# tile redi shower pans ?



## Tech Dawg

If you can fit a Noble drain, use it! Rich from Mid West Trade tool has good prices on the Noble drains + you earn points on your purchases to get $$$ off your following orders :clap:
Great incentive to shop there :thumbup:


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## JohnFRWhipple

astor said:


> ...
> Do you know other brands of linear drains has same feature like Noble clamping ring?Are they designed for sheet membranes?...


Nobel Company's drain is the only one to use a clamping ring that I have ever seen.

Quick Drain USA's Proline drain has the Nobel TS pre attached.

Kerdi Line comes with Kerdi pre attached but they don't endorse the use of anything but Kerdi.

ACO's flanged drain can be used with sheet membranes or liquids

ACO, My Shower Grate Shop and LUXE can all be installed with Nobel TS or Dal Seal and a three piece clamping drain.

Doesn't help you much because you still have a wide open selection process.
:clap:


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## angus242

JohnFRWhipple said:


> ACO, My Shower Grate Shop and LUXE can all be installed with Nobel TS or Dal Seal and a three piece clamping drain.


Even easier with the Noble drain flashing!!!!!


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## JohnFRWhipple

*Chicago Trade Show - McCormick Construction Show*

I hear that there is a trade show in your next of the woods Angus. I just got this booth shot from ARC Accessible Housing.

I'm hoping you can go check them out for me and pre screen them. The AKW Tuff Form pan will be showcased in Chicago at the McCormick Construction Show this week in Chicago. I have seen a number of solid installs by this guy Shannon Melvin online and he has taken the time to answer my many questions - you guys know I have lots of questions...:blink:

His booth looks like this; Can you check them out Angus?


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## Tech Dawg

Jdub,
I've seen these pans back by the prodesk at Conestoga Tile and honestly not much to get worked up over. Plumbing suppliers are being approached around here to hold seminars for their customers which is a free class (as long as you buy stock in the product...)
Its a marketing joke. The one supplier that I go to dropped the class because noone would attend. Who wants to buy a bunch of pans to have sit around for months??
The average cost of these kits are around $1,500.00 where I can spec a standard 3x5 or 4x4 shower for a material bill of under $800.00 (waterproofing, deckmud,thinset, grout and so on...)
If a flood test fails, I think you'd have to go to more demo to tearout and redo, eh? You build some nice showers so I don't think its worth your time


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## Tech Dawg

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80655&page=6

John, here's a link to the other thread about it... post number 76 shows a floor prep job for one of these pans it will fail:whistling


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## astor

Tech Dawg said:


> If you can fit a Noble drain, use it! Rich from Mid West Trade tool has good prices on the Noble drains + you earn points on your purchases to get $$$ off your following orders :clap:
> Great incentive to shop there :thumbup:


Love it!:notworthy I got tons of TLS to buy from them, with 5 Noble linear drains, my expenses will be lower!:clap:


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## Tech Dawg

astor said:


> Love it!:notworthy I got tons of TLS to buy from them, with 5 Noble linear drains, my expenses will be lower!:clap:


Apparently, Rich works a lil better price on the Noble TS if you buy by the roll


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## JohnFRWhipple

Here is a AKW Tuff Form Pan installed out in Toronto by Ronny from Reliable Independent Living Services®.

I love the Strainer. Looks good.

From my understanding the shower pan get's installed flush to the top of the floor joists (if this can be done) and a 1/4" cement board gets installed outside the pan and brings the grading even at the connection point.

There is a special liquid waterproofing that is sold with the kit by Mapei that ties the tile ready pan from AKW into the wall assembly.

Ronny has done loads of these types of installs and he told me he really likes the NEC product. I look into that one as well.


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## JohnFRWhipple

*Schluter Shower Kit vs Tile Ready Pan*

What Ronny works with most is the Kerdi Kits. That's where we don't see eye to eye. Ronny is getting lots of support from his local Schluter rep and has had a great track record with the regular Kerdi Kit.

I want to show him some more of my installs and show him how low you can go without the styrofoam build up. This is a 3/4" difference right out of the shoot.


