# Who knew?



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Roofcheck said:


> This is a very informative site, however I call bull**** because 3 days right to cancel does not get customer out of free work years gone by. There are statute of limitations for most situations and no judge would just say yeah give them the money back years of use and use and enjoyment later.


It's the law. That's why they get three years to cancel if they don't get the 3 day signed.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Who knew they had to get a federal 3 day right to cancel notice signed?
> 
> Here's the law: 12 C.F.R. 226.15


No where does it say the contractor has to put the home back in its original condition. However if he chooses to recover his property he may. So it would be within his legal right to take his kitchen cabinets and not fix the kitchen. And it would be up to the HO to sue in state court for the damages. Then the contractor can argue the fact that the HO used the contractors cabinets that weren't his to use. Because he acted on his recinding rights the cabinets should of been left unused.

(Cabinets being a hypothetical)


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

So the contractor has a counter suit against the HO for using the contractors property. The cabinets in this instance.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> No where does it say the contractor has to put the home back in its original condition. However if he chooses to recover his property he may. So it would be within his legal right to take his kitchen cabinets and not fix the kitchen. And it would be up to the HO to sue in state court for the damages. Then the contractor can argue the fact that the HO used the contractors cabinets that weren't his to use. Because he acted on his recinding rights the cabinets should of been left unused.
> 
> (Cabinets being a hypothetical)


Never said that they had to return it to original condition. Just that they had to return all of their money.

And once it is attached to the structure of the building it is part of the building and property of the owner of said building. It is no longer the contractors property. So no legal right to remove them. The only recourse is suing for breach of contract.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Never said that they had to return it to original condition. Just that they had to return all of their money.
> 
> And once it is attached to the structure of the building it is part of the building and property of the owner of said building. It is no longer the contractors property. So no legal right to remove them. The only recourse is suing for breach of contract.


Nope according to the statue the only way a HO can use their right to recind is to allow the contractor to get all his material and property that is in the original contract pertaining to the recinding notice, off the premises and has 20 days to do so. If the HO does not allow him on the property to do so, they have breached their end of the recinding rules.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Never said that they had to return it to original condition. Just that they had to return all of their money.
> 
> And once it is attached to the structure of the building it is part of the building and property of the owner of said building. It is no longer the contractors property. So no legal right to remove them. The only recourse is suing for breach of contract.


And I never said you said that


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

And if it's impracticable to give the contractor back his property or material the HO must tender its worth. However it's up to the consumer as to whether he wants to return the material or pay the money it's worth.

If the creditor has delivered any money or property, the consumer may retain possession until the creditor has met its obligation under paragraph (d)(2) of this section. When the creditor has complied with that paragraph, * the consumer shall tender the money or property to the creditor or, where the latter would be impracticable or inequitable, tender its reasonable value. At the consumer's option, tender of property may be made at the location of the property or at the consumer'sresidence.* Tender of money must be made at the creditor's designated place of business. If the creditor does not take possession of the money or property within 20 calendar days after the consumer's tender, the consumer may keep it without further obligation.


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> And if it's impracticable to give the contractor back his property or material the HO must tender its worth. However it's up to the consumer as to whether he wants to return the material or pay the money it's worth.
> 
> If the creditor has delivered any money or property, the consumer may retain possession until the creditor has met its obligation under paragraph (d)(2) of this section. When the creditor has complied with that paragraph, * the consumer shall tender the money or property to the creditor or, where the latter would be impracticable or inequitable, tender its reasonable value. At the consumer's option, tender of property may be made at the location of the property or at the consumer'sresidence.* Tender of money must be made at the creditor's designated place of business. If the creditor does not take possession of the money or property within 20 calendar days after the consumer's tender, the consumer may keep it without further obligation.


