# Add fixture to exisitng 3 way switch circuit?



## Matt723

I currently have a 3-way switch setup as shown in this picture.

(See edit) 

I have another light fixture I would like to add to this circuit. The problem is I am not sure this is possible. There is a 14-2 line run from the light fixture to the switch box where power comes in and I have no option of running more wiring. Is there a way I can add this light into the circuit?

Thank you in advance!


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## 480sparky

Take power from the existing light. :shifty:


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## Matt723

480sparky said:


> Take power from the existing light. :shifty:


I would if I could but I don't have any access to move the wire from the box to the exisiting light, or to run new for that matter.

The only option I have is to tap into the circuit at the first switch (where power comes in) if that's even a possibility which I don't believe it is.


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## MALCO.New.York

Simple run. HANDLE it!


Watch your White!


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## 480sparky

Matt723 said:


> I would if I could but I don't have any access to move the wire from the box to the exisiting light, or to run new for that matter.
> 
> The only option I have is to tap into the circuit at the first switch (where power comes in) if that's even a possibility which I don't believe it is.



Then you're just SOL.... you can't tie an additional light at the first switch. You either need to tie it in at the second switch or the existing light.


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## Matt723

480sparky said:


> Then you're just SOL.... you can't tie an additional light at the first switch. You either need to tie it in at the second switch or the existing light.


Figured I was pooched... just didn't want to believe it I guess!

Thanks for the confirmation.
Matt


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## 480sparky

Try calling an electrician.....

That rhymes with magician.

Sometimes, we can work magic.


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## Matt723

I have an electrician buddy coming over to watch the game this week and I'll definately run it by him, I just wanted to be sure before he showed up...

The only magic that can be worked here is a bunch of wire and some luck... up through the attic, back down to the workshop, over to the bathroom which has a drop ceiling, then about 5 ft to the new fixture through finished walls. It can be done, just didn't want it to come to this.

Again, thanks for the help!


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## woodchuck2

Have your friend check for a neutral circuit in the second switch box, if you have a neutral in each switch box then you can use the neutral wire "white" of the traveler circuit to return power back to the first box for the light circuit. Do not do this yourself, have your friend check it so this may be done properly if it can be done at all.


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## Matt723

Wouldn't that put the fixture in series?

I had an electrician over (my buddy) and he re-iterated what we concluded above and that is the need to connect to either the last fixture in the circuit or the 2nd switch box. When I mentioned this he said he wasn't sure what I meant, I most likely didn't explain it the best though.


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## woodchuck2

What i was referring to was if there was a line power with neutral in both boxes, if so then the "neutral" for the traveler circuit is not needed and can be used to transfer switched power to either box thus giving you access to switched power for your new light circuit. If your friend did not understand what i was referring to or cannot find a solution then you may have to run a new wire.


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## JSMHDM

Depending on how they ran the wire when installed , you could be creative and make this work as indicated by Woodchuck2. Another approach may be to run a wire to the Switch leg end of the 3 way adding a neutral from another close source. Then use the existing neutrals to transfer the switch leg back to the power end of the 3 way ckt. This needs to be checked out by a real electrician and makes sure no safety issues are violated


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## 480sparky

JSMHDM said:


> Depending on how they ran the wire when installed , you could be creative and make this work as indicated by Woodchuck2. Another approach may be to run a wire to the Switch leg end of the 3 way adding a neutral from another close source. Then use the existing neutrals to transfer the switch leg back to the power end of the 3 way ckt. This needs to be checked out by a real electrician and makes sure no safety issues are violated



How do you get the switch leg from one source and the neutral from another? I can imagine a hack or homeowner suggesting this, but not an electrician. :no:


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## JSMHDM

Again it depends on how it was wired - if it is on the same ckt as often it is then you have the same netural ckt - that is why you need a REAL electrican to do it "This needs to be checked out by a real electrician and makes sure no safety issues are violated "


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## woodchuck2

Now i have a question then, if someone puts line power and the light circuit in one box, runs a 3-way circuit to a second box and uses the neutral wire for the switched loop then they are a hack? This basically is what i am describing with the exception that whomever wired the home was smart enough to put line power with neutral in every switch box. I myself prefer to put line power in every switch box whether needed or not or would that be hack work?


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## MALCO.New.York

Can someone explain to me how a Neutral is in any way Isolated or Circuited?

A Neutral is a Neutral is a Neutral. They ALL terminate to a common bar and therefore are one giant COMMON wire. Are they not?