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## astor

JohnFRWhipple said:


> *Schluter Shower Kit vs Tile Ready Pan*
> 
> What Ronny works with most is the Kerdi Kits. That's where we don't see eye to eye. Ronny is getting lots of support from his local Schluter rep and has had a great track record with the regular Kerdi Kit.
> 
> I want to show him some more of my installs and show him how low you can go without the styrofoam build up. This is a 3/4" difference right out of the shoot.


John, that looks really nice!Can I ask, how practical to use those two doors at the corner ?


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## JohnFRWhipple

astor said:


> John, that looks really nice!Can I ask, how practical to use those two doors at the corner ?


I have not built or tried one like this before. That job is one of Ronny's - I see versions of these doors in showers where the client has an aid. Some of the shower doors are split so someone in a wheelchair can sit and the care giver can help through the top split.

Give Ronny an email - he knows his stuff. You can look up Eric from Accessible Homes as well - like Ronny these men specialize in the entire homes build and can much better answer the medical specific questions.

There is also a guy on Link'd In named Wally - a wealth of information he is. Wally has been in a wheelchair for a long time and does design in the South. He told me until I spent a day in a chair I would have no idea. I'm going to do this soon I hope. I would like to try and use a few of my clients showers to see how accessible they are. Should be a real eye opener for me!

JW


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## ShannonMelvin

TECH DAWG..lets talk about that cost. I have talked to a lot of guys that love, love the mud. When you get down to the nuts and bolts the pre-formed pans take the cake. I promise. I know of over 200 installs in your area and the guys are happy not mixing and carrying the mud all over the house. Not to mention the designers appreciate the predictability of the pan. Results of the Construct show in Chicago...overwhelming!!! 90% attendees were architects. They are no longer satisfied with the "old school" approach. To many failures and in a multi-unit facility the unpredictability is undesirable...period. I suggest that you give a Tuff-Form a try, want me to send you one? Trust me...you will love it!


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## Tech Dawg

ShannonMelvin said:


> TECH DAWG..lets talk about that cost. I have talked to a lot of guys that love, love the mud. When you get down to the nuts and bolts the pre-formed pans take the cake. I promise. I know of over 200 installs in your area and the guys are happy not mixing and carrying the mud all over the house. Not to mention the designers appreciate the predictability of the pan. Results of the Construct show in Chicago...overwhelming!!! 90% attendees were architects. They are no longer satisfied with the "old school" approach. To many failures and in a multi-unit facility the unpredictability is undesirable...period. I suggest that you give a Tuff-Form a try, want me to send you one? Trust me...you will love it!


Your singling out the wrong guy... I'm not the one that said they suck and to run away from it... :laughing:
I simply just think your marketing tactics suck. Did you register as a vendor here?


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## ShannonMelvin

Contractor first my friend. Check it out, www.woodwright.com


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## Bill_Vincent

I did a log home very similar to the one pictured on the front page of your website. In fact, if I were to post pics of the great room, you'd never know it wasn't the same house as your exterior pics.

As for the preformed pans, I was the one who said they suck, and I'll stand by that, for the reasons I expressed in my last post.


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## ShannonMelvin

Bill,

Please forgive me...I joined late. Please bring me up to speed again on the "suck" part (sorry to all of the other readers). Great job on the log home...the one featured on the front page of WWC webpage is my personal home. We build a lot of log homes and here in Wisconsin they are mostly retirement homes. Hence the impact on me for "Ageless Living Design".


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## Bill_Vincent

> First off, they flex, which means you're going to need to fill underneath with either mortar or low expansion foam. Secondly, they need to be set in place, and then the framing done around them, because if the framing's off even 1/16", you're going to end up floating/ feathering walls to make the pan work. I've done one, once. Won't do them again. I'll give the job away, first.


This being about the tile redi pans specifically.


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## ShannonMelvin

Right!

I could not agree with you more about Tile-Ready


Lets talk Tuff-Form


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## Tech Dawg

Shannon,
Its great that your a contractor and seems like your a salesman for the tuff form/ trending accessability stuff. I called them and they put on a funny act like they don't know you :laughing:
They sent me some info... when I go on shower leads I like to show photos of my work, as well as, any manufacturer literature, samples etc... I even carry a few tile boards. The info that I received from your company had some step by step photos which is good//(ONE PROBLEM with THAT)//

Who in the right mind (or what manufacturer) thinks that I'm going to walk in a $300,000-- home and promote a tuff form pan for a (let's say) $20k shower job and show the step by step photos from the press packet where the installer has a pony tail down to his azz, wearing a bandanna, basically looking like he just came from a biker bar. I think that for me, it would be a total embarrassment to show those photos to anyone, its ridiculous :laughing:

I threw it in the trash... if that company can send a professional looking press packet, then ill take a look


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## JohnFRWhipple

angus242 said:


> :blink:
> 
> I don't think you can buy the waterproofing on its own. It must be supplied with the pan.


