# How do I get out of this contract?!



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Kam, not to sidetrack the thread, but as an example - I am currenty doing an $80,000 reno for a great, repeat customer. No contract. It's cost plus. They give me money, I work.

These are the best kind of clients. Requires trust, but the hell with the ones who make your life a misery.

Just tell this guy what's got to be done, be assertive but polite. If he has half a brain he may realize that he is lucky to have a contractor that knows and is willing to do things right, rather than just cover it up.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

You are talking about a few studs ($2.00ea). Next time talk it up and then give them the too good to be true price to fix it ($350) and be the hero and make an extra couple Benjamins...


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

There is also an old expression...you touch it, you own it. 

Now in today's day and age we can add to it...but a well written contract can protect us.

Now in seriously looking at your situation, you say the whole wall is damaged by termites. Are you 'operating' on that wall or just cutting in the doorway? If its just the doorway, fix that area only. Make note of the damage you found, document it and give it to the customer, have them sign for it and acknowledge it.

For the past 1/4 century or so society has become very litigious and you need to protect yourself. 

Never, never walk away from a job, always finish what you say you are going to do/contracted for.


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## kambrooks (Apr 24, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> You are talking about a few studs ($2.00ea). Next time talk it up and then give them the too good to be true price to fix it ($350) and be the hero and make an extra couple Benjamins...


I sooo tried haha. followed that exact format. He's being very tight with his budget to say the least and thinks i can just work around it as opposed to fix it. I don't want to knowingly close any of it in but I can't afford to be anymore generous than I have been. Work I do is no biggie but Ive already had to pay for some foundation repair---- different story. And above all he's the kind of a guy (I'm convinced) that knows a lot more than he lets on but feigns ignorance to it all when $$ is the conversation.

He was not like this on the previous job.


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## cabinet runner (Nov 11, 2008)

You know I did a kitchen remodel about 6 months ago and brought in an electrician to add a dedicated circut for the microwave , move the fridge plug and oven feed to new locations . Homeowner asks if sparky could replace the existing outlets and switches so they would be new with the rest of the kitchen . I say sure no problem and give them the price from sparky and everything is peachy .

Well it all is going fine until he replaces the plugs and switches and 3 of the plugs don't function . He checks and double checks everything and can't find the problem . We figure out these outlets never functioned or did so intermittently . 

He ends up tracing it back to the fuse box and runs a new feed to those outlets and ties them all on the new feed . Then we find out( we knew this was going to happen ) the other 6 outlets tied on that circut obviously don't work as he killed the original feed so he has to tie those onto the new feed . Took him a good part of a day with me helping him and I had to bring the drywall guy back and pay him to fix all the holes we had to cut . Don't want to talk about the hours wasted trying to trace the problem . Homeowner swearing the outlets all worked fine in the past the whole time .

At least I hadn't had the painter in yet . I know damn well that homeowner knew there were problems and played dumb . 

I ate the cost and sparky cut me a break as we both agreed in the future he would test every damn plug and switch before touching them . Total actual $ cost to me was $600.00 . As a previous poster said , you touch it you own it . But hey they gave me a $200.00 tip at the end since they were so happy with the results but I learned a valuable lesson . 
What was I going to do ....stand there and call them a liars with an outstanding balance of $3800.00 ? No way . I only lost profit on the job but it sucked and when you figure my time lost as well the loss number was more like $1,400.00 .

In your case this damage has to be fixed . It is holding up the whole job . I would go ahead and tear out the rest of what needs to be torn out and fix the sill and studs . The sooner you get it done the sooner you can move fowards , reach the finish line and get your money . I would submit a detailed bill for the extra work and who knows maybe they will pay for it . 

I'm sure you learned a good lesson . Have a clause in your contract and talk to the homeowner about possible issues up front . That way they don't totally freak out if there is a problem. I do that and still blew it because we didn't test the existing outlets . That was my fault and was actually pretty stupid and sparky shouldered some of the blame as it is his specialty but sh*t happens . 

