# Builder made a radical change in our roof design



## Guest (Jan 11, 2005)

Our contract with the builder states that the house will be built using the customer supplied plans (we supplied the plans). It also states that any change to the plan would have to be in writing and signed by both parties. We never approved the radical roof design change. 

You can see pictues of the house at the link below that I feel shows our home was not constructed in a workmanlike manner. Any comment would be appreciated.

www.microfilmplus.com/house.html


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Litigation? I have no comments.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

bwalter said:


> Any comment would be appreciated.


Nice house. Great garage. Good luck.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I would be sooo embarassed if I ever built anything like that. My Daddy would come out of the grave and get me!
I have never seen anything like that chute thing. Collect stuff? Duh!


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Whoa! I just went back and looked again after seeing Teetor's comment. I missed the pictures of that crazy roof basin on my first go 'round - that's absolutely wild. I think the builder got the idea for the look from the jet intake cowl of a stealth fighter.
What is there to say? Looks like the builder found himself holding a tiger by the tail and was afraid to let go.

Grumpy has got to see this roof! :cheesygri


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Must be one of those professional third generation framers that did that.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Maybe one of Glass's 'soup kitchen' guys.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

That is a great design if you lived on a tropical island where you needed to collect your rain water!


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Great point Mike! Also good for hardcore organic gardeners and survivalist types. A selling point in the making if I ever saw one. You can almost hear the saleperson " Do you enjoy gardening or have concerns about NUCULAR or biologic devestation?- no worries. This home has it's own high volume freshwater collection system."


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Even this should be a court case PRO SE, and you couldn't lose to F. Lee Bailey. :cheesygri


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Come on Pond, you can do better than that! I was thinking you'd recommend that they try and get some upgraded carpet comp't to them or something? Maybe get the builder to kick in an ice maker or convection oven. Maybe even go for a whole house Bose sound system or something. I mean, the roof is functional and all right? Structurally sound? It doesn't look bad. What are they gonna' do, tear off the roof and re-build it? Let's be realistic about this. :cheesygri


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## Doofus Emeritus (Dec 18, 2004)

Mr. Walter,

Things like this never cease to amaze me. Whats with your local building dept., doesn't the inspector know how to read plans? Looks like the low slope was designed to drain over the hip onto the lower valley. Thats what I would call a typical hog valley type of construction, but yours isn't typical...

Good luck.

Best regards


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

Does look like the workmanship was on the poor side. I am not an expert on reading plans but it looks like the original plan calls for an opening right obove the entry where 4 sides of the roof drain right into the opening? This is where it looks like the builder had inclosed the area laiid rubber and added a scupper. Poor design i Agree. But i would tend to think the origional design was flawed also. Maybee i am reading the plan wrong?


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Pipe,

Don't you know, you can never be realistic when a republican framer changes your roof design.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Uncalled for, pond. The guy might have been union.


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Did Tim Frame this roof???


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm ignoring this. Push too many buttons and ........


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## TimWieneke (Nov 1, 2004)

Teetor - I'm with you. Dad hasn't passed on yet, but if I framed a roof like this, he would - then come back and whup the tar out of me for attaching our family name to that roof. It looks like an Epcot Center toilet gone wrong....

I don't know what kind of snow Ohio gets, but their asking for trouble with that thing.

Tim

P.S. Teetor - yeah, I guess the sound of one's own voice is very enchanting to some....


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Back when I was a kid in the islands we had cisterns under the house which provided our water. Maybe that is what the guy was shooting for, whoops, takes a tank somewhere.
Thinking back on it we were pretty tough back then. The cistern was fed by the roof and gutters and the birds pooped on both. Lizards must have met their death on their way down the crude piping.
In one way this makes my skin kinda crawl but if I ever had the opportunity to do it over I'd be there in a heartbeat.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Did you also notice that the extended rafters and 2x4 fascia changed the shingle overhang at eaves, and if a 1x6 is added, yowsa!


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Best of Luck. If that roof wasn't torn off and reframed before you moved in, I have nothing to add. I would sue the hell out of this contractor. You have damages from what I have seen. He had no idea what he was doing.


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

OMG, as I have stated preciously, I'm no roofer by any means. The person/people that actually put hammer to nail and thought they were building something good when they put your house together are in serious need of drug rehabilitation. Don't get me started about the ineptitude of the home inspector in your area...

All the best of luck to you in court - it should be a no-brainer court case!!!


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

I'm curious............

Why did construction proceed after roof was framed in. Before final framing draw everything should have stopped 100%.

