# How do YOU Estimate?



## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

I sat down with a friend this week and we went over his painting business from the inside out. I was surprised to see that he estimated jobs by the surface area square foot. Then added for 2 coats... difficulty.. etc..

I've always estimated by the hour, but his system seemed to work fine. 

How do you estimate a job and what are the advantages and disadvantages to each system?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Nathan I estimate by the hour for small jobs. I ask myself how many hours will this take to do and how many guys? I know I've never estimated painting but I think it only seems logical to estimate by the square footage. After a job or two you know how many square feet you can paint in an hour.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

I do it both ways. Grumpy said it all, you know how much you can spread in an hour. Small jobs, I figure actual job costs, as in labor, materials, and tack on OH/MU. Large jobs, I look at the sq. ft., figure how long for one man to spread one gallon etc. After I figure it that way, I look back at other large jobs we've done and compare. And it depends on what mood I'm in :cheesygri


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Oh yeah I forgot about mood. That's a big factor. 

Today I added $1,000 to an estimate at the very last minute because the guy made me break out my prices like a menu. I usually don't mind but it was a 3 page estimate.


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## ABA Const (Mar 6, 2004)

i do it both ways also. small jobs tend to be hourly estimate, bigger sq ft, i use the same thing for doing acoustical ceilings, per sq foot and small jobs hourly. I agree also mood, and sometimes i will throw in a travel charge as a seperate line item.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Yes travel is important if we are working miles and miles away. Typically all of our jobs are within a certain area that is minimal travel time. If I have to pay a whole crew to drive an hour there and an hour back, damned sure that's going to be part of my estimate.


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

ProWallGuy said:


> I do it both ways. Grumpy said it all, you know how much you can spread in an hour. Small jobs, I figure actual job costs, as in labor, materials, and tack on OH/MU. Large jobs, I look at the sq. ft., figure how long for one man to spread one gallon etc. After I figure it that way, I look back at other large jobs we've done and compare. And it depends on what mood I'm in :cheesygri


So you charge differently for base board and doors/windows right? 

Do you have a set rate per door/window and charge by the foot for baseboard?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Gah painting baseboard is a pain in the anus. I hate being on my ands and knees. LOL I still havent touched up my base board after about 10 months since I painted them originally because I don't want to get on my hands and knees.  Pshhh Baseboards!


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

> So you charge differently for base board and doors/windows right?


Yes, I have a loose formula for 'items', but those all depend on many things, such as, 1 coat same color, stain to paint 3 coats, are we painting the walls, or hanging paper against them, are they french windows, 6 panel doors or louvered bi folds, need no prep or X hours of prep? I'm pretty sure most professional estimators would outright laugh at how I arrive at a price, but I was self-taught in the bidding part, and more often than not, my prices come in right around everyone else, so I reckon I'm doing something right.

I've looked at the PDCA Estimating Manuals, and the 2004 Paint Cost Estimator books, and a bunch more, and I'm am always trying to 'upgrade' my estimating skills to be more structured, so I could use an excel program to punch in figures and spit out a price, but it seems to be so many variables that I just give up and do my thing like I always have. 

I have been recently reading a book by Michael Stone called Markup and Profit for Contractors which has some pretty good info in it. But I still say, my pricing is pretty bizarre compared to most 'professional estimators'.

And God help the customer that stands me up for our first appointment :evil:


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Estimating is the toughest part of this business. My contracts have so many caveats that I am suprised that anyone would sign them. Kind of like the transmission guys, we won't know until we open it up.
Once behind the walls you can have damage from termites, water, rot and everthing has to be brought up to new code. Plumbing, electrics, everything.
I work on a reputation of fine workmanship, I am not cheap and I make no bones about it. 
In the end, I lose my @ss once or twice a year but what I make on other jobs covers the loss plus you can write the losses off, in time. It's tough the first few years but you get better and the 'rollover' goes into effect which evens things out.


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## hatchet (Oct 27, 2003)

I agree Teetorbilt - estimating is something that can make you huge profits or put you into bankruptcy. It's definately not something that people take lightly. Unless you're the only one in 1000 miles that performs a certain task then the mentality has to be - "count everything once and only once". Miss something and you lose money - count too many and you lose the job (in a competitive market anyway). 
If the company is well established and is working, like Teetorbilt stated, off reputation then profits can increase without losing jobs. It's definately the best situation to be in. And you have to be honest with yourself - don't say "I do the best quality work in the country" without knowing it and believing it. Look around and see what quality standards are - and compare to your quality vs cost.


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## Mark (Oct 17, 2003)

Back when we were contracting I always did my estimates by wall square footage and put in the trim, doors and weird stuff by the hour. It only takes a couple jobs to tell you if you need to adjust pricing or not. The benifit of sq ft pricing is you don't have the customer standing there looking at his watch if you wanna go get a coffee or scratch you ass.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

> The benifit of sq ft pricing is you don't have the customer standing there looking at his watch if you wanna go get a coffee or scratch you ass.


True. I never, repeat never, do T & M jobs. No way to make a good profit on these jobs, and someone is always watching to make sure every second is accounted for.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Pro we do T&M and we make good profit. You have to figure your profit into each hour, plus have some kind of mobilization charge to cover overhead. In my industry roofers die for T&M contracts.


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

We need Harry here to discuss this topic!


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

Speaking of Harry, anybody been considering taking his online estimating course?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Harry?


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

Harry Carter, estimating guru


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

For what industry?


