# Employee's Moonlighting? Okay or Not?



## J-Peffer (Mar 3, 2007)

Operating a Roofing company:

Over the past few years we've grown fairly steady and we are never really short of work in our season.

I have a few guys that are really good workers. Sure, I can find flaws in them, but I'm happy to have them, as I've had much worse, and I know there are worse out there.

A few years back, a friend who was helping me out did a roof replacement on a weekend for his parents friends. They live right next door to his parents summer cottage. It was a very small job, 12 square, so I was happy to let him use a nailer, and some basic equipment.

Later that year, another employee did a roof for his Dads friend. About a 20 square job over a weekend, that rolled into Monday.

This year, I over heard him talking about doing it again. 

How do you guys handle these situations? 

I've considered paying them a commission on the sale, but I don't want guys that work for me out working on jobs with no workman's comp or liablity insurance for "family friends". Or if they are, certainly not with my equipment. I feel you can't work in this field 5 days a week, and do a job over the weekend and come back Monday ready to go. 

While I'm at it, where do you pull your best employee's?

We have a terribly high unemployment rate, 13%+. But it's hard to find a good capable roofer. The work is controlled by the weather, even though generally we are working the guys more than they can handle. 

Anyone try Manpower? or temp agencies?

Regards! and Thanks!


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## dave_dj1 (Mar 16, 2010)

If it's just for family I wouldn't have a problem with it. In fact I would offer up what equipment they needed, sort of as a perk of their employment.
If they start taking on customers then that is a different story all together.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

Let them do the side work but I would by no means be associated with it as an employer, i.e. equipment.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

I've had a few guy's do that over the years. I'd say maybe it's ok for family.
But, I started seeing my supplies were going quicker. ie: They were snagging materials to use on their side jobs. :furious:


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## r4r&r (Feb 22, 2012)

Back in the day I moonlighted every chance I got. I had to. As a grunt laborer the pay wasn't just outstanding so any additional money was welcome. I didn't let it interfere with my "job". 
My attitude at the time, and still is, my job "rented" me they didn't own me. As long as I am doing what they are paying me for I can work 5 jobs at a time. If they were working at WalMart on their off time would it be an issue? 
As far as material coming up missing or them pilfering jobs off of your jobs that's a whole different story that usually ends with unemployment in my book.


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

Over the years I've done many many side jobs as an employee. For me to tell anyone they can't do it now would be 2 faced on my part. Go for it but not with my equipment. Employees get my cost for materials. Yup....anything the guys want. But that has to be for immediate family only. No friend of a friend of a friend who needs a kitchen.

I know it's hard but if you compensate your loyal guys more then fair at the expense of a few less dollars in your pocket then they won't need to do side work just to make ends meet at home.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

The employee is making good money using your equitment. That will come to a end when he has to man up and buy his own tools, Lic, and insurance.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I think there can be a lot of different problems from this type of thing. First, realize your employee is now a competitor of yours. He's being paid to do roofing jobs outside of your employ. Two different friends of mine had employees doing side jobs, and then they suddenly went out on their own and started their own businesses.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

hdavis said:


> I think there can be a lot of different problems from this type of thing. First, realize your employee is now a competitor of yours. He's being paid to do roofing jobs outside of your employ. Two different friends of mine had employees doing side jobs, and then they suddenly went out on their own and started their own businesses.


That happens alot around here. The wages are so low that, many guys will go on thier own to make more. It also happens when the wife has a good job, then she takes care of the bills, while he pretends to play contractor.


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## AJAX (Sep 12, 2009)

Family only, other than that your outta here! Because they will get the taste of the money side and your business will suffer from the moonlighting.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

No they can't use your tools and equipment they use their own for their work. Your tools should go home in your truck at the end of the day. Or do they hold your tools and stuff:blink: If they are storing you stuff well heck then why not use it:clap:


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## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

Ive done a few side jobs here and there. I always tell my boss. If its a small job and i need a tool he is usually ok if i dont own it. Bigger stuff i "rent" off him. I do not talk to his customers nor do i want to. Just stuff for family and friends. Little extra made on a saturday goes along way


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I wouldn't want to tell anyone that they can't do work on the side. As long as they know that their primary job comes first.

