# "Emulsifier" paint additive?



## steve-in-kville (Aug 30, 2006)

I have some old aluminum siding to paint. Its pretty chalky. I asked my SW rep about the proper prep work and he tells me to power wash the siding clean (no scrubbing or chemicals). Then add some "emulsifier" stuff to my first coat. No primer, just treat the first coat. 

Can someone explain what this stuff is and how it works??

steve


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## rws (Nov 26, 2004)

It is called EB emulsabond.Made by Flood co.You still need to wash with bleach and soap.Put the EB in the 1st coat only.It works very well.


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## gideond (May 17, 2007)

Personally I'd recommend a product like Zinsser Peel Stop over Emulsa-bond. Peel Stop is a clear bonding primer designed to seal any remaining chalk residue as well as glue down flaking paint. It's easier to use IMO since EB doesn't work so well in these newer heavy bodies paints. With high solids and 100% acrylic formulations, these fast dry paints also get gummy quickly when adding EB. The product does work just fine for what it is suppose to do. It's just not as easy to use in today's paints. Flood hasn't reformulated it in...well probably never.


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## Wolverine-Eric (Apr 9, 2007)

You have to be careful when adding 'emulsifiers' to paints. First, what they are trying to do is combine 2 things that don't like to be combined... like oil and vinegar. You are trying to combine paint (higher surface tension) and chalk (lower surface tension). So, for those to combine properly, you have to reduce the surface tension of the paint with emulsifier (really surfactant) so that it will want to wet out the substrate and the chalk. If the wetting action is good enough, the paint will work it's way under the chalk and force it into the paint. 

Paint companies sell small quantities of D.O.S.S. (Dioctyl Sulfosuccinate) and label it as an emulsifier. The drawback is that these types of materials promote foaming and foam stabilization. Other than the fact that you don't need any of this is subsequent coats, they don't want you to add it because of foaming issues. If you put it in a coating that has a really good defoamer it may be alright.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

If it was all that great wouldnt the paint maufacturers add it to their products and charge more?
Sometimes the old ways are the best, saving some time is good but not when it is at the cost of quality.


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## Joewho (Sep 20, 2006)

Wolverine-Eric said:


> You are trying to combine paint (higher surface tension) and chalk (lower surface tension). So, for those to combine properly, you have to reduce the surface tension of the paint with emulsifier (really surfactant) so that it will want to wet out the substrate and the chalk. If the wetting action is good enough, the paint will work it's way under the chalk and force it into the paint.


Wondering if the old addage that brushed work is always better fits in here? Working the paint into the chaulk?


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## gideond (May 17, 2007)

The other thing about EB is that it will CAUSE further chalking if you arent' careful with it. That the other reason it says only in the first coat. If you don't overcoat with a pure paint then it will chalk much faster than the paint normally would. Flood stains have EB built into it, which means it goes in all coats of the product. The biggest drawback to Flood stains IMO is they chalk rapidly.


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## paintr56 (Feb 4, 2005)

steve-in-kville said:


> I have some old aluminum siding to paint. Its pretty chalky. I asked my SW rep about the proper prep work and he tells me to power wash the siding clean (no scrubbing or chemicals). Then add some "emulsifier" stuff to my first coat. No primer, just treat the first coat.
> 
> Can someone explain what this stuff is and how it works??
> 
> steve


Steve I have been useing Emalsa Bond from flood for many years. It is a great product. It is designed to pull the chaulk up into the product and then make it part of the finish. one quart per gallon works great. I have never had a problem. I always try to remove the chaulk first by pressure washing but it seams with aluminium siding some chaulk just moves around. Clean mildew or other contaminated areas as you normaly would. The main reason it says first coat is it is hard to keep the ebond completely mixed with the paint this is not a problem other then it will occasionally show glossier streaks when it dries. Finish coat solves this. 
I have never noticed additional chaulking when I go back and check previous jobs.
I wouldn't brush aluminium siding just because of brush marks I spray.
BM paint does have an emulsifier built in and they do charge more don't know if that is why. I would think most paints don't have it added because on most jobs it is not needed.
I have used peel stop for flaking paint and it seemed to work. The big advantage to Emalsa Bond is the first coat adds color you only need to paint it twice to get two coats with peel stop you need Peel stop plus two coats.

Jim Bunton


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## steve-in-kville (Aug 30, 2006)

Thanks for the great replies. My SW rep tells me that once the treated first coat goes on, I shouldn't waste time (like days) applying the second coat, or the first coat will fail.

steve


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## Wolverine-Eric (Apr 9, 2007)

> If it was all that great wouldnt the paint maufacturers add it to their products and charge more?
> Sometimes the old ways are the best, saving some time is good but not when it is at the cost of quality.


