# I usually never do this, but sometimes it needs to be said...



## NTP74 (Feb 1, 2011)

480 , Do you present that that list to customers who would give you a hard time ?
Just curious....because it seems like not a bad idea.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

NTP74 said:


> 480 , Do you present that that list to customers who would give you a hard time ?
> Just curious....because it seems like not a bad idea.



Very rarely.

Usually, I tell them my price (let's say $5k), and they respond with, "Well, I got someone else who bid it for $2750". 

I politely tell them I can't touch that, and wish them well. If the person bails on 'em, I'll be happy to help clean up.


But if they truly wonder why my price is so high, I show them the list and inform them that it represents all my expenses just to be in business...... I have to pay for this stuff _before_ I can come to your house and claim to be a contractor.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

480sparky said:


> I carry a copy of this in my truck:
> 
> Business Cost List
> 
> ...


Very nice! :thumbsup:


You know what I've been doing lately when somebody voices stupid sh*t like this customer did?

I've been trying to turn their perspective around and their mind set.

If they say crap like that I'll ask them a few questions -

You know how you saw my website before you called me, you know how you went through all those hundreds of pictures of past jobs? You know how you read through page after page after page of glowing reviews and testimonials about how customers absolultely love us? You know how you found me on the web or on one of the review sites and read all those reviews where past customers were raving about us? 

Well, all those past customers, all the hundreds and hundreds who weve done work for and all are happy as peas in a pod - yeah all of those... guess what?

THEY ALL PAID THE *SAME* RATES THAT I QUOTED YOU!

I try to do this to get them to think about the situation differently, that my prices have been deemed correct and acceptable by all our past customers in the market and they should understand this and widen their perspective and understand this bigger picture.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

I found that Ehow article fairly amusing. Why just pick on contractors ? Go up to the meat department in the grocery store and haggle with them, or your doctor, or dentist or car mechanic ? How about a good 'ol Ehow article on haggling with the IRS !

These articles will always get positive comments from people who have it in their mind that everyone else out there is trying to rip them off. That somehow everyone else on the planet makes their money by conning others or is some kind of gray market mobster type who charges hundreds of times more than the service or product is worth. 

Unfortunately, I have heard most of this stuff well over 35 years ago. What really ticked business people off ( those that played by the rules - whatever those are ?) were those folks that had absolutely no business sense getting into a business. These non-business business types were constantly dropping prices because business is slow or they just don't know how to attract customers. 

I hear the same thing here. Out of work construction workers, handymen, etc. suddenly becoming contractors and under-cutting those of us who play by the rules, have bills to pay and don't compromise on quality or thoroughness. I actually pulled my business out of one county because I could not compete against guys who just want enough dough to pay for beer or drug money for the weekend.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*spark...*

I agree with you ,,, your expenses ... it's all justified,,,,but - what about the quality of the workmanship... that's where I am on this,, like i said .. they really don't give a crap about that.. 
I think you have to "sell" yourself and your company first. Angus said this and I totally agree with him - it's all about "value"... what they are getting for their investment..
So...
what ever the price you give... it's all justified..and "we" all know that and is set by your terms.. and what you need to keep the business prosporing...etc.etc..etc...

this justification list.....ahhhh.... lets be honest.. do you really think they give a crap.. at that point they look at you,,,, and I mean Look at you..with an " I really don't give a crap about that" look.....and they don't,

And if your using that as leverage instead of explaining the value you bring to them... then your dead in the water as far as I am concerned...
It comes down to your personality... and lets not forget the most important issue... the quality of the job.... it's all about Value and if they don't care about value then they are not my client... end of story.

So I think there is a lot more going on ... and you actually can control the direction of your clients mindset to a certain degree..
but that list... ahhhh... 
to me that's not going to tip them over... however.. I think your companies craftsmanship along with your personality has a lot to do with closing a deal... 

just my opinion on that.. 

nothing personal..:notworthy

B.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> ......... ahhhh... to me that's not going to tip them over... .........


It's not intended to. It's a parting shot.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

I agree with Prestige and 480. People, unless they are crazy types, really don't give a rat's butt what reasons you have, or what expenses you need to pay, for the pricing your are giving them. Read my lips: They don't care. 

Let's make it more personal: I DON'T CARE !!. I don't care what expenses my car mechanic has; I don't care what bills the appliance repair guy has, I don't that your dog needs braces or that your daughter needs a gold encrusted, diamond embossed prom dress, or that your Maserati just threw a rod. 

People that don't want to pay the price usually don't see the cost/value relationship. They either see little value in quality or the type of work you do, or, they ---- across the board ---- don't see much value in anything that anyone else does, except themselves. 

