# On discouraging DIY electrical work...



## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

Electrical is not the most dangerous because there are to many x factors involved. BUT I do not know any electricians building decks or putting in sprinklers. But there are to many jack of all tradesman dabbing in electrical. Any idiot can make a light go on but only an electrician has the knowledge to do it right. Thats why he or she is an electrician. I do all the above mentioned in my own home but could never charge money for it!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Rob 53 said:


> I've always had a hard time with the idea that electrical was the most dangerous of all trades.


C'mon Rob... I'm trying to drum up business here for electrician's the world over. You're not helping my cause. Can't you help a brother out? :jester:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

A logger doing an electrical job on a crab boat would be considered the MOST dangerous job.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Mike, that would be a King crab boat out of AK, seen the vids. Here, drunks go for blue claws in beat up skiffs and if they sink, they can wade home.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

mdshunk said:


> C'mon Rob... I'm trying to drum up business here for electrician's the world over. You're not helping my cause. Can't you help a brother out? :jester:


No! Once i get my license I'm really going to spill the beans. They'll be giving the test in other languages. >You better go to bed MD. I'm the only one semi retired around here. I Think?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> A logger doing an electrical job on a crab boat would be considered the MOST dangerous job.


Now that's funny. Then again, if that logger electrician was working on a crab boat in a coal mine, that would be really dangerous. Especially if the galley was stocked with chickens from China and cows from England for supper.


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## oldgoat (Aug 18, 2005)

Recently we had a school addition blow up because someone took off a gas line pipe cap. Luckily when it blew nobody was in the addition and only the teachers and office help was in the old section that was undamaged. Blew out windows of a couple of houses across the street. The addition was just about completed but the structure itself wasn't hurt that bad. Some very lucky people, but I would hate to see the contractors insurance rates now.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

mdshunk said:


> Now that's funny. Then again, if that logger electrician was working on a crab boat in a coal mine, that would be really dangerous. Especially if the galley was stocked with chickens from China and cows from England for supper.


:thumbup:


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## Capt (Dec 30, 2005)

FYI--Where I live (NJ) handyman insurance rates are double than that of plumbers, electricians, and carpenters--presumably because they are considered "jack of everything-master at none," hence the associated risk. On the other hand I've seen rare handymen that can put plumbers and electricians to shame. Mostly the opposite is true of course--as insurance companies attest.


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## soxfan (Aug 2, 2005)

I just installed a tile backsplash for a customer. She's got one electrical box with a GFCI outlet and a light switch previously installed in the wall. So now the cover plate won't fit right. Would it be dangerous DIY electrical work if I were to back off on the mounting screws a little and tucked a piece of tile near where they enter the box to bring the outlet flush with the newly tiled wall? This woman's in her 70's and on a fixed budget, I'd like to spare her the trip charge if I can do it without burning her house down.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

soxfan said:


> I just installed a tile backsplash for a customer. She's got one electrical box with a GFCI outlet and a light switch previously installed in the wall. So now the cover plate won't fit right. Would it be dangerous DIY electrical work if I were to back off on the mounting screws a little and tucked a piece of tile near where they enter the box to bring the outlet flush with the newly tiled wall? This woman's in her 70's and on a fixed budget, I'd like to spare her the trip charge if I can do it without burning her house down.


That would create a violation:

_314.20 In Wall or Ceiling. In walls or ceilings with a
surface of concrete, tile, gypsum, plaster, or other noncom-
bustible material, boxes shall be installed so that the front
edge of the box, plaster ring, domed cover, extension ring,
or listed extender will not be set back of the finished surface
more than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.).
In walls and ceilings constructed of wood or other combustible
surface material, boxes, plaster rings, domed covers,
extension rings, or listed extenders shall be flush with
the finished surface or project therefrom."_

To do what you want to do, and electrician would most often use an extension sleeve, inside the box, and use longer screws on the device. This one, made by Arlington Industries, is a popular choice (about 80 cents):










A tile man ought to have a box full of these things on his truck.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

What Marc said.
Those things can be a life saver sometimes.


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## JackJ (Jan 20, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> What Marc said.
> Those things can be a life saver sometimes.


