# Asking the HO for the other guys proposal.



## the_turd_man (Feb 4, 2007)

Well believe it. Microsoft does it, walmart corporation does it, warren buffet does it, Look picture your business as good for money period.
If you were in a retail business and you did not understand market trends where do you think you would be? IMHO I used to do the job with markup I felt good about. Well I want more from life than working in 1 county. Today we work in 11 counties in 1 state and 4 in another state. Business is dog eat dog. I dont want to share I want to dog you out and capture your market as well as mine. Either way top dollar or undercut you providing profits are met and sustainable volume will yield higher profits. I will use ever manuver I can to put you in the snow bank while im buying a 38 foot boat. I will work my hardest to know my prices first and my minimum margins. Then I will elvaluate yours. I will adjust however I need to be ahead of you. I will not bad mouth you or do sneaky stuff to you. But I will know what you make, and your quallity of workmanship. If not for this very method I would not be where I am today. The corporate world does it why not me? Atleast I can say with certainty why or why not my phone is ringing. I want to make my job better than yours more features for a little more money so yours looks cheesy. How would I know without looking at your proposals? or your work? Or calling your past customers for a reference on you by the permit ho name cross referencing it with 411.com Amazing what a few minutes research can yield. The hack contractor may actually put a serious dent in your flow. Show hes a hack and you do better work! If hes too cheap he will go belly up. Unfortunately I have yet to see 1 in my industry go belly up in my region


----------



## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

the_turd_man said:


> Well believe it. Microsoft does it, walmart corporation does it, warren buffet does it, Look picture your business as good for money period.
> If you were in a retail business and you did not understand market trends where do you think you would be? IMHO I used to do the job with markup I felt good about. Well I want more from life than working in 1 county. Today we work in 11 counties in 1 state and 4 in another state. Business is dog eat dog. I dont want to share I want to dog you out and capture your market as well as mine. Either way top dollar or undercut you providing profits are met and sustainable volume will yield higher profits. I will use ever manuver I can to put you in the snow bank while im buying a 38 foot boat. I will work my hardest to know my prices first and my minimum margins. Then I will elvaluate yours. I will adjust however I need to be ahead of you. I will not bad mouth you or do sneaky stuff to you. But I will know what you make, and your quallity of workmanship. If not for this very method I would not be where I am today. The corporate world does it why not me? Atleast I can say with certainty why or why not my phone is ringing. I want to make my job better than yours more features for a little more money so yours looks cheesy. How would I know without looking at your proposals? or your work? Or calling your past customers for a reference on you by the permit ho name cross referencing it with 411.com Amazing what a few minutes research can yield. The hack contractor may actually put a serious dent in your flow. Show hes a hack and you do better work! If hes too cheap he will go belly up. Unfortunately I have yet to see 1 in my industry go belly up in my region


Somebody has read the Art of War and applied it to their business!


----------



## farrellpainting (Feb 24, 2007)

typical comin from a honey dipper lol,just kiddin!so you would hire a bunch of robots for cheap if you could so no men have work!!ever heard of feudalism,in other words you want everyone else to be poor so that you can be king?i guess i cant really pin this theory on you cause i know nothing about your industry,but lowballing to cut out the little guy so that you yourself can yeild more money by expanding into other counties/states putting others in those areas out of biz,or forceing them to undercut you is is a continuos downfall in the wages/rates hard working people deserve.walmart does it why shouldnt i, dont you watch the news or read the paper,walmart is terrible for our economy,we need more small biz in the us,so what im saying is everyone should charge reasonably so that we can all eat!!!i think you have your head up your ***,and karma might just push you head first into one of those @#$% filled tanks one day!!!!!!!i guess in my industry ill be ok cause i sell quaility,but its people with your mentality,that have us buying CRAP at walmart,and eating @#$% at mcdonalds,its people like you combined with technology,that degrade the quality of all life,probably going to be the cause of our distinction,buy pushing that one company into a snow bank your actually pushing man into that snowbank!!!

