# Leather Rose Trowel



## socalmason (Nov 6, 2013)

Ok , so I started out with the Marshalltown dura soft hated them it makes my hand hurt , i used a plastic handle M-Town it was a lot better but a couple months ago i bought my first Rose ( love it ) with a leather handle . The leather feels kind of weird and looks like it is dry , How do you guys maintain your leather handles ? Also would you recommend a plastic handle Rose Trowel ?









- my leather rose brand new 









- a plastic handle rose that caught my eye ( feels good too)


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## wazez (Oct 25, 2008)

I have used rose for quite a few years with a leather handle. I never put anything on it but I did replace the handle on my oldest with a blue plastic because I had worn out the wooden part of it.


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## socalmason (Nov 6, 2013)

wazez said:


> I have used rose for quite a few years with a leather handle. I never put anything on it but I did replace the handle on my oldest with a blue plastic because I had worn out the wooden part of it.


so you got along just fine with yours for awhile ? I have a silencer on mine to prevent that


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

You'll be hard pressed to beat that rose up too much in your lifetime and your skin oils alone go a long way at preventing the leather handle from wearing out. 

If you must a little extra fancy beef tallow will help seal the deal...Smiling mink oil that is :whistling

I'm always proud to mention those Rose trowels are still made right around the corner from me in Sharon Hill PA. Best trowel ever made hands down :thumbup:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I used to used the leather handle one all the time. Eventually the leather will end up unraveling or the wood on the end will start to lose corners. Ive been through maybe 10 -12 of them. 

The last few have been the red marsheltowns. 

That plasic handle rose is no good. Look how far down the angle is on the blade.


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## masonkable (Apr 8, 2013)

Hands down the leather handle rose trowel. Yes I have owned a few of them, been doing this 30 years and have only needed a few. If taken care of they will last, yes blades will wear down or even crack if used as dur-o-wall cutter ( I know this from trying it a few times). I have never "oiled" or coated the handle. The real handle saver for myself and other masons, has been to buy a rubber cane tip (walking cane) maybe from Walgreens or any medical supply store, then slip on the end of the trowel handle and tap away on masonry products with confidence


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

I still use an assortment of 20 and 30 year old Roses. Never put anything on the handles. ....You can tell I hardly ever do commercial work. My trowels wear pretty evenly.


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## socalmason (Nov 6, 2013)

masonkable said:


> Hands down the leather handle rose trowel. Yes I have owned a few of them, been doing this 30 years and have only needed a few. If taken care of they will last, yes blades will wear down or even crack if used as dur-o-wall cutter ( I know this from trying it a few times). I have never "oiled" or coated the handle. The real handle saver for myself and other masons, has been to buy a rubber cane tip (walking cane) maybe from Walgreens or any medical supply store, then slip on the end of the trowel handle and tap away on masonry products with confidence


 awesome , i use one on my rose as well i never could find them because we call them silencers Thanks


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## socalmason (Nov 6, 2013)

CJKarl said:


> I still use an assortment of 20 and 30 year old Roses. Never put anything on the handles. ....You can tell I hardly ever do commercial work. My trowels wear pretty evenly.


haha for being 4 months old mine gas worn down 1/4"


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

JBM said:


> I used to used the leather handle one all the time. Eventually the leather will end up unraveling or the wood on the end will start to lose corners. Ive been through maybe 10 -12 of them.
> 
> The last few have been the red marsheltowns.
> 
> That plasic handle rose is no good. Look how far down the angle is on the blade.


Damn J, you're blowing through the leather every 2/3 years? Never seen anybody do that in my life...I think you're fibbing :laughing:

I still have 2 wood handle, 10.5 narrow London, I won back in towel trade school in the early 80's during a competition - still original handles and I still use them. In addition, Rose makes replacement handles for all their forged shanks so you really never have to throw them away. 

Discalimer; I got oodles of them and rotate them pretty well, but I'll still argue it's the best trowel ever made and I've never had a reason to throw one out.

Now don't be fibbing us saying that you're going through the shanks and blades too :no: cause you'll definitely be blowing your cover 

I might soon be shooting a video tour of the small plant,...the only and original one, which is cool as hell. Totally a step back in time of gargantuan machinery and hand honed techniques. Some of the equipment I hear dates back to the late 1700's at the companies original founding. 

