# The real problem with undocumented workers in my area



## NJGC (Apr 5, 2014)

Kowboy said:


> Of course, because everyone knows that employers these days are altruistically concerned with worker safety, working conditions, pay, and benefits and give these things out of the goodness of their hearts. Bless them.


Regurgitating all the rhetoric and bs benefits the union supposedly brought to the working man is not going to change my mind or the minds of the other folks that see that crap for what it is. We don't need labor cartels! My men all make a good wage and if they are unhappy, are free to go elsewhere

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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

NJGC said:


> Regurgitating all the rhetoric and bs benefits the union supposedly brought to the working man is not going to change my mind or the minds of the other folks that see that crap for what it is. We don't need labor cartels! My men all make a good wage and if they are unhappy, are free to go elsewhere
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk




That's great that you treat your workers fairly, we do as well however most businesses and employers dont.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Windycity said:


> That's great that you treat your workers fairly, we do as well however most businesses and employers dont.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Most don't?


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## NJGC (Apr 5, 2014)

Windycity said:


> That's great that you treat your workers fairly, we do as well however most businesses and employers dont.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I tend to think some don't but the vast majority do treat workers right

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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

Tom M said:


> People just don't want to pay anything when it comes to this type of work there's a lot of freedom to sidestep it.
> 
> I brought this up in the economy thread and politics. I got a call last month to look at kitchen and some remodeling I got there the owner was trying to get me to inspect work of somebody else they hired. WTF.
> 
> ...


Estimates are free what u bitchin at ?, so are home inspections, you have nothing else to do than run around for zero, tell that bitc# to Fuc% OFF, these people are so fuc%ing stupid they have no idea.


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## Joe Pro (Aug 14, 2016)

NJGC said:


> Maybe, but only after the economy tanks. We aren't just talking about construction here. Just figure on the price of all goods and services going up by at least a third plus a shortage of food to go with.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I'm confused, if the illegal stuff goes away people have to charge real prices for their services, across the board. A laborer would get what he's worth rather than minimum wage. A cook would get a living wage, cleaners could charge what it takes to clean a house.

Take away the poverty wages with zero benefits you will find people want to work. A days pay here, is equal to a weeks pay from SA is what I was told. Of course they will work 12 hrs a day 7 days a week. The amount they take off the system combined with not paying in is the real problem, not filling their job. Heck, they leave after 7-10 years. I think we should have a tax accountant at western union where they wire they money home.

I'm fine paying $15 for a burger if everyone has to play by the rules. I have 4 employees and I pay very well, this issue doesn't effect my business at all. I just don't see how entry level employees compete against these type of illegal workers.


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

The problem is these folks get here to the USA from all over the world.

Then Americans hire them, why becuase they are willing to work cheap, we take advantge or exploit them.

So if Americans did not hire these folks they would not be here and if they got here and have no work why stay.

So here's a thought if your hire a illegal first offence 10 grand fine second offence 20 grand five years in the slammer.


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## rocspec (Nov 25, 2015)

When I was a kid in the late 70s all of my friends worked as dishwashers at a local restaurant. It was the first step to getting a waiter gig. We also worked on landscaping crews, machine shops, etc. Italians were, for the most part, the landscapers of the day. I suppose you could say that Mexicans are the new Italians! The point is: everyone I knew worked with or without working papers. 16 was the official age. It wasn't even a question. If you wanted stuff, you worked. Our school had a work program starting in 10th grade. There was even an employer list available in guidance that one could interview for. Not too long ago most homegrown young people were still willing to do real work and did so. That doesn't seem to be the case today.

