# Wasting peoples time



## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Went to wrap up a sale for a job yesterday and had an interesting experience.
The owners daughter in laws sister was a decorator.
She was helping with the final tile, granite and paint choices. 

What bothered me is when she started talking about her kitchen she stated that she had 6 contractors come and discuss her kitchen. She had no intentions of using any of them as she had a handyman her realtor friend uses that was cheap! ( we all know what that means)

I find it extremely rude and arrogant for a person to "use" six people and take time from their families for their own gain.

I know it is part of the business but I found myself praying that there is a hell and please let this women be part of it 

It is times like that when I am glad I do referrals only. The odds are much higher of ending up with a credible chance of getting the job???

oh, I really don't want to see her burn...just roast a little:thumbup:


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## Patty (Jan 21, 2006)

I know what you mean, copusbuilder. I just went to a home recently to give an estimate on granite kitchen countertops and the guy says, "Well, now all we have to do is decide whether we get countertops OR remodel the basement. It's a toss up!!!" DUH???? Why don't you decide that BEFORE you start calling people in and wasting our time! IDIOT!!!!


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

I can often sense when I am competing with a possible DIYer, and don't really have a problem with trying to sell that way (No hassles, it'll be done right, proper tools, warranty...etc..), but these people are another story

You have no chance at all to get the job

That's just rude
Really rude, obnoxious

And they had the time to meet with six people for a job that doesn't exist?
Good lord

Hey I guess it's cheaper entertainment than going to th movies

Man we really need that Better Customer Bureau to give others a heads up on that stuff


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Like I said long ago lets get it started.

Bob


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

slickshift said:


> I can often sense when I am competing with a possible DIYer, and don't really have a problem with trying to sell that way (No hassles, it'll be done right, proper tools, warranty...etc..), but these people are another story
> 
> You have no chance at all to get the job
> 
> ...


She was the decorator and had nothing to do with the job I was on...thank god... I was probably red in the face when she started spouting and I think my customers...and probably her could see how upset I was:furious: 
I bit my tongue and told her of an electrical code violation when "one" of the contractors suggested getting the outlets out of the backsplash area and putting them in the cabinets bottom (1x12") pop in boxes with the wire run inside the cabinets (no conduit).. I took great delight in pointing out that when she sold she will probably have to put them back:thumbup:

Hey Slick, I spent from 8-18 tears of age living in Norwell. My old school....Lived in Plymouth for a year after divorcing my first wife....


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Patty said:


> I know what you mean, copusbuilder. I just went to a home recently to give an estimate on granite kitchen countertops and the guy says, "Well, now all we have to do is decide whether we get countertops OR remodel the basement. It's a toss up!!!" DUH???? Why don't you decide that BEFORE you start calling people in and wasting our time! IDIOT!!!!


It really upsets me (as you can tell) when people have no regard for anyones time. I wish contractors (myself included) would stop giving free estimates. If they had to spend $25 dollars she would have left those six folks alone!!

But Patty....Idiots is a good word:biggrin:


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

copusbuilder said:


> It really upsets me (as you can tell) when people have no regard for anyones time. I wish contractors (myself included) would stop giving free estimates. If they had to spend $25 dollars she would have left those six folks alone!!
> 
> But Patty....Idiots is a good word:biggrin:


I agree!!

Lets start and see if we can make a trend.:sad:


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## mtnframer (Jul 22, 2005)

COPUS
If I feel like my time is being wasted I give my quick pitch
and a high ballpark and split.Nothing you can do,if you give 
free estimates,which I do.However I do not design for free.
Steve


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

copusbuilder said:


> She was the decorator ...


Ah...well now...that answers a lot right there

She was bragging to you
Thinking it would impress you and/or her sister (or lamely attempting to Alpha-Dog you in front of her sister) that she's so smart because she knows you are over-priced, and you know you are over-priced, and any handy person could do it, and "look at me I make over-priced contractors jump through hoops
Jump boy, jump!...I'm so smart"

Decorators
....hmph

btw, if you've ever read Dante, I believe the 5th ring of Hell is reserved for Decorators



copusbuilder said:


> Hey Slick, I spent from 8-18 tears of age living in Norwell. My old school....Lived in Plymouth for a year after divorcing my first wife....


