# Mandatory Wsib in Ontario



## Pete'sfeets (Mar 20, 2011)

They are considering madatory wsib coverage for Ontario new construction sites or all commercial jobs in 2013, at least they passed the bill, so I was looking into wsib. -- That's workers comp same stink and trying to see what my rate would be. I can see it now, like walking in a jungle , fall into a pit of quicksand and then with only my head and near useless arms left a samurai warrior appears to help, and chops off me head, A head is a head, is ahead. Anyhow at 7.70 per hundred it'd be 115 per week for 1500 and say 1350 per quarter which is the minimum length you can opt for. Do you think the builder will notice if I add say 600 to his bill just to sort of cover the expense? Are my estimates a bit high? They never give you a straight answer these days until you are waist deep.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

It's called the cost of doing business, you sit here and ***** about something that the rest of us pay already. And my rate 8.70 with no claims, suck it up buttercup. Let me guess you don't carry liability insurance either since it's not demanded on you, correct?


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

Chris Johnson said:


> It's called the cost of doing business, you sit here and ***** about something that the rest of us pay already. And my rate 8.70 with no claims, suck it up buttercup. Let me guess you don't carry liability insurance either since it's not demanded on you, correct?


You said it before I could, and less kouth than I would!!


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

I thought sole propriators (one man bands) didn't have to pay wsib premiums, and as such don't collect benefits in the event of injury either. 

I believe that the op is reffering to the new bill that will require SP's to insure themselves through wsib.

In any case, you have the choice, eat the additional cost or up your rates to reflect the new overhead burden.


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## Pete'sfeets (Mar 20, 2011)

Of course i carry liability insurance, for all twenty years, never claimed anything, thanks for the huge support Mac , ya miserable cuss, puss head, Any how are those estimates correct, or is there some consideration for other expenses that might reduce my perceived income that they would use to multipy the rate by. I've just avoided the workmans comp after a couple of stints with helpers that hose me to death and the wsib that for some reason didn't seem to understand that I didn't want their coverage if I didn't have employees, getting those letters weekly like as if I have a full office staff and accountants , I work out of my garage , the truck is an office mostly. The choice obviously is do commercial or new construction or don't , can i afford the extra 5000 expense, is it really worth the aggrivation,. They suggested that the mandatory clause would be reconfigured in the new year, but i've seen how government works, and it's all talk no action, like a bad salesman scamm.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

If this bill is making it mandatory WC for self employed with no employees than that's a whole different ball game.

The way the first post was worded it sounded like they were just saying you now need WC if you pick up an employee.

It's not a bad idea, as it protects the end user if you get hurt on their property, but cost is cost, and needs to be passed into that newly protected end user (the customer).

Now I'm just confused.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

Single owner operators can currently apply for a waiver if they are going to be working on a job that is asking for it. However they will have to get the client to fill out an "independant operator" questionnaire to help prove they are operating on their own and not as an employee. you will have a hard time getting large companies to do that. 

If you have no WSIB and you get injured at a clients house, you can potentially sue them because OHIP will not cover workplace related Injuries. 

Requiring everyone to have WSIB can even the playing field. However it only works if clients actually ask for proof of it. 



My guy cut his finger last year and I took him to a walk in clinic to get stitches. First thing they asked was if it happened on the job. It took about 15 minutes to stitch his finger and about an hour for the doctor to fill out the paperwork and then another hour for me to fill out the employer related forms. 

The clinic charged WSIB $40. It would have been a lot worse if he was unable to return to work.


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## Greg from K/W (Jan 28, 2010)

*Mandatory Partner WSIB coverage in 2013*

All managers and partners in construction will have to now be covered under WSIB in Ontario.

I think it will hurt business myself but the fact remains that only one partner or manager can apply for exemption now. Here is the new rules from WSIB. 

The Q and A section will be of help maybe.

http://www.wsib.on.ca/en/community/...toid=494b82bd67344310VgnVCM100000469c710aRCRD


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Heck, why should we be the only country where they make up new rules to kill jobs. Sweet, join the club.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Does that mean once i get my company i will have to have it? I mean it is only a percent of what you make so if i dont work i don't pay.


