# Schluter Shower Systems



## J&J Home Imp.

Does anyone frequently use there products? I just got the info pack from them and watched the install video and looks to be a good product but I haven't used it yet in the field. I don't do many showers so I am still developing my technique and I really struggle with the mud beds being that I have only done 3. I really like the idea of the presloped floor they have. Obviously it will only work in pretty standard applications but I just wondered what ya'll thought.


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## numbknees

never tried
probably never will
i prefer old school methods


bill.


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## justin savage

The schluter products are awesome, the ctef school in south carolina lined a cardboard box over 5 years ago with there kerdi membrane and have used it ever since for an ice chest for drinks for there tile school. justin


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## MattCoops

you can buy membranes that will hold up just as long as Kerdi
at your local tile shop.

we get ours for about $1.50 / sq ft.

and some bags of sand and portland cement

and mud the pan

you can mud a shower pan for under $200

that whole kerdi shower kit is over $600

save a bunch by doing some research and getting your hands dirty


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## firemike

Like Justin said - The Schluter products are awesome. 

I am working on a custom steam shower right now and using all Schluter/Kerdi products. I have never used the preslope pans yet as I do mostly custom work and the size/shape varies from their stock pan sizes, and I still prefer the good old-fashioned mud decks. 

A few of the local wholesalers carry different products (Nobelseal, etc) but I still prefer the schluter stuff. 

Their trim pieces, edge treatments, etc. really make the job look better. I love the Ditra for floors too!


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## J&J Home Imp.

The presloped beds would have helped me a lot in the last one I did. I never had anyone show me how to do a shower so i had to take the basic idea and kinda figure it out. Still am not very good at it and I fight it alot so the Schluter will help me a lot where I can use it. A lot of guys I know here in the area are still hung up on old school stuff and I know there are better ways. I know one guy that still does the hot mop tar pans. I guess its about what ya know.


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## justin savage

There other membranes that are very good Noble for one .But the kerdi from schluter is only about 1.12 a sqft. , also the shower system for a 48" shower is about $ 325- includes premade pan,curb, drain,and kerdi for the walls. Go to www.tileprotection.com justin


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## J&J Home Imp.

Thats a good link there. I book marked it. They have a really good price on ditra if you buy it by the 6 roll pack.


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## JJC

I've been reading this thread and noticing the cost of the Kerdi. It lists for $1.59 per sq. ft. in the large roll. Matt, if you are paying 1.50 per ft. then I'd be looking for a different supplier. Justin is paying a fair price as a contractor for the product. I'll bet you can get it for even less by shopping the distributors. I pay $0.98 per sq. ft. To be fair, I do volume buying.
I've been using Schluter products for the last 9 or 10 years, and I only do showers and steam rooms with Kerdi. The pans are a good product, but not for every application. When used, it saves a tremendous amount of time, and money. An example is a 48x48" shower. 20 minutes to install shower base and curb for plumber to hook up drain. I still charge the labor as if it is a mud pan going in. First stop of the day, 7AM install shower base, talk with plumber awhile, pick up my stuff, and I'm on my way to another job by 8AM. People should be taking a very serious look into using it more. It's just food for thought.
Jim


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## dshcontracting

You can do custom sloped pans using the membrane also. The best part is that you never have water actually getting into the mortar bed. Old school mortar beds do work well. Like 1940's and early 50's around here seem to hold up real well. In the 60s and 70's, too much volume building, all garbage. So it's really all about the installer. I use schluter and it helps out on our speed and costs. (time is money) Believe it or not, most people around here have no idea how to make a mortar pan anymore.


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## Bud Cline

Times are changing and Schluter offers state-of-the-art products to speed up a job and gaurantee accuracy and reliability. I haven't done a double-cast mud slope in about five years. I do large odd ball custom showers that still require a hand-cast mud slope but I still use KERDI.

The Schluter Shower Kit is tops and worth every penny, there is as much profit in using the kit as there is in casting mud. If the standard kit is too small for a desired shower floor simply place the kit and extend it with mud, it all gets covered with KERDI.

Justin is correct about the price, I have no idea where the $600 estimate comes from I have never paid that much.

With the exception of the tile-ready products and the Great Noble Company offerings there is no other shower system that lets you start the pan and finish the tile shower floor all in one day.:thumbsup: I have found that around here the only guys that complain about the Schluter System and Noble System shower product is the hacks that can't come up with four hundred dollars lump sum to buy the kit. 

*J&J Home Improvement* if you feel you are struggling with mud pans please feel free to email me. I don't know if I can help but I'd be glad to try.

[email protected]

I might also suggest that you take a look at the mud course offered by the CTEF. Dave Gobis and the guys there would be glad to show you how to do it efficiently and profitably.


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## J&J Home Imp.

It would be worth my while to learn from someone. i have turned down some good money custom showers cause I had no clue how to do the pan. The next one I do will be Schluter for sure and I'll see how that goes.


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## Rich Turley

J&J --

I agree, it probably would be good to learn from someone. I hired a guy this summer to help me out with some custom stuff. I paid him $55 an hour, but it was worth every penny. Wether or not anothers experience would be the same might be determined by how you approach it and the guys personality. The guy I hired has oodles of experience and I think he was a closet teacher, seemed to enjoy imparting his knowledge and tips. Course, it doesn't hurt that he was getting hourly.

I still call him now and then with a question and he has referred a couple of customers to me.

Rich


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## J&J Home Imp.

Thats cool. The problem with a bunch of the custom guys around here is they are getting harder and harder to find so they are kinda being greedy with their knowlege so they can keep charging what they do. They are getting double what I get easy, and they stay booked. For being in business only 2 years I am not doing too bad but I still have a bit to learn.


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## Graeson

*2 Kerdi Questions*

1. Using Kerdi in a tub surround - What do I do where the Kerdi meets the tub - AKA what's the proper way to create a seal here?

2. Different job - 2"x12" Island Stone Slate Cladding in a tub surround on Kerdi - the customer wants it to be free of grout joints - Can this be done?

Have at it guys - anyone?

G.:thumbsup:


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## angus242

Graeson said:


> - the customer wants it to be free of grout joints - Can this be done?


I'd say NO. I have first hand knowledge of this:
http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?p=380332#post380332
Read this too:
http://www.fcimag.com/CDA/Articles/Column/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000238555


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## Graeson

Thanks Angus!


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## sawdustrules

*Please Tell Me I'm Reading This Wrong?*

Jim - Please tell me I'm reading this wrong. Do you mean to tell me that you are putting in a system that takes you 20 mins but still billing a customer for more than 4-6 hours of labor? Don't allow me to be anywhere close to your work area or I'll report you to the BBB as a fellow contractor faster thatn you can install this new system!!




JJC said:


> I've been reading this thread and noticing the cost of the Kerdi. It lists for $1.59 per sq. ft. in the large roll. Matt, if you are paying 1.50 per ft. then I'd be looking for a different supplier. Justin is paying a fair price as a contractor for the product. I'll bet you can get it for even less by shopping the distributors. I pay $0.98 per sq. ft. To be fair, I do volume buying.
> I've been using Schluter products for the last 9 or 10 years, and I only do showers and steam rooms with Kerdi. The pans are a good product, but not for every application. When used, it saves a tremendous amount of time, and money. An example is a 48x48" shower. 20 minutes to install shower base and curb for plumber to hook up drain. I still charge the labor as if it is a mud pan going in. First stop of the day, 7AM install shower base, talk with plumber awhile, pick up my stuff, and I'm on my way to another job by 8AM. People should be taking a very serious look into using it more. It's just food for thought.
> Jim


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## Double-A

sawdustrules said:


> Jim - Please tell me I'm reading this wrong. Do you mean to tell me that you are putting in a system that takes you 20 mins but still billing a customer for more than 4-6 hours of labor? Don't allow me to be anywhere close to your work area or I'll report you to the BBB as a fellow contractor faster thatn you can install this new system!!


If he's not selling a mud pan, but a Kerdi system, what difference does it make if he charges the same as a mud pan? A fair price is fair when both parties to the price agree it's fair. 

If he's not time and material, but bid the job, where is the infraction?


