# My first Sharkbite repair



## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I just left a service call and had my first Sharkbite repair. According to the owner it was installed about 6 years ago. It was dripping.

I shut the water off and pulled the elbow off with an extraction tool. Inside I found a ripped/tore O-ring. It wasn't the actual fault of the Sharkbite but rather a Burr in the copper that ruined it when it was originally installed. It held up until now.....


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Well, I guess that's kinda good news for those who don't trust the technology,...including myself :thumbup:


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

superseal said:


> Well, I guess that's kinda good news for those who don't trust the technology,...including myself :thumbup:


Good news?

A full time service plumber finds one leak in 6 years, and it is due to improper installation. Yeah, the Sharkbites are a total failure.:laughing:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

superseal said:


> Well, I guess that's kinda good news for those who don't trust the technology,...including myself :thumbup:


Good news that it instills trust?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

For the repair I used Pro Press....love my Pro Press tools.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Warren said:


> Good news?
> 
> A full time service plumber finds one leak in 6 years, and it is due to improper installation. Yeah, the Sharkbites are a total failure.:laughing:


I guess that would be more impressive if we had more stats on how many sharkbite installs there are compared to traditional copper in his service area. If this is the only installation that would be 100% failure.

With that said, I haven't seen any real evidence that the majority of failures aren't all due to installation errors. I would trust them with a competent plumber at the helm.


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

That's why anytime I've used them, I cleaned up the pipe ends with Emory cloth, no Burrs.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Good news that it instills trust?


Why of course,...history is the best teacher.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

While I do stock Sharkbite in 1/2" - 1" I seldom use them. I prefer Pro Press.

I see a fair amount of Sharkbite fittings, the water treatment people seem to be the largest users of them. On Iron Curtains, where water is REALLY bad I have seen no failures. At continuing education classes where sometimes hundreds of us meet each year there's no indication from ANYBODY that they fail. All of them love them. Myself, I have my reservations.

I have about $5,000 in Pro Press tools and I'll grab that system with zero hesitation. It's an amazing tool and system. I first started using Pro Press on Government hospitals as well as private hospitals where we had semi-trailers drop off the fittings. 30+ guys with Pro Press tools. It's simply an awesome system.

I'm currently plumbing a little tiny house, full gut, built in the 20's. He requested PEX using home runs. It's also a great system. I'll post photos in the morning of it. I have an A.M. inspection tomorrow.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I heard that about Pro Press. Glad to hear some real world feedback. A while back all you heard was that they were junk. I was holding off on judgement until I heard real world data.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I heard that about Pro Press. Glad to hear some real world feedback. A while back all you heard was that they were junk. I was holding off on judgement until I heard real world data.


$1,370 for a 1/2" - "1-1/4" cordless is a killer set-up.

Changed out a water heater the other day in 38 minutes start to finish. The tool pays for itself in about 5 days.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> While I do stock Sharkbite in 1/2" - 1" I seldom use them. I prefer Pro Press.
> 
> I see a fair amount of Sharkbite fittings, the water treatment people seem to be the largest users of them. On Iron Curtains, where water is REALLY bad I have seen no failures. At continuing education classes where sometimes hundreds of us meet each year there's no indication from ANYBODY that they fail. All of them love them. Myself, I have my reservations.
> 
> ...


When I build our house , I am going to do the same thing from a manifold :thumbsup:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Jaws said:


> When I build our house , I am going to do the same thing from a manifold :thumbsup:


Be sure to use 1" feeds. Sioux Chief! If you can't get them I'll ship it to you. $25 each!


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Service plumbers don't drive around with truck beds that clean :laughing:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

superseal said:


> Service plumbers don't drive around with truck beds that clean :laughing:


Lol. I clean it every evening. But you're right, most don't.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> Lol. I clean it every evening. But you're right, most don't.


I can't stand a messy van. I clean mine through out the day, putting things back where they came from when I am done with it and everything that didn't gets cleaned out that evening....unless it's 5 degrees out and then it waits till Spring. :thumbsup:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I can't stand a messy van. I clean mine through out the day, putting things back where they came from when I am done with it and everything that didn't gets cleaned out that evening....unless it's 5 degrees out and then it waits till Spring. :thumbsup:


Customers are impressed by a clean truck/van. It says a lot about a craftsman who keeps a clean vehicle and speaks volumes about putting a customers mind at ease as to what to expect. 

Besides bad weather I intentionally leave my doors open for customers and neighbors to see inside. Much of our business is branding, and really, it's the "personal" brand that people buy into in our line of work. A clean truck is one of the components that helps build a brand.

Also, a messy truck is expensive. It's highly inefficient. I've told this story before on the forum but it's worth repeating again......

One day I pulled up to a job and the next door neighbor had his plumber pull in the exact same time. I watched in amazement as he opened the back doors and crawled on top of this mountan of parts to get what he needed. I grabbed my stuff, went in the house and looked at the problem. When I walked out to my truck to grab what I needed he was still laying on his heap of parts digging for God knows what? The owner of that company is losing money, that much is clear. And the home owner ends up paying for the inefficiency of his human capital (employee).

Lastly, it's a dam good feeling to be clean. It just feels good. It creates clarity in your head. It eliminates stress.

