# Am I Being Unfair to my Boss?



## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

First off, let me start by saying I have a great boss and love working for him. He's taught me a ton, and I'm extremely grateful for that. However, for the last couple of months, I've felt that I'm underpaid. Recently, it's gotten to the point where I'm actually distracted at work, thinking I should be making more. I love my job, and money is the last thing I want to be thinking about during work.

Today after work, I spoke to my boss about this. To say the least, he's being reluctant to give me a raise. 9 months ago, I was hired at $13/hour. I was essentially a labourer and cut guy. Today, thanks mostly to boss's teaching, I have enough knowledge, speed, and ability that my boss is comfortable leaving the jobsite on a daily basis, leaving me in charge of whatever we are doing. Granted, there are some parts of the the house that he still needs to be there for, but for much of the house, I am able to effectively get work done and answer every question our other employee has regarding whatever we are doing.

I looked up postings for other companies looking to hire someone of my ability and experience. Wages in our area range from $16-20/hour. Currently, I'm being paid $14/hour. When I brought this up with my boss, he said he doesn't give raises more than one dollar every six months (two bucks a year). I told him that I thought I should be paid according to ability rather than time spent working for him. I then proceeded to list reasons why I think I'm worth at least $16, none of which my boss objected to. I also asked if he knew any $14/hour workers who could do what I do, to which he had no answer to. His concern seems to be, if I get a $3 increase this year, I'm going to expect a $3 increase next year and so on. I told him once again that I expect to be paid based on ability. If I'm good enough to deserve another 3 dollars next year, I feel I should get it. If I don't progress enough? Tough chit for me, I don't deserve a raise simply for putting in time. Furthermore, it was revealed to me that our "new guy" (who requires constant direction from me) makes only a dollar less per hour than me, which I find slightly offensive, considering how much more work I get done than him, and how many more tasks I'm expected to perform.

We went back and forth for a bit before our builder showed up. I told my boss that we'll talk later, and let him go to discuss what he had to about the house we're currently framing. That's pretty much where we stand now. I'd really appreciate anyone willing to give a 3rd party opinion on the subject. I'm still a fairly young kid (21) who tends to have his arrogant head up his  sometimes, so I'd love to hear some insight from a someone with more experience than me. 

PS. I hope I'm not violating any pricing policies on the site by giving exact figures of wages. If I'm out of line here, please let me know so I can edit the post.


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

thehockeydman said:


> First off, let me start by saying I have a great boss and love working for him. He's taught me a ton, and I'm extremely grateful for that. However, for the last couple of months, I've felt that I'm underpaid. Recently, it's gotten to the point where I'm actually distracted at work, thinking I should be making more. I love my job, and money is the last thing I want to be thinking about during work.
> 
> Today after work, I spoke to my boss about this. To say the least, he's being reluctant to give me a raise. 9 months ago, I was hired at $13/hour. I was essentially a labourer and cut guy. Today, thanks mostly to boss's teaching, I have enough knowledge, speed, and ability that my boss is comfortable leaving the jobsite on a daily basis, leaving me in charge of whatever we are doing. Granted, there are some parts of the the house that he still needs to be there for, but for much of the house, I am able to effectively get work done and answer every question our other employee has regarding whatever we are doing.
> 
> ...


You have every right to ask for a raise based upon the skill set you have acquired. But if you are serious about jumping up it is also going to require a lot more responsibility as you eats **** if stuff goes wrong on site.


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

Morbidzero said:


> You have every right to ask for a raise based upon the skill set you have acquired. But if you are serious about jumping up it is also going to require a lot more responsibility as you eats **** if stuff goes wrong on site.


I want the responsibility. Boss mentioned to me that every now and then, he'll catch something I did wrong an not mention it to me. I told him I _want_ him to mention it to me. I told him I didn't become a good hockey player by having coaches who let imperfections go un-noticed. If I ed up on the rink, I heard about it loud and clear. I told the boss that I'm not a sensitive guy and if he needs to scream at me, by all means do it (FYI, my boss isn't really a screamer). Bottom line is I want to be the single best damn framer in my province. And if that means getting my butt kicked everytime I make even the smallest of mistakes, bring it on.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

You already sound like a disgruntled employee & your boss is aware of it.

To show you that you are not worthy of a raise your boss may start picking apart your work which will further infuriate you.

Look for another job while he is still a good reference.


