# Whats with Architects and over hangs?



## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

For some reason Architects love to put over hangs were they should not be. Ok I can see the dinning room thing with bay windows...great no body goes in there for the most part except for 2 days a year....yeah..looks nice..fine leave it at that. 
But for whatever reason these guys see a bathroom.....OK lets have an over hang and I want to put a tub there.......?????
I came from a guys house that had I guess at least a 1' 1/2 over hang on his second floor...and guess were the bathrooms were.
In one bath he put the shower right in the over hang, the other he put the whole tub in the overhang.
The HO didn't know it was leaking until one day he went out his back door...right after someone had taken a shower..and he got rained on from his sofet.
I went in and looked at this...the shower, didn't look to bad, but the tub...if you stood in it..you could feel it was not level.
The tape was either split or pulling off the wall to ceiling area. Just bad all around.
I pulled the bottom of the sofet area off and got hit with soaked insulation.
The shower and tub had no sealent left in the drain. I assume plumbers putty was used...I did not see anything at all around the drains..that was left anyway.
I just did a quick fix..left the sofet open for a week to dry things out. used silicone sealent on the drains..which solved the problem..for now,
put in new insulation and put the sofet back.
This is a friends house..I did not charge him....I got paid in single malt Scotch.....3 bottles worth..LOL....but told him this is going to happen again.
This had to meet code.(somebody approved these plans)..I didn't measure the beams or braceing...but seemed at the time just iballing it, it was good. Heck when your not getting paid.....
But the point is...why do this?????......just because it might look nice????..........I don't get it???????


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

I don't see an architectural issue here, a cantilevered floor is perfectly accepable. I see an issue with bad plumbing, the two are not causally connected are they? In fact, the overhang probably stopped the poor plumbing from causing even more damage in the house, not to mention is a great deal easier to fix. Why didn't you fix the plumbing properly? Just my thoughts...


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

I could see frozen traps being a problem in a cantilever. We're allowed to do running traps here, still if there was a back-up I could see a problem. 

I've had a property for 20+ years with 8 running traps out of the cantilevers. So far so good. Knock knock.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Well some how I don't think useing a silcon based sealent is any worse then useing plumbers putty.....(I could have , but thought the silicon would have more flex to it)there was nothing wrong with the plumbing job,....except for the fact it was over the over hang....
Which in the one bathroom...seemed to to have a tilt to it.(if you stood in the tub)...which is why the tape on the walls was either spliting or coming off.
Bottom line is this would not have happened if this was NOT an overhang.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Project53 said:


> Well some how I don't think useing a silcon based sealent is any worse then useing plumbers putty.....(I could have , but thought the silicon would have more flex to it)there was nothing wrong with the plumbing job,....except for the fact it was over the over hang....
> Which in the one bathroom...seemed to to have a tilt to it.(if you stood in the tub)...which is why the tape on the walls was either spliting or coming off.
> Bottom line is this would not have happened if this was NOT an overhang.


 I respectfully disagree.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Rob...what are you dissagering with?.....the silicon or the over hang?


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Project53 said:


> For some reason Architects love to put over hangs were they should not be. Ok I can see the dinning room thing with bay windows...great no body goes in there for the most part except for 2 days a year....yeah..looks nice..fine leave it at that.
> But for whatever reason these guys see a bathroom.....OK lets have an over hang and I want to put a tub there.......?????
> I came from a guys house that had I guess at least a 1' 1/2 over hang on his second floor...and guess were the bathrooms were.
> In one bath he put the shower right in the over hang, the other he put the whole tub in the overhang.
> ...




First of all it's a cantilever and what does having a cantilever have to do with plumbing leaks? Overhangs are the fascia and soffit. I was confused with the title of your thread.

I frame houses and additions all the time with cantilevers and Jacuzzis going in them. If they're done right you won’t have problems.

Are you saying that the cantilevers were framed wrong and they’re tilting out of level?

Still what does the cantilever have to do with plumbing leaks?

As far as being cold and pipes freezing , yes the cantilever is past the house but the soffit has to be insulated right and you won’t have problems.

This type of building is done every day by competent builders and without having any problems. Unfortunately your friend’s house was built by an incompetent builder.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Project53 said:


> Rob...what are you dissagering with?.....the silicon or the over hang?


I would say that cantilevers are not much of a problem when done properly. I've done a gazillion of them and have owned a few for many years. That would not be on my list of things I would do/build differently. 

I do however have a list of things I would do/build differently if I got to go back 30 years. Another thread or forum.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

> As far as being cold and pipes freezing , yes the cantilever is past the house but the soffit has to be insulated right and you won’t have problems.