It's a massive competitive advantage.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> Customers are impressed by a clean truck/van. It says a lot about a craftsman who keeps a clean vehicle and speaks volumes about putting a customers mind at ease as to what to expect.
> 
> Besides bad weather I intentionally leave my doors open for customers and neighbors to see inside. Much of our business is branding, and really, it's the "personal" brand that people buy into in our line of work. A clean truck is one of the components that helps build a brand.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I love the compliments and agree 100% with everything you said. Feels darn good!

Funny though, when I feel my van is a mess, I'll have contractors walk passed and compliment how nice it looks and that they are invious of the organization.

I tell them you cannot afford to be messy. Why buy something you already have? Why throw something out that was once new but now ruined from laying at the bottom of the pile and lastly, at the end of the day everything has a place and if it ain't there I know that I need to find it.

It's the best way not to have to buy a tool that you already have just because you cannot find it.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

why don't you guys find a clean room somewhere?...


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## tccoggs (Dec 17, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> While I do stock Sharkbite in 1/2" - 1" I seldom use them. I prefer Pro Press.
> 
> I see a fair amount of Sharkbite fittings, the water treatment people seem to be the largest users of them. On Iron Curtains, where water is REALLY bad I have seen no failures. At continuing education classes where sometimes hundreds of us meet each year there's no indication from ANYBODY that they fail. All of them love them. Myself, I have my reservations.
> 
> ...



I don't see any fundamental difference between sharkbite and Propress other than the fact that you need to spend thousands on tools to make what is essentially the same joint that is sealed by a neoprene gasket. Both Sharkbit and propress are "repair" systems, if your building from scratch and plumbing with copper, stick with solder based joints. Why buy a premium material that will last 100 years and connect it with joints that will last 30. If you want to save money, put in pex knowing that it probably won't last as long as copper, but at least it was a fraction of the cost. I know this comes down alot to water chemistry, but in the northeast where I am, there are plenty of 100+ year old copper installs that are working and not leaking today. I don't think that will be true with propress systems 100 years from today.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

Where I am at in wnc copper lasts about 40 years then it is full of pin holes


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

tccoggs said:


> I don't see any fundamental difference between sharkbite and Propress other than the fact that you need to spend thousands on tools to make what is essentially the same joint that is sealed by a neoprene gasket. Both Sharkbit and propress are "repair" systems, if your building from scratch and plumbing with copper, stick with solder based joints. Why buy a premium material that will last 100 years and connect it with joints that will last 30. If you want to save money, put in pex knowing that it probably won't last as long as copper, but at least it was a fraction of the cost. I know this comes down alot to water chemistry, but in the northeast where I am, there are plenty of 100+ year old copper installs that are working and not leaking today. I don't think that will be true with propress systems 100 years from today.


You are completely wrong. Do you own a propress tool? How many thousands of fittings have you installed?

ProPress is a non removable crimp. Sharkbite is a fully removable fittings that works off of friction based on a close tolerance between the O-ring and the tubing.


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## rustyjames (Aug 28, 2008)

tccoggs said:


> I don't see any fundamental difference between sharkbite and Propress other than the fact that you need to spend thousands on tools to make what is essentially the same joint that is sealed by a neoprene gasket. Both Sharkbit and propress are "repair" systems, if your building from scratch and plumbing with copper, stick with solder based joints. Why buy a premium material that will last 100 years and connect it with joints that will last 30. If you want to save money, put in pex knowing that it probably won't last as long as copper, but at least it was a fraction of the cost. I know this comes down alot to water chemistry, but in the northeast where I am, there are plenty of 100+ year old copper installs that are working and not leaking today. I don't think that will be true with propress systems 100 years from today.


The company I was working for recently completed a 65 million dollar project for the gov using all Propress fittings.


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm no plumber, and i'm certainly no fan of shark bites.

But I do keep a few in my plumbing repair box as they do come in handy.

Mostly when doing remodel work as temporary fittings used just to cap off or keep a hose faucet going until a real plumber can do the job right.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Does plumbing need to last a 100 years? 

Does roofing last 100 years?
Flooring?
Siding?
Windows?

People remodel bathrooms after 5 years. At 30 years people are doing a full house gut out. And all the plumbing gets replaced.

Hospitals? We tare them down and build new ones. I've never been in a 100 year old hospital except for the Civil War museum ones that are empty....


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I been using speed fit type fittings for about 12 years now. When the rep first showed them to us in the plumbing supply they were boasting about the o rings 15 year life span. I have come across quite a few faulty ones. they plumb whole houses in with them in the UK. I ain't a fan but they have their place. I have tested them my self though upto 15bar that's about 220psi and no failure. 

But no they ain't designed to last the life of a new house. But they may last 1/5 the life of one.

I have put a few manablocs in since being over here. Have put hundreds of them in back in the UK but they were all cooper like Oco's ones.


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

Oconomowoc said:


> Does plumbing need to last a 100 years?
> 
> Does roofing last 100 years?
> Flooring?
> ...


Well, If inside a wall or under a floor YES they do need to last 100 yr.

You wouldn't splice 2 wires with tape and stuff inside a wall without a junction, would you?

The point is if you only need to repair a leaky fitting, That doesn't cost you much.

