# Unlicensed Contracting In Florida



## Dominic117 (Nov 6, 2010)

*I'm moving this post from Introduction so it can get more attention. This is a very relevant topic in this industry and doesn't apply to just Florida. Thanks to everyone for their imput.

Fight Unlicensed Contracting in Florida* 
Hey everyone, first thing I wanted to introduce myself. I'm new to Contractor Talk. I'm a General Contractor in Tampa, Florida. I retired from Police work 12 years ago and I have been in the construction industry ever since. Unlicensed contracting has been kicking everyone in the ass here in Florida. I have been looking for a way to get Licensed Contractors together to voice our concerns regarding unlicensed contracting in Florida. One strong voice that can make an impact when it with politicians.

I have been battling this myself for the last several months. I have spoken with DBPR and I can tell by the sting they did October 31, 2010 that the supervisor in the Tampa office listened to my concerns. I also spoke with my County Commissioner and attempted to meet with my State Senator Rhonda Storms.

I want to propose a change in the State Statute 489. I don't know if you are aware, but in Florida FSS 812, Grand Theft if you steal $300 or more from someone it's a felony, under FSS 817 Fraudulent Practices if you "Scheme to Defraud" and it's $300 or more than its a felony. Under FSS 489 if you contract without a license, regardless of value it's a misdemeanor. The only time an unlicensed contractor gets charged with a felony is if he doesn't complete the job and the Detective is wise enough to make the felony charge.

I want the law changed. Unlicensed contracting is a "scheme to defraud" and contracts for $20,000 remodels are grand theft when someone is not licensed to do the work. Unlicensed contracting needs to be a felony to deter the viral problem occurring here in Florida.

Tampa Police Department does a great job enforcing unlicensed contracting, Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office does NOTHING. I don't know what level your local law enforcement is involved with enforcement, but many of them pass the buck to DBPR. They have a hand full of investigators and do what they can, but the volume is too great. 

Locally I would like to get the TampaBay Builders Association and any other professional organization involved. The more contractors, the bigger our voice and the more we MUST be heard. 

Tell every contractor you know to join this forum or see my blog on tumlr.com at dcoloutes.tumblr.com titled Unlicensed Contracting. They can also join by looking me up on Facebook, Dominic Coloutes (don't get my son with the same name). 

All of us need to come together to make a change and protect our business and livelihood.

*POSTED TODAY November 6, 2010, Tampa Tribune*

*Riverview man accused of scamming homeowner out of nearly $20,000*




TAMPA - A man hired to build an addition on a West Tampa home never completed the work, scamming the homeowner out of nearly $20,000, police said.Ben T. Jones, 47, of 13194 U.S. 301 S., Riverview, was arrested Thursday in a sting by construction fraud investigators with Tampa police. He was released hours later after posting $4,000 bail on two felony counts of acting in the capacity of a contractor without a license, records show.
Jones is serving one year of probation after pleading no contest in January to a misdemeanor count of the same charge, records show.
In the new case, police said, Jones was hired to work on an Armenia Avenue home. When he failed to finish the job, the owner contacted police and investigators set up a sting, asking Jones to provide an estimate for repairs to a North Tampa property.
Jones, of Big Ben's Handyman Service, was arrested when he arrived at the property the next day.

Did you get the part where he's on probation for the same violation. It's a misdemeanor?!?!?!


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## apehangeralfy (Oct 26, 2008)

Check in the FRSA and our local affiliate in your area. The GCs don't seam to stick together as well as the roofing contractors. 

While I agree with where your hear is I kinda disagree on where your going. 

I think if it is made a Felony it will be harder to get on arrested, the cops and judges are not going to lock a guy up for 5 years for trying to put food on the table (and that is the argument they will use along with the right to work). 

It is already a class 1 misdemeanor and a pretty stiff penalty (2nd and 3rd times get real stiff).

The problem is enforcement, you see a guy working without a licence see if you can get the cops to come out and arrest the guy... Lot's of luck. 

Going to jail and then going threw the process is enough in it's self (without the sentence included) to make most stop after the first time.
It's just that most cops (and general public) don't look at it like a real crime, that is what we need to change to make a real difference. The Laws are already in place.

Also check into the "Special Masters program"; it's self funded and is used in with great success in a few Counties and needs to be taken state wide.


I plan on doing all I can this year to make HO fraud an issue. If you go into a restaurant and ordered a meal and walk out without paying you go to jail (no contract or signed anything). But a HO can get us to do work on there house with a contract and when it comes time to pay not to write the check... at that point we should be able to call the cops and have the HO arrested and locked up till he pays up. You have an issue with the work, fine, pay up and file a complaint to the contractor and make them fix or it become there problem with the courts or DBPR. This goes for GCs too....


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## Dominic117 (Nov 6, 2010)

I'll tell you, I agree with some of that and disagree with some. We are all trying to put food on the table for our families, the difference we are doing it legally. So really there is no argument there. Coming from a Law Enforcement background, I know cops are LESS likely to arrest on a misdemeanor than a felony. A felony requires a physical arrest, were as there are only 7 misdemeanors a policeman can arrest on that don't occur in his presence, like shoplifting. 

The misdemeanor hasn't been doing the trick. We have several news articles here in Tampa of repeat offenders.

I agree with you on the homeowner fraud. If the work is complete and pasted inspection, it's time to pay. The Lien Law is a joke! I have filed liens, initiated law suits and still didn't collect. I agree, there needs to be something to protect the contractor as well.


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## apehangeralfy (Oct 26, 2008)

I go one step further... HO that get there own permit and hire illegals to do the work should also be charged with contracting without a license. 

I here almost daily on estimates "Do I need to pull a permit?"... and right then I go in to the permitting, licensed, GL and WC speech. 

I put the guys that sub, sub jobs to avoid WC and employment taxes, the guy in a truck handyman special, the off duty firefighter/police and unlicensed hacks all in the same category... 

I have had the bet luck stopping illegal contractors over here by sending WC officials to the job.... it is very effective if they are on site. 


Second offence is a felony as is during a state of emergency...


"FLORIDA STATE STATUE
489.127 Prohibitions; penalties....

For purposes of this subsection, a person or business organization operating on an inactive or suspended certificate, registration, or certificate of authority is not duly certified or registered and is considered unlicensed. An occupational license certificate issued under the authority of chapter 205 is not a license for purposes of this part.

(2)(a) Any unlicensed person who violates any of the provisions of subsection (1) commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s.775.082 or s. 775.083.
(b) Any unlicensed person who commits a violation of subsection (1) after having been previously found guilty of such violationcommits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.(c) Any unlicensed person who commits a violation of subsection (1) during the existence of a state of emergency declared by executive order of the Governor commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083."

I would have no argument about making the first offence a felony but it will not happen over night, it is a very long slow process... We need to work with the rules in place until they are changed... Right now Enforcement is key, when was the last time you were asked to produce your license?


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## Dominic117 (Nov 6, 2010)

Yea, I agree with you. Enforcement is the key. The trick in the statute here is the first offense, a misdemeanor requires a GUILTY verdict to progress to the felony and a lot of times these get withhold of adjudication and a fine.

You're lucky in the area of the state your in because WC is very active and agressive. I've never seen a WC official in Tampa. Oh, and by the way I had one customer in February ask me to produce my license and request copies of my GL and WC.

To change the law takes one of our STATE Reps or Senators to introduce the bill. Give good cause, which we have and could be done within the next year or less. 

We need to bang on our State Reps and Senators doors and make some noise. From what I could tell from DBPR's website, there are about 27,000 licensed contractors in Hillsborough County were Tampa is located. 

Could you image the force we could be state wide if we could get the word out, the changes we could make.


