# apprentice having trouble cutting accurately



## likeke34 (Dec 9, 2009)

Hi everyone, i'm new to this site and am have been a carpenter apprentice for around 7 months... sorry for such a elementary question but right now we're doing form work and most of my 2X4 cuts have been coming out 1/16"-1/8" short and i've been taking some serious heat from my journeyman at work because of it... 

the saw we're using is the worm-drive mag77... what i'm having trouble with is the blade being on the left-side of the motor. when i cut 2X4's, i'll make my measurement, square it, then cut it and the way we cut it at work is with the 2X on our left foot w/our right foot back. 

so if i make my measurement from left to right, i can see my cut-line (when i cut) since the blade is on the left-side of the motor, but then the right side of the lumber is just too long hanging off of my left foot... naturally i want the smaller piece to fall off on the right when i cut, but when i'm cutting 6" blocks that means i can't see my cut-line or i'll end up cutting the block 1/8" or so short... 

i hope what i wrote is understandable because i'm having trouble describing my problem lol... basically, the blade is on the left and in order to see the cut-line, the line has to be on the left side of the blade... so when i cut off of my left foot, the lumber always comes out short... 

if we had saw-horses or a table it would be easy but at work, everything is about production and we cut fast, consistent, and off of our foot... the journeyman i work with gives me trouble because of my inaccurate cutting but when i ask for help he just tells me to go cut it and doesn't offer any advice...

thanks for any help and i really hope what i wrote makes sense since it was hard to describe my problem


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

What about cutting off the lumber pile? Let that act as your work station?


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## CSinc. (Nov 7, 2009)

im not a carpenter by trade but i wish i had a good teacher take me on when i was younger.all i can tell ya is to get some 2xs and practice your cutting.if it needs work it needs work.hang in there man its only a saw it goes wherever YOU want it to go.


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

You have to learn to cut without seeing the blade on the line.

In other words learn how thick your blade's kerf is so you can cut on the wrong side of the line and have it still be right. Make sense?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Might be time to buy your own saw? You gotta invest in yourself right?


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## curapa (Oct 8, 2007)

TulsaRemodeler said:


> Uh this is ContractorTalk, not newbie central, come back in 10-20 years


If I am not mistaken, people who are serious about learning the trades are welcome here too.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

TulsaRemodeler said:


> Uh this is ContractorTalk, not newbie central, come back in 10-20 years


That's bull**** dude.


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## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

You might want to find an employer that teaches there employees some basic skills before throwing them in the trenches. 
Have you asked for help? If some one aks for help I am more than willing to show them on site. Other than the person you allreday asked? like another apprentice?



Are you left handed?


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## TulsaRemodeler (Nov 24, 2009)

Knock yourselves out over a kid that cant figure out how to cut a piece of wood, pfft. Whatever. I rebuilt my first automatic trans when I was 17, first engine when I was 15. Pet the poor youth of today, whatever. Seriously....


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

cut on the opposite side. you should be able to cut with both hands. keep the 2x on your right foot, cut w/ your left so you could see the blade . the idea of working off the pile is good as well. anyhow, you should be able to work like a beast when doing form work. when you become a journeyman, remember this thread, and have your apprentice use sawhorses..Overall, show up on time every day, keep quiet, be humble and stick it out. some days will suck, but remember, the greatest thing about construction is that no job site or situation is forever. good luck.


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## 1mancrew (Nov 17, 2008)

Most blades eat up an 1/8th of an inch when cutting. Just mark it 5 1/8th" instead of 5" and cut on the other side of the line.


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## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

TulsaRemodeler said:


> Knock yourselves out over a kid that cant figure out how to cut a piece of wood, pfft. Whatever. I rebuilt my first automatic trans when I was 17, first engine when I was 15. Pet the poor youth of today, whatever. Seriously....


 This is contractors talk not Mechanics Talk come back in 10-20 years


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

Greg Di said:


> You have to learn to cut without seeing the blade on the line.
> 
> In other words learn how thick your blade's kerf is so you can cut on the wrong side of the line and have it still be right. Make sense?




likeke34, welcome to the site

I agree with Greg, I do the same thing. For me as long as I see the front of the blade I can tell where I'm at. I guess it may take a little practice, I'm sure you'll get it though:thumbup:



Dave


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I understand your difficulty. I have the same saw, it's great. So, if you can see the line, no problem. If you need to cut on the wrong side of the line, I can think of two solutions.

