# shower and moisture barrier



## tazmanian (Jul 22, 2010)

doing another bathroom remodel...question is in the shower if it is not a shared wall in the town house or outside wall - do i need to or should i put up the plastic moisture barrier or is it not needed????? i am thinking it is not needed since there is no change in temperature therefore no condensation.....tell me ?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

IMO a shower should be waterproofed. Once waterproofed, that acts as a vapor barrier so no need for one behind the wall board. 

If you don't waterproof (shame on you), you need a vapor barrier behind the wall board.


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## tazmanian (Jul 22, 2010)

oh boi do we water proof, not only with the thinset in the joints and corners....but with waterproof rubber application that goes on like paint....not only water proof but flood proof!!!! Boo rah:thumbsup:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Well depending what the rubber application is or what you actually use, you would not need a vapor barrier behind the wall board.


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

Yes, creating a vapor barrier is essential in any indoor application to protect the framing from moisture which can lead to rot, mold or if you want to get really obscure, providing moisture for a termite colony. I assume you're talking about Redgard when you're talking about the sealant that paints on. I've known some contractors to use Denshield with silicone on the seams and screw heads, which also works, because Denshield is a vapor barrier. If using wonderboard (ugh) or hardibacker, you need to either put poly up behind it or use Kerdi over it. Kerdi is better, but it's atrociously expensive, and, in my opinion, a bit overkill for a typical shower.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Remodelor said:


> in my opinion, a bit overkill for a typical shower.


That mentality right there is why I will be in the shower remodeling business for a long time.


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## ROVACON (Apr 19, 2010)

I think I would spend the money for the KERDI and know that my shower will out live the home owner. That's just me anyway :w00t:

Now if I could just get some KERDI bed sheets for the kids while they are potty training. Hmmmm help me out here Angus. I could be on to something! :laughing:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Hydro Ban the mattress :whistling


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## ROVACON (Apr 19, 2010)

Angus are you going to the blue side?!?! I might give the Hydroban a try next time. Never used it before. Its always been the KERDI on the walls and DITRA on the floors.

Ok...Hijacking the thread now. Angus, have you used the DURAL floor membrane yet? I stumbled upon it on a tile distributors website a few months back. Have done some reading on it. Seems to have a mesh on top to grab the thinset better than the voids of the DITRA.

Granted I only do about 6-8 Bathroom remodels a year and I have a set system for doing them. But, I am always looking for ways to improve through new products.


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

angus242 said:


> That mentality right there is why I will be in the shower remodeling business for a long time.


Because all non-Kerdi shower installations are pure hackwork or because not using top-of-the-line products and materials is always going to cause problems down the road? I like Kerdi, but I hardly think it's the end all be all for tile installation. I've used it before for custom pans and showers with benches in them, and think it's a wonderful product for those kinds of difficult applications with lots of corners and where gravity is constantly driving the water down. I will use it again too, but for a basic shower wall over a prefab pvc pan, I don't see the walls undergoing enough stress to justify the extra few hundred dollars when other methods can accomplish the same thing for less. Maybe I'm wrong and my showers will fail because I foolishly tried to save money. It's not only so I can get the job or put money in my pockets, but I honestly try to use my discretion and not sell them something I don't think they needed for their given application.

I hope this clarifies my comment.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Remodelor said:


> Because all non-Kerdi shower installations are pure hackwork or because not using top-of-the-line products and materials is always going to cause problems down the road? I like Kerdi, but I hardly think it's the end all be all for tile installation. I've used it before for custom pans and showers with benches in them, and think it's a wonderful product for those kinds of difficult applications with lots of corners and where gravity is constantly driving the water down. I will use it again too, but for a basic shower wall over a prefab pvc pan, I don't see the walls undergoing enough stress to justify the extra few hundred dollars when other methods can accomplish the same thing for less. Maybe I'm wrong and my showers will fail because I foolishly tried to save money. It's not only so I can get the job or put money in my pockets, but I honestly try to use my discretion and not sell them something I don't think they needed for their given application.
> 
> I hope this clarifies my comment.


