# Metal roofs



## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

My wife works with a lady whose husband wants a metal roof to replace ashingled roof that is only 3 or 4 years old. They have a price and wanted me to check it out here. I told her I really couldn't do that as different area, actual scope unknown , pricing questions frowned upon, etc.

Actually, the price seemed good to me, but I don't know what is actually involved except for the approximate square footage. I have no idea as to type of construction, valleys and all that. That and I really have no idea what these things run.

My question is about the rubber washers on the screws drying out and causing leaks. I have heard they will dry out and cause problems.

Comments?


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## avguy (Feb 8, 2010)

Why the heck are they replacing a (at least 20 year) roof after 4 years?


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Beats me. I am told he just wants one. I think I asked my wife the same question.


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

Those rubber washers can but rarely dry out with time but usually they fail due to over tightening the screw.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

SAW.co said:


> Those rubber washers can but rarely dry out with time but usually they fail due to over tightening the screw.


 
I sorta thought the problem might be connected to human error. I mean it seems if this was a big problem from using the screws, there would not be so many metal roofs.

BUt given that, how long can you expect the screws and washers to do their job?


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

What type of metal roofing are they talking about... 

Standing seam or something like Metalworks shingles...


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

Honestly I personally have not seen them fail simply from time or drying out. Last year I replaced about 30% of the screws on a roof that was installed by the H/O about 20 yr. ago. They were all smashed out from over tightening.


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

MAULEMALL said:


> What type of metal roofing are they talking about...
> 
> Standing seam or something like Metalworks shingles...


I think standing seam uses a clip & metalworks is nailed like a shingle no screws with rubber washers are used on either.


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

You are mentioning exposed fasteners. Putting cheap metal on over a brand new shingle roof? That's like putting linoleum over marble flooring. There are many different types of metal roofing with major differences between types. I'd like to know what kind of system he plans on covering it with before saying anything about it. Except that I know if he's planning on a cheap, exposed fastener rolled-rib he's insane.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Sorry, I have no idea. I assumed it would be standing seam, but really do not know.


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## Jason-F (Jul 4, 2009)

Standing roofs only have a couple screws with rubber washers..... Duraclad Roofs have many screws with washers. Ne-hoo, it is nothing worth worrying about, the rubber should long outlast the time they are actually going to continue living at the house.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

not so much the neoprene lasting but it the hole elongation that's going to eventually cause a leak


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

Standing seam = no exposed fasteners

Probably a R panel or coragated panel. They are ok wouldnt be something I would put on a house. The washers will generally hold up if not over driven like stated before.

If they are going to replace a good shingle roof with metal opt for a standing seam roof. looks better last longer, but like other things costs more.


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## kage (Aug 17, 2008)

I dont know about the rubber drying out but all the screws I've replaced on EF roofs is the screws popping out from building shifting/settling, the HF roofs have not had problems with the screws.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

kage said:


> I dont know about the rubber drying out but all the screws I've replaced on EF roofs is the screws popping out from building shifting/settling, the HF roofs have not had problems with the screws.


 
it's not from the building shifting its from panel ex/con


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## MikeGC (Dec 6, 2008)

If the guy is dopey enough to replace a four year old roof then I would politely wish him well, disengage and move on to something worthy of your attention. 

HE DOESNT LISTEN ANY WAY


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## kage (Aug 17, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> it's not from the building shifting its from panel ex/con


 Yup another reason.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

This is not a hard fast rule, but more than likely an exposed fastener roof will have a polyester finish. A hidden fastener roof will more likely have a kynar finish which is much more durable. If the roof panels have striations, it's usually a thinner gauge than smooth panels.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

MikeGC said:


> If the guy is dopey enough to replace a four year old roof then I would politely wish him well, *disengage* and move on to something worthy of your attention.
> 
> HE DOESNT LISTEN ANY WAY


I agree this siunds dopey to replace an almost new roof, but I was never really engaged. The wife just thought I could find some info on the price. I stated my responce to that.

Other than that, I am completely ignorant when it comes to metal roofs. 
I mentioned I assumed they were talking about a standing seam roof. I think what I was referring to is a corragated roof not standing seam.

