# The 1,000 year house



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Just a bit of Chicago masonry history / trivia. In October of 1871 Chicago was devastated by a fire that burned for several days and consumed much of the city. As a result of that fire,Chicago implemented some of the most stringent fire and building codes of any metropolitan city. With those strict fire codes came an explosion in the need for brick production. By the late 1800's to early 1900's there were 27 plants (mainly south and west) of the city winning the blue / gray clay that produced the bricks which became known as "Chicago Commons".

The last such plant was closed by the EPA in 1981. Prior to its closing,American Brick Co. was burning around 2 million brick in each of its firings in an antiquated method called a scove kiln or clamp.

One can only imagine the almost insatiable appetite Chicago once had to require 27 such plants to meet the production needs of the city. Chicago was built up predominately of stout 1 story brick homes with only a double wythe or 8" wall. The nature of those walls, with the usage of Lime mortar created a wall that easily took on rain in storms, the lime mortar allowed that water to "leave" the wall just as easily with no moisture problems incurred.


The 1,000 yr. house with its triple wythe walls and lime based mortar would be expected to "breathe" as easily or perhaps more so. Reason being,the brick produced by the supplier Old Virginia Brick is in my assessment a much superior product to the typical Chicago Commons.


Many buildings in Chicago,especially those of more than one story opted for 12" or greater walls. Possibly the reason being,engineering as a profession did not hit its stride until the more recent past. With that said,empirical design was the rule of thumb. That resulted in the walls of the Monadnock Building built with brick walls six feet in width.


Here is a connection to that building. http://www.monadnockbuilding.com/history.htm


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> Interesting house fjn. I've built quite a few walls that thick, but never used that type of bond. Normally headers and stretchers every course or Flemish. Seen a bond known as Clip bond on a really old property.
> View attachment 109120


What you call the clip bond I know as the "hidden bond" or my favourite....the "secret bond". Generally though I see the 45* brick installed about as commonly as wall ties are now, so about every 2nd brick, every 6-9 courses. 

And I'm with FJN, I call the alternating header stretcher courses, english bond, and when there's a header course every 5-9 courses I call it American bond. On a triple wythe wall the header is on say the 6th course exterior and the 7th course interior. 

I've also see a double wythe wall on a 2 story structure that has a 2" air space between the 2 wythes and the header course only laps on the inner course by the 2" and the other 2" on the inside is just slopped with mud then plastered. Surprisingly the building has been largely neglected because it's a commercial rental but is still in reasonably good shape 130 years later


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

fjn said:


> The last such plant was closed by the EPA in 1981. Prior to its closing,American Brick Co. was burning around 2 million brick in each of its firings in an antiquated method calledChicago was built up predominately of stout 1 story brick homes with only a double wythe or 8" wall. The nature of those walls, with the usage of Lime mortar created a wall that easily took on rain in storms, the lime mortar allowed that water to "leave" the wall just as easily with no moisture problems incurred.


Much of our Victorian housing stock is made up of solid 9 inch brick wall like those. The ones near the coast were prone to damp due to wind driven rain, so the cavity wall was introduced to some in the mid 1800's.
By the mid 1930's most houses had 2 skins of brickwork with a 2-3 inch air gap.
There are still 1,000's of 9 inch solid houses being lived in, although this winter has been the wettest on record, with loads of wind driven rain in areas not normally affected.
The result is that many people have been having damp problems never seen before.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> Interesting house fjn. I've built quite a few walls that thick, but never used that type of bond. Normally headers and stretchers every course or Flemish. Seen a bond known as Clip bond on a really old property.
> View attachment 109120





Hello Stuart; Your depiction of the Clip Bond really got me thinking + may have answered a longstanding question in my mind. One of the first architectural styles used in America (imported from U.K.) was the Georgian style.

In America the move to create its own architectural style was followed up by the Federal or remotely known as Adams style. The Federal style attempted to "refine" the Georgian by implementing more "delicate " features. That was accomplished by thinner muttons on window sash,curved fanlights over entrance doors etc. Most noticeable though was the refinement in the largest aspect of the buildings,the walls. This refinement came in several ways,first,an attempt to produce brick that was way more mechanical,with a much sharper arris,similar to today's FBX brick.


Another very noticeable feature was the doing away with headers in any way,meaning Flemish or otherwise. Soooooo ,I always wondered,with no visible headers,and metal joint reinforcement not in vogue yet,what tied the wythes together? It may just have been the Clip Bond.



I would like to hear from some of our East and Mid-Atlantic masons to see what they have encountered since neither style is prevalent in my neck of the woods.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> I've also see a double wythe wall on a 2 story structure that has a 2" air space between the 2 wythes and the header course only laps on the inner course by the 2" and the other 2" on the inside is just slopped with mud then plastered. Surprisingly the building has been largely neglected because it's a commercial rental but is still in reasonably good shape 130 years later


There was a terracotta special tie brick for cavity walls in Victorian times.
The one on the far left. The face was covered by a 1/4 closer piece of face brick, the back normally was flush with the inside wall.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Dude should learn to wear some gloves... :whistling


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Who can work with gloves?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Who can work with gloves?


