# Electrical permit



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I have a situation and want an opinion on what is the best way to handle it. I pulled a permit for installing new window and door headers. The first thing the town asked was what am I doing with the electric on the door way to the deck. I said I would amend the permit later. Well Im getting framing inspection tomorrow and havent done anything about the electric. I have an electrician who is MIA FOR 2 WEEKS so Im hung out to dry here. The feed is coming from the cieling but is going to be short at new switch location. I am adding 2 fixtures, one on each side of the door and need to replace the GFI. So I think I can use the UL plastic siding light block to house the feeder so I can relay it to the switch then back to itself and again across the header to the other side of the door. I will extend from the switch to the new GFI below in another siding UL block. Is this acceptable? Thier is a soffit above the header so I can float romex up there, but I dont know if it has to be armored or not. Are the boxes okay by themselves or do I need mounted housings? The boxes will have plastic grommets inside. Can I have the Homeowner sign off? Never did this for electric before. Thank you in advance.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I'd open the phone book, and get a service electrician out there ASAP. If you have a "Mr. Sparky" or "Mr. Electric" in the phone book, they can usually send a guy withing a couple hours.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Around here you will fail a framing inspection without a green tag from the electrical inspector. That's the first thing he looks for. Won't even look at the framing without that tag.


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

tom m said:


> I have a situation.


you is in Joisey [I is a boy frum joisey city originally].
Dey's'll hang ya for dune it yersef ...

I go along with md


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I was hoping for an approval from you guys for a rather simple set up like this. The homeowner can do his own electric and this isnt a real risky thing but I will probaly have to call someone. I have never heard of any local service guys before, all my fellow contractor buddies alike have people and all are too backed up. We'll do we we have to.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

$7500.00!!


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> $7500.00!!


Thats exactly how a GC blows a budget. The regular guy for anything goes MIA and you have to call some random guy for service and he throws wild numbers around cause your in need.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

tom m said:


> Thats exactly how a GC blows a budget. The regular guy for anything goes MIA and you have to call some random guy for service and he throws wild numbers around cause your in need.


That's called *business*.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

tom m said:


> Thats exactly how a GC blows a budget. The regular guy for anything goes MIA and you have to call some random guy for service and he throws wild numbers around cause your in need.



It's a conspiracy that all us electricans know about and benefit nicely from!


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

good, fast or cheap.....pick any two...can't have all three


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

So figuiring a small task like this in an estimate I put 300.00 bucks on this maybe 400. This is a generous rate for a small task like this that will take an electrician 1 hour tops on the way to his other work. Now the guy goes MIA and I call several people and no one can come oput for less than 600, This is justified. I should lose money with no mark-up putting a simple task on someone elses plate. My new goal this summer is to have 2 of every sub, especially electric,plumbing and drywall this way I can drop a line on both at the same time and when I get screwed around I can play the GC conspiracy of sorry I got someone else.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

tom m said:


> So figuiring a small task like this in an estimate I put 300.00 bucks on this maybe 400. This is a generous rate for a small task like this that will take an electrician 1 hour tops on the way to his other work. Now the guy goes MIA and I call several people and no one can come oput for less than 600, This is justified. I should lose money with no mark-up putting a simple task on someone elses plate. My new goal this summer is to have 2 of every sub, especially electric,plumbing and drywall this way I can drop a line on both at the same time and when I get screwed around I can play the GC conspiracy of sorry I got someone else.


That is business as well. But business works better when both people feel they are NOT getting screwed. 

It most likely would take more than an hour anyway. Nothing ever only takes an hour.


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## Capt2 (Jul 29, 2006)

tom m said:


> My new goal this summer is to have 2 of every sub, especially electric,plumbing and drywall this way I can drop a line on both at the same time and when I get screwed around I can play the GC conspiracy of sorry I got someone else.


I know you're pissed but this is the last aproach you want. Personally if I get the sense that someone is calling me, but will grab the first guy they can get for the job, then I don't take them seriously at all. 
On the other hand if it's someone I know that is only calling me, then I will jump thru hoops to get out ASAP. As a general rule loyalty and relationships pay in the long run. IMHO, that's business--no offense MD.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Well today I got a call from an electrician who had gotten my number from another contractor for some services he needs. During our discussion on the work he would like me to handle for him I brought up my recent need this week and asked him how much his time is worth. He says 2 guys probably a half day $500.00. Five hundred a half day holy crap well I say yeah thats what I figuired I charge over a thousand a day for my services. Do you think I will be helping him on his project?


