# How much to charge per hour??



## Badoish

I've just started my business and need some help on how much to charge an hour for residential, commercial and light industrial electrical work in western PA, and Eastern OH. For twenty years experience I was thinking $46. Does that sound too high?


----------



## mdshunk

Badoish said:


> I've just started my business and need some help on how much to charge an hour for residential, commercial and light industrial electrical work in western PA, and Eastern OH. For twenty years experience I was thinking $46. Does that sound too high?


Sounds way too low, to me. I'm in south central PA, and my first hour is almost double that. Figure your real costs and go from there.


----------



## Richard

welp, I'm just a paint slinger...but I know of many painters who are charging $50+. Electricians get paid more than painters, any day. Especially good ones with 20 years experience. 

In short, I feel if you truly are a great electrician you could charge more.


----------



## Teetorbilt

Sounds way low to me too.

My sparky charges $45.00 moonlighting and I give him all kinds of stuff. For my jobs his overhead is practically 0.


----------



## PressurePros

too high??? you are a skilled tradesman with 20 years experience man. Don't undersell your value you will set a bad precendence (sp) I bill a hundred an hour for pressure washing (2 guys)


----------



## DAVIS081404

I dont know about your area, but here in CA hacks charge more than that. Find a price that you can make a profit from and stick with it. I had a hard time at first in thinking -will people pay that-. They will and if you do a good job they will call you back. Just remember to charge enought to cover all your costs and MAKE A PROFIT.


----------



## GregS

I charge $55CAD per hour for pulling wire, mounting plasmas, etc.. That works out to about $50USD, so as an experienced electrician, you should charge more! 

No point in being the cut-rate guy who ends up making so little that he can't keep his truck running well, his tools from rusting, a proper inventory and owing every supplier around town!

As the above said, do a good job that you can be proud of and charge a reasonable amount for that service. Otherwise you might find yourself cutting corners and hating the job later on.


----------



## AirPro

Buy the book "Markup and Profit" by Michael C. Stone, and Every book Ellen Rohr has written (where did the money go? , how much should I charge?..etc.)


EDIT: Read Where did the money go first!


----------



## Sparky Joe

Union contractor; 60 per hour in Salt Lake City


----------



## Speedy Petey

Sparky Joe said:


> Union contractor; 60 per hour in Salt Lake City


Is that your side job rate? Or your bosses rate?

I highly doubt a union contractor is charging only $60/hr for a j-man.
I get almost that here in lowly Upstate NY.


----------



## Sparky Joe

Speedy Petey said:


> Is that your side job rate? Or your bosses rate?
> 
> I highly doubt a union contractor is charging only $60/hr for a j-man.
> I get almost that here in lowly Upstate NY.


That's bosses rate, I like 45 an hour myself(double-time no tax at the present time).

Perhaps it's because we take twice as long to get it done :laughing: 

Just kidding, my boss is a very fair and decent person. 

In fact recently the GC we do all electrical for was screwing with the bid proposal on a spread sheet(rearranging stuff or something), and when he submitted it forgot the main feeders for one piece of switch gear, huge amount of money, but my boss figured out a way to do it with the profit margin he already figured in. Instead of copper we pulled aluminum, 4 parallel runs of 900 MCM aluminum, don't know how that translates to copper or even what the amps on the gear was, I was just there for the pull, biggest damn wire I've ever seen, pretty fun day though.

He should've to told the GC to eat in my opinion, but that's the kind of guy he is.


----------



## mahlere

sparky,

how many men in the shop?

for example, 100 men - $15/hr/man gross = $1500/hr to cover overhead.


----------



## Sparky Joe

mahlere said:


> sparky,
> 
> how many men in the shop?
> 
> for example, 100 men - $15/hr/man gross = $1500/hr to cover overhead.


No, that's 60 per hour per man, no matter if they're a J-dub or apprentice.

But our shop is small with 15 journeymen, and 6 apprentices, and the endless supply on the book when the job calls for them. and has been doing it that way(the way they like) for 35+ years.


----------



## mdcorreia

*How much to charge?*

Formula: Area's journeyperson's hourly rate for the type of work (commercial, ind. res. etc.) and DOUBLE IT X each worker regardless if an apprentice or journeyman. Of course if less than 8 hours of work for a certain job, I would charge tripple for the first hour.
I have mention this before; If I get any inkling that a contractor in my area charges peanuts for his/her work I will keep them busy by referring them to any unwanted customers who have a problematic, a nightmare type of project or personality or those who have failed - on a credit check.
( the key is keep them busy so they don't have time to interfere with your bids.)
Maybe somebody will say "speak for your self" but I have to also say this: Electrical contractors are the most ignorant people in construction who don't have a clue on how much to charge for the work when starting their business. This is due mostly from a luck of knowledge about how long each item takes to be completed. I took manhours notes for 2 years before I went on my own, therefore, I had no difficulties in knowing how much to charge.


----------



## excellencee

You must know your costs to be able to set your hourly rate. When I started my business, I based my rates on what my former employers were charging for me. I hope they had better luck with those prices than I did. I don't know how I stayed in business charging $28 an hour while wiring a million-plus home on a country club. After about three years of losses, I figured out how much it actually costs me an hour to be in business, then added profit. Am I the lowest...no. I let the trunkslammers and moonlights try to be the lowest. I'm not the highest either, but I get my share of the work and make a profit. I also have different rates for different types of work based on billable hours per day for that type of work. Remember you are a highly trained, licensed and insured professional...bill accordingly.