See here is where it gets sticky in my opinion, (lets use Kitchen Remodel scenario) obviously you cant return the kitchen back to normal and just move on because things have been removed, what is considered fair market value for the work that has been done, does it include just materials, or would it include labor and profit.
The way I read it, is that we are to make a 50/50 split where no one side is benefiting, however reading some of the case studies if a homeowner and a lawyer want to go after you and the paper work was not in order you really don't have much of a leg to stand on.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

country_huck said:


> See here is where it gets sticky in my opinion, (lets use Kitchen Remodel scenario) obviously you cant return the kitchen back to normal and just move on because things have been removed, what is considered fair market value for the work that has been done, does it include just materials, or would it include labor and profit.
> The way I read it, is that we are to make a 50/50 split where no one side is benefiting, however reading some of the case studies if a homeowner and a lawyer want to go after you and the paper work was not in order you really don't have much of a leg to stand on.


Your assuming the HO has a better lawyer. I think a good lawyer could recover the money for the cabinets or whatever material he doesn't return.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> Ok the next question is can we all have your form?


here
http://www.contractortalk.com/f16/three-days-29979/#post326957

http://www.contractortalk.com/f16/three-days-29979/#post326992


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> here
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f16/three-days-29979/#post326957
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f16/three-days-29979/#post326992


I think I could write in the title that the right to cancel is for state law and federal law and it would cover both. The terms of canceling are the same. So one form should be able to cover both as long as the form made that clear. You think?


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> I think I could write in the title that the right to cancel is for state law and federal law and it would cover both. The terms of canceling are the same. So one form should be able to cover both as long as the form made that clear. You think?


I'm all beyond second-guessing what shyster lawyers can come up with to work an end-run around what should be a obvious"YES".

In MI, we follow the Fed rule.

http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,4534,7-164-17337_20942-44718--,00.html

Note:

- Right to waiver is to be attached to main contract, but shall be separable. That's so the customer can send it to you as part of the cancellation, without affecting the main body of the contract.

Freebie:
http://www.free-real-estate-forms.com/right-of-rescission.html

Freebie 2:
http://www.contractortalk.com/f65/3-day-right-cancel-51596/#post582600

I'm looking right now for the original NAHB form I've had forever...
(hopeless me)


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Mike,

Reading your California law as explained by the CA consumers affair page, it lays out as CA only following the Fed statute.

It also gives an example form, labeled as "appendix A".

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/k_9.shtml
http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/k_9.shtml#appendixa

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/k_9.pdf

(shrugs)


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Once it is installed and attached to their house, you aren't getting it back... 

It's why you can repossess a piece of furniture or electronics but can't cabinets...

Whether a judge will make them pay for the cabinets, in whole or part, is another matter...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Mike,
> 
> Reading your California law as explained by the CA consumers affair page, it lays out as CA only following the Fed statute.
> 
> ...


Not sure your point. I give each customer a three day right to cancel.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm fully compliant with my state laws


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

As for the federal form every person that's involved in getting the work done must get the notice and sign it. So that meaning both spouses must sign one each. Or is like not giving one at all.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

3-Day Right to Cancel – Contractors Beware

Every contractor who does residential work knows about a home owner's three-day right to cancel. But what you may not know is how vicious this innocuous little form can be. Here's a short quiz to test your understanding. Answers are below.

True or false?

1. The 3-day right to cancel is a federal notice and isn't required in most states.
2. There no harm in skipping this form. It's safe to leave it out of your contracts.
3. If you decide to include the notice in your contract, one copy is enough.
4. The 3-day right to cancel is required only on major home improvement jobs.
5. The 3-day right to cancel is required only if you extend credit to the owner.

First, something that should be obvious: Don't start work, don't deliver materials, don't schedule crews until three business days after the contract is signed. When a contract is cancelled under federal law (12 C.F.R. 226.15), you have to undo the deal at your own expense. Any lien you thought you had is cancelled. You're liable for twice any finance charge up to $1,000 plus costs and attorney fees.

Answer to Question 1 – Not required in most states.
False. The 3-day right to cancel is a federal right. But it's a right granted in all states any time you do work on the principal residence of the owner. Even if your state has its own 3-day right to cancel, you still have to deliver the federal form, filled out with the date of signing, your mailing address and the last day to cancel.

