# What Is The Hardest Sales Objection To Overcome?



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*What Is The Hardest Sales Objection To Overcome?*

*And.....*

*How Do You Or How Should You Handle It?*

Just a thought to inspire a few give and take opinions on real life scenarios we all have met and how we dealt with or did not deal with them.

Ed


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Follow up call after estimate:

Actually, I'm just got the estimate for the insurance company, I'm going to do the work myself.




.


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## Carport King (Jan 7, 2008)

*I Have The Answer Ed!*

Ed this is a simple answer.

THEY DO NOT ASK FOR THE SALE!!

I have seen the best presentations but then they do not ask for the sale. DUH.

This is why so many home improvement companies went to a canned pitch book because it ask for the sale. Go figure?:notworthy


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Ck is right. I never ask. I wait for the client to push the issue and ask if I will accept the job instead. :blink:


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## nlgutters (Dec 18, 2007)

My hardest one is.


I don't want to pay more for a better product. We don't plan on staying here long enough to matter.

?


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

_"The price is too high against the perceived value or what happens if I spend all this money and don’t get value?"_

or..

_"I can buy something else with this, why spend it on your company?"_

Which I come back with: "How can you afford not to hire me?" and I take it from there.

Objections are communications. The customer is showing doubt in your field of expertise. This is your defining moment.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

We want to get more bids!
This one for me takes some work.
Why, did I forget something? 
The homeowner is telling me that my presentation didn't give them a reason to buy at this time, but people are told to get 3 bids. So how do I correctly inform them that they don't need other bids?


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## cadanywhere (Jul 25, 2008)

*Objections *- are just a request for further information, so you just give the customer the information they seek!


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

cadanywhere said:


> *Objections *- are just a request for further information, so you just give the customer the information they seek!


Exactly. They are asking you for further help in the decision making process.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Anybody who buys this house will just end up tearing it down.

(This isn't because the house is a dump, the house is probably a $500,000 house, but they are surrounded by 2 million dollar homes, that were developed as scrapes where somebody buys the existing house, scrapes it off and builds a McMansion on it.)


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## wyoming 1 (May 7, 2008)

My favorite sale is when you walk in the door and the woman of the house has the look of the savior his here and she wants everything and the man of the house is setting on the couch with his arms folded cause he doesn't want anything (or he wants a new bass boat)


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

nlgutters said:


> My hardest one is.
> 
> 
> I don't want to pay more for a better product. We don't plan on staying here long enough to matter.
> ...


That one is probably the closest to the one I was thinking of when I first posted.

I guess it comes down to providing them options of varying values. I ust instill a better faith that my end resultant completed job performance will either bring immediate ROI or enhanced perceived value or ensure, without a doubt that the majesty of our craftsmanship will allow for them to have a much more aesthetic curb appeal.

I hate it when throughout the secretarial phone questions and qualifying process, that the customer fails to reveal such an obvious short term vision for their remodeling enhancement.

Regardless, I still make inroads with those clients occasionally, by allowing them to take in the entire perspective.

So, what I would have stated as my hardest objection to overcome is;
We really would like to use you, but we are not going to be staying here and just want to put a roof on before we put the house up for sale.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

By the way Carport King, I meant which objection from the customer, not an obstacle in acquiring the sale from ineptness of behalf on the sales representatives part.

Ed


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## bob_cntrctr (Jan 30, 2008)

silvertree said:


> We want to get more bids!
> This one for me takes some work.
> Why, did I forget something?
> The homeowner is telling me that my presentation didn't give them a reason to buy at this time, but people are told to get 3 bids. So how do I correctly inform them that they don't need other bids?


Most people will be very suspicious of a trade that tells them not to bother getting any other bids. This sounds like a good recpie for driving clients away.

Much better is to use the opportunity to stack the bidding process in your favour. Give them advice on what they should demand to see in other bids and what qualifications they should require from other contractors, making sure that the list is exactly what you put in your bid and the qualifications are exactly your qualifications.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

I understand Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

That is exactly what I would have thought to do myself if I did not know any better.

What I have learned is that it is not the quantity of bids that makes the decision easier, but the quality and the details included.

Are you satisfied that we have everything that you could have considered covered in our detailed scope of work?

Great!!!

