# Dealing with "entitled" clients



## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

> Kristina is averaging 30 posts a day and she only joined 2 days ago
> YOU are impressing me, smart, funny, and feisty
> 
> Keep it up


Sorry, I know I post a lot, but I don't get out much. Sadly, this is the only "adult" interaction I ever get! 





> then charged him quite a bit extra for the energy spent clenching all the way downtown. Rich.
> __________________


:laughing: :clap: 

.


> I could care less if i get "that job". I would rather work 3 smaller jobs for decent folk and make less money than that one big job and deal with headaches.
> Pride will cost ya, but I'll stick to my personal values/beliefs and wont kiss somebodies azz for sake of kissing their azz, I've got better things to do.


:clap: :thumbup:


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

All this fuss about getting in the house and not, I thought I'd better dump my 1.02 cents with or without striking paper.

I always set it up early, first week I'm in the house, I ask whats on the tube and make a sandwitch. Halfway threw the job, I'm in the hotub and taking their kids to school. By the time the job wraps up I have my own room.:w00t:

Bob


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

ive posted it before, and ill post it again, problem solved


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Glasshousebltr said:


> All this fuss about getting in the house and not, I thought I'd better dump my 1.02 cents with or without striking paper.
> 
> I always set it up early, first week I'm in the house, I ask whats on the tube and make a sandwitch. Halfway threw the job, I'm in the hotub and taking their kids to school. By the time the job wraps up I have my own room.:w00t:
> 
> Bob


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Man, on some of the jobs that drag on, I do feel like I should be paying these people rent. 

I have definately delt with people who would not allow me to use their bathrooms. Whatever, it's no sweat off my back. Thankfully, more often than not the HO is more than obliging in letting me have free reign of their home.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

My husband is addicted to Diet Coke, so he buys it then keeps in the customers fridge! I bought him a little cooler for his truck, because he would go back to customers' house after the weekend and get mad when there were only a few sodas left. :laughing: 

Sometimes I'll pick up materials for him, and whenever I get there, I ALWAYS have to go to the bathroom! So I've used many of his customers' bathrooms too! :laughing: Most don't care one bit.


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## pwrpapa (Jul 3, 2005)

Here's some food for thought. No product or service can succeed unless it's somehow unique and superior to any other product or service that competes with it. There's seldom any opportunity to build a business around a "me too" product--a product or service that's just the same as all the others, where the only difference is that it's you who happens to be selling it.

Please don't take that the wrong way! :thumbsup:


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

pwrpapa said:


> Here's some food for thought. No product or service can succeed unless it's somehow unique and superior to any other product or service that competes with it. There's seldom any opportunity to build a business around a "me too" product--a product or service that's just the same as all the others, where the only difference is that it's you who happens to be selling it.
> 
> Please don't take that the wrong way! :thumbsup:


I can't see anyone taking it the wrong way. That is very good information that with only a half second of thought, I'm sure we can all agree THAT is what sells jobs.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Ego is a hard master. If they don't want you using their toilet, rent a port-o-john and charge them for it. Personally, I could give a ratz azz about what they think of me; I am there to do a job and make money, not be their friend.


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

I agree. It's not what they think, they are free to think whatever they want. It's when they TREAT you like **** that bothers me. I've got no patience for assholes.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

That is that Ego getting in the way. Who cares how they treat you? Do you want to be thier friend, or do you want to do a job and make money?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Do what I do: I have an "a-hole adder", usually 10-15% of total, just like I have an adder for lawyers and churches, both of which are high risk jobs.


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

He does the job and doesn't give a crap about anything. I'm the indignant one. :boxing: 

I just cannot stand when someone talks down to him or is disrespectful to him. No one should have to put up with disrespect just to make a living. I dunno, I'm a chick, I might be oversensitive, but I view it as degrading and demeaning. There are a lot more people out there who won't treat a contractor like crap. I'd much rather tell the buttwipes to screw than suck their ass to get paid. He is wasting his time and talent on someone who doesn't deserve it. Let them hire the jackasses who will rip them off and do shoddy work. He can provide his work to a more middle class, hard working family who will appreciate his abilities.

I guess this is one of those "risk factors" in working with your spouse. I'm sorry, I love the guy and hate to see him taken advantage of.









I would never expect anyone to sacrifice the wellbeing of themselves or their business in order not to work for prick, but some pride is ok. No?

I'll shut up now. :shutup:


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

> Do what I do: I have an "a-hole adder", usually 10-15% of total, just like I have an adder for lawyers and churches, both of which are high risk jobs.












He has this sort of policy. If he doesn't want to do work for someone, he quotes really high in hopes they opt not to go with him. If they do, at least he's getting paid really well to deal with their BS. :thumbup:


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

How is he being taken advantage of because someone treats him like dirt? Ego is a terrible thing. It is like what usually happens when there is a dispute. The problem could be solved, but one or both parties get bowed up because their feelings get hurt, or they feel like they have to "prove" they are "better", "right" or they are plain old stubborn. The end result is seldom to anyones benefit, while by simply allowing that it is not personal, the issue can be solved in a rational manner, and usually to everyones satisfaction. 

