# I DIDN'T GET A DOWN PAYMENT. I think I am screwed.



## Bsecdone (Aug 22, 2005)

Brickie said:


> You were given plenty of sound advice yet you chose to ignore it & dig yourself further in the hole


I don't see how I am any further in the hole?! If the job isn't done and I had no payment schedule....... That is my fault.

So at this point I am out my own labor and materials that where already at a job. So either I install them or someone else installs them. I figured It should be me. So atleast on paper. If I do go to court, the job is done. how can I be at fault for that?
My contract stated that I would do the work, and I did just that.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Bsecdone said:


> I don't see how I am any further in the hole?! If the job isn't done and I had no payment schedule....... That is my fault.
> 
> So at this point I am out my own labor and materials that where already at a job. So either I install them or someone else installs them. I figured It should be me. So atleast on paper. If I do go to court, the job is done. how can I be at fault for that?
> My contract stated that I would do the work, and I did just that.


You still don't get it??? Go back & read posts #28, 32, 33 & 40


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## Hammatime (Sep 14, 2006)

If you are going to take this to court you did the right thing by finishing the job. The courts always look down on the contractor when the job is not complete. You have to be careful if you have payment terms in your contract and the HO stops paying, you think that you can stop working. But unless it says in your contract that you will do that you are taking a chance on never getting that money. Most of the time the HO will back down, but if you get a guy that is sue happy his lawyer could argue that you also breached the contract by stopping work. That is why you need to put everything that you can think of in your contracts. The odds are against the contractor in court that is why we have to CYA.


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## marc (Mar 18, 2005)

Quite honestly.........................You deserve to get screwed over. 
Why did you bother to ask for advise?
Do yourself a favor and get a job.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Geez, did I read this right? This is over $1000.00?

Just contact him and get something.... *anything* finalized, like you want $1000, he wants to pay you $12.50. Get the $12.50, send him an invoice for the rest with 10 days to pay, wait 11 days and then go file in small claims and be done with it. He probably won't even show and then you just have to go about collecting on your default judgement. You don't need lawyers or any other gobbly ****, this is what small claims court was set up for.
:blink: :blink: :blink: 

Lordy, lordy, baby needs a 40!


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

> Marc
> Quite honestly.........................You deserve to get screwed over.
> Why did you bother to ask for advise?
> Do yourself a favor and get a job.





Brickie said:


> You still don't get it??? Go back & read posts #28, 32, 33 & 40


 
I disagree I think Bsecdone did the right thing by finishing. It's a hard lesson to learn, but not finishing his side of the contract would most likely keep him from winning in court and give him a bad reputation.

I read the above posts (#28, 32,33 , 40 and the rest) and some said to walk and others advised to complete the job then sue. So why are you guys dumping on this guy. I think he did the ethical thing and the legal system will look on that kindly. He had nothing in his contract about downpayments or other payments so if he did not finish the HO would show in court that Bsecdone had not finished the job and did not deserve payment.

Now he has completed his side of the signed contract and the Home Owner is the louse that has refused to uphold his side of the contract.

This is a hard lesson. Hopefully others will learn. Always get a downpayment before starting and depending on the size of the job get payments throughout the job so that you are not owed more than 30% at the time of completion. I almost always get 50% down before I start. Now PA is going to make that illegal and only allow 30% downpayment. Check what the maximum amount is in your area and get that amount.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Geez, did I read this right? This is over $1000.00?
> 
> Just contact him and get something.... *anything* finalized, like you want $1000, he wants to pay you $12.50. Get the $12.50, send him an invoice for the rest with 10 days to pay, wait 11 days and then go file in small claims and be done with it. He probably won't even show and then you just have to go about collecting on your default judgement. You don't need lawyers or any other gobbly ****, this is what small claims court was set up for.
> :blink: :blink: :blink:
> ...


