# Masonry Groined Vault part IV. (closed.)



## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

I have been holding my breath for the past weeks. 
If I receive a call from the site my heart stopped beating. 

The whole roof at a glance seems to defy gravity. I dont think anyone has checked for faults like we have been checking. :laughing: Few people have had self doubts. Sq ft in a day? Dont ask.

I had to go out of town overnight and recieved a call, but it was to ask if i "want to come and watch the keybricks?"


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

And yes in the first pic Festo is barefoot. Which brings up an aside story.

It is slow building a groined vault. the groin entails complicated , changing cuts. So I contemplated bringing on another mason and teaching him. Dickson on the right suggests we promote Festo the helper to mason to do the arches while he is doing the harder groin. Festo is happy as a pig in shhhhh.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

As I said in end of part III, we went higher with the horizontal courses. Everything was pretty smooth then i somehow missed this.










Yep, up there on top left the groin pieces started to slant up. Probably not a problem as they followed the catenary curve but why take a chance.









Now this amazes me, we could remove several pieces ( well actually 4 horizonatal courses) and the arches just hung up there in the air while we redid the offending pieces. Luckily the same guys who check for wall ties didn't happen by.

We now had to use the level on a curved wall as well as the strings but then we had it. Which slowed down the sq feet / day even more. But hey, dont catch us bragging on the other post about how fast lick and stick we do. (Even on straight walls we are damn slow)

Even with the strings on top of the arches, it is hard to keep the groin right . We started using level also on the groin pieces and also checking with level if we were "straight" on the bottom of the vault also, and following the two curves. Hard to explain.










With about 1 metre 3 fft) to go on each side we stopped horizontal in the groin and did what we did on the flatter groin vaults on the floor beneath us.





I have more pics along the way, albeit all from the phone so lousy quality and no flash. Ask and i post more.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

Fundi said:


> Ask and i post more.


Pretty please with sugar on top!


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

That is beautiful. We'll take all the pics you have of that.:clap:


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## TIGHTER MITER (Jul 9, 2011)

Fracking amazing!:clap:


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

I think I want to go to Tanzania just to help on the next one.:thumbsup:


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

In order to not repeat pictures and/ or if you didn't read them here are threads related to this building.

Here I talk about my first groined vaults 3meter square low angle, and ask if anyone knows how to cut the groin pieces.


Then we started on the 6m (~20ft) steep groined vault.

Here I show the failure and explain why I think it happened.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

One of the lessons learned. I was trying to start with too small of a base, and cantelevered out from the base. This concentrates the weight, better to spread it out, spread it out to edge of beam or column.


This is better way to do it.









Do not do it this way!! I can't believe I didnt tear this down, it was the first groin and we were messing around with the pattern.








Expect to spend time redoing the first time, play around, tear it down,


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

This time we went up 2.1meters high on horizonatal courses.







My worry is without completing the arch there is nothing to hold it up, whereas vertical courses are self supporting when completed when one arch is completed. However when building the next steep groined vault we will go up higher horizonatally, maybe make some supports in the groin until the vertical catch up.








This time we used more over burnt brick, were more careful getting the cuts right, and every day filled the small void with stronger mortar. Higher up we did every two days.
















Yeah the pointing is messy, the joint is smaller than normal on the intrados.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

It is poetry but not in motion. How does it stay up while building? Opposing forces and gravity.


















Originally this was to have a wood floor/ceiling, then wood truss and corrugatted iron roof! I spend too much time admiring this building.








I was in Dar es Salaam, (our capital, a big, 3 million, sprawling city) when I got the call they wanted to close vault. It was raining and I felt like i was looking out over a scene from the movie "Blade runner". Why would anyone want to live here, in a ugly buildings , looking at other ugly buildings, which in one year look old and rusted? 








This time we plastered 2cm mortar over the top as we went along. At first thinking it would keep arches together, later to stop rain leaking through the clay mortar and messing up the bricks on bottom side. We did get two seperating of arches (maybe 1mm) , the cement mortar on top didnt help, so the reason for plastering is only to stop rain seeping through.








Anxious to get the bricks cleaned , pointed and scoffolding removed. 
Contemplating whether to leave a glass skylight in the middle, contemplating whether putting some clear bottles in here and there for more light. any thoughts? Not sure how dark it will be in there.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

Out of sequence picture. Note the groin piece there. It is being held by mortar until the arch goes in on top of it.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

bottom half of stairs. Maybe there is too much brick in this house! After the stair turns, now i have to make half an arch and put the stairs on top of an arch. Thinking of Catalonia (Timbrel) arch method on the stairs arch.