I do not need to prove anything to anyone. The best way to handle a personal slight is to fail to acknowledge that one has been made. Like I tell my kids: No one can hurt your feelings unless you let them; No one can hurt your "self-esteem" unless you allow them (#$%#@ Public schools for this "self-esteem crap!) to.


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

*How is he being taken advantage of because someone treats him like dirt? *

Only because he knocks himself out trying to make them happy. People like that will NEVER be happy, save yourself the trouble.

*Ego is a terrible thing. It is like what usually happens when there is a dispute. The problem could be solved, but one or both parties get bowed up because their feelings get hurt, or they feel like they have to "prove" they are "better", "right" or they are plain old stubborn. *

It has nothing to do with being "right". It's about how people treat other people, period. I would never try to prove I was *better* than anyone else, but ya know, I am AS GOOD AS anyone else. I just think it's crappy when people treat other people poorly. That's all. 

We more often times encounter this in our clients than ourselves. They will never admit they were wrong and will stop at nothing, not even smearing our name, in order to "win". I think it's pathetic. We want what's owed, nothing more. They want to get all that they can get and not pay for it. 

*The end result is seldom to anyones benefit, while by simply allowing that it is not personal, the issue can be solved in a rational manner, and usually to everyones satisfaction. *

We have yet to deal with rational people who are trying to screw us. If they are trying in the first place, they aren't rational. My husband makes every effort up to and including sacrificing his entire PROFIT on a job to make these people happy because they use fear and intimidation to manipulate him. I think it's disgusting. 

*I do not need to prove anything to anyone. The best way to handle a personal slight is to fail to acknowledge that one has been made. Like I tell my kids: No one can hurt your feelings unless you let them; No one can hurt your "self-esteem" unless you allow them (#$%#@ Public schools for this "self-esteem crap!) to.*

It's not personal, it's business. It doesn't hurt his feelings when people don't pay him, it hurts our business and therefore our family. Directly. *I* take that personally. Sue me.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The discussion is not about not being paid, it is about people who do not treat you with the respect that you feel you are owed.


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

*The discussion is not about not being paid, it is about people who do not treat you with the respect that you feel you are owed.*

I dunno if I agree with that. It's my humble opinion that getting paid or NOT getting paid is directly linked to people respecting what we do or NOT respecting what we do. 

I don't feel I'm OWED anything, except the pay we deserve for the work we have done. 

I don't think it's expecting too much to have a business relationship that involves mutual respect. 

I won't sit here and argue with you about what I think is reasonable to be "entitled to" or "owed of". If you have no problem with people thinking you aren't worth what they pay you, that's your deal. If you've never encountered this stuff, good for you. If you don't give a rat's ass that's even better. You have a thicker skin than I do. This is why *I* don't work in the field with these people. My husband has a much higher tolerance for BS than I do. I won't apologize for being proud of what he does and indignant when people sh*t on it. 

I tend not to care what other people think of me, as I've already demonstrated here. Unfortunately, we have to care about the opinions of the people who pay our bills. I think it's crappy that we have to be at their mercy, that's all.

I wish I could develop a more solid case of the "fvck-its" the way some people have. It's just not me. 

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. Have a good night.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

No one can hurt your feelings or take advantage of you unless you allow them to do so.


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## Eric K (Nov 24, 2005)

All I have to say about these people who think theyre so smart and better than everyone, is that theyre not all that smart to not relize I'm charging an a$$hole homeowner charge in there! Heh. This one guy we worked (regularly) for used to swear at us up and down, made him feel good. Everytime I got f bombed he got a $200 invoice for slandering. After he recieved about 8 of them he slowed down. It actually worked!:thumbup:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Kristina, how many people do you deal with that are trying to screw you over? It seems you have an un-naturally high number of goof balls you are dealing with.:sad:


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## asbestos (Mar 22, 2006)

I work in an affluent area with about 30% attorneys. One lawyer is a great guy to work for. He's the first one to say "make sure you add some extra to the bill to cover that" I came from a non blue collar background but was raised to value all work, and the people who did it . My dad was always said that if you looked down on janitors you did not deserve to use a clean restroom
Really though, I work in many houses that are worth over 1mil and most people have been great. I don't look down on them for not knowing how to hang a mirror, and they don't look down on me for making a living with my hands. I am glad they have the $ to hire me, and they are happy that some one will do their work in a professional manner Life is to short to work for people who are unpleasant. Far and away (not even a contest) the biggest butthead $#%%^#nose P.O.S I ever worked for (his landlord actualy) was an equipment operator.
Now don't get me started on real estate agents


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

> Kristina, how many people do you deal with that are trying to screw you over? It seems you have an un-naturally high number of goof balls you are dealing with.


__________________

We are currently only dealing with 2 buttholes. the first ones EVER! They just happened to come one right after the other.


