# Wtf?



## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

I have noticed several posts in the last week or so that bother me. They bother me because they involve a person new to CT being harrassed. It usually goes something like this..OP asks a pricing question or other seemingly HO type question. Then the fun starts. Next someone with over 1000 posts decides it must be a HO asking and starts in on them.It's natural to want to ask pricing questions if you are new to your business. The responses given to these type questions are mostly belittling and small minded comments. I mean c'mon guys if you don't have somethin nice to say shut up..at least stop acting so high and mighty.If you think the post is from a ho or its stupid then just don't answer. i


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

Like this one?

http://www.contractortalk.com/f3/3-1-4-baseboard-meets-1-1-2-vertical-trim-what-angle-110910/

One guy posting an emote of a guy holding a flag and the OP snapped. Everyone else in the thread offered good advice. OP? Well, he split. It was never his intention to add anything to this forum, just to stop in, get the answer to his question and then be on his merry way.


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## detroit687 (Sep 4, 2008)

summithomeinc said:


> I have noticed several posts in the last week or so that bother me. They bother me because they involve a person new to CT being harrassed. It usually goes something like this..OP asks a pricing question or other seemingly HO type question. Then the fun starts. Next someone with over 1000 posts decides it must be a HO asking and starts in on them.It's natural to want to ask pricing questions if you are new to your business. The responses given to these type questions are mostly belittling and small minded comments. I mean c'mon guys if you don't have somethin nice to say shut up..at least stop acting so high and mighty.If you think the post is from a ho or its stupid then just don't answer. i


The cyber bullying has got to stop the poor contractors crying themselves to sleep


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## detroit687 (Sep 4, 2008)

WildWill said:


> Like this one?
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f3/3-1-4-baseboard-meets-1-1-2-vertical-trim-what-angle-110910/
> 
> One guy posting an emote of a guy holding a flag and the OP snapped. Everyone else in the thread offered good advice. OP? Well, he split. It was never his intention to add anything to this forum, just to stop in, get the answer to his question and then be on his merry way.


Everyone offered good advice except summit who was just as clueless as the op 
I prefer to read threads and posts from real contractors there are diy sites out there


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

I have pretty thick skin. I try not to lay into people unless they look me up. Then I don't care who you are. If you think I am going to be the one wearing lipstick carrying a box of chocolate and flowers. You better think twice. :laughing:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

summithomeinc said:


> I have noticed several posts in the last week or so that bother me. They bother me because they involve a person new to CT being harrassed. It usually goes something like this..OP asks a pricing question or other seemingly HO type question. Then the fun starts. Next someone with over 1000 posts decides it must be a HO asking and starts in on them.It's natural to want to ask pricing questions if you are new to your business. The responses given to these type questions are mostly belittling and small minded comments. I mean c'mon guys if you don't have somethin nice to say shut up..at least stop acting so high and mighty.If you think the post is from a ho or its stupid then just don't answer. i


Yeah and folks shouldn't drink and drive or belittle their kids or shop lift....

It's the internet. It's full of great advice but that comes with the slew of BS needed to dig through to find it. 

If you come to the world wide web seeking free advice for a project you're going to charge money for, that advice is only worth the price charged; none. 

If someone comes here and asks a question about staining a poplar door, it's a basic but reasonable question. If someone comes here and wants to know how much to charge to hang a door, it's not a reasonable question. Some questions are borderline (especially to a seasoned pro) and other questions will be belittle by the ever-present trolls. That's just life on a free forum requesting free advice.

This forum is way more good than bad so I propose to you; if you don't like what you're reading, move on to the next post. There are plenty more.

No one here is going to discover the holy grail answer to contracting nor supply the meaning of life (sorry to disappoint).

We're not everyone's cup of tea but we are a vast database of knowledge from _some_ of the most experienced pros in the business.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

I was bad.....................Once. I apologize.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

This forum is way more good than bad so I propose to you; if you don't like what you're reading, move on to the next post. There are plenty more.

This is the same thing I'm saying.So what is the need for all the BS that goes with it?


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

summithomeinc said:


> This forum is way more good than bad so I propose to you; if you don't like what you're reading, move on to the next post. There are plenty more.
> 
> This is the same thing I'm saying.So what is the need for all the BS that goes with it?


Some people just have a bad day. I'm sure some time in your life you found your inner a-hole and let someone have it, unnecessarily. 

I understand, no one truly wants to get ripped, we all want to sit around the campfire and sing kum bay ya, and we all want someone to help us with something that we truly are over our heads on. We all started at zero. "Please help"

If it is a HO, they belong at our DIY sister site, not here. So please everyone, just hit the report button. If you think a response is unwarranted, please hit the report button. We, as moderators, get instantaneous notification and we discuss whether to do anything with it or not. 

And some people are just too thin skinned for here. 

Plus it's the internet. The intonation of what is typed typically does not convey the intentions fully.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

Anyone who ask a pricing question has no business doing business. 
A guy who has all the proper insurance and legal paperwork involved with having his own business is more then likely dedicated enough to know what he needs to make on a job. He is also going to know that not only do prices vary regionally but can also vary drastically right in the town or city he conducts most of his business. There is no one size fits all pricing and a real contractor running a real business would know this. 
Now the guy who does come to the Internet looking for info on what to charge, well he is probably some form of hack. He normally will have no insurance, licensing, or any other things to identify himself as a real contractor. He is more then likely a person who if in the trades hasnt been there for long, possibly looking for side work. Or he is a Craigslist handyman type who does shoddy work but believes he should be getting premium prices just like the big boys. 
Knowing what to charge for the services you provide and not trying to charge and perform services you are not qualified to do is day one stuff. 
You could sit here and pamper the hacks and talk nice to them, in return they will take your pricing info you gave them, cut it in half and go underbid a real contractor while telling the homeowner they are so cheap because they have no overhead.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Summit,

Thank you for bringing this topic up. I agree with you and this is ongoing problem here and it must stop. Some people just don't understand this is not a place to come and have fun when you see stupidity. Even I remember going to bed and crying myself to sleep after I put someone in theirs place when they asked "how to remove a bearing wall in someones house, because they never did this work and HO didn't want to hire an architect" or close to that. I still cannot for give myself for not giving him the instructions how to remove that wall.

So I will say "Forgive me father for I have sinned" I will try to be more understanding when HO or Hacks ask such questions. 

As the price questions goes, there is a CT annual set price and that is "Tree Fiddy per SF" I think it should be posted at the entrance :whistling and you cannot blame fellow contractors here for not helping these people with <What should I charge> questions, you would have to bring this up with Moderators, they do such a good job at closing <Price Question posts>, that fellow contractors don't have the time to help these people to estimate theirs jobs and do the work that they should be doing. Shame on them. Not to mention all the fun I had helping them and watch others how egger they were to help them...God help us... what is this place coming too :laughing:


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## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

I would think that at some point in EVERYONE'S journey, we question our pricing structure, and look to validate our numbers.

I did jobs for many years using the "going rate" mentality of pricing, with little concern about profitability. My thought was as I get more efficient, I would make more money.

Thanks to CT and others, I know how to figure my own numbers based on my costs and needs, BUT I spent many hours here and there, in this book and that book before I really "got it".

If "pricing, estimating, and success" was a sticky on my first day, I doubt the thread would have changed my pricing structure, or eliminated my pricing insecurities overnight. 

I agree that if a member with a legit profile, and enough posts to establish his position asks an inappropriate question, a bit of courtesy wouldnt hurt.


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## Mrmac204 (Dec 27, 2006)

I think to abandon a perceived innapropriate post would be just as effective as negative reponses.

If no one answers a particular post, the OP will most likely give up and move on.

I made that infamous first post here way back - "how much" and I go slammed. It didnt' feel very good, but I got the message. However I never want anyone else to feel bullied, so I do not join in on the negative posts.

I like the post that the moderators use to close a discussion, it's to the point, respectful, polite yet firm. The same way you treat your customers.

It is very easy to mis-understand a person's point by reading their posts, without the benefit of seeing their body language.

I do react strongly to some posts, however I wait a bit before responding, think a bit, and if it's worth replying to then do so with a non-aggressive style. Why beat people up? what's the motivation? if you don't like it, move on.

I am not saying that you have to suffer fools! I am saying just ignore them. You've got better things to do. Or allow the moderators to guide them into the hinterlands.

Ok, nuff of the touchy feely stuff, I gotta go outside now and choke a moose for breakfast


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## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

I think my head hurts from reading all the threads about grown men complaining the internet isn't fair.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Cole82 said:


> I think my head hurts from reading all the threads about grown men complaining the internet isn't fair.


I agree. What are they like on the job site?


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

angus242 said:


> This forum is way more good than bad so I propose to you; if you don't like what you're reading, move on to the next post. There are plenty more.


That pretty much sums it up. 
You are under no obligation to respond to every post on this site.
If you are looking for an answer realize that some will respond with a goofy remark, some will respond with highly technical jargon, and some will respond with plain "street" talk. It's your question so wade through the answers and get what you want out of them.
Life is short, move on.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Summit, I agree with you that this forum can be rough at times. But like others have said, it's the internet. I'm not sure why some go overboard and beat a poster up for asking what they perceive as a stupid question. I think often people treat others they way they where treated, so I assume they were bullied at one time or another and this is their time to get even.

I have nothing to prove, I don't know everything and have so much to learn. And, until my knowledge bank is full I'll be glad to share what I know in hopes someone will share what they know with me.

I believe knowing how to do something doesn't make you able to do it. There's plenty of great framing contractors on this site that even if they told me their secrets and how too's, I'd still not be able to produce the work they do. They have that "thing" that makes them who they are. And the same goes for everyone, finishers, tile guys, roofers, etc. If the finished product was solely based on "how to do it", I'd think anyone could pick up a "how to" book, read it and get those results. The truth is, it's not. You have to have the secret ingredient that can't be learned in a book, from reading posts on the internet, etc. You either have it or you don't. If you have it and spend the time on the tools to hone it, you'll eventually have that secret ingredient that makes you great and sought-after.

_(jb is now getting down off the soapbox and slipping quietly away._


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## actionman (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm new here and just starting out. I wouldn't ask a pricing a question because first- no one can answer that and two I feel I need to learn for myself for keeping records and coming up with my own system.

That said I AM just doing side jobs right now trying to get to the point where I can do this full time. I do have experience in the trades, have license, insurance, etc... and do not low ball prices. I know some guys don't like that fact that I may be only doing side jobs right now to get started and if they want to bust my ba##@ that fine. IMO one of the best things about the WWW is freedom to express opinions and sometimes it take a good ba##@ busting to help you see the truth or a differnet perspective on things.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

actionman said:


> I know some guys don't like that fact that I may be only doing side jobs right now to get started and if they want to bust my ba##@ that fine.


 Aside from the ones who had a family business handed down to them, Probably everybody has started with "side jobs". That's how you find out if you can cut it or not.


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## actionman (Jan 5, 2012)

TimNJ said:


> Aside from the ones who had a family business handed down to them, Probably everybody has started with "side jobs". That's how you find out if you can cut it or not.


Yeah, that's what I figure. It's just seems that some guys think that that is being a hack or lowballer or whatever. The fact is I have a mortgage, young daughter, and bills like everyone else so I can't just justify quiting my full time job at this point but hopefully down the road..


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Acres said:


> Not true when owning and operating a business, one doesn't even need to know the field there operating in AT ALL.. But You HAVE TO KNOW THE NUMBERS.. It's ALL numbers..Inches, feet, cubic yards, sqft, time's, travel, gas prices, cogs, on and on.. I don't think there's one meaningless number (maybe mundane) in business..