So, even though as we walk out the door shaking our heads about what a cheap dumb a-- that prospective client was for not understanding what it costs to actually show up - representing a legitimate professional business. The fact of the matter is, the client mind set is already there, and only on rare occasions are you going to change it.


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## InsideandOut (Jan 14, 2011)

*Great response Jay*

Great response Jay:thumbup: To echo others: very professional, got your point across and backed it up with an independent source. 

My brother-in-law, a successful real estate agent reminds me that although clients choose him-he also chooses his clients. Real estate agents have similar challenges as we do-there are always those who will undercut commissions to get the business but something has to give. If he has a potential client that doesn't appreciate his services because they are on the cheap, he says something like: "Thank you for your time, based on what you want to pay, and the way that I run my successful business, I cannot compromise what I do in order to have you as a client."


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

I like this last parting shot. 

Unless the client is willing to swallow their pride and admit to being a cheap-ass with no apparent concept of quality and professionalism, I think the quote here is good. Especially if you know darn well, you aren't coming back, and, they aren't going to change their mind. 

Still though, I just keep my mouth shut, pay my respects, and, go home and ***** at my wife. 





InsideandOut said:


> Great response Jay:thumbup: To echo others: very professional, got your point across and backed it up with an independent source.
> 
> My brother-in-law, a successful real estate agent reminds me that although clients choose him-he also chooses his clients. Real estate agents have similar challenges as we do-there are always those who will undercut commissions to get the business but something has to give. If he has a potential client that doesn't appreciate his services because they are on the cheap, he says something like: "Thank you for your time, based on what you want to pay, and the way that I run my successful business, I cannot compromise what I do in order to have you as a client."


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## KEPC (Jan 13, 2010)

I don't think he displayed a lack of professionalism. He kept it courteous. :thumbsup: 

However, I also think that it is a moot point to discuss your operating costs with the clients. They don't care. They obviously do not value the work. 

I just wish the homeowner the best of luck. 

If they are still persistent that I do the work, but for a lower price, I ask them to provide me an estimate from a legitmate contractor that is licensed and insured.


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## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

UPDATE:

She replied via email

'I don't think so'

Haha. I don't care about losing a job bc the way I look at it is, she never was my customer to begin with. 
I did think it was funny that she told me how she usually does her own painting, then was blabbing about how she understands what I do is an art, and she was an artist as a hairdresser, with hair being her canvas. 
Another note... I am middle to high priced on my interiors, and she told me the other guys she called and they are all really high, so I can't wait to hear back from her, although I doubt I will bc she was nice as pie in person, but a dbag via email. 

I feel bad for the guy who does do it bc she is going to make sure she gets her two coats and that regal is used, which will be a fun time for the slapdink who thought he could go in and sling it for cheap money.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

In 20+ years of owning my own business, I think I rec'd 2 letters similar to the OP. I, in turn, thanked them for their time and consideration, and left it at that. Did the same when they presented it verbally. I had one old guy about 5 years ago who wanted his house painted. He flipped when he saw the bid and wanted to know if I'd lower my price. Told him no. Explained to him there was alot of labor involved in prepping and painting and that I paid my guys wages commensurate with their experience. He told me that no painter was worth over $10/hour. I said I understood and gave him a phone number where he could get $10/hr painters. It was the local homeless shelter.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*IMO....salesmanship & presentation #1..*

*"You never have a second chance to make a first impression*":no:

how true that is.....

The first question I have for a prospective client... and I always do... religiously.. 
Is after all the informalities have finished... is ask them what they have planned ,, let them explain their project...what they would like..etc..etc... and then I simply ask them what their budget is.. right away..and then shut up! 

I know some of you think I am nuts.. but that is not so gentleman...:shifty:

Sometimes we make things more difficult for ourselves, Think about it... "If" they tell you their budget.. your able to professional discuss what you can do for them with the budget in mind....alterations to the project....yada,,yada,,yada,,,, it's not as if they can't get any other bids..and they will,,. ..my point is- they opened the door for you... and frankly thats how it should be handled... professionally..


what ussually happens...

2 other companies come in and don't even ask about thier budget..why:blink:... because they are afraid to... thats why! You on the other hand have some relationship with them...trust..A sense of professionalism .. 

when you think about it.. it's a big waist of time with the numbers game- and if they want to go that route.. fine.. I'll do it, still do. but already I don't like them...:shifty: do you think I am going to want to work with them...:no:, but i still do-:laughing: it actually benefits them to give you a budget... and your either in the same ballpark.. or they are out in left feild... with out a glove mind you..:laughing:

,,, I just like to get down to business and get that out of the way first so I know what I am dealing with...and it works.. but there is one problem with this this platform... you have to ask! 

what I think a lot of us fail to do .. or not do... is be direct.. be upfront.....not in a cocky way... but handling it in a business manor..knowing what hat to put on.. what direction to go... 

