# Chimney Advice Appreciated



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

stuart45 said:


> A gas fire can use a conventional flue here as long as it's been properly tested, but most fitters like to fit a new s/s flue.
> Any gas appliance here has to be done a someone who is registered with gas safe, and can be held liable to criminal charges for faulty work.
> http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/


For liners as well Stu? or just the gas line and appliance installation aspect?

Around these parts any old Tom, Dick or Harry contractor can install chimney liners. Most JHA's still require permit and inspection by HVAC or mechanical inspectors, but none seem to require gas fitter license.

Speaking of gas,...did you here about the explosion in New York today?
Seems apparent there was a leak reported and authorities arrived after the two buildings were already leveled.

Google map 1652 Park ave and you'll see the two older buildings which no longer exist...church and a piano shop with 4 floors of apartments on top. Kinda nice old city masonry work completely gone :blink:


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

An S/S liner can be fitted by a non gas safe worker, but would be tested by him anyway. An S/S liner is seen as a temporary fix, so the regs like a new liner fitted when an appliance is changed, unless it can be proved that the liner is almost new.
Normally the gas fitter will fit a new flue at the same time as the appliance is done.
Heard about the explosion in NY, looks like a serious thing with a few killed.


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## ClosetsNY (Mar 10, 2014)

Hi guys sorry for not getting back to you sooner it’s been very hectic. During the installation of the roof the mason came back on his own to fill the cracks. He also started talking about silicon at that point I told him no freaking way if he was going to do anything it would be doing all his work over again correctly. The whole conversation went kind of how I thought it would…..

He didn't like me trying to tell him all the things that were done incorrectly. He kept telling me how he has been a mason for over 38 years and he did nothing wrong the only problem was he used an accelerant and that it dried to fast and that’s what caused it to crack.

Basically after arguing with him for a good 10mins he sent his guy up to look at the chimney I guess he said it needed to be replaced. I told him that I was concerned if the crown mortar was bad why would the mortar used for the bricks be good. Unfortunately he wasn't hearing any of that and said he was going to fix the crown and he was done talking.

A few of the key bullet points of our conversation included (I am not making this up)

A) Him telling me I should be happy because the work he did was better then what I had before???

B) That the chimney was built like crap back in 1951 and that if what they built lasted that long his work should last a life time…..

C) He is going to do it right this time!

D) The reason he charges so much is because he takes safety seriously (as he’s telling me this his guy is squatting on top of my chimney with a rotary hammer **NO JOKE**) This was the main reason I went with him because being a contractor I wanted someone who would take all the safety precautions was licensed and had the proper insurances like I have with my own business.

E) You should be happy I am giving you an industrial cap….
There was a lot more he said I wish I had a tape recorder because I couldn’t believe the amount of crap coming out of his mouth and how nasty his attitude towards me was. At this point I figured I would let him attempt to repair the work he did the first time and I would just stand over them and photograph his quality work. All this was done on top of my just installed roof….


****Warning before you click the link with the photos make sure you’re not drinking anything I would hate for you to spit your drink all over your monitors.****

http://postimg.org/gallery/7qlvw02s/

It would almost be funny if it wasn't so sad….

To answer some of the questions asked the chimney does not have s/s liners it was painted and the paint has been scraped off to give a weathered look. No cricket on the back side of the chimney it’s a flat roof kind of hard to see in the first set of photos. I am planning on upgrading the boiler with a direct vent condensing boiler in the near future. All that would be vented with the chimney would be the R.H. Peterson gas fire place log set.

I am not sure what my next step will be he left the 2x4 form around the cap and still hasn’t come back to remove it yet. I am still not happy there was no thermal barrier between the flues and the crown doesn’t extend beyond the chimney. The crown also has no taper on the top and I am sure the edge will look like crap when he removes the form since he didn’t even finish the edge around the form….


Let me know what you all think and what you would recommend my next step be. I am sure of one thing I am done trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. 


I also want to thank everyone for taking the time and giving me advice. 


