# Your Presence



## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

This was brought up in a thread just a little while ago and it got me 
wondering. I realize that the business we are all in, there is plenty of room 
for personal expression in what we wear, length of hair, smoking, etc. 

Our profession is branded many times, it seems more often than not, as 
alcoholics, drug addicts, deadbeats, etc. and I take that personally as I'm 
sure many of you do to.

Now the point I'm getting to is that all of us here know beyond a doubt that 
"dress for success" and "you only get one chance to make a first impression" 
is absolutely 100% true. 

When I am approaching a potential client for the first time, I am wearing a 
decent dress shirt and jeans with no stains on them. My work boots come 
along as long as they are clean and not at the end of the lifespan. I think if 
you overdress, you can come across as someone who has never pounded a 
nail. Firm handshake. Stronger than the other guy. And smile!

I personally think I dress for work better than my competition around me by 
a long shot. I keep my hair short and neat, I shave at least every other day 
if not every day, I don't wear ratty clothing, I do not smoke or let others 
smoke, I don't drink on site, I watch my language, I answer my phone when 
it rings, I do not take my shirt off in the summer, and I show up to work 
consistently at the same time every day.

I just think that it reflects professionalism to who I work for.

Now before you guys with long hair go off on me, I have nothing against 
guys with long hair, or people who smoke, or swearing. Some days I wish I 
could change places. If you have no problem with it, then it's obviously 
good. Whatever you want to do. I'm just saying for me and my business, this 
is where I draw the line.

If you show up and ask me for a job and you have long hair, then I would 
take a look and see if it's kept neatly back out of danger. And if it's too long, 
halfway down your back, then we might have a problem. Not saying we will, 
but we may.

This has nothing to do with your abilities. Zero. I look for the qualifications 
first, then the presence.

Some rules I have for my own business and hourly employees. My rules are a 
little more relaxed for hiring someone as a sub but rules are still there.

I used to have a rule "don't swear more than the owner/builder swears. Now 
I say "keep it to yourself". If you pound your thumb and go off, fine, but 
don't keep going off for 10, 15, 20 minutes. 

One thing I hate with a passion and I will get nailed for this I'm sure. No 
smoking period. End of story. What we do for a living you need oxygen and to 
be fit. If you can't run a mile because you smoke, then you are going to 
have a hard time keeping up with what you may consider to be an old guy 
and that is shameful.

I hate cell phones. Use it for emergency calls and business calls only. If your 
girlfriend calls you to chat, I will warn a few times, I will strenuously warn a 
last time, then it gets the hammer or the Nolan Ryan, whichever I feel like.

If you're 300 lbs. and 200 is beer belly....well....I'm sorry, unless you want 
$10/hr or you can show me you can crawl around in the trusses and not 
worry about it breaking.

I have a zero tolerance on a few things. No racism and no stealing.

Everyone packs lumber. And you wear your nail bags while packing.

No radios when framing. 

Do you think this is too much? I don't. I speak my philosophy to the worker.
We all have our rules. Some don't care about certain things I have said, 
that's fine. Your rules are a different perspective is all. I don't condemn and 
say your values are inferior, they are just different from mine.

And the last things before I go. Watch what you say around me. If you are 
negative, saying "I can't" or "there's no way to do this" I will go Tony Robbins 
on you. If you say you can't all the time, then you can't. I look for guys who 
say "I can"

Keep a positive outlook on life, enjoy your family, take a whitewater rafting 
trip, go to a ballgame, take the woman out to a movie, go skydiving, 
exercise, and live life! Carpenters build the world. Enjoy what you do.


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## willworkforbeer (Mar 7, 2009)

Rules, rules, rules, this is what drove me to work for myself. I cant stand micromanagement and dont do it to others.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Whoosh! Hallelujah, Reverend!

Not much to argue with there, though I smoke and the best structure man I know has a pony-tail. But...



framerman said:


> Everyone packs lumber. And you wear your nail bags while packing.


You want cute, or do you want yer lumber moved? The few seconds it takes to remove and/or don those bags will be more than made up for by the extra mobility while humping loads. :no:


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

willworkforbeer said:


> Rules, rules, rules, this is what drove me to work for myself. I cant stand micromanagement and dont do it to others.


