# Dedicated circuits or up for local interpretation?



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm confused on dedicated kitchen elec circuits. 


Dishwasher 15amp
Refrig 15 amp
Garbage Disposal 15 amp
Small appliance outlet circuit (1) 20amp GFCI
Small appliance outlet circuit (2) 20amp GFCI
Microwave 20 amp
Range ?amp

I keep seeing back and forth how they have to be dedicated, then I see you can put the dishwasher and the garbage disposal on the same circuit. Officially all dedicated by the NEC or not? Local codes effecting these?

Can a lighting circuit or a low voltage under cabinet lighting transformer branch off of any of the circuits listed?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Any thing that is "built in" (such as a dishwasher or garbage disposal) can't have any other stuff on that circuit if the "buit in" stuff exceeds 50% of the circuit's ampacity. 210.23(A)(2)

*210.23 Permissible Loads*
*(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits.*​

*(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. 
​*_The total_

_rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than_
_luminaires (lighting __fi__xtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of_
_the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cordand-_
_plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in_
_place, or both, are also supplied._​ 
You can put a garbage disposal and a dishwasher on the same (hopefully 20 amp) circuit if you want to, because they are both 'utilizaation equipment fastened in place'. You could not, for instance, use that same circuit to power the light over the sink if any circuit you use for permanent stuff takes more than 50% of the circuit. ​ 
The two (minimum) small appliance circuits for the kitchen is easy. That's straight code. 210.52(B)(1)​ 
*210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.*
*(B) Small Appliances.**
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. *​*
*​*
​*_In the kitchen, pantry,_

_breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling_
_unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch_
_circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and_
_fl_​


_oor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop_

_outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for_
_refrigeration equipment._
_Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles_
_speci__fi__ed by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a_
_general-purpose branch circuit as de__fi__ned in 210.70(A)(1),_
_Exception No. 1, shall be permitted._
_Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration_
_equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual_
_branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater._
*(2) No Other Outlets. *​*
*​*
​*_The two or more small-appliance_

_branch circuits speci__fi__ed in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no_
_other outlets._
_Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical_
_supply to and support of an electric clock in any of_
_the rooms speci__fi__ed in 210.52(B)(1)._
_Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power_
_for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-__fi__red_
_ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units._
*(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. *​*
*​*
​*_Receptacles installed_

_in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be_
_supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits,_
_either or both of which shall also be permitted to_
_supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other_
_rooms speci__fi__ed in 210.52(B)(1). Additional smallappliance_
_branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle_
_outlets in the kitchen and other rooms speci__fi__ed in_
_210.52(B)(1). No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve_
_more than one kitchen._​ 
Now, your refrigerator and microwave that you sit on the counter CAN be on those two required small appliance circuits if you want them to be. There is no prohibition against that. If the microwave is built-in (such as a micro-hood), then you refer to the 210.23(A)(2) quoted above and see if it's more than 50% and put it on its own if it is. It is a very good idea (although not code) to give the frige and micro their own circuits.​ 
You can't tap undercabinet lighting off the small appliance circuits because of 210.52(B)(2)​ 
Ranges? Note 4 to table 220.19 says:
_4. Branch-Circuit Load. It shall be permissible to calculate the branchcircuit_
_load for one range in accordance with Table 220.19. The_
_branch-circuit load for one wall-mounted oven or one countermounted_
_cooking unit shall be the nameplate rating of the appliance._
_The branch-circuit load for a counter-mounted cooking unit and not_
_more than two wall-mounted ovens, all supplied from a single branch_
_circuit and located in the same room, shall be calculated by adding the_
_nameplate rating of the individual appliances and treating this total as_
_equivalent to one range._​ 
For one range, that table says:
Less than 3-1/3 KW, 80% of nameplate. 3-1/2 to 8-3/4 KW, 80% of nameplate, A range that is up to 12kw shall not be required to have a circuit with a capacity greater than 8KW. For ranges over 12KW but up to 27kw, you add 5% to 8KW for each kilowatt that the range is over 12 kw. ​ 

​


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Great, now I'm more confused then when I started.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I combine the dishwasher and disposal on a single 20A circuit. Separate 20A for the built in microwave. Separate circuit for the refrigerator. Two circuits (max 4 recepts each) for the countertop receptacles.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

The NEC is great (well sort of), I just use common sense which is always higher than the NEC. All that you have to do is pay attention as to how things are really used.

