# Home Depot strikes again



## Humble Abode (Mar 19, 2005)

Speedy Petey said:


> Huges stores buy HUGE quantities, and NOT the exact same material as other stores. They force manufacturers to sell to them at lower prices. This is not a mom & pop store's fault.


Don't forget forcing them to manufacture them at a lower quality standards. This is how DeWalt and other tool manufacturers are being forced to 'adapt.'


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## Humble Abode (Mar 19, 2005)

ruskent said:


> I do not know if some of you guys are just against capitlism or just for socialism?
> 
> Matt


I'm a social socialist and a fiscal capatalist. lol


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Hey,

*Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart - * 

They all started out as *one * store. Just like Mom and Pop did, in fact they were Mom and Pop, just younger before Mom & Pop grew older and lost the spirit that helped them put that open sign in the window on their first day of business way, way back when mom and pop were two young kids just married and starting out.

The difference is based on the reason America is GREAT! - the difference is that if you dream big and have drive nothing can stop you in America. Each of those single stores grew into the companies you know as Walmart, Home Depot and Lowes because America allows those who want to reach for the stars the opportunity to do so. Each of those stores had somebody with a vision and the drive to work hard and take it to the next level.

Should this opportunity be taken away because mom & pop don't have the drive, the ability to compete on that level? Should the government subsidize the mom and pops rent or put a surcharge on the big boys products to keep what some would call an 'even playing field' but I would call welfare to mom & pop just because they are found lacking the ability needed to be in business *TODAY * instead of measuring what was needed to be in business *15 years ago*?

I say no way, business is an evolution. The only constant is that everything will not remain constant. Adapt and evolve, stay on top of your game, be ready to throw away what you used 5 years ago to accept what is working today.

Nobody has a RIGHT to be in business today just because you were in business 2 years ago. Businesses only deserves to be in business if the customers keep you in business. Business is so true and pure until others want to step in and subsidize the lacking. Supply the customer what he wants and the customer will give you your RIGHTs to be in business, don't supply him and your competitor does and you go out of business. Simple as that.

It's a harsh reality, but it is REALITY. Everything else is just people feeling sorry for somebody else who can't compete.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Subsidies, what a great idea! They can join the farmers, airlines, Chrysler, AmTrak and a host of others.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Don't forget farmers too. 

Let it lie fallow and become a rich fellow.


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

Capitalism means those who are good at making money are better than those who are not. That's it. For some reason, those who are able to make the most money reap all the rewards. Not those who work hard and exhibit good morals. It's usually the most devious personalities that rise to the top in capitalism because they don't give two ********************s about mom and pop, or anyone else for that matter. They trample everything in sight just to reach the brass ring. The almighty dollar reigns supreme. Mom and pop make their money like good little capitalists should or sit down and STFU?? Mom and pop are insignificant because THEY failed to make money, or adapt, or whatever? Must not be mom and pop to anybody here or the stories would sound a lot different I'm sure. Screw mom and pop, they shoulda made millions while they had a chance and spit on all the peasants.......err citizens....


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Here's the thing AA - which comes first the chicken or the egg?

That's what it comes down to.

You say that mom and pop get screwed because they aren't good at making money.

But its the chicken and the egg again.

What does not good at making money mean? - It means they don't physically get a customer to hand over their hard earned money to them for something they want that mom and pop has to sell often enough to 'make money'

Why is that? Is it because mom and pop aren't well liked? Because they are dems or rebs? Because of what car they drive what church they go to?

No its none of that, it is siimply because - now here is where it gets really tricky -

because - people like me, you and everybody else CHOOSE to shop elsewhere instead of poor mom and pop.

Do you see the difference, it isn't mom and pop who are bad at making money - (chicken or the egg)

It's me, you and everybody esle who refuses to hand over out hard earned money to them frequently enough. We choose to hand over our money elsewhere where we get more for less.

So really unless you are able to change the vast majority of our population to not seek out a lower price on commodities mom and pop have no chance, because they aren't fighting Walmart, Home Depot or Lowes, they are fighting the basic and fundamental desire of the buying public to get more for their money.

Now with all that said and understood then, if you can't convince the public to spend more for less what is the alternative? 

