# hole sizes



## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

I have to template a granite backsplash with (obviously) electrical boxes for the kitchen. I have templated the actual box, but is there a specific size you guys like to see to get those little tabs to clear through? Like a minimum? I need single and duplex box sizes. I guess I'm assuming they are all the same size relatively? I hope?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

What kind of boxes?
Plastic or metal?
New work or old work?


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

If the electrical boxes are plastic then cut them out to that size.

If they're metal boxes be sure that the device screw holes are visible after the cut.

If I were you I would install 2" 6/32 screws into the box now so you know your cutouts will make the required clearance.

This sort of things ticks me off big time when done incorrectly.

Good luck!


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

well, it's both really. It's a remodel and there's existing hard plastic ones, the dark brown kind, then they used some blue ones for the new wiring and they also have a metal box or two. I guess my hope that they'd be a std size was not to be. I templated to the corners of the box and am going to expand it slightly. I can't go too far or the dummy plates come out and make me look retarded.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

This is timely, since a countertop man visited a job I was on today to template for a laundry remodel Silestone backsplash. I've never seen the macnine they use in person until today. A sort of "robot arm" that they "beep" lots of points. Pretty cool. 

For plastic wall boxes, with the screw ears internal to the box, beep all four corners of the box. For metal wall boxes, with the screw ears external to the box, beep all four corners of the box, and most imortantly... the screw ears. No way to put the screws in or out without the screw accessible. I wouldn't worry about templating big enough to get the device unburied. I generally just bust up the device and rip it out by any means, since new backsplashes mean new devices anyhow. If you template big enough to get the device's ears out easily, the new device's ears will have no support behind them when they're installed on the new backsplash and will be a sloppy install.

In short, just template for the full box height and width, and the screws when necessary, and don't template big enough for the device ears. If I've screwed you up on terminology, I can post pictures.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

OK, so these are the templated sizes. I have 4 different ones. Two doubles and two singles.

single - 2"x2-13/16"
single - 2"x3-7/16"
double - 3-3/4"x3-1/2"
double - 3-3/4"x3"

All width by height, all ballpark. The template is close but not perfect. i'm just trying to get 'er square and be nice to the electrician


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

The mounting screws on a device (switch/receptical) are 3 3/16" apart.

Devices in a 2 gang box are 2 3/4" apart.

Single gang cover plates will cover MAX 3x4 1/2"

Two gang plates will cover MAX 4 1/2" square.

I don't know what the 2 13/16' hole would be for???

I would go wider than 2". The kitchen GCFI outlets are FAT.The plate will cover a 2 1/2" hole easily.

I don't know why the 2 gang boxes would be different. Mud ring on one of them?


As long as your installers have a roto zip....no problem.:thumbsup:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

220/221 said:


> As long as your installers have a roto zip....no problem.:thumbsup:


I don't think so.....


framerman said:


> I have to template a *granite* backsplash with (obviously) electrical boxes for the kitchen.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

framerman said:


> i'm just trying to get 'er square and be nice to the electrician


Sounds like you're trying to do the right thing. Here's a few pictures I just took, which might contain some information valuable to you. 

This first picture is of the box extension sleeves that the electrician will use to make the backsplash installation code-compliant, since the boxes are back in so deep. They fit inside the box, so you need a net clear opening for single gang of at least 1.910" wide x 2.920" tall. For double-gang, you need at least 3.720" wide x 2.920" tall.









This second picture is of the typical plastic wall box and an old-school metal wall box. Note that on the metal wall box, you need to allow for the "ears" on each end, so that they are not buried. The plastic wal box is 2.300" wide by 3.670" tall. The metal box is 1.950" wide by 3.600" tall (to allow for the ears). 









This third picture is of taking a measurement of an actual receptacle. You'll note the measurement on the calipers is 3.600 just outboard of the screw heads. Go much bigger than this measurement, and the new receptacle's ears won't have anything to rest on. This is the most important measurement, in my opinion.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

damn shunk...thanks. that's perfect. I knew that they had to use those extensions for the granite. Those measurements are fantastic.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Be advised that some electricians will install "adjustable depth boxes" for new work when they know of or suspect thicker backsplashes. These require a cutout to the full outside dimensions of the box so that the "jackscrew" mechanism can work to jack the box out flush. In my opinion, unless somebody points this type of box out to you, it is beyond the scope of any template man's job to have to identify this type of box in the field. I don't happen to have one on the truck, or I'd take a picture of one for you.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> Be advised that some electricians will install "adjustable depth boxes" ....


Like this:










http://aifittings.com/whnew78.htm

Arlington's "One Box".


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Celtic said:


> Like this:


Yeah, that's one type that I didn't give a thought to. Got lots of those on the truck. I was thinking about the blue Carlon one's that have the jackscrew thing-a-ma-jig on the side.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> Yeah, that's one type that I didn't give a thought to. Got lots of those on the truck. I was thinking about the blue Carlon one's that have the jackscrew thing-a-ma-jig on the side.


This puppy:










Carlon B121ADJ


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Celtic said:


> This puppy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's the one I had in my head. That was pretty much the only game in town before the Smart Box/In Box. They're pretty salty too. I think they're around 5 or 6 bucks, wholesale, as I remember. It would be pretty hard for the casual observer, such as a countertop guy, to tell the difference between that blue adjustable box and a regular blue nail on box from the finished appearance. The only real difference is that little screw head in the bump on the left edge.


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

You can tweak the cutouts in granite with a rotozip. You need the right bit of course.


I thought the box extensions didn't come into play since the granite isn't combustible??? Wrong again?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

> You can tweak the cutouts in granite with a rotozip. You need the right bit of course.


In Zodiac you can, but real granite is a lost cause. Corian and Silestone is pretty much butter. 




