# Removing glued-down lauan??



## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm tearing out Lino and 1/4" underlayment, then laying cement board and slate tiles. Pretty straightforward. 

However-- The lauan was not just stapled but also glued down. Most of it came right up but there are a lot of areas where I'm having to chip the stuff up with a hammer/chisel or whatever other tools I can find to remove it. Hammer and chisel is relatively effective until I hit the staples. Removing staples can't happen till the top layer or so is chiseled away. And some of it has practically fused with the 3/4" subfloor. Needless to say its a lot of freaking work! My hands are beat up, muscles sore, etc and I still have approx 50 SF left to remove. Resuming work on Monday. 

Any suggestions on how to make this easier?? Not as young as I used to be! I'm thinking maybe there's a bit for my multi-tool that might do the trick? Or something? Thanks


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## 98crewcab (Oct 7, 2013)

any attempt with a blade type floor scraper? Id imagine a heavy one would give enough momentum to push through it and tear through the staples


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

Yes, tried that. I have the big long handled scraper. It gets thru the areas where the lauan comes up easily but in the places where the glue is really doing its job, it's just not working. Thanks though!


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Scraper blade in a sawzall or rotary hammer should work. You'll probably have to score the lauan into 12" square sections.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

electric walk behind floor scraper? rental?


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

I'll pick up the scraper blade for my sawzall, good idea. I think I thought of that earlier today but then promptly forgot. Lol

Walk-behind scraper won't work, mostly tight areas, corners, around door jambs. 

Thanks guys


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## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

How about adding some heat to the equation?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Agility said:


> How about adding some heat to the equation?


I't possible, but heating fron the topside takes a long time to soften the glue, and a heat gun only does a little area at a time.


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

SDS with a Sharp tile chisel. pre-cut the luan into like 8x8" squares. 
Finish up staples and glue chunks with dustless cup grinder. This makes smooth subfloor.
Before i do any of this tearout i inform customers that it is +$1.25 sf if the floor is glued down.


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

Great ideas. Really appreciate all the feedback. 

$1/SF is what I'm charging for the tear-out. Will definitely charge a bit more next time!


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

Stump grinder, along the same lines, but I don't think they make a specific tool for it, that's why I never would glue plywood together unless it was permanent and another layer of material on top that can be removed when flooring is changed out .
The concept of floor prep charges are distorted, floor prep is by far more work sometimes than laying the floor over it, also it is preventing you from installing the product you make money on thereby slowing down an install. That price seems low to me and I'm in Florida, we know low prices.
I know some jobs you got to suck it up and move on. Helps as you work to curse the idiot that put the adhesive down , and a radio!


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

Radio: Check. 

Cursing the guy who installed it: CHECK, CHECK, CHECK. If the dude is still alive (floor was installed 30 years ago) his ears are burning off his goofy little head! I've had some choice words for him along the way. 

(Hmm... If he is still around, wonder if I could track him down? Slap him with one of my swollen bleeding hands??) lol


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

And Mike: Agreed - gluing 1/4" ply is definitely a ridiculous thing to do! Glue it, then staple it every 2"?? All that for crappy perimeter-glued linoleum? Insane. Thanks for the input. It helps me psychologically!


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

I think we all feel your pain. Some ceramic tile ripups come up in 3" chips, there's no way in hell it needs to be bonded to slab that well, simply insane! I say when I'm done.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

See if your rental yard has a long handled air scraper. 

Here's the cheapo version from harbor freight. Works pretty good. It's heavy enough to use as a scraper in a lot of area's, then the stubborn areas, put some air to it & get some chisel action.

http://www.harborfreight.com/long-reach-air-scraper-69236.html


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

I'd go the flexblade chipping hammer route, the versatility of both items are incredible. Own them, their always readily available. Always electric available, I do have the air chisel, haven't used it in two years, still need 10 cfm compressor for alre-5 I have.
Depending on adhesive , you may be able to wedge and separate two layers, with flexblade, the dam bolts get in way sometimes, staples may not pose problem for steel blade, tried on tackstrip but case hardened nails damages blade tip .


