# Proper way to set a toilet



## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

I've set or reset a few toilets, and they haven't leaked, but I was wondering about some different ways I've seen it done or finished. I've seen people grout around the base of the toilet, caulk the base of the toilet, and/or set it on a bed of plumbers putty. Are any of these proper/standard or just a personal preference? Also, do you set up the toilet without wax first and set shims to make sure it won't rock before you finally set it?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

No grout
Usually no caulk...that will get a lot of comments
Wax ring on the toilet
Double nut the bolts
And I rarely have to use shims


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

dielectricunion said:


> Also, do you set up the toilet without wax first and set shims to make sure it won't rock before you finally set it?


That's the way my plumber and I have always done it.

...about the caulking thing, you may get two different answers here.

If the toilet overflows and there's no caulking, the water can run down into the room below. (Just fine if its sitting above an unfinished basement)

...if there is caulking, it will flood the bathroom and possibly adjacent rooms.

Your choice.

-Scott


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Double nut the bolts


Why come?

You mean above and below the wax ring, to keep the closet bolts from moving during the set?

-Scott


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

tenon0774 said:


> Why come?
> 
> -Scott


Keeps them from loosening.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tenon0774 said:


> That's the way my plumber and I have always done it.
> 
> ...about the caulking thing, you may get two different answers here.
> 
> ...


Hopefully it never floods, but where it floods shouldn't be a consideration on choosing to caulk or not.

Caulking is done for sanitary reasons. You keep urine and mop water from going under the toilet. And when caulking I leave a small gap in the back to allow any leak to show itself.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tenon0774 said:


> Why come?
> 
> You mean above and below the wax ring, to keep the closet bolts from moving during the set?
> 
> -Scott


 Yes above the flange to hold them in place while setting the toilet.


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

All of the toilets I've set were on floors that were not perfectly flat. Is adding shims the proper way to keep it from rocking or can you normally tighten the bolts enough to hold it still on a less than perfect floor? Or is there another option?


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

dielectricunion said:


> All of the toilets I've set were on floors that were not perfectly flat. Is adding shims the proper way to keep it from rocking or can you normally tighten the bolts enough to hold it still on a less than perfect floor? Or is there another option?


Shims are the best way.

You don't want to over tighten those bolts because if you hear that distinct "clink" sound, you snapped the base.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tenon0774 said:


> Shims are the best way.
> 
> You don't want to over tighten those bolts because if you hear that distinct "clink" sound, you snapped the base.


Or pull the bolt through the plastic flange.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Or pull the bolt through the plastic flange.


...or that.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Last few years in San Francisco and nearby, the inspectors have checked that the toilet was caulked. I just spent a moment looking for any local amendments on the subject and didn't find one, but anyway we now always caulk.

I wouldn't say that flooding is a consideration, but if an owner overflows a toilet or the tub, or spills water on the floor, I'd rather have the damage be localized to their screwup, and not have it appear below. In multi-unit buildings I'm really aware of this as a liability question.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Can't remember if it's code or not....

But as I recall toilets have always been caulked. :thumbsup:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

In our neck of the woods, the inspectors check to confirm it is caulked and doesn't rock...


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

No caulking code around here but in commercial.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> No caulking code around here but in commercial.


Residential & Commercial out here....:thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

griz said:


> Residential & Commercial out here....:thumbsup:


I have heard that a lot on here that most places are. Funny that one of the most regulated states doesn't require caulk.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

dielectricunion said:


> Also, do you set up the toilet without wax first and set shims to make sure it won't rock before you finally set it?


I cut four 1" pieces of wax ring and place them at 90 degrees each around the trapway. 
Set the toilet on the flange with bolts, lift off again and view the thickness of the 1" pieces of wax.
This will tell you how much room there is between the flange and trapway. 
Sort of like a plasti gauge.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Shim if needed and caulk for me.
Just repaired two toilets in a 7 yr old home that the plumber used something that dried out and was all broken up. Not really sure what it was. Super cheap 99 cent caulk I think. 

