# Tucking cmu



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

Hi all, we're currently in the middle of redoing a deep foundation and it seems our mason got lazy with tucking the cmu exterior (below grade) walls. They did the first 8 courses, then skipped tucking the exterior joints on the next 5 (they just reached over the wall and troweled it around leaving cracked mortar and gaps everywhere.) they have 4 more courses to go. I'm guessing they were too lazy to walk a ladder around the muddy exterior trench (10' below grade and muddy now) and tool on the mortar
First question, isn't it mandatory or code that all joints be tucked? Does somebody know where I can find the specific code?
They are taking for granted that we are spending on a waterproofing membrane, so I assume they also thought "they heck with it because of the membrane," but if that membrane fails, wouldn't a properly tucked joint be better than not?
Should I just settle for them parging more mortar over the areas to "clean it up" as they said they would to since we complained? I assume they should grind it out and do it properly.

Thanks..


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

Pics


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Parging and scraping is fine, but where there is the ability to penetrate the joint, it should be filled. 

If it were me ,i would use a product like this http://www.umaco.com/sites/umaco.com/files/pdf/data/U-Seal 2016_2.pdf which would be a great back up to the system you are putting on.


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

Thanks, JBM. ALL of the exterior 5 courses that weren't tucked have cracks and voids. When we're paying for a job, I have a problem needing to figure out alternative solutions that cost additional money for something that could have been avoided, and should have been done. Parging over deep cracks won't fill the cracks completely, that's why I assume tucking the mortar when it's still playable must be standard practice when building underground...? Looking for help on what the masonry code must be. As an example with these guys, the cells are fully grouted, but they were refusing to vibrate / consolidate the grout. They thought it was overkill. It is in fact in the masonry code that grout be consolidated over 12 inches. Engineer and architect needed to 'clarify' it for them so they did what was needed. They were using a slump of 4-5 when code is I believe 8-11. They were trying to order wrong cmu, wrong cement psi, wrong rebar (4 instead of 6), etc, etc..(Btw- will still look into that product...thanks! I was looking to possibly drylok it before the membrane anyways..) any idea on what the masonry code says about tucking newly laid joints? Tks!


----------



## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Mortar joint striking is not a structural requirement since it has little effect on the wall strength. It may have an effect on the water tightness.

For appearance, there are a number of different methods of jointing:

1) flush joints
2) weeping joints (oozed out)
3) concave tooled
4) vee tooled
5) raked
6) beveled

For engineered masonry, the joints in two block prisms for testing are struck flush. The ASTM code for mortar (Appendix note 1) states that the weakest mortar possible for the structural loads should be used since workability is more important.

Thoroseal is superior for providing a "tight "surface instead of a DIY "paint" type DIY material like Drylock. It is more work to apply the pancake batter consistency material, but it becomes a part of the wall. - The wall must be water misted before applying.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Tooling the joint increases the density of the mortar, but for a wall that is getting a membrane waterproofing, who cares. If the membrane fails, the CMU is not an adequate backup no matter how well the joints are tooled.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Cistern said:


> Thanks, JBM. ALL of the exterior 5 courses that weren't tucked have cracks and voids. When we're paying for a job, I have a problem needing to figure out alternative solutions that cost additional money for something that could have been avoided, and should have been done. Parging over deep cracks won't fill the cracks completely, that's why I assume tucking the mortar when it's still playable must be standard practice when building underground...? Looking for help on what the masonry code must be. As an example with these guys, the cells are fully grouted, but they were refusing to vibrate / consolidate the grout. They thought it was overkill. It is in fact in the masonry code that grout be consolidated over 12 inches. Engineer and architect needed to 'clarify' it for them so they did what was needed. They were using a slump of 4-5 when code is I believe 8-11. They were trying to order wrong cmu, wrong cement psi, wrong rebar (4 instead of 6), etc, etc..(Btw- will still look into that product...thanks! I was looking to possibly drylok it before the membrane anyways..) any idea on what the masonry code says about tucking newly laid joints? Tks!


If I remember correctly Dick the engineer above mentioned before that the grout shouldn't be super strong and dense. 

