# Did I do the right thing?



## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

I would have immediately updated his contract price with another $500 and send it over right away and said "You are correct, no need to get your checkbook out till we sign the contract, as you will note the contract has been updated with my new overhead figured in, now when would you like to get together to go over the finals and sign?"


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

RobertCDF said:


> I would have immediately updated his contract price with another $500 and send it over right away and said "You are correct, no need to get your checkbook out till we sign the contract, as you will note the contract has been updated with my new overhead figured in, now when would you like to get together to go over the finals and sign?"


Robert is real close :thumbsup: Add $500 for the corrected overhead and another $5000 for projected PIA during the project :thumbup:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

tedanderson said:


> I would have to agree that the problem lies in how the HO's expectations were set. The way I would have seen it was that if I was paying you $21,000.. be it for a basement, a deck, or a kitchen remodel, I would think that a few trips over to my house shouldn't be that big of a deal. The few hundreds of dollars in gas and your time is compensated through the many thousands that you are charging.
> 
> Now from one contractor to another, I full understand that this is NOT how it works.. and when you charge $21K, you are going to earn every penny of it. And even if it was MY fault that the HO had unrealistic expectations, I'd still have to walk away from the job.


That assumption only works if you have the signed contract and downpayment check in hand. He was still writing the contract to satisfy the clients need. No money had exchanged hands.


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## roofer up north (Apr 14, 2011)

It's too bad you already had so much time and work into it. But I agree that if this guy is not willing to pay you for work he admits you've already done, who knows what else he would decide you weren't worthy of being paid for.

After 3 trips and 3 changes, it would be hard to just walk away, knowing you've done it for nothing, but even harder to do the 4th trip, now that you know who you'd be working for.

After being insulted like that, it would make me resent any time i spent on the job, unless i was making really, really good money.

I probably would have told the guy, "Ok, fine, whatever you say" and then made some major changes to the contract, including all of the time you spent with him, lots of PIA fees, and whatever else i could think of.

I probably would have lost the job, but at least I made my point.


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## OKMrazor (Aug 8, 2009)

You've got to set the precedent from an early stage. I'm in the process of convincing my bosses of that now. 

Had a whole-house of cabinetry - 13 walls plus two islands - designed by the architect: beautiful vision, but function wasn't there in a few places and structural requirements prevented some things as designed. 

Because the architect had provided drawings, owner of my company (builder) offered the client my design service to do final "tweaks" (his thinking: built in as overhead).

24 hours of client meetings, another 25 or so of multiple drawings, renderings, appliance consultations and "quick changes" to "see how it looks" and a fabricated mock-up of an island corner we ATE it on this one.

I really wanted to set a precedent of time and charges from the outset, but was overruled because they should be quick and easy and "that's one of our services."

Bottom line- while the clients are great, as the hours increased we were not able to change the design pricing because WE set that precedent - free - with no limitation in scope or time.

Clients are spending big bucks on this project, and it's reasonable for them to expect detail - which we provided and I enjoyed - but we needed to set the limitations and/or associated costs, which we did not.

Lessons learned, and hopefully I'll get the go-ahead to broach this early on in future projects like this.


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## eastend (Jan 24, 2006)

So, how many times do you go back without a contract in hand?multiple visits, more design work ... 3x.. 5x.. 8x? This prospective client was using the OP, with no respect for time or effort expended.. Yes, the OP allowed it, but it reveals what the client would have been like as a real customer, imo.
Sure would be different if the project was contracted for, or prospect was paying for design services.


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## trctimberworks (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks for the replies everyone!

What I am getting out of all the replies is that, yes, I did set a precedent by doing the three drawings and contracts for free and did not make it clear that my time will be billed for. At least after the first contract. I am also thinking that I am not going to give drawings away for free anymore either (they were just conceptual, but still). I have used this as a selling tactic to this point, and thought it was working ok. But really, I need to respect my own time too. If I don't, the customer sure as hell won't.

Chalk this one up as a learning experience and move on. More clearity.
Set my expectations at the first meeting.

