# Unhappy customer



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

renogirl said:


> Gutters along cost 730 for the materials through our building supplier. I think we will install gutter caps and demand payment anyway, he was told our company is not equipped to do seemless. We are in Canada and things are quite a bit more expensive here.[/I]


So you charged $1470 to install these gutters  we used to do a 2000sqft 2 floor house back in the Uk in about 1.5-2 hrs on avg with 2 guys. I know every house is different but that's a lot of labour even if you took 2 days to install it all. 

Like some have said though perhaps if we had more details about LF installed and how many down spouts and what type of gutters then we would have better idea of what your dealing with here. If the guy paid seamless gutter prices for seamed gutters then I can see why he's no happy.


----------



## renogirl (Oct 28, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Why was they not seamless in the first place?



The customer asked us to do gutters. We told him we did not do seamless, only standard seamed gutters. He agreed. Now that the job is complete, he said he wants seamless.


----------



## renogirl (Oct 28, 2011)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Wow. Need more details than that.
> 
> Here's the important part! What did the CONTRACT say to install?


THat we would install gutters. Customer was told at the outset we are not equipped to do seamless.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

If you have contract saying just gutters then it's your word against his that you told him your not equipped to do seamless. What do the other houses that surround him have installed? If they all have seamless also then more than likely he would have wanted the same. Your in a sticky situation here as it seems that he's been charged an awful lot of money for seamed gutters. I wouldnt have questioned they were seamless either if I had been given that kind of price. If you would have charged $1400 then perhaps I would have questioned it.


But really as soon as the guy asked for seamless and you told him you didn't do them that should have rang alarm bells. That should have been stated in the contract for sure.


----------



## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

Hey renogirl, I live in the same city as you.

I had a quote to do seamless gutters a while ago for a house in Kerrisdale area. it was around $1400.

You could have subbed it out and marked it up to your price.
You would also have given the customer what they wanted, not lifted a finger other than to dial a phone number, sign a paper, and deposit your money.


----------



## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

renogirl said:


> It is a pretty big house in Point ROberts and the gutters were about 36 feet in the air.


How many feet of gutter? Have any pics of job?


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

renogirl said:


> Gutters along cost 730 for the materials through our building supplier. I think we will install gutter caps and demand payment anyway, he was told our company is not equipped to do seemless. We are in Canada and things are quite a bit more expensive here.[/I]


You keep ignoring the question that so many asked...What does your contract *SPECIFICALLY* state?

It does not matter what you going to ask,it matters what you have in writing.

If you dont have the contract,arrividerci and best of luck.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Winchester said:


> who is the victim?


Customer obv.


----------



## renogirl (Oct 28, 2011)

Winchester said:


> Hey renogirl, I live in the same city as you.
> 
> I had a quote to do seamless gutters a while ago for a house in Kerrisdale area. it was around $1400.
> 
> ...


So are you a gutter guy?


----------



## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

renogirl said:


> So are you a gutter guy?


No.

I _hire_ gutter guys because they can do a better job than me-- quicker and cheaper, too. They also do seamless.


----------



## Crawl-Dog (Dec 25, 2010)

Winchester said:


> No.
> 
> I _hire_ gutter guys because they can do a better job than me-- quicker and cheaper, too. *They also do seamless.*


:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I know quite a few exterior contractors and they do not own a gutter machine, the jobs they do they hire someone with a machine who comes to the job site and runs it off for them on site and leaves, the exterior contractor hangs them.

Your fortunate this is Canada, go to court and since you provided a service for an agreed amount of money and the only dispute is type of materials you will get most of your money. 

Next time specify in your contract exactly what you are proposing or hire a guy with a gutter machine and do it the modern way.


