# Burned Out



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

onthelevel said:


> Everyone gets a burned out now and then just take a little break.
> 
> Dealing with a bunch of idiots all in a row can take a toll on a guy.
> 
> ...


Never seen him say a word regarding costs


----------



## SidingSweetie (May 29, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> i'm tired of being tired,i had my testosterone level checked recently and it was fine:sad:..why am i so tired:confused1:...tired tired tired:sleep1:



Try a B-12 supplement, either like a pill, or sub-lingual/liquid, and a multi-vitamin. Do you sleep well? Do you snore? If so, you should get a sleep study done to verify you don't have sleep apnea-that means you literally stop breathing for a short period of time while you're sleeping-then you suddenly start up again, oftentimes gasping/choking-which wakes you up momentarily. Most of the time, you don't recall waking up at night, but it can be happening a LOT, some ppl do it literally, 50+ times per night, so, of course, even though you *think* you've slept all night, you never get a proper amount of true REM/restorative sleep, because you're always 'waking' up, or going back to sleep. It can be not only annoying, but very serious. 

Allergies can also impede your sleep. If none of these are the cause, look on Dr. Oz's site, he has a bunch of good suggestions regarding how to improve your sleep, and what foods and supplements can increase your energy. 

Lastly, feeling tired, even though you get enough sleep, can be a sign of depression. If you think that *might* be it-research it.....there is NO shame in this. I've been there, and so have millions of others......talk to your doctor. There are so many ways to treat depression, from meds, to therapy, working out, journaling, group counseling........you can find a treatment that you are comfortable with, and that works. The 1st step (and it's a hard one), is to tell your doctor. My doctor actually told me that something like 75% off ALL his appointments, are patients who are dealing with mental issues!

My husband battles this, so, *disclaimer* I'm not a doctor, and my advice should not be taken without consulting your own physician. I have, however; researched this a lot, because Mama needs her sleep, too! ;-) Feel free to PM me if you have any questions...


----------



## dave_dj1 (Mar 16, 2010)

I feel burned out every now and then, I just say to myself "things could all change with just a phone call". A job that I find interesting will come along and all will be well again for a while, I find there is a cycle to it. 
I'm glad I don't have a mundane job or am stuck in an office or worst yet a cubicle all day!
Yes, take some time and think about things, reflect, dream, wish and then move on. It helps if you have someone to talk to from time to time. 
I had heard a while back that over 50% of Americans are on some sort of med's for mental health issues. 
Hang in there:thumbsup:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

SidingSweetie said:


> Try a B-12 supplement, either like a pill, or sub-lingual/liquid, and a multi-vitamin. Do you sleep well? Do you snore? If so, you should get a sleep study done to verify you don't have sleep apnea-that means you literally stop breathing for a short period of time while you're sleeping-then you suddenly start up again, oftentimes gasping/choking-which wakes you up momentarily. Most of the time, you don't recall waking up at night, but it can be happening a LOT, some ppl do it literally, 50+ times per night, so, of course, even though you *think* you've slept all night, you never get a proper amount of true REM/restorative sleep, because you're always 'waking' up, or going back to sleep. It can be not only annoying, but very serious.
> 
> Allergies can also impede your sleep. If none of these are the cause, look on Dr. Oz's site, he has a bunch of good suggestions regarding how to improve your sleep, and what foods and supplements can increase your energy.
> 
> ...


 A couple pots of coffee , 5 hour energy when its awful and miller lite to wind down.


----------



## kcremodeling (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanks for all the feedback. By letting everybody go it has allowed me to take some real time away. I have had the last 3 weeks off and still am not quite ready to go back. :no:

I will bring on an employee and line up my subs when I start my next project. :thumbsup:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

kcremodeling said:


> Thanks for all the feedback. By letting everybody go it has allowed me to take some real time away. I have had the last 3 weeks off and still am not quite ready to go back. :no:
> 
> I will bring on an employee and line up my subs when I start my next project. :thumbsup:



Let everyone go? Bad crew? 

Had to let a decent hand go this week, hurt like a ***** , but he just wouldnt improve his skills and change some habits. I hate " letting people go". Firing people who piss me off is much easier.


----------



## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

I always got stressed out when two employees needed firing. Which one gets it? What if I fire the wrong one? What if he goes postal? What if I fire one and the other one quits? Much easier when one guy is clearly the winner for getting two checks.:laughing:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

onthelevel said:


> Everyone gets a burned out now and then just take a little break.
> 
> Dealing with a bunch of idiots all in a row can take a toll on a guy.
> 
> ...