Illegals:

Several years ago I had a nice extension job. Within minutes of finishing the house wrap on the shell a guy blows a tendon. That night I call everyone I know in a panic. Everyone's tied up. The local HD parking lot was always packed with amigos. I don't do that. There was an old timey lumber yard across the street and a block down. I remembered seeing a sign on a trailer in the lot next to it with the town's name on it and under that "workers available". So I went in. I discussed who I was looking for. They brought a guy in. So I asked about paperwork. They said there's no paperwork. I asked for a SSN. They said no SSN. I asked if he was legal. They said no. So I said" Are you telling me this is a town sanctioned illegal worker kiosk or something?"? They said yes. I said "What if I pull outta here and get popped by the authorities? I'd be ruined" The lady just shrugged and said it was better to have them here than the parking lot at HD. I left.

I'm pretty sure the situation is hopeless. Just do what you can while you can. Working your way towards the higher end/ highly skilled jobs is the answer IMO. For now anyway.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

sunkist said:


> The problem is these folks get here to the USA from all over the world.
> 
> Then Americans hire them, why becuase they are willing to work cheap, we take advantge or exploit them.
> 
> ...


Really????? Chicken or the egg....

I remember back in 94-95 a certain town I worked in had loads of illegals standing curbside. I couldn't believe it. First the landscapers then roofers. So your right there was abuse.

Local police were issuing fines to the contractors $500/ man. That could have nipped it in the bud instead it lasted a couple of months. That was the beginning of the end.

Now it's all about them and no one in country cares but us trying to balance it all out and we're becoming the minority.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

sunkist said:


> Estimates are free what u bitchin at ?, so are home inspections, you have nothing else to do than run around for zero, tell that bitc# to Fuc% OFF, these people are so fuc%ing stupid they have no idea.


I get 5 of these calls for every one that understands your time and process have value.


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## J.C. (Sep 28, 2009)

Windycity said:


> So tell me who deserves a decent wage? Because all of the skilled trades have taking a beating with wages over the years... nobody is immune from it electricians, heating guys, carpenters, concrete guys,
> 
> Everyone is replaceable with someone cheaper and my point is that if the wages and benefits were decent then there would be plenty of Americans willing to do chit jobs. Myself included, i dont mind working a hard day doing anything if the pay was reasonable. I am not going to work my butt off for minimum wage washing dishes when I could work at Home Depot as a cashier for the same pay
> 
> ...


Say something bad about a CEO making millions a year and you'll learn who they defend. :blink:


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

J.C. said:


> Say something bad about a CEO making millions a year and you'll learn who they defend. :blink:


Does this include union CEOs who make $300-$500K a year? Or only corporate CEOs who make over a $million?


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

EricBrancard said:


> Does this include union CEOs who make $300-$500K a year? Or only corporate CEOs who make over a $million?


Telford (Plumbers union) makes $611,000.00....

Leave it to a plumber.....


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Robie said:


> Telford (Plumbers union) makes $611,000.00....
> 
> Leave it to a plumber.....


The AFL CIO has an "Executive Paywatch" section on their site. They state that the average CEO makes 335x the average non supervisory employee. I don't think they mention that Richard Trumka makes 8x the wage of that average employee. While there is a huge spread between 335x and 8x, there's also a huge spread in value added. 

Jeff Imelt makes about $30MM/yr. But he runs GE. GE provides far more value to human kind than Trumka and the AFL CIO ever will.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Robie said:


> Telford (Plumbers union) makes $611,000.00....
> 
> Leave it to a plumber.....


And the union worker drones will cheer him on and say he's worth it as long as he keeps them working. But he doesn't actually create work. Companies create the work. He organizes labor to funnel money into political coffers and his own pocket under the false notion of "brotherhood." Let me know how that "brotherhood" works out if someone doesn't want to pay dues.


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## J.C. (Sep 28, 2009)

Ohhh, only corporate CEO's. They're the only ones that actually deserve to be able to support themselves.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

J.C. said:


> Ohhh, only corporate CEO's. They're the only ones that actually deserve to be able to support themselves.


