# Why does it seem like no one wants to work...



## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

bryanad86 said:


> to be honest after the few weeks, i was so dissapointed i decided to hire a bunch of guys, put em on seperate jobs, and see how they do. all of them claimed to be well rounded in all the trades, none of which were. so i let em go, the last 2 i have are pretty decent with the quality, but the work ethic is garbage, one of em seriously had 1 room of molding left, a small room, maybe 30 min just to get it in, and he decided to stop, clean up and leave. i not only am now paying him to clean up and leave, without the job done, i have to pay him to bring his tools back, set back up and finish his 30 min of work. im sorry but to me thats just plain lazy.


Obviously hes getting paid by the hour. Pay him by the job. Or tell him he gets and extra twenty bucks if the jobs is finished by x. Or he gets to leave when the work is done or the clock hits 5 whichever comes first. Ive had the best luck with a random small bonuses and some free hours.

If its not random then they can game the system. Fire someone every now and then to keep em on their toes.


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## 98crewcab (Oct 7, 2013)

I pay them by the job. Cant do the hourly thing. I see $$$ standing there with hands in pockets. My buddy gets $300 for the day. sometimes a 6 hr day, sometimes a 12 hr day......If he was a bit faster, id hire him full time.....


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## csv (Aug 18, 2009)

I read something a few months back, not sure how accurate it is, but here in WA minimum wage is like $9.32/hr and welfare works out to be like over $15 an hour. Young people are so entitled they think they are worth $25 an hour with no skill set what so ever. wait, I take that back, they can take a mean selfie and post about it on Facebook . WTF is happening


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

csv said:


> I read something a few months back, not sure how accurate it is, but here in WA minimum wage is like $9.32/hr and welfare works out to be like over $15 an hour. Young people are so entitled they think they are worth $25 an hour with no skill set what so ever. wait, I take that back, they can take a mean selfie and post about it on Facebook . WTF is happening


Yep, minimum wage is 10.00 bucks an hour here and welfare still pays more.


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## sailfish27 (Jan 25, 2014)

Closer to 80K where I live once you've factor in all the goodies. Most people now use SSI. For someone with a child you are entitled to 30k a yr. tax free. That's 40k to those of us who pay taxes. You are then entitled to free health care. Mine costs 10k a year. You also get food stamps 4-5k. Half off your housing another 10k where I live. Discounts on your cable, electric, heat. Your child will not have to pay for school lunch or for sports etc. Obviously a free phone with minutes and free legal advise.

Then if your ambitious, you go to school. Tuition is free then they give you grants for your living expense, in effect paying you to go to school. Tuition here is 20- 40k a year. If your really ambitious SSI allows you to work as long as you don't make over 18k unless of course you work under the table then you can make as much as you like. 


You would have to be a fool to work for less than 20/hr. here or a druggie.


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## GTX63 (Sep 9, 2011)

I had a crew of guys that I have used a few times when I had overflow. They would call, text and email about every other day for work and pester the shikk out of me. They have all the ambition in the world when they need a job; it was when I gave them work they slacked off. Last job was a simple order in an empty property being rehabbed-new living room carpet, new front and rear porch decking, repair some siding and replace some guttering. Should have taken three days if they took two days off. Well, then it starts-they need a generator to run their equipment, then it was too hot, then the next day was too hot, and the sub said his guys would walk if he made them work in the heat. By the end of the week the crew leader is going out of town but promises to finish up (start) Sunday. I sent another crew over, completed the job in a half day. Of course the guy is mad and wants paid.

Moral of the story- some guys run a business and other guys babysit. I'm too busy with my own kids to have to live someone else's drama.

When you find good help, treat them right and pay them well. Quality subs/employees don't usually bounce from job to job.


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## Mr Knucklehead (May 31, 2014)

tell me you're joking with this statement: 
"put em on seperate jobs, and see how they do"

I have volumes to say about this subject, but before I run off to work I'll say this.

Don't expect things to get done the way you want them to get done unless you're supervising your workers. Not saying you need to be over their shoulder ever second, but you better be intimately involved with each part of the project. 

A small business is just that, a small business. You're not a CEO sitting at the conference table looking at charts acting like a big shot with well compensated (well vetted) people in the field.

I'll agree finding good people is a challenge, but there are plenty of good honest hard working people out there looking for a good honest and reasonable boss. 

Enjoy the day


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

Why work?

It used to be you worked to keep from starving...fixed that!
It used to be people had too much pride to accept hand outs...fixed that!
It used to be that you had to work to support a family...fixed that!

This belongs in the family of what can happen will happen. We've created a society where people don't need to work, so they don't. It's no mystery.


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## RH*carpenter (Mar 24, 2014)

Interesting.

