# Mike Holmes on homes



## GDFC

jarvis design said:


> Is that you Ron??



uh huh :whistling


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## loneframer

BrianFox said:


> Lone my Azek rep in philly gave me 3 tees and 2 sweathshirts...pm me your address and ill throw em in the mail:thumbup:.
> .


 That's very generous of you Brian, but I won't put you through the trouble.:thumbsup: Your offer is much appreciated. How's things across the river?


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## BrianFox

loneframer said:


> That's very generous of you Brian, but I won't put you through the trouble.:thumbsup: Your offer is much appreciated. How's things across the river?


Bout to settle into a remodel a mile from my house for the next 2 months.
Whats happening there? Huber mansion?


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## mics_54

I think he talks too much.


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## loneframer

BrianFox said:


> Bout to settle into a remodel a mile from my house for the next 2 months.
> Whats happening there? Huber mansion?


 Yup, got a couple days left on the lawnmower shed, then back inside to mount the manifolds for the pex system.:thumbsup: Nice working close to home right?:thumbup:


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## mics_54

I bet that matches the servents quarters


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## Mike Finley

SLSTech said:


> Katoman - thats interesting, down here a GC license allows us to do whatever we want with the exception of Elec, HVAC & Plumbing
> 
> I started taping him about a month and half ago - he makes some great points and I wish more HO's would watch this
> 
> I guess my only issue with the show was one brought up in another thread - where the HO might have only had a 30K budget to start with he comes in and does a 65K job


Yep, you have to wonder about that. The part they leave out is that most likely the dollar amount for the orginal job and the dollar amount for the job Holmes does for them have got to be worlds apart.

But the good thing is, in a TV world filled with shows that stress making 3 designers compete for you landscaping project, or how to fix up a place by sewing slip covers for the dinning room chairs (trading spaces) or how to fix a place for under $1000 or the best ones of all the flip shows where morons buy, spend 5 times their original budget and then just raise the selling price and make a fortune ..

... in that world at least a show like Holmes, his message is their is a right and wrong way to do things and it puts that message into homeowners heads instead of the opposite message which is no matter who you choose, the results will be the same.


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## jhark123

I've seen that show a couple times and I have a couple of beefs with it:

1. I wish Mike would put some blame on the HO when they go with the unlicensed guy that is 1/2 the cost of the rest of the bids. The hack contractors are greedy but these dumb HO's share in that greed.

2. I wish they would inform the viewer that their "redo" would cost twice the original budget if it was done by a reputible contractor.

3. I wish Mike wounldn't make it seem that overbuilding is necessary, I think he does this for effect.


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## BrianFox

loneframer said:


> Yup, got a couple days left on the lawnmower shed, then back inside to mount the manifolds for the pex system.:thumbsup: Nice working close to home right?:thumbup:


Nice. Every once in a while that job crosses my mind and its just mind boggling how indestructable that place will be. I can only imagine the finish carpenters are going to have an easy time with level and square in that whole place.

The manayunk remodel was 45 minutes in the morning and over an hour getting home. I am definitely looking forward to the 5 minute drive to and from every day. My Plan B lumberyard is half mile away also:thumbup:...

BTW, sorry for going off topic.


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## WarnerConstInc.

I can't watch Mike Holmes. The show is too loud. All I can hear is an impact driver screwing everthing together, wtf?


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## BuiltByMAC

Here's some more opinions on the guy...(never a shortage around here!)

ETA: here's another...every year or so, guy's name comes up.

yes, I'm bored on a sunday morning...

Mac


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## Gus Dering

jhark123 said:


> I've seen that show a couple times and I have a couple of beefs with it:
> 
> 1. I wish Mike would put some blame on the HO when they go with the unlicensed guy that is 1/2 the cost of the rest of the bids. The hack contractors are greedy but these dumb HO's share in that greed.
> 
> 2. I wish they would inform the viewer that their "redo" would cost twice the original budget if it was done by a reputible contractor.
> 
> 3. I wish Mike wounldn't make it seem that overbuilding is necessary, I think he does this for effect.


1. I think his message to HO's is clear and strong. Trust your instincts, ask questions and do your homework. I have not found him to be off base with that in the few shows I have watched.

2. The money part is where we distance ourselves from reality with this show. You and I are in total agreement there.

3. I saw him explaining his views on minimum code requirement in a show about a lousy party wall in a condo. He puts the blame on the contractor for not educating the HO on how much an upgrade would cost and the clear benefits it would provide. I can't find fault in that.


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## Winchester

Holmes on Holmes is a good show and I like watching it.

Like everyone I have a couple beefs, but you can't be all things to all people. He could go a little further to please us contractors, but we are not the target audience.

I don't think they make new ones since he is on other shows like Canada's Handyman Superstar Challenge plus he's got a new one that I've never seen called Holmes Inspection or something like that.




BCConstruction said:


> Thats the problem with all the shows on HGTV. They do bathrooms on some shows with a $1000 budget but the shower valve they use cost half that and the tiles costs 4x that. Sam goes for living rooms, kitchens and so on. They never seem to price the work correctly. Then when you goto home owners house they wonder why your price is 10x more expensive for same thing and they say well on HGTV they done it for 10x less than that :blink:


I hate those shows.

For one, they don't take into consideration all of their labour. They only consider cost of materials, which are probably mostly all donated, so they probably don't even consider basic stuff like thinset, grout, glue, screws, and stuff that really adds up. They just count stuff like paint, the vanity, and that lamp in the corner


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## katoman

If a 'Jack of All Trades' tells you 'this is the way your wiring should be'. How much faith will you put in that? I for one, want an electicians opinion.

So when Mike Holmes tells me ' you need to do this or that ' I consider the source. Thanks, but I'll ask a real carpenter.


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## mics_54

> Holmes on Holmes is a good show


Heh..nuff said.


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## bwalley

Gus Dering said:


> I discovered this show this week and started recording all of them.
> 
> I must say it is a breath of fresh air to see a contractor / remodel show that features a "REAL" contractor doing a great job. :clap:
> 
> I have mixed feelings that all he does is fix some of the world's worst remodel work of the previous wanna be contractor though. I wish they could just show him going in and running a smooth job with no emphasis on a nightmare contractor. But I understand how the formula works.
> 
> Seems like he is in Canada somewhere. Are there alot of these kind of situations that need fixing up in the great white north? Seems strange that he can jump from one to another like that.
> 
> Anyway cool show and I love his style. No doubt at all he is in complete and total control of his job. I'll stop short of a man crush but he seems real good.:thumbsup:


I saw one of his shows and some of the work he did, I thought was not the proper way to do it, like using SPF 2x6 studs for a door jamb up against concrete, where I am at, we never have SPF in direct contact with masonry.

