# total disaster



## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

Need some advice from some of you guys. I have done construction for over 10 years now and never seen anything like this. I was building my new home. I started off using ICF forms in my basement until I was above grade. I then switched to a 2x8 wall for the 3 feet above grade. I used floor trusses that were hung from a laminated beam. The hangers where a new style where there are only 5 nails in each hanger holding the trusses to the beam. Everything was fine and dandy. I finished off my sub floor with 3/4 advantech and we tarped it off for the winter. The problem occurred two days ago. My whole sub floor collapsed into my basement. Basically the beam pretty much fell straight down and I have two lean-toos in my basement resting on my three foot walls. I had the owner of the truss company come out (I bought the truss,beam,and hangers from same spot) and he took pictures of it and said he isn't sure what happened and never seen it before. It was only a basement so I didn't have insurance on it yet. The snow was not a factor he stated because the floor system should hold 4 times the weight that was on it. My question is this, what should I do? If they say that they aren't going to cover it should I take legal action? also has anyone had this type of thing happen before? I am estimating about 15k in damage and thats not counting the clean up. I am t


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Is it possible that the short wall kicked inward and created stress on the joist/hanger connection? Was the 2x8 wall called out by an engineer or an architect?
Seems like the ICF should have continued up to the joists.


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## FSCROB (Aug 5, 2013)

Any pics?


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

here are some pictures of the basement.


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

*some more*

Here are some more pictures.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm not usually into this, but I'd call a lawyer


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

I had the owner and the engineer of the truss company out there yesterday. He said the 2x8 wall wasn't a problem and said I installed everything very well. there was snow on the subfloor. He estimated the weight was 20 lbs per sq foot. The floor was rated at almost 80 lbs a sq foot for sustained weight. The basement floor jacks were spaced at 16 feet (20 feet was max in designed layout by engineer).Right now we are thinking the hangers failed. They have a new design now. The hangers are hung with just two nails on top of beam and two nails on the face of the hanger. There is also one single nail into the bottom of the truss. These floor trusses were 14" tall and the beam I used was a double laminated beam that was 14" tall and around 4 inches wide. When we looked at the beam the whole top of it was shredded from the sheer proof nails being pulled out. We are all puzzled.


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## FSCROB (Aug 5, 2013)

Thank God nobody got hurt.

That being said I don't know if legal action would accomplish much. They are just going to claim installer error. Tough luck trying to prove them wrong. You said you didn't have homeowners on it. Does your company have liability, that should cover it.
It looks like if you disassemble it carefully you may be able to salvage most of the materials.


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## FSCROB (Aug 5, 2013)

Are the hangers from Simpson? They are a pretty standup company. They usually stand behind their product.


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

I always wondered what a scissor truss was


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

*hangers*

I am not one to talk about a company online so I prefer not to say where I got them but the floor trusses were from that company and the hangers and beam were also sold from that same company but they ordered them from some where else. So in reality, everything i ordered came through this one company. The owner said he felt horrible and he said it was not installers error. he actually said I installed it better then most he has seen in references to the posts, and beam supports, and nailing patterns on beam. etc.


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## FSCROB (Aug 5, 2013)

That is a good news. The only time I have seen a failure like that was after Hurricane Sandy. 
Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

My first instinct for anything like this is installer error, but if the company is saying you didn't do anything wrong, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to get them (their insurance) to cover this.

It could also be a design error, I've caught a couple in my short number of days.


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

Thank goodness the rest of the house wasn't constructed on it already...

Sorry for your problem.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

After looking again, what holds the ICF walls from being pushed in by the soil? Did they move? 

My next question goes back to the top flange hangers. I've used them and they were maxed out load wise on a 22' span, 24" spacing. 

What type of beam, LVL, LSL, glylam, PSL? Does the nail schedule allow top nails like that?


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

If the beam fell, I suppose I'd focus on the beam, and the support at its ends. Why did it fall? Were there any internal shear walls. What was to keep the beam from coming off the walls at either end? Some shear wall under the beam?


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## Adamsmith007 (Oct 20, 2013)

I can't imagine if you had kept framing and hadn't tarped it for the winter. You have to wonder if it would have done that at a later date and been catastrophic.


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

Golden view said:


> After looking again, what holds the ICF walls from being pushed in by the soil? Did they move?
> 
> My next question goes back to the top flange hangers. I've used them and they were maxed out load wise on a 22' span, 24" spacing.
> 
> What type of beam, LVL, LSL, glylam, PSL? Does the nail schedule allow top nails like that?


It was a lvl beam.it was a 20 foot span from wall to center beam. They were on 19.2 centers


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

CarpenterSFO said:


> If the beam fell, I suppose I'd focus on the beam, and the support at its ends. Why did it fall? Were there any internal shear walls. What was to keep the beam from coming off the walls at either end? Some shear wall under the beam?


The beam was screwed to the wall and was ran to the outside of the exterior wall which was a 2x8 wall. I didnt have a shear wall inside. The exterior wallnhad 6 2x8 screwed together for support.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Where in ny are you?


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

do the 3' pony walls have overlapping top plates?


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Any chance you could post a pic of the layout sheet? (for my own curiosity)

was there the little cross blocks every 4' perpendicular to the joist?


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

Upstate. I livenin potsdam but building out towards malone ny


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

JT Wood said:


> do the 3' pony walls have overlapping top plates?