I just assume crack the ice QUICKLY-:thumbsup:

ah...
just my thought on this ...

B,


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## mehtwo (Nov 14, 2010)

Any Season said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> She replied via email
> 
> ...


That guy may learn a lesson from low-balling and come to his senses. It may be the experience that'll stick out in his mind in the future.:thumbsup: You are obviously wise enough not to lower yourself to get kicked in the a** just to get work. The time spent on the next customer that is willing to pay for your work will be worth WAY more than the time you would've spent on a cheap customer. :clap: Good luck.


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## IanS (Sep 18, 2009)

You guys are over thinking this.
Sir or Maam who do you work for?
Lets call them and tell them you will work from now on for 1/2 or what was that figure you were qouting me?
The retirement plan? Nah....


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

IanS said:


> You guys are over thinking this.
> Sir or Maam who do you work for?
> Lets call them and tell them you will work from now on for 1/2 or what was that figure you were qouting me?
> The retirement plan? Nah....


There you go, take it one step further -

Yep, you're right in this economy there are lots of people out of work, what's your bosses number? Lets call him up and tell him the same thing and that maybe he should cut your salary in half cause there are plenty of people in this economy who are out of work. :w00t:


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## Gough (May 1, 2010)

InsideandOut said:


> "Thank you for your time, based on what you want to pay, and the way that I run my successful business, I cannot compromise what I do in order to have you as a client."


Thanks, I&O, that one's going up on the wall of my office.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> 1
> Shop the competition. Always get at least three estimates on any home repair or renovation job. This serves two purposes. First, you are doing your homework - you will be able to see the price range of what it costs to have the home repair done. Second, you can use this information to motivate contractors to lower their price. Let the contractors know that you are shopping around! Motivated contractors will want your business and are willing to negotiate.
> 
> Good contractors are busy enough they don't need to work cheap.
> ...


You should post this on the ehow article response. This is spot on.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

> Adopt the proper tone when negotiating. Tell the contractor what you need, then stop talking. If a contractor wants $10,000 for a job, and your budget is $8,000, give him that information. He who talks money first loses. Let the contractor be the one to lower his price, rather than you raising your budget.




Lower the price? Is that what we are supposed to do!!?? 

I always ask them what part of the project they would like to cut out to meet their budget!! :whistling


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Fast, Good, Cheap. You can pick any 2. I think that came from the movie "The Money Pit". So true


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## inmo (Feb 27, 2010)

I am starting to believe that contracting is no longer profitable. The market has become so saturated with discount contractors that I feel it has destroyed an entire industry. For every one responsible contractor there must be a hundred behind his back doing the work for next to nothing. Profit and overhead! Whats that? Large outfits might be able to weather the storm but imo I think the writing is on the wall.

With all do respect to my colleagues. Imo I think we only have ourselves to blame. While licensed trades like plumbing and electrical have managed to stand firm in their pricing. Other construction trades have allowed discounting to run them into the ground. Almost everyday on this forum a new or existing contractor ask what he should charge for a particular job. Each time he is shunned by this forum for asking. Imo we are only hurting ourselves by not helping others new to the trade or by sticking together with our pricing. I've said it before on this forum. I would rather have a new contractor compete with me on my level than for me to have to compete on his. Especially if he is working at rates that are unsustainable for a business and a industry as a whole.


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

inmo said:


> I am starting to believe that contracting is no longer profitable. The market has become so saturated with discount contractors that I feel it has destroyed an entire industry. For every one responsible contractor there must be a hundred behind his back doing the work for next to nothing. Profit and overhead! Whats that? Large outfits might be able to weather the storm but imo I think the writing is on the wall.
> 
> With all do respect to my colleagues. Imo I think we only have ourselves to blame. While licensed trades like plumbing and electrical have managed to stand firm in their pricing. Other construction trades have allowed discounting to run them into the ground. Almost everyday on this forum a new or existing contractor ask what he should charge for a particular job. Each time he is shunned by this forum for asking. Imo we are only hurting ourselves by not helping others new to the trade or by sticking together with our pricing. I've said it before on this forum. I would rather have a new contractor compete with me on my level than for me to have to compete on his. Especially if he is working at rates that are unsustainable for a business and a industry as a whole.


