# I almost walked off the job today



## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

I started an exterior job today. While I was bidding the job the customer had a list of questions. One was about the payment milestones. They wanted one payment at the half way point and the remainder upon completion. I said no, but I will collect the first payment at the start of the job rather than two weeks prior.

Yesterday on the phone I reminded them of the payment. Today the customer was at the job and was saying she was leaving. I mentioned the payment. She said her checkbook was inside. We talked about a few other things. She went inside. I walked around the corner ten minutes later. She had left. Looked at me seat and dash. Nothing. 

As this was unfolding I was getting rolling with installing the customer provided .042 siding over framing that was all over the place. It was making things take forever and looking terrible. On top of this there is garbage covering the job sight. I was about to load every thing up and leave. Not just untill I got the payment but for good. My worker talked me out of it. 

My questions is. If I would have walked am I legally at risk. I stayed because of reputation. That aside. Am I obligated to do the job. I sent them the proposal via email. It is not signed by me. I do have a signed copy from them. Despite me having signed nothing, it is clear we have an agreement. Having said that, part of the agreement involves me getting paid at the start.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Frank, 

It totally depends on what your contract says about "performance" (legal term as you know) and other things too.

If there was no deposit, and she treated you this way then I would just walk. If you do, send an intent to lien letter within 60 days of today to retain your rights for the work you did today.

Again, it depends on if your contract has any teeth so I can't give you more than that.


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

If the deal is you get paid before work starts, then technically you don't have to start work until you get paid. 

So, where do you stand now? You did the day of work.. did you see her when she came home? What are you going to say to her tomorrow morning?

For my first time customers, if they don't give me the down payment when we sign the contract, then they never get a spot in the schedule.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

Are you a little paranoid about something? I have never got any money before I started a job.You better just leave if you are worried about getting paid before you even start.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

knucklehead said:


> Are you a little paranoid about something? I have never got any money before I started a job.You better just leave if you are worried about getting paid before you even start.


Never?

If I am providing any materials, I will get a deposit prior to starting most times.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

I want a small deposit with contract acceptance. Another at start of work/material delivery and then milestone payments. All spelled out clearly in the payment schedule of my contract. I've never had any issues.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

No I don't think I ever have. Now you are making me think. this is going to be bothering me now...................
I don't think so.


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## Gatorgrizz27 (Nov 1, 2015)

I typically get at least a materials deposit up front, especially if it is a new customer. Even if they have good intentions, they can get fired, go to jail, pass away, etc, during the course of the job. I can handle not getting paid for my work for awhile but getting stiffed with a bill for materials isn't going to happen. 

If it was new construction and you didn't remove any siding to replace it, she doesn't want to pay, and it is going to be a terrible job, I'd be tempted to walk off too. I don't see them doing anything from a legal standpoint to you. If I demo a job, I'm going to finish it, no matter what. If they even bother to call, I'd tell them you'll be back when the check is ready. 

People that want to haggle about prices (more than just asking what can be done to bring the price closer to their budget), typically aren't worth working for. She probably doesn't have the money now, and either thinks she will or is getting another bank check when she told you she could pay, and will just avoid you until then, if she pays at all. 

I don't collect the final check until the customer has had a chance to inspect the job and make sure they are satisfied with it.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

With new clients I'll never start a job without payment. It's just the way it is. It's called skin in the game.

As I get to know the client I may do work for them without a down payment. Unless it's something that requires a lot of materials and I don't feel like being the bank.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

knucklehead said:


> Are you a little paranoid about something? I have never got any money before I started a job.You better just leave if you are worried about getting paid before you even start.


I honestly don't think they will burn me. They were referral to me by three separate people who don't know each other. All the other guys working on the inside of the house are local. If they don't intend to pay their people they are sure going about finding them in a way that will make sure the whole town knows. It's just a matter of general disrespect. If I asked someone to change their terms, I would make sure to be on the ball from there on. 

Having to clean the job sight to get started was frustrating. Then I had to take extra time to try to make cheap material look nice added on. Leaving without giving me a check was a nail in the coffin. 