Yes. There is a double top plate and i make sure seams are at least 3 feet apart. I even stager the top plate and bottom plates


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

mcgrath27 said:


> Upstate. I livenin potsdam but building out towards malone ny


A little too far for me to come check it out


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Were there posts under the beam to transfer the load?


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> Were there posts under the beam to transfer the load?


Yes. Specs said a post every 20 feet. I had them around 16 feet. The were comercial sized posts also.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

mcgrath27 said:


> Yes. Specs said a post every 20 feet. I had them around 16 feet. The were comercial sized posts also.


I think he means on the ends.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

JT Wood said:


> I think he means on the ends.


Yes I'm talking about full bearing over the posts


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Transferred all the way to the ground over a footing


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

If it was the joist hangers that gave how did the beam fall?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm wondering if the hanger nails split the top of the beam, then as weight accumulated on the roof, it finally gave


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> Transferred all the way to the ground over a footing


I had a footer poured 20 in wide by 10 deep down the whole center. The posts were on those. But the end of the beam was on the 2x8 wall on one end and the other. Under the beam I placed 5 or 6 2x8s nailed and glued together for up and down support and that also had the footer under it.


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> I'm wondering if the hanger nails split the top of the beam, then as weight accumulated on the roof, it finally gave


It is weird. The wall where the beam was on bend out. It looked like a bomb went off to be honest and everything blew out. We are all clueless but the nails in the beam is something I may look into. The top of the beam looked shredded.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

mcgrath27 said:


> I had a footer poured 20 in wide by 10 deep down the whole center. The posts were on those. But the end of the beam was on the 2x8 wall on one end and the other. Under the beam I placed 5 or 6 2x8s nailed and glued together for up and down support and that also had the footer under it.



Are the joists in the hangars still? 

Is the beam still laminated together?

Any evidence that the parallel walls to the joist buckled or moved?


It sure sounds bizarre if there is no evidence of an actual material failure


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Also, did you build the walls parallel to the joist taller than the perpendicular walls?

Like up to the bottom of the floor sheathing, Or was it all the same height?

I


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

JT Wood said:


> Are the joists in the hangars still?
> 
> Is the beam still laminated together?
> 
> ...


All the joists pulled out of the hangers on the beam. There litterally is only 1 nail and 4 claw like indentations on the hanger that the truss snaps into. I said when I was installing them I cant believe these will hold everything in place. Other hangers nail into beam and joist.but this is the new technology.beam is still together but top wherenails were from hangers are shredded.


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

I would be looking for expansion in the sheathing. Either the floor or the 3' pony walls. 
But in your last pic the pony wall looks like its pushed in. 

Looks like you have been working on it for awhile, (kids toys, lawn mower). Did it get a lot of rain before you covered it?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

mcgrath27 said:


> It is weird. The wall where the beam was on bend out. It looked like a bomb went off to be honest and everything blew out. We are all clueless but the nails in the beam is something I may look into. The top of the beam looked shredded.


 If the hanger nail split the beam and the weight accumulated and caused the joists to collapse. The sudden drop of the joists could cause everything including the walls and beam to buckle. The sudden drop is key.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

I've seen damage caused by the ground under the slab freezing and heaving the post footings,actually lifting the ridge on a large country club by 3".

Could that be a possibility here?

EDIT;
I'm thinking the beam posts heaved,pulling nails from hangers,then a warm spell may have let beam settle back down.
As the beam tried to return to its original position the pulled hangers may have bound up,causing a sideways force,pushing/pulling the walls laterally?


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

top flange hangars aren't that new.

Explain your floor diaphragm design and how shear transfers in all directions down to the foundation.


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

*here is the floor plan the engineer had designed*

This is the layout plan.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

I keep going back to that first pic in post #5 and seeing that hill behind the foundation,wondering about all the run off .
Any large rain storm,coupled with a heightened water table could have overburdened your curtain drains,or allowed enough water to remain under the slab till it froze causing the interior post footings to lift.
Kind of the "perfect storm" affect,just the right conditions,at the wrong time.



Looking at the last picture,you can see that the sub floor is separated from the beam near the post locations,not so much at the knee walls.
To me this would seem that that floor pushed up in that area,from a vertical force,rather than a lateral movement of the joists.

In ,my original post I mentioned an example of this lift and remember that the floor had to be removed and an interior curtain drain was installed to lower the water table beneath the slab.
Just a thought on something to consider before you move ahead here.

The only reason the exterior wall footings wouldn't be affected is because of the insulating affect of the back fill.

Anyways,good luck with your house and please return with anything you find out .


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

oldfrt said:


> I keep going back to that first pic in post #5 and seeing that hill behind the foundation,wondering about all the run off .
> Any large rain storm,coupled with a heightened water table could have overburdened your curtain drains,or allowed enough water to remain under the slab till it froze causing the interior post footings to lift.
> Kind of the "perfect storm" affect,just the right conditions,at the wrong time.
> 
> ...



When we dug the hole we thought about the rain run off. We dug the hole 4 feet larger than the actual basement and we filled it with sand. We also have a perimeter drain around the footers and we have 8 inches of stone which was rolled with a roller under the footers and about 12 total inches of stone under the floor (recommended by engineer for drainage). We didnt really get much rain at all in the late months. I also checked the ICF block walls for movement and they didnt move at all. They are still plum and straight as a arrow. I think the reason the sub floor was lifted in that one spot it from the other 48 foot beam falling and acting as a pry and picked up the sub floor. I am not 100% positive thought. I will run it by the engineer. Like I said before I have built houses into this type of environment for over 10 years and of course this happens to my own home when I am trying to build. It for sure stumped my engineer.