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

griz said:


> You already sound like a disgruntled employee & your boss is aware of it.
> 
> To show you that you are not worthy of a raise your boss may start picking apart your work which will further infuriate you.
> 
> Look for another job while he is still a good reference.


This certainly wasn't what I was hoping to hear. I should've mentioned that I'm generally extremely happy, motivated, and hard working at work. I have only one issue with my job, which is my current wage. I don't consider myself a disgruntled employee, and would say I have a fantastic relationship with my boss, money aside. I'd hate to leave, since my boss appears to be one of the few framers left in our area who takes pride in his work. I've yet to come across a crew that does better work.

Nonetheless, I appreciate the advice and will take it into consideration.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

This goes on all the time, everywhere. Don't be bitter about your situation, though. This is business and it get's confusing at times, esp. when you like a job. Sometimes it's just time to move on. You do that by lining things up (on your own time), careful consideration, and then doing it. There's always a risk, just like there's a risk for him by not increasing your wage. (Frankly, if you're as good as you seem, he's screwing up and it's not for you to teach him.) So when the time comes, you thank them for the time and experience, etc. and go from there.

I got into this business full time when I was in my late 30's. I knew how to do a lot of things since I was young, since my grandfather was into rental property and I helped fix units on the weekends from very young. One day in my 30's I got out of the white collar b.s. world and took a job with a remodel contractor to test myself and "learn what I didn't know". Turned out I learned some things, but also knew a lot and could get things done. He did a similar thing by starting me very low and said "there's always room to move up". Then reality gets in the way. I could do what 2 guys could, then he started asking me to pick up the other guy, etc. (for no $$), then watch him (for no $$) ....basically wanted a manager for worker wages. So we had our talk, he thought he was generous with a $1 bump...and here I am on my own. Turned out great. 

Good luck for if/when it happens. It's a good thing, and congrats also at the work to invested to put yourself in this position...and at such a youthful age. Nice job. :thumbup:

BTW, your boss is not blind enough to think you leaving is not a possibility. He's just doing what he does. It usually works out without too much hard feelings.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

I haven't bought a beer in Canada in a few years so I don't really know what the exchange rate is like these days, but I know that at 9 months in I was making $14 an hour US. Within a year or two I was at 18.
If you like where your company is taking you and you feel like your boss treats you fairly I might stick around until Christmas time and have this talk again at the New Year. October is not really the best time to be looking for new employment since we all slow down when it cools off. Work your ass off for $14/hr for the next couple months if you have a good working environment(trust me, that's worth the difference between 14 and 16) then revisit it in the new year. Once you've got a year under your belt that will mean something to your boss if he values time logged. It should also mean something to him if he can send you and a helper to a site with no supervision and you get him paid. I would think that would certainly be worth $16 US, if not more.

Good luck man. Sucks fighting for what you're worth.

Edit: Me no spell good.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*Be careful!*



griz said:


> You already sound like a disgruntled employee & your boss is aware of it.
> 
> To show you that you are not worthy of a raise your boss may start picking apart your work which will further infuriate you.
> 
> Look for another job while he is still a good reference.


"The grass always looks greener on the other side"

You can ask the question, but you only know one side of the story and you are telling only your side. There are many things that are as important as the quality and quantity of your work such as your ability to work with others, personality, ability to complete a job that has special circumstances, ability to learn and grow.

One of the most important abilities I like about an employee is one who can get along with everyone, an employee who likes everyone, an employee who is liked by everyone, who is willing to work and help everyone, and especially, an employee who knows how to properly negotiate everything with everyone.

I don't mind an employee asking for a raise and I have no problem with not giving the raise because I have a thousand things I like to consider I usually will give a raise only when I think the time is right. It is easy for an employer to give a raise and very difficult to take the money back when the employer makes a mistake. Therefore, I might want to keep evaluating an employee for several more months before giving the raise he asks for.

Bottom line is! Be patient and wait it out for a while because it is not good to rush your boss because he may just need time.


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

Thanks a lot for the advice guys. Just got off the phone with the boss. He says he's willing to bump me up to $15 right now, but isn't comfortable going any higher as that's already faster than his wage increase schedule. He said he hoped that wouldn't cause me to look for work elsewhere. While I let him know that I'm still not happy at $15, I told him that I also value loyalty. I know that I wouldn't be half the framer I am today without him taking the time to teach me (and no doubt, in some cases early on, losing money on me). So I'll be sticking around and will keep working for him.