One is you will get better at it as time goes on. The other is to add the thickness of the saw blade to your measurement, say 1/8", so now you can cut seeing the line. 

Best solution is use a chop saw for repeated small pieces.

An added NOTE - never wire back that saw guard !!!!!!!!!!


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## HomeElements (Nov 9, 2009)

It just sounds like you are simply trying to cut on the line. You need to account for blade width.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

TulsaRemodeler said:


> Knock yourselves out over a kid that cant figure out how to cut a piece of wood, pfft. Whatever. I rebuilt my first automatic trans when I was 17, first engine when I was 15. Pet the poor youth of today, whatever. Seriously....


That's the Christmas Spirit :thumbsup:


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

Cut on the right side of the line, or look at the front of the blade


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

TulsaRemodeler said:


> Knock yourselves out over a kid that cant figure out how to cut a piece of wood, pfft. Whatever. I rebuilt my first automatic trans when I was 17, first engine when I was 15. Pet the poor youth of today, whatever. Seriously....





TulsaRemodeler said:


> Uh this is ContractorTalk, not newbie central, come back in 10-20 years


This type of behavior will not be tolerated here. 

I will speak for myself and the rest of the moderating team and say that thus is the perfect place for young guys to come and ask questions about their trade. The majority of the membership is committed to passing on not only knowledge of the mechanics of their trade but also how to thrive in it.

That is what we are here for and stand for. And for those that have opposite views, your toxic comments will have you banned.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Accounting for your blade thickness and cutting on the wrong side of the line sounds like a waste of time to me. If I need to cut a bunch of six inch blocks fast, I hold my tape in my left hand, mark 6" by scribing the end of my hook, then I hold my tape on six inches plus a 32'nd and scribe the end of my hook again, then I just keep doing that on the same 2 x 4, then I cut all of them. I don't need to use a square either, with practice you can eyeball square cuts on a 2 x 4 or 2 x 6. 

But you should be able to make your cut accurate on either side of the line. I don't see where your problem is, I think I'd have to see what you are doing. Are you sure you're not just forgetting what side of the line you're supposed to cut on? That's a common mistake for newbies, they just forget what side of the line to cut.


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## skipdow (Nov 8, 2009)

TulsaRemodeler said:


> Knock yourselves out over a kid that cant figure out how to cut a piece of wood, pfft. Whatever. I rebuilt my first automatic trans when I was 17, first engine when I was 15. Pet the poor youth of today, whatever. Seriously....


The reason I'm any good at contracting is some guys with building smarts didn't think it beneath them to stop what they were doing for a moment and pass along some of what they know to me.:notworthy I admire and commend likeke34 for the courage to say "I'm messing up can you help me":thumbsup:You got the rite attitude kid keep it up!
Oh yeah, if I have a lot of cuts to do I usually set up a chop saw, much more accurate:thumbup:


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## Birch (Jul 20, 2009)

Joe Carola said:


> Richard,
> 
> That's the one thing I disagree with you on. I can rip the same straight line without following the guide by following the line. I've never needed to use the guide before to rip straight lines. Saying that a straight line will be better performed using the guide is not true. It might be true for you.


Joe C.

My first post was really more for the benefit of the OP who hasn’t learned to be proficient with a saw yet. I’d be willing to bet that he would be more proficient to start with if he followed his guide rather than the blade. I also said that if you cut equally well as “factory” watching the blade, “What’s the difference?” 

Joe, just like there is geometry in a house there is geometry in a saw. The guide is there to complement the geometry and make the saw easier to use. It provide a line of site. It allows the sawyer to cut straight and hide his face from the flying debris.

Deckman said that you can see the blade veer off the line faster at the blade then at the guide. I’d like to know how that is possible? It pivots off the point of cut.

Not all saws are created equal. (They don’t build them like they used too.)

I can answer my own question above. I bought a couple of DW yellow circular saws a couple years back because I didn’t want my good PC-315 saws above the plate line. They bounce better and they’re cheaper to fix if they do break. The thing I noticed about them is that the complete saw housing flexes around when being used and is exaggerated at the base. (Thus the good bounce, got a lot of give to them.) The guides on those saws are virtually useless because they don’t hold their geometry. But you don’t need great cuts on gable studs and purlin braces.