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## angus242

Wow, the contractor police are here :gunsmilie:

Seriously though, you have no idea what he's doing. It may take 20 mins to install the foam pan but what prep work does he do? Is there more to his installations? I don't think you should get all bent about this. Schluter stuff is FAR from new. Sounds like you are not familiar with them so why start throwing BBB threats around? 
Maybe you should look into a Schluter system. It may be a way for _you _to increase productivity and profits. :whistling


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## JohnFRWhipple

*Shampoo Shower Niche - Light Feature - Back lite glass*

On a side note.

Thought you might like to see my latest project. A back lite shampoo niches for my kids bathroom here in North Vancouver.

The framing is clad in Kerdi and the glass (White Lami) will be installed with Kerdi Fix and some other custom millwork detail - yet to work out...

It looks great men.

Has anyone else out there built a back lite shower light feature? How did you seal the glass to the shower???

I hade it mocked up and my fingers where crossed at inspection - all good so far...


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## HS345

bert0168 said:


> Greg,
> 
> I don't think so. I'm not sure what method Dan uses but it sounds like he doesn't use the Kerdi on the walls, only the HB. I have seen the install vids for the Kerdi where they obviously use all their products.
> 
> I was just wondering how the hydro is used with the kerdi pans. From the vid and installation instructions, there doesn't seem to be a way.


Usually only a Kerdi Drain and a mud base is used with the Hydroban, not the Schluter Shower Tray. In other words, no Kerdi membrane is used in conjunction with Hydroban, only the Kerdi drain.


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## bert0168

.......double post, sorry


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## opiethetileman

I use the kerdi drain and then hydroban the floor and walls. Schulter makes a good product. My problem with them is this plain and simple. Next week i have a ditra floor to do. Sent a email to my rep on july 6th have a email to prove it and still no response. What I like about the liquid is this its simple less build up and quicker to me to do. Kerdi is great but the corners are tricky trying to get them flat and good.

Laticrete will call me back and send me emails regardless of who I am or how much I buy period. So to me a compnay that comincates to a installer is a far better choice. Because I know if I have issues they will respond. The funny thing is this had a guy helping me ona job. I had the problems and was asking for help. schulter has all my contact info. instead they call him to ask questions and i was right there. that to me is plain up discrimination.


but anyway I have pictures of how I do a shower i can post if ya like.


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## bert0168

opiethetileman said:


> but anyway I have pictures of how I do a shower i can post if ya like.


I'd like to see them, can't have too much info I say.


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## HS345

opiethetileman said:


> I use the kerdi drain and then hydroban the floor and walls. Schulter makes a good product. My problem with them is this plain and simple. *Next week i have a ditra floor to do*. Sent a email to my rep on july 6th have a email to prove it and still no response. What I like about the liquid is this its simple less build up and quicker to me to do. Kerdi is great but the corners are tricky trying to get them flat and good.
> 
> Laticrete will call me back and send me emails regardless of who I am or how much I buy period. So to me a compnay that comincates to a installer is a far better choice. Because I know if I have issues they will respond. The funny thing is this had a guy helping me ona job. I had the problems and was asking for help. schulter has all my contact info. instead they call him to ask questions and i was right there. that to me is plain up discrimination.
> 
> 
> but anyway I have pictures of how I do a shower i can post if ya like.


Dan, just curious, why do you need to contact your rep to do a Ditra floor? :mellow:

For the record, I'm not saying you've done anything to alienate your rep, but.......I never have a hard time getting a hold of Schluter. For some reason, your rep seems to avoid you. Maybe you could get Brian to put a good word in for ya. :biggrin:

If you have a technical question, just call technical services.  1-800-472-4588


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## opiethetileman

I wanted to make I was using the correct thinset to adhere the ditra and the tile to it. Never done ditra before. I called durock this week to ask some questions they called me right back and are sending me a pallet of next generation for free.


I am not saying im dumb but i do not want the floor to fail and then they point the finger at me when I sent a email out to ask the question. yes I am starting to think they avoid me like a plaque.. Its ok I love thier drain and they can sue me over the new drain tops I had custom made on their drain if they like.


all I am saying is a reps job is to support thier company and the people who use it plain and simple.


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## HS345

Dan, are you seriously telling me you need a Schluter rep to tell you what kind of thinset to use with Ditra? Seriously? 

Why can't you simply call the technical services dept? Or, read the installation instructions? I'm just sayin'. :whistling


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## opiethetileman

because I am trying to make sure from the horses mouth for say..........but hey I am just gonna wing it and be done with it...............


the whole point i am trying to make is plain and simple I heard theu the grapevine my rep was not to contact me and that was from andy to my rep. which is BS..........plain and straight up...


i dont ask for free stuff nor will i.but they sent alot of free stuff to the other 2 lovebirds he talks too alot


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## HS345

opiethetileman said:


> because I am trying to make sure from the horses mouth for say..........but hey I am just gonna wing it and be done with it...............
> 
> 
> the whole point i am trying to make is plain and simple I heard theu the grapevine my rep was not to contact me and that was from andy to my rep. which is BS..........plain and straight up...
> 
> 
> i dont ask for free stuff nor will i.but they sent alot of free stuff to the other 2 lovebirds he talks too alot


Any idea why the rep is not to contact you?

Why not call Schluter technical?

What are you gonna use?


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## opiethetileman

laticrete 252 to adhere it to the subfloor and 252 to go on top the ditra... Its the whole point i am trying to make here once again I have tried to seek advice from the rep and schulter no response. Kinda like I got banned from the jb forums and schulter at the same token.



I am over it. Trust me i can figure it out. Also durock sent me some of thier rock on a roll to try and I also called prova flex and got a call back the same day


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## HS345

opiethetileman said:


> laticrete 252 to adhere it to the subfloor and 252 to go on top the ditra... Its the whole point i am trying to make here once again I have tried to seek advice from the rep and schulter no response. Kinda like I got banned from the jb forums and schulter at the same token.
> 
> 
> 
> I am over it. Trust me i can figure it out. Also durock sent me some of thier rock on a roll to try and I also called prova flex and got a call back the same day


Personally, I wouldn't use the 252, or any econo modified mortar, but especially not over the Ditra, unless you're prepared to wait a long time for it to cure. 

Do you have access to Ardex products?

What size tile?

I know you can figure it out Ope, that's my point.


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## angus242

opiethetileman said:


> laticrete 252 to adhere it to the subfloor and 252 to go on top the ditra


Dan, I'd suggest 317 for _over_ the Ditra. It seems that's what Laticrete guys use for non-modified. As for what modified for under Ditra over wood, whatever your fav _good quality_ Laticrete modified is. Don't go with economical...which Greg already said.

What I use? Mapei all the way....Kerabond for under & over. If I need modified, I just add Keralastic to the mixture. 

I'm getting bags of Kerabond ridiculously cheap these days!

And don't think I'm picking on you but the instructions for Ditra/Kerdi are very clear & readily available online. The Ditra handbook is your friend!


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## opiethetileman

they dont sell 317 here just the 272..............but i am a big boy i can figure it out.


Angus you are about the only one I would let pick on me too hahaaaa...I have the schulter bible and will read thru it. Lowes carries mapei so I can see what the prices are there.


but thanks man..............


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## angus242

opiethetileman said:


> they dont sell 317 here just the 272..............but i am a big boy i can figure it out.
> 
> 
> Angus you are about the only one I would let pick on me too hahaaaa...I have the schulter bible and will read thru it. Lowes carries mapei so I can see what the prices are there.
> 
> 
> but thanks man..............


if you have a Daltile nearby...the Kerabond is selling as cheap as BP stock right now...OK, not _that _cheap :laughing:


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## opiethetileman

angus whats in your cheerioes tonite laughter. yeah the 272 is 14 a sack 2 sacks to do the floor its 50 ft............also have the TLS and hydrobarrier ready to go


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## HS345

First choice, Ardex FB-9L, under and over.

Second choice, Versabond, under and over.

Third choice, Laticrete 333+317 under, 317 over.

Mapei is good too, just can't get Kerabond around here. :no: But I wouldn't hesitate to use it. Lowe's used to carry it, but no mas.


