# ICF guys. Need some tips!



## black95gt (Nov 25, 2012)

I am starting my first ICF Basement, 1350sf w/6 corners here in about 3 weeks using the Liteform brand, which is based out of my hometown and the location of this new build. Beleive it or not, but it is going to be a tad bit cheaper to do the footings, form and place the basement walls and waterproof them as it was going to cost a foundation contractor to come in and pan form the walls. I have long been interested in doing ICF and am finally going to do it! I will be doing a 1/2 day training at the manufacturer prior to starting and have on site support to help me with questions or problems that I run into.

I have no worries about getting this squared, leveled and set to the right dimensions. I will brace it as recommended by LiteForm, but I worry about what the movement walking on the scaffolding and the movement that will take place while placing the concrete. Has anyone had issues with the foundation going out of square after placement?

Other than time, would there be any reason to have more than 2 people toset this up and place it? I dont see an issue with seting it up with 2 people, and when i place it, i will run the pump chute and the other will vibrate and be checking it for blowouts. I am not seeing the need for a 3rd hand but maybe im overlooking something.

For the seasoned ICF'ers, are there any tips or tricks that you have learned from experience that the manufacturer wont tell me? For waterproofing, should I use the manufacturer applied membrane($750), or use a spray on application. Any advice is appreciated.


----------



## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

Congrats - as for a third hand, it is always nice to have to go grab something / keep an eye out / signal the operator, etc...
You recheck, re plumb & lock down your braces at the end until it fully sets


----------



## Jackpine Savage (Dec 27, 2010)

black95gt said:


> I am starting my first ICF Basement, 1350sf w/6 corners here in about 3 weeks using the Liteform brand, which is based out of my hometown and the location of this new build. Beleive it or not, but it is going to be a tad bit cheaper to do the footings, form and place the basement walls and waterproof them as it was going to cost a foundation contractor to come in and pan form the walls. I have long been interested in doing ICF and am finally going to do it! I will be doing a 1/2 day training at the manufacturer prior to starting and have on site support to help me with questions or problems that I run into.
> 
> I have no worries about getting this squared, leveled and set to the right dimensions. I will brace it as recommended by LiteForm, but I worry about what the movement walking on the scaffolding and the movement that will take place while placing the concrete. Has anyone had issues with the foundation going out of square after placement?
> 
> ...


I'm by no means an "ICF guy"; just a carpenter who has done maybe a half dozen ICF foundations. It's been a few years now. Being the guy who also has to frame on the thing, I learned a few tricks.

One thing I've learned is to go beyond the manufacturer's recommended bracing. I put a strongback (2 2x6's nailed into an L) on either side of the top, and string and square that. This is in addition to the vertical bracing. That's the only way I've prevented a somewhat wavy foundation. 

Another trick is to shoot the top of the concrete for level AFTER the pour as the weight of the concrete hitting the webs will tend to settle the forms a bit. 

Good luck.


----------



## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Jackpine Savage said:


> Another trick is to shoot the top of the concrete for level AFTER the pour as the weight of the concrete hitting the webs will tend to settle the forms a bit.


So what do you do if it's not level after you pour.


----------



## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

You better rethink how many hands you may need. All it would take is one blowout or bulge, and you will be pretty busy. We have 4 guys on site for every pour, every time. We have suffered one block failure resulting in maybe half a yard of concrete having to be shoveled. And.....my job during the placement is a constant check of plumb and alignment of the walls, pacing with the pour on top. 

Take my advice seriously. :thumbsup:


----------



## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

I've been on a few ICF pours, and I certainly agree with Joasis. Don't count how many guys you need when everything goes perfect, figure what you'll need if things go wrong.

As for the price, are you saying ICF is cheaper if you don't include the labor vs. a turn-key poured wall?

The reason I ask is because the aluminum form crews here smoke everyone else when it comes to price/efficiency/speed........


----------



## Jackpine Savage (Dec 27, 2010)

jlsconstruction said:


> So what do you do if it's not level after you pour.


Try to get the concrete level. You can always trim the ICF.


----------



## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Jackpine Savage said:


> Try to get the concrete level. You can always trim the ICF.


Must be a pain in the ass


----------



## black95gt (Nov 25, 2012)

Jackpine Savage said:


> I'm by no means an "ICF guy"; just a carpenter who has done maybe a half dozen ICF foundations. It's been a few years now. Being the guy who also has to frame on the thing, I learned a few tricks.
> 
> One thing I've learned is to go beyond the manufacturer's recommended bracing. I put a strongback (2 2x6's nailed into an L) on either side of the top, and string and square that. This is in addition to the vertical bracing. That's the only way I've prevented a somewhat wavy foundation.
> 
> ...


I know Liteform anticipates the forms to settle 1/2" due to the weight of the concrete, so I do know to anticipate that. 