I am NOT speaking about "Code" terms, I am speaking about ACTUAL terms.


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## 480sparky

woodchuck2 said:


> Now i have a question then, if someone puts line power and the light circuit in one box, runs a 3-way circuit to a second box and uses the neutral wire for the switched loop then they are a hack?


If I understand you correctly, this is what most call a 'dead-end' 3-way. The power is fed into one switch box, then a 3-wire is run to the second box, using on for the hot to feed the 'far' 3-way, and the other two as travellers. The switched portion of the circuit, or 'switch leg', then goes from the first box to the light. There is no neutral present at the 'far' box, as the white is used (and marked) as a hot. No, this is not hack work, and is common.



woodchuck2 said:


> This basically is what i am describing with the exception that whomever wired the home was smart enough to put line power with neutral in every switch box. I myself prefer to put line power in every switch box whether needed or not or would that be hack work?


Putting line power in every box is not hack, either. It's a design choice. Money might be an issue in tract (cookie-cutter) houses, but that's between you and the person cutting the checks.


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## 480sparky

MALCO.New.York said:


> Can someone explain to me how a Neutral is in any way Isolated or Circuited?
> 
> A Neutral is a Neutral is a Neutral. They ALL terminate to a common bar and therefore are one giant COMMON wire. Are they not?
> 
> I am NOT speaking about "Code" terms, I am speaking about ACTUAL terms.


I've never head of a neutral referred to in your 'actual' terms. :no:


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## MALCO.New.York

480sparky said:


> I've never head of a neutral referred to in your 'actual' terms. :no:


That was helpful. Thanks!


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## woodchuck2

480sparky said:


> If I understand you correctly, this is what most call a 'dead-end' 3-way. The power is fed into one switch box, then a 3-wire is run to the second box, using on for the hot to feed the 'far' 3-way, and the other two as travellers. The switched portion of the circuit, or 'switch leg', then goes from the first box to the light. There is no neutral present at the 'far' box, as the white is used (and marked) as a hot. No, this is not hack work, and is common.
> 
> 
> 
> Putting line power in every box is not hack, either. It's a design choice. Money might be an issue in tract (cookie-cutter) houses, but that's between you and the person cutting the checks.



Alright then, i just wanted to clear that up as i took the "hack" statement personal to the advice i was referring the OP to. I understand what you were saying with needing the same neutral circuit in both boxes, especially for an GFCI or AFCI circuit. This could work with a neutral from another circuit but would be wrong.


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## 480sparky

woodchuck2 said:


> ........especially for an GFCI or AFCI circuit. This could work with a neutral from another circuit but would be wrong.


If either circuit is GFCId or AFCId, then it won't work..... it will trip.


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## JSMHDM

Hmm all this about the neutral? You guys do commercial work on single or three phase? You know the main concern is to not overload the neutral. NEC requires all hot conductors to be in the same cable or raceway with *a *neutral. It is a single network and bonded at the main service. The point is to provide a current caring return for the connected load. We could have 3 hots to a single neutral on a 3 phase Y system. If you add GFI etc then all bets are off as Sparky480 said.


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## 480sparky

JSMHDM said:


> ........NEC requires all hot conductors to be in the same cable or raceway with *a *neutral...........


No, it says it must be in the same cable or raceway as the _circuits' _neutral, not just _any_ neutral. 300.3(B).


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## JSMHDM

and it is !


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## woodchuck2

480sparky said:


> If either circuit is GFCId or AFCId, then it won't work..... it will trip.


Exactly, must be the same neutral.


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## Matt723

Wow! I leave for a few days and all heck breaks loose...

I'm going to print this out and give is to my electrician to read, hopefully there is something that can be done even though he already explained that this would require another wire.

Thanks again guys!


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## KennMacMoragh

Matt723 said:


> Wow! I leave for a few days and all heck breaks loose...
> 
> I'm going to print this out and give is to my electrician to read, hopefully there is something that can be done even though he already explained that this would require another wire.
> 
> Thanks again guys!


He will probably laugh. I find in remodels, there's always more than one way to wire in your circuits. When you have trouble accessing something, then you just have to be creative and improvise. Consider running things into the crawl space or attic to minimize tearing out sheetrock. But usually there is no way around it, you will just have to do some demolitioning if you want to get it done. Most people here could probably figure it out for you, but they would have to actually be there and see it.


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