# Breeching a contract with a builder



## jpape1224 (Feb 21, 2015)

This is my first time posting on CT, but I've always found this forum very helpful in beginning my business. Anyways, I recently became licensed contractor in Portland Oregon at the beginning of the year. So far I've done pretty well working for homeowners, not making tons of money but keeping my customers happy and I truly love what I do. My specialty is finish carpentry and cabinet making, which is also what I've done for the last ten years working for different remodel companies. Now I've got my license and of course my first real problem.

So in trying to gain some more steady business, I responded to a builder who was looking to have a several houses trimmed out. I of course was excited for the potential business so sent him back an estimate on the plans he gave me. In his description, he described what he was looking for as "just hanging some doors with some base and case." So i made an estimate assuming that and I signed a contract before even seeing the house!!! This in its self is the dumbest thing I've done in business so far I will admit. After seeing the project I knew I was in over my head. 3500 sq ft of base molding, craftsman style columns, a fireplace mantle, 5 piece window casings all for $2550!!! 

So I clearly stepped all over myself on this one, I did not get any money down and I have no way of hiring anyone at this point to help get it done in the 4 days allotted for the project. I contacted the builder, saying that I cannot complete the project and I want out of the contract. I told him it wasn't about the money (I understand not making money is part of the risk with this business) I just know that I cannot deliver on my contract. I of course receive threats of legal action and that I am destroying their schedule.

I feel terrible to be in this position, I do not want to be that flaky contractor none of want to be, but I cannot finish this project. What should I do? Should I be afraid of being sued? At most the builder lost 4 days off his schedule but am I on the hook for any cost with that?

Thanks for reading my ramblings, any guidance I could get on this matter would be greatly appreciated


----------



## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

> so sent him back an estimate on the plans he gave me. In his description, he described what he was looking for as "just hanging some doors with some base and case.


Was there a set of plans or just this guy saying "just hanging some doors with some base and case????



> So i made an estimate assuming that and I signed a contract before even seeing the house!!!


Why?



> 3500 sq ft of base molding, craftsman style columns, a fireplace mantle, 5 piece window casings all for $2550!!!


Labor and Material or just LABOR?



> but I cannot finish this project.


Have you started? Something here isn't adding up.


----------



## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

How you gave a price based on "hang some doors and some base" its beyond me.

First of all do you have a signed contract with both signatures that you will do this and that in so many days?

If yes, a contract is a contract, and depends if he gonna take this allaway as a breach, it can cost his whole trim job what ever the next guy is gonna charge him. So if your price was 2500 and the next guys price is 3500 you can be on the hook for a grand not to mention the loss time off his schedule etc, but that would have to be proved on the amount.

To put this simply, if this goes to court you would have to make him whole. 

Good luck I hope it works out.


----------



## jpape1224 (Feb 21, 2015)

The bid was for labor only based off of the set of plans i was given. Not a lot of details were the included I agree that giving a number without 1) looking at the job in person and 2) speaking to the project manager and not the the office guy, was just plain dumb on my end.

There is nothing signed saying that it would be done by a certain time, however it was told to me in person that they'd like to have it done within 5 days. 

I worked one on the project already.

It is sounding like you guys are confirming my fear that is will be on the hook for cost of delay and finding another contractor if they choose to pursue it. I was really hoping to be able to walk away from this without totally screwing myself over and to learn from the experience.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

If there's nothing in the contract about a finish date, keep working. They don't have any reason to harass you about it. If they simply say, "I'd like it done in 5 days," simply reply "I'd like another $5,000."


----------



## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If there's nothing in the contract about a finish date, keep working. They don't have any reason to harass you about it.


Bang :thumbsup:

And if there is a date specified there is nothing saying you can't approach them to say you WILL finish but just not in the original time frame.


----------



## Alan M (Jan 18, 2015)

I assume the plan you priced off of match's reality and that you knew what was required. 
if it is your screwed if you walk away . 
if its not then you have grounds because there side of the contract is different. 

if its only the time frame that is the issue then talk to them. explain that you don't want to delay the project but you will get it done in the shortest time possible


----------



## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Is the contract even valid in your state without a start and finish date?

Is there specs in your contract? X amount of doors, X feet of base, X amount of columns and mantles with drawings of the details?

If not, the contract may not even be valid.


----------



## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

jpape1224 said:


> The bid was for labor only based off of the set of plans i was given. Not a lot of details were the included I agree that giving a number without 1) looking at the job in person and 2) speaking to the project manager and not the the office guy, was just plain dumb on my end.
> 
> There is nothing signed saying that it would be done by a certain time, however it was told to me in person that they'd like to have it done within 5 days.
> 
> ...



