# Angle iron size



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I have some folks that have a 16' garage door opening and the lintel above is not up to the job. It's bowing by maybe 1" so all the joints are cracked and they want it repaired. Anytime I've done a new construction double car garage the steel is already mounted by the framers and i'm pretty sure it's an H beam with a brickledge welded to it. If I needed to do that it would be a huge headache and I won't be doing it (too busy to really do it any way but i told them I'd give them a price)

My code book only shows up to a 10' span, which is 3/8" x 3.5"x5.5". Anyone have any span charts that go passed 10'. I'm guessing that a 1/2"x 3.5x 7.5" would do it (theres a good steel fab shop around that can get in lots of different sized angle) but I don't really know. There are 15 courses above the lintel


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Who is the fella here who does flying additions and whatnot with no angle irons at all!

Crazy, 

but I dont know how big to make it.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Oh, you mean Brunothedog and the rebar in the back of the brick??? Not for this job. Like i say, don't really want to do it, but I told them i'd give them a price and they are family of a friend


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

We use 3" x 5" x 3/8" around here then use 1/2" x 3.5" lag bolts spaced about every two feet to attach to the header. The bolts prevent sagging.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Thanks, I've often thought about attaching the angle to the framing but never done it.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

A method we use sometimes, 2 2"X12" wood headers with a flitch plate sandwiched between them. The flitch plate is a 1/8" x 10" steel plate. We then stitch bolt bolt a 3.5" x 5.5" 1/4" angle to the header. Works every time with no problems.


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

We have to put spacers behind the angle iron sometimes to get it close to the face of the wall, the 3" doesn't leave much of a ledge. We use 4" x 4" x 3/8" if it is stone over the door.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> Thanks, I've often thought about attaching the angle to the framing but never done it.


Depending on which way that roof load is displaced or other load factors that "framing" needs to include a header...e.g. LVL, built up or otherwise for you to bolt an angle to it. 

I pretty sure you know this...just don't bolt into a non-load bearing gable wall or such.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

For 12'-16' span, angle iron must be minimum 3" x 5" x 5/16" with 8-12" overhang on each side (that overhang would be best practice) for load bearing wall (code requires 4" minimum overhang on each side)... and that is for residential construction.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

greg24k said:


> For 12'-16' span, angle iron must be minimum 3" x 5" x 5/16" with 8-12" overhang on each side (that overhang would be best practice) for load bearing wall (code requires 4" minimum overhang on each side)... and that is for residential construction.


My code book stops at 10' for a 3.5x5.5x3/8" And code was changed in '99 here to 6' bearing either side, that's non load bearing, veneer only. Load bearing needs to be engineered


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

superseal said:


> Depending on which way that roof load is displaced or other load factors that "framing" needs to include a header...e.g. LVL, built up or otherwise for you to bolt an angle to it.
> 
> I pretty sure you know this...just don't bolt into a non-load bearing gable wall or such.


Yeah that's the problem. The garage is a gable end. While obviously there is a header across the garage door, I can`t imagine it`s too much. House is too old for an LVL. At best 3- 2x12`s with some ply added, and that is doubtful.

I might need to call an engineer friend


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

How much masonry is above the lintel?


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Can you lay your hands on one of these or similar.
http://www.catnic.com/lintels/CN23C.aspx


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> Can you lay your hands on one of these or similar.
> http://www.catnic.com/lintels/CN23C.aspx


No, and can't even guess at what it is???


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tscarborough said:


> How much masonry is above the lintel?


15 courses approx 3.5'


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> No, and can't even guess at what it is???


It's a heavy duty lintel for brickwork with a timber frame inner skin, up to 4.8 metres.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

6x4x5/16" is what would be used here.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

3.5x6 x 5/16, that would be easy enough to come by, seems undersized to me though


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## wazez (Oct 25, 2008)

Tscarborough said:


> 6x4x5/16" is what would be used here.