Next time someone posts a how much question and they're from your area, send them a pm ('cuz the thread will be locked down) and invite them out to lunch and teach them about the proper way to bid a job. Just giving them a sf or lf price does nothing to help them become a better business person. Better businesses become real competition. Lowballers will always be lowballers and they will always be there.

If you're having trouble differentiating yourself to a customer between a new contractor whose rates are unsustainable for business and your own business, you should review your sales techniques.


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

inmo said:


> I am starting to believe that contracting is no longer profitable. The market has become so saturated with discount contractors that I feel it has destroyed an entire industry. For every one responsible contractor there must be a hundred behind his back doing the work for next to nothing. Profit and overhead! Whats that? Large outfits might be able to weather the storm but imo I think the writing is on the wall.
> 
> With all do respect to my colleagues. Imo I think we only have ourselves to blame. While licensed trades like plumbing and electrical have managed to stand firm in their pricing. Other construction trades have allowed discounting to run them into the ground. Almost everyday on this forum a new or existing contractor ask what he should charge for a particular job. Each time he is shunned by this forum for asking. Imo we are only hurting ourselves by not helping others new to the trade or by sticking together with our pricing. I've said it before on this forum. I would rather have a new contractor compete with me on my level than for me to have to compete on his. Especially if he is working at rates that are unsustainable for a business and a industry as a whole.


INMO, stick to your guns--don't lose hope!! I live in an area that is an economic "barometer"--ask any real estate agent out here. When the economy drops, we are the last to feel the effects. When the economy starts picking up, we are the first to feel it. Things here are really starting to pick up. I'm not saying that we're out of the recession, but, in my opinion, I think things will be better in the next year or two. If you hold firm you will survive.

What these underbidding, undercutting numb nuts don't know is, that when they take these jobs without compensating for O&P, they get behind the 8 ball. That means on the next job, they'd have to charge that much MORE to compensate for it. But they're too dumb, so not only do they not charge the cost of the job with O&P, OR charge what it would take to compensate for the last job they took a wash on, but THEY CHARGE LESS AGAIN!!! These idiots will eventually weed themselves out. The problem is, and anyone knows who owns a lawn or garden, when you pull out one weed, there will be more coming right behind it. But when things pick up again, you'll be the go to guy because you held your ground & kept your reputation in tact. Focus on what you can control and ignore anything that you can't.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

inmo said:


> I am starting to believe that contracting is no longer profitable. The market has become so saturated with discount contractors that I feel it has destroyed an entire industry. For every one responsible contractor there must be a hundred behind his back doing the work for next to nothing. Profit and overhead! Whats that? Large outfits might be able to weather the storm but imo I think the writing is on the wall.
> 
> With all do respect to my colleagues. Imo I think we only have ourselves to blame. While licensed trades like plumbing and electrical have managed to stand firm in their pricing. Other construction trades have allowed discounting to run them into the ground. Almost everyday on this forum a new or existing contractor ask what he should charge for a particular job. Each time he is shunned by this forum for asking. Imo we are only hurting ourselves by not helping others new to the trade or by sticking together with our pricing. I've said it before on this forum. I would rather have a new contractor compete with me on my level than for me to have to compete on his. Especially if he is working at rates that are unsustainable for a business and a industry as a whole.


While your basic thoughts are good, I find it hypocritical and laughable that the person giving this advice about unity and bringing up the quality of contracting, is a guy who is registered as INMO. 

First things first, is for people to register using a real name and stand out exposed so everybody knows who everybody is. 

On a forum filled with anonymity there is no solidarity.

Can you imagine going to a NARI meeting or any trade group and everybody is meeting each other to discuss important topics and they have name tags on that say ROOFERPRO91, and refuse to give out a business card and want to be anonymous?


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

I would like to think that you are right on with the line that says: eventually these guys will weed themselves out.......

From my experience ( about 40 years worth ), they DO NOT weed themselves out. They are simply replaced with more of the same. 

There are increasing sources of marginally skilled, unlicensed, uninsured, Craigs Lister, non-business types that will constantly undercut those of us that do our best to follow the rules and be legitimate. 

What sources you say ?? Here is a short list: 
Illegal immigration
High school drop outs
Out of work construction workers
Outsourced workers
Graduates from a wealth of vocational shools
And just too many babies being born into single mother homes that have too many welfare kids already( no offense to hardworking single mothers, but you know what I mean)

You also have a growing population of immigrants from countries where the labor is exceedingly cheap, and, the quality of products is low. You have an increase in the number of cash strapped low and middle class that do not have the discretionary income or equity that past generations have had --- thereby causing them to go to low priced handymen and "contractors". 

