# How to see inside walls?



## JPV123 (Sep 14, 2005)

Hey Guys, I finish a lot of 3rd floors on houses that are 2-5 years old. The builder usually will rough in plumbing for a bathroom. Anyway I am getting a lot of calls 2-3 weeks after we finish with the customer telling me that a wall on the second floor or first floor (usually inside a closet) is wet and has mildew/mold on it. I go back and sure enough when the builders closet shelving sub or kitchen cabent sub drilled into the wall they made a hole in the PVC drain pipe. I've seen as many as 10 penetrations on one pipe. The builders have always fixed them for the customers for free. Is there a way for me to find and trace the pipe all the way down to the basement/crawl space? Like a stud finder finds studs. This way I can avoid having the homeowner find out the hard way.


----------



## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

There are many cameras which can see inside of pipes. You could always drill holes in the wall and perhaps use the same camera for observing the walls.


----------



## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

I saw these X-Ray glasses on the back of a comic book, I haven't tried them so I don't know how well they work. 

Actually these drains must be isolated from the others if the leaks don't show up until you add the new plumbing. It should be easy to follow the drain lines because they will most likely go straight down to the basement or crawl space, you can't run parallel for any distance without a pitch. Anyhow when you find it in the basement/crawl space, cut it (before it meets with the other drains), cap it, and pressure test (put an air pressure gauge on the drain and fill with air) it for a day or two, if there's no pressure drop your OK, if there's a drop call the builder out to fix it. If the drain is already vented you'll have to seal that off too. Do it first before other work and you can probably have any leaks fixed by the builder before you're done and avoid a call back.

You could get a camera like Grumpy suggested but they are expensive and it would take you a long time to search a pipe for a nail hole.

Kevin


----------



## Murphy (Mar 28, 2006)

*Jpv where are you from*

We do some third floors over hear on the south side of richmond. 
Murph


----------



## JPV123 (Sep 14, 2005)

I'm in Chesterfield. I do most of my work on the South Side and on the West End.


----------



## Murphy (Mar 28, 2006)

*Hey Ive heard of you*

I think we live in the same neighborhood. We should get together. Murph


----------



## JPV123 (Sep 14, 2005)

How did you hear of me? PM or email me. We should meet. MAybe we can help each other out. -Joe


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

*opportunity is knocking!*

This is where you add value to what you do. How many contractors who are finishing 3rd floors know to check for this or even care since it would not be "their problem"?

Step 1- Explain to the homeowner that all piping inside walls to which new plumbing (dwv only) will be connected MUST be internally inspected to insure that no such misfortune has befallen their previously installed plumbing(if you have pictures of other properties that had these types of leaks, whip them out now). Explain that it is the only way of confirming the integrity of the piping so that their 2nd and 1st floors don't end up being flooded with SEWER WATER and costing them a great big hassle trying to get the responsible party to make it right, if they even can get them to make it right at all. Point out that any RESPONSIBLE and COMPETENT contractor would do this prior to connecting new plumbing. Do not run down your competition for not doing it! Simply present it by way of explanation that it must be done in order to insure the protection and safety of their home and family (you don't have to run anyone down, they will know whether or not any other contractors they have or will speak to have given this one moments consideration or not).

Step 2- Call your plumbing sub (if he doesn't have a sewer camera find one that does, at least for this job), better yet call him with the scenario beforehand and find out what he will charge to inspect each stack (if there are more than one). Multiply his # (typically around $150 - $300) by whatever your mark up is and BAM, you just found another way to seperate yourself from the pack by: showing your potential client your superior knowledge and professionalism (helps you get the work), relieving the fear you created by enlightening the HO to the very real possibillity that their plumbing may have been compromised (providing peace of mind helps you get the work) and oh yeah, you also put another $100.00 (or however much it is) on the company's sheet and all you had to do was explain the necessity for it to the HO and call the plumber to tell him to come do it!