Mrs. Jones felt the exact same way as you do. But, when she checked up on our list of 200 or 2,000 satisfied customers, she realized that we do one thing better than anyone else. 

Would you like to know what she found out?

She saw that our clients were more than 100% satisfied with the entire project on a regular basis. 

Wouldn't you like to be as proud of your remodeling project as Mrs. Jones was?

Here, look at what your neighbors down the street had to say in their own words in this written testimonial.

Would you like to be as satisfied as they were with their decision?

Good. Well, which color would you like to choose?

Would you like to get in on our express schedule or is one month from now more of what you had in mind?

When we are working with you, where would you like us to park for your convenience?

Okay, please sign your acceptance of the color chosen right here and we can guarantee you that time slot.

Yes, either a check or cash would be okay.


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## HandyHank (Sep 18, 2008)

most of the jobs i do are sealed bid, not that much to overcome...comes down to price.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

I use to hate the I am going to get the 3 bid reply but now I embrace it. I am usually the middle to highest bid.

I have overcome the 3 bid reply with very detail estimates and accurate allowances.

When a customer reads my estimate they know exactly what they are getting. 

When the verify or look at selections cabinets, countertops, appliances etc. and match it to my allowance sheet the numbers are usually very close. 

Also certain methods of construction are spelled out, Cement board on floors and walls, fire blocking in framing, inspections on work etc. Stuff that the other guys don't mention but might or might not do, But don't spell it out for the homeowner.

My draw schedule and work schedule are also included. Homeowner's like to see where their money is going and I do lost of payments on my draw schedule, that way I get a check like every week or two cash flow is better for me and the homeowner is more comfortable making the payments and seeing where their money is going and how I am going to earn it.

As long as I follow up I usually get the job with out much convincing. My hardest part is the follow up and or like CK said asking for the job.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

rbsremodeling said:


> When a customer reads my estimate they know exactly what they are getting.
> 
> Stuff that the other guys don't mention but might or might not do, But don't spell it out for the homeowner.


Wonderful observation that bears commenting further on!!!

I stumbled upon that about 10 years ago.

If I am going to be doing something.....Tell Them in Writing and also point it out during the presentation and let them know why it is being done and the consequences if it is not.

That could be something as simple as picking up debris on a daily basis.

Do most contractors do at least a minimum amount of clean up? Probably, but if they don't tell the home owner, that has left that as an open ended assumption that you can pounce on. 

If it is not in writing, it probably isn't going to get done.

Now, the customer has doubts about the other contractors. What else have they left in a clouded content?

Hammer all of your procedures home. Let them know every single task that you do and why. Make them aware of the pitfalls of that not being a part of the scope of work. Now, they are leaning more towards you and the details you have presented.

Ed


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

> When a customer reads my estimate they know exactly what they are getting.


Alright, now Im just confused (more so than usual). I usually write up a detailed scope of work to hand over with an estimate but some say on these forums that I shouldnt... As it's been mentioned, homeowners are always pushed to get several estimates, so it's been suggested that my detailed bid will only be used to shop around for someone cheaper. 

If I get the chance to sit down with the customer and show them the bid, I can usually make the sale. Sometimes, (especially if the job is not close to home) I have to call or email the customer, and I'm not having any success just giving a bottom line number... I've tried it three times in the last month without even getting a callback. 3 detailed bids equals about a full day's worth of phone and office time wasted, and a bunch of subs annoyed that Im pushing them for quotes yet not giving them the work. 

So RB- do you always schedule another face to face appointment to show your detailed bid? And if they dont sign, do you let them keep all the paperwork?


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Splinter said:


> Alright, now Im just confused (more so than usual). I usually write up a detailed scope of work to hand over with an estimate but some say on these forums that I shouldnt... As it's been mentioned, homeowners are always pushed to get several estimates, so it's been suggested that my detailed bid will only be used to shop around for someone cheaper.
> 
> If I get the chance to sit down with the customer and show them the bid, I can usually make the sale. Sometimes, (especially if the job is not close to home) I have to call or email the customer, and I'm not having any success just giving a bottom line number... I've tried it three times in the last month without even getting a callback. 3 detailed bids equals about a full day's worth of phone and office time wasted, and a bunch of subs annoyed that Im pushing them for quotes yet not giving them the work.
> 
> So RB- do you always schedule another face to face appointment to show your detailed bid? And if they dont sign, do you let them keep all the paperwork?



