# GFI receptacle wiring



## Midwestguy954 (Sep 11, 2007)

When replacing a receptacle in an older home that has a two wire system, {no ground} a GFI receptacle is to be used and label it no ground as I read the code. If I'm not correct on this please set me straight. I have another question though that I'm trying to work out in my head. Why is it your not allowed to connect the ground to the neutral in that same box with the new GFI receptacle? Seems like that should work fine. Thanks for reading.


----------



## shesaremonclus (Nov 24, 2008)

why install if it is not going to do its job in the first place. Doing what you said will make it work but I'am not a sparky so I dont know if this is safe.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

There are three wires in modern 120v wiring: Their technical names are the ungrounded, grounded and grounding. You probably know them as 'hot', 'neutral' and 'ground'.

The 'hot' and 'neutral' differ from the 'ground' in that they both are considered 'current-carrying' conductors. Meaning they carry power. The 'ground' only does in a fault situation such as a short.

If you were to tie the 'neutral' and 'ground' together at an outlet in a box, you basically turn the exposed metal parts of whatever you plug in into a current-carrying conductor. You effectively create a potential of 120v to ground.

If, for whatever reason, the 'neutral' of your wiring should become disconnected, everything in your house......... your fridge, computer, TV, everything plugged in that has a ground pin on the end of the cord....... a 'hot' conductor. All that is needed is you, or your wife, or your kids, or your neighbor, to complete the circuit by touching one of those items while grounded (touching a sink with metal piping, standing barefoot on the ground or concrete floor).

And trust me, this will not feel the same as simply creating a circuit by getting between a hot and neutral. In this case, the pain you feel is related to the resistance of your body.

But when you become part of the faulted circuit created by your 'jumper' or 'bootleg ground', the pain you feel is related to the resistance of the entire circuit and the loads that are on it. The resistance of the circuit is far different than that of just your body alone and it will hurt a whole lot worse.


----------



## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

What kind of wire is it? It is fairly common to see where guys in the past coiled the ground around the casing and either tried to clamp it in the box or just left it outside the box where it cannot be seen. I would at least inspect the main panel itself to see if all or that particular circuit is grounded. If so then remove the box from the wall, pull out the ground and re-install the wire using an old work box. That would make your GFCI functional and up to code.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

woodchuck2 said:


> ......... That would make your GFCI functional and up to code.


GFCIs do not need a ground to operate.


----------



## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

480sparky said:


> GFCIs do not need a ground to operate.


 Good catch, thanks for the correction.


----------



## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

480sparky said:


> There are three wires in modern 120v wiring: Their technical names are the ungrounded, grounded and grounding. You probably know them as 'hot', 'neutral' and 'ground'.
> 
> The 'hot' and 'neutral' differ from the 'ground' in that they both are considered 'current-carrying' conductors. Meaning they carry power. The 'ground' only does in a fault situation such as a short.
> 
> ...












I would think an electrician would know this very basic explanation.
I would not call myself an electrician as to not disrespect a real sparkie.
But I know this stuff and much more having worked side by side with an EC on a remodeling crew for six years and it helps me in my role as a GC....

Kinda scary that someone calling them self an electrician would ask this question.....just sayin'


----------



## Midwestguy954 (Sep 11, 2007)

*Thanks for the replies*

I certainly understand why the ground cannot be tied to the neutral now. I should have been able to figure that one out myself. But anyhow Thanks. I rewired the existing GFI recpts. today with 12/2 wground so there is a ground wire now.


----------



## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Midwestguy954 said:


> I certainly understand why the ground cannot be tied to the neutral now. I should have been able to figure that one out myself. But anyhow Thanks. I rewired the existing GFI recpts. today with 12/2 *wground so there is a ground wire now*.


:blink:


----------



## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Midwestguy954 said:


> I certainly understand why the ground cannot be tied to the neutral now. I should have been able to figure that one out myself. But anyhow Thanks. I rewired the existing GFI recpts. today with 12/2 wground so there is a ground wire now.


I must echo Jumbojack.

