# fall protection



## [email protected]

Jason-F said:


> In a fall restraint system using a anchor point? 5000 lbs? Impossible. Thats like droping your truck off the roof attached to that anchor point and saying those 6 nails in the stud are going to hold that truck from hitting the ground. 900 pounds is definatly the force excerted at the anchor point. All the systems we use have a shock absorver at the end of the rop & at the anchor point, specifically to keep the force on that anchor from going over 900 lbs.


 I want to see the harness and the lanyard that only throws 900 lbs at the anchor point, we have to be 900 lbs at the harness thats what the shock absorber in the lanyard is for.


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## katoman

The new approved system I've gone to is called "fall stop" rather than "fall arrest".

The difference is that the line adjuster and connection are right at your front connection. No lanyard required.

Those aren't the correct terminologies. Hope you understand. I'll take a pic of my set up on the weekend and post it for you all.

It's now been adopted and used by Ontario Hydro, and those guys are nuts for safety.


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## [email protected]

Thats a cool system, Ive seen it demoed. Im trying to switch over to all yoyos. You dont have to worry about guys less than 18 ft off the ground tying off corectly.


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## Jason-F

That spec is for a Fall Arrest System. Fall arrest systems have higher load ratings because they are designed for dealing with impact forces. To get a anchor point that would hold 3000 pounds we would have to have ground anchors installed on every residential job we did.Not economically feasable. Also not possible to just use the strap we are talking about here and a truck becuase obviously you cant park a vehicle any place you require when working residential.

We deal with Fall Restraint Systems, which have lower load requirments. With a restraint system you can use a crown anchor and attach it into the truss studs.

*Regulatory excerpt*
Section 11.6 of the _OHS Regulation_ states:
(1) In a temporary *fall* restraint system, an anchor for a personal *fall* protection system must have an ultimate load capacity in any direction in which a load may be applied of at least 
(a) 3.5 kN (800 lbs), or 
(b) four times the weight of the worker to be connected to the system.
(2) Each personal *fall* protection system that is connected to an anchor must be secured to an independent point of anchorage.
(3) In a temporary *fall* arrest system, an anchor for a personal *fall* protection system must have an ultimate load capacity in any direction required to resist a *fall* of at least
(a) 22 kN (5,000 lbs), or 
(b) two times the maximum arrest force.
(4) A permanent anchor for a personal *fall* protection system must have an ultimate load capacity in any direction required to resist a *fall* of at least 22 kN (5,000 lbs).​


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## [email protected]

Restraint systems are harder to set up and make sure your employees are using correctly, unless its a guardrail type system. I have seen a lot of roofers misunderstand the difference and tied of in a restraint anchor point but have enough life line to fall off the leading edge. If you can go off any leading edge or platform it becomes fall arrest.


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## Jason-F

ubenhad4 said:


> Restraint systems are harder to set up and make sure your employees are using correctly, unless its a guardrail type system.


You think its harder to put 6 nails into a crown anchor and tie off than it is to build guard rails around a roof? REALLY?

You think its harder to install a crown anchor (which takes no more than a minute) than it is to install screw anchors into someones lawn? REALLY?

As long as the anchor is secure, the rope is on and they are wearing the harness, I think its pretty dam easy to see if its being used correctly or not.


I dont think your knowledge pertains to this part of the industry.


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## [email protected]

Jason-F said:


> You think its harder to put 6 nails into a crown anchor and tie off than it is to build guard rails around a roof? REALLY?
> 
> You think its harder to install a crown anchor (which takes no more than a minute) than it is to install screw anchors into someones lawn? REALLY?
> 
> As long as the anchor is secure, the rope is on and they are wearing the harness, I think its pretty dam easy to see if its being used correctly or not.
> 
> 
> I dont think your knowledge pertains to this part of the industry.


 Has nothing to do with whats harder, faster or better in your opinion or anyone elses for that matter. All that matters is the regs.

Im not saying fall restraint with a harness is wrong. It just has to be more than "theres an anchor, rope and harness. Lack of and improper use of fall protection is the #1 osha fine here. Guys using a restraint system while working on the leading edge and the life line has slack that would allow them to go over the edge. 
If the user can fall in anyway it has to be an arrest system, period there is no arguing this point. And as to my knowledge not pertaining. Framing is one of the hardest jobs to properly set up fall protection. The roof isnt there to tie off to and go. We have to approach fall protection in a whole different way than just throw up an anchor at the ridge and go. 
You do it your way and ill do it the right way and make sure that when I talk about it in a public forum I am stating facts not just what I think. Rigging fall protection wrong can put you out of business quick around here.
You also might want to read this
http://www.contractortalk.com/f15/revised-osha-regs-fall-prevention-94430/


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## Jason-F

I think the problem here is that we are talking about different things, and that you might be challenged in practical applications of product systems, but that aside, I am talking industry specific for roofers, as this thread pertains to equipment in "roofing" the field..and for some reason you though you would weigh in with totally irreverent information to the thread about ground anchors and guard rails...even some other crap, but thanks.


