# Grace Ice & Water Shield



## Teetorbilt

Anybody familiar with this stuff? It looks good to me. Take a closer look at 
http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/product.cfm?mode=c&did=9&id=63#1857
There is a mention in the new edition of 'This Old House' magazine, pgs. 44 & 46. I am thinking of using it on my house, I want a bullet proof roof that I'll never have to worry about again.


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## Grumpy

Yeppers Grace makes the best ice shield on the market, no doubt. I'd use it on my own house. Infact I'd insist on it on my own house.

There is no such thing as a bullet proof roof. Yes if you use this as your felt, no ice or water is gonna get through but your going to replace those singles in 15-20 years anyways.  So you get no worries for those 15-20 years.


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## Teetorbilt

I'm going metal on the roof. The reflectiveness should reduce my cooling costs, black algae or fungus doesn't grow on zinc and many of the older homes (built at the turn of the last century) are still sporting their original roofs.
I was told that the key to longevity is the membrane but none of the roofers that have given me estimates knew anything about it. Tom Desilva uses it just around the perimeter and then covers it with 30# felt. I would feel better covering the entire roof with it, would I still need or want the felt? Code issue?
How much does it add to the cost?


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## Grumpy

A roofer who doesnt know about grace is a.... Well I was going to say moron but maybe Grace hasn't marketed it's ICE shield in Florida.  

Cover the whole roof with it, it won't hurt anything. It will cost more though. A roll of 30# is: $12 Grace is $100. I think it's worth every penny, but now you can see why people usually only use it at the perimiter.


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## Teetorbilt

Thanks Grumpy, I'm going to do the entire roof.


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## Grumpy

LOL I just realized you are putting a roof on in Florida to Colorado or Michigan standards. That roofs never gonna leak!


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## Teetorbilt

Grumpy, I don't get your drift.
We don't get snow or ice but last week we had an afternoon thunderstorm with winds in excess of 70 MPH. Wiped out all of the canvas on my boat and blew out 1/3 of the pool screening. 
Once in a while we also get the big ones like Andrew, Donna, Cleo, et al. 
That is what I am concerned about, wind driving rain under the shingles.
I see a metal roof as having fewer points of entry and the membrane as a backup. The combination should unitize the roof as well so that it all comes off in one piece when the big one hits. LOL


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## Grumpy

The ice shield's primary function is to protect against ice backup. It's secondary function is to protect against wind driven rain, but a heavy felt or syntetic could do that. I'm saying your roof's never gonna leak, which is good.


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## dougger222

Up here in Minnesota I never see the stuff. Last fall on a trip out to the north east it's all you see. I could buy here but at $100 for a 2 square roll, I can get Certainteed Ice and Water sheild for $41.00 for a 2 square roll.

The stuff does look pretty good though. Felt paper around here runs around $20 for a four square roll (15#).


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## jmorgan

Grace Ice & Water Shield is the stickiest and has the best seal. Should sell for about $80/ 225 sq ft roll. We sell lots in Florida, mostly over Dens Deck/Loadmaster, under commercial metal roofing. Also as vapor barrier under flat, insulated roofs. You get what you pay for with these self sealing underlayments......the rubber adhesive additive is the expensive part (also gives the stickiness & fastener seal).......the more you pay, the more SBS Rubber there is in the adhesive. Grace Ice & Water Shield has Dade County wind approval. Also, cheaper underlayments are granule surfaced....metal roofing CANNOT be placed directly on the surface, needs felt on top. Grace needs NO felt. Why add the extra penetrations!
Jim


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## dougger222

I guess the stuff has never caught on in Minnesota. The few times I've seen it used it's been under cooper roofs on 1/2-1 million dollar homes. It looks like a great product though, I've yet to use it.

By the looks of it, it looks like it could be slippery even when dry. Could a guy stand on the stuff on a 8/12 with no boards? Sometimes I run into bad batches of Certainteed I/W and it's slippery on even 6/12's, like it was wet from the factory and never dried. I've never heard of Certainteed's I/W sheild not sticking!

On all roofs that I do 6 feet of I/W is used on all eaves. The job I'm doing now is a 43 sq 8/12 and 9 2sq. rolls just barely made it. Figure the builder payed $45 per roll material then $30 per roll installation, $675 totall, now double the material amount for Grace's product. On average an extra $400 per job for Grace's I/W at 50 homes a year would really add up. If I told my three builders that Grace was the best stuff in the world which it probly is they would not bite for the extra cost.


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## Grumpy

It's not slippery atr all when dry but is a bit slippery when wet. When dry yes you could however we make a point to put boards on any roof with a 8/12. If it's wet it's not recommended to stand on any roof with or without grace, with no fall protection.