I also said that I'm able to see this issue as strictly business, and I hope he is able to do the same. While I still feel I'm worth more than I'm paid, I gave him my word that in no way will it affect my attitude or performance at work. I also told him that I expect the same out of him and his attitude towards me. My boss seemed pretty happy to hear this, and I believe it'll work out. He said that he'll start paying more attention to my progress, and will continue to try and advance my knowledge.

So in the end, while my wage is still an unresolved issue to a point (though now to a lesser degree), for the time being I will keep learning under a great framer, I will keep loving my job, and we'll keep putting up some of the best houses in the province together (something that's worth a lot more to me than $1/hour).

Again, thanks to everyone for the advice.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

Solid, man.

Kick as much ass as you can possibly kick until New Year's(buy a bigger hammer if you have to) then revisit the idea of $16. If you can be at $16/hr at the end of a year, while being the on site supervision, you're looking good. I would take that in a heartbeat at 21.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

From a Boss's perspective:

I hired you when you knew next to nothing (9 months ago)

You worked hard and improved a lot (due to his/my great teaching and patience)

I bumped you up a buck an hour in the first 6 months

I OCCASIONALLY leave you for a couple hours while I run an errand.

You complain that after only 9 months here, your need for money is so great that it is affecting your work.



I think it may be time to move on and experience some hard knocks. I think the boss has held up his end so far. Getting two substantial raises after 9 months of on the job training is very rare indeed. He really values you to do that for you. I am not so sure that you value him the same way.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I worked for 6 years from 5 to 7 bucks an hour, then paid $35000 to a trade school to teach me. Then I got out and was making 15 an hour. It sounds like you're still green to me. I'm not sure of your abilities, or pay rate in you're area, but around here guys with 15 years experience are making 22 to 30 an hour. 
Slow down and learn something.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

At nine months you have only been a breath of fresh air. After three years, the boss will know if he can trust you to safely get a job done on your own or supervising others. At this point he has no idea if you will stick around all winter or not.

You need to cool your jets and keep your head down. I have found that the guys who think they are the next superman are the biggest pain. The guys who show up, shut up and put up are the ones that get fast tracked on money and responsibility. Constantly badgering for a raise is quickly going to get you less money cause he will call the other guys when things are slow.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Problem is you may not find another teacher to finish teaching you what you don't know. Trust me, you don't know a lot at only nine months. Sounds to me like you have yourself a golden opportunity, but your ego is getting in your way.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Some great advice above. I seem to have overlooked the very short time you spent there and in this line of work. Add to that the great opportunity to learn how to do it right, and that you have lots of hours/week. Sounds like a winner for now. 

Great comment about blowing one's own horn too much too early.


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## FramerKMC (Feb 24, 2011)

Warren said:


> From a Boss's perspective:
> 
> I hired you when you knew next to nothing (9 months ago)
> 
> ...


Absolutely, as a employer couldn't agree more


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

Thanks a lot for the feedback guys. I especially appreciate hearing what some of you had to say from a boss's perspective.

With regards to Warren, needing money had nothing to do with wanting the raise. I actually started my own company while in university as a business student, and did fairly well for myself. Though I'm no millionaire, I did make enough to buy myself a nice truck (2008 Chevy) and I have some money in the bank. I got into framing because I didn't see myself enjoying the white collar gig full time for the rest of my life (though I still run my business on the side).

I'm an extremely competitive person by nature, and as I result, love to measure myself. On the job, it drives me to see how fast I can sheet a floor, build walls, fill in trusses, etc while still creating quality work that I can stand back an be proud of. This same competitive drive associates my wage with how much I am worth as a framer. 

Though I feel this trait has served me well for the most part in life, it has gotten me in trouble at times. Perhaps I'm out of line right now, perhaps not.

I still feel I'm worth more than I'm getting paid. That being said, my main takeaway from today's experience is that my focus moving forward needs to be on becoming the absolute best framer I can possibly become. For now, I guess that means finding a new way to define my overall worth as a framer, since I can no longer count on my wage to be it.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

thehockeydman said:


> Thanks a lot for the feedback guys. I especially appreciate hearing what some of you had to say from a boss's perspective.
> 
> With regards to Warren, needing money had nothing to do with wanting the raise. I actually started my own company while in university as a business student, and did fairly well for myself. Though I'm no millionaire, I did make enough to buy myself a nice truck (2008 Chevy) and I have some money in the bank. I got into framing because I didn't see myself enjoying the white collar gig full time for the rest of my life (though I still run my business on the side).
> 
> ...



