# Plumbing repair with old brass pipes



## plazaman (Apr 17, 2005)

In a middle of a sandy reconstruction project where be removed the base cabinets and drywall . Old water shut off Valve on the brass pipes got stuck in the off position . So I made a quick repair with a new Valve , nipple , and a union . 

Should I have used copper for the repair or would this be acceptable? I just don't like Using unions .


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

The problem isn't the material type. The larger issue is that junk hardware store valve you used. I would never put that in.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

I'd be ok with the valve, just don't like the galvanized union and nipple.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Union is good for 50 years around here at least.


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## S.R.E. (Apr 8, 2010)

I would never use galvanized on a water line. It will rust and even though it might not break for 50 years it will reduce the I.D. significantly. I have taken galvanized apart that was rusted inside and you would be surprised how much it was restricted.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

S.R.E. said:


> I would never use galvanized on a water line. It will rust and even though it might not break for 50 years it will reduce the I.D. significantly. I have taken galvanized apart that was rusted inside and you would be surprised how much it was restricted.


I've taken galvanized apart that was as clean as the day it was installed, it all depends on the quality of the water running through it.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

S.R.E. said:


> I would never use galvanized on a water line. It will rust and even though it might not break for 50 years it will reduce the I.D. significantly. I have taken galvanized apart that was rusted inside and you would be surprised how much it was restricted.


I still put galvanized back in sometimes. Looks better.

99% of the time it's as good as new when I take it apart.


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## wyoming 1 (May 7, 2008)

Not out here, most of what I take a part is rusted on the inside so bad a 3/4" pipe is down to about a 1/4". Makes good service calls every time a snow bird comes back in the spring and turns on there water, plugs all the shower heads and toilet valves


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## A.T.H.I. (Feb 8, 2008)

Galvanized shouldn't be used with copper or brass unless it's connected to a dielectric connector. The reason for this is galvanized will corrode the copper / brass it makes direct contact with because of the different properties in them. That is the same reason why you should only use copper nails with copper pipe strapping and not regular nails.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

A.T.H.I. said:


> Galvanized shouldn't be used with copper or brass unless it's connected to a dielectric connector. The reason for this is galvanized will corrode the copper / brass it makes direct contact with because of the different properties in them. That is the same reason why you should only use copper nails with copper pipe strapping and not regular nails.


Using brass to transition from copper to steel is done all the time, it is an accepted connection in every code I have ever looked at.


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm no plumber, but my interpretation was always that brass is required from copper to steel, the brass IS the dielectric connection..or so I thought.....


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## UALocal1Plumber (Jun 19, 2009)

A.T.H.I. said:


> Galvanized shouldn't be used with copper or brass unless it's connected to a dielectric connector. The reason for this is galvanized will corrode the copper / brass it makes direct contact with because of the different properties in them. That is the same reason why you should only use copper nails with copper pipe strapping and not regular nails.


First off I'd love to see actual copper straps anywhere in the world. All the 2 hole straps I buy are plated steel. They're cleverly plated to make a convincing copper color but definitely steel.

On top of that where in the hell am I going to find copper nails? And who in the business uses nails at all for straps anymore? Get real, this ain't happening.

Moving on, copper and iron are very far apart on a galvanic cell chart and will transfer material between them IN THE PRESENCE OF A SOLVENT such as water. So there's a tiny tiny chance that in a locality with a very aggressive water character, copper pipe will steal material from the iron, causing not rust but pinholes (or large holes I guess) to form. The rusty appearance is just from the exposed iron oxidizing.

Anyway, in a dry environment there is simply no reaction. Nada, zip. The ions can't transfer freely through thin air, they require a solvent to be applied to initiate a reaction. So your copper nail thing is retarted. Like way retarted. So please stop.

Keith


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Happy Thanksgiving Keith


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## UALocal1Plumber (Jun 19, 2009)

And to you as well!!!!! I have much to be thankful for. My son is baking and my daughters are getting dressed up.

I stayed up till 330 last night getting a boiler and water heater in for a family that was devastated by sandy, they woke up to hot showers and cooking gas, heat in the bedrooms and a nice holiday. 

So I feel like it's a happy thanksgiving indeed!

Keith


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

UALocal1Plumber said:


> First off I'd love to see actual copper straps anywhere in the world. All the 2 hole straps I buy are plated steel. They're cleverly plated to make a convincing copper color but definitely steel.


I can answer that question. Below are 3 photos of copper straps I buy. The are not plated. Plated straps are cheap thin junk sold at Home Depot and none of my wholesalers carry them because well, they are junk and meant for HO's. 

I cut one in half to show you.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

It might be regional Keith, around here they sell them exclusively


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I do agree with Keith fir what it's worth. Much of the electrolysis argument is bunk. It's more theory than reality, HO's don't maintain anything including water heaters so if the average age is 9 years they often times don't get to see electrolysis happen.

I service a lot a water heaters and water service and by that I mean A LOT! It's incredibly rare I see plugged lines caused by this. 

Water heater companies put in dielectric nipples and actually they cause more problems than they prevent.

