# PENNY PINCHERS and BARTERERS.



## luthor (May 6, 2009)

Tell us your story about the latest trend by customers who penny pinch and barter down the poor carpenters profit margin.
Althou its always been usual by the customer to do a deal with the carpenter or builder and get a competitive rate for estimates,we have never had so many expect our rates to go backwards instead of keeping up with even the basic inflation rate in the UK.
In the UK we are now inundated with cheap overseas ethnic Balkan,African,Asian labour,who undercut our skilled tradesmen,not only are they cheap but most are crap.
Many customers are so nieve into believing that they will get great quality work at a lower cost,they go ahead and employ this cheap overseas labour,then regret it because they got inferior work.
Also it seems that many of our customers are of certain ethnic groups who find it natural to barter you down and get the job done for next to nothing,and even after they accept your estimate they request other jobs to be slipped in at no extra cost to themselves.cheeky sods.
Its got so bad now that even the British customers are getting in on the act and behaving just like them.
Can you imagine if I said to the mortgage company,"I only want to pay you this amount",they would have no hesitation in telling you where to go.

At the end of the week I have to pay my lads wages who have families,by luck this time next year we will still be here offering competitive good quality work,so customers DONT BARTER too much.
:clap:


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## rotarex (Mar 31, 2008)

they are gonna block me for this one but Pakies are the worst when i open the door to their home i just walk back out, and im W.indian, if a white guy goes they wont barter him as much


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## Darwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Dude, stand strong with your pricing!

Qualify the potential client before you _ever_ step on their front porch!

Let them know upfront what is _negotiable_ (quality of materials), and what is _not negotiable_ (labor).

If you can't control your emotions and you buckle to their whims, you are in for a rude awakening!

Remember, you can always walk away. Next client won't be so bad. :thumbsup:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

WHen they start bartering with you just ask them which portion of the project they are willing to leave out to get the price where they can afford it.

Stand your ground. If you loose your profit you might as well flip burgers. Why would you take all the risk of being in business for yourself if you are only working for a wage? I have walked away from jobs like that and the clients look mystified. They ask wouldn't you rather make some money instead of of none? My standard answer to them is I can lose that kind of money sitting at home watching TV. Nit the kind of clients I want anyway. If you give them cheap prices they are going to tell all their friends and then you will have a bunch of people wanting your quality services on the cheap. The the downward spiral will begin.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

My prices only sound high 'til the hack's work falls apart . . .


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## D.Foster (Sep 13, 2008)

rotarex said:


> they are gonna block me for this one but Pakies are the worst when i open the door to their home i just walk back out, and im W.indian, if a white guy goes they wont barter him as much


Gave a price to a pakistan Dr. once to hang crown in a dining room. Two hours work tops. Told em 200.00 labor the crown was there already. The next day i come to do it and there is another pile of crown. I ask his wife what that was and she said "oh could you just put that up in the bath room too". I said "sure, for more money". She was appalled and said her husband should have been a carpenter!! And wanted to "work something out". And that they have alot more work for me to do down the road. Nahh, give me my money.:no:


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## clinkard (Feb 23, 2009)

This is the story of my life lately. 
Quoted 600 to install some mahogany veneer plywood under a bar in a cupboard, (half of this is material) with an access door... then could you price it without the access door? ok 525. what about price it with oak veneer instead of mahogany and no access door.. ok 415+gst... what about cash and no gst and a discount? I finally said enough is enough on this one. I am seeing signs of recovery in Toronto and calls are starting to come in.

Bartering does not work. Tried to barter my services with an accountant... when he tried to negotiate my rate (subtract taxes etc) I finally said no thanks.


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## luthor (May 6, 2009)

rotarex said:


> they are gonna block me for this one but Pakies are the worst when i open the door to their home i just walk back out, and im W.indian, if a white guy goes they wont barter him as much


I priced a job yesterday and the customer was a Nigerian.I walked into his house and it had the latest of everything 50in Sony TV,Lap tops everywhere,nice contempory furniture but the guy was a nightmare to deal with,I priced for one phase then he added the add ons,to be given free by me.
I gave him a competitive price and he smiled that smarmy type of smile and says,"I am not a rich person only a poor person,you be my friend",yeah right and kept to my price.
When I asked what he did for a living it turns out he is a Doctor in the local NHS Hospital,nice for some and I realised I may be working to get my own Income Taxes back.

If an Asian calls we now add on 25%,the same goes for Italians and people working for the Goverment and local council.If they dont like it they can always pay a Balkan whose idea of erecting scaffolding uses branches and string and makes partitioning out of pallets,hey thats not a bad idea.
:jester:


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

If you cut your price without cutting the scope, there is no "real price". Then, the price becomes a contest, one in which you will lose. 

For many people this is their way to "success". They brag to their friends about how much they cut the price and about not having to make that final payment because you failed to make that 17th punch list trip out to their house. They will abuse you throughout the process, you will walk away without your money, in exasperation. 

Better to walk away before the job starts.


