# Article claims our line of work will NEVER recover



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

im not worried about the homeowner taking work away,they wanna do it and have the energy i say god bless them,the problem is there's too many of ''you guys''arty:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> im not worried about the homeowner taking work away,they wanna do it and have the energy i say god bless them,the problem is there's too many of ''you guys''arty:


You mean guys like me? Explain, I'm confused.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

oh...not you Mike,too many of those other guys:tt2:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> oh...not you Mike,too many of those other guys:tt2:


I realize I'm a rare cat and a somewhat unusual character. I also realize not everybody agrees with me....I'm cool with that, I'm used to it.:thumbsup:

Mike


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

ah a different drummer eh?


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

I can see why your customers smile...





You look just like Alfred E. Newman:laughing:


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Well, we can certainly have a good debate on this subject but lets keep it about facts only. If you want to keep it about fairy dust leave me out. I keep customers happy by being happy. The only reality is just that, people don't want me to say "Yeah this economy sucks". The truth is it only sucks for certain people.
> 
> But by all means fire away. I would be more than happy to talk about it. I will not, however make up words like opium. My business is real and I take it serious. So lets have a good debate and talk about the merits of talking about all the bad news to my customers. Does that actually work for you?
> 
> Mike


 
Well you're not my customer and this thread wasn't about how happy you are or what kind of joy you bring into the lives of your customers. It's about economic factors and the general climate of the industry that we are dealing with.

The facts are there right in front of your eyes.

-Layoffs & unemployment
-Wages are getting cut
-Cutbacks all across the board for businesses trying to survive
-Increased taxes on legitimate businesses
-More regulations, driving the cost of business higher
-Influx of unskilled workers. More "illegal" and underground transactions
-Short skilled labour pool

And it goes on and on. I'm repeating myself now and there are lots of things that we're not even talking about/haven't touched on yet. I'm looking to the future and saying it looks pretty grim for THE INDUSTRY as a whole. Why? Because of where it is and where it's headed as evidenced by EVERYTHING that is hurting it now and in the future and it doesn't look like it's going to change.

And it definitely won't change for as long as people like you and others like you keep wearing sheeps whool over your eyes, avoiding it and saying it's really not happening.

It's pretty bad that nobody else cares about us. It gets particularly offensive when WE don't care about ourselves.

I'm not talking about YOUR business. You're business is your business and I already stated this will not affect/possibly even HELP "Some" (keyword "some", as in the maybe 5-10% of the top guys) in the industry.

There's a difference between pessimists and realists.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

TimelessQuality said:


> I can see why your customers smile...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, Well, I smile all the time and I think people like that. I realize this economy really sucks for my brothers in construction. But trust me when I say the best medicine is positive thinking. You sales could get an easy 20% jump just by a few sales techniques. Some of my close friends in construction thrive on articles like this, the more they read they more they want to read. It pains me to also see their businesses suffer. Tme and time again they ask me for advice and I always tell them the same thing, attitude is the only difference. Heck, I'm not the best plumber I know, Tons of people are better at plumbing than me. But still, I do a good job and my customers are happy. I will not however, lose a job because of poor salesmanship. I spent years learning sales and falling on my face...never again, I learned from my mistakes and I actually created a small book of all my sales techiniques. It's not a big book, it's just a bunch of short notes to always remember on every sales call, or meeting I go to with customers.

Mike


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Heritage said:


> Well you're not my customer and this thread wasn't about how happy you are or what kind of joy you bring into the lives of your customers. It's about economic factors and the general climate of the industry that we are dealing with.
> 
> The facts are there right in front of your eyes.
> 
> ...


So what's your point? I know what the problem is, would you like me to do some magic to change things? Everything you listed is correct, of course it is.....but so what. 

Back to the original article....I for one think we are going to have a rebound. It's not my job to fix the economy and I wouldn't know where to start. 

I agree this thread got a little out of wack but this subject comes up every week and the answers are always the same. I can participate in talking about the bad economy but what would that do? How would that make our business better..........after all this is a contractor (business owner) forum.

Mike


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> I tend not to read things like this because it doesn't benefit me either way, instead I take a simplistic view. I have a market that needs my product and this market has a geographic location. The only thing I have an interest in is this and what I can do about it. I have my own competition and my only goal is to become more competitive and take market share away from them. I let them worry about things like the economy etc while I focus on my own company. Somebody has to be the best in the market, never take your eye off this and focus on other things.
> 
> This article just tells me once again how important a good marketing strategy is to the lifeblood of a business. The only thing that matters is my customers and how well I serve them. The economy means nothing.
> 
> Mike


So you basically reply to thread just to say you have nothing to say about it?

Maybe that's what I'm taking issue with. Some of us are seeing the industry going down, little by little, seeing what's happening to it can get a little personal and strike a certain chord.

I get it. You're happy and you don't care about the economy, your customers love you, you have a great "marketing" campaign, you're great at sales and you like to smile. I get it. I think we all get it. I get it.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Heritage said:


> People stop spending money = Fewer "projects" in the pool = Less work for everybody = Layoffs/Greater unemployment + The fact that other "laid off" workers bleed over into construction = Even MORE supply for LESS demand = Prices plummit, wages go down, low-balling takes on new heights = The perceived "value" of what we do plummits + Tighter regulations make it more expensive for us to do our jobs + (In Ontario at least) an 8% TAX INCREASE on all of our work, which drives more people to the "underground" + The fact that New "skilled workers" coming out of HS that WERE thinking of moving into construction are by and large now detterred = LESS skilled labour in the industry over the next 5 -10 years and beyond....what else did I miss?
> 
> Oh yeah, TV shows, Radio, Magazines, articles, every so called "expert" left/right/centre advocating ALL the things needed to deliver the death blow to any positive Public Image we MAY have had. Which is something that is now INGRAINED/and welded into the memory/perception of an ENTIRE GENERATION who will take this public image with them to the grave.
> 
> ...


 I have been trying to articulate this point before on this board and have been sighted as being negative. Anyone who trys to contradict any point in your post is delusional. Nothing wrong with being positive, but give me something to work with here, and there isn't anything. Green building? Yea right go price out a composting toilet and solar system. I read an article today that said people are withdrawing money out of their IRA's more than ever and it's not to pay for room additions, it's to survive. With a large number of people fighting to keep their homes or losing them they are not going to even call anybody for new gutters let alone any major remodeling or repairs. I can't believe that some people are still in denial about it. This is the beginning of a new decade and the winds of change always blow around a decade change. It doesn't look good for at least the foreseeable future especially if interest rates go up because everything will then inflate and our profits look poised to deflate. What to do? I didn't spend all these years learning this s**t to end up doing it for nothing


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Heritage said:


> So you basically reply to thread just to say you have nothing to say about it?
> 
> Maybe that's what I'm taking issue with. Some of us are seeing the industry going down, little by little, seeing what's happening to it can get a little personal and strike a certain chord.
> 
> I get it. You're happy and you don't care about the economy, your customers love you, you have a great "marketing" campaign, you're great at sales and you like to smile. I get it. I think we all get it. I get it.


I have a lot to say about it, it's just that you don't like to here the positive side. Ok, that's fine....let it go already. 80% of the population is in fact still working. If this is a contractor forum for business owners then I still fail to see your point, obviously this could go on for days and I'm not interested in that. As a business owner we should be focus on sales and being better at our business, I have an opinion and that's just part of life. To put words in my mouth and pretend as if I'm preaching about how great I am is a bit childish and also unfair. I do my best to try and help people succeed, if you can't participate in a positive manor than how else would you suggest. You keep drumming up new points to validate talking about a bad economy and your opinions on it. Again, and for the fourth time, your right it's a bad economy. I respect your own opinions but to trash mine doesn't really belong here.

I have no way of knowing how long this will last or if it will ever end. I just know I can only do my part in society by being positive and helping people.

This has got to be one of the weirdest and most pointless conversation I have ever participated in. To even suggest that being positive is a bad thing is nuts. 

Have a good night, I hope you find joy in your day on Friday.:thumbup:

Mike


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

The facts in front of me: 

I hired on 6 guys this year.
Sold more already than all of last year. (BTW last year was the best since I started in 04) 
Phone still ringing well
Happy customers

Those are the facts I see. 

Do I think a positive attitude has something to do with it?? You bet I do. When people comment about the "bad economy" I say "well I choose not to participate in a downturn" Usually their next comment is "how does that work?" and I say "well it must work well since we are selling more than ever". 
We are blessed for sure and I am thankful for it.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

RobertCDF said:


> The facts in front of me:
> 
> I hired on 6 guys this year.
> Sold more already than all of last year. (BTW last year was the best since I started in 04)
> ...


That's great to hear. Success stories like this are what's needed. I can tell, just from your attitude and sales numbers your probably an industry leader in your market.

Mike


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Hey Mike and Robert, Great that your doing well, but I think we are seeing a trend for a significant portion of the industry that indicates declivity. Some folks are going to have to re-invent themselves or fail, it's just that simple. Does Tony Robbins even cover that? Or is it Dale Carnegie? I have never been a believer in this pop psychology, pop culture crap. Either the numbers are there or they are not. Anybody who tells you "you can double your profits even in a down market by following these simple steps" is just trying to sell books


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Irishslave said:


> Hey Mike and Robert, Great that your doing well, but I think we are seeing a trend for a significant portion of the industry that indicates declivity. Some folks are going to have to re-invent themselves or fail, it's just that simple. Does Tony Robbins even cover that? Or is it Dale Carnegie? I have never been a believer in this pop psychology, pop culture crap. Either the numbers are there or they are not. Anybody who tells you "you can double your profits even in a down market by following these simple steps" is just trying to sell books


How about you try being positive for 6 months and compare your numbers... I mean after all your already plummeting it can't hurt you to try. 

I am always amazed by how people are so quick to criticize something they have never even tried. Just like when getting your 3 year old to eat peas "I don't want to eat them they are yucky!!" "Son, you have never even had them in your life" "I don't care they're gross!!" ...


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Oh yeah and I have never listened to any of the sales speakers cds or read their books (except for quotes on this and other forums). I used to suck at sales and went in just hoping I would be the lowest price so I could get the project, I was always blown away that people would choose others for a higher price than me... Now sometimes I am blown away at how low others are and they still picked our company.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Irishslave said:


> Hey Mike and Robert, Great that your doing well, but I think we are seeing a trend for a significant portion of the industry that indicates declivity. Some folks are going to have to re-invent themselves or fail, it's just that simple. Does Tony Robbins even cover that? Or is it Dale Carnegie? I have never been a believer in this pop psychology, pop culture crap. Either the numbers are there or they are not. Anybody who tells you "you can double your profits even in a down market by following these simple steps" is just trying to sell books


Your right about the trend it's in decline, a big decline. What's the solution? But the trend doesn't mean you will decline also. I am doing well but it's very hard work to kep it, but when you consider that I failed at business for a long time before I "got it" there has to be a reason right? When I was failing the economy was much better but now that I'm doing well the economy is much much worse. What happened? What did I do differently?

I'm not a 100% sure on everything I just know a few things I did made a big difference. I no longer have a TV, I don't listen to talk radio, I read stuff like Dale Carnegie etc every day without missing a beat, I make my customers laugh no matter what, and I could go on and on. Can you double your sales? Of course you can...it just requires following a different set of rules. Is it hard? Hell yes, it's the hardest thing I have ever done.

