# You all started somewhere too...



## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

As the moderator who closed the thread, I'll certainly admit I'm not perfect. It was a judgment call based on the scant information provided. Yes, we all started somewhere and a newbie shouldn't be berated just because they're inexperienced. However, as Gene pointed out, the line between deceptive DIYer and new contractor gets blurry when so little information is given--and the quality of the question seems inconsistent with a stated profession. When the OP doesn't return, it doesn't help either--and some threads need to be closed just to stop the blood letting.

In hindsight, the standard DIY spiel was probably not the best response. I should have provided him the opportunity to contact me directly to explain his question further, and extended the advice to post an introduction so his future questions might be taken more seriously.

At the end of the day, we're all big boys and girls. If you're unprepared to be challenged, then an online forum is probably not the best place to come for advice. You cannot expect to be taken seriously as a professional with a single drive-by post.


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

neolitic said:


> So everyone knows, this is what
> we were given to work with.....
> " _mgnice15
> Registered User
> ...


Now what kind of floor was this??:blink:


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

As a former first poster on CT my experience was 50/ 50 good and bad.
I got into it with a few members because I didn't "Pro talk it all up". I got slammed by a couple of guys who assumed they knew more than me on the topic which I posed as a rhetorical question.

I had 35 years in the trades when I asked that question and made my post and the replies assumed I was a hack with no experience ripping off innocent homeowners. I had nothing to prove so it was of no significance. But it wasn't friendly and it didn't make me feel like the posters were anything but experienced journeyman blowhards at best.

Today I would just figure any idiot can knock someone down and the real men help build people up.

Pick which man you want to be known as.


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## monkey (Jan 25, 2009)

silvertree said:


> As a former first poster on CT my experience was 50/ 50 good and bad.
> I got into it with a few members because I didn't "Pro talk it all up". I got slammed by a couple of guys who assumed they knew more than me on the topic which I posed as a rhetorical question.
> 
> I had 35 years in the trades when I asked that question and made my post and the replies assumed I was a hack with no experience ripping off innocent homeowners. I had nothing to prove so it was of no significance. But it wasn't friendly and it didn't make me feel like the posters were anything but experienced journeyman blowhards at best.
> ...


 
Maybe this is the wrong thread but since I joined this site I have wanted to say this...
PRICING THREADS...
No I don't have a pricing question but...
How did you all start?
The guy I worked for was almost secretive about job prices and illegaly wrote me off as a sub.
How would I know what to charge?
I just showed up for work and didn't pay attention to how long things took.
It was none of my business.
Spring of 94 I was working for myself and hearing another painters sander a few houses away.
He stopped by my jobsite and sort of took me under his wing......
He was talking pricing when he saw I knew what I was doing
He showed up with "Hey! another real painter in the neighborhood"


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

monkey said:


> Maybe this is the wrong thread but since I joined this site I have wanted to say this...
> PRICING THREADS...
> No I don't have a pricing question but...
> How did you all start?
> ...


 I've wanted to run a thread titled "Estimation 101" Since I first signed up on here. I'm really leary about writing it with some of these smartazzez on here though. I settle for "It's the way I do it." and live happily for the most part.


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## TempestV (Feb 3, 2007)

monkey said:


> How did you all start?


I guess I got lucky- my dad is a contractor. Many times while working with him, we worked together on bids. I got to see first hand many times how to do a proper bid before I ever had to do one on my own.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Personally, I have no problem sharing estimating "secrets" ~ primarily, because there is nothing "secret" about it and secondly because it helps all of US.

Typically, I'll post something like this:
How much/How Long?


I have threads like this scattered all over various forums.
When someone posts a similar type thread, I usually give them an in depth response ~ time for rough/finish; cost rough/finish; caveats; etc.

If my spidey-sense tingles even for a moment on a "How Much?" thread - they get ham slammed.
I don't pay the "How much?" game for HO's to price shop contractors.


