# 12 on 30 Amp?



## actionman (Jan 5, 2012)

Had a electrical inspection today. House has a well with 12 wire from the controller to the well pump and had 12 wire from the controller to the panel. Inspector said we need to replace the 12 wire from the controller to the panel with 10 wire and a 30 amp breaker. To me this made no sense at all. When I questioned him he said he wanted a 30 amp breaker in case anyone ever replaced the well pump. Am I wrong in thinking that what he wants me to do is actually against code because I will have a 30 amp breaker on 12 wire from the controller to the pump?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Insufficient information to make a Code call, but I'd demand a Code reference.

The inspector *CAN NOT* demand a larger wire 'in case' someone in the future wants to make a change.


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## jamesgr81 (Feb 14, 2012)

*Code*

A 30 amp breaker supplying #12 conductors to a motor is not necessarily a code violation. Motor short-circuit protection (inverse time CB) can be sized a max 250% of FLA of motor. 

But there is not code justification for oversizing conductors for future applications, that makes no sense.


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## Dave in Pa (Oct 10, 2009)

Is the 12 wire have a 20 amp breaker now?
Next he will want to see a panel/breaker/disconnect at the controller to pump!
Good Luck, let us know!


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## actionman (Jan 5, 2012)

Dave in Pa said:


> Is the 12 wire have a 20 amp breaker now?
> Next he will want to see a panel/breaker/disconnect at the controller to pump!
> Good Luck, let us know!


The 12 was on 20 amp breaker, we did a service change from 100 to 200 amp and put a new 20 amp back in which he wants us to change to a 30 amp with 10 wire to the controller. Also wants AFCI breaker for bathroom. Like Sparky said, I don't understand the "in case" part.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

actionman said:


> ......Also wants AFCI breaker for bathroom.........



I wanna see a Code reference for that.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

actionman said:


> .... he wants us to change to a 30 amp with 10 wire to the controller.


There is absolutely NO justification or reason to do this.




actionman said:


> ... Also wants AFCI breaker for bathroom.


He's stupid. AFCI is not required for bathroom outlets and/or receptacles. And retroactive GFI requirements are few and far between, even with service changes. 

This sounds like another rogue power mad inspector. Or a home inspector, one or the other.


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## actionman (Jan 5, 2012)

I think he is power mad, we are younger guys and I think he wants to push us around a little.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I would tell the inspector if he wants to have a 30amp breaker on 10ga wire then he should be dragging the pump out of the well to verify it requires a 30amp breaker. All pumps i have replaced were 20amp, for shallow wells you can even get a 15amp submersible pump so his reasoning for a 30amp breaker is way overkill and unneeded. 

Here it is required to install a disconnect before the control box but 12ga feed and a 20amp breaker is standard procedure. I have seen wells over 800' using a 20amp feed with no issues.

This is the biggest pump i could find without going 3phase and the amp load is 10amps: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/FRANKLIN-Submersible-Pump-Motor-1CXB9?Pid=search

I have never seen a 2hp pump in a well, in fact the largest i have seen is a 1hp and that was only once. Most common pumps are 1/2-3/4hp


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

actionman said:


> I think he is power mad, we are younger guys and I think he wants to push us around a little.


I think you're dead right.... some BI's are terrific, cooperative, and a genuine help.... I have one in Marin Co at my daughters...

However, some get there own ideas, either because they want to sound authoritive, or sometimes just confused...

On an owner build in SoCal (my son building... I'm out of CO not Ca), my son ran into a BI just blatently saying things wrong... some of it humorous.... but he seemed to have a chip on his shoulder about a owner build... and maybe my son's youth.

Finally, on a specifically expensive call by the BI about a temp pole on my son's 1800 foot addition, my son wrote up (documented on paper) the issues, and scheduled a meeting with the BO/AHJ/BI's boss.

At the meeting, the AHJ never even opened my son's write-up and documentation, and avoided any specific discussion of it.

My son stayed polite, and at first was kinda mad..... BUT, we never had anymore issues with the BI. 

