# Builder beating me down



## Plumber_Pete (Jan 25, 2008)

So today I get a call from a builder that I do a fair amount of work for. Hes putting in a pool house and has forms up and ready for me. First thing I say is hold on I haven't even seen prints much less give you a price. So I get the prints, 3 fixture bathroom plus a water heater, which I count as a fixture.

750 a fixture- 3k for the rough, top out, and trim.

I get a call back saying this is way too much. "The rough will only take you 4 hours you are making too much."

I don't get it, I bid the same rate as I always do and he never has a problem on the big houses paying this much. Why since this is a smaller project should I lower my rate? i know it's not much time but I have overhead. I am not getting rich off this nor is the 3k going straight in my pocket. Now as I said he gives me a lot of work and normally does not say anything about price whatsoever. Would you take one in the rear just to save face with the guy or tell him to find someone else?

Sorry this isn't really a question it's just got me a little frustrated since all I ever do for this guy is bust ass and try my best to get his projects done right.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

It does seem a little high. I've been paying 500 per fixture but that price hasn't changed in 20 years. If you lower your price on this one, he will expect the same from now on.


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## Plumber_Pete (Jan 25, 2008)

Thats exactly what I'm worried about. I would not make any money at 500 per. 750 Is a very competitive rate around here in fact I know others who charge more. What aggravates me is this guy has told me face to face that I take care of him better than most of his trades and better than any plumber he's had in the past.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

I estimate based on $2100.00 per fixture, and that may go up soon.


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## j_builder (May 10, 2008)

That price quote sounds fair enough:thumbsup: Just paid nine hundred a fixture here last year cause I didn't have the time for plumbing (more important things) _not that plumbing takes any less skills_ planning,framing,finding more work for the crew.

Stick to your guns with your price imo!

BTW I had to repair the "water hammer" that the plumber created for free


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Do not cave......If you do, you have started the proverbial snowball rolling down the proverbial hill.


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Per fixture pricing by plumbers boggles my mind. Why? Because most of the remodel jobs I have done requiring a plumber are remove and replace jobs where the existing supplies are cut and they tie in as much new pipe as possible with the room's walls open. At the most, maybe 16' feet of 1/2" is used for the whole job. The work is generally very redundant (a pipe is a pipe) and is usually done mostly by $10 per hour helpers. 

If my plumber is in the bathroom for 4 hours TOTAL for three fixtures, he's making a load of money at $800 per fixture. I know about overhead and whatnot, but that amount of money for basic work is just stupid.

Then again, maybe I'm just jealous that the plumbers seemed to have universally banded together to create baseline pricing that us dumb remodelers are too stupid to do. We fight over who charges the least.:laughing:


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## essrmo (May 2, 2007)

MALCO.New.York said:


> Do not cave......If you do, you have started the proverbial snowball rolling down the proverbial hill.


exactly. :thumbsup: he is shaking your hand with one hand and handing you s**t with the other. did gas go down? show him invoices of what he's been paying you since the beginning. maybe somebody else is writing the checks.


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## BKFranks (Feb 19, 2008)

Tell him gas prices are causing all your materials to increase. Gas prices to and from the jobs and to pickup materials. Someone's got to pay for it.


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

Why tell him anything, he doesn't run your business. Ask him questions: You've been happy to pay this in the past, what has changed except the price of everything, which has gone up?


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## Plumber_Pete (Jan 25, 2008)

Greg Di,

This is new construction. A lot more than 12" of pipe and a lot more knowledge is required than your 10 an hour helper has.


I am going to stick by my price. We'll see what happens.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

skyhook said:


> It does seem a little high. I've been paying 500 per fixture but that price hasn't changed in 20 years. If you lower your price on this one, he will expect the same from now on.


*I don't know anyone that'll rough & finish at that price...$750 is rediculous...I think you forgot a zero or something.*


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

Plumber_Pete said:


> Greg Di,
> 
> This is new construction. A lot more than 12" of pipe and a lot more knowledge is required than your 10 an hour helper has.
> 
> ...


*Good man, it gets to the point where you have to weigh out whether you're just better off working as an employee with insurance & bennies paid for with no ad budget.*


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

Greg Di said:


> If my plumber is in the bathroom for 4 hours TOTAL for three fixtures, he's making a load of money at $800 per fixture. I know about overhead and whatnot, but that amount of money for basic work is just stupid.
> ........


