# Sikkens or TWP for Clear Cedar Railing?



## ferd144 (Jan 16, 2012)

I recently replaced a 20 yr old cedar deck(existing PT frame was fine) due to evolving maintenance issues(solid stain that needed constant sanding,re-coating every year)

The new deck surface is TREX,however we did not like the idea of having a "plastic railing" so the entire rail/baluster system is custom milled Clear Cedar.

Some simple Google searches says Sikkens and TWP are widely used by most Pros.What is my best approach that does not peel,or require constant upkeep that will keep the natural beauty of the wood?

I understand it will still require future coatings...but i'm trying to keep the natural tones of the wood the best I can

Thanks Guys


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

I've yet to use TWP(what ever it is) my experience has been with Sikkens, SRD and Cetol 1/23 system. Srd is a single coat product which should last approx 3 years on the horizontal surfaces and about 5 on the vertical. I live in southern Ontario so these time frames may differ in your location. When it does come time to re coat the old finish must be removed completely. The Cetol 1/23 looks nice at the start but once it starts to peel it looks like crap, a good product for vertical but I would stay away from horizontal surfaces. Decks are a crap shoot, I wish you luck.


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## ferd144 (Jan 16, 2012)

carzie said:


> I've yet to use TWP(what ever it is) my experience has been with Sikkens, SRD and Cetol 1/23 system. Srd is a single coat product which should last approx 3 years on the horizontal surfaces and about 5 on the vertical. I live in southern Ontario so these time frames may differ in your location. When it does come time to re coat the old finish must be removed completely. *The Cetol 1/23 looks nice at the start but once it starts to peel it looks like crap,* a good product for vertical but I would stay away from horizontal surfaces. Decks are a crap shoot, I wish you luck.


Thanks carzie

I always assumed oil-based stains dont peel?

And I dont care if re-coating each 1-3 yrs is necessary/required ...but any peeling or sanding would be out of the question


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

Here in the great white north oil based exterior stains are a distant memory....all are water based to the best of my knowledge. The SRD is designed to be a fade away thing but it fades away in spots and in others it doesn't so you get a blotchy looking finish in time.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

carzie said:


> Here in the great white north oil based exterior stains are a distant memory....all are water based to the best of my knowledge. The SRD is designed to be a fade away thing but it fades away in spots and in others it doesn't so you get a blotchy looking finish in time.


I think twp1000 is oil based.


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## EmmCeeDee (May 23, 2010)

Could be wrong but I think Sikkens Cetol is recommend for vertical exposure only. It does look awesome however. We have used the Cetol 1/23 on clear cedar siding and it was a beautiful thing.


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## Damon T (Oct 13, 2008)

Both Sikkens and twp are great. I like that TWP has wood preservatives in it.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Is the cedar kiln dried? Sikens can work fine but the moisture content of your wood has to be below what they tell you, otherwise in a few months Sikens will turn into grey crud. My personal preference is Woodrich if the wood is wet, Armstrong Clark if it is dry.


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## ferd144 (Jan 16, 2012)

KennMacMoragh said:


> Is the cedar kiln dried? Sikens can work fine but the moisture content of your wood has to be below what they tell you, otherwise in a few months Sikens will turn into grey crud. My personal preference is Woodrich if the wood is wet, Armstrong Clark if it is dry.


The Clear Cedar is completely DRY,quite soft and flawless with zero knots or imperfections.I did a few spot tests on some scrap with Benjamin Moores oil product that a friend gave me(not sure of the specific name) but wasn't happy?

What ever product I use will be able to easily penetrate the wood imo


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

ferd144 said:


> The Clear Cedar is completely DRY,quite soft and flawless with zero knots or imperfections.I did a few spot tests on some scrap with Benjamin Moores oil product that a friend gave me(not sure of the specific name) but wasn't happy? What ever product I use will be able to easily penetrate the wood imo


 Then you want an oil base. You might have been using Benjamin Moore Arborcoat which is a hybrid, has water base in it, not good for anything horizontal out in the weather. If it's dry then Sikens will last a long time, but I wouldn't use it without a moisture test.


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## ferd144 (Jan 16, 2012)

KennMacMoragh said:


> Then you want an oil base. You might have been using Benjamin Moore Arborcoat which is a hybrid, has water base in it, not good for anything horizontal out in the weather. If it's dry then Sikens will last a long time, but I wouldn't use it without a moisture test.


Thanks Kenn

Yeah the BM stuff is a def no, as i'm 99% sure to use the Sikkens. 

I just picked up 2 Sikkens sample cans at the local lumber yard and are labeled CETOL...one in natural light,and one in cedar.But they say LOG and SIDING? The yard is just starting to use this product ,and didnt really provide any help (lol)

Is that the one your describing?


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

I haven't used Sikens personally. But on one of the jobs I've been working on they sanded down an old cedar soft, put Sikens on it and it came out great. The soffit was 50 years old and protected from the rain so it was more than dry. So the dry wood sucked up the Sikens, gave it a good bond and turned out good. It will probably last forever. I can't remember what kind of Sikens it was though..

Then I built them a deck and they decided to use the same Sikens on it. After a few months it formed grey blisters everywhere. It might have rained a couple of days before they put it on. But even if it didn't rain, most the cedar you buy around here will come out of the lumber yard with more than 20% moisture content. Which is a red flag for any kind of stain or varnish. I would have used WoodTux in that case, it would have turned out perfect. The builder that was there uses Sikens all the time,he swears if the wood is dry and clean then Sikens will outlast almost anything.

