# that's it: no more free estimates



## nlgutters (Dec 18, 2007)

Mrmac204 said:


> well I had another one this afternoon. It was on my way to another city, so it wasn't a big deal doing a small detour. He wanted a door reversed- one bedroom door swings the wrong way, so he want's it taken off, spun around, new let-ins for the hinges yada yada (oak). He's telling me how he used to do this stuff, and he just can't bother now. I says no prob. we'll reverse the hinges - so then he says haven't you done this before? you gotta take the hinges off and put them on the other side! ...ooooookkkkkk then..... so he's going on about how he can do all the little fill in's etc.
> So he says how much? I tell him my usual day price, then I say because you are a senior I'll knock off a bunch - basically I'm down to $250. He says no that's way too high, it won't take but 1/2 hr do do this yada yada.
> I realized that he would be a giant pita as he already was telling me how to do things, and it would be a nickel and dime job.
> I didn't charge him a fee because I didn't tell him that on the phone (fair is fair) and it wasn't far out of my way.
> ...


I'm not sure i understand why you went out to see this guy?

It sounds like a job for a handyman or at least let him know over the phone you have a job minimum of $500?


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*Well,*

Mrmac,
Give it a try- you never know- I can empathize with what you went though- I hope that things start to rebound for you and like I said don't let it get to you, I know it's not easy, but - think positive:thumbsup: 



Hey Mr. Finley,
Sorry I took what you said the wrong way- thats the problem with words and forums- I apologize Mike. Railman and I were just talking about that last night- it's all good:thumbsup: 

have a great weekend:thumbup:
Brian


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## outlaw (Jan 7, 2009)

I dont charge for estimates for full roof replacements. However, I will qualify the person first. 

When someone calls for a repair, I tell them the min. charge and what that includes. If they say "well your ad says free estimates and i want an estimate for my repair" then I say "This is your free estimate. Now if you would like for us to come out, I need a credit card #."


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

ApgarNJ said:


> also, there is nothing wrong with adding few hours of time into the estimate for yourself, without actually charging for the estimate.


That's not charging for an estimate. That's charging your customers for the leads that didn't become customers. -- just saying.

I get this one often too --

Them "Hi I'd like to schedule a bid for our bathroom."

Me - "A bid?" 

Them "Yes."

Me "Do you have a design or plans already?"

Them "No"

Me "Well there will be a fee to create the design"

THem " A fee? Nobody else I talked to said anything about that"

Me "Okay, no problem, fax or email me your scaled plans and I'll do a take off and submit a bid."

Them "We don't have any plans"

Me "Then how am I supposed to create a bid with no designs or plans? Hang on... tell me what you want to do, maybe we don't need any designs..."

Them "Uh... ... we just want you to tear everything out, move the toilet to the ceiling, put in 6 skylights, move 3 bearing walls, build a 300 square foot shower with 19 heads, his and hers bathtubs and include a mobile dog wash if there is room."

Me" Um....Yeah...."


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*Yeaaaaaaa,,,,*

"Yeaaaaaa, Peter- nobody told me you had a meeting with the Bobs" Yeaaaaaaaa, :thumbup::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

We don't charge to work up estimates for most projects. However, if there is any design work required (including tile layouts) we charge a design fee and then create a proposal based off of the plans we create. 

We've gone back and forth with charging to come out to do a site survey. We've charged various amounts ($10-$100) and have had mixed success with it in general, regardless of the amount charged. Our referrals understand the charges and usually agree to them. New leads that call usually aren't willing to pay the fees. Right now we charge for design work and/or while we're screening a client over the phone, if we feel there isn't a good fit, or if their first question is "do you do free estimates", we say that we charge a fee. 

We should be more like mechanics - you have to take your vehicle to their location during their business hours, wait for them to diagnose the problem, and then pay a diagnostic fee for them to find the problem and propose a solution.


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

You can absolutely charge for proposals. I do it all the time. I will charge a fee just to drive out to meet with someone--even for a relatively basic, easy to estimate job. I use PayPal to have them prepay. And even if I charge them upfront (and it's not $25.00 either), EVERY single job has a couple of hundred dollars built in by default for "client consultation". This is read "hand holding" before and during the job.

For larger jobs, I insist on people signing a Design Agreement to move ahead with me. I have signed thousands of dollars in Design Agreements in the last couple of weeks (three today). The right people will gladly pay for your expertise. Don't waste your time on someone not willing to spend money from the get go. These are not for millionaires either. They are for mostly average people.

