# Employee demands more money.



## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Give him the raise this week and fire him next week. That would be really mean. :whistling


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

mdshunk said:


> Give him the raise this week and fire him next week. That would be really mean. :whistling



Being a Prick again, are we Shunk????

I love it!!!!!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

MALCO.New.York said:


> Being a Prick again, are we Shunk????
> 
> I love it!!!!!


Do you mean "again" or "still"?


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Both!!!!


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## orson (Nov 23, 2007)

joasis said:


> My post isn't about ego, regardless of opinions. I am basing my post on the "or else" position. Yes, good employees are tough to find, but I will not let employees dictate terms to me. If they ask for a raise, that is an entirely different matter. I will add that I do not have anyone working for me that I cannot replace....and did that a few weeks ago.


 
Your employees have every right to dictate certain terms to you:

"you must treat me with respect or I won't work for you"

"you must not ask me to perform work that is unduly dangerous or I won't work for you"

Would you fire employees for for taking those "or else" positions? The only difference is that those positions do not normally need to be stated outright.

Unfortunately with many employers the concept of "you must pay me what I am worth that the market will bear" is a concept that need be stated outright. 

I would make the decision based solely on whether or not the employee was worth the money.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

orson said:


> Your employees have every right to dictate certain terms to you:
> 
> "you must treat me with respect or I won't work for you"
> 
> ...



Here! Here!


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## dutchlegacy (Feb 29, 2008)

ultimatums given by an employee are unacceptable. do not give in, or it will hurt your standing with other employees, and it will make you feel worthless.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

dutchlegacy said:


> ultimatums given by an employee are unacceptable. do not give in, or it will hurt your standing with other employees, and it will make you feel worthless.


So if a guy comes to you and say's....... 

"I'm having a hard time paying my bills. I really feel that I'm worth more than what I'm being paid. I like to work here but if I can't make enough to pay the bills I have to move on."

You would let him go on those grounds? That *is* an Ultimatum.:blink:


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

I am worthless without my employees. Well, not entirely worthless because I'm a Journeyman, but without their help, I'm just a Journeyman. With my employees, I'm part of a team.

I've lost track of the employers who needed to control construction workers only to discover that they need them more than they need us. In other words, you can be a big shot to your toddler, but not to a grown man.

Besides, I like aggressive employees....ain't no wimps or whiners allowed here.


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## J87513 (Jan 15, 2007)

piece work?


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Ultimatums given by an employee are rarely given as a threat to the employer, they are due to the ignorance of the employee as they are unable to communicate otherwise.

You have to consider the level of education and social position of the employee. I dislike going into race here but it's the truth and relevent.

JUST AN EXAMPLE: A black man with a 6th grd. education and living in public housing can be particularly threatening (especially when angry) than a white person with a HS education and a lower class background. Although the two are starting to meld and not to the better side.

The black guy may become instantly violent and the white guy will firebomb your office later.

Your part is to know who is who, anticipate their reactions and prepare for it. By prepare, I mean how to diffuse any conflicts before they begin and shunt them as they arise.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Putty Truck said:


> Besides, I like aggressive employees....ain't no wimps or whiners allowed here.


Exactly!!!!!! Good trait!


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## Subia29 (Feb 18, 2007)

At one company I used to worked for, the forman used to hand out checks to employees signed by the owner with no evelopes. It was one of those outfits where Ultimatums came.....went ..... came back again. .....went again ...... etc


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## excellencee (Feb 1, 2007)

Only you know what your market will bear and how much your checkbook will bear. Is he worth $20 an hour? Only you know. To him, he's worth $44 of the $45 that your billing. Offer what you thing is fair based on his production with clear objectives for more compensation. My tax guy is a big advocate of bonus pay. The more money he makes you, the more he makes. No way would I let him go though. Let him leave so you don't have to pay unemployment. He'll probably start his own shop when he leaves, but he'll go under billing out the $20 an hour he thinks he's worth.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

orson said:


> Your employees have every right to dictate certain terms to you:
> 
> "you must treat me with respect or I won't work for you"
> 
> ...


These points are not in the same context as the OP we were discussing. But since you are asking, here you go:

Respect is a 2 way street, give it to get it...if an employee has an attitude problem, and I cannot find the problem, he needs to be in a more positive environment. This is an "at will" state.

We do a lot of work up high, and while not really dangerous, it can be. I do not ask employees to do anything I will not do, and they know this. But if a guy says one day he can't hack it, or, in his opinion, it is not dangerous, then he needs to go anyway. 

Like nearly all subjects we get into, opinions vary across the board...the way this one should end is no one will change an opinion, and I would not let an employee dictate terms to me...if he wants to do that, he can get his name on the company.


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

Teetorbilt said:


> Ultimatums given by an employee are rarely given as a threat to the employer, they are due to the ignorance of the employee as they are unable to communicate otherwise.


You have to factor in the perceived message, too. For all the OP knows is the man could have been coming to him with hat in hand, humble as all git, but the OP's ding-a-ling was feeling really tiny that moment, so he perceived the employee as demanding more money.

I have to side with the employee knowing that the average manager don't know nothing about managing and the higher the education level the smaller the perceived ding-a-ling...


Teetorbilt said:


> You have to consider the level of education and social position of the employee. I dislike going into race here but it's the truth and relevent.
> 
> JUST AN EXAMPLE: A black man with a 6th grd. education and living in public housing can be particularly threatening (especially when angry) than a white person with a HS education and a lower class background. Although the two are starting to meld and not to the better side.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you'd better watch out for those ********, dey be mean as rattlesnakes at noon. 

