# Osha Fines - Who pays General or Sub



## llpcas

At a residential job site if an Osha inspector sees a sub doing something that is not in compliance, who will get fined? The subcontractor who is doing the unsafe job which the Osha inpsector sees? Or the General Contractor of the job? Or both?

Has to do with a mason and scaffolding.


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## BKFranks

The general, the sub, or both may be fined.

Read this: http://www.clausen.com/index.cfm/fa...A_Ruling_Curtails_General_Contractor_Risk.cfm

and this:
http://ehstoday.com/construction/news/eighth-circuit-osha-case-7981/


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## Kent Whitten

Sounds like mebbe you like the GC but don't like the mason?


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## festerized

Everyone including the land owner gets a fine


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## bwalley

llpcas said:


> At a residential job site if an Osha inspector sees a sub doing something that is not in compliance, who will get fined? The subcontractor who is doing the unsafe job which the Osha inpsector sees? Or the General Contractor of the job? Or both?
> 
> Has to do with a mason and scaffolding.


The General Contractor, the Sub Contractor and even the employees who are in violation.


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## NJ Brickie

bwalley said:


> The General Contractor, the Sub Contractor and even the employees who are in violation.


:no: Employees are not fined by OSHA.
In your case the Sub will most likely get a fine. The GC may or may not get a fine. If the GC can show documentation that they have a safety plan in place and what the sub was doing was in violation of their plan they may not get fined. But they still can.


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## buildenterprise

Let me guess, they've got 30' of staging set up with no bracing to the house? Plywood shims under the feet too, right? Sounds like the masons down here.....




llpcas said:


> At a residential job site if an Osha inspector sees a sub doing something that is not in compliance, who will get fined? The subcontractor who is doing the unsafe job which the Osha inpsector sees? Or the General Contractor of the job? Or both?
> 
> Has to do with a mason and scaffolding.


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## JumboJack

In all of my years of doing residential remodeling (and quite a few commercial TI's) I have never seen an OSHA inspector on a job.....Ever.


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## Warren

JumboJack said:


> In all of my years of doing residential remodeling (and quite a few commercial TI's) I have never seen an OSHA inspector on a job.....Ever.


Did you have your fingers crossed when you typed that? I concur, but would never say it out loud.


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## buildenterprise

Warren said:


> Did you have your fingers crossed when you typed that? I concur, but would never say it out loud.


I'll third that, knocking on wood with fingers crossed....


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## JumboJack

Warren said:


> Did you have your fingers crossed when you typed that? I concur, but would never say it out loud.


It's bad luck to be superstitious....:whistling


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## rjconstructs

Osha can always fine the contractor after an accident. I have seen them on the news then, dishing out fines for everything. Never seen one on a job.


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## bwalley

NJ Brickie said:


> :no: Employees are not fined by OSHA.
> In your case the Sub will most likely get a fine. The GC may or may not get a fine. If the GC can show documentation that they have a safety plan in place and what the sub was doing was in violation of their plan they may not get fined. But they still can.


OSHA can and does fine employees.


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## NJ Brickie

bwalley said:


> OSHA can and does fine employees.


Unless you can direct me where this information is available I am sticking with no they do not fine employees. They can fine _employers_ on a per employee basis. If 15 people are not wearing PPE the contractor may receive 15 citations.


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## SMA14

OSHA makes thier own rules. You ever try to read the stuff online it actully has a bottom part that says how you should actually interpret what was written at the top. They can fine whomever they want. If you read about it they can fine your company even if it is a subcontractor. They have some 10 or 20 point question that decides if the person is really a subcontractor...even though your insurance company and the government accepts it. They have their own rules. 

Long story short they went on one of our subs jobs. Told them it was just a warning...by the time it got back over to the office it turned into a citation. The person subbing from us happened to have the same last name as us so they assumed that they were business owners. We showed all documents to prove other wise. They did'nt care still said it was an owner in some way. Had to hire an attorney. After a year and a half of fighting back and forth and $12,000 later they finally agreed it was a sub that worked for us. It was a nightmare. God Bless anyone whoever has to deal with them. I do not wish my worst enemy to have to go through that. WELL maybe a few of my competitors...LOL.


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## Kent Whitten

I've never heard of any employees being fined. Not saying it can't be, I have just never heard of this. I'd like to see the the documentation on this if anyone has a link.