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## Greg from K/W (Jan 28, 2010)

Some how I don't think they care they just want the cash grab I think.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

What a ****ing scam.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

It just means customers are going to pay a little more, and don't laugh to hard, but I really hope they can enforce it and get a few more deadbeat contractors out of the picture.

It's the consumer who's at fault and suffers by hiring these uninsured guys. Chances are if the guy is not buying WSIB he's also not carrying liability insurance, cheats on his HST, does a lot of cash, pays employees without deductions, the list goes on and on. 

Perhaps adding another cross check system deadbeat contractors will either get caught or start to realize you can't be self employed and do work for $20/hr and make a living


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> It just means customers are going to pay a little more, and don't laugh to hard, but I really hope they can enforce it and get a few more deadbeat contractors out of the picture.
> 
> It's the consumer who's at fault and suffers by hiring these uninsured guys. Chances are if the guy is not buying WSIB he's also not carrying liability insurance, cheats on his HST, does a lot of cash, pays employees without deductions, the list goes on and on.
> 
> Perhaps adding another cross check system deadbeat contractors will either get caught or start to realize you can't be self employed and do work for $20/hr and make a living


I here what you're saying Chris but I don't think this will flush out the 'underground' construction economy. In fact, in may just do the opposite, pushing the borderline guys to say f this, I'm doing more cash jobs.

IMO, this is just another cash grab to boost the WSIB revenue that will only hurt the guys already playing by the rules.


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## Greg from K/W (Jan 28, 2010)

Wait till you see what the Ontario College of Trades wants you to pay. I am in the back of my mind thinking no way I am starting another company up. I wouldn't have to pay any WSIB but I may have to the college fees. That will stink too.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

? What's the college fees?


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## Greg from K/W (Jan 28, 2010)

http://www.collegeoftrades.ca/

http://www.theobserver.ca/2012/11/21/trades-college-announces-fees

Those 2 sites should give you lots of reading. Google it too the Home builders associations are up in arms and the labour council of ontario.


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

This college of trades has to be stopped. It's Just another layer of gov oversight that we do not need.

Like the gun registry, 1.7 billion spent on a gun problem we don't have..

Lobby your mp.


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## Greg from K/W (Jan 28, 2010)

I hear what your saying for sure. Google it and check for the news items and you will find news items and check out the construction organization that is fighting it.

http://www.dcnonl.com/article/id50189


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

wtf government. wtf wtf


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## Greg from K/W (Jan 28, 2010)

That's the kicker. They are saying that they are independent but you and I know damn well that the ministry of colleges and apprenticeship is behind it. What a joke.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> It just means customers are going to pay a little more, and don't laugh to hard, but I really hope they can enforce it and get a few more deadbeat contractors out of the picture.
> 
> It's the consumer who's at fault and suffers by hiring these uninsured guys. Chances are if the guy is not buying WSIB he's also not carrying liability insurance, cheats on his HST, does a lot of cash, pays employees without deductions, the list goes on and on.
> 
> Perhaps adding another cross check system deadbeat contractors will either get caught or start to realize you can't be self employed and do work for $20/hr and make a living


Chris you are completely ass-backwards, the more barriers you put to be a ledgit contractor the more the uninsured cheating sector grows.

You are thinking about this like a socialist...


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

You and I have different views on socialism


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> You and I have different views on socialism


Yes, you support government intervention in business and barriers to entry and I do not.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

That's not socialism, that's employing the government to do their job...govern

I would object to this interference if we didn't have a problem and everyone played fair and by the same rules...but they don't, too many guys try and call employees subs, but when they get hurt I still have to pay and not the ******* who's cheating and their is no repercussion for him either. They're fixing that. 

Is there a better way? Yep, but were too big now to start over so implement another cross check system. 

It's like HST, I love it, easier to do my accounting now, it's ridiculously expensive so I don't think cash is as big a thing anymore as everyone wants the input tax credit. As an individual I hate the HST, it's friggin expensive and I don't see the personal value I get out of it.

The government is slowly and finally making tools to cross check and see formulas that everyone is playing by the same rules. If deadbeats weren't trying to beat the system that only I am paying for so it feels some days, then I would object to it as well. But the mere fact that I remit several hundred thousand dollars every year for various taxes and dick head around the corner cheats the system as there was ways to fool it beats them for 50000 less really chaps my ass.

