# Window flashing & IBC meaning



## ChrisPDX (Dec 30, 2015)

*Window flashing &amp; IBC meaning*

Hey guys I'm new here so be gentle. 
I am having my perosnal house built in WA State and recently found out the builder doesn't z metal flash above windows and doors. This to me is crazy. They rely on the window installation of using Tyvek flash tape as the "flashing" means. I am a construction Manager and I've always metal flashed above windows and thought it was IBC and IRC Code? They are basically relying on sticky flashing and tyvek tape to keep the water out but aren't protecting the wood. The system they use is flexible pan with flash tape sides and top then the siders fold the tyvek paper over and tyvek tape that in shingle fashion. I feel what they are doing is great for "window installation" but doesn't protect the wood behind the WRB. 
Does adhesive flashing count as "flashing" under IBC or IRC for them to be compliant?

I should mentioned that they are using Hardie Board and don't trim the windows on the sides and back and run the Hardie within a 1/4" of the top of the window when they install siding per Hardie specs.


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

Sounds like a production tract home, with vinyl windows. Is that correct?


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## ChrisPDX (Dec 30, 2015)

Yes production builder with vinyl flange windows.


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

It has been said that vinyl windows don't require z-flashing at the head. 
The window itself won't rot from water, and the proper integration of the flashing tape to the window flanges and the wrb should prevent any
water from reaching the wall sheathing. 
In theory.

Most municipalities that I work in defer to manufacturer's installation instructions over the code book, so I really don't know what the code books say about it. You could grab an instruction sheet from a window, or look it up online. I doubt you'll find anything to compel the builder to change his ways though. If that's what you're trying to accomplish.


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## aikenback (Jun 4, 2008)

In Calgary, Alberta there are strict compliance rules. you must have flashing over any opening like a window and the same flashing between different cladding or finishes if they do not overlap by 1". the drip flashing over windows etc must be dammed up at each end by bending the metal up one inch. it must also overhang the window 1/2" on either side. there are a lot of hacks out there. Watch some u tube


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

The inspectors I've worked with in Tacoma look for z flashing over vinyl windows.


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

I had to go to my city's amendments to IRC section, and found this"

(58)
Section R703.8.1Fenestration Installation
is hereby 
added to read as follows:
-
26 
-
“
R703.8.1 
Fenestration
installation. 
For all new construction, all 
fenestration
installations shall be in accordance with American Architectural Manufacturers 
Association (AAMA) Standards/ Specifications for Windows, Doors and 
Skylights and 
shall be supervised or inspected by an individual certified as an Installation Master or by 
one having attended a training by the manufacturer of the specific window product being 
installed. Fenestration perimeter flashing shall be installed 
per Installation Masters 
Chapter 16 Method A or A1, including either rigid or flexible sill pan flashing.

I do remember a couple or three years ago when they put that in force that all licensed contractors were required to take a watered down AAMA training through the city. None of them were too happy about it.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

well what are we talking about here?,flashing the unit itself or the trim above it?


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## ChrisPDX (Dec 30, 2015)

Flashing the window itself with metal


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

while i think it's nice to have a drip cap that projects out past the face of the unit i think i would look to see what the manufacturer says,imo window flanges that are integral or moulded into the unit with sealed or welded corners need no extra metal in most instances

between the trim and the siding yes


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

ChrisPDX said:


> Flashing the window itself with metal


What is the window manufacturer and series?


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## ChrisPDX (Dec 30, 2015)

I found this R703.8- Flashing _Approved _corrosion-resistant flashing shall be applied shingle-fashion in a manner to prevent entry of water into the wall cavity or penetration of water to the building structural framing components. Self-adhered membranes used as flashing shall comply with AAMA 711. The flashing shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish. _Approved _corrosion-resistant flashings shall be installed at all of the following locations: 

1. Exterior window and door openings. Flashing at exterior window and door openings shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish or to the water-resistive barrier for subsequent drainage. Flashing at exterior window and door openings shall be installed in accordance with one or more of the following:1.1. The fenestration manufacturer’s installation and flashing instructions, or for applications not addressed in the fenestration manufacturer’s instructions, in accordance with the flashing manufacturer’s instructions. Where flashing instructions or details are not provided, pan flashing shall be installed at the sill of exterior window and door openings. Pan flashing shall be sealed or sloped in such a manner as to direct water to the surface of the exterior wall finish or to the water-resistive barrier for subsequent drainage. Openings using pan flashing shall also incorporate flashing or protection at the head and sides.1.2. In accordance with the flashing design or method of a registered design professional.1.3. In accordance with other approved methods.
*1405.4 Flashing. *
Flashing shall be installed in such a manner so as to prevent moisture from entering the wall or to redirect it to the exterior. Flashing shall be installed at the perimeters of exterior door and window assemblies, penetrations and terminations of _exterior wall_ assemblies, _exterior wall_ intersections with roofs, chimneys, porches, decks, balconies and similar projections and at built-in gutters and similar locations where moisture could enter the wall. Flashing with projecting flanges shall be installed on both sides and the ends of copings, under sills and continuously above projecting _trim_.