No mechanical rough, electrical rough, or plumbing rough, should have proceeded. Was this not noticeable from the ground? 

Why did the bank go ahead with draw funding and how were you able to close on home?


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## Doofus Emeritus (Dec 18, 2004)

pondman said:


> I'm curious............
> 
> Why did construction proceed after roof was framed in. Before final framing draw everything should have stopped 100%.
> 
> ...



Mr. Pondman,

Obviously, the inspector cannot figure out why they put rungs on ladders.


Best regards


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

This ranks up there, right in the top 1%. UNREAL.........


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2005)

*Thanks for the question pondman*



pondman said:


> I'm curious............
> 
> Why did construction proceed after roof was framed in. Before final framing draw everything should have stopped 100%.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your question Pondman,

www.microfilmplus.com/house.html 

When we confronted the builder about how the roof was taking shape, he told us “not to worry he will take care of it”. Well, when we came back a few days later to look at the house, the roofer was putting on a rubber membrane. I called the builder and asked him to meet my wife and me at the construction site. He showed up with his wife and they both had a bad attitude to my wife’s question as to what they were going to do about the hole in the roof. We had these plans for 15 years or so but could not afford to build the house. We would never have changed the plans to include a basin in the roof. 

A few days later the builder’s wife (office manager) called us and asked for another draw. My wife told her that they will get another draw when they fix the roof and bring the house up-to-date. 

The builder came by and picked up his sign and told all the subs not to come back or do any work for us. He slapped a lien on our property. I was lucky that I didn’t pay him completely. I have about $40,000 of what could be called his money. That will depend on how this plays out in litigation.

I found my own subs and finished the house myself. It took 13 months from the start but we did get it done. 

It is getting close to bring this nightmare to an end. I have a structural engineer coming out on January 18, to evaluate everything. My lawyer told me that I need to prove damages. I hope to show that the house in its present condition is worth less then if it had been built according to plan. 

I never in my wildest dream thought that I would own a house with a roof like that. I had a dream last night that I was up on the roof and roofers were changing the roof. The thing is, the roofing looked like shingles but when you touched them it was a big tarp with shingles painted on it.

Have fun, life is a one tripper….


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

bwalter said:


> I had a dream last night that I was up on the roof and roofers were changing the roof. The thing is, the roofing looked like shingles but when you touched them it was a big tarp with shingles painted on it.


That might not be a dream. There is such a thing. It's called Cooley Illusions http://www.cooleygroup.com/webcont.nsf/0/bldindex


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

hOME INSPECTORS ARE NO THERE TO MAKE SURE YOU RFOLLOW THE PLANS. WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU ALL TALKING ABOUT? THE INSPECTORS ARE THERE TO MAKE SURE THE PLACE ISNT GOING TO FALL DOWN. SHEESH.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

The only reason why a inspector from the building department goes to a job site is to make sure that the work is UP TO CODE. He isn't there to make sure it isn't a flawed design, so long as that design is up to code.

The sistered rafters at the overhangs that extended the overhangs a few inches here and there... are they up to code? Probably. Were they good building practice? I don't think so... but that is not the building inspector's responsibility.


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## TimWieneke (Nov 1, 2004)

That's not always true Aaron. In many towns (I think Lockport is one of them) the plans are approved by the village for construction and the village building code will have a provision that explains how and what types of changes to the plans may be made and what the steps are for approving those changes.

If an inspector goes out to the job with a set of drawings from which to make an inspection and what is built does not match the drawings, he can make the case that the project that is built is not an approved project.

This varies greatly village to village.

Tim


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

i noticed the plan or builder is flipped or mirrored - I flipped plan and found it matches house. I noted the areas that have changed. Did you expect to have an opening above your entryway? 

http://minnesotaroofing.com/roof drawing.jpg

Am i right with my notation?


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

minnesotaroofin said:


> i noticed the plan or builder is flipped or mirrored - I flipped plan and found it matches house. I noted the areas that have changed. Did you expect to have an opening above your entryway?
> 
> http://minnesotaroofing.com/roof drawing.jpg
> 
> Am i right with my notation?


You are right .. there should have been a court yard not a basin. 

Did you look at the picture from the inside of the house. Is it common pratice for there to be 2x4's spanning across the roof trusses? Look at the last picture on the first page. http://www.microfilmplus.com/house.html

Thanks,

Ben


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

*I viewed that site*



Grumpy said:


> That might not be a dream. There is such a thing. It's called Cooley Illusions http://www.cooleygroup.com/webcont.nsf/0/bldindex



That is unreal. That's an exact match to my nightmare. I will have to save that site.