Everyone has rules. Everyone. I do not disagree with you, some of my rules are tough to find meaning. I do not agree on the micromanagement statement. I feel micromanagement is telling someone how they need to hold a hammer, how much water they can drink, whether they should keep their chalk line in the left pocket or right pocket, whether their hammer should be in the back or in the front, what brand of tool they need for a saw. With your approach, I would place bets that you either work alone or have one or two guys at most. If that works for you, then that is wonderful, I don't knock it.



Tinstaafl said:


> You want cute, or do you want yer lumber moved? The few seconds it takes to remove and/or don those bags will be more than made up for by the extra mobility while humping loads. :no:


I have my reasons. Like lack of a handy tape measure for one.

I did this thread more to find out what others do, not just pick on what I expect from people who work for me, which is fine to criticize. I have no problems with that.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

I agree with you Framerman 101%. I feel the same way about things you mentioned. How you carry yourself tells allot about yourself and your personality, and also how your job will look and what kind of a job you will do. Just think about it going to a restaurant, you got flies all over, place is filthy,a mess behind the counter, the guy who is making eggs or runs the join looks like a slob... What kind of a service will you get. Same goes with any business, including construction. If someone is a slob,truck looks filthy, they look filthy... the job will look and be done the same way they look most of the time. HO don't want to come home and look at anybody's ass crack, or someone rig of smoke or liquor as they speak to them, its disrespectful. They don't want to come home and find cigarette butts and beer cans all over the lawn or theirs house or basement, etc. I put my name on my truck and on every job I do, and I will never let anyone disrespect that.

Good post Framerman:thumbsup::thumbup:


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

NO RADIOS.....................

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds. Is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils. The motions of his spirit are dull as night, and his affections dark as erubus. Let no such man be trusted. Mark the music." 

William Shakespeare
Merchants of Venice

Back in the day Bro, I would have never worked for you. A happy crew is a productive crew. I ride a Harley, do you have a rule on how loud an employees bike can be ? Music takes the edge off, puts MOST people in a good mood. Nothing personal but you sound a little more anal than the rest of us.


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## willworkforbeer (Mar 7, 2009)

greg24k said:


> I agree with you Framerman 101%.


101%? Why did you **** him out of the other 9%? :laughing:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

willworkforbeer said:


> 101%? Why did you **** him out of the other 9%? :laughing:


I allow radios on the job :laughing:


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

Most of my work comes from referals, word of mouth, ect. Yes I do believe that first impressions are lasting. But how I look when I'm doing the job, how i don't smoke when I'm working, don't listen to music, don't do this , don't do that is bull****. My work speaks for itself. And I don't need no stereotyped image. Last but not least , my company does not have gas station shirts with cute oval names on them either.

Judge no man but yourself bro.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

bottom line is, your company,your rules.

I wouldn't work for you unless I needed to. But I have to respect the fact that your rules are your rules.


On my site, there is a radio. (if there isn't I start singing, and nobody wants that) The jobsite feels empty without music.

I don't mind smoking. (I don't)
no alcohol
no drugs
I always take off the tool belt when moving lumber.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

strathd said:


> But how I look when I'm doing the job, how i don't smoke when I'm working, don't listen to music, don't do this , don't do that is bull****. My work speaks for itself. And I don't need no stereotyped image.


Relax dude. No need to get upset. If you think it is BS, then to you.....it is. For me....it's not. I happen to feel that everything counts......EVERYTHING.



strathd said:


> I did'nt know the bible belt went all the way to Maine.


That's uncalled for. No need for this. 



strathd said:


> Last but not least , my company does not have gas station shirts with cute oval names on them either. Can you say Metrosexual ? :laughing:


Actually, that is in my future plans. I know of one framing crew here that does and I think it conveys professionalism.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

I have to agree with most of those things , Usaually the first tool I get out of the truck is the Radio. ,But we only listen to what I want to listen to and not loud , depends where, what were are working on. If we are working in a established neighborhood I don't want to annoy the neighbors, and further propogate that reputation that construction workers seem to have with some "educated" people.
I used to be more of a dictator about keeping the nail apron on at all times. If you took them off , they might get nailed to the floor, or the wall, or thrown off the deck. But there are situations where I allow guys to go without them on, just depends.