What I predict is that the number of legitimate (at least by the standards we have been talking about) will decrease, while the number of these low priced types will increase. 






CENTERLINE MV said:


> INMO, stick to your guns--don't lose hope!! I live in an area that is an economic "barometer"--ask any real estate agent out here. When the economy drops, we are the last to feel the effects. When the economy starts picking up, we are the first to feel it. Things here are really starting to pick up. I'm not saying that we're out of the recession, but, in my opinion, I think things will be better in the next year or two. If you hold firm you will survive.
> 
> What these underbidding, undercutting numb nuts don't know is, that when they take these jobs without compensating for O&P, they get behind the 8 ball. That means on the next job, they'd have to charge that much MORE to compensate for it. But they're too dumb, so not only do they not charge the cost of the job with O&P, OR charge what it would take to compensate for the last job they took a wash on, but THEY CHARGE LESS AGAIN!!! These idiots will eventually weed themselves out. The problem is, and anyone knows who owns a lawn or garden, when you pull out one weed, there will be more coming right behind it. But when things pick up again, you'll be the go to guy because you held your ground & kept your reputation in tact. Focus on what you can control and ignore anything that you can't.


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

cwatbay said:


> I would like to think that you are right on with the line that says: eventually these guys will weed themselves out.......
> 
> From my experience ( about 40 years worth ), they DO NOT weed themselves out. They are simply replaced with more of the same.
> 
> ...


If you actually read what I wrote, I stated that these guys would be weeded out, but like a lawn or garden, more weeds will move in.


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## inmo (Feb 27, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> While your basic thoughts are good, I find it hypocritical and laughable that the person giving this advice about unity and bringing up the quality of contracting, is a guy who is registered as INMO.
> 
> First things first, is for people to register using a real name and stand out exposed so everybody knows who everybody is.
> 
> ...


 

What the heck are you talking about? Anonymity? Click on my moniker and you'll find all the information you need. How is that being hypocritical or anonymous? Obviously I have nothing to hide so why are you being a such an ass? All my information is available yet you attempt to disrespect me by suggesting something thats not. And I'm the one being hypocritical?? An entire industry is suffering and all you can contribute is a vain attempt to disrespect me because...... you don't like my moniker? Really? Don't you have anything better to do with your time? Btw, what the heck does my moniker have to do with solidarity or a NARI meeting anyway? To suggest otherwise is whats laughable. 

And, If you really must know, I chose "inmo" because its an abbreviation for "In Missouri" and its much easier to log in as such. I felt that my company name was too long to use each time I wanted to log on. There! Thats my big trade secret. I hope it makes you feel better now. Sheesh!


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## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

Mike does have a point. Not that INMO is hiding anything but as a hole most on the Internet are anonymous posters. 

I like and respect those that post who they are and were they are from. I also like when you can look up some one or their company and see who they are. I believe this gives someone a lot of credibility. As a rule most don't. 

This forum is especially reliant on this because of the very nature of what it is trying to do. 
Put together contractor pro's in an effort to share information pointed toward a very specific business.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

INMO - Settle down francis. :laughing:

Don't pull the disrespect card like a f'n pansy.

If you didn't understand the basic premise of what I wrote, keep it to yourself instead of acting a fool.

If you want to further the trades, the 1st step is to act as a professional organization of tradesman or real people, not a group of ROOFERPRO190, and INMO and HOTRODMAN.

You don't think there is any correlation on a forum of drive by guys named SUPERGC-21 who join up in 2 seconds and post their only post of How should I charge to remodel a basement?

Anonymity breeds that type of thing. And you're complaining about it and are no different. 

I'm not beating you up for who you are, I'm simply stating the obvious situation.

If people want a professional group of people, the first thing is to lose the anonymous nature of the forum, until you do that, you'll always have the drive bys.

Do you understand that? If you do fine, if not rant away about disrespect or whatever else you want to.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Ok, I stand corrected on the "more weeds" part. 

But I still wanted to get my point across and my 2 cents. 




CENTERLINE MV said:


> If you actually read what I wrote, I stated that these guys would be weeded out, but like a lawn or garden, more weeds will move in.


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

cwatbay said:


> Ok, I stand corrected on the "more weeds" part.
> 
> But I still wanted to get my point across and my 2 cents.


Sorry, I didn't mean to be snippy when I wrote that (low blood sugar). I completely agree on your post too. I'm of the school of thought that there are many successful contractors that have been in business for a long time; and these guys are competing with these "undercutters" just as much as anyone. So I guess my initial point was not to throw in the towel because of them, because obviously, people are able to not only survive competing against them, but be very successful. It's all about business & your strategy to gaining the competitive edge. I'm not a low-baller---at all, trust me--- and I'm getting jobs over guys with way more experience and "notches under their belt." and there is a huge illegal immigrant problem here too. I refuse to hire them & refuse to give my business to subs that hire them.


