# 12-3 question



## mikebro22 (Apr 27, 2006)

Hello everyone I'm new to this forum & am really happy to have found it. I'm a first year apprentice & have started doing side work. I would like to run a 12-3 each hot on a dedicated 20 amp push matic breaker. One circuit will feed a 120v 12.6 amp jakuzi motor through a gfci receptacle, the other circuit I want to feed 2 additional gfci receptacles. My question is, will this run okay if I'm sharing the same neutral? The blk wire will be on a breaker on the left side of the panel and the red will be on a breaker on the right side. I appreciate any help.


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## Safety-Guy (Mar 10, 2006)

mikebro22 said:


> I'm a first year apprentice & have started doing side work.


 As for "Side Work" if you worked for my company and were caught doing side work you would be terminated. Even though you are a first year apprentice whose liscense do you work under? I can't tell you how many times people call to complain about work done as "Side Work" and we have to go make repairs on things that the new guys do. We have lost not only apprentices but some seasoned vets for side work. You must ask yourself, are you ready to accept the liability for the work you do and prepared to pay for someone being injured or even worse killed by the work you do. As a first year apprentice I am sorry to tell you but I do not trust you with my life and I do not condone side work by apprentices (or anyone) just from a liability standpoint. 
There is alot more to doing electrical work than just hooking up wires. You have shown that you want to be an electrician, But you should strive to become a "Qualified Electrician"


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

My views parallel Safety-Guy's when it comes to the safety issue and agree unanimously with everything in his post . The idea of an apprentice is to learn under the direct supervision of a Master. I do not like the idea of an apprentice who works for me doing side work (moonlighting). If an apprentice needs more work, I can and will arrange for it and supervise it, no problem. There are to many things that you do not know and a good example is your post. You need to concentrate on your schooling and accumulating experience. Keep asking questions and asking for help. 

Sorry to sound harsh, but being an electrician can be dangerous for the inexperienced and I do not want to see anything bad happen to you. So please continue on your chosen path with caution.:thumbsup:


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## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

I just love it when someone asks a question and the prima-donna holier than thou type tradesmen get all torqued up. You guys don't know anything about this guy other than he has only a year experience and has the desire to learn and work. He did the right thing by asking before just doing it. You just can't generalize saying if you are not a master electrician you should not do any side work. He may be doing this for his Mother for Gods sake. Just because he does not know something does not automatically mean he is a danger to himself and others. He very well may be a careful and detail oriented person. 

As for doing side work for total strangers and using your company name for gravitas I agree this is not a good thing. If however he is doing something for a friend that he is comfortable doing I just don't see the big issue here? It does not take a master electrician to add a few recepticals. Yes there are hacks out there that are sloppy and do stupid things but just because you have only been doing this for a year does not automatically put someone in that catagory. 

Mikebro22, To answer your question just make sure the two circuit breakers are not on the same phase and you can share the nuetral.


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## sundogusa (Dec 4, 2005)

If you worked for me, and this side job was not for immediate family, you would be terminated. The way I see it is you are taking money out of my pocket. I would have to question where you got the materials, also.

Before I answer your question, most of the rules in place prohibit an apprentice from working alone.

If you must do what you are asking, make sure the red and the black are NOT on the same phase. Measure the volts between the two breakers you are using. It should be 240V in a residence.


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## sundogusa (Dec 4, 2005)

robertc65 said:


> Just because he does not know something does not automatically mean he is a danger to himself and others.


Did you really type that 

Fact: Electrical work by unqualified people is dangerous.

<EOM>


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## Bill (Mar 30, 2006)

I tend to lean towards Safety-Guy's point. As a master plumber and building contractor I've seen first hand what some peoiple do on their "SIDE JOBS" and it's not pretty. And as far as electrical goe's if the apprentice is good enough to do work on the side, shouldent he (Or she) know the local codes and be able to answer his (Or her) own question?


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

robertc65 said:


> I just love it when someone asks a question and the prima-donna holier than thou type tradesmen get all torqued up. .


Tell you what, this has gone way too far and I consider your post to have crossed the line. :thumbdown 


By the way, DO YOU REALY know what a "prima donna" is?


