# Romex? say it ain't so...



## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

Was having a discussion with a forman today. With respect to a complete rewire in a gutted 40'X100' office building. While I don't particularly do too much commercial work, I know that it should be done...or at least I do that sort of work with FMC or NMT for all the conductors. However I was challenged with the question of why not romex?

During lunch I looked it up...again.... Type 3-4-or 5 building. 15 minutes and while Romex can be visible, cannot be in a place where it can get damaged. I had actually already known that, but I was looking for some magical code refference with respect to commercial applications. And I couldn't find any. So are there any situations that Romex IS allowed in commercial office space, given the aformentioned?

Thanks


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

James, you answered your own question. Romex is allowed in any building that is type III, IV, or V. It does not matter if the structure is residential or commercial. Industrial is probably out of the question as it would most certainly be type I.

A good rule of thumb is that: If the walls and roof are made of wood, romex is allowed except in the drop ceilings. Be sure to check with the bldg dept regarding exactly what type construction the building actually is.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Romex is also not permitted in a non-dwelling occupancy anymore, where it is exposed. 

_*334.12 Uses Not Permitted.*_
_(A) Types NM, NMC, and NMS. Types NM, NMC, and_
_NMS cables shall not be permitted under the following_
_conditions or in the following locations:_
_(1) In Type I or II construction unless permitted to be_
_Types III, IV, or V construction._
_(2) In non-dwelling construction unless the cables are_
_concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that provide_
_a thermal barrier of material that has at least a 15-_
_minute finish rating as identified in listings of firerated_
_assemblies._
.
.
_(4) Exposed in dropped or suspended ceilings in other_
_than one- and two-family and multifamily dwellings._​ 
In other words, if this is a non-dwelling occupancy, you can normally use romex BUT if you can see the romex, it's a violation. No exposed romex home runs at surface mounted panels. No exposed romex in commercial attics and crawls, etc. You can still normally use romex in the walls of non-dwelling occupancies and drywalled ceilings of non-dwelling occupancies. 

Technically speaking, this section also prohibits you from having any exposed romex in detached garages on a residential property, because detached garages are not a dwelling.​


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

I think you are taking it to an extreem when saying that the attic and crawl space wiring is exposed. 

Do we have any inspectors here?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

jbwhite said:


> I think you are taking it to an extreem when saying that the attic and crawl space wiring is exposed.
> 
> Do we have any inspectors here?


It's not behind a 15 minute finish if you can see it. No two ways about it. 

We're talking non-dwelling, here.


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

It would be behind a 15 min finish from where the occupants are to where the wire is.


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## frenchelectrica (Sep 26, 2003)

"334.12 Uses Not Permitted.
(A) Types NM, NMC, and NMS. Types NM, NMC, and
NMS cables "


Marc ,,

Will you please clearify this a little what the  you called NMC and NMS what the heck is that ?? 


but if iam reading right teh NMC is the same as UF ???
I just want to make sure i am reading this right 

Merci , Marc


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

frenchsparky said:


> "334.12 Uses Not Permitted.
> (A) Types NM, NMC, and NMS. Types NM, NMC, and
> NMS cables "
> 
> ...


I can't. I've never seen the stuff, as far as I know. I'm not even sure it exists. I only use NM type B.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

jbwhite said:


> It would be behind a 15 min finish from where the occupants are to where the wire is.


But that's not what it says. That's what you want it to say. :sad:


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

Ok, in the walls which are drywalled is OK, but not in the attic?
Maybe I mis read that:


> No exposed romex in commercial attics and crawls, etc. You can still normally use romex in the walls of non-dwelling occupancies and drywalled ceilings of non-dwelling occupancies.


This particular building has an attic, however it will have a drywalled ceiling when complete. So, would that mean I can use Romex from lets say a recept or a switch box, run it up the stud, to a Jbox just before the plate, than switch to flex going through the plate than off into the attic? That can't be right.

So let me ask another question, why is flex so dominant in other commercial building just like this one. type V with sheet rock....and the other requirements met?


EDIT:

Wait a minute here, the first line of the quote I just did...


> No exposed romex in commercial attics and crawls, etc.


Meaning if it was a commercial non dwelling that had no ceiling (drop ceiling is a no no, and I know that) comprised of sheetrock or any other material (lath) that gives the 15 minutes THAN romex cannot be in the attic? That makes sense for the required 15 finish. Is that correct?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

What I'm saying is that this 334 requirement is very clear, but oft overlooked. You need something along the lines of MC or EMT anytime you can physically put your eyeballs on the wiring in non-dwelling construction. Feel free to use NM cable when the wiring is concealed in the appropriate construction types. Don't get upset with me, but the code text is very clear. The inspectors might overlook it a bit, but that's their problem.


