# Level of difficulty of exterior door installs



## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

I want my husband to train our guys on them, so they won't interrupt our regular scheduled kitch or bath remod (that and he complains too much about them and I don't want to hear it! :laughing:. He wants to just stop doing them all together and says they are a PITA to do and to difficult to train on. So what do you guys think? Do you think they are a PITA too and too difficult to train average guys with not much experience? I hate to turn away work.


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

Personally,

I have only 2 workers that I would trust on any exterior door installations. Myself and my foreman. I would not let any of my other workers go near that. 

You have:

The removal of the old door - that you want done as 'seamlessly' as possible. The average worker with minimal training doesn't seem to be aware of what 'seamlessly' means. They end up damaging more than has to be removed and causing more expenses and more work.

There are a lot of factors to a proper installation of an exterior door, whether they be a single, double, single w/2 sidelights or double w/2 sidelights, etc...and these doors can be HEAVY and difficult to maneuver without damaging them.
I would never expect a worker with minimal experience to comprehend all the factors of an exterior door installation: The door's proper fitment, squaring, alignment, proper hardware installation and it's alignment, plumming, leveling, etc. I have found that there are too many factors that have to be watched and checked and doubled checked for an inexperienced worker to remember. 

Once the new door is installed with the insulation added around the jams (If the average worker even remembers that)....
Then there is tying in the new door to it's surrounding with flashing, caulking, and trim work inside and outside. The key is to make it look like it was there when the house was built. Not too many workers can pull that 'seamless' look off, and make it look like a true professional installation.

Last, I could virtually guaranty that the minimally experienced worker will do something that is 'off', or does not align properly, or just plain doesn't seem to look right. The possibilities of error are just too high. Then, the guy that should have installed it has to go back and spend a day taking it out and re-doing it. 

I have seen this happen over and over again from fellow contractors in the field who have sent their 'average' workers out to do the install. Most exterior door installations require 'craftsmanship' in the installation process. That....only comes from experience.

My Thoughts :

Have the right guy do it the first time and make your profit..... so you don't have to go out the second time to fix it, and lose that profit.

- my 2 cents -


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## Downeast (Apr 17, 2006)

Should be able to train people fairly easily for replacing doors of the same fit. Getting into making openings larger takes a bit more talent,due to the framing,and whats on the house for siding, as well as dealing with the inside. You need people familiar with remodeling ,framing,siding . Not a job for a rookie. As far as teaching someone to take out a 3'0"/6'8" plumb,level ,reveil, trim,put another in its place should be doable for a person that is eagar to learn.

Where are you drafting your labor from ? At least some guys with framing experiance should be able to get that job done, on a same fit,less they didn't get that far .


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Melissa said:


> Do you think they are a PITA too and too difficult to train average guys with not much experience?


I agree with 'hub-bub' on this one, - - exterior doors are way too critical for the 'average' guys, - - and too many different situations.

The 'sure money' is in making progress at the job he's already embedded in . . .


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

I have seen experienced framers do lousy jobs (install improperly and walk away) on new exterior doors and new windows. I have seen experienced people install exterior doors, only to find that the locksets don't line up, and then butcher the holes and pass thrus to try and make it match up. I have seen doors that look great but don't close so the seal is complete, thresholds not secure or unsupported.....and much more...

We are not talking about installing new doors in new openings. We are talking about installing new doors in old openings. Sometimes these openings are neither plum, nore square. Sometimes these openings are damaged or rotted. Sometimes the trim around these openings are of a material no longer easily found and need to be milled and duplicated onsite. Sometimes the interior floor edge doesn't match up at all to the new door and needs to be adjusted or a new threshold trim must be fabricated - onsite. I could go on and on. As I stated, it is not a job for a rookie worker, neither is it a job for a worker who has been shown how to put in 'a door' several times. It is a job for a craftsman.


Yes you can train a person. But that person would need to have a high level of carpentry skills to do it properly and for it to look professionally installed with NO callback.

Been there, seen it, done it, etc......


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

AtlanticWBConst said:


> It is a job for a craftsman



Couldn't agree more . . . :thumbsup:


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

I would assume you are talking slabs not prehung?

If I am having and expensive door installed I call our door guy. He comes out , removes the old, hangs the new, bores em out, installs new hinges and weatherstrips for $125.00.
Just had one done last week and felt it is not worth risking damage to the door with a slip up from of one of my guys.

Might try calling a door company to see who does their installs??


