# New to laying stone <NEED HELP>



## valtman (Dec 1, 2009)

I am a Contractor who has never laid a bit of stone. Generally, pretty smart when it comes to new projects. I have a customer who trusts noone else in their home to do work. They have a fireplace that is to be covered with Stoneworks Autumn and Buckeye fieldstone. I understand the wood sheeting exterior, tar paper, and lathe. My question is... without having experience in properly mixing mortars, is their a ready mix for the scratch coat and installation mortar that I can use to prevent the possibility of wrongly mixing these two?


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

valtman said:


> I am a Contractor who has never laid a bit of stone. Generally, pretty smart when it comes to new projects. I have a customer who trusts noone else in their home to do work. They have a fireplace that is to be covered with Stoneworks Autumn and Buckeye fieldstone. I understand the wood sheeting exterior, tar paper, and lathe. My question is... without having experience in properly mixing mortars, is their a ready mix for the scratch coat and installation mortar that I can use to prevent the possibility of wrongly mixing these two?


Get a qualified mason to do the work, or tell the HO, which I would imagine is you, that you will not touch it and need to hire a qualified mason.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

"please complete your profile, and continue to the intro page and tell us a little about yourself and your professional experience, thankyou and welcome to ct", gmod


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## valtman (Dec 1, 2009)

No Mr. 6 string, I am not the home owner. This customer is one of those Bread and Butter customers that you definitely want to take care of. I understand the point of view regarding a "Qualified Mason". Maybe I should have elaborated on the project. It is a Fireplace with about 12' of corner stones and maybe 50 sq ft' of field stone. Knowing the time of year and economy in the state that is still in, contractors would like to get every job they have a chance to get. After calling quite a few masons in the area, nobody is really interested in a project this small. Plus I would have to BABYSIT the contractor to make the Customer happy. That means that I am not making money on a job that I need to be on in order to get the task completed. Therefore, with it being so small, I figure the best way to please them, and close the bid (without the overhead of a sub-contractor, leaving hardly any for profit margin) I would try to do it myself. Now, after explaining a litle bit about the situation, do you have "any other ideas"


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## TulsaRemodeler (Nov 24, 2009)

valtman said:


> without having experience in properly mixing mortars


Wow! You get overwhelmed that easy? Do the "homeowner" a favor and dont touch it.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

Try the Search button at the top of the page --I'm no mason--but I love to read about that kind of work.

Start here-what is the purpose of a scratch coat if im using metal lath why do it? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum


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## valtman (Dec 1, 2009)

I thought these forums were for suggestions and help topics, not for typing useless jargon.No not overwhelmed, just have enough business smarts to research something before I go into a job blind, and end up losing money. I have read quite a few of the threads and have come up with probably 4-5 different mixture ratios: thus giving me a reason to inquire about premixed formulas.


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## owtm (Oct 31, 2009)

there are several premixed mortors call the local masonry supplies as a lines are different geographicaly......

if the customer is truly near and dear to you id still say call a pro


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## TulsaRemodeler (Nov 24, 2009)

owtm said:


> there are several premixed mortors call the local masonry supplies as a lines are different geographicaly......


And your trade is tile stone masonry? Pfft :no:. This is why I get pissed off on this site. Youre a hack or a wannabe. Masonry isnt even my trade...


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## valtman (Dec 1, 2009)

I can understand your point Tulsa, But do "you" have a proper mixture ratio for scratch coat mud and mortar? I haven't seen too many suggestions in your posts either! except maybe in the 81' Firebird or whatever topic, which fits very well in a Contractor Forum


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Valtman, please step back and take a look at what you're saying.

You have a customer that you want to take care of-that means to me that you are looking for future work from him/her. The ABSOLUTE BEST way to take care of them is to bring in someone who knows how to do it. 

If they trust you, they will trust your judgement.

If your intent is to score a larger job later, your time will be well spent "babysitting" the experienced mason.


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## TulsaRemodeler (Nov 24, 2009)

valtman said:


> I can understand your point Tulsa, But do "you" have a proper mixture ratio for scratch coat mud and mortar? I haven't seen too many suggestions in your posts either! except maybe in the 81' Firebird or whatever topic, which fits very well in a Contractor Forum


This is so easy, go with a higher cement ratio if in doubt. You happy now? Geeze man, think. Its not rocket science. Do a minute bit of research.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

valtman said:


> No Mr. 6 string, I am not the home owner. This customer is one of those Bread and Butter customers that you definitely want to take care of. I understand the point of view regarding a "Qualified Mason". Maybe I should have elaborated on the project. It is a Fireplace with about 12' of corner stones and maybe 50 sq ft' of field stone. Knowing the time of year and economy in the state that is still in, contractors would like to get every job they have a chance to get. After calling quite a few masons in the area, nobody is really interested in a project this small. Plus I would have to BABYSIT the contractor to make the Customer happy. That means that I am not making money on a job that I need to be on in order to get the task completed. Therefore, with it being so small, I figure the best way to please them, and close the bid (without the overhead of a sub-contractor, leaving hardly any for profit margin) I would try to do it myself. Now, after explaining a litle bit about the situation, do you have "any other ideas"


I find it hard to believe that noone wants this job, regardless of how small it is. If it were me I'd take it in a second. I could make $500 or $600 in a short day and be done with it. Put a post on craigslist. You'll have masons calling you all hours of the night trying to get this work.

