# How shady is the vinyl insert window biz in your area?



## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

I looked at a job that a 1000.00 a window vinyl insert co. did. Metal wrap kicked up on front edge of every sill ponding water against insert.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

That's just poor craftsmanship and plain ol' stupid. I would say it's totally unrelated to the amount charged for the window.

A bad install is a bad install, no matter what the price.


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

CompleteW&D said:


> That's just poor craftsmanship and plain ol' stupid. I would say it's totally unrelated to the amount charged for the window.
> A bad install is a bad install, no matter what the price.


x2

Shady to me means the tactics or claims used


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

The only thing I don't like about the vinyl window game in my area is when people sell customers with beautiful historic homes on antique windows then do a miserable install and ruin the character of the house.
Again, that's not the fault of the window and I don't know if that's even shady. It's more a combination or good salesmanship, poor homeownership, and the fact that everybody is broke and wants to save money on heating oil in the winter so they put the vinyl windows in to save some cash.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

If I tried to get 1,000 bucks a window around here I'd be shot. For that price I could give them copper wraps and a trip to the coast at a nice hotel as a bonus. :whistling

Back in the day, a certain large non big box retailer was selling in our area. They would sell 3 squares of siding and two windows for something like 10,000 dollars. They went around selling people siding and window jobs to make the front of their house look nice.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

The house I'm doing right now the ho had Primer Yankee come out to look at the windows. I sat in on the meeting and schooled the salesman. It was actually pretty sad.
I guess the ho had gotten a call from them about windows so he asked if they did new construction seeing we have the whole house gutted and they said yes. So the guy comes and tries to sell replacement windows and actually said that they were better. I asked how and he couldnt give me an answer. All in all pretty funny. As he left he goes 850 a window. :laughing:


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

1000./unit Good Sales...The insert market here vanished in my area. I miss it really 12-14 a day for a couple of guys was nice work.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

I rarely recommend an insert anymore


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## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

What bugs me is contractors selling inserts that don't meet egress requirements and city bldg depts that don't seem to care.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

thats cause they are not ''windows'' they are sash replacements


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

Can we please acknowledge that not all high price windows are a rip off... I offer windows from 300 on up to 950. And i aimt getting rich off the 950


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

acknowledged..:thumbsup:


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

kiteman said:


> What bugs me is contractors selling inserts that don't meet egress requirements and city bldg depts that don't seem to care.


What bugs me is inspectors who pick and choose who and where that is going to be enforced


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

We have rehab codes.. Unless you physically changing the opening structure the code does not mandate that you make it egress. You can often achieve egress in an old opening by going to casement but the windows look silly if they dont match.


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## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

Tom Struble said:


> thats cause they are not ''windows'' they are sash replacements


Still doesn't meet egress requirement.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

but your NOT replacing windows:blink:most of the time the old widows don't meet code anyway


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## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

Ah, so they're "grandfathered" in.:wheelchair:


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

tom i cant cant stand inserts either... the window companies go on about the energy savings your going to have.. hows it help if theres no insulation around the old frames to begin with..

locally $220 in labor is about right. if your talking a full replacement including siding work and retrimming the inside your looking at about $600 in labor


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

I don't hate them per say,I just believe full tear out is the best way..most of the time..for me personally


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Replacing a single pane window with a storm window has little benefits other than maintainence and a refresher. I like full replacements as well but Im not spending the money my clients are.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

but..it's our job to see they spend their money on the way we see it should be done..no?I see any sign of water or rot/spongy wood?NO INSERTS FOR YOU..like the soup nazi


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

All we can do is suggest unless its shot.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

The metal window with vinyl siding is where these guys need to say no.There is little chance anything gets flashed….. Or the wood casement that gets an insert and has 40% less glass after installation. Or the lap sided houses with wrapped trim sorta up to the siding. No permits, no inspections, no talent, no knowledge, no conciseness.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> The metal window with vinyl siding is where these guys need to say no.There is little chance anything gets flashed….. Or the wood casement that gets an insert and has 40% less glass after installation. Or the lap sided houses with wrapped trim sorta up to the siding. No permits, no inspections, no talent, no knowledge, no conciseness.


Man, SB.... this comment is full of old fashioned biases and not necessarily factual.

1) if you mean 30 year old metal windows where vinyl siding has been applied later, I would tend to agree about the flashing. BUT, on a metal window (even those with metal pans), normally get fully torn out. So, you're down to rough framing and the flashing issues can and should be addressed at this time.

2) You're obviously not aware of some of the newer vinyl casements. A LOT more glass than their traditional vinyl counterparts. Built to look like wood windows with stepped side jambs and have a LOT more glass than their older cousins.