You said that your thinking about being underpaid was affecting your work. I was there also many years ago. I started with a big crew at 18 and was paid $4.50 an hour. About a buck more than minimum wage. Within two years, I was running a framing crew with little supervision on some easy peasy condos. I had guys under me who were paid slightly more. While it bothered me, it never affected my work. I ended up becoming a part owner of the company eventually, and stuck around for 9 years. 

You gotta pay your dues, no matter what. No way that in 9 months you have paid many dues yet. I have seen hundreds of guys come and go. You seem to have all the attributes that will make you a great framer. Don't let your ego get in the way.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

thehockeydman said:


> *I also said that I'm able to see this issue as strictly business, and I hope he is able to do the same.* While I still feel I'm worth more than I'm paid, I gave him my word that in no way will it affect my attitude or performance at work. *I also told him that I expect the same out of him and his attitude towards me. *.


For your boss it is strictly business. I doubt a 9 month employee talking to me like he was the boss would last too long. Best of luck to you, just don't over estimate your value.


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

Warren said:


> You said that your thinking about being underpaid was affecting your work. I was there also many years ago. I started with a big crew at 18 and was paid $4.50 an hour. About a buck more than minimum wage. Within two years, I was running a framing crew with little supervision on some easy peasy condos. I had guys under me who were paid slightly more. While it bothered me, it never affected my work. I ended up becoming a part owner of the company eventually, and stuck around for 9 years.
> 
> You gotta pay your dues, no matter what. No way that in 9 months you have paid many dues yet. I have seen hundreds of guys come and go. You seem to have all the attributes that will make you a great framer. Don't let your ego get in the way.


Sorry for the confusion. When I said I was distracted at work, I meant on a daily basis the thought of my wage would cross my mind. The fact that something other than work was bugging me regularly during... well... work... was bothering me. That being said, I would never let something like that actually affect the quality of my work. As far as I'm concerned, my work is a reflection of myself. And that's worth a heck of a lot more to me than my wage.

As I said above, when I spoke to my boss on the phone, I promised him that even though I feel I'm worth more than he's paying me, I will never let it affect my work. If money was more important to me than my work, I wouldn't be framing right now.

Thank you again for taking the time give me your advice. It's nice that some guys who have actually accomplished something in the industry are willing to try to set a pig-headed, hyped-up, all-gains-no-brains young guy down the right path :thumbsup:.


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

I think this kid has perspective. Not knowing the skill set you have acquired, nobody pays out of the gate a real wage. With that being said, winter is fast approaching us this far above the equator and there is something to be said about winter work, and who stays on during the slower season. 

I've only worked for three construction companies in twenty plus years. All started at a smaller wage and all bumped me up quickly. Late 90's from $11 an hour roofing to $13 at lunch day one. 

It's not unheard of to get paid what you are worth. As JLS mentioned, paying to learn holds value. 

OP already mentioned he wants to know where he needs to improve, that to me speaks volumes.

That $1.00 equates to $40 a week. Nothing to get too excited about.


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## hillbilly512 (Jul 27, 2012)

I started out on a crew of 5 including my boss and i was making 10 an hour to start. I started in june and by august was at 12 an hour. Were down to me and him now and we do 5 guys work faster and better i get 15 an hour now with extra benefits ( such as free tools and knowledge) i do many day a week by myself and either succeed or he points out where i went wrong and teaches me. I couldnt have a better job than where im at but i know him saying thank you at the end of the day keeps me happy. Plus free tools and raises every time i put in a good week.


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

I had to reply on this without finishing reading all the posts (which I will after I hit reply). 

I've been with my boss for just over 2 years now, also framing, in Toronto, Canada. I started at $18 because I had a couple years experience (broken up, but 2 years nonetheless) and could bust my ass 9 hours a day every day with no complaints. 

My boss does not like to teach. He is arrogant and gives me one word answers or simply a grunt (or just silence) when I ask a question, which leaves me scratching my head and positively puzzled why he won't answer me. And it's not dumb questions. I've learned to not ask dumb questions.

