# Handyman work: Too many estimates to do, is there a better way?



## Kingstud

Doing estimates has become a bottleneck for my business and I'm thinking about another way to handle them.
This is one of my growing pains, when I was just doing handyman work in my off season it was almost all T&M, my customers knew and trusted me to be fair.
But since then I have approached this as a real business and am generating a lot of interest, I get about 2 call's a day from potential clients.

I go out look at the job, sometimes spending 2 hrs with the client talking about their needs and doing takeoffs. Part of this is building value and rapport so they have decided they're hiring me before they ever get my price.
So then I go spend another 2 hrs preparing an estimate. The jobs I do are all over the board, it's not like I'm pricing for one trade usually. Every time I shoot from the hip I loose.
And all for a job that's usually only a day or 2, sometimes 1 week.

I was looking at mr.handyman.com and it looks like they don't provide estimates at all. 

Is there a better way or do I just need to get better at calling on the spot?


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## griz

Learn to screen your clients. Weed out the tire kickers fast...:thumbup:

2 hours for a 1 day job...:laughing:

Cut the BS and get to the chase...:no::whistling

If you can't figure out what they want in 10-15 minutes, cut your losses and move on...:thumbsup:


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## TheItalian204

I agree with above...If I spent 2 hours on every customer I would not have time to do the work...

You gotta persuade your customer (or maybe yourself in the beginning) that your time is precious.

At least factor all this free hours into cost...otherwise its almost slavery.


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## Rio

Think about charging them a token amount that will be applied to the job if you get it to help cover some of your costs running around, maybe $25-$50............ That will weed out tire kickers real quick.


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## world llc

i agree with the charge for estimate... not too much not too little... enough to stear away thoes just looking for a price.


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## Kingstud

Today is a perfect example, small cottage looks like their contractor quit or got fired. 1/2 bath is partially rocked, plumb is stubbed, they want it finished eg. tape and texture, paint, light fixtures, toilet, sink etc . kitchen tiles need to be repaired where a wall was torn out, baseboard, door and window trim randomly missing, New MBath is finished but holidays in grout, heavy glass enclosure is ripping out of the wall and broken tile. no threshold transitions anywhere, missing details everywhere. She had a 3 page list, that was not even specific details. 

So after her pointing out everything, I had to make my own list, count the missing doorknobs, LF of baseboard and missing crown, figure out how I was going to remove the chimney etc. All of it is small jobs with exception of the tiny 1/2 bath.
Now I gotta write it up and figure it out, when what I really want to say is "look you've got a lot of random stuff, I'll do it T&M or I'll have to charge you 6 hrs more just to figure this mess out"


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## TheItalian204

Kingstud said:


> Today is a perfect example, small cottage
> Now I gotta write it up and figure it out, when what I really want to say is "look you've got a lot of random stuff, I'll do it T&M or I'll have to charge you 6 hrs more just to figure this mess out"


I would not even say that...Just add extra six to your quote...Most of contractors with experience (which I am sure you do have) have a pretty good idea from looking at job how much they want to charge...Thats how I roll...I take a look at the job,get home,re-calculate everything and I am usually 5% over/under my rough guess,rarely 10%...

IF you dont have too big of an overhead it makes it even easier for you.

I would also suggest you spend couple of days pricing out everything in every trade you think/know you can do properly and can offer to market,get market rates and figure out where you stand as to what you want to charge customer.

Having sheet with your pricings all ready for you at your home/office will make your life so much more easier.


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## CompleteW&D

TheItalian204 said:


> I would not even say that...Just add extra six to your quote...Most of contractors with experience (which I am sure you do have) have a pretty good idea from looking at job how much they want to charge...Thats how I roll...I take a look at the job,get home,re-calculate everything and I am usually 5% over/under my rough guess,rarely 10%...
> 
> IF you dont have too big of an overhead it makes it even easier for you.
> 
> *I would also suggest you spend couple of days pricing out everything in every trade you think/know you can do properly and can offer to market,get market rates and figure out where you stand as to what you want to charge customer.*
> 
> Having sheet with your pricings all ready for you at your home/office will make your life so much more easier.


