# independent contractor????



## kwandrsn (May 10, 2014)

Lol... ill make sure i remember that


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## Burns-Built (May 8, 2009)

Keep your eye open for a legit company, if they will let you walk on and start working just to prove what you can do. You can teach someone skill but you cannot teach them to work hard. In other words get out of the situation your in asap. 
What if tomorrow you fall off a roof and dislocated your shoulder, that 'll be 2k er visit. Who is paying that?

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## kwandrsn (May 10, 2014)

Burns-Built said:


> Keep your eye open for a legit company, if they will let you walk on and start working just to prove what you can do. You can teach someone skill but you cannot teach them to work hard. In other words get out of the situation your in asap.
> What if tomorrow you fall off a roof and dislocated your shoulder, that 'll be 2k er visit. Who is paying that?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


I do have my eye out for one. Problem is i dont know many people in this trade and the jobs i go on we are the only carpenters there. But i am all about bettering myself i guess you could say. In my opinion with all the tools i have and what experience i have i think i should be making more than i am. Especially seeing i spend $30-40 a day in gas to get to jobsites. Only thing that we sometimes do that i am not experienced at is crown. When it comes to Base. Chair rail. Cabinets ect i am good. 
Mostly what we have been doing is cabinets and laminate tops here lately. Just went out of state week before last to install 12 base cabinets with tops and 3 microwave shelves about them


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## Walraven (Jan 24, 2014)

If you are an independant contractor over there are your work expenses tax deductable ie vehicle, tools, gas etc?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

barry1219 said:


> Funny story last Decemeber..in my trailer..modifying an old Porter Cable plastic case to accept my Rigid stick nailer..I hate my tools to be loose..anyway..cutting away that hard molded plastic..utility knife slips and stops when it hits the bone in my left thumb..I say CRAP!!..I take one look and grab the closest thing to cloth I could see..turned out to be a cloth nail bag with drywall screws in it..I realize this thing is too deep for crazy glue and duct tape..I have to get my daughter from school in 25 mins..I go in the house..grab a wash towel..blue tape that thing tight and jump in the shower..go to school get daughter..head to urgent care..
> 
> While I am checking in they ask for my insurance ID..I hand it over..ask what happened..I tell them I cut my hand..grab a seat..get treated..6 stitches later..checking out they ask where it happened..I said in my trailer..they asked if I was "at work"..I said.." what does that matter?.I am self-employed..my insurance is paid for by my company..where does it matter I hurt myself?..lady goes on to say it is workmans comp case if it happened at work..I said again slowly.." I am self-employed, I am insured, I pay the premiums, I am the boss, I write the checks and if you think there is going to be a problem getting this covered then they should have had a problem when the first check arrived to pay a premium with the company name having the word construction in it"...
> 
> ...


Like I said, if you LIE you might get by. I personally feel that wc should apply to EVERYONE. I too have a great health plan thrrough my wife's employer. I still cover myself through wc, even though I am not required too. It would be so nice if the playing field were truly level. Anyone who can't cover everyone should not be allowed to own a business.


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

If you are the only carpenters there etc... you arent getting your name out there, you are getting your bosses name out there. You are just one of his nameless workers.


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## kwandrsn (May 10, 2014)

Well the supers on the jobsites are getting to know me and my work. And when i work they know its for the main company and not for my cousins company.


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## kwandrsn (May 10, 2014)

And i believe i can deduct expenses on my taxes which i save every receipt


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

you're telling me you're competent at trim work and have all of your own tools and think there's no legit companies out there willing to hire you?! we're at a time in this industry where good help is hard to come by. go on craigslist, check the newspaper, etc. and reply to any/all ad looking for carpenters. your boss is also a ******* liar claiming comp is $20k per person. we pay $25k a year total for 5 employees being covered.


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## gbruzze1 (Dec 17, 2008)

The worst part about this whole thing is the boss that's screwing him is his cousins husband. With family like that, who needs to go work for a stranger. 