He talks a good game though, but IMO he is a glorified handyman with a TV show.


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## Winchester

katoman said:


> If a 'Jack of All Trades' tells you 'this is the way your wiring should be'. How much faith will you put in that? I for one, want an electicians opinion.
> 
> So when Mike Holmes tells me ' you need to do this or that ' I consider the source. Thanks, but I'll ask a real carpenter.


People will trust a home inspector who comes in and tell them "this is the way your wiring should be... this is the way your plumbing should be.... this is the way your..." they trust him.

They aren't always right, but a lot of times they actually are.

As a GC you have to know a lot about a lot of things. You may not know everything, and are always learning, but as a GC I think he knows a lot and does a great job.

Personally, I know a little bit about a lot of things. That is why I hire people who know a lot about a little. A GC needs to be a jack of all trades, but should hire specialists. From what I can see, this is what Mike Holmes does.


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## katoman

Winchester said:


> People will trust a home inspector who comes in and tell them "this is the way your wiring should be... this is the way your plumbing should be.... this is the way your..." they trust him.
> 
> They aren't always right, but a lot of times they actually are.
> 
> As a GC you have to know a lot about a lot of things. You may not know everything, and are always learning, but as a GC I think he knows a lot and does a great job.
> 
> Personally, I know a little bit about a lot of things. That is why I hire people who know a lot about a little. A GC needs to be a jack of all trades, but should hire specialists. From what I can see, this is what Mike Holmes does.


No argument there, just wish he would hire/promote carpentry in the same way he does the other trades.

Falls into that category that 'anyone can be a carpenter' Makes me nuts :furious:


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## bconley

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I can't watch Mike Holmes. The show is too loud. All I can hear is an impact driver screwing everthing together, wtf?


Yeah, they screw together their framing? Is that legal in Canada?
The biggest problem with the with the hacks he cleans up after is not the fact that they are hacks but that they are *ripoffs!*


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## katoman

Let me expand. I, like others, didn't spend 4 yrs apprenticing, and then another 6 yrs ( generally speaking ) perfecting my trade, to watch some jack of all trades represent carpenters.

I have no problem with him being a GC. At that he is fairly knowledgeable, and promotes the right ideas. 

But I find it insulting when I see him swinging his hammer, and he won't even go and write his exams.

He started out in sheet metal work, didn't finish that either. Yup, a jack of all trades, master of none.


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## Winchester

katoman said:


> Let me expand. I, like others, didn't spend 4 yrs apprenticing, and then another 6 yrs ( generally speaking ) perfecting my trade, to watch some jack of all trades represent carpenters.
> 
> I have no problem with him being a GC. At that he is fairly knowledgeable, and promotes the right ideas.
> 
> But I find it insulting when I see him swinging his hammer, and he won't even go and write his exams.
> 
> He started out in sheet metal work, didn't finish that either. Yup, a jack of all trades, master of none.


I am not a carpenter and I often swing a hammer. I do employ carpenter(s), but that doesn't mean I can't swing my hammer around too :clap: Are you sure about the law there, that everyone swinging a hammer has to be a carpenter? You may likely need to have 1 carpenter on the site, but what about apprentices, and helpers, etc

My dad was a contractor and my uncle a builder. I know how to build a deck and renovate a home. I do sometimes have questions, but that's why I employ a carpenter who has 25 years experience.

I agree, it would be helpful if he promoted carpentry, but his target audience is homeowners. They aren't going to notice or care and it is not going to improve his ratings. I expect that the people he has actually doing the work are carpenters.

I can see where you are coming from, as a carpenter, though


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## katoman

Here in Ontario, anyone can do carpentry work other than on a Union Site.

But if the licensing inspector catches you, he'll want to see your C of Q for the trade you are doing. That is in Toronto. The small towns don't have those regulations.

My main point is that he doesn't apply the same rules to carpentry he does to the other trades. Directly or indirectly he is demeaning the trade.

I think his lead guy just got his license, but I'm not sure of that.

What I would like to see is that everyone doing carpentry need to be license, same as plumbers and electricians. One way would be when you go for a permit, you would have to show your license, same as the electricians need to.

I'm just trying to promote carpentry to be viewed in the same high esteem as some of the other trades.


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## IHI

I enjoy watching it and have the DVR set to record each episode, to be honest we sit down as a family to watch it, one reason is so my 8yr old daughter who helps me on projects around the house can see construction on other aspects being done...as properly as they can be on TV, and secondly, my wife now has a much better understanding of why i'm usually so stressed out/have headaches dealing with the chit i have to do to make a living...working backwards all the time before we can start moving forward. It's given her a greater appreciation of what me and the guys do, so for me personally, that is a win since verbally explaining the day, as you all know, does'nt do any justice...now she gets to see what we deal with.

The message of the overall show is a good one i believe, hack and cheap bastages will ultimately not deliver the goods that their low price sounded like it would. HOPEFULY some HO's nationwide have seen and taken mental notes of what could happen...if nothing else, maybe something they've seen on TV will allow them to ask intelligent and pertinant information when screening contracts, we that are good will pass with flying colors since we will have the answers, whereas the hacks will stammer, the HO's should be able to pick up on this, you'd hope.

Besides, for all the haters, lemme ask ya a question....what else is out there TRYING to educate the public we have to deal with? Sure is'nt any programs on TLC or HGTV....so what else is there?....nothing, so even if the persona pizzes ya off, it's better than the alternative- nothing. At least he's making an attempt, i dont give two ****s if he has professional crews come in behind him, I personally dont handle every aspect of a build/reno first hand, i have a crew of professionals I call in when i know they can do the work safer/faster/legally, so throw that pizz ant excuse of why you dont like him right out the window because most of us do the same thing already. 

