# Taking down a wall from a 1920 era home?



## Antropovsky (Apr 12, 2014)

Hi, my friend would like to open up her kitchen to her dining, which was built in 1920.

I was just curious, what are good ways to tell whether or not it's not load bearing. 

I know, I know, seek a engineer... I'm not going to take any actions unless I think it's 100%, but I trust many of the knowledge of the tradesmen on this board, and would love to just hear your input. 

Attached is a picture of what I'm dealing with. I can have more uploaded, if this picture is of poor quality. Don't know how to flip the 1st one, so it isn't backwards. (Sorry).

Thanks for any time taken!


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

Which way do the ceiling joists run? are they parallel to the wall or are the resting on top of it?

A picture from outside of the house,showing the roof would be helpful.

Single story or a two story house?


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

As a general rule of thumb, load bearing walls run perpendicular to the floor joists above.


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## Antropovsky (Apr 12, 2014)

*Removing a Wall on a 1920's home?*

Hi, my friend would like to open up her kitchen to her dining, which was built in 1920.

I was just curious, what are good ways to tell whether or not it's not load bearing. 

I know, I know, seek a engineer... I'm not going to take any actions unless I think it's 100%, but I trust many of the knowledge of the tradesmen on this board, and would love to just hear your input. 

Attached is a picture of what I'm dealing with. I can have more uploaded, if this picture is of poor quality. Don't know how to flip the 1st one, so it isn't backwards. (Sorry).

I posted this in the carpenter thread but in hindsight, maybe this is a better place for it?


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Look in the basement.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

jlsconstruction said:


> Look in the basement.


Yes, if there is is a basement or crawlspace this will give you some clue about what is holding up what. Reading framing can be tough. When I'm not sure I call my framer in for a look-see.

Next step is the engineer so at least you can blame him!:laughing:

How are the rafters above, the floor joists above, and the joist below oriented as opposed to this wall? And is the wall/partition stick built?

Perhaps open up some drywall and post pics of that wall and how the top plates are put together. I don't see much as far as headers but that doesn't mean that there is nothing in the main wall you want to remove.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

FYI, I have merged the two threads you started to avoid confusion.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

My guess is the wall to the right is bearing, and this one is not. 


Disclaimer, I will not be held responsible if the house falls down, check with an engineer.


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## Antropovsky (Apr 12, 2014)

Thanks for all the responses!

The floor joists, definitely run perpendicular. Inside the middle of this wall is a concrete chimney that the furnace is tied into. As it would be too much work to remove the chimney, she'd like to leave it in place. 

This wall is unique, I'll post a couple more photos. It's not a partition, I don't think, because it 90's around the corner, leading to a archway into the kitchen.Kinda curious, what would be in the bulkhead above the fridge. 



Also... I hold full liability for whatever is done to this wall, no-one else of coursa curious, what would be in the bulkhead above the fridge.

Edit. sorry about the horizontal photos, could this be caused by my pictures being too big of kb's?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Antropovsky said:


> .Kinda curious, what would be in the bulkhead above the fridge.


Normally there is not much in these soffits. We rip them out all the time to install full height cabs. Potentially some electric runs that will need to be moved but NORMALLY not much else. Just built down to match the cab height.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)




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## Antropovsky (Apr 12, 2014)

rselectric1 said:


> Normally there is not much in these soffits. We rip them out all the time to install full height cabs. Potentially some electric runs that will need to be moved but NORMALLY not much else. Just built down to match the cab height.


Rigggght the cabinet connection went over my head. I bet your right problem nothing in them. Thanks for your response.

And thank you to jlconstruction for the picture edit.

So because this wall is running perpendicular to the floor joists, it's more than likely a load bearing wall I take it? Would this be a difficult wall to remove then and provide the necessary support for?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Antropovsky said:


> Rigggght the cabinet connection went over my head. I bet your right problem nothing in them. Thanks for your response.
> 
> And thank you to jlconstruction for the picture edit.
> 
> So because this wall is running perpendicular to the floor joists, it's more than likely a load bearing wall I take it? Would this be a difficult wall to remove then and provide the necessary support for?


Open up the drywall or more likely lath and plaster around these walls then post a picture. If the joists lap and rest on this wall, you cant take it down without some alterations or a new source of support. We have no idea what the load is above either so please don't take any opinions you get on this thread as the gospel. Fair warning.


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## Antropovsky (Apr 12, 2014)

rselectric1 said:


> Open up the drywall or more likely lath and plaster around these walls then post a picture. If the joists lap and rest on this wall, you cant take it down without some alterations or a new source of support. We have no idea what the load is above either so please don't take any opinions you get on this thread as the gospel. Fair warning.



Very good advice, thank you. I'm more extreme left Wing than right on this. Where people would be screaming at me to rip it down, but I won't unless I am 99% sure its structurally okay to do so.


Also, I'll remove parts of the wall tomorrow and post new pics, stay tuned!


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

Is there a bean directly under this in the basement? Or a wall above it on the second floor?


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## Antropovsky (Apr 12, 2014)

aaron_a said:


> Is there a bean directly under this in the basement? Or a wall above it on the second floor?


So I've inspected the basement joists. I wish I could say that it's easy to tell what I'm looking at, but it's a pretty confusing maze of joists (no surprise it's 1920's era). I noticed a splice directly beneath the wall wanted to be removed. BUT these splices do not rest on a beam, they rest on a 2x8 turned flat. As you can see by the photos. That 2x8, runs into the concrete wall (which encases the chimney), and on the other side of this concrete wall, a beam leads into it on the other side. 

So by this evidence, I'm beginning to say with more certainty that this is likely a load bearing wall?

I intend to take down the plaster from the wall, when I have a chance to go there, to reveal more of this wall. I'll post that when I do!


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## Antropovsky (Apr 12, 2014)

Update, finally had a chance to remove all the plaster from the wall. The ceiling joists are running parallel with this wall. The floor joists below are running perpendicular to this wall. 

I'm still very unsure if I can remove this wall. Whats the professionals on this websites best "advice"?

This wall runs 9'2", then 90 degrees in 5'7". This wall separates the dining room and the kitchen. Ideally, the home owner would like to remove both the 9'2 wall and the 5'7 wall, opening up the layout. 

In the middle of this wall is a chimney. 

Thanks Everyone.


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## Antropovsky (Apr 12, 2014)

I noticed that some of the photos are turned the wrong way, could a mod flip them for me?

Also, here is a picture of the 90 where the wall returns the opposite way.

Again, the goal is to remove this entire wall.


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## mgb (Oct 31, 2008)

I don't know much about 1920's building practices but if the joists above are parrallel, and there's no headers above the doors.

Where the wall returns perpendicular with the joists as long as they're a full run to that center wall it seems ok. As long as that center wall is bearing down through the crawl to soil.

The beam in the crawl could be just supporting the joist layout and nothing more.

You'd be better off sketching up a floor plan showing beams/joists e.t.c. for us to have a better understanding of whats going on.

No one here is going to tell you to take out the wall. For the peace of mind/assurance I think it would be worthwhile to have an engineer approve the removal.


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