----------



## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

chris is right. 
i just get the measurements beforehand, give them to my gutter guy along with a list of downspout, endcap, etc. requirements and he gets all the stuff together for me. will deliver for free, too. then i hang them. everyone wins.
as for this case...like everyone says, it's going to come down to what was in the contract if you want to fight over it. or you could offer to redo the project if the HO buys the gutters. from what winchester is saying it sounds like you wouldn't be out too much if you did that and then you'd have a happy customer which has its own value.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

there's no doubt they cleared enough money on that job to redo gutters with seamless and then walk away with a happy customer. At least that way there's no courts involved and you dont get a bad rep for not doing the right thing. You can put money on it that if you dont fix the issue he will tell as many people as he can that you had him over. That could cost you a lot more than the profit from this job.


----------



## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Wow. Need more details than that.
> 
> Here's the important part! What did the CONTRACT say to install?





renogirl said:


> THat we would install gutters. Customer was told at the outset we are not equipped to do seamless.


Then why didn't you put that you were installing seemed gutters? Now you have a problem because it is a He Said, She Said thing. The customer is being an PITA because they know that the contract doesn't say exactly what you are giving them.


----------



## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

Most of the time if someone just wants gutters, I'll sub it out. If I'm doing the roof and or fascia I will sometimes hang alcoa if I can get long enough lengths. I already have the ladders and picks on site.


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Around here, you can get a custom seamless job like this for about $800 installed.

About 122' total, clay colored gutters, wicker downspouts in 7 locations.


----------



## Art Vandelay (May 24, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> Your fortunate this is Canada, go to court and since you provided a service for an agreed amount of money and the only dispute is type of materials you will get most of your money.


actually Pt Roberts is in the good ol USofA 

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=pt+ro...Roberts,+Whatcom,+Washington&t=h&z=14&iwloc=A


----------



## Mrmac204 (Dec 27, 2006)

How the heck did you get the paperwork to work in the States? Point Roberts is in the USA.

I am with Winchester on this one, next gutter job hire a sub.

I hope it works out for you though.


----------



## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> You keep ignoring the question that so many asked...What does your contract *SPECIFICALLY* state?
> 
> It does not matter what you going to ask,it matters what you have in writing.
> 
> If you dont have the contract,arrividerci and best of luck.


My guess there is no written contract. You still haven't told us how many feet of gutters and downspouts there are. Here in Indy, I pay $3.00 per lin. ft. for seamless 6" gutters installed. If it's 36' in the air, then there would be a $0.25 upcharge. I'm sure your prices are at least similar to that. Have you even checked a seamless gutter person in your area?

Unless this house has _several_ hundred feet of G & D's.... you could afford to sub it out with a seamless gutter guy, trash what you've already hung and STILL make money. Or at least break even and have a happy customer, well.... at least a satisfied customer. That sure beats going to court over this.

And next time.... PUT IT IN A _CONTRACT_. :whistling


----------



## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Art Vandelay said:


> actually Pt Roberts is in the good ol USofA
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=pt+ro...Roberts,+Whatcom,+Washington&t=h&z=14&iwloc=A


Oops, I was on my iPhone, I thought the OP was in Canada based on someone else comment


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> Oops, I was on my iPhone, I thought the OP was in Canada based on someone else comment


They are by the sounds of it.


----------



## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

Chris Johnson said:


> Oops, I was on my iPhone, I thought the OP was in Canada based on someone else comment


their location says Surrey BC. I live there as well.


----------



## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Winchester said:


> their location says Surrey BC. I live there as well.


Maybe that's why there wasn't a contract. At least the OP hasn't said they had a contract. Sounds like a cross border raid in the middle of the night to grab a quick job and some $$$.


----------



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

what the customer paid has nothing to do with it..they were compensated to do a job at their rate..
the HO obviously accepted it, so it means most likely, they had other prices higher, or knew and trusted this outfit.

there is no one on this site that can say they never hit the long ball on a job...

the only thing that matters is what was either written or agreed upon..Most HO's have short memory when it comes not getting something they want or think they were entitled to..regardless of discussion or contract..even when detailed and discussed until you were blue in the face..


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Just what kind of gutters did you install?

