# Bubbles in refinished hardwood floor, smelling BS from my sub



## Ethos (Feb 21, 2012)

Disclaimer: I'm a Kitchen and Bath guy, which means I never have to deal with hardwood floor refinishing, because 99% of the time we're installing tile floors.

Anyways, we hired a sub and he refinished the floors in this kitchen that we're remodeling, however there are bubbles in the polyurethane. The HO noticed, and I told him the issue would get resolved. The floor guy said the following to me:

"The bubbles are typical, and will work themselves out with floor traffic."

This sounds like a lame excuse for poor workmanship, but that's just me. Wouldn't you guys suggest a buffing with a light grit sandpaper and one more coat of poly?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

I've not heard that one either and NO I also am not a HW guy.

We've got some good ones here on the forum that will surely chime in soon.

My gut feel is something is fishy.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

The bubbles come from either mixing products or a too thick application. My guess is he switch between incompatible products. Tell him he can either fix it now or wait till they work themselves out to get paid..


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Lot's of possibilities when it's a rush job. Sounds like one.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Ethos said:


> Disclaimer: I'm a Kitchen and Bath guy, which means I never have to deal with hardwood floor refinishing, because 99% of the time we're installing tile floors.
> 
> Anyways, we hired a sub and he refinished the floors in this kitchen that we're remodeling, however there are bubbles in the polyurethane. The HO noticed, and I told him the issue would get resolved. The floor guy said the following to me:
> 
> ...


Yep screen & recoat. It occasionally happens to the best of us.


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## Ethos (Feb 21, 2012)

pinwheel said:


> Yep screen & recoat. It occasionally happens to the best of us.


Yeah, I'd be lying if I said I'd never had to rip out some of my work and redo it. We all get tired, rushed, a bit lazy, but it's the final product that's important :thumbsup:


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> The bubbles come from either mixing products or a too thick application. My guess is he switch between incompatible products. Tell him he can either fix it now or wait till they work themselves out to get paid..


Bubbles happen for many reasons. Shaking finish instead of stirring introduces bubbles. Using a roller will introduce bubbles. Heck, I even get em occasionally with my lambs wool when it's overloaded. Nothing a screen & recoat won't fix.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Yes, screen and recoat. We do a lot of gym floors and I would say about 1/3 of the time when the flooring sub says he is done, I make him do a screen and one more coat. It's not a big deal.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

So THIS



Ethos said:


> "The bubbles are typical, and will work themselves out with floor traffic."


Is not true correct? Pin and others?

I was more interested in the "excuse" given.

Just curious.:thumbsup:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Ethos said:


> "The bubbles are typical, and will work themselves out with floor traffic."





rselectric1 said:


> So THIS
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bubbles in a dried finish will never work themselves out. They are locked in the resin now. The most they will happen is foot traffic will shear the top of the bubble off and leave a small hole.

Screen and recoat.

I love "when the bubbles work themselves out, you'll get paid." :laughing::laughing:


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## Walk On Wood (May 8, 2010)

pinwheel said:


> Bubbles happen for many reasons. Shaking finish instead of stirring introduces bubbles. Using a roller will introduce bubbles. Heck, I even get em occasionally with my lambs wool when it's overloaded. Nothing a screen & recoat won't fix.


Bubbles can also be caused by not allowing the stain to dry adequately or coating while direct sunlight is hitting the floor... Whatever the cause, they are unacceptable.. Screen and recoat


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Leo G said:


> The most they will happen is foot traffic will shear the top of the bubble off and leave a small hole.


Now THAT makes sense and was what I kind of figured.:thumbsup:


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Walk On Wood said:


> Bubbles can also be caused by not allowing the stain to dry adequately or coating while direct sunlight is hitting the floor... Whatever the cause, they are unacceptable.. Screen and recoat


Had the direct sunlight screw me on a job a few weeks back. 2 giant windows facing east & the morning sun blasted down on my wet finish. Took me a little bit to figure out why. We pulled down the blinds before we coated again.


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## Walk On Wood (May 8, 2010)

pinwheel said:


> Had the direct sunlight screw me on a job a few weeks back. 2 giant windows facing east & the morning sun blasted down on my wet finish. Took me a little bit to figure out why. We pulled down the blinds before we coated again.