Answer to Question 2 – It's safe to skip this form.
False. It's not safe at all. Omitting the 3-day notice gives the owner three years to cancel (§ 226.15-b).After cancellation, you have the right to take materials back. But you have to make a full refund! Imagine making a full refund on a home improvement job three years after completion. More on that later.

Answer to Question 3 – One copy of the form is enough.
False. 12 CFR 226.15-b requires that each owner receive two copies of the cancellation notice. If two adults are living in a home, it's safe to assume that both are owners. Delivering less than four copies of the 3-day right to cancel is like delivering none at all. See Weeden v. Auto Workers Credit Union, Inc., 1999 U.S. App. LEXIS 5272.

Answer to Question 4 – Required only on major jobs.
False. The federal 3-day notice is required on every job that qualifies as the principal residence of the owner, whether a custom home, home improvement or home repair. There is no threshold dollar amount. Even replacing a water heater gives the owner 3 days to cancel. In a true emergency, the owner can waive the right to cancel with a written statement.

Answer to Question 5 – Required only if you extend credit.
False. The 3-day right to cancel exists on every job that could result in a lien on the owner's property. And that's every job because all states give contractors a construction lien for their work.

Don't let this happen to you.
A few years ago Alma and Robert Johnson needed a little work done on their front porch at 65 Stanford Street, Providence, Rhode Island. Interstate Contractors got the job. They finished the work and got paid -- $12,400. Unfortunately for Interstate, their work was better than their contract. I'll explain.

Two years later, the Johnson's had some financial reverses. Their home fell into foreclosure and the Johnsons filed for bankruptcy. One of their creditors had a smart attorney with the good sense to pull out the contract for that front porch job. Turns out, Interstate's contract wasn't quite right. There wasn't any federal 3-day cancellation notice. That was Interstate's Mistake One. The Johnson's could still cancel the job, two years after completion, and get a full refund under federal law. Great! But it gets better.

Rhode Island gives owners a 3-day right to cancel – but only if the owners don't get the federal right to cancel notice. Well, the Johnsons never got their federal notice. So Rhode Island's law applied. Interstate must have known that. Interstate's contract with the Johnsons included the Rhode Island 3-day cancellation notice. Unfortunately, the Rhode Island notice wasn't quite perfect. It wasn't in 10-point bold type. And one part of one paragraph was missing. Bingo! Interstate's Mistake Two.

So the Johnsons canceled under Rhode Island law. Interstate now had 20 days to refund the full $12,400. Too bad. They didn't make it. And that was Mistake Three. Failure to make a full refund in 20 days made Interstate liable to the Johnson's creditors for double the contract amount -- $24,800. And that was the award of the court. (I'm not making this up. See 239 B.R. 255.)

Like I said, that federal 3-day notice can be full of nasty surprises.

My recommendation: Don't be an Interstate. Use quality contracts that comply with both your state law and federal law. You'll find plenty*here*and*here.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> Not sure your point. I give each customer a three day right to cancel.


"I think I could write in the title that the right to cancel is for state law and federal law and it would cover both. The terms of canceling are the same. So one form should be able to cover both as long as the form made that clear. You think? "

Reading the page I linked to, it infers that California is only acknowledging and following Fed statute.

- Suggests a single form would suffice.
- As offered in the Appendix A.
- I have no doubt you give each customer the notice - I would not imply otherwise.

Lastly, it is one damned serious statute. No one should ignore it - even for a service call.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> "I think I could write in the title that the right to cancel is for state law and federal law and it would cover both. The terms of canceling are the same. So one form should be able to cover both as long as the form made that clear. You think? "
> 
> Reading the page I linked to, it infers that California is only acknowledging and following Fed statute.
> 
> ...


I wasn't being a turd. I really was wanting some clarification on what you were meaning. I was thinking a federal form would be sufficient for the state. I am going to call the board about this. Your right it is damn important. I'd hate to have to refund someone's 60k back to them from 2 years ago. I'm not opposed to throwing this thread upstairs as to not give people any ideas.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Ok guys I just got this from the person who drafts my forms. I'm getting a federal form made. 