This is an excellent idea. It's going to seem like a MONSTER project at first. But every night spend 30 minutes and create a pricing structure for everything you do that isn't right at the top of your head. You won't be able to cover everything or situation of course, but by just creating a starting point and referring back to it a few times, more and more of a pricing structure will be instantly recallable and speed up your quotes.

I would also suggest that you schedule your estimates on a single day like Saturday. That way, you can concentrate on getting your work done on a daily basis and not be bothered with pulling off a job to do a quote. Be firm on that unless it's one you can hit on your way home.


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## Warren

CompleteW&D said:


> This is an excellent idea. It's going to seem like a MONSTER project at first. But every night spend 30 minutes and create a pricing structure for everything you do that isn't right at the top of your head. You won't be able to cover everything or situation of course, but by just creating a starting point and referring back to it a few times, more and more of a pricing structure will be instantly recallable and speed up your quotes.
> 
> I would also suggest that you schedule your estimates on a single day like Saturday. That way, you can concentrate on getting your work done on a daily basis and not be bothered with pulling off a job to do a quote. Be firm on that unless it's one you can hit on your way home.


I like this. If I went this route, I would probably advertise free estimates on Saturday. This would let you charge for them during the week when it is inconvenient.


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## DamionR

if it's profitable in the approach you're using, I wouldn't recommend getting rid of the "tire kickers".

Instead, it sounds like you're ready to hire a full-time sales person to handle this part of the business with you!!!


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## carolinahandyma

Spending time with a prospective customer is not a bad thing. As building new relationships is key to your long-term success.

Try spending more time on the phone rather than running right out to see them in-person. Over time you will develop a knack for weeding out people that were probably never going to buy from you in the first place.

Examine your past jobs (both profitable and unprofitable) and come up with standard pricing on everything you do. That way estimating will become more efficient.

Good luck to you! Having a lot of estimates to deliver is a good thing!


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## Jason Abbott

For the small 1-2 day or less jobs I tend to ask that they email a detailed list and/or photos of what they want done, (so I have their email address :thumbsup and then I email them back with a best guess number (a little on the high side) letting them know that it is really just a guess since I haven't seen it in person, and then let them decide from there. Some people never call back, some call right back and tell me that they would like to move forward, and some call me months later out of the blue and say "we're ready to start, when can you come?" This approach saves fuel and time, and allows you to show your professionalism in the way you correspond. You can also add your website or links to any videos you have posted to your email signature. Then, if they just got your number from someone, the idea that they should hire you will be reinforced in their minds, even if they don't hire you right then for that particular job. I do this all the time and actually get recommendations from people I've never even done work for, just from corresponding professionally. Of course you will still have to visit sites and prepare proposals, but when you do the cards will be stacked in your favor.

That brings me to another point. Your website was easily found searching for Sonoma Handyman, which is awesome. I really like it, great pictures and text with a little humor and a humble tone. It couldn't be better in that regard. But the fact that it is so easy to find makes you a sitting duck for getting popped by the CLSB if you are doing those types of projects without a license. They popped 12 guys in Sonoma earlier this year in a sting, and they plan to do more. They are under a lot of pressure from licensed guys who are sick of paying fees and insurance, and losing work to folks who aren't. Not a lecture by any means, I did the same thing for too long and was looking over my shoulder the whole time. Not fun. After I got licensed I kept the handyman thing going and business really picked up, from commercial clients and really high end homeowners.

Just food for thought, and I wish you all the best. It looks like you do really nice work.


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## rselectric1

Warren said:


> I like this. If I went this route, I would probably advertise free estimates on Saturday. This would let you charge for them during the week when it is inconvenient.


HMMMMMM-Interesting! Me likey this idea!:thumbsup:


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## Anderson

You have to do estimates its part of the job. For lots of small items I dont always do T&M. Its easier for me, and they alwasy add stuff by the time I get there. 
On the bigger stuff make sure and add in plenty of margin I have what I would say to be a large make up because I always miss something. The most important thing like you said is that they have already choosen you before they get the number. So just make it high enough to cover yourself.


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## Tdawg

I tell them it's T&M for anything under $2k, regardless if it's one job or 50 little things. If it sounds on the phone like it will exceed that, then I tell them I will come out and quote.


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## Kingstud

Lots of great advice, sometimes I think I'm alone in this and it's encouraging to know you guy's are here with experience and understanding.