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

mcgrath27 said:


> Upstate. I livenin potsdam but building out towards malone ny


I'd say 20Lbs/SqFt snow load is an underestimate. I'm in Madrid but working in Potsdam, with the ice buildup, I'd say more realistically, it ws closer to 50Lb/SqFt. Still under the strength engineered strenght of the floor though.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

oldfrt said:


> I've seen damage caused by the ground under the slab freezing and heaving the post footings,actually lifting the ridge on a large country club by 3".
> 
> Could that be a possibility here?
> 
> ...


Good probability. Heave can exert up to 15000 lbs of pressure per sq. Ft. From what I've read


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

...


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

That is a good point.


I built at spec home a few years ago. And we ended up leaving the basement for about six weeks and when I came back to put the walls up the center telepost had heaved about 2 inches and it actually cracked 4 foot concrete stem wall
I actually have video of that somewhere


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I am now thinking along the same lines as oldfart. If frost heaved those posts upwards, it would cause the nails ro tear through the beam. What were the temperature extremes? Did you have straw over the footings? Did you use the proper type and quantity of hanger nails?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

You say that there were 5 nails in each hanger, but your layout shows hangers that require 12 nails for the H3 connections.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Why can't I get the layout plan you guys are discussing?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Post #42 is layout plan


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

I understand where you're all going, but I'm skeptical about heave 20 feet under the middle of a building, sheathed and tarped, one month into the winter. With no evidence of heaving in the ICF walls, and a fair amount of care to keep water out of the ground below. I know Potsdam's cold; I grew up in upstate New York; but I'm skeptical. 

I propose that the wind grabbed the tarp and the floor membrane (Bernoulli's effect is a powerful thing), pulled the whole beam and post assembly over; without any shear protection to stop it, one of the short walls turned a little, and the beam fell off the end. That's a 40-foot wide floor assembly. Lot simpler explanation, in my mind. Potsdam's darn windy, too.

http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/house-under-construction-topples-over-high-winds-130020/


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

mcgrath27 said:


> All the joists pulled out of the hangers on the beam. There litterally is only 1 nail and 4 claw like indentations on the hanger that the truss snaps into. I said when I was installing them I cant believe these will hold everything in place. Other hangers nail into beam and joist.but this is the new technology.beam is still together but top wherenails were from hangers are shredded.


This is what I came up with for hanger type, it's an IUS hanger











Requires 12 nails like Warren pointed out


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Warren said:


> You say that there were 5 nails in each hanger, but your layout shows hangers that require 12 nails for the H3 connections.


And IUS2.56/14 is a face mount hanger, so he was given different hangers. Maybe ITS2.56/14? So these floor trusses are 2x3? 

Can we see a pic of one of the messed up hangers?


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

A lot of good theories at play here...I'm still thinkin' of mine. 

Alien helipad? any crop circles or snow angels? 

Thank God nobody was hurt actually seeing the personal belongings and such... be thankful for that...

Do we know yet, the built up beam and post details? why not a solid lvl?, plans show 2ea 1.75 x 14 x 48? Bolt details? welded plates?, sub floor layout?, were the pony walls sheathed and nailed off completely?, Something obviously isn't right...I gotta re-read this thread:glare:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

It's more often then not a critical step was not followed on the plans. Either the wrong hardware, missing hardware, missing shear, something.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

I hope it works out that the supplier can help you with a solution. But put together a plan to get the project back up and running in the spring without counting on that, to try to keep it a $3,000 mess-up instead of a $15K disaster.

I'm sorry that it happened, and thank God that no one was hurt.

- Bob


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## rjconstructs (Apr 26, 2009)

This is an intriguing problem. Hope you find out what caused it and let us know. I have one thing that I dont think has been said yet, any sign of vandalism?


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Warren said:


> You say that there were 5 nails in each hanger, but your layout shows hangers that require 12 nails for the H3 connections.


12 10d nails


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## littlefred811 (Dec 16, 2012)

Man that sucks. Hope you get it figured out. Best of Luck.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Did you do the decking all at one time with proper stagger? 

Fastener schedule? Adhesive?

It looks like there was a clean break at the partition wall, indicating to me that the decking didn't run continuous over it..

Also, there's a truss joist in one of the pics that's just free and intact... If it was glued and nailed properly, it would have come apart... edit---it looks like it did lose the top chord..


The deck should act as a horizontal shear plane, and if done properly, it would tie all the components below together.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

This thread has got me thinking of how many times I've questioned unconventional framing methods.Not necessarily unused methods,just those I haven't used yet.Kind of makes you appreciate an experienced builder who has already taken the bumps and bruises of learning his trade.

I keep looking at the pictures and try to come up with the some sort of explanation.Some good questions getting asked here that we can all use to hone our abilities.

I'm not sure the real reason will be found.If mother nature,either through wind or freeze, was responsible,she ain't going to fess up,so it may be all speculation in the end.

It could also be a combination of her and the method of construction here.

Lots of things we can't see too clearly either,like nailing patterns,beam to beam connection(short and long beam),plate to foundation connection.........

I did have a couple more questions and hope the OP makes the time to help us assist him in getting some sort of idea of what went wrong.

