# Getting stiffed from homeowner



## Xtra Hands (Aug 11, 2015)

I really just felt I needed to get this off my chest. I've been in business for some time now, and never have I been scammed like this before. I got a call from a possible customer one day and posted a bid for his small window replacement job. He accepted it. We then installed the window and he liked it so much he decided to have us do the whole house. He insisted on providing the materials, so I went with it. Had my guys installing new window's, and custom made frames to fit his old house with real 2 in studs. Home owner then asks us to case and baseboard the home along with lay a new kitchen floor. At that time I asked for a 50% upfront deposit since the job was getting to be much more than originally discussed. He paid and we continued. The expected finish date was not met due to the changes In job disclosure, and material not being on time ( provided by home owner) I then told him we would need to discuss the finishing costs. He got upset stating we said we would do it for set price and had no understanding of the hickups he put in our way. Long story short we came to term and agreed to finish project at set price. He wrote a check for completed work. This is where it all falls apart. I deposit the check and get a call 2 days later from the bank letting me know he stopped payment on the check. When I spoke to the customer he said he stopped payment because of lost materials and time on projects and by his calculations no additional money was owed to us. I grew upset about this of course but as a business owner I had to be punctual. I let him know this won't stand, and if not settled between us I would need to settle the matter in small claims court. He let me know without batting an eye they he would bash our name on every single social media site there was if he had to pay for the work that was done. "Quote" pay for the work that was done" . he even said he was happy with the work, just doesn't want to pay for it and threatening my company name was his way of getting out of the cost. I lost $1,800 on this project, but learned a very valuable lesson. Never let a customer provide materials. Always rewrite a new contract, and take him to court no matter the reviews he wants to post. Thanks for listening to my rant. Any feedback is appreciated.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Take the scum sucking dirtbag to court. You have his cancelled check. That shows his intent to comply, an agreement was made as why else write it. Make the dirtbag homeowner prove his case in small claims court. Hopefully the judge will punish him.

Oh, also start the process to file a lien on his home. That would be outstanding to stick your name on his home.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

If thats all real i wouldnt piss on that POS if he was on fire and hope he meets a very bad demise. I hate a thief. 

Never had the problem myself, but just loaned a friend of mine some money to a buddy who got jacked in about the same fashion for a lot more money. Looks like he will win, hope he gets paid. 

This crap should literally be a criminal offense.


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## Xtra Hands (Aug 11, 2015)

It should be a criminal offense when we come out and work we're spending man hours were spending time and labor any time that we don't get paid it should be on them no different than if you were to walk into a Walmart and walk out without paying


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

$ 1800 isn't worth too much of your time, I'd lien it for sh!ts and giggles, then have a lawyer serve him, sue him for four times that just because you can...

Oh and by the way...welcome to school...you never get to graduate...it's always something new


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Chris Johnson said:


> $ 1800 isn't worth too much of your time, I'd lien it for sh!ts and giggles, then have a lawyer serve him, sue him for four times that just because you can...
> 
> Oh and by the way...welcome to school...you never get to graduate...it's always something new


Not much to add after that.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I would have cashed it at his bank. You must have been blind to miss all the signs pointing to a bad outcome. Cash it at his bank and then tell him to pound sand.

First time someone gets mad because I need to make a living is the time I take my toys home.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Sue him for the check then tell him if you think that was expensive wait until you get the judgement for slandering my company.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Assuming you have a paper trail... Sounds like theft of services to me...

http://definitions.uslegal.com/t/theft-of-services/


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

I met a guy a few months ago and he told me a story about what had happened to him.

Firstly, don't get pissy if the story doesn't make complete sense. Things don't always have to make sense.

Secondly, don't post about what you would have done if you only want to make the guy look stupid.

Thirdly, the guy is no businessman.

This guy did a fair amount of landscaping (wall building) for an attorney (ding, ding, ding).

The attorney got chitty and wouldn't pay him and sued him in district court (not small claims) for the costs to bring the walls up to snuff.

The worker couldn't afford to have himself represented in district court, so I guess he didn't show up and the attorney ended up with a judgement against the WORKER.