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## ChrisPDX (Dec 30, 2015)

Based on reading that I interpret that as you should metal flash the heads of Windows and doors. I am not arguing the window install, I am arguing without the metal flashing we are depending on tape and adhesive flashing tape to keep water from sitting on top of the window. Also nothing protects the shear if water gets behind the paper (WRB)correct?


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

ChrisPDX said:


> Based on reading that I interpret that as you should metal flash the heads of Windows and doors. I am not arguing the window install, I am arguing without the metal flashing we are depending on tape and adhesive flashing tape to keep water from sitting on top of the window. Also nothing protects the shear if water gets behind the paper (WRB)correct?


It depends. What is the metal flashing doing that a welded vinyl window flange isn't already doing?

Window manufacturer and series again?


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> It depends. What is the metal flashing doing that a welded vinyl window flange isn't already doing?
> 
> Window manufacturer and series again?


extending higher under the WRB
diverting the water out over the trim or window instead of to the sides


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Golden view said:


> extending higher under the WRB
> diverting the water out over the trim or window instead of to the sides


Higher than a 3 1/2" or 4" flashing tape? How much taller is the Z flashing than the nailing flange itself?


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

ChrisPDX said:


> Based on reading that I interpret that as you should metal flash the heads of Windows and doors. I am not arguing the window install, I am arguing without the metal flashing we are depending on tape and adhesive flashing tape to keep water from sitting on top of the window. Also nothing protects the shear if water gets behind the paper (WRB)correct?


Also, what do you think the metal flashing is going to do if water gets behind the paper? the water will go right behind the metal. The peel and stick flashing tape adhered directly to the sheathing will direct that water around and out. 

No where in what you have posted does it specify metal flashing.


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## ChrisPDX (Dec 30, 2015)

What I use when I build my houses is a 1-1/4" z metal with a 4" high back Sorry don't know the Window series I haven't investigated that yet. 
Basically the Windows should be installed with Tyvek straight flash tape which they are and the Tyvek WRB head of window should be cut already for the window install. Before the Tyvek WRB head is folded back down and tape with Tyvek regular tape I believe you should incorporate z metal under the WRB and overtop of the window flange and 3" Tyvek flash tape. This protects the Shear. Your primary defense should be your flashing protecting the shear, the WRB is the redundant layer of protection. This also protects the window itself from standing water on top and diverting it away so it doesn't intrude. In my eyes I can't see how we are depending on sticky flashing and Tyvek tape from stopping water. The flash tape doesn't divert water, water would just sit on top waiting overtime for the tape to fail.


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## ChrisPDX (Dec 30, 2015)

Eric- the peel and stick flashing says it should also be installed dry situations, clean surface, free from dust and dry surfaces. That makes me nervous because where I live it rains 300 days out of the year. Perhaps it doesn't adhere correctly to the shear, then what?


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

ChrisPDX said:


> What I use when I build my houses is a 1-1/4" z metal with a 4" high back Sorry don't know the Window series I haven't investigated that yet.
> Basically the Windows should be installed with Tyvek straight flash tape which they are and the Tyvek WRB head of window should be cut already for the window install. Before the Tyvek WRB head is folded back down and tape with Tyvek regular tape I believe you should incorporate z metal under the WRB and overtop of the window flange and 3" Tyvek flash tape. This protects the Shear. Your primary defense should be your flashing protecting the shear, the WRB is the redundant layer of protection. This also protects the window itself from standing water on top and diverting it away so it doesn't intrude. In my eyes I can't see how we are depending on sticky flashing and Tyvek tape from stopping water. The flash tape doesn't divert water, water would just sit on top waiting overtime for the tape to fail.


I'm pretty up to date on window flashing methods.

What is going to fail? The top of a vinyl window and the flange are a solid piece of plastic. How much water are you anticipating to be standing on top of a window that it would be able to overtake the flange and wear away at flashing tape?

