# Backer board installation



## jhcontracting

Ok all you tile guys I need to settle an argument with another contractor. I have two questions to ask.
1. Why is it not ok to use drywall screws to hold backer board down? The fact that they will rust isn't enough of an answer for this guy. I need more detail. Or am I wrong.
2. Why shouldn't I use liquid nails under the backer board instead of thin set?
3. Why do I have to put mesh tape on the seams of my backer board?

Your answers will be a big help
JHC


----------



## angus242

Uh, this is a no-win argument. The answers (real answers) only matter if you believe in the TCNA handbook. 

You could argue that drywall screws won't react to the alkaline in thinset in any sort of time frame that matters. 

You could argue that Liquid Nails carries a proper ANSI rating for adhering tiles (or CBU).

The bottom line is if you realize the amount of time, effort and man hours the TCNA puts into their testing and recommendations, it only makes sense to follow them if you care about long-lasting installations.

Honestly, I think the majority of installers don't care. If a job lasts 5-7 years, that's acceptable to most folks. I've replaced floors and showers younger than 7 years old and the HO's were fine with the cost of replacement. 

Until the public demands 20 year old successful (or older) installations, there will always be hacks that use the wrong screws, adhesives and methods.


----------



## cleveman

1. It doesn't matter. Use galvanized nails. The thinset is going to hold it down, right?

2. More expensive. Stinky. Messy. More difficult to apply. Stupid.

3. Belt & suspenders. Probably not necessary, but won't hurt anything. Doesn't cost anything.


----------



## CrpntrFrk

Drywall screws have no shear power......need you say more?

Think about the weight that the backer board has to it. Then add thin set and tile! WOW!


----------



## PrecisionFloors

The Liquid Nail one is easy. The thinset is not there as an adhesive but as a void filler. Drywall screws to have the tensile strength or the alkalinity resistance.


----------



## world llc

i just tore out some hardi backer, about 6 or 7 years old... screws were rusted enough that i couldnt back em out with the gun, so i snaped them with the hammer. i'd say they were better than 20% smaller in girth, threads had fallen off mostly. only a matter of time before nothing left to hold the board to the stud.

his job also had mastic holding on the trav!


----------



## Floormasta78

thinset and hardy screws prior to tile installation.. thats how PROFESSIONALS DO IT... anything else is just WRONG..


----------



## cleveman

aren't we talking about a floor?

The mortar under the board would lead me to believe so.

Shear strenght of the screws on a floor?


----------



## angus242

cleveman said:


> aren't we talking about a floor?


We are talking about the delusional to the realistic. :jester:


----------



## CrpntrFrk

cleveman said:


> aren't we talking about a floor?
> 
> The mortar under the board would lead me to believe so.
> 
> Shear strenght of the screws on a floor?


You are right. The floor. If the house moves will the DW screws hold it in place. No they will snap. I am surprised they even got a DW screw to even go into backer board without snapping every other one.


----------



## jhcontracting

Thanks for all your answers. There are some very interesting thoughts. Especially the one about thinset being a void filler under backer board. That is what my argument to my friend was. With liquid nails you have voids in between the beads of liquid nails. That can't be good. 

the other interesting thought is about how long the floors last. My friend says he has been using liquid nails for 20- years and has never had a call back. My answer is you probably won't. there probably won't be a problem for several years. How many guys have gone back in to a job 3 years later to see how it looked. Not many. I know I have been in many homes with cracked grout on floors that have been down for 3-4 years. No one has any idea at that point why it cracked. They just pay some one to tear it up and retile or regrout


----------



## cleveman

The thinset is a void filler.

I have only experiences going back 15 years. I don't think there is a life to these installations as long as the building is maintained.


----------



## HS345

jhcontracting said:


> Ok all you tile guys I need to settle an argument with another contractor. I have two questions to ask.
> 1. Why is it not ok to use drywall screws to hold backer board down? The fact that they will rust isn't enough of an answer for this guy. I need more detail. Or am I wrong.
> 2. Why shouldn't I use liquid nails under the backer board instead of thin set?
> 3. Why do I have to put mesh tape on the seams of my backer board?
> 
> Your answers will be a big help
> JHC


How about the best one of all.....manufacturer's instructions. :whistling

1. Not corrosion resistant. The heads are too small, blow through the board.

2. You have already nailed (no pun intended) the reason for this.....voids. Both under the board, and the warranty. 

3. I'm sure many others here including myself, have seen Hardi installation failures in perfect 3x5 patterns. :whistling


----------



## GO Remodeling

It's very common to see drywall screws in showers done by the drywall contractor. Yeah they rust real good. Especially when you spot the tile and the water gets trapped behind the tile. It will even stain marble from BEHIND the marble. 

Perhaps your guy doesn't do tile repairs. That's when you learn a lot of what causes failures to happen.


----------



## JohnFRWhipple

You see drywall screws used in the field all the time. So many people do it. The fact that they are weaker is one of the issues. Just installing them they can snap or be stressed to near failure because a hardi board or cement board will not compress like drywall.

We talk a lot about waterproofing here and the sad fact is that with cement board or hardi board it is not even needed to pass code.

That said a drywall screw can be stressed during installation of the backer board and then moisture can rust it out quicker.

With a proper screw this will not happen. It will hold the board tighter to the wall and if it gets wet not rust out.

Now if your going to waterproof over this install you've taken the rusting portion out of the equation but not the strength of the screw.

It cost about $20.00 for the proper screws vs $2.00 - this is the main reason you see it done. Make sure your clients understand which screws you use when bidding a job.


----------



## Terrorron

JohnFRWhipple said:


> You see drywall screws used in the field all the time. So many people do it. The fact that they are weaker is one of the issues. Just installing them they can snap or be stressed to near failure because a hardi board or cement board will not compress like drywall.
> 
> We talk a lot about waterproofing here and the sad fact is that with cement board or hardi board it is not even needed to pass code.
> 
> That said a drywall screw can be stressed during installation of the backer board and then moisture can rust it out quicker.
> 
> With a proper screw this will not happen. It will hold the board tighter to the wall and if it gets wet not rust out.
> 
> *Now if your going to waterproof over this install you've taken the rusting portion out of the equation but not the strength of the screw.
> 
> It cost about $20.00 for the proper screws vs $2.00 - this is the main reason you see it done. Make sure your clients understand which screws you use when bidding a job*.


If you're going to waterproof over the installation...why not just use 1/2" standard drywall and _secure it with the approved fasteners (i.e. drywall screws)_...? :whistling
(I actually use the denser CD/SR 1/2"; or if reboarding the entire bathroom, 5/8 "Type X")

If your waterproofing install fails, then _you've failed_; the $20.00 worth of screws won't make one little bit of difference, _nor will the cement board_.:jester:

Just sayin'

Back before I started doing exclusively Kerdi installs (<2005), I always used 1/2" cbu in tub areas..._secured with galvanized ring nails _and mesh taped with highly modified mortar. 
To date, I haven't received any callbacks about those ones.:whistling

_I never did showers _prior to discovering the Kerdi system.

And none of this has _anything to do with the OP_...(which was adequately answered at the top of the thread.:whistling)

Bored, I guess...


----------



## angus242

Terrorron said:


> If you're going to waterproof over the installation...why not just use 1/2" standard drywall and _secure it with the approved fasteners (i.e. drywall screws)_...? :whistling:


One of the reasons would be if you're using a sheet membrane over the drywall. In that case, you are adhering the sheet with thinset over the drywall. The thinset _will_ come in contact with the drywall screws.


----------



## Terrorron

angus242 said:


> One of the reasons would be if you're using a sheet membrane over the drywall. In that case, you are adhering the sheet with thinset over the drywall. The thinset _will_ come in contact with the drywall screws.


Well...I guess I stand corrected. 

Perhaps I should sink some drywall screws into Kerabond for a few months, and report back weekly on the observed corrosion factor...:drink:

Is the phosphate coating (which resists the effects of the initial taping/finishing mud + the years of ongoing ambient (migratory) moisture) not considered adequate to withstand a one time assault by a curing cementious product? 

Not trying to be confrontational here Angus...

Opinions are all over the place on this one.

This is (after all) not a place that will _ever_ see any additional moisture, after the Kerabond hits cure...providing the waterproofing is sound.

Cheers, Ron


----------



## angus242

Terrorron said:


> Is the phosphate coating (which resists the effects of the initial taping/finishing mud + the years of ongoing ambient (migratory) moisture) not considered adequate to withstand a one time assault by a curing cementious product?


Probably, but why take the chance? If you're spending the $ on a waterproof membrane, why not the few extra cents for corrosion resistant screws?

Overall, my showers probably contain between $200-$400 more in materials than a "typical" one (water proofed). That is pennies in the big picture but so much more reliable in the long run.

When you're building a custom shower, ask yourself...would I warranty this installation for life?


----------



## astor

angus242 said:


> One of the reasons would be if you're using a sheet membrane over the drywall. In that case, you are adhering the sheet with thinset over the drywall. The thinset _will_ come in contact with the drywall screws.


Unless you are using Noble EXT or Dal Bond! Then it will be ok.
Still I have attached the Armor Shield with coated deck screws I have laying around.