I have peopled pay upfront for two reasons. I want to know they know how to operate a checkbook. I also think having a large final payment is begging a customer to find things to object to at the end of the project to try to delay or avoid getting squared away. Possibly intentionally but more likely subconsciously. During the project they are excited and things are rolling. After the work is done writing checks isn't leading to more excitement. Just my theory. 

I also think it's regional. The closer you get to big cities the more likely people are to pull something funny. In rural areas people will tell you what a bad job they think you did while they walk to get their check book. Not paying isn't even an option.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

If she gave a me a check tomorrow morning, I'd tell my helper I'd be right back and go cash the check.

Smells like fish to me.

You don't tell someone you are going in to get the money and then leave.

No check tomorrow morning.....see ya.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

I almost always get money upfront unless it's just a day of repairs for a past customer. To me, the real red flag is that the payment was agreed upon and then confirmed twice. She MAY have forgotten about it but every time I get in a situation where the customer is "forgetting" about paying me right after a request is made, there are money issues throughout the job.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Gatorgrizz27 said:


> I typically get at least a materials deposit up front, especially if it is a new customer. Even if they have good intentions, they can get fired, go to jail, pass away, etc, during the course of the job. I can handle not getting paid for my work for awhile but getting stiffed with a bill for materials isn't going to happen.
> 
> If it was new construction and you didn't remove any siding to replace it, she doesn't want to pay, and it is going to be a terrible job, I'd be tempted to walk off too. I don't see them doing anything from a legal standpoint to you. If I demo a job, I'm going to finish it, no matter what. If they even bother to call, I'd tell them you'll be back when the check is ready.
> 
> ...


The reason they wanted to change to paying 50 at the half way and 50 at the final was because its a labor only proposal. I explained that I still had plenty of cost. Overhead, manpower and a lift. I usually send a bill out for a job start three weeks out. If i have't been paid within a week of the start it gives me plenty of time to move things in the scheduled. When the crew and equipment is there its rough to leave untill getting paid. Doing so is going to cause a lot of wasted time. 

The good news is I have already come up with new language for any time anyone asks me to change my process for any reason. 

Customer: Can we change the proposal terms of ______ to _______

Me: No, any time I have changed those terms I have come to regret it


It's a polite way to say no, I do what I do for a reason and you are reminding me of my past bad customers. Now shape up or lets move on.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

I have also decided that I am going to have a talk with her about the material and structure tomorrow. I usually avoid telling people where their eyeballs would go if they knew what they where looking at. I think part of my fear in all of this is that they will try to hold out payment because the siding looks wavy. I need to get the thin siding on a wavy building conversation out of the way early and while I can put the six foot level on the wall to show them the common 1/2" difference back and forth within feet.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

FrankSmith said:


> I started an exterior job today. While I was bidding the job the customer had a list of questions. One was about the payment milestones. They wanted one payment at the half way point and the remainder upon completion. I said no, but I will collect the first payment at the start of the job rather than two weeks prior.
> 
> Yesterday on the phone I reminded them of the payment. Today the customer was at the job and was saying she was leaving. I mentioned the payment. She said her checkbook was inside. We talked about a few other things. She went inside. I walked around the corner ten minutes later. She had left. Looked at me seat and dash. Nothing.
> 
> ...


You may show up tomorrow and have a check waiting for you, but I wouldn't start work again until you receive the payment... she not only lied to you in saying she was going in to get the check, but skipped out and certainly didn't give you a call to say _*"Oops, sorry, I forget to give you the check and I'll have it for you when I return or first thing in the morning"*_... there's simply no excuse for that...

I'd also have a conversation about expectations going forward so things are crystal clear... you have every reason too and none not too...


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

You guys have been very discouraging. I better get to bed. I might need to be well rested for a busy morning of loading ladders and planks.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

FrankSmith said:


> You guys have been very discouraging. I better get to bed. I might need to be well rested for a busy morning of loading ladders and planks.


