you'll benefit forever in your life as a business owner, you'll realize that there will always be some a-hole that will try you on, that's just part of what goes with being in business and dealing with enough of the public. What separates you will be if you bend, break or stand tall. Bending over to intimidation and extortion which is what this guy is all about is a short term gain, in the long term you die a little bit every time you do this, you end up like the guys here who rationalize how $350 loss is better then $5000 loss. What a bunch of BS. 

Hopefully you're now on the right path and hopefully you'll present your case in a way that allows you to win it, you'll get rewarded by the system for doing the right thing.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

J F said:


> From the read, the op probably doesn't have a war chest, which makes it _infinitely_ more able to be all bluss and bluster...and mean it, if you can afford the consequences.
> 
> Are you a business man, or a *******? And do you know when you need to choose between the two?
> 
> ...


First off, we aren't talking about everybody, as in telling everybody to let yourself get sued. Where did you get that from?

We are talking about this one incident in an open and shut small claims court case with the most at stake - $5000.00

2nd don't project upon me anything about having a war chest and being able to financally take it.

You know nothing about my history and if I've been abel to take it, or not and make moral stands upon only being able to take it or not.

My ethical compass is set and doesn't waiver based on the circumstances. I set my ethics and they aren't effected by a customer, profit, getting caught or anything else.

Whether I could financially take it or not has nothing to do with me and doing what's right because it's right. 

Unlike some I don't pick and choose fights based only on being given a guaranteed winning out come. If I did that I'd never have gone in business for myself.

The only bad advice given here is for this young man to not stand up for himself when he's right and facing extortion.

Even if he goes to court and looses on a technicality or something else, the experience is invaluable for this man to have gained it. 

This is all about a $200 repair, it's nothing compared to what may be facing him later in his life. For a 23 year old, nothing better then standing up for himself against this bully, hopefully he wins the case and learns that there is a different path in life, a path that he can choose his outcomes by standing up for what he believes in and avoiding the easy way out. That's what leaders do. He's a leader of his company, he leads his team, this is no different. He's choosing to lead now by facing this guy.

Nothing was ever gained in this country by taking the easy way out. Every gain we've made as Americans was through taking the right path, not the easy one. This country today is facing its trouble exactly because of too many people forgetting these lessons. Thank God we had leaders in the past who took the right path, the hard path and stopped men like Hitler. Presidents who were willing to fight instead of appease.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Good lord...this is about bring hitler down now. :laughing:

They'll be reading about this court case in the history books.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Being smart business-wise, doesn't mean taking the "easy way" out, it means being able to put aside your feelings and making it about business.


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## larryb (May 23, 2008)

ssroofpros,

If the guy's attorney even tries to present a case of $5k for pain and suffering, it's likely the Judge will throw him out of the court room for making the attempt. When all is said and done, you'll get past this and be better prepared for the next one. Strengthen your contracts and your warranties and document everything on each new job including taking pictures. It may take a bit of addl time but it's cheap insurance. Just the nature of the business that we all run across those types on occassion. Good luck!

On several occassions when I encountered similar, I put the pics and other evidence on line with a thorough explanation. The red faced HO's (2 over time) did a quick about face once they realized that the truth was on line for the whole world to see. Made the problem go away like magic. Done it with insurance adjusters who attempted to underpay as well.


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## MilwaukeeMike (Feb 15, 2011)

J F said:


> From the read, the op probably doesn't have a war chest, which makes it _infinitely_ more able to be all bluss and bluster...and mean it, if you can afford the consequences.
> 
> Are you a business man, or a *******? And do you know when you need to choose between the two?
> 
> ...


I agree with you. It sounds like a-lot of "fire & brimstone" fueled by hot air. Gramps always sayed "the dog that barks don't bite" know what I mean. "guys like him help guy's like me blah blah blah...." yeah real helpful.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Yeah, I know JF.

That's why we are where we are at today. Why Walmart is the biggest employer, why they have a policy of sue me, why 2 million dollars spent lobbying gets you a government contract to deliver an inferior product at tax payers exspense... etc... etc...

Funny how there are so many students of business suddenly when it comes this topic, but none to be found when it comes to actually making a profit in construction.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

And don't get me wrong, I strongly believe in standing up for yourself. 

Mike doesn't seem (at least in this thread) to be willing to differentiate where sometimes it would be better to nip something in the bud pretty easily, being logical, and being a "pussy".

I agree with Mike most of the time, but not with this one circumstance.

Obviously the op has to go to court now, and he may prevail. I'm guessing next time, even if he wins today, he'll either:

a) Be much better prepared with pics and video in his defense, which would more than likely stop this bs before it begins.

or 

b) Spend the $100-$200 to fix something, even if he knows it's bs, knowing you don't run into this kind of client often, and also knowing it's not worth having to go to court over and dealing with the bs and internal stress it can bring.

Hopefully he wins today.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Bottom line is roofpro went from this



ssroofpros said:


> Well...I'm gonna offer a settlement tomorrow, which is the day before court, and as some have posted "the 11th hour". The best of this ordeal would be that they back down prior to the mediation process I've been told happens before seeing the Judge, or they accept my offer of the small loss. The worst I'm looking at prior to the final decision would be to stand my ground in court to the best of my ability and let the system decide..?