I see it like this. Some of us are fast learners (perhaps like our bosses were) and they see it. They might see themselves in us, when they started out. They know as we learn fast, and is human nature to want more and more. The more and faster we learn, the quicker we will be starting our own businesses, and not only will we be their competition, they will have put us there, and they will be out a hard worker. In some trades, bosses have no qualms training their competition so I have read, so maybe we just get stuck with bosses that think this way.

I really should have moved on by now and found someone that will teach me more, but I appreciate the way my boss builds and I like his attention to detail. You are in a great position to have a boss that teaches you and you get along so well. I would never dare say to my boss what you have said to yours. It would be a great clash of attitudes and the world would implode.

As long as you are learning and you get along, and you enjoy the work, forget what you are making, forget what the other kid is making, and work. I'm 28, you are only 21. You are in a better position that I as long as your boss is a great framer and is teaching you as well as you say he is. If you make more per hour, you are just going to spend more, probably on useless crap you don't need. You don't need the extra money, you need the knowledge. 

Like someone else said already, if you work hard, shut up, and forget about the damn money for a couple years, you will get what's coming to you. :thumbup:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

If indeed you've been the ultimate sponge and soaked up enough knowledge to be worth more, you're not being unreasonable to ask for it. OTOH, it's very easy to _think_ you've done that while the reality is that you have quite a way to go. 

Repetitive routine stuff is easily learned, but unless you're extremely specialized, each job is going to present you with a unique set of challenges--and there's no way you are going to be equipped to handle all of them well without putting in the time and having the history.

Another angle to consider is whether the boss can actually afford to give you the raise you'd like. He might want to, but the numbers just won't let him. :thumbsup:


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Can you get more money on another crew?

That's the real question. if the market pays $15 that's what you are worth. What can you do to increase your value? 

I wish I could get a good guy for $15. The market here is like $18-$22 for a hard worker.

As a boss, I try to think of it as an equation. If my guy produces X then I'll pay X If he's 20 yrs old or 90 yrs old.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

These are the legitimate answers to a request for more money:
1) Yes. Here's your raise.
2) Let me know if you get a better offer from someone else.
3) I can't pay you any more.
4) No. I'm paying you what you're worth to me.

"That would 'violate the wage increase schedule.'" is complete BS.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Your value isn't always determined by the quality and speed of your work Sometimes defined in how profitable you are as an employee. 

Right now, you are good enough at what you do to fulfill the contracts that your boss wins. But when you learn how to win contracts for your company, that's when you'll start making big bucks. This can only come with time and experience. 

Secondly, I've learned the hard way that if I give my employees too much too soon, they will under-perform, find excuses to miss work, and in the long run resent me because they don't have any point of reference to compare it to. 

You just might be a good guy that is the exception to the rule but those who have gone before you are a little bit wiser than you and know what they are talking about when they refuse to give you a "satisfactory" raise.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Go ahead and look for another job, you'll find out if you're really worth more. But try not to do this too often or you will look like a job hopper. And give him two weeks notice if he's been treating you right.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

KennMacMoragh said:


> Go ahead and look for another job, you'll find out if you're really worth more. But try not to do this too often or you will look like a job hopper. And give him two weeks notice if he's been treating you right.


That's good advice. You may be a free agent, but be careful about how often you exercise that freedom.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Warren said:


> From a Boss's perspective:
> 
> I hired you when you knew next to nothing (9 months ago)
> 
> ...


Hit the nail on the head. To the OP, think of the invest this guy made in a know nothing nobody. How much did you cost him not knowing anything and him having to slow his work down to teach you. If anything you probably owe your boss some money. A good education is worth it's weight in gold and it seems that you have been getting a good paid education.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> If anything you probably owe your boss some money.



BS. @ $13/hr. The boss was doing just fine I'm sure. A straight up labor is worth almost $13 IMO.


He doesn't owe his boss anything. The boss trained him in order to make money from his guy. . Not as some kind of charitable act. If the OP finds a better job and leaves, that's the risk you take when you turn a guy down for a raise. Both sides of the equation are always going to look out for their own best interests. Always.

To quote the Godfather, "It's not personal, it's only business"


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I must be a frugal one. I have one employee with me who has now been around since a few months after I started the company and he just got a raise. Reason being, his starting wage was more than it should've been. He only truly knew one aspect of the trade and he was making the same I was as an employee when I could do it all.

