# People have no shame...



## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Check this gem of a lead that just came in from our website:

"Project Description: THE SIZE OF THE DECK IS 19 X 20. I WOULD LIKE TO START RIGHT AWAY, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO GET A GOOD PRICE. I ALREADY HAVE THE PLANS AND PERMIT."

And I suppose they'd also like me to cook them dinner too.

I'm sure this person has no idea that they are getting off on the wrong foot in their defense.


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## MikeGC (Dec 6, 2008)

Good fast or cheap pick any two. Nope doesnt get it.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Greg Di said:


> I WOULD LIKE TO START RIGHT AWAY, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO GET A GOOD PRICE. I ALREADY HAVE THE PLANS AND PERMIT."


:blink:

:blink: yeah baby permits in hand:blink::no:


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## VA Remodeler (Aug 8, 2007)

I just got an E-mail today and the homeowners told me how long it will take to do the job. ...Ain't that something...

Bill


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

VA Remodeler said:


> I just got an E-mail today and the homeowners told me how long it will take to do the job. ...Ain't that something...
> 
> Bill


 If they have the ability to put it to total hours, they obviously don't need your help.:laughing:

Return E-mail....
"Good luck with your project, please keep in mind, we also do repairs"


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

Greg Di said:


> Check this gem of a lead that just came in from our website:
> 
> "Project Description: THE SIZE OF THE DECK IS 19 X 20. I WOULD LIKE TO START RIGHT AWAY, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO GET A GOOD PRICE. I ALREADY HAVE THE PLANS AND PERMIT."
> 
> ...


Greg I honestly don’t see anything wrong with HO’s e-mail.

I get calls like this all the time, in fact today. It wasn’t for a deck it was for a 3500 SQ FT frame. 

“Plans are drawn and permits ready, if your price is in my budget you can start tomorrow”

I turned this project down because I’m booked till mid December but that’s not the point.

What’s the difference between a deck being ready and a frame being ready, not much?

I think you could be missing out on a great opportunity


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Festerized, I tend to agree. I am a little perplexed as to what is so wrong with the lead. Someone care to explain? HO showing too much of a control thing?? Maybe the ho is well organized and knows what he wants.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Around here, a homeowner who already has the permit is planning on contracting it himself and will probably seek someone to do it for cash. Not sure how it is where you guys are, but I bet that's what Greg is alluding to. That being said, my only question to Greg is: So when do you start?:laughing:


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Here the permits are in my company's name not a HO so that for me would be a dead lead as I wont let anyone work under my permit and I am certainly not going to work on a HO permit.


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## Kevin M. (Feb 28, 2010)

HMMMM. If the customer want's to project manage or micro manage, I may agree. The stress and drama require me to increase my bid by 25-35%. That's a good price if I have to endure the hardship of them being to active in the project.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Greg Di said:


> ....BUT I WOULD LIKE TO GET A GOOD PRICE


I am going to guess this is what Greg is talking about. That is a red flag to me. The implication to me is that "everyone else has been too expensive"

And cap locks. That kills it for me :laughing:


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## Bill Z (Dec 10, 2006)

The only thing for sure is that people communicate in different ways. 

One can assume what this prospect means, but the only way to know is to follow through, with an open mind.

Who knows what " I want a good price" means? Don't we all want a good price, or feel like we are getting one?

Sounds like a great lead to me. It costs little or nothing to find out.


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

It looks like the whole message was capitalized except for the project description. 
Which could have been a mistake when HO shifted caps for colon?


kev brings up a good point about the permits, if HO supplies the permit then who honors the warranty?
Technically there’s no difference if ho supplies permit or not in regards to warranty, HO is still owner in fee. If HO was a contractor and you where hired as a sub and there was a problem the warranty starts at the GC and then gets handed down to sub, the GC having ultimate responsibility except when GC is the owner, then the buck stops at you!
Whoever pulls the permit will have overall responsibility over the entire project, except when HO is GC


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

"Project Description: THE SIZE OF THE DECK IS 19 X 20. I WOULD LIKE TO START RIGHT AWAY, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO GET A GOOD PRICE. I ALREADY HAVE THE PLANS AND PERMIT."

