# What the #&@! is going on with employee wages?



## Zinsco (Oct 14, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> So when a guy says he is offering $35 an hour for a lead carpenter employee position we can all agree that that rate is a lot higher than the national average here in the states?


The OP is in Canada.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

$35 cad = $32.67 usd.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

J F said:


> yes, _great_ pay in fact
> 
> so is it an _employee_? or a contractor?
> 
> would you agree that $35 for a legit contractor is very low? or is that good/high as well?


I couldn't tell you one way or the other if it would be in regard to a sub, but I can guarantee you that if you placed that ad on craigslist and specifically stated it was a sub position, you'd have a sh!t load of guys calling to do the work in a heart beat.

The sad truth is I think employees have a better handle on what they need to make then subs do. :sad:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Heritage said:


> I recently posted an ad for a lead carpenter. I was very specific in my requirements and some of the main ones were:
> 
> -Transportation (preference to those with own truck/van)
> -Own tools
> ...


I think what some of us (at least myself) thought, that from your post, you were possibly trying to hire a *contractor*, and not an employee, for $32.54 and hour, and bitchin' about how crazy it was for someone to price themselves at 65-75 as a sole prop, running a business....which is NOT crazy, expensive, etc. :whistling


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Also, how does the can. govt. look at the sub vs. employee thing? Is it similar to what the irs does here?


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Mike,
I'm not disagreeing with you that for an employee that is a good rate. If you go back to my original posts the numbers I quoted where in line with what you just posted for this country. I got those numbers from the state, which is probably a little more reliable then the sources you quoted as it is based on tax return information supplied from the IRS. The ENR wages are the average of open shop, union, and prevailing wage including benefits. The conversion factor for his area was 1.245 multiply that by the wages from my previous post (first page of this thread) and that is how I arrived at those figures.

The confusion came from the license thing. I think you would agree that $35.00 per hour is low for a billing rate for a contracting business. The OP explained the licensing requirement which appears to be different then a contractors license.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

so, it is an employee....why would 2-3 people out of hundreds (?) of replies even bother the op?

he probably got a few wackos willing to polish his knob for him too, but does he bring _that _up? nooooo :shifty:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

J F said:


> he probably got a few wackos willing to polish his knob for him too, but does he bring _that _up? nooooo :shifty:


That's just wrong.

:laughing:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> That's just wrong.
> 
> :laughing:


we won't know that for sure until the op tells us the rates _they_ wanted :w00t:


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

J F said:


> so, it is an employee....why would 2-3 people out of hundreds (?) of replies even bother the op?
> 
> he probably got a few wackos willing to polish his knob for him too, but does he bring _that _up? nooooo :shifty:


Great, not even 8AM and already a coffee rinse through the nose.:laughing:


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

double post


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## Zinsco (Oct 14, 2009)

shanekw1 said:


> $35 cad = $32.67 usd.


I wish America would attack and invade Canada. As an American, I have to wonder why we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, 2 dusty, filthy countries with nothing to offer. Canada, on the other hand, is a beautiful country with nice people who mostly speak English. Plus it's close, we could walk there. I've always admired Canada and liked the Canadian people I've met, it's a pity that we haven't attacked them.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Zinsco said:


> I wish America would attack and invade Canada. As an American, I have to wonder why we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, 2 dusty, filthy countries with nothing to offer. Canada, on the other hand, is a beautiful country with nice people who mostly speak English. Plus it's close, we could walk there. I've always admired Canada and liked the Canadian people I've met, it's a pity that we haven't attacked them.


:tank::gunsmilie::laughing:


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## TheBuildingFirm (Dec 10, 2006)

so you're the guy who posted the ad?


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

This thread has sat idle since 9:00 this morning - I was really into it. I think a GC up in north CT that posted that he was dropping his rate to $20/hr a few weeks ago - is either packing or looking-up the requirements for Canada's carpenters. :whistling 

At $35/hr and 2080 hrs per year I thought about it.

