# A Future in Carpentry



## woodworkbykirk

from what ive seen locally, there are decent number of apprentices however two things discourage them

1) builders who hire apprentices to take advantage of them by overworking them and underpaying them. so they want to quit because they cant afford to buy gas to show up for work

2) apprentices trying to find work but many companys arent willing to train apprentices

so basically they get stuck being underpaid, or work as labours where they wont get taught anything so they eventually quit. only a few stick with it and prevail


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## RAbraker

woodworkbykirk said:


> from what ive seen locally, there are decent number of apprentices however two things discourage them
> 
> 1) builders who hire apprentices to take advantage of them by overworking them and underpaying them. so they want to quit because they cant afford to buy gas to show up for work


This is very true. The number of guys who want to 1099 you at $10/hr is astonishing. Which works out to be about minimum wage. You can make more than that at Walmart.




woodworkbykirk said:


> 2) apprentices trying to find work but many companys arent willing to train apprentices


Also true. Unless you have 8(or 10 or 15) years as a journeyman, most companies don't want to talk to you.

I've found myself stuck in in this odd no-man's land between greenhorn apprentice/laborer and a full journeyman. Even though I refuse to do so, it's very tempting to over-represent your skills to get your foot in the door somewhere. I think my progress has stagnated at my current job and finding something else is proving challenging.


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## woodworkbykirk

i fought with these issues for a couple years, then to prove i was dedicated i starting buying and bringing more of my own tools. with some of hte companys ive worked for they would question my ability overall because of my poor balance up in trusses so id stay on the ground... some would go as far as to say i was a hack.. my comeback "let me trim the next house".. what happened you ask.. they got rid of the trim subcontractor and i took over the trim almost entirely

it is sad though what apprentices are getting paid. i know a few who are getting $12-13 dollars, expected to have a vehicle that gets them to work with no problems, yet stuck living in a rat hole so they can eat and buy gas to get to work. 

when i was nearing the end of my apprenticeship i worked for a guy who was paying me $14 as a 3rd year, then when i became a red seal and became his foreman.. he gave me $16 to come back.. i did it reluctantly to help him out because his last foreman walked..i wasnt far behind. multiple times i had to harass him for more money as i was supplying 90% of the tools and running sites. a week after i left him i started with a new company making $3 more, 2 months after that they bumped me up another $2/hr and the rest as they say is "history"...

moral of the story, pay apprentices what their worth. otherwise the skills will die with the current batch of elders and it wont be passed on to the next generation. otherwise there wont be pros anymore or contractor talk only diy'ers


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## FramingPro

woodworkbykirk said:


> i fought with these issues for a couple years, then to prove i was dedicated i starting buying and bringing more of my own tools. with some of hte companys ive worked for they would question my ability overall because of my poor balance up in trusses so id stay on the ground... some would go as far as to say i was a hack.. my comeback "let me trim the next house".. what happened you ask.. they got rid of the trim subcontractor and i took over the trim almost entirely
> 
> it is sad though what apprentices are getting paid. i know a few who are getting $12-13 dollars, expected to have a vehicle that gets them to work with no problems, yet stuck living in a rat hole so they can eat and buy gas to get to work.
> 
> when i was nearing the end of my apprenticeship i worked for a guy who was paying me $14 as a 3rd year, then when i became a red seal and became his foreman.. he gave me $16 to come back.. i did it reluctantly to help him out because his last foreman walked..i wasnt far behind. multiple times i had to harass him for more money as i was supplying 90% of the tools and running sites. a week after i left him i started with a new company making $3 more, 2 months after that they bumped me up another $2/hr and the rest as they say is "history"...
> 
> moral of the story, pay apprentices what their worth. otherwise the skills will die with the current batch of elders and it wont be passed on to the next generation. otherwise there wont be pros anymore or contractor talk only diy'ers


very good post, i get paid only $8/hr but i love it and wont stop


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## Bweikel

Do u Canadian fellas have a problem with immigration up there?


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## BradingCon

katoman said:


> Well there have been a bunch of posts lately all kind of revolving around a similar theme.
> 
> -no apprentices left
> -the young don't want to work
> -can't find skilled people
> -can't make any money
> -and a few more I can't remember right now.
> 
> But here's the thing - if you are a young man ( or youngish ) then the future is yours for the taking.
> 
> The old timers are retireing. There is a huge demand for SKILLED carpenters. HO with money will pay rediculous sums to have work done.
> 
> All you need is ambition, training, skills, and you can make a ton of money in this business. The future is bright for you. The demand for skilled people is growing and will continue to grow. The renovation market may be a little slow right now, but it will come back huge.
> 
> Just think - who will renovate and repair all the homes out there? I could spend the next 20 years just re-doing bathrooms, let alone the rest of the house.
> 
> So come on, get the skills and smarts, have fun, and take advantage of the opportunity that is coming. :thumbsup:


Katoman,

I am a twenty-six year old carpenter and have been doing construction my whole life. There is a lot of doom and gloom that is stated on here and it is extremely nice and inspirational to read your words above. I agree with you completely and embrace and look forward to the future and everything that comes with it. Thanks for the words Katoman.


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## Bweikel

BradingCon said:


> I am a twenty-six year old carpenter and have been doing construction my whole life. There is a lot of doom and gloom that is stated on here and it is extremely nice and inspirational to read your words above. I agree with you completely and embrace and look forward to the future and everything that comes with it. Thanks for the words Katoman.


I agree were the same age and I have also been in it my whole life grandfather, dad then me and it's great to see other people my age that embrace the trades.

That being said I am now a contractor and am worried that every thing that I have learned will not be passed on to someone who was like me starting out with the love of working with wood and the trades as I did and do.

That's were my "doom and gloom" comes from. Sure there is a hand full of people that can't wait to learn but it does seem like it is thinning out. 

Growing up I remember the old carpenters telling me "so glad there is some young'en wanting to learn your a dying breed" and I always wrote it off and grinned. I am young and have alot to learn but that is still what pushes me everyday, but I would love to start passing around all the little tricks that were handed down to me.


