# Pavers $8.50 SQ.FT.



## Driftwood

I see an add here for Mr. Pavers $8.50 Sq Ft. , That seems cheap !!

Does that include breaking up 5" concrete drive and hauling away ?


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## Greg Di

Call them and ask?


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## greg24k

You a GC and you don't know? :whistling


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## Driftwood

DON'T BE A HORSES A$$ ! I do them all the time ! :whistling

48 YEARS IN BUSS HONEY!


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## concretemasonry

As a G.C., why worry about the price if they are required because you should have a opportunity to include in the bid or add as a change order? For that price in your area only a fool would remove a 5" slab and try to dispose of it in your area in addition to a new base , compaction, pavers, vibrating, clean up and making a profit.


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## greg24k

Driftwood said:


> DON'T BE A HORSES A$$ ! I do them all the time ! :whistling
> 
> 48 YEARS IN BUSS HONEY!


:laughing: @ the honey...48 years in the bay area will do that to you :whistling:laughing:


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## Driftwood

concretemasonry said:


> As a G.C., why worry about the price if they are required because you should have a opportunity ti include in the bid or add as a change order? For that price in your area only a fool would remove a 5" slab and try to dispose of it in your area in addition to a new base , compaction, pavers, vibrating, clean up and making a profit.


 I have a lot of Equept ,and don't sub. Much I have a 16,000 Backhoe and 18 Yd. dump. I just got about 3500 sq ft of pavers for nothing. They are in great shape . They were taken up from a mall remodel.


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## griz

greg24k said:


> :laughing: @ the honey...48 years in the bay area will do that to you :whistling:laughing:


That's a funny.:thumbsup::laughing::laughing::notworthy


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## Driftwood

griz said:


> That's a funny.:thumbsup::laughing::laughing::notworthy


 More like semi retarded :whistling


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## Metro M & L

No, it was funny.:whistling


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## wlscape

In North Texas, going rate is 12-14 sq ft with removal


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## Driftwood

wlscape said:


> In North Texas, going rate is 12-14 sq ft with removal


 Nice to see a grown Up Here ,every now and then!:thumbsup:


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## Redneckpete

I can make money at $8.50 a square foot based on a thousand square foot driveway.
They get an entry level brick. Topsoil and seed supplied along the edges, but no sod repair.

Removal of concrete, dig for base $ 1650

8 ton excavator x 6 hrs $ 800
Float charge $ 100
Tandem dump x 6 hrs $ 480
Laborer x 6 hrs $ 180
Concrete disposal $ 60
Clean fill disposal $ 30

Install granular base $ 1810

Tandem dump x 6 hrs $ 480
Float charge $ 100
Skidsteer x 6 hrs $ 480
Granular A or B $ 420
Laborer x 6 hrs $ 180
Diesel plate $ 100
Jumping jack $ 50

Screed driveway and install interlocking brick $ 4980

Interlocking brick $ 2500
Skidsteer x 6 hrs $ 480
SA dump x 6 hrs $ 360
Laborer x 30 hrs $ 900
Screenings $ 150
Sand $ 100
Concrete saw w blade $ 60
Topsoil $ 150
Seed $ 20
Pave edge $ 200
Plate tamper $ 60

Total price $ 8440 or $ 8.44 per square foot. Why can’t you make money at that?

Pete


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## concretemasonry

Those look like nice and neat "rounded off" square foot/hourly costs.

As a contractor, you you have many other costs (including profit/overhead).

Are you talking about a quality paver installation or just a quick driveway job with no guarantee beyond a couple of years?

How about real base preparation and compaction? Entry level clay brick of real interlocking concrete pavers?

Interlocking concrete pavers are great value if done right. There are many certified installers around. Even in in India and Indonesia, I have seen huge paving jobs ( 2 -10 acres) done with low cost labor and good management/supervision to meet tight specs, but the cost are higher in the end to a customer than what you claim. - If you can do it cheaper then more power to you.