Heheh, so you see, I rerally have no dog in this race.
The resposes were interesting though.

I will say app 2600 square feet for $4000 sounded off to me, but I was thinking it involved a lot of tear off. A roofer told me probably not.

Oh well, glad it is not me.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

tomstruble said:


> it's not from the building shifting its from panel ex/con


 
most of which can be reduced by mounting the panels on a ''flexible'' z purlin system


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

tomstruble said:


> most of which can be reduced by mounting the panels on a ''flexible'' z purlin system


Will not the metal panel still expand and contract inbetween the fasteners?
Still causing hole enlargemnt? It would still be held rigid and not allowed to move. 
Trouble with those kind of panels, is where everyone is putting the fasteners.
Right in the flat, where all the water is directed. Are the rubber grommets going to last as long as the metal?
Doesnt make sense to me, but Im just a lowly roofer.... not a architect, engineer, or manufacturer.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

if you mount the metal z purlins all going in the same direction the whole assembly will ''flex'' in the same direction putting less stress on the screw and the panel,reducing hole elongation and screw backout


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

red_cedar said:


> Will not the metal panel still expand and contract inbetween the fasteners?
> Still causing hole enlargemnt? It would still be held rigid and not allowed to move.
> Trouble with those kind of panels, is where everyone is putting the fasteners.
> Right in the flat, where all the water is directed. Are the rubber grommets going to last as long as the metal?
> Doesnt make sense to me, but Im just a lowly roofer.... not a architect, engineer, or manufacturer.



I've never seen an exposed fastener roof last more than about 10-12 years without some sort of major problem. Finish failure or hole wallowing or both. But that type of roof is more likely to be installed by someone with minimal or no experience and a lot of the fastener problems and leaks are due to installer error.

I'd think twice before installing exposed fastener metal over finished ceilings. There are lots of better, less expensive alternatives, IMHO. For barns, shops, sheds, etc, it's good stuff.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

seeyou said:


> There are lots of better, less expensive alternatives, IMHO. For barns, shops, sheds, etc, it's good stuff.


 
which is why it is also described as an ''Ag panel''


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

boman47k said:


> I agree this siunds dopey to replace an almost new roof, but I was never really engaged. The wife just thought I could find some info on the price. I stated my responce to that.
> 
> Other than that, I am completely ignorant when it comes to metal roofs.
> I mentioned I assumed they were talking about a standing seam roof. I think what I was referring to is a corragated roof not standing seam.
> ...


 
154 a square for materials and labor? beware of scammers.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

1985gt said:


> 154 a square for materials and labor? beware of scammers.


The Amish around here will provide and install 29 ga polyester exposed fastener on a walkable straight gable for about that. 'Course, you have to go pick them up and take them home.


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

seeyou said:


> The Amish around here will provide and install 29 ga polyester exposed fastener on a walkable straight gable for about that. 'Course, you have to go pick them up and take them home.


They provide the materials? Thats the amish for you, undercutting everyone, even the hacks!


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

1985gt said:


> They provide the materials? Thats the amish for you, undercutting everyone, even the hacks!


Yeah. There are several forming factories that border Amish country. They've got some sort of symbiotic relationship going on. I've never paid much attention to it since they're no competition to me. I don't guess any Amish are gonna weigh in here to explain their business model.


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

seeyou said:


> Yeah. There are several forming factories that border Amish country. They've got some sort of symbiotic relationship going on. I've never paid much attention to it since they're no competition to me. I don't guess any Amish are gonna weigh in here to explain their business model.


 
Isnt that kind of against their views to use material that has been made with electircity?  How bad would it suck to try and fasten a metal panel with one of them old time "drills" That has got to kill your production. No I dont guess they will chime in here any time soon. I would guess that there over head is low though. Also wonder if they have to follow osha's rules. I would guess so but I dont know much about Amish, other hten the fact there is a guy who buys thier products to resale...


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

1985gt said:


> Isnt that kind of against their views to use material that has been made with electircity?  How bad would it suck to try and fasten a metal panel with one of them old time "drills" That has got to kill your production. No I dont guess they will chime in here any time soon. I would guess that there over head is low though. Also wonder if they have to follow osha's rules. I would guess so but I dont know much about Amish, other hten the fact there is a guy who buys thier products to resale...