They need to use their own tools and supplies unless you agree otherwise.

They need to be on your jobs during normal planned working hours.

Other than that, I wouldn't get in their way.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Moonlighting has always, and will always occur. I don't discourage it as long as it is in the open and doesn't interfere with regular work. I would never tolerate anyone moonlighting for one of my customers without my consent though.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Just another echo.....

You can't tell them not to do anything on their time off, but it's good to know they have the ambition. 

The equipment is another matter though. If they get hurt on a side job using your equipment I'd be worried about liability.

Good Luck
Dave


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Since we are in the same line of work, I understand where you're coming from. If you think like me, they should be so tired from working for you during the week, that they shouldn't have the energy to do it on the weekend. However, they still do and really, it doesn't bother me.

As I tell them, I don't care about your doing side jobs but a few things I do care about are this: I don't want you talking to your side job customer while you are on my clock and I don't want it to affect your work ethic for me. If either things happen, I will have to let you go.

Don't let them use your tools or if you do, CHARGE them. I have let guys use my tools but I charge them so they start to realize that everything costs money and those quick easy money side jobs aren't as easy money wise as they thought.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

ad nauseam, ad nauseam...you can't STOP someone from doing what they want to do in THEIR private/spare time. Nor should you, imo.

You CAN control if they do it with YOUR equipment/materials/etc. And you do have a say if their performance suffers. But it's not really our business (legally) _why _someone's performance may suffer (insert :laughing: viagra commercial).


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

I'm only paying for 40 hrs, the rest they own. But if they moonlight...
Never with a company customer
Never with any of my eqpt or trucks. I need to stay as far away from their sidework as possible.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

fire them and set them off on their way to successful entrepreneurship:thumbup:


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Sure, the employee is free to do whatever they want on their own time. But, this is sorta personal. It's one thing to moon-light as a cab driver, or doing pizza delivery. But by doing side jobs, you have taken a job off the books for your team.

What I will do is, give a fair break to the customer, give a decent spiff to the employee, and hope the client spreads the word about us. If you are ready to do side work on your own, then I question your loyalty, as this whole work/business relationship thing is personal for all of us. 

Let's try to make this thing a win-win relationship for all parties.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Years ago I had a lead carpenter working for me. Good guy too. It seems that the customer we were doing a commercial job for asked him if he would do his bsmt. for him on the side.

He took the job. Our tools, our company vehicle. When I found out, he was gone. Told him to get his personal stuff from the truck and give me the keys.

He didn't get it until about 5 years later when he had a couple of guys under him.

If he had come to me about it, I probably would have told him sure, go for it. But he did it behind our backs.

What if the company had needed the work to keep the other guys working? Completely selfish. He ruined it for himself.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

I would NOT lend them your tools, what they do on the weekend is their business...not a problem,.:thumbsup: But I think your sending them the wrong message by allowing this to begin with ....


You are in business to make money, expand your client base, develop relationships......etc...etc...etc..........

I think you would be better off working with your employees on creating some job stability for themselves and in turn expanding your client base...you may think what I am saying is a little cold, but your basically giving the fox the combination to the chicken coop every time you lend your tools out, in escense, your enticing them to continue this....using your tools, taking possible customers away from you...you could be on a job and when your not around, the customer comes out and asks about a roof, windws, or siding.....whatever....so your employee may take it upon himself to intercept and decide to tell the customer he does this on the side for a lot less....
Then one day, he asks to barrow the tools again, you say yes, he takes YOUR tools and does a job for a client that YOU originally acquired......Think about it.....
I would look into encouraging them to help your business , give a family and friends break, maybe pay them a little extra for the contracted lead they gave you.....

What I think your doing is shooting yourself in the foot....And you want to keep the pistol in the same direction while your employee has his hand on the trigger.....

JMO....


B,


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## SFcontractor (Mar 8, 2012)

You might want to explain to your moonlighting employees that their side jobs can nullify their workman's comp claims. I had a finish carpenter on my job that filed a claim after a back injury. He had previously told me that he was working side jobs during most weekends. The insurance company investigated his claim and heard about his side work (not from me). Since I was a project engineer on the project they tried to get me to verify that he was doing side work and basically told me they were going to nullify his claim. I am not sure what the final outcome was, but it was definitely an unnecessary hassle to deal with.