You're only worth more if you start to make me more.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

your only worth as much as his competition is willing to pay you


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Am 42 years old and I am still learning. That's cool your willing to learn. It's when we think we know it all , only to find out later we didn't know squat.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

JT Wood said:


> BS. @ $13/hr. The boss was doing just fine I'm sure. A straight up labor is worth almost $13 IMO.
> 
> 
> He doesn't owe his boss anything. The boss trained him in order to make money from his guy. . Not as some kind of charitable act. If the OP finds a better job and leaves, that's the risk you take when you turn a guy down for a raise. Both sides of the equation are always going to look out for their own best interests. Always.
> ...



I agree that the boss trained him to make money, however you are foolish to think it wasn't an investment on the bosses part.

But you have no idea what the OP is like or was like to train. You can't be sure of anything. You have no idea how many hours or how patient his boss was with him. I have trained many people across many industries and it it takes a good year to recoup the lag they cause and the f-ups that occurs while training them. It's obvious that you have never had to train someone or have had the luxury of them being trained when they got to you.

Nothing would send you packing than me giving a rookie a chance, training them, and then them becoming so arrogant with what I gave them that they start making demands on their worth. I was the one that took the risk and I should recoup any loss as well as be able to gain from my investment.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

brunothedog said:


> your only worth as much as his competition is willing to pay you


You know what I tell someone with this attitude, "There's the door! Good luck with that!"

Pay isn't everything on a jobsite. Job security, conditions of the work environment, benefits...if you are chasing pay and not a career you will end up working for every Tom Dick and Harry chasing something that just isn't there.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I was the one that took the risk and I should recoup any loss as well as be able to gain from my investment.


What does that mean?...in terms of getting paid what you're worth. Are you saying an employee should get paid less than what they're worth to help the boss recoup the investment? I'm not talking about "overestimating" one's worth, but trying to find the fair worth when they get up to speed and more skills, etc. In this case, the guy had the $1 difference between him and the scrub for comparison. Did that mean anything? That would bug me, though I would still ask myself if the job has other benefits, such as ability to learn, advance, environment, etc.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

You will rarely get a lage jump in pay without changing employers. 

Be careful though. sounds as though you are happy with the things that are the most difficult to reproduce. You have a guy that is openly teaching you a trade that you can take anywhere. A happy work environment is a delicate thing and should be cherished. It seems like some would have a deep sense of loyalty as a result. But everyone needs to take care of themselves the best way you can.

One thing that all young guys in the trades should understand is that you are really self employed. If your main client runs out of work, it is you and your connections that will either keep you in work or find yourself hungry. Knowing what your options are in the pool of potential jobs is your business and it is up to you to choose the best situation for you at any given time. You are in charge of you. choose wisely grasshopper.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> What does that mean?...in terms of getting paid what you're worth. Are you saying an employee should get paid less than what they're worth to help the boss recoup the investment? I'm not talking about "overestimating" one's worth, but trying to find the fair worth when they get up to speed and more skills, etc. In this case, the guy had the $1 difference between him and the scrub for comparison. Did that mean anything? That would bug me, though I would still ask myself if the job has other benefits, such as ability to learn, advance, environment, etc.


What I am saying is that what you are worth and what you perceive you are worth are two different things.

I hire someone with no experience at $15 an hour. I tell them that this is their wage for 1 year. I know that in the beginning they are no where near worth $15 but I don't think that anyone in this industry should make less than $15 an hour, JMO.

In the first several months not only am I paying you more than you are worth and on top of that I understand that you are going to make mistakes, that will cost me money, but we learn from them.

Somewhere during that first year you will begin to earn your $15, so at that time I am breaking even. Until you start making me money everything to that point is a loss or break even. When you start making me money, that is when I get to see the benefit of my hard work. So yes, for a period you are working at a level above you pay scale. But it's usually not for long, but long enough for me to see some benefit.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I get it, but still think there's not much of an obligation an employer can expect. Sure it's great when it happens and they stick around, and that builds goodwill moving forward. Just as a good work environment and a steady check builds goodwill. But it's still part of the risk of hiring and keeping. Sure, we might think of all the [email protected] we had put up with on their learning curve, but still, now is now.

....on the other hand, if what comes to the boss's mind are some of the jobs they did screw up, esp. through b.s. carelessness (and there can be lots of those), then fire away!