To this:



ssroofpros said:


> Just in case u referred to me as roofpussy, I have court tomorrow at 6:30pm because I stood my ground Mr.Mike...and mostly DAMN proud of it!


As a result of me pissing him off and making him think about all this for a moment. I'll be prouder of that then if I'd given him the advice to bend over and let somebody push him around because its 'good business'

Good for you kid, hopefully it all works out. But even if it doesn't you're ahead of 9 out of 10 others here because you had the balls to stand up for yourself. :thumbsup:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

I _do_ like how you've now turned into the nurturing father now, Mike. :laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

JF - I'll just say one more thing here.



J F said:


> And don't get me wrong, I strongly believe in standing up for yourself.
> 
> Mike doesn't seem (at least in this thread) to be willing to differentiate where sometimes it would be better to nip something in the bud pretty easily, being logical, and being a "pussy".
> 
> ...


Everything I've said is in regard to the situation that exists. Nipping it in the bud doesn't exist as an option, it never did. The kid tried that. Whether I agree with that or not I never even said on this thread once.

Everything I've written is in regard to the actual cicumstances of the legal action.

The kid is being sued by a homeowner. He has a court date. The kid tried to settle things prior to the homeowner suing him.

Keep in mind the homeowner went from wanting $350 to repair to $*5000*.

That's a key issue here. That's a homeowner trying to *punish* and *intimidate* this kid. (and apparently its very effective based on how many went to - damn, look out! $5000!!!! better settle, just fix it.... $5000!!! Damn!!!!!! WoW $5000!!!!!! you should have just done what he wanted, $5000!!! Oh my God!!!! -- that figure is just something this A-hole picked out of thin air. What if he'd picked $500,000, you guys would have been dropping off your first born?)

From that point on has been what I've commented on.

Keep in mind how important that $5000 figure is. If the homeowner had been suing him for the $350 instead what would that tell you? The homeowner is trying to intimidate the kid through the "now see what you're facing now? Could have paid me the $350, now it's going to be $5000!"

Total bullsh*t. That tells me everything I need to know about the homeowner, and I stand by what I've said. I'd never back down from that guy no matter what after that.

So JF, there is was no nipping in the bud choice, the discussion on my part has been only in regard to the choices after the lawsuit, and as far as you believe in standing up for yourself? Well, I'll take your word for it, I didn't see any indication of it here. Everything I read from you has been the opposite.


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## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

First off, thanks everybody; this is a good read. I think it comes down to value judgements.

If it is about *pure* principle, then go to court. I said earlier that it looks like the claim inflated to 5000 dollars is a ruse that could fold or be thrown out.

It's reasonable to take the other tact too; time is money and this isn't worth the time wasted for what was originally chump change. Isn't it a sign of a good manager to avoid such pitfalls?

An attorney will go to court, but many of them will prefer to broker acceptable deals with known outcomes.
Going to court has an element of risk and gambling of the judge seeing it your way. There are no guarantees, ask any atty.

As someone who has trained for and observed a few mediations for small claims I can tell you that there is often discovery that occurs in court or in mediation. That means that one or both parties continued to court without actually having the full information, misunderstood something, had it wrong, were lacking the paperwork or proof that the other had provided but that they were unaware of; OOPs!!!

IF you lose in court there will be a record of a court ruling against you. This can have various negative effects, but on credit rating in particular. (or so I have read)

Nobody is right or wrong per se. It's a matter of priorities and how you rank them. I know that many managers are sticklers about their employees use of time. Is it reasonable to also question; what is the best use of a managers time? I think their time is best spent putting out fires, lining up work and improving the business.

I don't really disagree Mike. You put up a good argument, have sound ethics and reasoning and there is no question that going to court will be a useful and educational experience. Both parties will come away from this smarter than they went in.

Willy


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> So JF, there is was no nipping in the bud choice, the discussion on my part has been only in regard to the choices after the lawsuit, and as far as you believe in standing up for yourself? Well, I'll take your word for it, I didn't see any indication of it here. *Everything I read from you has been the opposite.*


Really? Interesting. Do you mean "everything", or the few posts on this thread? Just curious.

I totally agree that the "nipping in the bud" is not for this op's situation...that train left the station a looong time ago. That comment was made for others or for the op in future situations.

Either way, the op will be much better prepared if he runs into anything similar again.


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## MilwaukeeMike (Feb 15, 2011)

*Side tracked...*

Soooo, back to the subject, how'd it go roof man ?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm only referring to this thread.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

:laughing: He's been incarcerated...he'll get back to us in 90 days or so. :w00t:

Or he's out celebrating.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

Truth is, it _could_ have been caused by the roofing operation. If the supposed crack was in the rake soffit, somewhere around mid-span, the leveraging action of a tear off shovel could have put enough force and related flex on the rake rafter to compromise the soffit material. Just saying it's _*not impossible.*
_ 
OP is running a business with a supposed cash flow of $40k per week. He gets a call back which he can remedy for $200 (exactimate) and can't see even the possibility that his crew may have caused the problem. This is not a case of principle, it's a case of inexperience. It's a 23 year old who did not know how to handle the customer or his business in the first place. It may have been possible to settle it right then with some compromise from both sides. 

