# Why Don't They Teach You About Taxes in School?



## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Hopefully this doesn't get moved to the "Off-Topic" section ... but it has a lot to do with business

But why aren't taxes taught in schools? In the big scheme of things, is this less important than Drama or Art classes (I have nothing against the arts and fully support them --- however ... well, you get the gist??)

I'm sorry Peter Pan, but unless you buy yourself another four years in Never never land after high school --- "success" and "survival" in the real world is gonna be determined by your financial skills --- makin it and keepin it

So why is this important aspect of life and business left out??


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

That's a good point. Perhaps there is really no one out there that understands them:thumbsup: 

I wish schools did more to teach business??


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Good question Dirt. Financial responsibility should be taught in elementary schools. Most importantly it should be ingrained by parents too.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

That used to be part of the home economics course that they taught the girls along with sewing and cooking when I was in school. I'm not even sure if they teach home economics now.

I know in my area, there's a big push for financial literacy among students. These folks: http://www.jumpstartcoalition.org/ seem to be at the front of it. I know that these skill sure would have helped give me the jumpstart that would have been most helpful. From what I've been reading in the paper, some states (mine included) is considering some sort of 'Financial Literacy Act' to add such things to the curriculum.


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## Debookkeeper (Jul 23, 2006)

Most of the highschools have a few business classes that touch on the subject - but they are electives. My son took a "Money & Personal Finance" class that taught the kids how to handle a checkbook, and reconcile, different kinds of interest, investing your money, etc. When he graduated highschool, he still proceeded to blow all his money. :laughing: ...I put that to an immediate halt!! I took all those business classes when I was in highschool too. The accounting 101 class my daughter is taking gets into payroll taxes, so an understanding of withholding taxes it taught. Certainly not enough to prepare anyone, and I can teach them all I want - but what kid wants to listen to their mother. 

Btw - my daughter wants to be an accountant :clap: :clap:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

dirt diggler said:


> Hopefully this doesn't get moved to the "Off-Topic" section ... but it has a lot to do with business
> 
> But why aren't taxes taught in schools? In the big scheme of things, is this less important than Drama or Art classes (I have nothing against the arts and fully support them --- however ... well, you get the gist??)
> 
> ...


Isn't that what college is for? From your post I am guessing that you think college is out of the question for anyone going into the trades? I agree as long as they want to be an employee or a tradesman all there life or at least for a very long time and then slowly try to be in business for themselves and learn everything in the school of hard knocks, but if they want to be a business owner, they need a college education, business in construction is no different then business in any other field.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Debookkeeper said:


> Most of the highschools have a few business classes that touch on the subject - but they are electives. My son took a "Money & Personal Finance" class that taught the kids how to handle a checkbook, and reconcile, different kinds of interest, investing your money, etc.


I can still remember in 5th grade back in 1977 one day the teacher passed out all these check books and we spent about 3 hours going over what it was and how it worked. I've never heard of anybody experiencing that since.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Business math is not that complicated for the most part. Takes a 10th grade math education to deal with some of it, and a 5th grade at most for the rest of it. If you can do long division, you can do most business math.

Why kids are not taught the basics is beyond me. We're willing to teach them how to do differential equations and calculus, which is infinitely less useful to most jobs than a simple business accounting class would be. 

As far as the checkbook balancing goes, this seems to be a great mystery to many folks. I have a friend that can add, subtract and divide fractions in his head quick as a wink, but he still brings his statement and checkbook to me once a month for help in reconciling.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Double-A said:


> Why kids are not taught the basics is beyond me. We're willing to teach them how to do differential equations and calculus, which is infinitely less useful to most jobs than a simple business accounting class would be.


This shouldn't be a mystery. The USA population is what 300 million? What is the percentage of employees to business owners in the work force? 100,000 to 1? 10,000 to 1? I have no idea what the true number would be, but it's obvious the percentage of people who are going on to be business owners is pretty tiny compared to those who will go on to be employees. Public education is there for the masses and the lowest common denominator, it's job is to establish a broad and generic base of education, college and beyond is there for specialization.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Isn't that what college is for? From your post I am guessing that you think college is out of the question for anyone going into the trades? I agree as long as they want to be an employee or a tradesman all there life or at least for a very long time and then slowly try to be in business for themselves and learn everything in the school of hard knocks, but if they want to be a business owner, they need a college education, business in construction is no different then business in any other field.


I was going to respond to this post in more detail.....but perhaps it's best to plead the 5th


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

copusbuilder said:


> I was going to respond to this post in more detail.....but perhaps it's best to plead the 5th


Hey go for it. I'm not stupid, I am fully aware that I'm posting this on a board that is filled with construction business owners, the vast majority of them with nothing more than a high school diploma. Self evident that there is plenty of evidence that you don't need an education to be a contractor, even a successful contractor or even to create a large contracting business doing millions of dollars in revenue.