Perhaps we're saying the same thing? When I say meaningless numbers, I mean my numbers mean nothing to you and vice versa. $7/sq ft from a tiler in Montana translate to absolutely nothing to me. I have no idea what's included, what materials are being used, what discount structure they have with their suppliers, etc. 4 hours to install 12x12 porcelain over a properly structured subfloor means a bit more but is still mostly irrelevant to me. What if that same scenario takes me 5 hours? 

You can show me your "numbers" all day long and they do not translate to my business at all. Now if we discuss how you come up with your numbers, that peaks interest. Maybe I've been missing an aspect of pricing you just made me aware of. Maybe I had been putting too much percentage on overhead, not enough on profit....

I will discuss what business expenses are all day with you. What I care nothing about is the numbers you attach to all of those expenses because we don't have similar costs.


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> What I care nothing about is the numbers you attach to all of those expenses because we don't have similar costs.


Of course we would.. Are cost of goods should be extremely close, if are business is the same same field, were one man op's then are business expenses should be darn close. I found that nearly all landscapers in my area and surronding parts charge pretty darn close to each other relative to there "weight" class, the market place eventually weeds out the oddballs so it only makes sense that everyones relatively close. I can always tell how someone operates around here just by what there charging in my field. IE just making it by, illegal, overpriced, right where they should be. what your charging can say alot about an area, how your operating, why your operating at that level and what direction your business might be heading. Again I want to repeat that this does not matter to me but, I have always found it very interesting that money is not discussed, esp seeing how this board is large and it would be very easy to find someone in the correct area, state even town to awnser insightfully.. I wouldn't awser a pricing question for someone in Texas.. That There's no absolute awnser isn't the problem for us to decide but what the poster gained from those awnsers.. Like awnsering any question, your going to give the poster a direction or idea... thanks for entertaining my posts, I will not continue the pricing disc it's been done ad neaseum:blink:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Acres said:


> Of course we would..


Why would we? And please note, I'm not trying to be argumentative here.

Since you're in landscaping, I'll use that as an example.

Company A is very large, has many corporate clients and does a lot of volume.

Company B is small, does only residential and is struggling.

Do the 2 companies have similar advertising budgets? Company A has billboards. Company B uses Craigslist.

What percentage of each job does each company put towards equipment maintenance (small engine work)? Company B has an in-house maintenance crew. Company B uses a retired car mechanic on the side. 

What are the accounting expenses for each? Company A uses a CPA firm. Company B uses their brother in law's Turbo Tax software.

What are the fleet costs? Company A has 5 2011 Ford F-450's with a Ford Fleet maintenance program. Company B Uses a 1999 Chevy 2500 and wrenches on his own.

What are the workman's comp costs? Company A has 35 employees. Company B uses 2 guys seasonally. 

What about seasonal concerns? Company A works in the snow belt. Company B is the Southwest and doesn't offer any snow removal.

Can you honestly expect me to believe these 2 owners can talk numbers that mean something to each other?


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

Acres said:


> Of course we would.. Are cost of goods should be extremely close, if are business is the same same field, were one man op's then are business expenses should be darn close. I found that nearly all landscapers in my area and surronding parts charge pretty darn close to each other relative to there "weight" class, the market place eventually weeds out the oddballs so it only makes sense that everyones relatively close. I can always tell how someone operates around here just by what there charging in my field. IE just making it by, illegal, overpriced, right where they should be. what your charging can say alot about an area, how your operating, why your operating at that level and what direction your business might be heading. Again I want to repeat that this does not matter to me but, I have always found it very interesting that money is not discussed, esp seeing how this board is large and it would be very easy to find someone in the correct area, state even town to awnser insightfully.. I wouldn't awser a pricing question for someone in Texas.. That There's no absolute awnser isn't the problem for us to decide but what the poster gained from those awnsers.. Like awnsering any question, your going to give the poster a direction or idea... thanks for entertaining my posts, I will not continue the pricing disc it's been done ad neaseum:blink:


Exactly my point. How can you compare profit margins between a retired gentleman who has a push mower and a truck to a company with 15 employees, commercial insurance, advertisement, web site etc.

Without trying to sound argumentitive, even in the landscaping trade, its hard to compare apples to oranges with any accuracy. Thats why its hard to set some standard set price across the board.




jb4211 said:


> tree fiddy:laughing::laughing::laughing:


No deal. The lady here now gives me 3 squares and a little nook. :whistling


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

onthelevel said:


> Yes HO's sometimes deserve some b.s. especially if they ask a really stupid question.
> But we have to be a little more friendly to the newbie contractors. Show them they don't know anything but don't be big jerks. It can be done in a diplomatic fashion.


+1

I can't help but have respect for ANY *Contractor* who asks a question. He's admitting to all of us that he doesn't know something and is asking for help. If pricing was standard everywhere, then it would be a different ball game, but it isn't and we all know that. However most everything else is fair game.

The HOMEOWNERS that try to pass themselves off as contractors are a different story. They are aware that this is a site for contractors only and try to fly in under the radar all the time here. The mods and members are pretty good at catching them though since they almost always slip and say "my" by mistake. They also have a habit of picking "General" or "Painting" as their trade listed on their profile.

Report those suckers right away! We'll flush 'em if we agree.:thumbsup:

Another caveat that I think some posters here sometimes forget is that they have included their company names in their profiles or on signature lines. Be cautious about what you say because a google hungry, potential customer might see your comments.

If we all knew everything, and always agreed on everything, then this forum would be pretty dull.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

SC sawdaddy said:


> No deal. The lady here now gives me 3 squares and a little nook. :whistling


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> Can you honestly expect me to believe these 2 owners can talk numbers that mean something to each other?




Could they talk numbers that mean something ABSOLUTELY. because little guy would say I need to pull this to be able to meet that demand if I were ever to get there.. I've done it myself.. everytime I talk numbers or are able to gain a numbers perspective I improve my stance.. I've put in 2 "fake" bids one real bid *this year *to buy out some landscaping companies.. You would not believe the type of exposure I got to these businesses, the best not on the job work experience I've ever had and been doing it about a decade.. These companies were way out of my league..yet what I learned was insurmountable.. I highly suggest any of you/us little guys find a broker that deals with selling businesses in your field and make a play for it, just for the knowledge, you will see the numbers it will be amazing..


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

You are now talking apples and oranges.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Companies are like finger prints; no two are identical.

Numbers are important, very important. However, I don't know if we've even had a "how much" question when it comes to buying another company out. That's not the premise of the discussion. 

I have yet to see anyone post a realistic view on why the pricing structure on 1 company can help the pricing structure of another. Even if both companies are near identical, there are variables that can completely alter how each one sets a pricing matrix.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

I'll bite, Angus... 

Everyone says learn your numbers... Labor, materials, plus O&P... What if my local market wont bear what I want to make for the labor?

You in Chicago shouldnt be telling me what to charge for crown moulding installation on Long Island... I wouldnt mind hearing from SSC what the local accepted rate (ballpark) seems to be for, say, pre-primed 3 1/4" sprung crown. 



There is something of a going rate for everything (location specific, of course)... Using some common sense in the discussions would help it work. Some guys instead like to get Internet Tough and act like fools. 

I wouldnt talk tile prices with the Florida guys who can only seem to get $2-4/ft. I have to charge $6-8 for the same type of installation. 

Oh, SSC does talk pricing behind y'alls back.. I've recorded the phone calls for evidence to use during his BAN trial. :laughing:




> Even if both companies are near identical, there are variables that can completely alter how each one sets a pricing matrix.


And that's enough to forbid any discussion? Two companies near identical, but may have some variables? I personally dont believe so.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I have to make more $$ because I like the top shelf stuff.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

I have to make more money because MY WIFE likes the top shelf stuff...


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Splinter said:


> I have to make more money because MY WIFE likes the top shelf stuff...


You need to control her better. Just get advise from Leo next time.

All my extra money goes to diapers anyways.:laughing:


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Splinter said:


> And that's enough to forbid any discussion? Two companies near identical, but may have some variables? I personally dont believe so.


It's not really about "forbidding" anyone. It's the fact that discussing numbers doesn't do anyone any good. It doesn't contribute anything except a passing fancy of mindless banter. 

There is so much more advantage talking about HOW to get YOUR numbers. As you even say yourself, the numbers coming out of Florida don't do you any good. That is exactly the point.


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> Even if both companies are near identical, there are variables that can completely alter how each one sets a pricing matrix



.There are definitely similarities between businesses and there pricing structure...what about prices at stores? different stores, I'd say there's definitely similarities to product/price even throughout different chains and size stores. If there were huge gaps people would go out of business or you would see a dramatic shift in traffic....So you start to find a common area of operation for areas and even regions.. most companies quote in my area a minimum of 35$ per lawn, that exact number is not coincidental. I know why that number is what it is, that is extremely beneficial to me. extremely..



> I don't know if we've even had a "how much" question when it comes to buying another company out. That's not the premise of the discussion.


We haven't, but I got to see what they CHARGED through there contracts for everything. the company price and size was irrelevant..It's still all comparative. just seeing Labor cost, totals. it's like comparing a small house to a large house, you can find similarities, value, possibly areas of profit, or loss or exploitation.. If the cheapo, lowes or tons of installation company has sqft prices, linear ft prices.. we all got that..


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## Miss Brown (Mar 30, 2011)

My dad is a very talented builder...he builds houses from the ground up, too often by himself. He framed a roof a few weeks ago ALONE. I could kill him, if he doesn't kill himself first....anyway. He showed up here and asked a question relating to some kinda decking material he'd never used before...not wood. And he got so many penile answers, he wrote the whole site off as kids with too much time on their hands. Which is too bad, he's been at it for 40 years. Maybe when you join you should get a heads up about protocol, and perhaps encouraged to post job pics. 

Speaking of penile answers...I think I should go clear one of mine up...But really...sometimes GFGI...


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Splinter said:


> There is something of a going rate for everything (location specific, of course)... Using some common sense in the discussions would help it work. Some guys instead like to get Internet Tough and act like fools.


OK, now I'll shift to my own experience. 

I totally disagree with a going rate. I have no clue what other tile guys charge in this area. I don't care. I charge what I charge and it works or I go out of business. 

I did a small hall bath remodel last year that I charged about $9000. It was already demo'd when I walked, some of the materials were supplied and the customer had his own plumber. He also did all of the finish work (shower glass, towel bars, plumbing trim). Total sq feet of tile was 115. 

Does that price do anything for you? Acres? bbgcarpentry?

Does knowing that price help anyone figure a price per sq ft? Does that take ANY consideration of job site conditions? Fuel costs? Delays?

Now I can tell you everything I considered when coming up with a price. Do you think that would be beneficial to a new guy or a person looking to branch out into bathrooms? Would that help someone like TNT who is in my area and is my competition? 

Let's even use TNT as a comparison. What if he quoted the same bathroom and came up with a $6800 quote? Does that mean I'm too high and the market won't bare my price? I don't think so. 

I'm not trying to create an argument or come off as one of the internet tough guys you say lurk here. I'm simply saying as a teaching instrument (or advice), it's much more beneficial across the board to discuss how to price.

I have compared pricing at times. I talk to guys off line about what I do (with numbers included). I just don't feel that conversation does much good here.

Finally, as you say comparing my price to Florida wouldn't work. I agree However, I don't see it working with almost anyone, even locals as I don't price by sq ft. That's yet another reason why, especially with me, comparing pricing just won't work.

If anyone ever wants to compare a bathroom remodel, head to head, apples to apples, let me know and I'll be more than happy to discuss it offline.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

What is this "offline" you speak of Angus and where do I find it?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BamBamm5144 said:


> What is this "offline" you speak of Angus and where do I find it?


