# Buttering both tile and Floor



## kcbasements (Feb 5, 2010)

There is a tile guy that I have just started to use. When he tiles the floor, he butters the floor and then the tile every time. The guy has laid tile for a number of years and that is all he does. Still, I am a bit concerned with his application method as it does not comply with the directions on the bag of thin set.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Back buttering never hurts.

I do it on all porcelain & stone and/or tiles 12" or larger.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Just to clarify, is he buttering both and not troweling the thinset??


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Just to clarify, I will flat trowel one surface and ridge the other.


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## bazemk1979 (May 20, 2009)

kcbasements said:


> There is a tile guy that I have just started to use. When he tiles the floor, he butters the floor and then the tile every time. The guy has laid tile for a number of years and that is all he does. Still, I am a bit concerned with his application method as it does not comply with the directions on the bag of thin set.


Nothing wrong with back buttering,actually they say it should give better bonding (so they say) I only do it on a travertine that sort of looks dusty on the back side and then I back butter it.

What you really need to be concern is not the back buttering the tile,but if you'r tile guy beside sweeping the area before he lays the tile,its very important to lightly wipe it off with semi wet sponge."NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU SWEEP THE AREA" a slight wipe with sponge without wetting the concrette but enough to remove the left over dust is a MUST,and then if he wants to butter the tile...well he can do whatever he wants after that....


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

angus242 said:


> Just to clarify, I will flat trowel one surface and ridge the other.


 I know what your sayin:thumbup: but in KC's text, it sounds as if he's burnin the tile and floor and setting it so i got confused


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Tech Dawg said:


> I know what your sayin:thumbup: but in KC's text, it sounds as if he's burnin the tile and floor and setting it so i got confused


I thought I was the only guy on here gettin cornfoosed. :confused1:


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

angus242 said:


> I thought I was the only guy on here gettin cornfoosed. :confused1:


:laughing:


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

I have a feeling the guy is notching both the tile and the floor. I don't necessarily see a problem with that, depending on the notch size and the type of mortar.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

I always back butter the floor and tile with a notched trowel, then alternate the grooves so it acts like suction cups. 
Back buttering gives full support to the tile and makes it crack resistant when moving heavy things like a refrigerator dolly across it.
He is giving you a better job than the fast and cheap, lick and stick guy.


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## kcbasements (Feb 5, 2010)

He is definitely taking extra time to achieve better results. :thumbsup: I just had some concern with an excess build up of thin set.


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

kcbasements said:


> He is definitely taking extra time to achieve better results. :thumbsup: I just had some concern with an excess build up of thin set.


What size notch, and what type of mortar?


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

I would also think you are having too much thinset underneath it. I can see skimming the floor flat, and then notch troweling the tile itself. but not both.
depending on the tile you'd have extra thinset filling the grout joint and it would probably make lippage harder to control. 

I have done a lot of tile floors and walls and never done both. If the layout is easy and I can lay a lot of tile faster, then I will notch the floor first but lately, the last year or more I've been back buttering the tile itself. I normally use 1/4x1/4 square unless it's a 2x2 or small matt, then I use 3/16 V notch or 1/8 v.


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

ApgarNJ said:


> I would also think you are having too much thinset underneath it. I can see skimming the floor flat, and then notch troweling the tile itself. but not both.
> depending on the tile you'd have extra thinset filling the grout joint and it would probably make lippage harder to control.
> 
> I have done a lot of tile floors and walls and never done both. If the layout is easy and I can lay a lot of tile faster, then I will notch the floor first but lately, the last year or more I've been back buttering the tile itself. I normally use 1/4x1/4 square unless it's a 2x2 or small matt, then I use 3/16 V notch or 1/8 v.


What size tile are you using a 1/4x1/4 square notch on? Anything larger than a 6x6 and you are likely not getting enough coverage. On floors anyway.

One could easily notch both floor and tile with a 1/4x1/4 square notch and thinset without excess build up. The question would be, why? 

