# California Carpenter wages



## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

I have been in residential construction for 22yrs. On my own for 8yrs. I have gone through 6 employees in the last 2yrs. I am trying to get a better understanding on what I should expect for what rate. 

My thoughts. 
$25 gets you a really good helper with hand tools and truck
$30 gets you a guy you can give a job and leave and have it done 
$35 gets you a guy with all tools, truck, can do take off and run small projects 
$40 gets you a lead that can do take offs, pick up materials, schedule, basically a foreman. 

Am I off? I have been getting carpenters that can’t hang a slab door in an existing whole by themselves, takes 3 hrs for a prehung and upset at $30hr. 
I had another that I had build attic access panels-1x6 frame w/ door stop and mdf panel. It took him 8hrs for 2. Was upset that I told him I wasn’t willing to pay him more than $25

I had a guy for a year @$30 and wanted a raise. I told him He wasn’t far enough along and he said he needed $35 or he was gone. He’s gone. He constantly missed the simple processes with construction but was ambitious and showed up. 

Is this the new standard? When I was making $30 15yrs ago I was running the jobs and doing the work. 

Am I just getting cronies or is this the norm???


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

From what I've heard from a couple of active contractors down here in the San Diego area there is a shortage of carpenters, from what they were saying your pricing looks a little low. Both of those contractors are fully legit, pay all taxes, insurance, etc..


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## Defenestrate (Aug 13, 2015)

So, $30 in your market 15 years ago translates to $40 now? The SSA says that $32K/year in 2002 is now about $47K/yr. (That was the 'average' wage... not specific to the trades. But it shows the trend, and I'm too lazy to do more math.) So maybe for your market, your numbers are a little off.

However, speaking from the perspective of a wage slave, money isn't everything. By your numbers, I should be somewhere around $37, but am taking a little less (SF Bay area, which is not a cheap market) because I like my company. They treat me well, give me around 40 hrs/week, and I get to do work I like (ie, not hack work for flippers that only has to look good for two weeks).


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

The problem is that there is a shortage of tradespeople with actual skills. With construction the way it is in CA, anyone that can perform to the level of wages they are getting is employed (usually union, where you tend to get the highest wages)

The question is: if someone with several years of experience, and, the assumed skills and knowledge to go with those years........is looking for a job? What is their problem? Everyone I know that has even the slightest bit of skill and knowledge is busy, fully employed, and, usually getting a bunch of benefits too (again mostly union jobs). 

In CA, everyone is getting more money. If you have the skills that contractors are looking for....it's a sellers market.


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## B.Johnson (Sep 17, 2016)

You really only have a couple of options:

1. The next time that you find somebody who "is ambitious and shows up", pay him $35.00 an hour and bill your customer $70.

2. Work by your self.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

B.Johnson said:


> You really only have a couple of options:
> 
> 1. The next time that you find somebody who "is ambitious and shows up", pay him $35.00 an hour and bill your customer $70.
> 
> 2. Work by your self.


$70? In CA. His fica,WC, SALT, vacation, HC, Holidays, etc. probably all add up to almost $70 when paying $35/hr wage.


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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

The thing is I have raised my billing cost $5 hr since I started and still not as high as my old man was billing before he passed 8yrs ago. I’m still loosing jobs for being too expensive. Fortunately most of my work is specialty so I stay relatively busy with word of mouth. Only bud a couple times a year. (And unfortunately it’s less than 70)


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## Defenestrate (Aug 13, 2015)

There's a few threads about guys that have raised their prices, gotten better customers and made more money. Scary, but maybe worth a try.


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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

Defenestrate said:


> There's a few threads about guys that have raised their prices, gotten better customers and made more money. Scary, but maybe worth a try.




I’ve thought about it...but that still doesn’t help me find good help


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

tkrrox said:


> I’ve thought about it...but that still doesn’t help me find good help


Good help - those already have jobs.


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

You had a guy that showed up on time and was ambitious?

I'm nowhere near CA, and I'm not talking about wages. You had a guy that showed up on time and was ambitious?
I've heard rumors about those guys. I have one now. Would love to have another. I try to treat him as good as possible. 

If you are paying $35 and billing $70, you are probably billing too low. It would appear you are paying a little low, but I don't know the market. We are to a point that carpentry skills that are lacking are worth it, if you have someone that is a good worker.

As said above, maybe you aren't charging enough. Everyone thinks they are charging as much as possible, but in reality, they aren't. I am guilty of this myself.


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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

builditguy said:


> You had a guy that showed up on time and was ambitious?
> 
> I'm nowhere near CA, and I'm not talking about wages. You had a guy that showed up on time and was ambitious?
> I've heard rumors about those guys. I have one now. Would love to have another. I try to treat him as good as possible.
> ...