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## frenchelectrica (Sep 26, 2003)

i hate to step in but i going to agree with ABP,Sundogusa,safetyguy ,Robertc65, CE1, 

if you want to work on side job you have to talk to the master electrician that person might willing to work with you but each area have diffrent rules for working on side line so please respect us here and heed our warning because we like to keep our names clean that all we need to 


Merci, Marc 

Master Electricican [ USA and France ]


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

mikebro22



CE1 said:


> Sorry to sound harsh, but being an electrician can be dangerous for the inexperienced and I do not want to see anything bad happen to you. So please continue on your chosen path with caution.:thumbsup:


 I still stand by this statment.


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## oldgoat (Aug 18, 2005)

I had one electrician come out for a quote that had his own side business separate from the manf company he works for. In fact many of the maint. people have side businesses there. The guy that did the sheetrocking worked for a drywall company and had his own side business and the drywall company sent him to quote on it. Even the framers and concrete guys had their own side businesses, but they contracted out on their own jobs.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Your enthusiasim is great. But you should be careful not to undertake anything that you are unsure of, especially with electricity. If you have to ask, you should not be doing work on your own. 

Sidework is a dangerous venture. Your health insurance will not cover you if you get hurt doing side work. What happens if someone else gets hurt, killed, or there is property damage? Also, like some of the above posters stated, you could/will be fired. 

One way to look at sidework, essentially you are becoming your employers competition. Employers do not like "training" competition.


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## mikebro22 (Apr 27, 2006)

all this feed back is great although it's a bummer most of it is criticizing. I'm doing this "side job" for a family friend who asked "me". I'm not going around stealing my company's buisiness since this is a residential job and my company is solely commercial. All the material is bought from home depot. I just want to do this job for experience. I have already hooked up a dedicated circuit for them & am carefull about getting all the details before proceeding. The last thing I want to do is injure myself or anyone else. Unfortunately some of you have a negative outlook towards apprentices & choose to withhold information rather than help me out. I did check the breakers w/ my voltage meter & they read 240 so I'm ok on the phases. I scanned through this forum last night and got tons of great information. Thanks to everyone


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

I'm sorry but I have to take the middle ground here, leaning away from safety guy. 

Did any of you do "side work"? Almost everyone does/did side work. If you think different you are naive. 

If you think side work is taking money out of your pockets then you really do think highly of yourselves, in that EVERY job in or around town will go to you. I think not.
Folks who will hire side job workers will NOT hire you. They will hire a handyman, apprentice, or do it themselves. ANYTHING to not have to pay our exorbitant rates (in their eyes). I persoanlly would rather not work for folks like that. Let the side job guys have them. 

sundog, if you have to question whether your guys are stealing from you to do side work you should question even keeping them employed. They's a pretty dim view of your workers. If I had that much suspicion they would probably not be around long enough for it to be an issue.

As for rules and licensing. Folks from metopolitan areas always have these issues. What about MOST of the country. In my area (county), not all too far from the biggest metro area, there are only three small cities and villiages that require a license. Outside that anyone can do electrical work. I will say I DO have a big problem with this, but it is fact.
I'd also rather have a knowledgable electrician doing a job than a handyman or carpenter who _thinks_ they know what they are doing.

On the other side of the argument, I strongly feel that a first or second year apprentice, especially union or commercial, has *NO* place doing residential , or any, side work. IMO you do NOT know nearly enough to do a complete and safe job with that little experience, not matter how much you think you know.


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## sundogusa (Dec 4, 2005)

> sundog, if you have to question whether your guys are stealing from you to do side work you should question even keeping them employed. They's a pretty dim view of your workers. If I had that much suspicion they would probably not be around long enough for it to be an issue.


I did and I have. The guy that was let go was stealing material. It is one of the few policies I have. 