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

$1,000 a day to me sounds like this EC firm has their act together. You'll be able to price jobs in the future accordingly and sleep well at night knowing that you hired a reputable electrician. The EC's that don't charge alot of money usually have the worst electricians working for them and even more problems arise because of it.

Good luck!


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

tom m said:


> Well today I got a call from an electrician who had gotten my number from another contractor for some services he needs. During our discussion on the work he would like me to handle for him I brought up my recent need this week and asked him how much his time is worth. He says 2 guys probably a half day $500.00. Five hundred a half day holy crap well I say yeah thats what I figuired I charge over a thousand a day for my services. Do you think I will be helping him on his project?



I think that sounds high but i really don't know. I think MD charges 65.00 dollars to ring a door bell.:laughing:


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

tom m said:


> He says 2 guys probably a half day $500.00.


If there were 100.00 in material, this is only 50.00/mh

How much do you charge out your workmen for?


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

i've learned several things in my time in this trade....

1) nothing ever takes only 1 hr....

2) if employees are doing it, double the time you think it will take you...and you might be close

3) GC's never, ever, ever, should figure pricing for any trade, unless they have a close working relationship with that sub...

4) i heard this saying once, "i'm here to make money, if you get a building built along the way, goody for you"


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

mahlere said:


> "I'm here to make money, if you get a building built along the way, goody for you"


That's beautiful. Brings a little lump to my throat. (anyone have a tissue?)


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Magnettica, If my memory serves me well your still working for someone else. You will see things very different as time passes on your own if you make that leap. For everyone else this guy is a small business operation like myself. If your an electrician, plumber, drywaller, tiler, painter you name it and you operate in a home office with one or two trucks and a garage you have the same overhead and expenses or at least close. Im all for making money and getting it by sales but a thousand dollars he can go f- off. Nothing takes an hour for sure but you definitely dont go around pricing jobs based like this. Even if you have a large operation you have to be more time efficient to be competitive. I would expect this number to be the starting daily price of an excavator who is putting an expensive piece of equipment on the job not a 2 man crew. I guarantee he has a problem paying a carpenter 1k for a days pay. Many electricians who do commercial see different money than the residential and should adjust themselves.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

jbwhite said:


> If there were 100.00 in material, this is only 50.00/mh
> 
> How much do you charge out your workmen for?


Not to beat a dead horse, but...

If you want reliable, TRUSTOWRTHY people in customers homes, you will need to pay a premium for that. This is where your sales ability could come in. Sell on the fact that the people you bring in are clean, trustworthy etc. Don't sell them on the project at hand, anyone can do that. Sell what is distinguishable!!!

If you do want trustworthy, clean, reliable subs, with which you could build a working relationship, it must be win-win. 

This is from experience. We have stoped working for Gens because if we cannot make money working with them, how can we justify being in business? We cannot get our of bed in the morning to loose money.

Hourly rates are often justified. Same with opening prices. (usually prices in general) Most actual contractors I know are doing ok, but they are not rich by any strech.

I would think for time only, a 4hr service call would cost between $550 and $675. That all depends who is there, 2 Jmen or 1 Jman and 1 ap. drive time, etc.

A charge to a contractor with whom more work is possible, or there is a working relationship, of course there would be a "discount." Maybe no charge for driving. We always take care of our Gens!


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

fridaymean said:


> This is from experience. *We have stoped working for Gens because if we cannot make money working with them, how can we justify being in business? * We cannot get our of bed in the morning to loose money.





fridaymean said:


> A charge to a contractor with whom more work is possible, or there is a working relationship, *of course there would be a "discount." Maybe no charge for driving. We always take care of our Gens!*


friday, thank you for pointing out the incredible misconception that tradespeople have. If taking care of your gens actually made you money, you would still be working for some of them.

