# Non responsive customers and not winning bids



## Jethroe (Jan 27, 2007)

Ok folks I am scared.. 
I am trying to get this thing off the ground and it is really scaring me. I keep bidding jobs on the national average but these painters here must be cheap!! I mean really cheap. I have been losing every single bid and now I am going to loose my whole crew and possibly my business. I even bought a nice used van better than the old beater I had, but the customers won't accept my proposals. I am wondering what the hell I am doing wrong because I bid all of my jobs at .65 a sq ft .75 on two stories plus prep and cleanup by the hour at about 35 per hour.
I mean the customers all just lie to me or diss me leading me on or they are unresponsive to my return calls. Any one else out there w/ this problem???? I have been bidding both interior and exterior work this spring and It's a no go for me!:sad:

I have been contacted by a co. called maintenance made simple and they want me to sub from them I guess this is my last straw.:no:


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## HUDSONVALLEYEXT (Aug 29, 2006)

how are the customers finding you


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## Jethroe (Jan 27, 2007)

Some of my customers come through my website others through craigslist and the local newspaper and classifieds. Very few referrals. I can't afford a yellow pages listing and have found it both beneficial and a rip-off in the past. One of my subs I talked to says 80% of his clients are from referalls right now but I have never been to succesful with referalls. Most people seem to forget quick what we made happen for them. Maybe we should just suck it up and lower prices and eat PB and J for dinner every night.


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## Second Look (Jan 13, 2007)

Jethroe said:


> Most people seem to forget quick what we made happen for them.


One way to help them remember you is with a monthly newsletter or postcard mailed to them. I follow up every job, even a $100 handyman job, with a hand-written thank you note mailed along with a refrigerator magnet that has my business card printed on it. You can buy magnets and glue your cards to them but it looks better to get them printed right on the magnet. Cost about 50 cents to a buck each at Vistaprint, depending on how you catch the sales.


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## Jethroe (Jan 27, 2007)

Yeah I forgot about the old fridge magnets. I used them before and I have actually gone back to more than one previouse customers house to see them on their fridge posted proudly. It also made me feel good to see that they like me and my services. This aint my first rodeo as a contractor but I have a love for painting and I am good at it along with alot of other things. 
We can really blow alot of peoples minds with what we are capable of doing to their home but here in Oklahoma they all want to getter done cheap. It's really sad what is going on here everyone with a truck wants to be a self-proclaimed professional remodeler and now we have all of these co's. coming out of the woodwork like this maintenance made simple place that want's us to work for them because people are going with these types of contractors instead of supporting their local pros. Lowes and Home depot have really messed things up for the good old local contractor/painter/carpenters with all of there installation services and I am at these stores just about everyday only to be made sick as to what kind of trash is out there working on peoples homes. I see guys all over that should just not be allowed in this field yet somehow they make it I personally know some of them because I am from here and know some of them. I really think that a story should be done about all of this on 60 minutes.

By the way Second Look Nice site and you seem to be professioanl enough. I am going to take some advise here and re-group..


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## Richard (May 21, 2006)

Second Look said:


> One way to help them remember you is with a monthly newsletter or postcard mailed to them. I follow up every job, even a $100 handyman job, with a hand-written thank you note mailed along with a refrigerator magnet that has my business card printed on it. You can buy magnets and glue your cards to them but it looks better to get them printed right on the magnet. Cost about 50 cents to a buck each at Vistaprint, depending on how you catch the sales.


Second Look

while you mean well, IMO you are doing things backwards

Jetroe is having a hard time _getting_ jobs to begin with. You are speaking mainly about following up. 

When I mail a proposal I send a company magnet _with_ my proposal. I also send a page that describes my company, what I do, and what I offer. Magnets are cheap at Home Depot. $10 for 50. They are pre-cut, just stick your cards on them. The description page is ink and paper.

As far as the bidding, ehh. I don't bid by square feet. So that could be messing you up as well. It's too mechanical. too robotic...IMO, it's not flexible enough and it's probably part of your issue. 

Don't rely on craigslist, trust me on this one--you'll be sitting around for a long time if you do. Invest more in business cards, magnets, post card mailings, and spread the word like all hell. Oh, and if you don't have a website....get one. My website is $10/mo, set it up myself, so cost isn't an issue. 

