# VCT over VCT



## lifestooshort81 (Sep 8, 2012)

Hey Folks,
I have a customer that needs a new floor installed in a day care. There is currently VCT on a concrete slab but it's looking a bit shabby. There are a FEW places where the tile looks "loose" but I have not confirmed this. I measured the job and inspected it but didn't try lifting tiles. Assuming they are ALL stuck down well, is it possible to lay a new and cleaner looking VCT floor over an existing VCT floor? What do I need to do to prepare the floor prior? If there are loose tiles how should I proceed in working around these? 

My plan was to remove any loose tiles if there were any and fill them in the void with a flashing or floor patch. Then after cleaning the flooor well with a scotch brite and maybe a solvent cleaner or wax remover coat the floor with "stixs" floor adhesive. Then lay the new floor. 

Any thoughts, input, tips, etc are greatly appreciated. 

Thanks!

EDIT: if anyone can recommend a different/better/alternative flooring I'm open to suggestions. I know they don't want ceramic tile or carpet so that really only leaves VCT. Sheet vinyl won't work because it's a high traffic area and I don't want to deal with seams.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Overlaying VCT is very common in the the commercial world, although I think it's hard to get the manufacturer to warranty the new install.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

LVT or luxury vinyl are big around here now. They are zero maintenance, and look better than VCT. 

I don't know about going over existing VCT, I would think you would have to strip it really well first.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

slowsol said:


> Overlaying VCT is very common in the the commercial world, although I think it's hard to get the manufacturer to warranty the new install.


Realistically who uses the manufacturers warranty and if they do how often does the manufacturer "find" an issue so that they do not have to cover the warranty?

Lay it and forget it.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

You can put vcty over vct no problem, but lvt is supplanting vct in those types of applications because of maintenance costs.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Realistically who uses the manufacturers warranty and if they do how often does the manufacturer "find" an issue so that they do not have to cover the warranty?
> 
> Lay it and forget it.


Warranties are used much more often in commercial than in residential. You'll really hope you stick to the warranty when you install 30,000 sf of a product. That's when the real fights happen.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Realistically who uses the manufacturers warranty and if they do how often does the manufacturer "find" an issue so that they do not have to cover the warranty?
> 
> Lay it and forget it.



Welcome to commercial.... You're out of business.


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

I would use click and lock laminate or c&l cork flooring. Specially cork flooring will suit for day care. But if the budget is tight then laminate will work.


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## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

Yes, VCT goes over a secure existing VCT quite well. Strip the wax/finish first AND THEN sand the existing well. Remove any loose tiles and either replace them or float it with patch. With all the finish removed and the floor cleaned thoroughly a good quality patch will bond well over any cracks, voids or imperfections that need minor patch. If there's areas to skim coat completely I'd use a primer.

Because VCT is about your cheapest flooring choice it's fairly low risk. Laying higher end goods I want the existing torn out or a well written waiver. It's much less porous if not non-porous so you may have a nice well performing VCT floor BECAUSE some marginal moisture issues are just within tolerance. The second layer of VCT does create some additional moisture concerns. Those concerns are more considerable and more expensive with more expensive and less porous products.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

slowsol said:


> Warranties are used much more often in commercial than in residential. You'll really hope you stick to the warranty when you install 30,000 sf of a product. *That's when the real fights happen*.


How many commercial jobs have you done?

How many have had warranty issues?

How did the manufacturer cover the issue?

And I think that you proved my point. Why should I have to fight if I have properly installed it? That is what I meant good luck, the manufacturer is going to find any reason not to cover.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

mrcharles said:


> Welcome to commercial.... You're out of business.


How do you figure?


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> How many commercial jobs have you done?
> Individually or as a company? $90 million gross last year. I'd guess about $10 million of it was flooring. You do the math.
> 
> 
> ...


You're missing the bigger point. 9 times out of 10, the spec book tells you the warranty that is needed on the flooring. If you don't follow the manufacturer's approved methods and recomendations, you don't get the warranty. You are then not completing the work to meet the specifications. You are not only at risk for future floor failures, you've also just violated the terms of your contract with the owner. 

Not sure how much commercial work you have done, but the name of the game is avoiding liability for problems. You do this by following manufacturer's approved methods, following the plans and specs, and writing good subcontracts.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

slowsol said:


> You're missing the bigger point. 9 times out of 10, the spec book tells you the warranty that is needed on the flooring. If you don't follow the manufacturer's approved methods and recomendations, you don't get the warranty. You are then not completing the work to meet the specifications. You are not only at risk for future floor failures, you've also just violated the terms of your contract with the owner.
> 
> Not sure how much commercial work you have done, but the name of the game is avoiding liability for problems. You do this by following manufacturer's approved methods, following the plans and specs, and writing good subcontracts.


Just because you don't follow the specs doesn't mean that it is not a properly installed floor or at risk for future failures. Often manufacturers require you to use all of their proprietary products or you void the warranty. I choose to install using the methods that I know work. If that means I void the warranty, so be it.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Just because you don't follow the specs doesn't mean that it is not a properly installed floor or at risk for future failures. Often manufacturers require you to use all of their proprietary products or you void the warranty. I choose to install using the methods that I know work. If that means I void the warranty, so be it.


