# Hypothetical gutter job.. man hours



## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Ok I am having an argument with my foreman as I am bidding this big job. 820' gutter 150' downspout. He seems to think it will take 5 days. I tried to explain to him that based on his current production on regular houses (this is not a house) that his production would be 3 days (actually 2.6 days). So who's wrong? 


It's 16' from ground to gutter. Roof is about a 5/12. Runs are straight, no corners. We would install 6" .032 K style (trying to get the customer to upsize to 7" but that is a topic for another discussion) and 3x4 .019 downspouts. Includes tear off of existing gutter. 

Since this is prevailing wage, work days would be 8 hours no more (no over time.)

So if you were bidding this job how long do you think it would take for 3 workers to install?


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## mbobbish734 (Apr 28, 2011)

Seeing how your the one who hangs the gutters on a daily basis, you would have the advantage in knowing. Everybody works at a different pace. That being said, he's just making a cushion in case it don't go your way. Also if you talk him into 3 days and it takes 5 you'll never hear the end of it.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Offer a bonus if the job is completed within your time frame.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

So... 3 days or 5 days?


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

That is really tough to say without seeing the conditions. What tools are we working with, what is the site like, is everything all cut up. Do we have the gutter rig right there pumping out gutters. How are we going to be setting up for the install? Yada yada yada....

Me and another guy and snap a line, punch out the drop, pre-set the spikes and ferrules, and nail up a 50' length of gutter in 1/2 hr. Now there is tearing off of the old gutter. I would still need to cut and attach the downspouts. So gauging by all that I would figure 1.25 - 1.50 hours per 50' with 2 guys. So 50' per 2.5 - 3 man hours. 50/3= 16.6' per man hour. 820'/16.6'= 49.9 man hours. So, 2 guys 2.5 days. Granted, my installation method is different and I doubt I have the tools that you guys have. Also, I haven't account for moving around on the site and what not. Would need more slack in there.


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

WildWill said:


> pre-set the spikes and ferrules


Who still uses spikes and ferrules?


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

1985gt said:


> Who still uses spikes and ferrules?



No one, I have the gutters installed by the gutter guys. The last gutters I installed were close to 20 years ago...:thumbup:


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

Without seeing site conditions im going with 3 days.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Like I said, straight runs, no corners. Yep would be run out right on the job site. Pictures can be provided, but gutters aren't exactly rocket science. 


Quite honestly, on a 1 story ranch, I would expect 2 experienced gutter guys to be able to knock out 400-500' in an 8 hour day. Since this is a little taller than a ranch, is 6" instead of 5" I think 3 days with 3 guys is more than generous.


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

Well, by my calcs I would say that 3 guys 3 days should be plenty to cover everything. At that rate they would only need to install 11.3 feet of gutter w/downspouts per hour...



Grumpy said:


> Like I said, straight runs, no corners. Yep would be run out right on the job site. Pictures can be provided, but gutters aren't exactly rocket science.
> 
> 
> Quite honestly, on a 1 story ranch, I would expect 2 experienced gutter guys to be able to knock out 400-500' in an 8 hour day.


I agree! Once you're on a roll it flys. And as cheap as it is installed you'd better be running with it to make rate.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Grumpy said:


> Like I said, straight runs, no corners. Yep would be run out right on the job site. Pictures can be provided, but gutters aren't exactly rocket science.
> 
> 
> Quite honestly, on a 1 story ranch, I would expect 2 experienced gutter guys to be able to knock out 400-500' in an 8 hour day. Since this is a little taller than a ranch, is 6" instead of 5" I think 3 days with 3 guys is more than generous.



I think you are right, 3 days seems enough. It has only been about 20 yrs. since I did commercial gutter work when I was doing sheet metal but 3 days seems right.

God my post is about worthless. 

Why do I do it? :shutup:

Andy.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

And to think that I opened this thread because I saw that you posted. 

:laughing:


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

You say 3. He says 5. Call it 4 and hope it doesn't take 5.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

JR, That's what I said, then he said to add a day. LOL. 


JF, Even I, ESPECIALLY I, need a reality check from time to time. On a job this large and paying prevailing wage, I hate to be off by a day. One day error could be the difference between profit and loss. Well, no. One day error would be the difference between breka even and profit.


Also being as this is a municipality and it'd be nice to get my foot into that door, I have this bird in the back of my brain telling me if I bid to 5 days I won't get it. I know one of the competitors bidding, I know they will have their sub sign an angreement saying they will pay prevailing wage. I know their sub, I know their sub will sign without reading. I know they will charge extra, but not enough to cover prevailing wage and they will come in as the low bidder. 

This reminds me of one job I bid a few years ago on some out house roofs that ended up being like some ridiculous number like $800 a square. I would have got the job if I didn't get greedy and mark in a brand new truck and dump trailer into the cost of the job


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

Grumpy said:


> J I would have got the job if I didn't get greedy and mark in a brand new truck and dump trailer into the cost of the job



Ha thats funny because just on a whim we've bid 3 siding jobs we had no interest in the last 2 years. Been needing a new brake for awhile so we added the cost in on the bottom line. all 3 we lost by a little under the cost of the new brake. :laughing:


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

WildWill said:


> No one, I have the gutters installed by the gutter guys. The last gutters I installed were close to 20 years ago...:thumbup:


Whew!