But if you need to repair a fitting that has quietly been dripping inside a wall for a few years before showing up, you're repairing a lot more than a defective sharkbite


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

SAW.co said:


> Well, If inside a wall or under a floor YES they do need to last 100 yr.
> 
> You wouldn't splice 2 wires with tape and stuff inside a wall without a junction, would you?
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about Sharkbite, I'm talking about Pro Press. 

Consumers don't want to pay for 100 year plumbing. We live in an era of replacement. Throw away society.

Plumbers don't make the decisions, these products are consumer driven. Plumbing a home for the same price as the 1980's has consequences, something has to give.

Simply ask the customer, would he like it to last 60 years or pay double for a 100.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

SAW.co said:


> Well, If inside a wall or under a floor YES they do need to last 100 yr.
> 
> You wouldn't splice 2 wires with tape and stuff inside a wall without a junction, would you?
> 
> ...


You think a wirenut is a 100 year connection?


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

Oconomowoc said:


> I'm not talking about Sharkbite, I'm talking about Pro Press.
> 
> Consumers don't want to pay for 100 year plumbing. We live in an era of replacement. Throw away society.
> 
> ...


I get it you have started a new thread, I'll play.

Pro Press hasn't been around for 60 years not even half that. And if you're using it with pex thats sweeet iv'e seen mice chew threw that crap just to get a drink of water.

I've had no experience with pro press for copper, but it hasn't had time to stand the test of time.

Copper is expensive but if a customer wants guaranteed trouble free piping I would recommend going with whats been proven to last.


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> You think a wirenut is a 100 year connection?


You wouldn't splice 2 wires with tape and stuff inside a wall without a junction, would you? 

Just a metaphor bro, nothing more.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

SAW.co said:


> I get it you have started a new thread, I'll play.
> 
> Pro Press hasn't been around for 60 years not even half that. And if you're using it with pex thats sweeet iv'e seen mice chew threw that crap just to get a drink of water.
> 
> ...


Who said anything about PEX with Pro Press?

How is a wire spliced with tape relevant to Pro Press?

You haven't used the tool, therefore you don't know anything about it. That's understandable. But again, as a licensed master plumber with a list of 1000's of customers I can assure you we don't make these decisions. If your customer can only afford a $50 patio door they get a $50 patio door.....not a $5000 patio door.

When a repair is made these houses are 60+ years old, so do they WANT it to last 160 years? 500 years? 1000 years? Who makes that decision you?

If you were my customer I would sweat the pipe for you, hell I'll even polish it and clear coat it. But you will pay me quit handsomely I can assured you. That is up to you. That is your choice, not mine.

When I get a call for a leak and the house is 100 years old and the water main doesn't fully shut off should I tell tell the home owner we have to call the city and do a full shut down, replace the valve on a lead service.......then we can fix the leak for $1,200? Or should I propress it and bill him for $180? Which would YOU pay for?

I carry everything on my truck, Copper sweat, PEX, CPVC, Pro Press and Sharkbite. I'll do what the homeowner asks me to do.

And if a guy wants me to TIG weld SS food grade piping I've also done that in milking parlors. It'll cost you $50k but I'll do it.

On the Pro Press debate. Government has done massive studies on this and they DEMAMD it. I'd trust engineers long before I'd trust some guy with a hunch. But hey, I'd love to drop $50k on your water pipe so let me know. I serve everybody regardless of financial abilities.


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

Your starting to jump around a lot but I guess what your trying to say is 

People get what they pay for.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

SAW.co said:


> You wouldn't splice 2 wires with tape and stuff inside a wall without a junction, would you?
> 
> Just a metaphor bro, nothing more.


No but an old soldered and taped connection would probably outlast a nut in a box.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

SAW.co said:


> Your starting to jump around a lot but I guess what your trying to say is
> 
> People get what they pay for.


Not really jumping around per say, plumbers in 2013 need to deal with all of it. We have consumers which are well aware of all the systems. Where we once dealt with one type we now have 5 system types! All need to be considered.

If I go on a service call and the house is pure CPVC do I install copper to repair it?

You are right in respect to getting what you.pay for but the trend is headed for cheaper "labor" AND "materials. 20 years ago it was just labor we were fighting.......

I could only dream of having ONE system, I would love the simplicity of that but those days are over. 

Adapt or die. I excel at adapting......


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> At 30 years people are doing a full house gut out. And all the plumbing gets replaced.


Maybe in your neck of the woods. The only time I've ever been able to talk anyone into wholesale replacement is when they have a long list of ongoing problems. Normally, the only thing that gets replaced is what's being re-worked to accommodate a remodel.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> Maybe in your neck of the woods. The only time I've ever been able to talk anyone into wholesale replacement is when they have a long list of ongoing problems. Normally, the only thing that gets replaced is what's being re-worked to accommodate a remodel.


It happens here all the time. 

Kitchens and bathrooms are constantly being remodeled here. And where is the plumbing? Kitchens and bathrooms.

People own homes here for a very short time it seems. And when new people buy it......out go the bathrooms and kitchens and all the plumbing gets replaced.

A 100 years is unnecessary and probably unrealistic. A guy down the street a ways is ripping off his siding and he found his windows are shot also. House is less than 15 years old maybe?????


