# Average time for kitchen remodels?



## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> He offered to either work by the hour or quote the job. being that I was going to help whenever possible to save my aunt money we decided hourly would be fair to everyone. I bowl with the guy and from the talk I was fooled that he was actually descent and knew his ****. Keep in mind I have done my fair share of remodel work and my father is a general contractor as well so I know enough. His hourly rate he asked for matches his union cash wage ( keep in mind he is collecting unemployment as well )
> 
> As far as some of the work I am not impressed for what he charges and acts like he knows. Uneven floor tile, substandard drywall work, crooked microwave install. anyway....


You do know that in PA, T&M jobs are no longer "legal"?...oh, wait, it was a side job, what was I thinking.


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

mics_54 said:


> So..you have done your fair share of remodeling work and your dad is a general contractor and you hired a HACK rather than a legitimate kitchen remodeler that by the way are needing the work these days... jeremy..dude...did you just come here to get spanked because you know you deserve it?
> Jeremy..what would you do differently next time?


 
Well yes I need to clarify a bit. As in my profile HVAC is my main field and I am so busy with my own stuff that I couldnt devote full time to the project. ANDDDDD my father has "issues" that dont allow him to be reliable at all times. He does amazing work and if he could be trusted to be timely he would be doing the work, its quite depressing actually. Anyway thats why we did what we did. In a nutshell


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

CookeCarpentry said:


> You do know that in PA, T&M jobs are no longer "legal"?...oh, wait, it was a side job, what was I thinking.


 
Yeah thats the best part. When we asked for his "bill" he wrote it up on a proposal form with nothing more than a total and a summary. And his total was just a random number. came to 307.14 hours! So its a number he pulled out of the sky. As far as I'm concerned at this point I will look over his "hours" when we get them and decide what is fair. He has no contract and no recourse because he's collecting. Like I said I thought I was doing the guy a favor since he's laid off and we all know you can't live on unemployment alone. Rape is not what I expected though.


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

mics_54 said:


> What union?
> WTF is a "union cash wage"?


 
Carpenters union.

When you talk about union work there is their "total compensation" and what they actually get hourly (cash)

He makes $35 an hour PLUS all of his benefits which the union probably brings up to $55. 

SO anyway he was charging us $35 (CASH MONEY)

Here is my biggest issue. When I confronted him about this he claimed this is the time I have on the job! Then showed me his notebook in the truck where he simply puts the time he arrives and the time he leaves. No downtime for lunch / talking / etc. Now when I am on a job and there is downtime like taking important calls, BSing with the customer, unproductive time, etc. I don't charge for that. It's just not fair when your charging top rate. Thats called overhead. And being that he was a "friend" whenever I got there we would chat, he talked alot with my aunt every day, etc. One day on his way out he watched me and my helper installing a light fixture, and talking for half an hour while doing NOTHING. Apparently that was billable time.

Also I don't think paying top dollar for a total job is fair when the job would have went much faster using a cheaper paid helper like I do when on installs. I don't think paying for his inefficiency should cost us more. All he had to say is "this is the the time I had on the job" When I asked him do you really think this is the time it SHOULD have taken he repeated the above. He is one of those guys that think going into business is just like it was when you worked for someone. Punch a clock in and out. 

It's just ridiculous.


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

Heres another fun fact. He wants to install a heat pump in his house and asked me for prices on equipment only since he can run his own ductowork (he claims this is easy and anyone can do it). So I quoted him a price on a system with a small markup. He called MY DISTRIBUTOR asking for prices! Then told me since he is a contractor he doesnt see a problem doing this. 

I just laughed at him. The last thing I told him is he's been working for the union too long.:furious:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I charge the HO to drop a duce in their spare bathroom.


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I charge the HO to drop a duce in their spare bathroom.


 
Well if you get away with it and can sleep at night fine. Theres a fine line between normal days and just being inefficient and slow. If I decide to cut a field with a pair of scissors it doesn't mean I get paid more because it takes me longer! If I spend an hour every day yapping the customers ear off I don't think that constitutes a larger paycheck.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Let me make sure I understand this correctly;

You had an unlicensed contractor (oops sorry "union carpenter") remodel your aunts kitchen including not only finishes but also electrical and plumbing work to help her save money. You agreed to a verbal contract that you knew to be illegal with the aforementioned "contractor". You allowed the completely unlicensed contractor to engage in specialty trades that are unrelated to his trade and require additional licensure and or certification (electrical & plumbing). You now want dictate to the unlicensed contractor how many hours he worked or maybe you mean to say how long in your opinion it should have taken (which would actually be the opinion of other contractors posting here as you do not know how long it should have taken) even though he showed you the times he wrote down: when he got there and when he left. I am willing to bet you also pulled no permits in the name of saving your aunt money, which would have been neccesary for the wall, plumbing, and electrical alterations.