----------



## Metro M & L

The proper tile screws are faster. They are cut to pre drill into the board, square drive to allow more torque to the fastener, and less likely to strip or break half way.

How long will it you to back out a broken screw or get a grinder, sawzall etc and cut it off. Doing it right in the first place is always faster. Faster = more $.


----------



## JohnFRWhipple

Terrorron said:


> ...Back before I started doing exclusively Kerdi installs (<2005), I always used 1/2" cbu in tub areas..._secured with galvanized ring nails _and mesh taped with highly modified mortar.
> To date, I haven't received any callbacks about those ones.:whistling
> 
> _I never did showers _prior to discovering the Kerdi system...


Just to clarify this you never built a shower until 2005. Before that you always used CBU in tub surrounds and floors I take it. Did you waterproof the CBU after it was taped? Did you use poly behind the CBU and over the tub flange?

Are your local inspectors OK with Kerdi over drywall? Here in North Vancouver this practice all be it approved by Schluter is not approved by the District's building inspector.

Lots of random facts pop up in multiple threads like this.

So in the past 6 years how many Kerdi Showers have you built this way? I've seen mastic shower go ten before flat out fall apart.

Just Saying. :whistling

Cement board, Hardi Board, Green EBoard, Magboard and Wonder Board are all way stronger. When wood studs fully dry often they check and twist. I would not want to be relying on drywall to help any.

Solid blocking and a dense backer board are the best way to start any tile project.


JW


----------



## We Fix Houses

While we're at it what method do you use to drive the screws ? I use the recommended Hardibacker screws with my 10.8 volt impact driver. Seems slow - maybe I need an 18 volt ?? What are you guys using to drive the screws ?

Here's a job I finished last week. It was a redo.


----------



## Bill_Vincent

man, some of the answers I'm seeing from the "pros" on this board are SCARY!!



> 1. Why is it not ok to use drywall screws to hold backer board down? The fact that they will rust isn't enough of an answer for this guy. I need more detail. Or am I wrong.


How about the fact that over time, they'll corrode? The thinset isn't there to bond the two layers together. In fact, if you're using a thinset that WILL bond the two layers together, you're defeating the whole purpose of double layering the floor, that being allowing for a slight amount of movement between the two layers to isolate the tile from the structural movement that all buildings experience as a result of changing seasons. If the floor is put together properly, and those screws corrode, that floor will come up..... on its own.




> 2. Why shouldn't I use liquid nails under the backer board instead of thin set?


One of the main reasons is as I just explained. You don't want to bond the two layers together. but there's another even more important reason. The thinset used between the layers isn't there to bond, as explained already. What it IS there for, is to BED the cement board, so as to remove the paper thin voids and resultant slight vibration that would occur between the two layers if the thinset ISN'T there. Now, if you use the PL, or Liquid Nailz, or any other construction adhesive, what you actually do, is CREATE voids, thereby not only defeating the purpose, but making it even worse, and pretty much guaranteeing the failure of the floor LONG before its life should be over.




> 3. Why do I have to put mesh tape on the seams of my backer board?


This is an easy one-- to provide continuity to the underlayment directly under the tile, which gets rid of the weak spots in the underlayment that would otherwise exist at the seams.


----------



## JohnFRWhipple

We Fix Houses said:


> While we're at it what method do you use to drive the screws ? I use the recommended Hardibacker screws with my 10.8 volt impact driver. Seems slow - maybe I need an 18 volt ?? What are you guys using to drive the screws ?
> 
> Here's a job I finished last week. It was a redo.


Nice showcase of Custom's Red Guard for waterproofing. Why not switch your backer board with your Red Guard installs to Wonder Board? If you look up their specs and use the right grouts and setting materials you can qualify for a 25 year warranty like Hydro Ban and Laticrete's.

Personally I don't like Wonder Board, Super Panel and regular cement backer boards as much as the Hardi or the Green EBoard backer boards. To much risk of cracking in the corners while cutting and transporting.


----------



## Bill_Vincent

Only difference is any time I've had a problem with Laticrete, they've stood behind their products. I'm still waiting for the same reaction from Custom.


----------



## JohnFRWhipple

Bill_Vincent said:


> Only difference is any time I've had a problem with Laticrete, they've stood behind their products. I'm still waiting for the same reaction from Custom.


Bill that is a common theme online and the main reason I switched out this method years back. I banged out a lot of showers that way and then started reading posts like yours. It is because of many online posters endorsement of laticrete that we tried it out.

Like David always says "When in doubt. Hydro Ban it". :laughing:

Many of my setters prefer Mapei here in Vancouver so we give them Aqua D. All that said I never have heard back from a Custom Project but like the warm fuzzy feeling I get from rolling Henry's product for my DIY clients...

JW


----------



## Bill_Vincent

The only times I had problems was with grout, and one time with thinset, and every time I had a rep come out, it was all installer error-- too much water or improper mixing.... even though Custom was the only brand I'd ever have a problem with. Also, in all the years I've been online giving advice, those are the same exact reasons I'd heard from every person who'd ever called Custom out to look at a failure or problem. it's like it's tattooed on their brain.

As for Laticrete, it's more than just Henry. His brother David is just as dedicated to making sure their products are top notch, and are more than willing to stand behind them. They both get it from their father-- the one who invented modified thinsets back in 1956. Additionally, Art Mintie-- the guy who runs their tech support is also dedicated to making sure that their customer service is best, bar none (got his start in the trade working for my family's company, as did Steve Rampino, in charge of their "Lataschool").


----------



## Terrorron

JohnFRWhipple said:


> Just to clarify this you never built a shower until 2005. Before that you always used CBU in tub surrounds and floors I take it. Did you waterproof the CBU after it was taped? Did you use poly behind the CBU and over the tub flange?


No...I went with a Keralastic scratch and set 12 x 12 porcelain on a 1/4 x 1/4 x 3/8 notch (Keralastic); after a minimum 48 hour cure, I grouted with Spectralock epoxy. I also used Laticrete's 4237/211 system on some of these. The tub joint was always done with "Butyl", elastomeric (exterior) caulking. And yes, _with_ the tub flooded to the overflow, just to save you asking . 


JohnFRWhipple said:


> Are your local inspectors OK with Kerdi over drywall? Here in North Vancouver this practice all be it approved by Schluter is not approved by the District's building inspector.


You're kidding, right?...inspections? (I know you're not but...) 

I live in the _real world _buddy...A _properly installed _Kerdi shower holds water,

Period.

And I _don't_ do new construction..._ever_. 

Why would you? Is it _that slow _out there in "Lotus Land"?



JohnFRWhipple said:


> So in the past 6 years how many Kerdi Showers have you built this way? I've seen mastic shower go ten before flat out fall apart.


About 65-70...

Mastic? Seriously? WTF are you talking about?




JohnFRWhipple said:


> Cement board, Hardi Board, Green EBoard, Magboard and Wonder Board are all way stronger. When wood studs fully dry often they check and twist. I would not want to be relying on drywall to help any.


I buy my 2x4 dimensional lumber by the lift (got a good friend with a pallet factory that buys it by the railcar load), and wharehouse it. The "Guy Lafleur" stuff gets cut up for...wait for it...the blocking, _which I always use_. If I'm working on a renovation, I'll guarantee you that _that _lumber has already "done what it's going to do" way before I rip the moldy cr*p off the wall.

I do more than showers BTW...just in case you're wondering how I managed to stay alive on ten showers a year.


JohnFRWhipple said:


> Solid blocking and a dense backer board are the best way to start any tile project.
> 
> 
> JW


Waste your client's money as you see fit to do...obviously you're dealing with the "idle rich".

Again, I live in the real world.

Most of my showers are on the order of replacing the enameled steel bathtub (in the 1970's ensuite), with a custom shower. These people don't have huge budgets (many are financing the job by means of equity loans, _etal_), and _I still need to make my living_. IMO, an extra 200-300 bucks for _substrate_ is _not a wise way to spend* their* borrowed money_...John. 

These are by and large, all referrals from prior clients and I spend their money on the _things that matter _(i.e. on the "wet side" of the envelope). Quality, through body porcelain tile, upgraded plumbing fixtures, and urethane grout (although I _always_ used Spectralock, before switching to QL2).

Take what you will from this...call me a "hack". 

Life goes on here... 

Whatever...

This is the _very first _Kerdi shower I ever did...16 x 16 slate. It's still holding water...BTW. :jester:


----------



## JohnFRWhipple

"You're kidding, right?...inspections? (I know you're not but...) 

I live in the real world buddy...A properly installed Kerdi shower holds water,

Period."

How many of the 65-70 showers did you self inspect? How many of those projects are still owned by the same client? 

How many would be passed if inspected. I live in the real world and work for all kinds of clients. Those interested in a nicer tap than building a proper shower will one day get what they pay for.

I bet you build beautiful showers but to say "Bah Humbug" over the inspection process and not following city codes is not the kind of advice that should be offered up online. My thoughts.

There is so much of that.

