# Level 5 Misconceptions



## wallnatural (Oct 21, 2013)

I had a finisher try to tell me that the reason why I can see speed bumps on a hallway (almost every joint was humped out bad) Is because the GC asked for a level 4 finish and If he wanted it 100% flat He should have paid for a level 5. I dont know about you guys but a level 4 still needs to be flat it just means you finish the joints, angles, and screws. A level 5 is a tight skim after you achieve a level 4 and sand it. The reason for a level 5 is not to flatten at all just to achieve a consistentcy of all mud so you cant see the difference in texture between the mudded portions of the wall and the paper face of the sheetrock. All in all a level 4 should be flat. Is this just a geographical thing or is it a universal concept?


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

maybe its me but you shouldnt see the joints on any level other then firetaped


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

wallnatural said:


> I had a finisher try to tell me that the reason why I can see speed bumps on a hallway (almost every joint was humped out bad) Is because the GC asked for a level 4 finish and If he wanted it 100% flat He should have paid for a level 5. I dont know about you guys but a level 4 still needs to be flat it just means you finish the joints, angles, and screws. A level 5 is a tight skim after you achieve a level 4 and sand it. The reason for a level 5 is not to flatten at all just to achieve a consistentcy of all mud so you cant see the difference in texture between the mudded portions of the wall and the paper face of the sheetrock. All in all a level 4 should be flat. Is this just a geographical thing or is it a universal concept?


Depends where you are I'm sure. I can see the board joints on every home around here from $100k-$1.3m. The only time I don't see them is when texture is done and I think its a common reason around here for texture. Most people won't spot the joints unless a powerful light is held down the wall but most contractors will spot it. 

Here's one done by a so called pro drywall company in this area. Every joint looked like this. HO couldn't tell until I put my light down the wall. But most HO don't know any better. If you want a flat finish here you have to ask for a level 5. Some drywall guys I have spoken to didnt even know what the level system was lol


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Level 5 is meant to prevent flashing on the finished painted surface


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

ASTM Standard C840

"
Level 4 All joints and interior angles shall have tape embedded in joint compound and shall be immediately wiped with a joint knife or trowel leaving a thin coating of joint compound over all joints and interior angles. Two separate coats of joint compound shall be applied over all flat joints. One separate coat of joint compound shall be applied over interior angles. Fastener heads and accessories shall be covered with three separate coats of joint compound. *All joint compounds shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges *(see 22.4.1.1). The prepared surface shall be covered with a drywall primer prior to the application of the final decoration.
"

http://www.mpi.net/mpitraining/level1/standards/ASTM.asp 

Also here:

http://nationalgypsum.com/resources/tech-talk-revisiting.htm

"
Level 4
If the final decoration is to be a flat paint, light texture or lightweight wall covering, a Level 4 finish is recommended. As stated in Level 4, "All joints and interior angles shall have tape embedded in joint compound and shall be immediately wiped with a joint knife leaving a thin coating of joint compound over all joints and interior angles. Two separate coats of joint compound shall be applied over all flat joints and one separate coat of joint compound shall be applied over interior angles. Fastener heads and accessories shall be covered with three separate coats of joint compound. All joint compound shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges." It is recommended that the prepared surface be coated with a drywall primer prior to the application of final finishes.

In severe lighting areas, flat paints applied over light textures tend to reduce joint photographing. Paints with sheen levels other than flat as well as enamel paints are not recommended over this level of finish. Special attention should be paid to long corridors, large areas of wall, and large/multiple windows when specifying Level 4, because these areas are potential areas of concern in achieving acceptable wall finishes, and may need to be specified appropriately.
"

I consider humped seams a level 2 finish.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

wallnatural said:


> I had a finisher try to tell me that the reason why I can see speed bumps on a hallway (almost every joint was humped out bad) Is because the GC asked for a level 4 finish and If he wanted it 100% flat He should have paid for a level 5. I dont know about you guys but a level 4 still needs to be flat it just means you finish the joints, angles, and screws. A level 5 is a tight skim after you achieve a level 4 and sand it. The reason for a level 5 is not to flatten at all just to achieve a consistentcy of all mud so you cant see the difference in texture between the mudded portions of the wall and the paper face of the sheetrock. All in all a level 4 should be flat. Is this just a geographical thing or is it a universal concept?



