# Call Me Crazy- New Business Tips Anyone?



## Jennelle (Jul 29, 2008)

As of today, my husband and I are now officially painting contractors. We are young (23) and crazy because we have basically no experience painting. We have very good business sense. We started and ran a coffee shop for a few years and then decided to sell the business and move closer to my family. We also have a lot of connections to general contractors and real estate agents which is why we decided to start in on painting in the first place. I work full time and we can live off my salary without any additional income from the business. A lot of people start in with their own business because they having been painting for several years and have no business know-how (I would call that crazy) so we are basically doing the opposite. 

We have business know-how but no specific painting skills- yet! One of my husband's friends has 3+ years of painting experience and he is our first employee. We are relying on him to show my husband the trade, but we have also been reading a lot on painting tips and techniques. I'm posting because you all started out painting at some time or another and probably have some good tips to share based on past mistakes, etc. Please share!


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Good luck and buy insurance


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

You had better check out your State Licensing for painting, in Michigan any paint job over $600.00 you need a License. as for learning Painting well it takes allot of gallons and practise. Hope you know how some paints work cause if you don't you could be pulling your hair out if you paint over something and it don't cover:whistling, have fun:clap: good luck:thumbup:

www.frankawitz.net


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

work with integrity and pride, good luck


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## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

Holy crapola. This is a tough one bc one the one hand I commend the entrepreneurial spirit, but on the other, without any experience in painting whatsoever, or contracting for that matter, you have at least 5 years before you will even have a foundation for an efficient painting company. Plus, I think this is a very slippery slope to rely on employees to train the owner. I know for a fact, because I only hire guys and girls in their 20's, that younger people who have their **** together and want to work for me ask almost as many questions as I do of them in the interview. If you clearly don't know what you are doing you have already lost them. Then it becomes a stand off as to how long it will be before you fire them vs. how much they can take advantage of you. My suggestion to you is to read as many business, marketing, and painting related threads on here, join the PDCA bc they will provide you (especially you) with education and even training in estimating, set yourself up as an LLC, and make sure you have the proper insurance. Good luck, I think.


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## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

(p.s. I can't wait until some of the really inspiring people on here read this thread)


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## CaptainAmerica (Jul 10, 2008)

One employee, with 3 years experience? Might make a good goffer on my crew. Keep in mind that when someone "pays" you to paint, they usually expect to be "paying" a professional... otherwise they'd do it themselves.

I'm no mechanic but I know alot of people that own cars, so I think I'll open a shop. :thumbup:


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

Oh maybe you heard the term "Anybody can paint!" Well I tell people my dog can paint as long as I keep his tail wet with paint and he stays happy and that tail is moving" More to painting then slapping it on the walls and ceiling.:thumbsup:


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## JBBS (Jan 17, 2008)

I refuse to comment until you post a pic of yourself.


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## jking09 (Jul 29, 2008)

*wow*

you've got alot of guts to just up and try painting..
that's a tough one, really... but i do wish you the best of luck!!
i hope it all turns out well for you and your husband.


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## rservices (Aug 3, 2005)

I would pour your self some of that coffee, 

My guess is the only one who's going to make any money is the painter, you'll be cover for all of the bad bids, wrong products, damages, etc.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Jennelle..you're crazy


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

oops...my business tip:

On your business cards...include the words "crazy painters"


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## RCPainting (Jan 29, 2006)

Go to painttalk.com, read every post,and the ones here! Join your local Homebuilders Association, PDCA, etc. Look for a group like SCORE that advises new businesses. You say you have business know how, have you looked at your states license requirements? Talked to an Acct? Set up business entity? Federal EIN? WC? 
Good luck!


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## Danahy (Oct 17, 2006)

This is so hard to reply to; It's so open to interpretation. Try asking more specific questions: 
Like:
1. Where do I start? Who do I call? What accounting program should I use? How much should I pay the employee? How much does a room cost?....

Of the three person's involved, who is in charge of the estimates? That person is the most important in my opinion. You are a silent partner? still working full time? Well if your income can support the 2 of you for now... Then you have a nice advantage at this point....

