# Breaker question



## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

If all the other breakers are 2 pole, can you swap one of those to a quad breaker in a size that's available and then have room for a full sized 60?

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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Now you have.


I said colored BR

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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Sure looks like blue and gray to me.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Eaton makes no such animal. Bryant / Eaton BR are the same thing right?


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Sure looks like blue and gray to me.


Is that BR? Wasn't aware Bryant made a ul breaker for BR, but then again rarely see Bryant around here

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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Eaton is listed for Bryant replacement.

What I'd do is find four 120v circuits that can be combined into two. That frees up two spaces for a plain-jane 2-pole 20. Then replace the existing 20/50 quad with a plain-jane 60. Bam. Done.


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## micahmye (Jul 23, 2015)

Last I worked in a Bryant panel with that style breaker (colored trip levelers) a modern Eaton style breaker fit fine. 

You won’t find the pretty trip levers anymore though, maybe some of the wife’s nail polish?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I've never seen one that does that. Must be a new thing.


It's only available on the wall charger. The charger that comes with the car doesn't give you that option.


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> They're either Westinghouse or Bryant.


Westinghouse 


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Eaton is listed for Bryant replacement.
> 
> What I'd do is find four 120v circuits that can be combined into two. That frees up two spaces for a plain-jane 2-pole 20. Then replace the existing 20/50 quad with a plain-jane 60. Bam. Done.


Every breaker in the panel is already a 2 pole.


Mike.
*___*


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

This a sub panel?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

No this is the main panel.


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

To be clear I'm only wanting to add an additional 10amps to what's already there.


Mike.
*___*


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

But there’s no SP breakers at all?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Nope, no single pole at all. 


Mike.
*___*


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> But there’s no SP breakers at all?


I've been on a few service calls where all were mwbc on 2 pole breakers, no 1 pole

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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Nutz, imo


Mike.
*___*


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Eaton is listed for Bryant replacement.
> 
> What I'd do is find four 120v circuits that can be combined into two. That frees up two spaces for a plain-jane 2-pole 20. Then replace the existing 20/50 quad with a plain-jane 60. Bam. Done.


Damn you're good. That's why we pay you the big bucks!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

It's a fairly new panel from when they added about 2000 s.f. To the home. I thought for sure they'd have room. Nope. 

I think I'll check the igniter as TXelectric said and maybe I can combine the fan and the igniter. 

Although it does make me wonder why they didn't do that in the first place. 


Mike.
*___*


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Calidecks said:


> Nope, no single pole at all.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> *___*


Certainly makes combining things a bit trickier 

May just have to do a small sub panel next to the main. 👍


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

It's 200amp


Mike.
*___*


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Halfway there! Just gotta see what all is in there. Maybe ... Just maybe - Sparky will have to give up that 3 bucks from Leo!


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

He spent it on Tootsie Rolls


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Not really. If a proper service calc shows it's sized correctly, we all go about our day.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Not really. If a proper service calc shows it's sized correctly, we all go about our day.


That home was done by a very reputable builder. Probably worth 3 mil. There's no doubt in my mind the panel calcs. 

In fact I have no reason to believe otherwise and neither do you.

You were looking for something but couldn't get it, so this was your only nugget right? Lol

Mike.
*___*


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Calidecks said:


> That home was done by a very reputable builder. Probably worth 3 mil. There's no doubt in my mind the panel calcs.
> 
> In fact I have no reason to believe otherwise and neither do you.
> 
> ...


I wasn't "looking" for a damned thing. Stop thumping your chest. I was simply asking for more information.

Get over yourself.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Phishing? Lol

Relax I'm just yank'n your chain! 


Mike.
*___*


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Yes... fishing for answers. Not totally unfounded accusation.

"Lol".


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

My panel calcs are waayyy off.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Yes... fishing for answers. Not totally unfounded accusation.
> 
> "Lol".


You are wound tight aren't you? 


Mike.
*___*


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Calidecks said:


> You are wound tight aren't you?
> 
> 
> Mike.
> *___*


Not so tight I start making false accusations against people I don't know.

Simply put: A $3mil house with a panel chock full of tandems means some corners were possibly cut when it comes to sizing the panel. As a professional, I'd look into it. I never claimed it was not done right. I'm simply asking for more information. Instead, I have you and your crap.

