# Ceramic Tile Over Vynl over Concrete



## eagleandbaby (Oct 13, 2007)

I have a question about the proper way, or if you should, install ceramic tile on top of vinyl that is on top of concrete. 

This is in a bathroom. About a 2' x 3' section of the vinyl was removed. It had asbestos so I wanted to see if we could lay it right over the vinyl. 

Thanks


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## CCSowner (Nov 9, 2007)

I would pull the vinyl.



eagleandbaby said:


> I have a question about the proper way, or if you should, install ceramic tile on top of vinyl that is on top of concrete.
> 
> This is in a bathroom. About a 2' x 3' section of the vinyl was removed. It had asbestos so I wanted to see if we could lay it right over the vinyl.
> 
> Thanks


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## eagleandbaby (Oct 13, 2007)

CCSowner said:


> I would pull the vinyl.


 
Thanks. Is there any other way becasue it has asbestos?


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## MattCoops (Apr 7, 2006)

No.
Pull it yourself or have a company that handles asbestos do it for you.

How do you know it contains asbestos?

Is it in tile form? If so, what size are they?


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## eagleandbaby (Oct 13, 2007)

Thanks. I am calling the customer back to confirm. I know that asbestos tile is a certain size. The HO said the midigators said it has asbestos. 

It was a water damage claim and this is a small part of the job that I should have paid more attention to now it is the last thing and I need to schedule it. 

I don’t believe the tile is on well and I know the black adhesive has asbestos. I just wanted to see if there was any other way someone might know to install the tile. 

Thanks again i appreciate it.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Whenever asbestos vinyl is involved the "tear it out, it's the right way" goes out the window. It's always better to remove vinyl and tile to the slab, but that doesn't mean you can't tile over the vinyl and still have a good installation. It just gets a little more difficult cause now you are dealing with evaluating the vinyls condition in regard to how well it is adhered to the slab. If it's so well adhered that it is quite a chore to get it off and it leaves lots of pieces behind that have to be scraped that is a really good indicator that you could tile over it an not have any problems.

The trade off of dealing with asbestos is plenty justification to tile over it if you can in my opinion.

The issue with tiling over the vinyl, the long and short of it is your tiles adhesion is only as good as what it is adheared to. So obviously if you are thinsetting it to the slab that is better than to a chunk of vinyl that might release itself later. But like I said it all depends on the adhesion. Super good bonded vinyl can be tiled over with minimal risks.


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## eagleandbaby (Oct 13, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Whenever asbestos vinyl is involved the "tear it out, it's the right way" goes out the window. It's always better to remove vinyl and tile to the slab, but that doesn't mean you can't tile over the vinyl and still have a good installation. It just gets a little more difficult cause now you are dealing with evaluating the vinyls condition in regard to how well it is adhered to the slab. If it's so well adhered that it is quite a chore to get it off and it leaves lots of pieces behind that have to be scraped that is a really good indicator that you could tile over it an not have any problems.
> 
> The trade off of dealing with asbestos is plenty justification to tile over it if you can in my opinion.
> 
> The issue with tiling over the vinyl, the long and short of it is your tiles adhesion is only as good as what it is adheared to. So obviously if you are thinsetting it to the slab that is better than to a chunk of vinyl that might release itself later. But like I said it all depends on the adhesion. Super good bonded vinyl can be tiled over with minimal risks.


Thanks Mike.


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## MattCoops (Apr 7, 2006)

TCA does not approve of tile installation over vinyl or wood.
They pretty much 'govern' the tile industry.

There are companies that specialize in removal of asbestos. Use them.
Or at least have them tell you if there is even asbestos there.
If it's an insurance job I'm sure the insurance company is willing to pay for the removal.



> The issue with tiling over the vinyl, the long and short of it is your tiles adhesion is only as good as what it is adheared to. So obviously if you are thinsetting it to the slab that is better than to a chunk of vinyl that might release itself later. But like I said it all depends on the adhesion. Super good bonded vinyl can be tiled over with minimal *risks*.


Exactly. You're taking a risk. So why would you want to risk it when you can do it right the first time.


