# porcelain tile waterproofing



## John77 (Dec 24, 2010)

Have 3 houses with 200 sf patios (out doors) that seem to be leaking.
They have porcelain tile that has not been sealed and leak.
What is the best waterproofing/sealant that I should use.
Located in southern california
Would appreciate any help/advise
Thank you.
john


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Are you a GC or tile contractor?


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

the tile is leaking?:blink:


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## TileLady (Apr 8, 2008)

I doubt he's either Angus
:whistling


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

He's a builder, shouldn't he ask his tile guy?

*snif* *snif* Do you smell what I am smellin'? Smells' like a DIY'er.

John, How about a little more info in your profile (location, company name, website address, blood type, hat size, just the basics...) and introduce yourself to the rest of us in our Introduction section. Make a lot of us feel a whole lot better.

Rob


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## John77 (Dec 24, 2010)

Had a tile guy do the installation. As with some contractors, in the southern ca area. He is no longer in business and has moved out of state. He also did the travertine inside the house.
Don't know what a DIY is that you refer to Rob.
Just need some help and advise.
Also the general who was building the house, just had surgery(lapband) and will be of no help or some time.
The houses are located in Signal Hill,ca.
Any suggestions or referrals will be appreciated.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

John the fact that the tile isn't sealed has absolutely nothing to do with the leaks. Sealing tile and tile joints does not waterproof anything.

I suspect you are a handy man at a condominium developement maybe and obviously not an experienced contractor.

These are second floor (or higher) patios or what. If they are at ground level why is leaking an issue?


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Jheeeeeezh!

John you are all over the place. I see I was right in the bullseye again.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f38/leaking-porcelain-tile-90337/#post556281


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## John77 (Dec 24, 2010)

*Thank you for replying.*

I am a developer that hired a general contractor to build 6 houses in Signal Hill ca. He in turn hired a tile guy as well as other subs.
As I said in a previous e-mail. The tile sub can't be located and reportly moved to AZ. The General just had surgery friday so of no help to me.
I will not be doing the work but most likly need to hire someone to do it.
However, as some contractors prone to do at least locally. (surly not some one on this forum)
All I'm asking for is some suggesstion or advise that knows porcelain tile and can reccomend sealant.

John


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## John77 (Dec 24, 2010)

*answer to BUD Cline*

I went to the DIY section and asked the same question as ROB mentioned it.

The houses are 3 levels.. there is a patio on the front of the houses above the garage and a patio on the second level.
All patios are above ground.

Thank you


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

A balcony deck needs to be waterproofed before the tile is set---

There are several companies that make waterproof membranes for this kind of situation--

Latacrete makes Hydroban--a paint on membrane used to waterproof pools,fountains and showers--before tiling

Schluter and others have waterproofing in rolls that is secured with thinset --before tiling--

I think the installations will need to be redone----sorry to bear bad news--Mike--


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## John77 (Dec 24, 2010)

*waterproofing deck*

Mike;
Susposely, we used schluter on top of thin set before the porcelain was installed.
If from what you and Bud Cline seems to be saying is I might have leaks at the edges or thru the grout.
I am thinking that maybe I should chalk around the edges of the patio and the sheet metal at the rain gutters.
I still think I should seal the title. (don't know with what, which was my orginal guestion)
Guess I can go to my orginal flooring supply house (Big D) where I purchased the rolls of schluter. Or the local Home Depot
Thank you guys for pointing me in the right direction.
John


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

If the deck was waterproofed--I think you are on to the problem----Inadequate flashing or edging---

This sure would be easier to figure out in you had pictures of the waterproofing before the tiles were installed----

Sealing the grout is a wasted effort----the sealers are only designed to make the grout easier to keep clean--not waterproof---

With the bottom of the porch covered with stucco there is no easy way to see if the seal is bad at the house --or weather the water is rolling under the edge----

Tough job there----I wish I had an easy answer for you---Do you have progress pictures?

You may need to post them over at DIY as you need 15 posts here to post pictures--I'm oh'mike over there----


Good luck----your local tile supplier may be able to put you in touch with a setter that specializes in balconies---He (or she) might be able to diagnose the shortcomings of this installation.---Mike--


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Note that this same topic is being addressed (almost word for word) over at the DIY site which is where it belongs to begin with in my opinion. Once John has his problem solved he'll never be back to contribute to anything here.