Grace sticks like a sum-n-a-*****. When I am pushing grace on an owners house I literally take a piece of the grace, and then a piece of whatever else I have. I stick both to my harry arm and then yank em both off. Where the grace was, almost all my hair is gone. Where the other one was most of my hair remains. After I do that, they are sold on the grace. I've only done it a few times because it takes a few weeks for the hair to grow back


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## dougger222

Grumpy, that sounds like a very painfull way to sell a product. Perhaps someday I'll come across some and see how it works first hand. Actually, every now and then I see it on comercial new contruction where a metal roof is being installed.


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## Rathion

*Installing Grace*

I just learned about Grace this winter. I was going to use it around edges, valleys, chimneys etc. Can anyone explain how it works? I'm assuming it lays directly to the deck but how do you overlap the 15lb felt then?


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## Grumpy

Felt overlaps ontop at least 4 ". Some guys overlap 100%.


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## AaronB.

The hair pull test


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## Grumpy

AaronB. said:


> The hair pull test


One day it was hot about 90 degrees and the wind took a corner of the grace and folded it over. It instantly stuck to my arm. When I pulled it off I was missing all arm hair for about two weeks.


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## AaronB.

I have done that, but not intentionally repeated it.


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## jmorgan

Rathion, 
Go to www.graceconstruction.com and click on roofing underlayments/videos...watch the video for installation techniques. Site also describes how Grace Ice & Water Shield works.
Grumpy,
I've never heard of your hair technique.....impressive dedication to your customers! What happens if you demo 5-6 people in a week....you must run out of hair! I've lost hair too, but accidentally only. What a salesman!
Jim


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## Rathion

LOL..thanks!


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## Rathion

Oh...almost forgot to ask whats the best way to use it for flashing? Im thinking the paper is a problem to get off when the rip cord at 18" is too high and you only need a 6" bend. (They didnt show that install in the video  )


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## Grumpy

The paper is not hard to get off at all. It's a wax paper really. Sometimes a small slit in the paper, but avoiding the membrane is all you need.

To use as a flashing, I must be misunderstanding because that's the easiest thing in the world. Just wrap it around the object you are flashing.


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## AaronB.

dont foget that it is not uv stable, and must be protected fron the sunshine


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## jmorgan

We use the 18" Ripcord for wall turnups, one person valleys, to make provisions for avoiding uphill lap when stuff downslope isn't ready yet (like facias not in) and it is a "crutch" for guys who aren't good at installing it....guys who use splitrelease, low-tack granular sheets. If you install it right, "sticky" is your friend...less nailing! 
Aron is right, the material can not be left permanently exposed. It should becovered by other material or matal flashing when used for flashing.
Jim


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## Rathion

Okay, here is what Im asking. Im assuming I should cut a length off the roll so I can lay it flat. 

1. How much overlap does it require at the seams (both horizontal and vertical seams)?

2. Is it easier to peal the paper off the portion adhering to the deck then cut in the rest?


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## AaronB.

i GO A SAFE 6'" MIN OVERLAP (MORE AINT BETTER, BUT LESS IS MUCH WORSE) FOR END LAPS, AND IT SHOULD HAVE A LINE FOR THE SIDE LAPS.

YES, I THINK YOU HAVE A GOOD IDEA HOW TO PEEL AS YOU GO, CUZ THE GOOD STUFF STICKS WHEN IT TOUCHES ANYTHING. IT IS REAL EASY TO WASTE BY TOUCHING IT TO ITSELF. 

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS. I LOOK AT THE KEYBOARD WHEN I TYPE AND IT WAS TOO LATE TO STOP.


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## darryl

Grumpy said:


> LOL I just realized you are putting a roof on in Florida to Colorado or Michigan standards. That roofs never gonna leak!


Hey if you put the roof on right it won't leak lol I%W is primarily used to eliminate water backup, up North from the melting snow or ice dams, the only place down here is way up North in the Jax and Panhandle area, where the temps reach below freezing lol infact the code book calls for I&W if the mean temp is 25 degrees during the month of January. We have water backup down here because the people shingle a low pitch roof deck ,forget to put mastic between the joints on the eave metal, forget to seal the valley , penetrations and terminations. All you have to do is put the materials down right and you won't have a problem here in Florida, up North I would use I&W to protect the possible leak areas. 
BTW T mentioned the use of a metal roof covering, just be sure you use plastic caps and a slip sheet when putting down the panels, the way some of these contractors put down metal I&W would be a good thing to use lol I have seen so many contractors that said that they were metal experts, after the first rain they became remediation contractors cleaning up the water lol.


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## jmorgan

Rathion, 
Best to work directly off of the roll, not pre -cut (especially if it is a hot day). Laps are 4" end and 3 1/2" side. Sides are marked. Tack down the end of the roll (in the middle), roll it out (with the paper still in place) about 15'. Now score the paper across the roll (this means to cut the paper lightly so as not to cut the membrane). Begin removing the paper from this point. Use the "dashed" line along the lap line to align the paper...when the paper is removed, the material edge will be right on the lap line. 
Daryl, 
The reason you see so much Grace IWS in Florida is hurricanes and wind driven rail getting under tile roof systems. It is code required in some areas of Florida (Ithink Dade County, but not sure)
Jim


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## Rathion

Thanks for the tips everyone!