----------



## faber307

I think you do have to keep checking your competition. Customers get a feel for the going rate in the area. I travel 100miles across 3 local union jurisdictions. The package fluctuates by at least $7.00 per hour.

Union contractors on my route (this is across jurisdictions) is $60.00 to $85.00 that I know about. You might be able to get more. but then there are alot of electrical companies out there. I always try to stay in the pack to take at least one excuse away from the customer to hire brand "X" 

And this is purely from a repeat customer relation standpoint.


----------



## Cobe1976

*Re.; what to charge.*

underbidding is killing the mechanical trades. making a profit is perfectly OK!


----------



## mdcorreia

Badoish said:


> I've just started my business and need some help on how much to charge an hour for residential, commercial and light industrial electrical work in western PA, and Eastern OH. For twenty years experience I was thinking $46. Does that sound too high?





go 2 times the going journeyman's rate. Are the journeypersons there getting $23.00hr? then you can go $46.00


----------



## [email protected]&R

mdcorreia said:


> go 2 times the going journeyman's rate. Are the journeypersons there getting $23.00hr? then you can go $46.00


That does not seem like good advice to me. Here a J-man gets between $12-$14 per hour. We would never be able to stay in business if we charged $24-$28 per hour. We also would be the low baller since most companys charge between $40 and $60 per hour. For us insurance and other OH would eat through that $12-$14 and leave us owing money.

Cost of materials+overhead+profit= selling price


----------



## Sparky Joe

[email protected]&R said:


> That does not seem like good advice to me. Here a J-man gets between $12-$14 per hour. We would never be able to stay in business if we charged $24-$28 per hour. We also would be the low baller since most companys charge between $40 and $60 per hour. For us insurance and other OH would eat through that $12-$14 and leave us owing money.
> 
> Cost of materials+overhead+profit= selling price


12-14 per hour?:blink: your kidding right?
How can a man live on that kind of money, and don't even think about having a family. How much does a home cost there, 50k? and gas is still 60 cents?
Though it does make me realize why your insurance on a guy is more than what he gets paid :laughing: 

By the way, what does everyone figure for profit? 5%?


----------



## fullyenergized

Hello All.New here.That $12-$14 hour is here in NE PA.One EC here in my area pays his guys that.Wires houses so cheep that only cares that he gets the job.In my area they worry more about not getting the job then making money.The mind set is so pathetic.


----------



## Bob Kovacs

Union journeyman rate here in NJ (rate billed by electrical sub to us as the GC) is in the range of $98-105/hour depending on the sub's OH calculations. Of that, the base journeyman's rate is around $38/hour not including the fringe package.

Bob


----------



## Sparky Joe

Bob Kovacs said:


> Union journeyman rate here in NJ (rate billed by electrical sub to us as the GC) is in the range of $98-105/hour depending on the sub's OH calculations. Of that, the base journeyman's rate is around $38/hour not including the fringe package.
> 
> Bob


38 on the check for a JW in NJ? not bad :thumbsup: what local?


----------



## sniperelectech

This may sound a little sneaky but.... I called a couple of the main electrical contractors in 2 cities in my area and asked how much they charged an hour. Then i just under cut some and made sure I wasn't the cheapest. I figured the big boys had more overhead and had to charge more and the cheapest guys made no money and too much work. So the cheap guys are too busy to get to people and they check prices and your cheaper than others so you get the job and make a referance. Make sure you make enough to put back into your company to upgrade and build it up. Or you will be stuck with one van and no help like the cheap guy.


----------



## mahlere

sniperelectech said:


> This may sound a little sneaky but.... I called a couple of the main electrical contractors in 2 cities in my area and asked how much they charged an hour. Then i just under cut some and made sure I wasn't the cheapest. I figured the big boys had more overhead and had to charge more and the cheapest guys made no money and too much work. So the cheap guys are too busy to get to people and they check prices and your cheaper than others so you get the job and make a referance. Make sure you make enough to put back into your company to upgrade and build it up. Or you will be stuck with one van and no help like the cheap guy.


we use people like you as an example of what not to do....you really don't understand overhead.....ad you surely do not understand overhead per manhour.....how much money to you anticipate generating this year? how much OH $ will you spend? i always joked about pricing that way, just never thought anyone was silly enough to do it....


----------



## Celtic

Bob Kovacs said:


> Of that, the base journeyman's rate is around $38/hour not including the fringe package.



It's actually closer to $45/hr in the envelope at the end of the week.


----------



## sniperelectech

mahlere said:


> we use people like you as an example of what not to do....you really don't understand overhead.....ad you surely do not understand overhead per manhour.....how much money to you anticipate generating this year? how much OH $ will you spend? i always joked about pricing that way, just never thought anyone was silly enough to do it....


I charge 55 dollars an hour. Tell me how if i'm wrong but if I where to base my monthly overhead and calculate that in my per hour price it could flucuate alot based on how much work I get. Therefore the less work I get the more per hour I would have to charge. Of course the only constants per hour I would have are gas% labor per hour and a % for tools and vehicle repair. I think this is a good way to start till you can average you monthly hours vs your cost to work. SO what I was saying is this is a good base to start off with then as you get accustomed to what you bring in and send out. I started at 45 and raised to 55 as I adjusted to my over head. And when I have to hire more employees and pay all cost that go with it I will have to raise my prices again but still be competitive. The more hours per month the more profit. And if I have more work than I desire I can raise my prices to shave off some cheaper customers and make a higher profit also. I think there are more variables than just overhead alone in choosing the price you charge.:thumbsup:


----------



## mahlere

sniperelectech said:


> I charge 55 dollars an hour. Tell me how if i'm wrong but if I where to base my monthly overhead and calculate that in my per hour price it could flucuate alot based on how much work I get. Therefore the less work I get the more per hour I would have to charge. Of course the only constants per hour I would have are gas% labor per hour and a % for tools and vehicle repair. I think this is a good way to start till you can average you monthly hours vs your cost to work. SO what I was saying is this is a good base to start off with then as you get accustomed to what you bring in and send out. I started at 45 and raised to 55 as I adjusted to my over head. And when I have to hire more employees and pay all cost that go with it I will have to raise my prices again but still be competitive. The more hours per month the more profit. And if I have more work than I desire I can raise my prices to shave off some cheaper customers and make a higher profit also. I think there are more variables than just overhead alone in choosing the price you charge.:thumbsup:


honestly, you are starting down the wrong path....i've been on the road all day and just checking in from my phone....when i get home to a proper keyboard i'll elaborate....


----------



## EricTheHandyman

sniper, understand that your overhead expense is there whether you are pulling wire or sitting at home typing with us. I just started out a year ago and didn't have a full grasp on the overhead concept. There are many expenses that you don't think about, but they are there. For my business (just me, no employees, plus a van full of inventory) it comes out to about $75 per day, and that's everyday, not just work days. I didn't start making money until I started including this in my bids. Good luck, I hope this helps.

Eric.

P.S. I have an apprentice electrician that I work with who charges $45 per hour, 20 years experience should get you more.


----------



## Tiger

Larger companies have more employees who are billing more hours. Their overhead per hour may be less than yours, and probably are. It's likely that you're losing money and don't know it. There's a very good sticky post at the top of the Business section...Pricing, Estimating & Success.

Dave


----------



## Magnettica

mahlere said:


> we use people like you as an example of what not to do....you really don't understand overhead.....ad you surely do not understand overhead per manhour.....how much money to you anticipate generating this year? how much OH $ will you spend? i always joked about pricing that way, just never thought anyone was silly enough to do it....


That is pretty funny. You do say that all the time on here.


----------



## rbsremodeling

I charge $145 per hour for electric work


----------



## mahlere

sniperelectech said:


> I charge 55 dollars an hour. Tell me how if i'm wrong but if I where to base my monthly overhead and calculate that in my per hour price it could flucuate alot based on how much work I get. Therefore the less work I get the more per hour I would have to charge. Of course the only constants per hour I would have are gas% labor per hour and a % for tools and vehicle repair. I think this is a good way to start till you can average you monthly hours vs your cost to work. SO what I was saying is this is a good base to start off with then as you get accustomed to what you bring in and send out. I started at 45 and raised to 55 as I adjusted to my over head. And when I have to hire more employees and pay all cost that go with it I will have to raise my prices again but still be competitive. The more hours per month the more profit. And if I have more work than I desire I can raise my prices to shave off some cheaper customers and make a higher profit also. I think there are more variables than just overhead alone in choosing the price you charge.:thumbsup:


ok...1st a couple of questions...

1) how many hours do you actually bill in an average day? - my guess is around 4-5

2) how can you budget for growth, if you haven't got a clue how much you are gonna make?

3) what makes you think the guys you called actually know how to price? maybe they got their pricing the same way you did?

4) where is the money gonna come from when you need to hire help and add trucks?

5) do you have any money in your budget for marketing and advertising? if not, how are you gonna sustain work when you hire people?

6) how will you justify a price increase to your customers because you hired a guy who isn't as efficient as you?

7) do you even know what it costs you to operate? or are you just living on whatever you can?

8) have you ever taken a class in business or accounting?

9) what in your background makes you think that you are remotely qualified to run a business?

10) i'm not picking on you, i'm asking questions that you should have asked yourself...now read these articles and tell me what you think you are not doing correctly....
(note:you may need to register, go ahead it's free...)

Pay close attention to the section about "Downward Creep"

This is a good one too

My initial impression is that you still have the "Paycheck Mentality"

The next 3 are a 3 part series...
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

after reading just these articles, let me know what you think...


----------



## Celtic

mahlere said:


> after reading just these articles, let me know what you think...


I think plumbers know something that we don't...and if we do know it, someone is keeping it a secret.


----------



## mahlere

nah, no secret...plumbers and hvac contactors are just smarter than electrical contractors...:laughing:

i've met very few plumbers and HVAC contractors who _don't_ know their numbers....i've met very few electrical contractors who _do_ know their numbers

i am really hoping that sniper posts his thoughts...


----------



## excellencee

I use this website a few times a year to make sure I'm on track.

http://costcalc.masterplumbers.com/utilities/costcalc/


----------



## cmec

Excellence ,great calculator I have done that calculation by hand for years:thumbsup: I think this boils down to what one of my gurus told me, electricians think this a prestegious trade because of the prequalifications theory and continual code changes etc ,plumbers arnt on a head trip instead of constant code changes they charge people for working in their shxt.


----------



## MALONE

*too high*



Badoish said:


> I've just started my business and need some help on how much to charge an hour for residential, commercial and light industrial electrical work in western PA, and Eastern OH. For twenty years experience I was thinking $46. Does that sound too high?


DON'T SELL YOUSELF SHORT !arty:
If you know what your doing and want to make a living at it, think what your cost of living is and how much money you need to support your life style. If your good and professional at what you do then your worth a lot more than $46 an hour. :thumbsup:


----------



## Forry

My EC charges $95/hr and I mark it up 20% =$114

If you're working directly for the client?