What else are you going to do ...? Walk away and let them have the work already done for free ? You may end up in court and they may win the case , not to mention your rep will take a big hit . They will bash you into the ground if you walk and I really can't blame them . Look at this from their point of view 
I know things are tight right now but I would bite the bullet and move foward . Not to make it sound trivial , but to me it doesn't sound like a ton of work or material to repair this issue . 
.I think in the end this could turn out to be a big plus for you . Everyone has problems or makes mistakes but it's how you handle them that is important . Good luck


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

cabinet runner said:


> ...... I had to bring the drywall guy back and pay him to fix all the holes we had to cut ........



I gotta ask.... why were you bustin' hole in the rock?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I gotta ask.... why were you bustin' hole in the rock?


Because its cheaper to hire a drywaller AND a painter than to pay an electrician to run sticks between levels. :laughing:

Really I have no idea either.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

480sparky said:


> This is why many start out with a half page contract, and within a few years start having 12-page contracts.


Mine is 6 pages and i have customers complain it is too much to read and they feel it is excessive. My opinion is i will be adding more pages in the future as more customer issues arise.

To the OP, the issue i have with customers/HO is when i give an estimate/contract that there is a clause for unforeseen circumstances and that the estimate is just that, an estimated guess of what it will cost. It is about impossible to estimate for unforeseen problems so any issues that arise will cost extra, they seem to think an estimate is an amount written in stone.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Just start screaming, bee's, bee's everywhere and run out like a madman and never come back?


load your tools first, then quit via text message. That's what happened to me once:blink:


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## cabinet runner (Nov 11, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I gotta ask.... why were you bustin' hole in the rock?


 
Well in my maybe not so smart opinion once we cut 1 hole there was no reason not to cut as many as we needed to make it easier pull the new wires . The drywall guy I use has a minimum fee for patchwork . Really doesn't make much difference whether or not it's 1 or 10 up to a point . 
Same reason I'll cut a 24 x 24 hole instead of a 6 x 6 one if it makes it easier to do what needs to be done . Some act like making the hole smaller makes it less work .I don't know why . I do lay them out and cut them nice and square and put rock back for the drywall guy.

Seriously though this house had fire blocking at 4 ft and double plates on every wall , some of them had blocking for the cabinets and one wall had insulation. It was just quicker to cut the holes instead of fishtaping and sticking to get the wires were they needed to go . We were also extremely frustrated by the time we agreed to just run a new feed instead of chasing a flaw that was who knows where it was . Proabably was a nail in a wire or a knick from previous work they had done (probably themselves ). Never did find it .


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

No offense, but a real sparky should be able to point to a spot on the wall and say, "The problem is right here". No need to punch 20 holes to work around the problem.


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## cabinet runner (Nov 11, 2008)

woodchuck2 said:


> To the OP, the issue i have with customers/HO is when i give an estimate/contract that there is a clause for unforeseen circumstances and that the estimate is just that, an estimated guess of what it will cost. It is about impossible to estimate for unforeseen problems so any issues that arise will cost extra, they seem to think an estimate is an amount written in stone.


 Smart wording .i know when I was doing exterior door replacements I would also have a talk with the homeowner about the inevitable floor damage that was under the door . Not only did it make me look smart when it was there , it prepared the customer for the added cost . Also made those who did not have the damage relieved . 

There was a run of doors installed in my area from about 1990 to 2000 that all had failure on the sealing of the sill to the jamb . Most of the local builders used the same doors from our main local supplier . 

Almost all those replacement jobs had at least subfloor damage and some had rim joist damage was well . not a huge deal but $30 to $60 in materials and another hour or so to fix it . I think that is a thing of the past as around here now they all install the membrane tape before the doors now so that should save the subfloor if sill and jamb have a seal failure .They do the windows to . 

I hope the OP see the benefit of rectifing this problem . i really don't see any other option . At least not a positive one .


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Sounds like a small repair. Its up to you, but even on cost plus contracts I give accurate quotes for each stage, + atleast 10% on framing, foundation or roof tie in, ect... the problem parts on a remodel. A few hours and some studs, no beam/lvl/gluelam would certainly not be an issue. 