Good luck getting out of court winning this one. Even if the rake soffit was previously compromised, no one made a note of it. There is enough of a possibility that it was caused by the roofers for an award of judgment, but not likely $5k

I don't know how well the OP told his side of the story or how well he related the customer's progression from complaint to lawsuit, but I think some of the dialog was left out. HO paid for the job with no complaints in the first place. From this he becomes a raging, litigious bully with $$ in his eyes? Is it possible our OP has not disclosed the actual discourse between a (possibly) middle aged HO and a cocky 23 year old.

BTW, what have we got here as far as real and accurate information? It doesn't seem like much.

Unless the damage can be shown to be a previous condition, and if the HO wants to call me on it, I would have to accept the possibility and own up. That's principle too.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

That's the problem with having employees or subs, anytime you progress to the point that you aren't physically there doing all the work, you can't ever say 100% what happened. You have to rely on a mixture of your past experience, building science, logic, your judgement of the clients personality, your employees history, your foreman etc...

I'm faced with this exact issue this week. I had to go look at an expensive front door with a mark in the wood. Who did it? My guys? One of 4 subs? Was it there before and the homeowner only now is seeing it because they are aware construction is going on?

An amiacable solution was reached. I'll fix it and eat the cost. (amicable- always means the owner gets to pay for it). But the homeowner was understanding, kind, reasonable, didn't make a big deal out of it and even intimated that there was no way to really know when it happened. For that type of customer I'll go out of my way for them and take a little nick to the profits for the good of the situation.

However, had the homeowner gone ape sh*t and started threatening legal action and wanting to sue me for 20X the damages. I'd probably be more than willing to take him on and let the chips fall, cause I don't parlay to that type of crap. A homeowner's attitude to me matters a lot. I guess nobodies going to accuse me of being a smart business person, but to me business is nothing difficult or exciting, tomorrow I'll collect another check, pay another bill, move the business forward towards its goals, and if I have some douche trying to walk over me cause he mistakenly thinks he can, well I might choose to dig in my heals and take the financially incorrect route on principles alone. That's just the way I am and because I can look back over the long run and see where it's gotten me, I have no problem with taking 1 step backwards if it means taking 5 steps forward as a result. Lack of respect, intimidation, that sort of thing doesn't go over well. And I'll tell you, there is business like and there is the opposite. As the leader of your business, if you have employees, you need to leed them. Leading them sometimes means drawing a line in the sand or defending one of them over a customer, they need to know that they are working for somebody they can respect and somebody that has their back.

But like Latone brings up, it's really difficult to have a crystal ball and be able to tell how something happened if you aren't personally there to have witnessed it.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I am with you now Mike. I may have misinterpreted some of your earlier replies, and you may have done the same to mine. Both times that I went to court, the other party was being unreasonable and were playing hardball. The first time was totally a principal thing and I was happy with the result and learned a lot as well. The second time was a dispute over a used car that I bought that was misrepresented by the buyer. I knew it was a longshot to win that one, but he was a total dirtball and I was just happy to inconvenience him with court.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

And I have to add, Latone...great post, whether anyone agrees or disagrees with it, very clearly and concisely put.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

griz said:


> Yes you can. Just don't let it back fire on you.
> 
> First rule in court:
> 
> *Never ask a question you don't have the answer to.*


That is the second rule.

The first rule is to know what the judges drink of choice is


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

DPCII said:


> That is the second rule.
> 
> The first rule is to know what the judges drink of choice is


Subset of rule one, is to have a bottle delivered to him before you case is called!!!:whistling


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

:laughing:


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

If he takes a replica of the roof with him to court, why not also take a pic of the court room with the wrong date on the camera to show that the date on the pic may not be relative. That and the exhorbiant amount being sued for may show a pattern, or at least, cast a shadow of doubt on the ho.

I have posted a few pics, most of the dates on the pics were wrong.

Little late now, I guess.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Better yet, take a pic of a calendar and a clock in the mediation room/court room with the date and time altered on the camera.

Go Perry Masom or Matlock on his ars!

I'm thinking it was said the ho had a dated pic of the damage.

I am also wondering why he just happens to have a pic of damage 3 stories up that can't be seen from the ground, unless I misread something.


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## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

boman47k said:


> Little late now, I guess.


Either party can settle right up until the point before they are heard in most jurisdictions, but *don't* settle for a handshake and verbal agreement. 

It should be in writing about the;

1) costs incurred up to date (legal fees, serving fees, atty fees)
2) resolution of the actual damages in contention (how is the damage for the soffit being resolved?)
3) how any payments are to be made
4) a hold harmless, a lien waiver, further warranty, etc. provision

A mediator can write this up and it becomes a legal and *enforceable* agreement if it is not adhered to. It also avoids a legal record of a settlement since you were not seen by a judge and a verdict rendered.

-W
*EDIT; mediators may not be available to mediate each case. They are often volunteer.*


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Am I the only one confused?

This guy does TWO MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR IN SALES.

Even if he worked every day of the year, he still makes almost $5,500 a day.

How many of you would waste all this time from being able to run your 2 million dollar a year company rather than just writing a small check for $350 dollars?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Maybe his _costs_ of doing business were $3 mil...:laughing:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Am I the only one confused?
> 
> This guy does TWO MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR IN SALES.
> 
> ...