LEVELS OF GYPSUM BOARD FINISH

LEVEL 1 - Tape set in joint compound. Tool marks and ridges acceptable. Surface is free of excess joint compound. 

Suggested use: Frequently specified in areas above ceilings, in attics, in areas where the assembly would generally be concealed, or in areas not normally open to public view. Some degree of sound and smoke control is provided. In some geographic areas, this level is referred to as "fire-taping". Tape and fastener heads need not be covered with joint compound.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 2 - Tape embedded in joint compound and wiped with a joint knife, leaving a thin coat of compound over tape. Surface shall be covered by one separate coat of joint compound. Surface shall be free of excess joint compound. Tool marks and ridges acceptable. Joint compound applied over the body of the tape at the time of tape embedment shall be considered a separate coat of joint compound and shall satisfy the conditions of this level. 

Suggested use: Specified where water-resistant gypsum backing board is used as a substrate for tile. May also be specified in garages, warehouse storage or other similar areas where surface appearance is not of primary concern.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 3 - Taped as in level #2, then covered with two separate coats of joint compound. Joint compound shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges. Note: It is recommended that the prepared surface be coated with a drywall primer prior to the application of final finishes. 

Suggested use: Typically specified in appearance areas which are to receive heavy or medium texture finishes before final painting, or where heavy-grade wall coverings are to be applied as the final decoration. This level of finish is not recommended where smooth painted surfaces, or light to medium weight wall coverings are specified.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 4 - Taped as in level #2, then covered with three separate coats of joint compound. Joint compound shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges. Note: It is recommended that the prepared surface be coated with a drywall primer prior to the application of final finishes.

Suggested use: This level should be specified where flat paints, light textures or wall coverings are to be applied. In critical lighting areas, flat paints applied over light textures tend to reduce joint photographing. Gloss, semi-gloss and enamel paints are not recommended over this level of finish. The weight, texture and sheen level of wall coverings applied over this level of finish should be carefully evaluated. Joints and fasteners must be adequately concealed if the wall covering material is lightweight, contains limited pattern, has a gloss finish or any combination of these features is present. Un-backed vinyl wall-coverings are not recommended over this level of finish.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 5 - Taped as in level #4. Surface shall be covered by three separate coats of joint compound. A thin skim coat of joint compound, or a material manufactured especially for this purpose, shall be applied to the entire surface. The surface shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges. Note: It is recommended that the prepared surface be coated with a drywall primer prior to the application of final finishes.

Suggested use: This level of finish is highly recommended where gloss, semi-gloss, enamel or non-textured flat paints are specified, or where severe lighting conditions occur. This highest quality finish is the most effective method to provide a uniform surface and minimize the possibility of joint photographing and of fasteners showing through the final decoration.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

GLOSSARY


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Critical Lighting - Strong sidelighting from windows or surface-mounted light fixtures. Wall and ceiling areas abutting windows or skylights, long hallways, or atriums with large surface areas flooded with artificial and/or natural lighting are a few examples of critical lighting areas. *Strong sidelighting from windows or surface-mounted light fixtures may reveal even minor surface imperfections. Light striking the surface obliquely, at a very slight angle, greatly exaggerates surface irregularities. If critical lighting cannot be avoided, the effects can be minimized by skim coating the gypsum board surfaces*, by decorating the surface with medium to heavy textures, or by the use of draperies and blinds which soften shadows. In general, gloss, semi-gloss, and enamel finishes highlight surface defects; textures hide minor imperfections.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> I can see the board joints on every home around here from $100k-$1.3m.


I think it's easier to hide them consistently if you don't break the joints on studs. From there, I'm good if it isn't noticeable with with room light or outside lite, but that's really from the patching and reno side, not new drywall. I just use the 12" knife edge to see how much fill has to happen where to get it flat enough. Keep going until there isn't a noticeable gap under the edge.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

Drywall finished to a level 4 should be flat for sure. :thumbsup:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Huh. I have been calling level 5 a 4 for ever. Time to change the contract verbiage. Level 5 is the only way to go. I complete skim EVERY project now. Doesnt take much more time and creates a much nicer finish. I'm thinking about mixing primer into my skim mix just to try it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Huh. I have been calling level 5 a 4 for ever. Time to change the contract verbiage. Level 5 is the only way to go. I complete skim EVERY project now. Doesnt take much more time and creates a much nicer finish. I'm thinking about mixing primer into my skim mix just to try it.