LOL.. easier to work with gloves than those hands... :laughing:


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

I could never lay brick with gloves on untill they came out with the thin cotton ones with latex palm. Now I even wear them in the summer.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

CJKarl said:


> I could never lay brick with gloves on untill they came out with the thin cotton ones with latex palm. Now I even wear them in the summer.





This is what I use.

http://www.bontool.com/product1.asp?P=B14-168


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

FJN, "Chicago commons" are generally the backup wyths of the much harder baked and colored/textured "face" brick Wythe. They were never meant to be used for exterior veneer work in Northern climes. During demo, the hard baked face brick were sorted out and sold for much more then basic useless softer back brick in modern walls, one story walls under a 24"-32" soffit may last 50years, chimneys typically are failing in less than 20 years from frost damage to the porous units.

Stuart/Fjn, What you are referring to as "clip" bond was actually called "half clipped RAKE bond" the half clip referring to the raked units being clipped on alternating sides to save some hammer time (one less clipped corner by not clipping a pocket into both face Wyths every course) The Rake bond was used largely because the face brick available from Clamp Kilns rarely had usable Quoin faces for headers, modern style continuous floe kilns allow the production of brick with 3 out of 6 faces with matching color and texture...On very thick walls the center wyths were sometimes laid Herringbone style, Rake bond being a subset of herringbone bonds...

No brick building was insurable that wasn't built with a minimum % of true headers, many times a large portion of apparent headers were actually 1/2 bats to speed production and use otherwise useless material, too few actual header brick could lead to catastrophic failure of whole wyths, sometimes killing bystanders or firemen during a fire.
Stuart45, love the wall tie collection


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> FJN,
> Stuart/Fjn, What you are referring to as "clip" bond was actually called "half clipped RAKE bond" the half clip referring to the raked units being clipped on alternating sides to save some hammer time (one less clipped corner by not clipping a pocket into both face Wyths every course)


It may have been called many things, I have a reprint of a book from the 1920's that calls it the secret bond. Different areas have always had different terms for building styles.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Dom-mas, While many objects and methods are known locally with local vernacular-names and terms, For nearly everything though there exists a word that is used by all informed practitioners to describe the idea or object, Nomenclature.

As modern masons, we can use hundreds of products that weren't availiable and whole fields of masonry have been rendered economically obsolete by technology and massive regulatory burdens

I referrenced my grandpa's 1924 _Audels' Masons and Builders Guide, Volume One_, for the exact info on the rake bond. literate masons coast to coast would have known what a half clipped rake bond 3 wyth wall was, Secret Bond, not so much...
Imagine a contract that called out " and Secret bond to be used..."
I'd call it the "Carpal tunnel bond" if I had to clip almost every brick I laid...

The "chicago commons" info is collected by actually observing the Demo of Late Nineteenth, early multiple wyth laid in LIME mortar commericial buildings here and in Chicago... and fixing many chimneys built out of the inappropriate for exterior masonry material. 

I'd testify to the Insurance requirements driving early building codes, many relating to need to protect firefighters as they attempt to keep fires from spreading and civil law forcing building owners to build safer structures, but can't recall a primary source.

I'm enjoying the Thaw.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

FJN, thank you for posting that. I've never heard of him before, and I'm glad to have found it.

I hope that it's O.K. to join this conversation, although I'm not a Mason, as I had a couple of questions.





stuart45 said:


> Much of our Victorian housing stock is made up of solid 9 inch brick wall like those. The ones near the coast were prone to damp due to wind driven rain, so the cavity wall was introduced to some in the mid 1800's.
> By the mid 1930's most houses had 2 skins of brickwork with a 2-3 inch air gap.
> There are still 1,000's of 9 inch solid houses being lived in, although this winter has been the wettest on record, with loads of wind driven rain in areas not normally affected.
> The result is that many people have been having damp problems never seen before.


I was wondering about this as well. I've always heard that single solid walls are prone to damp and mold, which is why the Romans, among others, always built double walls with a cavity in the middle. What is Clay Chapmans method to keep moisture down?

And what is the advantage to lime mortar, as opposed to cement mortar, in these buildings?

Are any of these questions answered in the HFA videos?

Thanks.





