# Low Ballers



## TML (Apr 21, 2009)

Is it just me or is anyone else having problems sticking with there prices? I have found out recently that more people are low balling just to get work these days. A large number of possible customers don't care about quality and reputation, just the bottom line! I know that times have gotten tough but more and more fly by contractors are doing work for almost nothing. I'm trying to stick to my prices, but materials are going up and my family needs to eat. I cant figure out how some contractors are doing work for so little money. I live in a fairly small area so I know what people are paying for materials but these guys must be doing roofing and siding jobs for like $100.00 per day just to get the job. Customers don't care about what it takes to have a legit business, just the number on the estimate! :furious:


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## Osito (Mar 4, 2008)

Your right, I quote jobs and the first thing out of the HO mouth is "Is that the best you can do"? Of course that is the best price. Why would I not give the best price. The do not understand what it cost to run a business.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

More so what I have noticed is that our clients have been backing off from projects they want to do, doing only what they have to do. They may want a kitchen makeover but need a roof. They do the roof and the kitchen will wait for now. 

The same rules apply to us in uncertain times. We need to get what we need or get out of business. It is up to us to educate them on the perils of the lowballer and sell them on our services. If they want the project for less than work with them to reduce the scope and along with that the cost but not your rates.

A large number of clients still care about quality and reputation when it comes to maintaining and improving their single largest investment. 

Good Luck
Dave


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## tyler durden (Jan 12, 2008)

Give them your lowball price with the cheapest material and cut corners.
And tell them that is is there cheapest option up front.

Then give them a better option that you recommend and cost more.
You will need to back up why it is better to go with your recommendation.

They will feel better with options.
I hate getting quotes, if they feel you are a straight shooter then they may just sign on the spot.

This is sales 101 baby!:clap:


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## wellbuilthome (Feb 5, 2008)

Things are tight here also . Ive lost 6 jobs in a row roofing. siding and bath rooms (4) . There is a guy here doing bath rooms for 4500 bucks . He rips out the tile and tub sink and toilet . leaves the moldy sheet rock , Tiles over the old floor tile. He doesnt even change the valves on the sink and toilet . He calls this a new bath room ? People just love it because ITS CHEEPPPPPPP :thumbup: John


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## BreyerConstruct (May 22, 2006)

We're feeling it too.

Leads are up... but it's Service Magic & Yellow Pages tire kickers... the quality clients are there as well... but taking forever to make up their mind. 

Meanwhile, I'm running around locating the shoppers! I've never been beat by 25%-50% like this! I know what I lost last year... I can't go any lower!
Ah, well. We must press on...


~Matt


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## fez-head (Mar 15, 2005)

tyler durden said:


> Give them your lowball price with the cheapest material and cut corners.
> And tell them that is is there cheapest option up front.
> 
> Then give them a better option that you recommend and cost more.
> ...


I agree, give them the options and most of the time they will relize the value in paying a little more. 

I will never forget the day my old boss told a client flat out *"Well do you want it done right - or would you like to have it done halfass?"* ......this from a guy that rarely cursed or raised his voice to anyone. The client quickly decided that he did not want it done halfass and came up with the money to do it well. 

It is amazing how those 2 options can quickly change dynamics of the situation. 

_EDIT: He was not saying that any other contractors where halfass - only that there was a differance in cost to do things very well versus shoddy._


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## wellbuilthome (Feb 5, 2008)

I have had 3 bids sitting on my desk for a week . These job are real nasty . Last year i wouldn't have pulled in the drive way to talk with the owners . I just dropped the bids in the mail box tonight . I hope they don't call me  John


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Pre-qualifying is very important, now more than ever.

You really need to ask important questions before you agree to meet with a new customer.

Ask them if they've done any research or talked with any other "building professionals" (don't say contractors) about their project. If they say "yes", just *casually* ask who they talked with almost as if you don't care. You know who your peers are (at least you should). If they aren't specific or rattle off names you don't know, it usually means they are calling A LOT of people because they are price driven. If you are the first person they called, then you can casually ask how they found you and how they are seeking out people to give them proposals.

Now, ask what their time frame is. If they say "ASAP", then ask them if they'd mind waiting for the duration of your backlog. Let's say you have a six week backlog, you can follow up with "well, thankfully the quality of the work WE do is always in high demand, so generally clients don't mind waiting for us to get to their project." 

That line right there tells them you are no schlump and you won't be the cheap guy. Politely.