THERE'S ONLY ONE, you can't bring the mountain to Mohamad, it works the other way around. Mom and pop either have to compete in the market that exists today or go out of business. The market that existed in the 1950s, or 1970, or 1993 or 2004 doesn't exist today. That's all it is, it isn't a conspiracy, it's reality.


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## pauls painting (Mar 10, 2005)

went to hd today to get paint they only had half of what i wanted so sent me to another hd 33 miles away to get the rest guess what they only had half of the half the other store had .... they %^&^


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

pauls painting said:


> went to hd today to get paint they only had half of what i wanted so sent me to another hd 33 miles away to get the rest guess what they only had half of the half the other store had .... they %^&^


It's not unusual at all for me to have to run to 3 HD/Lowe's stores to get all of the 10 or 12 items I need, - - luckily, I don't have to go quite as far as you.

It seems the more of these stores that 'pop up', - - the less each and every one of them 'stock'.


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

pauls painting said:


> went to hd today to get paint they only had half of what i wanted so sent me to another hd 33 miles away to get the rest guess what they only had half of the half the other store had .... they %^&^


I can see buying hammers, nails, and wood, etc. You actually buy PAINT from there and use it on your professional projects, though?


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

That is the other thing with those POS stores. How many do they think they need in a given area????? I mean on Long Island you can stand in front of one and hit the next one with a rock. This is truly pathetic. They are in competition with themselves!

In my area we have a Lowes and a HD within literally 1/10 of a mile of each other.

I hope all you fans of these stores are not the ones waving the American flag and spouting "Buy American". We are selling out to China and these stores, especially wally's fiasco, are the main reasons. They will not buy items for a reasonable price so manufacturers are forced to go out of the country to be able to afford to stay in business.


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

"I hope all you fans of these stores are not the ones waving the American flag and spouting "Buy American". We are selling out to China and these stores, especially wally's fiasco, are the main reasons. They will not buy items for a reasonable price so manufacturers are forced to go out of the country to be able to afford to stay in business."


Outsorcing is good for the economy. 

Matt


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Try and buy 100% American and let me know how far you get.

Is everybody stuck in the 50's mentality? We are GLOBAL now.


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## Richard Kaller (Aug 31, 2005)

Mike,

You are right about adapting.

We have warned for over ten years that Home Depot will eat the lunch of the small contractor just like the supermarket ate the lunch of the corner grocery store…if contractors do not learn how adapt and compete, or grow larger through mergers, acquisitions or networking with other contractors.

Many small contractors initially laughed at the idea Home Depot could take their customers just like the local grocery store owner initially laughed when they thought their local customers would not drive to the supermarket.

My guess is GMW’s company simply failed to adapt and just continued with the business model that was initially successful and took them to 14 stores. That failure is the lack of adapting to a changing market. That is a leadership and management error. That is not Home Depot’s fault.

Actually Home Depot is rather easy to beat. This business model they use will usually will not produce the same quality of work and service of a locally owned company. 

Their sales approach is extremely weak but the overabundance of leads generated by their stores still generates a large volume of sales. 

The people running Home Depot are smart. Eventually they will learn to compete on quality and service. The independent contractor needs to stay nimble and find market niches where Home Depot won’t compete, or become part of a larger organization that can compete with Home Depot head-to-head.

Home Depots future growth is dependent upon them becoming a larger and larger "install it for you" contractor as that market takes over "Do It Yourself." The baby boomers are getting too old for "Do It Yourself."

Richard Kaller


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

AAPaint said:


> I can see buying hammers, nails, and wood, etc. You actually buy PAINT from there and use it on your professional projects, though?


I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to say anything. I figure it's one thing for a guy like me to buy a few gallons of paint there, but you pro painters????


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

AAPaint said:


> I can see buying hammers, nails, and wood, etc. You actually buy PAINT from there and use it on your professional projects, though?


Word. :bangin:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Richard Kaller said:


> My guess is GMW’s company simply failed to adapt and just continued with the business model that was initially successful and took them to 14 stores. That failure is the lack of adapting to a changing market. That is a leadership and management error. That is not Home Depot’s fault.Richard Kaller


Yep, anybody with 14 stores is really big in my book, they are bigger than I would guess 90% of the rest of the registred businesses in America. They were on the cusp of something but for whatever reason - passing on to a new family generation to run, reaching retirement and coasting... who knows why, but there is more to it then just 'they were run out of town by lower prices'

Back in my home town we have a lumber yard called J-kay. All the time growing up I remember going to them, it wasn't until about 5 years ago Home Depot came to town, the other 3 mom and pop lumber yards are gone, but J-kay is busier then ever. They survived by adapting and serving THEIR customer base.

