# Sub Walked Off - Nightmare



## Adamthebuilder (Apr 14, 2016)

Titan - In your original post you state, “He has done some work for me in the past”, then later you state, “ If I would have been on the job more, I would have noticed he doesn’t know...” ( or words to that effect). Did he not do drywall work for you in the past?

FYI: The advice you receive on CT may not be what you want to hear, but it is what you need to hear.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Titan423 said:


> Once again please remember these are the prices they wanted...$200 a day for an 8 hr work day. They were thrilled to get it...at the time. Not to mention if I was to pay more than the going day rate down here I'd be seen as a mark and they would slowly take advantage of me.


They took advantage of you by stretching the job out 3 weeks. 

I will not pay by the day or hour unless you are a full time employee. All subs are paid by the job and don't get paid until the work we agreed to is complete to my satisfaction. It's really that simple.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Well, if that's the case, first of all, I'm glad I don't work in South Texas. :laughing:

If they worked "3 weeks, everyday", that's 336 man-hours, and with you paying them $2,300, they made $6.85 an hour. :blink:

I would not hold someone to a time schedule unless it was written, and even then I would be flexible to an extent.

I also don't let projects go on for weeks without checking in on them. :blink:

So, what would I do?

I'd let them keep the money, and hire someone else to finish.

And then I'd find better employees/subs, and I'd rethink my own business practices.

I still think that $2,300 for hang, tape/mud, and texture 140 sheets is dirt cheap. :blink:


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## Titan423 (Mar 6, 2020)

If you were down here trying to track down subs with liability and workers comp when its not required by the state of Texas you would never have any work. We do get 1099's and get what we can but what you speak of is not down here. Your lucky to find a sub that has a drivers license....


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> So, what would I do?
> 
> I'd let them keep the money, and hire someone else to finish.
> 
> ...


That's what I would do too.

And 140 sheets would cost me in excess of $7k where I am  (including materials). My drywall sub supplies his own materials.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Titan423 said:


> If you were down here trying to track down subs with liability and workers comp when its not required by the state of Texas you would never have any work. We do get 1099's and get what we can but what you speak of is not down here. Your lucky to find a sub that has a drivers license....


Like I said, if I had to live there I would not be a contractor given the way things are. It would not be profitable or worth the risk in my opinion.


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## Titan423 (Mar 6, 2020)

I'm open to criticism, thats why I'm here. He did texture work for me and re-hung a few pieces of sheetrock and the work was good and I was happy. When I approached him about this job he said "oh I've hung sheetrock for 8 months, I can do it" .....well he must not have known how because it took 3 weeks to do 140 4x8 sheets with three guys.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

hispanic communities are notoriously close knit & very protective of one another.

you will likely be blackballed and not able to get any hispanic workers.

they will come after you (physically) to get their money...

no courts for these guys...

probably not the workers you had but their "friends"...

watch out for vandalism on your job(s)... 

best scenario will be to square up with them and move on...

you live & work there & don't habla????....


PS_ who the heck stocks a job w/all 8' sheets....


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> Well, if that's the case, first of all, I'm glad I don't work in South Texas. :laughing:
> 
> If they worked "3 weeks, everyday", that's 336 man-hours, and with you paying them $2,300, they made $6.85 an hour. :blink:
> 
> ...


Was about to say, they make more flipping burgers :laughing:


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> I still think that $2,300 for hang, tape/mud, and texture 140 sheets is dirt cheap. :blink:


About $6,500 here, assuming all 1/2".


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

griz said:


> PS_ who the heck stocks a job w/all 8' sheets....


Someone who hires illegals to do drywall who don’t know how to hang or finish. 

Assuming 20-25% is ceiling I could hang that all by myself in 4 or 5 days. My hanger would do it in a day and a half. What were they doing everyday, drinking cerveza’s and passing around a hooker? 

$0.80 (0.30 hang, 0.50 finish) labor or about $1.20 everything here. That’s good money for someone who knows what he’s doing. My finisher can do 12000 feet in a week with a part time helper. That’s $6K/week. $300K/year minus whatever he pays his helper.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Big Johnson said:


> What were they doing everyday, drinking cerveza’s and passing around a hooker?


 :laughing:

How would he know? He never stopped by to check on his job.


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## Titan423 (Mar 6, 2020)

I get that...I should have monitored my job.


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

Titan423 said:


> Once again please remember these are the prices they wanted...$200 a day for an 8 hr work day. They were thrilled to get it...at the time. Not to mention if I was to pay more than the going day rate down here I'd be seen as a mark and they would slowly take advantage of me.




If you were to pay more than the going day rate, you would be someone that they want to work for, and you could choose the best.

And have guys lining up to take their place if they don’t perform.

It’s not so bad being taken advantage of.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Titan423 said:


> if I was to pay more than the going day rate down here I'd be seen as a mark and they would slowly take advantage of me.


