# short brick wall on concrete patio



## cwlo (Jun 6, 2007)

This is beyond my expertise: Customer wants to pour a concrete patio, and then lay a brick wall on the perimeter approximately 18-20" high. This is in Chicago. I told him a mortar brick wall on a concrete pad was not a good idea. Short of pouring a full footing to below frost line, what are the common ways of doing this. If its a dry stack brick wall, would this require a crushed gravel base to lay on, or could it be laid right on the concrete patio.

Thanks,

Chris


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## DJ9222 (Apr 28, 2009)

Pour footing for wall, build wall, pour patio.{expansion joint between wall and patio}......Good Luck:thumbup:


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

A drystack brick wall? Im assuming youre talking about the newer type of 'brick siding'?

Either way, never a good idea to put brick on something that moves.


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

im sorry,but i would not be afraid to lay 6 or 7 courses of brick on a patio without a damn footer.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

stacker said:


> im sorry,but i would not be afraid to lay 6 or 7 courses of brick on a patio without a damn footer.


You consistently show no fear! I too would think you would be ok....but if the concrete is not down yet just thicken the edge and throw in some of that long skinny metal stuff.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

See the only problem I have with it is what do you do when it heaves? Theres got to be a transition between the brick and the rest of the house, and when that concrete heaves up and pushes that transition what do you do?

I think you will have problems come your next freeze/thaw cycle and will get a call saying why is my siding, or whatever is above the brick getting ruined.

How about instead of putting the brick on the slab, you bolt an angle iron to the wall, lay your brick up, then run the concrete with expansion joint of course, into the brick?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I am just glad that the only frost heave I have to worry about is from drinking my Slurpy too fast.


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## cwlo (Jun 6, 2007)

*Couple comments*

Thanks for the replies.

The brick wall will be freestanding and separate from the house, so there is no issue of it moving differently from the house. 

If a short brick wall is built on a thickened edge slab, it seems that it should be reasonably durable. My bigger concern would be the necessity of the slab having a slight pitch towards the short brick wall. (and away from house) Any water will then flow towards the wall. Granted, weep holes could be put in, but I'm sure there would be some areas where water would collect, and then possibly freeze/heave.

So, lets say a thickened edge slab with a raised brick ledge so that the brick will be a few inches above the slab. Put some short sections of pvc pipe through the raised concrete ledge every couple feet to allow water to pass through. Any small movement of the concrete slab will take the brick with it. Perhaps some vertical rebar every couple feet to tie the wall and concrete together.

Its not a full footing, but seems like a durable economical solution?

Thanks,

Chris


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Do it with SRBs.
http://www.techo-bloc.com/


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

since the floor will pitch towards the brick wall.i would,instead of pvc,leave a full brick out on the bottom course,every 2 or 3 feet.or even just a half brick.

lucka,i agree with what you are saying.if the concrete isnt poured yet,sure thicken up the end where the brick will set.
and lucka the only time i showed fear was when i walked into the bar and seen two brooms in the corner.my first thought was my ex wife and her mother were there and parked their rides inside the bar.:blink:


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## zookies (Feb 27, 2009)

Just as long as he pours a 6" pad you should be ok. Add some rebar and I think you've got a good bomb shelter too.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Should be footed, but probably ok. Just don't abut anything solid and match control joints with slab (if any).Haunched, thickened edge will also do the trick when placing slab, just sprinkle with kryptonite and ur good to go. And most of all, just ask the AHJ, as i'm sure they'll have an opinion.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

This is a drystack brick wall (whatever that is) if there is shifting and it falls over or leans just restack or shove into place. No need for anything to drastic.


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## D-TEK (Mar 29, 2010)

BE CAREFUL! If I were you, I would design and build the job the way that you feel is correct (Footer). It's a pretty sure bet that the HO wants to skip on the footings due to cost and you as the contractor, wants to be as flexable as possible to ensure you get the job / referal. It's all good, until the brick starts to fail or the concrete cracks....even after you advised against doing it this way. They won't be comming after you legally because deep down they know you were right, but they will want you to fix it. You'll come back a few times and repoint / replace, trouble shoot. In the end, best case, someone will ask the HO about their patio. Their response...." SO-and-SO installed it, great guy but we have had nothing but problems with the patio, not real sure if he knows what he is doing." It's human nature to throw blame. Even the most stand-up customer will sooner or later get sick of dealing with the failed patio at their kingdom. At the very least, a deep monolithic pad with a brick ledge. Trench drain the bottom of the pad to slow water infiltration. I would seriously push for the footer.


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

I dry-stacked a brick wall alongside a slab on the compacted base and it went through a winter ok, then this past winter it went out of plumb, away from the slab.

However, this wall is about 4 feet tall and made of fairly irregular soft red brick. I did use what I call a "garden wall" construction which is a course of brick two wide with the next course going "through" the wall perpendicular to the one below it. Repeat. There is also a pretty good curve to the wall.

Anyway, it is out of plumb maybe 4" in 4'. I'm not going to worry about it too much and if it gets real bad or if some kid runs a bike into it, I'll just re-stack on the slab beside it. The reason I didn't put it on the slab from the get-go is that I didn't want to take 8" away from the slab.

One interesting thing is that I shoveled the snow away from the inside of the wall (slab side) and threw it over the wall on the outside, where it was stacked up over 4' high. The ground here was soft all winter because we got a lot of snow early. However, the temps were down to -20 often enough. I believe that if I would have left the snow on both sides of the wall, it would not have heaved. I surmise that the slab side raised up as the frost went under and the other side stayed warm.


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