:laughing:


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

angus242 said:


> OK, now I'll shift to my own experience.
> 
> I totally disagree with a going rate. I have no clue what other tile guys charge in this area. I don't care. I charge what I charge and it works or I go out of business.
> 
> ...


Well said Angus. :thumbsup:


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

:surrender:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Just like the title of this thread...WTF?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> I have noticed several posts in the last week or so that bother me. They bother me because they involve a person new to CT being harrassed. It usually goes something like this..OP asks a pricing question or other seemingly HO type question. Then the fun starts. Next someone with over 1000 posts decides it must be a HO asking and starts in on them.It's natural to want to ask pricing questions if you are new to your business. The responses given to these type questions are mostly belittling and small minded comments. I mean c'mon guys if you don't have somethin nice to say shut up..at least stop acting so high and mighty.If you think the post is from a ho or its stupid then just don't answer. i


Read the pricing thread. Understand how pricing questions hurt more than they help, then stop hating on the people who know the answers. Not saying thats me, but geez, let it go. This place is for contractors not home owners, how else do you suggest to weed out the others?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

summithomeinc said:


> No I don't think I have. I will now. As a small project say a Bathroom floor customer buys materials.(that you approve as acceptable for that application) You have to remove/ reset toilet and add shoe/ quarter round and paint. 12x12 tile floor is 5'x8' I would like to hear your answer but so you know really I'm just playing devils advocate. the thread was originaly about attitude not prices.


PM sent :thumbup:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

angus242 said:


> PM sent :thumbup:


Haven't got it yet. :jester:


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

Wow, six whole pages of drama and the fires still burning hot! :clap::laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> I have noticed several posts in the last week or so that bother me. They bother me because they involve a person new to CT being harrassed. It usually goes something like this..OP asks a pricing question or other seemingly HO type question. Then the fun starts. Next someone with over 1000 posts decides it must be a HO asking and starts in on them.It's natural to want to ask pricing questions if you are new to your business. The responses given to these type questions are mostly belittling and small minded comments. I mean c'mon guys if you don't have somethin nice to say shut up..at least stop acting so high and mighty.If you think the post is from a ho or its stupid then just don't answer. i


Summit, putting in several thousand posts is a commitment. We have been through the ringer and come out on the other side. When someone comes on and doesn't even bother to make a proper introduction and just starts asking questions we all need to be on the watch and report anything that is suspect.

I wouldn't walk into someone's home with out shaking their hand and introducing myself and start asking personal questions. Pricing is personal. Like Angus and others have said, pricing isn't about comparatives, but about value and worth. I cannot help anyone determine their value or worth. (And I would undercut Angus by $2200 bucks any day! :laughing: )

As far as harassing, I think that's a bit over the top. It's not harassment, maybe inappropriate or out of line, but not harassment. I have been scolded in the past for making these comments on newbie threads. I have agreed to what the MODs have asked of me and will only report suspect threads and posts. Not because I think that it's wrong, but because I am making the MODs job that much harder, and that's the last thing I want to do.

With all that said, I will not stop vetting members and posts, especially if they want just answers and have no intentions of contributing much if anything to our humble little home.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

This is what I am currently working on. Two basement doors neither one closes. The jambes were set in concrete and rotted and are now pulling away and both hinge jambs are cupped. The door has been shaved repeatedly to temp fix. I assumed the mortar behind the jamb is decayed.

What is the fix? Shave them again? I recommended replacement. It is in a historical district and the old paint is lead.

How long will it take me to demo the old the jambs (per RRP), re-point the walls, build new jambs, resize the doors, hang em and paint the lot of it? I don't know. 

There goes one leg of the equation.

I always try and factor in a guess at how long I think someone proficient in doing what I am bidding on would take, both to be competitive and to be fair to the client as practising a new skill or figuring out a new solution should, I feel, be on me.

That is the part of the equation that keeps jamming me up most consistently. I try and make best guesses on time (labor) and they keep being off, pretty way off. And I am always wondering if I am just that bad at estimating how long a job should take or just that freakin' slow.

Honestly I have other questions about how to handle the costs and other parts of the formula as well.

Just sayin' I know no one here wants to or can give another a pricing fish, but there is not much help on fishin' either.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Read the pricing thread. Understand how pricing questions hurt more than they help, then stop hating on the people who know the answers. Not saying thats me, but geez, let it go. This place is for contractors not home owners, how else do you suggest to weed out the others?


This was never about pricing. It was about being civil and proffesional contractors acting like proffessionals...As far as pricing and giving advice to homeowners I agree.. read my replies earlier in this thread. As far as weeding out those who don't belong I suggest we do it with courtesy and integrity.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

moorewarner said:


> this is what i am currently working on. Two basement doors neither one closes. The jambes were set in concrete and rotted and are now pulling away and both hinge jambs are cupped. The door has been shaved repeatedly to temp fix. I assumed the mortar behind the jamb is decayed.
> 
> What is the fix? Shave them again? I recommended replacement. It is in a historical district and the old paint is lead.
> 
> ...


$3455.73


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Summit, putting in several thousand posts is a commitment. We have been through the ringer and come out on the other side. When someone comes on and doesn't even bother to make a proper introduction and just starts asking questions we all need to be on the watch and report anything that is suspect.
> 
> I wouldn't walk into someone's home with out shaking their hand and introducing myself and start asking personal questions. Pricing is personal. Like Angus and others have said, pricing isn't about comparatives, but about value and worth. I cannot help anyone determine their value or worth. (And I would undercut Angus by $2200 bucks any day! :laughing: )
> 
> ...


I agree with what you have said except that i still think that we can act more proffessional and weed out those who don't belong without being a**holes


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> $3455.73


That seems a little high to me. :whistling


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

moorewarner said:


> That seems a little high to me. :whistling


Yeah well get a few quotes and let me know...


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Haven't got it yet. :jester:


Keep waiting....


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Yeah well get a few quotes and let me know...


3355.73 thanks for the help


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> I agree with what you have said except that i still think that we can act more proffessional and weed out those who don't belong without being a**holes


You said you agree with what I have said "except"...I never said that we should act unprofessional weeding them out. I just said I would not stop vetting. We can vet without being @$$holes about it.

But I guess that's were everyone can define being unprofessional or being an A-hole differently. What you might think crossed the line a 100 others would think that I am in line. I also think that people need to stop getting their undies in a wad and just take some BS like a man (or woman).


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You said you agree with what I have said "except"...I never said that we should act unprofessional weeding them out. I just said I would not stop vetting. We can vet without being @$$holes about it.
> 
> But I guess that's were everyone can define being unprofessional or being an A-hole differently. What you might think crossed the line a 100 others would think that I am in line. I also think that people need to stop getting their undies in a wad and just take some BS like a man (or woman).


In that case I agree ..the except was to clarify not disagree


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> (And I would undercut Angus by $2200 bucks any day! :laughing: )


You know the was solely an example and in no way was I insinuating you would ever be cheaper than me


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

angus242 said:


> You know the was solely an example and in no way was I insinuating you would ever be cheaper than me


But you hit it dead on...you are good! I think it's because I use a HF tile saw, saved a lot of money. :laughing:

Thanks for using me as an good example this time and not a bad one. :thumbsup:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I forgot about the HF. I recant; you _should_ be cheaper than me :lol:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

summithomeinc said:


> IF it was in my service area 80.00 service charge. 40.00/hour plus materials. Help you any?





ohiohomedoctor said:


> Ha, you are charging way too much... Thanks for the help!





summithomeinc said:


> Except I get that much..so it must not be too much..You're welcome



You and I are in the same area, and I charge about double that. Does that mean I'm _too expensiv_e? 

Or is it, that you're not _charging enough_?

Answer: Neither

That's why others' pricing, even within the same area really doesn't matter much.



























Disclaimer: I'm not really posting what I charge...that's _my_ business. :laughing:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

J F said:


> You and I are in the same area, and I charge about double that. Does that mean I'm too expensive?
> 
> Or is it, that you're not charging enough?
> 
> ...


Yes, :laughing:


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## rosethornva (Aug 15, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> This was never about pricing. It was about being civil and professional contractors acting like professionals. As far as pricing and giving advice to homeowners I agree. Read my replies earlier in this thread. As far as weeding out those who don't belong I suggest we do it with courtesy and integrity.


Amen to that. Civility is a really, really good idea, even on the internet, and even if you're having a really crummy day.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

I don't think anyone disagrees with the need for civility, but as angus stated, it's pretty much impossible to police it _all_ with so many members.

And of course, everyone has a different line in the sand.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Here's one reason discussing pricing even in the same areas is nearly pointless.

I recently signed a contract with a lady who then showed me her other bids. One of them was the comparable materials of another brand. I know they even cost slightly more than the ones I offered.

This other gentleman has a showroom and all that jazz. I was still nearly $100 more but that was after a 10% discount for being a referral.

What good does comparing our prices do?

If you're really interested in your local prices, get an estimate or 10.


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

I think we passed th civility part of this thread a couple of pages back. And i think that most of us agreed that being more civil and alittle more polite would go along way for the forum and ourselves.

Now back to pricing .. .. .. ..

Some of the answers being said here are ridiculous and are childish and hold no real value to the conversation. Others on both sides have very good *but different* points.

If you are one who doesn't want to talk pricing because you feel that you are helping out your competition, and that you worked long and hard for those numbers and your not going to give them away at all then more power to you - i agree 100% with that but that is not what were "debating" here.

Where talking about wether or not knowing what others charge in your area for similar work is important or not. I can think of a thousand examples where businesses all over the world know exactly what their competition charges. from small businesses to billion dollar ones you have to be priced within the market for the value you provide. You cannot provide low-mid end work and get high end numbers and be in business for ever. Eventually it will catch up to you.

@ Angus- you repeatedly keep saying how some just will never get it. Maybe some on the other side are thinking the same exact thing. whos to say that either side is right. You say that it doesnt matter to you what the competition charges- i cant believe that. Maybe you have no competition (except TNT :laughing maybe your in a league of your own, if this works for you and it's obvious that it does then so be it but i'm starting to think that your different then the majority and thats why we'll never get it!

What if you could be making more? maybe your not charging what the market will bear? maybe your selling yourself short?


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Here's one reason discussing pricing even in the same areas is nearly pointless.
> 
> I recently signed a contract with a lady who then showed me her other bids. One of them was the comparable materials of another brand. I know they even cost slightly more than the ones I offered.
> 
> ...


That would be wasting time and money of other businesses. Calling for estimates just to better one's game with no actual intention of purchasing their service is F'd up

In the "Adjusting prices" thread were you not on the other side of the fence defending how it was important to know your competitions price?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

SSC said:


> Where talking about wether or not knowing what others charge in your area for similar work is important or not. I can think of a thousand examples where businesses all over the world know exactly what their competition charges. from small businesses to billion dollar ones you have to be priced within the market for the value you provide. You cannot provide low-mid end work and get high end numbers and be in business for ever. Eventually it will catch up to you.
> 
> What if you could be making more? maybe your not charging what the market will bear? maybe your selling yourself short?


Sounds like something I was just saying in another thread that I got bashed for!


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> If you're really interested in your local prices, get an estimate or 10.


Thats funny you mention that. Years ago when I first started and received my first basement finish call, I noticed that the potential customers basement was very similar to my mom's. I called some of the larger companies in the area and had them give her an estimate. Then I took the middle number and made it my bid. Looking back it was kind of pathetic, but it worked and I ended up making money on my first gig, which allowed me to do the second, and here we are.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

SSC said:


> That would be wasting time and money of other businesses. Calling for estimates just to better one's game with no actual intention of purchasing their service is F'd up
> 
> In the "Adjusting prices" thread were you not on the other side of the fence defending how it was important to know your competitions price?