California's contractor licensing laws requires the person who qualifies for the license to be the site supervisor for all the licensee's projects. How do you manage to be at multiple sites at the same time? The last I knew the human body was only capable of being in one place at any given moment.

The purpose of the law is to ensure that the job is properly supervised. This cannot be done from off site.


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## GTX63 (Sep 9, 2011)

There was a time where you had to work in order to eat, support your family, pay the bills.
Now, there are some who are satisfied with working 2-3 days a week to supplement their workman's comp, unemployment, social security/disability, section 8, etc.
I knew a couple of carpet guys that did excellent work. They showed up on site at 7 am and worked like gangbusters until noon. Finished most jobs in one day. I told them I'd be glad to give them all the work they could handle. They refused? Why? Because everyday at noon, they took that day's pay and went to the tavern where they sat in the a/c and drank until dark. A true waste of skills.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

I was watching the news last night and they were saying in some areas people are earning more by being on 2 or more government assistance programs then they would earn by going to work, I guess people figure cashing a cheque once a month is easier then putting in 40 hours a week.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

SectorSecurity said:


> I was watching the news last night and they were saying in some areas people are earning more by being on 2 or more government assistance programs then they would earn by going to work, I guess people figure cashing a cheque once a month is easier then putting in 40 hours a week.



That's almost every state, here in ny the average household income of the employed is 38,000 and the average non employed household income is 54,000


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

good guys are out there and the one thing they want is to get higher pay....if your not getting good guys your probably not paying enough or not giving something they want

owning a business is not easy and thats a good thing...it keeps the losers from succeeding

i have tons of trouble finding someone, but thats because im looking for part time only.....hard to find a winner and then expect him to work part time


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## littlefred811 (Dec 16, 2012)

Someone here has a line in their reply/tag that states: "Everyone wants to work, until they get a job."
Sadly it's true these days.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

i was slow a while ago and hooked up with a local kitchen place with a showroom. Their cabinet guy, who I was supposed to emulate, didn't check the ceiling or floor before setting cabinets. Had to relocate a can in the attic to bail out the electrician. Mirror man cut the Corian bath sill wrong and had to fix that. 

Totally bailed the K+Bath dealer out of trouble. My reward? He paid half my invoice several weeks later. 

I don't want to hear another word about how there isn't good help out there. There is a lack of contractors willing to pay what it's worth.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> i was slow a while ago and hooked up with a local kitchen place with a showroom. Their cabinet guy, who I was supposed to emulate, didn't check the ceiling or floor before setting cabinets. Had to relocate a can in the attic to bail out the electrician. Mirror man cut the Corian bath sill wrong and had to fix that.
> 
> Totally bailed the K+Bath dealer out of trouble. My reward? He paid half my invoice several weeks later.
> 
> I don't want to hear another word about how there isn't good help out there. There is a lack of contractors willing to pay what it's worth.


There's are plenty of idiots out there that really think they are God's gift to construction and worth top dollar, but they really don't know thier ass from a hole in the ground. I'm sure most of us here wouldn't mind paying a guy very high pay, if he was worthy. It's not that we don't want to pay, we first need to find "that guy" to pay.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I posted an ad three days ago for framing carpenters. I only asked for "some carpentry experience" Wage offered was $18/hour.

So far not one single reply.


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

The future workforce is screwed when all us old guys go work a H.D.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> I don't want to hear another word about how there isn't good help out there. There is a lack of contractors willing to pay what it's worth.


So one dirtbag contractor screwed you over. It happens. I have offered completely non skilled people jobs at over twice the rate they would make at McDonalds but the general reaction is that they don't want to sweat while working. The ones I have had on board and have now dismissed were too interested in doing FB updates, texting with friends, and whining about how hot it is do get a good days work out of them. When I made one leave his phone in the truck, he simply took a bathroom break every 15 minutes.

On some jobs they made more than I did while working "along side" them.

So YES there is not an abundance of good help out there.


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

funny how things have changed in five years

I could go on and on about this topic does anyone know how real this problem is, this isn't regional or just a couple people but a huge issue, in my location not only is it trades, we have a major shortage of housekeepers and cleaning people, think about it but my maine problem is figuring out where to go when I take my month off this winter because I have to do the work of three people but it pays


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> My grandad told me the same thing 20 years ago.
> 
> There will be the guys who figure it out, and those who don't.


I'm glad my days are numbered. Grandad probably said that too.

Uhh, actually did you just call me old!?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I'm glad my days are numbered. Grandad probably said that too.
> 
> Uhh, actually did you just call me old!?


Nah, just seasoned :laughing:

Seriously, I have a lot of respect for you and guys like you. 

