# How many billable hours in a year?



## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

How many hours do you bill for in a year?

How do you keep track of those hours?

Do you include time driving? doing "free" estimates, and time working up bids?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

summithomeinc said:


> How many hours do you bill for in a year?
> 
> *As many as possible....:whistling*
> 
> ...


*If they are actually billable to someone....:thumbsup:*


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

summithomeinc said:


> How many hours do you bill for in a year?
> 
> How do you keep track of those hours?
> 
> Do you include time driving? doing "free" estimates, and time working up bids?


How much does it cost?


Your question makes about as much sense. Billable hours, per man, can yary greatly depending on the type of job, # of men on the project, and job description.

For Service truck, 1 man, I figure 750 BH per year. Back when I ran larger crews, on a jobsite for months at a time, billed out between 1600 and 1900hr per man. 

Only keeping track of your records can you decide what works for you.


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## Mr Rewire (Aug 30, 2012)

A service van should bill at 1000 hours per year this id based on 4 billable hours a day at 50 weeks asuming two weeks for vacation and holidays.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

TxElectrician said:


> How much does it cost?
> 
> 
> Your question makes about as much sense. Billable hours, per man, can yary greatly depending on the type of job, # of men on the project, and job description.
> ...


I can see your point. I should have said for a smaller 1 man show operation, how many hours can you bill for vs. how many hours do you bill for? 40 hours 52 weeks a year =2080 hrs. Pretty sure most small guys work more hours than that. How do you get paid for those hours.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Mr Rewire said:


> A service van should bill at 1000 hours per year this id based on 4 billable hours a day at 50 weeks asuming two weeks for vacation and holidays.


That is what I was getting at. 
So the hourly rate needs to reflect only 1/2 day of billable hours.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Billiable? Ill look tomorrow. We all turn in time sheets every day, describing what we were doing and where and for how long. Even me and my dad.

Billiable is a questionable term, many of my projects are fixed cost, I bid by tge foot or what it is worth to me to do it. But we do keep track of PAYABLE hours.

The awnser for me for hours worked this year and last is, A LOT. :thumbup::laughing:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

mr rewire said:


> a service van should bill at 1000 hours per year this id based on 4 billable hours a day at 50 weeks asuming two weeks for vacation and holidays.


4??


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## Mr Rewire (Aug 30, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> I can see your point. I should have said for a smaller 1 man show operation, how many hours can you bill for vs. how many hours do you bill for? 40 hours 52 weeks a year =2080 hrs. Pretty sure most small guys work more hours than that. How do you get paid for those hours.


No holidays or vacation? We cover our unbillable hours through our billable hours. We dont charge by the hour but use a flat rate system to price our work.


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## Mr Rewire (Aug 30, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> That is what I was getting at.
> So the hourly rate needs to reflect only 1/2 day of billable hours.


our hourly rate works out to around $225.00


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

8740

8764 if it's a leap year.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Billiable? Ill look tomorrow. We all turn in time sheets every day, describing what we were doing and where and for how long. Even me and my dad.
> 
> Billiable is a questionable term, many of my projects are fixed cost, I bid by tge foot or what it is worth to me to do it. But we do keep track of PAYABLE hours.
> 
> The awnser for me for hours worked this year and last is, A LOT. :thumbup::laughing:


Payable/Billable... I had a long talk with my accountant today. The point is I bill enough per hour, just apparently don't work enough hours. So I need to up my advertising, bring in new customers, get more business. I'm curious how many hours others like me bill per year. Not hours worked because I suspect many don't includetime driving, bidding, researching projects and materials etc....


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## Mr Rewire (Aug 30, 2012)

Jaws said:


> 4??


maybe five but four is a closer number. A service van can hit maybe three 1 1/2 hour jobs add travel time between jobs along with travel time to parts house and time getting those parts the other hours are quickly acounted for. This is not for bid jobs but for a service van.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Mr Rewire, just curious if you hail from Missouri?