First:
I'd like to know if the posts were installed before the floor was poured.Looks like there's one laying down in one of the pics.Also if the post to beam connection was mechanically fastened.

Second:
Were the stiff backs installed.Not sure if this is as critical,but I don't see any evidence of them in the pics.

I can see the wind being a big factor here too,since everything seems to be pushed in one direction.Kind of like to know what direction that garage door faces since this kind of damage would make me think of a more violent force than just a heaving of the center posts.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

If the center beam did heave up say 3", the gap at the top of the truss would not be that great since it is 20' long. The longer the span the smaller the gap.

Even the trusses fell where the beam did not by the garage door. 

Does look like a very windy area too, maybe like Bob said the wind lifted everything and just dropped it.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

oldfrt said:


> This thread has got me thinking of how many times I've questioned unconventional framing methods.Not necessarily unused methods,just those I haven't used yet.Kind of makes you appreciate an experienced builder who has already taken the bumps and bruises of learning his trade.
> 
> I keep looking at the pictures and try to come up with the some sort of explanation.Some good questions getting asked here that we can all use to hone our abilities.
> 
> ...


Great post! Wind/Water/Ice/Fire can do some unimaginable things. You bring up a ton of great questions. I imagine that every one of us during framing skips a step or two and go back later to complete it. We often just tack our hangers in and let the laborer finish them after. With stiff backs, we slide them in but nail them later because I feel that installing the plywood first helps get all the joist heights lined up better. Post to beam permanent connections are often made way later, especially if it is steel to steel, as these are typically welded.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

rrk said:


> If the center beam did heave up say 3", the gap at the top of the truss would not be that great since it is 20' long. The longer the span the smaller the gap.
> 
> Even the trusses fell where the beam did not by the garage door.
> 
> Does look like a very windy area too, maybe like Bob said the wind lifted everything and just dropped it.


Good point.
But if the posts weren't properly fastened,and the beam lifted from a heave,they may have fallen over,allowing the beam to collapse into the cellar.
We need more info before we absolve the heave possibility IMHO.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

Looking at this picture,I may be wrong,but there appears to be a telescopic post laying on the floor.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

mcgrath27 said:


> It is weird. The wall where the beam was on bend out. It looked like a bomb went off to be honest and everything blew out. We are all clueless but the nails in the beam is something I may look into. The top of the beam looked shredded.


Sorry for your situation. Is that side downwind of the prevailing winds? That seems to be the initial point of failure. It's amazing to consider the concentrated horizontal force that must have been applied somehow on that connection point to cause a blowout.

Also, any idea how the trusses near the garage door pulled off the beam? Is that wall pushed out, too?


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## intersound2005 (Jan 1, 2014)

I find it unlikely that simpson hangers and hanger nails could fail in white wood yet alone an LVL. I agree heaving could be a possibility if clay soil is present.
another thing that crossed my mind when I saw the 2x8 walls on the icf is that it creates a pivot point or a buckling prone spot or a "knee" where, even though the wall plate is bolted can still buckle with prevailing winds especially if the basement had and open end.


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## Boda (Jan 18, 2013)

One thing Ive read no mention of here is glue in the hangers. While nails holding the hanger to the beam and the joists in the hanger is enough, typically sub floor glue is put in the hangers before the joists seat inside them. This prevents floor squeaks and insures the joists stay put.

Though I doubt this was the reason for failure. If it was the beam would still be there and just the joists would be in the basement.


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## Boda (Jan 18, 2013)

What I think needs to be focused on is the beam, because it is no longer standing. 

I look at the very first picture and see the knee wall bent outward where the beam was resting ( I think?). Once the knee wall was pushed out that far, all bearing supporting that end of the beam was gone and caused the beam to fall, taking the rest of the floor system with it. Or the opposite happened, the connection on the other end failed, causing the beam to drop, taking the floor system with it, and then pushing that knee wall out.

The question is, how did that knee wall bend out that far. Questions that come to mind are:

*1)* How was the beam secured at the other end, not resting on that knee wall. Was it in a hanger, did it come out of that hanger, did the hanger fail?

*2)* Did the footings for the supporting post(s) heave, causing one or both connections on either end of the beam to fail?

*3) *Is there a patio door opening in the basement, or windows that would have allowed air to billow in and push on that knee wall?

*4)* Was the amount of nailing in the sheathing on the knee walls running parallel to the beam sufficient enough, that when the braces were removed the building would not rack, due to wind or other forces?

*5)* Was the bottom plate of the knee wall secured soundly, especially at the point load location of the beam?

*6)* What is an ICF wall? and could that be a cause for failure? Did it settle under the point load for the beam?

Finally I am sorry to hear about your situation, its my dream to build my own house some day and I can't imagine going through this. My heart goes out to you.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

...


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## Boda (Jan 18, 2013)

I just got a look at that PDF. Combining that with the pictures it appears you had a double 14" LVL spanning around 48 feet! That seems like a very long span for that kind of beam, even with supporting posts.

I would imagine a span that long would require steel. Granted I am not an engineer, just going off my own experiences.


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## mike d. (Dec 2, 2009)

intersound2005 said:


> I find it unlikely that simpson hangers and hanger nails could fail in white wood yet alone an LVL. I agree heaving could be a possibility if clay soil is present.
> another thing that crossed my mind when I saw the 2x8 walls on the icf is that it creates a pivot point or a buckling prone spot or a "knee" where, even though the wall plate is bolted can still buckle with prevailing winds especially if the basement had and open end.