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## jhammer7

*Off topic*

Angus, I like the new Avatar,

I think you should start a thread just for that guys quotes or similar insults heard on the job site....on second thought that could get out of hand.

" Save the *DRAMA *for ya _*MAMA"

" You can sleep when your de....

etc.
*_


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## opiethetileman

thanks greg versaround is very common here.but that is very close to lati 252


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## HS345

For whatever reason, lightly modified, high portland content, small sand, whatever, Versabond works great with Ditra.

Again, if you can get some Ardex FB-9L, it is the bomb. Groutable in six hours. :thumbup:


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## angus242

opiethetileman said:


> angus whats in your cheerioes tonite laughter. yeah the 272 is 14 a sack 2 sacks to do the floor its 50 ft.


Subtract, oh, say, 35% from the 272 cost...:whistling

While many might not use it for w-h-a-t-e-v-e-r reason, I don't think any qualified tile installer would say Kerabond sucks.


OK, I just opened myself up on that statement :cursing:


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## Aspire Cont.

*shluter shower*

I have been using their kits for a few years now. Schluter often holds courses where they teach you installation methods and information on their products. Iam a certified installer by the Schluter and have lots of experience with the products. After using their product i would never go back to a conventional pan. Their system is fool proof and well worth the money. Customers that i deal with do not always want the cheapest option (which this is not) they want the option that will last and be hassle free throughout the life of their bathroom. witth the pre sloped pans they can be used in all sized showers. You first lay the sloped pan then use dry pac to fill the gaps where it is needed then you instal kerdi Membrane over the entire pan and wall. Their drain set up is also extremely nice to work with. if you are looking for something funky check out their line drain it is expensive (about 650$) but looks great!


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## Ceramictec

Aspire Cont. said:


> I am a certified installer by the Schluter


ohh boy, here we go again! :no:

Schluter doesn't certify your, you get a certificate of 
completion from attending the class. big difference.

Schluter *WILL NOT* certify any installer.


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## Bud Cline

> Originally Posted by Aspire Cont.
> *I am a certified installer by* the *Schluter*


Now see? I was going to leave that-one alone and not get anything stirred up but it was killing me not to say something. Thanks Ceramictec.

Besides...coming here trying to sell Schluter products is kind of like preaching to the choir.


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## Ceramictec

I think he just took a class and is still on a orange sugar rush 

its good, great product as most of us know.


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## ohiohomedoctor

Ohio Home Doctor installs Schluter showers in Dayton Ohio.


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## Ceramictec

is that like when Ceramictec is a Tampa Florida installer of Kerdi Waterproofed showers ? :thumbup:


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Ceramictec said:


> is that like when Ceramictec is a Tampa Florida installer of Kerdi Waterproofed showers ? :thumbup:


Nope it's like when BC Construction LLC is a installer of WEDI bathroom systems in Roanoke Virginia because kerdi sucks :thumbup:


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## Splinter

But AJS Remodeling Co. on Long Island, NY will choose between Schluter Kerdi, Wedi System, or Hydroban depending on which proves to be the best application for the homeowners project. 













Hi Brian! Long time no see.... :clap:


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## Ceramictec

Yo Alex! :cheesygri

so busy I barley have time to come to forums. 
but I still seem to make it to JB.

dont use Wedi, but do install Kerdi-Board showers 
along with HydroBan & HydroBarrier.:thumbup:


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## world llc

World Contracting LLC just completed a second Schluter innovation workshop that included Kerdi board, Kerdi showers, and Kerdi line linear drains. This year, 3 of us attended in order to spread the knowlege across more employee's.

I am not certain, however I believe we maybe the only game in town for experienced Kerdi installers.


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## GO Remodeling

So now you're certified, right?:whistling


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## world llc

they are still not certifying contractors or stores. I spoke with my rep and he said they bring up the subject in their business meetings, but still have no solution. They cannot stick their neck out for potential human error.


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## GO Remodeling

Hey, just messing with ya.:laughing:


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## MAULEMALL

since you can buy any schluter system in lowes now I won't be pimpin em ...


They want to be diy let em..


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## world llc

MAULEMALL said:


> since you can buy any schluter system in lowes now I won't be pimpin em ...
> 
> 
> They want to be diy let em..


They sell Oatey PVC liner and Laticrete Hydro barrier too

3 very distinct approaches to building a shower

I think it's great that they push an alternative in box stores, maybe other manufacturers will too. and as far as DIY'ers screwing up the install, they do that regardless of the material used, they would have messed up a water in/water out build. 

also, i had 2 Kerdi shower repairs last year, one was a DIY gone wrong and another was a so called tiler that couldn't read directions.


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## GO Remodeling

It's just another market for Schluter. Seriously, I don't care that it's sold there. The big boxes sell a lot of products that pros and DIYers use. Are you going to boycott all of those products too?

Judging by the information box stores sales people know, it's just a future repair for us when DIYers build stuff.


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## world llc

There were also some rumors of a cool new product coming soon...

and by cool, i mean warm


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## world llc

some pics


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## world llc

not sure why i didnt take a pic of the niche, here is schluter's stock pic of the kerdi board niche


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## world llc

and the winner of the starbucks gift cards, World contracting!

Among over 50 of our peers, all with their own assembly pod, we received more than 20% of the votes! I am very proud of my 2 newest guys doing as well as they did on their first build, i just sat back and yelled at them!!

we are ready to take on even more Kerdi showers in our area :clap:


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## GO Remodeling

Did I somehow turn on the Schluter channel?
Great product. I've used it many times. Their drain is the best.

But I choose the product to the situation.


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## world llc

Lol

Well, this is the schluter shower thread... there is also a laticrete hydroban thread, and nobleseal ts, and wedi, etc.

Just trying to stay on topic, for once


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## GO Remodeling

I hope you at least got a t shirt from Schluter.


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## CarpenterSFO

world llc said:


> They sell Oatey PVC liner and Laticrete Hydro barrier too
> 
> 3 very distinct approaches to building a shower
> 
> I think it's great that they push an alternative in box stores, maybe other manufacturers will too. and as far as DIY'ers screwing up the install, they do that regardless of the material used, they would have messed up a water in/water out build.
> 
> also, i had 2 Kerdi shower repairs last year, one was a DIY gone wrong and another was a so called tiler that couldn't read directions.


I think it's fine having it in Lowes, though I can't imagine that DIYers are buying it, much less using it correctly.


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## Ceramictec

CarpenterSFO said:


> I think it's fine having it in Lowes, though I can't imagine that DIYers are buying it, much less using it correctly.


heck, there's even tile pros using it wrong! :blink:


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## world llc

frameless tile insert


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## GO Remodeling

World, got a picture of the whole shower floor? Looks like you went corner to drain on cuts. Just wondering.

Nice drain cuts BTW


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## world llc

olzo55 said:


> World, got a picture of the whole shower floor? Looks like you went corner to drain on cuts. Just wondering.
> 
> Nice drain cuts BTW


This is a picture they put up on their facebook page http://www.facebook.com/schlutersystems yesterday, not of my own work

just wanted to put it up here to give an idea what can be done with it


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## world llc

Another kerdi shower system ready for our professional installation...

View attachment 90863


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## GO Remodeling

Ouch. I hurt my neck trying to see this picture. You'll be hearing from my lawyer! :laughing:


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## world llc

Lol

Portrait shot photos only upload on the computer correctly for some reason, no problem with landscape though.


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## Tech Dawg

world llc said:


> Lol
> 
> Portrait shot photos only upload on the computer correctly for some reason, no problem with landscape though.


I love how all the lettering from the truck wrap fits perfectly in the photo:whistling:laughing:


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## world llc

2 mirrored showers. Linear drains and kerdi board, a fine combo! also a contemporary take on a niche. I'm sure everyone has seen the "after" shots...


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## GO Remodeling

It's got to be the camera lens. The bottom picture, left wall, looks curved. 

Haven't seen the finished pictures.


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## SDel Prete

olzo55 said:


> It's got to be the camera lens. The bottom picture, left wall, looks curved.
> 
> Haven't seen the finished pictures.


Alot of it looks crooked so maybe it is the camera. More importantly. Where is the drain?