The question isn't whether you can do it or not with no additional education, the issue is how much longer does it take, how much harder is it, or more to the point how much easier would it be to be a successful contracting business owner if you had a background that covered business? You learn and become proficient in your trade skills pretty quickly and pretty early. But for the majority, they then spend years and years, maybe their entire life never mastering the facets of business, such as taxes, marketing, finance etc... For a lot of us the more successful you become at contracting the less the trade skills are as important, you start using more subs, employees, lead carpenters, your focus falls less and less on individual and day to day trade skills and day to day business skills are your tools you start having to use every day. 

The fact that this thread is started regarding somebody bringing up the issue of wouldn't it be so much easier for everyone if they taught you college level courses and unique and targeted information in high school shows that everyone knows that the more education you have means a smoother road to success.

So we can side track the issue and go down the road of the self-made man. There is no doubt that anyone with enough drive and ambition can get as successful or even more than any bright graduate of Harvard. But be realistic because taking the average uneducated contractors income and comparing it to the averages of even the most dim witted Harvard business school grad and they aren't even going to be in the same ball park.


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## Dustball (Jul 7, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> I can still remember in 5th grade back in 1977 one day the teacher passed out all these check books and we spent about 3 hours going over what it was and how it worked. I've never heard of anybody experiencing that since.


I did the checkbook thing when I was in 7th grade back in the early 90's. I also sewed a pillow too arty:


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Mike, That seems like a 180 from the previous post 

Of course education is important. But to say 

I agree as long as they want to be an employee or a tradesman all there life or at least for a very long time and then slowly try to be in business for themselves and learn everything in the school of hard knocks, but if they want to be a business owner, they need a college education, business in construction is no different then business in any other field.

I think that statement is ludicrous and insulting to many. 

And assuming that diggler thinks anyone in the trades cannot go to college seems to be putting words in his mouth.

Now drop and give me twenty:no:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> The fact that this thread is started regarding somebody bringing up the issue of wouldn't it be so much easier for everyone if they taught you college level courses and unique and targeted information in high school shows that everyone knows that the more education you have means a smoother road to success.


I'm not so sure that learning about taxes and balancing a checkbook is very unique or targeted. Well all have to deal with that sort of stuff.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Not meant to be insulting. Every baby born has the chance to become successful. The reality is the majority won't. 

#1 Either you believe that information will make your goals attainable faster or you don't. 

#2 If you do believe this then it's a simple process to understand that if information is the key to success then the faster you aquire information the faster your success can be attained.

I'm not going to get into an arguement over the meaning of the word "the" as so quickly so many times happens here.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

The point of my post was not to make businesspeople out of everyone, but we all deal with businesses. So, why should the economics of business be a mystery or a college course? Much of what applies to business math-wise will also apply to running a home or personal finances. Knowing some terms and concepts can only be a good thing. Education never killed anyone, despite what my son says.

Math is math, only the nut on the end of the pencil changes.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Double A have you ever read the '_famous'_ Rich Dad/Poor Dad book?

Kiyosaki fills it with examples from his poor dad (who is a school teacher) about how the public school system is set up to turn out employees.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> Hopefully this doesn't get moved to the "Off-Topic" section ... but it has a lot to do with business
> 
> But why aren't taxes taught in schools? In the big scheme of things, is this less important than Drama or Art classes (I have nothing against the arts and fully support them --- however ... well, you get the gist??)
> 
> ...


I agree with you Dirt. Learning some real life skills would've been nice- like about credit cards, and just basically some good skills that would've landed a decent job, so people could support themselves immediately after high school, for those who couldn't afford college. 

For me, I took all these college prep and AP classes, for absolutely NO reason, because my parents moved away the minute I graduated, so I had to support myself, AND try to pay for and go to school- it was impossible.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Isn't that what college is for? From your post I am guessing that you think college is out of the question for anyone going into the trades?


Nope :no: --- waaaaay out of context. Not even relevant to what i was saying. Out of coffee this morning?? :jester: 

The post isn't concerning business exclusively

But everything like paying property taxes, quarterlies, credit cards, investing. Not only do bus. owners struggle with learning this --- but everybody else does too.

And why should this be reserved for higher education?? Why not start it in elementary school along with reading?? Again, I'm all for finger painting, PE, history, biology (well, maybe not bio) --- but why not teach sound financial skills??

Mike, I do agree with you that schools breed employees. I think that's right on target.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> But everything like paying property taxes, quarterlies, credit cards, investing. Not only do bus. owners struggle with learning this --- but everybody else does too.