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

framerman said:


> Relax dude. No need to get upset. If you think it is BS, then to you.....it is. For me....it's not. I happen to feel that everything counts......EVERYTHING.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Yes that was uncalled for. I concur. I deleted that part of the post prior to reading this.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

I dont understand the radio issue some guys have.. A pleasant station (i.e. homeowner friendly, no rap, no death metal) keeps the guys moving. If communication is critical on your site, keep the volume turned down low. 

I've seen the problems with radios on commercial sites firsthand however. I'm also in the Steamfitter Union in NYC, and I've seen every trade have a radio blasting on a single floor. They all keep them loud to drown out the other radios too. Gives me a headache. :blink:


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

strathd said:


> Yes that was uncalled for. I concur. I deleted that part of the post prior to reading this.


It's no problem. Everything is cool. 

This is the thing with radios for me. I am usually leading the way. I am in the middle of the bullets flying. So, if I'm up on the roof, and I need some material and the radio is blasting away and the guy I'm trying to get attention doesn't hear me because the radio is too loud, that's a problem.

Ever have the GC come by with the HO and the first thing he does is turn the radio down so they can hear each other talk? Put yourself in the shoes of the HO and try to figure out what he/she is thinking? Maybe they don't care. But then again.....maybe they do.

When we are subcontracted from a GC, we are the representatives for the GC and like I said before, I feel that everything counts. It's a tough market out there and I am putting all of my bullets in the barrel. Don't think for a moment that with no music going that we don't have fun.

I can't imagine if I was to offer any one here $50/hr that you would say no just because I don't allow radios to be playing. That's the straw that breaks the camels back?


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Splinter said:


> .....keeps the guys moving.


I.....keep the guys moving. Someone who is managing, someone who is leading keeps the guys moving. Not a radio. Is it pleasant? Absolutely. So is a good conversation.



Splinter said:


> If communication is critical on your site....


I don't know many businesses that communication is not critical.


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## willworkforbeer (Mar 7, 2009)

framerman said:


> I.....keep the guys moving. Someone who is managing, someone who is leading keeps the guys moving. Not a radio. Is it pleasant? Absolutely. So is a good conversation.


I dont know framerman, I'd probably like you sitting on a barstool on fridays but I suspect I wont work for you longer than one day...


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## The Invetor (Feb 27, 2009)

Framerman,

Just wondering..what type of jobs are you working on?
I agree that a good first impression is valuable.However,there definitely is an acceptable standard.

I have worked in many different situations.Some require no radio or a more "professional" appearance due to the project.These are usually acceptable requests to make,and are understood by the employee(the guy that's making you $$).

Of course,with the economy being what it is today,you could probably get away with asking guys to wear your silly name tagged shirts. 

Listening to a radio on a job,wearing shorts,having a smoke,these are some of the reasons guys do this type of work. A sense of freedom,good time working,and do a great job for the bossman to boot. 

Nobody should argue that you are wrong or right,it's your company.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

willworkforbeer said:


> I dont know framerman, I'd probably like you sitting on a barstool on fridays but I suspect I wont work for you longer than one day...


Haha, c'mon, I've got stories to last a few months!

I'll take any offer for beer after work.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

The Invetor said:


> Framerman,
> 
> Just wondering..what type of jobs are you working on?
> I agree that a good first impression is valuable.However,there definitely is an acceptable standard.
> ...


I allow wearing shorts. My shirts are going to be pink in color and have the Duke on the front. We'll be the talk of the town!


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

framerman said:


> It's no problem. Everything is cool.
> 
> This is the thing with radios for me. I am usually leading the way. I am in the middle of the bullets flying. So, if I'm up on the roof, and I need some material and the radio is blasting away and the guy I'm trying to get attention doesn't hear me because the radio is too loud, that's a problem.
> 
> ...


 My radio is at different volume levels all day. Rolling trusses with a crane its off. I usually see when the ho and gc pull up, someone turns it down.When you you have been doing this as long as I have you can watch every move 4 guys make and still work yourself. It's not like we have it cranked all the time. But again a happy crew is a productive crew.

$ 50 an hour ? ok , but I'll only use one earphone of my ipod.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

I comes to the job ready to roll with whatever the boss man says I go with it.

I always show up dressed to impress:thumbsup:

When can I start boss?


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

rbsremodeling said:


> I comes to the job ready to roll with whatever the boss man says I go with it.
> 
> I always show up dressed to impress:thumbsup:
> 
> ...