Yes but he was also costing me with daily mess ups. I have talked to a couple other contractors and we are right in about the same boat. Some a bit higher but not much. 


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

tkrrox said:


> Yes but he was also costing me with daily mess ups.


All people "mess up".


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

SmallTownGuy said:


> All people "mess up".


I do it almost everyday. I’m just really good at catching it and fixing it fast.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

I read the first post, and I Immediately think to myself: "Does this guy want answers, or is he really looking to vent?"

As I read "tkrrox" replies, what I see is Yeah, but, and What about".

And so, before I get some flak, I'm goig to lay out something:

1. All the good tradesmen - already have jobs they are happy with. And its because they are good - they get to pick and choose.

So my first question is, just as if yo were telling ME you want to hire me: Why in the fck would I want to work for you? I don't know you from Joe Schmoe's. So what have you got? You say money. Well, I already get that now. So what have you got? What the fck - you got nothing good to say about your company, what its like to work there, the kinds of projects you do - THE OTHER PEOPLE I WOULD BE WORKING WITH?

So far, all I have heard, is how you deny yourself proper rate increases, how the other employees are "messing up", how you lose jobs to competitors. And not one damned word about what the nature of your business.

Now why in the eff would i want to work for a loser, get by, no pride mofo outfit like that? Why in the fck would I want to work side by side with people who "mess up" - which tells me you don't think much of your current crew? Which means if not on Day 1, somewhere down the line you will badmouth me too.

You want to get made at me? Fine.

I'll tell you this though: I worked over the years for a bunch of people. When I talk about those experiences, I never talk about how much I made - and no one asks me.

What we talk about was the experience. The fun times, the hard times, getting to do some unusual project, how the boss treated us.

Its not about you dude. No one cares about you but you.
It's about what's in in for ME.

2. Get over your damned self.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Luckily I am in a trade and niche that has "some" competition, but others in your basic building trades like carpentry, cement work, masonry, landscaping, framing and foundations, drywall, painting, etc., have a real shortage of skilled and knowledgeable workers. 

The last couple of generations really don't want physical jobs that require skills that are learned over time. There is also a lack of mentors and teachers for these jobs. So what you get are mostly foreign workers (i.e. illegals and a few legal ones) that may have some limited skills from their home countries, but those skills don't measure up to US standards. 

So what I am saying, in my opinion, based in NorCal, is that this is both your pool of workers and competition. Semi or low skilled workers willing to do jobs cheaply as your competition, or, the same workers looking for jobs for which they lack the level of skill needed. 

If you are lucky, you might find someone that doesn't like the union job scene, but who went through the apprentice and journeyman training. However, these guys are like one in a thousand. Who would want to give up a decent wage, pension, health care and other union benefits?


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> I read the first post, and I Immediately think to myself: "Does this guy want answers, or is he really looking to vent?"
> 
> As I read "tkrrox" replies, what I see is Yeah, but, and What about".
> 
> ...


I actually agree with your points. I was trying to cut the OP some slack based on my experience and what I am dealing with on commercial construction sites, plus a few resi. 

I have read the OPs original statements, and, I think what there is here is: The vision in my head vs Reality. 

Personally, I would love to find someone in my trade that has some skills that can start out at around $25.00 per hour. That ain't gonna happen. The minimum is $30.00, but really closer to $35.00. The cost of living anywhere near me is so high, no one in the trades can really work for less than $30.00, even if you are an apprentice. That is my reality.


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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

Ilegals here in CO work for $10-15, some are good, some suck.

IMO, the best place to find good help is from a younger guy who finished a trade school. I attended a carpentry trade school at a vocation college (back in1982) a two year college that was pretty much all hands-on with a few hours per day in a classroom. Good school. When I finished it was a big feather in my cap when I went job searching.

One, If a guy attended a 2 year school you know he has an interest in a career (most likely). "Being interested and having a passion is a big plus in my books.

Two, you can pretty much bet the guy wants to learn and you can guide him through the way you'd like to have him do things (without being a total nazi about it)

Roll the dice and pay the guy a better than decent wage to bring him on board then throw him raises as he improves. Let him know this the day you hire him. The more he can do and the better he gets at it, the more dough he'll make.

The trouble is finding these guys. Maybe scour the trade schools and get some of the students just finishing up. IMO, some of the best guys are the younger ones who are "teachable" but still know enough of the basics so you don't have to hold their hand....or crack the whip on them.

