# A Nation That’s Losing Its Toolbox



## carolinahandyma (Jan 6, 2006)

Just sharing a great article I read on the impacts of reduced American craftsmanship.

A Nation That’s Losing Its Toolbox 

THE scene inside the Home Depot on Weyman Avenue here would give the old-time American craftsman pause.

In Aisle 34 is precut vinyl flooring, the glue already in place. In Aisle 26 are prefab windows. Stacked near the checkout counters, and as colorful as a Fisher-Price toy, is a not-so-serious-looking power tool: a battery-operated saw-and-drill combo. And if you don’t want to be your own handyman, head to Aisle 23 or Aisle 35, where a help desk will arrange for an installer. 

It’s all very handy stuff, I guess, a convenient way to be a do-it-yourselfer without being all that good with tools. But at a time when the American factory seems to be a shrinking presence, and when good manufacturing jobs have vanished, perhaps never to return, there is something deeply troubling about this dilution of American craftsmanship.

This isn’t a lament — or not merely a lament — for bygone times. It’s a social and cultural issue, as well as an economic one. The Home Depot approach to craftsmanship — simplify it, dumb it down, hire a contractor — is one signal that mastering tools and working with one’s hands is receding in America as a hobby, as a valued skill, as a cultural influence that shaped thinking and behavior in vast sections of the country.


Read more at http://nyti.ms/OgAjDN


----------



## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

More work for us that want to be a craftsman. My thought is that marketing by big box stores is just that. Leading people onto the path of doing it for themselves weather they can do it or not, because to them its all about profits. Where for the people who like to create things, its all about building.


----------



## GRB (Feb 23, 2009)

Interesting article, though I wish it had delved further as to _why_ the trades are being abandoned in record numbers by young people in this country. 

I also wish it had examined more closely the hand Home Depot & other box stores have had in undermining small entrepreneurs in the trades, both on the supplier & skilled labor sides. 

"We have met the enemy and he is us."


----------



## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

I think one reason the trades are being pushed down the tubes is this. Schools make thier money off of students. The more kids they can bring in thier doors the more cash they make. Deep down I think they could careless if the student gets ajob or not. Look at all the collage educated people who cant find a job.

They push the thought that you must have a piece of paper that says you are schooled. We have one unv. that in the last 20 years has a major building built every single year on campus. The rates are very high to go there and the marketing they put on in the media is the best I have seen. Of course its taxpayers money funding all of this. Along with huge student loans that take many years to pay back.


----------



## GRB (Feb 23, 2009)

Gary H said:


> More work for us that want to be a craftsman. My thought is that marketing by big box stores is just that. Leading people onto the path of doing it for themselves weather they can do it or not, because to them its all about profits. Where for the people who like to create things, its all about building.


The other problem is that HD operates under the guise of having skilled tradespeople on their staff, yet many wouldn't know one end of a screwdriver from another. Many (most?) are not equipped to dispense advice, yet that doesn't stop them. You're dead on, Gary - it's all about marketing spin to HD. 

In addition, HD & other stores that offer installed sales are *competitors* to most of us, but compete using a different set of rules - ones that dictate what is paid, as well as terms & conditions regarding payment, warranty, etc. 

I've said it before & received heat for it, but I'm still convinced Home Depot is the epitome of what is wrong with the construction industry. 

The good news is we can beat them, but it will take a concerted effort on the part of all the skilled trades guys to abandon them & focus on consumer education, service, & competence. Once savvy consumers are made aware of the difference, the ones who value the above efforts will also abandon Home Depot. 

Vote with your wallets, guys.


----------



## GRB (Feb 23, 2009)

Gary H said:


> I think one reason the trades are being pushed down the tubes is this. Schools make thier money off of students. The more kids they can bring in thier doors the more cash they make. Deep down I think they could careless if the student gets ajob or not. Look at all the collage educated people who cant find a job.
> 
> They push the thought that you must have a piece of paper that says you are schooled. We have one unv. that in the last 20 years has a major building built every single year on campus. The rates are very high to go there and the marketing they put on in the media is the best I have seen. Of course its taxpayers money funding all of this. Along with huge student loans that take many years to pay back.