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

thom said:


> If you cut your price without cutting the scope, there is no "real price". Then, the price becomes a contest, one in which you will lose.
> 
> For many people this is their way to "success". They brag to their friends about how much they cut the price and about not having to make that final payment because you failed to make that 17th punch list trip out to their house. They will abuse you throughout the process, you will walk away without your money, in exasperation.
> 
> Better to walk away before the job starts.


 watched a guy i work for get taken to the cleaners with someone like this. she had maids that came once or twice a week and a full time live in nanny and she was complaining about tough times.


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## dogris (Aug 9, 2007)

My penny pinching bartender makes me pay for every drink!


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## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

Sure it would be nice not to have to lower prices during times like this, but that isn't the market we work in. There are two kinds of jobs, work for "the man" or work for yourself. We all chose the latter. Supply and demand dictates wages and employment in both markets. So there are four options during a big recession. Market dynamics dictate that these are the *only* four options.


Get laid off
Take a pay cut
Company goes out of business
Competitors go out of business
We all chose to be immune from #1 by becoming self-employed. Obviously #3 is not the preferred option. #4 is out of our control. So we are left with #2 as it is the only reasonable option that is well within our control. Those who choose to work for "the man" don't have the luxury of making the choice. They are just told which of the four it will be. During a recession, if I say that I will not be laid off, my company will stay in business, and I will maintain my profits and wages, then what I am indirectly saying is that my competitors should go out of business to reduce the supply in the market. But my competitors aren't going to let me force them out of business, they will simply choose option #2. By default then I'm forced into either #2 or #3. Obviously #3 is still not an option, so market dynamics dictate that #2 is the only reasonable option. 

IMO, it is a luxury for me to be able to reduce my pay as I see fit so as to maintain a reasonable income. Count your blessings that you work in this kind of market. My father's employer just laid off 25% (1300 people), and my brother's employer laid off 20% of hourly and made salaried employees work one month without pay. Why should contractors be so special that we are completely immune to a recession?


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## cdkyle (Jul 12, 2009)

I drink coffee in the mornings occassionly at a local plumbers shop. His granddad started the business back in the 40's. He said just a couple days ago one of his granddad's sayings, "I might go hungry. But, I'm not gonna go hungry and Tired." 

I think this fits pretty well here.


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## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

cdkyle said:


> I drink coffee in the mornings occassionly at a local plumbers shop. His granddad started the business back in the 40's. He said just a couple days ago one of his granddad's sayings, "I might go hungry. But, I'm not gonna go hungry and Tired."
> 
> I think this fits pretty well here.


My grandpa says something a bit different.

"A little hard work never killed anyone."
"There's always work for the hard worker."
"You wanna make more money, work harder and smarter."

Guess it just shows how different people look at things.


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## jchomes (Mar 3, 2010)

every where you go someone wonts something for nothing here in up state new york cant work for free right ? well i guess ill sit home or go ice fishing hard times for everyone have to see what spring brings


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## CStanford (Feb 5, 2010)

luthor said:


> Tell us your story about the latest trend by customers who penny pinch and barter down the poor carpenters profit margin.
> Althou its always been usual by the customer to do a deal with the carpenter or builder and get a competitive rate for estimates,we have never had so many expect our rates to go backwards instead of keeping up with even the basic inflation rate in the UK.
> In the UK we are now inundated with cheap overseas ethnic Balkan,African,Asian labour,who undercut our skilled tradesmen,not only are they cheap but most are crap.
> Many customers are so nieve into believing that they will get great quality work at a lower cost,they go ahead and employ this cheap overseas labour,then regret it because they got inferior work.
> ...


Contractors who spend every dime they make during the good times ought to go ahead and put a bankruptcy attorney's contact information in their Rolodex. They'll need it during the next, inevitable, downturn.

I've seen more than one guy whose 'work ethic' put him into bankruptcy. It's perfectly possible to nail your way to the poor house with nothing much left than your righteous indignation intact.


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## Fence (Mar 5, 2010)

Had a guy call and said he wanted x number of feet of fence in a standard style listed on my site. 

He didn't sound to serious so I gave him a price over the phone. Price was in thousands. Told me another comapany quoted him exactly $50 less and told me to match it. I said that was my best price. Conversation ended, I didnt get the job haha.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Yesterday I started out at an architects house doing touch up for a gc I work for on occasion. The architect hasn't worked in fourteen months. I told her I couldn't keep up with the work; I;m going seven days a week. She said, "If you ever need help painting let me know. I worked for College Pro once; I've got that on my resume."

Second half of the day I was bidding a commercial retail space remodel, in the most expensive part of town, for a large management company. The company agent asked me to give them a really good price because the tenant has had a really rough year and is hurting. Met the woman, obvious from dress and jewelry, she is not 'hurting'. She may be hurting if by hurting they meant earning less than 100k a year. They wanted the project start immediately and be done as soon as possible.


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

Had a customer proposal yesterday for a $25,000 garage package. Concrete to painting. At the close, the customer declared that he couldn't pay for it this year... no job coming out of this one...

During the interview, all he could talk about was his new truck and travel trailer combination that set him back $75,000. (paid cash)... tell me about how times are tough.


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