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## Stewy (Nov 11, 2007)

If a person does not like a particular poster or posting maybe they shouldnt respond to the posting, if there were no responses the thread would just fade away. But that wouldnt be much fun would it.


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## datajam (Jul 4, 2009)

I guess I won't make comment on this topic!

Oops! I guess I did . . .

datajam


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

So sorry. Most of us grew up in a time where there were winners and losers in a game and boys settled their differences with their fists, not with a mediator. A little hazing never hurt nobody (well, mostly never seriously hurt). If an introduction was given and then the reasoning behind the request (a little history on why he was stumped in his own profession), would of went a long way. Instead, he gets upset and runs away? Tell him, from me, that when he grows some hair, down there, to return and we'll welcome him with open arms and a wedgie.:thumbsup:


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

My first couple of posts were plumbing questions.
I was called a home owner and directed to the DIY site.
I was also bashed by some plumbers for taking their work.
My feeling were really hurt. But after several sessions with my therapist, alot of crying, as well as taking self motivation/confidence classes, I decided to post again.
I am glad I did.


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## Warmsmeallup (Apr 2, 2008)

Celtic said:


> My favorite part:
> 
> _No way! _[My response in the original thread]
> 
> ...


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Warmsmeallup said:


> Celtic said:
> 
> 
> > My favorite part:
> ...


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## Warmsmeallup (Apr 2, 2008)

Absolutely, but it still, imo, should have been discussed, not treated as a 'lowly homeowner' and blown off the forum. You know, "we don't get what you're trying to say. Can you clarify it?" I've seen this asked many times. 

He does sub work for us (legitimately and with insurance EEVVEN! (thanks Snagglepuss))and does a great job. Better than any other we have. Sure, he has communication issues but that doesn't discount him to me.

He has a real problem that may not be solvable. So I sent him here because I too am just an installer (and distributor) of the same system. We arrive onsite when all is ready to go. We don't do any demo or recon work, just installations. He has an issue that is holding up his project and doesn't know how to make it happen. So, like I said, I sent him here!


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Warmsmeallup said:


> Absolutely, but it still, imo, should have been discussed, not treated as a 'lowly homeowner' and blown off the forum. You know, "we don't get what you're trying to say. Can you clarify it?" I've seen this asked many times.
> 
> He does sub work for us (legitimately and with insurance EEVVEN! (thanks Snagglepuss))and does a great job. Better than any other we have. Sure, he has communication issues but that doesn't discount him to me.
> 
> He has a real problem that may not be solvable. So I sent him here because I too am just an installer (and distributor) of the same system. We arrive onsite when all is ready to go. We don't do any demo or recon work, just installations. He has an issue that is holding up his project and doesn't know how to make it happen. So, like I said, I sent him here!


Why don't you make a post with 
the name of the product in the title?
It might draw the attention of someone
who's familiar with it.


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## BuiltByMAC (Mar 11, 2006)

One thing you may not be taking into consideration warms, is that we don't live to serve here. You sent the guy here with a specific problem expecting that we would fall all over ourselves in helping him out. Why would you do that? Have you not spent enough time here to realize that on the whole, this forum is not a place for one hit wonders to get all their questions answered FOR FREE? That's like sending him to your favorite neighborhood bar, saying, "it's alright, the boys there will buy you a beer." WTF?

Guys help each other here but usually, it's after they've spent JUST A LITTLE time in here, getting to know each other.

YOU'RE in the wrong to have sent him here expecting a quick, easy, free answer without telling him what he needed to do - ie, post a freakin' introduction, say hey to some folks, be specific in his posted question, and what the hey, maybe give a little something to the forum instead of just expecting to take. (or, start an account w/ a chick's name and a hot avatar - we'd fall all over ourselves talkin' to the new girl!!)

Your bad, man, YOU need to apologize to HIM.

