# re: how long does it take to dig?



## ahava more

*re: how long does it take to dig?*

I'm going to be digging down to the foundation to replace some clay weeping tile, repair cracks, backfill, install some blueskin and a drainage mat, and create a cleanout.
I am going to hire some labour to help me out on this one.

I would have rented a backhoe, but there is not enough clearance to move it to where it needs to be.

The soil conditions have a higher concentration of clay, than silt or sand. Footing depth is only 5'.

I wanted to know approximately how much can a worker dig out in a day approximately with 2 people in a crew (including myself). I would consider getting a third person depending on the economics.
thanks
-a m


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## The Coastal Craftsman

if its me digging then about 2'x2'x2' in about 6 hours with 30 beer breaks.

How longs a piece of string.


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## ahava more

> How longs a piece of string


it depends how many of those beers have been drunk before you ask the question.


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## tgeb

Please be observant as to the the conditions of the trench wall, one of the biggest problems with doing this type of work with labor only is the spoils pile is placed too close to the edge of the excavated area. This increases the risk of cave in.

If you don't know the proper rules governing trench excavation it would be best advised that you consult someone who does know the rules and is a "Competent Person".

A few years ago in a town near me, a very similar job, and 2 men never went home.

https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_v/otm_v_2.html


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## ahava more

thanks for the link. this is definitely worth reading.


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## hdavis

Keeping the loose soil away from the hole is going to take longer than just digging a hole.

I dig and move the soil away for a 20X15 at the top, 20X3 at the bottom 12' deep in about 300-400 hours. Once you get down ~3', moving the dirt out takes a LOT of time.

Get a third person to wheelbarrow. Two can fill a wheel barrow about as fast as it will be moved, dumped, and brought back. Or go with two, and take turns digging so one gets a break. A low cart is even better than a wheelbarrow.


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## mudpad

"Only" 5 foot deep? What's your location, Siberia?


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## jlsconstruction

A mini excavator would work better imo


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## hdavis

I'll dig 2'X4' X 3' deep in an hour including rocks and hard pan / digging bar work.


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## rino1494

What is the length of foundation wall to be exposed ?? That seems like a quite a bit of digging by hand. You can't get a mini excavator in there ?

One trick to loosen the soil so it is easier to dig is using an air compressor and a 3/4" pipe with a shut off valve. We use that when digging around utilities in tight areas.


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## mudpad

hdavis said:


> I'll dig 2'X4' X 3' deep in an hour including rocks and hard pan / digging bar work.


I'll bet you won't in middle tennessee. 

That's another reason it would be nice to know where the OP is located.


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## cleveman

Lord help you in this area if you get up against some dry gumbo. I was helping a guy a few years ago and he was fighting for every slice with a mini-ex. If you were using a shovel, you would switch to a hammer & chisel.


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## jakejorgenson

Any reason you can't get a mini-ex in there? It would be much better. Or a mini-backhoe?


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## hdavis

mudpad said:


> I'll bet you won't in middle tennessee.


Not even in lots of places. Ignoring ledge and boulders (they're everywhere) central Texas has some real crap to dig through. Sorry I missed out on middle Tennesee's crap - probably another place that's easier to put a sonotube up and fill around than dig a hole...


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## mudpad

hdavis said:


> Not even in lots of places. Ignoring ledge and boulders (they're everywhere) central Texas has some real crap to dig through. Sorry I missed out on middle Tennesee's crap - probably another place that's easier to put a sonotube up and fill around than dig a hole...


Yep, if elevation is optional. 

We do a lot of blasting.:thumbup:


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## tgeb

ahava more said:


> thanks for the link. this is definitely worth reading.


Thank you, for taking the situation seriously enough to follow through and read up on the proper procedures. Please do read up on the regulations.

One of the biggest issues I see with digging up an existing foundation is that you have no way of knowing how much of the soil adjacent to the dig is virgin soil, and how much is fill, or imported material.

As stated a couple times above a mini ex will save you a lot of time and make the effort to create safe working conditions much easier.



> I would consider getting a third person depending on the economics.


Economics should never enter into your thought process when doing this kind of work. You price the job to do it safely, there is no other option. 
Of course we all want to "win" the project, but at what cost?
There is risk involved no matter what you do in the construction business, minimize your risk and make a fair buck is all most of us try to do.