I appreciate all the comments,



........................even the ones about avatars:blink:


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## onthelevel (Apr 6, 2011)

Sometimes the best jobs are the ones you DON"T GET!!

No offense but if you've only had to deal with one nut in 4 years you are awfully lucky. Everyone for me is like that.

Let some other sucker deal with them.. Some people you will NEVER please.


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## D. Jones Const (Dec 31, 2009)

I learned the hard way on this I never give out free designs or detailed quotes. Once you give the first one for free they expect it. I give out a rough idea of the price if they like it I ask for a design/consultation fee to be paid before design begins.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I don't even give out detailed roofing quotes as in I don't list the amount of anything, just the total price.

I can't imagine doing numerous drawings for free.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

J F said:


> The italian will tell ya all about it. :laughing:


lol @ that...Yea I do know everything about that. Though my current picture is my hair I was growing for cancer donation...Initially I just wanted to grow my hair but then my friend proposed to do it for smth so it was a good cause...It has already been cut short,because it was starting to get to my shoulders and I hated it.


To OP,you did the right thing...if customer is too unreasonable to understand that this trips to his house(gas) and answering their questions(your time) is not worth anything(not to mention the drawings,changing contract,signing,witnessing and other routine) he was probably not worth your time.

This would be type of customer who would want you to change something half way through and make you eat it because,well,he does not think you are up to say "no"

If guy did not want to pony up 50$,where are the guarantees you get paid what you want...and what type of guy will argue over 50$ on 10k job?

On another hand,try getting your name out there as a great contractor with outstanding workmanship and who treats his customers fair...trust me you will recieve plenty of ppl willing to give that 50$ on their job.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

roofer up north said:


> It's too bad you already had so much time and work into it. But I agree that if this guy is not willing to pay you for work he admits you've already done, who knows what else he would decide you weren't worthy of being paid for.


How can you charge something for something you already gave them for free?

You guys are throwing tantrums because you want to change the rules of the game mid stream. The customer was not being unreasonable, nor were they wrong for expecting another visit to be treated as "status quo". 

He should have taken it like a man and ate the cost of another visit. Lesson learned. Charge up front, no matter what, for your design and face time.


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## GPI (Jan 13, 2005)

Just expain to the customer, one of your other customers saw your basement plans, and loved it, so they bought it. haha.....Someones gotta pay! But agree with TNT, you have to set some boundries and set up a schedule. 1st visit free, etc....


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

I think the OP's right to pass on the job. He's also listening to his instinct. He gave freely of his time and expertise. He could of offered a design agreement at that stage with a reasonable retainer which could credit towards the cost of the build but chose not to. Haven't we all chased those jobs where its just gone on too long without a contract? After the 3rd trip its easy to lose motivation.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

go dart said:


> I think the OP's right to pass on the job. He's also listening to his instinct. He gave freely of his time and expertise. He could of offered a design agreement at that stage with a reasonable retainer which could credit towards the cost of the build but chose not to. Haven't we all chased those jobs where its just gone on too long without a contract? After the 3rd trip its easy to lose motivation.


Yes, however, my position is be a man and live up to the arrangement you have on the table. Your character and integrity are put to the test at times of stress. This was one of those times and to me he failed.

I also think it show weakness and a lack of guts to e-mail the customer. Either call and speak to them in person or go and say it to there face. It is cowardice to hide behind an e-mail.

I think he failed in several areas.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Yes, however, my position is be a man and live up to the arrangement you have on the table. Your character and integrity are put to the test at times of stress. This was one of those times and to me he failed.
> 
> I also think it show weakness and a lack of guts to e-mail the customer. Either call and speak to them in person or go and say it to there face. It is cowardice to hide behind an e-mail.
> 
> I think he failed in several areas.


There was no arrangement... There was no signed paperwork, nothing to "man up" about. We have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Yes, however, my position is be a man and live up to the arrangement you have on the table. Your character and integrity are put to the test at times of stress. This was one of those times and to me he failed.
> 
> I also think it show weakness and a lack of guts to e-mail the customer. Either call and speak to them in person or go and say it to there face. It is cowardice to hide behind an e-mail.
> 
> I think he failed in several areas.


