# should I be worried?



## Wood O-K (Jun 26, 2013)

Hello,

Well that went terrible

Client already had their mind made up. 

Won`t pay

Says take me to court if you want.

Thanks for all the advice from everyone.:thumbup:


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## Frank5 (Aug 12, 2012)

He can not pay you.... It sounds like the client thinks you are ripping him off and he wants his buddy to give him a better deal. Which would explain why he doesn't want you around. 

Really though, if the guy doesn't want you to come around and work, don't go. Talk it over with your partner and have him do the rest. Or, just tell him to have one of the other 3 contractors finish the work if that is what he wants. Tell him you're still owed your money either way, you did have a contract, and you presented him with the change order. 

I would make sure if you stay away from your meeting, your partner takes all the paper work/change orders showing the initial cost and the new cost of the changes the client wants. That way at least you're covered from a legal standpoint of the client knowing what is owed to you so far.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Wood O-K said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> ...We carry on and re-sheet the sub-floor at which time the client decides that he wants the shower to be six time the size of tile work, two half walls and a seat. O-K we tell him that will cost more and he tells us that we'll just figure it out at the end of the job....


Couldn't you give him a heads up of about how much more the extras were going to cost? As a businessman (or woman) you should have a good grasp of your expenses, so that you can shoot a ballpark number,from the hip.


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## Wood O-K (Jun 26, 2013)

flashheatingand said:


> Couldn't you give him a heads up of about how much more the extras were going to cost? As a businessman (or woman) you should have a good grasp of your expenses, so that you can shoot a ballpark number,from the hip.


I wanted to give him a number sooner but my partner had his own sticker shock about the change order and it took him a week to get his head around it.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Have fun with this one...be sure to keep us updated


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## JF1 (Aug 22, 2013)

If nothing else you've learned the lesson that you get a signed AND PAID FOR C/O BEFORE any additional work is done. ALWAYS...unless you're not afraid of eating the cost yourself.


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## Wood O-K (Jun 26, 2013)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Have fun with this one...be sure to keep us updated


will do the meet is on monday


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

The words Change Order should always be accompanied by 100% payment due if job has already started to keep flow going...

Why in the world you continue to work WITHOUT coming to terms on the changes BEFORE you lift a hammer is beyond me. This is an example of why you should never do this... now instead of the customer having sticker shock BEFORE you put money and labor out, now he can come up with sorts of reasons why the work you've performed is sub-standard...

Have all your ducks in a row paperwork-wise (i.e. - timelines, inspections, original costs of the tile work extrapolated out to 6x the size, etc.)... about all you can do...

HUGE mistake for your partner to go and not you (you know, the guy in charge of the work)... customer can say anything to your partner without contest to wrangle un-warranted discounts... your partner, if he is a partner, should make sure you at that meeting...

Best of luck... 8^)


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## Wood O-K (Jun 26, 2013)

We both thought that it would be a huge mistake of I didn't go. 
So what do we do then if the client refuses to have me there at the meeting?


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## sledhead54 (Mar 16, 2013)

I don't see this going well at all. Starting today you're going to want to go over the original contract with a fine tooth comb and ask an attorney what your options really are just to cover YOUrself. Your partner can do what he wants and hopefully he's got your back, but you better be one step ahead. Hopefully the stop loss is at you paying for the cost of change order and nothing beyond that because that could happen. This kind of situation is when being the employee is better.


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## Wood O-K (Jun 26, 2013)

So we eat the cost on the changes and finish the bath at the original cost and hope to get paid?
Or we walk away with nothing but a bill from someone else who finished it?
Either way I don't see it going/ending well.
Going to try to find a way to make it work without lawyers and without loss of funds.
Just have no idea how that is going to happen. 
Not even a glimmer of hope in my mind:-(


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## FlyFishRI (Aug 17, 2013)

Pictures? I am always curious what the work looks like when I read these posts. 

Not saying you did hack work, but obviously no one will come online to admit to doing crap work so I am always curios what the customer might actually be seeing wrong.


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

I always go over changes that will affect price by a large % and explain the additional costs before we do anything. In the past when people question things I write things down line by line, explain the time and additional costs associate with them. 
"Well Mr. XYZ, we had originally planned to just pull the drop in shower, install mud bed, rock walls, kerdi, change plumbing and tile. Overall this would have been about 6 days start to finish. Your request was to knock out the wall, add a knee wall, add this drain, this new valve with diverter...etc. "
Some people are unreasonable douches and if that is who you are dealing with you are in for a battle. Most people however are of the crowd that believes every contractor is out to get them for every penny they can while doing the least amount of work, some who have been previously screwed over. Homeowners usually have no clue how long things take and how small changes can change time in a big way. Perhaps if you take note of all the changes and attempt to explain them line by line all while staying very cool and acting genuinely concerned it may get you moving in the right direction. Good luck, keep us posted.


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## Wood O-K (Jun 26, 2013)

Sorry no pictures my partner has them. 
Client said other contractors complained about the pocket door installation, but I do know that it didn't close after the tile went in. 
That is a simple adjustment.
The clients loved me said I did fabulous work. 
They hated the plumber. But who wouldn't hate someone who stepped thru a stucco ceiling, even if it was an accident. which it was.
And yes we fixed the ceiling just needs to be painted which will be done when/if we paint the bathroom.


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

AND, just another great example why MOST partnerships don't work out.....

You better be considering what to do about THAT angle of this situation too!