Remember what I've said in the past about answering electrical questions here? I guess that ends tonight. We have people like you to thank for that.

I'm done in this subsection. Go ahead and have the last word. I won't be back to read it. So make it count.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Not so tight I start making false accusations against people I don't know.
> 
> Simply put: A $3mil house with a panel chock full of tandems means some corners were possibly cut when it comes to sizing the panel. As a professional, I'd look into it. I never claimed it was not done right. I'm simply asking for more information. Instead, I have you and your crap.
> 
> ...


Yet you are making accusations of an overloaded panel you know nothing about. 

And you are free to answer or not answer anything you want. No one forced you to do anything.


Mike.
*___*


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Calidecks said:


> That home was done by a very reputable builder. Probably worth 3 mil. There's no doubt in my mind the panel calcs.
> 
> In fact I have no reason to believe otherwise and neither do you.
> 
> ...


Really it seems like he's looking out for your best interests. It's entirely possible that a panel was loaded near or to capacity in a very costly home. There's no law that says it has to have plenty of room for future expansion. When a panel is full of splits, it starts to become suspect that it's possibly loaded to the gills, and it's really in your best interest to see if it is or isn't before you start adding a bunch more load. 

If I were wanting to add an engine hoist to beams underneath a 2nd floor deck, wouldn't you suggest I make sure the beam is strong enough for both the deck and the hoist? That's not saying the deck was built wrong, just that it might not be enough for the added stress.

If it was built with that 50 in place, I seriously doubt another 10 would push it over, but nobody can be certain without investigating a little bit.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

smalpierre said:


> Really it seems like he's looking out for your best interests. It's entirely possible that a panel was loaded near or to capacity in a very costly home. There's no law that says it has to have plenty of room for future expansion. When a panel is full of splits, it starts to become suspect that it's possibly loaded to the gills, and it's really in your best interest to see if it is or isn't before you start adding a bunch more load.
> 
> If I were wanting to add an engine hoist to beams underneath a 2nd floor deck, wouldn't you suggest I make sure the beam is strong enough for both the deck and the hoist? That's not saying the deck was built wrong, just that it might not be enough for the added stress.
> 
> If it was built with that 50 in place, I seriously doubt another 10 would push it over, but nobody can be certain without investigating a little bit.


The most I was going to add was 10amps. 

Did I add it all up to see if another 10amps would've been okay? No I didn't and I'm not going to either.

The reason I didn't send a picture of anything more was to prevent a pissing match, yet here we are.


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

smalpierre said:


> Really it seems like he's looking out for your best interests. It's entirely possible that a panel was loaded near or to capacity in a very costly home. There's no law that says it has to have plenty of room for future expansion. When a panel is full of splits, it starts to become suspect that it's possibly loaded to the gills, and it's really in your best interest to see if it is or isn't before you start adding a bunch more load.
> 
> If I were wanting to add an engine hoist to beams underneath a 2nd floor deck, wouldn't you suggest I make sure the beam is strong enough for both the deck and the hoist? That's not saying the deck was built wrong, just that it might not be enough for the added stress.
> 
> If it was built with that 50 in place, I seriously doubt another 10 would push it over, but nobody can be certain without investigating a little bit.


I wouldn't recalc the deck beam if I was only adding one joist either.

Do I know for sure without the Calc? Nope. You know why? Because I seriously doubt it would be an issue.


Mike.
*___*


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Calidecks said:


> I wouldn't recalc the deck beam if I was only adding one joist either.
> 
> Do I know for sure without the Calc? Nope.
> 
> ...


Yeah I mean - thats a good point, and if it's built as it is now, you're adding 10 amps to it, I seriously doubt it'd be over. I doubt it was built over ... but idk. Electricity can burn your house down without warning in your sleep while the car is charging. I'm terrified of fire. I had an electrical fire where if my dog hadn't have gone nuts on me waking me up, I might not be speaking with you today. Poking around to make sure isn't terrible advice ya know? I don't think it's saying your house sucks, or your builder, or you by extension or anything. Just - idk, just be safe man that's all.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

If adding 10 amps would be the proverbial stick that broke the camels back, the issue isn't the last stick! 


Mike.
*___*


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Straw....lol


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Also let's not forget the 60 draws 48 amps max.


