# Need some opinions!



## Drywall1 (Dec 12, 2005)

The flooring comparison is apples to oranges or walls to floors. You are doing all the work on the floor, 14 foot topping out blows a55. Along with patchwork over painted surface. Its not just 1200 sq ft. of work only.Patchwork dosen't take hardly any materials, its the time you have in labor and....if your a quality company, coming back after primer or first coat of paint is on, to fix any problem areas. Then most commercial I have worked on takes 90 days to get paid so I figure in a little interest. 

I have paid 10 plus a sq ft for stamped concrete overlay flooring and I didnt give it a second thought. Also have paid over 7 for real wood flooring. (Is that what you are doing for 5?) 

Try having them break down the bid. I bet the portion for patchwork is higher than you expected. And the patchwork is hard to show with any clarity thru the web.

Im sure the flooring guru's would crucify me if I had a thread such as yours...dont take it personal dawg:thumbup:

BTW: If I ever have a customer tell me they have 4 or 5 other bids I will turn around and roll on out. Quality is not the issue then only $$. Had a builder we wanted once call me to bid a project, said we are meeting at 10am (figured GC HO and me). Wrong all my competitors were in the drive when I pulled up. I backed out and went back to work. Shoulda pulled a nascar win in their lawn:0


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## GoodHouse (Sep 3, 2007)

Drywall1 - I appreciate everything your saying but the reality is most consumers price shop. Everyone does it even yourself say when your purchasing a car, house, clothes, etc. Inherently you expect quality with your purchase. All i am looking for is to understand how others would price the job out and I gotta say in this drywall section people want to beat you up. 
When i price a job I 95% time give my best price. Unless i dont want the job due to the people or the situation. I am not a difficult person to deal with. All the drywallers that came i said, dont worry about the mess on the floor, i left the carpet down as a drop cloth, its going, i said the dumpster is right outside the door. You can come and go as you please. I dont have a deadline, you can start immediately but once its started i want it finished, no start for a couple days, come back in a week, do a little more kind of thing. I will pay in full by check or cash once job is completed. I will even pay for some material up front if i have to. 
I am not looking for the best drywaller, just a person who does a good job for a fair price and gets it done. I am not expecting miracles here. Most of the walls are going to be covered by display cases. Obviously i am trying to keep costs down, every little bit helps. 
Here are 2 more pics for more vantage points,...


















I am sorry to respond to this but i just cant stand the ignorance about the expense of tools. First of all you dont bid jobs to recover the cost of buying tools, you add money to your total bill to cover the depreciation and a part of future replacement costs for the tools you are using. That being said again the single most expensive tool besides ladder/scaffolding for a drywaller is the bazooka gun. I said i am a flooring contractor which means i install carpet, vinyl, tile, hardwood, laminate, vct, etc. Forget my demo tools, diamond blade saws, compound saws, compressors, nails guns, etc... just my one sanding machine machine is approx $7k. The dustless tank that goes with it and buffer is another $5k. That doesnt include the small sanders, big buffer, and hepa vacuum. Now thats just for floor refinishing. So please stop with the tool comparison. Your just not thinking about things... binding machines, powerstretchers, jig saws, sawzalls, concrete nail gun, trowels, undercut saws, table saws, vct shears, laminate shears, stand up rollers,drills, mixers, an FYI hardwood nail guns cost approx 500 a pop. And dont forget all the sundries as seam tape, spray glue, glue, caulk, putty, blades, staples, glue sticks, binding tapes, sealers, tackless, transitional materials, etc.etc... 

The drywaller coming to my job is going to need a knife, several trowels, a drill, a paddle mixer, some buckets, straight edge, rotozip, and a small rolling scaffold. 

This is not a competition but I find it terrible that you all for the most have such bad attitudes towards a person complaining about a high price.


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## taper71 (Dec 5, 2006)

Sorry Goodhouse, but I just cant see 2 bids around the same price as being high. They either know you personally and think you are not someone to work with or the rates around there warrent that price. Personally I would have to charge around the same price because of the pia factor - just from looking at the pics I would not want to do that job -and would bid high so I did not get it. Good luck with your other estimates.


