# Paint or stick with solid color stain?



## Mr. Mike

> make sure you strip the old stain off first, otherwise you'd end up with a mess in a year or so or sooner.


That would be a waste of time stripping all the stain off!


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## THINKPAINTING

MakDeco said:


> We are getting a solid 7 to 8 yrs on rough cedar lap here in the Chicago area with Solid Stain... I think it looks better for the rough cedar then a thick paint on it...


You are absolutely correct. We use a ton of solid stain here in New England on both smooth side out and rough side out cedar siding.

We used to always prime with Cabots Problem Solver or Californa Trobloe Shooter oil.........then put 2 coats soild stain.

I have used 2 coats of SW woodscapes with great results.........

On repaints it depends on the substrate but that is where experince comes in. Home below was primed with oil and topcoated with Cabots solid stain........... We sampled out 10 different yellows before she picked one...........:w00t:


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## 4thGeneration

Great looking work again. Back when I was a helper we used to apply a stain if I remember correctly from BM. It was pretty good stuff. The obvious reason our exteriors out performed the rest was:
1-Prep
2-We did not add 1 gal of water per 5 to stretch it out 
3-We applied long oil primer and let it dry in.
4-We applied 2 coats over the top of the 100% acrylic.

If anyone has ever used the BM exterior 100% acrylic you would know how much acrylic they put in their stuff. Even latex needs to be run through spirits after you get the paint off.

I like SW and BM, but both have certain products that last longer. I am not a fan of the deck scapes though. If I was to do a house stain today it would be Armstrong-Clark because of its non drying conditioning oils. This replenishes the original oils that have been stripped over time.


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## deach

First time I used the bennie stuff I didn't know about the "quick spirits dip" to get the brushes clean. I can tell you that's something I think will hold up. I've done my last two cedar houses with it and I love the stuff. I can't imagine messing up a rough cedar house with "Paint"....Solid cover stain is the way to go IMHO.


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## Midwest D & P

With the solid stain it is self priming and shows wood texture better. stick with the stain.


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## wogamax

Bumping because I'm in the same boat. 3 estimates, all paint. House has solid stain in New England and I just found the receipt from....1999. No peeling, just mold flare-ups that became a twice a year issue in the last two years. While the stain is also looking bleached out a bit, I would hate to stare at cracking / peeling paint in 5-6 years, or less. So, my questions:

1 - We're changing the color of the house and dont' know if paint is better for that reason?

2 - Is it common to stain clapboard and paint trim, or is trim more commonly stained where stain is used elsewhere?

Thanks a bunch


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## world llc

paint over solid color stain will cause failure... see it all the time
paint over cedar will fail and or rot... see it all the time
too many coats re-stained and re stained cedar will start to chip and peal some places, but is the better of the choices unfortunately


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## monkey

world llc said:


> paint over solid color stain will cause failure... see it all the time
> paint over cedar will fail and or rot... see it all the time
> too many coats re-stained and re stained cedar will start to chip and peal some places, but is the better of the choices unfortunately


Maybe I'm not reading this correctly but ....
"paint over ceder will fail and or rot.." < I have stripped and painted cedar shingles and gotten 12+ years. 
1 coat oil primer, 2 coats moorglo soft gloss latex.
If you are referring to rough textured siding I would always go with stain


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## shesbros

*I can't take it anymore.*

I have been painting in New England for 15 years. I have this conversation at minimum 3 times a week. I have talked to numerous paint reps and chemists to get to the bottom of this. For all you stain guys I have news. Latex stain today is the equivalent of latex paint 6 years ago. There is even one paint manufacturer that has told me their new 100% acrylic latex stain is THE EXACT SAME PRODUCT as their cutting edge (6 years ago) 100% acrylic latex paint. Check the MSDS sheets. Difference between latex paint and latex stain is the amount of vehicle in the can i.e. water and glycol. ANY latex product forms a film therefore it acts more like a paint than a stain. Most paint manufacturers will admit that calling the new latex stains "stains" is in fact very misleading. 2 coats of stain has the same approximate mil thickness of 1 coat of middle of the road paint. Any of you guys out there who are thinking that the latex products are magically penetrating the surface while they dry in 5-10 minutes are dreaming. The stains you think are getting are a thing of the past. We try to do all our rough side out exteriors the same way, especially if it is old linseed oil stain. Power wash as much a possible to remove all the dirt, mildew, algae and chalking. Let it dry about a week to be technical the moisture should be below 18% but we like it around 12. Scrape and sand as needed and prime with 1 coat of a long oil either the Cabot or the California. Let it dry even in the peak of summer overnight or rather 2 days. Caulk and fill etc then 1 or 2 depending on the situation of 100% acrylic flat latex paint plus the M-1 Mildewcide. Our customers usually get about 10 years out of this then they only need a maintenance coat every 8 or so. Bad news fellas if your paint peels and your stain doesn't......you are doing it wrong. I have seen it all fail oil and latex both paint and stain. More often than not it is an application problem.