_I never mentioned Kerdi._

I'm talking about waterproofing, period. If a wet location isn't waterproofed, the installer has done an injustice, IMO. In the big picture, adding waterproofing is anything but ridiculous. It's minimal and will add decades to the life of your bath. You cannot put a price tag on that.

And for the record, Kerdi is not "atrociously expensive". Depending on what method you're comparing it to, you must take into account the labor and material costs to do a full side-by-side comparison. Some materials might be cheaper but require more labor. Obviously, some are more expensive but install much quicker.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I started a shower repair yesterday. It was correctly done "the old fashioned way"

That is to say - rubber pan, cement board over the pan, then the tile.

Guess what? Water goes through the grout on the floor, is sucked up into the cement board, over and behind the rubber membrane, and leaked through to the ceiling below. There were no holes in the pan, and was a nice looking, pro install. Just the wrong system.

Solution - tear it out, install kerdi, and epoxy grout. 

I'm a schluter fan, but any quality waterproofing system is essential. How else can you provide a realiable job to the customer and of course warranty it?

Personaly, I tell my customer it will be schluter and epoxy grout or get someone else to do the job. Never been turned down yet.


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

angus242 said:


> _I never mentioned Kerdi._
> 
> I'm talking about waterproofing, period. If a wet location isn't waterproofed, the installer has done an injustice, IMO. In the big picture, adding waterproofing is anything but ridiculous. It's minimal and will add decades to the life of your bath. You cannot put a price tag on that.
> 
> And for the record, Kerdi is not "atrociously expensive". Depending on what method you're comparing it to, you must take into account the labor and material costs to do a full side-by-side comparison. Some materials might be cheaper but require more labor. Obviously, some are more expensive but install much quicker.


And I didn't say don't waterproof. Your comment smugly suggested that I had a poor attitude towards my profession, and the overkill comment I made was pertaining to Kerdi. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I do feel like my character is allowed a rebuttal after a condescending remark like that. Also, I will concede that you are right that it's not _atrociously_ expensive, and that it was an exaggeration on my part.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Remodelor said:


> And I didn't say don't waterproof. Your comment smugly suggested that I had a poor attitude towards my profession, and the overkill comment I made was pertaining to Kerdi. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I do feel like my character is allowed a rebuttal after a condescending remark like that. Also, I will concede that you are right that it's not _atrociously_ expensive, and that it was an exaggeration on my part.


Dude, get over it. If you think I'm going to spend any of my time here personally attacking someone, you are thinking with vanity. You made a general statement, as did I. 

As you're relatively new here, I won't expect you to understand how many low post count folks come here, make general statements and never return. Kudos to you for actually participating beyond the first comment. But until we understand your point of view, comments made are just opinions about a typed topic. I don't waste my time by going after someone personally.


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

angus242 said:


> Dude, get over it. If you think I'm going to spend any of my time here personally attacking someone, you are thinking with vanity. You made a general statement, as did I.
> 
> As you're relatively new here, I won't expect you to understand how many low post count folks come here, make general statements and never return. Kudos to you for actually participating beyond the first comment. But until we understand your point of view, comments made are just opinions about a typed topic. I don't waste my time by going after someone personally.


You win.


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## phil0623 (Jan 5, 2011)

Mud pans never die!!!!!!!!!!!! well mine live.


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## boscobuilder (Jan 6, 2011)

angus242 said:


> IMO a shower should be waterproofed. Once waterproofed, that acts as a vapor barrier so no need for one behind the wall board.
> 
> If you don't waterproof (shame on you), you need a vapor barrier behind the wall board.


Guess it really depends on what material is being used? For all tile we usually use hardibacker or permabase with a water membrane painted on top for waterproof. 

As for cultured-marble any moisture resistant sheetrock should do the trick. 

I also let my tile contractor install my shower pan the day he's ready start. I use rubber water barrier material which overlaps the shower curb and runs up 15"-18" up the shower walls (behind the backer board, of course)


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Any waterproofing is better than none....

but

The idea of keeping moisture from penetrating the substrate is _WAY _better then allowing it to penetrate _then _having to deal with it. 

Typical mud pan with preslope, membrane, mud bed and CBU with vapor barriers behind them are antiquated compared to using some sort of membrane to keep the moisture from getting into those surfaces.


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