We do new construction and renovations. Most likely a 15 new to 85 reno split. All the reno work is inspected or self inspected. Like I preach on a regular basis this step does not cost much if anything. It can only save you and the client money. To skip it is silly and can only aid the builder in time line management - if it is the only room in the house and the client has no choice that is their call to make but for most it is a none issue.

The fact that we do flood test all our work keeps us busier than ever. Most people have been to the rodeo before and know what you get from most builders. Once burned on a project by a dodgy GC or someone flipping a project and cutting corners they want their next project built right and by the book - regardless of what the local inspector will look at or not.

At one point you must of flood tested your work. When did you stop?


JW


----------



## astor

What is the problem using fiberglass backed paperless drywall? Am I missing something here?


----------



## Terrorron

*Hey John...*

I'm going to pick a single line out of your reply to respond to:



> At one point you must _of_ (sic) flood tested your work. When did you stop?


After about 20 showers. Once I realized that the system (installed correctly) was 100% bulletproof, I came to the conclusion that _all I was doing was wasting a productive day_, waiting for it to fail...

...which it never did.

Sorry...too much of the "Orange kool-aid" I guess. :jester:

I am a "one man show" and _I do one job at a time_...taking a day off means that I sit around twiddling my thumbs; this because I _do not _run around town, doing a half a dozen projects...wincing every time the phone rings and it's "that" particular client (who's not feeling the "love").

Been there, done that.

Like I said before...I'm _meticulous to a fault _in my approach and I do _everything_ myself. 

I know full well the potential ramifications of things falling apart.

Case in point? 

I did a 60K reno (including a 60 32 Kerdi shower, major plumbing relocates/upgrades, custom made cabinetry, new railings, 800 ft of hardwood, staircase, blah blah, blah) for my _*next door neighbor *_last Spring...so, yeah, I'm pretty confident in my abilities.

I _do have to live next door to them _after all...:laughing:

Cheers, Ron


----------



## Terrorron

Bill_Vincent said:


> Only difference is any time I've had a problem with Laticrete, they've stood behind their products. I'm still waiting for the same reaction from Custom.


Keep waiting...

I got off "that boat" ages ago. Support from Mapei and Latecrete kick the snot out of CBP...

They've really got some work to do...at least up here in Canada.


----------



## Bill_Vincent

Ya think? I've had problems before with Mapei, too, although they're not nearly as bad as Custom. Absolutely NOTHING is their fault. Ever. Laticrete is the only one who has stood behind their product time after time. Even when it was a company I was working for, and my name was no where around it.


----------



## Floormasta78

CBP .. Sucks monkey butt


----------



## Terrorron

For that matter Bill..I'm firmly convinced that the only thing that keeps CBP solvent, is the supply contract they have with HD Canada. Nice how they don't bother to date stamp any of their material. I took a huge loss from outdated thinset (CBP Versabond) about 10 years ago. My best recourse was a credit for the product...

***** CBP...never again. Same floor set on 252, 253, Kerabond/Keralastic ...there would have been no issues. Hell, if the Versabond would have been fresh, I'd've been fine. But how was I to know? 

There were no date stamps...F*uckers cost me 5 days and 3K in mats.

Never, ever, again will I buy anything from CBP.:thumbdown

And though I love the Kera/Kera system...I'm now a 100% Laticrete salesman.

Just my 2c


----------



## Bill_Vincent

:thumbsup:


----------



## Floormasta78

Yea !..


----------



## JohnFRWhipple

I found some crews using a grinder to cut Green EBoard.

Here is how we do it in Vancouver.


----------



## ROVACON

This is how I do it. Set in Thinset, Hardi Screws and FIBARock tape.


----------



## TNTRenovate

KAP said:


> TNTSERVICES,
> *
> "I am not posting my warranty cuz it gives you something to talk about."*
> 
> Yeah, THAT's the reason...
> 
> *"I figured you would call me kid, son or junior soon."*
> 
> I actually don't know your age, and that doesn't really matter... There's a 22-year old kid on this forum, who has a nice trailer, equipment, truck, etc. all paid for cash... I was referring to the length of your business operation... "established in 2009"... I've forgotten more about code practices than you've probably even learned yet... Saying that not to "diss" you, but to give you perspective...
> 
> So your assumption is that I have only been doing this since 2009. Again, you lose. The current company I own has been around since 2009. I split from a partner in 2009 and started my own thing. So no, you haven't forgotten anything more than I will know. But thanks for showing your true colors!
> 
> *"And the real funny thing is I got you so riled that you are researching me... Guess what I still don't know a thing about you...oh that's right everything about you is anonymous."*
> 
> Researching you? Riled? LOL... you give yourself too much credit... I just clicked on your FB page to see if you had any tile pics to make it germane to the discussion... I am not asking you for anything about YOU, just your warranty... I already covered mine, but feel free to ask me anything about my business practices... PM me, no problem, I'm all open... personal info?... I know better... and I wouldn't expose my family to that again for the sake of gaining any type of favor from anyone... Those who have been in business for any length of time can already read what it coming with regards to your warranty and you avoiding posting it by finding any excuse you can... *you know it's game over at that point*, and that's the only reason... Because you KNOW that it's all words, and that's part a product of your lack of business experience... and as I said before, I would consider someone saying that they provide a definitive date (1-X years) warranty while talking out of the other side of their mouth about *"built to last a lifetime"* more the definition of a hack than the guy with screws... At least he is not "screwing" the customer by misleading them into thinking they have more of a warranty (implied) than they do...
> 
> Well, I have been a member for a few years and have a few thousand more posts than you. Those on here already know me and my work. They know that I stand behind it. I also know tha the only reason you want me to post it, is so that you can pick it apart. I just don't feel like giving you that satisfaction. I have nothing to hide. Just don't care to give out any more info to a guy that hides his identity and location. Not even his state.
> 
> *"As soon as you put up your location information and your company name we can talk. Until then, I have nothing to prove to you. It's all out there for everyone to see, unlike you hiding behind the excuse of ID theft."*
> 
> No actually, it's not out there... if it was, I wouldn't be asking for your warranty... we'd already know it... I knew you'd use the ID theft angle to avoid posting your warranty information... almost TOO predicable, not to mention pathetic reasoning...  :laughing:


You knew but didn't actually predict it. That's okay, again, you can call me all the names you want, but I could still care less.

Okay, let me see if you are really up for it. Even though this thread had nothing to do with warranties...

What would you say if I had a 1 year warranty on parts and labor?

What would you say if I had a 1 year warranty on parts and a 5 year on labor?

What would you say if I backed the manufacturers warranty on parts and gave a 5 year on labor?

What would you say if I gave a manufacturers warranty on parts and lifetime on labor?

I think that I covered all the bases. Have fun! I predict that you won't answer any of them with a serious answer. You will say something about me avoiding my warranty. But since one of these is my actual warranty you will have a chance to comment on it. Also, not knowing which one, will give you a more just review of my warranty. Are you game?:blink:

(Sorry had to delete some of your emoticons, with the ones I added, 1, there were too many.)


----------



## ohiohomedoctor

KAP said:


> ohiohomedoctor,
> 
> "I know dynamite gives you a chubby but let it go. Its becoming redundantly booooooring... "
> 
> :laughing:


Now we are getting some where. Nice graphics, and Im a CT addict. I learned today that its a disease and its not my fault, so whatever.. :laughing:


----------



## KAP

TNTSERVICES,

*"What would you say if I gave a manufacturers warranty on parts and lifetime on labor?"*

For your *"built to last a lifetime"* to mean anything, this would be the ONLY ONE that matters.... 

Now, of course, your out, is all the other manufacturers (but you can't use that - see below)... We don't hide behind the manufacturer as there IS NO MANUFACTURER WARRANTY as has already been discussed... our warranties are ALL on us IN WRITING... the one "option" you didn't list, and also the one that has any true accountability for the install...

In post #96, you said - *"If an installer has done everything right, how would it fail. I have never heard of a job failing done right."*

And if you *"build it to last a lifetime"*, then your warranty should BE for a lifetime, in WRITING or else it is just useless words... You can't have it both ways... and like I said, a hack is more defined by what you misrepresent to the client...

We don't give a date certain warranty along with a line of BS of *"built to last a lifetime"* but _*"I just can't back that up with a warranty that holds me accountable"*_... EVERYTHING degrades and has a shelf-life... You misleading your client does not change that in any way.... Lifetime either mean lifetime or it doesn't... otherwise you are misleading a customer into thinking that your warranty is something that is not... that is the very definition of a hack... it's what's in WRITING that counts... IOW, the tool by which your words are held accountable...

2009? Partner? You mean the one choking you in your avatar (now it makes sense... lol) OK, do you have at least a decade in business for yourself? 

The funny thing is you think posting in yet another theme or your non-answers actually have an effect on me in some juvenile way... :no::laughing::laughing::laughing:

It's just more non-answers and avoidance... is that what your customers will expect too?!...  :blink: :laughing:


----------



## mbobbish734

Here's my $.02, your warranty should be no more than half your businesses life to mean anything. If your giving lifetime warranties and you've been in business 3 yrs,that's just stupid. Rob if you are stating to your customers "its built to last a lifetime" then your warranty should state that in writing or its just smoke up my arse. Some people appreciate over building, others just want the water to stay in the shower and truly don't care by what means this happens. When your selling your company, a warranty matters(for the bigger stuff). I usually only give 18 months. Does that mean I don't think it will last longer? No. I will let the customer see the methods beforehand so they can make a determination. If you go thru all the reasons you use what you do and they don't go with you they will be asking why the guy they went with is so cheap. Educate your customers and they will make the right choice.