*You either know more about how to do my trade than anyone here, or your not very bright.*

*How long you been plumbing?*


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## Plumber_Pete (Jan 25, 2008)

I guess 4 hours and a piece of 1/2" pipe and everyone can be a plumber!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

How does a plumber do it with per fixture pricing? Are you doing this without seeing the job or seeing the job and then guestimating the added or lower actual difficulty and adjusting your per fixture price up and down in your head.

If you don't see the job and just charge X all the time per fixture how does that work out? Are you just figuring on the long run it all works out? Do you just roll with it when you get into the job and you spend an extra 4-5 hours then you normally do? Fixtures don't matter either? Roughing and trimming a fancy wall mounted hidden tank toilet is the same cost as roughing and trimming a normal 2 piece toilet?


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> How does a plumber do it with per fixture pricing? Are you doing this without seeing the job or seeing the job and then guestimating the added or lower actual difficulty and adjusting your per fixture price up and down in your head.
> 
> If you don't see the job and just charge X all the time per fixture how does that work out? Are you just figuring on the long run it all works out? Do you just roll with it when you get into the job and you spend an extra 4-5 hours then you normally do? Fixtures don't matter either? Roughing and trimming a fancy wall mounted hidden tank toilet is the same cost as roughing and trimming a normal 2 piece toilet?


*Good questions, there are exceptions...like pedastils vs vanities, widespread vs mini, but it looks like Pete was referring to repetitive low end work.*

*I will say that $750 per fixture is very low...I don't know anyone in my area pricing that low, excepting maybe large multi-residential units where there are hundreds of units that are all relatively the same layout.*
*you'll probably find we all have our own way of pricing, but rule of thumb for a 3 piece bath and kitchen it averages out.*
*My area averages anywhere from $1k to $1.5 each...could be a cost of living thing too.*


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## Plumber_Pete (Jan 25, 2008)

Grumpy is right. I start with a base price. It goes up for ped lavs, wide spreads, drop in tubs, custom showers, anything other than your standard builder grade. I WISH I could get more than 750 per but I would not sell any jobs. Everyone around here in Austin on residential is right there or less. I know people that bid commercial up to $1500 a fixture though.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> How does a plumber do it with per fixture pricing? Are you doing this without seeing the job or seeing the job and then guestimating the added or lower actual difficulty and adjusting your per fixture price up and down in your head.
> 
> If you don't see the job and just charge X all the time per fixture how does that work out? Are you just figuring on the long run it all works out? Do you just roll with it when you get into the job and you spend an extra 4-5 hours then you normally do? Fixtures don't matter either? Roughing and trimming a fancy wall mounted hidden tank toilet is the same cost as roughing and trimming a normal 2 piece toilet?


Per fixture is a tool I use to establish a base number, it gets adjusted for the situation, if the scope of work involves installing a Duravit concealed tank toilet on the other side of the bathroom, it will get adjusted up to cover the 3" copper that will have to be run, as well some added rough time for the carrier. My per fixture is also based on worst possible scenario, lav is figured as a 3 piece console table with a bottle trap, etc. There is also add-ons for things like concrete removal, usually the GC will do the removal because I price it as a plumber doing it, which is a little expensive, but we have been paid to trench concrete.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

I've been paying about $1000 a fixture in Mpls for remodels. Sometimes I pay more like maybe $1300 to $1500 a fixture. Then I mark that up to pay OH and profit.
$750 sounds good, but every area is different.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

The plumbers in my area seem to be starting to cut prices....one guy did quote me $1250 per, but I am paying around $700 on bid. And please, don't accuse me of low balling the plumbers. This is what the rate is here. 

So threaderman, what is it going for in the city?


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

I pay 1000 per fixture 250 per additional faucet and 500 for additional sink


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

silvertree said:


> I've been paying about $1000 a fixture in Mpls for remodels. Sometimes I pay more like maybe $1300 to $1500 a fixture. Then I mark that up to pay OH and profit.
> $750 sounds good, but every area is different.