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## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

when I get a call from a customer, and realize that I dont want the job, on occasion, I will give the job to one of my guys, as a perk.

They make an extra buck, I avoid a job that I dont want, and the employee gets a taste of what goes into selling, ordering, completing, and getting paid on a job.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I think SF brought up a good point about comp. If we, as the prime employer have anything to do with the guy doing side work, whether that be a referral, tool loan, whatever, we may be at risk if the guy has a bad accident.

I don't want to be connected in any way. Safer that way.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Pearce Services said:


> when I get a call from a customer, and realize that I dont want the job, on occasion, I will give the job to one of my guys, as a perk.
> 
> They make an extra buck, I avoid a job that I dont want, and the employee gets a taste of what goes into selling, ordering, completing, and getting paid on a job.


and could put you in the middle of a lawsuit


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## Doc Holliday (Jan 2, 2012)

Strange replies on this thread. One of my boss' lends me tools and gives me material that I can use on any job I have for whichever company needs the work. He recently let me borrow a generator so I can make money with a different company, installing hvac systems in unoccupied homes that had them stolen. Heck, I think all of my bosses would lend me anything I needed to get a job done if I needed it, no matter if there was any money in it for them or not.

We're all one big happy family. Maybe it's because we're from Texas, God's Country. :thumbup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

are these the guys you were crying about 2 weeks ago?:blink:


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## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

Tom Struble said:


> and could put you in the middle of a lawsuit


Good point! We do commercial doors, when a commercial customer asks me to do a residential door for their own house, I will offer them access to one of my guys to do the work as a side job, if they would like. 

With RRP and all the other risks, maybe this isn't such a good idea. I do tell them that it is completely between them. I have had to go do warranty for jobs not done right, after the employee moves on.

It is just so easy to get out of doing work I don't want, but I should think more about the risks.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

r4r&r said:


> Back in the day I moonlighted every chance I got. I had to. As a grunt laborer the pay wasn't just outstanding so any additional money was welcome. I didn't let it interfere with my "job".
> My attitude at the time, and still is, my job "rented" me they didn't own me. As long as I am doing what they are paying me for I can work 5 jobs at a time. If they were working at WalMart on their off time would it be an issue?
> As far as material coming up missing or them pilfering jobs off of your jobs that's a whole different story that usually ends with unemployment in my book.


That's a great post! I think almost all of the self employed members here felt the same way at one point in their careers as an employee. Our first projects where provided to me by my boss at the time as moon light projects. I always had the intentions of going out on my own and shared those intentions with my employer up front. Like the other posters have said, moonlighting is acceptable so long as there clear and defined lines drawn. I think those lines should include:

1. Company equipment can only be used with permission, each time it is used. Company equipment includes items typically stocked in employee's truck such as drills, saws, and safety equipment.

2. Company materials, including but not limited too fasteners, tapes, compounds, setting materials, building materials, and left over or stock items shall not be used in an employee's attempt to complete side endeavors. 

3. Side jobs do not interfere with normal works hours and or any previously scheduled overtime. This includes holidays and weekends if employer provides proper notice.

4. Side jobs are not sold and or pursued while employee is working on a company project. Example: neighbor comes by to see if someone can give them an estimate.

5. Working overtime trying to complete side job and normal work orders do not fatigue employee to the point it effects normal productivity. 

6. Employee does not plan, field phone calls, shop for materials, or spend excessive amounts of time discussing side job while working company paid hours. 

7. New found income does not effect employee's motivation to complete tasks in a normal fashion. 

8. Employee in no manner sells/portrays himself as an officer and or representative of the company while attempting to gain side work. 

9. Employee attains proper insurances and applicable coverages and or waivers necessary to legally complete side work as to not jepordize companies policies. It is understood that company has no liability for work completed by employee on a side or moonlight basis.

