# Can anyone draw a site plan?



## mstrat

I'm with KAP that it sounds like they're trying to protect their drawings and information...happens all the time around here. State your purpose to the board and possibly get yourself a lawyer.


----------



## QuickDraw

I pull Building Permits for customers and in that duty a site plan is needed by the Building Dept. so I have to create one.


----------



## QuickDraw

Contour info is readily available on the internet for a general starting place>

Here's one


----------



## QuickDraw

I don't plagiarize anyone's work it all comes from the public record. If it's on an Assessors map it's fair game, if it's in the legal description of the Deed it's fair game etc...

Here is the drawing


----------



## KAP

QuickDraw said:


> *I pull Building Permits for customers *and in that duty *a site plan is needed by the Building Dept. so I have to create one.*


You didn't answer what your customer contracted you for so I'll just assume that this was it...

Based on that, is it your position that your services are NOT in conflict with the AHJ's clear listing they defined for you in post #15 that you provided?

Whether or not you disagree with their assessment of the services you provide is really irrelevant... they set the definitions, terms, and licensing requirements for same... 

This leaves me wondering if this is your first project providing the services you described and if not, how is it that you've been operating providing those services up until now?...

Typically, anytime drawings are submitted by a trade, a license is usually involved as delineation of their knowledge/expertise to do so...


----------



## QuickDraw

I'm always empowered as the " Agent of the Owner" and we always pull the permit under "Owner Builder" at that level in California you are just like the owner submitting their own paper work.


----------



## KAP

QuickDraw said:


> I'm always empowered as the " Agent of the Owner" and we always pull the permit under "Owner Builder" at that level in California you are just like the owner submitting their own paper work.


Then it should be easy to answer the below...

KAP said:


> Based on that, is it your position that your services are NOT in conflict with the AHJ's clear listing they defined for you in post #15 that you provided.
> 
> This leaves me wondering if this is your first project providing the services you described and if not, how is it that you've been operating providing those services up until now?...


We can only go by what you've posted, and as such, it sounds like what you're providing as a service to your customer is in conflict with the AHJ requirements for same that you listed in post #15...

The reason it's irrelevant from a business perspective though, is that out of the two of you, only one is the AHJ... unless you have some iron-clad case to back you up on your position and how you're conducting your business, which doesn't seem to be the case based on what you posted, the business reality is, it sounds like if you want to continue to do what you're doing, you need to bring your services into alignment with the AHJ's requirements to do so...


----------



## QuickDraw

I can't find the three alphas that you reference "AHJ" in post #15 as to trying to figure out who your talking about.


----------



## Bull Trout

QuickDraw said:


> I'm always empowered as the " Agent of the Owner" and we always pull the permit under "Owner Builder" at that level in California you are just like the owner submitting their own paper work.




I don’t know California contract law, but it seems that even though you are an agent of the owner, you are not the owner, and would need to have what ever the state requires for you to operate legally to doing permitting for the owner 

as a gc I act as an agent of the owner when it comes to permitting, but I still have to be licensed, bonded, insured


----------



## KAP

QuickDraw said:


> I can't find the three alphas that you reference *"AHJ"* in post #15 as to trying to figure out who your talking about.


*A*uthority *H*aving *J*urisdiction... 

In trying to help you, it's pretty illustrative the questions you're skirting or choosing not to answer despite being asked multiple times... 

Not really sure what you're after at this point... unless you've got an alternative to it, such as you've been operating this way for years for example, any reading of what you posted in post #15 versus your stated service shows the two in conflict...

So from a business perspective, you either come into compliance to be able to offer the same services or... don't... and roll the dice...


----------



## Bull Trout

QuickDraw said:


> By just drawing a site plan and asking a question about something you can be accused of representing your self as a Surveyor. This is a Nightmare >
> 
> The Board hereby orders you to cease and desist from violating Business and Professions Code section(s) 8792(a) and (i). As an unlicensed person you do not have the legal authority to offer and/or perform land surveying. In addition, pursuant to Business and Professions Code section 8729, any business that offers to provide land surveying in the State of California is required to have a licensed land surveyor or legally authorized civil engineer as an owner, partner, or officer, who is in responsible charge of the land surveying work being offered and or performed.
> 
> The site plan that you prepared for the aforementioned project, on or about November 22, 2016, constitutes the practice of land surveying pursuant to Business and Professions Code section 8726.
> 
> Business and Professions Code Section 8792 (in pertinent part)
> Every person is guilty of a misdemeanor:
> 
> 
> (a) Who, unless he or she is exempt from licensing under this chapter, practices, or offers to practice, land surveying in this state without legal authorization.
> 
> 
> (i) Who, unless appropriately licensed, manages, or conducts as manager, proprietor, or agent, any place of business from which land surveying work is solicited, performed, or practiced, except as authorized pursuant to Section 6731.2 and subdivision (d) of Section 8729.




