# Murder: What's the best grinder?



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Got your attention, didn't I? :laughing:

We're tuckpointing an entire brick building that occupies about 1/3 of a city block. The first step, of course, is grinding out all of the old mortar. 

We've had two guys working on the first ("learning") section for a couple of weeks, and so far they've burnt up a Makita, a Ryobi and a Hitachi 4 1/2" grinder. Those were already fairly well beat up, so not much surprise. FWIW, the Makita lasted the longest, and can actually be resuscitated for a while with new brushes--though the armature's about half gone.

I'm wondering if anyone has done the number crunching and usage to determine what grinder would be best for sacrificial application on a job like this. We fully expect to waste a few at least, but there has to be a best balance between price, longevity and usability (no point in having one that won't die if it kills the user's hands).

Anybody been there?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Get one of these and hook it to a shop vac, last for a few more jobs.

http://www.google.com/products/cata..._catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1#ps-sellers


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Get one of these and hook it to a shop vac, last for a few more jobs.


Seen it, thought about it, and decided not to go for it (though that could change). Our reasoning was that 
(a) we'd wind up buying just as many shop vacs as cheap grinders, 
(b) we'd constantly be stopping to clean the vac filters, 
(c) the location/environment doesn't demand dust control, and 
(d) there are a lot of inside corners and doo-dad designs set into the brickwork that just can't be negotiated with a guarded blade.

Rebuttal? Please?


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

I've put my Hilti grinder through hell, and it still works just fine.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Get the bosch and use a Multimaster type tool for the inside corners/hard to reach spots.

The only reason I suggest hooking to a vac is you will greatly extend the life of the tool.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Get the bosch and use a Multimaster type tool for the inside corners/hard to reach spots.
> 
> The only reason I suggest hooking to a vac is you will greatly extend the life of the tool.


Absolutely no question that a vac would extend the tool life quite significantly. But even assuming the vacs don't die, a big part of the equation is the man-hours involved. As I said, you'd constantly be stopping to clean filters (I know, I tried it with a _freehand_ vac), and there's no way on earth that you could "Multimaster" stuff nearly as fast as just plunging a 4 1/2" blade in.

As it is, we fully expect cold weather to stop us long before the job's done. Which is fine by me--I'm past ready for a break right now!


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I'd probably say a Water/Metabo they seem to have the high-end grinder market in my town.

I have a Hilti 4.5" grinder but have never done extensive grinding with it, only short grindes. Even hilti only gives their grinders a 1 year warrenty due to the conditions they work in.

Maby the 9.99 harbor freight may be in order, a grinder is a pretty simple tool how could a 400 dollar one be that much better?



> The only reason I suggest hooking to a vac is you will greatly extend the life of the tool.


Most things I've ground having a vac hose would be a real inconvinience..but your right about the extended life.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I've put my Hilti grinder through hell, and it still works just fine.


Definition of hell? How many day's worth at 8 hrs/day?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Inner10 said:


> Maby the 9.99 harbor freight may be in order, a grinder is a pretty simple tool how could a 400 dollar one be that much better?


I can vouch for the fact that when I replaced my Makita with a Ryobi, I had to put up with significantly more noise and vibration. And the Ryobi isn't as comfortable to hold all day long.

That's one of the balances I was talking about--if it's uncomfortable to use, you're not going to get as much production out of it due to the need for breaks.


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## john5mt (Jan 21, 2007)

Bosch or metabo....not made in china.....prolly last ya


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

The com and brushes are going to take the worst beating. Bearings would also be the next thing to fail. I would just get a cheap makita grinder as they are built pretty solid and then if you have any issues blow them out and try and return them. I returned a dewalt angle grinder in the UK years ago and it was only a few days old but we was using it to chop out a fiberglass mold. Lasted just 2 days of hard use and they wouldn't warranty it. They said that it was designed to have a life expectancy of about 60hrs of non stop use!! later found out that nearly all of them have the same clause in the warranty.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

I've had good luck with Makita doing similar work. At one time HD, used to sell a two-pack of Makita's in my area. 

Never understood why, unless they were marketing to guys like us who were going to tear all heck out of the machine...


