# Not going to get this job!



## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

Different strokes for different folks but theres many times where i've changed just a couple panels out of a damaged door which saved the HO money. Maybe its because there are none, 0 $90,000 kitchens in my area where its all just the avg working man trying to live a decent life.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Because we all live in 10 million dollar houses, and as a result can only do a 10x10 bathroom for 100k, and even then only if it suits our sense of style ...

Must be nice!!!


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

jkfox624 said:


> Different strokes for different folks but theres many times where i've changed just a couple panels out of a damaged door which saved the HO money. Maybe its because there are none, 0 $90,000 kitchens in my area where its all just the avg working man trying to live a decent life.[/QUO


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

jkfox624 said:


> Different strokes for different folks but theres many times where i've changed just a couple panels out of a damaged door which saved the HO money. Maybe its because there are none, 0 $90,000 kitchens in my area where its all just the avg working man trying to live a decent life.


Nothing wrong with that. Just different business models is all. Im lucky to have a large resort community nearby. I know a lot of contractors that build/remodel working guys homes and make more scratch than I do.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

smalpierre said:


> Because we all live in 10 million dollar houses, and as a result can only do a 10x10 bathroom for 100k, and even then only if it suits our sense of style ...
> 
> Must be nice!!!


Thank god for those people.


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## larryb (May 23, 2008)

Top panel...saw it right away


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## tileman2000 (Feb 14, 2011)

So, did you get the job?


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

speaking conversationally------ what do you suppose is missing in someones life that they would even consider pizzing away $90,000 on a kitchen ?

how nice a cupboard do ya NEED to put away your cheerios in?,LOL
stephen


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

I hear ya Stephen, at that point it just becomes American overindulgence. Fortunately though, those are exactly the people that feed our economy. The super rich don't really spend at all, so it's the middle,lowish wealthy that crank this economy and us. 

I see nothing wrong with his unpainted top panel. It was probably a DIY project to try and impress the wife. Isn't a shoes off at the door THE type of customer you guys ARE looking for?


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

jkfox624 said:


> Different strokes for different folks but theres many times where i've changed just a couple panels out of a damaged door which saved the HO money. Maybe its because there are none, 0 $90,000 kitchens in my area where its all just the avg working man trying to live a decent life.


You aren't kidding. That's why I left the area. Born and raised in Portville. Been in Atlanta since '03.

Matt, I know what you're talking about. Most of the times it's not as subtle as not replacing the top panel on a garage door. I'll go to homes to bid a kitchen or bath remodel and their exterior is literally falling apart. I've already committed to the bid, so I try and keep an open mind. And much to my surprise, I've landed a few of them.

My initial screening process over the phone usually steers me clear of the "take your shoes off at the door" type of people. And I'm ok with that.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

I noticed no garage door apron.

I haven't seen a garage door repaired like that, but seen plenty of siding that cheapo's and hack contractors have "repaired" that looked similar.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Stephen H said:


> speaking conversationally------ what do you suppose is missing in someones life that they would even consider pizzing away $90,000 on a kitchen ?
> 
> how nice a cupboard do ya NEED to put away your cheerios in?,LOL
> stephen


If your worth 50 mil 90000 ain't ****. A lot of kitchens cost much more. 3 times that. I love those:thumbsup: When rich people spend money it puts a lot of people to work, who then spend their money in the local economy. Win win bud. So thanks to the guy dropping a mil redoing his weekend home.


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## Splinter hands (Aug 31, 2011)

Around here we have both types. We have a large well known lake where the higher paying jobs come from but then there are the locals who are not very wealthy at all. I work for them both. The jobs on the lake always are better paying jobs because of the fact that those clients usually are looking for high end materials and are willing to pay for the extra time it takes to do high end work. On the other hand most locals are just looking for something that will work and want the cheapest materials possible and have the I don't care if it's square it's good enough for me attitude. I can slap it up if you want or I will do exceptional work when it comes to those who want it. For the slap it up clients I ALWAYS explain to them that this is not the best way to do things but if it is what you want me to do I will "within reason safety and codes are never compromised" just things related to finishing touches etc. that make a project look great in the end or just so-so.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

Stephen H said:


> speaking conversationally------ what do you suppose is missing in someones life that they would even consider pizzing away $90,000 on a kitchen ?


Not money. As a slate roof specialist I'm sure you see it all the time...


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

jawtrs said:


> If your worth 50 mil 90000 ain't ****. A lot of kitchens cost much more. 3 times that. I love those:thumbsup: When rich people spend money it puts a lot of people to work, who then spend their money in the local economy. Win win bud. So thanks to the guy dropping a mil redoing his weekend home.