This is pretty basic stuff for an electrician. I'm guessing you are not licensed.


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Thank God for you real sparkies.:thumbsup:

480 u da man!!:notworthy:notworthy

Far too many guys out there that think twisting on a wire nut makes them an electrician:whistling


----------



## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

griz said:


> Far too many guys out there that think twisting on a wire nut makes them an electrician:whistling


You have to twist those things?:clap:

UH OH


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

griz said:


> ...........Far too many guys out there that think twisting on a wire nut makes them an electrician:whistling





rselectric1 said:


> You have to twist those things?:clap:..........


 
Twist _what _things?


----------



## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I was an "electrician" 5 years ago and I didn't know much about 3-phase wiring. Just sayin...


----------



## TileLady (Apr 8, 2008)

*Scary*

It's really scary that the guy would call himself an electrician. I'm not an electrician but I have educated myself on electricity and even I knew the answer to his question.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> I was an "electrician" 5 years ago and I didn't know much about 3-phase wiring. Just sayin...


You mean laborer working for an electrical company? I learned about 3 phase a fair amount....in school.....studying electrical...


----------



## Static Design (Nov 30, 2008)

We are all here to learn............ If we didn't ask questions how will we ever learn anything?
I mean woodchuck thought GFCI had to have the grounding conductor fastened to work correctly, not picking on you: just sayin.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Static Design said:


> We are all here to learn............ If we didn't ask questions how will we ever learn anything?


Is that a rhetorical question?:laughing:


----------



## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Static Design said:


> We are all here to learn............ If we didn't ask questions how will we ever learn anything?
> I mean woodchuck thought GFCI had to have the grounding conductor fastened to work correctly, not picking on you: just sayin.


.......
Um yeah Hi.My name is Jack and I'm a surgeon.I was wondering if any of ya'll could help me with a question....
I have a patient that need's his appendix removed.Any hoo I can't remember what side it is on..I am pretty sure but I wanted to double check.....

Thank's in advance.

Dr.JumboJack


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> We are all here to learn............ If we didn't ask questions how will we ever learn anything?


They teach you in school.:whistling



> I mean woodchuck thought GFCI had to have the grounding conductor fastened to work correctly, not picking on you: just sayin.


At first I thought that could be a US code thing because around here GFI are used in situations where ground wires aren't present and running a new wire is troublesome.


----------



## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

I read this post yesterday, and all day today I kept thinking about it, I was not 100% sure the op had his trade listed as electrician. So I had to check, and I see he is listed as such. That is just plain scary, you could have killed someone, possibly a child or anyone. 
I gather this is a place for questions, but to say you had thought about wiring the ground to the neutral, says to me that you should pack you tools and go back to school. 
Or stop calling yourself a electrician. You CERTAINLY are not.


----------



## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Anderson said:


> I read this post yesterday, and all day today I kept thinking about it, I was not 100% sure the op had his trade listed as electrician. So I had to check, and I see he is listed as such. That is just plain scary, you could have killed someone, possibly a child or anyone.
> I gather this is a place for questions, but to say you had thought about wiring the ground to the neutral, says to me that you should pack you tools and go back to school.
> Or stop calling yourself a electrician. You CERTAINLY are not.


Yeah we kinda covered that starting in post #7.....:thumbsup:


----------



## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

Well I just got home, had to add my 2 cents.
I read the whole thread, very good example of how the GFCI works too :thumbup:
Oh sorry I think that was said already too :sad:


----------



## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

I went back and looked at the TR receptacle in my kitchen. A 3 prong plug works much better in it. With persistance I finally got a 2 prong to go in, but I almost had to wiggle it side to side to get it to go in. Just junk I guess. I think it is a cooper.


----------



## DetailHandyman (Jul 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> GFCIs do not need a ground to operate.


:thumbsup:

But, the inspectors in a nearby city will consistently fail a rental inspection because the GFI is not grounded (by indication of their plug-in tester!). 

[This city is mostly row homes of a pre-1950 vintage with 2 wire or even K&T wiring.]

Apparently, the package insert is not sufficient evidence that an ungrounded GFI still functions to prevent ground faults.