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## River Rat Dad (Feb 18, 2006)

Just a thought....None of lads were born with the skills you have. At some point someone took the time to teach you...:thumbsup:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

If the guys working for you now are just so useless that all they do is act as helpers then it would take a lot of time and a lot of exterior doors to train them to be proficient at it.

But if your guys now are doing finishing work and are competent and careful in the work they do now then there is no reason they can't be trained on exterior doors. I feel trainable is trainable, the problem is'nt what you are training them to do, it is if they are trainable, meaning do they have the right skills and mindset going into it. We aren't building the space shuttle ya know? :laughing: 

Best scenario would be to have 2 of them trained on them, 2 guys on exterior doors would be ideal because of the sizes and weights involved.


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

copusbuilder said:


> I would assume you are talking slabs not prehung?
> 
> If I am having and expensive door installed I call our door guy. He comes out , removes the old, hangs the new, bores em out, installs new hinges and weatherstrips for $125.00.
> Just had one done last week and felt it is not worth risking damage to the door with a slip up from of one of my guys.
> ...



In New England, the majority of replacements are Steel or Fiberglass - due to the weather here (harsh winters). And these kinds of doors can cost from $150.00 up to $2500.00 and more for custom sizes and custom glass, brass etc.

Actually - We have 2 guys trained on exterior doors. The forman and his assistant (Guy that rides with him).

BTW - This was the initial post:

Melissa wrote: "Do you think they are a PITA too and too difficult to train average guys with not much experience?"

That's the key point. Training people with the right abilities is one thing, but training rookies to do exterior door installations is asking for trouble.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

copusbuilder said:


> I would assume you are talking slabs not prehung?
> 
> If I am having and expensive door installed I call our door guy. He comes out , removes the old, hangs the new, bores em out, installs new hinges and weatherstrips for $125.00.
> Just had one done last week and felt it is not worth risking damage to the door with a slip up from of one of my guys.
> ...


I am the only one that will do slabs, and since we use only pre-hungs now, the opportunity to train anyone on a slab door isn't in the cards. I still own the lockset jig and hinge jigs, and I bet I haven't had them out of the shop in 4 years or more. 

Pre hungs have really taken the market...who would deal with a slab if they could help it anyway?

As for basic pre-hungs, my foremen are the only ones that install, since even though they are easy, I prefer it to be right the first time. As a guy gets more experience, then he would get to do more on installs, getting the experience.


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## bevs (Apr 29, 2006)

ATLANTICWBCONST knows what he is talking about. Sounds like he has been there many times. The only thing I can add is "there is no perfect install" on a exterior door. Some kind of problem always comes up. You can show a guy the basics, but he has to have some talent, and needs time......Lots of time.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

LOL, the answer is simply NO, like stated above repeatedly, an average grunt does not have the mental capacity nor the care to perform these installs. It takes history working on older structures and dealing with situations that pop up on every job, most importantly common sense which is beyond 80% of the average worker anyways. We average 225-275 entry doors a year for HD installations and I done keep track of my personal installs but theya re up there. Even with the grunt/s helping with this mass quantity and running into every scenario imaginable they are still clueless when I let them try one on their own....every once in awhile I have a "personal fun day" (typically a slow Friday) when I let the grunt/s try to show their stuff and I get to snicker to myself and show why I'm the guy signing the checks when they get fed up and ask for help. 

In all the thousands of doors I've installed over the years, aside from new construct, I can literally count on 2 hands how many doors were a fall out/fall in situation, every other one required what I call "artistic ability" to blend that baby back in like nothing ever happened. With the importance and job these things have to perform, it's not an area a avearge person can tackle the project and have it turn out like a professional with tools and knowledge/history. Think of all the typical hack jobs you've seen and that's what you can expect from an average worker.


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## theworx (Dec 20, 2005)

Thanx Atlantic, you just called me a craftsman :laughing:. Have installed so many I can't even count (no where near what Josh has completed though). Just an interesting thing to add: The neighbor had his exterior door replaced last week by a local window and door manufacturer. I heard saws going and got curious and walked over to talk to both the neighbor and the guy installing the door.

Got into a good conversation with the installer, he told me he made over $70,000 just installing doors for the company last year (and that's all he does). He said there aren't many guys with the skill or patience around for that kind of work. There is a reason he makes good money, you have to know what you are doing, have the knowledge to put a door into a less than perfect opening and have it work perfectly, and be able to have basically a flawless finish around on both the interior and exterior.


