# "I don't use copper"



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

One of the local supply houses that I frequent does both h.v.a.c. and plumbing. They are good guys, and in passing, I got acquainted with one of the plumbers who, like many of us is a 1-2 man shop. Anyhow, I wanted to make arrangements to plumb in a "deck drain" for the hvac condensate. He was going to meet me at the site, and I asked him if he had a copper street-90 in his van, as it would have been handy. He commented that he barely uses copper anymore, and didn't have any in his ride.

Is it just me, or is that a reason for some concern? It just seems odd that a plumber wouldn't have at least some copper in his ride.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

He's a young guy, right? 

That would mean he's not married to older practices like many of us, and in theory that's okay. But in real life, it's gonna be a long time before we don't need copper.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Actually, not that young. I would say mid 30's. I dunno. I understand how pex is nice and all, but still. I guess this kind of thing is inevitable with the advent of shark-bite, and plastic crimping.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I call mid-30's young. :laughing:

Doubt I'll ever totally desert copper; been using it for way too long. But I can see how some might consider it a bit passe. I mean, you have to know how to solder and stuff. :whistling:


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

As foolish as it sound even i carry some copper plumbing pieces with me. I do not do plumbing normally for customers but i do for myself and i opt to keep my small tool box of plumbing tools/supplies in my trailer so i at least know where it is. Once on a job i was able to help out a plumber friend who had ran out of fittings and did not want to unhook his trailer to drive 20 minutes to Town for more fittings. He never gave it a thought to ask me, i offered when i saw him getting angry when he realized he was out and tearing his trailer apart looking for a stray fitting.


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## TLHWindows (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm in my mid 30's and I used to work for a large HVAC/Pluming company when I was younger. I learned to solder copper for both sides of work. 

I don't do that work anymore, but I prefer copper, even if it is "old School". Just something about pipe that is straight and doesn't "dance" when the water is turned on and off.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

woodchuck2 said:


> He never gave it a thought to ask me, i offered when i saw him getting angry when he realized he was out and tearing his trailer apart looking for a stray fitting.


Been the done that  That's why is struck me as odd, that he mentioned that he doesn't do copper. I am sure he does when the situation arises, but, as a rule?


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm not plumber... and so just do very little plumbing.

Been helping my son in Cali add on 1800 ft on to his home...go out there for 3-4 months. 

So I was gone when he roughed his plumbing.

Got back out there.... AND HE had to teach me PEX....(and I had to teach him copper and sweating.)

The world's a changing


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

He must not do much repair because 99% of the current homes in existence are still copper or galvanized. I stock every fitting in every material in every size, most repair plumbers do. 

Although PEX and CPVC are gaining in popularity millions of existing homes have the "old school" water pipes.

Mike


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

My plumber want to use PEX for all new stuff. I still dont trust it and I have to believe the crimped fittings create flow restrictions.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Tom M said:


> My plumber want to use PEX for all new stuff. I still dont trust it and I have to believe the crimped fittings create flow restrictions.


PEX is sized based on a chart and formula, as is all chosen material for water distribution.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Tom M said:


> My plumber want to use PEX for all new stuff. I still dont trust it and I have to believe the crimped fittings create flow restrictions.


I was at that point for awhile. But consider this, all faucets and shower heads are designed for a certain gpm. It would be crazy for the PEX manufacturers to create a fitting that wouldn't allow for that rating. Embrace PEX because it's here to stay!


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

overanalyze said:


> I was at that point for awhile. But consider this, all faucets and shower heads are designed for a certain gpm. It would be crazy for the PEX manufacturers to create a fitting that wouldn't allow for that rating. Embrace PEX because it's here to stay!


Actually, any sized fitting will work, the manufactures don't worry about it. Tubing and fittings produce friction loss, and as long as the friction loss is mathematically calculated size is irrelevant. Manufacturers supply the friction loss to whatever product they make, that's why fittings CAN be small.