I agree...or at least sick _your _attorney on the opposing attorney.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Hope the op gets on here tonight and gives us the scoop, this is worse than waiting for the next episode of Lost (before it ended, of course).


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## W-Tinc (Feb 15, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Am I the only one confused?
> 
> This guy does TWO MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR IN SALES.
> 
> ...


 
Theres not really any direct relationship to how much he grosses and how much he puts in his pocket at the end of the year. I would have to admit when I was his age there would not be much left at the end of the day regardless of how many big sales I had:jester:


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

ssroofpros said:


> The Lawsuit...According to the homeowner, this was caused by our re roof. He states that my workers shoved a "roofing shovel" (pitchfork) threw the sheathing, therefore puncturing the rake soffit...causing this (as shown)


A picture is worth a thousand words. Looks like someone could have jammed an extension ladder into it or possibly one of the tear off crew punched through some rotten sheathing and didn't tell you. If you didn't see it on the first walk around, and didn't see it on the last walk around, and don't have date stamped pictures to prove it, you will have a tough row to hoe. As someone said earlier, go back with a tall ladder, get real close and take a picture. You should be able to see when you are up there if it was pushed in or out. As the old saying goes, the last one to touch it, owns it. I'm thinking the Judge is going to go with the homeowner on this one. jmo.


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

that's a good point. Any chance the guys were clowning around on the job and damaged it while you weren't looking? I can't see how that could happen from your guys otherwise. I still think the HO is lying though, I don't think he would've taken 2 weeks to spot that one.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

jmiller said:


> I'd be careful bringing up the pocketed money if you had to submit a completion form to the ins. co. with an inflated dollar amount for him to get his depreciation check.


His insurance adjuster never left the ladder. He said "yep looks like hail to me" and asked me if I would diagram the roof and I said I already have, he then asked if I had Xactimate and I said yes. So he asked me to put the summary together and to fax it. 3weeks later he sent the homeowner the RCV check in full less the deductible. There was no depreciation with held


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

skyhook said:


> A picture is worth a thousand words. Looks like someone could have jammed an extension ladder into it or possibly one of the tear off crew punched through some rotten sheathing and didn't tell you. If you didn't see it on the first walk around, and didn't see it on the last walk around, and don't have date stamped pictures to prove it, you will have a tough row to hoe. As someone said earlier, go back with a tall ladder, get real close and take a picture. You should be able to see when you are up there if it was pushed in or out. As the old saying goes, the last one to touch it, owns it. I'm thinking the Judge is going to go with the homeowner on this one. jmo.


The area is 3stories up. The slope of the back yard is to extreme to set a ladder. The biggest ladder this crew had was a 28'. We had one ladder set up on the 1story front slope for access. I was on the site most of the time and a project manager was there the whole time. 
The picture shown is after his repair guy had manipulated the damage to get a piece of the wood for the HO to have as evidence. He thinks the wood is "perfectly good strong wood"...where as u can briefly make out, the wood has turned (been exposed to moisture).


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## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

ssroofpros said:


> The area is 3stories up. The slope of the back yard is to extreme to set a ladder. The biggest ladder this crew had was a 28'. We had one ladder set up on the 1story front slope for access. I was on the site most of the time and a project manager was there the whole time.


In other words the peak is 35-40 foot up in the air? It's _even_ higher than I thought.
No one is going to be jumping on tools at the elevation so close to the edge. They are far more likely to be attacking the shingles gingerly and possibly a little to the side, especially 6-8" from the edge on a steep slope. (speaking of....what is the pitch?)
You should videotape your workers stripping a steep roof near an edge. I doubt the force could perforate solid sheathing.



ssroofpros said:


> The picture shown is a*fter his repair guy had manipulated the damage* (_my emph, willy_)to get a piece of the wood for the HO to have as evidence. He thinks the wood is "perfectly good strong wood"...where as u can briefly make out, the wood has turned (been exposed to moisture).


 (more _like_ exposed to brown paint-W)

Your point...... the damage was so slight that they had to accentuate the damage. Where is the before picture? They took one and it didn't photograph I'd guess. After they retouched the damage it doesn't reflect what you did; rather, *what they did*.

The fact that you missed in in the walk through speaks that the damage was not there or insignificant. *Did they call you to inspect the original damage?* It sounds like you were called in to look at the modified enhanced damage.

IE; If the damage to the car didn't look serious enough, so a hypothetical owner also drove it into a tree to make sure he got a higher claim.

You might suggest the guy is out to milk people to fix older existing damage and is willing to modify the damage to make sure he gets it.

(PS..... hard to tell from your description if I'm reading this right, but from what I read. this is an interpretation)

best,
Willy


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Willy is said:


> In other words the peak is 35-40 foot up in the air? It's even higher than I thought.
> No one is going to be jumping on tools at the elevation so close to the edge. They are far more likely to be attacking the shingles gingerly and possibly a little to the side, especially 6-8" from the edge on a steep slope. (speaking of....what is the pitch?)
> You should videotape your workers stripping a steep roof near an edge. I doubt the force could perforate solid sheathing.
> 
> ...


12/12 is the pitch of this gable


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

FWIW I've NEVER seen the sheathing rot so near the peak of a 12/12. Not enough water hitting/sitting to rot even completely exposed plywood there. 

