# Roughing tips for ICF construction



## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

pvc glue eats it too


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## tdavis (Feb 1, 2008)

*Spray foam?*

We usually set our boxes in a cut out and use the low expanding great stuff spray foam to set the box in. it bonds to both the box and the foam and creates a relatively solid feeling box. you can level it with toothpicks, shims, whatever before you spray the foam. let it expand, cut it off later that day or the next, no big deal. the battery powered Ryobi electric chainsaw is our favorite for running the channels for the outlet wires. just run along the joints of the ICF's to avoid the "studs". I usually run the tip of the blade on the concrete so I get in past the nail plate point. inspectors have never asked for staples because with a skinny chainsaw blade even 14/2 fits tight in the channel. it's messy but pretty easy. ICF construction is great, feel free to listen to my neigbors ***** about their utility bills while mine stay low (and all we did was the non-vented crawlspace)

Now I'll open another can of worms. Since so many people here are complaining about the wiring of SIPS, Log walls and ICF's, what form of Wireless switching would work best for you? If you didn't need to run ANY Romex at all to any switch locations, what would work best from an installers point of view? would you want to see a receiver in each lighting zone? a contactor panel located in an attic or a crawlspace? and I'm not talking about X10 or something you need to program with a computer, just simple switches with remote receiver capability. Running Romex to the lights has been, imho, the easy part of SIP or ICF, Log wiring. (sip ceilings are a pain regardless) 

we are working on several new designs right now and your opinions may create the latest controls. our newest trial is a remote receiver that receives the signal to control 8 lighting zones, this is run via cat 5 back to a contactor panel that is fed by one 15 or 20A dedicated breaker. the lights are then fed from the contactor panel out to the light zones. Is Dimming ability important? We are trying hard to make it easier for the sparky's on ICF's and log walls and this kind of feedback is really important. 

should I start a new thread for this?

Thanks!

Troy

I left my signature off this one because I am really not trying to advertise here...


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

Are you grounding your icf structure? , Less electronics is proably better 1 smack of lightning and your gonna be replaceing it.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

cmec said:


> Are you grounding your icf structure? , Less electronics is proably better 1 smack of lightning and your gonna be replaceing it.


What are you talking about, exactly? I think I know what you're talking about, but it might not have translated well in your written sentence. A poured concrete home is already "grounded" to the earth. It's a pretty good low resistance path for lightning to the earth proper already without doing anything additional. Matter of fact, concrete in contact with the earth is such a good grounding electrode, we now are required to put some copper wire in it and use it as a grounding electrode for services in new homes. This business of replacing electronics is what I don't understand about what you said. The substantially concrete home will divert much more of a lightning strike to the soil and less to the electronics versus the traditional wood framed home with only a water pipe or driven rod electrode. The typical wood framed home, with its typical grounding electrode arrangement can't divery nearly as much of a lightning strike to the earth as a concrete home, and you'll necessarily have more damage in the wood framed home.


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

Maybee its grounded,but how well is it in soil or rock what kinda mineral content/ and what about equal potential, what iff the footer was drilled and pins drove in instead of monolythic or no pinns at all, how about if the mesh in the floor is on stryrofoam and not bonded to the rest of the steel? This is a new thing anyone done a study on it yet ? and dont forget when lightning strikes steel or copper in concrete it expands and cracks the concrete theyre finding this out in a study on ufer grounds. They suggest putting the copper under the footer and putting gem on it it holds moisture and takes the expanson. Like an engineer told me this isnt a fool proof science, I see all the post about lo voltage switching and obscelete equiment from the 50 s all I am trying to say is keep it simple and minamal so it isnt an servicework nightmare later.Right now I have a verry expensive lutron system I put in 15 yrs ago that wont work and is obsolete.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Bkessler said:


> They suck and if someone has a tip I want to hear it also, the best tip I can give is get paid t&m.


We changed electricians over this issue. A closed mind cost my former sparks a lot of work. ICF's are here to stay, they are one of the best systems to come along, and everyone has to adapt. 

The electrician who now does our work had never seen one before, called the tech rep, and then used a 1/2 in drill bit in a corded drill, and went after it. By laying the bit at a 45 degree angle, it was a quick way to cut the chases, all vertical. Used a hot knife to cut the boxes, and used metal boxes with a single tapcop screw...plaster ring to depth. 

Like Chris pointed out, a few hundred feet more of romex is not a big deal, and the energy savings are forever.