My wife doesn't get it, my friends don't get it, my buddy works at an auto shop and thinks estimating is easy, its all in his computer. 

Its not so much that I'm providing a budget and not getting the work. It's that I have work to do already and feel I invest too much time and don't have a fast enough turn around. I know it needs to get done so I have work lined up 2 wks from now. I need to streamline the process.
Like just give prices for 1/4, 1/2 day and full day of labor.

I could hire someone to free up my time, I would like nothing more than to hire a couple of guys but every time I do its not 3 guys working its 2 guys working and me helping them and getting less done than if I just did it myself! Besides doing the work is the part I enjoy. I hate doing the office stuff.

It would be another story if it were new construction or an addition or even a remodel where I was gutting everything and starting over. But that's not my niche, my unofficial motto is "I do the jobs no one else wants". 

I have a spreadsheet with pricing (cost, hrs etc) for almost everything I can think of by sqf and lf. Thats something I remember from my days as an estimator using the Lee Sayler books. But I seem to run into so many random jobs, once in awhile I get to do 1200 LF of baseboard in a commercial building and I can go by a LF price but most of the time its 2' there, 6' here, 4' on masonry wall over there. where you cant just go by a price that's based on 500Lf. 

Having 1 day for meeting customers is a great idea, sure there might be exceptions. I think its easier to get a customer that wants a $10k remodel (which I don't do) to meet you friday afternoon but getting someone to take time from work to get there rotten deck boards replaced might be harder.
FREE saturdays!!:thumbup:

But then again when I call an appliance repair or AC guy they are not that accommodating either.

Carolina- I agree, I live in a small town and its all about long term relationships. You have to have referrals and repeat. As far as phone goes I really feel like I sell myself better in person, maybe its my good look's but most people seem to like my laid back, good ol boy style.
I'm like comfort food. 
Altho I did have one lady become furious when I told her "what you see is what you get" referring to my lack of pretense. Looking back that was one of my best client screenings ever 

Jason- I like the email idea too, efficient and convenient for both parties. 
thanks for the compliments on website and work, I always do my best to provide quality within my clients budget. "Quality is just a question of money, how much quality do you want?" lol

Anderson- you do or dont always T&M small stuff?

Tdawg- I like your style!


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## FrehouseRemdlin

TheItalian204 said:


> I would not even say that...Just add extra six to your quote...Most of contractors with experience (which I am sure you do have) have a pretty good idea from looking at job how much they want to charge...Thats how I roll...I take a look at the job,get home,re-calculate everything and I am usually 5% over/under my rough guess,rarely 10%...
> 
> IF you dont have too big of an overhead it makes it even easier for you.
> 
> I would also suggest you spend couple of days pricing out everything in every trade you think/know you can do properly and can offer to market,get market rates and figure out where you stand as to what you want to charge customer.
> 
> Having sheet with your pricings all ready for you at your home/office will make your life so much more easier.



I did this recently and it has made a huge difference in the time i spend working on bids. True, it did seem like a large project at first , but now i have an organized binder i take with me when i look at jobs and i can give a quick estimate and know from experience and research that im not cutting myself short. Also, every few weeks i check my lumber price list with the big box lumber yards to make sure im up to date. a huge time saver. good luck!


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## Fence & Deck

Since you refer to yourself as a handyman, and you generally charge by the hour, then that's what you are. What you are doing is contracting, wherein you provide a design/build service. 
In our market, a handyman charges by the hour, regardless. 
When i called recently to get my fridge fixed, there was a fixed labour charge of $80 just to come out. This also covered the first hour. Then he told me how much the repair would be based on an additional labour charge of $80/hr, plus parts.

Seems to me that's what you should do. Since you charge by the hour it isn't unreasonable to charge at least for the initial drive out and discussion. I wish to heck I could get away with it, but there is absolutely no one in my market who charges for estimates. I'd be dead in the water if I tried.


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## Kingstud

Stone, your right. I do service work, I should use that model.


