# Tiling - man hours per sq. ft.



## angus242

CENTERLINE MV said:


> I mean seriously, why does every simple question on this site have to turn into a pissing contest?


Really? Every Question, huh? And you say a simple one? 

*That's the whole fricking point here. It's not a simple answer.*

There is no magical worksheet to give an accurate answer for every job. Since you're all about the original question.

How far do I have to travel to get to the job?
Do I have time restrictions on when I can start?
Do I have time restrictions on when I need to finish?
Does the area need access to foot traffic at all times?
Am I supplying the materials?
Where are the materials stored on site?
Where is my work area compared to the floor to be tiled?
Is there exterior water accessible?
Is there interior water available?
Is the project area heated?
Is my work area heated?
What is the structure of the floor?
Do I have to add bracing to the subfloor?
Do I need to scarify anything?
Am I removing trim?
How much of it?
Do I need to move appliances?
Will I be replacing trim?
Will I be replacing appliances?
Do I need to add molding to the finished work?
Do I need to stain any wood?
Are there areas that need to be protected from dust?
How many jambs do I need to cut?
Will there be in floor heating?
Do I need to bring in any subs?

Those questions get answered right along side of using a tape measure. Tell me how the hell any of that can be answered by saying 10'x10'?

So to be as vague as your original question; Less than 2 weeks but longer than 2 days.


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## CENTERLINE MV

angus242 said:


> Really? Every Question, huh? And you say a simple one?
> 
> *That's the whole fricking point here. It's not a simple answer.*
> 
> There is no magical worksheet to give an accurate answer for every job. Since you're all about the original question.
> 
> How far do I have to travel to get to the job?
> Do I have time restrictions on when I can start?
> Do I have time restrictions on when I need to finish?
> Does the area need access to foot traffic at all times?
> Am I supplying the materials?
> Where are the materials stored on site?
> Where is my work area compared to the floor to be tiled?
> Is there exterior water accessible?
> Is there interior water available?
> Is the project area heated?
> Is my work area heated?
> What is the structure of the floor?
> Do I have to add bracing to the subfloor?
> Do I need to scarify anything?
> Am I removing trim?
> How much of it?
> Do I need to move appliances?
> Will I be replacing trim?
> Will I be replacing appliances?
> Do I need to add molding to the finished work?
> Do I need to stain any wood?
> Are there areas that need to be protected from dust?
> How many jambs do I need to cut?
> Will there be in floor heating?
> Do I need to bring in any subs?
> 
> Those questions get answered right along side of using a tape measure. Tell me how the hell any of that can be answered by saying 10'x10'?
> 
> So to be as vague as your original question; Less than 2 weeks but longer than 2 days.


Thank you for proving my point about this being a pissing contest.:thumbsup:


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## angus242

CENTERLINE MV said:


> Thank you for proving my point about this being a pissing contest.:thumbsup:



Have you lost your mind? Are you seriously telling me all of that information _doesn't_ go into how long it takes to tile a room?


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## PrestigeR&D

*this is a ...*

lost cause Angus... I gave up ... something else is going on here..

B.


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## angus242

Yeah, I'd be more serious about this whole thing if the OP wasn't being so misleading and whiny. Actually my first replies weren't even directed at him but in this age of easily obtaining _free_ advice via internet forums, folks must feel they have the right to get the answer they want instead of having it answered as it was asked.


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## Tinstaafl

Since everyone else is abusing the fire hydrant, I'll take a turn at it.

I happen to agree with the OP. Sure, there are a zillion factors to be considered for full analysis, and he seems to be well aware of that fact and not asking anyone to stake money or a reputation on the answer. There's a lot of unnecessary nitpicking going on here.

It's not really that tough for anyone who's been at it a while to say "This size, this complexity, average X to Y time in my experience."

Or say nothing at all. :whistling


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## angus242

So now we have to censor our answers if they don't fit within certain criteria? :no:

I replied to someone else's comment. Then the thread turns into a pissing match? That's just dumb.

Don't ask for free advice if you're not willing to get everyone's take on it.

Besides, I feel there _is_ a bit of wisdom in my "answer" for those who are willing to read.


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## JumboJack

angus242 said:


> Have you lost your mind? Are you seriously telling me all of that information _doesn't_ go into how long it takes to tile a room?


There you go being obstinate* again Angus....:laughing:







*5.00 word courtesy of Thom.