Best of Luck to your new venture, i'm eager to see/hear some follow up to how you make out


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## CaptainAmerica (Jul 10, 2008)

Wait, I thought business was the part they knew?


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## Danahy (Oct 17, 2006)

CaptainAmerica said:


> Wait, I thought business was the part they knew?


after re-reading the title, this became really funny :blink: lol


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

a guy with only 3 years experience is gonna teach you the ropes .........
OK ..........
I have been painting for 15 years and I learn new things everyday, when I was 3 years in I barely knew how to lace up my boots. 
I wont sugar coat it for you, you dont stand a snowballs chance in hell. Your work will be slow and low quality, you will have no idea about surface preperation or what materials to use. Your quality will be too low to compete with real contractors, and the illegals will beat or match your prices and more then likely still beat your quality. 
You are doomed:thumbup:


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## lornmastro (Mar 17, 2006)

However it is a great resource for information also painttalk.com. I too started without any professional experience but have learned alot in the last 7 yrs. First I would make a point of getting accounts with some of the local paint stores... like Sherwin williams or Benjamin Moore. Not only will you get contractor discounts but you will also be able to call them from a job with questions you might have. As far as writen info the best thing I have found so far is Wheels of learning painting by pearson education. Use good rollers, brushes and paint be reliable, honest and proud of your work. Oh also SW,BM and pratt and lambert offer cases with paint samples of all there colors, they will also send color samples to your customer at no cost to you. As a woman you can offer color consultations...this is a real plus since sooo many people are clueless to color. Woman are for the most part the decision makers in the home...I would try and be the one who is the one making customer contacts. woman like to deal with woman. PM me if you have any questions.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

I have been painting for over 20 years,
being a painter was the reason I couldn't be a good business person.
We are running a thriving business now, that grows as much as we are able to catch up with it.
It started growing when I stopped seeing myself as a painter.
You need good business practices first.
Some basic knowledge about the trade.
Some good painters and some great employees.

This comment I have a problem with:



> We have very good business sense.


Define very good.
You obviously have good sense, but business knowledge is what you are after.
You must know what you don't know. 
Asking here is a good start, join NAPP and the PDCA and use their resourses.
And despite what most will tell you here, your approach is better.

These boards are very valuable.
Good luck!


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## CaptainAmerica (Jul 10, 2008)

George Z said:


> I have been painting for over 20 years,
> being a painter was the reason I couldn't be a good business person.
> We are running a thriving business now, that grows as much as we are able to catch up with it.
> It started growing when I stopped seeing myself as a painter.
> ...


How in hell anybody could go into a business requiring a skill one does not have, is beyond me. Painting is the one thing in "construction" everybody thinks they can do. That is until they start doing it, and I'm just talking about home owners. When you start taking that mentality, and applying it to "professional" painting, that's when I get a bit irritated. Who's is going to go behind your employees making sure the job is done right? Another employee with 3 years experience, that knows his bosses wouldn't know how to go behind HIM? Because EVERYTHING that happens on a job is YOUR responsibility, and there's no passing the buck when your the owner. Ultimately the responsibility's not going to be on the employee, no matter how skilled and experienced he is at the end of the day. It's just psychological. 

Personally myself knowing whats involved in being a "professional" painter I'd feel like I was stealing offering someone a service, not having the qualifications in which to do so. This may be something anybody can "DO" but IMHO it takes more time developing skills as a "pro" painter than any other occupation in the construction related field. Most other trades can be taught, and once you know how, you know how. The skillzzzz requiered to be a "pro" at painting take YEARS to develope.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

CaptainAmerica said:


> How in hell anybody could go into a business requiring a skill one does not have, is beyond me. Painting is the one thing in "construction" everybody thinks they can do. That is until they start doing it, and I'm just talking about home owners. When you start taking that mentality, and applying it to "professional" painting, that's when I get a bit irritated. Who's is going to go behind your employees making sure the job is done right? Another employee with 3 years experience, that knows his bosses wouldn't know how to go behind HIM? Because EVERYTHING that happens on a job is YOUR responsibility, and there's no passing the buck when your the owner. Ultimately the responsibility's not going to be on the employee, no matter how skilled and experienced he is at the end of the day. It's just psychological.
> 
> Personally myself knowing whats involved in being a "professional" painter I'd feel like I was stealing offering someone a service, not having the qualifications in which to do so. This may be something anybody can "DO" but IMHO it takes more time developing skills as a "pro" painter than any other occupation in the construction related field. Most other trades can be taught, and once you know how, you know how. The skillzzzz requiered to be a "pro" at painting take YEARS to develope.