----------



## genexelectric

seems to me you all need to think about the area you are in. then look at the going rate. just call a coupla EC in the area and ask them how much they charge and see where you fit in. pretty simple. profit is a whole nother ball game are we markin up fer material how much?? does this amount work with your budget? another thought just look at your overhaed see what it takes realy takes to run day to day are you makin that per day??


----------



## genexelectric

goin rate around here is $105.00 just to get to the door


----------



## Celtic

Celtic said:


> I think plumbers know something that we don't...and if we do know it, someone is keeping it a secret.



Like I said...


excellencee said:


> I use this website a few times a year to make sure I'm on track.
> 
> http://costcalc.masterplumbers.com/utilities/costcalc/


It's a plumbing site.

Why do EC's not have something similar....because the plumber has done it for us?
That's just sad.


----------



## mahlere

genexelectric said:


> seems to me you all need to think about the area you are in. then look at the going rate. just call a coupla EC in the area and ask them how much they charge and see where you fit in. pretty simple. profit is a whole nother ball game are we markin up fer material how much?? does this amount work with your budget? another thought just look at your overhaed see what it takes realy takes to run day to day are you makin that per day??


you should read these articles as well...




mahlere said:


> ok...1st a couple of questions...
> 
> 1) how many hours do you actually bill in an average day? - my guess is around 4-5
> 
> 2) how can you budget for growth, if you haven't got a clue how much you are gonna make?
> 
> 3) what makes you think the guys you called actually know how to price? maybe they got their pricing the same way you did?
> 
> 4) where is the money gonna come from when you need to hire help and add trucks?
> 
> 5) do you have any money in your budget for marketing and advertising? if not, how are you gonna sustain work when you hire people?
> 
> 6) how will you justify a price increase to your customers because you hired a guy who isn't as efficient as you?
> 
> 7) do you even know what it costs you to operate? or are you just living on whatever you can?
> 
> 8) have you ever taken a class in business or accounting?
> 
> 9) what in your background makes you think that you are remotely qualified to run a business?
> 
> 10) i'm not picking on you, i'm asking questions that you should have asked yourself...now read these articles and tell me what you think you are not doing correctly....
> (note:you may need to register, go ahead it's free...)
> 
> Pay close attention to the section about "Downward Creep"
> 
> This is a good one too
> 
> My initial impression is that you still have the "Paycheck Mentality"
> 
> The next 3 are a 3 part series...
> Part 1
> Part 2
> Part 3
> 
> after reading just these articles, let me know what you think...


----------



## mahlere

Celtic said:


> Like I said...
> 
> 
> It's a plumbing site.
> 
> Why do EC's not have something similar....because the plumber has done it for us?
> That's just sad.


I told you they were just smarter...


----------



## Celtic

mahlere said:


> I told you they were just smarter...


Must have something to do with having your head in a toilet for half the day :laughing:

That is sad, though.
The turd herders have a clue...more than a clue....WTF? I thought sparkys were supposed to be the upper echelon's of the trades.


I'm quitting.


----------



## mahlere

Celtic said:


> Must have something to do with having your head in a toilet for half the day :laughing:
> 
> That is sad, though.
> The turd herders have a clue...more than a clue....WTF? I thought sparkys were supposed to be the upper echelon's of the trades.
> 
> 
> I'm quitting.


yeah, me too.....


(psst, hey celt....do _you_ have any idea how to do plumbing?:blink


----------



## Celtic

mahlere said:


> yeah, me too.....
> 
> 
> (psst, hey celt....do _you_ have any idea how to do plumbing?:blink


I know how to sweat joints and know enough not to huff the PVC glue:thumbup:.


----------



## orson

sniperelectech said:


> This may sound a little sneaky but.... I called a couple of the main electrical contractors in 2 cities in my area and asked how much they charged an hour. Then i just under cut some and made sure I wasn't the cheapest. I figured the big boys had more overhead and had to charge more and the cheapest guys made no money and too much work. So the cheap guys are too busy to get to people and they check prices and your cheaper than others so you get the job and make a referance. Make sure you make enough to put back into your company to upgrade and build it up. Or you will be stuck with one van and no help like the cheap guy.


Assuming that the big guy has more overhead is an extremely dangerous assumption, the big guy also has a much higher sales volume to cover his fixed overhead, therefore, his fixed overhead may actually be a much smaller percentage of sales than yours. You need to figure out YOUR overhead and stop guessing how much to charge. If you figure it out and your rate is too high then figure out how to trim your overhead.

www.rubycon.us
Ruby Construction LLC 
Lancaster Kitchen Remodeling
Lancaster Bathroom Remodeling


----------



## mahlere

orson said:


> Assuming that the big guy has more overhead is an extremely dangerous assumption, the big guy also has a much higher sales volume to cover his fixed overhead, therefore, his fixed overhead may actually be a much smaller percentage of sales than yours. You need to figure out YOUR overhead and stop guessing how much to charge. If you figure it out and your rate is too high then figure out how to trim your overhead.


so in other words, the Overhead per Man Hour might be smaller for the large guy?:whistling


----------



## randomkiller

mahlere said:


> I told you they were just smarter...


 
I would much rather handle romex than a sewer snake anyday.


----------



## randomkiller

Our rate prior to being engulfed by a larger company was $107.50 an hour now our billing non-contract rate is $120.00 straight time, you get a discount if you have a maint. contract.