Around here we have Tony's Meat markets, they are thriving over the local swarm of giant super markets. You go into any local super market and you can get a porterhouse on sale for $5.99 a pound at times. You go into Tonys and that poerterhouse is over $14.00 a pound every day! 

They just built 2 more of these and they are mom and pop all the way and kicking ass and taking names because they have figured it out.


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## plumguy (May 29, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Around here we have Tony's Meat markets, they are thriving over the local swarm of giant super markets. You go into any local super market and you can get a porterhouse on sale for $5.99 a pound at times. You go into Tonys and that poerterhouse is over $14.00 a pound every day!
> 
> They just built 2 more of these and they are mom and pop all the way and kicking ass and taking names because they have figured it out.


:wallbash: :wallbash: Maybe it is the Miller Lite or I'm missing something here. How did they figure it out??


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## ContractorSon (Feb 4, 2005)

mdshunk said:


> ...and before someone brings up the fact that employees of the big stores are poorly paid...
> 
> While this is certainly true for the most part, look around the next time you're in one of these stores. You won't find any of the associates wearing a ball and chain. They are all free to run out in front of a bus, go on welfare, invent somthing, get a different job, read a book, hop a cross-country Greyhound, or whatever pleases them. There's no one making them work there. They may perceive totally fake, artificial pressures that they believe gives them no option. This is flatly not true.
> 
> The same is true for the customer's who shop there. You may buy your groceries at the Super Wal Mart or at the local farmer's market. You may buy your building materials at the Home Depot or you may buy them at your local trade supply house. While I support these big box stores' right to operate as a business, I choose not to shop there. Not for political reasons, but more for the service I get at the local supply house. I know I pay a premium sometimes, but I perceive value in that premium that I pay on each item in terms of stock availability and service from the staff. When and if this begins to wane, then I may shop for my material at Lowe's or Home Depot. Don't see that happening yet.


A long-time friend of 20 years had a sister that started at "Evil Orange" while in High School as a cashier.Sometime in the mid-late 80s...She participated in the employee stock plan/401k etc and had over 700k in HD stock.
One share bought by her had resulted in over 30 shares after splits.(I think it was 32,but cannot remember)
Pretty amazing....just as the Millionare janitors at Microsoft.


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## karma_carpentry (Aug 7, 2005)

I get bad service and disaffected ********************-kickin employees at my local lumberyard that has only 2 locations. I go to Home Depot and I get bad service from disaffected ********************-kickin employees, but I get the plywood for 20% cheaper.

I go to the local lumberyard and I can get about half of what I need. 20% of the lumber is boat-building material (curved in a big arc) that I have to cull through behind the yardhand's back. I go to Home Depot and I get about half of what I need, and the same poor quality, but I don't have to sneak around the yardhand to do the culling.

I admire some things about Walmart - their inventory system is top-notch and they use just-in-time supplying and make the most of their economy of scale.

But on the other hand, they're profiting from the unjust gloabalization, where goods can cross borders with rock-bottom tariffs, while people can't cross the same borders to equalize labor costs. And environmental and workplace safety laws are unequal too.

The big outlets can negotiate contracts for large lots of China-made goods, while the mom and pops have to buy from wholesalers who markup the prices.

Walmart and Home Depot actively practice union-busting techniques in their US operations, to hold down labor costs. I'm not a "union solves everything" person, but I think organized labor is an important counterpoint to organized big business. And in China, of course, there is no labor organizing done except by the state.

I admire their good points and their effiencies, but I can't pretend that they play on a level playing field with mom and pop places. I don't think the market is the final arbiter of what is right or best. It's one element of many, because we are humans with consciences and abilities to think about more than whose 2x4's are the cheapest.


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## old27 (Feb 13, 2005)

When did Wal-Mart start selling building materials? Someone please clarify why Wal-Mart is included in this discussion. I'm 10 miles north of Boston with two Wal-Marts within a ten minute drive..never saw any 2x4s on the racks...