I remember cutting out openings in blockwork that was grouted in Florida, it wasn't vibrated and full of air. That was the norm. 

It's true at this point who cares how it's tooled other than you would have liked to know the money you spent were for professionals, but you got monkies with trowels.


----------



## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

The grout really does not add as much to the strength unless you have reinforcement in the cores and lapped with steel from the footing/slab. - It is just an expensive insurance policy against the unknowns (if they even happen).

As JBM mentioned, there can be air/voids in the cores, but it is better than nothing (if needed). To often, masons use mortar to slush cores full, but it is not effective. Grout must have a slump between 8" and 11" to make sure it has enough water in it. The moisture in the grout allows a better bond to the CMUs since it is absorbed or sucked in by the CMUs. Unlike concrete, where water is an enemy, the water in grout insures a better structure and continuity. It must be consolidated after it settles. - I have seen many reinforced masonry jobs where there is a maximum allowable strength for the grout (if it is even tested).

The controlling factor in masonry is the CMU strength and it can range between 3000 and 8000 psi, while the minimum allowable is about 1900 psi. It also makes life easier if the right shape blocks are used to provide proper filling AND only filling the necessary cores. - If you are in the east, it can be difficult to find the range of shapes that are available there.

Dick


----------



## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

JBM -

The grout does not have be extremely strong since no mater what the strength is, the wall strength is usually controlled by the block prism strength of a 2 block high prism for engineered masonry. I had 2 block prisms made with 2000 psi mortar and they tested out at about 5000 psi because of the block strength.

The U.S. masonry industry needs to be more exposed to the modern methods/products. - In Brazil, they build 5 to 22 story buildings with 6" block using partially reinforced walls with no steel or concrete columns in the building. Every block is identified strength at the plant and is identified by color marking system since languages can pose a problem. The design code was out of our U.S. current codes/standards and there was no need for the troublesome clean-outs because of improved block shapes and random video camera checks for the cores to be grouted. - Obviously, due to the modern approach and using U.S. masonry codes (ACI 530), it is a huge masonry market with block upon block of masonry high rises.

I wish I could see this construction technology used in the U.S., but not likely.

Dick


----------



## cdkyle (Jul 12, 2009)

Looks like some really poor piece of work. Maybe apprentices? No skilled mason would leave a job like that. Pitiful.


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

Tscarborough said:


> Tooling the joint increases the density of the mortar, but for a wall that is getting a membrane waterproofing, who cares. If the membrane fails, the CMU is not an adequate backup no matter how well the joints are tooled.


The mason is not the company doing the waterproofing so ASSuming they can take a shortcut is bs... From what I'm hearing, a good mason wouldn't leave un-toooled joints on the exterior walls of an underground basement. Fully aware the mortar isn't there for strength, but it does provide a means to shed water since you'd want the water to shed to the bottom rather than get trapped in the wall if gutters and grade fail. Un-tooled as it sits with deep cracks and voids can hold water and deteriorate and shorten the lifespan of the wall. Architect is having them grind out the bad spots and repoint. Just amazed code seems a bit ambiguous when it's clearly better to have water shed..

A bit more about the build if it helps.. #6 rebar tied into footings and 16"o/c. Double bar on window and door openings as well as every wall end. 2800psi CMU walls fully grouted. Basement finished height 11'. We're building the same basement under a new double carport structure that will have prestressed concert planks (topped with slab) and a steel deck with concrete slab above that. Didn't pour walls because of limitations with getting a good enough over-dig for forms. 1845 house currently lifted above and will be set back on new foundation. Fun stuff. Horrible mason!


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Did the specifications call for a tooled joint?


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

Tscarborough said:


> Did the specifications call for a tooled joint?


 they called to do the work in accordinamce with the code... that's why I'm looking for the code. Giving the application (living space rather than cellar) I would think leaving deep gaps and cracks would just be dumb. We added the membrane after the plans, so they should be doing the work based on the bid and not what they think will happen. It didn't call for consolidating the grout - they complained about that, but the structural engineer showed them the masonry code that clearly states it needs to be done. Just trying to get what is a best practice and/or code done. honestly, the detail book is pretty big and haven't myself delved too deep into it. I'll take a look this evening. Engineer on vacation..