Why is it that we come on here and laugh at HO's that use the old..."if you give me a good price on this one, I have lots of work...." line, yet when a two-bit GC says it, we drop our pants and take the L?

this is not directed at tom by any means...but how many residential renovation GC's have you ever worked for that really know what they are doing? 1? 2? 3? not nearly as many as there are guys who claim to be GC's.

Residential renovations are for the most part, where the bottom of the barrel lives. It's ripe with scammers, hacks, and just complete f-ups. Yet, we cater to them and end up paying the price. Why?


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

mahlere said:


> Residential renovations are for the most part, where the bottom of the barrel lives. It's ripe with scammers, hacks, and just complete f-ups.


WOWWOWOWOWOW So I guess everyone on this board who's not in commercial is a f-up? :blink:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Patrick said:


> WOWWOWOWOWOW So I guess everyone on this board who's not in commercial is a f-up? :blink:


Calm down. He certainly has said nothing of the sort. Stop being a trouble-maker.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Patrick said:


> WOWWOWOWOWOW So I guess everyone on this board who's not in commercial is a f-up? :blink:


not exactly...



me from above said:


> Residential renovations are for the *most* part, _*where*_ the bottom of the barrel lives. _*It's ripe with*_ scammers, hacks, and just complete f-ups.


now, please reread it correctly this time..

now, large scale resi new is not without it's issues...but from our years in business, the resi renovation market is full of carpenters who call themselves GC's, yet don't know the 1st thing about running a project. Don't understand scheduling. They have the EC in before the HVAC and plumber. Many are working on a shoestring and you have to hunt them down for money. 

Sorry if you took offense, but it's been my experience that most scams that we here about are in the renovation sector. I just choose not to work in that market. So, to anyone in that market that just got offended, look in the mirror. If you are not a scammer, hack or general f-up, then do something about your end of the industry to make it better.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Renovation work (kitchens, baths, basements, additions, add-a-levels) takes far more skill to do than new work projects. I don't think I necessarily agree with renovation workers being at the bottom of the barrel. Ripping out old, installing new, and making absolutely certain that all the existing stuff still works afterwards take real skill. Especially in some of these REALLY old houses in New Jersey.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

mag,

not talking about skill level...i agree with you wholeheartedly...

i'm talking about the business sense of the GC's and contractors in that market. Contractors who think subs should work for nothing because it's only residential. EC's, PC's and HVAC's who cater to these GC's and give them discounts because of "future work" only to lose that work to someone cheaper.

I'm talking about guys simply selling on price because they don't know any other way...then cutting every corner in the book to try to make a dollar.

I'm talking about guys taking deposits, then disappearing.

I'm talking about doing a reno job for a GC, then not being able to get paid.

It's the cheapest buy in for any market...therefore it attracts a greater amount of bad seeds (for lack of a better phrase)

But i'm not talking about the skill level to get the work done.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Renovation work (kitchens, baths, basements, additions, add-a-levels) takes far more skill to do than new work projects. I don't think I necessarily agree with renovation workers being at the bottom of the barrel. Ripping out old, installing new, and making absolutely certain that all the existing stuff still works afterwards take real skill. Especially in some of these REALLY old houses in New Jersey.


I have too agree. I know when I do a reovation project, I will use much more brains then on a new construction house. Not to say I don't think when I do a new house :whistling , But I never know what I'll see in an old one. Just when I think I've seen it all......


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

I personally find that the real hacking and scamming goes on in the trades that are the easiest to enter IE have the lowest cost of startup and the least amount of regulation such as painting, handyman work, lawn mowing


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

no disagreement. what's the buy in to be a resi renovation GC?

I should add...up till recently, there were no licensing requirements for GC's in NJ...Now there is only a fine, i mean fee, they have to pay. No testing or education requirements.


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

Im a residential GC However Like TOM M I am on the job working almost every day. Sure I know what you mean about guys that quit their day job and hire someone to do everything like on flip this house or some show. Most GC's in my area though do have some employees that do the majority of the work. I do have an electrician that I always use he has several guys and several stocked trucks, he usually charges me $75/hr plus materials for service calls IE floating meters and such. I wouldn't dare call someone else. Then again he ALWAYS answers his phone and calls me back.


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

mahlere said:


> I'm talking about doing a reno job for a GC, then not being able to get paid..


