# Need help..Made mistake and not sure how to handle it.



## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

flashheatingand said:


> Don't know much about cabinetry, but, the op missed the stud ) provided that he misses the studs with all screws) and the cabinet full of wine fell all of a sudden? Before the cabinet would actually fell, wouldn't it hang for a spell?
> 
> I would think one would remove the bottles, and call the contractor before the final drama occurred.


i agree


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## FRAME2FINISH (Aug 31, 2010)

that must of been the other work she wanted him to do but he never got back to her, that is fix it right.

hang plywood in the kitchen you will be sure to hit something solid next time, that and what everyone else is saying,


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

SSC said:


> My Bad :laughing:
> 
> 
> where is the OP anyway?
> ...


^jebus, I'm lag bolting wine racks to the wall from now on.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Classic case of a bad client giving a hack contractor the run around. There are so many problems with this it isn't even funny. At least where I live, all work must have a written contract. Oddly enough, we're not required to have insurance, but we must disclose whether or not we do. Pulling permits is the responsibilty of the contractor, not the HO. How you can hang a cabinet and miss a stud and NOT KNOW, is just unbelievable to me. And lastly,


> I offered to call a steam cleaning outfit to attempt to remove the stain.


 is not a satisfactory solution. We don't attempt to fix our phuc-ups, we succeed.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

don't really think insurance will do anything in this situation anyway..jobs been complete for months..not like the damage occurred when he was there working.

now anything could've happened..womans cat, ADD child hanging on it, her jumping up and down drunk reaching for a new bottle...too may implications..

and i agree..cabinet wouldn't just suddenly come down by missing one screw...there was some evidence...

as for letting him fix it...I dont really think that is "Law" anywhere..no HAS to let you back in there home..it is , however, proper and most likely preferred in due process... the DCA s and judges most likely would like to see this before making any rulings..I know the DCA suggests it..Judegs however may frown upon not allowing them...but if the homeowner feels the relationship is bad, the work is incompetent or just creepd out by the guy, what LAW is going to say YOU MUST LET THIS PERSON BACK IN YOUR HOME....seems unfeesible to me


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

A.T.C. said:


> . . . is not a satisfactory solution. We don't attempt to fix our phuc-ups, we succeed.


Agreed 100%!!! I assumed he would replace the carpet after the cleaning failed- but hey you never know


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## Diamond D. (Nov 12, 2009)

A.T.C. said:


> Classic case of a bad client giving a hack contractor the run around. There are so many problems with this it isn't even funny. *At least where I live, all work must have a written contract.* Oddly enough, we're not required to have insurance, but we must disclose whether or not we do. Pulling permits is the responsibilty of the contractor, not the HO. How you can hang a cabinet and miss a stud and NOT KNOW, is just unbelievable to me. And lastly, is not a satisfactory solution. We don't attempt to fix our phuc-ups, we succeed.


This is also true for OP's area.

The two year old "Home Improvement Contractor" Act;
Requires all work to have a written contract. 
No T&M allowed.
HIC registration # to be included on all correspondence, advertising, truck, etc.
Gen. Lib. insurance is required.

But, let's get serious for a second.
The OP is doing cash jobs.
Under cutting, even the Home Depot installers.
Who knows what else.

So, I suppose none of this even pertains to him.

No love lost here.
Although, I think the HO should allow him to rectify the situation, before dragging in the insurance company. If, he even has one.

D.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I'm just a stupid wire jockey but how that hell do you mount a cabinet, miss all studs and not realize it?


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

jchrisd said:


> ...hang a cabinet that was for wine storage. Well, I did and I missed a stud...
> I am not claiming that this is not my fault


It IS your fault.


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

jamestrd said:


> as for letting him fix it...I dont really think that is "Law" anywhere..no HAS to let you back in there home..it is , however, proper and most likely preferred in due process... the DCA s and judges most likely would like to see this before making any rulings..I know the DCA suggests it..Judegs however may frown upon not allowing them...but if the homeowner feels the relationship is bad, the work is incompetent or just creepd out by the guy, what LAW is going to say YOU MUST LET THIS PERSON BACK IN YOUR HOME....seems unfeesible to me



It seems florida has it :

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hFMq2dO1WgATydXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByMDhrMzdqBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkAw--/SIG=12nlptrd4/EXP=1315445708/**http%3a//www.sptimes.com/2003/06/21/Homes/New_law_governs_home_.shtml


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

read t SSC........seems like a first of what will probably be many now...

the article is interesting and i like that it now levels the playing field when consumers alwasy hold the upper hand...its about time consumers will have to take responsibility for their behaviors..when todate..it was always th contractor who had to do eveyrthing right, down to contract wording,procedure etc......

now consumers got procedure to follow...