Heck, I just signed a contract today with a very nice couple who wanted to have a little project rebuilt. I talked to the lady on the phone, realized that it was a tiny job and asked her if she could email me photos of the job. She did and I forgot about them. She emailed me back looking for the estimate which I did sitting in my truck between appointments and said "that's great, when can you start?" Never went to the house, never met her, but she told me she was sold on me from seeing our website and talking to me on the phone. 40% margin on that job.

Do you think you can change the mentality of a price shopper? Are price shoppers EVER good clients compared to those who realize you are a professional? I keep telling people to act like a professional and you will get the respect of clients. This is not to say that some HOs want the dirty contractor because they think I'm too polished. That's fine with me. Let the idiots deal with the idiots while I work with the HOs that are willing to pay a premium to have the whole package.

I'm willing to bet that many contractors think they can show up looking like shlt, talking like a truck driver, and scratching out an "estimate" (with misspellings and bad grammar) and that's professional. Well, it's not. Believe me.

Talk the talk and walk the walk. Don't be afraid to let the bad projects get by you while you go after the fruitful ones. I'd rather do 3 VERY profitable jobs than 10 mediocre profit jobs. In the end, it's less work.

Fellas, I am not bragging, but giving you the facts that those of us who charge for estimates and value our time are able to make this work continuously. 

If you can't, you have to ask yourself what you are doing differently.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)




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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

Ummm...yeah Mike, didn't you get the memo? I'm gonna need you to come in this weekend and work on those free designs, and if you could just turn those in with your TPS reports that would be great, OK, super.

:laughing::lol::clap:


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*Greg*

Because I , and others on here may not charge for an "estimate" according to you, we don't value our time-? Lets get off the design ,packaging paper work, mileage,proposal compilation- forget all of that for now, 
you get a call from a from a prospective client for a project they want you to do for them possibly- you tell them you are going to charge a fee for the estimate and they agree.
Personally I think that is great- I Sincerely mean that Greg. No one on this thread said it was wrong. But you come across as " do it my way- or hit the highway" - the question was about - the "estimate fee charge" the first meeting" it is not about design time /proposal compilation /or millage-etc,etc,. Your just going out there to meet the prospective client for the first time. If you are getting paid for your "estimates" as discussed here - that is great! 
But that is your case, your situation- your geographic location, and economic base for which your business operates. I think it is unrealistic and insulting to think that your situation applies from west to east, north to south. where I live and work,Buffalo NY and the suburbs are an economically depressed area. You would be hard pressed to find contractors charging for estimates here..very few 
So what you have said about those of us, that are hard working Men & women that may not have the ability to charge for estimates , such as you, because where we live and work does not allow for that based on the economic conditions of the area,,-Saying that we are not placing any value on our time spent- is totally arrogant and vain, I am offended and surprised at what you said . Again- no one made any comments about those, like you, that charge for estimates- at all. And again - I am glad you are able to do so- A lot of us would like to be in your shoes- but it is not a blanketed ,stamped procedure for all of us considering all the different variables. I charge for my desk time after I get the project- but not for the estimate- that is my situation and works for me. what others are doing, who knows - what ever works for them may not work for you
Brian


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

I never charge just to meet with them. I should charge for the estimates but don't. I factor my time into the job and most of my jobs are for repeat customers who have been with me for 5-10 years or more in some cases. i can't charge them either. i cover myself in the estimate for travel time, fuel, etc. i just don't come out and say it. It's hard enough to get jobs these days, telling someone that it's going to be 50 bucks for me to come out and look at a bathroom remodel before I even bid it, won't get me very far. I know some guys charge a trip charge and then also for estimates but I can't do that in this economy. 
I don't do design work like greg does because I don't do DECKS all the time. Although I do believe that anyone who knows carpentry and has attention to detail can build a quality deck. i'm not putting Greg down, but just because someone does decks everyday, doesn't mean they do the BEST job possible. it's about the quality of work a person puts out day in and day out that matter whether they are remodeling a kitchen or building a deck or building a high end addition.