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## csv (Aug 18, 2009)

I used a 4" dewalt for grinding on railroad car trucks before welding them back up and then grind them smooth. talking 4 hours a day of heavy grinding. It lasted for over a year. Also used a Ingersoll-Rand like this http://www.ingersollrandproducts.com/IS/Product.aspx-am_en-104 for the same thing, this was the go to grinding when the weather was warm


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## jiffy (Oct 21, 2007)

One of the best grinders on the market is the Makita 9564CV. I say this because of what it is commonly used for. This grinder is typically the grinder of choice by marble and granite contractors. They can polish, grind, cut granite and marble all day long and that is not an easy task. It is not a cheap grinder by any means, but longevity is the idea.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

A big thanks to everyone for the comments!



jiffy said:


> It is not a cheap grinder by any means, but longevity is the idea.


Yes, longevity is way up there, but what I'm not really seeing from any of the responses here is anyone who's actually crunched the numbers for a good-sized project and come up with the best *overall* balance between:

Price
Longevity
Usability (= worker productivity)

I'd be happy to pay $200 per grinder for each man if I was satisfied it would last through weeks of grinding 8 hrs/day with good productivity. But if I can get the same production from five $30 grinders per man, I'd just as soon pocket the savings. 

Know whut I mean, Vern? :thumbsup:


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

First, using a grinder for tuck pointing is a whole different animal than grinding metal. You may have gotten a better idea of what grinder to buy if this was posted in the masonry section (but I do understand why you posted it here). My grinders are used for about half masonry grinding and half metal cutting. I had a Hitachi that recently died on me. Lasted a few years but I didn't use it all that much. Over all it was a decent grinder. I have a Hilti that gets used often and has held up very well. It is a much better grinder than the Hitachi. 

Ask any tuck pointer and they will tell you a grinder is a disposable tool, but I think you know that already. Any grinder that you choose I would recommend stopping very half hour to hour and blowing out the inside with your compressor, the dust really kills those things. At the end of the day give it a few drops of oil inside then run it for a minute.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

NJ Brickie said:


> You may have gotten a better idea of what grinder to buy if this was posted in the masonry section (but I do understand why you posted it here).


Yeah, I dithered over that a bit, even maybe crossposting, but with the brilliant thread title I figured you guys would pop in anyway. :laughing:



> Any grinder that you choose I would recommend stopping very half hour to hour and blowing out the inside with your compressor, the dust really kills those things. At the end of the day give it a few drops of oil inside then run it for a minute.


We do blow them out every so often, though I'm not convinced it really does all that much good. It's the floating dust that does the damage, not so much what's stuck to the surfaces already.

At the risk of appearing unintelligent, I'm not sure where I'd put any oil without disassembling the tool. And wouldn't that be prone to providing more area for the dust to stick to?


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Pneumatic impractical?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

neolitic said:


> Pneumatic impractical?


Yeah, pretty much. We're doing some of the work off scaffolding, some on a 45' lift. We try to keep the two away from each other so the bottom guy doesn't get rained on too much. The lift has an electric line built into the boom with an outlet on the platform, so you don't have to deal with dangling extension cords.

There's a lot of foot traffic in the area, and it's pretty much the worst part of the city. There's a shooting there every week or two. MOF, we heard one take place just a block away three weeks ago.

I'd rather replace an extension cord than air hoses and/or a compressor. :laughing:

On the bright side, so far we've been there for two months now and have had no issues whatsoever with any local characters. Of course, we're careful to start early and finish early, and leave absolutely nothing on site overnight. :thumbsup:


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Yes you would need to unscrew and slide the body off of the grinder to oil it. Otherwise you would be giving the dust a better place to get stuck. But over all there is no good solution to make a grinder last while doing pointing work. I know they are expensive but my vote is still for Hilti.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

neolitic said:


> Just leafing through the latest
> WT flier, and those things jumped up
> and said, "Tin!" :laughing:


I do appreciate your thoughtfulness. Good job digging up this old thread! :thumbsup:

That was without a doubt the most tedious six weeks of my entire life. If I ever post that I've started another job like that, please just come shoot me.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Tinstaafl said:


> I do appreciate your thoughtfulness. Good job digging up this old thread! :thumbsup:
> 
> That was without a doubt the most tedious six weeks of my entire life. If I ever post that I've started another job like that, please just come shoot me.


At your service. :notworthy


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I received a PM this morning from someone who ran across this thread and is going to be doing a similar job. He wanted to know if I had any tips to make it go smoothly. I'm all about sharing (unless you're my direct competition), so here's what I told him:

Yes, we used diamond blades, and there was very little difference between the cheap and expensive ones. Save yourself some money there.