Guys chime in - lets not let the facts get in the way of a good discussion! :whistling

By the way $35 is too rich for my blood here in Denver and I sell the very high end! :no:


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

Just so you know I wasn't kidding...here are the emails the guys sent me:

#1- I made a rant in my ad basically saying- If you're going to send me a resume littered with spelling and grammatical errors then you're shooting yourself in the foot. So this guy sent me a reply entitled "compensay shun"

Rant man....If your idea of fair return is $30-$35/hr. i'm not in the least surprised that thu awd speling airer kreeps in tu the massages yuz get returned. That would be the starting point for a journeyman carp or insult; depending on which end of the pointy stick one happens to be on and when the vehicle and tools are added in; yup closer to the insult end o' the stick...While i appreciate that you want to make as much profit as possible for as little output; don't insult your intended target with a 1970's era wage base. The going rate for a man with vehicle, tools and talent is a lot closer to $75 than $30...Best of luck wit duh gie wit da hamma....D

#2 guy

Dear Sir\Madam,
In order to acquire an "exceptional" candidate, as you have stated, it would require an exceptional salary. 30-35.00 per hour does cover the cost of what you are looking for in a Lead Carpenter/ Site supervisor. For your info, site supervisors are paid more than you are offering, I know because I am and have been a site supervisor for many years and a carpenter as well. I have been renovating and building additions for more then 15 years. I have a vehicle and trailer fully stocked with the proper tools and miscellaneous material. For this I receive 65.00 per hour and not 30-35.00 per hour.
In short, if you want real, get real.

Regards,
Luciano 

-I'm looking for an employee not a sub...for the record.
-No, I still haven't found a suitable person.
-It actually scares you thinking of hiring someone, the more resumes you see the more hopeless you become.

But EVERYBODY wants to make the big money...


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## knothead (Sep 30, 2007)

The Canadian economy is no where near as bad as the US. I am in Canada and I am busier then last year, but i am more established and I was always willing to do the small little jobs that no one else would touch when the economy was going full tilt. Those same little jobs are now paying off with larger jobs. 3 differnt HO I repaired doors for I have now done 3 full bath gut and redo's.

Everyone can quote stats, they are usaully only a sample of the entire market they are behind current marker condtions.

BC is seeing similar growth as Ontario.
But $20 an hour gets you a 2-3 year exp carpenter
$25-30 get 8 plus years
$30 ish layout/second in command
Run a job site $35
Bring your tools and that a full kit table say nail gun jackhammers etc $55 plus or a sizable tool allowance.
BUT most companies have their own tool sheds for each job.

There are always exceptions to the rule where guys with lots of experience will work for peanuts I see it all the time and that is what the vultures/CL people look for.

We have the olympics here and there is lots of gov't money flowing and the GC's are still trying to cut pays back even tho the contracts are signed. They will still get full price plus extras as gov't projects do but they will still tell the workers that they have to cut costs meaning they take pay cuts while the GC gets a new truck.

Carpenters/contractors need to stop cutting their own throats to make a sale. Learn how to close a sale so you can charge enougth to pay your self and have some profit left over at the end of the project. 

I been lurking here for some time now and when things were good everyone seemed full of themselves spending money on big trucks new tools toys gadets instead of advertising/websites/passing out business cards.
I had lady call Monday that called me from a biz card that I dropped off at her home TWO years ago. ITs still only a partial day job for $500 but it is still a paid day instead of sitting on my ass reading about other people working. Not bad as I took 1 hour of my time and passed out about 200 cards that cost me a couple of pennies to have made. I think that a good return on my inital investment.

You guys in the US seem to make and excuse that the illegal worker/companies steeling your work but many just seem to let it slide. Not report it not tell the people who need to be told that illegal work is being done. INS used to respond to reports of people working illegally from what I been told, that is what they are there for. If they do not know about it they cannot do anything about it. It may not be PC but what good does it do when the bailif comes to repo your truck/house what ever because you are not working. If I lived in Calfornia I would pay some college student to drive around to jobsites with a truck that had magnetic INS stickers on it and see how fast they clear out.

Now that I have gone off topic some. Everyone has a price that they think that are worth, and given time workers will always want more money and companies will always want more out their workers for less money.