I agree with this as well. Also, was the concrete fully cured? I was wondering....Do you guys nail the joist to a beam when using hangers or only the nails in the hanger?:thumbsup:


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Boda said:


> I just got a look at that PDF. Combining that with the pictures it appears you had a double 14" LVL spanning around 48 feet! That seems like a very long span for that kind of beam, even with supporting posts.
> 
> I would imagine a span that long would require steel. Granted I am not an engineer, just going off my own experiences.


Span and product length are not the same thing.


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## Boda (Jan 18, 2013)

Golden view said:


> Span and product length are not the same thing.


I understand that. The length of the beam is broken up into smaller spans by the supporting posts. But you still have near 48' of LVL's, I don't think Ive even heard of one that long before and typically they don't send anything that long to be cut up into smaller ones, its generally a foot or two larger than what you need.

But I digress, my point is that seems like a long distance for LVL's, based on my experience steel is used when you get to that kind of distance, regardless of posts, which steel will also use.

But if the LVL's didn't actually break in this situation, I guess it doesn't matter.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

oldfrt said:


> Looking at this picture,I may be wrong,but there appears to be a telescopic post laying on the floor.


If that is indeed a column post, I think that is likely a major contributing factor. The columns should be cast into the floor on the bottom and fastened to the beam at the top.........


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

Boda said:


> I understand that. The length of the beam is broken up into smaller spans by the supporting posts. But you still have near 48' of LVL's, I don't think Ive even heard of one that long before and typically they don't send anything that long to be cut up into smaller ones, its generally a foot or two larger than what you need.


They commonly ship LVL's to 60' long around here, they'd probably ship even longer if it weren't so expensive to ship......


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

jomama said:


> They commonly ship LVL's to 60' long around here, they'd probably ship even longer if it weren't so expensive to ship......


 they will ship them as long as the truck that brings them


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

I broke into the business in 1981 in upstate NY on a framing crew. 
At that time we cut and fit lally columns under the beam. They were just 3" iron pipe filled with grout. And they were just hammered into place without any real positive connection to the slab or the beam. There was a plate that had little tabs to register the post in the middle and a nail hole on each corner so the plate could be nailed to the bottom of the beam but the post wasn't actually connected to the plate. Crazy to think about now but it did happen all the time. 

There does appear to be a post laying on the slab that leads me to believe this practice may still be in use there. If that is the case, there is a good chance the wind lifted the floor long enough for a post or two to tip over. 

I don't see any evidence of glue in that one picture with the three trusses dangling in the air and partially loose from the sheathing. Again, not sure if there is glue but doesn't appear to be. And what effect that could have had on the wind theory is over my pay scale as well. 

We do need more info though

Just a horrible situation to be in, really sorry to see this.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Jonbuild said:


> I agree wit ur opionun, and also that if it was full length lvl it 'll take a lot of weight to sheer a lvl, just beats me how a post would fall over, it'll need at least a 1/4" lift to losen it, but so much for not anchoring top, and also I always concrete post footings in such situations, just looks neater Any reports of an earthqueak And I 'm sorry it had to happen, my thoughts go out to you


You can check the USGS to see any activity in the last few months in that area


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

Gus Dering said:


> I have been operating on the assumption that the beam was spliced over the posts. Or at least one of them. Have I missed something?


The lvl was a 48'er and it actually covered the complete span.


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

72chevy4x4 said:


> Expounding on Gus's idea, have you crawled down there and looked at the detail where the post was mounted? Looking on the concrete for scratching due to the force of the post as it was falling and/or the placement of the post/beam detail.
> 
> If the base of the post were stationary during the fall, I might guess the top of the post would slip off the beam and puncture the subfloor (if enough depth-seems 14" beam may preclude this). If scratching of the base of the post on the floor, indication that the beam on its travel down was exerting pressure onto the post...all signs to point to the cause.


As of right now I was told to not touch it by the truss company. They wanted to get in and take pictures of everything and he wants to pull the beam out. I told him go ahead and we are waiting for that. I didn't plan on doing anymore work until spring so it isnt a big deal. We have done a ton of business with this company so I think they are going to help me out.


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

woodchuck2 said:


> I find it odd the hangers did not require more nails. I am currently working with 16" I-joists that require 6 nails per side and one underneath. There are two other holes "one per side" that i also choose to nail also. I was always told if the hangers has a hole then nail it shut. I know when my helper and i 1st started setting the joists he was not nailing all the holes and i found when i applied a load to them "set a wall back down on top of them" that his side started to bend down. I sent his lazy A55 back in and nail all holes shut. I can see where the insufficient nailing could cause the joists load into hanger failure.


I couldn't believe it either. The way the brackets are designed is that the circle cuts are mandatory and the diamonds are optional. There is only two holes on top of them (one on each side) and two on the face of the beam (one on each side) then one that goes into the bottom of the truss. There is only another 2 diamond holes in the whole bracket. I even said this exact thing to the other contractor when we were installing them. We even called the truss company to confirm the brackets and they said thats all that was needed. So we used the shear proof nails and hung them all.


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

one cut said:


> I would be looking at the plywood stagger and screw pattern. Did all of the sheets break on the beam? Did you stagger the courses of ply?


I used the 3/4" advantech and I went with the screw pattern that they have on their sheets. I also always stagger the seams by half sheet.