A quality profiled galvanized?...I hope:thumbsup:

or a lick & stick box store plastic special?:no:



I can't figure why you just didn't call a gutter guy...:no:


----------



## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Mrmac204 said:


> How the heck did you get the paperwork to work in the States? Point Roberts is in the USA.


Lots of cash to the last administration:laughing:


----------



## WilsonRMDL (Sep 4, 2007)

I always hire the gutter guy to come out and run the lengths I need for $1.50/ft and all I have to do is hang them. Even if materials cost more think of the saved time and fuel cost of purchasing 10' sections


----------



## Phil's corner (Jan 18, 2011)

It is a simple question. The owner is asking you for the best job at the best price. It is your responsibility to give them a quote for both. However, who would install anything but seamless gutters,are you kidding? Always price your job as if it were the best money could buy and then go down from there. Then you will have no problems with gutters. By the way only an incompetent
contractor would install anything other than seamless gutters. Hope I helped. Sincerely, psr


----------



## Phil's corner (Jan 18, 2011)

If that's the case your contractor should know better fire him. Everyone knows seamless is the only way to go unless your a homeowner who doesn't know better and consequently trusts the contractor. Psr


----------



## Phil's corner (Jan 18, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> I know quite a few exterior contractors and they do not own a gutter machine, the jobs they do they hire someone with a machine who comes to the job site and runs it off for them on site and leaves, the exterior contractor hangs them.
> 
> Your fortunate this is Canada, go to court and since you provided a service for an agreed amount of money and the only dispute is type of materials you will get most of your money.
> 
> Next time specify in your contract exactly what you are proposing or hire a guy with a gutter machine and do it the modern way.


I totally agree, make sure your contract is very soecific. Seamless is the only way to go. Psr


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Tips how to install seamed gutters:

1.Google EHow to see how it is done.
2.Scratch you heard when seamless gutters are mentioned
3.Find a sucker(cheapo).
4.In conversation to sucker simply stick to phrase "installation of gutters"(WARNING: DO NOT SPECIFY seamless or seamed)
5.Git er done.
6.***** and whine when customer does not want to pay.

Oh and p.s. any person who can make even 100$ without doing a single minute of labor(by hiring someone else) is good in my book. Greed kills.


----------



## Phil's corner (Jan 18, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> I know quite a few exterior contractors and they do not own a gutter machine, the jobs they do they hire someone with a machine who comes to the job site and runs it off for them on site and leaves, the exterior contractor hangs them.
> 
> Your fortunate this is Canada, go to court and since you provided a service for an agreed amount of money and the only dispute is type of materials you will get most of your money.
> 
> Next time specify in your contract exactly what you are proposing or hire a guy with a gutter machine and do it the modern way.


Well said, make sure your agreement is comprehensive and you will have little problems. Psr


----------



## Phil's corner (Jan 18, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Why was they not seamless in the first place?


I can,t imagine pricing a job without seamless, what was the contractor thinking. Psr


----------



## Sprtman (Aug 16, 2010)

renogirl said:


> The customer asked us to do gutters. We told him we did not do seamless, only standard seamed gutters. He agreed. Now that the job is complete, he said he wants seamless.


 I'm not sure of Canady law but a verbal agreement can be enforced in U.S. Small claims or what ever may be an option. Last I heard it was only for $1500.00 or less, however, that has changed I'm sure.
It sounds as if you don't have a written agreement. I would try hard to come to some mutual agreement with the customer and move on. If you lose money chalk it up to lessons learned. From now on have a written agreement no matter how rudimentary.


----------



## Phil's corner (Jan 18, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Why was they not seamless in the first place?


Exactly, there is no excuse. Give the owner new gutter system and eat the loss. We all know it's the right thing to do. Psr


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Phil's corner said:


> Exactly, there is no excuse. Give the owner new gutter system and eat the loss. We all know it's the right thing to do. Psr


Sir,in 6 messages you posted,you expressed same thought in written form 6 times.

I therefore do give it up to your writing skills however,getting notification to read same stuff 6 times is getting sort of annoying.