If that is correct you now have to worry about a boat load of potential problems that could have easily been avoided by hiring a legitimate contractor in the first place. So do you truly feel you saved any money for your aunt by your actions? You deserve any problems that may arise out of this and must not like your aunt very much to expose her to the liabilities that you have.


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Let me make sure I understand this correctly;
> 
> You had an unlicensed contractor (oops sorry "union carpenter") remodel your aunts kitchen including not only finishes but also electrical and plumbing work to help her save money. You agreed to a verbal contract that you knew to be illegal with the aforementioned "contractor". You allowed the completely unlicensed contractor to engage in specialty trades that are unrelated to his trade and require additional licensure and or certification (electrical & plumbing). You now want dictate to the unlicensed contractor how many hours he worked or maybe you mean to say how long in your opinion it should have taken (which would actually be the opinion of other contractors posting here as you do not know how long it should have taken) even though he showed you the times he wrote down: when he got there and when he left. I am willing to bet you also pulled no permits in the name of saving your aunt money, which would have been neccesary for the wall, plumbing, and electrical alterations.
> 
> If that is correct you now have to worry about a boat load of potential problems that could have easily been avoided by hiring a legitimate contractor in the first place. So do you truly feel you saved any money for your aunt by your actions? You deserve any problems that may arise out of this and must not like your aunt very much to expose her to the liabilities that you have.


 
Who said anything about unlicensed? Being from VA I know you probably have different procedures as far as licensing but in PA the only thing we have for licensing is the new Home Improvement Contractor license of which my buddy currently has as well as myself. All you need to get that is insurance of a measly 300k. As far as pulling permits you don't need to pull permits for moving existing wiring and replacing OUTLETS. And for the things that were changed I made sure it was all up to code. PA has a different set of electrical permit requirements depending on what block your on. In our township it is legal for the homeowner to do their own wiring. That being said I can show you pictures of what was done in my house before we moved in and that was passed for god knows what reason. 

And if you read you will see I did the plumbing alterations. Which was only water lines anyway. Nothing required of a "licensed plumber" 

My whole point of this was to find out average times. I don't want to turn it into a pissing match about who and what was done according to what you think is "legitimate" The permit process in most of this country is so damn corrupt and ridiculous anyway I don't even want to get started on what a waste it is. My problem is someone charging for substandard work and padding the bill for stuff he shouldn't have. 

Get off your high horse please. I don't know alot of contractors that don't do other misc work in other trades.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

The whole things a cluster F&*K.

Just pay the bill and move on.

This is what you get when you hire hacks. Hacks and T&M billing come hand in hand.

You learned your lesson, there is no free lunch, there is no great job at a cheap price. Saving money = cutting corners either in quality, productivity, peace of mind or aggrivation, usually some part of all of them.

You hire a hack and pay him T&M, how long do you think it's going to take him to do the job? 

Next time have your relative hire a real company to do the work. Pony up the dough and enjoy the process or do this all over again.


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

You guys are really missing the damn point here. This is a guy that claims he is a contractor. In PA that is all it takes. He has a HIC license, has a business name even (although he cant take checks in that name). The point of making it hourly was that any work that I did was fairly taken off the top and fair for him as well. I've know that guy for many years so we figured it was fair both ways. I didn't pick some guy off of craigslist that is working for $10 an hour. Usually when you charge more theres a reason. And Id rather give the work to someone I know. The saving money thing was a given because her original quote was from the big orange box (don't even get me started, I never wanted her to go there)
. I liked the guy and talking with him it always seemed that he knew his sh!t and was a stand up guy. Otherwise I would have never even considered him. 

Anyway stop with the hack and trash talk because I know plenty of licensed, legitimate HACKS in every trade. Just because you're big and have a bunch of employees doesn't make you golden. I've seen better work from one man shows than most companies. 

And exactly what dictates licensing or "ability" these days anyway? You have a moulding license, taping license, tiling license, etc? There is no way to tell sometimes who should or can do certain things. I know in my trade there are plenty of things we get wrapped up in that we don't always have to do. You cant call another contractor in all the time for every little thing either.

