# Crazy site built cabinet business idea



## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

There is nothing wrong with site built cabinets, but they will never compete with the price of production cabinets. Most builders want you in and out quick, and cheap.
our favorite joke about "custom" cabinets was, We can custom build you any size filler that you want.
Maybe it was funnier back then. :laughing:


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

Update: I have one cabinet job to do this way scheduled for a guy who does spec houses. It's cabinets only, no finishing. It's a small house, and very close by. Starts January 3rd or 4th. 

I've run the numbers, and allowed for significant overages in everything, plus the cost of two guys for three days and added my daily wage into it as well. 

That total comes to right about $2000 less than the contract price. My price was just under what he normally pays. 

My best and most realistic hand and I agreed that it can be done in 3 days, tops. 

I'll update again, with pictures, when it's done. Then we can all see how off I was.... And how much cabinets that are built on site just plain suck... Lol


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Looking forward to it:thumbsup:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I think the cost of site finishing is going to far outweigh any advantage from doing it this way. Id go buy some prefinished stock cabinets and wow him when you're done on day one, under budget, and he doesn't have to pay a finish guy...


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I think the cost of site finishing is going to far outweigh any advantage from doing it this way. Id go buy some prefinished stock cabinets and wow him when you're done on day one, under budget, and he doesn't have to pay a finish guy...


No one. And I do mean no one, finishes new custom cabinets off site around here, at least not in new construction. Maybe sometimes in a remodel. 

Every cabinet guy around here builds them in the shop, installs them, and then the painter finishes them on site along with all the painting. 99% of the time, that's what happens.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I believe you its just very odd to me. Guys around here have extensive spray booths. No way anyone can compete with the quality or cost when doing in an almost finished house.


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I believe you its just very odd to me. Guys around here have extensive spray booths. No way anyone can compete with the quality or cost when doing in an almost finished house.


I have a friend in Missouri with a cabinet shop, and he couldn't stay in business if he didn't do it like you're saying. Weird how different regions have different standard practices. 

And I agree that a better finish can be achieved in a spray booth with racks and fans and whatnot, but the finishes on the site finished cabinets around here are still very good.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I have built a few sets of kitchens in place and have done quite a few built in closets of similar construction and you either have some unreal system figured out that's as fast as a cabinet shop or im stupidly slow. 4 days I have been doing my current closet build and I'm still not done and its prob got 3 more days left. Its only 12ft wide too. 

I looked at getting the maple frame and door stock milled up so I didn't have that part to do but the cost of that alone was gonna put me way over budget so I have a day in that alone. 1 day to install ply panels and shelves 1 day to put together face frames, 1 day grabbing materials, layout setup etc etc and still 3 left on finish and building the doors. 

I just can't ever picture my self doing it this way being cheaper than a cabinet shop as fast and as good a quality.

Some people are money stupid so that's why they had their kitchens done this way fir the ones i did. The closets I do you couldn't get them into the room pre built so no choice there.


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## Reg (Dec 15, 2013)

ClaytonR said:


> In several remodels I've done, I've built my own cabinets. Same with my own houses. I set up in the living room with a stack of plywood, a stack of 1x material of whatever wood species, all my tools, and a 4x8 plywood table to build face frames on.
> 
> I build the bottom of the base around the room first, then pocket screw the face frame to the front, and drop in 3/4 plywood for dividers in the drawer boxes. Then I build the upper boxes and install them as they're built. It's simple, me and a helper can knock out a normal house in about a day.
> 
> ...


I can't see this being easier somehow. A shop has all tools and machines available. Spray room is right there. Heavy clamps at your service. Not to mention, once you start building boxes, they take up so much room. I think it would be a ***** to have to haul half your cabinet shop over to someone's home to make their cabinets. And finishing them where they are vulnerable to dust or people knocking in to them would be risky. And trying to have a few days where no other subs are in and out is always a challenge.


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## Jmhines (Jan 15, 2009)

I love how this forum gives me insight into how things are done in other parts of the country.