What are the exceptions listed in the chapter?


----------



## mstrat

There we go...so you're drawing site plans for a septic system, then gonna turn them into the county/state as if you're the owner who did it themselves...you're now in the territory of selling drafting services to a homeowner for septic and sitework...you have to see where this is getting more mucky as you go. Once you venture into selling your drawing to be used as a survey, you're in a gray area...one that can lead down a path. 

Our local Health Department prevents this by requiring all septic systems to be permitted, designed, and engineered by them...that way there's no 'I drew this myself and this guy made a cleaner copy for me to turn in' scenerios. 

Somewhat similar to say an electric license. We wired up all our houses until 10 years ago or so...then one day the local building inspection department got a new boss man and he said no more, you have to be licensed to do electric, or be the homeowner...now all the sudden a LOT of homeowners are mysteriously doing their own electric work. The problem is that those of us who do it properly and hire a licensed electrician are now more expensive than those who are doing things in the gray shady area of 'homeowner did all this' category. Then someone decides to turn you in and you act all shocked...'I didn't go outside my things, I was acting as an agent of the owner, therefore it's the same thing' is simply put not acceptable...

...you're now into a situation rather than calling the original surveyor from word go, and asking them how much to add a septic location to the plan they have on file, and paying them $500 or $1000...


----------



## hdavis

California regs look to be written pretty tightly.

I think trying to establish where the one boundary is sinks you. When you put that uncertain boundary line on the plan, you pretty .such nailed yourself, from what I can see.


----------



## QuickDraw

The septic designer pulls his own permit and my drawing would be used by him for what ever purpose he pleases. I can transfer his art work to my site plan with his authority. When I use a surveyor I transfer his work to my plan and he ok's it for it's usage and stamps it certifying it's supported by him. I only draw what the customer could have done and represent others intentions. All I am is the designer backed by professionals. I don't have to have an approval by the surveyor of record that created the original recorded distance of a parcel line if it is supported by the legal description and I can legally use the assessors map information without authorization because it's in the public record.

A survey is used to defend or establish a location or an elevation etc. and if it isn't needed or in dispute, no survey has been performed and nothing I depict falls pray to the representation of a survey. So I guess I will fight them all the way by defending my right to draw what is in the public domain that is not copyrighted and go from there. This really comes down to civil rights and Big Brother wanting to regulate everything. I will be fighting for everyone by standing up to their governmental overreach with a law that is two broad for today's technology given what is available on the net. 

Thanks for all your input and wish me luck.


----------



## mstrat

You're in California? Have fun with that...from what I'm reading, every post you make gives tiny bits of more information in this story...Started as artwork and now is a site-plan that was going to be turned in by you acting as an agent of the owner after you waved it in front of your buddy to stamp...


----------



## QuickDraw

I love pulling permits and have it down to a science. Who wouldn't want that working for you?
I'm the point of the spear and I set the table for the installation contractors to know what to do and where to do it. I am one of the few people that walk into a building dept. and everyone looks forward to helping me out. I get them what they need and always tell them "Yes". It's an open book test and ya just have to know how to talk to the animals.  
Like I tell someone when they ask me "What do you do for a living" my answer is always, "I draw pretty pictures and stand in line Really Good" you have to have the patience of Job to do what I do ..... lol


----------



## Rio

You can draw a basic site plan in California, the building department will usually let you know when they want a civil engineer or licensed surveyor to stamp them. For a straightforward residential project unlicensed people do it all the time, they also do simple commercial site plans .


----------



## QuickDraw

Rio said:


> You can draw a basic site plan in California, the building department will usually let you know when they want a civil engineer or licensed surveyor to stamp them. For a straightforward residential project unlicensed people do it all the time, they also do simple commercial site plans .


Not to hear the Deputy Attorney General say it. The ones that are coming after me think that you would have to go into Re-Education Camp for that mind set. They are trying to put me out of business just doing what you said is normal and common place. Keep your head down, they may be coming after you next... lol:whistling


----------



## Rio

Not worried about it at all, you should be able to find what the law specifically says, not sure how to go about it but I bet it's on line somewhere.


----------



## QuickDraw

Rio said:


> Not worried about it at all, you should be able to find what the law specifically says, not sure how to go about it but I bet it's on line somewhere.


Isn't it amazing that when you go to get your contractors license it's all about what the law is, but this topic is never addressed, what supporting documents (aka Site Plans) a contractor can generate so you don't end up where I'm at. :wallbash:

I have been digging in every dark corner of the net looking for any legal support on the State level that speaks to "Who can draw a Site Plan" and it's like hunting for hens teeth. The only thing I even got close to my version of reality was, something that stated that it's up to the controlling authority to establish there own version of what reality is, not what I getting fed by the state. It's cases like this that end up in the supreme court and that might be worth the price of admission.


----------