And for us old farts, there are still some older guys with experience who can step in and get things done. But (like me) they are less productive...but their overall knowledge often overrides that. A good problem solver on the worksite is priceless.

But what I see these days are way too many employers and contractors wanting Grunts. They dish out low wages and expect inexperienced guys to do bull-work AND precision work, dangle off ladders and roofs and work outrageous hours. And all for 12-15 bucks an hour ! A perfect attraction for the drunks and druggies to work a week (screw stuff up) and then quit. And the cycle continues.

I tend to think the construction labor force as a whole is underpaid but OTOH the workers are not what they used to be. I think the same for auto mechanics as they aren't paid enough for what they have to do. And yeah the good ones are locked into a nice steady, good paying gig but there's always new ones out there floating around. I can tell by watching a new worker for 3-4 days how good he really is. Or if they have the potential to be good (interest and passion).

Funny story, yesterday, I saw two 20 year olds (workers at Home Depot) carrying tiles. They had to move them for the aisles, reband them and re-stock them. They were 12x12 tiles in 11-12 count maybe. One guy grabbed one end of the stack and the other guy had the other end. Two guys to carry a stack of tiles ??? as they shuffled along stumbling and grunting. <shaking my head>


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

kirkdc said:


> Funny story, yesterday, I saw two 20 year olds (workers at Home Depot) carrying tiles. They had to move them for the aisles, reband them and re-stock them. They were 12x12 tiles in 11-12 count maybe. One guy grabbed one end of the stack and the other guy had the other end. Two guys to carry a stack of tiles ??? as they shuffled along stumbling and grunting. <shaking my head>


Maybe CO is becoming like CA. A vast, diverse, melting pot of stupid!


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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> I read the first post, and I Immediately think to myself: "Does this guy want answers, or is he really looking to vent?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Listen here turbo...I asked a basic question on what to expect $ vs quality of worker. I have been baffled by the lack of skilled guys and wanted real world insight on costs From contractors in California. (Not sure why you are even putting in your two cents saying aren’t in California)If I need to pay more to get better help fine, I’m just trying not to overpay and stay competitive. You come out and call me a LOSER?!?! Really? 

If you tell me you are a competent carpenter and want x amount. I put you on the job and it takes you 3 hours to hang a pre-hung, you’re a liar. This is plain and simple 

I loose bids...you tell me you never have??? You sit there and ask me what it have to offer??? I didn’t realize this was an interview... you tell me I’m a get by, no pride in my work out fit???? How do you know anything about me or my company from the posts I’ve put up??? if I didn’t have pride in my work why in the heck would I be having a hard time finding quality guys, Richard????

I’ve been working with an old timer that was with my father before he passed. He is getting up there in age was wanting to inject some new blood into the company. 

This a house that we just completed so you can see my loser “get by” no pride mofo Work. 

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=ce12...18983&ithint=folder,&authkey=!ACXU5wISyYM7-f8


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

tkrrox said:


> Listen here turbo...
> .................This a house


I've seen houses before.


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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

kirkdc said:


> Ilegals here in CO work for $10-15, some are good, some suck.
> 
> IMO, the best place to find good help is from a younger guy who finished a trade school. I attended a carpentry trade school at a vocation college (back in1982) a two year college that was pretty much all hands-on with a few hours per day in a classroom. Good school. When I finished it was a big feather in my cap when I went job searching.
> 
> ...




Thanks for constructive response. 


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)




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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

SmallTownGuy said:


> I've seen houses before.















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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> I've seen houses before.




Good on ya!!! I met a few Richard craniums before 


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

tkrrox said:


> Listen here turbo..
> 
> https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=ce12...18983&ithint=folder,&authkey=!ACXU5wISyYM7-f8
> 
> ...


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

tkrrox said:


> Good on ya!!! I met a few Richard craniums before
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I'm an ass hole.
You on the other hand, can't even find and keep a decent carpenter.
Sucks to be you.


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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> I'm an ass hole.
> 
> You on the other hand, can't even find and keep a decent carpenter.
> 
> Sucks to be you.




Not really...I’m pretty blessed! 


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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

Big Johnson said:


> https://youtu.be/Lq4WBOkFNtE



Many contractors (and HO's) here in CO love hiring on these mooching illegal bastards. Some of my "legal" construction friends had to get into other lines of work as the illegals low wages have kiled their honest businesses. Damn effin shame.