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## Framer53

framerman said:


> I've never heard of any employees being fined. Not saying it can't be, I have just never heard of this. I'd like to see the the documentation on this if anyone has a link.



afetyNewsAlert.com » Now OSHA can issue fines for each worker without PPE <script language=JavaScript src="http://rotator.adjuggler.com/servlet/ajrotator/859728/0/vj?z=pbp&dim=328467&kw=&click=&abr=$scriptiniframe"></script><noscript><a href="http://rotator.adjuggler.com/servlet/ajrotator/859728/0/cc?z=pbp"><img src="http://rotator.adjuggler.com/servlet/ajrotator/859728/0/vc?z=pbp&dim=328467&kw=&click=&abr=$imginiframe" width="468" height="60" border="0"></a></noscript> 
*Now OSHA can issue fines for each worker without PPE*

 *Related Stories*



How does OSHA classify a serious violation?
Barab: Current fines not enough of a disincentive
Groups file lawsuit against per-employee citation policy
House Democrats reintroduce bill to strengthen OSHA
Tougher penalties: Safety incentive or government interference?
 
December 19, 2008 by Fred Hosier​ *Posted in: In this week's e-newsletter, Latest News & Views, OSHA news, PPE (protective equipment), Safety training*


http://www.safetynewsalert.com/now-osha-can-issue-fines-for-each-worker-without-ppe/

Had to look it up myself!


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## NJ Brickie

Framer53 said:


> afetyNewsAlert.com » Now OSHA can issue fines for each worker without PPE <script language=JavaScript src="http://rotator.adjuggler.com/servlet/ajrotator/859728/0/vj?z=pbp&dim=328467&kw=&click=&abr=$scriptiniframe"></script><noscript><a href="http://rotator.adjuggler.com/servlet/ajrotator/859728/0/cc?z=pbp"><img src="http://rotator.adjuggler.com/servlet/ajrotator/859728/0/vc?z=pbp&dim=328467&kw=&click=&abr=$imginiframe" width="468" height="60" border="0"></a></noscript>
> *Now OSHA can issue fines for each worker without PPE*
> 
> *Related Stories*
> 
> 
> 
> How does OSHA classify a serious violation?
> Barab: Current fines not enough of a disincentive
> Groups file lawsuit against per-employee citation policy
> House Democrats reintroduce bill to strengthen OSHA
> Tougher penalties: Safety incentive or government interference?
> 
> December 19, 2008 by Fred Hosier​ *Posted in: In this week's e-newsletter, Latest News & Views, OSHA news, PPE (protective equipment), Safety training*
> 
> 
> http://www.safetynewsalert.com/now-osha-can-issue-fines-for-each-worker-without-ppe/
> 
> Had to look it up myself!



Those fines still goto the company. I have had OSHA training and have been told that employees can not be fined. Like framerman said, I would like a link to this documentation. I could be wrong, but I do not think that it exists.


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## oldfrt

NJ Brickie said:


> Those fines still goto the company. I have had OSHA training and have been told that employees can not be fined. Like framerman said, I would like a link to this documentation. I could be wrong, but I do not think that it exists.


 From what I learned in the few months I did commercial work this past winter,the GC is responsible,and it is up to PM to see that the subs are compliant.


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## Anti-wingnut

bwalley said:


> OSHA can and does fine employees.





NJ Brickie said:


> Unless you can direct me where this information is available I am sticking with no they do not fine employees. They can fine _employers_ on a per employee basis. If 15 people are not wearing PPE the contractor may receive 15 citations.


We may be waiting a while. Big Walley often makes claims that he cannot back up with references.


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## Anti-wingnut

NJ Brickie said:


> There are states that enforce their own worker safety rules. My state being one of them, Florida is not. The state has to apply to OSHA to be allowed to govern themselves. After it is established that the state has a acceptable program in place the state takes over control. The state ran programs follow federal OSHA standards and they usually add their own rules that exceed federal OSHA standards.
> 
> Like I said before OSHA does not fine employees as stated to me during OSHA training by the instructor.