What is a reno job???? sounds like a gamble:blink:


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Wow, this thread turned ridiculous as I should of expected. Now Im a criminal cause I moved a switch and an outlet 3 feet to the left. I must just be a dumb GC who dont know anything. I should just pay an electrician the same as the cost of the door to do that job. Special people--who just blew this minor topic into a violation of there trade.
Thanks for nothing you should have the challanges of a situation like that. In fact try to put that door in, leave and have an electrician and inspector come in, an HVAC, guy come in then go back rock, spackle and trim. Make a week out of an afternnon job and then charge $5,000. HAHAHAHAHAHAH STICK TO COMMERCIAL AND JUST PULL WIRES.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

acrwc10 said:


> What is a reno job???? sounds like a gamble:blink:


it is a gamble:laughing: 



tom m said:


> Wow, this thread turned ridiculous as I should of expected. *Now Im a criminal cause I moved a switch and an outlet 3 feet to the left*. I must just be a dumb GC who dont know anything. I should just pay an electrician the same as the cost of the door to do that job. Special people--who just blew this minor topic into a violation of there trade.
> *Thanks for nothing* you should have the challanges of a situation like that. In fact try to put that door in, leave and have an electrician and inspector come in, an HVAC, guy come in then go back rock, spackle and trim. *Make a week out of an afternnon job and then charge $5,000. *HAHAHAHAHAHAH STICK TO COMMERCIAL AND JUST PULL WIRES.



Tom...just cause you don't like what you are hearing, doesn't mean it's wrong. Go into your local town hall and look for the sign that tells you working on anything over 10V requires a license. So, technically, yes...moving a switch without a license makes you a criminal in this state. I didn't make the rule, i'm just telling you what it says. 

i have attempted to be nothing but cordial with my answers to your problem. Just because you don't want to follow the law, doesn't mean that we are wrong. talk to the law makers.

but, you do prove my point. you fall right into the carpenter turned GC model. you sell on nothing but price, and in order to compete with the rest of the price sellers, you need to cut corners and violate laws. Now tell me i'm wrong...since your question was 

"can a homeowner pull a permit and have me do the electrical work, since i didn't charge enough to hire a competent electrician and the hack i usually use doesn't want to talk to me. So tell me it's ok to violate the law in order to make money"

Tom, you simply asked a question, you got the answers from licensed EC's...everyone gave you the same answer. It wasn't what you wanted, so you got defensive and basically called everyone names. Good luck. 

oh,


tom m said:


> Make a week out of an afternnon job and then charge $5,000.


2 things....1) if that's the amount it takes to do the job right and legally, then yes, you should charge that much and take that long. stop trying to compete on price...you will never win when other guys will work for $50/day and be happy. and 2)


tom m said:


> I have a situation and want an opinion on what is the best way to handle it. I pulled a permit for installing new window and door headers. The first thing the town asked was what am I doing with the electric on the door way to the deck. I said I would amend the permit later. Well Im getting framing inspection tomorrow and havent done anything about the electric. I have an electrician who is _*MIA FOR 2 WEEKS so Im hung out*_ to dry here.


 you already got caught trying to not file electrical and it's already taken you longer than the week you claim it would take to do it right.

tom, in my time in this industry i have dealt with hundreds of residential gc's, only would actually work for a few. most threw up more red flags than you could imagine. your posts are full of red flags...good luck


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Mahlere, I admire your patience with the mindset of the original poster. When it comes to the handy hack carpenters I cannot myself apply such for the words "Do not cast your pearls before the swine" come to mind every time. Wanna see things get even much worse? Wait till the 08 requirement for afci on all 120 branch kicks in. It won't take long for the retards to figure out that their pliers don't blow up so much in their hands anymore. Now they will get even bolder about working electrical. What I don't understand is why Tom M is even returning to defend his position, when his time will be better spent going out to radio shack to purchase some lamp cord to fish into the walls on his door move job. And as far as Junction boxes go, why they cost more and you have to see them, so why not juct bury the twisted and tape connections with no wirenuts behind the drywall? Tom knows what he's doing, why bother hiring one of us at such high rates anyway. We are all crooks. Besides, he's just moving the switch 3 feet to the left. Nothing can go wrong until at least 10 feet of hack wiring is done. This wiring stuff is so easy, I wonder why they pay electricians any money at all. That's the problem with construction contracting. You try to make yourself 50 dollars for a hard weeks work and some crooked electrician wants to charge you a fortune to show up and move a switch 3 feet. What are those damn electricians trying to do, retire someday, with some money in the bank?  to that, not while Tom has his say in the matter.


