# Why all the hate for cheapo and blows???



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> In the great state of Texas, you are to hire a master electrician, plumber or HVAC contractor to do those tasks. I give that knowledge for free all day, but it is a known fact. If they don't follow the laws im obliged to, they get what they get.


I doubt that 90% of the public knows that. The area of Texas I am from you damned the govt and their regulations and helped your neighbor. I am not so stingy with my advice to help push someone in the right direction. I am only on this earth once, so I would like to help as much as I can. But do so without giving away the entire cow.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I doubt that 90% of the public knows that. The area of Texas I am from you damned the govt and their regulations and helped your neighbor. I am not so stingy with my advice to help push someone in the right direction. I am only on this earth once, so I would like to help as much as I can. But do so without giving away the entire cow.


Im from rural Texas, :thumbsup: We hate laws and regs as much as stacking bales in 100+ heat. 

Folk have been bitching about this at the cafe since if became law 20 + years ago. It is a known fact if you know anything. 

I will still explain it all day for free. If they choose to hire a hack or hack it up themselves, is what it is. No sympathy.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm a walking billboard, so I can see it now, at a deposition "who told you how to wire this receptacle?" It was the guy in the MLW Construction shirt at HD.


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

I don't have a Lowes near me, but the Depot is only 4 miles away and I go there frequently. Their prices are good and they have a wide variety of things that I use, both at home and on the job. I don't go in there looking for building advice though.
The only bone I have to pick with them is their tolerance of 100+ border jumpers they allow to congregate in their parking lot, waiting for sellouts to pick them up.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

My HD doesn't have any border brothers out front. Don't know why, but it sure makes it nice to go into.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

ClaytonR said:


> On another thread there's a huge argument that involves much hatred for these big box stores. I'm not sure why the hate. if you're expecting different from these places, you're the idiot.
> 
> So, I ask again, why all the hate?



I think you answered your own question. :smartass:


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

I go to one of the boxes at least once a week. As stated, they are what they are. I do most of my business with the supply houses or local hardware store, but in a small town the boxes sometime have the greatest inventory.


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## Ohio painter (Dec 4, 2011)

I do go to Home Depot for the simple fact that I no longer have much choice. 
HD Paint is low quality, so I am not putting it on.
When our HD opened it forced 2 local lumber yards to close in a year or so. Now try finding a decent piece of lumber at HD.
Then if you do find it you have to stack it on a stupid rocking cart.

When WalMart came along 20 years ago it was all about "made in America" flags all over the store. Now look at it. I refuse to shop at WM and most other big box stores. Radio Shack is another great example of what these stores turn into over time. HD and Lowes will turn into the same thing once they force out their competition. 

With these stores offering "their" installation services or "certified contractor" or what ever else they call it, that it what they are doing. 
I have fixed a lot of c0ck ups behind HD "contractors".

In general I am making much more effort to Buy American, if HD and Lowes can offer it American made then that is a step in the right direction.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

All too often I get burned on something dumb, like going to the wrong store to pick up something basic. I have to remember which store carries what. For example, I have to remember which store is good for duct parts, or which store has a decent (or not picked-over and never refilled) door threshold section, or which store has a good stock of vanities, or which store carries those flappers for Kohler...., or which one store closes the contractor door too early, or which one has the semi that blocks the contractor parking when you're in a rush....or which one stocks the 4x8 3/4" cabinet ply, or which one offers culled 2x4's while the good ones are sitting up on the top rack....

Then I start mumbling to myself like a homeless guy....and then here comes (again!) the guy waving the flags for the forklift guy. After them, here comes the stone-faced lady with the teal floor zamboni, again! Then I turn around and some smiley woman is asking me if I heard about their Home Services offer (for like the 1,000 time).

The other day I arranged for 14 sheets of 4x12 drywall to be delivered - stupid me didn't realize my normal store didn't stock 4x12's, so I had to drive to another one. I arranged delivery at the pro desk on their "small truck" - a service they offer for pro's for $20 - even same day delivery, apparently. I ordered for next morning - no problem! I even talked to the pleasant driver, nice guy, and he also said "no problem"...he will leave store at 8:00 am. call me 30 min. prior, no sweat.......So guess what? By 2:00 pm next day NO DRYWALL. I couldn't call the store and get a live person....kept getting put on hold....endless...nobody knew how to follow the order...I drove there to get to the bottom of it, and they still didn't know. They pull up my 8:00 delivery on the computer and tell me "there you are, it should be there".


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> So many times I over hear an employee telling a customer the absolute wrong info. I think to myself does he even realize the liability he's facing if someone's home burns down? Only one time have I jumped in and that was when I heard a guy telling a customer to go ahead and pull an extension chord through EMT and wire a box to the end of it in a wall. Now maybe it wouldn't catch fire, or maybe it would, I'm no electrician, but I couldn't let him go home and do that with good conscience. Even if it was a DIY'er that probably had no business doing electrical.


