# At a loss with customer, need advice.



## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

dave_dj1 said:


> get some weed and get her stoned, then she will be controllable :laughing:





CookeCarpentry said:


> Just sleep with her and get it over with.
> 
> All the name calling and yelling is sexual frustration.



You two can just stop over any time you want.:laughing:


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Sorry for your predicament. I am with the others that say complete your obligations on the contract, don't contemplate any extras, and submit the final draw.

The client is obviously sick.

I've dealt with a number of these types. I actually had one client run down the stairs screaming at me that she didn't like the way the mirror reflected her. (It was a 100K master bath remodel)

Luckily her husband was home and was able to calm her down.

I don't know how I would have reacted had he not been there and I'm glad I didn't have the "pleasure".

I knew she was "off" but it took me completely off guard.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!:thumbsup:


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## SubwayGuy (Sep 1, 2010)

I had a woman like this one a couple of years ago and I knew right away I wanted nothing to do with her.

She was with her husband for the estimate and they wanted paint work done. They wanted a scrape, sand, prime, and recoat of their two story home. Shingle siding, about 4,000 sqft., no hard to reach areas or roof work, and no fancy trim. As easy a job as you might imagine.

Her home was built in the 1960's, I told her I would have to test for lead paint, and that's where the trouble started. "Why would there be lead paint? That's not necessary." "Ma'am, I have to check all homes built before 1978 because surface preparation and removal of old paint on a lead site creates toxic dust." "What? Really? I just don't think it's necessary."

And of course the test comes up positive for lead paint. Now she seems to hold this against ME as if I'd done the original job years before I was even born. "Why is there lead paint? That's awful. Who would do such a thing?" "Lead paint was standard on homes for many years, ma'am." "That's awful. I've been feeling sick lately. You know, I scraped that house the last time we had it done. Maybe that's why I'm sick!" "Lead poisoning usually doesn't happen unless someone is exposed to high levels of lead for many years, I don't think a few days of scraping would cause that, however that's really something you should check with a doctor, I can't help you with that."

"So what does that mean?"

"It means we'll have to take additional steps to protect the health of my crew, yourself and your husband, and anyone who may be in the area while the work is going on."

"So it's going to cost more?"

"Yes."

"Why can't you just scrape and sand it quickly without doing all that extra stuff?" "Because that would expose my crews to toxic levels of lead dust, as well as you and your husband, and because it's against the law to do so."

After about 5-10 minutes of this hemming and hawwing, she finally lets it go.

I finish the estimate and go inside, present it to her, and give her the price. At this point I figure I'm willing to let the little fiasco go. She looks at the price, and she somehow expected it to be more even though it's a reasonable price for a job of that size (but on the higher side of average), and I really didn't give her any breaks because of her complaining anyway (I build in an extra cushion for customers who seem like they'll be hard to take).

Anyway she discusses with her husband (aka she tells him "let's do this") and I say, OK, we typically ask for 40% up front, then a progress payment of 20% when we show up to do the work, then final 40% on completion. Suddenly she says, "Oh, I don't have that." I tell her that we can't book the job into our schedule without a deposit. Suddenly she gets defensive.

"Oh no no no! There's an organization that's supposed to pay for it. See what happens is they get a copy of the contract and they'll pay you if it meets certain requirements, then we just pay the balance, which is only a couple hundred dollars." "And when does this organization pay?" "I don't know. Normally it takes them a few weeks to process, but I think it's taken as long as 2 months in the past." (RED FLAG) "In 2 months, we're supposed to be finished with the work. I can't do it that way. Is there any other way you can pay for the project." "No, this is it. They're very good." To be fair, I took down the name of the organization, and told her I would investigate it, but that I could not hold a spot for her unless a deposit was made. I also told her the price was fixed for the estimate, and I would get back to her once I'd investigated this mysterious "organization" (which I can't remember the name of).

Anyway, I didn't find anything good, but I didn't find anything bad either. But she made up my mind for me. Not one day later she called us and left an aggressive message demanding to know "when we'd make up our minds" and that she's "definitely chosen us" to do the work and wanted us to get started "as soon as possible." I decided that was it, I'd had it, I didn't want the job. So I called her back and told her that we wouldn't take the job under the current conditions. Turns out I was the third contractor to reject her (gee I wonder why). She demanded that I "start the work as soon as possible" and "give her a date on my calendar" (screaming - at which point it's just crazy talk), and that she'd complain to a consumer agency about us for breach of contract, at which point I politely reminded her that an estimate is not a contract  and told her we still wouldn't be doing the work. It ended with her asking desperately "Who am I going to get to do the work???"

Needless to say I cut bait and run. As a final courtesy to her, I told her that while we wouldn't do the work, I would mention it to someone else to see if they were interested, and if the other contractor was, she'd receive a phone call. She angrily said yes, made a threat that went in one ear and out the other, and then hung up. So I called a contractor I knew (an ex girlfriend ironically ha ha) who was low on work at the time, explained the whole situation and said basically "It's work, but it comes with a price, so you've been warned." Contractor makes a similar bid to mine and actually does the work, and complained to me at least once a week about the lady. I told her what would happen! In the end, she made no money off the job (in the end), although at least her crews did. Job got done, and it took her a couple months with threats of liens to get paid.

Glad I dodged that one.

If the customer's giving you the creeps, I'm with the guy above that said get the hell out of Dodge.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

SubwayGuy said:


> OK, we typically ask for 40% up front, then a progress payment of 20% when we show up to do the work, then final 40% on completion. Suddenly she says, "Oh, I don't have that." I tell her that we can't book the job into our schedule without a deposit. Suddenly she gets defensive.


Why is that not in your contract and what state are you in? 