It makes me feel good when people break the $100,000 mark on a kitchen. :laughing:


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

jmiller said:


> Not money. As a slate roof specialist I'm sure you see it all the time...


 Jmiller,
I see what you mean,LOL
in our case however most of our customers are people of fairly modest means and in many cases $90,000 would be over 50% of the value of the house.- Most of our customers are simply trying to preserve 80-100 year old roofs-----which usually makes a lot of sense on the tile roofs we work on--but often not so much sense on the slate roofs

stephen


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

IT's not a reliable sign. You NEVER know who's gonna buy and who isn't.
2 examples:
35 years ago I was selling Hondas. Kid comes in, maybe 17. Stank a bit, rude, cigarette in your face, bad attitude, real punk, but I tried to be patient and talked to him.
3 days later he comes in with his mom, and they laid down $4500 cash for a brand new Civic. Mom took me aside and thanked me for treating her son like a human being. 

Couple years ago, I went to give an estimate for a fence. The house was ramshackle and there was a beat up old Chevy in the driveway. They wanted a very high end tongue and groove cedar fence. It came to $14,000. They gave me a $5000 deposit on the spot, and paid in full when done. I'd have spent the money on either replacing the siding or the car, but, hey, who am I to say.

As a footnote to the first story. The kid wiped out the car 3 months later, and came in with the insurance money and bought a second car. Wouldn't talk to any one except me. 


When I go to see a client, I keep an open mind, since you really never know. I've sold jobs to old women, young women, young and old men, gay men, lesbian women, (I think once I had someone in between), manual labourers, company CEO's. I have seen good attitude, bad attitude, horrible B.O, , even worse breath. Once had a guy wearing long johns with skid marks on the back. Had a cat lady with 300 cats ( I couldn't go into the house because of the stink). Had another whose house smelled so thickly of curry I didn't go near the door. 
Had a naked woman, once. (she wouldn't get dressed, so I conducted the entire estimate with her nipples (nice ta-ta's) staring at me. )
I've had a LOT of people who know my business better than me(I'm sure you've had a few of these)
I've had black, white, beige, yellow, red, eastern, western, European, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, German, Italian, Greek, JEwish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, even Wicken people. 
Each ethnic group has common characteristics, but I've sold to all of them. 
I have found that you can just never ever tell for sure who is or isn't going to buy. There just don't seem to be any reliable "tells".


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## RS Sam (Feb 9, 2009)

Sounds like Toronto is a hopping place :laughing:.


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

RS Sam said:


> Sounds like Toronto is a hopping place :laughing:.


Yes,very much so..:laughing::laughing:

I don't have any problem taking my shoes at the door, don't like to be told, so usually I make attempt to ..some says "no, it is OK, come in", some stay silent..it is their castle and I RESPECT THAT.....until I get the job,.....
















then I cover my path with RamBoard.








.


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## Evan1968 (Dec 5, 2010)

Stone Mountain said:


> Had a naked woman, once. (she wouldn't get dressed, so I conducted the entire estimate with her nipples (nice ta-ta's) staring at me. )


"Excuse me ma'am. Are those things on or do i have to talk louder?"


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Evan1968 said:


> "Excuse me ma'am. Are those things on or do i have to talk louder?"


:lol:


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Stone Mountain said:


> IT's not a reliable sign. You NEVER know who's gonna buy and who isn't.
> 2 examples:
> 35 years ago I was selling Hondas. Kid comes in, maybe 17. Stank a bit, rude, cigarette in your face, bad attitude, real punk, but I tried to be patient and talked to him.
> 3 days later he comes in with his mom, and they laid down $4500 cash for a brand new Civic. Mom took me aside and thanked me for treating her son like a human being.
> ...


I know what you mean however I have my own tips on certain things.

I find that Brown(Eastern Indian) people dont like to spend money. They like to spend it if its their house and never if its their rental. So I always say firm price and never chop.

Chinese love to bargain,you jack up the price and chop from there,so they feel like they won.

Philippinos,real sweethearts, you pump price a little and tell them you italian,so they melt(I guess has to do with common religion) and jus give them a small discount,they will go for you no problems.

My own nation never has problems of paying for quality or paying what you ask for.

Most of white people I dealt with,great people,some douches.

One thing,I want to say(AND I AM NOT RASICT),all jamaicans(NOT BLACK PEOPLE,JAMAICANS) I have dealt with,its like bend over and just ask how much more...Whether guys who worked for me or ones I worked for. Never enough,always stupid attitude,lazy,high requirements without base,think you came off Bronx Tale movie and planning to beat their ass.Hard to stay positive.