Ask them if they need you to create a budget or if they already have one set that you need to fit in. Then, just ask what it is. When phrased like that, most people will just tell you.


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## Elite_Drywall (Feb 23, 2009)

I agree, these are hard times for contractors. I have lost about 36 jobs now, but I always stand my ground when it comes to pricing. some HO's just want the cheapest bid, I just tell them "quality you pay for once, cheap you pay for several times". I had a HO tell me I was very expensive, she wanted me to do the job for half. She told me "dont you know we are in a bad economy, I can get it done for half by someone else" I smiled and said "go ahead". I hate when HO's try and take advantage of these hard times. They ask, why can he get it done for half of what you are charging? Well I dont live with six people, in one apartment and I dont pay $200 dollars for rent. I have a family to feed and I have bills to pay. We will get through these times, all you contractors just dont stoop to those low ball offers! Next time a HO asks if you can do it for less?, ask them if they can do the job they do for less? and look at their reaction.:blink:


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## FrankGi (Apr 22, 2009)

Elite_Drywall said:


> Next time a HO asks if you can do it for less?, ask them if they can do the job they do for less? and look at their reaction.:blink:


:laughing:
So true! Good one.
FrankGi


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## mikec (Jan 2, 2007)

I lose job after job to low ballers. Wanna hear a story? The other day I'm in the yard at Harvey. A guy is there picking up plywood. He comes over, and asks if I need to sub out any roofing. Now i have never subbed out a roof, but this guy speaks perfect english, but appears to be from a country south of here if you know what I mean. So curiosity gets the best of me, and I ask how much he gets a square. He says $80 for walkable $85 for steeper! I ask how much to tear off? He says that is tearing 2 layers and cleaning up! Says he's got 8 guys, comp, and liability.
Names a few of the bigger companies around here, that he subs roofs off of.
I know where one of these companies is doing a roof, so i drive by, there he is with his crew.
Now I know his crew must be ilegal. He can't pay them decent, and have comp on everyone at those rates, but this is what i'm up against.
These other companies are large compared to me, with show rooms, and billboards, and they are lowballing me. WTF are you suppose to do?


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## gutterman51 (Apr 22, 2009)

If you consistently do the job right, you will gain a reputation. Word of mouth is your best form of advertising. the sloppy, low-baller will also gain a reputation, which is really important, especially in tight times like these.


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## olduser565 (Apr 22, 2009)

Too much info...


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## mikec (Jan 2, 2007)

I understand that, but i saw what these guys were doing, and they weren't taking any short cuts. The companies they are working for have good reps, and have been in biz a long time. I can understand why these companies sub to this guy, at those prices I could lower my price, and make the same if not more subbing it to them than I do doing it with my guys.
As far as selling on merit, from what I have seen this spring so far no one cares. Other than a few return customers, everyone wants the bottom line.
Even referals price shop. "so and so highly recommended you, but blah blah llc can do it cheaper." Guys here say you don't want those customers anyway, but ALL customers are that way.
Most Ho's don't gice a rats azz if there are illegals on there roof, christ some brag about it! "yeah I got a good deal, guy has a crew of mexicans". They think they're Tony freakin Soprano, because they hired a guy with mexicans!


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## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

mikec said:


> I understand that, but i saw what these guys were doing, and they weren't taking any short cuts. The companies they are working for have good reps, and have been in biz a long time. I can understand why these companies sub to this guy, at those prices I could lower my price, and make the same if not more subbing it to them than I do doing it with my guys.
> As far as selling on merit, from what I have seen this spring so far no one cares. Other than a few return customers, everyone wants the bottom line.
> Even referals price shop. "so and so highly recommended you, but blah blah llc can do it cheaper." Guys here say you don't want those customers anyway, but ALL customers are that way.
> Most Ho's don't gice a rats azz if there are illegals on there roof, christ some brag about it! "yeah I got a good deal, guy has a crew of mexicans". They think they're Tony freakin Soprano, because they hired a guy with mexicans!


 I'm glad my area clients aren't like that. I don't know if it's because I am in the midwest but we don't have that mentality.


