# engineered hard. Glue Vs Staple Vs Float........



## SchwarzBruder (Jan 8, 2016)

how do u determine which is the best method for the job?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Substrate, environment, budget, sound requirements, expected/intended install life.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

How timely. I'm going to do a floating eng. hardwood in a couple weeks. Never did one. Any tips?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Tongue and groove or locking system?


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## SchwarzBruder (Jan 8, 2016)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Tongue and groove or locking system?


tongue and groove


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> How timely. I'm going to do a floating eng. hardwood in a couple weeks. Never did one. Any tips?


Flat substrate and take your time. Patience, Daniel-son.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Last one I did recommended full glue or staple...3/8" t&g. 

I ran a thin bead of PL premium under the tongue side, then stapled using spotnails flooring stapler and nylon coated staples. 

Quiet as a church mouse and firm under foot. I was very pleased except for the two days it took me to put it down...and it was a small bedroom.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

SchwarzBruder said:


> tongue and groove


Check milling before you get started to see how much space you actually have for glue. If it's a very tight mill don't overfill the joint as it will cause you to have issues getting the joints tight and it will also cause the joints to open up from hydraulic pressure until the glue tacks. 

I keep a wet rag with me and wipe the glue squeeze out as I go, it makes cleanup easier at the end. 

Make yourself a few tapping blocks before you get going if you don't already have some. Also get yourself some spacers if you don't already have some. I love the Crain red horseshoe ones. They come in handy for bowed walls, wrapping around vertical obstacles like columns or islands and help keep you already laid joints tight when you're banging boards in on the other side.

I like to run the tongue side out, that way when you stop for awhile or at the end of the day you don't have to remember to not glue the last row, and there's no glue cleanup when you get going again later.

A good way to gain productivity in open areas is to have a helper gluing boards up a ahead of you and another one making cuts at the end of the row with a shear. I can take two very green guys and teach them those two jobs and put 8-900ft on the floor in a day without working that hard.

I love floating floors....


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

I dislike floating floors, they sound hollow, what's going on under there is what I ask myself. What is hidden?

Paul, are the Pergo straps helpful for this method? Same way original pergo went together by glueing the joints. I've seen a few pergo kits for sale @150$, hopefully I never need to install floating.

Also ensure manufacturer of hardwood allows particular product can be floated and exact roll underlayment approved.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

MIKE ANTONETTI said:


> I dislike floating floors, they sound hollow, what's going on under there is what I ask myself. What is hidden?
> 
> Paul, are the Pergo straps helpful for this method? Same way original pergo went together by glueing the joints. I've seen a few pergo kits for sale @150$, hopefully I never need to install floating.
> 
> Also ensure manufacturer of hardwood allows particular product can be floated and exact roll underlayment approved.


Go up north where everything is on a crawl or upper floor - it all sounds hollow lol.

Yes the straps can help but honestly I rarely pull them out. On the odd loose milled floor they help you get a handful of rows started and set up so you have something to push against.

If it's an engineered it can be floated. Allow for expansion and use the best underlayment available.

I love floating floors because I can make great money doing them. I learned a long time ago to leave my personal aesthetic opinion about a product in the truck if it makes me money  Spread your disdain around for them Mike, I'll do them all lol.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Go up north where everything is on a crawl or upper floor - it all sounds hollow lol.
> 
> Yes the straps can help but honestly I rarely pull them out. On the odd loose milled floor they help you get a handful of rows started and set up so you have something to push against.
> 
> ...



Wife & I recently made $275/hr on an engineered floor. Like Mike, I hate em, but we can cover serious sq ft in short order, so we don't say no.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

It's weird, yesterday at coffee shop I have to tap on sheet vinyl floor with my fingernail to see if it sounds floating or not. Probably doesn't make noise for fiberglass back, not sure. 

We just did glue down on wood substrate, it does make noise when I knocked on it, but it has a better sound, maybe there would be a sound that is more desirable, just like they do for cars and motorcycles. My soft shoes don't make noise, but sounds are important feedback to brain.

Nail down Hardwood sounds good, you know it's solid/firm. Floating sounds flimsy I guess.

I agree, whatever customer wants.


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

PrecisionFloors said:


> I learned a long time ago to leave my personal aesthetic opinion about a product in the truck if it makes me money


Yeah, me too. I have a love/hate relationship with floating floors - I love the (good) money, but I hate the look and feel.


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## PerfectCntng (Jan 13, 2015)

God forbid they have a heating radiator leak or drop a pale of water. Omg ?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

PerfectCntng said:


> God forbid they have a heating radiator leak or drop a pale of water. Omg ?


Which would damage any wood floor. Not sure I understand your point.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I've seen many a traditional 3/4" hardwood floors correct themselves from the dreaded washboard effect after taking on water. Can't imagine any wood floater fairing as well.


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## PerfectCntng (Jan 13, 2015)

superseal said:


> I've seen many a traditional 3/4" hardwood floors correct themselves from the dreaded washboard effect after taking on water. Can't imagine any wood floater fairing as well.



Thanks super!!!