Mike.
*___*


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Yeah, unless that quad 50 is already an add on, and it was loaded really really close to being overloaded originally. Then it's adding 60 to the panel as originally configured.

What's with having a 200A panel already full of nothing but splits though? Don't see that too terribly often. Then again - I don't have to deal with any resi electric anymore. The new houses I see a lot of times are pretty full, but full of all splits?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Only if all the sticks are being powered at the same time.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Robie said:


> Straw....lol





Mike.
*___*


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

smalpierre said:


> Yeah, unless that quad 50 is already an add on, and it was loaded really really close to being overloaded originally. Then it's adding 60 to the panel as originally configured.
> 
> What's with having a 200A panel already full of nothing but splits though? Don't see that too terribly often. Then again - I don't have to deal with any resi electric anymore. The new houses I see a lot of times are pretty full, but full of all splits?


I suppose a large house with lots of outlets that will likely never be used. Only there because code forces them to be.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

smalpierre said:


> Yeah, unless that quad 50 is already an add on, and it was loaded really really close to being overloaded originally. Then it's adding 60 to the panel as originally configured.
> 
> What's with having a 200A panel already full of nothing but splits though? Don't see that too terribly often. Then again - I don't have to deal with any resi electric anymore. The new houses I see a lot of times are pretty full, but full of all splits?


It wasn't. When the HO did the addition and panel upgrade it was on the original plans. He wanted it for a welder that he never got.

In fact he installed cabinets in front of the welder outlet.


Mike.
*___*
 i


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Ok, I gotcha now. I thought this was YOUR house for some reason! I guess I thought you 100% did nothing but decks that cost more than some houses. And then I saw "3 mil house" and thought - I'm in the wrong business, I gotta figure out how to build some fancy decks!!!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

smalpierre said:


> Ok, I gotcha now. I thought this was YOUR house for some reason! I guess I thought you 100% did nothing but decks that cost more than some houses. And then I saw "3 mil house" and thought - I'm in the wrong business, I gotta figure out how to build some fancy decks!!!


It's a customer who became my friend. I did this as a favor. I did build him a deck that was around 100k though. 


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

It was this deck










Mike.
*___*


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

That decks as big as my house


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Anyway - I'm still convinced I'm in the wrong business. What does THAT guy do? I need to learn how to do it.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

He's an executive for Coors. 


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Also that charger is GFI protected. 


Mike.
*___*


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## Porterfarm (Apr 1, 2019)

480sparky said:


> I've never seen one that does that. Must be a new thing.



I always thought you have to size the ckt According the to nameplate.....

Guess it's not much different from motor wiring...


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

The line coming in to the meter from the poco doesn’t supports everything in the house running at the same time either. Just don’t crank up the welder to work on the boat dock at the same time the 20 Ton AC is blasting and the Tesla is charging. When I set up for a new service install the tech. wants to know what the highest load is going to be and then they size their cable to the minimum required.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Big Johnson said:


> The line coming in to the meter from the poco doesn’t supports everything in the house running at the same time either. Just don’t crank up the welder to work on the boat dock at the same time the 20 Ton AC is blasting and the Tesla is charging. When I set up for a new service install the tech. wants to know what the highest load is going to be and then they size their cable to the minimum required.


I had that issue several years ago, job originally had 60A panel, someone put in a 200A panel at some point, I was doing the kitchen and my electrician looks at everything and said panel meeds to be correctly installed or replaced and POCO need to change line to the house which at the time took 4 months


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Porterfarm said:


> I always thought you have to size the ckt According the to nameplate.....
> 
> Guess it's not much different from motor wiring...


The difference is software. I think.


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I'd like to apologize to 480sparky I just had a tooth extraction and might have been a little pissy. "Lol"

Also I want to thank him and everyone for your help.


Mike.
*___*


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Well, the saying "it's like pulling teeth" exists for a reason. Hope you're doing alright!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

smalpierre said:


> Well, the saying "it's like pulling teeth" exists for a reason. Hope you're doing alright!


I have one tooth sorta hang'n in the back. Wife says instead of saying, I'm gonna brush my teeth". I can say, "I'm gonna brush my tooth!"


Mike.
*___*


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Fortunately these days they can add new ones back.