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

mikec said:


> I understand that, but i saw what these guys were doing, and they weren't taking any short cuts. The companies they are working for have good reps, and have been in biz a long time. I can understand why these companies sub to this guy, at those prices I could lower my price, and make the same if not more subbing it to them than I do doing it with my guys.
> As far as selling on merit, from what I have seen this spring so far no one cares. Other than a few return customers, everyone wants the bottom line.
> Even referals price shop. "so and so highly recommended you, but blah blah llc can do it cheaper." Guys here say you don't want those customers anyway, but ALL customers are that way.
> Most Ho's don't gice a rats azz if there are illegals on there roof, christ some brag about it! "yeah I got a good deal, guy has a crew of mexicans". They think they're Tony freakin Soprano, because they hired a guy with mexicans!


Mike, roofing is just a tough, commodity-based trade (for the most part). Not to oversimplify, but your typical HO doesn't care about their roof because they never think about it. Plus, roofers have pretty much created a really nasty intra-trade climate with the "price per square". So much so, that the price has become the only tangible thing most HOs can appreciate.

Obviously, this is a generalization, but it's pretty accurate. I mean no disrespect to roofers, either.


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## SmellofUrethane (Oct 28, 2008)

Very true Greg Di

"Plus, roofers have pretty much created a really nasty intra-trade climate with the "price per square". So much so, that the price has become the only tangible thing most HOs can appreciate."

I think floor guys fall into this catergory as well. HO don't care about the sanding process, finish being applied, nor the cleanup of dust- just the bottom line square foot price...Oh and will it be shiny?


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## VMFehr (Feb 7, 2009)

The tire kickers have strapped on there boots and come out of the woodwork here, seems like i'm doing a ton of quotes but the works not being done by me or anyone else. They've offered a tax rebate on reno's in my area but if anything that's made it worse.


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## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

We are probably competing against:

Out of work, blue collar factory workers who know nothing, other than the empty refrigerator and cupboard, with kids and a wife looking to them . . . 

Other trades who think they know (roofing, siding, windows, baths, decks, etc. . . . .

Underemployed or un-employed techs who know the trade . . . but not the business . . . .

Legal and illegal immigrants from all countries and all walks of life looking to gain a foot hold . . . .

It's a challenging year, and we're finding that strong referrals and testimonies to our workmanship are not the bulwark against low price that we enjoyed for the past few years.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Lowballers are always out there. It doesn't matter if the economy is booming or not, it's just a part of every day life.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

Tell me about it. I drove all they way out to Bridgewater Saturday to check out a roof leak to find there was no step flashing for the front and rear right side dormers. about 26 lf of step flashing total to install. Left a price got home in time to have the guy call me back with another quote for $160
A hundred and sixty dollars!!!!!

and the guy last week who was getting three quotes for a single roof jack replacement. and he wanted a written estimate.


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## buildpinnacle (Sep 2, 2008)

My thought was that the 'supposed' bad economy might choke out the pickup and ladder guys. I'm not certain that it hasn't increased people coming into the trades. I had two guys come up to one of my projects last week were my guys were laying stone veneer. I noticed them and waited to see if they would come inside the building to speak with me or if they would go straight up to my men. They were professional enough to do so and they asked if the stone masons were subs or inhouse labor. I explained they were my inhouse labor and he asked if I would be interested in bidding a job. I normally don't do any subwork, but I was intrigued by this situation so I played along. Long story short, both guys came to E TX from big D having been laid off as Supers for large const companies. They decided to go after the big bucks and start their own business. I'm all for that except for the fact that they told me they got a bid to lay Austin Stone and the guy wanted $8,500 and they thought that was outrageous. For gigs I made three phone calls for pricing, figured my labor hours, marked eveything up and told them I would be just under $10K. Of course, I threw in the little things like license, insurance, etc. They were pretty surprised by my numbers and actually made the comment they thought I would be cheaper since my men were inhouse. I took a few minutes to let them know how much I hope they make it in the biz and that I would be glad to help in any way I could to acclamate them to the market. Following this comment, I let them know that the first mistake they made was trying to find out how much stone was going to cost them AFTER the contract was signed and the slab was being poured in a couple days. 

This scenerio answers most of the Low Ball questions. It is simple uneducation by these contractors...for the most part. I think if they spent a month on this site and seriously tried to learn how to grow their businesses they would be bidding at the levels most of us are. I don't know how else we get the word out.