You don't know what kind of windows are being used in your own home prior to installation?


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

ChrisPDX said:


> Eric- the peel and stick flashing says it should also be installed dry situations, clean surface, free from dust and dry surfaces. That makes me nervous because where I live it rains 300 days out of the year. Perhaps it doesn't adhere correctly to the shear, then what?


Why were these issues not addressed when you signed the contract? Why wasn't this discussed prior to install?


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## ChrisPDX (Dec 30, 2015)

I am not building it. My company I work for isn't licensed where I have land. I am having another company build it. I technically have no involvement.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

ChrisPDX said:


> I am not building it. My company I work for isn't licensed where I have land. I am having another company build it. I technically have no involvement.


How do you have no involvement if it's your own home? It's your money paying for it, right? You signed a contract to have it built or is it a spec that you are purchasing?


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## ChrisPDX (Dec 30, 2015)

House isn't built yet homeboy. I saw is on another house they built. Still very much early on, Windows aren't in. My question was is when the IDC or IRC defines "flashing" are they taking about z metal or peel and stick. I can't see them saying peel and stick is acceptable in window and doors only. Peel and stick has t been around that long.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

ChrisPDX said:


> House isn't built yet homeboy. I saw is on another house they built. Still very much early on, Windows aren't in. My question was is when the IDC or IRC defines "flashing" are they taking about z metal or peel and stick. I can't see them saying peel and stick is acceptable in window and doors only. Peel and stick has t been around that long.


Peel and stick has been around for quite a while. Vinyl windows with fully integrated nail fins don't require z flashing. None of the brands I have ever installed call it out in the installation instructions. The wood, fiberglass or clad windows usually call for it.

If it's something you feel is necessary, discuss it with your builder.


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

aikenback said:


> In Calgary, Alberta there are strict compliance rules. you must have flashing over any opening like a window and the same flashing between different cladding or finishes if they do not overlap by 1". the drip flashing over windows etc must be dammed up at each end by bending the metal up one inch. it must also overhang the window 1/2" on either side. there are a lot of hacks out there. Watch some u tube


I'm in Ontario and we run the same code on this one, but I'm wondering if they are in more of a warm climate zone where you don't have to worry about ice damming or freeze-thaw cycles. 

A drip edge is always beneficial though in my opinion, why not keep water off the walls as much as possible?


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## elementbldrs (Sep 26, 2010)




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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

elementbldrs said:


> View attachment 259561


I've been flashing Windows like that for years. But most of homes here are stucco and our stucco guys tie into our flashing.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

if you use a metal drip it should most times go under the wrb not the flashing tape


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

I would not flash a vinyl window if it has a full integral flange. If it gets any trim around it I would flash that. 

Now the entry doors get flashed for sure.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

aikenback said:


> In Calgary, Alberta there are strict compliance rules. you must have flashing over any opening like a window and the same flashing between different cladding or finishes if they do not overlap by 1". the drip flashing over windows etc must be dammed up at each end by bending the metal up one inch. it must also overhang the window 1/2" on either side. there are a lot of hacks out there. Watch some u tube


can you post a pic of the 1'' end dams?


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

You really don't know what window they're gonna use?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

imo a lot of the reason we now actually have pretty detailed flashing instructions these days are a response to some pretty poorly built windows with little to no wrb integration back in the 70-90 when fin windows became common

does window location or exposure count for nothing? imo some units need a belt and suspenders approach others not so much,without detailed print i use my experience to tell me..


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

This is from a shed I built in the backyard, this is considered good practice and passes code. I don't hang over the 1/2" as mentioned because the dam interferes with the J mould, but your still achieving a good level of control over the path of flow.


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

Tom Struble said:


> can you post a pic of the 1'' end dams?


Sorry I forgot to tie into your post, I posted a pic of the dam for ya though.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

Golden view said:


> extending higher under the WRB
> diverting the water out over the trim or window instead of to the sides


I just installed some Andersen 100 windows and the Z flashing they provide for some of the windows the top leg was no taller then the flange its self.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

thanks:thumbsup:

wow..that seems pretty excessive,just my opinion


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Randy Bush said:


> I just installed some Andersen 100 windows and the Z flashing they provide for some of the windows the top leg was no taller then the flange its self.


On their glider doors, the head flashing is integrated into the fin.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Tom Struble said:


> thanks:thumbsup:
> 
> wow..that seems pretty excessive,just my opinion


I'm with you, Tom. We aren't building an aquarium here, were flashing Windows. Windows on a vertical plane where gravity is working in our favor.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> Higher than a 3 1/2" or 4" flashing tape? How much taller is the Z flashing than the nailing flange itself?