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## jpframing1

Just dont move to texas construction prices sux here wish i lived upnorth too


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## Bweikel

jpframing1 said:


> Just dont move to texas construction prices sux here wish i lived upnorth too


West here. I hear Texas is going strong no?


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## jpframing1

To many **** homes


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## Big Shoe

We are a dying breed.:sad: I really don't see any young guys at the supply houses. Not any that have American ancestry anyway.:no:


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## Brutus

Bweikel said:


> Do u Canadian fellas have a problem with immigration up there?


 
Human trafficing in BC from time to time, we get a few stowaways every once and a while here. But it isn't in any huge scale.


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## SKC

As one of the old timers, ( 43 years at carpentry & general contracing ) There are a lot of right on comments made here i agree with.
Not enough quality young guys coming into construction and the key here is "quality young guys". Glad to see some of you young guys here recognizing the realities you stated, you are attending the school of hard knocks, ( a difficult thing )Good luck with that. You will never know it all and when you think you know enough you have peaked. Seen plenty of know it alls that were no where near as good as they thought they were, and usually not good at all. After 43 years i love it when i get to work with someone better and learn something new.

It keeps your head in the right place knowing how little you know regardless of how much you know.


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## Hibernia86

woodworkbykirk said:


> 1) builders who hire apprentices to take advantage of them by overworking them and underpaying them. so they want to quit because they cant afford to buy gas to show up for work
> 
> 2) apprentices trying to find work but many companys arent willing to train apprentices


Those are exactly the two reasons I left the trades. I spent three years busting my back for beans before I had enough. I didn't mind $8 an hour when I started with no experience, but two years later I had to beg, literally, for months to get $11 an hour and insurance. And I had a bunch of my own tools, used my car to transport their materials and was usually available for overtime. Not to mention all the times I saved their ass when I was driving truck for them. Oh yeah, I went out of my pocket to go to training seminars so I could do my job better. They flat out refused to make me an apprentice. And when I applied at all the local shops, with impeccable references, no one called me back. I guess me wanting $12 an hour for a laborer who knows more than some installers I've met was too much. So now, I'm a college boy. I am getting the itch again now that it's getting nice out again.


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## FRAME2FINISH

it's still like that hibernia , i had a guy try and get me for 15 bucks an hour, i laughed at him, and said you want me to show up with my tools and van too huh

way too many people want to take advantage if they think they can, problem is alot of people can't say no to work right now, make sure you get a nice bankroll, it makes it easier knowing you can tell them to pound salt,

if ya start making money forgo spending it on tools you really want and just get what ya need, the other tools come when they are needed, and don't buy toys , to tempting to ride than work imo


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## Seal Hunter

*M.c*

How long have you been doing this kind of work?


katoman said:


> Well there have been a bunch of posts lately all kind of revolving around a similar theme.
> 
> -no apprentices left
> -the young don't want to work
> -can't find skilled people
> -can't make any money
> -and a few more I can't remember right now.
> 
> But here's the thing - if you are a young man ( or youngish ) then the future is yours for the taking.
> 
> The old timers are retireing. There is a huge demand for SKILLED carpenters. HO with money will pay rediculous sums to have work done.
> 
> All you need is ambition, training, skills, and you can make a ton of money in this business. The future is bright for you. The demand for skilled people is growing and will continue to grow. The renovation market may be a little slow right now, but it will come back huge.
> 
> Just think - who will renovate and repair all the homes out there? I could spend the next 20 years just re-doing bathrooms, let alone the rest of the house.
> 
> So come on, get the skills and smarts, have fun, and take advantage of the opportunity that is coming. :thumbsup:


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## Seal Hunter

*What's up!!*

Why do you think that there are alot of tradesman out there with no licences?


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## Bastien1337

I myself am turning 27 in march. I also own and run my own business been up for a year or so. I think Kato is dead on the money, attaching yourself to big outfits such as unions or companies is not the way. The skilled trades person will always have work. Go learn now, take courses, read everything you can read, watch everything you can watch. I'll go in random suppliers stores and just talk to them for hours about their product, the industry and so on and so forth. 

If you love what you are doing and eat sleep breathe it, you will be OK. Being smart in business is different than being highly skilled. But people will always need the work to get done, so figure it out on the business end. Dont be afraid to make mistakes. There will be plenty of those I assure you.

I was slow this past couple months, horribly slow, but I made up some fliers and went out THERE into the wilderness and made something happen. 

My first run of fliers i did I got a call to come quote 25-30g basement reno.

Its out there but you have to want it.


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## Jaws

woodworkbykirk said:


> i fought with these issues for a couple years, then to prove i was dedicated i starting buying and bringing more of my own tools. with some of hte companys ive worked for they would question my ability overall because of my poor balance up in trusses so id stay on the ground... some would go as far as to say i was a hack.. my comeback "let me trim the next house".. what happened you ask.. they got rid of the trim subcontractor and i took over the trim almost entirely
> 
> it is sad though what apprentices are getting paid. i know a few who are getting $12-13 dollars, expected to have a vehicle that gets them to work with no problems, yet stuck living in a rat hole so they can eat and buy gas to get to work.
> 
> when i was nearing the end of my apprenticeship i worked for a guy who was paying me $14 as a 3rd year, then when i became a red seal and became his foreman.. he gave me $16 to come back.. i did it reluctantly to help him out because his last foreman walked..i wasnt far behind. multiple times i had to harass him for more money as i was supplying 90% of the tools and running sites. a week after i left him i started with a new company making $3 more, 2 months after that they bumped me up another $2/hr and the rest as they say is "history"...
> 
> moral of the story, pay apprentices what their worth. otherwise the skills will die with the current batch of elders and it wont be passed on to the next generation. otherwise there wont be pros anymore or contractor talk only diy'ers


Out of curiosity how much do you think an apprentice should make? i made 8 an hour out of high school, supplied my own hand tools. made 10 an hour when i brought my own saws and cords. 2 when i got an air compresser and a few guns. Even as a jorney level with a crew under you, most dont make more than 17, even with all your own tools, including a sliding compound miter saw, a two tank compressor, 8 or 9 nail guns, and all the hand tools and power saws you can expect to see on a construction site. 