When I first started all sidewinders were blades right. All wormies were blade left. Now days there are more blade left saws than blade right saws on the market. Right hander’s watching the blade on a blade right saw have to contort their bodies to get a view. They could stand comfortably behind the saw and make better cuts if they would use the guide but they have a need to watch the blade and contort themselves.

Evidently the market place dictated the evolution of the blade left sidewinder. The manufactures catered to the ignorance of the customer who didn’t want to use the guide. So they made the blades easier to see.

If you can see the blade, the blade can see you, and it will throw sawdust in your face. 


Wormdrives have never had good guides on them. I tend to "want" to watch the blade with them, but I still pay attention to the guide because a line of sight is better than a point of sight.


IMHO


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

This is one of those things that is easier to teach in person than over the internet. Unfortunately, it sounds as if the guys on his crew are too insecure to teach him to do it the right way. We like to ride the new guys a bit just for fun and to toughen them up. However, any one of my guys have always been willing to take the time to effectively teach the new guys. It is to everyones benfit to do this. That being said, all I can tell you is the same as the other guys. Sharp pencil, lots of practice, and also wear safety glasses so that you can see without squinting.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

Ok mr saw guide man...there is only one way to be sure every single cut is right no matter what saw you use or how many times you used it or who it belongs to...watch the blade.


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## Birch (Jul 20, 2009)

Warren said:


> This is one of those things....... practice, and also wear safety glasses so that you can see without squinting.


:nerd:.........:cheesygri :thumbup1::thumbup1: irate::gunsmilie:nline2long::rockon: :cheesygri :thumbsup:


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## ClemS (May 4, 2009)

guide is useless for following the line. learn to see the blade and cut with a chopping motion instead of a sliding motion.
learn to use either hand to make cuts and to change your view by moving the saw around and not moving yourself around the saw. 
:thumbsup:


i also don't understand the moderators whatsoever. yesterday you have a problem with a guy who can't fix a door, today you're practically stroking a guy who can't use a circular saw. hmm?:whistling


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

I hope the OP isn't gone for good due to one (or 2) stupid posts.
Perhaps the mods or Nathan can shoot him an e-mail to tune back in to see that the majority of posters took him seriously.

Hint Hint


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## likeke34 (Dec 9, 2009)

thanks for all the replies! i just got a mag77 so i'm about to go practice on it... i've read through every single reply and am gonna try everything to find what is best for me, starting with measuring 1/8" longer... i know it seemed like an elementary question but the journeyman i work with (who's actually my foreman) is totally on my case about my cuts coming out short... he is always yelling about something and really it seems like he's trying to get me to quit... sometimes i swear he's trying to set me up by purposely telling me to do something he knows i'll get wrong just so he can yell at me... this past week it's been my cuts... first it wasn't square enough (off by 1/16), now it's too short... every single cut i make he puts up against his square, then measures with his tape, and if it's not perfect he puts it in my face, makes these eyes at me like "WTF!" then throws the wood onto the ground and says to go do it again!

i wish i had other apprentices who worked with me, but right now it's just me, my foreman, and a superintendent... they both seem bipolar... sometimes they'll teach me something and be nice, and other times they'll snap if i ask them a question... work is very stressful but i know what i want to do and i'm glad i came across this forum... 

i just wish i could learn faster, right now they're always snapping at me for not knowing what to do when we build the forms, but to me it's all so foreign and they wont explain to me anything about the forms... so i figured i could at least learn to cut better since they're always on my case about it...

today my cuts were within 1/16" and he still kept telling me it had to be perfect (not yelling today though)... but my superintendent told me 1/16 is fine so idk, i just don't get this guy but he's my senior so i have to deal with it... he keeps telling me his wife cuts straighter than me lol...

thanks so much everyone, i really appreciate it!


