# outlets not working



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

ok try to keep it simple.

1 outside outlet not working..checked power with meter. reset button fully depressing but not engaging..(not tripping)

1 wall in kitchen has 3 outlets on wall.
1 in middle working..same wall as sink.

outlets between 2 sets of switches, however switches do NOT control the outlets..all lights in kit working.
all switches working.

1 other outlet in kitchen has dimmer switch.this outlet not working, but i am getting a voltage reading of about 12 volts.

3 outlets in DR not working. and 2 in LR.

now ,I assume this is a GFI circuit. what confuses me is the 3 outlets in kit over sink where one is fully functioning, but the other 2 not.

I checked all breaker, only 2 GFI breaker in box. both were ok, but tested and reset breakers.
nothing happened.

no voltage reading in outside front outlet.
All other outside receptacle and circuits are working. Pool house etc rear outlet on deck and by pool working..

do you think the front outside outlet is the problem? defective?...what is best way to determine this? see if voltage in lines?..all other GFIs in home are in tact and untripped..tested and reset them anyway.

thanks for the help..


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

jamestrd said:


> ok try to keep it simple.
> 1 outside outlet not working..checked power with meter. reset button fully depressing but not engaging..(not tripping)
> 1 other outlet in kitchen has dimmer switch.this outlet not working, but i am getting a voltage reading of about 12 volts.
> help..


Hire an electrician and don't quit your day job.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Loose connection somewhere. Divide and conquer.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

You need to call an electrician. When it involves killing someone and or burning down their house it's not worth free advice from the internet.

Sparkys run pipe to different places for different reasons. Throw in a reno or two and you will have no idea what is going on.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Is today April Fool's Day? Ken offering electrical advice and everyone else telling ohe OP to hire an electrician???:laughing:


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I will attempt to help a bit.

If you push the reset button, (I assume this is an exterior GFCI outlet), and it won't engage, the outlet either has a fault, or has no power. The test button is what should trip the outlet, though, not the reset button.

It is possible for the middle outlet in the kitchen to be on a different circuit for a variety of reasons. That _could_ be why it still works.

As 480 said, a loose connection seems probable. You need an understanding of electricity and wiring methods to even begin diagnostics, though. There is a logical reason why electricians trouble shoot the way they do, and it's impossible to teach troubleshooting, and not teach electrical theory. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I can't just say, "Oh, just go replace outlet number 2 and you're good to go".

The place to start would be to trace out the circuit, find which breaker goes to this circuit, turn off the breaker, and trace the circuit back to the panel, one outlet at a time, starting with the middle one, till you find the problem.

If all breakers are on, yet you have a dead outlet, or string of outlets, then the place to begin is the first outlet in the line that is dead. Figuring out which is the first dead one in line is the tricky part.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

THX ATC..I understand fully what you're saying.

but since none of these outlets are GFI outlets,wouldn't it make sense then that the breaker must be?

and if that's the case, there are only 2 in the panel and they are both not tripped..I did test, turn off and reset them..

I replaced a couple outlets in my dog kennel which were GFI suspecting this may be the issue as an outlet was fried in there..I think possibly due to too many GFI's in it..
not sure.

truth be told, this has been this way a long time now.. i finally got a bug in my ass after setting up Xmas lights and not being able to use that outside outlet..

as for the others, just ignored them and got by.

now finally on it.

as of now , all GFI outlets are working and set..same for both breakers..

at least as far as I believe.

the outside outlet in question looks like it was watertight, with sealant around it,gasket etc..no corrosion or visible signs that water may have entered..

I
will keep at it..dont mind the challenge..if i cant get it,,guess i gotta call an electrician next week.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

I vote electrician too! No sense in getting anyone hurt.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

A.T.C. said:


> I will attempt to help a bit.
> 
> If you push the reset button, (I assume this is an exterior GFCI outlet), and it won't engage, the outlet either has a fault, or has no power. The test button is what should trip the outlet, though, not the reset button.
> 
> ...