Kraft bought them out, but W.Rose has never changed. Here a link to the many shapes and sizes,... and of course replacement handles if need be. 

http://www.krafttool.com/catalog.aspx?cat=27&subcat=35


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## socalmason (Nov 6, 2013)

superseal said:


> Damn J, you're blowing through the leather every 2/3 years? Never seen anybody do that in my life...I think you're fibbing :laughing: I still have 2 wood handle, 10.5 narrow London, I won back in towel trade school in the early 80's during a competition - still original handles and I still use them. In addition, Rose makes replacement handles for all their forged shanks so you really never have to throw them away. Discalimer; I got oodles of them and rotate them pretty well, but I'll still argue it's the best trowel ever made and I've never had a reason to throw one out. Now don't be fibbing us saying that you're going through the shanks and blades too :no: cause you'll definitely be blowing your cover  I might soon be shooting a video tour of the small plant,...the only and original one, which is cool as hell. Totally a step back in time of gargantuan machinery and hand honed techniques. Some of the equipment I hear dates back to the late 1700's at the companies original founding. Kraft bought them out, but W.Rose has never changed. Here a link to the many shapes and sizes,... and of course replacement handles if need be. http://www.krafttool.com/catalog.aspx?cat=27&subcat=35


that would be cool to see the plant M-Town is good but i like Rose a lot more and glad to know they are still made in the US


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Sounds like Trow and Holden. They still hand build stone tools one at a time. They can have a modern CNC machine next to an 1800 s trip hammer.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

I didn't know Rose made levels. $200 is a bit pricey though....and it doesn't look like I-beam construction. The only type I'll buy now becase of the abuse masonry can dish out.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

superseal said:


> Damn J, you're blowing through the leather every 2/3 years? Never seen anybody do that in my life...I think you're fibbing :laughing:


Not from wear but from dropping a block or rock or throwing it down off the staging. The leather gets a nick and that will be enough for it to start unravaling. 

Im not too gentle with my tools.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I just got a Rose, but it just has a wood handle. It's going to take some getting used to, the blade angle is weird like JBM said


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

CJKarl said:


> I didn't know Rose made levels. $200 is a bit pricey though....and it doesn't look like I-beam construction. The only type I'll buy now becase of the abuse masonry can dish out.


They don't I'm pretty sure they don't, and they're Sands levels with a Kraft name.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I prefer the leather handle too...as with the rest, I don't treat it with anything. I also have a couple with the Proform handle....they're ok, but they don't feel as nice as the leather. I tried the wooden handle too..didn't like it.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

I am also a fan of Rose. American made and local to me. Hands down the best trowels in my opinion. But since Kraft purchased them I have noticed variations in quality. Particularly in the blade. 

For you guys that do not like the lift on the Rose trowels, they do make a low lift design. I switched to a low lift trowel about 5 years ago and it greatly reduced wrist pain.


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## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

I only use rose trowels. I prefer the plastic though. they wear to the shape of your hand. I will snap a picture of what I mean. The leather always seemed dried out and rough.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> I just got a Rose, but it just has a wood handle. It's going to take some getting used to, the blade angle is weird like JBM said






The lift of a trowel handle (angle of blade) is not one size fits all.I have old Bon Tool catalogs (back before they marketed their own trowels) and both M.T. and Rose offered "high set or low set" handle angles. S.S. will more than likely have info. on that.

I own and believe both M.T. and Rose make great trowels,I own both never had a problem with either. Am happy they are still made in States.


As far as handles go, 99% of what I buy are wood,a couple of duct tape wraps and I'M good to go. I do own one Rose with a blue handle,came with it,works just fine in my book.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

So far I haven't used a full mud board with the rose trowel. I started a job with it but the brick were a bit awkward to lay so the new trowel just wasn't putting the mud where i wanted it and I kept bumping the brick with the trowel, mud was slopping around. Went back to my old trowel even though i cracked the blade and things were much better. 

I think the rose WILL be much better when laying brick in the usual position, between knee and belly height


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

CJKarl said:


> I didn't know Rose made levels. $200 is a bit pricey though....and it doesn't look like I-beam construction. The only type I'll buy now becase of the abuse masonry can dish out.