Hi Mike!


I checked it out and the federal law for the 3-day right has almost exactly the same text that I do in my 3-day right that I have here on my computer. 


I need to go in and add "BUSINESS" to the "ten days" and I need to look at the title and whatnot but this is something I can do pretty quickly (but later today/tonight).


Do you need a Microsoft Word version or a PDF version?


The PDF will take me a bit longer because I have to create it in Word, then convert it, then draw the fill-in fields. But I can do it, just letting you know it'll take a bit more time for the PDF.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

dsconstructs said:


> My forms are quite similar to yours. I know the wording on both mostly just seem to be repetitive. The one on right is the one that informs them of their right, the one on the left they would use should they choose to cancel. Plus I have another one they would sign acknowledging they received the other two notices. Gotta love all the paperwork


Yep they sign they received both and initial they did. The redundancy is rediculious


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

You know it was some puss government worker who has never risked any of their own jack and would cry like a 5 yo girl if they got a grand taken back after three years. Or some parasitic lawyer. For every good attorney their is 500 parasites.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> You know it was some puss government worker who has never risked any of their own jack and would cry like a 5 yo girl if they got a grand taken back after three years. Or some parasitic lawyer. For every good attorney their is 500 parasites.


Amen


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

I'm surprised with the amount of liability you take not having this form done correctly, that their would not be more people interested in this thread.


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

The form I use has the federal law stated almost word for word.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> They sign several times on my contracts


I am a Magneto font fan myself👍


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## hrdwrkr (Aug 11, 2015)

can u show me a sample of this form?? i need to upgrade my contracts pronto


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## hrdwrkr (Aug 11, 2015)

The form I use has the federal law stated almost word for word.
can u show me a sample of this form


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

I will post mine tomorrow morning when I get to my office.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Hardworker I showed the link, here is a section

* notice to the consumer in 10 -point bold faced- type *as follows:*
YOU MAY CANCEL THIS CONTRACT AT ANY TIME BEFORE MIDNIGHT OF THE THIRD
BUSINESS DAY AFTER RECEIVING A COPY OF THIS CONTRACT. IF YOU WISH TO 
CANCEL THIS CONTRACT, YOU MUST EITHER:
1. SEND A SIGNED AND DATED WRITTEN NOTICE OF CANCELLATION BY REGISTERED OR
CERTIFIED MAIL, RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED; OR 
2. PERSONALLY DELIVER A SIGNED AND DATED WRITTEN NOTICE OF CANCELLATION 
TO: 
(Name, Address and phone number of contractor)
If you cancel this contract within the three day period, you are entitled to a full refund of your money.
Refunds must be made within 30 days of the contractor’s receipt of the cancellation notice.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Now things are rolling we've got construction contract lawyers on this. My legal forms person is going to check it all out with her company lawyers. I think I stirred an ants nest. :laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

It's surprising to me that my construction forms lady was in the dark on this. Explains why I was in the dark as well. 

Here was my latest email from her. 

Hi Mike!


I know that's the rule for California state but I can't find anything about that for federal.


I'll ask my attorney about it and let you know what I find out. 


Can you please tell me where you saw that not including the Federal notice gives them 3 years?


Thank you Mike!!

Diane

PS: The Federal and CA state forms are almost exactly alike and neither carries the law codes or a statement as to whether or not it's a Federal or State form. I'll let you know what I find out. 

I sent her all the info from this site pertaining to the law on it.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

So here is the way to get out of all of the paperwork required.
Have an office and tell the customer that they come to the office for closing.
Shoot I try to be law abiding but we are getting carried away.
The only instance of this being a problem is some obscure reference.

Lawyers in NYS can only be sued for malpractice for one year after they perform work, yet we as contractors are now responsible for 3 years. No wonder we all hate lawyers.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Framer53 said:


> So here is the way to get out of all of the paperwork required.
> Have an office and tell the customer that they come to the office for closing.
> Shoot I try to be law abiding but we are getting carried away.
> The only instance of this being a problem is some obscure reference.
> ...