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

If it's down that damn well, why tear it out anyway? Are you gonna get a trophy or something?


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

The height of the floor is the issue. 3/4" subfloor and I want 1/2" CBU minimum, plus the thickness of the slate will put us within 1/8" +/- of the adjacent hardwood flooring. (The slate varies in thickness from 1/4"" to 1/2"", approx.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

If the slate varies, does it really matter?

BTW, you can chip off the layers in the slate with a stiff putty knife to reduce its thickness


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

Customer doesn't want too much of a height difference at the transition (or none at all if possible), so yes I'll either be culling the "perfect" pieces for that transition or shaving off slate to make it happen. 
But back to the point: it is necessary to remove the lauan for height purposes as well as the overall strength of the floor.


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## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

Athomas said:


> The height of the floor is the issue. 3/4" subfloor and I want 1/2" CBU minimum, plus the thickness of the slate





Athomas said:


> Customer doesn't want too much of a height difference at the transition


Do you and the customer know that floor is not stiff enough for slate tiles? 

Jaz


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Aside from the ply being to thin, even with the 1/4", you could have just put 1/4" cbu down on top of the luaun. Thicker cbu doesn't really help you in a floor if you're removing ply to accommodate it.


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

(Just replied but it didn't seem to go thru, so if there's a duplicate post I apologize!)

I'm getting two completely opposing opinions from two different guys. So...

1) 1-1/4" subfloor thickness is the recommended minimum for most slate and/or tile installations. (Including, specifically, THIS slate manufacturer.) I'm not concerned. 

And...

2) I'll take 1/2" CBU over 1/4" ply / 1/4" CBU every time. It just makes for a sturdier floor. 1/4" CBU is just more "wiggly". For lack of a better term, lol. 

Thanks for the input, but seriously if you have another idea concerning removing the lauan (my original question) that's great, but spare me the negative comments. Thanks.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

It's up to you, but I think you will find that if you want to be spared valid professional opinions about standards then you won't get much advice at all. This is a forum for people who are serious about their work. I doubt if a single one of us hasn't been criticized by others multiple times. It's what makes us better at what we do.


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

Here's the point:

This is a pretty straight-forward question. I appreciate all the helpful responses I've received, but now there's a couple of you out there who seem to think I need "educated" on this very basic installation. I appreciate the advice, but it's really not necessary to question whether I know what I'm doing; I've been in the remodeling business for over 20 years and I'm pretty sure I know what constitutes a sturdy subfloor! 

I value all of your opinions, but again, spare me the negative comments!! I'll be tackling this POS lauan again in the morning, armed with a few more excellent tools you've all recommended, and I'll try to remember to post the results ASAP. Thanks!


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Athomas7114 said:


> Here's the point:
> 
> This is a pretty straight-forward question. I appreciate all the helpful responses I've received, but now there's a couple of you out there who seem to think I need "educated" on this very basic installation. I appreciate the advice, but it's really not necessary to question whether I know what I'm doing; I've been in the remodeling business for over 20 years and I'm pretty sure I know what constitutes a sturdy subfloor!
> 
> I value all of your opinions, but again, spare me the negative comments!! I'll be tackling this POS lauan again in the morning, armed with a few more excellent tools you've all recommended, and I'll try to remember to post the results ASAP. Thanks!


Athome... Understand your thought,........... but do know that Ethan is pretty darn legit and clearly a pro.... he wasn't insulting you or being negative... he was just comparing a professional opinion......

Just friendly info....

Best

Peter


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

Thanks peter, appreciate that. No offense taken here, just wanting to stay on-topic. God bless!


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

1/2" CBU offers no structural gain, It's the structural equivalent of 1/4" CBU.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Athomas7114 said:


> Here's the point:
> 
> This is a pretty straight-forward question. I appreciate all the helpful responses I've received, but now there's a couple of you out there who seem to think I need "educated" on this very basic installation. I appreciate the advice, but it's really not necessary to question whether I know what I'm doing; I've been in the remodeling business for over 20 years and I'm pretty sure I know what constitutes a sturdy subfloor!
> 
> I value all of your opinions, but again, spare me the negative comments!! I'll be tackling this POS lauan again in the morning, armed with a few more excellent tools you've all recommended, and I'll try to remember to post the results ASAP. Thanks!