My first estimate is the detailed estimate. I only want to go back to pick up the deposit check or clarify something and pick up the deposit check.

My estimates are so detailed and well prepared (imo of course) along with my personality and RBS is the best speech. That I leave an impression. After I am done, I make a big production of handing them my card and I say when you are ready to start please send me an email.

If I do 5 estimates a week 2 will email back ready to commit and one will need clarification from me to commit. If they email me I know I have them :thumbsup:

My first sit down I make a hell of an impression. Unlike most I do not go back to present my bid/estimate I email them out. That may change in the future but for now it works for me.


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## orson (Nov 23, 2007)

Rory,

Are you doing detailed price breakdowns or just detailed scope of work and detailed allowance numbers?


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

orson said:


> Rory,
> 
> Are you doing detailed price breakdowns or just detailed scope of work and detailed allowance numbers?


Detailed scope of work and allowances, no price breakdowns


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## Snow Man (Aug 18, 2008)

scheduling


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## mark the coach (Aug 11, 2008)

*objections*

One of the most frustrating scenarios is the prospect who says I need to think about it or maybe. They don't say no or yes. They say they like you, your detailed scope of work and your company. Let me sleep on it they say and you know they are hiding the something. You isolate and set aside the price and they say they don't question the price. Just maybe and I need to think about.
So I learned some word tracks from Sandler and the maybes were drastically reduced. I learned and started using the concept of upfont contracting and was amazed at the results.
I started asking people upfront to agree that after I had met their needs and wants with the appropriate solution that at the conclusion of the meeting that we would agree to either move forward (yes) or they would let me know that we are not a fit (no). Either outcome is OK because I take no as graciously as I take yes. Then I would say to the prospect that "we also will agree that maybe or I need to think about is not an acceptable outcome." I then get agreement form the prospect.

I was hesitant at first when I tried this but I soon found that the maybe pile I kept in my office was shrinking. 
How many of us have a huge pile of estimates where we think that there is gold in the pile and we carry it with is and protect with our life. We tell anyone who wants to hear about all the maybes that are going to turn in to contracts. Then a few weeks or months go by and they are still sitting there collecting dust.
When I learned upfront contracting it was like a huge weight was lifted from my shoulders. By asking for agreement on yes or no and not allowing maybe or I want to think about I quickly benefitted by closing the lead at the close.

mark the coach


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## Snow Man (Aug 18, 2008)

mark the coach said:


> One of the most frustrating scenarios is the prospect who says I need to think about it or maybe. They don't say no or yes. They say they like you, your detailed scope of work and your company. Let me sleep on it they say and you know they are hiding the something. You isolate and set aside the price and they say they don't question the price. Just maybe and I need to think about.
> So I learned some word tracks from Sandler and the maybes were drastically reduced. I learned and started using the concept of upfont contracting and was amazed at the results.
> I started asking people upfront to agree that after I had met their needs and wants with the appropriate solution that at the conclusion of the meeting that we would agree to either move forward (yes) or they would let me know that we are not a fit (no). Either outcome is OK because I take no as graciously as I take yes. Then I would say to the prospect that "we also will agree that maybe or I need to think about is not an acceptable outcome." I then get agreement form the prospect.
> 
> ...


very nice coach . it's nice to see very smart folk here .

Like I always say "The buyers are lyers and must be QUALIFIED "


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## Remodel Bud (Aug 13, 2008)

M.........


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## Snow Man (Aug 18, 2008)

very well...................


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

something i deal with alot is," well so and so bid at 40% less than what you priced it at, why are you so expensive" my reply " because thats how much its going to cost to do it correctly, they are doing one of three things 1) they missed some things on the drawing so its not allowed for, their not paying hst or getting permits, or their undercutting so we can tell you the job wont be done to your satisfaction", which is why we 

so what happens about 1/2 way through the job the homeowner calls us and says " we went with the other guy, all the inspections failed" or " the contractor needs more money to complete it and we dont have drywall yet,can you finish the job and how much" the normal response is no because we'll have to tear out everything and redo it, its too hard trying to figure out how to fix what they screwed up


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

I NEVER ask for the sale. Although, I will admit I used to beg and sometimes harrass the potential client. Somewhere along the way I discovered that doing the opposit actually worked much better for me. I realized that my clients were hiring me because:

1. I look and act like somebody they can trust in their home and with their home.
2. My pricing is always mid-level because I continually keep my overhead in check.
3. I didn't stalk them for the sale. Rarely will I even make a follow-up call.