We sign 99% of our contracts in my bank, we have to have them notarized here. Small jobs I sign at their house, some jobs we sign at the office if I don't care to get it notarized


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

So if my notice doesn't carry a law code why couldn't it be used for both the fed and state. Depending on which one asks? In other words where does it say it has to say "fed" on it?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Or better yet have one notice say fed and state

Just checked this isn't legal to my knowledge


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

Let's just say I don't pull out my full blown contract with all notices very often but decided to peek at this year's version of the 3 day notice...this is what I have now. 



> YOUR RIGHTS TO CANCEL BEFORE WORK BEGINS
> 
> (A) You, the buyer, have the right to cancel this contract until: 1. You receive a copy of this contract signed and dated by you and the contractor; and 2. The contractor starts work.
> 
> ...


There's the separate cancellation notice should they decide to use it, and the acknowledgment form that they received all that. 

I also don't see why there would be a need for separate Fed/State forms when everything I read says it's always been a Fed thing but that states just follow it at a minimum or add their own stricter requirements if they choose.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

dsconstructs said:


> Let's just say I don't pull out my full blown contract with all notices very often but decided to peek at this year's version of the 3 day notice...this is what I have now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually it says it has to be separate from the state 3 day. I just double checked


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

Yay.....more repetitiveness


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

dsconstructs said:


> Yay.....more repetitiveness


It's just ways to say "gotcha" by lawyers


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> If you don't have a federal 3 day right to cancel signed, they have 3 years to cancel. You will have to refund 100% of their money back.


If you don't give your customer a 3-Day Notice To Cancel in California the homeowner has 4 years to cancel and you have to pay back every penny the customer paid.

I called my attorney today and got a brief explanation. The notice for the 3 Day Right To Cancel is a federal law and complaints are handled at the state level by the contractor's board, consumer's affairs, or a customer can take you directly through the courts. You are required to give customers only one notice with two copies so the customer can send one copy back to you if they cancel. I was wrong about the minimum amount. You do not have to give a notice for sales $25, or less.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

pcplumber said:


> If you don't give your customer a 3-Day Notice To Cancel in California the homeowner has 4 years to cancel and you have to pay back every penny the customer paid.
> 
> I called my attorney today and got a brief explanation. The notice for the 3 Day Right To Cancel is a federal law and complaints are handled at the state level by the contractor's board, consumer's affairs, or a customer can take you directly through the courts. You are required to give customers only one notice with two copies so the customer can send one copy back to you if they cancel. I was wrong about the minimum amount. You do not have to give a notice for sales $25, or less.


Nope you need both. The state doesn't enforce federal laws.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

Framer53 said:


> So here is the way to get out of all of the paperwork required.
> Have an office and tell the customer that they come to the office for closing.
> Shoot I try to be law abiding but we are getting carried away.
> The only instance of this being a problem is some obscure reference.
> ...


Contractors are likely to get sued and are liable for as long as the Statute Of Limitations in your state and for contracting that is usually 4 years. That means, if you violate any laws, do bad work, or even fail to give your customer a stupid notice then the contractor's board or a judge can rescind your entire contract and force you to pay back every penny.

If you commit fraud or do shoddy work there I am fairly positive that there is no statute of limitations for certain things and you can get sued many years even after you retire. I have homes that are as much as 10 years old in Las Vegas and I get notices every week for class action lawsuits due to the shoddy work the builders did.


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## Mike GBC (Jan 5, 2015)

Definitely a real law. There is certain wordage it has to have. Plus customer has to get two copies of it


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*You need to provide only one form required by your state.*

Read this sentence taken from the website in the link below.

California's Business and Professions Code section 7163 – adds to the federal Truth in Lending Act's consumer protections during the three-business-day cancellation period, and in situations where the contract is not enforceable.

This sentence says exactly what I told you a few days ago. It says that California 'ADDS TO' the federal 3-Day Right To cancel. That equates to; a separate federal notice is not required.