Yep, the sun has gotten me more than once.. I've found myself taping rosin paper to windows to block it out when necessary.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

No bubbles in any finish ever. You can thin, you can run a hair dryer (no heat). I haven't tried it since the reformulation last year, but I'll thin a product until shaking it, or scrubbing it in won't leave permanent bubbles.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

hdavis said:


> No bubbles in any finish ever. You can thin, you can run a hair dryer (no heat). I haven't tried it since the reformulation last year, but I'll thin a product until shaking it, or scrubbing it in won't leave permanent bubbles.


Why the bubbles are present should be determined first before advising a recoat. If they are due to improperly dried undercoat a full resand is needed. If due sun or clean up minor contamination a recoat will suffice


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

jamestrd said:


> Why the bubbles are present should be determined first before advising a recoat. If they are due to improperly dried undercoat a full resand is needed. If due sun or clean up minor contamination a recoat will suffice


Agreed.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

That happened at my parents house too...bubbles all over the place. I asked them how the guy applied it and they said w a roller. Ive worked w resins quite a bit and have dealt with the bubble problem a lot. Im not saying the application process doesnt have anything to do with it but I agree w post that said the guy mixed it too fast. Thats where the bubbles come from. 

The way I get the bubbles out of my mix is to hit it with a torch while its still in the bucket. I get bubbles no matter how slow i mix, so when Im done I pick the bucket up and drop it a few times to get the bubbles to the top and then i hit it with some mapp gas. It pops all the bubbles and goes on smoothe. Be careful tho because most of the stuff that bubbles is also flamable. 

so when i say hit it with the torch i mean real quick. dont set the bucket on fire...lol... and if you do, just stir it or throw a towel over the bucket.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

madrina said:


> That happened at my parents house too...bubbles all over the place. I asked them how the guy applied it and they said w a roller. Ive worked w resins quite a bit and have dealt with the bubble problem a lot. Im not saying the application process doesnt have anything to do with it but I agree w post that said the guy mixed it too fast. Thats where the bubbles come from.
> 
> The way I get the bubbles out of my mix is to hit it with a torch while its still in the bucket. I get bubbles no matter how slow i mix, so when Im done I pick the bucket up and drop it a few times to get the bubbles to the top and then i hit it with some mapp gas. It pops all the bubbles and goes on smoothe. Be careful tho because most of the stuff that bubbles is also flamable.
> 
> so when i say hit it with the torch i mean real quick. dont set the bucket on fire...lol... and if you do, just stir it or throw a towel over the bucket.


You are fing insane. Do you push the gasoline into your car with a flamethrower as well?


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

Metro M & L said:


> You are fing insane. Do you push the gasoline into your car with a flamethrower as well?


Well, you should see how she clears a jammed air nailer 


:jester:


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## Ethos (Feb 21, 2012)

To be fair, it's not as dangerous as it sounds. To be explosive, the fuel would have to be atomized or spilled out all over the place to be really dangerous. If I have a 5 gallon bucket of gasoline and I throw a match in, it would just be a fire on the surface because only the surface is exposed to oxygen, and if you had a lid nearby, you could simply snuff it out.

I've never experimented with how flammable polyurethane is, but if it works for him, who knows?


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Ethos said:


> To be fair, it's not as dangerous as it sounds. To be explosive, the fuel would have to be atomized or spilled out all over the place to be really dangerous. If I have a 5 gallon bucket of gasoline and I throw a match in, it would just be a fire on the surface because only the surface is exposed to oxygen, and if you had a lid nearby, you could simply snuff it out.
> 
> I've never experimented with how flammable polyurethane is, but if it works for him, who knows?


A blow dryer or heat gun will pop the bubbles as well. Just blowing on them will also pop them. But in the scenario he described, I'd say the roller caused the bubbles & not the stirring.

BTW, how'd your project turn out?


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## Ethos (Feb 21, 2012)

Well, I basically told my sub "If there are bubbles in this floor, the HO is going to call me and I'm going to have to call you, so let's just skip all that and get a smooth finish this time around." He did a good job and got it right, so all good. Thank you for your advice everyone! :thumbsup:


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

What product did he use,,,,and what did he use for an applicator?:blink: 





B,


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Metro M & L said:


> You are fing insane. Do you push the gasoline into your car with a flamethrower as well?


Oh come on... It's a small contained fire at best, one that is easily put out. The point is, it works. And thinner works too btw. 
But the torch is best. 