Delta


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Stuart/Fjn, What you are referring to as "clip" bond was actually called "half clipped RAKE bond" the half clip referring to the raked units being
> [/SIZE][/FONT]


In the UK it's known as Clip bond. It's called that in various books and dates back to Tudor times.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Dom-mas, While many objects and methods are known locally with local vernacular-names and terms, For nearly everything though there exists a word that is used by all informed practitioners to describe the idea or object, Nomenclature.
> 
> As modern masons, we can use hundreds of products that weren't availiable and whole fields of masonry have been rendered economically obsolete by technology and massive regulatory burdens
> 
> ...


you reference one book, and say it was the book of literate masons coast to coast. Which coast? There are other countries, with much older terms as Stuart has pointed out. The book I'm referencing predates Audels by a decade. It actually calls it the diagonal secret bond to differentiate it from a header secret bond and says it's exact reason for being was aesthetic. Intereting that the buildings that I've worked on that have the same bond are 40 years older than Audel's book and use facing brick that is good 4 sides.

There are other books that are equally old and called it the "hidden bond". Why you feel it is so insane for an architect to spec "hidden" or "secret" bond is beyond me. But many of your opinions which you seem to feel are fact are beyond me. You are a closed minded fool in my opinion, never wanting to learn from anyone elses experiences. You seem to believe you are the only one with any knowledge on this forum....you are totally 100% incorrect.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> FJN, "Chicago commons" are generally the backup wyths of the much harder baked and colored/textured "face" brick Wythe. They were never meant to be used for exterior veneer work in Northern climes. During demo, the hard baked face brick were sorted out and sold for much more then basic useless softer back brick in modern walls, one story walls under a 24"-32" soffit may last 50years, chimneys typically are failing in less than 20 years from frost damage to the porous units.
> 
> ]





Being born and raised and practiced the trade in Chicago for 39 yrs. it is apparent to me, your familiarity with Chicago,its masonry history and where or where not Common brick are placed in a wall leave a lot to be desired.With Chicago common brick being the outer wythe on virtually 100,000 of buildings in every shape and form,"hiding" under 24'-32" soffits and rising above roof lines (parapet)covered by clay coping; your observation that they were never meant to be used in that manner jumps off the page to me.


By that very statement,it leads me to believe you have never worked in that city and possibly never even passed through it in day light or darkness.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> FJN, thank you for posting that. I've never heard of him before, and I'm glad to have found it.
> 
> I hope that it's O.K. to join this conversation, although I'm not a Mason, as I had a couple of questions.
> 
> ...


Lime mortar has the advantage of allowing moisture in the wall to evaporate through it's open pore structure. With a strong cement mortar the moisture tends to stay in the brickwork for much longer.
Double wythe walls in clay brick stopped being built here after the 1936 Public Health Act, unless tile hung, stucco -ed, shiplap etc.
A treble wythe was still OK, but the brick/cavity/brick or block inner skin was cheaper to construct so became the norm.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Stuart45, If I was to ask you what a three wyth wall with the interior and exterior wyths of brick clipped on both interior corners to receive the center wyth bonding brick laid at a 45 degree angle to the wall faces into the pockets created by the aforementioned clips? I'd call it a rake bond, every other rake would be laid at the opposite 45 degree angle to brace the wall against loads from both directions.
Second 3 wyth wall has a 45 degree angled bricks, but to save labor only 3 clips per unit are needed (two creating a pocket in one face wyth, the third clip off the raked unit allowing it to fit against the UNCLIPPED wyth... I'd call a half clipped rake bond.....which would have four different bonds before repeating...the first course right hand 45 angle, clipped raked brick end against the interior wall, second left hand 45 angle, again the interior, the third and fourth raked bricks clipped abutting the exterior wyth....

Dom-mas, I might be a close minded fool, but I know in these examples my opinions more closely match reality. I still think you are mis labelling bonds, I was just trying to share what I know, If you are sure your right, why do care what I say? The truth will out. Some one published some thing, its gotta be true...

The manufacture of Face brick lead to the use of "hidden bonds".

There several "hidden or secret" bonds that were used, wouldn't the masters of their craft have different names for each one used?


Fjn, I suggest you check your facts, I''m sure some poorly built or cheap skates used common brick on the street side of some buildings in Chicago, but most used face brick for added style and tighter joints, Yes commons could be used indoor parts of Party walls, but only poorer grades of workmanship would lay them exposed to weather, back up brick used externally wouldn't have last 80-120years of Midwest winters. If the average building demoed had 20 inch thick walls, 80 precent would be back up commons....What I am calling Chicago commons were never intended for use exposed to the weather, tens of millions were sold for inappropriate uses.

Yes, some common brick were made to be exposed to the weather, they are much less "common" than the back up species.

As an aside, as the average age of the demoed buildings follows the passing of time, fewer buildings used lime based mortars which allows easy removal of the old mortars-Portland based mortars render used bricks uneconomically recyclable.

If you work union, You might have worked some of my family...they are even smarter than me. Haven't been to see the relatives lately, but I'm thinking history of Chicago common bricks hasn't changed much...

If I lived across the street from MIT would I be any smarter?