Regarding the 3-Day Right To Cancel, I am surprise how little everyone knows about it, the fact that so many people have not been giving customers the form and the fact that people are saying contractors need to give their customers both the state and federal forms.

That is ludicrous. The state and federal requirements are the same thing with the exception of a few words on the form that have been changed by the state.

The following is from a website and there is no wording that says contractors have to give their customers two forms. You are required to give your customers only the form with the wording that is required by your state. If you are a federally regulated lender then you need to abide by the federal requirements.

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/k-10.shtml

Homeowners who enter into contracts with contractors to improve, remodel or repair their homes almost always have a right to cancel the contract, without any penalty or obligation, within three business days after signing the contract. A homeowner may also have a right to cancel a contract after three days in limited, extraordinary, situations.

The homeowner's cancellation rights are created by both state and federal laws. This Legal Guide explains the applicability and the procedural requirements of the following cancellation provisions:

California's Home Solicitation Sales Act – allows the buyer in almost any consumer transaction involving $25 or more, which takes place in the buyer's home or away from the seller's place of business, to cancel the transaction within three business days after signing the contract.1
California's post-disaster home repair provisions – automatically voids many contracts for the repair or restoration of a consumer's home signed in the aftermath of a disaster.2
The federal Truth in Lending Act – provides a three-business-day cancellation period to many buyers in situations where the home improvements are to be financed and involve a security interest in the buyer's home.3
California's Business and Professions Code section 7163 – adds to the federal Truth in Lending Act's consumer protections during the three-business-day cancellation period, and in situations where the contract is not enforceable.4
While the homeowner's cancellation rights under these provisions are broad, each law contains important exceptions and limitations. It is helpful for a homeowner to understand these rights and limits, before he or she enters into a contract with a contractor or attempts to cancel the contract.

The homeowner's rights to cancel under the California provisions are in addition to other rights the homeowner may have to cancel the transaction.(See part V, below)5

I.
HOME SOLICITATION SALES ACT
A home improvement contract, and almost any other consumer transaction involving $25 or more, which takes place in the buyer's home or away from "appropriate trade premises," can be canceled by the buyer, without giving a reason, and without penalty or obligation, within three business days after the buyer signs the contract.

A. Explanation of Terms
1. "Appropriate Trade Premises"

"Appropriate trade premises" means the place where the seller or owner normally carries on his or her business, or where goods normally are offered for sale in the course of a business that is carried on at those premises.6

The Home Solicitation Sales Act ("Act") most commonly applies to sales made in the consumer's home. However, the Act's right to cancel is present when the contract or offer is made anywhere other than the seller's place of business.7 The Act therefore applies to any place where the seller normally conducts business. 8 For example, one court has stated that the cancellation provisions would apply to sales made at a swap meet, or in an airplane.9

2. "Home Solicitation Contract"

Generally, a contract or offer in the amount of $25 or more for the sale, lease, or rental of consumer goods, services, or both, which is made at other than "appropriate trade premises," is a "home solicitation contract."10 The two most important exceptions to this general rule are:

Any transaction which is subject to rescission (cancellation) by the buyer under the federal Truth in Lending Act is not covered by the Act.11 This rescission right is discussed at III below.
Contracts with a licensed contractor for repair services are not covered if all of the following are true: (a) the contract price is $ 750 or less; (b) the buyer initiated the contract with the contractor to request the work; (c) the contractor does not sell the buyer goods or services beyond those reasonably necessary to take care of the particular problem that caused the buyer to contact the contractor and no payment is due or accepted by the contractor until the work is completed; and (d) the contract contains a written and dated statement, signed by the buyer, that he or she initiated the negotiations.12
B. Consumer's Right to Cancel
A buyer can cancel a home solicitation contract without giving a reason or showing any legal cause, and, without penalty or obligation, by giving the seller written notice of cancellation within three business days after the buyer signs the contract.13

To cancel, the buyer need only give the seller a written statement (for example, a letter or e-mail message) stating the buyer's intent not to be bound by the contract.14 If the seller has not complied with certain notice requirements, the cancellation period begins when the seller has complied.15 If the buyer's signature was produced by fraud, the cancellation period may extend indefinitely.16


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

pcplumber said:


> Regarding the 3-Day Right To Cancel and I am surprise how little everyone knows about it, the fact that so many people have not been giving customers the form and the fact that people are saying contractors need to give their customers both the state and federal forms.
> 
> That is ludicrous. The state and federal requirements are the same thing with the exception of a few words on the form that have been changed by the state.
> 
> ...