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## GCTony (Oct 26, 2012)

smalpierre said:


> I'd be looking for anything I could combine. Not sure why it wouldn't have been combined though, *why would somebody run 2 circuits when they could have run 1? Maybe it seemed like the right thing to do at the time.*
> 
> Yeah - those splits are 2 breakers on the same bus bar tab, then another 2 on the next one. You get 0v from breaker 1 to breaker 2, 240v from 1 to 4, 0 from 3 to 4, 240 from 2 to 3.


I added a dedicated 20A for a friend (freezer). Built in the 90's, 2600 sq ft house, heat pumps nothing special. The 200A 40 space (CH) panel was full. Turns out each breaker fed each room. Even the half bath was on it's own circuit. At the time I guess it made sense but would never do that today.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

All bathrooms are supposed to be on their own circuit. Modern codes, a whole lot of bathrooms require 2 circuits, even though the loads on them with modern LED lighting don't even come close to the limit on 1. But .. yeah I watched a guy home run every room to a breaker in a house. Little bitty house - panel FULL!


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

smalpierre said:


> All bathrooms are supposed to be on their own circuit.


Two bathrooms can share a 20 A ct circuit. You just can’t put the lights and fans on the same circuit.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Ok so I don't have a code book handy - maybe some people are misinterpreting the code.

Although a bathroom may seem like a small space that might effectively be served by a circuit extension off an adjoining room, the NEC now requires at least two dedicated circuits for each bathroom:


A 20-amp receptacle circuit for plug-in appliances. All receptacles must be AFCI and GFCI-protected, either by circuit breakers or individual receptacles that offer AFCI and GFCI protection.
Light fixtures and wall switches must be on a separate circuit. A 15-amp circuit is minimum, but this is often a 20-amp circuit, especially if there is a heat lamp integrated into this circuit. The vent fan may be powered by this circuit. 
A separate circuit is required for a whirlpool tub or any other large fixture or appliance in the bathroom. 
But I THINK the actual code uses the word bathroom(s) - the (s) would indicate it could serve more than 1 bathroom?

*210.11(C)(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits.*_ In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, one or more 120-volt, 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom(s) receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(D) and any countertop and similar work surface receptacle outlets. Such circuits shall have no other outlets._


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Pretty sure you can put the lights and fart fans on same circuit - IF it's a dedicated circuit just for that? I'm really not sure, the codes can be a little confusing.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

smalpierre said:


> Pretty sure you can put the lights and fart fans on same circuit - IF it's a dedicated circuit just for that? I'm really not sure, the codes can be a little confusing.


Not on the same circuit as the countertop circuit, is what I meant. The lights and fans can be on any other circuit.

I’m just referencing what my electrician does on my houses.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Ok - so reading what I have of the actual code in front of me it looks like - 2 baths can share a circuit for recepts between the two - can they also share circuit for lighting / fans, or do those have to be 1 per bath? Because ... I have 2 bathrooms and they're ALL forked up. Some dingus cut into wiring and fed half the house off the guest bath GFI with wire nuts buried in insulation. So I kind of want to redo all that, I'm allergic to fire. One bath was originally on a 15a to gfi and a 300w wall fixture, nothing else.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

What I typically see is a half bath and hall (shared) bath will share a 20A ct circuit and the the MB might have its own. There will be (2) gfci receptacles total for bathrooms. 1 in the mb and 1 in another bath closest to the service that feeds the other bath ct without a home run. I have seen the mb on a shared ct circuit as well. Like when it’s directly above a bathroom on the 1st floor or something similar.


The lights and fans will share a circuit with hall lights, bedroom lights, etc. I don’t think it matters but I’m not a licensed electrician so don’t take any advice from me.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

When it comes to electrical on CT we only care about looks because we don’t let government tell us what to do.


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## G&Co. (Jul 29, 2020)

smalpierre said:


> *210.11(C)(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits.*


That is pretty clear and unambiguous. You need one 20A GFI countertop that cannot be shared with anything else. That clearly is intended for a hair dryer or similar appliance that takes up the entire circuit ampacity by itself. You wouldn't want to share it even if it was allowed. The lights can be shared with loads in other rooms.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

smalpierre said:


> Pretty sure you can put the lights and fart fans on same circuit - IF it's a dedicated circuit just for that? I'm really not sure, the codes can be a little confusing.


