# Hard earned money on foreign made tools (RANT)



## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

I was at Blowes today looking at jobsite table saws. Somewhere down the road here I'm going to need a new one. The PC model is made in Taiwan (no surprise) The Bosch everyone's favorite made in Taiwan. The DeWalt made in Mexico. Yuk. I recently purchased a top handle worm drive Bosch from a contractors supply Made in America. Yes. I feel like when I buy American, I am doing my small part in helping our people, our economy. Nobody is going to call me from Mexico or Taiwan looking for a new porch. I'm thinking maybe Makita although not made in USA would have to be better made? How about JET? Anyone know where they are made or the level of quality?


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

You're pizzing up the proverbial rope. Even the stuff that's manufactured here is primarily assembled by family members of the folks building those saws in Mexico. It's reality. Is there really anything that is still American made? There's too much environmental impact to manufacture goods here, isn't there?:whistling


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Yeah, I know it. Everything becomes a throwaway. No matter whose name is on it. The landfills become towering mountain ranges filled with imported crap, everything from coffeemakers to patio furniture. How is that sound ecology? Not to mention draining everyones pocket for never ending replacements. I can remember when you bucked up for something of good quality, and you had it for a while. Those days are gone. Until we repatriate our industries we will continue this state of economic declivity. Everyone suffers. I don't mind paying for quality but it just seems that bar has been lowered


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## basswood (Oct 31, 2008)

The largest manufacturer of power tools "made in the USA" is Makita, though the profits go to Japan. I think Milwaukee still makes most of their tools here, though they are now a Chinese-owned company.

Here is a blog about this if you want to do some reading:

http://blogs.toolbarn.com/brianm/2006/04/made-in-usa-now-just-myth.html


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Doesn't this all just SUCK?:sad:

I won't comment further for being banned! :whistling


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

rselectric1 said:


> Doesn't this all just SUCK?:sad:
> 
> I won't comment further for being banned! :whistling


Can you ban yourself? :shifty: :jester:


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## J.C. (Sep 28, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> I was at Blowes today looking at jobsite table saws. Somewhere down the road here I'm going to need a new one. The PC model is made in Taiwan (no surprise) The Bosch everyone's favorite made in Taiwan. The DeWalt made in Mexico. Yuk. I recently purchased a top handle worm drive Bosch from a contractors supply Made in America. Yes. I feel like when I buy American, I am doing my small part in helping our people, our economy. Nobody is going to call me from Mexico or Taiwan looking for a new porch. I'm thinking maybe Makita although not made in USA would have to be better made? How about JET? Anyone know where they are made or the level of quality?


You found a circular saw that is Made in USA? May I ask what the model # is? Any circular saw that I have seen recently, no matter what brand, is made in China. :sad:
For whatever reason, we've decided to sell all of our jobs to the lowest bidders and I guess we won't be happy until we finish selling our country to China. Until our fearless leaders in Washington decide to "grow a set" and say enough is enough and put an end to sh*t, I don't see it getting better anytime soon.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Bosch Model 1678 top handle worm. I just looked at the plate it says Made in USA. Is that a material misrepresentation of the facts? If it is am I entitled to damages? If it was merely assembled in the USA and not made in the USA then to me that constitutes a material misrepresentation of the facts by definition of the word "made" Corporate interests get away with far more than the small business man would even consider. MADE IN CHINA----BROKEN IN USA


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## Erikfsn (Dec 6, 2009)

Personally I like tools that say "Made in Germany"!


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

rselectric1 said:


> Doesn't this all just SUCK?:sad:
> 
> I won't comment further for being banned! :whistling





angus242 said:


> Can you ban yourself? :shifty: :jester:


I can kick him next time he is in the chat room :shifty:


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Leo G said:


> I can kick him next time he is in the chat room :shifty:


Been there-been kicked by Leo!:whistling


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

J.C. said:


> For whatever reason, we've decided to sell all of our jobs to the lowest bidders and I guess we won't be happy until we finish selling our country to China. Until our fearless leaders in Washington decide to "grow a set" and say enough is enough and put an end to sh*t, I don't see it getting better anytime soon.


Um, it's simple supply & demand. We demand a good price so we are supplied with an abundance of China made crap......and we buy it.

If quality was the issue, just look at Festool. They are high quality, superior engineered tools. Do we all buy them? No. Because they cost too much. Unless you want American workers making $3/hour to produce tools here OR you want to pay top dollar for your tools, the trend will continue. 