Agreed. The business of taking care of personal business and taking care of a real business are close to one in the same math and skills wise, only the scale and details change to any large degree.

As for schools turning out employees, I'd say that is right on the money, but they do a poor job of that, sorry to any one with loved ones in teaching profession. I'm not taking shots at them. I think its the folks that determine curriculum that need a dose of reality.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Double-A said:


> but they do a poor job of that, sorry to any one with loved ones in teaching profession. I'm not taking shots at them. I think its the folks that determine curriculum that need a dose of reality.


Double A --- I don't think you need to apologize for that. I have relatives, whom I love dearly, and they are teachers. There are some VERY EXCELLENT TEACHERS OUT THERE AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE --- AND YOU BELONG IN YOUR PROFESSION.

However, many of them do not. They are lazy, whiney, and want the gov't to help them tie their shoes. I know 3 teachers who are potheads. It infuriates me.

I could go on ... but like I said, this thread was straddling the fence already on being off-topic


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

dirt diggler said:


> Nope :no: --- waaaaay out of context. Not even relevant to what i was saying. Out of coffee this morning?? :jester:
> 
> The post isn't concerning business exclusively
> 
> ...


I've always been a big proponent of parents taking some responsibility to not only raise, *but to educate *their children. Sure you've got the case of a father in construction taking his son to work and teaching him building skills as he grows up, or taking his son hunting and teaching him hunting skills, or teaching him how to work on the hot rod and teaching him mechanical skills...

... well? Why can't a parent sit down and teach their kids how to balance a check book, how to manage credit? Maybe because the parent doesn't have the ability to teach the child because the parent doesn't know the material in order to be able to teach it?


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

and I couldn't agree more with you on that as well


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## Debookkeeper (Jul 23, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> But everything like paying property taxes, quarterlies, credit cards, investing. Not only do bus. owners struggle with learning this --- but everybody else does too.
> 
> And why should this be reserved for higher education?? Why not start it in elementary school along with reading?? Again, I'm all for finger painting, PE, history, biology (well, maybe not bio) --- but why not teach sound financial skills??



I am going to attempt to get my point across, and although I agree with you, it has to start at home first. Children have no concept of money, value or even respect it. When most of society today is indulging children, and handing them everything - the whole concept is lost. You cannot appreciate your money or material objects until you are out there working your arse off for it yourself. My kids stepmother just handed her 7 yo a 200.00 PSP last week, because he was behaving for 3 days.  I have seen this with so many of my kids friends. They have no respect for their personal belongings, they certainly won't have any respect for a teacher trying to teach them sound financial skills. Just my .02 worth.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

I gotta agree with you to Debooks

maybe there isn't a solution to my question. I'm not much into sociology anyways. Although, instead of sociology in high school, I woulda been better served with a REAL accounting class



is Nathan on vacation --- I'dda thought this one would get moved to "Off-Trade Talk" by now

:laughing:


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> I've always been a big proponent of parents taking some responsibility to not only raise, *but to educate *their children. Sure you've got the case of a father in construction taking his son to work and teaching him building skills as he grows up, or taking his son hunting and teaching him hunting skills, or teaching him how to work on the hot rod and teaching him mechanical skills...
> 
> ... well? Why can't a parent sit down and teach their kids how to balance a check book, how to manage credit? Maybe because the parent doesn't have the ability to teach the child because the parent doesn't know the material in order to be able to teach it?


I certainly agree with that. Another idea would be when a couple becomes parents send them to Parenting College! :w00t: 

My parents were soooo busy, divorced, and new kids (6 total), my dad worked a night shift, and all of us kids had night jobs and were in sports, etc, I mean, it was just always so crazy. 

And teaching is not an easy skill, and for some reason, it's even harder when it's your own kids, (or maybe that's just me- and mine isn't even 4 y.o. yet!). My dad did try to help me with my homework a couple of times, being the math whiz that he is, but he would end up getting so frustrated with me. 

So, then again, maybe it is something schools should teach.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Mainly, my problem is not communicating this thread correctly 

let me try again:

History (World or US? you pick)
Math (Algebra, Geometry, Calculus [ if you survived Algebra:no: ])
Psychology
English
Home Ec
Art
Music
PE
Drama
Computer Science
Business & Marketing 

These are the primary subjects a child will take from grades K-12. Okay? 12 years. To the age of 18. So for 18 years of life --- that is what you learn.

Now, here are the concerns you will face upon turning 18:


Budgeting
Taxes (fed & local)
Balancing your Checkbook
Tracking receipts so your debit card doesn't OD
Mortgages
Other financing (i.e. car, etc.)
Interest Rates


Ok ... nothing wrong with studying the French Revolution. Good stuff (really, it is very interesting IMO) and nothing wrong with playing dodgeball and makin stuff bubble in science class.