Don't waste your time with paper dust masks. Get good ones with replaceable cartridges.

We tried safety glasses, full faceshields and goggles. The goggles seemed to work best.

Try to find contractor packs of 2-3 grinders; you'll go through a few. I had an offer from a tool supplier to cut me a pretty good deal on blades and grinders in quantity at one point, but unfortunately it came too late to take advantage of for this job. Check around.

I don't think that giving your grinder a rest to cool down is going to make any significant difference in its longevity. Ours never got hot to speak of; they just wore out brushes and gears.

Lastly, here's your died-and-went-to-heaven tip: Don't rely on random breezes to get the dust out of your face. Set a decent sized fan right beside you, blowing across the workface. Otherwise, on a dead calm day you'll constantly be stopping because you can't even see the bricks.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> I'd probably say a Water/Metabo they seem to have the high-end grinder market in my town.


IMO...they do everywhere.
Hilti has the rotary hammer market,
skil the worm drive
makita the "drill"
milwaukee the industrial market.

People doing granite slab love metabo and second, makita. Bosch and the rest trail. It's best to label read as a lot of....say bosch is now made in china.

I have a Hilti 4.5" grinder but have never done extensive grinding with it, only short grindes. Even hilti only gives their grinders a 1 year warrenty due to the conditions they work in.

Maby the 9.99 harbor freight may be in order, a grinder is a pretty simple tool how could a 400 dollar one be that much better?



Most things I've ground having a vac hose would be a real inconvinience..but your right about the extended life.[/quote]


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## Elyrain (Dec 17, 2007)

Make sure your guys aren't putting their hands/gloves over the ventilation holes on the grinders. That'll doesn't help at all. Also, they have to find the happy medium to where your grinding enough off, without working the machine to hard, it doesn't take much force at all. A 7-9" grinder is optimal, but sucks to hold up all day.

That being said, I don't envy grinding vertically for days on end, I've done it and it sucks.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Good tips, but I think I'd have to dispute this:



Elyrain said:


> A 7-9" grinder is optimal, but sucks to hold up all day.


No disagreement on holding one all day--heck, a 4" gets old. But I'd only use a blade size like that on the horizontals. You just won't get deep enough on the verticals without dinging the bricks.


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## Elyrain (Dec 17, 2007)

Tinstaafl said:


> Good tips, but I think I'd have to dispute this:
> 
> 
> 
> No disagreement on holding one all day--heck, a 4" gets old. But I'd only use a blade size like that on the horizontals. You just won't get deep enough on the verticals without dinging the bricks.


 Keep in mind when I say grinder, I really mean sander. The "sander" versions you can adjust the speed, they are much easier to control then something going 10,000 rpms or whatever the grinders they go. I've used dewalt, makita, ect, they all burn out after a while. Just get the one on sale, or whatever your guys like the most. And pay for the warranty.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Elyrain said:


> The "sander" versions you can adjust the speed, they are much easier to control then something going 10,000 rpms or whatever the grinders they go.


I have to admit I haven't run across that. Variable speed would have to cost more. Do you feel that they last longer than fixed-speed grinders?


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## jiffy (Oct 21, 2007)

The Makita variable speed 4-1/2" grinder is the standard in the industry. It will hold up. That is why most marble and granite contractors use them. They aren't cheap throw away's though. Of course abuse is what kills most grinders.


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## stonelayer (Feb 21, 2009)

It seems to me then that on jobs like this the throw aways would be the way to go. Ive had $80 grinders and put them to the test on masonry and they passed, but the next time they were called for they layed down. 

Hmm, that statement doesnt just work for grinders.


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## TheToolMan (Feb 6, 2010)

CO762 said:


> IMO...they do everywhere.
> Hilti has the rotary hammer market, *<----Bosch*
> skil the worm drive*<---Disputable*
> makita the "drill"*<---And Grinders , Mitre Saws*
> milwaukee the industrial market. *<----You couldn't be more Wrong*


Just my Opinion really...


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

TheToolMan said:


> Just my Opinion really...


...and we all got them...me specially 

I talked with a makita engineer in a non-tool situation in a setting that no one knew his name. He laid out the differences and "whys" of some tools and I remember him mentioning skil for the saws. 

