# $189 windows?



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I think I have read a couple of threads about the $189 window guys on here before. It seemed like the opinion was that they were cheap windows and that they then nickled and dimed you to death or something like that.

I just saw an article about them and discovered they are the #1 window company in the country. They install just under 100,000 windows a month, last year their sales were $270,000,000.00. They do 34% of their business from repeat and referrals. They say they have the best warranty in the business and their windows are rated as some of the best in the industry.

I was wondering if the opinions of those guys had changed, and if not what gives? These guys don't seem to fit the mold of scammers and their numbers don't seem to fit that mold either. What's the catch?


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

Mike the catch is, by the time you are done listening to the presentation, you will not want to buy a $189 dollar window, they will have up sold you to their "premium" $300 $400 or higher window. In addition the $189 usually doesn't include wrapping and other extras. If I had the volume that they do, I could easily install a decent vinyl window for close to $200


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

You believe everything you read? Did they pay to get the article written and published?

Were the gross sales and repeat customer numbers verified?

Did they lie to the writer?


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

Hey Mike just curious, do you guys replace the bathroom window as part of your bath remodel generally? Do you go with a replacement or rip the whole thing out and put in some sort of Andersen unit?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

So what exactly does that mean? Are you saying 300-400 is too much, that they are baiting and switching? Will they not install $189 windows?

If I take their numbers 270,000,000 in sales divided by they said 89,874 jobs = $3004 per job. They said they sold 850,000 windows. That equals 9.4 windows per job or an aveage of $319.00 per window.

So according to that the average window they sell cost 319.00 installed. Is that a rip off?

We rarely do windows in our remodels. Often it is a glass block, (actually acrylic block) to solve a problem like a window being in the way of where somebody wants to enlarge a shower. Also 've never installed one of those for anything close to as cheap as $300.00



> You believe everything you read? Did they pay to get the article written and published?
> 
> Were the gross sales and repeat customer numbers verified?
> 
> Did they lie to the writer?


Qualified remodeler is a pretty good trade magazine with a good reputation. If your position is it's all lies then I guess that's where it ends for you. Here is a link to the online version of the article. http://www.qualifiedremodeler.com/print/Qualified-Remodeler/The-Rise-and-Rise-of-Window-World/1$682


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> So according to that the average window they sell cost 319.00 installed. Is that a rip off?


$319 is a low end budget landlord job for us. We like to be in the $375-500 range


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Patrick said:


> $319 is a low end budget landlord job for us. We like to be in the $375-500 range


Why is that? Do you need to be $375-500 to meet your profit and overhead or because there is no way for anybody to deliver a quality window with a quality installation for less then $375-$500?


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## skylands (Dec 10, 2005)

They also stay clear of discussing the $189.00 window. They talk in terms of XXX per month. 

....."So sir, we finance with nothing down and no payments until 2009 for only xxx per month. And that would include the added charge for cladding the trim on the outside"


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> ...Qualified remodeler is a pretty good trade magazine with a good reputation. If your position is it's all lies then I guess that's where it ends for you. Here is a link to the online version of the article. http://www.qualifiedremodeler.com/print/Qualified-Remodeler/The-Rise-and-Rise-of-Window-World/1$682


It looks like an ad. It is common practice to pay for an article like that. In my industry, the most famous ad was when George Brazil bought his place in "This Old House".

You can buy an article in my local paper to say anyhting you want about your company.


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

Their upgrade window is an Alside mid range. Not a bad window, not a great window........ratings are better than an Andersen or Pella. Warranty is very good, one of the best on the market. A year ago I sold the same window for $415-$535.

I applaud them for running their ship on such tight margins.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

High pressure presentation and bait and switch sale. I wonder what percentage of closed contracts were deposit checks written after presentation?


