# Cultured stone falling off in midwest



## schlagee (Nov 6, 2015)

I hear about masons having stone pop off exterior walls around wi, mn area. I haven't had it happen to me , but I'm curious as to what would cause it to happen. Is it just one of those things that could happen to anyone, or does it have to do with the method used for laying the stone? Just curious if there's any extra precautions that can be made to ensure it doesn't happen.


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## schlagee (Nov 6, 2015)

Kind of a dumb question I guess..... I know WHY it happens (weather, house movement, etc) I guess I was more or less wondering why it seems to happen to some and not others...must just be the craftsmanship, (or lack of)


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Most of the issues I see are Masons dry stacking peel and stick stone over wood framing. Water/ice gets behind or between stones and pops them in the winter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## schlagee (Nov 6, 2015)

When you say over wood framing, do you mean without any weather paper or anything?? Just plywood, metal lath, and Scratch coat??? I do plywood, two layers of weather paper, rain screen, metal lath, scratch coat, then apply the stone. Sounds excessive, but it seems the safest way to me.


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## schlagee (Nov 6, 2015)

Don't know where that smiley face came from!!!


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## HNContracting (Oct 22, 2015)

My guess is an incorrect install, or trying to push through weather that isnt ideal for install. When you apply it correctly it's rock solid.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

I wash all my thinstone or Thinbrick before install.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

Whenver I have seen it fall off it's because the guy putting it on didn't keep his scratch coat and the back of the stone damp, or it froze.

It is all provided that the scratch coat was installed properly to begin with.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

schlagee said:


> When you say over wood framing, do you mean without any weather paper or anything?? Just plywood, metal lath, and Scratch coat??? I do plywood, two layers of weather paper, rain screen, metal lath, scratch coat, then apply the stone. Sounds excessive, but it seems the safest way to me.


excessive?..sounds like the directions..


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

..masons wanted me to tyvek the lower front that was getting culture stone..i said sure i'll tyvek it for you but your supposed to have a 2 layer wrb to prevent bonding etc..they looked at me like i had lobsters crawling out of my ears..


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Code around these parts is now the same as stucco...2 ply grade D 60 min...or single ply with a rain screen.

Lath, stop bead, weeps all apply.


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## schlagee (Nov 6, 2015)

Hey Tom. I agree, it should be done that way. But around here, it seems rare to see other masons put the 2 layers of weather paper on. And if they do put the rain screen on, they don't put any paper on underneath the rs. It's standard for me to do all of it, but it's uncommon. That's what I meant by seems excessive. Nice to know you apply the correct way as well!!


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Dusty, dirty and dry stone and dry mud is probably the #1 cause for delamination.


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## Gordon Forsyth (May 18, 2015)

I live in south florida so we don't have a problem of freezing down here. The cultured stone jobs that i have done repair on were because the mason used weak mud to lay the stone. I have also seen scratch coats that were way to sandy unable to hold the stone. 

Since I live in a rainy area I am surprised by the number of contractor's who only put up a paperback wire lath over plywood thinking that little bit of paper is there water barrier. I inform them that they need tar paper behind the paperback wire lath.


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## schlagee (Nov 6, 2015)

Gordon Forsyth , you should look into a product called rainscreen. It eliminates any water from holding between the stone and wall. I use it on all my exterior jobs. I think you'll find it extremely useful in a rainy area like Florida.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I would second that. Google vapor drive, that is what will happen.


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## CanCritter (Feb 9, 2010)

sitdwnandhngon said:


> Whenver I have seen it fall off it's because the guy putting it on didn't keep his scratch coat and the back of the stone damp, or it froze.
> 
> It is all provided that the scratch coat was installed properly to begin with.


....................................................................................

Dusty, dirty and dry stone and dry mud is probably the #1 cause for delamination. 

supersealconstruction.com 

........................................................................
you folks are prettywell bang on...folks that scratchcoat generaly have issues due to quality control ie muds to dry...bricky dosnt care to temper the mud and just slaps it on and it realy dosnt stick to the scratch coat and now you have a barrier between the scratch coat and the stone that will allow moisture into and in time will frezze thaw knockin stone offa wall...scratch coats are a bad idea imo...seen it time and time again in my decades of the trade
l go all year round running large commercial jobs that take me from one end of Canada to the other...l don't apply scratch coats...l apply my tyvec and of as late are using the rainscreen as mentioned earlier...
all l have my guys do is parge and apply stone right into the mesh and mud...mud acts as a fillagre on a ring...basicly the wet mortar acts as arms or tentacles that hold the stone in place as a fillagre would hold a diamond in a ring..firmly....
thousands of feet every year for last 8 and no repairs in that time...l stand by my application procedure...weve run into building inspectors that say scratch coat needed...we just tell them to go pound sand as we manufacture our own stone and in doing so write our own code and installation instructions and proceedures
the only time l use a scratch coat is if lm doing stucco and l haven't done that in over 25 years....
just finished this project...15,000 sq...typical project



in this last pic some duffus was drilling and hit the water main to the point they hadda dig under my dam post...in anycase they did there 10 ft excavation and refilled...no repair nessasary on post
scratch coats are evil


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## schlagee (Nov 6, 2015)

Cancritter, I like your theory on scratch coat, it makes a lot of sense.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Well you can do anything you want, doesnt mean its better, or worse. Real world experience is great, but everyone has their own and will swear its the bees knees. Code states you need 1/4 or 1/8th of mud behind the lathe as well as in front of it. I dunno, thats a lot of wet mud (it also prohibits the use of thin set or Mvis which is become my standard anyhow) with the potential to pull off the house due to weight or whatever reason. 

People can make a bunch of stuff work if they do it every day for years on end. 

I do believe the ownens corning instructions for culturd stone states no scratch, but it also has the ability to absorb.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

If it's exterior and wood framing, I want a scratch coat...interior and masonry surfaces, I just lick and stick.


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