# tile shower pan



## Mcdonoughman (Feb 12, 2008)

I am going to put a custom shower pan where a tub is now. This may be a stupid question but why do you put a mud pan then rubber membrane then another mud layer instead of just one mud layer over the rubber membrane?


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

It has got to be Pre-sloped baby.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

www.tileusa.com to see the standards, make sure you up size drain and have inspections.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

A better question would be why anyone is still doing showers with liners?

I have never ripped out a "traditional" shower that wasn't saturated with water.

Kerdi - all the way - use their base or do a dry pack base - either way - it is the best system going (in my opinion!)


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## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

I agree:thumbsup: A surface membrane shower is the only way to go. I only use Kerdi systems. Actually I hope other tile setters in my areas keep bidding the old fashioned way.:laughing: The problem is most tile guys don't build showers correctly at all. Like;

No pre-slope, they use greenboard, nail into the membrane to fasten the wall board near floor level or curb, etc. some even use mastic, well, you guys all know what goes on out there.

Jaz


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

I don't know about in the States, but here in Canada, at least in the SouthWestern Ontario area, nobody ever does a pre-slope or have weeping holes for the moisture to escape. I can honestly say I have ripped out more than 100 tile showers and have Never seen a pre-slope base - never!!
I can also say every base was saturated with water and mould...yummy!


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

I am doing one now that is the worst I have ever seen. 

Sub floor dropped 12", liner directly over subfloor, dryset 8" thick, top sloped to 6" to drain head. 

It wasn't too bad until the floor rotted and dropped out of it.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Last one I did, the HO cut a hole in the basement slab and recessed a fiberglass pan 6" into the slab to give themselves more head room in the shower. I cannot tell you how bad it was after demo. Mold about 16" up the greenboard, every sill plate rotted and about 3" of water in the sand under the fiberglass pan.
:thumbup:


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## Ceramictec (Feb 14, 2008)

guess you never ripped out a Florida recessed shower.
for the longest time builders were recessing the slab with no liners.
there thought was that the water would just escape out under the home.
well Schluter and the area reps have been pushing for new plumbing codes
and in most counties they need pans now.

here is one I ripped out with drywall, recessed slab and no pan.


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

Mcdonoughman said:


> I am going to put a custom shower pan where a tub is now. This may be a stupid question but why do you put a mud pan then rubber membrane then another mud layer instead of just one mud layer over the rubber membrane?


Its actually quite simple - you want the pre slope under the lining so any water (and yes there will be) that gets to the lining will flow down to the drain instead of seeking its own escape in a corner, or building up. 

If you haven't follow the link from KevJob & I also would suggest looking into the Schluter system


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Ceramictec said:


> guess you never ripped out a Florida recessed shower.
> for the longest time builders were recessing the slab with no liners.
> there thought was that the water would just escape out under the home.
> well Schluter and the area reps have been pushing for new plumbing codes
> ...


Your Business Tax is not a license, it lists you as a subcontractor that means you can not bid work directly, you have to work under a general, residential or building contractors license.

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=265245043

You advertise yourself and your company as a Tile Contractor, you are required to have a license to bid and do tile work in Florida, also in the state of Florida ALL forms of advertising are required to have your license number on it and they don't mean business tax number.

The thought process behind not requiring a pan in recessed showers on the 1st floor slab on grade is if the shower leaked, it would perk through the slab, a pan is not going to keep the walls from rotting.

In all of the remodels I do, I make sure the Licensed Plumber installs a shower pan, even in situations where code does not require it.


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

> In all of the remodels I do, I make sure the Licensed Plumber installs a shower pan, even in situations where code does not require it.


Wow, good luck with that one. :thumbsup:


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## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

If I don't install the pan, I won't guarantee it.

Plumber install it?, yeah right.:no:

I get involved after the plumber gets the 2" drain where I need it, I go from there.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

R&D Tile said:


> If I don't install the pan, I won't guarantee it.
> 
> Plumber install it?, yeah right.:no:
> 
> I get involved after the plumber gets the 2" drain where I need it, I go from there.


