# What's The Preferred Way To Water Proof Under Stone Veneer



## HemiRamOn22s (Apr 13, 2016)

This is my first post on this site. So just a quick background... My name is Matt and I own a Commercial Real Estate Development business with my father. I’m a Civil Engineer by trade and he is a licensed Electrician. Back in the late 80s he got into Commercial Real Estate Development and we have been doing it ever since. You name it, we can do it. Anything from site work, building construction, to interior fit out etc. 

Now to the long winded question (sorry in advance) 

Well to make a long story short I'm building a house for myself and I've always been one to try to stay ahead of the trends and with the way building codes are now I try to ask a few questions to avoid any costly mistakes. And any man/woman can admit we all make our fair share of mistakes along the way in the construction industry. 

We commonly use stone veneer as a wainscoting on houses and commercial buildings, never a two story gable wall. Typical practice over exterior sheathing has always been to Tyvek and then use 30# felt with a scratch coat and diamond wire mesh to allow the stone to stick. In the last few years with the popularity of Ice and Water/Snow shield on low sloping roofs contractors have begun using it on exterior walls as well. I've seen it applied on outside and inside corner because we know felt doesn’t work well in those areas. I've also seen the Tyvek lifted and a strip placed from the bottom foot of the exterior sheathing over the band board over the sill plate and overlapping the foundation by 6"-12" then replacing the Tyvek. 

Now to my question, after having a conversation with another contractor he suggested that I use ice/water shield over the entire two story gable wall to prevent any moisture from getting to the exterior sheathing. The wall faces West into the summer storms and driving rain so it doesn’t take much for the porous stone veneer to get soaked. In theory this might be a good idea but after thinking about it for a while I've begun to poke holes in the theory. The Tyvek and Felt paper are supposed to be semi breathable and impermeable to water droplets but not to vapor. The ice and water shield is not breathable and not permeable so if water was to find its way between the ice/water shield and the sheathing it could become a place for moisture/mold/rot with the way houses are insulated these days. 

In Kent County Delaware we follow IRBC 2012 which requires R21 in the walls and R49 in the ceiling. You have three/four options to insulate the walls. All of our exterior walls are 6" because of the insulation requirements. You can use R21 Fiberglass batts, you can use a vapor barrier and blow in fiberglass insulation (not very common), you can use 1" of closed cell spray foam with batts in front of that (Flash & Batt), or you can fill the entire cavity with 5.5" of open cell spray foam. The latter is becoming the preferred method with the stingy requirements caused by the blower door test because it is 95% air impermeable at 3.5” but it can still dry out if it was to ever get wet becasue it is semi moisture permeable. No you might ask why I’m talking about insulation but it’s important to consider the house as a system of components that work together. And some thought needs to go into what’s placed on both sides of the wall.

If I was to do closed cell spray foam or any combination of batts or blow in insulation I would say that the ice and water shield would a bad idea. But by using the open cell spray foam, if water was to penetrate to the exterior sheathing the sheathing could still dry from the outside to the inside preventing any rot or mold. 

I’m split 50/50 on whether I want to use ice/water shield on the entire 2 story gable wall, I’m not entirely convinced it’s the best method for water proofing behind the stone veneer. What’s everyone thoughts? What are contractors like you doing in the Northeastern part of the country? Sorry for the long winded post but I appreciate any comments. Thanks in advance. - Matt

There will be stone veneer under the covered porch as well as the two story gable wall to the right from the ground to the soffit. Picture attached for reference.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

A water drainage system is the only thing you should install on a project like that. Since your an engineer you can understand this im sure. 

https://www.mtidry.com/products/rainscreen-drainage-planes


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

This is the product the yard by me carries. I cant find it specifically, but there is a dimpled paper like tyvek that prevents the paper from being up against the plywood. I use that in conjunction. 

http://www.advancedbuildingproducts.com/mortairvent/


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Gotta agree with JBM...although I might use Keene rain screen and 2ply grade D paper.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Either the Delta-Foxx or Delta- Maxx would be my choices. Not saying the other options are wrong.



http://www.cosella-dorken.com/bvf-ca-en/products/wall_ext/wrb/index.php


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## HemiRamOn22s (Apr 13, 2016)

Very good information. It looks like I will be calling around tomorrow to see what I can source locally thats similar to the products you guys have suggested. I want to get this stuff installed before i install my siding so i can wrap it around the sides and overlap it with the J-Channel. I'll let you know what I find out! Thanks!