----------



## macmikeman

I would rather just call up a couple of local contractors and find out what they charge and then just go right under them. Bothering with all that heady stuff like figuring out your real overhead just takes too much time. It would be time better spent studying codes and memorizing wiring diagrams and such, so that I could impress my customers with how much I know about the trade. The reason my customers keep calling me is not cause I am so dirt cheap, I'm quite sure it is because "I know so much about electrical". Why, even yesterday, I threw in a free FPE panel replacement for a customer, cause since I am an electrician who knows more than everybody else around here about his trade, I know how benifical to the customer that panel swap was. I'd love to tell you guys some more of my business secrets, but I have to hurry up now and go fix a flat tire on my rusty old van before the landlord shows up for the overdue rent.


----------



## cmec

macmikeman said:


> I would rather just call up a couple of local contractors and find out what they charge and then just go right under them. Bothering with all that heady stuff like figuring out your real overhead just takes too much time. It would be time better spent studying codes and memorizing wiring diagrams and such, so that I could impress my customers with how much I know about the trade. The reason my customers keep calling me is not cause I am so dirt cheap, I'm quite sure it is because "I know so much about electrical". Why, even yesterday, I threw in a free FPE panel replacement for a customer, cause since I am an electrician who knows more than everybody else around here about his trade, I know how benifical to the customer that panel swap was. I'd love to tell you guys some more of my business secrets, but I have to hurry up now and go fix a flat tire on my rusty old van before the landlord shows up for the overdue rent.


 
thats the mindset my guru was talking about:no:


----------



## Celtic

I think we should eliminate the whole "How much should I charge?" fiasco and pay the customer for the privilege of working in their homes.


----------



## jbfan

Celtic said:


> I think we should eliminate the whole "How much should I charge?" fiasco and pay the customer for the privilege of working in their homes.


How much would you pay to install 3 can lights??:jester:


----------



## sniperelectech

I understand the overhead concept. I'm all about number crunching. Like I said I started at 45 and adjusted to 55. But cause of the guys running around here charging 35 and 45 per hour and doing more business cause of it, I only get first time customers who need work done now and not 2 weeks later. They will pay my higher cost so they can get it fixed now. I understand the percentages of the more people and service calls vs. overhead. I'm sure there is a hump you make it over when the percentage of overhead per service call reduces. I think it is in ratio to the number of crews and vans you have vs office staff/insurance/workmans comp and so on. I don't deny the calculations. I was just stating what I said to get your foot in the doors and first time calls. After about six months your should know exactly how much it cost per day and per hour to do business. *and make money*. I do find myself keeping my overhead down to stay within my budget. So why is competing with other electrical companies not a factor? When I started on my own I had to build and I am still building my clientel. And the I got in the door with people because I was available and resonable priced. And with every customer I get great referances. I'm not here to argue but to learn.


----------



## Celtic

jbfan said:


> How much would you pay to install 3 can lights??:jester:



We can discuss it after I install them....while I pay the tab for lunch - fair enough?


----------



## macmikeman

Call us back in 6 months and let us all know how its working out for you. Good luck


----------



## macmikeman

Just for fun and games, I ran some numbers backward thru the hourly rate calculator that Glenn at Express Quote came up with a few years ago, for those of you who remember him. With an annual overhead of $30,000 which is about what our young padawan is about to discover he actually has by the end of his 6 months of learning the ropes, and doing service work with approx 4 hours a day billable, by charging $55 an hour, he will earn $2.25 an hour. Not bad for a starter. Remember now as he stated some of his competors are only at $45/hour. So offhand without running the numbers, I would guess he beats them losers by at least .35cents an hour.


----------



## mahlere

sniperelectech said:


> I understand the overhead concept. I'm all about number crunching. Like I said I started at 45 and adjusted to 55. But cause of the guys running around here charging 35 and 45 per hour and doing more business cause of it, I only get first time customers who need work done now and not 2 weeks later. They will pay my higher cost so they can get it fixed now. I understand the percentages of the more people and service calls vs. overhead. I'm sure there is a hump you make it over when the percentage of overhead per service call reduces. I think it is in ratio to the number of crews and vans you have vs office staff/insurance/workmans comp and so on. I don't deny the calculations. I was just stating what I said to get your foot in the doors and first time calls. After about six months your should know exactly how much it cost per day and per hour to do business. *and make money*. I do find myself keeping my overhead down to stay within my budget. So why is competing with other electrical companies not a factor? When I started on my own I had to build and I am still building my clientel. And the I got in the door with people because I was available and resonable priced. And with every customer I get great referances. I'm not here to argue but to learn.


at $55/hr, you have customers...you don't get "clientele" until you are billing over $100/hr :laughing:

you are falling into the trap of many contractors...you are letting your business dictate your life...if you want to live that way, fine...but go get a job. you'll be living the same, just with less headaches...


----------



## mahlere

macmikeman said:


> Just for fun and games, I ran some numbers backward thru the hourly rate calculator that Glenn at Express Quote came up with a few years ago, for those of you who remember him. With an annual overhead of $30,000 which is about what our young padawan is about to discover he actually has by the end of his 6 months of learning the ropes, and doing service work with approx 4 hours a day billable, by charging $55 an hour, he will earn $2.25 an hour. Not bad for a starter. Remember now as he stated some of his competors are only at $45/hour. So offhand without running the numbers, I would guess he beats them losers by at least .35cents an hour.


heck, got me beat by $1.00/hr


----------



## mahlere

jbfan said:


> How much would you pay to install 3 can lights??:jester:





Celtic said:


> We can discuss it after I install them....while I pay the tab for lunch - fair enough?


i'll offer $10/lt...that's a great price


----------



## macmikeman

mahlere said:


> i'll offer $10/lt...that's a great price


Yeah, but how much will you pay per square foot for you to install them?