Thats preety much like we would do.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

No one has any span charts? I've looked online and they either stop at 10' or 12'. I'm pretty certain that the one that is present is a 3.5x 5.5 x 5/16 (at a glance the steel looks like it's "the big steel")and it is not working. The house is about 40 years old and the angle is deflecting by at least 1"


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The charts you are looking at are for loose angles, that is why they stop at 10 or 12 feet. Spanning a 16' opening is not a loose angle, it has to be bolted to the framing, and as such there are entirely too many variables for a simple chart.

With 3' of masonry to support and assuming a sufficient framing member, then then a 3x3x3/16 bolted 24" OC could be sufficient. It depends upon the framing, not the angle.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Here are some images of a flitch plate / flitch beam. An 1/8" X10" steel plate sandwiched vertically between wood members is very strong / rigid.


https://www.google.com/search?q=fli...APUkIGYCw&sqi=2&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=617


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tscarborough said:


> The charts you are looking at are for loose angles, that is why they stop at 10 or 12 feet. Spanning a 16' opening is not a loose angle, it has to be bolted to the framing, and as such there are entirely too many variables for a simple chart.
> 
> With 3' of masonry to support and assuming a sufficient framing member, then then a 3x3x3/16 bolted 24" OC could be sufficient. It depends upon the framing, not the angle.


Yes I've been assuming loose steel lintel. You're saying the 3.5x5.5 but bolted to the framing. No idea if the framing is up to it. They have another quote, maybe I'll let the other guys do it. I have zero desire to get into adding filtch plates or adding to headers etc...

Thanks everyone


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Ok, so I got the job, the couple told me what the other quote was and it was nuts, I'll make excellent money charging 1/2 of the other quote. I'm going to get a 3.5x7x 3/8 or whatever is closest and bolt into the framing. I put in a caveat for insufficient framing.

Best part is I can do it at my covenience. Since it's an easy setup I'll wait until really cold weather. thanks for the help guys


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Maybe the other guy wasn't as confident as you are about the header supporting the load. 

Good luck either way.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Even if you have to take out the header and make one with a steel plate, win win for a half a day work and a couple hundred for the material.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

slowsol said:


> Maybe the other guy wasn't as confident as you are about the header supporting the load.
> 
> Good luck either way.


That's why I put in the caveat about the framing being adequate. Personally I doubt that it will be, but we'll see.

I know there's not supposed to be any pricing talk but.... the other guy(doing foundation work) quoted $12,000 to remove the approx 350 brick, the lintel a couple light fixtures and replace with new (except light fixtures). i figure I'll have about $1000 in materials including heat and I'll do it easy in 8 days or less myself, 5 if i can find a labourer by then, more likely a lot less, my price was a little less than 1/2 the other guys

I think the foundation guy got a quote and just doubled it. that and he probably saw an older couple who were nervous about the brick falling on their car and got crazy greedy


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Could do it out of stone in 8 days no?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

JBM said:


> Could do it out of stone in 8 days no?


Prolly, but I lay stone almost as fast as I lay brick...there's 16' of soldiers as well as quoins to rebuild. Remember I didn't really want to do this job so I bid it like I was dragging my ass.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Is the header drooping also?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Couldn't tell you. The garage door if framed by 2x6's and the steel rests on the 2x6 along with some decorative trim. That is all bowing, but...the garage is drywalled and the drywall inside isn't cracked at all. I would think that the drywall is attached to the header.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)




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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Yeah I'll get someone to spec whatever is needed if it comes to it. I figure if there is at least 2 2x12 with some plywood and it hasn't deflected at all i'll probably live with it. The steel will still do 75% or more of the job, what is it carrying 150lbs per ft or so, and really only 1/2 that, a 3.5x7x 3/8 is a pretty decent piece of metal


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Actually i guess 3 ' in either side the steel will carry all that weight


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

Make sure and post pics of you doing military presses with that hunk of steel before you put it on the scaffold.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Kniggit said:


> Make sure and post pics of you doing military presses with that hunk of steel before you put it on the scaffold.