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## pwrpapa (Jul 3, 2005)

Kristina said:


> __________________
> 
> We are currently only dealing with 2 buttholes. the first ones EVER! They just happened to come one right after the other.


Well, that answers it. You haven't had enough dealings with butt holes yet.
When you have had a number of them, it won't bother you at all.


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## camaroman2125 (Apr 13, 2006)

I've had my share of butthole homeowners. My last one was a couple that bought one of our custom homes. They wanted to do the landscaping on their own to save some money. Well, After 3 months of them not getting it done themselves they called me and the old man back to do it for them. We went over everything with them. From what plants they wanted to where they wanted said plants, and what kinda mulch they wanted. We get it completly done and then the husband comes home as says his wife doesn't like the mulch and where the plants were. They wanted us to rip them up and move them for free. I told them if they wanted them moved again that it would be a time and material job then and that we charge 45 dollars a hour plus the cost of new mulch. They decided to stay with what they had after we told them that.


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

*Well, that answers it. You haven't had enough dealings with butt holes yet.
When you have had a number of them, it won't bother you at all.*

Isn't it sad that we have to look forward to working with even more buttholes in order to not give a crap about it???

Ahhhh I love the service industry.


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## whiteslandscape (Apr 26, 2006)

hi there I am from arkansas, north littlerock area here new on contractors forum alot of people say things that they no idea of what there saying because they have alot of money, they say things that are sounding hatefull or degrading some times not because there rich its that was the way they was brought up" not sticking up for them" but i do agree with you totaly but there arragent ways come off like that but its knowing the way they are and finding that happy medium to get to know there ways and finding that bite the toung till the jobs done hahahahahaa howdy yall joewhite hi there kristina i hope things get alot better for ya .


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## trialbyfire (Oct 29, 2005)

This is one of the reasons I am giving up the reno biz. It is hard, heavy, and dusty, and when you get treated like you don't know anything by someone who has hired you because they don't know anything, it is too much. My body was hurting all the time, so I started taking a juice that is antii-nflamatory. I stopped the motrin, and am now making good moeny on it. Check me out if your body hurts, or if you want an alternative.

http://www.rasmussen.natureswellnesssecret.com/


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## pwrpapa (Jul 3, 2005)

trialbyfire said:


> This is one of the reasons I am giving up the reno biz. It is hard, heavy, and dusty, and when you get treated like you don't know anything by someone who has hired you because they don't know anything, it is too much. My body was hurting all the time, so I started taking a juice that is antii-nflamatory. I stopped the motrin, and am now making good moeny on it. Check me out if your body hurts, or if you want an alternative.
> 
> http://www.rasmussen.natureswellnesssecret.com/


I like D-bol or Deca ,Anavar is good too.. HAHA

You can make money selling that too, but it's illegal.....


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

*Missing something??*

Ok, I must be totally misreading this thread or something.. 

I know there are jerks out there who are condescending or real a-holes.. but.. out of all the rants about bad customers, does anyone but me wonder where the contractor's might have some bad attitude issues too?

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't kiss anyone's ass to get a job, nor tolerate verbal abuse, continous complaints, or harrassment on any job for any price, but this is a SERVICE business. We are hired by the customer to provide a service in exchange for pay. That requires skill, professionalism and the ability to establish and maintain customer relationships in a positive way. Word of mouth is the leading advertising for most contractors... are we always earning positive comments with our actions while on a jobsite?

Yes there are bitchy people who no matter what you do, you simply can't please them, but those are the types that you either turn down the job or go do it in a professional manner and move on. Next time they call, simply tell them your schedule is just too full to accomodate them at that time.

In my opinion only... the customer does not automatically owe us rights to invade their home or to disrupt their day to day routine. We as service providers should be respectful of the customer's boundaries. Access to the jobsite is one thing but access to their private space where work is not being done is a privilege not a right. Sadly, the world today doesn't always give the sense of security that it once did so giving someone run of your house or even access to your bathroom can create an uneasy feeling. 

Again, my opinion only...They aren't obligated to provide us with anything except access, power if required for the job, and a water source if required to complete the work. Anything beyond that..it's a privilege.

It is possible that their aggressive attitudes is due to previous bad experiences with contractor's who have abused the privilege of being guest in their homes. And no matter how you twist that around, it still comes down to they had the choice of hiring you or someone else. For whatever reason, they selected you and placed their trust in your company that you would have the skill to do the work right, the integrity to not rip them off on invoices, and that you were trustworthy enough to feel safe in allowing you access to their property. The respect should be mutual and professional. 

Some service providers have an excellent reputation because of their level of professionalism, others are not so great and the good ones pay the price for the bad. 