I've actually gotten jobs because I shared knowledge when I seen the customer in over their head & getting bad advice.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

woodchuck2 said:


> Why??? Do you really think they look out for the contractor? I had accounts with both these big box stores and when the economy took a dump i had quite a time paying things off. Lowes i paid right off with no issue. Home Dopey i made large payments to knock down the balance but one late payment screwed me and they raised my interest to 29%. I paid and paid and paid with whatever i could afford and no gain on the balance. I made a settlement agreement with them paying $100 a month on the remaining $2k balance. After a yr of ignoring the invoices because i was making automated payments i decided to check my balance so i could just pay it off. My F'en balance had actually gone up!!! They claimed i was somehow behind on a payment and were charging me late fee's and interest fee's on top of that. The agreement was no interest and a set payment every month until settled. But Noooooo, their claiming i was late gave reason to rape me. So, i asked what i had to do next to settle this matter. They said to keep making the $100 a month payments as well as another $278 a month payment for 3 months to get caught up. This i did. After 3 months i checked my balance and it was still over $2k. I called back fuming to be told yes, that extra $278 a month was what it took to get me caught up and now i could keep paying the $100 a month to pay off my balance. Now, i had already paid over $2300 in 15 months time on a $2k balance and still owed over $2k. I told them to pound their business right up their A55! I e-mailed the company explaining who i was and my account problem. I warned them i had no problem going elsewhere for business and what they would loose would far exceed how much i owed and as far as i was concerned my debt with them was settled. They responded with an apology but would do nothing about the debt and the balance and they did not see the need for concern to my lack of business.
> 
> Now, during this time i deal with a small hardware store who i have a large account with and i owe a large amount of money too. I have sat with the owner and the manager to explain to them they will be paid in full but it will be a matter of time. What do they say? No problem, do what you can when you can. If you need anything let us know. No interest to worry about, i bend over backwards for them whenever they have a problem. I get invited to family events, company events, i am allowed to use equipment for free on occasion, i get huge breaks on prices and will order anything i need.
> 
> Rarely do i ever go to Lowes or Home Dopey. If i do it is on a weekend or at night when my other suppliers cannot get what i need or i can get a big savings on lumber instead of buying local. I also prefer to keep my business local. When i make a purchase i know who's family is being fed by that profit made.


I know how that goes. I had same issue with lowes. I pay the card completely of before each payment is due. Well for some reason I can't do online payments. They said there's an issue with my bank which won't allow it so I have to goto the store to pay it. No big deal seeings there's 4 within 15mins but the issue comes when the only checkout you can pay at is the customer service desk. Each and every time I go to pay its the only checkout open and has about 10 people checking out and on the back side if that desk there's the returns desk. Well there also always a line of people there to. There's only one person who runs this whole desk and she directs calls too so in sure everyone knows how this goes. Normally about a 30-40min wait each time to pay the card down. One time I said **** it as I was not wasting anymore time. Ended up with a late charge and interest being charge on the amount owed even though it only went over by 1 day. I blew my top but they wouldn't do anything. Said I had to call the card provider and they said basically tuff luck. 

You wouldn't believe the issues I have had with kitchens from them either. Let me keep this short. Every job wrong cabinets ordered, wrong handles ordered, not enough cabinets ordered, damaged cabinets and then customers being called liars even though I make sure I'm there and take note of everything they say and I get called a liar too, being charged delivery charges for stuff they forget to order. Items that are missing take about 3months on avg to turn up. Went just the other day to put the missing handles pulls and doors into a kitchen I finished up about 2 months ago. That customer was extremely pissed of but when I said try lowes as it was the only local place to them with kitchens I didn't know this store was vastly worse than my local stores. I felt bad and threw in some freebies but lowes wouldn't do nothing. 

I'm now at that point where if they mention lowes I tell them sorry I can't do the work using there products. It just cost me way too much time, money and headaches. The pro/contractor desks also have given the worst hack advice to "contractors" in this area too.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> I know how that goes. I had same issue with lowes. I pay the card completely of before each payment is due. Well for some reason I can't do online payments. They said there's an issue with my bank which won't allow it so I have to goto the store to pay it. No big deal seeings there's 4 within 15mins but the issue comes when the only checkout you can pay at is the customer service desk. Each and every time I go to pay its the only checkout open and has about 10 people checking out and on the back side if that desk there's the returns desk. Well there also always a line of people there to. There's only one person who runs this whole desk and she directs calls too so in sure everyone knows how this goes. Normally about a 30-40min wait each time to pay the card down. One time I said **** it as I was not wasting anymore time. Ended up with a late charge and interest being charge on the amount owed even though it only went over by 1 day. I blew my top but they wouldn't do anything. Said I had to call the card provider and they said basically tuff luck.
> 
> You wouldn't believe the issues I have had with kitchens from them either. Let me keep this short. Every job wrong cabinets ordered, wrong handles ordered, not enough cabinets ordered, damaged cabinets and then customers being called liars even though I make sure I'm there and take note of everything they say and I get called a liar too, being charged delivery charges for stuff they forget to order. Items that are missing take about 3months on avg to turn up. Went just the other day to put the missing handles pulls and doors into a kitchen I finished up about 2 months ago. That customer was extremely pissed of but when I said try lowes as it was the only local place to them with kitchens I didn't know this store was vastly worse than my local stores. I felt bad and threw in some freebies but lowes wouldn't do nothing.
> 
> I'm now at that point where if they mention lowes I tell them sorry I can't do the work using there products. It just cost me way too much time, money and headaches. The pro/contractor desks also have given the worst hack advice to "contractors" in this area too.


Why would you let your clients order the cabinets? And even if they did, why wouldn't you review there purchase order to ensure all cabinets were ordered. Seems to me that the PO is going to be the final word. Doesn't matter what he said it she said.