btw who do you think built that boat you want,prolly the lowest possible paid workers(maybe not even from this country)so that the guy that sells it can mark it up 1000% so he can get rich to buy crap that he doesnt need made by other under paid workers!your economics is nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## the_turd_man (Feb 4, 2007)

farrellpainting said:


> typical comin from a honey dipper lol,just kiddin!so you would hire a bunch of robots for cheap if you could so no men have work!!ever heard of feudalism,in other words you want everyone else to be poor so that you can be king?i guess i cant really pin this theory on you cause i know nothing about your industry,but lowballing to cut out the little guy so that you yourself can yeild more money by expanding into other counties/states putting others in those areas out of biz,or forceing them to undercut you is is a continuos downfall in the wages/rates hard working people deserve.walmart does it why shouldnt i, dont you watch the news or read the paper,walmart is terrible for our economy,we need more small biz in the us,so what im saying is everyone should charge reasonably so that we can all eat!!!i think you have your head up your ***,and karma might just push you head first into one of those @#$% filled tanks one day!!!!!!!i guess in my industry ill be ok cause i sell quaility,but its people with your mentality,that have us buying CRAP at walmart,and eating @#$% at mcdonalds,its people like you combined with technology,that degrade the quality of all life,probably going to be the cause of our distinction,buy pushing that one company into a snow bank your actually pushing man into that snowbank!!!
> 
> btw who do you think built that boat you want,prolly the lowest possible paid workers(maybe not even from this country)so that the guy that sells it can mark it up 1000% so he can get rich to buy crap that he doesnt need made by other under paid workers!your economics is nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Look bottom line to me is dollars................. Theres 2 ways to go.
Im highest priced in some areas and lower in others. I adjusted to the market. My margin never falls that damn low sir. So back up there.
Should I have the mentallity to be a hum drum still in the trench kinda guy? Is not business about making money? I started with a shovel and working from a trunk of a toyota camry 5 years ago. with rental backhoes and day labor. I Was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I went from thinking in the box to out of it! Actually if you want to drive someone out you undercut him till he folds and then readjust your pricing structures. Walmart was sued for this tactic of selling below their cost and making pharmacies fold. Worked too then the jacked up the price. If you take offense I appologize. I was the small guy who worked his way up from the gutter through vision and determination. All I can tell you sir is im the lowest in 1 county the highest in some and midstream in others. Its where I fit in. You can want to shove my head in a septic tank really I dont care. p.s my market is not as competitive as yours. Our workload and margins are completely different. I used to paint and you deserve every dime you get and more. :thumbup: You have to realize im playing with profit margins from 100% all the way to 250%. afterall who wants to play in sh!t. It isnt like im giving hack prices. Is it better to make $2k on 30 small jobs? or $3k on 9 jobs? you do the math. First question is how many permits go through the county each year and divide by the ammount of contractors equalls workload. I figgure from there. Funny my workers are the highest paid in my area. And it dont matter where my boat was made I could care less if 6 nigerians whittled it out of a cocconut tree for a bowl of rice a hour. Im not a tree hugger im a survivor. Be a visionary sir and think ahead and you might actually get out of the paint can and driving a cadillac! call em like i see em


----------



## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

farrellpainting said:


> typical comin from a honey dipper lol,just kiddin!so you would hire a bunch of robots for cheap if you could so no men have work!!ever heard of feudalism,in other words you want everyone else to be poor so that you can be king?i guess i cant really pin this theory on you cause i know nothing about your industry,but lowballing to cut out the little guy so that you yourself can yeild more money by expanding into other counties/states putting others in those areas out of biz,or forceing them to undercut you is is a continuos downfall in the wages/rates hard working people deserve.walmart does it why shouldnt i, dont you watch the news or read the paper,walmart is terrible for our economy,we need more small biz in the us,so what im saying is everyone should charge reasonably so that we can all eat!!!i think you have your head up your ***,and karma might just push you head first into one of those @#$% filled tanks one day!!!!!!!i guess in my industry ill be ok cause i sell quaility,but its people with your mentality,that have us buying CRAP at walmart,and eating @#$% at mcdonalds,its people like you combined with technology,that degrade the quality of all life,probably going to be the cause of our distinction,buy pushing that one company into a snow bank your actually pushing man into that snowbank!!!
> 
> btw who do you think built that boat you want,prolly the lowest possible paid workers(maybe not even from this country)so that the guy that sells it can mark it up 1000% so he can get rich to buy crap that he doesnt need made by other under paid workers!your economics is nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The Turdman has adapted the most successful business models to his business. Are they dirty...yeah, I would say that they are, will they work....without a doubt!