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## world llc

it's a panorama shot. here is the finished bath 1 and upload error for every pic of bath 2... here is a video insted


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## SDel Prete

world llc said:


> it's a panorama shot. here is the finished bath 1 and upload error for every pic of bath 2... here is a video insted
> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UhbK2Tg0IE">YouTube Link</a>


Came out pretty cool with the different heads. I always wanted to shower in a shower with multiple heads on different walls lol.


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## world llc

SDel Prete said:


> Came out pretty cool with the different heads. I always wanted to shower in a shower with multiple heads on different walls lol.


like the matrix! a shower within a shower... :mind blown: :clap:

here is bathroom 1, everyone likes this one better...


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## SDel Prete

world llc said:


> like the matrix! a shower within a shower... :mind blown:


One day ill build myself one. One day


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## GO Remodeling

Who manufactures the seat support?


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## GO Remodeling

Just saw the curvy wall tile at a distributors-very cool look. Did you butt the tile or use a small grout joint? It looks seamless however you did it. Very nice. :thumbup:

I've been thinking about using WEDI for under heat matts on slab. Why did you use it? Do you think it provides a quicker heat flow into the tile /less heat going into the slab?How did you attach the thin wedi? Just cement or did you use any fasteners? 

Both projects turned out sweet.:thumbsup:


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman

olzo55 said:


> Just saw the curvy wall tile at a distributors-very cool look. Did you butt the tile or use a small grout joint? It looks seamless however you did it. Very nice. :thumbup:
> 
> I've been thinking about using WEDI for under heat matts on slab. Why did you use it? Do you think it provides a quicker heat flow into the tile /less heat going into the slab?How did you attach the thin wedi? Just cement or did you use any fasteners?
> 
> Both projects turned out sweet.:thumbsup:


I use the 1/8 wedi panels on concrete floors but no heat Mat on most. Def makes a big difference compared to not having it. So I'm sure with a heat Mat it will make a pretty large difference.


Just measured the difference in temps. 

Bare concrete 68f
Tile on wedi 74f
Carpet right next to tile 75f


----------



## world llc

olzo55 said:


> Just saw the curvy wall tile at a distributors-very cool look. Did you butt the tile or use a small grout joint? It looks seamless however you did it. Very nice. :thumbup:
> 
> I've been thinking about using WEDI for under heat matts on slab. Why did you use it? Do you think it provides a quicker heat flow into the tile /less heat going into the slab?How did you attach the thin wedi? Just cement or did you use any fasteners?
> 
> Both projects turned out sweet.:thumbsup:


The benches are slabs of jet mist and are solely supported by the wall tile. The metal strip under them is a strip of schluter quadec, same as the outcide corners. I weigh 200 plus cloths and boots and i was standing on both to make certain they would hold (would have been  if they broke)

The wave is 24" x 24" with 1/16" grout joint and "speckled cement" quartz lock 2 grout.

The idea of using the wedi as a thermal break came about from alot of googling the subject on wire heating on a slab. someone somewhere explained that the entire slab would become the thermal mass and need to saturate to reach temp while the earth below constantly leaches the heat out... by isolating the tile above from the slab below the wire only needs to heat the tile. We used wedi because Kerdi is not warranty'd for floor underlayment where the wedi is. Furthermore, speaking with the Flex Therm rep, he recommended Wedi and honors the warranty, so does wedi. We installed it with just thinset. we wet down the boards and the floor and combed out both in 1/4" and sandwiched it. I was shocked how strong the board became once bonded to the floor! and on and on and on....


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman

world llc said:


> The benches are slabs of jet mist and are solely supported by the wall tile. I weigh 200 plus cloths and boots and i was standing on both to make certain they would hold (would have been  if they broke)
> 
> The wave is 24" x 24" with 1/16" grout joint and "speckled cement" quartz lock 2 grout.
> 
> The idea of using the wedi as a thermal break came about from alot of googling the subject on wire heating on a slab. someone somewhere explained that the entire slab would become the thermal mass and need to saturate to reach temp while the earth below constantly leaches the heat out... by isolating the tile above from the slab below the wire only needs to heat the tile. We used wedi because Kerdi is not warranty'd for floor underlayment where the wedi is. Furthermore, speaking with the Flex Therm rep, he recommended Wedi and honors the warranty, so does wedi. We installed it with just thinset. we wet down the boards and the floor and combed out both in 1/4" and sandwiched it. I was shocked how strong the board became once bonded to the floor! and on and on and on....


For a piece of foam it sure ends up solid. Even for only 1/8" thick.


----------



## world llc

found this in my pics, lol.

how to TLS wave tile


----------



## GO Remodeling

Did you recess the shower glass metal?


----------



## GO Remodeling

world llc said:


> The benches are slabs of jet mist and are solely supported by the wall tile. The metal strip under them is a strip of schluter quadec, same as the outcide corners. I weigh 200 plus cloths and boots and i was standing on both to make certain they would hold (would have been  if they .


I've never trusted just using the tile to hold a seat. Did you cut into the cbd,too? Or did you install a metal channel into the frame and insert the seat into it?


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## kambrooks

world llc said:


> The benches are slabs of jet mist and are solely supported by the wall tile.


Is that a typical installation method?

That whole project looks amazing, awesome job!


----------



## world llc

olzo55 said:


> Did you recess the shower glass metal?


 Yes, all glass track was kerdi-fix'd to the kerdi... no fasteners, no holes in the waterproofing!



olzo55 said:


> I've never trusted just using the tile to hold a seat. Did you cut into the cbd,too? Or did you install a metal channel into the frame and insert the seat into it?


The walls were rocked (and kerdiboarded in wet area) and finished prior to install (waterproof in wet area) then tiled up to where slab went, slab shimmed and set over night. next day finished above, grouted. slav sits against rock, not into it... only 3/8" bearing. Quadec applied to bottom, not supported by anything



kambrooks said:


> Is that a typical installation method?
> 
> That whole project looks amazing, awesome job!


This is the first time I have installed like this other than a pie soap dish. I spent much time googling the subject and came to terms with if it's not too big, it will support.


----------



## world llc

Another 2 day workshop at the Hilton in Parsippany NJ yesterday and today. I jumped in the module with the tile top linear drain, one of the drains i have not yet installed. It was very easy to work with, just wish there was a better tile selection for the finish!

It is a very stealth drain, if the one row on the left was't slightly open more than the ones on the right you wouldn't even know there was a drain there.


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## ArtisanRemod

my workshop partner at the 2.5 day in Plattsburgh. that's 2" board held on with only KerdiFix. nothing else.


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## world llc

i wonder if thinset would hold... that kerdi fix is incredible stuff (with a price tag to match)


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## ArtisanRemod

If the fabric wrapped around all sides of the board it might. I love the Kerdi Fix, always have a couple tubes in the trailer.


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## Floormasta78

PictuRes stolen from my sensei Artzen Franken Gueuze .. whO has mastered the use of all waterproofing systems to create the ultimate waterproofing .. #FRANKENSHOWER #waterproofing


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## world llc

#notsure #hashtags #work #in #contractortalk #:laughing:


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## Floormasta78

#worldllc #OrlandoCar #Matthew #orange #green 

#nomoneyinflooring #LOL


----------



## Floormasta78

Look Matthew , I found you on Google


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## ArtisanRemod

Is the 2" kerdi board added to the niche for layout purposes? And how does that drain get tiled, what is the advantage?


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## brunothedog

world llc said:


> frameless tile insert


how the hell do ya stomp the shìt down the drain when your showering with that?


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## Floormasta78

#FRANKENSHOWER gentlemen... I told you this guy is a genius


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## world llc

brunothedog said:


> how the hell do ya stomp the shìt down the drain when your showering with that?


use your toes:whistling


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## Van Arsdale

True test question..
Would any of you actual tile installation contractors that are professional and know what's really what use one of these rediculous systems in an upstairs tub/shower combo IN YOUR OWN HOME (don't lie if you sell this **** either) ? ? ? 
Or would you paper, wire, float it with mud, pan included. Your office is underneath of this upstairs shower too. What's your honest answer ? ?
Only experienced installers reply please. I'll post these answers world wide. Be honest you knowledged mud guys. No way in hell, you would pick anything over a proper mud job. Period. ..