Oh, find out what the going rate for labor is in your area. Then charge a competetive price. You might not need to lower your rates, you might just be setting up your estimates wrong. Keep that in mind, before you become the infamous lowballer. 

Good luck, hope I helped


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Your prices do not sound unreasonable to me, but I would be concerned with the lack of referals. I do no advertising, and I admit, it was a slow few years getting up and moving, and while we have hashed this over a lot of times, referals and visablility bring work, I don't care who you are!

I would stop pricing prep and cleanup seperately, and walk in with one price, or two prices max....like good quality paint, and lower qulaity ( I buy the cheap stuff). When I get a bid from my painter, I want to hear a total price, and I haven't heard anyone yet tell me X amount for prep work, and X amount to clean up when we are done. 

If it isn't working with the economy we have, then it is something you are doing wrong. Have you ever had the chance to see anyone else's bid and compared it to yours?


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

> .65 a sq ft .75 on two stories plus prep and cleanup by the hour at about 35 per hour.


Why not use a flat rate per square foot to cover the whole job. Ho may think "I'm not paying extra 
for prep and clean up. Thats part of the job!" Flat rate to cover the whole job might eleminate some of that thinking. Talking ordinary prep here. Of course list prep and cleanup in your scope of work, just do not do a breakdown of the charge for it if you charge for it seperately. Unless you are the Picasso of house painters, you will need to have an idea of what others are charging, and be competitive.


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## Traditions (Aug 22, 2006)

.65 cents a square foot, is this including materials. Are you talking exterior only? I agree with the not charging seperate for your prep and clean up. Include it all into one.


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## SeanATL (Apr 6, 2007)

do you have insurance?

Is there some other reason besides price people are not wanting to work with you.....that's what I'm trying to figure out.

I know a lot of people don't have time to get 3 or 4 quotes, so I find it hard to believe the problem is soley on your pricing.

I know a lot of people have no form of insurance and many people won't work with someone who is uninsured.


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## Jethroe (Jan 27, 2007)

Traditions said:


> .65 cents a square foot, is this including materials. Are you talking exterior only? I agree with the not charging seperate for your prep and clean up. Include it all into one.


 We all have different ways of bidding work but the actuall work on the national average we all know is .65 to .75 per sq ft exterior (Should be for painting only) and every house is different. Prep to me includes the setup and tear down of scaffolding and equipment. How many windows/doors need caulked and masked off. How much scraping is involved and the presssure washing of the house. I am not doing all of this for free This is Labor intensive and dangerous too. Especially on two stories. I do have insurance and its on the frontpage of my website. Some people ask other don't . I did finally get throught to one guy today with a two story 3000 sq ft house which I measured and deducted for all windows and doors which this house has alot of them with nails popping all over the trim(Not to mention christmas light hooks which were all over it) which also includes re-attaching the trim down and of course caulking all cracks and gaps and . This aint cheap and neither is his house. the bid came to $3900.00 approximately and he tells me on the phone I am way to high. I say to him " What is high to you Mr. blank? Are we talking thousands here, or hundredes of dollars?" He then proceeds to tell me " I dont know Its just I'm selling the house and the price is quite a bit for that" I told him the best I could do is give him a full 10 percent discount on the job which I offer only a five percent for any job under 5,000. and ten percent for anything over but only up to the first 10,000. is a ten percent discount but in this case I would be willing to give him a special offer. He then told me He would get some other bids and call me back!! This jerk hasen't even gotten other prices yet!!!
I am very professional with all potential and existing customers from beginning to end of all projects my co. performs and I always try to keep them interested in our co. doing futrure work for them I have never been told in my 12 years plus as a contractor on my own on uncountable jobs that I do bad work I just can't let that happen. I know how to sell jobs but It's all getting harder every day.
This guys job is easily a $5500.00 which as I said earlier I bid at 3900.00 and he is still bitchen, bad thing about It I did not see him as a runaway but he is....


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

One last thought buddy.....my own rule is never negotiate or ask what they think a job is worth...you have your price, and if you don't get it, you don't need the practice unless the kids are starving.


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## Richard (May 21, 2006)

joasis said:


> One last thought buddy.....my own rule is never negotiate or ask what they think a job is worth...you have your price, and if you don't get it, you don't need the practice unless the kids are starving.