Thanks,

Ben


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

*Inspector??*



Grumpy said:


> The only reason why a inspector from the building department goes to a job site is to make sure that the work is UP TO CODE. He isn't there to make sure it isn't a flawed design, so long as that design is up to code.
> 
> The sistered rafters at the overhangs that extended the overhangs a few inches here and there... are they up to code? Probably. Were they good building practice? I don't think so... but that is not the building inspector's responsibility.


If the above is true why do you have to submit a set of plans which then has to have the building department's stamp put on? How can the builder make such a radical change to the roof without getting an "architect" to draw up the changes. ... Then the changes should have been presented to the building department for them to approve the changes and add their stamp.

How can a buildiing inspector make a structural decision just by a walk by without looking a the revised plan (there were none)?? 

As for the scabbed rafters ... if you look close you can see how much of the shingles ended up being cut behind the fascia board. A 2x4 fascia board at that (it called for a 2x6). 

The builder even took it on his own to change the floor joists from 2x12's to 2x10's. Why would the plans call for 2x12's if they weren't needed? When you contract reads that the builder will build the structure using the home owners plans, he should do just that! 

In our area you can't build a barn without a set of drawings. !! 

Thanks for your post,

Ben


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Man Walter, I feel for you. I've seen a lot of 'soup kitchen' work but that just about takes the cake.

Didn't anyone ever tell this guy there are ways to protect a sub floor? It looks like he just checked his watch and thought 'beer thirty', then walked off.

My brother in law does work better than that, and he's a crack baby.

Sorry about your luck, and to bad you didn't have me there. I would have stuck my foot right the hell up his jack leg a$$.

Bob


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Bwalter, I'm curious. Was the builder the 'low bidder'? If not, what selection process did you use to hire him?


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

That crossed my mind also Pipe.

Bob


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

You know what they say - twisted minds think aike


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

TimWieneke,

I see what youre saying about the inspectors and plan change approvals. It DOESN'T happen. Not here anyways, nor anywhere else I have ever had the displeasure of witnessing carpenters' discretion. The city of Lockport approved plans for D. Oxley Construction and he built a complete piece of garbage (like he always does) and now the city is being sued for approving the inspections. THey just come out, look around, and say ok if there is nothing major wrong. The place isnt falling down, but to industry standards......not even close.

Where are you from, BTW?


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

If it were me, I would call my local builders assocn and ask about attorneys that specialize in the construction industry and begin organizing a suit.
You may not be able to push the code issue very far as it apparently passed inspections but you might get somewhere by pushing the plan and specification issues.


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Never heard that one, but I'll bet Grump would have some input.

Bob


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## TimWieneke (Nov 1, 2004)

"According to my lawyer I have to show “damages”."

I'm not attorney, but I'm willing to guess damages would also include a void on any truss warranty due to the installation.


"I need to show what the difference of value would be if the house was built according to plan."

I didn't see this earlier but did you get an appraisal? It's hard to argue against the numbers on an appraisal.


BTW - I didn't remember if this was mentioned and I don't know how it is for you but here in Illinois, blueprints are considered just as much a part of the legal contract as the page you sign. It's quite simple. If someone doesn't follow the blueprints (provided they're drawn right....another story  ) then they are legally obligated to change the construction to follow them otherwise they are not complying with the conditions of the contract.

Tim


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

"It's hard to argue with the number on an apppraisal"

Having been in Real Estate for over 20 years as a Broker, the appraisal issue will not have weight. What I mean is an appraisal is an estimate of value. It is done for the "Lender" as an "opinion". I have had appraisals come in on properties well over $150,000 apart before. An appraisal is like an expert witness. Whoever is having it done can make the numbers work within the guidelines. That is why they have underwriters.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

pondman said:


> the appraisal issue will not have weight


Pray tell us then, what will?


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

If there were not damages then why are there so many patches? I never have to patch up good workmanship.


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

This is a damage issue not a value issue.

"Pray tell what will..."

The contract, the blueprints, the finished product. 

Just a start.


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## TimWieneke (Nov 1, 2004)

"Having been in Real Estate for over 20 years as a Broker, the appraisal issue will not have weight."

Really? You acquire millions in financing using them, why not tens to hundreds of thousands of damages?

