# Why cut wedge bricks in arches, aethetics or strength?



## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

The video on old virginia brick got me thinking about above subject. Am i right that the reason is fear the wide mortar could damage over time making it look 'rough'? Which looks better?

With the wedge method, you will have mortar down to the intrados, so the mortar is load bearing. Is that better structurally than bricks touching at the intrados?


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Cutting the bricks is a better looking and stronger method, but is more expensive. The best work is gauged or rubbed brickwork where the joints may be only 1 or 2 mm.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

Fundi said:


> The video on old virginia brick got me thinking about above subject. Am i right that the reason is fear the wide mortar could damage over time making it look 'rough'? Which looks better?
> 
> With the wedge method, you will have mortar down to the intrados, so the mortar is load bearing. Is that better structurally than bricks touching at the intrados?


there is more load as the circumference increases ie at the exact spot the bricks will touch there is little bearing. Also widening joints are ugly and errode faster ...depending if row lock or soldier, brick hardly ever meet up for their entire depth or length so laying ''near touching'' magnifies it.
seem you already know this anyhow..heck look at all the clay you'll save..lol


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

stuart45 said:


> The best work is gauged or rubbed brickwork where the joints may be only 1 or 2 mm.


thanks stuart,

best becuase of good looking or strength? 1mm joints what mortar?


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Probably more for looks, although there are many examples around that are hundreds of years old.
The mortar is normally lime putty, although a mix of white lead and shellac was used sometimes for really small joints.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Take to the two logical extremes, an arch that is all mortar, would it stand? or vice versa would the dry laid shaped bricks work?

The answers are Yes and Yes, 

Pre steel lintel years the brick makers made hundreds of special shapes and special sizes of units and combination of both... the diamond saw and alternate construction materials have lead to the extinction of most special brick shapes.

But special shaped brick flat arch and wedge shaped arch brick are available at a substantial cost and several months lead time.....

In general it in my opinion, masonry work that has nearly constant sized joints is considered higher class workmanship then the alternate....there ain't no hole that mortar can't fill at a lower cost than individually sawn units, or more so units that are sawn on two or more faces....

And, yes, Virginia, wedge shaped joints are weaker as they thicken... Anything over 3/4" thick is in general, forbidden on inspected load bearing work.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

Thanks Fourth, stuart, and Francis. Now when i am looking at my arches i am even more acutely aware of my deficiencies! LOL. The 3/4" rule will be my cut off point.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Mortar should be weaker than the masonry, so increasing the amount of mortar should in theory weaken the structure. Also, if you take a non wedge shaped voussoir and suddenly remove all the mortar from around it,(failure because it's the weaker component) it could fall out and the arch would be no more. If you take a wedge shaped voussior and suddenly remove all the mortar it would only partly fall out and the arch would continue to carry the load (provided the width of the voussoir was at least 2x the joint size larger at the extrados as the intrados) I've seen dozens of arches saved by that.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> Mortar should be weaker than the masonry, so increasing the amount of mortar should in theory weaken the structure. Also, if you take a non wedge shaped voussoir and suddenly remove all the mortar from around it,(failure because it's the weaker component) it could fall out and the arch would be no more. If you take a wedge shaped voussior and suddenly remove all the mortar it would only partly fall out and the arch would continue to carry the load (provided the width of the voussoir was at least 2x the joint size larger at the extrados as the intrados) I've seen dozens of arches saved by that.


I HAD TO GET MY DICTIONARY OUT ''except for the wedgie part":laughing:


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

This one seems to contradict? The statements mentioned. Been standing strong for 20 years now.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

BTW No cuts and or keys? Love showing the young guns how it's done. Had to take his photo while he was totally amazed/ memorized.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

http://www.semgonline.com/structures/struct_09.html

Large arches can be built without cutting the bricks as the tapering joints are hardly visible. Most of the old railway bridges were done like this.
However with smaller arches they normally look better cutting the bricks.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

stuart45 said:


> http://www.semgonline.com/structures/struct_09.html
> 
> Large arches can be built without cutting the bricks as the tapering joints are hardly visible. Most of the old railway bridges were done like this.
> However with smaller arches they normally look better cutting the bricks.