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## apehangeralfy (Oct 26, 2008)

The FRSA has a full time lobbyist, Cam Fentres. We keep a good pulse on what is going on.

I think we had 118 code issues resolved in our favor (threw the state). I believe we are the strongest Contractor force in the country. If the GCs could pull together (at a State level) they could make a big difference but from all the builders meetings I have attended the mentality is that they don't what to do anything in fear of helping out there competition. I have seen first hand just the opposite in my trade and it has been a great addition to my business by being to be able to reach out to others that know more than me and I have been able to help others along the way... 

Do you know how is on your county board of contractor regulation or there version of the Unified Code Committee?

I can get some info for you to get you in touch with the right people, sometimes it's a lot of thankless work but if you want to make a difference it takes personal time and dedication... and getting to know the right people.

Never know, you might get a job over this way and need a roofer. I have a few bids on that side of the state...


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

*I'm in!*

Yeah, I'm feeling the same frustrations here in Brevard County, FL.
So many unlicensed competitors tainting the waters.
I try to educate homeowner's. But they don't know the difference. 
All they hear is one guy say's he can do the job for $x,***.xx and the other guy can do it for $x,***.xx's.
We as licensed contractor's know "All contractor's are not created equal"!. Price is king right now.
By the time the job is finished the homeowner is probably kicking themselves. 
But, by then it's too late. 

-Paul


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## 904sorock (Oct 11, 2010)

Here in California theres lots of unlicesed crews doing quality work for rock-bottom prices so I think problem is not going to go away anytime soon. Will probably get worse. Was being outbid for months until I lowered my rates to compete against them. Took a big hit on my income but it beats staying at home doing nothing. Lower your prices unless you enjoy staying at home watching Jerry Springer reruns. SM


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

My father-in-law is an unlicensed Florida contractor and has been for twenty years or so. He does handyman stuff, no additions, and has never screwed anyone. His work dried up when the recession hit. I wouldn't worry too much about competing against eighty-year-olds.

Kowboy


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## RS433 (Nov 8, 2010)

Dominic117 said:


> I'm moving this post from Introduction so it can get more attention. This is a very relevant topic in this industry and doesn't apply to just Florida. Thanks to everyone for their imput.
> 
> Fight Unlicensed Contracting in Florida
> Hey everyone, first thing I wanted to introduce myself. I'm new to Contractor Talk. I'm a General Contractor in Tampa, Florida. I retired from Police work 12 years ago and I have been in the construction industry ever since. Unlicensed contracting has been kicking everyone in the ass here in Florida. I have been looking for a way to get Licensed Contractors together to voice our concerns regarding unlicensed contracting in Florida. One strong voice that can make an impact when it with politicians.
> ...


Hey Dom,

I'm with you all the way on this. It amazes me how I speak to Handyman with no insurance or license and yet are pulling in $ 50.00 bucks an hour. Heck we'll take $45.00 an hour and we have all the credentials. 

Ralph


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I guess I am a little confused. Don't licensed contractors scam people all of the time? I mean you guys are painting the guys who get a license as some kind saint class, who always pull permits, always know what they are doing, never screw anyone. I am all for following the law, but it seems that there are only a few real issues here.

1) Are the contractors qualified to do the work?
2) Do the contractors have enough GL?
3) Do the contractors carry WC?

Scamming people has nothing to do with License versus non licensed contractors. I am sure that there are a lot of unlicensed guys that do great work, but don't feel the need to prove to anyone nor jump through gov't hoops and pay them thousands of dollars to do what they know how to do.

Illinois does not have a license for a GC. Illinois law is:

A license is required from the Illinois Department of Professional Regulation for any person offering services as a Roofing Contractor. A license is required from the Illinois Department of Public Health for any business or individual performing plumbing services. Individuals performing plumbing in his or her own residence are exempt from this requirement. Electricians in Illinois are licensed at the county or municipal level.

We don't seem to have the issues that you have in Florida.


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## CharlesD (Feb 12, 2007)

Why don't you all just all go together as contractors in Florida and designate someone, like the government, to set your prices and police your work. That way you all would be licensed, all be making the same money and all could go to your cells, (I mean homes) at night happy while you collect your salary from your master. No one would have an advantage or be disadvantaged. There'd be no competition between each other or haggling over prices and quality. You'd all just be one big happy family without any cares in the world about whether someone will out bid you or do better, more efficient work.
Why in the world is some of you so eager to give your souls to the government? Is it an admission you don't have the character to handle yourself in an honest, upright manner? 
For the life of me, I can't understand some's infatuation with getting government approval before you do anything or thinking a license makes you an honest contractor.
One of the most crooked contractors I ever tried to deal with was a retired cop. I did a lot of his repair work because he did things cheap and botchy and wouldn't stand behind his work. I even testified against him in court. But this was in a state that didn't require licenses for what that's worth. He ended up killing himself so things worked out in the end.


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## RS433 (Nov 8, 2010)

Are there crooked contractors out there? Yes. But the majority are honest hard working guys. Here's the difference of using an unlicensed person vs. a licensed contractor. The unlicensed person takes your money and it's see you later. If the licensed contractor steps out of line he/she can be located with ease. The board has all there information and as a few years back you must be fingerprinted for all new contractors or changes to your license. 
Just the other day a homeowner in Bradenton hired a person to do chimney work on their roof. The individual fell and went through the screen and cracked his head (dead). Now I can guarantee the family of the individual will be suing that homeowner. I bet you the cheap price is not so cheap now. 

Not much you can do for the gov't regulations. I believe they are required if not we would have people building anything they wanted. Stuff would be blowing over when the storms hit.


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## Dominic117 (Nov 6, 2010)

I agree with you RS433. There is a need for regulation. Someone has to verify a person is QUALIFIED to do the work or any tom, dick and harry can call themselves a contractor. Based on What Charles D said we should deregulate everything. This week I think I'll be a doctor and next week I want to be a lawyer. That sounds good. Later on I build rocketships and send people to the moon.


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## Dominic117 (Nov 6, 2010)

Apehangeralfy, yes send me tthe information. We need a unified voice. I'm not affraid of helping my legally licensed competion. That's what business is all about. 

To some of the other posts, I have lowered my prices in an attempt to compete with unlicensed work as well. The problem is, everyone I sub-contract to has had to reduce their prices as well. 

Its starting to cut too deep into everyones pockets.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

While i agree with the OP that most States have this issue and he has legitimate concerns i also agree with apehangeralfy's responses. It seems both of you have done your homework and are working to make this better. But, you must remember that being licensed does make everyone a better contractor nor any more honest. IMO having insurance, WC if there are employee's, pulling permits, having inspections and being honest is more important. I agree that the HO is should be held just as responsible as the contractor, the hacks would not have work if the HO were honest themselves.

I myself am not licensed and do not need to be here in NY. I do pull permits when needed "very rare", i have most work inspected, i am insured and provide certificates when asked, i do not have WC as i work alone most of the time, if i need help i give the guy a 1099 at yrs end, and i have a reputation of being honest. NY is now pushing for all contractors to have WC even if they are sole proprietors, some Towns and Counties are pushing for licensing and a few already require it. 
Even in a State that does not require licensing there are still a large quantity of hacks, gypsies and dishonest contractors out there making us all look bad. Will licensing prevent this, IMO No, but stiff fines will deter it. Making it a felony?? Maybe after several occurrences, as some of know a felony can be quite harsh. Would you want to lose the right to vote, carry a firearm, the right to leave the country, or even the right to obtain said license if convicted just because you were trying to work for a living. Remember just because you unlicensed does not mean you are a hack, uninsured or dishonest in your work.


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## RS433 (Nov 8, 2010)

Dominic117 said:


> I agree with you RS433. There is a need for regulation. Someone has to verify a person is QUALIFIED to do the work or any tom, dick and harry can call themselves a contractor. Based on What Charles D said we should deregulate everything. This week I think I'll be a doctor and next week I want to be a lawyer. That sounds good. Later on I build rocketships and send people to the moon.


