# OSHA says I should have had fall protection



## bmartin

The fine is for fall protection and the suppliers of the osb would not be responsible for another companies fall protection.


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## Kristina

briselec said:


> Yes, but that's not the issue he needs to address at his appeal. He needs to prove that he cares about his workers and tries to provide a safe workplace. That's the only thing that will help reduce the size of the fine. Going on about what someone else did that caused the fall won't help him one bit and could very easily make it worse for him.
> From an OHS point of view, saying that the felt rolls weren't adequate to hold the OSB begs the question why did you not assess that risk and take appropriate action.


Yeah that. Fall protection when crawling around on a roof. Period. They make cute little kits in a bucket. :thumbsup: One for each guy. 

Accept your accountability. Just because other people do jackass stuff, doesn't mean you should get away with not assessing that fact. I would've brawled with the roofing guys for time on the roof. 

Sure it would suck to lose the time waiting for them to finish but it beats losing a guy and a lawsuit.


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## americangutters

Thank you all for replying. I'd still like to keep this topic going at least until the hearing. 

Kristina - I had that cute little harness in a bucket, and like I said...nowhere to anchor it when roofers are all over the place laying felt. Should I have waited? Easy to say when you aren't stacked up with two weeks worth of gutter jobs and the only way you can afford to pay your labor (what they are worth) requires a minimum of ten gutter jobs every two weeks, assuming you want to work weekends. 

I know it's easy to armchair quarterback, and I'm not looking for that. Believe me...I've been armchairing this one myself for over a year. Coulda shoulda woulda. But again I never believed i was in the wrong under 20 feet during roofing operations and this was a roofing operation by all definition. Had the roofer chosen to do the gutter work himself, he would never have been fined because he's a roofer. What I'm arguing is the double standard. Just because you don't have some big association backing you like NRCA doesn't make it right.


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## Teetorbilt

There is no excuse for lack of safety. A few years ago I developed vertigo and now use ground screws, trees, trucks or whatever to secure tethers to. When using a truck, be sure that it is yours and that the keys are in your pocket.


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## asbestos

I taught fall protection full time for a year, mostly to tower guys but the regs are more or less the same. Was the gutter guy on a ladder? in general ladder work is exempt (don't know about CA) If the guy was on the edge of the roof leaning over I would have to say that it does not look good for your team. Of course it could be possible that fall protection could have made the situation more dangerous. but that is always a tough sell, with good reason. 

As far as those kits in a box, they work great with a bit of training and motivation. problem is people always have so much slack they will hit the ground before the system ever stops them. Shack roofers use their FP correct 30% of the time on a good day.


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## Safety-Guy

It has been about a year since I took my Cal-Osha class but I beleive that they require fall protection on a ladder when you are over 7 1/2 feet.
Don't hold me to that (I live in Florida, the tourist state)but I beleive that is what it was.


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## briselec

americangutters said:


> What I'm arguing is the double standard.


It's like one of the rules here. You can't work over a certain height on an extension ladder - unless you're an electrician. What the? electricians bounce better or something!?


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## Pearce Services

I'm sure that "OSHA", and "Common Sense" do not always work well together, but how would being tethered to a roof in this case prevent any injuries?

So the lift of OSB knocks him off the roof, and he is dangling 6' below the gutters, and 30 sheets of OSB now come falling over him. I think he is more dead in that situation. 

Given a choice to tie off and be a sitting duck, I would take my chances untethered, and would try to find some justification that it was the safest method given the unique circumstances.... But unfortunately this accepts knowledge of the risk, which in itself is an admission of some responsibility.


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## Bigbricklayer

I know it's no laughing matter and nothing to joke about but my boss always told me "Your'e fired on the way down"


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## camaroman2125

> but my boss always told me "Your'e fired on the way down"


I had a boss that used to say that also and actually did it when we had a guy fall of a ladder on to asphalt. Needless to say he doesn't have a company anymore cause he got sued for wrongful termination and numerous other things.


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## americangutters

Pearce - That's exactly what my employee told me. By the way, even though I was Rob's employer, it was just the two of us and we debriefed this accident extensively. 