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## deckndave (Nov 24, 2008)

Heres my two cents on this subject. Last year I gave a guy a rock bottom deal on a deck. I needed work and I wanted to sell the job right there on the spot at the first meeting. He asks if I take credit cards. I say no. So I give him 10 days to mail me a check and the signed proposal. After they get their finances in order he sends me back a check for the $250 I require as good faith downpmt plus a copy of the signed proposal...along with a few "minor" changes <---Tongue firmly in cheek. He adds this and that and then puts a note in there that they have agreed to hire me for $750 less than I bid. They almost acted as if they were doing me a favor. When I called them to say I would not accept it for "their" price they had a total fit. Their excuse was that they were negotiators and that everything is negotiable. I mailed their check back to them. My guess is that I was $3k less than some of their other bids. :thumbup:

I gotta say 95% of the time the people I deal with are genuinely good and reasonable people...these people were absolute _uck_ng loons. Seems like the worse the economy gets the more loons crawl out from under their rocks.


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## deckndave (Nov 24, 2008)

Greg di, I tried qualifying a lead I got from an ad I put on craigs list (big mistake). The job was 30 miles away so I made sure to ask reasonable questions before I put any time and gas $$ into this. After a couple Q's about project specifics and if he had recieved other bids, the guy becomes quiet and evasive. After I ask 1 or 2 more Q's he just goes ballistic and starts cursing me up & down. Not the kind of fella I want to do business with. So I hung up on him. I actually got a laugh from that one.


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## GAK (Apr 22, 2005)

Maybe I am just really lucky.
I really don't see this year as being any different from any of the last 5 years.
At this time of year there are a lot of contractors coming out of winter with no work and no funds. They are desperate for work and are overreacting and lowering their prices to try to get a lot of work and generate some income. What they are don't realize is that if they bid a lot of work at low prices and get it all they will be working for the next month or more for low pay and they will dig another hole that they will have to dig out of all year long. By the end of the season they will be lucky to be paying their material bills. It's a cycle that goes on every year. Never fails.
I let the competition bid whatever it wants to. I just keep working at selling at the prices I need to get. I will get my jobs. We will stay busy and in another month when all the low-ballers are busy as hell making no money things will return to normal. They will raise their prices, they will still be lower than me but I don't care. I will get my share of the work. 
No company in my area could possibly do all of the work around here. I doubt if any one company does more than 10%. I suspect that I do less than 1% of all of the potential work. I have cultivated a good clientele that know that we are a legit company that delivers consistent quality service. Most all of my work is referal. 25% is from previous customers.
My advise?
*Don't worry about what everyone else is charging.
*Understand what you need to charge to stay in business and to pay yourself a wage commensurate to your skills and efforts. -More than you would make as an employee working for a competitor.
*Sell your work for what it is worth. Try to sit down for every bid and educate the customer. You know you can't get every job, you couldn't get them all done in a year if you did. Just concentrate on educating and selling. You will get your share of work.
*Don't ignore the small jobs. Price them so that they are worth your time. So much of my big work comes from getting my foot in the door with the small stuff.
*Get your name out there. Network. Show up on time. Explain what you will do, and then do it. Properly, cleanly and promptly. Become the first person people think of when they hear the word roof. It doesn't happen overnight, it takes constant work but it will result in a business that doesn't worry about running out of work and lowering prices.
There is a lot of potential work out there. Go after the customer that pays for quality. Let the lowballers have the rest of it.
You can't beat them if you join them!


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## GAK (Apr 22, 2005)

Oops, I see my profile doesn't give my location.
I am in the Chicago suburbs. I do 95% of my work in my town and the town on the north and south of me. There are probably 100,000 homes in my 6 square mile home area. There are all levels of income. I am a one crew company(4-5 guys). After 15 years in business I have found a good niche. Still learning, always a challenge but secure in the knowledge that my work is out there. I just have to keep going after it.


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## master of none (Apr 27, 2009)

TML said:


> Is it just me or is anyone else having problems sticking with there prices? I have found out recently that more people are low balling just to get work these days. A large number of possible customers don't care about quality and reputation, just the bottom line! I know that times have gotten tough but more and more fly by contractors are doing work for almost nothing. I'm trying to stick to my prices, but materials are going up and my family needs to eat. I cant figure out how some contractors are doing work for so little money. I live in a fairly small area so I know what people are paying for materials but these guys must be doing roofing and siding jobs for like $100.00 per day just to get the job. Customers don't care about what it takes to have a legit business, just the number on the estimate! :furious:


You are so right...but on the other side of that is next year they will be calling us to come and fix it....


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## buildpinnacle (Sep 2, 2008)

master of none said:


> You are so right...but on the other side of that is next year they will be calling us to come and fix it....


