# Back feeding ele......



## craneop (Jan 22, 2011)

Personally electricity scares the @#$t out of me. If you @#&k up you will DIE!!!!!

I would like to know what you electricians think about the practice of back feeding electricity into a home from a portable generator through an outlet or service/sub panel. I have used this method to supply power to my home in emergency situations but have ALWAYS informed my utility provider that we are on bu generator.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

I believe they call that a suicide cord...

The poco allows that?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

'Round here, if the POCO knows you're on a genny without a proper transfer switch, they'll cut you off from the grid and will not reconnect until they inspect said required transfer switch.

Doing what you're doing is an invitation to get sued.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Back feeding like that will be just fine during the nuclear winter after all power companies are offline until civilization rebuilds. Any other time, not such a good idea. :thumbsup:


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

craneop said:


> Personally electricity scares the @#$t out of me. If you @#&k up you will DIE!!!!!
> 
> I would like to know what you electricians think about the practice of back feeding electricity into a home from a portable generator through an outlet or service/sub panel. I have used this method to supply power to my home in emergency situations but have ALWAYS informed my utility provider that we are on bu generator.


It scares the crap out of you, yet you use a suicide cord with no transfer device?????? 

Think about that as you re-read 480's and Tin's replies. :whistling


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

480sparky said:


> '
> 
> Round here, if the POCO knows you're on a genny without a proper transfer switch, they'll cut you off from the grid and will not reconnect until they inspect said required transfer switch.
> 
> Doing what you're doing is an invitation to get sued.


I'm afraid I'm going to have to call B.S. on this one.

It's hard to believe they would have that kind of authority. I can understand it maybe if it was an automatic switchover setup. I have done it on several occasions during extended outages. I work with those guys all the time and have never heard of any such restrictions. As a state licensed master electrician and former electric utility distribution operations person, I certainly know to open my main breaker to isolate from the grid but I have no plans to install a "proper transfer switch" for such an infrequent event. Hell, when the power comes back on my generator would probably be smoked before the 50 amp breaker I have for my mig welder (which is where I plug in) cleared the flash. And I don't live on some podunk rural cooperative. I'm on the largest electric delivery company in the state. If you're feeding back into the grid, you'll almost immediately overload your generator. Utility personnel will either work it as if were hot or they will short circuit (if open-wye or three phase) and ground anything they don't want to work hot. The last ice storm we had my power was out for almost four days. There were generators all over the place.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

txgencon said:


> I'm afraid I'm going to have to call B.S. on this one............



Then you'd be flat-out wrong.

Line crews may work on line hot..... only if they have to. Just because they're line crews doesn't mean they always work hot.

They have every right to assume that when THEY turn the power off, some doofus backfeeding their panel with a generator isn't hooked up to THEIR lines, thereby creating a shock hazard for the line crew.

POCOs here HAVE and WILL CONTINUE to disconnect people who don't have the proper setups to run gennys. If they're running a cord in through the window to fire up the fridge, that's fine.... but if it's hooked up the the house wiring, they'll cut you off.

Believe it or not. I could not care any less if you don't. You don't live here. I do.

If you want proof, click here and go to page 35.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

txgencon said:


> It's hard to believe they would have that kind of authority.


Whaddaya do in Tx, shoot 'em if they cut you off? Most places I"m aware of, the POCO has the final say on whether they are willing to sell you their product. Possible exception being a life-threatening situation.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

txgencon said:


> I certainly know to open my main breaker to isolate from the grid


But the average DIY Joe does not.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Whaddaya do in Tx, shoot 'em if they cut you off? ...........


That's Texas all the time, isn't it? They never changed their calendars after Judge Roy Bean sat on the bench. :laughing:


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

480sparky said:


> ...They have every right to assume that when THEY turn the power off, some doofus backfeeding their panel with a generator isn't hooked up to THEIR lines, thereby creating a shock hazard for the line crew.