White people are funny :laughing:


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## dutchlegacy (Feb 29, 2008)

Jason W said:


> So if a guy comes to you and say's.......
> 
> "I'm having a hard time paying my bills. I really feel that I'm worth more than what I'm being paid. I like to work here but if I can't make enough to pay the bills I have to move on."
> 
> You would let him go on those grounds? That *is* an Ultimatum.:blink:


not true. an ultimatum is a final proposition, ending all posibility of negotiation, in which specific conditions must be met. What you have written above sounds rational, and lends itself to discussion. I can tell you this: if those "bills" you speak of are child support, alimony, credit card debt, etc...its not our problem. If a guy can't pay his electric bill, we're talking about something entirely different, and you know it. Personal finances of employees are not only none of my business, but they are not my problem. We take care of our employees, and we pay them well, because we expect the best work from them. If a man/woman decides to live above their means, that a personal issue.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

At some point in time you really need to analyze the company culture. That is to say, if the only reason you've given a person to want to work for you is the money they make, something's amiss. If the level of loyalty starts and ends at the hourly wage, either you're a person or company that's not much fun to work for, or the employee has some more fundamental problem.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

joasis said:


> My post isn't about ego, regardless of opinions. I am basing my post on the "or else" position. Yes, good employees are tough to find, but I will not let employees dictate terms to me. If they ask for a raise, that is an entirely different matter. I will add that I do not have anyone working for me that I cannot replace....and did that a few weeks ago.


I agree with joasis. You can't have employees dictating terms.:no::no:


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

dutchlegacy said:


> not true. an ultimatum is a final proposition, ending all possibility of negotiation, in which specific conditions must be met. What you have written above sounds rational, and lends itself to discussion. I can tell you this: if those "bills" you speak of are child support, alimony, credit card debt, etc...its not our problem. If a guy can't pay his electric bill, we're talking about something entirely different, and you know it. Personal finances of employees are not only none of my business, but they are not my problem. We take care of our employees, and we pay them well, because we expect the best work from them. If a man/woman decides to live above their means, that a personal issue.


We should understand the circumstances better!

OP?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

An employee is a product in your company. If he wants this raise of $4 an hour, it's time to sit down and let him sell you on what he is going to do for your company for this $4 boost. He's offering you a better product then what he is today. What is he going to give the company for this $4.00?

If he can't come up with anything that makes sense to you, then it's not about him being worth the additional money, it's just about him believing he is under paid. 

Sometimes there is simply nothing you can do if somebody is convinced they are under paid and they aren't. They have to go out and discover for themselves.


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## dutchlegacy (Feb 29, 2008)

Jason W said:


> We should understand the circumstances better!
> 
> OP?


I agree, didn't mean to be a jerk.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

dutchlegacy said:


> I agree, didn't mean to be a jerk.


No worries, if the guy *is* being an a$$ about it, let him wiggle his way out the door. If not then it should be handled differently IMO. No beef! We are all making assumptions.

Time for the OP to fill us in


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Give him a raise. A BIGGER one than he asked for. Why? YOU are dictating the terms with STIPULATIONS. If he does not deliver in a Month, Fire the Fooker!

Put the ball BACK IN YOUR COURT!


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The only person who is authorized to give ultimatums is the owner/manager of the company. Anyone else had better be ready for the worst outcome, because that is the only reasonable way for an owner/boss to react to an employee dictating business decisons outside of his normal area of responsability.


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## nywoodwizard (Sep 10, 2005)

Like you said "The only issue I have with him is the production thing. (which is where the bread and butter is)" So is that really the only issue ? Then you probably already know the answerer, does his production warrant $20 an hour ? An employee must be profitable 

Lets be honest with each other here, lots of people would probably never get a raise if they didn't ask for it, some boss's are just plain cheap. Nothing wrong with trying to make more money as long as we "produce enough to deserve it."

But Maybe you should stop handing out token titles like 'Foreman" . 15.00 an hour is a painters helper wages , not a Foreman.

I know a guy that use to hire guys at around the same rate and tell them they were "Yard managers" its a suckers move, it made them feel real important ,they were afraid to ask for raises, they didn't want to lose there "managers position".


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

There are WAY too many persons thinking with their Johnsons here! No offense. But Business is Business. Handle it!


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

nywoodwizard said:


> Like you said "The only issue I have with him is the production thing. (which is where the bread and butter is)" So is that really the only issue ? Then you probably already know the answerer, does his production warrant $20 an hour ? An employee must be profitable
> 
> Lets be honest with each other here, lots of people would probably never get a raise if they didn't ask for it, some boss's are just plain cheap. Nothing wrong with trying to make more money as long as we "produce enough to deserve it."
> 
> ...




Agreed!




ALL Bosses are cheap. If not, hang it up now. You will NEVER get Wealthy!

The Wealthy STAY Wealthy because they are, generally speaking, cheap Bastards!

I am. And I am cheap as hell when it comes to consumption by my tenants. But I will be the FIRST to spend two-grand on a washer/dryer for a unit!

But do not dare waste electricity. THAT comes outta MY POCKET! I WILL ***** about ten-dollars, but spend a bunch to make a nice "living environment".

KEEP your employees HAPPY. You are NOTHING without them. Do not pander, but keep them smiling!


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

nywoodwizard said:


> But Maybe you should stop handing out token titles like 'Foreman" . 15.00 an hour is a painters helper wages , not a Foreman.
> 
> 
> > Very good point, and I'll tell ya why!
> ...