If the plywood never came off, wasn't rotten, your tallest ladder won't reach that height, AND you can prove these things in court (and maybe have some idea of a plausible other explanation as to the cause like someone said before)- you just might win.

So where in the country is all this going down? Or did I miss that?


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

ssroofpros said:


> The area is 3stories up. The slope of the back yard is to extreme to set a ladder. The biggest ladder this crew had was a 28'. We had one ladder set up on the 1story front slope for access. I was on the site most of the time and a project manager was there the whole time.
> The picture shown is after* his repair guy had manipulated the damage* to get a piece of the wood for the HO to have as evidence. He thinks the wood is "perfectly good strong wood"...where as u can briefly make out, the wood has turned (been exposed to moisture).


At a bench trial, proof of that could go a long way.


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## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

If I were to infer that the 28' ladder was used on the gutter area of the house, and since this IS a 3 story house..... then isn't that soffit area pretty high up?

I'm also guessing that since it is an old house and it appears to be wood that a larger area of wood might be replaces in the soffit area, even a smaller patch might require some blocking added, several coats of paint, and how much in materials?

I believe your earlier quote that you offered to repair the damage was $180.00 ish?

All I can say is for that elevation..... it is conceivable that the work could not be done w/ a ladder, might have an element of danger, *may* need scaffolding (I dunno; I can't see the entire site), one worker or two to do the repair?

That seems as though it could be a _bare bones_ peace offering, especially if it were possible that your crew could have done it, and right on the tail of a properly bid possibly successful and profitable job.

If you could do it over now..... would you have just paid them the original offer they initially provided? I'm not familiar w/ the bidding program but does it plug in some of these factors that may have brought your estimate counter offer higher?

best,
Willy


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

jmiller said:


> FWIW I've NEVER seen the sheathing rot so near the peak of a 12/12. Not enough water hitting/sitting to rot even completely exposed plywood there.
> 
> If the plywood never came off, wasn't rotten, your tallest ladder won't reach that height, AND you can prove these things in court (and maybe have some idea of a plausible other explanation as to the cause like someone said before)- you just might win.
> 
> So where in the country is all this going down? Or did I miss that?


 That's my weaknesses... I don't know how it happened exactly, but I do know it wasn't the re roof because of the many reasons such as the location itself, and all the facts listed above. All I've got for possibilities is the fact he's had critter problems in the past, and he had another roofing co repair a leak problem he was having..both were prior to our work. He also has had some repairs done to the brick (siding) on the front of this gable..he said it was due to a foundation issue..? That's all I've really got buddy...


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

jmiller said:


> FWIW I've NEVER seen the sheathing rot so near the peak of a 12/12. Not enough water hitting/sitting to rot even completely exposed plywood there.
> 
> If the plywood never came off, wasn't rotten, your tallest ladder won't reach that height, AND you can prove these things in court (and maybe have some idea of a plausible other explanation as to the cause like someone said before)- you just might win.
> 
> So where in the country is all this going down? Or did I miss that?


We're in Ga.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

Really, the *ONLY* thing I see in your favor is that the HO's agent tampered with the area. You say he has no before pictures? That's convenient.

Think about it from the judge's perspective - 


The damage appears to come from above
Your workers were above
No documentation of the problem before you did the work
No other (apparent) explanation for the damage (not that this is your burden, but if you had one it would go a long way)
It is in a high location, that may easily go unnoticed (obviously it did go unnoticed, because you missed it while you were there originally)
Aside from the tampering, and possibly the HO's inconsistent testimony it _looks_ like you guys were the only explanation.

Hell, I have no idea. Just stating the facts as you have posted.

Can you subpoena the critter guy? :laughing:


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Willy is said:


> If I were to infer that the 28' ladder was used on the gutter area of the house, and since this IS a 3 story house..... then isn't that soffit area pretty high up?
> 
> I'm also guessing that since it is an old house and it appears to be wood that a larger area of wood might be replaces in the soffit area, even a smaller patch might require some blocking added, several coats of paint, and how much in materials?
> 
> ...


We never had to get to this area from the ground..for any reason.? The height is 3stories in the rear because of the basement. The front has 1story access that allows you to access the entire roof. 

If I had it all back..I don't know if I would or not sir..? For the same reasons I refused to do it in the beginning..we didn't do it, and where would this HO draw the line on misc home repairs..? This is an older home that's had multiple issues, and that will continue to have issues here and there...just as any other home..? I'm not a stubborn young man sir..I'm actually very understanding..even when, at times I shouldn't be. For me, this was an unusual move and not something I do, or something I've ever done in the past. Like I've said before..this is the first suit against me and my first time in civil court. I just couldn't let this guy do this...I had to stand my ground


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Mr Latone said:


> Really, the ONLY thing I see in your favor is that the HO's agent tampered with the area. You say he has no before pictures? That's convenient.
> 
> Think about it from the judge's perspective -
> 
> ...


What happened to the plaintiff having to see it happen and have evidence of it, or have a video or pictures of us actually damaging that soffit..? I never would've thought someone could go into court just talkin and pointing their finger..? 
This guys got;

a picture of soffit damage, 

we re roofed his house 23days before this was seen for the first time, 

prob will have the guy who repaired that soffit as a witness (me knowing the HO, that repair guy prob couldn't get the job without agreeing to appear in court for him).

Is that enough for him to win..?