If a current Milwaukee cir saw was totally built in the USA but cost $300, would you still buy it? Would you buy it over a German built TS-55 at $300?

I'm not getting stinky with you. I believe I'm spitting out some reality. Overall, America doesn't care about China made products...because _we continue to_ buy them. The gubment has nothing to do with that. If they got their greasy hands on the situation, we would either get crappy products built here or couldn't afford the quality ones built here unless we created a whole new class of under-paid, welfare-needing U.S. worker.

I'm just sayin...

...and I don't like it either :furious:


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## J.C. (Sep 28, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> Bosch Model 1678 top handle worm. I just looked at the plate it says Made in USA. Is that a material misrepresentation of the facts? If it is am I entitled to damages? If it was merely assembled in the USA and not made in the USA then to me that constitutes a material misrepresentation of the facts by definition of the word "made" Corporate interests get away with far more than the small business man would even consider. MADE IN CHINA----BROKEN IN USA


I think it may be a discontinued model. I can't find it listed on there web site anywhere. I hope someone can prove me wrong but I don't think there is any such thing as any hand held power tool that is made or assembled here in the US anymore. The only table saw that I know of that is assembled here is a Delta unisaw and the rumor I heard is it's 80% US content. Jet and Powermatic are now owned by Walter Meier and import everything as far as I know.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Only naked people with no shoes, furniture or consumer electronics can talk to me about buying American.

Kowboy


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Yes sir JC I think it maybe a discontinued model. I don't know why that is. There are still a few around here and there. My supply house had 3 left special priced at $170 which is pretty good for a bosch worm drive. It is a top handle model, a little easier on the arm, I like it, I hope it lasts me! I've roached 3 or 4 saws in the past 10 years doing rehabs and additions. Some of them are fixable sure but if I have to take them in I'm spending half as much as a new one and from my experience the repairs dont last for ****.


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## jiffy (Oct 21, 2007)

But in this situation Bosch is a German company and they reap most of the rewards from your purchase regardless of where it was manufactured.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Basswood, that was a good blog link, summed it up pretty good. The box stores are to be avoided for tools as they have developed the Wal-Mart business model---Big Daddy names the price of the goods, if you can't deliver you're out. The tool companies agree because they don't want to lose the volume. Supply houses can do the same thing purchase the lower price point goods and sell them at a premium so it pays to check. Drywall is a good example, compare a sheet of goods you get from the box store with a sheet from the supply house, you'll find that the box store variety is lighter. Less dense. 2nd's. How many shade tree contractors are aware of this? Weekend warriors/Homeowners don't know and probably don't care.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Jiffy your point is taken too. I am just looking for the best quality I can get for the money. If Mexico or China would step up their game on QC then maybe, just maybe, but the point is moot as others have pointed out. American tool companies are gone, just like American made anything, which is a whole other thread delving into social and political things. Protectionism is not a workable trade model in a global economy. You can't put the Genie back in the bottle.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

If they stepped up the game on QC then you would be paying more for the tools too.


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## DKnafo (Feb 1, 2009)

Where the tools are made has nothing to do with quality. The tools are built to the companies spec.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Um, it's simple supply & demand. We demand a good price so we are supplied with an abundance of China made crap......and we buy it.
> 
> If quality was the issue, just look at Festool. They are high quality, superior engineered tools. Do we all buy them? No. Because they cost too much. Unless you want American workers making $3/hour to produce tools here OR you want to pay top dollar for your tools, the trend will continue.
> 
> ...


Exactly. The bulk of the US population bought this on them selfs. They earnt good money and spent it like there was no tomorrow and borrowed even more. they wanted cheaper and cheaper as money got tight and then the same people who built these tools for a good wage lost their jobs because of the production being sourced to china to feed the hunger for cheaper products. 
If I could buy a good quality power tool made in the US then I would for sure but most people don't give a dam and buy the cheapest they can find.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

angus242 said:


> Um, it's simple supply & demand. We demand a good price so we are supplied with an abundance of China made crap......and we buy it.
> 
> If quality was the issue, just look at Festool. They are high quality, superior engineered tools. Do we all buy them? No. Because they cost too much. Unless you want American workers making $3/hour to produce tools here OR you want to pay top dollar for your tools, the trend will continue.
> 
> ...


Angus, that makes far too much sense.
Ergo it has no place in this thread....