Man and I thought HVAC-talk was bad with the blowhards.... whew.:no:


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## abacab (Sep 16, 2009)

I don't think $10,745 is unreasonable (35x307) for the scope of the project and the work that he did. I think you should make him fix anything that doesn't look professional for free and call it a day. I would hope that he didn't charge for just being on the job, and if he was you should deduct how much extra time he spent bull****ting. Normal discussion of the job however is part of the job. If the homeowner engages me in extended conversation, that is part of the job too, as the homeowners knows I'm on the clock, and I ain't going to loose money because the homeowner just has to tell me about his weekend.


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

abacab said:


> I don't think $10,745 is unreasonable (35x307) for the scope of the project and the work that he did. I think you should make him fix anything that doesn't look professional for free and call it a day. I would hope that he didn't charge for just being on the job, and if he was you should deduct how much extra time he spent bull****ting. Normal discussion of the job however is part of the job. If the homeowner engages me in extended conversation, that is part of the job too, as the homeowners knows I'm on the clock, and I ain't going to loose money because the homeowner just has to tell me about his weekend.


 
Well thats the problem. He likes to talk. About all of his problems with his kids, etc. Not to mention we asked for the list of his hours which he claimed to have and its been a week and he hasn't produced it. The fact is it was agreed to be hourly so I expect to see hours listed and work performed at a minimum. I do service work and the customer gets hours and work performed at a minimum. I was hanging lights one day and he just jumped in and started telling me how I should do it, taking apart a light, etc to find a way to hang pendant lights without cutting new boxes into the ceiling (the proper way) I didn't ask for his help, I was planning on doing it right and he was there to try to tell me otherwise. Its just too much to explain. The best is when I told him about a crooked tile and he told me that the tile spacers go in and that all you can do, the tile goes where it goes! Or when he ran ten gage wire for a 50 amp circuit. Then he argued with me on that too saying water heaters are 50 amps so whats the difference. Being in HVAC Ive installed many water heaters and knew this wasn't true yet he still argued. 

I'm at the point where he doesn't have a contract and I'll offer a fair rate. If he doesn't like it he can take us to court and explain to them his underhanded ways.


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## MacRoadie (Dec 9, 2007)

Treefiddy hours, give or take fiddy...


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

MacRoadie said:


> Treefiddy hours, give or take fiddy...


 
really? I cant grasp that number. If I sit down and break it down into days it just doesnt add up to me. And I always go high with estimates. 

Heres a breakdown that I can see perhaps:

Tearout - 16
painting/wallpaper removal - 10
trim - 8
tile - 20
backsplash - 8
cabinet hanging - 40
wall removal/close in old wall - 30
electrical - 8
misc - 32

Ive watched guys change a whole office wing around. steel studs to finish painting in less time!


I just cant see this takeing more than 200 hours. If your working wisely and know what your doing. :no::no:


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Someone please end the pain:blink:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> Well thats the problem. He likes to talk. About all of his problems with his kids, etc. Not to mention we asked for the list of his hours which he claimed to have and its been a week and he hasn't produced it. The fact is it was agreed to be hourly so I expect to see hours listed and work performed at a minimum. I do service work and the customer gets hours and work performed at a minimum. I was hanging lights one day and he just jumped in and started telling me how I should do it, taking apart a light, etc to find a way to hang pendant lights without cutting new boxes into the ceiling (the proper way) I didn't ask for his help, I was planning on doing it right and he was there to try to tell me otherwise. Its just too much to explain. The best is when I told him about a crooked tile and he told me that the tile spacers go in and that all you can do, the tile goes where it goes! Or when he ran ten gage wire for a 50 amp circuit. Then he argued with me on that too saying water heaters are 50 amps so whats the difference. Being in HVAC Ive installed many water heaters and knew this wasn't true yet he still argued.
> 
> I'm at the point where he doesn't have a contract and I'll offer a fair rate. If he doesn't like it he can take us to court and explain to them his underhanded ways.


You should have requested a daily log from the guy listing what he did each day and how many hours he had put in.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> You guys are really missing the damn point here. This is a guy that claims he is a contractor. In PA that is all it takes. He has a HIC license, has a business name even (although he cant take checks in that name). The point of making it hourly was that any work that I did was fairly taken off the top and fair for him as well. I've know that guy for many years so we figured it was fair both ways. I didn't pick some guy off of craigslist that is working for $10 an hour. Usually when you charge more theres a reason. And Id rather give the work to someone I know. The saving money thing was a given because her original quote was from the big orange box (don't even get me started, I never wanted her to go there)
> . I liked the guy and talking with him it always seemed that he knew his sh!t and was a stand up guy. Otherwise I would have never even considered him.
> 
> Anyway stop with the hack and trash talk because I know plenty of licensed, legitimate HACKS in every trade. Just because you're big and have a bunch of employees doesn't make you golden. I've seen better work from one man shows than most companies.
> ...