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

likeke34 said:


> thanks for all the replies! i just got a mag77 so i'm about to go practice on it... i've read through every single reply and am gonna try everything to find what is best for me, starting with measuring 1/8" longer... i know it seemed like an elementary question but the journeyman i work with (who's actually my foreman) is totally on my case about my cuts coming out short... he is always yelling about something and really it seems like he's trying to get me to quit... sometimes i swear he's trying to set me up by purposely telling me to do something he knows i'll get wrong just so he can yell at me... this past week it's been my cuts... first it wasn't square enough (off by 1/16), now it's too short... every single cut i make he puts up against his square, then measures with his tape, and if it's not perfect he puts it in my face, makes these eyes at me like "WTF!" then throws the wood onto the ground and says to go do it again!
> 
> i wish i had other apprentices who worked with me, but right now it's just me, my foreman, and a superintendent... they both seem bipolar... sometimes they'll teach me something and be nice, and other times they'll snap if i ask them a question... work is very stressful but i know what i want to do and i'm glad i came across this forum...
> 
> ...


Sounds like a tape measure issue.
After you cut a board measure it.If it is what you wanted it to be and he says it's off then that is the problem.....But 1/16"?Really?Sounds like he is riding you a bit...


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

don't sweat it. you'll get better as long as you stick it out, I PROMISE. i've worked with a lot of jerks, and believe me, when the dust clears they're usually not in the picture. Just keep at it every day, on time, mouth shut, yes sir, no sir, do the best you can and eventually you will be on top. I PROMISE.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

likeke34 said:


> thanks for all the replies! !


I was actually worried that that one posters jabs might have scared you off. I think a lot of us are glad you're back.

You might be discouraged by the comments of your bosses now, but rest assured these are the best type of bosses to train under. When you leave them, (and you eventually will), remember them fondly. Their comments are hard to deal with at the time, but they are trying to make an impression on you. I've done it too (but I temper it with a few "atta boys" too)

Hang in there and think of us at the forum as guys you can vent with every night after work. The fact that you "manned up" and asked for help here speaks volumes to your character.

Their kids will probably be working for you someday and their dads will be bragging about how they trained you.

Hang in there and post in this thread after work whenever you need to. As you can see, most of us are here to help.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

likeke34 said:


> thanks for all the replies! i just got a mag77 so i'm about to go practice on it... i've read through every single reply and am gonna try everything to find what is best for me, starting with measuring 1/8" longer... i know it seemed like an elementary question but the journeyman i work with (who's actually my foreman) is totally on my case about my cuts coming out short... he is always yelling about something and really it seems like he's trying to get me to quit... sometimes i swear he's trying to set me up by purposely telling me to do something he knows i'll get wrong just so he can yell at me... this past week it's been my cuts... first it wasn't square enough (off by 1/16), now it's too short... every single cut i make he puts up against his square, then measures with his tape, and if it's not perfect he puts it in my face, makes these eyes at me like "WTF!" then throws the wood onto the ground and says to go do it again!
> 
> i wish i had other apprentices who worked with me, but right now it's just me, my foreman, and a superintendent... they both seem bipolar... sometimes they'll teach me something and be nice, and other times they'll snap if i ask them a question... work is very stressful but i know what i want to do and i'm glad i came across this forum...
> 
> ...


 Atta boy, you got yourself a good saw to practice with and the right attitude to excel. I worked with a bunch of guys like you're dealing with when I first started too. My foreman would make me carry lumber from one end of the house to the other just to bust my stones. Turned out that he couldn't break me and after almost a year I left that job for better employment. A few months later he went into business for himself and hired me to work nights and weekends with him. We became good friends. Don't get discouraged and don't let them see you get upset. Keep your mouth closed and harness your emotions to improve yourself. Always respect your tools for what they are capable of, they have the potential to hurt you. If the guys you work with won't teach you in the field, there is alot to learn here and most of us are glad to share our knowledge with an ambitious body who wants to improve their skill/knowledge of the trades.


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## HomeElements (Nov 9, 2009)

Rio said:


> A final point and I know a lot of framers will scoff at this but it's true. The guard is there for a reason and it's better to learn to work with it than to disable it.


 This one guy I know used to work for my step father many years back could ateast to that. I was not there at the time (for BS like this) but apparently they had they gaurd somehow tied back. The guy (not the smartest in the bunch, but not all his fault) was cutting and without thinking sat the saw down before the blade finished turning.

Well of course once he sat it on the plywood it took off like a dragster and removed 2 of his fingers.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

HomeElements said:


> Well of course once he sat it on the plywood it took off like a dragster and removed 2 of his fingers.


A flooring guy had a makita with the guard pinned back. He set it down and it ran up his sons back. 500 stitches later.