Wanna go for a beer?


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

The major flaw with this mandatory coverage is that a sole proprietor (SP) working directly for a homeowner on a residential site does not have to pay into this coverage. But a SP working on a home office on a residential site does. 

The next project is a commercial job, then he has to pay again. Untill his next job for a HO on a residential site.

So now, the honest guy has got to track all this **** straight and keep records for surely he will be audited and found to be out of compliance at some point....only to pay the fines

Yeah, all the while this time spent on paperwork is time away from the job site. 

Our gov. is a big business. It doesn't like doing small business. It is killing the small business man, death of a thousand cuts style.

Chris, I'll take you up on that beer sometime....


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

And a homeowner would be a damn fool hiring someone without proper coverages, they may be cheaper but picture a guy getting hurt...without WSIB do you not think he's going to try and make a claim against the owners policy?


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

That's always a possibility. And this is why this new law is such a scam.

If the gov. really cared about the homeowner's liability, they would just mandate that all construction workers must carry wsib coverage.

Instead, the gov. says that the sole proprietor working in residential construction directly for the HO doesn't need WSIB coverage. What? To keep costs lower for the HO? To get this passed without hue and cry from the voter?


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## mhilton (Feb 4, 2007)

Chris Johnson said:


> It just means customers are going to pay a little more, and don't laugh to hard, but I really hope they can enforce it and get a few more deadbeat contractors out of the picture.
> 
> It's the consumer who's at fault and suffers by hiring these uninsured guys. Chances are if the guy is not buying WSIB he's also not carrying liability insurance, cheats on his HST, does a lot of cash, pays employees without deductions, the list goes on and on.
> 
> Perhaps adding another cross check system deadbeat contractors will either get caught or start to realize you can't be self employed and do work for $20/hr and make a living


In a perfect world this would be the case,but we don't live in a perfect world. I believe this will drive more people to do cash jobs and is just another way to expand WSIB revenues. 

It's no secret that WSIB is billions of dollars in debt (I think it's at 11 billion) so how do they reduce that debt, by taxing the honest contractor.
Why chase the cheaters when it's a lot easier to charge the contractors that come to their front door by remitting every three months.

I'm a sub in residential framing and all contractors have asked me for a clearance, if I can't provide then no work and I assume it's the same for the guy beside me or across the street.

This does nothing for me but hurt my bottom line


Mark


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I'll agree there is no such thing as a perfect world, as soon as money is involved crooked people find ways to cheat.

Yes WSIB is in debt, all from false reporting and bogus claims, again crooked people.

So if you feel this is unjust, lets pretend your the owner of a company, framing on the roof, you fall off and get seriously hurt, no WSIB coverage, your in the hospital, can't run your business, it gets shut down, no income...what do you do? Oh yea this is Ontario, collect welfare, now you get free prescriptions, free therapy, free this, free that....thanks

So now your saying your bottom line is hurt, why? It's a justified increase in the cost of doing business, now everyone has the same overhead expense and is also including it in their pricing structure. Depending on how you run your business this increase should only add 1% to your bids. I remit monthly to WSIB, I did a trial run this afternoon while completing my November report...I'm happy to say even with January's increase, I personally get the rate group 755, as opposed to me being full pop...my monthly rate will be slightly cheaper.

Will this help the underground economy flourish? Sure it does, part of the general public is stupid enough to think paying cash saves them money, it does today, not in the long run though, first thing that comes to mind is no warranty, if the job has issues, how can you prove ABC contracting did the work, you paid cash. That money you think you saved by paying cash and avoiding tax, well several others have done the same, so next time you ***** about potholes in the street, the line up at the hospital, etc, remember you paid cash to save HST and a portion of that money is used for the "luxuries" we are normally offered in Ontario but got cut short on. Oh yea part of it is for the welfare rolls that you are collecting on because you didn't have WSIB coverage, fell off a roof, your company went belly up and you needed public assistance.

It's a vicious circle, yes I made a worse case scenario and also I make a mockery of our society, but we can't go back to zero unfortunately, so how do we fix what we've got, implement more rules that everyone pays for. The cross checking between HST, payroll remittances and WSIB is going to tighten it up for the cheats, it will drive the underground economy even deeper, those guys will always be there, some will get caught, some wont, and some will decide to get above board and do it right. The underground guys will never ever succeed in life, they may last a bit, but will never achieve anything.