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Good point, Mike. Actually, another reason for remodels at the 20/30 year point is that the kids have finally grown up (sort of) and moved out.

Still, I have yet to have a client go for the whole magilla.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

We renoed to bathrooms on a split level. Had the Asbestos around the pipes remediated and had to replace the steel with copper from the W/T and Softener. It was only a few thousand more to replace all the copper. All easy to get to from the crawl and the gutted basement bathroom.

Only time we have replaced everything all at once.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> We renoed to bathrooms on a split level. Had the Asbestos around the pipes...


...and you didn't call Mike Holmes?

:whistling


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> LoL that's like saying taking a bike to work is the fastest way if you don't have a car.


wait. no. it's gotta be your bull...... Butcher?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

FSCROB

I'll start a PEX thread and put some photos up on the Zurn PEX. This thread is getting trashed. :laughing:


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> LoL that's like saying taking a bike to work is the fastest way if you don't have a car.


Ha! Touché...


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

rrk said:


> 100 year old steel, brass or lead? It wasn't copper.
> 
> I have seen 80 year old brass that would almost fall apart at the connections. Most have been replaced well before then.


Both steel and brass, and I have seen plenty of copper systems that are over fifty years old, and we have lead water services here that were installed in the 1800's and are still in service.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Both steel and brass, and I have seen plenty of copper systems that are over fifty years old, and we have lead water services here that were installed in the 1800's and are still in service.


In ottawa we have some wood water mains still in use and one wood steam pipe....all leak like a sieve but still work.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

My plumber tries to replace all steel or brass if it is accessible to prevent future leaks. Have seen many catastrophic leaks from them right at the fittings. 

One was in a real old home above the library which was just refinished and the plaster crown was finished 1 week before. Water was pouring out of a snapped 1/2" pipe for 6-7 hours, they could not shutoff the steel main valve. Town could not locate outside valve box quickly.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

rrk said:


> My plumber tries to replace all steel or brass if it is accessible to prevent future leaks. Have seen many catastrophic leaks from them right at the fittings.
> 
> One was in a real old home above the library which was just refinished and the plaster crown was finished 1 week before. Water was pouring out of a snapped 1/2" pipe for 6-7 hours, they could not shutoff the steel main valve. Town could not locate outside valve box quickly.


The problem is not the steel nor the brass it's the age. There isn't a doubt in my mind that a cast pipe will outlive a PVC/ABS pipe.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> The problem is not the steel nor the brass it's the age. There isn't a doubt in my mind that a cast pipe will outlive a PVC/ABS pipe.


That is very dependent on the conditions, I would not use cast on a house with a septic field, the gas that is formed in the septic tank will rot the the top of the cast pipe out.

Most piping failures are because of water quality, many municipalities are delivering water that is not fit to drink to it's customers, Chicago has one of the finest water filtration plants in the country and basically delivers soft water to your tap.


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## HVAC1000 (Feb 4, 2013)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Most piping failures are because of water quality, many municipalities are delivering water that is not fit to drink to it's customers, Chicago has one of the finest water filtration plants in the country and basically delivers soft water to your tap.


Hey it's funny. I'm actually in Chicago right now visiting family this weekend. I'm staying at my grandmothers apartment on lakeshore drive and we are actually gonna watch the air show from the roof of the building this Saturday. But back to what I was saying. All the water in this city is very clean but why does it all taste terrible compared to the clear mountain spring water we have back home in Colorado. I mean it's like the water is half sulfur. It tastes terrible and smells horrid all over the city too not just in this building


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I fix crap so it lasts two days, that way I have moe work by the end of the week.


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## plummen (Jan 9, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> For the repair I used Pro Press....love my Pro Press tools.


I used to use the pro-press at the gym.I switched to the one chuck norris advertisers,Much better machine!:whistling:laughing:
Oh you mean the crimping tool for guys who cant sweat copper!:laughing:
I can sweat a lot of copper fittings for the price of that pro press machine and the fittings to go with it,Ive seen the pro press used on big commercial jobs in the past but wasnt really impressed with the way the finished product looked myself anyway.
Those shark bite fittings are right up there with greenfield/flex in my book,quick/unskilled/ugly!
Ill go back and hide in the bunker now!:laughing:


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## plummen (Jan 9, 2010)

SAW.co said:


> You wouldn't splice 2 wires with tape and stuff inside a wall without a junction, would you?
> 
> Just a metaphor bro, nothing more.


As long as it isnt screwed with theres no reason a wirenut shouldnt be able to stay in a box for 100 years connecting 2 pieces of wire.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

plummen said:


> As long as it isnt screwed with theres no reason a wirenut shouldnt be able to stay in a box for 100 years connecting 2 pieces of wire.


Sure there is, heat causing expansion and contractions, oxidation and the galvanic reaction between the steel spring and the copper conductors.