Step 3- If there is damage to the piping, add your markup to all the subs involved, plumber, drywall, paint, etc. and present it to the homeowner. The repairs will have to be made before the work can procede anyway. Do not suggest the HO contact the builder or insurance or anybody else until the repairs are made! The builder was going to pay someone to make the repairs anyway or if not the HO will end up paying for it themselves anyway. Either way you are the one who knew to check for this (saving your client from a potential nightmare), you are the one who should be paid to repair it! We all know what will happen if either the builder or insurance gets involved!

last note- As a plumber I would say that of the 4 ways to inspect piping for puncture leaks (air pressure, smoke, water, or visual via sewer camera) in previously installed piping enclosed inside of walls, the best way is visually with a sewer camera (make sure there is a locator as well and that the video is recorded). Any screw or nail will be easily seen by both you and your clients and a picture is worth a thousand words! DO NOT cut any pipe to gain access for a pressure test! You are only making more work for yourself (and if you are not a certified plumber you have absolutely no business cutting any plumbing pipe of any kind anyway!) because now you must also seal every opening upstream of the cut. Also you may not get as accurate of results as you might think (I have found water leaks in houses where nail punctured copper water piping did not reveal itself for over a year). But let's assume you do the air pressure test and it shows that there is a leak. OK, where is it? Maybe you can get pretty close just by listening for it, maybe not (how many times will you have to pump up the system and then run listen until you find it?). With a camera and locator all the guess work is removed. You will know exactly where every problem area is located and it will take less than 1/2 the time of any other method (and no materials except for the video tape).

Just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Do not pressure test cell-core PVC. It is not intended to ever have pressure on it and if it explodes in the wall you'll have a damned hard time explaining that to your client.

The most effective way to find these problems is to camera the line. Short of that, do a water test, 10' at a time. 

One other thing. Don't assume a damned thing about how that waste/vent stack is supported. If you cut it to gain access to it for testing or repair and the stack falls... Have fun explaining why you didn't hire a plumber to do that work.

One last thing. Most stacks are run straight up in stud bays or chases. If you know the suspected route, a visual inspection of the outer sides of the wall it runs in should tell you if anything might have pierced it. I wouldn't waste time and money on cameraing the line if there are no fasteners in that wall that weren't put in there when it was built.


----------



## lxdollarsxl (Apr 13, 2006)

JPV123 said:


> Hey Guys, I finish a lot of 3rd floors on houses that are 2-5 years old. The builder usually will rough in plumbing for a bathroom. Anyway I am getting a lot of calls 2-3 weeks after we finish with the customer telling me that a wall on the second floor or first floor (usually inside a closet) is wet and has mildew/mold on it. I go back and sure enough when the builders closet shelving sub or kitchen cabent sub drilled into the wall they made a hole in the PVC drain pipe. I've seen as many as 10 penetrations on one pipe. The builders have always fixed them for the customers for free. Is there a way for me to find and trace the pipe all the way down to the basement/crawl space? Like a stud finder finds studs. This way I can avoid having the homeowner find out the hard way.


Surely the quickest way to fix the problem is to mark on the walls where the pipes are running and point that out to cabnet/shelving subs making sure they know where it is marked then they wont puncture it in the first place - prevention is better than a cure.:whistling


----------



## JPV123 (Sep 14, 2005)

lxdollarsxl - If I was the original builder it would of been marked. There's no way of telling what previous subs did especially when they did the work for a different builder.

smellslike$tome & Double-A- I agree & I like your ideas.


----------



## lxdollarsxl (Apr 13, 2006)

ah i get it now i was under the impression you had drywalled etc etc, i wasnt being critical:no:


----------



## theworx (Dec 20, 2005)

JPV we use a company that has a hand held x-ray unit which can detect water and drain lines and electrical in walls and floors etc... A neat device and an invaluable service to use when you have to blindly start cutting into anything (you can be confident that you won't hit anything you shouldn't). But, they are very expensive. A one hour visit costs about $350.00 and we only use them when we "have" too...


----------