> Wow all this feed back is great although it's a bummer that most of it is criticizing. I'm doing this "side job" for a family friend who asked "me". I'm not going around stealing my company's buisiness since this is a residential job and my company is solely commercial. All the material is bought from home depot. I just want to do this job for experience. I have already hooked up a dedicated circuit for them & am extra carefull to get all the details before I proceed. The last thing I want to do is kill or injure anyone especially my friends. It's unfortunate some of you have a negative outlook towards apprentices & would choose to with hold information to help me out. Though I do appreciate those who are backing me up. I did check the breakers w/ my voltage meter & they read 240 so I'm ok on the phases. I scanned through this forum last night and got tons of great information. Thanks everyone


Mikebro here is another option for you that was not addressesd. Talk to one of your journeyman or masters. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Sometimes you'll get laughed at and other times you'll pickup on some of the finer points of being a great electrician. Always keep a good attitude!


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## krthomp33 (Apr 4, 2006)

OK, so here is a question concerning "SIDE WORK"

I work in a hospital, as a night maintenance guy, while I do electrical contracting for myself during the day.

Should I be terminated for doing side work?

I hold a masters license, and am fully insured in my business, have a EIN, and a tradename registered with the state.

Should I still be terminated for doing SIDE WORK?



And by the way, my supervisor knows and has no prolem with my business.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

No, because the hospital is not an electrical contractor. They employ you to maintain thier facility. Therefore, you are not in competition with them.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

As for some of the above comments, if you need to ask, then you do not have the adequate knowledge to do a quality job. That is where the term "qualified" electrician comes into play. Qualified would mean you have the knowledge and means to get the job done properly.


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## mikebro22 (Apr 27, 2006)

Thanks for the suggestion sundog. I am asking my company journeyman and foreman tons of questions about these jobs and even calling them during the job to make sure it's done correct. I would just like to get an alternate source of info once in awhile so I don't have to annoy the heck out of them. After 8 monthes of working these are my first jobs by myself. I understand the concern though I'm willing to bet the very same guys who don't agree have done the same thing, they just can't remember because that is ancient history by now.


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## oldgoat (Aug 18, 2005)

It seems to me a fair amount of construction people have side businesses. Just seems around here anyway to be a normal deal. I have known businesses that will give their regular workers that have side businesses the smaller jobs. I know the guy that did my sheetrocking got it that way. As long as they aren't stealing your customers or your material I would hope you would have enough confidence in your business to be able to keep the business and not be afraid of someone trying to get started. I would almost bet that most did side jobs from time to time before they went into full time business themselves.


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## [email protected]&R (Jul 26, 2005)

My 2 cents. It dosent really matter if you have the title of helper, apprentice, journey men, master or anyother title. It seems to me sooner or later you will run into something you don't know. I believe thats why you only need a certain score to get your licensing. Here it's a 70 to become a master. Thats 30 questions out of a 100 that you can not know and still pass. Now if your a master and your asked to go wire a milking machines control wiring at some farm is it wrong to ask someone who has done it how? BTW this was a question on my masters test how to ground a milking machine.  This is an apprentice with a year on the job. Not someone im going to hire to wire a mcc but he should be capable of outlets and such. How many contractors auctually walk hand in hand with their apprentices and check every outlet or switch they put in when they have worked for a year doing it? I may be wrong but I sure don't. I believe he has done exactly what he should have done asked his question to qualified people. I aslo have to say I still don't think it's a good idea to do the work.


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## mas2006 (Mar 18, 2006)

*For All you prima donnas. lol*

Main Entry: pri·ma don·na 
Pronunciation: "pri-m&-'dä-n&, "prE-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural prima donnas
Etymology: Italian, literally, first lady
1 : a principal female singer in an opera or concert organization
2 : an extremely sensitive, vain, or undisciplined person 
:clap: :notworthy :shutup: :thumbup: :laughing:


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

*Stay in School*

First of all Mikebro, does the bro of your name mean you're in the brotherhood? if so what local?

Second of all, if you don't possess the most basic understanding of a panel layout, you better stick to doing what you are told to do at your day job. If you wire it like you said you could possibly have up to 40 amps coming back on your neutral which could very possibly burn down those poor peoples house. I'm sure you've noticed how thick the code book is, which should tell you there's a whole lot to understand about the potential dangers of poor wiring jobs.