It sounds like instant death I know,but I'm in my 23rd year and that approach works the best for me.

Another thing I started throwing in a few years back is my "free" service. Every estimate I try to figure out a way to say, "Oh, with the amount of work your asking for Mrs. Jones, we'd be happy to throw this in for free for you." Don't remember when I started doing that or if it carries any weight, but I almost always get it in and they always seem shocked by it.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

As far as what is on the bid, I always write a scope of all the work to be performed. What you can expect from us, what we expect you to do.
I no longer do item costs, that always left me explaining why a window 20 feet up over the prize garden cost more than a window at ground level. 
Good thread!


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Splinter said:


> Alright, now Im just confused (more so than usual). I usually write up a detailed scope of work to hand over with an estimate but some say on these forums that I shouldnt... As it's been mentioned, homeowners are always pushed to get several estimates, so it's been suggested that my detailed bid will only be used to shop around for someone cheaper.
> 
> If I get the chance to sit down with the customer and show them the bid, I can usually make the sale. Sometimes, (especially if the job is not close to home) I have to call or email the customer, and I'm not having any success just giving a bottom line number... I've tried it three times in the last month without even getting a callback. 3 detailed bids equals about a full day's worth of phone and office time wasted, and a bunch of subs annoyed that Im pushing them for quotes yet not giving them the work.
> 
> So RB- do you always schedule another face to face appointment to show your detailed bid? And if they dont sign, do you let them keep all the paperwork?


Splinter how large are your projects?? are they kitchen or a bath. Or larger renovations??


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## mark the coach (Aug 11, 2008)

*upfront contracting post*

Thank you snow man and remodel buddy.

mark the coach


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## mark the coach (Aug 11, 2008)

*upfront contracting; stop wasting time*

Originally Posted by *Splinter*  
_Alright, now Im just confused (more so than usual). I usually write up a detailed scope of work to hand over with an estimate but some say on these forums that I shouldnt... As it's been mentioned, homeowners are always pushed to get several estimates, so it's been suggested that my detailed bid will only be used to shop around for someone cheaper. _

_If I get the chance to sit down with the customer and show them the bid, I can usually make the sale. Sometimes, (especially if the job is not close to home) I have to call or email the customer, and I'm not having any success just giving a bottom line number... I've tried it three times in the last month without even getting a callback. 3 detailed bids equals about a full day's worth of phone and office time wasted, and a bunch of subs annoyed that Im pushing them for quotes yet not giving them the work. _

_From mark the coach_

_The concept of upfront contracting is to level the playing field for us, the salesperson and the prospect without wasting alot of time. We need to understand that all buyers at first are liars. Consumers hate to be sold by salesman so they have developed defense mechinisms to protect themselves from being the victim of a sales person. Through bonding and rapport we can help the homeowner drop their defenses._
_In the traditional consumers buying system the consumer tries to get as much information from us as possible without committing to the deal. In the beginning, they always return all calls and e-mails promptly to arrange the appointment. Then they give us some information but not all the facts we really need to help them. Then they ask for as much detail as possible for free. Things like a detailed estimate, designs, our expert solutions and insights. Then if we are like most salespersons we bust our butts to give them a great proposal and they say great job! Then they say we like you, your company and they stroke your ego and then tell you you're great and if you give us a little time to mull it over we will call in a week or two. You leave saying I got that one! A few weeks go by and no phone call. You follow up and phone bank their voice mail and e-mail and no return message. You still carry the deal around with you in your mind like gold but wonder when will it happen. A month goes by, still no return call. Why do they do this to me you ask?_
_By learning how to use upfront contracting agreements you limit the times this happens. You don't waste time with people who want to use and abuse you._
_An example of up front contracting setting an appointment on the phone;_

_Homeowner is John_
_Sales person is Splinter_
_Project is for a kitchen and bath, we are a design build contractor_