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

joasis said:


> My post isn't about ego, regardless of opinions. I am basing my post on the "or else" position. Yes, good employees are tough to find, but I will not let employees dictate terms to me. If they ask for a raise, that is an entirely different matter. I will add that I do not have anyone working for me that I cannot replace....and did that a few weeks ago.


Face it. Any time someone asks for a raise it basically IS an ultimatum. Because if you turn them down they WILL either quit or they will stay and let resentment dictate that they should slow the production down as far as possible to make you pay FOR turning down the raise. I know. I have been that employee! BTW, 15 bucks an hour is what some fast food employees make here. If you cant pay more by charging more, maybe scale back with the downturn.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

pfloyd said:


> Face it. Any time someone asks for a raise it basically IS an ultimatum. Because if you turn them down they WILL either quit or they will stay and let resentment dictate that they should slow the production down as far as possible to make you pay FOR turning down the raise. I know. I have been that employee! BTW, 15 bucks an hour is what some fast food employees make here. If you cant pay more by charging more, maybe scale back with the downturn.


Exactly,:thumbsup:


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## nywoodwizard (Sep 10, 2005)

This is also a good reason to set forth some rules about raises and such. Employers should let employees know when there first hired, when to expect raises and how much, it eliminates false expectations, and lots of headaches. Mis leading employees is not the right thing to do.


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

This is why I want to be sole proprietorship. Hiring people requires figuring out how deep you can screw them without them pulling away. With 15 years of being "screwed", I would hate to try to do that to a bunch of chumps. Although, I realize most jobs are too big to do on your own. Capitalism is very interesting to watch......


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## Rick2008 (Mar 21, 2008)

BMAN said:


> We are a repaint and remodel company. I have a guy who came to me last year from out of town saying he was making $21 an hour where he lived. I told him our market does not pay that good up here but hired him anyway and told him we could start him at $15 as a foreman and we could talk money again in the spring.
> 
> I gave him a $1 raise in January but he still says he is worth $20. He came to me today and $20 or he has to leave.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are struggling with yourself to answer this. Bottom line is is he worth it? Can you fin someone that will do the same work for the same price?


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

Another thing you might consider looking in to is that once an employee hits a certain pay rate, his worker's comp rate drops dramatically. Here, that rate is $23 per hour. If I pay a guy (carpenter) less than that...his rate is around $40 per $100....when he hits $23...it goes down to $13 per hundred....So basically, It costs me the same amount of money to pay a full time guy $23 per hour as it does to pay him $17....

F***ing California!!!


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I like Shunk's response. Give him the raise, fire him in a week...but to add to it...conditions apply

1. Work and production improves
2. No other employees are whispering that it's not fair (Meaning he can't keep things confidential)
3. Excluded from bonus programs that others may receive


Better yet, make it Salary, none of this 8-4:30 crap, he's in at 6:30 setting up for the day, at 5:00 he's checking everything in and making lists for tomorrow. Let him know what a supervisor/leader real needs to do to earn his keep and above standard local wage


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## Stickman (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm sorry but 15$ hr for any trade as a lead man/foreman/supervisor what ever u call it, is cheap plain and simple unless you are providing him a take home truck or something. Try that around jersey that guy wouldn't get out of bed!!!! Cost of living is on the rise, gas is expected to reach $4.00 gal. here in south jersey by June. Your gonna see this more often these days. its only the start of whats yet to come.


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## playsinmud (Jan 25, 2008)

If this guy is giving you ultimatum now, he will give you one next year and the year after. In this day and age it's tough because the younger generation has a sense of entitlement. The worst part about it is they don'tknow squat. I have no problem paying top dollar but I expect top dollar work. I don't know this guy but he smells like a bad apple for the morale of your company and your bottom line. Regardless you need to sit down with him and express your concerns but I'd be leaning to letting him walk.


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## BMAN (Aug 21, 2006)

As far as the company morale all the other guys are happy and most have been with me for a long time. This guy comes to me with a lot of credentials and tells me that he wants to show me what he can bring to the table. He did bring some great things to the table from a business owner standpoint. He brought in some work to the company by forging a relationship with another paint company (those jobs have yet to realize a profit and I am now doubting they will. (they did keep guys working year round though) The bottom line is that I don't think that I can bid competitively with someone at that rate. 
The one guy (Jason) who said that he hung sheet rock in the eighties for $23 hour forgot one thing. Kodak, GM Xerox, baush and lomb and many others are mostly gone now and so are the wages that those companies paid and so on down the line. So wages aorund here have fallen way back thus the reason that housing never went through the roof. 

If we had 25 employees I would need someone at that rate doing a lot more things and we could afford it year round. Sure I could afford to carry him at that rate all summer but then what? and there is also the thing with the other employees not liking him. 

So my decision is that the tail will not wag the dog.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

A agree completely. Matter of fact, that is what i tell my guys....the tail never wags the dog.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

BMAN said:


> As far as the company morale all the other guys are happy and most have been with me for a long time. This guy comes to me with a lot of credentials and tells me that he wants to show me what he can bring to the table. He did bring some great things to the table from a business owner standpoint. He brought in some work to the company by forging a relationship with another paint company (those jobs have yet to realize a profit and I am now doubting they will. (they did keep guys working year round though) The bottom line is that I don't think that I can bid competitively with someone at that rate.
> The one guy (Jason) who said that he hung sheet rock in the eighties for $23 hour forgot one thing. Kodak, GM Xerox, baush and lomb and many others are mostly gone now and so are the wages that those companies paid and so on down the line. So wages aorund here have fallen way back thus the reason that housing never went through the roof.
> 
> If we had 25 employees I would need someone at that rate doing a lot more things and we could afford it year round. Sure I could afford to carry him at that rate all summer but then what? and there is also the thing with the other employees not liking him.
> ...


