# Accomodating Immigrant Workers



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I know they are not here illegally, it is a technicality that our forefathers neglected to think of while they were doing the paperwork.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Leo G said:


> I know they are not here illegally, it is a technicality that our forefathers neglected to think of while they were doing the paperwork.


Probably had something to do with making sure the children of slaves born in this country remained their property.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow, crickets...

Was it something i said?


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

loneframer said:


> of slaves born in this country remained their property.


their property, would be the governments or the slaves:blink:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> their property, would be the governments or the slaves:blink:


Sorry, I meant our fore-fathers.

The anchor baby, if nothing else, keeps cheap labor in this country.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

loneframer said:


> , if nothing else, keeps cheap labor in this country.


Oh


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

loneframer said:


> Sorry, I meant our fore-fathers.
> 
> *The anchor baby, if nothing else, keeps cheap labor in this country.*


But at what cost?

The cost of minimum wage was covered by John Stossel in unintended consequences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsnmM4V5lO8


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

To the OP...

Write "NO BASURA = NOT TRASH".... that way maybe they'll learn:thumbsup:


Then you can probably get a federal grant for conducting 'diversity training'


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

PA woodbutcher said:


> But at what cost?
> 
> The cost of minimum wage was covered by John Stossel in unintended consequences.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsnmM4V5lO8


Nobody understands the cost more than the taxpayer.

Believe me, I'm not an advocate of illegal immigration, nor am I a proponent of the welfare system at large.

I'm just stating the points that I see on a daily basis.

I don't employ illegals, but I've worked on many jobs where they were the predominant workforce.

I was on one job in particular, sick as a dog with the flu.

One of the clean-up guys, who spoke very broken English asked me why I don't go to the hospital.

I explained to him that I had no health insurance and could not afford to stay home from work and let the progress at the job fall behind.

That's when he produced his State Healthcare Card.:blink: Then explained to me that when his kids get a cold, he has his wife take them to the Emergency Room for treatment.

I've seen the cost of cheap labor first hand. You're preaching to the choir. Yet, if you go job-site to job-site, who do you see on the roof and hanging siding? Framing and landscaping?

In this area, anyone who is building houses is doing it on the cheap and their subs have to fall in line. How do you think they're doing it, when the American labor force wants to make 25 bucks an hour with vacation time and benefits?

They hire illegals, who don't get vacation time or health insurance and get paid $12-$15 an hour and work 12-14 hours a day.


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

Out here in the rural areas the workforce is predominately legal with a VERY low Hispanic population. Mostly farm boys who grew up working.

99.5% of my customers would throw you off the job site if you showed up with a van load of mexicans, legal or illegal.


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## sancho (Apr 3, 2010)

Just walk on the job site with a blue Jacket or shirt wit ICE written on it.

That will solve your problem


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## blackbear (Feb 29, 2008)

they are starting to infiltrate upstate NY. I Guess I didnt move far enough north. Back on LI illegals were the go to work force, made me sick. Hundreds of them piled in the depot parking lots. I use to call the numbers on the trucks that picked them up and give them a piece of my mind. In my opinion if you hire illegals you are a sell out and should be tried for treason.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

The only reason the "American workforce" requies $25 an hour with vacation pay and full benefits, is because the school teachers and the libs told them that they deserve it.

In reality, the problem is the cheap consumer and people who want to only do un-needed management jobs.

Large fines for the people hiring the illegals is the only way to slow it down. Then, make the illegals work fo pennies doing what the city and state workers do (kinda like community service). We'd save billions. No reason paying guys $35 an hour to plant shrubs on the boulevard.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

loneframer said:


> Nobody understands the cost more than the taxpayer.


But those costs are dispersed to the faceless mass called 'the taxpayer'. Budgetary items for illegals aren't shown as "x for illegals", rather they are hidden in general categories such as 'social services' or 'operations' or the like.

The illegals that come here in no way contribute anything NEAR to the cost of covering the social service costs they incur. Most will claim exempt or 10 deductions on their tax forms so only social security taxes are taken out, not any income tax.

If they get laid off one job, they collect unemp from that job, get another stolen identity of an american, then go to work using that one, once again, no taxes with held.

The females do this with their job and social services (housing/food/health care/legal services/etc.)