You are absolutely correct. Why can't I hang a sign on a door and call myself Dr. Or Esq. Because there are laws. 

Where I am originally from NY Westchester county. You get caught doing unlicensed work they fine you big time and confiscate your vehicle and tools. You must have the bumper sticker on all work vehicles. the sticker proved to them that you have the proper insurance and experience. Even to cut lawns you are required to have it.


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## Dominic117 (Nov 6, 2010)

Hey Woodchuck, If your state doesn't require a license then your legal. Florida does and to also respond to TNT, Florida requires a contractor to carry certain levels of GL and WC. Even if your state licensed you still have to register with each county or city where to plan to contract work.

Your home county requires all your insurances to register as well as a Surety Bond and then they issue you a Certificate of Compitency. You can use that Certificate to register in other jurisdictions. 

Like Woodchuck said, there are dishonest people in EVERY industry. I think we can see that everyday in the news. 

Rules are what make a society, a society.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

I've been in this business for over 30 years and I have found that the more regulations that are put on the trades just cost us (the legitimate) more, - - and therefore make the illegitimates prices comparatively lower and lower.

In other words, - - thousands and thousands of dollars and government bureaucracy later, - - there's even more 'illegitimates' out there now then there were before I started contributing more and more to this government's bottomless cookie jar, - - and to what end??

I'm also not too keen on making 'working' a crime, especially for fellow Americans (and they're the only ones who would be jailed), - - while the ILLEGALS, once again, get another pass. Building a wall, for starts, seems like a much better option to me.

Over-regulation doesn't help the trades, - - it just separates us even further from those looking for a low price. The hacks were, are, and will be there either way, - - the cheapest of homeowners will ensure that.

And in case anyone hasn't yet noticed, - - today's 'government' isn't out to help legitimate contractors, - - it's out to get rid of them (us). More illegals = more votes, - - that's all they care about.

Personally, - - I look at hacks as a positive, -- that's less time I have to spend running around giving prices to cheapskates who are going to hire their unemployed uncle who's on furlough anyway.

I would concentrate more on _pushing_ yourself, - - rather than _punishing_ others.

The 'demand' for hacks comes from cheap homeowners, - - not from lack of regulation.

For every hack you jail, - - there's 10 more to fill the spot(s).

'Government' sees your petitioning as OPPORTUNITY alright, - - but only for themselves.

When will you learn??


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

For some people there may be a reason why they have not pursued the license. I myself am a good example i guess, here in NY these are the requirements to be licensed as a master electrician: Needs a Bachelor of Arts in engineering, plus 3.5 years under a licensed electrician, or vocational school plus 5.5 years under a licensed electrician, or 7.5 years under a licensed electrician.

When i first started my business i had a new home, two new trucks, credit cards, loans, etc and i had a decent career. Problem was i hated the career! I had worked for a licensed electrician for about 6yrs and had been doing work on the side myself for several yrs so i pursued this line of work. Problem is being so far in debt and working many hours to keep up with payments i could not afford to get licensed nor can afford it now. I have spoken with my old boss who i still sub for once in a while about providing proof that i worked for him all these yrs in the past so i can try to get licensed, problem was back then i worked for cash so there is no W2 or even 1099 history that i worked for him.

So what i am saying is maybe some of these guys are honest and do good work but just cannot financially afford to get licensed for their field of work. Giving these guys Felonies will not make it any better, it will just make it harder for them to get a job elsewhere. Stiff fines will deter it and weed out the unlicensed. One fine will make the honest guy go elsewhere, the rip off artist will continue on thieving and paying fines.


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## Mr Fix It (Mar 5, 2011)

Not to bring up this topic again, but I do agree. The agencies throughout the state should spend more time cracking down on unlicensed contractors and homeowners. 
It isn't fair how they all get away with all these illegal activities, and give us "the professionals" the bad rep and heavier fines then the criminals. The consumer is uneducated, and when something happens all they want, is to point the finger on someone so they can blame the wrong doing on someone else. I encounter this all of the time. I go on estimates to people’s homes, and give them my bids...After I give my lowest bid, the homeowner replies back to me, I got a lower bid! I said, well if you show me the bid, I'll see what I can do. They end up giving me the price that they were told, some tell me, and some show me. I've noticed that the about a 1/3 of the ones that show me the bids are uneducated. But all the others definitely know what’s going on, but they prefer not to show the bid. The reason isn’t because they don’t have it in writing, “because that’s the first thing I am asked when I get estimate request, 95% of the times”. It’s because it is from an unlicensed contractor, and they know if it good for nothing. When they do show me the receipts, they pull out a receipt that you get from office depot, with no name of a company, or a license #. I tell them that those people are working illegally; they don't pay taxes, insurance and are unlicensed to do the work. I get calls from people all of the time to go fix jobs done by unprofessional people, and they endanger not only your life, but ours too...The consumer tells me, but they did work for my friend, family or whomever. I say that doesn't mean anything, and I am sure a permit isn’t going to get pulled for this job either, is it? When that happens you are liable for the corrections, and you have no way of tracking the contractor, especially in the case when they take off with your money, so it is at your own risk. Most of the time consumers know what they have done, and been guilty of. But I noticed that they play dumb, and make up excuses, and say things like "I thought only when you do work outside, needs to be done with a permit, not inside the house". I just say bluntly, I don't know who told you that! But if you want the job done right, and you don’t want to be liable, you should pay for a permit. That is when they start asking how much is a permit, and after I tell them, they still respond to me, do we have to pull the permits?
I can go on and on, but all I know is that they both the homeowner and unlicensed worker should get fined. Especially the consumer should be fined, maybe even more then the unlicensed worker. I guarantee you that would put an end to unlicensed work activity, and it definitely would benefit for the state’s budget. Maybe they would be able to drop the cost of permits too since there are so many unlicensed workers out there. I bet the homeowner would think twice to get a job done without a permit.
I’ve paid my dues, and it isn’t cheap to keep being licensed, especially to compete with people that don’t pay taxes, license, insurance and etc. 
I don’t have time to spend *45 min. of the free estimates* to educate the public with the laws and etc, and playing their stupid games. It is time that the agencies start doing something about this, and the public will know the legalities if they really care. After all, it wouldn’t take much to send a note with the homeowner’s tax bill specifying *“You are liable for any Home Repairs or modifications! Just visit the website or contact your building code for all work of $1000 or more!”*


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

It is a sad day in this country when anyone wants to fine a Homeowner for wanting to repair or remodel their home or a man wanting to repair or remodel that home. The FACT is, there are already building codes. Can anyone explain why there needs to be anything more? The system already has a process in place without licensing requirements. There are just as many licensed crooks and hacks as there are unlicensed. And as I stated before, seems to me that the problem is worse than ever. So much for the gov't.


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## Mr Fix It (Mar 5, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It is a sad day in this country when anyone wants to fine a Homeowner for wanting to repair or remodel their home or a man wanting to repair or remodel that home. The FACT is, there are already building codes. Can anyone explain why there needs to be anything more? The system already has a process in place without licensing requirements. There are just as many licensed crooks and hacks as there are unlicensed. And as I stated before, seems to me that the problem is worse than ever. So much for the gov't.