So ends the lesson....


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## monkey

shesbros said:


> I have been painting in New England for 15 years. I have this conversation at minimum 3 times a week. I have talked to numerous paint reps and chemists to get to the bottom of this. For all you stain guys I have news. Latex stain today is the equivalent of latex paint 6 years ago. There is even one paint manufacturer that has told me their new 100% acrylic latex stain is THE EXACT SAME PRODUCT as their cutting edge (6 years ago) 100% acrylic latex paint. Check the MSDS sheets. Difference between latex paint and latex stain is the amount of vehicle in the can i.e. water and glycol. ANY latex product forms a film therefore it acts more like a paint than a stain. Most paint manufacturers will admit that calling the new latex stains "stains" is in fact very misleading. 2 coats of stain has the same approximate mil thickness of 1 coat of middle of the road paint. Any of you guys out there who are thinking that the latex products are magically penetrating the surface while they dry in 5-10 minutes are dreaming. The stains you think are getting are a thing of the past. We try to do all our rough side out exteriors the same way, especially if it is old linseed oil stain. Power wash as much a possible to remove all the dirt, mildew, algae and chalking. Let it dry about a week to be technical the moisture should be below 18% but we like it around 12. Scrape and sand as needed and prime with 1 coat of a long oil either the Cabot or the California. Let it dry even in the peak of summer overnight or rather 2 days. Caulk and fill etc then 1 or 2 depending on the situation of 100% acrylic flat latex paint plus the M-1 Mildewcide. Our customers usually get about 10 years out of this then they only need a maintenance coat every 8 or so. Bad news fellas if your paint peels and your stain doesn't......you are doing it wrong. I have seen it all fail oil and latex both paint and stain. More often than not it is an application problem.
> 
> So ends the lesson....


 
Thanks for the lesson...
I'm glad to see that another contractor will suggest the longevity of a properly applied paint film that you do. 
I have been a painting contractor in New England for 20+ years.
17 self employed.
?????
Why do you specifically state FLAT latex.???????????
I have had exteriors last much longer with Moorglo than I have had with Moorlife(flat).
I would have to write a short novel here to explain what I've found from experience and it seems like everyone is done with this thread but if you pass through again I would like to hear why you use flat. ?
This is not a question of your work just curiousity about the Flat comment


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## monkey

I forgot to mention that to get the longevity that we speak of you need to pay particular attention to the sun. I probably don't need to say that in a painters forum ........
My day is planned around where the sun will be and 2 hours of shade and then full sun will cause the "plastic wrap" syndrome.
That can't be fixed without a full strip.
"Painter" should be held liable for the "damage" they caused.


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## wogamax

Well, I need some convincing if paint/stain are becoming one because the painters started today, they are more than half way around the house and are using Moore Life PAINT, not the stain we settled on. I didn't agree or insist on a primer coat. They primed here and there and its been Moore Life directly on top of the 10 y/o stain.

I just went out and told the foreman. What do I do now? Contractor estimated for paint and we latter verbally agreed to stain, after I came here and went a few other places that said to stick with stain on rough side out stained siding. :sad: The contractor is a decent guy. I'm expecting a call any minute.


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## shesbros

*Flat Paint*

Monkey,
Sorry for the tardy response I was on my honeymoon. WE use flat usually because we have had customers not like the sheen of the low lustre over the rough side out clapboard. Even though they want the protection, they still want to see the texture of the wood and sometimes the Moroeglow can look awkward in the direct sun. Our standard finishes are usually either the Moorelife ore the Cali Freshcoat on the body (plus M-1 Mildewcide) and 95% of hte time Cali 2010 Eggshell on the Trim. When we do the old colonials we usually use the low lustre on the siding and Low lustre or semi on the trim and so on.


Thanks for the reply.


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## monkey

410tip said:


> Two points.
> 1. Solid Color stain is trash. Fades horribly and does not protect wood very well. I can't begin to express how many dried and damaged houses I've had to load up with peel bond, primer, and paint due to solid color stain. The stain fades horribly within 3 years, weathers the wood, and turns the siding into brittle and dry trash. It may be five bucks cheaper a gallon, but keeping siding healthy is worth that extra five bucks a gallon.
> 2. A good paint job over a solid color stain will last at least 10 years. I live in Seattle, alot of moisture, all of my jobs last at least 8 years. Exceptions, but for the most part true. To paint a solid color stain job that will last take these steps:
> 1. Power Wash
> 2.Caulk windows, but joins, cornerboards.
> 3.Scrape/Sand all bare wood
> 4. Prime the complete house w/oil primer
> 5. Apply one heavy coat(Most painters skimp their second coat)a dust coat usually occurs after brushing it in. A good painters first coat will almost always cover with a quick dust.
> 6.Use a top level trim paint
> 
> The painter is right when he wants to paint the house. Your siding will be protected and the paint will last longer. A cheap quick fix alternative would be to stain it again, but a long term investment to protect your siding would be to paint in according to the above instructions.