I'll wait until I get info from professionals


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> I'll wait until I get info from professionals


I am a professional!!!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

pcplumber said:


> I am a professional!!!


No your not. Your not a contract lawyer. You're a plumber


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> No your not. Your not a contract lawyer. You're a plumber


Dictionary Definition:

A professional is a member of a profession or any person who earns their living from a specified activity. The term also describes the standards of education and training that prepare members of the profession with the particular knowledge and skills necessary to perform the role of that profession. In addition, most professionals are subject to strict codes of conduct enshrining rigorous ethical and moral obligations. 

The only thing a person needs to do is read their state laws and when someone shows me where a state requires that a contractor (without federally regulated financing) give their customers both a state and federal notice on separate forms I will retire the same day.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

pcplumber said:


> Dictionary Definition:
> 
> A professional is a member of a profession or any person who earns their living from a specified activity. The term also describes the standards of education and training that prepare members of the profession with the particular knowledge and skills necessary to perform the role of that profession. In addition, most professionals are subject to strict codes of conduct enshrining rigorous ethical and moral obligations.
> 
> The only thing a person needs to do is read their state laws and when someone shows me where a state requires that a contractor (without federally regulated financing) give their customers both a state and federal notice on separate forms I will retire the same day.


You're not the expert nor are you a contract lawyer. Why do you have a problem with me wanting the info from a lawyer vs. a plumber?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

If my lawyer people come back and tell me all your mumble is wrong, would you tell me to not Believe them and believe you instead?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

This is the last I heard from her. All they do are construction contract forms. 

Thank you Mike for that additional information. 


I've sent it all to my attorney and I expect I'll hear back by no later than tomorrow.


This is definitely something for my newsletter and my website. Once we get it all figured out I'd love to credit you as being the one that brought this to my attention. Would that be okay?


Thank you again Mike! *Have a good evening!

Diane


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> If my lawyer people come back and tell me all your mumble is wrong, would you tell me to not Believe them and believe you instead?


Wishful thinking! 

What part of the words that come directly from the state of California need an attorney to understand?

These sentences are directly from California's website.

"The homeowner's cancellation rights are created by both state and federal laws."

The sentence implies that there is only ONE notice created by both the state and federal government. It does not say that the state and federal government have their own separate cancellation notices.

"The federal Truth in Lending Act – provides a three-business-day cancellation period to many buyers in situations where the home improvements are to be financed and involve a security interest in the buyer's home."

That sentence implies that federally regulated lenders had better watch their butts. Contractor infractions are handled by the Department of Consumer's affairs and the contractor's board. I am only guessing that lender's infractions would be handled by the Department of Consumer's affairs and Attorney General for minor infractions and by the federal government on a large scale. There is no way the federal government is going to get involved with a home improvement contract when there is no financing nor security interest.

"California's Business and Professions Code section 7163 – adds to the federal Truth in Lending Act's consumer protections during the three-business-day cancellation period, and in situations where the contract is not enforceable."


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

pcplumber said:


> Wishful thinking!
> 
> What part of the words that come directly from the state of California need an attorney to understand?
> 
> ...


What is it that you don't understand about I'm going to wait for the experts. You are no expert. You are a Google expert only. That's not enough for me.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I don't get my legal advise from idiots on the Internet.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Update please.

C'mon Mike...where did your contract writing sources end up on this?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Update please.
> 
> C'mon Mike...where did your contract writing sources end up on this?


The jury is still deliberating.


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