That whole thing sounds like textbook jargon from "HO CONTRACTOR DIY" magazine.

A bite from you sends a message to them that you are available on short notice and willing to haggle on your numbers.

I'd wait a day or two, reply to them that you are booked in the near future, but would be happy to meet with them to discuss their needs.

Then I would explain to them that a good price is very rarely a cheap price...


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## jhammer7 (Nov 19, 2009)

Loneframer,

That return email above is priceless! I think that speaks volumes without being insulting. 

I was just told that I did not get a job because we could not start it immediatly and the homeowner was concerned that it would drag on once winter arrived even though I told them that we work in all weather other than active storms. 

This was an acquaintence that told me THE DAY BEFORE, that we had an agreement, that we would work on final plans, put sonotubes in the ground before frost and start building after the holidays.

Thanks,:notworthy


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## William James (Mar 5, 2010)

"I want a good price"
"give me your best price"
"I have several estimates. if you can beat them then the job is yours"

These are red flags!
It comes down to PRICE. Your "good price" will usually not be good enough and they'll try to negotiate with you like they were buying a used car. Or not contact you. 

The permit being pulled could add to it. 
The permit could be that they planned on doing it themselves or something. Ready to start right away? Because the permit is going to expire? Either way, they were looking to save money by doing it themselves or having a mark-up on the permit or something. 

Greg, just write her back and ask
"don't you watch DIY Network?" 
"best price, ready to start?
I'm booked through next Christmas!"


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

I don't see anything wrong with this lead. I had a few HO who did the same, when I came to do an estimate they had plans, design and permit and they where the best customers. I asked them why you took the permit out and not let contractor do it and the reason was, they wanted to make sure it will be filed (they have heard stories and did the research)...not to mention how much time it saved me,all I had to do is stop by and do the permit update.

Good price remark? Come on...everyone is asking for a good price when trying to buy something or get something done...including me, including you Greg and everyone in here, stop being so paranoid... if you need work go and do the estimate, if you don't need work, blow them off and move on.:thumbsup:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Come on guys...there is nothing wrong with that post. The guy is not saying "I have estimates...beat the price" or " I want the cheap price". Stop turning this into the soap opera :whistling and the ones who know me. know I be the first one to make a comment and back anybody up if it was bad...but in this case, the HO is being straight forward. As a matter a fact, it sounds like he just want the job done. Someone will go there,meet the HO, give them the price and get the job.

I think guys, some of you blew this one out of its proportions...Don't you have enough Drama in your life? :laughing:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

A couple months ago I was in a 10' ditch working on a lateral issue when my phone started ringing. It was on top of the sod and couldn't reach it.

When I finished the repair I check the message.

_*"Hello Mike, I need you to come over asap and disconnect and cap off a softener. It doesn't work and we doesn't want a softener anymore. If you can do this for less than $100 it's yours. It's a very easy job, I would do it myself but I don't have time, or the tools, plust you have experience so your faster". You can leave the softener in the basement, I will move it because I don't want to be charged anymore than I have to"*_

What would you think if you got this message?

How would you react?

I ended up calling him back and I did the work the next morning. I ended up working at his house all day and the bill was over $2,000.

Many times we are right to assume it's a bunk customer , experience is a good guide and experience would indicate Greg is probably right.......BUT, you never know! I had no idea I would show up and start replacing cast iron drains. My material cost for the job was less than $200. It was a very high margin job.

Something to think about at least.

Mike


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

Some people sure are making a lot od assumptions based on a 2 sentence reply to an autoform from a website. Perhaps English is not their first language? Perhaps they were in a rush and wanted to type only enough to open a dialogue? Heck, they may have thought they were helping by saying they have plans and permit, i.e. done some leg work on the project.