And shut up Latone! Lol You know I didn't do that on purpose! :boxing:


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

madrina said:


> Oh come on... It's a small contained fire at best, one that is easily put out. The point is, it works. And thinner works too btw.
> But the torch is best.
> 
> And shut up Latone! Lol You know I didn't do that on purpose! :boxing:


I know!! Just having a little fun at your expense :jester:

No need for the boxing gloves, I think we will get along just fine :thumbsup:


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

madrina said:


> Oh come on... It's a small contained fire at best, one that is easily put out. The point is, it works. And thinner works too btw.
> But the torch is best.
> 
> And shut up Latone! Lol You know I didn't do that on purpose! :boxing:


It's ok, I started a fire in a house today,I happened to have a wet rag right next to me, so I put it out real quick, then I kept an eye on it for the next 7 hours.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

That's funny..when I first figured out that the torch popped bubbles, I put my cleats on and walked around on the floor I just poured looking for any bubbles I might have missed... I hit a few in the hallway and then hit one and set the hall on fire. I was like HOLY CRAP! Cuz it was like WHOOSH!! But thank god it went I out as fast as it started...I was like oops...little too much lacquer thinner in that batch! Note to self: don't do that again.

How did u start your fire??


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

madrina said:


> That's funny..when I first figured out that the torch popped bubbles, I put my cleats on and walked around on the floor I just poured looking for any bubbles I might have missed... I hit a few in the hallway and then hit one and set the hall on fire. I was like HOLY CRAP! Cuz it was like WHOOSH!! But thank god it went I out as fast as it started...I was like oops...little too much lacquer thinner in that batch! Note to self: don't do that again.
> 
> How did u start your fire??


I hope you're making this shh up.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Contractor: Like your new floor? Wait till you see this! (pulls out torch and ignites floor)

Customer: get out...

Csn you imagine PAYING someone to nearly burn your house down?


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

madrina said:


> That's funny..when I first figured out that the torch popped bubbles, I put my cleats on and walked around on the floor I just poured looking for any bubbles I might have missed... I hit a few in the hallway and then hit one and set the hall on fire. I was like HOLY CRAP! Cuz it was like WHOOSH!! But thank god it went I out as fast as it started...I was like oops...little too much lacquer thinner in that batch! Note to self: don't do that again.
> 
> How did u start your fire??


Got frisky with a torch, after that I ripped out the copper and put in pex. The spot I was sweating in was retardedly small. It was between two joists, but the joists are sitting on an old stone foundation so I had a hole in 1 joist maybe 5" wide by 4" tall, and then about 16" to the side was a basement window so I could get between the joist.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

If you're ever in Dallas, you know who to take bar hopping - just bring a first aid kit, pain killers, and extiguisher


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Driftweed said:


> Csn you imagine PAYING someone to nearly burn your house down?


I didn't think you got paid unless it burns flat:whistling


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

I know a couple guys that blew up a house coating a floor with lacquer


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

ArtisanRemod said:


> I know a couple guys that blew up a house coating a floor with lacquer


Did they spray it or what?

Can't imagine the floor would last very long.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

I'm not sure the exact mixture. They were moonlighting with the owners van and equipment. Wanted to get three coats in two days so they thinned it way out with lacquer I guess. Furnace kicked on and a flash fire ignited the whole house. It went on the owners insurance, and they paid back something like 200 each a week for years.


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## ready to roll (Mar 3, 2013)

Ethos said:


> Yeah, I'd be lying if I said I'd never had to rip out some of my work and redo it. We all get tired, rushed, a bit lazy, but it's the final product that's important :thumbsup:


"But it's the final product that's important" Well said, thanks for the reminder.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

hdavis said:


> If you're ever in Dallas, you know who to take bar hopping - just bring a first aid kit, pain killers, and extiguisher


You talkin bout me?? Cuz I got the pain killers already. Lol

Im risky..what can i say? ...i just try to embrace it. Experimenting is the best way to learn...its the reason we have every thing we have today. How do you know if you don't try?...(aside from the big red letters on the packaging that say FLAMMABLE )

Unfortunately, things can go wrong...and that's why we have insurance!