You'll like what I just posted above then... :laughing:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

SSC said:


> That would be wasting time and money of other businesses. Calling for estimates just to better one's game with no actual intention of purchasing their service is F'd up
> 
> In the "Adjusting prices" thread were you not on the other side of the fence defending how it was important to know your competitions price?



Not if those businesses have a proper screening structure and/or charge for estimates. I am sure a lot of guys here have done it.:whistling

I think it is important to know competitors prices. We all know this by now. It lets you know where you stand. As you were saying, you have to find where you are for what you offer. I cannot be the highest priced guy selling bottom of the barrel materials. If you offer something more than every other guy, you can easily justify a higher price.

I can offer roof warranties that are backed by the manufacturer to the point where they even cover my companies workmanship errors for 25 years. Should my price be the same as the guy who just has a basic warranty? How would I know if I am not the same price if I don't get local pricing?

Their pricing has nothing to do with what I need to price at. There are some guys I just laugh at and I bet some guys laugh at me. Heck, my supplier even told me that one guy came in their bitching about my price on a job. I couldn't believe it, especially because my structure was the same on that job as it was on all of them and I made good money that day.

Here is a good basic motto for pricing. According to some books I have, this is the lowest you can sustain and be considered a "professional" business. 35% materials - 35% labor - 15% overhead - 15% profit. Price every job similar to that and always include the labor even if you are working on it. You take YOUR PAY for physically working on that job out of that labor price. When I rarely work physically, I pay myself $25 an hour, just like an employee and cut myself a check for those hours.

The whole pricing thing isn't as hard as some seem to try to make it. If you lost money after a job, raise your prices. If you can't land a job, your prices may be too high. Hopefully by the time you can figure it out, you wont be out of business.


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

I only got up to about half way through page 4...

Regarding pricing... something I thought of.

Ya don't see the coach of a football team handing his plays over to the rival teams coach.....


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Brutus said:


> I only got up to about half way through page 4...
> 
> Regarding pricing... something I thought of.
> 
> Ya don't see the coach of a football team handing his plays over to the rival teams coach.....


Ahh but you see the rival coach studying the opposing team for at least one week before they meet, learning all their plays by watching film and learning about them.

Analogy doesn't make much sense.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Ahh but you see the rival coach studying the opposing team for at least one week before they meet, learning all their plays by watching film and learning about them.
> 
> Analogy doesn't make much sense.


How about taping practices from the stands... :whistling:


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Ahh but you see the rival coach studying the opposing team for at least one week before they meet, learning all their plays by watching film and learning about them.
> 
> Analogy doesn't make much sense.



Yea... you're right. It was pretty bad.

But I know jack about football and contracting. I'll learn about one of the two from here....


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Read the pricing thread. Understand how pricing questions hurt more than they help, then stop hating on the people who know the answers. Not saying thats me, but geez, let it go. This place is for contractors not home owners, how else do you suggest to weed out the others?





summithomeinc said:


> This was never about pricing. It was about being civil and proffesional contractors acting like proffessionals...As far as pricing and giving advice to homeowners I agree.. read my replies earlier in this thread. As far as weeding out those who don't belong I suggest we do it with courtesy and integrity.





BamBamm5144 said:


> Ahh but you see the rival coach studying the opposing team for at least one week before they meet, learning all their plays by watching film and learning about them.
> 
> Analogy doesn't make much sense.


Isn't that the reason why there is 2 weeks between last playoff game and Superbowl so they can study and practice?


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

I was gone for a few hours and missed this


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

knucklehead said:


> I was gone for a few hours and missed this


I went to sleep we wera at page four- woke up at page 7.


I hate that! :laughing:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

SSC said:


> I went to sleep we wera at page four- woke up at page 7.
> 
> I hate that! :laughing:


Never ever, ever, ever, sleep. Never! :laughing:


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> Alex, I've seen plenty of your work and would be happy to someday compare notes on a job. *Of course, I wouldn't want to do that in public *but seeing how you go about pricing and keep cash in the business would be very interesting.





> Lets simplify this. Come up with your own prices! _*The last thing I need is my competition or potential clients reading how much a bunch of who cares charge for whatever*_.





> but there are some things people need to figure out for themselves _*if they are going to be in business, pricing is one of them*_.





> _*Ya don't see the coach of a football team handing his plays over to the rival teams coach..... *_





> Disclaimer: I'm not really posting what I charge...that's my business





> numbers would be so much more effective if it actually INCLUDED the numbers in the discussion


yep like I said there's no such thing as a meaningless number..Me thinks there's an underlying reason and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with numbers translating :whistling ...


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Let me throw a monkey wrench into the discussion.
If pricing were "set" based on geographic location then that would put an end to all the complaints on here about jobs lost to low balling hacks, newbies, fireman, etc. Price is the price.
Now you are forced to sell the job on skill. Price has been taken out of the picture because everybody charges the same so you better know what you are doing.

Look at retail, companies send employees into other stores to check out their prices. When I was installing for HD it was back when there were about 3 stores in the entire state of NJ. The regional guy who ran the installation division came right out and told us he called companies and had them give estimates for his house for different jobs and he based HD's pricing on that.

With all that said I personally don't believe in knowing everybody's price because I make what I want to make on a job or I don't do it.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Acres said:


> Me thinks there's an underlying reason and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with numbers translating :whistling ...


Yep, it's a conspiracy.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

SSC said:


> @ Angus- you repeatedly keep saying how some just will never get it. Maybe some on the other side are thinking the same exact thing. whos to say that either side is right. You say that it doesnt matter to you what the competition charges- i cant believe that. Maybe you have no competition (except TNT :laughing maybe your in a league of your own, if this works for you and it's obvious that it does then so be it but i'm starting to think that your different then the majority and thats why we'll never get it!
> 
> What if you could be making more? maybe your not charging what the market will bear? maybe your selling yourself short?


I was out bid last year on a large floor job $3500 to $12,000. I don't think I have a problem with what I'm charging :laughing:

Let's be honest, the folks that are asking about pricing are either 1) inexperienced or 2) curious. 

If you have no problems with pricing your services but are simply seeking an occasional number for comparison, why not PM someone local to you on here or ask to see other bids from your customers that have them?

If you are asking about pricing because you really have no idea how to price your services, seeing other peoples numbers are not what you need. It is _way_ more beneficial to teach them how to do it for themselves.

Look, I spent hours the other night PMing a youngster on here about pricing (yes, with numbers). I have talked pricing with various of the local guys around me (shame on you guys who didn't come to the Chicago meet up :laughing. I call other contracts and ask for pricing advice when I run into a new situation for myself. I've talked tile-specific pricing with guys from Vancouver to Pennsylvania to Florida. Price is _not_ a dirty word.

What, I believe, is the missing point is that most posts/threads about pricing are from folks who don't know what they're doing. Those threads would turn into nightmares time after time after time. So, do we allow only legit pricing questions? There's no logical way. Just like there are multiple "lines in the sand" there is no way to police these questions. Every just loves to have their opinion heard:laughing: :lol:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Acres said:


> yep like I said there's no such thing as a meaningless number..Me thinks there's an underlying reason and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with numbers translating :whistling ...


Read the above post.


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

angus242 said:


> I was out bid last year on a large floor job $3500 to $12,000. I don't think I have a problem with what I'm charging :laughing:
> 
> Let's be honest, the folks that are asking about pricing are either 1) inexperienced or 2) curious.
> 
> ...



I agree with that.:thumbsup:
And teaching someone how to price is "more" important


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

I think it is important to know what your direct competitors are charging. If I know what the other bids are, alot of times I don't even bother. I also think that just trying to go by square footage can get you in trouble. I guess that depends what you are doing. It irritates me when I get a call from potential clients for framing, and they ask "What do you charge per SF?" Every job is different.

I am getting a bid together now for framing a 9000 sf vet clinic. I have figured it up twice and I am still not comfortable with the number. I know if you break it down to square feet I am higher than the going rate is around here.But this is not just a simple , straight building. 

............. if I only knew what those other bids were.:whistling:whistling


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

knucklehead said:


> ............. if I only knew what those other bids were.


Why? Does that change what is costs you to do the same job? Is your profit not important? I never really understood this situation.

If my price on a job is $4500, that's my cost. If someone underbids me with $3800, the only way I can match that number is to pay myself less. Do you guys actually do stuff like that?


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

Cause I always want to get as much as possible :thumbsup:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

So your initial bids are always high and you have "room" in each one to go backwards if need be?


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## tileman2000 (Feb 14, 2011)

angus242 said:


> Why? Does that change what is costs you to do the same job? Is your profit not important? I never really understood this situation.
> 
> If my price on a job is $4500, that's my cost. If someone underbids me with $3800, the only way I can match that number is to pay myself less. Do you guys actually do stuff like that?


I never match bids if they're not in the same ballpark as mine. I'll offer to meet in the middle, but never short myself over $700 to try and land a job.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

angus242 said:


> So your initial bids are always high and you have "room" in each one to go backwards if need be?


Well, not necessarily high, That could go either way.Even if I don't get a job , I will alot of times call to find out where the bids came in.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

knucklehead said:


> I will alot of times call to find out where the bids came in.


That's a good idea!


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

Every once in a while I come up with something:whistling


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

everytime i ask i'm 4000 more then the next bid:blink:


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

angus242 said:


> If someone underbids me with $3800, the only way I can match that number is to pay myself less. Do you guys actually do stuff like that?



Really? You dont think that happens a zillion times a day around the country? If people want the work, yes, they'll often take less to do the job. Where do you get your labor price from in the first place? 

Did you just wake up one morning and say, "I want to net $300/day from now on, that'll cover my bills and leave me something to put in savings". Well, why not say you want $1K/day? $2K, $10K. Hell, Brad Pitt makes that much, and I bet I go home dirtier and more worn out than him... 

So you come up with a reasonable number that your market will bear.. A "going rate" if you will. No, not an exact number type of going rate, but something that will land you work, pay your bills, and give you extra for the savings.

It would be nice if someone else could steer you towards that labor number without having to do a lot of trial and error, losing bids for being way too high, or just working too cheap.

I know we wont agree on this, but I just wish you would understand that it's not all black and white... A lot of us would love to discuss numbers, and believe it could be done if some common sense is used.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

Splinter said:


> Really? You dont think that happens a zillion times a day around the country? If people want the work, yes, they'll often take less to do the job. Where do you get your labor price from in the first place?
> 
> Did you just wake up one morning and say, "I want to net $300/day from now on, that'll cover my bills and leave me something to put in savings". Well, why not say you want $1K/day? $2K, $10K. Hell, Brad Pitt makes that much, and I bet I go home dirtier and more worn out than him...
> 
> ...


I'm mobile so no thanks button but consider it thanked.

And my real point was that the ban seems to spill over into a lot of the things that make up the numbers.

Insurance costs, marketing costs, labor rate cost structures, baseline scenarios to accomplish general tasks. I could go on and on.

It's all tangentially related to pricing and so seems quasi out of bounds.

Maybe I missed a memo that it's ok to cover some of these issues without running afoul of the no pricing.

It just strikes me as ironic how many here complain of folks undercutting the trades and yet most of what could help address that seems off limits.

I am totally down with not telling new members your job should cost x. I'll stop beating the horse now.

Ohio I bet you're number was tounge in cheek but I also bet it was closer to what it should have been as well, so thanks to you too.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

moorewarner said:


> I'm mobile so no thanks button but consider it thanked.
> 
> And my real point was that the ban seems to spill over into a lot of the things that make up the numbers.
> 
> ...


