# broken floor warming wire. Options?



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Have a braided single core wire heat mat. So far have used 300-500 volts to arc the core wire. Continuity established. Followed up with a low voltage to warm the wire but the "welded" wire won't hold the low voltage (about 10-20 volts) and breaks again. Have repeated this 4 times. 

Any other options to find this break under the tile? The install is 6 years old.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> Have a braided single core wire heat mat. *So far have used 300-500 volts to arc the core wire.* Continuity established. Followed up with a low voltage to warm the wire but the "welded" wire won't hold the low voltage (about 10-20 volts) and breaks again. Have repeated this 4 times.


Is that an established procedure?


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Any way you know how the wire was run? I know some IT guys that have equipment to send a signal down a wire. When it hits the break in the wire it tells them how far down the wire it is to the break. Thus why you need to know how it was ran.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

There is some equipment that can find it. I had a broken line and the manufacturer was going to send me $5000 in equipment (which I had to lay out a $5000 deposit). I ended up finding the break and didn't need it.

I'll look at who the manufacture was later today.


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## rjconstructs (Apr 26, 2009)

I've used a brand named, 'Warm Tile', on a job that we had difficulties with but I imagine brand type may have less to do with it. If you got 6 years out of it I would say that is pretty good.


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## C'est Moi (Jun 6, 2015)

rjconstructs said:


> I've used a brand named, 'Warm Tile', on a job that we had difficulties with but I imagine brand type may have less to do with it. If you got 6 years out of it I would say that is pretty good.


6 years???? I have floor heat that has been in for 20 years. There isn't a good reason for the wire to go bad unless someone damaged it. T-sats go bad and sometimes the sensors. We usually install 2 sensors just in case one goes awry.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Is that an established procedure?


yes, that equipment was rented from the manufacturer. I think the gap between the broken wire is too large to keep the connection. It arcs well enough but can't hold. 

The other thing is that the arcing causes heat which should be able to be picked up by thermal camera. The wired is buried under 1/4+'" of leveler and 1/4" tile and thinset. It does show some thermal imaging but is frustrating long process of :arc 2-3 seconds, off 2-3 seconds, for 15-30 minutes.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

C'est Moi said:


> 6 years???? I have floor heat that has been in for 20 years. There isn't a good reason for the wire to go bad unless someone damaged it. T-sats go bad and sometimes the sensors. We usually install 2 sensors just in case one goes awry.


Had a factory splice go bad once (same company).( It is within 6-7 months of the same time period) The thought right now is another bad factory splice.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

overanalyze said:


> Any way you know how the wire was run? I know some IT guys that have equipment to send a signal down a wire. When it hits the break in the wire it tells them how far down the wire it is to the break. Thus why you need to know how it was ran.


I may go this route. I ran the wires but can't find my pictures. ( There is a lesson in this). As is the case, some leeway is given in running wires in weird areas. If the signal sent down the wires determines a short length from the thermostat, I would conclude the break is more the factory splice than an installer error.

I just don't want to whack tile out until I've exhausted other methods of determining the break's location.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> I may go this route. I ran the wires but can't find my pictures. ( There is a lesson in this). As is the case, some leeway is given in running wires in weird areas. If the signal sent down the wires determines a short length from the thermostat, I would conclude the break is more the factory splice than an installer error.
> 
> I just don't want to whack tile out until I've exhausted other methods of determining the break's location.


I have one, fluke TS100, but if there is any continuity at the break it will skew the results.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

The manufacturer is sending out their troubleshooter tomorrow. I'll be there to see what he does and to rem/repl the tile. Will let you know what happens.


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## C'est Moi (Jun 6, 2015)

The mfg sent a tool to us to check for the break but we had no luck. They ended up pulling up the entire floor. I was not involved in the install so I don't know. 

In most cases I would think the bad spot is at the first splice where the conductors run up inside the wall.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

here's how it's suppose to work:

http://www.irinfo.org/05-01-2008-durston/


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Success!!!

I have a meeting now but their troubleshooter found the break in the factory splice inside a closet.

First he checked continuity. Then applied a low voltage to the core wire which broke the connection at 4 amps. Re welding the break with a high voltage produced an arc at the break. That arc heated the spot and was located by thermal camera. Why didn't it work for me? I speculate that a heated wall area inside the closet either washed over the break or somehow disrupted the image. Of course, since the owner has been away for a few days, whatever is in that wall is not being used and is now cool.

I'll see about the pictures later.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Here is what the break looks like when high voltage is applied and heats up through arcing of the core wires.

The crossmark is centered on break.The better picture ( which I'm trying to upload) shows a blue background and the break like a hot piece of charcoal.

The blue cool spot in photo is ice. After finding the break, we cooled and reheated wire to confirm the break.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

This image was taken by troubleshooter with the same camera. I need to figure out why his picture was so much better. Any help thermal camera guys?


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

here is the burned connection.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

What the connection looks like uncovered and arcing


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

The hardest part of the repair is removing the thinset without causing more damage to the wires. It can easily take an hour to carefully dig through the thinset. However, if the core wire and the braided wire get welded together, you can induce a low voltage into the system to heat the mat up to the point where it broke. Then using the thermal camera would show the location of those heated wires so you won't hit them.

a side note: this is a slab on grade. I insulated the slab with 1/4" cork thinset to slab, installed the wires, primed, then leveled the floor. I would recommend some form of insulation between slab and wires. I used roll cork but I would use sheets of cork the next time. It would lay better. Of course there are other insulation products as well.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

I appreciate your time to show this. I never knew the arcing method. Good to store in the old bag of tricks.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Thanks for this thread. I hope it never becomes useful information for me, but it is good to know it can be repaired.