Wow..That was a little harsh considering you are saying someone is a coward and a failure pretty much the same as e-mail...I wonder when is the last time you called someone a coward to their face?


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I think the OP has learned some good things here. Set the rules early.

This is not personal, it's business. Years ago we had a real tough customer. After we completed the origional project he wanted even more work done. My partner (at the time) refused to go back, as the client was too difficult to work with.

I said "I'm going". He asked me how could I do that. I told him "because at the end of the day I'll have his money in my pocket". It was a good money maker and I wanted the money.

Don't let this stuff get too personal. Focus on why you are doing this.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Mud Master said:


> I dunno Jay...he's kinda handsome, in a butchy sort of way.
> 
> Why he chooses to shave with sandpaper is another topic though? :blink:



It's an ax :blink:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

*""I refuse to entertain the idea of paying you for any pre-contract work. This should be worked into your overhead and contract"."*


For future reference, there ARE NO "free" estimates... in your pricing you should include an administrative fee. This can accommodate up to however many "free" meetings you want, but you MUST be paid. If you have to go past the first meeting, it is very easy to tell your customer that the free part of the estimate (they equate estimate, quote, etc. as the same thing) is there to give you an idea of the potential costs. Once we start setting up additional meetings and dedicating resources (use this phrase) to your project (which includes your time, gas, etc.), we can either charge a flat admin fee or an hourly charge at $XX/hour, which would you prefer?

If they balk and say something as ridiculous as this one did... tell him - "I don't know any reputable company that doesn't charge for this. It is industry-standard. The ones who don't are usually the ones robbing Peter to pay Paul as they are always running out of money and you never know when YOU, the customer, are going to get caught in that cycle. I don't get the impression that you expect me to work for free, do you?" All said with a big smile on your face...

If after THAT, he still tried the not-paying-you for "pre-contract WORK" BS, you made the right decision. I would have simply said to him, the operative word here is WORK. If I wanted to then drill that point home, I would have also said - "I assume when you show up for work tomorrow, you expect to get paid for your time, right? Even though your employer hired you for the year and longer? While I appreciate the business, should you choose us, I hope it is with the understanding that I value you your time and I hope you value mine as well and that there are costs associated with a successful project. Let me know if you'd like to move ahead..."

If he comes back, he can't then balk when you charge him for your time. If he doesn't, he wasn't your customer anyway... 


*"I never lost any money on a job I didn't get"* - lol... sure you did, just not as much... :clap:


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Yes, however, my position is be a man and live up to the arrangement you have on the table. Your character and integrity are put to the test at times of stress. This was one of those times and to me he failed.
> 
> I also think it show weakness and a lack of guts to e-mail the customer. Either call and speak to them in person or go and say it to there face. It is cowardice to hide behind an e-mail.
> 
> I think he failed in several areas.


I think he would of lived up to any of the 3 previous agreements that were on the table or he wouldn't of put them there. If an unsold job is " testing your character " then GTFO.


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## trctimberworks (Apr 28, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Yes, however, my position is be a man and live up to the arrangement you have on the table. Your character and integrity are put to the test at times of stress. This was one of those times and to me he failed.
> 
> I also think it show weakness and a lack of guts to e-mail the customer. Either call and speak to them in person or go and say it to there face. It is cowardice to hide behind an e-mail.
> 
> I think he failed in several areas.


Yes, I failed in several areas. I am not trying to hide that. This is why I posted the question. I like to learn from my mistakes. But why go meet with him again to call his job off? I already felt like I spent way more time than needed trying to get the job. I could be doing so many other things with those 1-2 hours of my time. Yes, maybe just maybe I could have worked things out with him, but at the time my head was not in it. I feel it was best to send a courteous e-mail and be done with it. Move on; work on getting the next job!