From the brief info and pics you provided thats the number I came up with when entered into our equation.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> From the brief info and pics you provided thats the number I came up with when entered into our equation.


Well then I was wrong and just thanks.

But even without kwowing how you came up wth that number the mere fact that it is 70% higher tells me my focus should be on am I to low vs. to high.


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## actionman (Jan 5, 2012)

angus242 said:


> Let's be honest, the folks that are asking about pricing are either 1) inexperienced or 2) curious.
> 
> If you are asking about pricing because you really have no idea how to price your services, seeing other peoples numbers are not what you need. It is _way_ more beneficial to teach them how to do it for themselves.:


I'm just starting out and I would consider myself both inexperienced AND curious. That said, I wouldn't want anyone giving me numbers but help with HOW to get my own numbers would be helpful. They way I see it, this something I need to learn to do for myself.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Splinter said:


> Really? You dont think that happens a zillion times a day around the country? If people want the work, yes, they'll often take less to do the job. Where do you get your labor price from in the first place?


 So lowering your price is a common practice and ultimately making less just to work is acceptable? I agree it's most likely common but being acceptable isn't cool with me. 



Splinter said:


> Did you just wake up one morning and say, "I want to net $300/day from now on, that'll cover my bills and leave me something to put in savings". Well, why not say you want $1K/day? $2K, $10K. Hell, Brad Pitt makes that much, and I bet I go home dirtier and more worn out than him...


 Well now this is sounding hypocritical. On one side, it's acceptable to lower you wage to work but on the other you should be charging whatever you want? I don't advocate either method.



Splinter said:


> So you come up with a reasonable number that your market will bear.. A "going rate" if you will. No, not an exact number type of going rate, but something that will land you work, pay your bills, and give you extra for the savings.


 But who dictates this going rate? Because in the exact same neighborhood some people will only pay $450 for a backsplash installation and yet others...in the same area...will pay $1600. So who is driving this median number? 



Splinter said:


> It would be nice if someone else could steer you towards that labor number without having to do a lot of trial and error, losing bids for being way too high, or just working too cheap.


 It's called cost of living. I know roughly how many hours I work and I put a value on that number relative to what it costs to live in my society. If fuel wasn't $3.75/gal, I could charge less. If food wasn't $150/week, I could charge less. If a once per decade vacation didn't cost $3500, I could charge less, etc. I hope that is something we all can agree on.



Splinter said:


> I know we wont agree on this, but I just wish you would understand that it's not all black and white... A lot of us would love to discuss numbers, and believe it could be done if some common sense is used.


Well you definitely said the key words; common sense. 
I understand your views of this place and I find it hard to believe you would think we could have a realistic conversation about pricing that would be dominated by common sense. There is hardly a cordless tool thread that gets past 2 pages that has any semblance of common sense. Talking price would be so volatile, it would end up like many P&R threads.


Someone can discuss this and enlighten me to a better way, especially for those that are green, but if you base your work off hourly wages, you can't really lose. Why sq ft pricing comes into play is way beyond my comprehension. OK, noob wants to remodel a small powder room.

Demo hourly.
Prep floor hourly.
Install flooring hourly.
R&R vanity/toilet hourly.
Paint hourly.
Finishing hourly.
Add materials + mark up.
Add misc (tape, plastic, screws, caulk, etc).
Add profit.
Receive payment.
Pay yourself reasonable salary.

How hard is that concept?
A decent wage is common knowledge across all careers. Say $35/hour for demo. Maybe $55/hour for installation. Flat rate for R&R of toilet, vanity, towel holders, etc. Sub the paint for $300. Add 3% overall for profit. When payment is received, pay yourself $30/hour worked. And I'm talking _average_. Nothing over and beyond.

If you're actual working hours were 35 for the bath, you're walking away with over $1000 for less than 4 days work, your business is gaining capital and paying some bills. You can adjust accordingly for distance traveled, location, skill of project, etc.

I'm saying everyone should have some kind of idea how long something takes. Bill hourly and you shouldn't lose. If you have a problem, come here and ask for an average on how long something takes. "Doing a 40 sq ft floor. On average how long does it take you guys to lay 12x12 tiles?" Since a very general question but it's much easier to answer. Doesn't really matter if you're in Anchorage, New Orleans or Boston.

Alex, I feel like you have a problem with me because of my position on this (and maybe more :laughing and maybe others do too. The position I'm arguing for is that of a moderator of a forum. Pricing threads just won't work here. The position I take as a contractor is to help those that are having a hard time with pricing by teaching them what encompassing pricing so they are better able to do it for themselves. I personally believe the best defensive way to price your projects is hourly. Hourly, of course, doesn't work every situation for every trade.

I have read plenty of people discuss their views that pricing should be discussed. I read very little on how this can be accomplished and even less on how to properly structure a matrix in the first place. I still hold the open invitation for anyone to contact me about comparing pricing. I'm still waiting....


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

angus242 said:


> So lowering your price is a common practice and ultimately making less just to work is acceptable? I agree it's most likely common but being acceptable isn't cool with me.
> 
> Well now this is sounding hypocritical. On one side, it's acceptable to lower you wage to work but on the other you should be charging whatever you want? I don't advocate either method.
> 
> ...


Wow, you have been on fire as of late! Love reading your posts the past few days!


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i agree:thumbsup:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Wow, you have been on fire as of late! Love reading your posts the past few days!


I can see a sperm donor on fire, I think Angus just being bored with all the BS he been reading not to mention the BS he been responding too :laughing:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

There are plausible reasons for allowing pricing threads, and there are implausible ones as well. Same goes for not allowing them.

Bottom line, the site's owner, in conjunction with the moderators, has set the policy that we won't have them here. Since there are no indications that the site's popularity has taken a big hit, it probably wasn't a very disastrous decision.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

angus242 said:


> So lowering your price is a common practice and ultimately making less just to work is acceptable? I agree it's most likely common but being acceptable isn't cool with me.


Making less than what? Some number you picked out that you'd like to make for the day... There is no less, there is no more... It just is what it is. 

I know what you're thinking, and No, Im not drunk. :laughing: I'd spend more time trying to explain, but I think the discussion might be locked down soon anyway. 



> Well now this is sounding hypocritical. On one side, it's acceptable to lower you wage to work but on the other you should be charging whatever you want? I don't advocate either method.


I see it differently... Get what you can.. It might mean raising your prices for a profitable day, or lower you expectations so you're not home sitting on your ass. (It's not quite that simple, I would never suggest screwing Grandma's out of their social security so you could take the wife on a 'round the world vacation)





> Alex, I feel like you have a problem with me because of my position on this (and maybe more :laughing and maybe others do too. The position I'm arguing for is that of a moderator of a forum. Pricing threads just won't work here. The position I take as a contractor is to help those that are having a hard time with pricing by teaching them what encompassing pricing so they are better able to do it for themselves.


Actually, I have no problem with you at all... You're just the only one who will discuss the topic with me, without making single sentence useless posts. I appreciate it, thanks! And I do understand that it's not just the mod policy, but that of the forum owner as well... Since this is his baby, he can do what he wants. I was just giving a little push to get the rule changed.. No Go? No Problem-O... I didnt start the pricing discussion, just joined in.

I'll let it go..


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

I personally think Angus nailed it when he said to use an hourly/daily rate as a BASELINE for charging... Whether your a newb. or old school this is the go to default for figuring out if your the right person for the job and vise versa..., and its turning that hourly rate into a bid first and finally a contract that separates employees from contractors.

Let's face it... if your asking a "how much" question then it's a given that your particular expertise in this area is less than polished. This doesn't necessarily mean you're not qualified to do the job... but, do you really expect to pull in as much as the guy that does this particular aspect of construction day in day out year after year???

The bottom line is that the job in question has to make sense to YOU... and sense can come in different forms, here are some examples..

Financially i really need to WORK....
They're low ballin' but this is where i shine....
I'm not gonna make jack... but the connection is priceless...
Won't make much, but i've always wanted to learn this (paid)
I'm scheduled 3 mos. out... time to test the $$ waters...
If you absolutely have to have it today...$$
"no charge" I appreciate you business...
If he can do it for less... "i wish you well on you project and please
consider me for future projects" 
blah, blah, blah...

Learning to price is like learning to use any other tool at your disposal. You can approach every job thinking that someone else is gonna"cut all your studs for you"... or, you can wade out into uncharted waters and start swimming. pretty soon you won't need a pencil or a speed square and your studs ,along with your efficiency will get you the money YOU deserve on MOST jobs

hope this helps... it's Sunday I worked all day and had a few tasty beverages


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i say we have no more of these ''why can't i discuss pricing '' threads:no:


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

Ok I will spill the beans.
The secret to pricing is to charge by the centimeter. Most people in the US dont understand the metric system, which allows me to cleverly insert extra beer money into the final bill without them realizing it.
Now go out into the world with this super secret info that I have shared and prosper my friends.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Tom Struble said:


> i say we have no more of these ''why can't i discuss pricing '' threads:no:


New script in the works :laughing:


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

angus242 said:


> If you have a problem, come here and ask for an average on how long something takes. "Doing a 40 sq ft floor. On average how long does it take you guys to lay 12x12 tiles?" Since a very general question but it's much easier to answer.


Ding ding ding ding:thumbup:We have a winner:thumbup:
After nine pages this is the most sensible solution to job "pricing" questions.


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

9 pages? this has got to be the longest pricing thread ever.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

TimNJ said:


> Ding ding ding ding:thumbup:We have a winner:thumbup:
> After nine pages this is the most sensible solution to job "pricing" questions.


How long will/should it take is 90% of my trouble. All I am trying to do is get bids out that have a fair representation time wise of the work I am quoting, for both myself and the client (me mostly :laughing.

Thanks for giving us greenhorns a ray of sunshine Angus. :clap:


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

It looks like this thread is about to get closed so ill say this. . 

Its perfectly fine If the main man of CT says no pricing threads- its his call 

but to tell us it doesn't matter what others charge over and over and shutting down every thread that really gets into this topic is ridiculous 

get ready for the brainwashing

Majoriry of the people out their shop by price you have to be competitive with quality and with price. Business 101


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

KentWhitten said:


> New script in the works :laughing:


That sounds ominous... :blink:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

SSC said:


> but to tell us it doesn't matter what others charge over and over and shutting down every thread that really gets into this topic is ridiculous


Dammit, I wasn't going to get drawn into this discussion, but that's almost equally ridiculous. 

Of course it matters what other people charge, in the sense that you have to be in the same ball park to be competitive. But to be in the same ball park, you have to be offering equal quality of workmanship, speed, materials, warranty and so forth. Not to mention your personal grooming, lack of offensive BO and the presence of essential pheromones.

What matters is what YOU can charge, in YOUR market with YOUR typical clientele, and what works for me has little to do with that. Even if we're next door neighbors.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

cept the bo part,ya gotta be clean:tooth:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

So how bout instead of all the why can't I posts someone post how they come up with their numbers? That's what has been allowed all along...Why isn't there more posts on the how to price instead of what to price? For instance do you charge more per hour for some tasks than others? or one rate across the board? I charge one rate add overhead, labor and profit and materials. I think we all know our materials cost and labor cost and overhead cost (or we should) but how do we know our profit number is the right amount. So how do you come up with your number?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

you already made the goat swear:blink:,i'd stop pushing your luck:whistling


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> you already made the goat swear:blink:,i'd stop pushing your luck:whistling


Who me?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

no me...yea you:laughing:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Oconomowoc said:


> Not necessarily. As you pointed out earlier, what splinter charges is irrelevant and that's no different than your competition. You would need to assume the competition uses the exact same formula and is bidding on the exact same job. That's nearly impossible.
> 
> On potential. Your right, potential is the greet unknown in business and that's the fun part for me at least.
> 
> ...