Wtf.. Holmes?


----------



## kcremodeling (Nov 8, 2009)

jawtrs said:


> Let everyone go? Bad crew?


Main guy went back to school, he had some pretty serious back problems so he finally got out of the business. 

After he left, I tried to train a new employee that didn't have any real experience and that was what really started to stress me out. My painter also relies on me for about 1/2 of his work. He is a great painter and a big part of what I do, so I like to make sure he has enough work to stay afloat.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

kcremodeling said:


> Main guy went back to school, he had some pretty serious back problems so he finally got out of the business.
> 
> After he left, I tried to train a new employee that didn't have any real experience and that was what really started to stress me out. My painter also relies on me for about 1/2 of his work. He is a great painter and a big part of what I do, so I like to make sure he has enough work to stay afloat.


Stick with it kc. Your site ranks too well to quit. I say spend 30 days hiking the appalation trail then you will feel better about going back to work.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Kcr,I feel for you.

Its very important to diffrentiate burning out from being beat down by life.

Burning out is when you realise you dont want to do what you doing and that you have no interest left and breaks give you only short interest in returning to trades.

Being beat down by life happens when customers are unfair,economy is down,money is not coming in like it should and dog just pooped on lawn that you ended up stepping into.

I have been there twice,it looks like everything else misaligns in your life and all the bills come in when you least need them to,every phone call you expecting doesnt want to appear and etc etc etc.

I suggest reviewing your business model. I did and I am much happier now...I charge reasonable rates and I am looking in future with optimism.

If I find myself in same situation I was last winter with same amount of net as last time,I will change my business model again and raise the prices.

Cheer up,have couple of good beers and nice side of BBQ ribs with mash potatoes...helps me anyway.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Hop in your truck and drive somewhere other than work. Leave the phone at home.


----------



## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

I hear ya loud and clear. been there a few times. kinda goin through it now again. keep trying to convince myself to stick with it.
wife forces me to go on vacation once a yr. now she's pushing me for a 2nd vacation and i'm giving her crap about it.
but you MUST leave the phone behind. or if you can discipline yourself not to answer it.
feel run down, tired. wake up every morning and feel like you havnt rested.
went to doc. found out i have sleep apnea. seems to be alot of peoples problems with being always tired. should get checked out for that. seems very common these days.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Sleep apnea stems from the ct mobile app and the next days jobs..


----------



## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Don't know if this is allowed or not so delete it if it is not appropriate......

Try going to Church.

I went back after my son was born, my first. I realized that life isn't about work, we only work to provide for our family, a family that God has provided for us. Put things back in perspective and taking time away from my family because some homeowner decided they weren't going to do something on their end and expected me to be there to fix it, wasn't happening anymore.

I worked non-stop, no lie, 135 days no days off. Had more than 1 or 2 5 am's to 12:30 am's. All to get ready to take some time off when my son was born. I took 2 days from work and worked the day my wife was in labor. I was broke to boot.

Since then I started making sure that Sunday's are for us and part of Saturday is for me (fishing, rearranging the garage, cooking, whatever). Start every morning with a prayer on the way to work to uphold my end of the bargain and end it with a thanks for the ability.

No strict rules as to when and where other than to give Him his time and the rest will fall into place. Almost lost my family because of work and had to ask myself "what's the purpose if I can't be happy doing it" I'm still not rich, but I am happy. Good luck to you.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Deckhead said:


> Don't know if this is allowed or not so delete it if it is not appropriate......
> 
> Try going to Church.
> 
> ...


Nice post! Our family goes to church, its good for the soul. :thumbsup:


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Great post Deckhead,I go to church on average twice a week...week day and sunday.

Nothing wrong with expressing your gratitude to God for everything given to you and thanking him for being more fortunate than a lot of people.