The OP probally should have been more specific in what tools the employeee would be needing what fits in a tool belt or a 20 foot trailer stocked to the back door. 
"promises of training" If they are busy no one is going to get time for training and if they are slow layoffs.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I assume some of those emails you got were from guys thinking you were looking for a sub. When a post reads must have own vehicle and be licensed, that is the first thing I usually think of. For an employee 32 dollars an hour is quite exceptional I think. When I post an ad I don't say anything about must have your own vehicle, I already assume you do otherwise why would you apply to a job you can not get to. I think if you reword the post, it will change. Also, remember this is craigslist. I had a guy who was a "lead" for another company show up to my job and was scared to be on the roof. 98 times out of 100 you are not going to find any employees that fit your standards.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I assume some of those emails you got were from guys thinking you were looking for a sub. When a post reads must have own vehicle and be licensed, that is the first thing I usually think of. For an employee 32 dollars an hour is quite exceptional I think. When I post an ad I don't say anything about must have your own vehicle, I already assume you do otherwise why would you apply to a job you can not get to. I think if you reword the post, it will change. Also, remember this is craigslist. I had a guy who was a "lead" for another company show up to my job and was scared to be on the roof. 98 times out of 100 you are not going to find any employees that fit your standards.


Never assume they have a vehicle. I have been hiring guys for twenty years, and always put in the ad "must have transportation" Still, guys will call that don't have even a license! The last time I ran an ad, I was talking to the guy, and I asked about his car/truck, and he told me he had a bicycle!! I told him " So, your gonna ride your bike 40 miles each way to and from work in the snow?? Guess he hadn't thought it through.


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## gregj (Jul 31, 2006)

"What we have here is a failure to communicate." 

When you say you're looking for someone with a truck/van and tools that leaves a whole lot open to interpretation. 

Some guys are thinking they need a truck/van load of tools and others are thinking that what's in their tool belt is good enough. Some are thinking you just want someone that will get to the job site reliably and others think you also want to put an extra 20,000 miles of their gas and vehicle wear and tear on their vehicle picking up your supplies

If your ad was clear on what tools you want the employee to provide and what your expectations are for the use of the employees vehicle then it might reduce the confusion.

One of the responses indicated you were looking for a "site supervisor" so perhaps the job description was also not clear.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Warren said:


> Never assume they have a vehicle. I have been hiring guys for twenty years, and always put in the ad "must have transportation" Still, guys will call that don't have even a license! The last time I ran an ad, I was talking to the guy, and I asked about his car/truck, and he told me he had a bicycle!! I told him " So, your gonna ride your bike 40 miles each way to and from work in the snow?? Guess he hadn't thought it through.


 

hahah now thats funny. I guess what I meant to say that I assume they have a way to work and back. I have had guys ask if the job is on the busline. Sometimes I am so dumbfounded at the questions guys ask I don't even know how to answer. I once hired a guy who seemed real legit and said he had his own tools. He showed up with one of those little kid hammers and an 8 ft measuring tape, the ones people give you with their business names on it. Some guys I am 10 years younger than and still can not understand their thinking but I have come to learn thats how it is in the trades


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> I couldn't tell you one way or the other if it would be in regard to a sub, but I can guarantee you that if you placed that ad on craigslist and specifically stated it was a sub position, you'd have a sh!t load of guys calling to do the work in a heart beat.
> 
> The sad truth is I think employees have a better handle on what they need to make then subs do. :sad:


I missed this post mike....he could post the same ad here for $15 and get swamped... :blink:


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Whew!! Just read this whole thread. As a carpenter/contractor in Ontario, the OP was looking for an employee. 30-35 is a good wage for lead carpenter here. For that I would show up driving any vehicle with BASIC tools.

If he wants the whole package, truck, all tools, etc. then as Knothead said, it goes to around 55/hr.

Some other misc. stuff - 

No need to invade Canada, you already own it.

In Canada carpentry is a licenced trade. This simply states the person is qualified. In no way does it make him a business. Here, typically the employer requires the carpenter to have this licence.

The simple answer is if the cheque is made out to an individuals name, he is an employee. It it's made out to a company name, he's a sub.

Off Topic question -

It was determined that if America had spent the billions it spent on the Iraq war on developing the tar sands projects in Alberta (which are owned by American companies) it would have resulted in more oil production than that which comes from the Middle East.