Mac


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

BuiltByMAC said:


> .........*(or, start an account w/ a chick's name and a hot avatar - we'd fall all over ourselves talkin' to the new girl!!)*..........
> Mac


:clap::laughing:
Nathan should add that to his intro sticky! :laughing:


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

BuiltByMAC said:


> or, start an account w/ a chick's name and a hot avatar - we'd fall all over ourselves talkin' to the new girl!!
> 
> Mac


:laughing::laughing:

It's so true.


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## nadtwins (Nov 16, 2007)

I have been told a couple of times to go to the DYI sight, did I like it? No but I stood up for my self, never had a thread shut down and always got the help I needed ( all though by PM’s. To all those who have helped me thanks again), and in all fairness to the mods I was asking questions not in my area of expertise and about my own house If you don’t stand up for your self when some questions your credibility what message does that send? 

What I don’t understand is why wouldn’t you contact the manufacture of the product and ask them how they suggest you handle the situation? Isn’t your responsibility as a distributor of the product to help out and get an answer rather than just passing the buck?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Warmsmeallup said:


> Sure, he has communication issues but that doesn't discount him to me.


Unfortunately, this venue does require communication skills, and not necessarily exactly the same as one might use at the local watering hole. Nevertheless, it's pretty universal that no matter where you go, walking into a room full of people who don't know you from Adam and asking questions won't get you the most forthcoming responses. That's just human nature.

I won't make excuses for anyone who gets his kicks out of ridiculing noobs, (as you say, we all have to start somewhere) but ignoring basic protocols of human interaction is pretty well guaranteed to result in less than satisfactory results.

Having said all that, though I haven't reviewed the actual thread in question, it sounds like your bud needs to grow a set and bark back if he wants to be a *contributing* member of the forum. :thumbsup:


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

This is an interesting topic. I have only been here a matter of weeks but have actually obtained a couple jobs, found a good local tile sub, and gleaned a lot from the guys who have obviously been electricians longer than me and are more knowledgable than me.

This site is NO DIFFERENT than being a new guy on a crew. We all remember those days. You have to be seen and not heard for a little while, listen a lot, and decide whose opinion matters, who the guys are who will give you a straight answer, who the guys are who are in constant need to belittle someone for asking a question, and manage your feelings accordingly.

Two such examples are of the positive type are: 1)You are always going to get a straight answer from ChrWright, and he will usually back up what he says with a helpful link. 2)You are always going to get an "interesting" one-liner from 480 Sparky who has a very dry sense of humor that can be taken initially as an insult unless you read more of his posts and after awhile you realize he is pretty darn funny. However along with his posts are correct and useful information.

Warms, as someone with several posts, it would probably have more prudent for you to ask the OP's question as Built by Mac said above. You could have qualified the answers better and would have been taken more seriously.


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## Warmsmeallup (Apr 2, 2008)

Herein lies the problem. The issue is (still) NOT with the radiant system being utilized. If it were, I can assure you, he wouldn't have needed your advice. The problem he's having is structural and he was attempting to get some help from some experienced contractors.

All you guys talking about 'cutting his teeth' or 'if had any real ones he would...' speak like you're gods gift to contracting. A real man (or woman) contractor has no problem giving advice to to the young guys coming out. Holding on so tightly to your well earned knowledge only means it will die with you. You've accomplished so much and do nothing with it. Try offering your advice unfettered and make room for all the business that comes your way. Even the homeowners who wanted to do the job themselves will pay you handsomly to do the job because you've convinced them you can do it better through all your obvious experience over the next contractor with an attitude....but no work.

I talk to homeowners every day who want to do it themselves. "No problem. Let's talk.". We talk calmly, intelligently about how to do it. Giving them EVERY little detail. I also explain that this conversation is a one-shot deal. We can't spend all this time on the phone without getting some business from it. I give them so much information that they now understand that they are taking on a project that they would be much better served by me. SOLD! Every time. And I charge a premium price for it.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

I don't think anyone on here has a problem with giving advice to a proven new tradesperson. I think the problem is that too many posers for lack of a better term (h/o's pretending to be gc's, etc) come on here looking for the answer to very simple questions and it is almost a knee-jerk reaction to flame them for what they are doing.