I would bet a dollar to a donut those levels are made by Smith,Rose just puts their name on them,marks them up and "passes" the savings on to the unsuspecting consumer.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

You guys keep trowels for more then a year? I bought a MT in July or Aug. and the black plastic where your index finger is is cracked and splintered already. Im about to go buy another one. I hardly ever get more then a year out of a trowel. 

I never got more then a year or 18 months out of the exact 2 foot levels either. Since switching to Stabilla im on 25-30 months, so far and its going great. Truly impressive.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

I've had my Rose leather now for about a year and a half. I like it. Its a bit big if Im doing manufactured stone work, but for block and brick I really like it. I dont put anything on my handle either.


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

JBM said:


> You guys keep trowels for more then a year? I bought a MT in July or Aug. and the black plastic where your index finger is is cracked and splintered already. Im about to go buy another one. I hardly ever get more then a year out of a trowel.


I wondered about that too, one of the dura-soft MT's will last me about nine months...probably less if I'm not laying rock. Of course I do the massively taboo task of cutting brick with my trowel but that isn't what wears them out. If I used a the same trowel for over a year a, 10" trowel would be 7" long.

I used to use the plastic handle Rose's just because that was what I grew up using. The end of the handle would wear out quickly and they also gave me callouses real bad, to the point they were painful. I am sold on the Dura-soft's, doubt I'll ever use anything else. The ends last forever and no more callouses.

Amazing how many different worlds there are to this craft.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

fjn said:


> I would bet a dollar to a donut those levels are made by Smith,Rose just puts their name on them,marks them up and "passes" the savings on to the unsuspecting consumer.


I don't think so Fred, I'm pretty sure Sands makes them. I have a Smith, and they are the only ones that tongue and groove the layers together. Sands and Crick face glue them...like the ones Kraft sells. All of them offer premium hardwood and stainless rails. Whether I'm right or wrong , they are awesome levels no matter who makes them.

They are almost too nice to use. Mine is walnut and maple, yellow vials.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I have a question....how many of you have replaced the handle? I would like to switch the Proform for the leather handle. Whats the process?

Then again, for $30 more I get another trowel.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JBM said:


> I never got more then a year or 18 months out of the exact 2 foot levels either. Since switching to Stabilla im on 25-30 months, so far and its going great. Truly impressive.


You get the Mason version with the cushioned binding? You like them better than wood levels?


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## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

I am using empire levels now. I was blowing through wooden levels like crazy. tried one of the Empire blue box levels I had it 2 years no issues. I got to try out their "mason pack" tools. they sent me out a black composite level that I like so far only complaint is its heavy. My wooden levels were always splitten and separating. they were never very accurate after about a year.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

I usually get about 3-4 years out of a Rose trowel. The majority of the ones I have replaced were due to shattering the blade where it meets the shank. Most times from smacking it against something because I didn't clean it enough the day before. Also replaced a couple because I cracked the tip tightening a conduit coupling because the electricians were nowhere to be found :whistling

I use crick levels. I am averaging about 3 years with them also. If I took better care of them I'm sure I could get another year or two on top of that. If you are having issues with wooden levels delaminating it is most likely because you got them wet frequently with out drying them. Or not keeping them oiled.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

stonecutter said:


> I have a question....how many of you have replaced the handle? I would like to switch the Proform for the leather handle. Whats the process?
> 
> Then again, for $30 more I get another trowel.


I've only replaced one handle, put a new plastic one on an old Rose....you boil it up to soften it.....set it and forget it. Beautiful. I've never used wood or leather as replacement though.......

Rose is the gold standard, but I bought a Bon stainless online, and I absolutely love it....

For me, the handle material is secondary, as I have always chosen my trowels by the steel.......even in a box of 12 new Roses, the flex will vary quite a bit.......I love the ones with a lot of 'give'........


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

2low4nh said:


> I am using empire levels now. I was blowing through wooden levels like crazy. tried one of the Empire blue box levels I had it 2 years no issues. I got to try out their "mason pack" tools. they sent me out a black composite level that I like so far only complaint is its heavy. My wooden levels were always splitten and separating. they were never very accurate after about a year.


I have been using a 72" true blue for the last 7 years. It went out of level after 3, and since they have a lifetime warranty I was able to simply exchange it for a brandy new one. The only thing I'm not crazy about is the beveled edge...better to prevent chipping, but worse for scoring lines.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

NJ Brickie said:


> If you are having issues with wooden levels delaminating it is most likely because you got them wet frequently with out drying them. Or not keeping them oiled.