I don't think the judgement is going to be collected, but he negated anything he owed the worker.

If that makes any sense, this is how you do a lot of work for someone, don't collect a nickel in payment, and end up owing them money.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

One thing I'd like to challenge all you guys with it this....Stand up for yourself on this social media/BBB blackmail stuff from clients any way you can . I actually threatened to sue our local BBB because they wouldn't back off pressuring me to work out something with a homeowner that couldn't be pleased. I got an A- rating for that. 

Anyway, I can see how this developed and hate this ...often we just keep going and the costs and waters get muddy.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Op you are scammed. Sue him. I do not think you need lawyer. I win recently at court to. I do not think you will win easy because evidently he make mess at purpose. Judge will probably just give you part of money so that yours case will not consume government time. Key is to recognize bad customer. I learn that hard way too.


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## Ohio painter (Dec 4, 2011)

I have had a lien put on a property for non payment, but it is a slow process to collect money. I assume I will get paid one day. 
I agree about standing up to these thieves. All the social media threats can be stuck up their a$$. You will also find that these people are well known for their ways so they only rant to people of heir kind, honest people know to ignore them. 
I felt no effect from negativity of the thief who stiffed me. 

Small claims court is one option. Get a lawyer, file a lien and go to big boy court. Show them, and others, you mean business.
A word about getting a lawyer, I was advised by my lawyer on having better contracts and business practices. Be sure to follow their advice. 
When jobs get extended into a new scope get all paid up before continuing with new scope of work. It's an obvious red flag. 

Final note, I am still waiting for a payment as the lien is a slow process, a few weeks ago I was driving past the house where I had the trouble, low a behold a Sheriff Deputy was there serving papers. Made my day.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

*"I then told him we would need to discuss the finishing costs."* That was your mistake... all that additional work and the costs should have been discussed prior, signed on it and 50% or whatever should have been collected before doing anything above original agreement.

*"Long story short we came to term and agreed to finish project at set price."* I guess the is nothing in writing about the finishing costs?

With that said New Jersey strictly prohibits the writing of bad checks, or stopping payment on a check, draft, or written order with intent to defraud. 
I have a few friends who are Judges and I spoke with them not one occasion about bad checks or checks that customers stop a payment on and they all said that local township courts hate dealing with bad check charges, because they are swamped with cases and last thing they want to be is used as a collection agency to collect money on bad written checks. What they suggest is to file a collection lawsuit against the bad check in the Special Civil Part court or file Breach Of Contract lawsuit in the same court (If there is a contract even verbal) that is the only way you can recover your money quickly, because there is always a good chance to beat a bad check charge in any local municipal court.

So I assume that you are licensed, and I assume that there is something scribbled on a piece of paper about scope of original work and hopefully some changes in writing... so file this matter in Special Civil Part court and you have much better chances to recover some of your money if not all money even if there is no contract but there was a verbal agreement. If you not licensed, forget the whole thing,because nothing will help you and you not gonna see another penny.

Good luck


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Greg24k and others... I do not work with contracts but I do work with invoices. If is new customer I make invoice every week and he pay. If he can not pay he sign my invoice and say there he own me invoice sum. If he did pay I sign invoice "paid in full" and give him. Banks, if customers have credits, like invoices. And court absolutely like invoices. I win that case that I wrote before like 10 months. Invoices was from 2009 and district curt was in May 2015.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

In this state that's illegal, had a gal do that to me and I found the law online and sent it with the paperwork. It's different than if you installed something and it broke before he paid, he knew the facts and wrote a check that he did not honor. It's considered fraud here.

If it were me I would find it if it's similar there, print it and send it to him with your invoice including the stop payment fee from your bank (if there was one) and a short note that you intend to go to court if he doesn't pay in full, and give a due date. 

He obviously thinks he's slick but maybe he's mart enough to know it's a losing game. 

If you do have to sue, make sure you include court costs and process service fees.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

tipitop said:


> Greg24k and others... I do not work with contracts but I do work with invoices. If is new customer I make invoice every week and he pay. If he can not pay he sign my invoice and say there he own me invoice sum. If he did pay I sign invoice "paid in full" and give him. Banks, if customers have credits, like invoices. And court absolutely like invoices. I win that case that I wrote before like 10 months. Invoices was from 2009 and district curt was in May 2015.