Eh... you'll probably show up to a check...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

In 14 years of business I've never taken money before a job and never been burned. I think it's very important when you have the little talk at the contract signing they see how serious you are about the legal mumble jumble. It keeps them honest.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

!!!!!!
I'm tearing out my hair right now?! They lied to you about complying with the terms of your contract! They are going to screw you! Period. They have already said so in big bold letters by their actions.

Your helper just didn't want to get sent home with out pay.

And by the way. Contract 101 is offer acceptance consideration. You offered. She accepted but failed to provide consideration. There is NO contract. She is in breach.

And by the way. Don't you dare talk to them about the wavy siding. They don't care now (they are just trying to unload the property). But if you clue them into what your weakness is they will definitely use it against you.

Oh, and all you badasses that don't take deposits are in contravention of contractor talk rule # 3. #1 have a contract #2 trust your gut #3 keep the money in front of the work! How many times over the last decade have we seen guys get strung out 10k 50k 500k because they just couldn't accept that the money was never coming. 

Finally, just had a similar sitch two weeks ago. Show up for a job. Get deposit. Finish job. "Oh yeah I'll go get my checkbook." Twenty minutes goes by. "Okay see you guys later! Anything else you need?" me: "Uh yeah. You need to pay me." He was a little peaved but I've learned you can't be a puffy when it comes to money. Speak or get run over.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Metro M & L said:


> Oh, and all you badasses that don't take deposits are in contravention of contractor talk rule # 3. #1 have a contract #2 trust your gut *#3 keep the money in front of the work! How many times over the last decade have we seen guys get strung out 10k 50k 500k *because they just couldn't accept that the money was never coming.





Metro M & L said:


> _*"A smart man learns from his mistakes; a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."*_


:clap: :clap: :clap:​

If you want to be the customers bank, go into the banking business... 
Knowing what FrankSmith knows now, would it be wise _*not *_to get money?

While every business can operate as they see fit, all it takes is one job you've collected no money on to go south and you're spending potentially the next 5-20 jobs (depending on what you do) making it up to bring things back to par... for some stupid reason, suppliers, employees, etc. still expect to be paid even if a job does go south or customer doesn't pay...

Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't...


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Except in CA where you can't have more money then job completed.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Trust your gut. You're the only one with first hand experience as to how to deal with this client.

I always get materials paid up front or collect some money if it's going to be a prolonged job. Most of our jobs are in & out in 3-6 days, so unless my gut starts acting up, I collect a check while the last coat of varnish is drying, letting them know if there's any issues when it dries, don't hesitate to call.

Most of my clientele is word of mouth or repeaat customers.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

I agree with trusting your gut. Today I will be taking my first deposit ever for a job. It's a commercial job (custom gutter and color) and the owner of the building has been really bad at returning calls and seems to have his head up his ass. 

Our typical job is only a few hours and material represents a small fraction of total so paid in full upon completion is how I usually roll. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

So how did it go today Frank?


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

heavy_d said:


> So how did it go today Frank?


We were there working for a few hours before the customer came. When they got they did miscellaneous things including talking to other workers. The drywall sub was there getting his trailer and the customer got his check book out to pay him his final. 

At this moment I knew it was go time. I watched there transaction. He then turned to me and said "you want money too?". I said "well yeah". He gave me a check and was very pleasant. I talked to him and his wife about the siding thickness and building. They said they knew the building wasn't perfect and that it would be like that. They also said they thought what I had done was looking great. 

We parted ways and work continued.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

40/40/20 is how i do it..i don't care what anyone says..


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Tom Struble said:


> 40/40/20 is how i do it..i don't care what anyone says..


At what milestones do you collect 2nd and last payments ? Time or progress?

Some jobs are front end heavy with material such as kitchens, may people balk at paying a high percentage up front with nothing to show for it. 

That is how Rutt Cabinets bankruptcy caused many issues. Many people got the shaft even after Viking took over.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

40 deposit/40 1/2 done/balance on comp


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Big jobs, ie:kitchens

50% down
25% after 2 weeks
20% on delivery
5% on _substantial_ completion.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Deposits up here are limited by law to 25%....