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## inmo (Feb 27, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> INMO - Settle down francis. :laughing:
> 
> Don't pull the disrespect card like a f'n pansy.
> 
> ...


 

Your premise was meant to insult. No if's, and's, or but's about it. If you think people should use their names say so but to insult someone as a laughable hypocrite pansy because they don't is totally unacceptable. How is that being professional? You've already shown you lack the credibility to lecture me or anyone else about professionalism. 

Furthermore, to suggest the use of a moniker on a open forum as unprofessional is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. About 98% of us use a moniker on this forum. Are all of us unprofessional laughable hypocrites? How do I know your really Mike Finley? You could be Mr. Magoo for all I know. You call yourself a professional yet your own hypocrisy is whats laughable. Shame on you.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

No, I am pretty sure that is really Mike Finley.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*ahh,,,,*

here we go.... WW III


B.


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## inmo (Feb 27, 2010)

jmacd said:


> Mike does have a point. Not that INMO is hiding anything but as a hole most on the Internet are anonymous posters.
> 
> I like and respect those that post who they are and were they are from. I also like when you can look up some one or their company and see who they are. I believe this gives someone a lot of credibility. As a rule most don't.
> 
> ...


 
J-M-A-C-D seriously? I guess that makes you a unprofessional laughable hypocrite to. Just kidding. Come on man. This is a forum. There is always going to be a sense of anonymity. People can come up with any name, info or moniker they want. Unless you are willing to verify each poster personally the point is moot. This whole thing is much to do about nothing. Finley is just trying to bust my chops. If I suspect a hack I won't respond. But to suggest the use of a moniker on a open forum as laughable, hypocritical, and unprofessional. Well, thats a stretch in my book.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Why is it that every double digit poster tries to take on a high posting member? I remember my days as a double digiter. I think it was Angus that I took on at the early stage. Boy did I learn my lesson.

INMO, my advice is to take a deep breath, listen, think and reread your post before clicking Post. Mike has been here a lot longer than most and probably has a pretty good grasp on things. This isn't prison, you don't have to take out the big man to gain respect on the yard.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Irishslave said:


> Fast, Good, Cheap. You can pick any 2. I think that came from the movie "The Money Pit". So true



"Two weeks"






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLcjUmBncZ8


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

My name isn't as cool as MIKE FINLEY, so I used my company name. Rob Estoll, just doesn't have the same...pop and snap as MIKE FINLEY.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> While your basic thoughts are good, I find it hypocritical and laughable that the person giving this advice about unity and bringing up the quality of contracting, is a guy who is registered as INMO.
> 
> First things first, is for people to register using a real name and stand out exposed so everybody knows who everybody is.
> 
> ...


How do we know your name is really mike finley? :whistling


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*I am ....*

Melivin P. Nivlem... in,Cognito...:shifty::laughing:

M,


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

*can't we all just get along?*


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

Tscarborough said:


> No, I am pretty sure that is really Mike Finley.


Oh there's NO doubt he's Mike Finley!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Decks dude, aren't you up in the Artic circle right now? They got the internet up that far?


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> Decks dude, aren't you up in the Artic circle right now? They got the internet up that far?


In Whitehorse, YT buddy!

Internet, HD Cable, running water, heat - all that good stuff...

FYI, it's probably been warmer here this week than at your place. So there!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

LOL, you are right. 20 below zero last few days, freak'n crazy cold!

Don't do anything to the caribou you wouldn't' be proud of. :thumbsup:


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Dierte said:


> Where can you get $25 a gallon paint? Walmart maybe :blink:


I can buy Sherwin Williams SuperPaint for less than that, and Duration for under 40. I buy about 200 gal / year or so.


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## RyanofWar (Jan 18, 2011)

Be Smart, Stay Humble!


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

Can you *REALLY* get jobs done in HALF the time as everyone else and still provide the same quality? Come on, let's be honest here.:whistling


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

smalpierre said:


> I can buy Sherwin Williams SuperPaint for less than that, and Duration for under 40. I buy about 200 gal / year or so.


Better off painting the walls with water. There is a reason it is less than $25.


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## mehtwo (Nov 14, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Better off painting the walls with water. There is a reason it is less than $25.