PS To top it all off my roofer left his ladder up because he felt bad for this guy and this guy tries taking claiming he thought it was his along with my ladder I had setup on the back side of the house.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

I really don't see safety as any priority. We call these kind of hacks life time apprentices in my neck of the woods. Maybe he needs another 38 years of practice. For future projects ask for references, take a few hours make a few calls and go look at previous work. I truly doubt you would have talked to any satisfied customers? Unless of course this gentleman builds man holes and his side line is giving our trade a bad name. As a final thought, some folks bid jobs super high never expecting to actually get the job. Their mind set is if the customer is crazy enough to accept the bid then they'll do the work.


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## ClosetsNY (Mar 10, 2014)

Not that I'm defending him or his work but....

The first time they did it they did indeed set up scaffolding / staging.

I did get a few references and not just names he gave me. One called him the ferrari of masonry and the other is a close neighbour who seems very happy with the work they had done, same style house built the same year. But then again not many people in my neighbourhood would go up to check the crown work let alone own a ladder to do so.

I even checked with the bbb and county licensing dept. to see if he had any complaints and all came back clean. As for him being the highest bid he wasn't that much higher than the other bids (3 total) I got. The joys of living on Long Island.

I guess I should have went on the roof and watched him when he first did the install but I thought I was in good hands. Fortunately and unfortunately business has been very good so I've had limited time to babysit all the work that I am having done. 

I appreciate your advice everything you recommend is spot on! Sometimes you just get unlucky. I am still not sure what I am going to do I've a few options being that he is licensed in my county.

Thanks.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

ClosetsNY said:


> He didn't like me trying to tell him all the things that were done incorrectly. He kept telling me how he has been a mason for over 38 years and he did nothing wrong the only problem was he used an accelerant and that it dried to fast and that’s what caused it to crack.
> 
> .


On this site most guys call the shoddy workmen hacks,we call them boots(as in shoemakers)


Anyway, the hacks / boots who tell me they have X amount of years of experience,I laugh,I say no you don't,you have one year of experience replicated 10,20....38 times etc.:laughing:


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

ClosetsNY said:


> I did get a few references and not just names he gave me. *One called him the ferrari of masonry *


And all you really needed was a Toyota......dependable, with years of carefree service......I'm guessing that the Ferrari reference was likely because of his speed.....

I can practically _hear_ him mumbling obscenities while you're taking pics....:laughing:

Safety?!? I'd send a pic of his guy on the top of your chimney to his WC carrier........that is just nutz.......

Well, it is better than before.......but that's like saying getting punched in the gut is better than getting punched in the nose......:whistling


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Dont sh!t your pants because some guys are standing up on a 20' tall chimney top. Its nothing. 

Seeing how the cap came apart I think he used the bagged portland and it set to fast on him, he probably put a shovel ful of calcium in it too....

There is a million different ways that could have been fixed that would not involve the stupid form he put up, but it is what it is. 

I am worried you have a new roof with out any new lead cut in. Should have happened when the roof was stripped at some point. Unless there is some old crap in there I cant see too well.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

It has come up before over the years that something isnt perfect or whatever. The only thing to say is "yes that isnt right ill fix it right away"

Say that and fix it and you will impress whoever it is, try to side step your screw up and youll just dig a deeper hole.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Well this certainly proves two wrongs don't make a right :laughing:

Hack attack times two,...hopefully third time's a charm!


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

JBM said:


> Dont sh!t your pants because some guys are standing up on a 20' tall chimney top. Its nothing.


If you've spent your whole career in residential, you've likely never seen a bad one....but I've seen some horrific injuries happen in way less than 20'......and in almost EVERY CASE......things are fine one second.....and BAM......life changing the next.....

I would not let one of my guys stand on a chimney like that....I've been in biz for over 30 years w/o a claim, and I mean to keep it that way......that means nothing stupid. It may be nothing to you.....it's not nothing to me.....


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Sure, keeping it safe is always the best route.


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## ClosetsNY (Mar 10, 2014)

JBM said:


> Dont sh!t your pants because some guys are standing up on a 20' tall chimney top. Its nothing.
> 
> Seeing how the cap came apart I think he used the bagged portland and it set to fast on him, he probably put a shovel ful of calcium in it too....
> 
> ...


It's flashed with copper and the flat roof is a copper roof unfortunately it had to be covered over to help prevent any a-holes from trying to walk away with it for scrap.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

This is pretty common for the sweep guys. Sure it isnt as safe as it could be, but neither are most things.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

but it could lead to this


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

JBM said:


> Sure, keeping it safe is always the best route.