----------



## greg24k

This could be very therapeutic :laughing:


----------



## TNTRenovate

KAP said:


> TNTSERVICES,
> 
> *"What would you say if I gave a manufacturers warranty on parts and lifetime on labor?"*
> 
> For your *"built to last a lifetime"* to mean anything, this would be the ONLY ONE that matters....
> 
> Now, of course, your out, is all the other manufacturers (but you can't use that - see below)... We don't hide behind the manufacturer as there IS NO MANUFACTURER WARRANTY as has already been discussed... our warranties are ALL on us IN WRITING... the one "option" you didn't list, and also the one that has any true accountability for the install...
> 
> In post #96, you said - *"If an installer has done everything right, how would it fail. I have never heard of a job failing done right."*
> 
> And if you *"build it to last a lifetime"*, then your warranty should BE for a lifetime, in WRITING or else it is just useless words... You can't have it both ways... and like I said, a hack is more defined by what you misrepresent to the client...
> 
> We don't give a date certain warranty along with a line of BS of *"built to last a lifetime"* but _*"I just can't back that up with a warranty that holds me accountable"*_... EVERYTHING degrades and has a shelf-life... You misleading your client does not change that in any way.... Lifetime either mean lifetime or it doesn't... otherwise you are misleading a customer into thinking that your warranty is something that is not... that is the very definition of a hack... it's what's in WRITING that counts... IOW, the tool by which your words are held accountable...
> 
> 2009? Partner? You mean the one choking you in your avatar (now it makes sense... lol) OK, do you have at least a decade in business for yourself?
> 
> The funny thing is you think posting in yet another theme or your non-answers actually have an effect on me in some juvenile way... :no::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> It's just more non-answers and avoidance... is that what your customers will expect too?!...


Well, I didn't avoid any questions, and you did not answer back to all of the examples I gave. Who is the one avoiding?

I am not posting in any different theme to effect you in any way, but the fact that you continue to bring it up...says everything. I just go with the flow man.

If I said I had at least 10 years in contracting, would that really have any baring on how you felt about me and my opinion? No, so it doesn't matter how I answer.

See you miss why I don't feel the need to answer some of your questions. I have met many men like you and it's all about how much you know and how much you need to prove it. Why call me juvenile or junior? It's a way to try and establish dominance, but again you are some anonymous "contractor" on the internet who loves to point out someone "avoiding questions", when you won't even give what state you are from, nor a company name. Neither of which would increase your risk on the net. 

And if that's your issue, get Lifelock, it really works! :thumbsup:

The fact is I stand behind my work. I give them a lifetime warranty on labor and workmanship. I also guarantee my materials against any defect as it is my responsibility to ensure all of the materials I provide are top notch. If a customer provides anything I do not warranty it but will warranty the installation. So does that make you happy? Does that answer your question? Probably not. I am sure that you will have no kind words or anything positive to say. That is my prediction. (And the last pretty much came true.) :thumbsup:


----------



## JohnFRWhipple

http://www.flextile.net/t-ttmac.html

I found a ton of links to the TTMAC specification guide on Flex Tiles web site. For those of you not members of the TTMAC it's a good source of line drawings and wall and floor details.

JW


----------



## KAP

TNTSERVICES,

*"Well, I didn't avoid any questions, and you did not answer back to all of the examples I gave. Who is the one avoiding?"*

I answered the one that was relevant to your both your claims of *"built to last a lifetime"* and *"I stand by my work"*... I thought that was fairly obvious... The other date certain warranty examples you gave do not even matter as it relates to your "built to last a lifetime" mantra, but any date certain warranty was already addressed with it giving you an "out". That already was the answer to those... As it relates to construction, there is no said product that will last a lifetime. It *ALL *degrades over time... the grout and house movement ALONE will cause issues down the line... and this is where your years of business come into play...



*"The fact is I stand behind my work. I give them a lifetime warranty on labor and workmanship. I also guarantee my materials against any defect as it is my responsibility to ensure all of the materials I provide are top notch. "*

You see, your own words trap you... Do all your customers know that when their job fails (as ALL materials degrades over time - the more time that goes by, the higher the failure rate), you will repair/replace it for free? Because no matter how good you think you are, and I have no reason to believe you are not, ALL material degrades. Not to mention the surrounding structures... a certain percentage will always end up failing. Anyone with at least 5 years in construction KNOWS this... They've already grown past the "I want to be everything to everyone, and offer the best and I offer the highest quality install" phase... and their warranties usually reflect that reality... To give you perspective, a brand new home, that is built to existing code, inspections and all, WILL fail down the line, and it won't take a lifetime. Except apparently anything you install that may be in that home... really?...  :no:

BTW, it WOULD have mattered if you had told me you had 10 years of experience, because I would have said to you, how can you NOT know that a "lifetime" warranty on labor and materials (which you back up, using top notch materials) is COMPLETELY unrealistic and foolish to begin with, not to mention misleading to the customer. It's not like you can even drop down a percentage each year for depreciation, like manufacturers do, BECAUSE everyone's lifetime is different, and you are providing a lifetime warranty. For those manufacturers who offer a bogus "lifetime" warranty, you have to PROVE that it was their product's fault for the failure. And even IF that were possible, they only replace the actual materials that failed, not the whole job... problem is, it is usually too late by that time, as it is in the damaged phase already when it is noticed...

Your "lifetime" warranty is what the consumer advocates refer to as "too good to be true"... If it sounds to good to be true... it usually is... don't think the customers you are feeding this line to don't see it... Alot of them are probably older than you also, and if they don't KNOW this instinctively, they know it through experience... Again, the gout ALONE will cause you issues down the line (before any screw would, no matter the type, BTW)... All it takes is a shift in the wall, and a tiny crack and you have your start point and the wicking has begun... who's fault is that? Yeah, good luck proving it... :no:

You see, you may think I am picking on you, and on some things, in all fairness I guess I am giving a little back... , but this is bigger than that. What you don't realize is that even if you are THE BEST at what you do, materials degrade over time. If you guarantee your materials, there is only two ways you can do that...

1. You provide the customer with a manufacturer warranty.

2. You provide the warranty backing up the manufacturer, and since their warranty is usually 1-3 years anyway, anything beyond that would be on you.

Now, in either case, the materials have either a date certain warranty or you are providing an extended lifetime warranty. If you are guaranteeing the materials with a date certain warranty, it gives you an out to hide behind the materials, because there are MULTIPLE different manufacturers as it relates to tiling... IOW, the "built to last a lifetme" goes out the door as nothing more than a misleading gimmick...


*"And if that's your issue, get Lifelock, it really works!"*

Uh, no it doesn't... :no:... and similar to your "lifetime" warranty, they were SUED by 35 states and lost because of misleading claims... 

http://money.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978093165

BTW, you can go onto the credit reporting agencies and place a FREE fraud alert on your credit report credit reporting companies. Experian , TransUnion, and Equifax... and it doesn't have to cost you A DIME... 


So you can either put your arrogance and ego aside and LEARN from all this, and how it relates to your business and business practices or you can just keep posting things that have NOTHING to do with the substance of the discussion. I've seen companies go out of business and families wrecked because of silliness like this... and whether you believe it or not, I TRUELY do not want that for you or anyone else...



Keep in mind that all that you wrote regarding this issue is now stamped on the internet for some lawyer to use against you. You see, you said *"I stand behind my work"*, not your company, but even if you didn't, if you are a sole-proprietor or LLC, you have exposure. And if you have assets in your name, you are not judgement-proof.

If you have to, pretend it's not me giving you this info, and LEARN from this... otherwise, I PROMISE you, this will bite you in the a** down the line because you didn't... the other pro's on this board KNOW this, which is why noone has come forward to say they would provide a lifetime warranty on materials and labor...

You serve you, your family and your customers better by providing a date certain warranty that covers it all instead of a warranty with ambiguity or unrealistic expectations... Realistic expectations are set up-front and are transparent and in writing... THAT is a quality warranty product. 

Be wise enough to take the advice of those who have come before you, as one day you may be able to do the same for someone in your phase of life and continue the circle... :thumbsup:

Best of luck... 8^)


----------



## GO Remodeling

Thanks John. You'd make a great newspaper reporter. Always doing the research.:clap:


----------



## GO Remodeling

Thanks, Greg. I feel much better now. I wish it were Spring so I could go outside and smell the flowers.