 Joe, insulating a trap in a 9.5 joist space to handle minus 30 degrees is difficult. I agree with everything else you said.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

OK..lets not everyone have a cow here.... this house was designed and built within town codes.....ETC:
But the bottom line here is this bathroom...with the bathtub sitting in the kick out.....is not great...........it was leaking.....why..because the wonderful kick out...kind of saged ...yes it's within code.....plumbing was fine.......
My point was why do these desiners....love to put plumbing and what ever on these kickouts?...to me it's just asking for trouble down the line.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

If architecture's only concern was simplicity, all buildings would look like this:













I'm glad it isn't so we can have stuff like this.










I think your buddies house falls somewhere in the middle.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Project53 said:


> OK..lets not everyone have a cow here.... this house was designed and built within town codes.....ETC:
> But the bottom line here is this bathroom...with the bathtub sitting in the kick out.....is not great...........it was leaking.....why..because the wonderful kick out...kind of saged ...yes it's within code.....plumbing was fine.......
> My point was why do these desiners....love to put plumbing and what ever on these kickouts?...to me it's just asking for trouble down the line.


If the cantilever sagged, then it wasn't framed right from the start. If it was framed right there would be no sag and you wouldn’t have any leaks.

I can't see not desiging something because there might be a chance the framer didn't frame it right. Sometimes the bathroom isn't big enough for some reason and cantilevering the room adds space.

Also, there might not have bee any choice to put the plumbing on the outside wall. If it’s done right you wont have trouble in the long run.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Joe, 

Everytime I see your name on here I keep thinking you are this guy









and since this Corolla likes construction too, I keep thinking he has found this site and just wants to hang out with us.:laughing:


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

OK, Joe..so who's at fault here????
The plans were approvered by the town, and the inspector had no problem...so then the Achitect/engineer......????????


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Project53 said:


> OK, Joe..so who's at fault here????
> The plans were approvered by the town, and the inspector had no problem...so then the Achitect/engineer......????????


All of them!!!

You’re talking as if you've seen many houses that have these problems, have you, or was it this one incident? If you have a cantilever that is sagging, then obviously is wasn't designed right from the start and was approved and shouldn’t have been approved. 

I've framed tons of cantilevers before and still frame them and NEVER have problems, it's that simple.

You talking as if they can't be framed right and you'll always have a problem. That's simple not true. I’m a Framing Contractor and I have to build it right. I’ve been in houses that I’ve framed 15 and 20 years ago with cantilevers and no problems. I never frame a cantilever they way I here people framing them.

People say that if your cantilever sticks out 2’, then you come in 4’. I just don’t do that and only did that once. I will go back to the closet bearing wall. I could care less about what it cost to buy longer joists. I just don’t believe that framing them that way is a good way to do it.

If I see at set of plans with it drawn that way, I will call the Architect up and ask him if I can go back to the next wall. So far no one has said no. They will make the change on the plan. I can’t.


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## BuiltByMAC (Mar 11, 2006)

Project53 said:


> OK, Joe..so who's at fault here????
> The plans were approvered by the town, and the inspector had no problem...so then the Achitect/engineer......????????


You're starting to get vehement here with the amount of puncuation marks...

Obviously, you've got a problem with some archy but you can't reasonably use that argument to say that all archys suck.

if you're looking for someone to blame, listen to these framers here - Blame the framer who didn't build the cantilever correctly.

Mac


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

My beef with the acrchitects are the cut up, 12/12 roofs that are for looks, not function....like a home with 2600 sq/ft but may have a roof with 70 squares and a dozen hips and valleys. But it is what people want, so my taste and their home doesn't quite go together. 

There can be "design" issues with any home, and as the improperly framed kick out with the bathtub illustrates, not all framers are qualified for all types of construction. There is a big leap in experience needed when you go from a ranch type home to a split level or 2 story with features.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Project53,

I just want to add that the last two cantilevers that I framed for where there was a Jacuzzi, I used 3-1/2" x 9-1/2" LVL's on both ends that went back to the bearing wall. The joists in between also went back to the bearing wall. They both were about 7' wide.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Joe, I'm not saying It can't be done right. These plans were approved and I'm sure the framers did just what was on the blueprint. But 16 years later, thats what you end up with.
I was just grousing about how some architects like to do things just because they think it looks cool. Has nothing to do with form or funtion as Joasis said. I have nothing against cantilevers, I think they ad a lot of good design to a house. Put them in the Dinning, living, breakfest area. But to throw a bath and shower in an over hang, when there was no real reason to do it. Just because it looks cool. To me that just dosen't make a lot of sence...but thats just my thinking on it.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Project53 said:


> Joe, I'm not saying It can't be done right. These plans were approved and I'm sure the framers did just what was on the blueprint. But 16 years later, thats what you end up with.
> I was just grousing about how some architects like to do things just because they think it looks cool. Has nothing to do with form or funtion as Joasis said. I have nothing against cantilevers, I think they ad a lot of good design to a house. Put them in the Dinning, living, breakfest area. But to throw a bath and shower in an over hang, when there was no real reason to do it. Just because it looks cool. To me that just dosen't make a lot of sence...but thats just my thinking on it.