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

NO NO, I'm not at all upset with you, I appreciate the input, very much so. 

This is actually important to me, because if I can go all romex, it will save alot of time/money for the client. I'm gonna go reread 334, thanks MD!


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> But that's not what it says. That's what you want it to say. :sad:


NO, that is what you want it to say.

To me exposed means that when the building is finished and in normal use, the occupants will not see it. If one must lift a tile, open a crawl door, or remove some other type access panel to get there, it is not exposed. 

Otherwise all wireing is exposed always. I can always remove drywall or open box covers to get to it.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

jbwhite said:


> To me exposed means that when the building is finished and in normal use, the occupants will not see it. .


Yes, but "exposed" was my term. The code says the cables must be "concealed within" that 15 minute barrier. That means INSIDE. You can't be within a thermal barrier if it's only on one side. 

I remain solid and steadfast, that if you can see the romex in a non-dwelling occupancy, it's a violation under 334.


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

If it is in the attic, then it is concealed within the ceiling. If it is in the crawl space it is concealed within the floor.

If I come to have a beer, I will not be able to see either.


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

md, Ryan agrees with you, and he is the best code gooo rrooo I know of..
So you must be right.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

jbwhite said:


> md, Ryan agrees with you, and he is the best code gooo rrooo I know of..
> So you must be right.


I wish more inspectors agreed with him. I see so much exposed romex slipping through on commercial work that I didn't win, it sorta ticks me off. I bid EMT and MC on these jobs, and the hacks get it with exposed NM and get it passed.


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

OK, so to summerize this one last portion up, Because it's an "attic" meaning it has a means to enter into (access cover) that makes it exposed, and NOT concealed within.

An example of the latter would be a finished ceiling (drywalled) and then some kind of ply wood or non removeable sheeting that would conceal the wiring (no eyeballs can see it). And now that I think about that more, it makes sense. Thanks for the input, beers are on me!!


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## Dustball (Jul 7, 2006)

A friend of mine bought a small commercial building last year and gutted it and built it to suit his needs. He had the whole building roughed in with romex and the electrical inspector ordered him to take it all down even though it was all going to be above drop ceilings. It was all re-done with MC cable.


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

Romex cannot be run above drop ceilings except in residential work.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

jbwhite said:


> James, you answered your own question. Romex is allowed in any building that is type III, IV, or V. It does not matter if the structure is residential or commercial. Industrial is probably out of the question as it would most certainly be type I.
> 
> A good rule of thumb is that: If the walls and roof are made of wood, romex is allowed except in the drop ceilings. Be sure to check with the bldg dept regarding exactly what type construction the building actually is.


I wonder how one would drive a romex staple into a steel stud?
Perhaps the Original Poster is just picking brains for obscure articles, but I'll add....Don't put romex or plastic boxes in any place but a house.
I've even heard over three floors residential need to be pipe and MC, though there are exceptions.

I would hate to do a commercial remodel and some goon used romex in there. I would probably pick up my tools and leave.


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

Sparky Joe said:


> I wonder how one would drive a romex staple into a steel stud?
> Perhaps the Original Poster is just picking brains for obscure articles, but I'll add....Don't put romex or plastic boxes in any place but a house.
> I've even heard over three floors residential need to be pipe and MC, though there are exceptions.
> 
> I would hate to do a commercial remodel and some goon used romex in there. I would probably pick up my tools and leave.





> "Perhaps the Original Poster is just picking brains for obscure articles"


Obscure articals??? WTF does that mean?
And to answer your first question please read up on type 3, 4, and 5 building. And while your at it, code does not say that staples HAVE to be used to secure cables. But I'm sure you know that....


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

I guess I'l give it to you, romex is much nicer to pull than MC. But I still wouldn't consider using romex in a commercial setting
Oh and you're a sharp cookie on tone James, perhaps I should consider my self new around here adain, seeing as I haven't posted in a while


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Sparky Joe said:


> Don't put romex or plastic boxes in any place but a house.





Sparky Joe said:


> But I still wouldn't consider using romex in a commercial setting


Joe, I thought you were past statements like these...

Can you explain or give some code reference to support this? This is of course a rhetorical question as it is obviously just your opinion.

I have seen MANY a commercial job with wood framing. I have also seen many a job with wood and metal combined.

While I am not a fan of using NM cable with metal studs, in general there is nothing illegal or wrong about it.


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