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

In your worst case scenario, when the guy that falls off the roof is a sole-proprietor and had opted out from WSIB coverage because he's legally exempt, who picks up the tab? The new law does not protect him or the HO. 

If they want to make it a level playing field, why is there exemptions for the SP?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

My worse case scenario is under the current rules, anyone can be a contractor, sole prop or corporate and be exempt and work for anyone, the new rules state as you say.

And the way the new rules are, I'll call that the faint hope clause allowing someone to get into the construction field, limiting what they can do without WSIB. 

This really boils down to too many cheats and the new setup is designed to throw up red flags through cross checking of various systems. Is it going to work...hell no, but it's a start. Will it ever be perfect...hell no, will I ever be charged with cheating the system...nope, will some of the other contractors out there? Yup.

I look back to when I was 17 just getting started and not knowing anything. My boss made me an independent contractor just to avoid payroll deductions and WSIB, I got a policy from PennCorp, I believe my policy cost me $110.00...for a year!! I'm sure you've seen those guys running around different job sites, the coverage is a joke unless of course you still live with mom and dad and eat KD everyday, and somehow I doubt it would even cover that now.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> I'll agree there is no such thing as a perfect world, as soon as money is involved crooked people find ways to cheat.
> 
> Yes WSIB is in debt, all from false reporting and bogus claims, again crooked people.
> 
> ...


Chris I bet right now most of us already have insurance coverage for instances like this...as business owners and operators we know the risks involved. We don't need government to force us to do so.

You think that the all powerful wrath of the Canadian government is going to start slapping wrists and crushing those who don't comply leaving nothing but honest business such as yourself to compete on a level playing field. 

Well...it's a nice thought but it's not going to happen. You increase the price of barriers to entry you increase the price of the legitimate product. Customers being price sensitive will be willing to purchase from those with lower prices who don't comply. The 'grey market' of construction grows.

Now all that's left feeding dead prime ministers to the hungry WSIB machine are assholes like us.

I know this doesn't affect you because you pay your salary to your wife and cut yourself a $500 cheque a year and WSIB will be a pretty small %. Yet individuals like myself who don't funnel their funds through someone who doesn't have to be covered will get a nice little chunk peeled off their bottom line.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

On your invoice just place a line that says WSIB fee. If everybody did it then people would get pretty upset and it's possible that the outrage might change the thinking of the gov with their cash grab.

Same thing with us down here with the health care. Just stick a line on every invoice that says healthcare fee. When the people see this maybe they might start to realize the free healthcare is really being paid for by them and not the businesses. The administration has set it up to seem like he is forcing the businesses of the US to take care of the HC system. When in reality there are just going to be price increases on everything to account for it.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Leo G said:


> On your invoice just place a line that says WSIB fee. If everybody did it then people would get pretty upset and it's possible that the outrage might change the thinking of the gov with their cash grab.
> 
> Same thing with us down here with the health care. Just stick a line on every invoice that says healthcare fee. When the people see this maybe they might start to realize the free healthcare is really being paid for by them and not the businesses. The administration has set it up to seem like he is forcing the businesses of the US to take care of the HC system. When in reality there are just going to be price increases on everything to account for it.


I'd have to have a long list of boiler plate line items.

Every piece of electronics in Ontario has to have an "electronics disposal fee" Pretty soon I'l have to hand everyone a second invoice of just fees!


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Hey, I don't support it, this is not my game, I just understand what they are trying to do.

And for the record, I was going to give my wife the raise and keep myself at the same rate of pay next year, with the rate group 755, we will continue to income split and I will be paying WSIB on myself, just at the lower rate as I am not on the tools.

This is going to be another hurdle for the Nick the Kids of this world to get around to become independent contractors. If people were more honourable this system and probably 100 other systems would not be required.