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## eastend (Jan 24, 2006)

in post # 42 the OP says "I know there is still alot to learn here";
he wants to take advantage of his employer's knowledge and instruction, so that one day he can run a business of his own. So, he as no problem "using " his situation and his employer to advance himself ( nothing wrong with that)
But it seems that he does not ascribe any value to that scenario. Should gaining the knowledge and experience for himself, come at the expense of his employer? Or can that be considered a fair exchange of value?


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Jspike said:


> I'm just wondering how many of the employers here would give an employee a THREE dollar bump after just 9 months. I don't care how much you think that you have learned there are a thousand situations that you are not prepared to handle or understand. Personally we do a small bump at 6 months and at 1 we'll consider a bigger bump. I got two guys that have learned that making 16$ for an hr for forty hrs for 52 wks is a lot better than leaving us for someone offering 19$ and then running out of work. That's why they have come back to us.


I don't see how an employer has a problem with a $3, $5, or $10 raise. Raises should correspond to sales and/or production, not to time spent working for the company.

Again, what is most crucial, is that an employee earns his keep, the more (s)he gets paid, the higher the pressure to not be a liability to the company.


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## J.C. (Sep 28, 2009)

I think you need to figure out the value of a good job with a good boss. Maybe you can find a job where you will be paid a couple more dollars an hour but is it a job you'd want? Good jobs with good bosses are hard to find just like good employees are hard to find. 

There is no one size fits all answer to your question. I don't think you're being completely unreasonable but I don't think your boss is being unreasonable either. This is something you'll have to figure out for yourself.


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## kcchiefsfan1982 (Dec 8, 2010)

thehockeydman said:


> First off, let me start by saying I have a great boss and love working for him. He's taught me a ton, and I'm extremely grateful for that. However, for the last couple of months, I've felt that I'm underpaid. Recently, it's gotten to the point where I'm actually distracted at work, thinking I should be making more. I love my job, and money is the last thing I want to be thinking about during work.
> 
> Today after work, I spoke to my boss about this. To say the least, he's being reluctant to give me a raise. 9 months ago, I was hired at $13/hour. I was essentially a labourer and cut guy. Today, thanks mostly to boss's teaching, I have enough knowledge, speed, and ability that my boss is comfortable leaving the jobsite on a daily basis, leaving me in charge of whatever we are doing. Granted, there are some parts of the the house that he still needs to be there for, but for much of the house, I am able to effectively get work done and answer every question our other employee has regarding whatever we are doing.
> 
> ...


The best advice you can get right now is "patience". It is too early to be extremely mad about pay, especially after the increases, be it not as large as you would like. You do, however, need to set your own deadline in your head (since you are 21, I would give it no less than 9 months and no more than a year) to when you will demand a certain pay rate, know what compromise you will or won't accept, then if you do not get what you want, leave on good terms (he is not a bad guy for not giving you a raise) and go find the guy that will pay you what you are asking.

Also, you are not a bad guy if you do leave then find out that no one will pay you what you feel you are worth (worse case scenario). It is just the risk you choose. You never know what is on the other side of the mountain until you climb that mountain and look and find out for yourself. There is always the "unknown" in business. Choose your risks. The less risk, the less chance for reward. The bigger risk, the bigger the reward can be, but also, the bigger the loss can be. That is the fun in it all. Any choice is probably the right choice. As long as you don't raise hell. That would be the only bad choice. 

Accept your pay and work happily or decline what your boss offers and leave happily. :clap:


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## gastek (Mar 29, 2011)

I know this is a few days old but this almost sounds like the issue a few weeks back where fast food workers felt they were worth something like $15/hr. Sure jack up their pay and then the consumer is paying for it in the end. Be happy with what you are making now or jump ship and try and make it on your own. Then maybe you'll see the grass isn't greener on the other side. Or if it is, you still have to mow it.:laughing:


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## GCTony (Oct 26, 2012)

Clearly you like the boss. Do you know if the boss likes you? If he's pleased with your work; you two should both grow a pair and sit down and talk it through and find something you both feel comfortable with. Don't do it on the job. Go out for a beer or buy him dinner. Maybe he can't afford to commit to paying you more per hour. Since you're pretty new, it's probably hard for him to justify a rate of someone that has the experience who may make him more money.