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## Framer87 (Dec 27, 2014)

Nice house BTW!


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

HemiRamOn22s said:


> Very good information. It looks like I will be calling around tomorrow to see what I can source locally thats similar to the products you guys have suggested. I want to get this stuff installed before i install my siding so i can wrap it around the sides and overlap it with the J-Channel. I'll let you know what I find out! Thanks!


I would lap the wrb but only install the rain screen where the stone goes.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

JBM said:


> I would lap the wrb but only install the rain screen where the stone goes.






My approach would be different. I would install the rain screens in both places. Rain screens are being talked about as the way to go under siding for the last 15-20 years,especially if the siding is some type of wood.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

fjn said:


> My approach would be different. I would install the rain screens in both places. Rain screens are being talked about as the way to go under siding for the last 15-20 years,especially if the siding is some type of wood.


It depends on the type of wood...cedar (red cedar, not sure about white cedar which is actually a larch or something) has tannins which dissolve tyvek. Not so with tar paper/felt....weren;t you the one that posted that article lol. Pine, Poplar and most of the other species are just fine.

Sidings have a built in drainage plane though so they don;t require an additional rain screen although it wouldn;t hurt except in cost. here rain screen is close to $1/sqft...same as cheap vinyl siding..add in the labour (which wouldn't be a ton but it would be something) and you'd be closing in on $1.50 sqft or maybe $4000 for that house??

But the added cost under the thin veneer only makes sense. The Vancouver syndrome needs to be a thing of the past


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> It depends on the type of wood...cedar (red cedar, not sure about white cedar which is actually a larch or something) has tannins which dissolve tyvek. Not so with tar paper/felt....weren;t you the one that posted that article lol. Pine, Poplar and most of the other species are just fine.
> 
> Sidings have a built in drainage plane though so they don;t require an additional rain screen although it wouldn;t hurt except in cost. here rain screen is close to $1/sqft...same as cheap vinyl siding..add in the labour (which wouldn't be a ton but it would be something) and you'd be closing in on $1.50 sqft or maybe $4000 for that house??
> 
> But the added cost under the thin veneer only makes sense. The Vancouver syndrome needs to be a thing of the past






True,cedar and redwood attack tyvek way more than felt,however,we are talking the whole picture here. We are talking the extended life cycle of the siding and especially the coating (paint and stain) Also,there are more ways to skin the cat and create a rain screen than the brillo pad. A simple and probably more cost effective way is to nail 3/8" pressure treated plywood strips over the studs. They only need enough nails to hold them in place,the siding nails will do the rest. Several companies make bug proof vents that fit between the battens bot top and bottom to complete the installation.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Here is an article that discusses the need and nuances of rain screens.



http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/all-about-rainscreens


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

fjn said:


> Also,there are more ways to skin the cat and create a rain screen than the brillo pad. .


But the brillo pad was what JBM was talking about


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> But the brillo pad was what JBM was talking about





Exactly,that is why I offered a more cost effective (and prevalent) approach.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

He is doing vinyl. But Im not a siding person, so I defer hahah


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

But, once we work on the 2+ mill homes, they all have the yellow mesh under the shingle siding.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

JBM said:


> But, once we work on the 2+ mill homes, they all have the yellow mesh under the shingle siding.






Well,I think with shingle siding,the brillo pads are the only possibility.