Tim


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2005)

*structural engineer looked at it on Tuesday*



TimWieneke said:


> "Having been in Real Estate for over 20 years as a Broker, the appraisal issue will not have weight."
> 
> Really? You acquire millions in financing using them, why not tens to hundreds of thousands of damages?
> 
> Tim


Hi All,

The structural engineer (Professional Engineering Group, LLC .. Cincinnati, OH) spent a couple of hours looking over my house. He made me feel much better indicating to me that the house looked sound. He will take the plans and look at the floor joists (they used 2x10's plan called for 2x12's). 

As for the roof he plans to work me up a figure on how much it will cost to tear out and build the roof to plan. That according to my lawyer is my damages. I will let everyone know the outcome. 

Thanks for all the support,

Ben www.microfilmplus.com/house.html


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Tim,

Ask your finance company, ask your Banker, ask whoever is giving you a loan.

All will tell you an appraisal is an opinion of value. It's is only done fore the lender so as to protect their investment. They may not even require one.

Legal issues are more complex.

You don't walk into court with an appraisal and say here are my damages. All it will show is the value by opinion.

Like his lawyer said (which looks like something very similar in my post) Your damages are the roof, what it costs to tear it off and rebuild it correctly.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2005)

*I have a question about roof shingles.*

If they repair the basin area by changing the wrong design of the roof to the plan design, is it possible to add the same type of shingles and have them match the existing shingles that are about 4 years old? www.microfilmplus.com/house.html

Thanks,

Ben


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Are you saying this all happened 4 years ago???

I just went and revisited your photos.......... They are dated 2001????

Why are you just now getting with an attorney?

When did you first get with an attorney?
When did you first file damage suit against builder?
Did your attorney say anything about Statute time and limitations?

What the hell is going on here?  

Picture of roof damages on 10/2001
Picture of finished house with mature yard on 9/2003

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Are you testing us ??? Has this already been resolved ???

Shingles not made in the same lot or batch will be close to matching, but you will be able to tell a difference.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

pondman said:


> Are you saying this all happened 4 years ago???


Pond- from the website
"The contractor walked off the job sometime in October 01. He told us he would not continue to work on the house until we paid him an additional draw. We told him that the roof was not acceptable and we asked him what was he going to do about it? He pulled his sign and placed a lien on our property. We are now in litigation. With the help from several subcontractors, we were able to finish the house and move into our new home on about July 01 2002. About 13 months after the start of construction."


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

My bad. Still why so long to bring up damages. Clock starts ticking from day he pulled off job.

My other questions still remain. Biggest one is there a time Statute?


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## Doofus Emeritus (Dec 18, 2004)

pondman said:


> My bad. Still why so long to bring up damages. Clock starts ticking from day he pulled off job.
> 
> My other questions still remain. Biggest one is there a time Statute?


Mr. Pondman,

All I know is here in CA, we have what they call the 'Latent Defect Law'. If you can prove the contractor willfully disregarded the building code and/or did lousy workmanship, you have up to 10 years to file suit. It's the main reason (and W/C) small contractors like me are getting squeezed to the point of going solo, or having to move out of state. 

Best regards


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

'Latent' defects are generally considered to be those that couldn't have otherwise been "reasonably inspected for". A portion of a foundation wall that collapses because the aggregate mix was substandard; a yard that develops a sink hole because stumps were buried; FRP sheathing in the 80's; etc., etc.


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Thanks Pipe..........

By the way........Glass wants to know......What are your girls wearing tonight...... :cheesygri :cheesygri


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Hey now Pond, let me handle my own recruiting....................Pipe, do you know any girls that are not yours and what may they possibly be wearing?

I can't do the friends family or lady thing.

Bob


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2005)

*Pondman .. you are right, this has been going on for years.*



pondman said:


> Are you saying this all happened 4 years ago???
> 
> I just went and revisited your photos.......... They are dated 2001????
> 
> ...



No, not testing you. We just called the lien in 2004.

We contacted our lawyer as soon as the builder walked off the job. Our lawyer made a few calls to try to get the contractor back to work. The contractor would not respond to any of our attorney’s phone calls or letter. The builder sent me a letter demanding we pay another draw. We asked him to bring everything up-to-date, change the roof as the plan calls for and we would pay him another draw. No response from the builder. The builder placed a mechanics lien on our property and made no further contact with us. Our lawyer told us that we could send him a letter and call the lien and at that time we could file a counter suite. 

In that the contractor had a large chunk of our money we were unable to justify tearing the roof off and starting over. We needed to continue with this house because it was costing us about $1000 per month to rent a place to stay and store our furniture. 