Case in point; Ol#2 uses a hair roller thingie amps unknown but presumed high. Do we turn it off after the rollers are in? NO! But we fire up the mega watt dryer to speed things up while we are applying makeup in the lighted magnifying mirror and all of the vanity lights are on.

Code is minimal, deal with reality. I probably should run 10GA in there, only have 12 now.:laughing:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> Code is minimal, deal with reality.


Exactly right, brother.

The NEC minimum wired home will be safe, but it may not suit the way people live and use their home. For instance, I often have 8 to 10 circuits for the kitchen alone. You may also put the receptacles in all the bathrooms on the same circuit. This is fine until you have wife in one bathroom with a hair dryer and daughter in another bathroom with a curling iron. -POP- goes the breaker. Do each bathroom receptacle on its own breaker and have less aggrivation.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

That must be why I keep seeing different versions of this. Some must be based on code and others are recommending based on best practices. Sounds like in a perfect world you would just say put it all on 20 amp independent circuits, but since that's over code and issues such as capacity come into play you get somebody saying put the refrig on a 15 amp one and combine the dishwasher and disposal. In another 5 years the trend will be 2 garbage disposals in a kitchen and it will cause guys to say put the garbage disposals on a sep circuit since the minimally engineered code falls back on percentage of capacity of a circuit.:blink:


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

mdshunk said:


> Exactly right, brother.
> 
> The NEC minimum wired home will be safe, but it may not suit the way people live and use their home. For instance, I often have 8 to 10 circuits for the kitchen alone. You may also put the receptacles in all the bathrooms on the same circuit. This is fine until you have wife in one bathroom with a hair dryer and daughter in another bathroom with a curling iron. -POP- goes the breaker. Do each bathroom receptacle on its own breaker and have less aggrivation.


Most annoying to me is when one gfi runs 3 bathrooms. Another 15 bucks and no extra labor could save years of aggravation and non-gfi extension cords running into bathrooms.


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## A.W.Davis (Oct 17, 2006)

When I am doing the electrical for my kitchens I remodel, I usually run 2 new small appliance circuits,new lighting circuit,micro hood/hood circuit,cooktop ignitor circuit...etc etc etc because almost all the houses I have remodeled the kitchen circuits branch off throughout parts of the house,so I just junction the existing circuits and keep them tied together. Then I dont have to worry because I know exactly where my new circuitry goes.

And this is all assuming that there is room in the subpanel ......if not,time to talk to the homeowner for a subpanel upgrade 

I agree with Teetor on using common sense on the new circuits.....I always just run new dedicated circuits to major appliances


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## Brendakeen (Oct 30, 2006)

*I just got "caught" on the garbage disposal requirement*

It was late, I was tired, and an outlet for an addition faced outside from an existing kitchen wall. I was going to run a hot around a corner from another outlet, but thought it would be easier to run one from the kitchen garbage disposal. Just finished it, the senior EC tapped me on the shoulder and told me I have to fix it on Monday - and gave me the code reference as to why........ 

Cutting corners (in this case literally), is never a good idea. :sad:


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## Plan 9 (Oct 22, 2006)

I love it when people say "The NEC is minimum, but good sense means exceeding the NEC requirements". This drivel is usually spewed by people unfamiliar with electrical wiring.

I sometimes have builders say this to me, my reply is "Oh Mr. Builder, I see your walls are constructed with 2x4s, wouldn't 4x4s or 2x6s make for a stronger wall?" When a wiseguy tosses out the "NEC minimum" line, you can ask about the depth of his footings or how many layers of floor sheating he's using...

People are always quick to insinuate that your work is not as good as it could be, but they hate it when you apply the same logic to them.

Buyers of electrical services generally seek the lowest bid, then when they sign the contract they suddenly reveal their hidden expectations relating to wire size, etc. This is a very common and very dishonest move.