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## ron schenker (Dec 11, 2005)

Just curious..how much for labor to re and re a pre-hung front door,36" with single sidelite. Assume it went reasonably well, about 5 hrs. labor plus haul away the old door. Ballpark figure.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

ron schenker said:


> Just curious..how much for labor to re and re a pre-hung front door,36" with single sidelite. Assume it went reasonably well, about 5 hrs. labor plus haul away the old door. Ballpark figure.


A "loaded" ? since all our regions vary so darn much for labor per aspect of construction. Did you have to cut back siding, change sill base, rip fillers, was filler going to finish grade and paint/stain ready after you walk away or was it capped, was it a R&R interior casing or did you have to install all new, did you have to install floor moulding to cover transition between existing floor and new threshold? 

Ball park a job like that if it went "typical" and no exotic work needed around here would be a $550-600 job plus any materials needed be it jamb extensions, new sill, filler wood, aluminum for capping, interior casing, floor moulding, permit fee based on job cost, typically I flat rate landfill fee at $50 no matter if I have 1 storm door or 6 doors at the same address. I try to strive for a 4hr window from the time we pull up until we go onto the next job no matter what modifications are needed to the opening/door for installation this way we can cram 2 door jobs a day in.....this is for a standard prehung exterior door plus new storm door. If we have 2 of these at one address I like to cut it down to a 6 hr window total since we're already set up and start pulling both doors at the same time, but I'm the one that dictates and usually does the final finish work so it takes a bit more time as I dont trust the grunts for final assembly so to speak.

Best thing to ever hit the market for installing exterior doors is the trim screws. This way you can get better hoilding power than a standard 16 casing nail, but have the ability to back it out for fine tuning. 

Anybody else notice the trend for taller thresolds for "more adjustiment" but at the same time the old standard 81.5" unit height is now starting to be anywhere from 81.75"-82.5":furious: really throws a wrnech into the mix when working on older "settled" homes since even switching to a 3/4" sill it still does not leave much room for adjustiment.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

AtlanticWBConst said:


> BTW - This was the initial post:
> 
> Melissa wrote: "Do you think they are a PITA too and too difficult to train average guys with not much experience?"



Thanks for the help in moderating the boards 

I saw a professional sub as an alternative to trying to train some lemonheadarty:


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## Peladu (Jan 8, 2006)

For some reason in my area, houses that were built in the mid 70’s give me the most trouble when installing a new exterior door. There is a townhouse complex that they custom built the door and light to whatever the opening was. Which lead me to cut anywhere from 1 to 3 inches out of the header to get the door to fit. Three doors, same complex, and all three different size RO’s. But all three still a PITA.
Of all of the exterior doors I installed, I only had one that just popped in and I was done in record time, it so happened to be on my own house, go figure. I could type ten pages on mistakes and errors I have seen contractors do with exterior doors, but I am not going to.


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## Scott Young (Dec 23, 2005)

ron schenker said:


> Just curious..how much for labor to re and re a pre-hung front door,36" with single sidelite. Assume it went reasonably well, about 5 hrs. labor plus haul away the old door. Ballpark figure.



Ron, for a door that i anticipate to take 5 hours with no hiccups i will charge one days labor. if it gets into resizing the framing or r/r a bunch of siding and int. trim then i price that accordingly. it also depends on the person and situation i am looking at. i have a set daily rate, but there are times when i can give a customer a break due their unique situation.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

Scott Young said:


> but there are times when i can give a customer a break due their unique situation.


Same here, most of the times I look at doors they end up in my brain as a "typical install", some are a few degree's harder and some are a few degree's easier but overall it even's itself out in the large picture. The jobs that turn out to be miracles where everything just falls together my mental stress is quite a bit less making me more forgiving on the total bill so I will actually deduct some money which makes them very happy and sticks us into their brain as "fair". But then you have the times when you thought you prepared for the worst and it got worse than that and you explain at that time and show the home owner what and why there will be additional charges, every time they can see what your talking about they are more than willing to pay the extra money to get it done right.

Had to install a entry/storm in a house that was built years ago with an aging foundation this morning (got rained out AGIAN shortly after finishing exterior portion) but as luck would have it the hinge side was plum, when plumbing the latch side the top of the door was sitting on exterior sheeting and the bottom was literally 1 3/4" out from the house sheeting Would an average knuckle head check and compensate or would they just go ahead and install it tight to sheeting and then scratch their head why door wont seal on weather stripping. Not to mention the added work of cutting a tapered shim for back side of brickmould and now the added fun of finishing off the interior side trim work so at first glance all appears normal....this is where the experience and craftsmanship come into play and these are the guys that run the jobs and have the most experience come in...not $7-10/hr grunt labor.