A bad [email protected]# carpenter here makes between 22 and 25 an hour. Apprenticeship dosent pay much until you have invested the time to learn the trade. imho, JAW


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## BC Carpenter

Bweikel said:


> Do u Canadian fellas have a problem with immigration up there?




I don't believe to the same extent that you have the mexican's down there.

Here we had a lot of mexican's working doing concrete formwork back before 2008ish, when there was a lot of work.

However mostly in new residential construction we have punjabi's that work for cheaper, they do a lot of the framing of single houses (not typically high end, hacked a lot of the time)

In what I do, remodeling, only immigrants I have to deal with are the chinese. Not all of them are a problem, however some work for CHEAP... can't even try to compare prices with them,  however typically they work with the chinese immigrant market, which is huge here. They are here, however doesn't affect me more than sometimes when I hear what they bid on a job that I lost.


I think this thread has a great message, so many don't even think about a "dirty" job like being a carpenter, and they know nothing of the knowledge/skill required and the sense of satisfaction that goes along with it.


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## BC Carpenter

jawtrs said:


> Out of curiosity how much do you think an apprentice should make? i made 8 an hour out of high school, supplied my own hand tools. made 10 an hour when i brought my own saws and cords, 12 when i got an air compresser and a few guns. Even as a jorney level with a crew under me, i never made more than 17, even with all my own tools, including a sliding compound miter saw, a two tank compressor, 8 or 9 nail guns, and all the hand tools and power saws you can expect to see on a construction site.
> 
> A bad [email protected]# carpenter here makes between 22 and 25 an hour. Apprenticeship dosent pay much until you have invested the time to learn the trade. imho, JAW


 

Wow that is low. As a labourer when I first started working, then through college, I went from 7-12, 15 on a good union gig once. 

When I started my formal training, I was making 14 first year, 18 next year, went up to 19.50, then to 22 third year, 24 upon red seal, which was a couple years ago. Benefits as well. This was a non-union job, here the union jobs pay better than that. That is just providing basic hand and power tools. 

I think you should pay an apprentice a decent wage to keep them interested and not stray for a job where they can afford to take their GF out for a nice dinner once in awhile, and look forward to a j-man wage. If they show interest, work hard and show dedication, why not.

Depends on the area too though, here the cost of living is one of the highest if not the highest in the country, so it's all relative.


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## Tony Mac

Out of 7 apprentices I have had over 20 years of building 3 of them turned out to be great tradesmen and are carving their way through their own businesses with great success. The other 4 it just wasn't them or life led them onto another path. Yes the market will come back and so will the young..


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## ATXwoodman

FRAME2FINISH said:


> but whatever you do don't put all your eggs in one basket, this is very important not to go for the easy money,
> 
> *make sure you get a clientel started and if you are good they will keep ya busy imo*.


I think this is one of the best posts in the thread. 

TRUST is the most important thing in this economy for us. Since very few people know a good carpenter, word of mouth has become the most important advertising.

The minute you turn just one person's dream into a reality you instantly get a foot in the door of their entire personal network. The minute your client shows off and brags about their new completed project, you shoot right to the top of the list for their friends...even if they weren't really planning on doing a project. It's like Johnny Appleseed...or maybe more like the Ebola virus:thumbup:


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## csv

When I was out of high school I knew I wanted to work with my hands. Not knowing what, I applied for apprenticeships in several fields. Initially I got really close in the electricians union, 2 board interviews, than failed color blind test and never got any further. The others I didn't get much response.

So I started looking at technical schools after a year in CC. I ended up taking welding technology. I got 6 structural welding certs, many being all position unlimited thickness certs, and 2 pipe certs.

After my 1st year I applied for apprenticeships with ironworkers and pipefitters. Ironworkers gave me a huge runaround, no field experience. Pipefitters even bigger runaround, not enough letters of recommendation from people with enough clout.

Tried getting jobs with independent fab shops and what not, no field experience no dice.

Took a job welding at a railcar repair facility for the summer. I thought this will at least give me some field experience. Ended up working there for 3 years. 

At the time I felt like no one wanted to give a chance to a 20 year old kid. I had the drive, heart, and the passion for it. 

Ended starting with a remodeling company due to relocating and no welding jobs available.

Not really sure where this is going, just feel like when I was looking for apprenticeships, finding one willing to train was few and far between.

Its a same because the number of skilled people fixing to retire is astonishing.


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## trouttacular

Personally, I think a big change for our industry is needed. Whether or not it is coming or if it is even possible is another story. A big part of that change would involve the perception of our industry; how we view it from the inside and how others view it from the outside. 

I don't know how many times when someone asks me what I do they reply with "I've done that" and proceed by stating that he/she is now a line cook at some restaurant. As if doing carpentry work is something you can go and 'just' do, or that its easy enough to do, or a good little gig... or something.

Most people don't really take the trades as a serious 'career' option or choice. Its just a 'job' and a job anyone can get and do, its labor work. Its been pounded into a lot of students head's that they need to get a college education and gain employment amongst the thinking industry. Otherwise they'll end up in the labor industry. Matthew Crawford's "Shop Class as Soulcraft" talks about this better than I can (great book, I suggest it to those who haven't read it). Its a matter of how we value work.

Can money be had in the trades, yes. As the OP states a lot of good veterans are retiring and there isn't many to replace them; there's a ton who will fill the slot but not the shoes. But I would like to see people enter the trades based on respect for it and a genuine thirst for knowledge of it. I feel getting people to join the trades in pursuit of money would be a disservice to the trades. Join to gain knowledge, for the constant challenge and the constant problem solving and critical thinking. Join because its what you feel you have to do. From that there should be a rise in respect for the trades and the wages those who do it deserve.