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## PrestigeR&D

*Tin,,,,*

with all due respect...:notworthy

Centerline wants to know how much time his subs are expected to take.... now what is that time allotment based on, so far all we have is it's a 10x10 that's it... that's all -ZIP 
He wants to hire subs to do the work,,great...fine.. then he should get some quates...the window of availability and the length of time to complete the job....go through them all and then evaluate based on the information he has been given at hand.....cut & dry as far as I am concerned.

So he is asking us to give a blind time allotments on a 10x10 tile job which we know nothing about -where,what's invloved...etc..etc... and then he is then going to use this for leverage against the subs...it would be totally unprofessional (IMO) to give such information based on the lack of.... this IMPO is a piss a"" way to conduct a successful business. 


I can hear it now...

"WELL",,
"The guys over at CT said it would only take *** amount of time to do"....

If I were them... I would look Centerline right in the eye and say "Did they see the job..(NO). do they know what's involved..(NO) then their opinions are irrelevant my friend"...

I think as Professionals we don't handle our business dealings blindfolded. To recommend this way of operating to anyone going into this business... is suicidal IMO and does not say much for us either...

If people were a little bit more clervoyant...with their questions.. that would definitely help...but this is what happens....

what would help Centerline is to talk with the contractors that he is considering for the tile work... and go from there... I don't know what else to say other than that...

B.


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## CO762

I think the resistance is to give some internet account a number to go off in basing "what the price should be" for their work. Then that stranger/account will do all the adjustments to arrive at some "fair market price". They have no control/input on any adjustments needed for their trade in order to give a real $/sf number. All that majik is done by someone far away, someone they don't know written in a program by a person they don't know.

It's all about "assumptions".

Those that do give a price/sf need more information before they submit that price--things under their control, within their sphere of local market and experience. I've found people that give a $/SF for installs w/o more information are either clueless or are king of the write ups. There are many people who throw out a figure, only to add on this and that as they progress as a general practice. So if they know what they are doing and are honest, they'll give ya a high dollar $/sf w/o much information. Way high to cover themselves.

But in your example--I'll give ya a price to install 12by porc--$5.00 for the install in that situation.

How long will it take? I dunno, will you have all the tile there? Do I have to pick it up? Will other trades be around? Does your delivery guy bring out everything I requested? Do you purchase the right things, the ones I tell you? Is it close to me or do I have to drive 2 hours? etc.

As for time to install, well you've said you've done a few installs, so think back on how long it took you to smear it and set it. Ignore the cuts and you should have a pretty good idea on that open space you mentioned.
Doesn't take a lot of time to smear thinset down and set a piece of tile, so multiply that by 100 and you'll get your figure.


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## angus242

JumboJack said:


> There you go being obstinate* again Angus....:laughing:


Did you just call me an ass? :blink:

:jester:


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## JumboJack

angus242 said:


> Did you just call me an ass? :blink:
> 
> :jester:


 I'm not sure....:laughing:


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## Mike Finley

CENTERLINE MV said:


> *THANK YOU!* That's all I'm looking for. "In upwards of a couple days" is exactly what I'm talking about. If I meet a sub to look at the job and he tells me "in upwards of a week" then I know something is up & I can call him on it. Any job I've been on where tiling has been involved on this scale, I hadn't been around to see how long it takes the pro's to do it. So for me, your feedback is very helpful. Thank you.:thumbsup:


Personally I don't see any value to anything you've been able to take out of this. 

I think you want some sort of guideline to go by for judging a tile subs time line. 

That's fraught will f**k-up-id-ness to follow because it's meaningless if a sub tells you 1 day, 2 days or 4 days and you say to him, hey, this should take 2 days. What's the result of that supposed to be? The guy is being paid by the hour so you get a better deal? 

Let me put it this way. A job we're on now.

3 tile setter bids, we always ask for time frame with the bid.

#1 $4000 8 days.
#2 $3800 6 days.
#3 $4800 10 days.

Between 3 tile setters there is a swing from 6 days to 10 days for the same job. What bearing does the time frame have?

The 6 day guy works alone and is fast as hell.

The 8 day guy uses an apprentice to make his cuts

The 10 day guy works with his brother who is as skilled as he is.

What's up with the time frame?

What would I do? Say, to the 10 day guy, this should take 7 days not 10.

He's going to look at me and say - "It will take me 10. I might be done in 9, but I want 10 days to ensure I can have enough time to do it right"

In short centerline I don't see what you're accomplishing with trying to have some sort of time guideline. 