I just moved to West Yarmouth
The GF's folks are in Plymouth, and her 8 bros and sis' are in the area
Both sides of my family are from around here also, but I've never lived up here before
I like it so far (3 weeks ha ha ha)


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

slickshift said:


> btw, if you've ever read Dante, I believe the 5th ring of Hell is reserved for Decorators


I'll drink to that. :drink:


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## Patty (Jan 21, 2006)

ProWallGuy said:


> I'll drink to that. :drink:


Hey ProWallGuy,

You've got the right idea! It's 5:00pm SOMEWHERE in the World! Let's start Happy Hour a bit early!!!!:drink:

Any takers?????:jester:


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Patty said:


> I know what you mean, copusbuilder. I just went to a home recently to give an estimate on granite kitchen countertops and the guy says, "Well, now all we have to do is decide whether we get countertops OR remodel the basement. It's a toss up!!!" DUH???? Why don't you decide that BEFORE you start calling people in and wasting our time! IDIOT!!!!


I've been in this sutuation before, on both sides of the table. They are either stalling because they don't want to sign or they are serious. Why didn't they figure that out before? How could they (seriously)? They didn't have the information they needed to make an educated decision. They didn't know what each would cost.

Like Copus said, it just goes with the business. Like I always say, you can't win 'em all.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

> What bothered me is when she started talking about her kitchen she stated that she had 6 contractors come and discuss her kitchen. She had no intentions of using any of them as she had a handyman her realtor friend uses that was cheap! ( we all know what that means)
> 
> I find it extremely rude and arrogant for a person to "use" six people and take time from their families for their own gain.


Let's all face it the word "decorator" says a lot - she isn't an interior designer, which means she has no degree or certifications, decorators are a dime a dozen and basically anybody who thinks they know the difference between white and off white qualifies. Being a decorator means she was probably a stay a home mom/ebay seller or a Mary Kay saleswoman previously. 

Obviously her non-professional attitude of wasting professional contractors time pretty much verifies she's not legitimate in any sense of the word.

Nothing against professional handymen, but handyman trying to do the work of professional kitchen remodeling contractors is bad enough, but a handyman that works for a realtor pretty much defines that handyman's level of expertise. There ain't a Realtor in the world that employs talent. Cheap is the deciding factor in their selection process. I'm sure her handyman is the exception though.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> There ain't a Realtor in the world that employs talent.


  I did a deck for a realtor....
I guess I must have underbid that one.:cheesygri


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I actually like decorators. At least somebody, other than me, will make decisions. You don't know how hard it is prying lighting layouts and mounting heights out of a homeowner. I make suggestions, but not decisions. With a decorator or designer, they will make the decision (even dumb decisions, often times), then the blame is on them. At times, I get paid even more to remediate bad decisions by the decorators. God save the decorators.


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

A designer, that's different
You don't get to be a designer by watching a bunch of reruns of that Paige Davis show and having some guests compliment you on your living room


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2006)

...


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

As I have said before, no free estimates. If you're just getting off of the ground, maybe. The majority of 'free estimate' folks are looking for the cheapest and they'll get it


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## ABLE1 (Apr 30, 2005)

copusbuilder said:


> Went to wrap up a sale for a job yesterday
> 
> I find it extremely rude and arrogant for a person to "use" six people and take time from their families for their own gain.
> 
> ...



Had a call a while back from a woman asking for an estimate. At some point in the conversation she said that she was calling everyone in the book. At which point I said: "Well then you will be waisting a lot of peoples time". She said: "What do you mean??" I said: "You will be waisting a LOT of peoples time and you have already waisted enough of mine, have a nice day". And hung up. :furious::furious: 

I am sure she thought I was being very arrogant. My hope is that my comment slowed her call "everyone in the book".:thumbup: 

Les


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

The bottom line is either charge for estimates/consultations or don't complaining if you're doing them for free.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

DecksEtc said:


> The bottom line is either charge for estimates/consultations or don't complaining if you're doing them for free.



Re-read the post Terry:shifty:


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

I read the entire thread copus and I understand your point and frustration. I just believe that if you had of charged for the estimate, you'd wouldn't have felt quite so frustrated.

Did I do free estimates last year? Yes, and I did my fair share of quotes for "tire kickers". My business was in it's first full year and the marketplace I was entering more or less demanded it. I didn't complain though as it was part of my growing pains.

Will I be providing free estimates this year? No. I feel that I am now in a position to charge for all of them this year. I've already done 3 consultations for the spring and booked 2 of them. And the fence I am doing currently will turn into a pergola, 2 trellises and an arbor once the weather turns better. Also, I'm 99% certain that a customer I did a deck for last year will be getting me to build his fence and his 8-9 neighbors.

I'm not saying that you (your post didn't say you charged for the estimate) or anyone that does free estimates is doing things wrong. I was just simply stating that providing a free estimate waives the person's right to complain about it.

Now, complaining about the "decorator", well that's a different story... :cheesygri


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

One more thing to add to my post above:

Despite my best intentions to charge for all consultations this year, I will be waiving my fees for referrals from past customers. I don't want to charge people that were referred to me if I didn't charge the person who sent them to me. I think I'd be setting myself up for failure with those potential customers.