If I bid the high rise work we do at a $1,000.00 a fixture I'd be out of business in a month.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

So per piece, really isn't what it sounds like. You aren't expecting a GC to think I have a 5 piece bathroom so @$750 each this should end up $3750. You guys are still going to figure plus or minus depending on the circumstances.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

thats for residential remodels usually no more than 3 level house


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Just to clarify how we do it on plumbing, simple change outs are one price, cutting the stack and tying in is more, distance from stack adds. If we run into lead, its extra. 
But for pricing purposes my plumber seems happy with the $1000 to rough in and run vents and supply lines per fixture. He seems to live pretty well.
Customers are given the standard "hidden problems are extra" clause, and everyone seems happy.
All said and done the plumber usually gets $3500 to $6000 plus fixtures for my average bath. Last one came in at $3000 for WC, vanity, supply lines to basement (Pex) and 1 Kohler bubble jet. I thought that was a screaming deal, so I wrote that check in record time.:laughing:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Personally, I don't want to hear a "per fixture"
price. Maybe it would give me too much to
think about.
I just want to hear *the* number.
It either works or it doesn't.


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

Tell that guy that you'll take another look at it and get back to him the following morning. Call him up the next am and tell him after looking at it a little more closely you realize that you were in fact off in your pricing. Inform him that the new price is $850 per but only if he authorizes today. Tommorrow it will be $900 and $950 the day after that.

I know you can't but wouldn't it be fun!


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## 3Kings Plumbing (Jan 2, 2008)

*Pricing*

I'm kinda new to this pricing thing. What I do on a new custome home with maniblock I'm about $3500.00-$4500.00 per bath depends on grade of fixtures that are used. On like a track home I'm $3000.00-3500.00 per bath. (my price includes everything that involves plumbing from start to finish).

Remodels:I guess how long it's going to take me to do it. I figure my material cost x that by 1.5 then + 20%. Works out Ok for me. (Still in business so far.)

Here is an example: 
I have to install an Lasco 1362-c (1 piece corner unit)shower unit with Delta CH 1400 series valve. relocate toilet over 30" to allow room for the shower unit. I got the unit for $350.00 the valve and trim for $90.00. $60.00 in material to move toilet and reset toilet after floor is repaired, also material for drain relocation and water lines to shower valve. So material wise I'm at $500.00 x 1.5 = $750.00 + 20%+ $900.00
I figure 11.25 hrs to do the job+ drive time. So $80.00x 11.25 = $900.00
The grand total is $1800.00 for that job. 

" I'M NOT HERE TO MAKE MONEY FOLKS, I JUST LOVE TO PLUMB":w00t:


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

neolitic said:


> Personally, I don't want to hear a "per fixture"
> price. Maybe it would give me too much to
> think about.
> I just want to hear *the* number.
> It either works or it doesn't.


That is what I prefer as well...I had to look at the last bid and divide by fixtures to see if it is close.


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## masterk (Dec 29, 2007)

rbsremodeling said:


> I pay 1000 per fixture 250 per additional faucet and 500 for additional sink


additional faucet and additional sink = 1 fixture = 1,000.00
Do you install alot of sinks with 2 faucets or alot of faucets with 2 sinks:laughing:


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

masterk said:


> additional faucet and additional sink = 1 fixture = 1,000.00
> Do you install alot of sinks with 2 faucets or alot of faucets with 2 sinks:laughing:


That's for double sinks or showers with multiple faucets or sprays then its additional


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## Plumb Crazy (Jun 20, 2008)

You answered your own question. If you know your overhead (rent, vehicles, G/L, W/C, FICA, S.S., office, Continuing Education, etc) + cost of goods sold = ( break even point ) plus the profit margin you are after ( usually 30 to 40 % ) then you can figure basic flat rate pricing with certain modifiers. Plumbers provide a service of Public Health and safety so the End justifies the Cost. Why would anybody do a job to break even or lose money. Why would you continually fight for work based on llower prices when all costs continually go up. Sooner or later it will supersede your break even point and you wont last long. If you want cheap work you get what you pay for and that demeans the building Trades as a whole. If you start cutting corners to stay so low your product will reflect and each time that happens another homeowner loses faith and bad mouths the trades. If you can get billy bob or jose the handyman to do it because theyre cheaper you will inevitably pay for it later anyway.

