# RedGuard for crack suppression?



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

EthanB said:


> Are you sure you aren't thinking of Mapei's Aqua D as the blue one?


No, IIRC that changed color over time (no pun intended). I think it was a laticrete product, baby blue and the fabric was in 3' rolls. 



MIKE ANTONETTI said:


> You didn't bond the felt paper?


Think about it....how would you bond felt paper? And how good would it hold? 
What holds the pan to what above the Chloraloy?


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

No not for "bond" just to hold down in place and not deal with the bs ripples. So you don't count either!


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

So now I don't know what I'm doing? F U lol. Nope, no bonding of the felt. Like mentioned above, what good would it do? Waste of labor and adhesive. Wrinkles aren't that bad if you find the rolls that haven't been ran over by the tow motor driver...


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

Nope you don't count either, I guess my point is if you know what you're doing, the reason why, your pretty much good to go. Basically you guys are pretty dam competent. 

I do see a bit of tenting, so gravity won't prevent the pressure of expansion to keep the floor down, but I've read previously you all understand that as well. Different tile, diff. areas of the country, we treat the cracks with suppression and hope for the best.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

MIKE ANTONETTI said:


> you don't count either!


Man, if I had a dime for every time someone said that to me.....


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

MIKE ANTONETTI said:


> I do see a bit of tenting, so gravity won't prevent the pressure of expansion to keep the floor down


Why do tile floors tent?


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

_Why do tile floors tent? _

Because George Bush. Duhh.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

* Successful tile installation is about support. *

You're goddam right!! Give tile full support underneath and a little room to move laterally and it will be there a thousand years.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Tile on slab is pretty rare in these parts, usually it's remodeling basements. Are you guys using crack iso. membranes as SOP when you tile over slab or is it too expensive to sell? Slabs without cracks are pretty rare here too.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

*RedGuard For Crack Suppression?*

Redguard is a little pricey compared to other crack suppression membranes, I believe I used four different membranes on one job, sloppin that stuff everywhere just to get rid of some buckets. The last section we used redguard because the other stuff, I think it was proflex product took too long to dry. Redguard is also exterior, the others were interior. Mapelastic CI(for Crack Isolation) is about 1/2 price of redguard but is for cracks only.

Sop around here for years was 1. No crack suppression 2. Glue down 3' sheet vinyl paper with cheap gp adhesive and install tile over 
3. Tar paper joints with asphalt adhesive, (worked ok) HPG(smurf guts)not my term, or another ci membrane.

I think problems start from the beginning when slabs are poured, first a lot of overwatering to place it, control joints aren't cut, or cut too late(should be cut when able to be walked on, not next day) and are not cured properly, I have seen no methods of curing(wet,curing agents,or covered) in my area.

Tenting occurs I guess for couple reasons. Either the tile expands and everything being hard horizontally meaning the grout made of portland so it will not compress, the only way it can go for breathing room(when blocked by walls) is up.

Another reason slabs shrink as they "cure" and also moves at different rates as tile moves (thermal expansion)

Some tile expands, usually cheap stuff, I don't know why.

Tile guys have replaced pieces for years, usually no crack suppression was used or they did a 6" band, (not wide enough) 

Another tent issue may be this. Tile was not bonded to slab well enough, meaning if tile or slab moves, the shear strength was too much that the thinset did not hold it. Breaking bond, many reasons for that as well(dust on floor,release agent on back of tile, not set into thinset sufficiently, slab pulls moisture out of thinset prematurely,etc.)

No soft joints, nowhere for tile to expand, interior should be 15-20' varies and around perimeter.

Tile gets the bad rap from cracking due to not having the membrane down to begin with, an installer comes in, dusts their house out to replace cracked tile, if they put down a membrane, maybe not wide or right thickness, or the movement is too much, or even vertical which no crack suppression on the market will warranty, and it cracks again, or cracks in another area, they're usually done with ceramic tile and look to another type of Floorcovering, usually hardwood, but now sometimes LV Plank or Lv tile.

In Sanford Florida I went to pick up a check from a flooring store, the builder put in the wrong floor tile and I removed it dust free(Dustram system) so in their warehouse they had on pallet racks a whole truckload of Mapelastic CI, so however many buckets on one pallet times however many a semi truck holds because they got a better deal. So that's probably for all the new construction in that area. My area, hey can you order me a bucket of M-CI?