Maybe there are some red flags there, maybe there aren't. I would think that someone with Greg's experience could make one phone call and determine if the prospect is legit or just really price shopping.

Really, at the end of it, what is so out of line about a prospect with plans and permit calling, of all things, a deck builder looking for a quote?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I like Mike's story about the dead end job that turned into a gold mine.

However, just as playing the lottery isn't a realistic retirement plan, running a business based on the same principles won't work either. Yes, there will always be somebody who wins the lottery, but it won't be you. Sure, there will always be that dead end job that turned into a gold mine, but for the one that pans out there were 20 that didn't. We like to remember the one that did and forget the ones that didn't.

If you're busy, everything you do, every decision you make, every person you spend time with has an opportunity cost associated with it. Greg's busy, so he has to avoid low percentage leads, because there are only so many hours in the day, and spending time with low percentage leads means you won't have the time to spend with the high percentage leads that will be coming along.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Would you suggest _n_o response at all Mike? It's easy to have/save a canned email message for projects you don't want to pursue, maybe a few of 'em that you tweak just a bit depending on circumstances.

I send out one or make a quick phone call no matter what. I'm not busy now, but I've done the same thing over the years when I was busy too.

Quick, easy...and ya still cover your arse in case it's a 1 in 20 shot.

Takes a couple of minutes max. Now if you're getting 5, 10, 20 a DAY, then you've got other problems with your advertising I would guess.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Here's a version of a "canned" response from a web-form I received on Monday in regards to a basement wet bar...

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Hi ***xx,

Thanks for taking the time to contact us through our website, I appreciate it. I would be happy to help you with your bar design. I would first come out too meet with you and get a rough idea of what you may be considering, then, take measurements and pictures of the area(s) to start on the "Existing" floor plan.

After that I begin work on the "Proposed" revisions, which are sent to you via pdf files, like the attached, for your review and comment. I've attached a few sample floor plan pdf's for your review, to illustrate how I go about the design phase.

Depending on the size of the bar you most likely be looking at $500-$750 for the design, which is credited towards your project total when I am hired to build it. If you would like whole basement drawn/designed, that normally runs from .75-1.25 per sq. ft, depending on level of detail.

If you would be interested in starting with a design, I am available the latter part of next week (Nov. 4th or 5th) if that would be convenient for you, just let me know.


Have a good evening.

------------

Now, there were no "red flags" in his web-form, but I would send something similar regardless.

The red flag came in his response. :laughing:


_Hmmmm....

I might be misunderstanding you. Sounds like you might be charging $$ to come out and look. 

We are interested in learning what you might suggest to put a wet bar in our already finished basement. If you have good ideas (and from the photos on your site my wife pointed out to me I'm sure you do) and are able to show/project a good economical (times are tough) solution, then we might go with you. 
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

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_Then my next canned response...no reply from him...only crickets. :whistling

_Thanks for the reply ***xx. And yes, I do charge for design work for each project I'm involved in (which I do before generating any type of proposal). 

I'm a very small operation and have to charge for my time, as it's a finite resource. I don't employ a separate designer or estimator, and I'm the lead carpenter and cabinet maker on my projects, with help as needed. 

I'm not able to do "free" estimates as I just don't have enough hours in the year, and even then, it would be an overhead cost with the clients that do hire me, subsidizing the time I've spent with those that don't. I realize this may not be the norm, but it's what has worked best for my business over the years.

I do appreciate your inquiry and wish you well with your project if my process is not one that suits your current needs.
_


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I think this is a good example of why you folks with larger projects "qualify" people to fit you business model.

In my business model most people qualify because I do emergency service as a bulk of my business. In my case the idea is to get the phone ringing, period! When my phone rings it's 99% sold and my margins are always the same for the most part.

In the case of Greg he does larger type projects than myself and has a steady stream of it. His process, i'm sure, includes a means to qualify. Not only does he need to get his phone to ring but then he has the added step of seperating the good from the bad.