FJN, going forwards, I'll know that you think you know everything regarding your posts and have no desire to learn otherwise, I'll avoid popping any of your bubbles. If you can show me my errors , please do so.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Stuart45, If I was to ask you what a three wyth wall with the interior and exterior wyths of brick clipped on both interior corners to receive the center wyth bonding brick laid at a 45 degree angle to the wall faces into the pockets created by the aforementioned clips? I'd call it a rake bond, every other rake would be laid at the opposite 45 degree angle to brace the wall against loads from both directions.
> Second 3 wyth wall has a 45 degree angled bricks, but to save labor only 3 clips per unit are needed (two creating a pocket in one face wyth, the third clip off the raked unit allowing it to fit against the UNCLIPPED wyth... I'd call a half clipped rake bond.....which would have four different bonds before repeating...the first course right hand 45 angle, clipped raked brick end against the interior wall, second left hand 45 angle, again the interior, the third and fourth raked bricks clipped abutting the exterior wyth....


None of this really affects what this bond has been called in the UK for hundreds of years. It's always been called Clip bond here. Monk bond wasn't invented by the Monks, but it's still called that. 
The bond you call American bond is known as English garden wall bond here. Running bond is known as Stretcher bond. 
The names are only correct when used in their own countries.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Your opinions more closely match reality? I've see that bond called both the secret bond and the hidden bond in more than one book by more than one author. If you want to rely on your one book, I'm sure it's a great one I really do, go ahead.

There is a thread in another part of the forum about what people call gable returns. Some call them cornice returns. Are they wrong? Who says? I DO agree that there should be more consensus on certain terms, but when styles develop in different areas there CANNOT be one single name. Sure for architectural details that have been around since Palladio we might decide to use whatever he calls it, but for most everything else we need to be able to say it is such and such AKA, or variously known as... Keep believing your way is the only way, doesn't bother me at all. I will continue to learn, you will be stuck with whatever "knowledge" you had when your mind shut like a trap.

What does "more closely match reality" mean anyway? There is only one reality and that reality is that there are many names for many things

Question. Is it a Cougar, or a Puma or a Mountain Lion


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

Oh joy..... Forth generation is here.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> Double wythe walls in clay brick stopped being built here after the 1936 Public Health Act


That's interesting. Why was it a health issue?


Thanks.



Delta


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Actually, in regards to the Chicago commons, the same brick were used for inner and outer wythes, HOWEVER, they were sorted into buffs and salmons, with the buffs being used on the exterior and the salmons used on the interior surface and interior wythes. The salmons are softer and did not achieve the same temps as the buffs, but they were all fired at the same time in the same kilns (or clamps).


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

(But that doesn't preclude the use of face brick, that was also commonly done on the front of the building)


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> That's interesting. Why was it a health issue?
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> ...


Mainly because it was thought that rain water was able to penetrate some of the 9 inch solid walls causing internal dampness and mould on the walls.
The theory of a 9 inch solid wall is that generally rain will only penetrate about halfway through the wall before heat from inside will start to make it evaporate back outside. Normally this works, but in areas prone to prolonged wind driven horizontal rain it can get through to the inside.
There are still 1,000's of Victorian row houses left in the country like this one, but in the 30's nearly all were rental properties for working class people, and had been poorly maintained. They often had leaking gutters and the pointing was falling out the walls.







Most of these houses are in better condition now as they are owner occupied, but the continuous heavy driving rain of this winter has caused problems in some of these houses not seen in recent times.
Even houses with thicker solid walls in exposed areas have seen damp patches on the inside plaster.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fjn, I suggest you check your facts, I''m sure some poorly built or cheap skates used common brick on the street side of some buildings 

FJN, going forwards, I'll know that you think you know everything regarding your posts and have no desire to learn otherwise, I'll avoid popping any of your bubbles. If you can show me my errors , please do so.[/QUOTE]



Check my facts?????? I'll tell you what,fly into Chicago's Mid -Way airport, I will pick you up, if I cannot show you 1,000 buildings within the first 1 hour of your feet on the ground with common brick as the outer wythe I will buy you lunch. Better yet,I will buy you lunch regardless and pay your airfare to boot.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

fjn said:


> Fjn, I suggest you check your facts, I''m sure some poorly built or cheap skates used common brick on the street side of some buildings
> 
> FJN, going forwards, I'll know that you think you know everything regarding your posts and have no desire to learn otherwise, I'll avoid popping any of your bubbles. If you can show me my errors , please do so.




