# 3 for 3 on 3



## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

Bone Saw said:


> I can agree with this and see the logic, I can also understand there will always be poeple who will argue what the definition of "is" is. That being said, I cant think of one job other than the ones with curved stairs where I will encounter one of those footing/framing out of normal sequence/progress issues.
> 
> As my progress payments are now, lets say a typical job my footing expenses are 2-4% of the total and my framing expenses are 15-17% of the total, as we all know the bulk of the expense is in the decking and railing. I'm already27% +/- in the green by the time footers are done, and another 28% +/- for a total of 55% +/- in the green after 19% expenses. with the decking and railing making up 41-48% of the total, at any given time I'm in the green, and I damn sure wont be taking delivery of the decking and railing without the 3rd draw, which still puts me 40%+/- in the green, so the ball is in their court. I've never had any of these issues before, and they are certainly not due to pay schedual ambiguity, all this stress just makes me want to hang it up all together. Funny thing was back in june on the last one, I gave several notices and received recipricol acknowledgements to the 3rd draw being due, but no 3rd draw, even though I was over half way through the decking already. I figured I'd give it a weekend and cool off, then pick up the following week, so I went out on my boat that weekend, HO calls me while I'm on my boat, asking me why I'm not there and if I plan on working today, I say I'm on my boat and I hadn't planed on doing anything until the 3rd draw was paid, they went ballistic then threatened to have my equipment hauled away, Had to get a police escort to retrieve my ****. I notified my atty, but told him to sit tight, lets see where this goes, so the husband calls me few days later wanting to work things out, paid 3rd draw, ok, finish deck, go to install gliding door, wife goes ballistic, again telling me to get off her property, so police escort #2 to retrieve my ****, now there gonna pay!


Understand exactly where your coming from Chris. I think I'm more carpenter than business man. Got burned with the no deposit myself last month....never again. Still trying to figure out if the state in all their rightousness has done anyone any favors....It may make a businessman out of me yet


----------



## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

in all honesty, I'm thinking its time to get out of this ****, even with an ironclad contract and I tight ship, you are still vunerable to getting swamped in this sea of retards, and I kind of like not being on blood preasure meds. it just really sucks that 2 or 3 ****bags can make you want to walk away from something you built with hundreds of wonderful clients, and as far as that hicpa legislation goes, pretty much condones and gives incentive to let ho's screw with you at your expense, I'm just glad the other 2 were pre july 1


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Bone Saw said:


> in all honesty, I'm thinking its time to get out of this ****, even with an ironclad contract and I tight ship, you are still vunerable to getting swamped in this sea of retards, and I kind of like not being on blood preasure meds. it just really sucks that 2 or 3 ****bags can make you want to walk away from something you built with hundreds of wonderful clients, and as far as that hicpa legislation goes, pretty much condones and gives incentive to let ho's screw with you at your expense, I'm just glad the other 2 were pre july 1


Hang in there, unfortunately in economic times like this sometimes the only customers in the market are the wrong ones right now. The normal people are hanging back, holding on to their cash or equity and sitting things out for a while. When ever it feels safe for a little while these normal folks come into the market here and there, but for the most part during these times the morons are who you are talking to cause they're not as smart as the smart folks who are sitting it out. You've got a disproportionate number of dreamers, folks who read the article that contractors will drop their prices by 50% to keep food on the table, lots of repair folks trying to just keep their crap afloat right now instead of replacing it... etc...etc...

I saw all these goofs in the market in Jan and Feb and I have seen them be the market again these last 2 months. In between the normal people came out between March and June. They will be back again as soon as they start feeling more secure in the economy, meanwhile a lot of the leads suck right now and we end up dealing with the people you would normally not bother with.
:thumbdown