Does a HIC license include electrical and plumbing?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Hindsight is 20/20.

You thought this guy was great, he's a turd. 

Now you know you are an absolute terrible judge of character. 

Next time hire a reputable company. Pony up the extra money it costs to have a professional do the work, along which comes a warranty in writing and no excuses.

References, BBB membership, portfolio of work, copies of insurance... etc... any of that sound good now?

You get what you pay for, tattoo it on your arm and look at it every day. 

Always remember T&M is a suckers game. It's the favorite method of all hacks. Now you know why.

Bottom line, you know it, we all know it, you got seduced by trying to get a deal and got bent over by a professional hack. You play with fire and sometimes you get burned.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

So you knew he was registered but couldn't take checks in the company name? To me, that would indicate he was not registered.

Swapping out receptacles (no new wiring) usually does not require a permit in PA. Moving water lines and DWV does require a permit. 

The PA HIC registration does not cover electrical, plumbing, hvac.

Your numbers seem off in most categories for labor (low).

Bottom line is you hired a guy who turned out to be a hack, now you want to beat him over the head for payment. You are just as guilty as he is. How can you be in the business (HVAC trade) and not know the value of a good contractor, a good contract, warranty, etc, etc.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> And if you want to put me down why dont we talk about it face to face. It's easy to be tough over a computer.


I'm not putting you or anyone else down. You posted a problem, asking for input, which is what you got. 

If you don't like it, don't ask, or go somewhere else. Seems to me that you were hoping to garner a bunch of "fellow contractor" support, but were called on the carpet for hiring a hack and getting burned by him.

P.S. Gene does walk on water...if you were around here long enough you would see some of the fine work him and others of us do on here.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Gus Dering said:


> I just scanned through this thread so forgive me if this has been clearly stated. Maybe someone can give me a post # if it has.
> 
> Has there been a clear list of the scope of work this guy did for the 300 some hours?
> 
> ...


Gus - post #35


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Gus Dering said:


> I just scanned through this thread so forgive me if this has been clearly stated. Maybe someone can give me a post # if it has.
> 
> Has there been a clear list of the scope of work this guy did for the 300 some hours?
> 
> ...


Gus, it's like talking to a wall. Unless you want to entertain your ADD, then by all means, read it all!!!!


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Hey Angus, I'm glad you are on this one!


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Jeremy,
> 
> I was trying to be nice about this. But now you're attacking some of the members here. No one called _YOU _a hack, just the guy that performed the work. Lighten up!
> 
> ...


 
OK then you define to me the difference between unqualified and qualified. Because as far as I am concerned if a person is licensed and has experience, insurance, etc. he makes the "qualified" mark.

GOOD and qualified are two different things.

The simple fact is you guys are very quick to judge yet have no useful input to the question I asked in the first place. If you want to cut down every little thing and spout what you think qualifies a person I can sit here and spout what I think qualifies someone as well. 

BBB membership (biggest joke on the planet, the BBB is nothing more than a business, they use underhanded tactics to get contractors to sign up for their useless membership)

Licensing ( who cant get a license? all it takes is insurance, money and maybe some work credentials)

Now this guy has been working in the field a long time. Has licensing and talks the talk, has the insurance, the tools, etc. Does that scream hack to me? Not really. He didn't show up working out of his car. Show up with the Ryobi tool multi pack. 

YES we didn't sign a contract. Theres a reason. I trusted the prick. YES I realize NOW that was a mistake (once again thank you all for making that point) What I am trying to figure out now is what people think it should have taken. WHY or WHAT I do with that information is up to me no? I am not looking for justification because I have seen enough of this work done in my lifetime to know what it takes within reason. I saw the whole job go down. I saw how long certain simple tasks took. I saw that he struggled to move a few wires. I get it.

Yes I am a bit on the edge because I am already agitated about the situation and I wasn't looking to come here and get cut apart by a bunch of guys that really don't have a clue to all of the things that went down. If you don't want to help me fine. If you cant take the time to help or offer help but can find the time to cut me down and criticize everything then whatever. Perhaps I can be perfect like you all one day.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> OK then you define to me the difference between unqualified and qualified.


