# Time For Me To Speak Up



## Reg (Dec 15, 2013)

I recently have been hired as a manager of sorts for an architect/ contractor. After working this job for two months now, I can clearly see problems. One of the sites has no porto-john. I asked the two Native American workers where they go and they said behind big rocks or dirt piles. See what I mean? Not a good way to treat the workers and a potential fine if caught. It's just bad practice. 

Another problem is morale. The men are overworked. My employer has no problem getting jobs and his end results are beautiful homes for high end customers, but he burns bridges with employees. There is a lot of grumbling behind his back and a high turn over. The main problem I can see so far is he has employees rather than hiring ICs where ICs would be better suited. He has a high turn over of workers because he doesn't put enough bodies on a job and has unrealistic deadlines. I can see this is going to be a challenging job. He hired me at a point where he was exasperated and frustrated at losing workers so I think he wants to make improvements. I believe he is having a hard time recognizing his faults. I suppose this is where I come in. Joy. 

Anyway, I just wanted to share this here. I bore my friends with this talk and I figure I have an audience here who understands or can relate somehow. Thanks for listening.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Reg said:


> I recently have been hired as a manager of sorts for an architect/ contractor. After working this job for two months now, I can clearly see problems. One of the sites has no porto-john. I asked the two Native American workers where they go and they said behind big rocks or dirt piles. See what I mean? Not a good way to treat the workers and a potential fine if caught. It's just bad practice. Another problem is moral. The men are overworked. My employer has no problem getting jobs and his end results are beautiful homes for high end customers, but he burns bridges with employees. There is a lot of grumbling behind his back and a high turn over. The main problem I can see so far is he has employees rather than hiring ICs where ICs would be better suited. He has a high turn over of workers because he doesn't put enough bodies on a job and has unrealistic deadlines. I can see this is going to be a challenging job. He hired me at a point where he was exasperated and frustrated at losing workers so I think he wants to make improvements. I believe he is having a hard time recognizing his faults. I suppose this is where I come in. Joy. Anyway, I just wanted to share this here. I bore my friends with this talk and I figure I have an audience here who understands or can relate somehow. Thanks for listening.


Please excuse my ignorance, but whats ICs? My guess is independent contractors? You will be surprised what happy employees will do for you and the company. Loyalty goes both ways. Hell if your employees are happy they might start meeting those deadlines. You should hire more help. Simply put more bodies on the job will take some burden off the over worked. More bodies doesn't necessarily mean the job will cost more.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Any builder who can't at least provide a place to go to the bathroom is a scum bag. 

In my opinion, you are treading on thin ice. If I was your employer and found this thread, you'd be kicking rocks. 

Doesn't sound like much of a loss though.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

When you say Native American, is this work done by Native Americans on a reservation?


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## Okiecontractor (Oct 15, 2012)

Not trying to stir anything up by why is it when people tell stories they have to tell the race of a man? Especially when the story has nothing to do with their race. Two black guys, two indians two white dudes.... 
Everyone has to use the bathroom. Behind a tree or not.


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## Reg (Dec 15, 2013)

Californiadecks- yes IC=Independent Contractor
and they live on the reservation but work off the res.

Okiecontractor- I'm with you on this when I hear the newscasters on the radio distinguish between races but I purposely, put in their race to "fill in" more of how my employer operates. I should have followed up to say the non Indian workers on other sites have a john, so my bad.

Yes, I think my work with him may be short lived if he's not willing to listen. If he hired me as a manager than I need to speak up for safety and comfort of the workers, not just getting his jobs done fast. He will either take my advice or fire me. I'm pretty sure though, if some changes are implemented, efficiency level will improve, morale will go up and jobs will go smoother and quicker. 

I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

If you are THE manager then pick up the phone and have a john dropped off. That should be easy to fix. 

Talk straight with this guy about your ideas on how you NEED to run these jobs in order to make them profitable. Don't be a pushover. You will either gain respect or find it's not the place for you. But you better bring the results.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Reg said:


> I recently have been hired as a manager of sorts for an architect/ contractor. After working this job for two months now, I can clearly see problems. One of the sites has no porto-john. I asked the two Native American workers where they go and they said behind big rocks or dirt piles. See what I mean? Not a good way to treat the workers and a potential fine if caught. It's just bad practice.
> 
> Another problem is moral. The men are overworked. My employer has no problem getting jobs and his end results are beautiful homes for high end customers, but he burns bridges with employees. There is a lot of grumbling behind his back and a high turn over. The main problem I can see so far is he has employees rather than hiring ICs where ICs would be better suited. He has a high turn over of workers because he doesn't put enough bodies on a job and has unrealistic deadlines. I can see this is going to be a challenging job. He hired me at a point where he was exasperated and frustrated at losing workers so I think he wants to make improvements. I believe he is having a hard time recognizing his faults. I suppose this is where I come in. Joy.
> 
> Anyway, I just wanted to share this here. I bore my friends with this talk and I figure I have an audience here who understands or can relate somehow. Thanks for listening.