For the L-Shape Strongback, where do you put that at? Im guessing you do it on the outside and inside corners and secure it to either side of the ICF Foam? I have seen some people who use sheets of OSB/Plywood on corners, but have heard its overkill and not warranted. Lite form requires a 2x4 to be nailed into the footing at the corners to provide bracing at those points.

My Liteform Rep has spec'd out 32 braces that I will be renting from them. Maybe as an incentive I will see if they will throw in 4-8 extra braces at no extra charge for precautionary measures and peace of mind.


----------



## black95gt (Nov 25, 2012)

jomama said:


> I've been on a few ICF pours, and I certainly agree with Joasis. Don't count how many guys you need when everything goes perfect, figure what you'll need if things go wrong.
> 
> As for the price, are you saying ICF is cheaper if you don't include the labor vs. a turn-key poured wall?
> 
> The reason I ask is because the aluminum form crews here smoke everyone else when it comes to price/efficiency/speed........


Your right, It will be best to have a 3rd guy. I can have my recently retired dad (Land Surveyor and Construction Inspector) be there on standby if needed and can be an asset with with checking and leveling forms. Could also run the chute if needed.

By the time I figured footings, footing forms, ICF forms, concrete, rebar, window bulkheads and wells, and waterproofing, I am about $2300 under the cheapest and best pan forming company that I got a bid from. I have $2300 leftover to pay for for wages, which I have 3 days figured for. 1 day for footings, 1.5 days to do the liteform and bracing and 1/2 day to place concrete.


----------



## black95gt (Nov 25, 2012)

Joasis said:


> You better rethink how many hands you may need. All it would take is one blowout or bulge, and you will be pretty busy. We have 4 guys on site for every pour, every time. We have suffered one block failure resulting in maybe half a yard of concrete having to be shoveled. And.....my job during the placement is a constant check of plumb and alignment of the walls, pacing with the pour on top.
> 
> Take my advice seriously. :thumbsup:


Thanks Joasis! I might go ahead and reconsider running the concrete nozzle and have my helper do it. I will probably be a nervous mess during this initially and always be wanting to check for alignment.

Im not overly concerned about blowouts, but noneless, I do think about it. Are there any tips to avoid a blowout besides overloading with concrete? Liteform recommends placing in 4' lifts. I was thinking maybe 3' lifts


----------



## Jackpine Savage (Dec 27, 2010)

black95gt said:


> I know Liteform anticipates the forms to settle 1/2" due to the weight of the concrete, so I do know to anticipate that.
> 
> For the L-Shape Strongback, where do you put that at? Im guessing you do it on the outside and inside corners and secure it to either side of the ICF Foam? I have seen some people who use sheets of OSB/Plywood on corners, but have heard its overkill and not warranted. Lite form requires a 2x4 to be nailed into the footing at the corners to provide bracing at those points.
> 
> My Liteform Rep has spec'd out 32 braces that I will be renting from them. Maybe as an incentive I will see if they will throw in 4-8 extra braces at no extra charge for precautionary measures and peace of mind.


The strongbacks I'm talking about run on either side of the top of the form around the perimeter. I also add some cross ties between them. It's not to prevent blowouts; it's there to straighten the top of the wall.

Also, I forgot to say that be aware that yes you can adjust your braces after the pour as someone else said, but you can only push with them. You can't pull a wall back once it is leaning out. 

What does Liteform say about consolidation? I've used Logix mostly, and they recommend having guys thump the walls with chunks of 2x4's; no vibrator is recommended.

I've never had a blowout. My biggest adventure was pouring in a freak lake effect snowstorm that dumped a foot on us while we were pouring. Got a concrete truck stuck on a steep hill, and he was so full he dumped a 1/2 yard out of the truck and I wound up short. Finished the day scraping up concrete from where the pumper had primed. That was a day to remember, but it turned out fine.


----------



## black95gt (Nov 25, 2012)

Jackpine Savage said:


> The strongbacks I'm talking about run on either side of the top of the form around the perimeter. I also add some cross ties between them. It's not to prevent blowouts; it's there to straighten the top of the wall.
> 
> Also, I forgot to say that be aware that yes you can adjust your braces after the pour as someone else said, but you can only push with them. You can't pull a wall back once it is leaning out.
> 
> ...


does the strongbacks on top really do anything do you think? It kind of seems like overkill and dont see how it would really do much. Also havent seen anybody do this before.

Liteform recomends using a drill for consolidation. I think a good method would be to use a sawzall without a blade. Just put the foot on the forms give it a couple of second burst and should be good. This is the method i plan on, upon approval from the Liteform rep. I dont know if they frown on the use of a stinger or not. I could see that being a blowout issue, especially at the splices.


----------



## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

If this is your first build with ICF I would allow 4 days for you build of ICF only based on your footprint. 

You must consolidate/vibrate your walls no matter what anyone tells you, if you think pouring without vibrating or just hitting the outside works I got bad news for you...you will have voids.

Find someone to rent proper ICF bracing from, do not use Mickey Mouse homemade bracing/scaffold you will have an issue.