Only if you allow it to happen.

The flip side might be that you get a loyal crew that does good work. 

If you keep tight control of your job site, and be firm but fair with subs, they'll do good work for you, make you money, and maybe bail you out of the occasional jam everyone finds themselves in from time to time.

That's the whole point of being a "GC".


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## Titan423 (Mar 6, 2020)

You are 100% wrong, sorry. Just because your paying more there doesn't mean I should down here. $200 per day is already at the highest end for labor here, theyre already getting the best of it.

I've tried to pay more on my day rate for quality but for some reason the job always seems to take an extra day....my point is I'm seen as a mark. I got some good advice on here and Im going to move away from paying the day rate weekly like I have been.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Maybe it's because you're not on site as much as you need to be. 

Maybe it's because you don't have tight control of your jobs.


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## Titan423 (Mar 6, 2020)

Yes and the magic to keeping that bad ass crew....volume. I'll get them for maybe one job but when I can't keep them busy they'll go back to working for the builder. Next time I do have a job and need them they'll say....sorry boss Im busy.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Cars, food, medical care, "goods" from China, all cost about the same across the country.

House prices can vary, but excluding the very high end in California and some of the larger cities, they are relatively in the same ballpark across the country.

So, that being said, 6 bucks an hour is not "the best of it".

Nor is 25 an hour, when you are working as a sub. I assume they supply their own tools?


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## Titan423 (Mar 6, 2020)

Another question....on a job that has 110 4x12 sheets and 20 4x8 sheets how many boxes of joint compound would a crew go through for tape/float and texture or is it hard to calculate?

I've been asked to buy another 22 boxes tomorrow, bought 10 this morning and 10 were originally bought when we started. Thats 42 boxes....that sound right?


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## MoArk Willy (Nov 28, 2019)

Titan423 said:


> Another question....on a job that has 110 4x12 sheets and 20 4x8 sheets how many boxes of joint compound would a crew go through for tape/float and texture or is it hard to calculate?
> 
> I've been asked to buy another 22 boxes tomorrow, bought 10 this morning and 10 were originally bought when we started. Thats 42 boxes....that sound right?


Exactly how long have you been a GC?
I think that you missed a lot of steps in an effort to do it on the cheap.
Stick to roofing. Being a GC is not just a job where you sit back, boss people around and take the cash. Everything is your problem, not the subs. You are the responsible one whether you like it or not.
Square up with the drywallers and get the job finished.
That's on you.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

JoeStanton said:


> I get the region part, but $330 a day? Your guys take 4 days for 2000 sq ft that's $1,320 and they have insurance, trucks, tools, mortgage ect. Cost on my 2 carpenters before I make a dime is $730 a day.
> 
> There's a big difference from lean and mean and illegal. I have a few subs who I think undercharge, but they only do 1 trade and are very good/fast at it.



Speed is the game in spec homes. 

Just to be clear, my drywall guy works with one guy hanging rock. They have a pair of guys who tape and bed, and then texture. 

I contract with the drywall guy for all of it in one price, and how he pays or how much isn't my concern. I write him a check for stocking the house with rock, and then a check when they are done. I let him sell me the rock because he actually can place it for about the same money as I can get it from my supplier, and my cost averages $4.35 a sq ft on the area of the house, and this can vary based on cathedrals, plate height, and actual lineal feet of interior walls. But it works.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

I guessing the framing was done by someone from a Nation that DOESN'T build homes out of wood stud, as they would ROT away in few years.....


And the concrete floor and footings are pretty nasty, as they too used "Labor" labor in stead of journeymen concrete masons....


So the Laborers that were hanging drywall for the first time, had to deal with cutting nearly EVERY panel to fit the house that CHEAP skate built........


Wait till the cabinet guys have to plaster the walls so they can hang the cabinet w/o huge gaps....


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## deckman22 (Oct 20, 2007)

I call BS on almost everything said by OP. I hired a crew out of SA to do S/R to include the tape & float when I built my house here in Bandera. All tex-mex crew that did a fine job and fast. Of course they were a real crew not day laborers hired off the street on the cheap. 

SNL made the same mistake on spec house he's building, common thing among rookies. Difference is he moved on and got it done without whining on the internet. 

Oh btw, you had better pay that check cashing place. Otherwise you will pay a lot more once they take you to court and win, ha.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Saturday night live?


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

Titan423 said:


> Once again please remember these are the prices they wanted...$200 a day for an 8 hr work day. They were thrilled to get it...at the time. Not to mention if I was to pay more than the going day rate down here I'd be seen as a mark and they would slowly take advantage of me.


They took advantage of you regardless. This was avoidable and it’s 100% your fault. You said over and over again that everyone in your area requires handholding and constant supervision yet you fail to hold their hand and fail to supervise them. 

