# Stone Foundation and Brick Pointing



## R.J. (Sep 28, 2013)

It's a two story building constructed around 1930 or so. The foundation is rubble/ stone and brick which was covered in stucco numerous times over the years. Most of the stucco was cracked and was easily removed with a prybar. It also appears that some type of blue waterproof coating was used to waterproof it underneath.

The stone foundation is six feet below grade and protrudes three feet above transitioning into brick. The mortar (appears to be lime) used on the stone is virtually dust and was easily removed with a chisel and the rest with a pressure washer. The brick is spalled in many areas and some will need to be changed.

I wanted to try and repoint everything and possibly just Thoroseal instead of stuccoing. The main issue are the stones in the foundation. There a huge voids between them and alot of the stones themselves are soft and easily turn into a metallic dust if you rub them hard enough. I assume the stones inside are in better condition, haha. I was planning on using Type N to fill the voids, repoint and reface the stones, and repoint the brick.

It's too dark now to take good photos, but will get some up tomorrow.


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

R.J. said:


> It's too dark now to take good photos, but will get some up tomorrow.





Good idea ! you know that a picture etc.etc. Look forward to seeing them.


----------



## R.J. (Sep 28, 2013)

This is the front of the building. Note the gapping holes and voids.










This is about midpoint and to the left used to be a window which was blocked up two years ago.










The grey stuff on the left is actually some kind of goopy waterproofing. To the right, I washed the brick with a heated pressure washer. Above is the old stucco yet to be removed.










Here's a closeup of the stones. I only removed about 1/2 inch of the mortar. Most of it crumbled out easy.










This is the chimney which was pretty damaged after the stucco was removed by hand.










Here's the base of the chimney. I cut away a section of the concrete to expose the top of the foundation and brick. 










Here is the rear of the building and to the right is the chimney riser.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

It should be filled and repointed with a lime mortar. Where is your location.


----------



## R.J. (Sep 28, 2013)

NY. I found a supplyhouse that carries Virginia Limestone mortar, but it's almost $40 a bag. Would Type N on the brickjoints be fine?


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

A little info..

http://www.virginialimeworks.com/hydraulic-lime.html



below is a bunch of videos


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyplL8eR4Y4&feature=c4-overview&list=UUtWuIvsfPydARxk-tm_xBZQ


scroll down to* Part 1: An Introduction to Traditional Masonry Part *

*and work your way through to 10*


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Ive had several lime projects this year and have been using the 150 building lime. The stuff is fantastic. I love it. Matches the lime stuff around here perfectly.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

R.J. said:


> NY. I found a supplyhouse that carries Virginia Limestone mortar, but it's almost $40 a bag. Would Type N on the brickjoints be fine?


No.

Its well worth the $40. Your only looking at maybe under 10 bags I would guess. Small money and not where you should look for savings.


----------



## R.J. (Sep 28, 2013)

JBM said:


> No.
> 
> Its well worth the $40. Your only looking at maybe under 10 bags I would guess. Small money and not where you should look for savings.


I bought 14 bags of Building 200 and sand. Having never used this before, the bags were pretty easy to carry. The Anti-hernia mortar, haha.

I did have a few questions though. After repointing with this stuff, can I go back and scratch coat the stones without worrying about cold joint issues? My goal is to cover the the entire base of stones for protection with a stucco rendering. Also, I'm going to replace the concrete driveway where the concrete will butt up against the newly stuccoed stones. How well does portland cement based product mate with lime based? Flashing, covering the coves with a line of Portland, or just a simple bead of good ole' NP1?


----------



## R.J. (Sep 28, 2013)

MAULEMALL said:


> A little info..
> 
> http://www.virginialimeworks.com/hydraulic-lime.html
> 
> ...


Hey thanks. I watched all of them and got quite the history lesson. Considering I knew absolutely nothing about older mortars, it was a good first step.

I talked to a couple of GCs I do work for on other jobs, and all of them looked at me like I had three heads when I brough up lime mortar. Their solution was pack the hell out of the joints with Portland with a bonding admix and call it a day.


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Just to stir the pot. I believe Va.Lime Works makes a good product. Is it really and truly that much better and really needed at $40 a bag ?



Here is another "expert" opinion.


http://muralsplus.com/forum/default.php?topic=59150.10;wap2


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Another in support of ordinary type S hydrated lime.


http://www.buildinglime.org/Thomson_TypeS.pdf


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Another "expert " opinion.



http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/w...&T=text/html; charset=us-ascii&XSS=3&header=1


----------



## R.J. (Sep 28, 2013)

From one of your links:



> . "Hydraulic lime" and "traditional" is a bait-and-switch. On the one hand, the historically accurate material - ordinary, non-hydraulic lime - is embraced. Then the purveyors of hydraulic lime monger a little fear and switch you to this hydrated hydraulic lime substitute. Yes hydraulic lime was traditional in the 19th century - in EUROPE! IT IS SOMEBODY ELSE'S TRADITION - NOT OURS! While some hydraulic lime was imported to the US, it was never intentionally produced here and finding it in forensic analyses occasionally, but rarely, happens. If people are so worried that just plain lime won't kick fast enough, there is a traditional 19th century solution to this problem - they added a little natural cement to the mix.


I have almost the entire stone rendering rough pointed in Hydraulic Lime (1:2) Lime to sand ratio. After almost 5 days, it's hardened, but there is just something loopy or off about it. If you tap it lightly with a chisel, it's still "soft" unlike Portland where you get nice solid feedback. Perhaps it just needs more time to cure, IDK.

I'm getting ready to start pointing the brick next week, and am somewhat uncomfortable using this stuff. I found it funny in that quoted excerpt about adding cement. Everytime I'm mixing this stuff, I wanna add Portland to it!