Ok. That's your option. My point to the original poster was that overlaying VCT may not let him get a warranty from the manufacturer. If he chooses, as you do, that he doesn't need the warranty, then that's fine. I was just informing.:thumbsup:


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## lifestooshort81 (Sep 8, 2012)

slowsol said:


> Ok. That's your option. My point to the original poster was that overlaying VCT may not let him get a warranty from the manufacturer. If he chooses, as you do, that he doesn't need the warranty, then that's fine. I was just informing.:thumbsup:


So this being said, I most likely will not use the manufacturers branded products so my warranty will be voided... Which leads me to this question: what brand/type/etc. adhesive would YOU recommend using over the existing, clean, properly prepared old VCT floor?


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## ernesto (Apr 11, 2011)

You also need to overlay the seams of the old vct. Any bump or dent in the old vct will transfer through to the new. 

Plus, over concrete is where many double vct jobs fail. This is due to the fact that the one layer of vct breathes easily between the seams. Once you over lay the seams it traps in lots of moisture that would other wise vent out of the old seams. 

An ASTM F-2170-11 test is in order here.


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

slowsol said:


> How many commercial jobs have you done?
> Individually or as a company? $90 million gross last year. I'd guess about $10 million of it was flooring. You do the math.


Wow...I feel like I am wrestling with giants:blink::blink:





Just kidding around!:laughing: Nice to see someone making my annual gross sales in a week.


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## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

ernesto said:


> You also need to overlay the seams of the old vct. Any bump or dent in the old vct will transfer through to the new.
> 
> Plus, over concrete is where many double vct jobs fail. This is due to the fact that the one layer of vct breathes easily between the seams. Once you over lay the seams it traps in lots of moisture that would other wise vent out of the old seams.
> 
> An ASTM F-2170-11 test is in order here.


**********************
I know what you meant by overlay but *offset* would be a clearer term. Going even further to clarify, although probably overkill *DO NOT ALIGN THE SEAMS OF THE TILE ON TO WITH THAT BELOW*. Shift the layout at least a few inches in either direction on all seams. 

I frequently see problems on the 2nd layer for the reasons you explain but typically is small, localized problems-------not real easy to repair though because both layers now have to come up. 

I don't believe any LVT manufacturers will approve their glue down (as opposed to Konecto/floaters) over existing VCT for this precise reason.


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## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

lifestooshort81 said:


> So this being said, I most likely will not use the manufacturers branded products so my warranty will be voided... Which leads me to this question: what brand/type/etc. adhesive would YOU recommend using over the existing, clean, properly prepared old VCT floor?


*************************
There's not a great deal of quality issues from any of the major brands, the tile, glue or patch are all gong to work fine from my experience for any small scale project. If you were buying millions of square feet then some slight distinctions do matter. 


The issues I see with any aspect of VCT are 95-99% related to sloppy installation or piss poor maintenance. 

http://www.rfci.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28&Itemid=37

Pretty sure Armstrong is still the "standard" the rest of the industry would compare themselves to. You know when the competition claims-----"this is JUST AS GOOD as XYZ" --------Chances are you ought to just go buy XYZ.

XYZ is always your best bet.


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## spazman (Feb 16, 2012)

Have you checked into using a floating vinyl plank. The stuff I have installed locks together and installs a lot like a wood laminate floor and stands up to moisture better than wood laminate and shouldn't telegraph the floor underneath. It is probably going to be more costly than vct. I'm not sure about commercial applications so be sure to check into that. I have only installed it in residential, some of them rentals and the landlord likes it.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

I was told that it was illegal for a manufacturer of a product to require the use of their adhesive in order for the product to be warrantied,


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## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

MIKE ANTONETTI said:


> I was told that it was illegal for a manufacturer of a product to require the use of their adhesive in order for the product to be warrantied,


It is illegal, but they try to do it anyway.


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

DO NOT ALIGN SEAMS.. THAT IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE SAID. Fix broken tiles skim coat with webcrete 95 after stripping wax finish. I recommend self leveling over patching compound, i find it to be less dusty and the finish is much cleaner.


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## lifestooshort81 (Sep 8, 2012)

It turns out the customer only wants the bathroom done, this is maybe 100 sq feet? 

So that being said, I think I'm going to remove the old tile down the concrete. 

What is the process from here? How can I clean and prepare the floor? What brand / type of glue should I use? What do I use to remove the old adhesive? 

Thanks


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## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

lifestooshort81 said:


> It turns out the customer only wants the bathroom done, this is maybe 100 sq feet?
> 
> So that being said, I think I'm going to remove the old tile down the concrete.
> 
> ...


**********************
For the tile: 

No. 230 Deluxe Scraper
• 68" stand up design
• Heavy-duty
• 2" wide blade

http://www.craintools.com/fs-tear-outtools.html

For the glue:
No. 350 12" Floor Stripper
No. 360 20" Pro Stripper
• 3 screw blade holder
• Rounded end rubber grip
• Standard 4" blade

Float flat and skim coat smooth with this: 

http://www.ardex.com/productDetail.asp?ContentParentID=2&ProductCategoryID=19&ProductID=65

If you need to make a CLEAN straight cut through the existing VCT in the door to meet back with the old tile heat it up with a propane torch just enough so as not to scorch or burn and using a NEW utility blade and straight edge cut in the middle of the door. (directly UNDER the door)


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

If you've never used a torch for this before and you're worried about the scorching you can use a heat gun instead.


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