All the sales and motivation books say the same thing so you only need one. The reason it's all the same stuff is because it works. 

Want to know why I refuse to talk about the economy? I'll tell you the God honest truth about me. I used to be like that and it got me bad results. I used to only talk about the not so good stuff in life. I used to say the same thing Heritage is saying, I know this routine all too well.

Then one day it hit me like a ton of bricks, I realized what one fear the general population has. People, in general, don't want to feel worthless. It's a fact of life and for years I could never make that connection. People are very afraid of this and that's why, as a contractor I was failing. I never took this into consideration and my customers looked at me as a "too much of a reality guy". I fixed that by simply making them feel like a winner. Nothing about this economy can make a customer feel good so I don't talk about it. 

Buy a Dale Carnegie book for .25 on Amazon and follow each chapter to a T. If you follow it you will see results like you never could have imagined. I have nothing to gain by you reading the book and I don't know you from Adam all I'm doing is trying to help you so you can see what I see, feel what I feel, and enjoy what I enjoy. Once you try it and follow it, if it still doesn't work then call me a liar and I will agree with you.

As for me, well let me just say that I'm nothing special. I just decided to change.
Mike


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

RobertCDF said:


> Oh yeah and I have never listened to any of the sales speakers cds or read their books (except for quotes on this and other forums). I used to suck at sales and went in just hoping I would be the lowest price so I could get the project, I was always blown away that people would choose others for a higher price than me... Now sometimes I am blown away at how low others are and they still picked our company.


I was dumb as a brick and had to read sales books etc. The first time I read this stuff I laughed at the thought of it. Now it's a religion for me to stay focused 100% of the time. You can try and help people all day long but the ego is a strong thing it prevents a lot of peoples success.

Mike


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> My sales increase month after month so I must be doing something right. I just know that each and every one of my customers have no inclination to do the work themselves and that's why I charge what I do. I have actually helped many people do there own plumbing and it gives me even more sales because of word of mouth.


Yup! Word of mouth will trump all other marketing schemes in "bad" times. Back at the turn of Y2K when people were hording their money, all the contractors were whining "poor me, there ain't no work out there". Really? I had more than I could handle.

Educated customers are the best ones to have. I've had plenty who wanted to do work themselves, and I'd say fine, go for it. One that comes to mind was a skim coat project, HO thought "how hard can it be?" I let them struggle with the mud for about a half an hour, then I walked over and offered to show them how to hold and handle the drywall knife. I told them that once they get the technique down it will go fairly quickly. After 5 minutes of watching me do it, they put their tools down and said "it's all yours", a half hour later the room was skimmed and the HO was pleased they didn't have to do it themselves. Best money they ever spent, in their opinion.

The point is, use the Golden Rule in how you work and conduct business, and you will quickly have a large and loyal following. That article means nothing to me or how I operate, nor do statistics on the housing market or construction industry (FWIW, statistical data is always skewed to "prove" the perspective of the writer or point of the article ). My clients pay me to do what I do because I'm good at it and have a top notch reputation and references from upstanding pillars of the community. They pay me because their time is better spent doing things that they're good at, and leave me to what I'm good at. You create your own niche and fill it, then you don't worry about what everyone else is doing because it doesn't affect you.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

A. Spruce said:


> Yup! Word of mouth will trump all other marketing schemes in "bad" times. Back at the turn of Y2K when people were hording their money, all the contractors were whining "poor me, there ain't no work out there". Really? I had more than I could handle.
> 
> Educated customers are the best ones to have. I've had plenty who wanted to do work themselves, and I'd say fine, go for it. One that comes to mind was a skim coat project, HO thought "how hard can it be?" I let them struggle with the mud for about a half an hour, then I walked over and offered to show them how to hold and handle the drywall knife. I told them that once they get the technique down it will go fairly quickly. After 5 minutes of watching me do it, they put their tools down and said "it's all yours", a half hour later the room was skimmed and the HO was pleased they didn't have to do it themselves. Best money they ever spent, in their opinion.
> 
> The point is, use the Golden Rule in how you work and conduct business, and you will quickly have a large and loyal following. That article means nothing to me or how I operate, nor do statistics on the housing market or construction industry (FWIW, statistical data is always skewed to "prove" the perspective of the writer or point of the article ). My clients pay me to do what I do because I'm good at it and have a top notch reputation and references from upstanding pillars of the community. They pay me because their time is better spent doing things that they're good at, and leave me to what I'm good at. You create your own niche and fill it, then you don't worry about what everyone else is doing because it doesn't affect you.


Well said Spruce!

Mike


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Well said Spruce!
> 
> Mike



Once in a while I get lucky ...


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## FreedomBuilders (Apr 18, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> The number one thing to remember is give give give. That doesn't mean things away, what it means is to give as a person....as a company. The next phase of business will be ran by companies that give first receive later.
> 
> Mike


I whole heartily agree with this. It's the principal of sowing and reaping.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I think a lot of guys who have thrived are mostly guys whom have found a niche and dot.com themselves as that need. Many of which started at the hieght of remodeling craze and found an internet presence as the world was becoming more glued to the web. They must have drawn in a boatload of leads from net.

I talked about this with a close friend on dropping the General title & focusing on a single phase of contracting. We would still be general but only with good leads but campaign on a specialty.

Even with that its very selective. Kitchen remodeling went through the roof a while ago you could find a kitchen showroom every mile on the road.....that sector has taken a severe hit. The issues and economony still loom heavy. 

I did plumbing back in the late 80's for about a year or so but decided not to persue it.....truth be said "when you need a plumber===== you need a plumber" The master plumber is always in need regardless of the economy.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

What will happen first:

*People will stop building/remodeling houses
or
*Douglas A. McIntyre will be dead (he's the author of the article)

:shifty:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

tom m said:


> I think a lot of guys who have thrived are mostly guys whom have found a niche and dot.com themselves as that need. Many of which started at the hieght of remodeling craze and found an internet presence as the world was becoming more glued to the web. They must have drawn in a boatload of leads from net.
> 
> I talked about this with a close friend on dropping the General title & focusing on a single phase of contracting. We would still be general but only with good leads but campaign on a specialty.
> 
> ...


Every showroom around me is closed up....It's crazy to see that. I think your right about websites in the past. Even that however is going away, I see a shift to an "active" online pressence instead of static pages. Things just keep changing and changing.

Just got a service call to a trailer home, and it's going to be really ugly and the guy doesn't have money. Gotta run, have a great day everybody.

Mike


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

I've got to agree with the op here. He's stating facts about the INDUSTRY...not his business, not your business, not your buddy's business....the INDUSTRY as a whole.

Any interjection of how well YOU are doing is great...but it's not germane to what the INDUSTRY is doing.

I'm always amazed that anyone wanting to discuss the state of the INDUSTRY, which overall, _is_ piss-poor right now, is invariably inundated with posts about how well a certain person is doing....and then it's either alluded to, or outright stated that the op is "negative". 

The discussion is about the real state of the INDUSTRY as a whole. I can't quite wrap my head around why some who _are_ doing well, enter into the conversation regarding the state of the INDUSTRY and then add nothing to the conversation about the state of the INDUSTRY? It's very odd.

It comes across as if you either:

a) Don't understand the what's going on with the INDUSTRY, or want to bury you head in the sand about it.

b) Don't realize that you're not discussing anything in regards to the op...you believe that YOUR situation is the topic of discussion. (it's not).

Nothing wrong with adding what/how you're doing, but if _you don't go on to discuss the subject of the post_ (and then denigrate the op as "negative", etc)...why do you post in discussions like these?

And I'm all for being positive, I'm a pretty positive guy (I don't think it's possible to put everything into your business if you're not).

Discussing the realities that our industry faces is not akin to chicken little, it's about discussing facts and realities.

I feel I'm going to do very well over the next few years, but I also feel very strongly that our industry _will not..._and I have no problems discussing the state of the industry and being positive about my own situation.

So, is _that_ negativity? Or just being informed?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Also, I agree with Mike in regards to plumbing and electrical (add roofing to the list).

Those trades are involved with a lot work that homeowner's _have to have done_. It's not a want, it's a _need._

Hard to put off calling the plumber when you got $#!+ flowing down the hall every time you flush the toilet. :laughing:

...or calling a roofer when you have water dripping into your living room whenever it rains.


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't believe many articles given to the AP to report to the Sheep of our society. They are always slanted to convince the gullible followers. However this article doesn't seem to be govt influenced and is very truthful unlike most released news stories. 

I been in the construction trades for 3 decades and longer if I talk about helping my dad even earlier then my teen years. I have never seen anything like this. We had past recessions but nothing compares to this DEPRESSION. By all neutral non govt figures we are in the deepest depression since before The Great Depression. But we can not publicly admit this can we. The mere mention of the "D" word would send financial markets into a spiral so out of control that complete economic collapse would be imminent. 

The economy has lost more jobs last year then in any year since WW2, payroll has dropped to it's lowest level since the great depression, the construction industry has been decimated....we know this personally, factory output has shrunk to it's lowest in our history, once the most powerful companies on earth....companies (GM and Ford) who spelled true American might are dead in the water and have drowned, more then a hundred trillion dollars in real estate equity is lost forever, housing sales are the lowest in the history of America, over a trillion dollars in lost retirement nest eggs gone...poof.......bla bla bla....

History will show something else. When all great downturns appear to hit rock bottom, all the investors come out of the woodwork buying up everything in sight. But as history shows, all suspected rock bottoms always seems to have found an even lower low. More money lost.

Home prices will continue to fall for years. More foreclosures. As govt grows, jobs will shrink even more. 

For those who say the economy will recover, I say why, just because other economic downturns have? Why is that a deciding factor that this one will? That's a pretty poor indicator. I'm glad I'm old enough that I will not be around to see the coming complete economic collapse.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks Jimmy

Now I don't even wanna go to work today.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

You're too easily swayed, he wasn't talking about you.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

he wasn't?

What about that "sheep" thing?


But I have been swayed into heading out the door...Thanks JF!


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Hey Mike did you tell that guy in the trailer park to watch your video while you were heading over? Then he could be prepared.

Gotta do some ball busting ;>) Hope it goes well.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

tom m said:


> Hey Mike did you tell that guy in the trailer park to watch your video while you were heading over? Then he could be prepared.
> 
> Gotta do some ball busting ;>) Hope it goes well.


I could start a thread with what happened here. It was one of the greatest service calls I have ever had. Turns out the guy is a 78 year old roofer and is about as funny as a person could be. He has cancer, one lung, and his trailer is just about as old as he is. 

All the other plumbers refuse to do work on trailers. His neighbor is the same age and is blind. I fixed his leak and didn't charge him, instead we sat on the portch together with the blind guy and picked on Doctors and Lawyers.

I just listend to them tell countless stories that made my guts hurt from laughing so hard. The guy is really hurting for money so I refused to charge him. I was having so much fun I really didn't want to go but I had to because I have to go get my son a birthday present from a store located a long ways away.

When I left I came home with two new friends, in fact I'm going over there next week to help him with something he can't do by himself.

On the way home I noticed he put $125 inside my cubby on the center console of my truck......go figure.

Mike


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

How do you do a service call, chat it up with the customer and go shopping in about 2 1/2 hours?


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> The guy is really hurting for money so I refused to charge him.