If you tell him the truth and he doesn't want to hear it you may be part of that employee turnover :whistling

Burning out employees isn't a good thing. All you will accomplish is getting work that gets worse and worse. When the moral hits a low then the thefts start because the employees thing the boss owes them something (other than a paycheck).

How are the payscales? If you are being paid above average then a little overtime is something you might expect. If he is paying standard or below standard wages you will naturally have a high turnover.

Having a porta potty on the jobsite is a law in many areas. They aren't that expensive and if he is doing high end jobs for wealthy clients it shouldn't be a problem unless he is a real tightwad.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Turn over is due to work environment. You have to pay a premium for people to keep working under poor conditions long term. Good working conditions where the guys feel appreciated is a lot cheaper.


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## Reg (Dec 15, 2013)

"If you tell him the truth and he doesn't want to hear it you may be part of that employee turnover"

Yes, I'm well aware of that. But who's going to do it? I figure it fits in the job description of manager. The employees are too afraid for fear of losing their job. If I don't, I'll see myself as a lame manager and that's just depressing. So, it's a risk I'm willing to take. Okay, I feel pumped. I'm out of here. Have a good day at work all.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

Reg said:


> "If you tell him the truth and he doesn't want to hear it you may be part of that employee turnover"
> 
> Yes, I'm well aware of that. But who's going to do it? I figure it fits in the job description of manager. The employees are too afraid for fear of losing their job. If I don't, I'll see myself as a lame manager and that's just depressing. So, it's a risk I'm willing to take. Okay, I feel pumped. I'm out of here. Have a good day at work all.


I don't know how things work where you are but here in Ontario, if the ministry finds violations they can ticket everyone from the employee, to the manager to the company, so you may be on the hook for a ticket yourself.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

I know a company that brought in a "manager" to help them run their company as it was pretty screwed up. It was one of those "secret things" where the guy worked with the crews for a while and the crews later called that person "the spy".

I don't know what the spy/manager/adviser told that company, but from what I know of that company, it's very screwed up and that starts firmly at the top, with the owners. They don't want to pay good money, so they get not good people, don't have good tooling, skrimp on hourly reimbursement, etc. Anyone worth a hoot quickly moves on as soon as they can and the dead enders stay.

So do your time there, come up with a structure/plan and implement it, or bring it up to the owner. If they balk/refuse, well then it's pretty apparent what/who the problem is, so you too can be one of the good people that leave such companies. I've done it more than a few times myself.



Okiecontractor said:


> Not trying to stir anything up by why is it when people tell stories they have to tell the race of a man?


Actually, it may. If one contractor had a whole crew of illegals and another had a whole crew of americans, is that significant/telling about the contractors?

Most of the construction work in the mountains of colorado is about 90% mexicans, for larger/commercial projects there, even higher. I find it interesting as I've not ran across a lot of indians in the trades. How he knew they were indians, I don't know. I've ran across far more russians/ukranians/poles than blacks in the trades.

Funny how talking about this stuff est verboten these days.....


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## Okiecontractor (Oct 15, 2012)

CO762 said:


> Actually, it may. If one contractor had a whole crew of illegals and another had a whole crew of americans, is that significant/telling about the contractors?


Sometimes yes it is significant. This time it wasn't. Illegal or not, Native American or not I'm sure they would appreciate a port a john.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

It sounds to me like this guy is unknowingly insenstive to his employees. One mistake that I've seen many times over is when a GC fails to provide the infrastructure for the comfort and convenience of the workers. Typically they say, "I hire them, they do the work, I pay them. That's all there is to it."

But there is indeed more to it. When you are the manager, supervisor, boss, etc. you have the luxury of being able to come and go whenever you please. If you have a personal need (food, bathroom, etc) you can handle that on your own terms. 

But a construction worker who is stuck in the confines of being on that site needs a picnic table or some other place to eat, a restroom, a place to store personal items, and possibly a food vendor if there aren't any nearby stores. 