Good thing it's not a blood relative, otherwise you guys could be in trouble for incest, because he is fu€k!ng you


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## TLHWindows (Jan 5, 2012)

Warren said:


> So you are in essence the sub of a sub of a sub.
> 
> If this guy was really serious, he would do things the right way and hire employees. Yeah, it costs more to do this the right way. But in the end, that is the best way to get good jobs, good workers, and stay in business for the long haul.
> 
> As far as you getting hurt, The hospital will always ask if the injury happened at work. Good luck with any health insurance if you answer "yes" to that question.


Not every company needs employees to do all their work. 

All my subs I do have, have a business license, workers comp (or exemption) and insurance. 

I have run through more bad employees than bad subs. You get to hold subcontractors to higher standards on a job because of how you pay them. They don't do the work right, they have to re-do it on their dime. An employee screws it up, you get to pay them to re-do it.

They both have their ups and downs.


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## kwandrsn (May 10, 2014)

Where i live there isnt a whole lot of options trust me. I went from driving 55 miles each way for a $9 an hour factory job to what im doing now.

I still have to drive at least an hour each way to get to any jobsites now. 

I just feel like when i tell someone ive only been doing this for 7 months they will think im not skilled enough. Just because soneone has a $800 slider and $400 tablesaw all all the other tools of the trade doesnt mean they know whay they are doing. I am pretty good at what i have learned to do but i still learn tricks to doing things faster and easier every day

Plus when asked about felonies..... my answer is yes


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

kwandrsn said:


> Where i live there isnt a whole lot of options trust me. I went from driving 55 miles each way for a $9 an hour factory job to what im doing now.
> 
> I still have to drive at least an hour each way to get to any jobsites now.
> 
> ...



like I said, look for and reply to any ad you can find. throw mud at the wall til it sticks.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

It bugs the hell out of me when a newbie comes on here and asks advice and then argues with the advice given. Don't want our advice? Then don't ask for it, you're looking at combined experience of well over 100 years in this thread, and that being actual BUSINESS experience, not just hammer swinging experience, listen to what we're telling you. You are getting screwed.


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## kwandrsn (May 10, 2014)

Will do... actually on craigslist now looking around


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

kwandrsn said:


> He says work comp cost 20k per person and he cant afford that


IT will cost him that much if your pay was $ 250,000 a year.

he's treating you as a sub, but, pay rate of employee.

don't fall for his B.S..

do some research on the difference between an employee and sub.
you will see where you are, according to the IRS,OSHA and insurance companies


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

So,
If you work for a full year, full time 4o hours a week.

he will have paid you around $ 38,000 in sub contractor pay.
your going to have to pay about a third in taxes. $ 12,667.00

you are really only making $12 per hour after you pay taxes.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

though $18/hr for someone with 7 months of experience is a lot of money.


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

So,
In my opinion he's a half azzed contractor, 
doing the work is only half of what it takes to own a business.

your being screwed and taken advantage of.


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## kwandrsn (May 10, 2014)

RobertCDF said:


> It bugs the hell out of me when a newbie comes on here and asks advice and then argues with the advice given. Don't want our advice? Then don't ask for it, you're looking at combined experience of well over 100 years in this thread, and that being actual BUSINESS experience, not just hammer swinging experience, listen to what we're telling you. You are getting screwed.


First off im not arguing. I have listened and realized i am getting screwd and have been looking thru craigslist and papers all day and have a few phone calls out to construction companies. Local guy where i live just offered me starting pay of $10/hr but he doesnt have anything for a few weeks and $10/hr seems low to me but maybe ill show him what i know and maybe renegotiate


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

kwandrsn said:


> First off im not arguing. I have listened and realized i am getting screwd and have been looking thru craigslist and papers all day and have a few phone calls out to construction companies. Local guy where i live just offered me starting pay of $10/hr but he doesnt have anything for a few weeks and $10/hr seems low to me but maybe ill show him what i know and maybe renegotiate


Holy crap dude!

Call a few remodeling companies in your area!