Same here. Hitting it with my sander takes hardly anymore time and applying it hardly any either.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Level 4 is the finish before a light texture or wall covering. Sometimes even before texturing you have to coat out joints real wide to hide the seams. Level 4 is misunderstood


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Level 5 is meant to prevent flashing on the finished painted surface




That's part of what a good primer does.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

In commercial we are seeing a lot of the high build, self leveling primers used to achieve a Lvl 5. Flatness is common misconception.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Level 5 is meant to prevent flashing on the finished painted surface





hdavis said:


> That's part of what a good primer does.


It's pretty clear that Level 5 is primarily meant to prevent flashing



> _LEVEL 5 - Taped as in level #4. Surface shall be covered by three separate coats of joint compound. A thin skim coat of joint compound, or a material manufactured especially for this purpose, shall be applied to the entire surface. The surface shall be smooth and free of tool marks and ridges. Note: It is recommended that the prepared surface be coated with a drywall primer prior to the application of final finishes.
> 
> Suggested use: This level of finish is highly recommended where gloss, semi-gloss, enamel or non-textured flat paints are specified, or where severe lighting conditions occur.* This highest quality finish is the most effective method to provide a uniform surface and minimize the possibility of joint photographing and of fasteners showing through the final decoration.*_


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Anti-wingnut said:


> It's pretty clear that Level 5 is primarily meant to prevent flashing


My point was you don't have to do level 5 to prevent flashing. It's a lot more work to do a level 5 than just using the right primer.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Here's one the guys finished this morning..


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)




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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Depends where you are I'm sure. I can see the board joints on every home around here from $100k-$1.3m. The only time I don't see them is when texture is done and I think its a common reason around here for texture. Most people won't spot the joints unless a powerful light is held down the wall but most contractors will spot it.
> 
> Here's one done by a so called pro drywall company in this area. Every joint looked like this. HO couldn't tell until I put my light down the wall. But most HO don't know any better. If you want a flat finish here you have to ask for a level 5. Some drywall guys I have spoken to didnt even know what the level system was lol
> 
> ...



High shoulder board ? Pick a brand.:whistling
Most ''drywall guys'' Still finish there rock off like they did 10-15 years ago ,as it should be! but now The wallboard won't allow that. These days the butt joints can be easier to finish off than the seams .Since the Housing /mortgage crash all the drywall materials I use to love to work with I now hate to see .. Load a home with osb and buckets full of red clay and I can give you a better finish then what USG , N/G,and Certainteed are sending out these days... 


The first 2 pics are l/w/USG over floor joist that were up down. up down. up down..Which makes the high shoulders REALLY BAD..The last pick is USG regular board over floor joist that were as perfect a frame job anyone could ask for ..I still had to bust out the high shoulders on the seams. :sad:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

hdavis said:


> My point was you don't have to do level 5 to prevent flashing. It's a lot more work to do a level 5 than just using the right primer.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

It is my understanding level 5 was designed for schools and hospitals. Places that are almost always painted with semi or gloss paint and had very harsh lighting. Under these conditions any small flaw would look gigantic. A bad level 4 with a skim coat is not a level 5, a almost perfect level 4 with a perfect skim is a level 5.
I read all the time about doing a level 5 for a H/O then painting it with flat paint. Why bother? do a good level 4 the flat paint will do the rest. A true level 5 should cost at least double a level 4 because under the hardest condition and the brightest lights it must be perfect.
If you want to do a level 5 you should work with your painter and get on the same page because a bad paint job can sink your level 5.
Sorry for the rant but this is a pet peeve of mine.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

ToolNut said:


> It is my understanding level 5 was designed for schools and hospitals. Places that are almost always painted with semi or gloss paint and had very harsh lighting. Under these conditions any small flaw would look gigantic. A bad level 4 with a skim coat is not a level 5, a almost perfect level 4 with a perfect skim is a level 5.
> I read all the time about doing a level 5 for a H/O then painting it with flat paint. Why bother? do a good level 4 the flat paint will do the rest. A true level 5 should cost at least double a level 4 because under the hardest condition and the brightest lights it must be perfect.
> If you want to do a level 5 you should work with your painter and get on the same page because a bad paint job can sink your level 5.
> Sorry for the rant but this is a pet peeve of mine.