Sorry to sound like a pain in the ass, but its the guys that go out doing side jobs, lowballing the contractors to get work, which in turn drives my wages down, or even worse kill some poor unsuspecting family.

My advice is to stay away from the side work, unless its family, in that case wait until you have a full understanding of what you're doing.

And my advice to everyone who reads this, join your local unions to help make life better for all us sparky's


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

sundogusa said:


> Did you really type that
> 
> Fact: Electrical work by unqualified people is dangerous.
> 
> <EOM>


This is also why we regulations in place


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Sparky Joe said:


> ..., which in turn drives my wages down, ...


LOL! They're already double what non-union guys get. 
Uh-oh, did I just say that? :shutup:
Ok, sorry, verboten topic.


Sparky Joe, your last sentence in that post is a topic of great contention and is greatly frowned upon around here. Many a thread has been closed due to union/non-union arguments. 
Just to let you know.


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## mikebro22 (Apr 27, 2006)

sparky joe, could you please explain to me how I wired this project wrong? HOw exactly am I going to have 40 amps returning on the neutral? I pig tailed the neutral on first recept for the jakuzi which is 12.6 amps the other recepts share that same neutral but will have only a lamp or a stereo at most. Is it really fair for you to make things up just to scare me from performing this job. I double checked with my teacher about this particular question since most of the guys here did not want to help. I plead the 5th about the union question.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

*Shared neutral*

Well if both your hot wires in the 12-3 are tied to the same phase in the panel and are both connected to 20 amp breakers, then you can plainly see that you have a possibility of 40 amps coming back on the neutral which would require #8. Didn't mean to be so harsh earlier, first time in this forum, and it seems I'm already making enemy's. I live in Salt Lake City so believe me when I say I know how much people hate unions, but you gotta understand that its only because some people think that we are uneducated and are not worth more than the guy flippin their burgers. What city you live in Mike?
Oh yeah and the simple answer to your question is make sure your two hots are tied in consecutively on the same side of the panel (odd or even)

-Joe


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## mikebro22 (Apr 27, 2006)

no worries sparkyjoe I got defensive because I just finished the job today and it made me worry a bit. I did check the voltage between the 2 breakers though & it measured 240 so they should be on different phases right?. This is my first time on the forum as well & I think it's the best. I'm residing out of Huntington Beach Ca. Go Lakers!!


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

Speedy Petey said:


> LOL! They're already double what non-union guys get.
> Uh-oh, did I just say that? :shutup:
> Ok, sorry, verboten topic.
> 
> ...



The best reply to this subject is "No comment", “I know nothing”, “I see nothing”. “I hear nothing”:w00t: :w00t:


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Sparky Joe said:


> Oh yeah and the simple answer to your question is make sure your two hots are tied in consecutively on the same side of the panel (odd or even)


What if it's a Bulldog Pushmatic panel??? :jester:

Sorry Joe, had to do it. We need a little lighter atmosphere.


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## Rambone (Feb 19, 2006)

No one take this the wrong way but I have seen some Master Electricicans do some pretty :thumbdown type of work. the house I was working on the building inspector made this guy fix half his work.
Now that's 

Ram


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## Rambone (Feb 19, 2006)

Rambone said:


> No one take this the wrong way but I have seen some Master Electricicans do some pretty :thumbdown type of work. the house I was working on the building inspector made this guy fix half his work.
> Now that's
> 
> Ram


So if mikebro22 is working within his limits and not hurting his company what's really the harm.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Well like you said Rambone I think that homeowner was very lucky that the work was inspected, but a majority of side jobs probably like Mikes job are not. He's a smart kid by asking first, but I think he'd do a lot better if he waited till he knew a little more, could also make more money on his side jobs too.