When I used to do more remodeling and new construction I had to go through the same process so I can relate to this quite well.

Mike

Mike


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Also Mike, I'm guessing you charge a service/trip charge...so you're not moving until some $ will change hands, correct?


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Jay, great job of holding your ground and defining your business model.:thumbsup:

I would take out this sentence though; _I realize this may not be the norm_

You just implied to the customer your the only contractor who charges, I would craft something that sends a strong signal that "YOU DA MAN" . You know what I'm saying? Just a thought anyhow.

You hit the nail on the head though, defining what your business is about is critical. 

Mike


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

J F said:


> Also Mike, I'm guessing you charge a service/trip charge...so you're not moving until some $ will change hands, correct?


Correct, I charge a service call/trip charge.

Sometimes though I do freebies. It really depends on the person, I'm a softie when it comes to single moms and elderly folks. If it's something simple like a flapper or a plugged toilet and the person is 90 years old I'll do it for free.

They deserve it.

Mike


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Thanks Mike, and yeah, I've thought about that phrase and how to best put it, just due to the fact that what I almost always hear is..._but everyone does free estimates_. :wallbash:

I should just act surprised..._"really...why would they do that? I could spend a 1000 hours a year in "free" estimates...but I'd rather go fishing/mow the lawn/shoot myself." :laughing:_


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

J F said:


> Thanks Mike, and yeah, I've thought about that phrase and how to best put it, just due to the fact that what I almost always hear is..._but everyone does free estimates_. :wallbash:
> 
> I should just act surprised..._"really...why would they do that? I could spend a 1000 hours a year in "free" estimates...but I'd rather go fishing/mow the lawn/shoot myself." :laughing:_


Your right, that's a tough one.

But hey, if it works don't change a thing. If I got that response from an email I would respect you more than a guy wanting to come for free.

Something about paying for stuff makes me feel better, can't explain it. The more I pay the better I feel.

Mike


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

_When_ you feel like you're getting good value for the cost.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

...or do ya just like throwin' money away...I'll call with my mailing address. :laughing:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

One thing I left off on my post about this prospect...he lives in a country club where homes range in the $1-$5m range....yep, times are definitely tough in this economy. :laughing:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

J F said:


> ...or do ya just like throwin' money away...I'll call with my mailing address. :laughing:


I think that you get what you pay for. Maybe being a contractor I'm just tainted but when I want something done the expensive guy is almost always a better bet.

My neighbor got a good deal on his deck this summer. It's so crooked and f'd up it needs to get torn down and it's brand new.

I set him up with a great guy to build him a deck but he was about 40% higher so he didn't do it.

If my buddy would of built it, the deck would of been flawless in every detail. It's ok though, my buddy is slammed with work while the cheap guy went out of business (so I heard).

It's like boots. I bought Red Wings for years then I decided to buy a cheap pair of boots "work n sport". I'll never do that again, I swear my bacj is ruined for life cause of those cheap boots. I went back to Red Wing and never looked back.

Yeah, it's safe to say I like to spend where it makes sense. I'm cheap in other ways though, like my wife birthday.:laughing:

Mike


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

J F said:


> One thing I left off on my post about this prospect...he lives in a country club where homes range in the $1-$5m range....yep, times are definitely tough in this economy. :laughing:


That's funny!:laughing:


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## MSLiechty (Sep 13, 2010)

J F said:


> Hi ***xx,
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to contact us through our website, I appreciate it. I would be happy to help you with your bar design. I would first come out too meet with you and get a rough idea of what you may be considering, then, take measurements and pictures of the area(s) to start on the "Existing" floor plan.
> 
> ...



more often than not you get what you pay for. Design consultations are worth their time and price. 

I'd hire you! 


ML


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Care to move to the atlanta area? :laughing:


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## MSLiechty (Sep 13, 2010)

J F said:


> Care to move to the atlanta area? :laughing:



only if you do the design work I'll do the building!



ML


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Who's gonna sell?