You're the one who brought CEO pay into the discussion. What say you? Is it fair that Trumka makes 8x what the person paying his salary makes? Unlike a corporate CEO, his salary is truly derived off the backs of the union membership. But he and Elizabeth Warren (who rails against the cost of education while she took an enormous salary which is one of the reasons education costs are so high) are like heroes to you.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

> In 2014, FrontPageMag noted “Harvard Law paid Warren $350,000 to teach a single course.”


http://www.theamericanmirror.com/elizabeth-warren-prof-paid-400k-teach-one-class-calls-trump-greedy/


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Robie said:


> http://www.theamericanmirror.com/elizabeth-warren-prof-paid-400k-teach-one-class-calls-trump-greedy/


You're talking about the salary of an Executive Vice President level individual who works between 60-80 hours a week creating actual value in the market. But that side of the 1% is demonized while the academic side of the 1% is lauded.


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## Krok (Jul 9, 2016)

Some places to get a trade name, you need to register it with the Sec of state. Other states, you can just add that name to a bank account.
I do believe there's an IRS rule that says checks have to be made out to the business/trade name as that way it's traceable....but they have to want to actually do that kine of investigative work, which most of the time they don't. Like HUD said, it's not our job to verify the identity of the borrower.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

NJGC said:


> Regurgitating all the rhetoric and bs benefits the union supposedly brought to the working man is not going to change my mind or the minds of the other folks that see that crap for what it is. We don't need labor cartels! My men all make a good wage and if they are unhappy, are free to go elsewhere


It always saddens me when people who have never taken a history or economics class speak about unions. The middle class, in addition to week-ends, would not exist in this country without the labor movement.

But go ahead in your ignorance. Ignore all the blood and death that was shed to provide virtually everything we have. You'd never piss on a veteran's grave, but you have no problem pissing on the graves of those who fought another equally important war.

You disgust me.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> You're talking about the salary of an Executive Vice President level individual who works between 60-80 hours a week creating actual value in the market. But that side of the 1% is demonized while the academic side of the 1% is lauded.


I've had the pleasure of working with some good, well paid CEO's and they are worth every damn dime. Never worked for any union CEO's so I can't speak first hand, but I can say none have ever impressed me from what I have come to understand. The best union leader I have met is from Disney...

As far as illegals go, bring it on baby! Makes a good viable craftsman worth so much more and let's the cream float to the top. Not that illegals can't be, but if they're talented, someone is going to make sure they're held onto. We've lost free market principals but there's a beauty about them, they don't die, they just get forgotten. 

Much like calculus just because one forgets it doesn't mean it's non-existent, it just means it needs to be relearned. The free market principals that has everyone in the world talking to each other and a trip across the world a few hours away, are just a couple lessons away, all that we have to apply is a little logic.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Kowboy said:


> It always saddens me when people who have never taken a history or economics class speak about unions. The middle class, in addition to week-ends, would not exist in this country without the labor movement.
> 
> But go ahead in your ignorance. Ignore all the blood and death that was shed to provide virtually everything we have. You'd never piss on a veteran's grave, but you have no problem pissing on the graves of those who fought another equally important war.
> 
> You disgust me.


Your thoughts on public sector unions?


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> It always saddens me when people who have never taken a history or economics class speak about unions. The middle class, in addition to week-ends, would not exist in this country without the labor movement.
> 
> But go ahead in your ignorance. Ignore all the blood and death that was shed to provide virtually everything we have. You'd never piss on a veteran's grave, but you have no problem pissing on the graves of those who fought another equally important war.
> 
> You disgust me.


They served a great purpose and did a great job. Like many things though, they find themselves in a conundrum after succeeding and try to find a reason to stay relevant. In finding that it's been in politics. A labor party has no business in siding with a political party as a whole, but they do, to stay relevant.

This very thread is an example how their purpose is now a failure, they would be struggling to find illegal workers but instead promote the party that invites them. Relevancy... Making people feel important well past their importance.