What if they decide to go to a higher sheen later?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Golden view said:


> What if they decide to go to a higher sheen later?


Primer is the keystone! After 2 coats of a primer /sealer you can paint with whatever ya please .....2 coats of flat over new board is total BS/Hack work.


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

Golden view said:


> What if they decide to go to a higher sheen later?


Really can't play the what if game nobody wins. I mean what if the house burns down, what if they don't up the sheen. But I will try to answer.

If you do a good level 4 and charge them for a level 4 then you have done right by them and yourself. If you did a level 5 then you covered it with flat paint then you did a lot of work and charged a lot of money for something that was not needed. If you explained this to them and they wanted it anyway because someone told them it was better that's fine.

As for your question if they decide to up the sheen after your level 4 then you explain what is involved and the cost. I don't feel it would be right to charge for something not needed simply because someday you may decide you do need it.

These are entirely my opinions and opinions are like butt holes everybody has one and most of them stink. Not trying to start an argument but would like to hear what others think since H/O have heard about level 5 and want it just so they can tell their friends they have it it is becoming more a part of what we do. I think it is becoming a status thing. I would really like to see a couple threads about it, because almost any drywall forum you go on it seems like everyone has their own definition.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

You know what kills a good level 4............A homeowner with a can of primer and paint in one.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

ToolNut said:


> It is my understanding level 5 was designed for schools and hospitals. Places that are almost always painted with semi or gloss paint and had very harsh lighting. Under these conditions any small flaw would look gigantic. A bad level 4 with a skim coat is not a level 5, a almost perfect level 4 with a perfect skim is a level 5.
> I read all the time about doing a level 5 for a H/O then painting it with flat paint. Why bother? do a good level 4 the flat paint will do the rest. A true level 5 should cost at least double a level 4 because under the hardest condition and the brightest lights it must be perfect.
> If you want to do a level 5 you should work with your painter and get on the same page because a bad paint job can sink your level 5.
> Sorry for the rant but this is a pet peeve of mine.


Ever seen a commercial space with a level 5 finish? :whistling

I'll be honest, I've only ever seen one house that had a level 5 finish during construction and it's construction cost was well north of 10 mil...but they did a level 5 on the inside of every closet. When they were sanding you couldn't see your hand in front of your face.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> View attachment 103015
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Looks good, Im sure the cabinet guy will have no problems attaching his cabinets to that wall... Level 5 in closets???? You must be kidding


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Inner10 said:


> Ever seen a commercial space with a level 5 finish? :whistling


Yes? Everyday.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> I'll be honest, I've only ever seen one house that had a level 5 finish during construction and it's construction cost was well north of 10 mil...but they did a level 5 on the inside of every closet. When they were sanding you couldn't see your hand in front of your face.


I skim coat on existing walls during renos, but that isn't really a level 5. Any new walls have to be level 5 as well to not stick out, meaning any surface damage on the drywall, and it has to get skimmed. It isn't for flashing - I can avoid that, I just can't get dings to go away.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

slowsol said:


> Yes? Everyday.


Commercial work here is always notoriously bad because of the shiny paint...I don't even need a stud finder. 



hdavis said:


> I skim coat on existing walls during renos, but that isn't really a level 5. Any new walls have to be level 5 as well to not stick out, meaning any surface damage on the drywall, and it has to get skimmed. It isn't for flashing - I can avoid that, I just can't get dings to go away.


Skimming surface damage isn't what I think of when I think l5, I think skimming every damn square inch of wallboard in the place.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Level 5 is the quality of finish you get when done,,, not skimming. Skimming is skimming ( verb) Level 5 is noun or adjective


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

iDAHOchris said:


> Level 5 is the quality of finish you get when done,,, not skimming. Skimming is skimming ( verb) Level 5 is noun or adjective


Read the glossary on the first page. L5 = skim the whole sob.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> Read the glossary on the first page. L5 = skim the whole sob.


 not everybodies skim looks like a level 5:whistling, Level 5 is not a verb


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

However a finisher gets to a level 5 is totally up to them, no glossary is gonna help. I am showed the paperwork of finish levels several times a year . What bothers me is some people think that just skimming the whole surface will give you a level 5... WRONG. It starts with the framing, hanging prefill.... etc etc. The taping has got to be darn near perfect, seams, beads, angles, screws etc etc. Level 5 costs $$. Its not just skimming, its making sure" everything" is perfect


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> Read the glossary on the first page. L5 = skim the whole sob.