Stated perfectly




NJ Brickie said:


> Walley I am going to have to say that you do not know much about OSHA


Understatement of the day



bwalley said:


> Blah blah blah, ask Mark Leon. He doesn't work for OSHA, blah blah blah. I don't know why everyone disagree's with me, all the facts indicate that I am all wrong. I'm not going to bother trying to confirm anything, I'll just keep beating this drum about Mark Leon, who doesn't even work for OSHA, blah blah blah. I think I heard somebody say something, and I am going to stick to what I misunderstood


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## frankster

Anti-wingnut said:


> Frank,
> 
> I was merely speaking in jest. Making everybody responsible such as that sounds like a very good idea, if implemented correctly


 

Oh yeah, I know. I was just going through the scenerio. Hope it did not come off wrong.


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## JumboJack

Framer53 said:


> From OSHA's own site:
> 
> *Worker Responsibilities*
> 
> Although OSHA does not cite employees for violations, the OSH Act requires that each employee "shall comply with all occupational safety and health standards and all rules, regulations, and orders issued under the Act" that are applicable. Each employee should
> 
> Read the OSHA poster at the jobsite;
> Comply with all applicable OSHA standards;
> Follow all lawful employer safety and health rules and regulations, and wear or use prescribed protective equipment while working;
> Report hazardous conditions to the supervisor;
> Report any job-related injury or illness to the employer, and seek treatment promptly;
> Cooperate with the OSHA compliance officer conducting an inspection if he or she inquires about safety and health conditions in the workplace; and
> Exercise rights under the OSH Act in a responsible manner.
> From:
> http://www.osha.gov/Publications/3021.html





bwalley said:


> Mark Leon told me directly during a safety inspection of my jobsite that OSHA can and does fine individual employees that violate safety policy, he said they are doing it because the GC's and subs get fined and that the perosn who violates the policy should also pay a fine.
> 
> As far as contractors licensing goes, those who can get a license and qualify for them do, those like you who can't, work for people like me who take the innitiative to get licensed.
> 
> All sates have to follow OSHA laws, not just Florida.





bwalley said:


> Ask Mark Leon I gave you his contact information, this was an OSHA voluntary compliance inspection, as far as I know the state of Florida does not have stricter rules than OSHA and if they did, why would OSHA be enforcing state rules?


The link has spoken....


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## Anti-wingnut

Yet another example of the fine mental acuity, keen logic, proven top notch research ability and superior debating skills required by the state of Florida in their contractor licensing system. Thank you Big Walley, your participation has been most enlightening yet again, and proves how strict licensing will weed out all those who are not true experts in their field.


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## TBFGhost

I have to say I only read this whole thread b/c of the pissing match that was going on...


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## Anti-wingnut

I'm glad you were entertained, TBF GHost.


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## TBFGhost

It made me laugh...so it was well worth the read.


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## Anti-wingnut

I couldn't have done it without my foil, bleating away with an intellectual target on his back


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## oldrivers

bwalley said:


> The General Contractor, the Sub Contractor and even the employees who are in violation.


 
the general can kick/ fire anyone off the job that violates the rules. weather the rules are set by osha, the general , or the generals insurance company. to me getting fired is like getting a fine if not worse. yes an employee can be punished for violating the rules. maybe osha doesnt do it directly but they do it through manipulation. the general getting manipulated by osha or the insurance co. the ins company will set costs based on osha rules being enacted. yes osha has a hand in it . directly ? maybe not.


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## rino1494

bwalley said:


> Mark Leon told me directly during a safety inspection of my jobsite that OSHA can and does fine individual employees that violate safety policy, he said they are doing it because the GC's and subs get fined and that the perosn who violates the policy should also pay a fine.


My father-in-law has been a safety inspector for OSHA for over 25 yrs and has never heard of such ridiculous crap.


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## oldrivers

the last few years say 10 years, osha has been doubling down on its power, osha is not the same today as it was 24 years ago .. commercial is slow so osha is now going to residential jobsites , never saw that before either ... like the state you live in doesnt collect sales taxes from everyone they just collect it from 1 person that makes the sale but everyone pays it. sure osha might not fine you directly but your boss can and will take it from your wages if he so wants even if osha doesnt catch you but he your general does . osha actually made it worse cause now you have a permenant osha representative on the job that being your boss or the general ... he now has to watch his own back . who really cares what channels the fines go through you pay them eventually.


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## bwalley

rino1494 said:


> My father-in-law has been a safety inspector for OSHA for over 25 yrs and has never heard of such ridiculous crap.