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

Yea, we beat up on you pretty bad. And looking at the pictures it doesn't look like it would be that bad of a job. Just looking at the pictures we would have 65- 70 man hours in it. Because of the patching in and the extra coats it would take to make it smooth and blend in. Because of the butt joint around the whole room, you are looking at a short day for three guys to hang. Four hours times three to tape, then the next day fill, then the next to skim and the next to skim again, then the same on the next to sand and touch up. That adds up to 84 man hours. I don't know what you need per hour, but based on what we need for ins, taxes and such. Yep the bids are a bit high. Also, in Iowa to do any and I mean ANY commercial you have to carry a minimum of ten million dollars liability insurance. No matter if the job is a patch or a whole store front. 
So you're right if the job was in my area I would be a thousand lower and would be leaving a thousand on the table, I guess.
Lowes has some pretty cheap knives and pans and sand paper for sale. I just saw them today. And scaffolding. And screw guns....
The field is wide open for the taking.


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## CrazyTaper (Oct 9, 2007)

Tim0282 said:


> Yea, we beat up on you pretty bad. And looking at the pictures it doesn't look like it would be that bad of a job. Just looking at the pictures we would have 65- 70 man hours in it. Because of the patching in and the extra coats it would take to make it smooth and blend in. Because of the butt joint around the whole room, you are looking at a short day for three guys to hang. Four hours times three to tape, then the next day fill, then the next to skim and the next to skim again, then the same on the next to sand and touch up. That adds up to 84 man hours. I don't know what you need per hour, but based on what we need for ins, taxes and such. Yep the bids are a bit high. Also, in Iowa to do any and I mean ANY commercial you have to carry a minimum of ten million dollars liability insurance. No matter if the job is a patch or a whole store front.
> So you're right if the job was in my area I would be a thousand lower and would be leaving a thousand on the table, I guess.
> Lowes has some pretty cheap knives and pans and sand paper for sale. I just saw them today. And scaffolding. And screw guns....
> The field is wide open for the taking.


HEY-THOSE ARE MY NEW KNIVES!


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

Whoops! Didn't intend to step on your toes. I remember you saying you like them, so I recommended them.


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## Drywall1 (Dec 12, 2005)

Mabye just tell the subs what the job pays and see how that works. I know many times that has worked for people I know. I think your feeling towards the drywall industry might be a little negative also. Yes...I could do your job with 100 dollars worth of tools but if you want to show how much you spent on tools here we go.

2 enclosed trailers 5k ea
2 dump tr. 6k+ ea
2 sets of tools 5k+ each
4 trucks = I don't want to think about it.
Spray rig 9k
Mark V 3k

Hell we pay 1500 a month just in insurance.

The low bidders out there are the same in your industry...... f-ing hacks. Tim has it right mabye 1k less for that job, but I think your looking for half or less. 

Don't take this personal. Us drywallers are just a little sensitive. We clean up after those who go behind us all the time.....I bet you put up with that crap too.

Please let us know how this turns out.

Nate


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

......
Floor guy?
Try doing your 1200 sqft of oak off 2 sections of scaffold, see if your price doesn't go up a tad?


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## kgphoto (May 9, 2006)

GoodHouse,

With all due respect, you really don't know what you are talking about. Most "real" drywallers don't just use a few knives and a pan. They want to earn a living too. Scaffolding, $5K sprayers and pumps, more for the tow behind rigs, etc.

I still can't tell from the vantage points that you took the pictures from, how much work is really there and what all the problems are. Please don't go away angry, but do come back and tell us what the next bids come in at, which you choose and how it goes. We would all like to hear which you choose and why and how they performed for you.

Surely you understand laying flooring down on a comparatively smooth surface, in little pieces, is a lot different from lifting 100 pound board up 10 feet and putting in multiple fasteners fighting gravity the whole way? Then there is the 100's of feet of seems to tape and finish with minimum 3 coats. Then, start the patching, which involves cutting and blending.

Add to this the amount of fitting in around the penetrations and the trusses. It all comes down to a bunch of time and hand finishing the details. That is skill times time, not just running a sander or pushing a mop of finish around on the ground.

In LA pricing, that is probably the minimum that would cost. I based that on taking my normal square foot charge, not evening knowing if your estimate of 1200 is accurate or what the exact amount to the ceiling is(could be >48"), added for high work and then special tools (scaffolding - small rolling not adequate for 14 feet), and then the patching.

Good luck on your project.


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## leakygoose (Dec 14, 2007)

Man , you guys are rough on Mr. goodhouse. It sounds like a bunch of old hags . And comparing tools , you guys start drinking already?


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

Go jump in the lake leakygoose!