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## katoman

Jason - not sure if this applies to you, but here in Ontario the regs are changing. This year we all must take a full 8 hr. fall arrest course. 

Regardless if you have your current fall arrest certificate we now need to take this new course and new certification.

I'm booking three of us to go at the same time. It will be interesting to say the least of why it's an 8 hr. course. I hear it includes a lot about scaffold erection also.

Anyway, that's the new law here. Have you heard about this?


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## [email protected]

Jason-F said:


> I think the problem here is that we are talking about different things, and that you might be challenged in practical applications of product systems, but that aside, I am talking industry specific for roofers, as this thread pertains to equipment in "roofing" the field..and for some reason you though you would weigh in with totally irreverent information to the thread about ground anchors and guard rails...even some other crap, but thanks.


I never brought up ground anchors ever, that was you stud. You obviously dont know the regulations or the proper use of the equipment you use.
This thread had nothing to do with roofing or roofers. It was about an anchor sling. Anchor slings are used mostly in steel and wood frame erection. Everything I have said is based on fact and how the manufactures of fall protection equipment want there equipment used. I have been to many fall protection training seminars and have had the fall protection company reps out on my job site to do demonstrations and training. Have you EVER?
Your throw a rope around a truck hitch and take the keys out just doesn't cut the mustard in the real world of contracting and worker safety. I feel for your guys as you obviously dont know how to properly implement fall protection.
Good luck next time you get checked, if you ever even have.


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## Jason-F

No, I have not specifically heard of any changes coming yet, besides from the osha program changes that were posted on this site earlier today. When you say that "you all" do you mean you have to put all employees through it as well?


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## Tinstaafl

Jason-F said:


> ..and for some reason you though you would weigh in with totally irreverent information to the thread about ground anchors and guard rails...even some other crap, but thanks.


Maybe you should scan back up to the OP. The question was originally posted from a framer's perspective. Yours is not the only one applicable. :whistling


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## [email protected]

Tinstaafl said:


> Maybe you should scan back up to the OP. The question was originally posted from a framer's perspective. Yours is not the only one applicable. :whistling


 Funny thing is last time I checked I operate a framing company in one of the strictest most regulated and enforced states when it comes to osha. Thought I knew a thing or two about this stuff.:whistling


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## JustaFramer

Jason-F said:


> I think the problem here is that we are talking about different things, and that you might be challenged in practical applications of product systems, but that aside, I am talking industry specific for roofers, as this thread pertains to equipment in "roofing" the field..and for some reason you though you would weigh in with totally irreverent information to the thread about ground anchors and guard rails...even some other crap, but thanks.


:blink: 

You are telling me you nail temporary anchor points? :no: FAIL :laughing:

BTW personally the "roofers" rope system is the weakest of fall protection. It should be outlawed.


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## KennMacMoragh

The rule in our state is 5000 lbs for a fall arrest system. Last time I checked, a fall restraint system only needs 2000 lbs.


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## [email protected]

Ah Tin did you get rid of his post? I thought that one was pretty funny. 
Heres some 5000 lbs rated anchors anyway.


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## [email protected]

KennMacMoragh said:


> The rule in our state is 5000 lbs for a fall arrest system. Last time I checked, a fall restraint system only needs 2000 lbs.


 Ive just found that employees use of a restraint system leaves you open to major employee misuse. At $15000 a violation I make sure all fall protection is employee proof and just using a arrest system is easier to control. The 5000 lbs anchor is no big deal.








I really want to get one of these, they can be mounted on the deck or roof deck. With yoyos your 100% mobile and compiant. Its a 15000 lbs anchor point for 3 attachments. Its pretty cool in the live demonstrations, I think you could hook a truck to it and not be able to yank it out.


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## [email protected]

Osha fines, they reduce the first two the 3rd is $15000 fine per employee. I framed a house in the same neighbor hood that an osha inspector lived in, he checked me weekly. The roofer got nailed with 5 willful failure to use fall protection tickets 3rd violation put him out of business. If I remember right 15000 is for over 25ft its around 12000 if under, fines are based upon severity of injury that could occur. Ive gotten a serious fine for a guy wearing a harness with the life line sitting there and he didn't snap in. It was my first and it was $5000 they reduced to $500 and if I got another serious violation in fall protection the $5000 would not be reduced and the 3rd would be $15000.
Im not going down because of trying to short cut safety, an employee not following the rules is inexcusable to me you get one warning and then its hit the road. I have weekly safety meetings,also required by law. Each employee has to sign off on what the meeting was about and that they have no questions about any safety related topic.


