# Why are my roofing nails coming out?



## Shingle Monkey (Feb 20, 2006)

PlainPainter said:


> I so don't have any of these problems when I hand nail a roof. Call me old fashioned - but the price of not having call backs is worth the extra effort of hand nailing. I suppose there are roofers who have a 'feel' with nail guns, and can tell if the nail really went into something. Sometimes when I hand hammer - the nail isn't going into nothing, and it nails down into something but it will feel 'weak' so I will put another nail above it or something until I feel it has 'grabbed'. I guess on new construction with great new roof decking/sheathing - you can go to town with nail guns. But on older homes and ones especially with the old planks and 1" gaps between planks - hand nailing will resolve these issues. I did a roof on an old tenement structure - a 4 family building for millworkers a.k.a 1860'ish. We went over one layer of roofing, landlord didn't want to pay for a rip. We hand hammered with 1-3/4" next door the next identical structure, but different owner, had another roofing company go over one layer as well - but with nail guns, and now in the past few months with all the wind in the northeast - I would say about 25% of the newer roof has blown right off!



Hey Mr. Painter coil nails hold better than hand nails, thats a fact. I love nothing more than to tear off a roof that was handnailed into OSB...all I can see is the dollar signs in saved labor.

If the shingles are blowing off its because of 1 of 2 things, poor quality material or nails were not installed in correct area of shingles.

Now Im going over to the painting forum and offer my expert advise.:laughing: 




I dont know why its so hard for some of you guys to understand, if the installer(roofer) doesnt care what quality of work he is doing, it doesnt matter if he has a hatchet or a nail gun in his hand.

I know that I have torn off 3 nailed roofs before because the handnailer didnt want to lift the tab to nail under.


Im not trying to bust your balls but lately the "internet Pros" are starting to get on my nerves. If people would just post on what they know about, the quailty of info would increase 10fold.


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## PlainPainter (Dec 29, 2004)

Yes I may be a painter - but I have done a few roofs as well. And my main guy is a roofer for 30 years. And I go by what he says and my observations. As far as I know - unless the shingles are nailed 'high' then what has the roofer done wrong? This last roof I ripped off - is an example of a hand nailed roof - and he nailed 'high' as well. Basically each roofing shingle is only being held down by 4 nails instead of properly overlapping the nails so each roofing shingle has 8 nails going through it. And that being the case - blow off was not a problem. But I see my competition with their nail guns making sure each shingle is being nailed down in the appropriate place - and still I see blow-off. I guess this is just anecdotal evidence - and the fact I am not up on the roof while these guys are nailing - doesn't enlighten me to the whole story. But if what you say is true - about coil nails being better than hand hammered - then I have no clue what these teams are doing wrong. I assumed you couldn't get nails with a big enough head through the gun - so there was less holding power. And still think for older houses, you know when a nail went in - but didn't quite grab as well as you would like if - you can feel this when doing by hand.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

You can and I can definitley feel a missed nail with a gun. People just care less these days. Paint guy mentioned 1" gaps in between boards, whats everyones take on this. 
For example: Roof deck 1x6 T& G Shrunk down to 5" and your exposure for asphalt shingles is 5" . Every 4 feet or so your Ideal nailing area has no wood, so you nail high, then higher and then even high till your back to the ideal area. I havent had any issue through the years but this process violates warranty for blow-off potential. Factor in the "crispy shingles in cold weather and nail guns" you have to wonder how they will last 30years.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Nails can get properly or improperly installed by hand nailing by stretching too far or just carelessness or as stated by shingle monkey, by not lifting the tab. That would reference to installing the shingle by the racking method, which most manufacturers advise against due to the 3 ft veretical pattern straight up and also for the very reason stated, sometimes they do not put in the extra nail under the tab they have to lift.

A gunner can also be just as careless. My crew usually uses nail guns, but all are required to hand nail on occasion just to keep it in training due to some customers only want hand nailing. 

IHO, I do believe that many guys feel they are experienced just because they can nail fast with a gun. Many times I see quality deteriorate as a result of speed if not properly supervised. 

Ed


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## PlainPainter (Dec 29, 2004)

Tom - this may be why I am seeing more and more roofers re-sheath over old, but still in great condition, tonge and groove boards. My attitude was that it was unecessary and possibly you could lose the bid to another contractor who will tell the homeowner that it isn't necessary. I do think those kind of roofs breathed better though if you aren't using ridge vent and what not.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Resheath over existing Tongue and groove. I ve done it with 3/8" cdx only a couple of times though. It is cheaper than pulling off and replacing 3/4 t&g with 5/8'ply. I personally think a code should be adopted in the future to limit the number of roof replacements for an existing home with out deck replacement. I say this because these tongue and groove boards are often not nearly as strong as on the 4th or 5th roof as it was on the second. IT WOULD even the table for job bidding and address many issues like: positive nailing, ventilation needs, and re support collapsing eaves on dutch colonials. You could then sell baffles in rafter bays to homes over insulated with-out ventilation and so on.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*Code*

It is a national code to definitely not have more than 3 roofs total. It is the Inspectors call as to whether they consider the first layer of cedar shingles on top of either ship sheathing or plank boards to qualify as decking or as a roof layer. 

Most communities only allow 2 layers maximum. Read your local code book, and if they do not have one for your municipality, (I doubt that), then get the info from the county you are working in. Then use that info as part of your bidding strategy. You may be the only one who has read the code and know what the ordinance states. Make a copy of it and provide it with your proposal.

Ed


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Ed, Our area is 2 shingle layers as well. We used to pull off asphalt on the cedar roof decks and reinstall horse feathers and 30 lb paper before reinstalling a new layer. I dont thinks thats legal anymore period but my point was not about layers. The code allows layers due the wieght loads it puts on the rafters. Im talking about how many times a piece of deck lumber can be nailed into before it is deemed usless. 
Just curious here the original post mentioned x-mas lights. I put a clause in my contracts that says any tampering with the finished product like holiday decorations or traffic from other contractors such as gutter cleaning, satellite dishes, masons and cable service men will voilate the terms of warranty. Does any of the other roofers use this type language to protect themselves?


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