Yeah it's going to be heavy. We just put in an 8' H beam at the job I'm on now, 8' x 8" wide x 6.5" high, I'm guessing at 5/16" Took 3 of us to lift it into place basically one side at a time, plus there was only 2" extra space on each side of the pocket. that sucked, but it went smoother than I would have thought. Helps when the guys you have helping are of the same mind how to go about it


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> Yeah it's going to be heavy. We just put in an 8' H beam at the job I'm on now, 8' x 8" wide x 6.5" high, I'm guessing at 5/16" Took 3 of us to lift it into place basically one side at a time, plus there was only 2" extra space on each side of the pocket. that sucked, but it went smoother than I would have thought. Helps when the guys you have helping are of the same mind how to go about it


Get a hand-crank fork lift like the HVAC guys use, 2 guys installed 2 steel car lifts without any power equipment, just a crank lift.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

you are way over with the 7" high. 3/8 4 X 4 is plenty with lags. save the folks some money and your back. 
This is not rocket science, rust probably caused the initial damage. The framing from 40 years ago is better than today by far.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I guess i'm just wary of using lags since I've never done it or even seen it done around here. except for wall ties the masonry is completely independent of the framing everywhere, but all of a sudden there will be a lot of weight added to the framing which was originally designed only to take the wall load. 

I won't be saving anyone except myself going with the smaller angle, I've already given them a price and they've accepted. The minimum i would go would be the typical 3.5x5.5x5/16, which is what is already there, at that point i would be willing to put some lags in every 2' if the framing looked up to it, since I think that steel will be doing most of the work. Last year a contractor was supplying all the materials and gave me a 3.5x3.5 for an 8' opening that had less than 1' of material above it. I knew it was undersized and said so but thye GC convinced me to use it since there was so little material above. By the time I got to the soffit the angle had sagged and was touching the brick mould. I tore it out and put the proper size in the next day, no problems.

I've installed 10'x 3.5x5.5 lots of times myself, so I'm sure I can get the bigger one in with no problems with a hand from a friend for an hour

40 years ago they were using the same 2x12's we're using today. I think glulams and LVLs are more structurally stable by far than lumber.

You may think it's overkill but I've seen lots of undersized angles that are dropping, I'm charging these folks quite a bit of money, I don't need to skimp.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

When doing the opening for the 16' garage we braced the precast 17'4" lintel. They weewe usually pumped petty quickyl after, but the bracing could have been removed after it set for a cuople days without an issue. 

Long story short brace your steel till it sets up.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

yeah I put a leg in the middle of any steel that's over 8' and has more than a couple feet on top.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The trap most fall into is that "there is only X amount of masonry above it". If it doesn't naturally arch it carries the full weight of what is sitting upon it. A 12' angle on a 20' gable end can be the same size or smaller than a 12' angle with 2' or 3' of masonry above it.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I guess I should update this. Turned out the original steel was 3.5x3.5x5/16" I put in a 4x 6.6x3/8" 

The wood header has actually sagged quite a bit. As much as the angle iron, there was a very slight crack in the drywall that I hadn't seen when I was doing my initial look around, it was up above the plywood that held bracket for the garage door chain so it wasn't visible until i got on a ladder. The header is a piece or rough cut 4"x12".

The owners decided not to replace the header..their call, but I didn't attach any brick ties to it in case someone wanted to replace it down the road.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Did you consider a segmental relief arch?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Good idea but no didn't. I doubt they would have gone for it. The angle is pretty beefy, I'm confident it will last. Also the old angle only had 4" of bearing either side, it now has a bit over 10" either side. That should help considerably


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

BIA has as alternate method for up to 18' opening residential garage door lintels, using a lighter angle iron, and several courses of 9gauge durawall in the bed joints directly above and a foot or two up another group of durawall
A few dead legs are required for a week or so.

The paranoid can poke in some cut up durawall scraps vertically through the horizontal truss wire for added shear strength.

the durawall extending at least 8" past the jambs and properly lapped.