Check my facts?????? I'll tell you what,fly into Chicago's Mid -Way airport, I will pick you up, if I cannot show you 1,000 buildings within the first 1 hour of your feet on the ground with common brick as the outer wythe I will buy you lunch. Better yet,I will buy you lunch regardless and pay your airfare to boot.[/QUOTE]


Don't suppose that offer applies to me and the family does it fjn
ps. Just a single ticket for my wife.
Found this article about the overcoat/raincoat effect.
www.outhaus.ie/file-downloads/Rainpenetration.pdf


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> What does "more closely match reality" mean anyway? There is only one reality and that reality is that there are many names for many things
> 
> Question. Is it a Cougar, or a Puma or a Mountain Lion



:thumbsup:


In masonry,is it a trig or twig.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Neither, it's a tingle plate.:laughing:







Got that from 4thgen's book.
so it must be right.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

stuart45;[/QUOTE said:


> ps. Just a single ticket for my wife.
> 
> www.outhaus.ie/file-downloads/Rainpenetration.pdf




ps.Just a single ticket for my wife.:laughing:


The last part of that article was most interesting.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> Neither, it's a tingle plate.:laughing:
> View attachment 109447
> 
> Got that from 4thgen's book.
> so it must be right.






Love it, :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

"Before irregularities became coveted architectural effects, common bricks were a cheap and abundant resource--a prosaic building material for places generally obscured from street traffic: side and back walls, for example, chimney flues, and structural support behind facades. People sank their money into the more decorative "face brick," which tended to have a cookie-cutter uniformity and was shipped in from other areas. "

From here:

http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1031.html

Back in the day they sorted the brick, either at the plant or at the site (most likely). I have seen too many pictures of wrecked walls with the exterior buff and the interiors pink for it to be a coincidence. And, as noted above, more expensive face brick were often used on the front of the building.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tscarborough said:


> Actually, in regards to the Chicago commons, the same brick were used for inner and outer wythes, HOWEVER, they were sorted into buffs and salmons, with the buffs being used on the exterior and the salmons used on the interior surface and interior wythes. The salmons are softer and did not achieve the same temps as the buffs, but they were all fired at the same time in the same kilns (or clamps).





Tscarborough said:


> "Before irregularities became coveted architectural effects, common bricks were a cheap and abundant resource--a prosaic building material for places generally obscured from street traffic: side and back walls, for example, chimney flues, and structural support behind facades. People sank their money into the more decorative "face brick," which tended to have a cookie-cutter uniformity and was shipped in from other areas. "
> 
> From here:
> 
> ...


That isn't limited to Chicago by any means either. The salmons which tend towards either pink or orange have been used as inner wythes all over the world. The clinkers are usually used in inner wythes as well because of their weird shape. I think it was Fundi who said though that a full 60% of his bricks were good hard face bricks, but hopefully he'll chime in as probably the only person here to fire bricks in a kiln regularly


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

#44 Stuart45, I see G. Britain as a relatively smaller area then the English speaking Nations of North America...For better or worse the English speaking world is dominated by the USA & Canada culturally.

#45 Dom-Mas, Aren't all variations in bonding multiple wythe walls that don't show the inner construction "hidden" or "Secret" bonds....whether clip or half clip rake bond or the other possible variations, wouldn't necessity demand exact names?

I.e. “clip bond" is a fuzzy term that could mean several different bonds.

"more closely match reality", That means I believe my opinion is much closer to being what an expert 19th or early 20th Century mason knew. Many of the facts you believe are correct, but I think you have some ways to go to in your "big picture" historical accuracy, All trades in the 1850s USA onwards benefitted from massive never before occurring increases in Technology, and literacy that helped make our nation the exceptional place it was. 

Felis concolor-Also Deer tiger, Mexican Lion, Panther, Painter,& catamount.
#46 You're welcome SUM.
#47, FJN, I don't think you quite pick up that I'm referring to the "Chicago Commons" demo brick piled in a pallet box and sold as being suitable for freezing exposures.
while a fraction of these brick(the ones formerly sorted by the masons laying the original "kiln run" commons) will last a 100 years as face brick, the majority won't.

If you are seeing 120 year old brick walls that have been out in the weather the whole time, they're not regular "common" commons.

Remember almost all the really poorly constructed buildings have been demoed, don't let the survivors form your idea of the average 19th Century structures that has long since been hauled to the landfill.

Yes, they are many buildings built out of sorted common brick, the softer/crooked/burnt units used as infill wyths... Very few modern masons grasp the difference of having 2/3 or more the units used appearance or weather resistance as insignificant. Thanks for the ticket offer, but no thanks, when I visit the relatives next winter, I'll E-mail you, if you still think I'm totally wrong.

#48, Stuart45, if you can see the brick, isn't it a common laid as a face brick?????
Re: The "overcoat effect" In colder climes, the walls built with absorbent materials will explode from frost damage.

#49-50, it’s a Trig, as in Trigonometry, the trig (third point in the line), twig is just a corruption of trig. As in a line with a properly sighted trig will have only 1/4 the sag of the untrigged line. A trig could be a 'snap-over' or a 'tingle' or a dollar bill/ five lb note with a brick on it. #50 it is a tingle acting as a trig. Never seen one before 45, I haven't read THAT book yet.
#52 Glad to of help make your day.
#53, preaching to the choir, Sir.