They use power tools run off of a generator. They just won't hook into the grid. They like Dewalt tools around here. They'll ride in a car, but won't drive one. I think they make their own materials for personal use, but don't seem to mind using whatever materials they're provided with off the reservation.

I'll have to do some research, but I don't think they do much tax paying, either.


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

seeyou said:


> They use power tools run off of a generator. They just won't hook into the grid. They like Dewalt tools around here. They'll ride in a car, but won't drive one. I think they make their own materials for personal use, but don't seem to mind using whatever materials they're provided with off the reservation.
> 
> I'll have to do some research, but I don't think they do much tax paying, either.


 
Thats odd I didnt think they used any power. Who doesnt like dewalt screw guns! Funny how they will ride in a car and use materials that mas made with power and use power but not hook up in the grid. Odd...


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Actually Grant, they pay income taxes like everyone else. They are exempt in most states from paying W/C as they would never collect.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

1985gt said:


> Thats odd I didnt think they used any power. Who doesnt like dewalt screw guns! Funny how they will ride in a car and use materials that mas made with power and use power but not hook up in the grid. Odd...


Well this thread has gotten hijacked way off course.

Apparently, it varies from order to order, but not plugging into the grid provides separation from the rest of the world. Some Amish use solar power as well as generators. They don't accept Social Security, so they don't pay those taxes. Their children are home schooled, so they don't pay school taxes in most instances. They use telephones, but not in the home. Most communities have "phone booths" available, but they are someplace where it is not very convenient to keep usage minimal. 

They take trains. I've been trains where there were probably 5 Amish to every "Englisher" as they call us. They use gas powered lawnmowers and the likes, but not tractors. It's not so much that they've completely rejected technology as they've rejected technology that creates "one-upmanship" between individuals or forces them to become intertwined in everyday "English" life. The one's that I've met are not very conversational if you want to talk about anything other than hybrid seeds or artificial insemination. Those two topics seem to dominate their conversation.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

The ag panels are the new asphalt shingle for homes around here.
Havent done much but theres a lot of growth. Price them up every once in a while.




> if you mount the metal z purlins all going in the same direction the whole assembly will ''flex'' in the same direction putting less stress on the screw and the panel,reducing hole elongation and screw backout


Is this by experience or reading?.

If a fexible z purlin was that flexible it would be a thinner gauge. Thinner gauge would mean less holding power for wind uplift. Metal purlins are usualy thicker and formed for ridigity. Metal panels I feel would still be held pretty rigidly.

Each metal system whether it be copper, steel, aluminum, other..still has good and bad ways to do them. 

I priced up a zinc roof a couple of years ago. Guy was realy interested in having me do it. I backed out due to not trusting him.
People who ended up doing it, kind of hacked it up, and actualy used a neoprene flashing for the sewer vents.
Its a shame actualy.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

Framer53 said:


> Actually Grant, they pay income taxes like everyone else. They are exempt in most states from paying W/C as they would never collect.


Not so. See my post above. 

They reject all forms of insurance, relying on the community instead.

I find them a fascinating bunch. They'd be a little more fascinating to me if they'd sidle up to a bar of soap a little more regularly, though.

Quick Amish story: About 10 years ago, I was going to a job site in Amish country and I had to pee. I pulled off the little one lane road I was on and started peeing. Suddenly I heard this deep bass thumping along with what sounded like horse clip clopping. I finished peeing and hopped back in the truck just as an Amish buggy came around the curve driven by a teenager. He had a battery powered sound system with a big sub woofer box in the back. He was rocking the woods with some Snoop Dogg. I wish I'd gotten a picture.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

red_cedar said:


> The ag panels are the new asphalt shingle for homes around here.
> Havent done much but there's a lot of growth. Price them up every once in a while.
> 
> 
> ...


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

red_cedar said:


> The ag panels are the new asphalt shingle for homes around here.
> Havent done much but theres a lot of growth. Price them up every once in a while.
> 
> 
> ...