Not bragging or talking chit, just a little bit of advice, for what it is worth from one remodeler to another: there WILL be damage (rot, inadequate existing construction, termites, ect...) on a remodel. Almost always. Just have a little bit of contingency in your budget, whether time and materials, cost plus, fixed, whatever.

Sometimes it will be even more and sometimes you won't need the contingency, but it makes you look smart and well qualified when your quote is accurate and they know there were unforeseen issues you took care of.


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## cabinet runner (Nov 11, 2008)

480sparky said:


> No offense, but a real sparky should be able to point to a spot on the wall and say, "The problem is right here". No need to punch 20 holes to work around the problem.


 No offense to me . I stay away from electrical unless it is to assist an electrician with my carpentry skills . I know it is out of my realm of knowledge and to dangerous to practice on someone elses home .
Honestly I don't like electrical work even helping one out for a few hours . A man has to know his limitations.

The guy I use has 20+ years expeirence but that might not mean much . I was kinda pissed at him as I felt he shoulda tested all the outlets in hindsight . I was paying him to do the job , I shouldn't have to think of such things . 

Perhaps I need to try someone else . I don't know enough to really judge . The guy seems productive and I haven't had any call backs so I figured I'm doing good . His prices seem decent to the best of my knowledge which admittedly isn't much on electrical. I don't break down the price to the HO unless it is for an add on so I can't say if they think he is high on his pricing . 

I did offer to cut the holes as he said it would make it quicker . As I said it was a very frustrating day . I didn't mean to hijack this thread but I appreciate the input . How will one gain more knowledge without getting anothers opinion ?


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## gbruzze1 (Dec 17, 2008)

Wait a minute....

Maybe I'm using too much common sense here and thats the problem.

But what on Earth makes repairing termite damage his problem?!?

Because he didn't specifically say "I'm not responsible for termite damage" in his contract?

He said he had a general clause stating unforeseen conditions.

Jim Chestnut did a good article on this type of thing. He talked about putting in your contracts specifically what you are going to do. That way, you can't be expected to do anything else. Just because the homeowner doesn't want to pay for the repairs makes it the OPs responsibility???

Yea, maybe he runs the risk of getting a bad rep from this guy. But, if the OP is a decent contractor, he should have a ton of satisfied customers saying positive things about him. Now this homeowner just looks like a crazy.

And if he does do the work for free, doesn't he run the risk of getting a rep of "After he starts, tell him you don't wanna pay and he will finish the work for free!". That seems alot worse then the homeowner telling his friends, who are also likely basket cases, "Yea Joe Blow Contracting is TERRIBLE! Why? They found termite damage and REFUSED to fix it for free!"

A man is worth his labor. Give him a proposal for repairing the work, or have him sign off on a waiver that he is leaving termite damage in his home.

Oh by the way, did you check to see if his toilet is leaking?? You better fix that too, you don't want to get a bad rep.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

gbruzze1 said:


> Wait a minute....
> 
> Maybe I'm using too much common sense here and thats the problem.
> 
> ...



Laying out what you will do in a contract is called a Scope of Work :laughing: Every GC with a legit business has a clear scope attached to his contract.

Most legit GCs have a pretty detailed contract with clauses covering their ass every step of the way. He has as good as admitted his contract didn't do that well. I'm saying chalk this one up to SHK and move on. Half a days work is not worth your rep.

I'm also saying that I add a small contingency for unfirssen in my quote, that way I don't have to make a big deal out of some Mickey mouse BS. Just inform the HO , or not , and explain you ran into some damage or inadequacy but your estimate planned for this, won't derail the budget, atleast by much. That's how you get a rep for being a pro. Planning for chit you should know is going to happen. 


Sometimes, no amount of planning will help you, then pull out the clause, explain the situation, write a CO and keep moving.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Remind the customer if he doesn't want to fix the termite damage, he is required to disclose that the house has termite damage when he goes to sell it...may help change his mind.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

gbruzze1 said:


> Wait a minute....
> 
> Maybe I'm using too much common sense here and thats the problem.
> 
> ...