Ran out of materials today.:smile:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> #44 Stuart45, I see G. Britain as a relatively smaller area then the English speaking Nations of North America...For better or worse the English speaking world is dominated by the USA & Canada culturally.
> 
> #45 Dom-Mas, Aren't all variations in bonding multiple wythe walls that don't show the inner construction "hidden" or "Secret" bonds....whether clip or half clip rake bond or the other possible variations, wouldn't necessity demand exact names?
> 
> ...


Yeas more English speakers in the US now than in the UK. In 1850 there were more English speakers in The UK. And they had a MUCH longer masonry pedigree as well as closer ties to the Roman past of Western Architecture.

You can believe that the reference book I have a are just written by "some guy" They aren't. The one I can find right now was written by MAlverd A Howe who was a member of the American society of Civil engineers and wrote extensively about the technological aspects of masonry. He wrote many reference books, unlike the Audel series they are almost exclusively about masonry (including concrete) . Everything I have read in this book closely matches what i have read in other books by other authors from the time period. I'm not saying that this book is the be all and end all, but his definition, coupled with 3 or 4 other similar definitions leads me to believe it was a term that was used by LITERATE tradespeople.

Also the "clipped raked bond" or whatever you want to call it is so far the ONLY hidden bond I have seen, I think is was the most common hidden bond, so if an Arch specd hidden bond and that wall was produced he would have been happy

You use the words "believe" and "opinion" in your post. If you had used those words originally i don't think you would have gotten the same response. instead you came out saying "actually" as though you are the more/most informed person. You have SOME information, your weakness is that you don't believe anyone else has any more to give you. your loose

By the way that cop out by saying that since 80% of the bricks in a wall are inner wythes (assuming a 5 wythe wall I guess, a triple wythe wall it would be 66% and not even since the header course would be made of good brick as well) that means that chicago commons are a weak brick and never meant to be exposed to the outdoors is just a weak argument. It's the same everywhere.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> #48, Stuart45, if you can see the brick, isn't it a common laid as a face brick?????
> Re: The "overcoat effect" In colder climes, the walls built with absorbent materials will explode from frost damage.
> 
> :


no they don't. Only if the water is trapped and has nowhere to go. Perhaps if the wall is super saturated just before it freezes to below-10c/ 10F. Winter is dry and water evaporates quite easily in cold temps. My grandmother hung clothes on the line all year round except for the REALLY cold days, my sister still does. In the winter the clothes come back inside and when they unfreeze are only mildly damp.
The absorbent materials are absorbent because they have somewhere/space for the water to go, they also have space for the water to freeze, so long as they aren't saturated


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> #44 Stuart45, I see G. Britain as a relatively smaller area then the English speaking Nations of North America...For better or worse the English speaking world is dominated by the USA & Canada culturally.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The fact that North America is a larger area than the UK means nothing. It's still called Clip bond here. You can call it what you like.

Clip bond is one type of bond where the stretchers are clipped.

I have not mentioned common bricks. You need to read the thread more carefully.

The overcoat effect does not effect walls built in lime mortar here.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

I do not see anything "fuzzy" about this definition of clip bond.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/clip-bond


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Here is a real simple definition of "face brick" that I have to explain daily.

If I have a customer match his brick to a cube of bricks buried in the row of commons, then that is no longer a common, it is a face brick. That is to say, if you want commons, the ones at the front are them, no matter the color or texture. If you want THAT BRICK, back there, then it is no longer a common, it is a face brick and the price changes accordingly.

That is the only thing "common brick" means.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> If you want THAT BRICK, back there, then it is no longer a common, it is a face brick and the price changes accordingly.


This was a London Brick Company common produced years ago. 
How much would you be stitching me up for if I found that one in the pack Tscar :laughing:


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Dom-Mas, #56, I'd think most brick tech came to G.B. via the Dutch. Not so much from Roman empire Era.



I didn't invent the free market, but its the reason back up brick were made, sold, and used--Chicagoans would have used the cheaper softer brick in the back up wythes. Even the face header only needed a good end for show...



I'd suggest a little more study of brick manufacturing history, the vast majority of brick makers operated by guess and by gosh, rarely able to duplicate outcomes with clamp sytle kilns, many bricks were hard and well baked, most weren't.



I admit regarding the "half clip rake bond" the alternate course most of the time would have used some version of headers tying the most likely plastered interior wythe alternating with the Hidden bond courses, (Why clip all those units if not needed?). 



A actual Tie course every Six course to both outer wythes would satistfy insurance requirements of the time, the remaining 4 courses could be any thing behind the running bond face brick. 