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## Mrmac204 (Dec 27, 2006)

nlgutters said:


> I'm not sure i understand why you went out to see this guy?
> 
> It sounds like a job for a handyman or at least let him know over the phone you have a job minimum of $500?


ya I've got to start doing that, particularly on the small ones. Reason that I went out to see that guy was I had to go across the river to Langley anyhow, and this guy's house was a couple minutes away from the bridge on my side of the river. No harm no foul- but perhaps a lesson. I gotta vet these folks on the phone so as to eliminate the ones who are not serious or are deluded about the cost of work.


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Listen, I'm not trying to insult anyone. Please don't take it that way. 

Not everyone in my area charges estimate fees. I'm am probably one of the only companies that does. Its a decision I made to maximize putting me in front of the clients with the highest probability of hiring us.

The reason people expect free estimates is because that's what they are used to. Everybody here bitches about doing them. So stop. Change the expectation. Someone has to be the first. Why not you? If HOs no longer expected free estimates as a default. That would be great. 

Sure, I may miss out on getting a couple of jobs, but that comes with the territory. The upside is that I run around less and sign higher quality jobs. 

And yes, the fact that Mike and I are specialists makes it much easier to command estimate fees. That is a huge reason to specialize in and of itself. Specialization also gives us the benefit of receiving more targeted leads that a generlist is going to get. When I'm getting 10-15 leads a day, I have the luxury of picking and choosing. 

This falls into the category of "what are you doing differently". That's all. 
Again, I'm tyring to give people a pep talk here-not a smack down.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

Greg, I would love to specialize in just ONE thing, and have often thought about it. but the way this economy is going, I will continue to do everything from finished basements to full sized additions and a lot in between. It's ok if business is booming, that is something many of us would like to do. When I'm busy, I rarely have time to visit this site and the past few months I've been on it everyday, but i have gone a year sometimes more without posting when times are booming. I'd rather be doing additions and large renovations day after day because I enjoy going to one job for a long period of time and taking it from start to finish. That is not the case these days as home equity loans and people spending a few hundred K aren't as common as they were a few years ago. So I have downscaled a bit and focused on smaller jobs like bathroom remodels and kitchens, window(full units with trim) and other things. 

I think it's great if you get 15 leads a day, most guys aren't getting 15 calls a week these days, at least around here.

Most of my clients come to me via word of mouth from past clients or friends of friends. I like it better that way. Many times no one is even bidding against me.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

If I'm already in the area, I'll show up & write a free estimate. If I've gotta make a special trip, I very well may tell them up front, there'll be a service charge. I may also just jump in the truck & go look at the job. But without exception, if they sign a contract with me, all service charges associated with the estimate are waived.

Recently quoted $150 service charge to drive 2 hours one way to look at the work. We settled on a date & materials & she got her checkbook out to pay the service call. I said no maam, that's free since we're doing the work. She says, in that case, lets look at this & this while you're here. We added a stairway & 100' of floor to the basement.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Instead of beating the drum of why anybody can charge for estimates instead I'm going to just give you the warm fuzzies on who you won't be meeting with if you do -

Never again will you meet with :

A wanabe contractor who is trying to figure out what to charge people so he calls local contractors to have them bid on his pretend or diy project

Somebody who is on the fence between doing it themselves or hiring somebody to do it, but will end up doing it themselves after they find out how much more "expensive" it is once they waste your time

Somebody who is getting 9 bids 

Somebody who is just thinking about it maybe in a few years

Somebody who is going to have their past contractor do the job anyways and just wants to check his numbers against somebody elses

Somebody who is going to have their brother in law do it anyways

Somebody who is going to do it themselves, have their uncle do it or the next door neighbor but whomever was going to do it has no idea how to design anything and they will use your free 20 years of professional knowledge to pick your brain and then let their uncle do it.

And the list goes on and on...

Whether you think you can charge a fee no matter how small it is or not...

I know you're drooling and day dreaming over the freedom you could gain if you could never speak to another person whom I just described ever again...


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

I understand that Mike. I really do. I just think in the environment most of us find ourselves in today, we need to follow up on more leads than do nothing at all. What about charging estimates for customers who have been with you for YEARS and you have been back to do several renovations or other jobs for them, do you then start charging them?
For small jobs, I don't mind doing the estimate for free, as stated above, I factor that time into the bid anyways. i know they are potential clients but thats the risk I take. We all waste time, not always something we like to do. 
If I were to start charging, I'd have to base my estimate fee on the size of the job. Estimating a 300k addition, is a lot longer than a finished a basement. So guys who aren't specializing in one thing, how do you charge a fee for estimates?