If you find the customer's budget is not compatible with completing the job safely...move on.

Oh, Welcome to the site!


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## ahava more

thanks for all the comments!
the reason it is only 5', is because the basement has 2' clerestory windows below the joist with the grade slightly below that. If i measure the height of the soil, from the basement and taking account thickness to the slab, we are looking at only 5'-6' feet. I don't think i would attempt it if it was deeper due to the safety issue, of making it wider in a small space.

the soil in this city (toronto) is not very rocky, but there are unexpected boulders from time to time. in this type of construction they used to just backfilled the soil here after installing clay weeping tile and tar on the foundation wall, but it is probably compacted due to freeze thaw and soil hydrolics over 50 years.

Yeah, i wish i could rent an excavator, but as i said, there is not enough room to drive it where it needs to be. (fences are in the way).

If the dirt is dumped farther away as recommended, from the comments it seems as though i could do mabye 1 linear foot per hour with a two person team, and 2 linear feet with a 3 person team.

It is definitely worth thinking about giving this a pass due to the difficulty and safety.
thanks for all the tips. much appreciated.
-am


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## fourcornerhome

You can always remove the fences and then reinstall when the project is completed


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## ahava more

> You can always remove the fences and then reinstall when the project is completed


i wonder if it is worth the hassle. 

Chain link yes, but wood? i am not sure that can be done without removing the posts from the soil It is a good idea though, definatley worth looking into.

I just read the OSHA document. Most interesting is the guidelines and drying for each type of soil and the methods for safe digging. I am thankful, that it is not near the lake, from what i was told a while ago, that soils are more silty there. Yeah for clay stability! doh for digging it.


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## greg24k

x2 what Tom said, safety should be your #1 concern. Get a small track hoe and you will get that done in no time and it will probably cost you less if you think about it, not to mention how much time you will save.

Something like this.


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## THW

ahava more said:


> i wonder if it is worth the hassle.
> 
> Chain link yes, but wood? i am not sure that can be done without removing the posts from the soil It is a good idea though, definatley worth looking into.


Worth the hassle? I would rather remove and reset a few fence posts than dig a 5 foot deep trench by hand. Even if the posts were set in concrete. But maybe that's just me.


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## TxElectrician

hdavis said:


> Not even in lots of places. Ignoring ledge and boulders (they're everywhere) central Texas has some real crap to dig through. Sorry I missed out on middle Tennesee's crap - probably another place that's easier to put a sonotube up and fill around than dig a hole...


I don't know of anyone around here that quotes digging or trenching. It costs what it costs. Anyone who gives an estimate always has a rock clause in it.


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## greg24k

By the way before you dig with a shovel or an excavator don't forget to *Call 811*


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## peteo

Anything more than 4 1/2' you need shoring or you must bench your excavation. I'm willing to bet that was in that osha link but I figured I'd throw that out there just in case. Clay is nice but when it goes it doesn't give any warning, hence a good reason to bench it off. Also make sure there's someone watching your trench the whole time. Even if nothing happens its a good idea to have a guy who's able to call for help if you need it. Better to pay a guy a hundred bucks to do nothing more than give you piece of mind than to not go home because nobody knew something happened.


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## hdavis

TxElectrician said:


> I don't know of anyone around here that quotes digging or trenching. It costs what it costs. Anyone who gives an estimate always has a rock clause in it.


Maine law is you have to give a quote if it's for a HO. A rock clause here may or may not get triggered, but in your area I'd guess it would just about every time.


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## TNTRenovate

mudpad said:


> "Only" 5 foot deep? What's your location, Siberia?


Basement systems go down further than that.


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## rino1494

How bad do you really need the work ?? Sounds like something I wouldn't even consider unless I was on the verge of being homeless.


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## CarpenterSFO

Just looking at the hand excavation: let's say you're 5 feet deep, with a 45degree cut back to prevent collapse. Per 1 linear foot, that's 12.5 cubic feet; expanded call it 25, or about 180 gallons, or about 70 half-filled 5-gallon buckets for a laborer to carry. But let's be optimistic and call it 50 buckets. To make 1 foot per hour, you need your 2-man crew to dig and move about 1 bucket per minute, hour after hour. Maybe they can do that, let's say yes.