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## Redneckpete

concretemasonry said:


> Those look like nice and neat "rounded off" square foot/hourly costs.
> 
> As a contractor, you you have many other costs (including profit/overhead).
> 
> Are you talking about a quality paver installation or just a quick driveway job with no guarantee beyond a couple of years?
> 
> How about real base preparation and compaction? Entry level clay brick of real interlocking concrete pavers?
> 
> Interlocking concrete pavers are great value if done right. There are many certified installers around. Even in in India and Indonesia, I have seen huge paving jobs ( 2 -10 acres) done with low cost labor and good management/supervision to meet tight specs, but the cost are higher in the end to a customer than what you claim. - If you can do it cheaper then more power to you.


I understand you don't agree with my end figure, but I don't understand why not. I can easily remove a 1000 sq foot driveway with a 8 ton excavator in 6 hrs. I can easily make money, including profit and overhead running that machine at $130 an hour.

The question is not the quality of the job as you suggest. The question is exactly how much do you expect to be paid to run the above machine, and why the heck can't you make money running it for $130 an hour. Alternatively, why are your machine operators so poor that they can't remove two dump truck loads of concrete in six hours with an 8 ton excavator?

Pete


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## Tscarborough

Because it started raining like a ***** at 10:00AM, 2 hours after your excavator got there, and didn't stop for a week. And then the paver delivery was delayed by a week, and 2 of your laborers called in drunk on Monday, and then the damn bobcat had a flat, and the HO decided they didn't like the color of the pavers after all.


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## Redneckpete

Tscarborough said:


> Because it started raining like a ***** at 10:00AM, 2 hours after your excavator got there, and didn't stop for a week. And then the paver delivery was delayed by a week, and 2 of your laborers called in drunk on Monday, and then the damn bobcat had a flat, and the HO decided they didn't like the color of the pavers after all.


Excavator arrived at 8:00AM hauled by the tandem dump, which paid for the float charge and was already onsite ready to remove the concrete. When it started raining at 10:00AM I was really happy I paid the extra for the cab (with heat and AC) on the machine. I closed the door, turned on the wiper and turned down the radio. I was thankful that I was working on a job right off the asphalt. I decided to work with the weather, and just removed the concrete, leaving the existing gravel in place for reuse when I excavated to ensure sufficient base.

On the way home I hit the local burger joint and buy my laborer the best burger in the place and a huge plate of fries. He warms up (because he just spent four hours buzzing re-rod in the rain) and decides his boss is pretty decent after all. He shows up on Monday, chipper and ready to pound down some brick.

Pavers are delivered on time because I always pay my bills on time. Although there were not enough pavers to go around, I got first crack at the available stock, because although I drive a hard bargain, I pay the bill the day I get it. Supplier know this, and isn't stupid enough to ship the available pavers to someone that he isn't really sure will pay him. The flat on the bobcat sucked, but was easily fixed. The single axle dump that arrived with the screening is air brakes and carries an air hose at all times. The tire was pumped up and will easily last the day.

Oh... The color of pavers. Customer picked the color of paver and signed for it when they signed the contract. They can change the color, but restocking and labor charges apply. Sucks to be them.

What else do you want to know?

Pete


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## Tscarborough

The color of the sky in your world?


































It was a joke, Son, if you can make money at it, go for it.


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## Redneckpete

Do you need a picture?

Seriously. I could easily run with the numbers I posted. I'd make a good buck at it too. I've been doing it for 12 years, and trust me, I'm certainly not getting poorer.

Pete


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## NICKPAUS

I sold my dump druck a few months back. I would bid pavers as low as $7 a foot done right. Going rate here is $5 on craigslist. Some fat dude Dan floods the LA craigslist like no other. 8 years ago I could not find anyone under $20 a sq ft. People are working for free as my cost was $5 a ft with skidsteer access. Maybe $4.25 no vehicle traffic. No problems


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## fakie99

NICKPAUS said:


> I sold my dump druck a few months back. I would bid pavers as low as $7 a foot done right. Going rate here is $5 on craigslist. Some fat dude Dan floods the LA craigslist like no other. 8 years ago I could not find anyone under $20 a sq ft. People are working for free as my cost was $5 a ft with skidsteer access. Maybe $4.25 no vehicle traffic. No problems



hold on here. in michigan, a very standard paver from a reputable mfr (not home depot) goes for $2.75 my cost. aggregate, fabric, bedding sand, edge restraints and poly sand add another $1.00 per foot. that brings you to 3.75 in materials cost ONLY. now add the design and labor time. and disposal. and overhead. oh, and a profit margin, meager as it may be these days!

how in the holy hell can anyone expecting to stay in business charge $7 a foot under those conditions?! (unless we're talking about 20,000 sq ft). 

unless someone is uninsured, un equipmented, and paying their employees with donuts and witty remarks, these #s dont make any sense. 

some of these contractors' lack of business accounting knowledge is shameful.