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## kcremodeling (Nov 8, 2009)

I know exactly what you mean. I put so much emphasis on the little details, it would be nice to know that these details are actually getting noticed. 

I think the point that the Dr. was trying to make is this... If you don't care about the little details then you might as well go with the lowest bidder. If you are a contractor that is producing quality results then why waist your time with people who don't appreciate your hard work.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

kcremodeling said:


> I know exactly what you mean. I put so much emphasis on the little details, it would be nice to know that these details are actually getting noticed.
> 
> I pulled up to bid a basement yesterday. There was a 1x6 missing from the front of the house. There was actually exposed OSB. The gutters were not draining (it was raining) and the exterior was in serious need of a paint job. This was just the tip of the iceberg. The interior was awful.
> 
> I think the point that the Dr. was trying to make is this... If you don't care about the little details then you might as well go with the lowest bidder. If you are a contractor that is producing quality results then why waist your time with people who don't appreciate your hard work.


10-4 that was the point!


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

RemodelGA said:


> You aren't kidding. That's why I left the area. Born and raised in Portville. Been in Atlanta since '03.


Haha really? It seems Olean and Allegany are doing ok but bradford is and has been dead for years. The only thing we have going for us is zippo which has cut its workforce considerably and the university which comes with its good and bad.


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

Big deal....I'm working for a brain surgeon right now who drives a beat up pick up truck, wears ratty old clothes, and could give a sh!t. They've spent close to a million in the last three years. If you pulled into one of their two properties you might get the idea they're deadbeats....

So one panel is off...you don't know the situation as you pull in the driveway. The Pic in the OP showed an off color panel, but the everything else is on the up and up...That's pretty snobby to judge by those standards! 

It is what it is I guess...Some things mean more more to folks when they depend on superficial, materialistic indicators to be the judge. If you disagree provide a better example of a red flag!


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## kcremodeling (Nov 8, 2009)

When I go to meet with a client, it is as much as an interviewing process for them as it is for me. I am the owner/operator that is on site completing a large percentage of the overall project. Once you take on a project you are married to it until the project has been completed. I think we have all been in a situation where a client has been unfavorable to work with. 

As a professional, you should be able to identify indicators that suggest problems could arise out of a potential project. 

I just want to be appreciated and respected. If I am feeling that from the client than I am more than willing to work with them.


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## kcremodeling (Nov 8, 2009)

WNYcarpenter said:


> l....I'm working for a brain surgeon right now ... spent close to a million in the last three years.


When I first read this I'm thinking:no: Yeah right, but I looked as some of the pictures you posted and have to say that you are probably telling the truth. Nice work.:thumbsup: 

An example of a "Red Flag" that I occasionally encounter is when somebody wants work done immediately. An unrealistic timeline is a sign that there may be an unrealistic budget as well.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

WNYcarpenter said:


> Big deal....I'm working for a brain surgeon right now who drives a beat up pick up truck, wears ratty old clothes, and could give a sh!t. They've spent close to a million in the last three years. If you pulled into one of their two properties you might get the idea they're deadbeats....
> 
> So one panel is off...you don't know the situation as you pull in the driveway. The Pic in the OP showed an off color panel, but the everything else is on the up and up...That's pretty snobby to judge by those standards!
> 
> It is what it is I guess...Some things mean more more to folks when they depend on superficial, materialistic indicators to be the judge. If you disagree provide a better example of a red flag!


The brain surgeon in a beat up truck and the drug dealers who need a fence are far and few between. I simply posted my thoughts and you simply found an exception. The exception to anything can typically be easily argued when negativity is your focus. You did add to the conversation and thanks for that but calling someone out as snobby for starting a conversation with regards to his observations is obtuse at best. Best Wishes!


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> The brain surgeon in a beat up truck and the drug dealers who need a fence are far and few between. I simply posted my thoughts and you simply found an exception. The exception to anything can typically be easily argued when negativity is your focus. You did add to the conversation and thanks for that but calling someone out as snobby for starting a conversation with regards to his observations is obtuse at best. Best Wishes!



Not where I'm at. I work for a lot of people who actually work for a living getting dirty & sweating. Judging them by appearance can be a huge mistake. I need to take some pictures of some of the farmers & the vehicles they drive. I'm betting you wouldn't waste your time on them.

Those same people, have an $250,000 combine & 2 tractors worth over $100,000. If they want it, they can afford it. Going into a situation with preconceived notion that you're not going to get the job because of something superficial, is a huge mistake. But, I like guys like you in my area, & we've got a lot of em. I come in & sell what they wouldn't waste their energy on.:whistling


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

You shouldn't have negative thoughts before you knock on the door, not to mention before giving your proposal, it's insecurity issue and you will never get a job with that attitude, so think positive because you never know.