Just saying, Ill figure it out. So will others.


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

Kowboy said:


> What we need here is the son-in-law test.
> 
> Let's say your daughter takes an even greater shine to your new hire than you and you find out you're about to be grandpa. Is this a good thing? Does your new about-to-be-son-in-law have a job with a future? Can he support his new wife and baby on the wages you're paying? Is your grandbaby's delivery going to be paid by your company's health insurance?
> 
> If the answer to any of the aforementioned questions is "no", then stop whining about not being able to get good help.


do you have any idea how much it costs to have 1 person working with a 60k a year salary or payroll. the health insurance is nothing. workers comp is more than 20k a year. cost of doing business in california has trippled since... you know who took office...


i will add, im a GC and work comp companies here dont like GC's at all.. highest class ratings no matter what


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

cost of doing business anywhere probably


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

bryanad86 said:


> do you have any idea how much it costs to have 1 person working with a 60k a year salary or payroll. the health insurance is nothing. workers comp is more than 20k a year. cost of doing business in california has trippled since... you know who took office...
> 
> 
> i will add, im a GC and work comp companies here dont like GC's at all.. highest class ratings no matter what


What city Bryan? I get everything you are saying.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> My guys aren't dating my daughter. Period. They will not be part of my personal life. That's just the way it is. My daughter can date tradesmen if she wants, but not one of my employees.


If your daughter ever hears you say that your worst fears will come to pass. Forbidden love and paternal defiance are eternal truths of adolescent women. Romeo and juliet etc etc


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm curious what all of the old timers were saying in the seventies and eighties. 

I had more patience to train young guys in the early eighties. Pay was $3.50 hour to pump screws. We had a riot back in those days. 

We all were employees. Taxes taken out. Real checks. Myself included. Even though I piece worked. 

Then it all changed in 1988. Texas building boom busted and we were over run by their workers. 

That was the beginning of the end. We all had to start being subs. Like them. Mostly illegals. 

Rant over.


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## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

I am the tradesman of tomorrow, and I'm coming for your daughters!


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> To be honest John, I'm really not sure about the tradesmen of tomorrow. I think they are going to have a tougher go at it. One of the biggest things, are how regulations are strangling our industry. It becomes harder and harder and more expensive to be compliant these days. It may get to a point, sometime in the future, that only the big guys on the block can afford to play. This isn't just Cali either, it's going to be the feds that push us out. I really believe this. Think EPA.


Mike, don't you think every generation says that about the next? Think of how things were built/done 20, 30,100 or more yrs ago compared to today.

I think it more the cost of living that is strangling us than regulations.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

bryanad86 said:


> do you have any idea how much it costs to have 1 person working with a 60k a year salary or payroll. the health insurance is nothing. workers comp is more than 20k a year. cost of doing business in california has trippled since... you know who took office...
> 
> i will add, im a GC and work comp companies here dont like GC's at all.. highest class ratings no matter what


Just curious, what if you did what some larger companies do, and incorporate in a different state but still work in Call?


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## sailfish27 (Jan 25, 2014)

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Seriously, who in their right mind would want to go to work for a construction co. unless you really loved the work or planned on being the boss someday? I know I wouldn't let my kids do it. The pay is terrible, it's hard dirty work without a lot of headroom to move up. 

How many you guys paying family healthcare? How about vacation pay? What about sick days and personal days? How many you contribute to your workers 401k? How many pay for continuing education? What about life insurance?

The reason guys are hard to find is because their aren't enough idiots out there so we have to relay on the ones without options. Some of you guys must work in commercial offices, haven't you noticed everyone sitting around shooting the ****, watching **** on their computers playing with their IPhone. Whether their is work or not the boss never sends anyone home. Fridays everyone cuts out early Mondays most come in late. 

At least when I started in Construction the hourly pay was higher than the average office job, not so anymore. The other thing I enjoyed when I started out was the freedom. You came to work dressed the way you wanted. You smoked if you pleased, cursed, pissed where ever you wanted. Now contractors have their employees dressing up in some bozo suits acting like corporate America without any of the benefits.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

A lot of good point in that post Selfish.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

I pay vacations/sick days/holidays---

Good grief---not every contractor is a shlep---

I've employed a lot of people over the years---If you treat your help with respect,train them well and run a tight ship--they will stay.