----------



## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

I have no idea on the cost of gutters, however if you told the customer ahead of time that you weren't equipped to do seamless, then you did your bit. It is up to the customer to decide what contractor will deliver the best value for money, if they wanted seamless then they shouldn't have hired you-Providing you did inform them of this ahead of time.

However I would wonder why now the customer has a problem with it, if it was indeed discussed beforehand...I"m curious to see pics and whether this was a fixed price, written quote, with a scope of work, and if the customer's only concern was with the seamed aspect.

Here is where I think your problem will be: Even if you have a verbal agreement that seamed gutters were to be installed-you are canadian, correct?

As far as I know, the American gov't aren't too keen on us working down in Pt. Roberts, I won't even take my workvan down there to get gas. Any canadians I know who have done work down there, it has been under the table for cash. I grew up not far away from there, and spent a lot of time down there when I was younger. I know the customs people do not like anyone going down there with tools in their vehicle, and will ask what they are doing at the crossing.

So let's say you have a disagreement, and have to go to court. I think the first thing a judge will ask is what the heck is someone from surrey bc canada doing installing gutters in the US. I think that will be more of an issue than who said what with a verbal agreement. 

Unless you have some kind of license/permit to be working down there.


----------



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

"Tips how to install seamed gutters:

1.Google EHow to see how it is done.
2.Scratch you heard when seamless gutters are mentioned
3.Find a sucker(cheapo).
4.In conversation to sucker simply stick to phrase "installation of gutters"(WARNING: DO NOT SPECIFY seamless or seamed)
5.Git er done.
6.***** and whine when customer does not want to pay.

Oh and p.s. any person who can make even 100$ without doing a single minute of labor(by hiring someone else) is good in my book. Greed kills.



I didnt even know Canada had Italians..Canadians are annoying enough


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I sub all my gutters out. I know there price per foot for install+material and add $1.50 per foot.

Oh yeah, they're always seamless and I don't even need to ask.


----------



## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

renogirl said:


> how would you deal with a customer who agreed to pay 2200 for gutters and after the work was complete, he said he wants seamless gutters.


OK, here's how I would handle it if it was me Reno, have a sit down with the customer and get down to simple language, explain yourself and then offer a reduced price. 

Get a sign off sig. and move forward. 

Just remember next time to sub out the gutter jobs, take your cut and enjoy happy customers for now on. :thumbsup:


----------



## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

Paulie said:


> OK, here's how I would handle it if it was me Reno, have a sit down with the customer and get down to simple language, explain yourself and then offer a reduced price.
> 
> Get a sign off sig. and move forward.
> 
> Just remember next time to sub out the gutter jobs, take your cut and enjoy happy customers for now on. :thumbsup:


Exactly.

We are all helping you in our own way.

I say just hire subs if you can't do the job to today's normal standards (seamless).


----------



## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

kevjob said:


> the neighbors house of course!!!!:laughing:


Hey, there is customer #2 right next door! :thumbsup: :laughing:


----------



## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

TheItalian204 said:


> *We all had our share of our asses kicked on here*,so we remember not to do same mistakes twice.
> 
> i have been flamed too,more than once for inexperienced decisions.
> Thats one of the ways to get to know what to do and how to do it RIGHT.
> ...


:laughing: ... :clap:

Yeah, if they don't want to get their dress dirty, they are in the wrong club house. :laughing:


----------



## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

jamestrd said:


> Hey Joe.....(whatcha doin with that gun in your hand)
> 
> it was a Joke...does everyone remember laughter?
> (except for the canadian part)
> ...


No problem....that's why I asked. Don't know you...didn't know if you were joking or not.


----------



## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

TNTSERVICES said:


> All I can say is life is too short. Don't get banned over something that is this silly. I am sure that you have told a racial or off color joke in your life, and meant nothing by it. It was obviously a joke. :thumbsup:


Not for nothing but you're making it more than what it was. I asked him to explain his comment. You come back with me getting banned twice now. No reason at all for me possibly getting banned. He answered..It's cool.