Now that aside, first of all, you should take your shoes off in someone's house, that is not only a sign of respect or an etiquette, it shows allot about your personality and to make this easy for yourself, have a package of booties, slip them right over your boots or shoes and you done with it. Just a small gesture like this, can get you the job, because you just stepped over the threshold and you already show respect for the HO's house and the hard work they do, to keep the house clean...people respect that and it goes a long way.

Everything else is up to you to sell the job...like anything else its always 50/50 you click or you will bomb out.


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## holmesismyhero (Jun 6, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> I know what you mean however I have my own tips on certain things.
> 
> I find that Brown(Eastern Indian) people dont like to spend money. They like to spend it if its their house and never if its their rental. So I always say firm price and never chop.
> 
> ...


Wow.

When someone says "I AM NOT RACIST", pretty sure you are. Any statement that contains that sentence... well...

Best way of avoiding work is by prejudging a situation. 

"Oh crap, the HO is brown, I ain't gonna git this job"... why bother quoting. If you have a problem with certain demographics, why not make your life easy and put on your business cards "Renovations for white people and those cute sweetheart catholic philipinos".

The broad stereotyping you have made is racism. The very definition of it. Anyone, with any amount of experience, is going to have good and bad relationships with all groups of people. And one of the things we teach our children, in this country, is to be tolerant of all people, regardless race, creed, color or country of origin. 

_"My own nation never has problems of paying for quality or paying what you ask for." _ Really? Really? C'mon... Really? Seriously?

By prejudging (the base word for "prejudice"), you only hurt yourself. I have met many, as you put it, brown people who are whiter than white when it comes to business and attitude. And I known many whites who are _"stupid attitude,lazy,high"_... and yes, even some Italians, Serbians and Russians. Not every Jamaican is Bob Marley. One of the best crews I had back in Toronto included a Trinidadian and a Jamaican, it was great fun watching them compete on tasks. They would work like demons in Canada for 6 months, and then go home for six months. It was really interesting to hear the different techniques they need to use in the Caribbean, mold, termites, hurricanes. You want to learn diverse use of masonry products? Work a season down there...

Or write the entire country out your life, and lose out...


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

holmesismyhero said:


> Wow.
> 
> When someone says "I AM NOT RACIST", pretty sure you are. Any statement that contains that sentence... well...
> 
> ...


 
Last I checked we lived in free country and freedom of speech was available to everyone.

However,I will take on your statement. If you noticed not a single time in whole post did I generalize.I said all jamaicans I have dealt with. Not all jamaicans. I think you need to read closely before you make these sort of statements.

I run my business and I will decide who to sell and how to sell,if it hurts/doesnt hurt me,why you care?

I have my own reasons for my tips of selling contracts to people.


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## holmesismyhero (Jun 6, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I pulled into guys driveway for a kitchen remodel and seen this.
> 
> 
> View attachment 56831
> ...


Glass half empty says "Homeowner too cheap to paint door". 

Glass half full says "Homeowner has initiated a repair on the garage that hasn't been completed yet, and is looking for a great contractor that can get things done properly, on time and on budget."

If, in the picture, the door was weathered, dirty and obviously had been left that way a long time, I'd agree with you 100%. But maybe the HO backed through the door by accident. Or maybe the wife or teenager did. (wouldn't want to stereotype and suggest them first). 

Rather than letting the door speak, a simple question at the start of the quote will set the tone. "I noticed your garage door, would you be interested in having me look at that too, or do you have someone already taking care of that?" Doesn't cost a thing, and lets the HO know you have an eye for detail, and like having things look proper. Not a bad way to start, and if he says "No, its fine", then you have your answer, and give a quick Home Depot quote and get out of there...


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

My mantra is "Stand and Deliver" When I quote a job I simply stand and deliver the quote. If they have questions I answer them. If they try to change the price I tell them, " I understand that you may be looking for something less expensive but this is our price for this project." It's really just a matter of take it or leave it. I try to bring as little emotion to the table as possible.


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## holmesismyhero (Jun 6, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> Last I checked we lived in free country and freedom of speech was available to everyone.
> 
> However,I will take on your statement. If you noticed not a single time in whole post did I generalize.I said all jamaicans I have dealt with. Not all jamaicans. I think you need to read closely before you make these sort of statements.
> 
> ...


Well said. You couldn't have made your point any clearer. Freedom of speech is an American right. In Canada, we have the "Freedom of Expression", which is not absolute.