Same here. Most of the plumbers I've ran across couldn't install a liner correctly if their life depended on it. (no offense to you pipe wranglers out there) :thumbsup: I've seen wadded up corners, and nail punctures pass inspections too


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

R&D Tile said:


> If I don't install the pan, I won't guarantee it.
> 
> Plumber install it?, yeah right.:no:
> 
> I get involved after the plumber gets the 2" drain where I need it, I go from there.


In Florida the pan is considered part of the Plumbing system, that is why it is in the Plumbing Code Book, tile guys are not legally allowed to put Pans in.

I guess Florida has stricter standards than other states.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

bwalley said:


> In Florida the pan is considered part of the Plumbing system, that is why it is in the Plumbing Code Book, tile guys are not legally allowed to put Pans in.
> 
> I guess Florida has stricter standards than other states.


 
Stricter Standards?? Seems more like idiotic standards if you ask me, but, alas, Florida won't be the last jurisdiction in the world to enact stupid standards such as that. We have a few of our own up here in Canada.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

jarvis design said:


> Stricter Standards?? Seems more like idiotic standards if you ask me, but, alas, Florida won't be the last jurisdiction in the world to enact stupid standards such as that. We have a few of our own up here in Canada.


Tile guys are licensed at the county level which has pretty loose standards, Division 1 License holders can do tile as well, but since the shower pan is part of the drain system in a shower it is appropriately done by the licensed Plumber.

Anyone can get a license to put in tile, it is quite a bit more difficult to get a Plumbing Contractors license.

The shower pans are installed and Inspected before the tile installer even show's up.

Installing tile does not require a permit or an inspection.

I am not sure how they do it in Canada, but in Florida we have pretty high standards of how things are supposed to be done.


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## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

And, how is the pan installed per code down there.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Ceramictec said:


> guess you never ripped out a Florida recessed shower.
> for the longest time builders were recessing the slab with no liners.
> there thought was that the water would just escape out under the home.
> well Schluter and the area reps have been pushing for new plumbing codes
> ...


If this is Florida standards, I think I'll pass!!


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

R&D Tile said:


> And, how is the pan installed per code down there.


Per Florida Building Code 2004, Plumbing.

I underlined where the exception to the pan is, yet in all cases, I have pans installed, evn though it is not required by FBC.

*417.5 Shower floors or receptors. *
Floor surfaces shall be constructed of impervious, noncorrosive, nonabsorbent and waterproof materials. 


*417.5.1 Support. *
Floors or receptors under shower compartments shall be laid on, and supported by, a smooth and structurally sound base. 


*417.5.2 Shower lining. *
Floors under shower compartments, except where prefabricated receptors have been provided, shall be lined and made water tight utilizing material complying with Sections 417.5.2.1 through 417.5.2.4 . Such liners shall turn up on all sides at least 2 inches (51 mm) above the finished threshold level. Liners shall be recessed and fastened to an approved backing so as not to occupy the space required for wall covering, and shall not be nailed or perforated at any point less than 1 inch (25 mm) above the finished threshold. Liners shall be pitched one-fourth unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope) and shall be sloped toward the fixture drains and be securely fastened to the waste outlet at the seepage entrance, making a water-tight joint between the liner and the outlet. 

*Exceptions: *

1. Floor surfaces under shower heads provided for rinsing laid directly on the ground are not required to comply with this section. 

2.  Shower compartments where the finished shower drain is depressed a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm) below the surrounding finished floor on the first floor level and the shower recess is poured integrally with the adjoining floor. 


*417.5.2.1 PVC sheets. *
Plasticized polyvinyl chloride (PVC) sheets shall be a minimum of 0.040 inch (1.02 mm) thick, and shall meet the requirements of ASTM D 4551. Sheets shall be joined by solvent welding in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions. 