Around here what your talking about is the standard.

Cabinets are built on site by trim carpenters. They don't haul a bunch of extra equipment around...the only tool they use that they don't need for running trim is a table saw and maybe a router. With rare exceptions all doors and drawer fronts are CNC routed from mdf by one of a few companies, until the last year or so drawer boxes were made on site but we are starting to order them shop built. 

Face frames are generally cut out of a sheet of birch plywood, and occasionally stick built from poplar or pine, and face nailed to the bottom, sides, bulkheads, and shelves. Chamfer strips hide the corner joints in the plywood, and screen mold hides he plywood edges on shelves. Everything is built in place. All spec houses and the great majority of custom houses here use painted cabinets, so finishing isn't something that we worry about to much. As far as scheduling its not to bad...material is delivered to the house (the house i just finished was 2000 sf and used 45 sheets of 3/4 birch), trim carpenter crew shows up and sets up in garage with table saw and living room with miter saw, builds cabinets first so they can be measured for doors and drawers, then does running trim...generally 3-5 days later doors and drawers are delivered, crew returns to hang cabinet doors and install drawers, and its ready for the painter.

I have been involved with a couple of high end remodels where stock pre-finished cabinets were ordered but not from local shops. The local cabinet shops we have mainly do laminated type commercial cabinets.

Not sure if any of that helps, just thought I'd throw it out their for perspective.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Jmhines said:


> I love how this forum gives me insight into how things are done in other parts of the country.
> 
> Around here what your talking about is the standard.
> 
> ...


So what you're saying is the site built guys are having subs build the cabinets off site?


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## Jmhines (Jan 15, 2009)

Metro M & L said:


> So what you're saying is the site built guys are having subs build the cabinets off site?


Nope...nothing's built off site except the cabinet doors and drawer fronts and more recently the drawer boxes themselves.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

That's like half the kitchen.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

And that's what the op was talking about...


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Whatever makes you money. Ultimately it comes down to what mix of marketing and practices get the most money the fastest. 

Finding an independently repsonsible box maker is going to be much harder than a box screwer. You really want to be screwing those bxoes as fast and frequently as possible. What were we talking about?


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## CITY DECKS INC (Sep 4, 2012)

I dig it. Sounds like you have a market for it. If you have the market and your not into that high end market keep doing it. Just approach with caution. And as long as your not doing the painting then even easier. What's you tool set up like? I would like to see your set up in the field. I don't understand why kitchens are so expensive, wait so long for them and usually come in damaged or missing something. For us if you want production style cabinets I go to Ikea and walk out with a full kitchen in about an hr. Just banged out two this month. Easy Breezy.... They have upgrade soft close hinges and your out in a day or two. My stone guy comes in end of day one makes template and back in 2-3. If you want high end I send the customer to one local custom cabinet guy who is really high end, pro build kitchen design, hd or lowes. I tell them knock your self out out I'll give you a an approximate number and hard cost after they finalize the order. They buy it under my name and x % back to me from the supplier.
I don't care what they buy or were it's from. 
Send the dam picts when you ready and best of luck! The guys on this site are critical because of there standards or ego or whatever.


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## CITY DECKS INC (Sep 4, 2012)

came across this in file of go to stuff.

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how...-approach-to-custom-cabinet-construction.aspx

tried to up load pdf but it's too big.


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

Update: 

I'm in the middle of the first job like I've described, and everything has gone swimmingly so far. In two days, me and two helpers built all the boxes and face frames. All installed and sanded. It was a spec house, so nothing fancy. Kitchen, laundry, 2 1/2 baths. Mostly paint grade, some knotty alder in the kitchen. It was build and install and leave for the painter. We aren't even filling the nail holes. 

I ordered the doors, drawer fronts, and paneled ends yesterday, and they'll be ready on Friday. 