:thumbsup: Linseed oil is the best to put on them,it comes in two types that I know of,boiled and raw. The raw is the way to go,soaks in better and does not end up sticky.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> I have a question....how many of you have replaced the handle? I would like to switch the Proform for the leather handle. Whats the process?
> 
> Then again, for $30 more I get another trowel.





99% of my handles are wood. Those are simple to switch,cut the thin metal of the ferrule with a 4" angle grinder with metal blade,split wood with chisel,push on new handle. 

As cold as it has been around here the last 3 weeks (single digits for highs)I bet one would only have to drop a plastic handle and it would shatter ! :laughing:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Rockmonster said:


> For me, the handle material is secondary, as I have always chosen my trowels by the steel.......even in a box of 12 new Roses, the flex will vary quite a bit.......I love the ones with a lot of 'give'........


 

I share your sentiment about handles 100%. Same goes for the flex.One way the flex improves (takes a while) is laying a lot of block,it wears the blade steel evenly and thins it out.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> I don't think so Fred, I'm pretty sure Sands makes them. I have a Smith, and they are the only ones that tongue and groove the layers together. Sands and Crick face glue them...like the ones Kraft sells.





Ah ! you are more than likely correct,did not see the T&G .You are correct Smith still groves them,crick used to but stopped.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

fjn said:


> :thumbsup: Linseed oil is the best to put on them,it comes in two types that I know of,boiled and raw. The raw is the way to go,soaks in better and does not end up sticky.


Yup, raw linseed is the way to go :thumbsup:

In a pinch for a quick clean up I have used spray furniture polish.


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## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

stonecutter said:


> I have been using a 72" true blue for the last 7 years. It went out of level after 3, and since they have a lifetime warranty I was able to simply exchange it for a brandy new one. The only thing I'm not crazy about is the beveled edge...better to prevent chipping, but worse for scoring lines.


that is my only dislike about them. the poly level I have from them now is square edge. the bevel sucks because I use my level to mark straight edge all the time. the bevel can really screw with you. I like having the top bubble. the true blue does need a bigger handle.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> You get the Mason version with the cushioned binding? You like them better than wood levels?


No I cant stand that cushion thing. I use my level for a straight edge quite a bit, I bend the 2" lip on my lead with it, for example. 

But yeah, its a million times better then the wood level, and a *bajillion* times better with the top mount bubble for chimney work.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I replaced a leather handled Marshalltown, my first trowel. I just blobbed some PL in the hole and jammed the new one on. By morning it was good to go. It was 10 years old when the handle fell off, that was 5 years ago, it's my mixer trowel now. I'm like NJ, I crack the blade at the shank from smacking it on something (usually concrete) when I didn't clean it well the day before. Almost always in the late fall on a cold morning.

My last trowel was a Goldblatt? I actually liked it well enough, took a couple days though.

My best level was my first 4' Got it when I was just starting out and piss poor. $20 for a Johnson 2'&4' at Walmart of all places. The 2' lasted 3 or 4 months and it was out of level, but that 4' got dropped 20', smashed by my hammer, kicked over and stepped on probably 100 times and I would check it every week or so and it was ALWAYS bang on. Then I helped out a friend in a subdivision and misplaced it. Serves me right I guess. Now I have a crappy Stanley...I hate it, but it works


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

HA just looked up Goldblatt. their catalog says they have concrete & masonary tools, real pro tools I guess


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## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

Goldblatt makes nice jointers. they fit the hand well. they are a milder steel then most but a good comfortable jointer. I don't use runners or anything so comfort is key for me.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I grabbed a goldblatt 11.5" for $5 at a surplus place. I chopped off the top third and made a nice bucket trowel. No way I would do that to a Rose.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JBM said:


> No I cant stand that cushion thing. I use my level for a straight edge quite a bit, I bend the 2" lip on my lead with it, for example.
> 
> But yeah, its a million times better then the wood level, and a *bajillion* times better with the top mount bubble for chimney work.


I wondered about that fat binder... It looked awkward. I'm not much of a brick layer, but I would think if you need to bash the bricks down constantly with your level, you might need to work on technique a bit more.