Mike's Plumbing said:


> On the way home I noticed he put $125 inside my cubby on the center console of my truck......go figure.


I've learned over the years that sometimes people need to compensate you, even if you don't want them to. For times like this, if you don't want to charge them, say so, but also be gracious and accept payment if they insist. I'm willing to bet that the guys enjoyed your presence as much as you enjoyed theirs, they felt paying was the least they could do for you.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Good Mike.........for all the difficulties in the business most people are great. Being likeable is a great trait in the sales world.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

CookeCarpentry said:


> How do you do a service call, chat it up with the customer and go shopping in about 2 1/2 hours?


Ha, I just stopped home to grab the wife and baby so we can head out together. Fridays I like to not work and do only paperwork....so I'm behind schedule........as usual!

Service call is 5 minutes from my house, it took 15 min of work, the rest was pure laughter.

Mike


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

J F said:


> I've got to agree with the op here. He's stating facts about the INDUSTRY...not his business, not your business, not your buddy's business....the INDUSTRY as a whole.
> 
> Any interjection of how well YOU are doing is great...but it's not germane to what the INDUSTRY is doing.


Is the industry hurting, yes. Should we be concerned? IMHO, not really, what relevance does the industry as a whole have on what you do? There are some markets that are worse than other, some are much better, yet if you read that article, the world has ended, has it not? If the OP is more concerned about that article and the industry in general, rather than focusing on his clients and niche, he's going to become just like all the other out of work tradesmen. I don't see how focusing on the positive isn't germane.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I should mention that he asked me (once again) about the economy, it never fails. My response was "I'm so busy trying to pay bills I don't have time for the news". Then I just sit back and listen to the customer talk. Except this guy was way different, he just hammered on hospitals, lawyers, and politicians in a way that was so funny it's not even describable. The pure language alone I can't repeat on a forum with you classy folks.:laughing:

Everything he said was the dead honest truth. He cut his arm and the bill was 8,000 so you can imagine how funny it was to hear his response.

Art made my day with his laughter, and the one legged blind guy was as cool as they come. What an awesome Friday and it's not even half way over.

Now I have to go deal with my pissed off wife waiting in the truck....gotta go.

You guys have an awesome day today and make the best of it, life is good!

Mike


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

J F said:


> What's frustrating about your post mike is the above statement. It seems any real discussion in regards to the reality of the industry right now, can't happen without this kind of statement being made.
> 
> You can choose to see it that way, but why the comments like the above, and others regarding other posters being negative, when discussing the issue and the realities we as a nation and industry currently face.


I see your point and understand, point taken. Having gone through what I have I want more than anything for others to be able to have what I have and see what I see. Nobody should have to go through what I have, I'm still to this day picking up the pieces with my wife.

When I see people talk about the downfalls of this economy I see a potential for them to fall into the same trap I found myslelf in...and I don't want that to happen.

A apologize if it gets taken any other way , that's not my intent.

Mike


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

You've always come across as a good guy mike (you almost rank up there with willie already :laughing, that's what surprised me about your posts here.

I respect what you went through and love the fact that you want to help others, I think that's what most decent people would want to do...you do carry it a bit further than most. :w00t:


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

A. Spruce said:


> That is not my intent and apologize if my comments have offended anyone. I will, however, stand by my statements that change occurs within the individual, which is what affects the industry as a whole. I'm not quite certain how this can be taken as negative or off topic.





Heritage said:


> What are you talking about?


I my opinion, what he's talking about is by far the most valuable piece of insight contained within this thread, which has the potential to actually help anyone who is _ready_ to hear it. Obviously, none of us as individuals, or collectively for that matter, can change the facts of our current economic crisis; however, we can change our outlook on the future and do our utmost best to maintain positivity (as opposed to negativity) regarding each of our futures in this industry - ergo change as individuals. 

I firmly believe that if an individual strives to consistently focus on the good aspects of life in general, and particularly as it pertains to our businesses, then such an individual stands a far greater chance ending up reaping positive rewards. I mean what has one got to lose? What is the risk of doing so? Burying your head in the sand as life passes you by? I'm not going to begin to assume that even a slight number of folks capable of such are currently in business, and if they don't have the foresight needed to constantly evaluate and modify their businesses, then it stands to reason that they won't be in business for long if they aren't able to have such an awakening.

I am of the camp that thinks, with ever fiber of my existence, positive things are attracted like a magnet to those who maintain a positive outlook (not easy but certainly doable if we put in the necessary effort), and strive to keep out of their minds any negative aspect (not saying NOT to acknowledge such negative things as our current economic quandary).



> I think you should call Allan Greenspan & all the other economists out there and reveal to them the TRUE reasons as to why the industry is in the gutter. Apparently...it's "Changes occurring within individuals"
> 
> Right, that's the reason. We brought this down on ourselves. The entire Construction industry, some hundreds of billions of dollars of the economy, some hundreds of thousands of workers/employees/employers, all the Regs, Taxes, illegal work, the underground economy, the phenomenon of unskilled work....ALL THESE THINGS STEM FROM: (Wait for it).......*wait for it*.........ME!:thumbsup:.......and you.


I'm sorry but I'm just not perceiving he is inferring such a thing.

The truth is we as individuals, or collectively as a group of contractors, have extraordinary little to absolutely no control over what has actually caused and effected our current soured economy and industry as a whole. Think about it - Do our elected officials actually listen to us regarding passing most all legislation, or do the gazillions of dollars and lobbying influences, or even party philosophies have more to do with which way our elected official vote on any give piece of legislature placed before them. It seem pretty obvious, if anyone who cares to look into such matters, that our elected officials (in 11/10ths of all governments) are far more adept at garnering control and money and power more than they are concerned about liberty and justice for all. So, I'm personally left wondering what in the world are our options at this point, short of nullification and/or balkanization? Certainly neither option would be a pretty sight, but what is a viable solution to all these problem which you and the OP have brought up? I truly don't know? But what was made mention of here by some posters to maintain positivity is quite helpful in our personal pursuits. Which is why we are in business isn't it?

In my limited knowledge of these matters, it seems that what lies at the root of a lot of our problems in this country and current economy are the result of government mandates, the federal reserve, and fractional reserve banking, which tends to never fail to subsequently lead to such messes as we are currently mired in. But what can we do about it? I'm not real clear on how talking about it here in the forum will accomplish much, if anything. I will certainly hold out hope that I am mistaken. Further, voting someone out of office in order to clear house, etc, hasn't really worked for us too well over the past century. We typically just end up voting in more of the same elements that have the propensity for control and power, much like the one who were just voted out of office. If they are not so inclined at the beginning of their tenure, it seems holding such high office tends to lend itself for corruption as their power is realized or increased.

But once again from my limited understanding, many of our problem in our society are due to bubbles. What causes bubbles? The excessive creation of money, debt, and credit. Who is responsible for the creation of money, debt, and credit? The federal reserve and fractional reserve banking.

All of that money being pumped out has to go somewhere. It's been sloshing around for years, first into the tech stocks, later into housing, some sloshed into oil. Too much money sends artificial signals regarding demand and the best allocation of scarce resources. The result is bubbles, unsustainable increases in the prices of assets.

Certainly there are speculators in the markets who have been vilified by the media at every opportunity. But markets are huge, and not so easy to move, ergo speculators are not the driving force. If speculators drove up the price, what drove it back down? What happened to those same speculators when oil went from $147 to $37? Markets don't always do what one wants, but that's just too bad. Anyone who believes they can single out a few individual actors as responsible for a major change in a market as liquid, global, and essential as oil should share whatever they are smoking. But the federal reserve with its unending torrent of money certainly has the ability to wreck pretty much everything, including our society. Certainly government regulation and subsidies - both examples of violent interventions in peaceful trade - distort nearly everything in the world today. 

For example, one of the reasons governments so hate speculators, and MSM lapdogs so cheerfully repeat their lies, is that speculators are notoriously difficult to coerce. You can't make people buy - even if the President wants to force Americans to buy his insurance, it will come to naught. You can't make them sell either. Speculators step up and buy when no one else will, and sell when no one has product to offer. Shut them down, and the markets freeze. Try to coerce them, and they take their money elsewhere. Tie them down with silly rules about insider information, and they stop trading, stop talking, or trade in another venue. 

Vilification of speculators serves the same purpose as demonizing gun owners, home schoolers, tea partiers, liberals, conservatives, left wing, right wing, etc. It distracts and entertains the mob so that the serious looting can continue unchallenged. But what can we realistically do about it?

One last point; the silver quarter I would have spent on gasoline in 1964 buys as much or more gas today as it did then. The price of gas hasn't gone up, the value of the dollar has gone down. And once again, what are we able to do about it? I say the proper solution is to do what we can with what we've got to work with and do our utmost best to better our, and our loved ones, lives by whatever means are available. For if and when the balloon goes up, or the sheet hits the fan, and our economy were to collapse, who is left to take care of us then? Answer: ourselves.

I would really enjoy discussing the particulars of this subject on what the potential propositions would be to effect a positive change in our industry, based upon addressing the aforementioned problems. I for one, am just not sure where to start or which way to go for real solutions, not temporary band-aids.

Seems to me Mike, A Spruce, among a few others, are offering the best possible alternative for those of us who truly want to better our situations and not become entangled in the mire.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

good lord  not again :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Alright you positive guys got me, I give up. No real discussion on the national health of our industry will be allowed.

It will all be about what any *one* individual is doing because that's all that counts.

I'm positive about one thing...it _is_ happy hour. arty:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

tom m said:


> Dude you have my respect many a good man have suffered. It takes great strength to not let it beat you.
> 
> Back to topic even with all of what JAY and Mike said that is still only part of what the trouble in the work force.
> 
> ...


Ya know Tom that's a really good post. 

I don't know what to say because everything you said is right I'm afraid. I have a theory, so bare with me.

I think we, as business owners, have only one real option.....and it's not an easy one. If the original posters article is true and it might be, this is our only recourse.

We have to be the best. What I mean is we need to study marketing, technology, and business to the next dergee and we need to master it.

In plumbing I deal with the same issues day after day just on a different scale. Everybody and their brother with a tool bag says they can do plumbing. What I did was change my marketing.

My marketing is not perfect and in many situations it fails but overall I'm the best marketer in my area. It's made a big difference because I'm able (usually) to hand pick my customers. Before I started marketing I would take any work that came my way and many many jobs were a bust. 

Things have now changed and the only reason I can think of is because of my marketing. Like I said though it's not perfect and i'm still working on it.

The greater lesson here is to use your competition to your advantage, I really think that's all we can do anymore. Your competition, if it's anything like mine, does below average marketing. Use this to your advantage.

We can't cut prices anymore, we are wearing ourselves thin, and we have all cut our expenses to absolute minimal....What's left? Marketing is all I can think of.

I have my marketing pretty organized and I thought of starting a thread on it and posting everything I do. I rethought that however and it might not be of any help. All our companies are different in one way, shape, or form. But in the end we all have to market well and do it with absolute precision.

It's funny what you listed because plumbing is really no different, that list still applies. I think your list also applies to other industries outside of construction as well and this, combined with the OP article makes a business owners job pretty hard indeed.