Please never use silicone. I love to try to clean that stuff off.:no:


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I clipped a comment from a home inspector forum: 

"The IRC and the UPC both *require* the toilet base to be caulked to the finish floor. (IRC, 2705.1; UPC 407.2)"


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## fourcornerhome (Feb 19, 2008)

My plumber shims with pennies, wood shims can compress. Inspectors here want to see caulk on front and sides, no back.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> I clipped a comment from a home inspector forum:
> 
> "The IRC and the UPC both *require* the toilet base to be caulked to the finish floor. (IRC, 2705.1; UPC 407.2)"


That's great, but it's not code everywhere, so.....


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> That's great, but it's not code everywhere, so.....


"Are you kidding? When I was your age I would lug 50 pounds of ice up five, six flights of stairs."
"So what?"
"So what? Well let's dance!"

cranks up Journey: "Anyway you want it...."


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

If you are using a wax ring you are doing it wrong as far as I'm concerned.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

California 2010 Plumbing Code 

407.2 Joints. Where a fixture comes in contact with the wall or floor, the joint between the fixture and the wall or floor shall be made water-tight.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> If you are using a wax ring you are doing it wrong as far as I'm concerned.


Please elaborate.


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

OP is concerned his toilet would rock because his floor is not level . Instead of shimming we always set the toilet in a bed of plaster mixed with water and a little binder . After leveling toilet , caulk around perimeter . If installed correctly no water should ever come in contact with plaster . Solid as a rock , and never had a call back . It really works great , an old school plumber showed me this wayback and i was a little skeptical at first . Now i wouldnt do it any other way .


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

fourcornerhome said:


> My plumber shims with pennies, wood shims can compress. Inspectors here want to see caulk on front and sides, no back.


I thought that I was the only one that shimmed with pennies. 

That's what I used to fix a rocking toilet in a basement where the concrete stopped about 1/4" below the flange. Because the gap is so wide, the toilet is really sitting on pennies at all 4 corners with them tucked invisibly behind the caulking.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

I always set the wax ring on the toilet, place it and if needed,shimmed in the back with small plastic shims. I always make sure when i shim, that the front of the toilet is touching the floor. I always Caulk around toilet but always left the back open incase a leak occured it would show..

I once removed a toilet that the plumber caulked with something that was like pl premium construction adheasive!!. that toilet took 20 minutes to slice the "caulk" out...


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Hopefully it never floods, but where it floods shouldn't be a consideration on choosing to caulk or not.
> 
> Caulking is done for sanitary reasons. You keep urine and mop water from going under the toilet. And when caulking I leave a small gap in the back to allow any leak to show itself.





CarpenterSFO said:


> California 2010 Plumbing Code
> 
> 407.2 Joints. Where a fixture comes in contact with the wall or floor, the joint between the fixture and the wall or floor shall be made water-tight.


That's how it's supposed to be around here which is why I do what TNT does - leave a gap in the back if I'm going to caulk. Some toilet manufacturers actually specify caulking the bottom of the toilet before setting it. American Standard has done that in the past, IIRC.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

skyhook said:


> Please elaborate.


He's probably old school and uses plumbers putty.


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## Brian Peters (Feb 2, 2011)

They make a non wax gasket for toilets... but I'm not a plumber so I'm not gonna elaborate


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

Maybe hes talking about something similar to this..


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

Rich D. said:


> Maybe hes talking about something similar to this..
> 
> View attachment 88097





Brian Peters said:


> They make a non wax gasket for toilets... but I'm not a plumber so I'm not gonna elaborate





TNTSERVICES said:


> He's probably old school and uses plumbers putty.





skyhook said:


> Please elaborate.


I hate that sewer smell when I walk into a bathroom. I suppose when all is right, some of those remedies do work. Rotten subfloors are always moneymakers, when that is fixed and the smell is gone, the HOs are soooooo happy.


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## alboston (Feb 22, 2007)

He could be talking about a Fernco wax free toilet seal.


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## future plumber (Apr 4, 2013)

tenon0774 said:


> Shims are the best way.
> 
> You don't want to over tighten those bolts because if you hear that distinct "clink" sound, you snapped the base.


