# Do you get nervous about the price before submitting a proposal?



## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

mahlere said:


> that's the "we lose money on every job, but make it up on volume" business plan.
> 
> If the job should have been $21,500 and there is 10% profit in the job. That's $2,150 profit. Deduct $900 for tile that you forgot, and now you are at $1,250 or 5.8% profit. Another error or two and you just bought yourself some work.
> 
> So, not to offend anyone, but if the job should have been $21,500 to cover costs and make the profit needed to keep the business in business, anything less and you are losing money.


yep

-- dang, i just wrote that below mahlrere,


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

day late and a dollar short, dirt.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

mahlere said:


> that's the "we lose money on every job, but make it up on volume" business plan.


I love that business plan! 

I tried to copyright it and start selling it on late night tv doing infomercials but the patent office told me that I was too late, that the theory has been in use by poor business people for well over 400 years. In fact they went on to say not until this century did a company finally crack the nut and make it work, that was Amazon.com. :laughing: 

I then asked them if I could copyright the business plan of selling dollar bills for .99 cents, they said forget it that all the fix and flippers had that market cornered.:sad:


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

dirt diggler said:


> ok, so $1,500 is gonna break a $20 deal?? :no:
> 
> 
> necessarily lost money?? John, as I said above --- they had to SPEND money in order to even LOSE it.
> ...


Tom R was able to understand what I was saying, but apparently you haven't understood. Part of your misunderstanding is because you are extrapolating the point I made, about one single job, into a 3or 4 times situation
As an aside, why would you markup materials that you were paying for yourself?
Anyway, back to the main point. First of all, _of course an extra $1500 on a $20K job could be a deal breaker_. It may well be that $20K was the absolute max that that customer was going to pay, maybe he'd had bids of $17,500 and $18,000 from other contractors but Melissa had been able to convince him of the extra value they would bring to the job, but not another $1,500 on top
So, my original point stands, maybe that $1500 was never there to lose in the first place.

Markup profit?? I thought most people knew by now that you have to make your money on the LABOR you supply, not the materials. 

John


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

One of the reasons we mark up is because we can get it at half the price (on travertine), and the customer cannot. We have to drive quite a ways to get it and haggle a bit too, we search around finding the best deal, quality, etc., and if one breaks, we replace it, and so on. 

This topic has been discussed before, and I think the best answer to sum up why to mark up is "because we can" :laughing: And usually if someone doesn't mark up, they still basically do, but call it something different.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> Melissa don't the following personally --- I'm just trying to help you (cuz you asked for help, and I like helping ... oh and I'm waiting on dinner:laughing: )


No it's the opposite, I appreciate it. Actually, could you do me a favor and reach through the computer and slap me a few times too?! :laughing: 



> When you posted like a month or so ago --- something I said in my response was "YOU NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WENT WRONG AND FIX IT" --- or something to that effect.
> 
> 1) You have not done that yet --- or at all, judging by this thread. Why not???


We are fixing it. I'm just not 100% confident in our pricing right now, because of the past mistakes. And one of the main reasons why things got so screwed up was we were juggling way too many jobs at once- about 7  



> 2) $900 down the drain is $900 down the DRAIN. Lost!! And that's not just lost profit --- in fact, you had to SPEND money just to be able to lose it. See what I mean?? That is worse than losing profit. Heck, at 20% -- I mean, that is gas money for TWO WEEKS.


Agreed. It was completely stupid. 



> 3) "Accidentally leaving something out" ... hey, we're human. Once in awhile is ok -- it's a mistake. But you say you ALWAYS do this.


Yeah, we do it a lot. 



> 4) How many bath/kitchen remodels have you all done?? Having done ONE is enough to produce accurate bids. After 3 or 4, you should be able to come up with infield estimates in your head. I'm guessing you've done more than one --- so why can you not produce accurate bids??


About 10 kitchens and 10 baths in our almost 4 yrs in business. The only excuse I have is that we rush through estimates, or our little one's are climbing on top of us and interrupting us, or we're having to do the estimates at midnight. Also, we've rarely done small jobs, just immediately started getting referred for the bigger one's requiring a lot more detail. (The $97k for this job doesn't even incl any material- the designers providing all that) My husbands not the kind of guy to ever say he can't handle something, and I'm just trying to get up to speed. This isn't the career that I've wanted to do all my life like him, and I'm supposed to be his right-hand man in the 15 hrs per week that I'm in the office. :blink: 



> 5) A foolproof system?? and you "hope" to start making some money??
> C'mon ---
> 
> Take the cost of the job. Material and labor.
> ...