Theres more to laying stone than just the mix ration. Knowing when and how to tool the joints is one of the most important things. If you mess that up, all is lost and you start over from scratch. And I can tell you from past experience that its not fun taking off fake stone and then have to put it back on.

Theres also the trying to keep them clean in the process of putting them on. I've seen people who thought it was easy trying to do it. They usually end up with more mortar on the face of the stone than behind it.

But if you insist on doing it yourself, for with a type N mortar, add some portland, and about 20 shovels of sand. Mix it to your desired consistency, and start the abomination. 

Please take and post pictures of during and after.


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## valtman (Dec 1, 2009)

RSELCTRIC- definitely understood. Those type of customers you do not want to upset, perform shotty work, or be dishonest to them. These have been LOYAL customers of mine for about 2 years. It is a 100 year old home. After new custom windows, two antique bathroom with all the vintage extras, Complete 3000 sqft of african maple floors ( a little bit of duraceramic thrown in) Custom beams w/ t & g wainscoting ceilings, wallpaper throughout, custom kitchen, two tiered deck, and a wine cellar, we have been trusted with everything that goes on in this house. I would definitely hate to lose this customer. Thats why i joined this site, to get answers from reliable sources. The Husband wants to get his Parlor complete by stoning his fireplace. He only wants me to do it or he will just pass. I guess the main question then is, is cultured stone that difficult to install that a Nitpicker contractor cant install 50 sq ft of it. BTW thanks for you imput RSELECTRIC.


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## valtman (Dec 1, 2009)

6String- See thats what im talking about, knowledgeable advise.:clap: Yes, having ample experience with tile, I know how important the clean work aspect is to these type of jobs. I will try the Craigs list thing. Definitely checking insurance, comp, and references, due to getting "wanna bes/ hacks" as Tulsa put it, in the past. Having someone doing a small job can cause a huge amount of damage to the customer relations department if you know what I mean.


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## TulsaRemodeler (Nov 24, 2009)

Dont listen to 6stringmason, if you get the mixture right, whatever your laying will set itself and and almost selfclean too. Masonry is easy and almost idiot proof.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

TulsaRemodeler said:


> Dont listen to 6stringmason, if you get the mixture right, whatever your laying will set itself and and almost selfclean too. Masonry is easy and almost idiot proof.


HA! :thumbup:


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## TulsaRemodeler (Nov 24, 2009)

6stringmason said:


> HA! :thumbup:


I had a mason friend once, you guys are overpaid sissies. He had bigass forearms but those were probably mostly fat.


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## valtman (Dec 1, 2009)

Thats one section in the DIY videos and brochures I forget to pay attention to, The self cleaning characteristics to Stone/Brick/Block. I'm gonna go back and watch that video now, thanks, Tulsa. I thought sissies were they guys who hide behind Pit Bulls. Are you jealous of a real tradesman's salary? I will pay a tradesman his self due compared to a handyman (sorry-remodeler) anyday.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

TulsaRemodeler said:


> I had a mason friend once, you guys are overpaid sissies. He had bigass forearms but those were probably mostly fat.


Judging by how you talk I can see why you only had a mason friend once. :whistling:laughing:


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## TulsaRemodeler (Nov 24, 2009)

6stringmason said:


> Judging by how you talk I can see why you only had a mason friend once. :whistling:laughing:


Would you beleive he used premixed mud from Home Depot?


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

TulsaRemodeler said:


> Would you beleive he used premixed mud from Home Depot?


I would believe it if he said he was going to be doing it himself for the first time.


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## valtman (Dec 1, 2009)

I thought LLC's were for handymen not willing to be FULLY liable (or responsible) for their work.


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## TulsaRemodeler (Nov 24, 2009)

valtman said:


> I thought LLC's were for handymen not willing to be FULLY liable (or responsible) for their work.


I'm an LLC because the masons told me to become one. Never, ever **** with the masons.


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## owtm (Oct 31, 2009)

tulsa want to explain why my post is a problem for you?


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## TulsaRemodeler (Nov 24, 2009)

owtm said:


> tulsa want to explain why my post is a problem for you?