----------



## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Hang in there, unfortunately in economic times like this sometimes the only customers in the market are the wrong ones right now. The normal people are hanging back, holding on to their cash or equity and sitting things out for a while. When ever it feels safe for a little while these normal folks come into the market here and there, but for the most part during these times the morons are who you are talking to cause they're not as smart as the smart folks who are sitting it out. You've got a disproportionate number of dreamers, folks who read the article that contractors will drop their prices by 50% to keep food on the table, lots of repair folks trying to just keep their crap afloat right now instead of replacing it... etc...etc...
> 
> I saw all these goofs in the market in Jan and Feb and I have seen them be the market again these last 2 months. In between the normal people came out between March and June. They will be back again as soon as they start feeling more secure in the economy, meanwhile a lot of the leads suck right now and we end up dealing with the people you would normally not bother with.
> :thumbdown


mike, as much as we've bickered, I know for the most part your head and heart are in the right place, as such, I sincerely appreciate the encouraging words. man, 3 of these knuckleheads in a row is enough to push you to the brink of a killing spree. All three started on the up and up, then like clockwork, upon 
3rd draw due the games and bs begins, the example I previously stated was like nothing I've experienced before, in fact when I spoke to the officer who facilitated the retrieval TWICE, told me he wont deal with that nutcase again, she was a complete raving maniac, it's in my attys hands now, but boy are they not going to be happy when a judgement and lien for what I'm owed + interest + atty fees/court cost on top of what ever else they paid to finish said work, works out in my favor. needless to say I'm just completely sick of of this line of work and the assholes that come along with it


----------



## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)

Bone Saw said:


> needless to say I'm just completely sick of of this line of work and the assholes that come along with it


Being sick of it and letting the assholes win (by quitting) are two different things, don't let them win. It's tough in Pa. right now, hell I've been working in NY just to stay away from it. 

They really couldn't have picked a worse time to drop all these new rules on us, but don't let the stress get to you. It will pass, I promise.:thumbup:

If you need to bounce chit off another Pa guy, shoot me a PM.


----------



## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

this is becoming par for the course in pa, first all the doctors are saying the hell with pa and leaving, contractors next, this state is a ****ing joke, first of all it's blue, second I haven't been able to get a dime of child support in 8 years because my sons crackhead mother is on welfare and has other kids to boot, between the amish and the mushroom farms SE pa has no shortage of lowballers, illegalals and the hackery that goes with the territory. code enforcement is a ****ing joke, I use to be passionate and full of vigor about blowing my customers away with my work, I just plain don't give a **** anymore. VA and NC are looking better by the minute.


----------



## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

It sounds like you really need to take a mini vacation, think things over & possibly have a nice long talk with your wife(?). I can understand your frustration, and hope things start picking up for you and lots of others on here. Personally, I think that if you can hang in there, things will start picking up. 

Is Virginia or NC someplace you want to move to & retire? If so I suggest taking a few trips, talk to the local chambers & business and do your research. If your committed to moving, see if you can get licensed before the move - so your not stuck waiting 2 to 6 months before you can work / start looking for projects. Do you have someone now that can run your business up there for a while and you sell it to them or are you just simply planning on closing the doors? I can say that no matter where you are at - there will always be pros & cons. For right now hang in there - think things through & do whats best for you & your family. I try to keep the emotions out of the equation, remember what is most important to me and my family & that work is just a means to that end.


----------



## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Chris - seems we are neighbors.

Time to visit your lawyer, I think. First off, with the new PA HIC laws, the initial deposit on a project is limited to 30% of the project cost, not to exceed $1,000.00. Special order materials can be paid in full by the customer, provided they are a separate line item in the initial proposal. Framing material, concrete, hardware, even some decking is NOT considered special order.

So, just on a technicality, your 30% down is considered illegal by the state - if it exceeds $1,000.

I take a deposit of 30% or $1,000 - whichever is less, then usually another payment upon the start of work - usually ends up being a bout 45-65% paid on the first day of the job. If it is short - balance in full at end of job. Longer jobs - more draws, standard 10% retainage.

You are right about code enforcement being a joke around here - specially in our tri-county area. It's really who you know, not what you know. Play nice-nice, cover your ass, inundate them with too much paperwork and info - usually get rubber stamped without a second thought.

Mike Finley has it right about the wrong type of customers right now. Though we have been seeing a slight increase in the "right" type of customers as of late. Don't give up - take a mini-vacation. I just returned from a week at Bethany Beach and feel renewed (at least right now) after taking a few beatings this summer with impossible budgets and timelines. Explore other options - VA or NC - look into licensing, advertising, subbing for a GC, etc.

Email, PM or call me if I can help - check out my info on the website.