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't know dude, personally, I think you have it in the bag; and good for you for standing up for yourself! Remember one thing though: *NEVER *underestimate your enemy. Make sure you're really prepared for anything he can throw at you. You see it time and time again, those people who think they "have it in the bag" always get caught off guard and lose.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

ssroofpros said:


> That's all I've really got buddy...


To be honest I can't figure out a scenario that would cause that damage other than from above. You're a roofer, but you expect some other trade to have had a ladder up that high/ been on the roof above the damage? Unlikely.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> I don't know dude, personally, I think you have it in the bag; and good for you for standing up for yourself! Remember one thing though: NEVER underestimate your enemy. Make sure you're really prepared for anything he can throw at you. You see it time and time again, those people who think they "have it in the bag" always get caught off guard and lose.


Thanks for the positivity..always good to hear what you wanna here now and then. 
Like i recently posted..I went to court on the 17th early to speak with the plaintiff and his council due to their interest in offering a crapy settlement. Amongst many things said, I proved a point to the confused HO when he shared his idea of what happened by eliminating it completely. After that he began to mumble lies as we approached the court room due to his anger of, what I think was denial and anger..
So I'm afraid he'll have no other option but to play the immoral "lie card" to have a chance..this man is STUBBORN my friend..! That's the only thing I feel like I'll have a hard time preparing for. A man with close to 45+ years of lifes knowledge that I've yet to obtain at 23, and many tricks up his sleeve.


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## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

Hey. I'm not switching sides. I think I've provided some rationale that it is not your fault.

*Your case is that; *
1) there were many past issues and there will continue to be. 
2) The damage is circumstantial to your work.
3) it was *not* visible at the walk through at completion.
4) your foreman's affidavit that your crew did no damage to the sheathing, did not use that side for loading, ladder use, etc
5) that squirrels do live in soffits and damage them, and the *owner has had squirrel issues* in the past.
6) your workers could not physically perforate the sheathing w/ the tools you use; you've never had this issue before.
7) the damage did not exist at the walk through or it would have been brought to your attention, any issues were taken care of.
8) you were not shown the damage in question before a third party worked on the area, *nor* have you been shown evidence of damage before someone else messed it up; painted, pried, hammered and altered the damage you are accused of.
9) failure to notify your beforehand, failure to provide proof of the damage or allow you examination or redress before he had a third party work on the soffit ended your obligation. You aren't responsible to repair that parties repair.
10) as an act of good faith you would still offer the full amount and original amount your estimation program provided; $180.XX _(optional_, but suggested. You want to appear reasonable, not inflexible)

good luck,
willy


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

A very good point, the customer probably did a good walk around before writing the final payment. Was the final payment timely ? 
If the damage was done from above, it would have pushed the soffit down. Did someone go else up there and push it back up ?


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

jmiller said:


> To be honest I can't figure out a scenario that would cause that damage other than from above. You're a roofer, but you expect some other trade to have had a ladder up that high/ been on the roof above the damage? Unlikely.


That's not really what I'm expecting..? I did nothing but R&R the roof. I inspected nothing more than the roof, we did a walk around..fixed his minor concerns and then collected the check. Whatever happened prior to our work done there, after (23 days) our work completed there, has absolutely nothing to do with my company. If there's a workmanship or material related problem..we will address, inspect and possibly determine the relative issue and if that issue(s) is in fact workmanship related we will repair/fix that issue..if it's a material related problem..we will address, inspect and possibly determine the possible issue(s) and use our resources to have that issue resolved (even though a material issue or warrantee is not our responsibility, but the manufactures) or direct the HO to the manufacture and assist the HO with any further necessary steps to resolve the process to the best of our ability.
The decking above has no damage to it, was not replaced because it was not necessary (nailable surface). How else could we have done this damage without getting through the decking first.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

joasis said:


> What you do now is document this exchange, and any witnesses....same deal. Document in detail. What the plaintiff's attorney did was illegal, and a violation of the cannon of ethics. I would not be surprised if you could get a hearing in front of the same judge, that lawyer would wish he could have settled for you.


What would it be considered as...suit, criminal/do I get authorities involved, or would it be something I'd report to the state BAR.?


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

Congrats. It takes a lot to stand behind your principles.

I'm sure the $200-300 fix might have saved you a lot of aggrivation but it might have just opened the door for this a$$ to rake you over the coals some more.

Good on ya!


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Sar-Con said:


> Congrats. It takes a lot to stand behind your principles.
> 
> I'm sure the $200-300 fix might have saved you a lot of aggrivation but it might have just opened the door for this a$$ to rake you over the coals some more.
> 
> Good on ya!


Thanks! And thanks for that last part...allot of folks have laughed at just that.the $ amt. It wasn't the few hundred $ I was worried about, or fighting for..it was my pride in doing wright, not taking the wrongful blame.. and what I felt was to possibly come. Where would it'v stopped!? Look at it now..I won and there still after me!!?
Thanks C. T. - to all that helped me overcome and walk out that courtroom a WINNER!!


