# Dang! Stupid HO!



## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Better jump a flight to Canada until the heat is off.....


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

I don't think he's liable. Not his saw.

So what then, what about the guy copying him, well that's like saying your suing the Apollo 13 astronauts for blasting off to the moon.
You were so inspired you sat on a keg of dynamite and lit a fuse because you wanted to go to the moon too.
He's OK, and so is the idiot who lent him the saw. HO's insurance will pay and that idiot will pay more for insurance.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

that's too loose an analogy silvertree.

its pretty simple


employee is hired and uses his own saw in the course of his emplyment
to match productivity his saw is modified to the same unsafe specification of his employers equipment
employee loans out said saw and a third party is injured
employee deflects blame by testifying that he disabled his saw on the instructions of his supervisor/employer the same way his supervisor/employer did to his own saw.
employer/supervisor is aware of the unsafe modification
I would call a lawyer for consultation or advice. The party has two years to sue. And just when you think its over at 21 months? it just begins.


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## sparehair (Nov 21, 2008)

I'm not a lawyer but i think there are a couple issues here.

Respondeat Superior is the concept that the supervising party is liable for the conduct of it's agents and employees. If I'm a cab company and my cabby runs somebody over they sue me not the employee. 

The injury to the ho happened off of your worksite, you were under no contract or duty to supervise or protect, the ho borrowed and would have been reasonably presumed to understand the risks of operating a hand saw.

Here is a case I found: A recent personal injury lawsuit in Connecticut sought to determine what duties a homeowner owes to a business invitee. A business invitee is someone invited on land or property for business reasons. In this case, the business invitee was invited to the land by the homeowner to assist in performing electrical work.
Here, the invitee Plaintiff fell through an opening in the third floor of an uninhabited home. The home was being renovated and while assisting in electrical renovations, the invitee fell through the hole, sustaining severe injuries due to hazardous conditions. The injured invitee brought a claim for negligence against the homeowner for the personal injuries sustained.
The district court found the plaintiff, business invitee, could not recover. In order to recover, the elements of a basic negligence claim must be proven, establishing a homeowner’s duty to warn or protect the invitee, a breach of that duty, and an injury that was caused by the breach. The district court said the invitee knew the home was being renovated and that possible dangers involved in reconstruction were present. The court specifically said “the failure to warn an invitee of something he already knows is without legal significance.” The court found for the homeowner.
The invitee appealed claiming that even though an open and obvious danger does not require a warning, the property owner still has a duty to inspect and maintain the premises to make sure they are reasonably safe for foreseeable activities that are likely to occur while the invitee is present.
Previous courts have decided time and time again in premises liability injury cases that a possessor of land has a duty to an invitee to reasonably inspect and maintain the premises in order to render them reasonably safe, and to also warn an invitee of dangers that the invitee could not reasonably be expected to discover. But the duty to warn is not necessary where the invitee has actual knowledge of such dangerous condition.
Thus, the appellate court reversed and remanded the lower court’s decision in part, finding that the district court did not properly ascertain whether the owner reasonably inspected and maintained the premises.
Although a final judgment has not been entered, if the court can find that the owner did not care for the property so as to prevent injurious circumstances to the invitee, the homeowner will likely be found liable to the electrical


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

easymoney said:


> One of my guys just called the shop in a panic. It seems that he lent his skill saw to a neighbor to use on a diy project. My guys Skill saw has the Guard pinned UP, in other words he disabled his blade guard (to be like mine) and now he says the neighbor cut into either his foot or his leg. I don't know how bad, but the guy drove himself to the hospital.
> 
> My buddy is going to the hospital to see him... How much trouble can my friend get into loaning a neighbor a modified power tool?
> 
> ...


If the HO was on his own property then he probably doesn't have a leg to stand on. 
(no pun intended) :laughing:
He could try to sue Skil. 
On my model 77s, I take the guard off completely and run an 8" blade.


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## sparehair (Nov 21, 2008)

although aw smith has a convincing argument. 

whatever you do don't talk to the injured without an attorney. "Like, hey I want to be a nice guy (to not get sued) and pay for your emergency room visit. See what a nice guy I am?"/implicitly assumes liability and puts the idea in the head of the injured.


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## master of none (Apr 27, 2009)

pinning your guard back is a bad habit. Your asking for someone to get hurt. Sure the the guy who cut himself is stupid.....but so it the guy that handed the saw in the first place.. The guy doesnt even own a saw... what would make someone think he even knew how to hold it... Hes lucky he didnt cut his hand too... I hope every thing is OK and your not at fault... But my advice to you is talk to a lawyer. good luck


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## Handymanservice (Mar 1, 2009)

*I owned an Auto Repair Shop once upon a time!*

My cousin, who is like a little sister to me, rented a car. My wife and she were driving and the car kept pulling to the right.