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## Sam I am (Nov 22, 2006)

Well said Mac. Tom should have called me....I'm Sam!


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I should plan a week or so for an electrician to show, organize an inspection time frame then return to spackle and trim a week later. That good business sense. Have the customer take a vacation from work to be available. And charge 5 days of my time while IM on stand by. There is no point arguing with you primidonas. Our customers are regular people like you and me and dont like being raped when they are frequently passing your name around. I am loyal to a guy I have for sometime. I know him for 20yrs and he is only on his own for 3 so I work with him and hope he can work with me thats how the world goes around. We havent been in touch as often lately due to a slow down so I expected to be low man on the totem pole. Sometimes he gets overwhelmed and takes a while to call back I had organized a job weeks in advance and tried to get him but was left in a pinch. Now I am a hack using lamp wire for a run.  , should pay double for some extra straight wiring and dont know what Im doing or charging enough. Get off your high horses I asked for an opinion and everyone got nasty. Every electrician I meet doesnt want to do this type of crap, I try to do the right thing.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

tom m said:


> Every electrician I meet doesnt want to do this type of crap, I try to do the right thing.


I find that very hard to believe. In fact, I think I'd be pretty safe by saying that it's a load of crap. Perhaps after talking or meeting with you, they don't want to work for you? Could that be? 

What town are you in, anyhow? I'm 1000% certain that I could find a sparky in your area that could be on your job tomorrow.

You are right about one thing, though. Electrician's are a bunch of primadonna's. That's pretty much a given already.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

tom m said:


> I should plan a week or so for an electrician to show, organize an inspection time frame then return to spackle and trim a week later. That good business sense. Have the customer take a vacation from work to be available. And charge 5 days of my time while IM on stand by.


if you want to do it legally and correct...then yes.


tom, i have been nothing but cordial with my responses, you however have proven that you are not a GC, but rather a carpenter that can't work for anyone else. see a GC would schedule the EC in the afternoon or the morning following the completion of the framing. then he would schedule with the township to come out an inspect the electrical and the framing according to their procedures..then upon passing inspection, the GC would do the drywall and close everything up. The EC would put in the devices. and you would be done. That's how we do it in the real world.

Let me ask you one thing though...these customers


tom m said:


> regular people like you and me and dont like being raped when they are frequently passing your name around


, how do you think they would respond if the township shuts down the job with a stop work order because you did electrical work without a license? How would they react if there was a fire due to a bad wiring connection? How would they react if what you did was incorrect, stopped working a month later, and they had to call an EC out to fix the problem? (at a greater cost than having it done right the first time)

other than that, I agree with MD. I am a primadonna. I bust my ass everyday to run a successful business. If i'm on a jobsite, you'll find me sweeping the floors if need be. But, I have spent years learning my trade and learning how to run a business, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna work for peanuts because some two bit-carpenter-playing GC can't sell a job at the right price, then can't schedule the job, then want's me to save his ass. That my friend, is why i'll


tom m said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAH STICK TO COMMERCIAL AND JUST PULL WIRES.


but, when you can wire up a 2000A 480V MDP with 25 panelboards, transformers, control circuits, pumps, RTU's, clean power,dirty power, TVSS's, etc...then you may comment on commercial electrical wiring. Until then, I will continue to read your posts with amusement...because I don't think you "get it" or will you for quite a while.


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## electricguy (Nov 17, 2006)

I am Glad British Columbia is finally doing an Electrical safety Campaign and yes maybe its time the homeowner knows that reno contractors can not do electrical without a licensed contractor to pull the permit . sure get the homeowner to pull it and pretend the reno contractor didnt help for payment.
I cant understand whats wrong ... here there reno contractors add 25 percent to the electricians bill. thats not a bad profit.