Perhaps once this is started and/or reached people will stop buying a sidewinder saw at HD and call themselves a carpenter. And with that we'll have a better industry standard of work and rates.

There... that's my rant and









Sorry if this got preachy or off topic but I needed to get it off my chest.

T


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## BC Carpenter

trouttacular said:


> Personally, I think a big change for our industry is needed. Whether or not it is coming or if it is even possible is another story. A big part of that change would involve the perception of our industry; how we view it from the inside and how others view it from the outside.
> 
> I don't know how many times when someone asks me what I do they reply with "I've done that" and proceed by stating that he/she is now a line cook at some restaurant. As if doing carpentry work is something you can go and 'just' do, or that its easy enough to do, or a good little gig... or something.
> 
> Most people don't really take the trades as a serious 'career' option or choice. Its just a 'job' and a job anyone can get and do, its labor work. Its been pounded into a lot of students head's that they need to get a college education and gain employment amongst the thinking industry. Otherwise they'll end up in the labor industry. Matthew Crawford's "Shop Class as Soulcraft" talks about this better than I can (great book, I suggest it to those who haven't read it). Its a matter of how we value work.
> 
> Can money be had in the trades, yes. As the OP states a lot of good veterans are retiring and there isn't many to replace them; there's a ton who will fill the slot but not the shoes. But I would like to see people enter the trades based on respect for it and a genuine thirst for knowledge of it. I feel getting people to join the trades in pursuit of money would be a disservice to the trades. Join to gain knowledge, for the constant challenge and the constant problem solving and critical thinking. Join because its what you feel you have to do. From that there should be a rise in respect for the trades and the wages those who do it deserve.
> 
> Perhaps once this is started and/or reached people will stop buying a sidewinder saw at HD and call themselves a carpenter. And with that we'll have a better industry standard of work and rates.
> 
> There... that's my rant and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if this got preachy or off topic but I needed to get it off my chest.
> 
> T


I agree completely, and i've read crawford's book.

People think anyone can do this stuff, and it is just a matter of being handy or something. Little does one realize how much is involved until you actually start learning it.

People need to realize this instead of hiring their unemployed "handy" cousin and think they will get the same results as a professional. 

As well, there needs to be an increase in wages for professional carpenters, IMO, that is one major reason I like working for myself. Why are carpenter's pay scales not on par with a plumber or sparky? seems like a decent wage only comes with time working for a decent company, union, or few and far between for an initial hire. 

I guess the problem is too many guys with a saw and a little exerience calling themselves carpenters, happy to be making the wages they are because it's better than what they were making at some other job. Certain employers need to stop their hiring practices of people like this, and then complain that they can't find good help.

Hopefully as more retire, the demand will be up for the true tradesmen, and the payscale will reflect that.


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## trouttacular

BC Carpenter said:


> I agree completely, and i've read crawford's book.
> 
> People think anyone can do this stuff, and it is just a matter of being handy or something. Little does one realize how much is involved until you actually start learning it.
> 
> People need to realize this instead of hiring their unemployed "handy" cousin and think they will get the same results as a professional.
> 
> As well, there needs to be an increase in wages for professional carpenters, IMO, that is one major reason I like working for myself. Why are carpenter's pay scales not on par with a plumber or sparky? seems like a decent wage only comes with time working for a decent company, union, or few and far between for an initial hire.
> 
> I guess the problem is too many guys with a saw and a little exerience calling themselves carpenters, happy to be making the wages they are because it's better than what they were making at some other job. Certain employers need to stop their hiring practices of people like this, and then complain that they can't find good help.
> 
> Hopefully as more retire, the demand will be up for the true tradesmen, and the payscale will reflect that.


Yep, yep and yep.

I think one of the reasons, at least for my area, for the lower rates for carpenters compared to plumbers and electricians is what you have to go through to be called a plumber or electrician; years of documented training then testing. Only after that can you start a business. Where in our trade you can start a business the day you buy your first saw. You have guys starting contracting businesses without any experience of the work. Which means they don't now the worth.


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## nailit69

My kid... perfect example, 17, no desire to do anything but "hang out" w/friends, etc..

He's helped me out before so it's not like he hasn't at least tried it but I offered him some summer work so he can save up for a car... not interested. He's into it for a few days... til he gets some $$$ in his pocket and then not so much. 

It seems to me that it's not just kids his age either, i've had guys work on the job for 2 weeks, get paid, and not show up for days... fired! 

The pool of guys that want to come up through the trades and learn a marketable skill is getting smaller. Then there's the "know it alls" little punks that think they invented the trade, they can shoot nails like crazy but can't build a set of stairs or a hand cut roof to save thier life. I've been doing this for 23+ years... if you think there's a better way i've probably tried it. Most not wanting to learn anything more than how to frame.

I've been beaten hands down by a young crew framing a house but when my house is framed... it's done, these guys have a pick up list a mile long. I try and explain that it's never going to be any easier to do your thing than when it's on the ground, do they listen?... no.

Out of 7-10 guys over the last 18 months... i've found 1 keeper apprentice and 1 true journeyman that I didn't have to "babysit". I'd just like to find 1 guy I can work with day in and day out and finish out my time and pass my knowledge on to someone that truly wants to learn it.

Another thing I truly laugh about is the crews these days rollin up in thier Honda cars w/hats turned sideways, piercings, baggy pants, rap/hip hop on the iPod :clap: Don't get me wrong, I don't mind it... back in the day it was pick ups, long hair, rock n roll on the home stereo turned job radio, coffee was the only energy drink available, no cell phones, no texts, and NO SHORTAGE of good guys wanting to build for a living

Ahhh, I miss the good ol' days


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## Tom M

trouttacular said:


> Personally, I think a big change for our industry is needed.
> 
> I don't know how many times when someone asks me what I do they reply with "I've done that" and proceed by stating that he/she is now a line cook at some restaurant. As if doing carpentry work is something you can go and 'just' do, or that its easy enough to do, or a good little gig... or something.
> 
> Most people don't really take the trades as a serious 'career' option or choice. Its just a 'job' and a job anyone can get and do, its labor work. Its been pounded into a lot of students head's that they need to get a college education and gain employment amongst the thinking industry.