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## CrazyTaper (Oct 9, 2007)

You know-I am tired of drywall tapers being catagorized as drunk, drug addict, good for nothing bums. I have worked my entire career in drywall to overcome that stereotype. We are AS skilled or better than any trade out there. Try it for a day. I've seen guys come in and try to run with us and leave at lunch with their tail between their legs. They had no idea what was involved or what they were getting themselves into. We are the grunts of construction. Do you know how many times I have come across SNOOTY electricians that think they are the cream of the crop?! I am sick of this crap!! Yes-YOU HAVE HIT A NERVE! I make over $100,000.00 a year take home. I am proud of what I do. I have had CARPENTERS RAPE me for flooring and I have PAID! Like I have said-DRYWALL IS A LIFESTYLE-try it for a day, a week, you will appreciate what we do alot more. THANK YOU GENTLEMEN.HAPPY NEW YEAR. I NEED A BEER -BUT UNFORTUNATELY, I AM WORKING NEW YEARS DAY!


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## Drywall1 (Dec 12, 2005)

CrazyTaper said:


> You know-I am tired of drywall tapers being catagorized as drunk, drug addict, good for nothing bums. I have worked my entire career in drywall to overcome that stereotype. We are AS skilled or better than any trade out there. Try it for a day. I've seen guys come in and try to run with us and leave at lunch with their tail between their legs. They had no idea what was involved or what they were getting themselves into. We are the grunts of construction. Do you know how many times I have come across SNOOTY electricians that think they are the cream of the crop?! I am sick of this crap!! Yes-YOU HAVE HIT A NERVE! I make over $100,000.00 a year take home. I am proud of what I do. I have had CARPENTERS RAPE me for flooring and I have PAID! Like I have said-DRYWALL IS A LIFESTYLE-try it for a day, a week, you will appreciate what we do alot more. THANK YOU GENTLEMEN.HAPPY NEW YEAR. I NEED A BEER -BUT UNFORTUNATELY, I AM WORKING NEW YEARS DAY!


Amen brother!:clap:


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

I'm right there with you two. And I'm sure there are more like us!
Happy New Year to You, too!
What's with us working tomorrow, anyway? I thought I was the only crazy one.
Tim


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

Just thought of one thing with the goodhouse guy. Sure feel sorry for the guy that does his drywall. That guy is going to beat him up because of all these posts. He'll wonder what hit him. If he doesn't read these posts he'll have to wonder why this guy hates him. All he was doing was trying to do is a little drywall job. Makes ya kinda chuckle.


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## leakygoose (Dec 14, 2007)

Sensitive bunch , I'll leave this one alone. Good luck goodhouse .


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Hey, I was with you guys all along.
Around here union hangers used to be UBCJ (I was).
As far as I can tell a *good* drywall guy,plumber, sparky, carpenter....
is a good tradesman, period.
Good is good....bad sucks.
Doesn't matter what trade, I respect the skill...and the skilled.:whistling
Happy New Year!:clap:
Go out there and make somebody's job look good.


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## Brockster (Aug 24, 2007)

neolitic said:


> Happy New Year!:clap:
> Go out there and make somebody's job look good.


Happy New Year> And I make a job look good as soon as I step on the job! :laughing:


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

The way it looks to me is "Goodhouse" knows what the drywall guys should charge for the job. Whenever a customer tells me that my radar goes on and we are never close in price. He gets 5 bids and they are all too high. My guess is he underbid the job and thinks its the drywall guys fault. Happens all the time when a person screws up and starts looking for other people to blame. Or "Goodhouse" is right and all the drywall guys in his area are looking to take advantage of him. This they qualify as a "drywall cartel" and they are looking to corner the market just like the oil companies have done.
IT'S A CONSPIRACY---RUN FOR THE HILLS! :laughing:


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

All I know is that when I go over the 9' mark the price goes up to $2.55 a foot. There was a article on Walls and Ceilings about drywallers lifting over a million pounds of drywall in a life time of drywalling. Plus all the mud we put up. most drywall guys end up with bad shoulders and necks But for a 1200 sqft above 9' calls 5000 all day long. and then to say laying flooring is as hard as drywall. come on I do believe Goodhouse you need to do the job then you'll see what everyone is trying to tell you. It's no walk in the park lifting sheetrock up on to scalfolding and then hanging it off the scalfold try it and you'll see it aint no were near laying a bunch of boards on the floor then nailing them down.:whistling Good luck Goodhouse well Happy New Years to all, I'm off to work have a great day!