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## KennMacMoragh

ubenhad4 said:


> Ive just found that employees use of a restraint system leaves you open to major employee misuse. At $15000 a violation I make sure all fall protection is employee proof and just using a arrest system is easier to control. The 5000 lbs anchor is no big deal.
> 
> I really want to get one of these, they can be mounted on the deck or roof deck. With yoyos your 100% mobile and compiant. Its a 15000 lbs anchor point for 3 attachments. Its pretty cool in the live demonstrations, I think you could hook a truck to it and not be able to yank it out.


Yeah, I've never used a fall restraint system personally. Usually in situations where you could use them, you'll be better off using a railing or monitoring system. Having a rope short enough for a leash so you can't even get to the edge doesn't give you much freedom. I was speaking in response to Jason, I have no idea what the laws are in Canada, but 5000 lbs seems high for fall restraint.


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## FramingPro

KennMacMoragh said:


> Yeah, I've never used a fall restraint system personally. Usually in situations where you could use them, you'll be better off using a railing or monitoring system. Having a rope short enough for a leash so you can't even get to the edge doesn't give you much freedom. I was speaking in response to Jason, I have no idea what the laws are in Canada, but 5000 lbs seems high for fall restraint.


gaurd rails need to withstand 200 lbs any direction:whistling


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## mudpad

KennMacMoragh said:


> Yeah, I've never used a fall _restraint_ system personally. Usually in situations where you could use them, you'll be better off using a railing or monitoring system.


Problem with a monitor is what's the monitor gonna do if somebody slips and fall? Then he is no longer a monitor, but a witness (at the lawsuit):thumbup:

I'm not saying there isn't a place for warning line and monitor, but 99% of the time proper fall _arrest_ system can be provided with a little thought and creativity, especially with all the info on the net these days.


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## KennMacMoragh

FramingPro said:


> gaurd rails need to withstand 200 lbs any direction:whistling


You're right, same as it is here :thumbsup: What are the requirements for a warning line instead of a railing? See if you can list them?


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## KennMacMoragh

mudpad said:


> Problem with a monitor is what's the monitor gonna do if somebody slips and fall? Then he is no longer a monitor, but a witness (at the lawsuit):thumbup:
> 
> I'm not saying there isn't a place for warning line and monitor, but 99% of the time proper fall _arrest_ system can be provided with a little thought and creativity, especially with all the info on the net these days.


Sounds about right, I've only used a monitoring system once for a company.


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## Andy Bull

*OOOPs lets think this one out*



Jason-F said:


> You think its harder to put 6 nails into a crown anchor and tie off than it is to build guard rails around a roof? REALLY?
> 
> You think its harder to install a crown anchor (which takes no more than a minute) than it is to install screw anchors into someones lawn? REALLY?
> 
> As long as the anchor is secure, the rope is on and they are wearing the harness, I think its pretty dam easy to see if its being used correctly or not.
> 
> 
> I dont think your knowledge pertains to this part of the industry.


 If I put a roof anchor on the roof with 6 nails and it is 4 feet from and edge and I attach a 6' lanyard to it I am going to fall off the edge. If I am usinf a rope and rope grab and I am at the corner of the roof, I still can fall off the ledge. If I use an SRL the same is true. That is not a fall restraint anchor it is a fall arrest anchor.
Andy


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## Andy Bull

5000 is often misunderstood in fall protection.
A 6' fall of a 310 lb man creates an impact force of about 2400 lbs. To achieve a 2 to 1 safety factor we use 5000 as an anchor point for fall arrest.
To help illustrate this take a book weighing a few pounds and drop it on a table from 1' then drop it from 3-4 feet. Do you hear a diffrence? Safe thing happens when we fall the higher we are the father we fall and the more impact force we will hit with.


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## Westcoasting

Jason-F said:


> That spec is for a Fall Arrest System. Fall arrest systems have higher load ratings because they are designed for dealing with impact forces. To get a anchor point that would hold 3000 pounds we would have to have ground anchors installed on every residential job we did.Not economically feasable. Also not possible to just use the strap we are talking about here and a truck becuase obviously you cant park a vehicle any place you require when working residential.
> 
> We deal with Fall Restraint Systems, which have lower load requirments. With a restraint system you can use a crown anchor and attach it into the truss studs.


Jason you are missing something here. I was just in a fall protection/fall arrest course a few months ago and the crown anchor is definitely rated for 5000 lbs attached at the ridge. Have had lots of work with WCB inspections and this is all they require.


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## FramingPro

I figured it out, its for forming and stuff, it is poured into the slab and it gives a tie off point for other guys and formers:thumbsup:


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