The retaining wall on the side of this house. We are lousy with stone. After joining this forum, realize we have a long way to go with stone masonry. This stone came out of a hole for the rainwater tank. We don't reshape and use too much mortar.


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## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

That retaining wall has all kinds of structural errors. No fear, it probably is one meter thick and it looks like it has enough cement to load three cement trucks. Your safe there. Honestly your Brickwork with the groined vault pictures here looks like the grail for brick lovers. How can one compete with That?


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## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

Fundi- About the City picture.. I look at those type of buildings and wonder what would happen if they were to shake. I know they are reinforced with steel and I pray the steel workers did their job when in comes to constructing those buildings. In the densly populated areas of course, I would also expect all decent buildings to have been built following a safe guideline.. Who knows really.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

JD3lta said:


> Fundi- About the City picture.. I look at those type of buildings and wonder what would happen if they were to shake. I know they are reinforced with steel and I pray the steel workers did their job when in comes to constructing those buildings. In the densly populated areas of course, I would also expect all decent buildings to have been built following a safe guideline.. Who knows really.


Yeah, who knows. And even if it was built well, who is watching the integrity of a building? Engineer in charge at my office building doesnt like me drilling 1" holes in vibrated walls but doesnt notice the rust marks on the concrete ceiling of underground walk through. 

Yeah I know there are structural errors in the rock walls. Even in my brick walls they happen. I am your average hack who by luck of location can try vaults.


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## RiverCityMason (Jun 17, 2010)

Amazing stuff there Fundi. It would be interesting to know how the hell you all kept those arches progressing with no form or template of some sort. Cool freaking house though:thumbup:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Incredible stuff. I can't believe you built a groin vault without any centres!!!

One of my teachers (saw him on a job many years later) was building one for a wine cellar. The engineer asked him how he was going to do it. Figured he'd have to hang each brick with wire then cut the wire and point after. Yeah I'm sure that's how the romans did it. 

Again beautiful work. I'd love to be involved in a project like that. What a lerning experience. And i thought a rumford fireplace had some figuring


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## MasonS (Sep 11, 2011)

Fundi said:


> I am your average hack who by luck of location can try vaults.


Ok. I get that you are a modest guy but that's just plain wrong. Your work is beautiful; please keep posting pics.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

RiverCityMason said:


> It would be interesting to know how the hell you all kept those arches progressing with no form or template of some sort.


We do use a template on each of the walls. Then we put strings on top of each template to the other side. That is our template and string line.

Formwork. As I have said, clay/sand mortar acts like a glue. Capillary action draws the bricks together You butter the brick, stick it up, tap a bit, hold for 3-10 seconds and it holds (usually ). Once one arch is done you breathe a sigh of relief. I will upload a movie to youtube.

We have also used hooks temporarily lightly holding the brick from above until you finish the particular arch.

I borrowed my wife's camera and took better pics today as most of the scaffolding has been removed and bricks cleaned the first time. I will try to post those when i have the cable. Looks better now.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

The good news is we got a vault job. A New Winery is building showroom and saw this building and want a vault roof. Not groined vault though. Maybe soon we can stop doing walls.

Bad news is I wont finish pointing and plastering outside for awhile.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JD3lta said:


> That retaining wall has all kinds of structural errors.


 
I am curious what you see in the picture that would make you say this. There are a few running joints but what else?


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Fundi said:


> The good news is we got a vault job. A New Winery is building showroom and saw this building and want a vault roof. Not groined vault though. Maybe soon we can stop doing walls.
> 
> Bad news is I wont finish pointing and plastering outside for awhile.


I have enjoyed your threads Fundi. Great work!:thumbsup:


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## wood_rots (Dec 6, 2011)

The talent required to do this is great.
Rules, regulations, codes aside.
I bow to you.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

*Better pics*

I borrowed wife's camera, cleaned faces, moved all but one scaffolding out took some more pics. 





































Ahh yeah, I have to resize them. If you want to see all go to :

http://alternativebuildingtz.blogspot.com/2011/12/before-pointing.html

http://alternativebuildingtz.blogspot.com/2011/12/blog-post.html

I later figured out how to make a link to picture instead of uploading them.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)




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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)




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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

*Imperfections*

Earlier I had mentioned that the groin was not right and we removed some. with the scoffolding in place It was not always easy to check by eye. Now this cosmetic imperfection is pretty obvious. Structurally it is okay but really too bad we didnt catch it.










Added two days later:
I hadn't noticed the bricks in the groin going wrong when I took the picture. Only looking at the picture did i see it. And then today I was standing up and couldn't find the groin with these mistakes until i laid on the floor.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

I am going to cantelever, or step out, the ends so to have more overhang over the walls. The arch on right you can see we layed a brick down and then started another course. There are two upside down steps.