----------



## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Tom Struble said:


> i'm tired of being tired,i had my testosterone level checked recently and it was fine:sad:..why am i so tired:confused1:...tired tired tired:sleep1:


Have your thyroid checked.
Echo the B vitamins. I take half a NatureMade Stress Complex in the morning and the other half at dinner.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

SidingSweetie said:


> Try a B-12 supplement, either like a pill, or sub-lingual/liquid, and a multi-vitamin. Do you sleep well? Do you snore? If so, you should get a sleep study done to verify you don't have sleep apnea-that means you literally stop breathing for a short period of time while you're sleeping-then you suddenly start up again, oftentimes gasping/choking-which wakes you up momentarily. Most of the time, you don't recall waking up at night, but it can be happening a LOT, some ppl do it literally, 50+ times per night, so, of course, even though you *think* you've slept all night, you never get a proper amount of true REM/restorative sleep, because you're always 'waking' up, or going back to sleep. It can be not only annoying, but very serious.
> 
> Allergies can also impede your sleep. If none of these are the cause, look on Dr. Oz's site, he has a bunch of good suggestions regarding how to improve your sleep, and what foods and supplements can increase your energy.
> 
> ...



wow..you actually are a sidingsweetie:thumbup:


----------



## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Well, I guess I'll play the bad guy here. First, I think we all suffer what you are describing at one time or another.

The thing that kinda jumped out at me was this line...


> The problem is that my bid should be more like $45K in order to make the money I need.


I've typed a few responses trying to make it sound right...anything I type, I sound like a jerk, so I'll just cut to the chase.
I'd just try to make sure you aren't living beyond your means and expecting the customer to pay for it.

Just a thought. Let the flames begin...


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

TimNJ said:


> Have your thyroid checked.
> Echo the B vitamins. I take half a NatureMade Stress Complex in the morning and the other half at dinner.


so are you Timmy:shifty:


----------



## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Robie said:


> Well, I guess I'll play the bad guy here. First, I think we all suffer what you are describing at one time or another.
> 
> The thing that kinda jumped out at me was this line...
> 
> ...


In my past life, when I managed lots of people...I used to hate it when somebody asked for a raise because their car payment was too high.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

answering your own post may be one of those mental issues...:sad:


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

AJAX said:


> hinkin about flipping houses.


...and in the past era of "no ID, nor any other documentation necessary required" real estate market, a geko could fix and flip and make money.

Man, those were the days, we all were smart, we all were successful businessmen, we all were stock market investors, we had the midas touch.

But now that the fantasy is over and play money is now suspect, who's the buyers?


----------



## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Tom Struble said:


> answering your own post may be one of those mental issues...:sad:


Too many lacquer fumes today maybe....


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Embrace the buzzing sensation.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Mr Struble are you anemic? Maybe your sleeping patterns are screwed up...funny fact it takes a day of bad sleep to develop chronic fatigue.(scientifically proven)


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i dunno...but i'm up pretty late starin into this screen:blink:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Tom Struble said:


> i dunno...but i'm up pretty late starin into this screen:blink:


The answer to everything is hidden deep inside you just have to look hard enough. :laughing:


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> i dunno...but i'm up pretty late starin into this screen:blink:


I had same issue for almost two weeks,thankfully I was not working but I almost killed myself...I would play games or read CT or smth until 6 am,then fall asleep at 7 and wake up at 5pm...felt like crap and never saw sun...

I doubt its as extreme in your case but I would probably start off from balancing diet and sleeping patterns.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

:whistling


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> :whistling


I wish everything was that easy :laughing:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

TheItalian204 said:


> I wish everything was that easy :laughing:


It is, just take deeper breathes..


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> It is, just take deeper breathes..


take deeper breathes,then get back to your knees and finish that damn 4x4 kithen tile :laughing:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

TheItalian204 said:


> take deeper breathes,then get back to your knees and finish that damn 4x4 kithen tile :laughing:


What tile?


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> What tile?


doing it right now...overnighter...customer needs it done by tomorrow 4pm...in-laws coming in town..


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

TheItalian204 said:


> doing it right now...overnighter...customer needs it done by tomorrow 4pm...in-laws coming in town..


Wow your working? Is it your house? Edit, time zones, ooops.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Wow your working? Is it your house? Edit, time zones, ooops.


No,not mine,old customer of mine remodeled kitchen and could not get me in before now..stupid tax in effect :whistling...


----------



## SidingSweetie (May 29, 2011)

jawtrs said:


> A couple pots of coffee , 5 hour energy when its awful and miller lite to wind down.


LOL, if every single one of those things didn't end up with me puking my guts out, I might try that, too.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

SidingSweetie said:


> LOL, if every single one of those things didn't end up with me puking my guts out, I might try that, too.