I still say you're looking at it the wrong way. Have him earn the promotion and raise by showing you how you are going to pay for it. If he is all he says he is, he should be able to do it.

Never forget that the biggest secret in business is to hire people better then yourself.

You keep talking about his credentials and what he has done, you sound to me like you believe he just might be the real deal. If I thought so and had somebody like that, I'd certainly explore and entertain what he wants, but it would be very different then just, "Okay, here's your raise... now what?"

I'd want him to show me how he is worth it, in dollars and sense, what he is going to do for the company, for how long and when. Set goals, put it in writing, have him sign it. (You do have work agreements already, right?) 

Could be the best thing you ever did, if you a good enough manager to manage the downside and keep on top of him if he turns out to be full of it. At least then you would know for sure and you'll be one step ahead next time with this experience under your belt.

Another good question to ask him, is what are his plans if you decide not to promote him? I'm sure you have been around long enough in your market to have a good handle on what it's all about, so find out what he is thinking his alternatives are.

One thing I would do I after all this I did go through with it is to split that raise, give him the promotion at half the raise with a bench mark in the future if he hits his goals for the rest of it.


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

BMAN said:


> ... and there is also the thing with the other employees not liking him.
> 
> So my decision is that the tail will not wag the dog.


You are afraid of him.


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## straight line (Aug 27, 2006)

I worked in Syracuse for 12 years and for $15 per hour( 2000yr)You were expected to do everything from framing layout for a custom house,to high end trim ,tile,custom bathrooms and kitchens ,etc... by yourself with one helper.
Thats why I had to start my own business 5 years ago just to make ends meet,best thing i ever done.
That being said,if your market or business can't justify paying that much,you'll have to explain that every one is replaceable starting with the boss on down


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I have to admire Finley's perception at times....but I disagree.....I feel you can have employees that are immensely talented, and better then the boss in some areas...I had a young guy working for me that did outstanding ceramic work...just beautiful. But he decided he was burned out, and works as a forklift driver for a food processor....$9 an hour...just plain stupid. No ambition, very little work ethics, but his talent was and will always be construction. Would I hire him back? Nope....he tried the either or else with me....my answer? No, but....I will hire you as a sub contractor...pay you what you want, but you are on your own....since I knew he was "burning out" anyway, giving him more money would have simply prolonged the problem of the apathy on the job. There is a lot of truth to the idea "you cannot fix stupid".


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

BMAN said:


> As far as the company morale all the other guys are happy and most have been with me for a long time. This guy comes to me with a lot of credentials and tells me that he wants to show me what he can bring to the table. He did bring some great things to the table from a business owner standpoint. He brought in some work to the company by forging a relationship with another paint company (those jobs have yet to realize a profit and I am now doubting they will. (they did keep guys working year round though) The bottom line is that I don't think that I can bid competitively with someone at that rate.
> The one guy (Jason) who said that he hung sheet rock in the eighties for $23 hour forgot one thing. Kodak, GM Xerox, baush and lomb and many others are mostly gone now and so are the wages that those companies paid and so on down the line. So wages aorund here have fallen way back thus the reason that housing never went through the roof.
> 
> If we had 25 employees I would need someone at that rate doing a lot more things and we could afford it year round. Sure I could afford to carry him at that rate all summer but then what? and there is also the thing with the other employees not liking him.
> ...


If I read all that right, you are making a decision on economic, business grounds. That's good. Then you end it with a remark that shows you are making the decision on other (non-business) grounds. So which is it? Hard-headed business decision or (ego?)

John


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

john elliott said:


> If I read all that right, you are making a decision on economic, business grounds. That's good. Then you end it with a remark that shows you are making the decision on other (non-business) grounds. So which is it? Hard-headed business decision or (ego?)
> 
> John


THAT is MY point from the get-go! Put yer Johnson away and weight out the situation.


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## BMAN (Aug 21, 2006)

I would say both, If I know the business can't sustain it then thats the justification for not giving the raise. If I know the other employees don't respect his management style thats more sound business reason. If I know he is willing to leverage me thats even more business reason. The fact is I have talked to him about his process several times and he has still continued to bullhead his way on forward doing it his way and letting his jobs drop below margin or break even. Then he says he wants to help me run the business and take some of the load and he needs a $4 raise to do it. Why would I want to do this with someone who won't listen and doesnt make us money, and pisses all the guys off micro managing them? Why would I want that? As far as the afraid comment, hardly. The only thing that would cause fear is if I wasn't willing to start over from scratch with pot to piss in and a brush in my hand. NOT! (in Borat accent)


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## General-Lee (Apr 1, 2008)

*My two cents.*

Sounds to me he padded his work history! Why would he take the job with you for less if he wasn't having trouble finding a job. I bet $5 this is why he lost his last job(the attitude problem your having with him). He is an a$$, thinks he so smart but I doubt he could run his own business. Sounds to me he's forcing a partnership. Pay him what he's worth to you and take back control.After a spell I would (and have)let a guy who won't do things my way go, but thats just me.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Run an add for a new lead guy, let him walk.:thumbsup:


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

General-Lee said:


> Sounds to me he padded his work history! Why would he take the job with you for less if he wasn't having trouble finding a job. I bet $5 this is why he lost his last job(the attitude problem your having with him). He is an a$$, thinks he so smart but I doubt he could run his own business. Sounds to me he's forcing a partnership. Pay him what he's worth to you and take back control.After a spell I would (and have)let a guy who won't do things my way go, but thats just me.