I think that's recommended procedure for Rheinzink pre-weathered. They don't recommend soldering that stuff. I met with their rep a time or or two and the more I learned about it, the less impressed I was. Not much cheaper than copper with a different set of rules to learn. I've used it for a couple of small things, but I don't think I'll push it much.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

it is a beautiful metal when it weathers a little though,you find brittleness a problem cu?


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> it is a beautiful metal when it weathers a little though,*you find brittleness a problem* cu?


The stuff I've used was maybe a little softer than sheet copper. I was kind of surprised. The pre-weathered stuff feels a little more brittle. I've only used 4-5 sheets of it.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

seeyou said:


> I think that's recommended procedure for Rheinzink pre-weathered. They don't recommend soldering that stuff. I met with their rep a time or or two and the more I learned about it, the less impressed I was. Not much cheaper than copper with a different set of rules to learn. I've used it for a couple of small things, but I don't think I'll push it much.


It solders like lead, easy to burn though. In colder weather its brittle and can tear. Ive done some small things with it. No standing moisture, it will 'white rust'
I was at a rheinzink seminar and they ( german guy from the factory ) were soldering the gutters. I'll check their website. Panels on job I priced were very wide and you could see the point of mechanical seaming follow down the panels. huge looking flashings. It looked like bad painted steel details, huge ridge cap, maybe 12 inch on each side showing all kinds of waviness. Has a high expansion and contraction rate, so I dont understand everything being so big.
Ive got the VM Zinc details saved on the computer, Ill check.

I drove by once and just noticed quick things as I went by. Ill look sometime at the details. A metal like that should have nice details, not polebarn details. If the neoprene flashing is suggested, whats that tell you. Cant imagine it being the preferred way, seeing its big in Europe. All the roofs in Paris France are zinc. 
After I quit talking to the guy he was kind of stalking me some. 20 -25 phone calls a day....stopping at my house, felt kind of weird.


Just checked the details, all kinds of soldering. 
If you guys want, I could try and post a couple

One of the things I did with zinc was to fabricate the base with a rounded trim, It was for a 'castle, weathervane made from lead coated copper, from a kind of famous metal scupturer, now deceased.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

red_cedar said:


> It solders like lead, easy to burn though. In colder weather its brittle and can tear. Ive done some small things with it. No standing moisture, it will 'white rust'
> I was at a rheinzink seminar and they ( german guy from the factory ) were soldering the gutters. I'll check their website. Panels were very wide and you could see the point of mechanical seaming follow down the panels. huge looking flashings. *It looked like bad painted steel details, huge ridge cap, maybe 12 inch on each side showing all kinds of waviness.* Has a high expansion and contraction rate, so I dont understand everything being so big.
> Ive got the VM Zinc details saved on the computer, Ill check.
> 
> ...


Same thing I thought. To me, the beauty of a copper roof lies mostly in the intricate details you can't do with painted steel. I was looking at zinc as a second old school option.

Must have been the same rep that contacted me. He called and called until he finally wore me down and I agreed to meet with him. Wasted half of my day and never offered to take me to lunch or anything. Kept calling afterwards so I finally blocked his number ( I love Google Voice). I looked for his card just now, but I've lost it. Trying to remember his name. He was based in Chicago or Milwaukee, IIRC.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

[quote=red_cedar;1168008.




Is this by experience or reading?.


reading actually Red,i have people that hit the next page button for me while i study up on metal roofing and mess with guys on here:shifty:


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

seeyou said:


> Same thing I thought. To me, the beauty of a copper roof lies mostly in the intricate details you can't do with painted steel. I was looking at zinc as a second old school option.
> 
> Must have been the same rep that contacted me. He called and called until he finally wore me down and I agreed to meet with him. Wasted half of my day and never offered to take me to lunch or anything. Kept calling afterwards so I finally blocked his number ( I love Google Voice). I looked for his card just now, but I've lost it. Trying to remember his name. He was based in Chicago or Milwaukee, IIRC.


Cant remember the reps name off hand, but Lake Zurich, IL or somewhere close to there, pretty sure he calls home. 
A few towns away from me, back in the late 1880 early 1900's, a zinc mill was there. Shipped zinc all over the world.