Thats funny. I tried one the other day, not my cup of tea. I can vouch for their effectiveness though so long as you construe energy as a jittery dumbfounded feeling.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Robie said:


> In my past life, when I managed lots of people...I used to hate it when somebody asked for a raise because their car payment was too high.


 I agree 100%. I hate it too.

As far as charging the correct amount, I don't think from his posts KC Remodeling is living beyond his means

Imo, the correct price does range due to ones overhead. I get under bid regularly by a two man band working out of his garage and truck. It is what it is. I have a much larger overhead and expect to make a reasonable profit. I commend him for his choices, lord knows the appeal to do the same thing is strong for me sometimes. He's happy, does good work and I imagine he will continue beating my prices and making a profit. As he should.

Thank god there aren't many good ones like him, and thank god for referrals. Lol


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I am starting to think jobs can be completed more e$$icently using specialized subs.


----------



## SidingSweetie (May 29, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> wow..you actually are a sidingsweetie:thumbup:


Well, Tom, you're making this Southern girl blush. I wish I could claim the title of 'Sweetie' 100% of the time, even 75%........but I have some Spanish blood running in my veins......sooooooo......lol.

Siding'beach' didn't quite have a ring to it. :-/


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Thats funny. I tried one the other day, not my cup of tea. I can vouch for their effectiveness though so long as you construe energy as a jittery dumbfounded feeling.


 I need to cut back on the coffee, but I'm cutting back on the grub, so hard to do. I rarely take 5 hour, I doubt its healthy. Jittery I can handle as long as I'm producing. I rarely drink either. I love beer, but the old lady doesn't take to drinking all the time and its hard on the weight.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Kc's website is on the first page for basement finishing nationally. :clap:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

jawtrs said:


> I need to cut back on the coffee, but I'm cutting back on the grub, so hard to do. I rarely take 5 hour, I doubt its healthy. Jittery I can handle as long as I'm producing. I rarely drink either. I love beer, but the old lady doesn't take to drinking all the time and its hard on the weight.


Im on a diet too. I have figured out the secret to alot of things. The secret to quiting smoking Dont Smoke. The secret to losing weight Eat Less. Food is harder than the cigs since I love good food so much.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I am starting to think jobs can be completed more e$$icently using specialized subs.


 Me too. Lol

When I first came to work with my old man 3 years ago, I wanted everything inhouse. Now I see the light. Lol.

My painters are AWESOME, I mean that very seriously. BUT, they have NO sense of urgency and if no one is there to run them, somewhat inefficient. My brother works with them sometimes, but has been tunning jobs as a lead Carpenter and doing trim and interior framing. 

I never make money off the paint on remodels or new homes, but the finish work is awesome, it is what sells us. I have been putting g more pressure on the lead painter to do things in order, and all like things at once. Hopefully makes us some money.

Additions and customs, we sub foundations, framing. Remodels, flooring, cabinets, some Drywall, electric, hvac, and plumbing. Most often showers too. We do interior framing, trim, some built ins and vanity, some drywall, closets, our closets are almost all custom, paint and cabinet finishes, hardware, porches, decks, boat docks, welding in house. Roofs and gutters are subbed to. We find it more profitable this way.


----------



## ECSOWNER (Jul 25, 2011)

Its not so much a burn out issue with me. Its more a funk. I will go through spurts when things are rolling great, then its like the rain clouds open and life is taking a dump on me. My stress level has more hills than a roller coaster. Last week things were going great. I've got plenty of work, and then my carpenter call me at 7:00 tonight and says he wont be there tomorrow, he is quitting. Awesome! I have a siding job starting Monday that I can not push off. I call my list of friends and other contractors I sub with occasionally. Everyone is slammed and cant free up a guy. Guess I'm doing 15 sq of siding myself. 

I just try to stay focused and tell myself its worth it in the long run. If I can grow my business and live comfortably, give my kids the things they need, and be able to travel and do as we wish in the future, it is worth it. For right now, I muck through it on the s***y days, and sail through on the great days.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

jawtrs said:


> Me too. Lol
> 
> When I first came to work with my old man 3 years ago, I wanted everything inhouse. Now I see the light. Lol.
> 
> ...


I would love to build a boat dock. Just not a huge market for that in Ohio. :sad:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Im on a diet too. I have figured out the secret to alot of things. The secret to quiting smoking Dont Smoke. The secret to losing weight Eat Less. Food is harder than the cigs since I love good food so much.