What he said


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

Brickie said:


> What he said


That's fine, but he could not have done what Mike Finley said if he had taken the advice of "stop working on it and cut your losses". Now that he finished his obligations he can go to court and actually win.:thumbsup:


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

First the guy is playing you BIG TIME. Second DO NOT accept a check from him which says payment in FULL. You should have already filed in small claims court which would have cost you under 100 dollars. This guy has done this before in my oppion.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

R&S Exteriors said:


> That's fine, but he could not have done what Mike Finley said if he had taken the advice of "stop working on it and cut your losses". Now that he finished his obligations he can go to court and actually win.:thumbsup:



Given what the the OP posted, he should NOT have finished the job but followed Robert's advice:


_Quote:
DEMAND FOR PAYMENT
Date:___________________________________

To:_____________________________________



Dear ______________________________:

Please be advised that your account with ____________________________________________ remains seriously overdue in the amount of ____________________________________________ DOLLARS ($____________), despite our numerous efforts to resolve the matter of your past due account.
This letter shall serve as your final notice before pursuing further legal means for collection of your overdue account. Unless we receive payment in the amount of ____________________________________________ DOLLARS ($____________) within ________________ (_____) days of the date of this notice, we shall be forced to immediately turn your account over for collection.
In order to avoid the additional costs of added interest, collection fees, and/or court costs, and to help preserve your credit rating, we suggest that you resolve this matter by immediate, full payment. 
Sincerely,

____________________________________



********************
Dear so-and-so
Need $xyz to continue project at this time
misunderstandings created by lack of clarity in agreement
require $2500 payment
payment schedule as follows for further work 
blah, blah, blah_


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

Brickie said:


> Given what the the OP posted, he should NOT have finished the job but followed Robert's advice:
> 
> 
> _Quote:_
> ...


How can you demand a payment that is not in the original contract? Yes he made a mistake by not getting a down payment and not putting the payment terms in the contract, but it is a signed contract and he can not just change it or demand payment unless the customer agrees. He did the only thing he could do and still get paid. He finished the job and now if the lowlife does not pay he can file in court and win.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

R&S Exteriors said:


> How can you demand a payment that is not in the original contract? Yes he made a mistake by not getting a down payment and not putting the payment terms in the contract, but it is a signed contract and he can not just change it or demand payment unless the customer agrees. He did the only thing he could do and still get paid. He finished the job and now if the lowlife does not pay he can file in court and win.



No, he didn't do the only thing he could to get paid. Many states allow a lien to be filed after materials supplied:


*Lien Filing and Service After Labor or Material Supplied*

_On commercial projects and utilities, all contractors must file a Sworn Statement of Notice of Intention to Hold a Mechanic’s Lien with the county recorder’s office where the real estate is located within 90 days of the last date labor *or materials were provided*. However, if the construction project is a Class 2 structure (single or double family dwellings) then the mechanic’s lien must be filed in the county recorder’s office where the real estate is located within 60 days after the last labor *or materials were provided *to the project._

http://www.nacm.org/bcmag/bcarchives/2002/may/columns7.html


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

Brickie said:


> No, he didn't do the only thing he could to get paid. Many states allow a lien to be filed after materials supplied:
> 
> 
> *Lien Filing and Service After Labor or Material Supplied*
> ...


I'm sure that is true, if it was in the contract what payments had to be made. In this case it was not in the contract and I doubt he could have filed a lien and if had it would probably have been worthless since there was no requirement in the contract to pay anything up front


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## MontyPCF (Oct 2, 2006)

R&S Exteriors said:


> I disagree I think Bsecdone did the right thing by finishing. It's a hard lesson to learn, but not finishing his side of the contract would most likely keep him from winning in court and give him a bad reputation.


Eh, I think it was a pretty bad move on his part. Contractors have a legal right to stop work if they are not payed as scheduled. I don't know how its done in other states, but in California, for all its flaws, it enshrines a constitutional right to stop work, file a lien and demand payment for work due in the Business Ethics Professional Code. 