See post 39 - best sums up qualified/good.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

:yawn::sleep1::sleep1:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> OK then you define to me the difference between unqualified and qualified. Because as far as I am concerned if a person is licensed and has experience, insurance, etc. he makes the "qualified" mark.
> 
> GOOD and qualified are two different things.
> 
> ...


Hey sh*t head... why should we qualify what is qualified? You're the one telling us you got SCREWED. 

Is your guy qualified? You tell us? Why are you asking all this crap if you think your guy is qualified.

Pay the bill, STFU. 

You keep going back and forth first on one hand you ***** about the guy and then on the other you defend him?

Bi-polar? 

Is this one of those stories ... my "friend" has a problem, every time he pees it hurts...what should I tell 'him' to do?

When you get older you can smell a hack a mile away. You haven't developed the fine hack sensing perception skills we have. We smelled them from 2000 miles away over the internet.

Unfortunately when it comes to hacks, we all think the same thing here...

who is worse.. the hack... or the guy that hires him?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> OK then you define to me the difference between unqualified and qualified. Because as far as I am concerned if a person is licensed and has experience, insurance, etc. he makes the "qualified" mark.


JEREMY!!!!! _*You *_continually are telling _*us *_he wasn't qualified....



jeremy-lvhm said:


> I just had a guy work on a kitchen remodel for a relative and the hours were beyond belief.
> 
> I bowl with the guy and from the talk I was fooled that he was actually descent and knew his ****.
> 
> ...


THEN on top of that you continually saying there are no reason for permits.

Sorry, you are barking up the wrong tree....:whistling


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

CookeCarpentry said:


> See post 39 - best sums up qualified/good.


 

Even the worst guys get lucky enough to get a few good jobs to get pictures of some good work and happy people to say good things.

BBB is BS that anyone can buy into. It was for before the internet when we couldnt easily find bad ratings on companies.


Anyway. I run a company and do good work. I don't screw people over even when its T and M. And YES that is still legal when your doing service work. Like I said. The guy seemed on the up and up. I didn't realize until the job was well on its way that he was out of his mind. I just cant understand how these people ever get the idea in their head that they are any good. And right now with the economy the way it is there are alot of guys just like this out there. Anyway I'm done arguing. I am looking four hours. Thats all at this point.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

rselectric1 said:


> Hey Angus, I'm glad you are on this one!


I'm not :laughing::clap:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Hey sh*t head... why should we qualify what is qualified? You're the one telling us you got SCREWED.
> 
> Is your guy qualified? You tell us? Why are you asking all this crap if you think your guy is qualified.
> 
> ...


Really.What does he want to hear?:blink:
Yes,the guy that did the work is a hack.Yes he (the OP) is a boob for hiring him...Either pay him or don't.

It's a loose,loose situation...


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> Yes I am a bit on the edge because I am already agitated about the situation and I wasn't looking to come here and get cut apart by a bunch of guys that really don't have a clue to all of the things that went down. If you don't want to help me fine. If you cant take the time to help or offer help but can find the time to cut me down and criticize everything then whatever. Perhaps I can be perfect like you all one day.


My suggestion is you get your wigi board out and conjure up the ghost of manny the handyman from contractor talk past. He will feel your pain and he will give you a shoulder to cry on.










Manny come in... Manny are you out there....


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> when its T and M. And YES that is still legal when your doing service work


Since when is a kitchen remodel service work?


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

angus242 said:


> JEREMY!!!!! _*You *_continually are telling _*us *_he wasn't qualified....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
What I am saying is I know that NOW. Jesus chrsit you guys know how to twist words. My point is beforehand how would I know with the information I was presented.

Nor did I ever say there are no reason for permits. Find those words for me in my posts please.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> Yes I am a bit on the edge because I am already agitated about the situation and I wasn't looking to come here and get cut apart by a bunch of guys that really don't have a clue to all of the things that went down. If you don't want to help me fine. If you cant take the time to help or offer help but can find the time to cut me down and criticize everything then whatever.


IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, THIS IS THE BEST ADVICE YOU'RE GONNA GET IN THIS THREAD:
*
DON'T HIRE SOMEONE WHO ISN'T QUALIFIED FOR THE ENTIRE JOB (HE WAS NOT)

DON'T ALLOW ANY WORK WITHOUT A WRITTEN CONTRACT

GET ANY AND ALL NECESSARY PERMITS*

And you also say we don't know what all went down. How the FACH can we tell you a realistic amount of time for this job?????????