How would you "learn from the experience" if you were able to bail out without consequences. You have been in the trades for ten years. When you started your business, you had to know better than to just assume things.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Creter said:


> Bang :thumbsup:
> 
> And if there is a date specified there is nothing saying you can't approach them to say you WILL finish but just not in the original time frame.


If there is a specified date in the contract, it typically is followed by the Penalty or Failure to Perform Clause.


----------



## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

I thunk you need to stop trying to run a business. You have no idea what you're doing.


----------



## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

If you haven't done any work there yet, then don't start. Just walk. Don't be stupid in the future.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Is there a start date on the contract? If not tell him you can't get to it for another 5 years.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I'll bet he's bluffing on the court thing.


----------



## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Damn guys, he has been in business for ten years, he is bound to make a mistake now and then as we all are. I know I have made mistakes.

Andy.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Damn guys, he has been in business for ten years, he is bound to make a mistake now and then as we all are. I know I have made mistakes.
> 
> Andy.


He has been doing the work for 10 years only been in business for 1


----------



## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

jpape1224 said:


> So in trying to gain some more steady business, I responded to a builder who was looking to have a several houses trimmed out. I of course was excited for the potential business so sent him back an estimate on the plans he gave me. In his description, he described what he was looking for as "just hanging some doors with some base and case." So i made an estimate assuming that and I signed a contract before even seeing the house!!! This in its self is the dumbest thing I've done in business so far I will admit. After seeing the project I knew I was in over my head. 3500 sq ft of base molding, craftsman style columns, a fireplace mantle, 5 piece window casings all for $2550!!!


what? did you guys meet on craigs list?

he saw you coming two miles away hook line and sinker sucker

by the way if your looking for work and work that cheap $2550.00 did you miss a zero in there I'll hire you just can't be a hack. Ok? My trim guy's contract price on a 600 sq ft one bedroom condo was $1900.00 plus extras only materials he supplied was labor glue nails and shims remember no hacks please


----------



## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

jpape1224 said:


> This is my first time posting on CT, but I've always found this forum very helpful in beginning my business. Anyways, I recently became licensed contractor in Portland Oregon at the beginning of the year. So far I've done pretty well working for homeowners, not making tons of money but keeping my customers happy and I truly love what I do. My specialty is finish carpentry and cabinet making, which is also what I've done for the last ten years working for different remodel companies. Now I've got my license and of course my first real problem.
> 
> So in trying to gain some more steady business, I responded to a builder who was looking to have a several houses trimmed out. I of course was excited for the potential business so sent him back an estimate on the plans he gave me. In his description, he described what he was looking for as "just hanging some doors with some base and case." So i made an estimate assuming that and I signed a contract before even seeing the house!!! This in its self is the dumbest thing I've done in business so far I will admit. After seeing the project I knew I was in over my head. 3500 sq ft of base molding, craftsman style columns, a fireplace mantle, 5 piece window casings all for $2550!!!
> 
> ...


If you did not take any money then I would not worry. Send the contractor an apology for making the mistake and ask if he wants to re-negotiate. In your situation the contractor should understand and if he doesn't then he is not the type of contractor you want to work for, anyway. I hardly doubt he will try to force you to complete the job. If you took money then send it back. 

Contractors don't usually sue contractors for walking off jobs unless a lot of harm was done. Most contractors are just going to call someone else and they don't have the time to take you to court because they don't stand much of a chance to gain anything. It costs money and time to go to court and he will have to go to court no less than 3 to 5 times to get a judgment and even after he gets a judgment there is little to no chance that he can squeeze one penny from you.


----------



## jpape1224 (Feb 21, 2015)

Thanks to all of you for the replies, most of you have been very helpful.

To clarify, there was no official start date and no completion date. It was a spoken agreement. For that reason it would probably be the safest move to go back to work until it gets done, even if it takes me a month, and hope that the builder in fact pays me and is not impossible to work with at this point. That being said, I felt like it would the responsible thing to let the builder know now that I will not be able to be anywhere close to the timeline they’d like to meet so they can find a different contractor who can. 

Also, I never claimed to be a great businessman, I am however a really good carpenter. I am trying my best to follow the laws and not be in situations like this. That is why I am here. I am 27 years old, I only been in business for 6 months and generally I am very cautious when it comes to the bidding process. Typically I error on the side of charging more and not getting a contract rather than committing myself to money losing deals. Every customer I’ve worked with been very pleased with my work and I get referrals often from them. However, this time I did not approach things the way I know I should. I sold my work way too cheap in order to get the job. The thought of having a solid builder with dozens of projects was a very promising lead and I trusted too much that everything would work out. 