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

Got a quote on a laminate counter top from a local business- $682+tax. HD can get me the same thing AND INSTALL IT for $650+tax. Now get this, who is the installer? Yes, the original business that I contacted will make the piece and install (and take the risk) pass the bill to HD, who mark it up and hand it to me. I save $32 and don't take time to install. (And bear no risk of erroneous measurements, damage in handling etc.) What can a guy do? Rich.


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## Richard Kaller (Aug 31, 2005)

Karma Carpentry,

You are correct no one can compete on Home Depot’s playing field except maybe for Lowes. However, it is easy to run circles around Home Depot in service and quality because their current delivery model is flawed, i.e. loose control, low-priced subs.

The executives of Home Depot are trained in Six Sigma and in fact helps refine it at GE. Eventually they may be able to compete on quality and service…but I suspect that is a long ways off. Their use of Six Sigma for helping build satellites, turbines and hospital equipment took them decades to master.

As basically all the trade magazines are reporting the industry will continue to consolidate. I have studied this situation since the late 1970's and it appears to we will eventually see a playing field with 1. Mass merchandisers (Home Depot Types). 2. Franchise organizations for contractors, and 3. Contractor networks or large buying groups doing most of the home improvement work.

However, there will also be room for the small independent just like the small stores in large shopping malls, that is, if the contractor goes to the next level and becomes a businessperson, not just a hammer swinging contractor.

Just my 2 cents…Richard


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

> You are correct no one can compete on Home Depot’s playing field


except for


> large buying groups


In flooring, Home Depot and Lowes do not carry the highest end products in the field.
If they want to feed off the low ball clients, they can ask for seconds as far as I am concerned.


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## Dale (Aug 26, 2004)

Florcraft said:


> I could not agree with Ruskent more.
> You either adapt or go home.
> It really is that simple.
> 
> ...


...remember that when the tide of competitors with crews of illegals start bidding more and more jobs...its really pretty much the same thing.


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## Dale (Aug 26, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> Hey,
> 
> *Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart - *
> 
> ...



...remember that when competitors with crews of illegals start bidding more and more of your jobs..


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

> remember that when competitors with crews of illegals start bidding more and more of your jobs..


Why would I be terribly worried about that?
What kind of clients that you want to earn business from fall for that crap?
There's plenty to go around, I have no need to sell EVERYBODY
If someone wants to be told that their quality can be done for a cheap price, they are not gonna buy from me.
I am very affordable for the quality you get..
But I ain't cheap.
And there's still plenty to go around.

We adapted as humans

why stop now


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

In addition, it is a fact that there are 2 kinds of companies in this world when it comes to competition.

The kind that pout and whine and complain
and the ones who are smart enough to benifit from the environment at the time.
There is little difference from humans learning to use twigs to pick ants out of a hill, to a salesperson learning that percieved value can conquer all.
Beating the competition is as easy as finding out what they aren't and you are.
Then catering to a client base that percieves value from what you offer.

WARNING: the advice just given only works with high self esteem. If your self esteem is low, you will not understand a word I just said.


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

uh??????

Bob


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Dale said:


> ...remember that when competitors with crews of illegals start bidding more and more of your jobs..


I run up against that now. Customers who don't care if their contractor employs illegals simply aren't my customers. I don't subscribe to the belief that everyone who can fog a mirror is my customer. Start marketing to the customers who you would like to work for and a funny thing happesn, your customers will end up being the type of customers you would like to work for.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Florcraft said:


> In addition, it is a fact that there are 2 kinds of companies in this world when it comes to competition.
> 
> The kind that pout and whine and complain
> and the ones who are smart enough to benifit from the environment at the time.



Exactly.

Look to the 1860s in the American west.

Every swinging ******************** was marching out west to go into business for himself as a gold miner. How many of those businesses got rich competing against each other doing exactly the same thing everyone else was doing? I've read that 99% of all prospectors never even broke even.

Now there was a few guys who looked at the current market conditions then and quickly figured it out that there was more money to be made selling the picks and shovels to the prospectors then going out and digging in the ground like everybody else. 

Those guys didn't whine and look to the government to subsides them, instead they figured out a different approach and they got rich because of it. 