His biggest problem was a lack of a clear and legal contract that can be enforced in a court of law. First both you and the client can easily understand what the terms are, and secondly, you always have a recourse to a court of law. In California, if you don't have a clear contract with all its terms clearly spelled out, you can't make your business grow or you get fined by the Contractor's Licence Board into bankruptcy. 

In 2006, California became the most contractor unfriendly state with the 1000 or less down payment. 

Oh and if you guys haven't heard of it yet, make sure to put a binding arbitration clause in your contract. Makes things easier.


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

MontyPCF said:


> *Eh, I think it was a pretty bad move on his part. Contractors have a legal right to stop work if they are not payed as scheduled.* I don't know how its done in other states, but in California, for all its flaws, it enshrines a constitutional right to stop work, file a lien and demand payment for work due in the Business Ethics Professional Code.


Eh, read his post he did not have in the contract that there was to be a down payment or any payments until the work was completed. YES he knows now that was the wrong thing to do BUT he did do the right thing by finishing or he would never have collected anything and the HO would have been able to get a judgement against him for breach of contract.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

R&S Exteriors said:


> Eh, read his post he did not have in the contract that there was to be a down payment or any payments until the work was completed. YES he knows now that was the wrong thing to do BUT he did do the right thing by finishing or he would never have collected anything and the HO would have been able to get a judgement against him for breach of contract.


No, he did NOT do the right thing by finishing. He delivered materials to the job. He should have given the HO an invoice for the materials. Once he's paid for the materials, he should have completed the job. If the guy doesn't pay for the materials, he should slap him with a lien.


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## Bsecdone (Aug 22, 2005)

I sent the customer a intent to file a lien. the customer calls and says that even though it passed the state inspection. Other electricans are say the work is work and the customer states that they will be sueing me for lost revenue and he needs me to come to his office next week to sign papers.........ok.


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## pitterpat (Sep 25, 2005)

Bsecdone said:


> I sent the customer a intent to file a lien. the customer calls and says that even though it passed the state inspection. Other electricans are say the work is work and the customer states that they will be sueing me for lost revenue and he needs me to come to his office next week to sign papers.........ok.



Sign what papers????


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## pitterpat (Sep 25, 2005)

Bsecdone said:


> I sent the customer a intent to file a lien. the customer calls and says that even though it passed the state inspection. Other electricans are say the work is work and the customer states that they will be sueing me for lost revenue and he needs me to come to his office next week to sign papers.........ok.



Sign what papers????


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## Bsecdone (Aug 22, 2005)

Exactly, this guy has been playing me from the start. What a turd


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## widco (Jan 16, 2004)

---


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## Bsecdone (Aug 22, 2005)

Yes, i have learned alot from this. After talkin to a lawyer. I just don't get why this guy keeps saying he is going to sue for lost revenue. he has no basis and no documentaion.

I did the work and should be paid...... Am I right?


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> so i understand. which is ridiculous. glad im not in CA.
> 
> btw. --- can you ask for that down, and then follow it up with another installment (loop hole??)


What we do, is get 10% down, and an additional down for however much we want "at time of material order".


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

Bsecdone said:


> Yes, i have learned alot from this. After talkin to a lawyer. I just don't get why this guy keeps saying he is going to sue for lost revenue. he has no basis and no documentaion.
> 
> I did the work and should be paid...... Am I right?


I just barely got through these 4 pages, what kind of work were you doing for a renter who was going to be moving out in 2 wks anyway??? I'm just curious. I wonder if the guy just ran out of money??? 

What does this guy do for a living? My father-in-law got screwed when doing work for his neighbor who happened to be a lawyer. OMG it was such a mess, went on for years, this was more like $40,000 though, and he didn't win. It was very complicated- he was taking over on a remodel (that another neighbor had started- if you can believe it- that was done poorly and had to be corrected). Anyway, he wasn't getting change orders signed, just verbally okay'd, and he let it all go until the end. :no:


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## tkle (Apr 15, 2006)

Bsecdone said:


> Yes, i have learned alot from this. After talkin to a lawyer. I just don't get why this guy keeps saying he is going to sue for lost revenue. he has no basis and no documentaion.
> 
> I did the work and should be paid...... Am I right?