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

jlsconstruction said:


> That's how we do it 3 hours away from him


One thing I have learned over my 10 years of construction is that it seems not one single person does anything like the other. I do like the idea and it for sure seems like something I will use in the future. I just have worked for about 5 contractors and have never even heard of doing that. We have always poured all the footers then the floor and make sure that we have a solid base where the posts are going. But in my case I actually poured a footer down the center of my home the full length so I could move them if I had to. Guess this is the whole point of this website..see what others do and make changes in your building for the better. Thanks


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

We don't even do the pad until after the roof is on


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

jlsconstruction said:


> We don't even do the pad until after to roof is on




We typically get the slab done months after the framing is completed. Sometimes it's too cold to practically place concrete, so it gets put off till the place is insulated and the heater is on.



Sometimes I will drill a hole in the metal bottom plate and put in a few tap cons or whatever to lock the post in place. ( plus the upper ones get lagged in to the beam.) This is to help prevent the over zealous concrete finishers from knocking the telepost out of level, resulting in post that is cast in concrete out of level.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

JT Wood said:


> We typically get the slab done months after the framing is completed. Sometimes it's too cold to practically place concrete, so it gets put off till the place is insulated and the heater is on. Sometimes I will drill a hole in the metal bottom plate and put in a few tap cons or whatever to lock the post in place. ( plus the upper ones get lagged in to the beam.) This is to help prevent the over zealous concrete finishers from knocking the telepost out of level, resulting in post that is cast in concrete out of level.


The remodel I'm on now we redid the pad and the finishers knocked one of my posts like 1 1/2" out of plumb 

So I'll do that on the next one


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

Your pictures show the overhead door end of the beam. It is still somewhat in place.

What does the other end and the supporting wall look like?


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

mcgrath27 said:


> I used the 3/4" advantech and I went with the screw pattern that they have on their sheets. I also always stagger the seams by half sheet.


Screws? What kind of screws and what if any adhesive?


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## Boda (Jan 18, 2013)

Gus Dering said:


> I have been operating on the assumption that the beam was spliced over the posts. Or at least one of them. Have I missed something?


Based on the material list on the PDF and the drawing it appeared to me that a double LVL around 48' (Labeled G1) went from the interior bearing wall to the exterior knee wall. Its hard to make out but you can see the G1 in between the hanger details by the stairwell.

The posts appear to be just support.

Edit: I see the OP just confirmed this a few posts above, I missed that and responded from page 6.


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## Boda (Jan 18, 2013)

In regards to post applications, the only application where we have used LVL beams of any real size is over the garage supporting the second floor that cantilevers into the garage. In that instance a steel lolly column is used , same application on the bottom, a simple footing, with the floor slab poured around it. However, at the top there is a U shaped steel bracket welded to the top of the lolly column. It has 4 holes cut into it, holes are drilled thru the LVL and 8" carriage bolts with nuts and washers are put through it to secure it to the column.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

We have done whole houses of 15k sq ft using all Lvl and no steel. One architect that we work with is notorious for using Lvl instead of steel.


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## Boda (Jan 18, 2013)

Warren said:


> We have done whole houses of 15k sq ft using all Lvl and no steel. One architect that we work with is notorious for using Lvl instead of steel.


I'm not doubting there use as sound. Just saying we don't see much here. Out of curiosity what sort of post and brackets applications do you use?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Boda said:


> I'm not doubting there use as sound. Just saying we don't see much here. Out of curiosity what sort of post and brackets applications do you use?


For the main beams we always get steel posts. If the load is huge, they will make us use a heavier post. We always set Tim on a footer, and they get imbedded on the floor. The top connection is usually made with 2 lag bolts.


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

TimelessQuality said:


> Screws? What kind of screws and what if any adhesive?


The screws were 2 inch deck screws and the adhesive was a subfloor adhesive that I always purchase at lowes.


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

Boda said:


> Based on the material list on the PDF and the drawing it appeared to me that a double LVL around 48' (Labeled G1) went from the interior bearing wall to the exterior knee wall. Its hard to make out but you can see the G1 in between the hanger details by the stairwell.
> 
> The posts appear to be just support.
> 
> Edit: I see the OP just confirmed this a few posts above, I missed that and responded from page 6.


that is true. The posts were just meant to be a support in the middle. I was told that in order for the beam to come off the wall the beam would have had to drop at least 3 inches. The beam was sitting on a 2x8 wall and it was all the way to the outside of the wall. So for it to come off the lvl would have had to flex enough to pull past that 7 1/2". The weird part is...the other side of the beam was sitting on a 2x6 wall and that location is still in tact.


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

jlsconstruction said:


> We don't even do the pad until after the roof is on


I have never done any different. I even had hired a mason to come in and do the cement work. He even said this is how he always does them around here.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

mcgrath27 said:


> I have never done any different. I even had hired a mason to come in and do the cement work. He even said this is how he always does them around here.



Cement work? Isn't that a term from another forum?


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## Boda (Jan 18, 2013)

mcgrath27 said:


> that is true. The posts were just meant to be a support in the middle. I was told that in order for the beam to come off the wall the beam would have had to drop at least 3 inches. The beam was sitting on a 2x8 wall and it was all the way to the outside of the wall. So for it to come off the lvl would have had to flex enough to pull past that 7 1/2". The weird part is...the other side of the beam was sitting on a 2x6 wall and that location is still in tact.


So just so I understand this correctly.