Mike


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Jeff you get the







award for posts that don't have to do with the op.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Mike's new avatar








Do good things, good things happen.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Beers (or soda) on me for all posters to the thread.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

J F said:


> good lord  not again :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:


See that's the kind of comedy that we need around here!:laughing:

Your a really positive guy ya know that.:w00t:

Mike


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

:laughing: I'm positive I've been worn down.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

TimelessQuality said:


> Mike's new avatar
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw that show twice when I was up north visiting family. I love it, whoever came up with that show has the same personality as me. That girl on that show is awesome.

Mike


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Can one of you guys start a thread (or _another_ thread) about the power of positive thinking...please, please, please, please :innocent:

I've got some zig ziglar quotes I haven't thrown around for a few years. :w00t:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

J F said:


> You've always come across as a good guy mike (you almost rank up there with willie already :laughing, that's what surprised me about your posts here.
> 
> I respect what you went through and love the fact that you want to help others, I think that's what most decent people would want to do...you do carry it a bit further than most. :w00t:


That's because I actually went through it, I'm like Rambo and all the sequals. Somehow I actually lived to tell the tale.

Your right on one thing for sure, it is happy hour and I'm getting ready to grill out brats and watch my grill while my neighbors come over and take all my beer from me.

Mike


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

:laughing: Have a good time.


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

J F said:


> Jeff you get the
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're just too kind!

Unfortunately, I was responding to Heritage's post, which I considered on topic. But apparently not well received (from here on out I promise to try and not upset you testy veterans around here).

Oh well. Sometimes I wonder what one has to do to get a complimentary drink here.... for it sure has driven me to :drink: and what's worse, I've never stopped to thank anyone either!arty:


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

I don't know whether to shoot Mike or hug him. But I have to admire his perserverence, to continue to on with a cheery attitude in the face of the worst period in construction in 30 years or more is amazing. Heritage makes some very valid points though that should not be discounted. Not the least of which is the lowballers and the perception by the public that we are all a dime a dozen now. Just today I have a lady say that seems like a lot of money for that. I replyed that if I could sling my tools over my shoulder and take the bus I might be able to do it for half. I got a laugh and she said I'll call some others and if they are about the same price I'll hire you


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## the hammer man (Sep 16, 2010)

I have to agree. I think if you keep your eyes open, adapt, adjust, and overcome-you can stay alive in any market. The money is still being spent-you just have to watch the trail and see where it's going-then serve it.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

A little info for those living in denial:http://www.leap2020.eu/GEAB-N-47-is...States-of-Austerity-Towards-a-very_a5168.html


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

Irishslave said:


> A little info for those living in denial:http://www.leap2020.eu/GEAB-N-47-is...States-of-Austerity-Towards-a-very_a5168.html



Yes, I do agree we are in a sad state of affairs concerning our economy, our industry, and society in general. And to live in denial of such is, without doubt, not wise. I also firmly believe it will more than likely get worse before it gets any better. 

But the main point I was attempting to emphasize, in my previous post above, is "what can we realistically do about?" I sincerely would like to know what are our options in causing any positive change to our economy, our society, and especially our industry.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Jeff G said:


> But the main point I was attempting to emphasize, in my previous post above, is "what can we realistically do about?" I sincerely would like to know what are our options in causing any positive change to our economy, our society, and especially our industry.


Exactly, all the pep talk about how to hoard the little work out there doesnt answer any of the issues or matters on the wall street end or with the industry workforce.

The government cant find the answers nor could anyone here. We have evolved to a point of insolvency. We end up fighting with each other searching for answers.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Irishslave said:


> A little info for those living in denial:http://www.leap2020.eu/GEAB-N-47-is...States-of-Austerity-Towards-a-very_a5168.html



I'm confused, who is living in denial? We've all agreed that the state of affairs is quite dire. What some of us are proposing are means for the individual to maybe be able to weather the storm.

Some of you want to keep the conversation strictly about how bad the state of the industry is, what good does ranting about it do. We got here through no fault of our own, and it will either get worse or recover regardless of what we as individuals do, why not focus on what we CAN do for ourselves, which is create a business model/plan/goal that will help insure our own survival?


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## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

For those of you that are doing better than ever, consider this:

What would of happened if you did what ever it is your doing now some years ago when a lot more people had jobs? :thumbup:

For those of you that are doing better than ever, consider this:

You are the minority.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

jmacd said:


> For those of you that are doing better than ever, consider this:


Did someone say that they were "doing better than ever"? We all feel what's going on with the economy and industry. It has affected the way we all do business.




jmacd said:


> What would of happened if you did what ever it is your doing now some years ago when a lot more people had jobs? :thumbup:


Life is a learning process. Things that work keep doing, things that don't work quit doing. One should always be looking for new ways to be unique, that keeps business coming to one's door. If one doesn't do this, then it doesn't matter what the economy is doing, the business is not going to make it.




jmacd said:


> For those of you that are doing better than ever, consider this:
> 
> You are the minority.


And it's all their fault too, fault meaning they're responsible for the fact that they're still working.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

One thing I don't understand. If things are so bad, how come every time I go past the mall, movie theater on a Friday night, or restaurants are the parking lots always perfectly full.

The economy does suck and no one knows what will happen with it. Once in awhile, some guys catch a break. Last time at this week, I had no idea how I was going to continue paying my mortgage by only doing one, maybe two jobs a week. Then Monday I received a call that changed things and caught a break. Now I had to hire a few more guys.

That is rare for most of us and I am still feel shocked and blessed about my current situation. I think we can all agree that majority of homeowners have more concerns than whether or not to remodel their kitchen or not. If you have to chose having a 6 month cushion for the mortgage, or a kitchen remodel, it should be fairly simple to know what people are going to decide.


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## Crawdad (Jul 20, 2005)

jmacd said:


> For those of you that are doing better than ever, consider this:
> 
> What would of happened if you did what ever it is your doing now some years ago when a lot more people had jobs? :thumbup:
> 
> ...


Cool, can I get a tax break, as a minority owned business?

By the way, why would I have wanted to use today's strategies, years ago?
Marketing strategies change from year to year.
Just like the critters in the woods, "Adapt, or Die."


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

We haven't reach the stage of meltdown where shortages occur, think hurricanes and plywood, but they could develop over time. I have heard that Canfor has laid off big in Canada. Along with a slowdown, shortages could really, really sting. that is where this CT would come in handy. Contractors being able to source things.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Ok guys, after listening to you all try and convince me this economy might be worse than I thought I decided to spend a couple hours researching the economy today. What I found was quite interesting.

Turns out the economy was a little different than I had first anticipated. I should really do some more reading before I spout my mouth off and make the false claims that I did. As I began reading the economy is doing much better than I had thought, I actually undershot it I think. I actually think I might have better growth than I had figured next year. 

Mike


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Dang it Mike! There you go again with that cheery attitude!:w00t::thumbsup:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Last night I read an article talking about how the best careers to get into are the skilled trades. I can no longer find the link but I promise I am not lying.

I wonder if it has something to do with where the writer lives and they don't take in the whole picture of the economy.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Last night I read an article talking about how the best careers to get into are the skilled trades. I can no longer find the link but I promise I am not lying.
> 
> I wonder if it has something to do with where the writer lives and they don't take in the whole picture of the economy.


It was on the front page of MSN.com I think


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

http://www.stltoday.com/news/nation...cle_f3218fea-c448-11df-9863-0017a4a78c22.html Just as I was feeling a little bit better


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## RJDGraphics (May 4, 2010)

WOW... I never expected this much talk about this article. I just found it a little interesting, sorry if I got some of you all fired up. But a fun thread to read nonetheless. 



CCCo. said:


> OP will you please post a link, to this stink?
> I'd like to verify the source, and read the article entirely.


I don't have a high enough post count on CT to post a link. But if you do a yahoo search for "The 10 American Industries That May Never Recover" it should be the first link/article you see. 

The article was written by Douglas A. McIntyre of 24/7 Wall St.


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

Heritage, while I generally agree with your original comment, I find it hard to believe that shifting the 8% Pst and 5% GST into one 13% HST will increase the number of underground constructors. Can you expand on that statement?

In fact, as I have discussed with a couple small/medium contractors, it seems the old pst counters are now HST auditors specifically ordained to hunt down non compliant HST remittance. (whether its in construction or elsewhere)

Underground contractors in Ontario beware!


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

Sar-Con said:


> Heritage, while I generally agree with your original comment, I find it hard to believe that shifting the 8% Pst and 5% GST into one 13% HST will increase the number of underground constructors. Can you expand on that statement?
> 
> In fact, as I have discussed with a couple small/medium contractors, it seems the old pst counters are now HST auditors specifically ordained to hunt down non compliant HST remittance. (whether its in construction or elsewhere)
> 
> Underground contractors in Ontario beware!


The HST *PUSHES *more work towards the underground economy. It gives homeowners more of a financial incentive to go with that segment of contractors.


My $11,300 bid is going up against a $7,000 bid.

Once you cut that up, the "competitor" and I are walking away with the same amount in the pocket. How can you beat that? That's not chump change.

My $113,000 vs $70,000 =$43,000 dif.

Our situation in Canada is worse than it is for the guys down in the States.

We can sit around and claim "So what, that's nothing. There will always be a market for the legit guy". Sure, that doesn't excuse the fact that 40% of the jobs out there are NOT legit & now we're rewarding that by driving that percentage higher and robbing work away from the legit guys. 

This HST supposes that there isn't a "black market". If that was the case, or if they weren't so impotent in combatting the "black market"...I'd say "Fine, sure...it's something we ALL have to deal with". It would still drive business down, but whatever. Problem is, there's already a HUGE "black market" and we're now rewarding them and punishing the idiots that play by the rules.

I can't understand a Gov't that punishes tax paying, law abiding, qualified businesses while at the same time doing virtually NOTHING to preserve/uphold it's integrity.

"here's some rules, you gotta follow it, but we wont' do anything to the guys that don't, matter of fact...we're going to make it easier and more rewarding for them to operate". You gotta question whose side are they really on?

Legit contractors are becoming one of the most useless businesses in Canada. Expensive & you have no respect. Not even the Gov't cares about you. We're only good so long as we can muster enough work to scrape by and fuel the "system" with our extortion payments. At least with the other "mob", they occassionaly protect you.


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## apehangeralfy (Oct 26, 2008)

Heritage,

That's why we need to take a stand... unlicensed contracting is a crime. If they get caught they should go directly to jail. Then they can pay there share by paying fines. The police should be arresting these hacks, they are stealing from legit business that in-turn pay there salaries and hurt the community by doing inferior work.... 

I also feel that HO's need to be held accountable when it time to pay there bill, don't pay at the time of invoice... go to jail till they pay. If you go sit down at a restaurant, order a meal and don't pay they will arrest you. What makes thief of our services any different?


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> It's funny you say that because I read two great articles last week. One had to do with all the old homes that are in dire need of repair and how (because of the economy) people have not spent any money is a couple years they expect a surge in repair work coming up.
> 
> The second article picked carpenters, plumbers, and electricians as the next "golden" jobs to have. It explained that there has been a mass exodus of people getting out of them and they see a shortage in the future.
> 
> ...



I believe the average age of a "Skilled Trade" in North America is over 55.

We are importing workers from across the pond like crazy here in Vancouver.

North America needs new people to pay for the old timers and their old age security, Canada Pension and on and on.

Immigration in North America is needed to balance the books I think.