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## cabinet runner (Nov 11, 2008)

SSC said:


> That's what he is trying to to do she won't let him. Did you even read this thread.?Deff. Get over there and take pictures! Something sounds fishy I would want to see for myself before I just hand out of ins info.


Oh yeah I read it . The OP was talking about fixing the cabinet and getting the carpet steam cleaned or possibly replacing. If I was the HO I wouldn't want to hear anything but replacement and apologies. 

He also came across like he knew the cabinet wasn't installed correctly . Not to mention I would've already been over there . I would've dropped everything to get over there and see what happened . The OP didn't seem to puzzled by why the cabinet came down . 
If you were the HO would you want to hear about patching up a brand new cabinet that hit the floor due to improper install ? Would you want the guy who caused the problem making this repair ? If there was red wine in that rack I'm sure the carpet is toast .

I really don't get someone hanging a wine rack cabinet (the ones I install typically can hold 12 to 20 bottles and many have glass racks on the bottom) and not making sure it was properly installed . 4 screw minimum on these units with proper cabinet screws !! If not enough studs I cut out drywall behind the cabinet and put in blocking . 20 minute fix for me .

No one is perfect but this sounds like negligent workmanship and a HO who doesn't want him doing anymore work. She should allow him to make it right dollarwise whether it goes though his insurance or out of his pocket . Properly installed cabinets do not fall off the wall even if a kid was hanging on it . I've probably done 600 service calls and I never have come across that situation . I've had people try and blame things on the installer that were not his fault but nothing like this . Something is wrong here .


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

I think if the OP ever comes back we need to get pictures of what happened.

Then we can see if he used the proper size molly's :lol::lol::lol:


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

And not a peep about replacing the wine itself.

"I'm sorry the plasma big screen I hung fell, let me try and fix the floor and put it back up for you. Do you have another one, so I can do that for you?"...Bueller, Bueller,... Bueller?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

flashheatingand said:


> Don't know much about cabinetry, but, the op missed the stud ) provided that he misses the studs with all screws) and the cabinet full of wine fell all of a sudden? Before the cabinet would actually fell, wouldn't it hang for a spell?
> 
> I would think one would remove the bottles, and call the contractor before the final drama occurred.


well this reasoning is pretty goofy,you think she wanted her wine to fall and wreck her carpet?


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

everyone needs to jumpoff their high horses and reread the guys post.

first..he offers to either fix or REPLACE the cabinet..and to steam clean carpet to see if this rectifies....whats wrong with this? 

its an honorable offer..after all what else is there to do..if the carpet can be cleaned,why would any of you replace it..he is offering at his own expense...

2nd as i stated,,insurance most likely isnt going to do crap here..it is faulty workmanship related..months after and again subject to scrutiny..anything coud have caused it in their eyes now..much different than a job in progress.

this becomes subject of warranty and legal liability, not an insurance issue...i think this becomes a very grey and scary area in worse case scenarios....however,,,,we are talking 1 cheap cabinet....some wine..as if she had 100 80 year old bottles worht 500 each.....
dunno if the guy is legit or not...bottomline is he is offering to correct it..


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## rock16 (Feb 25, 2010)

> 2nd as i stated,,insurance most likely isnt going to do crap here..it is faulty workmanship related..months after and again subject to scrutiny..anything coud have caused it in their eyes now..much different than a job in progress.


It is a construction defect, he tells his insurance that it was not installed properly and they should cover it and he starts paying more for insurance.
I would fix it out of pocket because I wouldn't want to add any claims to my insurance history but maybe he is not financially able to which is why we carry insurance.


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> well this reasoning is pretty goofy,you think she wanted her wine to fall and wreck her carpet?