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## NJGC (Apr 5, 2014)

Kowboy said:


> It always saddens me when people who have never taken a history or economics class speak about unions. The middle class, in addition to week-ends, would not exist in this country without the labor movement.
> 
> But go ahead in your ignorance. Ignore all the blood and death that was shed to provide virtually everything we have. You'd never piss on a veteran's grave, but you have no problem pissing on the graves of those who fought another equally important war.
> 
> You disgust me.


Your easily disgusted and sadly misinformed.......or probably more like brainwashed by the union. Why on earth would I take a history or economics class on unions?












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## J.C. (Sep 28, 2009)

You guys are right! Corporate CEO's have been taken advantage of for so long!  Where do I mail my check?


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## J.C. (Sep 28, 2009)

NJGC said:


> Your easily disgusted and sadly misinformed.......or probably more like brainwashed by the union. Why on earth would I take a history or economics class on unions?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Henry Ford tried to increase his workers salarys??? WTF???


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

http://www.npr.org/2014/01/27/267145552/the-middle-class-took-off-100-years-ago-thanks-to-henry-ford


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

J.C. said:


> You guys are right! Corporate CEO's have been taken advantage of for so long!  Where do I mail my check?


Where is this being said? Once again, you were the one brought up CEOs.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

J.C. said:


> You guys are right! Corporate CEO's have been taken advantage of for so long!  Where do I mail my check?


So is it your opinion that CEO's should get paid close to the same as a worker? How about management? Cleaning lady?

In my estimation the CEO of large corporation is worth about 330X as much as a regular employee. Employee is one of 10's of thousands, CEO is one job. Wanna get there? Make yourself more valuable. Where's the incentive to be the best and brightest if there is no payoff to be the best and brightest?


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Deckhead said:


> So is it your opinion that CEO's should get paid close to the same as a worker? How about management? Cleaning lady?
> 
> In my estimation the CEO of large corporation is worth about 330X as much as a regular employee. Employee is one of 10's of thousands, CEO is one job. Wanna get there? Make yourself more valuable. Where's the incentive to be the best and brightest if there is no payoff to be the best and brightest?


There are some CEOs that are grossly overpaid for their performance just like there are people who make $30K/year who are grossly overpaid for their performance. 

Also, the stats are pretty skewed by excluding all management positions in the calculations.

I also wonder how many people who are concerned about getting paid prevailing wage, getting sick time, overtime, vacation time, pensions, healthcare, etc act when getting work done on their own home? Do they go out and pay top dollar for union workers? Or do they hire someone under the table for $12/hr?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

J.C. said:


> You guys are right! Corporate CEO's have been taken advantage of for so long!  Where do I mail my check?


The average guy in our industry makes about $32K/year and the average American around $49K... if you, as a business owner, were to make $100K/yr. or more, or even expanded across states to make $500K - $1M/ year, do you feel you should have to give up that difference to the government because you make 2-3X more and upwards or 10-32X or higher? Or do you feel, as a CEO of your business, you and your business should have the right to make that determination of your compensation?




J.C. said:


> Henry Ford tried to increase his workers salarys??? WTF???


It actually highlights and illustrates this issue very well on many levels... unless the market is warped by abnormal conditions (flooding a market for example), capitalism and competition do indeed make higher wages and better working conditions...

It certainly seems you are against outside influence on your market...


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> There are some CEOs that are grossly overpaid for their performance just like there are people who make $30K/year who are grossly overpaid for their performance.
> 
> Also, the stats are pretty skewed by excluding all management positions in the calculations.


Well, sure there are (both cases), but that isn't up to public opinion. The people who hired them are there to fire them. Funny how people love to get mad at the people who fix massive problems but laud the one's who fix small one's by creating large one's.

Stepping over dollars to pick up dimes.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

J.C. said:


> Say something bad about a CEO making millions a year and you'll learn who they defend. :blink:


Salary caps for execs did not work for Ben and Jerry's.