I agree 100% The president and everyone else is constantly telling you get an education and get a good job. Residential construction is footing the bill for increased regulations and knowledge, yet your costs are being driven down by undocumented workers or exempt homeowners. There is money to be made but it is very inconsistent and subject to lots of variables.
The definition of a "good job" has become unionized labor. We are starting to see civil service workers, teachers, cops, auto mechanics and trade unions where guys work for 20 years and then get a free ride for life and everyone non union is in a holding pattern or going poor. Pensions, vacation pays, double time ect....and earning 40 an hour plus. 
We have people in this business who charge that with all the overhead. There are risks of improper work being done like a deck ledger or a leaky tile job but the biggest risk taken is the security of your lively hood and that is worth a lot more money. So why would anyone want to get into construction in a residential level? I have 25 years in and maybe 25 more to go and I have to start wondering how much I want to chance earning what I should be making once in a while is worth risking getting paid well to be average joe in a union. My retirement portfolio is only worth what I put in it over the last decade.

I have always been against unions but I see the country being divided into have and have nots. What do these unionized people do when there laid off or retire young? They get another income and double dip. Often playing in our industry under the security of health benefits and guaranteed money enabling them to be cheaper.


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## Tom M

I dont mean to discourage the younger guys here, I appologize for that.

I alway have and still do love carpentry its my life but there are big issues in the industry and much to consider.


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## JR Shepstone

tom m said:


> The definition of a "good job" has become unionized labor. We are starting to see civil service workers, teachers, cops, auto mechanics and trade unions where guys work for 20 years and then get a free ride for life and everyone non union is in a holding pattern or going poor. Pensions, vacation pays, double time ect....and earning 40 an hour plus.
> 
> I have always been against unions but I see the country being divided into have and have nots. What do these unionized people do when there laid off or retire young? They get another income and double dip. Often playing in our industry under the security of health benefits and guaranteed money enabling them to be cheaper.



I don't want to start a sh!tstorm with this union vs. non-union stuff, but everyone rags on the unions, whether it's government (police, fire, etc, etc) or teachers, or construction workers. Everyone blames them for the downfall of the American system and whatnots, but in reality, it's because of the unions that we got things like an 8 hour workday, and a decent wage, and tolerable working conditions. And I understand that comparing union to non-union is like comparing apples and basketballs. 

But the thing that gets me is how union people get condemned for getting things like a decent wage, and healthcare, and a pension. What's wrong with that? I also understand that if you work for yourself that you have to pay for all of that on your own, and really, it's terrible that with the illegals, and the Joe Sh!t the Rag Man's that come in and do a $5,000 job for $1,000. That's not right.

The thing that gets me is that I don't think that there's ever a chance of going back to the days when you could run a business and make decent money by delivering a well-built product, without having to worry about some schmoe coming in and under-bidding everything.

This has been mentioned on this sight somewhere before, too, but I think a lot of it lies in the whole go to college and become a doctor, or lawyer, or some sort of pencil pusher. The trades become condemned to being labeled as remedial jobs that the kids who didn't understand physics or civics well enough in high school end up doing.

I know I'm rambling and this might not actually make any sense but in all reality, in my personal situation, and maybe just about everyone else's, we just need to push forward and do what we need to do to survive. It's a cut-throat world, sink or swim. And all we can hope for is that someday it will turn around somewhat and people will take us seriously, and respect what we do for what it's worth, and understand that we all need to make a decent living, no matter how we do it, be it doctor, lawyer, teacher, union, non-union. 


Hopefully we can all make some kind of small positive change in our world for the better. 

Good luck all.


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## Tom M

You are correct. The unions created good rights and ideal work conditions that reward time invested. Its the right of the rest of us whom have declined to 1980's earnings while the unions never step back.

In residential construction most labor is topped out at $20/hr with no bennies. Not exactly the kind of money to raise a family on. So its a dead end or go independant.

Also we're in an industry that if you followed all the rules of employment, installed to manufacturers specs or above and charged what you you should, you may never sell a job. You would be too expensive unless you got lucky. Thats why people cut corners.

So basically if your great at what you do and install at the highest standard your seldom rewarded. But you could be mediocre at best in a union and do quite well.


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## katoman

Lots of good points guys, thanks. Here's how and why I do it - number one is I do this because I love it. I believe if you don't have a passion for what you do you will be mediocre.

I do top quality work only. This eliminates 90% of the competition. The hacks just don't have the skills. I make sure the client knows this and this is why the work is expensive.

I charge almost always time and materials at a higher rate than union rate. If the HO doesn't want top end work then they are the wrong client.

I'm absolutely jammed workwise. I turn down work every week. The few other really good carpenters I know are also extremely busy. The moral of this story is that if you are really good at what you do there will always be high end clients for you.

They simply will not hire some hack who is maybe going to ruin their home. Focus on leaning your trade and being the best at it. 

Unions have their place, but then I would be doing what they want rather than doing the work I want to do. Sometimes it's a trade off.

The future for the skilled is just going to get better, not worse. The demand is already there, and when things pic up it will be even better.

Best of luck to all.


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## Mrmac204

I think its a cycle, and while things might not be what they were, there will always be work for the tradesman who doe's good quality work.

Is there a shortage of good tradesmen? not right now, but in ten-fifteen years? perhaps. That's when the demand will drive up the wages, and people will flock to the trade schools.

My son is now on a seven month waiting list for welding at a local college. They run three shiifts, so that tells me that there's a demand for welders.


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## Tom M

Doesnt Canada have a much better economy than the US?

I think your right, there will be a shortage of skilled trade people.


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## Brutus

Mrmac204 said:


> I think its a cycle, and while things might not be what they were, there will always be work for the tradesman who doe's good quality work.
> 
> Is there a shortage of good tradesmen? not right now, but in ten-fifteen years? perhaps. That's when the demand will drive up the wages, and people will flock to the trade schools.
> 
> My son is now on a seven month waiting list for welding at a local college. They run three shiifts, so that tells me that there's a demand for welders.