Which is why one could make the argument the guild system is so vital in society. No one should have to assume massive amounts of debt to learn a skill, yet it's common - even expected in this country. 

We need to look closely at guild systems in Europe & try to emulate them here. This country needs skilled tradesmen. It also needs to redevelop an appreciation for them, but it won't happen if all of us don't try to operate at the top of our game.


----------



## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

I see what you mean Greg on the big box stores. I live east of town that has a pop. of less then 34,000 people. Two box stores, wallmart and meijers. You can go into those stores at any time and they are packed with buyers. All day long into the night. Its amazing how they can draw people out into the store and ge them to buy stuff they do not need or how to use. 

I used to see contractors working as store employees. Not because they want to help, but because they could not make it as contractors. I wonder if they pull in work for themselves?


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

why does everything have to be so hard?


----------



## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Don't get me started.


----------



## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

GRB said:


> Which is why one could make the argument the guild system is so vital in society. No one should have to assume massive amounts of debt to learn a skill, yet it's common - even expected in this country.
> .


Expected is right on. Next week I am doing a job for a school teacher. She was telling me, that to keep her job she needed a masters degree. Been paying on that loan for 12 years now. Her son could not find a job, so he went back to school and is now deeply in debt for a piece of paper.I am like WTF? And they seem to be OK with it


----------



## GRB (Feb 23, 2009)

I know, Gary. It's a tough situation, especially in small towns. 

The M.O. of most of the box stores is the same: Go into an area, offer cut rate prices subsidized by the parent company, then gradually squeeze out the smaller competition who can't don't have the resources to operate at a loss. Once the competitors are gone, jack up prices, all the while telling customers what bargains they're getting. 

Along the way, those folks affected by the stores actions often have little choice but to join forces with the very company that put them into the position they're in.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

it's the American way


----------



## GRB (Feb 23, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> why does everything have to be so hard?


Sue & I were talking about this & we realized it's only hard for those who care & pay attention. If you bury your head in the sand, it's easy to believe everything is fine. 

Having a conscience is hell. :sad:


----------



## GRB (Feb 23, 2009)

Kent Whitten said:


> Don't get me started.


Oh, come on, Kent. We have. :laughing:


----------



## GRB (Feb 23, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> it's the American way


You have a typo there - you capitalized the A in "American". 

It will throw folks off who are used to your style, Strublemaker. :whistling


----------



## gbruzze1 (Dec 17, 2008)

That home depot is 1/4 mile from my house


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i'm always evolving greG,just sometimes i gotta remember to sloW it down a little and let the rest of yous catch up:sad:


----------



## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

For some reason this paragraph just sticks in my craw:



> As for craftsmanship itself, the issue is how to preserve it as a valued skill in the general population. Ms. Milkman, the sociologist, argues that American craftsmanship isn’t disappearing as quickly as some would argue — that it has instead shifted to immigrants. “Pride in craft, it is alive in the immigrant world,” she says.


 Seems to me there may be an overlap of reasoning here that hasn't been considered.That being , the real skilled American craftsmen have shifted their focus to more specialized segments of the trades to stay competitive with the companies that use immigrant labor to cut pricing.
If I hire legitimate help,pay all their benefits,taxes,insurance,and fair wages,then I need to work exclusively for a segment of the population that is very limited,and
only represents a small portion of the total industry.
If I hire/use immigrant labor,pay much lower wages,and bang out job after job,then I could compete with in the other world of HO's that are concerned about getting things done at much lower pricing.
This is where the bulk of the work is,so the presence of immigrant labor has become the "norm"on these job sites.

To me the statement: “Pride in craft, it is alive in the immigrant world,” 
is an interpretation,derived from the increasing number of immigrants in the trades because of their willingness to work for less,not their actual abilities.
I'm not saying they're all unskilled,just that some are hired on cost alone.