The operating and safety rules for electric utility workers are pretty much the same all over the U.S.. No one assumes a line is dead even if they can see a physical break in the conductor or an open fused cutout or disconnect. Even if they can see both ends of a line, they are required to install grounds if they want to work it with work gloves - otherwise they work it as if it were energized.



480sparky said:


> POCOs here HAVE and WILL CONTINUE to disconnect people who don't have the proper setups to run gennys. If they're running a cord in through the window to fire up the fridge, that's fine.... but if it's hooked up the the house wiring, they'll cut you off.


How would they know?

So if they discovered that you were backfeeding the panel with a portable generator you would have to install a "proper transfer switch" even if you signed an agreement promising not to do it again? I don't think so.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

txgencon said:


> The operating and safety rules for electric utility workers are pretty much the same all over the U.S.. No one assumes a line is dead even if they can see a physical break in the conductor or an open fused cutout or disconnect. Even if they can see both ends of a line, they are required to install grounds if they want to work it with work gloves - otherwise they work it as if it were energized.


Well, I hate to tell you, but not every POCO is cut from the same mold. What MAE does here isn't a carbon copy of what TXU does. They are businesses, and they can make up whatever rules they want to (within the law) in order to run their business.




txgencon said:


> How would they know?


Uh, line crews have ears, don't they? They can also detect the energized lines, can't they? It's not like they drive up and down the roads doing nothing but looking for generators, but if they find one operating like the OPs set-up, they are well within their legal rights to maintain the safety of their people.



txgencon said:


> So if they discovered that you were backfeeding the panel with a portable generator you would have to install a "proper transfer switch" even if you signed an agreement promising not to do it again? I don't think so.


Obviously you didn't click on the link. No, the line crews don't deal with paperwork like that. Nor would the office. Their legal department would never have a customer sign an agreement like that.

They would simply cut you off (whether you're energized from the utility or not), and you would not get hooked back up until a licensed electrician obtained a permit, installed a proper transfer switch, both the POCO and AHJ inspects & passes the install, and then a line crew would return to hook you back up.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Yes, I did click on the link and read page 35 (and a little bit on page 36) earlier.

TXU doesn't have anything to do with the _delivery_ of electricity in Texas. 

The company to which I originally referred is ONCOR. There service regs do not address portable or standby generators. See for yourself:

http://www.oncor.com/pdf/construct/guidelines/ESGJuly2010.pdf

For the electric delivery company serving my "farm". See page 17 in the following:

https://www.swepco.com/global/utilities/lib/docs/service/Meter/SWEPCoElectricServiceHandbook.pdf 

They discuss it and say "should" but nothing like the bureaucratic B.S. you guys have to put up with.

I will agree that if they discovered a backfeed they would certainly have the right to pull your meter or disconnect the service at the pole, handhole or at the pad transformer. But if all they have to go on is the drone of a portable generator.... How is it that they would know the difference from a cord feeding the refrigerator, TV and some lights and backfeeding the panel? Seems like they could pull the meter and check for voltage if they heard one. When they did and determined that there was no voltage at the meter, what are they going to do? Demand to enter your home to investigate? Get real.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

txgencon said:


> ..............I will agree that if they discovered a backfeed they would certainly have the right to pull your meter or disconnect the service at the pole, handhole or at the pad transformer. But if all they have to go on is the drone of a portable generator.... How is it that they would know the difference from a cord feeding the refrigerator, TV and some lights and backfeeding the panel? Seems like they could pull the meter and check for voltage if they heard one. When they did and determined that there was no voltage at the meter, what are they going to do? Demand to enter your home to investigate? Get real.



Here, I'll get real for you.... I can't answer on their behalf.

Their number is 800-799-4443. If you have a problem with the way they run their business, I'll let you take it up with them.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm tempted to move up there and test the legality of that policy. I'm sure if I did, I could become a pretty large stakeholder in that company if I wanted. What a ridiculous indefensible bunch of crap!