Tom


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> There are some CEOs that are grossly overpaid for their performance just like there are people who make $30K/year who are grossly overpaid for their performance.
> 
> Also, the stats are pretty skewed by excluding all management positions in the calculations.
> 
> I also wonder how many people who are concerned about getting paid prevailing wage, getting sick time, overtime, vacation time, pensions, healthcare, etc act when getting work done on their own home? Do they go out and pay top dollar for union workers? Or do they hire someone under the table for $12/hr?


The union guys in Austin hired other union guys for side work and I bet work on their own home for beer money. Half the time they were laid off and on unemployment. Complete hypocrisy


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Windycity said:


> That's great that you treat your workers fairly, we do as well however most businesses and employers dont.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


"Fair" is subjective. What is fair? Who cares decides this? Obviously not talking about decency and safety I'm talking compensation


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> Does this include union CEOs who make $300-$500K a year? Or only corporate CEOs who make over a $million?


Where does it stop from there? Is it fair a contractor makes 4 times what his foreman makes? Do you take into account the lean years the contractor is slaving away to not lose accounts much money?


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

NJGC said:


> Call them whatever you want but without them *our economy takes a dump guaranteed*.
> 
> I also voted for Trump.


That's the same thing most Americans would have said if we would have been told ahead of time that 14 million illegals would be coming to our country and taking advantage of our government's welfare and health benefits, taxes all the while lowering the wages for all Americans... :whistling


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## NJGC (Apr 5, 2014)

Sir Mixalot said:


> That's the same thing most Americans would have said if we would have been told ahead of time that 14 million illegals would be coming to our country and taking advantage of our government's welfare and health benefits, taxes all the while lowering the wages for all Americans... :whistling


Where are you guys coming up with the lower wages? I pay people the same no matter their country of origin, skin color etc. According to their abilities. 

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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

NJGC said:


> Where are you guys coming up with the lower wages?


It's not only about wages. Illegal aliens have to work inside a bomb (a retail store being filled with atomized flammable paint) because they won't risk complaining:

http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/why-i-hate-commercial-construction-316449/

But no worries, the good-hearted contractors would never exploit illegals or anyone else for profit. Don't need no stinkin' union.


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## NJGC (Apr 5, 2014)

flashheatingand said:


> I think something similar happens at the massage and nail parlors. For an anniversary, I agreed to go get a massage with her. Something seemed suspicious, and they rates were significantly lower. Decent massage and all, but.... I mentioned something about this. Many, a blind eye was turned. I don't like it.


You get happy ending?

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## NJGC (Apr 5, 2014)

builderbruce said:


> I was gonna write the exact same thing but you beat me to it...:clap:


Absolutely wrong! Young men and or women do not and will not fill these positions it's been proven in other states when all the immigrants were driven out .......crops rotted in the field. 

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## builderbruce (Jan 2, 2017)

They did not entirely take away the other benefits then.....if the alternative is starve to death or pick crops, eventually the crops will get picked.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

AFAIK, there are still places that close the schools during harvest season. Idaho and Maine potato crop harvest have lots of kids working.


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## NJGC (Apr 5, 2014)

builderbruce said:


> They did not entirely take away the other benefits then.....if the alternative is starve to death or pick crops, eventually the crops will get picked.


But taking away benefits hasn't been proposed. The gubment will just pay the inflated food costs while the rest of us starve. 

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## NJGC (Apr 5, 2014)

hdavis said:


> AFAIK, there are still places that close the schools during harvest season. Idaho and Maine potato crop harvest have lots of kids working.


Potatoes are primarily harvested by machine

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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

I bet inmates would love to pick crops in the fields. Ya might as well round up the government mooching illegals and throw them in the fields as well ( and make them earn their own money to get their ass back to their county after harvest)


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## NJGC (Apr 5, 2014)

kirkdc said:


> I bet inmates would love to pick crops in the fields.