And of course that wealth transfer called "earned income credit" gives a lot of illegals back a LOT of cash.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

CO762 said:


> But those costs are dispersed to the faceless mass called 'the taxpayer'. Budgetary items for illegals aren't shown as "x for illegals", rather they are hidden in general categories such as 'social services' or 'operations' or the like.
> 
> The illegals that come here in no way contribute anything NEAR to the cost of covering the social service costs they incur. Most will claim exempt or 10 deductions on their tax forms so only social security taxes are taken out, not any income tax.
> 
> ...


I couldn't have said it better myself.

Spending a few hours at the Board Of Social Services building is a real eye opener.


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

loneframer said:


> I couldn't have said it better myself.
> 
> Spending a few hours at the Board Of Social Services building is a real eye opener.


We dont have alot of illegals. Just a ton of welfare scamming the system getting benefits in PA and NY saying their man left them when hes still living at home while they get SSI for their 6 kids because they all have adhd. I dislike illegals alot, but atleast they are willing to work unlike all the system mooching bums i see walking the street everyday dragging 6 kids that are all spaced 10 months apart.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

jkfox624 said:


> We dont have alot of illegals. Just a ton of welfare scamming the system getting benefits in PA and NY saying their man left them when hes still living at home while they get SSI for their 6 kids because they all have adhd. I dislike illegals alot, but atleast they are willing to work unlike all the system mooching bums i see walking the street everyday dragging 6 kids that are all spaced 10 months apart.


You are correct. Now, how do we ween them off the states nipple and put them in the system?

We could make them legal citizens and give them a legit SSI number, but that won't stop them from milking the system that they have been taught to exploit by the employees of the system.

When my mother was in the hospital in Feb, after a TIA, or mini-stroke as it's referred to, I saw a number of non-English speaking parents come in with their children. They were dressed better than I can afford to and very clean and neat. In one case, the child walked in on her own and didn't appear to be in any pain or discomfort, but received some kind of treatment, while one of the parents was aided in filling out paperwork for all the programs available to them by a Spanish speaking social worker, who has an office just inside the front desk.

I was in the ER waiting room for several hours and saw no less than 6 families fill out the paperwork in that office. None were English speaking and none showed any form of ID.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

blackbear said:


> they are starting to infiltrate upstate NY. I Guess I didnt move far enough north. Back on LI illegals were the go to work force, made me sick. Hundreds of them piled in the depot parking lots. I use to call the numbers on the trucks that picked them up and give them a piece of my mind. In my opinion if you hire illegals you are a sell out and should be tried for treason.


I really fail to see how hiring illegals is equal to treason. Sell out, perhaps, but that's only if you are paying someone less BECAUSE of their immigration status. Which, does make you a bad person who is taking advantage of the situation. But, to be honest, many US. born people are un-willing to do the "not so fun" work at an acceptable standard. There are those who grew up on a farm, they have an old world work ethic as well, but, we all know how hard it is to find good help.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)




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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

loneframer said:


> You are correct. Now, how do we ween them off the states nipple and put them in the system?
> 
> We could make them legal citizens and give them a legit SSI number, but that won't stop them from milking the system that they have been taught to exploit by the employees of the system.
> 
> ...


I really dont have an answer. The system is flawed on so many levels. There is zero incentive to get off the system. Free housing, money for cars, cell phones, health care, food. Most of these people would barely make what they are given by the state if they had a job. So why find one?


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

The whole thing is a big problem without a doubt. The welfare state is a huge burden on this country and the way illegal immigration depresses wages in some fields is a tragedy for someone who is trying to make a living doing the same thing. There is a lot of work that it's hard to get someone to do the work on and when illegals do it they are often times really taken advantage of; this is especially true in agriculture. 

The reality is the U.S. and Mexico are more interdependent than ever before and what would be a good thing would be to lay the cards on the table and come up with a system that recognizes the reality and then develop a system to deal with it that would benefit both countries. Maybe have a small surcharge tax go on the wages of immigrants from Mexico and use that money to help develop the areas they come from so they aren't forced to leave in order to make a living. There is an incredible amount of poverty in Mexico and in order to support a family it's a common experience to have to leave your family and work up here. Another idea is to have special advantages for companies that keep production here in north America so we don't outsource work to Asia but keep it on this continent. This was one of the goals of NAFTA but China up to this point has so underpriced everybody that they are getting this work. When we go to Mexico it's not uncommon to see tourist goods that used to be made in Mexico, such as wallets and belts, now made in China.

For welfare, no one should get anything for free. If you get it you should have to pay back somehow, even if it's only picking up litter along the side of the road.

A final note; Illegal immigration is a huge problem and needs to be dealt with in a manner that benefits this country but we could do a lot worse than having Mexicans as the predominant illegals flooding in. In the final analysis the similarities between our two countries are vastly more similar than our differences.