These young Spanish, Polish, English, Croatian, and on and on will work circles around our overweight, lazy North America Kids. I see more and more of it every day here in Vancouver. Last week a new painting crew was repainting a Bank and the entire 12 man crew where from Panama City.

Us veterans in the trenches for years had better shape up or will will loose our jobs to these men willing to worker harder for less. 

I am also hearing lots of chatter about the trades moving into self inspection and that our local inspectors positions may one day be gone.

I think we will see a burst in work over the next 10 - 15 years and then a slow down and as we loose our most expeirenced trades men we will have more choice in projects I think.

Can you support your family at $12.00 per hour? I bet a lot of these men not only can provide for themselves but also support their extended family back home in ......


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## Dutchman1977 (Sep 26, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> I realize I'm a rare cat and a somewhat unusual character. I also realize not everybody agrees with me....I'm cool with that, I'm used to it.:thumbsup:
> 
> Mike


Isn't that a requirement to be a plumbing contractor?:jester:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Dutchman1977 said:


> Isn't that a requirement to be a plumbing contractor?:jester:


Yes:clap:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I don't know what the answer is. I just know that I have opportunity right in front of me and it's a full time jobkeeping my own head on straight. I suspect some of what your saying is true but the world changes at a pretty fast rate and next year at this time the world will look a little different than today.

Here's the thing though. I get calls all the time from HO's saying contractors don't call back when they leave a message among other things. As long as that happens we both have great opportunity.

I think the opportunity is increasing actually. As the hacks come in they make me look good and business gets better.

But my hometown is hurting and people over the age of 55 are hanging up the tools belts and putting on a different hat. The dynamics are changing and you could be spot on with your take on thinking.

Mike


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I'll ad something else that's bothers me most.

The tradesman that's hanging up the tools and calling it quits are some of the best in the business. The replacements, many times, don't amount to half the character and integrity of those they replace. THAT.. is a sad state of affairs.

Mike


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## Dutchman1977 (Sep 26, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> I'll ad something else that's bothers me most.
> 
> The tradesman that's hanging up the tools and calling it quits are some of the best in the business. The replacements, many times, don't amount to half the character and integrity of those they replace. THAT.. is a sad state of affairs.
> 
> Mike


This what bothers me greatly I can't find a young hungry guy willing to learn a trade. My contracts/clients require criminal background checks. Around here a skilled, non Illegal, No criminal background, with own transportation, and good work history. hah :no: So the next move hire a grunt and train them next 5 years:whistling right all those kids went to college and learned nothing. leaving me with a bunch of Idiots who have no ambition to do anything. Around here schools used to have building and trades as a class, The class were the trouble makers and slow kids went. I'm a young Contractor and have a long way to go, but I know if we as Trades people don't get some kind of younger generation to learn these trades and hopefully some Integrity we are in trouble folks!:furious:


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## MOTB (May 13, 2009)

*better for repair, remodel and maintenance*



Five Arrows said:


> The older the housing market gets the better it is for repair, remodel and maintenance. You are right in thinking that there will be more competition, yet that isn't bad. It requires those of us who are serious about being in business to look for opportunities to differentiate and provide value that isn't available by the out of work hack.


Well said. To help emphasize this, as of last year, there were 128 million existing homes in the U.S., a huge based of ready business for home improvement professionals. The better news is that the average age of the U.S. home us 32 years - prime remodeling age, and a time of needed repairs and minor replacements. With the slowdown in the new construction marketing, people are more likely to keep their existing home and maintain it rather than buy a new home. Unfortunately too much emphasis has been placed on new construction statistics as well as politicians simply passifying various people with the upcoming elections. Stay focused on the opportunities and make sure your business stands out in front - and eventually you will get ahead. Sure, it will be painful, but never forget that this form of labor can never be outsourced to another country. The products may come from abroad, but not the labor. Best of luck in the field.
Brian


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## Aggie67 (Aug 28, 2008)

I'm not sure it's time to panic. Every year, I anxiously wait for Harvard's Annual Report on Housing. I've been reading that for years.

This year's report says sure it's bad, but it will recover. They're saying the market for new home construction and remodeling has hit the bottom and is working its way back.

Here's a line from Chapter 2:

In the longer term, both homebuilding and remodeling
activity should increase dramatically. Demographic forces
will lift household growth over the coming decade regardless
of whether immigration is suppressed or the echo
boomers delay forming independent households​​​​*(Table A-5).*​*
*Thus, even under a low-immigration scenario and assuming
headship rates hold constant at 2008 levels, overall housing
demand—including for second homes and replacement
of older housing lost from the stock—should support more
than 17 million new home completions and manufactured
home placements between 2010 and 2020.​


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## FreedomBuilders (Apr 18, 2010)

Dutchman1977 said:


> all those kids went to college and learned nothing. leaving me with a bunch of Idiots who have no ambition to do anything. :furious:


 and yet expect everything...there are a few out there that aren't afraid to work and learn.


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## SubwayGuy (Sep 1, 2010)

Dutchman1977 said:


> This what bothers me greatly I can't find a young hungry guy willing to learn a trade. My contracts/clients require criminal background checks. Around here a skilled, non Illegal, No criminal background, with own transportation, and good work history. hah :no: So the next move hire a grunt and train them next 5 years:whistling right all those kids went to college and learned nothing. leaving me with a bunch of Idiots who have no ambition to do anything. Around here schools used to have building and trades as a class, The class were the trouble makers and slow kids went. I'm a young Contractor and have a long way to go, but I know if we as Trades people don't get some kind of younger generation to learn these trades and hopefully some Integrity we are in trouble folks!:furious:


The kids today expect everything to be handed to them. They think their college degree entitles them to an office job, a 9 to 5, and a $50,000 a year salary that works its way up to $100,000 by the time they're 30 to sit around and make decisions, yet they're not even qualified to even decide where to go lunch.

There's a great saying I've heard about college degrees, and the kids who get lots of them but don't really learn anything except "book smarts."

_A thermometer has a lot of degrees and you know where you stick those_

Kids today are not willing to learn trades because they view them as hands on, dirty, and dangerous and that scares them for some reason. Instead they can be fun and rewarding. You SEE your product at the end of the day. What good is sitting in an office all day emailing spreadsheets?

*Disclaimer - I'm generalizing, I know they're not "all" like that but most are.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Well, It's ok to disagree. I do my marketing quite different than most people. My sales increase month after month so I must be doing something right. I just know that each and every one of my customers have no inclination to do the work themselves and that's why I charge what I do. I have actually helped many people do there own plumbing and it gives me even more sales because of word of mouth.
> 
> Each to his own I guess.
> 
> Mike


 
Mike, you live in a very prosperous area. I used to live in the rich town about 20 miles east of you. I read where the unemployment rate for those earning over 150K is only 3 percent. You have a LOT of those people where you live. I know where you are because you used to post your specific location. I will not state where you are out of respect for your anonymity. You simply are not in the same world as most of us. The higher income areas are more insulated from the current economic depression.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> Mike, you live in a very prosperous area. I used to live in the rich town about 20 miles east of you. I read where the unemployment rate for those earning over 150K is only 3 percent. You have a LOT of those people where you live. I know where you are because you used to post your specific location. I will not state where you are out of respect for your anonymity. You simply are not in the same world as most of us. The higher income areas are more insulated from the current economic depression.


I don't post it because I'm getting emails and phone calls from slaes people etc.

As to the economy here you are right about the income but it's still very bad. Drive downtown and all you see is empty spaces. The built 6 homes this year! I don't care what the national news say, people are in big trouble here.

Mike


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

SubwayGuy said:


> The kids today expect everything to be handed to them. They think their college degree entitles them to an office job, a 9 to 5, and a $50,000 a year salary that works its way up to $100,000 by the time they're 30 to sit around and make decisions, yet they're not even qualified to even decide where to go lunch.
> 
> There's a great saying I've heard about college degrees, and the kids who get lots of them but don't really learn anything except "book smarts."
> 
> ...


 
I am generalizing too , but our society shapes our kids to be the way they are. Kids hear from our politicians and corporate types about "work that Americans won't do." Society teaches them that hard, dirty work is for brown people from other countries. They are "smarter" than that.

They do not have it easy, however. They face a life of poverty and WILL have to wark harder than their parents and grandparents for poverty wages.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> I am generalizing too , but our society shapes our kids to be the way they are. Kids hear from our politicians and corporate types about "work that Americans won't do." Society teaches them that hard, dirty work is for brown people from other countries. They are "smarter" than that.
> 
> They do not have it easy, however. They face a life of poverty and WILL have to wark harder than their parents and grandparents for poverty wages.


 Greetings Double O, haven't seen you post in a while. How are things, or should I ask? Last job I did seems like over 3 weeks ago and I just moved into a new area with a little gift money. I feel bad for taking it, but I didn't have much choice, It was either that or the street. Don't feel too bad if you are hanging on by a shoestring because a lot of us are. I've always wanted to ask the guys who claim they are doing well if they anticipate any new hiring, bet not. If you can afford to hire, THEN and ONLY THEN are you doing well, and thus are doing your small part in putting Americans back to work. (illegals don't count) It gets too bad and you'll have to wear a sign around your neck--WILL TRADE TOOLS AND LABOR FOR FOOD


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## William James (Mar 5, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> I am generalizing too , but our society shapes our kids to be the way they are. Kids hear from our politicians and corporate types about "work that Americans won't do." Society teaches them that hard, dirty work is for brown people from other countries. They are "smarter" than that.
> 
> They do not have it easy, however. They face a life of poverty and WILL have to wark harder than their parents and grandparents for poverty wages.


That's the sad, hard truth! I love this Country. I hate what it's become.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> Greetings Double O, haven't seen you post in a while. How are things, or should I ask? Last job I did seems like over 3 weeks ago and I just moved into a new area with a little gift money. I feel bad for taking it, but I didn't have much choice, It was either that or the street. Don't feel too bad if you are hanging on by a shoestring because a lot of us are. I've always wanted to ask the guys who claim they are doing well if they anticipate any new hiring, bet not. If you can afford to hire, THEN and ONLY THEN are you doing well, and thus are doing your small part in putting Americans back to work. (illegals don't count) It gets too bad and you'll have to wear a sign around your neck--WILL TRADE TOOLS AND LABOR FOR FOOD


 
I'm alive and kicking! I had three decent jobs over the last week and a half, so I paid my bills this month, and all three customers were happy. Overall, things are not well. 19 months into business and I have dug a financial hole that I cannot dig myself out of. Maybe next month I'll go see a lawyer.

I know how you feel about taking assistance. I've been living with family. If it wasn't for that, I'd be under a bridge. What he heck, people did things like this during the last economic depression. I swallowed my pride a long time ago. I think people are fooling themselves if they think things will get better soon. Our "leaders" in Washington are not even talking about the real causes of this nation's economic trouble.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> I'm alive and kicking! I had three decent jobs over the last week and a half, so I paid my bills this month, and all three customers were happy. Overall, things are not well. 19 months into business and I have dug a financial hole that I cannot dig myself out of. Maybe next month I'll go see a lawyer.
> 
> I know how you feel about taking assistance. I've been living with family. If it wasn't for that, I'd be under a bridge. What he heck, people did things like this during the last economic depression. I swallowed my pride a long time ago. I think people are fooling themselves if they think things will get better soon. Our "leaders" in Washington are not even talking about the real causes of this nation's economic trouble.