 To be clear, if your contract clearly stated your SOW and had an unforeseen clause that will hold up, then tell the guy to pound sand and cough up the dough. If it didn't, fix it and work on your contract. No biggie.

The above poster gave good advice though as far as not being a wimp when dealing with clients, you will get a rep for being a pushover then.


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## gbruzze1 (Dec 17, 2008)

Yup I understand Scope of Work. But the point Chestnut was trying to make was that your contract should state exactly what you are doing. But when you start to say what you are NOT doing, you open yourself up to everything that you didn't include in your list of NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR'S. 

The OP stated in his contract he is not responsible for unforeseen conditions. What more does he have to do?? Yea, it sounds like a quick fix no big deal, but why should the OP have to pay for it? Just bc he has a customer that wants to see how much he can get out of him?? Where does it stop??

Maybe the OP didn't make it clear enough to the HO that unforeseen things happen in remodeling and to plan for it. Does that make extra's his responsibility?? 

Maybe I'm wrong and just inexeperienced dealting with customers and eating crow, but I would have a tough time doing this work for free just bc the HO didnt wanna pay for it. 

It's just the principal.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I agree, my friend. Guy shouldn't have to pay for it. Client sounds like a douche though, best to spend a few hours to get the hell out of there, imo. That's just my take. If he had a good contract, with proper clauses, ect... sounds like he doesn't yet, then by all means, whip that bad boy out and underline it for the HO. Tell him your a business and not a charity, if he's a jerk. If it doesnt have what it needs, swallow your pride, fix it, and move on. Write a better contract chalk it up to growing pains.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

jamestrd said:


> if ti ends up in court, i can tell you thst not finishing a job is rarely a good thing...however, if there was a payment schedule that has not been met, or if the Homeowners are asking you to violate code and or do the wrong thing, you may have a leg to stand on for not proceeding with the work.
> 
> 
> every state is different although I'm sure many similarities to these types of situations..you are best speaking to an attorney..or visiting a legal forum ..their advice would be best..
> ...


:thumbsup:


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

It's been over a month, you still haven't resolved it?


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

kambrooks said:


> Is a certified letter to the homeowner good enough here...
> 
> They've expressed in an email that they don't intend to pay. Can I draft a letter stating we lost faith in their willingness or ability to pay and therefore are not going to continue to work until that faith is restored?
> 
> Or do we have to finish


Are you from Massachusetts? 
The Hic Homeowner guarantee fund may end up having to pay the homeowner if this goes in his favor ,they have arbitrators for this type of disagreement 
Not sure how this could affect your status (H I C ) if they file a complaint with the state .
I am not sure if this is even applicable but i thought i saw somewhere that you were from Massachusetts ( if not sorry i must be thinking of someone else ) 
I'ts a tough situation once you get into this type of disagreement with a H/O because you both lose trust in each other making it hard to proceed after 
good luck either way


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## kambrooks (Apr 24, 2012)

donerightwyo said:


> It's been over a month, you still haven't resolved it?


No, something new. I took the advice before did the work shut my mouth. 

These customers are just... I should of left when I could of.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Just start screaming, bee's, bee's everywhere and run out like a madman and never come back?


Thats was what I was thinking


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

kambrooks said:


> Okay, maybe not get out of it because I want the work but here's the sitch...
> 
> Garage conversion, into a family room. Everything was going good, framed the floor, beefed up the walls... Ready to break thru to the home. Must've been a door in the area we chose to go thru at and it definitely wasn't properly framed and there's termite damage in the wall and sill to boot. I stopped work obviously and told the HO who, despite my most diligent attempts, does not understand why I cannot proceed, *on budget*
> 
> ...


You should have known this was possible in the first place. . Suck it up.Let me guess, you were the cheapest? I think you had a contract, you are screwed.


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

kambrooks said:


> No, something new. I took the advice before did the work shut my mouth.
> 
> These customers are just... I should of left when I could of.


So what is the new situation? 

Personally-If there is money on the table owed to me, or an email stating I will not be paid, you can be darn sure I will not spend any time there working until whatever the situation is has been resolved. Make sure you get paid for your time and material cost.

