# Consistancy of Asbestos Flooring Mastic



## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

We just got back into the first of the buildings I'm working at after an Asbestos abatement of ceiling texture and tile and mastic in the stairwells. Our first job is to get the old carpet glue up from the rubber backed tiles in the lounge areas we took up a month ago. As we're scraping the glue up we are exposing areas where the glue just won't come up and at the edges of these areas we are seeing black rock hard stuff which we believe to be a floor leveler of some sort. We started into a second floor which is entirely the black stuff except for one area. I was just searching on here for ways to remove the carpet glue and found a post that asbestos flooring mastic is black. 

I would expect that the abatement company would have caught it if there was asbestos in the black stuff but I also expect they covered the floor with plastic since it was so sticky, so they may not have seen it. I also know there was asbestos containing tile and mastic removed from the building stairwells. Since we are going at it pretty heavy with floor scrapers to get the glue up, I'm concerned about releasing asbestos from the black stuff if it is asbestos containing flooring mastic left from a prior flooring replacement.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

The tile contained asbestos, not the adhesive. 

The adhesive is black, it would have been installed with a "V" notched trowel, you would see alternating lines of black adhesive then bare floor. The adhesive for asbestos tile would not be sticky now.


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

thom said:


> The tile contained asbestos, not the adhesive.
> 
> The adhesive is black, it would have been installed with a "V" notched trowel, you would see alternating lines of black adhesive then bare floor. The adhesive for asbestos tile would not be sticky now.


Not according to this site: http://www.mesothelioma.com/asbestos-exposure/products/mastic/



> *Mastic is a heavy duty adhesive that was primarily made out of asbestos*, a naturally occurring mineral. It was an especially strong glue that could not only hold most any surfaces together, but was also able to survive during intense heat or fire. This was because asbestos is innately fire retardant.


Also mentioned on this site: http://www.stonybrook.edu/ehs/asbestos/floor_tiles.shtml



> Asbestos was used in many types of building materials including vinyl floor tile and floor tile mastic. The asbestos in the floor tile served to increase resistance to wear and water damage and was well bound into the plastic matrix. New or recently installed floor tile should not contain asbestos but our older 12" x 12" floor tile and 9" x 9" floor tile, circa 1980's or earlier, will likely contain asbestos. *Also, our older black mastic has almost always been found to contain asbestos unlike the newer yellow or clear mastic.* Even though not all of the floor tile and mastic at the University may actually contain asbestos, the University must assume all floor tile and mastic contains asbestos, unless laboratory analysis proves otherwise. However, in order to expedite numerous weekly floor tile projects and save on expensive laboratory costs, we don't routinely sample floor tile and mastic. Known or presumed asbestos-containing floor tile and mastic must be cared for in a special manner as outlined below:



The stuff we're finding is prefectly flat from what we're seeing. However it may have been scraped or ground flat in the past so I don't think lack of trowel notches serves as a good indicator. We are also only seeing the edges of it in the one building we are finished with. The glue we are removing would not come up completely in the areas with the black stuff although it did smooth out completely so it won't be a problem for the new flooring. In that building the black stuff also appears to have a gray paint over it which comes up with the glue. The buildings were originally built in ~1965. From tags on the back of some of the carpet we pulled up, the carpet was installed in 1984 and was apparently replaced again last year with commercial carpet squares which are the source of the glue we are taking up.


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## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

Sounds like an "emulsion" adhesive which set so hard it was viable to be used to level/patch bad areas------for asphalt tile which was much different to deal with than VAT or VCT as far as floor prep. 

I've been around a long time but this info is from the guys who trained me 30-35 years ago talking about stuff they handled 20-35-50 years before that. 

I've encountered it on many jobs. I believe SOME could contain asbestos but CERTAINLY not all of it. 

I agree with you or whosoever above mentioned that if there's an asbestos abatement going on at this site it's virtually inconceivable that they didn't test this mastic.


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## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

What specifically are you using as "floor scrapers"?

What is your responsibility as far as residual adhesive and damage to the slab from your demolition and adhesive removal? 

What SPECIFICALLY has the flooring installer accepted in his contract as far as prep. 

Have you contacted any manufacturer's reps of the flooring specified for this project to be clear what HAS to be done for a warranty?

What do YOU know about the compatibility of the EXISTING adhesives and mysterious "black mastic" and any underlayment, adhesives and backings of the new floor?


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

You talking about black cutback adhesive?...If so, from what I know, it *can* contain higher% than the tile itself. 

Of course each situation is different and like others said, not all will test hot.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

thom said:


> The tile contained asbestos, not the adhesive.





Back in the day,asbestos was in a bunch of stuff,floor mastic was one. The tile was a given,the va stood for vinyl asbestos,also dry wall mud contained it.


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

BKM Resilient said:


> What specifically are you using as "floor scrapers"?
> 
> What is your responsibility as far as residual adhesive and damage to the slab from your demolition and adhesive removal?
> 
> ...


They have given us 8" razor floor scrapers which is what the flooring installer recomended for this job. Our job is to get the balls of the old adhesive off and leave a more or less level surface. Since the carpet was removed, the traffic in the building has created little balls on the surface of the old adhesive.

The new carpet tiles are being installed without adhesives and are a rubber backed commercial carpet tile. This is the same stuff we just took out. 

I'm on the labor crew brought in originally to move furniture. What exactly the flooring installer has agreed to is something I don't know.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Why not chemically remove it?