What i also wanted to show is how well the clay holds the bricks in place.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Great work Fundi,
This could lead to a lot of work for you in the Wine bars.
Do you great much rainall in your area?


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

stuart45 said:


> Great work Fundi,
> This could lead to a lot of work for you in the Wine bars.
> Do you great much rainall in your area?


Rainfall varies between 250 and 1200mm per year. We rarely get all day drizzle, usually we get dumped on heavy in a short period.

The small structures on outside cornors are for catching rainwater into underground tanks

I still am deciding on what to put on top of roof for waterproofing. Afraid it will be chicken wire in and waterproof cement plaster.

I hope the tourist hotels go for it when expanding.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

Back to this picture with the groin bricks out of line (?) . 










I hadn't noticed the bricks in the groin going wrong when I took the picture. Only when looking at this picture when posting did i see it. However today I was standing up and looking for this spot from the sides and I couldn't find it until i laid on the floor! But the more i look at the picture maybe only two are slightly off the others might be becuase of camera optics.

Some of you have said you want to make a groined vault for your own home some day. So my point to both of us is : Get off the scaffolding and lay on the floor once a day to make extra sure of the groin bricks are right in every dimension. While you are there feel good, relax a bit.

(I am glad i wont sleep in this room as it would be unbearable to see this one groin each morning. In the next few years I build a house like this for me but perfect. )


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

Fundi said:


> Back to this picture with the groin bricks out of line (?) .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm laying on the floor and I still don't really see what you are talking about.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

More stats for your and my reference:

-It took about 45 mason days for the roof only. That includes redoing one sections, talking to me everyday. moving scaffolding. thin plaster on top each day. 6 days of those were 2 masons, but total mason days 45.

-It is 5.8 meters square inside. 

-One helper. carrier, mud mixer. 

~3200 bricks. 70 bricks per day! 

-in ground floor ceiling the last vault section 3m square took only 6 days, 950 bricks. 


-The time spent on groin sections perpendicular to the wall is about same time as doing the arches parallel to the walls!

-groin bricks were cut by a 1 meter long bow wood saw, with worn out wood blades! We used 5 blades.

- the room is empty, there is 0 echo and 0 reverberation. try that in a square empty room.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

lukachuki said:


> I'm laying on the floor and I still don't really see what you are talking about.


Now you got me on the floor laughing. Picture is on the Internet so it must be true.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Still can't believe you did that without centres. incredible. Can't say that enough times


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Fundi, how much do your brick weight apiece? Are they made by hand? Man, I'm not much for brickwork unless it is early or has a ton of detail but these pics make me want to build one of those!!:thumbsup::thumbup: That hole on top reminds me of the oculus on the pantheon.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

stonecutter said:


> Fundi, how much do your brick weight apiece? Are they made by hand? Man, I'm not much for brickwork unless it is early or has a ton of detail but these pics make me want to build one of those!!:thumbsup::thumbup: That hole on top reminds me of the oculus on the pantheon.


They are just shy of 3kgs or 6.5 lbs, maybe less. ( i will weigh ten again, as it was some years ago) 

Yes they are hand made by slop method. The melted mishapen ones are not wanted around here but in a wall they can turn out great. like below. all them needed serious shaping.

The joints are too big as done by someone learning and the bricks were very mishapen, but i like it.








I totally agree, If you are going to go with brick then go into detail and as much "character" or changes in a straight wall as you can. Like corbels at top of walls or corbelling below beams sticking out. Simple column in a wall or offset the wall for a section. If i could drystack i would build less brick walls though.

But then it adds to the cost. 

Someone of your skill in stone could do some amazing brick work. 

Yeah the opening in the middle is cool. I am thinking of making it slightly larger, then putting a glass box in the opening full of water. The ilumination would be much greater. I just had a thought, what if there were gold fish swiming in the water?


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Thats great, I suspected they were handmade...they have that quality to them. The home were I did those granite steps was built with handmade brick with clay from the banks of a river about 200 yrds from the site. Tight work and v joints really added character.

There are brick homes in CT that were built with these very rustic brick. I dont know what they are called, though one guy called them clinker bricks...one of them are the same and some protuded here and there. I liked the look as it more resembled stone than brick.

The wall you built isnt horrible..you just need to be more aware of the running joints. When you are building a wet wall it helps to "dry fit" the stones before you add bed mortar. This way the stones will have a better flow and look like they belong together. The way your wall looks I feel like you were building as you would with brick..placing a mortar bed then laying stone...its not uncommon to see this.