 How 
]How would this "applicator" know How to instruct a professional painting company? 
He is a History Teacher that paints on his break.
Last I saw He removed that from his "profile"


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## monkey

shesbros said:


> Monkey,
> Sorry for the tardy response I was on my honeymoon. WE use flat usually because we have had customers not like the sheen of the low lustre over the rough side out clapboard. Even though they want the protection, they still want to see the texture of the wood and sometimes the Moroeglow can look awkward in the direct sun. Our standard finishes are usually either the Moorelife ore the Cali Freshcoat on the body (plus M-1 Mildewcide) and 95% of hte time Cali 2010 Eggshell on the Trim. When we do the old colonials we usually use the low lustre on the siding and Low lustre or semi on the trim and so on.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply.


I think the thread changed from the op to the stain?/paint question.
The original poster is back and I Don't really have an answer.
I think the painter will say that the weathered oil stain will act like a primer.....
He might be right.....
Keyword=weathered


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## monkey

wogamax said:


> Well, I need some convincing if paint/stain are becoming one because the painters started today, they are more than half way around the house and are using Moore Life PAINT, not the stain we settled on. I didn't agree or insist on a primer coat. They primed here and there and its been Moore Life directly on top of the 10 y/o stain.
> 
> I just went out and told the foreman. What do I do now? Contractor estimated for paint and we latter verbally agreed to stain, after I came here and went a few other places that said to stick with stain on rough side out stained siding. :sad: The contractor is a decent guy. I'm expecting a call any minute.


 Don't panic yet. I would not do that but I have not seen the house.
I am not very good,fast whatever at putting pictures up on any forum but when you realize that anyone that answers you has already invested some time reading your post .....
Put a picture in.
Moorlife is not an inferior product and may perform fine in that application.
I'll see if there is any interest in this thread tom..


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## monkey

shesbros said:


> I have been painting in New England for 15 years. I have this conversation at minimum 3 times a week. I have talked to numerous paint reps and chemists to get to the bottom of this. For all you stain guys I have news. Latex stain today is the equivalent of latex paint 6 years ago. There is even one paint manufacturer that has told me their new 100% acrylic latex stain is THE EXACT SAME PRODUCT as their cutting edge (6 years ago) 100% acrylic latex paint. Check the MSDS sheets. Difference between latex paint and latex stain is the amount of vehicle in the can i.e. water and glycol. ANY latex product forms a film therefore it acts more like a paint than a stain. Most paint manufacturers will admit that calling the new latex stains "stains" is in fact very misleading. 2 coats of stain has the same approximate mil thickness of 1 coat of middle of the road paint. Any of you guys out there who are thinking that the latex products are magically penetrating the surface while they dry in 5-10 minutes are dreaming. The stains you think are getting are a thing of the past. We try to do all our rough side out exteriors the same way, especially if it is old linseed oil stain. Power wash as much a possible to remove all the dirt, mildew, algae and chalking. Let it dry about a week to be technical the moisture should be below 18% but we like it around 12. Scrape and sand as needed and prime with 1 coat of a long oil either the Cabot or the California. Let it dry even in the peak of summer overnight or rather 2 days. Caulk and fill etc then 1 or 2 depending on the situation of 100% acrylic flat latex paint plus the M-1 Mildewcide. Our customers usually get about 10 years out of this then they only need a maintenance coat every 8 or so. Bad news fellas if your paint peels and your stain doesn't......you are doing it wrong. I have seen it all fail oil and latex both paint and stain. More often than not it is an application problem.
> 
> So ends the lesson....


You should post more!!!!
With that dedication to staying on top of things.....
It's forums like this that make me realize that I am behind the times as far as new products go, and a bit stuck in my ways......
I don't hang around the paint store to talk about new products... I call in my order.......


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## wogamax

monkey said:


> You should post more!!!!
> With that dedication to staying on top of things.....
> It's forums like this that make me realize that I am behind the times as far as new products go, and a bit stuck in my ways......
> I don't hang around the paint store to talk about new products... I call in my order.......


I'll wait until a whole lot more people say paint and stain are so similar before buying into that. Last I heard it was still 20 times as thick, not twice. And which company's reps are saying its just a water and glycol difference? Does it have to be more than water and glycol for the products to be very different?