The guy that was hounding me was the guy I didnt want to do the job for.
Looking back, I probably should have handled it differently.



> I was looking at zinc as a second old school option.


Still is an old school option.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

red_cedar said:


> Cant remember the reps name off hand, but* Lake Zurich, IL* or somewhere close to there, pretty sure he calls home.
> A few towns away from me, back in the late 1880 early 1900's, a zinc mill was there. Shipped zinc all over the world.
> 
> *The guy that was hounding me was the guy I didnt want to do the job for.*
> ...


Yeah, that's the same rep. I misunderstood, but the rep annoyed me.

Yeah, I know it's still an option, but it's not one anyone seems too interested in buying. That "brittle when it's cold" thing bothers me some. We seem to get our biggest jobs when the weather's the worst. I just turned in a $212K roof bid yesterday. Probably break ground in July/August and be ready for us (if we get it) about Dec 24th. I'm gonna stick with copper for now.


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## Roofmaster417 (Jun 8, 2010)

This picture is from a metal roof that I did a repair on yesterday.The roof was 12 years old and the customer had a tree limb fall on the ridge,I replaced the ridge.

The fastener on the left was the 12 year and the one on the right is the new.The washer was exposed to sunlight and the elements.The new fastener has a flare and the washer isn't exposed as much as the previous was.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Sometimes, I have to wonder....:whistling




Renegade said:


> You are mentioning exposed fasteners. Putting cheap metal on over a brand new shingle roof? That's like putting linoleum over marble flooring. There are many different types of metal roofing with major differences between types. I'd like to know what kind of system he plans on covering it with before saying anything about it. Except that I know if he's planning on a cheap, exposed fastener rolled-rib he's insane.


I guess I am insane after installing a few hundred "cheap, exposed fastener rolled roofs".....did it ever occur to you that 90% of the job is the quality of the install? 



1985gt said:


> Standing seam = no exposed fasteners
> 
> Probably a R panel or coragated panel. They are ok wouldnt be something I would put on a house. The washers will generally hold up if not over driven like stated before.
> .



Another statement that just doesn't toe the line. If you follow the market, especially in the southern and western states, you will find the cost of roofing, and insurance makes the panel roof systems a viable alternative...whether your taste in the customer's home is met or not. I tell customers it is your home, don't worry about the opinions of others who are not paying the bills, like insurance, or maybe the $700 a square for architectural metal roofs.....



seeyou said:


> This is not a hard fast rule, but more than likely an exposed fastener roof will have a polyester finish. A hidden fastener roof will more likely have a kynar finish which is much more durable. If the roof panels have striations, it's usually a thinner gauge than smooth panels.


And your comment.....as I have stated before, after a few hundred roofs, I have yet to see any "polyester" painted material....and the insurance industry typically calls for 26 gauge as the standard. 

Here is an exert from one of our suppliers: Signature® 300 coatings are specified by leading architects and used by manufacturers of metal roof panels, curtain wall and other building products as a long-life exterior finish for Galvalume® and galvanized steel substrates.* The liquid coating is factory-applied and oven-backed on properly prepared and primed substrates*. Signature® 300 coatings typically are used as exterior finishes for metal roofing, siding, fascia, curtain wall, spandrel paneling and column covers.. The building components can be post-formed from pre-coated stock. Signature® 300 coatings are based on *70% KYNAR® 500 or HYLAR*® 5000 PVDF fluoropolymer resin.



seeyou said:


> I've never seen an exposed fastener roof last more than about 10-12 years without some sort of major problem. Finish failure or hole wallowing or both. *But that type of roof is more likely to be installed by someone with minimal or no experience and a lot of the fastener problems and leaks are due to installer error*.
> 
> I'd think twice before installing exposed fastener metal over finished ceilings. There are lots of better, less expensive alternatives, IMHO. For barns, shops, sheds, etc, it's good stuff.


Again....you are referring to me as someone with "minimal experience"? And we have exposed fastener roofs with a history going back 30 years now....combine that with the insurance savings of 25% on average over that lifetime, and how many composition roofs will you have replaced? 



boman47k said:


> My question is about the rubber washers on the screws drying out and causing leaks. I have heard they will dry out and cause problems.
> 
> Comments?