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Metro M & L said:


> I don't believe it until I see a pic of the judgement.:no:


If it is not illegal and won't come back on me I surely don't mind..But this is the first I've heard from you. Not that you're a bad guy or anything like that, but I've got nothing to prove to you to be honest.? Believe me...don't believe me lol whatever. I came here a while back for advice from my fellow contractors..thankfully I got advice from many (some of it I wanted to hear and some I wasn't so happy to hear), and I assured them I'd share the outcome of it all. If one of them doubt me and it's okay to show a pic of the doc. I'll do so in a second...but I can assure u that it has been a rough experience that I'm happy to put behind me, yet I took the time to follow through with the outcome..just as i said I would months ago...didn't have too, I wanted too.? 
Thanks for you interest though..I guess.?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Hey SS good go on the win in court:thumbsup:

Don't get in a dither about Metro's comment about a pic of the judgement.

Kind of a standing joke:jester: around here that it didn't happen unless a guy posts pics.:thumbsup: He's been around for awhile & just messing with you.:laughing:


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

griz said:


> Hey SS good go on the win in court:thumbsup:
> 
> Don't get in a dither about Metro's comment about a pic of the judgement.
> 
> Kind of a standing joke:jester: around here that it didn't happen unless a guy posts pics.:thumbsup: He's been around for awhile & just messing with you.:laughing:


Hey thanx Griz!! I know u were in the mix and I mean no disrespect to Metro. I hope that's understood.? 
I would LOVE to post this "trophy" here!! If there's nothing wrong with that (C. T. Reg and (or) legality recourse) I'll do it now.? 
Already took the pic..shhhhhhhh


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Feels good..I hope all saw


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

ssroofpros,thank you for fighting the good fight. When people like yourself stand up it makes taking a stab at a contractor less appealing. Congrats on the win!


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

:handshake: METRO.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

WildWill said:


> ssroofpros,thank you for fighting the good fight. When people like yourself stand up it makes taking a stab at a contractor less appealing. Congrats on the win!


Thanks WildWill! I hope this encourages our market..don't get me wrong though!! I wouldn't recommend fighting every fight..even if you're wright!? It's so hard to bite the bullet when you thrive to be the best...not the biggest, and your somehow called out. Understand your clients!!! Very big part of why I took it this far. 
This is a wonderful resource for all of us. 
As a matter of fact...MIKE FINDLAY here on C. T. not only pissed me off, he helped!? That goes for Bambam, JMiller, Warren and many many others throughout this thread. Sorry to all the many many I didn't mention..I just really remember the ones that made me mad!!..LOL
Everyone who said "FIGHT".. you were wright and helped ALOT!! For everyone who said settle settle settle..glad I didn't, yet it wasn't bad advice, it helped me weigh things out and will help me with future issues..? For everyone who said; you should've, or could've done this or that..It really rubbed the obvious in my face..lol, BUT it has and will be helpful in the future.? 
Point is that every single post here has, is and (or) will be helpful throughout my tenure (career)...I hope it helps others!?
Thanks again C. T. !


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Goodnight folks


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## robert c1 (Mar 11, 2007)

So what happened in court? Did you bring in the pitchfork and wreak havoc?.. Play the video?..... Or was the judge just pissed at the plaintiff from all the continuances?

Either way congratulations on a tough victory. It might not have made sense from a financial point of view but damn it must feel good.

And as I think was posted earlier, It may not balance out on the micro level to fight these little injustices but on the macro level it helps all.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

robert c1 said:


> So what happened in court? Did you bring in the pitchfork and wreak havoc?.. Play the video?..... Or was the judge just pissed at the plaintiff from all the continuances?
> 
> Either way congratulations on a tough victory. It might not have made sense from a financial point of view but damn it must feel good.
> 
> And as I think was posted earlier, It may not balance out on the micro level to fight these little injustices but on the macro level it helps all.


It DOES FEEL GOOD!!!
The whole ordeal was wrongful!? They had no logical explanation for how we did it/where responsible..there wasn't/isn't one.? The trial went on for 1hr 40mins!!! You put yourself there, for the 1st time & @ 23!!! My hands/body were shaking like CRAZY!!! 
The best feeling was that I beat his big name attorney with the Truth!! They played the lie game, it showed..and the truth WON!!!
What won it in my eyes was my my cross examination of the attorneys witness (H. O.).? I asked many questions I can't remember (I was in the moment), but I do remember asking about or work; where he answered it looks beautiful and we were great. I also asked if there were any issues he had during the walk around and he said yes. I asked if we tended to them and he said yes..so on and so forth. Thing is that this damage was not there. 
To answer your question..I wasn't able to bring in the tear-off tool, BUT I did bring in the dimensions of one..along with a pic of how it's used..for leverage. They presented as if we "chop away at the roof" as an unexperienced butcher would at a cow!?


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

The judgement is a public record. Same as a criminal case or mortgage lien - any body can look it up.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Metro M & L said:


> The judgement is a public record. Same as a criminal case or mortgage lien - any body can look it up.


Well that makes me feel better..I suppose? 
I showed ya..offered a handshake.? I have no reason to lie partner..lol


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

Metro M & L said:


> The judgement is a public record. Same as a criminal case or mortgage lien - any body can look it up.


Griz let me aware of the "ASK". I just didn't know if it would cause any issues.? 
I hope u didn't take it the wrong way? If so I apologize Metro


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

ssroofpros said:


> What would it be considered as...suit, criminal/do I get authorities involved, or would it be something I'd report to the state BAR.?