As the industry becomes flooded with "cheap labor"there will be fewer younger Americans who could support a family by entering the trades.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

John i thought you were a dum siding guy like me?:sad:


----------



## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

I think it is a combination of the big box stores and the DIY tv shows, that make it appear very easy to do the work we do. After watching some one install a complete kitchen in a few hours, they think they also can do it, and HD will agree they can do it. After all if the guy at HD say it's so it must be true, they're professionals or at least marketed themselves as professionals.

If they would realistically show how hard the work is and how much skill is involved it would be much better for the trades.

In NJ the only people who don't have to register for a Home Improvement Contractor # are companies with a gross revenue of $50 mil. What difference does the gross make? A crappy job is still a crappy job.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

yea but in N.J all they want is your 90 bucks for the license so what does it matter?


----------



## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

Tom Struble said:


> John i thought you were a dum siding guy like me?:sad:


 Probably dummer!:thumbsup:


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

ah..no i'm dummer:w00t:


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I don't get the article at all. To make stuff, you traditionally need certain crafts. The people who practice those crafts are craftsmen. Make less stuff, and you need fewer craftsmen. Improve production methods and you need fewer craftsmen. Face it, almost anyone who is trying to make a decent profit tries to get rid of as much skilled hand work as possible.

There have always been DIYers out there, I don't think HD or any other place changed that. My brother-in-law has built 2 of his own houses (with the exception of foundation and some of the framing). Very large, very nicely done. He's a DIYer. Part of the reason he built them himself is the difficulty in finding contractors who would do the quality of work he wanted. For instance, all the interior stud faces in his house have been planed to make the framing flat before drywalling. I don't think he could have done a very good job on his cabinets using hand tools, but he bought basically a cabinet shop worth of high quality tools, and they came out as good as any I've seen. 

This just reminds me of BO blaming unemployment on ATMs.


----------



## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

The tv shows are only on the air to SELL people crap. If they showed how things really go in a remodel then no one with a brain would attemt to DiY

I really hate when someone attemts a project and takes pride in it and brags when in reality its a turd. "we painted the entire house in a day" and my brain say well 5 more days and it might look ok. Note: I charge double when i have to fix a DiY'ers mess

As for us craftmen yes we are a dying breed.....we see something and can figure out how and what it could be. Alot of people now are in for instant gratification and are so use to cheap chinease crap they dont know the difference or value in a good product or service by someone who likes and CARES about what they do.


----------



## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

I agree HD has a hand in the downfall but I think contractors are our own worst enemy. I see guys charging 25.00 a sq ft for basement finishing with bathroom, laundry etc... Bathrooms I estimate at 15k they are at 8k. I hear alot that they will do this one at cost and make it up on the other gravy ones....

Some people buy from them and some from me. I have to sell harder, look professional, sell my guys all being american born and owner/operators and true craftsman. 

I buy stuff from HD when its close or I need small stuff like 2 studs, a shut off valve, screws, etc... big lumber orders I buy through my local (only one left) lumber yard and they deliver it cheaper than I can buy and load it myself at creepo. 

I will say the people who are considering creepo or blowes for remodeling are not my target market so I never really consider them my competition. 

I consider guys like Finley my competition and I have won and lost against Mike over the years. 

I changed they way I sell now to know, like, trust and show them I am THE EXPERT and they would be stupid not to hire me. 

I have been steady with work for the last 3 years with pockets of slow times due to rescheduling or materials taking forever to come in. 

I am making more now doing less jobs for better clients and the payoff is starting to happen. I am getting more leads in the areas I want to work in with my target audience. 

I used to get pissed and say How can I bid against the under cutters? There will always be undercutters. I just focus on my target audience and let the cheepos and undercutters have a fun time together. :clap:


----------



## GRB (Feb 23, 2009)

kevjob said:


> I used to get pissed and say How can I bid against the under cutters? There will always be undercutters. I just focus on my target audience and let the cheepos and undercutters have a fun time together. :clap:


This ^^^^^^ is spot on, IMHO. 