What's with that?

Heritage - did you find a guy? Let us know, eh :thumbup:


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Zinsco said:


> You are advertising for a licensed contractor with their own van and tools and you wonder why $35 per hour was met with such hostility?
> 
> :furious:
> 
> EDIT: Did you post this on Craigslist?


I agree. SOunds like you are looking for a sub contractor, not employee. If subcontractor, rates are low, if employee rates are high... Why not get your own licenses?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that didn't read closely enough :laughing:


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I think a lot of the confusion in this thread came from the difference in "license" between Canada and the US.

As I posted before, here Carpentry is a licensed trade. For us here in the OP's area, I think it was clear that he was looking for an employee.

I'm still wanting to know if he found what he was looking for.

And thanks to all who posted lots of informative info on rates and wages throughout the US. It is always good to know what going rates are.


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## Zinsco (Oct 14, 2009)

katoman said:


> It was determined that if America had spent the billions it spent on the Iraq war on developing the tar sands projects in Alberta (which are owned by American companies) it would have resulted in more oil production than that which comes from the Middle East.
> 
> What's with that?


We're not in Iraq for the oil, we're there because they attacked the world trade center! It's no different than when the Nazi's bombed Pearl Harbor, it's about pay back! Yeah!


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Zinsco said:


> We're not in Iraq for the oil, we're there because *they attacked the world trade center*! It's no different than when *the Nazi's bombed Pearl Harbor*, it's about pay back! Yeah!


:blink::blink:


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## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

I went to your site. You look like a big outfit judging from the pics. Leave it up to the HR dept to figure it out and stop sweating the details!!!


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Zinsco -

The Nazis bombed Pearl Harbor when they had their hands full? I think it was the Japanese.

Wages are just a balance between supply/demand and skill/bodies. The cream usually rises and the quality can be determined before you make a mistake.

If someone wants to much, then they will back down until someone else recognizes that they have talent and ability to make more money. If you don't take the time to screen, that is your problem when it comes to hiring.

Now it is easy to hire cheap and difficult to find the good future employees.


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

katoman said:


> I think a lot of the confusion in this thread came from the difference in "license" between Canada and the US.
> 
> As I posted before, here Carpentry is a licensed trade. For us here in the OP's area, I think it was clear that he was looking for an employee.
> 
> ...



Thanks for chiming in Northerner! I was having a hard time convincing them on the License issue.

No I haven't found anyone yet. My biggest qualm being that, as I read through the resumes and my general overall experience with some carpenters is that they just don't get it.

Your resume is essentially your "first impression" on an employer. These guys throw resumes together like as if they had 5 mins to kill. I just can't wrap my head around their mentality, and to me...it's very telling of their overall attitude and professionalism (or lack thereof).

Why do most carpenters think that Professionalism= showing up with tools. There's a myriad of other factors that makes you "professional", on top of all your experience.

Like someone else pointed out here, it's a sense of entitlement that is just plain wrong.

I submit my resume every time I go out for an estimate. Maybe some of you guys get away with scribbling a number on the back of a business card or just "throwing a number at the HO" and leaving your business card. But up here, in this economy, in my experience...that doesn't fly. HO's are shopping around and as I walk in through the door there's another contractor walking out, and as I'm walking out there's another walking in.

I spend a few hours bidding on a small job (kitchen, bathroom). When I walk in through the door, I have my business card in hand, spend 1/2 -1 hr with the HO, show them our license info on the way out, then spend a couple of hours building their budget before I get one red cent from them. Maybe I'll get it, maybe I won't.

But I'll tell you what, most of my clients tell me that my company simply operates at a higher level than my competition. Why is that? Because I take the time. First impressions are paramount. Maybe those other contractors are just as good, if not maybe even better. It doesn't matter because they couldn't sell THEMSELVES to the client. HO's are hiring YOU long before they are hiring your company. 

When a HO is making a 20-100k decision, they want to see more than a number on the back of a card.

Conversely, most employers are hiring YOU long before they are hiring your skills/knowledge/ability. If you can't demonstrate a level of attention and professionalism in a resume then everything else (your skills/knowledge/ability) are nothing more than a bunch of words put together to fill up dead space on a Word page.

