# Primer failing adhesion/tape/fingernail test(?)



## Dullers (Feb 26, 2015)

Hi All,

Renovation carpenter/general with decent paint experience here. I normally hire my regular paint crew to do anything more than a little trim or a single room. 
I think I'm struggling with primer adhesion. Can anyone weigh in and give me peace-of-mind that my paint will stick?

Surface: Vinyl "wallpaper" _thoroughly_ glued to luan plywood wallboard
Primer: Zinsser CoverStain, oil
Paint: SW SuperPaint

Surface: Cabinets, various. Veneer, manufactured wood, etc.
Primer: SW Extreme Bond, latex
Paint: SW ProClassic

The cabinets are more concerning than the walls, but I'm curious on your input with both. I just did the tape/fingernail test today and it's been 48 hours since application. Temps are decent in the 50's/60's during the day. 

The oil on walls still feels soft-ish, but doesn't seem to be flaking off. "Failed" the tape test. Does scrape off with a fingernail pressed hard enough. Didn't sand walls. Did clean with Simple Green.

The latex on cabinets bunched/streaked in one spot where I think I missed with my scuff-sand, medium grit sponges. Cleaned with Simple Green. 

Not looking for the highest end finish (otherwise my paint crew would be stripping, spraying, etc). 
Just looking for it to not flake & peel off in 6-12 months :laughing:

Thx guys!

Cabinet Pics:



























Wall Pics:

















Cabinet Scratch Test





Cabinet Tape Test





Wall Scratch & Tape Test


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## Gumshoe (Dec 24, 2016)

I like to avoid cleaners before priming. Even the no rinse cleaners like Soilax scare me. Any, and I mean any residue can be problematic. Sanding and removing the dust with plain warm water is what I normally do. Your primer selection is spot on. Topcoats as well. I will say that today's paint formulas really take some time to harden up to pass the fingernail test or the tape test. I've had coatings in the past fail for a week or so before the paint finally hardened up and cured enough to be acceptable. Just a few thoughts.......


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## Dullers (Feb 26, 2015)

First post... did you register just now to respond? Thanks!! That's reassuring - I appreciate the input. Noted on the cleaner. A good water-and-rag wipedown would probably be fine, unless there's grime in the kitchen/bath.

Happy holidays!


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## PRP (Jul 30, 2016)

Give it more time. Full cure time for oil is around 3 weeks and acrylics take 4 weeks. You mention daytime temps, is this place getting cold at night?


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

For me Cover Stain OB has always exceeded expectations. I'd let it dry into the 3 rd day, see if it hardens up.

Just re-read. Simple Green can cause all sorts of problems. Hard to think 30:1 would do any serious cleaning ? So we put in more...right ? 1 oz to 30 oz is a good start. Must rinse with water ! Completely.

That 3 rd pic is contamination or grease ?

Any future spot or re-prime use BIN shellac based.


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## Ohio painter (Dec 4, 2011)

I think you are spot on with your primers and finish paint. I would say give it more time to cure. As far a prep you can't go wrong with it getting it clean dry and dull.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Single Green leaves a residue, doesn't it? I use no-rinse TSP substitute and wipe it down and get the extra off.

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## Gumshoe (Dec 24, 2016)

Dullers said:


> First post... did you register just now to respond? Thanks!! That's reassuring - I appreciate the input. Noted on the cleaner. A good water-and-rag wipedown would probably be fine, unless there's grime in the kitchen/bath.
> 
> Happy holidays!


I'm an old-timer over on the DIY and Painttalk forums. Entering my 39th year in the painting biz.


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## Caslon (Dec 15, 2007)

Dullers said:


> Hi All,
> 
> 
> I think I'm struggling with primer adhesion. Can anyone weigh in and give me peace-of-mind that my paint will stick?


Wall areas don't get the wear and tear trim does. I would have saved myself some brain cells and used Zinsser's water based Bullseye 123, which would have adhered better than Cover Stain, which is used for exterior wood. As for the cabinets, if they have a lacquer type finish on them, that primer should stick ok. Just touch up nicks that will happen. For maximum hardness and adhesion, I would have used an oil based specialty primer such as XIM or a pigmented shellac. 

Give the Cover Stain time to harden. It may still fail the tape test, but walls aren't subject to nicks as much as trim.