Any code references that would enlighten these inspectors?


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

DetailHandyman said:


> Any code references that would enlighten these inspectors?


2008 NEC 110.3(B).
2008 NEC 406.3(D).
2009 UL White Book QCYU.

Here is a link to a Pass & Seymour resi-grade GFCI. Look at item #8. No where does it say to use a plug-in tester.


----------



## DetailHandyman (Jul 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> 2008 NEC 110.3(B).
> 2008 NEC 406.3(D).
> 2009 UL White Book QCYU.



Thanks





480sparky said:


> Here is a link to a Pass & Seymour resi-grade GFCI. Look at item #8. No where does it say to use a plug-in tester.


I guess it's too hard for the inspector to press the 'test' and 'reset' buttons. :no:


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

DetailHandyman said:


> ...........I guess it's too hard for the inspector to press the 'test' and 'reset' buttons. :no:


 
I don't see how. They already need to do that to check it (them) anyway. They're just pushing a different Test button.

The only advantage a plug-in tester has is it makes it easier to make sure 'down-stream' receptacles are protected by the GFCI. But still, the test button on the GFCI itself is the only recognized method of testing the unit. To properly test down-stream receptacles, the inspector should check them for power, push the Test button on the GFCI, check the receptacles for lack of power, then reset the GFCI and check the receptacles for power.


----------



## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

I like the hand of god (from the Sistine Chapel) photoshopped in as the finger touching the reset/test buttons. Nice touch sparky.


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

480sparky said:


> There are three wires in modern 120v wiring: Their technical names are the ungrounded, grounded and grounding. You probably know them as 'hot', 'neutral' and 'ground'.
> 
> The 'hot' and 'neutral' differ from the 'ground' in that they both are considered 'current-carrying' conductors. Meaning they carry power. The 'ground' only does in a fault situation such as a short.
> 
> ...


480Sparky.... 

I apologise as I'm a GC and not a pro electrician or EC and I'm confused as to the above.

I am not advocating in any manner that we employ hot grounds or that we strip the insulation off our neutrals... they have different functions.

But if the neutral and the ground were tied together at a box and the neutral was broken and someone grabbed the fridge and grabbed the copper water pipe (or any ground) and there was other draw on the circuit.... would not the potential accross that person be 0 (adjusted plus/minus for any varience in the resistivity of the two ground paths) ???

And generally would not the bare ground wire have less resistance to ground than the person who was holding the fridge and the copper pipe path?

I'm sure (think) I'm wrong... but would sure like to understand. Any chance you could "draw me a picture".

Incidentally, GREAT explanation of GFI's. Thank you

Thank you in advance.

Peter


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> But if the neutral and the ground were tied together at a box and the neutral was broken and someone grabbed the fridge and grabbed the copper water pipe (or any ground) and there was other draw on the circuit.... would not the potential accross that person be 0 (adjusted plus/minus for any varience in the resistivity of the two ground paths) ???


I don't understand what you're describing. It sounds like you're using a person as part of a circuit. If so there will be current flowing in accordance with Ohms Law.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> If so there will be current flowing in accordance with Ohms Law.


And Thevenin's Theorem.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> And Thevenin's Theorem.


Morrisey's Maxim, as well.


----------



## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Midwestguy954 said:


> When replacing a receptacle in an older home that has a two wire system, {no ground} a GFI receptacle is to be used and label it no ground as I read the code. If I'm not correct on this please set me straight. I have another question though that I'm trying to work out in my head. *Why is it your not allowed to connect the ground to the neutral in that same box with the new GFI receptacle?* Seems like that should work fine. Thanks for reading.


I've wondered this too, since the ground and neutral are on the same bus when I look inside the electric panel. But when I did my mobile home years ago the electrical inspector said the equipment ground and neutral need to be on separate busses. He explained the reasoning behind it but I didn't really understand. 

On my mobile home the equipment ground bus led to the metal racks supporting the home and two rods that I pounded into the dirt. The neutral led back to the transformer, so in that case it's understandable not connecting the neutral and ground inside the box. But when the neutral and ground are connected in the electric panel, wouldn't connecting them at the outlets have the same effect?