I dont think youre a mason, but feel free to prove me wrong.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

Tell ya what. Get me a plane ticket, have the tools ready, and I'll come down there and do it for ya and fly back the same day on the redeye. I'll charge $500 and you can tell the HO I work for you.


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## valtman (Dec 1, 2009)

Since Masonry is pretty much idiot proof, im gonna go buy me some osb, tyvek, chicken wire, and liquid nails, and go do me some stone!!!:w00t:


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## owtm (Oct 31, 2009)

tulsa as a remodeler you think hes safe why sand and cement are cheap?static cause its a wall?do you know why sand is added to cement in what ratios and why?any idea why and when to add lime?masonry is easy why?

for the op its safer for him to get a quality bagged mortar thats reliably blended,consistant and the cost of which is negated by the small footage.just my opinion.

so why exactly should i want to prove you wrong?


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## TulsaRemodeler (Nov 24, 2009)

valtman said:


> Since Masonry is pretty much idiot proof, im gonna go buy me some osb, tyvek, chicken wire, and liquid nails, and go do me some stone!!!:w00t:


Thats the spirit!


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

"This is so easy, go with a higher cement ratio if in doubt."

That is an incorrect statement.


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

TulsaRemodeler said:


> Would you beleive he used premixed mud from Home Depot?


i think i worked with him on fire station in Broken Arrow.we called him Superstar.

anyway,i cant believe this is going on this long.a couple weeks ago i told a guy more or less the same thing six is saying to this guy,and got my head bit off.

if you have to come and ask about mortar,you dont know what you are doing.if this is a customer's house,i think you would want to do the best for them.and that would mean hiring someone who knows what they are doing.
several years ago i sold 2000 sq ft of stone to a carpenter,that was remodeling a ladies house.he told me he was going to lay it himself,and save her and him money.well he did.his joints are no less then 3-4 inches wide,and that is no bull.i could have sold him another 500 foot had he laid it right.the homeowner was never happy and called me to see what could be done about it.i told her short of ripping it all off and starting over,nothing could be done to make it look right.
my point is get someone who know what to do.make some money off them,and your customer will be happy,the mason will be happy for the job,and you will be happy because,your customer will more than likely call you back to do more work for them.mess this up(its a focal point in their house)and you will more than likely be done working for them.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

stacker said:


> i think i worked with him on fire station in Broken Arrow.we called him Superstar.
> 
> anyway,i cant believe this is going on this long.a couple weeks ago i told a guy more or less the same thing six is saying to this guy,and got my head bit off.
> 
> ...


The voice of reason speaks.


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## custom patios (Jan 2, 2008)

this has been very entertaining. thank you


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## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

If u buy the mortar also buy c-21- add it to the mud and do what it is u want to do


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## soopa (Nov 3, 2009)

Nice job contributing nothing of value to this thread Tulsa, way to troll!

OP, if you want to give it a whirl then take owtm's advice and find a good pre-mix. Worst case, you make a mess, lose a valuable customer, and embarass yourself. Best case, you succeed, learn something new, and everyone is happy. It's not our place to tell you how to gamble. 

This stuff isn't even close to rocket science, but it, like most things, requires some depth of knowledge. The best way to learn is on the job, why not find an experienced mason willing to come on the job and walk you through it? A pro is likely to teach you a few tried and true tricks, while on your own your most likely only going to learn some bad habits.

I wouldn't be trying to mark his rate up though. Do you really need the little bit of money this job might be worth? Instead of thinking you'd be losing money "babysitting" a mason you should be thinking you'd be gaining knowledge observing him. What's worth more to you?


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## valtman (Dec 1, 2009)

Thank you fellas for all the input, and yes Custom it has been very entertaining.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

It is not rocket science, but if you do not know how to do it the end result is not fixable. It is tear out and redo. There is no trim or paint to hide your ****ups, and there is a skill to determining the correct aesthetic placement of the stones as well as all of the mechanical techniques of base, mortar, and finishing, as well as enough skill to not even have to clean it when you are done, since you can't really.

It is not tile that you place in a grid and use a sponge float to grout, and probably 90% of the crap installs I consult on are done by tile guys or carpenters. Desk jockey homeowners usually do a better job at faux stone than most non-mason construction trades simply because they KNOW they don't know what the F they are doing and at least follow the directions.


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## soopa (Nov 3, 2009)

Can't argue with that, Ts.


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## TulsaRemodeler (Nov 24, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> "This is so easy, go with a higher cement ratio if in doubt."
> 
> That is an incorrect statement.


I'm not a mason by trade. I did make friends with a masonry company http://doublediamondmasonry.com/ after doing their tile work for a few months and got offered $18hr to start as a complete newbie. $24 in a few monthes, I thought about it but wasnt thrilled about working for someone else and my shoulder was screwed up. It was a great crew and it would have been a fun learning experience. I've done some stonework, I wont say I'm an expert but I know enough to know its a mans job.


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