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## NICKPAUS

Cost of pavers here $1.07-1..23. Base is $4-7 a ton and sand is $20 a half yard. My first paver job 5 years ago I could not find anyone for under $20 a sq ft. Now the big chains here are advertising on this site for $7 a foot installed. Genesis pavers and system pavers to name a few. All my equipment for pavers just sits. I could put out adds for $6 a foot and probably get no hits. Check los angeles craigslist for yourself. F***ing Dan is the guy's name flooding it. He will sell you pavers for $1.25 or install for $5. And he is not the only one on there. :furious:


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## Redneckpete

NICKPAUS said:


> Check los angeles craigslist for yourself. F***ing Dan is the guy's name flooding it. He will sell you pavers for $1.25 or install for $5. And he is not the only one on there. :furious:


Personally, I'd follow Dan the man around for a while and watch him complete a job. If he's not making money he'll flame out within a year. If he can make money at $5 a square, you should want to know how he's doing it. There is no point in cursing the guy and letting your equipment sit idle. Figure out how he's doing it and match his pricing.

I can do a tearout an install at $8.50 a square, and that includes $2.50 a square for brick. If I could buy brick for $1.25, I could tearout, supply and install it for $7.25.

If I laid on an existing base without taking responsibility for the base (which I would expect is Dan the man's case) I could easily supply and install a $1.25 brick for $5.00. You can bang down a 1000 square foot driveway in two days with two guys and make over $3500 in labor! How much do you need to make?

Pete


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## NICKPAUS

Redneckpete said:


> Personally, I'd follow Dan the man around for a while and watch him complete a job. If he's not making money he'll flame out within a year. If he can make money at $5 a square, you should want to know how he's doing it. There is no point in cursing the guy and letting your equipment sit idle. Figure out how he's doing it and match his pricing.
> 
> I can do a tearout an install at $8.50 a square, and that includes $2.50 a square for brick. If I could buy brick for $1.25, I could tearout, supply and install it for $7.25.
> 
> If I laid on an existing base without taking responsibility for the base (which I would expect is Dan the man's case) I could easily supply and install a $1.25 brick for $5.00. You can bang down a 1000 square foot driveway in two days with two guys and make over $3500 in labor! How much do you need to make?
> 
> Pete


 Just went and checked CL his ad popped up first under pavers. He has them listed at $1.57. He installs 4" of base which is cheap but insurance and registration is not. Not worth doing at $5 a ft as if you have any machine or equipment failure you would be in the hole. At that rate you are making wage and nothing on your tools and equipment not even covering wear and tear. My dump truck was $1200 a year registration and $800 liability insurace.


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## Redneckpete

NICKPAUS said:


> My dump truck was $1200 a year registration and $800 liability insurace.


Does your dump truck make any money to offset those costs while it is sitting in your yard watching dan the man's dump truck going to work?

Pete


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## NICKPAUS

Redneckpete said:


> Does your dump truck make any money to offset those costs while it is sitting in your yard watching dan the man's dump truck going to work?
> 
> Sold the truck 3 months ago for $15K paid $10K 2 years ago. Finished up a basement and put it up for sale. I dont only install pavers so no need to sit around and watch dan. Was going to have a strictly paver crew but that was when you could not find anyone to install for less than $15 a ft and all legit guy's were at $20 a ft. Times sure have changed. Only concrete trucks selling here are for scrap metal. Just shows how effed are economy is.


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## scrapecc

Just because Dan is making money doesn't mean its worth while doing. 

I could work my butt off and charge those prices. But I could also work at Mcdonalds, avoid the headache of what owning a business entails and screw off all day at a slack ass job. Either way, I am making money. Where do I want to be though. 

I myself avoid the cutthroat bid war jobs like a ugly fat chick. I just want no part of it.


