# Charging for sundries



## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

When doing time and materials work, do you guys charge for small, miscellaneous supplies? I'm talking nuts, bolts, screws, anchors, etc? I don't, but I think I might try. 

I had to sub out a portion of a job a short while back to a plumber. It was just a 2 day T&M thing for him. When I got his bill, I noticed that absolutely everything was itemized on the bill. Nuts, bolts, screws, anchors, and even 2 oz. of plumber's putty and 1/4 tube silicone. This didn't tick me off at all. In fact, it made me smile that he managed to keep track of that stuff.

Is this crazy? Or a worthy idea? By not charging for it presently, I don't believe that I'm giving it away for free. I havn't specifically calculated "hardware" into the overhead, but I've always considered small sundries part of the overhead. 

What do you all think?


----------



## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

T&M

I charge for everything and leave the item if not completely used or not charge and take the left overs. Depends how much is left and the item.

If a bid items are figured into overhead.


----------



## Donedat (Aug 13, 2005)

I do package deals. If I thing the customer is actually interested in the details I will list all the things that go into the price right on the estimate. One seasoned contractor told me to charge a lot and tell the customer all the things that go into the price. That way they will feel like they know where their money is going.


----------



## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I've always charged a flat 10% for anything that I'm not making a greater profit on.


----------



## housedocs (Jan 10, 2005)

I sort of follow Teeter's example, I charge a flat 8% based upon the materials cost of the job. This I figure to cover nuts, bolts, etc and also to account for expendable items, like saw blades and drill bits. I usually word it something like this,

Expendable materials surcharge, (this covers small expendable items not line item charged on your invoice, nuts, bolts, blades, & bits) $55

I guess there are many ways to look at that, but I figure these are things that I am using and must be replaced periodically, therefore I need to recover those costs from clients.


----------



## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

I think if I started listing nuts and bolts I might look kinda petty. I usually guess the cost and add it on to the rate. After so many years, I can guess the nuts and bolts pretty damn close.

Bob


----------



## housedocs (Jan 10, 2005)

I've had clients that have freaked over the costs of some small items. Quality deck screws for example, most members of the general public probably aren't aware that decent torx head 3-1/2" screws run just over $5 a lb.

Had a perspective client for a deck job comment that they cost more than t-bone steak! Never got the job.:no:


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I don't do T&M jobs but it does stand for Time & Materials so if it goes into the job I don't see how you wouldn't be justified charging it. 

On T&M do you work out a mark-up for the materials also or is it just cost?

I always add into my jobs a misc charge of $100.00 just to cover blue tape, plastic tarps, trash bags, gloves, etc...

It's like other companies that have an envirnomental charge say when you buy new tires to dispose of them.


----------



## MinConst (Oct 16, 2004)

This reminds me of a hospital bill. $5.00 for and aspirin, 2 bucks for a band-aid.
I charge Time and Mat for most jobs and do add the Little things in as a lump sum as Materials. I don't like to break it all out. I think it looks petty. But if you don't charge you are loosing money. I don't like to loose money.:no:


----------



## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Charge for everything. I yell at my guys, not literally, when they say "Oh I had it on the truck." or "It was only a few shingles I took from storage". If you think that's cheap, at the end of the year add it all up and it will easily buy the christmas party.


----------



## rservices (Aug 3, 2005)

*nickels and dimes add up to Bigg $$$$$$$*

if I do a a punch list for a customer I charge 10.00 above my trip charge for misc screws and things, if it is a straight repair it's in the cost. Example feild tile cost me about 1.12 a piece I charge 5.00 a piece, that includes my mortar, grout and ,mark up. If it's a large repair tile cost +mortar+ grout+ mark-up.

I dont want to make my invoices look like I'm nickel and dimeing them, but they will usally try to nickel and dime me.


----------



## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I spent a few minutes this evening figuring what some of the items that I never charged for would retail for. For instance, a #10-14 red Rawl plug would be 8 cents and a #12 x 1-1/2" zinc plated hex washer head screw would be 14 cents. That's no small potatos when you add up a bunch of them. I never really realized that I pay about 7 bucks for a can (aerosol can) of silicone sealant. Maybe I should think about switching to tubes.


----------



## plumguy (May 29, 2005)

I don't usually get that specific in my billling as far as itemizing. For instance I may charge $1.50 per 1/2copper fitting and this will cover cleaning brush,sandpaper,flux,propane,solder etc.