I have only ordered cabinets once from a big box. It was for me and it took twice as long as custom. After that, when a customer has provided cabinets, I have nothing to do with it and unless the cabinets are on site, I don't even schedule the job. I will go to the site and verify all cabinets, fillers and toe kicks are accounted for.

Customers quickly realize they would have been better off going custom through me. Faster, cheaper and less headache.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Why would you let your clients order the cabinets? And even if they did, why wouldn't you review there purchase order to ensure all cabinets were ordered. Seems to me that the PO is going to be the final word. Doesn't matter what he said it she said.
> 
> I have only ordered cabinets once from a big box. It was for me and it took twice as long as custom. After that, when a customer has provided cabinets, I have nothing to do with it and unless the cabinets are on site, I don't even schedule the job. I will go to the site and verify all cabinets, fillers and toe kicks are accounted for.
> 
> Customers quickly realize they would have been better off going custom through me. Faster, cheaper and less headache.


That one was one of the situations where I learned a lesson. As an example the handles amounts were correct but the sales person put the wrong code in for them which switched the type around. Looked like the amounts were correct but the item numbers were wrong. 

The other issue was the crown blocking. She said it comes with the crown on this style if kitchen. Started to install the crown and no blocking. Called her and she said its normally in the box. Get a call back 2 days later saying we didnt order it. She denied she said it was part of the crown kit. I also asked where the replacement doors were and what was happening with the handles being swap out. She said she knows nothing about the doors yet I spoke to her a week before this point and that the customers were gonna have to keep the handles they have as it was their mistake. I reminded her I was there and know how many if each they ordered and she said she was not wrong and we all were. Yes all 3 of us were wrong. 

This went in for weeks and they finally turned up.


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> You wouldn't believe the issues I have had with kitchens from them either.


I do believe it. What's hard to believe is that you act surprised about it. What did you expect?


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## Smithanator (Feb 18, 2013)

Sounds like someone's taking advantage of menards. TNT all you do is give people **** from what I have seen on every thread. You must have some serious confidence problems.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> My HD doesn't have any border brothers out front. Don't know why, but it sure makes it nice to go into.


Damn, yea.....the one thing that does chap my hide about my local HD. The most they were really able to do was ban them to the street. So first thing you see is the day labor crowd when pulling into the parking lot. Too many contractors even. that pick these guys up only perpetuates that problem  If it weren't for the amount of contractors using them, there wouldn't be so many out there......


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

Ohio painter said:


> I do go to Home Depot for the simple fact that I no longer have much choice.
> HD Paint is low quality, so I am not putting it on.
> When our HD opened it forced 2 local lumber yards to close in a year or so. Now try finding a decent piece of lumber at HD.
> Then if you do find it you have to stack it on a stupid rocking cart.
> ...


They didn't force those lumberyards to close if they were like the ones here. The local yards were open m-f 8:30 to 5, guess when most people do the jobs they need to do around their homes-evenings and weekends, oops store closed just put a sign in front-depot 12 miles that way. Local yards had attitude problem with DIYers then biatches because they went somewhere else. The most expensive place to buy lumber is the box store and it's really not good lumber but yet they sell tons of it wonder why? I have a local plumbing supplier that puts on his merchandise a sign that says this is the price at the box store, this is my price and he is doing a really good business. And a lot of you are really lucky to have perfect lumberyards and specialty stores that have perfect employees that has never given 1 bit of bad advice to anyone.
And let's blame WalMart let's not blame our govt. the EPA, OSHA, and the other numerous agencies that are passing like 500 new laws and regulations a day and forcing our companies to close and go somewhere else. What store do you shop at that doesn't sell the same crap?
I absolutely shop local when I can but I think it's hypocritical to put all the blame on the stores when they give thousands of people jobs. And a lot of times makes my life easier, instead of spending half a day running all over town to pick up stuff I get it in one stop.
I paint quite a bit I don't like box store paint I usually deal with Sherwin Williams one day I asked them since you people own Purdy brushes why can I buy one cheaper at the box store than at your store. Now they are a little (very little) bit cheaper at my SW.
All i'm saying is let's put the blame where it belongs. Let's create an environment that is business friendly and encourages manufacturing to come back to this country. 
RANT OVER fire away.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

A long while back on a late Saturday afternoon I was loading drywall for a basement job at home. A guy walks up in the parking lot and and asked me if I wanted help (that was the gist of it, anyway). I never did before, but was wiped out, wanted it done, etc. I look at the guy for a moment and said "Follow me." So a couple guys jump in his car and off we go.

They hung about 10 sheets ("ok", I thought at the time) So it was a short day, but they wanted to come back Sunday morning. What time? 7:00am. 7 am on a sunday? You sure? Yes, 7:00. So I get up at 6, etc., nobody comes. I never got the guy's number. Whatever. But on Monday morning, the guy shows up with a new guy who happens to have only one-arm. No kidding. I was about to them to hit the road, but was stunned by the one-armed guy. I'm thinking this is some kind of candid camera episode. I say "What's this about?" He says that he's his brother, don't worry, he helps, etc. . I figure I have to see this. So imagine a one-armed guy mixing mud. I left for a short while and came back to find slop all over the place. 

A couple month's later a contractor needed some drywall guys fast. I owed him one, so I gave him their number. :laughing: BTW, I later learned the one-armed guy got it "removed" when he got caught cheating with another man's girlfriend.