It would be great but don't think it would happen. The prisoners union would demand higher wages and better conditions. Lol

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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

NJGC said:


> It would be great but don't think it would happen. The prisoners union would demand higher wages and better conditions. Lol
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


And if we learned anything from this thread, it's that those union members should be held in the same regard as the men who stormed the beaches of Normandy


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## NJGC (Apr 5, 2014)

EricBrancard said:


> And if we learned anything from this thread, it's that those union members should be held in the same regard as the men who stormed the beaches of Normandy


Lmfao  I'm dying!

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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

NJGC said:


> You get happy ending?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Actually, yes, I had a spring in my step, walked around like I hadn't in years. Dude knew what he was doing


......Oooooh, that kind of happy? I don't know, that might be happy for a moment, but the walk of shame would surpass the happy part.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> And if we learned anything from this thread, it's that those union members should be held in the same regard as the men who stormed the beaches of Normandy


What the hell is wrong with you - just ignant? My old man spent 6 years in Europe during WWII. He worked union all his life.

fkn ignorance is strong in you. Might hold yourself to the same high standard and see what spits out that alligator mouth of yours.

Just too young and too stupid to know up from down.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

One has to ask what did the unions do to the automobile industry? The public employee unions in California are bankrupting the state, plenty of evidence to support that allegation. 

As for crops we never should have dropped the bracero program, it worked well for the farmers and also for the workers, just update it so they don't get screwed.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

NJGC said:


> Potatoes are primarily harvested by machine
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Potatoes don't sort themselves, and trucks don't drive themselves. Whether a farm uses pickers or not depends on the farm.

Just in case you think it's BS:

http://www.capitalpress.com/Idaho/2...provides-crucial-labor-for-idaho-spud-farmers

https://newengland.com/today/living/new-england-history/potato-recess/


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

SmallTownGuy said:


> What the hell is wrong with you - just ignant? My old man spent 6 years in Europe during WWII. He worked union all his life.
> 
> fkn ignorance is strong in you. Might hold yourself to the same high standard and see what spits out that alligator mouth of yours.
> 
> Just too young and too stupid to know up from down.


I'm guessing you didn't read the entire thread or you did and you're too dumb to understand that reply. Either way, I've had enough of your nonsense lately. Whatever your problem is with me, I don't really care. F**k off.


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

Deck builders forum......


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

I wish John Steinbeck posted here.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

"Spuds of Wrath" would have been a hit, but I'm guessing he liked the vino...


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

SmallTownGuy said:


> What the hell is wrong with you - just ignant? My old man spent 6 years in Europe during WWII. He worked union all his life.
> 
> fkn ignorance is strong in you. Might hold yourself to the same high standard and see what spits out that alligator mouth of yours.
> 
> Just too young and too stupid to know up from down.


What??????


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

hdavis said:


> "Spuds of Wrath" would have been a hit, but I'm guessing he liked the vino...


I liked "Of Immigrants and Men"


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> Kids don't even go outside to play these days, they'd rather play video games and internet games.


Says the adult online in front of his screen... :whistling :laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

KAP said:


> Says the adult online in front of his screen... :whistling :laughing:


I'll be outside working after midnight tonight - I don't see kids then, either....


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> I'll be outside working after midnight tonight - I don't see kids then, either....


That's because you're looking at your screen... :whistling


Ooops... it's midnight... there goes another one looking for some Coca-Cola... :laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

KAP said:


> That's because you're looking at your screen... :whistling:


No, it's a schedule - livestock every 8 hours or more frequent. Usually it's closer to 6 hours, except during the day when we're gone...


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## dcustar (Sep 14, 2017)

SmallTownGuy said:


> *Wait a minute - are you two claiming that the home buyer must be schooled to appreciate "better" tile work before being allowed to buy a home?*


I am not. I do believe most home buyers do not have personal experience and/or have not been exposed to enough quality work to appreciate the difference between that and sub-par work.



SmallTownGuy said:


> Nothing has changed in the trades since time began. The average whatever - tile, drywall, framing, trim, flooring, siding - concrete - ALL OF IT - is crap.