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## JHC (Jun 4, 2010)

flashheatingand said:


> I really fail to see how hiring illegals is equal to treason. Sell out, perhaps, but that's only if you are paying someone less BECAUSE of their immigration status. Which, does make you a bad person who is taking advantage of the situation. But, to be honest, many US. born people are un-willing to do the "not so fun" work at an acceptable standard. There are those who grew up on a farm, they have an old world work ethic as well, but, we all know how hard it is to find good help.


Its just not true. Americans don't want to do these jobs for wages that aren't in line with cost of living increases. Its holding everyone back. 

Keep in mind that we are all in the service business. If more people made more money then we would all have more clients that could afford our services. 

The economy would boom because those at the lower incomes would spend most of that income increase. 

We complain that social programs costs so much money to tax payers, yet I don't see how anyone could live off a minimum wage job without government assistance. 

The real problem is income disparity, and the fact that is has been growing since the 60s. The time of the great generation after the boys came home from WW2 and until the 70s was a time of prosperity for Americans. Funny how this graph shows financial ruin when the income share of the top 10% grows so rapidly. Their gain every ones loss. 


Jobs are being lost because of foolish trade policies, and new jobs from small business here are being stifled by payroll taxes. Taxes that were increased to offset cuts in Corporate taxes.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Why hasn't Obama addressed the immigration system and it's issues? I mean come in it's been over 2 years and this was a hot topic in all the primary's, I bet McCain would have dealt with it by now.


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## BPWY (Sep 21, 2009)

loneframer said:


> As contractors, we should all know by now that except for a rare few, most jobs are sold on price. Quality of work is secondary.








Aint that the truth. All you gotta do to see the truth in your statement is watch any one of the flipping shows on TV.
"Flipping Las Vegas" comes to mind right now. All that guy is concerned about is price (CHEAP) and how soon can they be done. He works his subs about 20 hrs a day on very unrealistic dead lines and is always screaming at them for their F ups.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> Why hasn't Obama addressed the immigration system and it's issues? I mean come in it's been over 2 years and this was a hot topic in all the primary's, I bet McCain would have dealt with it by now.




Many of those children, who were born to illegal immigrants will reach voting age and be US citizens. I'm curious as to who they will vote for.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

loneframer said:


> who they will vote for.


loneframer for President:clap::laughing:


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> loneframer for President:clap::laughing:


Or he will nail your foot to the floor:laughing::laughing:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

loneframer said:


> Many of those children, who were born to illegal immigrants will reach voting age and be US citizens. I'm curious as to who they will vote for.


And I will also assume when the reach the age of majority they can sponsor their parents to become US citizens


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> And I will also assume when the reach the age of majority they can sponsor their parents to become US citizens


I'm certain that is not far from the truth, if not balls on dead accurate.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

I had a GC that wanted me to learn spanish, so I could communicate with his other subs ...


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

smalpierre said:


> I had a GC that wanted me to learn spanish, so I could communicate with his other subs ...


Spanish is being taught in my public and private schools from grade K.

Except for the non-English speaking students, who have English as a second language instead.

The elementary schools had such a high number of non English speaking students that every classroom had a Spanish speaking aide when my kids were there.

My county is what was called an "Abbott District", which got additional state funding for the over-burdened school systems.

Many of the tax-payers in the more affluent counties were up in arms over the offset funding, however, they didn't want the additional students bussed to their districts either.

My last GF had an interview at one public school in a nearby town, who they wanted to teach ballet in the physical education department.

One of her interview questions was, "How are you going to deal with a student population of which less than 50% are English speaking?"

Her reply: "Well, ballet terminology is predominantly French, do any of them happen to be from France?":laughing:

This is in a local High School.:blink:


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## blackbear (Feb 29, 2008)

flashheatingand said:


> I really fail to see how hiring illegals is equal to treason. Sell out, perhaps, but that's only if you are paying someone less BECAUSE of their immigration status. Which, does make you a bad person who is taking advantage of the situation. But, to be honest, many US. born people are un-willing to do the "not so fun" work at an acceptable standard. There are those who grew up on a farm, they have an old world work ethic as well, but, we all know how hard it is to find good help.


treason is defined as betrayal against ones nation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason
betraying the tax payers and citizens of this country. The scum that hire the invaders should walk the plank.

And the argument that they are the only ones willing to do certain jobs is BS. I still have my post hole digger and shovel.