----------



## macmikeman

mahlere said:


> at $55/hr, you have customers...you don't get "clientele" until you are billing over $100/hr :laughing:


Goes directly into my book of alltime favorite great Mahlere posts.


----------



## mahlere

macmikeman said:


> Goes directly into my book of alltime favorite great Mahlere posts.


let me know when we have enough to publish them:laughing:


----------



## sniperelectech

What state and city are you charging over $100 dollars an hour?


----------



## sniperelectech

macmikeman said:


> Just for fun and games, I ran some numbers backward thru the hourly rate calculator that Glenn at Express Quote came up with a few years ago, for those of you who remember him. With an annual overhead of $30,000 which is about what our young padawan is about to discover he actually has by the end of his 6 months of learning the ropes, and doing service work with approx 4 hours a day billable, by charging $55 an hour, he will earn $2.25 an hour. Not bad for a starter. Remember now as he stated some of his competors are only at $45/hour. So offhand without running the numbers, I would guess he beats them losers by at least .35cents an hour.


Where can I get this calculator or formula to calculate my own? Or an link.


----------



## sniperelectech

I'm not here to argue but learn and share idea's. I would be happy to charge 100 bucks an hour. But I only think I would be able too is that everyone or mostly everyone did. If I increased my advertising overhead I would be able to increase my hourly rate and still maintain or increase my *customers* ?


----------



## Celtic

sniperelectech said:


> What state and city are you charging over $100 dollars an hour?


See #*41*
It is not unheard of anywhere in NJ :whistling


sniperelectech said:


> Where can I get this calculator or formula to calculate my own? Or an link.


Read #*36* & #*42*



sniperelectech said:


> I'm not here to argue but learn and share idea's. I would be happy to charge 100 bucks an hour. But I only think I would be able too is that everyone or mostly everyone did. If I increased my advertising overhead I would be able to increase my hourly rate and still maintain or increase my *customers* ?


Someone has to first to break the $100/hr barrier....why not you?

If everyone is overly concerned with "what the other guy is charging" you rates will forever remain stagnant. There will also be some new hot shot who is going to corner the market charging $25/hr and reap the benefits due to volume.


----------



## sniperelectech

Well I'm considering all of your input. The thing is I feel I would have to increase my overhead substancally by advertising to keep busy at such high rates. And in the past I feel I have wasted money in anything other than the business card size ad in the yellowpages.


----------



## mahlere

sniperelectech said:


> Well I'm considering all of your input. The thing is I feel I would have to increase my overhead substancally by advertising to keep busy at such high rates. And in the past I feel I have wasted money in anything other than the business card size ad in the yellowpages.


there is definitely truth to this...it does require more calls in order to make a higher rate...

however, i wouldn't attempt to bill residential via T&M at $100/hr...

do a search to find out if there are any Nexstar, ESI/PSI/Clockwork Home Service, Mr. Sparky, Mr. Electric, etc companies in your area...they are all well over $100/billable hour (but they are all also flat rate companies)


----------



## sniperelectech

ya I don't know any HO's who would T&M me for 100 bucks. 55 scares them enough especially when the call and say "my lights quit working in living room, how much would it cost to fix". I have no freakin idea what it is. It could be that the breaker tripped to (like in commercial) the neighbor opened the garage door. So I say about 2 hours and 55 but it could take longer not knowing what problem is. I say 2 because that is on average what it takes.


----------



## JohnJ0906

mahlere said:


> at $55/hr, you have customers...you don't get "clientele" until you are billing over $100/hr :laughing:.


We're close, I guess - $90/hr.


----------



## mahlere

JohnJ0906 said:


> We're close, I guess - $90/hr.


i've seen your picture...you have victims:laughing:


----------



## JohnJ0906

My helper and I resent that greatly.. 











:whistling


----------



## mdcorreia

mahlere said:


> nah, no secret...plumbers and hvac contactors are just smarter than electrical contractors...:laughing:
> 
> i've met very few plumbers and HVAC contractors who _don't_ know their numbers....i've met very few electrical contractors who _do_ know their numbers
> 
> i am really hoping that sniper posts his thoughts...


I think also think if one charges min. wages ($14 hr - give me a break!) then that person is a very poor worker - does not value his work or is supper dumm or something? Around here, Macdonald's workers get $15/hr in some areas!
When I suggested, a few posts ago to charge DOUBLE the JM rate I was assuming that y'all are are paying the electrician worker at least 25 to 33 or so gross on his paycheque.
I agree - A lot of Self Employed Electricians are much dummier than the plumbers etc.
My contract prices are based on $80/hr - but I NEVER tell the customer that I ever work by the hour! Only by the job - take it or leave it!
However - to all of you - keep up your posts - we only learn more from each other.


----------



## sniperelectech

Well I crunched my numbers and my overhead was 23 dollars an hour on a 40 hour work week. Which is a little less than 50% of my hourly service call rate. But one thing is for sure that I will raise my per man hour price when I bid commercial jobs. Once I get a helper I will have to raise my hourly service call price. I just can't let my overhead tell me what to do but do my best to keep it down and balanced. Thanks fellas even though I didn't start the thread.:thumbup:


----------



## excellencee

Sniper, you based your overhead on a 40 hour work week. How common is that for you. As I sit here typing, my accountant just left, I'm getting ready to bid 2 jobs, and my guy called off to care for a sick wife. No billable hours today. This time of year the weather plays a role here. All my GC's are behind due to weather issues. It's going to hit the fan in a few weeks, but until then the bills still need paid.