Unless you're paying by the hour and not the job, I don't see the relevance.

Tradesman take the time they take. The only thing that matters besides the quality, is if the guy say 10 days, he gets it done in 10 days. If the guy says 6 days, he gets it done in 6 days.


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## BamBamm5144

Wow. I never knew a post about a rough time frame of how long it would take to tile a certain area could be this entertaining.

I would have it done in two. Never done tile. But two days. Longer than two days and I usually just leave.


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## mikeswoods

BamBamm--I like the attitude--(get the check before you start):laughing:


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## CO762

angus242 said:


> I don't see how you can successfully bid a shower by sq ft....
> I am a business person (albeit perhaps not the best, but I'm working on it) and I don't use a standard set per foot pricing matrix....and never will.


I think the owner/shop/sub/abcdefg does so as they break things down to boogers in their costing calculations. In large/commercial jobs, they'd just say we're paying $x/sf, $x/lf (base), etc. Most installers know how much they can do in a day, so they take it from there. But you're right on the showers as if there are multiple people working, one will try and start dropping all the floors and leave the showers for others. Sometimes they stick in a $X/per niche, but even accents trips are part of the whole. Then throw in a bench, etc.

I've seen more people lose on showers with piece rates as they didn't realize how good/fast ya gotta be to make money at the piece rate offered. A great indicator of that is their jobs start falling behind as they keep bringing in new subs....


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## CO762

BamBamm5144 said:


> I would have it done in two....But two days. Longer than two days and I usually just leave.


and the company will short you for the work you did because [fill in the blank], but you know that, so you take some of their material/ tools with you.

So new group comes in and gets to work...then as they go, they find out they're missing a lot of the things needed to complete/continue the job....now the money they make goes way down as they sit around and wait for the shop/GC/xyz to bring in replacement material.

The latter used to be one of my favs--they pay by the piece, yet often can't get their feces collected enough to give you all the material you need to finish it. And of course they won't pay you squat for that unit until it's all done.....

So many reindeer games and the more wh***ed it is with illegals/hacks, the more games played as that proverbial piece of fecal matter rolls down that hill.


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## Darwin

CENTERLINE MV said:


> Thanks, no that's not what I plan on doing. I have a great relationship with my electrician, plumber, & HVAC guy--they definitely get all of my work. I never had a tile guy (I'm less than a year in business) but am in the process of looking. Which is why I'd like this number b/c if a guy gives me a time estimation of twice as long as it takes, a red flag will go up. That's all I'm looking for. *A lot of guys replying seem to think I'm looking for a price.* Just looking for a VERY general estimate of how long they think it might take with the info I provided. This info, will help me get a read on who might be taking advantage of the new contractor and who is genuine. Thanks again for your help.


You are looking for a price. You are just asking for it in a different way.

To learn this business, you must not be afraid to get _your own_ feet wet. Scared money don't make money. Apply yourself and figure out your own damn math -- instead of attempting the easy way out: asking real Contractors. Some of the guys here understand and the red flags go up with you.

Also, to engage and be a likeable business person, you must learn to speak in gentle, friendly tones to the general public: Us. You have failed in that. You appear to us as the resident hothead.

Let us know where you are at in 5 years. Good luck.


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## 5starbuilders

Bam Bam have you worked for me in the past?:laughing: I have seen this same scene before. No wonder why that guy didn't show back up, It took more than 2 days


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## 5starbuilders

I always enjoy the late penalty clause in my sub contracts. I ask the sub how long will it take you to do this job. He says 5 days. I say Ok , I will add 3 more days to your contract. For every day it is not complete after such and such date there will be 250.00 deducted daily from the original contract amount until satisfactory completion. Talk about selling your soul to the devil. It tends to make subs a little more responcible for thier work ethic. And this clause has worked great in the past. I had one painter who turned out a truly crappy job , and he said " you will hear from my lawyer" .I said that fine, But according to this contract that you agreed to and signed by the time we get to court you will owe me money for damages and material and lost time, and the amount needed to fix this %$#@! .He gladly came back and polished his turd to a some what desirable manner. Oh I forgot he said he keeps a lawyer on a retainer:laughing:


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## CENTERLINE MV

:laughing::laughing: I agree with you Bam Bam... this thread has turned into a hillarious skit :laughing::laughing: I hope that came off as a gentle tone to the public:laughing::laughing: I don't want to make anyone cry:laughing:


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## angus242

:thumbsup: Silly questions tend to do that around here.