I like it that you say:

"You need an understanding of electricity and wiring methods to even begin diagnostics, though. There is a logical reason why electricians trouble shoot the way they do, and it's impossible to teach troubleshooting, and not teach electrical theory."

And then continue to tell him how to T/S. Mixed signals. If he doesn't know how to T/S this, any advice is dangerous advice. This is not how to put up crown molding, this is electrical troubleshooting.


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I like it that you say:
> 
> "You need an understanding of electricity and wiring methods to even begin diagnostics, though. There is a logical reason why electricians trouble shoot the way they do, and it's impossible to teach troubleshooting, and not teach electrical theory."
> 
> And then continue to tell him how to T/S. Mixed signals. If he doesn't know how to T/S this, any advice is dangerous advice. This is not how to put up crown molding, this is electrical troubleshooting.


When you start with electrical, you have to start somewhere. Maybe he's made up his mind that he's going to figure out basic electrical and this is his start.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

RemodelGA said:


> When you start with electrical, you have to start somewhere. Maybe he's made up his mind that he's going to figure out basic electrical and this is his start.


Well said, when I started I bought most the specialty tools, prepared myself to be electrocuted, and watch my electricians like a hawk. I was very lucky to have one which didnt mind helping me learn, at $55 per hour of course. :whistling:


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

You are right, Rob, and I thought about that. On one hand, it is difficult to explain how to troubleshoot a problem to someone who doesn't understand electrical. On the other hand, I don't just want to be another guy who says, "Call an Electrician" every time. Not that that might not be the best answer, I don't know. But I like to think that when dealing with a fellow tradesman, they have the good sense to know when they are in over their head. I would never do the same for a DIYer. I like to assist here when I can. Perhaps I am really just doing a disservice, I don't know.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

A.T.C. said:


> You are right, Rob, and I thought about that. On one hand, it is difficult to explain how to troubleshoot a problem to someone who doesn't understand electrical. On the other hand, I don't just want to be another guy who says, "Call an Electrician" every time. Not that that might not be the best answer, I don't know. But I like to think that when dealing with a fellow tradesman, they have the good sense to know when they are in over their head. I would never do the same for a DIYer. I like to assist here when I can. Perhaps I am really just doing a disservice, I don't know.


I enjoy yours posts!


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I enjoy yours posts!


Thank you. I appreciate that. Sometimes I wonder why they haven't banned me yet.:laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RemodelGA said:


> When you start with electrical, you have to start somewhere. Maybe he's made up his mind that he's going to figure out basic electrical and this is his start.


I am sorry, but it is wrong to practice on someone's home. You don't start anywhere. You hire someone to do it and shadow them asking questions. Electrical is not like other trades. Someone can easily die.

Buy some books, go to the library, shadow an electrician, hell take a class, but don't experiment on someone's home. Why isn't that common sense?


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

So then how does a contractor expand their offerings if they never try something new on a client's home? If a contractor is not in over their head, and only they can say when they are, and they can ask the right questions and do their own research and they feel comfortable that they can do what needs to be done and do it properly, I say more power to them.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

The purpose of this forum is for trades to exchange information. I am on board. Look at my posting history and you will see that 95% of the time I am doing just that.

In this case (electrical, multiple rooms, possibly multiple circuits, etc...) I am advising to hire a pro and let him fix the problem. If I left out for the OP to shadow him to see what he does and how he works, I am sorry.

For the record: OP hire a pro and watch what he does and ask questions.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:



> I am sorry, but it is wrong to practice on someone's home. You don't start anywhere. You hire someone to do it and shadow them asking questions. Electrical is not like other trades. Someone can easily die.
> 
> Buy some books, go to the library, shadow an electrician, hell take a class, but don't experiment on someone's home. Why isn't that common sense?