*417.5.2.2 Chlorinated polyethylene (CPE) sheets. *
Nonplasticized chlorinated polyethylene sheet shall be a minimum 0.040 inch (1.02 mm) thick, and shall meet the requirements of ASTM D 4068. The liner shall be joined in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions. 


*417.5.2.3 Sheet lead. *
Sheet lead shall not weigh less than 4 pounds per square foot (19.5 kg/m 2 ) coated with an asphalt paint or other approved coating. The lead sheet shall be insulated from conducting substances other than the connecting drain by 15-pound (6.80 kg) asphalt felt or its equivalent. Sheet lead shall be joined by burning. 


*417.5.2.4 Sheet copper. *
Sheet copper shall conform to ASTM B 152 and shall not weigh less than 12 ounces per square foot (3.7 kg/m 2 ). The copper sheet shall be insulated from conducting substances other than the connecting drain by 15-pound (6.80 kg) asphalt felt or its equivalent. Sheet copper shall be joined by brazing or soldering.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

jarvis design said:


> If this is Florida standards, I think I'll pass!!


How would a pan in this case made any difference?

The shower pan is part of the drain system, it does not protect against shoddy tile work.


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## confluencebuild (Jan 4, 2009)

Better yet, hot mop it, like a six ply roofing system.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

confluencebuild said:


> Better yet, hot mop it, like a six ply roofing system.


That is not an approved product for shower pans in Florida.

Seems to me the code has it covered pretty well already.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

bwalley said:


> That is not an approved product for shower pans in Florida.
> 
> Seems to me the code has it covered pretty well already.


I read the codes and you are correct, they are very strict. Too bad they are out of date with what is happening in the tile industry. 

I don't know how many "traditional" shower pans you have ripped out but let me assure you, there are better ways to build a shower base.

Do yourself a favor and look into Schluter Kerdi.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

jarvis design said:


> I read the codes and you are correct, they are very strict. Too bad they are out of date with what is happening in the tile industry.
> 
> I don't know how many "traditional" shower pans you have ripped out but let me assure you, there are better ways to build a shower base.
> 
> Do yourself a favor and look into Schluter Kerdi.


The Tile Industry is not where shower pans are regulated, it is in the Plumbing code, because it is part of the plumbing system.

Tile does have standards for how it is installed but it is not inspected other than maybe a quick glance at final, if the job is unique like many of the ones I do, the inspector may take a closer look, just because he doesn't see much more than cookie cutter work everyday.

I looked briefly into the Schluter Kerdi sytem, it looks like they could be used in conjunction with the approved pan materials, per FBC Plumbing.

Using sloped dry pack mud under the pan and then installing a pan and then another dry pack mud on top of it is not a bad method of installing a shower, it works well, it does take a semi skilled craftsman to be able to do it properly.

Shower pans do not stop walls from rotting due to poor material choices or bad installation practices, it is part of the drain system.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

bwalley said:


> The Tile Industry is not where shower pans are regulated, it is in the Plumbing code, because it is part of the plumbing system.
> 
> Tile does have standards for how it is installed but it is not inspected other than maybe a quick glance at final, if the job is unique like many of the ones I do, the inspector may take a closer look, just because he doesn't see much more than cookie cutter work everyday.
> 
> ...


 
You obviously DID NOT look at Schluter as you do not use your "so-called" approved pan materials.

While I will agree that the traditional way of constructing shower pans is ACCEPTABLE, there is NO comparison between that and Kerdi.

If you look closely at how Kerdi is installed (together with Kerdi Drain), the entire shower area is 100% waterproofed before it is tiled. 

Florida codes are certainly correct in stating a pre-slope must be installed, however, this does not stop saturation of the top mortar bed. Plus, many installations using a traditional shower base ARE part of the reason lower walls fail (when installed with MR drywall that is). Moisture will wick from the saturated mortar bed into the drywall.

Ask Bill or Bud who definately know their stuff, they will (I believe) tell you the same thing.