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## HomeElements (Nov 9, 2009)

Joe Carola said:


> A flooring guy had a makita with the guard pinned back. He set it down and it ran up his sons back. 500 stitches later.


Uggg.... that sounds brutal


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## ClemS (May 4, 2009)

the guard on the saw is there to prevent people with ADD from hurting themselves. if you're completely aware of what you're doing and are trying to build stuff, the guard is just an annoyance..

(mine are all chucked)

i don't allow people i don't know to use my saws with the guards up for insurance purposes and to save my cords. but the first thing a real framer will do is chuck the guard on a saw if it isn't chucked.


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## jeffatsquan (Mar 16, 2009)

ClemS said:


> the guard on the saw is there to prevent people with ADD from hurting themselves. if you're completely aware of what you're doing and are trying to build stuff, the guard is just an annoyance..
> 
> (mine are all chucked)
> 
> i don't allow people i don't know to use my saws with the guards up for insurance purposes and to save my cords. but the first thing a real framer will do is chuck the guard on a saw if it isn't chucked.


so you only want people you know to get hurt and go to the hospital for insurance purposes that's re-dick-u-less


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## ClemS (May 4, 2009)

jeffatsquan said:


> so you only want people you know to get hurt and go to the hospital for insurance purposes that's re-dick-u-less


people who stay employed by me don't hurt themselves. they come to work TO WORK. 

i don't allow cell phones, music, newspapers or any other mind-polluting garbage on the jobsite either.


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## Birch (Jul 20, 2009)

ClemS said:


> the guard on the saw is there to prevent people with ADD from hurting themselves. if you're completely aware of what you're doing and are trying to build stuff, the guard is just an annoyance..
> 
> (mine are all chucked)
> 
> i don't allow people i don't know to use my saws with the guards up for insurance purposes and to save my cords. but the first thing a real framer will do is chuck the guard on a saw if it isn't chucked.



 Brilliant!


(all chucked up?)**


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> unfortunately alot of framers yell at the guys who use their square to cut 2x4s
> 
> Very true.


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## HomeElements (Nov 9, 2009)

ClemS said:


> people who stay employed by me don't hurt themselves. they come to work TO WORK.
> 
> i don't allow cell phones, music, newspapers or any other mind-polluting garbage on the jobsite either.


 I dont doubt your skills or that of your employee's, the guard can get in the way at times, but I have never had the guard stop me from doing what needed to be done. All it takes is one slip up by someboday and you are looking at a lawsuit.... Man I would be careful with this...


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## nailman (Sep 4, 2008)

Mellison said:


> tomstruble said:
> 
> 
> > unfortunately alot of framers yell at the guys who use their square to cut 2x4s
> ...


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## ClemS (May 4, 2009)

loneframer said:


> :laughing:Hard to take a picture of thumbing the guard lever while operating the camera at the same time is all. As for the Pirahnas, I just realized they don't still use the curved gullets recently. They made some funky shavings, nice blades.


i don't own a wormdrive, and it's been about 12 years since i've used one. it doesn't look like you can cut one handed with it, is that so?


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## ClemS (May 4, 2009)

nailman said:


> Mellison said:
> 
> 
> > Rather have them use their square then to have them cut it again.
> ...


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

loneframer said:


> :laughing:Hard to take a picture of thumbing the guard lever while operating the camera at the same time is all. As for the Pirahnas, I just realized they don't still use the curved gullets recently. They made some funky shavings, nice blades.



they have been off the market for some time. I remember the first time i used one in 86, I was cutting particle board underlayment which can beat up a blade due to the binders. I was able to coast my saw about a foot into the particle board after i released the trigger! HOLY ****!!! I remember they were pricey as throwaways back then. 9 to 12 dollars a blade. But the better the blade. the less it beats up on your saw and arbor bearings.


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## nailman (Sep 4, 2008)

Warren said:


> I think the real danger of the guard pinners comes from when you have more than one person using the same tool. One guy may be "used to it" like that, but the new guy will probably get hurt. .


 
That is one of the best reason why you should never pin the guard.
I pin my guard and I know better, But I never know when a greenhorn will pick it up and use it. It's a hard habbit to break.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

ClemS said:


> i don't own a wormdrive, and it's been about 12 years since i've used one. it doesn't look like you can cut one handed with it, is that so?


