# who is responsible'?



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I have one cardinal rule, end of the day the job is cleaner than the beginning of the day.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> I have one cardinal rule, end of the day the job is cleaner than the beginning of the day.


Yep! And my customers love it.

Heck they sometimes start helping. I have to keep telling them that I made the mess. I love it when they are not home when I finish up and call saying that I should start a cleaning service and that their house looks cleaner than before we started.

I've been known to straighten up a garage or two. You know, hanging their rakes on the hooks and stuff like that.


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

What prevented you from sticking a 50gal trash can under your cutting area? You are starting to come off like a real prima donna.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

huggytree said:


> the difference is it takes 1 minute to cover a tub....which anyone would include in their bid..it takes 3 days to move their belongings or 3-4 hours to cover all their stuff in plastic (and then it would still get wet on the floor) i agree with your above comment, but it is not the same---the scope is as different as you can get i should have contacted the GC....i agree with that!


For the reasons you have mentioned you have built a stronger case against yourself. Why wouldn't you have handled this while you were looking at the job is beyond me. And why you would proceed assuming no one would care about water damage to their things is even further out there.

If you haven't noticed yet, we are in a business where covering your bases and protecting your self interests are equally or more important than showing up on time with a good product at a mutually fair price. To me this is a classic case of learning a lesson at point crisis. Handling this at point easy was stepped over at least twice. 

I hope you get this resolved without a major problem on Monday. I really do. Being humble and non defensive will go a long way in getting all parties involved to look for a solution that is mutually beneficial. 

Good luck to you.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Gus Dering said:


> For the reasons you have mentioned you have built a stronger case against yourself. Why wouldn't you have handled this while you were looking at the job is beyond me. And why you would proceed assuming no one would care about water damage to their things is even further out there.
> 
> If you haven't noticed yet, we are in a business where covering your bases and protecting your self interests are equally or more important than showing up on time with a good product at a mutually fair price. To me this is a classic case of learning a lesson at point crisis. Handling this at point easy was stepped over at least twice.
> 
> ...


If I were in your shoes the first words out of my mouth Monday morning would be "I apologise, my actions were inexcusable, I will resolve this"


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I don't know how it's on anyone but you.

You knew what you were getting into when you bid the job. I just don't get it. Did the GC say he was going to take care of it?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Gc sounds like a rookie. Definitely the GCs job in my opinion to prep the job or tell his subs that they will have to do it. I can tell you I have never trusted anyone I havent personally trained to move my clients possessions and prep a house for a remodel, unless the client elects to hire a professional mover on their own and move the stuff into storage. He should of photographed everything to know where to put it back before he had it moved. 

That being said, you ARE a professional contractor, you should never assume anything, even with people you have worked with before. If the GC is too much of a rookie to write out a scope for his subs, you need to detail what you will and will not do in your qoute.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

you cant put every detail of what you wont be doing....your contract would be 20 pages long.....for me preping a house has always been the GC's job....if it were MY job between me and the homeowner then it would be different......

here's my logic....no will pay me $116 per hour to put plastic down over a whole basement...no one........it should never be expected..........its common sense...doesnt need to be in a contract......ive never put it there.....and this has never been an issue before...

im not planning on apologizing.........im hoping to have this conversation with the GC monday morning and not the homeowner....im hoping to have very little conversation w/ the homeowner....

my plan is to only say i made a mistake by not canceling the job until the proper prep work was done......which i know would have been a major issue......the work pretty much had to be done that day due to the tight schedule imposed by the homeowner....

i dont remember if it was discussed at the time of the bid w/ the GC.....i think it was...its something so obvious i cant believe i didnt....but im not 100% sure.....i am 100% sure the GC will tell me we never had the conversation though....whether we did or not


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I don't know how it's on anyone but you.
> 
> You knew what you were getting into when you bid the job. I just don't get it. Did the GC say he was going to take care of it?


yes i knew what i was getting into....i either told the GC or assumed it would all be cleaned up.....i cant remember every bid ive ever been on...im 50/50 on if we had the discussion or not.....its an obvious thing....

why would the GC think i would spend 4 hours plastic wrapping the basement or spending $10,000 relocating their belongings???

to the GC's out there....do any of you pay $116 per hour for a plumber to plastic wrap a customer of yours belongings??? for 4 hours??? anyone of you pay $500 when you could pay a laborer $50 for the same job???....why is it my fault for assuming anything on this issue????

preping the house wasnt in my bid...i spell out what im going to do....not all the things others need to do or the things im not doing.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

huggytree said:


> yes i knew what i was getting into....i either told the GC or assumed it would all be cleaned up.....i cant remember every bid ive ever been on...im 50/50 on if we had the discussion or not.....its an obvious thing....
> 
> why would the GC think i would spend 4 hours plastic wrapping the basement or spending $10,000 relocating their belongings???
> 
> ...