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

I did a home show a few weeks ago, the $1000 (Champion and Schuco)vinyl window guys were grousing about the $189 window guys. They were both there selling windows.
I've been doing this for over 30 years and I could not see much difference between the windows. I agree they probably sell most windows for $300 to $400 when you add Low-E. Argon, haul away old windows ect. But if you read that magazine article many of the people who bought that franchise are very happy with their income. I have installed Certainteed, Silver Line, Gorel and a few others (Vinyl Windows) and never could see a big difference in the all vinyl windows.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

I rarely do vinyl window installs, but some of them are very cheap to buy and if you install fast and the frame is a good one, you can do many of them in a day. say they charge 300 to install the average double hung window, including he cost of the window, say they got the vinyl window at a huge discount because of nationwide volume and it costs them 120 bucks to buy, they take 20-30 minutes max per window, they are still making ok money per window to install. it's not my cup of tea to do vinyl because most jobs we do the windows are 500-2000 a piece just to buy. and i charge anywhere from 400-1000 for install of each window, all depends on size, trim detail both interior and exterior. There is pretty good money in window replacement, imo, and it's super labor intensive. I do the whole frame though most of the time, not replacement. one job i did about 5 years ago, we did 20 marvin tiltpac windows in just over a day. i charged the guy back then, a 100 bucks per window to install, plus the cost of the window. for me and one helper, we had them down to like 20 minutes or less per window. 
the ideal house for replacement windows is a 50-70s rancher. when you get into really old houses, they frames are either shot or so out of plumb and square that it's better to just rip it out and start from scratch, plus the people end up with some insulation around it then.


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## Chazbe (Apr 13, 2007)

I used them this last summer to replace 7 windows in a flip house. Used the $189 window. They charged an extra $25.00 to wrap the exterior frames with trim coil. All in all the windows seemed pretty decent and the install was ok. Not the best but I'm sure not the worst either.

They operate on the low price-high volume business model. The other model is the high price-low volume one. Both are valid and you see them all the time in real life. Look at the $15 jeans at Wal-Mart or the $200 jeans from some fancy designer at some specialty store. 50 cent Bud draft night at the local watering hole or $5.00 per glass at the ritzy club downtown. 
Chuck


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

I used them this last summer to replace 7 windows in a flip house. Used the $189 window. They charged an extra $25.00 to wrap the exterior frames with trim coil. All in all the windows seemed pretty decent and the install was ok. Not the best but I'm sure not the worst either.

Hey Chazbe,how professional were their installers? 
Were they company employees or subs?


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## Chazbe (Apr 13, 2007)

They were subs. The owner said he stays really busy doing just the window work. Both guys were courteous and professional, cleaned up well after the job was done. Since the house was under demolition/construction at the time I wasn't too concerned with some minor debris being left but they did a good job.


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

We've done the whole house at $200 a window. I usually do Phillips at that price or for a little more Certainteed. I get the window (Phillips) for $110, already has low E and argon I believe. One of my guys is really good at these, done hundreds, maybe thousands. This is only on old single hungs or double hung retrofits , but he can run through and replace these in about 15-30 min per window from demo to caulk. He can usually do the whole house in a day.

Just did one since we were already there doing a dormer addition. 16 windows, all old double hungs, took him 7 hours.

3,400. for job
1,800 for windows and other materials
375 for manpower
75 approx overhead
50 misc
______
1,100 left over. I was happy with that.

This ONLY works with really easy retro fits!


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## Home Serve (Apr 26, 2007)

wackman said:


> We've done the whole house at $200 a window. I usually do Phillips at that price or for a little more Certainteed. I get the window (Phillips) for $110, already has low E and argon I believe. One of my guys is really good at these, done hundreds, maybe thousands. This is only on old single hungs or double hung retrofits , but he can run through and replace these in about 15-30 min per window from demo to caulk. He can usually do the whole house in a day.
> 
> Just did one since we were already there doing a dormer addition. 16 windows, all old double hungs, took him 7 hours.
> 
> ...