Ofcourse those could be modified on a case by case basis, as employer felt appropriate.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)




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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Well, the guy in my post was working at the lumber yard when I met him. He asked me for a job. I apprenticed him. That took 4 years and cost me around 5 grand. Then he became a lead carpenter/foreman. We provided him a company truck, gas paid, a good salary, etc.

Then he does that behind my back. How's that for loyalty?

Now I'll look after me, they can look after themselves.

Good guys are sooooooo hard to find.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

katoman said:


> Well, the guy in my post was working at the lumber yard when I met him. He asked me for a job. I apprenticed him. That took 4 years and cost me around 5 grand. Then he became a lead carpenter/foreman. We provided him a company truck, gas paid, a good salary, etc.
> 
> Then he does that behind my back. How's that for loyalty?
> 
> ...


Ouch, I try to offer my guys as much side work as they can handle to keep everything simple and provide them the extra income they desire in house so to speak. We are fortunate enough to be able to turn down quite a bit of small handyman type projects which I often times offer to my guys who do appreciate it before referring them to other contractors I know. It is how my mentor did it for me and how it has worked for our company so far.


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## WilsonRMDL (Sep 4, 2007)

If your worried about your guys becoming competition, they're either going to eventually unless you can pay them enough, or they'll fail and not really be a competitor anyway. A lot of guys that think running a business is so easy quit when they get a big side job then find out the hard way that it's not easy keeping busy


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

WilsonRMDL said:


> If your worried about your guys becoming competition, they're either going to eventually unless you can pay them enough, or they'll fail and not really be a competitor anyway. A lot of guys that think running a business is so easy quit when they get a big side job then find out the hard way that it's not easy keeping busy


I don't think the issue is as much a fear of employees becoming competition as it is employees becoming less productive or even worse counter productive to the direction you have established for your company.


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## jasong (Dec 3, 2011)

I only have a few rules about this. 
For employees - no side work generated on my job from h.o. , friends of, neighbours, etc. As long as they are honest with me about work, I will be honest with them about how each job will or will not work. Tools will be available for them to use if they throw in a few bucks for repairs on those used, when needed. I will not let any business owned equipment be used under any condition that could be a serious safety issue. Ignore any of these and you no longer work for me. 

For subs- If you give out another contractors info for work that I do, on my job, you will not work for me again. This has not happened to me , but I want it to be clear that it won't. Only once have I had an issue with an employee, so I make it clear right from the first day.


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## Alska101 (Dec 31, 2008)

Well this just came up with me. One of my employees came over asked to borrow a 23 ga. Nail gun as he was doing some trim at his house. I said sure. I don't mind. Two days ago i find out he used it to do a job, one my company had on the list. He used my tools to screw me out of a job. He no longer works for me and good luck finding another job with a contractor in the area. We all have breakfast together once a week.. He is now on the black ball list. 

I also tell them if they start moonlighting I will get less jobs and then then have less work and will need less employees. They can do the math.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> That's a great post! I think almost all of the self employed members here felt the same way at one point in their careers as an employee. Our first projects where provided to me by my boss at the time as moon light projects. I always had the intentions of going out on my own and shared those intentions with my employer up front. Like the other posters have said, moonlighting is acceptable so long as there clear and defined lines drawn. I think those lines should include:
> 
> 1. Company equipment can only be used with permission, each time it is used. Company equipment includes items typically stocked in employee's truck such as drills, saws, and safety equipment.
> 
> ...


I thought this guy posted a rather complete list.. :whistling:


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

The employee should use the don't tell don't ask thing:blink:


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## r4r&r (Feb 22, 2012)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> The employee should use the don't tell don't ask thing:blink:


Well I didn't really advertise side jobs but I didn't hide them either. The weird part was most of them came from my companies flooring supplier (and no this didn't take jobs from my employer cuz they only worked on their managed properties.) It paid really well when he called cuz I was the last resort guy or the call started with "well we already had one guy go out and... "


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## kyia (Jul 4, 2011)

Here is the deal with it imo. Now true this does not apply for the ones who took over the family business, or the ones who everything just happedn to fall into place for. But for the rest didnt you start out doing side work? You cant tell me that just quit your job and started your own thing without having a little customer base first. Yea sure one day they will become competition in a way. But look at it like this. If he or shes goes out on their own and makes it then you now have a guy that you know you can trust to give stuff to that you dont want or stuff you need to sub out because of to much work. Why can you trust them? Because you trained them not only on the trade side but on the business side so you know that their work is good and they will not sure the costumer over.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Something that keeps coming up in this thread is the idea of your employees going out on their own and whether letting them moonlight is encouraging it.