Peladu: must be a midwest thing where they just installed or built to fit whatever was in the clearance isle since we constantly run into this problem with windows and doors and rough openings being whatever was necessary for that window/door being installed. The majority of homes (50's-60's) all used basically the same sized windows/doors spread throughout, but like you said the 70-early 80's homes the windows, patio doors, entry doors must have been mis measures in the back of the warehouse the builder got a great deal on and built to fit:furious:


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## Scott Young (Dec 23, 2005)

josh, you nailed it.

i got a bunch of door work fixing installs that others did. most everytime, they put the brick mold up tight and then scratched their heads as to why the weather seal wasn't flush. There is a lot of different factors that cause doors to act the way they do. most of my door work is retrofitting new style doors in older homes.

ps, i hate metal clad doors:thumbsup:


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

Thanks for the feedback. My husband will be happy that you proved him right! :laughing: 

So, now I'm thinking of either hiring someone with experience for doors or find a sub. Because I really do hate to turn down work. 



Mike Finley said:


> If the guys working for you now are just so useless that all they do is act as helpers then it would take a lot of time and a lot of exterior doors to train them to be proficient at it.


To give you an idea of our 2 helpers, and I can't say too much, because 1 is a best friend, last week when they were all installing one of these doors, hubby left to go get a piece of wood, and when he got back found them just sitting on their rears. When he asked them why, they said all the batteries were dead. And dumb and dumber (their new nicknames) didn't even have one on the charger, and didn't even bother finding something to do, like clean up! Then, had one of them cut the wood and cut it crooked! They both almost got fired. 

For exterior doors, we usually charge $275 and patio doors/french doors we charge $475 and make 10% on the material for both.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Melissa said:


> Thanks for the feedback. My husband will be happy that you proved him right! :laughing:
> 
> So, now I'm thinking of either hiring someone with experience for doors or find a sub. Because I really do hate to turn down work.
> 
> ...


Who says good help is hard to find. lol. 

I think if I were your hubby, I'd have given them my Doctor Money and Dr. Scholls story.

"When I was starting out, I was allowed to take a break when the boss said, "take a break." The boss going to get materials didn't count as him telling us to take a break. I was told under no certain terms he was gonna introduce me to Dr. Scholls comfort inserts and his Podiatrist, Dr. Money, if I ever decided to take a break without his consent. It seems Dr. Money gave discounts for removing the boss's foot and retrieving his shoe and comfort insert from helper's asses."


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

peladu your cutting headers 3" ???. always measure existing door height and have the mill shop match it. wow


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

go dart said:


> peladu your cutting headers 3" ???. always measure existing door height and have the mill shop match it. wow



I wont start in with a "high horse" lecture, but removing that much is definately screwing up the load capacity of that header, I've had to chisel out upto 3/4" before but most headers are deisgned with a over build/safety margin so taking a little bit out does not bother me a bit pending roof design, wall design, 2nd stories, etc...but most 36" doors here used a 2x6 and the good ones use a 2x8 so in both cases literally removing 3" is taking away alot of integrity.


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

What technique do you folks normally use for measuring for new, new construction doors and windows, in old houses? Do you just measure and assume frame thicknesses and assume it is sitting in a proper sized opening? Or do you remove casing? Also how do you handle replacing the older massive wood sills with the newer aluminum sills in situations such as a balloon framed house?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Melissa said:


> To give you an idea of our 2 helpers, and I can't say too much, because 1 is a best friend, last week when they were all installing one of these doors, hubby left to go get a piece of wood, and when he got back found them just sitting on their rears. When he asked them why, they said all the batteries were dead. And dumb and dumber (their new nicknames) didn't even have one on the charger, and didn't even bother finding something to do, like clean up! Then, had one of them cut the wood and cut it crooked! They both almost got fired.


DOH! :blink:


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

Melissa said:


> To give you an idea of our 2 helpers, and I can't say too much, ....., and when he got back found them just sitting on their rears. When he asked them why, they said all the batteries were dead. And dumb and dumber (their new nicknames) didn't even have one on the charger, and didn't even bother finding something to do, like clean up! Then, had one of them cut the wood and cut it crooked! They both almost got fired.


Sounds like they are ready to get an old station wagon and start working on their own in the 'handyman' business.

----- J/K:jester: 

:laughing:


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