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## zeza1609

I did FREE estimates when i started..now i charge $74 for a service call. Tankless estimates are free


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## MotorCityBuildR

Oconomowoc said:


> Hey. I have a friend that does 90% drywall repair. That SOB makes more money than I do. He is the go to guy, he has developed a reputation as THE drywall repair guru. Everybody calls him. Now he wants to start a blog and hire drywall repair people. He specializes.
> 
> In the words of Charlie Sheen "WINNING!":laughing:
> 
> He still does everything but he focuses on the bread and butter.
> 
> I make the most when somebody calls up and says "My shower is dripping". You do 10 of those a day you go out and buy a Mercedes.
> 
> Mike


Mike hit it on the head. Specializing in a field will set you apart. A Handyman does it all and unfortunately some shouldn't. I can frame and do most anything but I'm a kick a$$ finish carpenter, no one in my area can touch what we do, word will spread.


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## erickMcg

This is a simple fix.

You're doing all your estimating by hand, right? You have spreadsheets etc and you go back and forth and you figure out your materials and your best guess on your time, and you use the last price figures you put into your cost sheets, then tack on some margin, right? And it's all pencil and paper and your pocket calculator and a lot of time consuming brainwork, which you pray will a) get you the job, and b) yield profit when all is said and done?

You need cost estimating software that does the heavy lifting for you. Something that updates itself to keep your local costs current, lets you look up materials fast like you would in a costbook, estimates labor costs based on your materials, and then lets you port the whole thing over to a bid form and then to an invoice and/or Quickbooks. The software needs to be super easy to use, super fast to create bids on the fly, and cheap to buy. 

Get yourself a National Estimator for your trade, or even better, the 10-in-one version that gives you costs for all the majors. I cannot recommend this software more, it does what the expensive estimating software does for the big guys, only for around a hundred bucks instead of thousands plus a computer nerd on the payroll to run it. 

I've seen small contractors take this tool and go from broke or breaking even to profit very quickly. A small job can be bid out in 15 minutes or less, right on the site if you have your laptop with you. There is info about all the different National Estimator versions available here: http://www.contractor-city.com/nat20esandco.html

-


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## Oconomowoc

Software does NOT make a contractor go from broke to profit. Software just makes the process faster assuming you understand how to use it. 

Assuming other factors aren't fixed and dealt immediately software can make it worse. Cart before the horse. 

Mike


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## svronthmve

Was that just an advertisement for National Estimating software?


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## Rich D.

Sounded that way!


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## erickMcg

Oconomowoc said:


> Software does NOT make a contractor go from broke to profit. Software just makes the process faster assuming you understand how to use it.
> 
> Assuming other factors aren't fixed and dealt immediately software can make it worse. Cart before the horse.
> 
> Mike


Very good point. But it seemed after reading the thread that his estimating skills seemed to be adequate to the work, and it was just the amount of time the process was taking that was the biggest drag on his productivity. 

I'll go back and re-read the full thread, perhaps I misunderstood.

-


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## erickMcg

svronthmve said:


> Was that just an advertisement for National Estimating software?


LOL I guess I did run on a bit, didn't I? Sorry, I like good business tools, and that's one of my favorites. I'll try to rein in the enthusiasm next time


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## englishdave

I'm in the handyman game too. I approach each job on a case by case basis and I rarely do handyman jobs on a fixed price, here's the email correspondence for a job that I just finished. It's top to bottom as I cut and pasted it from my email. ( Scroll to bottom to begin)




Ok Dave. That sounds fair. We can decide as we go how far we want to go with things. When can u start? TL


From: dave
To: TL
ReplyTo: [email protected]
Subject: Re: estimate
Sent: Sep 29, 2011 11:38 AM

Hi T L, I'm just looking at the notes from Tuesday. 
Quite a few of the jobs have a few variables and it would depend 
how much work is done. The deck repair and fence repair etc... 

If we were to power wash the exterior it would take somewhere 
between 8 to 14 hours depending on how far we go with sidewalks 
and roofs etc. Maybe clean the gutters out?

Also with the fence and patio pavers out the back, I would 
estimate myself and a helper would have things looking pretty 
solid and straight in 2 days, but it would depend on just how 
things work out.

Would it work for you if we did this on an hourly rate? My 
hourly rates are;

Carpenter/handyman $**ph
Painter $** ph
Helper/ Pressure wash $**ph
Materials at cost + 20% to cover overhead and profit.

A rough estimate would be

1,Back fence and pavers labour and materials $**, depending 
on materials needed and extent of fence rebuilding repair.

