# Trim detail sans fascia



## crovello (Sep 14, 2009)

This trim detail is something this architect likes to use. When I first did a job like this I thought not having a fascia would make things easy. Boy was I wrong. It is a very unforgiving detail. Couple this with large overhangs and low pitch roofs and you have a nightmare on your hands. 








To help keep a straight line I have taken to using 7.5"x.5" clapboard for a starter course. I nail this to my roof sheathing and screw it to my soffit boarding to help tie things together. On the lower pitch areas I install copper flashing beneath it to take the stress off the clapboard. On the lowest pitch roof I have on this project (4" per foot), the trim extends well beyond the framing to meet the plane of the roofing. About four inches with nothing to nail the trim to. I asked the architect if using shingles for a starter course would be acceptable but she did not like the idea. I am worried that once winter hits and ice is hanging on the over hangs it could snap the clapboard and rip trim off the house. In this picture it looks like the trim is long but I can assure you it is on plane with the roof sheathing.








To complicate things further, I have a section with half round hanging gutters. I have used them on many jobs both with roof bar hangers and fascia brackets but I don't think I want to hang any more weight on this trim detail.

I must admit, I do like the overall look of the detail. What do you guys think?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

crovello said:


> I must admit, I do like the overall look of the detail. What do you guys think?




Wow. I mean... wow. Yes, I do like the look, but I have to wonder if that gal is in the latest edition of "Architects Gone Wild", with a black bar covering her face. I agree, there's no way I'd want to hang gutter off of that.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Pushing the envelope,:thumbsup:, nice work, GMOD


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Very nice work! I have seen a few of those up here in Scarborough, ME. It's a very nice look, and I thought the same thing, what a PITA that must be to do.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow, that is a cool look! It's not hard to figure out why that is not seen very often. As is usually the case though, nice clean lines are not easily achieved.:thumbsup:


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## N.Schiffer (Oct 24, 2008)

Disregard the last part of my post in the zip thread. Looks good, but I agree I wouldn't want to hang anything off that. However, I had a quick brainstorm and not sure it will work, with the roof started, but what if you made a bracket to attach to the roof and come past the soffit, (you could even add a screw into the soffit for soffit stability) and hang the gutters off that bracket? Without of fascia boards I feel the gutters are going to ruin the look, but not much else you can do. And this will allow a secure mount for the gutters.

I also just noticed you were in MA, where abouts? I see water... the cape?


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## Aframe (Mar 24, 2008)

crovello said:


> View attachment 24530
> 
> I must admit, I do like the overall look of the detail. What do you guys think?


 Nice work there.

Although it would ruin the clean line between soffit point and shingle line plus add $$. Maybe bend up some copper flashing (or heavy alum.)with a hem open just enough to grab the soffit point (1/2"-3/4") with the top leg long enough to get back to some solid nailing. 

For the gutter, might have to go with custom heavy brackets to get out far enough and not fold under the weight of a gutter full of ice.

Other than having the arch. design and sign off on the critical connections I see how you can be worried about owning that detail, especially on such a low slope.

Andrew


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## crovello (Sep 14, 2009)

Aframe said:


> Nice work there.
> 
> Although it would ruin the clean line between soffit point and shingle line plus add $$. Maybe bend up some copper flashing (or heavy alum.)with a hem open just enough to grab the soffit point (1/2"-3/4") with the top leg long enough to get back to some solid nailing.
> 
> ...


When I started the roof the first thing I asked the architect was if I could add a lead coated copper custom drip edge to stiffen things up and hold the straight line. She would not have any of that. The architect is the one that came up with the clapboard starter strip. I would normally use shingles for a starter course but with this detail the roof edge is so prominent the unevenness of the shingles butts did not look great. I even did a section with them and took a picture but never bothered to send it to the architect because even I could see how much nicer the clapboard looked.

As far as the gutters go, I only have two short sections to install. These are over the main doors of the house. The rest of the water runoff will drip into a stone drip trench that the landscaper will be installing. (looking for landscaper in Wareham area, anyone?) One gutter hangs of a nine pitch roof, this won't be bad. The other lands on a four pitch roof, this is going to be trouble. 

I have always bought my copper gutters from Clasicgutters.com . I will look over their web site for other hanging options. I guess I could have something custom made but it would have to be very heavy to support the gutter without putting stress on the soffit trim. This idea did get the wheels turning in my head though. I can picture some large decorative bracket that projects off the roof as aposed to a bar hanger that you want to disappear.

As far as where this project is, it is in Wareham Ma. The water you see is the opening of the Cape Cod Canal.