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## C'est Moi (Jun 6, 2015)

Was there damage on the jacket also. I was thinking the cable was damaged slighting on install-- maybe while using the trowel,


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

C'est Moi said:


> Was there damage on the jacket also. I was thinking the cable was damaged slighting on install-- maybe while using the trowel,


There is a thicker outer jacket at the splice. Would take a miracle, imo, to cut the wire with a trowel in the splice. The actual heating wire is somewhat thinner. This is the second splice that has failed from this particular manufacturer.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Here are a few tips. Use solder to make the connection rather than the crimp connectors most companies send. (See photo for comparison of crimp vs. solder.)The solder makes a thinner connection. Also, you can pull on the connection to be sure it's solid before heat shrinking.

Be sure to keep the wires intact when stripping the wires. Braided wire can be harder to strip so be careful.

The other tip is to place a string over the thinset before you place the tile. If you need to remove/adjust the tile, you can "cut" the fresh thinset from the back of tile and use the string to pull the tile up.


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## rjconstructs (Apr 26, 2009)

If you used 'Warm Tile' brand, your warranty is now void.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

rjconstructs said:


> If you used 'Warm Tile' brand, your warranty is now void.


How so?


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

rjconstructs said:


> If you used 'Warm Tile' brand, your warranty is now void.


It was done by the factory rep and it's not that brand anyway. Still, how would the warranty be broken?


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Which manufacturer is it? I hope its not the ones I use.....:whistling


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> It was done by the factory rep and it's not that brand anyway. Still, how would the warranty be broken?


When I had my break, I did the same thing and it was all repaired with their tech support on the phone.

Maybe he's talking about the solder versus crimp connection advice, but again, I can't see how that would void the warranty, it's a much better connection.


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## rjconstructs (Apr 26, 2009)

My experience is that whenever a repair is made it voids the manufacturers original warranty. At least it was with that particular brand.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I'm trying to warp my head around that. I am not sure about this install, but let's say that it was under warranty. Clearly this was a manufacturers defect. They send out a troubleshooter and then instruct on the fix I can't see how that would void any future warranty.

Even when I cut the line in my install it didn't void the warranty. As long as I followed their instructions on the repair they were happy to maintain the warranty.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Maybe he's talking about the solder versus crimp connection advice, but again, I can't see how that would void the warranty, it's a much better connection.


From the FWIW department, it's only a better connection electrically. Mechanically, crimps are far superior. Learned that in my previous life as an electronics tech.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> From the FWIW department, it's only a better connection electrically. Mechanically, crimps are far superior. Learned that in my previous life as an electronics tech.


Since it's buried in thinset mechanically isn't a real factor.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

rjconstructs said:


> My experience is that whenever a repair is made it voids the manufacturers original warranty. At least it was with that particular brand.


I'd have a huge problem with that if it was the factory's break.

I don't know what type of break you had. But if was the factory's problem , how is that your fault? I can't understand how a factory problem would void their warranty. (Car companies would love to do this.) Short of repairing it and giving their blessing; would they have paid to remove all the tile, pay for new tile and materials (it would have to match the shower tiles), pay for the labor and provide a new warranty? 

Floor warming wires are a pretty solid install. You really do have to mistreat the wires to have a break. Plus, using the "loudmouth" break detectors let's you know if you've broken a wire right away. That's better than finding out later.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> As long as I followed their instructions on the repair they were happy to maintain the warranty.


This company, too.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Floor warming wires are a pretty solid install. You really do have to mistreat the wires to have a break.


Like a grinder with a diamond wheel? :whistling


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Since it's buried in thinset mechanically isn't a real factor.


That doesn't address the handling before thinset. The best of both worlds would be a connection that's both soldered and crimped.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> That doesn't address the handling before thinset. The best of both worlds would be a connection that's both soldered and crimped.


Sure it does. It's a small amount. Not enough to matter. I learned that from being a low volt electrician for 6 years and the miles of cable I had to solder and crimp. As well as several dozen heated floors we have installed.

But I agree soldered crimp connections would be ideal.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Like a grinder with a diamond wheel? :whistling


Yeh, like that. Unless it was in an impossible spot, I use my circular saw with a tile blade. Set the depth to the tile thickness. Pound out the tile.

Or, if you feel lucky,(well do you?) take a marker and draw the tile depth on the grinder blade and stop cutting when the mark is close to the tile surface.


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

olzo55 said:


> This image was taken by troubleshooter with the same camera. I need to figure out why his picture was so much better. Any help thermal camera guys?


Part has to do with the surrounding temps - as you notice the floor & walls were much cooler allowing the "anomaly" to show up that much clearer when the other shot was taken

I was going to say focus as part originally, but I can see straight lines in yours also, so it appears that wasn't much of an issue though by changing your view angle &/or focus a little it may have come in a little cleaner. For a bit on basics - http://thehtrc.com/2011/day-2-infrared-level-2-training 

Let me just add - for anyone interested in doing/using infrared, taking a Level 1 or basics class is well worth the time & money.


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