 Maybe you should re read it:thumbsup:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

iDAHOchris said:


> However a finisher gets to a level 5 is totally up to them, no glossary is gonna help. I am showed the paperwork of finish levels several times a year . What bothers me is some people think that just skimming the whole surface will give you a level 5... WRONG. It starts with the framing, hanging prefill.... etc etc. The taping has got to be darn near perfect, seams, beads, angles, screws etc etc. Level 5 costs $$. Its not just skimming, its making sure" everything" is perfect


So it's all that plus skimming...


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Ever seen a commercial space with a level 5 finish? :whistling


What is normal is the documents and bid requests asking for a Level 4, and then screaming and crying when the long hallways flash.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> Skimming surface damage isn't what I think of when I think l5, I think skimming every damn square inch of wallboard in the place.


Yes, skim everything, not just scuffs, dings, etc.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Here's the advice I was given a long time ago. You never get flat and perfect, but you can get the appearance of flat and perfect. That's the goal for most situations where people want level 5, and lighting / coating play a part.

Yes, I can actually get walls flat / plumb / square using compound to within pretty small tolerances (1/8 - 1/16" across the wall), but I've only done that a couple times for bathrooms, and it takes a lot of compound building everything out. You can use a straight 4' cedar siding board for screeding the first fill if you're in a hurry.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

I'm stupid, what exactly does _"when it flashes"_mean?


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

brunothedog said:


> I'm stupid, what exactly does _"when it flashes"_mean?











These are example of walls which will probably be Level 4. When a wall is finished to Level 4, no matter how else perfectly ( micrometer level flatness ) there will be a difference in how the paint is absorbed and the resulting sheen between the areas finished with mud and the plain paper areas. Level 5 covers the whole wall with mud, so there is no sheen difference at all.

Flashing is especially visible on large smooth-coat finished commercial walls where there is rather harsh fluorescent lighting and vertical sheets are the norm.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Tends to be really bad with EZ sand.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Anti-wingnut; Level 5 covers the whole wall with mud.[/QUOTE said:


> Why cover the whole wall? If the seams and butts are done why go over them again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOzxhRJXmvs


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## wallnatural (Oct 21, 2013)

flashing is not actually flashing if you can put your 14" or 12" knive on a seam and it rocks back and forth. Thats just plain ****ty work IMO no amount of skimming or level 5'n can fix humps only sanding in between coats and putting on a few or 3 coats on everything. Thats how I check my work when Im done I would rather see a slight hollowness enough to slide a piece of paper under your knive and the high spot the primer and 2 coats of paint will help you but if you hump out joints it will expose you.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

blacktop said:


> Why cover the whole wall? If the seams and butts are done why go over them again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOzxhRJXmvs


Huh?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Huh?


Just what I said Super. Why go over the entire lid and walls if the joints are sanded and done . I just roll @ wipe the field of the board . I use the l/w mud for this It leaves few scratches if any..about the only thing Iv'e found the light weight is good for.. Rolling @ wiping down an entire lid or wall with A A/P compound will Leave scratches like a mofo !And good luck sanding them out!!!


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Then isn't the whole wall covered by joint compound?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Then isn't the whole wall covered by joint compound?


Taping/ coating/skimming are a different beast opposed to a onion skin over the entire surface. Onion skins tend to leave scratches when using a dense compound.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

There is no substitute for monolithically coating the wall with topping, period.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

OK. I get it, this really is rocket science.

A lot of the time, to attain Level 5, after everything is taped and sanded to perfection, the walls are rolled with what the tapers refer to as a pea coat. It is a thin mud syrup applied with a thick nap roller.

Lord knows if this would meet with Dr Blacktop's approval


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

blacktop said:


> Taping/ coating/skimming are a different beast opposed to a onion skin over the entire surface. Onion skins tend to leave scratches when using a dense compound.


I'd like to see your pics...


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Anti-wingnut said:


> OK. I get it, this really is rocket science.
> 
> A lot of the time, to attain Level 5, after everything is taped and sanded to perfection, the walls are rolled with what the tapers refer to as a pea coat. It is a thin mud syrup applied with a thick nap roller.
> 
> Lord knows if this would meet with Dr Blacktop's approval


Dr. Blacktop :laughing: I'm not sure what the term level 5 means. 