Anyways thought I would defend myself a little, this deal did blow up in my face, but I am in no way a hack or unable to do business.

-Jon


----------



## jpape1224 (Feb 21, 2015)

pcplumber said:


> If you did not take any money then I would not worry. Send the contractor an apology for making the mistake and ask if he wants to re-negotiate. In your situation the contractor should understand and if he doesn't then he is not the type of contractor you want to work for, anyway. I hardly doubt he will try to force you to complete the job. If you took money then send it back.
> 
> Contractors don't usually sue contractors for walking off jobs unless a lot of harm was done. Most contractors are just going to call someone else and they don't have the time to take you to court because they don't stand much of a chance to gain anything. It costs money and time to go to court and he will have to go to court no less than 3 to 5 times to get a judgment and even after he gets a judgment there is little to no chance that he can squeeze one penny from you.



Thanks for that pcplumber, I did not take any money down (another thing I never like to do) and you are probably right that its not worth there time to pursue it. I contacted the builder and told him that I could not complete the job and that I was very sorry for the mistake. His next move was to tell me how much I was screwing up there schedule and he'll have to take legal action if I do not complete it. So with that, I made my decision that they were not the type of people I'd like to work with


----------



## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

jpape1224 said:


> I couldn't agree with you more, especially the glutton for punishment part:bangin: I assumed even with a lot of the negative feedback, I would get some good information from other people who want to give some constructive advice and not just throw s#@% at others they do not know. And yes the written portion is for the work required, the timeline was said to me in person, not in writing.
> 
> A part of me would consider “nutting up” and finishing the job. However it's not the thought of losing some money, it's the fact that the GC showed his teeth so quickly only leads me to believe that things would only get worse. Grinding it out by myself for the next 3 weeks to a month for a GC that will never use me again, nor would he recommend to the other bottom-feeding builders in my area because I took too long does not seem like a smart move at all.
> 
> ...


I think you need to stand up to this GC and list (in writing) all the things that were not spelled out clearly in the proposal given to you, plus, all the extra things he wants done. This is all change order stuff...no kidding. Even if things are "up to interpretation" ....it's your interpretation, not his. 

I would list it all out, think about what you would normally charge, then double it. Give it to him in writing along with a part that says: *Unless these issues can be resolved to my satisfaction, all work will cease. If no agreement is reached within X number of days, then immediate payment of X is due for all work performed to this date (today's date).* 

I would give it to him, watch him explode, and, running around cursing and threatening and so forth. You need to be the professional and start wearing the "big boy" pants...........This GC sounds like a pro at being a lowballer (as far as paying subs), bottom feeding jerk.....which is how he makes his money. 

I would say, based on what has been stated in your post, stand your ground and cut your losses.


----------



## jpape1224 (Feb 21, 2015)

cwatbay said:


> I think you need to stand up to this GC and list (in writing) all the things that were not spelled out clearly in the proposal given to you, plus, all the extra things he wants done. This is all change order stuff...no kidding. Even if things are "up to interpretation" ....it's your interpretation, not his.
> 
> I would list it all out, think about what you would normally charge, then double it. Give it to him in writing along with a part that says: *Unless these issues can be resolved to my satisfaction, all work will cease. If no agreement is reached within X number of days, then immediate payment of X is due for all work performed to this date (today's date).*
> 
> ...


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Perfectly said. I will get something to him in writing stating all of those things.


----------



## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

As was mentioned, all that stuff is change order material. There is nothing, in and of itself, unethical about change orders. I use them all the time. Some people abuse them, but that doesn't diminish their viability.

As far as getting paid, make sure you get progress checks, or stop work IMMEDIATELY. Unfortunately, if your contract is not up to State requirements, you may have lost the ability to file a Mechanics Lien.

There are certainly GC's out there who just go from one lowballing sub to the next, putting one-man shows out of business along the way. Protect yourself legally, but if he is one of those, no amount of bending over backward for him is going to do you any good, because as soon as you bid a job to make money, he won't hire you.




Delta


----------



## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

I don't see the problem here, you have a contract with a scope of work. You can finish scope of work in allotted time? If yes you are good. I would never bid a job to do doors and baseboards and then agree to do 2x as much work for the same money and still stick to the time frame. Guy probably has you figured out already and is going to run you ragged for as little as possible if you have already shown weakness. Do the job for him after you sign a new contract with updated scope of work and adjusted timeline.