I'd rather just say it's a Consultation fee, not really a charge for the actual estimate.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

I wish you guys (and gals) would stop calling proposals, estimates. Proposals aren't estimates and thats why one might consider charging for proposals ir bids because they take time to prepare. 

I used to be involved with industrial/commercial/educational laboratory casework installation bidding that would some times take days to prepare. If we had told DOW Chemical that we would be charging them for the pleasure of bidding their jobs...well...I think you get the picture.

I think some of you believe that you should get calories and gain weight from growing food rather than just eating it.

Perhaps there is a tax deduction possible for losses due to fruitless bidding?


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Instead of beating the drum of why anybody can charge for estimates instead I'm going to just give you the warm fuzzies on who you won't be meeting with if you do -
> 
> Never again will you meet with :
> 
> ...


Exactly! These are some of the things I avoid by not only charging for first time estimates but, also by doing more targeted advertising. My phone rings a lot less, but I'm also not chasing down leads that end up being a dead end.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*blanketed solution,*

Mike,
I really am at a loss on what to think about your views on this. No one - not 1 single individual on this post has criticized those of you that charge. Why are you trying to ram it down the throats of those that don't, and it may be because of our geographic location as I said before. I have a lot of friends that are in the contracting business- we stick together, help each other out - even though we are competing with each other in the same line of work, and none of them charge for estimates-have we wanted to at times - absolutely! 
You are giving a one sided opinion and those that you have mentioned are all the positives (in your opinion) for charging clients to go out and see them - Estimate fee charge. There are also negatives about that process as well, but you failed to do that- can I ask you why?. 
Those that are willing to pay for an estimate IMO are better clients and more serious about there project and just a better situation that dealing with those that have the FREE estimate mentality- I agree. But that is not the case with every single customer that calls you. I get all my work from referrals and it has worked for me very well, I can't remember the last time I was asked "do you charge for an estimate" that gives you some indication as to the mentality of the customers in my area. 
IMO- I think you are just looking at this situation with rose colored glasses and again- no one said anything-"negative" for charging estimates , if that is possible. Some of us simply do not have the same environment that you or Greg may have and for some reason you won't except that.
Brian


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

what if they pay you for your design and expertise and use your design/ideas for another contractor, do you have a copyright on your designs?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

well if they pay for those it belongs to them....no?


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

yes, but it would bother me to know I designed something, got a small fee for it, thinking I was going to do the job and make more, only to find some lower baller come in and use my design to do the job.
that wouldn't sit well with me.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

ApgarNJ said:


> yes, but it would bother me to know I designed something, got a small fee for it, thinking I was going to do the job and make more, only to find some lower baller come in and use my design to do the job.
> that wouldn't sit well with me.


Then charge what you feel is fair for you time and leave it as their property. That way you have no bad feelings. Now imagine doing that for free:no:


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

LoL. actually, I don't feel bad because I don't do anything with my designs. i have a designer do that. i have enough trouble just doing the proposals for people. i was speaking for the guys doing the design fees/ drawings inhouse.


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## Five Arrows (Jan 30, 2010)

*Ticket to a wasted day*



EES said:


> . The lady didn't own it yet.


I do a lot of work for real estate transactions. I have never gotten a job for a house that wasn't under contract. If it is in escrow it is a different deal.. lots of work there.

I only bid or work for owners of record everything else is a waste. I even ask if they are looking for work to be done or just a negotiating tool. If it is a negotation tool I'll do a non binding estimate for a price. This is a 1000, 3000, 10000 thing 1 hr tops at the site no research no written proposal at my hourly rate and milage.

Also I will never do a bid a second time for an agent that screws me. Only legit projects. these will almost always be driven by an inspection report...show me the report. I've spent too much time in attics or under houses in all the crap down there for people who had no intention of ever using my company.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

tomstruble said:


> well if they pay for those it belongs to them....no?


No. Copyright laws require a 'work for hire' arrangement for that to happen.

They are paying you for your time to create the design, not the design. There is a difference. The copyright of anything stays with the creator unless there is a specific agreement to transfer the rights or you create a work for hire arrangement. Such as you have an employee working for you and he is making the designs, he doesn't own them, your company owns what he creates while working as your employee.