He told me that in a split second he made the decision to jump off the roof because the load of OSB was too big to get over. He said he remembered picking a "soft" spot on the ground and just stepping off. He said he landed pretty good and doesn't remember anything else. That's because 30 sheets of OSB came down on him, breaking his arm and knocking him out. He doesn't think any of his injuries came from the fall itself because he remembers it clearly. 

Asbestos - ladder work was not feasable on this job (two story 100+ yr old residence), and would have been more hazardous. Someone mentioned anchoring to trees which I think is senseless since it requires climbing the tree? What anchor point does one use climbing the tree to secure your anchor point??

I get the gist of everyone's direction - and I can tell you this for sure. Had I to do it all over again, I still would not use fall protection and simply told the roofer to back off until the gutters are done + take notice of the OSB and secure it somehow. I've never roofed or worked in the roofing trade so my awareness of the OSB that day was nill. I just put gutters on and now I'm a little wiser to the way it is supposed to be loaded. In the end, fall protection had nothing to do with this accident IMHO. How OSHA sees it will be different for sure. 

Four days and counting.


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## americangutters

Asbestos - I used those harnesses in a bucket "twice", and you are absolutely correct that shack roofers hardly use them and then use them in such a manner that they don't do much good. 

With gutters, you have to be able to move laterally along the roof edge to tack down the entire length of gutter (the "run") being installed - (sometimes a distance of 50 feet). This requires an anchor point centrally located within that distance (usually the middle of the ridge above where you are installing the run). In order to reach each end of the run, you have to have enough length on your lanyard to reach that distance. This means you will end up with slack in the line when you reach the center unless you clean up the slack as you go. 

Therein lies the biggest problem gutter guys have with PFP harnesses, as do I. 

1) Unless your deck surface is slick, the rope will continously get hung up on something (a nail, staple, shingle, vent stack, condensate lines, gass lines, etc.) distracting you from your task and taking away safety concentration because you have to tend the rope constantly.

2) The excess rope beyond the belay anchor point always falls between the gutter and the roof edge and has to be reeled up and out of the way during installation and constantly monitored so it doesn't slip back down. You could sling it over the top of the gutter when you and your partner are standing there with the gutter, but you try holding a 50 foot length of gutter in one hand at the edge of the roof while slinging 20 feet of rope over the gutter and side of the building. 

3) The perfect system would be your own personal helicopter that folows you from above and keeps your rope taught and out of the way wherever you go. If all I had to do was climb a scaffold and then tie off and work in one spot, the harness would be great. But in gutters, you have to traverse the entire roof in all directions. There's no harness system that can go with you without requiring one hand on the descender at all times. This means you become a one-arm gutter guy...
Not a safe situation either wouldn't you say?


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## PipeGuy

americangutters said:


> ... There's no harness system that can go with you without requiring one hand on the descender at all times.


Sounds like a piece of equipment begging for marketing. A self tending inertial reel that applies a brake upon rapid acceleration (unwinding) of the spool. Kinda' like the mechanism that loacks a seat belt upon collision.


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## americangutters

Pipie Guy - They have retractable lifelines available and they are pricey to try out but worth it if they are practical. 

http://www.safetycompany.com/fall-protection-self-retracting-lifelines/c_7_49.html 

I don't think I would have used them frankly. Most of my installs occur during roofing operations when there is personnel activity on the roof and a lifeline presents trip and fall hazard. Anchor points require exposed wood and steel surface. Residential re-roofing does not afford that luxury.


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## americangutters

sorry....Pipe...not pipie


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## Safety-Guy

Americangutters,
From the latest posts you said basicaly that the employee chose not to use fall protection.
If you have a fall protection program and trainig records for that employee you should be cleared due to him being trained and choosing not to wear fall protection, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.
That is unless you or a supervisor was on site.


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## Kristina

So, is there some issue with using scaffolding that stretches the length of your run?

You are right about the OSB in that whether or not it was appropriate to be on the roof at all was beyond your scope of practice. That said, whether or not is was SUPPOSED to be there is irrelevant, the fact is, there were 30 sheets of OSB on the roof that were not safely secured. You allowed your guy to work underneath it.