All trades people practice on site. Thats the way it goes. When we are small wheels on large projects I often times see greenhorn electricians. When properly supervised and instructed it works and they learned and the company benefits from their education and labors. Im pretty sure thats the way everyone got their start. So long as the greenhorn isnt going outside his abilities in an unsupervised manor there is no problem with someone learning as they go.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am sorry, but it is wrong to practice on someone's home. You don't start anywhere. You hire someone to do it and shadow them asking questions. Electrical is not like other trades. Someone can easily die.
> 
> Buy some books, go to the library, shadow an electrician, hell take a class, but don't experiment on someone's home. Why isn't that common sense?



He's a flooring contractor, and it was my understanding that he was learning about electrical on his own home, not a clients.




jamestrd said:


> I replaced a couple outlets in my dog kennel which were GFI suspecting this may be the issue as an outlet was fried in there..I think possibly due to too many GFI's in it..
> not sure.
> 
> truth be told, this has been this way a long time now.. i finally got a bug in my ass after setting up Xmas lights and not being able to use that outside outlet..
> ...


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

A.T.C. said:


> He's a flooring contractor, and it was my understanding that he was learning about electrical on his own home, not a clients.


In ohio if you dont have a mortgage you can do anything you want to your home :whistling:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

A.T.C. said:


> He's a flooring contractor, and it was my understanding that he was learning about electrical on his own home, not a clients.


How did you come to that understanding? The OP mentions nothing about it being his home. It wasn't until after you gave advise that he indicated it was his own home.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> All trades people practice on site. Thats the way it goes. When we are small wheels on large projects I often times see greenhorn electricians. When properly supervised and instructed it works and they learned and the company benefits from their education and labors. Im pretty sure thats the way everyone got their start. So long as the greenhorn isnt going outside his abilities in an unsupervised manor there is no problem with someone learning as they go.


Then we are in agreement. 
*
When properly supervised and instructed it works and they learned and the company benefits from their education and labors. *

My goodness people, why do I post one thing and you hear another. Of course we learn on site, but as you said, it's properly SUPERVISED and INSTRUCTED...

Sorry but a few post responses on the internet makes not a properly supervised or instructed scenario.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Then we are in agreement.
> 
> When properly supervised and instructed it works and they learned and the company benefits from their education and labors.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

And for the record, I am not the only one to give this advice, even after knowing it was his own home.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Uhmm... Good question. I don't know. Saturday morning, outlet troubleshooting question from a flooring guy, I just guessed, I guess.

I agree with you, Rob. I am all for qualified training. I am just trying to be a helpful member here, that's all.

I think it's time for me to bow out of this thread now. I didn't intend to cause a problem.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

A.T.C. said:


> Uhmm... Good question. I don't know. Saturday morning, outlet troubleshooting question from a flooring guy, I just guessed, I guess.
> 
> I agree with you, Rob. I am all for qualified training. I am just trying to be a helpful member here, that's all.
> 
> I think it's time for me to bow out of this thread now. I didn't intend to cause a problem.


:thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

A.T.C. said:


> Uhmm... Good question. I don't know. Saturday morning, outlet troubleshooting question from a flooring guy, I just guessed, I guess.
> 
> I agree with you, Rob. I am all for qualified training. I am just trying to be a helpful member here, that's all.
> 
> I think it's time for me to bow out of this thread now. I didn't intend to cause a problem.


ATC my tone isn't being conveyed. You are being helpful. I just disagree with it. Don't bow out, your assumption was correct. Keep up the good posts. Nothing you said was inaccurate or out of line. My opinion is just that, my opinion. Tell me to shove it up my arse.

No harm no foul, keep posting and do what you think is right.

I have a lot of respect for you and wanting to be apart of CT. :thumbsup:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> ATC my tone isn't being conveyed. You are being helpful. I just disagree with it. Don't bow out, your assumption was correct. Keep up the good posts. Nothing you said was inaccurate or out of line. My opinion is just that, my opinion. Tell me to shove it up my arse.
> 
> No harm no foul, keep posting and do what you think is right.
> 
> I have a lot of respect for you and wanting to be apart of CT. :thumbsup:


:happyfacekissingbutt:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> :happyfacekissingbutt:


Is that your new Native American name?