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

I used to discuss this topic quite a bit on another forum.
I haven't tracked my actual hours for about a year and a half--but prior to that I tracked my hours every year for many years( over 10 years)

year after year my hours came out to about 1000 hours per year which was about 700 hours production and 300 hours overhead

seasonal business- I do very little work from the end of november untill late march /early april-and november is very hit or miss.

like the O.P. in this thread---------- originally I figured I was charging enough-but needed to work more hours---and I figured my hours would grow as I became established-but that didn't happen

what I did instead-was I raised my prices- this priced me out of some markets and some types of work----- but it priced me into OTHER types of work

over all my hours stayed about the same 700+ 300=1000

the beauty of this is that when you know you are only going to have 700"billable hours"- you make those hours productive and you keep your eyes on the finances--- you price yourself out of spackling walls and cleaning out gutters--and INTO more lucrative projects

ironically- I am now "semi-retired"- but my hours this year will probably be closer to 1200.- I am training a young man to take over for me,so my personal work is less efficient---AND we are expanding into a new venture-but the priciples remain the same.

once you come to terms that your "billable hours" are not going to change much--------- you will figure out that you likely are NOT charging what you need to charge.

Best wishes,
stephen


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

This is exactly the stuff you need to figure out Jeremy, so good questions.

Let's say for argument's sake you are able to work 1,000 billable hours per year @ $50 hr (which a lot of one-man ops. and customers think is just crazy to bill/pay ), so you've grossed just $50,000 for the year, which also has to cover your 300 hrs. of overhead for "free" estimates/material aquisition/and the million other things you do "off the clock".

Out of that $50,000 comes your overhead, say $7,000 for shiites-and-giggles, so now you're left with $43,000 gross for the year...then Uncle Sam gets his share...so you've net/netted maybe $35-37k for the year of dealing with all that comes with running a business.

And that's if you're _consistently_ charging $50.00 per man hour, week in and week out. $43k taxable income, $35-37k net...for the year. :blink:

$75 per billable hour: $68k taxable income, $50-55k net? 

How about using some #'s that I think a lot of us would agree goes on all the time, just from posts here:

$35 per billable hour: $28k personal taxable income, $23-24k net? May as well work at Mickey D's or Walmart and actually enjoy your time off, without all the hassles of running a business. 

I won't go on about the guys charging $20-25 an hour for handyman work, but I'm sure we've all seen/heard about plenty of those scenarios.

And then guys wonder how they're always broke when they're so busy. :blink:


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> A service van should bill at 1000 hours per year this id based on 4 billable hours a day at 50 weeks asuming two weeks for vacation and holidays.


We do service exclusively and I would say 1000 hours maximum, not average.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

J F said:


> This is exactly the stuff you need to figure out Jeremy, so good questions.
> 
> Let's say for argument's sake you are able to work 1,000 billable hours per year @ $50 hr (which a lot of one-man ops. and customers think is just crazy to bill/pay ), so you've grossed just $50,000 for the year, which also has to cover your 300 hrs. of overhead for "free" estimates/material aquisition/and the million other things you do "off the clock".
> 
> ...


This post has got me thinking. I don't think that all hourly work is a very good way to make more than a decent living. At least as a carpenter. I charge a good fair rate, but if I worked 1,000 billed hours, it wouldn't even double what I made on unemployment for doing nothing. Add in all the expenses and insurances and self employment taxes and I probably would make less in the end and work my rear off.

About a quarter of my work is hourly. I mainly do flat rate jobs with P+O built in. Money made on materials and labor is free money that you don't have to work for. 

On some repairs, I make double and triple my hourly rate and I am still cheaper than the out of town guys. This is mainly because they are fast and easy jobs. If it doesn't go smooth, I will usually hit my hourly rate or drop a bit, but the O+P helps cushion the blow.

I charge a high enough hourly rate that I don't have to charge for morning or evening store runs, or for when we are setting the jobs up for the next day, etc. These unbillable hours are hours worked that you don't get paid for. I suppose the billables have to be high enough to cover the unbillables. 

My rate works for me, but everyone's expenses are different. If I was down in the 25 buck an hour level, I would have to charge for everything and that just gets tedious.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

This is a great thread:thumbsup:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

When I say hourly rate what I mean is that is the number I use to figure out what to charge. It doesn't mean that I only charge hourly.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

J F said:


> How's he supposed to grow up if you keep babying him like that?