Back on topic (sorta) I'm not sure why the OP is getting ragged on. I thought he had legit concerns and questions. Maybe there was a hint of frustration on his posts but hell...hiring good workers is the hardest part of running a business. It's why I work by myself.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

tkrrox said:


> Not really...I’m pretty blessed!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


These are your first 4 posts in this thread:



> Post1
> I have been getting carpenters that can’t hang a slab door in an existing whole by themselves, takes 3 hrs for a prehung and upset at $30hr.
> I had another that I had build attic access panels-1x6 frame w/ door stop and mdf panel. It took him 8hrs for 2. Was upset that I told him I wasn’t willing to pay him more than $25
> 
> ...


If you are so blessed, why you talking so poor?

All around you are outfits building dozens, hundreds, thousands of homes. The ARE finding and keeping good help.

Likely, they are *paying less* than you, and *making/keeping more* profit.

It's not the hourly rate, its you.

You even said you had a good guy, but you thew him away.

Treat people like a commodity, and when they get the opportunity, they will walk every time.


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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> These are your first 4 posts in this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ok this is the last time I going to waist my time explaining. I don’t know why you feel you need to continue crapping on my thread. 

I had an good guy that showed up, was green with not a lot real skill or experience and wanted to make more than I thought I could justify billing him out at. So with your logic anyone the shows up regularly should make top pay even though they can’t be left alone or have the ability? Im fine training someone but not when they think they should get top pay. The others lasted a matter of weeks due to blatantly lying about experience. 

I Have been steadily busy to the point of turning down work due to the fact that me and my guy can’t handle anymore load. That is why I’m looking for carpenters but I’m NOT looking for a place filler. I will admit I am very particular on who I let represent my company. 


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## B.Johnson (Sep 17, 2016)

I took SmallTownGuy's post as tongue in cheek. He's telling what goes through an employees mind when he is considering working for, or continuing to work for you. 

I'm am however willing to consider that he is indeed a dick head. Your reaction to him is all I need to know that I wouldn't want to work for you.

You also mentioned that you were asking for opinions from other Californian contractors, and not people from Michigan. If you read your posts, you didn't previously state that this was limited to the west coast only. Maybe your employee messed up because you didn't make yourself clear. :whistling


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

SmallTownGuy said:


> I read the first post, and I Immediately think to myself: "Does this guy want answers, or is he really looking to vent?"
> 
> As I read "tkrrox" replies, what I see is Yeah, but, and What about".
> 
> And so, before I get some flak, I'm goig to lay out something:





tkrrox said:


> Ok this is the last time I going to waist my time explaining. I don’t know why you feel you need to continue crapping on my thread.
> 
> I had an good guy that showed up, was green with not a lot real skill or experience and wanted to make more than I thought I could justify billing him out at. So with your logic anyone the shows up regularly should make top pay even though they can’t be left alone or have the ability? Im fine training someone but not when they think they should get top pay. The others lasted a matter of weeks due to blatantly lying about experience.
> 
> ...


With my logic, no one would have any problem finding and keeping good help. You said you had a problem. I took you at your word and gave straight up answers.

So after all is said and done, you don't want the truth, because it would require YOU changing something in yourself.

In other words, you're just here to complain. While others are making money.

There are guys on this forum that never complain about getting good help. They work in the same or similar markets as you. Their product is exceptional.

They are making money, growing their business, and speak in glowing terms about the quality of employees they have.

So what's the difference?

Same market(s). same materials, same competition for getting employees. Same need to make profit and grow their business.

The difference is you.


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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

B.Johnson said:


> I took SmallTownGuy's post as tongue in cheek. He's telling what goes through an employees mind when he is considering working for, or continuing to work for you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You’re right I assumed the title made it clear. 


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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> With my logic, no one would have any problem finding and keeping good help. You said you had a problem. I took you at your word and gave straight up answers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My OP was about California wages and what I should expect to get at a certain price point. Not keeping workers. I have let them go because they didn’t fit the bill. But maybe you’re right. I might have too high expectations...


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

tkrrox said:


> My OP was about California wages and what I should expect to get at a certain price point. Not keeping workers. I have let them go because they didn’t fit the bill. But maybe you’re right. I might have too high expectations...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


So it sounds like you need to improve your vetting process of prospective employees. It sounds easier than it is. So, your expectations should be written down for each level of carpenter that you want - skills, knowledge, years in the trade and so forth. 

Some guys that have been in business for some time have all this memorized and know instinctively questions to ask to weed out all the fakers and posers that are out there. They also know skill levels and what you should know, based on years in the businesses and what you claim you know. 

Going through the process and research of what you want, then writing it down will help you realize if you are engaged in wishful thinking or not. The key is the reality of the area you are in (geographic). For instance, when it comes to high and low voltage electrical, networks, security and so forth, I know what union guys are paid and what their skills are, I pretty much know the same for non-union. 