Your employees are entitled to do whatever they like in their free time so you can't stop them from moonlighting without a No Compete agreement(good luck with that). I'd rather have an employee leave me to start on their own with a feeling of gratitude and respect for me than have them bitter about how I treated them. In fact, if you actively participate in their moonlighting by giving them good advice then you have an opportunity to encourage them to pick a related, but non-competing, specialty.

Another thought is that by allowing them to see how damn hard your job really is you might actually encourage them to stay employees. Go over the numbers after the job and help them see what they actually made after all the costs were totaled up. You might also look at that employee as someone who is ready for more responsibility and let them try to bring in and lead some jobs for a commission or, even better, a share of the profit.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Great point EthanB:thumbsup:


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## Probity Drywall (Mar 2, 2012)

Good point. I think it depends on the guy.


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

One thing I will never understand is when employers think they own employees. IMO, the harder you try to restrain and rule your employees the harder they are going to push back. If you get yourself a good employee and treat them fair, you don't need a bunch of rules to keep them "in place". 

I will work harder for someone who respects me as a person and doesn't treat me as an object or look down on me.

I work for someone right now who lets me 'Moonlight' to the point of me taking off a week or so every few months. We worked this out when they hired me and it makes me work all that much harder for them. It also keeps everything out in the open so scheduling can be worked out to both our advantages. This may not work for everyone, but it works for us.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

TBFGhost said:


> One thing I will never understand is when employers think they own employees. IMO, the harder you try to restrain and rule your employees the harder they are going to push back. If you get yourself a good employee and treat them fair, you don't need a bunch of rules to keep them "in place".
> 
> I will work harder for someone who respects me as a person and doesn't treat me as an object or look down on me.
> 
> I work for someone right now who lets me 'Moonlight' to the point of me taking off a week or so every few months. We worked this out when they hired me and it makes me work all that much harder for them. It also keeps everything out in the open so scheduling can be worked out to both our advantages. This may not work for everyone, but it works for us.


The employee does have an obligation to his/her employer. While the employee is not owned in any manner they do need to live up to their end of the bargain. Our jobs are complex and require both mental and physical awareness. It is the responsibility of the employee to behave after work in a manner that does not affect his ability to preform to the best of his ability the following day. Since each individual is different this mentality dictates on a case by case basis. Since the employee is not owned they are free to decide what they want to do with the 16 or so hours they are not working. If the employee can physically and mentally handle another job without creating job site interference then great. If not then its an issue. It drives me bonkers when people/employees get this entitlement attitude and think they own their job. The employee employer relationship is a symbiotic one. I put countless hours and resources into providing consistent amounts of work and the best possible work environment for my guys. It would only make sense that they respect what I do for them by not letting outside interefences hinder what we are all trying to build together.

I can also see how employees could view this topic for sure. 

At ghost: I am glad that arrangement works for you. I know that if one of our guys came to me and said sorry about that job you scheduled because I scheduled one of my own I would clear his schedule, indefinitely.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

TBFGhost said:


> One thing I will never understand is when employers think they own employees. IMO, the harder you try to restrain and rule your employees the harder they are going to push back. If you get yourself a good employee and treat them fair, you don't need a bunch of rules to keep them "in place".
> 
> I will work harder for someone who respects me as a person and doesn't treat me as an object or look down on me.
> 
> I work for someone right now who lets me 'Moonlight' to the point of me taking off a week or so every few months. We worked this out when they hired me and it makes me work all that much harder for them. It also keeps everything out in the open so scheduling can be worked out to both our advantages. This may not work for everyone, but it works for us.


I've been totally on my own for 12 years now. Before that, I worked nights & weekends for myself & my employer for 40 hours. Just became to much & finally, I had to break & do my own thing.
Today, I sub to several guys I've worked for in the past. Had great relations when I worked for them & still have great relations as a sub.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

kyia said:


> ... But for the rest didnt you start out doing side work? You cant tell me that just quit your job and started your own thing without having a little customer base first....