 Kinda tough to hold it straight out nowadays, but I can make most cuts one handed. The guards operate freely and pocket cuts aren't impossible one handed. It's just comfortable for me to use the aux. handle, especially when cutting rafters, just feels natural to me. Bevel cuts are pretty smooth one handed also.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Hey clem can you please explain how a guard slows you down while cutting a 2x4 or 2x6 square? I mean that is 80% of cuts made in framing. And I dont need to get the guard out of the way to see a line on a 2x4, I must be special or something.


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

So much of construction is the dick factor...are people really that miserable they have to make everyone around miserable too?....

bitching about a 1/16 on a form is wasting time and the owner should kick the OP's foreman's ass! JHC!!!

Is there a better example of rough framing than "forms"?????

However, there's plenty of jack knee framers who think using a speed square, or saw station is inefficient....

Edit: sorry late post....very late....


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## nailman (Sep 4, 2008)

ClemS said:


> nailman said:
> 
> 
> > wonder what other scars you have from other power tools.
> ...


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

A W Smith said:


> they have been off the market for some time. I remember the first time i used one in 86, I was cutting particle board underlayment which can beat up a blade due to the binders. I was able to coast my saw about a foot into the particle board after i released the trigger! HOLY ****!!! I remember they were pricey as throwaways back then. 9 to 12 dollars a blade. But the better the blade. the less it beats up on your saw and arbor bearings.


 I still have a 10 inch, 40 tooth I think. Has a black finish to it. I had it in a tablesaw that burned up and never got another 10 inch saw till recently. Might have to give 'er a spin for old times.:thumbsup:


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## ClemS (May 4, 2009)

RobertCDF said:


> Hey clem can you please explain how a guard slows you down while cutting a 2x4 or 2x6 square? I mean that is 80% of cuts made in framing. And I dont need to get the guard out of the way to see a line on a 2x4, I must be special or something.



okay. i cut by chopping, not by sliding the saw across.

2x4 is one chop.
2x6 is a little more than a chop.

the blade enters from the top, not from the side. as the blade goes down on your mark (no square lines for 2x4 or 6, unless i absolutely want perfect), you're able to adjust slightly to get square, or to align if you're fit-cutting (plates, etc). 

it is very hard to get a square drag on a piece of wood when you enter with a slide, to get the guard to function. much harder on 6's than 4's, and impossible on wider stock. when you chop, you get very close results and can actually have close calls on wider stock (such as cropping the beams to length if they're not critical).

if the guard isn't secured in the up position you're forced to use the other hand to raise it. hope this helps understand my position.


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## BuiltByMAC (Mar 11, 2006)

Unless anyone has any more pertinent info regarding the OP's question, I believe this argument is about as dead as it can get.

clems, this is the third time I've wandered through a thread that got completely bloated w/ "I'm right, you're wrong" posts where you're on one side of the argument.

I'll leave this thread open if folks want to continue talking about ways to cut accurately. However, if you attempt to continue the argument, it will be closed.

Mac


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## ClemS (May 4, 2009)

WNYcarpenter said:


> So much of construction is the dick factor...are people really that miserable they have to make everyone around miserable too?....
> 
> bitching about a 1/16 on a form is wasting time and the owner should kick the OP's foreman's ass! JHC!!!
> 
> ...


it IS inefficient. speed square is a waste of time 5 out of 10 times. cutting stations are great in concept, but you're handling the stuff twice. 

move it where it has to go, cut, install.


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## ClemS (May 4, 2009)

BuiltByMAC said:


> Unless anyone has any more pertinent info regarding the OP's question, I believe this argument is about as dead as it can get.
> 
> clems, this is the third time I've wandered through a thread that got completely bloated w/ "I'm right, you're wrong" posts where *you're on one side of the argument.*
> 
> ...


should i be on two or three different sides? if you read through the junk you'll actually realize that i am providing valuable information to anyone who wants to learn how to frame (OP included).


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

loneframer said:


> I still have a 10 inch, 40 tooth I think. Has a black finish to it. I had it in a tablesaw that burned up and never got another 10 inch saw till recently. Might have to give 'er a spin for old times.:thumbsup:


I bought 4 close out 9" ones for rough
work with my Rockwell miter box.