If someone comes to me and says, hey I'm an expert on this and that, then I'll ask them a situational question that relates to what they say their skills are. If they can't answer it, it then comes down to: "Well, you embellished or just plain lied about your skills, what else should I know?"

Like I said some time ago in this post: it appears that the expectations you have in your head are running straight into the brick wall of reality. It's painful and you end up on your ass every time.


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

tkrrox said:


> My OP was about California wages and what I should expect to get at a certain price point. Not keeping workers. I have let them go because they didn’t fit the bill. But maybe you’re right. I might have too high expectations...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


here is my deal

your listed wages are on par with what I pay in colorado 

I have 5 guys working for me

I spend more time being a social worker sometimes than anything, I've interviewed guys and thought they were the bomb from what they said to me when we met only to find out they suck. My deep down stoner meditative personality deals with it this way, find someones strengths and weaknesses, what are they good at what do they suck at and decide how to best use them to your advantage. No one is perfect no one is going to care that much about you or your business. No one is going to work that hard. You are going to have to sit down with your workers and listen to them complain listen to them tell you how they think your an idiot, on and on, it's part of the job

my payroll is somewhere around 1500.00 a day, I probably loose 200 - 300 dollars a day is wasted time, mistakes, and guys jerking off with their phones. I don't loose sleep I don't care about it, it's not worth it

I have a guy right now that I was ready to cut loose after a month or two of working for me. He stinks like booze cigarettes body oder because he doesn't shower regularly or wash his clothes all the time, I think he eats edibles all day long too. Guess what? Two years later he is one of my best guys. He is my right hand man and I'm grooming him to be management material which he will be really good at because I stepped back and tried to figure out what he was good at and what he was not good at

as far as wages, suck it up you have to pay, I only close 30 - 40% of the jobs I bid on. people under cut me all the time, I use my workers comp, payroll, taxes etc as a selling point and people don't care. Had a recent inquiry about framing and I told em on the phone that it was 25 - 35 sq ft for labor only framing, siding, and window set, silence. 

The world we live in is all about the cheapest cost available from t shirts to roofing. Someone is always starting a contracting business and looking to get rich and be their own boss only to find out that the true costs of running a business are twice as high as they a bidding out.


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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

fast fred said:


> here is my deal
> 
> your listed wages are on par with what I pay in colorado
> 
> ...




Very well said. I will admit I’m green at being a boss. Like stated, it had been my father’s old employee and I until the last couple of years. I have been trying to find some more workers so I wouldn’t have to turn down as much work. The thing when I look at the books it’s pennies that I’m making with added help since it’s keeping me from my work. I guess there is a leap there like all steps in business. 


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## calmod (Aug 16, 2011)

*carpenter wages*

I'm in Los Angeles and I've only read parts of this thread. yep, when I made 30$ an hour 15 years ago I was the bomb as a lead carpenter. A web inflation calculator shows that $41 dollars per hour now. I had a van, full tools, and hustle. If I could find the old me now, I would pay him that much money and kick back a little. 
wages are high in high cost of living states so all the guys in low cost of living states can't understand what it really costs to live here. That's cool as I may well end up living somewhere else soon. 
$30 per hour is the bare minimum I pay as my workmens comp kicks up under that rate. That's reality. Good guys cost me more as they can command it and they're worth every penny. Find the best guys you can and pay them what it takes. I lose jobs all the time due to " contractors" with cheaper labor. That's what it is . I can't handle ****ty work so pay the cost for good work


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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

calmod said:


> I'm in Los Angeles and I've only read parts of this thread. yep, when I made 30$ an hour 15 years ago I was the bomb as a lead carpenter. A web inflation calculator shows that $41 dollars per hour now. I had a van, full tools, and hustle. If I could find the old me now, I would pay him that much money and kick back a little.
> 
> wages are high in high cost of living states so all the guys in low cost of living states can't understand what it really costs to live here. That's cool as I may well end up living somewhere else soon.
> 
> $30 per hour is the bare minimum I pay as my workmens comp kicks up under that rate. That's reality. Good guys cost me more as they can command it and they're worth every penny. Find the best guys you can and pay them what it takes. I lose jobs all the time due to " contractors" with cheaper labor. That's what it is . I can't handle ****ty work so pay the cost for good work




Right I’m the same. I would gladly pay 40+ for myself 15yrs ago. And you’re right I drop from 43% under $30 to 13% over $30, but I have a real hard time paying a dude $30 when he can’t even figure out how to cope base. 

I’m with you on leaving Cali. I’ve been researching different places. I really like Idaho, but from what I’ve heard everyone else does too and prices have really inflated because of it


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