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen

Van Arsdale said:


> True test question..
> Would any of you actual tile installation contractors that are professional and know what's really what use one of these rediculous systems in an upstairs tub/shower combo IN YOUR OWN HOME (don't lie if you sell this **** either) ? ? ?
> Or would you paper, wire, float it with mud, pan included. Your office is underneath of this upstairs shower too. What's your honest answer ? ?
> Only experienced installers reply please. I'll post these answers world wide. Be honest you knowledged mud guys. No way in hell, you would pick anything over a proper mud job. Period. ..


Uh.....

Yeah. 

(I haven't seen anyone paper-rock-scissors a shower in decades)

(Psssst... 
3 year old thread.
Time keeps on slippin'....slippin', into... the..... future.)

**This "answer" has been approved for release by BRG LLC, and all subsidiaries thereof.


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## Van Arsdale

Blue Ridge ? Help me out with your answer. I was a bit heated when I chimed in earlier but the point and question I stand by and would appreciate any honest input regarding my question. Thanks


----------



## tjbnwi

Not only would I but i have. 3 Schluter Systems in my own home.

Tom


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## Van Arsdale

Fair enough. You wouldn't do it I'm sure if you had doubts so I can't argue that.


----------



## charimon

I would do a Schluter or a Hybrid before I would do a traditional pan. 
they are a Faster, Easier, and Lighter way of achieving the same performance. There is a place in 2016 for traditional mud craft but as other products have come out that give the installer more ease its use has diminished to specialty installations or installers who choose to practice this method by choice.


----------



## overanalyze

Technology and processes evolve for a reason. It is great that you have 100% confidence in the process you use. There are plenty of failures out there because of piss poor installation of the system you hold so dear.

The same probably can be said for Kerdi. I am sure there are some failures because of improper installtion. 

Kerdi, Wedi, and other systems like those are great systems. I would definitely use one in my own house. 

I don't go around calling other systems inferior. It doesn't do any good. A proper pre-slope, liner, mud bed, shower takes time. That time can easily offset material cost savings. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen

Van Arsdale said:


> Blue Ridge ? Help me out with your answer. I was a bit heated when I chimed in earlier but the point and question I stand by and would appreciate any honest input regarding my question. Thanks



I learned all I know about "new" tech from these guys. 
I trust the system. 
I definitely trust these guys. 
(Which is pretty much why I trust the system without having done any seminar attending or backyard stress testing)

I have a full Schluter shower in my upstairs Master. 

For what it's worth, I'm somewhat of a traditionalist at heart. 
It took me a while before I could trust that an orange table cloth was a viable shower system.


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## TNTRenovate

I can plumb and square framing, install Schluter wall and pan system in a day. I can the start setting tile the next morning. Heck of it is small enough you can set the same day. Mud isn't going to move that fast. I don't care how long you've been mudding.


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## GO Remodeling

Doesn't mud need to dry over night before the final coat?


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## nesc39

Van Arsdale said:


> True test question..
> Would any of you actual tile installation contractors that are professional and know what's really what use one of these rediculous systems in an upstairs tub/shower combo IN YOUR OWN HOME (don't lie if you sell this **** either) ? ? ?
> Or would you paper, wire, float it with mud, pan included. Your office is underneath of this upstairs shower too. What's your honest answer ? ?
> Only experienced installers reply please. I'll post these answers world wide. Be honest you knowledged mud guys. No way in hell, you would pick anything over a proper mud job. Period. ..




A mud job with no pre slope in a copper pan like they did forever? No thanks. water seeps through the grout into the mud fills up the copper pan and then you have an actual lake inside of the shower. 

I will however hydroban a mud floor using Schluter drain no problem. 

I love the idea of the Schluter foam floor for renovations because it's split in half and makes plumbing install 10x easier if you don't have access below. There is no way I'm using a full size drop in pan onto a pvc drain from above. It's akward and who knows how good of a seal you get onto the pipe. It could move. 

I'm not a fan of kerdi. The overlaps and corners suck and more importantly, the bond is weak. Grab an edge of your kerdi on your next job and lift. **** peels off way to easy for my liking. Add in the fact that Schluter can't decide if they want you to use modified or un- mmodified and I'm more nervous. Years back their spec sheet said the only mortar to use was unmodified because modified would take too long to bond if the services were impervious. All of a sudden one day I noticed that they now spec the opposite and now they want you to use modified cement. I called them up and said "what about the 50 jobs I did with your previous specs" and they couldn't explain ......


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## Jaws

If i was an installer I would use Schulter pans and Kerdi for showers, they are easier to install and faster. I did one personally for a wet room with 3 benches about 4 years ago. 

My installer doesnt discount labor from Durarock, mud, hydroban to Schluter at all, so it makes no sense for me. Durarock, Hydroban , liner and mud pan never had a leak in 8 years, considerably cheaper. Between new construction, remodels, additions and 40 or so seperate bath remodels thats well over a hundred examples, so not a ton of examples but enough for me. 

I defeinitely trust the Schluter systems though, too many pros backing it to not be real. 

If i did occupied remodels I would look at it if it saved a day. 

I also look at it as a possible sales tool to beat out competition, Ditra seems to have a positive view with HOs during the sale, Kerdi board and Schluter pans might also.


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## Golden view

I do feel like kerdi is the best long term leak proof setup with movement, etc thanks to the flexibility and overlapping. The membrane is strong, very strong. Yes it peels easy but put a tile on it and try to remove that after a week. I've done it. Not easy. It peels because you're applying tension along a line that adds up to zero square inches.


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## TNTRenovate

nesc39 said:


> A mud job with no pre slope in a copper pan like they did forever? No thanks. water seeps through the grout into the mud fills up the copper pan and then you have an actual lake inside of the shower.
> 
> I will however hydroban a mud floor using Schluter drain no problem.
> 
> I love the idea of the Schluter foam floor for renovations because it's split in half and makes plumbing install 10x easier if you don't have access below. There is no way I'm using a full size drop in pan onto a pvc drain from above. It's akward and who knows how good of a seal you get onto the pipe. It could move.
> 
> I'm not a fan of kerdi. The overlaps and corners suck and more importantly, the bond is weak. Grab an edge of your kerdi on your next job and lift. **** peels off way to easy for my liking. Add in the fact that Schluter can't decide if they want you to use modified or un- mmodified and I'm more nervous. Years back their spec sheet said the only mortar to use was unmodified because modified would take too long to bond if the services were impervious. All of a sudden one day I noticed that they now spec the opposite and now they want you to use modified cement. I called them up and said "what about the 50 jobs I did with your previous specs" and they couldn't explain ......


Schluter has always said unmodified between membranes and modified for adhesion to subfloor.

Also, once cured you aren't pulling them apart. Heck thinset isn't even needed for it to be waste tight. Take a square piece of Kerdi band or membrane. Make a slit to the middle and shape the membrane into a cone. Pour some water in it and you won't see a drop come out of the seam or point.


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## TNTRenovate

Golden view said:


> I do feel like kerdi is the best long term leak proof setup with movement, etc thanks to the flexibility and overlapping. The membrane is strong, very strong. Yes it peels easy but put a tile on it and try to remove that after a week. I've done it. Not easy. It peels because you're applying tension along a line that adds up to zero square inches.


Problem with this bogus peel tests is that they are pulling it the next day or before they tile. The thinset isn't cured yet. I can pop a tile off the next day from any substrate with little effort. Wait a few weeks and Kerdi won't peel. You will end up ripping the fabric in half.

Just had a shower where we installed the Kerdi and needed to move the handheld location. Just after 4 days of cure time, the Kerdi split in two. None of it was peeling up easily.


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## nesc39

TNTSERVICES said:


> Schluter has always said unmodified between membranes and modified for adhesion to subfloor.
> 
> Also, once cured you aren't pulling them apart. Heck thinset isn't even needed for it to be waste tight. Take a square piece of Kerdi band or membrane. Make a slit to the middle and shape the membrane into a cone. Pour some water in it and you won't see a drop come out of the seam or point.




I'll take a pic of the brochure I have for you. As far as it never pulling apart. That's hilarious. It peels of like a bad sticker. I won't waste my time making a cone with a slit lol.