They quoted a price to get the job and then milked it until they could find someone else to give them another deposit check for another job that they will probably skip. When you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas.

Stop hiring day laborers. At least go through a company like tradesmen international and get someone that has a history of working with them.

Did you think we were going to tell you that it’s not your fault and then explain to you how to get back your money and finish the job THAT you bid on RISKING your reputation?


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

WBailey1041 said:


> They took advantage of you regardless. This was avoidable and it’s 100% your fault. You said over and over again that everyone in your area requires handholding and constant supervision yet you fail to hold their hand and fail to supervise them.
> 
> They quoted a price to get the job and then milked it until they could find someone else to give them another deposit check for another job that they will probably skip. When you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas.
> 
> ...



Doesn't sound like anyone took advantage of this "GC". :blink:

He agreed with them for $2300, and wanted them to finish in 7 days.

They couldn't get it finished in 7 days, and instead took 3 weeks, but still got the same $2300. :blink:

They didn't win on that one, they lost their asses.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> Doesn't sound like anyone took advantage of this "GC". :blink:
> 
> He agreed with them for $2300, and wanted them to finish in 7 days.
> 
> ...


They got the $2300 just for the rocking... but they were contracted for...


Titan423 said:


> I am a GC in San Antonio (Mexico) and *hired someone for hanging 130 - 140 sheets of sheetrock, tape/float and knockdown texture for new construction. *


Whether or not we agree to the pricing is irrelevant as they agreed to it, got paid in full but didn't finish the job (not convinced the OP even paid the full amount [why would you do that?] but...} So now he has to pay in addition to the rocking, the cost to get it finished which was left unfinished but the sub was paid in full... never mind the cost of the missing materials (which could just be coincidence)... Any sub-contractor who quotes a price and doesn't meet the deadline gets their butt handed to them in the same way this guy is... all part of the game... you get what you pay for... 

Hopefully the OP has learned the lessons on display in this thread...

But, just as a side note, that $2300 is worth a lot more to illegal workers, which is one of the reasons why they agree to it... they're trying to make the sale...


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

WBailey1041 said:


> They took advantage of you regardless. This was avoidable and it’s 100% your fault. You said over and over again that everyone in your area requires handholding and constant supervision yet you fail to hold their hand and fail to supervise them.
> 
> They quoted a price to get the job and then milked it until they could find someone else to give them another deposit check for another job that they will probably skip. When you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas.
> 
> ...


 I always wondered what tradesmen international was, so it’s a day labor aggregator?


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## deckman22 (Oct 20, 2007)

Big Johnson said:


> Saturday night live?


Not quite, ha. Think son in law.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

I have no problem with illegals being exploited. F-em.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Big Johnson said:


> I have no problem with illegals being exploited. F-em.


The US destroyed Mexico, intentionally.

The only ones who profited were some mega corps in the US, and some scumbag politicians in Mexico.

The citizens of both countries got screwed, Mexicans worse.

Right now, if it weren't for illegals, no work would get done in this country. There's thousands of jobs, but spoiled white kids absolutely won't do the work that is being done by foreigners now, Mexicans, Indians, Chinese, Southeast Asians, you name it.

They are doing all the construction, truck driving, farm labor, and on and on. White kids can go take those jobs any damn time they want.

The whole immigration thing is just a racket. Illegals are a controlled commodity. This country, the big companies, NEED them. 

We just sanctimoniously outsource and offshore our slavery now, so yuppies don't have to see it, and they can sit and wring their hands about this "issue", while still buying sweatshirts for .29 from MallWart.

Any country has the right to close their border if they choose, but it has to be closed to capital as well. You can't have a border open to capital, but closed to humans. That's despotism.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Big Johnson said:


> I have no problem with illegals being exploited. F-em.


that is a REALLY piss poor attitude...

not all of them are bad guys....


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

I knew that comment would get a bunch of “they’re better than us” reply’s. They don’t belong here, they need to go home and get in line. BTW, most illegal aliens aren’t Mexican.


#lawandorder


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I never said they were better than anyone.

I don't do "white loathing" either.

Not even sure I'm white. :blink: :laughing:

All people are equal in the sight of God, and no one should be 'taken advantage of'.

Whether they belong here or not is a different subject entirely.

But what people need to understand is that they are merely a controlled commodity, and it serves the corporate interests to keep this hostility going, so they can continue to offshore slavery. 

And so Americans can continue to feel self-righteous about themselves, pretending they don't allow slavery. :blink:


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## JFM constr (Jul 26, 2014)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> The US destroyed Mexico, intentionally.
> 
> The only ones who profited were some mega corps in the US, and some scumbag politicians in Mexico.
> 
> ...