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## Rambone (Feb 19, 2006)

Point taken:thumbsup:


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## Rounders (May 1, 2006)

Hey guys I work in mass and we use NEC 2005, but the rule for multiwire circuits has been around for some time. First of all you must either usse a two pole breaker or mechanically tie the handles the together, you should not be able disconnect one hot on a multiwire circuit. One of the helpful reasons behind this is it prevents you from tapping off the same phase. All panels alternate phases down each side of the busbars. As for drawing 40 amps back on the neutral that is impossible. If you are drawing 20amps on one phase and 15 on the other the neutral only sees 5 amps. When you use a multiwire circuit the loads cancel themselves out. The only problem I see with Mikes installation is that he installed the breakers on opposite sides of the panel , this would be a violation. You may run into trouble with the GfI's as well, since they are looking for loss of current on the neutral. I always wondered if a gfi or afci would nuisance trip on a multiwire circuit. Let me know how it goes. As for sidework we all have done it, as long as you have qualified guys guiding you you should be fine. Just dont take on any jobs you cant handle.


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## mikebro22 (Apr 27, 2006)

Brett, The breakers are on different sides of the panel but also diferent phases the gfci's seem to be working properly could I run into problems with these gfci's in the future? do you suggest I put both of the circuits on the same side? would there be another breaker of the same side that would be different phases. It's a pushmatic panel if that makes any difference.


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## Rounders (May 1, 2006)

The pushmatic panel should not make difference. In a single phase panel if you look at the busbars on one side they alternate a b a b. if you install a two pole breaker you will be grabbing both phases giving you 240 volts. It is a safety issue with having two single pole breakers controlling a multiwire circuit. the problem with a pushmatic panel is getting a two pole breaker let alone a two pole 20amp gfi. You may have trouble with your gfis sharing a neutral. I would wait and see if they nuisance trip, if just the one motor trips then it is problably an older motor causing the problem, if they all trip then it is the multi wire circuit. I am interested to see if they trip, I have refrained from using a multiwire on a gfi for fear of tripping but I have never received a good answer on it.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

So it *IS* a Pushmatic panel!! I was being sarcastic earlier.

Brett, just to let you know, Pushmatic panels have a common buss along each side. The opposite of all other typical panels. So the whole left side is phase A and the whole right side is phase B. This is why thier two-pole breakers are side to side and not above and below.

The two pole breaker on a multi-wire is a judgement call, NOT an NEC requirement. Unless of course both circuits land on the same device yoke.
You can put two single pole breakers anywhere you want in the panel as long as they are on different poles. They DO NOT have to be next to each other. It is just good workmanship if they are.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

About the nuisance tripping your right, I guess the GFIs also trip when theres more on the neutral not just if there's less. I wasn't on the job where this happened so I'm not sure exactly how it was wired, but I know now that we always pull a seperate neutral with GFI's. I'll find out and get back to you on it tomorrow. Another hazard to multiwire circuits is if you lose your neutral somewhere you could feed loads with 240 volts.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

If multi-wires are so hazardous...do you use them?

As a union electrician I assume you do quite a bit of three-phase work. Do you run a neutral with every hot wire?
I know in the considerable commercial work I have done, using multi-wires with three phase has saved a lot of wire, work, conduit fill, unnecessary derating, etc. It is even spec'd in the plans.


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## Rounders (May 1, 2006)

Good to know on those pushmatics, I have only seen one before.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

I have never run into, or even heard of, a problem with GFI circuits sharing a nuetral. We do it all the time in the kitchen, master baths with a W.Pool, and wherever else we can. Now that it is required to pigtail, which we did anyway, we don't use DP breakers unless the two circuits are on the same yoke.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Yeah we share neutrals all the time, call 'em "full boats". But I asked the foreman today about the nuisance tripping problem he had and he said; they pulled a 12/3 MC to a GFI slaved off of it to another receptacle then used the second hot wire to feed another receptacle. Becasue the neutral for the second circuit was tied to the load side of the GFI it would trip every time that second circuit was used. Simple fix though, just had to change that slaved receptacle to a GFI and keep everything on the line side.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

...or just make all neutral connections to the line side (except for the ones that are loaded from the gfi). Why would you/they tie the second circuit neutral to the load side of the gfi circuit? You should not have a gfi connected to the load side of another gfi.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

For those of you who haven't been reading(clearly);
No GFI was on the load side of another GFI.
This was a multiwire circuit with 2 hots and "1" neutral
 I don't know the definition of multiwire(Pete) but this particular cable assembly(as most do) had 2 hot wires with only "one" neutral.