I will admit that I did one side job once, and had a dirty feeling about it, and decided it was not a good thing.

Personally, I am against moonlighting. There is nothing I can say that would sway anybodies opinion. If I can't provide enough work for my guys so that they need to moonlight, well, then I can understand. But, if I have plenty of work, and they still moon-light, then I take offense.

If you moonlight, at least be honest with me. I may not like it, but, at least I will respect you.... There is no reason hiring, or employing someone that I don't respect.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

flashheatingand said:


> I will admit that I did one side job once, and had a dirty feeling about it, and decided it was not a good thing.
> 
> Personally, I am against moonlighting. There is nothing I can say that would sway anybodies opinion. If I can't provide enough work for my guys so that they need to moonlight, well, then I can understand. But, if I have plenty of work, and they still moon-light, then I take offense.
> 
> If you moonlight, at least be honest with me. I may not like it, but, at least I will respect you.... There is no reason hiring, or employing someone that I don't respect.


Well I've done things on the weekend I've felt Dirty about, there was wood involved:whistling and a lot of banging:whistling:laughing:
But my gosh I have to report to somebody on what I do on my time with my tools and my buddy in an effort to feed my family:blink: And you guys hate unions so much:blink: sounds like union crap to me!
The bottom line is if you paid a guy good he'd rather be doing something fun on the weekend! Fishing, surfing,hunting anything but working.


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## mnjconstruction (Oct 5, 2008)

I always let my guys moonlight. As long as it doesnt affect there job mon to friday for me. Also as long as it is not one of my prior clients or even a potential. They always checked with me first. 

I also use to throw them side jobs. One of my guys was with me for a very long time. Once in awhile id throw him a little half or full day job on sat and let him keep all the coin. The last one I did was a small entry way deck. just a 4x6 with 4 steps. My guy went out and made a cool 350 bucks for himself that weekend. He was happy, client got a wicked deal, and I didnt have to deal with it.

I would never tell a man he cant go out and make a few extra bucks on the weekends. I did it all the time when I was an empoyee!! Im pretty sure we all did.


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## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

Im no expert but a few hours on the weekend and a few extra $$$ dosnt mean the person wants to branch off on his own.

Edit: i moonlight as well. If its a bigger job i tell the customer to call my boss. I get a few extra dollers and they get another job and everyones happy


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> At ghost: I am glad that arrangement works for you. I know that if one of our guys came to me and said sorry about that job you scheduled because I scheduled one of my own I would clear his schedule, indefinitely.



There is WAY too many employers looking at their employees like the employee is trying to screw them or is just a tool to get what they want, and there are way too many employees looking at the employers the same way. I have seen both sides of the fence.

You said it exactly, the relationship is symbiotic, if you both work together, so much more can be accomplished. 

When I go to do a job, I go the office, meet with the owner and the production manager, say I want to do a job in 6 to 8 weeks and ask do you see any dates that I should avoid taking off? Typically the answer is no, esp now b/c I work as a support carpenter more then a project manager. After we discuss and decide that x,y and z weeks are open, those are the weeks I then use to figure out when I want to do the job. It is THAT simple. If you respect your guys and they respect you, work with them not against them, my loyalty to him only becomes stronger every time I see that he sees me for more then just some object and that I have hopes and dreams I am working towards.


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

Carpenter eyes said:


> Im no expert but a few hours on the weekend and a few extra $$$ dosnt mean the person wants to branch off on his own.
> 
> Edit: i moonlight as well. If its a bigger job i tell the customer to call my boss. I get a few extra dollers and they get another job and everyones happy




Exactly. I got approached for an addition the other day...guess who I forwarded them on to? :thumbsup:


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Well, yes, I started with no customers. I was a site super and when the project finished, I was unemployed so went it on my own.

My experience with employees (and I've had lots of them) has been this-

The good ones who learn and grow leave and go out on their own.

The mediocre ones just consider it a paycheck and sooner or later they either leave for some reason or they get fired.