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## GoodHouse (Sep 3, 2007)

Update: I went with my very last estimate. He bid the job at $5400 so he happens to be highest bid of all. I simply felt the most comfortable with him. I tend to only do business with people i feel comfortable with. He seemed professional and knowledgeable. Walked into my building like he's seen this stuff a million times and got right down to business. He starts tomorrow at 7am. I went to the building today and made sure there was nothing in his way. So he will get right down to business. 

I want to take a second to clarify something. By no means do i knock your trade or want to take away any credit thats due, I know very well to be a master finisher is a great skill. I live in one of the wealthiest counties in the USA, so trust me i know about high prices for things. 
I dont know where anyone got the impression that i am hard to deal with or want to rip people off, that was just made up by other posters. 

I need to address a couple things that i keep letting slide because i cant stand all of the insinuations and insults. I also cant take the "you dont know how hard it is until you do it stuff." 
I work physical labor everyday. I work an average of 60-70 Hrs per week. I have 18 Full time employee with the tools and trucks for them. Most of my work is existing residential. That means i tear out old floor, subfloor, move furniture, work with moldings, etc. I do what the job calls for, whether its carry a 500 pd carpet to the 3rd floor, or bring 4000pds of wood in a house.I am NOT adverse to hard work by any means. I am not trying to say i am better than anyone or can do more or have more all i am trying to state is that I know what work is.... Again the reason for the thread is to make sure i wasnt getting ripped off. 
One more point... everyone got the wrong idea about my wood vs drywall comparison. The point is wood is obviously much more expensive to purchase per square foot than drywall. Drywall is like .35 a square foot at home depot and oak is approx 2.25 a sq ft at home depot. My point is for 5 a square i supply install and finish, and my drywall qoute was for about 5 a sq for supply install and finish. See my point??? Both jobs are labor intensive, require tools, time, but the costs for the materials are wayy off?? thats why i think the drywall price is high. 
One more note, i wish all trades the best of luck by changing their stereotypes, same with floor guys being shot. I pride myself on not being a "shot" guy. I have a bachelor of science in accounting from Villanova and I am on the floor everyday. What does that say about the trades? 
I hope this clears things up!
I will keep you guys informed with pictures and progress if i get time to go by the building. He said he will be done in less than a week.


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

wow with 18 man crew, why didn't you just hang it yourself? you could of got an old boy to come in and mud it for around $800.00. To me you spent about 2k more than needed.


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

Brock, You are cruel!! But truthful!!

Tim


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

Tim0282 said:


> Brock, You are cruel!! But truthful!!
> 
> Tim


I'm sorry Tim, I know you run a "full service"drywall company, but this is remodel work. You have to squeeze every drop out of these type of jobs. If I was to build a new strip mall or a golf course home I wouldn't consider running the job like that.....I would use you, and you would make a bundle on the job.


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

I definitely agree with you, Brock. And I think just about everybody that pitched in did too. And the thread did start "Need some opinions". And boy did he get them. That was kinda fun, don't you think?


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## studmancny (Dec 28, 2007)

My opinion is you paid to much based on what i saw. If you get the job done right, once, and you do not have to baby sit. It is well worth the extra money. At least that is what i say when negotiating a contract. I do quite a bit of drywall/metal framing in CT. sorry i did not see this earlier, you must be near westport/norwalk?


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## Brockster (Aug 24, 2007)

So you ended up giving the contract to the highest bidder after you started this thread whining about how our prices were too high.:laughing:


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

Frankawitz said:


> All I know is that when I go over the 9' mark the price goes up to $2.55 a foot. There was a article on Walls and Ceilings about drywallers lifting over a million pounds of drywall in a life time of drywalling. Plus all the mud we put up. most drywall guys end up with bad shoulders and necks But for a 1200 sqft above 9' calls 5000 all day long. and then to say laying flooring is as hard as drywall. come on I do believe Goodhouse you need to do the job then you'll see what everyone is trying to tell you. It's no walk in the park lifting sheetrock up on to scalfolding and then hanging it off the scalfold try it and you'll see it aint no were near laying a bunch of boards on the floor then nailing them down.:whistling Good luck Goodhouse well Happy New Years to all, I'm off to work have a great day!


 
"30 Year Rocker"

Good article, read it twice.

I love that magazine.