----------



## macmikeman

Heck, I live in Hawaii where the weather is pretty much always nice and doesn't play a factor in work, and I cannot get anywhere near to 40 hours billable a week in when doing service call work. Sniper, if you are doing strict new construction, are you really only working 8 hours a day at it, or are you actually getting up 3 hours earlier to go fetch materials, work out your bids, meet inspectors for the last job final, pickup the permits, fill the gas tank, Blah blah blah blah, you get my point? My day goes into 10 plus hours easy when I do new work. Another reason to make sure the rates you build into bids are high enough to cover the real overhead hours spent doing all the offsite things that must be done, unless one likes to volunteer their time doing all those tasks for free. Big point here is to know exactly how much it costs you per hour to be in business, know how to apply that figure for each and every type of job you do, and above it all, take the desired end result for the year number and learn how to filter it backwards to get the proper hourly charge.


----------



## macmikeman

How about a link to a simplified hourly cost breakeven calculator for all those who either don't really know what it costs them to be in business, or for those who are thinking about making the plunge.http://freelanceswitch.com/rates/

And don't ever say you never got any mac help from me..


----------



## MALCO.New.York

One can NEVER charge too much if someone is willing to pay. But too little hurts for MONTHS to come. No one EVER said you have to be fair, but DO NOT be greedy. It will plague your conscience.


----------



## woodchuck2

I charge $45 per hour for some jobs. New construction is $45 per box, old construction is $55 per box or by the hour depending on the job. One exception to the new construction is log homes and then it is by the hour for exterior walls. Some folks i will give a break too, example is the elderly who i know are on a fixed income.


----------



## ihms683

jusr be honest


----------



## ihms683

:furious:


mdshunk said:


> Sounds way too low, to me. I'm in south central PA, and my first hour is almost double that. Figure your real costs and go from there.


Iam surprized that you even made any statement . when i said about ;fly by nights are hurting contractors,You said that was (oh commpitition ) , afly by night does not have the over head,plus,we as honest contractors stand by our work plus we pay all taxes a fly by night works for 15 per hour then every body else exspects us to work for 15 per hour they here this or see this just like you see this THINK


----------



## ihms683

you have to set you rate with the area you live


----------



## woodchuck2

ihms683 said:


> :furious:
> Iam surprized that you even made any statement . when i said about ;fly by nights are hurting contractors,You said that was (oh commpitition ) , afly by night does not have the over head,plus,we as honest contractors stand by our work plus we pay all taxes a fly by night works for 15 per hour then every body else exspects us to work for 15 per hour they here this or see this just like you see this THINK


I used to work like this but it was always little jobs. After a while the jobs got larger and i needed more tools and i really started to worry about the liabilities. All the work was inspected and done right but i lacked the piece of mind that nothing would ever go wrong. I decided it was time to get insured and start the business properly. People can complain about the higher labor rate but when the job is done it has been done properly,inspected and it was insured from start to finish. What will they get from the "fly by night"? Damn dude, i didnt think your hose would catch fire, sorry about your bad luck!!


----------



## jrclen

If I'm going to fly at all anymore, it will have to be at night, cause I don't want to see the wing fall off. :laughing:

Your rate has to reflect your costs. But not everyone's costs are the same. License, insurance, tools, and a truck is going to be way different than, 10 licenses, 10 guys, workmen's comp, book keeping, 10 trucks, big insurance, social security, lots of lost tools, and so on.

Little planes can fly in the day time too.


----------



## ihms683

woodchuck2 said:


> I used to work like this but it was always little jobs. After a while the jobs got larger and i needed more tools and i really started to worry about the liabilities. All the work was inspected and done right but i lacked the piece of mind that nothing would ever go wrong. I decided it was time to get insured and start the business properly. People can complain about the higher labor rate but when the job is done it has been done properly,inspected and it was insured from start to finish. What will they get from the "fly by night"? Damn dude, i didnt think your hose would catch fire, sorry about your bad luck!!


thanks FOR BECOMING HONEST CONTRACTOR NOW fly by night kills familes that are contractors who do this for a living Ijust talked to a big contractor that turned 5 of his employes into the unemoyment because they were working under the table "as fly by nights" he said they were paid a good wage and his buisness slowed up these guys were charging less than he paid them so he said they will get whats coming to them that is not compitition fly by nights are raping contractors by the wage they charge and putting real hard ship on all contractors /////////////////////:furious:


----------



## asthetics

By calling other companies in the midwest 9 times out of 10 they don't tell you what they charge. We have a large number of fly by night or moonlighters here. One thing that these guys have going for them is the other night job they have as regular income , there for they can charge the 15 per hour and still live high on the hog. But they don't have insurance or work comp, they don't pull the permits and get their drinking buddies to help to pull off a week job in one weekend. I started my business while working nights , I hated it. Then when my wife said I could quit when I was matching the night job. I looked at costs ins, work comp, expenses, fuel ,tools , taxes, employees, and what I needed to have as an income to pay the bills at home. I have found out though that alot of the pricing is investigating what is really going on in the area. In 2006 State Farm was paying 164 per square to replace a roof. In 2007 after talking with a State Farm rep about a claim I was infomed that they were paying 287 per square an the same roof layout they were paying 164 on the year before. I'm not greedy, but I'm not stupid either ,I know that in one year my cost hadn't gone up that much. But I didn't refuse to accept it either, who know when the increase will only be 50 cents, or no increase at all.