A bajillons times huh? That might get me to but a Stabilla someday.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

When you put up leads you tap the level all day long. On a chimney this is how I do the sides.....tap tap tap


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

I've been using these from rose for awhile now, and I love 'em.


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

I've been using smith levels for a long time, and wouldn't use anything else now.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I use the stabilla 4'. On steps it is so comfortable to look down instead of rubber necking to see the bubble.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> I grabbed a goldblatt 11.5" for $5 at a surplus place. I chopped off the top third and made a nice bucket trowel. No way I would do that to a Rose.






I do the same with cheap big box trowels,I found I can make a bucket trowel more to my liking then the ones sold as such. The store bought ones are usually a straight cut. Being right handed, I cut the end on a angle,right to left,keeps hand from scraping side of bucket. I imagine a left hander would benefit from the opposite angle.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

One thing I hate is when a level has that stupid 45* bubble. Has anyone ever used that ever? I mostly hate it because if I go to use it for checking plumb I always seem to flip that end up, then have to reverse it. Stupid.

I will only buy a level that has the level bubble visible from the top. When I'm laying manufactured stone I level each stone, and most of the work is below eye level


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

brickhook said:


> I've been using smith levels for a long time, and wouldn't use anything else now.


+ 1

But I agree with JBM about the top bubble for certain applications. That's why I have a bajillion levels, and just as many excuses to buy more.:thumbsup:


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

Yeah, I agree with JBM also. I' ve had stabillas ,too. I still have a two foot stabilla that I use when tooling corners.

(edit) I like them, too!


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> One thing I hate is when a level has that stupid 45* bubble. Has anyone ever used that ever? I mostly hate it because if I go to use it for checking plumb I always seem to flip that end up, then have to reverse it. Stupid.
> 
> I will only buy a level that has the level bubble visible from the top. When I'm laying manufactured stone I level each stone, and most of the work is below eye level


I use em for starting herringbone fireboxes.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Guess so, I use a level line then a small square


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

I miss the bad old days when there were all CMU foundations and tile walls, every hardware store and lumberyard yard bought trowels 12 at time in a size, and you pick the bend the was the closest to your old one. Don't be afraid to heat the tang and bend the trowel to your needs. Weeks of break in can be eliminated by some carefull power sanding of the cutting edges to "sharpen" them, use a broke in trowel as a pattern, Many new trowels are too pointy for example, and won't furrow a brick bed joint sufficiently with out months of wear or a few minutes of careful cutting and grinding...

I tell all my apprentices to always carry extra "show" stopping tools, I.e. two trowels, usually a wide heel block trowel,and a narrow heel brick/veneer trowel. 2 jointers, 2 levels, 2 string lines, pencils...etc.
Working on sesmic or prison walls(rebar forrests) a low lift handle with very little angle is handy for spreading the block faces with out as much knuckle busting.
Old M-towns would only last a year on the line... now with their improved steel( still shy of Rose's quality) they'll go almost 2 years before being demoted to bucket/mixer trowels(chop saw 2-3" of the point off @ about 80 degrees angle, cleans mixers & buckets out faster, very handy on a ladder patching/tucking.
Rose are well worth the tiny cost extra, I'll love whipping out my 13" Narrow heel covering three big hole brick at a go, or smoking some kid to the center of a block wall with wide heel 12" Rose(the "corn shovel")

Unfortunately Spec Mix that isn't properly mixed or PCL with out air entrainment isn't very friendly to large trowels/carpel tunnel, the money makers stay in the bag on most commerical jobs. Instead the 11.5"long old brick and 10.5"long old block trowels come off the bench for another season. The crappier the mortar/labor, the shorter the trowel, I've gotten down to 8.5" patch trowels on some rat jobs.

When hiring just looking at the wear patterns of the mechanics tools can help separate the boots from the journeymen.

Nothing is as silly as a level with dirty lenses, or someone not spending the 10$ for green tinted vials that works inside.... Any one using a level with a "bad" bubble needs a b slap, Kite string, or a corn cobb hairless brush, if you can't afford a decent set of tools, its time to move on to a new trade or quit the crack pipe.