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

Chris Johnson said:


> Why hasn't Obama addressed the immigration system and it's issues? I mean come in it's been over 2 years and this was a hot topic in all the primary's, I bet McCain would have dealt with it by now.


McCain wanted an amnesty program, thats how he wanted to deal with it. Him and Kennedy tried to ram a bill thru but it didn't work out.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

And the history of the United States is everytime there is immigration reform it is the republicans that make it happen!!

So after your done with Obama and his yes men this thread can become null and void as it will be dealt with promptly next time.


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

Chris Johnson said:


> And the history of the United States is everytime there is immigration reform it is the republicans that make it happen!!
> 
> So after your done with Obama and his yes men this thread can become null and void as it will be dealt with promptly next time.


???WTF??? I stated a historical fact. what do you mean"After your done with Obama and his yes men this thread can become null and void as it will be dealt with promptly next time."?


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## Drabe (Jun 11, 2011)

loneframer said:


> DWB,
> 
> I live in an area that has always been populated with migrant workers, both legal and illegal.
> 
> ...


i couldn't agree with you more. we need more kids like me and nick into the trades. i wish i could be working now but don't know anyone who wants a kid to be a laborer, it doesnt help that i have little time with drivers ed. the one builder i know says dont go into construction but ive wanted to be a builder since i was 4 years old.

i wish i could build sheds like nick but i have little money to put into wood and tools. my tools collection needs to be added to badly. i use my dads stuff alot but he uses a lot of black and decker some harbor freight junk. they do it for him but not for me.

thank god my high school has boces classes. next year im going to school to take general house construction. im even gonna give up the advanced placement credits to take 2 years of boces.

there needs to be more kids that want to build and work hard these days. if i could get a job as a laborer i would do it in a heartbeat,


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

let's keep political affiliation out of the discussion and keep it out of the P&R forum. This problem has been around for more than two years and more than one administration.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Drabe said:


> i couldn't agree with you more. we need more kids like me and nick into the trades. i wish i could be working now but know anyone who wants a kid to be a laborer, it doesnt help that i have little time with drivers ed. the one builder i know says dont go into construction but ive wanted to be a builder since i was 4 years old.
> 
> i wish i could build sheds like nick but i have little money to put into wood and tools. my tools collection needs to be added to badly. i use my dads stuff alot but he uses a lot of black and decker some harbor freight junk. they do it for him but not for me.
> 
> ...


When I was in HS, there were many trade classes available at the school as well as at the vocational-technical center.

My 10th grade year, there were two Building Trades sessions per day, with over 60 kids in each session. 11th grade was close to the same. They have since canceled the program due to lack of interest.

It was a great program in which we poured the footings, laid block foundations, framed, roofed, sided, insulated, built masonry fireplaces, installed drywall and trim. Each year a house was constructed and auctioned off and the proceeds fueled the program for the next year. I left BT after 3 periods and went into the Cabinet making shop for 1 period. Those cabinets went into the Building Trades house.

Here's a pic of my first project in cabinet making class, 30 years ago. Still have it.:clap:


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

hey Lone, first let me commend you on your level headed pragmatic approach on this thread:thumbsup: Secondly a question for the others to ponder???? as you have well documented your skill set it is obvious that there is a demand for somone like yourself..... DO you feel threatened by cheap labor???


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

You can look at it a couple of ways, question is the labor cheap? I say no it's not because they also work at a slower pace and the language barrier slows things down and generally speaking the standard of work is not as high as we expect and redoing or extra time to explain our expectations all add up


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Chris Johnson said:


> You can look at it a couple of ways, question is the labor cheap? I say no it's not because they also work at a slower pace and the language barrier slows things down and generally speaking the standard of work is not as high as we expect and redoing or extra time to explain our expectations all add up


So I don't think most people are threatened by it


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## blackbear (Feb 29, 2008)

im not getting the cheap labor part either. They get a ride to and from work, their lunches are often paid for, they have no tools and dont speak english. Not to mention the days of paying them 8/hr are over. Now they are demanding 120-150/ day.


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

exactly chris!... that is why I actually benefit from cheap labor. There will always be a never ending supply of potential clients that are looking for the" cheap guy". The more the labor pool gets dumbed dowm and dilluted, the more my worth goes up!!! as a Professional you have to constantly raise the bar and never cross that line in the sand!! If you don't you might as well go to work for some body:no:
I chuckle every time I see work performed by the" monkey see monkey do brigade". Again my worth goes up!. I personally don't feel the need to bad mouth them to potential clients because if they don't already understand the difference, then they will never understand and more importantly appreciate the value that I and others bring to the table every day


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

5150, if I might, I'd like to comment.