Goofy? maybe but we all know there are some real phsyco's out there:blink:

It's called fraud. she could be doing all this just to sue him or the insurance. not everyone out there is nice and normal. there really are criminals and murderers out there its not just T.V.

For all we know their could of been a family scuffle there and the wine cabinet was an innocent bystander. Now customer wants someone else to foot the bill. Not likely but it is possible.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

jamestrd said:


> everyone needs to jumpoff their high horses and reread the guys post.
> 
> first..he offers to either fix or REPLACE the cabinet..and to steam clean carpet to see if this rectifies....whats wrong with this?
> 
> ...



nothing wrong with that...but unfortunately not the way it's going down for him:no:


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Tom Struble said:


> well this reasoning is pretty goofy,you think she wanted her wine to fall and wreck her carpet?


Goofy thinking? Why I ought to.... 
I just think something doesn't seem right. If he is being accused of shoddy workmanship, he should be able to see the cabinet, mess, and the screw markings to verify that he did miss the studs. Also, I would think that the cabinet would wobble before actually falling, and would think that one would remove the bottles of wine or whatever. You know, be proactive. 

In the ladies defense, she may have tried to call to say something was amiss and he did not return the calls because of other reasons, and that may have bitten him in the butt. 

But, casting all prejudicial thoughts aside, If there was legal documentation ( a receipt), I do believe she does have a right to file a claim to the op's insurance account.


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

If He is licensed and insured he screwed up by not pulling the permit. The homeowner screwed up by not insisting on a permit. I think the law would side with the HO on this. At least in Mass here I think the homeowner can plead stupidity. Although it does say if you don't hire a licensed person that you are pretty much screwed. I don't really have any advice on this situation. This is the last thing I would want to find myself involved in. I guess he'll make sure he hits the studs from now on.


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## Ashcon (Apr 28, 2009)

Part of being a man and a business man is standing up and taking 

responsibility for your mistakes.

If you don't have insurance than shame on you.

Bottom line go and see the problem. If your work is the cause of the 

drama. pay for the fix or give it to your insurance company. 

Here's an example of what happens when you are a stand up 

contractor. I rented a man lift, the cable protectors got damaged on 

my watch. My framing sub was using the lift when the cables got 

pinched and pulled out. The repair bill was $ 2,200.00. I didn't back 

charge the sub. I took responsibility and paid out of my pocket to fix 

the machine.

Suck it up make things right. Move on. Education is expensive 

consider this a learning experience.

My $.02

Chad


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

More like she was having a party in her newly finished basement that she got such a "great price" on because a guy was hungry...her wine and cheese party went bad, her "BFF" got drunk and dropped a glass of wine on the carpet then tracked it thru the whole area.

she cleaned it, but couldn't get it out..( cuz she doesn't have Oxiclean.the miracle cleaner)

her boyfriend says no worries, and rips the cabinet down, breaks a bottle and says "now you can sue that young honest guy trying to make a living but hitting some bumps in the road"

he wont know any better as he didnt putt permits and you have him by the balls now"
he will be scared now...bottomline it was a cheap HD cabinet and probably a carpet form there too that is protected by warranty and anti staining and discoloration"....for at least one year..


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

yea that must be what happened...dam h.o.s


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

^^^^ yeah thats what happened. i swear :laughing:


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

the fact that the job was done a while ago and the accident happened now makes this a home owners insurance claim.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

chris klee said:


> the fact that the job was done a while ago and the accident happened now makes this a home owners insurance claim.


Maybe, maybe not. Depends if his contract clearly states a valid warranty.


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## mbobbish734 (Apr 28, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Maybe, maybe not. Depends if his contract clearly states a valid warranty.


18 month warranty here, whether I like it or not. State law.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

jchrisd said:


> but I wanted cash


I was sympathetic towards the OP until I read *this*.

This makes for an unfair playing field for those of us who really do try to follow the rules.

As far as what actually caused the incident, or if he has insurance, we can only guess. However the statement I quoted above does shed some light on which way we might guess it went down.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I don't have any sympathy for either one. A hack underground contractor meets sleazy cheapo client. Made for each other. 