Saturday I'm going back with two guys and building drawer boxes (there's only about 22 drawer boxes, so we decided to build them ourselves), installing all the doors and paneled ends and drawer fronts, putting up crown, and drilling all the holes for adjustable shelves. We think we can finish in one day. If not, I'm sending back one guy to finish up the next day. 

Oh, and the owner added a knotty alder mantle to match the cabinets, so we'll try to knock that out also. That was a nice little addition which will make us about another $250.00 for maybe 2-3 hours work. It'll pay for a days work for one of my guys, anyway. 

Basically, my numbers were high, and everything came in under budget. I've even got some plywood and 1x left over. 

Charged $8,000, which was $500 less than the builder was quoted by his usual (cheap) cabinet guy. I have less than $5,000 in the job. If I pay myself $1200 for my time (3 days), that comes to around 6k that I will have in the job, total. We already came up with a few ways to work faster, and I think we could do most similar jobs in 3 days flat, even slightly larger ones. And, I generally think I could charge more than I did. I gave this guy a deal cause we were kind of experimenting. 

I'll post some pics for your edification and critiquing when we're done. The owner is very happy with the work so far. 

Already have two more jobs lined up, but not for another month or two at least. I definitely want to do more. The next two jobs are cabinets and trim together. I think they will be good jobs for us.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

We used to use 1/2 inch birch for the drawer boxes, and 1/4 birch for the bottoms. Dado for the bottoms.
$250 sound cheap for a mantle. maybe $300 or more.
Good luck.
Hope you are including set up and tear down time in your calculations.


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

B.D.R. said:


> We used to use 1/2 inch birch for the drawer boxes, and 1/4 birch for the bottoms. Dado for the bottoms. $250 sound cheap for a mantle. maybe $300 or more. Good luck. Hope you are including set up and tear down time in your calculations.


Pretty simple mantle, and I charged quite a bit more for it. $250 is about what I'll make on it. 

Drawers just like you said, glued together. Simple, but plenty adequate. We rip all the side material in 2 different heights (4" and 6"), rip the dado in it, hit them with a sander, and then it's pretty easy slapping them together. Some purists might scoff that the corners aren't dovetailed or some such, but they're plenty strong glued. My best cabinet shop has always made them the same way, and no problems. 

Set up and tear down is around 30 minutes each day. No big, and just part of each of the 3 days I figured it would take.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I'm liking it!


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

Sounds better for the mantle, guess I misunderstood.
Fancy doesn't always mean better.
I meant the day packing in and the day packing out, and all the clean up.
When we were doing onsite cabinetswe would be able to move right in to the next house. It was a lot of equipment to move.
I did enjoy the work,but it wasn't financially feasable with cabinet companies offering cheaper cabinets.
We did a lot of oak and maple back then, and would skin the sides and the bottoms with plywood,face the fronts with solid 1x and make the drawerfront from solid stock as well.
We were also allowed to have bon fires for the leftover wood.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

CITY DECKS INC said:


> came across this in file of go to stuff.
> 
> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how...-approach-to-custom-cabinet-construction.aspx
> 
> tried to up load pdf but it's too big.


Can't imagine building the face frames first.
We used to get the boxes installed, then the face frames, biscuted and glued.


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## CJ21 (Aug 11, 2007)

I always was taught to build cabinets in a shop. I do a better job in a shop.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

That's awesome it's working out for you. Up to the early 90's around here all cabinets were built on site. Plus you don't see that joint between every box that screams premade. 

Can you post a pic on the drawers you built? Is there a lot of clamping involved ?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Well non custom store bought boxes. 

Custom premade usually eliminates that problem it they are willing to pay for it.

I'm not building and installing any kitchen for 8 grand.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

ClaytonR said:


> Update:
> 
> I'm in the middle of the first job like I've described, and everything has gone swimmingly so far. In two days, me and two helpers built all the boxes and face frames. All installed and sanded. It was a spec house, so nothing fancy. Kitchen, laundry, 2 1/2 baths. Mostly paint grade, some knotty alder in the kitchen. It was build and install and leave for the painter. We aren't even filling the nail holes.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear it went well... something to consider... in the numbers you provided, where is the overhead (not materials) and the company profit?