Was there a penalty/bonus clause in the contract giving him compensation for lost revenue?
As a professional contractor,I don't inspect the work of others.I think it's unethical and besides you should of hired me in the first place.
When a home owner says they could do it themselves ,but...I usually don't turn in a bid.
Small claims court.Everybody threatens getting a lawer but I've found after long negotiations just the mention of small claims court has worked.Why didn't I do that to start with?


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## Bsecdone (Aug 22, 2005)

tkle said:


> Was there a penalty/bonus clause in the contract giving him compensation for lost revenue?


 No nothing like that.
As a professional contractor,I don't inspect the work of others.I think it's unethical and besides you should of hired me in the first place.
When a home owner says they could do it themselves ,but...I usually don't turn in a bid.


tkle said:


> Small claims court.Everybody threatens getting a lawer but I've found after long negotiations just the mention of small claims court has worked.Why didn't I do that to start with?


That will be next


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## Bsecdone (Aug 22, 2005)

Aaaaaarrrrrrgggghhhhhh, this is so frustrating. This guy is calling my sub (who is my friend too) and saying he is going to sue him too. My lawyers says who cares he doesnt have a case. But being this is my first lien, court threat etc. It really can get to ya. Anyone else every feel like this?


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Bsecdone said:


> Aaaaaarrrrrrgggghhhhhh, this is so frustrating. This guy is calling my sub (who is my friend too) and saying he is going to sue him too. My lawyers says who cares he doesnt have a case. But being this is my first lien, court threat etc. It really can get to ya. Anyone else every feel like this?


no winners in court ...


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> no winners in court ...


Yes there is.......lawyers.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Gordo said:


> Yes there is.......lawyers.


haha, touche


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## Bsecdone (Aug 22, 2005)

I feel great now. I guess it is just the wanting game now. To see if the customer pays or if I have to file the lien.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

I've had the exact same thing happen to me several times over the years. Either the guy doens't have the money and never did, or he just doesn't want to pay. He figures he can intimidate you into backing off and writing off the money, or into taking a big discount.
I had this happen to me 20 years ago. I had a long time commercial customer (always paid well), who hired me to do a $15,000 retaining wall at his personal house. When the job was done he gave me $11,000 and refused to pay the rest. At the time, small claims limits were $1000, so it would have been civil court, which would have eaten up much more than that in legals, so I left it.
Today, small claims in Ontario is $10,000, so I always make sure that residential clients never owe me more than that.

As an aside, my brother recently went into partnership with this same guy to build 56 townhouses. He did not want to hear about my problem with the fellow, so I let it go. Hope it works out for him.


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## Bsecdone (Aug 22, 2005)

Thanks for the info. I even had a older friend he has been doing this for 22 years, give him a call just to try and act like a mediator. The customer asked for his address and said he was suing him too.
Bullies in the work place........


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## Bsecdone (Aug 22, 2005)

Update: Filed a lien on the Property about 1 month ago today, through a lawyer. During that time, the customer has tried more "scare tactics" and told the lawyer, that the lawyer was going to get sued too.....
So, now I am debating:

1. Should I file in small claims court? What is that like? What is the process?
2. Use olddebts.com? Anyone use this service before?
thanks for all the help. it has been great.

BTW- I searched the public record files here in town and this guy has more lawsuits/judgements (mostly with contractors) than you could shake a stick at.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Bsecdone said:


> Update: Filed a lien on the Property about 1 month ago today, through a lawyer. During that time, the customer has tried more "scare tactics" and told the lawyer, that the lawyer was going to get sued too.....
> So, now I am debating:
> 
> 1. Should I file in small claims court? What is that like? What is the process?
> ...



What did your lawyer say???


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## Bsecdone (Aug 22, 2005)

of course my lawyer says sue him.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*Liens*

*Liens* 
Mechanics Lien laws vary state to state. It is very simply and free to first notify the party of an intent to lien. The typical fees from a lien placement service range from about $ 95.00 to $ 250.00. In Illinois, the cost to place the lien on your own is the $ 1.00 for a notary fee and the $ 35.00 to record the lien at the county recorders office.