Actually, the more mortar you use, the easier it is to control lippage. Joints should be cleaned out as you go no matter what. But, if you plan on building up a lot, you really should use a medium bed or multi purpose mortar.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

When I Key in thinset, I usally spread it out thick on the floor and let it sit for a few while I'm burning my next couple tiles. Then I notch so that the floor is skimmed and set the tile... I don't know if that's right by CT member standards, but that's how I learned to do a floor? Any suggestions or changes that I should make? I'm always obsessing on improving the small stuff...


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

Tech Dawg said:


> When I Key in thinset, I usally spread it out thick on the floor and let it sit for a few while I'm burning my next couple tiles. Then I notch so that the floor is skimmed and set the tile... I don't know if that's right by CT member standards, but that's how I learned to do a floor? Any suggestions or changes that I should make? I'm always obsessing on improving the small stuff...


I don't think you should ever purposely let thinset "sit for a while". Once you spread, you should tile over it as quickly as possible.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

... my "go to" notch is 1/4 x 3/8... I don't mind big knuckles but its easier for me to notch the other way... with a larger 16 or 18" tile I have knotched with 1/4x 3/8 and back buttered with 3/16" v notch. Maybe I'm ass backwards... :shifty:


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

HS345 said:


> I don't think you should ever purposely let thinset "sit for a while". Once you spread, you should tile over it as quickly as possible.


I'm only talkin approx 2 minutes // (which is around the time it takes me to burn 3-4 tiles)


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

Tech Dawg said:


> ... my "go to" notch is 1/4 x 3/8... I don't mind big knuckles but its easier for me to notch the other way... with a larger 16 or 18" tile I have knotched with 1/4x 3/8 and back buttered with 3/16" v notch. Maybe I'm ass backwards... :shifty:


I use more mortar than most guys. The smallest I like to use on a floor is 1/4x1/2 u-notch. 

If you get the job done mechanically correct, there's no such thing as "ass backwards" Dawg. :thumbup:

Now.....bass ackwards is another story. :jester:


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

Tech Dawg said:


> I'm only talkin approx 2 minutes // (which is around the time it takes me to burn 3-4 tiles)


You're probably fine. Just curious, what is the purpose of spreading thinset on the floor before you are ready to bed the tile in?


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

I guess its a nonsense subconcious feeling... letting it sit for a minute or 2 before knotching seems to start sticking to cbu better so when I notch it will skim better on the bottom side and my other feeling is that it would sit I'm the bucket for that amount of time...

Maybe I'm bass ackwards, :laughing:


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

Tech Dawg said:


> I guess its a nonsense subconcious feeling... letting it sit for a minute or 2 before knotching seems to start sticking to cbu better so when I notch it will skim better on the bottom side and my other feeling is that it would sit I'm the bucket for that amount of time...
> 
> Maybe I'm bass ackwards, :laughing:


:laughing:

:whistling:

Just a small note, in the bucket it doesn't have the substrate sucking moisture out of it.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Also, with the previous set tile that has notch nubs sticking out past the tile.... they get skimmed back in with the fresh mortar to keep it from hardening up..... then I notch.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Tech Dawg said:


> ... my "go to" notch is 1/4 x 3/8... I don't mind big knuckles but its easier for me to notch the other way... with a larger 16 or 18" tile I have knotched with 1/4x 3/8 and back buttered with 3/16" v notch. Maybe I'm ass backwards... :shifty:


I use a 3/8 x3/8 for most floor tiles up to 12x12, and go to a 1/2x1/2 for anything larger.


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

jarvis design said:


> I use a 3/8 x3/8 for most floor tiles up to 12x12, and go to a 1/2x1/2 for anything larger.


Never seen a 3/8x3/8. Where do you get those at, sounds interesting. I use the 1/2x1/2 a lot, and even 3/4 u-notch for larger tile (20" and up).


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

HS345 said:


> Never seen a 3/8x3/8. Where do you get those at, sounds interesting. I use the 1/2x1/2 a lot, and even 3/4 u-notch for larger tile (20" and up).


My tile materials supplier has the 3/8".
I have thought of getting a 3/4"...next really large format floor, I'll try it out!


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## kcbasements (Feb 5, 2010)

Nobody really seems to know if this will cause problems. I installed some tile at my rental last week. I used this method and I really like it. I didn't pull one tile after it dropped and the floor was flat. 

Do I have to wait 20 years to see if this is a bad idea?:blink: We need mythbusters.