Lucky, when i applied for welding 6 years ago, there was a 3 YEAR waiting list... If BC or NS gets the ship building contract, Im sure they will be DYING for welders.


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## onthelevel

*There is a future*

With all these ignorant Ho's using hacks and the rest DIY' (do it yourselfers) there will be a lot of work in the future. 
Lots of mold remediation. Redoing showers and kitchens. All this crappy work will have to be repaired in the future.

Plus over time different jobs go in and out because of supply and demand. For example how many people went out and got computer degrees thinking they'll make big money?? Only a few years later to find that all the computer jobs are being outsourced to India for 4,000 bucks a year.

Six years ago when everything was pumping everybody and their mama was a contractor. Now everybody's going out of business. 

Can't outsource carpentry work. Machines don't do it yet. So there is lots of hope for the young PROFESSIONALS... Just don't give up. Keep grinding.


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## Brutus

onthelevel said:


> .
> 
> Can't outsource carpentry work. Machines don't do it yet. So there is lots of hope for the young PROFESSIONALS... Just don't give up. Keep grinding.


Ikea. :laughing:


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## Premier_929

kyle_dmr said:


> I'm signed up for the long haul. 22 years old, own my own taking chances. Everyone I talk with tells me prices have never been this low, and I am making it alright on this kind of money. Can only wait till it becomes a good market in 5 years or however long it takes.


wait till you have a mortgage, then see if the $ is still good:sad:


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## FrehouseRemdlin

katoman said:


> Lots of good points guys, thanks. Here's how and why I do it - number one is I do this because I love it. I believe if you don't have a passion for what you do you will be mediocre.
> 
> I do top quality work only. This eliminates 90% of the competition. The hacks just don't have the skills. I make sure the client knows this and this is why the work is expensive.
> 
> I charge almost always time and materials at a higher rate than union rate. If the HO doesn't want top end work then they are the wrong client.
> 
> I'm absolutely jammed workwise. I turn down work every week. The few other really good carpenters I know are also extremely busy. The moral of this story is that if you are really good at what you do there will always be high end clients for you.
> 
> They simply will not hire some hack who is maybe going to ruin their home. Focus on leaning your trade and being the best at it.
> 
> Unions have their place, but then I would be doing what they want rather than doing the work I want to do. Sometimes it's a trade off.
> 
> The future for the skilled is just going to get better, not worse. The demand is already there, and when things pic up it will be even better.
> 
> Best of luck to all.



Katoman,

thanks so much for the encouragement and passion for the trade. I am 25 and have grown up with a carpentry background. My Father branched out on his own 10-12 years ago after work got slow for his previous employer. As long as i can remeber i have been on a jobsite, Picking up whatever skills i could muster, and doing my best to improve on them daily. When i became an official employee around the very time the buisness was started ( yes that does mean i was 13) I worked after school and summers. I did it because i loved the work and not because i had to. Even now , I am a proffesional Firefighter and Paramedic and help run a successfull GC buisness on my off days , not because i have to, but because i have a passion for the craftsmenship and skill of a trademen. I Love both my jobs and take alot of pride in the work i do. I also agree with you Katoman, that if the customer isnt willing to do it the right way, then they are talking to the wrong person. Our work is based totaly on word of mouth and personel reference. No marketing or adverstising, and we have never needed it. Our work stands for itself and people are glad to wait for us if they have to. Again Thanks for the encouraging words.


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## godson

I concur i am in the military, but went to construction school in replace of a regular public high school, and i am still investing on knowlege and text to keep up with the ever changing field.


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## livingsoulsdie

I'm 25 . About 8 years ago I started working for a contractor picking up garbage and running out for materials for $7.50 hr. I didnt even know how to use a tape measure <-- yes I was that GREEN. I stuck with it. Now I run most of our jobs make the material lists, etc, etc, etc & can do almost any task that needs to be done efficiently. Now I make triple what I used to make read books all the time and am totally addicted to my work. ohh well one day I will venture out on my own but I just cant figure out when that point will be. I'm comfortable right now with my living situation and I think I will just continue this for a few more years till I am a little bit more knowledgeable about the business , instead of taking the learn as you go approach.


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## footballfan

I am 18 now and all I have ever remembered is me wanting to work with my hands in a trade or on a construction site all my life so far ever since I can remember I followed around friends and family working on their houses that are in trades learning what I can and getting my hands dirty on weekends, I have spent countless hours reading and researching how certain things are done and different methods tools and materials just for my own interest. The thought of getting up and doing something I love doing every day in my near future has me excited. Sure I make mistakes and it sometimes discourages me but it’s part of learning a trade they don’t say you learn from your mistakes for any reason it makes you that much better of a craftsman. With kids who want to get into trades and get worried because they hear the trades are dying but reading some of the stories and advice on this forum show trades are in need more than ever and is nice getting mentoring from guys who want to see the trade live on.


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## jessitompkins

Just remember that this is not the first time that the housing market has crashed. Ask any of the older carpenters about the housing crash that happened 30 years ago. Here in Maine they were bulldozing houses because they would not sell. The market will come back and all the hacks that cant hack it will be gone.


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## mk5065

dibs16 said:


> Im with you kyle. 23 and heading out on my own. I feel like there is a lot more people like us that learn as much as we possibly can as early as we can, and then venture out on our own. I feel like it's difficult to find an employee to work year after year without any ambition of owning his/her own company. Not sure if this is for money or "glory" but hey, it is what it is.
> 
> Sure you and I may not know everything, but we're also taking chances to learn on our own dime, but at the same time I am always doing everything I can to learn more. I almost wish I could book enough jobs to hire a more experienced carpenter than I, maybe that will be down the road.


I must say I like your attitude. I'm 37 and have been doing this for 20 years now. I have had guys work for me and learned a lot from them. The learning never ends. Remember that you are the owner. You do not always have to be the best carpenter that works for you!