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

Maybe this has already been mentioned in this lengthy thread, but maybe your apprentice just needs glasses?:blink:
Steve


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

neolitic said:


> I bought 4 close out 9" ones for rough
> work with my Rockwell miter box.


 I'd like to see a pic of that box. The last Rockwell tool I saw was my pops circ saw about 25 years ago. Of course there is a line of HO quality cordless Rockwell tools floating around some local yards.:whistling


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

stp57 said:


> Maybe this has already been mentioned in this lengthy thread, but maybe your apprentice just needs glasses?:blink:
> Steve



Or maybe the saw was dropped and the saw shoe is bent. With little experience the apprentice could be seeing the edge of the shoe not running parallel with the blade and attempting to "correct" the saw as he cuts.


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## ClemS (May 4, 2009)

stp57 said:


> Maybe this has already been mentioned in this lengthy thread, but maybe your apprentice just needs glasses?:blink:
> Steve


i think you lost track of the OP. the OP is the apprentice, he is being reprimanded for lousy workmanship, but is not being taught to cut accurately. he and wants to learn. he doesn't seem to realize that practice makes perfect, and that is exactly what his mentor is making him do. he is lucky they let him re-cut. when i was learning if i didn't cut the first piece dead on i was sent to shovel crap (figuratively).


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## nailman (Sep 4, 2008)

Journyman reading his tape right?


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## A.B.Hardesty (Dec 14, 2009)

No. 26 on my list of 50 of the 100 things to know about building ! Check your tape make sure the end moves and is not bent. I've had helpers think that there tape was bad because of the play in the tang. Then maybe check the other guys tape. While he is not looking of course.
The guide of course! I kept waiting for someone to mention that. I must admit I ignored it myself for about 20 years and then. OH! WoW what a great way to get a good cut. I'm surprised no one mentioned using a speed square. I am a firm believer in saw horses no. 33 on the list. Only I call them Donkey's


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## shadyike (Mar 20, 2009)

TulsaRemodeler said:


> Knock yourselves out over a kid that cant figure out how to cut a piece of wood, pfft. Whatever. I rebuilt my first automatic trans when I was 17, first engine when I was 15. Pet the poor youth of today, whatever. Seriously....


Why are you a re-molder then?,some one as naturally mechanically inclined as you should be a mechanic.

I think the op is just over thinking the best advise is try to be natural let the saw be an extension of your arm also make sure you start out square against the board thats a common problem I see with new guys.


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## Ebbo (Aug 22, 2009)

To the OP, I haven't read through all 10 pages of this so I don't know if this has been mentioned [I am sure it has been with all the knowledgeable people here] Use a speed square to make your cuts,Make your pencil mark, use the square against your guide to make a straight cut on your mark, See vid of using the square.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcGzQkUssdQ


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## Ebbo (Aug 22, 2009)

You don't need to use the big orange one they sow in the vid either, get the small aluminum one, will be fine for you [to the OP].


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Ebbo said:


> To the OP, I haven't read through all 10 pages of this so I don't know if this has been mentioned [I am sure it has been with all the knowledgeable people here] Use a speed square to make your cuts,Make your pencil mark, use the square against your guide to make a straight cut on your mark, See vid of using the square.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcGzQkUssdQ


Depends on what you do for a living. If he's going to be cutting forms and be a framer using a speedsquare to cut is useless. He will never know how to cut square with his saw. There's no reason to use a speedsquare when cutting framing lumber of form work. If your a framer and need a speedsquare to cut a 2x square and can't follow a squared line to cut something is seriously wrong. At first you won't be able to cut square but after practicing every single day cutting and cutting you will cut a 2x4 and up square. How else will you learn how to cut square?


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## galla35 (Feb 27, 2009)

I agree with Joe using a square to cut is only adding fuel to the fire of not knowing how to cut.. on a mag77 i look at the blade and fallow the line with the blade sort of look through it... or if im cutting lefty with it i look "through the blade"


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## Birch (Jul 20, 2009)

While using a speed square as an aid to making square cuts has a time and place, occasionally, it can also encourage dependency on the technique and become a crutch. Cutting 2/’s square should become ‘first’ nature for an experienced sawyer. I have a few antique saws that actually came with square saw guides accessories.

