# Take the Money and RUN



## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm sure I'd be much better off if I could only shake that pesky thing known as ethics.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Ted

I enjoy your posts but this one confuses me, but only a little.

If you are not getting thrown a bone on the job, then I think it was good that your friend kept you in the loop for your long time client. Why are you upset that the job may not come to fruition? It sound like you sent a good guy out there that dug in and got to the root of things.

But, when you say that you only overheard that solving the drafts, rather than simply wanting more insulation was the goal then you are clear because your opinion wasn't asked.

Sort of like the occasional time I am called to replace a melted circuit breaker. I won't just replace it. I will tell the client I need to find out why it melted. If they refuse, so do I.

Very conflicted with the thread title as well.:blink:


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Very good points from everyone so far. :thumbsup: Too many to mention.. too many to quote... but good reading nevertheless. 

So at the end of the day it was bust because nobody really got what they wanted. Both guys really wanted the job but they want to do it THEIR way and on their terms. It probably wouldn't have irked me so much if either one of them said, "I pass on this one." or "This isn't the right project for me." but both guys felt as if they were owed the job because they were trying to do what they thought was the right thing. Even if they made a recommendation to strip out the old insulation and start from scratch, the customer probably would have accepted it because that would have been within the boundaries of the request.

I've learned that you just can't save people from themselves even if you know what's better for them than they do. It's like if you do something that's bass-ackwards to the customer's desires and they are happy, they'll keep calling you... which is probably the reason why hacks seem to do relatively well. 

First thing in the morning I am going to start looking for some hacks on Craigslist. At least they'll get in there, make it happen, and I can get more work out of my customer.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I don't get it. Around here, there are plenty of insulation contractors - someone wants their attic insulated, they call the insulation contractor. Boom, done. They won't air seal unless you ask for it, though. I won't insulate without air sealing (I think it's just plain wrong). It's like building a house and not putting in doors.

Air sealing and insulating the attic is actually a good first step, and it's something the HO can't do for herself. Most of the old ladies I know take care of their drafty windows themselves, but not the doors.


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

tedanderson said:


> I've learned that there are people who are in the business of doing the work and getting paid while other people are in the business of giving advice and talking themselves out of the job.
> 
> I got a call the other day from a former client of mine who needed her attic re-insulated because her house is over 30 years old and it's very drafty. She knew exactly what she wanted, she didn't care about the cost, and she was ready to sign a contract.
> 
> ...



LOL!!!


You should have done the job yourself... WTF... 

She needed new insulation so just sell her the damn insulation... If she needed a new roof then let her figure that out or mention that after you sell the insulation job...


Lol most people are not suppose to be sales men. They always stick their foot in the mouth.

LOL... Its not hard... shes not asking for advice... She wants new insulation... so sell her new insulation... then when she realizes later she needs a new roof or what ever then sell her that... but now she is ready for just insulation.


Those types of people need to be told instructions and preform a task. They don't have what it takes to be a business man.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

#1Painters said:


> LOL!!!
> 
> 
> You should have done the job yourself... WTF...
> ...


Considering her house was drafty, she needed air sealing, not insulation. That's what separates true professionals from the rest - knowing what they are talking about and being able to apply the appropriate solution to the problem. But I guess the superior businessman just takes the customers money, leaves them with the same problem and a lighter wallet and laughs all the way to the bank


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

I've talked myself out of many jobs. And then the customer learns the hard way and comes back. It's sorta a long term vs short term philosophy in my mind.


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## Alan M (Jan 18, 2015)

I buy 95% of my tools in my local tools shop (luckily they are one of the best in the country) I have been to others and asked for something. they sell it to me no problem . they don't care if it does what I want. 

my local tools shop sells me a solution to my need. I have went in several times and asked for something and left with a different tool that would do the same thing but cheaper or better etc. 
I have respect for their opinion. they often sold me something for less than what I asked for. thus not making as much but gained a loyal customer. 

as a result I have spent thousands in there when I could have bought slightly cheaper online . I don't mind spending slightly more to get the service and they know that. 

one time they were showing me something and beside it was a cheap self levelling laser. 
a couple of weeks later I was on a job struggling with a ceiling joists (or rather the timber they were attached to) on a curved wall. it was painful to use a level. so I rang my dealer at 4 30 . he said I will bring a few home and I could call to his house to try it. 
I bought the best one and most expensive one. 

I went in one day to buy a skill saw blade and walked out with a festool track saw

went in for a sander left with a rotex150 and a ct22 vac

went in for a biscuit joiner and left with a domino 

I went in one day for a of1400 router and left with a laminate trimmer. because it suited my needs better
they go the extra mile for me a I take by custom their because of that.