We all know the type.. the Bubba T. ******* "contractor" showing up in his beat-up unlettered truck leaving oil puddles on the driveway, wearing jeans and a dirty shirt, looking and smelling like he hadn't bathed in weeks, ass half hanging out, mud on his boots, spitting tobacco on the porch asking "Lady, I gotta take a dump. Let me in." He leaves the bathroom with drywall mud stuck on the sink, smeared on the towels and a muddy footprints all over the pretty light colored carpets. Naturally the next guy who comes along is going to get shut out. It happens... hopefully not often but it happens and we all pay the price for one Bubba's actions. Don't be the bubba.. :laughing:


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## Rich Wozny (Aug 18, 2005)

realpurty2, we all have to go to the bathroom sometime, it's a natural thing, maybe you spend most of your time in your shop or office, not on a jobsite. When using a customers bathroom it is not my intent to mess it up, using it one would think is a common courtesy. If customer wants a SAttelite on the job, they should say so and pay for it as part of the job.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Woz a port a potty should be in ALL estimates if not on paper at least in your pricing spreadsheat. That way if the customer nixes your bathroom privalage just rent a crapper. I dont know what they cost around you but I think I can get them for $60 a month. That is something I am more than willing to pay for even though I am not really paying for it. Just to make a customer happy. Shoot even I dont include it as cost to the customer I am sure that I can handle speding $60 to make a deal were I make $5,000. We sometimes pay more than that for a lead and this is better than a lead it if it is the differance of getting a job or not then spend the $60 take your money and be happy.


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

*Again, my opinion only...They aren't obligated to provide us with anything except access, power if required for the job, and a water source if required to complete the work. Anything beyond that..it's a privilege.*

Totally true. We don't expect bathroom access and if they are nice enough to offer it, we put plastic down all the way from the entry to the bathroom, where ever that might be.

I agree it's about mutual respect. We would never disrespect any homeowner, we are professional and my husband is great at standing there and taking abuse and not returning the favor. He is always a professional. 

I however, could not sit there and take a verbal beating from anyone, which is why he hides me in the office.









I understand that sometimes people have been burned in the past by some hackers, but that's why this time they chose us. They should trust their choices and not just assume everyone is an ass.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

_"Again, my opinion only...They aren't obligated to provide us with anything except access, power if required for the job, 
and a water source if required to complete the work. Anything beyond that..it's a privilege."_

I disagree. They are obligated if they sign our contract. Washroom access is included.


_"access to your bathroom can create an uneasy feeling."_
A full bladder is even worse. The time of the month needs for our mostly
female painters...I don't think I need to tell you about that.


_"They aren't obligated to provide us with anything except access, power if required for the job, 
and a water source if required to complete the work"_

We are not obligated to provide them our services. We only work for
nice people. You know, the ones that think construction workers are
human as well and have needs just like theirs. We only work for people that are delighted to have us. 
Using our services is *their* priviledge.

_"their aggressive attitudes is due to previous bad experiences with contractor's"_
Starting a contracting experience without trust, will get them that any time. 
Maybe they should do their homework on who they hire.

The point of all this is:
Customers usually choose us.
The shoe is on the other foot now. We choose our customers.
For many years it's been the other way around.
If we don't like you customer...no soup (paint) for you!

P.S.
As far as mutual respect goes, we did nothing to lose theirs yet. 
Past experiences with other contractors have nothing to do with us.
They have done plenty to lose our respect.
It has nothing to do with washrooms.
The e-mail states: "we will not be giving you access". 
It does not say "we are uncomfortable with that"


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

*no soup (paint) for you!*


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

George Z said:


> _
> 
> We are not obligated to provide them our services. We only work for
> nice people. You know, the ones that think construction workers are
> ...


_

Let's hope your doctor who is also a service provider doesn't exactly agree with you. _


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

realpurty2 said:


> .
> showing up in his beat-up unlettered truck leaving oil puddles on the driveway, wearing jeans and a dirty shirt, looking and smelling like he hadn't bathed in weeks, ass half hanging out, mud on his boots, spitting tobacco on the porch asking "Lady, I gotta take a dump. Let me in." He leaves the bathroom with drywall mud stuck on the sink, smeared on the towels and a muddy footprints all over the pretty light colored carpets.


Is there something wrong with that? The only difference in my mode of operation is I'm more courteous than to park in the driveway and get oil all over it, so I usually park on the front yard.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

realpurty2 said:


> Let's hope your doctor who is also a service provider doesn't exactly agree with you.


Family Doctors do. They don't take everyone.
Now, brain surgeons - thanks for the compliment, but it's a slightly different service. 
I still don't remember of a painting emergency.

What exactly is the problem, I don't understand. We have hundreds 
of customers in our database, no complaints yet. 
Customer doesn't trust us, we don't need to work for them. 
If nothing else, it's a huge red flag of other problems to come.
Maybe I am told wrong, but please explain: What do female painters 
do during that time of the month? The bushes? 5 Gallon pails?
Drive to the coffe shop(not all of them have a driver's licence), as soon as they make it down from the ladder. 
Is it not much better that the customer is hospitable? 
Human relationships, aren't they great? Let's get back to that.
If people work in my house, they are guests. I may not have 
the time to make them coffee, but they can use my washroom.