Also, with modern low flow fixtures the current water distribution requirements are changing. Manufacturers are producing modern faucets that don't require the "pressure" they once did on such models as the vintage Kohler Niedecken shower valve for example. In order for the old Niedecken shower head to function it required serious volume and pressure. That is no longer the case.

Keep in mind, most code books..... and the charts, were designed back when fixtures had extreme requirements. The code books have NOT caught up with current manufacturers.....but they will in the next few years. That is all changing.

Take a look at the new eco-friendly kitchen faucets (they suck), the water dribbles out. Now imagine putting that faucet on a house built in the 60's????? Suddenly, the water piping is too large.....or at least not required.

So basically, the idea that a PEX fitting having a diameter that's too small is really a bunk theory. It's irrelevant.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> Take a look at the new eco-friendly kitchen faucets (they suck), the water dribbles out. Now imagine putting that faucet on a house built in the 60's????? Suddenly, the water piping is too large.....or at least not required.


Just finished a bathroom remodel for a civil engineer (from a long line of such) whose grandpa was ahead of his time. When we fired up the new lines, the hot water dribbled compared to the cold.

Turns out that when grandpa switched from coal-heated hot water to electric, he installed several lengths of 3/8" pipe in the HW line to make sure that precious resource didn't get squandered. :laughing:


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

flashheatingand said:


> One of the local supply houses that I frequent does both h.v.a.c. and plumbing. They are good guys, and in passing, I got acquainted with one of the plumbers who, like many of us is a 1-2 man shop. Anyhow, I wanted to make arrangements to plumb in a "deck drain" for the hvac condensate. He was going to meet me at the site, and I asked him if he had a copper street-90 in his van, as it would have been handy. He commented that he barely uses copper anymore, and didn't have any in his ride.
> 
> Is it just me, or is that a reason for some concern? It just seems odd that a plumber wouldn't have at least some copper in his ride.


He'd be lost here, PEX is not code approved for potable water where I live.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> Just finished a bathroom remodel for a civil engineer (from a long line of such) whose grandpa was ahead of his time. When we fired up the new lines, the hot water dribbled compared to the cold.
> 
> Turns out that when grandpa switched from coal-heated hot water to electric, he installed several lengths of 3/8" pipe in the HW line to make sure that precious resource didn't get squandered. :laughing:


Lol


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Oconomowoc said:


> Actually, any sized fitting will work, the manufactures don't worry about it. Tubing and fittings produce friction loss, and as long as the friction loss is mathematically calculated size is irrelevant. Manufacturers supply the friction loss to whatever product they make, that's why fittings CAN be small.
> 
> So basically, the idea that a PEX fitting having a diameter that's too small is really a bunk theory. It's irrelevant.


This is exactly my concern. Now it wouldnt affect pressure but that friction has to affect volume.

And then theres bonding/electric. I know its here to stay I just think the old time test copper is best. My plumbers concern is the cost and losing jobs.


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## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

Copper is almost extinct here I haven't seen a new house with copper in over ten years. Every thing is pex and manifolds and even the manifolds are becoming plastic instead of copper. Even the supply house doesn't carry quantity of copper fittings. 

Cole


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Cole82 said:


> Copper is almost extinct here I haven't seen a new house with copper in over ten years. Every thing is pex and manifolds and even the manifolds are becoming plastic instead of copper. Even the supply house doesn't carry quantity of copper fittings.
> 
> Cole


Same here. Isn't that concerning to many plumbers? I realize there will always be a demand for plumbing service, and installations. But, many a home-owner isn't afraid of plastic. Whereas copper, that's a whole different story.

Hey, we all have our own challenges, but this plastic stuff is going to hurt you guys (opinion).


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I've run across too many "copper" plumbers that didn't have a basic fitting or valve in the truck. That makes me nuts. I even told them the issue ahead of time. It's good to be the king, I guess.

My dad likes to say "Honor thy plumber" for some reason.


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