On a side note, I got an email requesting a fairly lengthy list of work. At the end of the note, they asked if I provided "financing". I had to stop myself from telling them I wasn't a "bank" when I was writing back - I politely told them I don't provide that service. I have a feeling they won't be booking me for a consultation.


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## A+Carpenter (Apr 19, 2005)

:w00t: Copus we call them "TIRE KICKERS"

Trip charges are gaining more and more with me.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

DecksEtc said:


> I read the entire thread copus and I understand your point and frustration. I just believe that if you had of charged for the estimate, you'd wouldn't have felt quite so frustrated.
> 
> Did I do free estimates last year? Yes, and I did my fair share of quotes for "tire kickers". My business was in it's first full year and the marketplace I was entering more or less demanded it. I didn't complain though as it was part of my growing pains.
> 
> ...


Terry, I had the job. She was theire giving her family members free advice:biggrin: The job she had the people out on was her house. I never went to that one at all. Something told me if she called and I talked with her I would not have shown.
Those are the people that get confused with what each contractor actually bid. Plus I don't like yuppies:innocent: 

If anybody in this neck of the woods charged for estimates you would be out of business. Design or complicated estimates would be different and I can charge for those. If someone is buying a home and doesn't own it and wants a bid I will charge for those. If I don't like the people when I speak to them on the phone...I really charge for those:cheesygri 

I really wasn't complaining about anything other than her wasting the time of six *other* contractors with no intentions of using them?


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## mtnframer (Jul 22, 2005)

Terry
I build a few decks a year,and I cant imagine not giving free estimates.
With advertising expense I want to quote as many decks as i can.More
power to you if you charge for estimates.
Steve


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

DecksEtc said:


> The bottom line is either charge for estimates/consultations or don't complaining if you're doing them for free.


I understand the pain here from the original post, and of course it is okay to vent and ***** about it, that's what makes this place fun. So vent away but don't really let it bother you. Because with everything in professional life you have to always consider the source first. A decorator is closer to a personal shopper than most anything else. They like to pick out drapes, furniture, paint colors and all the fun stuff, but ask them any in depth questions on simple topics to help you decide something other than based upon what looks good, such as to explain the pros and cons of different counter top materials, or the pros and cons of ceramic vs porcelain tile and they are stumped, that's way over almost every one of their heads. They can certainly help tell you which color granite will go with the flooring, but they are clueless about why to install granite vs Formica other than granite looks cool and they like to help you spend your money. :thumbdown 

That's why I mean consider the source, just because she is a decorator doesn't mean much of anything in regard to knowing better than to jerk people around. They are nothing more than personal shoppers and you will find that it isn't uncommon for them to get off on the shopping experience of jerking people around for deals. They have very little understanding of value and base most of their decisions like cats - _*shiny objects excite them.*_


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Just a word to the wise, NEVER, EVER confuse a Decorator with a Designer. I made that mistake ONCE early on. A designer has a 4 yr. degree. Here a 'decorator' has a $25 license. Designers can get very angry if you confuse the two and may scratch your eyes out.

If you hook up with a few good designers and your in the remod bus., like me, it can be a very good deal. They design, they sell, they take the heat for glitches and you just do the work.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> If you hook up with a few good designers and your in the remod bus., like me, it can be a very good deal. They design, they sell, *they take the heat for glitches* and you just do the work.


That's what I'm talking about! :thumbsup: Sorta the same thing with architects, except they seem to have a knack for making every mistake someone else's fault.


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## widco (Jan 16, 2004)

---


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

I am now bidding a job which has a designer involved. The owner is an English floor trader and has little to no time. He has (on one of the two times I was able to talk with him) told me he wants to maintain a 20-25,000 $ budget. Met with the designer (who was a total flake and needs to have some hard times in her life) and she has the remodel up to around 100k
Called the owner who is ruched and tried to tell him we are getting high and he replied "she knows what I want and I'll have her handle it" To make matters worse she is a wanna be girlfriend I will do a little more but will not be spending any quality time on this one.
The fax I got this a.m. states she is brainstorming on ways to use the dead space in the bathrooms and incorporate part of the utility room?? I think she suffered a lightning strike already


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## A+Carpenter (Apr 19, 2005)

copusbuilder said:


> I am now bidding a job which has a designer involved. The owner is an English floor trader and has little to no time. He has (on one of the two times I was able to talk with him) told me he wants to maintain a 20-25,000 $ budget. Met with the designer (who was a total flake and needs to have some hard times in her life) and she has the remodel up to around 100k
> Called the owner who is ruched and tried to tell him we are getting high and he replied "she knows what I want and I'll have her handle it" To make matters worse she is a wanna be girlfriend I will do a little more but will not be spending any quality time on this one.
> The fax I got this a.m. states she is brainstorming on ways to use the dead space in the bathrooms and incorporate part of the utility room?? I think she suffered a lightning strike already


Copus do me a favor and turn that job down. :thumbsup: Sounds to me like your headed for a storm.