I think they are going to find some out of compliance guys and use them as an example, problem is, Canadian media is much different the US media so chances of us knowing about it are slim to none as they crave over Rob Ford soliciting donations for a charity with City Hall letterhead for $ 3200.00 as opposed to fly by night contractors scamming the system for tens of thousands of dollars.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Leo, you never see it or hear about it...in Ontario I have to pay 5% of the employees wages to the government for Health Care tax. So our free system...it ain't free


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## Wayfarer Doors (Feb 2, 2010)

just got a letter saying this is the case.
I pay around 10% for the rare times I hire someone, so now if I do anything other than residential renovations I have to pay as well.
Since about 90% of my work is residential renos, I think I'll stick to that and avoid the extra expense.
If I land a large job, I may start another company, do it under that name, and pay the 10% I'd have to on my income.


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## Greg from K/W (Jan 28, 2010)

Duplicate Thread guys


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## Greg from K/W (Jan 28, 2010)

Nope its not free we all pay for it one way or another.


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## Weeunc (Dec 17, 2012)

A lot of my friends have done the same thing. It is amazing how more efficient you become. I just need to stop pitting on my work clothes in the morning. I'm quite lucky as I have a workforce that has been with me for almost 20 years. We're just getting old but in terms of quality I can't complain.


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## MARK-YOW (Dec 30, 2012)

*Wsib ??*

Quick hello @ all ! Very interesting conversation going on here.
About me : German immigrant came to Ontario 11 years ago, worked before 17 yrs in aircraft maintenance and could not get a foot in the door here in Ottawa. Had 3 job interviews and been told I am "over qualified"  just a BS that I heard over and over again. Anyway not being stupid I started my own security and low voltage installation company as a sole prop 7 years ago. From the first year at 21 K , I made it finally to this years high of 100 K with a lot of hard work and many many weekends and no day off. Finally I am back on track money wise where I left 11 years ago and now finding more and more that the government is grabbing deeper in my pockets year by year and I am not getting anything for it. I have to mention that I left my home country for the love of my live and not for any other reason. I started my first jobs in a brewery at $ 7.5 /hr after making 145 K a year in Germany which was tough , but I kept focused on finding a way to make more money.
We pay 14 % health care in Germany and from what is left another 30 % of income tax roughly.BUT : If I need an MRI scan , I get it within 3 days and I would gladly pay 14% of my income here for the benefits. AS mentioned before I think our healthcare in ON is embedded in our taxes and we pay ~ $ 750 per person a year if I am correct.

WSIB pays out $ 75tsnd every Minute , that is why they are in such high debt. In Germany you have the 2 options to be under state coverage or select your private coverage , you can not open a company without having a liability insurance which prevents black sheep to join the work force. 
I have been working all my life on the honest path, meaning that we all have to pay a share and contribute to the system we live in.

Any way sorry for my long story , I will come to the point where I absolutely disagree with the WSIB enforcement.
If I am selling material which is calculated together with my labour, WSIB want to take a percentage of my "non labour related" profit and this is completely wrong.
If I sell a server or a cameras or an alarm system and make a profit, why the hell should I pay a percentage on that !?!?

Love to hear your opinions ! :thumbup:

Thanks and a Happy & Safe New Year to all of you.

Take care
Mark


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Why are you paying WSIB on materials?


WSIB is based on wages


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Profit of materials is wages.


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## MARK-YOW (Dec 30, 2012)

Ok how do they differenciate this ? 

Example :
I install 4 IP cameras work with my hands on a ladder etc..2 hrs than I sit 5 hrs in an office on a network setup.
Agreed labour and material $ 5000.
Isn't the WSIB calculated from my gross earnings ? 

Sorry if I misunderstood something after talking to a franco Canadian Lady at WSIB how this would impact me ?! She was talking about 10 % ?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Your right without a corporate veil, but you also have all the perks and write offs to reduce your wages thus reducing your WSIB


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

You don't pay on your $ 5000 invoiced amount, you pay on what you take as a paycheque. 


I believe you will need an accountant more as a sole proprietor then a corporation as your payroll is integrated with you personally.


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## MARK-YOW (Dec 30, 2012)

Guess I found some explanation about the calculation.
http://www.wsib.on.ca/en/community/...VCM100000469c710aRCRD#earnings_of_contractors

*What are adequate records?

The WSIB considers records adequate if they can verify and separately show amounts paid for labour, from materials, equipment and/or installation supplies. The most common adequate record is a receipt of purchase. The WSIB may verify accuracy through an audit.*

:thumbup: OK first comes the Tax man and than come the WSIB man !