To be honest with you, I love framing crazy roofs and that are all cut up. Sometimes you get a roof with 4-5 different pitches and the same fascia lines and overhangs. That makes it more interesting. I know they draw things up sometimes that don't make sense and actually don't even work, especially with roof lines.

I base everything when I se a set of plans from every house or addition I’ve framed over the years. If I see something on the plans that doesn’t make sense to me , I will call the Architect up the next day before I even bid the job and question it.

Some framers like you said will just frame whatever is on the plans and not even give it a second thought, which makes no sense even if the plans are wrong. Architects are human and make mistakes just like I do and everyone else does. Questioning them can only prevent a big problem.

I was talking to a builder one day and he was complaining and he was telling me that his framer was complaining about the Architect on a 5000 s/f house he built. He said that his framer had to frame the roof three times before it worked because the Architect didn’t draw the plans right.

I said to him that his framer is to blame also because he should’ve known that the roof line wasn’t going to work before he even framed it and realized that the way the roof was designed that the bathroom wall wasn’t going to be 8’ like the plans said and wound up being 4’. If the framer calculated the rafters and the rise before he cut the roof he would’ve realized it first before wasting all the time framing the roof.

He should’ve realized it as soon as he put the first rafter in instead of saying, “well I followed the plans” and blaming the Architect.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> Joe,
> 
> Everytime I see your name on here I keep thinking you are this guy
> 
> ...


Maybe he drives a Toyota Corolla like I did for my first car. Did I ever get my chops busted on that....:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## troubleseeker (Sep 24, 2006)

So what does the fact of a cantiliver have to do with poor plumbing installation? Personally , I'd rather have a plumbing leak here than through a finished ceiling inside. Maybe the same problem with the drywall, poor installation; perhaps poor job on bedding the tape or too big a gap in the corner for tape to bridge, causing it to tear when the floor joists shrank. I have to assume that if the project was designed by an architect and stamped by a structural engineer, the cantiliver was strong enough.A tub full of water could cause some flex if the inside end of the cantilivered floor joists were not sufficiently anchored to the floor beam they butt into , but problems with such a short cantiliver sounds like a sloppy framing job (Cantilivered joists simply nailed to beam with no metal strapping so that everything was depending on the shear strength of the nails). The thing that would concern me the most was being able to freeze proof the traps in a cold climate.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Well trouble..I didn't see the plumbing job as being bad. I "think" that after X number of years of flexing on this cantilever that the drain sealent..which "could" (I don't know)have been plumbers putty was basically just washed away. but your point about basically having your plumbing kind of hanging out in the "breeze" sort of speak, is another reason I see no need to do this kind of thing. Just because some design/architect guy thinks it looks cool. If this house was in MA. lets say, the guys pipes would all have been frozen and burst, a real big mess. If the tub and plumbing were within the structure of the house, I doubt there would have been any problem at all. Just because you CAN throw a tub on a cantilever. At the stroke of a pen..dosen't mean that it's a good idea. But once again..this is just my thinking on this.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Project53;145204If this house was in MA. lets say said:


> Why would they be frozen in MA if the cantilever was done right? I’m sure MA can design it where they won’t freeze. I'm in NJ and it's just as cold here as it is there. There are many houses down the shore areas on the ocean with no foundation and are on pilings. They're all designed to accept the cold with no problems.
> 
> There's also many additions built on piers with no foundations. If they can be built right and properly insulated, then a small cantilever can be built right and pipes won’t freeze.
> 
> ...


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Plumbers putty is a linseed oil based product. I've never known it to 'freeze', as it is considered a solid at room temperature according to its MSDS. It is also insoluble in water, so, if you found no putty, I can only assume none was used. 

Sounds like whomever installed the tub screwed the pooch.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Project53 said:


> Well trouble..I didn't see the plumbing job as being bad. I "think" that after X number of years of flexing on this cantilever that the drain sealent..which "could" (I don't know)have been plumbers putty was basically just washed away. but your point about basically having your plumbing kind of hanging out in the "breeze" sort of speak, is another reason I see no need to do this kind of thing.