Like somebody said above, you will never please all the people all the time, none of us will, but at least the guy is trying to make a difference which we should all give him credit for since the more people that watch the show the better chance we have at justifying to homeowners why our bid's will never be the lowball since quality costs money due to product cost and increased installation time.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

IHI said:


> I enjoy watching it and have the DVR set to record each episode, to be honest we sit down as a family to watch it, one reason is so my 8yr old daughter who helps me on projects around the house can see construction on other aspects being done...as properly as they can be on TV, and secondly, my wife now has a much better understanding of why i'm usually so stressed out/have headaches dealing with the chit i have to do to make a living...working backwards all the time before we can start moving forward. It's given her a greater appreciation of what me and the guys do, so for me personally, that is a win since verbally explaining the day, as you all know, does'nt do any justice...now she gets to see what we deal with.
> 
> The message of the overall show is a good one i believe, hack and cheap bastages will ultimately not deliver the goods that their low price sounded like it would. HOPEFULY some HO's nationwide have seen and taken mental notes of what could happen...if nothing else, maybe something they've seen on TV will allow them to ask intelligent and pertinant information when screening contracts, we that are good will pass with flying colors since we will have the answers, whereas the hacks will stammer, the HO's should be able to pick up on this, you'd hope.
> 
> Besides, for all the haters, lemme ask ya a question....what else is out there TRYING to educate the public we have to deal with? Sure is'nt any programs on TLC or HGTV....so what else is there?....nothing, so even if the persona pizzes ya off, it's better than the alternative- nothing. At least he's making an attempt, i dont give two ****s if he has professional crews come in behind him, I personally dont handle every aspect of a build/reno first hand, i have a crew of professionals I call in when i know they can do the work safer/faster/legally, so throw that pizz ant excuse of why you dont like him right out the window because most of us do the same thing already.
> 
> Like somebody said above, you will never please all the people all the time, none of us will, but at least the guy is trying to make a difference which we should all give him credit for since the more people that watch the show the better chance we have at justifying to homeowners why our bid's will never be the lowball since quality costs money due to product cost and increased installation time.


Theres a show in the UK thats called rogue traders thats been on for about 10 years that shows you the mess some companys can leave you in after the job, ripping you of for the job and so on. they even confront the people who done the work asking them why certain bits are the way they are. Great show. 

Check this guy out


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## Heritage

katoman said:


> Here in Ontario, anyone can do carpentry work other than on a Union Site.
> 
> But if the licensing inspector catches you, he'll want to see your C of Q for the trade you are doing. That is in Toronto. The small towns don't have those regulations.
> 
> My main point is that he doesn't apply the same rules to carpentry he does to the other trades. Directly or indirectly he is demeaning the trade.
> 
> I think his lead guy just got his license, but I'm not sure of that.
> 
> What I would like to see is that everyone doing carpentry need to be license, same as plumbers and electricians. One way would be when you go for a permit, you would have to show your license, same as the electricians need to.
> 
> I'm just trying to promote carpentry to be viewed in the same high esteem as some of the other trades.


The Gov't is making strides in that arena. They have approved a New Ontario College of Trades. John Milloy, the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities has been working on this for some time. "The skilled trades are more important to Ontario's future than ever before".

The road to change began in 2008 when the province undertook a Compulsory Certification Review to explore the impact of expanding certification to skilled trades that are currently voluntary (Like Carpentry). 

Of the 140 skilled trades that currently offer apprenticeship training in the province, 21 require compulsory certification.

Laws are changing, at least we can be thankful for that. There is a spotlight on the construction industry right now and I think the Gov't has finally come around to addressing our issues and realizing the impact that our industry has on our economy.


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## Magnettica

The problem I have is with the Holmes on Homes electrician that installs electrical panels horizontally. 

Mike is a great ambassador for the construction industry.


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## Chris G

He's a doorknob. His ego and vanity won't allow him to accept any ideas but his own. I mean, someone on his crew must know that you can't use interior screws on a pt deck in a salt water environment. Trust me this is real. I watched the full episode on TV, and unless they make shiny gold deck screws, that's exactly what he did:

And who builds a railing in such a way that it is guaranteed to collect standing water and rot:


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Chris G said:


> He's a doorknob. His ego and vanity won't allow him to accept any ideas but his own. I mean, someone on his crew must know that you can't use interior screws on a pt deck in a salt water environment. Trust me this is real. I watched the full episode on TV, and unless they make shiny gold deck screws, that's exactly what he did:
> 
> And who builds a railing in such a way that it is guaranteed to collect standing water and rot:


 
Our lowes sells that color exterior screws for decks :thumbsup:


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## JT Wood

can gold screws be used on cedar?


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## IHI

LOL at that Rouge Trader clip:laughing: It's fun to watch that stuff and watch these pricks get caught red handed, just wonder if they have a follow up at the end of the program with charges of fraud and whatever else they could throw at them? that'd also might help some hacks rethink things before they outright screw people.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

IHI said:


> LOL at that Rouge Trader clip:laughing: It's fun to watch that stuff and watch these pricks get caught red handed, just wonder if they have a follow up at the end of the program with charges of fraud and whatever else they could throw at them? that'd also might help some hacks rethink things before they outright screw people.


 
Thats a not so bad one. Some people chase the guy down and try and hit him, Other try and run him over and even seen some attack him with lumps of wood. They catch some dam awful hacks red handed which is great. They catch people doing some nasty stuff. I see one where a guy went for a piss in a storage tank for cold water in a loft. They wire the whole house with cams.


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## kubie

BamBamm5144 said:


> Gus - I have been watching this show for a past few years. I dont believe he has any new ones that come on anymore.
> 
> I am also sure that the homeowners do not foot the bill but the network does. The episode that you mentioned would cost the homeowners at least 50k more than they already put into it.
> 
> I am sure it is like most TV shows - He shows up and talks for awhile and has others do the work, then comes back and does a little but at the end to show how its done.
> 
> We were going to go on a TV show to install a new type of roofing system but the product was not right for that type of roof so we refused to do it. It seems the producers always know best. I am excited to see that episode come out and hear about the future problems with it.
> 
> I do enjoy that he basically pounds the fact into your head that the types of jobs he has to fix are usually those of unlicensed and uninsured companies.


 i think Mike said that they did like 100k work to the home. he used timberstrand for almost everything....studs, headers, plates....now i was told by local yards and suppliers that timberstrand and other brands like it are not structural....maybe i was told wrong. and all that spray foam.....bet the original contractor never said anything about it, only fiberglass. how do you electricians like spray foam? like when the installer runs his spin roller and doesnt see the wire he pushed out with the foam and shreds the wire to shreds. have fun pulling a new wire.....(kind of off topic)


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## chris klee

that was funny. wish more people ripping people off would get caught.


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## neolitic

kubie said:


> ....now i was told by local yards and suppliers that timberstrand and other brands like it are not structural....maybe i was told wrong......


They told you wrong.
There are LVL and LSL studs,
and they are certainly structural. :thumbsup:


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## IHI

neolitic said:


> They told you wrong.
> There are LVL and LSL studs,
> and they are certainly structural. :thumbsup:


And that is why the internet is soo full of ****, people over hear, misunderstand, talk out their azz, post it up and other clueless wanna be idiots read it and think it's true.