----------



## TNTRenovate

KAP said:


> TNTSERVICES,
> 
> *"Well, I didn't avoid any questions, and you did not answer back to all of the examples I gave. Who is the one avoiding?"*
> 
> I answered the one that was relevant to your both your claims of *"built to last a lifetime"* and *"I stand by my work"*... I thought that was fairly obvious... The other date certain warranty examples you gave do not even matter as it relates to your "built to last a lifetime" mantra, but any date certain warranty was already addressed with it giving you an "out". That already was the answer to those... As it relates to construction, there is no said product that will last a lifetime. It *ALL *degrades over time... the grout and house movement ALONE will cause issues down the line... and this is where your years of business come into play...
> 
> 
> 
> *"The fact is I stand behind my work. I give them a lifetime warranty on labor and workmanship. I also guarantee my materials against any defect as it is my responsibility to ensure all of the materials I provide are top notch. "*
> 
> You see, your own words trap you... Do all your customers know that when their job fails (as ALL materials degrades over time - the more time that goes by, the higher the failure rate), you will repair/replace it for free? Because no matter how good you think you are, and I have no reason to believe you are not, ALL material degrades. Not to mention the surrounding structures... a certain percentage will always end up failing. Anyone with at least 5 years in construction KNOWS this... They've already grown past the "I want to be everything to everyone, and offer the best and I offer the highest quality install" phase... and their warranties usually reflect that reality... To give you perspective, a brand new home, that is built to existing code, inspections and all, WILL fail down the line, and it won't take a lifetime. Except apparently anything you install that may be in that home... really?... :no:
> 
> BTW, it WOULD have mattered if you had told me you had 10 years of experience, because I would have said to you, how can you NOT know that a "lifetime" warranty on labor and materials (which you back up, using top notch materials) is COMPLETELY unrealistic and foolish to begin with, not to mention misleading to the customer. It's not like you can even drop down a percentage each year for depreciation, like manufacturers do, BECAUSE everyone's lifetime is different, and you are providing a lifetime warranty. For those manufacturers who offer a bogus "lifetime" warranty, you have to PROVE that it was their product's fault for the failure. And even IF that were possible, they only replace the actual materials that failed, not the whole job... problem is, it is usually too late by that time, as it is in the damaged phase already when it is noticed...
> 
> Your "lifetime" warranty is what the consumer advocates refer to as "too good to be true"... If it sounds to good to be true... it usually is... don't think the customers you are feeding this line to don't see it... Alot of them are probably older than you also, and if they don't KNOW this instinctively, they know it through experience... Again, the gout ALONE will cause you issues down the line (before any screw would, no matter the type, BTW)... All it takes is a shift in the wall, and a tiny crack and you have your start point and the wicking has begun... who's fault is that? Yeah, good luck proving it... :no:
> 
> You see, you may think I am picking on you, and on some things, in all fairness I guess I am giving a little back... , but this is bigger than that. What you don't realize is that even if you are THE BEST at what you do, materials degrade over time. If you guarantee your materials, there is only two ways you can do that...
> 
> 1. You provide the customer with a manufacturer warranty.
> 
> 2. You provide the warranty backing up the manufacturer, and since their warranty is usually 1-3 years anyway, anything beyond that would be on you.
> 
> Now, in either case, the materials have either a date certain warranty or you are providing an extended lifetime warranty. If you are guaranteeing the materials with a date certain warranty, it gives you an out to hide behind the materials, because there are MULTIPLE different manufacturers as it relates to tiling... IOW, the "built to last a lifetme" goes out the door as nothing more than a misleading gimmick...
> 
> 
> *"And if that's your issue, get Lifelock, it really works!"*
> 
> Uh, no it doesn't... :no:... and similar to your "lifetime" warranty, they were SUED by 35 states and lost because of misleading claims...
> 
> http://money.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978093165
> 
> BTW, you can go onto the credit reporting agencies and place a FREE fraud alert on your credit report credit reporting companies. Experian , TransUnion, and Equifax... and it doesn't have to cost you A DIME...
> 
> Yes I know, it was a joke. Again, you need to lighten up a bit and not take things so seriously.
> 
> So you can either put your arrogance and ego aside and LEARN from all this, and how it relates to your business and business practices or you can just keep posting things that have NOTHING to do with the substance of the discussion. I've seen companies go out of business and families wrecked because of silliness like this... and whether you believe it or not, I TRUELY do not want that for you or anyone else...
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that all that you wrote regarding this issue is now stamped on the internet for some lawyer to use against you. You see, you said *"I stand behind my work"*, not your company, but even if you didn't, if you are a sole-proprietor or LLC, you have exposure. And if you have assets in your name, you are not judgement-proof.
> 
> That is funny. I don't know of any lawyer who would hold me to that. You are too funny! I don't know of any precedent that has been set. Maybe you could enlighten me on cases of this nature. The fact is I have a binding contract. That contract could not and would not be trumped by anything I said on this forum. But just in case: All warranties stated on ContractorTalk.com by TNTSERVICES, are subject to change without notice. :laughing:
> 
> If you have to, pretend it's not me giving you this info, and LEARN from this... otherwise, I PROMISE you, this will bite you in the a** down the line because you didn't... the other pro's on this board KNOW this, which is why noone has come forward to say they would provide a lifetime warranty on materials and labor...
> 
> You serve you, your family and your customers better by providing a date certain warranty that covers it all instead of a warranty with ambiguity or unrealistic expectations... Realistic expectations are set up-front and are transparent and in writing... THAT is a quality warranty product.
> 
> Be wise enough to take the advice of those who have come before you, as one day you may be able to do the same for someone in your phase of life and continue the circle... :thumbsup: The circle of bad logic. The circle that tells people it's okay to use the wrong screws all things being equal. No thanks! I'll tell them they are a hack until the use the right screws. Do it right! - Mike Holmes :laughing:
> 
> Best of luck... 8^)


Okay, I got bored half way through, but pushed forward. Thanks for allowing my prediction to come though. Like I said, no matter what I answered you were ready to shoot it down. That was the reason I didn't post it, not because I was side stepping any question. I knew that no matter what I said you would shoot it down. BTW that's not my actual written warranty...:laughing:

If I had told you that I have a 10 year warranty on labor and workmanship then you have said I was misleading. If I answered lifetime you would, well you actually just said it. If I said I had a 5 year warranty then you would have shot it down. I don't feel like you are picking on me as much as you want to impress others on the forum.

If it makes your point, you will pull things I have said out of context. Maybe that's why your bolding certain things annoys me. 

The fact is I have a wife and three beautiful daughters. I have a very successful business that is growing everyday. I don't need to "learn" anything from you. And the fact that you said several times that I need to listen to your advice, called me junior and pretty much tried to push anything I said down, tells me all that I need to know about you.

You feel superior to me. The fact is Angus said he builds his to last a lifetime. He also said that he backs up his work. He also said that you are a hack if you use drywall screws on backboard. Why not go after him? You call him a pro and me junior. See the theme. It has nothing to do with my position, but either who I am, that Angus is a MOD, or that I don't give a crap and keep coming back at ya?

The sad thing is you might actually learn something if you didn't feel like I needed to listen to you. I know you will say that you are open minded, but you are not. I am younger, disagree with you and therefore am wrong. That is why it was more fun to skirt the issue and find out what your agenda was.

To be honest my actual warranty varies by the specific job. But I tell people I stand behind my work. It is not an empty statement. It's not misleading. It is true.

If there comes a day that my worked fails I will back it up. I won't hide behind my expired warranty. If I installed something and it failed I will fix it. I think it funny that you think I am weak and misleading by saying I build it to last a lifetime and that I could easily weasel my way out of it by hiding behind a manufacturers warranty, but I think it is you easier to hide behind sorry Mr. Jones you warranty has expired.

Example: If a customer has a tile job from me and they have me do yearly maintenance as my warranty states, I will back it up long after my "warranty" expires. I will re-grout if it fails whether it is my fault, the house shifting or whatever the matter may be. Maybe it will drive me out of business, but maybe it is the way things should be done and I will be able to build a business around generational customers. If that somehow doesn't square up to your thinking or ideas, I could really care less. It's the right thing to do. :whistling

And there are manufacturers that carry a lifetime warranty...Moen is one. See you learn something everyday, and from me, Junior! :clap:

Lifetime Limited Warranty

Moen® products have been manufactured under the highest standards of quality and workmanship. Moen warrants to the original consumer purchaser for as long as the original consumer purchaser owns their home (the "Warranty Period" for homeowners), that this faucet will be leak- and drip-free during normal use and all parts and finishes of this faucet will be free from defects in material and manufacturing workmanship.


----------



## Floormasta78

Time out..............
............
............
........


----------



## ohiohomedoctor

T, I think you and kap should roshambo for the crown. :laughing:


----------



## TNTRenovate

ohiohomedoctor said:


> T, I think you and kap should roshambo for the crown. :laughing:


3 - 5 minute rounds in the Octagon! :laughing:

I am also a pretty good thumb wrestler...which ever receives the most votes!


----------



## ohiohomedoctor

TNTSERVICES said:


> 3 - 5 minute rounds in the Octagon! :laughing:
> 
> I am also a pretty good thumb wrestler...which ever receives the most votes!


And all the sudden being the young gun presents an inherent advantage.


----------



## I Mester

We only use 3" lag bolts with 8 inch washers.. :whistling:


only 3"? c'mon. u have to use the entire depth of the stud for it to grip properly!!


----------



## TNTRenovate

ISM37 said:


> We only use 3" lag bolts with 8 inch washers.. :whistling:
> 
> 
> only 3"? c'mon. u have to use the entire depth of the stud for it to grip properly!!