That actually sounds like a very probable scenario!!


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## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

Micro managers are bad for business. Micro managers have an underlying insecurity problem. He sounds like a cancer.


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## GSE (Aug 24, 2007)

Jason W said:


> Run an add for a new lead guy, let him walk.:thumbsup:


 
What we do, is pay just above what the area is paying, so if we loose someone, we can replace them same day, the rest of the guys are wating to see if you give in to the his demand, then if you do, the trouble has just started, thank him for his time and show him the door.

When you said he was from out of down, a flag went up, how far did he have to travel, to hide his last set of problems?

My bet is if you ran a background check on him, you would find a broken work record, and maby even worse.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

The more I hear about this guy, the more I deduce a probably substance abuse issue.

Micro-Manager
Out-of-Towner
Lies
Etc.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

BMAN said:


> The fact is I have talked to him about his process several times and he has still continued to bullhead his way on forward doing it his way and letting his jobs drop below margin or break even. Then he says he wants to help me run the business and take some of the load and he needs a $4 raise to do it. Why would I want to do this with someone who won't listen and doesnt make us money, and pisses all the guys off micro managing them? Why would I want that?




Uh,HELLO! Why didn't you say this earlier? :laughing:

-- Doesn't follow directions
-- Creates dissension
-- Can't work productively

Why are you asking what you should do?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

It doesn't matter if he is good or bad, ultimatums can have only one answer, or you are not running your own company. And every request for a raise is not an ultimatum unless the request has the words, "or I will quit" tacked on to it.

Requests for raises, perks, etc, are normal and expected, ultimatiums on the other hand, can not be allowed, period.


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

George Z said:


> It's an ultimatum,
> he has to go.


id tell him that when you hired him you told him you couldnt do the 20 and hour.
if his production doesnt cover his wages your pissin in the wind at 15.00.
id tell him good luck,cya later.


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

MALCO.New.York said:


> The more I hear about this guy, the more I deduce a probably substance abuse issue.
> 
> Micro-Manager
> Out-of-Towner
> ...


Totally false. There are no substance abusers/alcoholics in the construction field. Never has been.


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## SpecOne (Apr 3, 2008)

Seems after getting more info from the OP, the thing to do is let him walk.

But it must be said, as far as salary goes for good employees, you, as a business owner, can only afford to pay what your market will bear. If you can only pay $15/hr while still being competitive, then that's all that you can pay. Paying more risks you losing money, possibly forcing you out of business, and putting everybody that works for you in jeopardy of not getting a paycheck. Now if you can afford to pay $20/hr and can pay it without risking losing business, and don't, well you're just being tight. If an employee comes to me and requests a raise (not demand), I pull their performance evaluations and go over it, are they performing, are they attaining their goals that were mutually agreed on at their last performance review, if they are and I can afford to pay it and the market can bear it, then they are gonna get their raise. I will note all of this is known up front and is in the company policy manual. I strongly recommend no matter how big or small you are to have a company policy manual and to do annual performance evaluations (to include the employee setting goals for himself for the following year). Not only does this protect the business owner but it protects the employee as well. Everyone knows what his responsibility is, from the owner all the way down to newbie that just hired on. This keeps ego from being an issue.


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> It doesn't matter if he is good or bad, ultimatums can have only one answer, or you are not running your own company. And every request for a raise is not an ultimatum unless the request has the words, "or I will quit" tacked on to it.
> 
> Requests for raises, perks, etc, are normal and expected, ultimatiums on the other hand, can not be allowed, period.


So,let's suppose an employee has been offered a job at a higher rate by a competitior. So he approaches his current employer and asks for a raise to match that offered by the competitor. So, are you saying that the employee should _keep quiet _about the fact that he is going to take the other job (in other words, leave your employment) if he doesn't get a matching rate?

John


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

pfloyd said:


> Totally false. There are no substance abusers/alcoholics in the construction field. Never has been.


I stand corrected....The construction Trade is clean, green and above scrutiny!!!

Bastions of Society!!:whistling


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

No John, but that is not an ultimatium, either. He is offering you a chance to retain his services, not demanding a raise or else, if you can see the distinction.


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## Ranger Rohland (Jan 28, 2005)

George Z said:


> It's an ultimatum,
> he has to go.


George is right on the money. This is policy. Nip it.

I would call him now and plan to meet him in person. Explain the situation and thank him for his service. Let him know that he can use you as a reference while searching for employment.

Might even consider dropping some small coin on him as you hold the door on his way out.


Tom Rohland, Jr.


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

pfloyd said:


> Totally false. There are no substance abusers/alcoholics in the construction field. Never has been.


If it wasn't for construction, I wouldn't be employed. Well, maybe at the State or Fed level in the laundry :laughing:

I'm amazed at the level of arrogance in some of these posts, when most all of us are no better and many times worse than the fellow in question. Of course, you got the college grads who actually enjoy the construction field in all its glory and high pay.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Jason W said:


> Run an add for a new lead guy, let him walk.:thumbsup:


 
Good luck finding a lead guy for $16/hr

Everybody in the workforce is a grown man/woman. They have their own business (home) to run. Firing a guy for giving an ultimatum seems like beings scared to me. 
What for? An employee is free to say I am worth $20 or I walk. Don't be intimidated by that. 
If he's not then let him go. What's the big deal? 

I have been in that position before: in both shoes 


On the one hand I split the demand with the employee. (he was underpayed) 


As an employee I gave a big ultimatum. I was polite respectful and proper. I explained that I wasn't stupid and I knew how valuable I was. I demanded more. I was worth more. 