_Under section 318 of the Criminal Code of Canada, it is illegal to promote genocide. Under section 319, it is illegal to publicly incite hatred against people based on their colour, race, religion, ethnic origin, and sexual orientation, except where the statements made are true or are made in good faith. The prohibition against inciting hatred based on sexual orientation was added to the section in 2004 with the passage of Bill C-250. _

So, actually, you nave broken Canadian law, really... if you want "Freedom of Speach", better move south.

As to why I care, I dislike seeing people pre-judged based on colour of skin or religion, or even country of origin. Its not what the concept of free speech was meant for, I find disseminating hate in the name of free speech repugnant.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

holmesismyhero said:


> Well said. You couldn't have made your point any clearer. Freedom of speech is an American right. In Canada, we have the "Freedom of Expression", which is not absolute.
> 
> _Under section 318 of the Criminal Code of Canada, it is illegal to promote genocide. Under section 319, it is illegal to publicly incite hatred against people based on their colour, race, religion, ethnic origin, and sexual orientation, except where the statements made are true or are made in good faith. The prohibition against inciting hatred based on sexual orientation was added to the section in 2004 with the passage of Bill C-250. _
> 
> ...


I suggest you re-reading my post...quoting Constitution of Canada is not going to help you to justify fact that you are F**king up.

I did not express hatred of racial prejudice against anyone. I expressed my tips on dealing with certain people from certain ethnic groups.

However,just like most beaurocrats you would prefer to add race card and tint of prejudice to the whole conversation.


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## holmesismyhero (Jun 6, 2011)

I guess the problem is that you don't understand that what you've said is racist, stereotypical or demeaning. You see them as "helpful tips on dealing with people of certain races or ethnicities" based on your limited experience as a 24 year old mason/contractor.

It is sad that you haven't been fortunate enough to deal with people that would change your over simplified "Homer Simpson's Eyes" view of the world. I envy you the epiphany that will happen once your eyes open to all the world has to offer...


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Interesting thread. I have read all of it. I pretty much quit comprehending after the part about the interview with a naked lady. Mostly spinning my wheels from that point, going through the motions of reading the word on the screen. 

I left. Now I am back and still wondering how in the h*** something like that happens.

Would that not be a red flag that things could go wrong pretty quick?


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

while it is true that you can never tell for sure in advance---

if you have any success in business I am sure you have rules of thumb which come from LOOOOOOOONG experience----------

that give you a sneaking suspicion that this is not gonna be a sale ( call 'em streotypes)

but you can never tell------- our current project is a good project for us- we will be there 6-8 days-when I first looked at the project in august i had high hopes from the initial phone call-- then upon seeing the house I figured "No EFFING WAY" are they gonna put this kind of money into this house------------ but a few weeks later the homeowners daughter phoned me from california to give me the go-ahead and overnight expressed a 50% deposit check to us-and EVERY morning the homeowner comes out onto the porch when we arrive and says" thank you for coming today ,we are SO lucky to have you do this work"

so ,you never can tell
Stephen


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> The brain surgeon in a beat up truck and the drug dealers who need a fence are far and few between. I simply posted my thoughts and you simply found an exception. The exception to anything can typically be easily argued when negativity is your focus. You did add to the conversation and thanks for that but *calling someone out as snobby for starting a conversation with regards to his observations is obtuse at best. Best Wishes*!


You're right, I apologize....I should have used more discipline when I replied to your thread. 

You have a business to run and I can't blame you or anyone for picking up on clues/biases that aren't a good fit for the business...However, the clues and biases we pick up on are individual and define us, not the industry! 

I don't agree that the OP has enough evidence to suggest anything. I provided one example (exception), but I can offer more. Others have... I wasn't there so I have no idea....Trust your gut... 

There are a few here that would agree that some of their best clients came from leads they least expected. You never know!! That's the point I was trying to make.

Someone's tag here says...I never lost money on a job I didn't take (or something like that).....That makes sense too.....


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I agree with both sides but lean way harder towards Ohiohomedr. In my area we are one of the highest prices, and I market towards high end remodels and renovations, and maybe a custom once a year. I don't want tire kickers or people shopping prices, I want our name to be synonymis with quality and high end. I want prospective clients to know before they call we aren't going to be the low bidder or close to it.

I am certainly not a snob. I came up through the trades as I am sure most of you did. I do know that our company has the capability to deliver a superior product, and that 99.9 % of the time if the guy wants a three bedroom ranch with 50% brick I'm not his guy. When I was a kid my old mans crew built and remodeled the hell out of your average 3 bedroom ranch. Nothing wrong with it at all. But there are a **** load of guys who build those things for 100 a foot, and we didn't want to be a small fish in a big pond. To much hassle. We aren't the top dog yet but eventually I hope that our name will be at the top of list for people who want a 100000 kitchen or a million dollar remodel or custom. I don't see how that makes me uppity.