You are right, there are building codes in place! but that isn't the only thing that should get you by. I don't know what you need to do in your state to obtain a license. Here, there is an accounting part of the test, that I believe it is necessary, because there are lots of contractors out there that tend to take people's deposits and don't use it correctly or don't know bookeeping. Contracting isn't just the trade part of it, it is actually binding into contracts with HO, subs, and etc. which is a major factor to run a professional business. I do know this, here in Fla, lots of people come from different states saying that they are contractors, meanwhile they only know codes for their own states, that aren't like ours. We have some strict codes here do to the hurricanes. Just like California does with earthquakes.
Good thing we do, because I am sure the same disaster would happen here like it did in haiti with their earthquake, and hurricanes! I've seen people come here and do stuff never even possible here in Fl. I've seen overhangs over patios way behond the amount allowed. Never mind the fact that they didn't even support the slab with footings and columns for the roof, and just with a gust of wind it toar up the whole roof of a house. If that isn't indangering my life or others, you tell me! About me fixing bathrooms recently done, and their shower pan is leaking withing 2 years. 
Besides, here you can't pull permits w/out a license. Only as a homeowner you can, and I believe you need to qualify for that too. But at times you do find these homeowners acting as G.C.s that hire all illegal worker, and the home owner doesn't even know how the job is done, but at least they need to pass inspections so it's their A$$. All they think about is $$$ signs, let's save money. But it bothers me when they call me to repair work already done, and damaged other stuff that shouldn't have been. I don't know about there, but I walk into many homes sometimes, where steps are all different sizes, or walls are so curved that not even fiberboard moldings can be hung. About drywall not even screwed. I am sure there are G.C.s that don't oversee their workers, but at least he will build a bad reputation like that, and he can be found when he needs to be tracked down. What about the illegal ones? I see it this way, "Would you hire a lawyer that is licensed in NY for a trial case taking place in any other state then NY?"


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Mr Fix It said:


> You are right, there are building codes in place! but that isn't the only thing that should get you by. I don't know what you need to do in your state to obtain a license. Here, there is an accounting part of the test, that I believe it is necessary, because there are lots of contractors out there that tend to take people's deposits and don't use it correctly or don't know bookeeping. Contracting isn't just the trade part of it, it is actually binding into contracts with HO, subs, and etc. which is a major factor to run a professional business. I do know this, here in Fla, lots of people come from different states saying that they are contractors, meanwhile they only know codes for their own states, that aren't like ours. We have some strict codes here do to the hurricanes. Just like California does with earthquakes.
> Good thing we do, because I am sure the same disaster would happen here like it did in haiti with their earthquake, and hurricanes! I've seen people come here and do stuff never even possible here in Fl. I've seen overhangs over patios way behond the amount allowed. Never mind the fact that they didn't even support the slab with footings and columns for the roof, and just with a gust of wind it toar up the whole roof of a house. If that isn't indangering my life or others, you tell me! About me fixing bathrooms recently done, and their shower pan is leaking withing 2 years.
> Besides, here you can't pull permits w/out a license. Only as a homeowner you can, and I believe you need to qualify for that too. But at times you do find these homeowners acting as G.C.s that hire all illegal worker, and the home owner doesn't even know how the job is done, but at least they need to pass inspections so it's their A$$. All they think about is $$$ signs, let's save money. But it bothers me when they call me to repair work already done, and damaged other stuff that shouldn't have been. I don't know about there, but I walk into many homes sometimes, where steps are all different sizes, or walls are so curved that not even fiberboard moldings can be hung. About drywall not even screwed. I am sure there are G.C.s that don't oversee their workers, but at least he will build a bad reputation like that, and he can be found when he needs to be tracked down. What about the illegal ones? I see it this way, "Would you hire a lawyer that is licensed in NY for a trial case taking place in any other state then NY?"


You are making my point for me. With all of your regulation it is still being done wrong. Since when has the gov't ever regulated anything well? In IL you do not need a license for most trades. Electrical and Plumbing are it. Seems to me that we have pretty good structures here. Aside from some additional hurricane codes I am not sure what else you would need.

I am not sure how a contract section on a test for a license ensures anything.

As a lawyer you are also required to go to 4 years of college and then law school. You then have to pass your states bar exam and then obtain a license to practice. All states see the need for a lawyer to have this background in order to provide sound legal counsel. However, I don't think that our trade requires that kind of oversight. I think that requiring a building permit and inspections would ensure that the work is done properly. If the HO and or Contractor skirts the permit process, then you can levy fines on both and require the work to be brought up to code. Seems to me this is all that you need.

I still don't see any real need for all this bureaucracy and the blood lust for fining HO's for wanting to update their home and contractors wanting to earn a living.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*More whining for government help*

Ask for more help, raise your own costs, and then lose even more customers. When are you socialist crybabies going to learn?

The one poster was right. It is a sad day in construction when we are openly asking that those without "government approval" become felons. 

This country is going down the tubes, and the regulation-loving socialist are the ones to blame.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*unreal*

"and just with a gust of wind it toar up the whole roof of a house. If that isn't indangering my life or others, you tell me!"

Excellent point. I saw a huge tree branch in the road the other day. That thing fell from a tree after a storm. If that ins't endangering my life and yours, then you tell me!!!!!!!

We better cut down all the trees. 

Idiots.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*Tell you what*

All you who are begging for more fines and regulations, and making your fellow citizens felons for working on houses, this is what you can do-

Pool you rmoney together, hire about five inspectors @ $45,000 per year, for each neighborhood, and pay their benefits, about $5,000.00 per year each.

Don't forget the nice new vehicles, about $18,000 per, or you can just pay the $4,000 per year in payments and costs. 

Then you can pay all the litigation costs also, each case costing about $2,000.00. 

Who cares, right, we have an endless supply of money!!!!!!!! 

You can be the ones that give the home owners the fines, in person. 

And you can be the ones who tell honest people that their lives are now ruined becuase they are now felons. 

Self serving scumbags. Follow the sheeple or get trampled by them, I guess.


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## RenaissanceR (May 16, 2006)

*MA Cracking down*

[deleted]


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## rosethornva (Aug 15, 2010)

RenaissanceR said:


> The State of MA has been running ads on craigslist looking for contractors to do work. Read in the papers a few weeks ago, where they bagged 20 electricians who proposed work with no permits nor licenses. 20 bagged illegal
> contractors is a drop in the proverbial bucket...


Awesome.

I do not agree with more legislation, but I think catching the contractors who are violating *EXISTING* laws is a wonderful idea. 

We have enough laws. What would this country look like if we enforced the many laws we already have?

What a wonderful world it would be...


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## HomerJ (Jan 23, 2009)

*Licensing in my area is a bigger mess than most*

There is no state licensing in IN except for plumbers. 

Every county, city and town in this area has different requirements. The process of obtaining a license is a complete joke in many places.

Some require testing, others just a registration fee, bond, insurance, etc.

Some tests are incredibly difficult, others are fair and normal.

Some cities require permits for toilet replacements, door replacements, and other pretty simple installations. Other cities don't even make you pull a permit for a water heater or a kitchen remodel.

One city charges a min. of $100 for any plumbing permit. If we install a toilet in that town, the permit costs as much as the installation. I've heard that one town now wants a permit for a storm door installation.

So far this year, I've spent over $2100.00 on licencing and renewals. Plus, I've spent countless hours studying, testing, filling out paperwork and running around.

The tests I've taken do not test my ability or knowledge of construction in any way. Rather, they test my ability to buy a study guide from Craftsmen, tab the sections and locate the EXACT questions and answers as they appear on their tests. 

After passing one test by getting 100% of the answers correct, I went before the licensing board of 8 people. I was granted the license by a vote of 5-3. No reason was given for the 3 votes against me. It's widely known that some of these boards are connected with people in the trades.

Licensing here is about 3 things. Collecting fees, exclusion and corruption.

Enforcing building codes and protecting homeowners is secondary to the above.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

> Enforcing buidling codes and protecting homeowners is secondary to the above.