All due respect but I don't care if you've been doing it 73 years and a week. Misinformation is misinformation - period. If cbu is properly bedded in thinset their is no "wiggly" to it to begin with. Bedded the same, the only difference between 1/4 and 1/2" is - you guessed it - 1/4". Now if you need it for elevation that's one reason, but to say it makes for a stiffer floor is just plain hogwash.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

I think 1/2" is a little sturdier, sorta like working with everything else, thin metal, wood etc.. It's integrity is improved as it thickens.
You can do everything right and still have a failure unrelated we all know, especially me, I had a slate failure at my last house.
Try putting thinset over lauan and watch it grow, I've done that as well.
I like flexible thinset and grout, been saying that for years, would've solved many failures.
I don't know the deflection or live load of op, that's his business , I just want to know how the demo is going or went, some people are so nosy!


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## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

Probably won't matter in the long run. If Jaz says the floor isn't stiff enough, I would take his word for it. He probably knows more about it than anyone else.


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

Demo went great. Managed to get thru it with the scraper bit for my sawzall. Appreciate the helpful comments, could've done without the "unhelpful" ones. I think they call that trolling?? Lord. 

Curious on two things though (not to invite more cranky responses!):

1) How is 1/2" CBU no better than 1/4"? It's just not physically possible (nor is it backed up by manufacturers to my knowledge - though I could be wrong on this) that 1/4" board is as stiff as 1/2", even when you factor in the bed of mortar. Twice the thickness, but no increase in structural integrity? Why aren't we using nothing but 1/4" board then, in every application? It sure is easier to carry, cut etc and cheaper too! 

2) If Jaz thinks the floor isn't thick enough, what does Jaz recommend? 1/2" CBU over 3/4" plywood isn't sufficient? Not being sarcastic, if he thinks it should be thicker I'd love to have this info, and where he gets that info! Teach me, I'm no know it all! Lol


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

http://www.jlconline.com/flooring/tiling-over-plywood-subfloors.aspx
this is a good short rundown.
As far as the CBU, you are incorrectly assuming that CBU is structural. It isn't. Google TCNA, and get your hands on their handbook if you take your craft seriously. It will give you what you need to know.
Basically, the CBU is not taking any appreciable flex out of the floor, it's just used to add adhesion and reduce the possibility of expansion and contraction (that's why we dont set straight to ply, it expands and contracts too much).
The plywood provides the rigidity, provided it is of the correct thickness, and fastened correctly.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

The compression strength is the same therefor it doesn't do anything, start putting rebar in it and getting thicker, then it's increasing somewhat, it'll still flex though .


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

1/2 inch CBU is for walls not floors. Geez.

_1) 1-1/4" subfloor thickness is the recommended minimum for most slate and/or tile installations. (Including, specifically, THIS slate manufacturer.) I'm not concerned.

And...

2) I'll take 1/2" CBU over 1/4" ply / 1/4" CBU every time. It just makes for a sturdier floor. 1/4" CBU is just more "wiggly". For lack of a better term, lol. _

The 1-1/4 refers to plywood. If you're doing nothing but plywood, 1-1/4 is what you want. As far as the "stiffness" of CBU, excuse me while I call bull****. As it gets thicker all it gets is heavier.

Try this on for size: If you're honest, you'll admit that if there was such a thing as 1" Permabase, you could break it with your bare hands. Now what could you do with plywood?

Folla?


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

According to TCNA the requirement is two layers of plywood then one layer of cement board under natural stone. 

Sorry, but this just isn't realistic. This will give me ONE INCH height difference between the slate and the adjacent hardwood. Unacceptable to pretty much any customer but especially this one since the guy has disabilities and needs a flush surface. 