Very True:thumbsup:


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

Oconomowoc said:


> *When looking at potential its even more important to remove yourself from the competition.* When raising the bar in business the competition becomes less important because in order to command higher prices your company needs to be on a different level. At $30 an hour does the competition really compete with you at say $80 an hour? Its a different customer all together once you hit a certain point.
> 
> Too many variables to consider. The key to wealth and enjoyment in business will always be sticking to a formula and beat your own drum. Forget everybody else.


Now there is a different twist on the subject and it make alot of sense. 


-Erik


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Good job adding to the post count newby. You're getting closer and closer to the magic number 1000. You're up to 236 with your last post, just a day or two you were below 200.
> 
> Who knows, maybe they'll jump you over all of us, and make you a Moderator.


So you want to be The Chosen One? The one foretold by prophecy, that everyone has been waiting for... Secret knowledge and power awaits you my friend! The CT will change, and it's all because of you!

But wait! The Chosen One does not have it easy, oh no my Friend. Far from it. There are rules to be followed and intense training to undergo, and danger lurks around every corner. The Big Bad "Hack" are out there, actively searching for you because you closed a Price Question Tread, they trying to hunt you down before you grow too powerful. In fact, you may have to leave CT forever behind and go on to fulfill your destiny elsewhere.

You must always remember that No Good Deed Goes Unpunished. A hero may find himself with a Wound That Will Not Heal, discover that your unique power has a terrible price, a Sadistic Choice presented by the "Hacker contractor", or you may even be called upon to make the ultimate sacrifice. Even if you survives, you may end up with serious mental issues relating to this work work. Simply put, it sucks to be the Chosen One and often presented as a deconstruction of the standard mentality a Chosen One tropes. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Good luck my Friend :thumbsup:


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

You are so banned when Summithomeinc becomes the Uberator. You'll probably get kicked over to DIYChatroom, to forever be forced to refer to Dangermouse" as "Mr Dangermouse, sir".


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Anti-wingnut said:


> You are so banned when Summithomeinc becomes the Uberator. You'll probably get kicked over to DIYChatroom, to forever be forced to refer to Dangermouse" as "Mr Dangermouse, sir".


:laughing:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Anti-wingnut said:


> You are so banned when Summithomeinc becomes the Uberator. You'll probably get kicked over to DIYChatroom, to forever be forced to refer to Dangermouse" as "Mr Dangermouse, sir".


:laughing: Since I never learned how to kiss A$$, lets hope he won't become one, and if he does. maybe, just maybe I have a little pull in here and someone will vouch for me :thumbsup: because DIY is the last place I wanna end up in :laughing:


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

greg24k said:


> :laughing: Since I never learned how to kiss A$$, lets hope he won't become one, and if he does. maybe, just maybe I have a little pull in here and someone will vouch for me :thumbsup: because DIY is the last place I wanna end up in :laughing:




Not to besmirch another forum, but: "Breaktime" and "This Old House".

Summit will be a fine Uberator


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

Do we need more .....oh nevermind


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## GPI (Jan 13, 2005)

SSC said:


> which is exactly my point~
> 
> what if contractor "b" doesn't know he should charge $200 a day. maybe he doesn't know he is twice as fast. All he knows is that his L + M + P + O= $100 A day. he's not losing money and he's making a profit but because he doesn't know what others charge or what the market will bear, he is selling himself short.


I charge what i charge because i dont need anymore practice..


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

GPI said:


> I charge what i charge because i dont need anymore practice..


Your post makes no sense and your alil late to the party :whistling

Did you actually read all the posts?

Stopped with these childish one line answers


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I'm not really sure how someone can sell themselves short with price. Time? Sure but not price. It's no secret on what wages are across all careers. So is $25/hour good? $35? $60?

Figure out how long it takes to do something, add a dollar amount to that time and make some money. Jesus, it's not hard.

And no, not everyone should be charging the same amount based off time. Yes, a seasoned pro can most likely perform a task quicker than an apprentice so the apprentice shouldn't be charging the same/hour because he takes 8 more hours to complete the same task. The faster you are, the more per hour you can charge. 

And I don't believe you should ever tell a customer what your hourly rate is. That just gives them one more number to haggle with.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

I don't know how many times I have been asked for an hourly rate and they say " oh shoot, I cant afford that. Just give me a bid for the total" and I end up making more money!


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

knucklehead said:


> I don't know how many times I have been asked for an hourly rate and they say " oh shoot, I cant afford that. Just give me a bid for the total" and I end up making more money!


That's very true. The moment you tell them what you charge per hour they immediately think of the wage they make per hour and seem to forget owning a business has a certain price to play poker.

Customers can digest a grand total much easier than they can an hourly rate.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

I know everyone gets asked by friends to do work, etc., etc. But often the work they want done is to actually hire you, but at a reduced rate because of your friendship/relationship.

My father was a contractor and I remember him telling me that he charges his friends what they make at their job, whether that be hourly, daily, etc. So, if he has a friend who makes $15.00 per hr. at his job,that's what my father would charge him to do work on his house. 

This relates to smaller jobs, not additions or kitchen remodels. More like doors, windows, trim, capping, stuff like that.

I was wondering your thoughts? I get asked routinely. 
_
For the record, my dad left when I was about 6 mnths old. I've seen him about 10 times my entire life. But, for some f'd-up reason I remember that a-hole telling me that tid-bit of info. _


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever but here's the thing. When working for friends let your heart guide your decision. 

The reason why it doesn't make sense is because what a person makes has nothing to do with assets or value. I know a man and husband who work together in a factory. They are in the mid 30's and both make about $16 an hour. They have a net worth more than most people who make $100,000 a year because they manage money well. What you make per hour is irrelevant.

I always thought that I charge my normal price and knock off a certain % for labor if your a CLOSE friend. No matter what happens at least a total stranger contractor will be much more expensive.

The key of course is not to do work for friends full time. That's a nightmare.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

It is common to charge hourly rate for service and thats what people expect. Handyman franchises they all charge hourly rate. Most plumbers who do service do the same. 
Doing home improvement and charging hourly rate you will lose your pants. There is many out of work carpenters who do that for HO during winter time. The HO provides all the material and they go to work for $25 cash in hour. Then they start milking the job, the HO runs out of money... the job never gets done, and every contractor in theirs book is a crook.

Also if you have a steady worker you send to the job and if he been with you for a while and on the payroll, you have to charge the right amount to send him to work, because if he got paid vacation, if he using company truck, if he gets workers comp n medical, and you pay him lets say $15 in hour, he is costing you 25 in hour for a 40hr week you paying out $400 to have him working for you. So when sending him to the job, and you don't charge $25 for him or more, you will lose a lot of money by the end of the year.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

How much do you charge per hour?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Wow this is still going on? It is not hard to price jobs. I will gladly tell anyone how easy it is and even give numbers if it helps. It won't. But I will do it.

I will tell you what I charge an hour. $70.00. I don't care if you know but it most likely won't help you at all.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Minimum $175 hr consultation. $250 hr service call after that 150hr+ material. Anything other then that I don't don't charge hourly rate.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

greg24k said:


> Minimum $175 hr consultation. $250 hr service call after that 150hr+ material. Anything other then that I don't don't charge hourly rate.


That makes me feel like a cheap whore


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

artiospainting said:


> If you charge buy the hour you are a employee masking as a contractor. temporarily unemployed between jobs.


Not entirely true. 

I hate the hourly thing. People DO start thinking they are my BOSS when I am working by the hour. Certain jobs require hourly for at least part of the job. Like rot repair. We can open things up on the hourly and repair them on a contract, but what if the owner doesn't like the contract price and they have a huge hole in the side of their house? So most rot jobs are just done on the hourly. There are other jobs that would fall into that as well.

For the most part though, I agree. Hourly is not the best way to do business.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

artiospainting said:


> If you have a hourly rate you will never make more. unless you increase your hours as you get older your skills my be honed but you slow down so you're making less money. With more skill. If you build hind site you can make a estimate in your head. on the value of the job. knowing from hind site the job is worth $$$ you can make more money.If it weren't for people with the hourly mentality contractors wouldn't make money. If you charge buy the hour you are a employee masking as a contractor. temporarily unemployed between jobs.



BS. 

I know lots of successful contractors who work T and M.


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

I liked what jaws said a few pages back, also adding extra for the scaffolding height(I think this is the type of stuff these guys need) a formula can only take you so far. It's obvious that it only takes you so far because there's so much failure with businesses, esp trades..

Anytime I'm unsure about a job, I'll give them an hourly. As angus noted it's tough to lose on an accepted hourly rate. we all know what our lowest hourly would be.. For me it would be bottomed out underbidding at 30$, when I'm mowing it needs to be 60$ hour minimum my underbid price.. I don't like going to either of them but sometimes it's neccessary, At least I know I come out ahead with those numbers.. I figure my hourly everyday, even if it's a bid job..I actually break many things down to the minute.. I highly suggest eveyone does that.. It becomes apparent very quickly where the money can be made and where you really have to work for it..It's a PITA at first writing how long every task takes, one hour I had 15things written, incl time to having to write those 15things... one of the biggest things I think in pricing is to know yourself..


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

jawtrs said:


> BS.
> 
> I know lots of successful contractors who work T and M.


As I have always said T&M is not for everybody....:thumbsup:

However, it can be *VERY* profitable...:thumbup:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Acres said:


> I liked what jaws said a few pages back, also adding extra for the scaffolding height(I think this is the type of stuff these guys need) a formula can only take you so far. It's obvious that it only takes you so far because there's so much failure with businesses, esp trades..
> 
> Anytime I'm unsure about a job, I'll give them an hourly. As angus noted it's tough to lose on an accepted hourly rate. we all know what our lowest hourly would be.. For me it would be bottomed out underbidding at 30$, when I'm mowing it needs to be 60$ hour minimum my underbid price.. I don't like going to either of them but sometimes it's neccessary, At least I know I come out ahead with those numbers.. I figure my hourly everyday, even if it's a bid job..I actually break many things down to the minute.. I highly suggest eveyone does that.. It becomes apparent very quickly where the money can be made and where you really have to work for it..It's a PITA at first writing how long every task takes, one hour I had 15things written, incl time to having to write those 15things... one of the biggest things I think in pricing is to know yourself..


No offense but writing things down by the minute is nuts. Ill leave that for the factory workers, sooner or later business needs to be fun. 1/4 hour or 1/2 hour increments is all this cowboy will do. I make plenty of money doing that. Plenty.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

I have guys doing service work every day and/or night in 1-8 different malls,all on T&M. If its under $7500,just do it. 2 men,4 men whatever it be,it works for them because they don't have to stop and look over proposals,and i make profit on the hour per man. 

However the biggest plus for me is that since were always there we are always in sight and in mind,so when something big comes up its "hey Matt we want to expand the sidewalk 4' out over 200',give me a price". Or "were about to ink a lease with a new client,here are the plans for the build,put something together". Sure depending on the size and capital investment of the project they get competing bids,but always being first in their mind and sight lands A LOT of jobs that if i wasn't there servicing their buildings at T&M they may have called my competition.

Also have a 15 year running service contract with UPS,and was the backbone of our business for many years. Up to 8 men in their buildings everyday, and we get x/hr whether were rewelding a side pan,changing a door knob,installing diamond plate on the loading dock or switching out light bulbs.

I still try to stay busy with retail and office TI's,but T&M work has been incredibly easy and profitable for my business.


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> No offense but writing things down by the minute is nuts. Ill leave that for the factory workers, sooner or later business needs to be fun. 1/4 hour or 1/2 hour increments is all this cowboy will do. I make plenty of money doing that. Plenty.