We have had tons of so called "professional" working for us, 
most of them don't last a week, some get fired on the first day.
In our mind we are all the best there is, you too.
In the meantime, we make good money keeping our customers happy.

Hundreds of handwritten testimonials, almost all of them references:
http://www.ecopainting.ca/testimonials.html

The point is, if you don't have the skills, hire the skills.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Jennelle said:


> We have business know-how but no specific painting skills- yet! One of my husband's friends has 3+ years of painting experience and he is our first employee. We are relying on him to show my husband the trade, but we have also been reading a lot on painting tips and techniques.


First of all, is this person really an employee or just someone that gets paid by the job for using your and your husband as apprentice painters? Know and understand the difference between an employee and an independent contractor. You have different wage reporting requirements for each. Be honest with yourselves or your youth and enthusiasm is going to write a check your inexperience can't cash.



Jennelle said:


> I work full time and we can live off my salary without any additional income from the business.



Let's face facts. At this point, you are working full time to support you and your husband and now you both have entered into what is a full time, 70-100 hour a week hobby. And you want your salary to subsidize this hobby. I'm willing to bet you're going to risk your credit scores on this hobby as well. 

Jennelle, call your insurance agent and get a name of a commercial insurance agent from him. Call that person and get a quote on general liability, workers comp, and riders for your tools. Be honest with them and tell them you have 3 employees, two of which might be exempted, but one of which can't be. 

Can your home budget (supplied from your salary from your full time job) pay those premiums? 
You're accustomed to seeing WC rates in the pennies or small dollars per 100 of renumeration. Welcome to contracting. You're about to see some much bigger numbers.

Now for the reality check. How much would your average plate of 2 eggs, a rasher of bacon, hash browns, toast and coffee cost if you had to travel to your customers home and prepare this meal for each and every one of them? What happens to the price if they call you to tell you they want breakfast, but when you get there, they need a table for 8 and they all want roast beef instead? Oh, and the best part is, they want to wait until Friday to pay, or will pay you when they get paid (but the real estate folks need an invoice showing some made up price paid in full faxed over to the closing company today, before 5:00 P.M., because they are closing on the property in the morning.)

As a contractor, this is exactly what you will face day in and day out. Your customers will set your prices for you, set your schedule for you, ask for one thing and expect another, be unclear and indecisive, evasive and outright lie to your face. Day in and day out.

"All trim to be sprayed with latex" will become "You need to brush all the trim and use oil. The client's father told her that trim must always be brushed with oil paint or it will peel in two years and look horrible. He also told her that your price was for brushing oil and you just want to shoot latex on it to gouge her and get by with substandard work."

Yup, welcome to our world. My best advice? Send your husband to work for Mr. Three Years Experience for a couple of years and put him on a diet of books for small businesses from Gerber, Stone, Rohr, and about 15 other folks. 

As George said, you MUST know what you don't know. How? By educating yourselves _before _you need to know.

I can tell you right now honestly, you and your husband are the two tastiest things on the menus of your general contractor and real estate folks menu of choices. They are going to eat you up and ask you to pick up the tab.

Good Luck


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Wow! I don't know what to say, that's a pretty good reality check there from double-A.

I guess what I would want to know is how many successful businesses have you started up and ran?

If you have a history of being able to do new businesses I'd give you a better chance, since really, once you've been around the block for 10 or more years and done this a few times (successfully, no matter what businesses you've had) you've pretty much seen it all and understand 90% of what most contractors in business still don't understand.

If this is your first business or 2nd after a failed one. LOL - oh my!


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

It's easy, just ask the guy at Home Depot.


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## ewingpainting (Jun 2, 2008)

Well, after reading this I think I will start my own practice in plastic surgery. I need clients pleases call 555-555-5555 I give free consultation. 

I'm waiting.


Still waiting.


Come on give me a call.