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## wiremeup (Mar 5, 2008)

I have been wiring ICF houses for some time now. They are really not that much harder to do than conventional framing though they are definitely more time consuming. The first two houses I wired, I used the 4x4 boxes and plaster rings and used a hot knife to cut all the chases and boxes. Now, I use the Carlon 18 cubic inch plastic boxes with the flange off one side of the box. They are $1.12 at Lowe's. No plaster rings, ground screws, connectors, etc. You can also get 3 and 4 gang boxes that are the same depth and work great. Get the 3/4" or 1" lathe screws, also from Lowes, and screw through the flange into the vertical strips embedded in the ICF. Though not really needed, I put one 1 1/4" tapcon through the back of the box just to hold it a little better. Cut the box hole in the ICF, but wait to install the box until you have run the wire. As stated before, I started cutting channels with the hot knife. A chain saw is much faster and just as good. I use the Makita 12v cordless chainsaw. Ebay for $200. Or, get the Black and Decker 18v from Lowe's for $120. Remove the guard from the end of the bar. Don't worry about hitting the concrete with the chain. Sure it dulls the heck out of it, but I have used mine on quite a few houses and while it won't hardly scratch a 2x4, it still does just fine on styrofoam. Definitely don't use the self oiling feature. On Polysteel brand, you can cut horizontally anywhere the blocks come together. Nudura brand requires finding where the holes in the plastic webbing are, chalk lining a 3/4" wide channel, and cutting each one out with a sawzall or jigsaw. Cut horizontally around the room above your receptacle height, then straight down to the rec. Where the 90 corner in the grooves are, cut a 45 right at the corner, it helps to get the wire around the bend. To set the wires back in the icf, cut a 2x4 into a wedge about 8" long and 1 1/2" wide at one end, 1/4" at the other. Then cut back from the 1/4" end so that about 2 1/2" of the wedge are a straight 1/4". Use this to push the romex back against the concrete. In my locale, Shenandoah Valley, VA, we are not required to run MC or conduit in residential buildings. Depending on the wire, you can usually run 2 or three wires in one channel as long as they are pushed all the way back. Here, we don't have to spray foam the channels, but we do firestop the holes in the top plates where the wires go through. I still don't think I would build a ICF house for myself, but I will wire them all day long. Although, I still won't give a contract price, t&m all the way. I have read about people installing conduit in the walls before the concrete is poured. All I can say is, unless that is required by your locale, you are a glutton for punishment. On the 8000 sq. ft. houses I have been doing, the amount of time that would have required would have been much more than I could possibly have given them. You lose nothing in R value by cutting the channels, and you really gain nothing by having the conduit in the ICF.


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## Topnotchconcret (Apr 14, 2008)

I have used Electric Chainsaw with a roller blade wheels and Router and Hot Knife. As far as using gas it does dissolve the foam but an ounce of gas will destroy the EPS foam about 5 feet down in a cone effect. The router works but you will look like a smurf afterwards and makes a big mess. The hot knife is basically a heated wire that cuts the foam out usually find one in a crafting store, problem is when you are melting the plastic foam it can make you high and gives you a hell of a headache. It also has problems when you run into solid plastic ties. The best method we have found is to use a Ryobi cordless chainsaw with the roller blade wheel set to 2", no cords to carry around. Use deep electrical masonry boxes and tapcon them to the concrete, the foam behind the box will compress. Also generally as an ICF contractor, I ask the general or home owner to go into the house and mark in their own color what penetrations they want on the walls.


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## andrewN (Jul 8, 2011)

*Inexo ICF Box*

There is a new electrical box that is designed specifically for ICF construction called the INEXO ICF Box. It has mounting teeth that dig directly into the ICF foam. Quick and easy! It can be used with Romex or Armored Cable. 

I included a link for it below. You can get it through Wind-Lock or regular electrical distributor.

http://www.ipexamerica.com/Content/...roductId=109&SubMarketId=17&MarketSegmentId=5


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> There is a new electrical box that is designed specifically for ICF construction called the INEXO ICF Box. It has mounting teeth that dig directly into the ICF foam. Quick and easy! It can be used with Romex or Armored Cable.
> 
> I included a link for it below. You can get it through Wind-Lock or regular electrical distributor.
> 
> http://www.ipexamerica.com/Content/P...ketSegmentId=5


That's slick, I bought a bunch with a wing on the side that screws into the plastic strip, a lot faster than drilling and screwing in a tapcon. For LV I hot knife a hole and screw a plaster ring or box extender to the plastic strip. 

ICF ain't that bad to work with, I only have half a dozen under my belt. I saw a guy use a 1/2" belt sander and I was fairly impressed, little more precision than a chainsaw. I hot knife mine or take a drill with a 1/2 inch bit on high and drag it along the wall...but what a mess!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

I would hope that in the past three years, the house been completed. :laughing:


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I would hope that in the past three years, the house been completed. :laughing:


Ahhh, its T&M!! :thumbsup:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

woodchuck2 said:


> Ahhh, its T&M!! :thumbsup:


It's guys like you that make ICF more expensive...haha


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