# Building 10 foot Header, have a question



## Viperjts10

I am in the process of removing a load bearing wall and so we were going to need to build this header for the support when this wall is removed. 

The wall divided two rooms and we were going to make the two rooms into one large room. Now for the header, I am using two 2 x 10 x 10 and I made a sandwhich with those byy placing plywood inbetween the 2 x 10's. 

When I go to put the header in place, can I just nail the header directly to joices in the ceiling, or is it necessary to create several cripple studs above the header which will then go into the joices in the ceiling. 

Hopefully what I said makes sense, if not, I'll try and explain better, but all help is appreciated, thanks.

*** Second question. If I need to build a 10 foot header, would the 2 x 10 be okay to use?


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## LennyV-NHSNOLA

If I'm reading your post correctly, the header will certainly have to be supported by king/cripple studs on the ends of the header span. Depending on the load, two 2x10's sandwiched with 1/2" OSB or quality plywood should be sufficient but you should check with your local building code to verify this. Are there going to be studs left on each end to fasten cripple studs to? I would probably use double cripple studs on each end.

EDIT - I forgot to mention that the 2x10's and OSB/plywood should all be fastened together using glue and nails, screws or bolts.


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## jmic

Viper,
You haven't said wether or not you have a second floor load that you're supporting or just attic space. IMO if you're dealing with a second floor I'd use a couple 12"LVL's, but as stated above it's always good to double check with building official (if you don't have a permit I'd check with your supplier and let them run calcs.) Good luck!


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## tcleve4911

*10' header*

Vipor - You said the header will be supporting a load bearing wall. With a 10' span, I would also suggest a doubled 12" LVL with doubled jack studs. (note: cripples are the short pieces of wall framing that typically go under a window ) 
You could get away with a 10" LVL since rule of thumb is 1" of thickness = 1'-0" of span. The nice thing about LVL's is that they are 1-3/4" thick. Two of them equal your 3-1/2" stud thickness. I've always been of the understanding that plywood between the framing members is just a spacer and doesn't do much more than add weight if you don't glue it & nail it.
Check with your local building codes if you are not 100% sure.:thumbsup:


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## Viperjts10

Ok, thanks for the responses so far. Yes there is a second floor above the wall which I'm taking down. It's not normal though because the upstairs was an addition to this house around 10 or 15 years ago. 

Also, I was going to place the two by fours on the side. I was going to place ONE 8 foot 2 x 4 on each side of the header (ceiling is 8 feet tall). Underneath the sides, I would have two more studs under the header on each side. So in total, there would be 3 studs on each side of the header. (Tripple cripple studs on each end)

Picture below










Another cousin of mine was going to be helping me with this project and he had been doing hardwood flooring for quite some time. He never did one of these, but he says he knows what he is doing. 

He said we could just take the header and nail it directly to the joices above it. Sorry if someone mentioned this, but was the cripples ABoVE the header necessary? We weren't going to use them because it would make the header lower then we want it.


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## reveivl

It doesn't make any difference structurally if the new beam is attached directly to the joists above or carries a pony wall that is attached to the joists above.

You've also created point loads under the ends of the beams, what is supporting these loads?


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## Glasshousebltr

Viper, the 2 studs under the header on each side a called jacks, or some people call them trimmers. The full studs next to them are King posts.

What Rev is asking is if you have support in the floor under the King/Jack on each side. You've moved the the load of the supported area there and the king/jack could damage the floor in the future without it.

Bob


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## Cole

I would go with 2 sets of jacks under the header on both sides.


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## LennyV-NHSNOLA

From http://www.onthehouse.com/wp/20020923 :

Cripple stud (or cripple, or jack stud or trimmer): It is not a full height stud, but is a load-supporting stud that travels from the underside of the header to the sole plate and is sandwiched together with the king stud.

While I normally call them jack studs, since he used the term cripple stud, I answered in the same since they are used synonymously by some in the building trade. Many others do use the term cripple stud as the "load bearing stud" above the header.