When performing a perfect cut it will “Look right, sound right, and feel right”. Those senses are like warning lights on your senses instrument panel, when they go from green to red, time to figure out why.

One reason I stressed using the saw guide in my previous posts is that it has been my observation that some guys will let the eyeball light overrule the sound and feeling lights. The blade watchers tend to believe their eyes only and ignore the other warnings. I can tell a hundred feet away, with earplugs in, that a sawyer’s panel is showing red lights because the ear light on my panel goes red. (I have an old PC saw that has an ‘overload’ light panel scale on the brush cap. I don’t use it though. I just collect the dang things.)

There can be a variety of reasons that the warning panel lights up, the first and most common being poor user technique. Second comes the saw, Dull blade, bent saw foot or other foundation geometry maintenance issues, bearings, brushes, switch, guard, etc… Third, the piece being cut may have internal stress that binds the blade.

Another reason that I stress using the saw guide is it can be used to make accurate diamond cuts that are commonly found on Hip and Valley rafters without all the additional geometry marks of the cuts being applied to the board. The geometry that is contained in these rafters is applied by the saw automatically. It allows you to skip steps in the marking process and speeds production. Some guys have referred to this technique as a short cut. (It’s more than just a short cut, but that’s an ongoing discussion in many other threads I have posted in. They don’t make saws, or people, like they used too.)

I demand that my guys understand and use the saws features. Truthfully, if they can cut as well as Me watching their blade, then it doesn't matter. But when it comes to the H/V rafter cuts, blade watchers always fall short.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

thank God for j channel:clap:


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Birch said:


> While using a speed square as an aid to making square cuts has a time and place, occasionally,




When is that during framing?


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## galla35 (Feb 27, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> thank God for j channel:clap:


Hahaha Tom you made my day right there


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## A.B.Hardesty (Dec 14, 2009)

Talk about beating a dead horse! I had to go back and see what the original question was. The subject was apparently not being reprimanded for making cuts that were out of square. They were sometimes coming up short. Then while reading his post he says if measuring from left to right he rests the board on his left foot. Here he says he can see the line and is fine with it. Except I say he should do a 180 and rest it on his right foot. This puts the shoe on the proper piece of lumber and the saw will be resting flat on the 2x while the drop falls away.But he would have to look under the saw to see the line which is do-able. Practice, Practice, Practice. I also think he might just be getting confused about which side of the line to cut on._ love my mag 77 and use and abuse it._ But I got to tell you A couple of years ago I switched my cordless tools (because of theft):furious: from dewalt to makita. And the 18v LI series is amazing. the little circular saw is an extension of my body. I literally use it for everything and would not hesitate to carry it into the trenches and leave the mag by the lumber pile.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Birch said:


> One reason I stressed using the saw guide in my previous posts is that it has been my observation that some guys will let the *eyeball light *overrule the sound and *feeling lights.* The blade watchers tend to believe their eyes only and ignore the other warnings. I can tell a hundred feet away, with earplugs in, that a sawyer’s panel is showing *red lights *because the *ear light *on my panel goes red. (I have an old PC saw that has an *‘overload’ light* panel scale on the brush cap. I don’t use it though. I just collect the dang things.)
> 
> There can be a variety of reasons that the *warning panel lights *up, the first and most common being poor user technique. Second comes the saw, Dull blade, bent saw foot or other foundation *geometry* maintenance issues, bearings, brushes, switch, guard, etc… Third, the piece being cut may have internal stress that binds the blade.





Richard,

What in the world are you talking about? Lights, geometry for cutting a piece of wood?

I can cut any piece of wood without the saw guide just as straight as you using a saw guide or anyone else in the world can. The saw guide means nothing and is not needed to cut a straight line. If a framer can't cut a straight line without using a saw guide, he is looking to deep into the lights.

We're talking about cutting wood straight/square that we do every day not rocket science.


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## Birch (Jul 20, 2009)

Joe Carola said:


> Richard,
> 
> What in the world are you talking about? Lights, geometry for cutting a piece of wood?
> 
> ...


 
Joe C.


Simply put, it is smart to use the guide (and other features) on a saw, it is ignorant not too.


Newby’s learn to make better cuts faster if they are taught to use the guide. 


Before you go shooting your mouth off again, try it.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Well, I think this thread has run it's course.

The chunky lady has sung her song.


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