Many years ago it was considered normal to live with family. The young would take care of the old. I always thought that was a good thing actually, families were better off when that happened. Now we build 6,000 sq ft homes for a married couple with no kids....Doesn't make sense.

Mike


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Many years ago it was considered normal to live with family. The young would take care of the old. I always thought that was a good thing actually, families were better off when that happened. Now we build 6,000 sq ft homes for a married couple with no kids....Doesn't make sense.
> 
> Mike


If I had the income to make the payments and property tax on a 6,000 sq. foot home, I'd rather have a 600 sq. foot home and pay it off in 3 or 4 years. In 3 or 4 years I'll bet I'd be sleeping better than the other guy! I think that housing got out of whack when people started looking at their homes as investments. If the value is "always going to go up", :no: you might as well buy as much house as you can afford. The fallacy in that thinking is that you always have to live somewhere, so for that to work, you have to downsize after you sell that big house for profit. A house is something that you should be able to pay off, so that you have the security of not having to pay rent or mortgage payments.

Check out this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJsDOD0dTQI&feature=related


Pushing 40 and being homeless is no fun. I'll bet that now you guys think that I am some loser living in his parents basement. Not true! They do not have a basement.

My twenties were much different, and my income went up every year. But that career does not exist anymore.

The last three jobs were a success in more ways than one. I am slowly establishing myself as an electrician that is expensive, but can be counted on for work that is second to none. And, if they call me at 11:00 at night, I'll be in the truck and on the way! My successes have just come too late, financially speaking.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Your not a loser, you just hit a road bump, some are bigger than others. When the bank foreclosed on my house and came and reposesed both vehicles I felt like a loser also. I look back at that time and it's pretty rough.

I'll tell ya something though, your gonna get through it. At times it may not feel like it but you will. I look back over my life and I'm a better person having gone through this. That sounds crazy but one day you will look back and smile. My family is much closer now, hard times pull you together.

My wife and I are looking to build a 32' x 32' house. I love simple, it's a great feeling to realize this. I llok at some of the massive homes I go into sometimes and it's easy to tell how depressed these people are. No thanks, I'll settle for a simple life.

Hang in there!

Mike


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Your not a loser, you just hit a road bump, some are bigger than others. When the bank foreclosed on my house and came and reposesed both vehicles I felt like a loser also. I look back at that time and it's pretty rough.
> 
> I'll tell ya something though, your gonna get through it. At times it may not feel like it but you will. I look back over my life and I'm a better person having gone through this. That sounds crazy but one day you will look back and smile. My family is much closer now, hard times pull you together.
> 
> ...


 

I think I really misread you. All of your positive talk, and all. You have been through hard times. The last 10 years have left psychological scars on me that will last the rest of my life. I don't think it is any different than the folks that lived through the last depression. I think we've all known these people, our grandparents, Aunts, Uncles, etc. They're the ones that squeeze the last drop from the tube of toothpaste, save seemingly useless things, live in a little house when they can afford something bigger and nicer, and still drive that rusty pickup because they think they can get another 10,000 miles out of it.


I still maintain that things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. Our "leaders" cannot correct the problems that are causing the economic destruction of our working people, when they do not even recognize them.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> I think I really misread you. All of your positive talk, and all. You have been through hard times. The last 10 years have left psychological scars on me that will last the rest of my life. I don't think it is any different than the folks that lived through the last depression. I think we've all known these people, our grandparents, Aunts, Uncles, etc. They're the ones that squeeze the last drop from the tube of toothpaste, save seemingly useless things, live in a little house when they can afford something bigger and nicer, and still drive that rusty pickup because they think they can get another 10,000 miles out of it.
> 
> 
> I still maintain that things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. Our "leaders" cannot correct the problems that are causing the economic destruction of our working people, when they do not even recognize them.


Your right about the psychological scars, they don't go away. I wish I could tell you otherwise but that would be a lie. For the rest of my life I will carry it. Folks who have never asked the neighbors for food have no idea what we carry inside us.

But doen't beat yourself up, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. The scars we have are a very good thing, let me explain.

It's easy to focus on the negative side of this but like a coin it has two sides. I never use to stop and "smell the roses" but now I do. I no longer think about what to buy next, money makes me sick to my stomach, I don't think about that suff now. What this episode in my life did do for me however was make me understand money. Money isn't meant for spending on things that make us feel good. 

The purpose of money is to give it away, that's the driving force for me and that's what makes me wake up early and give every ounce of energy to the cause.

The ability for a person to help others is the greatest gift a man can have. Poor people can't help poor people. For me at least, I started to understand that I can help people but I need money to do that. With this attitude your business will grow like weed because your attitude changes also.

Right now, at this very moment, more people are hurting than ever before. So basically that means the opportunity for helping others increases, you now have more people you can help! Wow, that's good news! I hope I die broke to be honest, all that means is I did my job and gave it to people.

In town right now we have a little girl with cancer and her parents were in accident. The situation is so messed up it hardly seems possible. That right there is more motivation than I will ever need. Waking up, knocking on doors, meeting people, and networking with the social elites is the best way to help that family get through this and pay the hospital bills. The government wont do it, that little girl is depending on you and I to help her out.....It's just that simple, and I will help her out and nothing on this earth will stop me from doing this, not the economy, not the President, NOBODY!

My life was shallow before I was financially ruined but I had money, lots of it.....and I never helped the people who needed it. I love the fact I have scars because of this, if I hadn't gone through this I would of never truly realized the impact I can have on others. This economy has given me purpose.

Once I became driven by purpose the money started to flow and will continue to flow and it will for you also.

Sorry about going off on a tangent, I just want to make sure you understand that what you are going through can be a great gift...use it!:thumbup:

Mike


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Craftsman Jay said:


> That's the sad, hard truth! I love this Country. I hate what it's become.


 
It is getting to be like Mexico. Mostly very poor people and a small number fo super rich.


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> I'm alive and kicking! I had three decent jobs over the last week and a half, so I paid my bills this month, and all three customers were happy. Overall, things are not well. 19 months into business and I have dug a financial hole that I cannot dig myself out of. Maybe next month I'll go see a lawyer.
> 
> I know how you feel about taking assistance. I've been living with family. If it wasn't for that, I'd be under a bridge. What he heck, people did things like this during the last economic depression. I swallowed my pride a long time ago. I think people are fooling themselves if they think things will get better soon. Our "leaders" in Washington are not even talking about the real causes of this nation's economic trouble.


I agree with everything you said. Probably because you are right. The only thing I do not agree with is you said "our leaders". They are NOT my leaders and I venture to say they are NOT your leaders either. If I were to have a leader, they would represent me and I don't know one single crooked corrupt clown in all of govt who represents me.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Jimmy Cabinet said:


> I agree with everything you said. Probably because you are right. The only thing I do not agree with is you said "our leaders". They are NOT my leaders and I venture to say they are NOT your leaders either. If I were to have a leader, they would represent me and I don't know one single crooked corrupt clown in all of govt who represents me.


No, they are not our leaders. That is why it is in quotes: "our leaders". They do not work for you and me, they work against us. They work for the owners of this country not you and me.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> No, they are not our leaders. That is why it is in quotes: "our leaders". They do not work for you and me, they work against us. They work for the owners of this country not you and me.


 A big X2 on that. The worst we don't even know yet, but it's coming. How can a bankrupt government bail out bankrupt banks? It's insane, and worst of all I believe they planned it this way. You can not make policies that underwrite the underfunded. Period. An example is some lady wants work done. Material is $1000, you need $ 1500 for labor, she only has $800 and little or no income. Do you go ahead give her a deal for $500 and spend your $2000 to finish the job, hoping to make it up some other way? And then keep repeating this same process over and over? You would be out of business very quickly and so will the US soon. The taxpayers revenue will never be able to cover all of the spending being done in Washington


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> A big X2 on that. The worst we don't even know yet, but it's coming. How can a bankrupt government bail out bankrupt banks? It's insane, and worst of all I believe they planned it this way. You can not make policies that underwrite the underfunded. Period. An example is some lady wants work done. Material is $1000, you need $ 1500 for labor, she only has $800 and little or no income. Do you go ahead give her a deal for $500 and spend your $2000 to finish the job, hoping to make it up some other way? And then keep repeating this same process over and over? You would be out of business very quickly and so will the US soon. The taxpayers revenue will never be able to cover all of the spending being done in Washington


 
I think the above scenario could work. The key is volume. If you lose $500 enough times, you've got to come out on top somehow!:w00t:


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

Irishslave said:


> A big X2 on that. The worst we don't even know yet, but it's coming. How can a bankrupt government bail out bankrupt banks? It's insane, and worst of all I believe they planned it this way. You can not make policies that underwrite the underfunded. Period. An example is some lady wants work done. Material is $1000, you need $ 1500 for labor, she only has $800 and little or no income. Do you go ahead give her a deal for $500 and spend your $2000 to finish the job, hoping to make it up some other way? And then keep repeating this same process over and over? You would be out of business very quickly and so will the US soon. The taxpayers revenue will never be able to cover all of the spending being done in Washington


You forgot something. If we balanced our check books like this (not mine) govt balances theirs, I ask you...........how long would we last in business and in our homes?


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## SubwayGuy (Sep 1, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> No, they are not our leaders. That is why it is in quotes: "our leaders". They do not work for you and me, they work against us. They work for the owners of this country not you and me.


That's because they are the rich and they work for the rich. They do not work for us, the working and middle class. No matter how much they try and lie to us about their upbringing and say that they do.

This country is one big country club, and we're not in it. We have to clean the clubhouse when the suits and the rich are done s***ing all over the place.

That will never change as long as you need a lot of money to run for elected office.


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> I think the above scenario could work. The key is volume. If you lose $500 enough times, you've got to come out on top somehow!:w00t:



Well it works really well for those Contractors who sell to the govt. Think of how good business is when you sell the govt 16 oz hammers for $500 each, sell toilet seats for $400 each, Nails for $100 an ounce............on and on.


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

SubwayGuy said:


> That's because they are the rich and they work for the rich. They do not work for us, the working and middle class. No matter how much they try and lie to us about their upbringing and say that they do.
> 
> This country is one big country club, and we're not in it. We have to clean the clubhouse when the suits and the rich are done s***ing all over the place.
> 
> That will never change as long as you need a lot of money to run for elected office.


Did you see Harry Reid in the debates last night? His opponent asked him how he got so wealthy. Reid's answer was a sarcastic one said with a straight clueless face. "I am on a fixed income and have been for 2 years".

A fixed income? His fixed income is $197,000 per year with the total cost of living paid for. Add in a private jet provided via taxpayers and all the invisible perks most gullible citizens would deny exists unless they saw it with their own eyes. 

Sometimes I wonder if it's the believers and voters who are clueless rather then the fat cat Bureaucrats.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

This thread definitely took off. How many of you saw this coming? Or how bad it became? I knew instinctively that the Real Estate would fall due to it rising so fast, When a 700 sq ft house in an old neighborhood by the railroad tracks goes for over 100k something is wrong. I didn't know what was behind it all at the time because my phone never stopped ringing. I should have saved more money, but I have learned the hard way and doubt I'll ever be in the position again to use what I have learned from this. I am trying to think of a way to improvise, adapt, overcome but coming up short due to market conditions. Too old to change careers, too young to retire.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

I saw it coming 15 years ago. I think we are just seeing the tip of the icetea. It it going to get worse because we as a nation do not produce things anymore. Unless you count e mails and faxes.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

:laughing:Remember when multiple people would bid on a house for sale way over the asking price?