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

Brockster said:


> So you ended up giving the contract to the highest bidder after you started this thread whining about how our prices were too high.:laughing:


Isn't that how it always works. One has to wonder...
Tim


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## GoodHouse (Sep 3, 2007)

Day 1: 
Contractor was suppose to meet me at 7am at the property with his insurance papers and written proposal (i accepted a verbal proposal over the phone). At 7:45 my partner puts a call into him and he says the guys should be there any minute and he asks about the paperwork he says he will leave his house now and be there. 8:30 am he shows up and his guys says he'll have his paperwork faxed to me. His crew is 2 hangers and 2 finishers. My partner stops by at 12ish, 2 guys scraping some stuff and 2 guys laying on the floor, no material. So at that point not too pleased. We were faxed the insurance paperwork but no proposal. So after another call he said he'd have it straightened out. I went by there at 2 pm, material got there and they were hanging and taping. It was looking better....
Day 2: 
Overnight got his written proposal, looks good. Stopped by jobsite at Noon, most of the rock was hung and 50% taped. Looked great. At end of day they were going to have all rock hung and most mudded 1 time. I am very pleased with how nice they are getting to everything and glad the contractor used j-bead at the top where it meets the metal cieling. 

The rough paperwork start was because he's an old school guy that says hes honest and doesnt rip people off and I just want to cover my butt and make sure he is insured and gives me his price in writing so no funny changes at the end. 

I will take some pictures and show everyone the progress this weekend.


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## Drywall1 (Dec 12, 2005)

An entire day to hang 1200 sq ft? Ouch it must have sucked. 2 of my hangers can hang 3000 ft a day. Mabye the price did need to be higher than new const.  

GoodHouse your the man for hangin in there. It's been a lot of fun. Keep the updates coming.

Nate


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## Brockster (Aug 24, 2007)

And they are also going the extra mile and finishing off the top with bead for you. Fantastic!:thumbsup:


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

GoodHouse said:


> Day 1:
> The rough paperwork start was because he's an old school guy that says hes honest and doesnt rip people off and I just want to cover my butt and make sure he is insured and gives me his price in writing so no funny changes at the end.
> 
> That's key when you use a sub for the first time. Good idea for both of your interests. Now, after you use him 3 or 4 times then you can do an "old-school" deal on a handshake over lunch.


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## GoodHouse (Sep 3, 2007)

Update:
I strolled in the building around 10am and there with 3 guys working. The following pictures show the progress. Everything is looking great. I am very pleased with the workmanship thus far. I made my thoughts known to the owner of the company. Everything is real nice and tight around all of the obstructions. They said they have a couple of more days to do some more coats. One of the guys in there today was finishing off a drop cieling grid for me in 2 of the rooms, a total of about 100 Sq Ft, probably less. The drywall guy included in his bid that i was unaware of until i got the written estimate. Its about an hours work and a few bucks in material but it was nice of him. 




























So as of now, started off on a rocky spot but 85% near completion is going very well.


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

You went with the highest bid and all you got for your money was a top quality job done in a timely manner. Just how the world of construction should work. :thumbup:


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## taper71 (Dec 5, 2006)

Ha I knew it! There still are some good tradesmen out there. The job looks really good from the pics Goodhouse and I am glad that the job is going good for you now. As for the price maybe it is time you started charging more HUH? Cost of living does not go down IMO.


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## GoodHouse (Sep 3, 2007)

I dont mind the price at all at this point. After seeing this company perform i think the price is fair. I have no quam. I admit I did think it was a high price at first but i do admit i under-estimated the amount of finishing/taping that needed to take place to smooth everything together. So in hindsight i dont think i should have been so skeptical about the price. Just trying to be a good businessman. Although I don't think this drywall thread was easy on me by any means. Very combative actually. But i appreciate the learning experience :shifty:


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## Drywall1 (Dec 12, 2005)

:shifty:


GoodHouse said:


> I dont mind the price at all at this point. After seeing this company perform i think the price is fair. I have no quam. I admit I did think it was a high price at first but i do admit i under-estimated the amount of finishing/taping that needed to take place to smooth everything together. So in hindsight i dont think i should have been so skeptical about the price. Just trying to be a good businessman. Although I don't think this drywall thread was easy on me by any means. Very combative actually. But i appreciate the learning experience :shifty:


You know I would be flamed also if the shoe was on my foot, in the flooring section. We may bicker among ourselves but when an outsider comes in we are still a brotherhood. Its always been that way in each trade. I'll say it again.....you hung in there better than I thought you would. Thanks for the updates. Looks good.

Nate


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