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## Doctor Handyman (Mar 13, 2012)

Your starting to resemble that davinci guy.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Smithanator said:


> Sounds like someone's taking advantage of menards. TNT all you do is give people **** from what I have seen on every thread. You must have some serious confidence problems.


Is this like when you get into prison you have to try and fight a big fish?

I would suggest do a little more reading. While I may have a few run ins, the vast majority of my posts are neutral. 

And you cannot take advantage of someone who gives it to you. 

1) go to the contractors desk and sign up for the year end rebates. They want you to. 

2) shop there during their 11% sale. 

3) when it starts, go to the service counter and ask for an 11% adjustment rebate. The only way I knew about it was because my contractor rep told me about it. 

I am not taking advantage of anything but what they are offering.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> I have worked in a few houses where lowes had there best installer putting in kitchens. I couldn't believe what I was seeing him do. Here's a quick run down. He decides my brand new hickory floor I installed is the perfect place to drop all his tools and setup with no floor protection, uses a ball peen hammer to make holes through cabinets for pipes, starts cutting holes in the floor I just installed for vents which are in the wrong place, plumbs the island and wires the electrical yet pulled no permits for either, knocks panels into place with his 20oz hammer, cuts scribes with a mini cordless chain saw then covers the cuts with color matched trim, used 2 drywall screws to secure the cabinets to the wall yet he tried at least 5x per screw to find the stud so cabinets had loads of screw holes in them. Most screws still missed studs I will stop there as I could go on for ours so you get the idea.


That's why we work, steady, and for real coin.

Mediocrity and downright hackataciousness keeps me feeling oh so comfortable. 

Like Loa Tzu taught, there is no good, without the bad casting a light to reveal it's true nature.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

jlsconstruction said:


> 2 years ago I took down cabinets that hd installed. And hung them correctly, atleast the ho had enough knowledge to stop them half way through.
> 
> It's a million times easier to just find the studs beforehand and measure and mark the cabs before you pick them up.
> 
> That's back to the work smarter thing though. So I guess you have to have brains for that


That's what any normal person does. I ended up giving him some proper cabinet screws and his response was yeah I need to get some more of these lol. The next house he was on I was in he was still using drywall screws.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Why All The Hate For Cheapo And Blows??? 

They do a lot of kitchens here. I just did a demo for a customer, HD wanted 2000.00. I did it for 900.00 and made 650.00 in less than one day. HD did the kitchen, I could care less to see how it turned out.Just wished I knew their price before I did the demo.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Can you prove that?


I just sent you a pic of my...nevermind, you'll get understand.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> Nope. I can beat their prices all day long, _while buying materials from them_, and still make a good buck.
> 
> You might just as well say the guy with a stepladder on top of his SUV is my direct competitor. :no:


My thoughts exactly!!!


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Shellbuilder said:


> I could care less


You could? How so? :laughing:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> My thoughts exactly!!!


Stop that, you're scaring me.


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

Just from the sound of it you should love these companies, from what I'm reading you are making money just following along behind them. But in the same vein I have made a lot of money following crappy contractors that had nothing to do with the box stores.


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## Flag ship (Nov 21, 2008)

woodchuck2 said:


> Why??? Do you really think they look out for the contractor? I had accounts with both these big box stores and when the economy took a dump i had quite a time paying things off. Lowes i paid right off with no issue. Home Dopey i made large payments to knock down the balance but one late payment screwed me and they raised my interest to 29%. I paid and paid and paid with whatever i could afford and no gain on the balance. I made a settlement agreement with them paying $100 a month on the remaining $2k balance. After a yr of ignoring the invoices because i was making automated payments i decided to check my balance so i could just pay it off. My F'en balance had actually gone up!!! They claimed i was somehow behind on a payment and were charging me late fee's and interest fee's on top of that. The agreement was no interest and a set payment every month until settled. But Noooooo, their claiming i was late gave reason to rape me. So, i asked what i had to do next to settle this matter. They said to keep making the $100 a month payments as well as another $278 a month payment for 3 months to get caught up. This i did. After 3 months i checked my balance and it was still over $2k. I called back fuming to be told yes, that extra $278 a month was what it took to get me caught up and now i could keep paying the $100 a month to pay off my balance. Now, i had already paid over $2300 in 15 months time on a $2k balance and still owed over $2k. I told them to pound their business right up their A55! I e-mailed the company explaining who i was and my account problem. I warned them i had no problem going elsewhere for business and what they would loose would far exceed how much i owed and as far as i was concerned my debt with them was settled. They responded with an apology but would do nothing about the debt and the balance and they did not see the need for concern to my lack of business.
> 
> Now, during this time i deal with a small hardware store who i have a large account with and i owe a large amount of money too. I have sat with the owner and the manager to explain to them they will be paid in full but it will be a matter of time. What do they say? No problem, do what you can when you can. If you need anything let us know. No interest to worry about, i bend over backwards for them whenever they have a problem. I get invited to family events, company events, i am allowed to use equipment for free on occasion, i get huge breaks on prices and will order anything i need.
> 
> Rarely do i ever go to Lowes or Home Dopey. If i do it is on a weekend or at night when my other suppliers cannot get what i need or i can get a big savings on lumber instead of buying local. I also prefer to keep my business local. When i make a purchase i know who's family is being fed by that profit made.