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## dibs16

mk5065 said:


> I must say I like your attitude. I'm 37 and have been doing this for 20 years now. I have had guys work for me and learned a lot from them. The learning never ends. Remember that you are the owner. You do not always have to be the best carpenter that works for you!


Thank you, I appreciate that. Well I'm 25 today, still running my own show but mostly as a sub. Moneys decent and still have opportunities to learn everyday from the gc I've been getting work for, who is a great carpenter.

While things are busy with this gc I need to market, and get my construction supervisors license in order to get bigger jobs and hire a crew when we part ways.


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## princelake

I'm 25 and i've been trying to do carpentry since out of high school and i've found it very difficult. Right out of high school i was working for a new home builder doing trim work for 10per hour with an old guy in his 70's that screamed and yelled at me and yet didnt want to teach me anything because i wasnt his son. i got tired of being treated like garbage so i moved on to a different new home construction company where i got treated with no respect and no one to treat me anything. being at the bottom of the barrel getting laid off. i then got myself a job in a cabinet shop for $14 per hour building cabinets and custom countertops where i learned some skills but the U.S crashed and that was where most of our work went so i was laid off again. i worked a new different renovation jobs till i finally kinda gave up and started working in restoration. half my job is painting and drywall and i do some trim work, not really carpentry. i'm getting just under $20per hour, they gave me a brand 2012 van that i take home at night with gas paid and i get health benefits. im making it by but not doing exactly what i seen myself doing. i found it a real tough go and nobody around to apprentice under to get my papers. i wouldnt really recommend carpentry to up and comers unless things start to change which i dont see happening. i recommend if your wanting to take a trade do plumbin, electrical or hvac. lots of my buddies i went to school with that took one of these trades is now licensed and making $30 something per hour. carpentry is so general and so uncontrolled.


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## livingsoulsdie

princelake said:


> i recommend if your wanting to take a trade do plumbin, electrical or hvac. lots of my buddies i went to school with that took one of these trades is now licensed and making $30 something per hour. carpentry is so general and so uncontrolled.


For one without a frame there would be no houses to plumb or do electric in. There is also nothing general about carpentry. It is a more complicated trade than electric or plumbing. Not only do we always have to learn how to use tons of different tools we also have to learn different ways to construct buildings differently every time the codes change. If you want a job where nothing really changes go for electrical of plumbing. I learn something new everyday and it will never end. Some people just aren't cut out for this type of work & if carpentry was so general than you would have no problem working.


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## Premier_929

livingsoulsdie said:


> For one without a frame there would be no houses to plumb or do electric in. There is also nothing general about carpentry. It is a more complicated trade than electric or plumbing. Not only do we always have to learn how to use tons of different tools we also have to learn different ways to construct buildings differently every time the codes change. If you want a job where nothing really changes go for electrical of plumbing. I learn something new everyday and it will never end. Some people just aren't cut out for this type of work & if carpentry was so general than you would have no problem working.


He is right!


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## princelake

i meant general as in there is to many different types of carpentry and its not regulated. You can get licensed and all you do is rough framing or say just trim. I feel carpentry should be more regulated as a trade and divided into rough carpentry, finish, form work, etc, etc. so guys can specialise in certain things. i just worked at a house last week where a few months ago the homeowner hired a licensed carpenter to hang some doors in his house. the guys showed his license and the homeowner thought he was in good hands. the guy completely butchered the doors and the homeowner kicked him out of the house before finishing and the homeowner asked how you even got your license and the guy was like i do basement foundations i dont normally do doors! it takes years even decades to learnt to do everything and well and many dont get the opportunity to learn it all. and theres sooo many guys that are "carpenters" self proclaimed guys hacking up houses everywhere. you dont see average joe blows starting electrical companies, they have to be licensed to work in houses. carpentry should be the same. carpentry is so general and unregulated!


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## BC Carpenter

princelake said:


> i meant general as in there is to many different types of carpentry and its not regulated. You can get licensed and all you do is rough framing or say just trim. I feel carpentry should be more regulated as a trade and divided into rough carpentry, finish, form work, etc, etc. so guys can specialise in certain things. i just worked at a house last week where a few months ago the homeowner hired a licensed carpenter to hang some doors in his house. the guys showed his license and the homeowner thought he was in good hands. the guy completely butchered the doors and the homeowner kicked him out of the house before finishing and the homeowner asked how you even got your license and the guy was like i do basement foundations i dont normally do doors! it takes years even decades to learnt to do everything and well and many dont get the opportunity to learn it all. and theres sooo many guys that are "carpenters" self proclaimed guys hacking up houses everywhere. you dont see average joe blows starting electrical companies, they have to be licensed to work in houses. carpentry should be the same. carpentry is so general and unregulated!



It is, however a J-man carpenter will probably always have work, probably given a higher wage and seniority off the bat, etc. As a ticketed carpenter you can work union jobs, school district and municipality jobs, that need proper trade papers.

I've seen Journeyman plumbers competely screw stuff up as well, however since it is a more regulated trade, they do not have to deal with the "riff raff" who are handy, lowering rates across the board. 

That is where I agree with you that some aspects of it should be more regulated..However the reality is that when a door is screwed up Mr. HO is pissed but nobody dies. When a wiring job is done wrong, well you can guess. However with framing, if you can pull the permits, you can do the work. With finishing and whatever else, no reguation.


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## Gary H

Just got my union carpenter mag. Titled '' Canda's construction boom: Americans wanted now. Canada is starting a 10 year energy boom with huge projects coast to coast. Gives all the details of how to get a job there such as passports, background check, and must pass drug test. Seems like Canada is the hot place for carpenters for awhile.


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## CanningCustom

I'll hire some of ya's !!!! Get up here!!! That would be fun.


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## Brutus

Just an odd thought I had the other day, some what relating to this thread.

As some of you know, I went to college for this trade (I know right?), and am currently working on my apprenticeship to the Canadian Red Seal.