I agree about makita angle grinders as I have two and one is the makita SLS. My other is a dewalt that was given to me as a replacement, and that will soon burn out due to how it works/vibrates. Dewalt seems hit and miss in everything. Elaborating more, I'd say metabo rules the grinder market, but it's biggest drawback is they aren't in a lot of stores and seem to be more of a stone/tile thing.

I've worked in a few factories in the upper midwest (WI) and to a department, all of their "heavy tools" were milwaukee and air IR. Not a lot of "smaller hand tools" in that environment much like a contractor would use, so that may not be representative. Plus, the place was full of cheeseheads!


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## TheToolMan (Feb 6, 2010)

I haven't had the pleasure of trying a Metabo grinder, i used one of the cordless drills a few times, i was more than impressed with the torque and the overall "Smooth operation" of it. If the grinder is as good as the drill, then i'd be impressed.

As far as Industrial equipment, i've never seen Milwaukee in any of the factories i've worked in. Mostly Cleveland Presses a brand called Chicago and alot of King mostly brakes , and shears.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> As far as Industrial equipment, i've never seen Milwaukee in any of the factories i've worked in.


For stationary pneumatic tools are superior anyway, I think he was refering to something different when he said the "industrial market".

In commercial buildings I do see alot of Milwaukee band-saws and abrasive chop-saws but they by no means own the market.

Let's not let this thread get into a pissing-contest about which brand owns which market because that stems a never ending chicken and egg argument.

On the topic of grinders I find the price spread interesting:

HF, or in Canada we have Power Fist and Jobmate ~ $15

Hitachi, DeWalt, Makita, Bosch ~ $40 - $80

Hilti Fein, Walter, Metabo ~ $150 - $400

And they all have pretty similar warranties, anyone notice a serious enough difference between the models to warrant paying the dramatically high price for a Fein, instead of buying lets say a skid of DeWalt's?

Out of this bunch I've used quite a few cheapies and only decent ones were a Bosch (my old 4.5") and my newest a Hilti (4.5"). I think the Bosch and Hilti had slightly less vibration then the cheapie, but not having them side-by-side it could be in my head. I don't notice a big performance difference between the Bosch and Hilti.


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## TheToolMan (Feb 6, 2010)

> Hitachi, DeWalt, Makita, Bosch ~ $40 - $80




Come on man, seriously.
Makita grinders retail in my store from $150.00 for a cheap one to $289.00 .
I didn't even mention the 6 and 7".

DeWalt- $119.34 to $289.23

Hitachi-$66.53 - $169.30

Bosch has a couple for $240-$280

I retail these everyday i these are suggested lists.
I have the distributor price lists right in front of me.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I was referring to 4.5 - 5" grinders, I regularly see sets of 2 grinders (bosch, Dewalt, Makita) for 100 bucks at HD.

I'm and end user not a retailer like yourself therefore I have a much less informed view of prices...all I know is I could get a pack or 2 dewalt's for 80 bucks but if I want a Walter I'm looking at about 280.

So ignoring my horribly inaccurate prices tell me is there a large performance difference between the brands with the dramatic price differences?


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## TheToolMan (Feb 6, 2010)

I was only pricing 4" to 5" grinders .

HD has those blow-out sales when they bring skids full of tools and blow them out , cheap cheap, i was just giving everyday prices.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Ok using Amazon.com as my control and choosing all of the less expensive 4.5" angle grinders this is what I came up with:

Makita 53.49

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-9557PB...ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1267635686&sr=8-1

Bosch 69.14

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-1375A-2...ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1267635483&sr=8-5

Hitachi 41.21

http://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-G12SS...UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1267635529&sr=8-3-spell

Metabo 123.94

http://www.amazon.com/Metabo-W8-115...ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1267635558&sr=8-2

Fein 229.44

http://www.amazon.com/Fein-WSG-10-1...ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1267635588&sr=8-1

^^almost fits into my approximation


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## Rustbucket (May 22, 2009)

FWIW, I see a lot of Hilti stuff is even made in China these days. Mostly the smaller stuff, like small grinders and drywall screwdrivers and recips.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Yep, they have a couple factories in China IIRC that mainly make the fastners, I read the labels on my gear the other day and:

TE2A Hammer Drill - China
Auger Bits - France
SDS Bits - Germany
Bit Holder - Chec republic
Batteries - Poland
Impact - Switzerland

Their stuff is made all over the place.


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