No you missed the point..It's like doing an expenditure tracking for personal finance/budgeting.. One of the first rules for budgeting is to track what you spend to the nearest 1.00$.. It's no different tracking your work to the nearest minute. It creates an extreme amount of awareness not just with dollars per hour but with efficiency per hour/day ect(time management). You stop whenever you think your maximized or have a good grasp on what/takes what, could be a day, week, some a month. Do you know how long your average bank visit will be? how long an average stop at supply store will be, how long it takes to fill up your truck? this shut adds up.. The first thing I stopped doing was going to as many of the stores that I could(internet). Another thing I noticed was I was losing tons of time not carrying everything I needed, those little truck visits are killers.Lunch?pffff on the fly.. It's like auditing your time management.. It's gotta be IMO one of the basics in business, how can you accurately charge your time if you don't know exactly what stuff takes. I've learned that I can drop prices on certain things and still make more by "bundling work/different job sites".. It changed how and what I do business wise..


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

I do hourly with a ''not to exceed'' number plus materials on larger jobs. Most people are good with that.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Acres said:


> No you missed the point..It's like doing an expenditure tracking for personal finance/budgeting.. One of the first rules for budgeting is to track what you spend to the nearest 1.00$.. It's no different tracking your work to the nearest minute. It creates an extreme amount of awareness not just with dollars per hour but with efficiency per hour/day ect(time management). You stop whenever you think your maximized or have a good grasp on what/takes what, could be a day, week, some a month. Do you know how long your average bank visit will be? how long an average stop at supply store will be, how long it takes to fill up your truck? this shut adds up.. The first thing I stopped doing was going to as many of the stores that I could(internet). Another thing I noticed was I was losing tons of time not carrying everything I needed, those little truck visits are killers.Lunch?pffff on the fly.. It's like auditing your time management.. It's gotta be IMO one of the basics in business, how can you accurately charge your time if you don't know exactly what stuff takes. I've learned that I can drop prices on certain things and still make more by "bundling work/different job sites".. It changed how and what I do business wise..


Well, I don't worry about the little things like running to the bank. But in jobs it breaks down **** this:

I have a pricing book which ultimately is my business model. My average toilet repair is maybe 10 minutes long on the job but sometimes 20. Too bad, with a service call you pay "x" amount + trip charge and that gets you 30 minutes. If it takes me 4 minutes you pay for 30.....period.

Water heaters. I did 7 last week. Minimum labor of $275 + parts + markup on material + charge for removal of old heater. 
Some take 45 minutes and some take 1-1/2. Doesn't matter because you will pay a minimum or we can't play in the sandbox together. 

What im saying is I charge enough where I don't have to worry about minutes. You mentioned loosing money by not tracking, but doing it by the minute is insanity. 

Do yourself a favor and charge in larger increments, exercise restraint in your habits, and enjoy your business by charging enough so you don't have to worry about it let alone track your life to the minute.

What kind of work do you do?


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

angus242 said:


> I don't charge by the hour. I build my proposal by using hourly figures. Not the same at all.


You 100% right, thats how you base your pricing for service jobs that last only a few hours. I showed someone my hourly price break down, but when you giving the price, you have to do it as one price for the whole job without cost breakdown, because if you go to a customer and you tell them $250 in hour, they will have a heart attack before you do any work.

Now the small example I showed, were the patch job came out to $600 and if the same HO calls the services of a national Handyman who charge $75-85 PHR that job will take a whole day and the cost will be the same if not more... People just don't realize that, because they have no concept of the costs to run a business today, the cost of fuel and the insurance fees we pay, not to mention the health plan if we carry our own, which I pay about 10k a year, this amount must be broken down and added to the Hourly rate, because if not, by the end of the day you're working for free.

Of course the pricing costs reflect on the area, like Knuckle said "he feels like a cheap Ho" you shouldn't feel that, because maybe the cost of living in that area is lower, the taxes are lower, the average salary is lower, therefor people cannot afford to pay this prices, maybe the average salary for that area is 40-50k a year, here the average salary is 125-150k a year, so for this area this is a reasonable cost for a service repair, if you go to NY which is 30 min away from me, and if I get 10-15k to replace a kitchen here, there you will pay 30-50k for the same kitchen which is a normal cost for that area.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Oconomowoc said:


> Well, I don't worry about the little things like running to the bank. But in jobs it breaks down **** this:
> 
> I have a pricing book which ultimately is my business model. My average toilet repair is maybe 10 minutes long on the job but sometimes 20. Too bad, with a service call you pay "x" amount + trip charge and that gets you 30 minutes. If it takes me 4 minutes you pay for 30.....period.
> 
> ...


To further expand on what Mike is saying, I too, have minimums even though my projects can be extremely different (I don't have service calls).

For example, on a remodel project (most likely a bathroom as that's my main service), in my pricing matrix I have a minimum of 1 day for demo. I know from experience that most projects that have demo will be a pain. Usually a master bath on a second story. That means I need to add flooring/carpet protection; possibly even wall protection. There will be quite a bit of time spent walking up and down those stairs. I probably can't stage materials or tools nearby. 

Basically, demo sucks and I make sure I'm charging enough to make money doing it. There are always exceptions but for a typical remodel, demo gets billed by the day, not hour.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

angus242 said:


> To further expand on what Mike is saying, I too, have minimums even though my projects can be extremely different (I don't have service calls).
> 
> For example, on a remodel project (most likely a bathroom as that's my main service), in my pricing matrix I have a minimum of 1 day for demo. I know from experience that most projects that have demo will be a pain. Usually a master bath on a second story. That means I need to add flooring/carpet protection; possibly even wall protection. There will be quite a bit of time spent walking up and down those stairs. I probably can't stage materials or tools nearby.
> 
> Basically, demo sucks and I make sure I'm charging enough to make money doing it. There are always exceptions but for a typical remodel, demo gets billed by the day, not hour.


I would like to copy this post to use as a company Logo... :laughing:


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## olligator (Nov 23, 2007)

Wow, I'm gone a couple of months and we've repeated the pricing threads ad-nauseum. Again. WTF is right!

I personally find the pricing threads great entertainment. When I have time to jump back on CT anymore, I actively seek out pricing threads just so I can get in before the lock. Just because. Ok and it's also because I have this crazy visual of someone sitting at a computer crying like a little b**tch because they read on the interwebs that they're mentally challenged 12 year-olds in rs's answer to "How do I wire [insert switch type here]" posts.

Un-f-ing-believable. The pussification of America has finally infiltrated one of the few remaining bastions of internet manliness. Here. Have some cheese with that whine people.

...








...



Damn I miss CT! :laughing:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

olligator said:


> Wow, I'm gone a couple of months and we've repeated the pricing threads ad-nauseum. Again. WTF is right!
> 
> I personally find the pricing threads great entertainment. When I have time to jump back on CT anymore, I actively seek out pricing threads just so I can get in before the lock. Just because. Ok and it's also because I have this crazy visual of someone sitting at a computer crying like a little b**tch because they read on the interwebs that they're mentally challenged 12 year-olds in rs's answer to "How do I wire [insert switch type here]" posts.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your whining


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## olligator (Nov 23, 2007)

Oconomowoc said:


> Sounds like your whining


 Ya got me there. 

Please mail me some of your great Wisconsin cheese to put on my Cuban sandwich to go with my whine. :thumbsup:

I don't think there's any comment on this particular thread that couldn't be considered whining if viewed in the right context. Still, I find it amusing anyone gets bent out of shape if they get curb-stomped on an internet forum. I feel like if a person can't take the heat then they should get out of the kitchen. Gotta have thick skin in our line of work.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

olligator said:


> Ya got me there.
> 
> Please mail me some of your great Wisconsin cheese to put on my Cuban sandwich to go with my whine. :thumbsup:
> 
> I don't think there's any comment on this particular thread that couldn't be considered whining if viewed in the right context. Still, I find it amusing anyone gets bent out of shape if they get curb-stomped on an internet forum. I feel like if a person can't take the heat then they should get out of the kitchen. Gotta have thick skin in our line of work.


:laughing:


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> Well, I don't worry about the little things like running to the bank. But in jobs it breaks down **** this:


Well what type of little things do you worry about? I would love for my own competition to start to lose sight of "the little things".. I have counted minutes "I don't so much anymore" because that's more minutes for me, it's probably come out to an extra 1.5 hours extra a day. To spend it how I want. Based off of a 24hour day 8 hour sleep I increased my days by 10%. Increasing a business by a guaranteed 10% in a year is a coup, it's no different with time..



> I have a pricing book which ultimately is my business model. My average toilet repair is maybe 10 minutes long on the job but sometimes 20. Too bad, with a service call you pay "x" amount + trip charge and that gets you 30 minutes. If it takes me 4 minutes you pay for 30.....period.


 your saying exactly what I'm saying!? 



> Do yourself a favor and charge in larger increments, exercise restraint in your habits, and enjoy your business by charging enough so you don't have to worry about it let alone track your life to the minute.


I charge by the bid, the only way I can charge by the bid is I know almost exactly how long things take, I know exactly how long things take because I've tracked it by the minute . Have you ever heard of a personal budgeting/expense plan? its the same darn thing lol..except your using time:sad:

I recommend everyone does this tracking for 2-3 days every year..Your bids will become more accurate, you'll become more efficient.. 



> What kind of work do you do?


Mainly prop maintenance, but I have my hands in a bunch of things.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Acres said:


> Well what type of little things do you worry about? I would love for my own competition to start to lose sight of "the little things".. I have counted minutes "I don't so much anymore" because that's more minutes for me, it's probably come out to an extra 1.5 hours extra a day. To spend it how I want. Based off of a 24hour day 8 hour sleep I increased my days by 10%. Increasing a business by a guaranteed 10% in a year is a coup, it's no different with time..
> 
> your saying exactly what I'm saying!?
> 
> ...


I can handle "X" quantity of calls per day. My truck is set up to maximize speed based on experience.

I have a tremendous amount of self discipline so the minutes in life are pretty small for me. Low stress and just have fun. I make sure I always make good money because I charge higher prices and I focus my efforts on finding customers who will pay it, a much easier task. If I lose some time once in a while that's ok, my prices make up for it.

As far as competition we are in a service based business. I've seen all of my competitors trucks and the shear lack of organization makes the difference between me and them look like the Grand Canyon. 

Of course, your talking to a guy who golfs in the middle of the week and goes flying as well. My latest project is a street rod and I do that during the day between calls so I guess minutes to me are not worth it. I'm too busy having fun.

I understand what you're saying however, I use to be exactly like you and monitor everything. Its just not worth it for me anymore. I can make up the loss with an investment.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Oconomowoc said:


> I can handle "X" quantity of calls per day. My truck is set up to maximize speed based on experience.
> 
> I have a tremendous amount of self discipline so the minutes in life are pretty small for me. Low stress and just have fun. I make sure I always make good money because I charge higher prices and I focus my efforts on finding customers who will pay it, a much easier task. If I lose some time once in a while that's ok, my prices make up for it.
> 
> ...


I'd like to see some pics of the inside of your truck to see how it's organized. I have to admit mine looks like a war zone half the time..


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

summithomeinc said:


> I have noticed several posts in the last week or so that bother me. They bother me because they involve a person new to CT being harrassed. It usually goes something like this..OP asks a pricing question or other seemingly HO type question. Then the fun starts. Next someone with over 1000 posts decides it must be a HO asking and starts in on them.It's natural to want to ask pricing questions if you are new to your business. The responses given to these type questions are mostly belittling and small minded comments. I mean c'mon guys if you don't have somethin nice to say shut up..at least stop acting so high and mighty.If you think the post is from a ho or its stupid then just don't answer. i


If they would read the rules before posting, they would realize why they are getting a little brother beat down. :jester:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

skyhook said:


> If they would read the rules before posting, they would realize why they are getting a little brother beat down. :jester:


So I've been told.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Pricing is the number one topic on contractors minds I would think so its no wonder its popular here.