----------



## The Yaz Man (Oct 4, 2005)

If it's open ended service calls or light duty work collect your receipts and tally them up. Once tallied copy and present with a 20% mark-up for overhead and profit. 

The 20% can vary based on size of job to 35%. The smaller the job the greater the mark-up to make up for time spent vs. earned monies. Less fat on the smaller ones right?

Really this should take into account the sundries plus the gas, (which really takes it's toll lately) and other things not generally accounted for in time or material.


----------



## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

The Yaz Man said:


> ... collect your receipts and tally them up. Once tallied copy and present with a 20% mark-up for overhead and profit.
> 
> The 20% can vary based on size of job to 35%...


Yaz, I appreciate your willingness to help me with my question. I must say, however, that this is profoundly bad advice that you've given. Where did those numbers come from? Out of the clear blue sky? Perhaps these numbers work for you, and they may work for others. They will not work for me, unless I intend to switch my diet to beans and weenies.


----------



## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

When I started out figuring out my costs, i.e. cost per square foot for decks or cost per linear foot for fencing, I took into account ALL the material costs. This included the cement, sonotubes, lag bolts, fence clips, etc., etc. - right down to the number of screws and/or nails needed for a job. I also re-work these numbers every couple of jobs, just to make sure my pricing is still in line. Also, the type of deck can vary the pricing of some of these items. For example, the fasteners for Trex are significantly higher than the screws for Cedar or PT.

The above may not apply exactly to your original question but my point is that I think you should take into account everything you spend on a job and make sure you're compensated for it. Maybe not itemize it line by line but definately make sure you're reimbursed for everything.


----------



## The Yaz Man (Oct 4, 2005)

I think that it maybe profoundly misplaced advice. It does work for me. I bill by hour and that is where my real profit margin lies. Material data and costing mark-ups apply well for me and as I stated the mark-up is not profit driven it's really an o+p exchange that covers miscellany. Which I think was the foundation of your original post. 

And no the 20 to 35% mark up is a benchmark not a product of gazing at clouds. And maybe as an electrician you don't deal with it or maybe I was taught wrong. I spent many years as a project manager for a very large General Contracting Firm they seemed to do well with it.

The 20 to 35%, which was pounded into my head, is based upon a 10 and 10 theory utilized in the insurance adjusting business. That theory was based upon the contractors who many years ago set terms with carriers to do work of many sizes, not just service based, without proposals. It developed out of a need to repair and restore property at an expedited rate. One takes the Labor and Material costs and adds ten percent for overhead and rolls a further cumulating ten percent for profit. 

In recent years the ten and ten has creeped toward a non-cumulative 20% since, as I'm profoundly sure you know, the cumulating 10 and 10 adds an additional 1% profit to the bottom line. 

When applied to standard contract actions not constricted by the insurance carriers a 20 to 35% is generally used. I have taken that standard billing procedure learned at a powerhouse here in New York and moved onto my own company where it has succeeded very nicely.

The original question of sundries is noted and I only threw my two cents in MD. I can only comment on what I know and by your post you seemed almost offended by my method and any mention of it. I am profoundly sorry.


----------



## The Yaz Man (Oct 4, 2005)

I like Decks etc 's method for general and continued pricing. I can't use it because of my short attention span. 

Mostly I walk a job, eyeball it and a throw a number at it. I will not state the rest of my negotiation methods concerning setting final price. I still have balck and blues from my previous thread.


----------



## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

I think a 10% markup on a product you get a contractor discount on is fair. Right maybe I am wrong.


----------



## The Yaz Man (Oct 4, 2005)

Well who gets the break Justa? I act as the General Contractor and receive no discount at all. I get a reduced rate, presumably wholesale, that is then marked up to retail on the direct contract. 

There is no such thing as a discount for us.

Essentially you act as a purchasing agent at the wholesale level. Hence resail certificates. Then you boost the cost back to the retail level where you collect the sales tax and deliver it at the retail rate to the Fed. 

The first 10% is the retail end or Overhead integer. The 2nd is the Profit margin. All of this is structured theory. It's going to vary from me to you to MD. We are all right if we survive and succeed.


----------



## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Your right it's not really a discount it's wholesale price. I would say though over 20% might be pushing it. Especially when some H.O. can go to hd and price check.