If you cant trust me with your face, why would i trust you with my house?


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## paintr56 (Feb 4, 2005)

I am going to disagree with the common thread here. If you really have business skills tell your husband to quite trying to learn to paint. You can always hire painters. Plan on hiring painters with more experience then three years. Concentrate on running your business. You should set a goal of having six full time painters and another four to six seasonal painters working for you within eighteen months. This should be a good start and will pay your salaries and leave a profit for the business. To start out with business skills and then learn to paint is going backwards. The head of General Motors doesn't assemble cars.

Jim


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## osborn (Dec 6, 2006)

Shes not crazy. Shes 23. Sorry to any young pros. But thats my 2.


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## CaptainAmerica (Jul 10, 2008)

osborn said:


> Shes not crazy. Shes 23. Sorry to any young pros. But thats my 2.


Nail meet head.


GM? :blink:... There are many businesses that requier little to know experiance in said field. Opening a scuba diving store comes to mind for instance. Painting however simply does not lend itself to this route in my point of view, however.


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## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

osborn said:


> Shes not crazy. Shes 23. Sorry to any young pros. But thats my 2.


I don't think age has anything to do with it if its the right person. I was 19 when I got started, and I'm 27 now.


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## CaptainAmerica (Jul 10, 2008)

Any Season said:


> I don't think age has anything to do with it if its the right person. I was 19 when I got started, and I'm 27 now.


I call bull*****!!!


If you started at 19, theres no way you'd have made it to 27. You'd have been dead a long time ago.


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## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

This summer has nearly finished me off. I am considering hypnosis for stress.


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## Brian (Jun 9, 2004)

CaptainAmerica said:


> How in hell anybody could go into a business requiring a skill one does not have, is beyond me.
> 
> Personally myself knowing whats involved in being a "professional" painter I'd feel like I was stealing offering someone a service, not having the qualifications in which to do so.


I've been a painting contractor for 22+ years, and I suspect that virtually anyone reading this (except maybe the OP) can paint better than I can.

As George Z alluded to, there is a difference between being a painter and being in the painting business. Being a painter requires knowing how to put paint on the wall. Being in the business requires knowing how to estimate, sell, manage people, manage cash flow, etc. These are vastly different skill sets, and one can have one without the other.

Brian Phillips


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## CaptainAmerica (Jul 10, 2008)

Brian said:


> I've been a painting contractor for 22+ years, and I suspect that virtually anyone reading this (except maybe the OP) can paint better than I can.
> 
> As George Z alluded to, there is a difference between being a painter and being in the painting business. Being a painter requires knowing how to put paint on the wall. Being in the business requires knowing how to estimate, sell, manage people, manage cash flow, etc. These are vastly different skill sets, and one can have one without the other.
> 
> Brian Phillips


Sure, if daddy gives "anybody" enough cash to start, they could do pretty much anything. However, I could think of easier more lucrative business opportunities for someone that doesn't know how to "paint" to take advantage of.


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## CaptainAmerica (Jul 10, 2008)

*And BTW...*

How the hell does someone that doesn't know how to paint, insure they're curtomers of a top quality job, if that person doesn't know what that is?


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Knowing how to do something and actually being able to do it is two different things. 

I know if my plumber or electrician does good work. But I damn sure won't try to do their jobs myself. But I can pull them up on shoddy or half ass work, doesn't make me a plumber or electrician


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## CaptainAmerica (Jul 10, 2008)

rbsremodeling said:


> Knowing how to do something and actually being able to do it is two different things.
> 
> I know if my plumber or electrician does good work. But I damn sure won't try to do their jobs myself. But I can pull them up on shoddy or half ass work, doesn't make me a plumber or electrician


Do you employ an electrician or sub it out to someone with their own business, and something to loose? BTW you ARE aware that those positions require a license?... even for employees.

I could paint the door frame to your living room, and have it looking PRISTINE!... for about three weeks if it had previously been painted in oil, and I'd decided to go over it in latex.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

did you even read my post?:no:


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## Brian (Jun 9, 2004)

CaptainAmerica said:


> Sure, if daddy gives "anybody" enough cash to start, they could do pretty much anything. However, I could think of easier more lucrative business opportunities for someone that doesn't know how to "paint" to take advantage of.