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## Mrmac204 (Dec 27, 2006)

well, not to belabour a point  I got a days work for Wednesday from my ad on CL! sheesh! her carpet guy bugged out on her, (kidney stones) so she's stuck to have some baseboard etc. installed. $40/hr - over the phone. And that rubber crown that I ordered 3 weeks back arrived, so that's a go as well. 

Things lookin much better now! wife and I spent the day getting some deck chairs from a local box store (patio) assembled! whew someone in China needs to actually assemble one then write the directions LOL

fixed father in law's small bench, cut the lawn, planted some flowers- then sat on the new chairs and watched the puppy chase butterfly's in the back yard.

currently watching my neighbour try to cut down an old alder tree in his back yard (leaning toward my house) with a hand saw, and a rope around the tree, and his wife holding the end of the rope..... I got pics! post them when that tree comes down - and if it doesn't hit my house! 
yes I did tell him, get a tree guy/logger - but?


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

I've been charging a $25.00 trip fee for years. I write fewer proposals, but of the ones that call and pay the fee, I get 90% of the jobs. 
It sure beats riging around for nothing. I want to be paid something if I start my truck and pull out of the driveway.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*MrMAc*

I am glad things turned around for you MAc,:thumbsup: By the way, Is your house still in one piece:w00t:
Brian


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## Mrmac204 (Dec 27, 2006)

PrestigeR&D said:


> I am glad things turned around for you MAc,:thumbsup: By the way, Is your house still in one piece:w00t:
> Brian


Ya! he saw the light! actually I think he got scared, and called out a tree service. Must'a cost him, getting a tree guy on Sunday evening! fun entertainment. Was a bit scary though as the HO had cut 1/2 way through the tree, so when the professional started climbing we thought it might come down on its own.
first pic is the HO with a hand saw, his wife is holding the rope.
Second is the tree guy climbing up, it was about here we heard the tree crack.
third is the top coming down.

Notice the house in the third pic? the spare roof tiles stacked on the roof. the new owners didn't know about it at all till we told them last summer. Seems the roofers just left them there, and you can't see them from the owners yard. That house was listed for 1m, but they didn't get it due to the recession. My wife toured that place, the main floor slants downhill! a new house????? sheesh. the hacks are creeping up the mountain!!!


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

that's like us showing up to a bathroom that the homeowner "tried" to do themselves. i bet the tree guy wacked him hard on the price. 
some people don't value other peoples time and tools they need to do a job properly.


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## AbsoluteBasements (Oct 7, 2009)

TimNJ said:


> I learned very early not to waste my time with these people. They basically want you to come out and inspect the property for free.


 
I agree, when they say 'I don't own it yet."

I say, call me when you do.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Well, I have read all the posts to this point. However, I haven't seen any posters (which I may have missed) from here in CA -- also known as "Suck Town" nowadays. 

Anyway, I have never charged for estimates. Even if it meant that I had to do some crawl and attic inspection to do it. What I do avoid is driving for 2 hours each way @ 12mpg to do a small job estimate -- it usually has to be a larger job, and, if possible a referral or an existing client. 

Also, if I don't need my truck (12mpg) then I will drive my economy car (32mpg) to go out and walk the site/house/building.

In my area, in my trade, free estimates are the norm. From the hack handyman up to the multi-million dollar firms - the estimates don't cost nuthin. 

The main component of the complaints about losing money on estimates I see is lack of information --- What is the client really looking for, what are their real expectations, is this a viable project that you have a good chance of getting ?

If you can weed out the DIY'ers, the Craigslisters, the SM'ers and others that are just using you as a lever for better pricing from others, or, just folks that enjoy wasting your time --- then you could have a rather simple questionaire composed of 5-8 questions (don't turn it into the 20 questions game) that will at least eliminate the majority of those folks that are just kicking the tires or belong to the list of time wasters I mentioned above. 

Now, since I am getting old, and I have trouble remembering if I have tied my shoes or not, I have made up a list of questions on heavy paper and have it laminated and made several copies located in my truck, car, brief case and various other places so that I don't get caught off guard by that random phone call. 

I think your questions will be related to your trade -- but some might be like this ( remember it is not the question so much as to how you ask it ): 

1. Do you have a start date in mind for this project
----for a small fix it job it might be: How soon are you looking to get this done ?

2. If it's resi - you may ask: Are you the owner of the house ?
If it's commercial: will you be making the final decision ?