It is all about the install. On the classic rib roof panels, which make up most of the residential roof installs in my region, we use a 2-1/4 inch wood grip screw (specifically for use with a wood deck, of through a layer of composition shingles) and shoot them through the ribs....at the high point, rows about 3 to 4 feet apart. The eave screw row is shot either side of the ribs, and we refer to this as the wind screw row. The trim can be installed with the wood grips, and lap screws as needed. 

The bottom line with roofs and metal is quality....workmanship, ability, and product knowledge......not speculation, "I have seen", and humble opinions. 

The roof below is a 40 year paint, 26 gauge, exposed fastener.....on a new 3800 sq/ft. home. Want to tell me about solar gain, or how it will be replaced every 5 years due to weather in Oklahoma? I will let you in on another fact: With the cost of composition shingles running $90 a square in this area, metal roofs like this one are comparable, and save money........but maybe you guys still think only barns deserve this? *Change with the times, and market. *


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

as some may know, I live in a snow belt. Approx 20 miles north of me most roffing has turned to metal with the same roof as Jay installs as the snow doesn't sit on it too long.

By the way, average snowfall exceeds 300 inches a year.

The key to installing the roofs is to not over drive the screws. I have several roofs that are over 30 years old with no problems. I think you guys are elitists when you don't like the corrugated metal. I don't have it on my roof, but if I lived where snow fall was 300+ a year, I would.:thumbsup:


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Here is a modified standing seam, 26 gauge, still has exposed fasteners at the eave and trim lines, and this roof had an installed price of $33,400 on 90 squares......and boys, this is a 750k home. 

And...if I didn't believe in what I do, would I install it on my home? This is R Panel.....and you can call my home a barn if you like. http://www.contractortalk.com/attac...l-icf-new-home-thread-griffin-start-00212.jpg


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I hope you "experts" don't take this the wrong way, but misinformation, repeated as "factual" is where a lot of guys lose the big picture. 

Where in the rule book of construction, does it say your "tastes" should be what you sell the customer on? 

If a customer calls you and says they want a metal roof, and have a budget that would fit with a panelized roof, would you start out with selling the job by saying " it would be ok for a barn, but not a house" and then lose the job....because you do not know enough about the product? 

I don't have any idea what a lot of you do about keeping up with products and information, but I actually spend a few hours every week, keeping up with industry news, and read "Metal Architecture" and "Metal Roofing" every month....

So the next time some of you see a "barn roof" on a home and think about how ugly it is....or how cheap the homeowners may be...think about this: I try and sell metal on every new home we build....we place a solar guard under the panels to reduce heat gain....and as in my new home.....90 degrees outside, 68 inside...with no AC running. 30 to 40 degrees less attic temps in stick framed homes is not unusual. 


Change with the times people.....learn and adapt. But if you don't know about the product, don't post crap and call it information.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

*Again....you are referring to me as someone with "minimal experience"? And we have exposed fastener roofs with a history going back 30 years now....combine that with the insurance savings of 25% on average over that lifetime, and how many composition roofs will you have replaced? *

*And your comment.....as I have stated before, after a few hundred roofs, I have yet to see any "polyester" painted material....and the insurance industry typically calls for 26 gauge as the standard. 

Here is an exert from one of our suppliers: Signature® 300 coatings are specified by leading architects and used by manufacturers of metal roof panels, curtain wall and other building products as a long-life exterior finish for Galvalume® and galvanized steel substrates. The liquid coating is factory-applied and oven-backed on properly prepared and primed substrates. Signature® 300 coatings typically are used as exterior finishes for metal roofing, siding, fascia, curtain wall, spandrel paneling and column covers.. The building components can be post-formed from pre-coated stock. Signature® 300 coatings are based on 70% KYNAR® 500 or HYLAR® 5000 PVDF fluoropolymer resin.
*
Didn't intend to diminish your skill or knowledge, but tha*t *pretty much exemplifies the difference in local markets. We have several factories in a 100 mile radius that only sell polyester coated steel. My main supplier offers numerous exposed fastener profiles in polyester and a few in kynar. They offer numerous profiles in hidden fastener kynar and none in polyester. That pretty much mirrors what I see in the field locally and that's all I can speak of intelligently. I guess I should have qualified my statements better. I'll stand by my statements as fact, locally. I have replaced numerous polyester finish roofs due to both finish failure and poor installation. Here's one - there's a couple of pics of the finish failure included:
http://www.contractortalk.com/members/seeyou-37707/albums/copper-roof-project/