GranMa hung clothes out all winter, But GrandPa used portland and lime mortars that wouldn't lose an eight of an inch every year from freezing and thawing.



lime based mortars here would have to be tuck pointed every decade where they're exposed to water and freezing. The caveat to this is that lime mortars will scacrifice itself by wicking most of mortar from softer (non-FBX) brick... 



#58 Stuart45, I think if you checked your local lime mortars that were exposed to several freeze-thaw cycles and rain, you'd be able to detect damage to the mortar, especially during the your usually cold winters you've experienced recently. Darn Global warming.:smile:
Eventually you'll end up with dirty sand if any amount of water is passing through lime only mortars.

#60, "A willing buyer AND a willing seller make a deal..."

A soft brick used as an exterior face brick here will have to be replaced in 10 or 20 years. As with people, many brick are employed in inappropriate positions.
Even today many inferior grades of materials are used by the ignorant, lazy and dishonest, Why did the brick maker's Assc. in the Chicago area have Soooo many grades of 'common brick'? market needs/demands?

I my slightly more ignorant youth, I used save every left over unit I could with the idea they would end up as "commons" behind some face brick and save me enough $ to underbid my less frugal competition, sadly I discovered the chances to use the odds and ends were rarer every decade.
most of the time 4"CMUs were faster and cheaper as filler, nearly every 3+ wythe wall is design with a rebar and grout center.

A "common" brick is one that has unaltered fired clay/shale/grog surfaces. During most of my posts I referred to what are NOW known and sold as "Chicago Commons" and have been since the ~1960s across America.

Most Roman Empire/Republic Eras of masonry didn't use units that had any proportions having small common denominaters that ours do, the ratios of 1 to 3 of height to length, depth to length of 1 to 2 with a mortar joint.
So roman work provides little guidence on advanced bonding


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm not talking about technology...I'm talking about architectural terms, which is what YOU are talking about. Rome was the common denominator for all of western Europe....So if you want to have terms that apply across western construction techniques the only ones that will apply are the ones that come from Rome. The others are all regional. 

You just hit it. your confusing common brick with backup brick.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Dom-Mas, #56, I'd think most brick tech came to G.B. via the Dutch. Not so much from Roman empire Era.
> 
> 
> #58 Stuart45, I think if you checked your local lime mortars that were exposed to several freeze-thaw cycles and rain, you'd be able to detect damage to the mortar, especially during the your usually cold winters you've experienced recently. Darn Global warming.:smile:
> Eventually you'll end up with dirty sand if any amount of water is passing through lime only mortars.


Gauged and Rubbed brickwork was thought to have come from either the Flemish, or the Dutch. 

Lime mortar round here normally needs repointing every 50-100 years.
The recent winters have done more damage to modern London Brick Company Fletton face bricks than lime joints.
Lime mortar when used correctly will last a long time. The key is mixing it up right, using the correct sand, and protecting it from the elements in it's early days.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

"A "common" brick is one that has unaltered fired clay/shale/grog surfaces. During most of my posts I referred to what are NOW known and sold as "Chicago Commons" and have been since the ~1960s across America.

Most Roman Empire/Republic Eras of masonry didn't use units that had any proportions having small common denominaters that ours do, the ratios of 1 to 3 of height to length, depth to length of 1 to 2 with a mortar joint.
So roman work provides little guidence on advanced bonding "


Are you just making this **** up as you go along?


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Nowadays there are 3 main types of clay brick in the UK. 
Commons, which have no particular finish on any surface, and are used where they are normally covered or appearance is not too much of an issue. 
Facing bricks
Engineering bricks.
Modern commons are generally fired as commons, although face bricks with chipped faces may also be used.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I assume we can use the Brick Institute of America and ASTM for a reference Forthgen?

ASTM C62 Building Brick (solid masonry units, more than 75% solid)
Grade SW, MW, NW (Severe Weathering, Medium Weathering, and No Weathering, i.e. backup brick, respectively).

ASTM C 216 Facing Brick
FBS, FBX, FBA (General use, tighter dimensional, and architectural, respectively)

Note that C62 is a physical properties specification (compressive strength, absorption, and saturation coefficient) and and C216 deals with the appearance of the brick (that will also be specified by the SW or MW designation).


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Tscarborough said:


> I assume we can use the Brick Institute of America and ASTM for a reference Forthgen?





"The caveat to this is that lime mortars will sacrifice itself by wicking most of mortar from softer (Non-FBX) bricks...."


That line had me scratching my head......no,actually laughing.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Some of the older lime mortars here have lasted well over 100 years, although the mortar is considered a sacrificial item. Losing 1/8 inch a year does seem a lot, even in your climate.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> Some of the older lime mortars here have lasted well over 100 years, although the mortar is considered a sacrificial item. Losing 1/8 inch a year does seem a lot, even in your climate.






I agree,even a 1/32" a year means an inch of erosion every 32 years ! At that rate, a wall would need pointing every 8 years or less.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Sorry, I got busy and had to post before I was finished. What the above indicates is that a common brick will be defined by the C-62 specification alone, while a facing brick will have both a C-62 and a C-216 designation.