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## NJE (May 22, 2007)

Patrick said:


> I do have an electrician that I always use he has several guys and several stocked trucks, he usually charges me $75/hr plus materials for service calls IE floating meters and such.


 
I noticed the word floating meters, this is a perfect example of poor planning, how many fires, and injuries, form meters, and risers that were pulled away from a home, to allow the siding to go up, rather then doing it right, and having it removed by an electrician, then replaced and secured.

After the fire, the excuse is, what do you expect me to do, tell the homowner they have to pay more money, "I WOULD NOT GET ANY WORK" but the danger of pulling a meter socket away from the home is never considered, the supporting screws hit the socket terminals, and the non protected service delivers all the available current.

When we see this going on every day, how can we consider these contractors, doing this type of work, as professionals.


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

NJE said:


> I noticed the word floating meters, this is a perfect example of poor planning, how many fires, and injuries, form meters, and risers that were pulled away from a home, to allow the siding to go up, rather then doing it right, and having it removed by an electrician, then replaced and secured.
> 
> After the fire, the excuse is, what do you expect me to do, tell the homowner they have to pay more money, "I WOULD NOT GET ANY WORK" but the danger of pulling a meter socket away from the home is never considered, the supporting screws hit the socket terminals, and the non protected service delivers all the available current.
> 
> When we see this going on every day, how can we consider these contractors, doing this type of work, as professionals.


I said in my post that I DO in fact have an electrician float the box. Usually only charges me $75 and he unscrews it and holds it while I install a J block or install the siding. Some towns the electric Co will send out two trucks and 5 guys who will turn off the power pull the meter off and stand there while I unscrew the box (they wont touch the box cause of a union thing) Install my siding and then they turn the power back on. They do this for FREE in most towns. The reason why I don't take the box off myself is because before I went on my own I worked for way too many guys that did it themselves and saw the thing blow up in their face at least once a year!!


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## NJE (May 22, 2007)

Patrick,

I was not calling you out on that, I was refering to the dangers of pulling a meter away, the real issue is the reason they do it, not eniough in the project to have it done right.

After reading all the postings, the problem I see is jobs being estimated with guess work, rather then real world costs, someone brought up selling the job, and that seems to be what causes most of the problems, if a homeowner is buying on price only, then the contractors job is to sell it on quality, and workmanship, by explaining the benifits of using a contractor that delivers quality to every job, and letting the customer know what it takes to make this happen, just a bit more personal selling time, can bring in more jobs.

I think we all should open up and invite good communications with GC's so we both benifit, and try to help each other understand our concerns.


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## bhe (Feb 3, 2007)

wow, I was going to drop my phone number and offer assistance, try to offer a rate at less than 500 for a half day, but once I read these posts and his attitude, I will pass. Best of luck OP.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

karma in action...


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## Celic (May 22, 2007)

mahlere said:


> karma in action...


yup


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Celic said:


> yup


damn...learn how to spell your name...


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## Celic (May 22, 2007)

mahlere said:


> damn...learn how to spell your name...


LMAO...well there goes 10 perfectly good posts down the drain


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

shhh....you're undercover:whistling


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mahlere said:


> shhh....you're undercover:whistling


....and I'm back.


LOL

What a mess....thank god I don't have 15,000 posts


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

I dont know how I got called out in post 41.

My point is that the electician may be charging too little. 50.00 an hour is dirt cheep.

Regarding discounts, they go to GCs who schedule well. If I know I will have less BS time, I can lower my rate.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I never said anything about having a problem with nearly 100 per hour for to guys. I also have alot of respect for electricians. My beef was sticking with a famliar source only to getting jerked around and then having to get bent over a half days rate for a 2 hour job. I never insulted mahlere yet was called a hack,an unproffesional who dont know what I m doing. I schedule all my work well and always have smooth progress, but as a GC you need good communications with people so when they dont call back its hell. I cant have an electrician go through every set of plans that come and price in advance. This is the situation most small GC guys deal with. So I have to calculate a bill (based on his numbers, that he suggests using) and go room by room. This room needs or requires 1 switch at xxxx amount, add dimmer, next one calls for a 3 way at 2 locations --this area calls for x amount outlets at xxxx per outlet, this needs a dedicated line, blablaba---20 high hats here, 4 data localtions bla,bla,bla add for deco--pull chains in closets and so on. So yea I can get close to where I need to be and I know whats needed. I add money where I have any doubts and try an call for info im not sure about. When Im busy I sometimes throw a little on top of his bill to keep him happy I cant do that at this time. Not that it matters he has poor communication lately. I dont price jobs by phonebook sources who have a service based business. So half day rates for 2 hour jobs I have a big problem with. Im not going to entertain anymore sarcasim.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

tom,

thanks for the clarification...i didn't start out with sarcasm..it turned that way after the commercial pulling wire comment.