It don't matter what you work with invoice or contract you still have to write up the material and scope of work and have the HO authorize you to do the work. When you have that, it means they agree with everything you will do and they give you the go ahead.

Any other way you would come and say I will do ABC for X amount without writing the work order up... HO tells you ok go ahead... After work is completed you give them an invoice and they say I thought you will also do this and that... Now you got a problem and if this goes to court and people say "we thought this and this be done" it means there wasn't a meeting of the minds and you know what you can do with that invoice. If you lucky you get to collect.

Contracts are important because they protects both parties.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Why would contractors not have contracts?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

greg24k said:


> It don't matter what you work with invoice or contract you still have to write up the material and scope of work and have the HO authorize you to do the work. When you have that, it means they agree with everything you will do and they give you the go ahead.
> 
> Any other way you would come and say I will do ABC for X amount without writing the work order up... HO tells you ok go ahead... After work is completed you give them an invoice and they say I thought you will also do this and that... Now you got a problem and if this goes to court and people say "we thought this and this be done" it means there wasn't a meeting of the minds and you know what you can do with that invoice. If you lucky you get to collect.
> 
> Contracts are important because they protects both parties.


That and around here you have a three day right to cancel. If tiptop did the work here before the three days and took it to court he would lose. No matter what invoice or even contract he had.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Verbal contracts are binding if you can back it up and I think the canceled check speaks volumes.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> That and around here you have a three day right to cancel. If tiptop did the work here before the three days and took it to court he would lose. No matter what invoice or even contract he had.


True, same here :thumbsup: 

I add that to all my contract (the 3 day period) and I have a waiver below and a signature field for customers to sign stating that they read and understand the law and they wish to waive the 3 day period and want to start work immediately.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

RangoWA said:


> Verbal contracts are binding if you can back it up and I think the canceled check speaks volumes.


True to some extend that Verbal contracts can work, and the only time they do work, is when I come in and tell you this will cost you 100 and after I'm done you pay me 100. 
BUT if the customer being a PITA and has small discrepancy about this or that and when there is nothing in writing to make a valid argument, arguing with a HO becomes a lost case and it will only piss him off.... and there is always a discrepancy, especially when it comes to pay the bill and 85% of the time, the more you argue, your chances to collect become less and less. 
This is why when put in that position without having any leverage, smart contractors hold back, they get as much as they can and move on, lesson learned- next time put everything in writing. 

If verbal contracts go to court, the court system looks at it one way... "if there is a meeting of the minds". In other words you trying to collect for A and the HO is saying he told me that B,D and C is included. 
Since its a verbal contract and there is no proof, nothing in writing, no signatures to confirm common understanding between both parties, and the only proof there can be is the receipts the contractor spent on materials for that job (even having that could be a problem to collect)... as the rest of the amount goes (the anticipated profit) falls into the Judge's hands and 90% of the time the contractor will recover the money for the material cost and as the rest of it goes it will be split in half if you lucky.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

I agree with what has already been said about social media. Don't let threats like that scare you. Even though it's something that the whole world can see, only a very small percentage of people will know that it's there in the first place. Of that small percentage most will be distracted by everything else coming at them and competing for their attention. Out of that group, there's only a handful of people who really care. And of those folks, only 1 or 2 will take the negative review seriously but those who do probably can't afford your services.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

greg24k said:


> True to some extend that Verbal contracts can work, and the only time they do work, is when I come in and tell you this will cost you 100 and after I'm done you pay me 100.
> BUT if the customer being a PITA and has small discrepancy about this or that and when there is nothing in writing to make a valid argument, arguing with a HO becomes a lost case and it will only piss him off.... and there is always a discrepancy, especially when it comes to pay the bill and 85% of the time, the more you argue, your chances to collect become less and less.
> This is why when put in that position without having any leverage, smart contractors hold back, they get as much as they can and move on, lesson learned- next time put everything in writing.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't argue that a written contract isn't better any time but if the guy wrote a check it's a promise to pay. I would think the burden would fall on him to prove he did it under duress. It seems like it would tilt the scales in the contractor's favor. 