I've ripped out and tore out water lines where copper was hacked into old galvanized 30+ years ago and NO electrolysis whatsoever is evident. 

Copper plated nails are for looks IMO.

On commercial jobs, back when I did hospitals and clinics etc they used steel studs and drains were copper as well as water lines. If the copper touched the galvanized stud anywhere in the system it would fail inspection so we used grommets and "pipe eyes" or floated the drain in the oversized hole. IMO that's bullsh## but for me it was more about rubbing and cutting into the lines but the inspectors looked at it from a electrolysis standpoint. Totally lame.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Just for a bit of contrarywise anecdotal evidence, at least a half-dozen times in the last 5 years or so, I've had the pleasure of unearthing [illegally] buried galvanized electrical junction boxes that were left touching copper water lines.

The reason I found them is that in each case, the copper line had developed a pinhole leak at the point of contact with the j-box.

While not exactly germane to the OP, that's made it clear to me that electrolysis is very real. :thumbsup:


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Tinstaafl said:


> Just for a bit of contrarywise anecdotal evidence, at least a half-dozen times in the last 5 years or so, I've had the pleasure of unearthing [illegally] buried galvanized electrical junction boxes that were left touching copper water lines.
> 
> The reason I found them is that in each case, the copper line had developed a pinhole leak at the point of contact with the j-box.
> 
> While not exactly germane to the OP, that's made it clear to me that electrolysis is very real. :thumbsup:


When it is buried you have the moisture in the earth to act as a conductor, quite different from a steel stud touching a copper line inside a wall.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> When it is buried you have the moisture in the earth to act as a conductor, quite different from a steel stud touching a copper line inside a wall.


I meant buried inside a wall, not the earth. Pretty much identical scenario with the steel stud thing.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

It is why Boats have "Zincs". Sacrificial elements.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> I meant buried inside a wall, not the earth. Pretty much identical scenario with the steel stud thing.


I'm not buying into that, electrolysis my azz. Look at every house built between 1900 & 1960 as an example. Conduit and copper are continually colliding in the basement. They rub, they touch, they are bent around each other, they are continually vibrating against each other. I do this every day and not once, not a single time have I witnessed a pinhole leak where galvanized conduit touches copper. 

Just because you were doing carpenter work and you ran across a leak doesn't mean electrolysis happened. As Keith pointed out, it requires water to make electrolysis happen. What happens on the outside of pipe is irrelevant.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

MALCO.New.York said:


> It is why Boats have "Zincs". Sacrificial elements.


No but it's the same as an anode rod. Water attacks steel when its submerged and it attacks the weaker metal such as an anode rod in a heater or in your case of the boat


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> Just because you were doing carpenter work and you ran across a leak doesn't mean electrolysis happened. As Keith pointed out, it requires water to make electrolysis happen. What happens on the outside of pipe is irrelevant.



Actually, I believe "galvanic corrosion" is the more accurate term. 

In all of these cases, the carpentry work was incidental to being called in to find and repair a leak, not the other way around. :thumbsup:

Though I didn't specifically make note of it at the time, it remembers like all of those cases involved cold water pipes, and the j-boxes in question had always been there for tens of years. The copper looked to be in great shape everywhere else.

Condensation could easily account for enough moisture to help the reaction along over time. I have no explanation for why you've never witnessed it; just relating what I've encountered.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> Actually, I believe "galvanic corrosion" is the more accurate term.
> 
> In all of these cases, the carpentry work was incidental to being called in to find and repair a leak, not the other way around. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


This is actually a pretty old discussion amongst plumbers, it always seems to come up in conversion. At the Veterans hospital in Milwaukee I spent two years ripping out distribution piping in the corridors with 20 other guys. Above the hallway ceilings there's a rats nest of conduit and copper pipe touching each other after years of additions and changes since 1962. The discussion came up often and we looked all the time where they touched. It was perfect. 

I was taught to install brass unions on water heaters so that's how I do it, it's more habit than anything. A lot of plumbers laugh at me because it's not cheap to do this. Again, it's just habit. It feels right.

But I also get to see the water heaters I replace and often times I see copper going straight into the unit. Using unions or dielectric unions are a thing of the past.....at least around here anyway.

In some states it's part of the code, right or wrong they make plumbers install them.

I have personally witnessed electrolysis in plumbing but it's very rare and I do this every day. So I'm forced to question this, it doesn't make sense to me considering all I've seen.


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## EMINNYS (Nov 29, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> Actually, I believe "galvanic corrosion" is the more accurate term.
> 
> In all of these cases, the carpentry work was incidental to being called in to find and repair a leak, not the other way around. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...



I worked for a plumber in NYC in the mid 80's. He was a great plumber, but a salty Irish guy. He used to make us laugh when he all of a sudden told a customer"The problem here is you have a galvanic reaction in the pipes" 
He would get many jobs correcting water pressure as well as water color issues. The problems were usually solved when he found a galvanized nipple or section of pipe somewhere in the plumbing system.... 
I would at least change the union to a brass or copper one.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

In regards to the original picture, ideally, shouldn't he have replaced the gate valve with a ball valve?