..............ahhhhh, the good old days.

Now banks are asking people who foreclosed to just stay in the house for a while.:laughing:

It's always one extreme to the next.

Mike


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

I lived in Waukesha county, WI from 1997-2001. Prices there were retarded then. A single person earning mid 40's base with lots of overtime should be able to afford a decent house.


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

Irishslave said:


> This thread definitely took off. How many of you saw this coming? Or how bad it became? I knew instinctively that the Real Estate would fall due to it rising so fast, When a 700 sq ft house in an old neighborhood by the railroad tracks goes for over 100k something is wrong.* I didn't know what was behind it all at the time because my phone never stopped ringing. I should have saved more money, but I have learned the hard way and doubt I'll ever be in the position again to use what I have learned from this. I am trying to think of a way to improvise, adapt, overcome but coming up short due to market conditions. Too old to change careers, too young to retire.*


Oh how right you are. How very very right you are. May I nominate the bold text as the post of the day? 

If only we all knew. We were all pretty dumb to think the good times would last forever. I made a small fortune but spent it like a drunken Sailor. Now I am living off the fat and it's going fast. I downsized my life just like everyone else. I'm not complaining but I do miss all the toys and entertainment I so took for granted because the money was always there. 

You have a wonderful rest of weekend my friend !!!


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> :laughing:Remember when multiple people would bid on a house for sale way over the asking price?
> 
> 
> ..............ahhhhh, the good old days.
> ...


How true. Back in about 2001 I can remember looking into the MLS book in Las Vegas and there were less then 100 homes in the entire city active and available. And they were all junk. Today there are over 20,000 A&A in LV. Realtors were keeping listings in house rather then list them MLS because people were camping outside their doors waiting for homes to become available to purchase quite often without even looking at it, How many home buyers bought sight unseen because the time it took to drive to the home to look at it was too late. Some one would have already bought it. 

Realtors had long lists of potential buyers and as they signed a listing they would call all their buyers and would sell that home without them seeing it. The ink never even dried on new listings and they were sold. 

I was personally involved in a couple thousand Pulte Tract homes. People would put down a $2000 deposit on a $20,000 back lot in phase II and in 3 months when the builder opened those lots for sale the people would sell it privately or back to the builder for $30,000. $10,000 profit in 3 months for their $2000 investment. Even average people could play this game. This is how I bought my boat, RV and sandrail. 

Now look at it all. If these homes are not in foreclosure they are about to be. Either way, these homes are worth 70% less then they sold for just 6 years ago. How sad.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Very true!

I went to the library of the new town I'm moving to for some research and on the front page of a newspaper it said 1 in 3 homeowners owe more than the house is worth.

Later in the article it explained that a big survey was done to figure out consumer emotions right now. Don't quote me but I thought it said 56% of the people surveyed said they have no problem with not paying the mort. In other words they are willing to stop making payments and don't care.

The article went on to say that many homeowners are sick of making payments on something they will never catch up on.

It was pretty interesting as well as a little scary.

Mike


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Very true!
> 
> I went to the library of the new town I'm moving to for some research and on the front page of a newspaper it said 1 in 3 homeowners owe more than the house is worth.
> 
> ...


 
It does not surprise me. They know they've been had. Plus, it does not matter, when they lose their job and cannot make the payments. Add to that the fact that many who lose their jobs will never make as much afterwords.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

It's all a big shell game now with the bankers and Wall Street in charge. If you follow real estate listings, particularly foreclosures you'll see that the listings are limited, if a few move, they will release a few new ones each month, if they don't move they may lower the price. If they released all the vacant property and listed it today, the prices would drop like a rock. They are in a desperate situation just like everyone else and they are trying to falsely shore up the market by holding the property and not listing it, at least that's my speculation. I don't think it has hit bottom yet. Bankers are goofy, a vacant house is not an asset, it is a liability on the other hand if no one has a decent paying job who is going to buy all this vacant real estate?


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> It's all a big shell game now with the bankers and Wall Street in charge. If you follow real estate listings, particularly foreclosures you'll see that the listings are limited, if a few move, they will release a few new ones each month, if they don't move they may lower the price. If they released all the vacant property and listed it today, the prices would drop like a rock. They are in a desperate situation just like everyone else and they are trying to falsely shore up the market by holding the property and not listing it, at least that's my speculation. I don't think it has hit bottom yet. Bankers are goofy, a vacant house is not an asset, it is a liability on the other hand if no one has a decent paying job who is going to buy all this vacant real estate?


 
That is why we gotta get our manufacturing back and get the illegals out of the country. People who think that the housing crises is the cause of this economic depression are bullfi77ing themselves and us. The housing crises is only a symptom. I have heard that the next toe to drop is the commercial (retail) real estate market. How can it not, people don't have money to spend on crap anymore.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> That is why we gotta get our manufacturing back and get the illegals out of the country. People who think that the housing crises is the cause of this economic depression are bullfi77ing themselves and us. The housing crises is only a symptom. I have heard that the next toe to drop is the commercial (retail) real estate market. How can it not, people don't have money to spend on crap anymore.


 You'll have no trouble getting a consenses on that my friend, yes we need to repatriate all of our industry and get everybody buying from us, including China. I just don't see how we can do it without going to war with them first


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> You'll have no trouble getting a consenses on that my friend, yes we need to repatriate all of our industry and get everybody buying from us, including China. I just don't see how we can do it without going to war with them first


 
This country needs to adopt protectionist trade policies - tarriffs! At one time this country did not have an income tax. Revenue to the Federal governemnt was raised by tarriffs on imported goods and services. Communists crumble when they are told NO! It worked against the Soviets.

The biggest problems we face are within our own borders. How many politicians have you heard talking about doing something to solve these problems? It is not in their interest to do so, because they represent the interests of the extreme rich. They do not represent you and me, my friend. 



Our large corporations have an insatiable appetite for cheap labor. Our (their) representatives in Washington are going to continue to feed it to them.


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Very true!
> 
> I went to the library of the new town I'm moving to for some research and on the front page of a newspaper it said 1 in 3 homeowners owe more than the house is worth.
> 
> ...


Well hey Mike. We learned in Finance 101 way back in college that thy shall not throw money into a deprecating asset (our homes). We only do it because that asset is also our shelter. 

To those who point and scold those who abandon their homes because they can no longer pay the mortgage through no fault of their own: We all have an obligation in life to our creditors and our family. When depression times hit and we don't have enough, family comes first and TO HELL WITH THE LENDER.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> That is why we gotta get our manufacturing back and get the illegals out of the country. People who think that the housing crises is the cause of this economic depression are bullfi77ing themselves and us. The housing crises is only a symptom. I have heard that the next toe to drop is the commercial (retail) real estate market. How can it not, people don't have money to spend on crap anymore.


I'm one of those positive type people that think anything is possible. I have to tell ya though, I don't see manufacturing coming back to America in fact I would say for the most part it's impossible. 

As long as other countries have people willing to work for .13 an hour and we have to compete with this it's impossible.

Mike


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> I'm one of those positive type people that think anything is possible. I have to tell ya though, I don't see manufacturing coming back to America in fact I would say for the most part it's impossible.
> 
> As long as other countries have people willing to work for .13 an hour and we have to compete with this it's impossible.
> 
> Mike


 If you don't see manufacturing coming back, then maybe we can all install each other's water heaters? Seriously, Mike where do you think the money comes from? It comes from production, I think they call it GDP in the economic circles and it doesn't even come close to covering our debt these days. I have watched this stuff for years, it works like this....a little deregulation, then massive tax cuts and all of a sudden money and credit is flying everywhere, then once everybody takes the bait, they pull the plug. You and others can talk about being positive all you want but the reality is a declining market and it is not just construction, it's everywhere and these are the people that feed us, we buy their goods and services and feed them, but when teeth in the gears start to break the machine no longer runs. This market became saturated because there was nothing else left for anyone to do. Manufacturing is gone. Tech has run it's course. Customer service is outsourced. What's left? Produce Hunting and Fishing videos or work at Chuck's Taco hut?


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I'm well aware of how it works, I don't need an explaination.

The question is how to deal with .13 an hour. When a manufacture leaves the odds of it coming back are not good. Where do people work? Good question, I have no idea. I just know the standard of living is changing and will continue to change.

When I say "I don't see manufacturing coming back" that's because I don't see it coming back. You can get upset at me making an observation but facts are stubborn things; The middle class is thinning quickly.

I have a customer that manufactures a commercial composite material. His cost is 30% higher than what India is selling if for. He just closed the doors. No amount of de-regulation and tax breaks could of saved that.

The fact is we will never be a nation that manufactures what we once did. We will be a country that has manufacturing in it but it will be limited. 

This is the result of global competition.

Your post doesn't make any sense to me, we all know the importance of manufacturing so that conversation is pointless. Solutions to saving what we have in manufacturing is a much better direction.

Mike


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

My prediction is rail roads and alternative energy products are where the future jobs will come from.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

flashheatingand said:


> My prediction is rail roads and alternative energy products are where the future jobs will come from.


 
Nope! Transportation is a service and there is no real demand for alternative energy. Neither build wealth for a nation.

Kinda like selling each other cheeseburgers.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

You don't need demand on the front end on alternative energy for it to be a good idea. Years from now the demand could be massive if ideas and innovation are created from the work done today.

Right now alternative energy is a joke but that might not be true in the future. Many inventions and innovations were dumb early on or were slow to start, but that changed with time. 

I'm not a magician so I wont guess, but how many people saw the internet when Texas Instruments developed the hand held calculator in 1966? I would say maybe a couple folks.

Don't bet against alternative energy, the sheer quantity of people working on it right now have the capacity to develop something great.

When I was a kid if someone told me in the future I could watch a video on a hand held device that can also make phone calls and take credit cards from customers I would have him locked up in the looney bin. As a matter of fact I think friends of Tesla tried to lock him up because of his theory on invisible air waves.

Alternative energy that makes sense is not a complex problem compared to most, it's just a matter of time and energy spent on the problem.

Mike


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> You don't need demand on the front end on alternative energy for it to be a good idea. Years from now the demand could be massive if ideas and innovation are created from the work done today.
> 
> Right now alternative energy is a joke but that might not be true in the future. Many inventions and innovations were dumb early on or were slow to start, but that changed with time.
> 
> ...


 
That is all fine and dandy, but "alternative energy" does not produce wealth for a nation. Poor, homeless people can't afford conventional OR alternative energy anyway.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> Nope! Transportation is a service and there is no real demand for alternative energy. Neither build wealth for a nation.
> 
> Kinda like selling each other cheeseburgers.


 You are correct DoubleOh, nothing happens until something tangible is sold. Moreover, both concepts require billions in capital expenditures ie more taxes (not a popular idea right now) Transportation can not be exported either. These areas are also the consumptive side of the equation


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> You are correct DoubleOh, nothing happens until something tangible is sold. Moreover, both concepts require billions in capital expenditures ie more taxes (not a popular idea right now) Transportation can not be exported either. These areas are also the consumptive side of the equation


 
"nothing happens until something tangible is sold"



That has value added due to the fact that something was manufactured from otherwise useless materials.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I'm a plumber, I don't claim to know the answer. 