However

The "courses" in the latter schedule are very very rarely touched on.


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## BreyerConstruct (May 22, 2006)

Education is important. Financial education is paramount, right up there with moral/ ethical education. 

College, trade schools, high school... all are good sources of enucation, but all have pitfalls. I've seen countless friends go to college, relax, allow bottle-feeding for 4-5 years, then flounder in life, unsure of how to make things happen. 
Good education available, poorly adapted & understood.

I don't remember who it was earlier, but a good point was brought up. It is, ultimatly, the parents responsibility to teach their children. No school is a good substitute for a parents time & love & knowledge. However, schools & traditional education can play a cruxial role in assisting a parent, and supplementing in areas where the parent is weak. To keep this on topic, business classes, managment, personal finance, and others would be perfect classes taught at a school if a parent didn't feel qualified to instruct in these areas. But... they could spend the time to help set them up & reasearch the courses. 

I'm very tired, so I might be rambling. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes. BTW, check out Robert Kiosoli's (sp?) book on education, Rich Kid, Smart Kid, very good stuff!

Final question, we're all here venting on the lack of financial education for our kids...what can we do to improve it?

~Matt


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## Jon F (Jul 15, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> Mainly, my problem is not communicating this thread correctly
> 
> let me try again:
> 
> ...



BINGO. I've been saying this as well.....cannot understand it for the life of me. And I HAVE a college education....unless you major in one of those fields (i.e. accounting) you won't learn it either. You might get some fluff in a biz class on deficits, inflation, etc.....but not a lot of "real world" help. Just general info like maintaining good credit, understanding mortgages, lending, taxes, etc......people should have a slight grasp on this by the time they leave high school....even if it is just an introduction. Some parents aren't equipped to educate them. I had friends that graduated high school, went to the city, got a union const. job making a decent wage, and then went to the new car lot and bought a new truck AT STICKER PRICE. Didn't realize you could negotiate. Not asking a school to fix 'stupid', but a kick in the right direction, as opposed to being forced to study Shakespeare or Picasso or something else with no practical application might be nice.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

John Fife gets me


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

Mike is right in his points, but like Dirt says why don't the schools do a better jobs with the kids in this country? That falls on the Goverment and how they have run public schools from the being. They don't teach kids everyday life, they teach all these fuzzy warm feelings. instead of giving kids the hard cold facts about what life is really like in the real world. But like they say too you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, It's up to each individual to bring something to the table. I look at the Family as the foundation of children, if the parents have no time to teach their children about life at a young age then they will be part of the 2/3 of the American people who rent a house versas buying a house. also there are 38% of the people out there, that are idiots that is a fact, so then I would say it all falls back on the parents who drop the ball. I have two kids one is working his butt off wrenching on cars making $8.50 an hour, my other one is going to study Medical Billing which she could make around 65k a year and up. I have stood behind them in their choices, I told them they can go towards their goals either the high road or the low road. I tell them life is choices you make some are good others are wrong ,but you'll be the one who lives them. Like Forest Gump said "Life is a box of chocolates you don't know what you'll get intil you bite into one" If you have children always tell them to questions what someone might say. Don't take anything as the truth.
If the schools had in place a check and balances of children and held the teachers accountable for their students, then maybe we would have a more productive student body. But like I said they( School Administration) want to teach the liberal warm and fuzzy feelings.:w00t:


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Frankawitz said:


> Mike is right in his points, but like Dirt says why don't the schools do a better jobs with the kids in this country? That falls on the Goverment and how they have run public schools from the being. They don't teach kids everyday life, they teach all these fuzzy warm feelings. instead of giving kids the hard cold facts about what life is really like in the real world. But like they say too you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, It's up to each individual to bring something to the table. I look at the Family as the foundation of children, if the parents have no time to teach their children about life at a young age then they will be part of the 2/3 of the American people who rent a house versas buying a house. also there are 38% of the people out there, that are idiots that is a fact, so then I would say it all falls back on the parents who drop the ball. I have two kids one is working his butt off wrenching on cars making $8.50 an hour, my other one is going to study Medical Billing which she could make around 65k a year and up. I have stood behind them in their choices, I told them they can go towards their goals either the high road or the low road. I tell them life is choices you make some are good others are wrong ,but you'll be the one who lives them. Like Forest Gump said "Life is a box of chocolates you don't know what you'll get intil you bite into one" If you have children always tell them to questions what someone might say. Don't take anything as the truth.
> If the schools had in place a check and balances of children and held the teachers accountable for their students, then maybe we would have a more productive student body. But like I said they( School Administration) want to teach the liberal warm and fuzzy feelings.:w00t:



You couldn't be righter

I've prolly worn this one out ---


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