# Ground wire problem



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Sheesh! They teach this stuff to appliance installers on the first day. You can install a range or dryer or a few other appliances with the frame bonded to the grounded conductor (the neutral) if the existing circuit doesn't provide a ground, and if the neutral is set up (insulated or SE blah blah) so that the risk of neutral current flowing through some other path (the resident, for example) is minimized. As every single appliance installer in the country will tell you, there are literally tens of millions of dryers and ranges installed this way in this country - every old appliance and every newer appliance installed into all the circuits that were installed prior to the 1996 change in code. If you have a house older than '96, and you have an electric range or dryer, chances are you have a 3-prong plug, and the frame is bonded to the neutral.

For example, go to page 4 of this manual: http://c.shld.net/assets/docs/spin_prod_774724512.pdf

for example. It's the installation manual for a currently sold Maytag electric range, and it makes explicit reference to the frame being bonded to the neutral, and the need to UNBOND the ground from the neutral if you are connecting to a newer, 4-wire circuit. That is, the range is manufactured and sold pre-configured for installation into a location WITHOUT an equipment grounding conductor.

You will find this language in the installation manual of EVERY electric range and dryer sold in America, and it's NOT because giant appliance companies are idiots and don't have lawyers, it's because it is perfectly code-complying and safe.

I'm sorry to shout, but this is Appliance 101.

That's the code. How it applies to the O.P.'s situation, I don't know, because I haven't seen and tested that circuit and that cooktop. But it's simply wrong to say without more information that the homeowner needs a new circuit.


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## Craftsmen Build (Feb 18, 2013)

I guess you know best.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

The instructions for that same Maytag for install in Canada specify a 4-prong plug only.:whistling


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## Craftsmen Build (Feb 18, 2013)

I am not an appliance installer. I am a certified master electrician with 20 years of experience. I have taught courses on bonding and grounding electrical equipment. The only place in the house that the neutral and ground electrode are to be connected is at the service entrance (the panel). I know that the appliance people allow the neutral to be bonded to the ground, but this is a compromise to allow the millions of homes that do not have grounded circuits to still be able to have electric appliances. It is better than nothing, but it is definitely not the safest option, as it creates potential differences to ground in the home (a whole different conversation...). Anyways, I know what you are saying is done every day, but I would still encourage my clients to upgrade the circuit. Think of it this way: Forty years ago, none of the circuits required bonding conductors. Now they all do. Why is that? Because people got hurt or killed from electrocutions, thats why.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Craftsmen Build said:


> I am not an appliance installer. I am a certified master electrician with 20 years of experience. I have taught courses on bonding and grounding electrical equipment. The only place in the house that the neutral and ground electrode are to be connected is at the service entrance (the panel). I know that the appliance people allow the neutral to be bonded to the ground, but this is a compromise to allow the millions of homes that do not have grounded circuits to still be able to have electric appliances. It is better than nothing, but it is definitely not the safest option, as it creates potential differences to ground in the home (a whole different conversation...). Anyways, I know what you are saying is done every day, but I would still encourage my clients to upgrade the circuit. Think of it this way: Forty years ago, none of the circuits required bonding conductors. Now they all do. Why is that? Because people got hurt or killed from electrocutions, thats why.


I agree with everything you say. Just to clarify, the ground and neutral aren't bonded at the appliance - the frame of the appliance is bonded to the neutral, providing what we might call a second-class equipment ground. And no matter what the code says, the original poster, in this case, surely needs to verify that all this will work with that particular stovetop. I appreciate your patient response.


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