# No return vents in upper floor of house? HELP!



## GQhandymen

The a/c come out cold out of all the 4 bedrooms in the upper floor of the house but the only return vent is in the hallway. During the summer it gets REALLY hot upstairs and i think it is due to no return vents except for the one in the hallway. Is there any way to fix this ... for a reasonable price? Any Ideas?


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## skcolo

I would need a lot more information to comment on this question.
1) is the return in the hallway on the second floor?
2) Do they sleep with the bedroom doors closed?
3) Is there enough insulation in the attic? At least a foot deep?
4) Is the attic properly ventilated? You need one sq ft of vent for each 150 sf of attic.

If the return is in the upstairs hallway and they sleep with the doors closed, you can cut in pass through returns over the bedroom doors. All this does is allow air to flow from the bedrooms into the hallway and get picked up from the return in the hall.

Otherwise, it's hard to add a new return. One time I used a laundry chute from the basement and we added a return to the second floor, but that was pure luck to have that available. 

None of this matters if the attic has four inches of insulation and no roof vents.


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## byoung

I also need to put more vents in my house. If I go out of my house, its hot but when I get in, I can feel its even hotter. Does anybody know where I can avail of good quality affordable vents? I most probably would want to enjoy watching tv without having to sweat like as if I had been running all day  I hope to hear from those with good suggestions soon


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## Doc Holliday

You can not mess up the static pressure (air flow) of a system by allowing the return air side of the system more breathable area. In other words you can add 100 return air vents on one system and you will cycle the air better (resulting in much more comfort) without thought to if the system will work right. 

You can have too little return air thus restricting the system and do harm but not too much. 

Go for it, add a return in each room you are having trouble with.

http://www.solutionsforair.com/dayton_content/pdfs/StaticPressure.pdf


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## Doc Holliday

Try this, leave all of the bedroom doors completely open during the day and see if the entire upper level stays a more comfortable neutral temperature throughout the entire level. If so then the addition of return airs in each room will do the job.


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## CompleteW&D

Years ago when I sold residential HVAC, I saw this problem all the time. Single return for the entire second floor, many times near the floor on a side wall. Usually when you see a return like that, it's nothing more than two joist spaces panned over to the return air drop at the furnace. Which by its very nature, may not be pulling much air. It will pull more air if near the floor than the ceiling because the return duct will be limited by the smaller stud space it spans (for the amount of air it pulls) rather than the joist space it pans. 

I forget the actual numbers, but a return like that is pulling a lot less in return air than what is being supplied to each of the bedrooms. During the heating season, that's not as much of a problem because the heat rises naturally and will tend to disperse easier because it's not as heavy as cold air. When your air handler is trying to "push" your conditioned air in the summer into an area that is starving for return, all bets are off. It just doesn't work very well as you are experiencing.

The laundry chute mentioned above was a gift. Normally, you don't have such easy options. In any case, you've got a lot of work, some expense and a little bit of luck needed for a workable solution. What I would look for is a closet that allows you to wall off one end to create a return air drop. One with room below it to extend the return air drop through the floor and over to the return duct at your air handler.

If you have such a closet, then half of the battle is won. At that point, you could cut in a large central ceiling return in the hallway of the second floor as centrally located as possible. Build a return air box above the opening tall enough to accommodate the properly sized flex return air duct going over to your closet R/A drop (having built the same R/A box in the attic over the closet drop). Be sure to pull the flex duct as tight and as straight as possible to make certain you get the best air flow possible. This flex duct should be large enough and/or sized so that it matches the R/A drop you build in the closet. I would probably even over-size the flex just a bit to maximize the airflow. 

Once that duct is properly sized, the duct board boxes and R/A drop in the closet are tightly sealed and everything is completely connected to the air handler (and you've insulated the bujeezus out of everything in the attic).... I would seal up the previous R/A duct. Be sure all of the bedroom doors are under-cut by half an inch or so, so that you get airflow under the doors when they're closed. Not a perfect solution, but it will be a whole lot better than what you are now experiencing. 

I can't stress enough that everything and I mean absolutely everything - must be sealed tightly and highly insulated for this solution to work properly. There is nothing worse than adding a return air system like this in a super heated attic with it not being properly sealed and insulated. If not, you'll just be making things even worse forcing your system to condition super heated air.

Good luck. :thumbsup:


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## CompleteW&D

Dang.... I was wondering to myself why I was answering a question about no A/C in Januray. Then, after I pen my eloquent response, I see the thread is from July and the OP looks to be a one post wonder. Guess that's what I get for being up at 4:00 AM unable to sleep.


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## Doc Holliday

Moisture content in the air would have to begin sh at 212 degrees, in steam form during the latent heat of evaporation. They say that a lightning bolt can super heat air (as it's five times hotter than the sun) so unless I'm missing something there is no way attic air can ever stand the chance of being superheated, unless the home is struck by lighting. 

Can you explain your theory of superheated attic air, please?