If I understand it right, the HO canceled the check for lost time and materials. If he was late getting the windows there goes his time argument, and what's the value of the time lost anyway? Lost materials? I don't even know what that means. I think a judge would see through it. But like I said, I'd try the softer approach first, the guy may wake up.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

It becomes a peeing match with people like that ...what s bad about this is it can happen so easy . contractor Mike Stone made the comment that our value declines to the homeowner as we approach completion ....there is a something to be said about that


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

AGullion said:


> Why would contractors not have contracts?


Most guys around here don't use contracts. Most guys around here have been screwed once or twice too.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

It goes hand in hand ..I don't want a lengthy contract or the time involved on small crap, but hate runaway projects too


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

AGullion said:


> It goes hand in hand ..I don't want a lengthy contract or the time involved on small crap, but hate runaway projects too


A contract for a contractor is just good business... clears up a lot of the he said / she-he said issues and sets expectations to refer back to...

.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Amen . the clearer it is , the better it works out


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Burn his house to the ground.


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

We have the 3 day right to cancel as well. I usually get my contracts signed and deposits taken at least a week before I start the project though.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

If we had that three day deal (is that for adults????) I wouldn't think of starting until at least the fourth day.


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> That and around here you have a three day right to cancel. If tiptop did the work here before the three days and took it to court he would lose. No matter what invoice or even contract he had.



it's a federal law, it applies to a lot more than just construction contracts.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

A three day doesn't apply if they are a walk in. In other words if they negotiate a contract at your place of business, a three day right to cancel isn't applicable. If you sell the job at their home it applies here in Cali anyway.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Californiadecks said:


> A three day doesn't apply if they are a walk in. In other words if they negotiate a contract at your place of business, a three day right to cancel isn't applicable. If you sell the job at their home it applies here in Cali anyway.


I'm not sure if its the same here... I don't have a place they can walk-in so I never bothered to check when that rule applies or doesn't. I could be wrong but I think around here there is no exclusions and its 3 day right to cancel applies to any contract or sale at least for construction industry. Maybe it's diffrent for retail industry.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

greg24k said:


> I'm not sure if its the same here... I don't have a place they can walk-in so I never bothered to check when that rule applies or doesn't. I could be wrong but I think around here there is no exclusions and its 3 day right to cancel applies to any contract or sale at least for construction industry. Maybe it's diffrent for retail industry.


Same here I don't have a store front


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I use a contract with my clients, not with my subs. I send the specs in an email, they return the email. Thats it. 

If a sub wants me to sign a contract agreeing to what i have agreed to already, i have no problem with that. My decorative concrete guy used to have everyone sign every proposal. The last 3 jobs he has just emailed me a quote and i returned the email. I dont know if he quit the practice or just knows im on the level. Im sure by this point all of our subs know we will pay them on time even if the client doesnt. Thats been tested, and proven multiple times. 

I have been burned by a couple ex subs on their last job, but i wouldnt of taken it to court so it wouldn't of mattered if id had a contract with them. Its like going after a sub you fired for warranty. Yeah, that piece of paper will help a lot.....


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

*Getting Stiffed From Homeowner*

I'm starting to make some changes but I still do 99% of my work with a handshake. I'm sure sounds crazy but it's how I've done it since beginning. Do 400-450 houses a year this way half as a sub and half for homeowners


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

NYgutterguy said:


> I'm starting to make some changes but I still do 99% of my work with a handshake. I'm sure sounds crazy but it's how I've done it since beginning. Do 400-450 houses a year this way half as a sub and half for homeowners


If I was doing gutters I'd be fine with a handshake. It's once you start getting into 3-5 days with a helper and a bunch of material that I would start to get nervous on handshake only.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

SamM said:


> If I was doing gutters I'd be fine with a handshake. It's once you start getting into 3-5 days with a helper and a bunch of material that I would start to get nervous on handshake only.



I agree completely. There isn't much miscommunication doing just pretty much one thing.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Yall get your contracts notarized?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

country_huck said:


> it's a federal law, it applies to a lot more than just construction contracts.