I agree...I've lost 2 jobs in the past 2 months. Big deal...I have a wife to take care of and tons of bills staring at me. I never, ever negotiate just to get a job. It makes you look so unprofessional and desperate. If you bid fair, tight, and stand by it and a customer gets other estimates, great. They will be coming back to you then when they realize you are the most competitive.


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## Joewho (Sep 20, 2006)

Change your advertising style. Get a real ad, at least 1"x3" square, in the newspaper. Point out that you're a long time local, if you are, or point out years of experience. If the market leans toward the general home improment guys, then advertise painting and home improvement. If you only want to paint, then sub or hire an employee. 

Ask the phone company to give you a landline number with an old prefix.

Give yourself a pep talk in the mirror and then knock on doors in your neighborhood. Introduce yourself, give literature. Neighbors tend to give work, but they also tend to look for the low price. 

Hope you can use some of this.


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

Maybe your sale tech needs adjusting, Your rates seem cheap. If you worked on your selling aproach you might be better off.


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## Jethroe (Jan 27, 2007)

Ok well I dont have a family and you might hold this one against me.....
But don't really care about some of the comments I have received on this threads postings about how you don't negotiate bids. I would like to see how much the people who brag about how they do it. As a single man I KNOW what it takes to stay alive in this trade and you with your families and kids really you all must have wives that take up the slack for you.
I mean really I work hard by MYSELF to make all of this work. 
So you probably stay at home half the time to wait for a wife to bring home the bacon until your next gig. But I Don't live that way and NEVER WILL! So I can't relate to you! Lets hear from the real people without bringin in the FAMILY!!!
BTW I have never been married I am 39 been doin all of this since I was 13 and I probably never will get married with no kids and I really am not interested in bringing all of that excuse into this. 

Don't get me wrong family and kids are very important if not for that none of us would be here. 

I will cont. to negotiaste bids with people. whats 10% compared to 5%? I can take that much a couple hundred bucks off just to win the bid??? I have bills just like you all and really Its been proven to me as a single man by myself I can sink just as fast as any family man can in this business!
And yes I refuse to be a lowballer I will bid high and come down from there! So go home and loose all these jobs you brag about and and lose your business while your wife and family sit by ... We are in this thing for the long haul and We will make It!
When I say WE this means the business I created and the crew. US 
(my crew)


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Wow, angry man class would be good for you. I started about the same time as you and just turned 40... so about the same there.... I have 4 kids, one on the way, a 52 inch HDTV, 2004 F1-50 and an SUV for the wife, house, boat, four computers, about to buy another cycle...... and I don't negoiate bids.

What was it again you asked?


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## Jethroe (Jan 27, 2007)

Brushslingers said:


> Wow, angry man class would be good for you. I started about the same time as you and just turned 40... so about the same there.... I have 4 kids, one on the way, a 52 inch HDTV, 2004 F1-50 and an SUV for the wife, house, boat, four computers, about to buy another cycle...... and I don't negoiate bids.
> 
> What was it again you asked?


 LMAO There BrushSlinger or what ever you call yourself just thought it funny how all of you seem to have all of these answeres for people yet you hang out here 24/7 but I came here from a different place than you and I am not angry atall.. just tryingto make It if youare so set you just joined 75% OF THE STUCK UP aHOLES IN THIS FORUM lmaoau.


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## Flawless Finish (Aug 7, 2006)

Wow, I havn't been on here too much lately, but I always thought this was a frendly forum. I'm not sure how you can come here and ask advice and then diss the people that try to help you. 

If you are "losing every single bid", you're doing something wrong and should consider the advice of those that are doing well. You can say it's because of the low ballers, but that is not all of it. There are people out there who don't want a low baller.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Jethroe... seriously, I don't have a problem landing jobs, I have a problem getting leads. Your situation sounds as if you are the opposite, that doesn't make me stuck up or an ahole.... it really only makes you a non-salesman. The issue you speak of sounds as if you are angry, and it comes out in your pitch... you either close, or you don't. I have a great close rate and am expensive for my area.... good for me, only says that you need to work on your pitch. Good luck as you seem like you do not care to hear suggestions, or advice.


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## Tmrrptr (Mar 22, 2007)

Jethroe:

One of the poster's on these boards has a saying:

If life deals you lemons, sell lemonaide!