Probably not, but windows are still a source of moisture so it's all about redundancy. Without a doubt a lot of water gets in the uncaulked gap above a window. I don't really trust the 50 year longevity of peel and stick exposed to water, not to mention a little sun through the 1/4" gap.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Golden view said:


> Probably not, but windows are still a source of moisture so it's all about redundancy. Without a doubt a lot of water gets in the uncaulked gap above a window. I don't really trust the 50 year longevity of peel and stick exposed to water, not to mention a little sun through the 1/4" gap.


On a vinyl window you aren't really relying on the peel and stick to flag the top, the flange and top of the window itself are one piece. The peel and stick extends that flange protection up the wall and under the wrb. 


On ZIP, which is pretty much all I use, the tape does everything. I have plenty of confidence in the system, the company and their engineers.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> On a vinyl window you aren't really relying on the peel and stick to flag the top, the flange and top of the window itself are one piece. The peel and stick extends that flange protection up the wall and under the wrb.
> 
> 
> On ZIP, which is pretty much all I use, the tape does everything. I have plenty of confidence in the system, the company and their engineers.


I still don't like how it channels all the water down the caulk joint at the sides of the window versus a z channel with caulked end dams.

As perfect as the zip system is at protecting framing, it still means more water behind the siding.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

..but also water comes out that uncaulked gap,which is why you would not caulk it,the sunlight issue i don't really think there is one there as it's at the bottom of the flange rather than at the top edge where a break down of the tape would be an issue

but a lot of this is how things are accepted regionally and the personal opinion of the experienced guys here

while we can say ''imo all windows need metal''[and that's great] it's not necessarily true..

imo..


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

carp.addict said:


> This is from a shed I built in the backyard, this is considered good practice and passes code. I don't hang over the 1/2" as mentioned because the dam interferes with the J mould, but your still achieving a good level of control over the path of flow.


Just looked up the Alberta flashing code. Looks to me, that J doesn't have to be cut, and that heavy detail is only required when you do what we down here call a pine wrap.

Or am I missing something?

http://www.scaa.ca/user_files/Reveiw of Flashing Details.pdf
https://www.nanaimo.ca/assets/Depar...ations~and~Forms/WindowInstallationDetail.pdf


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Taking this a step further (and knowing that "25 mm" is Canadian for "one inch"), I'm thinking that if I did a standard J wrap around a vinyl window with integral nail flange, no metal flashing detail would be required.

IOW, one ends up with something similar to what we do here in the states...


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

EricBrancard said:


> I'm with you, Tom. We aren't building an aquarium here, were flashing Windows. Windows on a vertical plane where gravity is working in our favor.


Gravity doesn't stand a chance against capillary action, not to mention wind driven rain. Taking a couple extra steps can make a world of difference in protecting your sheathing, structure, and insulation. I think it's worth it. Water rarely does what it's told to do.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Tom Struble said:


> ..but also water comes out that uncaulked gap,which is why you would not caulk it,the sunlight issue i don't really think there is one there as it's at the bottom of the flange rather than at the top edge where a break down of the tape would be an issue
> 
> but a lot of this is how things are accepted regionally and the personal opinion of the experienced guys here
> 
> ...


Right, you only caulk the ends as a little dam, around here anyway.


I'm a proponent of flashing and overkill because I see plenty of rotted sheathing at the lower corners of windows that look like they were installed good enough.

But again, I'm in a place that rains 367 days a year. In Alaska all the precipitation was snow so it hardly mattered.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

it's all good,i appreciate the pics and definitely learned a new way,while here in my location i would have a hard time selling that on every window i can imagine it being useful in other situations:thumbsup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Golden view said:


> Right, you only caulk the ends as a little dam, around here anyway.
> 
> 
> I'm a proponent of flashing and overkill because I see plenty of rotted sheathing at the lower corners of windows that look like they were installed good enough.
> ...


agreed,location and experience are the key,i also have pulled many windows and have found that it's usually the location and exposure of the unit that is more telling


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Just looked up the Alberta flashing code. Looks to me, that J doesn't have to be cut, and that heavy detail is only required when you do what we down here call a pine wrap.
> 
> Or am I missing something?
> 
> ...


We do it that way too, without cutting in, but the gap that it leaves isn't as aesthetically pleasing, so I prefer "letting it in" to the J trim. We have to do it over every opening, in any normal circumstance as far as I know.