To deal with the marketing issue I Google search there addresses and decide by location often whether its worth my time. I'm a busy man, as I'm sure they are, why waste my time or theirs if its in a **** neighborhood. Statically I'm not getting that job 99 times out of 100. 1% percent isn't worth my time unless I'm out of work. Doesn't compute. We qualify on the phone, ect. If I roll up and the place isn't well kept, I will tell you I'm giving them a highball of the top of my head estimate before I waste my time with a bid and scope. If they freak, its cool. I'm polite, refer them to a guy who will give them what they want. Lots of guys will use particle board cabinets from Lowes. I know at that point our company's systems and our subs are to high for them. I can't change our system and I won't change subs, not to mention my crew is well paid . Nothing to do with snobbishness, I'm a business man, I have to make a profit. To do that you have to know your competition, your systems, your prices, and your ideal client.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

pinwheel said:


> Not where I'm at. I work for a lot of people who actually work for a living getting dirty & sweating. Judging them by appearance can be a huge mistake. I need to take some pictures of some of the farmers & the vehicles they drive. I'm betting you wouldn't waste your time on them.
> 
> Those same people, have an $250,000 combine & 2 tractors worth over $100,000. If they want it, they can afford it. Going into a situation with preconceived notion that you're not going to get the job because of something superficial, is a huge mistake. But, I like guys like you in my area, & we've got a lot of em. I come in & sell what they wouldn't waste their energy on.:whistling


Pinwheel, I am a big fan of your posts and this one is no different. I have a large rural area here, a lot of ranchers. We have done some nice work on some of their houses, but most still want prices from 25 years ago, in my experience. I'm not judging any one in a negative way, I am a working guy who is making a modest living like most. My point though, is that a mechanic who works at the dealership gets my name from the internet, and wants a new kitchen, he's not generally not going to drop his annual salary on it. I'm not saying I wouldn't go and talk to him, absolutely. But before I invest a lot of time in a detailed bid and scope, which is how we do business, I will peobaly ask his budget and tell him my ballpark at the first meeting. I know I can't drop 25000 on a kitchen.

Also I would like to point out the Dr didn't say he shunned these people and refused to bid it. He said what I'm saying, still go through the motions and try to sell it but I will have my own doubts from certain indicators. He doesn't sound dumb enough to tell someone their money isn't good enough for him if they pay his price.


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

Look at the other side of the coin! I have lost a lot of jobs back in Toronto, not that I was well qualified for to do the job, nor higher bid than others,but simple I was not in "certain ethnic group". Sale made by me-white skinned guy,then my dark skinned crew had turned from job a few times,white guys requested with no shame!. Can not change the minds of people, what else I can do?. Do it and get out! 
Once I was scheduled to do a job with the material loaded and showed up,and when we arrived another crew was started already; same as HO's ethnic. I was naive enough not asking contracts/deposits at that time, hand shake:no:HO's reason:I was $20 high!BS. Never bothered to call me before, but I could see they were more comfortable working with their own guys. Lesson learned, from that day on, never done a job without deposit & contract!
All that was perfectly fine with me, thanks god, I had enough jobs for the people who have asked me to do the job professionally.
Please,don't take it personally, Italian204, but I must have un-collectables about 100K from Italians in first 10 years of 20 years when I was in Toronto(all without good reason-faked bankruptcy etc.) But I must have made 400K from Italians who had paid me. Rate was too high, I started really start pre-qualify them in the last 10 of that years. That rate went to %0.
I had a good Jewish customer base in there,the same rate was 1% compare to %25!Why bother with others!
When I move to US, I rarely had/have the issues as above compare to everyday back in Toronto. :thumbsup:I did jobs over 2 dozen states, never faced those problems. Note that I moved to a South state which is known more conservative. Still no dealing with that BS. People in US simply wants the job done professionally,properly, timely and within the budget,with mutual respect. I am much happier than when I was in Toronto.
Times are changed too..internet made easy for the people to find what they are looking..seen the past/current projects..opened up people's mind in every way.
Personally I found, the clients are more demanding,asking additional work without pay if they are in the same ethnic as you are. But for me:No pay-no work!
It is one's own business and they can choose the path/client they want.That goes same for the people looking someone to do their project.
It is an ocean and there are plenty of fish for everybody.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I always treat everyone with respect. I have a millionaire friend who does not own a nice pair of jeans so I understand the combine point as good as anyone. My point was not discriminating in nature. For me ethnicity, religion, or appearance means nothing, I am in a service business and that is always what I attend to do serve. I merely posted an observation and wondered if others have those subtle thoughts, apparently some do, so don't. In this case I was right. Just got feedback that I was outside their budget, go figure. Onto the next one. Thanks for the responses!


