# Could you build this



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Hmmm, I thought Tamarack was the "cypress for the rest of us"?


It would be if I could get a decent source close to me, it all seems to go for pulp wood around here.


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

Man, that's gonna look terrible built from pt lumber.

If he didn't like pvc I would have priced boral or mahogany.


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## kingcarpenter (Jan 30, 2015)

From the pic they look like water traps. If thats the case just give him a yearly visit price.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

The "guy" insisting on PT is the homeowner:



> Guy says he wants them built out of pressure treated so they won't rot.


Sales technique is simple: Look at the first contractors quote - knock 500 bucks off, and say "whatever you want buddy - nice velvet Elvis ya got hanging on the wall - start Monday?"

Any shyster can pull that routine.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

pinwheel said:


> Why didn't you sell him on a naturally rot resistant wood like cypress, cedar or redwood? That could have for sure been built from one of those woods.


To be honest, I've never used any of those. Cedar rarely used around here. Pvc is much more common and a product I'm familiar with. I'd rather quote something I know.

Plus I'm sure the pricing using cedar would have been similar.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

hdavis said:


> Poplar rots easily.


The most common alternative here is pine and that rots pretty easy too.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

Is that house in Nova Scotia? That area has a lot of 100+ year old coastal homes, no?

What did they make their exterior trim out of? I'll bet you my life's savings it wasn't PT or PVC.

Oh, and OP, if you're not familiar with the concept of schadenfreude, that's what you're feeling. It's delicious.


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

Easy Gibson said:


> Is that house in Nova Scotia? That area has a lot of 100+ year old coastal homes, no?
> 
> What did they make their exterior trim out of? I'll bet you my life's savings it wasn't PT or PVC.
> 
> Oh, and OP, if you're not familiar with the concept of schadenfreude, that's what you're feeling. It's delicious.



Probably old growth hemlock I would imagine. Big difference between that and modern farmed lumber.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

Easy Gibson said:


> Is that house in Nova Scotia? That area has a lot of 100+ year old coastal homes, no?
> 
> What did they make their exterior trim out of? I'll bet you my life's savings it wasn't PT or PVC.
> 
> Oh, and OP, if you're not familiar with the concept of schadenfreude, that's what you're feeling. It's delicious.


Oh, no doubt material choices and craftsmanship back in the day were different (and better) around here. But that was back when (comparatively speaking) the province had money. Not so much anymore. 

Most of the 100+ year old homes here are resided with cheap vinyl with some vinyl windows tossed in. I've seen renovations done to some of these places where all the original moulding get replaced with 2 3/8" mdf moulding. Disheartening to say the least. 

Hell, I was two years in the trades before I ever used pine on a job. Everything before was mdf. Most people won't pay for more than the cheapest crap here.


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## whatswithit (Jul 11, 2015)

Some times you have to give them what they want and make that money and if there might be an issue because of the way he wants it done then put it in the contract to cover ur butt. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Tough to say what they used in Nova Scotia houses, but they used cedar for their wooden boats - same as here. I'd expect it varied by location and time frame. I've seen cedar for exterior wall studs and pine for interior walls before - a lot of people used what was easy to get.


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## madmax718 (Dec 7, 2012)

PVC has a reputation among people as being "cheap plastic". Thats really the reason why.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Nobody talks about Cypress on CT. It's a very good wood.


Frank Lloyd Wright used cypress for his single walled assembly constructions that he invented.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

madmax718 said:


> PVC has a reputation among people as being "cheap plastic". Thats really the reason why.


Not around here. The mentality of most is "plastic is fantastic!"


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

madmax718 said:


> PVC has a reputation among people as being "cheap plastic". Thats really the reason why.


What people are these?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> What people are these?


The ones that wouldn't spend that kind of money on a deck.


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## gates559 (Jan 15, 2009)

Im from Nova Scotia, They used to use Douglas fir and hakmatakquite often. 
It lasted a hundred years with some paint on it. pvc probably will break down long before that.

