# what guage do i use?



## rollintony04 (Jan 15, 2005)

Thanks again for all your help! I just like busting peoples bubbles just to see what they will say. All you guys make me laugh! It only cost me 288 bucks for the electrican to install it all. Took him about 1 and a half hrs. He put a panel in my garage so i dont have to run to my house if a breaker blows with 1 220 breaker and 2 30 amp breakers for my 110 stuff well thats what he said anyways. Noe of it made sense to me. Ill stick to my laying ashphalt. You gus made me laugh! lol!


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

rollintony04 said:


> Thanks again for all your help! I just like busting peoples bubbles just to see what they will say. All you guys make me laugh! It only cost me 288 bucks for the electrican to install it all. Took him about 1 and a half hrs. He put a panel in my garage so i dont have to run to my house if a breaker blows with 1 220 breaker and 2 30 amp breakers for my 110 stuff well thats what he said anyways. Noe of it made sense to me. Ill stick to my laying ashphalt. You gus made me laugh! lol!


Yea, You ought to see us all on a roll. Crap as far as the eye can see.

Bob


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## jbfan (Apr 1, 2004)

I disagree with the 30 amp breakers for the 110 stuff. If this is the breaker protecting the 15 or 20 amp outlets, this is a code violation as well as a safety hazard!

Can you verify that this breaker kills your general use outlets?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

rollintony04 said:


> He put a panel in my garage so i dont have to run to my house if a breaker blows


Actually he put the sub-panel in your garage instead of putting the sub-panel next to the main panel because then all he had to do was run the circuits from the sub-panel located in the garage instead of running the circuits all the way from the location of the main panel. Probably would have cost you 3x as much if he located the sub-panel next to the main.


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

jbfan said:


> I disagree with the 30 amp breakers for the 110 stuff. If this is the breaker protecting the 15 or 20 amp outlets, this is a code violation as well as a safety hazard!
> 
> Can you verify that this breaker kills your general use outlets?


 not quite- 210.19(A)(4) and 210.19(A)(4)(c) requires the ampacity of the circuit to be equal to or greater than the receptacle rating. tap rules for multibranch blah blah the breaker protects the wire the tap must be some % of circut ala #12 wire i think your confusing 210.21 single rec on a brach cir . in fact i belive you could say tap a 40amp br- #8 stove ect with # 10 or #12 im not sure -for another appliance its in 210 plus you couldnt derate a circut thats my take at least. no offense jbfan


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## jbfan (Apr 1, 2004)

marxlaws said:


> not quite- 210.19(A)(4) and 210.19(A)(4)(c) requires the ampacity of the circuit to be equal to or greater than the receptacle rating. tap rules for multibranch blah blah the breaker protects the wire the tap must be some % of circut ala #12 wire i think your confusing 210.21 single rec on a brach cir . in fact i belive you could say tap a 40amp br- #8 stove ect with # 10 or #12 im not sure -for another appliance its in 210 plus you couldnt derate a circut thats my take at least. no offense jbfan


None taken, but table 210.21(b) (3) states circuit ratings of 30 require 30 amp rated receptacle. 210.19(A)(4)(C) states other than recptacle outlets
Look at 210.21(B)(3). I think that explains table 210.21(B)(3). or it may be to late for me to read the code book tonight!


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

you just may be right, but here is my problem ul has approved a 30 amp to 20 amp config adapter. i have just spent an hour scouring the nec, and im having a problem proving my point. that table is wall. there are all kinds of excptions to get around this but they exculde recp, i will get back to you on this   210.19(A)(4)(c) got me i think. where the tap conductors shall have ampacity sufficient for load served - and taps are 15 amps or more for circuts rated below 40 amps and 12awg 40-50 amps man i got to get some sleep gn.


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Sounds about right. Parts were about $90 and the rest in labor. Still don't understand the 30amp but what the hell. 

I'll bring the marshmellows and hotdogs...............


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Guys, it's *210.24 Summary Table*. 
This is a _Code 101_ topic. No general purpose outlets (lighting or receptacle) on a 30 amp circuit. 



15 & 20 amp branch circuits are obvious. 
30 amp branch circuits may only serve 30 amp receptacles and heavy duty lamp holders(in a non-dwelling only).