I am not going to agree or disagree how your friends post was received (as I did not see or read it), but sometimes (like several on here admitted), in the course of weeding out the wannabe's, a few legit's get caught in the crossfire. Call it collateral damage if you will.

The moderator(s) did what they felt was necessary, maybe it was wrong, maybe it wasn't. I don't think it is our place to question what they are doing - and some of them were kind enough to even explain their course of action (ChrWright for example).

It seems you are going to unreasonable lengths to prove a point - but I still don't know what it is. The thread got closed, your friend didn't feel all warm and fuzzy inside...he'll get over it.

If he is that upset, I am sure he can pose his case to Nathan or a mod, and he can get back on the proverbial horse that is CT and try his luck again.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

I can't believe you're still griping about this. 

What is it exactly do you want us to do? Seeing that all of us here are wrong and you are right, let's get everyone else here into some therapy so you can be happy.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Warmsmeallup said:


> All you guys talking about 'cutting his teeth' or 'if had any real ones he would...' speak like you're gods gift to contracting. A real man (or woman) contractor has no problem giving advice to to the young guys coming out. Holding on so tightly to your well earned knowledge only means it will die with you.


 I don't have a problem with sharing my knowledge with anyone who asks for it. I don't think anyone on this site will argue against that fact. However, I have read the original post several times over and still don't grasp the concept of what the question really is. I believe that is why there were no helpful answers. If you want an intelligent answer, the question must be asked in a decipherable manner.
As for the hazing that goes on here, it is a rite of passage that we all have endured. The members here are all very helpful and knowledgable, but good advice is never free.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Why the hell does 75% of the threads on this forum seem to turn hostile? What is it with this place???!!!! Even some of the Mod's seem to bait a bad situation. lol

(I'm sure I'll be banded for my free thoughts) see ya folks!


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

jason w said:


> why the hell does 75% of the threads on this forum seem to turn hostile? What is it with this place???!!!! Even some of the mod's seem to bait a bad situation. Lol
> 
> (i'm sure i'll be banded for my free thoughts) see ya folks!


75%?


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## Warmsmeallup (Apr 2, 2008)

CookeCarpentry said:


> I don't think anyone on here has a problem with giving advice to a proven new tradesperson. I think the problem is that too many posers for lack of a better term (h/o's pretending to be gc's, etc) come on here looking for the answer to very simple questions and it is almost a knee-jerk reaction to flame them for what they are doing.
> 
> I am not going to agree or disagree how your friends post was received (as I did not see or read it), but sometimes (like several on here admitted), in the course of weeding out the wannabe's, a few legit's get caught in the crossfire. Call it collateral damage if you will.
> 
> ...


Yes, kudos to ChrWright for that. When I got home and found so many other posts, I got so tied up and fogot to give kudos to ChrWright for that.:notworthy 

And, you are right! He actually went on to other places, got his answer and purchased his materials from me today to do the job. So I'm just replying to other posts and ranting on far too long! It is a great way to relax though


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Jason W said:


> Why the hell does 75% of the threads on this forum seem to turn hostile? What is it with this place???!!!! Even some of the Mod's seem to bait a bad situation. lol
> 
> (I'm sure I'll be banded for my free thoughts) see ya folks!


After 3,000 posts you decide this isn't for you?:blink:


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

Free thoughts are fine ......... it is when you type them out that it can come back and bite you on the ass.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Warmsmeallup said:


> It is a great way to relax though


:drink: Try that next time! :thumbsup:


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

CookeCarpentry said:


> After 3,000 posts you decide this isn't for you?:blink:


I decided that months ago. I just stop by and see nothings changed from time to time.:laughing: and sometimes I speak up.............