( although your problem solving skills so far need to be expanded a bit )


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

When I first started doing construction in Chicago, I was working for this GC who paid me $11/hr as 1099. 
Everyone else working was unskilled as well and definitely not qualifying as independent contractors. He was too cheap to pay any skilled guys so every job was a nightmare. He billed us out at $75/hr and most of us argued with him about the 1099, he insisted that "you make your own hours and decide when you want to work or not, so you're self employed". He had no clue what he was doing and when we asked him certain trade specific questions, he usually said "check howto.com". 
I worked for him for a year or so... Way too long! I know, I'm a complete idiot. Learned a lot about what not to do.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

dielectricunion said:


> When I first started doing construction in Chicago, I was working for this GC who paid me $11/hr as 1099.
> Everyone else working was unskilled as well and definitely not qualifying as independent contractors. He was too cheap to pay any skilled guys so every job was a nightmare. He billed us out at $75/hr and most of us argued with him about the 1099, he insisted that "you make your own hours and decide when you want to work or not, so you're self employed". He had no clue what he was doing and when we asked him certain trade specific questions, he usually said "check howto.com".
> I worked for him for a year or so... Way too long! I know, I'm a complete idiot. Learned a lot about what not to do.


I hope that was 15 years ago.

( Dirty paper contractors! )


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

End of 2008-2009 unfortunately. At one point he told everyone he was waiting on a loan (this was a project in building he just bought) and until then we all had to wait to be paid. If we couldn't do that then take last check and leave.

I went on to make many more mistakes down the road working for other people on credit. Ive had a hard time setting firm lines on my own pay because I never buy myself things, live an extremely frugal life and manage to live below my means even with sh.tty pay.

Trying to change my ways right now when it comes to being extremely loose on collecting money and letting people talk me down in conjunction.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

asgoodasdead said:


> though $18/hr for someone with 7 months of experience is a lot of money.


The point is that he's not paying him $18 per hour if he's a subcontractor. After taxes and insurance it's more like $12 an hour. For seven months experience that's not so bad in a lot of places but I assume that he's not really insured at all and not saving for the tax man so he's going to get royally hosed after tax time comes. Or ten years from now when he gets an audit.

The problem I have with this kind of thing is that guys aren't really trying to hire subs. They're trying to hire employees with false high pay and then letting them take it on the chin.


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## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

The employeer should be damn scared if one of the guys gets hurt bad or god forbid killed, he is so fvcked! He will loose everything, why would he take that chance? 

To the OP: What happens if that was you getting hurt and never being able to work again? Disability when you haven't paid in that much? I can understand you're problems but you also have to think what is best for you. Get out while you can to a legitimate business, cause it can go very bad for you if you do not.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

kwandrsn said:


> Yeah i know that. Im guessing hes getting about $30 per person. I get 18. He pays lead guy 25 and experienced guys 20-22.
> 
> But its paying my bills and beats working at mcdonalds ya know.
> So at least until i get enough experience in this trade where i can easily get a job i kinda wanna hang around. Im learning fast and have all the tools needed ( slider. Compressor. Nail guns. Ect)


Your stuck in a mindset that will never pay off. You believe things to be a certain way abd that this is the only way you'll get work. It's just not true. Sounds like you are fit for each other. You don't want to listen to anyone and he didn't mind trading advantage of the fact.


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## kwandrsn (May 10, 2014)

Well i talked to my boss. Told him either he shows me he had workers comp that will cover me or im not working for him anymore. 

He asked what i wanted to stay. I told him $26/hr plus drive time 
He agreed as long as i get my own insurance...

So i am going this morning and seeing about getting my own ins and going to local sba to find out about getting a buisness license and going to talk to a tax specialist about my taxes

Plus i got a call from a company i called yesterday offering me a little extra work on the side when i have time to do it


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## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

kwandrsn said:


> Well i talked to my boss. Told him either he shows me he had workers comp that will cover me or im not working for him anymore.
> 
> He asked what i wanted to stay. I told him $26/hr plus drive time
> He agreed as long as i get my own insurance...
> ...


Sincerely, good luck. Hopefully it all works out


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

kwandrsn said:


> Well i talked to my boss. Told him either he shows me he had workers comp that will cover me or im not working for him anymore.
> 
> He asked what i wanted to stay. I told him $26/hr plus drive time
> He agreed as long as i get my own insurance...
> ...