So you are saying use 5 1/2" all the way through with locking washers?


----------



## heathwwilson

Wow tnt I definately want to wish you luck in your future endeavors because I get a bad feeling that after a couple of years of being in buiseness your going to be doing so many grout repairs you wont have time to take on any paying jobs buy good luck with your lifetime labor and materials warranty. by the way a solid steel fixture is not attached to a wood frame that expands and contracts constantly due to changing weather and earth vibrations therefore stands a much better chance of lasting a lifetime not to mention that its just a fixture.try to find grout that has a warranty or a color guarantee for that matter.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor

heathwwilson said:


> try to find grout that has a warranty or a color guarantee for that matter.


I am pretty sure most grouts have just that :whistling:


----------



## TNTRenovate

heathwwilson said:


> Wow tnt I definately want to wish you luck in your future endeavors because I get a bad feeling that after a couple of years of being in buiseness your going to be doing so many grout repairs you wont have time to take on any paying jobs buy good luck with your lifetime labor and materials warranty. by the way a solid steel fixture is not attached to a wood frame that expands and contracts constantly due to changing weather and earth vibrations therefore stands a much better chance of lasting a lifetime not to mention that its just a fixture.try to find grout that has a warranty or a color guarantee for that matter.


Wow, your grout doesn't last more than a few years? I am confused, I thought that you did this as your trade. I only do it every few weeks.

Heck I installed tile and grout before I really new what I was doing and it still looks great, has no cracks. And I was only 16. Grout should last 10 years before needing to be replaced. If properly sealed and maintained it can last longer.

Next time I would suggest that you read the entire thread before responding. You can get your post count up, but you look quite foolish. If you had read the entire thread, especially the last few posts, you would have seen that I don't have a lifetime warranty. You would also see why I said what I did. So keep up the good posts!

I'll use KAPs quoting method to illustrate my point:

*"To be honest my actual warranty varies by the specific job."*
*
"Like I said, no matter what I answered you were ready to shoot it down. That was the reason I didn't post it, not because I was side stepping any question. I knew that no matter what I said you would shoot it down. BTW that's not my actual written warranty..."*


----------



## KAP

TNTSERVICES,

Post #121 - *"But since one of these is my actual warranty you will have a chance to comment on it."*

Post #131 - *"That was the reason I didn't post it, not because I was side stepping any question. I knew that no matter what I said you would shoot it down. BTW that's not my actual written warranty..."*

Post #131 - *"To be honest my actual warranty varies by the specific job. But I tell people I stand behind my work. It is not an empty statement. It's not misleading. It is true."* :laughing:

You do this with your own words... So were you lying in Post #121, or Post #131... you couldn't even make it through the last post before you changed it yet again from warranty to warranties and this time it's now "flexible" depending on the job, further throwing cold water on your whole *"built to last a lifetime"* mantra...  :no: :laughing::laughing::laughing:


I could care less how old you are... but anyone who has been in business for any length of time sees right through your BS... based on your own words, you have no idea how much you don't know... you're just flailing from one direction to another and a lawyer would have a field day with your postings... comparing Moen, a single manufacturer, to a product which is installed by you which contains MULTIPLE manufacturers under your "built to last a lifetime" umbrella just demonstrates your lack of knowledge here... the more you post, the more you reveal... you just don't know what you don't know... that's ok...

Good luck man... Unfortunately, time will teach you this lesson... your arrogance blinds you... I sincerely tried...  :no:

You just can't make this stuff up... :laughing::laughing:


----------



## angus242

I've been a bit MIA but just saw this. All I have to say is RIDICULOUS.


----------



## TNTRenovate

I am just having some fun...you gonna shut it down?


----------



## KAP

*"I am just having some fun..."*

Yeah, THAT's what he's doing... :no: :laughing: :laughing:


----------



## TNTRenovate

Yes KAP I lied. I think I already admitted that...who's late to the party?

I did it to prove a point. No matter what I said you were ready to shoot it down.

You have reduced yourself in the last several posts to insulting me. When you have to result to insult you have lost. I haven't insulted you...

You don't respect a different opinion.

BTW, those that know me, already know how much chit I am full of. Funny thing is, it took you less than 100 posts for people to see your true colors. :whistling

Still won't answer why you haven't said Angus has a lot to learn? You call him a pro and me someone who has a lot to learn? Seems like someone else doesn't answer all questions. But, I won't accuse you of avoiding anything. It's just the nature of the beast. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor

I think the heavy hand said chill... :whistling: 

I personally like backerboard. :laughing:


----------



## TNTRenovate

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I think the heavy hand said chill... :whistling:
> 
> I personally like backerboard. :laughing:


No he said RIDICULOUS and left it open.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor

TNTSERVICES said:


> No he said RIDICULOUS and left it open.


What does ridiculous mean anyways? Cary on.. :jester:


----------



## WarnerConstInc.

I just use luan with contact cement.


----------



## KAP

TNTSERVICES,

_*"Yes KAP I lied. I think I already admitted that...who's late to the party?"*_

Lied to prove a point... "true colors"... :laughing:


*"Still won't answer why you haven't said Angus has a lot to learn?"*

Show me where Angus states that he provides a lifetime warranty for materials and labor... He KNOWS better... and that's what I am trying to get you to understand...

*"You have reduced yourself in the last several posts to insulting me. When you have to result to insult you have lost. I haven't insulted you..."*

Really? Insulting? That's what you took from those posts... you need to put your ego aside...  and that is NOT an insult, but an observation...

*"You don't respect a different opinion."*

I disagree... you just don't like the answers... but even if that were true... Pot-kettle-black...

*"You call him a pro and me someone who has a lot to learn?"*

The difference in your posts and Angus' demonstrate that... you don't see this? You're really comparing yourself with Angus now?

TNTSERVICES, I don't even know you... for all I know, you could be a pro, I believe I even eluded to that earlier and wasn't questioning it. I am trying to show you that you are EXPOSING both you and your customers to issues down the road if you stick with the "built to last a lifetime" mantra. You've already forgotten alot of what you posted because you are flailing around... you need to check into concepts such as implied warranty, piercing the corporate veil, contract law (the homeowner is afforded any ambiguity, which your mantra is custom made for). 

On the same note, you don't know me... I've personally helped literally dozens of business owners over the years... I've also helped guys get started in their own business...

*"Seems like someone else doesn't answer all questions. But, I won't accuse you of avoiding anything. It's just the nature of the beast."*

Any others you need answered? I'm happy to answer any question related to the substance of the thread... :thumbsup:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I just use luan with contact cement.


Good and sturdy. Also good for sniffen.. :no:


----------



## TNTRenovate

KAP said:


> TNTSERVICES,
> 
> _*"Yes KAP I lied. I think I already admitted that...who's late to the party?"*_
> 
> Lied to prove a point... "true colors"... :laughing:
> 
> 
> *"Still won't answer why you haven't said Angus has a lot to learn?"*
> 
> Show me where Angus states that he provides a lifetime warranty for materials and labor... He KNOWS better... and that's what I am trying to get you to understand...
> 
> He didn't and neither did I until just a few posts ago.
> 
> *"You have reduced yourself in the last several posts to insulting me. When you have to result to insult you have lost. I haven't insulted you..."*
> 
> Really? Insulting? That's what you took from those posts... you need to put your ego aside...  and that is NOT an insult, but an observation... It's not ego, it's the truth and it was your intent. You said I have a lot to learn, when you know little to nothing about me. You called me Junior. You can side step it all you want, but the only reason to call me junior was to try and establish dominance. It can be seen as nothing but an insult.
> 
> *"You don't respect a different opinion."*
> 
> I disagree... you just don't like the answers... but even if that were true... Pot-kettle-black... So which is it? I am okay with the pot calling the kettle black, but are you? Not according to this. Either it's true or not.
> 
> *"You call him a pro and me someone who has a lot to learn?"*
> 
> The difference in your posts and Angus' demonstrate that... you don't see this? You're really comparing yourself with Angus now? Side stepping! Our answers yes. Your first response to him was "it obvious you are a pro". I said the same thing and game on.
> 
> TNTSERVICES, I don't even know you... for all I know, you could be a pro, No you have pretty much made it clear that you don't think I am a professional. Take your pick of posts.I believe I even eluded to that earlier and wasn't questioning it. I am trying to show you that you are EXPOSING both you and your customers to issues down the road if you stick with the "built to last a lifetime" mantra. You've already forgotten alot of what you posted because you are flailing around... you need to check into concepts such as implied warranty, piercing the corporate veil, contract law (the homeowner is afforded any ambiguity, which your mantra is custom made for).
> 
> Here is what Angus said on post #19
> 
> "When you're building a custom shower, ask yourself...would I warranty this installation for life? "
> 
> This is my post: #52
> 
> "Our goal as contractors, shouldn't be shoddy work that has to be replaced in 5-7 years, but a job that will last a lifetime."
> 
> Yet you chose to rebut mine...hmmmm
> 
> See post #62
> 
> I never laid claim to a lifetime warranty...just the same lifetime goal.
> 
> I even asked you if a lifetime warranty was the only option if my goal was to build it to last a lifetime. I never at that point said I told this to my customers or had it in writing, just that it was my goal to build things to last a lifetime.
> 
> Here is post #64:
> 
> _Originally Posted by KAP View Post
> As a pro, you should always do a good job... that's a given... I am not pushing for guys to use drywall screws for this application, as we don't, but I am saying that calling someone a hack because they use drywall screws in this application, with all else being equal is a little harsh..._
> 
> *Maybe I take my trade too seriously but I will always call a person that uses drywall screws for a CBU installation a hack. There's no excuse for it. *When your trade performs a task that will be covered up behind a finished wall, you should take all proper precautions to make sure it's done properly; $10 worth of screws included, especially when we're discussing a wet area. I'll tell ya a little secret; I don't even use drywall screws to install actual drywall in a bathroom.
> 
> Why is this such a problem for me? Because the dope using drywall screws for CBU will probably use them for cabinet installation, maybe even trim or doors, how about electrical outlets (yes, I've seen that do too). A small product choice, such as screws, can make a difference.
> 
> As for lifetime warranty, I have no idea who you were talking to since the quote was anonymous. *However, I do talk about showers built for a lifetime. I don't offer any specific warranty. I will tell customers the shower is constructed for the life of the house but going so far as a warranty, I don't put it in writing.* Let's be honest, I can die next week. What good will that warranty be then? I can decide I want to retire or change careers. There are a myriad of reasons why I don't put this in writing but I sure as hell will stand behind my installation for as long as I'm around.
> 
> See Angus was the one that said he tells his customers about built to last the lifetime of the house. He is the one that said he doesn't even have anything in writing.
> 
> See my point. You had an agenda, and it wasn't teaching me anything.
> 
> Again, you assume that I know nothing of these things based on me saying the same thing Angus said. I build it to last a lifetime. I haven't flailed on anything. I only baited you into showing your true colors. That you are more about shooting me down than actual conversation.
> 
> On the same note, you don't know me... I've personally helped literally dozens of business owners over the years... I've also helped guys get started in their own business...
> 
> *"Seems like someone else doesn't answer all questions. But, I won't accuse you of avoiding anything. It's just the nature of the beast."*
> 
> Any others you need answered? I'm happy to answer any question related to the substance of the thread... :thumbsup:



Any questions?


----------



## KAP

TNTSERVICES,

*"Any questions?"*

Yes, once and for all... what is your written warranty?... no ambiguity, just the facts...


----------



## TNTRenovate

KAP said:


> TNTSERVICES,
> 
> *"Any questions?"*
> 
> Yes, once and for all... what is your warranty?... no ambiguity, just the facts...


So you won't admit that you were wrong? You won't admit that you had me and Angus mixed up? You won't admit that I never claimed to tell my customers anything about a lifetime warranty? You won't admit that everything you laid claim to me was actually something you should have directed at Angus, yet you call him a pro and me someone who has a lot to learn?

Again, you are too much. Are you now going to tell Angus he has a lot to learn, seeing that he was the one that tells his customers about it being built to last the lifetime of the house? Are you going to argue that he needs to have something in writing? Why are you so focused on me?

Like I said, my warranty varies on the project and how we are compensated. The project that you displayed was for my wife's boss, he can call me anytime about anything. The written warranty on his contract is 10 year on labor and workmanship. He purchased all of the tile and grout, I bought everything underneath. I do not warranty any products a customer supplies.

I tell all of my customers how I am going to install it, what products I am going to use and how long it should last. I tell them that I will not only back my written warranty but I will help them resolve any issues after it expires. My feeling is, once it expires and something goes wrong due to my installation or installation methods, I need to back it up as long as I am in business or as long as they own the home. It's just the right thing to do. If that makes me a bad business man, I don't care. If I lose my arse, I don't care. It's still the right thing to do. If someone sues me because they don't feel I lived up to an implied warranty, so be it. I still did the right thing. As long as my family is provided for and no one can question my methods or results (who know what they are talking about), I am good! I don't need you or anyone else telling me I have a lot to learn. (Especially when they have me mixed up with someone else).


----------



## angus242

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I think the heavy hand said chill... :whistling:


If people want to waste that much of their personal time bouncing a ball off another's head only to have it bounced right back...it's all on them.

I'm just saying, it's a terrible read and does nothing for the thread or forum.

All I see is a tennis match where no one ever wins a point. Love/Love and not in the good way.

:sad:


----------



## TNTRenovate

angus242 said:


> If people want to waste that much of their personal time bouncing a ball off another's head only to have it bounced right back...it's all on them.
> 
> I'm just saying, it's a terrible read and does nothing for the thread or forum.
> 
> All I see is a tennis match where no one ever wins a point. Love/Love and not in the good way.
> 
> :sad:


Sorry, Angus.


----------



## KAP

TNTSERVICES,



TNTSERVICES said:


> So you won't admit that you were wrong? You won't admit that you had me and Angus mixed up? You won't admit that I never claimed to tell my customers anything about a lifetime warranty? You won't admit that everything you laid claim to me was actually something you should have directed at Angus, yet you call him a pro and me someone who has a lot to learn?
> 
> Again, you are too much. Are you now going to tell Angus he has a lot to learn, seeing that he was the one that tells his customers about it being built to last the lifetime of the house? Are you going to argue that he needs to have something in writing? Why are you so focused on me?
> 
> Like I said, my warranty varies on the project and how we are compensated. The project that you displayed was for my wife's boss, he can call me anytime about anything. The written warranty on his contract is 10 year on labor and workmanship. He purchased all of the tile and grout, I bought everything underneath. I do not warranty any products a customer supplies.
> 
> I tell all of my customers how I am going to install it, what products I am going to use and how long it should last. I tell them that I will not only back my written warranty but I will help them resolve any issues after it expires. My feeling is, once it expires and something goes wrong due to my installation or installation methods, I need to back it up as long as I am in business or as long as they own the home. It's just the right thing to do. If that makes me a bad business man, I don't care. If I lose my arse, I don't care. It's still the right thing to do. If someone sues me because they don't feel I lived up to an implied warranty, so be it. I still did the right thing. As long as my family is provided for and no one can question my methods or results (who know what they are talking about), I am good! I don't need you or anyone else telling me I have a lot to learn. (Especially when they have me mixed up with someone else).


*"So you won't admit that you were wrong? You won't admit that you had me and Angus mixed up?"*

Wrong? What makes you think I was confusing you with Angus? You were for arguing for and posting saying what your warranty supposedly was. You just did it again in the last post. You said that you tell them what your warranty is (this version) and then tell them that...

*"I will not only back my written warranty but I will help them resolve any issues after it expires. My feeling is, once it expires and something goes wrong due to my installation or installation methods, I need to back it up as long as I am in business or as long as they own the home. It's just the right thing to do. If that makes me a bad business man, I don't care. If I lose my arse, I don't care. It's still the right thing to do. If someone sues me because they don't feel I lived up to an implied warranty, so be it."*

Which is what you've been arguing for all along... it hasn't changed a thing... and your's and your clients exposure is STILL them same... 


With regards to Angus, he never said that he offered a lifetime warranty on either his install or products he installed. 


*"When you're building a custom shower, ask yourself...would I warranty this installation for life? "*

He was asking did I do the level of work where I would warranty this installation for life. And I went on to point out that "I guess you provide a warranty for life then?" He never went on to say that he did. As a matter of fact, in post #64, he SPECIFICALLY STATES he does offer any specific warranty but would back up his installation. I then argued that you are then providing a lifetime warranty and went on to post how he could integrate that philosophy into a lifetime warranty (as defined by personal or company demise). He then pointed out that lifetime to him meant the life of his company. 

You however, have not only been arguing for and intimating this point of lifetime warranty (even beyond the life of your business), you just REAFFIRMED IT IN WRITING in your last post. It hasn't changed one bit. You just said - *"I need to back it up as long as I am in business OR as long as they own the home."* The only problem with that is that in post #96, you also previously stated - *"If an installer has done everything right, how would it fail. I have never heard of a job failing done right."*

So despite your desperate attempt to deflect this to Angus... you've boxed yourself in... we've already discussed the fallacy of the manufacturers warranty's, so it's ALL ON YOU... even AFTER you're company is out of business because you put the qualifier *OR as long as they own their home,* and then went on to list the consequences of that decision. You have nowhere to run...


_*"Like I said, my warranty varies on the project and how we are compensated. The project that you displayed was for my wife's boss, he can call me anytime about anything. The written warranty on his contract is 10 year on labor and workmanship. He purchased all of the tile and grout, I bought everything underneath. I do not warranty any products a customer supplies."*_

And this proves my point about the manufacturer warranty... You gave him a 10-year warranty on labor and workmanship on products the customer provided. No warranty on the products. According to you, you wouldn't install products that are not up to manufacturers warranty, and according to you, if it is done right, there shouldn't BE any failure... If it failed, how exactly are you going to prove whose fault it was? You trap yourself in your own words... 