In this situation, a tether would have been useless, scaffolds would've been useless, the only thing that was practical and safe was to cease work until the OSB was secured safely or removed. 

I agree about the presence of PFP and documentation of inservicing. If you provide everything and have a policy in place that it is REQUIRED and he didn't use it, not your fault. 

This is all just to cover your own ass. I'd be all over the roofers ass about the OSB. He'd know whether it was supposed to be there and certainly knows how to properly secure it.


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## Grumpy

americangutters said:


> 1) Had the roofing contractor elected to do the gutters himself on this job and the same accident occurred, I believe he would NOT have been cited because he was a roofer and the 20 foot rule applies to him and his crew.


Curious question. I wonder if that would double classify an employee. I mean in insurance audits we have our employees classified by what they are doing, and gutters/sheet metal work carries a lesser rate of coverage. Would Osha also double classify trades based on what they were doing at the moment of incident?

I can't answer that question... But I bet it is grounds for appeal.


So what are you planning on doing now, Americangutters?


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## americangutters

This employee was my only employee and we worked side by side. No supervisors, middle management, nothing. I owned two gutter machines and two trucks and we were the crew. I did not have a "safety program" (I am being fined for that as well). I did not have "safety meetings." Usually over coffee, Rob would say "I'd feel better on a ladder" and that's the direction we went regardless of whether I felt different. We had each other's back at all times and always voiced our concerns if we had any. We always walked the roof together and neither of us felt obligated to take excessive or unesscessary risks for a stupid gutter job. We both had wife and kids to go home to. For this reason I paid him very well and took very good care of him. Rob got paid hourly, not by the job or the foot and he knew how I felt about safety. I bought he and myself both harnesses for those sketchy jobs and we used them *twice* and hated every minute of it! Those harnesses create more hazard sometimes! Anyway, you can probably imagine how horrible I felt pulling 30 sheets of OSB off him! I'll admit that I broke down as they loaded him into the ambulance. I broke down at the hospital on two other occassions. I wasn't upset for me. I prayed and my church prayed that Rob would be ok...and he was in the end. 

It took all I could not to get into a tussle with the roofers. In fact, Rob's Uncle showed up and I dang near had to call the cops. It was downright ugly. Violence doesn't solve a thing. But you know how I felt Kristina 

I know OSHA sees it differently, and frankly at this point I'm starting to doubt my chances more than ever. 

But I feel so strongly that this was and is bull-pucky that I sold the machines and trucks, CANCELLED my contractor's license forever and I will NEVER get into the trades ever again. What a huge crock. 

There's a thread on here asking "What would you do differently if you had it to do all over again." 

My answer: Get a good education and stay out of the labor industry!


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## americangutters

Grumpy...thanks for asking and thanks for letting me vent here


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## americangutters

> Anywhere in California where I framed when we stacked roofs we put in cleats and temp decks to compensate for the stacks height and weight.


A+ .... you get an A+ . ROOFERS/FRAMERS PLEASE....ALWAYS SECURE YOUR LOAD


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## A+Carpenter

I think you and your employee have a great case against the roofer. I would not leave that side down one bit. 

I am sure he would sue you just as quick. This falls back to the whole homeowner suing the contractor theme. I have never been sued or hopfully never will be. I practice strong work ethics on saftey. I also have a policy ©YOUR FIRED BEFORE YOU HIT THE GROUND©


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## briselec

americangutters said:


> How do we change that? I would be willing to put in some effort on educating people.



Education won't do it. The only thing that will force an industry to put it's rate up to cover fall protection is a few big fines handed out during a blitz by the OHSA.


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## Pearce Services

How has all this affected the homeowner???

Can you use this to your advantage, brand yourself as the only true professional in your area that does the job per OSHA standards, and charge for it, educate your customers about the hazards of untrained, unsafe workers and how it could cost them if someone gets hurt.

Create a brochure to this effect, along with a safety manual. Start bidding jobs at $7/lf. Become an advocate for the cause, then bring all this to your hearing and show them how you have eliminated the potential for this type of injury, and that you are on their side on this.
Beg for mercy, and promise that if the fine does not put you out of business, the world will be a safer place for that. Then keep your promise, and start making some money.