I do not shop at some stores because of their business practices, you could call me stubborn? Hopefully you do not shop at any national stores (depot,lowes,sears, mcdonalds,burger king,subway........) they all do pretty much the same thing.


----------



## farrellpainting (Feb 24, 2007)

the_turd_man said:


> Look bottom line to me is dollars................. Theres 2 ways to go.
> Im highest priced in some areas and lower in others. I adjusted to the market. My margin never falls that damn low sir. So back up there.
> Should I have the mentallity to be a hum drum still in the trench kinda guy? Is not business about making money? I started with a shovel and working from a trunk of a toyota camry 5 years ago. with rental backhoes and day labor. I Was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I went from thinking in the box to out of it! Actually if you want to drive someone out you undercut him till he folds and then readjust your pricing structures. Walmart was sued for this tactic of selling below their cost and making pharmacies fold. Worked too then the jacked up the price. If you take offense I appologize. I was the small guy who worked his way up from the gutter through vision and determination. All I can tell you sir is im the lowest in 1 county the highest in some and midstream in others. Its where I fit in. You can want to shove my head in a septic tank really I dont care. p.s my market is not as competitive as yours. Our workload and margins are completely different. I used to paint and you deserve every dime you get and more. :thumbup: You have to realize im playing with profit margins from 100% all the way to 250%. afterall who wants to play in sh!t. It isnt like im giving hack prices. Is it better to make $2k on 30 small jobs? or $3k on 9 jobs? you do the math. First question is how many permits go through the county each year and divide by the ammount of contractors equalls workload. I figgure from there. Funny my workers are the highest paid in my area


i will use every maneuver i can to put you in the snow bank while im buying a 38' foot boat,is what you said!two different industries your right about that,i understand that in your biz you have to adjust your margins for a certain area,you just made it sound like you were out to put all others out of biz so that you alone can shine?i dunno do what your ambition drives you to do just remember that there are more kids out there that also would like the opportunity to own a biz someday!and there are people that count on there biz to feed those kids!dog eat dog yes, but dogs arent very intelligent!

ps thanks for adding in the paint bit,i appreciate that!


----------



## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

farrellpainting said:


> typical comin from a honey dipper lol,just kiddin!so you would hire a bunch of robots for cheap if you could so no men have work!!ever heard of feudalism,in other words you want everyone else to be poor so that you can be king?i guess i cant really pin this theory on you cause i know nothing about your industry,but lowballing to cut out the little guy so that you yourself can yeild more money by expanding into other counties/states putting others in those areas out of biz,or forceing them to undercut you is is a continuos downfall in the wages/rates hard working people deserve.walmart does it why shouldnt i, dont you watch the news or read the paper,walmart is terrible for our economy,we need more small biz in the us,so what im saying is everyone should charge reasonably so that we can all eat!!!i think you have your head up your ***,and karma might just push you head first into one of those @#$% filled tanks one day!!!!!!!i guess in my industry ill be ok cause i sell quaility,but its people with your mentality,that have us buying CRAP at walmart,and eating @#$% at mcdonalds,its people like you combined with technology,that degrade the quality of all life,probably going to be the cause of our distinction,buy pushing that one company into a snow bank your actually pushing man into that snowbank!!!
> 
> btw who do you think built that boat you want,prolly the lowest possible paid workers(maybe not even from this country)so that the guy that sells it can mark it up 1000% so he can get rich to buy crap that he doesnt need made by other under paid workers!your economics is nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