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## Doc Holliday

Here's a good study on superheat.
http://www.michigansteam.com/files/SUPERHEATED_STEAM.pdf


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## Doc Holliday

I'm not trying to be rude or a smart buTt, it's just that this particular topic, superheat, has always been a subject of particular fascination for myself.

http://www.weinstall.ca/understanding_superheat for air conditioners canada.htm 


Saturation is simply the term used to describe the point where a change of state in a substance is taking place. For water at sea level, the boiling temperature is 212 degrees F. Therefore, we say the saturation (boiling temperature) is 212 degrees. As soon as the temperature of the steam is heated above it’s “saturation” temperature, it has been superheated. Refrigerant that has boiled (turned into a vapor) at 40 degrees has a saturation temperature of 40 degrees. If the refrigerant vapor is heated to 41 degrees it is no longer saturated, it is then superheated by 1 degree. Remember, only a gas or vapor can be superheated. Superheat is any temperature of a gas or vapor above it’s saturation temperature.


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## CompleteW&D

Ok.... maybe "super heated" was a poor choice of words. How about *DAMN HOT*?!? :whistling

The bottom line I was trying to explain to no one in particular since this was a six month old thread and the OP probably never came back after posting.... was to make certain all R/A boxes and duct work in the attic was both tightly sealed and insulated. 

Why? because if it wasn't, you might be pulling a lot more return air from the upper level in my scenario, but if even a quarter of the air was being pulled from the attic because of poor seals on the duct work, then the air being returned to the air handler would be a lot hotter than it typically should be thus making the system work a lot harder than it needs to and losing some of the effect of improving the air balance in the upper level.

Geesh, I thought that was fairly clear.


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## Doc Holliday

One of us should really quit while we're ahead, bUt sInCe I knOw WhAt i'M taLkiNg aBoUt iT wOn'T bE mE. 

Stick to windows, friend.


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## ohiohomedoctor

Doc Holliday said:


> One of us should really quit while we're ahead, bUt sInCe I knOw WhAt i'M taLkiNg aBoUt iT wOn'T bE mE.
> 
> Stick to windows, friend.


Now thats the stuff that makes this site better than diy


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## Doc Holliday

I mean no harm to anyone, I'm just a playful kind of guy. :thumbsup:


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## ohiohomedoctor

Doc Holliday said:


> I mean no harm to anyone, I'm just a playful kind of guy. :thumbsup:


Call it what you want


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## Doc Holliday

we'll call it education.


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## plummen

CompleteW&D said:


> Ok.... maybe "super heated" was a poor choice of words. How about *DAMN HOT*?!? :whistling
> 
> The bottom line I was trying to explain to no one in particular since this was a six month old thread and the OP probably never came back after posting.... was to make certain all R/A boxes and duct work in the attic was both tightly sealed and insulated.
> 
> Why? because if it wasn't, you might be pulling a lot more return air from the upper level in my scenario, but if even a quarter of the air was being pulled from the attic because of poor seals on the duct work, then the air being returned to the air handler would be a lot hotter than it typically should be thus making the system work a lot harder than it needs to and losing some of the effect of improving the air balance in the upper level.
> 
> Geesh, I thought that was fairly clear.


??????????????????????????????????????? :whistling


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## Doc Holliday

He was and is on the right track, the aquaintance of a situation to another is off. Yet close.


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## beenthere

All ducts, supply and return registers boots and boxes should be sealed. So as not to draw in unconditioned air from other areas.


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## CompleteW&D

beenthere said:


> All ducts, supply and return registers boots and boxes should be sealed. So as not to draw in unconditioned air from other areas.


Thank you.... Especially since in the middle of summer when that attic air may be as high 120 degrees or more.... and the R/A plenum or ductwork in said attic isn't sealed properly, you will be pulling much _warmer _(a better choice of words?) return air back to the air handler than you would have if it were sealed properly.

Now granted, the good Doctor, may be more educated and able to pull links out the wazoo at my poor choice of words, but I was trained and worked for one of the most respected HVAC contractors in this city. He's now long since retired and has sold his business to his kids. But back then, he was the head of the Licensing board here in Indy, helped form, set up the ciriculam (sp?) for - and was on the board of (what at that time was) the only accredited trade school for HVAC technicians in town. 

He was way ahead of his time in a lot of commercial refrigeration and HVAC solutions. Residentially, we were pushing duel fuel systems (heat pumps with gas back ups), long before they became fasionable and promoted by manufacturers today. We had mandatory monday evening training meetings once a month, where we would cover all kinds of topics related to all things HVAC. Some were commercial in nature, and I was strictly residential, but I was still required to attend. I'm sure, at some point we covered the very same topic about super heated air that the good Doctor brought up. But, I'm old now and don't remember.  

But all of that doesn't mean squat. I understand that. I have not been through the intense and rigerous training of an HVAC technician. But I learned a lot from the man and together we solved a ton of airflow problems (mostly involving poor R/A situations) and improved the comfort of those we helped. He was very tough on me requiring every job I sold to be based on Manual J calculations with detailed drawings of the existing HVAC layout. He would question me about existing ductwork placement and would ask why I hadn't thought of doing this or that to improve the air balance in a particular part of the home. 

He would get pretty upset with me if I missed something, so I learned quickly to look at everything and try to come up with solutions before he would even ask. It was constant back and forth Q&A debating solutions. When other companies would make a 30 minute sales call on a 100 degree day and try to sell a condensing unit only, I was required to do a detailed load calculation and drawing of the existing system layout and make recommendations on improving the entire system.

So, do I know everything? No, not at all. But, I do stand by what I said in my first post because we did many similar things moving air flow around in older homes to improve the balance and thus increasing comfort and efficiency for our customers.

I was a little over zealous in my second reply and shouldn't have been. I apologize to anyone I may have offended.


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