From what you told us, you have a partner, patsfanindallas, so I am assuming he would also get a cut? 

Add in gas, insurance, meetings with client, ordering, scheduling, employee taxes, benefits (if any), WC, etc. I would be surprised if you actually made money and not lost it based on those numbers... one thing is for sure, you made less hourly than you think you did...

I am bringing this up not as a critique, but because I have had lots of experience with counseling owners in our field in understanding their real costs, not simply looking at the macro numbers. 

On paper, it looks good from a macro perspective, but when you break it down into actually what is coming out of your pocket to operate, you will most likely find you will need to be charging much more... 

One of the first indicators was when you said *"IF I pay myself $1200 for my time (3 days)"*... you should already know what you will make, and it will INCLUDE your time for selling the job, meetings, drawings, ordering, delivery, etc... not just the time you spend fabricating and installing...

One of the reasons why it is important to have PROFIT built into a job is to absorb overages. Your pay should not be what covers losses...

All that said, I am excited that you are excited... and two more lined up... for now, you will need to make up lost revenue with speed on the next two, but I would encourage you, before you sign anymore jobs for this model, to get a TRUE understanding of your costs... and the best part is, the time you spend doing this, PAY YOURSELF FOR IT... but to do that, you need to ALSO pay your company (i.e. - profit) and develop capital reserves and emergency fund...

Best of luck... 8^)


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

KAP said:


> Glad to hear it went well... something to consider... in the numbers you provided, where is the overhead (not materials) and the company profit? From what you told us, you have a partner, patsfanindallas, so I am assuming he would also get a cut? Add in gas, insurance, meetings with client, ordering, scheduling, employee taxes, benefits (if any), WC, etc. I would be surprised if you actually made money and not lost it based on those numbers... one thing is for sure, you made less hourly than you think you did... I am bringing this up not as a critique, but because I have had lots of experience with counseling owners in our field in understanding their real costs, not simply looking at the macro numbers. On paper, it looks good from a macro perspective, but when you break it down into actually what is coming out of your pocket to operate, you will most likely find you will need to be charging much more... One of the first indicators was when you said "IF I pay myself $1200 for my time (3 days)"... you should already know what you will make, and it will INCLUDE your time for selling the job, meetings, drawings, ordering, delivery, etc... not just the time you spend fabricating and installing... One of the reasons why it is important to have PROFIT built into a job is to absorb overages. Your pay should not be what covers losses... All that said, I am excited that you are excited... and two more lined up... for now, you will need to make up lost revenue with speed on the next two, but I would encourage you, before you sign anymore jobs for this model, to get a TRUE understanding of your costs... and the best part is, the time you spend doing this, PAY YOURSELF FOR IT... but to do that, you need to ALSO pay your company (i.e. - profit) and develop capital reserves and emergency fund... Best of luck... 8^)


That's good feedback right there. Thanks.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Leo G said:


> Well non custom store bought boxes. Custom premade usually eliminates that problem it they are willing to pay for it. I'm not building and installing any kitchen for 8 grand.


Yeah $8k sounds really low. I'm on one of my jobs today where I had my cabinet refinish guy spray the old cabinets and install new doors and draws and that's $6k just for this little kitchen.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Yeah $8k sounds really low. I'm on one of my jobs today where I had my cabinet refinish guy spray the old cabinets and install new doors and draws and that's $6k just for this little kitchen.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 105864


Looks like it could be a decent money Maker for Clayton. He's bottom feeding in the new spec market .... and definitely not losing his lunch money. Good place to be.

The Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex is it's own animal compared to many other areas in the US.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

BCConstruction said:


> Yeah $8k sounds really low. I'm on one of my jobs today where I had my cabinet refinish guy spray the old cabinets and install new doors and draws and that's $6k just for this little kitchen.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 105864


Adds up real quick...don't it?