I Agree!
I am not sure everything applies to Turdman but compare Costco to Walmarts' Sam's Club
_
The study shows that Costco’s employees sell more: $795 of sales per square foot, versus only $516 at Sam’s Club, a division of Wal-Mart (which, like Costco, operates as a members-only warehouse club). Consequently Costco pulls in more revenue per employee; U.S. operating profit per hourly employee was $13,647 at Costco versus $11,039 at Sam’s Club._

_Costco CEO Jim Senegal has said: “We pay much better than Wal-Mart. That’s not altruism. It’s good business.”

Chief Financial Officer Richard Galanti explained: “From day one, we’ve run the company with the philosophy that if we pay better than average, provide a salary people can live on, have a positive environment and good benefits, we’ll be able to hire better people, they’ll stay longer and be more efficient.”

Costco’s labor costs are actually lower than Wal-Mart’s as a percentage of sales. Its labor and overhead costs (classed as SG&A, or selling, general and administrative expenses) are 9.8% of revenues, compared to Wal-Mart’s 17%.

By compensating its workers well, Costco also enjoys rates of turnover far below industry norms. Costco’s rate of turnover is one-third the industry average of 65% as estimated by the National Retail Foundation. Wal-Mart reports a turnover rate of about 50%._

Sure business is about money but the minute anything in my business resembles Walmart, it's time to close shop and start again.


----------



## the_turd_man (Feb 4, 2007)

Sure business is about money but the minute anything in my business resembles Walmart, it's time to close shop and start again.
__________________
George Z
Toronto Painting
www.GTAPainters.com 


Nope george im changing my company name to

turd mart
or turd depot

thank you


----------



## the_turd_man (Feb 4, 2007)

originally posted by ferrel painting QUOTE
in other words you want everyone else to be poor so that you can be king?i guess i cant really pin this theory on you cause i know nothing about your industry,but lowballing to cut out the little guy so that you yourself can yeild more money by expanding into other counties/states putting others in those areas out of biz,or forceing them to undercut you is is a continuos downfall in the wages/rates hard working people deserve.walmart does it why shouldnt i, dont you watch the news or read the paper,walmart is terrible for our economy,we need more small biz in the us,so what im saying is everyone should charge reasonably so that we can all eat!!!i think you have your head up your ***,and karma might just push you head first into one of those @#$% filled tanks one day!!!!!!!i guess in my industry ill be ok cause i sell quaility,but its people with your mentality,that have us buying CRAP at walmart,and eating @#$% at mcdonalds,its people like you combined with technology,that degrade the quality of all life,probably going to be the cause of our distinction,buy pushing that one company into a snow bank your actually pushing man into that snowbank!!!

btw who do you think built that boat you want,prolly the lowest possible paid workers(maybe not even from this country)so that the guy that sells it can mark it up 1000% so he can get rich to buy crap that he doesnt need made by other under paid workers!your economics is nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------

yOU ASK ME WHAT WRONG WITH MY ECONOMICS? PLEASE YOU JEST!

If you think mom and pop stores will ever come back you hit the doobie one too many times. (pass it my way please)The world is what it is. I dont know what to tell you , Should we all run off and start a amish community and make flowerboxes? Get real or get run over by progress. If you cant adapt do something less stressfull. I can see some agression in your post, I understand. but hey when was life not harsh.


----------



## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

the_turd_man said:


> Sure business is about money but the minute anything in my business resembles Walmart, it's time to close shop and start again.
> __________________
> George Z
> Toronto Painting
> ...


That's disgusting...


----------



## the_turd_man (Feb 4, 2007)

oh here we go the painters union is ganging up on me


----------



## DamionR (Jan 19, 2007)

how bout turds r us?


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

I love the posts guys. I just wish you could do my eyes a favor and space for a paragraph once in a while. 

Or, are you trying to take over the roofing empire by blinding any of us with more maturely sensative eyeballs? 