Speedy Petey. Your sig in perfect. 6000 HP of NHRA Nitro big block does sound like the world is coming to an end. Doesn't it.
P.S. I grew up in Latham, NY and attended "Harvard on the Hudson" for a while.


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

mdshunk said:


> To do what you want to do, and electrician would most often use an extension sleeve, inside the box, and use longer screws on the device. This one, made by Arlington Industries, is a popular choice (about 80 cents):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We seem to always have to use those always for outside lights & GFI's.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

JackJ said:


> P.S. I grew up in Latham, NY and attended "Harvard on the Hudson" for a while.


So then you know "The Valley" where I race?


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## DonaldE.Kliros (Jan 24, 2005)

I would discourage all DIY Electrical work. 

I have been reading DIY questions for about twelve years now.

I usually do NOT answer their questions because I feel that too many of them should have an Licenced Electrical Contractor do their work.


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

well from my experience lately.....

Just tell them to put whatever they wire in an AFCI circuit...

Seems like if I look at one of those the wrong way it trips...


But seriously....I guess all DIY work has a tendency to go wrong and with electricity....it could be devistating.


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## oldgoat (Aug 18, 2005)

Just curious about a situation I had the other day with the work the electricans were doing in my garage. Built a detached garage and had 200 amp service brought in and then branched off 100 amp to the house. When it was inspected the inspector wanted a collar put on the wire going from the meter through the wall to the 200 amp panel. They did all the work without shuting the power off and seemed to be having a hard time getting the collar in there. Is it common to be working in that situation with live power? To me it just didn't seem like a good idea, but then again I'm kind of chicken also.


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## RYANINMICHIGAN (Dec 9, 2005)

i give Electrians a lot of credit I am pretty daring but watching them work with hot lines right from the pole? No thanks. It is dangerous but then again aren't all trades that are preformed by unskilled people? Like the deck repair/replacemnt I was asked to quote. 2 story i walked out on it and the whole thing shifted about a foot. I would say that persons handy work with carpentry is pretty dangerous. The danger with electricity is aparent, poeple do not think about other things be dangerous.


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

thats a very good point....

The dangers you dont see are the ones that really get ya!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Oldgoat... you ask if it was dangerous? For you, perhaps so. The main thing that draws the line between a dangerous task and a run of the mill task is education. A trained person will be famaliar with the hazards involved with a particular task, and be able to take steps to perform the work safely. Crossing the street is a dangerous task, unless you're famaliar with the hazards involved (the cars) and take steps to mitigate them (wait for the 'walk' signal, look both ways, and cross in crosswalks). Working hot is not really something an electrician does for fun, but it's part of the job many times. Just gotta keep your head screwed on straight and use your PPE.


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## bigjay (Jan 18, 2006)

I have a very simple phillosiphy on this one. Was it dangerous? YES! Should
they have shut the power off? Yes! If there was not an issue with the power being off and no one cared one way or the other,why not? Educated professionals know the hazards that exist while working things hot. They also know that the surest way to eliminate these hazards is to turn it OFF. Why take unnecessary risks. If you have to work it hot do so safely,if not DON'T. This is the best and safest thing I know to do as a professional to avoid a potentially hazardous situation. Even educated professionals can have accidents.


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## oldgoat (Aug 18, 2005)

I kept waiting for them to ask about turning the electricity off myself. To me it didn't seem like the smartest thing in the world to be doing. Heck I didn't even like him pushing the ground wire up into the house breaker box with him on the opposite side of the wall. To me it was a risk that wasn't worth taking since I would have been more than glad to have them turn it off. It has been my experience that a lot of times the longer you work at something the more you have a tendency to start taking shortcuts and thinking it won't bite you.


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## supernix (Dec 22, 2005)

Once while working on someones AC unit I saw the customer working on adding an outdoor receptacle and poof first time I ever saw this but something happened and caused an arc and then the wall started smoking. Lucky for him they got it out before any serious damage.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

One reason the power may not have been turned off.... cost. 
Where I live/work it costs $300 to have to power company come turn the power off(disconnect), and another $300 to reconnect. To stay competitive, we work with the power on. Even on underground service upgrades where the meter enclosure is replaced. I.E. 200 AMP to 400AMP.