Let's say you need to move 50 feet. Call it 7 days labor to dig out. Let's say you do it in 15 foot sections (to lay 10-foot sections of pipe plus some room at the end. A 15-foot section of trench creates a 14 cubic yard pile of dirt, not all of which is going back in the hole, even if you're rigorous about compacting. Let's look at 3 more days to put the dirt back in the hole, compact, clean, haul the excess, etc.

10 days x 2 laborers = 20 man days, 8 hours = 160 man hours. Let's double it, in case you run into some rocks. 320 man hours.

Multiply by your fully-loaded labor cost (not the homeowner's expectation of $5/hr), add overhead and profit.

It adds up to a significant number, for my made-up picture of your project. At that cost, moving some fences might start to work. It might cost less to demo some sections of fence and build new. Anyway it's sure worth talking about those numbers with the homeowner.

I wouldn't try to talk you out of the job - as long as you get paid fairly for the work, the hassle, and the risk, it could make sense.

Edit: At 5 or 6 feet, I'd shore it rather than cut back. That's shallow enough that shoring is relatively easy and inexpensive; deep enough to save a lot of digging.


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## CarpenterSFO

rino1494 said:


> How bad do you really need the work ?? Sounds like something I wouldn't even consider unless I was on the verge of being homeless.


In the city, not only are these sorts of jobs a lot of work and a hassle, they're very risky due to the proximity of other buildings. A high percentage end up with claims of settling by the neighbors.


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## ahava more

thanks for all the input everyone. lots to think about for sure. 
i believe there is a tall spruce nearby.
How do the roots affect soil stability? I would think it would depend on the soil type. thoughts?
-am


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## tyb525

One man was killed and another injured in a trench collapse near here recently.


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## rino1494

CarpenterSFO said:


> In the city, not only are these sorts of jobs a lot of work and a hassle, they're very risky due to the proximity of other buildings. A high percentage end up with claims of settling by the neighbors.


Yeah and since the OP is talking about a budget, this job seems like a lose lose.


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## GO Remodeling

How do you know the tile is broken? 
What type of foundation do you have? There are interior foundation repairs that work pretty good.


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## dayexco

olzo55 said:


> How do you know the tile is broken?
> What type of foundation do you have? There are interior foundation repairs that work pretty good.


There are no good inside foundation repairs. ..they are just a little bit better than you had before. Fix it right and be done with it.


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## mudpad

TNTSERVICES said:


> Basement systems go down further than that.


Oh yeah. We don't do them much around here. SOG yes, crawl space pretty common, basements involve dynamite. 

We're lucky to get 2' deep, but that's plenty below the frost line.


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## GO Remodeling

dayexco said:


> There are no good inside foundation repairs. ..they are just a little bit better than you had before. Fix it right and be done with it.


Sorry but I disagree. Do they dig up a tunnel to waterproof the exterior? They waterproof from the inside if it leaks. Some of the same products are available for basement repairs.


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## Redneckpete

In my younger days, (ten years ago) I would hand dig, repair and backfill two foundation cracks 8 feet deep in one day. My employee would also do two, we would help each other passing stuff down with the fixing process.

We would dig four feet wide (just wide enough to turn the shovel in the hole) about two feet out from the wall and eight feet straight down. The trick was to move the first soil far from the hole, so that the edge was free for the last soil.

Did it meet safety standards? No way, but the soil was very tight clay, and we never had a collapse or even a crack in the bank. We make really good money doing it.

Then I got old and found easier ways to make really good money.

Pete


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## peteo

Redneckpete said:


> In my younger days, (ten years ago) I would hand dig, repair and backfill two foundation cracks 8 feet deep in one day. My employee would also do two, we would help each other passing stuff down with the fixing process.
> 
> We would dig four feet wide (just wide enough to turn the shovel in the hole) about two feet out from the wall and eight feet straight down. The trick was to move the first soil far from the hole, so that the edge was free for the last soil.
> 
> Did it meet safety standards? No way, but the soil was very tight clay, and we never had a collapse or even a crack in the bank. We make really good money doing it.
> 
> Then I got old and found easier ways to make really good money.
> 
> Pete


I'd say you were lucky. In my younger years I'd have gone in a hole like that. Then one day I saw about 40' of ditch collapse. Thank God nobody was in it. We had pipe and stone in but didn't backfill yet. From that point on I won't get in a ditch without a trench box or proper shoring.