Even box gutters we build we do not use spike and ferrules.


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## CrescentGutter (Nov 3, 2009)

Spike & Ferrule? Weren't they a gutter outfit from the 60's? :blink:


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

Thought it was a band from the 70's :laughing:


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

CrescentGutter said:


> Spike & Ferrule? Weren't they a gutter outfit from the 60's? :blink:


**** Stars :whistling
Rhymes with Corn stars


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## RandyB1986 (Jan 2, 2009)

2 days at most.........if it takes longer, I think you would be better off subbing at $3.25 a foot. My gutter guys do 300' in about 2 hours. I have no doubt my gutter guy could do it in 2 days top, probably 1. 

A good gutter guy and a helper can hang 500'+ per day.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

We're talking 6" Randy. $3.25 a foot? That's slave wages, even for 5". AND it is prevailing wage! I'm not sure if you read my post thuroughly.

If he can do 300' in two hours, but 500' in one day, what does he do for the other 5 hours? can he do 500 or 900 in a day? Big difference. Were you drinking?

I had a gutter sub crew once who could do 1,000' a day on average. It was a 4 man crew and 98% of their jobs were effed up. Sooo much speed but zero in caring about a job well done.


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## mbobbish734 (Apr 28, 2011)

Grumpy said:


> We're talking 6" Randy. $3.25 a foot? That's slave wages, even for 5".
> 
> If he can do 300' in one hour, but 500' in one day, what does he do for the other 6 hours?


Smoke ganga and walk in circles.:laughing:


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## Shieldsintx (May 27, 2011)

2.5 and half a day pick-up.


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## RandyB1986 (Jan 2, 2009)

Grumpy.....All I can say is if you are struggling this much on a little 800' gutter job......I would hate to see you on a "big" job. 3 guys x 8 hours.........24 prevailing wage hours, now you happy?

I don't give two puffs about prevailing wage or any of the other sissy aspects. You asked a question and I gave you an answer. We pay 2.85 to 3.35 a foot for 6" seamless, that's what guys here charge, he makes his $125,000 a year and is happy. Now if you guys want to pay $15 a foot.....go for it. All this worrying gonna make you old  

I still think maybe your help is old and slow..... lol


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## johnk (Apr 23, 2007)

Grumpy said:


> Like I said, straight runs, no corners. Yep would be run out right on the job site. Pictures can be provided, but gutters aren't exactly rocket science.
> 
> 
> Quite honestly, on a 1 story ranch, I would expect 2 experienced gutter guys to be able to knock out 400-500' in an 8 hour day. Since this is a little taller than a ranch, is 6" instead of 5" I think 3 days with 3 guys is more than generous.


2.5 to 3 days is my guess.I don't do it everyday.I watched good experienced gutter guys knock off 2 story houses(off and on)in 3-4 hrs corners etc..But thats all they do..Heh Grumpy,bin awhile.take care


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Yeah John, long time no talk.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

RandyB1986 said:


> Grumpy.....All I can say is if you are struggling this much on a little 800' gutter job......I would hate to see you on a "big" job. 3 guys x 8 hours.........24 prevailing wage hours, now you happy?
> 
> I don't give two puffs about prevailing wage or any of the other sissy aspects. You asked a question and I gave you an answer. We pay 2.85 to 3.35 a foot for 6" seamless, that's what guys here charge, he makes his $125,000 a year and is happy. Now if you guys want to pay $15 a foot.....go for it. All this worrying gonna make you old
> 
> I still think maybe your help is old and slow..... lol


No I am not happy. Have you seen my name? It takes alot more than words on a computer screen to make me happy, besides I had my answer long before you posted. I had my answer before I posted, but was checking to make sure I was accurate. Ya know, measure twice cut once. It works in estimating too. 



Again, it's prevailing wage. Your $2.85 is a joke. Do you even know what prevailing wage is? Again also it's 6" and 6" will cost $1.82 plus tax. You're talking $2 a foot just for gutter. Not counting end caps, corners, miters, caulk, screws, etc.... You're telling me your gutter sub installs gutter for less than $0.75 a foot? And you're teloign me for the $0.75 a foot he is paying union scale (prevailing wage)? Hmmmm... Either your gutter sub is on rocks or you might not fully comprehend what we are discussing here.


I've been hanging gutters for 13 years and even when I started, gutter subs were charging more than $3 a foot for 5" .027.


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## MSLiechty (Sep 13, 2010)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> God my post is about worthless.
> 
> Why do I do it? :shutup:
> 
> Andy.


 For the post count andy!

ML


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## MSLiechty (Sep 13, 2010)

i don't like gutters and don't install we don't really need there out here But at $3.25/ LF i don't see how you could make a living

ML


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

MSLiechty said:


> i don't like gutters and don't install we don't really need there out here But at $3.25/ LF i don't see how you could make a living
> 
> ML


Cheat your insurance and cheat your taxes and you'll make a killing.