In California, you legally can not require more than the lesser of 2% or $1,000 until the work has begun, so if you are in Cali, "40% down payment" on contract is one of those unenforceable gibberish.


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## buildpinnacle (Sep 2, 2008)

I guess I'll be the unsupportive one. First, you stated you had 13k left to draw and 1"k in current bills on work to date. That means you still will incur expenses to finish te job if I am reading this right. You have no real incentive other than your character to finish regardless of the situation. I see a couple re flags here. You took 26k up front with 13k at 3/4. Did she pay those on time? Did you take any monies out of the first draws for anything other than job costs? It appears you did or you would have nothing but profit left in the final draw. It's not your money until the job is completed and all bills are paid. Percentage pay schedules front loaded are dangerous bc you think you have money. Bill a 10% deposit with a breakdown of payments due at completion of each trade. The final bill is for job cleanup and demobilization. If that final 13k was your profit and al the bills were current this lady wouldn't be nearly as anoying and you wouldn't even consider puuling off. Just my thoughts.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

aandbreno said:


> My contract states the following: Contractor may suspend work on the job until such time as all payments due have been made. A failure to make payment for a period in excess of *48 hours* from the due date of payment shall be deemed a material breach of this Contract. In addition, the following general provisions apply. So this really doesn't apply to being between the 3/4 and the final payment. This is the payment schedule: Payments of the Contract Price shall be paid in the manner following:
> *Half (50%) of estimate balance #1 dated 7/26/10 shall be paid upon signature of contractor agreement . A1/4 payment will be due at ¾ completion and final balance of estimate plus or minus any authorized change orders to be paid at full completion and final walk through.
> *
> If I walked now, and payed all my subs and took no further "profit" myself, I would be 10K under. Her balance is about 13K.


_From what I understand, you have already recieved 75% of the contract price. 
The balance (25%) on completion will always be hard to recover. Unfortunetly, that is your wages and profit. 
The front money (which you have already recieved) belongs to the suppliers and subs. 

If you are planning on paying subs and suppliers with the balance due, (because the 75% is gone) 
and she doesn't pay, you are in deep grease (unless you have reserves from somewhere else).

The purpose of a contract is to get money up front, pay the suppliers and the subs as you go and have money left over at the end.
When working with a properly executed contract, you can walk away at any time and not be in financial duress. 
_​


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

sooo....can this sub get any or not:turned:


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

this sounds like the homeowner on a house i worked on earlier this year. at first things were mostly good well for the first two weeks. after the engineer came in and spec'd things she made new markings on the drawing stating flush beam where the original called for a dropped beam . she approved the dropped beam both with the architect, engineer and gc, then she changed her mind and made the change on the drawing herself, accused us of missing this on the drawing... woman.
when our framer was framing up the new bathroom he went over the layout of the room with her for 3-4 hours for one single room...... she approved it then our framer built the room, terrible layout by the way. next morning the plumber rought it in. she comes in the afternoon with a new idea for the layout. the plumber was furious, so was our framer.

we had new 4000 sq ft vet clinic in the finishing stages a block away which iwas trimming, but i needed some 15 g nails which were in our greenlee at her house. went over to get some and the front door deadbolt was stuck. she started saying our guys locked the front door then climbed out the back windows which they left unlocked, i checked them all locked, she starting yelling at this point that the windows had to be unlocked . i hadnt been on this job in two weeks since the icf pour and i told her this while she was still screaming i just walked away from her.

every day she had 5 more things she wanted done or would write 3 notes for reminding us of very minor things. even better was how her and her husband were staying in a apartment while the work was going on yet she was having friends stay there who were in town. 

anyhow, things only escalated from this point, she was completely nuts, the general had to come in and set things straight. she was told no more change orders or were gone. when i went in to trim she flipped that we were installing mdf, she wanted virola pine to match the existing. we only allowed $4000 for the trim budget which she was fine with. virola was going to cost more than double her budget. after coming to an agreement it was clear pine getting installed in the basement although we cant get solid clear pine door jamb kits only fingerjoint. she didint like this either, she wanted the jambs to match the existing ( knotty pine jambs)...

i'll wrap this up now.. the general told her were not going to be doing any of the extras she wants simply finishing up the last few things on the contract, anything else she wants done she'll have to find someone else.. we ended up refferring our former trim foreman who was fired for not being reliable mostly to let him suffer for what bs we put up with when he was working for us:w00t:


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## SubwayGuy (Sep 1, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> Why is that not in your contract and what state are you in?
> 
> In California, you legally can not require more than the lesser of 2% or $1,000 until the work has begun, so if you are in Cali, "40% down payment" on contract is one of those unenforceable gibberish.


NY

Of course it's in the contract, but the customer doesn't get a contract until we sit down and sign one. The estimate isn't a contract, although we leave them a copy of the filled out estimate form. Still...It contains that information (payments) on it, this woman in my story above just was clueless and needed everything explained to her!

I believe that both parties should have a significant stake in the arrangement. A customer should demonstrate they are serious about scheduling the work since we're going to be setting time aside for them. Likewise, the final payment should be large enough so that the customer feels they have some pull in terms of ensuring the work meets their approval before they sign off and pay us (although quality should never be an issue).

The woman in my example just did not have a realistic expectation. She wanted someone to come in and recoat a peeling house that had lead paint while doing proper prep, and didn't want to pay extra for that. She wanted to pay nothing up front and have someone else pay for the majority of the work. And she wanted the contractor to do the work with no guarantee that money was ever actually coming. So, I said no.


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## timothytaylor (Sep 6, 2010)

Just have a record of every transaction and if possible, any conversation you had with this client. Who knows when you might need that information if in any case some sort of monetary or legal dispute comes up.

I say, just be a professional; finish the job, get your pay, and charge it to experience. You'll know better next time.


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