Yes, I DO believe the economy will be manipulated severly towards the end of this year, and MANY good folks are already having significant problems. REAL, down to earth probs...

But let's look at this in proper perspective...

In hard times, or ANY times, the BEST way to present a property, or anything else, is for it to LOOK nice. Attractive. Clean.

Consider how YOUR skills can benefit those involved, and you SHALL be able to make a successful presentation that will benefit all concerned, including yourself, and your crew.
Yes, I DO realize that when you have a crew you have taken on a responsibility to keep food on THEIR table also!
r


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## painter14619 (May 4, 2007)

Jethroe-

In my initial meeting with every customer I know what I am going to charge before leaving their house. Sometimes I ask if the customer has a budget in mind for their job before giving them the estimate. This tells me what kind of a job they are expecting. Let's face it there ARE different types of painting and therefore different prices. Is the job a quick refresher or a detailed restoration job? Are you in a $50K house or a $500K house? I tend to price my jobs based on what the customer's expectations are. Prep and clean up are always part of every job. On every estimate I have a minimum that I will work for based on my hourly rate. If I bid a job for a $1000 and work for $25/ hour I will inform the customer when I hit the 40 hour timeframe and revisit why the job is not completed. Often I find they are asking for additional work to be completed once I am in the door and need to add on the contract anyway.

Try to eliminate the competition by asking what would it take to get your job? Tell them you want to work for them. People like to feel important and they like a person who is confident telling them what you are going to do for them and then following through. 9 out of 10 contractors in my area leave the initial meeting without giving an estimate...differentiate yourself, sell your skills.


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## bigchaz (Jun 17, 2006)

I didnt read through this entire thread but if your this big of a jerk when you deal with customers its no surprise to me you dont get jobs


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## NW Painter (May 7, 2007)

Hey Jethroe,

The name of your company would scare the crap outta me if I were a potential customer. It's like the next thing to "Fly by Night".

I would worry about sloppy work or taking off before the work is complete, or that I was gonna get royally reamed. "In and Out"

Sorry bro, it's just my opinion.


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## Jethroe (Jan 27, 2007)

NW Painter said:


> Hey Jethroe,
> 
> "In and Out"


IMO
Means, Interior and Exterior Professional Finishes.
In and Out of their house In a reasonable amount of time, quality resuluts and with no headaches, as we do what what we promise the customer in the contract.arty: 

http://www.triumphpc.com/netcard/Jeffrey.shtml


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## Jethroe (Jan 27, 2007)

Oh! And by the way!

I am working tomorrow!
Jethroe:thumbup:


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

I don't get that kind of negative connotation from the name of your company. I think it describes expediency and skill to do your job in a timely manner.

By the way, I like some of the tools on your web-site and especially the networking option and customer job tracking feature available.

Do contractors and homeowners take advantage of these options available to them on a regular basis?

Ed


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## NW Painter (May 7, 2007)

Yea, I knew what ya mean by the name, I just had to try and be a smart alec...


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## BMAN (Aug 21, 2006)

There is a tone to your email that comes through as a little disgruntled. If it shows through in your typing then maybe the customers feel it too? How do you handle a customer when they have a problem? Do you push too hard or not enough? Some guys are made to be owners and some are made to be workers. Maybe you are somewhere in the middlle? When we leave a job the customers are telling us they will be telling their friends about us, we are not asking them to. Whne we wre slow a few years back I had new Invoices printed up and added "now taking referrals" to the bottom of the sheet. It worked wonders. Sometimes people think your are so busy they bother calling, you may have to keep your name in their head someway or another. 
The last question you have to ask and I ask this nicely and not in a rude way, but is your work worth referring? Ask yourself that before you clean up at any job. go back and look at your walls, are the cuts razor sharp? are your repairs flashing hello? did you caulk all your joints and molding? Ask yourself the tough questions


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## Jethroe (Jan 27, 2007)

Yes I Have use the active collaboration and project tracking PHP scripts alot. Some customers like it, others don't as far as getting most subs to cooporate thats a different story. You have to keep them in work and they don't feel like reporting work (after working all day) even if they do have a computer to simply log on and see what the heck is going on much less talk about it. These really work best for out of state contacts or people out of touch with the property and whats going on, usually on bigger jobs too.


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