# Switch Loop Problem



## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

CookeCarpentry said:


> *A tick tester* indicating, when the switch is uninstalled that both white and black are hot.


That is how you determined they are line voltage?

I hate to tell ya, but that's not gonna cut it...

You need something to tell you the actual voltage, don't just _assume_ it's line voltage because your tick tester is beeping.


----------



## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Tick tester? Same as proximity tester?


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Which?


----------



## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Celtic - Boomhauer was who I first thought of after that post as well....haha.

Winchester - tick tester to determine if they were live, followed by multi tester to measure voltage, continuity, etc.

Tin - neither diagram - feed comes in from light then to switch.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Tin - neither diagram - feed comes in from light then to switch.


That makes no sense; it has to be one or the other. It sounds as though you're describing "B". In "B", the AC source is fed through the ceiling to the light fixture, but the hot takes a detour down the wall and through the switch.

About the only other way to do it would be to have the switch breaking the neutral side rather than the hot. I could see that if the thing was wired by an auto mechanic, maybe.


----------



## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Tin, you are right - it is "B". I read the post too quickly and mistook the labeled "AC in" as a switch....so yes, B.

The general consensus, as well as trial and elimination, tend to indicate a loose connection in one of the light fixture's...but accessing them is going to prove difficult at best, if you look up in earlier posts I describe the drywall install technique my FIL used to install the rock.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Tin, you are right


Red letter day! Tell my wife, please. :laughing:

If you are indeed reading 120V on both wires with reference to ground, the implication is that there is an open in the neutral (white) line between the fixture and the AC source. That could well be at the receptacle feeding the line into the ceiling. It could just as easily inside the fixture's JB itself.

[Edit] Strike that. An open neutral still wouldn't show voltage in the circuit as drawn. You might be getting fooled by a "ghost" reading with a high impedance digital meter.

Good luck. :thumbsup:


----------



## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Tin - don't tell my wife I said those three words "you are right"...

Anyways, I ruled out the recep feeding the fixtures.

Basically, I posted on here suspecting it was a wrong connection in the lights, but not wanting to admit that so soon, so I was looking for some feedback as far as other problems it might be, before I went into the jb's in the ceiling.

Since this was for the in-laws, I made a half-hearted attempt to appease everyone, but like everything with them, it turns out more complicated than it is. I told them what I thought, and what the most likely problem and solution was...obviously they are not thrilled about making access in the ceiling after all the...ahem...meticulous...drywall work they did...


----------



## kasey (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm not sure what your fil did as far as drywalling but even a new-work recessed can is made so that you can get access to the jb by taking out a couple or three screws in the wall of the can and then sliding the can down and out the hole in the drywall. The flexible metal cable will still be connected to the can as well as the jb. You should then see the jb right next to the hole. By code any type of jb has to be accessible; all manufactured electrical devices are built to allow this. You shouldn't have to make a hole in the drywall to get to it.


----------



## Hidyusbeast (Dec 21, 2008)

kasey said:


> I'm not sure what your fil did as far as drywalling but even a new-work recessed can is made so that you can get access to the jb by taking out a couple or three screws in the wall of the can and then sliding the can down and out the hole in the drywall. The flexible metal cable will still be connected to the can as well as the jb. You should then see the jb right next to the hole. By code any type of jb has to be accessible; all manufactured electrical devices are built to allow this. You shouldn't have to make a hole in the drywall to get to it.


x2 all junction boxes need to be accessible to be code compliant whether they are new construction or remodel. I would check the cans closet to the receptacles 4 the problem. If necessary check them all, but the can with the power to it 1st will most likely be the problem (since no cans are working). A meter would be very helpful if not necessary. The problem could have something to do with the transformer and the cheap factory wire nuts coming off the leads being melted. Keep us updated . . .


----------



## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

I don't have to make a whole in the drywall, let me rephrase. The drywall was cut too large around the can, and the excess area filled with compound, including overlapping the lip/edge of the can. So in order to drop the can, I have to remove some compound...actually a lot of compound...in turn creating a hole.

Going over tomorrow or Friday to check it out...will update soon thereafter.

Thanks to everyone so far, very helpful.


----------



## USAF sparky (Mar 24, 2009)

If you want to test for an open neutral test between neutral and ground. If neutral shows 120V to ground you have an open neutral somewhere between where you are and the power source.


----------



## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks to everyone for they're advice.

Problem was resolved a couple weeks ago, but am just getting around to responding. I dropped all 4 cans in question, and two of them had bad connections between the #14 romex and #14 stranded from the fixture. Looks like when they were installed, no pliers were used to twist all the wires together, and someone simply installed a wire nut - disturbance of bedroom above must have knocked connections loose. Re-connected all 4 cans, and only had one small area of drywall to patch. 

Problem solved.


----------



## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I hate when that happens.


----------



## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Tinstaafl said:


> Which?





> That makes no sense; it has to be one or the other. It sounds as though you're describing "B". In "B", the AC source is fed through the ceiling to the light fixture, but the hot takes a detour down the wall and through the switch.


I don't see that in "B"


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

K2 said:


> I don't see that in "B"


I do. You need to take a few Artistic Appreciation classes. :jester:


----------



## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Tinstaafl said:


> I do. You need to take a few Artistic Appreciation classes. :jester:


Switch loop needs a black and a white feed into the fixture and a black and a white,(romex), down to the switch. That's 4 wires. Explain.... please.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

K2 said:


> Switch loop needs a black and a white feed into the fixture and a black and a white,(romex), down to the switch. That's 4 wires. Explain.... please.


Touche'. Okay, the one wire should be labeled "black" instead of "white."

I forgot that electricity won't flow if you have the wrong-colored wire. :jester:

ETA: I take that back. It still looks good from here.


----------



## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Tinstaafl said:


> Touche'. Okay, the one wire should be labeled "black" instead of "white."
> 
> I forgot that electricity won't flow if you have the wrong-colored wire. :jester:
> 
> ETA: I take that back. It still looks good from here.


I still don't see it and I have a test on this stuff this week. If your drawing is correct than i'm going to flunk my test. Can you make it clear as mud?? with little arrows or something??


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

K2 said:


> Can you make it clear as mud?? with little arrows or something??


Try this. The white wire going up from the switch should of course be marked to indicate that it's used as a hot at the light.


----------

