# installing grab bars without wrecking tiles and making sure to hit studs?



## vancouver dave (Apr 30, 2011)

I've installed a few grab bars in bathrooms lately. The kind you grab hold of when climbing in and out of the bath tub.

It all went OK, but I did have trouble accurately and consistently locating the studs through the tile and backer board. I have a 'decent' stud finder that cost me about 60 bucks 5 years ago, it has an option for 'deep scan' and alerts to metal and 'AC' but it was sort of hit and miss as to where the stud was. 

Also there's the question of how best to get secure into a metal stud. More so if your stud finder is giving a so so reading. 

When it came to drill the holes, It went OK, I have a selection of tile drill bits from HD, the kind that look similar to an arrow head. 

I do get a bit worried though when it comes to tightening up the screws, thinking what if the guy that installed the tiles went light on the tile thin set on one corner and a bit of pressure might crack the tile. 

And then what? I mean what would you do in that case? Might not be able to match the tile or even come close. Not to mention the headache of replacing a tile and grout and sealer. 

At the end I figured that it's maybe more trouble than it's worth as it's only a half hour job and cracking a tile or hitting something behind the wall is such a head ache. 

Also the liability and responsibility of making sure it's all secure if some older frail person takes a slip and yanks on the bar on the way down. 

Any thoughts?


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I tell people to call the local ADA specialists. They do grab bars all day long.

I don't want the liability and there isn't enough money to make it worth it. They are in and out and know how to deal with all the goofy situations you run into.

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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Look at Moen Secure Mount grab bars.

Tom


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't mess with them unless I'm the one that installed the studs for them. And the so called tile bits you're referring to suck, seriously who uses those?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Legal risks aside, with all the various anchors out there now, an experienced person should have no problem securing one like a rock without finding a stud. That's basically 6 anchors/handle. I dare you to yank one off a wall. But use stainless screws. 

And those Moen things are kind of ridiculous.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

check these out....

architect & inspector approved in an ada bath....

https://wingits.com/products/type/fasteners


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> Look at Moen Secure Mount grab bars.
> 
> Tom


togglers work very well also


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

griz said:


> check these out....
> 
> architect & inspector approved in an ada bath....
> 
> https://wingits.com/products/type/fasteners


they work really well but can be hard to find sometimes


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## nickko (Nov 11, 2012)

i don't like to install them unless i can fasten them to something solid. I have already cut the dry wall out on the other side of the wall and installed blocking then patched and re painted the wall. Sometimes you get lucky and the other side of the wall is in a closet.

Nicko


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Additional options include: check for studs above the tile if the tile doesn't go to the ceiling. Check on opposite side of the wall, then transfer measurements.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

rrk said:


> togglers work very well also


It won't meet ada requirements with togglers. 

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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It won't meet ada requirements with togglers.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


And why would you say that?

Zip toggles come in different ratings. You could easily overcome the 200lb load over 3 screws.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Blocking in the gut stage of course helps. I will also draw a quick sketch of the stud layout pre drywall. Same game plan with Kitchens


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

The sad reality is that grab bars are mostly requested much later than a bathroom remodel, and often with families trying to buying some minimum they can afford...and pronto. Lots of folks end up getting nothing installed, or some real half-baked "solutions" and are then worse off.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

rrk said:


> they work really well but can be hard to find sometimes


Home Depot has been carrying some Wingits GBW35 and compatible grab bars for a little while now. Have had to order GBW40 online once and still have some extra. Much prefer to have it planned into a remodel for blocking though of course.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

dsconstructs said:


> Home Depot has been carrying some Wingits GBW35 and compatible grab bars for a little while now. Have had to order GBW40 online once and still have some extra. Much prefer to have it planned into a remodel for blocking though of course.


the are never in stock, space is always empty I sometimes wonder if they are ever in stock


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tom M said:


> And why would you say that?
> 
> Zip toggles come in different ratings. You could easily overcome the 200lb load over 3 screws.