Now I know why I'm so busy. :clap:


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

katoman said:


> I don't have any sympathy for either one. A hack underground contractor meets sleazy cheapo client. Made for each other.
> 
> Now I know why I'm so busy. :clap:


:laughing: I should have said "somewhat" sympathetic! That would have been more accurate.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

everyone takes cash..at some point or another...he basically said he would do it for less, but to pay in cash...i get this offer made to me at least once a week..

"cash discount" sure you we have all heard that before..and at times when its slower, or you just want FU money..you do it..

Im doing one tomorrow..

dropped 10 %, get cash and instant booking...

i dont fault the guy in that at all...seems a bit "holier than thou" to suggest otherwise


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Hernandez, you're not making sense. The handyman admitted that he did a job without a contract, without permits, and knows that he failed to install a cabinet properly. Did he know the day he installed it that it was wrong? Probably. "Ah hell, it's late and I'm ready fer a cold one, that'll prolly hold". Whatever the HO's issues are, and she may in fact be a witch, the OP is supposed to be the professional here, and he did a hack job.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

This is one of the few times that the customer would have been better off with the Home Depot install.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Suck it up and fix it. Move on and learn from this f up. # 1 let's TRY really hard to hit studs when installing cabinets. Its a pretty big deal. USE CONTRACTS AND PROFFESIONAL INVOICES. Cash payments are up to you, I can certainly see the many advantages, unfortunately our bookkeeper (my mom) wont let us do it.

If you want to play with the big boys act like one.JAW


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

it makes perfect sense...what i see is a guy who made some mistakes, admitted to them and is trying to fix them..the rest is subjective to opinions and conjecture...as that's all everyone is giving..

maybe the guy is a hack...maybe just a young guy starting out and making some mistakes. makes no difference to me....




....


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

jamestrd said:


> it makes perfect sense...what i see is a guy who made some mistakes, admitted to them and is trying to fix them..the rest is subjective to opinions and conjecture...as that's all everyone is giving..
> 
> maybe the guy is a hack...maybe just a young guy starting out and making some mistakes. makes no difference to me....
> 
> ...


I agree but he asked for advice and this ain't exactly the f'ing ice capades. If you want a shoulder to cry on and an "its going to be ok" you need to go see your old lady. Here you get told your a dumb ass if you are one and you have to pick through a slew of insults if your a hack to get any advice. JAW


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

I read about the first half of the first page..

Here is the course of action that I'd take if I were in OPs shoes.

1. If I have insurance, call my agent and have them handle the situation.
2. Call the homeowner and let her know that my agent will be contacting her promptly.
3. Buy the home owner a dinner out for the hassle and inconvenience. (gift card)


If without insurance:
1. Set up an appointment to see what happened.
2. Tell the homeowner that I have no insurance.
3. Have the homeowner hire pros to repair all damage.
4. Pay the bills to repair all damages.
5. Buy the home owner a dinner out for the hassle and inconvenience. (gift card)
6. Send out job applications.

It's a terrible situation that the OP has gotten himself into.

On another note about installing cabinets. I always use fender washers on my screws and I always over attach. I have hung a few cabinets where the home owners loaded them up with an unreal amount of dishes. I've been thankful to my over attaching on several occasions.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

jamestrd said:


> i dont fault the guy in that at all...seems a bit "holier than thou" to suggest otherwise


Of course I accept cash also, but it all gets deposited into the operating account as if it was a check.

I'm sure many people cook their books, but that's not a risk I'm willing to take.

I'm sure that you have lost jobs to people who run their business all "under the table" which makes for an unfair playing field.

The lure is great or you wouldn't have done it...right?

But it does NOT make for a fair playing field.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

jawtrs said:


> I agree but he asked for advice and *this ain't exactly the f'ing ice capades*. If you want a shoulder to cry on and an "its going to be ok" you need to go see your old lady. Here you get told your a dumb ass if you are one and you have to pick through a slew of insults if your a hack to get any advice. JAW


:laughing::clap:


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

the carpet can be cleaned..just because its wine means othing..espeically if it had stainmaster/guard..

firs thing that happens is to try and have professionly removed..she dont get a new carpet if it can be cleaned..whee the hell is everyone getting that nonsense from?