I think it's great that you are standing up for yourself, but $26 an hour is still not enough as an independent contractor. You will end up making $10 an hour after you pay insurance, w/c, taxes, and all the rest of your overhead. There's a reason he okayed $26 so easily, he still knows that he is way ahead of the game. What you fail to see is he's making the real money and you only think you are.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

kwandrsn said:


> Well i talked to my boss. Told him either he shows me he had workers comp that will cover me or im not working for him anymore.
> 
> He asked what i wanted to stay. I told him $26/hr plus drive time
> He agreed as long as i get my own insurance...
> ...


Good for you! That works out to about $15 per hour around here, with basic insurance and a tiny bit for overhead. Am I understanding you correctly that HE will carry the WC and you just provide the General Liability insurance?

It's not much but it's also not bad for your first year in. It's not a bad opportunity to learn how to structure a company while having the luxury of hourly compensation vs losing your butt on bid jobs. To be honest, you should still work for someone that knows their trade for a couple years before you attempt to become any kind of real subcontractor. If you want to generalize then it's more like a minimum of 4-5 years.


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## kwandrsn (May 10, 2014)

Yes he agreed to pay work comp if i supplied 500k general liability


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I think it's great that you are standing up for yourself, but $26 an hour is still not enough as an independent contractor. You will end up making $10 an hour after you pay insurance, w/c, taxes, and all the rest of your overhead. There's a reason he okayed $26 so easily, he still knows that he is way ahead of the game. What you fail to see is he's making the real money and you only think you are.


he stated that his boss bills out $75/hr per guy! we bill out $45-55/hour per guy on hourly work and have no problem making money or paying workers comp and liability. (of course we make more money on jobs we price but still)


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## kwandrsn (May 10, 2014)

He gets $30/hr off overyone hes gonna give me $26


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

kwandrsn said:


> He gets $30/hr off overyone hes gonna give me $26


you said earlier you GUESS he gets $30/hr. guess again. maybe I read $75 elsewhere, but there's no way he's paying you $26/hr plus travel time if he's only getting $30. it would cost him money. he wouldn't even be paying you $18 if he's only getting $30. as a contractor, you always look to make 50%. unless he's just a really really bad businessman and is gonna go under.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

No matter what the new deal is, you should keep looking for another situation and leave the moment you find something stable and fair. If a guy starts out screwing you (probably figuring he could get away with it because you're an ex-con), he's not going to change his basic approach.

In California, the insurance situation is a little different. You wouldn't be able to get your own insurance (WC or liability) without being licensed in your trade. If you were an employee (as you almost certainly really are, no matter the lies and maneuvering) and you got hurt, the WC claim would go from the hospital to your employer's WC insurer, and on up the line, through the subs and generals and their insurers, until someone's insurer paid (most likely) until the claim goes to the property owner, who is the insurer of last resort. Basically, it's not supposed to be the employee's fault that the employer doesn't carry the right WC; the responsibility starts with the project owner, and goes downhill from there. And the state and the tort attorneys are pretty efficient at finding the company or person who's going to pay.

As far as an employee or micro-sub getting general liability insurance? That makes no sense. Someone with no assets and laborer's pay, who's actually an employee, paying a couple grand a year to protect the higher subs and general? That's nuts.


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## kwandrsn (May 10, 2014)

I may be wrong. He wont tell me and so i was just guessing.
I didnt figure they would pay that much just to install cabinets and trim


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

The only thing that's certain is that your cousin's husband is a liar and worse.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

kwandrsn said:


> I may be wrong. He wont tell me and so i was just guessing.
> I didnt figure they would pay that much just to install cabinets and trim


around here we bill $50 an hour for trim and cabinet work and there's guys who bill as high as $90. whatever he's paying you, double or triple it and that's what he's billing.


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## kwandrsn (May 10, 2014)

Well im hoping the side work turns into full time. This guy offered to supply all my tools minus hand tools and whatnot and pay me $25 to start plus overtime over 40 hrs and also all my expenses. He said if it all works out he can get me more work if i want it. And he said after 90 days we can talk about more money if he likes my work. I explained some of what is going on to him and he told me if i be patient with him he can get me more work than i can handle plus he is licensed and insured.

Kinda thinking about just saying screw my current situation all together and see what happens


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