3) Not sure what you mean by lapped siding with with "sorta" wrapped trim, but I'll take a stab at it. I'm making the assumption, that you are objecting to the window wrap. And, if done poorly, I would tend to agree with you, it can look cheap and ugly. However, done by a pro who takes pride in his work, it can look quite nice and give the homeowner not only a nice tightly sealed opening, but one he/she no longer needs to maintain. 

4) With regard to this statement: _"No permits, no inspections."_ Most window replacements (either full replacements or vinyl inserts) require no permits, so there will be no inspections. 

5) As for having _"no talent, no knowledge and no conscience"_.... I'm gonna finally take a whole lot of offense at this. First of all, a guy that only does full replacements and looks down his nose at those of us who do both, is not automatically, more talented, has any more knowledge, or has one iota more conscience. :no: 

So get off your high horse pal.... I've gone in and had to completely re-do window openings in million dollar homes because the more talented, more, knowledgeable installer before me screwed the pooch and had very little conscience to do the right thing when he installed the window in the first place.

Not all of us that do pocket replacement windows are hacks.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

I've got a few more points to make and then I'll shut my trap....

1) First of all, not every single HO can afford full window tear outs, nor do they necessarily need them. The sill nose and sash bottoms are the first to go bad on a window. The rest of the window frame may be quite sound. Let me ask you, do you always buy a whole new car when your brakes are shot? If you're filthy rich, sure. Otherwise, of course not. Not a perfect analogy, but you should get my point.

2) The vinyl and fiberglass/composite windows (inserts) we use, have MUCH better NFRC ratings (U value, solar heat gain coefficient, air and water infiltration ratings), than do their full frame wood or wood clad counter parts. Couple that with our "knowledgeable," very detailed and "conscientious" installation techniques and far better warranties.... I can give my customers a finished opening that is not only beautiful, totally maintenance free, costs less money up front and saves them more money over the life of the install. There is absolutely nothing "shady" in that at all.

3) I buy my windows direct from the manufacturer, all of them. Wood, vinyl and fiberglass/composite. Most contractors buy their windows through distribution. They are paying an additional 20% to 30% more for the same window I am buying direct. So, in almost every single instance, I can offer my customers a tremendous value AND quality installations we can both be proud of, that will give them years and years of trouble free service.

Ok.... rant over. :thumbup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Tom M said:


> All we can do is suggest unless its shot.


no..we can just refuse to do it


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Yeah okay Tom sure thing. There is nothing wrong with a cheaper option if the frames are intact.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

CompleteW&D said:


> Man, SB.... this comment is full of old fashioned biases and not necessarily factual.
> 
> 1) if you mean 30 year old metal windows where vinyl siding has been applied later, I would tend to agree about the flashing. BUT, on a metal window (even those with metal pans), normally get fully torn out. So, you're down to rough framing and the flashing issues can and should be addressed at this time.
> 
> ...


Most I see are nothing but "glued in" and look good for two years and the caulk turns dirty grey and cracks. Around saltwater the colored coil fails around the 6th year. On lap siding houses every install I see, nobody cuts the caulk at the perimeter trim to slip the metal between the siding and the trim. Its a sales game and has little to do with the product. Be mad al you want son, its the way it is, remove the oversight and thats whats out there. BTW, Ive put thousands of windows including inserts. All inserts in the 80s were complete garbage,most were mechanically fastened at the corners,half of them in the 90s had reground vinyl parts and failed. Consumer Reports rated the Certainteed Bryn Mar as the best in 97 98, turned out to be a POS with flat leaking sills, mildew nests at the screen whiskers and failed IG galore. The last 4 insert jobs I did were replacing failed inserts. Im curious what brand window, glue and tin you're using, apparently its perfect.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Shellbuilder said:


> Im curious what brand window, glue and tin you're using, apparently its perfect.


Can you tell me any building materials that are "perfect?"


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

The only time an insert is aceptabble to me "NOW is if the original flange is behind stucco or brick and a replacement cant be done w/o butchering the house. If i can do a full replacement w/o a butcher I cant fix I will always do that even if it takes a bit more time.

The reason i have such an issue is materials heating and contracton so differently, (even if you do it right a loose viynl window insert will drag and PO a customer in warm weather and be drafty in winter. spray foaming has only made the issue worse in my neck of the wooods


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> Most I see are nothing but "glued in" and look good for two years and the caulk turns dirty grey and cracks.
> 
> _You are talking workmanship issues and poor quality materials here. Never should a window be "glued in." Again, cheap caulk = cheap appearance after a couple of years._
> 
> ...


As for the brands we use, for vinyl, we use the SoftLite Gorell products, along with some Polaris. We may end up looking at Okna since the rep just left our office the other day and is hot after our business. I was very impressed with a couple of things I saw. 