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

Today in the showroom I walked on floating laminate with my work boots, sounded like crap, the hardwood we glued down sounded firm. So the customer gets a voice in it also. I think walking on laminate(floor muffler as underlayment) would be a deterrent, and boost sales to glue down or nail down.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

superseal said:


> I've seen many a traditional 3/4" hardwood floors correct themselves from the dreaded washboard effect after taking on water. Can't imagine any wood floater fairing as well.


Again apples to oranges comparison. Any floor that can be glued/stapled/floated would be affected the same. We aren't talking about solid 3/4 in this thread, or am I wrong?

My aggravation comes with people just blurting out "floating floors are garbage". Compared to what? In what discussion context?

The OP asked what causes one to choose what install method over another, and in comes the chorus of "floating floors suck", and "I hate laminate", etc. 

It's kind of like someone asking when you choose oil or water-based finishes and someone interjecting that pre-finished floors suck.

That's my take anyway.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Which would damage *any wood floor*. Not sure I understand your point.


You did say any wood floor, no reason to get hissy. I'm well aware of the context.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

What about "creaking" noises? We installed a hardwood floating, customer complained, I don't know what the outcome was, but has that noise issue been resolved?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

superseal said:


> You did say any wood floor, no reason to get hissy. I'm well aware of the context.


Not hissy at all. Text is very hard to convey emotion, keep in mind. Apparently everything I type comes out sarcastic or angry lol.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

MIKE ANTONETTI said:


> What about "creaking" noises? We installed a hardwood floating, customer complained, I don't know what the outcome was, but has that noise issue been resolved?


That's almost always an install related issue, Mike. Prep is still required, even more so for floating floors imo. Flat matters. Expansion must be followed as well. There are some floors that the joints creak no matter what you do. Bamboo is usually that way. I actually warn customers of it. 

The reality is, a lot of installers have the attitude that it's a cheap, junk floor so they just slam it in, resulting in a less than optimum performing floor that then gets blamed as being a junk floor. 

I've installed many floaters that, other than sound if you drop something, can't be distinguished from a glued or stapled floor, and have looked brand new years later. I've also installed some that are complete crap. They were coming out of the box too


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

My neighbor had a floating floor put in his dining room, totally sqooshie and hollow in spots. Obviously not a proper prep as we have 3x8 rough sawn joists and they're all over the place.

The last floater I did was a laminate imitation stone with a foam backer...flat substrate and it went down nice, no hollows, squeaks, nothing.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Again apples to oranges comparison. Any floor that can be glued/stapled/floated would be affected the same. We aren't talking about solid 3/4 in this thread, or am I wrong?
> 
> My aggravation comes with people just blurting out "floating floors are garbage". Compared to what? In what discussion context?
> 
> ...


Floating floors are garbage.

Whats up son?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Metro M & L said:


> Floating floors are garbage.
> 
> Whats up son?


Compared to dirt floors they're pretty damned nice. Compared to nasty rental property carpet they're not. Compared to a real poorly installed any other floor they're not.

If I was your son, you'd be old enough to be your own grandpa, and your opinion is worth exactly what I paid for it.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

When you walk on a well beaten and slicked dirt floor there is no comparison. You put your foot on dirt and it FEELS like your on the ground. Way better than some squishy mdf slipping around under your foot.

If I was my own grampa I would induce a cat 5 spermal temporal worm hole and reemerge from my own black assymtope hole just in time to kick yours back to the stone age.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

They do have their place(on floors, not in garbage) I have seen/heard a few. I actually will stop and tap on floors(vinyl as well) to see if their glued down. I know the laminate guy at the shop has been busy the past 10 years and he hates glue.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

There's way more to floating floors than laminate. As a matter of fact, I rarely install laminate anymore, they're isn't hardly a decent manufacturer of it anymore anyway. 

If all you can think of when one says floating floor is mdf cored laminate, it shows your ignorance to the industry more than it does your assumed superiority.

Then again, if all you ever do is dig holes all day with a shovel, I imagine an auger attached to a skid steer would probably look like fool's wizardry to you. 

High end engineered floors can be floated. Vinyl plank can be floated. Cork can be floated. Take your "The only real floor is solid wood" mentality and put in in your back pocket for 20 minutes and learn something, lest you enter a debate you're ill equipped to participate in. No one was talking about laminate. There's your first clue. Free.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

PrecisionFloors said:


> There's way more to floating floors than laminate. As a matter of fact, I rarely install laminate anymore, they're isn't hardly a decent manufacturer of it anymore anyway.
> 
> If all you can think of when one says floating floor is mdf cored laminate, it shows your ignorance to the industry more than it does your assumed superiority.
> 
> ...


If given the choice, I'm choosing solid over engineered every day of the week. Mainly because it's what I know best & have a good understanding. But it's sure nice not having to pack in 1800' of 50- 75# bundles of wood.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

There is a difference between you two. 

Paul, you make lots of money installing floating floors, you give the customer the option.

Metro, I can't prove, but I'm sure you have lost a lot of jobs due to the floating method. I fully understand the value of a solid hardwood install, but affordability combined with decor/aesthetics/current trends brings floating into practicality.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Theres way more dirt than laminate.