Good catch neo.:thumbsup:

Kubie, i'd either clean out your ears or find another yard to deal with if they're that dumb....wow


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## tccoggs

I like Mike and the show, I have probably seen every episode. Whenever this topic comes up, I always hear about the money issue, ie. the client had a $30k budget and Mike spent $65k. I'm sure that the show pays for it, but it would be nice to see the total cost. What should be the message that comes across to homeowners is that at the minimum, your budget for a project needs to be at least suffcient to build to code, if not, its time to scale back the project. Code doesn't mean that anything is done right or well, put it should at least represent that the stucture is safe for people to live in.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

tccoggs said:


> I like Mike and the show, I have probably seen every episode. Whenever this topic comes up, I always hear about the money issue, ie. the client had a $30k budget and Mike spent $65k. I'm sure that the show pays for it, but it would be nice to see the total cost. What should be the message that comes across to homeowners is that at the minimum, your budget for a project needs to be at least suffcient to build to code, if not, its time to scale back the project. Code doesn't mean that anything is done right or well, put it should at least represent that the stucture is safe for people to live in.


 
Thats the problem with codes. I put money down that 90% of the building codes have faults. Just today he had a show where the ceiling joists were to code but had dropped over 1" in 8ft of run. Again thats just prof again that code ain't always right. Venting for plumbing is a stupid code in my eyes also. In the UK there's no codes for venting each waste inlet. You would have one vent to atmosphere on the end run and the rest wouldn't need vents. Never had one case of a dry trap ever. But over here everything has to be vented to atmosphere? There's houses around my house with over 10 vents coming though the roofs. What on earth is that all about!


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## Greg Di

hughjazz said:


> I'm not in love with the guy at all.
> 
> 
> But I don't get the impression he is one of those guys



When he's putting screws into hangers...he is one of those guys...and no, they aren't approved hanger screws either...


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## tccoggs

Greg Di said:


> When he's putting screws into hangers...he is one of those guys...and no, they aren't approved hanger screws either...


 
While I can't say he's using them, Simpson Strong Tie does have screws that have been tested and meet the specification for the hangers:

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/screws-loadrated.asp

I have used them in repairs on old structures where all the banging and vibration might crack the old plaster. Not sure if mike is using them, but them again, the codes in canada might be different.


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## katoman

tccoggs said:


> While I can't say he's using them, Simpson Strong Tie does have screws that have been tested and meet the specification for the hangers:
> 
> http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/screws-loadrated.asp
> 
> I have used them in repairs on old structures where all the banging and vibration might crack the old plaster. Not sure if mike is using them, but them again, the codes in canada might be different.


 
I doubt it, those guys use screws for everything. Must have something to do with the sponsored DeWalt screw drivers. :whistling


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## Five Star

its gonna tough, tonight against axmen , i,ll be flicken back and forth!!


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## WarnerConstInc.

He wears bib over-alls and a freaking wife beater.

He is a gay french canadian, if I ever saw one.


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## Five Star

Wife beater??


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## katoman

All those homes he "fixed" and he's not even a licensed carpenter.

What a joke - can you tell I'm not a fan and not impressed? The only plus 
side is he has helped the public understand that quality costs :thumbsup:


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## WarnerConstInc.

Five Star said:


> Wife beater??


He wears bibs with a wife beater.

Not literally a wife beater.

You are from jersey, you should know what a wife beater is.:laughing:

or fist pump?:shifty::laughing:


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## katoman

WarnerConstInc. said:


> He wears bib over-alls and a freaking wife beater.
> 
> He is a gay french canadian, if I ever saw one.


I don't believe he is french :whistling


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## forsmant

ApgarNJ said:


> I saw that, where he used sill guard but I thought it was because they appeared to be normal studs, not pressure treated in contact with concrete.
> I use blue concrete screws quite often in that sort of situation. The powder actuated guns don't always offer the best connection depending on the concrete mix. the long blue screws really fasten it tight.
> other than that. I use nails for building a wall.



I saw in another episode when the crew was finishing a house in California that putting sill sealer under pressure treated wood to separate it from the concrete was a building code in Canada. I have not verified this but drilling those anchors in is the best way to anchor wood to concrete.


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## ApgarNJ

wife beater! i love it. fist bump blow up.


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## Five Star

I just like the fact that he goes to the extreme and opens up all kind of walls, basements, french drains, roofs for the slightest amout of water!!:thumbup: most of the time hes right though, 

on show he brought in a guy with a thermal image camera, ripped the ladies entire kitchen out, oak floors, etc, and he still couldnt find the leak:no:


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## ApgarNJ

forsmant said:


> I saw in another episode when the crew was finishing a house in California that putting sill sealer under pressure treated wood to separate it from the concrete was a building code in Canada. I have not verified this but drilling those anchors in is the best way to anchor wood to concrete.


depends if you are just anchoring a wall from being kicked out, or actually hanging weight from a wood/concrete connection. 
expansion bolts work too but for bottom plates on wall. i throw in a few powder shots and then blue screws. it's not going anywhere


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## Magnettica

Five Star said:


> I just like the fact that he goes to the extreme and opens up all kind of walls, basements, french drains, roofs for the slightest amout of water!!:thumbup: most of the time hes right though,
> 
> on show he brought in a guy with a thermal image camera, ripped the ladies entire kitchen out, oak floors, etc, and he still couldnt find the leak:no:



The show this morning had two seats in the shower filled with 2" of water a year after a complete gut and remodel. Talk about ---> 

He impresses the hell out of me. 

Does what Mike does even require a carpentry license in the Toronto area?


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## Five Star

Okay Axmen time, And what mikey is gonna rip out :whistling


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## Five Star

Five Star said:


> I just like the fact that he goes to the extreme and opens up all kind of walls, basements, french drains, roofs for the slightest amout of water!!:thumbup: most of the time hes right though,
> 
> on show he brought in a guy with a thermal image camera, ripped the ladies entire kitchen out, oak floors, etc, and he still couldnt find the leak:no:


 
I,ll quote my self :laughing: this is the one with the thermal image guy!! Its a repeat!!


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## katoman

Magnettica said:


> The show this morning had two seats in the shower filled with 2" of water a year after a complete gut and remodel. Talk about --->
> 
> He impresses the hell out of me.
> 
> Does what Mike does even require a carpentry license in the Toronto area?


In the episodes where he was swinging his hammer, yes. On your GC license for Toronto it staes - all work to be done by licensed trades.

So he can be the GC, but not actually do any work. He kept talking about how to make sure you use licensed trades etc. and he has a license in nothing. JOKE.