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## Warmsmeallup (Apr 2, 2008)

loneframer said:


> The members here are all very helpful and knowledgable, but good advice is never free.


That's too bad. What is you feel you will loose offering it for 'free'?
(I'm dropping the Warms nick...you can call me... Dr. Phil )

(I tried to get out and they pulled me back in....")


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

hows that workin for ya ?


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Warmsmeallup said:


> ...I talk to homeowners every day who want to do it themselves. "No problem. Let's talk.". We talk calmly, intelligently about how to do it. Giving them EVERY little detail. I also explain that this conversation is a one-shot deal. We can't spend all this time on the phone without getting some business from it. I give them so much information that they now understand that they are taking on a project that they would be much better served by me. SOLD! Every time. And I charge a premium price for it...
> 
> ...So, you can keep your attitudes. I'll take the business to the bank. 320% over last year, so far.


 

Give me a huge break. You want to compare you selling your product to a contractor giving away their hard won knowledge for free? 

So in your case, you're helpful because you hope to covert them into paying clients... I've got no problem with that--but don't act like it qualifies you for saint-hood.

If you'll take the time to read the post history of those of us who've been around awhile--you'll find that help is given pretty freely around here, and most of us aren't selling anything. 

You made your point...Continuing to shake your finger and look down your nose is not helping your argument.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Warmsmeallup said:


> That's too bad. What is you feel you will loose offering it for 'free'?
> (I'm dropping the Warms nick...you can call me... Dr. Phil )
> 
> (I tried to get out and they pulled me back in....")


 Any relationship must be give and take to be healthy Dr. Phil, are you not aware of this? It is called reciprocation. One talks the other listens. Communication. If one does not understand the others needs, the other must reciprocate and express those needs. When communication breaks down, the relationship is doomed. Is any of this making sense? The OP did not communicate his needs well and the relationship fell apart. It's human nature, is it not?


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Wow... 938 views already... You'd think this was a handyman/licensing/permit thread. :laughing:


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Dr. Phil
It's your turn.
We can all see you are still on this thread watching!
Are you consulting with Oprah?


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)




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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

I will take a bunny with a pancake on it's head. I THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!:thumbup:


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

Warmsmeallup said:


> There was a recent posting here under the 'Remodeling' forum where the poster MGNICE15 requested information about installing a radiant heating system on top of a plywood subfloor where the plywood meets the metal door jam.
> 
> He was basically berated and treated as though he was something less than he was. Some even commented on his spelling errors and suggested schooling. (Like we all don't know a contractor with spelling issues.)
> 
> ...


Spell check is your friend :laughing:. BFD, MGNICE15 had to walk through some fire to earn his right of passage or quit. Happens to the best of us. What do you expect from a bunch of construction guys? Jeez.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

I think the point still is, if no one 
can understand the question,
no one can answer it.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

neolitic said:


> I think the point still is, if no one
> can understand the question,
> no one can answer it.



.....but that does not stop us from trying :thumbsup:


The OP had no interrogatives, just declarations ~ and here we are 4 pages later:whistling


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Celtic said:


> .....but that does not stop us from trying :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> The OP had no interrogatives, just declarations ~ and here we are 4 pages later:whistling


Can you imagine what would
happen to Socrates today?
Ask the guy a question and he
just asks one back.
How cruel and uncaring, trying to make 
people think about their own questions. :whistling


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

neolitic said:


> Can you imagine what would
> happen to Socrates today?
> Ask the guy a question and he
> just asks one back.
> ...


Yea...who does this Socrates dude think he is any way?


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Celtic said:


> Yea...who does this Socrates dude think he is any way?


:laughing:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

neolitic said:


> Can you imagine what would
> happen to Socrates today?
> Ask the guy a question and he
> just asks one back.
> ...


 What? Are you implying something? Would you care to elaborate?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

neolitic said:


> Can you imagine what would
> happen to Socrates today?
> *Ask the guy a question and he
> just asks one back.*
> ...





loneframer said:


> What?
> Are you implying something?
> Would you care to elaborate?