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Taking this a step further (and knowing that "25 mm" is Canadian for "one inch"), I'm thinking that if I did a standard J wrap around a vinyl window with integral nail flange, no metal flashing detail would be required.
> 
> IOW, one ends up with something similar to what we do here in the states...


I just read those same stipulations in my code book, so yes, that would be appropriate as well, as long as a rain-screen system is used.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

carp.addict said:


> Gravity doesn't stand a chance against capillary action, not to mention wind driven rain. Taking a couple extra steps can make a world of difference in protecting your sheathing, structure, and insulation. I think it's worth it. Water rarely does what it's told to do.


Everyone is entitled to there opinion. A properly flashed vinyl window install doesn't call for metal z flashing. If someone wants to add that detail, have at it. A lot of the Windows come with pre applied casings now that have a pocket all the way around to accept siding. You wouldn't be z flashing these either as you would lose the top pocket.


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

EricBrancard said:


> Everyone is entitled to there opinion. A properly flashed vinyl window install doesn't call for metal z flashing. If someone wants to add that detail, have at it. A lot of the Windows come with pre applied casings now that have a pocket all the way around to accept siding. You wouldn't be z flashing these either as you would lose the top pocket.


Do you have a pic? I haven't seen those around here.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

carp.addict said:


> Do you have a pic? I haven't seen those around here.


Let me see if I can dig one up or if there's a window around I can snap a pic of.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

EricBrancard said:


> Let me see if I can dig one up or if there's a window around I can snap a pic of.


That's about the only style we install. I think it's a Silverline by Anderson if I recall. I just install whatever is on site but I think that's what we typically use. We've installed a few higher end windows which haven't had the pocket.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> That's about the only style we install. I think it's a Silverline by Anderson if I recall. I just install whatever is on site but I think that's what we typically use. We've installed a few higher end windows which haven't had the pocket.


I don't care for Silverline Windows much, but they have a really nice applied exterior casing.

The Windows I used on my house were KasKel Ecoshield triple glazed. The sashes are nice but I thought the exterior casings were poorly done. The ones on the Silverlines are 50x nicer.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

carp.addict said:


> Do you have a pic? I haven't seen those around here.


Most modular homes have that style of windows ,cheap too.

Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Randy Bush said:


> Most modular homes have that style of windows ,cheap too.
> 
> Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk


The option usually ends up being far less expensive than site installing PVC, aluminum or lineal surrounds with the added bonus of extending the flanges for ease of flashing.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

The thing I don't like about the built in channel is I normally need 1 1/8 J for siding and think they are only 3/4.

Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Randy Bush said:


> The thing I don't like about the built in channel is I normally need 1 1/8 J for siding and think they are o lay 3/4.
> 
> Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk


You using insulated panels?


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

EricBrancard said:


> I don't care for Silverline Windows much, but they have a really nice applied exterior casing.
> 
> The Windows I used on my house were KasKel Ecoshield triple glazed. The sashes are nice but I thought the exterior casings were poorly done. The ones on the Silverlines are 50x nicer.



I don't either but that's what we have been using. The interior fit and finish is nothing amazing. They are the only ones that I have installed with the integrated channel which is really nice for vinyl.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

EricBrancard said:


> You using insulated panels?


Steel siding with fanfold and drop in foam backer.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Randy Bush said:


> Steel siding with fanfold and drop in foam backer.


Then it makes no sense and really just creates more work for you. I wonder if they make deeper pockets that can be ordered? The other way is just ordering them with plugged pockets and running j around it.


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

Randy Bush said:


> I just installed some Andersen 100 windows and the Z flashing they provide for some of the windows the top leg was no taller then the flange its self.


And the Z-flashing that came with the Andersens I juat installed was no wider than the windows, no 1/2" overhangs.


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

I dislike most of the windows and sliders with integrated j-channel. The ones in my area are a much lowwr grade econ window for production homes. Also, one misplaced hammer swing and that j is broke. I've been on jobs to fix siding issues with these windows and doors, in cold weather I've had them break when my guys were a little rough popping out installed vinyl.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

This is the Jeld-Wen product. I almost bought a set for an income home - ALMOST.

The concept is good...


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

META said:


> I dislike most of the windows and sliders with integrated j-channel. The ones in my area are a much lowwr grade econ window for production homes. Also, one misplaced hammer swing and that j is broke. I've been on jobs to fix siding issues with these windows and doors, in cold weather I've had them break when my guys were a little rough popping out installed vinyl.