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

astor said:


> Please,don't take it personally, Italian204, but I must have un-collectables about 100K from Italians in first 10 years of 20 years .


I am not taking any of this personally. This is a great post with a lot of good information.

I appreciate everything you said. There are a lot of dishonest italians out there,however like I mentioned in my post,I described people I have dealt with...I never labeled a particular race/ethnicity/color,I simply expressed how I felt towards people of some ethnicity due to the reasons the treated me.

I had plenty of ******* white/chinese/brown and of all color (including italians) customers.

But one thing that unites most of this people is their ethnic characteristics.

Certainly there are some brown people who are whiter than white when it comes to business.

However it does not take away on fact that there is always 20 to 1 margin on Eastern Indians as far as ones I have dealt with.

Its not an insult,just description of people I have dealt with.

Meantime,people like holmesismyhero try to play race card. Never was one never will be.

Dollar does not have a color.


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

LOL.. I had watched an East Indian stand up comedian, don't remember his name now..he is from Canada..
He goes.." _Now as Indians we have to admit that we just come second to Chinese when it is about being cheap!!_" :laughing:
I will try to find it!


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Try Russell peters


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## SeanInOnt (Jan 7, 2011)

My own nation never has problems of paying for quality or paying what you ask for.


HahahahahahahahahahahhaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahHhaahh

That comment damn near made me spit my supper out

Hahahahahahahahhaahahahhahahahah

"since you're here can you..."
"u giva good price ona dis one I gots lotsa work for u"
"dats a too mucha my sona in Ottawa come do it foe 1/2 dat"

Hahhahhah no thanks I don't want to be paid in partridge and shltty wine


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Funny enough, I bid on lots of high end stuff and it's these type scenario's, in which you feel you have no chance, (for whatever reason)...you sometimes get :thumbsup: Many of my professional relationships have been made on this basis and proved to be profitable.

How on earth could a garage door panel color difference sway anybodies view on a potential lead. It not a bad looking brick arch above the door - obviously a two car garage...Doesn't look like a slum. I just don't get it.

Why not sell'em some paint on the door if it bothers you so much?

Sounds like the door *wasn't* the contributing factor in your preemptory feelings about this lead. 

Heck, I have doors sprayed out all the time to match the trim...


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

superseal said:


> Funny enough, I bid on lots of high end stuff and it's these type scenario's, in which you feel you have no chance, (for whatever reason)...you sometimes get :thumbsup: Many of my professional relationships have been made on this basis and proved to be profitable.
> 
> How on earth could a garage door panel color difference sway anybodies view on a potential lead. It not a bad looking brick arch above the door - obviously a two car garage...Doesn't look like a slum. I just don't get it.
> 
> ...


True it was one factor of many. I treated it the same way as usual regardless. It just gave me a feeling thats it, and I was right.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

All of this over a garage door panel? Really?!

I bet the guy who did my landscaping project this year over looked my rusted out gutters that were missing downspouts although I do that kind of work.

Treat everyone you meet the same. Rich - poor , black - white. Their money is all the same color - green. You never know who will want to hire you, no matter the cost.

I have gone into Best Buy and gotten blown off when looking for a TV (all because I'm young). After getting ignored long enough I went to Circuit City and got treated properly. Bought two TVs. Took the reciept to Best Buy to show the manager. (worked there in HS). I am sure it didn't matter to the manager but I wanted to prove a point. Same thing happened when I bought my truck.


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> True it was one factor of many. I treated it the same way as usual regardless. It just gave me a feeling thats it, and I was right.


But maybe on the flip side maybe your gut feeling walking in the door changed your attitude enough that you may have come off in a way you typically aren't. Some people are as thick as an eskimos coat but others can be offended by perceived attitudes. Alot of our ability to get jobs falls on the homeowner feeling comfortable with us.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

jkfox624 said:


> But maybe on the flip side maybe your gut feeling walking in the door changed your attitude enough that you may have come off in a way you typically aren't. Some people are as thick as an eskimos coat but others can be offended by perceived attitudes. Alot of our ability to get jobs falls on the homeowner feeling comfortable with us.


Maybe but I dont think so. Solid presentation just outside their budget. I think some of you guys took me wrong with this. I should have more precisely described my intentions. They could of had no garage door and I would of approached it the same but it just gave me a feeling. Next time I will close my eyes all the way to the door.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Man, this is crazy. The guy didn't say he turned around and left or that he acted or represented his company or himself any different than he normally would. Just that he didn't see this particular HO paying his price. I suspect most people on this forum have felt that before.