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## A+Carpenter (Apr 19, 2005)

> Called the owner who is ruched and tried to tell him we are getting high and he replied "she knows what I want and I'll have her handle it" To make matters worse she is a wanna be girlfriend I will do a little more but will not be spending any quality time on this one.
> 
> 
> > Sounds to me like they are getting high!!!:laughing:


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## bellerose (Aug 21, 2005)

awidmeyer said:


> The decorator on one of my jobs is so annoying, condescending, and lame. She will tell me what she wants to have installed where, or the owner will say what she wants then the decorator will repeat it about 4 times like she's having a revelation. Then when she changes her mind she tries to make it seem like my fault, I get everything in writing from her now. Designers I work with are way more professional and talented. But as far as free estimates, I hate that feeling of being used. Reminds of driving to this house by the beach on a Saturday, black Ferrari in the garage and everything, spend a few hours designing and estimating custom fence work only to find out he only wanted something to justify that he was getting a good deal from his handyman who he was already planning on using. I take my estimates very seriously and when they are done I have a shopping list of all the materials needed and a task list of all the labor items required in chronological order. I think people should charge for estimates and I don't think I can afford to do them for free, maybe the thing to do would be to charge for the estimate with a refund for that amount if the job is awarded. They are usually complicated custom carpentry projects and not a simple per unit type job so I think I am justified in charging although I haven't charged for them before I don't know how it will go over.


Charge the sob's. I am sick and tired of wasting my time and $$$$$ to give out quotes. The last 4 quotes I did not get. All were small jobs under $1500.
So from now on I am charging $10 to cover my gas. If you can't afford $10 you are wasting my time and I hope they get a lousy job done !


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

AdamMeider said:


> > Called the owner who is ruched and tried to tell him we are getting high and he replied "she knows what I want and I'll have her handle it" To make matters worse she is a wanna be girlfriend I will do a little more but will not be spending any quality time on this one.
> >
> >
> > > Sounds to me like they are getting high!!!:laughing:
> > ...


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

bellerose said:


> Charge the sob's. I am sick and tired of wasting my time and $$$$$ to give out quotes. The last 4 quotes I did not get. All were small jobs under $1500.
> So from now on I am charging $10 to cover my gas. If you can't afford $10 you are wasting my time and I hope they get a lousy job done !


I would love to see charges come back for estimates. We need to get in a time machine and assasinate the person who came up with this crazy idea:w00t:


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

I started charging for "stick" estimates. It works. I will look at a project like a basement remodel for free and send a letter with a ballpark price to the HOs. If they want the actual price, they must send me 3% of the estimated price of the job (Credited towards the project) to come back to take detailed measurements, bring in subs, and refine the details.

I began this approach in late October 2005. So far, I have signed one $100k+ contract based on this method. Most people, I never hear back from, but I'd never hear back from them anyway, even if I spent 3 hours doing a stick estimate. This prequals people and lets you know who is serious.


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## bellerose (Aug 21, 2005)

copusbuilder said:


> I would love to see charges come back for estimates. We need to get in a time machine and assasinate the person who came up with this crazy idea:w00t:



A couple of years ago I charged a clown $20 for an estimate b/c he needed it on my letterhead for the insurance company. I gave him the estimate and he said thanks he will call me.He opened the door for me.

I stood there with my hand out and refused to leave until I got my $20.
He said: " well. when you get the job you can add it to the bill".

Does he think I am stupid ? I said you might not give me the job. He blabbed some bs but I refused to leave. he got his wallet out, gave me the $20. he looked visibly annoyed. 

I left and called him an a$$hole to myself, which he is. I got my $20 though.

I think I am about done with this line of work. I am too high strung to deal with this. Time to become an employee somewhere calm.


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## widco (Jan 16, 2004)

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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

bellerose said:


> A couple of years ago I charged a clown $20 for an estimate b/c he needed it on my letterhead for the insurance company. I gave him the estimate and he said thanks he will call me.He opened the door for me.
> 
> I stood there with my hand out and refused to leave until I got my $20.
> He said: " well. when you get the job you can add it to the bill".
> ...


i fully understand the frustration but don't let it get to you that badly. 
i always say to the wife it's like a big bowl of soup. If you and the family get to take out enough you doing o.k. 
I used to get used when I dealt with realtors. Once I learned there was mo lower form of life and eliminated the a-holes from my life it took a turn fot he better.:furious: 

Keep plugging away and don't get beat. Enjoy the times when you can get em back:clap:


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