_John; ok when can you come out and give is an estimate?_
_Splinter; well before I come out would you like to have a thumbnail sketch of what I will discuss with you when I come out?_
_John; yes_
_Splinter; first I will sit down with you and and any other interested party such as your wife to discuss the project. I am asking that you willl have any concepts or ideas relevant to your project available for our business meeting. Things like plans, products, ideas from other contractors or friends, magazine pictures and so on. Does that make sense?_
_John; yes_
_Splinter; Then they way it usually goes is you will ask me some questions and I will ask you some questions with the intention to understand how I can learn about your needs and wants and how I can match the services we provide to fulfill your needs and wants. In this discussion most homeowners want to talk about their contractor criteria and I will provide information to satisfy that criteria. Does that make sense?_
_John; yes_
_Splinter; then, providing I meet your contractor criteria, and you feel comfortable with me and my firm, we then can discuss your project. Then I will learn about your needs, wants and budgeting for the job and also assess your existing home conditions. After this, if I understand your project needs, wants and budgeting I will suggest some basic concepts and then show you a similar project we have completed in the area to show you how it would look if you hire us for a design/build._
_Dos that make sense John?_
_John; well kind of, want do you mean by design build?_
_Splinter; We are a design build firm and that means if you find we are a fit for the project, and also we find you are a fit for us, then then you can rely on us to take the project from concept to completion. A fit would mean we meet your contractor criteria, meet your needs and wants with the services we show you we can provide and we also are within your set aside budget range. Then you can elect to move forward with a design/build where we will design and build your project within the targeted budget you tell us that lines up with your needs and wants. Does that make sense John?_
_John; OK_
_Splinter; Ok so do you have your calendar handy?_
_John; yes_
_Splinter; Ok we will need approximately 90 minutes of uninterupted time for the business meeting to go over your details. Would you prefer morning or late afternoon?_
_John; late afternoon._
_Splinter; ok wednesday or Thursday at 4?_
_John; Wednesday._
_Splinter; Ok wednesday at 4 for you and your wife._
_John; ok_
_Splinter; John one more thing. Our business meeting will take appoximately 90 minutes. If either you or wife cannot keep the appointment please let me know before hand. Also it is important that you have all ideas and concepts available so that I can truly understand want you want and finally that we will not have any interuptions during the meeting. Does that make sense?_
_John; yes and just to let you know the we will put the kids in the family room to watch a tape they, shouldn't be a problem._
_Splinter; well I understand but may I suggest another time so I don't conflict with the needs of your children? Or may I suggest a babysitter? See, if during our business meeting your children need you, I may get distracted and misinterpret something that is important to meeting your needs and wants. This could lead to miscommunication between us. Does that make sense John? _
_John; yes it does. I will arrange for a sitter._
_Splinter; Great then Wednesday at 4 it is._
_John; see you then_

_I know this post is long but the point is by asking the homeowner to commit to basic logical business meeting etiquette you can control the meeting and command a level playing field. If you act like most salesman and show up with no system of your own then you will default to the traditional consumer buying system and get used._

_hope this helps_

_mark the coach_

_www.thecontractorcoachingpartnership.com_


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

RB- Is it Rory? 

Most of my work is kitchens and baths... Occasionally I get into a larger renovation. 


-Alex


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Splinter said:


> RB- Is it Rory?
> 
> Most of my work is kitchens and baths... Occasionally I get into a larger renovation.
> 
> ...



Yes its Rory. 

Ok I will try to load 2 estimates of mine for comparsion of the same job and get a discussion on it going later.

I will post in a separate thread. I think Ed has a good topic going and good input coming in and don't want to confuse the subject but I think a separate thread about the estimate presentation will help the sales process


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

mark the coach said:


> Originally Posted by *Splinter*
> _Alright, now Im just confused (more so than usual). I usually write up a detailed scope of work to hand over with an estimate but some say on these forums that I shouldnt... As it's been mentioned, homeowners are always pushed to get several estimates, so it's been suggested that my detailed bid will only be used to shop around for someone cheaper. _
> 
> _If I get the chance to sit down with the customer and show them the bid, I can usually make the sale. Sometimes, (especially if the job is not close to home) I have to call or email the customer, and I'm not having any success just giving a bottom line number... I've tried it three times in the last month without even getting a callback. 3 detailed bids equals about a full day's worth of phone and office time wasted, and a bunch of subs annoyed that Im pushing them for quotes yet not giving them the work. _
> ...