Focus on your actions & not those of others. The right customers will seek you out when you establish yourself as an expert in an area/field.


----------



## andyduframe (Mar 14, 2012)

carolinahandyma said:


> The Home Depot approach to craftsmanship — simplify it, dumb it down, hire a contractor — is one signal that mastering tools and working with one’s hands is receding in America as a hobby, as a valued skill, as a cultural influence that shaped thinking and behavior in vast sections of the country.


Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here and argue that in many ways a place like Home Depot _encourages _craftsmanship -- particularly in people who have never picked up a hammer in their entire life. Of course HD's approach to "simplify it, dumb it down" is the very thing that people need to muster the courage to start working with their hands. What's more, when kids see their parents adopting this kind of can-do attitude, it rubs off on them -- further nurturing the "American self-image as a can-do, inventive, we-can-make-anything people" -- something the NYtimes article claims we are fast losing.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

hmm...yea i can see myself agreeing to that now


----------



## andyduframe (Mar 14, 2012)

GRB said:


> The right customers will seek you out when you establish yourself as an expert in an area/field.


So, so true!!
Do the best work and you'll get the best customers (customers who appreciate the value of quality).


----------



## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

GRB said:


> This ^^^^^^ is spot on, IMHO.
> 
> Focus on your actions & not those of others. The right customers will seek you out when you establish yourself as an expert in an area/field.


I don't think the younger people who are trying to decide on going into the trades see it that way, they are looking for easy money. Like being a stockbroker or sports figure making millions.


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

American craftsmanship is alive and well for people who can afford it. And those people do not go to HD.

And the more young kids that go to school and abandon the trades the better it is for us. We will become rare..and then we will become an essentially needed group, able to charge what we wish for our skills.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

I think the kids today see the writing on the wall, and realize there is no future in working for the man in any of the fields. They see journeymen getting paid <$20.00/hr, and in this world of toys and food, that aint going to fly.

It's not like all the kids are getting into software writing or medicine, truth is they, like us grown-ups need guidance. And truth of the matter, for whatever reason, we as a whole, in the trades, have not been very good mentors.


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Leo G said:


> American craftsmanship is alive and well for people who can afford it. And those people do not go to HD.
> 
> And the more young kids that go to school and abandon the trades the better it is for us. We will become rare..and then we will become an essentially needed group, able to charge what we wish for our skills.


I have to agree. Too many people in the labor market makes low wages, too many companies doing the work means low margins - except for the best, who can always charge a premium because customers can't just go get the quality somewhere else.

I think in a way people expect too much of young people. Anyone can be expected to work hard and apply themselves (a lot of them don't). Expecting anyone to be able to fix a house, car, and computer competently these days and have an actual job with its own skill set is asking a little much. Most people would be happy if their kids could manage just having a job. It's a start.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Thing is, what kids fail to see is that if they learn a trade, they should be able to start their own gig, as technology has made it easier for us to do our own thing.


----------



## carolinahandyma (Jan 6, 2006)

Homeowners go to the big box stores because the big box stores spend millions to advertise like crazy to them. And homeowners go to what is most familiar to them.

I think one of the keys to improving craftsmanship is having current craftsmen teach younger people. Like the apprenticeship programs of old. Yes most young people are encouraged to go to college nowadays. But I thinks some young people are going to see more and more recent college grads with a degree but waiting tables and living under a mountain of debt. These youngster may chose another path if one was there for them.

I'd like to see more apprenticeships and guilds like they have in Europe.


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

hdavis said:


> I think in a way people expect too much of young people. Anyone can be expected to work hard and apply themselves (a lot of them don't). Expecting anyone to be able to fix a house, car, and computer competently these days and have an actual job with its own skill set is asking a little much. Most people would be happy if their kids could manage just having a job. It's a start.


I expect them to work hard. To figure out what they want to do for the time being and then setup and do it. I don't want to hear them whining that it's so hard and an 8 hour day is so long. That's why they pay you for it, work sucks. They think it is so hard and inconvenient when they are working for someone else, truth is they are clueless. When you work for yourself you suddenly see how short a 40 hour week really is.