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## plummen (Jan 9, 2010)

I spent 32 years in the trades bending pipe and twisting wirenuts,I did more service work/repairs than I can ever possibly begin to count on residential/commercial/industrial and ag projects.
I dont remember ever seeing signs of electrolysis inside of properly installed wire nut used in a dry moisture free enviroment.
On a lot of the industrial jobs I worked on I would tape the wirenuts because Ive seen enough maintenance guys leave gaskets off of covers and Ive seen enough cleaning guys soak down motors with 1" high pressure hoses just to prove what idiots they are.
If you have a splice thats exposed to the weather and everything else theres no way to guarantee how its going to hold up,but thats an installation/maintenance issue not an issue with the wire nut itself.
And yes we still soldered our residential stuff and wrapped it with rubber tape and friction tape when I started out,and I still do solder lots of connections.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

plummen said:


> I spent 32 years in the trades bending pipe and twisting wirenuts,I did more service work/repairs than I can ever possibly begin to count on residential/commercial/industrial and ag projects.
> I dont remember ever seeing signs of electrolysis inside of properly installed wire nut used in a dry moisture free enviroment.
> On a lot of the industrial jobs I worked on I would tape the wirenuts because Ive seen enough maintenance guys leave gaskets off of covers and Ive seen enough cleaning guys soak down motors with 1" high pressure hoses just to prove what idiots they are.
> If you have a splice thats exposed to the weather and everything else theres no way to guarantee how its going to hold up,but thats an installation/maintenance issue not an issue with the wire nut itself.
> And yes we still soldered our residential stuff and wrapped it with rubber tape and friction tape when I started out,and I still do solder lots of connections.


I never said it wasn't a good connection, I just have my doubts about 100 years.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

plummen said:


> And yes we still soldered our residential stuff and wrapped it with rubber tape and friction tape when I started out*,and I still do solder lots of connections.*


PLUM..... May I ask why.... is there a specific/preferable application.???

( I had not seen a soldered system untill several years ago when my kids both bought 1949 and 1953 homes in Cali..... I'm from CO and generally have not done old reno's in my area)

TIA

Peter


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Stop and think about it for a minute. Do you really think only a simple mechanical connection provides a surer bond, and in the case of electrical connections, better contact over more surface area? See Inner's comment.

While I have no problem with "just" using wirenuts in my own house and others', if cost were no object and I wanted my connections to last a century, I'd solder them at the very least.

Veering back on topic, the same applies to pipe connections. For truly long-term, I trust soldered or brazed more than anything solely mechanical.


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## plummen (Jan 9, 2010)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> PLUM..... May I ask why.... is there a specific/preferable application.???
> 
> ( I had not seen a soldered system untill several years ago when my kids both bought 1949 and 1953 homes in Cali..... I'm from CO and generally have not done old reno's in my area)
> 
> ...


Sometimes if Im really bored and doing a whole house for habitat for humanity ill solder everything just to show whatever young guys they give me as helpers that there is more than one way to do stuff,especially late at night when you run out of wirenuts.:laughing:
Residential stuff doesnt generally get changed that much once the sheet rock goes up so youre generally pretty safe soldering stuff,I wouldnt bother doing it in a commercial or industrial setting since things get changed /taken apart a lot.
Theres still a lot of houses around this area that have old knob and tube wiring ,so you still see soldered joints around here in older houses .


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## plummen (Jan 9, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> Stop and think about it for a minute. Do you really think only a simple mechanical connection provides a surer bond, and in the case of electrical connections, better contact over more surface area? See Inner's comment.
> 
> While I have no problem with "just" using wirenuts in my own house and others', if cost were no object and I wanted my connections to last a century, I'd solder them at the very least.
> 
> Veering back on topic, the same applies to pipe connections. For truly long-term, I trust soldered or brazed more than anything solely mechanical.


Id say that a soldered joint is definately the ultimate way of connecting things,very little resistance there compared to a wire nut or a split bolt on bigger wires.
It mostly comes down to time and skill,most people are in a big hurry to get stuff done and get on to their next big thing of the day.
One big advantage of wire nuts is you can work live,Im pretty good but I have no desire to solder a live circuit!:laughing:


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## plummen (Jan 9, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> I never said it wasn't a good connection, I just have my doubts about 100 years.


Well if youre ever around to see a wire nut thats been in service 100 years ,do me a favor and leave a note about what you find on my headstone.
I dont plan on being around that long!:laughing:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> It's not that they are not business people, it's just they have no idea how a service business is run.


I have a different theory on that. I know a lot of carpenters and builders etc. They leave 10's of thousands on the table every year in just inefficiency. They are great guys, awesome in fact, but a business man is able to recognize these things. What I speak of is really simple business concepts that are easy to grasp. 

Unfortunately this industry is full of folks who can only see the small picture. 

Example. How many threads on here have been started on this topic?

Zero


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> I have a different theory on that. I know a lot of carpenters and builders etc. They leave 10's of thousands on the table every year in just inefficiency. They are great guys, awesome in fact, but a business man is able to recognize these things. What I speak of is really simple business concepts that are easy to grasp.
> 
> Unfortunately this industry is full of folks who can only see the small picture.
> 
> ...


On sharkbite fittings? I'd say about a million.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Oconomowoc said:


> Have some of you considered you might not have the intelligence to understand it? Have you considered you lack depth?


:clap::laughing:

Mike you up for a thread on efficiencies. That will most definitely be an enlightening and  lively discussion.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Texas Wax said:


> :clap::laughing:
> 
> Mike you up for a thread on efficiencies. That will most definitely be an enlightening and  lively discussion.