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## TNTRenovate

nesc39 said:


> I'll take a pic of the brochure I have for you. As far as it never pulling apart. That's hilarious. It peels of like a bad sticker. I won't waste my time making a cone with a slit lol.


What do I give a chit about some anti Kerdi brochure? I guarantee that you wouldn't be able to pull kerdi of a wall after it fully cured.

It's as dumb as saying I can take a scraper and peek up aqua defense. It doesn't simulate any real world situation.


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## GO Remodeling

It doesn't simulate any real world situation. :thumbsup: Exactly.


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## Inner10

TNTSERVICES said:


> Schluter has always said unmodified between membranes and modified for adhesion to subfloor.
> 
> Also, once cured you aren't pulling them apart. Heck thinset isn't even needed for it to be waste tight. Take a square piece of Kerdi band or membrane. Make a slit to the middle and shape the membrane into a cone. Pour some water in it and you won't see a drop come out of the seam or point.


For Ditra, for Kerdi they use to recommend unmodified to the substrate, now it says "typically unmodified is used" or something like that.


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## nesc39

You guarantee I couldn't pull a strip of fabric off a piece of foam that is adheared with thinset? Then your comparing that to aqua defense...a brushed on liquid.
What are you talking about that doesn't simulate a real world situation? Peeling it off? Your right, no homeowner is gonna try and scrape it off. From my experience and what ive seen, it could definitely peel off a ceiling or wall loaded with marble/granite.

I done easy 50 floors and showers using it because that's what was specd. Lots of guys like it. Even learned to installed it from the schluter rep. So far I haven't had an issue but TO ME i think it's weaker system than hydroban . I've never pulled off kerdi longer than 3 days so I can't comment personally on 4 or 10 but the cement was absolutely dry. 
I like some of their products, just don't like using kerdi. I don't wanna comb out my entire shower twice, I don't wanna roll my walls and floor. I don't wanna order kerdi fix and mix extra cement. If I have to use it than I will ( when using their pans). The theory of a continuous sheet is good, I just don't like the bond. 
I choose to use hydroban for ease of use and I like the bond better. It makes me nervous over dry pack sometimes because the top can be flakey but overall thats my pick. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Golden view

nesc39 said:


> I'll take a pic of the brochure I have for you. As far as it never pulling apart. That's hilarious. It peels of like a bad sticker. I won't waste my time making a cone with a slit lol.


It's strong. It's almost a negative how strong it is, because trying to remove a tile can ruin the waterproofing. Any product can be tested in a non-real world application that makes it look bad.


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## TNTRenovate

nesc39 said:


> You guarantee I couldn't pull a strip of fabric off a piece of foam that is adheared with thinset? Then your comparing that to aqua defense...a brushed on liquid.
> What are you talking about that doesn't simulate a real world situation? Peeling it off? Your right, no homeowner is gonna try and scrape it off. From my experience and what ive seen, it could definitely peel off a ceiling or wall loaded with marble/granite.
> 
> I done easy 50 floors and showers using it because that's what was specd. Lots of guys like it. Even learned to installed it from the schluter rep. So far I haven't had an issue but TO ME i think it's weaker system than hydroban . I've never pulled off kerdi longer than 3 days so I can't comment personally on 4 or 10 but the cement was absolutely dry.
> I like some of their products, just don't like using kerdi. I don't wanna comb out my entire shower twice, I don't wanna roll my walls and floor. I don't wanna order kerdi fix and mix extra cement. If I have to use it than I will ( when using their pans). The theory of a continuous sheet is good, I just don't like the bond.
> I choose to use hydroban for ease of use and I like the bond better. It makes me nervous over dry pack sometimes because the top can be flakey but overall thats my pick.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm ONLY addressing your claim that is not a good system because you can pull out off before outs fully cured. 3 days is dry but not cured. If you've got as much experience as you say you'd know the difference.

My comparison was valid. Pulling a piece of doesn't simulate ANY real world situation, not even on a ceiling. The forces used to peel it are not the same as gravity pulling down.

I completely agree about the other installation issues. I am not pushing kerdi as I'm also moving away for similar rains. But I'm not going back to roll on. Too many steps and too much time to apply and wait to dry.


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## avenge

Golden view said:


> It's strong. It's almost a negative how strong it is, because trying to remove a tile can ruin the waterproofing. Any product can be tested in a non-real world application that makes it look bad.


I had to replace a tile about 2 years later it tore rather than peel off, patched it with Kerdi fix. I'm not a big fan of Kerdi thinking of going towards Wedi but I have to find a supplier in my area.


----------



## CarpenterSFO

I have 3 Schluter showers and several Ditra floors in my house, including an exterior tiled deck, so I would have no qualms about the Schluter products.

That being said, Hydroban still gets some props from me for some situations - as far as I know it's the only membrane supported for swimming pools, hot-tubs, and permanently submerged applications.


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## TNTRenovate

Inner10 said:


> For Ditra, for Kerdi they use to recommend unmodified to the substrate, now it says "typically unmodified is used" or something like that.


Any wood substrate calls for:

latex portland cement (p.c.) mortar – ANSI
A118.11

Concrete calls for unmodified, but I don't think that they have ever recommended unmodified over wood subfloor system. Regardless his indication was that they flip flop back and forth and can't make up their mind, when that isn't true.


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## nesc39

Inner10 said:


> For Ditra, for Kerdi they use to recommend unmodified to the substrate, now it says "typically unmodified is used" or something like that.




100% correct it was unmodified to the substrate. Now they changed to modified and they can't explain why


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## TNTRenovate

nesc39 said:


> 100% correct it was unmodified to the substrate. Now they changed to modified and they can't explain why


When did they say to use unmodified? I can't wait for this answer.


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## nesc39

I'm a dick and I'm gonna apologize to tnt. They didn't change it. That was my mistake I'm sorry


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TNTRenovate

I've just gone and read things back to 2005 and it was stated that Schluter's instruction, as they do now, was to use the recommend thinset for the substrate.


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## Dan_Watson

We have always used Ditraset. 

From johnbridges.com

Several years ago Schluter Systems®, the maker of the Ditra and Kerdi tile setting membranes, announced that the company would no longer support the use of modified mortars in the bonding of tile and stone to its membrane products. Only un-modified dry set mortar could be used. The mortars used to bond the membranes to substrates would remain “appropriate to the substrate,” meaning that modified mortar would continue to be used in bonding Ditra to plywood, for example.

A wave of controversy and misunderstanding developed as a result of that announcement. Most tiles are made from porcelain today, and for years thin set manufacturers and the tile industry in general have insisted that porcelain tiles be bonded with modified mortars. And here is Schluter stating flatly that you should bond all tile and stone with dry set mortar when using Kerdi and Ditra. So who should you listen to, the person who makes thin set or the one who makes the membrane?

Since some modified mortars need air to dry, Schluter is concerned that trapped between two impervious surfaces, say Kerdi and porcelain tile, the mortar might never fully set. And since Schluter does in fact make its own products, the company certainly has the right to decide which adhesives can be used in their installation.


----------



## charimon

nesc39 said:


> Years back their spec sheet said the only mortar to use was unmodified because modified would take too long to bond if the services were impervious. All of a sudden one day I noticed that they now spec the opposite and now they want you to use modified cement. I called them up and said "what about the 50 jobs I did with your previous specs" and they couldn't explain ......


Could you give me a reference to the Schluter literature. I know they want you to use Modified on the Ditra to subfloor when it is over plywood/ osb subfloor, but I am not aware of any change of spec in other applications and want to make sure I am up to date.


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## nesc39

Dan_Watson said:


> We have always used Ditraset.
> 
> From johnbridges.com
> 
> Several years ago Schluter Systems, the maker of the Ditra and Kerdi tile setting membranes, announced that the company would no longer support the use of modified mortars in the bonding of tile and stone to its membrane products. Only un-modified dry set mortar could be used. The mortars used to bond the membranes to substrates would remain “appropriate to the substrate,” meaning that modified mortar would continue to be used in bonding Ditra to plywood, for example.
> 
> A wave of controversy and misunderstanding developed as a result of that announcement. Most tiles are made from porcelain today, and for years thin set manufacturers and the tile industry in general have insisted that porcelain tiles be bonded with modified mortars. And here is Schluter stating flatly that you should bond all tile and stone with dry set mortar when using Kerdi and Ditra. So who should you listen to, the person who makes thin set or the one who makes the membrane?
> 
> Since some modified mortars need air to dry, Schluter is concerned that trapped between two impervious surfaces, say Kerdi and porcelain tile, the mortar might never fully set. And since Schluter does in fact make its own products, the company certainly has the right to decide which adhesives can be used in their installation.