There you go. RBS don't like music.


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## Graham J (Nov 7, 2008)

*I could do that!*

Great post, Framerman.

I agree with your thoughts, except the one of keeping the bags on for packing. If I have to pack different lengths, often I will just pull my tape and take it along in my carhartts. Just a preference.

On the plus side, I can definitely see where that kind of a standard makes a major statement about the work you do. I have seen crews that played music loud (could be easily heard 3 lots down), dressed "not for success", and their work showed it. I know, since I had to backframe behind them for 5-6 jobs. I had no shortage of work for a while there.

Again, thanks for the post. People are usually looking for a high standard to aspire to. I'd love to be part of your crew.

Same to Hugh as well.

:notworthy:notworthy
Graham


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## m1911 (Feb 24, 2009)

I think radios on the job site is very unprofessional. You are there to work, not to clown around and dance. I want to here myself think, and if a coworker calls out a cutlist, I want to hear it, not the radio. Cursing on the job is just asinine and childlike, I don't care who you are.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

framer said:


> I don't know many businesses that communication is not critical.


C'mon Framer, I think you know what I mean... If you have a crane operator on site who needs to hear the groundman, turn off the radio... If it's just 4 guys cutting studs and pounding nails all day long, I don't think a radio _*at a moderate volume* _will throw off company communications. 

I'm not knocking your rules, it's your site, your company, you obviously can do what you want... My first carpenter boss was pretty strict. I still enjoyed working with him. 

I prefer the Sirius Blues station on the satellite radio while working, it helps me think clearly. 



m1911 said:


> I think radios on the job site is very unprofessional. You are there to work, *not to clown around and dance*.


Now that's just ridiculous. Sorry, but if your guys cant help but shake it when a radio is on, it's time to get some new guys. :w00t:


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## The Invetor (Feb 27, 2009)

I think it boils down to a common sense.

Dress for success? That doesn't always mean success,just look at Wall St.


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## BuiltByMAC (Mar 11, 2006)

Radio wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me - if you paid well, if you built well, if you ran a successful, hard-working, profitable crew and I learned from them and you, I'd work for you (if I was looking to be an employee again...and lived on the East coast!)

I have showed up to estimates (first meetings) at the end of the day, covered in sawdust and wearing stained clothes. I try not to but sometimes, when I'm really busy, that's the only time that I have to meet w/ them. On one hand, it's not a professional "clean" look. On the other, the guy that's selling to them is the guy that's gonna build for them. They can clearly see that! We can talk specifics and they don't have to worry about communication errors between the salesman and the builder.
And usually, they already have an idea of the kind of work I'm capable of, either through looking at my website or being a referral from another client. 

I see where the rules come from. I can also see why guys here don't like 'em. Most of us aren't employees! For a reason! We don't do so well listening to someone else telling us what to do!!!

Mac


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

I didn't read much of this post to be honest, but I am more then willing to bet that you are going to find mostly guys on here that take pride in their work and how they are perceived....therefore most people will mostly be in agreeance with the OP. It is the nature of the beast, if you care about what you do enough to go online and talk to others about in an attempt to gain or share knowledge then most of the hacks, who don't care, or think they know it all just simply won't be here....but I always try and wear cloths that are as clean as possiable, too many stains or what not and they are thrown out. My hair is kept cut and gelled and I always try to be polite when I am around others and it calls for it...


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

I think you push it just a little too far. Policies are good, but when a boss or foreman pushes every little pet peeve that he has on his guys, it just gets to be an annoyance. I think it slows guys down, then everyone starts to think, gee he's an idiot.

Packing lumber with your bags on: That just sounds like a pet peeve of your own that you shouldn't need to push. If someone thinks they can work more efficient with their bags off, then let them do it. If it's a small wall, then yes keep your bags on, but for the big walls, don't. I worked on a wall framing crew for two years. At the start of a house, I liked to nail down my bottom plate, take my bags off and stack every wall I could with studs, then put my bags on and get to work. If someone told me to keep my bags on, I would get really irritated. I would think the boss would just be intruding, slowing us down, making the work harder for everyone. Which is pretty much what you're doing.

No radios when framing: You have to have fun to some extent, and keep your crew motivated. I think you're butting in too much.