The owner decided I wasn't worth the raise. I moved on. No hard feelings. I'm my own boss now making way more than the hourly SUCKERS. 
I will never be hourly again. 



Bottom line every person does what is best for them. At all times. Business and employees. That is reality. The employee doesn't give a crap about the companys bottom line. The company doesn't care if the employeee has to drive a 1984 Subaru station wagon. (been there)

$16/hr though Hope you at least give him a reach around.arty:


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

I will say it again...........IT IS BUSINESS AS BUSINESS IS DONE. We ALL strive for more!

HANDLE IT!


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## ChillaWatt (Apr 2, 2006)

Wow. Lots of advice here. Some good, some egotistical and bad.

First, you have to do what's best for your business period. And it seems like this guy is an asset to you. Otherwise he'd be gone. Teetor had a good idea. Sit him down and communicate with him. I'm sure this employee of yours has no idea of your feelings, in terms of his work habits. Pesonally I would give him $25/hr just for being man enough to give me an "ultimatum." You have your leaders and your non-leaders. This man, from everything you've said, is a leader. Who can survive on $16/hr. anyways? How much does he take home after taxes? You would know how much. Does he have a family? Do you afford him health insurance? Etc. Maybe he's got a kid that needs braces or a fat mortgage payment. Questions you may know and should take into account. But guaranteed, once you communicate your position and how you feel about his work habits he will straighten them out. You'll be amazed what a raise in pay and responsibilities will do for a man's morale. You'll see the results.

Secondly, I don't believe in that 'mob-rule' mentality here. None of us actually know how private your employee's ultimatum was. If it were me, I would've kept it private. Not only is it embarassing, it's noone elses business. But I don't think everyone is gonna come at you with their own ultimatums.

Thirdly, I wanna give my 2 cents on the term "ultimatum", and how it relates to the business world. However you wanna phrase it - ultimatum, deadline, final offer, demands, whatever; don't take offense to it. He happens to think himself worthy of more pay. Sure, it's your business and you call the shots. You offer a service or product and you set the price. He is no different. He offers a service to you as well. You don't have to take his offer, the same as your customers who can go down the road and find someone else. It's called free enterprise and you see it everyday. From pro ahletes who hold out until THEIR demands are met all the way down to your $4/hr. case here.

Chilla


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

ChillaWatt said:


> Wow. Lots of advice here. Some good, some egotistical and bad.
> 
> First, you have to do what's best for your business period. And it seems like this guy is an asset to you. Otherwise he'd be gone. Teetor had a good idea. Sit him down and communicate with him. I'm sure this employee of yours has no idea of your feelings, in terms of his work habits. Pesonally I would give him $25/hr just for being man enough to give me an "ultimatum." You have your leaders and your non-leaders. This man, from everything you've said, is a leader. Who can survive on $16/hr. anyways? How much does he take home after taxes? You would know how much. Does he have a family? Do you afford him health insurance? Etc. Maybe he's got a kid that needs braces or a fat mortgage payment. Questions you may know and should take into account. But guaranteed, once you communicate your position and how you feel about his work habits he will straighten them out. You'll be amazed what a raise in pay and responsibilities will do for a man's morale. You'll see the results.
> 
> ...



Completely agree!!!

But is this guy an asset or is the OP just being a chump and a chicken? (no offense to OP. Just a possible wake-up)


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## tin man (Mar 13, 2008)

I would look for replacement frist,there are many people out of work in my area dont know about yours.
_________________________________________________
Massachusetts replacement windows and vinyl siding


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

Tom Rohland said:


> George is right on the money. This is policy. Nip it.
> 
> I would call him now and plan to meet him in person. Explain the situation and thank him for his service. Let him know that he can use you as a reference while searching for employment.
> 
> ...


 
Street Beggars !?:laughing:


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

I find it ironic how many business men here would fire this guy and risk paying UI (have you seen the help wanted ads lately).

If you want him out, just run an add and tell him you're not going to give him more money, tell him your looking for a new lead guy. He will leave on his own and you pay nothing to UI.


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## Stickman (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know about where your are at but here in Jersey even if he quits he can still get his unemployment. He will however take a 6 week penalty for quiting or being fired.


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## Stickman (Mar 7, 2008)