On a Double door, the 14-16 pieces of wire wouldn't be much cheaper than a big lintel, But, used with medium sized steel they'll reduce the sag alot


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Back in the 70's and earlier some timber windows and doors had the brickwork running over the top with no lintels, just 3 courses of this in the bed joints. The inside block or brick had a concrete lintel.








Worked OK until the windows were replaced with plastic ones, and then the brickwork dropped a bit causing problems with jamming doors etc.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Same theory/ method, the steel wire provides the tensile strength for a laid in place brick lintel. No superimposed loads allowed though.

If they had laid the "brick Top" in a bed joint spread on the false work under the first course over the windows, no sagging brick on the window repairs, but more finishing for the masons.

One story construction only? i.e under soffits /no flashing?

For a short period, pre 1973 oil crisis, there were S(ociety) C(eramic) R(esearch) clay units 6" wide, 2.33"&(4") tall by 12-16" with groutable(just bearly) cores for vertical rebar wire scores for horizontal rebar. 6 to 10 story apartments by rule of thumb almost. Cavity insulated walls killed it.

THere is a six story apt. in town that still looks good 40 years later. A ten story one in College town that is a crack fest appearence wise, no CJs, oops.
"


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> One story construction only? i.e under soffits /no flashing?
> "


One, two or more storeys. Flashing over top of concrete lintels and down and on top of frame under brickwork. Nowadays use steel lintels like these.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Seen the sheet metal bent lintel, Trade named after the inventor builder? can't recall it... save a couple of pounds money and weight every window in steel.

I'm suprised the LEED/Eco manure hasn't encouraged their use to cut heat flow over openings.

In Florida there is a galvanised 16 gauge scored surface 8" square pre made lintel single use form, the tin is the tensile element for up to ~8' openings then you start adding rebars in the form cavity. Less planning than precast,no hoists needed and salt tested, 

Having missed out on the Luftwaffe bombing and fires, building codes here aren't to worried about firestorms in the suburbs, even our duplexs and town homes ~Row houses almost have mostly wood structures with the masonry just as expensive siding. :sad: 1" of dry wall as the "firewall".


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

http://books.google.com/books?id=_k...#v=onepage&q=reinforced brick lintels&f=false


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Seen the sheet metal bent lintel, Trade named after the inventor builder? can't recall it... save a couple of pounds money and weight every window in steel.
> 
> I'm suprised the LEED/Eco manure hasn't encouraged their use to cut heat flow over openings.
> 
> In Florida there is a galvanised 16 gauge scored surface 8" square pre made lintel single use form, the tin is the tensile element for up to ~8' openings then you start adding rebars in the form cavity. Less planning than precast,no hoists needed and salt tested,


They get left in place. Not sure how long the stucco will stick to it was the main concern, but setting them was like setting a feather pillow. My guys eyes would brighten right up when the 17'4" was on the job. Some days those precast ones are extra heavy, esp. when your down to 8 guys that day.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Seen the sheet metal bent lintel, Trade named after the inventor builder? can't recall it... save a couple of pounds money and weight every window in steel.
> 
> .


Close, named after his kids.
http://www.catnic.com/catnic_history.aspx


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Fjn, not the same thing, that an older multi-wythe method for brick soffits, I laid them on churches for the pre iron lintel look. They are a pita to align. We end up pre "casting" laying the soffits on two shiskabob rebars, in a jig, let cure a day or two then hang the nearly flat assemblely from the piers.

I haven't been able to find the "tech" notes on the single wythe garage door durawall technique, I'm thinking it was published in Masonry Construction about 10-16 years ago about the same they changed the residential code to allow floating "chimney" boxes on doubled up wood roof trusses.

I 'd change the 8" bearing of the wire to at least 12" or hook the ends 2" into a head joint and switch to 3/16" side wire Durawall if it were availiable on the bottom course for 18' openings after rereading the old school methods. Start CJs at the ends of wire above the head of the door. Again the dead legs till cure are critical, getting the other subs/general to leave them undistrubed as they block easy delivery into the "shop"/garage space...


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