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I don't understand what you're describing. It sounds like you're using a person as part of a circuit. If so there will be current flowing in accordance with Ohms Law.





MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> 480Sparky....
> 
> I apologise as I'm a GC and not a pro electrician or EC and I'm confused as to the above.
> 
> ...


Sparky... I thought I was describing exactly what you described. And I do not understand why that circumstance creates the rather serious /catastrophic shock potential that I thought you implied. (Again I am not advocating we create hot grounds)

I am making the person part of a parellel/duplicate circuit (on the neutral side) ,as you described. Isn't the fridge and the water pipe (Ithink you used the kitchen sink) at virtually the same potential to ground, and consequently at virtually 0 potential to each other. According to OHM law, when V=0, I (current/amp) has to equal 0. 

Isn't your circumstance pretty much a "bird on the wire".

I think I'm refering to the perfect conductor, and there could be a relatively minor impedience in the ground wire giving rise to a minor potential in the two ground paths.???

I don't understand your reasoning and original explanation.

I don't pretend to know what a pro should know, but I would really appreciate your resoning in your original post as I sure don't understand it.

Sorry if I'm a DF

Does anyone else undersatnd it?

Thyanks 
Peter


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Try a little light reading.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Sparky... I thought I was describing exactly what you described. And I do not understand why that circumstance creates the rather serious /catastrophic shock potential that I thought you implied. (Again I am not advocating we create hot grounds)
> 
> I am making the person part of a parellel/duplicate circuit (on the neutral side) ,as you described. Isn't the fridge and the water pipe (Ithink you used the kitchen sink) at virtually the same potential to ground, and consequently at virtually 0 potential to each other. According to OHM law, when V=0, I (current/amp) has to equal 0.
> 
> ...


If you tie the ground and neutral together in a receptacle box, AND YOU LOOSE THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THIS POINT AND THE PANEL, then you energize the ground/neutral connection when a load is placed on the circuit. Since the ground is tied to the now-energized neutral, the case of the fridge or washing machine or freezer is how at 120v to ground. Touch it and ground, and 120 volts will flow through you.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Volts don't flow. :whistling:


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Volts don't flow. :whistling:



Then how do they get to the end of the wire....:whistling:whistling


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

480sparky said:


> If you tie the ground and neutral together in a receptacle box, AND YOU LOOSE THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THIS POINT AND THE PANEL, then you energize the ground/neutral connection when a load is placed on the circuit. Since the ground is tied to the now-energized neutral, the case of the fridge or washing machine or freezer is how at 120v to ground. Touch it and ground, and 120 volts will flow through you.


]

"Quote from original posting:If, for whatever reason, the 'neutral' of your wiring should become disconnected, everything in your house......... your fridge, computer, TV, everything plugged in that has a ground pin on the end of the cord....... a 'hot' conductor" (I haven't figured out how to multi-quote as yet.)

480 Sparky and Tinslefl....

Honestly thanks for your assistance and honestly I'm not trying to be an AH (that's not "authority having") and honestly I'm just trying to understand the original posting by 480.

I'm just a GC. You guys are the electrical pro's... and I understand most everything you say, I'm just confused here.

Sparky... your last explanation said : " and you loose the connection between this point and the panel" ... did you mean the neutral connection AND the EGC ground conection, or did you mean, as in your first post, just the neutral is broken.

I am assuming the home is correctly EGC'd back to supply and the sink, and fridge and plumbing is correctly bonded back to the service grounding. Was that your assumption.?

If, as in your original post, just the neutral is broken, does not the EGC ground serve as a neutral, and would not that have the same potential as the fridge which is tied back to the grounding and supply system??? 

Ignoring/negating any differential in the grounding conductors impedances , are not the fridge and sink both neutrals and at the same potential???

Would I really get a serious / catastophic shock. Maybe I should wire it up and try it. (Thought I'd say that before you told me to do it)

When I take my multimeter, a neutral to ground (with a load on the circut) shows a potential of 0. I'm confused,... how is your circumstance and explanation different.