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

flashheatingand said:


> In regards to the original picture, ideally, shouldn't he have replaced the gate valve with a ball valve?




Personally I too prefer ball valves, but I think as long as it opens full bore gate valves are fine for the main supply line.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

flashheatingand said:


> In regards to the original picture, ideally, shouldn't he have replaced the gate valve with a ball valve?


In Milwaukee they require gate valves to prevent hammer in the system.


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## UALocal1Plumber (Jun 19, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> In Milwaukee they require gate valves to prevent hammer in the system.


Is that everywhere or just the service valve?

Keitg


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

UALocal1Plumber said:


> Is that everywhere or just the service valve?
> 
> Keitg


Before and after the meter Keith. The rest of the house doesn't matter to them. Milwaukee has major water service issues. I was given a number but I no longer remember it but a inspector told me.once how much water they lose due to leaks and it was mind blowing. I'm pretty sure water hammer was the sole reason for the gate valves. I could be wrong but I don't think so, Milwaukee is an old city with an old water system. It needs to be replaced but that's a big task and they are out of money.


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## UALocal1Plumber (Jun 19, 2009)

Same thing here. Just the water tunnels alone that come from the upstate reservoirs lose millions of gallons a day due to age and the inability to service them. The scale is difficult to imagine.

Our code calls for full open valves in a number of locations. At the service, riser valves, to the water heater, and section valves. Doesn't specify gates or balls.

Keith


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> In Milwaukee they require gate valves to prevent hammer in the system.


How do/can ball valves cause the water hammer?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

It closes quick. That's how hammer happens. Gate valves are slow


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

O.K. I can see how if the water is running, there would be a hammer up stream of the valve, but, if no running water there shouldn't be any hammer, correct?

The hammer thing can be quite disruptive?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

flashheatingand said:


> O.K. I can see how if the water is running, there would be a hammer up stream of the valve, but, if no running water there shouldn't be any hammer, correct?
> 
> The hammer thing can be quite disruptive?


Well it's just that they don't know if the water will be running I suppose. They just know if they make it policy then it's one less issue.

And yes, hammer is a BIG issue, especially in older and larger systems.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Air chambers at every outlet would eliminate the hammer concern.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Air chambers at every outlet would eliminate the hammer concern.


The concern is the city water service distribution piping underground


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> The concern is the city water service distribution piping underground


Mike, thanks for the edumuhcation. But, I have one other question: I don't know about the valves in Milwaukee, but here, the valve at the meter is some type of ball valve, so, what gives?


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Oconomowoc said:


> The concern is the city water service distribution piping underground


Then they really need to upgrade their distribution system.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

flashheatingand said:


> Mike, thanks for the edumuhcation. But, I have one other question: I don't know about the valves in Milwaukee, but here, the valve at the meter is some type of ball valve, so, what gives?


Milwaukee has serious problems with the supply. It's old, outdated, and pretty much shot. The water department is literally at the end of the rope on this, Milwaukee is old and it just hasn't been updated like other modern cities so they are taking every precaution possible. 

I've been in the steam tunnels under thee city and let me tell you it's a trip. Chit is incredibly messed up. Not only is the municipal water supply is total disarray but there's serious contamination and backflow issues. So obviously hammering in the system is a bad thing.

Some years back I read a detailed essay on water hammering in large plumbing systems and actually it was quite interesting. Inside a home it happens of course but on a smaller scale. Now imagine hammering over the length of say a mile or 2 long. It's kind of like a shockwave that grows exponentially like an earthquake in the ocean. In a large municipal system hammering is something that's continually happening.

A gate valve is unique because even if you turn it quickly it shuts very slow. A solenoid valve like on a washing machine or a dishwasher is a quick acting valve, once it gets a signal is shuts or opens in a fraction of a second......this creates a water hammer effect. A ball valve CAN be operated quickly and IF water is flowing hammer most definitely happen.

So water hammer is unidirectional, what I mean is, it bounces back and fourth until it slowly dies out. And really the home itself, when connected to a massive water supply system like a major city is small potatoes because the maximum developed length on the incoming side of the meter is only say 50-60' long? But the bounce back can be miles long under the city.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Interesting, learn something new everyday. Is that why the meter valves are such a pain to open and close?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

flashheatingand said:


> Interesting, learn something new everyday. Is that why the meter valves are such a pain to open and close?


Not sure what you mean by that


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Well, the valves are ball valves no? If they opened and closed "quickly" you would have the hammering effect. At least one would think those in the know, were aware of that situation many moons ago. So, it would make sense for them to design a valve that could readily lock, and needs to open and close slowly.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

flashheatingand said:


> Well, the valves are ball valves no? If they opened and closed "quickly" you would have the hammering effect. At least one would think those in the know, were aware of that situation many moons ago. So, it would make sense for them to design a valve that could readily lock, and needs to open and close slowly.


Hmm, I think most just don't have this issue Flash. Like in my town we put in ball valves. Valves that are stiff are just corroded from lack of use.


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