Ps. I wouldn't set a house on fire IN FRONT of a customer..geez...trust me, that lil tid bit of info is CT exclusive.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

madrina said:


> How do you know if you don't try?...(aside from the big red letters on the packaging that say FLAMMABLE )


LOL, I started with this:

http://www.amazon.com/Nfpa-Manual-H...ywords=Manual+of+Hazardous+Chemical+Reactions

Saves a lot of pain, at least if you're working with stuff you haven't worked with before. I know 2 people that should have read about what they were doing before trying it.

Aside from that, I'm all for trying new stuff, and I don't scare easily. That's either good or bad:laughing:


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Hey davis...thanks for that. I'd actually be interested in reading that. 

I did know lighting the floor w a torch was not the greatest idea... and the whole hallway didn't set fire.. lol maybe I exaggerated. . But instead of just popping the bubble it did whoosh unexpectedly.. scared the crap outta me, for a second anyhow. Lol..lets just say..fires in the bucket ok.. fire on the floor not ok.. I won't do that again. Ive come a long way since that job... it only takes one "almost burning down" of a million dollar building for me to learn a lesson..


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

If I still had a copy, I'd send it to you. Cleaners and pool chemicals are some of the most dangerous things to work with - from there it's vapor and dust explosions, but you already learned that:laughing:


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

ATTACH]101085[/ATTACH]

Speaking of explosions...this couldve been bad...

I'm really not sure what happened here..

I'm assuming since the cord to the airless rig ends right where it touches the ground, that the end of the extension cord got ran over and broke off as it was being drug out to the garage to clean after spraying a floor w solvent based sealer).

I plug it in and BOOM!*** Thank god I had the garage door open for ventilation.. solvent vapor is wicked explosive.* The explosion from the outlet was a bout 3 feet in diameter and it was blue and yellow and orange... I felt some electricity but it wasn't the kind you get from an outlet. It wasn't a "zing" from a 110... it was like holy **** I think I almost got electrocuted.. thank god for rubber....

Of course I'm standing there like wtf just happened and start to follow the cord..was it wet was a prong exposed??* No body noticed that it broke and somehow the can of sealer that we were using got set down on top of the exposed metal.*

So basically it was like tying off some wires to a metal can and sticking the other end in a socket....* In a room so full of vapors you had to have a respirator on.**

I'm quickly reaching the end of my nine lives


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Edit: This stuff with fires and explosions and shorts isn't even funny; it's unnecessary.

Edit again: I'm referring to the actual fires and explosions and shorts and so on. Whether someone posts about it here isn't my problem.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Edit: This stuff with fires and explosions and shorts isn't even funny; it's stupid.


When people do stupid things, they don't realize it at the time. Much better to learn from others' mistakes than make them yourself. I view all these as useful cautionary tales. A cord failure coupled with someone putting a can on top of the cord isn't something that people would think of right off the bat, but it does point out why checking the cord before plugging in is a good idea.


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

Why not use a heat gun to get rid of the bubbles. Its a little safer.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

tyb525 said:


> Why not use a heat gun to get rid of the bubbles. Its a little safer.


I have a heat gun, but I also use a hair dryer - same thing, and they both work.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

or you could just mix the finish about 10 minutes before you use it and voila!..no bubbles..besides..you never will get bubbles stay in your finish from simple mixing.


this spoken fro a guy applying finishes for 25 years..

sorry never the cause oif bubbles..

bubbles are too heavy an app..undry finish..or excessive contamination..
last cause it drying to quick before finish can level..usually a result in heavy AC or Forced air..

the rest is wasted effort


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I haven't done much with the new VOC finishes, but before the reformulations a lot of urethane finishes could be bubbled by application. It's a surface tension / viscosity issue. The simple solution to this was to thin it until the bubbles would pop before it leveled and then surface dried, in that order. Correctly modified, you could scrub it in in all directions, working up tons of bubbles and putting it on thick, and they'd still pop and level. I learned that about 40 years ago, and it makes life much simpler. Shake the can to get bubbles, scrub the finish in to get bubbles, they should all go away. Once you get it worked out for a specific product, put your hair dryer / heat gun / blow torch away.

I have a floor all sanded, so I'll be doing some tests with the new products and see what works best now. I'm assuming the new formulations aren't as forgiving as they could be straight out of the can.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

jamestrd said:


> or you could just mix the finish about 10 minutes before you use it and voila!..no bubbles..besides..you never will get bubbles stay in your finish from simple mixing.
> 
> this spoken fro a guy applying finishes for 25 years..
> 
> ...


Your one of those fruity guys that reads the back of the can arent you?