If you ment to say that both the neutral and ground wires were broken, (or that the EGC and service grounding were not correct) I understand what you were originally saying. 

However, I would still not understand how the fridge to sink would be a greater shock than "getting between neutral and hot" as I think you were saying in your origanal post.

Guys, I hold your assistance and expertise in high regard and just am confused. It still seems like the "bird on the wire" to me. 

Tin... Thanks, I did read what you sent me... and I thought I understood it generally, but it made me think that two equally grounded objects do not have a potential difference.

Thanks for anyone who can explain this to me.

Please know again that I am not advocating we create hot grounds. Neutral and ground have different purposes. I'm just trying to understand why I don't understand Sparkys post. 

Sincerely

Peter


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

You might as well ask how gravity gets to the bottom of a waterfall.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> ]..............
> Sparky... your last explanation said : " and you loose the connection between this point and the panel" ... did you mean the neutral connection AND the EGC ground conection, or did you mean, as in your first post, just the neutral is broken............


Just the neutral... there's NO GROUND WIRE.



Midwestguy954 said:


> When replacing a receptacle in an older *home that has a two wire system, {no ground}* a GFI receptacle is to be used and label it no ground as I read the code. If I'm not correct on this please set me straight. I have another question though that I'm trying to work out in my head. Why is it your not allowed to connect the ground to the neutral in that same box with the new GFI receptacle? Seems like that should work fine. Thanks for reading.


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> You might as well ask how gravity gets to the bottom of a waterfall.



Cuz the water pushes it down there...:whistling:thumbup::laughing:


dam, your on it tonight Grand Pa...:thumbsup: :laughing:


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> Volts don't flow. :whistling:


Tin.... We both know the kidding, but to some degree your comment is kinda important... I'm older and new to internet, but it seems that we do get things that people say impresisly and/or incorrectly that can confuse us all.

Thanks for the grounding/bonding artical... it still could not solve my confusion, but it did teach me some things.
Peter


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Bottom line Pete, there aren't enough hours in the day for the average working stiff to get a "gestalt" understanding of how electricity actually works. Best bet is to follow code and the dictation of the AHJ--and if that's a problem, pay a sub to deal with it. :thumbsup:


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Just the neutral... there's NO GROUND WIRE.


"

If you were to tie the 'neutral' and 'ground' together at an outlet in a box, you basically turn the exposed metal parts of whatever you plug in into a current-carrying conductor. You effectively create a potential of 120v to ground." Your Quote 480 Sparky in original post My underline

Again Sparky, am I crazy. And if there is no ground, how does the fridge get energized and a current carrying conductor


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Hey Mtn...

I am* NOT* being a smart arse here...

Seriously look here & buy the book for starters....:thumbsup:

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/electronics-basics-fundamentals-of-electricity.html


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> You might as well ask how gravity gets to the bottom of a waterfall.


Tin....

I'm not sure how you ment that.... can you explain this electrical issue, or are you just an internet hack. My apology to you and Griz if I've misunderstood.

Peter


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Tin....
> 
> I'm not sure how you ment that.... can you explain this electrical issue, or are you just an internet hack. My apology to you and Griz if I've misunderstood.
> 
> Peter



Hey Pete,

That was me and Grand Pa jabbin' at each other....:laughing::laughing:

How us old guys have our fun...:no::whistling:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> Bottom line Pete, there aren't enough hours in the day for the average working stiff to get a "gestalt" understanding of how electricity actually works. Best bet is to follow code and the dictation of the AHJ--and if that's a problem, pay a sub to deal with it. :thumbsup:


Tin.... Sorry, I misunderstood your comment and posted while you were apparently posting.

I just thought the internet was a place to ask questions. Maybe I'm dead wrong with the issue. But maybe I'm dead right. I would love someone knowledgeable to just say I'm dead wrong and I will then discover (and learn) why I'm dead wrong, or that internet chat sites are sometimes worthless.