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

trctimberworks said:


> Hello,
> 
> So, two day ago I turned down my first job. First one in four years of business. I am not sure if I did the right thing and wanted to get all of your advice.
> 
> ...


Your gut told you to drop this clown like a hot potato, listen to your gut. 
He was already in your pocket. You did good to cut your losses.
I've done the same thing with no regrets. :thumbsup:


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

jb4211 said:


> It's an ax :blink:


Well...


Either my eyes can't see that well on a mobile phone

or

I'm a hack and don't know the difference. Isn't Axe a deodorant??


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

As pointed out when you do something for free that's what people think it's worth. We do the first trip, within a reasonable distance, for free to introduce ourselves and then the clock starts with the moneys credited towards the total price; also never do any design work for free


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RobertCDF said:


> There was no arrangement... There was no signed paperwork, nothing to "man up" about. We have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.


Sure there was. FREE estimate. He never mentioned to the customer that there was a limit to what he would do for free. He also never went face to face with the customer and explained the situation. He just sent an impersonal e-mail saying sorry I need money if you want me to come out any more. It would be a slap in the face to any customer to start asking for money for something you have given out free without the courtesy of doing it face to face.



summithomeinc said:


> Wow..That was a little harsh considering you are saying someone is a coward and a failure pretty much the same as e-mail...I wonder when is the last time you called someone a coward to their face?


First, I didn't call him a coward. I said it was cowardice, not the same thing. Someone can do something stupid and it doesn't make them stupid. I would have no problem telling him that he needed to man up and that I thought it was cowardice to do it by e-mail. The problem is that you inserted tone in my post. That is the problem with e-mail and a forum. It is far too easy to read into something that just isn't there. So you are making my point for me. Thanks!

Second, he had sat down with them on three other occasions. Obviously his gut also told him that he might not have been doing the right thing, why else would he post it here asking us if he did? You should know me by now, I don't do sugar coating very well.

Third, I never called him a failure. Just because you fail in one situation, does constitute a failure. I said that he failed this test. singular, not plural. He failed the test, is not the same as he is a failure.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

trctimberworks said:


> Yes, I failed in several areas. I am not trying to hide that. This is why I posted the question. I like to learn from my mistakes. But why go meet with him again to call his job off? I already felt like I spent way more time than needed trying to get the job. I could be doing so many other things with those 1-2 hours of my time. Yes, maybe just maybe I could have worked things out with him, but at the time my head was not in it. I feel it was best to send a courteous e-mail and be done with it. Move on; work on getting the next job!


Please don't take my posts as personal attacks. As some have pointed out they could have been taken that way. I appreciate you admission of wrong doing.

As I stated in earlier posts, I just believe, from the information that you provided, you should have manned up and went to the last meeting. Not to call anything off, but to explain to them that when you agreed to a free estimate, all of these visits were not what you had in mind. Apologize for the confusion and misunderstanding. It is far harder for anyone to tell you no in person that it is via e-mail. It's also far harder to ask someone for money face to face than it is over e-mail. And that is why I said I thought it was cowardice. Not that you are a coward. Forgive me if that's how it came across.


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## skcolo (May 16, 2009)

Live with the decisions you make in life. No second guessing. Just know that sometimes you will make good decisions and sometimes you will make bad decisions. Know that in advance.

I've taken jobs from people that I knew were going to be a PITA, and in the end, they turned into good friends. And visa-versa.

You made that decision because at that moment in time, it seemed like the best decision, therefore it was the best decision.


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## oaks renovation (Jun 16, 2007)

I was doing work for a bank that had properties in trust and had to deal with alot of red tape along with the individual people regulating each trust. The money was okay, but the pita of going back 2, 3 and sometimes four times to try and land the work just got to be too much. I finally told them thanks, but no thanks. It was kinda hard to do because it was steady work. Sometimes you just have to make your best decision and run with it. Two tears in a bucket and f**k it.