Never in my life have I had a client complain that I was cleaning up after myself and they could have paid someone substantially less to clean.

I have a feeling your head may be far too inflated to pull it out of your own ass.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

As soon as you started the work, it became your responsibility. Prior to that, it was the responsibility of the GC. The same can be said for jobsite safety, security, etc. You made a decision to begin working despite the conditions not being acceptable. Therefore, you own the liability.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

Warren said:


> As soon as you started the work, it became your responsibility. Prior to that, it was the responsibility of the GC. The same can be said for jobsite safety, security, etc. You made a decision to begin working despite the conditions not being acceptable. Therefore, you own the liability.


 aaaaaa


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

here's my nice email to the builder this morning:


just wanted to ask you - who do you and the homeowner think is responsible for preping the house? 

ive never put down Ramboard and plastic ever.....preping a house is typically the job for the GC and he typically hires demo guys to do it.....typically i am not allowed to talk with the homeowner...some builders i work with put it in MY contract AND the Homeowners contract......if she is scolding me on monday im in a position where i cant defend myself.....id rather you scold me so i can speak.....id rather all communication be through you and not the homeowner..... 

we will be making some level of dust on monday...i cant drill through wood/concrete floors w/o dust....make sure she is aware!


response:
You know, you're right. I got sort of off balance by the demo crew being there, thinking things were going to be covered that weren't. . 

However, what would have been nice is if you had asked either me or the owner to move or cover the stuff in the corridor between the basement sections -- that's where most of her complaint was.
I overlooked it, yes, but I think you should have called me on it because you sorta knew what was going to happen.

I will tell her not to scold you, but me.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

During my first week working in communications when I was 18 years old I had to run wires through an attic. The access hatch was in the walk-in closet. I tracked a bunch of dirt and insulation from the attic into the WIC and got dirt on the client's clothes. 

I had a drop cloth below the ladder but it didn't catch everything. At the end of the day I swept up the area and brushed most of the crud off of the client's clothes and called it a day. 

The following day the client called the company and scolded my boss about making a mess of his clothes and not properly protecting it. My boss chewed me out and I said why didn't the client move his stuff where he knew I was going to be working.

My boss made it very clear that in his company every job is to be left more clean at the end of the day then it was at the beginning. No one else is responsible for your own mess but you.

That lesson stuck with me. Me fvckie me fixie.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

Why did you not call the gc when you got there if things where in the way ..If you needed stuff moved or protected you should not have started the job you started the job made a mess it is on you


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Roofer bids roof tear off and replacement. Rips the roof off and leaves it all in piles around the house. Ho calls roofer and says wtf why didnt you dispose of the old roof. Roofer tells home owner that he couldnt remember if they discussed disposal or not and so he decided that rather than stop for three minutes before destroyin hundreds of dollars of landscaping and make a phone call that he cant be bothered because he wants to make BIG MONEY RIGHT NOW. He even got the roof off by lunch.

So was the roofer stupid or lazy?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Metro M & L said:


> Roofer bids roof tear off and replacement. Rips the roof off and leaves it all in piles around the house. Ho calls roofer and says wtf why didnt you dispose of the old roof. Roofer tells home owner that he couldnt remember if they discussed disposal or not and so he decided that rather than stop for three minutes before destroyin hundreds of dollars of landscaping and make a phone call that he cant be bothered because he wants to make BIG MONEY RIGHT NOW. He even got the roof off by lunch.
> 
> So was the roofer stupid or lazy?


Neither, it's the GC's fault because he didn't tarp the entire yard.


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

Sorry, but IMO it's on you and you'll be lucky not being back charged for damages. Jobsite isn't prepped for you? Pull off. Period.

Here's why cleanliness and respect for the HO's stuff is important - About 12 years ago I did a window replacement (sashes and jamb liners) for a client. They left a key, we went in, and did the job, including all painting, re-hang blinds/curtains, and furniture moving. Client calls me up that night raising hell - "Why I didn't you show up today". I tell her to go open a window, as the old ones were mostly painted shut. She was floored that I didn't leave any mess and her house was actually cleaner than she left it. She couldn't tell I was ever there. I've gotten so much referral work from her over the years it's unbelievable. I thought she was kind of a ***** at first, but now she's my best client. Calls me up, tells me what she wants done, goes on a trip somewhere (likes to travel), leaves a list and a blank (signed) check. A BLANK FVCKING CHECK!! I never cash it until they get home, but it's still a nice gesture.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