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## SSC

im not a paver installer but being a buisness owner i am always looking around at jobs in the area.. last year i saw numerous jobs going on where the boss dropped off 2-3 illegals with a shovel and a wheelbarrow, had a container dropped off and they dug out all day. probally cost the boss $200 in labor. concrete demo just hand them a jackhammer.
very lil equipment was used if any.


why dont you follow dan see if he's legit (licensed, illegals working, permits if need be etc.). if he's not playing by the rules that most of us are. . . 
take him out of the game:w00t:


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## NICKPAUS

why dont you follow dan see if he's legit (licensed, illegals working, permits if need be etc.). if he's not playing by the rules that most of us are. . . 
take him out of the game:w00t:[/quote]


Tried that approach before dan was noticed. Lost 10 jobs in a row where I knew it was not feasible below my price (Own more equipment than you can imagine no payments) Went back and checked on them and ALL 10 had Unlicensed hacks. filled out the SWIFT forms and called them to follow up. They told me unless there was around 100+ employees was not worth there time. Tried the local building dept and city police. No one gave a ****. Torrance wants to rape you if you are a contractor on fees but if you are not actually licensed you can do whatever you want. from working your business out the garage to whatever. As soon as your licensed you are at their mercy.:furious:


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## SSC

NICKPAUS said:


> why dont you follow dan see if he's legit (licensed, illegals working, permits if need be etc.). if he's not playing by the rules that most of us are. . .
> take him out of the game:w00t:


 
Tried that approach before dan was noticed. Lost 10 jobs in a row where I knew it was not feasible below my price (Own more equipment than you can imagine no payments) Went back and checked on them and ALL 10 had Unlicensed hacks. filled out the SWIFT forms and called them to follow up. They told me unless there was around 100+ employees was not worth there time. Tried the local building dept and city police. No one gave a ****. Torrance wants to rape you if you are a contractor on fees but if you are not actually licensed you can do whatever you want. from working your business out the garage to whatever. As soon as your licensed you are at their mercy.:furious:[/quote]

. . . And they wonder why there are so many out there who dont play by the rules:blink:. Its easier and cheaper to not be legit. On Long Island NY if they catch you they can impound your vehicle with all the tools, and the lil incorporated villages _do _have people who supposedly go and look for unlicensed contractors. Do they not do that where you are? what are the consequences of not being licensed and hiring illegals?

P.S. if a contractor goes and picks up a day laborer from home depot, and the cops (who hang out in this area for this reason) catch him they can arrest and fine the contractor but the illegals go free! WTF this world is doomed


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## NICKPAUS

. . . And they wonder why there are so many out there who dont play by the rules:blink:. Its easier and cheaper to not be legit. On Long Island NY if they catch you they can impound your vehicle with all the tools, and the lil incorporated villages _do _have people who supposedly go and look for unlicensed contractors. Do they not do that where you are? what are the consequences of not being licensed and hiring illegals? 

They do only in certain area's like Redondo Beach there is a guy who stops by jobs. But only big new construction jobs.Checks for workers comp and to see if your licensed. Not sure of consequences but the city allows all the day laborers legal or not they dont check to congregate at a specific park and they have fliers and ads everywhere promoting workers available.

P.S. if a contractor goes and picks up a day laborer from home depot, and the cops (who hang out in this area for this reason) catch him they can arrest and fine the contractor but the illegals go free! WTF this world is doomed[/quote]
Yes here they are on every corner. The police cant ask status. I drove through Wilmington yesterday and it was just like Tijuana 10 years ago. California in 10 years you wont see a true white person anymore.


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## Redneckpete

Everyone is complaining about those that work cheaper then they do. It brings me back to the question, how much do you need/want to make?

Working at the prices that have been discussed you can make $100 per hr for machine work and $50 per hr for labor. What do you expect to make??!!

Pete


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## NICKPAUS

Redneckpete said:


> Everyone is complaining about those that work cheaper then they do. It brings me back to the question, how much do you need/want to make?
> 
> Working at the prices that have been discussed you can make $100 per hr for machine work and $50 per hr for labor. What do you expect to make??!!
> 
> Pete


 $5 a sq ft tear out 4" concrete with steel install 4-6" base, sand and pavers + seal. How much you make Pete? 