And referring to it as 'secondary' is being more than generous . . . :thumbsup:


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## olligator (Nov 23, 2007)

I don't think that we need more laws to regulate our licensing in FL. I think that we absolutely need to enforce the laws that are already in place, and in fact, we need modify/eliminate some of what we already have in place. It is exceptionally rare that any HO feels the wrath of getting tagged doing illegal work. I recently posted a rant/thread about losing bids to HOs that didn't want to get permits for their work. It absolutely sux, but it's the nature of the beast right now, and so be it. Getting burned on all those bids basically left me with the attitude that if I see illegal work happening, the local AHJ is going to be getting an anonymous call on the batphone. Sure some guys will poo-poo on me for being a narc, but all's fair in love and business right? I consider dropping the dime to achieve two things: 1) help self-regulate our industry, and 2) help cull out the dirty competition. Less dirty competition = more business for guys that make the effort to be legit professionals.

But getting to modify the laws and practices that we already have in place....

1) Enforce the state statutes on HOs for doing illegal work and make an example out of them. Double permit fees and a $500 fine aren't any kind of deterrence, so let's up our game in that department. Sure, there are still going to be people that roll the dice, but that would slowly decrease when people start seeing their neighbor down the street get popped with the $5k state fine. And to hchc, the fine can be delivered on the spot by code enforcement just as it is now. Just check the little box next to 'stop work' that says 'assess fees/fines' on the red tag.

2) Adjust WC rates down to a more reasonable amount through a state pooling system or something of that nature. Make WC coverage more accessible to smaller operations and/or give them incentives for getting WC coverage, such as a corporate tax break. Many legit guys still use illegal (uninsured) labor because WC is too expensive. That's bad business, because as we all know, you absolutely DO need WC. But seriously though, when a roofer has to drop over 50% of each dollar paid to an employee for WC, should anyone be suprised that a roofer subs out the work to a bunch of uninsured hacks?

3) Raise property insurance rates on HOs that get tagged doing illegal work for a year. HO insurance is expensive enough in South Florida- do I need to explain how this can be a deterrent to illegal work? Maybe that's a shot in the dark since property insurance is going up 25%+ every year anyway....

4) Stop wasting LEO resources on elaborate contractor stings, just start doing license checks in the parking lot of Depot and Lowes. The sheriff is always parked out front of the big box stores anyway down here and those big boxes are where the majority of the unlicensed hacks get their materials. Hell, park the paddy wagon out front and start loading guys up and people will get the message real quick.

5) Eliminate CC's from the accepted licensing in the state. Sure, the union guys will hate me for saying it, but it's a waste of resources for the counties and creates a truly uniform licensure structure throughout the state. If a journeyman has a CC in Miami-Dade, he should be able to work in Broward without being penalized for going where the work is, and his CC should automatically qualify almost all, if not all of his experience for state licensure.

6) And speaking of qualifiers, if a person has legally performed work requisite for application for licensure, it should be mandatory that the qualifier will sign off on work that a legal sub or employee performed for him. Don't force a skilled tradesperson to skirt the law just because you want to be a D and not sign his chit. Some would argue that this forces open the door to more competition, but I would argue that running your own business is more of an equalizer than limiting the number of licenses. As for how to enforce that, well, that's up for debate.

7) Clean up Corruption Counties! Anyone in South Florida knows that Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties are poster children for corruption. Hell, the mayor of my own city was arrested last week for taking bribes! The corruption down here is so rampant that we really do need the Feds to come in with FDLE and clean house. It's systemic and goes from the top of the food chain on down. How can there be a level playing field for our industry when the rulemakers play favorites? Does anyone in South Florida think that you would have a chance bidding for any government work without having an in with the decision makers? While I realize that the good ole' boy system (or alternately the 'ole buen sistema de nino') has been in place since forever and will never be completely gone, can we at least tone it down a few notches?

8) Contractors - do not screw homeowners on a project! I don't think this applies to many people on this board, but it's a big reason why HOs are reluctant to trust us to do a decent, properly priced and permitted job.

9) Homeowners - do not try to screw contractors on a project! A mechanics lien should never expire until that dispute between the parties has been resolved in one way or another. The prevailing party should not be penalized and the party judged against should be liable for that judgement and the other parties' legal fees as a matter of law, not just a well-written contract. Additionally, we need to establish protections FOR the contractor from fraudulent HOs. Currently, a complaint call to the CILB from the HO means the contractor and his attorney get to park their butts in front of the board at the next meeting to defend themselves. Guilt is always assumed, and there are zero repurcussions for false claims. Several contractors I personally know have been dragged through the mud because the HO thought it gave them a way to a) not pay the contractor, and b) get some cash back from the state through the recovery fund. Short of a protracted legal battle, those HOs felt no heat for the false claims and the attorneys' fees for these contractors.

10) Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. The boom times from a few years ago aren't going to come back, and I think we can all agree on that. So without adapting to the changes of the market (and government), businesses die a slow and painful death. Sitting around and complaining about lack of work doesn't solve problems, action solves problems. For some of us that means changing how we do business and what kind of business we pursue. Yeah, we all gripe about stuff like getting burned on bids, etc., but as older and wiser guys on here have alluded to, don't get hung up on it, and never take your eye off the ball on your business. There's a reason some of those older and wiser guys have had the success that they've had, and more people need to consider paying attention to what they say and keep their personal emotions out of the equation. Spend that energy making your business better.

Anyway, just some thoughts from my perspective. I'm curious to hear some thoughts on these points.

Ollie


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## swilbanks75 (Mar 20, 2011)

*for sure*



CharlesD said:


> Why don't you all just all go together as contractors in Florida and designate someone, like the government, to set your prices and police your work. That way you all would be licensed, all be making the same money and all could go to your cells, (I mean homes) at night happy while you collect your salary from your master. No one would have an advantage or be disadvantaged. There'd be no competition between each other or haggling over prices and quality. You'd all just be one big happy family without any cares in the world about whether someone will out bid you or do better, more efficient work.
> Why in the world is some of you so eager to give your souls to the government? Is it an admission you don't have the character to handle yourself in an honest, upright manner?
> For the life of me, I can't understand some's infatuation with getting government approval before you do anything or thinking a license makes you an honest contractor.
> One of the most crooked contractors I ever tried to deal with was a retired cop. I did a lot of his repair work because he did things cheap and botchy and wouldn't stand behind his work. I even testified against him in court. But this was in a state that didn't require licenses for what that's worth. He ended up killing himself so things worked out in the end.


 Also, I know an unliscenced contractor and he always, ALWAYS, completes the job before asking for any money, regardless of size of job. Customers always happy so what does it matter? I agree completely with you sir..... Tyrany


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

License's just a paper. Do you see crappy drivers on the road? Well, most of them are licensed. Are suspended drivers (same as unlicensed, although reasons aren't necessarily for moving violations) always worse? No. 

I think that contractors voicing concerns isn't expressing customer's interest as the main concern, they're mainly concerned about unwanted competition that affects market price.

As for WC, its required here, but I learned on this forum that in some states, its advised, but not REQUIRED, so not having WC on workers isn't "illegal labor" in every state.


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## SanJoseConcrete (Mar 26, 2011)

Unlicensed contractors on small jobs is fine. On big jobs they are a liability.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*Fines for homeowners*

"start seeing their neighbor down the street get popped with the $5k state fine"

This thread has officially gone insane. Socialist nazis can please exit the country at this time.


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## olligator (Nov 23, 2007)

hchc, you take things to far, too extreme. Let's be honest, that $5k fine isn't going to get dropped on every red tag handed out. Save it to make an example out of the most egregious offenders. 

I'm having trouble understanding how the $5k fine point is a combination of socialism and facism (socialist nazis)?? If it was facism, we would only fine scapegoats, and if it was socialism we would all pay big taxes for the building department whether we use it or not. If it's socialism+facism then we pay all pay big taxes for the building depatment and levy fines on scapegoats. Permits are a pay-as-you-go system, and the $5k fine is indiscriminant. 