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

Do you mean that it is worth $600.00 to take a chance that someone is going to get injured or killed just to be competitive? NFW is it worth it.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

True, but I and my crew always work as if the power is on anyway. There are safety precautions that are taken. The power companies work with the power on. With the right equipment and the right procedures in place the job can be completed safely, competitivly, and on time. The power company will not give specifics as to what time they will get there, only about a three hour window. So, the profits are better, and everyone can make more per hour because we dont have 3-5 people standing around waiting.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

...Not to say we always work with the power on, but sometimes it is necesary.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

fridaymean said:


> True, but I and my crew always work as if the power is on anyway. There are safety precautions that are taken. The power companies work with the power on. With the right equipment and the right procedures in place the job can be completed safely, competitivly, and on time.


EXACTAMUNDO! A man after my own heart.

There are procedures and equipment to make any electrical task safe if you have to do it hot. I take that back, not if you "have to", even if you simply "want to" for whatever reason. While working on dead equipment is the most desirable situation, safety wise, you can make hot work equally safe. It's not for everyone, I should add. Contrary to popular (mis)belief, it is not an OSHA violation to do hot work. There are rules that need to be followed, PPE to be worn, and special tools to be used, but it can be done safely and compliantly. If you don't want to follow the rules, buy the high dollar PPE, and the even higher dollar hot work tools, then you really can't do hot work, and should not.

I wouldn't hold it against any guy that flatly refused to do hot work. Having done linework for about 4 years, anything I do hot as a narrowback electrician isn't really that dramatic.


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## bigjay (Jan 18, 2006)

This just illustrates how different the local utility companies are I guess. The
last service change I did, granted was probably some twelve years back, I had a disconnect scheduled for 7:00 am and as usual the utility never showed.I called the shop I was working for at the time and they put in a call to the local utility co.,still after some 3 hours-nothing. I called the shop was told to go ahead and disconnect myself which I did. Not twenty minutes after I disconnected their drop a field supervisor from the utility company showed upand gave me the fifth degree for disconnecting/touching THEIR line. He assured me and my boss at the time,over the phone, that I would be arrested
and my boss as well as myself would be fined. Ive only done one other connection to a utility line since then. It was to re-connect that same drop when they failed to show up to do the re-connect it later that same day. As
I was leaving a serviceman did finally show up looked at my work and thanked me for doing his job for him, go figure. Long story short, now I wait for the utility company. There is no charge here.

No matter how careful you are working on something in the energized state it can never be as safe as if it is de-energized. Educated, experienced, trained,
professionals have accidents every day. I still work things hot when I absolutely have to and I do it as safely as possible, but I know I can work twice as fast on something in a de-energized state because I don't have to be as cautious.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

We always dison and recon the overhead lines on a service upgrade. The city inspects, then calls the power company. A note on safety....I was looking through another local contractors website. On it, in thier safety page I might add, it showed one of thier electricians working on a metal ladder. How dumb are some of these people? And this is a company that claims to be 500 electricians strong, at least for now. Next week it may be 499. I can't believe an electrical contracting firm would even own a metal ladder. Even with the benefit of the doubt (the ladder isn't thiers and this was just a "photo shoot") promoting safe practices should be evident in every function of a business. DIYers BECAREFUL WHO YOU LISTEN TO AND USE FOR AN EXAMPLE!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Sometimes I arrive for a small job or service call and the homeowner already has their metal ladder set up for me to use. "No thanks", I always say. I'll go out to the truck and carry in a fiberglass stepladder before I'll use a metal one that's already set up. I have a few wooden ones that still have life in them. They're okay too. 

An EC's website showing men on metal ladders? Weird. Maybe new construction? Still, why would you own any metal one's and risk getting them sent on a job with energized stuff?


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## RobertF (Jan 20, 2006)

fridaymean said:


> .... I can't believe an electrical contracting firm would even own a metal ladder. Even with the benefit of the doubt (the ladder isn't thiers and this was just a "photo shoot") promoting safe practices should be evident in every function of a business. DIYers BECAREFUL WHO YOU LISTEN TO AND USE FOR AN EXAMPLE!


Funny you mention that, even though they're lighter I refuse to use a metal ladder out of safety. A few years back I ran into a electrician using metal ladder and out of curiosity I asked him why. His response was "It's what my boss gives me to use." I'd be running fast from a boss like that, very scary.


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