# Grouting Cells



## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

Im wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction for some reading.

I dont do alot of block work, but Im wondering how often to grout cells in a block wall.

The block wall is 100' by 20' high and going to be 8" block. Its an existing building someone wants to split in half for renting. So how often would you make grout cells, at what intervals?

I dont believe the slab has footers underneath it, and shouldnt it with that much weight going on there?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I come up with a floor loading of around 16 PSI for an ungrouted wall, so a standard 4-5" reinforced slab should not have problems. I most commonly see walls of this type grouted 32" OC, with horizontal BB every 5'.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

If that is a 5" slab, and if it was well compacted, it should be ok.....I would expect the unexpected, and suggest a footing....maybe I am being overly cautious....


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

A 20' high wall needs a footing.

You only grout the cells that a designer has ordered to be reinforced. Not necessary to grout the empty cells. the grout should be 8"-11" slump (wet).

I hope the designer had enough sense to provide lateral support at the top of the wall.


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

concretemasonry said:


> A 20' high wall needs a footing.
> 
> You only grout the cells that a designer has ordered to be reinforced. Not necessary to grout the empty cells. the grout should be 8"-11" slump (wet).
> 
> I hope the designer had enough sense to provide lateral support at the top of the wall.


 :thumbup:


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

As far as I know there has been know designer or engineer involved, thats why I asked. I dont want to be responsible for anything.


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## jshuatree (Feb 21, 2010)

if theres a door grout up the sides and the cells on each side and bond beam over the top ...then grout and rebar...grout the next 2 courses solid spanning the door and the block on each side of the door...grout every 32'' and a bond beam at every sixth course.. ......................................................... Should 20' be braced after work for wind?.................. when putting in your rebar over lap where they meet 32''


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

*If *grout is spec-ed it typically is 32"O.C. like Tscar said, but around here a BB every 5' would be unusual. I have worked on dividing walls in warehouses similar to what you are describing with no grout at all. Don't forget to put some CJ's in there.
If you want no liability sounds like you will need an engineer to stamp some drawings for you and check out the slab you have. Good luck.:thumbsup:


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

six,i always grout the end cell.which would be the one butted up to the existing wall.then i go 32 in on center.bond beams every four feet.i wont insult your intelligence by telling you that you should grout both cells on either side of an opening.


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## masonlifer (Jun 10, 2007)

I always depend on the plans to specify rebar location and footings. This can vary around the country depending on many factors, including what earthquake zone you are located and the type of occupancy of the structure. You may try getting some old plans from someone in your area and get a general idea of structural requirements for like similar structures. I agree with concrete about the need for a footing. If I have any doubts about anything I am building I let the structural engineer decide what to do.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

There are no plans for this. Thats why I was asking. Not sure if I really want the liability here.


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## jshuatree (Feb 21, 2010)

stacker said:


> six,i always grout the end cell.which would be the one butted up to the existing wall.then i go 32 in on center.bond beams every four feet.i wont insult your intelligence by telling you that you should grout both cells on either side of an opening.


sorry if i sounded like that .....but im trying to take in consideration that he said he hardly ever does blockwork...but even if he did know this, I felt like it would be good to have this in here not only for him but for anybody who later on might be looking for info on this subject theyll come across this thread and there u go theyll have plenty ...even the installation of the doors ...if i offended my apologies...:surrender: this is like a big book so why not include this in this thread its a good place for it...


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

6stringmason said:


> There are no plans for this. That's why I was asking. Not sure if I really want the liability here.


We are coming back to a common topic here on this board. Customers who for one reason or another want to take some short cuts, and get something done.

While doing something like this in an industrial setting is something I could understand, in a commercial setting it becomes more problematical. What worries me the most, is the size of the wall, and no designer or engineer present.

I have been involved in many commercial jobs where the owners (some of the biggest commercial realtors and leasing agents in Seattle) want substantial work done sans' permit. This was normally because of intense time-crunches. But even then, there were architects and engineers involved.