I was doing a front porch in Toronto, the licensing inspector shows up - asks me for my carpentry license - got it. Then he asks for my alluminum license - got it. He went away happy. How come he never showed up on the Holmes show? 

I think that's why he moved over to home inspections. Think he has his license in that? And yes, one is required.


----------



## ApgarNJ

talk about over regulation! i won't be moving to canada anytime soon to do work up there.
could it also be that he's in the US doing many of these shows? therefore, he can swing a hammer and he's ok. 
no such thing as a GC license here in NJ.
home improvement contractors license or a builders license.


----------



## bwalley

forsmant said:


> I saw in another episode when the crew was finishing a house in California that putting sill sealer under pressure treated wood to separate it from the concrete was a building code in Canada. I have not verified this but drilling those anchors in is the best way to anchor wood to concrete.


Mechanical fasteners are the only way to attach PT to concrete, only a hack would rely on an adhesive.

Does holmes glue PT to concrete without using mechanical fasteners?

If he does, he is a bigger hack than I thought.


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## katoman

ApgarNJ said:


> talk about over regulation! i won't be moving to canada anytime soon to do work up there.
> could it also be that he's in the US doing many of these shows? therefore, he can swing a hammer and he's ok.
> no such thing as a GC license here in NJ.
> home improvement contractors license or a builders license.


Same thing basically.


----------



## Tinstaafl

Magnettica said:


> Tonight's show at 10PM was advertised as a new episode. Apparently someone down at HGTV needs to "make it right!"


Every network gets to say "new" if it's new to that network. 

As for you guys ragging on him for this or that "not how I do it" detail, I'd wager you would fare just as poorly, or worse, if you were to video all of your techniques and present them here. 

I can't think of any other show that has ever come close to what Mike has done to educate consumers regarding the pitfalls of DIY and hack work. Sure, he got paid well for that series (I hope), and yes, it has fluff and nonsense. So what? That's what it takes to keep viewers from flipping channels.

FWIW though, I'm jealous of him too. :laughing:


----------



## bwalley

Tinstaafl said:


> Every network gets to say "new" if it's new to that network.
> 
> As for you guys ragging on him for this or that "not how I do it" detail, I'd wager you would fare just as poorly, or worse, if you were to video all of your techniques and present them here.
> 
> I can't think of any other show that has ever come close to what Mike has done to educate consumers regarding the pitfalls of DIY and hack work. Sure, he got paid well for that series (I hope), and yes, it has fluff and nonsense. So what? That's what it takes to keep viewers from flipping channels.
> 
> FWIW though, I'm jealous of him too. :laughing:


I never saw any hack work on this Old House, I haven't seen Tom Silva or Norm Abrams hack anything, but I have seen holmes hack things.

The husband and wife team Dean and Miriam Johnson are pretty good and they seem more knowledgable than holmes.

The guy made a name for himself and that is great, but he is not the contracting guru he or his followers think he is.


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## Tinstaafl

bwalley said:


> I never saw any hack work on this Old House, I haven't seen Tom Silva or Norm Abrams hack anything, but I have seen holmes hack things.
> 
> The husband and wife team Dean and Miriam Johnson are pretty good and they seem more knowledgable than holmes.


This Old House has a completely different focus. You are comparing kumquats to grapefruits.

I'm not familiar with the Johnsons. Where can I see them?


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## IHI

Greg, I watched that episode yesterday, but let's just say he was covering his azz a bit (along with making a TV show) by ripping up the floor. Honestly, there were how many other contractors on site previously and that was the 3rd floor that buckled in a row. It was all getting tore up and out regardless so is doing some "digging" to see if other hidden issues were part of the problem really a bad thing?? None of the other guys had done research that far, so how they can they with CERTAINTY there was'nt a drainage problem/wash out problem...they could'nt, all they could do is ASSUME, and we all know assumptions have cost alot of people alot of money.

I'm no nutswinger of the show, but compared to what's on TV, at least this show really highlights alot of the things I know we've run across over the years with "good intentions homeowners" and hack contractors. It's a great show for my wife and daughter to watch and it's helped my wife understand my frustrations when i come home flustered at the end of the day after finding many of these types of problems for what initally looked like a "easy repair/redo". It's one thing to listen to me talk about it, but like most women, she needs these visual ques to really understand my plite, and luckily this show really highlights ALOT of what we run into on reno's Downside though, is neither I nor the homeowner have corporate money to be able to dig in and do the $30-50K worth of repairs before we start the original $10K job quoted. Unfortunately budgets in the real world force a compromise since integrity HAS to be addressed first and foremost, and there's been many jobs we never even got to do the work bid originally because we had to use budget money to repair unforseen problem, OR once we uncover REAL problem, homie will get the price to fix it from us, and then just say, I'm sorry, but we cant afford to do it, so we'll have to fix it ourselves:whistling and you know that is'nt happening correctly.:furious:


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## jcalvin

I have been wanting to pull up this thread to knock on Holmes for a couple weeks now. At first I really liked the show and what he was doing as far as scaring HO's away from using unlicensed uninsured. He has gone too far now. He comes into the home and starts picking it apart without fully knowing if there is truely a problem. There was an episode where he noticed a junction box fed with 14/2 and lead out with a 12/2. He immediatley stated that this was an illegal circuit because it was fused with a 20 amp breaker without ever checking the breaker box. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making a junction like that as long as the breaker amperage doesn't exceed the smallest wire in the loop. 

It is not realistic to tear an entire house apart looking for a problem. It takes a much more skilled tradesman to troubleshoot and repair a problem locally than it does to redo the whole project.


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## HomeSealed

Not sure if these points have been made already because I don't feel like reading a novel today, but for one, this guy is waaay too cocky and acts like he knows everything about everything. I could pick apart his window and siding installs, and I'm sure that other pros who have a specialty could do the same (like the electrical guy above). He does a fine job overall, maybe the attitude is just for tv. Secondly, the show does nothing to show the poor decision making of these H.O.'s... You can't tell me that every sob story on the show didn't get quotes from other contractors that cost 2-3x's as much as the hacks that they chose. You aren't a victim! You chose the cheapest bid and you got a hack job! Lesson learned. Lastly, does this guy own stock in a spray foam company or something??? Holy crap, I think this guy goes to sleep and dreams about it. I can imagine visiting his home and seeing furniture made from sprayfoam, etc... Geez... He's like the Willy Wonka of spray foam.


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## bwalley

Mike Holmes is a wannabe contractor that has an act that some people like.