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Since when is a kitchen remodel service work?


 
Wow are you guys thick. DID I SAY IT WAS? I was just prempting your next strike of telling ME I cant charge T and M. Thats all.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> What I am saying is I know that NOW.


What do you need our input for then?




jeremy-lvhm said:


> Jesus chrsit you guys know how to twist words.


Thank you, we take pride in it.



jeremy-lvhm said:


> My point is beforehand how would I know with the information I was presented.


Perhaps from references, work portfolio, verifying licensing with the state, calling local municipalities to see if there are any complaints against him, the BBB, chamber of commerce, etc, etc.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

angus242 said:


> IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, THIS IS THE BEST ADVICE YOU'RE GONNA GET IN THIS THREAD:
> *
> DON'T HIRE SOMEONE WHO ISN'T QUALIFIED FOR THE ENTIRE JOB (HE WAS NOT)
> 
> ...


And a little supervision would not have hurt either.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Jeremy, I think you turned some posters against you when you made the "face to face" comment. If this forum was meant to be confrontational, it wouldn't work. It would just go away. From what I have seen, the senior posters are just calling you on something you need to step back and take a look at. You are really contradicting yourself.
You can't enter a forum where honest firms are getting lowballed, and expect any sympathy from like minded people when you admit doing something that contributes to the root cause.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> Dude what the **** is your problem? You honestly think your that ****ing perfect that you can act like this? Jesus christ.


Apparently we have stooped to sending private messages berating people.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

*LIGHTEN UP FRANCIS.*


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> Nor did I ever say there are no reason for permits. Find those words for me in my posts please.





jeremy-lvhm said:


> As far as pulling permits you don't need to pull permits for moving existing wiring and replacing OUTLETS. And for the things that were changed I made sure it was all up to code.


 And who determines they were up to code? Perhaps an inspector?



jeremy-lvhm said:


> PA has a different set of electrical permit requirements depending on what block your on. In our township it is legal for the homeowner to do their own wiring.


 Are you sure you don't mean it's legal for a HO to PULL their own permit?



jeremy-lvhm said:


> The permit process in most of this country is so damn corrupt and ridiculous anyway I don't even want to get started on what a waste it is


Jeremy, you KNOW the guy screwed you or your aunt over. Stop defending him. Take your medicine. This is a lesson you will now never forget. Since this was all verbal, pay him whatever you want. If he argues, send him here. We'll talk to him for you :laughing:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Apparently we have stooped to sending private messages berating people.


Hey, I didn't get one. _*I'm *_the internet creep around here!


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Hey, I didn't get one. _*I'm *_the internet creep around here!


Check your PM.


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Apparently we have stooped to sending private messages berating people.


 

You just proved my point. You are proud of twisting words and told me so. So obviously you like to act superior to others. Let me come by one day and check out your HVAC installation and I will cut you apart for the work that was done by your ****ty hvac workers. Just like you decide to cut me down for something someone else has done to me. Have a good day mr cooke


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Check your PM.


I stand corrected. :sad:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I am still soooOOOooo confused.What does this guy want to hear????
That he did nothing wrong and is a victim?


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

jeremy-lvhm said:


> You just proved my point. You are proud of twisting words and told me so. So obviously you like to act superior to others. Let me come by one day and check out your HVAC installation and I will cut you apart for the work that was done by your ****ty hvac workers. Just like you decide to cut me down for something someone else has done to me. Have a good day mr cooke


Just because you are an HVAC guy who hires hack contractors to do work doesn't by default make me a contractor who hires hack HVAC guys. 

And by all means you can come by and check out my fully permitted (with a signed contract) and subcontracted HVAC work - provided you don't whine and cry like you did on here when you realize there is nothing to "cut apart".


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

Yeah, I reckon this thread has run its course.


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## jeremy-lvhm (Sep 28, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Jeremy, you KNOW the guy screwed you or your aunt over. Stop defending him. Take your medicine. This is a lesson you will now never forget. Since this was all verbal, pay him whatever you want. If he argues, send him here. We'll talk to him for you :laughing:


 LOL thanks

He is too stubborn to listen to other contractors. 

I'm not defending him. Just my decisions in hiring the prick in the first place. Anyway I am going to go to the HVAC forum now and see if I can actually help someone. Since I cant seem to get the help I actually asked for here.

Sorry to bother you all. I do like to debate but this is going nowhere. RIP as some of you said.


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