Concretemasonary's rhetorical question



> I hope the designer had enough sense to provide lateral support at the top of the wall.


is a very good and enlightening one, and one you should be cognizant of even in a non seismic area

If you do not have enough experience to seat-of-the-pants design this structure, or feel uneasy to do the work without someone stamp involved, I would decline. Or maybe tell them that they need an engineer involved, and they might listen


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

jshuatree,i was just in a sarcastic mood yesterday.i hope i didnt offend you.if i did i am sorry.

six,after reading you first post again.i dont see where you would have any problem with this job,if you follow what we have said.this will not be a load bearing wall,so that isnt an issue.its a partition wall.tie the two walls,(i use hail screen nailed to the wall im butting up to.)or you can use wall ties.i find hail screen gives a better tie for this application.drill into the wall and pin your rebar into it when doing your bond beams.2 number 4 rebar in the BB and one number 5 in the verticals and you should be set.i think i would lay the full length of wall to the BB height and then pour vertical and BBs.pin you vertical rebar to the floor 5-6 inches,and leave 12 inch over BB for over lap.you wont want to lift your block 5 feet over every vertical rebar,so i would use about an 18 inch rebar in each vertical pinned to the floor.
good luck,my friend.


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## 4th generation (Mar 28, 2008)

This brings to mind a rebuild job that we did many years ago.it was inside an existing warehouse that had been partitioned up into 2 units with a block wall. Each unit with its own overhead door. In what I would call a freak incident one day one of the overhead loading dock doors were opened on a very gusty windy day, and the pressure build up in the building was sufficient to bring the wall down, yes an inside wall! almost killing the guy working at an open desk on the blow-down side, the wall had been reinforced with blok lok but no corefill & re-bar or permits..Guess who got blamed for it and sued? yup the mason who built it.


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

4th generation said:


> the wall had been reinforced with blok lok but no corefill & re-bar or permits..Guess who got blamed for it and sued? yup the mason who built it.


the mason,weither it was you or whoever,should have had enough sense to grout verticals and bond beams,and pin it to the floor with the rebar.it doesnt matter if it is only a 3 foot high wall,i will grout verticals.anything over 4 foot i will include bond beams.


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## 4th generation (Mar 28, 2008)

Nope Wasn't me that built it first, I was called in to _rebuild_ it the right way, and your right they should have had enough sense to do it right the first time. Another example of the hacks getting the job on a cheap price, only this time it blew up in their face and nearly killed someone.


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

4th,i hope you dont think i was making it sound like it was you.i pretty well know from your responses you would have known enough to do the job right.


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## buckz6319 (Apr 1, 2010)

6stringmason said:


> Im wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction for some reading.
> 
> I dont do alot of block work, but Im wondering how often to grout cells in a block wall.
> 
> ...


I would recommend you get a current licensed structural engineer to assist with this project, they are expensive but well worth the time and expertise they have.The engineers will cover all the bases with you and design a plan of attack and if you follow their instructions you and the property owner will be satisfied...and of course check with your local building department before any work is started because you may have to permit the job....I hope this helps


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

Still talking with the guy. After further review and seeing the site, he does have a footing in place already.

Thanks for the info guys!


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

buckz6319 said:


> I would recommend you get a current licensed structural engineer to assist with this project, they are expensive but well worth the time and expertise they have.The engineers will cover all the bases with you and design a plan of attack and if you follow their instructions you and the property owner will be satisfied...and of course check with your local building department before any work is started because you may have to permit the job....I hope this helps


one thing you left out.it will add boo coo bucks to a realitivley easy project.i would venture to guess there is more expertise on this forum,than with any high paid engineers.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

There is a big difference - The engineer will see the actual conditions AND be responsible for all recommendations he makes. If they are not followed, this is where the contractors liability and responsibility comes in. The web site is just opinions based on what information is posted on the site.

Most contractors will not accept a situation to bid with no plans or specification unless they have there own professional advice.


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## buckz6319 (Apr 1, 2010)

concretemasonry said:


> There is a big difference - The engineer will see the actual conditions AND be responsible for all recommendations he makes. If they are not followed, this is where the contractors liability and responsibility comes in. The web site is just opinions based on what information is posted on the site.
> 
> Most contractors will not accept a situation to bid with no plans or specification unless they have there own professional advice.


I agree!.....The engineer is the way to go, with the experience you can't go wrong.


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## masonlifer (Jun 10, 2007)

Just a suggestion six. Under some occupancies the wall would require varying fire-wall ratings. You may suggest for the owner to check in with the local fire marshall if he has not already. Fire marshall can shut a project down or have it taken down after built faster then anyone.


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