BTW, the term "Dedicated Circuit" does not appear in the NEC.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Plan 9 said:


> I love it when people say "The NEC is minimum, but good sense means exceeding the NEC requirements". This drivel is usually spewed by people unfamiliar with electrical wiring.


So you are saying you wire to code and that's it? I agree that the NEC is a safe minimum, and there are lots of folks who exceed it thinking they are doing some great thing. But...there are MANY areas where exceeding it DOES make good sense, and IS necessary. Kitchen circuits are a prime example.
Do you wire only to code minimum all the time?







Plan 9 said:


> BTW, the term "Dedicated Circuit" does not appear in the NEC.


Neither does the term "neutral", yet we all know exactly what it means and use it every day. 
What's your point?


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## rabbitgun (Nov 16, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> Neither does the term "neutral", yet we all know exactly what it means and use it every day.


Humm................ You may want to open your copy of the NEC to the index. It contains that Neutral word.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Plan 9 said:


> Buyers of electrical services generally seek the lowest bid, then when they sign the contract they suddenly reveal their hidden expectations relating to wire size, etc.


I would rephrase that.... "Your buyers of..." We serve different markets. I'm not sure I'd be all that proud of the fact that I do the bare minimum possible for a legal install.

We operate much differently. I get great personal satisfaction from a job well done. You get great personal satisfaction from maximising profits. There is nothing wrong with either motivation. They are just different approaches, with neither one being more right or more wrong. There is a place for both. Being that I am primarily a service electrician, I find it valuable that guys do mimimum NEC installs. It makes more of the so-called "moves, adds, and changes" work for service guys.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Plan 9 said:


> I love it when people say "The NEC is minimum, but good sense means exceeding the NEC requirements". This drivel is usually spewed by people unfamiliar with electrical wiring.
> 
> I sometimes have builders say this to me, my reply is "Oh Mr. Builder, I see your walls are constructed with 2x4s, wouldn't 4x4s or 2x6s make for a stronger wall?" When a wiseguy tosses out the "NEC minimum" line, you can ask about the depth of his footings or how many layers of floor sheating he's using...


So how do you know that those 2x4 walls are not an "upgrade" from 2x3 walls? Not very common to see 2x3 used, but I bet you could get away with it more times than you think. 

As far as I go... Depth of footings always exceeds the local requirents by a few inches at least. As well as diameter of footing. Joists and beams always exceed minimums.


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## Plan 9 (Oct 22, 2006)

I "Charge Large" for custom homes, and I deliver a product commensurate with what I'm charging, extra circuits, special dimmers, the works.

But when the customer wants a low ball price, I deliver a low ball job. This is a common practice for all industries, you can buy a chevy or you can buy a cadillac...


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## Plan 9 (Oct 22, 2006)

K2eoj said:


> Most annoying to me is when one gfi runs 3 bathrooms. Another 15 bucks and no extra labor could save years of aggravation and non-gfi extension cords running into bathrooms.


If people can't reset a GFI, they shouldn't be living indoors. Imagine the Neanderthal that notices the receptacle is no longer working and "spends years running extension cords into the bathroom" (I paraphrase).

And it's not $15 extra, it's $3,120 extra. That's 2 Extra GFIs per house, 2 houses per week, 52 weeks a year. When people talk about the cost of things, they forget the fact that we are not planning to retire after we finish this house, we are running a business that runs year round.

Also, a certain percentage of GFIs fail. By installing 3 times as many GFIs as required, you've increased the chances of a failure by triple!!!!! The snappy answer is not always the right one.

Are you a ham?


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

rabbitgun said:


> Humm................ You may want to open your copy of the NEC to the index. It contains that Neutral word.


Ok, well it is in there. I was more making a point about the correct term.

In most cases it is referred to as the "grounded neutral".


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## Plan 9 (Oct 22, 2006)

The term "Grounded Neutral" does not appear in the NEC.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Can a nice moderating lurking in the area snip off the posts after #9? The intelligence quotient fell about 60 points on this thread after that.


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## rabbitgun (Nov 16, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Can a nice moderating lurking in the area snip off the posts after #9? The intelligence quotient fell about 60 points on this thread after that.