Again, if you are not nice, not soup(paint) for you.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

George Z said:


> _"Again, my opinion only...They aren't obligated to provide us with anything except access, power if required for the job,
> and a water source if required to complete the work. Anything beyond that..it's a privilege."_
> 
> I disagree. They are obligated if they sign our contract. Washroom access is included.
> ...


George you operate the same way I do, while I don't take over their house, the customer is going to have to understand that if they want the nice pretty thingys done in their home, it's a process of controlled destruction and disruption. We do our best to minimize the impact but a customer must understand that it's going to be invasive and their lives will be effected. We usually throw one of them out of their garage space for our tool storage, material storage and work room for the duration of the project, we also take over at least one room next to the room we are working on. We will use their bathroom, their water, their faucets and electricity and we will be making noise, we will be leaving the door open at times so turn up the furnace if you have too, making sure small children and pets that tend to make dashes to freedom are not able to is their responsibility .

There is always a fine line between walking on eggshells that causes you to not be able to work effectively and the process of protecting a clients home from damage, but disrupting it enough to be able to work quickly and efficiently.

Everything is spelled out in the contract they sign under "customer reponsibilities", as well as a handout they get that tells them what they are in for. I haven't had any complaints yet and my after job survey usually comes back rated as a 5 out of 5 stars for us under "Did everything possible to minimize disruption to our lives" and "Jobsite was kept as clean as was appropriate." 

The key is under promising and over-delivering and clear communication of what they should expect before it starts. That way there are no suprises. I would rather find out about an issue before the job starts and deal with it or scrub the job all together if I can't guarantee the customer will appreciate what we do.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Workers at my house are not guests. If I were to contract a job that required day-long or multiple day workers, I would require them to have a port-o-let as part of the contract. It has nothing to do with how I feel about them, it has to do with professionalism and privacy.

I don't request that a homeowner let my employees heat up their tacos in the homeowners microwave, listen to to the homeowners radio, or use the restroom facilities. As an employer, I make arrangments for those types of things to be supplied by me, the contractor, as required.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

Port o let is an outhouse right? So you'd rather have an outhouse on your front lawn? How exactly do they wash their hands then? And what is the maintenance involved with one of these? I'm guessing they require some dumping every now and then? Well, where?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Comparing contracting to being a service industry is a bit of a stretch... but if you must believe you are in a service industry like waiting tables then I can see how you can easily fall into the "servant" mentality. Don't complain when all the rest of the baggage comes with it, such as the arrogant customers you don't like and the entitled customers you don't like.

If you think of yourself as a servant instead of a peer to your customers then don't complain when they treat you like one. Being a servant means you are sub-servient and not on their level instead of being a professional and a business owner who is able to establish their company policies. No customers own us or are above us. Offering good customer service has nothing to do with being expected to keep the "nigg##s" out back and out of site.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Tscarborough said:


> No one can hurt your feelings or take advantage of you unless you allow them to do so.


You're right on there tscar. I say stay focused on "what's the next thing I need to do to get the result I want?" Everything else is noise.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

George Z said:


> ...Contracting is a win-win proposition based on trust. And believe me
> the issue is trust.


Do you require downpayments? If so, isnt that about 'trust'?


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

PipeGuy said:


> Do you require downpayments? If so, isnt that about 'trust'?


No, just payment terms as stated in the signed contract.
Getting paid is not about trust, it's business.


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## CGofMP (Feb 17, 2005)

Mike, please do not misunderstand... I am NOT of the opinion that contracting is an unskilled profession. SERVICE can be skilled or unskilled but it is still service. And it still comes with the same expectation from the customer of respect and yes I am gonna say it deference to them.

I guess 'service' is an under-understood term.. maybe by me! 

My feeling is that anytime you provide someone with something that they can not / will not do for themselves, whether or not they have any input you are serving them. 

I guess in the big scheeme of things anyone that deals directly with the customer is in some way in 'service mode' and should act accordingly. This to my mind means being of the mind that you are there to help the person/customer and enable them to get what *they need and want* if possible and if reasonable, expecting nothing but their money in return.

Is that a touchy feely feels good for me position? No. But my ego should be being stroked by other players (a boss) or my pocketbook or even by my own internal sense of accomplishment when done (work ethic).

A decade and a half ago I was forced along with an entire base of 3000 personnel to take someting called TQM . TQM or Total Quality Management (book reference: 'Quality Without Tears') was very much like Tom Peter's PBS special 'In Search Of Excellence'. The idea being to get people to excell in thei rcustomer service attitudes so as to increase productivity and proffit. Basically TQM was a way to tell organizations 2 things: 1) Get your 'management' the hell out of the workers way so as to enable them to make your company look good, AND 2) Make sure workers treat everyone as a 'customer' giving them the best service you can provide.

I made fun of TQM when I took it. It was so common sensical and to me MINDLESS that I could not understand why they made the entire organization sit through a week of someting so obvious. However as I grow older and as I deal more and more with people in ownership/management positons, I understand now why the organization tried to get people onboard with this.

The idea that we do our best while exacting the least impact to others just seems natural to me. 