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## Wood O-K (Jun 26, 2013)

SuperiorHIP said:


> I always go over changes that will affect price by a large % and explain the additional costs before we do anything. In the past when people question things I write things down line by line, explain the time and additional costs associate with them.
> "Well Mr. XYZ, we had originally planned to just pull the drop in shower, install mud bed, rock walls, kerdi, change plumbing and tile. Overall this would have been about 6 days start to finish. Your request was to knock out the wall, add a knee wall, add this drain, this new valve with diverter...etc. "
> Some people are unreasonable douches and if that is who you are dealing with you are in for a battle. Most people however are of the crowd that believes every contractor is out to get them for every penny they can while doing the least amount of work, some who have been previously screwed over. Homeowners usually have no clue how long things take and how small changes can change time in a big way. Perhaps if you take note of all the changes and attempt to explain them line by line all while staying very cool and acting genuinely concerned it may get you moving in the right direction. Good luck, keep us posted.


I do know that they have had a bad contractor in before to do their foyer in travertine tile. The guy put down schluter under the tile and there is a hairline crack directly above the steel beam in the basement. I'm not an expert tile guy but I thought that product was only for ceramic, or porcelain tile. Oh and he put a couple of spindles in the tiles and the rest in the edge where the bullnose meets the tile. Solution would of been to custom make a thicker piece of noseing install it first then tile.


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## Wood O-K (Jun 26, 2013)

FlyFishRI said:


> Pictures? I am always curious what the work looks like when I read these posts.
> 
> Not saying you did hack work, but obviously no one will come online to admit to doing crap work so I am always curios what the customer might actually be seeing wrong.


I will try to get pictures if i'm allowed to come to the party. They will be of my bathroom work, and maybe a couple of the other guys foyer work.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Wood O-K said:


> So we eat the cost on the changes and finish the bath at the original cost and hope to get paid?
> Or we walk away with nothing but a bill from someone else who finished it?
> Either way I don't see it going/ending well.
> Going to try to find a way to make it work without lawyers and without loss of funds.
> ...


No, you get all your paperwork together and you meet to discuss your pricing. If they are getting 6X the shower, show the original pricing and show how the 6X plays out on paper. EXPLAIN your pricing. If he didn't complain about the original price, how can he complain about the price for 6X the shower? Explain that it is a good thing that we didn't wait until the end to sort out the Change Order. 

Miscommunications happen sometimes during the course of a job, but today is the day we get everyone on the same page so the project can move forward. 

YOU should be running this meeting with your partner backing you up as you go along... for that to happen you both need to be of the same mind as it relates to pricing, the management of the project, etc... so you should meet together to go over everything. This is the time to address any ambiguities...

Be sure to use the paperwork you have accumulated (i.e. - inspections, contract, receipts, etc.) to make your case. It's one thing to have another contractor say they would do something different but it is another thing altogether to point to a passed-inspection and say that it is to industry standards... because that is what a judge would do...

If you go in with a spirit of weakness instead of one of confidence in your position, it will show. That said, don't confuse confidence with arrogance.

Stay calm at all times, don't raise your voice, and politely explain your position. Even if they raise their voice, be patient, let them have their hissy-fit and just walk them through it...

Be sure to say "our" (meaning you and your partner)...

Let us know how it goes... Best of Luck.... 8^)


P.S. - if they are unreasonable and don't want to move forward, be sure to let them know that in that decision you will have no choice but to place a lien on their home. and that your suppliers will most likely follow suit (if you have anything on account) until the matter is resolved. It's not the course of action you want to take, but the one you are being forced to take.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Wood O-K said:


> I will try to get pictures if i'm allowed to come to the party. They will be of my bathroom work, and maybe a couple of the other guys foyer work.


There is no "if I am allowed to come to the party"... Your partner should make this very clear... He should tell them how can he address any of their concerns without having you there? He should also reinforce that you are a reasonable guy and that you both just want to resolve the situation and move forward...


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Overall good advice from KAP. Change orders are the deal, though; if you don't have them you don't have much to stand on. Chase that other plumber or contractor out of there - private, personal conversation, about the consequences of interfering in your contractual relationship with a homeowner.


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

flashheatingand said:


> In regards to the extras, what will he be willing to pay. Court battles, can take forever, and it seems as though half of the time, people don't get their money anyways. Can't you settle with something.


Sometimes. The guy refusing to pay, is hoping you will offer to settle out of court, for 30 cents on the dollar. It was their plan all along.


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## Wood O-K (Jun 26, 2013)

Inner10 said:


> No...he is just dealing with your run of the mill ******* and didn't take the necessary steps to not get burned.


Bulls eye


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## Wood O-K (Jun 26, 2013)

flashheatingand said:


> In regards to the extras, what will he be willing to pay. Court battles, can take forever, and it seems as though half of the time, people don't get their money anyways. Can't you settle with something.


tried to go that route, nobody wins except the lawyers in court.
They said it should only be 2k


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

Wood O-K said:


> tried to go that route, nobody wins except the lawyers in court.
> They said it should only be 2k


Wow, 20 cents on the dollar.


Now the big question. Did your partner give him a really low price for the original work.


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## Wood O-K (Jun 26, 2013)

beenthere said:


> Wow, 20 cents on the dollar.
> 
> 
> Now the big question. Did your partner give him a really low price for the original work.


nope it was a fair price for what the scope of work was, Basic remodel no high end finishes. The only problem was that they pulled the old bait and switch


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Did you set up a progression payments schedual in the contract.....:blink:





B,


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## Wood O-K (Jun 26, 2013)

PrestigeR&D said:


> Did you set up a progression payments schedual in the contract.....:blink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


negative


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