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Mine is not a deposit. I don't take deposits. A deposit is something that is used to hold your place in line for a job. I only take money when I start the job. So when you write me a check you know I have started on your project. In a kitchen there is about 1 week delay in the true start because I have to wait for deliver of materials.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Mine is not a deposit. I don't take deposits. A deposit is something that is used to hold your place in line for a job. I only take money when I start the job. So when you write me a check you know I have started on your project. In a kitchen there is about 1 week delay in the true start because I have to wait for deliver of materials.


OK, first payment by contract, then. I'll correct it here - Maine is 33% by law.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

If we order a steel package for a building, then the deposit is 30%, and no deposit, no order, and no spot on the calendar. Same for ICF homes I build. I do not take a deposit for anything except the first order of material, and that places the client on the schedule and confirms the job. If anyone cancels, then they still have a steel package or a load of ICF's, just nothing else. Hasn't happened yet. 

On an ICF home, they pay for materials ordered, and we do the site and foundations, and typically the slab, and they they pay at this stage. Then the walls and roof, and usually to dry in, and then they pay again. My subs get paid upon stage of completion, and if I have a fixed fee build, I have a pay schedule as well. The final 1/4 of my fee is due when the client takes over or turns the key in the lock...or other words, the CO.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I usually take a material down and then on day of start a percentage of labor. I have even gotten to where I take a down for something as small as an IGU. If I don't, I end up with a stack of IGU's that people suddenly don't think is important enough to fix.

I have never had an issue from anybody with this way of doing things. I did used to take both material and labor at the signing, but it got to where I would be sitting on the money for two or three weeks waiting for windows, or siding, etc., which as a one man show tends to be tough to hang on to. So I changed it and it makes things run smoother and cashflow easier. Especially if the start of the job isn't butter smooth.

On the wavy siding, don't you usually just add lathe to fir it out smooth, or at least smoothish?


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

VinylHanger said:


> On the wavy siding, don't you usually just add lathe to fir it out smooth, or at least smoothish?


You can pad out some of it. The trouble on this project is that there are huge wide open walls with a lot of variation. It doesn't look as bad as a new subdivisions siding, but it is considerably waiver than what I would like. I would not have even talked to them about it usually. I just had to have the conversation while the thin siding was in a pile on the ground not on the wall


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

FrankSmith said:


> We were there working for a few hours before the customer came. When they got they did miscellaneous things including talking to other workers. The drywall sub was there getting his trailer and the customer got his check book out to pay him his final.
> 
> At this moment I knew it was go time. I watched there transaction. He then turned to me and said "you want money too?". I said "well yeah". He gave me a check and was very pleasant. I talked to him and his wife about the siding thickness and building. They said they knew the building wasn't perfect and that it would be like that. They also said they thought what I had done was looking great.
> 
> We parted ways and work continued.


Never been happier to be wrong. Hope it all turns out smooth.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Frank, I would have felt like you . 

That was pretty close to the edge there, and yes, it was breach of contract on their part right at the start.

Peoples' trust issues make them hard to trust.

I had one a while back, the homeowner hired me, then turned the pay responsibility over to the homebuilder ...I said no, and walked right out.

The main thing about your situation is having started, and getting blamed for damage or creating a problem .


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## barry1219 (Oct 8, 2011)

Almost everything I do requiring a project of enough size to require draws is permitted. Which makes it very easy to tie my payments to inspections passed. I.E:
1) 10% to sign contract and submit for permit.
2) 25-40% when permit is issued. Depending on type of permit. Remodel is 25%..windows, doors, slab is 40% etc
3) 25-40% when ready for finals..not passed but ready.
4) 10-25% when completed and all finals are passed.

this what works for me..I like it..clear expectations of what is halfway or almost done..etc..


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

In CA the law limits how much we can get as a deposit. In my experience most people don't have any problems. I've never had an issue and guys I've worked for haven't had an issue either.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

In 14 years of business I've never been burned by a HO and I go by the letter of the law. I've found that most often when a contractor gets burned by a HO it's usually thier own fault.


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