I've always called the [email protected] on the field a shure coat . Anti we all live in different areas with different materials ..with different ways of making those pesky painters happy...I'm just sharing what I've found to work for ME! :thumbsup: I can.. and will.. change my ways at the drop of a hat for a better finish.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I'd like to see your pics...


 .....


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I hate ceilings, and especially ones like those:thumbsup:


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Level 5 here means skimming/rolling/spraying the entire surface after level 4 is achieved. 

And in most cases we do not waste time with small closets and weird unimportant areas.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> So it's all that plus skimming...


 For some, yes. But if you fully read the Level 5 definition you will see that the whole surface can be skimmed OR .... Another important part being left out is the primer/sealer that is used BEFORE paint


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

Skimming is definitely part of it. Where I am we can't get topping so I have been using the ultra light (puke green lid) to skim with, easy to pull and easy to sand. After Myron did that article in Fine Homebuilding on rolling thin compound USG came out with a few disclaimers that is was not a good idea and would not be a true L5.


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## gotmud (Dec 8, 2011)

blacktop said:


> .....


Very Nice!


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

blacktop said:


> .....


Those are nice but it would fail a drywall inspection. You need to use more screws.. :lol:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Those are nice but it would fail a drywall inspection. You need to use more screws.. :lol:


I didn't get that from those pictures.


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

Don't get him started on using Moore screws :laughing:! You'll really get him going.
And for the record I've yet to meet a building inspector yet that has a clue on how to properly fasten sheetrock to walls in a residential setting. Yes, they might be able to read the code book, but what about the actual manufacturers recommendations or plain old common sense?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Those are nice but it would fail a drywall inspection. You need to use more screws.. :lol:


There are no screws in the field of the wall sheets. I don't spot the ceiling field screws until I start on the skim coat after each one has been hand tightened a 1/4 turn.. No drywall inspections here ..If they ever start I can find a way around the rules. I know more about drywall than any inspector inspecting it.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

blacktop said:


> There are no screws in the field of the wall sheets. I don't spot the ceiling field screws until I start on the skim coat after each one has been hand tightened a 1/4 turn.. No drywall inspections here ..If they ever start I can find a way around the rules. I know more about drywall than any inspector inspecting it.


Because I am confused, could you elaborate on this. How does not screwing the fields of wall boards help? Also does spot mean coat? You skim the ceilings then quarter turn the screws by hand? I just don't get it. Perhaps I'm loosing something in translation..


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Because I am confused, could you elaborate on this. How does not screwing the fields of wall boards help? Also does spot mean coat? You skim the ceilings then quarter turn the screws by hand? I just don't get it. Perhaps I'm loosing something in translation..


Sorry Matt... I'm no Mark Twain! :whistling

We glue the board ..After the hang is complete I let the glue set for as long as possible before I start coating the field screws..The glue runs in a 1/4 '' bead recess to recess. Only behind the field of the board I will tape and block/coat in a home before coating any field screws I want the glue to set/cure/dry/draw up/ shrink etc before coating the field screws. The few field screws on the wall sheets I pull them out then fill . The field screws on ceilings I give a good 1/4 '' turn by hand before they get a first coat... My goal with this procedure is NO SCREW POPS LATER ON! 

I had a H/O tell me years ago ..''We can put a man in space but can't invent a better product than drywall ?'' My response was...Yeah.. I hear ya ,,,And we are still building houses out of TREES!!!


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

blacktop said:


> Sorry Matt... I'm no Mark Twain! :whistling
> 
> We glue the board ..After the hang is complete I let the glue set for as long as possible before I start coating the field screws..The glue runs in a 1/4 '' bead recess to recess. Only behind the field of the board I will tape and block/coat in a home before coating any field screws I want the glue to set/cure/dry/draw up/ shrink etc before coating the field screws. The few field screws on the wall sheets I pull them out then fill . The field screws on ceilings I give a good 1/4 '' turn by hand before they get a first coat... My goal with this procedure is NO SCREW POPS LATER ON!
> 
> I had a H/O tell me years ago ..''We can put a man in space but can't invent a better product than drywall ?'' My response was...Yeah.. I hear ya ,,,And we are still building houses out of TREES!!!