With water....eh? Is this what you had in mind TNT?:jester:










You can buy 'em cheap at Wal-mart.:laughing:


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## lockformer (Feb 6, 2011)

*When customers complain about prices*

That is when I tell them that if they think my price is high, they obviously haven't shopped around. The lowest price is not necessarily the best value. Often times that is true when someone bids low, they will come to realize (when they are half done) there is no money in the job, so they cut corners to cut their loss. I have also seen situations where they start a job, work one day and never come back.


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## Deckem (Jan 27, 2011)

I have gotten a few customers like this. I usually tell them this, The industry I work in is the only one where, a person can call and ask me to come out to there house (free of charge) and inspect what they want done, ask for a professional opinion (free of charge) and get an exact cost for the job, then have the nerve to look me square in the face and say "your too high" = I don't think your worth it". Then call me back after their other bids come in and say I like your work the best but the other guys are cheaper to which I reply "hire them" and then they say "but we really want to give you the job". I say "then hire me", and it goes back and forth this way. The one thing learned over years is NEVER DROP YOUR PRICE! In the HO's mind if you 10%, you can drop 20%. If they want a lower price take something away. This is the best way to add value to what you do. There is a reason alot of us here have been in business for many years, after all how good is a 10 years guarantee,if the company goes out of business in 6 months.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Better off painting the walls with water. There is a reason it is less than $25.


It's what people will pay for here unfortunately. I live in a ghetto city :w00t:

What else would you paint a house with that's 4000sf valued at under $250k? That Duration stuff comes out of the can like liquid latex - it's some gooey sticky rubbery stuff. I'd have to charge more for labor too, since it takes more time to apply. HO's around here don't go for that very often. I do a lot of replacing of rotten exterior trim, and replacing masonite cardboard with Hardi. Occasionally, board and batten cedar or cypress. Mostly people call me when their house is falling apart because they don't maintain them. I'm working on changing that, but I'm more of a doer than a seller.

And it's not that bad for what it is - you don't put high end stuff on tract houses ... Well, you CAN - but try to convince someone to do coffered ceilings in a $120k tract house lol! How bout a $100k mahogany bar in a converted garage in a $250k McMansion! It just doesn't happen often around here. I'm probably going to have to move to get into the niche I want to be in.

What do you use for exterior latex?

I'm working on breaking into the slim high end market here - mostly what's thought of as "high end" around here are McMansions. There are a few historical reno's around here though. A friend of mine works on a house designed by a student of Frank Lloyd Wright. Beautiful house with a HO that's not a cheapskate! And his Mrs. HO is uber hot rawr!


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> Can you *REALLY* get jobs done in HALF the time as everyone else and still provide the same quality? Come on, let's be honest here.:whistling


Who said that? If you're talking about the OP, I think he was saying that the "competitor" would do it by himself - taking twice the time, meaning he has somebody working for him. Extra hands speeds things up a bit, or they better be kicking rocks down the road 

Also, if you don't have a good procedure, that can slow you down to where it could easily take more than twice the time with lower quality. I've seen hacks doing some really REALLY stupid stuff - like using wood glue to stick down hardwood floor, and patching huge sections of drywall with a 5 in 1 and pint size things of spackle haha! "Dude, they make this thing called a "tape knife" ... they work much better!" I guarantee I could nail down the floor - and it would actually stay - and patch the drywall in a 10th of the time it took him to botch it - but I'm not going to do it for a $20 crack rock and a pint of cheap vodka ...


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

mehtwo said:


> With water....eh? Is this what you had in mind TNT?:jester:
> 
> 
> View attachment 42643
> ...


Can I spray that out of my airless? :clap:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

smalpierre said:


> It's what people will pay for here unfortunately. I live in a ghetto city :w00t:
> 
> What else would you paint a house with that's 4000sf valued at under $250k? That Duration stuff comes out of the can like liquid latex - it's some gooey sticky rubbery stuff. I'd have to charge more for labor too, since it takes more time to apply. HO's around here don't go for that very often. I do a lot of replacing of rotten exterior trim, and replacing masonite cardboard with Hardi. Occasionally, board and batten cedar or cypress. Mostly people call me when their house is falling apart because they don't maintain them. I'm working on changing that, but I'm more of a doer than a seller.
> 
> ...


That is where selling value is key. If you cannot sell the upgrade, then you are doing all that you know how.

I also don't think that paying an additional $300 in paint is comparable to coffered ceilings or mahogany bars.

I only use Benjamin Moore, interior and exterior.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> That is where selling value is key. If you cannot sell the upgrade, then you are doing all that you know how.


