# Limestone retaining "on edge"



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Did the stone have any backing (block of some sort that it was tied to) or was it just a 4" thick wall? It's common enough to lay up 4" material but if it has no backing material it's useless

Also i didn't clue in to your location either but indiana limestone is a "clear" stone, meaning that it generally has no bedding plane and can be bedded in any orientation..one of the reasons it's so great for ornamentation (although perhap it's only the "fine" grade that's considered clear)


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

No, the wall built on edge im talking about was not a facade or bedded over block, its 4-6" thick stones stacked on their narrow, long ends.

So this wall is doing the actual retaining of soil (very expansive clay here)


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

it doesn't matter how the stone is laid...a 4-6" masonry wall can't hold back more than say a foot of soil. 

Think of it this way...if they took those stones and cut them in half or in 3 heightways (I know it isn't a word) so that there were multiple stones rather than just 1 stone the stones would be laid properly (longer and deeper than they are high) but the wall would still fail

Masonry walls build their strength exponentially. a single wythe wall (4" thick) can be about 2' tall and still be structural (although it's shouldn't be holding back soil), a double wythe wall (8") can support 8' (or more) and a triple wythe wall can support 40' and often more (all this depends obviously on what the floor system holds) all these numbers are approximate..


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Yeah, i guess the issue is more one of thickness rather than stone orientation. 

I see a lot of mediocre masonry out there, and i think a lot of clients dont know the difference.

I also see lots of great stuff. I really respect the masons trade, its something id love to learn more about and get more experience with


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Too many 'masons" are bricklayers that do little but put up masonry siding with no real knowledge of it's structural capacities


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

In their defense brick isnt the best masonry material for anything structural. Brick is best served both cost wise and effectively to be the veneer, or the cheerleader of the structure.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I don't know...brick (or stone) as a structural material has a pedigree thousands of years old. It can take all the compression you can throw at it, but it needs bulk for lateral strength

Costwise i agree though, but it acts the same as block. An 8" block wall can be built way more than 2x as tall as a 4" block wall


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

The stuff that is thousands of years old is built with lime. Stuff that is a hundred years old is struggling to stay fresh in northern climates.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I agree 100%, but whether built with lime or with type N or S or M the thickness of the wall is still very important. Unlike a wood wall the thickness of a masonry wall is much more crucial to how high the wall can be built.


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Thickness of the wall and batter seem to be most crucial. 

If stones are arranged properly and working with gravity, they seem to stand much longer than those dependent on mortar


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

JBM said:


> The stuff that is thousands of years old is built with lime. Stuff that is a hundred years old is struggling to stay fresh in northern climates.


So if we went back to buildilng with lime mortar would you still say " brick isnt the best masonry material for anything structural." ? 

And is that mainly due to cost considerations? or freeze cycles?

(and this is an innocent question.)


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

dielectricunion;210489
If stones are arranged properly and working with gravity said:


> Astute observation.:thumbsup:If one was to read various masonry books (especially The Art Of The Stonemason by Ian Cramb) your observation would be depicted in various drawings and copy. Mr Cramb points out,stone should be laid to "allow" gravity to do the work I.E stone should be laid to "slide" into the center of the wall not out.
> 
> Reading his book will paint the proper word picture.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> I agree 100%, but whether built with lime or with type N or S or M the thickness of the wall is still very important. Unlike a wood wall the thickness of a masonry wall is much more crucial to how high the wall can be built.





I very much agree. If memory serves,the various masonry wall types have their own width to height ratios. With that said,a good empirical rule of thumb is 16 x the wall width in height is max. before the wall must be intersected with a floor or roof to form the building diaphragm. Of course we are talking non re-enforced masonry here.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Fundi said:


> So if we went back to buildilng with lime mortar would you still say " brick isnt the best masonry material for anything structural." ?
> 
> And is that mainly due to cost considerations? or freeze cycles?
> 
> (and this is an innocent question.)


I dunno. If we did masonry foundations with a concrete footing im not sure if a lime masonry unit would work very well on that. 

If we built chimneys and fireplaces out of lime would they last longer? Thats a real good question. I would be willing to say yes. 

When developers blast ledge up here there are numerous instances of it cracking chimneys and foundations. May not happen with lime. Very well may though. 

People used "really big rocks" a lot more back then too. I would just shrug if someone wanted to use 2 ton rocks on whatever. What am i supposed to do with that lol!

From living up here there is this mentality almost that if water drips on masonry its doomed to be a repair issue eventually. Seems messed up from my POV as I drive around some of the old buildings we have here in New England. 