While I respect your commitment to your trade my first thought is you are one delusional soul if you think this process has any place in conventional construction. Nobody wants the drywaller hanging around farting the place up for as long as possible.. You are a sick dude.. I like that..


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

Told ya.........:thumbup:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Is drywall talk down again?


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

Hey, 'Dr Blacktop' I think its time for the dumb drywallers to tuck tail and run:no:

Lol:wheelchair: :scooter:


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Is drywall talk down again?


Nope, but its a dangerous place to be, the sheep wars are raging again


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

mnld said:


> Nope, but its a dangerous place to be, the sheep wars are raging again


:laughing:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> While I respect your commitment to your trade my first thought is you are one delusional soul if you think this process has any place in conventional construction. Nobody wants the drywaller hanging around farting the place up for as long as possible.. You are a sick dude.. I like that..


I'm faster than you think.....If call back after call back after call back is your thing ?? Call my competition ! :whistling:laughing:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

mnld said:


> Hey, 'Dr Blacktop' I think its time for the dumb drywallers to tuck tail and run:no:
> 
> Lol:wheelchair: :scooter:


:blink: But I'm not done with my lessons !!!!! :laughing:


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## rremodeling (Feb 21, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Depends where you are I'm sure. I can see the board joints on every home around here from $100k-$1.3m. The only time I don't see them is when texture is done and I think its a common reason around here for texture. Most people won't spot the joints unless a powerful light is held down the wall but most contractors will spot it.
> 
> Here's one done by a so called pro drywall company in this area. Every joint looked like this. HO couldn't tell until I put my light down the wall. But most HO don't know any better. If you want a flat finish here you have to ask for a level 5. Some drywall guys I have spoken to didnt even know what the level system was lol
> 
> ...


That's absolutely brutal. I cant believe guys even try to get away with work like that


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## pibe (Jan 21, 2013)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Those are nice but it would fail a drywall inspection. You need to use more screws.. :lol:


glue


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

blacktop said:


> :blink: But I'm not done with my lessons !!!!! :laughing:


Good. :clap: I'm glad I just learned not to use glue and then go mudding away an hour later because the glue sucks the rock in as it dries. I also didn't realize you could get by with so few screws using glue though I'm sure that technique is more for a seasoned professional. :thumbup:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

mnld said:


> Nope, but its a dangerous place to be, the sheep wars are raging again


Kiwi infestation that has to be dealt with?:laughing:


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

Inner10 said:


> Kiwi infestation that has to be dealt with?:laughing:


Eh.....!!!!!!:laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

More lessons!


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## wallnatural (Oct 21, 2013)

Blacktop is right on the money here... the glue is holding the board to the studs not the screws, they only do screw inspections on commercial work when using steel studs. That is a priceless gem he threw out there for us. I used to pull out the ceiling screws a day or two after the ceilings were hung because I got sick of repairing screw pops on my 1yr warranty work. Another trick is if you have a textured ceiling crows feet, etc. use topping mud for your texture mud because it drys super white like ceiling paint dont let the painter paint the texture once they paint it it is unbearable to repair if there is any light cracks, screw pops, etc.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I get it Im just not sure who has all these screw pop issues. In all the years I have been screwing sheetrock to studs with and without glue I have only had one screw pop call back ever and it was two pops in 300 sheets. I understand the theory but extreme over kill kills sales when we are already competing in a hack saturated market.. I just don't get pulling screws out of a sheet of drywall in an attempt to increase quality. Maybe if I hung drywall every day all day it would make more sense too me.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> In all the years I have been screwing sheetrock to studs


Renos? or New construction?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Renos


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Renos


Thank you... Walk into a home that's just been ''dried in'' and drive a nail or screw into a stud or joist.. Easy task ..no? They both go in smooth and easy. go back 1 or 2 years later and try to drive a screw or nail through that same stud or joist ...It's harder than a woodpeckers head ain't it???


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

New construction around here is full of nail pops.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I get it Im just not sure who has all these screw pop issues. In all the years I have been screwing sheetrock to studs with and without glue I have only had one screw pop call back ever and it was two pops in 300 sheets. I understand the theory but extreme over kill kills sales when we are already competing in a hack saturated market.. I just don't get pulling screws out of a sheet of drywall in an attempt to increase quality. Maybe if I hung drywall every day all day it would make more sense too me.