Maybe you want to consider discussing the possability of some type of profit share. Since you're so new, there are days where you cost the company money but there are days when you make money for the boss. At this point of your career, you're likely inconsistent when it comes to productivity. At the end of a project, take a look and see if you have more good days than bad days.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*Not right!*



GCTony said:


> Clearly you like the boss. Do you know if the boss likes you? If he's pleased with your work; you two should both grow a pair and sit down and talk it through and find something you both feel comfortable with. Don't do it on the job. Go out for a beer or buy him dinner..


Something doesn't sound right here when I read between the lines. It sounds like this is leading to a 4-hour motel room.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

Warren hit the nail on the head. Your boss is investing in you, even if he's leaving you alone on the job. If I were him, based on your response thus far, I would not feel confident that even if I did pay you more money per hour that you would stay because you're already looking for options, when what you should be looking for is a good teacher. Like you (may) already have. Who is paying you to work and learn. 

It's tough having go-getter's working for you because we invest time into teaching those individuals how/why to do something, make them into what we need in order to run our business then they move on for higher wages.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

pcplumber said:


> Something doesn't sound right here when I read between the lines. It sounds like this is leading to a 4-hour motel room.


4-hour.....

I'm impressed....or is that Viagra


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

My two cents probably isn't worth much here, but after reading everybody's comments, I continue to think about the OP's thoughts and comments, and I don't agree with him.

He sounds like a good kid and probably a good worker. I've never liked someone telling me how good they are, how much they're worth, or how much money they're making me. I'm working with them all day.....I know! Framing a couple of houses, hardly makes anybody an professional .

If you think you're being disrespected or over looked.....grow up working for your dad. :laughing:

If I ever tried to impress my dad (who was my boss) with how much I knew....he would just remind me how much I DIDN'T.

9 months would just get you in the front door with me, and I like to think i'm a good boss. There is so, so much into being a good employee., and i'm sure you are, but most of us have a life time invested in our careers. Coming up through the ranks, I was the least paid worker and I worked way more hours than anybody else...why? Because Dad wanted us to earn what we got and he wanted us to learn. Never did I ever ask for a raise nor has anybody ever asked me, When it's time , the money will come.

Like someone else has already said, after 9 months, you think you've made it, and you've already went to your boss about not being paid enough, maybe you have already crossed that line, things will be different now, so it might be time to find someone to pay you what you think you're worth.

You think when you approached your boss with your issue, you had all your bases covered and had everything well thought out. But as a boss this probably was n't the first time he had that conversation. I've had people make mud a couple of weeks for me, then get up on the line slinging mud everywhere and trying to lay brick while I'm around the corner! I make them get down, they get mad, then they go and tell people how darn good they are and I wouldn't give them a chance. :no:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Brickhook gave you some first hand real solid advice. The best advice I can give you,reread his and take it to heart ! If your boss is a good guy as he seems to be,he will bump you up when the time is right. Do not get antcy,keep your powder dry.


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

To the OP

I think you are too pre-occupied with a dollar here or there, and I'd be thinking a bit more longterm.

Who really cares if you make 14 or 16 or 17 bucks an hour? at the end of the day none of it is a great wage, but you have to put in your dues to get where you want to be.

I'd be thinking where do I want to be in five years? probably want to be making 50k plus (area dependant of course) So how will you get there? You have to learn and get to that level. If you leave for a buck extra, you are not guaranteed to:

-Have a boss that will give you an opportunity to learn, be taught, and get to experience many different phases of framing/construction.

-Have a boss that is generally kind and patient. Especially in framing.

-Work on a jobsite that has an emphasis on proper quality workmanship.

I'd view it as a learning experience, with whatever current hourly wage coming secondary. When I was in your position, I would not leave for more money, I did however leave to get experience in different areas. Tired of formwork? go learn some finishing, etc. Ask yourself if you want to be a hot shot framer, or a more well rounded general carpenter, etc. Both are fine choices, just depends where you want to go, what you enjoy, what you can see yourself doing as a business if you want to go that route.

It sounds like you are doing well and well on your way. I remember after a couple years experience realizing just how green I was the year before. After ten years you will realize just how much you have learned. So just realize as others have said, that while you are learning, you are a first year apprentice at the end of the day.

Get the right experience under your belt. Pay will come in time, but dont' get hung up on a buck an hour for now. My advice anyways.

Good luck....


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