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## LNG24

They make this stuff is a small roll as well. I also use it in the tub and shower area. I think it is called Grace Vicore.


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## Frame To Finish

I do all my roofs 100% with Grace ice & water, it's cheap insurance over a 20 year haul.


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## SteelToe

As a former Florida resident I can tell you that Grace Ice & Water Shield is money well spent. Although synthetic felts will perform better than traditional felts and probably not blow off, they will not stop wind driven rain.

Ask yourself, "Is it ok if my roof leaks a little?" What I mean is, do you have wood floors, expensive electronics, family keep sakes, etc. that are far more valuable than the extra in roofing UL. This is usually the threshold my clients have to overcome in their mind before spending the money. Quite frankly, they usually do it as no one wants to have to worry about their roof again. 

No, Ice&Water Shield is not required in FL, however Dade and Broward county do require an anchor sheet (mech. attached std./syn felt) be installed prior to the application of any peel and stick. Its a horrible requirement, but it is what it is.

Check with your insurance company as most are giving 5-10% off of anual premium if full coverage Grace Ice&Water shield. However, be sure to ask them what verification they require to give discount. It may require an inspection by agent.

Also, be careful as every manufacturer wants a piece of the Florida market and there is lots of junk being sold as the hot tip of the day. Demand Grace if you do this. Its about $1.25/sq installed as part of the roof or atleast it was when I was there.:thumbup:


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## red_cedar

Frame To Finish said:


> I do all my roofs 100% with Grace ice & water, it's cheap insurance over a 20 year haul.


 I sure hope your 'Roofs' are properly vented well. if they are not your "roofs" will condensate and your roof will rot from the inside out. Your "roof" however will not leak though.


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## AaronB.

100% ice and water shield is only necessary for those that do not know how to properly install a roof.


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## RooferJim

You must not be near the ocean. 100% ice shield is specified on slopes of 4 in 12 down to 2 in 12. yes good felt is also limited protection against wind driven rain but I&W is better. even on steep slopes its not a bad idea just make sure there is sufficent venting.
a watertight subroof is important unless you operate in a mild climate I suppose. If you roof right over bare sheathing then you should be not be allowed on a roof.

RooferJim


"real slaters cut with a stake and slaters hammer"


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## AaronB.

Ahhh ...the old low slope shingle trick.

Youre right, I do not live by the ocean.

Who the heck, in this day and age, would shingle over bare wood?


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## RooferJim

I know what you mean though, some folks think that I&W is somehow magic stuff and takes the place of good proven roofing practice.

"Never underestimate the intelligence of a raindrop"


RooferJim

www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## red_cedar

RooferJim said:


> You must not be near the ocean. 100% ice shield is specified on slopes of 4 in 12 down to 2 in 12. yes good felt is also limited protection against wind driven rain but I&W is better. even on steep slopes its not a bad idea just make sure there is sufficent venting.
> a watertight subroof is important unless you operate in a mild climate I suppose. If you roof right over bare sheathing then you should be not be allowed on a roof.
> 
> RooferJim
> 
> 
> "real slaters cut with a stake and slaters hammer"



When I first started roofing, I was taught to apply wood shingles right over bare wood with big gaps.
I guess times have indeed changed. The way now is to apply ice and water shield then cedar breather, then shingle useing a 1x4 nailed into the roof to keep the courses straight.


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## trialbyfire

expensive for a florida house, but you will feel better.


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## RooferJim

The Cedar bureau still accepts the open sheathing method but massachusetts code does not. great as lond as there is no wind driven rain or an ice storm. we used to 30lb felt the whole roof now we I&W it on cedar jobs most of the time.

RooferJim


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## AaronB.

18" shakes will have triple coverage at 6"exposure if done properly.


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## Kristina

I learned a bit about roofing yesterday. I helped DH rip off two layers. My first time on a roof.  

Anyway, after reading this thread I asked him what he did.

He does a perimeter of I&W guard (not Grace though) and then puts down shinglemate, overlapping by 6 inches.

He said you'd never want to cover the whole roof with it for the reasons mentioned here, vapor build up, mold, rot etc.

He said you'd definately want to use it in coastal areas where there can be wind driven rain and mist. 

:thumbsup:


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## RooferJim

wood also absorbs water.
in fact more than double its weight.

RooferJim

www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## AaronB.

Welp it sure will, but as youre aware, youre not setting the water on the wood to soak, and it dries out again, taking a bit of the good stuff with it, which is why you need to clean and restore shakes every seven years or so.


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## RowdyRed94

I realize that this thread is two years old, but I thought I'd represent Minnesota since we had some clueless posts on page 1. We've been running eaves to 1' inside interior wall lines, valleys and any other appropriate locations for a number of years, and Grace was among the first products we used. Heck, it's been code for years since we're in Ice Damn Capital, USA! I'm not sure how anyone in the construction industry could be unaware of the practice.


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