Different strokes for different folks.


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

I just wanted to address the Primer part of this question, Primer is a Sealer it ain't gonna hide seams and butt joint that have not been sanded right. As for Flashing it is caused when the primer finish is sucked into the mud, this will cause you to see areas flashing, a lot times just putting another coat of primer will stop it, cause some painters will dry roll whichyour not getting enough primer on walls and ceilings. Also some Painters think they can get away with using Paint as a primer:no:
That ain't gonna help Primer is thin so it is drawn into the sheetrock and mudded joints. Paint is thicker and it lays on top. I am repairing some holes in a house built about 5 years ago and the Painters didn't use primer, they just painted new sheetrock. Well were we removed backslash the paint just chips of the walls cause no primer was used so paint just played on top and didn't get that good Bond cause no primer was used.
Hope that helps with the flashing problems you guys are dealing with.
Oh and if your drywall has humps for joints and seams find a new crew cause they SUCK:laughing:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Frankawitz said:


> I just wanted to address the Primer part of this question, Primer is a Sealer it ain't gonna hide seams and butt joint that have not been sanded right. As for Flashing it is caused when the primer finish is sucked into the mud, this will cause you to see areas flashing, a lot times just putting another coat of primer will stop it, cause some painters will dry roll whichyour not getting enough primer on walls and ceilings. Also some Painters think they can get away with using Paint as a primer:no:
> That ain't gonna help Primer is thin so it is drawn into the sheetrock and mudded joints. Paint is thicker and it lays on top. I am repairing some holes in a house built about 5 years ago and the Painters didn't use primer, they just painted new sheetrock. Well were we removed backslash the paint just chips of the walls cause no primer was used so paint just played on top and didn't get that good Bond cause no primer was used.
> Hope that helps with the flashing problems you guys are dealing with.
> Oh and if your drywall has humps for joints and seams find a new crew cause they SUCK:laughing:


The primers I have used have been a lot thicker than the paint from the same company. not sure that's a valid reason for paint not sticking. I hate thick primers though.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Here are a few pics of some level five finishes that I have done. Extreme natural light areas done without a skim:thumbsup:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

iDAHOchris said:


> Here are a few pics of some level five finishes that I have done. Extreme natural light areas done without a skim:thumbsup:


I'm glad to see the roller marks in the finish. I have improved my skill with painting 10 fold but find it impossible to leave a perfect finish on a wall with paint when lights beaming down it like that. Most of my customers love semi gloss on walls so it can me a nightmare at times.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> I'm glad to see the roller marks in the finish. I have improved my skill with painting 10 fold but find it impossible to leave a perfect finish on a wall with paint when lights beaming down it like that. Most of my customers love semi gloss on walls so it can me a nightmare at times.


If you find a secret, let me know. I taper my roller covers, and will cross roll in some situations, and I work fast


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## procrpntr (Nov 17, 2013)

Forgive my ignorance here but wouldn't first coat prevent flashing?


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

procrpntr said:


> Forgive my ignorance here but wouldn't first coat prevent flashing?


I assume you're talking about Sheetrock brand First coat.

And yes it will prevent flashing IF it is properly applied over a perfect tape job over properly hung drywall of excellent quality fastened to straight, well cured lumber that has been framed up to exacting tolerances. Oh, and the temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure better all be in line as well!

And all that has to be done at a price that can complete with illegal labor


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## endo_alley (Apr 9, 2013)

The "finish level matrix" always cracks me up. They are explaining the steps involved. But it is the level of finish that you are after. Not the technique. In level five all joints should be flat everywhere when a straight edge is set over them, as well as possible. Such as a when using 4 foot feather edge or darby or level to check them. All tape well adhered to a solid substrate. Bands and but joints dead flat. All outside corners must be level to the plane of the wall as well as possible. All inside angles straight square and clean. All outside angles straight. (provided straight is the detail). No edges of finish compound anywhere. No furred paper. No goobers or sunken screws. No or very little dust on walls. All verified by painstakingly shining a harsh light at a sharp angle to all ceilings and walls. The means by which you do this is of secondary importance as long as the proper finish is generated. I worked for a company that demanded we use hawk and trowel. I was trying to convince them that the ames tools could get much of the work done faster. The foreman said I could use a garden rake provided the finish was smooth and flat. Nevertheless, some methods will get you there faster than others.


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