now, look at this from an EC's perspective. I can tell you from experience, lots of it, that if I send one of my trucks, it will eat up 1/2 of the day for the job you are looking at. Especially if we are coming in cold and have to figure it out. What if the circuit is maxed already? What if...a bunch of different things. Secondly, is it a 1 trip job (old work) or a 2 trip job (rough and finish)?

3rd, the only way to estimate like you are mentioning is to have a regular EC that you can work with. But you can not expect someone to step in at the last moment and work at the same rates as the guy who went MIA did.

We made a lot of money by being that company that could step in at the last second and save the job. But the convenience of having us there, when needed, cost a premium. 

I could go on forever, but I'll leave you with this thought.....hypothetically, I need $800/day to cover my salary and overhead (including profit) So, I need $100 per hour for an 8 hr day, with me so far.

Now, I leave my shop/garage/house/hotel/trailer/whatever at 8 am to go to your job. I arrive at 8:45am. I set up, figure out a game plan, get ready, and start doing the install at 9:30am. I pull my wires, install my boxes, make my splices, etc and finish at 10:45am. I clean up, put the tools and material back in the truck, write up my paperwork, talk with you for a few minutes, (figure out when we need to come back to put the devices in, etc) finally leaving the job at 11:20am

How much should I bill you for?


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

NJE said:


> I noticed the word floating meters, this is a perfect example of poor planning, how many fires, and injuries, form meters, and risers that were pulled away from a home, to allow the siding to go up, rather then doing it right, and having it removed by an electrician, then replaced and secured.
> 
> After the fire, the excuse is, what do you expect me to do, tell the homowner they have to pay more money, "I WOULD NOT GET ANY WORK" but the danger of pulling a meter socket away from the home is never considered, the supporting screws hit the socket terminals, and the non protected service delivers all the available current.
> 
> When we see this going on every day, how can we consider these contractors, doing this type of work, as professionals.


This is a great post. All the siding contractor has to do is explain to the customer for 5 minutes the safety issues concerning their meter pan and add onto the price accordingly. I realize this is easier said than done, but the point is to do it and get it done! Your life (or your employees life) is more important than saving a customer $200.00.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

mahlere said:


> tom,
> 
> thanks for the clarification...i didn't start out with sarcasm..it turned that way after the commercial pulling wire comment.
> 
> ...



Who pays for the donut and coffee? :jester:

Joking aside, this is a pretty realistic scenerio.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

mahlere said:


> tom,
> 
> thanks for the clarification...i didn't start out with sarcasm..it turned that way after the commercial pulling wire comment.
> 
> ...



I'd say $400.00 plus material, markup, and profit.

Am I right?


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## NJE (May 22, 2007)

mahlere said:


> tom,
> 
> thanks for the clarification...i didn't start out with sarcasm..it turned that way after the commercial pulling wire comment.
> 
> ...


Tom,

The above post, is good information, and I would like to add, when your estimating old remod jobs, the conditions need to be considered, without a good look at the existing old work, it is almost impossible to price it right, you noted you din't have time to have someone look at every job, but if you want to turn profits on jobs you will need to consider changing that idea. I think the guys on here are really trying to help you understand how to make your business run better, and in turn, most likely with better informed customers, you can land more jobs.

As part of your selling the job, point out the old work conditions everyone has to work under, and explain the advantages to the customer of doing the job right, and adding new circuits, or having an electrician return for finish work, and also explain the permit process to your customers, let them know that all the permits on the job is for their protection, and keeping their insurance coverages whole.

Offer more personal service when selling a job then the next guy, they will appriciate your intrest.