My contractor called, admitted he was to use stain and wants to make me whole with labor. Last I knew, pretty much all painters in New England see paint as a 6-7 year cycle. Again, i was on 10 with NO peeling. I told him "with 15+yrs left in the house, I can now look forward to painting twice where I may have gotten away with staining once". That's a lot of money I won't get back no matter what we resolve. ~2,000 worth of labor (maybe a new front door) is where I think this is going. But if not for having something done that was against our agreement, the economic impact against me, over time, I feel will be greater. 

I'm not sure a pic would help here. It's a 3,500 sq ft colonial. nothing fancy. 3 estimates averaged ~6500.


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## monkey

wogamax said:


> I'll wait until a whole lot more people say paint and stain are so similar before buying into that. Last I heard it was still 20 times as thick, not twice. And which company's reps are saying its just a water and glycol difference? Does it have to be more than water and glycol for the products to be very different?
> 
> My contractor called, admitted he was to use stain and wants to make me whole with labor. Last I knew, pretty much all painters in New England see paint as a 6-7 year cycle. Again, i was on 10 with NO peeling. I told him "with 15+yrs left in the house, I can now look forward to painting twice where I may have gotten away with staining once". That's a lot of money I won't get back no matter what we resolve. ~2,000 worth of labor (maybe a new front door) is where I think this is going. But if not for having something done that was against our agreement, the economic impact against me, over time, I feel will be greater.
> 
> I'm not sure a pic would help here. It's a 3,500 sq ft colonial. nothing fancy. 3 estimates averaged ~6500.


 I think you are confusing me with someone else'
I don't care what you do..
I think the only reason you were not sent to the DIY forum is that an interesting discussion was started.....


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## wogamax

monkey said:


> I think you are confusing me with someone else'
> I don't care what you do..
> I think the only reason you were not sent to the DIY forum is that an interesting discussion was started.....


Yeah, you're probably right. Should've gone DIY..
Just don't scratch your head too much over the 'Why don't we get paid' threads...


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## monkey

wogamax said:


> Yeah, you're probably right. Should've gone DIY..
> Just don't scratch your head too much over the 'Why don't we get paid' threads...


I Don't know what you mean by the "Don't get paid" comment .......
I just made my 70something post on this site . That is more than I have made on any other sites COMBINED. I do not play internet games.
Perhaps I need a new hobby!!


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## dangoodridge

The difference between flat paint and solid latex stain is minimal, just ask any manufacturer's rep. Paint is a more durable exterior finish but when it fails , it fails in larger pieces requiring more preparation. I don't believe latex stain would stand up to heavy sun in an area such as the Southwest.There is NO surface penetration from solid stain- it is a surface coating just like paint. We use latex stain on rough side claps ( new england) because we would rather repaint more frequently ( 5-7 years) with less prep. Anyone who believes that solid stain does not peel is dreaming!!


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## hdavis

On smooth boards I would (and did) change to paint. On rough cedar, I would stick to stain - it's really the best choice. Having said that, on smooth boards I get much better life (like 2X) out of good paint than stain.


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## Dorman Painting

I see this is three years old but I'll chime in anyway. My neighbor had this same issue until I solved it for him three years ago. Jeff's house had been solid color stained for twenty plus years and the solid color would never hold up for more than four to five years. I advised him to put two heavy coats of SW Super Paint or Resiliency. 

He chose the Resiliency and we put two thick coats on by spraying and backrolling. His house never looked better and this system will give him much more longevity than the solid color stain route.


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## 410tip

monkey said:


> How
> ]How would this "applicator" know How to instruct a professional painting company?
> He is a History Teacher that paints on his break.
> Last I saw He removed that from his "profile"


Monkey,
From the above stated post it looks like maybe you're eating your words. Stand by my post and just drove by a house I painted using the stated method. Painted the house in 2006 and it still looks like a million bucks. I guess this "applicator" and crew of now beer bellied old timers got lucky.


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## Derek1157

I guess it just depends on where a person lives.......I live on the Oregon coast and paint will outlast stain by 5-10 years easy. Solid stain lasts about 5 years tops out here. That's on siding. On decks, you're lucky to get 2 years. Good quality paint gets about 10, but have seen it go longer and still look decent. Also, I use water-based solid stain as primer all the time on wood, like most guys out here and it works great; so don't know why you'd prime over it unless enough of the stain is coming off to warrant doing that. Otherwise I'd spot prime it. Also, out here, when you re-stain every few years, it begins to build up a film similar to a paint anyway. 

But, like I said, that's out here. Evidently it's different in other regions. 12 years for a stain sounds outlandish:huh:


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## Derek1157

Damn it all to hell! I just realized that this is an old post!


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