2,Stain window cills and frames, paint siding where it needs to 
be painted to match house and touch ups where needed.$**Also 
depends on how much touch up is required after power/detergent 
wash.
3,Repair balcony. This depends on if its a repair of take off 
the existing plywood and replace all and install waterproof 
membrane. $** to $** Also the extent of repainting of 
railings as hard to reach in places.
4,fix door jamb and floor boards, repair exterior tile steps, 
pick up materials and dispose of any garbage from fence 
etc...$**

I hope that helps. If you need recent references from clients 
that I have done hourly work for I can supply them. 

I picked up a cheque yesterday from a client in Kitsilano and 
she left my a nice note with the cheque to say "Hello David 
Thank you so much. You did a wonderful job.
Please use me as a reference though you must have so many 
already.
Ca *********

Regards, Dave
604 

"A good job at a fair price, that's our promise."

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "T
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 11:47:55 -0700

>Hi Dave----
>
>We are putting our house up for sale and it first needs a wide 
variety of repairs done from retaining walls and fences to decks 
to painting & pressure washing, window frame staining to fixing 
a door jamb. If this sounds like something your company does I 
would appreciate an estimate.
>
>Ter
>


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## englishdave

I'm thinking maybe the home owners have a conversation a bit like this after you left their home; 

Husband; (says in irritated tone)" Did that handyman leave yet?

Wife; Yeah thank god for that, I thought I'd never get the kids to bed

Husband; Two freaking hours to give a price to swap a faucet!

Wife; I know, I'm sure he was coming on to me.

they put feet up and watch TV


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## Kingstud

I can quote a typical faucet install over the phone, the job I described in this post I figured at $6,500 w/o materials. Turns out they just wanted my number as a negotiating tool w/ their contractor.

A job like that cannot be estimated on a book price. there wasnt 2 lf of anything lol but it all added up.


BammBamm-
If I spend 1/2 my time running around looking at jobs and doing quotes then I can only get a 1/2 days billable work done, don't make enough money and don't have time to take on all the new jobs. I dont have a crew out doing the work and am not ready to make that jump yet. Man it would be great to have a sales guy and a couple of workers.

My setup is pretty organized and I try to be as effecient as possible but still end up running around with my hair fire it seems like.

Awesome thread, need more time to read...


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## englishdave

I find that being a Jack of a lot o trades like I am makes it difficult to expand into employees. 
The jobs I do are to varied, the skills and tools needed different each time. I had a young guy helping me in the summer. He was OK but had no construction experience. 
On the first job we did he was OK, it was replacing some old railway ties that made up a retaining wall and a concrete sidewalk. There were lots of things where I could just point to and say carry all those over there etc..
But when we got onto a renovation, it got really tricky. I'd be saying "pass me the sawzol"
and he'd be "which ones that", I'd say "the red one", and then he'd come back with a red hand saw or something... we drove each other nuts.

I came to the conclusion that if I wanted to employ people and not have a big headache I'd have to do something that required the same skill and tool set, and not be to complicated. 
Things that came to mind are roofing, placing concrete, landscaping perhaps. But not roofing one week, concrete the next, then a bathroom reno followed by exterior house paint.
That's how I do things at the moment, it works for me on my own with occasional helper, but only because I've been at it long enough to learn it all. 
In many ways my Jack of all trades business is a bit of a bad business model. I'm the sort who likes variety and doesn't really want employees so I'll stick to it for now.


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## BamBamm5144

Kingstud said:


> I can quote a typical faucet install over the phone, the job I described in this post I figured at $6,500 w/o materials. Turns out they just wanted my number as a negotiating tool w/ their contractor.
> 
> A job like that cannot be estimated on a book price. there wasnt 2 lf of anything lol but it all added up.
> 
> BammBamm-
> If I spend 1/2 my time running around looking at jobs and doing quotes then I can only get a 1/2 days billable work done, don't make enough money and don't have time to take on all the new jobs. I dont have a crew out doing the work and am not ready to make that jump yet. Man it would be great to have a sales guy and a couple of workers.
> 
> My setup is pretty organized and I try to be as effecient as possible but still end up running around with my hair fire it seems like.
> 
> Awesome thread, need more time to read...


Answer me this. How come you DON'T make enough money? Where do you want your business to go?


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