You didn't have to pay them. They are backed by citybank. By Fed law they can only hold so muck in unsecured debit. Ie bank cards like you have or had. What most dont know is that in order for them to keep the cycle going they sell the note. This sale happens in the first 30 day or prior to the statment hitting your eye's. They must by law make you in writing aware of the sale. They never do thus the note is null. They cant even harm your credit if you dont pay. Infact you can sue them for 2300 dollar per collection attempt. Hope you dont ever find your self in that spot again but talk with lawyer first before you make a deal. Your deal was with the debit buyer not the bank. Even though the rep as the bank to you. 

Now on to the topic I recall both ways before the big store and now.
They dont belong in the home improvment end. When they start being you direct comp and cutting into you market it's time to take you money to other places.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am hard waiting for pick up.
> Because I don't have to be conscience with you.


Not nice to quote pieces of a conversation.


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## mski (Apr 4, 2013)

I go to HD quite often seeing its 1/2 mile from my house. Like the OP said its go for a couple of theses, a few of those, etc.
If I need to by bulk it's better for me to order from the lumber yard or supply house. Better quality control.

One thing to be aware of is you buy something and it comes in a small package make sure all the parts/pieces are there. I've seen product where someone steals parts and pieces. 
Or returned items that is back on the shelves after someone buys the product for a part they need then return the product and its restocked with missing parts.
So basically ALWAYS check the boxes or packages to see if they were opened and all the parts are there prior to purchase.
I've been burned a few times because I was in a damn hurry and didn't check the product only to find when I got back to the job parts were missing.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

mski said:


> I go to HD quite often seeing its 1/2 mile from my house. Like the OP said its go for a couple of theses, a few of those, etc.
> If I need to by bulk it's better for me to order from the lumber yard or supply house. Better quality control.
> 
> One thing to be aware of is you buy something and it comes in a small package make sure all the parts/pieces are there. I've seen product where someone steals parts and pieces.
> ...


I have bought the same stuff I returned days later after I told them it was faulty yet they put them back on display. I now check everything as like you I have been burned a few times and had to drive back to the store. 

The other thing that pisses me if is when an item it faulty I can't return it to a closer store. I gsve to go back to the store I purchased it from. This really pisses me off something bad. What difference does it make what store I take it back to!


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I just sent you a pic of my...nevermind


:blink:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> *I have bought the same stuff I returned* days later after I told them it was faulty yet they put them back on display. I now check everything as like you I have been burned a few times and had to drive back to the store.
> 
> The other thing that pisses me if is when an item it faulty I can't return it to a closer store. I gsve to go back to the store I purchased it from. This really pisses me off something bad. What difference does it make what store I take it back to!


Man, you need to relocate. OTOH, why did you buy something you already returned as being defective? :laughing:


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## williampierce (Jan 27, 2013)

pinwheel said:


> I've actually gotten jobs because I shared knowledge when I seen the customer in over their head & getting bad advice.


Amen


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Man, you need to relocate. OTOH, why did you buy something you already returned as being defective? :laughing:


The last thing was a home theater wall plate joby with a few parts in the box. went in there the next week as they had none left and shelf was full and grabbed one without checking what was inside it and got to the job and as i emptied the stuff out i then noticed i bought the same one again. 

The one before that was a set of fatmax saw horses. returned them as they had a couple of the clips broken and didnt notcie until i was about to open them up. I went and grabbed some bits and pieces then on the way out i grabbed another set of horses and got to the job and notcied they were the ones i just returned. SOB's put everything thats faulty back out on display hoping someone with buy it and make do. 

Since then i see them all the time putting stuff back on the shelf that shouldnt be. 

I double check everything now and open the boxes or packs up to be sure. had one manager tell me if i do that i have to buy it. Just ignored him and kept tearing into packs trying to find some that were complete.

I was doing a 10k sqft office build not silly long ago. I rejected a truck load of material so they come back and got it to swap it out. i marked the ends with UV marker as i knew better than to trust they wouldnt sneak me the stuff back i just gave me. 5hrs later they return and the driver said he hand piced this from 3 different stores him self. got me black light out and light the ends up and everysingle one he returned was the ones i rejected. They just put straps round them to pull them flat on pallets. I flipped out and told that driver not to show his face on my sites again. The warehouse manager ended up having to bring them down in multiple drops hanging out the back of his half ton.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I once bought a glass shower door got it out of the box and there was mold on it. Someone put a used door back in the box and returned it. It was phucking nasty.

I was in a hurry and didn't check it before I left the store. Hell, it was taped up nice and everything.


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

Each model has its place. 
If you want to be looked down upon for asking a question outside of your realm of expertise, then the lumber yard is for you. However, if you want solid advice on something and they sense that you're a pro, the lumber yard can give you good advice.
If you want to pay less, home depot may be for you. 
If you want to load things three times (onto the cart, onto the truck, onto the job site), home depot is for you. OSH loads bagged concrete for you, but their lumber selection sucks.
If you want something past 430p, home depot is for you.

My local home depot is the worst I've ever been to. Never have carts nearby, the staff is littered with high school dropouts, etc. The lumberyard is better, but they don't have the same selection of hardware, etc. For one stop shopping, I still go to home depot. Because of my trade, that's (unfortunately) the kind of shopping I do quite a bit of.


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## SCKitchens (Sep 14, 2013)

My problem is that they have such a large marketing budget to brand themselves as cheap, but the truth is, I can find many if their products for less money by going local. Of course they have the "loss leaders" that "confirm" their cheap status. 