Angus you can order the waterproofing kits (Mapegum WPS) from ARC Acessibility.

The kit I got had a 10kg bucket of Mapegum WPS, a drain flashing, a shower outlet flashing, four inside corners and a wack of Mapeband.

That and the drain came with it.

Drain looks sharp and is adjustable.


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## JohnFRWhipple

I'll be flood testing this box out on Monday.


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## JohnFRWhipple

*Pictures of the AKW Drain*

Tile Ready Pan from AKW Tuff Form

























































More pictures of the AKW kit.


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## angus242

I can get Mapeband products on my own. I cannot get the Mapegum WPS as it's not sold in the States.


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## Tech Dawg

JohnFRWhipple said:


> Eric is going to be here at my place on the 5th. Maybe I'll mock up a little sample for him.
> 
> I don't see why the Nobel Sealant 150 would not bite to the pan.
> 
> The square drain flashing looks a lot like Nobel TS
> 
> That is the Mapei Drain Flashing in this picture above with the Mapegum WPS waterproofing kit.
> 
> JW


JDub,
I was not referring to the Noble Seal 150...

For some reason, HydroBan will not bite to the pan and I would rather try with available products.

ILO the Mapei tanking kit, I think this pan could be installed with Noble or Dal TS setting the fabric to the pan with Noble EXT for waterproofing making it go quicker for tile installation...
Eric says that the EXT will stick to anything.
Noble Seal 150 would come into play with seaming the fabric and probably not touching much of the pan anyway.


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## JohnFRWhipple

I wonder if the Laticrete guys sanded the AKW Tuff Form pan before doing their product testing? Perhaps the Mapegum WPS has a special binding agent added to it. I still have it on my fingers!

I believe that this is a required step. I'm thinking I'll hit this pan with my angle grinder and cup wheel. Works for cement and ply - why not on a pan?

I'm curious as well the bonding strength with Kerdi Fix.


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## angus242

Looks different than the typical AquaDefense./Hydro Ban type stuff we're used to:

http://www.mapei.com/public/COM/products/2014_mapegum wps_gb.pdf


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## ROVACON

John, I will be trying Noble's Probase on my next bathroom reno in a couple of weeks. Walls and floors are getting treated with TS.

I will be sure to take pics as it is the first time that I will be using this product from them.


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## JohnFRWhipple

ROVACON said:


> John, I will be trying Noble's Probase on my next bathroom reno in a couple of weeks. Walls and floors are getting treated with TS.
> 
> I will be sure to take pics as it is the first time that I will be using this product from them.



The Probase from Nobel looks great. I've seen a number of install videos online. After this trip to Vancouver I hope the Nobel boys set up a supplier or two. Nice to have more options.

Please post a wack of pictures!


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## jarvis design

Tech Dawg said:


> I can't get it up yet... .


Wow,..... so many opportunities!!


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## Tech Dawg

JohnFRWhipple said:


> I wonder if the Laticrete guys sanded the AKW Tuff Form pan before doing their product testing? Perhaps the Mapegum WPS has a special binding agent added to it. I still have it on my fingers!
> 
> I believe that this is a required step. I'm thinking I'll hit this pan with my angle grinder and cup wheel. Works for cement and ply - why not on a pan?
> 
> I'm curious as well the bonding strength with Kerdi Fix.


JDub,
Have Eric bring some EXT to see if it will stick the fabric to the pan :thumbup:


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## JohnFRWhipple

Tech Dawg said:


> JDub,
> Have Eric bring some EXT to see if it will stick the fabric to the pan :thumbup:



I doubt he is travelling with it - but I'll ask. :thumbup:

My wife is making the burgers now for Wednesday. Greek Burgers Baby...