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## Viperjts10

Glasshousebltr said:


> Viper, the 2 studs under the header on each side a called jacks, or some people call them trimmers. The full studs next to them are King posts.
> 
> What Rev is asking is if you have support in the floor under the King/Jack on each side. You've moved the the load of the supported area there and the king/jack could damage the floor in the future without it.
> 
> Bob


You all have been a tremendous help so far, I really appreciate it. As for what you're saying glasshouse, I do not have a basement and so this wall I am removing is on the ground level. I am understanding what I need to do a lot better now then I did before. 

Now I read something saying that 1/2 inch plywood would be good to use sandwhiched between my Two 2 x 10 pieces. My cousin however had purchased some plywood from lowes and after I measured it, it was just over 1/4 inch thick and so I am debating whether or not we should dump this plywood we got and go get some new plywood which is 1/2 thick. As the sandwhich should be the same thickness as a 2 x 4 on its side, I was thinking that I really needed that 1/2 inch plywood. Would anyone recommend this, or will I be just fine with the 1/4 inch?


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## Fuzzycram

*A Framer's Perspective*

I Framed for about 5 years and ran a crew for 3 of them. So here goes:
If code requires a 1/2" plywood flitchplate sandwiched between your header, you should do it. I've gotten away with not doing it a thousand times, but either way, it can be structural if its code. I know it doesn't make much sense on WHY it is, but I don't write the codes. There are plenty of places that don't require it, but its still good practice so the header is the full 3 1/2 inches thick so you won't have any problem with drywall. The term cripple and jack are used for both legs under windows or bearing studs under headers. It just depends on where you are in the country. Are the joists in the ceiling bearing the second floor or are they JUST ceiling joists? If they bear any weight at all, you need to hang them or make sure they bear on top of your header.


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## jmic

Viperjts10 said:


> You all have been a tremendous help so far, I really appreciate it. As for what you're saying glasshouse, I do not have a basement and so this wall I am removing is on the ground level. I am understanding what I need to do a lot better now then I did before.
> 
> Now I read something saying that 1/2 inch plywood would be good to use sandwhiched between my Two 2 x 10 pieces. My cousin however had purchased some plywood from lowes and after I measured it, it was just over 1/4 inch thick and so I am debating whether or not we should dump this plywood we got and go get some new plywood which is 1/2 thick. As the sandwhich should be the same thickness as a 2 x 4 on its side, I was thinking that I really needed that 1/2 inch plywood. Would anyone recommend this, or will I be just fine with the 1/4 inch?


I still feel that 10' is pushing the span for this type of header. I'd think about using a couple of lvl's. Your project though.


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## thom

It seems you all are dancing around the real question. What is the minimum required headder and what is the minimum required bearing (jacks) for that headder. This can only be determined after knowing all the loads imposed on the headder and the locations of the loads. You can guess, but without knowing those loads it is in fact just a guess. If the spans of the joists are longer than expected, the headder will be undersized. If there are point loads not described the headder will be undersized. 

Engineering headdeer sizes is standard practice for designing all buildings. Sometimes, when I do the calcs, I'm surprised at the minimum size required. Just guessing would have led me to inadequately size the headder, and I do this a lot. I design and build 2 to 4 houses per year. In my jurisdiction we are required to provide engineering for headders as described here, and for good reason.


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## The Remodeler

LennyV-NHSNOLA said:


> If I'm reading your post correctly, the header will certainly have to be supported by king/cripple studs on the ends of the header span. Depending on the load, two 2x10's sandwiched with 1/2" OSB or quality plywood should be sufficient but you should check with your local building code to verify this. Are there going to be studs left on each end to fasten cripple studs to? I would probably use double cripple studs on each end.
> 
> EDIT - I forgot to mention that the 2x10's and OSB/plywood should all be fastened together using glue and nails, screws or bolts.


If you are doing this job with a building permit, the inspectors will want to see a span calculation work sheet for the header span, in most States that is. I personally would use LVL's for that type of span and load. Your building material supplier can usually get you those calculations and you then want to keep it handy with your pemit paper work for the inspector to look at when you get your framing inspection.


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