# Copper vs PVC



## BenBuilt (Aug 14, 2008)

A customer asked me other day why copper is used so much more than PVC. I assumed it was a strength and longevity issue (which is what I told her). But I realized I don't actually know. PVC holds up pretty well from my limited exp.
What are the main advantages of copper? TIA.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

BenBuilt said:


> A customer asked me other day why copper is used so much more than PVC. I assumed it was a strength and longevity issue (which is what I told her). But I realized I don't actually know. PVC holds up pretty well from my limited exp.
> What are the main advantages of copper? TIA.


Are you talking inside or outside the house?


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## BenBuilt (Aug 14, 2008)

Inside. Outside I could see copper far outlasting pvc outside.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

BenBuilt said:


> Inside. Outside I could see copper far outlasting pvc outside.


Well, you can't use PVC for water lines inside anywhere so I assume you are talking about the drain lines. The only advantage copper has in DWV is a smaller OD. Oh, and that it meets code in a few places where PVC DWV is not allowed by code.

Otherwise the cost is extremely prohibitive for your average residential application.

BTW, copper does not last outside in some soils.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Copper doesn't burn.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Copper doesn't burn.


I know that. But in a residential unit, that is barely an advantage if any.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

An unintended side benefit is that 
copper has germicidal properties
lacking in galvanized iron and plastic. :thumbsup:


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

22rifle said:


> I know that. But in a residential unit, that is barely an advantage if any.


It is if that residential unit is in a 30 story building with a bunch of other residential units.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

neolitic said:


> An unintended side benefit is that
> copper has germicidal properties
> lacking in galvanized iron and plastic. :thumbsup:


And what does that help in a DWV system?


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> It is if that residential unit is in a 30 story building with a bunch of other residential units.


Yeah. I should have said single unit residential which is what I was thinking.

Even then, how much difference is it going to make? Especially if properly fire blocked, etc.


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## BenBuilt (Aug 14, 2008)

Thanks for the info so far.

The customer wanted to know why PVC wasn't allowed by code for water supply lines. (And I did too)

Does code allow PVC to be used (for supply) in garages or ag buildings?
I've seen it used there but that doesn't mean it was code.

Fire is a good reason to use copper for supply although I'm not sure you wouldn't want water spraying all over the place is your house is burning down.


Didn't know about the germicide thing. That's cool. TIA for the info.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

22rifle said:


> And what does that help in a DWV system?


Probably not very much, but
I thought we were talking about
water supply....
at least I was. :laughing:


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

PVC is not allowed inside the building, it's not rated for hot water dirtro, now cpcv is ok for use inside the building.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

BenBuilt said:


> Thanks for the info so far.
> 
> The customer wanted to know why PVC wasn't allowed by code for water supply lines. (And I did too)
> 
> ...


PVC can be used for non=potable water, like for an irrigation system, but PVC will leech into the water that sits in the line, making the water taste like plastic residue. Some areas allow CPVC for water supply, or the poly product PEX, but not regular PVC.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

PVC is allow for water service outside only under UPC.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

22rifle said:


> Yeah. I should have said single unit residential which is what I was thinking.
> 
> Even then, how much difference is it going to make? Especially if properly fire blocked, etc.


A stack that is on fire is going to carry the fire through the roof whether there is firestop or not, or at least that is the findings of tests by the CFD.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

BenBuilt said:


> Thanks for the info so far.
> 
> The customer wanted to know why PVC wasn't allowed by code for water supply lines. (And I did too)
> 
> ...


*For the sake of NOT wrecking your plumbers life...why not just have him call the homeowner and explain it all?*

*Each of us has a seperate code, some area's might allow PVC, others may not.*
*IF your going by what we say and then tell it to the homeowner, your plumber might do something completely different....with a homeowner standing around looking over his shoulder with the idea he's doing it wrong.*

*Have your plumber talk to your customer, BEST solution.*


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> A stack that is on fire is going to carry the fire through the roof whether there is firestop or not, or at least that is the findings of tests by the CFD.


That's why you use Studor Vents...















Kidding man, kidding. Come down from the ceiling now.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I remember well when PVC was 'the plumbing of the future', it was in the '60's. It was also when they dropped th BC here to 110 MPH to allow for cheaper housing. PVC leached chemicals and hurricane Andrew winnowed out many of the homes.