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## Tom M

Imagine if he had to contain lead HAHAHAHAHAH


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## Mike Finley

The moral of the story he presents is -

There is a right way and a wrong way to do construction. 

The moral of the story that every other show presents is -

Do it as cheap as possible with any jack leg who you happen to find and sell the place and make a lot of money, even a hair dresser can do it.

Whether you like him or not, I like the message he is sending to homeowners a lot better.


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## Tom M

I agree with IHI to his credit he went the distance because 3 other contractors didnt. Its tough trouble-shooting. All said & done it look like a water leak from the frig defrosting or dripping. It could have wicked in across the ground but it didnt look convincing. Maybe that Ho isnt so honest. I didnt see any terrible construction. What I did see is an insane open end contract with unlimited money. All said & done he put a slate floor that would never bring the same problem back and was a better choice in the first place even though the floor spec's said its acceptable. Nails through the vapor barrier was bad but the problem area was not evenly spread out. The overalls are tough to watch.


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## fixitbraintree

I always thought that he did the work free


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## IHI

hmmmm, ironic is the term for the day regarding this thread and fixing screw up's. I got a call last week to look at remving a U shaped staircase, completely reframing it all and then doing oak/wrought iron stairs/spindles..simple enough right?

Met today @ 9am with the homies, upon entering the house it was a fricken DIY nightmare, big 2 story house gutted to the studs, insulation with paper in the walls, plastic over the insulation. Floors buckling/heaving at all levels, some drywall installed sparatically. HO plumbing, HO electrical and NO permits pulled for any of this. After investigating the basement to see first and foremost wh the floor is so messed up, well, undersized beams, failing footings, too long of span for floor joists, I counted 12 floor joists completely cut through hanging loose for new plumbing to pass through....12 floor joist hanging in the breeze. I counted 33 4" metal junction boxes screwed to floor joists, INSIDE wall cavities, those are the big ticket items, and so many more smaller electrical infractions because homie did it himself. He was pizzzed because he did'nt get a meter spot and the utility company wont hook up his new panel until he moves the weatherhead to the other side of the house...so he just jumped from the old 60amp to the new 100amp panel with a pieces of welding cable. 

When asked about me doing the work and permits, I just told him I did'nt think this was a job I could do since budget wise we'd have to rip soo much stuff out to fix that we'd burn up any budget he had set aside for the stairs and then some since as it sits, the moment an inspector walks in, most likely they'll red tag the house and deem it inhabitable due to so many major safety infractions; and then i got "the gripe" about building codes are all about the money.

It's definately a house that would be perfect for Mike Holmes LOL!! or extreme home makeover, outside of a match and gasoline, that house has no hope, they took bad and made it worse with good intentions....worst part is he had "buddies that work for XXX, XXX, and XXX construction/electrical/plumbing companies "help him out"

Should've taken pictures, but I did'nt have my camera and my phone woulda took a day to upload all the problems I woulda shot...WOW:furious:


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## bwalley

Mike Finley said:


> The moral of the story he presents is -
> 
> There is a right way and a wrong way to do construction.
> 
> *The moral of the story that every other show presents is -*
> 
> *Do it as cheap as possible with any jack leg who you happen to find and sell the place and make a lot of money, even a hair dresser can do it.*
> 
> Whether you like him or not, I like the message he is sending to homeowners a lot better.


I disagree, This Old House and Hometime have never been about doing it cheap, they have always been about doing it right.


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## Mike Finley

bwalley said:


> I disagree, This Old House and Hometime have never been about doing it cheap, they have always been about doing it right.


True, I have always like hometime since they worked on homes that weren't 300 years old all the time like this old house. :laughing: Old Dean is getting pretty old now, lot of gray hair.


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## Treeandland

I had forgot all about Hometime and saw it the other day. I was trying to remember if he was gray back when I watched it and then figured out holy crap it's a newer episode!
Not a bad show but I can't even hear what he's saying when his assistant is in the picture.


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## ApgarNJ

he used to have a different girl on there with him, but i think he's got some younger girl now. the other one must have gotten too old for him.
hahahaha


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## MacRoadie

This is purely from memory, but I do remember getting a chuckle when he did the house here in So Cal.

The images of Holmes and his crew trying to drive nails were classic. Over and over and over, they all whined about not being able to use screws, and about how inefficient the nailing was. I can still see them bending nail after nail. 

This was particularly ironic in light of his incessant mantra about everything "being to Code". I was hoping that at some point someone would point out to him, or that he would figure out himself, that screws aren't rated for structural value in shear-resisting elements. 

Yes, Simpson makes hangar and SDS screws, but by IRC or IBC (or their predecessor the UBC) requirements, you can't use screws in wall framing. Screw are certainly less likely to withdraw, but their shanks just don't have shear value.

The next time Mike decides to help out in Seismic Zone 4, he might want to more fully understand what "building to code" means.


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## WJTR

*Licensing*

To Katoman, About the licensing of carpenters it's a great idea BUT go to states like florida where the Gc test is very difficult to pass on the first go around and I've seen so much poor workmanship it makes my head spin. And I'm not talking just after hurricanes where it's obvious you have that. Florida enforces that law too and the workmanship is awful. As far as the licensing, there are guys who can pass tests all day long but until the tool belt goes on you don't know real carpenters from guys without a clue.


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## WJTR

*Licensing*

To apgar, Actually there is a license required in NJ. The home improvement contractor license. Requires no felonies and license numbers on trucks, stationery, etc. SUPPOSEDELY a huge fine if caught working without. So the state actually wrote a great law and they DON'T ENFORCE IT. How many trucks of builders and remodelers in nj have you seen with license numbers on it? All they do is if you request a permit app you must show your license. Big deal, the hacks just get the HO to get permits. In some towns they put a note in with permit paperwork warning homeowners they should use licensed contractors anyway.


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## jcalvin

HomeSealed said:


> Lastly, does this guy own stock in a spray foam company or something??? Holy crap, I think this guy goes to sleep and dreams about it. I can imagine visiting his home and seeing furniture made from sprayfoam, etc... Geez... He's like the Willy Wonka of spray foam.


I am terrified of using spray foam. i realize there are different expansion rates but my fear comes froam a real life experience.

I used to build custom boxes and mounts for a car stereo shop. I built a box to hold 8 12" subwoofers that took up the entire back of an F150. After finishing the install, we fired up the stereo and among everything within 5 square miles that rattled, the back of the box was vibrating against the back glass of the pickup. We needed something to fill the void and absorb the pounding. with access back there a major problem, we used like 8 cans of the spray foam. in the winter. The guy came back in the summer laughing his head off. He showed us his truck and I couldn't believe what I saw. The foam had expanded a little more and pushed the back glass out perfectly. Luckily, the foam had adhered to the glass so we were able to cut the foam off and re-install the glass.