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

Texas Wax said:


> Looks like it could be a decent money Maker for Clayton. He's bottom feeding in the new spec market .... and definitely not losing his lunch money. Good place to be. The Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex is it's own animal compared to many other areas in the US.


Lol I don't know if you mean being a bottom feeder is good or bad, but I'm not sure I want to be known as one. 

This was the first "trial run" of an idea I've been kicking around for 3-4 years. I didn't expect to make a ton of money on this job, and I did charge less than the going rate. Also, we're going to use 2 Saturdays and only one weekday, so I looked at it as a side job more than anything.

From what I can tell, if I tighten the screws and we can get more efficient, up my prices to around average, and turn out a job or 2 a month at least, then I'll be pretty happy. It's good for fill in work, and I think it will at least be profitable enough to make it worthwhile. 

The next house I think I'm doing is fully custom, not spec, and I am submitting a quote for cabinets and all the trim. I think my prices will be substantially higher on that job, as the cabinets will be fancier, and I'll be treating it more as a real job, not a side job. 

I do appreciate all the feedback.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

If you can make a decent living being a dirty rotten bottom-feeding scumbag, who cares what anyone thinks? Someone's gotta do it.

You're to be admired for taking your idea and putting it into action. If it works out, that's great. If it doesn't, well probably no harm done.

One of the most interesting parts of this thread for me is the regional difference. You just about couldn't give away site-built face frame cabinets around here. Occasional face frame in very high end kitchens, at ultra-luxury prices. Otherwise, 100% euro cabs, at all market levels, for years.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Clayton

Meant it as a compliment. You're turning a few good coins where the cheap/cut throat/low hanging fruit is. It's an accepted practice here and a opportunity. And contrary to popular contractor talk belief, you can do a good job on site. Been there done that, still prefer working in the shop. Hell I've modified many cabinets on site in existing homes. Same thing, LOL but not low hanging fruit $$$ wise.

Business is about finding niches that you can leverage for profit and more work.

Let's see some pics :clap:


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

Been awhile, but here's some pics of us building them.


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

Here's the final product. I didn't do the finishing


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Did the numbers work out better on this one or are you still working on that?...


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

KAP said:


> Did the numbers work out better on this one or are you still working on that?...


This was the first one. Been really busy with other stuff. 

I have the second one coming up in a month or two. I will pursue more of these jobs as soon as I have a minute to slow down.


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

Looks like things are working out for you. It is interesting to see everyone's take on this endeavor.

I've done a lot of site-built cabinets, but I like to just cut up the pieces in my shop and bring them to the job. 

I will set up my "shop" in the garage or in the living room and start assembling.

My approach is somewhat different than yours in that I build boxes, I work alone, and I do everything including the drawers, doors, and countertop.

So I will unload my box pieces and start assembling them. This involves gluing and screwing them together, with an clamp on something from time to time. All the box pieces are 3/4" except the backs, which are 1/2". I dadoe in the bottoms and rabbet in the tops into the sides. I rabbet the backs in. Any shelves are dadoed in. I have a 4x4 area in the front cut out for the toekick. The bottom of the bottom is at 4". I extend the back from the top (rabbeted in) to the bottom.

Next, I will prime and paint the boxes, then hang them. What I'm looking for with the paint is a durable and cleanable surface. With an oil based primer and a coat or two of latex, I get a good paint job. I was feeding a dog out of a cabinet once, and I put 2 coats of oil based on it, sanding a bit in between. I had a glossy smooth surface which I cleaned every day.

My base cabinets are all 22 1/2" deep. Next I'll show up with a bunch of 2" stock and make face frames. I'll sand these down on site and finish them with 3 coats of poly and a brush. Then I'll install these and get to work on the doors. Again, a lot of 2" stock. On cheaper kitchens, I'll just use plywood panels. For nicer doors, I'll use a solid raised panel. I can make the doors in my shop, or bring my router table and pieces and do them on site.