MOST sterotypes have some truth to them.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

Wow. What a range of opinions. 
I have my own experiences with various ethnic groups, and there are definitely certain characteristics common to people of those groups.
There's one group that you might call the clipboard type: they write down everything you tell them, and compare contractors very carefully. They rarely argue price.
There's another group that will bargain hard, but once a deal is struck they will stick to their end of it religiously.
Another group will fault you on the tiniest thing: if you promise 2 nails per joist and miss one, it becomes a federal case. However, if do do exactly what you promise, no more and no less, you are their best friend.
Another group always knows more than you do about what you are doing, and they never let you forget it.
Yet another group will bargain so hard until you almost wind up paying them for the priviledge of working for them.
A common thread amongst another group is that they'll pay even if they aren't happy.
Yet another always wants to change the deal halfway through.
My own ethnic group always expects me to cut my own throat because "we're bros".
Finally, there is one group (unfortunately mentioned by others above) that I do tend to stay away from. They are often deadbeats, and will reneg on anything, after the fact. They don't seem to have any conscience at all. However, on the pretense that I'm not a racist, I won't mention who, although it is nice to see someone else express the same feeling I have about this group.

I'm very careful not to say which group is which. The simple fact is that when I go to see them, I adjust my pricing, presentation and tactics to fit the client. If you go up to the door with your own "attitude" it's gonna be an uphill battle, no matter what.

One more story.
In 1977 I was selling Honda cars (I may have mentioned that). One day this "farmer" drives into the lot in a huge mid 60's Oldsmobile that smoked black, shuddered and shook, and seemed as if it could barely move under it's own power.
This was Friday morning before a long weekend, and the other salesmen in the showroom were more interested in their plans than having to work, and when the receptionist called for a sales person to help the guy, everyone disappeared as if by magic. I was the newby, and I was left standing there like a deer caught in a car's headlights.
Anyway, I walk over and talk to the guy. All 400, sweaty, stinky, one piece overall covered (with suspenders), rank, dumb pounds of him.
He points to a yellow Civic and says "how much?" Well sir, that car is a CVCC with an advanced pollution control system, a 2 speed semi automatic, hatchback model with the optional carpets, and dealer applied pin striping, and aluminum wheels. 
"I don't care about that" he says; "how much". $4,645.00 including tax and licence. "When can I have it?" Monday.
Harrumph. Turns around and walks out. 

1/2 hour later, he phones, asks for "the guy with the beard". That's me. "How much was that" he says. Again I tell him $4645.00

45 minutes later he walks back into the dealership with a certified bank draft for $4645. Tells me he wants the car, and he'll pick it up at 4PM. Here in Canada, we rarely roll a car the same day, as they have to be PDI'd, licenced, and registered. However:
I held my nose, as I think he stank even more, wrote the contract, and told him I'd see him later. After calling the bank to verify the cheque, I gave $10 to one of the mechanics who pdi'd it then and there. I personally drove down to the licence office and registered it. Then, suit and all, I helped the detail guy wax and vaccum it.
Delivered it at 4PM. got paid $250 commission at 5 PM.
When he rolled over the curb in his nice new Civic, (into which he barely fit), the other 4 sales people and the dealership owner gave me a standing ovation. 

The point, again, and again, and again: doesn't matter who, or what, they are, you can never ever discount or ignore a potential customer by how they look, speak, or smell. Or if they have a multi-coloured garage door.


Hey, sorry to write such long stories. When I get started I have trouble stopping!


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

SeanInOnt said:


> My own nation never has problems of paying for quality or paying what you ask for.
> 
> 
> HahahahahahahahahahahhaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahHhaahh
> ...



Its normal to human nature to get as much possible for as little as possible.

You must have met some random characters. Or you simply dont know how to deal with italians. Same way I dont know how to deal with jamaicans...

That does not take away from fact that I have never left a single italian house with empty stomach or empty hands.
Must be something wrong with you.


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## shesaremonclus (Nov 24, 2008)

if you have done any retail sales you quickly find out that everyone is a customer and that anyone comming in is a possible buy


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## garagebuilders (Oct 10, 2011)

Screening new leads over the phone is what I try to do anymore. It's too expensive these days to drive out and find out they can't afford me...


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

when it comes to wealthy people, there are people who have money, and people who appear to have money.

those who have money dont talk about money. they prolly dont drive flashy cars and prolly have nice stuff, but not flashy and wont brag about any of it.

the other type will talk about how rich they are almost everytime, and drive flashy cars, have the best of everything in their house, and have loans for all of it.


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