Why try to talk someone into something they dont want. Make the recommendation and then listen to their response and price what they want, than make the money.:thumbup:


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

gates559 said:


> Im from Nova Scotia, They used to use Douglas fir and hakmatakquite often.
> It lasted a hundred years with some paint on it. pvc probably will break down long before that.
> 
> Why try to talk someone into something they dont want. Make the recommendation and then listen to their response and price what they want, than make the money.:thumbup:


Because pt would look like crap. 
My reputation for doing good work is more valuable than the 1-2k I'd make on a job like that. I quote for quality and if they don't want it then they can go elsewhere.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

gates559 said:


> Im from Nova Scotia, They used to use Douglas fir and hakmatakquite often.
> It lasted a hundred years with some paint on it. pvc probably will break down long before that.
> 
> Why try to talk someone into something they dont want. Make the recommendation and then listen to their response and price what they want, than make the money.:thumbup:


Also, Douglas fir is a west coast tree. There's none in NS (Alberta is as far east as it grows)


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

SamM said:


> Also, Douglas fir is a west coast tree. There's none in NS (Alberta is as far east as it grows)


Ipe doesn't grow in North America, but I bet you could get it if that's what the job called for.:whistling


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

How do you know the guy that won the bid is doing it out of PT?

Also you probably lost the bid due to price, not material selection.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> How do you know the guy that won the bid is doing it out of PT?
> 
> Also you probably lost the bid due to price, not material selection.


Material selection would dictate price.

I can tell when I bid a deck job who is bidding PT versus composite.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

pinwheel said:


> Ipe doesn't grow in North America, but I bet you could get it if that's what the job called for.:whistling


Yeah, but we're taking about the trim on the hundred+ year old houses. I doubt they were shipping in Doug fir on those.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

SamM said:


> Yeah, but we're taking about the trim on the hundred+ year old houses. I doubt they were shipping in Doug fir on those.



And that's where you would be wrong. Wasn't no doug fir grown in central United states, but most of the buildings built in the late 1800's was built with it. Full trains full of building supplies were shipped all over the country even back then.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

pinwheel said:


> And that's where you would be wrong. Wasn't no doug fir grown in central United states, but most of the buildings built in the late 1800's was built with it. Full trains full of building supplies were shipped all over the country even back then.


Maybe there, but I would doubt much was used in ns. The lumber trade was huge here until the early 1900s. Most of BC's lumber (Doug fir ) was shipped on the Pacific, and when the cross country rails were built, our lumber was being shipped to BC and sent around the Pacific as well. It wasn't until the 1930s that west coast production exceeded east coast.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Hmm, Doug fir was used in NS, long time plenty.

http://www.timberhart.com/pages/timberframersdouglasfir.html

http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p110056


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Sawmills sold their product all over 100 years ago, as long as there was rail service and a big enough order. Mill buildings and other large projects would get SYP and Doug Fir (and other products) in from where ever.

I think the one doug fir beam link is from a new reno - they weren't built like that in that time frame. The other looks to be resawn doug fir, most likely from something like a mill building that was torn down and the beams were reclaimed. 

I have some "American Builder" magazines in PDF from ~100 years ago, and the saw mills from across the country advertised nationally. Up in NS, there wasn't much need to go far afield for house lumber, there were plenty of mills not too far away. Wood flooring is a different story, at least around here.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Hey, I'm just trying to stir up chit here. No need to get all factual and everything.

Yeah, that one FH is a modern fir user. (but the house is old)


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

As I said, I doubt much was used here. Not saying some hasn't come across. But I highly doubt that when our lumber mills were running full tilt people were buying doug fir from BC just to put up some painted trim. 

However, it's an interesting thing to study. 👍


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Around here you'll sometimes run across houses that used leftover materials from local commercial builds. If a local painter was doing the paint, there might end up being some houses with the same color scheme.:whistling


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I also heard about a pipe fitter at a ship yard who plumbed his house with brass pipe pieces short enough to fit under his shirt....

Brass couplings every 1-2 feet.:laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Hey, I'm just trying to stir up chit here. No need to get all factual and everything.
> 
> Yeah, that one FH is a modern fir user. (but the house is old)


Have pity on the guy - he just spent the winter with snow taller than he is.:sad:


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

hdavis said:


> Have pity on the guy - he just spent the winter with snow taller than he is.:sad:


Hey, I'm on his side. No way in effin ell I'd do PT at any price.

But I will also say, I've ripped off ancient trim, from dentils to corbels to sub-fascias and rakes - and you never knew what it was going to be. pine, oak, poplar,,,,

I will also say, that I liked to use 4/4 1x6, 1x4 rough-sawn for all corners & window wraps on vinyl sided parts of some new homes. Some homeowners thought that "made" the house - some thought it was a cheap trick and a huge maintenance liability.

People are just weird.
(shrugs)


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

SmallTownGuy said:


> and you never knew what it was going to be. pine, oak, poplar,,,,


Some of everything - just like today, except older.:laughing:


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

hdavis said:


> I also heard about a pipe fitter at a ship yard who plumbed his house with brass pipe pieces short enough to fit under his shirt....
> 
> Brass couplings every 1-2 feet.:laughing:


I already bragged how my old man built our first home from pallet lumber, didn't I?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

SmallTownGuy said:


> I already bragged how my old man built our first home from pallet lumber, didn't I?