*FOr New Jersey 

http://lwd.dol.state.nj.us/labor/forms_pdfs/ui/b426.pdf

Disqualification/Ineligibility Conditions*
There are certain conditions under which a claimant may be disqualified from receiving unemployment insurance
benefits. These reasons and the penalties involved are listed below:
(1) Voluntarily leaving work without good cause attributable to such work. The claimant is disqualified for the
week in which the quit occurs and for each week thereafter until he/she has earned in employment at least six
times the claim’s weekly benefit rate in at least four weeks of employment. If the claimant is subsequently
separated from this employer for other than lack of work, a new determination will be made.
(2) Discharge for misconduct connected with the work. The claimant is disqualified for the week in which the
misconduct occurs and for the five weeks which immediately follow such week.
(3) Discharge for gross misconduct connected with the work, i.e., a work-related act punishable as a crime of
the first, second, third or fourth degree under the New Jersey Code of Criminal Justice. The claimant is
disqualified for the week in which the discharge occurs and for each week thereafter until he/she has earned
in four or more weeks of covered employment at least six times the claim’s weekly benefit rate. In addition,
wages earned with that employer prior to the day of discharge cannot be used for benefit purposes or to remove
a disqualification.
(4) Failure, without good cause, to apply for or accept suitable work. A disqualification shall continue for the
week in which such failure occurred and for the three weeks which immediately follow such week.
(5) Unemployed due to a labor dispute. Such disqualification continues for the duration of the labor dispute or
until it has been determined that conditions have changed so that there is no longer substantial curtailment of
activity at the place of employment. However, if the employees were "locked out" by the employer, were not
on strike immediately prior ot the lockout. and have been directed by recognized union leadership to work
under the preexisting terms and conditions of employment, the employees may be eligible for benefits.
(6) Benefits received illegally as the result of false or fraudulent representation. The claimant is disqualified
from benefits for one year from the date of discovery by the Division, and subject to a fine of 25 percent of
the total amount of benefits received illegally or $20 for each week of benefits received illegally, whichever
is greater.
(7) Full-time attendance at a public or other nonprofit educational institution by a claimant whose training has
not been approved by the Division to enhance the claimant's employment opportunity and who did not earn
a major portion of his/her base year wages while attending school. The claimant is disqualified until he/she
is no longer a full-time student.
In addition to the above disqualifications, there are reasons why an individual may be held ineligible for benefits.
These reasons do not involve the employer, as contrasted with the above disqualifications which generally do involve
the employer. Ineligibility may be for a fixed period or may continue throughout the life of a claim or until the facts
change. Reasons for ineligibility are:
43
(1) Failure to demonstrate availability to work.
(2) Failure to make an active search for work when required by the Division.
(3) Unable to work. (See Chapter II, Section 6, on Temporary Disability Insurance.)
(4) Failure to report to the One-Stop Career Center, as directed by the Division; or failure to be available for
scheduled telephone appointments.
(5) Any individual who is an officer of a corporation, or who has more than a 5 percent equitable or debt
interest in the corporation, and who has base year wages with the corporation will not be considered
“unemployed” in any week during the individual’s term or ownership in the corporation. The claim will
be invalid and the individual will be ineligible for benefits.
Should the corporation permanently cease operations and file for formal dissolution in accordance with the
New Jersey Business Corporation Act, N.J.S.A. 14A:l‑1 et seq.; or file for bankruptcy under Chapter 7 of
the United States Bankruptcy Code, or should the individual’s corporate officer/owner status be terminated,
the individual could be considered unemployed and may be eligible for a valid unemployment claim.
The Division must rely on you, the employer, to furnish complete and accurate information concerning the
separation of any employee, in order that the provisions of the law may be applied to the facts of the claim before making
a determination as to whether the claimant can be paid. It is for this reason that you are notified when a claim has been
filed.
Whenever a separation issue is involved, the employer is requested to participate in the initial fact-finding
interview. It is in your interest to have a member of your organization, who has knowledge regarding the circumstances
of the separation, participate in such interview. The interview may be scheduled to be conducted in-person, or by
telephone. If it is not possible to participate in the interview, complete and accurate information should be provided
by you when so requested.


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

All 50 states run out of budget this year (millions$$). Therefore, all people (no discrimination for poor, handicapped, or unemployed) MUST get in long lines at state offices waiting for welfare, benefits, food stamps, checks, etc.

Considered that guy is LUCKY that he still gets a job while others still starve/look for working. He's an arrogant idiot and he deserves it.... unless he waits till 2010 (economy UP) then he can demand another ultimatum and everyone's happy to give him!

When gasoline prices up, everyone will CUT everyone's throat, no matter what! (i.e., boss cuts employee, and employee cuts boss)


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## ChillaWatt (Apr 2, 2006)

Jason W said:


> I find it ironic how many business men here would fire this guy and risk paying UI (have you seen the help wanted ads lately).
> 
> If you want him out, just run an add and tell him you're not going to give him more money, tell him your looking for a new lead guy. He will leave on his own and you pay nothing to UI.



I know, isn't that amazing! Dude speaks up and for doing so gets fired. Even the animosity that act would create I don't think this guy is gonna settle for measely UI payments, especially if his regular wages aren't cutting it. He'll just go somewhere else. Send him to Cali, I'll hire him. :thumbsup:

Chilla


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Stickman said:


> I don't know about where your are at but here in Jersey even if he quits he can still get his unemployment. He will however take a 6 week penalty for quiting or being fired.


Doesn't work that way in NY or VT. A person can not collect UI when there is work available to them. In fact when the insured writes down his work history, all former employers are notified and if just one of them says they will take him back, they can not collect.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

It is kinda funny how people forget that not only is the price of running a business going up, but it is also costing the people who work for you more to live also.
I have demanded raises from people I have worked for before, no big deal, most of them wont give you a dime unless you make them. 
It isnt always about production either, are you asking this guy to do things that the other guys making the same wage or close to that wage are not asked to do. 
My old boss was one of those people who thought I should drop to my knees and polish his knob just for having the honor of working for him. You cant rule a company with an iron fist and expect the peasents to fall into place. If he isnt worth the money then dont pay him, if he is worth it then pay him. We all want to make more money, so pay him or tell him no. Nobody here knows all of the details so even the smartest of us couldnt help you make your choice.


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## BMAN (Aug 21, 2006)

In reading all the advice I have considered a lot of things. Most important is this though, I feel that there are two other people in my company that I would be willing to pay more money to have that "right hand" position before this guy. His best quality is training good guys and making the loyal to the company. However he is very bad at handling seasoned guys and usually pisses them off. His loyalty is a good trait also. On the downside he is moody and a serious control freak (thast why the seasoned guys can't stand him). He is also in my opinion an alcoholic (doesnt seem to affect his work except a couple no shows in six months) So Having weighed is upside and downside I can't in good conscience give him what he needs and also more contorl over my people who really do a great job.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

BMAN said:


> In reading all the advice I have considered a lot of things. Most important is this though, I feel that there are two other people in my company that I would be willing to pay more money to have that "right hand" position before this guy. His best quality is training good guys and making the loyal to the company. However he is very bad at handling seasoned guys and usually pisses them off. His loyalty is a good trait also. On the downside he is moody and a serious control freak (thast why the seasoned guys can't stand him). He is also in my opinion an alcoholic (doesnt seem to affect his work except a couple no shows in six months) So Having weighed is upside and downside I can't in good conscience give him what he needs and also more contorl over my people who really do a great job.