On wood windows, we sell WeatherShield and also used to sell HURD. But, we just kicked HURD to the curb for reasons I won't go into here. When It's fiberglass/composite; ArmaClad.

I already mentioned the coil we use. For caulk, we almost always use GEOCEL Tri-Polymer products. http://www.geocelusa.com/siding-win...ypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=39&category_id=8

Are any of them perfect as you say? Nope, not a one of them. But, neither am I, nor are you. All we can do, is try to use the best product we can and install them with pride and passion each and every time.

You are obviously passionate about what you do. I appreciate and respect that. But, so are we. I am EXTREMELY proud of the work we do, We never short change a job just to squeeze a few more $$$ out if it, or purposely use what we know are inferior products or installation techniques.

You and I have crossed paths and been in complete agreement in other threads here at CT. In this particular instance, I guess we can agree to just disagree. No harm in that. :thumbsup:

Peace


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Tom M said:


> Yeah okay Tom sure thing. There is nothing wrong with a cheaper option if the frames are intact.


anybody ever tell you what a fun upbeat guy you are?..i bet they never have..:whistling


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Again, not really a valid argument IMHO. ALL window products have gone through their share of problems. The well documented Caradco junk in the 80's and 90's, BuiltBest in the early 2000's and if you want to talk about IG seal failures, how about HURD in the mid 2000's.



John,don't forget Marvin and the wood preservative issue


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Tom Struble said:


> Again, not really a valid argument IMHO. ALL window products have gone through their share of problems. The well documented Caradco junk in the 80's and 90's, BuiltBest in the early 2000's and if you want to talk about IG seal failures, how about HURD in the mid 2000's.
> 
> 
> 
> John,don't forget Marvin and the wood preservative issue


And Pella with the glass falling out of the wood casement sash

They had a class action settlement no one knew about or should I say admit


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

EricBrancard said:


> Can you tell me any building materials that are "perfect?"


None, but glued in top surfaced caulk is a joke. The only reason this is acceptable is because of the profits gotten from the sales. No contractor in the insert business can go back to their glue-in installation and show it to a potential customer 3 years later, its a nasty caulked mess. Inserts are tolerable to me without the metal trim and a "real" carpentry repair to the frame and molding.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

CompleteW&D said:


> As for the brands we use, for vinyl, we use the SoftLite Gorell products, along with some Polaris. We may end up looking at Okna since the rep just left our office the other day and is hot after our business. I was very impressed with a couple of things I saw.
> 
> On wood windows, we sell WeatherShield and also used to sell HURD. But, we just kicked HURD to the curb for reasons I won't go into here. When It's fiberglass/composite; ArmaClad.
> 
> ...


You are a rarity in the insert business, its a ^%#ing disaster here. Hat off to ya!


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> You are a rarity in the insert business, its a ^%#ing disaster here. Hat off to ya!


Thanks! :thumbup: I've certainly been called a LOT worse. :shifty:


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> None, but glued in top surfaced caulk is a joke. The only reason this is acceptable is because of the profits gotten from the sales. No contractor in the insert business can go back to their glue-in installation and show it to a potential customer 3 years later, its a nasty caulked mess. Inserts are tolerable to me without the metal trim and a "real" carpentry repair to the frame and molding.


Not all guys are good with a brake and their metal looks like dog doo. Some, like our guys and Mr. Struble, :notworthy are masters with it. The same with caulk. Our guys are masters with a caulk gun. It doesn't matter if you're applying caulk to metal or a wood carpentry repair. A bad caulk job is a bad caulk job.

Here are a few photos of our coil and caulk work....
The coil for the door jamb was bent by ProVia, the coil on the brickmold on the first one was bent by us, on the second, it was a factory bend but of course, caulked in by us....

















A couple more coil and caulk....

























And one last one, a before and after....


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## TLHWindows (Jan 5, 2012)

CWD, I think you do great work, no doubt. Keep it up.

Although I'm still not a fan of white caulk on red brick, at least on the sides.

As far as no-mar on the beach, it works but we sometimes upgrade to a heavier gauge metal to help keep corrosion and pitting at bay for as long as possible, but eventually all metal and finishes will get pitted.

:thumbsup:


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Apparently Mr Struble think inserts are garbage brake skills or not. Never said I didnt prefer new framed & trimmed windows but Im in business to provide options and suggestions to the customer. Everyone is sold on something in particular.

I dont think Renewal by Anderson thinks its a lousey job, just an alternate sale.

BTW outside of work Im fun Tom dont you worry..start talking about work and I get nuts.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

TLHWindows said:


> CWD, I think you do great work, no doubt. Keep it up.
> 
> *Although I'm still not a fan of white caulk on red brick, at least on the sides.*
> 
> ...