*"You won't admit that I never claimed to tell my customers anything about a lifetime warranty?"*

Because there's nothing to "admit"... it's just another lie... Refer to Post #141... Who were you providing that warranty to... non-customers?... :laughing:


*"I tell all of my customers how I am going to install it, what products I am going to use and how long it should last. I tell them that I will not only back my written warranty but I will help them resolve any issues after it expires."*

According to you, jobs don't fail if installed correctly... putting that joke of statement aside, so how long do you tell them it will last assuming YOU provided everything? Again, read that last statement from you - *"resolve any issued AFTER it expires"*... now research implied warranty... then research contract law as it relates to ambiguity... HO is afforded any ambiguity... and judges are notoriously known not to take the BS arguments from contractors like you are trying to foist on everyone here... 


*
"You won't admit that everything you laid claim to me was actually something you should have directed at Angus, yet you call him a pro and me someone who has a lot to learn?"*

Angus KNEW to not only NOT provide a lifetime warranty to the customer, but not even talk about manufacturer warranty... you didn't... you reaffirmed it all in your postings... yes, you do still have alot to learn. You just don't see it, but it is as plain as day to anyone in business more than 5 years. You probably don't even know why that is (if you do, prove me wrong).

When you say such a ridiculous statement as... *"I need to back it up as long as I am in business or as long as they own the home. It's just the right thing to do. If that makes me a bad business man, I don't care. If I lose my arse, I don't care.If someone sues me because they don't feel I lived up to an implied warranty, so be it. I still did the right thing."*

What you don't take into account what those actions entail. If you lose you arse, as you put it, you are affected, your business is affected, your family is affected, your employees (if any) are affected, the customer you were supposed to be serving is affected, ALL your customers are affected who then relied on your words (and if they still live in their house are still exposed)... and you somehow think that you *"still did the right thing"*... :no: That's armature thinking, not pro thinking... and that is not intended to be an insult, as I am sure you are taking it, but just a fact of life. You're not there yet, you're not looking big picture and if you don't change, it WILL bite you in the "arse"... and it is but one distinguishing difference between what you and Angus post... so I would respectfully suggest you stop trying to make ANY comparisons with him other than you are in the same industry...

A pro-businessman is more than a pro-installer... A pro doesn't rely on others to tell him he is a "pro". I've seen all the best intentions be laid to the wayside, relationships affected, all because they were on the same path as you... you can either grow from this or let your arrogance and need to prove your "pro status" to others blind you in the process... if you don't change, just remember these words... I PROMISE you it WILL bite you in the a**... I just hope the collateral damage is minimal...

I doubt many people are even reading our back and forth (but I guess who knows, right?), so the only reason I keep posting is I am trying to get you to understand... but you can lead a horse to water, you can't make him drink. 

You see TNTSERVICES, you don't have to parse my postings or wonder if I am telling the truth, or wonder if you are being misdirected or anything else... with you, that's exactly what people have to do... you keep talking about me "having an agenda", and then lay out for everyone your agenda, which was just proven wrong... :no::laughing: 

Let your Yes be Yes, and your No be No... 

So who exactly do you think you are kidding?...  :no:


----------



## greg24k

I hope this can be put on pause... I need more popcorn :thumbsup:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor

KAP said:


> TNTSERVICES,
> 
> "So you won't admit that you were wrong? You won't admit that you had me and Angus mixed up?"
> 
> Wrong? What makes you think I was confusing you with Angus? You were for arguing for and posting saying what your warranty supposedly was. You just did it again in the last post. You said that you tell them what your warranty is (this version) and then tell them that...
> 
> "I will not only back my written warranty but I will help them resolve any issues after it expires. My feeling is, once it expires and something goes wrong due to my installation or installation methods, I need to back it up as long as I am in business or as long as they own the home. It's just the right thing to do. If that makes me a bad business man, I don't care. If I lose my arse, I don't care. It's still the right thing to do. If someone sues me because they don't feel I lived up to an implied warranty, so be it."
> 
> Which is what you've been arguing for all along... it hasn't changed a thing... and your's and your clients exposure is STILL them same...
> 
> With regards to Angus, he never said that he offered a lifetime warranty on either his install or products he installed.
> 
> "When you're building a custom shower, ask yourself...would I warranty this installation for life? "
> 
> He was asking did I do the level of work where I would warranty this installation for life. And I went on to point out that "I guess you provide a warranty for life then?" He never went on to say that he did. As a matter of fact, in post #64, he SPECIFICALLY STATES he does offer any specific warranty but would back up his installation. I then argued that you are then providing a lifetime warranty and went on to post how he could integrate that philosophy into a lifetime warranty (as defined by personal or company demise). He then pointed out that lifetime to him meant the life of his company.
> 
> You however, have not only been arguing for and intimating this point of lifetime warranty (even beyond the life of your business), you just REAFFIRMED IT IN WRITING in your last post. It hasn't changed one bit. You just said - "I need to back it up as long as I am in business OR as long as they own the home." The only problem with that is that in post #96, you also previously stated - "If an installer has done everything right, how would it fail. I have never heard of a job failing done right."
> 
> So despite your desperate attempt to deflect this to Angus... you've boxed yourself in... we've already discussed the fallacy of the manufacturers warranty's, so it's ALL ON YOU... even AFTER you're company is out of business because you put the qualifier OR as long as they own their home, and then went on to list the consequences of that decision. You have nowhere to run...
> 
> "Like I said, my warranty varies on the project and how we are compensated. The project that you displayed was for my wife's boss, he can call me anytime about anything. The written warranty on his contract is 10 year on labor and workmanship. He purchased all of the tile and grout, I bought everything underneath. I do not warranty any products a customer supplies."
> 
> And this proves my point about the manufacturer warranty... You gave him a 10-year warranty on labor and workmanship on products the customer provided. No warranty on the products. According to you, you wouldn't install products that are not up to manufacturers warranty, and according to you, if it is done right, there shouldn't BE any failure... If it failed, how exactly are you going to prove whose fault it was? You trap yourself in your own words...
> 
> "You won't admit that I never claimed to tell my customers anything about a lifetime warranty?"
> 
> Because there's nothing to "admit"... it's just another lie... Refer to Post #141... Who were you providing that warranty to... non-customers?... :laughing:
> 
> "I tell all of my customers how I am going to install it, what products I am going to use and how long it should last. I tell them that I will not only back my written warranty but I will help them resolve any issues after it expires."
> 
> According to you, jobs don't fail if installed correctly... putting that joke of statement aside, so how long do you tell them it will last assuming YOU provided everything? Again, read that last statement from you - "resolve any issued AFTER it expires"... now research implied warranty... then research contract law as it relates to ambiguity... HO is afforded any ambiguity... and judges are notoriously known not to take the BS arguments from contractors like you are trying to foist on everyone here...
> 
> 
> "You won't admit that everything you laid claim to me was actually something you should have directed at Angus, yet you call him a pro and me someone who has a lot to learn?"
> 
> Angus KNEW to not only NOT provide a lifetime warranty to the customer, but not even talk about manufacturer warranty... you didn't... you reaffirmed it all in your postings... yes, you do still have alot to learn. You just don't see it, but it is as plain as day to anyone in business more than 5 years. You probably don't even know why that is (if you do, prove me wrong).
> 
> When you say such a ridiculous statement as... "I need to back it up as long as I am in business or as long as they own the home. It's just the right thing to do. If that makes me a bad business man, I don't care. If I lose my arse, I don't care.If someone sues me because they don't feel I lived up to an implied warranty, so be it. I still did the right thing."
> 
> What you don't take into account what those actions entail. If you lose you arse, as you put it, you are affected, your business is affected, your family is affected, your employees (if any) are affected, the customer you were supposed to be serving is affected, ALL your customers are affected who then relied on your words (and if they still live in their house are still exposed)... and you somehow think that you "still did the right thing"... :no: That's armature thinking, not pro thinking... and that is not intended to be an insult, as I am sure you are taking it, but just a fact of life. You're not there yet, you're not looking big picture and if you don't change, it WILL bite you in the "arse"... and it is but one distinguishing difference between what you and Angus post... so I would respectfully suggest you stop trying to make ANY comparisons with him other than you are in the same industry...
> 
> A pro-businessman is more than a pro-installer... A pro doesn't rely on others to tell him he is a "pro". I've seen all the best intentions be laid to the wayside, relationships affected, all because they were on the same path as you... you can either grow from this or let your arrogance and need to prove your "pro status" to others blind you in the process... if you don't change, just remember these words... I PROMISE you it WILL bite you in the a**... I just hope the collateral damage is minimal...
> 
> I doubt many people are even reading our back and forth (but I guess who knows, right?), so the only reason I keep posting is I am trying to get you to understand... but you can lead a horse to water, you can't make him drink.
> 
> You see TNTSERVICES, you don't have to parse my postings or wonder if I am telling the truth, or wonder if you are being misdirected or anything else... with you, that's exactly what people have to do... you keep talking about me "having an agenda", and then lay out for everyone your agenda, which was just proven wrong... :no::laughing:
> 
> Let your Yes be Yes, and your No be No...
> 
> So who exactly do you think you are kidding?...  :no:


Bounce....


----------



## KAP

greg24k said:


> I hope this can be put on pause... I need more popcorn :thumbsup:


----------