Try this site Pro Remodeler com their business articles can be helpful in landing more customers.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Magnettica said:


> I'd say $400.00 plus material, markup, and profit.
> 
> Am I right?


for that scenerio, yep...or roughly $500...


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Good, then I'm doing it right!


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

What's a "Pre-board certified electrician"?


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Celtic said:


> What's a "Pre-board certified electrician"?


PC term for "moonlighter" or "side-jobber"?:whistling


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Thanks.... I thought that might have been one of those useless classifications they came up with - like "Qualified Journeyman" - to make a buck.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

You could also try having a demo allowance. What ever is used, is used, but it cannot go over without approval. We have demo allowances on every remodel/rehab job. We have no idea what is behind the sheetrock or plaster. It would be unfair to everyone to expect a bid under those circumstances. Because when it goes over, the customer is upset, the electrician, plumber, hvac gets screwed (and looks like a crook) and the GC ends up with a bad rep.


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## jbelectric777 (Jun 1, 2007)

*Whew !*

that was a nasty thread Huh?


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## stars13bars2 (Feb 13, 2005)

Wow; you learn something new everyday,and I thought an electrical permit was a salt water fish.:thumbup:


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Celtic said:


> Thanks.... I thought that might have been one of those useless classifications they came up with - like "Qualified Journeyman" - to make a buck.


I hope people don't have a problem with that. I want to get my license and do work legitimately but I made some poor choices along the way in my career and here I am, working without a license at night and on weekends. I worked for one EC for 11 years, the last 2 years he dropped my benefits, took me off the books, then finally let me go because he couldn't afford to pay me a stinking $20.00 per hour. Is that all my fault?

So when I was let go I contacted the board in Newark, told them my situation, and they told me that without 5 years immediately proceeding the exam date that I did not qualify for licensing.

Since then I've worked for a few EC's, started going to school at night (for licensing), and bought a van to work out of to do my side work. All of my clients are cheap bastards who barely make it worth my while to work till 9PM night after night during the busy season like right now. But this work helps pay for the van, tools, and overall has gotten me ready to go out on my own.

Now the cats out of the bag, so be it.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> I hope people don't have a problem with that. I want to get my license and do work legitimately but I made some poor choices along the way in my career and here I am, working without a license at night and on weekends.
> 
> 
> Now the cats out of the bag, so be it.


I'm not judging you.......but......you seem to still be making mistakes ~ no license, doing work w/o proper permits; bonding; insurance; etc.

What's the plan should you get caught?

The people that will ultimately be judging you are the very ones you are applying to: The Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors in Newark.
The Board likes to levy fines and such:
State Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors Minutes Page


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## POOLMANinCT (Oct 7, 2006)

well I just stumbled on this thread & can't believe it got by me. I am not an E1.

I own a construction, renovation & repair company. & I must say I can make just as much money with renovation & repair. 

why? because nobody wants to do "service" mandatory service repair & renovation work demands big bucks. because the pool of outfits willing to do it is minute. I would expect an e1, plumber, or pool guy who spends day or chunk of day to charge 1500 & see it as reasonable. even if he is an owner operator. somebody made reference that for that type of money they expect an excavator w/ an expensive machine to warrant the cost. consider the time it takes to become skilled in a trade. I'd bet most of us are "worth a 250-500k" to be the tradesman we are. so you can't balk when you have a qualified guy who actually shows up & does the work. 
md is one of the few who understands there is money in service.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Celtic said:


> I'm not judging you.......but......you seem to still be making mistakes ~ no license, doing work w/o proper permits; bonding; insurance; etc.
> 
> What's the plan should you get caught?
> 
> ...


I appreciate your insight. I realize I'm taking a chance doing what I do. But the profits are too good to not go out there and get it done. I have turned down jobs that are not in my best interest, like where previous electrical work has not been done to code, flying splices, major grounding and bonding issues, etc. I've been doing this long enough to know when to say no to a job thats not in my best interest, like a working in a bakery in a busy commercial location is not a good idea for a moonlighter, but an attic fan on a dead end street is. Believe me, no one is looking more forward to being a "board certified electrician" than I am. And with you two offering expert advice, I am well on my way to success.


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