I know, sounds pretty pathetic. 



> 6) And now you're thinking of a side business??? You need to get the "front" one straight first.


Well, the thing with the side business, is I think that specializing in one trade that is repetative and easy to train on is a fast way to make money. We do about 2+ replacement window jobs per month right now, and it is in fact easy money, and we don't have to be there and can focus on our other jobs.



> 7) "We don't lowball" --- you are and do not even realize it


Well, we don't mean to low ball. :laughing: On this job that I've been referring to with the forgotten tile, we marked up everything 30%. 



> Really sorry if it sounds harsh. But I think you need someone to come down on you and point some things out. And what better than a total stranger??  Hate me all you want, but at least think about things and be honest with yourself
> 
> BTW --- I've made these mistakes too!!! I am by no means perfect. In fact, I haven't even gotten through kindergarten in the business world. Heck, sometimes I wonder if I'm even cut out for it.
> 
> ...


I completely agree (absolutely not lazziness though). We make the same mistakes over and over again, and it gets old. I think a lot of it has to do with my husband taking on too much work, getting overwhelmed (though he'd never admit to that), also he used to spoil the customers rotten, always trying to please them, going above and beyond :no: And I've accused him before of sort of unconsiously wanting to give the HO's a good deal and be the "good guy". I think it's something he can't shake for some reason. I keep reminding him that we're not going to stay in business if this is the case, and he swears he doesn't give any deals. I'm not convinced. Maybe we need to hire a professional estimator, so he doesn't really have anything to do with the price.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> I love that business plan!
> 
> I tried to copyright it and start selling it on late night tv doing infomercials but the patent office told me that I was too late, that the theory has been in use by poor business people for well over 400 years. In fact they went on to say not until this century did a company finally crack the nut and make it work, that was Amazon.com. :laughing:
> 
> I then asked them if I could copyright the business plan of selling dollar bills for .99 cents, they said forget it that all the fix and flippers had that market cornered.:sad:


ever watch the Drew Carry show? The one where Oswald was gonna get rich with the change machine at the laundry mat. The existing machine charged money for the conversion, Oswald wasn't going to charge any money to change the dollar into 4 quarters. he was going to get all the business and be rich.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

john elliott said:


> Markup profit?? I thought most people knew by now that you have to make your money on the LABOR you supply, not the materials.
> 
> John


Seriously? The more material, the more markup, the more likely you are to actually make money. Labor is to hard to control (especially when you have employees) too easy to budget 5 hrs, but actually take 7 to do a task. 

Material is pretty well fixed. Know the price, mark it up, make a profit. Now, we are not talking T&M here, but fixed price jobs.

And not to really throw a monkey wrench into the mix, but consider the swing on that $900 tile mishap.

Assume the $900 includes sales tax, figured in properly at 20% profit (on the sale price) that tile should have cost the customer $1,125. Since it was forgotten, and cost the contractor $900 out of pocket, the total swing was $3,125. That's the difference in price between what the job should have cost and what was actually made.

Me personally, if the customer had max $20,000 to spend, they would get $20,000 worth of work. I would go the extra mile, but I wouldn't be ok with spending $1000 on tile, whether I forgot it or they couldn't afford it.

Mike, I have the copyright on the "lose money...make up in volume.." and I'll sell it to you for $0.99


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

mahlere said:


> Seriously? The more material, the more markup, the more likely you are to actually make money. Labor is to hard to control (especially when you have employees) too easy to budget 5 hrs, but actually take 7 to do a task.


But labor is the item that is in limited supply. Figure your hours annually and then ask yourself where you are going to get some more from? You can't go to the timber yard and buy time. You can work a certain number of hours every year and that's it. That's why you have to make your money on the time. BTW, if it takes you 7 hours to do a job that you budgeted 5 for, then you need to increase your hourly rate to allow for that


mahlere said:


> Material is pretty well fixed. Know the price, mark it up, make a profit. Now, we are not talking T&M here, but fixed price jobs.