3. How many contractors are bidding on this job ? + Do you have some estimates already ?

4. On larger projects: Do you have your plans ready and available ? If it's a small project -- you may ask: Do you have any sketches, drawings or photos of what you want ?

5. The big kahuna(mostly for resi and small commercial) Do you have a budget in mind for this project/job/remodel ? If the answer is Yes, you can ask - Can you give me an idea of what the range is? (this is a mild approach where the client can let loose of what his/her low ball is).

If the answer is NO -- you can decide whether or not to pursue this client -- cus EVERYONE has an idea of what they want to spend -- it may be completely stupid, but they have an idea. You need to know -- you need to know if they think your time is worth $5 an hour or not. You can take a proactive approach and say: I will be happy to give you a free estimate for this job once you have an idea of what your budget is --- do not use the word MONEY. 

If the client doesn't want to talk about the job or project on the phone, or, doesn't want to answer the questions you have - which may be more than the basic 5 or so I listed here ---- F----EM, they are not serious, they just want you to spout out a number they can use against you. 

One thing I know is that when money is being spent -- people get real serious real quick --whether it is their money, their department's money or the corporate money -- people want to know that the money spent is "well spent" and they can justify giving you the money for the service you provide. 

I have received a butt-load of phone call inquiries about doing various jobs, from "how much to put in a ceiling fan", to "how much to install a camera" to "how much to completely rewire my house" ---- and ALL of them want a quote over the phone --- no site walk, no 5 questions, nothing. And the minute I fork over any number --- I never hear from them again, period. I could quote $5 an hour labor and free parts --- and still not get the job. 

In my case, free estimates are part of the cost of doing business. It like having a retail store and then trying to charge a cover to anyone coming in --- to pay for the cost of those not buying anything. 

However, just to make things fair, I do account for my time within the bid or proposal/estimate, it may not be the full labor charge as if we were there doing the work, but I do charge a nominal fee for my expenses prior to doing the work. BTW --- for the client, my site walk/estimate/design fees are hidden in the labor charges and not a separate line item.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

cwatbay said:


> In my area, in my trade, free estimates are the norm. From the hack handyman up to the multi-million dollar firms - the estimates don't cost nuthin.


*I don't know of any part of the country where free estimates aren't the norm.*

Everybody I know of who isn't doing them for free are all operating in the same environment of free estimates.


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Ask a homeowner if they want an "estimate" or if they would rather have an EXACT cost for their project along with all the details of the project.

They will generally always say they want the EXACT cost. That's when you say "Estimates are free and based on what you've explained to me, my experience tells me that a fair estimate your project is to have a budget starting at a minimum of $X".

"If you'd like me to come out, consult with you, and produce the exact specifications for the project SO THAT I AM ABLE to give you AN EXACT COST for the project, I'd be happy to. Our consultation and proposal preparation fee is $X. When is a good time to meet?


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## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

Here is an e-mail message I sent to a prospective client with a written estimate attached. The homeowner acted very interested over the phone, I spent 2.5hrs of drive/site time. 

After a bit, I found out that he was "Just getting estimates", and from the questions being asked, I felt like the real life version of Google for the DIYer. Not to say he wasn't a seemingly nice guy, and not to say that he won't call me a year from now, but chances are that due to my name being in the phone book, I lost 4hrs of my life (includes writing the estimate, etc.):thumbsup: 

After all of that, the homeowner's time must be too valuable to write a response back at all................a simple yes, no, maybe seems to be appropriate after the time I spent. The point is, I had a hunch this guy was using me, so I politely hinted at the fact that there is a difference in an estimate and consultation. He was requesting consultation and I decided not to divulge any more info without being compensated. Let me know what you think of the letter that recieved no response!!!!!:laughing:

Hello "Homeowner",

I have attached the proposed estimate for the shop/barn scope of work only.

In reference to the driveway recoating, my numbers show approximately 13,480sq.ft. to be covered at an average depth of 2" compacted. This pencils out to 96cu. yds or 124.8 tons of crushed aggregate needed. 

With regard to the retaining wall, I came up with quite a few variables that dramatically change the price. Upon further evaluation, I have determined it best to lock down the excavation plan, and then price out the wall accordingly. There are still many variables to consider and thus this should be considered a starting point from which we can develop the best plan of action.