It would be different if the workers could come and go whenever they wanted to and they could take breaks as long as they deemed necessary but they are "chained" to the site. The half-hour that they get isn't nearly enough time to go anywhere and get back unless there is a spot right next door to the site. 

So if I were in your position, I would bring up the items that I mentioned above because while all of this is obvious to the workers, this may not be as obvious for the GC.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Okiecontractor said:


> Sometimes yes it is significant. This time it wasn't. Illegal or not, Native American or not I'm sure they would appreciate a port a john.


True. I just find the strangest things interesting I guess. From my experience, some groups put up with things that other groups wouldn't, so a lot can be told by the ownership from their crew, the makeup of their crew, their tools, etc. 

With the mexicans having taken over the construction trade in the mountains (not a lot of living areas there one can afford also), they are no longer the cheap labor that they used to be as they have options and will bail on one job to another for more money, be treated better, etc. 

So to me in my warped mind, it'd be interesting to know what these indians do, their skillsets, where they are staying, etc. Sometimes people bring up "construction workers" up from Denver and sometimes these people are snagged from the street/shelters.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Staffing strategy is just a tough thing. 

A local paint contractor hires guys with no license, sells them whatever tools they need (on time, taken out of their pay check), and they're really grateful / loyal. The van picks them up at home and drops them off every day His long term / lead people have their licenses.

Getting to use the best tools around is attractive to some, or being on the best crew. Nobody likes working on a site with no john.

Oh, yeah, you always have to pay more if people are working with / for jerks.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Okiecontractor said:


> Not trying to stir anything up by why is it when people tell stories they have to tell the race of a man? Especially when the story has nothing to do with their race. Two black guys, two indians two white dudes.... Everyone has to use the bathroom. Behind a tree or not.


Because culture is different with different races. And rather or not it's on a reservation has a lot to do with culture. That's why. I've done a lot of work for the Indians. It is a little different situation then working for the rich banker in Anaheim Hills.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

This thread ties in perfectly with the others about being in the trades. I find the lack of electrical power on a jobsite disrespectful, let alone the lack of a porta-john.

No, I'm not bringing my own generator. No, I'm not walking across a 2x10 to get your countertops into the kitchen. No, I'm not gonna piss in the weeds.


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## Okiecontractor (Oct 15, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> Because culture is different with different races. And rather or not it's on a reservation has a lot to do with culture. That's why. I've done a lot of work for the Indians. It is a little different situation then working for the rich banker in Anaheim Hills.


I mostly agree with you but by saying I saw a black guy walking down the road today and a bird crapped on him is pointless. Doesn't matter that he is black. Just that he was crapped on. Its irrelevant to the story.


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

CO762 said:


> Most of the construction work in the mountains of colorado is about 90% mexicans, for larger/commercial projects there, even higher. I find it interesting as I've not ran across a lot of indians in the trades. How he knew they were indians, I don't know.


I know some guys who work in the SW part of the state about a 1/3 of the work force is native americans. It's a funny dynamic, the mexicans vs the native americans, if there is a large % of native americans then the mexicans for some reason don't like to be there.

whats also funny is the mexicans will make fun of each other, the native/tribal mexicans usually get ragged on by the more non native/spanish mexicans

Instead of 90% I'd say the work force is split, 50% white 50% hispanic, Had a guy on a job this summer, his family had been in the area a couple hundred years longer than my family has been in the usa. Crazy stuff, asked him why he's never left the valley, he says he went to college on the front range and that was enough.

speaking of workers, jerk boy better work till 11 tonight and get things finished up since he was hanging out down on federal blvd all morning

what was the question?


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Okiecontractor said:


> Its irrelevant to the story.


Disagree. The subject is about the owner's management of his company and a few examples are given by the OP, high turnover being one of them.



> I can clearly see problems...Not a good way to treat the workers


I just took an outside-in view of the company's crew, and that tells a lot about the owner/manager/lead. This isn't about a random act of an individual walking and a bird flying by as there's no causality to that other than randomness. Who his crew is, who remains working for him is anything but random.

If it will make you feel more comfortable, the mexicans (in mexico) treat the mexicans from southern mexico (the indians) like crap when they use them at their jobsites down there, and they complain how they defecate out in front of everyone, etc. But what they don't mention is the rates the mexicans pay the indian mexicans, no mexican would work for--they'll go to the states, so the crews on those type jobs are full of mexican indians...treated like dirt.