That just makes it worse. Why on earth would you mark up materials that you are paying for????????? I can understand it if you were working T&M, the customer would be paying for the materials and you would be gaining the markup, but on fixed price jobs YOU are paying for the materials out of the total amount that you are getting for the job

The only sensible way to bid a job is to figure out how many hours it is going to take, then multiply that figure by your hourly rate. Then add the cost of the materials
Your hourly rate needs to take account of all your overhead, salary and profit requirements. It is not normally information you would want to share with your customers, it's internal information you use when figuring out how much to bid.

For those of you that make your money on the materials, how do you deal with situations where the materials are cheap? Do you settle for less profit? Or do you increase the markup?

John


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

john elliott said:


> Tom R was able to understand what I was saying, but apparently you haven't understood. Part of your misunderstanding is because you are extrapolating the point I made, about one single job, into a 3or 4 times situation
> As an aside, why would you markup materials that you were paying for yourself?
> Anyway, back to the main point. First of all, _of course an extra $1500 on a $20K job could be a deal breaker_. It may well be that $20K was the absolute max that that customer was going to pay, maybe he'd had bids of $17,500 and $18,000 from other contractors but Melissa had been able to convince him of the extra value they would bring to the job, but not another $1,500 on top
> So, my original point stands, maybe that $1500 was never there to lose in the first place.
> ...


John, I understand exactly what you're saying (your original post). And that theory is *FANTASY*. Hypothetical. Especially in how it applies to Melissa. You have no way of knowing her client's budget. Or do you?? 

She might be marking this and that up and charging for labor --- but she's leaving things out --- and taking too long to complete jobs. Both practices are fatal. 

Your quote: _"Why would you markup materials that you were going to pay for yourself"_
*Am I reading this right?? *You mark up to make money. And WHY are you going to pay for something yourself??? Again, did I read that right??

_Markup profit?? I thought most people knew by now that you have to make your money on the LABOR you supply, not the materials_


HUH?? I guess I'm not most people. *I mark up materials*. I even mark up on my own labor rate. Everyone else should too. 


And you not only mark up the cost of the materials --- but the sales tax, the delivery cost (freight, shipping, pickup) --- because those "incidentals" WILL eat up whatever your mark up was.

And John, if I am totally wrong here, PLEASE enlighten me. I come here for help. I do not know everything (again, I'm in kindergarten here).


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Dirt, (I just love that name, BTW, and yes, I've seen the film) just answer me this-
If you were working a job that was going to take you a week, and the materials were let's say $5000 and you marked them up and made money, what would you do if you then went on to another job which was also going to take a week, and the materials were only $1000. What would you do then, increase the markup or make less money. I need you to answer that question before we can proceed

John


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

i'll go into a full in-depth answer later, when I have time to sit with a good bottle of bourbon....

but for now, let say this. My labor rate, on a larger job, is "x". The number of man hours I figure this job for is "y". My material cost is "z"

So in order to figure your price, John, you are saying "(x*y)+z" - correct?

See I do it a little different - "x*y=labor, z*% profit margin=material"
add them together, and I get my price. 

Now, if my "y" is low (maybe due to things out of my control - employees) I lose money.

If my "y" is high, I make money.

But my material is constant, and I know that if I add 20% profit to my material, I'll make 20% on my material. 

I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but I don't do this for a hobby. I do this to make money. 

I will say this, even on flat rate service calls (which we do alot of) we markup our material anywhere from 10% -400% depending on the cost of the material.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Melissa, whenever I get that feeling like I'm missing something I go over it and over it, and then finally I just add another 10% and be done with it. I rationalize that screw it, I don't want the job if it's this close anyways, and if I get it, I'll be happy that I did.
> 
> Pretty scientific huh?


I sometimes do the EXACT same thing


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Melissa said:


> About 10 kitchens and 10 baths in our almost 4 yrs in business. The only excuse I have is
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Nope, sorry, no excuses.
> ...


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

Melissa, for you I would suggest doing what I (and probably most of the guys on this forum do):
Make yourself a very detailed generic checklist for your jobs, and then fill in the numbers and add your markup. My brother is a general, and he recently helped me price out a big reno. His checkist was 4 pages long, right down to including the coffee he brings when he visits the site. 
When I price out a job (admittedly, a deck is simpler than a kitchen reno), I use this checklist.
-footings
-ledger
-header
-beam
-joists
-floor
-bullnose
-railing
-pickets
-skirt
-groundcloth
-hardware
-screen
-provincial sales tax
-waste
-removal
-disposal
-runaround (picking up out of the ordinary materials, like glass, or special inserts, or some such)
Then I figure out my actual material for the job, add in the price, and come to a total.
For example
-beam: [email protected] $1.25/ft =$60.00
After figuring out material, I then figure out my labour. Mostly, I pay on a square foot basis, but if the deck is a little unusual, I'll pay more.
Then I add the whole thing up, and put a markup on it.