And I am trying not to discourage new members from posting. Thank you very much. He has the right attitude and stuck up for it. I can respect that. :thumbsup:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Is that your new Native American name?
> 
> And I am trying not to discourage new members from posting. Thank you very much. He has the right attitude and stuck up for it. I can respect that. :thumbsup:


No I agree with you. I just get a kick out of trying random commands. One day Ill find one no one has seen. It will be epic! Or not. We cool.

To the op. The advise offered to you was diverse and good. Please continue to post....


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

I think i have either a break or a disconnected neutral wire somewhere.
tomorrow i will open up the other outlets and see .

if everything is tight and well connected...then i will just try oricess and elimination.

I am not playing electircian, but just tackling something i think i can handle with a little skilled advice.

I would never try to wire a home or the like..but the circuits are here, and i suspect it is somethignsimple.

way back i went to HS for AC, so got some basic electrical study on the books, then in the field, but i shifted towards flooring, cuz thats where life got me.

i worked on industrial air compressors and serviced them in the field, so basic control panel and electrical was needed..its just been so long.

i have no idea what circuits are to what breakers as they are mislabeled and changed.
although i agree that with some of the comments, this condition has been existing for a very long time,.so obviously not threatening anything..something is wrong somewhere and I am seeking advice as to best approach to determine where.

i know its near impossible considering no one can see it.

I am getting power to 2 outlets not working, but the neatral seems to be open(right term?) somewhere.
2 kit outlets getting no ppwer..haven't opened the 2 in LR yet, nor the outside outlet yet.

may do that tomorrow,, but probably not,..the Giants are on


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

Have you noticed that none of the replies with giving advice are from Electricians? If you don't know enough of theory, it will be very hard for you to troubleshoot, especially if you don't know how to read a multimeter on voltage & RESISTANCE & how to go about troubleshooting your problem, you are working in the dark.
My statement doesn't mean to criticize you for trying,as you might easily find a wire off somewhere, but to realize it takes some electrical savvy to know where to start & what to look for & troubleshoot it.

Good Luck


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

jamestrd said:


> I think i have either a break or a disconnected neutral wire somewhere.
> tomorrow i will open up the other outlets and see .
> 
> i have no idea what circuits are to what breakers as they are mislabeled and changed.
> ...


Just because the problem has existed for a while, do not assume it is not a dangerous situation. The way you are working the problem you very well may find and fix it. 

Another advantage to hiring an electrician besides him being trained in theory, is that he should have the proper tools to assist him in finding the problem, and what you are spending hours looking for could possibly be found in minutes.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Hire the electrician to find the problem and then pay his service fee and fix it yourself...


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## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

jamestrd said:


> i have no idea what circuits are to what breakers as they are mislabeled and changed.
> although i agree that with some of the comments, this condition has been existing for a very long time,.so obviously not threatening anything..something is wrong somewhere and I am seeking advice as to best approach to determine where.
> .....
> I am getting power to 2 outlets not working, but the neatral seems to be open(right term?) somewhere.
> 2 kit outlets getting no ppwer..haven't opened the 2 in LR yet, nor the outside outlet yet.


My next door neighbor called me yesterday; washer won't work. Would I take a look? .......OK

Situation; it's a rental, a father (2000 miles away) bought the house for his daughter to live in while in school. I've worked w/ the father who is in construction and multi skilled, and past electrician by trade.

Turns out it is not the washer, but a dead circuit. I agree to look further. Wall outlet is fine. My idiot light plug in tester shows an open neutral, meaning both the ground is OK and the circuit was hot; just a bad neutral. I plug a radio into the washer, trace & back to junction box and start probing, find the neutral, in in jostling it the radio (plugged into the washing machine outlet, downstream) starts playing Christmas music; there's the issue. 
Damn wires are soldered and the line feeding the washer..... looks like an add on branch is just twisted onto the mess and taped over.