The problem with PVC is that it can react with many chemicals and heat. Certain combinations can make it brittle. All of the failures that I've seen are similar to broken glass.

Experience is also what make me leery of new systems like PEX. Did we forget the Qest lawsuit?

I'm sticking with what is proven to work. Copper! Worst case is that I'll be dead when it fails.


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## 415moto (Jun 6, 2006)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *For the sake of NOT wrecking your plumbers life...why not just have him call the homeowner and explain it all?*
> 
> *Each of us has a seperate code, some area's might allow PVC, others may not.*
> *IF your going by what we say and then tell it to the homeowner, your plumber might do something completely different....with a homeowner standing around looking over his shoulder with the idea he's doing it wrong.*
> ...


Highly disagree. A general contractor is the man who deals with the customer and he is one holding the prime contract with the customer. Every GC should have a blanket knowledge of the subtrades and general questions like this that are fielded by the GC, should be answered by the GC. If he doesnt know, he will learn the answer by asking the sub and committing that info to memory. The question he has is not one of preferred method, but one of fact. There is a factual answer that he should know and likely is of interest to other parties on the forum as well.

Case in point, the idea of DWV being copper, many counties out here demand no plastic in the house for the same reason cited; fire safety. Even with fireblocks, heat and flame can traverse through plastic pipes and thus are not permitted in some areas.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

415moto said:


> Highly disagree. A general contractor is the man who deals with the customer and he is one holding the prime contract with the customer. Every GC should have a blanket knowledge of the subtrades and general questions like this that are fielded by the GC, should be answered by the GC. If he doesnt know, he will learn the answer by asking the sub and committing that info to memory. The question he has is not one of preferred method, but one of fact. There is a factual answer that he should know and likely is of interest to other parties on the forum as well.
> 
> Case in point, the idea of DWV being copper, many counties out here demand no plastic in the house for the same reason cited; fire safety. Even with fireblocks, heat and flame can traverse through plastic pipes and thus are not permitted in some areas.


*You have a point, he should ask his plumber then, odd he didn't know the answer in the first place as a GC.*

*My point is that there are a dozen of us under a dozen jurisdictions and he might have a completely different code.*
*We could tell him something completely different from his own code, then when the plumber hands him an estimate, or starts the job...somebody looks pretty stupid.*

*An example, ask Killertoilet what kind of drain pipe & joints is supposed to be used for underground drainage...then ask me, Ron, Smellslike or 22rifle.*


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## plumberman (Jul 14, 2008)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *You have a point, he should ask his plumber then, odd he didn't know the answer in the first place as a GC.*
> 
> *My point is that there are a dozen of us under a dozen jurisdictions and he might have a completely different code.*
> *We could tell him something completely different from his own code, then when the plumber hands him an estimate, or starts the job...somebody looks pretty stupid.*
> ...


Well said...


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## BenBuilt (Aug 14, 2008)

My plumber is kinda grumpy and often offends my customers. He doesn't even really like talking to me on the phone, unless he's getting paid. I can understand, he's pretty busy. Beyond that I find a get a wider range of knowledge from these types of forum.

So too recap...

PVC is not allowed by code because:

1. Durability in general
2. It's vulnerable to fire
3. It contaminates the water 

I assume fire is the main reason. Thanks for all the info.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

BenBuilt said:


> My plumber is kinda grumpy and often offends my customers. He doesn't even really like talking to me on the phone, unless he's getting paid. I can understand, he's pretty busy. Beyond that I find a get a wider range of knowledge from these types of forum.
> 
> So too recap...
> 
> ...


*
It not allowed inside the building how clear can I be with it, look at the code.*


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

Recently, I was in a million $ house that uses 1 1/2" pvc throughout the attic to feed water to the multiple a/c units (I don't know why, really). This system has it's own water source coming in to the house, so it must be non- potable water? One of the pvc pipes burst & flooded the attic to the ground floor. The HO could not get a plumber out because they said that they were not licensed for this type of work? The HO got the HVAC people to do it instead?
Steve


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

Is it likely the homeowner meant cpvc and not pvc when asking the oringal question? Most people probably don't the difference between the two.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Ron The Plumber said:


> *
> It not allowed inside the building how clear can I be with it, look at the code.*


Your code books always give me a headache.
I Assume that is the water supply section?
Or definitions?
Either way, you do use PVC DW right?
I thought Chicago was pretty much a lonely 
hold out.