That is your difference in a nutshell.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Dom-Mas, I'm Talking BRICK LAYING terminology, journeymen should know humndreds of masonry terms that all but a few archtitects would never need to know.

I don't understand your seeking a final answers Re masonry nomenclature from archtitecture. 

Tscar- No, take a look at the vast majority of Roman brick proportions, I have.

Stuart45, I used "common" red brick to veneer my house, just fired local shale ground and baked for 4-6 weeks. FBX, average break is around 13 K, they are just a little "glassie", low end of absorbtion.

Tscar, Regarding ASTMs etc.. is that the tail wagging the masonry dog(s)? What other craftmens use the terms of a second or third party?

Would salesmen like to follow the rules of brickie foremen?

While I'm all for national stanards for commodities used in construction,
The present set up has standard creep and board sandbagging by large organizations to achieve barriers to competition, leave plenty of room for improvement lowering the cost of the codes and removing crony regulations. And its a version of the Text book scam by charging hundreds and thousands of dollars for "updates" that only have 5-10% changes...
My last bid I got referrenced 15-20 ASTMs that would have cost my tens of thousands of dollars to buy a legal copy of each...

Imagine a Healthcare(masonry) system that allowed bureacrats to set methods and word choices instead of the practitioners(Masons)--(that would be CRAZY like O-care is).

FJN, oops I meant moisture.... Hard mortar and soft brick with freezing = rubble.

Stuart45, that is the difference between climate and weather, weather like last winter in England would destroy a lot of lime mortars if they occoured every year...

Tscar, And soft used "chicago commons" meet what standard?----C62 NW?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

This is my last post on this because it has become beyond boring

I am talking architectural terms because it is architects who now and previously would spec which bond would be used in a building...NOT the bricklayer. 

I'm done you are incredibly boring and don't bring anything to this forum. You should change your user name to TNTmasonryservices


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Dom-mas, I'm sorry my belief that the practitioners of a craft ought to create the terms used among its masters and that they did. Enjoy your exciting life at the feet of your local architects.

I might be a boring ass, but I'm a well informed one.
We still have the right to be wrong in America. Enjoy yours to its fullest.
Good Bye.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Sorry, fouthgen, but you are not informed. When you can speak of Vitruvious, Dinocrates, and all of the builders (because back in the day, "architect" meant "builder") since, then you can presume to know about Roman bonding and proportions. If you have looked at Roman brickwork and have been unable to determine the rationality of their techniques, then you are simply a fool.

As regards ASTM, if you understand what exactly they are and are not, they are there for the protection of craftsmen and trade. Hacks do not like them because they expose their deficiency; professionals rely on them to validate their work.

Chicago commons meet no standard, as there was no standard during their production. If tested, the buffs will meet MW and the salmons would rate NW.

And just FYI, I have 14 years in the field before I jumped the fence into material supply. My father is a civil engineer, and his father and his father before were all in construction and I have been on jobsites since I was 5.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Those Romans sure didn't know masonry proportions and scaling.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Stuart45, that is the difference between climate and weather, weather like last winter in England would destroy a lot of lime mortars if they occoured every year...


Last winter wasn't that bad here. Even so lime mortars have lasted through many bad winters without too much trouble. 
If you go back in time the men who mixed up the mortar were experts in their trade. For the bigger jobs the lime gangs would arrive on site before the other trades and work out what mix was needed to match the climate and materials.
Some of the best gangs would travel all over Europe.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

This is an example of the bonding of a Roman wall using triangular bricks.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Close your eyes Dom-Mas,
Tscar I'm talking unit proportions, Not "ideal ratios", the concept of modularity that makes the use of brick cheaper. Something your Roman builders didn't master. I'm a Mason not an Archtitect, I use masonry terms to describe my craft, your welcome to use whatever you want.

To my "limited" knowledge the vast majority of Roman era brick work was veneered with plaster, stone, or tile, appearence of the back up wasn't much of a concern.... Have you seen a roman rusticated "dutch" bond veneer stone?

If I was desidning a new building, I'd review some of the old masters works, even some Roman copies of the better Greek works...for layout of openings, watertables, facias, and etc...

If I had to lay out the bond of inside and outside corners of a 5 wythe modular brick wall for a 19th Century building, The Romans' BRICK WORK wouldn't have much to show me.

You misunderstood me, We need ASTM like standards, just some of them are being subverted for selfish uses, and more then just a little "text book" new editions profiterring.

Stuart45, Obviously lime mortars work, just think how much better the exterior wythes would weather with some portland cement in the mortar mix...


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

This is the "normal" Roman bond, Vitruvious preferred this over ruble walls like the above.










And the above, while not obvious, is composed of wholes and halfs.


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