Besides not wanting to pay too much.
Americans don't want to think
too much.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Yea what's the big deal right? People have excepted the foreign made goods. Right? I think it is serious stuff. Be in denial all you want but when America runs out of jobs, eventually contractors will run out of customers. Economics 101-- You have to produce something tangible to barter, trade or otherwise stay in the game. Medicine and Biotech notwithstanding, we have become a nation of casinos, bowling alleys and hamburger joints. Other than Ford we have lost our automobile industry so I see what the legal scholars call "a succession to extinction" or what the common man refers to as "the backdoor to hell"


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Irishslave said:


> Yea what's the big deal right? People have excepted the foreign made goods. Right? I think it is serious stuff. Be in denial all you want but when America runs out of jobs, eventually contractors will run out of customers. Economics 101-- You have to produce something tangible to barter, trade or otherwise stay in the game. Medicine and Biotech notwithstanding, we have become a nation of casinos, bowling alleys and hamburger joints. Other than Ford we have lost our automobile industry so I see what the legal scholars call "a succession to extinction" or what the common man refers to as "the backdoor to hell"


So start a tool company.
All of the production is gone.
It isn't coming back.
Would you work in a factory 
for $5 an hour?
No one else here can do that either.


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

The Chinese can and will make anything they are contracted to make.
The industrial capabilities of Taiwan are among the best in the world and could make tools as good or better than Festool if asked.
The corporations are the one spec'ing what is made and they have created an economy that is driven by cheap prices and disposable products, it's in their best interest to keep it this way.
Like Angus, BBC and the others have said it is *our choices* that have got us to this point!


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

bconley said:


> The Chinese can and will make anything they are contracted to make.
> The industrial capabilities of Taiwan are among the best in the world and could make tools as good or better than Festool if asked.
> The corporations are the one spec'ing what is made and they have created an economy that is driven by cheap prices and disposable products, it's in their best interest to keep it this way.
> Like Angus, BBC and the other have said it is *our choices* that have got us to this point!


 That doesn't mean I have to like it though, which is why I labeled the thread with "RANT". We all complain about the lowball bidders who offer s**t quality it's the same thing. I like higher standards. Everyone likes cheap price. The business who can provide both would almost certainly succeed in any economy. But the reality is cheap price usually means inferior product. Do I hear generic, plain label remodeling? Have the Germans cornered the market on top quality? They have to import almost all raw materials because as far as I know all they have is coal. This means they are more disciplined when it comes to keeping a handle on thier manufacturing base and it most certainly comes at a price:notworthy


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

When buying quality stuff:

I support local/national when local offers a product comparable to the best.

I have no problems giving my money to the guys who can make the best tool.
If it's made in Canada, USA, Japan, Germany, England, Italy, Czech, or whatever.

If they make the best, I'll support them. If something made in North America was the best I'd rather buy that, but it's not often the case.

For cheap stuff... doesn't matter where you buy it or where it's from :laughing:


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

Maybe this economy "reset" will change the way we value quality.
If the money is hard to come by we will want what we purchase to last.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

bconley said:


> Maybe this economy "reset" will change the way we value quality.
> If the money is hard to come by we will want what we purchase to last.


Let's hope it does.


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

Where it is made, is the LAST thing I look at...if I even look at it.


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## iHandy (Oct 10, 2007)

*middle ground*



angus242 said:


> Um, it's simple supply & demand. We demand a good price so we are supplied with an abundance of China made crap......and we buy it.
> 
> If quality was the issue, just look at Festool. They are high quality, superior engineered tools. Do we all buy them? No. Because they cost too much. Unless you want American workers making $3/hour to produce tools here OR you want to pay top dollar for your tools, the trend will continue.
> 
> ...



I believe there's room for a middle ground. The market for high end tools is still in place and the market for lower end foreign made tools has grown. The problem I see is the transition of good tools from being produced in the west to low labour cost parts of the world.

So, with respect to good tools that used to be made in the west such as Bosch, Milwaulkee, etcetera:

This shift is not because buyers aren't willing to pay for good tools. This production shift is solely motivated by corporate greed. 

The prices of good tools has neither gone up or down appreciably since they became manufactured in low cost centres. I don't believe that they could not continue to be produce in the west at the prices asked.

When good brand tools are no longer produced in the west, do the prices drop to reflect the lower production costs? - not in my experience.

These manufacturing production shifts were made by profitable companies.

I would rather my dollars go towards workers who get paid a decent wage, have a safe and healthy work environment. I'm not so interested in just giving an even bigger profit margin to already decently profitable companies.

Profits yes. Profiteering no.

Cheers


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

TBFGhost said:


> Where it is made, is the LAST thing I look at...if I even look at it.



Really?

That is one of the first things I research.