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

Heh. I remember when I was a territory manager for a big distributor, Bostik/ Durabond was one of the companies I represented. At some point, they came out with a crack suppression thinset. No kidding. I forget what they called it. Anyway, they said it would take the place of a membrane because of it's flex properties. Being just a dumb ole' logical guy I asked, "How the hell does thinset flex laterally, but not vertically?" I got no straight answer. They pulled it from the market pretty quick. I'm sure somebody got promoted. hehe


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

We used Tec's version of that, I somewhat felt kinda guilty using it and not treating the crack the normal method. I don't know how it worked on the jobs we did, but it was a timesaver and we didn't have to charge for the suppression. Kinda like the grout additive for portland not needing the sealer added afterward. I know many have switched to other types of grouts for that reason as well.


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

ccoffer said:


> Is my skepticism about RedGard as a real crack suppression membrane just superstition on my part? Did a tiny kitchen the other day that had a tiny spider crack in it and I used RedGard just because it was convenient. I wonder if I wasted my time and money, but I can't stand the idea of traversing a crack without doing something.
> 
> Just wondering what others think. I know what the side of the bucket says. Whatsay you?


I think Redgard rates right up there with other liquids and is a fine product. Especially since they reformulated it, and it now dries faster. But, like most liquids, it only protects to a certain amount of movement. For more protection, you may want to use a sheet membrane. I have used a good bit of Easy Mat (also a Custom product). It supposedly protects to 1/4" of movement. Greenskin claims 1/2" of protection. http://www.devcomtape.com/uploads/GS-4000CSI-data-sheet.pdf Both Easy Mat and Greenskin are also underlayments.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

CO762 said:


> I think it was a laticrete product, baby blue


See, I told you. I know what I'm talking about....


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

CO762 said:


> The earlier redguard was pretty watery, so a mesh was required--or should have been required, don't know as used it once and didn't see any use for it. 9235 was better and we always had some of that around. A few years later they reformulated redguard into something thicker and IIRC that's when it was OK to use as a stand alone waterproofing for pans. That was after hydroban came into being and being the choice of the month for pans/showers. The race was on....
> 
> What was that blue latricrete? That was out before hydroban also and we used a ton of it, but every time had the fabric. Our uses were more of an anti-fracture than waterproofing. Left a pretty cool looking floor, but being what it was and on not shotblasted concrete, could get an edge and pull it up pretty easily.
> 
> All construction is based upon gravity...and the predictability of water...


Blue 92. It is strictly intended for anti-fracture. Very good stuff.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

HS345 said:


> Blue 92. It is strictly intended for anti-fracture. Very good stuff.


I don't recall using that, but most of the time we'd just show up and pull off the pallets. Work for different people/architects meant we'd not usually know what we were going to use until we showed up, sometimes having to read the directions as it was something new. 

Ditra was like that for us--the architects spec'd it and IIRC, it was special order from out of state, so here we were, reading the directions. Hmmm, back then there may not have been directions with it. Anyway, we couldn't get a hold of the architect, shipped direct so flooring sub didn't know anything about it, so we wound up calling the schluter reps. No idea how we got a hold of their number as there weren't smart phones then and most of us were dumb to start with. What was funny was the flooring heat reps and the ditra reps each said a different thing as to where the heat should go when using ditra. It was a cluster....

I do remember using HPG though. Liked that until aquadefense came out and killed off that. Before all the hpg was out of the supply line, you could get it clearanced at the retail stores....very very very very cheap, like $15-20/gal. B******s didn't clearance the fabric, no matter how much I tried to BS them...


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## ee3 (Feb 10, 2006)

There are lots of choices for Crack Isolation Membranes.While I have heard of allot of things being used and working.If your putting your name on it I would stick to one that has been tested to ANSI 118.12.There are two levels of performance.1/16" up to 1/8" and 1/8" and over. Some of the products mention here are tested to it ,some are not..Look at what your using you might be surprised..:whistling


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

NTCA says something to the effect of it being an 1/8" or over that a structural engineer should determine ....?


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

ee3 said:


> Some of the products mention here are tested to it ,some are not..Look at what your using you might be surprised.


I saw some of the test results. Nobel needs to work less on science and more on marketing.... :laughing:


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

I think Ditra is the ultimate. Sure, it's a pain compared to other products, but it solves a lot of problems at one time.


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