No disagreement there.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

dcustar said:


> I am not. I do believe most home buyers do not have personal experience and/or have not been exposed to enough quality work to appreciate the difference between that and sub-par work.


"have not been exposed enough....to appreciate....".

That's what you said.
So what does that mean?

Does that mean they need to go to school?
Does that mean they were raised wrong?
Does that mean they need to attend "Home Buyer" classes?

I'm just trying to get some understanding of what you think would be an improvement.

=====================

The customer* is*.

Each and every buyer of any product in every category - whether its a home or a set of golf clubs or a loaf of fkn white bread - is looking for the best value - the most product for the least buck.

That is the very definition of American Consumerism.

Note what I said: I said "product'. I did not say "quality".
If that's what the customer is willing to settle for, then that's it.

Doesn't matter what they know.

Personally, I am grateful for all the crap out there. It has always allowed me to differentiate myself in the market.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

I do not feel any pressure from illegal workers. Oposite. Price of sheetrockers, roofers, siders go down so owners have more money to pay carpenters. Carpenters need to know math and illegals do not know it. I'm extremely busy, busiest ever (always wonder if that have to do with my fighting in court for right thing and God award me). With my old customer today GC I agree that he hire mexicans to do some crown at 4 dormers at house he did painting. Turn out they wasn't capable do it. I'm untachable by illegals so I do not care. Show me one ever that can frame stupid stairs, nothing more.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

KHContractor said:


> Our company will pay great and still can't find Americans that want to work in the construction industry. When we do find some they have drug problems or are lazy AF! The mexicans we know do great work.


Who f normal will go in construction if can go in school for computers, medicine etc. I didn't see american who send his child directly, without truing something else, to be framer, roofer etc. Electrican and plumber is another story.


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## scott67 (Aug 16, 2017)

*Low standards*

Yes, also as they are low paid and flip the company all the time is lower standards, the people who are using these people believe they are getting a good deal, may be cheaper but aint got the peace of mind in the event of problems.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

hdavis said:


> Kids don't even go outside to play these days, they'd rather play video games and internet games.


There is a strict no electronics rule in my house and 45 minutes of tv per day. My kids hit the shop with me. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I am still trying to find a good guy to help rebuild machinery, so far my 12 year old is the best I have found. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## dcustar (Sep 14, 2017)

SmallTownGuy said:


> "have not been exposed enough....to appreciate....".
> 
> That's what you said.
> So what does that mean?
> ...


I am not arguing there _needs_ to be an improvement in the customers. I am observing that fewer and fewer people have personal experience in doing work in the trades so lack personal experience in how the jobs should be done properly. I guess if there is a point of disagreement between our posts it would be that there seem to be fewer examples of quality work upon which they could base a comparison.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I am still trying to find a good guy to help rebuild machinery, so far my 12 year old is the best I have found.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I think it's an unusual skill set.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

dcustar said:


> I am not arguing there _needs_ to be an improvement in the customers. I am observing that fewer and fewer people have personal experience in doing work in the trades so lack personal experience in how the jobs should be done properly. I guess* if there is a point of disagreement between our posts it would be that there seem to be fewer examples of quality work upon which they could base a comparison*.


Au contrare. I personally have several thousand examples of quality built homes. All sold.

People do know quality when they see it.

Apple brand phones are far more expensive than their competitors. Yet they sell sh!tloads. The people buying them are the same ones you claim cannot make an informed decision because they lack personal experience.

Average is just - well average. It has always existed.

You want exceptional people? Be an exceptional employer and treat those people exceptionally.

You want exceptional customers? Deliver an exceptional product with your exceptional employees and deliver an exceptional experience.

I absolutely love mediocrity. Because I can point to it and say "we are not THAT".


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I am still trying to find a good guy to help rebuild machinery, so far my 12 year old is the best I have found.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I'm answering phones for my friends while he's on a cruise with family.