I'd prefer 10 2x4's from a local lumberyard that are straight versus the 2x bananas they offer at the big box stores.

And as a professional kitchen showroom I find it funny how the cheapo depot changes the names of their granite so consumers can't price shop, and they also charge money for a designer to go to your home. How's that consumer friendly? They have absolutely no problem selling a new kitchen based on a homeowner's measurements without ever going to the house to verify. Very risky for the DIY people!


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

I have taken back back stuff I bought in another state bought a couple tools in Ohio when visiting grandkids. Opened one when I got back to Florida and it was broken took it back to my local store they took it back and never said a word.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> If I were tiling directly to the backer sure, that's nearly a 2" floor without tile? Way too high IMO.
> 
> At that point waterproof the subfloor and tile to that. The cement board adds no real strength to the floor and with redguard or AD you don't anything more.


I guess im looking at this wrong. The only way I saw it is that he removed sub flooring and put new down. Otherwise, I see the guys ramp comment....


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

Jaws said:


> That would be my concern, but I cant see the floor so who knows what he is dealing with. I have never tried tile to just straight plywood, always durarock with thinset beneath. Anyone have issues going over just plywood? Almost all monolithic slabs down here.


Some of the old timers would notch the 2x12 floor joists to accommodate sheeting boards and a traditional mud set floor. The mudset could be 1 1/2 thick. After demo you need to build that backup. I did a floor last year that took 2 layers of 3/4 and a layer of 1/4 cement board. After tile it was level to the original wood floor.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

country_huck said:


> Some of the old timers would notch the 2x12 floor joists to accommodate sheeting boards and a traditional mud set floor. The mudset could be 1 1/2 thick. After demo you need to build that backup. I did a floor last year that took 2 layers of 3/4 and a layer of 1/4 cement board. After tile it was level to the original wood floor.


Thats what I was seeing.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> I guess im looking at this wrong. The only way I saw it is that he removed sub flooring and put new down. Otherwise, I see the guys ramp comment....


It said he removed down to the subfloor. I took it he removed everything but the subfloor and the added on that.

Then we are saying the same thing. Build up to where the finished floor is close to level with existing floor. 

And yes you can adhere directly to the subfloor. Matt and Angus turned me on to Aqua Defensing the subfloor first a few months back. Matt had some good pics of a job. Maybe he can repost.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Ill dig them up. Its the way to go with most of these tract homes built with already undersized joists. No strength gained from cement board.

Getting ready to do another one in a few weeks..


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It said he removed down to the subfloor. I took it he removed everything but the subfloor and the added on that.
> 
> Then we are saying the same thing. Build up to where the finished floor is close to level with existing floor.
> 
> And yes you can adhere directly to the subfloor. Matt and Angus turned me on to Aqua Defensing the subfloor first a few months back. Matt had some good pics of a job. Maybe he can repost.


No issues with the longevity of the floor? I like thinset under the durarock to provide a cushion between the sub floor and fix any voids. I would be concerned about movement and cracks. 

But thats why I asked, no tile officianado here.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Ill dig them up. Its the way to go with most of these tract homes built with already undersized joists. No strength gained from cement board.
> 
> Getting ready to do another one in a few weeks..


 I see what your saying.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> No issues with the longevity of the floor? I like thinset under the durarock to provide a cushion between the sub floor and fix any voids. I would be concerned about movement and cracks.
> 
> But thats why I asked, no tile officianado here.


That's what the AD is for. Movement.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> That's what the AD is for. Movement.


Cool, thanks. Looking it up:thumbsup:


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> That's what the AD is for. Movement.


You can also use laticrete hydro ban, or Noble TS Both are thin an add crack isolation.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Its the same as Hydroban, right?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Huck and I posted at the same time, lol. I dig Hydroban, but havent used Aqua Defense. Its either Red Guard or Hydroban through my supplier, but I could probably order something else. 

Anyone use Red Guard? Thoughts?


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Its the same as Hydroban, right?


Yep! The big difference with hydro ban, if used in conjunction with laticrete's other products. They offer one of the industry's best warranty. 

As for Redguard not a huge fan, always used Mapie or laticrete.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Aqua d is worlds better in my opinion. Drys faster, rolls on thicker, adheres better..

Mapelastic is the worst of the group, even worse than red gaurd, in my opinion..


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Here's a pic I pulled from another forum. Couldnt find any on my new old phone.


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

Jaws said:


> Huck and I posted at the same time, lol. I dig Hydroban, but havent used Aqua Defense. Its either Red Guard or Hydroban through my supplier, but I could probably order something else.
> 
> Anyone use Red Guard? Thoughts?


I use RedGuard on every job. Slightly different application than what I think you guys are talking about, as the floors are all floated. Also use it to isolate any cracks in concrete floors that I tile, as well as on floated walls where and when it's required. Works excellent every time. I haven't used any of the others as the RedGuard has yet to let me down.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Here's a pic I pulled from another forum. Couldnt find any on my new old phone.


Are you taping the seams?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Yes. This may need its own thread. There is a very good one somewhere already.

I space the 3/4" ply 1/8 during installation. The plywood gets wood glued to the existing sub floor much like you'd do with contact cement. Then tape the seams with fiberfuse set in aqua d. 4-5 coats of aqua d and you have a bullet proof subfloor which meets all deflection requirements. Can't do that with cement board..


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)




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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I order 6 ply cdx too when doing this because it gets you a little more rigidity for a few more dollars..