To be able to win a lien claim, either the party will just surrender and pay to remove the cloud on the title to his property or it will go to court. To enforce a lien, a contract must have been undertaken and agreed to by both parties. A written contract is better, especially if it is well defined as to the responsibilities of both parties, but an oral or verbal contract may also hold up. Obviously, there is much more room for error on the interpretation of an oral agreement, each claiming the other party said or meant this or that.

Simplicity does not mean it can be done correctly.

In Illinois, the 2 types of liens that apply to us on this forum are an original or general contractors lien and the second type is a subcontractors lien. Original has legal definitions, but non-legal speak basically means you are the direct contractor working for the homeowner. The Original Lien status applies in this scenario..

To "Perfect" a lien, means to do it properly in a prescribed time-frame. A "Perfected" lien carries additional precedential clout on others who may have a claim to the property, such as a mortgage holder and other claimants not perfected. In Illinois, 90 days to file the lien claim, and it must be Notarized!!! This one dollar task if not done carries great disastrous legal implications. Additionally, a sworn statement, notorized, must also list all material suppliers and subcontractors.

Conversely, a lien that is not "perfected" still carries a high degree of clout, and you have up to 2 years in Illinois to file this lien as an original contractor. You do not receive the precedence in receivorship in this type of lien. Most people in general do not know the difference between the two.

The savvy building owner who wants to defeat your lien claim, can file a demand to proceed with the legal actions. In Illinois' case, that means that the liening party must file suit and commence legal procedures to follow up on the lien claim. If this follow up legal action is not initiated within this 30 day time frame, then the building owner can file to have the lien removed and no attachment is incurred on his property. 

Usually, the threat of a lien will get people to move towards an aggreeable solution. In this case, I feel that this property owner is used to working his way around the law. So be prepared to follow through with legal action. This information is appropriate for another poster who did not get a definitive signed contract prior to starting their work.

Ed


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## ButlerDesigns (Nov 27, 2006)

File a lien, then you will definately get paid. Don't let the customer throw you around. He knows what he is doing. Trying to get a free job after you completed most. Have a lawer type up a letter for you that has a stamp on it. This will really get the owners attention like you mean business. This always 100% has helped me in every case. If you type up your own thing he will think you are cheap and wouldnt spend money on lawer. I would pay about 50-100 bucks and have a demand letter typed up. My 2 cents...Any everyone looks at contractors as scum because of few bad apples, but never call theirselves this because of their few bad apples...sad..Go get them :clap:


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## Bsecdone (Aug 22, 2005)

thx. I'm going to file for the law suit Monday. I learned a valuble lesson here.	thx for all the help. everyone.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

By the sounds of it, he's just trying to ntimidate you by threatening everybody and evrything. There is a basic principle in Western law: you do the owrk, you are entitled to get paid unless it is proved that your work is substabdard or against code.

We had a guy 7 years ago: a famous but retired NFL football player, living here in a big house in toronto (canadian wife).
Gave us a deposit, made us wait for other trades for 3 months, then gave me 3 days to finish. 3 trips (an hour each way) to pick up the cheque, each time only to be given a list of deficiencies. None of which were my concern: the result of other contractors.
Finally, I put a lien on the property. Turned out the siding, roofing and painting guys did as well. We got together and leined the house eventually forcing the sale. My original balance was $7000, but I got more like $9000 with interest and costs.
Had another one last year: just an incredibly arrogant 25 year old. Same thing. Tried to intimidate me and my men and my lawyer. When I hand delivered the notice of sale he was flabergasted. His wife left him when she found out he wasn't paying any of the contractors doing the renos on their house. Got my money there as well.
Over 28 years and 12,000 customers, I've been to court about 20 or so times. I've NEVER lost. I was sued 3-4 times as well. didn't lose them either!


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