----------



## GSE

woodchuck2 said:


> I charge $45 per hour for some jobs. Some folks i will give a break too, example is the elderly who i know are on a fixed income.


Are you aware that only a small percent of the elderly are in the poor bracket, they elderly hold the largest percent of the wealth, they do cry poverty hoping you will fall for their plea, the truly elderly in need will never ask for help and they are usually the ones with no assets, no home owner ship, and most likely no food in the frig.

If you want to give breaks give the yeng gent starting out with a family a break, they need it more then anyone.

Funny story, we had a home in our area that had an elderly lady, who got all the different trades to do work on the house for free, or next to nothing, after a few years, she passed on, and the paper said, she was a multi millionare, her son told the neighbor they really fixed up the house for me, now I can get a good price when i sell.

PS I was one of those local contractors they worked there for free, never again, live and learn.


----------



## SIGN FABRICATOR

*How much to charge per hour*

I'm a contractor in California, I carry the c-45 not the c-10 and I charge $95 an hour.


----------



## Magnettica

> How much to charge per hour??


More.


----------



## Thomp

$2 an hour, my GC says that's too much, Do you think it's too much?


----------



## dSilanskas

In Massachusetts we are charging $135/hr and that is middle of the road. You have to think about gas/insurance/tools that all cost money. But its always best to ask around where you live to see what the going rate is


----------



## mahlere

dSilanskas said:


> In Massachusetts we are charging $135/hr and that is middle of the road. You have to think about gas/insurance/tools that all cost money. But its always best to ask around where you live to see what the going rate is


if i'm not mistaken, that's for 2 men in a truck....it's also why you can't get a raise...:whistling


----------



## dSilanskas

Depends some companys its two men some is for just one but all depends and has nothing to do with getting a raise :whistling


----------



## skidmeister

Hey guys it's my first trip on here and this column was one of my first reads. I live in what must be the land of the most hackers and fly-by-nighters in the country, south central Pennsylvania. Now forgive me as I don't do commercial, or know any commercial businesses or what they charge, I know residential-mostly new residential. Myself (self-employed owner) and ALL the other residential wiring companies around the area are charging anywhere from 30-40 dollars a box or from $35-45 dollars per hour. How in the world can the amounts for the same work here when compared with where all of you guys live be so different here compared with all the numbers I have read in this column? If I or any of my competitiors charged the $75-135 per hour I've read about on here we would get laughed right out of town. Understand that I live in a very rural area.....


----------



## cmec

skidmeister said:


> Hey guys it's my first trip on here and this column was one of my first reads. I live in what must be the land of the most hackers and fly-by-nighters in the country, south central Pennsylvania. Now forgive me as I don't do commercial, or know any commercial businesses or what they charge, I know residential-mostly new residential. Myself (self-employed owner) and ALL the other residential wiring companies around the area are charging anywhere from 30-40 dollars a box or from $35-45 dollars per hour. How in the world can the amounts for the same work here when compared with where all of you guys live be so different here compared with all the numbers I have read in this column? If I or any of my competitiors charged the $75-135 per hour I've read about on here we would get laughed right out of town. Understand that I live in a very rural area.....


In other states, They have licensing,levels of contracting limited , intermediate ,unlimited , insurance requirments ,bonding requirements, appreniceships and ratio of j men to apprentices etc. 

NOT in PA 


WE have lots of unfair unqualified competition and the work and prices reflect it.


----------



## Magnettica

> How much to charge per hour??



More.


----------



## mahlere

dSilanskas said:


> Depends some companys its two men some is for just one but all depends and has nothing to do with getting a raise :whistling


has everything to do with it...that's the company you work for, it's for you and your boss, and it isn't enough to cover all costs and pay you more...see the big picture, man...


----------



## dSilanskas

mahlere said:


> has everything to do with it...that's the company you work for, it's for you and your boss, and it isn't enough to cover all costs and pay you more...see the big picture, man...


 
Well it all depends on where you live but around here $135 is middle of the road and charging that is not keeping me from getting a raise haha. Look at the big picture friend skill and knowlege will get you more money in this trade:thumbsup:


----------



## mahlere

dSilanskas said:


> Well it all depends on where you live but around here $135 is middle of the road and charging that is not keeping me from getting a raise haha. Look at the big picture friend skill and knowlege will get you more money in this trade:thumbsup:


d, you've posted about this before...you passed your journeyman's license and no raise...you are skilled and you have the knowledge...i don't care if that price is in the middle of the road or the ditch...the point is, your boss is not charging enough to pay you more...it's not your fault, it just is...


----------



## dSilanskas

No he could of paid me more trust me on that he was making a good amount of money but its all good I am not working for him anymore.:thumbsup: And I do indeed stick to what I say knowlege and skill gets you more money in this trade. Think about it say you have two guys one just has his Jman license and the other guy has his jman's and also went to school for alternate power systems and has a cirtificate in that. Now which one would make more money? Now that is all I am saying. Knowing more gets you more money. Your move wanted to en employer


----------



## MSSI

S.E. PA.......I charge $106/hr for 1 man service+ $62/hr for 2nd man $80/box commercial $65/box resi. $120/box emt. $130/box old work resi. $78/ft ridgid/1/2" +$10 per-size.. Haz-loc is $98/foot 1/2 +$10 per size.........I have no problem getting work. I rarely, VERY rarley persue the work if the contact fusses over pricing.........HOWS THAT SOUND??


----------



## MSSI

pipe is price/stick not foot.......my bad........That would be nice though


----------