The world WILL look much different 50 years from now that I do know. To try and predict is borderline nuts. Nothing we have in modern times was predicted. I would say next week will be different as well.

As long as we can't predict innovation this argument becomes meaningless chatter.

Mike


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Nicola Tesla discovered free energy a long time ago, alternative energy is nothing new, however most of the specifics are locked up in room #5600. So therefore it is not a free market item, that is to say very controlled and regulated and not something the international crime lords are interested in even though the pay it lip service


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> I'm a plumber, I don't claim to know the answer.
> 
> The world WILL look much different 50 years from now that I do know. To try and predict is borderline nuts. Nothing we have in modern times was predicted. I would say next week will be different as well.
> 
> ...


 
This is not meaningless chatter. It is a discussion about the realization that poverty will continue to grow in this nation if we do not bring our manufacturing back. I know what our future looks like without manufacturing, it looks like that of a third world nation.


Mike, do you or anyone else care to answer this question:

Why has the Chinese economy grown exponentially in the last 2 decades?


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*I agree and our jobs are gone forever*



Irishslave said:


> If you don't see manufacturing coming back, then maybe we can all install each other's water heaters? Seriously, Mike where do you think the money comes from? It comes from production, I think they call it GDP in the economic circles and it doesn't even come close to covering our debt these days. I have watched this stuff for years, it works like this....a little deregulation, then massive tax cuts and all of a sudden money and credit is flying everywhere, then once everybody takes the bait, they pull the plug. You and others can talk about being positive all you want but the reality is a declining market and it is not just construction, it's everywhere and these are the people that feed us, we buy their goods and services and feed them, but when teeth in the gears start to break the machine no longer runs. This market became saturated because there was nothing else left for anyone to do. Manufacturing is gone. Tech has run it's course. Customer service is outsourced. What's left? Produce Hunting and Fishing videos or work at Chuck's Taco hut?


I agree with your assessment. Many huge businesses closed because they could not compete with China. Those jobs will never come back to this country. Millions of customer service and computer jobs are outsourced to Asia, India, and these jobs will never come back. This thread has nothing to do with having a negative or positive attitude. Too many people think time and magic will eventually repair the economy and I don't think any of us will live long enough to see a recovery. You have to realize that these bad times started 11 years ago and that is already one-third of the period most people work until retirement.

The good thing about talking about this subject is so contractors can tighten their belts and prepare themselves for a very long recession. In fact, many economic experts think we are in for some very serious problems and you can laugh all you want, but I am stocking several hundred cases of food, water, survival supplies, thousands of bullets, and thousands of dollars in small silver coins in preparation for a meltdown. At worse, I will rotate the food and stay fat.

My wife and I started preparing for a meltdown a few weeks ago and this meltdown could occur if their is a terrorist attack, flu pandemic, riots, famine, power grid failure, or who knows what. Again, you may think everything heals itself like a cut, but look at what happened during the Los Angeles riots only because a few people didn't like a court decision. People were shooting at each other and people died. Can you imagine how fast all the supermarket shelves will be empty and how fast people will pull out guns if they think their food supply chain is broken.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> This is not meaningless chatter. It is a discussion about the realization that poverty will continue to grow in this nation if we do not bring our manufacturing back. I know what our future looks like without manufacturing, it looks like that of a third world nation.
> 
> 
> Mike, do you or anyone else care to answer this question:
> ...


 
Sure, I'll give you my honest answer but it wont be pretty.:laughing: Just give me a few minutes while I tuck my kids in bed.

Mike


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

pcplumber said:


> I agree with your assessment. Many huge businesses closed because they could not compete with China. Those jobs will never come back to this country. Millions of customer service and computer jobs are outsourced to Asia, India, and these jobs will never come back. This thread has nothing to do with having a negative or positive attitude. Too many people think time and magic will eventually repair the economy and I don't think any of us will live long enough to see a recovery. You have to realize that these bad times started 11 years ago and that is already one-third of the period most people work until retirement.
> 
> The good thing about talking about this subject is so contractors can tighten their belts and prepare themselves for a very long recession. In fact, many economic experts think we are in for some very serious problems and you can laugh all you want, but I am stocking several hundred cases of food, water, survival supplies, thousands of bullets, and thousands of dollars in small silver coins in preparation for a meltdown. At worse, I will rotate the food and stay fat.
> 
> My wife and I started preparing for a meltdown a few weeks ago and this meltdown could occur if their is a terrorist attack, flu pandemic, riots, famine, power grid failure, or who knows what. Again, you may think everything heals itself like a cut, but look at what happened during the Los Angeles riots only because a few people didn't like a court decision. People were shooting at each other and people died. Can you imagine how fast all the supermarket shelves will be empty and how fast people will pull out guns if they think their food supply chain is broken.


 Thank you sir, I knew there were others out there that realize just how deep the rabbit hole goes, and believe me I don't enjoy feeling this way but I have had an ominus, empty feeling for a better part of this year. I have disseminated all the info I can get my hands on and it doesn't look good.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

My opinion is that we are a nation in serious decline. I think it started in the 60's. After WW2 we were probably peaking as a nation. People cared about more than themselves. The 60's got people to start thinking about themselves more. A lot of fringe groups formed and separated from the pack. The 70's saw some major ups and downs financially. 80's brought about the computer age, and we enjoyed some robust times as a lot of great idea people started some great computer companies and set the stage to capitalize on the .com boom. 90's were about widening the gap between the upper class and the lower class. The economy was on the upswing, so many didn't notice the widening gap. Now we have soaring debt, tight credit, a social security system in real trouble, and health costs soaring. You know, at one time Rome was the greatest nation in the world. Where do they rank now? Welcome to the new Rome.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

*First*
I agree 100% that we need manufacturing, that's beside the point. That's like talking about rain while it's raining.

If you really want my take I will give it to you.

I think this country needs to come to grips with the fact that the only way to save it is to pay more for products made here in the USA. I think with proper marketing it's possible but people by human nature think about themselves first. That means they love to buy the .20 tooth brush made in China sold in Wal-Mart. That type of thinking is going to kill us, yet I don't see that changing until it's too late.

Are people willing to spend more on products made in America? Will they do it to help save America? 

We have to make a choice, buy products from here or buy them from overseas. I hate Government control but here is where the Government can help create a system where buying products made here is smart.

*Second*

With the above said, the Government needs to stop spending and serving itself. Again, this is all stuff we know already but now it’s serious. It used to be something we warned about but now it’s here. The people of this country need to ban together and stop it.

Like I said above people are selfish by nature until the problem is actually effecting them right at home. It’s not here yet but it will be shortly.

If we can curb Government spending that will ease the tax burden and free up capital on the home front.

*Third*

Unions need to go, period. This can help manufacturing in a big way.

*BONUS ROUND (Here is where I go out on a limb)*

The real answer to this problem is Americans. We need to stop electing lawyers and start electing engineers and innovators as our civil servants.

We need to take education serious. America needs to create the greatest most efficient education system in the world. That means eliminating unions in the education system and creating policies that serve America first and not the unions.

We need to live in smaller houses and not 6,000 sq ft homes with boats and four wheelers in the garage.

Citizens need to put more importance on family and country.

We need to place value on buying locally produced goods and not settle for a product because it’s cheaper.

We need to start loving our country and having pride in who we are as a nation and stop bashing the principals that it was founded on. One that happens our people will demand products be made here. Is it possible for people to change before it’s too late? I’ll save that answer for you.

Instead of talking about problems we know exist I think we are better off talking about solutions and get busy fixing it.

Manufacturing isn’t going away……it’s already gone! Let's talk about what we can do right now to fix it.

The country seems to be excited about Tuesdays elections, I'm not, we are just taking out lawyers and putting new lawyers back in with a different colored hat.

Mike


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> This is not meaningless chatter. It is a discussion about the realization that poverty will continue to grow in this nation if we do not bring our manufacturing back. *I know what our future looks like without manufacturing, it looks like that of a third world nation.*
> 
> 
> Mike, do you or anyone else care to answer this question:
> ...


I know few will admit it even though it's right in their face but we are a 3rd world nation. We have dropped from the freest nation on earth to tied for the 16th freest. Even former Soviet states are freer then the USA at this time. And we are still falling further thanks to an ever increasing police state as well as more and more govt control over our private lives.

Our health care. Oh man you really want me to go there? USA ranks 37th in efficiency while quality health care ranks 18th. Cost of health care? Well we are so far down the list that it is too embarrassing to say for fear that some one from a foreign country might read it. You just can not be a world leader when your country can not provide affordable health care for each and every man woman and child. 

In education the USA now ranks 18 in the world and we are falling fast in this dept too. 

Only our military has not fallen behind. But what the hell good is it if we are too chicken sheet to use it for fear of insulting some one. That some one who happens to be our enemy. Some one who hates every cell in our bodies. They want us dead so bad they can taste it and they think about killing us every waking second of their day. We have to be politically correct ya know. 

Is it still the greatest country in the world? Well yea, it is. But one thing is for sure. It is not the same country that I grew up in.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I forgot to mention we are a nation of pansies where people refuse to sacrifice their own self comfort for the good of the nation. Now, because of this, we are being forced to sacrifice because politicians are controlled by special interest groups who don't want manufacturing here. 

Instead, we are becoming a fantasy "green" nation while China, India, and the rest of the nations backed by their governmetare spewing their own version of polution instead.

I say we bring the smokestacks right back here and keep producing polution....what's the difference?

Mike


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> *First*
> I agree 100% that we need manufacturing, that's beside the point. That's like talking about rain while it's raining.
> 
> If you really want my take I will give it to you.
> ...


We need to we need to we need to we need to.................................

Mike I pretty much agree with you as I always do. But all these "we need to" is beyond any of us peasants to fix. It's out of our hands. The only mortals who can fix it are not interested in doing so. It's all about themselves, their perks, their egos and the chance to vote for their own raise. Come on people......voting for your own raise?!?!?!?!?! What are they going to do say no? Well they never have in 300 years anyway.

Look at these crooked corrupt lying conniving clowns you all vote for. If I lied to you then you would ignore me yet you all continue to fall for the lies by those with noses that resemble John Holmes best asset. 

Here is the typical speech by a politician:
We need to cut taxes
We need to improve our education
We need to put a stop to crime
We need to create jobs

To which each line excites loud applause by the gullible voters. Why? Because the truth is WE DO NEED TO DO ALL THOSE THINGS

But read closer. No where did the politician say HE WAS GOING TO..... He said we need to. That means he did not make any promises therefore not obligated to do a damn thing. They are a freaking liar and the voters fall for it hook line and sinker time after time.

Take this senario and use NON politicians like Ross Perot or Ron Paul and this is how they did the same speech:
I will cut taxes
I will improve our education
I will cut crime
I will create jobs

The logical thing to ask is what would you rather have? But the voters made it quite clear that they want business as usual. I give up!!! I can't beat them but I will never ever join them.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I agree Jimmy:laughing:

I have to say "we need to" because right now I carry a pipe wrench and that's what I'm capable of.

I will say this however. The first guy that says "Mike, put down your pipe wrench and come fight with me to take it back" I will do it in a second, even if it means loosing everything I have......it wouldn't be the first time.

Mike


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