He charges 200/hr to repair big mills. lathes, etc. He could work 24/7/365. He's 64 and officially retired.

Guys are buying 1-2-5 million dollar new machines because they cannot find the people to do repairs/upgrades - in or out of house.

Last week, a company put him on a chartered plane, flew him to Kentucky to look at a CNS table mill - used. It's a big one - 8 ft travel on the bed. Just to pull a number out of my arse - that class machine weighs north of 100,000 pounds.

He thumb-nailed figured that the cost to update JUST THE CNC to modern specs would outweigh the diff in buying a new mill.

You can double, triple, or even 10X the wages - the warm bodies with the skills to do the work just ain't there.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

SmallTownGuy said:


> I'm answering phones for my friends while he's on a cruise with family.
> 
> He charges 200/hr to repair big mills. lathes, etc. He could work 24/7/365. He's 64 and officially retired.
> 
> ...


I just want someone that can take something apart without breaking anything. Lol

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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I just want someone that can take something apart without breaking anything. Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Hire a weakling, they don't bust stuff up as bad.


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## dcustar (Sep 14, 2017)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Au contrare. I personally have several thousand examples of quality built homes.


One last stab. You see a lot more work done on homes than the overwhelming majority of the general population. Do you see more mediocrity or more quality builds?


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## B.Johnson (Sep 17, 2016)

hdavis said:


> I'm claiming there are plenty of builders that don't worry too much about build quality. I'm guessing about half are below average.:whistling


If that's true, then that means that about half are above average.

I honestly don't see that much quality around here. There are days when we are following other trades that it is difficult to even give a sh** about quality, however we manage to keep working through it. Needless to say we have a good reputation, and are very busy.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

SmallTownGuy said:


> I'm answering phones for my friends while he's on a cruise with family.
> 
> He charges 200/hr to repair big mills. lathes, etc. He could work 24/7/365. He's 64 and officially retired.
> 
> ...


This is true. My current customer at that floor leveling house that you laugh at me for strips he finish like 2 years community college electronic. He made 150$/hours fixing ultrasound and rentgens. Did it for decades, he is retired now. He said he know guys that have over 5m at account from doing same thing. Electric/electronic is gold mine for capable people. In my book electric/electronic is best school to go in. No matter where at scale you finish electrician, electronic maintenance, engineer, you will have good life.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

dcustar said:


> One last stab. You see a lot more work done on homes than the overwhelming majority of the general population. Do you see more mediocrity or more quality builds?


When every home in the sub division looks like ass? What's a potential home buyer have to choose from? 

If you live in an area where homes are built by cheap jack leg labor? 

Your gonna end up with a home built by cheap jack leg labor! 

If a home buyer just looked at 5 homes and they all looked like chit! I guess that home buyer figures everybody builds homes like this!! :whistling


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

tipitop said:


> This is true. My current customer at that floor leveling house that you laugh at me for strips he finish like 2 years community college electronic. He made 150$/hours fixing ultrasound and rentgens. Did it for decades, he is retired now. He said he know guys that have over 5m at account from doing same thing. Electric/electronic is gold mine for capable people. In my book electric/electronic is best school to go in. No matter where at scale you finish electrician, electronic maintenance, engineer, you will have good life.


Yeah, that's got nothing in common with my friend.

Like I said, he works on big mills and lathes. Bull work. Probably 80% of the work is ripping apart machines that weigh a 1/4 million pounds, replacing burned out electro-clutches, busted gears, epoxying & re-scraping worn ways and tooling quills. Troubleshooting hydraulic controls and tooling positioners.

and its filthy-assed work.

The only dirtier work "possibly" is burning apart old steel.
Or working in a foundry.

I know a fella that worked on MRI machines for the manufacturer. He makes good money & bennies, but it was per-scale. That's a very well developed system. probably less than 5,000 in the states doing that work.

Not exactly a career option for most folks.


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