I thinks it's quite hard to find good guys who wish to remain employees.

That's my 2 cents.


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

katoman said:


> I thinks it's quite hard to find good guys who wish to remain employees.
> 
> That's my 2 cents.


:thumbsup: Because a good employee in this field are self-motivated, hard working, eager to learn and take pride in their work...all the same things that drive someone to go out on their own. Don't fault them for the very reason you hire them.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

katoman said:


> Well, yes, I started with no customers. I was a site super and when the project finished, I was unemployed so went it on my own.
> 
> My experience with employees (and I've had lots of them) has been this-
> 
> ...


I have to agree with Kato on this. Very few guys will stick around if they feel they can do better on thier own.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

TBFGhost said:


> :thumbsup: Because a good employee in this field are self-motivated, hard working, eager to learn and take pride in their work...all the same things that drive someone to go out on their own. Don't fault them for the very reason you hire them.


I don't fault them. Not at all. I'd do the same. It's just like you say, all those good qualities lead to them leaving .

And then I have to train someone new.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

One can offer a partnership to the good employees. Let them take on more of the responsibilities, and provide them with good incentive, then they are more likely to turn the work towards the company, instead of moonlighting.

As mentioned earlier, it's so much easier to work together..


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## Probity Drywall (Mar 2, 2012)

I agree flash heating. I think for any partnerships to have a chance at success it has to start with loyalty and trust.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

re: Kato's post, I too agree re: guys moving on. Have a painter friend who had a guy stay for 17 yrs, then sold his biz to the guy. 

I think if you can provide a guy stability and a consistent paycheck, you'll be more likely to keep the talented person. Offering a variable number of hrs/paycheck doesn't feel safe and guys would feel more in control if they're on their own


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

I like the control of where my path goes.


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

I thought goin on my own would mean I could work whenever I wanted, make more while working less, pretty much get to ride on the gravy train. Ha! I work twice as much as I did as an employee, it's pretty common to not be done till 8-9 at night. I thought i wouldn't have to worry about money anymore either- that's all I do Now  but I wouldn't trade the freedom for anything.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Yes , freedom is everything to me. :thumbsup:Some people like being shackeled, where I get depressed. Shackeled and rich or poor and free? I been in both places. I am currently trying to get rich and free to work togethter.:laughing:


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## jasong (Dec 3, 2011)

Growth and comfort seldom come in the same package .


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## KnottyWoodwork (May 23, 2010)

To those that are worried, or don't like their guys going out on their own... just give them more hours. Pushing 50 hours a week isn't uncommon, and when I'm done for the day, working more is the last thing I'd think of.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Ninjaframer said:


> I thought goin on my own would mean I could work whenever I wanted, make more while working less, pretty much get to ride on the gravy train. Ha! I work twice as much as I did as an employee, it's pretty common to not be done till 8-9 at night. I thought i wouldn't have to worry about money anymore either- that's all I do Now  but I wouldn't trade the freedom for anything.


I thought going out on my own would mean I would finally not have to answer to a boss. Now I have a different boss every day/week and none of them understand anything about how construction works. Sometimes I think it would be easier to have one boss that did understand.


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## WilsonRMDL (Sep 4, 2007)

All the guys I worked for in the past before goig out on my own either still call me when they need another guy, or I hire them to help on my jobs. I'm back at a previous employer now after leaving to run my own gig, just needed a break from chasing work for a while.

As long as guys are honest about side jobs I think it's fine. Try and tell a guy he can't do side work when things are slow and I bet he won't be around for long


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## RhodesHardwood (Jun 28, 2010)

I would be ok with them doing what they want on their time, but I would not let them use any tools or associate my business name with the job in any way. I have never used a temp agency, but I have not heard much good from others who have. That is not to say that their aren't some good guys out there. You just have to weed through them.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

Ninjaframer said:


> I thought goin on my own would mean I could work whenever I wanted, make more while working less, pretty much get to ride on the gravy train. Ha! I work twice as much as I did as an employee, it's pretty common to not be done till 8-9 at night. I thought i wouldn't have to worry about money anymore either- that's all I do Now  but I wouldn't trade the freedom for anything.


I got that wake up call after my first few months too.