Kind of hard to comment any more than that though without further details...


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

kambrooks said:


> Yes indeed, I've taken notes, *a slew of pictures* and left messages with code enforcement.
> 
> I'd love to just replace a few studs and a span of the sill, but can I? I don't want to proceed without the inspector seeing it. I only have a small part of this wall open, there could be more damage. Am I allowed to just proceed if I fix what's in my way?
> 
> I'm looking at removing the floor joists, purchasing and installing a new garage door, fixing the hole I put in the wall and take that few grand less the deposit, as a loss and moving on.


You know we love (good) pics. :whistling

Didn't catch them at the bottom of page 1.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

thecabinetguy said:


> I would agree on being assertive and polite and not trying to cover it up, which could make a bigger mess and a potential lawsuit. As for the Luck of working with someone you don't need a contract, yes, that's awesome, but when you get down to it, always cover yourself! They may be legit one project, but you could have an issue with another. And if later you try and say "here's my contract" and they say "We didn't have to sign one before" things get messy. ALWAYS be consistent and whether or not the details are in this contract, add it to the next in a bit more detail. Like one of you guys said before 1/2 a page usually turns to about 12 with experience.


Great advice for the rest of us but Kato is not actually bound by the same laws of physics. :laughing:


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

kambrooks said:


> No, something new. I took the advice before did the work shut my mouth.
> 
> These customers are just... I should of left when I could of.


Curious what this means? Sounds like an email from India for a bank deposit.


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## kambrooks (Apr 24, 2012)

Shellbuilder said:


> Curious what this means? Sounds like an email from India for a bank deposit.


A different issue from before

Last time there was a problem, I sucked it up, ate the $ and moved on, as advised

The customers are butts, I should of chose not to do more business with them

I s t h a t o k f o r y o u


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## LEVELBEST (Dec 28, 2006)

cabinet runner said:


> Same reason I'll cut a 24 x 24 hole instead of a 6 x 6 one if it makes it easier to do what needs to be done . Some act like making the hole smaller makes it less work .I don't know why . I do lay them out and cut them nice and square and put rock back for the drywall guy.


This is the mentality that I can't quiet grasp either, people that wouldn't understand why you would cut a 24x24 hole in the wall to make it easier. As you said, it's no harder(and often times it's even easier) to patch a hole that size as it is a 6x6 hole. However, it IS easier to patch plumbing, fix electrical, etc etc in a larger hole. Who wouldn't see the reasoning behind that?


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## LEVELBEST (Dec 28, 2006)

kambrooks said:


> A different issue from before
> 
> Last time there was a problem, I sucked it up, ate the $ and moved on, as advised
> 
> ...


There comes a point, Kam, when you HAVE to take back control of the situation. Often times, you can do as you did the first issue(which I agree with fixing it and playing nice), and it opens up the customer to think they are in control and can take advantage of you. You need to remind them that you went along with working thru the mess earlier, but that it's ultimately still you that is in control of the job.

I've had customers act this way towards me, when I had gone far above and beyond what was necessary on my part, and when it came time to pay up the final invoice they even still tried to complain or bring up any little gripe that they had along the way during the project.......I just took my check and moved on. Several months later, not only had I received calls from "friends" of theirs wanting work done(which I turned down), but the original couple called again wanting more work done. I was polite about it, but I told them I wasn't interested.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

LEVELBEST said:


> There comes a point, Kam, when you HAVE to take back control of the situation. Often times, you can do as you did the first issue(which I agree with fixing it and playing nice), and it opens up the customer to think they are in control and can take advantage of you. You need to remind them that you went along with working thru the mess earlier, but that it's ultimately still you that is in control of the job.
> 
> I've had customers act this way towards me, when I had gone far above and beyond what was necessary on my part, and when it came time to pay up the final invoice they even still tried to complain or bring up any little gripe that they had along the way during the project.......I just took my check and moved on. Several months later, not only had I received calls from "friends" of theirs wanting work done(which I turned down), but the original couple called again wanting more work done. I was polite about it, but I told them I wasn't interested.


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK8hrxr7Sg8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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