They came to the shop, I checked the air pressure, rt front 10lbs lower than left front. I called the company, explained what I found and put air in the tire. They didn't have another car for her until the next day.

Next day, she is on her way to get the new car, runs off the road, into telephone pole, rips the car in half and flips it 2 times for good measure.

She was 8 months pregnant, with her 5 year old son in the front seat. She broke her pelvic bone, her son, not a scratch and the baby inside, he is now 12, but has many obstacles to overcome from all the trauma.

It cost my insurance company $20,000 (and I lost my insurance) because *I put air in the tire*. 

The lawyers sued everyone they could think of! Yes, even me, her cousin!

TALK TO A LAWYER. FIX YOUR SAW GUARD. AND GOOD LUCK.

Let us know what happens..........


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

...blah blah blah...

...don't pin the gaurd...

...words words words...

...safety features...

blah blah blah...

...liability...

This could very easily been avoided if rule No. 1 was followed:

_*NEVER LOAN YOUR TOOLS!!!!!!!!!!*_


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## RizzoMaryland (Feb 12, 2007)

Was there a duty of care on the employees behalf? Yes

Was there a breach of this duty? Yes

Was an injury caused by this breach? Yes

Was there proximate cause? *NO* 

The general test of proximate cause is foreseeability.

Typical defense: *Contributory Negligence* and *Assumption of Risk*

Not a very strong case against your employee!


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

sparehair said:


> although aw smith has a convincing argument.
> 
> whatever you do don't talk to the injured without an attorney. "Like, hey I want to be a nice guy (to not get sued) and pay for your emergency room visit. See what a nice guy I am?"/implicitly assumes liability and puts the idea in the head of the injured.


 To go along with this statement, even saying " I'm sorry you got injured" assumes guilt.


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## NickTech (Feb 13, 2005)

his liability is limited, if he loaned it to him then the user actually assumes some liability for "using a peice of equipment with a disabled safety". unless he gave him a formal course on how to use this saw, or charged him a rental fee then he didnt know he was actually going to cut wood with it or use it for show and tell at his kids school (wink, wink). he could of been under the impression that he was going to clean it for him......this will be a test of his true friendship with him


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

To the OP. Check out the warning: your being watched thread.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

*Damage control*

you better contact your employee and tell him to STFU also. Might be a good investment to immediately buy your employee a brand new saw using a "trade in incentive" If he can recover the old saw from the homeowner.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

I'd fix my saw asap. I'd fire the employee NOW!


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Are you going to learn from this?


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## curapa (Oct 8, 2007)

Does anyone here remember McDonald's being sued for the coffee being too hot? Anybody can be sued for just about anything and stand a good chance of losing.

As for the pinning of the guard issue, I do that myself. I am the only one that uses my saw and I have been lucky not to ever hurt myself. I do not do much cutting on the sawhorses, most of my cuts are made cutting post tops off or cutting scallops or arches on fence boards that are already installed. The guard gets in my way and I am willing to take the risk to get the job done.

There is definitely a liability issue with pinning the guard but I am sure we all take what we consider to be "calculated risks" all of the time on the job.


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## BirmanBuilders (Aug 24, 2005)

My insurance guy warned me to never lend tools to anyone because I would be liable. I still have lent stuff, but always think twice. Sorry to hear about the accident, but if anyone comes calling deny deny deny! His homeowners should cover him anyway.


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## ClosetPro (Apr 29, 2009)

The guard was down & working properly when I loaned it to him, he must have altered it for his own reasons.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

How does one go about cutting himself with a saw? Arm,leg and fingers? I have no guards on my wormdrives and I never have come close to cutting a bodypart.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

K2 said:


> ........ Also, I'd like to see some stats on injuries due to the guard failing to return as expected... I know of two toes and two fingers lost to guard failure.


I know of one extension cord that got ripped up due to the guard not flipping back into place.


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## deckman22 (Oct 20, 2007)

*circular saw = most dangerous tool on job*

The worst accidents I've seen on jobsites were due to circular saws. Never loan one to anyone let alone a stupid HO. For that matter never loan out tools period.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

So was the HO really the stupid person here?

He may have been the party that pain was inflicted upon, but was he really the stupid one or was the the person that defeated the safety measures built into the tool the moron?


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

Celtic said:


> So was the HO really the stupid person here?


 
Uh, Yes! Always.


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## Darwin (Apr 7, 2009)

easymoney said:


> ... the Homeowner? I think my guy said 36 stitches on the right shin, *a notch* *in the bone*, and I'm sure a bruised ego. He was lucky , it could have been worse.