So we keep on truckin :thumbsup:

I hear what some of you are saying, the good ones are out there...it's our job to find them.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

plus... you've been on _tv!_ :w00t:


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

http://www.wnetwork.com/Shows/Take-This-House-and-Sell-It/ShowSchedule.aspx

Next new episode is airing this Monday @ 10 p.m. in my area on the W network.

It's syndicated and airs in 7 countries (U.S. included) so check your local area for show times :thumbup:.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

<<<<<<<<<No I haven't found anyone yet. My biggest qualm being that, as I read through the resumes and my general overall experience with some carpenters is that they just don't get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Actually I think you are the one not getting it.
A true carpenter has very little if any time for these niceties. Resune? That is for a white coller job. 
I have had both, a white collar and a carpenter job. Trust me, you are looking for a carbon copy of youtself, which may or may not exist. Remember this, while you are looking, you are overlooking many individuals that would work out fine.

It sounds like a lisence is required to do the work, so why mention it?

I have hired men that look like death warmed over, that with a little nugging to dress or act better, turn out to be very good craftsman.:thumbsup:

Even if you are carefull in your selection process, you are still going to have to hire and fire a few to get what you want!


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

I don't know about a resume. I like to use a simple application form, with a place for past employment and references.

I dabbled in the white collar environment years ago, and it's night and day. I don't know if any carpenter I have ever worked with (or for, or employed) has had a resume...


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

CookeCarpentry said:


> I don't know if any carpenter I have ever worked with (or for, or employed) has had a resume...


Agreed. In most cases, the truly excellent carpenters have spent much more time on learning their trade than on "book larnin'". I've known people in the construction field who have or are capable of writing some very good resumes, but generally they aren't actual tool users.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Why is a fellow tradesman / business owner / industry brother who is looking to hire someone at a market rate, who obviously runs his company in a legitimate fashion, and who's only 'crime' might be wanting as high a quality employee as possible... getting so much flack?


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

concretemasonry said:


> Zinsco -
> 
> The Nazis bombed Pearl Harbor when they had their hands full? I think it was the Japanese.


:whistling


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> Why is a fellow tradesman / business owner / industry brother who is looking to hire someone at a market rate, who obviously runs his company in a legitimate fashion, and who's only 'crime' might be wanting as high a quality employee as possible... getting so much flack?


Easy, MIke, I was trying to suggest that he might be setting his sights or hopes a little high.:thumbsup:


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

Framer53 said:


> Easy, MIke, I was trying to suggest that he might be setting his sights or hopes a little high.:thumbsup:


I don't know if you've been paying attention, but there's a big problem with negative stereotypes towards people in our industry. Attitudes like yours, and those of some others on this forum only drive them down further.

"Good carpenters don't have time for those niceties (resume)"??? 

To you that's a "nicety"?

A *résumé* is a document that contains a summary of relevant job experience and education. The résumé is typically the first item that a potential employer encounters regarding the job seeker and is typically used to screen applicants, often followed by an interview, when seeking employment.

It's like some of you carpenters are allergic to formal business rules/practices/norms.

It's not the resume that's the issue, it's the mentality. I don't like labels, but this whole "blue collar" "white collar" stuff has really gone into your heads.

And we wonder why people look down on us? This is a small part of the reason why.

I don't know about you guys, but almost all of my clients are what you guys are so willing to call "white collars". These "white collars" live in the world of "white collardom". THEY have rules/guidelines/ediquettes/procedures/practices/tastes/standards/etc. FOR THEIR LIVES!

So when they go to hire a contractor, and the guy "bidding" on their job, does little more than show up, mumble a few words, throws a number then speeds off THEY think..."Well, w.t.f.? In MY profession, in MY line of work, if I want to bid on a job I have to go through ABCDEFG, and spend X number of hours, dress a certain way, conduct myself in such a way, do this and that in a certain way BUT "This" guy shows up smelling like a bad habit, 15 mins late, hands me no paper work, makes it seem like HE'S doing ME a favour then splits. Well F#$! THAT guy. Contractors are MORONS!

Being professional is a part of being in business. A resume, is a part of being professional. Good luck with all that!


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