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

High lift grout is sometimes consolidated. Low lift should not need it, and if it does, the grout is too tight. Tooled joints are not in the code, but are best practice. However, there are too many possibilities for how the joints should be finished for it to be covered in code, kind of like how mortar itself is specified. Broadly and open to job conditions.

Certainly open joints are not acceptable under any circumstance, and code does cover that under the area of bedding.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I don't finish the joints below grade, but they are flush and brushed. I usually tar my own repair foundations if I'm running the job and a concave joint is irritating to roll over.

Did he use type s mortar?


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Exactly, cut joints would be preferred for applications below grade with either liquid or membrane waterproofing, and for a wall that is to be directly stucco'd too.


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

Tscarborough said:


> High lift grout is sometimes consolidated. Low lift should not need it, and if it does, the grout is too tight. .


I guess it depends on your definition of high vs low lift grouting? Attached is the code in the US. Over 12", you are required to consolidate grout- even with the required slump from 8-11.


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

JBM said:


> Did he use type s mortar?


Yes, type S. We have an additional engineering firm, GTA , out of the NE (NJ) watching. They test slumps, watch materials coming and going as well as limited oversight of soil/masonry build. Problem is they can't be there all the time... as soon as they leave, 4-5 courses go up un-tucked vs ALL the rest of it being done. As soon as they left, grout wasn't consolidated... etc, etc, etc. how do we know? Aside from the obvious signs.. them stinkers are on camera. They know there are a dozen CCTV cameras pointing at them, but they keep doing what they want!?


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

Tscarborough said:


> Certainly open joints are not acceptable under any circumstance, and code does cover that under the area of bedding.


 since I don't own the manual and rely on my engineer to point it out (bugger decided to take a long vacation) are you able to share the bedding code that may cover open joints? Thanks!


----------



## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Cistern -

What is the specific code you or your engineer cited that referred that used the 12" height to define the grouting procedure.?

That certainly is very odd in comparison to all the major codes in the U.S. and Europe. Could it be a unique old state code? Could it be for something other than grout for masonry?

The requirement national standards for grouting do not include vibratory consolidation since there is no room for vibrator in a typical masonry walls. Generally, the national codes specify some sort of staged grout lifts and a provision for the grout to settle and consolidate and topping off as the excess moisture in the 8" -11" slump is absorbed by the masonry units.

I think your engineer may be referencing the incorrect code or provisions.


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

concretemasonry said:


> Cistern -
> 
> What is the specific code you or your engineer cited that referred that used the 12" height to define the grouting procedure.?
> 
> ...


He took it from the ACI 530 code that is referenced in the International Building Codes. I've attached a picture of the code in my prior post....


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Cistern said:


> them stinkers are on camera. They know there are a dozen CCTV cameras pointing at them, but they keep doing what they want!?


I think I know why you got a terrible job....


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

From what I've been hearing is that 'residential' contractors simply don't do it because they have never been held to the code. The county inspects the rebar in the footing then walks away. Our remodel crosses over into a commercial type structure (but still residential), so we needed to bring in several specialists who live and breath the code on a daily basis on larger projects. <for instance, we're building a double carport over an 11' deep living space. 30' steel beams throughout 1st floor interior to open space, and a slab walk out flat deck above the carport. Those larger commercial masonry companies we've spoken to confirm a lot of residential contractors don't do it right, but they can't touch residential or help because of insurance and liabilities. So now I'm numb to "I've been doing this for 40 years, and never did that!! Lol


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

JBM said:


> Cistern said:
> 
> 
> > them stinkers are on camera. They know there are a dozen CCTV cameras pointing at them, but they keep doing what they want!?
> ...


That's not fair. The house is historic. The cameras are to show a ffwd show/ reel of it being put together and is shared with the historic commission. (lift/ excavation/masonry/siding/windows/doors/roof/steel carport structure being erected/etc) being captured and compiled into high speed video.. Everyone knows why they are there and several incredible contractors play to them because they love what they are doing. When there are clear problems (like holes and missing mortar in joints)- guess we shouldn't look? Fwiw, I wouldn't want a contractor that has things to hide.