 Yep. If I spent more time with my bags on, I'd be better off, but not happening right now. Got to watch what I eat now, I've always tended toward the gut, now my calorie burning is at a minimum. Can't eat much Mexican food and BBQ.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I would love to build a boat dock. Just not a huge market for that in Ohio. :sad:


 Boat docks are awesome. We do steel with 2 7/8 drill stem for posts, concrete pan or decking. Hard ass work but fun.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> :whistling


If you haven't watched the entire skit, you don't know what you are missing. Look up Charlie Murphy David Chappelle.

Nice one Warner!


----------



## kcremodeling (Nov 8, 2009)

Robie said:


> I'd just try to make sure you aren't living beyond your means and expecting the customer to pay for it.


I think that this may illustrate some of the problem I am dealing with here. You think I'm getting rich off $35K but that's nowhere near the case. The guy that bid it at $25K probably thinks he is going to make good money on this job. It will likely be next year before he realizes he didn't make any. And BTW, the numbers are irrelevant as I did not describe the scope of work. I could have just as easily said $75K. 

I'm not asking for anything special here I just want some of the same luxuries that corporate America enjoys. The standard benefits an average company offers, makes up for 43% of their overall expenditure for an employee. 

Dental Plan
Health Insurance
401K
Vacations
Workers Compensation for myself
Short term disability Insurance
Long term disability Insurance
Paid time off
Sick Days​
Why is the guy wearing a suit to work everyday covered in the event of an accident and the guy running the circular saw isn't? :blink:

You also have to consider the amount of time that goes into setting up all the jobs. I spend a considerable amount of time sending email, doing bids, accounting, marketing, and other paperwork. My time on the job site only makes up for roughly 2/3 of my total hours.


If I am making $15K on a job that takes two months...

Profit is $7K per month...

Overhead, Insurance, and Equipment is $1K per month...

Benefits are $3K per month...

I'm left with $4k at the end of the month and a 70 hour work week...

I made $14 per hour...:clap:

I have over simplified this quite a bit as there are many expenses that I did not figure, but I think you get the idea.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

kcremodeling said:


> I think that this may illustrate some of the problem I am dealing with here. You think I'm getting rich off $35K but that's nowhere near the case. The guy that bid it at $25K probably thinks he is going to make good money on this job. It will likely be next year before he realizes he didn't make any. And BTW, the numbers are irrelevant as I did not describe the scope of work. I could have just as easily said $75K.
> 
> I'm not asking for anything special here I just want some of the same luxuries that corporate America enjoys. The standard benefits an average company offers, makes up for 43% of their overall expenditure for an employee.
> 
> ...


The fine line that we walk is an entitlement attitude. Everything that you listed is a benefit and not a right.

I think that you really over simplified the comparison and really don't understand how larger corporations operate. It's just not an apples to apples comparison. They have loss leader items and can lose millions on one product while making it up in another. There are also big tax breaks the larger you become. Some say it isn't fair, but when you employee hundreds if not thousands of employees, and are creating and sustaining those jobs, it seems pretty fair to me. I know how difficult it is to run my small operation, I can't imagine the brains and muscle behind something even as big as 100 employees.

Should we be able to afford some of those perks? Sure. But I would rather be content in what I have been given, than covet that which someone else has.


----------



## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

Stop bidding and start selling. Price doesn't tell the customer anything about the company they are interviewing, its just a price. When you figure out how to take low "bids" and turn them into sales tools you'll stop carrying around that " other guy's alot cheaper than me " anchor that seems to weigh you down. By specializing in basment finishes you're going to get alot of low overhead, improperly insured and liscensed competition. Its always been that way. Find your advantage and sell it for all its worth.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> The fine line that we walk is an entitlement attitude. Everything that you listed is a benefit and not a right.
> 
> I think that you really over simplified the comparison and really don't understand how larger corporations operate. It's just not an apples to apples comparison. They have loss leader items and can lose millions on one product while making it up in another. There are also big tax breaks the larger you become. Some say it isn't fair, but when you employee hundreds if not thousands of employees, and are creating and sustaining those jobs, it seems pretty fair to me. I know how difficult it is to run my small operation, I can't imagine the brains and muscle behind something even as big as 100 employees.
> 
> Should we be able to afford some of those perks? Sure. But I would rather be content in what I have been given, than covet that which someone else has.


Well said, I agree. I took what KC wrote as he is working toward pricing his work to achieve those things, though. If his work warrants it, why not? 