William. It falls on def ears. It always does. If I don't get flamed on theory I'll get flamed because it's long. It's mind blowing how, in the business section, so little content is actually discussed. 99% of it is newbie type discussions which is fine for a newbie but no really in depth discussions. Why is that? You'd think people would be interested in maximizing retirement, having more, growing wealth, working in what really is fun environment...... but no!!!!!! Off the top of my head I could list 5 topics that NEVER get discussed here yet in successful companies outside construction those 5 topics are the daily focus. 

Look, I've never really fit in here, I think that's beyond obvious. And I can't change peoples thinking either.....I'm starting to learn that. People would rather say childish things like "I'm calling BS" then discussion the real solutions and opportunities. I've always been open and willing to answer any questions people have and I do it with depth and passion. Most of the people who say things like "I'm calling BS" never really offer up in depth answers. They avoid it. The guy that is passionate? The guy who is willing to spend as much time as required to educate? Screw that guy right?

Its a joke.

In the marketing section as an example, how many threads have been started on "brand management? ZERO. It's absolutely insane how that isn't a topic. It's frickn mind blowing.

In the business section as an example. How many threads have been started on motion studies? ZERO. Again, it's amazing. Absolutely amazing. And somebody has the frickn balls to say they are calling BS on me!!!!! 

Lol, it's laughable.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> *Have some of you considered you might not have the intelligence to understand it? Have you considered you lack depth?*
> 
> You say you call B.S. but that's just one option. Why not try doing the math and think like a business man? Or is that too hard? To tough?
> 
> ...


Are you really Tony Robbins in disguise?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Hey, I once had a customer offer me $500 for counseling while on a job. He didn't want me to leave. He was retired for 6 years and didn't know what to do with his life. So I offered up a suggestion and we went out flying.

He called me Tony Robbins also. I call it being human.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

bet i could pony up at least that much to get you to leave..:shifty:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> Hey, I once had a customer offer me $500 for counseling while on a job. He didn't want me to leave. He was retired for 6 years and didn't know what to do with his life. So I offered up a suggestion and we went out flying.
> 
> He called me Tony Robbins also. I call it being human.


Dang you're good, I had one offer me sex but she wasn't offering to pay...


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> bet i could pony up at least that much to get you to leave..:shifty:


I'll leave for $500. Absolutely.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Oconomowoc said:


> William. It falls on def ears. It always does. If I don't get flamed on theory I'll get flamed because it's long. It's mind blowing how, in the business section, so little content is actually discussed. Off the top of my head I could list 5 topics that NEVER get discussed here yet in successful companies outside construction those 5 topics are the daily focus.
> 
> Look, I've never really fit in here, I think that's beyond obvious. And I can't change peoples thinking either.....
> 
> ...



:jester:Being your own boss, contractor or "GC" is easy and if you get paid it'll all just work out:jester: :clap: Right?

Motion studies - Like the difference between 2 men taking 3days to build 3 sets of stairs and one man doing the same three in 2 days for the same money. ROTFL Why could that even come close to being relevant to contracting, yet alone talking about it? :laughing:

Contractors are an curious breed no doubt. You're very fortunate to have the background and insight of the business side. Wise enough to apply that knowledge rather than banging your head on the brick wall of success waiting for it to tumble over. There is a reason the failure rate among 'contractors' is 2x the average of other businesses. 


Wish there was a way to get an ongoing discussion or two, business related, going. Without all the posturing and BS. There are many lurkers as I've been told. Who do not have the gumption, and reasonably so, to speak up on the forums. Mike there are probably many more people that get benefit from your posts than those who flame, imho. 

Back to the snakebite thread ......


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> Dang you're good, I had one offer me sex but she wasn't offering to pay...



Did you bang her?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Texas Wax said:


> :jester:Being your own boss, contractor or "GC" is easy and if you get paid it'll all just work out:jester: :clap: Right?
> 
> Motion studies - Like the difference between 2 men taking 3days to build 3 sets of stairs and one man doing the same three in 2 days for the same money. ROTFL Why could that even come close to being relevant to contracting, yet alone talking about it? :laughing:
> 
> ...


Snakebite???? 

Lol. Well played


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Oconomowoc said:


> I'll leave for $500. Absolutely.


you really didn't think it would be that easy..


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> you really didn't think it would be that easy..


It was worth a try Tom


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

you are a good bidness man!:clap:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Lol


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

Then lets see the math?

I'm not as dumb as you look bro!


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

So far all you have done is run your FAT MOUTH.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

SAW. 

Don't take it personally. I'm not.

As I indicated before you lack depth and understanding. That certainly does not make you dumb. It makes you uniformed.

You ask me to show you the math? To understand the math is to understand the concept and you have proven you do not understand it. You said "I'm calling B.S." right? Well, are you a man of conviction? If you want to call me out on BS did you call me out based on your own math? Your own research? I mean, let's find out how full of BS you are OK? Let's see your math to prove me wrong alright?

Truth is you typed that from anger not on math. You typed that based on ego, nothing less and nothing more. You saw a chance to stab a guy and you took it. You made those comments and it probably felt good. That is not the type of person I would explain this with. 