The LVL beam fell off the 2x8 exterior knee wall, hit the basement floor, took the rest of the floor system with it, but the other end of the LVL beam was still resting on the interior bearing wall?

Possible causes could include:

1) With all the supporting posts removed, the weight became so great that a downward and then outward pressure was applied to the 2x8 wall forcing it out of plumb and dropping the Beam. This is probable, because the other end , resting on the interior bearing wall was butted up to another LVL beam, so the force would be directed greater at the 2x8 wall end.

2) The foundation under the 2x8 wall at the point load under the Beam settled suddenly, racking the 2x8 wall, forcing it out of plumb and dropping the Beam.

3) Some force (wind, ect.) racked the building forcing the 2x8 wall out of plumb and dropping the Beam.

Strange indeed.


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## mcgrath27 (Dec 31, 2013)

Just for a update for everyone. I have talked to the truss company and they are going to send me all new beams and floor joists. They said that they can't do anything about the advantech that I will have to bite the bullet on (about $2500.00). They said that they weren't sure what happened but they will stand by their word. What I am thinking is that I will take the subfloor and trusses that are still all intact and use one 20x40 section for a camp and the other side for a workshop subfloor that way I am not just completely scrapping them. In the long run I am not happy...but I am some what satisfied and I appreciate all the recommendations and ideas from everyone. :thumbsup:


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## Rob1954 (Jun 22, 2010)

There are a lot of issues here which could have contributed to that collapse. When there are that many hinges under a floor platform, there needs to be a lot of bracing to prevent horizontal movement.

The hinges are located at nearly every support point.....the knee walls at the perimeter, the columns in the interior, the connectors between the joists and beam. They're everywhere!

When you are working with long spans like you have here, bracing is very important. Shear connections and shear walls should be included in the design. The subfloor connections at the rimboard and joists play a very important role. I don't see any evidence from the pictures or the framing plan of much thought given to lateral load resistance.

If your "engineer" can't figure this out quickly, you need to find another engineer. Something smells wrong with the joist hanger already. The joist layout clearly specifies a hanger which uses 12 nails, and the nailing schedule on the layout calls for 12 nails. The reason you only used five nails can be sorted out in five minutes. Either you had bad info, they sent the wrong hanger, or the installer made a mistake.

The framing layout (actually nothing more than a placement plan) doesn't specify the locations of the support points for the beam. I haven't done any calculating but I suspect you are dealing with loads on the columns which would suprise you. And laminating a few 2x6's together for columns is probably inadequate for the height and unbraced length of those columns.

You have a floor here with large tributary areas which appear to have components and connections which are inadequately designed. Between the building designer (which sounds like you), the truss company, and who ever does plan review for your locality, there is plenty of blame to go around.

If the building designer is indeed yourself, you will bear all responsibility and costs. Best to salvage all the materials you can, hire someone who knows how to design a structure of this size, and put it all back together with proper bracing and connections.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

If you don't know what happened how are going to prevent it from happening again? Why would you expect a different result the second time?.


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

I would have another design professional review the original plans before proceeding...


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## Boda (Jan 18, 2013)

Its great the truss company is sending out all new components free of charge. 

But I have to agree with the posts above me.

Just to make sure a second failure does not happen, even as remote as that may be. I would strongly suggest that before you build the same exact thing, you keep searching to find out why the original failed. Even if there is no solid conclusion you should get a second opinion from another engineer and architect on the design.


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## mike d. (Dec 2, 2009)

I dont know if this has been asked already but, Why wasn't the concrete wall built all the way up? Iam no engineer but I think most of the failure is in that small wall built on top.:thumbsup:


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

mike d. said:


> I dont know if this has been asked already but, Why wasn't the concrete wall built all the way up? Iam no engineer but I think most of the failure is in that small wall built on top.:thumbsup:


I asked that same question about 5 minutes in to the thread. Never got an answer on that or the hanger/nailing mix up.


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## Boda (Jan 18, 2013)

In the OP he said he used the knee walls to get 3' above grade. Why that was needed I'm not sure. If the knee wall was used for siding backing, so you didn't have foundation showing, adding wood sleepers in the concrete wall solves that problem.

He said something about using ICF walls first, not sure what those are.


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## mike d. (Dec 2, 2009)

Insulated Concrete Forms


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Boda said:


> In the OP he said he used the knee walls to get 3' above grade. Why that was needed I'm not sure. If the knee wall was used for siding backing, so you didn't have foundation showing, adding wood sleepers in the concrete wall solves that problem.
> 
> He said something about using ICF walls first, not sure what those are.


Try Google. 

Surely the knee walls were for cost savings, but because of the hinge point, even a PWF would have been stronger.


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## algernon (Dec 31, 2008)

Boda said:


> In the OP he said he used the knee walls to get 3' above grade. Why that was needed I'm not sure. If the knee wall was used for siding backing, so you didn't have foundation showing, adding wood sleepers in the concrete wall solves that problem.
> 
> He said something about using ICF walls first, not sure what those are.


ICF blocks have a plastic stud embedded every 6" or so (running vertically). I'm pretty sure I've seen ICF house with Hardi board siding. 

My two cents: a combo play of losing a post and no shear strength in the corners of the ponywall. The beam didn't break, but the walls moved. So, had the ICF went up to the bottom of subfloor, I am guessing the beam would have just had a big trampoline-sag in stead of tipping out of the pocket. But, as someone else said "but what do I know?" (And I'm sure I know far less than he!)