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## duburban (Apr 10, 2008)

Alan M said:


> I buy 95% of my tools in my local tools shop (luckily they are one of the best in the country) I have been to others and asked for something. they sell it to me no problem . they don't care if it does what I want.
> 
> my local tools shop sells me a solution to my need. I have went in several times and asked for something and left with a different tool that would do the same thing but cheaper or better etc.
> I have respect for their opinion. they often sold me something for less than what I asked for. thus not making as much but gained a loyal customer.
> ...



This is interesting because I don't trust anyone to sell me anything. Most times I go into a store I regret making conversation because I already know more about the gear. Frequently I am outright lied to.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

duburban said:


> This is interesting because I don't trust anyone to sell me anything. Most times I go into a store I regret making conversation because I already know more about the gear. Frequently I am outright lied to.


I'll just tell the guy to go away. I figure they must hear that regularly...


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## illbuildit.dd (Jan 7, 2015)

:blink:


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## Alan M (Jan 18, 2015)

hdavis said:


> I'll just tell the guy to go away. I figure they must hear that regularly...



I get that in most tools shops but not my local one. 
the normal sales staff . 1 does a lot of carpentry jobs like that in his spare time, another is a plasterer, and another is a fully trained time served joiner. his wife works their too and bought him a kapex because she knew he would want one :thumbup:

the main guy over the tools is a keen diyer and knows loads about tools. 

one of the guys there seems to know everything. I have only asked him 2 questions in my life that he didn't know the answer to, 


on the other hand I often look for tools that they don't know a lot about (usually just released in the us ) . they find out and often start selling them.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Almost any place I walk into around here, I get a blank look when I ask a question. I just assume it's them and not me.:laughing:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

EricBrancard said:


> But I guess the superior businessman just takes the customers money, leaves them with the same problem and *a lighter wallet and laughs all the way to the bank *


ell, the thread title is *"Take The Money and RUN"*... :whistling


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## TaylorMadeAB (Nov 11, 2014)

EricBrancard said:


> Considering her house was drafty, she needed air sealing, not insulation. That's what separates true professionals from the rest - knowing what they are talking about and being able to apply the appropriate solution to the problem. But I guess the superior businessman just takes the customers money, leaves them with the same problem and a lighter wallet and laughs all the way to the bank



Yup, I don't want to be labelled a businessman if that is a standard practice of one. 
He should've done a better job of upselling, and that's completely fine. In fact is say 95%of my jobs get upsold and one point.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

In my Craigslist search today I found a decent contractor. Licensed, insured, etc.. the guy knows his stuff. So I started the conversation by telling him that I needed to find someone who can re-insulate an attic. He gave me the rundown on how much he charges for labor, what he charges per cubic foot of material, etc.. 

Then he began to explain all of the stuff that can go wrong and what else might need work (e.g. a roof leak causing joist problems or hidden damage from burrowing rodents) and he won me over the moment he said, "*... because she isn't hiring me to do anything but the insulation, we'll only price that work specifically, get it done, and then I'll bring up anything else that might be a concern afterwards. *

I think I found the guy that can make it happen. I'll see how it pans out tomorrow.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

There's got to be a moral to this story somewhere...


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

tedanderson said:


> In my Craigslist search today I found a decent contractor. Licensed, insured, etc.. the guy knows his stuff. So I started the conversation by telling him that I needed to find someone who can re-insulate an attic. He gave me the rundown on how much he charges for labor, what he charges per cubic foot of material, etc..
> 
> Then he began to explain all of the stuff that can go wrong and what else might need work (e.g. a roof leak causing joist problems or hidden damage from burrowing rodents) and he won me over the moment he said, "*... because she isn't hiring me to do anything but the insulation, we'll only price that work specifically, get it done, and then I'll bring up anything else that might be a concern afterwards. *
> 
> I think I found the guy that can make it happen. I'll see how it pans out tomorrow.


What????

So let me get this straight. You're going to let her pay a guy to do the insulation because "it's what she wants," then when she thinks the problem is fixed, your guy is going to tell her that now she has to pay more money to actually get the result she wants???

That's pretty f***ed up if you asked me.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

tedanderson said:


> In my Craigslist search today I found a decent contractor. Licensed, insured, etc.. the guy knows his stuff. So I started the conversation by telling him that I needed to find someone who can re-insulate an attic. He gave me the rundown on how much he charges for labor, what he charges per cubic foot of material, etc..
> 
> Then he began to explain all of the stuff that can go wrong and what else might need work (e.g. a roof leak causing joist problems or hidden damage from burrowing rodents) and he won me over the moment he said, "*... because she isn't hiring me to do anything but the insulation, we'll only price that work specifically, get it done, and then I'll bring up anything else that might be a concern afterwards. *
> 
> I think I found the guy that can make it happen. I'll see how it pans out tomorrow.