EVEN THE INSURANCE COMPANY WONT REPLACE IT IF THEY THINK IT CAN BE SALVAGED..

same with the cabinet...nothing gets replaced if it can be fixed and made good as new..if it cant be,then it gets replaced.. why get a new cabinet if the door just need to be replaced?...

keep it realistic here..
and how old is the carpet?...Insurance co will depreciate if over a certain age and not pay out on even older..i think 10 years or so..

bottomline is what he offered is sufficient..he needs not do more


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Insurance company puts you back to where you were before the incident took place, no better, no worse.

The carpet was new in April, if it was red wine...she's getting new carpet. 

A few extra bucks for new stuff is much better then the aggravation of trying to salvage and satisfy with repairs which by the sounds of it won't satisfy this lady.

It's amazing, this lady is mad and upset, by making it right with new as she wants can save your reputation, you think the guy that referred him won't here about this? If it gets repaired she will tell him so, if it gets replaced with new she will tell him so. The realtor can make his own judgement call on whether to use and refer the OP again in the future.

You need to get the blinders off and not just look at today, you need to look down the road sometimes.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Glad more details were posted.

That being said, with as much experience (hands on?) claimed by the poster. Knows how to find studs. Knows how to fasten to studs, etc.. How is it studs were missed?

Actually, we don't know without a visit to eyeball the situation that studs were missed. Maybe she was holding onto the cabinet while getti.......uh....were there any swings hanging from the ceiling? Lots of mirrors on walls and ceiling?

Definitely agree about getting some pics of the wall and cabinet/rack.

Anyway, good luck on this.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

besides the fact that her "homemade wine" is worth nothing..

nice hobby though..but worth nada..zilch..

if it sits on shelves in liquor stores with a little price tag on it..then thats how much its worth....her passion full efforts making it to perfection...

0.00


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## cabinet runner (Nov 11, 2008)

jchrisd said:


> On the other wall, she had ordered a base and had a piece of granite cut for that as well. The upper cabinet was a typical 30inch wide x 18 high custom open faced cabinet with the "X" type formation for wine bottles. I mounted it (in April) . Do I think I mounted correctly? Yes. I know what a stud is and how to find them. Do I know the difference between a screw going into drywall or a stud? YES. I ASSUMED I missed a stud if you read my post, as I didn't see it yet. . Sometimes I screw up.Well, now that I posted a few more details about the case, what do you suggest?



I've installed quite a few wine cabinets like the one you describe .Usually comes with a seperate glass holder with it that mounts to the bottom with 6 screws with spacers that are supplied with the cabinet. These units must have at least 4 screws though the back of the cabinet IMO given the possible weight they may end up holding . Merillat calls this one a Wall Lattice cabinet and it holds 11 bottles of wine . Some wall cabinets are not warrantied to hang by themselves in any situation . Depends on the manufactuer. I have seen face frames seperate from the cabinet box before .

My only question is did you put enough screws in this cabinet ? 


I'm not knocking you or judging you but I would've already been over there to see what happened . I certainly would not give out my insurance info without seeing what happened . 

This lady may not be a good person but if the cabinet fell because you didn't properly fasten it well .... nothing else matters. If she had red wine on the rack getting the carpet cleaned may not be an option . I wouldn't be suprised if the lattice work in the cabinet wasn't broken when it fell and a corner dented in pretty good . 

If this was a production level cabinet it probably didn't fare to well in the fall . And think about 11 bottles of wine + the glass smashed all over the carpet . Sounds like a real mess. 

If I was her I would be pretty pissed . You seem like a decent guy from your posts but I don't get the questions you ask . You have to go look at what happened before you can make any judgement . None of your questions can really be answered until you look at what happened. Good luck .


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

cabinet runner said:


> If I was her I would be pretty pissed . You seem like a decent guy from your posts but I don't get the questions you ask . *You have to go look at what happened before you can make any judgement . None of your questions can really be answered until you look at what happened. * Good luck .


Exactly :thumbsup:


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

This is from a Pennsylvania law office:

Are you a homeowner who was a victim of a home improvement or repair contractor who failed to complete the job or who cut corners and performed the work in a poor, improper, or unworkmanlike manner?

You may have a claim for breach of contract and unjust enrichment and in some cases may qualify for treble damages under Pennsylvania's consumer protection laws againt the home improvement contractor.


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