Outlets and lights need to be separate. The thinking being if you plug in a hair dryer and it trips you can still see.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Outlets and lights need to be separate. The thinking being if you plug in a hair dryer and it trips you can still see.


That’s not an NEC requirement.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

G&Co. said:


> That is pretty clear and unambiguous. You need one 20A GFI countertop that cannot be shared with anything else. That clearly is intended for a hair dryer or similar appliance that takes up the entire circuit ampacity by itself. You wouldn't want to share it even if it was allowed. The lights can be shared with loads in other rooms.


Then my electrician is violating code and the inspector is willfully ignoring the violation because he checks every gfci so there’s no way he’d miss it.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

The Code requires a 20A circuit for bathroom receptacles.

One circuit can feed receps in two or more bathrooms. But no lights or fans or anything else is allowed on that circuit.

OR, you can have ONE bath only on one 20A circuit. That can supply the receptacle, fan, lights.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> The Code requires a 20A circuit for bathroom receptacles.
> 
> One circuit can feed receps in two or more bathrooms. But no lights or fans or anything else is allowed on that circuit.
> 
> OR, you can have ONE bath only on one 20A circuit. That can supply the receptacle, fan, lights.


You're a lifesaver man!

So my original 1988 bathroom its a 15a, on 14/2 - which I'm sure was legal at the time. Its on the opposite side of the house from panel - yet somebody pushed another 14/2 to feed back to the heavily modified bathroom which happens to be right by the panel. They then proceeded to cut both those wires mid run for no reason, wire nut them back together (in different places) with no box...

That feed back toward the panel - it actually spiderwebs out to go to the close bath, some outside recepts, the (formerly garage space) closet lights and recept and the garage recept. Thats in a metal box thats flopping around, no connectors or bushings ... it's insanity up there.

So what I'm considering is basically - put the far (guest) bath back to its original 1988 condition, remove what they've fed off of it, and put a box in the attic for that "splice" they put in. Then run a 20A for the other bath that's close.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Guess I'll figure out what goes dark after the spider web is eliminated, and figure that out next


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## Djea3 (Jul 6, 2020)

135 posts and no definitive answer.
1. I would not trust that the calculations on the existing panel are correct. Recalc them.
2. If the panel is full then there is no cause to attempt to force fit anything into it. Especially since eventually the client WILL need another circuit or more work.
3. Sub-panels are CHEAP and the difference in cost between a 4/4 panel and a 20/30 or even a 30/40 circuit panel is NOTHING compared to the work involved.
4. If the current panel is exceeded by the calculations, then most likely a new service drop will be needed to upgrade the service. This means a new MAIN PANEL IS REQUIRED AS WELL.
5. ONE could easily install a 320/400 amp service with 200 amp passthrough to this panel (depending on layout). Cost of new panel is between 1500 and 3000 including necessaries, plus labor. Usually the service drop is paid by the utility. 
6. I actually question the size of the house against the 200 amp service knowing that an executive lives there. Most executives like toys and things that take power. He will exceed the limitations of this panel because of lifestyle most likely.

I had a rich as$h*^# with 2 teslas, a motor home plugged into a landline in the garage, as well as 2 davits and boats, one that took 20 or more amps just at dockside doing nothing. He wanted me to pull new dock service fro him from the sub-panel that charged his teslas and his Motor Home. It was 5K worth of time and wire and sub panels to upgrade the dock alone. He refused to consider upgrading to 320/400 amp. as It was he could only use the Tesla charger or the MH power.
Long story short. Someone quoted him XXX plus material and he had them add the dock line upgrade, using my cost savings method (I shouldn't have told him). he took that contractor and paid 200 over my bid in the end.
I can only hope he fries his cabinets under the loads he is placing on them.
If this guy is actually a friend, then do him a square deal. Tell him to get a true new calculation of the loads and to upgrade the entire service if it is even close. add a new panel with at least 20/30 circuit service, if upgrading the drop use a 400 amp replacement. It will be worth it in the end.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

He already has a sub panel. And I didn't add anything to the panel. I just deleted the welder and used that circuit for the charger. 


Mike.
*___*


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## Fourthgeneration (Jul 25, 2021)

Get a roof top solar panel and bury the electrical remodel costs in the solar panel costs...........

Don't forget a generator set provision....The black outs ARE coming to California.


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