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Years ago a I had a towable generator. During extended power outages I would go to friends homes & charge up their refers/freezers/water htrs. & what ever. It was a big generator. If I tied into the main service the breaker was open. Usually I just hooked up to the item being charged up. More than once the POCO stopped to check how I was connected. But I knew a lot of them fellas & never put them in danger.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

txgencon said:


> I'm tempted to move up there and test the legality of that policy. I'm sure if I did, I could become a pretty large stakeholder in that company if I wanted. What a ridiculous indefensible bunch of crap!



All you'd do is make the lawyers rich.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

480sparky said:


> All you'd do is make the lawyers rich.


I doubt it. They're not very big but they'd probably settle out of court for a couple million (if one of their linemen forced his way into my house). 

Gee, what is the source of your fear of those guys?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

txgencon said:


> I doubt it. They're not very big but they'd probably settle out of court for a couple million (if one of their linemen forced his way into my house).
> 
> Gee, what is the source of your fear of those guys?


I don't fear them. I simply comply with their rules. BTW, the lineman don't come into your house. They simply cut your service off at the pole.

BTW, if you got $2mil, your lawyer would be quick to take his $1.333mil cut.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

This seems to come down to 
putting linemen in slightly more than normal danger from a homeowner energizing a line 
vs.
a homeowner's inconvenience or expense.

Regardless of what's written on paper, I can't imagine a jury not passing judgement in favor of a widow whose husband was killed because a homeowner didn't know about this hazard, was not curious enough to inquire, or didn't want to spend $[fill in this amount] to prevent some lineman from taking on additional, and presumably unwanted, risk.

See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I don't fear them. I simply comply with their rules. BTW, the lineman don't come into your house. They simply cut your service off at the pole.


I guess you're not reading all of my posts. I asked how they would verify I had the generator hooked to the house wiring (as opposed to running a few things off a cord connected to the generator). They checked at the meter - no problem there - so some lineman is going to disconnect your service at the pole? Bubba, what if there is no pole? Did you not notice that I mentioned a few other places he might disconnect the service (handhole, padmount transformer - gee, I left off pedestal) Do you think maybe I might know a little bit about electric utility operations? 

People are afraid of things about which they have little knowledge.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

txgencon said:


> I guess you're not reading all of my posts. I asked how they would verify I had the generator hooked to the house wiring (as opposed to running a few things off a cord connected to the generator). They checked at the meter - no problem there - so some lineman is going to disconnect your service at the pole? Bubba, what if there is no pole? Did you not notice that I mentioned a few other places he might disconnect the service (handhole, padmount transformer - gee, I left off pedestal) Do you think maybe I might know a little bit about electric utility operations?


You really don't get it, do you? You think the POCOs are bound by some law to provide electricity to your house no matter what you do. Sorry, but you're plain wrong about that. They are a business, and they can sell electrons to whoever they damn well please. If they don't want to sell them to you, they are not obliged to. Live with it. You're not going to change that *fact*... no matter how much you waste your breath threatening lawsuits about it.

Maybe it's your Texas attitude that makes you think linemen go around with six-shooters and rifles, busting down doors whenever they hear a genny running during a power outage. Well, we do things a little more civilized 'round here. Perhaps they knock on the door and kindly and the homeowner if they can look at their service. Ever think of that?

No pole? No problem. There's a POCO-owned transformer _somewhere_. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. You can huff and puff and stick your chest out all you want.... nothing's gonna change.



txgencon said:


> People are afraid of things about which they have little knowledge.


And some people like to ***** about a company's business practices when they have no experience with them. Like I said, id YOU have a problem with THEM, TRY CALLING THEM. I gave you their number.

As for me:


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

It would be interesting to know what they have on you.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

txgencon said:


> It would be interesting to know what they have on you.


Seriously? Let's keep this professional. You made me miss a bite of my popcorn.

Carry on.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

txgencon said:


> It would be interesting to know what they have on you.



You really want to know?

Nothing.



Seriously...... you just don't get it, do you? You honestly think I'm cowering in a corner? Are you for freaking real?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> ......... You made me miss a bite of my popcorn........


.

Here ya go!:








​


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Thanks 480, I spent all my thanks today.:laughing: None left!