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## MSLiechty (Sep 13, 2010)

maybe Mike? he went from a $100 softener cap to a $2000 sale with only $200 in material!

ML


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

You in Mike?


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

Jay,

Did your potential client write "times are tough" or was that what you implied? If it were your client, he's got some nerve quoting "times are tough" and then going out and buying a wet bar. That's when I'd get my fiddle out.

Greg,

You're right to throw up the red flags with an inquiry like that - if you're busy you don't need to waste your time chasing those leads down. 

If you thought that's insulting though, there's on-line procurement sites and they post your ranking after you submit your bid. Then, if you're not the low number, you can keep resubmitting until time runs out - imagine that! 

I wouldn't be surprised if that is the next step from your lead...."Thank you for your quote, you but you are not the low contractor, if you would like to re-submit your price kindly do so before 5pm. Signed, another homeowner who is going to get screwed by a lowball contractor.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Sar-Con said:


> Jay,
> 
> Did your potential client write "times are tough" or was that what you implied? If it were your client, he's got some nerve quoting "times are tough" and then going out and buying a wet bar. That's when I'd get my fiddle out.


Those were all the prospects words, I just highlighted in red. Swmbo and I got a good chuckle out of it.


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## MSLiechty (Sep 13, 2010)

I've participated in those reverse auctions, for large projects. Target uses them a lot, We submitted one price that was it it. They is always going to be someone cheaper and more stupid than I who will usually end up doing it for cost or worse!

ML


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

J F said:


> You in Mike?


I love Atlanta, I'm not even sure why I live in Wisconsin anymore. family I suppose. The trick is convincing the wife and kids.:laughing:

Mike


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

I'll call all winter with the local weather report. :shifty: That should win the wife over...the kids probably love the snow though.


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

festerized said:


> Greg I honestly don’t see anything wrong with HO’s e-mail.
> 
> I get calls like this all the time, in fact today. It wasn’t for a deck it was for a 3500 SQ FT frame.
> 
> ...


If I put the rest of the info from the web contact in, you'd think otherwise. This was just the overtly bad qualifier. If I gave you the other three pieces, it would be a sure lockout.

I called the guy and left a message. As stupid as this sounds, I can tell from his name, his voice, and his town pretty much exactly who the (type of) guy is. I'd put money on the fact that if I told him it was free, it would be too much.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Italian, huh? :w00t:


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

J F said:


> Italian, huh? :w00t:


Bingo.

And I are one too, so I can say it. :laughing:

Problem is the _brand_of Italian....

:laughing:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

I kind of figured...with "Di" :laughing:


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

What is a brandof Italian?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

ragu, barilla, chef boyardee...:whistling


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## MSLiechty (Sep 13, 2010)

Jay has lots of time on his hands today. :shifty:

ML


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

It's not just _today_. :laughing:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

MSLiechty said:


> Jay has lots of time on his hands today. :shifty:
> 
> ML



And don't think I haven't seen ya postin' on jlc today either. :w00t:


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Doubleoh7 said:


> What is a brandof Italian?


You have "Soprano or Jersey Shore" style of Italians that are more ethnic and you have middle of the road Italians that don't make a big deal of it. Like any heritage...there are the extremes stereotypes are born from.

To give you perspective, a client's Italian mother today thought I was Irish!

I fly right over the tops of the waves....:laughing:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Greg Di said:


> To give you perspective, a client's Italian mother today thought I was Irish!
> 
> I fly right over the tops of the waves....:laughing:


 Greg McDi?:whistling


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## MSLiechty (Sep 13, 2010)

J F said:


> And don't think I haven't seen ya postin' on jlc today either. :w00t:


 Ouch! Yep I was wasting time as well. :w00t:

ML


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)




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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

loneframer said:


> Greg McDi?:whistling



:shifty:


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## MSLiechty (Sep 13, 2010)

Greg, where do the Jersey shore types fall into the mix? 

Are they despised by Italians as much as they are despised by non-Italians?


ML


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