# Nails in Water Line



## JMK (Jul 7, 2011)

I recently received a letter from an attorney seeking payment for water damage to a home where I installed the new plumbing. The work was done almost 6 years ago. A plumbing permit was obtained and all work passed inspection. The damage to the home was caused by 2 finishing nails that struck the water line. The leak apparently started while they were out of town for a few days and caused $118,000.00 in damages (according to the homeowner). I have general liability insurance but don't want to claim this damage as I'm sure it will cause my premium to go up. Has anyone here ever encountered a situation like this? Or does anyone have an opinion on who should be held responsible?


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

Either hand it to the your insurance and let them hash it out or hash it out yourself. the last thing I would worry about in this situation is your premium. There's a reason why we have insurance, use it. It sounds like the home owners insurance is subrogating against you, wheter it's your fault or not, you'll still be named in the suit. Sound like a hard case for them, theres no way for them to prove that place hasnt been remodeled in the past 6 years. I've seen nails last a while in pvc but not 6 years.


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## Redliz75 (Jun 23, 2011)

BrandConst said:


> Either hand it to the your insurance and let them hash it out or hash it out yourself. the last thing I would worry about in this situation is your premium. There's a reason why we have insurance, use it. It sounds like the home owners insurance is subrogating against you, wheter it's your fault or not, you'll still be named in the suit. Sound like a hard case for them, theres no way for them to prove that place hasnt been remodeled in the past 6 years. I've seen nails last a while in pvc but not 6 years.



He sould not hash it out himself. There may be fine print that voids his policy if he does so. If he tries it himself, he may do damage to his case. Let the insurance co. handle it. They are the ones on the hook and have attorneys who know what to do. Plumbers should not play attorney and attorneys should not play plumber or electrician!


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

As long as the plumbing was installed with guards and properly inspected I see no way this can come back on you.
Finish nails? The trim man did it. He must be out of business for them to come after the plumber.
But I would say let the insurance company hash it out between themselves.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Yes, I'd send it to the insurance company. I doubt that finish nails in the pipe is your problem but, let the insurance company deal with it. You are obligated to inform them anyway.


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## JMK (Jul 7, 2011)

I just sent over all the paperwork (permits, inspection reports, etc.) to my insurance. I guess I'm going to let them handle it. I definitely don't want my premium to go up, but I feel like the homeowner's insurance company is barking up the wrong tree and I don't want my insurance paying for something that isn't my fault. And I'm betting that the trim guy doesn't have insurance. Oh well, I suppose they'll do whatever they think is cheapest. And I agree with you on the nails in pvc sometimes taking years to start leaking. Seen that happen a hundred times.


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## JMK (Jul 7, 2011)

The homeowner's insurance company hired an engineer to go out and inspect the damage. In his report, he claims there wasn't a guard installed on the line. We've always installed guards in accordance with local plumbing codes, and according to the building inspector we wouldn't have been able to pass inspection if they weren't installed. However, we were not called out to look at the damage when it occurred and therefore have no pictures, etc. to provide as proof.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

Redliz75 said:


> He sould not hash it out himself. There may be fine print that voids his policy if he does so. If he tries it himself, he may do damage to his case. Let the insurance co. handle it. They are the ones on the hook and have attorneys who know what to do. Plumbers should not play attorney and attorneys should not play plumber or electrician!


Hey Red..I guess you didn't read my fine print, I told him to use the insurance. It's a subrogation case, if it were a fire and there was a drywall nail thru an electrical wire...who do you think is going to get named? Drywall sub and electrician...doesnt matter whos fault it is. .


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## Redliz75 (Jun 23, 2011)

BrandConst said:


> Hey Red..I guess you didn't read my fine print, I told him to use the insurance. It's a subrogation case, if it were a fire and there was a drywall nail thru an electrical wire...who do you think is going to get named? Drywall sub and electrician...doesnt matter whos fault it is. I can't tell you how many depositions I've been to.



Sweetie, I don't mean to be contentious. I just hate to see the guy do something that may void his insurance policy. I do not own a business, I am an employee. I do know that there is a reason the insurance companies tell you not to discuss fault after a car wreck. I just don't want to see the guy do something he will regret.

The NEC requires at least 1 1/4 inches from the edge of a framing member, or a UL listed plate must be installed. I have to imagine that plumbing codes have a similar requirement.


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## JHC (Jun 4, 2010)

Call your agent, let them handle it. Six years is a long time for a leak to show up.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

6 years later?


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## TimberlineMD (Jan 15, 2008)

I have driven finish nails through plate protectors many times.


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## thomasjmarino (May 1, 2011)

Just another lowlife attorney suing everyone possible.
Have you checked with any of the other contractors that worked on that project to see if they are being sued?
Some a-hole engineer who was hired by either the homeowner or their attorney comes out and backs them up?
Gee, there's a surprise!
Did any of them contact you to be there when this guy did his examination?
Should have.

As the others say, let the insurance company handle it.
Hopefully it will go away.
If not, you always have the option of shutting down your business and starting up another.
Not out of the ordinary.

Good Luck!!!


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Reading things like this makes me want to become a gypsy contractor and just say screw it. Insurance is worthless.

You're damned if you do. Damned if you don't.