I do offer consultation, design, drafting and plot map construction, as part of my services. If you would like to proceed further with a more in depth planning process, I can construct groundwork plans and specifications that would allow you to acquire truly competitive comparison bids. The fee for this usually runs around $200, and is refundable if you choose to use our company for your project. The other benefit to this service is that you will be able to take the resulting plot map and groundwork specifications to the county for your permit application. 

At this point in time, I have simply given you a number based on the general specifications we discussed in our meeting.

Thank you and it was a pleasure meeting with you. Let me know what you decide and we can go from there.

Sincerely,

"Me"


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

Es·ti·mate (st-mt)
tr.v. es·ti·mat·ed, es·ti·mat·ing, es·ti·mates
1. To calculate *approximately* (the amount, extent, magnitude, position, or value of something).
2. To form an opinion about; evaluate: "While an author is yet living we estimate his powers by his worst performance" (Samuel Johnson).
n. (-mt)
1. The act of evaluating or appraising.
2. A *tentative evaluation or rough calculation*, as of worth, quantity, or size.
3. A statement of the *approximate cost *of work to be done, such as a building project or car repairs.
4. A judgment based on one's impressions; an opinion.


Greg Di, I like your take on this. I may throw that out a few times this week to see what happens. When we've charged for our proposals in the past, I always struggled with the right wording to sell the client on it. I think you just hit the nail on the head. :thumbsup:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Mrmac204 said:


> times being lean, I've kept on doing the free estimate thing. Until the other day, I finally had it. Went into the city to do an estimate for a HO, close to an hour drive each way. Got there, spent the better part of an hour walking around the place, talking to the Ho etc. (baseboard install - which I couldn't measure because the floors were wet- wax) new door downstairs (prehung) new bifold, and re-and re-the back door with an old front door.
> 
> stopped off at my local lumber yard, spent some time there getting prices etc. figured it all out- called the HO, she tells me her cousin will do the work when he has time!
> 
> ...


I came to learn this in my early 20's...there's no such thing as a "free estimate". 
In a reverse benefit, those who don't give you the job get the benefit of your time for free,
while those who actually hire you are the ones who end up paying for that time.

I try to get in and get out as soon as possible. 
It takes years of experience to feel out a potential customer 
(to determine "how" serious they are about getting the job).

I think of this when I do work for people who actually contract me.
I give them great service in gratitude for their business. 
It kind of all balances itself out. 

I've gotten to the point where I can tell when someone's just trying to get "something on paper"
for their insurance claim or to take back to a contractor they already have in mind to use as a bargaining chip.

It's amazing how some people actually get angry with me if I want to charge them for an actual report 
(far more time consuming, detailed & including photos) of their roofing damage. 

It took me YEARS to learn to walk away from these "time vampires". 












I still give free estimates. I just do it in a timely manner...I get in and get out. 
I don't need anymore than 5 minutes to know what a project will cost me on the types of jobs I do.
I can look at a roof and tell them square footage within 100 square feet. 

I'll give a general price first (in my favor) outlining the benefits of my service. 
I can't remember the last time I've had to lower my price and I've been pricing my projects well. 
I've walked away from jobs where a potential customer was trying to take advantage of the weak economy.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Ok, so I've read through the thread now.

Seems that some trades have to put in more time to give an estimate. 
My question to those of you that do have to put in more time, 
is it possible to just look at a job and give a general price with options?

Similar to the "good, better, best" method of selling? 

Do you have to price out a job in detail (material, etc...)? 

I would imagine that you could look at a job, think of a similar job, 
kind of price out your materials/labor/costs as percentages of the job?

I'm sure there has to be a good reason that someone doing a different trade would 
have to sit down and put in hours to give an estimate. Just wanted to know. 

I don't sit down an put paper to pen (outside of a standard proposal to the specific job) until I have a deposit.


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## tbronson (Feb 22, 2010)

ApgarNJ said:


> what if they pay you for your design and expertise and use your design/ideas for another contractor, do you have a copyright on your designs?


Depends on the contract you have with them. Usually its considered work for hire if you are paid for it and its in the contract as "work for hire". 

I believe that if you don't state it on the document in question then its even more grey. And from experience the judge tends to favor the defendant when the contract is written vaguely. As in if it wasn't in writing then its not the case. That's why my contracts spell every detail out and have verbage in them to cover things not covered in the contract.

Edit: I did not remember correctly the work for hire statute. I edited the above to reflect it. It's not automatic and has to be called out specifically in the contract.


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