It is nice though that I can go to the doctors appointments with my wife, any day of the week. And if I have something to do not work related I can just go do it.

But then it seems I have to make up my time on Suday. :laughing:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Yep,

You get to choose which part of the day you get to work your 16 hours. :w00t:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

ah freedom...:laughing: give me a break:laughing:


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## bigdifficultme (Feb 28, 2006)

I have been doing side jobs for some time now. I do them on my time with my fuel,phone,tools,contracts,ins,truck and so on. Week days from 6:30-4:30 Iam a employee after hours its my time to do as I see fit, tired or not. 
Do I think being a principal is easy??? No, not at all. I know its a lot of hard work. Most of the time I get my check every week and Iam greatfull. Thats why I give 100% as a employee. But deep down inside of me I want more. More than I can be offered as a employee, by any principal. Is it money or freedom? I dont really know. 
What I do know is there is no better feeling than bidding a job, getting it, and making it happen!!! The best part is Iam being paid to do it. Even when I F-up and have to work in the red my customer gets what they paid for and it gets done right!!!! 
That feeling of satisfaction is not something I can not be provided with as a employee. The reputation I have acquired can not be provided as a employee. That is why I do side jobs.
Right now Iam getting ready to go out on my own. I have a good customer base and think I can pull it off. You know what? It scares the chit out of me.... 
The funny thing is I take a % of my profits and invest them into new tools. But some how my new tools end up on my bosses jobs. I dont believe in burning bridges.


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## roofny (Mar 18, 2010)

I have run into this same issue. I say someone is crazy to hire someone without insurance first off. If it is a family member they are helping out I encourage it. But otherwise, I work hard to make sure there is work every week for my guys, in turn they better be at my job M-F. Not leaving early Friday because they need to get materials to their side gig. Weekends there is always work also if someone wants the hours. They better not use ANY of my tools or materials and make it known there is no association with my company while on their side gig. The last thing I worry about is getting hurt on a side gig and it becoming my problem.


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

i use it to see the ambition and respect of my employees.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

roofny said:


> I have run into this same issue. I say someone is crazy to hire someone without insurance first off. If it is a family member they are helping out I encourage it. But otherwise, I work hard to make sure there is work every week for my guys, in turn they better be at my job M-F. Not leaving early Friday because they need to get materials to their side gig. Weekends there is always work also if someone wants the hours. They better not use ANY of my tools or materials and make it known there is no association with my company while on their side gig. The last thing I worry about is getting hurt on a side gig and it becoming my problem.


I don't think It's the hours they want but the money is what they want:blink:


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Disagree completely DWB.. We are a team. I go out of my way to keep you busy and challanged. I don't sweat every minute you aren't productive. You are more than an employee, you are a part of the company. If you want a 9-5 company, fine apply at Albertsons, but for many of us small outfits, we invest in you, and to see you blossom into a side-job Charlie, that hurts. 

As stated earlier, if you can bring in work, we will reward all parties involved, and grow together..cumbuyya


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

iv'e heard that song and dance before:laughing:


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

Tom Struble said:


> iv'e heard that song and dance before:laughing:


:thumbsup:


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

I have partners, and we have employees. Two different animals, but the line seems to blur for some. Employees can be (and many times are) cut from the fold when times get tough. Partners are in, good times or otherwise.

While I can easily appreciate a good loyal employee, I don't own him or his off the job time. If he were to poach clients from me that would be different. But I can't rationalize the thinking that they shouldn't have any ambitions of their own. 

Ambitious people are good for my business and make good employees.

Good Luck
Dave


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Hey fellas, just bringing in my point of view, as I know this is a grey area. Some employers think of their employees simply as expenses and their main concern is the bottom line. Some employees think of their work as a j.o.b.. and, I get that also.

Also, I certainly get that what you do on your own free time is your business. That is why I started my own gig (high Flash). However, moonlighting within the same field of work tests my belief of off time / my time. If you are free to do side jobs (within the same field of work), then I should be free to call you in for work only when I need your services.

Let's face it there is a lot more supply of ___ contractors and ____ tradesman than demand. As stated by some earlier, things work a lot more smoothly when we work together.


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