Now we find out that Schluter (something) was used. Was it Schluter DITRA or was it Schluter KERDI or was it the Schluter deck system? This is like pulling teeth trying to get information.

If it was a simple DITRA job:
Were the DITRA seams addressed and waterproofed?
How was the DITRA treated at the edges?
What was used for flashing up the walls?
How high does the flashing go behind the wall covering material?
How were the wall/floor junctures addressed?

I can answer all of those questions (sight unseen) if you care John.

Stucco walls - RIGHT?


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

I'm trying to be nice here--it's Christmas----You and I both know that there is no waterproof membrane 6 or 8 inches up behind the siding(stucco)--Or that it was continued across the face and sides of the balcony---Then under the stucco at the walls----

I think that ,about now,he has figured it out all by himself-----Merry Christmas ,Bud and good will to all!


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> You and I both know that there is no waterproof membrane 6 or 8 inches up behind the siding(stucco)--Or that it was continued across the face and sides of the balcony---Then under the stucco at the walls----


Yes we do don't we? But, John seems to be a little slow on the subject. There that's as nice as I get - even at Christmas time.

*"HAPPY HOLIDAYS"*


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## John77 (Dec 24, 2010)

*leaking patios*

Bud and Mike, Thank you for your comments.

Bud,, Thank you for your comments regarding the tile situation at hand but you sure make rude comments about things when you have no knowledge about things. "That I will never be back to contribute to anything." You don't know that.

You don't know that but if it pains you so much to be nice, then shut up. I hate it when people are trying to be nice and someone makes assumptions. 

Mike; I spoke with the general contractor, who oversaw the job on these last 3 houses. we did use the schluter deck system and used Ditra as well as Kerdi based on where it was the steps, porches or the patios.
Schluter was also used inside for the floors,bathrooms and kitchens. (travetine)

In his opinion, the tile guy may not have waterproofed adquately the portion where the patio meets the house under the flashing. He wants to caulk the entire section where the tile meets the flashing under the stucco. And also the edges of the deck as it may not have been caulked at the edges where the rain gutter installer the sheet metal. Water is getting under the patio into the stucco.

Maybe it is something as simple as that..

Anyway, I sure appreciate your's and Bud's help.
Thank You
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and your familys.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

John,

Here are some facts that you may want to consider.

1) We have little to no information on you. You have failed to give any detail information in your profile and have failed to post on the introduction page. These are red flags to members at CT that you are not who you say you are. Real contractors have no problem telling everyone who they are, where they are and what they do.

2) You are supposed to be a builder or GC and yet you are asking a question that your tradesmen should be able to answer. If you have lost that man, then you need to look in your area for a qualified individual to look at the problem and assess the fix. Again, something that a real contractor would do.

3) When I said that you may be a DIY'er, you replied that you didn't know what that meant, yet you posted this very topic on DIYCHATROOM.COM. Again this is a phrase that any real contractor would know. It means Do It Yourself'er, or a HO that works on his own home.

4) You are looking at fixing a leak with caulk. I am sorry, but caulk is a preventative measure, not a fix. To truly fix the leak, you need to know exactly why it is leaking and what is the source of the leak. Only someone on site can tell you this.

I would suggest that you introduce yourself in the INTRODUCTION section of CT and update your profile so that we have more details about you and your company.

Have a great Christmas!

Rob


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## John77 (Dec 24, 2010)

*update*

TNT;
Thank you for your criticism.
1.changed /updated information.
2.my general contractor is out of hospital and will have someone drive him to site next week. Tile contractor reportly has skipped and is now in another state.
3. After you mentioned DIY, I went to the other room and asked the same question? No intent to deceive anyone but if you feel that way so be it. I was new to this site and a little suggesstion would have been helpful, but it seems as thou I was trying to steal the plans to a bomb. Hopefully, I have changed my information to your sastifaction.
4. The general contractor says we used the schluter deck system,on the patios, steps, including the floors for the travetine.
He suggests the leak must be in the flashing where the patios joins the houses, then runs under the patio to the ceiling underneath. He thinks it might be clauking that either was not installed or incorrect.
5. Sometimes, us developers have to rely on the generals and their subs to do the job correctly. But, I have learned that I need to know as much as they do in order to insure the job is done correctly.