I believe the rating is a min of 250lbs.

You also can't add the total weight capacity of an anchor to meet the weight requirement. Meaning, I can't put in 3 100lb rated anchors and think I have 300lb's of hold. That's not how it works, especially when the anchors are so close together. There adjacent holes reduce the carrying load of the mounting material. Most ADA anchor kits are rated for 500lb or more and have only 2 anchors with a plate or similar setup to regain the strength in the material you are installing in.

I also believe that anchors are rated for shear force and not leverage, which is what you have with a grab bar. Even though you are only a few inches from the wall the force is still multiplied.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Do me a favor Tom and do a search on grab bar anchors. Let me know what the vast majority of the results are.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I will look. I don't think your correct. I won't go by other internet chatter 

I have the ADA book. So I will see language and testing standards.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Do me a favor Tom and do a search on grab bar anchors. Let me know what the vast majority of the results are.



http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/tech_specs.php

Exceeds Building Code Requirement! 
Most national and local building codes require that grab bars be able to sustain 250 pounds of dead load force. The BB 1/4"-20 SNAPTOGGLE Toggle Bolt substantially exceeded that requirement, holding 360 pounds in 1/2" drywall in tests conducted by the Cornell University / Joan and Sanford I. Weill Medical College / Gerontological Environmental Modifications unit and the Eastern Paralyzed Veteran's Association in the EPVA's lab in Fort Totten, New York, in April 2002. 

The SNAPTOGGLE Toggle Bolt [called the "Toggler Bolt" in these tests] was the only anchor that met this requirement when tested in drywall alone! See the test results here: www.environmentalgeriatrics.com


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

This is exactly why I don't do them. It is a pain in the butt.

If I get asked for them again, I'll just sub it out to the ADA guys.

I'm becoming a fan of letting the guys who do stuff doing it.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

rrk said:


> http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/tech_specs.php
> 
> Exceeds Building Code Requirement!
> Most national and local building codes require that grab bars be able to sustain 250 pounds of dead load force. The BB 1/4"-20 SNAPTOGGLE Toggle Bolt substantially exceeded that requirement, holding 360 pounds in 1/2" drywall in tests conducted by the Cornell University / Joan and Sanford I. Weill Medical College / Gerontological Environmental Modifications unit and the Eastern Paralyzed Veteran's Association in the EPVA's lab in Fort Totten, New York, in April 2002.
> ...


Good Research. That link is bad though

I have the ANSI 117.1 for accessible and adaptable requirements and it is extensive for all location requirements but not a peep for Handrail load.
It did say Grab bar reinforcement should be installed for future potential in Adaptable tenancies but nothing on retrofit.

I looked in the IRC not a peep for handrail loads or a testing standard and thats what we are governed by.

I did find in the IBC under live loads a 250lb live load for grab bars, 200lb for general handrails but no testing standard or assembly.


I looked under snap toggle as you did. The manufacture does suggest the product for grab bar installation. They say 150 lbs in 1/2" drywall. Thats per anchor spread across 3 screws on each side of the bar and your 900lbs. Tile may add strength to the drywall, Cement board even more so.

Still the only thing I could find Snap toggle say was "proximity of the load to the material edge would vary strength" but I could not find a further testing.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I also put a few of the Moen in and they were easy but....its a big hole and what if you discover a stub after the fact.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

rrk said:


> http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/tech_specs.php
> 
> Exceeds Building Code Requirement!
> Most national and local building codes require that grab bars be able to sustain 250 pounds of dead load force. The BB 1/4"-20 SNAPTOGGLE Toggle Bolt substantially exceeded that requirement, holding 360 pounds in 1/2" drywall in tests conducted by the Cornell University / Joan and Sanford I. Weill Medical College / Gerontological Environmental Modifications unit and the Eastern Paralyzed Veteran's Association in the EPVA's lab in Fort Totten, New York, in April 2002.
> ...