For example $1.00 material, $0.75 labour= $1.75 x 1.5= $2.62
Yes, I use a 50% markup on my work. For commerical I use a 35-40% markup, because the jobs are usually bigger.
And on residential, I'll sometimes discount to 40%, but never lower.
As har as material pricing: even if I get a special deal, I'll price on my regualr costs. For example, I recently bought a whole lot of cedar pickets at half price, but I used regular prices in my costing.

Some of you guys who mention 10% or 15% markups, surprise me.
I always thought that you mark up your job 15% for overhead, plus 15% for profit.
I personally wouldn't even bother with a job with only 10 or 15% in it for me. 

Oh, another thought. to answer John Elliot's point about lower material costs leading to lower markups:
I figured out what my total overhead is for the year. (I ran a speradsheet on it on a month by month basis). Then I figured out how many crews I average for the season. Then I divided that into my overhead, to give an idea of how much money each crew has to produce for me every day. So, if a job only has $500 in material, but 1000 in labour, I figure how long that job should take, and therefore how much money that crew has to produce.
For example, $1000 in labour means about 2 1/2 days. 
(Figure a 2 man crew is about $325 a day in wages, plus $75/day in trucks, fuel and tools, that's about $400 a day for a crew.)

Since a crew of mine should produce $350 in gross profit per day, then that job should produce at least $875 in profit. In this instance, a 50% markup would only produce $750 in profit, so my sale price would be $2375 instead of $2250.00
That's the way I do it, right or wrong. Others may have their own ideas or plans, which I'm sure they will put forth. 
And that's my story and I'm sticking to it!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

john elliott said:


> Markup profit?? I thought most people knew by now that you have to make your money on the LABOR you supply, not the materials.
> 
> John


   

*What happened to all those great customers you said you are working for?*:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: (couldn't resist, sorry.)

The short answer to why you mark-up materials is because *you can*. 

The long answer is in the search function, the subject has been discussed a dozen times and there are probably close to a dozen different reasons listed in those threads. 

Anyways, whether you choose to or not is your choice, but it is certainly a very accepted business practice here in the USA. Our material mark-up ranges 15% -200%.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

We do something similar to you Stone Mountain. First, I have a long word doc, about 7 pages long, which is basically a blank proposal, written in the order we do the job, with each possible scenario that will affect the price. Then, we go down the list and fill it in. Then, I copy & paste it into my excel spreadsheet that I already have the formulas entered. And we enter the dollar amounts for each line item- labor and materials, and the % of markup, and I get my price. 

Dirt, I know, excuses, excuses, but here goes anyway- we've been in business 4 years, BUT we made some pretty big changes over the summer, so it's almost like we were doing the jobs for the first time. We tried out having more jobs running, using more subs, and my husband not actually doing the work, and everything imaginable went wrong, subs were delaying us, materials weren't arriving on time, sick guys, customers changing their minds, subs and employees both breaking things, then having to wait for materials again. We learned quickly that when you have 7-8 jobs going at once, that is 7-8 times the mishaps during the day and it just multiplied fast! Our life quickly became a big 3-ring circus! :no: We are getting back on track now, one employee is gone, and we decided to cut some more waste, and hubby doing a lot of the work, answering his phone only twice a day, and many other changes.


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## tkle (Apr 15, 2006)

If I put my money in the bank,I get interest.If I'm bankrolling a job,I expect the same.Materials are not definite.You have miscalculations,shortages,breakage,waste,screw ups.If I could just go to work,I risk nothing but time.For material,I add 10% for tax,then 10% for waste and then 15-20% for my trouble.


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> *What happened to all those great customers you said you are working for?*:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: (couldn't resist, sorry.)


I don't know what you're laughing for, I never said I had 'all those great customers' all I said was that, unlike yours apparently, was that they weren't stupid and wouldn't fall for yours or Marc's sales 'techniques'



Mike Finley said:


> :
> The short answer to why you mark-up materials is because *you can*.
> 
> The long answer is in the search function, the subject has been discussed a dozen times and there are probably close to a dozen different reasons listed in those threads.
> ...