Why would you hire the guy who is going to bring it up AFTERWARDS? Any solution from that point is BACKWARDS of the way it should be done...

Just a recipe for cutting corners waiting to happen whille milking your long-term client in the process IMHO...

Consider... If she decides to go with the rest afterwards, it is now two separate jobs and he's not going to charge the same as if it was on one job...


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

thehockeydman said:


> That's pretty f***ed up if you asked me.


Yeah.. but what can you do? She wants what she wants and she is willing to pay for it. 

If that makes me a total pig, then so be it. I am not going to lose a customer over an argument. I say let her have her way.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Couple of questions....

Why is a home theater guy trying to sub out insulation work?

Why is the OP so concerned about an insulation guy raising legitimate concerns as to how to do the job correctly?

I believe two guys have been contacted to look at the job. Because of their diligence and professionalism they were eliminated.

OP then shops CL for some guy who will do the job the way he wants?

Sounds very unprofessional & unethical to me....

What is really going on here?


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Sending a Craiglist contractor to somebody's house you don't know, really dude you have lost your mind what safety and business is about. Hang up some TVs and stay out of the skilled trades.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

This is way out there.

What is really going on?


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

tedanderson said:


> Yeah.. but what can you do? She wants what she wants and she is willing to pay for it.
> 
> If that makes me a total pig, then so be it. I am not going to lose a customer over an argument. I say let her have her way.


"Since you are a valued customer of mine, I am sending over a professional who can evaluate and discuss the proper remedy to the issues you are having. While you may just want insulation in your attic, I wouldn't want you to pay for work that will not provide a solution to the problem you are having."


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

EricBrancard said:


> "Since you are a valued customer of mine, I am sending over a professional who can evaluate and discuss the proper remedy to the issues you are having. While you may just want insulation in your attic, I wouldn't want you to pay for work that will not provide a solution to the problem you are having."


Or a Craiglist killer


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

tedanderson said:


> Yeah.. but what can you do? She wants what she wants and she is willing to pay for it.
> 
> If that makes me a total pig, then so be it. I am not going to lose a customer over an argument. I say let her have her way.


You're obviously well respected on this forum, and you've made a number of posts that I personally have enjoyed reading. That being said, I find your attitude towards this case to be nothing short of nauseating.

I have trouble respecting anyone who decides to whore themselves out with complete disregard to fundamental ethics, just to make a few bucks.

This isn't even that big of a job. Do the right thing. If acting ethically causes you to lose the job, big stink. Go find another one. For all you know, deceiving your customer will take all the money she has available and put her in a position of hardship without any results.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I get customers all the time I need to school. You get there and they think they have it all figured out on how to fix things. By the time I leave it's not even close to what they thought. Many times it's actually less money than they thought as well. You have to run your company, not let the customer tell you what needs to be done. They need you to direct them. There is an art to doing this without insulting them too.


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## river rider (Dec 31, 2012)

To me the big problem is that it's not just a do the additional work later type situation. *You'd be doing work that is a significant obstruction to doing it the right way later.* Insulate, *then* sell them removal of that insulation to airseal the attic. This is just crappy. 

You have a minimum obligation to inform them that insulating alone is actually counter productive to what should be done. If you fully explained this, and then they wanted to proceed, it is their choice. The non-intergrated work items are much more a shade of gray. -If you choose to ethically view it that way. 

And yeah, I think the little old lady factor warrants an even more conscientious approach on your end. If you did this to my mom, I'd be sure everyone I knew, and most of the town was aware of my opinion that you were a scumbag. I'd spend days informing people about it. And I might see blood running down your face at some point.

You are exactly the person your posts paint you to be. Over, and over, and over.


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## Alan M (Jan 18, 2015)

another way to look at this is, if you went into a shop and bought a computer monitor , brought it home and went to connect it but realised there is no cable included with it. 
I know I would be annoyed . some of that at the staff that sold it to me. they should be professional enough to point out that there is no cable included. then I can include that cost in my decision process. also that cheap cable has damaged the shops reputation in my eyes
my goal in buying a monitor is to use it on my pc 

her goal was to heat up he house or to make it more cosy. 
I think you are selling her the monitor without the cable. the only way I see that going is bad. this situation will always result in a bad taste in her mouth. 