Maybe in today's corporate mindset world I'm foolish but I really feel that contractors ARE in a service industry. When you compare yourself to wait-personnel at the local bar I think it is chepening yourself, because in my opinion even people of much higher schooling and training are 'servicing' others, be it the doctor that treats my kid for pinkeye, or the cop that is supposed to be keeping my town clean of human filth. Each has his 'customers' and each provides a 'service'.
I wouldnt tell the pediatrician that because he is in service mode he is like a janitor or wait person.

BUT - No one should expect or demand to cross the boundries of those who they serve as a normal course of their duties.


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## pwrpapa (Jul 3, 2005)

You have the ability to succeed or fail in life,It's up to the individual.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

George Z said:


> No, just payment terms as stated in the signed contract.


So do I understand correctly that your payment terms as stated in the signed contract don't require payments in advance of the work?


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

CGofMP said:


> ...in my opinion even people of much higher schooling and training are 'servicing' others, be it the doctor that treats my kid for pinkeye, or the cop that is supposed to be keeping my town clean of human filth. Each has his 'customers' and each provides a 'service'.
> I wouldnt tell the pediatrician that because he is in service mode he is like a janitor or wait person.


You know come to think of it, the big book that lists all the doctors that particpate in my insurance program s entitled the "Service Provider Directory". What a joke that is. I've never had a doctor treat me like he was a servant - quite the contrary. Maybe we should take a lesson from doctors - make everyone wait alone in a room for at least 15 minutes before seeing them and then excuse ourselves every few minutes to attend to other, undisclosed, affairs.


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## CGofMP (Feb 17, 2005)

...and then we could RUN to the sink as soon as we shake a customer's hands and wash off!


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> Comparing contracting to being a service industry is a bit of a stretch... Don't complain when all the rest of the baggage comes with it, such as the arrogant customers you don't like and the entitled customers you don't like.
> Being a servant means you are sub-servient and not on their level instead of being a professional and a business owner who is able to establish their company policies. No customers own us or are above us.


I have to confess that this is a line of reasoning I've never considered. So tell me, does it follow that while a waiter 'serves' a diner the restaurateur does not? Likewise, a store clerk serves a shopper but the store's proprietor does not. Am I on the right track?


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## trialbyfire (Oct 29, 2005)

Gotta thnk of costs. I ask about it first. Think of it this way. If I am on then roof, and gotta go, I don't want to have to tell my customer that I need a pee break and have to go into town for half an hour. But if I did, each time costs them an extra half hour.


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## oldgoat (Aug 18, 2005)

To be honest I'm kind of surprised at how this has gone. I don't really see where a contractor should feel like they have a right to a homeowners bathrooom and how it makes the homeowner nice or not. With the cost of a portajohn being fairly minimal it would seem like it should be a non issue. Actually if you think about it maybe the homeowner has had people come throught their house before and tracked dirt and mud over the carpet. Maybe they just plain think that they are paying for a job to be done and don't feel like it should mean they are required to provide a bathroom. Also I know in my house the office is right next to the bathroom. It would be very easy for someone to make a right turn into there pick up some checks, or pick up info that could lead to ID theft in less than a minute. With the problems of ID theft and the words of caution that people are being told to watch out for I don't think it is unwarranted. While you trust your employees and you think the homeowner should also trust you would you let the homeowner go through your tool trailer or the cab of your truck when they felt like it? I have never refused to let them use the bathroom and we usually offer coffee or pop and if the wife makes cookies will bring out a plate for them, but I do it because I want to and not because the contractor says I have to get him to do a job.


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## asbestos (Mar 22, 2006)

I don't get it. It is their house
you are being paid to do work on it
you are *not* a guest.
If they don't want some stranger taking a *Big, huge, stinky dump* in their bathroom (and perhaps even plugging it up- but I would not know anything about that:innocent: ) That seems reasonable to me

Best edit of sticker in honeybucket
if this unit is in need of service phone our office
to
this unit is indeed our office


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

PipeGuy said:


> So do I understand correctly that your payment terms as stated in the signed contract don't require payments in advance of the work?


As I said, it's business.
You pay for your lawnmower first and then you bring it home.
You pay for your car first, then drive it home.
We don't need to finance people's projects, 
not without finance charges anyway. 
Commercial projects are of course different.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

asbestos said:


> I don't get it. It is their house
> you are being paid to do work on it
> you are *not* a guest.
> If they don't want some stranger taking a *Big, huge, stinky dump* in their bathroom (and perhaps even plugging it up- but I would not know anything about that:innocent: ) That seems reasonable to me
> ...


Not a problem at all.
There are contractors for these people(obviously)
We like the other type.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

PipeGuy said:


> I have to confess that this is a line of reasoning I've never considered. So tell me, does it follow that while a waiter 'serves' a diner the restaurateur does not? Likewise, a store clerk serves a shopper but the store's proprietor does not. Am I on the right track?