Interesting post here at 200 per window. I'm impressed that this guy can set that many windows in 7 hours first off. Your lucky to have a guy with that kind of hustle and skill.
Thing would concern me is say you did this everyday with subs like window world does. Two crews 32 windows day, 160 week, say 50 weeks that's 8000 windows a year say do this 4-5 years man that's one bunch of windows with YOUR NAME ON THEM!!! Say there are few problems with the window itself or the installations that were done. It would take a big pile of money for me to want my name on that many windows these days! I like to sleep at night.
What then?
Dave


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

He's got one of the best work ethics I've ever seen, plus his quality is high. The trick is to getting the windows just the right size. If they're too small or the window is out of square then you gotta start shaving and that's where it can bog down. *Too* big and it's sloppy. Often the windows show up wrong or even damaged.


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## Tmrrptr (Mar 22, 2007)

Recently, here in CA, we were the painter, on a tract that had leaking windows on 80 homes.

Personally, I would NOT want to go through that much aggravation!
r


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

Tmrrptr said:


> Recently, here in CA, we were the painter, on a tract that had leaking windows on 80 homes.
> 
> Personally, I would NOT want to go through that much aggravation!
> r


That'd be a bummer. Retros are so straight forward and installed from the inside that if there's a leak it's a 99% chance that it's the building or the old opening and has nothing to do with a new window. It would have leaked regardless.

I guess we have liability with everything we do in someone's house right? That's why we make the big bucks.:laughing:

Wack


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

i would be worried about so many other things than my name being on replacement vinyl windows. 
wackman, you definitely have a good guy. if i run into no problems like you stated above, then I could get one done in the same time frame, but i'm the owner so i like to hustle. to get an employee to do the same, is really saying something. let me know if he can be cloned because kids these days are given everything and don't know what work ethic is, or what hustling is either. it's really ashame. when i started, i always hustled whether I thought I'd be in this business on my own or not, iwanted to learn. 
ok. back to the subject.......


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

I've been trying to figure out a great incentive system. I've used them before but it's harder with remodels. The trick is finding a way to pay them based on performance (not just speed or quality will suffer) but also make it fairly simple. I don't want to trade their performance improvement for more work at figuring their pay because I have some complicated system.

If anyone has a good system for incentive based pay on a remodel I'd like to hear it.

In fact maybe I'll start a thread about that, let me search it first.


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## CurtissGroup (Jul 31, 2007)

We recently had them replace 28 large double hung windows in our house with their upgraded double pane Alside window. It was a no pressure sale and the out the door wrapped price was $308 per window (tax included) with a 1 time transferable lifetime warranty. We signed up for their free 6 month financing also but you need to plan to pay it off before 6 months because the rate is not that great if you don't  

Keep in mind, as I understand it, these are mostly locally owned franchises and I am sure each one will have it's pros and cons. I did a lot of reference checking before I signed on because it seemed too good to be true compared to the other estimates.

It has been 4 months and now that it is getting colder I am very pleased with the windows performance and installation. We did get lucky as we had some really good installers on our job.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Home Serve said:


> Thing would concern me is say you did this everyday with subs like window world does. Two crews 32 windows day, 160 week, say 50 weeks that's 8000 windows a year say do this 4-5 years man that's one bunch of windows with YOUR NAME ON THEM!!! Say there are few problems with the window itself or the installations that were done. It would take a big pile of money for me to want my name on that many windows these days! I like to sleep at night.
> What then?
> Dave


Only if you find your subs based on $$$ and nothing else.
If you find a good sub and treat them right (as in they want to make money too) you won't have to worry about losing sleep.


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

silvertree said:


> I have installed Certainteed, Silver Line, Gorel and a few others (Vinyl Windows) and never could see a big difference in the all vinyl windows.


And you won't. They are all the same. You are replacing crap with shiny crap. Go to the box store, get your $120 window, slap it in, caulk it, then bam everyones happy. You made 100 bucks an hour, your customer saves her 10 bucks per month on utilities and loves the fact that she can tilt in clean (once 'cause that's all the only time the lazy broad will do it). Gotta love the vinyl window game. It's almost as exhilerating as the vinyl siding carnival.


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## Remodel Bud (Aug 13, 2008)

................