But what the heck are shingles doing on a 2 + million dollar house anyway ????????


Are you saying out East 2 million just gets you a fire trap ?:laughing:


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## HemiRamOn22s (Apr 13, 2016)

Vinyl Siding. Ceder siding was popular around this area in the early 90s. My parents have it on their house. They have to repaint/stain it every 4-5 years. 

I wanted to do Hardie board (concrete) but its so darn expensive. Would of cost me 3x as much. The house is a little under 3,300 Sq ft. Plus a 1,000 Sq ft garage and a 1700 Sq ft basement. 

When i originally talked to my stone guys he said he just uses a fancy 30# felt (he had a name for it) over the Tyvek and he will re-flash the windows. When i was on the phone with him i mentioned rain screen especially with the front of the house facing due West and he said oh yea i can definitely to that. Its a practice that is required in other areas that he works. But if i had no idea that it existed i wouldn't even know to ask. Unlike most sub contractors who push you to upgrade when its not really needed. I kinda appreciated that.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

This is what 2 mil. gets you in my neck of the woods. And it ain't a wooden shack disguised to look like a masonry building. It's solid all the way though and through.


http://www.lansingcutstone.com/com01.htm


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

fjn said:


> Exactly,that is why I offered a more cost effective (and prevalent) approach.


I took a look at the Delta Foxx and Delta Maxx, they looked like WRBs more than rain screens??


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

HemiRamOn22s said:


> Vinyl Siding. Ceder siding was popular around this area in the early 90s. My parents have it on their house. They have to repaint/stain it every 4-5 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> I took a look at the Delta Foxx and Delta Maxx, they looked like WRBs more than rain screens??





They are. We have two different things going on.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

fjn said:


> Well,I think with shingle siding,the brillo pads are the only possibility.
> 
> 
> But what the heck are shingles doing on a 2 + million dollar house anyway ????????
> ...


Its the cape cod look, people pay a lot of money for it lol


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

fjn said:


> This is what 2 mil. gets you in my neck of the woods. And it ain't a wooden shack disguised to look like a masonry building. It's solid all the way though and through.
> 
> 
> http://www.lansingcutstone.com/com01.htm


How you like this for 1.2

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...59,42.397727,-71.377316_rect/11_zm/?3col=true


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

JBM said:


> A water drainage system is the only thing you should install on a project like that. Since your an engineer you can understand this im sure.
> 
> https://www.mtidry.com/products/rainscreen-drainage-planes


That's the same product I was going to suggest. Excellent product, even better service, and they can ship it direct to your shop within days..... :thumbsup:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

JBM said:


> How you like this for 1.2
> 
> http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...59,42.397727,-71.377316_rect/11_zm/?3col=true






That is totally crazy,looks like a tract home in a cheap subdivision.

Oh well,the guy who coined the phrase "a fool and his money,are soon parted,was looking straight at the guy who forked over 1.2 mil for that shanty.:laughing:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

People will pay $500k for a POS in the right neighbourhood and tear it down and put up a semi, modern but just OK quality, and sell each half for $900k+ 

3 keys in real estate

1.Location
2.Location
3.Location


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

One member who's a roofer...Stephen H or something...he's posted pics of his town in Ohio...3000sqft turn of the century Tudors and they sell for $100k

Location, location, location


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

dom-mas said:


> One member who's a roofer...Stephen H or something...he's posted pics of his town in Ohio...3000sqft turn of the century Tudors and they sell for $100k
> 
> Location, location, location


I live in the same city. Two problems with those. One is that many are in semi distressed areas. The second problem is that the maintenance has not been kept up over the last century. There are still a few nice ones, but they are way more than 100k.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> One member who's a roofer...Stephen H or something...he's posted pics of his town in Ohio...3000sqft turn of the century Tudors and they sell for $100k
> 
> Location, location, location


Oh you mean Smiths Falls.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Yeah not tudors but Italianates...if you could just pick them up and move them anywhere else...


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