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## Okiecontractor (Oct 15, 2012)

CO762 said:


> Disagree. The subject is about the owner's management of his company and a few examples are given by the OP, high turnover being one of them.


So there is a high turnover rate in native American workers?


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## Okiecontractor (Oct 15, 2012)

I'm not really complaining. It was a legitimate question anyway.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

FF,
I was wondering if he was in the four corners area. Then there'd be more indians around as that's that area.

 I'm glad you've experienced that type of diversity on jobsites.  That always made it more fun. Mexicans are used to being the overwhelming majority at construction sites, so it would make sense, but I'm sure there's a cultural thing between the two. Maybe what I alluded to as mexicans really look down on mexican idians--no mexican wants to be one. What I'd get a kick out of is the russians yelling at the mexicans because the mexicans couldn't speak english. Another thing that was funny was the americans (that look mexican) get pissed because everyone would come up to them and start speaking spanish to them.

All funny stuff that provides a sometimes fun diversion. My background is mostly commercial/large multi-family type. 



> speaking of workers, jerk boy better work till 11 tonight and get things finished up since he was hanging out down on federal blvd all morning
> 
> what was the question?


Lizz's Gig still on federal? Some things I miss about denver, some things I don't. Haven't made up my mind about that bar yet.... lol.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Okiecontractor said:


> So there is a high turnover rate in native American workers?


No idea. Trying to get more info from the OP.


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## Okiecontractor (Oct 15, 2012)

CO762 said:


> No idea. Trying to get more info from the OP.


In all honesty though the native Americans around here are known to be pretty lazy and drunks.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

The only ones I ever had any exposure to were in denver and they were all street drunks from pine ridge. Dated one once and she was a dry drunk and was fun when she wasn't psycho. She was from MN though and was half black.

The only group I don't have any experience with in the trades are indians and blacks and I think that's because there aren't a lot of either in colorado. Interesting as I've not thought too much about that before.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> No, I'm not bringing my own generator.


But if you do, everyone wants to plug in everything from their phone charger to their battery tools. Then there is always the goofball that has the 50 amp floor sander who complains that the breaker keeps popping.


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## Reg (Dec 15, 2013)

SectorSecurity, That's something else! I don't believe the U.S. is that strict but it does make me want to review the law to see exactly what my responsibilities are and everything that goes with it. 

Originally Posted by: LeoG ••• Burning out employees isn't a good thing. All you will accomplish is getting work that gets worse and worse. When the moral hits a low then the thefts start because the employees thing the boss owes them something (other than a paycheck)•••

Yup, I agree fully. I would want employees that were happy to be there. Work can be satisfying when you feel respected. 

Kowboy, Amen to what you said. Somebody teach me how to use the bloody quote function. 

Hey Okiecontractor. Start a new thread already. I said, "my bad" a long time ago 

CO762, you asked about the N. American's skill sets. I'm not sure because I've only been working for this Architect/Contractor for two months and we are at the start of a job, but, when I installed cabinets on a past job that used this particular architect, I saw the very same guys doing finish work so I imagine they can everything in between as well. I know two of the guys have worked for my employer for the past five years.


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## Reg (Dec 15, 2013)

And I should follow up by this is my first time working with Native Americans. I come from cabinetry which was mostly Germans and white dudes. But these guys put up with a lot in my opinion. Too much.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I would not work for anyone who is so prejudiced he will allow for a bathroom for some but not others.


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## Reg (Dec 15, 2013)

Seems that way huh Jaws? I hear you buddy, but I'm still going to work for him. I feel a strong desire to make change.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Around here houses are built with crawl spaces, not basements. When there is not a porta john on site, guess where workers go to take a crap? Ask me how I know. 

Hint: I used to install Jenn Aire ranges with down draft vents that ran through the crawl space.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Reg said:


> Seems that way huh Jaws? I hear you buddy, but I'm still going to work for him. I feel a strong desire to make change.


Hope you make it work, buddy. :thumbsup:

I feel like this industry is going to chit most of the time now, not like when I was a boy.

For me, the day I can't look my trades or my own men in the eye, proud of what we build and the environment I provide, I will move on. There are easier ways to make money. 

Most "builders" now couldn't build a straight chit house with out subs. I have no respect for them, and it pisses me off they claim my profession. 

Any GC worth his salt, especially those who wore bags to get to where they are at, should have enough respect for his hands and trade contractors to provide a bathroom and decent wage.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Your local jurisdictions ( bldg inspectors) don't check for proper sanitation on the job site?