JW


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## ShannonMelvin

The waterproofing components for the mapiegum wps system are available ala carte.


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## JohnFRWhipple

ShannonMelvin said:


> The waterproofing components for the mapiegum wps system are available ala carte.


Thanks Shannon.

For the record there is no "I" in Mapegum WPS .

Brian will be by shortly to correct you. :thumbup: Working on this hole spelling thing.... :laughing:

Put another coat on tonight after movie night and added a little mesh just to cover the box seams.

I'll do a final coat tomorrow and flood the box out.

JW


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## angus242

JohnFRWhipple said:


> Working on this *hole* spelling thing....


Fail! :laughing:


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## JohnFRWhipple

LOL Angus I type whole 'Hole' on purpose.

That time. :laughing:

I think I spelled Schluter like Schulter for almost two years. No wonder I never get any Kerdi Calls... :laughing:


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## ShannonMelvin

Here are some progress shots of a job this week









Before bath. Little girl has CP. Current bath is small and dangerous.











We are combining a laundry, bedroom and current small bath to create a space for wetroom bath and bedroom. Laundry repositioned to be accessed elsewhere.
Current bedroom was sunken (step). Sleeper floor levels things out eliminates step and allows for mechanical re-route.





















Tuff-Form fitted











New walls framed. Space allowed for new Lifetime vanity. Sleeper floor sheathed with 3/4 " T/G decking.











Tuff-Form is adhered. Raises slightly above the subfloor. Ready for tile backer. Bathroom has become large.











Lifetime vanity space...notice the electrical is moved to front access.











Drywall taped and plumber made drain connection

More to come


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## JohnFRWhipple

*Noggins or blocking*

Thanks Shannon for sharing your progress pictures.

First off I did not get a picture of the "Noggin" detail around the drain. Your "Noggins" look like 2"x6" 's on the flat vs 2"x3" 's in the vertical position. Personally we have installed a lot of 2"x6" like you show and makes up my first question. 

Can we use 2"x6" or 2"x4" studs on the flat like that instead of vertical 2"x3"'s studs? 

I have spoken with my own structural engineer about the deflection rates of dimensional lumber and I believe even a 2"x2" over 14.5" is suffcient for decreasing deflection in a subfloor. Because of this we will often use 2"x4" or 2"x6" on the flat for shorter spans. 

My instruction sheet shows 2"x3" Noggins. In the instructions the Noggins are in the vertical position.

_*Step 2*
Fit Noggins 75mm x 50mm (3"x2") to all edges of the cut out area to support for both the wet floor former and the exsiting floor. Aslo fit them within 100mm (4") of the waste outlet position.

Joist top surfaces do *not* require profiling for installing the tuff-form._



*Noggin Definition *

Horizontal timber between studs in timber-framed wall construction.
www.jonathanberney.co.uk/index.cfm

Short pieces of timber, fitting between joists for rigidity.
www.qualitydecking.co.uk/decking_terms.php

Vertical wood blocks used to bolt the ledger beam to the trackwork.
compsimgames.about.com/od/rollercoastertycoon3/a/rct3_terms…

Small spacers used to keep the joists at a set distance. As larger decks can wobble, the noggins also make the deck more rigid.
www.diyinfozone.com/what-is-decking-and-decking-terms

A horizontal timber block fixed between the chords of adjacent joists.
www.eandhbaxendale.com/easi-joist/easi-joist-definitions/

This is a piece of timber that is fixed between joists so that it helps support the end of a board that spans the joists.
www.thesolidwoodflooringcompany.com/Wooden-Flooring-Fitt…


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## Tech Dawg

At minimum, I would double up 2- 2x4 or 2x6's on a joist hanger... 
It would make me feel better :laughing:


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## JohnFRWhipple

Just to bust your chops some Shannon.

Is that a switch closest to your shower? Re: image-4002486795.jpg

Perhaps it is a panic alarm? We are installing these both inside and outside the showers of a current project here in North Vancouver.

I gave my cardboard box a third coat this morning. With the brush I was using I had a hard time achieving a 1mm coverage and would think I would have better luck with a mini napped roller.

This is one of the main reasons I like three coats with a brush. The little fabric in the corners is not spec'd in the Mapegum WPS spec sheet and something I did to seal the folds in the cardboard.


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