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## A+Carpenter

Pearce Services said:


> How has all this affected the homeowner???


has nothing to do with the homeowner. I was simply using the term loosley to compare the scenario


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## americangutters

Briselec - I couldn't agree more. It has to become an issue and unfortunately, it's not. Once this hearing is done I plan to sit down with all the local gutter guys (since I am no longer in competition with them) and summarize this case for them just out of the goodness of my heart. I might send notices to local roofers too and explain the case so they are aware of potential hazards, but really it comes down to whether the cost of fall protection can be recovered in the bid while staying competitive. 

In California I don't believe that's possible unless OSHA and LaMigra steps in and starts cracking down. 

In terms of the homeowner in this scenario, he happens to be a retired insurance claims adjuster and he isn't sweating it a bit. I doubt he would pay more for better safety, he could care less. Most property owners don't even check insurance, they just see the lowest bid. I lost a bid on a local strip mall for a difference of .75 per foot. When the owner called me and asked me why I couldn't go lower I told him straight up "Stewart uses mexican labor and manipulates the work comp loophole through payroll. I play by the rules. Sorry if you can't understand that." 

That hurt!


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## americangutters

Well.... that was interesting. The presiding administrative law judge was not present. A visiting judge cited a recent case where the fine was "zero'ed" after determining that the company went out of business (Sheffield Furniture Company, something or other). She is going to send me a "declaration" to fill out basically saying I am out of business and will not re-organize to avoid penalty. The Division had no objection and now I'm on stanby.

Zero-ing the fine is great, but it doesn't render a judgmnent regarding fault or violation. I assume someday that COULD come back to bite me if the Roofing Company insurances get ugly on me, but at this point I think I am going to count my blessings...... 

Isn't that just peachy?


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## Joasis

Seems like I said that is what would happen. Now, since you learned so much from this, next time.....(we all learned from this thread)...don't specialize.


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## A+Carpenter

americangutters said:


> Well.... that was interesting. The presiding administrative law judge was not present. A visiting judge cited a recent case where the fine was "zero'ed" after determining that the company went out of business (Sheffield Furniture Company, something or other). She is going to send me a "declaration" to fill out basically saying I am out of business and will not re-organize to avoid penalty. The Division had no objection and now I'm on stanby.
> 
> Zero-ing the fine is great, but it doesn't render a judgmnent regarding fault or violation. I assume someday that COULD come back to bite me if the Roofing Company insurances get ugly on me, but at this point I think I am going to count my blessings......
> 
> Isn't that just peachy?


Don't put this back into the corner? I would sue that roofers arse off for your guys anguish. Your out of business right now and that means OHSA cant touch you after they seal your case closed. 


SUE SUE SUE that roofer.PM ME his name and I will set the course for you.


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## A+Carpenter

joasis said:


> Seems like I said that is what would happen. Now, since you learned so much from this, next time.....(we all learned from this thread)...don't specialize.



Like he said yea thats right.Only thing I learned is that I just seen a guy lose his business over somones negative saftey conduct.


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## americangutters

Hey A+.... dude I felt so much like suing a year ago it wasn't funny. I know I have a case against him and I would love to simply recover what I lost in resale of the hard equipment (ie the gutter macines and the trucks). I just don't have it in me at this point and I am so lucky on so many levels.

1) A friend walked away from a serious fall
2) I landed a decent job with great retirement and bennies
3) OSHA will zero the fine (as long as I stay out)
4) I'm not getting sued by my employee (although liability is clear, I'm still exposed)

Ultimately I don't believe what happened was fair to me. and it's tempting to sue.... What's your email A+? I'll contact you outside of this forum to see what you suggest. 

Thanks,

Mike


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## Joasis

I didn't have divine insight to how OSHA would handle this. What I do have is years of experience dealing with the Feds in Aviation, and they have a simple policy: No matter what agency, no matter who is right or wrong, if you give up the certificates/licences/ratings, they will always let a guy off the hook EXCEPT when something has happened that results in serious death/injury. Simple explanation...a mechanic screws up and a plane makes a forced landing, or better yet, a plane makes a forced landing, and a FED looking at the logs discovers the mechanic didn't cross a T or dot an I, and the fun begins...and the mechanic is faced with years of litigation or simply tuning in his license, and it all goes away. OSHA operates the same way.