Oh really? We'll see about that! :w00t: My next few bids, I'm going to bring 2 estimates - one for BM, and one for what I've been doing. That's kind of an inflammatory statement considering that I go out of my comfort zone often, and I'm always trying to learn more, and do better. Fact of the matter is, I don't like to paint. I only do it because I'm already there replacing stuff, and don't have the volume to sub it out - YET! Anyway, if that's what you think - you got me all wrong. You would be right that I'm not the best salesman out there. You would be wrong thinking I am not doing everything I can to improve in that area.

If my material cost were to nearly double, my average paint jobs price would go up by around $500, not $300. It's not really that much more, but it's nearly %10 of a job. I've been going for more thorough prep, and actually priming - most of these houses were never primed - I think of it as being more important than the brand of topcoat, as long as it's not total junk. I thought of selling Duration, but it's so thick and rubbery, I'd have to add floetrol or something too.

The only reason I've been using it, is it's priced where I can make money, and they have a store less than 5 min from me. Then again, there is a place that sells BM right next to the lumber yard I get cedar / cypress siding from ...

BM has two exterior paints that I see on their site - ben, and aura. Which do you use? Or do they have a different exterior paint too?

And I think I derailed the thread :shutup:


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

smalpierre said:


> Oh really? We'll see about that! :w00t: My next few bids, I'm going to bring 2 estimates - one for BM, and one for what I've been doing. That's kind of an inflammatory statement considering that I go out of my comfort zone often, and I'm always trying to learn more, and do better. Fact of the matter is, I don't like to paint. I only do it because I'm already there replacing stuff, and don't have the volume to sub it out - YET! Anyway, if that's what you think - you got me all wrong. You would be right that I'm not the best salesman out there. You would be wrong thinking I am not doing everything I can to improve in that area.
> 
> If my material cost were to nearly double, my average paint jobs price would go up by around $500, not $300. It's not really that much more, but it's nearly %10 of a job. I've been going for more thorough prep, and actually priming - most of these houses were never primed - I think of it as being more important than the brand of topcoat, as long as it's not total junk. I thought of selling Duration, but it's so thick and rubbery, I'd have to add floetrol or something too.
> 
> ...


Maybe you WILL learn something new!


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

MALCO.New.York said:


> Maybe you WILL learn something new!


I learn something new every day.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

smalpierre said:


> Oh really? We'll see about that! :w00t: My next few bids, I'm going to bring 2 estimates - one for BM, and one for what I've been doing. That's kind of an inflammatory statement considering that I go out of my comfort zone often, and I'm always trying to learn more, and do better. Fact of the matter is, I don't like to paint. I only do it because I'm already there replacing stuff, and don't have the volume to sub it out - YET! Anyway, if that's what you think - you got me all wrong. You would be right that I'm not the best salesman out there. You would be wrong thinking I am not doing everything I can to improve in that area.
> 
> If my material cost were to nearly double, my average paint jobs price would go up by around $500, not $300. It's not really that much more, but it's nearly %10 of a job. I've been going for more thorough prep, and actually priming - most of these houses were never primed - I think of it as being more important than the brand of topcoat, as long as it's not total junk. I thought of selling Duration, but it's so thick and rubbery, I'd have to add floetrol or something too.
> 
> ...


Pierre,

I apologize, it was not my intent to inflame you in anyway. I just was telling it like I see it. In sales, in order to be successful, we have to change our perspective and understand why we are truly not able to sell a product. Is it our technique? Is it our presentation?

You made the statement that the cheap stuff is all they will buy. I contest that maybe you don't know how to sell it. There is nothing wrong with the statement. I was not saying that you were incapable of learning how to sell it. We really need to be honest with ourselves. You admit that this is something that you don't like doing, so I doubt you put your best effort in honing your sales technique in this area.

BM sells several lines and I use them all. It depends on project, but none are $25 a gallon.

Lesson 1: The cheaper the paint the more solvent in it. Solvents are what drive the paint. They evaporate and you are left with the resins and pigment. More expensive paints have finer pigment and more resin to hold the pigment together. You get better coverage and a stronger finish. Buying cheap can cost you more in the long run.

At 4000 sq ft to paint it should not cost you $500. Even at 250 sq ft coverage per gallon, and an additional $20 per gallon, you cost is an additional $320. I have under estimated the coverage and over estimated the cost. I don't see $500.

Understand that I am not trying to tear you apart, but help you out. I would recommend learning as much as you can about paint, and then sell the value of upgrading to your customer. Will it work every time, no. But the last thing that you want is house paint that lasts 2-5 seasons and looks like crap again. You also want to protect the repaired surfaces as much as you can. Putting crap paint on a repair is not protecting your repairs. Even people in track homes would rather not have to repaint in 3 years.


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