Shall I tell you why you material mark up price varies? Because it has to. Why does it have to? Because the cost of the material you use varies in relation to the time it takes to use it. So if it takes you a certain length of time to use a small amount of cheap material you need to mark it up more to make your money, and if it takes the same time to use more expensive material you don't need such a high markup.

All you and the others who are marking up material on fixed price jobs (again, why would anybody would markup stuff they themselves were paying for?) are jiggling figures instead of just charging the correct labor rate

BTW I learned this from USA based forums, so not every one in the USA is using your antiquated mark-up based systems

John


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

john elliott said:


> Dirt, (I just love that name, BTW, and yes, I've seen the film) just answer me this-
> If you were working a job that was going to take you a week, and the materials were let's say $5000 and you marked them up and made money, what would you do if you then went on to another job which was also going to take a week, and the materials were only $1000. What would you do then, increase the markup or make less money. I need you to answer that question before we can proceed
> 
> John


I see your point here, but I don't think that any of us try to live on the markup, it's just sort of an extra bonus. And it ends up being the same price for the customer in the end- if they were to buy their own tile, it would cost them, say $6/sq ft, where as we can buy it for $3/sq ft. 

John, The guy we buy our windows from gives us 10% off, and says that's how much we can tack on to it when charging the customer. He does this, so that we buy windows from him and him only. If he didn't do this, we would find someone else who did. It's how companies get our business.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

john elliott said:


> *Set your labor rate at the correct level* and you won't need to bother with different markups.


Don't they equate to the same though? 
You say tomato, I say tomahto. :laughing:


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Melissa said:


> Uh oh. No that's the real deal. What did I do wrong?
> 
> The labor figure includes our overhead..... is that where there's confusion?


Nothing wrong then.
My false assumption.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Page 4 ??

Mel, you sure know how to start a thread!!

Essentially, just make money. Make lots.

And make enough so that when you pay your taxes, you still can make what you set out to make --- best to learn this one from others.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> Essentially, just make money. Make lots.


Now that's just crazy talk 

You hitting the bottle again:whistling


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

*Guess what guys....*

I think I've got it all figured out. Are you ready for this? 

It goes back to the K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid! We've just been over-thinking, over-analyzing and basically just complicating things waaaay waaaay too much. 

I figure, there’s only 3 steps to this business- make the sale, estimate correctly, and do the work. Doing all 3 of these well = rich!


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## widco (Jan 16, 2004)

---


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

I went to a farmer's market recently, there was a lady there selling home made cakes. We started chatting and I could hear that she had an American accent. Some of the cakes she was selling were typically American, she even had some blueberry pie.
I asked her how she decided the prices, and this is what she said-
She estimates the amount of time it takes her to prepare the ingredients etc, and multiplies that by her labor rate which she then marked up by 20%. Then she costed the ingredients and marked those up by 30%, except for the eggs which might break so she marks those up by 60%, she carried on for quite a long time but I'd stopped listening by then

John


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

john elliott said:


> I went to a farmer's market recently, there was a lady there selling home made cakes. We started chatting and I could hear that she had an American accent. Some of the cakes she was selling were typically American, she even had some blueberry pie.
> I asked her how she decided the prices, and this is what she said-
> She estimates the amount of time it takes her to prepare the ingredients etc, and multiplies that by her labor rate which she then marked up by 20%. Then she costed the ingredients and marked those up by 30%, except for the eggs which might break so she marks those up by 60%, she carried on for quite a long time but I'd stopped listening by then
> 
> John




mmm, blueberry pie

crazy Americans --- marking up for materials

i mean, why not just charge for the labor and forget about it

just pickin on you John:cheesygri


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

awidmeyer said:


> What works for me for estimating is do a chronological breakdown of all the labor steps and assign a time to complete each task including picking up materials X labor rate giving a little extra time for unknown stuff, then calculate materials and add 20%, add sales tax, add Subs + 20%, come up with a subtotal and add 17.5% for overhead and 5% profit, so the subtotal is 77.5% of the total and the overhead & profit is 22.5%.
> ((Labor Hours X Hourly Rate) + (materials * 1.2) + (subs * 1.2) + (sales tax)) = Subtotal (direct costs). Direct costs = 77.5%, overhead = 17.5%, profit = 5%,
> 
> so if the labor was $2000 and the materials were $3000 the estimate would look like this
> ...