The arch I posted is not that big it may seem like it due to the repetition. I've seen hacks OK less skilled masons do much larger or more gradual arches that are quite frankly a big mess. The joint alignment is nearly perfect. As well as joint sizing. Or as close to perfect as was possible. 
I think it's more skill or lack thereof on the quality of the finished product. Less skill more cuts and more joint flaring/wedging inconsistent sizing.
As most know your not going to turn a 2'or 3' arch with out a few cuts and wedging so to speak of joints. Just my take is, highly skilled artisan equals higher quality finished product. As demonstrated clearly in the photos.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

heavyc said:


> As most know your not going to turn a 2'or 3' arch with out a few cuts and wedging so to speak of joints. Just my take is, highly skilled artisan equals higher quality finished product. As demonstrated clearly in the photos.


http://www.theheritagedirectory.co.uk/product.asp?prodid=95
Does not matter how skilled you are, when doing a smaller arch such as the first one in the link you have to cut every single brick. Doing a gauged, rubbed brick arch like that one will take a lot longer than a much bigger arch that tapers the joints.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

stuart45 said:


> http://www.theheritagedirectory.co.uk/product.asp?prodid=95
> Does not matter how skilled you are, when doing a smaller arch such as the first one in the link you have to cut every single brick. Doing a gauged, rubbed brick arch like that one will take a lot longer than a much bigger arch that tapers the joints.


I believe that's exactly what I said? Your not going to turn a 2' or 3' arch without cutting. Called physics+mathematics= impossible.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

heavyc said:


> I believe that's exactly what I said? Your not going to turn a 2' or 3' arch without cutting. Called physics+mathematics= impossible.


I thought you said without a few cuts, not every single brick. Even large arches in rubbbed brickwork have every brick cut. First job after drawing out the arch full size is to rub 2 sides of the brick dead square on a piece of flat stone and then cut them using a wire saw and cutting box.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Heavy, while that arch doesn't have a huge span...maybe 6 or 7'.... because it's a roman arch it still has what 60 or 70 bricks just in the first smallest arch? Many arches that are Jacks or segmental or elliptical of the same span could have as few 1/2 that number. The number of brick in the arch are probably more important than the span. And while that arch is quite nice the first 3 arches have quite distinct tapered joints. 1/8"- 1/16" off each would have made for an even nicer arch.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

stuart45 said:


> I thought you said without a few cuts, not every single brick. Even large arches in rubbbed brickwork have every brick cut. First job after drawing out the arch full size is to rub 2 sides of the brick dead square on a piece of flat stone and then cut them using a wire saw and cutting box.


I don't know where said arches are being installed? But on most residential applications over an arched window I don't think you'll find anyone cutting every brick?
The arch I pictured and referenced has no cuts! and or dissimilar joints! With that being said I'm not qualified to comment any further on your particular applications sorry.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

The main reason for not cutting bricks is the extra cost. However most people not in the trade would probably say that the arch that you posted was the most complex and best looking arch. This is mainly down to it's size and design. 
However all of us in the trade know that all you need is a nail at the striking point and a line pulled off it through the gauge marks on the arch centre will line up the bricks for you.
Setting out an arch and then making all the cuts is much more complex but the end result is not that spectacular for the average man in the street. A lot of people here have painted over their old rubbed arches.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> Heavy, while that arch doesn't have a huge span...maybe 6 or 7'.... because it's a roman arch it still has what 60 or 70 bricks just in the first smallest arch? Many arches that are Jacks or segmental or elliptical of the same span could have as few 1/2 that number. The number of brick in the arch are probably more important than the span. And while that arch is quite nice the first 3 arches have quite distinct tapered joints. 1/8"- 1/16" off each would have made for an even nicer arch.


The photo must not fool the eye like it does in person. Would love to see a photo of a finer example in your hand. Not saying that the photo is perfect 100% But I would love to see one to compare the imperfections. I do believe you must have loaded that photo in a CAD system to narrow down 1/8"&1/16" differences in joints. So your saying you could cut brick to narrow the margins down to millimeter differences or 1/32"? We are talking masonry not surgical incisions.


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