I see him spraying around windows and have always wondered how long the windows will open before the foam expands and binds the window, permanatly.


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## katoman

WJTR said:


> To Katoman, About the licensing of carpenters it's a great idea BUT go to states like florida where the Gc test is very difficult to pass on the first go around and I've seen so much poor workmanship it makes my head spin. And I'm not talking just after hurricanes where it's obvious you have that. Florida enforces that law too and the workmanship is awful. As far as the licensing, there are guys who can pass tests all day long but until the tool belt goes on you don't know real carpenters from guys without a clue.


Can't comment on the US. systems, I know each state is different. But up here you need to serve a four year apprenticeship, in school training each year, and on site most of the year.

So the apprentice learns both the book end of the trade, and the hands on stuff under the direction of a 'journeyman' carpenter.

So the idea is that if he can last the four years, and pass all 5 exams, then he will not only have the knowledge of a journeyman carpenter, but also the pride in his accomplishment. This leads in most cases to good work.
This system dates back to the first carpentry training in England, we adopted their system, as did other commonwealth countries. My license is recognized in England and all other commonwealth countries.

I have no idea why the US has not adopted this nation wide, it would definitely be to everyone's advantage, both for the carpenter and the employer.

If I'm not mistaken some States do do it like this, but mostly union work, I think, not positive though.


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## SLSTech

jcalvin said:


> I am terrified of using spray foam. i realize there are different expansion rates but my fear comes froam a real life experience....
> 
> :laughing: ....
> 
> I see him spraying around windows and have always wondered how long the windows will open before the foam expands and binds the window, permanatly.


JC - there is a major difference between the red cans of expanding foam and the minimal expansion foam besides their chemical makeup

The minimal expansion foam reaches its max expansion in just a few minutes & will not continue expanding. The regular red cans of foam can take up to 7 days or slightly longer (in a regular environment) to fully cure and stop expanding. It all comes down to using the right product properly & you won't have an issue.


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## jcalvin

thanks SLS. I am probably so hesitant about the product after being burned by a similar product. I would love to use the stuff especially around windows and doors. Maybe you can help me get over my concern by directing me to a safe product that won't expand to a point binding the fixture.


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## Magnettica

I wish HGTV would quit advertising new episodes of H on H and then show an episode from 5 years ago.


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## Worm Drive

Tinstaafl said:


> I'm not familiar with the Johnsons. Where can I see them?



In 1990.


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## Tinstaafl

> I'm not familiar with the Johnsons. Where can I see them?





Worm Drive said:


> In 1990.


:laughing:

'Scuse me while I fire up my Wayback machine. :thumbsup:


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## Fence

just bought a holmes on holmes magazine. havent read it yet but looks interesting.


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## jfikentscher

They should show what the true cost of the original job was, and then the retail cost of Mike's renovation. Yeah he makes it right but at what cost. Clients watch this and then want it all for a bargain cost. That's what gets most of the show's homeowners in trouble in the first place, they hired the cheapest contractor and wonder why he cuts corners.


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## cwatbay

*I like it and here's why*

I have just started watching Holmes on Homes for the last 3 or 4 months, mostly cus I'm a C10 in CA, and it's been pretty damn slow. But that is beside the point. 

Ok, so Mike's a blow-hard, a lot of stuff is staged, clients don't have to pay for it, he does stuff that may or may not be right cus everyone's got a slightly different way of doing it (while still in code). I really don't care that he's a spokesperson for Home Depot or gets all his stuff for free. 

Here's why I like the show: (mostly saying stuff we can't cus no one believes us - and -- it sounds unprofessional to bad mouth other contractors): 

1) He runs roughshod over cheap ass contractors and unlicensed hacks that not only take off with the money, the job usually has to be torn down and restarted.
2) It shows how gullible and naive HO's are when it comes to hiring a "professional" contractor. They go strictly by price and false promises, and/or, they go with some unknown guy who was recommended by someone else - no background check, no looking at other work, no asking for references
3)It shows how it takes a hell of a lot more work to fix a bad job, rather than doing it right the first time.
4) His lectures on hiring the best contractor you can, how specialists know their job and how to do it right, and that none of this is cheap.

Yes, the message is repetitive. It does get tiring, especially if you watch shows both in the morning and at night. But here's the thing: 


It's the message that is getting out to HO's
It's the showing of pro's at work and what the HO needs to look for
It's the consequences of being a "craigs list" oriented consumer
Regardless of the fact that Mike may or may not be licensed himself, or , the fact that another crew comes in and does all work. Who cares ? Ok, so us legitimate contractors may care about the "real" Mike Holmes and what goes on behind the scenes --- but try telling all that to the HO. They don't care --- they only believe what they see. And, I don't argue with the finished message.


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## ApgarNJ

I became a fan of his on Facebook and wrote on his wall, It's ok to use Nails to frame mike! just use ringshanks. much faster too.

he screws everything, that is so lame.

i also so the other day where a garage was under living space, they tore the drywall down from the ceiling and the garage ceiling was framed down so it wasn't so high leaving a dead space between the living space floor joists and the actual ceiling joists of the garage. he spray foam against the living space but never covered it. that is a no no. any fire entering that area would just bring that house down to the ground.

i'd like to see the video of a house burning to the ground that has spray foam in all the walls and roofs. i bet that is a site to see! talk about acceleration. 

you should see all the people on his FB page that are asking for help with their house.


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## scrapecc

I watched him redo a stoop the other day. Wow. He dug a hole that was 6 feet deep. at least 3 wide and another 5 or six long. Then proceeded to fill it with concrete. What a nightmare thats gonna be. I wonder how long before his "super footing" sinks.


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## JumboJack

scrapecc said:


> I watched him redo a stoop the other day. Wow. He dug a hole that was 6 feet deep. at least 3 wide and another 5 or six long. Then proceeded to fill it with concrete. What a nightmare thats gonna be. I wonder how long before his "super footing" sinks.


I saw that..It was a LOT of crete.


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## scrapecc

With the steps could be 6 to 7 yards.  Not many soils can handle that kind of weight. Lol i was like no way. They are even vibrating it. Why would you do need to consolidate the concrete in that application. 

Anyway I am glad more than one person saw that and raised an eyebrow.


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## Bobby_G

That dude totally stole my look. I've been rocking the coverall + sleeveless shirt look since '86.

Ahh, who am I kidding. There was probably countless before me that did the same thing.