Actually it went up about 120 from what I can see. :thumbsup:


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Plan 9 said:


> The term "Grounded Neutral" does not appear in the NEC.


It certainly does, but not in the definitions. Which is what I meant by "neutral" not being there. 
Neither are in the definitions but both are referred to.

I somewhat agree with Mike. I think more that the atmosphere has gotten a whole lot darker around here the past few weeks.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

rabbitgun said:


> Actually it went up about 120 from what I can see. :thumbsup:


Matter of opinion, maybe you are using the thread titled "connections to the back of a switch" as your bench mark? That one there is a real nice showcase for electricians as a professional trade group.


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## rabbitgun (Nov 16, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Matter of opinion, maybe you are using the thread titled "connections to the back of a switch" as your bench mark? That one there is a real nice showcase for electricians as a professional trade group.


Ah, But you spoke of IQ. Not a trade group or professionals.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Plan 9 said:


> If people can't reset a GFI, they shouldn't be living indoors. Imagine the Neanderthal that notices the receptacle is no longer working and "spends years running extension cords into the bathroom" (I paraphrase).
> 
> And it's not $15 extra, it's $3,120 extra. That's 2 Extra GFIs per house, 2 houses per week, 52 weeks a year. When people talk about the cost of things, they forget the fact that we are not planning to retire after we finish this house, we are running a business that runs year round.
> 
> ...


Not active. I almost forgot what you were asking.

We're not required to have the right answer all the time. I'm generally happy with 1 in 10. I think we're allowed 15 wrong answers, (in a row), before getting booted off. Some guys really push the limit.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

> K2: I still operate on the local 2 meter boxes, but amateur radio aint what it used to be.


 Hard to complete with cell phones. I remember when I was the only one i knew who could make a phone call from the truck. I helped maintain a repeater on Pikes Peak in the 70's. That was a pretty good spot for a repeater.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

> Also, a certain percentage of GFIs fail. By installing 3 times as many GFIs as required, you've increased the chances of a failure by triple!!!!! The snappy answer is not always the right one.


When one fails and has 3 bathrooms out for several days/weeks you increase your chances the HO or property manager is going to be PO'd if he finds out it didn't have to be that way, for 15 bucks.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Plan 9 said:


> I don't understand what you mean by "darker". Your penchant for ambiguity apparently extends beyond the electrical code. When you say "darker", are you referring to the insecure feeling you get when someone doesn't accept your word as gospel? Does agreeing with Mike make you feel a little better?


When I say darker I mean less friendly than it has been for years. Some of the newer members here have a penchant for intentionally stirring trouble, bad mouthing other members, and generally causing ill feelings.



I don't need you or anybody to take my word as gospel either. If I am right, I am right. If I am wrong I will humbly admit it.
I have seen your past posts and you sir are NOT someone I feel the need to agree with.
We are light years apart in the ways of business. You are mr. big time, big shot electrical contractor who will do anything for a buck. And the almighty buck is all that counts.
And I am a small contractor with character.


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

Speedy Petey said:


> When I say darker I mean less friendly than it has been for years. Some of the newer members here have a penchant for intentionally stirring trouble, bad mouthing other members, and generally causing ill feelings.


I agree which is why you will find that the posts have been removed.

I'm not editing things anymore. If people want to attack others in their posts then the whole post will be removed.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> When I say darker I mean less friendly than it has been for years. Some of the newer members here have a penchant for intentionally stirring trouble, bad mouthing other members, and generally causing ill feelings.


I imagine I'm part of that problem, but se la vi.

I was just reading that entire 'backstabbing' post and wanted to quote on something plan said because it had me laughing my a55 off, but it was removed while reading.

Anyway about the unskilled illegal labor, now yall see where I'm coming from (organized/unorganized labor).

Oh well, can't say it's a bad thing, it's actually a grand idea having dozens of guys readily available whenever you need them to come dig fenceposts or whatnot for cheap to help you get a project a done, hell all our roots were 'illegals' at some point, isn't that what the statue of liberty is all about? 

Sorry to change the subject (whatever it was in here)


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Actually the skilled/unskilled to organized/unorganized labor comparison is apples to oranges.


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