How much flexing could this cantilever have to do this and cause leaks?


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Project53 said:


> Well trouble..I didn't see the plumbing job as being bad. I "think" that after X number of years of flexing on this cantilever that the drain sealent..which "could" (I don't know)have been plumbers putty was basically just washed away. but your point about basically having your plumbing kind of hanging out in the "breeze" sort of speak, is another reason I see no need to do this kind of thing.


How much flexing could this cantilever have to do this and cause leaks?

If that's the case your friend has structural issues that needs to be taken care of.


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## skylands (Dec 10, 2005)

I agree with Joe all the way here. I built in norhtwest NJ for 20 years. Now I'm up in the middle of NY state. I have no problems or issues with cantilivers, building on piers, or bathrooms over garages. I'm hard pressed to believe that a 2 foot cantiliver could flex enough to effect a properly installed plumbing trap. Any carpenter over 50 has worked on houses that had 4 to 8 inch sags that still had no plumbing leaks so my guess is that whatever is going on with project53's friend has nothing to do with an architect.


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## supercrew (May 15, 2006)

skylands said:


> Any carpenter over 50 has worked on houses that had 4 to 8 inch sags


just scary


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

OK this is getting stupid...if you have something that is flexing for X anmount of years....with putty..then yeh I can see it may be just washed away.....
Joe Im sure your can do any cantillever.....and it works great......
And I'm sure you do it right.
If you really think that the climate is the same from NJ on the ocean....to MA....is just wrong.
I lived in CT right on the border of MA....and man let men tell you the weather there sucks.......
Cars just stop...because they did't put the amount of dray gas in there.....
And NOBOBY puts there bathrooms on a "kick out" / cantiliver


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

The only place I'm aware of that plumber's putty is used on a tub installation is between the drain assembly and the tub. This got 'washed away' due to the movement of the floor? I've certainly seen them leak at this point, but it never occurred to me it was the floor moving that caused it. Maybe I've been missing some floor re-frame jobs. :whistling Rich.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Project53 said:


> If you really think that the climate is the same from NJ on the ocean....to MA....is just wrong.
> I lived in CT right on the border of MA....and man let men tell you the weather there sucks.......
> Cars just stop...because they did't put the amount of dray gas in there.....
> And NOBOBY puts there bathrooms on a "kick out" / cantiliver


I lived in MA and lCape Cod, and lived in NJ my whole life. I do know what I'm talking about. It isn't any colder, just a little more wind, that's all. Have you lived in NJ to make a comparison, if not then your wrong.


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## clampman (Feb 25, 2006)

Hey Mike,

I don't see any cantilever on this place.

Pretty nice though. That one of your jobs?

I don't like most cantilevers either, but primaritly from an aesthetic standpoint. Seems to me most of the ones I see look like they were done to increase upstairs floor space while saving almost exactly 1 yd of concrete, 4 studs and 120 sq ft of flooring etc. downstairs, a little siding and so no. I just don't like the looks of them, but most of the ones I've seen were not custom designed by architects either.

Like Joe says though, you can certainly make them work, and for a long time too. But from my point of view, it's one of those designs where for the most part the juice just don't seem like it's worth the squeezing.

I also still like all my plumbing in inside walls whether in Maine, Colorado or Florida.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Thanks Clamp...I just don't like them in bathrooms, and I see no reason to have plumbing hanging in the sofet. This is not some custom made millon dollor house. It's in a developement that had like 15 different builders, building houses. Never said they could not be done right.
But the architect who designed it, did he really think about the weight of the tub, full of water?...Guess not since it saged. Did the framers who built it say anything..gee guess not. Did the plumber do anything wrong? Don't really know, can't really just point a finger at him. So is this just a comedy of errors? Maybe. Can this happen again? Well if we lived in a perfect world, I'd like to say NO.....but the REAL answer is YES. Another reason I don't like Tubs on cantilevers.
The bottom line here is $$$ and always is. I've seen guys pile up used circular saw blades at least 2"1/2 thick to make the flooring beam sit level in the beam pocket. Does it work, yeah, somebody ok'ed it. Does it look like crap...sure dose. Just what I like to see in my basement, nice sharp blades sticking out of my beam pocket.
Do these builders throw down tile, right on top of OSB subflooring? Yes they do, and run it from the foyer all thru the kitchen like that.
Could I find a sheet of plywood in these developments...not likely.
Do all builders, build like this...NO...but there getting few and far between. The sad but true fact is it all comes down to $$$.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Joe ..to be honest with you...you could be the best framing contractor on the east coast....for that matter the USA...but that dosen't mean that Joe Blow Builder that hired ABC frameing contractor....would do what you do. They have a signed and sealed print...thats what they build. Most contractors build TODAY anyway..at min..code specs. If they could slapsome 2x8's as a main support beam and it meets code...thats what they do. Long gone are the days of over building anything.
There is no way some Builder is going to use plywood when I can get OSB for 10+ dollors less a sheet....
Do these buyers have a clue as to how the house is built?.....NO...90% don't have any idea. Do they know that there getting 25year shingles that cost the guy maybe $30 a square rather then the 30 year good stuff that cost him maybe $65 a square....NO of course not.
The only people who might know any of this, have to be in the trade....
and then if you start throwing "specs" at a builder...then the house cost goes up.......
So bottom line.......yeah this is why I don't like cantilevers with a tub.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Joe..just to xpand on your thinking...yes I have lived in NJ and CT...
In Toms River and right out side Hartford CT..by the MA border.
If you really think that the weather is the same...from inland CT..VS NJ on the coast.....well then..you just really don't have a clue. Being by the ocean...has a moderate thing going on.....the temps don't go wild..nor dose the snow or anything else. Ct can have raging Ice storms and 3 feet of snow...and NJ on the coast can have nothing.
So yeah..I know what i'm talking about........so yeah..I KNOW what I'm talking about.....