Dam pineys can't count.

:laughing:


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## Darwin (Apr 7, 2009)

neolitic said:


> Can you imagine what would
> happen to Socrates today?
> Ask the guy a question and he
> just asks one back.
> ...


He he! think about their own questions...



That's what you call "Ancient Jedi Mind Trick!":arabia:



My Wifey pulls them on me all the time!! hah hah!

---


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

Celtic said:


> I know I was ecstatic when the plumbing I DIY'ed didn't flood my house....but then again, I'm not a plumber.


In my area it's a D felony if you are caught plumbing with out a license...

...I have a thought on this; maybe, just maybe, no one responding to his thread was actually capable of helping him with his question. If that's the case, then perhaps he should consider himself lucky he wasn't given any jack-leg advice.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Dam pineys can't count.
> 
> :laughing:


 Ain't nothin' finer than a literate piner.:thumbup:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Hoof Hearted said:


> In my area it's a D felony if you are caught plumbing with out a license...


Fascinating !

...and where might "my area" be?


Here in NJ, I am legally able to pull my own permit for plumbing ~ the home owner permit.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

loneframer said:


> Ain't nothin' finer than a literate piner.:thumbup:


:laughing:

:thumbsup:


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## datajam (Jul 4, 2009)

What most of you fail to recognize . . . is that instead of doing the polite thing and helping someone resolve their issue a number of you tend to act like a bunch of jerks. Do you really think that people come to this web site to be ridiculed or talked down to? 

Some of you simply need step down from your high-horses and remember that you really are not "all that," you just think you are. You can "bust a guys chops" on the work site because he can hear the tone of your voice and know wether you are trying to be a "dichead" or not. You cannot do such on a web site until the level of your idiocy is know by others without causing offense.

datajam


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

datajam said:


> What most of you fail to recognize . . . is that instead of doing the polite thing and helping someone resolve their issue a number of you tend to act like a bunch of jerks. Do you really think that people come to this web site to be ridiculed or talked down to?
> 
> Some of you simply need step down from your high-horses and remember that you really are not "all that," you just think you are. You can "bust a guys chops" on the work site because he can hear the tone of your voice and know wether you are trying to be a "dichead" or not. You cannot do such on a web site until the level of your idiocy is know by others without causing offense.
> 
> datajam


This is the type of post that gets the heat turned up in this little E-world of ours. 

If you have a beef with anyone in specific, let him know how you feel in PM.

If you feel that anyone has posted something offensive that needs some moderation, then hit the button and let us know.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

:w00t:


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

Can we get a "flag all posts" button?


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

mics_54 said:


> Can we get a "flag all posts" button?


Yeah, it's the little red "X" in the top right corner of your screen. :whistling


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

:laughing:


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> Yeah, it's the little red "X" in the top right corner of your screen. :whistling


you sure it's not the zero on your forhead?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)




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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

You boys are funny.:laughing:

Much more fun to chuckle than frown.:thumbsup:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

datajam said:


> What most of you fail to recognize . . . is that instead of doing the polite thing and helping someone resolve their issue a number of you tend to act like a bunch of jerks. Do you really think that people come to this web site to be ridiculed or talked down to?
> 
> Some of you simply need step down from your high-horses and remember that you really are not "all that," you just think you are. You can "bust a guys chops" on the work site because he can hear the tone of your voice and know wether you are trying to be a "dichead" or not. You cannot do such on a web site until the level of your idiocy is know by others without causing offense.
> 
> datajam


Sometimes the first issue they need
to resolve is framing a question in 
a manner that someone else can understand.
If they are worth their powder, they might
just wonder if the request was really very well
thought out to begin with.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Are there any "Sensitivity Training" Articles available?



Can I get an AMEN!


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## Meetre (Nov 2, 2007)

AMEN!!


just for you Celtic


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