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## Teetorbilt

Sorry joasis, (I'm a pilot too) I'm finding it difficult to compare the FAA to OSHA with the exception that they are both Federal agencies. Let's not compare apples to truffles.


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## Joasis

I beg to differ...from what I have seen, Federal agencies operate the same....IMO...I guessed he would get off after they became aware of his surrender of contractors license and ceasing operations...I have seen pilots and mechanics ( I have both ratings + IA, no longer active) get off the same way..surrender, and the Feds are happy.

Perhaps Teetorbilt, I am not using a great analogy, but every time I have seen a regulating agency at work, and I just thought of another industry that does it the same, trucking. The DOT will fine you silly over the smallest of things untill you comply totally, or give up your authority to operate...of course, the DOT is larger then life, and getting bigger every day...we don't see a lot of OSHA in Oklahoma, except on commercial work sites...and all I hear from them is the hard hat rule.


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## Teetorbilt

I'll admit that they all use the same large numbers for fines and big Fed jail sentences. I face them semi-annually for some minor infraction or another.

They do have the clout and will threaten you even to a face to face with the Secret Service. Threaten to go to the media and they back off, post haste. Right is right and wrong is wrong, as long as you are right you have nothing to fear. Even if it costs you $140K to prove it.

By the people, for the people. I'm looking hard at Costa Rica and taking my chances.


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## wellbuilthome

You guys are making me think . I have been working in the trades for 30 years and have never had to deal with OSHA . I'm a residential contractor . I do lots of roofing & siding framing and have never even seen any safety gear except in a catalogue . Ive never even seen any other contractor with it up on a house? My roofers don't use any type of harness . Is any one using this gear in lower NY state on residential work . I was in the carpenters union in the late 80s and i don't think we used that type of gear . I mite be the only guy that has ever had a Workers comp claim on my job . Whats the deal. John


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## newenergy

Yeah, if someone really knows this stuff and would break it down that would be great. There seems to be a requirement from OSHA (federal) for fall protection for roof work over 6' high. For Cal/OSHA it seems to be 20' for roofers, but 7.5' for anyone else?

I install solar panels on roofs, could that get the 20' exception from Cal/OSHA? But what if I'm still subject to federal OSHA?

In practice, we and everyone else in the industry use fall protection when it seems necessary - on steep or slick roofs.

What about the requirements for fall protection on a ladder? How can you have a 7.5' requirement for the ladder, but then 20' requirement for the roof? Does that 7.5' only apply if you are working from the ladder?

edit: I found sources about the ladder and no fall protection required on portable ladders - still looking for anything specific on roof workers other than roofers. Also, seems like Cal/OSHA is required to be generally as strict as OSHA, but not in every single case and that it supercedes OSHA for Cali. Also, seems like the 20' rule has been changed to 15' for new construction only, I think. So many rules.


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## Imgetinrite

I am new to this site....

My name is Kevin, and I recently got cited by OSHA for not having fall protection on a roof.

We are a small company with 4 guys. We never had any injury's in the 19 years we have been in business. So, there was never a need for any kind of safety program.

I have not received the actual fine yet, anyone know what this might cost me?

Since the citation, I have written a safety paper and had all the guys sign and date it. 
What else can I do to get my fine down?


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## ApgarNJ

This fall protection for over 6 ft rule is a joke. how many guys are going to harness up to go up an 8' step ladder, 

I missed this thread the first time around. The company who stacked the osb should be at fault, along with the roofer. Even a guardrail system on a pick wouldn't have stopped 30 sheets of OSB from taking out someone standing on it. 

OSHA is out of control in so many ways. Glad they don't bother most residential construction jobsites unless they are high profile and near a major city.


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## KennMacMoragh

ApgarNJ said:


> This fall protection for over 6 ft rule is a joke. how many guys are going to harness up to go up an 8' step ladder,


With ladders you get 25' before you need a harness, last I checked.


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