Ok so for my $ 5000
I could break down and avoid it 
Labour $ 10 
Material $ 4990 
--------
Insurable WSIB amount would be $ 10:clap:


* The most common adequate record is a receipt of purchase. << That is a joke !
Isnt it up to me how much MY mark up on material is ? How can they make an audit on this ?
*


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## MARK-YOW (Dec 30, 2012)

Chris Johnson said:


> You don't pay on your $ 5000 invoiced amount, you pay on what you take as a paycheque.
> 
> 
> I believe you will need an accountant more as a sole proprietor then a corporation as your payroll is integrated with you personally.



$ 5000 + hst would be my pay cheque from the client !


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Don't forget to deduct for office rent, fuel, vehicle, insurance, cell phone, photocopys, massage parlour visits, etc. etc


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

MARK-YOW said:


> $ 5000 + hst would be my pay cheque from the client !


You need an accountant or bookkeeper to do this for you, I think you are misunderstanding how it works


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## MARK-YOW (Dec 30, 2012)

Chris Johnson said:


> Don't forget to deduct for office rent, fuel, vehicle, insurance, cell phone, photocopys, massage parlour visits, etc. etc


I will walk into the WSIB office soon and get first hand information's.

Thanks !


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

MARK-YOW said:


> I will walk into the WSIB office soon and get first hand information's.
> 
> Thanks !


I would advise against that. Asking them they will not tell you how your entitled to certain benefits and expect payment based on the highest value. Speak to an accountant. You never deal directly with the government...you won't win


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

It's a conundrum with bulk priced installations...don't waste your time asking WSIB talk to an accountant.


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## kyle_dmr (Mar 17, 2009)

Problem is, a lot of accountants don't know a ton about this yet! My accountant knows about the same as me, and trying to find one that has a bit more info is becoming difficult. I think I have a good grasp on what is required from me. And it'll cost me large. Biggest thing is going to be staying on top of the books and not slacking like I usually do.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

kyle_dmr said:


> Problem is, a lot of accountants don't know a ton about this yet! My accountant knows about the same as me, and trying to find one that has a bit more info is becoming difficult. I think I have a good grasp on what is required from me. And it'll cost me large. Biggest thing is going to be staying on top of the books and not slacking like I usually do.


How do you do your book keeping? Keep a journal and then give to the accountant at the end of the year?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

If your willing to incorporate as a company rather than sole proprietor I think you will find it much easier as you are not having to delineate as much, it's easier to see what your pay cheque is on a regular basis.

Personally I think all of you should be corporate, limit your personally liability and corporate tax is dropping to 15% on the first 1/2 mil profit starting in 8.5 hours


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> If your willing to incorporate as a company rather than sole proprietor I think you will find it much easier as you are not having to delineate as much, it's easier to see what your pay cheque is on a regular basis.
> 
> Personally I think all of you should be corporate, limit your personally liability and corporate tax is dropping to 15% on the first 1/2 mil profit starting in 8.5 hours


Does this apply to me... :whistling


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

FramingPro said:


> Does this apply to me... :whistling


Yes because your parents are personally liable for any vandalism you do until your 18 :laughing::laughing:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> Yes because your parents are personally liable for any vandalism you do until your 18 :laughing::laughing:


No wonder N.Grauds Carpentry's vice president (my dad) is always so wound up. :laughing:


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## Weeunc (Dec 17, 2012)

If the government would just stop paying social assistance to able bodied workers we could save a lot of money. The problem with our society is the working class pays for all of the lazy folks who have decided to go on permanent vacation. 
I'm growing very tired trying to find workers when there are 1000's sitting at home that don't want to do physical work. 
The working class is busting their asses paying for these sods and how does the government repay us. They make us feel like crooks by regulating us to death. 
Im a very hands on guy who for 30 years has beat his body to a pulp. Now I'm trying to decide if my body can produce more to pay for this crock of crap or do I finally put my tools down. Oh I forgot I cannot find anyone who wants to work to take up the slack. 
Even if I dedide to stop working the government will be implementing this on us all within the next 5 years anyways. Once they start seeing the flood of money coming in they won't stop at just construction. Even the non working bosses will be paying as well as the residential guys.


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