I know of several upper end framers who have found themselves doing anything but framing since the market fell apart.

I also see that of all the homes being built in this area, almost every worker on the job is an immigrant. There are few exceptions, so yes, I think there is cause for alarm for all of us.

I am blessed to have stayed busy throughout this economic situation, but never will I take it for granted. There are still some clients that insist on a higher level of professionalism and craftsmanship, so those who possess the ability to please them can rest a little easier than some of the guys still honing their skills.

As for the young guys coming into the trades workforce, who are nearly non-existent around here, there is little to no opportunity to get into the trades and make a career out of it. This is due partially to the wages being paid and partially due to a lazy attitude.

The only light at the end of the tunnel is as the illegals become more Americanized, they will band together and either form a labor union, or hide in the closets smoking bowls.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Easy for you to say Parkers5150. Look at your location and what you do. 

It's tough when only 1 out of 100 people actually give a chit about who is working at their house. Of those 99, 90 are price shoppers.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

blackbear said:


> treason is defined as betrayal against ones nation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason
> betraying the tax payers and citizens of this country. The scum that hire the invaders should walk the plank.
> 
> And the argument that they are the only ones willing to do certain jobs is BS. I still have my post hole digger and shovel.


The majority of immigrants that cross the border legally or illegally, came here for work, no delusions of invasion. Professionally, I just want someone to be pleasant and do the task at hand. Frequently, the task is not a pleasant one, and if they opt out, or do such a half a__ job, I have no need for them. I pay a respectable wage and ask that they do a respectable job in return. 

From my experiences, most immigrants (Eastern European, African, Hispanic...whatever) appreciate having work, meanwhile, many of us feel entitled. I never said that none of us will do the menial jobs, but, truth of the matter, "that's not my job" is heard all too frequently amongst US.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

parkers5150 said:


> eThe more the labor pool gets dumbed dowm and dilluted, the more my worth goes up!!! as a Professional you have to constantly raise the bar and never cross that line in the sand!! If you don't you might as well go to work for some body:no:
> I chuckle every time I see work performed by the" monkey see monkey do brigade". Again my worth goes up!. I personally don't feel the need to bad mouth them to potential clients because if they don't already understand the difference, then they will never understand and more importantly appreciate the value that I and others bring to the table every day


The flaw in your statement is that all it takes is for a handful of the monkey see, monkey do brigade to actually learn from someone who is at the top of their game, trying to compete with the market and now you have a bunch of guys with a skill. It happens, because I've seen it time and time again. in the tile/flooring trade, framing, roofing, siding, drywall. These workers are not stupid and they can make it in a country that doesn't speak their language on the whole. To turn a blind eye to them and underestimating what they can and already have accomplished is a fools game. 10 years ago, it was a rarity to see an immigrant worker doing anything other than cutting in the fields or cutting a lawn. In 10 years, they have all but taken over the workforce in the trades here. That's no BS and it isn't candy coated.

In another 10 years, they will be at the top of the food chain, calling us Chum.


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

MJW, you have made an incorrect assumption. I sift through price shoppers and clueless HO's on a regulars basis. Living in one of the major gateways of cheap labor not to mention Cali pretty much wrote the book on pimping out cheap labor, I found myself getting pushed out of one of my passions(framing) back in the Eighties!! Like Lone said, nowadays... faggetabout it! It is for this very reason that I made a conscious decision to get out of the Kiddie pool so to speak. Sure alot of jobs get by me, but I look as that as a positive. I have been going balls to the walls for the entire year of 2011 without comprimising my worth


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

I am not anti-patriotic. Heck, I take time to watch figure skating, bobsledding and curling during the olympics to support our gals and guys. What I want is for us as a whole, is for all of us to step up our game.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> You can look at it a couple of ways, question is the labor cheap? I say no it's not because they also work at a slower pace and the language barrier slows things down and generally speaking the standard of work is not as high as we expect and redoing or extra time to explain our expectations all add up


Some of the hardest workers Ive been around were Mexicans


flashheatingand said:


> The majority of immigrants that cross the border legally or illegally, came here for work, no delusions of invasion.