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

country_huck said:


> Some of the old timers would notch the 2x12 floor joists to accommodate sheeting boards and a traditional mud set floor. The mudset could be 1 1/2 thick. After demo you need to build that backup. I did a floor last year that took 2 layers of 3/4 and a layer of 1/4 cement board. After tile it was level to the original wood floor.


Guess I've seen more situations where the floor sheeting was let into the joist. More often 1x8 and newer old homes 1/2". Seen some '30's and older homes where they notched the jiosts for the pans.

In regard to BC's dilemma; letting 3/4" between the joists and a "1/4" tile substrate may present a solution. Mo work and Mo money but a solution?

Fresh in my mind, wrapping up a bathroom that required that methodology and more  :clap:


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Yes. This may need its own thread. There is a very good one somewhere already.
> 
> I space the 3/4" ply 1/8 during installation. The plywood gets wood glued to the existing sub floor much like you'd do with contact cement. Then tape the seams with fiberfuse set in aqua d. 4-5 coats of aqua d and you have a bullet proof subfloor which meets all deflection requirements. Can't do that with cement board..


This is just me asking cause I'm trying to learn. Say that your joists were sized to handle the deflection properly, and you had 3/4" T&G subfloor, why not put ditra over top of it? My understanding is that would meet the deflection requirement correct?

I guess I'm just trying to understand the reason in doing it this way with the plywood. Is it cost, finish floor height, quality of work?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

While the book may say this is exceptible and clearly for the sake of argument because in this case the joists were not appropriate, I'm not a ditra believer. Just now way I'm going to agree that an 1/8" of plastic is a suitable replacement for a 3/4 sheet of plywood.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

You're saying replacement for 3/4", meaning you add 3/4" over whatever the existing subfloor typically where as some would use ditra?

Just trying to understand.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Yes. You need 1.5" of subfloor to get away with this technique. This gives you a quantifiable increase in floor strength.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Yes. You need 1.5" of subfloor to get away with this technique. This gives you a quantifiable increase in floor strength.


Having never installed a natural stone floor, would an approach like this be necessary to achieve proper deflection for natural stone?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Having never installed a natural stone floor, would an approach like this be necessary to achieve proper deflection for natural stone?


There are tons of approaches which would work. This is the only one I'm aware of which will stiffen an already maxed joist system..

In this case we removed cement board and tile. In the end I calculated we decreased the amount of weight on the floor.


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> This is just me asking cause I'm trying to learn. Say that your joists were sized to handle the deflection properly, and you had 3/4" T&G subfloor, why not put ditra over top of it? My understanding is that would meet the deflection requirement correct? I guess I'm just trying to understand the reason in doing it this way with the plywood. Is it cost, finish floor height, quality of work?


The TCNA says that you have to have a min. 1 1/8" of plywood to tile to if your tiling directly to plywood. 

Ditra, aqua d, noble, redguard, hydro ban, and cement board do not add strength the flooring assembly.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

country_huck said:


> The TCNA says that you have to have a min. 1 1/8" of plywood to tile to if your tiling directly to plywood.
> 
> Ditra, aqua d, noble, redguard, hydro ban, and cement board do not add strength the flooring assembly.


1 1/8" of what kind of plywood? On what joist span? On what joist size?

Deflection rating is more important than an arbitrary number.


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> 1 1/8" of what kind of plywood? On what joist span? On what joist size? Deflection rating is more important than an arbitrary number.


The guideline I was referring to iOS the minimum required for tiling directly to plywood. 

Obvisouly you will need to check deflection and add wood, joists, or blocking as needed to meet the deflection ratio for the tile your working with.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> 1 1/8" of what kind of plywood? On what joist span? On what joist size?
> 
> Deflection rating is more important than an arbitrary number.


If I build it its 1 1/8 CDX TNG on 2' centers, web trusses or properly speced joists. 40 lbs dead and 10 live live load, I rate for 60. Liquid Nails and 3" screws, 6" on the edges and 8" in the field. That SOB will not deflect or squeak, ever. :thumbsup:

Considering Advantech quiet floor, more for CDX quality issues than quiet, insulation between the first and second floor take care of that.


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## mski (Apr 4, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Why would you add an additional 1/2" durarock on the floor after adding over an inch of subfloor?


Either 1/4" or 1/2" I add depending on the +/- thickness of the original mud bed that was removed to bring it back up to original height (give or take)

Example- adding 3/4" ply and 1/2" durarock (sometimes only 1/4" durarock )on top of the original 1/2" subfloor (which is under the mud bed) brings it up to the original thickness of the mud bed.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> I know how that goes. I had same issue with lowes. I pay the card completely of before each payment is due. Well for some reason I can't do online payments. They said there's an issue with my bank which won't allow it so I have to goto the store to pay it. No big deal seeings there's 4 within 15mins but the issue comes when the only checkout you can pay at is the customer service desk. Each and every time I go to pay its the only checkout open and has about 10 people checking out and on the back side if that desk there's the returns desk. Well there also always a line of people there to. There's only one person who runs this whole desk and she directs calls too so in sure everyone knows how this goes. Normally about a 30-40min wait each time to pay the card down. One time I said **** it as I was not wasting anymore time. Ended up with a late charge and interest being charge on the amount owed even though it only went over by 1 day. I blew my top but they wouldn't do anything. Said I had to call the card provider and they said basically tuff luck.
> 
> You wouldn't believe the issues I have had with kitchens from them either. Let me keep this short. Every job wrong cabinets ordered, wrong handles ordered, not enough cabinets ordered, damaged cabinets and then customers being called liars even though I make sure I'm there and take note of everything they say and I get called a liar too, being charged delivery charges for stuff they forget to order. Items that are missing take about 3months on avg to turn up. Went just the other day to put the missing handles pulls and doors into a kitchen I finished up about 2 months ago. That customer was extremely pissed of but when I said try lowes as it was the only local place to them with kitchens I didn't know this store was vastly worse than my local stores. I felt bad and threw in some freebies but lowes wouldn't do nothing.
> 
> I'm now at that point where if they mention lowes I tell them sorry I can't do the work using there products. It just cost me way too much time, money and headaches. The pro/contractor desks also have given the worst hack advice to "contractors" in this area too.