That being said---top workers are rare--learn to spot them and when you have one on the crew---train them and heap on the responsibilities---that is what a top guy wants--the satisfaction of pulling off a tough job with the knowledge that it was his show---

I talk to much---some of you will understand---a person needs to know that they are trusted and respected.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> Too many questions and variables, so little bandwidth to answer that.
> 
> I'll just ask you this. Have you ever had employees and what has been the result?


rselectric:

One of my criteria for participation on these types of boards is that my interlocutors must be logical. Unfortunately, your question isn't, and is a perfect example of the logical fallacy of relevance, ad hominem circumstantial, to be specific. My circumstances, whether or not I've ever had employees, is completely irrelevant to my premise that it is the relatively poor pay, benefits, conditions, and cyclical work that make it so difficult for contractors to find help. You must address my argument, not my circumstances.

My wife and I are childless by choice. My sister-in-law pulls ad hominem circumstantial when she says that people who don't have children shouldn't criticize the children of those that do. I do not have to have experienced parenthood to argue that your child is a brat. My not having kids is completely irrelevant to the fact that your little Jimmy is throwing a temper tantrum in the shopping cart because you wouldn't buy him a toy. Same thing here.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> rselectric:
> 
> One of my criteria for participation on these types of boards is that my interlocutors must be logical. Unfortunately, your question isn't, and is a perfect example of the logical fallacy of relevance, ad hominem circumstantial, to be specific. My circumstances, whether or not I've ever had employees, is completely irrelevant to my premise that it is the relatively poor pay, benefits, conditions, and cyclical work that make it so difficult for contractors to find help. You must address my argument, not my circumstances.
> 
> My wife and I are childless by choice. My sister-in-law pulls ad hominem circumstantial when she says that people who don't have children shouldn't criticize the children of those that do. I do not have to have experienced parenthood to argue that your child is a brat. My not having kids is completely irrelevant to the fact that your little Jimmy is throwing a temper tantrum in the shopping cart because you wouldn't buy him a toy. Same thing here.


Woa...lots of big words...lol! I get your point Kowboy, but if you haven't had employees then you can't offer your true experience in the matter. You might have good ideas, but if you haven't implemented them you cannot say if your ideas worked or not. 

It is the same with parenting. Until you are doing it, your opinion is just that and nothing more.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Big Shoe said:


> I'm curious what all of the old timers were saying in the seventies and eighties.
> 
> I had more patience to train young guys in the early eighties. Pay was $3.50 hour to pump screws. We had a riot back in those days.
> 
> ...


I got started in the mid 90's. Same thing. Pay wasn't great, but it didn't cost so much to just survive. 

Jobsites were a lot more fun. Work and play combined into a pretty good lifestyle.

Now it costs so much just to squeeze by that every moment needs to be productive. Guys are making a fair wage, but just getting by. The cost of living ans regulations have squeezed all the fun out of it.

I remember many times having nail gun battles and lots of general horseplay and joking around. Now I feel sorry for the new guys getting into the trades. Maybe the lack of fun is a big part of it.

I know even when working by myself it isn't as much fun as it used to be. I charge a good rate, but still struggle to keep enough cash flow coming in. It is all about cashflow and get in and get out. No time to stop and enjoy what I have chosen to do for a living anymore.

I can totally understand why young guys and gals don't want to go into the trades. I don't know what the solution is, but I keep looking for it.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> rselectric:
> 
> One of my criteria for participation on these types of boards is that my interlocutors must be logical. Unfortunately, your question isn't, and is a perfect example of the logical fallacy of relevance, ad hominem circumstantial, to be specific. My circumstances, whether or not I've ever had employees, is completely irrelevant to my premise that it is the relatively poor pay, benefits, conditions, and cyclical work that make it so difficult for contractors to find help. You must address my argument, not my circumstances.
> 
> My wife and I are childless by choice. My sister-in-law pulls ad hominem circumstantial when she says that people who don't have children shouldn't criticize the children of those that do. I do not have to have experienced parenthood to argue that your child is a brat. My not having kids is completely irrelevant to the fact that your little Jimmy is throwing a temper tantrum in the shopping cart because you wouldn't buy him a toy. Same thing here.


What you think will happen and what actually does are two different things and until you experience it, you don't know what you think you know.

In parenting I would say 90% to 95% of how a child turns out would be contributed to the parents. You can say all you want but there is that chance that one of your children are naturally a brat and turn out to be a bad egg. Try as you may, it will be up to them to change. You think you know.....but sorry, you don't.

When you have all these great ideas set aside for being this awesome boss, then you really get into it, you may succeed. But there is always that chance that it comes down to you staying in business or being an awesome boss.


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## sailfish27 (Jan 25, 2014)

mikeswoods said:


> I pay vacations/sick days/holidays---
> 
> Good grief---not every contractor is a shlep---
> 
> ...


Don't misunderstand me, I am not calling anyone on here cheap or a schlep, I'm just pointing out that our industry as a whole is not the most lucrative career choice for workers. As a rule of thumb bigger companies can afford better compensation packages. Most of us are small with lots of competition.