People aren't willing to pay for it. You painters are like little birds singing... cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap... lol... :jester:

Also, this addition promotes foaming. So, once you add it... it makes it almost impossible to ever shake it on a paint shaker. So, if the paint settles, any virorous stirring or shaking creates ALOT of foam which is stabilized so the bubbles do not break easily. If applied on the wall... welll... it's a foamy mess. 



> Wondering if the old addage that brushed work is always better fits in here? Working the paint into the chaulk?


Absolutely!


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

Wolverine-Eric said:


> People aren't willing to pay for it. You painters are like little birds singing... cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap... lol... :jester:
> 
> Also, this addition promotes foaming. So, once you add it... it makes it almost impossible to ever shake it on a paint shaker. So, if the paint settles, any virorous stirring or shaking creates ALOT of foam which is stabilized so the bubbles do not break easily. If applied on the wall... welll... it's a foamy mess.
> 
> ...


It is not the painters who are cheap it is the customers.
If a customer wants to pay for the best of everything then I am more then happy to apply it, but they want to save a buck and expect us to figure out how we can do it for less money. I just sprayed the front of a 2 story aluminum sided house for $1000, labor only. For $200 more I would have supplied better paint and gave them a 5 year guarantee, but instead they spent $300 on Dutch Boy colored water and recieved no warranty. The guy thought he was getting a better deal by buying his own paint, so in 2 years he will need it done again and probably will have a new idea about how to save money and out smart the painter.
Customers want things cheap and some of them can not be made to believe that all paint is not created equal.


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## Tmrrptr (Mar 22, 2007)

Modern, you are absolutely correct !

I have a strong preference for using the best products I can find, and will do prep work 'til the cows come home, then get out the lights and work some more... if the client is willing to pay me a living wage.

It is clients that do not wish to pay.
My obligation is to advise them of my experience.
They make a choice.

I will spray coolaide from the back of my truck at 25mph if that's what they are willing to pay for. Their choice.
r


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## paintr56 (Feb 4, 2005)

Wolverine-Eric said:


> People aren't willing to pay for it. You painters are like little birds singing... cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap... lol... :jester:
> 
> Also, this addition promotes foaming. So, once you add it... it makes it almost impossible to ever shake it on a paint shaker. So, if the paint settles, any virorous stirring or shaking creates ALOT of foam which is stabilized so the bubbles do not break easily. If applied on the wall... welll... it's a foamy mess.
> 
> ...


I have never had the foaming problem when stirring the ebond in but I have never tried shaking it. As far as cheap goes My paint costs a little more then the ebond it truly doesn't affect the price much at all. I will stick with it isn't called for or beneficial in all situations.

Jim Bunton


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## Joewho (Sep 20, 2006)

Again, I ask, is this where the good old fashioned, muscled, brush work comes into play?

I've never used an emulsifier, just brushed the paint in really well. Same prinicple? (sp)


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## Joewho (Sep 20, 2006)

Again, I ask, is this where the good old fashioned, muscled, brush work comes into play?

I've never used an emulsifier, just brushed the paint in really well. Same prinicple? (sp) I've never rolled paint on to siding, aluminum, wood or vinyl without brushing it in.


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## Wolverine-Eric (Apr 9, 2007)

> Again, I ask, is this where the good old fashioned, muscled, brush work comes into play?
> 
> I've never used an emulsifier, just brushed the paint in really well. Same prinicple? (sp) I've never rolled paint on to siding, aluminum, wood or vinyl without brushing it in.


Yes... but... a little bit of emulsifier will make life a little easier... (less is more...)


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## paintr56 (Feb 4, 2005)

Joewho said:


> Again, I ask, is this where the good old fashioned, muscled, brush work comes into play?
> 
> I've never used an emulsifier, just brushed the paint in really well. Same prinicple? (sp) I've never rolled paint on to siding, aluminum, wood or vinyl without brushing it in.


I prefer the look of spraying on aluminum and vinyl. Emalsa bond makes that possible.

Jim


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## Joewho (Sep 20, 2006)

paintr56 said:


> I prefer the look of spraying on aluminum and vinyl. Emalsa bond makes that possible.
> 
> Jim


 You know what, I saw a house with some good oil gloss sprayed on. It was impressive. Always been a "do it by hand" painter, spraying only when I have to. Up til now, I've been able to side step it. Looks like I can't any more. Been paing a lot of attention to the sprayer posts.

Thanks for the pointer.


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