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

kcbasements said:


> Nobody really seems to know if this will cause problems. I installed some tile at my rental last week. I used this method and I really like it. I didn't pull one tile after it dropped and the floor was flat.
> 
> Do I have to wait 20 years to see if this is a bad idea?:blink: We need mythbusters.


You still haven't told us what size notch, or what type of mortar.


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## kcbasements (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm not sure what my guy is using, but this is my setup...


1/4 x 1/4 x 3/8 Trowel


Thin Set... Versabond White


18" Tile


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

kcbasements said:


> I'm not sure what my guy is using, but this is my setup...
> 
> 
> 1/4 x 1/4 x 3/8 Trowel
> ...


You should be fine. Custom lists a 3/4" × 9/16" × 3/8" trowel in the Technical Data Sheet as being suitable. 

I have built up considerably with Versabond many times, and never had a problem.


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## TechsRuler (Apr 14, 2011)

*Tile Bonding info and techniqueS*

First off I have been professionally installing tile for ten years now and have set countless amounts of tile in that time and although experience alone does not make a good installer I know I have a pretty good practical knowledge so far although I'm always trying to learn and expand my knowledge.
I have tried many different methods of bonding tile to a substrate. A few things to consider are:
1. Use polymer modified thinset (unless dealing with some shluter product because they won't warranty otherwise...at the moment...)
Unmodified can be used on concrete to save some cost but personally I use modified whenever I can because it's the best insurance of bond strength in most cases. There are many types but generally you get what you pay for when it comes to quality, so just read the bag labels to get general idea of what to buy because there are quite a few different suppliers. (my preference is either mapei* or custom*)

2. I have found using 1/4,1/4,3/8 trowel is most cost efficient when setting 8"-16" tiles. If they are larger then that I tend to use 1/2"x1/2" sizes. 
When it comes to anything smaller tiles you start getting into a lot of variables on trowel size depending on thickness of tile, flatness of substrate, floor or wall application, ect ect. If on a floor, the smallest size I would normally would be 1/4"x1/4 when using 8" or smaller tiles. If on the wall using small sized tiles it can be 1/4" square, V, U, or in some cases a 3/16" V, or square notch.

3. Now when it comes to bonding techniques there are "many ways to skin a cat" when using modified thin set. Most manufactures in the tile industry will say that you should sweep,wash,and lick your substrate clean before setting any tile on it and then should notch the floor and flattrowel the tile or vise-versa. Well I'll tell you right now that if I was a tile manufacturer I would say the same thing to cover my kiester too. Obviously doing all these steps will ensure the best bond humanly possible and on some occations i have felt it necessary follow these directions to the letter but the question is "is it always necessary?" my short answer is in most cases no. Although obviously I will explain my short answer hehheh. (these are my methods, and that of my original installations trainers of which I had 3 journeymen)
First this is to make sure the substrate is strong enough not to be flexing because I don't care what method someone uses, if the floor flexes regularly, you will most likely have issues so check what recommended strength code is from thinset manufacturers. Most cases I would want at least 1"1/4" over 16" inch centers but would prefer 1"1/2" if possible. There are variables so don't go on these numbers alone. 
Next, make sure floor is clean before trowling on thin set and any major messes are scraped/washed from substrate. Big thing to remember is not to let thinset sit long before actually placing tiles on it, I can not stress this point enough. It doesn't matter how clean the floor or how amazing the thinset, if it "skins over" from sitting to long the tile will not bond correctly. This is a main reason why I always suggest having all cuts done before actually placing tiles in a given area(if possible). 
Most bonding problems that i have seen installers have is due to either an unclean substrate or dried out thinset prior to installation. 
As far as combing the floor and flat troweling the tile or vise-versa, I have found the either or works great, again as long at you don't let the notched area dry out. Personally, depending on the ammount of room I am confined to I will switch between these two techniques. Most of the time in open areas using all standard ceramic/porcelain tiles I just comb the floor and dont bother with flat troweling the tile, and in cases where I'm working in an area that is small and inefficient for floor troweling I just comb the tile instead although in some cases I will flat trowel floor first when using tile combing technique. Again I have been doing these techniques for ten years and 10's of thousands of sqft of tile and would call it safe to say that I have had a bonding success rate of probably 95% or more. I honestly can't remember that last time I had a negative call back ln regards to a faulty bonding issue so I would say these techniques are pretty safe. 
Also, I have been assured by mapei reps "off the record of course" that these techniques are safe to use in most standard setting situations. 
Anyway, these are the main things to consider when dealing with tile bonding in my humble opinion. I am always happy to hear opinions for or against my techniques as long as I can get a decent explanation as to why I should change it. Thanks for reading and blessings to all.