Ok i got a funny story my friends..i was doing a big job for a lady that underpaid me. And she was acting like a total b#@$h so when i was thightening the tank to toilet screws i overthitened one and i kracked that cheap porcelin 300 $ toilet..so i tested it with water for 10 min and got no leakes.so i kaulked it and left it.. its been two weeks..how much longer till you think i will get the call back..and what should i tell her. To get out of paying gor it myself and make it look like its her fault.


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## Brian Peters (Feb 2, 2011)

future plumber said:


> Ok i got a funny story my friends..i was doing a big job for a lady that underpaid me. And she was acting like a total b#@$h so when i was thightening the tank to toilet screws i overthitened one and i kracked that cheap porcelin 300 $ toilet..so i tested it with water for 10 min and got no leakes.so i kaulked it and left it.. its been two weeks..how much longer till you think i will get the call back..and what should i tell her. To get out of paying gor it myself and make it look like its her fault.


And you think that's a funny story??


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

future plumber said:


> Ok i got a funny story my friends..i was doing a big job for a lady that underpaid me. And she was acting like a total b#@$h so when i was thightening the tank to toilet screws i overthitened one and i kracked that cheap porcelin 300 $ toilet..so i tested it with water for 10 min and got no leakes.so i kaulked it and left it.. its been two weeks..how much longer till you think i will get the call back..and what should i tell her. To get out of paying gor it myself and make it look like its her fault.


Wow! This place is not for you. We are professional here...not scam artists!


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

future plumber said:


> Ok i got a funny story my friends..i was doing a big job for a lady that underpaid me. And she was acting like a total b#@$h so when i was thightening the tank to toilet screws i overthitened one and i kracked that cheap porcelin 300 $ toilet..so i tested it with water for 10 min and got no leakes.so i kaulked it and left it.. its been two weeks..how much longer till you think i will get the call back..and what should i tell her. To get out of paying gor it myself and make it look like its her fault.


Cracks happen at the the factory. Overtightening the bolts will cause porcelin to shatter, not crack.
If it's not leaking it will probably last for years. 

Looks like the joke is on you *future plumber,* scabbing plumbing jobs and complaining about being underpaid, then you sabatoge the work to get even. 
Post on PZ for your next beat down ->http://www.plumbingzone.com/ I doubt they will be so easy on you.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

future plumber said:


> Ok i got a funny story my friends..i was doing a big job for a lady that underpaid me. And she was acting like a total b#@$h so when i was thightening the tank to toilet screws i overthitened one and i kracked that cheap porcelin 300 $ toilet..so i tested it with water for 10 min and got no leakes.so i kaulked it and left it.. its been two weeks..how much longer till you think i will get the call back..and what should i tell her. To get out of paying gor it myself and make it look like its her fault.


You could start by learning to spell crack and move upwards from there.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

I've always caulked around the toilet leaving about 1 inch at the back un-caulked. I've thought that if there ever was a wax ring failure, that 1 inch gap would expose it quickly. (I don't know why you'd get a wax ring failure if you're carefull to get a good sit-down test on the ring, but I've sure seen alot of rotten flooring at the ring when I've pulled old work)

My thought with calking was both to prevent an overflow from migrating under the toilet, but also to add a good firm multi-point support to a toilet that normally needs some shimming. I do use a good "microbial" silicon, figuring it helps to prevent any mold/growth.

If it's a little more difficult to clean off in any future re-set, I don't think that a big deal.

I've never asked my inspectors, but I've sure never had a problem.

Peter

PS: Why would we want to use a wax-less seal. What are it's purported advantages. Seems a wax set is kinda of a time proven seal (except for the rotten wood I've sometimes found).

Has anyone have good/bad experience wiith it.

I got called by a friend for his "Toto" toilet that he had a hell of a time with odor and a bad toilet seal. (Thought maybe it was a dry floor drain nearby but it wasn't. It was the toilet seal.I couldn't help him as I never set one and it is really different) but that seal (waxless) gave him repeated problems and multiple recalls of plumbers. Someone apparently figured it out and it's been good for about 6 months now.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

fourcornerhome said:


> My plumber shims with pennies, wood shims can compress. Inspectors here want to see caulk on front and sides, no back.