----------



## The Yaz Man (Oct 4, 2005)

Price check what? I have never blind marked a single screw. I tell my clients and state it in the contract that material allocations include a 20% to 35% mark-up. I explain it as handling and delivery. And I am very straight with people, especially those I have not done business with before, that I am here to make money there is a mark-up on everything I handle, it's business. 

It covers my men's time at Home Depot, my gas, my handling, and even the extended liablitiy of having had purchased it. If my plumber installs a Delta shower body and it fails, do I call Delta and wait for them to fix it. No. I buy a replacement and send the guy out, pay him for the time mind you and eat it. Those mark-ups are job insurance. They pay for the unseen and unexpected. It's not a bludgeoning of the client. 

Unltimately people just want to be happy. If the job is completed in a resonable amount of time and a professional product is the end result people will pay. It is expected that you pay for quality. Quality costs.


----------



## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

The Yaz Man said:


> Price check what? I have never blind marked a single screw. I tell my clients and state it in the contract that material allocations include a 20% to 35% mark-up. I explain it as handling and delivery. And I am very straight with people, especially those I have not done business with before, that I am here to make money there is a mark-up on everything I handle, it's business.
> 
> It covers my men's time at Home Depot, my gas, my handling, and even the extended liablitiy of having had purchased it. If my plumber installs a Delta shower body and it fails, do I call Delta and wait for them to fix it. No. I buy a replacement and send the guy out, pay him for the time mind you and eat it. Those mark-ups are job insurance. They pay for the unseen and unexpected. It's not a bludgeoning of the client.
> 
> Unltimately people just want to be happy. If the job is completed in a resonable amount of time and a professional product is the end result people will pay. It is expected that you pay for quality. Quality costs.



If you can get it I say do it. There is alot of supply houses (wholesalers) out this way so HD and lowes are not on the top of the list of a place to buy supplies. Most are strategicly placed (multiple locations).


----------



## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I can see that this thread is becoming unnecessarily polluted with how to price a bid job. That is not what I asked about. In fact, my question was much simpler. It related to time and material work (which are generally service calls or small jobs), which is a world away from estimating or bidding. I have come to realize that the vast majority of tradesmen don't do service calls or time and material work per se, with the main exceptions being plumbers, electricians and possibly roofers, I think. Maybe I asked the right question, but to the wrong group of people.


----------



## The Yaz Man (Oct 4, 2005)

Remember Justa I am not a technical guy in this business. All I am is a real good salesman with an ample vocabulary and a long list of subs. My payroll guys insulate, rock, paint, hang doors and trim. That is it. The rest is outsourced.

I don't know where my hammer is anymore and rarely if ever do I pull out a tape measure. I close deals, send the right guys, and wait to get my money. Sounds kinda impersonal and I get the vibe on this board unliked but it's as valid as what you do.

I keep two to three sub crews busy along with the ten guys on my payroll year round. We have it down to a system. And what counts is my guys are paid well, the jobs come out great and the people reccomend me to friends and family.


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

JustaFramer said:


> I think a 10% markup on a product you get a contractor discount on is fair. Right maybe I am wrong.


Yikes, I try to maintain a 40% average markup on anything I purchase for the job.


----------



## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Yikes, I try to maintain a 40% average markup on anything I purchase for the job.


Must be nice. But I do charge pick and delivery into the hourly wage of a T&M job. :biggrin: Probably balances out. If I pick up a 3 dollar strap and charge plus 40% that won't pay for gas.


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

JustaFramer said:


> Must be nice. But I do charge pick and delivery into the hourly wage of a T&M job. :biggrin: Probably balances out. If I pick up a 3 dollar strap and charge plus 40% that won't pay for gas.


Yeah, I could see that not working, but for me it is more expensive stuff. I put a sink into a remodel that I buy for $100 bucks I am trying to sell it in the job for $140. A sub does $500 worth of plumbing I try to sell it in the job for $700. I can't get that mark up on everything, tile I get 25% because that is the discount I get and the tile company quotes my customers the retail price when they go there to select tile. Granite counters I can't see 40% because I hate to say it, but Home Depot has gotten into every bodies consciousness out here as the bench mark, so I try hard to get 10-15% on that, but I usually make up for it with add ons such as tile back splashes and stuff like that, anything that adds value to the job and helps it become custom over cookie cutter which HD is.


----------