Ed


----------



## the_turd_man (Feb 4, 2007)

:laughing: :laughing:


DamionR said:


> how bout turds r us?


----------



## woodmagman (Feb 17, 2007)

:thumbsup: I love this thread…..Being a professional, there is nothing unethical about asking to see the competitions quote if the customer brings up a question or objection that refers our quote is not in line with someone else’s. Bring it on…they opened the door so let the reading with a fine tooth comb begin. Ask for a copy, heck asks if you can take it back to the office and read it over. Apples to apples…
Now if nothing is said about a quote from someone else then don’t ask, you will be sending a message to them that they should be shopping.:no: 
I love the concept of asking the home owners for list of all the contractors that they have ever associated with.:w00t:


----------



## BreyerConstruct (May 22, 2006)

But can you just picture the sign above "Turd Mart"?????


Thanks for the pre-bed chuckle.
I think I'll start asking for the other guy's bids, with the prices removed. I like that.

~Matt


----------



## farrellpainting (Feb 24, 2007)

aggression in one of my posts nooooooooooo!lol,either way this is a contractors forum and you said you would push any of us in your way into a snow bank,so i had to retaliate!

anyway back to the original topic,i really despise the whole issue of peeping at others contracts especially in my biz where prep work and quality is key,and the ho doesnt know jack about it.they could show my bid of 10k for a 90% strip job,and the other co. could make me look like a theif cause they look at my bid and put in a 5k bid to do some scraping hack job.me and the ho lose!big prob for painters,i dont like spending two hrs explaining what and why i do what i do just to ensure me and the ho understand what is needed to do the job right,just to have them waste their money on a hack job cause its cheaper!ive only been in biz 1 yr and ive been contracted to clean up 3 co.'s mess's.whatever ill prevail its just gonna be a bumpy ride for awhile!

if you got what you wanted to do the job then why take others tracts back to the office with ya!its not yours!if an ho told me that they gave my tract to another co,best beleive im goin to get it back!!!no jk!!thatll be the last time you take my tract!!


----------



## the_turd_man (Feb 4, 2007)

farrellpainting said:


> aggression in one of my posts nooooooooooo!lol,either way this is a contractors forum and you said you would push any of us in your way into a snow bank,so i had to retaliate!
> 
> anyway back to the original topic,i really despise the whole issue of peeping at others contracts especially in my biz where prep work and quality is key,and the ho doesnt know jack about it.they could show my bid of 10k for a 90% strip job,and the other co. could make me look like a theif cause they look at my bid and put in a 5k bid to do some scraping hack job.me and the ho lose!big prob for painters,i dont like spending two hrs explaining what and why i do what i do just to ensure me and the ho understand what is needed to do the job right,just to have them waste their money on a hack job cause its cheaper!ive only been in biz 1 yr and ive been contracted to clean up 3 co.'s mess's.whatever ill prevail its just gonna be a bumpy ride for awhile!
> 
> if you got what you wanted to do the job then why take others tracts back to the office with ya!its not yours!if an ho told me that they gave my tract to another co,best beleive im goin to get it back!!!no jk!!thatll be the last time you take my tract!!


 
Fist off quick reply since its -5 degrees out brrrrrr. A indoor day lol.
We dont do hack work. Our work is arguably the best in my region.We are more interested in what our competitor is offering structured at what price points. 
We dont look at the one man band guys, they are not what were interested in. Mid small companies from 5 employees up to 100 are what we are interested in. What innovations or improvements are they offering? What fabulous upgrade do they have that puts them ahead of the rest? 
What selling points the proposal yield? Like I said Im the highest priced sometimes and sometimes the lowest. I can say with certainly dont think for a second the guy with the lower price is a hack. By having a lower price does not mean you do hack work. 
how much time have you invested in your cost analysis of your materials? Can they be bought for less elsewhere being the same product? Or by the truck load? What about my subs? Can I get material from another pit hauled for $60 hour instead of $100? What about your scheduling? 