Why would one need shims?
A) Closet ring mis-aligned or too high.
B) Wax gasket with reinforcement adding height. 
C) Sub-floor rotten, not level.

Rather than shims, how about just fixing the problem.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

skyhook said:


> Why would one need shims?
> A) Closet ring mis-aligned or too high.
> B) Wax gasket with reinforcement adding height.
> C) Sub-floor rotten, not level.
> ...


Or a crappy tile job. :laughing:


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## bob hutson (Mar 16, 2013)

cut the pipe and raise it or add a new flange/ fix the floor. Im new on this site but have set alot of toilets I wouldnt just trust wax ring to seal the water...


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## essrmo (May 2, 2007)

bob hutson said:


> cut the pipe and raise it or add a new flange/ fix the floor. Im new on this site but have set alot of toilets I wouldnt just trust wax ring to seal the water...


i have set a few myself. the stinky ones had a wax ring that was not smashed tite and stuff leaked out with every flush. most had calking on the outside so the urine getting under from sloppy users theory was impossible.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Some new floors in old houses are not flat / level. Ignoring tile work, usually whoever did it got it as good as it's going to get without *very serious* work. Gutting a bathroom to keep from shimming is over the top for these.


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## Doctor Handyman (Mar 13, 2012)

Well this thread is not too old and based on some of the comments I feel this is an appropriate place to add todays toilet setting experience.

HO's husband (now deceased) had done the tile work. Uneven, but nothing a shim won't fix. I typically use pieces of laminate samples or scraps of FRP if I need more thickness.

Biggest problem was the toilet was installed by the city during their "Low water consumption get a free toilet week". Whatever yahoo they had do the install broke the closet flange. Not entirely their fault because the flange was installed at an angle and not level. They probably did not realize no matter how much they tightened it, no way it was going to sit flat. Their solution was to use 10d nails shims; one of which ended up cracking a tile.

I thought about the options and would appreciate the plumbing pros solution. 
1. Install a threaded post into the flange. You know, the kind that is a wood screw on one end and a machine screw on the other.
2. Use one of those ss repair flanges and then shim like heck because the existing flange would still be off.
3. Sawzall off the flange and install a new flange and screw it into the concrete floor using ss screws in plastic wall anchors.

I went with option 3. Worked great, no rocking and no leaks. Only concern is this type of flange has a rubber gasket that fits into the 4" ABS resulting in a smaller inside diameter. Still more than 3" so probably not a big issue but I am not an expert.

So what other ways would a real plumber fix this?


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## BThomas (Apr 21, 2013)

Hi all - New here but have been at JLC for years. I am a carpenter but have been remodeling for many years and worked with the best plumber (God rest his soul) who taught me the how and why of setting a toilet. 
Eaglie said it best but here is the reason.

Years ago the toilet was required to be set on tile and sealed to the floor or if the floor was wood a marble base was necessary under the toilet. The bowl is set dry over the flange and a pencil mark drawn around the base so you know where to lay out the plaster. Put the wax seal on the bottom of the toilet - mix the plaster wet and spread it over the pencil line - set the bowl over the johnny bolts and into the plaster and put a level across the bowl. Tighten the bolts to level the bowl getting it tight at at least one point. Take your finger and wipe the plaster under the bowl and remove the excess with a damp rag.

The plaster should be under all of the bowl not just the front and sides. The purpose of the plaster is two fold. One - it will let you set the bowl level and solid. Two - It seals the bowl from the floor not to stop water or urine although this is good, but to seal the humid air from getting under the bowl where the cold water being flushed will cause condensation on the outside of the toilet trap that is under and out of sight and will seep around the flange at the bolts and rot out the floor under the bowl. Even with tile or marble any condensation under the bowl will seep past the flange bolts. Of course on a concrete floor you only use the plaster to level the bowl.

On a further note and as mentioned earlier - the plaster of today cracks easily and some sort of additive or a grout is a better solution. Todays plaster was changed to allow a lot more working time and is does not hold up like it did years ago. Years ago you did not have much time to set and clean the plaster before it was dry.

Sorry for the long story but too many people don't know why they do things even if they do it right. These forums are a great source of information. Keep up the good infomation
BThomas


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