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

Examples of what we're doing with the cameras: 
https://youtu.be/Z5lDPHo3EeY
https://youtu.be/hWNRz8JwaQw


----------



## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Where was the scaffolding needed???? 12" wide block can use a lot smaller slump # then a 8" deep units..... Where are the horizontal bond beams? pilasters every so often so retaining 11' of water soaked soil doesn't break the wall??????? The bed joints are bombed in, water has so many paths to the basement it is crazy ANYONE would think that wall could possibly be part of a water proof wall system-- It is like tarring the USS TITANIC, it will still leak and sink.....

YOU got what YOU PAID FOR, Man up and hire a PROFESSIONAL COMMERCIAL tuck-pointer or tear that fecal matter out. Get some men that can lay block around the rebar your silly engineer called out, Was ANY dura-wall used?????

ALL that steel doesn't do diddly without a proper sized footer and footing rebar, The SOG would need to be designed apart of the wall system, does it have adequate steel for the loads imposed on it???? 

The top of the walls need a continuous bond beam, most likely a two or even 3 course deep one to resist the loads imposed on the cantilevered walls or steel cross beams of proper size and spacing. 

What a mess being cheap has got YOU.

When hiring subs, in trades you have no knowledge of, the most important thing is that they are honest, These clowns would have told you they haven't a clue on how to underpin a house and end up with a DRY basement that won't crack or fail.... If they where honest....

You knew prior to leaving these workers unsupervised they wouldn't comply with all the contract provisions, yet still allowed them to work with out supervision.....
I suggest you reread the code regarding the parts of masonry rules that require CONSTANT supervision and testing.

Any low bid > 25% less then the next higher one is most likely by corner cutting crook. or fool. Or they missed a massive component, Civil law doesn't expect incompetent bidders to perform competently, leaving the dummies/cheapskates that excepted their bids liable for their failures. Will you be able to slough off your liability onto a greater cheapskate owner?
Please post on how this hot mess end up.


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Where was the scaffolding needed???? 12" wide block can use a lot smaller slump # then a 8" deep units..... Where are the horizontal bond beams? pilasters every so often so retaining 11' of water soaked soil doesn't break the wall??????? The bed joints are bombed in, water has so many paths to the basement it is crazy ANYONE would think that wall could possibly be part of a water proof wall system-- It is like tarring the USS TITANIC, it will still leak and sink.....
> 
> YOU got what YOU PAID FOR, Man up and hire a PROFESSIONAL COMMERCIAL tuck-pointer or tear that fecal matter out. Get some men that can lay block around the rebar your silly engineer called out, Was ANY dura-wall used?????
> 
> ...


A few things...
How is it you assume we took the cheapest bid? We most certainly did not. There is a GC on the project that hired the company. The bids for the work were across the board mostly even and he was absulitley not the cheapest. We are imstalling a standing seam roof, impact resistant windows and doors, have went out of our way to bring in additional crews and equipment at our expense to keep the project moving. Show me where I said we hired cheap in my comments? 

Of course the footings were not only adequately sized, they were oversized in areas and do have 3 (#4) horizontal rebar with #6 tied perpendicularly under them with the correct spacing. Psi of footings were tested and exceeded the strength within 7 days. Mix designs are being checked as well as strength on grout and random slump on mortar and grout. Who happily hired the company to manage the masonry work to help them out with code? We did. At our expense initially (until now when the masonry company keeps purposefully doing things wrong) , because despite whatever chip you might have on your shoulder and want to project your shortcomings on your customers- it isn't about the money for us. We most certainly did try and get commercial installers to bid and subsequently pick up the work. They CAN'T as I stated before. They do not have the insurances to cross over into residential work, try and get past any secretary for a commercial contracting company, they are bulldogs and hang up on residential.

Yes, we have a 'commercial' structural engineer who designed the footings and cmu wall strength based on loads of the project, depth of the basement, etc. as you would know, the steel companies do the initial renderings for what they propose, then both our architect and engineer sign off on the plans.