Can you tighten the rains on production? List goes on and on. See I lowered my costs by good management. Therefore increasing my bottom line where I have room to work with.
So dont go saying someone $1 less than you is a hack. I learned the hard way along time ago how assnine that theory is

The reason you got so many hacks is your location is obvious.
Amazing what needing to be a registered contractor fixes. It weeds out all the unexperienced dusche bags (hacks) And all you good contractors suffer from every unemployed freak with a advertisment in the shopping guide.

Your in a tough market in upstate


----------



## farrellpainting (Feb 24, 2007)

yeah. it really makes me sour if you can't tell. i said before that i dont know anything about your biz i was only retaliating against your post, im over it!! but in the paint biz $1/hr can actually make or break you in some cases(hack or quality is key in the paint biz, but mostly how we present ourselves) kinda hard for you though huh!lol!!!! in all sincerity, good for you on developing your biz:thumbsup: !!! i can respect that now that you clarified! i also am FAR from the silver spoon in mouth, but just another kid such as you were one day tryin to make it, but i would still like for any kid to see an opportunity like we've had to build somethin out of pure hard work, ya know!!! w/o the BIG stompin on him!!!!

btw, if your not already, look into the finger lakes, just dont put anybody out of biz!!!

p.s i read in the paper today that spizter has approved a WC reform!(we definitely need one!)


----------



## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

I looked at a big job on monday. Customer pulls out a big set of plans that the other guy drew up. Then he pulled out a 8 page quote and let me look at it. But next to each quoted price the client had a # written and that was the number that he 'wanted' to pay for each part. Whatever.

But it was great to see what the compeititors were actually pricing out. The estimate was from the largest company in my area. The masterial and design they were pricing out was completly differerent thenwhat they people really wanted.

So basically i changed the design to fit their budgets. It went from a natural looking back yard to a formal looking. I eliminated 60% of the plantings, too off 450 sq feet of decking. Then designed a much larger patio, with alot more features and i am still priced near the other guy.


----------



## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

ruskent said:


> But next to each quoted price the client had a # written and that was the number that he 'wanted' to pay for each part. Whatever.


Be careful with this job, I just got burned on something like this.


----------



## POOLMANinCT (Oct 7, 2006)

matt do you thing he knows its your 1st pool? & he is trying to lean on you? i mean telling you what he wants to pay.. wtf i dont go to stop & shop & offer 50cents for a gallon of milk..


----------



## POOLMANinCT (Oct 7, 2006)

matt do you thing he knows its your 1st pool? & he is trying to lean on you? i mean telling you what he wants to pay.. wtf i dont go to stop & shop & offer 50cents for a gallon of milk..


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Since my pricing is based upon my costs and expected profit, I do not really care about someone elses quote. If there is a question of specification discrepancies, I would have no problem asking to compare mine and theirs to ensure that we are quoting the same thing, though.

Never allow your competition to set your price.


----------



## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Tscarborough said:


> Since my pricing is based upon my costs and expected profit, I do not really care about someone elses quote. If there is a question of specification discrepancies, I would have no problem asking to compare mine and theirs to ensure that we are quoting the same thing, though.
> 
> Never allow your competition to set your price.


Compitition does not set my price. I know what my costs are and I know what I want to make. But I like to stay up on industry trends to see what products others are bidding and how their proposals are worded, payment terms. etc... There is no knowlede that is not power.

Here is yesterday's story. Commercial job, 4 bidders. One went in the garbage for being a knuckle head, so 3 bidders left. We figured our costs, added some extra because it is in the heart of down town Chicago and obviously added how much we wanted to make on the job. We won the job at our middle price... ok asking for the other proposals.

So as we were at the confrence table, my salesman, myself and my production manager. One of the company's partners slid the check and signed contract our way. I then asked him "What systems were the other guys bidding?" He went on to tell me. "Oh I see. I'd really love to see their specification." He said his partner had the other proposals but gave me my competitors pricing. Now I know when I am up against Mathews I need to raise my price, but compared to the lowest bidder he wasn't much lower and is also a reputable company.


----------