Like I said a 200lb toggler won't cut it. And the vast majority of grab bar anchors are not just anchors but an entire assembly that is rated for more than 200lbs.

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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tom M said:


> Good Research. That link is bad though
> 
> I have the ANSI 117.1 for accessible and adaptable requirements and it is extensive for all location requirements but not a peep for Handrail load.
> It did say Grab bar reinforcement should be installed for future potential in Adaptable tenancies but nothing on retrofit.
> ...


But you can't add the toggle rating together like that. You are compromising the drywall when you drill that close to each other. You are essentially perforating the substrate. I've seen them pull out. Hell I've seen a single pull out.

Again the is a reason manufacturers of grab bars design a specific anchor for their products instead of just putting in a couple of togglers. 

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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tom M said:


> I also put a few of the Moen in and they were easy but....its a big hole and what if you discover a stub after the fact.


I never drill the larger hole first. I mark the anchor footprint and drill a few test holes a 1/2 apart. If I find a stud I mark and drill for screws.

I'd rather install the manufacturer's anchor than roll the dice with anchors that may or may not hold and get me sued if they fail. 

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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Tom M said:


> Good Research. That link is bad though
> 
> .


http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/tech_specs.php
tested to 360 lbs


http://www.toggler.com/pdf/toggle.pdf
rated at 268


I have not yet lost a customer to a faulty grab bar so I will keep plodding forward


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

rrk said:


> http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/tech_specs.php
> tested to 360 lbs
> 
> 
> ...


But TNT Rob has already said he doesnt think it gels so forget it. He would have no problem with the manufacturers recommendation with Moen but has doubts snaptoggle :laughing:


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Who say you cant add toggle ratings together? Where do you come up with this information?


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Tom M said:


> Who say you cant add toggle ratings together? Where do you come up with this information?


don't bother


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

There is also the Wing-it grab bar system. 

Tom


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tom M said:


> But TNT Rob has already said he doesnt think it gels so forget it. He would have no problem with the manufacturers recommendation with Moen but has doubts snaptoggle :laughing:


I am entitled to my opinion Tom regardless of your ego.

Yes, I would not use a 3rd party product to secure a grab bar. Using the Manufacturers product ensures liability.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tom M said:


> Who say you cant add toggle ratings together? Where do you come up with this information?


I am sorry that you don't understand, but that isn't my problem. I can't help stupid.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Here's the fine print on their product. Look at the first asterisk.









That means a 360 tested anchor should only be counted as 90 pounds.

I will call them Monday to get the scoop on hole distance. I can't remember where I read about it. So Tom, I will let you know, "where I come up with this stuff". Unlike you I don't just grab a package at the store and trust the packaging and ratings.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Your just a moron. Lol. Go argue with yourself and your bad attitude.

Your table is the same one we looked at only you made assumptions and claim fact.

I will leave it there. I know you will carry on anyway.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tom M said:


> Your just a moron. Lol. Go argue with yourself and your bad attitude.
> 
> Your table is the same one we looked at only you made assumptions and claim fact.
> 
> I will leave it there. I know you will carry on anyway.


Lol...there's that ego again. :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

And yes, I will carry on as long as it amuses me.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Did you make the assumption that it was only 200lb requirement and not 250lbs?


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Dealing with this right now. What a PITA !


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

I install a few hundred grab bars a year. For a little extra peace of mind, i used adhesive silicone between the tile and flange. 

Had to remove one recently, and after removing the fasteners, I could not pull the bar off the tile due to the silicone. It felt like I was more likely to pull the tile off the backerboard. Had to get the heat gun to finally remove the bar.

As for worries about what's behind the wall, you can drill a 3/16" hole or so and go easy as you feel the bit get past the tile and into the drywall or whatever substrate there is. 3/16" tile bit isn't going to damage anything quickly except maybe PEX. 

I know that companies like 3M have double sided tape that I would trust to hold a grab bar onto tile, but I wonder if they would actually endorse that particular use of their product?


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