If he came back saying he was serious...I would have taken offline.


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Hey, I want to know if the OP ever got paid.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Joe Carola said:


> Not for nothing but you're making it more than what it was. I asked him to explain his comment. You come back with me getting banned twice now. No reason at all for me possibly getting banned. He answered..It's cool.
> 
> If he came back saying he was serious...I would have taken offline.


It clearly was a joke thats why I did not react as hard as I could have. I am planning trip to NJ on X-mas,God permitting,so you would not be the only one taking something offline,but I dont think there is need for that.:no:


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Joe Carola said:


> Not for nothing but you're making it more than what it was. I asked him to explain his comment. You come back with me getting banned twice now. No reason at all for me possibly getting banned. He answered..It's cool.
> 
> If he came back saying he was serious...I would have taken offline.


Just trying to help...I know from experience that you will get banned for being confrontational.

FWIW: Next time just report the post to the MODs. And if you have to have an answer, PM the person.

Now back to the regularly scheduled program.


----------



## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Just trying to help...I know from experience that you will get banned for being confrontational.
> 
> FWIW: Next time just report the post to the MODs. And if you have to have an answer, PM the person.
> 
> Now back to the regularly scheduled *pogrom*.


Fixed that for ya. :thumbsup:


----------



## Kmroll (Oct 2, 2011)

I'm new to the forum. This is my first post. Kinda been lurking for a few weeks to just get a feel. Would have thought you would specify the scope of work in the estimate. Most homeowners probably expect seamless when dealing with a contractor. Lessons learned. I've made worse mistakes. See what it will take to make them happy and rectify the situation. I have found that more times than not you will gain a good customer.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

moorewarner said:


> Fixed that for ya. :thumbsup:


Moore,you kill me sometimes my friend :lol:


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

TheItalian204 said:


> Moore,you kill me sometimes my friend :lol:


And 25 posts away from the penthouse...:thumbup:


----------



## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> And 25 posts away from the penthouse...:thumbup:


I'm dying to find out what the Penthouse is like, is there like virtual hookers and blow? :laughing:


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

moorewarner said:


> I'm dying to find out what the Penthouse is like, is there like virtual hookers and blow? :laughing:


 

Oh Lord...:lol: :lol:

Now I am going to ask:..Dad,Mom, are we there yet?!


----------



## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

MW we're working hard and partying to get the place ready for you:whistling Somebody drank too much and hurled all in the corner on the rug


----------



## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> MW we're working hard and partying to get the place ready for you:whistling Somebody drank too much and hurled all in the corner on the rug


Sweet! I got my tux pressed for the occasion and I am ready to go. :clap:


----------



## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

It's gone But I can't unsee it


----------



## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

moorewarner said:


> I'm dying to find out what the Penthouse is like, is there like virtual hookers and blow? :laughing:


You can do whatever you like, so long as the bathroom is cleaned and Tech Dawg is pottied.


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

this has been an intersting thread.
i would agree that the O.P. should have avoided the whole discussion with a written and detailed proposal specifying seamed gutters since it had previously been discussed with the homeowner.

the cost the O.P. mentioned would be pretty average around here- so I wouldn't assume the O.P. raked anyone over the coals.

As far as "seamless" gutters being the best way to go- I would say not necissarily.
currently I would estimate well over 50% of the houses we work on have some sort of seamed gutter. half round gutter in copper, or Galv. or occasionally aluminum-----and K style in copper or 
Galv.-- .027 K style aluminum doesn't really cut it on a lot of slate or tile roofs----- but it's extremely common on the extremely common houses( middle america)
so in my opinion, based on the story I read- the O.P. didn't necissarily do anything wrong other than not putting "Seamed" in writing

i have learned when a customer wants to be difficult- they are gonna be difficult so you better write down a lot of detail- If you write "seamless"- you better also write down the number of end caps, the number of drops, you better specify any expansion joints and better specify number of box miters or strip miters-and which ones etc.
Best wishes,
stephen


----------