Sounds like you are working for a bass akward bunch of hacks.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

In the past (pre-1980?) cutback adhesives often included asbestos. Of course if it's not getting into breathable form, it's not going to hurt you. Be careful about if or how you ask about it - you may be labelled as a troublemaker and get fired. At the very least, if you're worried about it, get your own respirators when you're working in dusty circumstances - a good check-valve type is a step up from the typical drywall dust mask.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

griz said:


> Why not chemically remove it?
> 
> Sounds like you are working for a bass akward bunch of hacks.


Because a lot of chemicals will interfere with the bond of the new flooring being installed. It's not always just about the demo, sometimes it's more important to know whats going down next :thumbsup:


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## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

Dustincoc said:


> They have given us 8" razor floor scrapers which is what the flooring installer recomended for this job. Our job is to get the balls of the old adhesive off and leave a more or less level surface. Since the carpet was removed, the traffic in the building has created little balls on the surface of the old adhesive.
> 
> The new carpet tiles are being installed without adhesives and are a rubber backed commercial carpet tile. This is the same stuff we just took out.
> 
> I'm on the labor crew brought in originally to move furniture. What exactly the flooring installer has agreed to is something I don't know.


*****************************
Glue that won't come off with a "Scrape-Away" plate on a floor sander/buffer ordinarily can be scraped with 4" razor scrapers. 

http://industrial.personnablades.com/ProductCatalog/Detail.aspx?prodid=677&brand=Personna&item=3+3%2f4%22+%2f+95+MM+Skinner+Blade+-

We don't use any chemicals for obvious reasons. Sometimes PIPING hot water loosens things up some so long as you keep it within reason as far as how long you soak the slab. 

I'm not familiar with loose lay rubber back carpet tiles. The issue in removing adhesive are a smooth floor so they lay flat AND compatibility of the backing with any residue. 

It's not unusual for us to skimcoat with cement patch over troublesome adhesives instead of scraping them. This requires some level of expertise------you need to know all what's going on top in addition to what's being skimmed over. The little balls that are creating the issues can them be easily sanded off.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Because a lot of chemicals will interfere with the bond of the new flooring being installed. It's not always just about the demo, sometimes it's more important to know whats going down next :thumbsup:


I agree...

I should have been more specific...:thumbsup:

I have seen the abatement guys use a Soy based product that dissolved the old glue & the installers bought off on it also....:thumbup:


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

Scrape some up , put it in a ziplock bag and send it to the laboratory, document everything and discreetly take some pictures. If it comes back positive, decide where you want to spend your 100k from the lawsuit.


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## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

There was two different kinds of black mastic. One was mostly asbestos, the other wasn't. Test it.


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

BKM Resilient said:


> *****************************
> Glue that won't come off with a "Scrape-Away" plate on a floor sander/buffer ordinarily can be scraped with 4" razor scrapers.
> 
> http://industrial.personnablades.com/ProductCatalog/Detail.aspx?prodid=677&brand=Personna&item=3+3%2f4%22+%2f+95+MM+Skinner+Blade+-
> ...


I doubt we'll be seeing an machines to do the job. We have to strip and wax over 200 dorm room floors with "doodle-bugs"(a scotch-brite pad on a handle). They apparently only have 2 floor buffers for the entire university. When we first started this project I did a little research as I haven't worked with any carpet tiles before. Several of us salvaged a lot of the old carpet tiles for personal projects. We were told this was fine on the first day since then they didn't have to pay to get rid of them. I came across this site during my search: http://www.interioroutlet.com/carpet.html



> Heavy Rubber-backed
> 
> *Requires NO glue*, NO tack strip, NO pad and LITTLE labor
> 
> ...


I don't think this is the exact product we removed however. it sounds very similar. There were no markings on the removed tiles to indicate manufacturer or pattern. We have repeatedly been told the new tiles will not be glued down. However, we were also told the dorm rooms were getting linoleum which we would have to strip and wax before moving the furniture in which made no sense since modern linoleum doesn't need waxing. The other day we were told the rooms were getting floor tile which made a lot more sense. All this is coming straight from the top guy for the whole project.



griz said:


> Sounds like you are working for a bass akward bunch of hacks.


I have to agree with you. I'm probably going to get a few pics of the finished ceiling for the wall of shame. Does it really cost that much to spray a quick texture over the bare concrete?


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## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

Actually I should correct something above. Where I said we skim over adhesive INSTEAD of scraping them up it's more accurate to describe the process as skim coat/patch IN ADDITION to scraping. Ideally the heavy ridges can be scraped off and the residue "encapsulated" creating a smooth, well bonded and compatible surface. 

Where the adhesives are particularly fresh or gummy and the floor needs to be exceptionally clean and smooth this can be a process of scraping, skimming, sanding and possibly even a second coat of patch. 

For carpet tiles it heavily depends on the backing (and normally adhesives) . Some are tolerant of most latex based or acrylic adhesive residue. The the goal is just to get an adequate bond and a smooth surface. 

Without adhesive it's just a matter of smooth and clean. Thermoplastic backing would likely be incompatible with cutback but I'm not sure if emulsion adhesive has the same kind of reaction to those backings. Those tiles you linked to have rubber within the backing but the layer in contact with the slab is thermoplastic with fiberglass reinforcement. So you'd probably want to segregate that backing from any unknown adhesive residue to be safe.

To make a long story short I'd recommend a skim coat.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I would recommend that the floor guys do the prep, then it's on them to get the surface to a useable level for themselves. Now they will be able to blame you guys when or if it fails.


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## Remediator (Jun 12, 2013)

Most tool rentals stores rent floor scrappers, if their Asbestos Abatement done most of them will stand behind their work, if you call them they will return and advice you.


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