When in my other diciplines as a GC, I do see alot of misinformation and poor advice from so called tradesman, but sometimes I do learn something.

Anyway, I know your time is valuable, and I won't bother anyone who does not want to explain this issue.

I do mean sincerely... thanks for your time... and I will remenber your waterfall/gravity anaology. 

Also just one last quick question: If God is all powerfull, can he make a rock that he can not lift.

Best

Peter


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> I'm not sure how you ment that.... can you explain this electrical issue, or are you just an internet hack.


Let me remove all doubt; I am indeed an internet hack--albeit one with 30 years+ worth of experience as an electronics tech.

Of course I can explain it. Do you have the time and funds to employ me as a personal tutor to take you through all of the studies involved in a four year degree, which barely scratches the surface of theoretical physics?


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Damn crossposting anyway. :laughing:


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> "
> 
> If you were to tie the 'neutral' and 'ground' together at an outlet in a box, you basically turn the exposed metal parts of whatever you plug in into a current-carrying conductor. You effectively create a potential of 120v to ground." Your Quote 480 Sparky in original post My underline
> 
> Again Sparky, am I crazy. And if there is no ground, how does the fridge get energized and a current carrying conductor


Loss of neutral.


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

griz said:


> Hey Mtn...
> 
> I am* NOT* being a smart arse here...
> 
> ...


Griz... Honestly thanks for the comment... I know it was ment nice... but I do want you to know that although I'm not an EC or electrician by any longshot, as far as residential, I have completely wired two new builds (that as homeowner I am allowed to do) under permit, both in Co and Ca, without any problem. Additionally, I've done numerous rewiring etc in many flip homes, under permit, without any exceptions.

So I'm sure I can learn something from Dummies book, but I still do not understand what 480 was saying, and I think he is wrong. Do you think/know he is correct?

Best

Peter


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Just from what I have seen around here 480 is an undisputed wealth of electrical knowledge. In my recollection he has never been wrong.

If the neutral becomes energized...it is no longer a neutral.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

OK: you have TWO wires coming into a receptacle for the fridge. A hot and a neutral. Old house, wired in 2-wire with no ground.

To fake the inspector out, you land the neutral on both the silver and green screws of the receptacle. The inspector plugs in his little 3-light tester, and it shows OK.

Plug in the fridge, and it works. Everyone's happy.

Two weeks from now, the neutral connection in the panel for that circuit fails. The fridge no longer runs. Naturally, the HO figures this out from the light not working and the ice cream that's dribbling out of the freezer. 

The hot, however, is _still connected and has 120volts to ground_. Since you tied the neutral and ground screws together at the receptacle, _the entire fridge is now energized to 120v to ground potential._

Touch it, and any ground, and you'll git knocked on your arse.



THAT is why you cannot tie the ground and neutral together on the receptacle.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Pete, FWIW I think you actually have a point, but it's gotten drowned out with all the side-sallies. Draw up a schematic and start fresh, and maybe we can make sense of this for you.


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Loss of neutral.


Sparky...

You are a master at not answering my original questions in accordance with your original post. You should have been an attorney or a politician.

If you do tie the neutral and ground together in a box, and loose your neutral, I agree with you that the fridge becomes a current carrying neutral side conductor.... but how do you get a catstropic shock in the senario and circumstances you told the internet in your first post. MY ORIGINAL QUESTION.

And if you are right, why is that shock greater than getting between a hot and neutral.

Could you have been wrong in your original post and is my question and concern and confusion just misplaced??

Peter


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Sparky...
> 
> You are a master at not answering my original questions in accordance with your original post. You should have been an attorney or a politician.
> 
> ...


OK, lets' start from scratch. We've got 16 million scenarios going on in this thread. MY RESPONSE has been *to the OP'S QUESTION*, just as much as YOUR QUESTION about MY RESPONSE to the OP'S QUESTION.

Describe, in excruciating detail, the situation YOU are referring to. *Forget* the OPs question.

Is there a ground, or not? Is the ground & neutral tied together? Is the neutral open or not?


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

How about stop being a cheap azz and hire an electrician..


----------