The $5k fine acts as a deterrent to force a known, proceduralized playing field that is more balanced and enables all of the legal protections for both parties involved. It costs the contractors, HO's, and the state a helluva lot less money over the long haul to deal with disputes when jobs are done within the bounds of these legal protections. If you want to roll the dice like it's the wild west without permits, good luck, but rememeber you won't have a pot to pi$$ in when the s**t hits the fan.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*Building Dept*

Who finances the building department? We ALL do. Who finances the clowns that run around trying to catch people? We ALL do. Who finances the insurance on that bulding? We ALL do. Who finances the nice new inspection cars they drive? We ALL do. Who pays for that insurance? We ALL do. Who pays for the state/county side of litigation against homeowners, who own THIER OWN HOME, and wanted to put windows in without having to ask the government for permission?


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Couple of things I want to throw in here. Back in the early 80's all this tougher licensing for contractors started because of all the senior citizens getting ripped off by gypsie contractors. 

It was meant to protect the homeowners from crooks taking there money and dissapearing with all the cash without any work getting done.


And I recently travelled to another state where my son bought a new house. I was amazed at the quality of the work.:notworthy I could not find one thing wrong with the house.:w00t: this is a state where you don't need licenses.

I've been in Florida too long and forgot what quality work looks like.:blink:

I might get flamed for this but it's true.:sad:


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## olligator (Nov 23, 2007)

@hchc: The building departments have a general operating budget that is heavily supplanted by permit fees. If nobody is getting fined or paying permit fees, the building departments have to cut back just like any other business entity. 

Take Hallandale Beach, for example. They have 1 plumbing inspector. Who also does all the plan review. They don't have an electrical inspector, they pay the county for that (cheaper, they pay per inspection). They have 2 building inspectors. That also pull plan review duty. 2 clerks and 1 GP office worker. The inspectors drive around in 2 ragged-out rangers and a POS '96 taurus. That's what you get for a city of 37,145 people. This is hardly an example of government waste.

As an industry, we have some major issues that we have to deal with. We DO need change. We don't need change to any extreme on either side of the aisle. Going completely libertarian is just as bad as going completely communist, comrade. Taking out the garbage (hacks) is just as important as creating an environment where the HO understands why it really is in their best interest to do permitted work when it's required. In the end, that costs everyone less money all the way around. If we don't make the effort to enable change, self-regulate, etc., then we risk having the nanny-state do it for us, and no one wants to go there.​


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*County and city inspectors*

So on top of the county inspectors, we also need the city, a small city, to have it's own squad too? Totally unnecessary. Close the whole department, and there will be an increase of 0% in electrical fires and plumbing mishaps the following year. These are useless pods, and are serving no purpose to the community whatsoever. 

Atleast they seem to be cost consious, which is a first, but in a small city, they are probably relying on the city taxes for their budget, and probably don't get any state or county funding. 

State's budget just got slashed, but we better find a way to keep all these lazy ass inspectors on the job. Especially the painter inspectors. I mean, do you have any idea the harm that a bad paint job can cause to the community?


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## swilbanks75 (Mar 20, 2011)

SanJoseConcrete said:


> Unlicensed contractors on small jobs is fine. On big jobs they are a liability.


So, once again, screw the homeowner. If an unlicensed guy bids a job for a family short on cash and they give it to him it doesn't matter one bit. Why should they be FORCED to pay contractor prices when the contractor may very likely just sub out the poorer persons house to that same unlicensed guy? If they want to take the chance it should be up to them.

Homeowners with alot of money will still opt for the legal route, anyway.


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## olligator (Nov 23, 2007)

By your logic Hchc, that implies that we should have a completely centralized county building dept, or for that matter we should just have a statewide building department/inspection force? I think if you looked at the actual operating costs of a large centralized operation I think you would see that that will be much more expensive than the highly localized approach that we use now. Further, for someone writing with a highly libertarian vibe, the suggestion of centralized, large scale regulation (such as why not just have the county do it all) somewhat hypocritical. A highly centralized system is regressive against people that utilize far less of the building department services than another. For example, why should residents of a city with a slower rate of development pay for municipalities with a higher rate of development?

Basically, I havent heard you suggest any rational solutions to deal with the unlicensed contracting problem in Florida. Sitting around and whining about how the government is all up in your grill doesn't help solve any problems. Whether you like it or not, we do need some government regulation of our industry. Complete deregulation doesn't work (see recession 2008) and overregulation doesn't work (see 'communism'). So, what do you propose is a realistic or practical way to deal with the problem of unlicensed contracting in Florida?


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## olligator (Nov 23, 2007)

swilbanks75 said:


> So, once again, screw the homeowner. If an unlicensed guy bids a job for a family short on cash and they give it to him it doesn't matter one bit. Why should they be FORCED to pay contractor prices when the contractor may very likely just sub out the poorer persons house to that same unlicensed guy? If they want to take the chance it should be up to them.
> 
> Homeowners with alot of money will still opt for the legal route, anyway.


It has been my experience that you have to be in the 'ridiculously well off' class to see them always go for permits. Plenty of upper-middle crust homeowners ask to do jobs without permits.

That family short of cash shouldn't be trying to remodel their kitchen. They should only be making necessary repairs to get by, and multiple options for financing are out there. No ones forcing them to pay legit contractor prices- they reap what they sow for hiring Hialeah construction.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*reply to centralized monitoring*

I didn't state that the county or state was the way to go. I think that it should all be broken down to city levels, but unfortunately there is a lot of area in the country that doesn't fall within city limits, so those cities would have to agree to take them in. 

What are some solutions? Let's see...

-The solutions are easy. Get rid of most of it. A license should be needed for electrical work, and HVAC, and the rest it should be available but not neccesary. Available but not neccesary means that if a homeowners who wants someone who has been trained by the government, taken an open book test, with no real test of actual hands on activities, then they can find that guy. If they think it's just another tax, and no real measure of skill, then they don't have to fear for their freedom by hiring that person. 

Out of all the things that need permiting, most need to go. If someone wants to hang doors in their home, they should not need to ask the govenment for permission (I read that in many counties in Florida this requires a permit, which is freakin insane). Same for decks, windows, flooring, etc. Bulding additions, yes, because they change the layout which changes the taxing procedures (which also need to go, but that's another topic). Permits are overly expensive when in relation to the time and salary of those looking at them. $400 for a window permit? This is nothing but a tax. 

Inspections are a joke, anybody who has seen one knows that it is not an inspection, but rather some pod walking through the house who could care less. 

My questions to you all are:

What was the building industry like before all these regulations?
What did homeowners do before all of these regulations?
What did construction workers do before all these regulations?

My guess is it was pretty much the same. 10% of the workers and homewoners give the industry a bad rap. Same as any other industry. But the sky was probably not falling. If the government wants to make a license for homeowner verifications, that is fine. However, to put people in jail who do not follow the BS on THEIR OWN HOUSE, or to put people in jail for MAKING A LIVING, is straight up criminal, it's nonsense, and it is a waste of resources. 

Now go ahead and pic this piece apart with a fine toothed socialist comb.


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## olligator (Nov 23, 2007)

*this is me winning*



hchc said:


> I didn't state that the county or state was the way to go. I think that it should all be broken down to city levels, but unfortunately there is a lot of area in the country that doesn't fall within city limits, so those cities would have to agree to take them in.
> 
> What are some solutions? Let's see...
> 
> ...


