# Paving companies all over the place on price...



## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

The last few days I have been collecting prices on paving a 5000 sq ft driveway to finsh up a project. I am just collecting prices for the client.

The drive way is 5000 sq feet and has beligum block curbing installed. It needs to be graded and rolled. We will not need any base material. Its already on site and just needs to be graded.

All companies are quoting 2.5 inches of I-5 rolled too a 2 inch finsh. Plant for asphalt is 2 miles away.

Company # 1 Is at 16k. Does great work, have dealt with them before. I know it will come out good. Says with asphalt and fuel it will cost him 8k. Then 4k a day in labor.

Company #2 Is at 14k. They are a spanish run company out of val pak. Two guys come to the job today to look at it. They hop out of the car and ask me the sq ft. Then they proceede to punch #s into there 'watch calulator" and spit out the price without even walking the entire driveway. They said they would prep it then pave in 2 weeks. Says its not good to prep then pave right away because it could settle.

Company #3 Is at $9k. I know nothing about this company. Says they have to do it next week or will not be able to do it for 3 weeks due to large commerical jobs.

Whos ripping me off? Whos loosing money? How many tons of asphalt should it take? And what should I pay?


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

the sweetness of low price never equals the bitterness of poor quality. you just have to figure what your freak factor is...if the high number has given you no grief, know what their workmanship is like, no comebacks/callbacks...contractor #2...will he bid 1 price, bill yet another? will he propose an ! 1/2" mat, give you 3/4"...#3? i'd avoid them like a festering leper.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

in fact...after looking at those pics..i've got to add one more thing...one of my greatest sources of pride...is driving relatives/friends by our old jobsites....or jobsites that my dad did 60 years ago....and say, yeah, we were part of that, still looks good, huh? ruskent.....that's a nice looking home in those pics. you want your name tied to something that won't sell itself it 2 years if nothing else than by the looks of the quality of workmanship?


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

Day I know you get what you pay for. I am just collecting prices for the client. I might just rip up the 9k one.


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Where's Vinny ??


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## SpecOne (Apr 3, 2008)

I'm sure you're client will want your input on which company to go with. I'd go with what you know. The 16K seems like you would have no qualms about recommending them. The 14k may be all right but didn't put forth a lot of effort into evaluating and estimating (of course they may have enough experience to be able to just look at a job and name the price). Forget the 9K and avoid it like the plague.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Judging from the plain box of a house (despite the size) this looks like an opportunity to upsell since it makes the difference since at worst, it makes the difference between the 14k and 16k bids insignificant.

With that setting, layout and exposure of the driveway surface, is seems like a shame to throw in a temporary drive with the fine edging already in place. Pavers are a natural. If it was a flat driveway, it might be a different story.

That site and surrounding homes can certainly justify lanscaping and an upscale driveway if the owners can afford it.


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

Rusk is that your equip. you give your men to do a job with ( 2nd pic, right hand side ) ? It's going to take forever to move that pile of process. :laughing:


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

ruskent said:


> All companies are quoting 2.5 inches of I-5 rolled too a 2 inch finsh. Plant for asphalt is 2 miles away.



Do you really think 2" will last? My asphalt guys would end up with 5" total, 3" base course asphalt and 2" topping.

I agree with Concretemasonry, that project would look spectacular with pavers.

And I think jimc is right, you need to quit worring about fuel costs and get a couple larger pieces of iron! :laughing:


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

I came up with a price of 15,500, Cost of the job was 11,500k


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## TARGUY (Dec 19, 2007)

I don't know what part of the country your from, I'm from pa. I've been paving for 30 yrs. my bid would be for 2 1/2" of a blacktop base coat and a 1 1/2" of a wearing course total 4" for a price of 11,000. and when im finished (I would turn down your $$ TIP just so i could get more work from you) :thumbup:


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

TARGUY said:


> I don't know what part of the country your from, I'm from pa. I've been paving for 30 yrs. my bid would be for 2 1/2" of a blacktop base coat and a 1 1/2" of a wearing course total 4" for a price of 11,000. and when im finished (I would turn down your $$ TIP just so i could get more work from you) :thumbup:


 
I would give it back so that when I call you you would drop what your doing and come do my work and tell everyone he pays well and on time. and that you would go the extra step everytime to make me look good to my clients

I came up with 11,500 and added 25 percent for overhead


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## TARGUY (Dec 19, 2007)

I forgot, your looking at 125 tons at my thickness. :thumbsup:


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## Vinny (Jul 21, 2007)

ruskent said:


> Whos ripping me off? Whos loosing money? How many tons of asphalt should it take? And what should I pay?


Rusk, I came up with $11,827.00 to pave only @ 2 1/2 inches.