If you did, I missed it. It must have been something to repair.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> I already bragged how my old man built our first home from pallet lumber, didn't I?


Years ago I was in TJ doing volunteer stuff and we were doing a survey in an area settled by what's called down there 'paracadistas', parachutists because people just land on a spot and build. You can imagine what the 'houses' looked like. 

In the middle of all that chaos was a pallet house that was one of the most well thought out houses I've ever seen; a very meticulous or OCD person had built it, taken the pallets and cut between the supports so every plank was about 18" long........


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Immediately post WWII. Lumber shortage I imagine. There were a number built. This is the Greatest Generation remember, and they had gone through the Depression and WWII and salvaged EVERYTHING.

I was 5 when we moved from there. My memory of what the place looked like is only of old black & white photos. It was finished nice, with knotty pine cupboards and on walls. 1-2 bedroom maybe?

Now, were these pallets like the ones HD gets redimix bags on? The old man worked at the GMC truck plant, could well be much larger pallets. 
I don't even know if he & his buddies knocked the pallets apart or used them as is.

The only other thing I remember from then about the place, was that the old man had decided to disassemble his Indian so he could get some parts chromed inside the plant. 

Typical kraut that came from generations of tool & die makers and gunmakers, so the joinery would have been beyond what even most carpys would expect.

No power saw either.


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## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

That was a no win situation for you, If he took your recommendation and anything slight did not come out to his satisfaction, it would be all your fault for talking him into something he did not want.

Good on you for not taking the work.

I would love to see you talk with him 9 months after the project is done and ask him his opinion of the new look.

Can PT even be painted before winter? how long would it take to dry out enough to take the paint? Will he have to look at unpainted PT for a long time here? I hope he holds payment until the job it painted and complete.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

Pearce Services said:


> That was a no win situation for you, If he took your recommendation and anything slight did not come out to his satisfaction, it would be all your fault for talking him into something he did not want.
> 
> Good on you for not taking the work.
> 
> ...


PT won't be able to be painted for at least a year. I suspect it'll get painted right away though. 

I don't know what happens when you paint pt too soon. Never seen anyone do it before.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

SamM said:


> PT won't be able to be painted for at least a year. I suspect it'll get painted right away though.
> 
> I don't know what happens when you paint pt too soon. Never seen anyone do it before.


Depends on the moisture content, climate and season, but in most cases 6 months and it should be dry enough to coat.


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## mezzfloors (Jun 19, 2015)

SamM said:


> Out of pressure treated wood?
> 
> Hard to see in the pic, but the square posts on top are rotting. They look like they were built out of MDF. Went in to quote replacing them.
> 
> ...


Did you explain why you quoted pvc? What did he say or did he just look elsewhere?


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

mezzfloors said:


> Did you explain why you quoted pvc? What did he say or did he just look elsewhere?


Of course. I explained that pt wood couldn't make the same profiles or look as good, and that pvc would last forever. 

The issue was simple. He's cheap.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

This article will give you some ideas of how to skin the cat.



http://gpaelgin.org/wp-content/uploads/exterior-trim-details-that-last.pdf


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

gates559 said:


> Im from Nova Scotia, They used to use Douglas fir and hakmatakquite often.
> It lasted a hundred years with some paint on it. pvc probably will break down long before that.
> 
> Why try to talk someone into something they dont want. Make the recommendation and then listen to their response and price what they want, than make the money.:thumbup:


PVC can also be painted to better withstand the sun AND the paint is reported to hold up better on the PVC being the material doesn't have moisture in it. I use Versatex on many of my homes and they report paint will last 3-5 times longer on it than most woods. Also, consider the bonding paint can have on PVC vs wood.


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## Bigheadnick (Jan 14, 2013)

It definitely CAN be done with PT but I wouldve recommended pvc as well. Obviously the homeowner liked the other guys price , the difference obviously in the material cost. That being said however there are still many "old school" folks who refuse to use many of the newer more durable products. Looking at them the way an old man looks at modern music lol.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Can't see how bad it is, but did you offer a repair instead of a replacement?

Also, ask him:
"Do you mind if take some measurements, just in case?"
"Just in case why?"
"Just in case it you call me to redo it since it will be PT."

Then, maybe get into the conversation about saving some $$ by doing it in pine, but that you'll seal all the end grain, etc.


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