And you're right by saying we shoud've fed the non-GFI receptacle first, but as it happened it did not work out that way, Live and Learn right......and then share


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

True, very true. Live, learn, then help others.


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## brian11973 (Apr 13, 2006)

I have worked with at least 10 "electricans" who insist that you can not tie the ground of a GFCI load in with a ground from say a lighting circuit. Like the switch / plug next to a kitchen sink. The Code states "all grounds" shall be tied together, with some exceptions. I have never seen this situation to be a problem. The GFCI LOAD can never be tied to anything unless you tie both the hot & neutral to the GFCI. With the AFCI breakers now, there is a romex, 12-2-2 availible. A black, red, white, white with a red stripe. It is very handy for GFCIs in the bath. Home run into the plug, the 12-2-2 to the switch, line for the bath lights, load for the shower can. One cable, instead of two, same results. I would think this confirguration would be availible in MC.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

huh? There should be no load on the ground. If there was, the gfi or breaker should trip.


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## TexasContractor (May 7, 2006)

brian11973 said:


> I have worked with at least 10 "electricans" who insist that you can not tie the ground of a GFCI load in with a ground from say a lighting circuit. Like the switch / plug next to a kitchen sink. The Code states "all grounds" shall be tied together, with some exceptions. I have never seen this situation to be a problem. The GFCI LOAD can never be tied to anything unless you tie both the hot & neutral to the GFCI. With the AFCI breakers now, there is a romex, 12-2-2 availible. A black, red, white, white with a red stripe. It is very handy for GFCIs in the bath. Home run into the plug, the 12-2-2 to the switch, line for the bath lights, load for the shower can. One cable, instead of two, same results. I would think this confirguration would be availible in MC.


You never put a load on ground, if you are meaning load side of GFI, twist the wire for load side in the box to id the wire in trim out.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

I am sure glad we "get" to use emt for all our instalations. This is one area where it makes life easier. Plus there are many more color combos available which we can designate to certain appliances, rooms, etc on every job. Makes for a more efficient install, as well as easier to diagnose when someone screws up.


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## TexasContractor (May 7, 2006)

In Texas we use romex(In wall attic under houses) except commerical, and The Town of Highland Park. I have read a lot of post that are distrubing. I will leave that for furure post.


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## brian11973 (Apr 13, 2006)

When I said "load", I meant the load side of a GFCI outlet, not "electrical load" of a circuit. You should never tie a neutral ( _grounded wire_), to bare or green_(grounding wire). EVER!_ Let alone a GFCI. In my example, I was referring to the fact a lot of "electricans" DON'T know the difference between a grounded wire and a grounding wire!

I was trying to say that, if you have a 3 wire( 2 hots, one neutral) into a GFCI outlet, you can not have a 3 wire out with a load. It must be a 2wire LOAD and 2 wire LINE for the other circuit. Or a 4 conductor cable or EMT.


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## mdcorreia (May 21, 2006)

You should make somebody qualified checks the work for safety.

Repplying also about handymen/women;
Handypeople doing tradesmen/women work - I mention this before: Get them busy enough with crappy jobs and customers. They will be too busy to interfere or quote on the same job as you especially if you are on time and give out quick estimates. This is how I deal with it. A lot of times what happens is that, that particular customer who thought I was too expensive, after getting a lousy job done realized that he should have given me the job. How do I know? I get calls from their friends to do their jobs and they tell me who I was referred from. A few who rejected my offer before really felt guilty and wanted to compensate me for the time I took with them to detail all work in the estimate, how it would look in the end, how much exactly it would cost etc.


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## skeeter (May 18, 2007)

Some of us worked very hard to get our licenses. Even as a licensed journeyman I did not do side work. 
1) It is illeagal.
2) It is unfair to the customer and everyone who busted their ass to get licensed. The customer doesn't get quality work, and you cheapen the trade by accepting lower wages.
In Colorado you must have a valid license to do electrical work. Go to the Co. State web site to see the list of violations every quater for doing electrical work without a valid license.


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