Contact your state bar association. Ask for an attorney who specializes in malpractice, and then call for an initial consult. If this happened to me, I would offer my attorney the max share, about 1/3rd in this state, to go after the guy. You might have to pay filing fees, but look at it like entertainment. And....you could win a substantial chunk of change from the plaintiff's lawyer for a little justice. And maybe see him reprimanded or his license suspended....give him a little taste of being on the wrong end of a big mouth. 


Anytime, and I mean ANYTIME an issue comes up that has a potential of having a legal element, I spend the consult fee with my attorney...before I do anything, because the legal system is not impartial, or fair. Knowing you are right...thinking you are right...and then taking a beating and paying because you didn't know the big picture is why paying $50 or even $100 for a consult is a wise expenditure. I pay for general liability, and the company has attorneys that would represent me in a situation like this....and I would still have my lawyer in the loop...because your insurance company is representing THEIR interest, and if they see an easy out, they can just as easily bail on you saying you didn't do X,Y,or Z in a workman like manner, negating their coverage and subsequent representation....so think of paying a lawyer is like an added insurance policy.


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

joasis said:


> Contact your state bar association. Ask for an attorney who specializes in malpractice, and then call for an initial consult. If this happened to me, I would offer my attorney the max share, about 1/3rd in this state, to go after the guy. You might have to pay filing fees, but look at it like entertainment. And....you could win a substantial chunk of change from the plaintiff's lawyer for a little justice. And maybe see him reprimanded or his license suspended....give him a little taste of being on the wrong end of a big mouth.
> 
> Anytime, and I mean ANYTIME an issue comes up that has a potential of having a legal element, I spend the consult fee with my attorney...before I do anything, because the legal system is not impartial, or fair. Knowing you are right...thinking you are right...and then taking a beating and paying because you didn't know the big picture is why paying $50 or even $100 for a consult is a wise expenditure. I pay for general liability, and the company has attorneys that would represent me in a situation like this....and I would still have my lawyer in the loop...because your insurance company is representing THEIR interest, and if they see an easy out, they can just as easily bail on you saying you didn't do X,Y,or Z in a workman like manner, negating their coverage and subsequent representation....so think of paying a lawyer is like an added insurance policy.


Thanks Fella!! I'd love to put this man in his place for what he's done. 
I dint want any money out of it, BUT I do want to make sure I'm the last person he can try to BULLY around. 
I pay for Insurance as well, and I decided to not file a claim from the get go because of how insurance works..they're a business and as long as you leave them alone the price won't go up lol!! It's ridiculously too expensive as it is and I have a deductible of 1K. That was 200 short of settlement, which was what every other attorney wanted to do without any info other than a briefing. 
I'll go to the Ga. BAR and ask them what I should do first..then to an attorney. I don't trust attorneys. 
Thanks again!!


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## larryb (May 23, 2008)

ssroofpros said:


> Thanks. Yeah unfortunately this ordeal has been drug out since the 1st of the year.
> Although you did worry me because of his attorneys threats after the trial..he's supposably going to keep this going if I don't settle what I've already won.? So when I read your post I thought back to that a lil bit. But I figured you were a bit behind the new posts..I hoped anyways!!? Lol.


SS, if your case was heard (and won) in Conciliation Court and the Plaintiff wasn't happy with the end result he might be able to re-file in District Court but doing so would likely be cost prohibitive. I doubt he would do that, more likely, he would place a foot in his losing attorney's, um, er, he would fire his attorney. 

If anyone sues you, you should nearly always counter sue if your claim is legitimate. That tends to balance the scales of Justice.

Congratulations :thumbup: 

"The truth never changes but it does change that which is not!"


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## ssroofpros (Jan 22, 2011)

larryb said:


> SS, if your case was heard (and won) in Conciliation Court and the Plaintiff wasn't happy with the end result he might be able to re-file in District Court but doing so would likely be cost prohibitive. I doubt he would do that, more likely, he would place a foot in his losing attorney's, um, er, he would fire his attorney.
> 
> If anyone sues you, you should nearly always counter sue if your claim is legitimate. That tends to balance the scales of Justice.
> 
> ...


I'm sure he (plaintiff) let Mr. Attorney know how he felt about the loss.!
Yeah it was certainly heard and decided by the Judge of the County Magistrate Court (Civil). The attorney kept calling it "going to trial" when he was trying to scare me into settling. 
And as far has my answer to the claim...I was told that I had no legit counterclaim, and it would only hurt my appearance if it did anything.? I'm with you though..I felt like there was no "backbone" in my defense out of the gate.? There was no consequence to their action, and nothing else for them to do but PUSH!? 
BUT like I've mentioned previously, if they somehow do get this through the system after a loss and it makes to the courtroom...I'm going to have an attorney for sure, ask to be compensated for the expense of that council and file a very fair counterclaim to make them (plaintiff) think REAL HARD about their actions (Next Move) and threats. 
Keep in mind that I DO NOT want his money and never have, BUT I don't deserve to have to spend anymore of my time on something that's already been Judged in my favor...I certainly don't deserve to have to spend additional money on an attorney (supposable required for "the next level") if they keep this going!? 
Idk..but I hope it's all over with and both parties can go on with our lives. I'm sure that's the case, yet some people are..well...some people..? Lol


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