I have written posts on here that are extremely in depth. I always explain it in detail and always explain the math. Can you say the same? The guy with the big mouth is the guy who can't explain it but rather tramples a fella. Where are your in depth posts? Mine are easy to find. 

Now you can accuse me of being a big mouth, as you put it but at least I can always back it up. I always do. You can accuse me of a lot of things but most people here know I post very in depth discussions that are very detailed and I help anybody who is man enough to act like an adult.

The haters in life are an interesting breed all to themselves. It's tragic how an ego gets in front of progress. 

Regardless, you are a business owner correct? You have the opportunity as a business owner to make decisions. And just think, something as simple as looking at a situation through a different lens could potentially change your entire future. It could change your entire family including your grandkids. The beauty is, it costs nothing. Perspective is free. Ideas are free. It's called growth. Unfortunately, what you are doing here is killing growth. You can't understand it because you are I'm defensive mode. It's pure ego and ego ruins lives.

But hey, that's what makes life interesting. You are actually a BIG asset to me. Did you know that? You see, my competition thinks exactly like you do, they don't see it either. That's great news for me. If they understood what I do I'd be totally screwed. 

Well, that's about it. It's unfortunate we can't seem to get along. You probably work your azz off like most in this business and to that I give you credit. 

Good luck


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm not hating anyone, nor have you backed anything up.
I read your post, 4K in less than 2 years. We have all read your post, and the first time someone calls you out on it you accuse me of being less intelligent. Give me a break.

You stated that you were able to drop you're pricing by $20 per hour, because of a new truck, and I called you on that. I'm not to stupid to comprehend that. But it would seem you don't know how to explain it?


As for me if I could figure out how to take on another monthly payment and save money I would be making $20 per hour more.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

SAW.co said:


> I'm not hating anyone, nor have you backed anything up.
> I read your post, 4K in less than 2 years. We have all read your post, and the first time someone calls you out on it you accuse me of being less intelligent. Give me a break.
> 
> You stated that you were able to drop you're pricing by $20 per hour, because of a new truck, and I called you on that. I'm not to stupid to comprehend that. But it would seem you don't know how to explain it?
> ...


SAW, I'd be happy to explain it, just not to you. I've been challenged many many times and I always back it up. Again, your last sentence explains quite clearly you don't understand it. 

4,000 posts in 2 years? Probably. I post from a smart phone and often times talk to very intelligent folks on here. Smart phones are fast. They are efficient....... oops, there's that word again. Efficiency. Spend some time understanding that and you'll have your answer.

Unsubscribed


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

So because I have challenged you I am no longer worthy of your time. 
Pretty arrogant.

HMMMM sounds like rhetoric to me. 

A typical answer from someone who is all talk.

You know what they say. " Those who can do, and those who can't talk."


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

SAW.co said:


> So because I have challenged you I am no longer worthy of your time.
> Pretty arrogant.
> 
> HMMMM sounds like rhetoric to me.
> ...


No. For the record, there's 3 very specific reasons why I won't waste my time with you.

1.) You insulted me instead of simply asking me to explain it. 
2.) The time it would take to explain to you is just not worth it to me.

3.) The insults don't stop. What would be my motivation? To prove something to an angry boy?

Feel free to call me what you want though, keep insulting. At the very minimum it's entertaining.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> No. For the record, there's 3 very specific reasons why I won't waste my time with you.
> 
> 1.) You insulted me instead of simply asking me to explain it.
> 2.) The time it would take to explain to you is just not worth it to me.
> ...


Boy??? :blink:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I tell you what, I'll make a deal with you SAW. I'll explain it in full detail, including drawings. Hell, maybe even a video. But first you have to do three things.

1.) Explain in detail why it is you feel I'm wrong. Full detail. Prove your position and I'll prove mine.

2.) 10 people have to post they want an explanation from me, that way the odds of helping 2 people make it worth it. You know, the 80/20 rule.

3.) Make one more smart azz comment while I'm posting and I stop immediately.

I'm headed to bed. Your move.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

rex said:


> Did you bang her?


I took a pass, she was a single woman I'm her late 60's. Not exactly my style...but at the time I kept thinking "Well rex wouldn't say no"


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> SAW, I'd be happy to explain it, just not to you. I've been challenged many many times and I always back it up. Again, your last sentence explains quite clearly you don't understand it.
> 
> 4,000 posts in 2 years? Probably. I post from a smart phone and often times talk to very intelligent folks on here. Smart phones are fast. They are efficient....... oops, there's that word again. Efficiency. Spend some time understanding that and you'll have your answer.
> 
> Unsubscribed


Mike if your into backing things up stop yammering and post the damn propress vs sharkbite video!


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> I took a pass, she was a single woman I'm her late 60's. Not exactly my style...but at the time I kept thinking "Well rex wouldn't say no"



I'll try anything once.


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

1. I could not possibly buy a truck and a fancy tool raise my overhead and then cut my prices by $20 an hour.

2. I believe we are up to 3. and with threat of a video I'm sure more will be interested.

3. :whistling

And for the record you started with the insults I only called BS on you.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

If you increase your billable hours/piece production it would work. I did service work many years ago and it was not uncommon to bill 10 hrs in an 8 hr day and then add in billable travel time, then the rate was $65 now it must be at least double that.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Yoy gotta spend $$ to make $$$. Very simple concept.