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## eagleandbaby (Oct 13, 2007)

MattCoops said:


> TCA does not approve of tile installation over vinyl or wood.
> They pretty much 'govern' the tile industry.
> 
> There are companies that specialize in removal of asbestos. Use them.
> ...


Thanks


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

First, I'm going to say this-- The thinset bond is only as good as the material the thinset bonds the tile to. That being said, this is copied and pasted from my site's flooring page:



> This is a subject that's very hotly debated within the industry. It seems every manufacturer has a thinset that they say can be used over resilient flooring (sheet vinyl) or vinyl tile. The problem with that is twofold. With all the different types of vinyl flooring out now, it's tough to know which ones can, and which ones can't be tiled over. Cushioned vinyl's are out. They can compress, causing voids under the tile, ultimately causing failure. Also, not all sheet vinyl is glued solid to the floor. A lot of times, vinyl installers will only glue the edges and spot glue in the center, and if you thinset the tile to it, it won't stay very long. In my opinion, vinyl tiles are out, as well, due to the fact that the thinset bond is only as good as the bond of the surface under it, and I've seen vinyl tiles ( especially peel and stick) let go way too easily. The same is also true for sheet vinyl. The second problem with tiling over vinyl is the underlayments used for vinyl installation. Normally, in woodframe construction, there are one of several underlayments used-- luan, 1/4" particle board, 1/4" plywood, and sometimes even MDF (medium density fiberboard). ANY of those in a tile subfloor is a guaranteed failure. 1/4" plywood has a nasty habit of delaminating (the layers come apart). Luan has the same problem, plus it can compress to 1/2 its original thickness from normal residential foot traffic (I've seen this happen). Particle board (as well as MDF), just from humidity, can expand enough to pop tile loose. Any of those can cause failure, and unless you pull the vinyl, you don't know for sure whether the vinyl installer just went over the existing subfloor, or added one of the underlayments mentioned. All in all, it's an extremely risky installation, and my question is why, when spending the money it costs for a tile installation, would you want to gamble on it?


http://www.creativeceramicandmarble.com/floors.htm


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

MattCoops said:


> TCA does not approve of tile installation over vinyl or wood.


Does not approve is rather... um... misleading? Would that be a good description?



> From the TCA or better known as TCNA - Tile Council of North America
> http://www.tileusa.com/tileovervinyl_faq.htm
> 
> *Can I tile over vinyl?* We are often asked if it is OK to tile over sheet vinyl. The answer requires more than a simple yes or no.
> ...


Don't get me wrong, the 100% best practice would be when it doubt tear it out. But not tearing it out is not wrong in all circumstances. Especially when known asbestos is involved. The #1 method recommended in dealing with asbestos involves not disturbing it and encapsulating it.

You would not be wrong for following Matts recomendation of tearing it out, but you wouldn't be wrong for not tearing it out either. (Provided the circumstances are explored and are determined that you can get a proper installation over the vinyl.)


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## Taranis (Feb 23, 2007)

I agree with Mike. Where there is asbestos and will cost the client a fortune to get specialists in then they will look at other avenues. What can they do other than lift the tiles. 
You have to look at each case individually. 
Here, it is a small area so pro rata too expensive to lift. 
Domestic, so will not have a lot of wear and tear.
Concrete subfloor, so no movement to displace the tiles.
Tiles stuck like sh*t to a blanket, so torture to lift anyway.
Yes, the proper way would be to lift the tiles but not in this case. Find a suitable adhesive for non-porous subfloor and use that.
BTW it is not good practice to lay vinyl over vinyl but sometimes due to constraints of time, cost, damage to subfloor this is carried out. So much so there are underlayment S/L screeds that have been formulated to go over existing vinyl to fit new.
We have used it in the past specifically in schools where we can lay screed and fit vinyl over the weekend. And do large enough areas to make it worthwhile to us and the client.
3 were done 6 years ago and still the vinyl is sitting there not lifting.
All dependant on how well the existing vinyl is adhered, as MIke says.
This is where experience comes into it.
Do it, works, do it again (where approriate)
Do it, failure, learn and do it differently next time.


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