It wasn't always the case, but around here, the best employer's are the state of Mass and the US government. Big with no competition. I have friends who work for both. Their benefits alone are worth more than what most of us pay in total compensation.


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

griz said:


> Good help is difficult to find and retain because individuals can stay at home, do nothing, watch TV and make more money, by collecting welfare, unemployment and growing dope.....


and get a cell phone, i had a guy working for me that got all the benne's from uncle sam had 2 cell phones, and food from his church, these people know how to work the system


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

sailfish27 said:


> Don't misunderstand me, I am not calling anyone on here cheap or a schlep, I'm just pointing out that our industry as a whole is not the most lucrative career choice for workers. As a rule of thumb bigger companies can afford better compensation packages. Most of us are small with lots of competition.
> 
> It wasn't always the case, but around here, the best employer's are the state of Mass and the US government. Big with no competition. I have friends who work for both. Their benefits alone are worth more than what most of us pay in total compensation.


I choose not to get in the on going discussion , it is what it is, pays what it pays. 

I do however find the government wages subject interesting lately. It is ridiculous what most federal employees are being paid, and many of the northeastern states state employees. It may not be perfect, but Texas is in good shape financially, we have a rainy day fund and reserves. Im sure that and the fact that most state employees are paid 70-75% of the wages they would get for the same job in the private sector strongly correlate. Thats how it is supposed to be. Days off, benefits, pension when your 50, ect.... makes up for low wages. 

Seems like its higher wages and a ridiculous benefits package most everywhere now, especially federal.


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

Californiadecks said:


> What city Bryan? I get everything you are saying.


los angeles, i work from newport area all the way up to malibu and the palisades


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

how often do you guys have problems with clients trying to get you to pay for all the materials? or trying to find a way not to pay something... my contract lists the items ill purchase as part of the project price, the estimates and contract usually for install only for most things, such as cabinets, sinks, all that stuff i leave up to the client and help em choose sizes. im coming to a close on this project and ive asked for a progress payment which was denied, he wants a finished job before i get paid. ok fine. kind of a red flag there, now hes asked for a lien release before i get paid.. major red flag. also, ive had to buy all the odds and ends (light fixtures, faucets, vanities, garbage disposals) he somehow thinks that its in the contract that im covering the cost of all that stuff. my last client pulled a change order scam on me, fortunately i have a 16 page contract she signed and saved all her emails requesting more work to be done. seems like my young age makes people think they can take advantage of me :\ any thoughts?


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

overanalyze said:


> Woa...lots of big words...lol! I get your point Kowboy, but if you haven't had employees then you can't offer your true experience in the matter. You might have good ideas, but if you haven't implemented them you cannot say if your ideas worked or not.
> 
> It is the same with parenting. Until you are doing it, your opinion is just that and nothing more.


overanalyze:

You say you get my point, but then you proceed to show you didn't. 

I've reviewed my posts in this thread, and I can't find any where I've argued that I've had success solving this problem as an employer. Your argument would be valid if I had. I've only argued that I've identified what the real problem is.

According to your and CrpntrFrk's "reasoning" Congresspersons shouldn't be able to vote to send the country to war unless they were veterans that experienced combat.


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## Ragebhardt (Apr 25, 2010)

I think most boss/owners take business and money way way way to seriously. 
They forget about LIFE.
Most think that is normal. 
Relax and start enjoying life!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Metro M & L said:


> If your daughter ever hears you say that your worst fears will come to pass. Forbidden love and paternal defiance are eternal truths of adolescent women. Romeo and juliet etc etc


My daughter is 21 and has never even met a worker of mine. except for my lead, when he and his wife stayed at my home the night before we all went on an 11 day Alaska cruise.

We are good friends with he and his wife.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> According to your and CrpntrFrk's "reasoning" Congresspersons shouldn't be able to vote to send the country to war unless they were veterans that experienced combat.


I would agree with that actually. I usually don't comment on things I have not experienced first hand. I may have ideas, but they may not be relevant due to my inexperience.

Put it into perspective. 2 guys same age wanting to get hired on with your company. One just graduated from trade school after 4 years and the other one has 4 years hands on experience on a job. Both are going to be hard workers, both with excellent work ethics, both willing to work the way you work. Which one would you hire? I will tell you I would hire the guy with hands on experience. He would know the ins and outs. No matter how much you read, you cannot have the same knowledge as hands on.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

The same thing can be said about government officials. Let's say one was a fighter pilot in a war, and one was a community organizer in Chicago. Both places can be considered war zones, who would you want to be the commander in chief of our armed forces?