The manufacturer of the board I'm using specifically states that 3/4" subfloor plus 1/2" cement board is sufficient for tile on floors. YES, FLOORS. CBU on floors, who'd have thunk it?

"Geez". Lol

I'll admit the way I'm doing it isn't 100% optimum in the perfect "I'm a know-it-all tile guy" world, but in the real world it will be a floor that will not fail, and will be satisfactory to the customer. The end. 

As for 1/2" vs. 1/4" -- I just disagree. I misspoke when I said "structural integrity" - I know CBU isn't structural, that's not what I meant to say. I was referring to the stiffness. You can pull out a bunch of hypotheticals all day long but there is no way in hell I'd use 1/4" board on a 3/4" subfloor and consider it as stiff as 1/2" on 3/4". 

This is a great forum for exchange of ideas, etc but it seems most of the conversations on here get hijacked by one or two rude, confrontational jerks who I'm very glad I don't have to work with in real life. That would suck!

Artisanremodel -- appreciate your constructive criticism without the crappy tone. Thank you!


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## Lanya LaPunta (Oct 31, 2010)

Athomas7114 said:


> The height of the floor is the issue. 3/4" subfloor and I want 1/2" CBU minimum, plus the thickness of the slate will put us within 1/8" +/- of the adjacent hardwood flooring. (The slate varies in thickness from 1/4"" to 1/2"", approx.


1/4 inch Hardi or Wonder?

I mean, the backer does not provide any structural integrity. For flex you need to beef up the subfloor. Backer, whether it is 1/4 or 1/2 ain't going to give you any more integrity.

So, if it's luan, whether it is the old quarter inch, or today's 6 mm ... either way ... use 1/4 inch, screwed and glued ...

Then, thirty years from now ... you can have someone cursing the heck out of you.


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## Lanya LaPunta (Oct 31, 2010)

Athomas7114 said:


> According to TCNA the requirement is two layers of plywood then one layer of cement board under natural stone.
> 
> Sorry, but this just isn't realistic. This will give me ONE INCH height difference between the slate and the adjacent hardwood. Unacceptable to pretty much any customer but especially this one since the guy has disabilities and needs a flush surface.
> 
> ...


I apologize. I responded well before I read the remainder of the thread.

You already had the luan removed ... so my imput (which isn't even worth two cents) was a tad delayed and unnecessary.

Glad you got the stuff up.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

http://www.schluter.com/media/DITRAHandbook-ENG-2013.pdf?v=201304241719

There are products that let you set tile on a single sheet of 3/4" plywood. Because you are using stone/slate, you need to add 3/8". If your client is in a wheelchair now, or will be, it is even move vital to have the correct subfloor in place, as the wheelchair wheels will wreak havoc on the floor if you don't.
It is your job as a professional to steer the client to a product that suits their needs in my opinion. If the product they chose (slate) requires an added subfloor and creates a finished floor height problem, then perhaps another product should be chosen. What's the sense of installing what they want, the wrong way, if it's destined to fail? 
If staying flush is a priority, there are 1000's of choices of ceramics and porcelains that you can install over Ditra that can get you there. 
Another option if their heart is set on the slate, is to beef up the floor from below. 
If you ever get a chance, attend a Shluter 2.5 day workshop. I learned more in three hours than in the 10 years before. Embarrasing to admit, but before the internet, alot of us learned by trial and error, and now there is so much info readily available, that there is no excuse for doing a job the right way the first time.


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## Athomas7114 (Mar 24, 2013)

LaPunta: thanks for the chuckle. Lol

Artisan: very much appreciate the advice, would love to attend a Schluter workshop and may take u up on that. 

Just to clarify: no wheelchair is in the works. He has terminal brain cancer, one of the operations left him unable to lift his feet very much when walking, at least not without some difficulty. U even slate is ok, but a tradition more than 1:4" is probably not. 

Thanks again for the info. I am 100% interested in continuing to learn my trade, regardless how long I've been at it. Good info trumps some dude yelling at me that I'm doing it wrong.


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