Take it up with Mark, he is the representative that came out and did a voluntary safety inspection on my jobsite and he is the one who told me that.

Have him look at the pictures here and see if that is a safe trench.

Post 18 has a shovel and a ladder in the trench so it gives you an idea of how deep it is, you can also see the shallow angle of the bench. 

http://www.contractortalk.com/f88/fixing-low-bid-58056/#post679689


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## Anti-wingnut

bwalley said:


> Take it up with Mark, he is the representative that came out and did a voluntary safety inspection on my jobsite and he is the one who told me that.
> http://


We have been down this road, I called Mark Leon's office, and they denied your allegations. This is not to say that Mark Leon did not say those things, but if he did, he was wrong.


And you Big Walley, continue to repeat what was either wrong, or mis-heard. You have done nothing to collaborate your facts except to bleat away with the same BS.

For the life of me, I don't know why you just don't take your lumps. But you seem as though you must get in fights and alienate everyone.


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## bwalley

Anti-wingnut said:


> We have been down this road, I called Mark Leon's office, and they denied your allegations. This is not to say that Mark Leon did not say those things, but if he did, he was wrong.
> 
> 
> And you Big Walley, continue to repeat what was either wrong, or mis-heard. You have done nothing to collaborate your facts except to bleat away with the same BS.
> 
> For the life of me, I don't know why you just don't take your lumps. But you seem as though you must get in fights and alienate everyone.


Call and talk to Mark Leon, he is the one who said it.


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## Anti-wingnut

I called Mark Leon office, and they said he was wrong.

Either he was wrong when he said it, or you mis-understood. And the latter is more likely, given your inability to understand the written word.

Just give it up, you were wrong, and the source you cited was wrong also. You would get a lot more respect here if you admitted your mistakes, instead of blaming others and going on and on about your license status.

You act like a twelve year old


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## bwalley

Anti-wingnut said:


> I called Mark Leon office, and they said he was wrong.
> 
> Either he was wrong when he said it, or you mis-understood. And the latter is more likely, given your inability to understand the written word.
> 
> Just give it up, you were wrong, and the source you cited was wrong also. You would get a lot more respect here if you admitted your mistakes, instead of blaming others and going on and on about your license status.
> 
> You act like a twelve year old


I have no idea who you talked to and I previously stated that I got my information from Mark Leon.

Mark was very clear when he told me employees as well as the subs were starting to get fines, if he was wrong, that is not my problem, I spoke based on information I got from an inspector who came out on an OSHA voluntary compliance inspection.

If you know so much why are you just a superintendant and not running your own constrcution company?


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## Anti-wingnut

And why don't you just get a second reference source?



bwalley said:


> If you know so much why are you just a superintendant and not running your own constrcution company?


And another tired one liner.

If you know so much, why are you running a small residential construction company http://www.bretwalley.com/ , and not king of the world?


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## bwalley

Anti-wingnut said:


> And why don't you just get a second reference source?
> 
> 
> 
> And another tired one liner.
> 
> If you know so much, why are you running a small residential construction company http://www.bretwalley.com/ , and not king of the world?


I do residential as well as commercial, have 2 licenses and passed the sate exam for the plumbing contractors license, what professional licenses do you have?

That is a website a client of mine put up to hold my name, it isn't what I would have done, but I am not going to complain about a client who is trying to help me out, who has spent more than a couple of million dollars with me.

What company do you own?


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## Tinstaafl

bwalley said:


> If you know so much why are you just a superintendant and not running your own constrcution company?


I think both of you need to take a chill pill; you're beginning to sound like fourth graders.

But while I confess to having no personal experience with OSHA (thank you!), the above is totally non-responsive. If you make a statement and aren't prepared to back it up with appropriate documentation, it makes no difference whatsoever whether your challenger is David Michaels (the head of OSHA), another contractor, or... a fourth grader.

And I must agree with AW. Your constant citing of your license qualifications is generally irrelevant, unnecessary and irritating. In this venue, the way to establish your credentials is to demonstrate practical knowledge (which you often do), rather than proclaim what pretty mass-produced certificates you possess (which you do nearly as often). The latter impresses no one here, as far as I can tell.


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## BuiltByMAC

Whatever value this thread might've had, it's gone now.

Mac


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