If you put oil base stain on wet wood then it won't soak in as much. If you use a dark stain and you notice some spots look lighter than others, it probably means that wood has moisture in it and its not sucking in all the stain. You might be able to rectify by putting more coats on but you'll never get the same bond as if it was dry.


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## ferd144 (Jan 16, 2012)

KennMacMoragh said:


> I haven't used Sikens personally. But on one of the jobs I've been working on they sanded down an old cedar soft, put Sikens on it and it came out great. The soffit was 50 years old and protected from the rain so it was more than dry. So the dry wood sucked up the Sikens, gave it a good bond and turned out good. It will probably last forever. I can't remember what kind of Sikens it was though..
> 
> Then I built them a deck and they decided to use the same Sikens on it. After a few months it formed grey blisters everywhere. It might have rained a couple of days before they put it on. But even if it didn't rain, most the cedar you buy around here will come out of the lumber yard with more than 20% moisture content. Which is a red flag for any kind of stain or varnish. I would have used WoodTux in that case, it would have turned out perfect. The builder that was there uses Sikens all the time,he swears if the wood is dry and clean then Sikens will outlast almost anything.
> 
> If you put oil base stain on wet wood then it won't soak in as much. If you use a dark stain and you notice some spots look lighter than others, it probably means that wood has moisture in it and its not sucking in all the stain. You might be able to rectify by putting more coats on but you'll never get the same bond as if it was dry.


Once again Thanks Ken

Without a doubt the Cedar is bone dry(it almost feels like Balsa wood lol). The sample scrap we tested with the BM oil stain excepted it quite well

But the Sikkens CETOL sample cans I tried yesterday look awesome. 

My only(last ) question is if there is a difference in their 2/3 products? The constant find on a Google search is that their best system is a TWO COAT oil based product?

Thats where im leaning to?

:thumbup:


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## EmmCeeDee (May 23, 2010)

The Cetol 23 is the second part of the 1/23 two-part system. A bit confusing, yes. It is a UV resistant top coat. Both parts are tinted alkyd oil base. In use I found the 23 made the color deeper and richer. 

Try not to work in the sun if you can possibly avoid it. The liquid gets gummy and hard to work with quickly.


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## ferd144 (Jan 16, 2012)

EmmCeeDee said:


> The Cetol 23 is the second part of the 1/23 two-part system. A bit confusing, yes. It is a UV resistant top coat. Both parts are tinted alkyd oil base. In use I found the 23 made the color deeper and richer.
> 
> Try not to work in the sun if you can possibly avoid it. The liquid gets gummy and hard to work with quickly.


Thanks MCD

Thats the system i'm leaning toward using as like you,I have seen very solid reviews from the Pros.And i agree it will NOT be applied in the sun.From the start we wanted to maintain the rich tones of the wood,w/o the constant every year upkeep

Whats your guesstimate for how long CETOL 23 maintains its rich color before having to re-aply it?Are there any other tips/suggestions you might have?

Thanks Again
This Site is awesome!
:clap:


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## EmmCeeDee (May 23, 2010)

I first used Cetol on a project in mid 2010, and last time I saw it was in 2013. In three years the reds in the clear cedar t&g had greyed slightly but overall it still looked good.


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## ferd144 (Jan 16, 2012)

EmmCeeDee said:


> I first used Cetol on a project in mid 2010, and last time I saw it was in 2013. In three years the reds in the clear cedar t&g had greyed slightly but overall it still looked good.



EmCeeDee...i'm def sold on Sikkens/Cetol brand and will show some before/after pics as soon as I finish

Thanks Guys:thumbup:


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## Skyvorima (Nov 3, 2013)

ferd144 said:


> I recently replaced a 20 yr old cedar deck(existing PT frame was fine) due to evolving maintenance issues(solid stain that needed constant sanding,re-coating every year)
> 
> The new deck surface is TREX,however we did not like the idea of having a "plastic railing" so the entire rail/baluster system is custom milled Clear Cedar.
> 
> ...


Sikkens is great but TWP...not so much. The problem with Sikkens is lack of flexibility, color change on the wood and UV protection which is a bit unpredictable depending on the conditions. 

Spar urethane has a high UV rating and is flexible so as the wood contracts the Spar moves with it versus cracking against tension. It would need probably 5 coats and recoated every 2-4 years depending on sun exposure.

If you want the next level then use a marine grade clear finish. It will cost 4 times as much but will be the best long term investment.


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## ferd144 (Jan 16, 2012)

Skyvorima said:


> Sikkens is great but TWP...not so much. The problem with Sikkens is lack of flexibility, color change on the wood and UV protection which is a bit unpredictable depending on the conditions.
> 
> Spar urethane has a high UV rating and is flexible so as the wood contracts the Spar moves with it versus cracking against tension. It would need probably 5 coats and recoated every 2-4 years depending on sun exposure.
> 
> If you want the next level then use a marine grade clear finish. It will cost 4 times as much but will be the best long term investment.


I'm abit lost?


Your reco'ing Spar/marine grade Urethane?

Arent there numerous issues(peeling,flaking,etc)?

Why doesn't EVERYONE use/recommend using that?

Thanks:001_unsure::001_unsure::001_unsure:


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## Skyvorima (Nov 3, 2013)

ferd144 said:


> I'm abit lost?
> 
> 
> Your reco'ing Spar/marine grade Urethane?
> ...


Those issues happen with Polyurethane. Spar is flexible when it cures and has a high UV protection rating. The key is several coats depending on sun/heat exposure. Ive used it on many hot spot doors/windows and never had a problem. I like it better than Sikkens because it does not change the natural color of the wood as much.


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