Is that a 'bird's mouth notch' ?:shutup:


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

I had a guy cut his hand pretty bad a few years ago. He got one of those TV lawyers, and the first thing this guy did was ask to inspect all my saws. I said bring it on, but nobody ever inspected them. In the accident he had his hand behind the saw,and it kicked back on him. He had been warned many times about the power and danger of those things.In the victims deposition he said that he was fast enough to get out of the way! 
I learned along time ago not to disable a guard. When you have been framing for 30 years you see and learn alot. 
I still have all my digits,too.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

For all the people who pin guards. Try this out sometime it might surprise you. Set the DEPTH of the saw according to the material to be cut.... Guess what??? On most modern saws the guard MAGICALLY gets out of the way!!!! But when you leave it at full depth and try to cut a 1/2" piece of ply its not going to work. 

Do I think that you can NEVER EVER pin a guard? No, but if you use your tools properly then you should only need to pin it for a few special situations here and there.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

I think stopping the blade after each cut would eliminate half the injuries whether the guard is up or down.. Not letting the saw bind would eliminate the other half .

Chainsaws don't have blade guards and are equally dangerous in the hands of beginners. I have the scars to prove it.


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## wyoming 1 (May 7, 2008)

Darwin said:


> Is that a 'bird's mouth notch' ?:shutup:


 
Almost a heel cut!


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

K2 said:


> I think stopping the blade after each cut would eliminate half the injuries whether the guard is up or down.. Not letting the saw bind would eliminate the other half .
> 
> *Chainsaws don't have blade guards and are equally dangerous *in the hands of beginners. I have the scars to prove it.


 
Agree!. 

Scenario: A tree cutter hang by rope around waist attached to tree trunk... during cutting big branch... causing kick backs... accidentally swerving chain saw & cutting his thighs!!... Ewww.... Halloween blood drippings... :shutup:


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## Atfulldraw (May 1, 2009)

ok 

I still think it is a three-way tie as to what was the dumber move ---

Pinning back the guard
Allowing your employees to do it
Posting both (or either) on the internet

Hope it works out for you this time.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

rbsremodeling said:


> Sounds like a bitter old man how many digits have you lost there Gramps?:laughing::laughing:


You starting to confuse Gus
with me? :laughing:



My philosophy is, if they don't
own it, they probably don't know
how to use it.
I only loan tools to my son.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

neolitic said:


> You starting to confuse Gus
> with me? :laughing:
> 
> 
> ...


I am pretty much the same way, I don't lone tools to anyone. 

I knew you had all your fingers I saw the picture from your hand model days.:thumbsup:


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

neolitic said:


> You starting to confuse Gus
> with me? :laughing:


He could do worse than that to sully your reputation. :thumbsup:

But wait a minute, what does that say about me?:whistling


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Gus Dering said:


> He could do worse than that to sully your reputation. :thumbsup:
> 
> But wait a minute, what does that say about me?:whistling


You would need a reputation for it to be sullied:whistling


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

A while back I was at a convenience store. Dude in front of me had a Joe smo home improvement jacket on. I noticed he was missing half of his four fingers on his right hand. His left hand had fresh bandages on three fingers, severed about one third down. I felt like saying "don't you think it's time to find something else to do while you can still wipe your ass". :laughing:
But I did'nt. And yes he was buying beer at 11:30 am. :laughing:


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

knucklehead said:


> I had a guy cut his hand pretty bad a few years ago. He got one of those TV lawyers, and the first thing this guy did was ask to inspect all my saws. I said bring it on, but nobody ever inspected them. In the accident he had his hand behind the saw,and it kicked back on him. He had been warned many times about the power and danger of those things.In the victims deposition he said that he was fast enough to get out of the way!
> I learned along time ago not to disable a guard. When you have been framing for 30 years you see and learn alot.
> I still have all my digits,too.


 29 years for me bro. Back in the early 80's, in Phoenix, everyone took the guards off the worm drives and put a 8 1/4" inch blade in. One time I had just made a cut bent over, using the top of my left foot as a fulcrum. Done with the cut I had the saw standing straight up and down holding it with my right hand. Noticed the cord was tangled up around my feet so I went to throw it out of the way. Left had stopped the blade as it was winding down. Eight stitches. Man we used to go a 120 mph back in those days. Put my guard back on the next day. Have'nt cut myself since. 

I will admit that if I have an 1/8" or so to trim off something I use a pencil to wedge the guard handle to the body.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Anyone remember Riley from the original This Old House show?

Seems like he always had his hands mangled up. I remember one show in particular when Vila was asking him why his hand was completely bandaged up. In that charming Boston accent he replied:

'Ya Baab...I had the gaaad off tha saaaa...'

Man were his hands banged up... Flattest thumbs I've ever seen... 

Watching vila 'attempt' to use a hammer was hysterical.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

rbsremodeling said:


> You would need a reputation for it to be sullied:whistling


Don't hate, relate :whistling

You have a sharp tongue. I secretly admire that


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Gus Dering said:


> Don't hate, relate :whistling
> 
> *You have a sharp tongue. I secretly admire that*


Thank you Master Jedi:blink: help


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