If your employer is this flagrant about providing a chitter there are probably other safety violations at the site(s) also.

Hard to imagine someone in the hood hasn't complained.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

griz said:


> Your local jurisdictions ( bldg inspectors) don't check for proper sanitation on the job site?
> 
> If your employer is this flagrant about providing a chitter there are probably other safety violations at the site(s) also.
> 
> Hard to imagine someone in the hood hasn't complained.


This chit bag is par for the course here, unfortunately.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

We not only have to show our building department the paperwork, we have to have a catch pan, because if there is any residual cleaning water spilled, we will get fined. This stuff is SOP when pulling permits.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> We not only have to show our building department the paperwork, we have to have a catch pan, because if there is any residual cleaning water spilled, we will get fined. This stuff is SOP when pulling permits.


I doubt there is any place in California where you could get away with out having a porta potty. 

Water Quality Control Board would get a HUGE chunk of your arse...:laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

griz said:


> I doubt there is any place in California where you could get away with out having a porta potty. Water Quality Control Board would get a HUGE chunk of your arse...:laughing:


And I don't mind forking over 88 bucks a month, its the best money spent on a jobsite, my chitters stay clean too, it tells a lot about the subs your hiring. They are all house broke. :thumbsup:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> And I don't mind forking over 88 bucks a month, its the best money spent on a jobsite, my chitters stay clean too, it tells a lot about the subs your hiring. They are all house broke. :thumbsup:


Wow. Something is cheaper in CALI:whistling

I pay over a bill a month


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

mudpad said:


> Yeah, well my routine is that I take care of that at home every morning before I head out the door where all I gotta do is take a leak in those things. Obviously other people are either less regular than me, or it just doesn't bother them to sit down in those things.


A good general eats with his men, this is a lesson from George Washington. This way he knows first hand their suffering and grievances. :laughing:


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## littlefred811 (Dec 16, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> Reg:
> 
> You just click on the "quote" button at the bottom right of this box and the quote appears. Then type your message.


Hey, it worked!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Brian Peters said:


> If you're on your phone, long press on a post and it gives you options; quote, thank, report, select...hit select and it turns it yellow. You can select multiple posts this way, then hit the button on your phone that opens up more options, should have multi quote on there. I haven't actually used it, just messed around a bit.


My ipad doesn't have a select button


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Californiadecks said:


> My ipad doesn't have a select button


You don't have a drop down arrow to the right on every post? That is where the select "button" is on mine.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Neither do I. I have a post number and a MOD check box What is this arrow you speak of


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## Okiecontractor (Oct 15, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Neither do I. I have a post number and a MOD check box What is this arrow you speak of


Mine has an arrow but not a post number or a MOD check box.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

OK, are we talking phone or computer here. Well, either way mines the same because I run in desktop mode on my phone.


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

Like this? Over on the right? Right below the time.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Oh, phone. No, mine looks like CT on a laptop when I do my phone. I don't use the CT App or anything.


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Oh, phone. No, mine looks like CT on a laptop when I do my phone. I don't use the CT App or anything.


Using the website is a pain on the phone with all those wonky ads and whatnots. 

The app isn't bad, but like the regular site, the search function is crap.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I have a big screen for a phone,5" and set the text to show up 200% larger. Works good for me most of the time. Occasionally the first post gets overridden by ads and you can't see the right side of the writing of the post. And it is ANNOYING!!!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Kent Whitten said:


> You don't have a drop down arrow to the right on every post? That is where the select "button" is on mine.


Thanks Kent,
My ipad only has a share, report, thanks and quote. But no select


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Brian Peters said:


> If you're on your phone, long press on a post and it gives you options; quote, thank, report, select...hit select and it turns it yellow. You can select multiple posts this way, then hit the button on your phone that opens up more options, should have multi quote on there. I haven't actually used it, just messed around a bit.


Referring to a yellow button here, I don't have one that does this


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## Brian Peters (Feb 2, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> Referring to a yellow button here, I don't have one that does this


Sorry, no yellow button. It highlights the quote (actually the person I'm quoting )in yellow.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Californiadecks said:


> Thanks Kent,
> My ipad only has a share, report, thanks and quote. But no select


It must be something different for the iPhone version then. I don't have access to that app though. The Android version says 


quote
edit
report
select
send private message

What about under the menu? Or is there a menu on the iPhone app?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm ok with it, I was just wondering if it was a setting or something I was doing wrong. Looks like it's my ipad. Thanks


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