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## BamBamm5144

To be honest. I think I hired myself once or twice before.

Usually I make sure to get 75% of the job up front and use all the employers tools. Tools that I will of course be taking at 2:30 pm on the second day because that's as late as I work.


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## CO762

BamBamm5144 said:


> I....use all the employers tools. Tools that I will of course be taking at 2:30 pm on the second day because that's as late as I work.


Dang, I gotta remember that as I recall working for a guy that kept on using all my tools. So I put my name on them, then he accused me of putting my name on his tools. But I was outta there by 2:30 also...about an hour or so after he left.... :laughing:


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## assets444

CENTERLINE MV said:


> :laughing::laughing: I agree with you Bam Bam... this thread has turned into a hillarious skit :laughing::laughing: I hope that came off as a gentle tone to the public:laughing::laughing: I don't want to make anyone cry:laughing:


It's not a party till someone says:
Tree Fiddy:clap:


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## fast fred

I can't belive I missed out on this.

So a buddy and I were comparing prices a month or two ago. 

He prices a STANDARD shower tile job by the sq ft. He has it all broken down. This is for labor and basic materials. (no tile)

DEMO
PAN
BACKER
TILE
GROUT/SEALER

I price it by the job, same tasks as him, standard installation (not the sq ft) the whole package, labor and basic materials.

By golly our prices were right in the ballpark of each other. The moral of the story as long as your not a hack jack azz it don't matter how you come up with a price.

ps was lucky enough to be in lowes last week and the were advertising $4.50 sq ft tile installation with all kinds of conditions on the advertisment. I'd hate to be that guy.


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## Aaron Tritt

I agree with both Mike and Angus to some extent. I have a baseline starting price per square foot. Then add layout challenges (b/n, patterns, giant tiles, miniature tiles, extra prep, etc.) If the job has inconveniences built in (travel, pay parking, no dumpster, etc.) that also adds cost.

I can generally set about 15-20ft/hour with my helper. This is including setup, and cuts in a kitchen floor with an island. Prep work and grouting are additional to this number. I take my time and back butter the tiles or floor and trowel the other depending on the situation. 

A 100 ft floor would probably take me 3 days with a straight lay start to finish without complicated demo.


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## GO Remodeling

I subcontract to GC's alot. They all want sq/ft pricing for their bidding purposes. What they don't get is a firm price until I see the job conditions, patterns/layout, type of tile, who's supplying what material, time frame,etc. 

So it's better if you just bring in a guy or two to visit the job and ask the right questions ie. how much, how long, what's your experience....

For example, just laid 6"x36" wood-look tile. I know it will be warped. (sight down the tile and there's a solid 3/16" warpage.) The GC bids the job without a tile selection and sq/ft pricing. Floors got a hump and needs to be very level for this tile. No way is that tile going in by the sq/ft. 

So your question won't really be answered unless your bring the tile guys to the job site , let them bid the job and then divide by the sq/ft. Then similiar jobs and materials should cost about the same sq/ft.


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## Winchester

Wow... lot's of pages of fun... I got through 2 of them :laughing:

Any price I've received from a tile guy has been sf and lf pricing...

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean it's how they calculate it, it's just how they present it. I have no idea how they come up with the numbers.

the numbers are subdivided e.g.: wall tile s.f., 12x12 floor tile s.f., shower pan s.f., underlay sf, baseboard l.f., shower curb l.f., etc...


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## GO Remodeling

how many man hours does it take to do 10lf of a kitchen remodel?


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## SSC

i just wasted an hour of my night reading this thread:furious:.


i started in this buisness as a tile setter. Estimates are always done by the sq. ft... with that said it does not mean for a bathroom floor (usually 25 sq.ft) that i am going to charge you 25 x $. every professional tile setter should have an idea of what to charge per sq. ft. on a 100sq. ft. or more. keep in mind that number is usually the base line number any factor that costs me time is going to cost you money :whistling cuts molding, design patterns, miter cuts, borders etc etc etc.

As i dont agree with the tone of some of the people on here i do agree with the fact that a timeline is of no importance to you. cost and quality should be your concerns. does it matter to you if setter one finishes in 2 days and its an ok job and setter 2 finishes in 3 days and its very good work.

go to the box store and get a price for tile install over slab. use this as a base to compare your subs. remember it is a base price it only goes up from their. this is how i estimated my first couple jobs 15 years ago.


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## angus242

Perfect way to end a thread. Remember the rule about personal attacks. You have been warned.


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