That is what I was thinking of, I knew they changed something but i obviously had it confused. That is my mistake and I apologize. 

The tile shop floor displays are always being changed. We just lay tar paper down and stick to that. Hundreds of people walk on it all day and it never cracks or moves. I always wondered if that would work over a wood floor in a house. Using no cement? Why was the bond to substrate so important if ditra was meant to give a little bit anyway? Well Ardex has an uncoupling membrane that appears to be the same idea as ditra only its floating....no thin set under it at all. They claim it's fine over wood


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GO Remodeling

That Ardex product will change sealed concrete installations (think basements). Shot blasting and grinding are out.


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## Inner10

TNTSERVICES said:


> When did they say to use unmodified? I can't wait for this answer.


The shower systems installation handbook indicates unmodified. 

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/5c/5c536bb8-fb5d-4c88-8581-36677fdc571b.pdf


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## TNTRenovate

Inner10 said:


> The shower systems installation handbook indicates unmodified.
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/5c/5c536bb8-fb5d-4c88-8581-36677fdc571b.pdf


What's your point? Go back and read my initial post. I said that they have always said unmodified between membrane and modified to subfloor. I am not sure what you are trying to argue or prove, but I never said anything about showers.

What I have said is that they haven't flip flop like someone indicated and they also said that Schluter never said why they changed. The furthest back I have gone is 2004. And even back then (12 years ago) Schluter was saying to use what is recommended for the substrate. And that's what I said. I did generalize at first and said subfloor, but I was using the term sublfoor for wood subfloor, not concrete or gypsum. I did clarify that I meant wood subfloor. If you use marine grade plywood, you should be using modified thinset, not unmodified. So even in a shower system it will be dictated by the substrate.


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## charimon

nesc39 said:


> 100% correct it was unmodified to the substrate. Now they changed to modified and they can't explain why


The reason they went to a modified to be used under Ditra on wood or OSB subfloors is two fold

The Primary reason is that unmodified mortar does not bond well to wood and needs latex/acrylic polymers to bind it. 
Additionally the reason for using UNmodified in Shcluter applications- the inability for water vapor to migrate from the assembly (plastic to tile), does not come into play as the bond is wood to fleece with the wood being able to absorb the moisture.


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## PrecisionFloors

nesc39 said:


> That is what I was thinking of, I knew they changed something but i obviously had it confused. That is my mistake and I apologize.
> 
> The tile shop floor displays are always being changed. We just lay tar paper down and stick to that. Hundreds of people walk on it all day and it never cracks or moves. I always wondered if that would work over a wood floor in a house. Using no cement? Why was the bond to substrate so important if ditra was meant to give a little bit anyway? Well Ardex has an uncoupling membrane that appears to be the same idea as ditra only its floating....no thin set under it at all. They claim it's fine over wood
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It will work. Tile doesn't need to be "bonded", it needs to be supported. The Ardex membrane is a combination of the Ditra and tar paper methods combined. I've set thousands of feet over tar paper in showrooms, never had a single issue with one. They were all over slab, not wood subfloor though.


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## m1911

I called Schluter tech support today and was told it's acceptable to use unmodified between plywood floor and kerdi pan.

Also, they said I could trim the pan a couple inches to accommodate existing drain location and fill other side with mortar. Interesting.


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## CO762

Inner10 said:


> The shower systems installation handbook indicates unmodified.
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/5c/5c536bb8-fb5d-4c88-8581-36677fdc571b.pdf


lot's of different same product products out there now....custom has their redgard "uncoupling" mat and they recommend modified:

http://www.custombuildingproducts.c...s-underlayments/redgard®-uncoupling-mat.aspx#


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## AGullion

I use both schluter and traditional systems, and there are simple , common sense things you can do with either system to insure they perform and minimize any chances for problems . For example, schluter pans can be coved up the wall to eliminate seams , and can be overlapped and bonded with liquid waterproofing rather than thinset .

Traditional two piece drains can be modified for better performance as well.


Remember though, you have to know the rules before you start breaking them.


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## TNTRenovate

If you use Kerdi Board there is no covering the pan with the wall membrane.

And if you are using the membrane you still have build up in the corners. There is no way to eliminate the build up unless you break the rules and void the warranty. Why pay $100 a board to void is warranty? Why not just install a system that doesn't require any overlap and maintains the warranty when you use a liquid on the seams?


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## CO762

The only thing I had fail was discoloration in mapei grout. All of this science stuff is marketing--I mean great. schlooter said you have to use unmodified, yet custom's plastic waffle says to use modified. The wedi drain's weep holes confuse me.

There needs to be a free lb of good coffee included with every purchase.


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## AGullion

The plethora of systems creates a lot of confusion, and that leads to a lot of failures. Your best bet, above all, is to thoroughly understand what you are doing.

Even the manufacturers are often wrong in their understanding of their products limitations.


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## TNTRenovate

How are the manufacturers wrong on their limitations? I think they know their product far better than anyone. What I think we mistake as their lack of understanding is more lack of support. They know how their products will be abused and giving more leash to the end user would mean pushing those boundaries.

If you want people to drive 60, you set the speed limit to 50.


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## AGullion

Here are a few examples ...

Schluter recommends tape where the floor meets the wall, and you can simply cove it up the wall and eliminate 20 feet plus of seam in most showers, and drastically reduce the chance for a failure . A seam you don't make can't fail.

Also building it up creates flatness issues.

Oatey builds shower drains with weepholes that are ridiculously small.

What manufacturers are doing is working to create systems that people with limited knowledge can have success with . that's good.

We as contractors need to work to not have limited knowledge, and know what you can and can't do with these systems .


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## gbruzze1

AGullion said:


> Here are a few examples ...
> 
> Schluter recommends tape where the floor meets the wall, and you can simply cove it up the wall and eliminate 20 feet plus of seam in most showers, and drastically reduce the chance for a failure . A seam you don't make can't fail.
> 
> Also building it up creates flatness issues.
> 
> Oatey builds shower drains with weepholes that are ridiculously small.
> 
> What manufacturers are doing is working to create systems that people with limited knowledge can have success with . that's good.
> 
> We as contractors need to work to not have limited knowledge, and know what you can and can't do with these systems .




So are you saying if you did a full Schluter system, with Schluter pan and kerdi board,instead of covering pan in kerdi, and then Schluter band around the pan at the wall intersection, you would just run the shower pan kerdi up the wall a few inches?


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## AGullion

Why not?

My point is you can optimize the system if you think about it.

You can also cove it up the studs .

As far as warranty goes, these companies warranty nothing we do.

Your best warranty is a making sure it can't leak.


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## TNTRenovate

AGullion said:


> Here are a few examples ...
> 
> Schluter recommends tape where the floor meets the wall, and you can simply cove it up the wall and eliminate 20 feet plus of seam in most showers, and drastically reduce the chance for a failure . A seam you don't make can't fail.
> 
> Also building it up creates flatness issues.
> 
> Oatey builds shower drains with weepholes that are ridiculously small.
> 
> What manufacturers are doing is working to create systems that people with limited knowledge can have success with . that's good.
> 
> We as contractors need to work to not have limited knowledge, and know what you can and can't do with these systems .


Again, what is their reason for this recommendation. It's certainly not a lack of understanding their limitations. But covering the pan with the wall membrane wouldn't void the warranty or go against the manufactures directions. I have heard it many times from Schluter that this is an acceptable practice.

Do Oatey drains fail due to the small weep holes? How much water needs to be handled? If one feels that a product is inferior then use another. But if they are still making it and people are still using it, it must not be that inferior.

What system has been created that was designed for individuals with limited knowledge can use? Schluter offers extensive training for their products, along with most of the other major manufacturers. I think their goal is to make things more efficient with less costs involved. But I don't see them making systems for people with less knowledge.