I was taught that striking one's level INSTEAD OF THE UNIT with the blade of your trowel as a foolish destruction of equity, only use the crutch tip covered trowel handle on the plumb rule.... if necessary. If your arms are getting tired/sore building leads, you're spreading to much mud, or the mortars to stiff, or the brick need to be pre-wetted. Any shoe makers tapping on brick laid to a line need to return to cobbling... Using wore out trowels and cloudly--spookey levels are time and money wasters, One more Square ft. laid a day will provide you with the best/newest tools to work with, and allow one to finish the days work with out being exhausted. Why work with ca-ca, when quality pays?

On OP, the wood W Rose handles are about an inch longer when new, and last as long as the blade with the use of crutch tips,
the leather trowel handle are pretty, but all the ones I've owned wear down to an unconfortablely small diameter after a year or two or three....and are only ~5" long, the extra inch of the wood allows me to tap closer to my level when lead building. For the glove free crowd the plastic handle extension over the "Riser" part of the tang is nice in the cold wet days of spring and fall


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I like working with the hurray for me types, they are usually gasping for air by 3 oclock. thats when I turn up the heat for the last 2 hours and they just turn into the biggest pussies around.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Any shoe makers tapping on brick laid to a line need to return to cobbling... /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Tapping is only necessary if: You spread too far for temp or suction of laid units, or the laborers/foremen refuse to supply mortar with adequate moisture/slump, or pre wet very porous units.

Bond strength is achieve by the cement slurry/paste being drawn into the pores of various types of units, shove joints are superior in that they bond the head joint as well the bed joint, they leak a lot less and have superior torsional strength, Your source doesn't pretend to measure any head properties joints at all, stacked bond test prisms.

Even if cobbler style brick laying resulted in a tiny increase in wall's compressive strength in just the one direction, the damage done to the head joints by the one dimensional application of force produces a weaker product in all other dimensions.

Furthermore, no one can hammer a unit to as tight a tolerance as just pushing one into place with the proper mortar plasticity.

Shoemaker style masons lay far fewer units than ones that just lay to the line without unnecessary monkey motions, The tappers are the last to be hired, and the first to get laid off around here. Instead having the trowel handy to recycle the extruded mortar for the next head joint it falls on the hop in shoe maker land. Furthermore where does that mortar fly that had been on your trowel ? some where were it costs money to wash off?
When I have tapped down tens of thousands of Units to the line, I wasn't proud that I had too.... Again, tapping is signal to the laborers to temper the mortar piles, to the mason to spread less of the wall, or the foremen needs to pre wet the brick.

Keep tapping away, your competition and your carpal tunnel docs will thank you.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Interesting article fjn. Got to admit I've never heard that before. 
Was always taught to push them into place, although when building up corners there is no option if a brick or 2 is not spot on.
I have worked with bricklayers that have to tap every brick out of habit, even on the line.


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

Fouthgen is still here?


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Instead having the trowel handy to recycle the extruded mortar for the next head joint it falls on the hop in shoe maker land. .





Being an open forum as the name implies,here is a point of view on the subject expressed by mason and author Gerard Lynch.

"Some inferior methods of applying the head joints in the name of production are practiced by the bricklayer. In the shoving method,as a brick is laid and the excess mortar is squeezed out of the bed joint the trowel blade collects it cleanly in a swinging action,and places the mortar upon the cross-joint face of the previously laid brick on the front and back arris. Where this method is adopted only the outer arris is buttered,especially in tight joint work. Thus one has,constructionally,a weak joint and alas another point of entry for wind driven rain. This method was traditionally used on the walling,which was grouted upon completion of each course and insured good solid walling.It has no place on modern cavity or veneer construction."


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

The grouting used to be done on 9 inch walls, known as larrying in, or up. BRE did some tests on poorly built cavity walls, and found that it took about 20 minutes for heavy driven rain to penetrate the cross joints and run off the snots, bounce off the ties and on to the inside blockwork.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

A shove joint here is a unit pressed into final position while the head and bed joints are extruding some mortar. not the 'slush' joint you described.
I use the cut off mud to wet the edge(s) of the right hand head joint so the buttered unit's mortar fill the head joint completely eliminating the need for "tuckpointing" prior to tooling the joints.