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

CrpntrFrk said:


> I would agree with that actually. I usually don't comment on things I have not experienced first hand. I may have ideas, but they may not be relevant due to my inexperience.
> 
> Put it into perspective. 2 guys same age wanting to get hired on with your company. One just graduated from trade school after 4 years and the other one has 4 years hands on experience on a job. Both are going to be hard workers, both with excellent work ethics, both willing to work the way you work. Which one would you hire? I will tell you I would hire the guy with hands on experience. He would know the ins and outs. No matter how much you read, you cannot have the same knowledge as hands on.


CrpntrFrk:

The difference is that the two potential hires are both arguing for the same job. In their case, their circumstances (experience) are relevant to their arguments. 

My experience or lack thereof in hiring people is not relevant to my argument that the difficulty contractors have in finding help are due to the relatively poor pay, benefits, etc. associated with construction work.


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## sailfish27 (Jan 25, 2014)

Jaws said:


> I choose not to get in the on going discussion , it is what it is, pays what it pays.
> 
> I do however find the government wages subject interesting lately. It is ridiculous what most federal employees are being paid, and many of the northeastern states state employees. It may not be perfect, but Texas is in good shape financially, we have a rainy day fund and reserves. Im sure that and the fact that most state employees are paid 70-75% of the wages they would get for the same job in the private sector strongly correlate. Thats how it is supposed to be. Days off, benefits, pension when your 50, ect.... makes up for low wages.
> 
> Seems like its higher wages and a ridiculous benefits package most everywhere now, especially federal.


Amen! Used to be that way here. Government work equaled great benefits but low wages. If you didn't mind working hard you went into construction much better pay. 

The deal now is steal from the small business guy through taxation and regulation and give lavish pay and benefits to your own workers so that they will continue to vote you in.

Nice to know there is some sanity in other parts of the country. With a little luck, if your guy decides to run in 16, maybe he could bring some of that common sense up north.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Kind of off the subject here but I had a thought about employees wanting to date the boss' daughter. In the interview, you would really want to omit the question, "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?":laughing:


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

tedanderson said:


> *Kind of off the subject here* but I had a thought about employees wanting to date the boss' daughter. In the interview, you would really want to omit the question, "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?":laughing:


Well, yes it is OT...
Think you got a fixation on dating customers & boss's daughters Teddy boy.

Mebbe youz is just a gigalo waiting to be hatched...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFV1biHrOBU


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

VinylHanger said:


> I got started in the mid 90's. Same thing. Pay wasn't great, but it didn't cost so much to just survive.
> 
> Jobsites were a lot more fun. Work and play combined into a pretty good lifestyle.
> 
> ...


NICE!!!!! same here, I could write a book on the completely messed up things I got away with and did back in the day I bet a majority of the members of this board wouldn't believe the stuff we did nail gun fights were pretty amateur and mild, hoisting someones dog up in a tower crane in a man cage and leaving them there? Filling the cab of the crane with smoke......... building jumps and ramps off roofs and skiing it and getting paid, getting into all out cop calling fights because some contractor couldn't write a check, been on more jobs with the cops and code enforcement officers showing up than I can't imagine, worked with one crew who packed guns and shot for fun, safety was only a meeting held a couple times a day, icy roofs who cares

yeah things are different today, I wouldn't hire myself, I mean I would but once I caught on to the recklessness I'd think twice, things are different because I grew up, taken on alot of responsibility, put my butt on the line, make promises to people and take their money in return for a good product. the amount of money that passes through my hands every month is down right scary and I have a responsibility to make sure the bills are paid and I don't end up broke, when i wake up everyday I demand the best from myself and I work hard to make sure it happens so in return I ask all the subs and employees to do the same

finding good help??? honestly people just don't want to work hard if they don't have too, back in the day it was a bunch of guys who wanted to play hard and work hard, today these kids (in my area) sit around smoke weed all day ski a couple days a week and work as little as they can and talk about how bad azz they are. We used to crush it in the morning on the ski hill go to work by 11 and clean up in the dark and do it all over again the next day


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

fast fred:

It pains me to realize how much we were alike in our younger days.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Keep running them through


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

fast fred said:


> NICE!!!!! same here, I could write a book on the completely messed up things I got away with and did back in the day I bet a majority of the members of this board wouldn't believe the stuff we did nail gun fights were pretty amateur and mild, hoisting someones dog up in a tower crane in a man cage and leaving them there? Filling the cab of the crane with smoke......... building jumps and ramps off roofs and skiing it and getting paid, getting into all out cop calling fights because some contractor couldn't write a check, been on more jobs with the cops and code enforcement officers showing up than I can't imagine, worked with one crew who packed guns and shot for fun, safety was only a meeting held a couple times a day, icy roofs who cares
> 
> yeah things are different today, I wouldn't hire myself, I mean I would but once I caught on to the recklessness I'd think twice, things are different because I grew up, taken on alot of responsibility, put my butt on the line, make promises to people and take their money in return for a good product. the amount of money that passes through my hands every month is down right scary and I have a responsibility to make sure the bills are paid and I don't end up broke, when i wake up everyday I demand the best from myself and I work hard to make sure it happens so in return I ask all the subs and employees to do the same
> 
> finding good help??? honestly* people just don't want to work hard if they don't have too, back in the day it was a bunch of guys who wanted to play hard and work hard, today these kids (in my area) sit around smoke weed all day ski a couple days a week and work as little as they can and talk about how bad azz they are. We used to crush it in the morning on the ski hill go to work by 11 and clean up in the dark and do it all over again the next day*


I find that it's harder to get the older folks to do the physical work, than the new school. Boys will be boys, for better or worse. You get down there, show em how, and they will take. Granted, some are incorrigible, but many just need some type of positive re-enforcement.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> overanalyze:
> 
> You say you get my point, but then you proceed to show you didn't.
> 
> ...


That's true, I didn't read where you stated definitively that your answer was based on experience. So I apologize that I took it wrong. I do believe our government should be made up of military personnel, but that's for another discussion.

I agree poor pay is some to blame, but people get paid what they are worth and if you want more money you show you are worth more. I fear for the skilled trades getting even worse in the future, but I can't say that I think throwing higher wages at someone will make them any better. I have not tried that first hand so I cannot say for sure if my opinion is valid.


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## Big Rig (Feb 23, 2009)

The misconception that some employees typically have is that the owner who hired them, is skating through his day, having coffee with the boys, playing golf, generally dinking around all day long, sitting back while everyone else does the work. A majority of us,the bosses, are working 24 hours a day: marketing, meeting with potential clients, researching new and improved work methods, new product lines, etc. At eight hours, the typical employee goes home and leaves the job behind, i.e., as soon as he hits the truck, he's thinking about the kids' after school sports programs, the ice cold beer in the fridge and what honey is making for dinner. 
It doesn't work that way for us. We have responsibilities to our own family as well as yours. If we don't do the "gravy work" of convincing the POTENTIAL client that "yes, that IS how much it will be and I guarantee you will be happy with the end result" psychological game, then NOONE eats.
Granted, this thread pertains to the lack of qualified, willing workers but I feel it necessary to speak for those of us who only get 3-4 hours of quality sleep a night, worrying about our business, our family, our employee's family, the cost of living, taxes, work comp, health insurance, our futures. 
If the employee's time card and the owner's time cards were side by side, I am willing to bet you'd quit bitching and get back to work, so we can get the job done sooner and possibly get the ever elusive profit for the company and a potential bonus for yourself.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Big Rig said:


> The misconception that some employees typically have is that the owner who hired them, is skating through his day, having coffee with the boys, playing golf, generally dinking around all day long, sitting back while everyone else does the work. A majority of us,the bosses, are working 24 hours a day: marketing, meeting with potential clients, researching new and improved work methods, new product lines, etc. At eight hours, the typical employee goes home and leaves the job behind, i.e., as soon as he hits the truck, he's thinking about the kids' after school sports programs, the ice cold beer in the fridge and what honey is making for dinner. It doesn't work that way for us. We have responsibilities to our own family as well as yours. If we don't do the "gravy work" of convincing the POTENTIAL client that "yes, that IS how much it will be and I guarantee you will be happy with the end result" psychological game, then NOONE eats. Granted, this thread pertains to the lack of qualified, willing workers but I feel it necessary to speak for those of us who only get 3-4 hours of quality sleep a night, worrying about our business, our family, our employee's family, the cost of living, taxes, work comp, health insurance, our futures. If the employee's time card and the owner's time cards were side by side, I am willing to bet you'd quit bitching and get back to work, so we can get the job done sooner and possibly get the ever elusive profit for the company and a potential bonus for yourself.



Are you currently looking for employees?


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

somewhere in the last 15-20 years the entire residential construction/remodeling industry became completely whored up around here.....3 so called contractors behind every tree...and what passes for a carpenter...or tries to is.....I don't know......It's a joke


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

If you think help is a joke now, how are we going to survive when they are going to pay fast food workers $15/hr? Construction laborers will want no less then $20 to start. Only we will have to raise our prices and we have been stagnant with the infilltration of illegals. 

Could Obama be any more anti business or more pro union?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Tom M said:


> If you think help is a joke now, how are we going to survive when they are going to pay fast food workers $15/hr? Construction laborers will want no less then $20 to start. Only we will have to raise our prices and we have been stagnant with the infilltration of illegals.
> 
> Could Obama be any more anti business or more pro union?