Times are always a' changin and those that can adapt and see the changes coming will prosper, whilie those who can't will look for the government to redistribute wealth to protect them.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

plumguy said:


> :wallbash: :wallbash: Maybe it is the Miller Lite or I'm missing something here. How did they figure it out??


By catering to THEIR customer. The customer who wants something different from that which the average consumer finds in the super market.

Premium cuts of meat, fresh fish that really is fresh. Fresh produce that really is fresh. The cater to a clientel that will pay a preimum for high quality products and service.

Meanwhile we have 5 major supermarket chains killing each other trying to sell a TV dinner for .39. We did have 6 competing but one finally left the market because they couldn't make any money. Meanwhile Tony's is raking in record profits and expanding.

That's just a simple lesson in business, serve YOUR type of customer and serve them to the best of your ability and hopefully they will come knocking on your door in droves.


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

Home depot is going to have to do far better than Behr Premium Plus, American Standard, and Glidden to compete with me.........I don't even consider that competition, and my customer's can see it, and hear it when I tell them. Funny enough, the hacks in the paint biz are the one's doing the work for HD...damn, that works out in my favor too! Woot! 

If you do like I do, and make your customers understand that they are not your competition because they are not able to compete on your level you will be just fine.


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

I think we are all on the same page here.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

AAPaint said:


> Home depot is going to have to do far better than Behr Premium Plus, American Standard, and Glidden to compete with me.........I don't even consider that competition, and my customer's can see it, and hear it when I tell them. Funny enough, the hacks in the paint biz are the one's doing the work for HD...damn, that works out in my favor too! Woot!
> 
> If you do like I do, and make your customers understand that they are not your competition because they are not able to compete on your level you will be just fine.


I am not sure it is in the USA as well, but New Image Painting has the
contract to do all their painting. They may be hacks, I don't know, but
they are a 50 million well run painting company.

http://newimagepainters.com/residential.htm

Differentiating yourself on the product alone won't do it, 
as most customers can't tell the difference, and Home Depot can 
bring in any line they want. Consumers can be dazzled by a Ralph Lauren product 
way more than some second line commercial offering from Sherwin Williams or whoever.
Their product line is not bad, most ICI, Ralph Lauren, Zinsser etc. products 
are more than adequate for most applications. Wether you like it or not
ICI is one of the big guys and sales are not wrong.

We provide service. We must convince the prospect that 
we are good at that. We don't sell products that is for retailers
like Home Depot, Benjamin Moore etc. Arguing the merits of one 
product instead of another makes us loose focus.
In other words a great painter can work magic with Home Depot paint
and a bad painter can screw up with Benjamin Moore top line paint.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Even a stupid framer such as myself knew better than to buy paint from those unscrupulous box stores. 
I went to Kelley-Moore they even gave me a contractor discount so it cost same as **** depot. Did I also mention I did in one coat. 
I was amazed myself.


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

You may be absolutely right George. I'm just going on hearsay when it comes to home depot. I was under the impression that they sub the work out to local contractors.


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## painter77 (Sep 22, 2005)

A wealth of insightful business insights here.:thumbsup:


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## kenvest (Sep 27, 2005)

screen door roller....

home depot...$5.78

blowes (or slowes)....$6.09

mom and pop....$13.19

asked for a discount at the m&p (not a price match) and he pretty much told me to go f myself...i'll never go in there again.

and why would i?? he doesn't open till 8 and closes at 6. saturdays, he's done by 2. sundays...not a chance.

for most stuff, home depot makes sense.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

kenvest said:


> screen door roller....
> 
> home depot...$5.78
> 
> ...


Your thinking is all wrong here.
You guys act like you lose money if you pay top dollar for a product.
Don't you charge your customer for the materials? It shouldn't be a penny out of your pocket. Buy it, and mark it up.
I could save thousands of dollars a year buying my adhesive at Sherwin Williams. 
SW 5 of Dynamite 234 = $18.50
Mom/Pop 5 of dynamite 234 = $28.50
Who cares, I mark it up, and make a profit anyways.
Do I want to see my $$$ going to some corporate world headquarters, financing a 6 figure income for some guy who doesn't know primer from paint, or give my $$$ to Steve, who lives in my neighborhood, and supports his family by running a service-based paint retail store?
You make the call.


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