Finally, as most builders and renovators know, building codes are, in most cases, a minimun standard. Canada and more specifically Ontario have a very good code system, however, in a lot of cases, following their minimum requirements is not the best way to do things.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

jarvis design said:


> You obviously DID NOT look at Schluter as you do not use your "so-called" approved pan materials.
> 
> While I will agree that the traditional way of constructing shower pans is ACCEPTABLE, there is NO comparison between that and Kerdi.
> 
> ...


How would the Schluter Kerdi system here, I think it meet's the FBC Plumbing requirement for a pan system. http://www.schluter.com/8_3_kerdi_st_sc_sr.aspx

have stopped the situation mentioned here? #*9* 

The pan system does not and can not stop rot like mentioned in the above post, the pan is for when the tile allows water to seep through, so it is caught and diverted into the shower drain.

Tile setters are licensed as a specialty in Florida if it is not being done by a Division 1 contractor, there are no requirements for permitting of tile work or inspections of tile work.

the shower pan is installed by the plumber and inspected by the Plumbing inspector usually before the tile setter is on the job.

I am a Division 1 Contractor, Certified Building Contractor and a Division 2 Contractor, Certified A/C Contractor, Plumbing is also a Division 2 Contractor.

Again, the shower pan is part of the drain, that is why it is in the Plumbing code, to do plumbing work, you have to be a licensed plumber, or work for a licensed plumber.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

bwalley said:


> How would the Schluter Kerdi system here, I think it meet's the FBC Plumbing requirement for a pan system. http://www.schluter.com/8_3_kerdi_st_sc_sr.aspx
> 
> have stopped the situation mentioned here? #*9*
> 
> ...


 
If you would have read my earlier post, you would see how the Schluter system would have prevented the noted situation by waterproofing the entire assemlby before tile is applied. How does water get through a waterproof membrane exactly??

You can tell me the pan is part of the plumbing system all you want, and maybe in your neck of the woods you are correct. 

That does not mean it makes any sense!! or that it is the best way to do things.

Finally, it is apparent that you are stuck in your ways and I wish you good luck!!


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## flach (Jan 16, 2009)

*Wedi system*

Have you ever heard of this system?
It is so easy to install! It is totally waterproof if done right.
I did one last summer, the tilesetter & customer loved it.
I can't post the website yet because I am new to this forum.
Just google Wedi.

Tom


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## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

Lead pans are still code here, guess in new construction and remodels requiring a permit.

For residential remodels no permits required, never seen the tile police either:laughing:so I'll use the Kerdi system every time, there is NO better system out there right now, NONE.:thumbup:


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## Forry (Feb 12, 2007)

use the Kerdi system every time, there is NO better system out there right now, NONE.:thumbup:[/quote]



Agreed.:thumbsup:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Ceramictec said:


> guess you never ripped out a Florida recessed shower.
> for the longest time builders were recessing the slab with no liners.
> there thought was that the water would just escape out under the home.
> well Schluter and the area reps have been pushing for new plumbing codes
> ...


This one wasn't so great...


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

angus242 said:


> This one wasn't so great...


 
Wow, their is so much wrong with that job!! Not only is all the tile prep work crap, whoever did the plumbing connected old galvanized to new copper- big no-no. 

Angus, do you have some after photos - its always nice to see how a pro fixes an abomination like that!!


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

jarvis design said:


> Wow, their is so much wrong with that job!! Not only is all the tile prep work crap, whoever did the plumbing connected old galvanized to new copper- big no-no.
> 
> Angus, do you have some after photos - its always nice to see how a pro fixes an abomination like that!!


After photos coming. Shower glass was just installed last week.

That was just the tip of all that was wrong. The electrical was nasty too. Instead of using short radius bends in the conduit, they just eliminated conduit altogether anywhere there was a 90°; just bare wire . There were about 15 items on the circuit (laundry, etc).
No vent for the plumbing. It went on and on.