Okay, I'm especially lost now. :blink: :laughing: 
Adam, Do you get a good percentage of the jobs you quote on? Get told your prices are too high often? You'd be making over $1,000 more then us in one week.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

john elliott said:


> What I'm trying to get at here is that juggling figures like different markups for different materials and situations is just that- juggling figures. *Set your labor rate at the correct level* and you won't need to bother with different markups.
> 
> John



Why do you feel the need to tell everyone that *the only way to do it *is to only charge for labor? You're utterly ridiculous now. Geez. 

Doing it your way I would make less money. Why should I do it that way, why should I make less money, just because you do? We aren't laborers so it doesn't work the way it works for you.:yawn:


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Why do you feel the need to tell everyone that *the only way to do it *is to only charge for labor? You're utterly ridiculous now. Geez.
> 
> Doing it your way I would make less money. Why should I do it that way, why should I make less money, just because you do? We aren't laborers so it doesn't work the way it works for you.:yawn:


I *think* he's making the same money, but is labeling the charges differently???


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Melissa,

However you figure it, figure it truthfully. I think too many contractors lie to themselves about how much they really make.

Ask a small contractor how much profit they make -"50% profit" is an answer you will hear. they don't take into account their salary. or much of their overhead.

Most contractors can't tell you what a P&L is, let alone how to read it.

The toughest position to be in as a contractor is knowing your true costs, but not being big enough to not deal with the bottom dwellers.

Does that make sense? I know I need to make $1000 on this job, but every Tom, Dick and Harry (offense meant to all 3 of those guys btw) is bidding it for $600. And I'll never get a job, so I gotta work work $600. Even though I know I'm losing money. Etc. It's a vicious circle.

But IMHO, you need to know all your costs, be able to accurately estimate labor hours, make sure you account for ALL, I repeat ALL, your material and understand that if you need $21,000, you can't do the job for $20,000 just because that's the homeowners budget. 

My old man taught me when I was young - "I can go broke sitting on my ass fishing, I don't need to work hard to get there"

good luck. Running a successful business takes searching deep in your soul and being completely honest with yourself. Too many people don't and aren't.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

john elliott said:


> On the other hand, and I presume you are not working T&M but fixed price bid, if you had factored in the tile at $900 plus markup, then your bid would obviously have been that much higher and you may not have got the job- so you haven't necessarily lost money.
> 
> John


John, still not understanding this. If they needed $20,000 to do the job right and make a 10% profit ($2000) and they forgot $900 worth of tile, which they had to buy. They just lost almost 50% of their profit. 

If they bid the job wrong in other places, and were only breaking even at best, they are now $900 on the red on the job.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

mahlere said:


> Melissa,
> 
> However you figure it, figure it truthfully. I think too many contractors lie to themselves about how much they really make.
> 
> ...



I think that's the best single piece of advice I've seen on this forum


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

mahlere said:


> John, still not understanding this. If they needed $20,000 to do the job right and make a 10% profit ($2000) and they forgot $900 worth of tile, which they had to buy. They just lost almost 50% of their profit.
> 
> If they bid the job wrong in other places, and were only breaking even at best, they are now $900 on the red on the job.


Mahlere --- I wouldn't put the energy in it --- not worth the depreciation on your keyboard


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

I got time, I might learn something new. Never know.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

mahlere said:


> John, still not understanding this. If they needed $20,000 to do the job right and make a 10% profit ($2000) and they forgot $900 worth of tile, which they had to buy. They just lost almost 50% of their profit.
> 
> If they bid the job wrong in other places, and were only breaking even at best, they are now $900 on the red on the job.


Not that it really even matters... but the price of the job was $33,280. So, the $900 is about 3%-4%???


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## Debookkeeper (Jul 23, 2006)

:blink: :blink:


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

:blink: Did I miss something?


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Melissa said:


> Not that it really even matters... but the price of the job was $33,280. So, the $900 is about 3%-4%???


What I got from John's post is that if you added the $900, so job would be $34,180, you might have lost the job. So, by forgetting the $900, you made $33,280-$900 or $32,380. Of course this doesn't take into account that it might have cost you $32,400 to do the job. 

I don't know. I'm just having a hard time making sure that I am understanding it correctly.


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Johnny - you'll never find me in the need to make up stuff about you or anyone else


And yet you do.
John


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