Now that you have figured out what you already knew............


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## Ranger Rohland (Jan 28, 2005)

BMAN said:


> In reading all the advice I have considered a lot of things. Most important is this though, I feel that there are two other people in my company that I would be willing to pay more money to have that "right hand" position before this guy. His best quality is training good guys and making the loyal to the company. However he is very bad at handling seasoned guys and usually pisses them off. His loyalty is a good trait also. On the downside he is moody and a serious control freak (thast why the seasoned guys can't stand him). He is also in my opinion an alcoholic (doesnt seem to affect his work except a couple no shows in six months) So Having weighed is upside and downside I can't in good conscience give him what he needs and also more contorl over my people who really do a great job.




Make a decision, BMAN.

He doesn't follow your directions. Period.
Show him the door.

Put your boot up his fourth point of contact! (That's buttocks for all of you non-airborne personnel.)

If he is as good as he thinks he is then he won't have trouble finding a job.

End of story!

NEXT.


Tom Rohland, Jr.
Rangers Lead The Way


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

BMAN said:


> In reading all the advice I have considered a lot of things. Most important is this though, I feel that there are two other people in my company that I would be willing to pay more money to have that "right hand" position before this guy. His best quality is training good guys and making the loyal to the company. However he is very bad at handling seasoned guys and usually pisses them off. His loyalty is a good trait also. On the downside he is moody and a serious control freak (thast why the seasoned guys can't stand him). He is also in my opinion an alcoholic (doesnt seem to affect his work except a couple no shows in six months) So Having weighed is upside and downside I can't in good conscience give him what he needs and also more contorl over my people who really do a great job.


If you think you will find a lead guy that everyone likes, you're nuts! Think about that, really. You tell this lead what you expect for quality and productivity. He does his job to try and tune things up. How can he be in a popular position? Everyone thinks they know more than him, everyone gets critiqued by him, so why wouldn't they have their chance to chime in about him? 

You should expect that, don't let your other guys decide who runs the job. You decide, sounds like the battle you chose isn't the battle you need to win at all.


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

Jason W said:


> If you think you will find a lead guy that everyone likes, you're nuts! Think about that, really. You tell this lead what you expect for quality and productivity. He does his job to try and tune things up. How can he be in a popular position? Everyone thinks they know more than him, everyone gets critiqued by him, so why wouldn't they have their chance to chime in about him?
> 
> You should expect that, don't let your other guys decide who runs the job. You decide, sounds like the battle you chose isn't the battle you need to win at all.


Exactly. In fact, if the crew doesn't like him, there may be a wholly different reason than what the boss thinks.

I've worked in some very, very disfunctional crews and to a one, the crew led the boss around by the nose covering up their own gross incompetence. Other crews were freakin' awesome with a holy terror as a supervisor---it had a "us against them" flavor and worked well most of the time. 

Funny thing is, if I weren't in such a small region, I would pattern my crew like that. Here. I pay commission with a fair number of controls and either you make it or ya don't. 

Also, and this is a point for this thread, is that I don't listen to gossip and bogus snitches get the boot.


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## blel0906 (Apr 14, 2008)

I have to agree with many of the posters ultamatums don't work having not been their or knowing how the guy approached you I will share my experiences. 

Had and employee that was making $16 came to us and said he was offered a job paying $25/hr and was going to have to take it. We sat down with the employee and explained that we value his work but at this time our business could not bear that increase in pay HOWEVER because we did value him as an employee agreed to a $1/hr increase and set some goals to get him to around $20 and hour within a year...It worked he stayed and said he was happy with the outcome as he really liked his job with us and did not want to leave...within one year we got his hourly rate to $19/hr he did eventually quit and started his own business as a competitor...if this is a concern consider having your employees sign non competes..

...Had anouther guy whom like yours wasn't all that well liked by our crew pitched a fit when we hired someone to be his supervisor came to us and told us he had a golden multi mllion dollar opportunity put on his lap....OUr response...Wow thats great so when are you going to give notice...the guy turned white and stumbled well I haven't made a decision yet...so we told him to think about it and that we would appreciate two weeks notice...two days later he came back with a wonderful attitude which was very short lived we terminated the guy about 6 months later mostly due to his attitude...

My advice is consider the type of person your dealing with, consider where is he going to go and make the money he is demanding, don't know about your area but jobs aren't plentiful in our area right now and their are a whole lot of skilled tradesmen out of work right now waiting in line to take an open position...If you feel that this guy has something that you can work with then I would sit down with him and set some goals to get him to where he wants to be but I would never give in completely...anouther thing you must consider is once he's making that $20/hr where does he have to go so in a year when he hasn't gotten any increases what is he going to demand then..


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## BMAN (Aug 21, 2006)

The results. 
I told him that the company doesnt need another boss driving around right now and that we could not a) Afford to lose his production and b) afford a $20 an hour guy. I offered him a $1 and that I would make sure he enough hours to get the total weekly $ he needed. He is also now the official trainer of any new employees we hire (his best quality).
He accepted all of this. Thanks for all the advice guys. I think I used a bit of all of it resolving this issue.


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