I wonder why 1/3 of our fed. prisons are illegal aliens:blink:


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

that's my point Lone' I'm not turning a blind eye!!! I'm constantly honing my skills, hell I've even got some things in my arsenal that have been stolen straight from the "brigade". I've been immersed in the mexican culture since the age of 16, I'm 47. I speak their language, i love their food, i respect their family values, and ive surfed their waves from TJ to Mainland. The reason they come is obvious but!!! when they come they bring an eighth grade education at best. Critical thinking, communication, and years of working for and along side true craftsmen are just a couple of things "the competition" is truly lacking in. I'm not selling hot dogs, I'm selling Filet Mignon with a recipe that i've been working on for 29 years.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Some of the hardest workers Ive been around were Mexicans
> 
> I wonder why 1/3 of our fed. prisons are illegal aliens:blink:


I'd guess a good deal of them are human trafficers, drug trafficers, gang members (labor union of sorts)....


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Some of the hardest workers Ive been around were Mexicans
> 
> I wonder why 1/3 of our fed. prisons are illegal aliens:blink:


Sure they are hard workers but look how little they accomplish over the course of the day, I'd wager from my own observations it takes twice as many now from when I started and less is completed.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

parkers5150 said:


> that's my point Lone' I'm not turning a blind eye!!! I'm constantly honing my skills, hell I've even got some things in my arsenal that have been stolen straight from the "brigade". I've been immersed in the mexican culture since the age of 16, I'm 47. I speak their language, i love their food, i respect their family values, and ive surfed their waves from TJ to Mainland. The reason they come is obvious but!!! when they come they bring an eighth grade education at best. Critical thinking, communication, and years of working for and along side true craftsmen are just a couple of things "the competition" is truly lacking in. I'm not selling hot dogs, I'm selling Filet Mignon with a recipe that i've been working on for 29 years.


All that may be true, but their children are being educated and mainstreamed into our culture. They will have the communication skills, the business knowledge and the work ethic to bring a strong fight.

The children will set up legal businesses and their parents will supply the workforce. Then instead of child labor laws and immigration labor laws, we'll all be railing for parent labor laws. There are tons of immigrants working as their own entities now, many illegally. Wait until they are working for their children, who are legal citizens of the US.

This will bring an end to the Gringos exploiting the immigrant workforce.


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

isn't that what everyone is asking for??


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

parkers5150 said:


> isn't that what everyone is asking for??


Ask and you shall receive.....

or better yet,

be careful what you wish for


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

the city that I live in was once an Upper crust only area. Today when you venture into town there is a heavy latino presence. I find it particularly amusing because this used to be the hometown and stomping grounds for The one and only Mr. Metzger. The schools in particular are predominately Latino. The fact that they are in "american" schools doesn't make them automatically on par. You have to remember that they go home to parents with an eighth grade education and equivalent expectations. So in fact even though they are bettering themselves, the American bar is being lowered. this fact is is lighted in the that more and more people are choosing not to move here because the school system is dumbing down. I firmly believe that it will take generations before people with skill sets such as yours will truly be compromised


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

parkers5150 said:


> I firmly believe that it will take generations before people with skill sets such as yours will truly be compromised


Maybe, maybe not, but when it happens, I will have at least seen it coming. I never underestimate my competition.


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

yer killin' me Lone, I'm trying to make lasagna and water my property


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

as you shouldn't:thumbsup:


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

loneframer said:


> I'm sure the Native Americans were pretty pissed when we (The White Man)showed up here and started taking over as well. I'm no historian, but I'd be willing to wager that not many of the English immigrants learned the native tongue.
> 
> Maybe we should all learn to say GTFO in 21 languages.:thumbsup:


 The spoils of war belong to the victor.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

JarrattProp said:


> I'm not saying the children don't want to learn the trades, I'm saying we are no longer teaching the trades. Due to the lack of tech workers in America, computers are becoming the new trade. It seems that the shift is to allow illegals to build the houses and have Americans go the tech route.
> 
> Plan Big. Start Small. Act Now!


Anericans are not needed for tech jobs either. Indians will do that work cheaper, either in India or through H1B visas here. The American worker is obsolete without protectionist policies.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Doubleoh7 said:


> The spoils of war belong to the victor.


Welcome to the United States of Mexico.:thumbsup:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Doubleoh7 said:


> Anericans are not needed for tech jobs either. Indians will do that work cheaper, either in India or through H1B visas here. The American worker is obsolete without protectionist policies.


How do you figure that? Our pay rates my be obsolete, but the workers are still fine. The problem is that a lot of the rest of the world lives below poverty and they want us to come down to there level. Well I say nay-nay, welcome to the 21st century and get in line with modern conveniences.