Very well. Here is my 10-point rebuttal: 

#1 - If you have "read that in many counties in Florida this requires a permit, which is freakin insane" then I have to ask how you have such valuable insight into the issue afflicting the industry in Florida when it is now obvious that you do not live and work within that system. To address that specific example, this applies to exterior doors and windows, and is a direct result of living in high-velocity hurricane zones. This is a public safety thing. What do you think happens when an improperly installed fence or deck blows apart in 120mph winds? We call that resulting debris 'large missle', and for good reason. Ask anyone who cowered in their bathtub while hurricane Andrew ripped their home apart around them if they think the current standards pertaining to opening protection are as rediculous as you imply. But wait, it gets better. Supposing your exterior door was not installed with a permit, and it failed in a storm, your HO insurance co. can and will deny claims. So yeah, what great state do you work in comrade?

#2 - Since you are not a licensed contractor in Florida, there's no way that you could be expected to know what the legal definition of unlicensed contracting is according to Ch. 489 of the Florida State Statutes. The current penalties are for those that are in the business of contracting and do not hold the required license(s). E.g., Juan the handyman from Hialeah that "does everything" and will remodel your bathroom for $500. By law, you will get a cease and decist notice, plus a fine, then a greater fine, and then jail time if you continue. Depending on the severity of how bad you rip people off, you can go straight to jail. These 'unlicensed contracting' statutes do not apply to a HO as an owner/builder, as they are not attempting to engage in the business of contracting.

#3 - A HO WILL NOT be taken to jail for doing work on their own home with out a permit. At the worst, they will be red-tagged by the city and assessed a fine, and be required to get a permit for the work they were cited for. This seems to be common practice just about everywhere... ...where do you work again?

#4 - Some inspectors are lazy turds and other are not. The large majority of inspectors I deal with are pretty good at what they do and and not out to screw the contractor with reinspection fees as you imply. It is not in their benefit, or the city's, to jerk people around- bad business for everyone involved.

#5 - Specific to Florida (where you apparently do not work), the codes and regulation were not unified and run under the good ole' boy system for years, probably at it's worst in the 80's. The quality of construction was complete crap for the most part, and the result of these practices and lack of regulation culminated in the wasteland of south Miami-Dade county in 1992 after a hurricane called Andrew. You may have heard of it. Since then, the state has unified the building code into one, established specific inspection requirements for HVHZ applications, and written in many more protections for the HO into law. The laws and regulations are absolutely not perfect, but they're light years ahead of where we were. Sure, a spec house in west Broward might still be built with crap quality, but at least if it meets code minimums, HOs have a much better chance of not seeing their home leveled after the next storm. They also have a much better chance of not getting ripped off by out of state "contractors" taking deposit money and skipping town after the storm.

#6 - I see by your backtracking that you've come to understand that an extreme libertarian solution to permitting and regulation is just as bad as a extreme socialist solution to the issue. Whereas you cite permits as being necessary for things like additions for taxable values, would you not say that permits for a fence are also necessary for property rights issues? Is a deck also not an addition to the taxable value of a property? In your vein, why would a permit be required to change the layout of the home as opposed to remodeling the bathroom in said home? Are both these alterations not inherently affecting the taxable value of the home? 

#7 - As far as putting people in jail that are attempting to 'make a living', I call bulls**t on that one. For the record, I started my business legitimately in the middle of our great recession after working as a grunt for other contractors. I have done all my work legally, carried the proper insurance/worker's comp, got my license, hired full-time employees, and am looking to expand _again_ this year. It hasn't been easy at all, but is running a business ever easy? The point is that I made it happen, figured out how to do it, and lots of other legit guys have made it happen too. If we can all do it, then the hack "just trying to make a living" could do it too if they got off their butt and made the effort. So I have no sympathy for that argument. And I never will. 

#8 - Please, for the love of all that is holy, understand the accepted definition(s) of socialism: 

so·cial·ism- _noun_ \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 
2_a_ : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property _b_ : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done 

Our industry isn't even almost close to socialism, and not a single rational person even almost wants to go there, me included. Please don't confuse market economies and their necessary regulation with socialism.

#9 - Now before the hypercapitalism of easy money we experienced in the past decade, construction workers in the past could put in their 8 and make a decent living to support their families. Those good old days are gone and they are not coming back. So you can either adapt to the changing market or your can crash and burn whining about how immigrants took your job. Your choice. Capitalist market economies do not reward those who do not adapt. Whining for a handout or unfair regulation because you can't hack it in today's market is a cry for the very socialism you profess to detest (see definition of socialism, item #8). It's no different than a UAW worker crying because Chrysler can no longer afford to pay them $38/hr. +bennies to push a button on a machine. Why should a business subsidize that? Yeah it sucks for the worker, but it's the onus of the worker to find a new way to gainful employment. The market is what it is, and it changes all the time. It's survival of the fittest and you'd better get your s**t in gear.

#10 - Your argument has now officially been pwnd. As our series of posts to each other have demonstrated in multiplicity, extremism on either end of an argument is very rarely the mecca of solutions that either of party may have once thought. I hope that you can understand the harshness of my rebuttal results from even the most minute implication that I would promote a socialist agenda. Outside of this small number of posts on the interwebs, you're probably an ok guy hchc, and if you ever make it down to South Florida, the beers are on me. :thumbsup:

Best Regards,
Ollie


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*Don't assume, you just make an ..........*

You get the rest. I am a retired home builder in Jacksonville, and do not know a single builder or remodeler who doesn't think that the regulations are out of control. 

Do we get tired of the hacks? Yes. Has any amount of regulation ever helped things? No. The more regulation, the more you create a black market, and on and on we go. The hacks will always be there in construction. Sorry, just learn to deal with it. 

I think that any major industry needs a certain amount of regulation, but eventually you reach a point of diminishing returns. I'm sorry to call you a socialist, but all of this regulation costs money, and it's not like the fines are going to anything productive, it just feeds the black hole. 

Florida has a 20 billion deficit, and no amount of taxing and regulation is going to curb that. The only thing that will preserve us being able to make a living PERIOD is if we stop asking the government to solve all our problems. I understand that political talk is not allowed on this forum, but the two are joined at the hip when talking about regulations. 

If we all don't stop with this "help me" BS, the world is not fair BS, do something about this horrible unjust BS,...well, we will have WAY less work than we do now. The entire system is not doing well. 

I understand the industry, have made tons of money over the years, have never screwed anyone. I think the industry as a whole is in pretty good shape, but the cruch of the economy is not going to get better, unless the entire polulation shifts their thinking (better chance of a snow ball in hell). 

When people are actually spending "their" money- as opposed to refinanced money- and they see the costs of hiring licensed guys who pull costly permits and need expensive inspections- more and more are going to get the handyman guy and risk it. 

We can ask for more regulation and penalties, but would only be cutting our own throats in the grand scheme of things.


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## PlumbersSanJose (Apr 16, 2011)

The regulations are not out of control. There are many places where these regulations literally save lives.


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## The Piper (Apr 16, 2011)

*Unlicensed contracting: Florida*

the Guy who says he still hasn't heard of a good reason why Florida should require a License. Here are a few reasons.

1. Individuals who are not solvent should not be given a license. 
It is a high risk to tax payers. Different trades require a certain amount in Net worth before a license is issued. 

2. Convicted Felons should not be given a license without Clemoncy from the Govenor,,, It's the law..... an individual who has been convicted of robbing Grandma of her life savings deserves no license.

3. If you think you have the common sense (brains), then take the exam and pass it

IT PROTECTS THE ALL OF THE PUBLIC.
To


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*Please explain*

What trades in florida require a certain amount of net worth? 

Felons I can understand not granting them a license. But net worth? So if someone wants to start a business and doesn't have a lot of money, then they are now criminals if they choose to?!!

You people are amazing. How you can criminalize your fellow Americans, both homeowners and workers, for doing home repairs, is beyond me. This country is screwed. Keep fighting with each other and you both drown. 