A misplaced hammer swing will compromise an entire Anderson window as well considering the nailing fin is part of the cladding. There's always drawbacks and the chance to make an error with any product. 

As far as the integrated exterior casing being on cheaper Windows, they can be applied to any grade of vinyl window.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

SmallTownGuy said:


> This is the Jeld-Wen product. I almost bought a set for an income home - ALMOST.
> 
> The concept is good...


That's pretty much it. But we use the 3" or 3 1/2" flat casing with sill nose instead of the 908.

Another nice thing about them is the nailing flange becomes so large, you can oversize the width of the R/O a bit more to get a nice bead of spray foam around the window. This becomes a real nice bonus when you order Windows with pre applied extension jambs for 2x6 walls. If the gap is too tight, it's hard to direct the foam where it needs to be to work effectively.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Tom Struble said:


> can you post a pic of the 1'' end dams?


The other pic was different. I'll see if I can find a pic somewhere.

It's completely unnecessary, the majority of homes are built with integral vinyl flanges. 

The point of the dam is to collect the water and force it to flow over the window/trim and not down the sides.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> That's pretty much it. But we use the 3" or 3 1/2" flat casing with sill nose instead of the 908.
> 
> Another nice thing about them is the nailing flange becomes so large, you can oversize the width of the R/O a bit more to get a nice bead of spray foam around the window. This becomes a real nice bonus when you order Windows with pre applied extension jambs for 2x6 walls. If the gap is too tight, it's hard to direct the foam where it needs to be to work effectively.


I looked over the Jeld-Wen product pretty good, and really didn't find anything seriously lacking for a straight vinyl product.

But I also looked over the house pretty good, and decided that between the tired vinyl and mix of plastered and drywalled rooms, to hold off and do windows and siding in 2016, when we take it off-lease.

If I were doing both for a living, damned straight I'd think about using them.


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

JT Wood said:


> The other pic was different. I'll see if I can find a pic somewhere.
> 
> It's completely unnecessary, the majority of homes are built with integral vinyl flanges.
> 
> The point of the dam is to collect the water and force it to flow over the window/trim and not down the sides.


It may be unnecessary in your situation, but the majority of windows here don't come with nailing flanges, we install ours from the inside so we don't need to get on a scaffold or scissor lift to pop them in. Saves a lot of time.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

How do you seal those? I've done cut out replacement windows, and all you can do is caulk the whizz out of them. But in new cpnstruction, that seems like just trying to make them leak.


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

VinylHanger said:


> How do you seal those? I've done cut out replacement windows, and all you can do is caulk the whizz out of them. But in new cpnstruction, that seems like just trying to make them leak.


Some builders use self sealing membrane (tyveck tape, blue skin), instead of attaching to the nailing flange on the flat, you fold it so it hits on the side of the window and on the house-wrap (turns a 90).

Some cheaper builders just use tuck tape to do the same thing. Then what ever cladding is used gets caulk around it like normal.


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

SmallTownGuy said:


> This is the Jeld-Wen product. I almost bought a set for an income home - ALMOST.
> 
> The concept is good...


That J is certainly better than some of the economy ones I've seen.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

carp.addict said:


> Some builders use self sealing membrane (tyveck tape, blue skin), instead of attaching to the nailing flange on the flat, you fold it so it hits on the side of the window and on the house-wrap (turns a 90).
> 
> Some cheaper builders just use tuck tape to do the same thing. Then what ever cladding is used gets caulk around it like normal.


Don't you need to get to the outside to flash it? Seems easier if the fin is built in. Nail and done. Less chance of a leak.


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

Some replacement windows can receive nailing flanges as well, but kind of is pointless being one would usually order new construction instead if flanged windows would work. I actually did do this once being replacement windows of the manufacturer I normally order from were twice as good as new construction. Problem is you need to install the flange, do custom cutting on them to get proper overlap and watershed. Then you still need to make sure the flange junction to window is sealed being they are just in a track vs. actually welded.


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

VinylHanger said:


> Don't you need to get to the outside to flash it? Seems easier if the fin is built in. Nail and done. Less chance of a leak.


Ya, they get flashed with the self-seal, then a head flashing when the siding goes on. The only time I install Windows is when I frame a house, a lot of builders get the framers to install them rough as soon as they can to block out the elements. 

I've seen those track flange's before, we end up pulling them out so we can install from the inside. It doesn't seem like a big deal to me, the only difference is the nailing flange, which gives you more nailing options, other than that, it's still water tight in the end. 