I used to get irretated and mention that as I stormed to my truck. OK, at least I said it to my buddies later that night. I don't even worry about it anymore. I let them know that we do work one way...the right way. I tell them that if we are all paying basically the same price for the materials and close to the same cost in labor...where does that leave room for the price difference. They make it up on shortcuts, change orders, or quick fixes. There is no grey area in construction. It's either done right or it's done over.


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

buildpinnacle said:


> I used to get irretated and mention that as I stormed to my truck. OK, at least I said it to my buddies later that night. I don't even worry about it anymore. I let them know that we do work one way...the right way. I tell them that if we are all paying basically the same price for the materials and close to the same cost in labor...where does that leave room for the price difference. They make it up on shortcuts, change orders, or quick fixes. There is no grey area in construction. It's either done right or it's done over.


 Don't matter much in my area. They can all kiss my royal


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## Ashcon (Apr 28, 2009)

*new guy and canadian too!*

I agree with GAK it dosen't matter what the other guy is doing, I had one client that actually said to me "maybe we should wait until next year, next year there will be guys starving and i can get a better deal." So i reminded him that 8 years prior when he didn't want to wait for me to finish work on his mothers house; he hired a guy that was ready to start immediately! :furiousProbably one of the starving contractors now) After a couple of weeks of work, mostly tearing parts of the house apart with no real plan of action, this contractor took 10k and left. I got that contract and the latest one.:clap:


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## TML (Apr 21, 2009)

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with being out bid. Its part of the business. But I think that being out bid recently on a 50 square roof really set me off. 
Myself and other local competition have consistently been close in pricing for years. And when I say close I mean within $500-$750 on $10,000 roofs, not always that close, but you get the point. I Usually the first impressions or presentation wins over the customer.
Now back to 50 square. Its a ranch w/cedar shakes to be stripped, 7 skylites to be changed and 30 year arcs to be installed. I give my price and wait to hear back. The potential customer calls and says she going with another contractor. Ok. But she also says I was very high on my quote. Ok??? I hear through the grapevine, the other contractor used my bid for material and comes in $8,000 less. And heres the kicker, he says I can start tomorrow. I can't believe this doesn't raise a red flag to the homeowner. 
So sure enough he rolled in and met what appeared to be 15, yes 15, men from south of the border and did the job in 2 days.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

This year I've had more referrals than ever. My lead count is double last years. 
I have had 4 former customers.

The most common feedback: "Gee Steve, we really like you. We think you are the most professional and knowledgeable of all the (anywhere from 3 to 10) quotes we've had. However, so and so is (anywhere from 10 to 40% cheaper). Can you match his price? We'd really prefer you to do the work!"
Made an appointment with one fellow for tomorrow. He just called. He already hired someone else.

What are you going to do?


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## RenaissanceR (May 16, 2006)

*They're out there...*

[deleted]


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## nj handyman (Dec 10, 2007)

just got a call from homeowner with fire damaged two-family. he had a bid in hand for:

roof repair ( about 4 squares - with new ply )
remove fire damaged wood 
reframe ( quite a lot of work )
3 or 4 new windows
new floors where needed
remove asbestos
2 kitchens ( total gut )
5-6 bathrooms ( total gut )
all new electric
all new plumbing
insulation
drywall
refinish wood floors
remove load bearing walls
remove non-load bearing walls
remove smoke odor
enclose front porch
and the thousand other things required to get a cert of occ.
keep in mind that each unit is three floors - both units are extremely large.

bid amount = $62,000 BUT that does not include painting!!!

had to laugh. told him to call back when the guy walked out on him.


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## LennCAD (May 6, 2009)

Out here in Vegas there is a lot of companies who are pricing just enough to keep the company going and ride this recession. They just want to cover Materials, Labor and Overhead and not turn a profit.


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## wyoming 1 (May 7, 2008)

Ok I lost one today at a bid opening 3 of us bid on the project I was at $26,000 next was at $24,600 winner was at $18,000 nothing like leaving $6500 sitting on the table. They will be lucky to break even on the job. I do not what people are thinking you can go broke sitting at home there is no need to go out and work at it.


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## OW! My thumb (Feb 12, 2009)

This is kinda ironic. I just seen this thread, just now, and today, a few hours ago, I found out that the guy that under bid me on a deck by about 4500 ( and this was a TIGHT as hell bid on my part too,...no room for any error), got FIRED from the job.
I told my buddy (the GC) that he was WAYYYY too cheap. There was no way he could do it for that price. 
Seems like he couldnt after all.


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