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## Philament (Dec 9, 2014)

I have no idea, but I'm giving two thumbs up for most detailed description of a problem. :thumbup:


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

With temps in the 50's and 60's it's going to take longer to cure, paint can take weeks to cure. I think you're fine with the chosen primers when prepped properly but I would have chosen something other than Simple Green.


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## Dullers (Feb 26, 2015)

Thanks for all the responses! I appreciate you all taking time out of your holiday to weigh in. :thumbup:

Sounds like the general consensus is Simple Green was a poor choice and I'm expecting too much adhesion within only a few days, especially with the lower outside temps we have right now.

Given all your input, I feel pretty confident moving forward with how it's behaving so far and some minor adjustments. Thanks again and Merry Christmas!


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## Dullers (Feb 26, 2015)

PRP said:


> Give it more time. Full cure time for oil is around 3 weeks and acrylics take 4 weeks. You mention daytime temps, is this place getting cold at night?


Gotcha. Thx! It is getting cold at night yes. 30's & 40's at night. 50's & 60's in the day. I'm in Central Coastal California right now. Palo Alto area. 



We Fix Houses said:


> For me Cover Stain OB has always exceeded expectations. I'd let it dry into the 3 rd day, see if it hardens up.
> 
> Just re-read. Simple Green can cause all sorts of problems. Hard to think 30:1 would do any serious cleaning ? So we put in more...right ? 1 oz to 30 oz is a good start. Must rinse with water ! Completely.
> 
> ...


Switching to water for sure. I think that streaking in the 3rd pic is from either the Simple Green residue, or I just missed scuffing/dulling that area with my sanding. 




Gumshoe said:


> I'm an old-timer over on the DIY and Painttalk forums. Entering my 39th year in the painting biz.


Right on! 39 years, wow. Thanks for your input  



Caslon said:


> Wall areas don't get the wear and tear trim does. I would have saved myself some brain cells and used Zinsser's water based Bullseye 123, which would have adhered better than Cover Stain, which is used for exterior wood. As for the cabinets, if they have a lacquer type finish on them, that primer should stick ok. Just touch up nicks that will happen. For maximum hardness and adhesion, I would have used an oil based specialty primer such as XIM or a pigmented shellac.
> 
> Give the Cover Stain time to harden. It may still fail the tape test, but walls aren't subject to nicks as much as trim.


I used the oil based on the walls because I was worried about water based or other products loosening up the vinyl "wallpaper" glue. It's not common, but I've seen it happen. Particularly with topcoats/paints. 
It does STINK though. Yikes. 

Thanks for the advice. I'm not too far in at this point that I couldn't change products. I honestly haven't used SW Extreme Bond before. My SW rep recommended it. He said a lot of guys have been using it lately and had good success. I considered using the CoverStain on the cabinets too, since I've already got the oil going. 
I would have to eat one can as I've already opened it.


Edit: I read over on PaintTalk.com forums a theory that SW's Extreme Bond is basically a ripoff/takeoff of 123 primer. Not sure what merit it has, but I wouldn't be surprised. 123 is my go to one-size-fits all primer.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 2, 2016)

I've never had Adhesion issues with CoverStain and I've yet to use SW Extreme Bond. I'm guessing that the simple green is the likely issue, but the low temps will extend the cure time as well. Try running some fans.

I've also had great luck using Krud Kutter Deglosser to clean cabinets before they're sanded. For the final wiped own I just use a little bit of water.




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## Dullers (Feb 26, 2015)

I've gotta get on the Krud Kutter train. I see a lot of guys with it. 
I need a couple sundries tmrw anyways. I'll grab a spray bottle and give it a go.
The deglosser can't hurt with my cabinet refinish! 
Cheers


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## sparehair (Nov 21, 2008)

Dry times double every ten degress below seventy. So if your at 50 at night, dry time to powder on the oil would be four days.

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## Dullers (Feb 26, 2015)

That's a great rule of thumb
I like it, Thanks!


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Dullers said:


> That's a great rule of thumb
> I like it, Thanks!


Don't know if that helps you any, your issue is cure time not dry time. Besides the only oil you used was Cover Stain that doesn't take 8 hours to dry, it takes 7 days for full adhesion/cure at 70 to 80 degrees.


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