----------



## ABLE1 (Apr 30, 2005)

CookeCarpentry said:


> First off, with the new PA HIC laws, the initial deposit on a project is limited to 30% of the project cost, not to exceed $1,000.00.



I may be all wet here but I think that the above is a wrong interpertation.

I can't imagine getting only $1000 down payment on a $15 or 20k job???.

My understanding is that a contract is required for any project over $1000.00 and you can only request a 1/3 downpayment at signing of the contract.

Will some one please set me straight on this.

TIA

Les


----------



## ABLE1 (Apr 30, 2005)

Duplicate????


----------



## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

Damn everything you guys complain about in PA its like your my next door neighbor. I thought the corrupt code enforcement, lowballers and amish were just because i was in the sticks. :blink: If nothing else this all makes me feel better about my area.


----------



## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

ABLE1 - thanks for making me check myself.

Apparently, PA is updating requirements and not posting them on their website.

You are in fact correct - disregard prior post from me. However, when the state first came out with this, it was 30% not to exceed a down payment of $1,000.00.

Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

ABLE1 said:


> I may be all wet here but I think that the above is a wrong interpretation.
> 
> I can't imagine getting only $1000 down payment on a $15 or 20k job???.
> 
> ...



Im sure im wrong but i'll make an attempt, my impression is no more than 1/3 down or $1,000 as down payment but you can get a big draw the day you start. No one up here is even making an attempt to follow any of it anyhow....


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I don't know about the PA law, but I think the CA has a similar law. But it is really setup for the initial signing of the contract, usually this is a place saver in line when you are dealing with a company that handles more than one client at a time.

You co to the customers home to get the contract signed. At that point, you are allowed no more than 30% or $1000, which ever is less to be applied to the contract. When you start the job you can get the whole job paid in full if you wanted.


----------



## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

jk - corrupt code enforcement, hacks and amish are all over the state of PA - not just the sticks. You also interpreted the downpayment draw the way it was ORIGINALLY in PA, they have now changed it to just 1/3 downpayment. And you are right, you can make a large draw on day 1 - in theory have 2/3 of the job paid on day one.

No one is following it around here either - even after educating customers/potential clients - they seem unphased by it - price is the bottom line in 9/10 times...


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Chris,

Here are two more "Incentive" clauses to force the hand of the home owner when they skip a payment and you have to remove your equipment and then come back and re-setup.

I don't have my verbiage on this computer, but you enforce a re-mobilization fee, which adds $XX amount to the contract. If they want to play games, then it will cost them more.

Be careful NOT to make it seem as if it is a Penalty clause, because those are not enforced, but if you can show actual costs including lost profit for the day, calculate what that amount would be and put that figure in the contract and enforce it. 

The other clause is to give a discount upon signing for an early signing discount and then add in a clause that if all payments are not made when required, that all discounts and warranties are Null and Void.

Boom, they just added $1,000.00 back into the contract amount, or at least have the threat of it hanging over their head which IS collectible in my court jurisdiction.

Ed


----------



## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

California...10% or 1000.00 down,whichever is less....


----------



## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

thanx all needed to vent, Ed that mobilization clause is something I'm going to have to look into, thanx. Anyway literally just got off my boat, i went on an "anger management" sail tis weekend to blow some steam, about 180 miles, and the wind gods were pissed today, 38 miles of tacking upwind all day today, it was a HELL of a sail:thumbsup:


----------



## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

Chris, I was going to suggest a nice long sail to sort things out but I see you just did that. I still race sailboats once a week to take my mind off of work and it works wonders, try to get out a least once a week to clear your mind. 

BTW, take the reef out of your mainsail and live on the edge..........rounding up a few times really clears your mind.


----------



## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

dougchips said:


> ..........rounding up a few times really clears your mind.


not whitecappin 4' rollers it doesn't :laughing:

She actually hauls ass perfectly balanced in heavy weather reefed with storm jib, and I don't have a balanced spade rudder (skeg rudder). she'll average high 6kt, pushes to 8 while surfing, but the tiller pilot wont keep up with the weatherhelm, but in tamer conditions, with main and 110%, tweeking the head with the vang and sheet downhaul snatchblocks I've had her up to 9+


----------