Your previous source fails to test the loss of tensile and torsional strength caused by the hammer techinque.
Masonry Engineers rarely test for either because its so much cheaper to do a squeeze test than the others

How do you ensure the bed joint is still in 100% contact with all Four units after impact? The fact that you have to increase the pressure several, 10 ,20 100 x over just the strength of your arm/shoulder creates voids when the pressure ends and the mortar stops flowing to fill the voids created during the impact event.
If I had a friend, one that never worked on my walls, and he insisted on tapping units, I suggest waiting till the whole course was laid and then doing them all at once... to lower the lost production....
If your mortar is so weak that a few psi is needed, add some portland, take out some of the lime dust...

I can't ever see tapping units laid to a line as a bonafide bricklaying method... I could be wrong...But it is very very unlikely in this case.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Here's some old bricklaying skills, looks like they are tapping the bricks a lot.:laughing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xuUqJH3ehM


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Re: the British post WWII? film, Poor boot can't afford a car in post WWII's labor paradise... Great Britian.

Like the old school Plumb bob plumb rule, there is a money maker, waiting for the plumb bob to quit bouncing off the wood of your level....

Are you referring to the tapping on the already laid to the line brick, the "Mason" is knocking the formerly plumb faces out of plumb so that the never to be seen again top of the brick is "level" bump to bump..... that is 3 month cub thinking....this clown wouldn't make it to lunch unless the crew needed some giggles.

I think and hope you have a couple of actors playing at masonry... I'll watch the credits next time.

Again the inside man attacks an already complete course with his plumb rule---wasn't the line plumb to last course? Again more I want to be unemployed mason techniques.

Its funny to see the Brits using what was obsolete for 40 years already scaffolding-with no material shelf.
Spreading mortar then fooling around screading it off like one is setting a stone is another pack your grip trick.... no wonder they had beat the brick down to the line after the mortar laid there for minutes instead of seconds....

Some teach by postive example, most teach by negative.....


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Your previous source fails to test the loss of tensile and torsional strength caused by the hammer techinque.
> Masonry Engineers rarely test for either because its so much cheaper to do a squeeze test than the others




You seem adamant to refute the findings of those bond strength tests,insisting that the head joints suffer as a result and a 50-100% bond strength increase is "slight".


If you can provide examples of test data that support your point of view I would be most interested in viewing them. Without such data perhaps,your point of view can be taken only as pure conjecture on your part.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Couldn't find the actual test that resulted in a doubling of "bond" strength, but I'll goggle the miracle method I'd never heard of before...

Again I can't see how one could beat down the unit without destroying the head joint and or leaving voids in the bed joint---Tap the front, tap the back, tap the center, there is two unbonded ends left, a camel hump of stronger(surplus water has been extruded) in compression but weaker in all other measured directions. Where does that extruded water go, into the head joint base and into the uncompressed mortar in the voids in the bricks, now that mortar there is weakened.....that mechanically bonds the wall when the suction bond fails, tapped wall are easier to disassemble due to damage to many of the cement paste fingers being broken by the movement of the unit after initial set.

The test was stacked units with ZERO consideration of heads joints, bond etc....
How do you tap set a stack bond panel without destroying previously laid courses?

My Prism break tests have achieved 5 6 and 7 Kips with our 14kPsi units using 2500Psi masonry cement... doubling that would be stronger than the brick.....:smile:

I don't see any concrete masons using a plate compactor to get stronger concrete....
If tapping does more good then harm I'll become one of those shoe makers...

Some questions for those that still might have an open mind, A. why are walls built with masonry mortars tougher then those built with neat portland?(Maybe other properties besides compressive strength are important.) Why do dry and clean units make a stronger wall then wet and or dirty units? part b why shouldn't you ever use used bricks or blocks in exposed or load bearing walls? How do I capture the valued added by my tapping the units, Get paid? Why isn't the whole industry tinkering away?


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## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

No one compacts a wet pad obviously, however asphalt patches work that way. I always plunge the mud with hand tools, for pockets voids, even core filling. In effect would tapping, provided the consistency of mud isn't crap, provide assurance of bond and small voids? I can understand a complaint against always adjusting but it's inevitably an added benefit as well, to uniformly tap block and such. Adjusting sections that would cause irreversible damage is obviously wrong as well.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

If you need to tap units down to the line, the mud is cr$p, or you spread to much wall... or the units need to be pre wetted, see the 6 drops in a circle wait 5 minutes to check for visable water remaining rule....
Asphalt is conglomerate, rolling concretes would actually break the fraction of cement that had set...
Our AIA contracts here specifically forbid tapping...