BOTTOM LINE. YOU CANT PUT PRICES ON ANOTHER MANS WORK UNLESS YOU CONTROL THEIR BALANCE SHEET.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Plumber_Pete said:


> So today I get a call from a builder that I do a fair amount of work for. Hes putting in a pool house and has forms up and ready for me. First thing I say is hold on I haven't even seen prints much less give you a price. So I get the prints, 3 fixture bathroom plus a water heater, which I count as a fixture.
> 
> 750 a fixture- 3k for the rough, top out, and trim.
> 
> I get a call back saying this is way too much. "The rough will only take you 4 hours you are making too much."


I think he's misunderstanding you or we are. Is this labor only? Even at that, these are not unreasonable prices.

I think he's mistaken to try to break this down to the hour. If it takes you all day, is he going to pay more? If you have to dig with a pick and scoop out the fines with a pail, is he going to pay more?

I would ask him what price he thinks is fair, and remind him that plumbing might look easy, but you're not a laborer, you're a skilled tradesman. A licensed one, at that. 

Pricing in plumbing is less competitive, but not because of price fixing by the plumbers. What drives the cost is the investment. Plumber's tools are two to three times as expensive as other specialty tools. You can buy a good miter saw for under $500.00. Try buying a good chain vise for that. Snap cutters $400.00 on the low end. Die sets $600.00 for 3/8-2", typical of the sizes used in residential. 

Insurance? Fahgetaboutit! You don't want to know what remodel plumbers that tell the truth pay for liability insurance.

Your GC just has his head up his ass and is thinking he's hiring a laborer. The overhead of most other trades is nothing near that of a plumber. How many carpenters do you know that own a track hoe?

How many painters do you know that have more than $1,500.00 invested in just tools to be able to do one type of job? Spray rig? You can roll if you have to, it doesn't count. Trying running black gas pipe without a vice, pipe cutter or ratchet dies... It can't be done.

Don't hate on the plumbers because there are glue jockeys in the world that have only one skill... running PVC or ABS at warp speed while making your framing look like Swiss cheese.

Show some love to the plumbers that leave your job site with a fat check knowing you won't have to call them back for anything but to thank them for a job well done. A job, btw, that most people in this world consider beneath their dignity to perform.

Plumbers protect the health and safety of our nation. Don't hate us for getting paid well do to it.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

Plumber_Pete said:


> I get a call back saying this is way too much. "The rough will only take you 4 hours you are making too much."
> 
> I don't get it, I bid the same rate as I always do and he never has a problem on the big houses paying this much.


I hope you don't mind my posting in the plumbing section. I see this as a GC-Sub issue. The issue is really basic. The money he talks you out of goes directly into his pocket. That is the only issue. How much are you going to pay him for 30 seconds of BS? Come back with your own BS about giving him a better rate than you give anyone else.

Dave


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

Tiger said:


> I hope you don't mind my posting in the plumbing section. I see this as a GC-Sub issue. The issue is really basic. The money he talks you out of goes directly into his pocket. That is the only issue. How much are you going to pay him for 30 seconds of BS? Come back with your own BS about giving him a better rate than you give anyone else.
> 
> Dave


*Excellent advice.*


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

joasis said:


> The plumbers in my area seem to be starting to cut prices....one guy did quote me $1250 per, but I am paying around $700 on bid. And please, don't accuse me of low balling the plumbers. This is what the rate is here.
> 
> So threaderman, what is it going for in the city?


I turn down all new construction except for additions.I have bein in the city 1 year and haven't met a GC I would work for,though I don't solicit them ,they call me.Service work was hurting in the city and for a while the only thing moving was new construction and commercial work,and to tell the truth,I can sit here and catch the occasional and do better than if I was out there roughing -in all day long because of the competition.
In the last year there has bein 1 pool house,1 cabana and 1 office/stable.That is as close to new construction as I want for now.I've got a double masters on the shovel :w00t:.Repair work and remodels is where I want to be.


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

Double-A said:


> I think he's misunderstanding you or we are. Is this labor only? Even at that, these are not unreasonable prices.
> 
> I think he's mistaken to try to break this down to the hour. If it takes you all day, is he going to pay more? If you have to dig with a pick and scoop out the fines with a pail, is he going to pay more?
> 
> ...


You are my new best friend Dbl. A,:notworthy:laughing::laughing:


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