Everyone packs lumber: This one I like, even the lead framer should be packing lumber, it gives the rest of the crew more of a chance to learn. The times I've lead a wall framing crew. I would pack my own studs while letting some of the rookies practice on their walls with the nail gun. Then I would get yelled at by my boss, "Have the new guys pack all the lumber!" Because I could run the nail gun three times faster than they could. I would ask, "Don't you want them to learn how to frame?" they would say "Yes, but not at the expense of slowing us down". So I had to keep that attitude of making the new guys do all the grunt work. And over time I had a crew of guys that didn't know anything, I was the only one that knew how to frame. So of course production slowed and they would just blame me for it. 

No smoking period: I don't know if I like this one or not, I hate to intrude on peoples personal lives. But I do think the people that smoke are generally less productive. I see them having to take breaks in between regular breaks to have a cigarette. They also seem like the lazy people that expects everyone else to do their work for them. The second hand smoke is another thing I don't like. 

I don't understand the new law in Washington, no smoking within 25 feet of a public building. If there is a bar where people smoke, and I don't like being around smoke, then I won't go to that bar. Why force businesses to not allow smoking and as a result go out of business? When no one is forcing anyone to be around that second hand smoke anyway? But if you're at work, it's perfectly legal to smoke? I have to be at work, If someone is around me smoking, I have to be there. I was at a job where it started raining, so all the siders decided to go in the garage and have a cigarette. I was in the garage doing some work, and I told them "Uhh I don't smoke, can you guys go somewhere's else?" But they were Korean and didn't speak english.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

My rules an dconduct are similar. Swearing kept to a minimum if we are working on new house and not at all if we are in someones home. Radio on new home is ok but it cant be too loud. Radio is a no go if we are working on clients home. Smoking is not allowed. On breaks you can go out and smoke but not near me. Weight isnt a big issue for me as long as you can do your job properly. Most of us framers generally are thin scrappy guys anyways. I firmly agree that we all carry lumber. Sometimes I will have low man do the bulk of it but I hate it when a guy makes another stop what he's doing to tote him a couple studs. Pouches on unless you are gonna tote a bunch of stuff. I hate it when somebody takes em off and leaves em off for a long period. Definitely no drinking on site and nobody showing up smelling like it either. I have to admit I'm not a snazzy dresser. Sometimes my jeans are torn or have glue on em but hey, I'm a workin man. If I know I have to look at a new job or meet a new GC I will shower, wear best "work" clothes and show up clean.


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

The more I think about this the more it seems ridiculous. When I go to the dentist there is music playing. Service garage, music playing. Shopping, music playing. Are you not gonna let someone work on your truck cause there is music playing ? Not go there ? Not go there cause they are not professional ?

Music is a big part of my life, I enjoy it immensely. I bring lot's of cd's to work everyday. Music can be a motivator, a mood setter. If the truth was known you guy's that don't allow music probably just plain don't like music.

Why ruin it for everyone else ? You look professional cause you don't listen to music ? Are you guy's brain surgeons ? What a joke (we got the job cause we don't listen to music).

Lighten up man, things are bad enough allready. Again , a happy crew is a productive crew. And yes MOST people like music even gc's and homeowners.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Its not about liking music. I like a lot of music. Some of the content may be inappropriate for homeowners or their children. Its a courtesy thing when your at someones house. I dont like it blaring on the job though either. I hate having to scream down measurements multiple times. Not a big fan of the earphones either. Guys will turn them up and not hear anything going on around them.


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

Warren said:


> Its not about liking music. I like a lot of music. Some of the content may be inappropriate for homeowners or their children. Its a courtesy thing when your at someones house. I dont like it blaring on the job though either. I hate having to scream down measurements multiple times. Not a big fan of the earphones either. Guys will turn them up and not hear anything going on around them.


 No inappropriate music on my jobs. No earphones either. No screaming either. I am all about respect and courtesy. Just music at appropriate volumes and times. No music when crane is there ect.


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## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

*framerman*

I can understand where you are coming from.

With that said, I am a smoker NOT a slacker I can kick it with old or young, climb, run, swim I don't care, I will be right with you - When I work in a house, store, mall, or hunt I do not smoke, but when I'm framing that is a deferent story.

You would never pick up a cig-but Because I keep them in my pouch.