I'd question that 50 to 100% increase test actually compared the same thicknesses of bed joints.... the thinnner the joint to brick ratio, the higher break # do to greater confinement of the mortar sections.

All other things being = eventually tappers will either accept much lower wages, or financially fail out of the trade, some will graviate to patch work or the Internet :smile:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fouthgeneration;
[COLOR=black said:


> I don't see any concrete masons using a plate compactor to get stronger concrete....[/COLOR]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

Fouthgeneration said:


> If you need to tap units down to the line, the mud is cr$p, or you spread to much wall...


or, you're an old fart that gets tired of shoulder pain when the wall gets above shoulder height....


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Not on a bed joint.... definetely not on head joints.
Raise the foot hop maybe next time...Kniggit

Fewer monkey motions per unit laid = less sore body parts. I'd try a day not overspreading, skip the several hundred "taps", and see if the shoulders hurt less. :smile:

Having to tap the unit above your shoulders is more silly than tapping on ones laid in the "sweet spot", knees to elbow high...

The excess water in mortar is in it to eliminate the extra operations to create a bond. i.e. make $ and not damage one's body while doing so.

Now that we all are paying each others Obama-Care, will the Uncle Sam start punishing those that injure themselves at work by repetitive unneeded impacts on their bodies?
I don't know if I've ever seen a sixty year old full time tappers and darn few fifty year old tinkers that were able to still lay 40 hours a week.

I will admit to occasionally tapping a cmu head joint tighter for bond spacing, but I'm still trying for squeeze joints on every unit except the closure of course.

The biggest deal breaker on tapping is that it is imprecise, either one taps very lightly(and slowly) several times and sneeks down to the line, or one excepts close enough hammer blows and walks away from a less than economically possible flat wall finish with the mortar splatters(extra $ for clean up) from using a dirty trowel as a hammer.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Re: the British post WWII? film, Poor boot can't afford a car in post WWII's labor paradise... Great Britian


Not many working class people had cars here in the 40's or even the 50's.


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## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

I tap out of habit. any chimney guy will be a tapper. when you are building all 4 leads and its 80%+ lead work all day you will be a tapper. Line work I only tap to do fine adjustments when laying to the line. My trowel handle is short and angled from tapping. you should not have to hit the brick but a gentle tap is for the perfect brick work.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

While can't speak for all workers My GG pa and G pa did,1939 and Dad bought a new car as 1st yr apprentice, but he lived with Grandma & gpa1945, They were Union in a big City though

Its hard to realise how dirt poor the two WWars made "Great Britian",People were freezing to death in the winters(late 1940s) due lack of coal... in the experiment in socialism, price controls, food rationing for several years post war, etc...

Sixty some years later, 2000-3000 elderly Brits died from exposure IN their homes last early spring as GB ran out of natural gas..... Oooops!

I'll double check, but I think Union scale was~1.20 an hour, 90 cents for labor, 6 pounds(film wages) is about 30.00$ a week/40 =75 cents hour for a journeyman with much higher food costs. 18 cents hour production bonus...

Even now with a little boom of construction wages are still well south of 20 EU an hour in London.

I "tap" on leads, I'm too cheap to beat my level. but what happens to the head joint, it slumps out of place, and has to be pointed.
Brick veneer, I'll screw on 2 speed brackets per post, and than lay every unit to the line nearly. :smile: downside apprentices get very little brick lead time anymore...


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

In London bricklayers get about £150-£200 a day. However have you seen the house prices in the City?


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Here's an example
http://www.zoopla.co.uk/property-history/53-the-vineyard/richmond/tw10-6as/29428398


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

No, "thanks for beautiful craftmanship, now please leave the area before the curfew,"

In my town, you can buy 1890s 25'x 100' or120' main street 2 and 3 story business/apartments for 100K$ or less, but they don't have any parking < 20.00$ per sq. ft.
most have full basements.

Why aren't you building your own home where land is cheap? Too many regs?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

4th gen you sound knowledgeable enough but you come across as a total ass hole. Piss off.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Land you can build on isn't cheap here. Some developers buy cheap land without building permission and bribe the Council Officials to grant them it.
Where I live the farmers used to build houses for their kids on their land without permission, but once you can prove you have lived in it for 4 years, they can't make you knock it down.


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