Every place makes a good product and a bad product as well.

It is really up to the person in charge of QC to insure a product meets their standards, 

Unfortunately, some company's have pretty poor standards.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

I just checked a few of my tools, my cordless drill was made in Lechtenstien, as was my sawzall, my impact driver was made in Germany, and my small rotary hammer was made in Romania. They are all the same brand.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

iHandy said:


> I would rather my dollars go towards workers who get paid a decent wage, have a safe and healthy work environment. I'm not so interested in just giving an even bigger profit margin to already decently profitable companies.


Problem with that, you don't have much of a choice then. It would be easier to name tools that aren't made in China than it is to name the ones that are. :sad:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I just checked a few of my tools, my cordless drill was made in Lechtenstien, as was my sawzall, my impact driver was made in Germany, and my small rotary hammer was made in Romania. They are all the same brand.


Most of mine come from Wendlingen, Germany.


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

......I just bought a 13" Ryobi planer in a pinch....Made in China....seems to work well...


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

The day someone explains to me why some of my German/Swiss stuff broke well before my Chinese stuff... is the day I check where it is made.

The parts inside are all from different countries anyway, for the most part I don't care if Chinese fingers or American fingers put my multicultural components together.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Inner10 said:


> The day someone explains to me why some of my German/Swiss stuff broke well before my Chinese stuff... is the day I check where it is made.
> 
> The parts inside are all from different countries anyway, for the most part I don't care if Chinese fingers or American fingers put my multicultural components together.


The parts inside my German tools were made at the same place the tool was assembled.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Remember what happened to Joseph Smith.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

neolitic said:


> Remember what happened to Joseph Smith.


Was he the guy that translated the golden tablets and came up with the Mormon religion?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Was he the guy that translated the golden tablets and came up with the Mormon religion?



and thought it was a _good _idea to have a lot of wives


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

angus242 said:


> and thought it was a _good _idea to have a lot of wives


The lot of wives thing is good, if you can control them.

Something like friday night KY wrestling would help them get any aggressions out and probably turn into some real fun the rest of the night.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> The lot of wives thing is good, if you can control them.


That's why _girlfriends_ would have been a better plan.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

If you want to talk girlfriends or wives, maybe foreign made is the way to go, at least until they go to the beauty shop and start talking to the American women


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## J.C. (Sep 28, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Um, it's simple supply & demand. We demand a good price so we are supplied with an abundance of China made crap......and we buy it.
> 
> If quality was the issue, just look at Festool. They are high quality, superior engineered tools. Do we all buy them? No. Because they cost too much. Unless you want American workers making $3/hour to produce tools here OR you want to pay top dollar for your tools, the trend will continue.
> 
> ...


I'll agree that consumers wanting things cheaper is part of the reason things are getting shipped overseas but is far from the only reason. As iHandy stated, "corporate greed" is another very good reason. Back in the early 70's, the last time the US had a trade surplus, CEO's salary's were only 30 times that of the average US worker. Today the number is well over 300 times more than the average US worker. Also, the fact the the US government seems to prefer when we ship manufacturing jobs overseas isn't helping anything. 
The whole notion that shipping manufacturing to cheap labor countries will lead to vastly cheaper products for the US consumer is just about nonsense. After we shipped our entire clothing industry overseas, do you know what the average price drop was for the American consumer? It was something like a 1.5% drop. The manufacturer and retailer pocketed the rest. I buy New Balance shoes made in the USA and they aren't any more expensive than a comparable pair of Nike shoes made in Thailand. I buy jeans and shirts from All American Clothing and they aren't any more expensive than a pair of Levi's made in Cambodia and they're better quality. 

I'm not a big fan of government getting involved in everything but putting tariffs on imports when we get flooded with cheap junk from overseas is just about the only way it's going to stop. I'm not against foreign competition and actually welcome competition from companys like Festool. Without foreign competition we end up producing junk, like cars built here in the 70's and 80's. 

As for buying a $300 Milwaukee circular saw that was made here, no, I wouldn't buy it. Milwaukee can build their tools where ever they want and sell it for whatever price they want, I'll never buy another Milwaukee since Milwaukee is now Chinese owned. I do think if Black and Decker ever decided to get their head out of the sand, they could built something just as good as Festool here in the US for the same price and I'd buy it in a heart beat.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> The parts inside my German tools were made at the same place the tool was assembled.


Not a chance.

They cast and machine all their own gears and widgets? Make all their own battery cells? Wires, connectors, speed controllers, bla bla bla.


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