Our lawyer advised us that we could ignore the contractor and continue on with the construction by hiring others to complete projects. If we were to call his lien, the house could be tied up in court for many months. As long as the lien is on our property I would be able to call it anytime and then file my counter suite. I think he said we had up to 6 years? 

I was concerned that when the building department inspected the rough framing that they would not pass the construction. If the house failed inspection I would be in deep trouble. We didn’t have enough money to redo the roof and the contractor would not respond. 

The inspector came out and walked through the house and failed some simple things but passed the house as a whole. He didn’t even give the roof a second look. I repaired the items he failed the inspector came back out and passed the rough-in

With references from neighbors, I was able to find good subs to help me finish. I was extremely fortunate to get hooked up with a true craftsman. Along with his son they were able to pull together areas of the house that I don’t think our original contractor had any idea on how he was going to make fit. 

With my electrical background, I wired the complete house, fire and security system. I repaired all the damage done to the floor. I installed all the floor tile, bathrooms sinks, johns etc. I think the hardest part was pulling all that electrical wire. A few months earlier I had just went through having a heart attack and triple bi-pass. 

We might have a date for February 1 2005 for mediation of the dispute?? 

I added some new finished house pictures here: www.microfilmplus.com/house.html 


Thanks,

Ben


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Ben,

Sounds great. I feel much better for you knowing all the facts and timeline as you say. Sounds like your attorney is all over this. To summarize: are you going for damages for a roof teardown and rebuild? 

Mark


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2005)

*Mark*



pondman said:


> Ben,
> 
> Sounds great. I feel much better for you knowing all the facts and timeline as you say. Sounds like your attorney is all over this. To summarize: are you going for damages for a roof teardown and rebuild?
> 
> Mark



Mark,

An engineer from Professional Engineering Group, LLC was here last Tuesday 18 04. He spent a couple of hours looking over the construction. Good news for us is that the house seems to be sound. He took a set of the plans with him to give everything a closer look. He will be getting back to us on how much it will cost to bring the house within plan. 

We hope to prove that we were damaged by what the builder has done. We plan on asking for money damage and keep it in reserve when or if the roof gives us problems. Also if we decide to sell this house, we were told that it will be hard for the house to pass the prospective buyer’s house inspection. We can expect raised eyebrows when the roof is inspected. So we feel we have been damaged for the future sale price.

I hope our new lawyer is on top of our case. Our original lawyer was a very smart man. He was a personal friend of our family and was providing us with his service at no charge. Sorry to say, he passed away and we not only lost a dear friend but a strong aggressive ally. You know how there are those people that just command respect when they talk to you? Well, he was one of those people. .. rip .. 

Thanks,

Ben


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Best of Luck !!!! It will all work out, some way or another.

Mark


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2005)

...


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2005)

...


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

cdac said:


> That is not even remotely a feasable plan, much less a viable working drawing of anything executable.


THAT, sir, is very well said.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2005)

*You would need to see the blue prints to judge design*



cdac said:


> Based on an eyeballed copy of your roof plan not having any demension lines to go off of, your roof plan should have looked something like this. Who designed that anyway????



Chris, 

I appreciate your comment.

It’s my fault that the rough sketch on the internet is not a very good example of the blue print drawing of the roof. The plan is very feasible, if the contractor had been craftsman. I understand your inability to make a judgment on the plans because you haven’t seen the actual blue prints. 


The plans were designed by Piercy and Barclay Designers. Members of the American Institute of Building Design, College of Fellows, and nationally certified Building Designers, the Piercy family brings over 70 years of combined experience in the design industry to Piercy & Barclay Designers, Inc. Founded in 1974 by Keith Piercy, Piercy & Barclay is dedicated to creating home designs that mix current trends, exterior styles that appeal to consumers, and floor plan arrangements that suit current lifestyles.

The plans passed the building department as intended. The builder made major changes without any approval from anyone. I can’t understand how the building department let him make those changes without getting a drawing change with an engineer stamp.

Let’s don’t forget the sistered rafter tails or missing headers, etc. I think those are big deals. I have been looking around at new construction and taking a few pictures. I have yet to see any shoddy workmanship like what this builder gave me. Let’s put the blame where it belongs and that is on a contractor that has no business building houses.

I did get my engineer report. It cost $2,000 for the report but it shows that it’s going to take about $41,000 to repair the damages the builder caused. I will keep updating my website and later will be adding the above report. Thanks for all the input. www.microfilmplus.com/house.html

Ben


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