Hope I haven't offended you in any way and also hope no one has revealed any trade secrets because I didn't do the special hand shake or enter the correct room or know the correct termonlogy or initials.

Any way Thank you for your help, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

John,You seem to be a stand-up guy.Welcome to CT.

And Merry Christmas!


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

John77 said:


> TNT;
> Thank you for your criticism.
> 1.changed /updated information.
> 2.my general contractor is out of hospital and will have someone drive him to site next week. Tile contractor reportly has skipped and is now in another state.
> ...


Maybe I am missing something because of the electronic media, but you kinda have an attitude.

The contractors here are here for a reason. To talk to other contractors, not DIY. DIY often come in here to pick our brains and muddy up the conversation. You need to be a little more thicker skinned if you are going to participate here at CT.

I have tried to give you some friendly advice and let you know why, since you asked, people are a little skeptical at your question and lack of general knowledge.

Stick around and prove some of our suspicions wrong.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Maybe I am missing something because of the electronic media, but you kinda have an attitude.


Rob, I think maybe you are. You laid it on him pretty well, and he neither whined nor went off the deep end snapping back. Time will tell, but I say we give him a chance. :thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> Rob, I think maybe you are. You laid it on him pretty well, and he neither whined nor went off the deep end snapping back. Time will tell, but I say we give him a chance. :thumbsup:


I don't think that what I said was any where near laying it. You may have me confused with Bud. I simply gave reasons why there was some skepticism.

I am not the only one that questioned whether or not he is legit. In fact, I am the only one giving him advice on how to earn trust.

I don't need him insinuating that I coped an attitude or his smart a$$ comments about "it seems as thou I was trying to steal the plans to a bomb", "hope no one has revealed any trade secrets because I didn't do the special hand shake or enter the correct room or know the correct termonlogy or initials."

All he had to do was saying no harm intended, info updated, hope this helps.

I even ended with asking him to stick around and prove us wrong. I would consider that giving him a chance, wouldn't you?


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

if there are knee walls bordering the patio instead of hand rail then i would imagine that the water is leaking where the tile meets that wall i would use a good silicone all the way around the edge if thats the case


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

bluebird5 said:


> if there are knee walls bordering the patio instead of hand rail then i would imagine that the water is leaking where the tile meets that wall i would use a good silicone all the way around the edge if thats the case



You need to waterproof _under_ the tile in wet locations to avoid these issues.


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

he said there was ditra underneath already


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

bluebird5 said:


> he said there was ditra underneath already


If moisture is getting under the tile and there is waterproofing, the problem is with the design/implementation of that waterproofing. Adding silicone to the mix is like throwing pebbles in the Grand Canyon.


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

true dat but if there is a wall instead if a typical hand rail and no flashing around the edges and the patio is not sloped and there is not where for the water to go i would say it is leaking aroung the edges


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## John77 (Dec 24, 2010)

*Can provide additional info next week*

Thank you for giving me directions. Something i failed to mention is that have just had a major storm with over 7 inches of rain.. Some of the comments were very helpful and most appreciated. If anyone has any interest, I will keep you updated as I solve the problems. Seems I have some more waterproofing problems which I will have to correct before I put the last two houses back on the market.
Wish some of you guys were in this area as I would like to contract with you to solve my problems.

Thank you again


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

bluebird5 said:


> true dat but if there is a wall instead if a typical hand rail and no flashing around the edges and the patio is not sloped and there is not where for the water to go i would say it is leaking aroung the edges


Completely understandable. However, if the waterproofing was implemented correctly, that situation...even with 7" of recent rain should not have leaked, period.


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

if you haven't sealed the tile either do that too you can check it by pouring a little water on the grout when it is dry and see if it beads up or absorbs it tile lab is affordable sealer with no smell and approved for outdoor application but porcelain will not take sealer if it is glazed so just seal the grout lines


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Attempting to seal porcelain tile will not change the situation. Sealing cementitious grout doesn't solve the problem either.