And for the last time. YES, some regulations are needed!! But many are not, and we certainly don't need MORE of them!! No employee is allowed to do side work in Florida. Unreal. Only work for their master. And the same can be true of company owners in regards to their government. 

I am ashamed that my industry has become this kind of spread-the-risk, government-ruled, criminalize-the-less-fortunate, criminalize-homeowners, regulate-everything, aren't-I-special mess!! 

Hank Carter, Better Service, Est. 1953.


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## The Piper (Apr 16, 2011)

What trades in florida require a certain amount of net worth? 

1. Plumbers, Air conditioning, Electricians, General contractors require more than the rest. You are a perfect example of why a license is needed because you didn't even know of this. Start Studying.

Felons I can understand not granting them a license. But net worth? So if someone wants to start a business and doesn't have a lot of money, then they are now criminals if they choose to?!!

2. No, Not criminals because you won't be issued a license without the required net worth of the trade.

You people are amazing. How you can criminalize your fellow Americans, both homeowners and workers, for doing home repairs, is beyond me. This country is screwed. Keep fighting with each other and you both drown. 

3. "You people" ? I guess you are talking about "Us People" who follow the law.
And for the last time. YES, some regulations are needed!! But many are not, and we certainly don't need MORE of them!! No employee is allowed to do side work in Florida. Unreal. Only work for their master. And the same can be true of company owners in regards to their government. 

4. "And for the last time (some regulations are needed) ? Oh I guess you think we should let the unlicensed decide which laws should be obeyed.
"Only Work for their Masters" ? No, nobody is forcing you to work for a master (as you call employers) Get a license and become a "Master", then we can't own you,,, Koonta Kentay" and yes I agree with you that no more regulations are needed,,, Just enforce the current regulations. No license ? Bust em.

I am ashamed that my industry has become this kind of spread-the-risk, government-ruled, criminalize-the-less-fortunate, criminalize-homeowners, regulate-everything, aren't-I-special mess!! 

5. Your industry ? 

Hank Carter, Better Service, Est. 1953

You deserve no more response, this was to easy.

The Piper, licensed & Insured


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*Another government shill*

1. Don't assume I don't know the answer to the question I am asking. If you are poor, you cannot start a business. Totally unconstitutional.

2. You are a criminal if you start the business without paying for the license. And if you are poor you are forced to continue working for someone else. Totally unconstitutional. 

3. Us people. If you prefer to be grouped with those who don;t allow poor people to start businesses, then so be it. I won't be. 

4. Laughable. 

5. Your response should be "too" easy, not "to" easy. Grammar 101. Do you realize that if the tests were not OPEN BOOK, how many of you would fail? And if it tested on high school basics, such as math and english, MOST of you would fail. 

But that has nothing to do with the trades, right? Exactly, it doesn't. And last I knew, you could be poor and still be a DAMN GOOD CARPENTER!!!!!!!!!! 

Keep making criminals of the poor, people. Again, I will repeat, if you feel so strongly about this, quit your jobs, and YOU start going and arresting your fellow americans and taxing your fellow homeowners. 

Join the ranks of the problem creators, you are obviously more than qualified to take and redistribute.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*economic news that is sure to affect the building industry*

The IMF stated yesterday that due to over regulation and entitlements, the US economy will be second to China by 2015. China will be the new #1, and our interest rates will go through the roof, hence pretty much ending housing for quite some time. 

We need to take a big look at this industry, and decide what the future is, because the economy is only getting worse, and we have some tough decisions to make. Not just for our industry, but should we be taking tax dollars for ourselves or save them for the police, firemen, teachers and road/utility repairs. 

US dollar is currently exchanging against the debt-ridden Euro at 1-1.43. That is nuts. We have got to change our thoughts on this useless regualtions, prosecutions of people for insane reasons, more taxes and license and permit fees, the list of insanity is endless. And it is all burying us alive.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

The Piper said:


> What trades in florida require a certain amount of net worth?
> 
> 1. Plumbers, Air conditioning, Electricians, General contractors require more than the rest. You are a perfect example of why a license is needed because you didn't even know of this. Start Studying.
> 
> ...



You obviously are oblivous to why their are regulations such as net worth. It is the same reason that in the state of IL you have to had worked as a manager in a large alarm company before you can get a license to run your own. And the reason is the large companies want to weed out all the mom and pop operations. You can come up with some noble sounding argument, but there is no good reason why I have to have a net worth in order to start a business.

And yes it would criminalize a person practicing without that net worth, they would obviously not have the license.

As far as you people, you said Us people who follow the law...I'll add like Lemmings. You follow the law because you can. You would be singing a much different tune if you had everything but the net worth to get the license.

Florida is a perfect example of what happens when unions and big corporations are allowed to lobby for strict regulations. You guys can keep thinking that you are following the law, but the laws are wrong and we need to get back to a FREE market, that is able to correct itself through consumer demand.

(And don't reply that I am saying all regulations are bad and there should be no standards for licensing, but let's stick to knowledge and experience as the determining factors, not net worth.


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## B.handy (Dec 7, 2014)

*Having a license means what?*

Their are classes offered to prepare individuals to pass the Builder Exam. In one such class ,I notice out of 20 participants only 3 had any field experience. Three carpenters.. So here you have opportunist who have never spent a day driving 16 penny owning a construction company?.. Is this something people should take into consideration . Ex telemarketer. nurses and real estate brokers with builder licenses operating as GC. How could they possibly know if the worker is Skilled or Un-skilled in his /her craft , If the license contractor has no field or little experience. It a recipe for Disaster.:rockon:


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

B.handy said:


> Their are classes offered to prepare individuals to pass the Builder Exam. In one such class ,I notice out of 20 participants only 3 had any field experience. Three carpenters.. So here you have opportunist who have never spent a day driving 16 penny owning a construction company?.. Is this something people should take into consideration . Ex telemarketer. nurses and real estate brokers with builder licenses operating as GC. How could they possibly know if the worker is Skilled or Un-skilled in his /her craft , If the license contractor has no field or little experience. It a recipe for Disaster.:rockon:


Dang, you got six points for bringing up a 3 year old post? :laughing:


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## Lugnut1968 (Dec 11, 2014)

Gary H said:


> Dang, you got six points for bringing up a 3 year old post? :laughing:




Three years? Hmmm, he may be crowned the necro king for that one :clap:


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## Yianno (Dec 11, 2014)

What happens if the company is not 100% running a cash show? Years ago there was a homeowner whom hired a contractor that wasn't properly licensed. Was in the business for 39 years, has insurance and workers comp and had to take the customer to court and that's where he found out that he needed a city license for that issue, by laws changed from when he first got into business. Guy actually own, applied for a city license and they gave it to him. So what happens in a similar situation?


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

B.handy said:


> Their are classes offered to prepare individuals to pass the Builder Exam. In one such class ,I notice out of 20 participants only 3 had any field experience. Three carpenters.. So here you have opportunist who have never spent a day driving 16 penny owning a construction company?.. Is this something people should take into consideration . Ex telemarketer. nurses and real estate brokers with builder licenses operating as GC. How could they possibly know if the worker is Skilled or Un-skilled in his /her craft , If the license contractor has no field or little experience. It a recipe for Disaster.:rockon:



3 yrs old. Who cares. Good reading and some true stuff here.

I know a few of them kind......................They couldn't build a doghouse. :no: 

What ever happened to Olligator ?


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## ocnluvr2 (Sep 18, 2015)

*licensed and insured*

Here is my dilemma. I have a painting/ handy man company. I am licensed and insured however my county requires me to have a GC to qualify my company "as license" but state does not . whe i spoke to the county officers they informed my to find someone and have them use there license or get a competency card. but they could tell m eohow to get it


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