Here's my point; you may be able to test and prove that it is an open neutral. You may be able to find a loose wire without a lot of risk. It is also true, to my way of thinking that a loose connection can produce heat and arcing and merely because it hasn't burned your house yet, doesn't mean it won't the next time. In a way.... you are lucky that it is only "open" instead of alternating......arcing.

I fixed the one issue. The owner said look at the other ones..... since they may be messed up as well. I draw the line; I'm not an electrician and don't feel comfortable surfing on the edge of acceptable. I'm not even sure if I should have legally/ethically fixed the one issue. Once we touch it we own the result. Maybe giving advice to the unknowledgeable via the internet also makes people feel as though in a way they "own" the end result.

I hope this post wasn't too much off topic.

willy


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

I'm not trying to get all righteous on you by any means, however in my area MOST electricians wire homes pretty much the same way. 

Barring too many unqualified people getting their fingers into the electrical system between when the house was built, and now, an electrician can usually eliminate certain areas of the home being related to others.

A perfect example is the kitchen counter receptacles. In most cases, they should have NOTHING to do with a receptacle in the living room. (In theory)

The kitchen countertop receptacles are usually on a shared neutral and supply both required small appliance circuits there. (I did say usually right)

Also, in most cases they are 20 amp circuits as opposed to a living room which in most cases are 15 amp.

An experienced electrician can (usually) find the problem in a fraction of the time of someone going in cold. It's what we do everyday so we'd better be good at it.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Hire the electrician to find the problem and then pay his service fee and fix it yourself...


Your analogy is the same as telling your mechanic to pull your truck into the shop, run it up on the lift, remove your oil plug, drain the oil, replace the oil filter with a new one, lower the truck back to the floor, refill the engine with oil, but you won't pay him to close the hood as you'll do that yourself.

My charge to _find_ the problem would equal my charge to_ find and correct_ the problem.

_Correcting_ it usually only takes a minute or two. And because of liability issues, I would never 'locate' an issue for a HO and let them 'fix' it themselves.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

should a GFI breaker trip when you test from neutral to ground?..


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

jamestrd said:


> ok try to keep it simple.
> 
> 1 outside outlet not working..checked power with meter. reset button fully depressing but not engaging..(not tripping)
> 
> ...





jamestrd said:


> THX ATC..I understand fully what you're saying.
> 
> but since none of these outlets are GFI outlets,wouldn't it make sense then that the breaker must be?
> 
> ...





jamestrd said:


> I think i have either a break or a disconnected neutral wire somewhere.
> tomorrow i will open up the other outlets and see .
> 
> if everything is tight and well connected...then i will just try oricess and elimination.
> ...





jamestrd said:


> should a GFI breaker trip when you test from neutral to ground?..





mrmike said:


> Have you noticed that none of the replies with giving advice are from Electricians? If you don't know enough of theory, it will be very hard for you to troubleshoot, especially if you don't know how to read a multimeter on voltage & RESISTANCE & how to go about troubleshooting your problem, you are working in the dark.
> My statement doesn't mean to criticize you for trying,as you might easily find a wire off somewhere, but to realize it takes some electrical savvy to know where to start & what to look for & troubleshoot it.
> 
> Good Luck


From your description of the circuits, the work is substandard to begin with. 
Therefore you may be Trouble shooting someone elses shoddy work and/or making it worse. 
Fine that you are willing to jump in and get your feet wet (so to speak) but what happens when an innocent person gets burned?
Was it worth it to save a few bucks? 
I'm all for people expanding their knowledge and studying electrical theory in a classroom enviorment first, 
then at least 4 years as an apprentice before going out on your own and delving into something that is invisible and can kill in the blink of an eye.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

jamestrd said:


> should a GFI breaker trip when you test from neutral to ground?..


How do you 'test' this?

BTW, yes, it should trip.




mrmike said:


> Have you noticed that none of the replies with giving advice are from Electricians? ........


Because _real_ electricians know better.


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