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

Teetorbilt said:


> The problem with PVC is that it can react with many chemicals and heat. Certain combinations can make it brittle. All of the failures that I've seen are similar to broken glass.
> 
> Experience is also what make me leery of new systems like PEX. Did we forget the Qest lawsuit?
> 
> I'm sticking with what is proven to work. Copper! Worst case is that I'll be dead when it fails.


My uncle is remodeling his own kitchen and I just told him the same thing. Glad I'm not lonely. Code or not....copper has proven itself.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

neolitic said:


> Your code books always give me a headache.
> I Assume that is the water supply section?
> Or definitions?
> Either way, you do use PVC DW right?
> ...


Try Tylenol extra strength. 

It's located in the IS of the code book. Yes we use PVC DWV here, totally different story from water distro.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

neolitic said:


> Your code books always give me a headache.
> I Assume that is the water supply section?
> Or definitions?
> Either way, you do use PVC DW right?
> ...


You can use PVC in Chicago for single family homes, as long as they are under three stories.


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## knothole (Feb 24, 2006)

We use cpvc 95% of the time on residential properties for hot and cold water. We use pvc dwv for all waste and vent lines.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> You can use PVC in Chicago for single family homes, as long as they are under three stories.


Is that recent?
Or contemporary with the rest of the country(70's)?


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

neolitic said:


> Is that recent?
> Or contemporary with the rest of the country(70's)?


Chicago changed their code to allow it in 1994.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Chicago changed their code to allow it in 1994.


Thanks:thumbsup:


Now, about them there "Spire" progress pix?:laughing:


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

neolitic said:


> Thanks:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Now, about them there "Spire" progress pix?:laughing:


I drive by to fast to take them, I only go by there when I'm on Lake Shore Drive.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I drive by to fast to take them, I only go by there when I'm on Lake Shore Drive.


Shucks!:sad:
No traffic jambs on Lake Shore?
I'll have to go that way 'stead 
of the Kennedy from now on! :laughing:


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

neolitic said:


> Shucks!:sad:
> No traffic jambs on Lake Shore?
> I'll have to go that way 'stead
> of the Kennedy from now on! :laughing:


Try this.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Copper!


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Try this.


This, at least is only 3 mos. old.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqD5_Gpvp64&feature=related
I'll keep looking.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

neolitic said:


> This, at least is only 3 mos. old.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqD5_Gpvp64&feature=related
> I'll keep looking.


OK, try this.

That is the last page, so you can work backwards.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> OK, try this.
> 
> That is the last page, so you can work backwards.


Kuwel!
That's the one I'll bookmark for 
progress reports.
Thanks:thumbsup:


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

You're welcome.


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## pwcm (Dec 31, 2008)

BenBuilt said:


> Inside. Outside I could see copper far outlasting pvc outside.


Quite the contrary in much of Cali. Hot soil rots many metallic mains and services. The preferred material underground is PVC. To date no plastic pipe for potable water inside the building is allowed by our code, but manufacturers are lobbying hard for it. Inside everything still copper.


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> OK, try this.
> 
> That is the last page, so you can work backwards.


Anyone else see something more in Post #537 of that link above? 
Might just be my Happy Imagination.:whistling Didn't realize Trump was even in it for 30 seconds:laughing:


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## HWCostruction (Oct 14, 2008)

I was always told PVC couldn't be used for potable water because it contained formaldehyde.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

HWCostruction said:


> I was always told PVC couldn't be used for potable water because it contained formaldehyde.


In Florida PVC is used as service to the structure, inside it is only used for DWV.

Hillsborough counties water main is primarily PVC.

I never heard of PVC contaminating potable water, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened, I just doubt it has, otherwise Florida would outlaw it.

I prefer Copper, L or K, I don't use type M, but if you are on a well with water below 6.5 PH, CPVC may be a better choice.


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

LNG24 said:


> Anyone else see something more in Post #537 of that link above?
> Might just be my Happy Imagination.:whistling Didn't realize Trump was even in it for 30 seconds:laughing:


 
Really? No One? http://www.thechicagospire.com/construction/


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

LNG24 said:


> Really? No One? http://www.thechicagospire.com/construction/


The Spire is not going to be built without someone buying out the architect and paying off the existing contracts that remain unpaid. All work on the project has been suspended.


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