Metro M & L said:


> Roofer bids roof tear off and replacement. Rips the roof off and leaves it all in piles around the house. Ho calls roofer and says wtf why didnt you dispose of the old roof. Roofer tells home owner that he couldnt remember if they discussed disposal or not and so he decided that rather than stop for three minutes before destroyin hundreds of dollars of landscaping and make a phone call that he cant be bothered because he wants to make BIG MONEY RIGHT NOW. He even got the roof off by lunch.
> 
> So was the roofer stupid or lazy?




disposal of the old piping was by the builder....he got a dumpster for the whole job.....because it wasnt in my contract was i responsible for also getting the dumpster'????.....its a large job run by a GC.....its his job to handle the dumpster, put ram board down, protect the steps, move or protect the homeowners belongings.......

there's a difference between the homeowner hiring me direct vs hiring a GC who subs the job out....the GC is responsible for running the job

if the homeowner hired me direct i would have had an option for covering the belongings....0% chance the homeowner would have chose to pay me $500 to do it...they would have handled it....why? because they are basically the GC

only 1 person here has blamed the GC for not plastic wrapping the basement....yet the actual GC has now admitted an error

i have rarely seen roofers use tarps


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

What's the point of asking a question if you've already determined your answer?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

jamestrd said:


> I don't agree.
> 
> If we walk into your job you can best believe it will be taken care of,,prepped,protected and cared for..
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: You are a pro. 

If my above post implied I believe ALL subs are irresponsible, that wasnt my intent. But just like any profession, there are a few who dont think about a finished product or occupied home in the proper fashion. Personally, I dont take the chance. My crew preps before the subs arrive. They know what I want and how I want it performed. 

If I didn't have it prepped, you can believe I would give notice to the sub before it was time to do the work, and I would expect to pay for the prep. For me personally, it is more economical and gives me peace of mind for my guys to do the prep. 

Not to say the subs can just have a field day and do whatever they want to the clients property on my project :no:

I hire pros, and I treat them as such. I assume they expect me to be a pro as the builder. If my plumber is going to sauter in a finished cabinet on a remodel, the cabinet will be prepped before his arrival. And so on.


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

huggytree said:


> still dont think im to blame......builder is just horrible and doesnt care to prep a house
> 
> i said im sorry because when she shows you rust splatter on doors and rust splatter on her belongings you obviously have to apologize....i felt sorry for her...and we cleaned up our mess as best as possible......i still think its the builders fault
> 
> ...


I've agreed with Huggy thru most of this. Seems some on the board want him to assume the GC role when he's not. None of my subs clear basments or set dust barriers. My men do that in advance and the responsibility is mine. Possibly the water management should of been better.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

go dart said:


> I've agreed with Huggy thru most of this. Seems some on the board want him to assume the GC role when he's not. None of my subs clear basments or set dust barriers. My men do that in advance and the responsibility is mine. Possibly the water management should of been better.


I sure wish the GC's set the dust barriers when I come in to sand a floor. That's my responsibility.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

pinwheel said:


> I sure wish the GC's set the dust barriers when I come in to sand a floor. That's my responsibility.


I wish they would put drop sheets down for me and clean up after as well.

The only thing I can think is some people were raised in a household where they could make a mess and the maid would clean up after them. The rest of us got smacked with a wooden spoon if we didn't clean up our own mess.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

go dart said:


> I've agreed with Huggy thru most of this. Seems some on the board want him to assume the GC role when he's not. None of my subs clear basments or set dust barriers. My men do that in advance and the responsibility is mine. Possibly the water management should of been better.


I'm not sure what everyone else is saying. But regardless of what others did or didn't do, and whose responsibilty this or that was...My point is, you are responsible for your actions and any collateral damage that may result from those actions. The homeowner shouldn't have to suffer or have to participate in the blame game.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I'd like to have the roof torn off and shingled by the time we show up.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

My impression is that what Jaws is saying is that no matter whose job it is to move and cover and protect stuff it's always the GC's responsibility to make sure that everyone knows and follows the program. I agree with that and I don't delegate that responsibility to anyone. Maybe John doesn't mean that but who has time to read the whole thread?


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Everybody is responsible in Huggy's case. Both himself and the GC. Huggy because he should know better, he's the plumber. They knew what happens when you drain systems.

The GC is responsible for his subs actions. However that does not relieve a plumber's responsibility for starting a job that was not properly prepared for "water" to be near anything of value.

Knowingly going ahead and doing work in an area that your actions will cause damage in - IS WRONG 

This whole "thing" is why F%cking frequently precedes Plumber/s.


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