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## Cletus (Jan 7, 2008)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> I wonder why 1/3 of our fed. prisons are illegal aliens:blink:


It is simply because immigration violations are a federal crime, hence they go to a federal prison. Illegal aliens make up a very small percentage of the total number of people who are imprisoned in the US.



jawtrs said:


> ...I think trying to get our younger generations interested in becoming pros in the trades is imperative. But when most homeowners will hire hacks to work on their homes, which is becoming more and more prevalent, there's not much for them to look toward to....


Exactly. Why would someone at the beginning of their working lives choose to invest their efforts into a decaying industry when it is clearly a lost cause? 

The older, established tradesmen cling to the hope of a return to the glory years while the new generation makes their way, the best they can, in the world they inherited; a world where buildings are insignificant disposable items constructed by the underclass for the lowest possible price per square foot. The young don't even see a problem, it's just how it is.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Leo G said:


> How do you figure that? Our pay rates my be obsolete, but the workers are still fine. The problem is that a lot of the rest of the world lives below poverty and they want us to come down to there level. Well I say nay-nay, welcome to the 21st century and get in line with modern conveniences.



The problem is that there are not immigration and trade policies to protect the American worker. Don't look for it to change, corporate America owns our politicians. This is why we are in an economic depression and it ain't gonna get better for the forseeable future.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

It amazes me the responses on here every time immigration comes up. Illegal is illegal. period. What I hear most is they work for wages and do work americans won't do. Bull****. My guys make between $10-$16 dollars an hour. They do exceptional work. ALL are Americans. I tried to pick up a laborer on the corner to help my mom in her yard. Guess what? They won't work for less than $10/hr. SO WTF? It is greed plain and simple on the part of the people who hire them. If everyone refused to hire illegals guess what would happen? The price of construction would go up. BIG DEAL. the customer would pay. People don't stop driving when gas goes up. They pay it. Why? Cause no one else is selling it cheaper. It's not rocket science. STOP HIRING ILLEGALS and THEY WILL GO HOME. Stop letting greed dictate your actions. I will never hire illegals and my business is growing every year. I have 5 guys working for me. Business is good. Yes I get out bid alot.(when I bid) But I tell anyone up front I'm not the lowest price . Never will be. And I don't hire Illegals. I tell everyone upfront. Seems to be working for me. Don't hire them and they will go away.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

summithomeinc said:


> It amazes me the responses on here every time immigration comes up. Illegal is illegal. period. What I hear most is they work for wages and do work americans won't do. Bull****. My guys make between $10-$16 dollars an hour. They do exceptional work. ALL are Americans. I tried to pick up a laborer on the corner to help my mom in her yard. Guess what? They won't work for less than $10/hr. SO WTF? It is greed plain and simple on the part of the people who hire them. If everyone refused to hire illegals guess what would happen? The price of construction would go up. BIG DEAL. the customer would pay. People don't stop driving when gas goes up. They pay it. Why? Cause no one else is selling it cheaper. It's not rocket science. STOP HIRING ILLEGALS and THEY WILL GO HOME. Stop letting greed dictate your actions. I will never hire illegals and my business is growing every year. I have 5 guys working for me. Business is good. Yes I get out bid alot.(when I bid) But I tell anyone up front I'm not the lowest price . Never will be. And I don't hire Illegals. I tell everyone upfront. Seems to be working for me. Don't hire them and they will go away.



And, if the greedy criminals will stop hiring illegals, there will be MORE work. Illegal mexicans have infiltrated a lot of other industries besides contruction. Have you ever seen the inside of a meat plant???? At one time Americans were doing those jobs. They were also paid enough to own a home, a home that had to be built and maintained.


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## Cletus (Jan 7, 2008)

summithomeinc said:


> ...I tried to pick up a laborer on the corner to help my mom in her yard. Guess what? They won't work for less than $10/hr...


That seems reasonable for work performed out in the hot GA sun compared to what an insured professional yard maintenance company would charge. Why do you think $10/hr was too too much?



summithomeinc said:


> ... It is greed plain and simple on the part of the people who hire them. ...


Oh...


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Cletus said:


> That seems reasonable for work performed out in the hot GA sun compared to what an insured professional yard maintenance company would charge. Why do you think $10/hr was too too much?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Cletus (Jan 7, 2008)

Doubleoh7 said:


> And, if the greedy criminals will stop hiring illegals, there will be MORE work. Illegal mexicans have infiltrated a lot of other industries besides contruction. Have you ever seen the inside of a meat plant???? At one time Americans were doing those jobs. They were also paid enough to own a home, a home that had to be built and maintained.