----------



## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

jpape1224 said:


> I couldn't agree with you more, especially the glutton for punishment part:bangin: I assumed even with a lot of the negative feedback, I would get some good information from other people who want to give some constructive advice and not just throw s#@% at others they do not know. And yes the written portion is for the work required, the timeline was said to me in person, not in writing.
> 
> .



here is some more negative feedback

you need as much as you can get

the kicker is every year tom dick and harry come out of the wood work thinking they can be a contractor or a competent business person and unfortunately they suck, in the meantime they lowball prices get in over their head and people like me try to compete with these screwballs by offering a time line, quality work, and management skills needed to be successful. 

I'm over it. it's to the point that people like yourself really need to step back and analyze things before jumping headfirst into an empty swimming pool. It's not necessarily your fault that the average consumer is looking for the lowest price possible instead of competency. Thats just the world we live in today. Good luck.


----------



## Rhode Island (Mar 24, 2015)

Stop worrying about backing out. Tell the builder you want to finish this project and hope he can accept a small overrun on time.

As for the money side that will be your lesson. You need to see everything first. In all honestly what's so overwhelming with baseboard, casing, and a mantle?


----------



## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

We always say, "the blade cuts in both directions."

The carpenter and the contractor both made huge mistakes and both should be willing to make the deal favorable for each other. Neither party should take advantage of the other due to mistakes.

I am currently installing a 4 inch double check assembly fire line valve. The general gave me a set of blueprints and I bid the job for $18,000. Then, at the pre-construction meeting with the water department inspector the general hands me the submittals that were submitted by another company and the inspector tells me that I will have to install additional piping, valves, perform tests and paint the pipes with several coats of Epoxy paint and the extras will cost me $3,000 for materials and cost me another two weeks of work. The general immediately tells me to add every extra cost for materials, labor and profit to the contract and that is how all parties should transact business.

Personally, I would never allow a sub to work for me and lose money because I could not live with myself even if the sub is an idiot.

I say that both parties are responsible to each other and the carpenter has the right to walk from the job. Especially, if the contract is only verbal. I've quoted many jobs over the phone and then arrived on the job to find out that the owners failed to tell me about 90% of the work.

You break the job down with the cost of materials and a commensurable hourly rate that includes profit and overhead. Give the breakdown to the contractor and tell him that the decision is his. If he looks you in the eye and tells you that he wants you to do the job at a loss then you know where to tell him to stick your original agreement. 

I have almost 50 years of experience and I will walk from a job, before I start the job, when I know I made a grave mistake. I gave an estimate to install new water piping for a home and I thought the home had only one bathroom. After giving the estimate I realized that I forgot to ask if there was more than one bathroom in the home and found out that there was three bathrooms. I told the customer that I missed the two bathrooms. The customer didn't want to pay the extra for the two bathrooms and I walked from the job. It happens to everyone and neither party should take advantage of the other due to innocent mistakes.

I had a swimming pool built at my home 35 years ago. The contractor quoted me a price of $23,000 to build the pool. By the end of the job the cost was $35,000. The contractor showed me his original calculations where he made an $8,000 mistake for the concrete and I paid him the $8,000 without arguing. If I didn't pay the extra for the concrete I would feel like a thief and the same should be true for the contractor who wants wood molding installed for less than the fair value. To get molding for free because someone made a mistake is not Christian-like and it is stealing.


----------



## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

Thanks PC Plumber 

you provided a few good examples, in this business we are in, 50% of the people don't have a clue what they are doing, they are out to get "rich," create the lowest level of product they can, and screw as many people over as possible. These fly by nighters are here today and gone tomorrow

This poor trim guy seems to hooked up with a fly by night contractor who cares little about his business or delivering a quality product, or even building a business for the future. In return anyone who is honest and cares about what they do, is bulldozed by low balling builders who think they are going to make tons of money. The only way they do that is by ripping subs off and delivering a sub par product to the customer.

I guess it's just me who is angry and bent out of shape, I used to not give two hoots about the "other guy" or competition, but I'm now having a really hard time landing jobs and competing with everyone who is "back in the business" now that things are rolling again. My prices cannot compete with someone who is looking to just make wages.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

fast fred said:


> ......... My prices cannot compete with someone who is looking to just make wages.



Q: How does Macy's compete with K-Mart?


A: They _don't_.




Don't treat the bottom-feeders, low-ballers and such as your competition because, well, in reality they're NOT. Don't compete with them, differentiate yourself. Distance yourself from them and things will be much easier.

If you're always running into them, then you're not targeting the customers you want properly. If your advertising is bringing you a steady stream of tire-tickers and wanna-be CGs, you need to change your marketing strategy.


----------