At some point I'll come and put a 24" piece of 3/4" ply over the base cabs, then some 1/2" tilebacker over that and install a piece of wood on the front, again 2". Then I lay tile. The kitchen is laid out to work with 3" increments generally. If there are any cuts to be made, I make a cut or several cuts in the tile going through the sink area. So I start and stop on the ends with full tile. I've also done this with 6", 8", and 12" tile.

Let's see, I do the drawers out of 3/4" plywood and 1/4" oak or whatever plywood. The bottoms are poly'd and I paint the sides. I put in a solid wood 4" toekick. I put 1/4" skins on all exposed surfaces, which means the bottom and ends of the top cabinets and any exposed ends of bottom cabinets.

Oh, I do my own freaking handles also. Do you know how many door handles you can make in a day? Once I made many, many of them and finished them and put them in a tote. I think I'll have some when I die. They are just a piece of 3/4" x maybe 1 1/2" stock with a roundover on both edges, then a cove cut on the back (where you pull them). This can be done in 6 or 8' sticks, then you cut them with a 45 degree angle and sand the cuts a bit and finish them. These things retail for about $4 each, and like I said you can make a few thousand of them in a couple of days.

I'm more into the big ass drawers now instead of cabinet doors and shelves. And I'm getting into the revolving corner units and pantries.

My kitchens can be quite nice out of white oak with raised panel doors, or quite utilitarian out of white oak with cheap 1/4" red oak plywood panel doors.


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## Cnrhodes (Jun 23, 2013)

*Site built cabinets*

I build all of our cabinets on site as well, however we use a different technique. I install a base first which is shimmed and leveled, then we build all of the boxes and attach face frames, then we install all of the boxes on the already installed base. Uppers are simply boxes with face frames that attach to the walls. I then have a local cabinet shop make all of the doors and drawer fronts. We build all of the drawer assemblies on site and install all of the hardware as well. We usually have about 2 to 3 weeks in a cabinet job, and only do cabinets for our own clients. Here is some pics of our stuff.


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## CJ21 (Aug 11, 2007)

Nice cabinet jobs!


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

Really happy that it is working out for you, but I still think that the mantle is priced way too low.
I just priced out a complete kitchen,with countertops and sink 
$5000 includes install.
It isn't very big though


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

And you think his mantle is priced to low?


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

I concur. No matter how small, that seems way too low.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

I am very happy I live where I do.
How do you do a kitchen for $5k ?


22 1/2" deep base cabs????


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Most of the kitchens I do the countertops are more than 5K. And I do mostly med small to med sized kitchens.


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## GCTony (Oct 26, 2012)

I love the "old school" site built method. Nice work. However from a time only perspective; We could build the boxes and install outsource doors/drawers a whole lot quicker than the OP reported doing them on site. Or am I missing something?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I keep meaning to snap some pics of some old "old school" cabinets for those who haven't seen them. No interior dividers.


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

GCTony said:


> I love the "old school" site built method. Nice work. However from a time only perspective; We could build the boxes and install outsource doors/drawers a whole lot quicker than the OP reported doing them on site. Or am I missing something?


One of my helpers worked in a cabinet shop for a couple years, and he thought we were a little faster than they were. 

Basically-

I get the materials delivered. Two days (me and two helpers) to build boxes. They're built in place, so once built, that's it. No install. And we build all the drawer boxes. 

Then I order paneled ends, doors, and drawer fronts. 

When they're ready I pick them up and go back with the two helpers. If I've measured right, it all goes on in a day.

Normal size jobs (1800-2000 sq ft homes) should take 3 days ideally, and 4 max.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

This is a small kitchen, the cabinets are about $2300, laminate countertops $800 double sink , decent taps, licensed plumber, plus cab removal and install.
= about $5000.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

This is the best I can provide. 
Before


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Oh. 1950s cabinets.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Oh. 1950s cabinets.


Can't tell you how many of those we replace over the years...


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I didn't want to say that LOL


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

We built and installed hundreds of those back when I was starting out.
High end custom. haha


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