The only time those working in the meat packing factories were paid enough to own their own home might have been for a very short period after WWII, if ever. 

Check out the history of meat packing in Chicago from its beginnings until WWII and look at how those Americans lived and were treated. They lived in rented slums with garbage and poop filled streets. During WWII the work was done by women and those unable to fight. From the 60's through today it is back to the way it started.

Those types of jobs have always been done by the very poor and by immigrants who are exactly the type of person that Contractor Talk members advise to stay away from as a customers because they can't afford the quality work performed by the professionals that frequent this site.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Cletus said:


> The only time those working in the meat packing factories were paid enough to own their own home might have been for a very short period after WWII, if ever.
> 
> Check out the history of meat packing in Chicago from its beginnings until WWII and look at how those Americans lived and were treated. They lived in rented slums with garbage and poop filled streets. During WWII the work was done by women and those unable to fight. From the 60's through today it is back to the way it started.
> 
> Those types of jobs have always been done by the very poor and by immigrants who are exactly the type of person that Contractor Talk members advise to stay away from as a customers because they can't afford the quality work performed by the professionals that frequent this site.




That is not true. I know some folks who made a decent living with benefits doing that kind of work right up into the 80's.


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## Cletus (Jan 7, 2008)

summithomeinc said:


> Cletus said:
> 
> 
> > That seems reasonable for work performed out in the hot GA sun compared to what an insured professional yard maintenance company would charge. Why do you think $10/hr was too too much?
> ...


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Cletus said:


> summithomeinc said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I don't get it. If legal American's are willing to work for the same wage as the illegals then why are the jobs going to illegals?
> ...


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## Cletus (Jan 7, 2008)

Doubleoh7 said:


> That is not true. I know some folks who made a decent living with benefits doing that kind of work right up into the 80's.


I'm sure there were some exceptions. It takes an extremely strong willed or desperate person to do that kind of work. 

I can't ever imagine that kind off work becoming attractive again. I would rather hand bang railroad spikes than cut meat but that job is gone to the machines.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Cletus said:


> I'm sure there were some exceptions. It takes an extremely strong willed or desperate person to do that kind of work.
> 
> I can't ever imagine that kind off work becoming attractive again. I would rather hand bang railroad spikes than cut meat but that job is gone to the machines.



I'd rather do that work than be on welfare and live in public housing. That is, if it was stable, paid enough to own a modest home, and provided decent benefits. It was never attractive work, but people could make a living, own a home , and feed their kids. You don't get it.


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## Cletus (Jan 7, 2008)

Doubleoh7 said:


> No, you don't get it.


Do you get it? I mean besides being angry about how things have changed and agreeing with buzz words like "infiltrate" what is there to get? What are you going to do about it anyways? 

Rounding up 12 million people, busing them somewhere, and then defending thousands of miles of border isn't going to do much to help 150 million of the middle class. Wages may rise a little but costs would rise right along with them leaving us right where we are now.

Illegal immigration has been on the decline for the last decade as the economy has grown worse. Illegal immigration is not a major problem, it is simply a tool used to appeal to peoples emotions and to divert attention from other, bigger problems. We are not competing with 12 million illegal immigrants, we are competing with the two billion people in China and India who are quickly catching up with us while we spend all our money on weapons to protect us from goat herders. 

Our short period of prosperity is long over. It is not coming back in our lifetimes and it's not because of a few Mexicans taking our jobs.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Cletus said:


> Do you get it? I mean besides being angry about how things have changed and agreeing with buzz words like "infiltrate" what is there to get? What are you going to do about it anyways?
> 
> Rounding up 12 million people, busing them somewhere, and then defending thousands of miles of border isn't going to do much to help 150 million of the middle class. Wages may rise a little but costs would rise right along with them leaving us right where we are now.
> 
> ...


 You don't get it.


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## Cletus (Jan 7, 2008)

Doubleoh7 said:


> ...That is, if it was stable, paid enough to own a modest home, and provided decent benefits. ...


Put a real number on that. Home-ownership + benefits (vacation,sick leave, medical), what is that 45, 50K a year in today's money? 

So everyone, including the meat cutters, pot hole fillers, and yard mowers get paid that, after the Mexicans leave, so we can all afford homes and keep the contractors in business.

Is that what I don't get?


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## Cletus (Jan 7, 2008)

Doubleoh7 said:


> You don't get it.


We're still playing that game?

Never-mind then.


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