Captain,

I started with $20 and a willingness to learn. My daddy didn't even know what I was doing. I will not begin to claim that others couldn't do the same.

You seem to think that the only want to have a successful painting business is to know everything about painting. I disagree. 

If one knows what his customers want, expect, and are willing to pay for, he doesn't need to be able actually put the paint on the wall. He does need to deliver the final product, but that doesn't mean he has to do it.

There may be easier ways to make money. So? Are you saying that paint contracting can't be lucrative? If so, speak for yourself.

Finally, don't end sentences with prepositions. It really diminishes the public's perception of our industry. 

Brian Phillips


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## CaptainAmerica (Jul 10, 2008)

Brian said:


> Captain,
> 
> I started with $20 and a willingness to learn. My daddy didn't even know what I was doing. I will not begin to claim that others couldn't do the same.
> 
> ...


I hardly lift a paint brush myself these days. In fact I've had to learn quit a few things "on the fly" as it were. Such as how to read conduit electrical plans "AS" the city inspector is going over them with me (and without him knowing). I'll say it AGAIN! Painting simply DOES NOT lend itself to those that DO NOT know how to paint professionally ,as a lucrative business. I could go on and on as to the reasons behind this, but I won't.

Oh! and worry about how you end your own sentences. You might give people the perseption that everybody in our industry is a jackass.


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## Brian (Jun 9, 2004)

CaptainAmerica said:


> In fact I've had to learn quit a few things "on the fly" as it were. Such as how to read conduit electrical plans "AS" the city inspector is going over them with me (and without him knowing). I'll say it AGAIN! Painting simply DOES NOT lend itself to those that DO NOT know how to paint professionally ,as a lucrative business. I could go on and on as to the reasons behind this, but I won't.


Captain,

You should read Locke's Two Treatises on Government. He makes a very compelling case for the inadequacy of arbitrary assertions.

As he eloquently points out, arbitrary assertions can be easily countered with contrary claims.

You yourself state that you have had to learn “quit [SIC] a few things ‘on the fly’". Why can’t someone else?


CaptainAmerica said:


> Oh! and worry about how you end your own sentences. You might give people the perseption that everybody in our industry is a jackass.


Thank you for the advice, but I think you are doing the job fine without my help.

The OP wanted some advice and you berated her. I don't think that was called for, nor did it help her. She can succeed, even without knowing how to paint, if she learns how to run a painting business. You can disagree all you want, but that won't change the facts.

Brian Phillips


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## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

Damn...I've been following this thread on and off and have to agree with one of the earlier posts that said if these people had a history of starting multiple successful businesses, that would be one thing. To say that you don't need any real knowledge of your industry is foolish. Anyone who can sit there and say that if you were on a jobsite with some carpenter, electrician, roofer, whatever, and this person 'ran a nice business', but had no idea what he was doing, that you would be sitting there admiring the business skills instead of killing the guy either to his face or behind his back you are a liar. There needs to be a level of knowledge so you can have an accurate pulse of your business, and as I said earlier, it is a slippery slope to let your employees teach you. There is a huge difference between hiring a guy that you can hang a couple of employees on to allow you to do other things, and hiring a guy that knows more than you do and is relied on for advice. I'd rather give a five year old a credit card.


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## CaptainAmerica (Jul 10, 2008)

*Wow!!!*



Brian said:


> Captain,
> 
> You should read Locke's Two Treatises on Government. He makes a very compelling case for the inadequacy of arbitrary assertions.
> 
> ...


You should have prepared me better. I didn't realize you were were getting ready to "DAZZLE" me! :clap:


Facts are funny things. I'm just wondering who gave you the impression, you had them all. :notworthy


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## CaptainAmerica (Jul 10, 2008)

Anyseason... that's just good plane talkin. :thumbsup:


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

CaptainAmerica said:


> You should have prepared me better. I didn't realize you were were getting ready to "DAZZLE" me! :clap:
> 
> 
> Facts are funny things. I'm just wondering who gave you the impression, you had them all. :notworthy


Actually its simply a difference of opinion. Owners who work for their business and owners who have their business work for them. that's all


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