Actually, I prefer not to install. I make much better money with less capital, doing sand and finish. In my market real estate is solid. A two bedroom home in many parts of the city is 300k. Im currently sourcing 3/4 solid prefin at 3.60. Decent laminates are 2.5 to 3.5. I charge the same for installation on solid or floating. Typical installation is 400 feet. 

Hardwood floors add between 2 and 5 percent to the value of a home. So a homeowner can save 300 or 400 to install laminate which will leave their home value flat or lower it or install solid and earn .02 x 300k or 6k on the conservative side in a small house in a nice neighborhood. It just doesnt make financial sense. Especially when you point out that a 3/4 solid will last 75 or 100 years and the laminate will go to a landfill in 10.

I may have lost jobs to laminate but my marketing isnt directed towards it. I havent been asked to do a laminate floor since 2010. Im trying to close work where gp is generally 2 to 4k. Laminate work seems like gp is more like 1k per client.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Metro M & L said:


> Theres way more dirt than laminate.
> 
> Actually, I prefer not to install. I make much better money with less capital, doing sand and finish. In my market real estate is solid. A two bedroom home in many parts of the city is 300k. Im currently sourcing 3/4 solid prefin at 3.60. Decent laminates are 2.5 to 3.5. I charge the same for installation on solid or floating. Typical installation is 400 feet.
> 
> Hardwood floors add between 2 and 5 percent to the value of a home. So a homeowner can save 300 or 400 to install laminate which will leave their home value flat or lower it or install solid and earn .02 x 300k or 6k on the conservative side in a small house in a nice neighborhood. It just doesnt make financial sense. Especially when you point out that a 3/4 solid will last 75 or 100 years and the laminate will go to a landfill in 10.


I can't stand all the Sh*tty laminate in these homes. Builders are getting it for an installed cost of $3 a square foot, so the numbers are a little more skewed for new construction, but I still wouldn't touch that stuff with a 10 foot pole. Except when I walk on it in my own house every day


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

Metro- I didn't factor in your location, nor your parameter of product specific product. The different markets do affect what's going down and a need for adaptation and efficiency.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Did I mention that I wasn't talking about laminate floors, I could have sworn I did....

No one is arguing the points about laminate floors being crap compared to solid hardwood. That's a foolish comparison in the first place.

Whatever, choose not to learn anything. It doesn't affect my bank account... 

The original premise of this thread was installation methods and the why's and when's thereof. If you guys can't grasp that and your Pavlovian response to the term floating floors is "Laminate sucks!" I can ****in help you - you're past the point of learning.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

pinwheel said:


> If given the choice, I'm choosing solid over engineered every day of the week. Mainly because it's what I know best & have a good understanding. But it's sure nice not having to pack in 1800' of 50- 75# bundles of wood.


You're absolutely right, given the choice, my own opinion is solid wood unless I'm on a slab. My opinion isn't the one paying the bill in someone else's home though.

Personally I can't figure out the obsession with travertine that seemed to overtake this part of the country a while back. It's a dirty, ugly, hard to clean floor imo. Idon't think it is a terrible choice, i just dont like it. Marble I absolutely love. Different strokes for different folks.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

My brother had Saltillo in Deerfield, that style is dated.

So, for hardwood floating. The designed fold n lock I guess is ok, but for plain tongue and groove which some manufacturers say can also be floated. If it's wood glued, have you seen where the tongue would break and separate? Granted the substrate may not be flat enough, just wondering if you have seen failures.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

MIKE ANTONETTI said:


> My brother had Saltillo in Deerfield, that style is dated.
> 
> So, for hardwood floating. The designed fold n lock I guess is ok, but for plain tongue and groove which some manufacturers say can also be floated. If it's wood glued, have you seen where the tongue would break and separate? Granted the substrate may not be flat enough, just wondering if you have seen failures.


I have not seen any failures in that regard Mike. Moisture, lack of expansion, and improper joint stagger cover 99% of the failures I've fixed. 

The lock and folds are faster to install but I actually prefer a glued t&g myself - less susceptible to surface moisture and they seem to be less sensitive to expansion.

I've done some high end engineered (think full 1/8" or better wear layer and 9-13 ply cores) over very high density underlayment on glass flat slabs that are only very slightly noisier than a glue down. 

It's all in the product, prep, and sound control. The upside is a repair is much easier, as is demo down the road should they remodel. People can say all they want about "real" wood lasting 70 years. Who gives a damn. The majority of my clients are going to change the floor in 10 years or less or sell the property. They want options. I provide them.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

I agree, how is the repair done with all joints glued? Koolglide heat tape?

And you use just exterior grade wood glue? I guess it's not as rigid as I was thinking.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

No, cool glide would fasten the floor to the substrate in that situation. Once you cut out the damaged area leaving about a 1/2" still attached to the t&g, you can almost always break the glue joint loose with a pair of channel locks. The rest of it is standard plank replacement techniques. Re-glue the grooves prior to dropping in the new planks.

I pretty much always have some t&g specific glue on hand but Titebond 2 works great too. I swear the manufacturer's glues all smell like Elmers....


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