Oh hush....Go eat a biscuit or somethin....:laughing:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

RemodelGA said:


> Here's the residential basic license application: http://sos.georgia.gov/acrobat/PLB/...nation for Individual or Qualifying Agent.pdf


I think I'll call them back today. It says I do need 2 years under a GC. Then when it asks for experience it says I can be the employer if I am self employed...I'm confused. 
I'll call and find out what it means. I do think it may be worth it to get a job with a GC if that's what it takes. 2 years isn't that long. I'm still young, No matter what my kids say..:laughing:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

summithomeinc said:


> Oh hush....Go eat a biscuit or somethin....:laughing:


Quit it. I'm on a semi-diet.























I can only eat a semi's worth of food a week.


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

When I filed for mine, I only had 1 year experience working for a GC. Prior to that I was hands on. After that, I was self employed. I think you'll be fine with what you've got. 

Especially if you do have projects under your belt where you've hired subs.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

And if that doesn't work, you can probably find some unscrupulous GC who will vouch for you. :whistling


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

What about the exam? Are there books or study materials I need to get?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Yes.


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

Yes. $500-$600 of books. I found a place online that had all of the books and they also had tabs you can put on pages of the book that correspond to the questions on the exam as some of the exam is open book.

I also got a study course and went through that a bunch of times. I took and passed the practice exam a few times before I actually scheduled the real test.

I was the first person done and I passed :thumbsup:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

You may also want to check with your insurer to see what changes you'll be looking at when in comes to your liability and W/C coverage/costs.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

I just read the entire application. I think getting a job with a GC wouldn't hurt. It'll take me 2 years to get all the documents they want anyway.:laughing:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Can't find your green card?


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

J F said:


> Can't find your green card?


Not only is it a dancing banana, but it's a dancing mexican banana. Well done JF :laughing:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

How come you two aren't out working today?:whistling


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

Who says we have to be "out" to be working. :whistling

I just finished up some drawings for a kitchen I just got under contract.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

RemodelGA said:


> Who says we have to be "out" to be working. :whistling
> 
> I just finished up some drawings for a kitchen I just got under contract.


Good point. I don't have anything to do till after lunch. Think I'll go ride my bike.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

What is this "working" you speak of?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

And I've been busy drawing these..

































































In 2006. :laughing:


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## JSM_CC (Jul 25, 2012)

RemodelGA said:


> Yes. $500-$600 of books. I found a place online that had all of the books and they also had tabs you can put on pages of the book that correspond to the questions on the exam as some of the exam is open book.
> 
> I also got a study course and went through that a bunch of times. I took and passed the practice exam a few times before I actually scheduled the real test.
> 
> I was the first person done and I passed :thumbsup:


Lucky open book test....dont move to California. Much stricter!


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## JSM_CC (Jul 25, 2012)

RemodelGA said:


> Who says we have to be "out" to be working. :whistling
> 
> I just finished up some drawings for a kitchen I just got under contract.


Nice renderings! What program are you using?


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

J F said:


> And I believe _way more_ think it will be_ too easy _to create a successful business.


It is very easy. Every day I lay in bed before getting up and just think of all the money I will make today.

Then as I load the truck and realize it is going to be hot and muggy out, and it will be 14 hours before I get home, it don't seem so easy.


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

JSM_CC said:


> Nice renderings! What program are you using?


Thanks. Program is chief architect :thumbsup:


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

VinylHanger said:


> It is very easy. Every day I lay in bed before getting up and just think of all the money I will make today.
> 
> Then as I load the truck and realize it is going to be hot and muggy out, and it will be 14 hours before I get home, it don't seem so easy.


At the end of the day I hate my job. First thing in the morning I cant wait to go out and build something.:clap:


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I have days like that. But overall I am pretty content to do what I do. Days I cash nice sized checks are better than the long drudgery between those checks of course.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

VinylHanger said:


> I have days like that. But overall I am pretty content to do what I do. Days I cash nice sized checks are better than the long drudgery between those checks of course.


AGREED!!! Most of my jobs are net 30 and under 300.00. Working on transitioning to home owners where I can get paid on completion.


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