No is a state law.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

The part where he says it applies to more than construction law and is federal, he's correct. It is a federal law when signing a mortgage. Not construction though.


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

I'm still pretty sure that it's a federal law that any work solicited and performed on the principal residence of the property owner must be given no less than two copies for each person on contract. (And the is a case were they can imply both husband and wife need two copies each even if only one is signing the contact). 

I'm sure each state has there own added rules to that.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

country_huck said:


> I'm still pretty sure that it's a federal law that any work solicited and performed on the principal residence of the property owner must be given no less than two copies for each person on contract. (And the is a case were they can imply both husband and wife need two copies each even if only one is signing the contact).
> 
> I'm sure each state has there own added rules to that.


There is no federal construction contract law for private property.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

RangoWA said:


> Verbal contracts are binding if you can back it up and I think the canceled check speaks volumes.


that shows there was some sort of agreement, not contract, but agreement. So now it goes "what was agreed upon?" Like you said, him writing the check indicates an agreed upon amount.


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

Everything I just read online said they do because the fact that we can Lien the property. Now as I said it only applies if you solicited at there home or a place not your normal office. (Trade show, conference, ect).


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

Also read that if the paper work is not issued the owners right extends to three years.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

country_huck said:


> Everything I just read online said they do because the fact that we can Lien the property. Now as I said it only applies if you solicited at there home or a place not your normal office. (Trade show, conference, ect).


Nope feds don't have justification over private state property, as far as liens go. If that was the case we would have to file liens with a fed office not a state or county one. Would you mind posting what you read online?


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=dbd069a0ccd2a7dae84e450149213577&node=pt16.1.429&rgn=div5


Here is a link if I posted it correct,


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

There does seem to be a federal law. If you don't get a waiver or don't have them sign the notice they have three years to cancel.

12 C.F.R. 226.15


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

Which is a good way to get stiffed out of the last draw or two. All they would have to do is resend the contract and your screwed.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

You could get screwed or of the whole amount.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

country_huck said:


> http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=dbd069a0ccd2a7dae84e450149213577&node=pt16.1.429&rgn=div5
> 
> 
> Here is a link if I posted it correct,


Thank you for that info.

I've taken classes on this stuff and it was never mentioned


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## PCI (Jun 8, 2012)

The cruel part is that if you don't give them the 3 day recission, you cannot sign it away. Some extreme circumstances yes. This is all based on owner occupied units.

They can be happy with uour services, pay you and 2yrs, 364 days later recind the contract and you will be required to give back the money. 

This is MN case law. An attorney pulled it, used it, on a contractor friend of mine.


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

There is also a some fickle little rules if you finance a project even with your money or take 3or more (maybe it's 4) payments after a job is finished. You fall in to all the truth and lending laws.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

PCI said:


> The cruel part is that if you don't give them the 3 day recission, you cannot sign it away. Some extreme circumstances yes. This is all based on owner occupied units.
> 
> They can be happy with uour services, pay you and 2yrs, 364 days later recind the contract and you will be required to give back the money.
> 
> This is MN case law. An attorney pulled it, used it, on a contractor friend of mine.


Some of these laws may be good for unscrupulous contractors, but they has a tendency to bite an honest guy in the bunger.


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

Legality varies state to state so be careful with it but here I am allowed to record all my phone conversations (one party permission). I have an app that records every call that comes through, have never had to use it and hope I never have to but its some piece of mind. I only do contracts on large jobs and on any job that I have to purchase say a door or cabinets (any item that I either can't return or it would cost me time to return) I get payment in full for materials upfront.


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## oktex56 (Dec 30, 2011)

On a positive note I have a buddy in TX who sued and won on slander using social media... Js


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## LI-Remodeler (Feb 3, 2015)

Checks become a legal document in a business transaction. It is fraud to cancel a check after product and services have been rendered. 

I bet you still would have lost money if the check cleared. Sounds like this guy saw a sucker and knew he could take advantage of you. He knew it the moment you gave him the ridiculous low price for the work and didn't have your paper work in order. 

This guy picks and chooses who he deals with, something you need to learn to do.


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