They come with built in jambs so they are nailed in solid to the frame as well. After spray foam it's not going anywhere.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

carp.addict said:


> It may be unnecessary in your situation, but the majority of windows here don't come with nailing flanges, we install ours from the inside so we don't need to get on a scaffold or scissor lift to pop them in. Saves a lot of time.


In my experience in Calgary. Which is almost completely new construction, the vast, vast majority of builders use vinyl flange windows and the framers install them. I've never even seen a situation where someone installs from the inside. Why would they? It seems like an inferior way to do it. An integral flange is far less likely to leak in my opinion. I'm no expert mind you, but it seems like the best practice to me.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

JT Wood said:


> In my experience in Calgary. Which is almost completely new construction, the vast, vast majority of builders use vinyl flange windows and the framers install them. I've never even seen a situation where someone installs from the inside. Why would they? It seems like an inferior way to do it. An integral flange is far less likely to leak in my opinion. I'm no expert mind you, but it seems like the best practice to me.


Even with a flanged window, you can install from the inside with straps and someone can nail it off on the outside later.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

You could I guess. Not sure why you would, but it's possible. 

I've done a few spec homes now. And I've framed many houses for a couple builders. The best situation for us is to have the framer install the windows and install the window sealant (envelope seal) at the time. Most framers have a telehandler and a man basket, so that helps immensely


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

EricBrancard said:


> Even with a flanged window, you can install from the inside with straps and someone can nail it off on the outside later.


You would have to account for the flanges in the R.S.O to be able to squeeze it out on the diagonal, and in that case, your leaving quite the space to fill with foam between the jamb.


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

JT Wood said:


> In my experience in Calgary. Which is almost completely new construction, the vast, vast majority of builders use vinyl flange windows and the framers install them. I've never even seen a situation where someone installs from the inside. Why would they? It seems like an inferior way to do it. An integral flange is far less likely to leak in my opinion. I'm no expert mind you, but it seems like the best practice to me.


I agree that it's better practice, I just said that's not what we get around here. But to be honest, I would prefer installing from the inside.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

carp.addict said:


> You would have to account for the flanges in the R.S.O to be able to squeeze it out on the diagonal, and in that case, your leaving quite the space to fill with foam between the jamb.


I've never had a case where I couldn't slide a normal window out from the inside. Even with 3 1/2" exterior flat casing and applied extension jambs. I've done quite a few second story Windows this way. Guy inside pushes the window out and pulls it back into place, guy on the outside nails it off. 

Something like a triple mulled unit with a half round on top is different.


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

EricBrancard said:


> I've never had a case where I couldn't slide a normal window out from the inside. Even with 3 1/2" exterior flat casing and applied extension jambs. I've done quite a few second story Windows this way. Guy inside pushes the window out and pulls it back into place, guy on the outside nails it off.
> 
> Something like a triple mulled unit with a half round on top is different.


Interesting, I'll have to try it sometime if I ever come across flanged windows.


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## Mike-B (Feb 11, 2015)

EricBrancard said:


> I've never had a case where I couldn't slide a normal window out from the inside. Even with 3 1/2" exterior flat casing and applied extension jambs. I've done quite a few second story Windows this way. Guy inside pushes the window out and pulls it back into place, guy on the outside nails it off.
> 
> Something like a triple mulled unit with a half round on top is different.


I like to put mine in from the inside on certain jobs.

Better than carrying a window up a ladder and across staging when doing a reno or addition. 

They normally fit through the RO easily. I open the top half of the window and stick my hand thru to handle it easier.

The Andersons I used have a strap holding the sides together till casing is installed. I tack the straps to the framing to temp it in place. Do this to all windows on one wall then go outside and climb up once to nail them off.


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

We were hired to install all of the windows in this development of 6-plexes. They didn't want the siders or the framers to do it. I was subcontracted by the window supplier for this project. 
Each 6 plex had two windows on the second floor, XOX, and it was heavy. It's only me and a helper, and we quickly figured out that carrying it up the stairs and setting it from the inside was way easier than muscling that stupid MI Window up the extension ladders. Even with the vents out.


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

Lettusbee said:


> We were hired to install all of the windows in this development of 6-plexes. They didn't want the siders or the framers to do it. I was subcontracted by the window supplier for this project.
> Each 6 plex had two windows on the second floor, XOX, and it was heavy. It's only me and a helper, and we quickly figured out that carrying it up the stairs and setting it from the inside was way easier than muscling that stupid MI Window up the extension ladders. Even with the vents out.


