# Replacing the knob & tube



## mdcorreia (May 21, 2006)

In residences I only do service upgrades except when the customer wants 1 or 2 new rec. etc. in the kitchen, outdoors etc. 
Yesterday I was called for a service upgrade and found out the customer also wants the whole house rewired - the existing wiring is knob & tube the insurance demands it rewired.
This house is very well kept, emaculate all over, even has some burgundy boards wood paneling in one living room wall, a design in the ceiling, beautifull carpets all over, ceramic tiles on the kitchen counter (2 rec there), the existing 4 receptacles per bedroom 2 are on the floor close to the outside wall, all baseboards are the old style, the attic is full of blown insulation and no room to reach down to the outside walls areas, the basement has beautifull solid wood paneling all over including the outside walls and also 2' x2' solid wood in the ceiling. (except one small utility area). One could drill from the basement at 45 degrees and come out at the outside wall then in towards a receptacle- but the stucco is colored - very difficult to repair to match.
This is one of the biggest challenges I ever had in 25 years. The customer ( a retired couple) said ` we will fix the damage you need to rewire` 
My approach is: (I want him to do some DAMADGE HIMSELF - it helps when in court later.) I will tell him to take a hammer and do a few hard strikes close to all receptales, lights, switches and at the corners where the ceiling meets the walls, remove or also do strikes in all paneling, remove half of the antique furniture (all over), move out for 12 days and then I will charge them $200 per opening. 65 items x 200 = $13,000.00 + $1,500.00 for a new service. With a lot of damage made by him I think he will not take me to court otherwise I would have to charge another - say $8,000.00 for when he sues me later for overwhelming obstruction (in his view) , dust, damage to walls etc. (This house can not be rewired without damadge to walls and ceilings) Perhaps a few outlets can be but it will take probably 5 hrs or so each.
The way he was talking to me I sensed that other contractors had an approach of criticism because this is a truly job which will likely turn into a nightmare. I put in a good act to remain quite calm but after a while I could sense his frustation re -emerging from his last estimate encounters.
I have to give him an answer soon. I don`t want ever to do this job. (Someone like us has to do it. This house has to be rewired.
) The reason I would like YOUR INPUT on how you would deal with such a situation is that if this call came from a general contractor who gives me work often, then I can not really refuse it. I am sure that many of you had similiar encounters. As I said this is the worst in 25 years.

I would really appreciate some honest comments. 

Respectfully, Best Regards to all of you.
Manuel


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

What ever happened to time and materials? I would think it would be in both parties interest to go that route. But, it is helpful to give people an idea, or guestimate, of how much work (money) a job will take (cost). 

A good job on the task you are facing could lead to a ton of referals. But, if you have that sick feeling in your stomach, RUN! Most of the time gut-instincts are dead-on.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

That type of job sounds like it really sucks. I always hate just telling a customer they'll have a few drywall patches to be done, let alone all that beautiful woodwork.

I would not ask a customer to damage their house that just sounds unprofessional.

Couldn't you coordinate with this general contractor on all the access points you need so that he could do the removal for you properly and then also the repairs?


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Do it T&M and use a contract stating there WILL be damage to be fixed BO.

What scares me is the fact that you are absolutely sure you WILL be sued. I have to ask, as you serious about this? You would work for someone you assume will sue you even though they know the scope of the job? I thought it was a joke unitl I re-read it and saw how serious you were.

Also, do you feel you are ready for such a large project? Form the sound of things I think I would ask youself that question....


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## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

I would never ask a customer to damage his house. I would do the job with explicit wording in the contract regarding the damage that will occur. Sounds like you could make some good money here. I agree with bringing the GC in to provide some assistance regarding access. Also, have you considered the wide variety of surface conduit available? There are some nice looking products out there for jobs like these.


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## DaveH (Jun 2, 2006)

These guys are all on the money! I would involve a GC to do the demo and repairs. I would also draft a contract that allows you to do your work and not be sued. You should state that you are only responsible for your labor, materials, and installed items. Also state that any items that remain in the residence at the time of the work can be damaged and you will not accept any fault for damages incurred to them due to your own negligence or someone else's. It sounds braod but with remodels you have to paint the contract with a wide brush.


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

I have some questions that might help you make a decision as to how to proceed on this job. Is there an issue of the cost of doing the required work? I ask this because you stated that the customers are a "(a retired couple)". Is the Insurance company, local inspector or someone else mandating an upgrade of the whole electrical system or just the electrical service? If there an issue of cost and the requirement that the entire electrical system be upgraded I would suggest that you install surface mount raceway. Using a surface mount raceway system will limit the cost, satisfy the electrical upgrade, and ease your reluctance and concern over doing the job. Using a surface mount raceway has some pros and some cons and in this case maybe more pros. I am not a big fan of this type of wiring but sometimes it is the only way to do the work. 

Let us know how you make out.