*
*


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Roofmaster417 said:


> This picture is from a metal roof that I did a repair on yesterday.The roof was 12 years old and the customer had a tree limb fall on the ridge,I replaced the ridge.
> 
> The fastener on the left was the 12 year and the one on the right is the new.The washer was exposed to sunlight and the elements.The new fastener has a flare and the washer isn't exposed as much as the previous was.



The screws you have pictured are "drillers" or self tapping screws for attachment to metal. I have seen a few "roofers" use screws like this to shoot a metal roof to a wood deck...I presume you had a metal structure underneath? 


These are metal to wood: http://www.bestmaterials.com/woodgrip-screws-538.html


These are what we use on steel buildings: http://www.thesitebox.com/screws/tek-screws.aspx

Usually painted, with washers.


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## CHCROOFING (Apr 8, 2011)

You guys act like roof barns on houses are something new.........have you all never been to Virginia & Kentucky...how about Amish country??? These people have been putting barn roofs on shacks for years.....you guys didnt reinvent the wheel  The reason they used barn metal on roofs is because it is CHEAP.

Changing with the times would be installing a hidden fastener system. Barn roofing has been around since 1920's.....maybe longer, so continue back half a century in time! The only thing that has changed is the coating and screws......that's it.

I am not saying Pro-Rib on a house is wrong........it just isn't modern or "new" by any means. It may work on an old style house....and look ok, but it just doesn't look good on a modern house. 

Why put 1,000's of holes in the metal if you don't have to?


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

CHCROOFING said:


> You guys act like roof barns on houses are something new.........have you all never been to Virginia & Kentucky...how about Amish country??? These people have been putting barn roofs on shacks for years.....you guys didnt reinvent the wheel  The reason they used barn metal on roofs is because it is CHEAP.
> 
> Changing with the times would be installing a hidden fastener system. Barn roofing has been around since 1920's.....maybe longer, so continue back half a century in time! The only thing that has changed is the coating and screws......that's it.
> 
> ...


Tin roofing started in Virginia.. Another of Mr. Jeffersons accomplishments.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

joasis;1177571
[B said:


> Where in the rule book of construction, does it say your "tastes" should be what you sell the customer on? [/B]


But, I think all of us have some sort of bias in our nature. We're more comfortable with what we have hands on experience with. My experience is dealing with leaky, flaky polyester exposed fastener roofs. We've installed some and have had no problems, but we're detail oriented as you are. And we don't get called to fix the ones that don't have problems.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

Framer53 said:


> *I think you guys are elitists when you don't like the corrugated metal. *:thumbsup:


The only thing I'm elitist about is leaky, failing, fairly new roofs. We do have lots of historic overlays here and whether we wanted to or not, we wouldn't be allowed to install roll formed metal in them. Several of the guys that bought pan machines locally a few years ago have sold them because they can't use them on these old houses.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

If the overall discussion is to make any sense it has to stay within the realm of a particular roof panel. If I say, " Here is a blind fastened, mechanically locked standing seam and here is an exposed fastener standing rib. Which one is better?" the honest answer is the former.

If I say, "I need to cover 10K sq ft and I have $30K to spend, which one is better?" then the answer becomes the standing rib because somehow I need to cover the entire roof.

Either roof requires proper installation to reach its suggested performance level.


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

I will say this, I have personally installed 1,000's of squares of R panels, as both siding and roofing. To wood, and to metal. I have also personally installed 1,000's of squares of standing seam roofs some straight some radius, Ive even installed it as siding. If I was trying to sell them I would price them both, explain the plus and negitive of each type of system and let the customer decide. I do how ever like the look of R panels on "cabins". Installer error is a problem with any system, we all know that.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

CHCROOFING said:


> I am not saying Pro-Rib on a house is wrong........it just isn't modern or "new" by any means. It may work on an old style house....and look ok, *but it just doesn't look good on a modern house. *
> 
> Why put 1,000's of holes in the metal if you don't have to?