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## BPWY (Sep 21, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> Thanks 480, I spent all my thanks today.:laughing: None left!







Why is it that this thread has no thanks button on the posts?



And yet other sections of the forum do.


Is there some secret handshake that I don't know about? :thumbup:


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

I've run into the mentality of which you speak at the electric company, the gas company, the city, the telephone company, etc.. Many years ago, Southwestern Bell (now AT&T here) even had the advertising slogan "We may be the only telephone company in town, but we try not to act like it." In all fairness, most of them really did try. Unfortunately, there were always some who couldn't grasp that concept. There are always individuals in companies that think their monopoly on services gives them power that really doesn't exist. All of these companies still have to operate under the laws of the state and fall under the jurisdiction of a public utility commission or, in the case of municipalities, the courts. I don't think it's a Texas thing that causes me to sometimes challenge a particular policy. I don't think the term sheeple is location sensitive.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

BPWY said:


> Why is it that this thread has no thanks button on the posts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a daily allotment of thanks, so we use them wisely. Mine are gone again today too.:laughing:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

I got'em.
Use yours all up?
5 if I reckon.


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## denjul (Mar 28, 2009)

Hi everybody. This is getting interesting. It ain't rocket science to tell when a line is off and somebody is generating their own electricity. We had every right to shut off a service if somebody was not hooked up according to code but only did that if things were really hooked up unsafe. We always grounded the line before working on it if it was to be worked without rubber gloves. The bigger problem was when we had big storms and brought in other crews who did not know our system. Utility's run on the National Electric Saftey Code and anything from the meter towards the consumer runs on the National Electric Code and both are specific about generator hookups.

Sorry I don't have my avatar up or signature. I am a retired line forman for utility and am now an electrical contractor


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

griz said:


> I got'em.
> Use yours all up?
> 5 if I reckon.


I'll owe ya. I need 2.


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## BPWY (Sep 21, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> There is a daily allotment of thanks, so we use them wisely. Mine are gone again today too.:laughing:





griz said:


> I got'em.
> Use yours all up?
> 5 if I reckon.












I did not know there was a limit, hmmmmmmm.
There was a secret handshake. lol


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

denjul said:


> Hi everybody. This is getting interesting. It ain't rocket science to tell when a line is off and somebody is generating their own electricity. We had every right to shut off a service if somebody was not hooked up according to code but only did that if things were really hooked up unsafe. We always grounded the line before working on it if it was to be worked without rubber gloves. The bigger problem was when we had big storms and brought in other crews who did not know our system. Utility's run on the National Electric Saftey Code and anything from the meter towards the consumer runs on the National Electric Code and both are specific about generator hookups.


Hey Denjul,

Nice to have you here and welcome. Please do an intro in the introduction section.:thumbsup:


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

denjul said:


> ... We always grounded the line before working on it if it was to be worked without rubber gloves. The bigger problem was when we had big storms and brought in other crews who did not know our system.


Outside crews _should be_ especially cautious for backfeeds. When I worked for an electric utility (30+ years) I worked numerous storms (ice, hurricane, tornado) outside of my normal area (both within the service area of my employer) and on other utility's facilities (as part of the mutual assistance arrangements my company had with other companies). Heck, some of my co-workers went to Florida a couple of years back.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

denjul said:


> Hi everybody. .........


Den! Glad you made it here!


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## FremontREO (Sep 30, 2009)

fftopic:

Sparky,
Man o Man that Hawkeye thing is just killing me.... 