Maybe the difference in allthis lies in the following:

to serve
to service


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Considering we leave a customers house cleaner when we leave than we found it, there is no issue in regard to making a mess. Since it is just me right now I know I won't be wiping my ass with the customers display hand towels. Now once I get a crew in there I might change my policy. I can see where taking a dump in a customers house could be offensive, it parallels in my mind the same intrusion as playing your radio loud in their house.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

George Z said:


> As I said, it's business.
> You pay for your lawnmower first and then you bring it home.
> You pay for your car first, then drive it home.
> We don't need to finance people's projects,
> ...


Let me say first that my interest in this topic isn't to challenge your right as a business owner to embrace whatever ethical practices you might so choose. 

I do find it interesting however that you've pointed to 'trust' as an important factor in your choice of clients when in fact the first thing you do is attend to your 'distrust' (that you'll get paid) by requiring money up front. Other than fear of credit risk, or the simple desire to 'get mine first', or the risk of incurring expense for special order items, or just that 'the market allows it', what reason is there for compelling clients to pay in advance of your expenses? I believe that the origin of the practice of prepaying home improvement contracts is found (and remains) in nothing more than contractors exposure to credit risk. You'd be hard pressed to convince me otherwise. 

Finally, retail transactions and contracting transactions aren't analagous. In retail you have a finished product when you walk out of the store or drive off the lot. In a contracting transaction you've got little until the work is finished. I'd argue that the value of any improvement is $0 until said improvement has at least substantially progressed towards completion; maybe even until it's finished all together. At a minimum, the value of the improvement to the client at any point in the building process isn't proportional to how far towards completion the work is. That is to say when a $10K addition is 90% complete it doesn't yet afford the client a $9K benefit. Until it's finished it might even be a liability depending on various circumstances. I think requiring payment in advance of expenses is typically no less a contractor taking advantage of a client than squeezing down the value of extra work after its completion is a client taking advantage of a contractor. I guess that's the point: in contracting it's trust be damned...every man for himself.


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## mrmojo (Apr 25, 2006)

pipe guy
do you think i should use my money to give you something that you want?
im interested to see what the idea is behind that.
take away from me to give to you(who i dont know from nobody)let you tie up my money on something i probably cant afford ,lol and lots of tmes wouldnt ever think about any way
why would i do that?
thats the thing i cannot get through some customers heads at all
its yours you pay for it,i dont care if its a $5 padlock hasp or whatever. i dont want it, probably got a bunch somewhere already


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

MrMojo. The idea behind that is that you assume risk, and are thus entitled to make a profit. At it's most basic, the only reason you are entitled to profit is the assumption of risk.


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## mrmojo (Apr 25, 2006)

no the risk i assume is you might not pay me in the end.
so just for fun,i am suposed to take 30.000 of my money to build you something then when your happy i get paid?
again ill ask and then probably not post any more on this subject
why would i let you use my money?
for something you want


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Let me turn it around for you. Why should I (as a homeowner) allow YOU to use MY money to make money for yourself?


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

mrmojo said:


> pipe guy
> do you think i should use my money to give you something that you want?


I like your handle:thumbsup: 

To answer the question...not at all. What I do think is your notion of what I want is different from mine. I also think that you discount the idea that both parties 'want something' out of the contract. I want a finished product and you want to turn a profit. The flip side of the question is: have you earned my money before you've delivered what I want?

What I want isn't a carpenter's time, a window in a box, a quart of paint and 16' feet of molding. I want a window that functions as designed, is trimmed in and painted in a workmanlike fashion.

What I want isn't a couple of siding guys, some scaffolding, some polyurethane insulation, and truck load of vinyl siding. I want my house to be well protected from the elements by the properly installed siding of my choice.

What I want isn't a handyman, (65) 2x4's (24) sheets of 1/2" drywall, a couple rolls of tape, a gallon of mud and some latex paint. I want a finished garage in which I can park my car, hang some shelves, store some tools and sneak a beer and a smoke from time to time.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't have squat until I have a finished product; the pieces mean nothing to me. As such, I'm not thinking anything has been earned until the job has been finished.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

mrmojo said:


> no the risk i assume is you might not pay me in the end.


BINGO! My point exactly. The basis of downpayments is credit risk. I TOTALLY understand that risk. What I don't understand is an apparent total disregard (if not denial) of the fact that the client is at risk of the contractor delivering a substandard or otherwise unfinished product; particularly when payment is made in advance of delivery.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

PipeGuy said:


> BINGO! My point exactly. The basis of downpayments is credit risk. I TOTALLY understand that risk. What I don't understand is an apparent total disregard (if not denial) of the fact that the client is at risk of the contractor delivering a substandard or otherwise unfinished product; particularly when payment is made in advance of delivery.


No risk to the customer.
All they need to know is be a good consumer.
Check references, talk to past clients, see the work, 
make sure the contractor is insured, get a nice warranty(one like ours).

What about concert or a movie ticket then. Why don't you pay after?