> I thought the box extensions didn't come into play since the granite isn't combustible??? Wrong again?


Hmmm... that's sorta ringing a bell. Let me check quick. You may well be right, but I still use them anyhow.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Those adjustable boxes rule.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

220/221 said:


> I thought the box extensions didn't come into play since the granite isn't combustible??? Wrong again?


Here we go. You get up to 1/4" if the wall material doesn't burn, and must be flush if it does. 

_*314.20 In Wall or Ceiling. *In walls or ceilings with a
surface of concrete, tile, gypsum, plaster, or other noncombustible
material, boxes shall be installed so that the front
edge of the box will not be set back of the finished surface
more than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.).
In walls and ceilings constructed of wood or other combustible
surface material, boxes shall be flush with the finished
surface or project therefrom._

I'll confess that I go over the 1/4" every once in a while. If the factory device screws reach, then I don't use a box sleeve. If I have to switch them out for longer screws, that's my que to use a box sleeve.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

Ir sounds like hes describing the old Bakelite boxes from the late fifties/early sixties. 
'brown hard plastic"


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Iwouldliketocommentbutmyspacebargotorangejuie

That was meant to say, "I would like to comment but my space bar got orange juice spilled on it."

New keyboard now I am good to go!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

A W Smith said:


> Ir sounds like hes describing the old Bakelite boxes from the late fifties/early sixties.
> 'brown hard plastic"


50's 60's? :laughing: I still use those to this very day. They're called "Union Boxes". They're dimensionally pretty much like the blue zip boxes.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> 50's 60's? :laughing: I still use those to this very day. They're called "Union Boxes". They're dimensionally pretty much like the blue zip boxes.


are the union boxes Phenolic or Bakelite? Or is that the same thing? I seem to recall the bakelite boxes having slightly thicker wall size then phenolic hard union boxes shown here. 
http://www.tnb.com/contractor/docs/union.pdf


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

A W Smith said:


> are the union boxes Phenolic or Bakelite? Or is that the same thing? I seem to recall the bakelite boxes having slightly thicker wall size then phenolic hard union boxes shown here.
> http://www.tnb.com/contractor/docs/union.pdf


Beats me. Wouldn't know the difference if my life depended on it. Here's what I'm talking about:


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

This will explain my "dilemma" I guess. You can see it's a mishmash of outlet boxes. I guess I wanted to hear that all boxes, no matter what, we going to all get the same cutout size on the backsplash. 






























> you need a net clear opening for single gang of at least 1.910" wide x 2.920" tall. For double-gang, you need at least 3.720" wide x 2.920" tall.


I'm going to go with this unless someone says "OMG, no, wrong size. who did that abortion?" which is what I'm seeing. It's 3 different boxes right? Is this a normal thing to do on a remodel? They all appear to be new boxes, but really not positive since I'm not an electrician.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

Yup I found out that Bakelite and phenolic are the same thing
http://www.packagingtoday.com/introbakelite.htm
I haven't seen anyone use those boxes here in NJ since i was in junior high school. I don't do electrical but even gutting interiors i haven't found them.



mdshunk said:


> Beats me. Wouldn't know the difference if my life depended on it. Here's what I'm talking about:


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## A.W.Davis (Oct 17, 2006)

Magnettica said:


> Those adjustable boxes rule.


Thats all I use in my kitchen remodels!


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

A.W.Davis said:


> Thats all I use in my kitchen remodels!


The cost of those boxes is and always will the deciding factor if I use those boxes. I still work for someone so I never get to use them on any of my jobs. As previously mentioned, I use the white box sleeves and long 6/32 screws.


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## te12c02w (Jun 1, 2007)

Well, I'm sure glad to see someone addressing a problem that vexes most electrians now and then. Around here no one cuts granite. They all come from over 100 miles away. I have never had them hit the boxes perfectly and when the installers show up they say they are just the installers. No way to cut the opening any bigger. Such a shame. Spend all that money for a granite backsplash and have to cobble the electrical in. Those carlon adjustable boxes are great.
Too bad for the template maker. There is really no way to make one template for all the boxes we use. Different electrician, different box. Whatever he had on the truck or whatever the company is buying that month. Different boxes, different applications.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

framerman said:


> I'm going to go with this unless someone says "OMG, no, wrong size. who did that abortion?" which is what I'm seeing. It's 3 different boxes right? Is this a normal thing to do on a remodel? They all appear to be new boxes, but really not positive since I'm not an electrician.


Putting in the boxes of various sizes is simply a case of "Let's use what we got and get outta here".

If this a "showpiece" type of job, see if maybe the electrician will swap out the boxes for the "One-Box" style - YOU buy, he installs them....you both lose a little, but get a nice finished product when all is said and done.

As far as the measurements are concerned - I have NOT checked the numbers...so NO advice on that.


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

I remember Bakelite boxes. If you missed with your hammer you had to go get a new box :laughing:


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I remember Bakelite boxes. If you missed with your hammer you had to go get a new box :laughing:


If you miss with the hammer with the "soft" plastic boxes (like Carlon) this time of year, you will be replacing the box.

At 25 deg, it isn't so soft anymore..... :no:


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## walkerj (May 14, 2007)

We always calld them break-a-lots


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## Mark Twenhafel (Dec 23, 2006)

We still use bakelite's mostly. My boss likes them for their 2-hour fire rating. We use the Carlon Adjust-a-box in kitchens around backsplashes and cabinets, since that tends to change. And old-work plastic boxes on trim-out to replace what the drywallers smashed.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

walkerj said:


> We always calld them break-a-lots


Yup. I've used a lot of those and they did break pretty easy. I use a lot of blue plastic now cause they're cheap, but I still like the light colored fiber boxes better.


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