If in doubt, ask the on site rep. This is a concrete wall, once it's poured you own it. Common sense should prevail, a lot if times these on site support reps are not ICF guys, just guys who read the book and took the course before you, they're not smarter then you just did what you did before you. If it doesn't make sense to you, chances are it's not right...we are here online, so post pics and those of us can look and advise you probably better then manufacturer support.

Just remember. You have all the time in the world to build this thing...but only one shot to pour it. Do not rush your pour, if you need to delay it for a day or so, please do so.

Check out aquasealusa.com I have been using their Eco-flex waterproofing for sometime now, we roll it in 2 coats, faster and cheaper cost then typical peel and stick from the manufacturer 

Oh ya, your 1/2 compression sounds excessive, but I have seen it before. By some cheap 1x materials and screw it to the perimeter about 1/2" higher then the forms, use your laser to set it. Use this as a screed edge, check with your laser as your pour, adjust as necessary and the thermal break is so minimal don't worry about it, just keep this job straight, plumb and level


----------



## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

The braceing LiteForm suggests isn't enough the corners will bulge. There is a reason why they are the cheapest ICF block. Here is my corner brace solution for liteforms. Like joasis I square and plumb as my guys pour. That way I "know" it is right. It will move a little why pouring.


----------



## Jackpine Savage (Dec 27, 2010)

black95gt said:


> does the strongbacks on top really do anything do you think? It kind of seems like overkill and dont see how it would really do much. Also havent seen anybody do this before.
> 
> Liteform recomends using a drill for consolidation. I think a good method would be to use a sawzall without a blade. Just put the foot on the forms give it a couple of second burst and should be good. This is the method i plan on, upon approval from the Liteform rep. I dont know if they frown on the use of a stinger or not. I could see that being a blowout issue, especially at the splices.


Keeps the wall straight. I've built on ICF's done by concrete guys and others done by me, and one complaint I have about ICF's is they do not lend themselves to a very true foundation.


----------



## black95gt (Nov 25, 2012)

Cole82 said:


> The braceing LiteForm suggests isn't enough the corners will bulge. There is a reason why they are the cheapest ICF block. Here is my corner brace solution for liteforms. Like joasis I square and plumb as my guys pour. That way I "know" it is right. It will move a little why pouring.


I dont know anyone that uses another brand around Sioux City, but Liteform is made here so we buy it straight from Liteform. 

What reasons will the corners for liteform need to be braced moreso over the next brand? I guess I dont see much difference as to why they would need to be.

Is adjusting theses during the pour going very difficult? What happens if you need to adjust it inward?


----------



## black95gt (Nov 25, 2012)

Jackpine Savage said:


> Keeps the wall straight. I've built on ICF's done by concrete guys and others done by me, and one complaint I have about ICF's is they do not lend themselves to a very true foundation.


I seen a youtube video with this done. I guess i can see where it would help keep the tops straight


----------



## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

black95gt said:


> I dont know anyone that uses another brand around Sioux City, but Liteform is made here so we buy it straight from Liteform.
> 
> What reasons will the corners for liteform need to be braced moreso over the next brand? I guess I dont see much difference as to why they would need to be.
> 
> Is adjusting theses during the pour going very difficult? What happens if you need to adjust it inward?


Liteform blocks are not as heavy, or have the structure of many other blocks. If you chose to ignore this little bit of advice, you will know why later. :thumbsup: Some of us do this for a living, and we know of what we speak. Experience is the greatest education of them all. 

That said, we vibrate with a pad on the side of the blocks when needed, and touch the steel from the top usually, which with the right mix, consolidates the concrete nicely without adding unnecessary pressure by over vibrating down in the form. 

It is out experience that straight walls are the result of careful bracing and adjusting the walls during the pour as needed. 1/2 inch "wave" in 70 feet is decent. Like Chris, I have never witnessed a block settling 1/2 of an inch....with BuildBlock, that I use, I doubt you will find 1/8, and that would be compression where the blocks were not fully nested. 

And.....if you look at a wall before you poor, and wonder if you need more bracing, then by all means, install it. It is pretty tough to install bracing after a wall racks out of plumb, and you will have a hell of a time "pushing" concrete into level.


----------



## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

black95gt said:


> I dont know anyone that uses another brand around Sioux City, but Liteform is made here so we buy it straight from Liteform.
> 
> What reasons will the corners for liteform need to be braced moreso over the next brand? I guess I dont see much difference as to why they would need to be.
> 
> Is adjusting theses during the pour going very difficult? What happens if you need to adjust it inward?


Just like Joasis said they are a weaker less dense foam. The main down fall are the corner black create a continuous vertical seam on both sides of the corner. This is the week point you will see that gap expand when you pour.

The icf that I prefer is Fox blocks there corners over lap each other so there is no continuous seam as they alternate each other.

Next project I want to try BuildBlocks as I have not heard a single bad thing about them.

Cole


----------

