# Carpentry becoming compulsory trade debate !!!



## carpenter123 (Jan 7, 2013)

I just read an article in the Toronto Sun that the Ontario College of Trades is being asked designate carpentry as a compulsory trade. 
Just wondering what everyone's point of view is on this topic and if your for this movement or against it. Since I do have my Red Seal certificate I think this is great and should've happened years ago. I'm not aware of any of the cons though if this does happen. Whats everyone's thoughts ??


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

....


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## carpenter123 (Jan 7, 2013)

Can you explain that a little more ?? Are you referring to "trade school" , home renovation tech, or a woodworking course at a college ??


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

Canada has a certification program ---a better explanation from a Canadian would be welcome-----


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

I believe this is the article to save which the op is referring: http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/07/carpenter-certification-wont-hurt-construction-industry-hoskins



> TORONTO*-*Ontario’s construction industry would continue to thrive even if workers who do carpentry were required to be certified, Economic Development Minister Erik Hoskins says.
> 
> As the Toronto Sun revealed, the Ontario College of Trades is considering a motion to designate general carpentry as a compulsory trade.
> 
> ...


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## carpenter123 (Jan 7, 2013)

yep that is the article i'm referring too. i guess it really only applies to canadians though. its a debate on wether its a good thing or bad for the industry, even if it doesnt apply to you feel free to put in your thoughts. I just want to get a good overall idea on what people think about it.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I think it would be a nightmare. If it was in the States, I would look at it as a way for the unions to takeover the industry completely.

What types of carpentry? Cabinet maker? Handyman? Are you going to make the small repair guy who fixes doors and windows get certified in framing? Then are you going to make them get certified in commercial framing even though he only repairs doors or fixes roofs?

Then like the article says, how will you implement it. Are there enough classrooms for everyone, and if not, how will little old granny find a guy to fix that broken piece of trim that is falling down. Then once the vast majority of guys are certified, what do you do with all the instructors who are now not needed? If you need to go to school, most guys will do something else and there will be a shortage in the trades.

Stupid idea. It may work if it is a two day certificate that just goes over the basics, but to tell a handyman he needs to know how to frame an office building, or tell a plumber he needs to be a certified "carpenter" just because he needs to drill some holes, or add a support joist would be chaotic to say the least.

Besides, they quote a medical doctor. So if I get certified, do I get to charge 250,000 dollars a year and live next to this guy because I install windows for a living and am now licensed and certified?

So many ways this could be bad.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

I guess the real question is: does licensing carpenters work in the states? Does it help raise rates for legit guys and keep hacks out (or at least down)?

If it works then I say adopt a similar system. If it doesn't help then tell the government to keep their nose outta out business (like that will ever happen)


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

I totally 100% think it should be compulsory.
A hair dresser of all things needs a license, yet a carpenter.. a structural trade.. requires what? A pick up truck and hammer?
I hope it becomes compulsory, that way the good guys can justify their rates because some cheap hack won't under cut them.
I could go on for days but this is all i will write for now . :thumbup:


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

I think it would be great. You have to submit a valid SS number to enroll. Insurance and continuing ed required to for yearly renewal. Customer to be held responsible/fined for hiring unregistered contractors. That would be as popular as the Affordable care act.


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

VinylHanger said:


> I think it would be a nightmare. If it was in the States, I would look at it as a way for the unions to takeover the industry completely.
> 
> What types of carpentry? Cabinet maker? Handyman? Are you going to make the small repair guy who fixes doors and windows get certified in framing? Then are you going to make them get certified in commercial framing even though he only repairs doors or fixes roofs?
> 
> ...


As I recall, Canada already has a shortage of people in the trades.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Dustincoc said:


> As I recall, Canada already has a shortage of people in the trades.


you would never know it by the rates we get framing houses.

Imo there might be a shortage because it doesn't pay enough. (except the regulated trades EG plumbing/electrical)


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

FramingPro said:


> I totally 100% think it should be compulsory.
> A hair dresser of all things needs a license, yet a carpenter.. a structural trade.. requires what? A pick up truck and hammer?
> I hope it becomes compulsory, that way the good guys can justify their rates because some cheap hack won't under cut them.
> I could go on for days but this is all i will write for now . :thumbup:


I agree with that...While I have worked with a lot of decent guys without tickets, I believe if certain tasks required a ticket, the prestige and pay scale would go up. Big problem with small time residential contractors is the little barrier to entry, tv salesman yesterday, going to build a deck today.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Regulating the trade is a good idea, it will show a minimum standard and hopefully have some accountability. However, the trade needs better definition.

Currently a red seal carpenter in Canada is expected to qualify and complete every trade except plumbing, electrical, gas fitter, and I'm sure I may have missed one or two others.

If the carpenter license was for carpentry only, yes, go for it.


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

JT Wood said:


> you would never know it by the rates we get framing houses.
> 
> Imo there might be a shortage because it doesn't pay enough. (except the regulated trades EG plumbing/electrical)


Not sure about your area but around here every fishermen and woodsmen is a carpenter as well. So there's shortage of people who know what they're doing.


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## Millworker (Jan 17, 2013)

I am not sure about in the states but there are plenty of "licensed" hacks around here. Some of the best Finish Carpenters/Cabinet makers I have ever met were old school guys who learned the trade from scratch or were trained from a family member such as a father or grandfather.