A total fantasy is all I can say. Either your customers are all 75 year olds or trailer trash or you're selling windows and siding.

I'd love to hear the 'click' of the lead hanging up when you tried that stuff on an educated customer living in a $800,000 home who has professional career or an executive.

How does all that work as soon as the customer derails it with a common "We have no idea about a budget, that's why we are getting bids" or "We have no idea what we want, that's why we are calling you." or a dozen other real life scenarios.

Don't mean to be harsh, even though that's what it sounds like, but these wonderful scripted pie in the sky scenarios make me roll my eyes.

*Control* in the real world has nothing to do with dictating the terms of a meeting. That's ridiculous.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

> I know this post is long but the point is by asking the homeowner to commit to basic logical business meeting etiquette you can control the meeting and command a level playing field. If you act like most salesman and show up with no system of your own then you will default to the traditional consumer buying system and get used.


Mark,that is fantastic... Thank you for taking the time this morning to help. It's awkward for me still to have conversations like this with potential clients. For so long I only needed to work by word of mouth, so I practically had the sale before I walked in the door. These days I see hacks offering $2995 bathroom rebuilds on Craigslist and I know my phone calls have slowed because of it..


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

> Don't mean to be harsh, even though that's what it sounds like, but these wonderful scripted pie in the sky scenarios make me roll my eyes.



While I dont see a conversation with a homeowner actually playing out exactly as Mark wrote, it does help a schmuck like me understand that I need to change my technique to something a bit more "professional" than the usual "Huh? Bathroom? Umm, sure we can do that."


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Splinter said:


> While I dont see a conversation with a homeowner actually playing out exactly as Mark wrote, it does help a schmuck like me understand that I need to change my technique to something a bit more "professional" than the usual "Huh? Bathroom? Umm, sure we can do that."


I think you are right. I think what we have is examples on the extreme opposite ends of the scale. Mark's is way out there on one end of the extreme and your "Huh? Bathroom? Umm, sure we can do that." is way out on the other.

I accidently started relistening to some old Tom Hopkins sales training CD from the 80s last week and just got blasted with how outdated some of the stuff is now. When you listen to some of it you can't help thinking in terms of your current customers and knowing how out of water some of those old 80s techniques are if applied today.


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## mark the coach (Aug 11, 2008)

*unpaid consulting*



> A total fantasy is all I can say. Either your customers are all 75 year olds or trailer trash or you're selling windows and siding.
> 
> I'd love to hear the 'click' of the lead hanging up when you tried that stuff on an educated customer living in a $800,000 home who has professional career or an executive.
> 
> ...


 
Mike 
Actually this concept works very well at preventing unpaid consulting. It usually prevents homeowners from treating us like we are unimportant. I too, at first was suspect about the approach until I implemented it. My customers were professionals who usually understood that a business meeting for them made sense. People who are only looking to get bids were not people I wanted to work for. 
The work I focus on is kitchens, baths, additions and remodeling. I provided design build services and using the lead carpenter production system. 

The benefit of this approach is to not waste time with homeowners who just want to get bids and use us as an unpaid consultant. They see us as a salesman and unless we show them we are not that way, they will treat us like their perception of a salesman. Most home owners told me they appreciated knowing what to expect and this separates you form the majority of contractors they are talking to. By asking questions and expecting respect for their time and yours, they know they are dealing with a professional and an expert. 
The approach may not be for everyone, however I learned this approach from some of the most successful design/build remodelers in the industry and it works very well. Consumers are used to getting as much information from contractors as possible for free, because they have been allowed to. Why should we give them our advice for free? What if there is a way to politely ask to be treated like the professional that we are, instead of like a salesman? 
Thanks for your straight forward response and I don't take it as harsh, but as another way to look at it.

best regards

mark the coach

www.thecontractingcoachingpartnership.com


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

mark the coach said:


> Mike
> Actually this concept works very well at preventing unpaid consulting. It usually prevents homeowners from treating us like we are unimportant. I too, at first was suspect about the approach until I implemented it. My customers were professionals who usually understood that a business meeting for them made sense. People who are only looking to get bids were not people I wanted to work for.
> The work I focus on is kitchens, baths, additions and remodeling. I provided design build services and using the lead carpenter production system.
> 
> ...