Be thankful you don't do work on Military bases and or OSHA partnership jobs. Last job I did if you were over 6' 100% tie off required to include being on a step ladder. Tie off meaning safety harness and lanyard connected to a approved tie off point.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

heavyc said:


> Be thankful you don't do work on Military bases and or OSHA partnership jobs. Last job I did if you were over 6' 100% tie off required to include being on a step ladder. Tie off meaning safety harness and lanyard connected to a approved tie off point.


No worries, those are rated jobs here and masons make 80 an hour. However they want it.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Man I hope your insurance carrier isn't reading this thread. Your rates must be through the roof.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

JBM said:


> No worries, those are rated jobs here and masons make 80 an hour. However they want it.


Mason's or Masonry Doctor? Rate is extremely exaggerated. You would have to charge 100$ per unit to make a penny?


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## ClosetsNY (Mar 10, 2014)

Funny you should mention OSHA the day before when my framers were framing out the gables OSHA just happened to stop by the job site. Apparently he was even taking photos of them working to make a case... They got hit with some MAJOR fines hopefully since it’s his first run-in with them they can work out a deal. After that everyone had fall protection hardhats and safety glasses. He even has to take his guys to a seminar on safety.

I felt really bad for him he did a great job getting the gables and roof installed along with extending the soffit overhangs in only two days. 

He’s been doing this for 28 years and he said he’s never been stopped by them on a residential project. When the guy from OSHA left he said don't think I am not coming back.... So the whole time this guy and his helpers are squatting on my chimney I am thinking if OSHA see this he’s fuc*ed.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Injuries are a lot harder to swallow rather than your pride. Weekly by law I have to hold tool box talks/ safety meetings . No matter what the topic of the week happens to be, I drill into my guys first and foremost there is no such thing as being to safe period.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

I didn't mean to sound harsh, but I've got a friend here who fell from about 20'......his wife had to bring pictures in so that the plastic surgeon could have an idea of what he was supposed to look like...

They thought he may have blacked out, fainted, whatever, as he didn't suffer broken arms or wrists, which apparently always happens as someone tries to break a fall......

I get that a lot of guys do that 'stand on the chimney' thing.....and who doesn't enjoy watching Fred Dibnah?

It reminds me of that old story about some pro football coach, who was bringing his team out to practice on a day it was about 10º below zero, stating "We're gonna separate the men from the boys!" A lineman started jogging back to the locker room, saying "So long, _men_"


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

heavyc said:


> I drill into my guys first and foremost there is no such thing as being to safe period.





I have a friend who's company is now self insured. I can guarantee he did not reach that plateau by having a lot of injuries on his job sites.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I remember watching my pals who were framers run across ridges when they were running up the rafters, walking actoss joists and generally doing crap I would never do. Standing on a chimney seemed pretty mild to what framers do on a day to day basis. Even hopping out a window onto a wall bracket is not something I generally would ever hope to do again.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

fjn said:


> I have a friend who's company is now self insured. I can guarantee he did not reach that plateau by having a lot of injuries on his job sites.


How did I get quoted in reference to "your" friend. JDK?


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

heavyc said:


> How did I get quoted in reference to "your" friend. JDK?





Because instilling safety into the crew is the way to go to eventually reach that plateau that you can become self insured. Accidents / fatalities will put you out of business.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

fjn said:


> Because instilling safety into the crew is the way to go to eventually reach that plateau that you can become self insured. Accidents / fatalities will put you out of business.


The only thing that can't be figured in is the human factor. You can't fix stupid. Which tends to be the root cause of most recordable injuries.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

heavyc said:


> The only thing that can't be figured in is the human factor. You can't fix stupid. Which tends to be the root cause of most recordable injuries.





You are very much correct. Hopefully, the H.R. administrator will be able to ascertain a good hire from a walking liability,although some will fall through the cracks.


In the early '70s a carpenter friend worked for a very large construction co. they had absolutely a 0 tolerance policy,regarding several issues. One was any carpenter caught throwing a board on the ground with nail protruding,or not bent over,go straight to trailer and get your check,you are done.When you hired in you were told the rules.


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