# Pex... best thing since sliced bread?



## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

ChrWright said:


> Yes, and CPVC is God's gift to plumbing right... :laughing:


In the spirit of not derailing another post, I won't put up any PVC pictures for you.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Tech Dawg said:


> Tin, did u ever work in Lebanon?


Yes, a few jobs. But I have a client 15 minutes from Harrisburg who's good for at least 2-3 repair calls a year because of acid water. He won't add a treatment system, and he won't re-plumb. Just keeps calling me for repairs.


----------



## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

All the time I find cpvc water lines that were primed but not glued... sooo when your remodeling turn water off, do your thing, turn water back on, sometimes a primed fitting will blow! Oh, but wait, I thought plumbers only used stuff that homeowners can't adapt to...smh
Cpvc sux!


----------



## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

A master plumber of 28 years told me that cpvc is used by book smart plumber that can't solder worth a crap...

use copper and pex is ok too, as long as you check every single crimped fitting with your ring guage


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

angus242 said:


> Probably political/union influence. Honestly, I have no idea why.


For the same reason romex isn't code approved, it burns.


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> For the same reason romex isn't code approved, it burns.



...or that reason. :laughing:


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

The customer decides what product to use based on financial matters.

On the PEX question; Can anybody provide actual fact based reasons why PEX is bad? I'd like to hear from actual plumbers but I'll settle for a carpenter if that's what it takes. Please provide facts.:thumbsup:

PEX has been proven to work very very well, and the same goes for CPVC

At one time we thought the world was flat and gas HAD to be run in black iron. If my business doesn't adapt to the market place I'll be out of business. It's not as if I wake up in the morning with grandiose thoughts of running PEX but if I have to compete on a $30,000 plumbing job against 7 other contractors bidding in PEX I sure as phuc wont bid it in copper. I love copper, it looks awesome when installed but I also love being in business.

Opinions have no place when all the products are used with success and being competitive is important.

Besides, have any of you looked at the price of copper in the last few months? Home owners are not really interested in paying for something that costs 500% more when both products are used to deliver water and both work.

Maybe we should do in-floor heat with copper too:blink: Do the math.

Mike


----------



## MAD Renovations (Nov 18, 2007)

Up here in Canada well Calgary for me..... Pex is the norm and has been for quite some time. I have not seen a new build use copper for at least 10 years.


----------



## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

ive plumbed multi million dollar houses with PEX cause thats what they wanted...ive plumbed 1.5 bath houses with copper cause thats what they wanted... and vise versa

yus i prefer copper but pex has its place....


----------



## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

ChrWright said:


> Soft water and copper don't go well together over time. Pin hole leaks are a significant long term issue in houses with a water softener.
> 
> Hot water recirculation systems make it worse--especially if the timers go bad or the owners run them excessively. The moving water and turbulence erodes the interior of the pipe (especially if there are defects) and eventually causes a leak.
> 
> ...


I've never seen that problem due to soft water. Water softeners are mandatory around here due to the high iron and mineral content. The watersofteners keep the pipes from clogging up. My mother's house is over 50 years old and always had a softener since day one.All copper water and drain lines. It has hwbb also and has never had a pipe or fitting go bad.
On the other hand, head south of me about 15 miles into pine barrens area and there you will have corrosion problems. The water is so acidic, you have to treat it to neutralize it. My in laws house was that way. My father in law re-plumbed his copper lines through out the whole house three times before he wised up and did it in cpvc the last time. After he passed away my nephew bought the place and had to have a water test for the mortgage company. The water failed miserably and he had to spend $3000 on a neutralizing system.


----------



## William James (Mar 5, 2010)

Never crimped pex. Didn't even know they made a crimper until about 5 years ago. I too use Wirsbo Aquapex. 

Never had a pex joint leak when testing or there after. Started using Pex 10 years ago. Mainly use copper, but I do prefer pex. If pex leaks then it must be the wrong type of pex/method combo or faulty installation. Or possibly if you have rats!


----------



## Cairncross (Nov 16, 2010)

We are sick to death of warranty issues from pinhole copper leaks on our houses. 
We were just approved to use it in San Diego, and had our plumbers all switch. 

We had one plumber not ream his copper pipe and didn't catch him. He went out of business/left state on the 3rd clean-up and repair. The 5 year old recirc line has leaked 5 times.


----------



## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I held out switching from copper to pex for years, finally I told the plumbers to use pex. Functionally they are the same, neither leaks if installed properly. 

The water out of the faucets tastes different. Maybe I'm tasting the pex, maybe I'm not tasting the copper, or maybe it's all in my head but I think the water tastes different.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I love pex. Have been using it for 6 years. The crimpers are better now than they used to be. I always use the brass fittings, just makes me feel better, I guess. I can run lines twice as fast with pex vs. Copper. 
Is it true that pex can freeze and thaw 3 times without bursting?


----------



## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

do all of you "GC's" that use pex have insurance that covers plumbing??

not sayin anything about PEX but wonder how many of you unlicensed "Plumbers"

do plumbing with no insurance too???

and if you use a plumber im not sayin anything about that..

it just sounds like alot 
of you guys like to play plumber yourselfs


----------



## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

rex said:


> thing with PEX is it makes every guy who calls them self a carpenter a plumber too....



Pipe fitting can be an art. Nothing i love seeing more than a finely done copper job. Seems every pex job i see looks like hell.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

You know what really, really gets me are plumbers who remodel bathrooms. Rrrrrrrrrrr.