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

Pretty sure its mainly painting. But I know his father was known throughout all the trades as the 'Godfather' of modern estimating. They used to run a school called Carter's School of Estimating. I'll check on his website, his online course might be for all trades. I know of drywall contractors that have taken it in the past. Actually, ask Nathan if its cool, I'll post his website here.


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

ProWallGuy said:


> Don't forget the PITA factors for those real fun clients.


Oh Yeah!
 
Got those too!


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

ProWallGuy said:


> Don't forget the PITA factors for those real fun clients.


Bah...I tried to post up part of an invoice, but I couldn't do it so I'll tell you
I have a Customer I.D. 10-T on some invoices
That explains why the labor rates and material mark-ups on that invoice are much higher than the regular rates and mark-ups
Customer ID10T
:cheesygri


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

> I have a Customer I.D. 10-T on some invoices
> Customer ID10T


Dude, I just swiped that. What a classic!!!!

Way back in the day, I worked at a pizza joint. The owner got tired of us in the back, ogling all the hotties that came in, saying, "Hey, check out the chick at the counter". So we made up a code, '10-90' was for the honeys. 'Code' was for their location. Hot chick in aisle 4 would be '10-90 code 4'.I still catch myself saying that when out in public. Wow, she was a true 10-90 :cheesygri


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## DaveH (Jun 2, 2006)

I went to Carter's School in New Hampshire. I learned from Harry Sr. He passed away a few years ago but his son is still running the school. Go to drywallnetwork.com This is his forum. You can also look up the Carter's School of Estimating online and find him. Paintingand drywall are the specialties but all phases can benifit from the principles taught by him.
Dave


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## KellyPainting (May 30, 2006)

*Good topic*

I'm fairly new to this site and one of the best things i get out of it is the Topics like these. I'm a verry anal painter who has to has everything PERFECT. I'm been lucky enough to work with paint co. in the past who do high end work and take pride in ihe fact that it's as best as can be. I've been on my own for only a year and to look back now at the bids I did 6 months ago is pathedic... my prices are increasing every week to the point where I wont give a price for work 2 months down the road cuz I know I'll bid better then. I still bid by just looking at the rooms and have some set guidlines for cieilings and doors but they are still climbing. New construction is always bid by the foot and I check the amount myself cuz I don't trust anyone. But as far as bidding goes you guys are teaching me something every day or so. I'm primaraly by the day now.... try to get $400 just for me. Unless ofcourse I talk to slick and he sets me straight.
I'ts important that we educate people like me to keep the prices where they are, and lowballing a thing of the past.

I'm actually going to a Ben Moore event Tues for a lecture on Bidding.


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## KellyPainting (May 30, 2006)

*Daily rate.*

Sure there is alot about estimating ... but once you figure out exactly what you can acomplish in a day... you must have a daily rate for yourself
can't we just multiply THAT by the amount of days it will take? (if you are working alone)
What is the average daily rate? or your daily rate? and where are you from?................. Or is that privilaged information?


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## jensenconstruction (Mar 30, 2006)

our shop rate is $65/hr or $500/day. we only use day rates for small projects that will only take a day or two for everything else I use my historical data collected over the years. I'm in the San Francisco area


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## DaveH (Jun 2, 2006)

Kelly,
If you are a sole proprietor of a company or close to, estimating is pretty easy, at least the labor portion. It becomes difficult when you have to figure out what the guy in the field is going to accomplish in a day. You know the guy who takes a stroke with a brush and then thinks "I wonder what my girlfriend is doing right now...boy I sure am hungry...look at that new tool belt that guy has on...I really need to get more sleep tonight...OH! I need more paint on my brush! **Repeat** Then you have the guy on the other side of the room who takes a brush stroke and thinks "Man if I had another arm I could do more...If I had a brush in each hand man I could fly!" Somewhere in between lies a labor rate and a p.o.'d super.


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## KellyPainting (May 30, 2006)

*Rates*

Thanks for your Imput guys ... I'm just me and a aprentice helper... 
So I'd say I'm just about $400-500 per day ( not that it ever works out that way) But I never figure in setup or cleanup so I'm still working out the bugs.
By the way Went to the Ben Moore Show last night... was pretty good 
(my 1st one so what do I know) The lecture on how to sell at higher prices was great... LOTS OF COOL INFO.. I even bought the guys book.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

Kelly who was the speaker, and what were the books names

thanks
dave mac


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## KellyPainting (May 30, 2006)

*Show*

HOW TO SELL AT MARGINS HIGHER THAN YOUR COMPETITORS
winning every sale at full price, rate or fee.

by Lawrance L. Steinmetz, Phd


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## Jesse Carter (Nov 29, 2008)

Just because you price the job based on atime estimate does not mean you have to present it to the customer that way. Also, I am with the guys who said they price both ways. Sometimes I estimate T & M and use footage pricing to find an average between the two, depending on the situation. Every job is a different monster.


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## Jesse Carter (Nov 29, 2008)

how do you estimate? overestimate!


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

Jesse Carter said:


> Sometimes I estimate T & M and use footage pricing to find an average between the two, depending on the situation.


I do this too. 
Good to see that you are using the search feature. Good thread brought back to life


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## Danahy (Oct 17, 2006)

I use the base +/- way, I figure I've painted a ton of rooms, what is a decent base price for each... Example if a kitchen is $200 base, plus P&O, plus materials, the only thing i look for when I'm walking into the kitchen, is it more or less then my base price. Makes it consistant, makes it fast. When extra's come up after, like trim (after the walls have already been done), I clear up the existing bill-get paid, then begin charging T&M (my time rate is nicely priced so I don't mind this at all), then I'll say "k, the clock's on for the extra's, you let me know when were done"....


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