Says who? You? I will remember this when I sell a new home with a metal roof. :whistling

And.....you could say the same thing about composition roofs, yes? Placing thousands of nails in the shingles? Good grief. 


Metal roofs, including many styles of galvanized tin and sheet metal with rolled patterns have been around since the turn of the century. You are correct that we have improved fasteners.....when I was a kid, we still nailed down corrugated metal on barns with lead washer nails, twist shanks....look how far we have come....it hasn't been that long ago since Kynar and the various improved paint processes came along and metal took on a new life. 


Now, here is the real rub.......in my region....we get storms that will total a roof sometimes every year. I read not long ago that the insurance industry was actually looking at jacking premiums by double in Oklahoma because of the loss rate.....*meaning they were paying for a new roof on every home about every seven years*. 

Now......many years ago, I was asked by a guy to install a metal roof....simple barn red, classic rib roof. The cost to install that roof, labor and all....less then $100 a square. His home owner's insurance dropped by 1/2. In 4 years, his roof had paid for itself, and his electric bill in the summer went down, the home was easier to cool. 


I bet he could give a damn less what anyone thinks of his metal roof. For several years, I did nothing but install those roofs.....until virtually every roofer int his state became "experts" in metal and roofs......now, I pretty much do only new construction.......and if a customer likes it, who cares what anyone else thinks? :thumbsup:


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## CHCROOFING (Apr 8, 2011)

joasis said:


> You are correct that we have improved fasteners.....when I was a kid, we still nailed down corrugated metal on barns with lead washer nails, twist shanks....


Just because you are "seasoned" don't make you right all the time......in fact, that explains a lot!



joasis said:


> And.....you could say the same thing about composition roofs, yes? Placing thousands of nails in the shingles? Good grief.


How many nails do you leave exposed on a comp roof??? I would hope only a few hundred, no?  

And don't try telling me steel roofs don't get damage from hail.....just don't even try it.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

CHCROOFING said:


> Just because you are "seasoned" don't make you right all the time......in fact, that explains a lot!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seasoned? You bet. :thumbsup: 

You are trying to pass yourself off as what? An expert, who wants to set us straight on metal roofing, and further, you can tell us all about what is right and wrong? :no:

Why not address the issue of the cost savings, the lowering of premiums, and then how good installs don't meet your lofty standards or "tastes" about what looks "good" on other people's homes...the people who hire the contractors. 

I am sure you offer your "expert opinion" and advice on products, but do you really feel you are qualified to determine what is best, for any market, or any customer?  Let me be clear: Anyone who makes a stupid statement like this: *Why put 1,000's of holes in the metal if you don't have to?* without understanding or accepting that there are hundreds of thousands of roofs done like this...quality jobs with no problems, and there are seasoned pro's out here who forgot more about roofing then you might ever learn is simple arrogance. 

Your statement about hail damage and metal roofs highlights what you really do not know. The insurers issue a certificate that we, the installers, sign, and the homeowner signs, that has what is termed an "appearance waiver", or in other terms, the homeowner accepts that the insurance company will not replace or repair a metal panel roof unless it is damaged and that chalking, or dents from hail that do not result in roof failure are not going to get a new roof. Hence, the savings......and yes, we have hail that dents metal roofs....metal panels on decking will show the dents.....but if it is that bad, every composition roof in the path of the storm *WILL be destroyed*, and the people with metal roofs may have small dents, and much lower premiums. :thumbsup: 

And finally, not every customer can afford a standing seam, or snap panel roof, let alone a stone coated steel or aluminum metal system.....so in your "opinion", they simply should go with 3 tabs because you want sound like a smart ass by quoting dumb lines like having "thousands of holes" in a new roof?  

Maybe....you can point a few of us seasoned pro's to the book of rules, or perhaps articles you have published on this subject? Or.....in Indiana or Indianapolis, you know what customers in the south and west need and want? :no: Otherwise, you will not win any debates.


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