Another weird property (if you wish to call it) of the H-Lime is that it appears to be leeching color or something from the stones. Many areas turned from a bright white into a darkish blue.

I'll get some pictures up tomorrow.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

For the most part I stay out of all the lime discussions. If something needs to be touched up with lime ill just get the one from Virginal lime or there is another one ive come across. The lime mortar does stay soft for a few days. It will harden eventually. If possible I mist it and I do keep it out of blaring sun the best I can.

A quote from Virginia Lime 



> Utilizing technology that dates back to the Roman Empire, Virginia Lime Works Building Lime is a hydraulic lime in which we take the finest quality double slaked low temperature fired hydrated lime and blend it with our special pozzolan (similar to volcanic ash) to yield a consistent and long lasting material that conforms to ASTM C1707. Contrary to what others might say, our pozzolan is most certainly not Portland Cement or Pulverized Fly Ash. It's actually a blend of materials that have been around forever, and have an established track record in building construction.


when using a Hydrated lime does it have this pozzolan in it like described? Im thinking if it doesnt then it wont harden correctly. 

Like I said I know there has been many lime threads here but Ive not really read any of them.

Here is a pic of something I was touching up. It is hard as I would expect.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

fjn said:


> Just to stir the pot. I believe Va.Lime Works makes a good product. Is it really and truly that much better and really needed at $40 a bag ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I havnt used any other lime but Virginias and another company which is also a restoration lime. The fist time I used it I was blown away at the workability, the texture, the body , everything. Its my perfect mortar actually. Has amazing pan life, I could go on and on.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

R.J. said:


> I bought 14 bags of Building 200 and sand. Having never used this before, the bags were pretty easy to carry. The Anti-hernia mortar, haha.
> 
> I did have a few questions though. After repointing with this stuff, can I go back and scratch coat the stones without worrying about cold joint issues? My goal is to cover the the entire base of stones for protection with a stucco rendering. Also, I'm going to replace the concrete driveway where the concrete will butt up against the newly stuccoed stones. How well does portland cement based product mate with lime based? Flashing, covering the coves with a line of Portland, or just a simple bead of good ole' NP1?


I am a silpro and or umaco stucco freak myself, so I know what your thinking,. That you can stucco this with this stuff and finish it off and it will look like the cats ass. Well .I would not. The stucco is waterproof as well as "breathable" but there is breathable in a portland cementious world and there is breathable in a lime mortar world. The two dont mix. If you sit back and look around you will see lime mortar buildings a hundred years old that have yet to be repointed. Let the mortar work as it was designed to. You also need to take into consideration proper water management. 

As far as butting concrete against it, do what you would normally do if it butted against a chimney or blockwork or whatever. I would allow for some movement at minimum. 

In summary I would look at Superseals posts on ribbon pointing :laughing:


----------



## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

What is your lime mix, Jeff?


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> What is your lime mix, Jeff?


The Virginia Building lime 150 2.5:1


----------



## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JBM said:


> The Virginia Building lime 150 2.5:1


2 lime, 5 sand, 1?


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

2.5 sand to 1 lime.


----------



## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

stonecutter said:


> 2 lime, 5 sand, 1?





JBM said:


> 2.5 sand to 1 lime.


Oh boy...that was dumb.:laughing:


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Its ok Ive seen your pizza door, you get a pass 

I bought a small pan, I mean a small one , from Walmart and use that to scoop the sand and mortar. 5 scoops of sand 2 scoops of lime is enough to last me 45 minutes or so.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

The stuff mixes in a bucket remarkably ez too. With a margin trowel takes 30 seconds.


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

JBM said:


> I havnt used any other lime but Virginias and another company which is also a restoration lime. The fist time I used it I was blown away at the workability, the texture, the body , everything. Its my perfect mortar actually. Has amazing pan life, I could go on and on.




I do not discount your findings of Virginia's lime one iota.I will say this though,I have experienced those same attributes by taking ordinary type S dry mixing it with sand,wetting it up and letting it sit for as long as possible (min. 3 days) I have found that it yields a mortar that is uncanny at its ability to carry sand. At a 1-3 mix it yields a "fat" mortar that IMHO has the ability to carry one more part sand (I admit I refrained from trying)for fear the strength would be compromised.



I have talked to the Price family several times,have no doubt they are sincere in their endeavors. I will admit though,I'M a tad suspect that they have "discovered" the holy grail of pozzalons yet I'am not aware they have disclosed what exactly it is. The masonry industry tends to disseminate findings quite readily,yet this secret stuff is held very close to the vest. We are not talking about the secret formula for Coca Cola.
That has a tendency for me to conjure up images of snake oil sold off the back of a covered wagon,along with the "special" lime from France.


I hold no ill will for those producers of "special" lime or those that use it,just not necessary IMHO.


By writing this I'M not even trying to convince others they should not buy / use it. If one feels the need to use $40 a bag lime that is definitely their prerogative.


----------



## R.J. (Sep 28, 2013)

fjn said:


> I do not discount your findings of Virginia's lime one iota.I will say this though,I have experienced those same attributes by taking ordinary type S dry mixing it with sand,wetting it up and letting it sit for as long as possible (min. 3 days) I have found that it yields a mortar that is uncanny at its ability to carry sand. At a 1-3 mix it yields a "fat" mortar that IMHO has the ability to carry one more part sand (I admit I refrained from trying)for fear the strength would be compromised.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I actually was really suprised at how easy it is to work with this stuff and cleanup is much easier. I agree though, I'm not so sure these "secret" pozzolans are some special concoction that would have made the Roman Empire masons do backflips.

I thought the initial cost was a bit much, but the total yield is quite large once the sand is added. If you had to everything with the mix-n-go buckets, your wallet would explode.

IDK, I guess time will tell just how resilient this stuff is.


----------