Entitlement vs privilege is a wide spread problem.


----------



## kcremodeling (Nov 8, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Everything that you listed is a benefit and not a right.


If I took on a job working for somebody else, these are all things I would request or demand from an employer. So why should it be any different when I am running my own business? 

Nobody wants to think about the possibility of getting hurt or injured but we all run the risk of experiencing an accident. It would really hit you hard if you are unable to work and got stuck with thousands in medical bills. Something like that could put you out of business for good. 

It's not that I have a sense of entitlement, I just want to protect all that I have invested into my business.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Good grief.


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I'm with KC on this one. Example - I can get a job working for someone else right now at $30/hr. That times 1.4 to cover the costs of having me makes it $42/hr. 

Now they need to make a profit on me. If they were to add 30% that brings the rate to $54.60/hr.

As a general rule companies take their actual rate they pay an employee and double it. I know for a fact that the large contractors do this. Union carpenter is now $47.50/hr. They double that number. So residential customers are already getting a discount price.

So that means they're charging $60/hr. for me. This is the going rate in the Toronto area. So if I charge a client $50/hr, they're getting a deal.

So by the time I pay for all those things I would get anyways, I'm back to wages. Anyone who works for wage rate and has their own company will soon be out of business.

You need to be charging enough to cover all these things. Otherwise you'll end up making $10/hr. May as well go take a job somewhere then.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Good grief.


:laughing:


----------



## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> The fine line that we walk is an entitlement attitude. Everything that you listed is a benefit and not a right.
> 
> I think that you really over simplified the comparison and really don't understand how larger corporations operate. It's just not an apples to apples comparison. They have loss leader items and can lose millions on one product while making it up in another. There are also big tax breaks the larger you become. Some say it isn't fair, but when you employee hundreds if not thousands of employees, and are creating and sustaining those jobs, it seems pretty fair to me. I know how difficult it is to run my small operation, I can't imagine the brains and muscle behind something even as big as 100 employees.
> 
> Should we be able to afford some of those perks? Sure. But I would rather be content in what I have been given, than covet that which someone else has.


If KC wants to work for somebody and he wants those benies good for him. It's not "entitlement" vs "benefit". It's "I have a skill that you want. How bad do you want my skill?".

It's a bargaining chip.

It's ridiculous to say some corporate suit is fine to get all that, but somebody in construction shouldn't.


----------



## blackbear (Feb 29, 2008)

Bring the work, bring the long days, bring the sleepless nights. Eat it up and spit it out.
I don't have time to bleed.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I personally plan on retiring while my corporate jockey friends are a few glass panes from the top. Also I golfed twice this week during normal business hours and paid myself for it since my plumber and electrician tagged along and we talked about work.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

TimNJ said:


> If KC wants to work for somebody and he wants those benies good for him. It's not "entitlement" vs "benefit". It's "I have a skill that you want. How bad do you want my skill?".
> 
> It's a bargaining chip.
> 
> It's ridiculous to say some corporate suit is fine to get all that, but somebody in construction shouldn't.


Where did I say that they shouldn't try and get it?

What I am saying is that what he listed were benefits and not rights. But let's look at it relatively. I own my business and it's just me. You have to have something like 3 families to get a group insurance plan, which lowers the cost. When larger corporations hire you and pay that 1.4% for your wage, you are not factoring in the fact that they are able to pay a lower rate on benefits. Same goes for WC and UEI. The more people you have the less you pay. 

I agree that we should include some of what he is talking about in our pricing, but 401K, and other benefits are luxuries. If it means that I cannot compete, and lose jobs because I am too high in price, then I would rather eat and be warm than tuck away 6% in to my 401K.

And there are a lot of us with that skill, it's not just about the skill that you possess. There are dozens of cabinet shops in my area, they all have some pretty darn good skills, what's the next thing I am going to look at? Customer Service? Turn Around? Price? If I own a shop and can employ 8 guys with a retirement plan, or I can employ 10 guys without a retirement plan, I would rather employ 10 guys, and I am sure that the other 2 guys would be happy to have the job.


----------



## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I golfed twice this week during normal business hours and paid myself for it since my plumber and electrician tagged along and we talked about work.




I love those days . :thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I personally plan on retiring while my corporate jockey friends are a few glass panes from the top. Also I golfed twice this week during normal business hours and paid myself for it since my plumber and electrician tagged along and we talked about work.