I've always thought its really important to explain it to the new business owners because it obviously protects our own interests in the marketplace.

Some of us should write a great pricing thread that really knocks it out of the park for the new guys. I would be willing to contribute.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

skyhook said:


> If they would read the rules before posting, they would realize why they are getting a little brother beat down. :jester:


 I have 2 brothers. both in the same business as me, both great salesmen, both could sell water to a drowning man. The question is, Just because you can should you? I started my company with a few basic principles in mind. Honesty, integrity, compassion, and empathy are a few. Empathy is what comes to mind when I started this thread. No one here has given me "The little brother beat down." But I have empathy for those that did recieve that type of treatment for honest questions. I will not conduct my business or personal life in a way that doesn't take into account the effect on other people. Guess I got my own "Beatdown" coming...


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> I have 2 brothers. both in the same business as me, both great salesmen, both could sell water to a drowning man. The question is, Just because you can should you? I started my company with a few basic principles in mind. Honesty, integrity, compassion, and empathy are a few. Empathy is what comes to mind when I started this thread. No one here has given me "The little brother beat down." But I have empathy for those that did recieve that type of treatment for honest questions. I will not conduct my business or personal life in a way that doesn't take into account the effect on other people. Guess I got my own "Beatdown" coming...


Yuuuuup


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> Of course, your talking to a guy who golfs in the middle of the week and goes flying as well. My latest project is a street rod and I do that during the day between calls so I guess minutes to me are not worth it. I'm too busy having fun.
> 
> I understand what you're saying however, I use to be exactly like you and monitor everything. Its just not worth it for me anymore. I can make up the loss with an investment.


Of course your talking to a guy who will be completely out of the field very likely within the next two years. If all I have to do is monitor things Im completely fine with that ..The awnsers of my hotrod is bigger than your hotrod because I charge more is really funny..



> Some of us should write a great pricing thread that really knocks it out of the park for the new guys. I would be willing to contribute.


Hopefully you'll throw ur great wisdom of "hey charge more cause it makes up for stuff"...:laughing: probably right in line with this wtf thread.. the newbies will love it :clap:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Acres said:


> Of course your talking to a guy who will be completely out of the field very likely within the next two years. If all I have to do is monitor things Im completely fine with that ..The awnsers of my hotrod is bigger than your hotrod because I charge more is really funny..
> 
> Hopefully you'll throw ur great wisdom of "hey charge more cause it makes up for stuff"...:laughing: probably right in line with this wtf thread.. the newbies will love it :clap:


That's not a very nice thing to say just because I don't do what you do. I'm happy having fun not counting pennies. I guess a mans ego is a pretty powerful thing though so I understand why you would be upset. 

Not everybody needs to agree, its ok. Streetrods required time not money. I enjoy it, if you enjoy counting minutes that's great.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

Acres said:


> Of course your talking to a guy who will be completely out of the field very likely within the next two years. If all I have to do is monitor things Im completely fine with that ..The awnsers of my hotrod is bigger than your hotrod because I charge more is really funny..
> Hopefully you'll throw ur great wisdom of "hey charge more cause it makes up for stuff"...:laughing: probably right in line with this wtf thread.. the newbies will love it :clap:


If his location wasn't posted, I'd swear it was a guy I grew up with. :laughing:
Probably 99-9/10% BS anyway, like everything else on the wwtfw. :jester:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Why? Because I enjoy my free time over money? Because I'm not worried about making millions? Because to me I can be happy with less and actually enjoy my family? 

I like how some assume because I'm happy that I'm loaded to the gills and go play. I can live on $500 a week and be just fine. I enjoy my life, it has no stress and I can still invest for retirement. 

The time to play is now not when your 70.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

Oconomowoc said:


> Why? Because I enjoy my free time over money? Because I'm not worried about making millions? Because to me I can be happy with less and actually enjoy my family?
> 
> I like how some assume because I'm happy that I'm loaded to the gills and go play. I can live on $500 a week and be just fine. I enjoy my life, it has no stress and I can still invest for retirement.


We all do. We just don't brag about it in public. The ones that brag are usually the ones without.
Words bad. Pictures good.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm not bragging, I'm being honest. It was you who thought of bragging probably because of some insecurity you have. Maybe you view it as a threat, not sure. If a fellow man is living a good life I would want to give him a high five not demean the person. The only person "without" is you. If you had that you would be happy and could relate. This country is full of people like you, your a dime a dozen. You hate anybody who is happy and often time its derived from ownership of material items like a car.

Here is how wrong you are. On my street rod I've spent a great big total of about $1,600 so far. I.built the frame rails old school with flat steel and a hand tools. What were you imagining. You said bragging so I'm.guessing you thought it was a Boyd Cottington $200,000 car???

Flying. I bet that really pissed you off. My airplain is a 1946 Taylorcraft BC-12d. Even restored its worth only about $15,000. I don't have a dime in mine because I'm partners in it. The 73 year old partner made a deal with me where if I supplied the labor to restore it he would give me half the airplane in payment. What? Did you think i owned a 2,000,000 Leer Jet?

Amazing how the mind goes on automatic when its corrupted by imaginary thoughts. You must be very insecure to treat people like that.

I fly during the day because I value my time.

Bragging. Have you given any thought to what your brain was thinking when you decided that? If I posted that in a flying forum not a single person would think I was bragging. See the difference? The only difference is you. And I don't have time for you.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

yeah, yeah, you're officially on ignore.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

:laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

skyhook said:


> yeah, yeah, you're officially on ignore.


Why? Because you got called out? Not really the mature thing to do. Be a big boy and admit that you were wrong and move on.

I guess the next step is to close your eyes so he can't see you! :thumbsup:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Why? Because you got called out? Not really the mature thing to do. Be a big boy and admit that you were wrong and move on.
> 
> I guess the next step is to close your eyes so he can't see you! :thumbsup:


Thats works. :laughing:


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

Who cares?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

You guys, look, its ok. I can see where that post could be taken the wrong way. If any of you guys were in my garage you would be laughing. I'm a plumber after all not a doctor. I do enjoy my free time during the day and that means I don't make as much as I should by most standards but I'm pretty happy.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Why? Because you got called out? Not really the mature thing to do. Be a big boy and admit that you were wrong and move on.
> 
> I guess the next step is to close your eyes so he can't see you! :thumbsup:


_Admit nothing, deny everything, demand proof. 
If you think I was wrong, you should go back to the beginning of this thread and read it over.
Being called out to me is a group of Harley bikers, I used to call subs. 
The fine line between me and them was the semi auto sidearm under my jacket. 
Getting called out on the internet, :laughing: that's gonna happen.
I just got tired of the BS. Words bad, pictures good. 
1 picture is worth a thousand words, not the other way around.._​example: Here is my street rod.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

skyhook said:


> Admit nothing, deny everything, demand proof.
> If you think I was wrong, you should go back to the beginning of this thread and read it over.
> Being called out to me is a group of Harley bikers, I used to call subs.
> The fine line between me and them was the semi auto sidearm under my jacket.
> ...


I don't get it. You want pictures? And what for? What will that do for you. What you suffer from is way beyond insecurity. Stupidity.

Btw: I have put a few photos of my airplane project on here. If its burning at you so bad go find them. :laughing:

Wow, this is just childish garbage.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Just to be a good sport I will post some sweet photos of my baby during rebuilding. I have something like 3,000 photos because of Federal laws etc and they are all on SD cards.

Here is one with my pipe wrench at my old house. This is the new fabric covering job I did. The fabric back in 1946 was certified AAA cotton with buytle nitrate dope but the FAA allows these planes to be covered with synthetic fabric as long as it certified.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

Oconomowoc said:


> What you suffer from is way beyond insecurity. Stupidity.
> .


And you know this how? :jester:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

This is where the wing attaches to the fuselage. If you look close that's the fuel tank you see. The drips are actually in the inside of the wing because it bleeds through. I would have to look but just this wing half took about 230 hours of work....ballpark estimate.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

oops


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

People who have it, don't need to brag about it. :laughing:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Here is a different day. For fun I weld fuselages together for home built aircraft enthusiasts. I do it old school. Oxy!!!

This is a single seat fuselage 65 horse continental open cockpit job. A child could fly it and the blueprints are from the 1924. What your looking at is the the fuselage upside down in the cockpit area.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Ok.This of course is the cabin of the 46 Taylor and you can see the original cotton. This was in the hangar.

The wing in the first photos? You can see where they connect.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I could do this all night, it's like reliving memories. They are all the original files so I have to take each one and edit the, to be small and name them etc. 

I'd have to keep checking to find more. Waaay too much time.

Regardless, even though I think your a total prick for acting like that I do like your truck. Scouts are rare and they were always cool as hell.

Mike


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Me being stupid. The camera guy was way to close we shouldn't of done this. This is a private grass airstrip.


This was taken in my hay day before the recession and real estate crash.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Here is a homebuilt I don't own. A guy built it and died. This airplane was purchased by my friend for $3,000 in Milwaukee from the widow.

I was along because everybody always drags me to these things. The wings are on the dolly and the fuselage is obviously detached. I forgot all about this day. The guy that bought it never touched it. It's still sitting in his garage. Typical banker.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Maybe later I can keep digging. On Youtube I have one video a guy posted of the two of us flying to breakfast up north Wisconsin. He took the video and put it on youtube. I'll have to try and find it.

Regardless. I have to get to my kids now.

Mike


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

This has to be the craziest thread in a long time. 

Be nice to new members.

Pricing.

Mike's step by step plane build :laughing:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

angus242 said:


> This has to be the craziest thread in a long time.
> 
> Be nice to new members.
> 
> ...


Ya think? :laughing:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

angus242 said:


> This has to be the craziest thread in a long time.
> 
> Be nice to new members.
> 
> ...


And look what it has proved. It's a lost cause to say be nice to new guys. Guys been here for years can't be polite to each other. Pricing threads.. Same thing..a lost cause. 
So...the only thing left is the plane build..show us more pics Mike. It's pretty cool..


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> And look what it has proved. It's a lost cause to say be nice to new guys. Guys been here for years can't be polite to each other. Pricing threads.. Same thing..a lost cause.
> So...the only thing left is the plane build..show us more pics Mike. It's pretty cool..


Hogwash.... I was just very nice to a new guy.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Hogwash.... I was just very nice to a new guy.


No doubt about it I'm sure. But it is early yet...


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

As long as we are off topic wanna see pics of me when I worked in the carnival?


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Oconomowoc said:


> As long as we are off topic wanna see pics of me when I worked in the carnival?


Ummmm ....now that's a loaded question...


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

A buddy of mine rebuilds Piper Cubs and Cessna's.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

JustaFramer said:


> A buddy of mine rebuilds Piper Cubs and Cessna's.


Learned to fly in a1946 J3-Cub. One of the best airplanes invented but too rich for my blood. I like homebuilts. Build from scratch starting with blueprints, raw steel, and wood. About as much fun as you can have with your pants on.

Mention "Taylorcraft" to your buddy and he will know it inside and out. The designer of the Cub is the same designer of the Taylorcraft. Its always a big fight between airplane people. :laughing:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

summithomeinc said:


> Ummmm ....now that's a loaded question...


It was fun when your single. My buddy Greg and I did that. We co-owned it together. Carnivals work that way. You buy the machine and pay rent to the organizer. It was crazy.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

so let's see the pics...


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