When I started school in September of 2006, there were 50 people in my class. All of varying backgrounds, ages, even a few women there.

I just went back for my C-block classes, and talked with the old shop hand, he said that he estimates less than 10 are left in the trade that started school the same year as I did.

What the hell? Are people that lazy? I just don't know why some even bothered. There was a 50% drop out rate after 1 year. 

With all you old guys retiring, and my generation not really giving an chit.... looks like bank roll for me.


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## Tylerb

Brutus said:


> With all you old guys retiring, and my generation not really giving an chit.... looks like bank roll for me.


Cheers to that!:drink:


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## CanningCustom

Brut ill retire right now, you can come take over for me


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## FramingPro

CanningCustom said:


> Brut ill retire right now, you can come take over for me


im so hurt right now :laughing::laughing:


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## JBrzoz00

The beauty of any skilled trade is the fact that our jobs will never be outsourced to another country.


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## Calidecks

A lot of People have put off working on their homes since the this recession reared it's ugly head. I have a feeling things will pop due to all the repair and upgrade needed. These homes won't fix themselves.


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## FramingPro

JBrzoz00 said:


> The beauty of any skilled trade is the fact that our jobs will never be outsourced to another country.


my exact thoughts :clap:
some Taiwanese infant can't fix your pipes over the phone 
so we have to do it :thumbup:


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## kyle_dmr

DrewN said:


> I just got my carpentry apprenticeship after two weeks of applying. I'm super green to anything carpentry. I'm starting at 15$ an hour with my own hand tools. I went to school for firefighting but have always been interested in carpentry and through demand for firefighters just isn't there. I'm shocked people were getting paid 8 bucks as first year apprentice, if it matters I live in a small city were cost of living is relatively Low. Can't wait to start!


15 is a GREAT wage to start at. Completely green, you wouldn't be seeing that from me until you prove your going to stick around.


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## DrewN

kyle_dmr said:


> 15 is a GREAT wage to start at. Completely green, you wouldn't be seeing that from me until you prove your going to stick around.


Yep I'm very grateful.


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## FramingPro

kyle_dmr said:


> 15 is a GREAT wage to start at. Completely green, you wouldn't be seeing that from me until you prove your going to stick around.


tell me about it


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## acestarservices

Your getting in pretty good at $15 an hour. ( just starting out ) around here ( Denver Co) greenies start out at $10-$12.
The $ 15 sounds good now , stick with it and learn, and you will be seeing those $18-$20 bucks an hour on those pay checks 
( hopefully)


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## AC&D

Their is some young carpenters with some skills out their that would school out most carpenters. These guys learned in on the job and got their license. No trade school straight up common sense


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## CanningCustom

AC&D said:


> Their is some young carpenters with some skills out their that would school out most carpenters. These guys learned in on the job and got their license. No trade school straight up common sense


Kyle seems to be of that crowd


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## woodworkbykirk

im booked learned and a licensed carptenter.. however i learned more from the non licensed guys than the licensed guys.. . now i piss off the local licnesed guys by showing them how to do it without the book.. then explain to the non book guys why its done and what code states.. 

i show them both up and get punched in the face and back of the head at same time for making em feel dumb:laughing:


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## CanningCustom

i'm 100% on site trained and mostly self taught, my first and only boss was a yelling, degrading, greedy man. I was part of a 17 man production crew.


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## RAbraker

acestarservices said:


> Your getting in pretty good at $15 an hour. ( just starting out ) around here ( Denver Co) greenies start out at $10-$12.
> The $ 15 sounds good now , stick with it and learn, and you will be seeing those $18-$20 bucks an hour on those pay checks
> ( hopefully)



5 years ago, I started my first carpentry job at $15/hr. Of course, that was 9 months before the recession hit...


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## Cutonce

I only got into building when I was about 30. Id been bumming around until then with no idea what i wanted to do. i was living in a backpackers and the guy also owned an apartment building. I started working for him doing minor repairs and found i was quite good at it.

I started buying Fine home building and Construction journal and reading them from cover to cover until the pages were worn out. I saved them all too. I started taking on bigger and bigger jobs and when someone would ask, "can you do this" i'd run off to the library and go read about it and then take on the job. I think the first couple of years i lost more money than i made, and i put that down to doing my apprenticeship. eventually i had a good knowledge of most things and enough knowledge to be dangerous in others. 

One day i met a woman who wanted me to fix her dishwasher. i guess i did a good job and a couple of months later she called and said she had just bought a mansion and could i renovate it! After you do one big job like that they all seem to keep coming and i was never short of work. I finally made the jump to buying and selling my own houses and then was lucky enough that i got out just before the financial mess of 2008. Now I travel the world and occasionally swing a hammer if I want.

Boy that was a big ramble! i hope this is what this thread was supposed to be about!


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## Cracktor

Hello,

Just read all the reply's. Glad to read positive reactions about job opurtunities in the future.
The situation in Europe seems similar; there has been a strong crisis since 2008. But i finished carpentry school in 2012 when i was 30 years old. And started my own company short after that.
Good to see more people have had the same struggle to learn and stay above water. The learning pad is really great, think about ways how to do new projects, inventing some nice new way to save time and money feels great if it works..
But like many others here i wonder sometimes if its going anywhere. I dont think i am the best, and i dont need to make a ton of money. But it feels very uncertain to rely on a business where people chronicly underpay. 
For now i dont know anything better to do, and i still learn a lot. The projects i take on are steadily (small steps  ) growing bigger, and paying also a little better. But i still feel like i cant do this all my life; mainly because its hard, risk taking work for just too less money.
For myself its ok, i can live of around €1500,- a month including the costs of my workshop and van. But i do not want to raise children on a budget like this. I dont have any plan for when i fall of a stair. If i work a big project as a subcontractor and the contracter is a crook (situations that do occur a lot imo) i could go bankrut..
What do you guys think? Just continue and keep improving? Or maybe focus more on the design and learn to work with autocad in adition to google sketchup..?


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