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## carolinahandyma (Jan 6, 2006)

Looks interesting.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

very very nice work there,i wonder ,this looks like an old detail i wonder how it was handled in the past
no drip edge cold alow water to get blown right into the soffit


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## Aframe (Mar 24, 2008)

One thing about using claps instead of shingles for the edge is with enough weight the claps will just break on a grain line.

Maritime semi alum here, got tired of mopping.


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## leakygoose (Dec 14, 2007)

Just another reason architects should be required by law to have actual hands on experience. Dumb Dumb Dumb 
Someone needs to grow some balls and slap the idiot architect for this one but as usual everyone is trying to appease the incompetent arrogant designer. Looks cool, I have to agree but.

Not to bash your work ,your doing a great job and should be proud of your work but lets get real ,you know what the winter will do to that detail and some moran from an insurance repair company [handyman or whatever] will have that butchered up in no time.
Have the architect sign off on this and take all responsibility,this is not going to last.

Just read this over ,sorry for the negative.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

Aframe said:


> Nice work there.
> 
> Although it would ruin the clean line between soffit point and shingle line plus add $$. Maybe bend up some copper flashing (or heavy alum.)with a hem open just enough to grab the soffit point (1/2"-3/4") with the top leg long enough to get back to some solid nailing.
> 
> ...


Or,
Come up with a design for a decorative copper bracket that could be bolted to the underside of the facia at the bottom of rafter tails, and cradle the gutter.

Unique designs complications require unique solutions,so it will be interesting to see how this gets done.

Very nice work BTW.


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## bmaurice (Sep 15, 2009)

Just curious, why did you use zip system for the roof and not the walls?


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## RobQuillin (Oct 27, 2009)

Interesting detail. I was wondering if you ever considered having some copper or heavy aluminum bent up that would allow the metal to extend down from the roof structure down to the eave and then have the gutter molded into the flashing. That way the metal is anchored and it can be attached to the soffet and the gutter is molded right in so all you need is a bracket strap to extend from the front edge of the gutter under the shingles and anchor to something solid. I don't know if that would work but it was just an idea. If the shingles covered up the upper part of the flashings then all you could see was the gutter.


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

:thumbsup:I like the look!...Nice work 

I guess you'll know next spring how things held up.

I was wondering if you could possibly use galv. plumbing straps screwed to the backside of the soffit the bent over and up the roof sheathing??


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## crovello (Sep 14, 2009)

bmaurice said:


> Just curious, why did you use zip system for the roof and not the walls?


I have been doing work with this architect for many years and she is dead set against any OSB product. The problem here was the engeneer involved in the project insisted that all roof sheathing be T&G or to block every joint. So with a little begging she gave me the OK to use it for roof sheathing. I could not find 5/8" fir plywood at any local lumber yard.

It is my first project using the product. I like the fact that it is nearly water tight once you aply the tape. I didn't like the fact that my face was nearly bleeding from the razor sharp chips flying out of my circular saw :blink:. I learned to always keep my safety glasses on. 

Dave


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## crovello (Sep 14, 2009)

WNYcarpenter said:


> :thumbsup:I like the look!...Nice work
> 
> I guess you'll know next spring how things held up.
> 
> I was wondering if you could possibly use galv. plumbing straps screwed to the backside of the soffit the bent over and up the roof sheathing??


Most of the roofs have a steep enough pitch, I don't think I am going to worry about it. The trim that only extends and inch or so past the framing if very solid. It is the several lower pitch dormers that need to be fortified with something. 

A metal strap would work but I would not used galvanized metal. With a house right on the ocean it would be rusting in a couple of years. I will use some type of copper flashing running the full width of the trim but with such a shallow pitch I wonder how much I will benefit from this. 
I know they sell copper straps with holes punched in it for hanging pipes. This could be something I could use. I really want something I can fasten into the leading edge of the trim. I don't think I would get much holding power fastening into the back of 3/4" PVC.


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## RobQuillin (Oct 27, 2009)

I just had a thought. Is that Azek that you are using? If it is then could you make wedges following the pitch of the roof down and glue them to the back of the trim board. Then it would give you something solid to connect a strap to connect the azek wedge and the roof sheething together.


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## crovello (Sep 14, 2009)

RobQuillin said:


> I just had a thought. Is that Azek that you are using? If it is then could you make wedges following the pitch of the roof down and glue them to the back of the trim board. Then it would give you something solid to connect a strap to connect the azek wedge and the roof sheething together.


Hmmmm, why didn't I think of that:w00t:. What ever I use for straps would be much more effective if I fill that triangle in with solid blocking and an Azek block glued in with Bond & Fill would be perfect. 

I was concerned that whatever strap I used would just stretch with such a shallow pitch but I think this is much less likely if filled in solid plus I would have much more meat to fasten to.

Thanks for the tip. I will take a few pictures when I get to this and post them up.

Dave


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