Overall, for how bad it was and the budget we had to work with, I think it turned out pretty well. 

Here's an in progress photo:


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Looks good so far!! Talking of electrical, I just finished my own downstairs bathroom (which is small), after gutting I found 4 hidden junction boxes!!

It never ceases to amaze me how some people work!!


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## JTW (Jan 22, 2009)

So we just had a custom shower done imn our new house(remodel) soundslike you guys are telling me it is destined to fail. My plumber refused to lay the liner(did not want the liability, the tile guy always does that, sure!!!). Tile mason says he has no problem doing it. Install as followed it is below.
Stringers are 16" on center, I dropped an LVL under the shower area to pick up the extra load of the marble, tub etc. 5/8 plywood was in good shape, I added a 2nd sheet. 2 piece drain installed, Liner was layed over the plywood, up and over entrance curb of the shower, 10" up 3 walls of shower,liner rolls into drain, pan was packed sloped and cured for 3 days, pebbele tiles installed in thin set, grouted with sanded grout, curb capped with granite threshhold. 

If I read the post correctly, the subfloor underneath will rot?? Any guesses on timing, we are in New Hampshire and have a full basement. If this is true it is quite disturbing as all the guys who bid it were saying that is how they would all do it!!!!!!


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## Forry (Feb 12, 2007)

If the liner was installed correctly, your subfloor probably won't be a problem. The problem will be the lack of preslope prior to the liner being installed. While the installation you described is code in most locations, you'll end up with moisture hanging out (puddling) on top of the membrane, causing mildew in the pan. over time this may cause unpleasant odors, discolored grout, and possible mortar failure in the pan.

If it was me, I'd probably live with it, but take precautions. 

Make sure you have a _really_ good vent fan. 

Leave the fan on untill the room is dry after showering ( a timer works well)

Good heat/insulation?

Squeegie the shower after use. This'll help it dry faster.

If you're thoughtful, your shower will probably last a good long time.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

JTW said:


> So we just had a custom shower done imn our new house(remodel) soundslike you guys are telling me it is destined to fail. My plumber refused to lay the liner(did not want the liability, the tile guy always does that, sure!!!). Tile mason says he has no problem doing it. Install as followed it is below.
> Stringers are 16" on center, I dropped an LVL under the shower area to pick up the extra load of the marble, tub etc. 5/8 plywood was in good shape, I added a 2nd sheet. 2 piece drain installed, Liner was layed over the plywood, up and over entrance curb of the shower, 10" up 3 walls of shower,liner rolls into drain, pan was packed sloped and cured for 3 days, pebbele tiles installed in thin set, grouted with sanded grout, curb capped with granite threshhold.
> 
> If I read the post correctly, the subfloor underneath will rot?? Any guesses on timing, we are in New Hampshire and have a full basement. If this is true it is quite disturbing as all the guys who bid it were saying that is how they would all do it!!!!!!


 
As mentioned, as long as the liner doesn't leak, your floor should not rot, however, I just don't understand why some people who do this kind of work don't look into what is available today. 

Your mortar bed will become saturated with moisture which leads to mould. That is a given, unfortunately.

Had your installer used Schluter Kerdi, you would have a shower that would last a "lifetime". Add to that epoxy grout and you would have a shower that would last a lifetime and that was remarkably easy to keep clean and looking good.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

jarvis design said:


> As mentioned, as long as the liner doesn't leak, your floor should not rot, however, I just don't understand why some people who do this kind of work don't look into what is available today.
> 
> Your mortar bed will become saturated with moisture which leads to mould. That is a given, unfortunately.
> 
> Had your installer used Schluter Kerdi, you would have a shower that would last a "lifetime". Add to that epoxy grout and you would have a shower that would last a lifetime and that was remarkably easy to keep clean and looking good.



Jarvis how long have you been using the Kerdi system?


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Rory I have been using kerdi for about 2 years now and love the system, easy to install and bombproof when done.


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