The more I think about this the more I think were doing it wrong. Rigid brick panels dependent on control joints, expansion goop, flashing, weep holes, spray crap, on and on all to keep it dry as possible and to maintain control of the brittleness of the units.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

JBM said:


> The more I think about this the more I think were doing it wrong. Rigid brick panels dependent on control joints, expansion goop, flashing, weep holes, spray crap, on and on all to keep it dry as possible and to maintain control of the brittleness of the units.



:thumbsup:


I tend to agree,statistics prove we as a Nation are treating masonry as window dressing as opposed to letting it do real work (hold up floors and roofs). In the 1950.s, we as a Nation burned and consumed 15 billion bricks a year. By the 1990,s we burned and consumed dead at half that volume,7.5 billion brick. What really throws salt on the wound,the the population increased from 116 million to nearly 300 million by the turn of the last century.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

JBM said:


> If we built chimneys and fireplaces out of lime would they last longer? Thats a real good question. I would be willing to say yes.
> 
> 
> 
> The more I think about this the more I think were doing it wrong. Rigid brick panels dependent on control joints, expansion goop, flashing, weep holes, spray crap, on and on all to keep it dry as possible and to maintain control of the brittleness of the units.


I don't do as many chimneys a year as you do but I do anywhere from 5 to 10...Many that i do are chimneys that are pushing 100 years old if not older and are being repaired for the first time. The others that i repair are 50 years old and sometimes less...I've repaired some built in the '90's and late '80's. Stuck up in the air with no roof overhang to protect them all those freeze thaw cycles from being used sporadically in the winter, they get the wort abuse of any other masonry on a house, yet the ones built with soft brick and lime mortar out perform the modern ones. I've been sold on lime from the get go. 

Plus the fact that the old houses I open up that are balloon framed behind the brick all have air spaces and sheathing as dry as a thanksgiving turkey despite having no weepholes but newer houses from the 60's on sometimes have rot or mold....



I refuse to coat any masonry work that I install unless it's indoors


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> I don't do as many chimneys a year as you do but I do anywhere from 5 to 10...Many that i do are chimneys that are pushing 100 years old if not older and are being repaired for the first time. The others that i repair are 50 years old and sometimes less...I've repaired some built in the '90's and late '80's. Stuck up in the air with no roof overhang to protect them all those freeze thaw cycles from being used sporadically in the winter, they get the wort abuse of any other masonry on a house, yet the ones built with soft brick and lime mortar out perform the modern ones. I've been sold on lime from the get go. Plus the fact that the old houses I open up that are balloon framed behind the brick all have air spaces and sheathing as dry as a thanksgiving turkey despite having no weepholes but newer houses from the 60's on sometimes have rot or mold.... I refuse to coat any masonry work that I install unless it's indoors


On top of all that youve said, add to that the smoke and gasses through all the years of different heating systems and the moist, acidic condensate from newer gas appliances. That seems to wreak havoc on improperly lined and maintained masonry.

A neighboring building just had their roof redone and at the beautiful limestone chimney, they "flashed" it with a freakin vinyl plastic material thats all hacked up and seems to be glued down to the stone!!

Cant these jagoffs do proper counterflashing?? I see this trash everywhere, how are the property owners happy when they see that pool liner glued up there?


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

And did i mention its white!


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Many of the older chimneys that i work on are deteriorated ONLY because a gas appliance is vented into it without a liner or the liner has deteriorated and the acidic gases are destroying the chimney from the inside out. Luckily the gases are only acidic when the condensate..ie leave the warmth of the attic (since these old houses rarely have enough attic insulation) so the repair is from the roofline up


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I looked at a massive chimney last year with I think 5 fireplaces in it. The cellar was built right on the earth with very large rocks. Like 5-8' long 18"++ thick. It was from the 1800's and the top had been replaced a few years ago finally. In the attic there was a hairline crack that was a non issue. The cellar had a couple of movement cracks. Other than that I touched up a couple hours worth of mortar in the fireboxes with lime mortar. 

I referred the guy to someone who does balloon liners, he wanted to be able to use the fireplaces!

The wood framing was up tight against the masonry. Probably kept it from shifting, but there wasnt any fire damage, rot or god knows what else the code writers think happens to wood against masonry. 

Not that wood touching masonry is a good idea, but there was a time a few years ago that they wanted wood 4" from the masonry! I even ran into an inspector who wanted the concrete in the hearth area away from the wood!! He told me to put that blue foam crap in the hearth then pour it!!

Were doing it wrong.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Yup...after 4000 years of success the train drivers discovered it doesn't last


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