Funny but oh thats just a killer......my poor Hawks:wacko:


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

denjul said:


> Hi everybody. This is getting interesting. It ain't rocket science to tell when a line is off and somebody is generating their own electricity. We had every right to shut off a service if somebody was not hooked up according to code but only did that if things were really hooked up unsafe. We always grounded the line before working on it if it was to be worked without rubber gloves. The bigger problem was when we had big storms and brought in other crews who did not know our system. Utility's run on the National Electric Saftey Code and anything from the meter towards the consumer runs on the National Electric Code and both are specific about generator hookups.
> 
> Sorry I don't have my avatar up or signature. I am a retired line forman for utility and am now an electrical contractor


Welcome. We have similar backgrounds. If you're like most of electric utility turned electricians I know, if was hard to get away from tying neutrals and grounds together. Every once in a while, I'll do service work in a rural area where the licensing is lax and can tell which houses were wired by lineman - all the neutrals and grounds tied together (before GFI's and AFCI's) and all the connections damn tight.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

rselectric1 said:


> There is a daily allotment of thanks, so we use them wisely. Mine are gone again today too.:laughing:


I don't know. I just dropped six and can still keep going. :blink:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

I hoard mine. I think I'm up to about 16,270 right now. :laughing:


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> I don't know. I just dropped six and can still keep going. :blink:


Petey, I think you get about 10 per 24 hour period. So smoke em while you got em.:laughing:

Same probably on ET.


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## denjul (Mar 28, 2009)

txgencon said:


> Welcome. We have similar backgrounds. If you're like most of electric utility turned electricians I know, if was hard to get away from tying neutrals and grounds together. Every once in a while, I'll do service work in a rural area where the licensing is lax and can tell which houses were wired by lineman - all the neutrals and grounds tied together (before GFI's and AFCI's) and all the connections damn tight.


Yes to all. I thought I knew all I needed to be an electrician but had to get humbelled pretty fast. It is deffinatly 2 different worlds. I did an early retirement from an REC and started doing electrical work to supplement my income. I do a little bit of light carpentry also. Whatever comes in to stay busy.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

denjul said:


> Yes to all. I thought I knew all I needed to be an electrician but had to get humbelled pretty fast. It is deffinatly 2 different worlds. I did an early retirement from an REC and started doing electrical work to supplement my income. I do a little bit of light carpentry also. Whatever comes in to stay busy.


OK denjul, we have now been warned about you. Petey said I should ban you and 480 said I should let you post for at least another hour. So which is it?

JK-Great to have you here!


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## denjul (Mar 28, 2009)

It's getting about bed time anyway. I'll be back tho!
Forgot to tell you that I am from S.E. Iowa and in the middle of Amish country so I get to see both the old way and new way to build. I have a neighbor that has a bakery and I get to tease 480 about all the goodies I get. (he really likes their pies)


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

So, like if you have a 50kW generator connected right at the panel with the main breaker turned off and you turn it back on with the generator still running after the power comes back on when it just happens to be 180degrees out of phase, what will break?


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Electric_Light said:


> So, like if you have a 50kW generator connected right at the panel with the main breaker turned off and you turn it back on with the generator still running after the power comes back on when it just happens to be 180degrees out of phase, what will break?


With a little luck, the main breaker will trip first. If not, perhaps the secondary breaker on the CSP transformer(s) will trip (if served by a CSP transformer). If not, then maybe then primary fuse on the conventional transformer will trip (if served by a conventional transformer) . If not, maybe the line fuse will trip (starting to get ugly now). Without that luck (and I predict there wouldn't be much chance of being that lucky), something is going to blow. 

Why would I turn it back on?


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## denjul (Mar 28, 2009)

It doesn't have to be 180 degrees out to get ugly. Any differnce in degrees or voltage isn't good. If you don't have some syncronizing equipement don't hook them together!!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

txgencon said:


> Why would I turn it back on?



Because you know better because you're a lineman and an electrician. Both of which the average Joe Homeowner _isn't_.

YOU know perfectly well about the dangers of pitting a genny against the utility. Joe _doesn't_. He's never learned about vectors and phase angles and cogeneration and synchronization. All he wants is to be able to run the furnace, keep the basement dry and save the food in the fridge.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

txgencon said:


> Why would I turn it back on?


User error. You wouldn't do it intentionally. Fool proof transfer switch isn't even necessary if there is no possibility that someone may unintentionally close the main circuit breaker with the generator running while the utility power is still out.


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## craneop (Jan 22, 2011)

Ty all for your iuput. I have decided that that using my generator in this way is a liability I can not afford. 

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.


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