 Hell yeah.


----------



## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> If I own a shop and can employ 8 guys with a retirement plan, or I can employ 10 guys without a retirement plan, I would rather employ 10 guys, and I am sure that the other 2 guys would be happy to have the job.


Or the eight guys are guys you can count on because they feel that your company values them.
VS to you, you would rather just have 10 warm bodies and those 10 warm bodies know the first chance they get they are walking out on you. Your company then has a constant revolving door of short term employees.


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Rob is not wrong. That's the way it is. Unfortunately the public does not put a high value on working people (the trades) Just the way it is.

I try to raise the bar in the trades however I can. Only then will we get paid what we really should be making. :thumbsup:

I believe this will start to change over the next 5-10 years. Something like 40% of all skilled tradesmen are nearing retirement age. Then, due to the shortage of skilled ( important word there ) trades the rates should start to go up.

This means the small contractor will be able to charge a decent amount for the work he does. It's supply and demand at work.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

In the US its doctor, lawyer, business man, then us. Id say not too far down the chain.


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

As you may or may not know, I had eye surgery this week. The surgeon spent 13 years in med school to learn how to do this. He earns every penny. His education cost him about 1 million dollars.

He did 20 eye operations in one day. About $2500 each. He has to pay his staff out of that, but that's good money. He should have his education loans paid off in no time. :thumbsup:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

katoman said:


> As you may or may not know, I had eye surgery this week. The surgeon spent 13 years in med school to learn how to do this. He earns every penny. His education cost him about 1 million dollars.
> 
> He did 20 eye operations in one day. About $2500 each. He has to pay his staff out of that, but that's good money. He should have his education loans paid off in no time. :thumbsup:


Are you still pleased with the results? Someone in our business can clear double that without leaving their house. Its all what you want to get out of life. I personally just want to do the absolute best I can and then retire.


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

The results are fantastic. Thank god this technology exists and there are people skilled enough to do it. Or I'd be going blind and never do my trade again.

I was referring to how you put doctors at the top of the list. I totally agree. When we need them, they are awesome.

I'm happy to just do my trade. I hate business. I want to build stuff till I die on the job site one day. Well, actually I am working on starting a new cabinet venture so I can stay home in the shop.

I've got two years to make it viable. That's my immediate challenge.

Going to be online. I don't know anything about this. Lots to learn. :thumbsup:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

katoman said:


> The results are fantastic. Thank god this technology exists and there are people skilled enough to do it. Or I'd be going blind and never do my trade again.
> 
> I was referring to how you put doctors at the top of the list. I totally agree. When we need them, they are awesome.
> 
> ...


I know a great google merchant guy


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I know a great google merchant guy


You mean a guy who knows how to get your site seen when people go on google?


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

katoman said:


> You mean a guy who knows how to get your site seen when people go on google?


No a guy who can list your products so people can buy them online without even bothering you.


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Can you explain that to me? I will only have one product. And I only need to sell one a week to be able to get out of the reno business.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

katoman said:


> Can you explain that to me? I will only have one product. And I only need to sell one a week to be able to get out of the reno business.


Google has a shopping service. To sell on it you need a merchant account (free). Once you set it up there are people who optimize your profile and or pages just like a seo guy would do for website serp results. You can market your product all over the world. If you only have one product I would think it would be easy to set up a website geared for only that product and then drive people to it through a google merchant or shopping account.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I think your problem will be getting way more than 1 order a week. :thumbsup:


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Thanks Matt, that sounds great. I've registered the new company name to secure the name. I have to build one "unit" to get pictures, then do the web site. I have a guy to do the web site, but no one to "market" it.

I can only do one a week. It is hand made. I used to make them and just got away from it. Now, looking towards retirement I want something that will still bring in some income.

There is only one other person that I could find through google making this. I'll send you a pm with a pic.

When I'm ready I'll ask for your friends contact info. Hopefully by the fall. I'm still busy with the reno work.

Apparently I can't add a pic to pm. If you pm me your email I'll send it to you.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

katoman said:


> Thanks Matt, that sounds great. I've registered the new company name to secure the name. I have to build one "unit" to get pictures, then do the web site. I have a guy to do the web site, but no one to "market" it.
> 
> I can only do one a week. It is hand made. I used to make them and just got away from it. Now, looking towards retirement I want something that will still bring in some income.
> 
> ...


Look forward to it. Thanks


----------