Why are we arguing the points that are good for us as contractors 
I understand your point Pipeguy, but why are you making it?
We get attacked enough from the so called consumer advocates.
We don't need to attack each other here. 
Money is a good thing. Cashflow is a good thing. 
It helps us run a successful company that's able to have 
what it takes to provide great service.
Profit is good too.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Discussion is good. No attacks, just a rational discussion. We are off the topic a bit, though, sorry, Kristina.

BTW, Profit isn't just good, it is the reason we work so hard.


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## oldgoat (Aug 18, 2005)

I don't think a contractor should be expected to front all the money to do a job although when I had my garage built one of the guys said he didn't expect money until the job was done and thought that if you couldn't afford it you shouldn't be doing it. Nice thought I guess, but very risky. I ended up with a guy that I paid a third after the concrete was done, after the framing and final after it passed inspection by the city and me. I think that was resonable and fair although I didn't get a lein waiver like was recommended.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

In the real world, there are other considerations. Upfront, 25% is reasonable just to ensure that they are serious about the project. I lean towards 25% at contract signing, 25% on substantial completion (as laid out in the contract), and 50% upon acceptance.

This gives everyone involved risk protection, and still allows the contractor sufficent cash flow.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

George Z said:


> No risk to the customer. All they need to know is be a good consumer.


No risk? Come on, isn't that a just a bit of a stretch? If you were to hire a lawn guy would you want to pay him in April for May, June and July lawn cutting? Why not?



George Z said:


> What about concert or a movie ticket then. Why don't you pay after?


Because there's no objective standard by which to judge a movie's appeal (worth) to the moviegoer. There's no prior meeting of the minds between the movie maker and movie goer by which they agree on a basis for determinig what it is that constitutes a 'good' movie.



George Z said:


> Why are we arguing the points that are good for us as contractors I understand your point Pipeguy, but why are you making it? We get attacked enough... We don't need to attack each other here.


I'm not meaning to attack anyone - really. Sorry if I come across that way.


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## mrmojo (Apr 25, 2006)

i wonder if what i'm saying is being misunderstood
im not talking about paying me in full before ive done anything
what im saying is my money should not be tied up on your project for any reason
you pay for your materials, if its a couple week job pay me a progress draw and final upon completion
i shouldnt have to put any of my cash into your job,not even the 75 cent box of screws or whatever thats all


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## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

George Z said:


> We have a choice of customers, we take the nice ones.


Now there's a man who has my philosophy.


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## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

Fellas, as soon as we expend either labor or materials in a project, we are extending credit to the HO - period. As such , we become a "lender" because we have extended him/her "credit."

What ever contractor should do is to have the HO fill our a credit application. It's no different than someone receiving a credit card with a $500 limit. Why do you think that credit card issuer has the owner of that card sign an application/agreement "contract"?

It's been so many years (possibly decades) I can't even remember ever having any one balk at giving me a deposit.


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## asbestos (Mar 22, 2006)

I worked some crappy jobs, had some lame bosses, and waked away from a few. (how some people will risk a life altering permanent disability for $10-25 an hour) 
Anyway I work for me now. My boss is a slave driver, lazy,and generaly a pain. But no way do I work for turds. 
I am also in the Fire dept. *There *I don't get to pick the customers:sad:


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## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

"He who would sacrifice essential liberty for a little temporary security, deserves neither liberty, nor security" 

Tell that to the guy who gets mugged and told to give up his money and wallet, but doesn't and is killed. Now he's got neither liberty nor security.

Everything must be kept in perspective. Besides, who determines "essential", the sacrifice's duration, situation, etc.? Also, according to Franklin, all prisoners of war should opt for suicide instead of becoming a prisoner.

Perspective!


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## Peladu (Jan 8, 2006)

This thread took a few turns, but throughout the thread, this is the post that I relate to the most even though he may have been joking, there is truth in what he says:


Glasshousebltr said:


> I always set it up early, first week I'm in the house, I ask whats on the tube and make a sandwitch. Halfway threw the job, I'm in the hotub and taking their kids to school. By the time the job wraps up I have my own room.:w00t:
> Bob


I can tell you that my jobs seem to go into phases when dealing with the customer. My job, as a businessman, is to get it to phase three, and hope it matures to phase four on its own. Here let me explain:

*Phase One:* Customer is edgy, nervous or uncertain. Face it, they are spending a lot of dough and want what they paid for, us contractors are the same way. _(Customer may watch over shoulder continuously)_

*Phase Two:* Customer becomes relaxed, but everything is still strictly business. _(Customer is starting to lay off of watching your every move and the slew of questions have stopped.)_

*Phase Three:* Customer is happy. This is when they are willing to leave the house and are able to say, "Go ahead and lock up when you leave." Also in this phase is when they start telling you about all of their friends who need work done also and start giving you the phone numbers to their friends. _(The Customer is able to be joked with, and also willing to answer questions honestly.)_

*Phase Four:* (Most jobs stop a Phase Three, but some hit Phase Four): Customer inviting you back after completion for a brew or two, or something on the bbq. Phase four has also been known to produce tickets to a game (once to an opera, I passed) and other benefits. _(You will be the first call the customer makes, until you screw it up.)_


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