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## trctimberworks (Apr 28, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Please don't take my posts as personal attacks. As some have pointed out they could have been taken that way. I appreciate you admission of wrong doing.
> 
> As I stated in earlier posts, I just believe, from the information that you provided, you should have manned up and went to the last meeting. Not to call anything off, but to explain to them that when you agreed to a free estimate, all of these visits were not what you had in mind. Apologize for the confusion and misunderstanding. It is far harder for anyone to tell you no in person that it is via e-mail. It's also far harder to ask someone for money face to face than it is over e-mail. And that is why I said I thought it was cowardice. Not that you are a coward. Forgive me if that's how it came across.


Hey, don't worry. I am not taking it personally. I appreciate your advice. I came here to learn, and boy, am I ever. I now have a whole new arsenal of ideas for the next round!


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

If you don't charge for the plans, etc then add it into the bid. Just don't give them the plans to review. Better to be upfront about the cost, though.

Regarding the cowardice comment, shouldn't we choose our words a bit more carefully? It's a mistake, not a character flaw.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> If you don't charge for the plans, etc then add it into the bid. Just don't give them the plans to review. Better to be upfront about the cost, though.
> 
> Regarding the cowardice comment, shouldn't we choose our words a bit more carefully? It's a mistake, not a character flaw.


Right, that is why I chose that word and not to call him a coward. He is not a coward, just chose to do something that I considered to be cowardice, which simply means taking the easy way out and not have to confront someone face to face.

But seeing that I did apologize and recognize it's implication, publicly, I think we can move on from it.

Example: Choosing to do something stupid does not make you stupid. If I told that person what was a stupid thing to do, I did not call them stupid. Again, people are reading way too much into the comment.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Right, that is why I chose that word and not to call him a coward. He is not a coward, just chose to do something that I considered to be cowardice, which simply means taking the easy way out and not have to confront someone face to face.
> 
> But seeing that I did apologize and recognize it's implication, publicly, I think we can move on from it.
> 
> Example: Choosing to do something stupid does not make you stupid. If I told that person what was a stupid thing to do, I did not call them stupid. Again, people are reading way too much into the comment.


My mom always used to take the time to emphasize that fact what I screwed up.

She'd say "Matt your not stupid, but what you did was"

My dad would fire back "No, he's stupid" :laughing:

I knew that was just his sense of humor and way to lighten up the conversation, but if I didn't I could see myself having more emotional issues as an adult than I already do :blink:


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## shesbros (Jun 15, 2005)

We do small remodels and subcontracting work our biggest jobs run under 75K and average around 15-20. Our initial consultation is free as is a "preliminary cost estimate" this takes me about a half hour to an hour and give them a basic Idea of what we can do for them. After that the fees start anywhere from 150.00 on up. 

I think you could have handled things a little better in the beginning but if this quote is accurate "I refuse to entertain the idea of paying you for any pre-contract work. This should be worked into your overhead and contract". Then you made the correct decision. To me this is the reddest of red flags. This is not a statement its an assertion and a reflection of how he sees you and your business.

"I refuse to entertain the idea of paying you for any pre-contract work." This isn't poorly worded, its offensive. What happens when there is a change order? What if there there is a pre existing condition that an inspector wants changed/addressed? Is the next statement or email form him "I refuse to entertain the Idea of paying you for something that I feel should have been seen during your initial walk through and therefore should have been included in your contract?"

You could have handled things a little better but when you tried to begin to put the breaks on the perpetual design cycle and take control of what was happening he called you a moron.

Sometimes the jobs you don't take are just as important as the ones you do. It would be my feeling that you would never get out of that basement.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Right, that is why I chose that word and not to call him a coward. He is not a coward, just chose to do something that I considered to be cowardice, which simply means taking the easy way out and not have to confront someone face to face.
> 
> But seeing that I did apologize and recognize it's implication, publicly, I think we can move on from it.
> 
> Example: Choosing to do something stupid does not make you stupid. If I told that person what was a stupid thing to do, I did not call them stupid. Again, people are reading way too much into the comment.


Momma always said “Stupid is as Stupid does”. :laughing:


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