That was a Great read.Had not looked at it from that angle


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

As real Living standards rise, PAY must increase for nasty to do jobs, even ones that require little training, the ONLY way to avoid this "problem" with a 1st World economy is to CONSTANTLY import 2cd and 3rd class Neo- slaves that CAN't demand fair/ = treatment BECAUSE they are ILLEGALLY HERE and form a Criminal Conspiracy with every employer.


If a Nice citizen steals your $ out of your bank, should they get LESS time in Prison then a Nasty felon?

Regarding "hard" working Illegally working Aliens, I'd rather a Lazy person robbed my house and left the large screen and Gun Safe then get burgled by a hard working house breaker......

Arrest the Illegals that work 60+ hours a week FIRST, then the lazier ones, to increase wages offered legally present employees....

If your lively hood depends upon the work of underpaid illegal aliens, YOU ARE A HOOD too.

I remember when young teachers WORKED every summer to increase their annual incomes to supplement their 9 month a year teaching jobs, many doing what criminals are doing now for American criminal businesses.:blink:
Allowing the constant entry of criminal workers is almost as harmful to the American social construct as chattel slavery was pre 2cd Civil War, note that even pre War federal government HAD BANNED further import of slave labor, stopped its spread into any New territories....


The big difference between working free poor & slaves in the old South was slaves were feed and housed Year around....


If the young Mexicans that have been working and living in the USA had been forced to stay home in compliance with our and their laws, Mexicans would long ago revolted against their Oligarchy leadership scheme.


Always adding a few million Criminals every year to the USA's Salad Bowl eventually will turn USA into just another Nation run By Criminals for Criminals, like Mexico, Guatemala, PRChina, and Syria


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Adamthebuilder said:


> In hind sight, you should have had a discussion after 2nd or 3rd day of his production.


I use this tehnic all time. But go in both direction. If I do not like customer after 2 to 3 day I wrap and go somewhere else.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Fouthgeneration said:


> I remember when young teachers WORKED every summer to increase their annual incomes to supplement their 9 month a year teaching jobs, many doing what criminals are doing now for American criminal businesses.:blink:



Just as a side note, our principal of our school painted houses in the summers. And he was getting about twice as much as teachers did. Now all states pay teachers for a full year. 


And.....if you are a member of the National Home Builders, remember, they lobby on immigrant labor as necessary to get homes built.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Always adding a few million Criminals every year to the USA's Salad Bowl eventually will turn USA into just another Nation run By Criminals for Criminals, like Mexico, Guatemala, PRChina, and Syria


As I'm concerned it is about eugenics. I do believe what Madison Grant and crew preach 100 years go. Even USA presidents recommended back than reading of it.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Joasis said:


> And.....if you are a member of the National Home Builders, remember, they lobby on immigrant labor as necessary to get homes built.


In Germany they had program called "gastarbeiters". If they need you you can stay. Today with EU is different but entire EU is build about white race. In USA is different, who come in can stay and make anchor babies.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

No other Nation on Earth counts Illegally present Aliens for enumerating the 435 Congressional districts : Thus the 20-30 million illegals form the reason, ~ that 1/15th(*29*) to 1/10th(*43*) of Our Congress Critters districts are set out FOR Criminally Present Aliens......


This is just as Crazy/More so IMHO, as giving a slave owner more votes in Congress for every 1.5 slaves.... as was the deal prior to the Southern States Succeeding to form the Confederacy.

And the The DNC thinks the Electoral; College is unfair.......


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## Defenestrate (Aug 13, 2015)

Big Johnson said:


> I always wondered what tradesmen international was, so it’s a day labor aggregator?


Yeah, just a temp agency for laborers/carpenters (and maybe other people -- dunno). They're like a sub, so they cover comp/insurance. Prices vary, but they're not what you'd call cheap.

You call, say something like, "I want someone who can frame and build stairs", and hopefully they've got that guy for your timeframe. If you really like them, there's probably a buyout clause attached to their contract, or you have to use them solid for a certain amount of months. 

We use them occasionally, and they're a little bit hit/miss. We've also gotten a few fulltime permanent employees out of them.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

RE: Tradesmen international, they don't want the temps leaving for full-time work ASAP....
A lot of lying by shady workers.... and some by TI to workers and employers IMHO.

Some morally Questionable corporate marketing to their "captive" audience, that enhances the Owners' bottom lines.

Deducting from workers Pay for PPE in violation of OSHA regs.....

Very Stale IT in use. ? = poor cash flow/struggling or just poor management? lower level managers under A LOT of pressure to place bodies and sell the Full time help/ part time bennies model....

In theory, the InterNet etc... should reduce the need for these "slave traders" / head hunters that use the time delays and cracks in labor regs to exist.....

Long term, are we able to get and KEEP good help by paying the absolute minimum? Around here, Masons that are in the top 20% are only 30-40 % more per hour, while reducing some payroll expenses such as WC, and unemployment premiums per hour ALL YEAR.


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