Thanks... 

And, I'm in agreement with you on the white caulk and red brick. I don't have a better answer though. If you try and use a red caulk, then the brick or caulk will very likely look orange. If you use clear, you'll see any gaps between the edge metal and brick.

_*EDIT: *_Even looking at those red brick/white caulk pictures again, I don't think a gray would look good. If you tried to match the color of the mortar and missed I don't think that would look right either. :no: So, my question below still stands....

What would you use or suggest, cause I'm stumped.... :blink:


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

CompleteW&D said:


> What would you use or suggest, cause I'm stumped.... :blink:


White/Bright White against most exteriors always jumps out. If it where caulked and painted, a good painter would paint the caulk white, matching the trim.

Done a lot of windows and wraps, white on brick, like that. A good caulk job like that is the only way to go. Thing is, in a short time the dust and grime builds up in the corners. Tones the "Brilliant" white contrast down. Making it blend better. I believe that maybe a reason why 'perceptually' one might think the fresh white caulk job does not look quite right. Compared to other similar window set ups.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Thanks....

I didn't think of a duller white caulk. But, honestly, the caulk matches the coil perfectly. I think maybe it looks a little brighter because the sun might have been shining right on it? I really don't know. I'm going to be up that way over the weekend. I may stop by and take a peek at what it looks like if I get a chance.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Take a look at it. I'd lay even odds the caulk bead has some dirt and grime on it. Looking much less "WHITE" at the edges as when it was installed. Imho a little time it does make a difference with white caulk/trim in this case.

I believe the caulk needs to match the trim vast majority of the time.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

I never said they were garbageand in the right place for the right reasons they are a good choice,but it's kind like a roof or siding job your almost always better off doing a full rip right?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Texas Wax said:


> Take a look at it. I'd lay even odds the caulk bead has some dirt and grime on it. Looking much less "WHITE" at the edges as when it was installed. Imho a little time it does make a difference with white caulk/trim in this case.
> 
> I believe the caulk needs to match the trim vast majority of the time.


agreed:thumbsup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

CompleteW&D said:


> Thanks...
> 
> And, I'm in agreement with you on the white caulk and red brick. I don't have a better answer though. If you try and use a red caulk, then the brick or caulk will very likely look orange. If you use clear, you'll see any gaps between the edge metal and brick.
> 
> ...


I usually do a brick ''kick'' on to the brick over the caulk


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## Max10 (May 2, 2006)

CompleteW&D said:


> Thanks...
> 
> And, I'm in agreement with you on the white caulk and red brick. I don't have a better answer though. If you try and use a red caulk, then the brick or caulk will very likely look orange. If you use clear, you'll see any gaps between the edge metal and brick.
> 
> ...


If the old caulking isn't smeared on the brick we usually just use a L-bend and cap the brick mold and use clear silicon against the brick (it does blend in the gaps between the edge metal and brick).
We never use white against the the brick only clear. If the old caulking is smeared on the brick we usually add a board to the existing brick mold to cover the old caulking.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Max10 said:


> If the old caulking isn't smeared on the brick we usually just use a L-bend and cap the brick mold and use clear silicon against the brick (it does blend in the gaps between the edge metal and brick).
> We never use white against the the brick only clear. If the old caulking is smeared on the brick we usually add a board to the existing brick mold to cover the old caulking.


Very nice indeed. I'm gonna have my guys try that one next time. OUTSTANDING! :thumbsup:

Gorell casement?


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## Max10 (May 2, 2006)

CompleteW&D said:


> Very nice indeed. I'm gonna have my guys try that one next time. OUTSTANDING! :thumbsup:
> 
> Gorell casement?


Great Lakes Uniframe


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Max10 said:


> Great Lakes Uniframe


Another fine example of the thinner frame profile some vinyl window manufacturers are going to. I like the beveled sash profile. 

There isn't a huge loss of glass on that casement like many older vinyl casements would have.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Max10 said:


> use clear silicon against the brick
> We never use white against the the brick only clear. If the old caulking is smeared on the brick we usually add a board to the existing brick mold to cover the old caulking.


Clear is fine and a good method. 

This is me and what I see, clear always makes the white trim look dirty on the edges. Anyone worth a crap puts a lot of effort into making the lines on the wraps clean and straight and a different color, even clear, seems to take away from that. When in doubt and as possible HO gets to call the caulk color when it's not obvious.

First & Most important: the installs are caulked.


Kolbe Kolbe has a line of Vinyl replacement Windows with very narrow sashes. Any experiences with that specific line?


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Some homemade frames today for an addition to put shady inserts in :thumbup:


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