Some of the biggest douche-bag butchers I have met were bragging that they have a "ticket" before I had even seen the the work they do. Or they make comments like " I am the only licensed carpenter in this company"


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## NCMCarpentry (Apr 7, 2013)

This is why I'll be challenging that exam ASAFP! I figured it was coming but never heard anything about it until now... Should have that sucker within a month or 2


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

The framing contractor is looking for a laborer. He must find one that passed tests making him qualified for:
Building and hanging doors
Constructing double hung, slider, awning, and casement windows
Installing wood, vinyl, aluminum and cementious siding and fascia and soffits
Framing including layout, calculating and cutting rafters, and stairs 
Constructing and installing cabinets
Hanging drywall
Installing hardwood/softwood and laminate flooring
Concrete form construction
Finish and trim carpentry
Installing suspended ceilings
Building wooden ships
Constructing roller coasters
And more. 

Good luck. Do you really expect the HO is going to look for this guy to install his screen door or install a new hinge on his cabinet?


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## carpenter123 (Jan 7, 2013)

Its interesting to see what everyone's view is on this topic. Especially Canadians because from what I see they all agree it should be. I have to agree also. When you look at someone installing doors, trim, hardwood floors etc..it seems overkill to have to have a red seal certificate ( or be a registered apprentice ) to do it but when you start looking at framing, concrete forming, decks or anything that is structural it makes perfect sense to need one. 
just as an example. An electrician does his job monday- friday, then has a framing company he does on weekends. As long as his work passes a framing inspection everything is fine. But, its illegal for anyone who is not an electrician ( or apprentice) to do anything electrical for a homeowner. Even adding one receptacle to a circuit. Even if there was a permit and the building inspector would pass it, no one can touch electrical work unless your qualified too. There is such a huge difference between the two tasks yet the simplest one needs to be done by a qualified person while the other can be done by anybody with a hammer. 
I dont think that all parts of carpentry needs to be done by a licensed carpenter but definately structural work. If we HAVE to hire an electrician to install a dimmer switch then they should have to hire us. ( nothing against you sparkys just using you as an example to prove a point )


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## NCMCarpentry (Apr 7, 2013)

thom said:


> The framing contractor is looking for a laborer. He must find one that passed tests making him qualified for:
> Building and hanging doors
> Constructing double hung, slider, awning, and casement windows
> Installing wood, vinyl, aluminum and cementious siding and fascia and soffits
> ...


Even for electricians they can have labourers for a maximum 3 months... At that point if that framing labourer is any good he should be given an apprenticeship and taught the trade properly.


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## rjfoot (Mar 12, 2014)

I think it is a great idea. It shouldn't effect handyman either. They could make it so you need credentials to acquire a building permit, which doors and windows and small repairs don't require. My understanding on the issue was that the Union's were the ones most against Carpentry becoming a compulsory trade.

It would raise our hourly wages because right now a journeyman carpenters and cabinet makers are basically the lowest paying trades out there. Most young people getting into trades know this so they go and become electricians, plumbers and welder's instead.


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## generalnobody (Mar 12, 2014)

rjfoot said:


> I think it is a great idea. It shouldn't effect handyman either. They could make it so you need credentials to acquire a building permit, which doors and windows and small repairs don't require. My understanding on the issue was that the Union's were the ones most against Carpentry becoming a compulsory trade.
> 
> It would raise our hourly wages because right now a journeyman carpenters and cabinet makers are basically the lowest paying trades out there. Most young people getting into trades know this so they go and become electricians, plumbers and welder's instead.


I think its naive to think its not going to affect the handyman. All you are suggesting is that they should create a bunch more rules layered on top of the rules we already have in place and leave it up to us to sort out what we are supposed to do. We don't need more rules. 

Ask Quebec how well their system is working out for them (similar to what is being proposed in Ontario). It has not raised wages, has lowered construction dollars being spent, and those in it are paying fees and taxes out the wazoo. 

Carpentry is a very broad definition, and non licenced guys are not the problem. I would hire a non licenced guy for my crew long before a licenced guy with all else being equal. More often than not the licenced guy can't back up all the talk with what he actually knows. They are usually the butchers that I have to go behind and fix up later. 

I know several framers here that are unlicensed, and are much more knowledgeable than any licenced guy. A piece of paper doesn't make a job get done any better. 

Again, licensing is not the problem. There really isn't a problem that needs to be fixed - at least not for what they are trying to do with the OCOT.


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## Ryan03 (Jul 11, 2007)

I don't think it's fair to compare non licensed carpenters to licensed ones and say who's better. "Better" is a very broad word, and can refer to many different aspects. I believe at the end of the day, ticket or no ticket a good worker is defined by the quality of work they are able to produce while being efficient in doing so, through experience, knowledge and work ethic to put in a good days work..carpentry as a whole covers a lot of different tasks, I don't think you can justify comparing a licensed guy to non..that's like comparing a framing carpenter to a finish carpenter; ticketed or not..given the task, they are both going to excel more at what they do day after day.
Work ethic is what separates the good from the bad. You have to be willing to learn and have the drive to be the best you can be. Having a ticket or not, doesn't separate skilled/unskilled.


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