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## thomasjmarino (May 1, 2011)

Greg Di said:


> Reading things like this makes me want to become a gypsy contractor and just say screw it. Insurance is worthless.
> 
> You're damned if you do. Damned if you don't.


Biggest ripoff in the world!! :furious:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Well if you never installed all that nasty plumbing the carpenter would have never hit it with his errant nail. :w00t:

I think they are shooting fish in a barrel and trying to find someone stupid enough to pay. 

A plumbing leak 6 years down the road caused by a nail through the plumbing. Good luck with someone pinning that on you. I think you are pretty safe.


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## thomasjmarino (May 1, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Well if you never installed all that nasty plumbing the carpenter would have never hit it with his errant nail. :w00t:
> 
> I think they are shooting fish in a barrel and trying to find someone stupid enough to pay.
> 
> A plumbing leak 6 years down the road caused by a nail through the plumbing. Good luck with someone pinning that on you. I think you are pretty safe.


But be prepared just in case!! :thumbsup:


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Really....:blink: 
I would think if you punch a "finishing" nail through "Copper plumbing, it would leak almost instantaniously......not 6 years later....... 

B,


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

6 years after it was installed? How on earth is that your fault? For one that finish nail would rust out far faster than 6 years. I have had coated screws rust out in less than 2 weeks to the point the screw come out and then the pipe started to leak. A finish nail would rust out far quicker than a screw. They also should have taken pictures of the issue before they removed it. For all that you know they hit it them self and then put the blame on you. It would have been in their interest to keep the evidence and proof with a picture. If they have neither of the above then they could blame anyone.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

I'm glad I do all my own trim work and I'm there from the beginning. I don't know how trim guys go into a house and know where and where not to nail. You can't put a nail plate everywhere. There are guys who nail where there isn't a stud, etc and how can you know if they are going to do this.

I hope this works out for you. I don't see how this is your fault at all. I hope your insurance company protects you. Ask them about your premium. I don't see how the homeowners can have a case 6 yrs later. If there was a leak, they should have called you in there first.


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## Insuranceclaims (Aug 31, 2009)

JMK said:


> @VinylHanger
> Oh, our insurance company has decided to increase our premium from about $12,000 to $21,000 a year. They've made this decision before determining whether or not they are going to pay this claim. Needless to say, I'm currently looking for another insurance company before we're up for renewal.


....drifting a little from the main purpose of this post, but I wanted to make this comment so all could have something to think about....Oh, our insurance company has decided to increase our premium from about $12,000 to $21,000 a year. They've made this decision before determining whether or not they are going to pay this claim.......let's assume that this increase is not due to any reasons, did you ask them why the $9,000 increase? If not,why? Your claims history usually follows you from carrier to carrier. You could be looked at as a risk. All the more reason to find out whether the nail issue was really your fault or not......if you don't stand up for yourself, no one else will; surely, not your carrier. To the carrier, it doesn't matter whether you were at fault or not, by raising your premiums, they will either reclaim their pay out or get rid of you or make you voluntarily change carriers.

When I don't like what someone tells me, my favorite two words are "Prove It."

This is just a reminder that if you turn a claim over to your carrier, you should still stay involved to protect your own reputation.

One of the main priorities in an insurance claim is to determine the Source of Loss.......Servpro should have discovered this during their Emergency Services and documented such.


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## Insuranceclaims (Aug 31, 2009)

rayh78 said:


> Things have got a lot harder with insurance companies.
> You have a rating just like a credit score.
> Even just a call to your agent for what seem like a simple question has to be reported and may effect your rating. Much less a claim.
> Even with homeowners. Currently have a Job caused by some flood damage. Homeowner called Insurance and just asked if he would be covered. But told agent he would just go ahead and cover the damage himself. 2k damages and 1500.00 deductible.
> ...


===============

Here is another example for all................Agents are only licensed to sell insurance; Adjusters/claims departments determine claims coverage. Many agents are required to notify the carrier if you call to ask a general question concerning a potential claim. 

When a claim is filed, there are different degrees of flags for canceled claims or filed claims. How is a property owner supposed to make a decision?....know your deductible....know the source of loss.....call a qualified restoration contractor, who can give you a rough estimate for emergency service and repairs; usually they will work with you if you pay cash. I usually present all options to the insured, and suggest their best course of action.

In the post above, the carrier was notified for two flags: Claims was notified for a possible loss, and Underwriting was notified for the insured using his primary residence as business rental property.


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## TarahGruber (Jan 3, 2012)

JMK said:


> I recently received a letter from an attorney seeking payment for water damage to a home where I installed the new plumbing. The work was done almost 6 years ago. A plumbing permit was obtained and all work passed inspection. The damage to the home was caused by 2 finishing nails that struck the water line. The leak apparently started while they were out of town for a few days and caused $118,000.00 in damages (according to the homeowner). I have general liability insurance but don't want to claim this damage as I'm sure it will cause my premium to go up. Has anyone here ever encountered a situation like this? Or does anyone have an opinion on who should be held responsible?


Turn in that claim to your insurance company. They will cover not only the 118K (if you are actually held responsible to pay it) but they will also cover your legal defense. Trust me, most contractors can't afford the lawyers that have already there for you. The amount that your insurance will go up next year is insignificant compared to the potential legal costs.


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