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## Redneckpete

peteo said:


> I'd say you were lucky. In my younger years I'd have gone in a hole like that. Then one day I saw about 40' of ditch collapse. Thank God nobody was in it. We had pipe and stone in but didn't backfill yet. From that point on I won't get in a ditch without a trench box or proper shoring.


A 40' ditch is a whole different animal then a four foot wide x eight foot deep cut next to a foundation.

The longer the cut, the more likely the bank is to collapse. A four foot wide cut, dug by hand (material around the perimeter not disturbed by a machine pulling on it), against a wall, will only collapse in really poor soil conditions.

Nevertheless, don't be an idiot like I was, and always follow the proper safety regulations.

My point was, even in heavy clay conditions, eight feet deep, a single motivated digger should be able to excavate five cubic yards a day, fix the wall and then backfill that amount.

Pete


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## MarkJames

Reading about hand digging for this job has made me extremely tired. Good night.


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## greg24k

I came home from work and i gave a sound advise to the OP. 
Today I went out with couple friends of mine and after drinking a bottle of vodka, I look at this post again and I think to myself, you have to be a total idiot to even consider digging that by hand :laughing:


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## rino1494

greg24k said:


> I came home from work and i gave a sound advise to the OP.
> Today I went out with couple friends of mine and after drinking a bottle of vodka, I look at this post again and I think to myself, you have to be a total idiot to even consider digging that by hand :laughing:



I follow the motto: "Work smarter, not harder."

I do not need the money that bad to kill myself. Like I said, it is something I wouldn't even consider unless I was on the verge of homelessness.

To the OP.... what about a vaccum truck. Can you access the work area with one of those ?


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## ahava more

I am happy to report that the job was done, about 70 worker hours total for a 18 foot section @ 5 feet
Would i do it again? probably not, due to the required constant supervision to make sure everything was safe. If I had access to an excavator, maybe. If the foundation was at the proper 8-9 feet, i defintaely wouldn't want to put workers in there, I think that is too dangerous without extensive experience. I needed to give two or three reminders over the course of the project, such as not loading/unloading the wheelbarrow near the edge of the trench.

I only felt comfortable doing this because of my existing knowledge of how the weeping tile system works, grading, soil hygrolic pressure on foundation walls etc. For anyone who hasn't tried this before I don't recommend doing a job like this without having prior exposure.

Two pieces of advice I will pass on to others:
1. Blueskin is hard to work with in narrow spaces. It is also not the best choice if the wall is not almost completely flat. WIth that said, if you can make it flat, it is a good product. You must wear a resporator with an organic filter when you apply the primer , or tell your workers to stay far away. ALso, if the HVAC intake is at the wall, plug up the hole with a rag, or turn off the system, fumes are dangerous. Henry/Bakor makes a product called Blue seal which is non-noxic as a fluid or spray applied alternative for rough walls that is non-toxic.

2: Install two cleanouts facing each other with a Y-connection, not just to run a hose, but more importantly to allow a drain/plumbing company to inspect the weepers in the future. It only cost about $80 in extra materials, 1 hour of total extra labour (tamping mostly), but it gives the homeowner a means to inspect their system without digging a hole, saving them about $1500 (not my price)

thanks for the advice everyone!


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## hdavis

I'm assuming this was 18X5X~3', for 270 cu ft total. I'm assuming most of your time was spent moving the dirt out and away from the hole - comments?


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## ahava more

hdavis said:


> I'm assuming this was 18X5X~3', for 270 cu ft total. I'm assuming most of your time was spent moving the dirt out and away from the hole - comments?


yes, probably 70-80% of time is the best guess, the width of the hole was only 2' 1/2' feet or so, but tapered in at bottom.


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## tgeb

Good to hear you got it completed, and everyone was safe.

Thanks for taking the safety advice as it was intended, a lot of guys get real defensive and storm off, only to put themselves or others in jeopardy.

I would have widened the trench more than you indicated, to make for better working conditions, but that's the kind of guy I am.....


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