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## RandyB1986 (Jan 2, 2009)

Grumpy said:


> Cheat your insurance and cheat your taxes and you'll make a killing.


Or go to work for the government and cheat the taxpayer by paying slackers prevailing wage.....pick your poison.

Or hire workers instead of slobs who mooch you to death. 3 guys working 8 hour days for 3 days to hang 800 feet of gutters is SLOW!! That is around 10 feet per man hour, lol. That is a joke. Did you get these guys on Craigslist? I can see why you are so Grumpy now :whistling 

Your material price seems high. Even your local Gutter Supply has 6" coil for less than $1 foot and I know a big timer like you gets big discounts.

Didn't mean to start a pissing contest.... 

Cheers my friend.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

I have no clue in gutters but I would suggest agreeing with foreman.

Foremen always think they are right.

Then get job done in 3 instead of 5.

Perform victory dance around him.
He will learn to not doubt you again.

As far as prevailing wage goes...hey in some parts of world case of beer and bag of weed is prevailing wage.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

RandyB1986 said:


> Or go to work for the government and cheat the taxpayer by paying slackers prevailing wage.....pick your poison.
> 
> Or hire workers instead of slobs who mooch you to death. 3 guys working 8 hour days for 3 days to hang 800 feet of gutters is SLOW!! That is around 10 feet per man hour, lol. That is a joke. Did you get these guys on Craigslist? I can see why you are so Grumpy now :whistling
> 
> ...


$1.28 per foot of 15" (6" gutter) .032 coil, plus tax and pickup/delivery. Tax is 9.5%. I do not use .027. Since I don't own a 6" machine, I get a run out at 1.82. I can get it from a less reliable company at $1.80 but they are never on time. If I did own a 6" machine I would have to figure cost of owner ship into the machine which would put the $1.28 on par with $1.82 anyways. 


Do I WANT to pay prevailing wage? No. Do I HAVE to pay prevailing wage? YES or I wouldn't in the first place. It's not even a matter worth further discussion. 

Don't forget it's 820' gutter and 150' downspouts. It's actualy closer to 14' a man hour. The downspouts aren't free.


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## nlgutters (Dec 18, 2007)

2 at most.. My guys could have that done in a long day most likely.

If i where scheduling that on our board i would have another medium sized job booked for the 2nd days afternoon.


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## RandyB1986 (Jan 2, 2009)

Grumpy said:


> $1.28 per foot of 15" (6" gutter) .032 coil, plus tax and pickup/delivery. Tax is 9.5%. I do not use .027. Since I don't own a 6" machine, I get a run out at 1.82. I can get it from a less reliable company at $1.80 but they are never on time. If I did own a 6" machine I would have to figure cost of owner ship into the machine which would put the $1.28 on par with $1.82 anyways.
> 
> 
> Do I WANT to pay prevailing wage? No. Do I HAVE to pay prevailing wage? YES or I wouldn't in the first place. It's not even a matter worth further discussion.
> ...


That is the difference. I didn't realize you didn't run your own machine.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

If you have the gutter guys who did my gutters several weeks...

That's how long they took to do my gutters. One guy full time and another guy a couple days a week.

300ft over half 33ft from eave to ground. Of course a few days only a couple hours were put in.

2 guys who know how to hang? 3 days.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Also,

My gutter guy charges me $5 a foot for 5in K style and $55 for one story spouts and $75 for two story spouts. Insurance pays about $6 foot for either 5in gutters or spouts.

We see 6in every once in a great while on high end homes.


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## kage (Aug 17, 2008)

2 days tops...


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## RandyB1986 (Jan 2, 2009)

That is something how areas are so different. Here in our area the only people using 5" are the tract homes and they pay about $2.65 per foot. Every residential house we do is 6" and most apartment complexes. We pay footage price for downspouts 13 feet for 1 story and 23 for 2 story and pay the same as gutter footage price, tear off of old gutters is xtra. 

I talked to my gutter guy earlier and scheduled 2 houses for this week. About 700 feet total with downspouts. He said he would be at the first one about 1pm Tuesday, I asked him if he was just doing 1 Tuesday and he said no, he would do them both. It gets dark at 7....so we'll see.


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## RandyB1986 (Jan 2, 2009)

So how did your gutter job go Grumpy? They did both of my jobs on Tuesday. Guy told me his material costs have dropped in the last couple of months. There were 2 guys, took them 6 hours including fighting a 89' long run by themselves with all kinds of obstacles.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> I think you are right, 3 days seems enough. It has only been about 20 yrs. since I did commercial gutter work when I was doing sheet metal but 3 days seems right.
> 
> God my post is about worthless.
> 
> ...


Cause we would miss ya if ya didn't. :jester:


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

LOL a hypothetical question on time to finish a prevailing wage job. Must be nice to be an old guy ,cops must like you.


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## artiospainting (Mar 16, 2011)

Give it a fair price for your self and let it go.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Job is long done!


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## RandyB1986 (Jan 2, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Job is long done!


You sure......them prevailing wage jobs can drag out. lol


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

RandyB1986 said:


> You sure......them prevailing wage jobs can drag out. lol


Lol, I have no idea but dang!


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