I need to make $250 a day to cover my overhead. Lately average $500 a day before overhead fuel and taxes so I make about $200 a day. 12 hour days owning $200,000+ in tools feel like a WHORE. Just trying to ride out the storm.....


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## Redneckpete

I want to make a thousand bucks a day with myself and a couple laborers. I do it all day long. I've posted numbers, go back in the thread and read them.

It's no wonder your county is in depression. I just dropped 35G to buy a truck in Idaho and flew an A licensed driver (Canada license) out to pick it up. He's stranded 90 miles north of Salt Lake City. Your stupid government recognizes our Canadian commercial drivers licenses, but won't let him cross the state line because he is a few months short of his 21st birthday.

I thought America was the land of the free. It's pretty pathetic when socialist Canada shows you up.

Pete


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## scrapecc

I think you may be unrealistic on some things Pete. You gotta have an oh s#!t plan. You can have the newest nicest equipment on the planet. Still doesn't make it 100% reliable. 

For instance. Yesterday I had a welder gas regulator throwing a fit on me. Wouldn't let gas through, thus couldn't weld. An hour and a half to fix that one. Its only a 2 month old top of the line machine. Things happen.

During snow removal a couple weeks ago. I had a hose on my skid steer spring a leak. Then short while later a different hose blew out completely. This machine only has 1300 hours and is maintained well. 

I think in a perfect world where everything flows smoothly your prespective may work. But unfortunately most of us don't live in a perfect world. 

And by the way, why the hell would you rent a 16,000 pound excavator to tear out a driveway? I would think a skid steer would walk that thing for a driveway tear out.


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## concretemasonry

Has anybody thought that installing pavers properly is not that difficult when they are very commonly in the sophisticated and costly markets like Europe countries like england and Germany, etc. (a century or two of experience) and also on huge projects of 20 to 40 acres on heavy duty loadings (10,000#+ wheel loads) in SE Asia because they work better than other pavements.

On small jobs, it seems that things lumped into "overhead" skew the cost history and that warps the thinking on larger projects. - Maybe a better accountant can provide some sense instead of minimizing labor costs using old traditions and historic costs.

I could be wrong, but there are better ways of doing things on bigger jobs that create the real profits. Usually a good supplier will have the knowledge and ability to make what is needed. - Automated setting ( 1 square yard/meter at a time) have been around for many years and there are mobile continuous placing machines that take bulk pavers and create a continuous mat of pavers for streets and airport taxiways.


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## scrapecc

Anything in bulk you can make more affordable Dick. We know that. Are you saying pavers are superior to concrete? The easy I read that it came off as a blanket statement.

South east asia doesn't have harsh winters, and the last time I checked the autobaun wasnt paved with pavers either. 

Im not saying they are a bad product. Our can't be done cost effective. But how does the cost compare to paving with concrete?


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## concretemasonry

I made a general statement based on projects where cost was the factor and avoided details and the nit-picking localized opinions based on small applications.

The large installations are taxiways in Australia for 747 loadings and the more critical performance and site specific applications are generally in SE Asia harbors and the materials selected were based on the soil conditions and suitability for the traffic. Concrete was ruled out because of the soil and base needs and the the fact that you cannot run a 4 wheel straddle loader with a $1,000,000 electronic gear payload in a container over a roadway with differential settlement and joint problems. An interlocking paving (100 mm pavers - about 4") system was an obvious and proven answer and asphalt is also possible. When you are doing 20 to 40 acres of area, considerable research and design of options is always done. In the sites I mentioned, pavers were cheaper, but the installation method was left up to the contractors.

Some of the paver sites were hand set and some were set by mechanical means a square meter(about 1.1 square yards) at a time using a lift/setter that did a layer at time off the pallet. None were done by the continuous paving machines designed to set pavers by the lane for streets that are used in Europe.

No one said they(pavers) are better, but there applications where the work if the contractor has the knowledge to apply them to a specific project and loads. Unforunately, some people just think they are only good for the provincial patio.


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## scrapecc

Ok, it was the way I read it. I was like huh?


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## scrapecc

And yeah I can agree with that. Different types of road materials were better suited for different applications. 

Kind of like the space shuttle crawler and its gravel road way.


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