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## algernon (Dec 31, 2008)

TechsRuler said:


> I have had a bonding success rate of probably 95% or more.


Does this mean 5% of tiles you lay don't bond correctly?
I went to the much maligned Schluter Course in Vancouver a few years ago, and they told everybody that back-buttering (or burning or keying in) every tile is the only way to ensure full coverage. It takes me a little longer, but I have never had a bonding issue since I learned that. In fact, the only loose tile(s) that I know of are at my Dad's. 
I did that floor with him, about 5 years ago, and we were pushing to get done (I think he went and grouted that evening, but I don't know for sure, as it's a touchy subject, LOL). We were not burning tiles, lots of dust around, and we didn't let the mud slake up. Basically, it was a cluster**** of poor tiling practice. I then did my own kitchen about a month later. It was completely free of dust, used a plywood ad-mix, and followed the bag's instruction to a "T", with no problems.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Notching BOTH will make for trapped air pockets.


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## TechsRuler (Apr 14, 2011)

algernon said:


> Does this mean 5% of tiles you lay don't bond correctly?
> I went to the much maligned Schluter Course in Vancouver a few years ago, and they told everybody that back-buttering (or burning or keying in) every tile is the only way to ensure full coverage. It takes me a little longer, but I have never had a bonding issue since I learned that. In fact, the only loose tile(s) that I know of are at my Dad's.
> I did that floor with him, about 5 years ago, and we were pushing to get done (I think he went and grouted that evening, but I don't know for sure, as it's a touchy subject, LOL). We were not burning tiles, lots of dust around, and we didn't let the mud slake up. Basically, it was a cluster**** of poor tiling practice. I then did my own kitchen about a month later. It was completely free of dust, used a plywood ad-mix, and followed the bag's instruction to a "T", with no problems.


Well first off my apology for using poor terminology about the amount of bond failures when using my techniques. Lol, It was almost 2am when I wrote that big spiel in my post. It would have been more accurate just to say that in reality I can count on one hand the amount of times I've had a bonding issue using the techniques that I posted and to be quite honest, in most of those cases, I could argue it was more of a deflection issue and not a bond coverage issue but all in all it would still be my responsibility because it's our job as installer to inspect the substrate for strength And faulty deflection issues before installing anything. 
I guess now that I think of the kind of numbers I've installed and the few times I've had bonding issues the "percentage" would be more like 99.99% success rate on bond lol although in my defense I was trying to be conservative and when I said "95% or better", but I digress. 
Lastly, like I said in my previous post, I totally agree with the fact that if you comb the floor and flat trowel the tiles you will get a stronger bond. That's only logical. The thing is that I know for a fact that it is not necessary in most cases of standard installation and further more from a "building code" standpoint, 100% bond to every tile obviously is not expected( I believe it is about 80-85%). If that were the case, and I would mind if it was, jobs would take waayyy longer on average therefore prices would go up on installation across the board which I know most builders and other private clients don't want if it's not necessary. 
Lastly, when it comes to "schluter systems" practices and techniques, although trustworthy in most cases I take them with a grain of salt. They want the best job possible I'm sure but more important and the trumping card is that they want to sell product and in order to make the most money possible they would tell you to use gold infused mortar at 1000$ a bag if they could somehow explain that it was the best way to install something. 
One main exams is they water proofing systems that are used now days. Long before I was tiling guys were using non polyer modified thin set on those types of installs and apparently if done correctly they worked. Then along came the polymer revolution in the industry and although of course it was more money, we were expected to use polymer modified on all waterproof installs. Now some companies ie schluter systems say that "oh uh actually it has to be non modified or it won't cure correctly...well kind of...um if you use modified it will work but will take way longer to cure". Then other company reps I talk to say that's a load of garbage and that we should keep using modified. Flip flop flip flop the money game plays a part I'm sure because polymer thinsets are obviously more then non modified thinsets. 
My attitude is to just follow the specs that will assure me a warranty and if I disagree enough to not follow the specs, I would always take responsibility if something went wrong on a job of mine.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Wow, longest.....post.....ever!!