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Project53 said:


> Joe..just to xpand on your thinking...yes I have lived in NJ and CT...
> In Toms River and right out side Hartford CT..by the MA border.
> If you really think that the weather is the same...from inland CT..VS NJ on the coast.....well then..you just really don't have a clue. Being by the ocean...has a moderate thing going on.....the temps don't go wild..nor dose the snow or anything else. Ct can have raging Ice storms and 3 feet of snow...and NJ on the coast can have nothing.
> So yeah..I know what i'm talking about........so yeah..I KNOW what I'm talking about.....



Can't let it go now, can you? I thought this was done? 

You sure you know what your talking about?? Can you reapeat it again??

So you think that you have a clue about wheather, that's good, but you sure don't have a clue as to building cantilevers with plumbing in them and working right without any problems.

I don't live near the ocean. I'm 80 miles North of Tom's River.

Regardless of what you say who's colder or not, where I live it gets down to 0° all the time and we get plenty of snow, 2' and more.

Yet we still build cantilevers and put Jacuzzis in them and have NO PROBLEMS because they're done right!

It's not my problem that you say that your builders build the cheapest way. The jobs I do and the Builders and GC's I work for don't do that, we do it right the first time so that cantilevers don't tilt down and break plumbing and cause leaks.

Just because you don't like cantilevers with plumbing or Jacuzzis in them because you claim your builders or whoever can't do them right, doesn't mean that they shouldn't get done or there are no builders or GC's out there that can do it right.
I still find it hard to believe that your friends cantilever tilted so much that it causes leaks. If that's the case your friend has much bigger problems on his hands and they should be addressed immediately.

So, where else do you want to go with this?


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## supercrew (May 15, 2006)

here in the midwest cantilevers seem to be a must in almost all house designs. i just moved and theres a newly built subdivision nex door and the 2 story that sits out my side yard is approx 60ft at the backwall. starting on the left its sporting a 10-12' long x 2' cantilever with a shed roof gabled ends, about 1' starts a 6-8' bay,2 side windows 1 door, then another 1' gets you another 10-12' bay with 2 single 1 double windows, all on the first level with 1 single window in each corner on the 2nd level. it also has 1 10-12'x 2' cantilever on opposite ends of the house on each level on the side of the house, which is a 2 story gable and the bumpouts have sheds. it is absolutly astounding. dont know if they have any plumbing ran into them but im thinking of checking out the display. it has at least 2 bumpouts per gable end...i see if i can get any pics

from my computer/birds room


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

LMAO...Joe...I never said you were wrong...and I'm sure you can build Cantilevers all day long and they work great. I..and this is just me..I don't like them when plumbing is out there. Thats all the original post was about.
Yes this has to do with me having a problem with Architects....and having had to deal with some of the biggest firms in NYC. When I can't get a floor plan with a simple number layout for offices and cubicals...after I told them ten times...and I finally have to just label everything myself and say here....copy this for the next ten floors.
Plus then I have to redesign rooms...cause they just didn't get it...yeah...I'm not real fond of Architects...and there designs....
My point was ..just because these people design something ..dosen't mean it's always right.
That being said...yes anything can be built right....and lets just leave it at that..........


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Project53 said:


> just because these people design something ..dosen't mean it's always right.


I've heard people say this same thing before and all I have to say to that is, "It doesn't mean that it's wrong either".

Peace!


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