Glass would be a neat addition to the vault but I think the goldfish would fry up there.:laughing:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> There are brick homes in CT that were built with these very rustic brick. I dont know what they are called, though one guy called them clinker bricks...one of them are the same and some protuded here and there. I liked the look as it more resembled stone than brick.
> 
> :


Clinkers are a brick that was baked too close to the fire in the brick kiln. They are vitrified (and go "clink" when tapped together rather than a good brick which goes "tink")and very hard and twisted. The opposite would be the salmon bricks which are fired too far away and are too soft. Clinkers are fine for building but typically aren't desirable because of the shape whereas salmon bricks are too soft and ca only be used interior.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

stonecutter said:


> but I think the goldfish would fry up there.:laughing:


plus feeding them would be a pain.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Clinkers are a brick that was baked too close to the fire in the brick kiln. They are vitrified (and go "clink" when tapped together rather than a good brick which goes "tink")and very hard and twisted. The opposite would be the salmon bricks which are fired too far away and are too soft. Clinkers are fine for building but typically aren't desirable because of the shape whereas salmon bricks are too soft and ca only be used interior.


The bricks that I saw were pretty rustic..I never had a chance to bang two of them together. The colors varied from dark red to dark brown. Based on your description it seems like they are indeed clinkers. I thought the houses looked cool but I guess its not for everyone.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

i think you'd need to be close to the kiln in order to get enough clinkers to do a house. Only a few percent would be unfit for normal use.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> i think you'd need to be close to the kiln in order to get enough clinkers to do a house. Only a few percent would be unfit for normal use.


Maybe manufactured to look that way..I can't say for sure. It is note worthy that the homes I saw were isolated to a couple towns about 1/2 hr apart.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> i think you'd need to be close to the kiln in order to get enough clinkers to do a house. Only a few percent would be unfit for normal use.


I imagine in the USA and Europe the kilns are so controlled and measured they dont get clinkers or "salmon" bricks. Here in the other world when i make changes (like fuel) I can have alot of clinkers (has been as high as 25%) and salmon bricks. On a good kiln 2-4% are clinkers and 3-10% are "salmon" I used to reburn all the salmon ones but now sell them cheap. I do alot of my own stuff around the house with these two. 

Clinkers were also used for road paving.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

stonecutter said:


> The wall you built isnt horrible..you just need to be more aware of the running joints. When you are building a wet wall it helps to "dry fit" the stones before you add bed mortar. This way the stones will have a better flow and look like they belong together. The way your wall looks I feel like you were building as you would with brick..placing a mortar bed then laying stone...its not uncommon to see this.


YOu are right. Thanks for the tip.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

I need more roof overhang so I cantilevered the roof out. It is now about 30cm or a foot. Will probably drill holes in 5 of the top bricks and tie them back to the weld mesh on top.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

*Brick Railings?*

I wasn't sure it would look good as a railing, so we put up one section just to see. 
It will need a reinforced concrete beam on top. Not pointed yet.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

Pointing was done last week.










I wish we would of cut a wedge brick in the groin instead of filling with strong mortar. I was too worried about strength.

I thought i would need light in the apex and maybe ventilation. I wanted to see effect of water in a bottle. Now I think i close it up and not disturb the effect. there are small windows high up on end walls that will get give ventilation.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

video showing how we build with out centering. Scaffolding was elsewhere for the first few days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueILoglbAhE






Apologies dont have time to figure how to embed right now


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Can't say I'm crazy about the railing but I love the heck out of the corbelling and the arches


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

the scaffolding is priceless:thumbsup: get'er done! love your contributions Fundi


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

How many times have you been hit in the head with a brick doing this style work? :laughing:

Ya know my friends on the board here bust my chops over plank and bucket scaffolding... when will they ever learn 

Looking fabulous my friend - could you give me that mix your using again?...I gotta go back over this thread...I fear i missed a lot :sad:

BTW...pointing looks great!


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> Can't say I'm crazy about the railing but I love the heck out of the corbelling and the arches


any suggestions for railing? metal?


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

superseal said:


> How many times have you been hit in the head with a brick doing this style work? :laughing:


Not yet ,but the other thread about protective gear woke me up a bit. We will start using for vault work. When we tore down the first vault attempt we wore bicycle helmets as that what was handy  In the brick factory we had someone get hit by a flying brick unloading once. I should learn. 



superseal said:


> Looking fabulous my friend - could you give me that mix your using again?...I gotta go back over this thread...I fear i missed a lot :sad:


Thanks dude. Mix is about 60% clay and 40% fine volcanic sand. Pointing is lime/portland/sand. Even the walls are same except the first two courses are portland/sand. Vaults the brick are put up dry.


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