The simple solution to avoid everything you have stated is simply not to do free estimates.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Mike,

I think that is the direction he lays out the roadwork for:

Ed

"Splinter; then, providing I meet your contractor criteria, and you feel comfortable with me and my firm, we then can discuss your project. Then I will learn about your needs, wants and budgeting for the job and also assess your existing home conditions. After this, if I understand your project needs, wants and budgeting I will suggest some basic concepts and then show you a similar project we have completed in the area *to show you how it would look if you hire us for a design/build.
*_Dos that make sense John?_
_John; well kind of, want do you mean by design build?_
_Splinter; We are a design build firm and that means if you find we are a fit for the project, and also we find you are a fit for us, *then then you can rely on us to take the project from concept to completion.* A fit would mean we meet your contractor criteria, meet your needs and wants with the services we show you we can provide and we also are within your set aside budget range. Then *you can elect to move forward with a design/build where we will design and build your project within the targeted budget you tell us that lines up with your needs and wants.* Does that make sense John?"_


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Well, I guess I don't see it as that, cause if you aren't giving a free estimate it means at the time of the lead calling you they are informed they will be paying you a fee to meet with you. That is what I am referring to in regard to Mark's reply about his approach. All that over bearingness and domination of control simply isn't even an issue if the whole reason to do it is to qualify a customer who won't waste your time as he said. 

It's actually 2 issues, I beleive Mark's method is to not avoid a time wasting client, but directed at a one visit close. By getting a lead to agree or commit to buying from you immediately at the first meeting if he meets their needs. 

This to me is totally different then what I am saying, however I can see the connection. 

Simply not doing free estimates takes care of his secondary issues of time being wasted on miss-matched leads who aren't your true target, it has nothing to do with the control and dominatation issues associated with trying to get a customer to commit to a one visit close.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Ahhhh, I do see your point Mike, but he isn't throwing away 50% of the potential customers by "Disqualifying" them right off the bat, either.

I am not saying that you are, but would you agree that there probably are *some* candidates out there that you could have sold on the first meeting if you didn't disqualify them?

Ed


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Yes, absolutely. Statistically there are aberations. But what I've always said is that in business you cannot be successful structuring your business's marketing efforts trying to cater to the statistical acception to the rule. For example there is somebody that probably would buy from you a purple and poke-a-dot colored roofing shingle. However never in a million years would you spend the money on 50,000 unit post card mailing featuring a roor with a purple and poke-a-dot colored roof. Instead you are going to show a house with a typical roof of your typical customer in order to cast a wide net to pull in as many fish as possible.

One of the largest jobs we ever did we got from a service directory ad we ran. A total statistical abberation. The average job pulled out of ads like that for example probably hit at a $3000.00 sale. That exception to the rule came in at over $50,000. However as a company we no longer advertise there, because the drain on the company is too great both financially, mentally and resource wise to deal with the 200 leads that don't fit our company properly to land 1 that was the exact opposite.

So does chaging for estimates eliminate some customers who would have hired us and been perfect matches and great jobs but we miss the opportunity because of not doing a free estimate?

Yes, absolutely. However, when you run the numbers and see the advantages of what you have gained far out weighs what you have lost, then the decision is quite clear. Charging for estimates causes us to miss an exception here and there, but it also ensures we miss all the price shoppers and time wasters and 'just wonders' too. And most importantly it means that what we aren't missing is the customers who do see value in our company and see value in paying for a professionals time and expertese. 

We wouldn't have landed the price shoppers, time wasters and just wonders anyways, nor would we want to. We would land the customers we do land now who do see the value of paying for esimates.

The difference is we now get to spend our limited time dealing with the right customers in the first place.

** A side note on all this. This system works much better if have more leads then time, which has always been the case for us. When you have limited resources, quality is always more profitable than quantity. 

** If you are a company with 4 sales people this system doesn't make as much sense, because you have salespeople who need their time filled and you have resources to allocate to land the exceptions.


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## mark the coach (Aug 11, 2008)

*the design build approach versus free estimates*

Great responses Ed and Mike.