If you mean I can install a Kerdi pan without the knowledge of a mud pan, sure, but I doubt most installers today know how to set tile over a sand bed.

I don't think that I suggested that we should limit ourselves. But there is something to be said about finding a system that works for you and stick with it.


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## TNTRenovate

AGullion said:


> Why not?
> 
> My point is you can optimize the system if you think about it.
> 
> You can also cove it up the studs .
> 
> As far as warranty goes, these companies warranty nothing we do.
> 
> Your best warranty is a making sure it can't leak.


While I agree that they only warranty that matters is mine, it's a load of horse hockey that a manufacturer won't warranty what we do. I know plenty of contractors who have had success getting Schluter to warranty their product and many times it had nothing to do with their product.

A guy I know went in to a house where the previous contract messed up the Kerdi pan and membrane bad. He called his Schluter rep and they warrantied the installation and gave him all new products.


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## AGullion

Dude, I don't get on here to argue or prove anything , and don't have time for it.

I'm saying that people need to do more than blindly follow instructions, they need to learn and understand every facet of their trade.

Yes, 4 weepholes 3/16 " big in a 20 square foot shower is a poor ratio , and doomed to fail . It can be remedied in 5 minutes with a 5/16 " drill bit .

I was a distributor rep and factory rep for several years , supplying product.....schluter does an incredible job and I'm factory trained by them , but it doesn't replace my field experience or common sense .

I 've been told both brilliant and idiotic things by manufacturers .


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## AGullion

You don't need a warranty if what you do works.


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## TNTRenovate

AGullion said:


> Dude, I don't get on here to argue or prove anything , and don't have time for it.
> 
> I'm saying that people need to do more than blindly follow instructions, they need to learn and understand every facet of their trade.
> 
> Yes, 4 weepholes 3/16 " big in a 20 square foot shower is a poor ratio , and doomed to fail . It can be remedied in 5 minutes with a 5/16 " drill bit .
> 
> I was a distributor rep and factory rep for several years , supplying product.....schluter does an incredible job and I'm factory trained by them , but it doesn't replace my field experience or common sense .
> 
> I 've been told both brilliant and idiotic things by manufacturers .


Dude, if you give your opinion be ready for someone to disagree. If you don't want to discuss then don't participate. You also don't have to engage. You could just let me comments lie. 

How are 3/16" holes not big enough for 20 square feet of shower. I never understood this logic. There will never be enough water that 4 3/16" holes couldn't handle. If their is a failure it was due to improper prep of the holes, too steep of a slop or failure of the tile and grout it self.

I would also differentiate between an individual who works for the manufacturer and the manufacturer itself. I doubt all of your advice over the years was on target and accurate. I bet if your present self met yourself 10 years ago you would shake your head at the advice you would gave back then.


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## TNTRenovate

AGullion said:


> You don't need a warranty if what you do works.


Really? For someone who worked for a distributor you would think you would know that not everything that is shipped is defect free.

Recently I installed some Kohler faucets. Guess what, I had to use the manufacturers warranty. So I did need a warranty.

If Schluter had a bad run of Kerdi membrane and you installed it, I would doubt this is the song that you would be singing.


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## CO762

AGullion said:


> Even the manufacturers are often wrong in their understanding of their products limitations.


What's amusing is when manufacturers tell ya you can't do something that later they say you can, or to do something different. Customer service and tech people can be different, as can be their field reps. Sometimes it seems as if directions are suggestions. 
Like you said, the best bet is to have an understanding of what is going on and be open to suggestions...and OK with disregarding them.


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## m1911

Schluter recommends using modified between plywood subfloor and their pan. Their tech support told me go ahead and use unmodified. OK.


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## AGullion

Thank you. I 've seen all sides of the supply chain, and you are exactly right , especially with technical people being inconsistent.

It's great to have faith in a product or system, but even better to understand all that are out there, if for no other reason than to tell a client .."we don't use that, and here is why....."

Honestly I'm lost why some people constantly take issue with whatever I post , when I try to lay it out there like it is, or at least talk based on my experience.


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## TNTRenovate

Maybe they are speaking from their experience. Why are people too damn sensitive when it comes to people disagreeing with their opinion? Why do grown men whine about such things?

I find it funny that some don't mind taking positive feedback.


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## AGullion

I rest my case.


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## TNTRenovate

m1911 said:


> Schluter recommends using modified between plywood subfloor and their pan. Their tech support told me go ahead and use unmodified. OK.


Their instruction recommend modified, but it also says to follow the recommended thinset for the substrate.

It doesn't say that you can only use modified or you void the warranty.


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## TNTRenovate

AGullion said:


> I rest my case.


So does that mean no more whining about people disagreeing with you? Thank God! :laughing:


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## m1911

TNTSERVICES said:


> Maybe they are speaking from their experience. Why are people too damn sensitive when it comes to people disagreeing with their opinion? Why do grown men whine about such things?
> 
> I find it funny that some don't mind taking positive feedback.


For example saying terminating tile without bullnose looks hackish...:clap:


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## TNTRenovate

m1911 said:


> For example saying terminating tile without bullnose looks hackish...:clap:


Help me with my memory on that one...


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## m1911

TNTSERVICES said:


> Help me with my memory on that one...


Really :laughing:
A certain bath tile job with missing mitered corners...:laughing:


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## Xtrememtnbiker

m1911 said:


> Really :laughing:
> A certain bath tile job with missing mitered corners...:laughing:


Where's Barri been anyway?


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## m1911

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Where's Barri been anyway?


We're not naming names...
:laughing:


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## TNTRenovate

m1911 said:


> Really :laughing:
> A certain bath tile job with missing mitered corners...:laughing:


I don't remember anything about mitered corners, I know that someone called me a hack tiler because of some lippage on a travertine job I did. Someone was bitter and butt hurt that I didn't like how he terminated his border into bullnose and said it looked unfinished.


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## m1911

TNTSERVICES said:


> I don't remember anything about mitered corners, I know that someone called me a hack tiler because of some lippage on a travertine job I did. Someone was bitter and butt hurt that I didn't like how he terminated his border into bullnose and said it looked unfinished.


I think that sounds about right...my memory is foggy. 
Schluter profiles would have probably solved that design issue...


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## CO762

m1911 said:


> Schluter recommends using modified between plywood subfloor and their pan. Their tech support told me go ahead and use unmodified. OK.


Maybe if you used ditra under the pan?  I think we're told that ditra should be used for everything.

So if the logic is drying between the plastic and the tile, why does one manufacturer of plastic sheet suggest unmodified and another modified? And if wedi is waterproof, again, why do they say use modified? And if we grout it with a super duper high tech grout, it will never cure!!! omg!!!!!! 

kerabond/keralistic was a great product for that use. One time I needed some more and was going to milk up some modified and someone said I shouldn't do that as it already had latex. Later they came out with different grades of ultraflex and someone said the difference was some had more latex in it than others. 

like a shlooter board once said, it's made to be 'idiot/goof proof'.
well, has anyone other than manufactures peddling their products wondered why idiots/goofs are doing this?


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## GO Remodeling

CO762 said:


> Maybe if you used ditra under the pan?  I think we're told that ditra should be used for everything.
> 
> So if the logic is drying between the plastic and the tile, why does one manufacturer of plastic sheet suggest unmodified and another modified? And if wedi is waterproof, again, why do they say use modified? And if we grout it with a super duper high tech grout, it will never cure!!! omg!!!!!!
> 
> Drying takes longer with modified over Schluter products. I speak from experience. It can be done, just need to wait many days longer. Who has time for that?
> 
> Interesting point about WEDI. But it depends on tile size as well. Setting 2'x2' tiles with Mapei LFT, I'll wait a 2 days before grouting. Just my preference.
> 
> Back in the day when K/K was one of the few options in premium thinset, you could pull 12" tile up if you need to the next day. But you would see the drying pattern--the middle was still not dry. Now stick that highly modified under even larger tile and you'll need to wait even longer.
> 
> Most of the newer grouts need the thinset/mudbed to be pretty dry before installing the grout. Fusion Pro is one that somehow doesn't need as much substrate drying as others.


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