----------



## pegasush (Jan 7, 2008)

Leo, I was going to argue with you about 'work sucks', until I read the rest. 40 hours seems like it never ends, when you are stuck in a cubicle doing work you hate.

Doing work you love, like most here, 40 hours flies. That's one reason for the long days (what's a 40 hour week?).

The other positive about trades is the chance to work for yourself (add another 20 hours to your week). What a fantastic opportunity in life!


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I can say this, if I didn't own my own company, I sure as hell wouldn't be working for any other companies like mine around the area.


----------



## TorontoPlumbers (Jul 23, 2012)

Interesting take, but part of it is really just convenience and innovation are allowing people to do less work to get passable results. This is the way the world works constant innovation. Perhaps back in the day when cars became popular people mourned the loss of riding on horses.


----------



## gbruzze1 (Dec 17, 2008)

VinylHanger said:


> Whenever I do have a 40ish hour work week, I feel guilty. I know there is some customer I should be servicing or preparing for.


Not sure of your situation, but if that were me then the answer would be yes, I am ignoring a customer. My family. I used to work 6-7 days a week and working til 8 pm didn't bother me. 

But now I realize how short and precious life is. I will go on estimates Saturday and Sunday, but as a rule I will absolutely not work on the weekends. I make every effort to start driving home from a job by 5 so I can get home for dinner. 

Obviously I'll do paperwork and make phone calls at night, but that's all done at home. 

I have customers that say "we don't mind if you come at night or on the weekend". I tell them "I do!". 

Some people have to wait. Maybe it pisses some people off, I don't know. But I don't want to be one of those "live to work". And if some customers dobt like that or respect that my family is important, then I don't want to work for them.


----------



## carolinahandyma (Jan 6, 2006)

Here is another recent article related to this discussion titled: on Small Firms Seek Skilled Workers but Can't Find Any from the WSJ.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444840104577549131609451256.html


----------



## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I do as little business with the big box stores as possible, i do most of my business with the local hardware who goes out of their way to keep customers happy and get what they need. This way the money stays here in Town. I find it difficult dealing with customers when they have access to websites for the big box stores. My estimates and invoices get scrutinized on prices because there is such a difference in prices. Obviously i am not going to drive an hour one way to Home Dopey or Blowes when i am driving by the lumber yard to get to the job. I am also going to tack on 10-15% for material mark up and of course no lumber yard/hardware store can compete with a big box store who profits on quantity sales and not quality. 

As far as we contractors becoming a dieing breed, i can agree with that. Society has pushed our youth into thinking they are special and can be whomever they want to be. So now the youth think they can come out of high school and become CEO's or at least have a management position. Apparently to have these positions no longer requires the knowledge and experience of doing the jobs of those below you and that you are managing??? Due to higher costs of living we have found ourselves cutting back on local taxes including school taxes thus shutting down the shop classes or we are seeing the closing of local vocational schools so even the youth who do have the interest of a trade can no longer learn at the local school level. This "leave no child behind act" is a joke IMO. Not all kids are meant to know the extensive education being pushed these days. 

My helper i have now i remember went through my ex-wifes special-ed class. This guy is not stupid by any means but cannot grasp anything out of a book. This guy is a hands on guy so that is how i teach him how to to do what i want him to do if he doesnt already. He is a quick learner and has damn good common sense, full of questions and has been able to grasp everything i have told him and shown him. But in school he was considered "stupid" and barely got through. I would rather have this guy next to me everyday than some punk who thinks he already knows it all and wants to be my boss.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

my family prefers that i also work weekends:sad:


----------



## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Tom Struble said:


> my family prefers that i also work weekends:sad:


I wonder why?:whistling


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

oh and i'm sure your just a joy to be around:whistling:hang:


----------



## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

I tell people that a am the only normal person in my whole family. They laugh until they meet them.


----------