I did that hauling trash. Bought a bigger beefier truck than my comp. It allowed less trips to landfill, faster turnaround on jobs. If you dont make an initial investment in equipment to increase production rates, you're screwed.

I bought a graco 390 sprayer. Did time studies on apartments. Same unit floorplan: brush & roll 50 hrs, graco took 24. 

I have many other examples. Plumbing scissors can be a plumbing example. 

Efficiency through quality. Whether that be materials or equipment. He can lower his prices, keep the same ratios of profitability because he spent money to make money.


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

Driftweed said:


> Yoy gotta spend $$ to make $$$. Very simple concept.
> 
> I did that hauling trash. Bought a bigger beefier truck than my comp. It allowed less trips to landfill, faster turnaround on jobs. If you dont make an initial investment in equipment to increase production rates, you're screwed.
> 
> ...


This I do understand. But wouldn't you do this to make more If you pass all the savings on to your customers you are just breaking even. That makes no sense. I buy tools and equipment to make the job more efficient and save ME money. If I can do this without raising cost I am happy. If I can raise profit thats better for me, not the client.

My clients are happy to pay for quality in craftsmanship and material. 
If they are looking for the cheapest game in town thats not me.
So maybe I don't book as many jobs, that cuts down on stress.
But I profit more from the jobs I book. I guess it all evens out. 

We all have our own formula for profit. And as long as you show profit how can you be wrong. 

When someone tells me they can raise overhead, cut cost by $20 hr. and still profit more I want to know how.

You have met the challenge that Oconomowoc has been avoiding for almost 2 days.:clap:


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## jarhead0531 (Mar 5, 2008)

If I'm reading this right I believe Oconomowoc is trying to basically say he was able to lower his billing rate, but still increase profits by lowering overhead, and increasing billing efficiency. 

Service work is tough, with an avg of 50% billable hours, if he is running in the 75% range area based on the improvements he has made I wouldn't be surprised. Whether it is using the pro press to speed up copper repairs (labor is almost always the most expensive thing), avoiding supply house runs due to aggressive inventory management, or just understanding what marketing is working for his area resulting in the phone ringing more.

This works for him because he is a one man show, I don't know if it could work with a larger shop. Success is success though, and I think everyone needs to understand that. Calling BS because you don't understand the metrics involved, or don't care to understand them just highlights why so many people have the a negative opinion of people in the trades.

Oh yeah, I want more of the transit setup Oconomowoc. You also mentioned in the other thread you were working with an electrician buddy to get him setup, let me know how that works out. As a sparky I am very interested.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Haha no prob. I just summed it up. As long as your meeting your profit margins of x% per job you can lower your price accordingly making you accesible to a wider audience. A smart "race to the bottom" if you will. 

Striving for efficiency to serve the largest audience possible should always be a goal.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

With a larger shop it is easier, your total labor costs per year became lower versus increased billable totals. Employees got paid less than owner, up to 6 crews could work under owner mgmt. After that a service manager was needed, needed to increase crews to 9 or more to pay for manager.

Downside is employee productivity, making sure billable hrs were high and callbacks were few

50% billable hrs in a day is low, would need very high hourly rate then.

Decreasing rate and increasing billable hours and bigger customer base works


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

I agree with Tom in that I don't understand how you can buy a new rig, use higher priced materials (Shark Bite and/or Pro Press), lower your rates, and still increase profits.

Most customers aren't looking for artisan work when it comes to plumbing and/or h.v.a.c. service. They simply want things fixed correctly, for the least amount of money. If you don't address the customers wants, you will find yourself out of work soon. I get where Mike is coming from. Those of us in the service field should strive to figure out how to save the customer money. I just don't see how his formula can work out.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I dont understand how he thinks he is some sort of business guru and that he tells everyone how good he is about doing it, yet he is still herding turds.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I dont understand how he thinks he is some sort of business guru and that he tells everyone how good he is about doing it, yet he is still herding turds.


First off, I never said I was a business guru. That's just your perspective which is really irrelevant to me. 

It doesn't matter what you do in life, it just matters how you do it. The "how" part is something I work on daily.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Ask yourself. How do you make money in this business? An I'm really directing that question for those in service, like the electricians and HVAC's. Where is the REAL opportunity for us? The big picture, where are the gaps in this industry?

Start from the phone call on Monday morning until the last trip on Friday evening. In that time span, where is that profit.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> First off, I never said I was a business guru. That's just your perspective which is really irrelevant to me.
> 
> It doesn't matter what you do in life, it just matters how you do it. The "how" part is something I work on daily.


No, its what you constanly blabber about here. Always have, always do, just search your posts.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

flashheatingand said:


> Can't you wire in some type of smart setup to pass time?


I already got so drunk I can barely walk and I'm still bored...


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Gary H said:


> Mike,
> Keep posting . You bring in alot of insight that is rarely seen or wrote about in the forums. That's one reason I stick around. There is nothing like hearing from the man in the trenches.:thumbsup:


I'm a lot like a bottle of Snapple. You may not like me but dammit.......your gonna learn something.


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