In the design/build approach free estimates are not provided only budget ranges. The only way to give a fixed price on a remodel project is to know all the selections and level of finishes that the owner will approve. This is very hard without a design and product selection involving the homeowner and trades. Of course we can try to use allowances to approximate the cost of items, but allowances can get messy. In design/build, we try very hard to understand the owner's preferences and investment level they are comfortable with. If we give them a fixed number without knowing all there preferred products, and assume that we know what is best for them, we can run into unrealized expectations. The goal with design build is to be hired to handle all the phases of a remodel job from the concept to the final completion so that everyone involved has clear knowledge. The design build remodeler will only design to the approved needs, wants and budget given by the owner. They determine and participate in the final investment amount based on the selections they make. This process gives them maximun input into want they ultimately will agree to order. Of course, first they must trust that we are interested in their complete satisfaction. Once we have earned their trust, without giving them alot of free advice, then we can obtain the most accurate information so we can let them know if we are a fit for each other. Part of being a fit is letting them know that we are a match on the budget range. A design build contractor must not design over the targeted budget range without an approval in writing from the HO. 
Most design build orders require two or three visits. Very rarely does it happen on the first appointment due to the many items that need to be considered to properly meet the needs, wants and budget ranges of the client in one appointment slot.
As far as budget is concerned, if we don't get that out on the table at the outset we could put together a great proposal that is over their intended investment amount and may not be exactly what they envision. If we do a design that is over the budget the HO will be upset. That's what happens most of the time with designers and architechs who don't always design to the budget.
This approach is about becoming the trusted advisor to walk them through the many aspects of remodeling which most HO's have little knowledge.
Design/build leads to greater customer satisfaction due to the level of involvement by all parties. 

By obtaining agreements upfront on everything including meetings you set the stage for mutual particiaption. This saves everyone alot of time and promotes transparency. 

The closing ratio for design build orders, done properly, is 85% or better. 
Why not spend the time upfront finding out if we are a fit on everything including the budget so we don't waste the HO's time and of course ours too doing free estimates? 

mark the coach


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Mark, 

Reading your last post I may have been totally mistaken on what you were trying to say in the post I quoted earlier. Hopefully tonight I can come back and reread this thread and maybe rethink my positions.


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## mark the coach (Aug 11, 2008)

Hello Mike,

Maybe I could have explained them better. Any thoughts are welcomed.

mark the coach


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

mark the coach said:


> Hello Mike,
> 
> Maybe I could have explained them better. Any thoughts are welcomed.
> 
> mark the coach


The second explaination nailed the points. Because I use run my company following a similar system I understood you completely.

The Design/build and lead carpenter systems are different from most remodeler's way of thinking. 

I have been to seminars and watch guys when the speaker explains the process and benefits and I could see the dismissal of what he was saying immediately from the group. I am a contractor not a designer etc. 

Not grasping the whole concept or idea

Secondly the ballpark estimate and the actual estimate after the design build process is not the norm. This should be touched on a bit more if possible Mark

I think if you have time you could explain it a bit more an think it would be very beneficial for a few guys I know on here.


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## SethHoldren (Feb 13, 2008)

I see Mike's point about the Sandler formula.

The important thing to remember about sales formulas and tactics isn't necessarily the exact wording, it's the concepts.

If you are impersonal and rigid - following a script - you immediately become unlikeable. And people only buy from people they like.

So take the concepts and put them into your own words.

Really the Sandler process of Up Front Contracts is all about eliminating wasting your time on prospects who are going nowhere. These "I have to think about it" prospects will eat up your time, and steal your expertise.

What a feeling of freedom when you realize you can avoid these "time wasters" by following a few simple sales principles!

Mike, you're right. Those sales scripts don't pass my internal "BS" sensors either. But when I take the Sandler techniques and write down the objectives...then figure out how to put them into my own words...the system works now as much as it ever has in the past. It's based on sound human behavior patterns.

My all time favorite Sandler lesson is "Breaking or Interrupting the Expected Pattern of a Sales Call."

Adopting that mindset will open up a ton of great sales opportunities. Because, after all, we Americans are _*masters*_ at avoiding "salesy" crap.


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## ISelRfs (Jul 13, 2008)

Carport King said:


> Ed this is a simple answer.
> 
> THEY DO NOT ASK FOR THE SALE!!
> 
> ...


I agree on that
_
"I have to show it to my husband/wife/dad/mom/neighbor...."_

and

_"OK...so... we have bunch of other people coming out. I'll let you know..."

_ is what I hate most


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