ummm..they give you a nice preprinted envelop and pay stub to send in..all you have to do is write the check and put a stamp on it? or do you not know how to do that?

as for being called a liar? doubt that.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> If I build it its 1 1/8 CDX TNG on 2' centers, web trusses or properly speced joists. 40 lbs dead and 10 live live load, I rate for 60. Liquid Nails and 3" screws, 6" on the edges and 8" in the field. That SOB will not deflect or squeak, ever. :thumbsup:
> 
> Considering Advantech quiet floor, more for CDX quality issues than quiet, insulation between the first and second floor take care of that.


Great, but I am not talking about building anything. What I am talking about is using an arbitrary number instead of calculating your conditions to get proper deflection rating.

I rarely have to build a subfloor up that much to meet deflection rating for my floors.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Great, but I am not talking about building anything. What I am talking about is using an arbitrary number instead of calculating your conditions to get proper deflection rating.
> 
> I rarely have to build a subfloor up that much to meet deflection rating for my floors.


:thumbsup:


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## Itrimit (Aug 28, 2013)

jamestrd said:


> ummm..they give you a nice preprinted envelop and pay stub to send in..all you have to do is write the check and put a stamp on it? or do you not know how to do that?
> 
> as for being called a liar? doubt that.


Boy talk about rude and uncalled for.


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## Itrimit (Aug 28, 2013)

BCConstruction said:


> The last thing was a home theater wall plate joby with a few parts in the box. went in there the next week as they had none left and shelf was full and grabbed one without checking what was inside it and got to the job and as i emptied the stuff out i then noticed i bought the same one again.
> 
> The one before that was a set of fatmax saw horses. returned them as they had a couple of the clips broken and didnt notcie until i was about to open them up. I went and grabbed some bits and pieces then on the way out i grabbed another set of horses and got to the job and notcied they were the ones i just returned. SOB's put everything thats faulty back out on display hoping someone with buy it and make do.
> 
> ...


Sounds like Bill Murray in "Groundhog Day"


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## mike d. (Dec 2, 2009)

I like the fact that I can shop till 10pm,,,and Sundays. I find in my HD most sales have great experience in the trades. Some are former trades people. I rather go to the big box stores then the local lumber yard. And I have been doing this well over 30 years.


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## Mrmac204 (Dec 27, 2006)

F*** hd !!!! f*** F****f***** !!!!! G(*&D#(*(T!!! f(*****(*** waste of time no nothings!!!!!!!!!! 
can't even get a tape measure. J(***(()( st! sticker said 12.95, it rang up as 29.95. WTF????? 

I don't have time for BS. My main tape just wore out, and my backup tape blew in 1/2. Just bad luck I guess, both were old.

I drove down to my local lumber yard and got one from there - long drive but they had what I wanted, in and out under 5 mins.

You'd think that they could put the correct sticker on the peg. Nope, and they wouldn't honor the price. I don't have time to argue, I just left. They really don't get it, do the job right the first time, then customers know what the correct prices are! and if you screw it up, say sorry dude take it for 12.95. I guess those days are gone. It'd sure be good PR, but I think that this outfit doesn't give a good g*(****mn about that.

Back to work!!


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> I dare say it depends on which store you deal with. There are about 5 of each within 25 min of my house. A great friend who has been in the business for a long time works at one of the lowes. He has fixed issues for us before the same way a supplier would.
> Same thing with a Home Depot, guy who I have known since I was 5 (yeah, I'm young... Lol) is a manager there.
> A different HD has a lady who knows her stuff. Like no joke, I will walk across the store to ask her anything, cause she knows the whole entire store. She has never not known where something was.
> A different lowes is who we deal with for cabinets. The guy is awesome. We have his cell, you can call him at night and when he is off, etc.
> ...


My experience is just the same.... I don't have any lumber yards near me, no electrical nor plumbing. The ones I've had to use for a specialty item, have been OK I guess, but nothing special.

Generally, you have to know the store. My local store, and a few of the employees are good excellent resources. They call me by name and I've really never had any trouble with a product return... they do the extra's... drop a new bunk down for me to cull if necessary...etc

Now I will say out in Cali at my daughters, I've used some specialty trade shops... electrical and flooring. The electric supply was useless with some local type questions I had, selection was poor. The flooring store was OK.

Yes... There are alot of DIY at HD, but alot of contractors too.
I'm glad they are around.....

I will say that down in Dana Point at my son's, the local Gahnahl is terrific, well stocked, and knowledgeable.... and not too pricey...plus they are the closest.

I'm glad they are around also.


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