We almost always stage all windows on new construction installs from the inside. We still set up a pick on latter jacks for these beasts, though. Better safe than sorry.


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## ChrisPDX (Dec 30, 2015)

Hey guys, I actually sent my question to my local State IRC code consultant that was recommended to me about my questions and thought I'd pass the response along. 


_Hello Chris and thank you for your submittal; I have read your inquiry and prepared the following for you. _


_Regarding your inquiry about flashing please refer to Section *R703.8 *_
_Please note the word "Approved Corrosion- resistant flashing"._
_Your question about if the Adhesive "flash tape" falls under the approved corrosion resistant flashing category. _
_1. Approved corrosion resistant flashing shall be zinc, galvanized or metal(s) that won't corrode; the flashing is intended to direct the elements away for subsequent drainage in shingle fashion such stated in *R703.8*_
_2. Adhesive stick flash does not fall under the approved corrosion resistant flashing under *R703.8 *and is recommended by the manufacturer that it be protected from UV, and weather elements. _
_3. Adhesive stick flash should not be used in place of an approved corrosion resistant flashing such as stated in the section *R703.8 *in all Windows and door openings. _


_Your next question about window manufacturer(s) Windows Fins ( Flange Windows ) _
_Although we default to manufacture install instructions first and foremost; the section of *R703.8 *should and must be followed for flashing "window and door openings" and shall be incorporated in shingle fashion with the window manufacture installation instructions._
_Adhesive flashing for Windows and doors must comply with AAMA 711. _

_In your case in Washington State; Washington State adopted IRC codes cycles as has much of the country. Washington State adopted __and are currently following code cycle 2012. Please refer to Washington State Building Code Chapter 51-51 WAC International Residential Code 2012 Edition. Effective July 1st 2013. _



*R703.8 Flashing. *_
Approved _corrosion-resistant flashing shall be applied shingle-fashion in a manner to prevent entry of water into the wall cavity or penetration of water to the building structural framing components. Self-adhered membranes used as flashing shall comply with AAMA 711. The flashing shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish. _Approved _corrosion-resistant flashings shall be installed at all of the following locations: 

1. Exterior window and door openings. Flashing at exterior window and door openings shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish or to the water-resistive barrier for subsequent drainage. Flashing at exterior window and door openings shall be installed in accordance with one or more of the following:1.1. The fenestration manufacturer’s installation and flashing instructions, or for applications not addressed in the fenestration manufacturer’s instructions, in accordance with the flashing manufacturer’s instructions. Where flashing instructions or details are not provided, pan flashing shall be installed at the sill of exterior window and door openings. Pan flashing shall be sealed or sloped in such a manner as to direct water to the surface of the exterior wall finish or to the water-resistive barrier for subsequent drainage. Openings using pan flashing shall also incorporate flashing or protection at the head and sides.1.2. In accordance with the flashing design or method of a registered design professional.1.3. In accordance with other approved methods.2. At the intersection of chimneys or other masonry construction with frame or stucco walls, with projecting lips on both sides under stucco copings.3. Under and at the ends of masonry, wood or metal copings and sills.4. Continuously above all projecting wood trim.5. Where exterior porches, decks or stairs attach to a wall or floor assembly of wood-frame construction.6. At wall and roof intersections.7. At built-in gutters.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ChrisPDX said:


> Hey guys, I actually sent my question to my local State IRC code consultant that was recommended to me about my questions and thought I'd pass the response along.
> 
> 
> _Hello Chris and thank you for your submittal; I have read your inquiry and prepared the following for you. _
> ...


Can you give us the contact info for the IRC. That can be very handy.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

So a vinyl window with integrated exterior casing would still require a metal flashing cap? I don't think so :no:

A lot of these codes are written in a way that may not account for variation in materials. That's why we have manufactures instructions for the specific product being installed.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

EricBrancard said:


> So a vinyl window with integrated exterior casing would still require a metal flashing cap? I don't think so :no:
> .



They do here


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## carp.addict (Dec 26, 2015)

Same here. Always need a drip cap.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

JT Wood said:


> They do here


So you would flash over the top of a 3" integrated casing and j pocket and then notch the sides to meet back up with the integrated j pockets on the sides and add a piece of J-channel to the top? What would this accomplish aside from looking terrible and wasting time. Manufacturer instructions exist for a reason. The code can't possibly spell out everything.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Definitely don't need a cap here and never see one done with vinyl windows with flanges.


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