(The AHJ obviously knew he had problem employee, but did not want to rock the boat, get into an administrative personel issue, and I'm sure told the BI to be sure he was correct before imposing his "interpertations".)

(It's kinda interesting, but we had a roof inspection with another BI earlier, and he was great. We could discuss several issues with him and he was genuinely helpfull and knowledgeable and correct.... so we kinda knew that it was not necessarily a department wide problem and bad attitude)

Bottom line, none of us want to PO the BI... but if it gets real bad, documented (written down and presented) will do alot more than a casual telephone call, when you are involved with a buearacracy.

Make sure you are right though.

Just an idea and good luck.

Best


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## actionman (Jan 5, 2012)

woodchuck2 said:


> I would tell the inspector if he wants to have a 30amp breaker on 10ga wire then he should be dragging the pump out of the well to verify it requires a 30amp breaker. All pumps i have replaced were 20amp, for shallow wells you can even get a 15amp submersible pump so his reasoning for a 30amp breaker is way overkill and unneeded.
> 
> Here it is required to install a disconnect before the control box but 12ga feed and a 20amp breaker is standard procedure. I have seen wells over 800' using a 20amp feed with no issues.
> 
> ...


He actually had me me go out to the well and take off the cap to look for a tag with the pump specs. Well is 269' deep according to the tag on the controller.


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## actionman (Jan 5, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> I think you're dead right.... some BI's are terrific, cooperative, and a genuine help.... I have one in Marin Co at my daughters...
> 
> However, some get there own ideas, either because they want to sound authoritive, or sometimes just confused...
> 
> ...


Thanks, this inspectoer is actually 3rd party. The AHJ doesn't do the electrical aspect. This is the first guy I ever had issue with. Every one else was always helpful and open to discussion. I'll see how it goes from here and decide if I need to take any action, like calling his supervisor.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

actionman said:


> Thanks, this inspectoer is actually 3rd party. The AHJ doesn't do the electrical aspect. This is the first guy I ever had issue with. Every one else was always helpful and open to discussion. I'll see how it goes from here and decide if I need to take any action, like calling his supervisor.


That's what's nice about NYS and PA. If the inspector pisses you off just fire him and call someone else.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> That's what's nice about NYS and PA. If the inspector pisses you off just fire him and call someone else.


Speedy.... Cool... Just curiosity, don't think I'll ever live back there... but how does that work????

Best


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## actionman (Jan 5, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> That's what's nice about NYS and PA. If the inspector pisses you off just fire him and call someone else.


Yeah, I don't wanna cause chit, but I don't wanna take any either.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Speedy.... Cool... Just curiosity, don't think I'll ever live back there... but how does that work????
> 
> Best


We use approved third party private electrical inspectors/inspection firms. Each municipality has a list of 5-6 approved agencies we can use. The bigger/more popular firms are typically on most lists.

Electrical is the only trade not tied to the building dept.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> We use approved third party private electrical inspectors/inspection firms. Each municipality has a list of 5-6 approved agencies we can use. The bigger/more popular firms are typically on most lists.
> 
> Electrical is the only trade not tied to the building dept.


Thank ya....

Interesting....hmmmm... Do you figure that electrical inspection is contracted out basically because it is the most demanding/technical trade, and BI/BO's can't handle it??????????

Just curiosity.... I know my son's Ca BO honestly did not know his hind-parts from a foundation footing (hole in the ground) as to electrical....

Best

(Trying my best to clean up my language)


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## actionman (Jan 5, 2012)

Same in my area. AHJ does plumbing, building, etc.... everything but electrical and for that you pick from a list of registered agencies. I would think that the technical aspect has something to do with it, also maybe a liability issue to the AHJ?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

actionman said:


> Same in my area. AHJ does plumbing, building, etc.... everything but electrical and for that you pick from a list of registered agencies. I would think that the technical aspect has something to do with it, also maybe a liability issue to the AHJ?


Laws are usually in place to hold AHJs harmless.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Why isn't the electrician dealing with this rather than the OP?


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