To the OP: happy to hear no one was hurt, and wish you luck getting the design flaw corrected. Then you just need a nice warm Spring to get going again. Also like to hear about salvaging the old stuff - a lemons and lemonade vibe.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Your Knee Wall failed, possibly made worse by the floor diaphragm acting to displace it as it deflected parallel to the joist layout, pulling the knee wall out of plumb.

Without the weight of a completed house the joint between the ICF(ha-ha)and the knee wall very little strength-- an anchor bolt/strap every 4'? 2-3 eight penny nails at the bottom plate connection, most likely the wall failed during a wind gust CHANGE of less than 25 mph. A knee wall is inherently unstable, like a vase on a pedestal waiting for the dog to knock it over.
Have a competent engineer explain sheer walls to you prior to building again--your self inflicted disaster didn't have any.
BTW, taking any free materials from your suppliers because you don't understand that having an unrestrained connection in a two piece load bearing element will fail unpredictably would be and is immoral, and result in taxing competent builders through higher prices.

This one is on YOU and YOUR insurance, Its a tough world out here, Monkey coping successful designs is one thing, clean sheet designs require some level of understanding the basics of physics and statics


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## kyle_dmr (Mar 17, 2009)

I would like to add to all these shear wall things that have been mentioned. Up here we have absolutely zero use of them. Anchor bolts are nearly 8' oc. No hardware. No plywood or osb on walls just foam board. A 12' wind brace is installed where they fit. We osb a couple walls here and there to help prevent them from swaying. 
So how do any of our houses stand? We get wind here. No earthquakes though. 
Lots of people are harping on him for sheer walls not in his design. I'm gonna say yes I do believe with enough snow load the nails could of failed in an lvl top mount hanger. I've seen lots of lvl beams that I wouldn't use. When we have ijoists with top joint hangers we use hand spikes not the hanger nails for more penetration for this reason. 
Also. The people saying no post connections for the steel teleposts, that is standard practice here as well.


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## packer_rich (Dec 27, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Your Knee Wall failed, possibly made worse by the floor diaphragm acting to displace it as it deflected parallel to the joist layout, pulling the knee wall out of plumb.
> 
> Without the weight of a completed house the joint between the ICF(ha-ha)and the knee wall very little strength-- an anchor bolt/strap every 4'? 2-3 eight penny nails at the bottom plate connection, most likely the wall failed during a wind gust CHANGE of less than 25 mph. A knee wall is inherently unstable, like a vase on a pedestal waiting for the dog to knock it over.
> Have a competent engineer explain sheer walls to you prior to building again--your self inflicted disaster didn't have any.
> ...


unfamiliar term


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Your Knee Wall failed, possibly made worse by the floor diaphragm acting to displace it as it deflected parallel to the joist layout, pulling the knee wall out of plumb.
> 
> Without the weight of a completed house the joint between the ICF(ha-ha)and the knee wall very little strength-- an anchor bolt/strap every 4'? 2-3 eight penny nails at the bottom plate connection, most likely the wall failed during a wind gust CHANGE of less than 25 mph. A knee wall is inherently unstable, like a vase on a pedestal waiting for the dog to knock it over.
> Have a competent engineer explain sheer walls to you prior to building again--your self inflicted disaster didn't have any.
> ...


Nice first post to the forum! :no:

You're off to a wonderful start....


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## Boda (Jan 18, 2013)

... Illl just say I agree with the above poster.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

kyle_dmr said:


> I would like to add to all these shear wall things that have been mentioned. Up here we have absolutely zero use of them. Anchor bolts are nearly 8' oc. No hardware. No plywood or osb on walls just foam board. A 12' wind brace is installed where they fit. We osb a couple walls here and there to help prevent them from swaying.
> So how do any of our houses stand? We get wind here. No earthquakes though.
> Lots of people are harping on him for sheer walls not in his design. I'm gonna say yes I do believe with enough snow load the nails could of failed in an lvl top mount hanger. I've seen lots of lvl beams that I wouldn't use. When we have ijoists with top joint hangers we use hand spikes not the hanger nails for more penetration for this reason.
> Also. The people saying no post connections for the steel teleposts, that is standard practice here as well.


Oh, but i had to build a shear wall in a concrete house... not sure why the **** 
Anchor bolts 7'-10" o.c
Even better, when they miss some :thumbup:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

In addition to what Kyle said, i don't agree with the shear wall comments.
Around my area it is not uncommon to see knee walls built 4,5,7' tall.. I have yet to see a house fall down, floor capped, snow, weight on it.. Never seen one fall down. Not too sure exactly what happened here.. but just throwing my 2 cents into the pot. 
Just a question.. did you piss anyone off lately? Or a competitor :whistling. You never know :whistling


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## mike d. (Dec 2, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Your Knee Wall failed, possibly made worse by the floor diaphragm acting to displace it as it deflected parallel to the joist layout, pulling the knee wall out of plumb.
> 
> Without the weight of a completed house the joint between the ICF(ha-ha)and the knee wall very little strength-- an anchor bolt/strap every 4'? 2-3 eight penny nails at the bottom plate connection, most likely the wall failed during a wind gust CHANGE of less than 25 mph. A knee wall is inherently unstable, like a vase on a pedestal waiting for the dog to knock it over.
> Have a competent engineer explain sheer walls to you prior to building again--your self inflicted disaster didn't have any.
> ...


Show some compassion. No one is perfect,,, except God:thumbsup:


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