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## TechsRuler (Apr 14, 2011)

Lol sorry guys


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Haha, I was just messing with ya!!
Ever considered a career in politics?


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## TechsRuler (Apr 14, 2011)

Hahaha...is that bad ? Jjking


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## HandyHails (Feb 28, 2009)

What's a medicine hat?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

HandyHails said:


> What's a medicine hat?


Duh...


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

You backburners can go along your merry way, but I'll continue to key in the mortar on the floors and then comb it and set the tile without back burning.

Sometimes I'll set a tile wrong and have to lift it up, and I'm getting 100% coverage.

Although I've yet to set one upside down...

However, when I comb the tile and not the floor, I like to burn the tile, then comb it. Same as I do the floor, but I think it's even more important when doing the tile.

There are other factors to consider. I think temperature is important. And I follow the mixing instructions closely and actually time everything. If I lay on a slab or durock, I will wet it slightly or mix the thinset looser than I would when setting on densshield.

These things are pretty basic. You wouldn't want to pick up a dark colored brick which has been sitting in the hot sun and try to lay it with some crumbly mortar, and the same intuition holds true for setting tile.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

TCNA requires all porcelain to be back buttered. Just sayin.


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## bazemk1979 (May 20, 2009)

angus242 said:


> TCNA requires all porcelain to be back buttered. Just sayin.


Angus if something work and you san do it faster,why should you change it?

I have never backbutter porcelain,got only one thing to say,go back after a month and try to pull out one tile see how easy it is.

Backbutter is a myth,but I only do it on crappy travertine,and not backbuttering with 1/16 or an 1/8" trowel,I'm talking just a flat skim of thin set on it.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

You know, the typical new construction install is wire mesh, fill it with cement, lay the tile, no back buttering the tile. 

I hear " been doing it this way, why change ". ?

Number one reason is that is an illegal install, does not meet building code.

But more importantly, it sucks. I've pulled up tons of this type of install. And guess what - they come up easy. I just use a wide masons' chisel, and they pop right up.

I'll keep back buttering thanks.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

bazemk1979 said:


> Backbutter is a myth




If the TCNA says it recommends that porcelain tile should be buttered to help achieve 94% coverage, who am I (or you) to call BS? This organization does hours and hours of testing that none of us can match alone. They are not out to sell any one product. They spend the man hours to find methods that help the tile industry achieve the best results possible. 

Personally, I butter almost every tile I set. You can say what you want but I know my installations are adhered. I'm not looking for fast. I'm looking for long term.


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## TechsRuler (Apr 14, 2011)

cleveman said:


> You backburners can go along your merry way, but I'll continue to key in the mortar on the floors and then comb it and set the tile without back burning.
> 
> Sometimes I'll set a tile wrong and have to lift it up, and I'm getting 100% coverage.
> 
> ...


Amen brother! Preach it! So true


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

What a load of


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## TechsRuler (Apr 14, 2011)

Well I'm happy if you happy. Like any good installer knows, floor combing and backburning is the best bond strength you can get and if there are those that feel they need to do that on every job then guess what? Fill your boots! Bottom line is that if you are an installer working as a sub contracting retail store and you do that on a big job. You will go over your Allotted time and if you keep letting that happen it will be bye bye retail work. Although this is may not be the fair, it's a reality for most of us who install retail. 
A mans gotta eat and so do his wife and kids so if anybody can make a living doing a floor comb/backburn technique on every single tile they lay then shiver git but as for me I'll keep using my techniques as posted until they start failing, which ain't gonna happen and that's a warranteeeeeed statement for anyone who lives around these parts. (Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada, )
And just for the record I don't mean any offense to those who have and want to take the time to do a perfect bond technique on every tile. You can install my house anytime as long as the lines are straight because I don't care how long it takes lol.


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