Minimum is 10 an hour here. The day after it went up, a 7 dollar burger king burger meal went to 12 bucks. 

I was always a little leary about eating that chit anyway. They just guaranteed I won't eat at those greasy spoons. It's unfortunate because most are small business owners who own the franchise.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> Minimum is 10 an hour here. The day after it went up, a 7 dollar burger king burger meal went to 12 bucks.
> 
> I was always a little leary about eating that chit anyway. They just guaranteed I won't eat at those greasy spoons. It's unfortunate because most are small business owners who own the franchise.


Not even on Whopper Wednesday?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> They just guaranteed I won't eat at those greasy spoons.


You daggon left-coasters and your language modifications. Around here, a greasy spoon is a small, often out of the way diner with real grub--about as far as you can get from those shiny plastic franchises. And the prices are about the same.

I'll take one of those any day of the week. :thumbsup:


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> Minimum is 10 an hour here. The day after it went up, a 7 dollar burger king burger meal went to 12 bucks.
> 
> I was always a little leary about eating that chit anyway. They just guaranteed I won't eat at those greasy spoons. It's unfortunate because most are small business owners who own the franchise.


I suspect that was a case of the owners piling on. I get how an increase in minimum wage can increase the cost of goods. But, mathematically, how does a 33% increase in wages lead to a 80% increase in cost of product? Somewhere, if we were to really delve into the accounting, we would find something amiss.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

flashheatingand said:


> I suspect that was a case of the owners piling on. I get how an increase in minimum wage can increase the cost of goods. But, mathematically, how does a 33% increase in wages lead to a 80% increase in cost of product? Somewhere, if we were to really delve into the accounting, we would find something amiss.


Do you think health care (ObamaCare) is something they need to supply that they didn't need to before? Not to mention when a wage goes up, so do all the employee liabilities.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> You daggon left-coasters and your language modifications. Around here, a greasy spoon is a small, often out of the way diner with real grub--about as far as you can get from those shiny plastic franchises. And the prices are about the same.
> 
> I'll take one of those any day of the week. :thumbsup:


Sorry Tin, I heard my dad use that term. Probably a gross misuse of the words and again, I strongly apologize. By the way we are on the right side of the coast


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Yankees and left coasters.....


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Greasy spoon breakfasts are my favorite.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

This has become a public relations nightmare for me!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

It was a gaffe


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Californiadecks said:


> This has become a public relations nightmare for me!


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Californiadecks said:


> It was a gaffe


Let's get this right...you misspoke....


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## straightedgellc (Jul 12, 2014)

This is a hot topic in every industry of business. Every field has a hard time finding quality field. I am determined to become the type of person who can strategically find and groom good people. It is a skill.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

Now you guys have my mouth watering for ham and eggs over easy,hash browns and toast.

Formica topped tables and a waitress that calls everybody "Honey"--


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

mikeswoods said:


> Now you guys have my mouth watering for ham and eggs over easy,hash browns and toast.
> 
> Formica topped tables and a waitress that calls everybody "Honey"--


Still have a place like that here. Open since 1929. I eat there regular.

My favorite place was a tiny place that was open forever. Me and my brother ate breakfast there every Saturday. 

My ex boss tore it down and built a Which Wich there. I still give him chit .


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

mikeswoods said:


> Formica topped tables and a waitress that calls everybody "Honey"--


Her name was Ruthie. She'd see me pull into the parking lot, tell the cook to get my breakfast going, and have a cup of coffee on the counter for me before I even sat down. 

At lunchtime things would get busy, so she'd just go from table to table collecting orders verbally, then go over by the grill, pull out her pad and start writing them up--sometimes as many as 15-20 at once. Never saw her make a mistake.

There's a huge shopping center there now. :sad:


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

mikeswoods said:


> Now you guys have my mouth watering for ham and eggs over easy,hash browns and toast.
> 
> Formica topped tables and a waitress that calls everybody "Honey"--


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb1ZbFCjWHQ


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I worked as a busboy for one of those places for all 4 years of high school. Those old waitresses did call me honey. The place had a waiting line out the door on Sunday mornings. It was called "Aunt Emma's". How can you go wrong with a place that had a name like that? It had been there for 50 years, before they finally tore it down.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

I'm looking for help in a bad way. I have good men now, just need more. Working 6-10's


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I just talked to my electrician. They just had two guys quit and one more that probably will. They said they were tired of working 50-60 hours a week. WTF! That isn't even a long week when spread over 6 days.

Young guys don't want to work at all these days. Back in my employee days, I would have killed to work 60 hours and get over time.


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