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I have recently bought some of the 189 dollar replacement windows from a national company called Window World. One way they get you is on the wrap. Cheap window, but 60 dollars for each wrap, up to three bends per side. Mind you, 60 dollars per window is fair enough, but compared to the 189 dollar window, that's a lot of dough. The installers (subs) were mad at everyone around from the minute they showed up, and verbally trashed the company the whole time they were at the property. 

I was impressed that they were using Window World private brand labeled caulking. Weird. They were using some really nice poly coated coil stock.


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## 415moto (Jun 6, 2006)

These are retrofit windows? Or full fin, new construction windows?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

415moto said:


> These are retrofit windows? Or full fin, new construction windows?


The one's I got were replacement windows, to go in a 1950's concrete block house. The place did have wood sub-bucks, though.


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## W-Tinc (Feb 15, 2008)

The $189 window is $200 after tax/delivery and is a decent window, its just cafeteria style pricing. They'll get another $50ish for a wrap and $50ish again for low E/argon glass. There is also an upcharge for anything but a simple wood out install. Its a brilliant idea, I bet alot of owners are getting rich.

The main problem I see with those type companies is with such low prices they don't pay anyone very much...sub for sears/HD/Lowes your going to make $80ish per window. Sub for WW/Clear choice etc. your going to get paid $40ish per window...generally speaking a guy with a nice truck/trailer/tools and experience is not going to work for them.

Actually one way they hire is to advertise for trim carpenters unhappy with their current hourly wage and get them to become subs, takes awhile for most people to realize they are losing money at those rates as a sub.

Not to say you won't get a good install because you very well may.

Another thing to consider is that companies who get their business by splashing the papers with lots of cheap prices get alot of calls, referals from happy customers isn't a big part of their marketing plan.

Like someone else said they are individually owned, you may be in an area where they are wonderful, or not. 

Also for the people saying all vinyl windows are equal that is just silly...they do all look similar but there are huge differences in the extrusion thickness, glass thickness/options, hardware function/quality, and manufacturing practices/tolerances.

Try installing a few low budget replacement windows from a company that makes mostly new construction products then install a few from one of the companies that specialize in replacement products and you will see a huge difference.


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## 415moto (Jun 6, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> The one's I got were replacement windows, to go in a 1950's concrete block house. The place did have wood sub-bucks, though.


Ah, it seems like this thread is in regards to retrofit/remodel windows in block or brick openings. For 200$ a window, that would be alot of work to remove siding/stucco and flash correctly, set and finish, for that price.


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

These 2 windows, completely rotted sill and vert stops. Referral job. My bid to replace with like twin, pvc frame / wood sash, R & R siding, felt or Tyvek, proper flashing $1700.

Window World came in and replaced all 6 windows in the sunroom and just covered up the damage with coil for the same price.


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## Carport King (Jan 7, 2008)

*Windows And Marketing With A Twist!*

Remodel Bud gets it fellows and the rest are not listening! It's all about the marketing.

Everything you buy today has an upgrade. Think about it ? Chevy or Caddy?

Line level or a Laser? S10 or F150 it's a Florida thing!

We sell 3 grades of windows because of the economy right now. But the window we sell the most of is our vinyl frame impact Florida low e cardinal glass for $900-1200 each.

Most window replacements are $15-25,000 each. Plus we have glass sliding doors that sale for over $10,000 each. Hey it's a Florida thing!

So get with the marketing thing and I would warm up to Remodel Bud and take notice. The man walks the walk.:notworthy


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

Carport King said:


> Remodel Bud gets it fellows and the rest are not listening! It's all about the marketing.
> 
> Everything you buy today has an upgrade. Think about it ? Chevy or Caddy?
> 
> ...


Bet it is tough to compete qith those kind of prices


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## Carport King (Jan 7, 2008)

Brock said:


> Bet it is tough to compete qith those kind of prices


Not really because the way we market and we are top in sales in our area with impact windows sales. In Florida you almost need to upgrade to impact just to get/keep insurance. It's a Florida thing!


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