Again with the grout... let this (in your mind) cheap homeowner explain it to you this way... the slump of the grout has LESS to do with its ability to fill the cell than it has to do with what the cmu wall absorbs out of it as it cures over the next x days. 

I feel sorry for those you did work for where you felt you could go against code otherwise they (the customers) were being "cheap" because it meant more work for you to do it correct. Perhaps if those on the titanic followed procedures, it wouldn't have sunk.


----------



## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Sloppy work, sometimes I do not tool the joints however I don't leave any holes and I always brush the wall, it takes like two seconds and it looks so much nicer. Even if they're using a membrane coating, a nice smooth wall makes it easier to apply the membrane. I have too much pride to leave **** work like that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

I don't tool the back side of a wall, but we flush cut and brush. When we get the wall finished, we clean the footings off...both sides.

When finished...we rub the walls down with a rubbing block.

Smooth walls are easier to waterproof and look a lot better until you do.


----------



## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Cistern @ # 27:
1. So your GC never lies to you about anything? If you aren't the owner, how are your services adding value to the end owner?

2. If you paid the going Sq. Ft costs you got took.... or you went cheap( your GC lied, and went cheap, keeping the difference, or rigged the bidding with a vest-pocket sub....) Only a 9 cent outfit would grout several truck loads of grout on a single plank....

The results are proof of either cheap or incompetent masons, the incompetent should have been fired day one for failure to work to specs. 

3. "Oversized in Areas"..... yet another indication of wasteful low grade help and leadership, So are the "undersized in some areas?" Averages DON'T work on footing loads....

4. It appears to me that your M.O. is to have as many subs and generals along with the testing company as a "circle of blame" to explain away your serial management failures in the trade. Are you a vampire and own NO mirrors?

5. I am projecting a little here, Most likely the commercial Masonry outfits know of you and your reputation.... the insurance fairy tail was a variety of lie to have you quit bugging them for a bid.

6. I am so proud of your understanding of one facet of successful grouting, adequate bleed water, you appear to be a match book cover expert, knowing deeply the one line of rules created for masses that don't know when it is safe to deviate from them. 

Where are the horizontal rebar/ bond beams/durawall? Your wall is weak between the vertical rebar. with horizontal bars, much less, smaller bars could have been used. Even two bars in the same cell spread out to the edge of the cells would create a massive increase in the walls strength at NO cost.

Did the concrete mason install j-hooked starter vertical bars to maximize the capacity of the wall? are the top bars j-hooked into the top bond beam for max strength? 

You can pity me all you want, I never had a job go so far South on my watch.

Maybe it is time to move to another trade? Something where society has MORE wealth when you are done at the end of the day?:thumbsup:
Like the plans, execution not so much...

Spy cams and you STILL lost control of the building procedures, What you do?go on vacation for a month?

9.? the last paragraph I'll just write off to stress, At best it appears you are confusing me with your rat Masons YOU HIRED.

Don't worry, working for a serial failure isn't on my bucket list... 

One difference between journeymen and Masters of a trade, is the Masters can safely break the rules because he knows them inside and out, and the real world physics/chemistry underneath them.

So, you are the HO and a building contractor of some sort?

I'd suggest you sharpen your management saw a little. and less time blaming others on the Net....


----------



## Cistern (Jun 11, 2017)

Windycity said:


> Sloppy work, sometimes I do not tool the joints however I don't leave any holes and I always brush the wall, it takes like two seconds and it looks so much nicer. Even if they're using a membrane coating, a nice smooth wall makes it easier to apply the membrane. I have too much pride to leave **** work like that
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They had to grind out the loose mortar and take the cracked
Mortar to 1/2" where they repointed. It's in the spec book to have the non exposed joints struck and brushed. It's also on there to repoint cracked, loose or miss Mg mortar.. More importantly the cmu was to be laid on a correct bed of mortar- which by the gaps and cracks didn't happen. They spent most of the day fixing it and will do it as they go every other course moving forward.


----------