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

your right bring in the bulldozer money is no object if the water can't get in the top it can't go out the bottom


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

bluebird5 said:


> your right bring in the bulldozer money is no object if the water can't get in the top it can't go out the bottom


:blink:
I _think _I'm reading your post correctly. Can a brother get a period every now and then?


It's not my fault if the original installation was faulty. If tearing it apart to get it done correctly is the answer....that's the answer. 

Silly little band-aid fixes are _not _the way to go.


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## DeckExpert (Dec 26, 2010)

*Porcelain Tile Deck Leaks*

I read the threads from everyone on the leaking tile decks...there are many reasons why they leak. 

1.) Improper sequencing of the construction
2.)Improper installation of the waterproofing
3.) Improper installation of the flashing.
4.) Contiguous building materials actually leak instead of deck?
5.) Poor workmanship. 
5.) All of the above. 

All I seem to do these days is rehab tiled and waterproofed decks done wrong by cheap sub contractors. Especially tile decks. Central Coast Waterproofing is very busy these days, thanks to all those cheap GC's, developers and waterproofers out there.

Latest projects include-

Aptos CA-2 year old tile deck, leaked from day one, due to improperly installed drains. 22k in damages
Arroyo Grande CA 12 year old deck with improper edge flashings, leaked, 12k for deck rehab and then we found 33k in HIDDEN damage 
Santa Barbara-4 year old tile deck installation failes due to improper drains. 18k in damages.
Brentwood CA Roof top tile deck, 3500 sq feet leaks into million dollar conddos. 75k to me to install flashing, Desert Crete and new stucco, another 60k to demo and remove the schluter ditra, underlayment and felt. 

Pending Jobs-
Yosemite 1200 sq foot deck, substrate improperly installed, nailed using bright shiny nails, no ringshanks. Sub floor expansion/contraction is now popping the nails out. Demo all, down to joists, resheet, install new flashings, Traffic coating. Estimated at 44k. 

Hollywood-28 condos with decks sloped back to wall. Developer facing 5500.00 per deck for repairs...

At a website I manage/own, I have lots of FREE info on tile decks, waterproofing of decks and more. DeckExpert.com

You can do it right, or you can do it cheap, but you can't do it right cheaply.

John Oglivie of Duradek wrote an exceellent article on tile decks...do a search for it at deckexpert.com. There's another 5-8 great articles on the subject...

For what it's worth, sounds like a total tear off and redo.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

*Odd Question, Use Siloxane!*

Use any waterproofer with siloxane. It is tried and true. But the problem is probably more serious and will require a proper tile waterproofing installion with approved membranes and gutter systems, check Schulter for some innovative products.


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## Frankwhoa (Oct 20, 2010)

Grout sealant is not going to help you John.


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## John77 (Dec 24, 2010)

*leaking porceline tile decks*

Thank you for all the replys. After the big storm, I chalked a lot of the area. It appears possibly due to the faulty past work of my contractor, He did not chalk the posts for the wrough iron bases and where the patio joins the houses. I was able to stop a lot of the leaking. We just had another rain this past Sunday and Monday and almost 90% of the leaks are gone. It was only about an inch of rain.

I discovered that a lot of grout has cracked and purchased 2 cans of Quartz lok and will put it over the cracked grout.
Does anyone have any experience with this product? 
BIG D flooring says it will do the trick. That is where I purchsed the Schulter system.

As soon as i regrout the tile, I will have all edges and flashing reclauked.
Then will water test to see if I have solved the problem.

Again thank you for the help
John


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

John77 said:


> I discovered that a lot of grout has cracked and purchased 2 cans of Quartz lok and will put it over the cracked grout.
> *Does anyone have any experience with this product?*


:shifty:
http://www.contractortalk.com/search.php?searchid=3316299

_"Prior to regrouting applications, remove 1/8” of old grout and any surface contaminants. Be sure to rinse any residual solvent/cleaner off grout joints, then allow joints to completely dry before re-grouting."_

_"Outdoor installations must be protected from moisture (rain) for 7 days. If rain is forecast within 7 days, protect by tenting the grouted area (at least 1 foot above surface)."_


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## John77 (Dec 24, 2010)

*re grouting using Quartz lok*

Thank you, good reminder, I plan to regrout today and then will use surface guard sealer after it drys.

Will post how it works after I am completed.


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