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

Speedy Petey said:


> Guys, it's *210.24 Summary Table*.
> This is a _Code 101_ topic. No general purpose outlets (lighting or receptacle) on a 30 amp circuit.
> 
> 
> ...


im not a code lightweight it just one of those things i thought the over current device protected the wire, and applied a tap rule. plus ul has a lot of things that defy the code or skirt the edges such as an adapter frrom 30 to a 20 slot socket. the white book is rarely looked at by field techs and i truly thought there was an end run around that table - 210.21(b) (3) states circuit ratings of 30 require 30 amp rated receptacle. even the way it was written- circut ratings -not over current device. and then there is the 210.20 - b that states the requirements for a SINGLE receptical on a branch circut. etc .and then 210.19 (4) exception 1 that states-tap conductors shall have an ampacity sufficient for loads served. what i missed was 210.19 (4) subtext - c that later defines that exception. there is more, several articals refer and seem to supersede table - 210.21(b) (3) and as you mentioned summary artical 210.24-.but the devil it seems is in the fine print. i asked three electricians licenced journeyman this question and they all seemed to think you could do it if it was a tap or if #10 was run from the overcurrent device, but like me have never done it because if they needed a 30 amp supply, we installed a 30 amp outlet.



i put this in the strapping catagory- not many electricians know the rules for strapping- mc and pipe. they know the basics and trade standard,and they mostly over build, but rarely is the code min applied to strapping runs.


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

jbfan said:


> I disagree with the 30 amp breakers for the 110 stuff. If this is the breaker protecting the 15 or 20 amp outlets, this is a code violation as well as a safety hazard!


ithink your right on with that, but i reserve the right to flip flop!  :cheesygri


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## rollintony04 (Jan 15, 2005)

all that code stuff doesnt mean nothing to me cause i dont know really what you guys are talking about. Do you guys think i got the shaft or what? Everything seems like its working good. When i kill the main everything shuts off and also all of my equipment seems to work fine except i notice when my air compressor kicks on the shop lights dim for a sec. Is that ok? Thanks again you over paid electricans, LOL!! just joking !!


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

It's not that you got the shaft, it's just the guy who did the work didn't really kow his code very well. 
Just because it works doesn't mean it's right. I get that all the time when I point out a code or safety violation; "I never had any problems before", yeah, and your house never burned down before either.


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

Speedy Petey said:


> It's not that you got the shaft, it's just the guy who did the work didn't really kow his code very well.
> Just because it works doesn't mean it's right. I get that all the time when I point out a code or safety violation; "I never had any problems before", yeah, and your house never burned down before either.


 Why hasen't ul just beefed up the connection on a 20. ul has already approved an adapter 30 to 20. Useing #10 and 30 amp recept with a 20 amp adapter - is no different than having what he has got. as long as you start with #10. what im saying he could- right now- put in the 30 amp receptical and put two adapters in it, plug in his radio or what ever -and be up to code. dosent make a whole lot of sense.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

The only UL listed adapter I know of is for a travel trailer. Then againa a 120 volt, 30 amp receptacle for a travel trailer is not a general purpose recetpacle. 

We all know it is not the end of the world code violation, but if it were not a safety consideration it would not be in the code. Some of the code is overkill but I don't feel this is the case here. 

Bottom line is it is a violation, and an electrician did the work. Like I said before, this issue is Electric Code 101 basic stuff.


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

Speedy Petey said:


> The only UL listed adapter I know of is for a travel trailer. Then againa a 120 volt, 30 amp receptacle for a travel trailer is not a general purpose recetpacle.
> 
> We all know it is not the end of the world code violation, but if it were not a safety consideration it would not be in the code. Some of the code is overkill but I don't feel this is the case here.
> 
> Bottom line is it is a violation, and an electrician did the work. Like I said before, this issue is Electric Code 101 basic stuff.


 come on now, :Thumbs: im allowed to have my head up my ass every once in a while!  :cheesygri


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

If anyone is looking for large UL listed connector/adapters go to any marine supply. They start at 30A and go up, 100A being the most common, most are weathertite too.


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## DeadShort (Feb 1, 2005)

If your main panel is full, there isn't a place to connect another breaker to supply the SUB-panel and not to mention it's probably all "tapped-out". Adding more loads may cause main to trip.


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## Electricmanscot (Feb 6, 2005)

Busted! He's right we are too expensive. :evil:


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