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Maybe we are speaking about 2 different things... or maybe its just me...I was referring to 2 part epoxys. You can't do much with that stuff except pour it, squeegie it to level and backroll. And then drop your xylene on it..I haven't tried a hair dryer but I have tried a heat weld gun and a big blower that blows hot air, neither of which worked. For one, the bubbles aren't always in a spot by a outlet and good luck trying to hold an extension cord up off the ground by yourself, in cleats across any span longer than the lenght of the hardwired cord itself..AND holding it off the ground when you bend down to hit the bubble.. 2, every time I've used anything that streams air..I always end up blowing some sheetrock dust on my floor.. 

The more you work this stuff, the uglier it looks. So scrubbing is out. And it has a 25 min potlife if you are lucky(& if you thinned) and damn near ten of that is used up during the mixing process. To top it all off the floor has to be seamless so u have to have one bucket after another until its done and by the time your done, you can't touch the floor where you started. Even my cleats leave a mark. Its stressful. No matter how prepped or prepaired you are...something happens and you don't have time to figure out how to fix it.. you just wk w what you have in reach..

Hell it would take you 5 min to take your cleats off and run to your truck to grab somethin..another 5 to get gloved back up and in cleats again.. 

I had bubbles..I grabbed the only thing I saw in sight that I thought would work and not screw up the finish..and it worked.. here's another counter top I did recently


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

madrina said:


> Maybe we are speaking about 2 different things... or maybe its just me...I was referring to 2 part epoxys.


Yes, that's a completely different thing.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Definately talking about 2 different things. Now it makes sense why you were making the suggestions you were. I've worked with the epoxy & yes, a torch works well at popping the bubbles.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

Metro M & L said:


> Your one of those fruity guys that reads the back of the can arent you?


just one of those guys who use common sense..but you nest believe I read them..

funny how finish manufacturers love to change things on the sly.

first tell you use sealer over stain..then tell you not to..watch them..they tricky. little things like that


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Stain?...........

I would never apply that on a HW Floor, .... In fact I refuse to do such a makeover......


It's called white lightening......



Uncle bobs over , has a few cocktails..,,,,,,,,,silly him....:whistling, he looses his balance.......:blink: takes a piece of equipment with him down to meet the floor.....


Whoops!...........


.....and when that metal toaster and bob hit the floor........WOWSERS!


What's all that white lightning screaming from your floor....:blink:

Fixing that is VERY EXPENSIVE.........I will be happy to do it but..$$$$$$$

People that inquire about HW flooring sometimes do not think about longevity ...after wear......


My philosophy....


Purge & Splurge........

I would say to " anyone" that wants things "their way".....

If its not in your budget now,...save.......do it once, do it write, or throw money to me repeatedly,,,,,,

Best option - you win- do it write......if not now, later,....

All depends...

I can spot stain...on anything.....just does not look write,,,,,,,,:blink:

I've seen maple....MAPLE! Stained in walnut.......now me pursonally...I want to up chuck.......



I despise a stained flooring ......but ....

As we all here already know....

We all have our own opinion......


Staining floors ....

The top coating on bars. Flame....totally different animal...I comply with the flame.""..... There is NO getting around it.  Nature of the chemicals,,,..,:laughing:


B,


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

WTF was that all about? ^^^^^:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nEuNk4JMsUM&desktop_uri=/watch?v=nEuNk4JMsUM


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

jamestrd said:


> WTF was that all about? ^^^^^:


Lost me on that one too.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

madrina said:


> Lost me on that one too.


He says he generally agrees with your approach:laughing:


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Did I get off subject again....:blink:


Sorry gentleman ....




B,


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Phew, I thought the ghost of James Joyce hijacked your account:thumbsup:


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Wanted to update this thread in light of a recent discovery... I was at my parents house a few weeks ago and if you remember I told you that they had little bubbles all over their floor, had the guy come back and redo it and had more bubbles. Their contractor told them they would work themselves out and then quit returning my dads calls. 

Well the bubbles were there for a while but this last visit, I noticed they were all gone. I asked my dad if they had finally got the guy to come back and he said no, I said well did someone else come and he said no. I said, so the bubbles worked themselves out? He said yes. And it wasn't just in the path of traffic, they were completely gone even close to the wall. 

So, I don't know how that happened but it did. Just wanted to let it be known for future reference.


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