To spread your processed stone, fine grade and compact the base before we pave would be an additional $1390.00

@ 2 1/2 inches its 70 ton including 5% waste factor and as tar guy said with an additional 1 1/2 inch top you'd need another 58 ton but I didnt put anything in for that in the above prices Though that would be a nice spec.

16k and 14k. Shi^, I wish I was in that market. LOL. The prices have gone right in the toilet around here and everything costs more than ever. 

Thats a fairly standard production driveway so I figure a 45% margin (about an 82% mark up) on my cost of goods for that type of job. 

70 ton @73/ton=$5110 ($73/ton is the shelf price and O&G doesnt give discounts)
4.5 hours to pave including mob @310.00/hour =$1395
cogs = 6505 @45% margin = $11,827.00

Fine grade is 5 hours for a prep crew = $765.00
cogs= $765.00 @45% margin = $1390.00

I would guess, 9k is on the low side and he'll have to take it out on the job some how. Thats also a bunch of crap about having to do it right away or they cant do it for 3 weeks. If he's in such high demand he should raise his price, smart a$$. 

The 14k guy doesnt know how to add and doesnt need to measure??. I wouldnt trust them. They are hot dogs and you wont be able to get a hold of them if there's an issue. 

If you know the 16K guy he probably is worth it. 

Not knowing your market and local cost levels I can tell you this time of year you will get prices all over the place because its spring low ball mania season. I've got GC,s and home owners telling us what our price should be. 

My sales person went out on an estiamte the other day and the guy told him our price needed to be X to get the job. I told my sales person, get back in your car and drive away with out saying another word, not even good bye.

BTW, nice curb job. Are you doing that or is that subed. What are you doing that at??


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## arconstruction (Feb 21, 2008)

*price for job*

I came up with similiar numbers $11,250


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

TARGUY said:


> I don't know what part of the country your from, I'm from pa.




Where about ??


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## TARGUY (Dec 19, 2007)

Central,pa


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

One would think that the numbers should be pretty close but I had about the same spread for concrete drive, plumbing, electrical, painting............


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

TARGUY said:


> Central,pa


Anywhere around Carlisle or Chambersburg?


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## Vinny (Jul 21, 2007)

Teetorbilt said:


> One would think that the numbers should be pretty close but I had about the same spread for concrete drive, plumbing, electrical, painting............


Yea, your right it should be, but as I said to Nick once before, there is no standard way of estimating anything, there is no formal education that carry's the same standard across the country, and everyone view's thier buisness differently.

For instance, we have a very large competitor out here (for us in Connecticut it starts with a G and ends in an O) that is percieved to be one of the best in my market, though they put little investment into thier people or marketing and even less true value into a job. They do mostly large commercial and use driveways as a lost leader to keep thier crews busy. So the consequence to me is while this probable 50 million dollar per year buisnes operates on a 20% gross profit, neting I'll guess less than 2%, they price thier driveways at the same margin as thier commercial work makeing it almost impossible to compete with them on price alone. 

A side story: my estimator went to look at a job the other day in Greenwich for a GC. I generally will not even bother to look at a job for a GC I dont know but we had a little time and my estimator is new and eager, so I sent him out on it. We gave the price. It was a 9000 sq.ft. job that needed an overlay on a binder installed last year. Tha would be about 100 ton @ 1 1/2 inch. @ $73 per ton thats $7300.00. It needed a little cut back at the garage and road for tie in and a little shim as well so our sell price was about $16,500.00. That very large competitor I mention above: $8000.00. Like I said, he does them as a lost leader. I dont know. Maybe he'll thin it to 1 inch and buy the asphalt over the state line where its about $5.00 per ton cheaper. But he still wont over come his base costs. I have watched his crews, thier no quicker than mine and they are mostly union. Its crazy.

The fact is though if they only did 12,000 dollar average size jobs they couldnt operate at such a low margin. But because of thier size they get the walmart effect. i.e. if you sell enough of something at a very slim margin you will eventually profit. 

Though I will also tell you they have filed chapter 11 three times in the 23 years I have been doing this. They just sprout up under a new name and go right back to work. They make some nominal adjustment to thier old name and run with it while screwing thier creditors. 

I, on the other hand, view my buisness completly differently from most in my industry. I base my price on several factors.
1) ROI: If I'm gonna spend the money anyway, can I make a better profit putting in the market, going to Atlantic City, or reinvesting in my buisness? And what should that amount be?
2) What are my costs and what do I need to get as a sell price to make a reasonable profit?
3) Does my liablility exist in my material, my labor, or both?

So at a 45% margin for average jobs, a 50 or 60% on small jobs, and a 35 to 40% on large jobs I get the returns I need and cover my liable exposure per job.

Then you get the clown like Rusk said about the guy that came out there, asked what the sqaure footage was, used his watch calculator, and gave a price per square foot. For them, I would have told them it was 3000 square feet and screwed them real good because idiots like that should not be, and dont deserve to be in any buisness, much less mine.:clap:


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