I went scuba diving last year in ST Martin my dive master picked on me cause I smoked, he only had 3 to 4 min more air then me.

I'm not picking on ya - Respect - your CO your rules ( just lighten up a little) lol 

Nice post though


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

strathd said:


> The more I think about this the more it seems ridiculous. When I go to the dentist there is music playing. Service garage, music playing. Shopping, music playing. Are you not gonna let someone work on your truck cause there is music playing ? Not go there ? Not go there cause they are not professional ?
> 
> Music is a big part of my life, I enjoy it immensely. I bring lot's of cd's to work everyday. Music can be a motivator, a mood setter. If the truth was known you guy's that don't allow music probably just plain don't like music.
> 
> ...


I'm not certain where you think I am ruining it for everyone else with not allowing music. No one has complained. I state my reason why and everyone is fine and understands. 

When someone says to me "it sets the mood better, takes the edge off, gets me going....." well, It's too bad that someone else needs music to motivate themselves. Music is not the only motivational factor in life. Far from it.

You give examples of the auto repair place, the supermarket, the dentist. I'm sure you know most of those places have subliminal stuff going on in the background to make you buy things. Not all, but I guarantee you the supermarket does, the mall does.

What about pro football players? What motivates them at halftime? The coach. Stockbroker? He's not listening to music on the floor (though he may want to think about it :laughing

Let me ask you something. Do you think music is a good distraction at work for you personally? Think about this for a second. If you answer yes, why would you need distraction? Maybe you need distraction for feeling mundane day in and day out and need some change. Maybe it's a career change. I love what I do. Music does not motivate me to get out of the truck and get to work. My desire for my career gets me out of the truck.

And don't assume I don't like music. I have a significant collection. There's a time to listen and there's a time to get busy.

It's too bad this thread has gone this way. It's not about music. It's not about being strict. It's not about your abilities. It's not about nail bags.

I just think that every little bit counts and I wanted to hear what others had for input. Whether you think so or not, you have your own rules on your own jobs. You may not consciously pay attention to them, but they are definitely there. They may not be as standardized as what I have it.

I think you'd be surprised how mellow I really am. My rules are stated up front so there's no wondering and guessing. I can't imagine someone going through life thinking that rules are akin to being strict and harsh. You go to any serious company and they have rules just like I have.

Do you know how serious the rules are for dress for pro football players? They'll drag them off the field if their shirt is untucked. If you want to play pro ball, come play with the best. if you want to play a-ball, then that's your choice. Besides, I'll mix it up and bring the radio in some days. Some days I'll bring donuts.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

It comes down to respect. If you run the job and I work for you then I would follow your rules. If I found that I couldn't accept them I would move on. If guys dont respect my rules regarding smoking,music,laboring,etc then they end going elsewhere. I tell you the truth, I have never lost any decent guy due to my "rules".


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Snobnd said:


> With that said, I am a smoker NOT a slacker I can kick it with old or young, climb, run, swim I don't care, I will be right with you


That is fine. You being a smoker, I don't care. If you can keep up and show me, I'm all for it. Your smoke break would be in your vehicle though. That I don't mind, though I think it would be a little anti social just so you could light one up. Maybe you'd miss a really good joke. Or a story. 

I don't think smokers are slackers at all. Most of them may be, but I have seen one of the biggest chain smokers around and I swear he's going to kick it any day and he keeps on going like the damn energizer bunny. Some people it just doesn't seem to affect much. I use to smoke a pack a day. the smell doesn't bother me, second hand smoke doesn't bother me. Hell, my hero over there for my avatar was a serious chain smoker. He's one bad ass though. You don't mess with the Duke!


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

We all have our views, opinions and so forth. Guess we all know that we're a competitive bunch. Like framing a house next door to another crew. It's just about a sport. :laughing: Thats why were framers. It's all good !


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## shadyike (Mar 20, 2009)

framerman said:


> This was brought up in a thread just a little while ago and it got me
> wondering. I realize that the business we are all in, there is plenty of room
> for personal expression in what we wear, length of hair, smoking, etc.
> 
> ...


 
This thread made me chuckle,some of the *BEST* carpenters I know smoke,drink,have foul mouth and could not run 50' without collapsing but they can bang nails with the best of them.

I agree 100% about the radio only because there is always mindless arguments about what to listen to (I hate rap)


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