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## briselec (Feb 14, 2006)

I did a similar job a few years ago. It was a big place that had been split into 4 units with one large one being the owner's residence. The council had ordered the place to be rewired with a date it had to be finished by and the job couldn't be done without cutting many holes in the plaster. The owners were getting desparate as the deadline was looming and every contractor they had contacted before us wouldn't touch it. We put in writing that we would be cutting holes and would patch them but not repaint. They put the money in a real estate trust fund before we even started to assure us we would get paid. One of our guys spent over 2 days there just patching holes. We made over $5000 profit on two weeks work. Would do it again without hesitation.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

I did one almost similar last summer. Ship-lap paneling on a diagnal pattern on 3 walls. Told the general he had to remove it above the switches and then replace it. When I got there to start the work, of course it was all still in place. 

So I removed it myself, note; 40 year old wood is very brittle. spent 2 hours, didn't damage any of it and did my work.

Came back to trim out, all the wood was removed and they painted some god-awful stripes on the walls, oh well.

"wire-mold" is never an option for me. I wouldn't put my name on the way it looks, and I don't trust its safety. Its amazing how destructive kids can be.


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

You could start a new thread on "wiremold" that probably would go on forever.:shutup:


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

"You would work for someone you assume will sue you even though they know the scope of the job? I thought it was a joke unitl I re-read it and saw how serious you were."

Sounds like expereince to me...
Sounds like lots of law suites too!
It never ceases to amaze me how people are. I have a lady getting ready to sue me, for doing exactly what she asked.....She forgot she actually had to pay to have work done...


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## brian11973 (Apr 13, 2006)

You could suggest that HO check out other insurances companies. I have done several service changes due to fuses, not ever was I told anything about the K & T. You know, the 30 amp fuses on 14 ga wire. This would take some time for insurance co underwriters to decide, what about putting AFCI breakers on the K&T? This would help with arcing due to bad solder connections. Are there solder connections in the home? Not all K&T has buried taps.( I did a kit remod on a 1950's house. All taps in the boxes, with black, red, white & green!)

As for the lawsuit (?) Do you have a lawyer? I am not doing another job for a "unknown" without a contract that has been approved by a lawyer! My contract is 6 pages and growing. It will cover EVERYTHING that I will or will not do. From the installation, to cleaning up, to the warrantry. With an itemized list of outlets, appliances, etc. AND Change Work Orders! ( Nothing like, to accused of not doing what you agreed to, then accused of stealing the scrap! HO kept changing her mind!)If it scarres someone, I probalay don't want to work for them anyway.

I have been told, here in OH, you have to give a Right to Reciend "form" on top of ANY paperwork going to the "buyer". I am told it states that they have 3 days to change their mind, no questions. What do you do if they what it changed right now? Again get a lawyer for this one.

Once applied for job. The owner wanted to know if I could patch plaster, remove & reinstall trim, etc. He did rewires in winter, underground work in summer. So you would not be the only one patching.


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## mdcorreia (May 21, 2006)

Thank you all for the repplies. They did inlighted me to come up with a better workable response. 
The suggestion that the owner damage the walls was more of a psycological test to get a customer`s reaction.
The suggestion of a proper contract involving a lawyer is good one as long as one adds the cost to the price.

This job was an insurance requirement. I did not waste time in writing anything yet. I gave them a PRELIMINARY estimate - This way we waste less time with `tire kickers`. I tel. the owners and told them `the service costs $1,400.00 (average around here), remove all the panelling, expect lots of holes in the walls (I would patch but not paint) and the rewiring job would be a DOWN PAYMNET first, then TIME + MATERIALS and, (this is my new inovation) expect at least a MINIMUM cost of $8,000.00 (the service is seperate). I have not heard from them yet.
I posted today so as to let you all know how it went so far.

Another point this brings up is: People think an ESTIMATE is something written in stone. An exact price would be called a quotation. However from now on when I give an estimate I will also state the miminum expected cost. Never the maximum unless I am satisfied with it which then I will call it a quotation. 
Further, I think time + materials for jobs of this nature is a good way to go. That way the owners can, or should be able legally, stop the electrician anytime and the electrician can also stop and leave anytime. This way one can stop the NIGHTMARE (in some rewiring jobs without loosing big time money and also stop the stress which is one important health factor. Even this freedom to leave anytime is a stress relief while doing the job. One does not become a HOSTAGE to the job.)

Any more comments are welcome!

All have a good day.
Manuel


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I would put together a finish estimate (what it will take to put everything back to normal) and request frequent draws, about every $2K. This will keep everybody on the same page and give you running progress report. If money starts to get tight towards the end, it will be easier to make decisions and you'll have that reserve to make the repairs.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Sparky Joe said:


> Couldn't you coordinate with this general contractor on all the access points you need so that he could do the removal for you properly and then also the repairs?


The electrical contractor I use did a similar job, and I went along and bid the actual demo work and restoration. This was my selling point: Wouldn't it be great to insulate these walls and make your house comfortable? We ended up gutting it room by room, drywalling, and replacing the the woodwork...good money job, the electrician was much happier since all the walls had fireblocks, and he didn't have to drill any of them. We also did the windows while there and the next year, did a siding job.


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