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## sean45

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Bravoooooo
the real world is people go with lowest prices and they do not care about licensing tradesmen to do the job.
and after all he runs a TV show. with lots of $$$$$
Sean


katoman said:


> Don't get me started on Mike. It's a pet peeve of mine.:furious:
> 
> Ok, to be fair, he does fairly good work, uses licensed trades, goes for permits, etc. In other words he runs a legit outfit.
> 
> The biggest plus is that he is getting the word out to the public to not hire these "hacks". On that point, I tip my hat to him.
> 
> He works in the GTA (greater Toronto area) has his own forum, Dewalt loves him, etc. Mike is doing very well promoting Mike.
> 
> Here's my beef - He goes on and on about how important it is to use quality, licensed trades. But he holds no license himself. He is not a licensed carpenter, and actually, he is not allowed to do any work himself.
> 
> He probably has a GC license, which clearly states - all work to be done by licensed trades. That leaves him out!
> 
> So when you see him swinging his hammer, he's breaking the law.
> 
> I went onto his forum and asked about this. Big mistake! They cut me a new one, and wouldn't address the question.
> 
> So here, I'll ask Mike again - If you really know your stuff, go and write your exams Mike. I'm betting you don't pass.


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## sean45

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
%100 agreed
that is first thinking it comes to very tradesmen minds when you watch his show.


jfikentscher said:


> They should show what the true cost of the original job was, and then the retail cost of Mike's renovation. Yeah he makes it right but at what cost. Clients watch this and then want it all for a bargain cost. That's what gets most of the show's homeowners in trouble in the first place, they hired the cheapest contractor and wonder why he cuts corners.


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## within an inch

My very first day on a framing job I asked my boss where my Impact driver & screws are? I told him how are you supposed to fasten the studs to the top & bottom plates? I will never forget the look on his face! lol Lets just say it was a long walk around the job site trying to find the Goddam board stretcher hahaha I caught on real quick. Holmes on homes is fantasy land. Tv will never show how the REAL WORD IS...


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## festerized




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## woody1

Anyone else think it's a little funny that every girl that works for him has a tongue ring? I wonder if they were provided by Dewalt...


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## macc4644

He does an entertaining TV show. No one can be a jack of all trades. It is as you know how you conduct yourself and who you surround yourself with. I see it educating consumers which some trades-people would find insulting and unfortunately he is educating some trades-people which is alarming as well.

I'm not a carpenter but I had seen a show where he was doing underlayment in a basement and it did not appear to be an ideal solution. But we all can nit pick each others work. But it is a decent show. Beats the amateur designer shows where the TV people are screwing up peoples houses.




Greg Di said:


> I dunno, Gus, I've only seen bits and pieces, but what have seen him is do is questionable at times.
> 
> All of those hosts are unwatchable as far as I'm concerned. You can tell when a producer just told them "you need to show the audience how to do this" and it's clear the host themselves have no idea what they are doing.


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## macc4644

Great post..........!




cwatbay said:


> I have just started watching Holmes on Homes for the last 3 or 4 months, mostly cus I'm a C10 in CA, and it's been pretty damn slow. But that is beside the point.
> 
> Ok, so Mike's a blow-hard, a lot of stuff is staged, clients don't have to pay for it, he does stuff that may or may not be right cus everyone's got a slightly different way of doing it (while still in code). I really don't care that he's a spokesperson for Home Depot or gets all his stuff for free.
> 
> Here's why I like the show: (mostly saying stuff we can't cus no one believes us - and -- it sounds unprofessional to bad mouth other contractors):
> 
> 1) He runs roughshod over cheap ass contractors and unlicensed hacks that not only take off with the money, the job usually has to be torn down and restarted.
> 2) It shows how gullible and naive HO's are when it comes to hiring a "professional" contractor. They go strictly by price and false promises, and/or, they go with some unknown guy who was recommended by someone else - no background check, no looking at other work, no asking for references
> 3)It shows how it takes a hell of a lot more work to fix a bad job, rather than doing it right the first time.
> 4) His lectures on hiring the best contractor you can, how specialists know their job and how to do it right, and that none of this is cheap.
> 
> Yes, the message is repetitive. It does get tiring, especially if you watch shows both in the morning and at night. But here's the thing:
> 
> 
> It's the message that is getting out to HO's
> It's the showing of pro's at work and what the HO needs to look for
> It's the consequences of being a "craigs list" oriented consumer
> Regardless of the fact that Mike may or may not be licensed himself, or , the fact that another crew comes in and does all work. Who cares ? Ok, so us legitimate contractors may care about the "real" Mike Holmes and what goes on behind the scenes --- but try telling all that to the HO. They don't care --- they only believe what they see. And, I don't argue with the finished message.


----------



## Bastien1337

BCConstruction said:


> Theres a show in the UK thats called rogue traders thats been on for about 10 years that shows you the mess some companys can leave you in after the job, ripping you of for the job and so on. they even confront the people who done the work asking them why certain bits are the way they are. Great show.
> 
> Check this guy out


I know is old, but I watched this video and I was so shocked. Like The stuff this guy did was unbelievable. I hope he gets whats coming to him. The end was priceless, he knew he'd been had and just booked it didnt even try to explain himself. lol


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## Bastien1337

I wish I was part of the forum when this conversation was new. There is so much I want to talk about but it feels irreverent now. most of it has been said in one way or the other.

The only thing I will comment on is the Licensing issue. I was apart of the the apprenticeship program in Toronto, I had done my pre-apprenticeship which gave me a by for basic. I could go straight to intermediate in the local 27 carpenters union. I worked for the Union for awhile. Now maybe it was different in the past or you needed to be lucky, But unless you felt like doing scaffolding or form work the rest of your life there is nothing to learn doing the apprenticeship through the union it is junk!

I was stuck working for or with yo-yos and it wast until a buddy approached me to work with a real contractor that I actually started to learn true carpentry/home remodeling. Which is what I wanted to get into so I said see-ya-later to the union. I believe that the Local 27 is very disillusioning, It is a deterrent for a lot of young aspiring trades people once they see the difference between what they are learning and what work there actually is to do. 

I have a friend who finished his 4 year apprenticeship and I wouldn't trust him to build me a wall let alone take on a renovation or new home build. That has more to do with the Unions focus. It is obsolete, they dont give a heck about what you know or what you can do. Its a business, pay your union dues and STFU. If you get to shoot trim for a day well hey great. 

There are thousands of Licensed carpenters in Toronto that will click together some scaffolding for you quick fast, but actual carpentry forget about it.


----------