I worked for a insulation company for a while. 
your 2 goals on every job was. 
leave the house immaculate . like you were never there or better. 
and have the customer complain about how hot their house was. 
these are the two things people want and will tell every one about


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

thehockeydman said:


> You're obviously well respected on this forum, and you've made a number of posts that I personally have enjoyed reading. That being said, I find your attitude towards this case to be nothing short of nauseating.
> 
> I have trouble respecting anyone who decides to whore themselves out with complete disregard to fundamental ethics, just to make a few bucks.
> 
> This isn't even that big of a job. Do the right thing. If acting ethically causes you to lose the job, big stink. Go find another one. For all you know, deceiving your customer will take all the money she has available and put her in a position of hardship without any results.


Since when is Ted well respected? :laughing:


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

I feel for the poor lady. She doesn't understand the real issue and isn't going to find out until someone took her money and ran. That makes it a little harder for those coming along afterwards too. Sounds like the CL contractor realized what the OP wanted to hear. It must be some kind of kickback deal.


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## Philament (Dec 9, 2014)

tedanderson said:


> Somewhere along the line she had her house evaluated by some environmental firm that gave her some recommendations and she is trying to self-diagnose and self-treat the issues.


I agree whole heartedly with what other have said regarding air sealing, ethics...etc, but this might be a case of the customer getting conflicting information. If I cared about the client as much as you seem to, I would ask to see the evaluation from the environmental firm first to see what it says. 

I have seen some of these audits where they list upgrade recommendations from most savings to least savings (be it in the form of energy saved or money saved). Something along the lines of:
1. Upgrade attic insulation to R-50 - save ***.xx/year 
2. Upgrade furnace to 95% AFUE - save ***.xx/year
.
.
.
10. Air sealing - save x/year

This based on modelling/simulation from people who have never actually done any of the installations. The customer, having paid an engineering/environment firm, might weigh the credibility of the firm more than that of the installer's and think they're being swindled.

It's blatantly obvious, to me and most here, what the right thing to do is, but I can sympathise with trying to convince a client that has their mind made up about what they perceive the right way to do things is. A conversation with the evaluation firm may help persuade them.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I'll chime in briefly one more time.

Old ladies can be a unique type of customer to deal with. It's an actual fact that, from my own experience with my own mother, if they aren't looking for advice or education, they won't be hearing it or it may just confuse them (which makes them feel bad). 

If this was my mother, I'd air seal and insulate the attic. The air sealing isn't much more if you're already crawling around an attic, and I'd just tell her it's prep so she doesn't get moisture in the new insulation.

Dealing with the elderly is not always the same as dealing with everyone else. Some people rip them off so they tend to be suspicious about recommendations, they may have their own concerns about their mental and physical abilities, and they can be adamant about things they really have no clue on. This is just like other age groups, but it seems to me to be more prevalent. 

Sometimes trying to keep the situation contained so tons of money isn't spent foolishly is the best you can do. Maybe Ted is just looking out for her, maybe not.


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

tedanderson said:


> Yeah.. but what can you do? She wants what she wants and she is willing to pay for it.
> 
> If that makes me a total pig, then so be it. I am not going to lose a customer over an argument. I say let her have her way.


Just air seal it while they are up there and add it in to the bid. That is of course if you really "care" about this customer. If you don't you could lose a customer for not making the house drafty. Or how all your other good customers leave after they find out you were craigslist shopping.



hdavis said:


> I'll chime in briefly one more time.
> 
> Old ladies can be a unique type of customer to deal with. It's an actual fact that, from my own experience with my own mother, if they aren't looking for advice or education, they won't be hearing it or it may just confuse them (which makes them feel bad).
> 
> ...



Yes they can, they tend to want people who they know work on their houses. They do want to be educated but I agree they can be overloaded easy. For something as small as this like you just do the air sealing, cover the cost in the bid and be done with it.

As far as windows, doors, and other issues bring them up one at a time on a per case basis. 


Just throwing insulation up there isn't even remotely looking after this "long time good customer" That is ripping someone off.


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## river rider (Dec 31, 2012)

tedanderson said:


> st.
> 
> First thing in the morning I am going to start looking for some hacks on Craigslist. At least they'll get in there, make it happen, and I can get more work out of my customer.


I just don't remember you saying you ever had even a basic 4 minute conversation with this HO informing them of the best course of action. You mention what she originally wanted, a bunch of assumptions and generalizations on -HO's do this, or think that, and a bunch second hand input from somebody you sent over there. But no mention of an actual, brief, simple, direct conversation you had with her regarding this issue once you found out that additional work may be wise/needed. 

4 minutes? Is that really too unreasonable to do before you take the attitude quoted above? ....And, not that this would be my concern about it, but maybe you just missed your upsell by not taking that few minutes?


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