----------



## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

i only work for GC's who remodel them...

i got a master plumbers lic and a class 2b mechanical lic....thoes are the only 2 trades i touch

here is a small copper job i did yesterday...do that in PEX

check out the pex next to the brine tank...it feeds a hose bib on the other side of the barn...yes its michigan and a outside wall it will be winterized every winter after the pic i cut in a boiler drain to aid in blowin it out.....


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

rex said:


> do all of you "GC's" that use pex have insurance that covers plumbing??
> 
> not sayin anything about PEX but wonder how many of you unlicensed "Plumbers"
> 
> ...


In IL what they are doing is against the law unless it is in their own house.


----------



## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

our plumbers use pex in every house we work on, mostly. on the nice remodels, we have them run the pex then use copper stubs so the valves stay nice and straight. we are starting to see red and blue pex more and more. kind of nice for future remodels.
i really like the manifold pex systems. only used it once for a house and it was the best idea ever. if the plumbers are good they can run the lines nice and with very few joints. less joints= less leak.
copper will always be needed for some stuff, just no way to get cpvc or pex to stay rigid.


----------



## William James (Mar 5, 2010)

rex said:


> do all of you "GC's" that use pex have insurance that covers plumbing??
> 
> not sayin anything about PEX but wonder how many of you unlicensed "Plumbers"
> 
> ...


I'm a carpenter/remodeler by trade. I got into the trades working for a plumber then was stupid and went to work for a bathroom remodeling co. that has us do our own plumbing. Yes, the insurance covers the plumbing I do for them. And yes, Ive been "playing plumber" for over 8 years. 

I trust myself doing the type of plumbing i do alot more than some of the licensed "plumbers" out there that don't even test their work. Then have leaks. Cocky, arrogant bastards! Think just because you have a license you do better work than someone who actually has the knowledge, experience, and cares about their work. Not you personally, just some plumbers out there. And I do basically the same plumbing jobs day in and day out. So I'm more experienced in those areas, than a licensed "plumber" that does everything. 

It's legal, insured, and it's done right. I'm sure some of the other guys that do quality work are sick of being grouped with the hacks out there. There's licensed hacks too!


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Craftsman Jay said:


> I'm a carpenter/remodeler by trade. I got into the trades working for a plumber then was stupid and went to work for a bathroom remodeling co. that has us do our own plumbing. Yes, the insurance covers the plumbing I do for them. And yes, Ive been "playing plumber" for over 8 years.
> 
> I trust myself doing the type of plumbing i do alot more than some of the licensed "plumbers" out there that don't even test their work. Then have leaks. Cocky, arrogant bastards! Think just because you have a license you do better work than someone who actually has the knowledge, experience, and cares about their work. Not you personally, just some plumbers out there. And I do basically the same plumbing jobs day in and day out. So I'm more experienced in those areas, than a licensed "plumber" that does everything.
> 
> It's legal, insured, and it's done right. I'm sure some of the other guys that do quality work are sick of being grouped with the hacks out there. There's licensed hacks too!


Connecticut allows non licensed plumbers to legally do plumbing work?

Sounds like an epidemic waiting to happen.


----------



## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

angus242 said:


> Probably political/union influence. Honestly, I have no idea why.


Chicago has some really questionable codes, like all resi electrical run in conduit. I'm sure they have a lower fire rates than homes run with NM, but I'm also sure that it's negligible. Most likely some copper company paid a politician to push this legislation.


----------



## William James (Mar 5, 2010)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Connecticut allows non licensed plumbers to legally do plumbing work?
> 
> Sounds like an epidemic waiting to happen.


No, not all plumbing work. And not in all towns. Some is considered in the scope of work. Some towns are strict and want the plumber to pull the permit, but they don't care who does the work.


----------



## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

Totally agree on the "licensed hacks" part. Getting a license means you took a test. Big deal. I can ace any test given enough time to study, but that doesn't mean I'm qualified to do anything other than take a test.

Example:

The company I work for holds an electrical license. The wife of the owner took the test, but doesn't even know how to wire a 3-way circuit. Meanwhile, the owner, and I, both know how to wire pretty much any common type of residential circuit while referencing code correctly. Either way, we're "licensed" for formality's sake, but we know what we're doing when it comes to referencing code and doing the job correctly. Licensing is, and always will be, an exploitable joke. People who believe in licensing as a way to eliminate hacks are kidding themselves. Still, licensed contractors on this forum are so self-righteous that it makes me sick. The truth is that hacks will always be with us, so stop worrying about them and start worrying about yourselves.  Complaining about hacks is like complaining about snow, and honestly, it gets really old really quickly.


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Remodelor said:


> Totally agree on the "licensed hacks" part. Getting a license means you took a test. Big deal. I can ace any test given enough time to study, but that doesn't mean I'm qualified to do anything other than take a test.
> 
> Example:
> 
> The company I work for holds an electrical license. The wife of the owner took the test, but doesn't even know how to wire a 3-way circuit. Meanwhile, the owner, and I, both know how to wire pretty much any common type of residential circuit while referencing code correctly. Either way, we're "licensed" for formality's sake, but we know what we're doing when it comes to referencing code and doing the job correctly. Licensing is, and always will be, an exploitable joke. People who believe in licensing as a way to eliminate hacks are kidding themselves. Still, licensed contractors on this forum are so self-righteous that it makes me sick. The truth is that hacks will always be with us, so stop worrying about them and start worrying about yourselves.  Complaining about hacks is like complaining about snow, and honestly, it gets really old really quickly.


I agree. It's the same as Steve Jobs obsessing about some guy he doesn't even know in his parents basement building cell phones. I would rather be the guy making the best cell phone possible.:laughing:

Mike


----------



## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

Remodelor said:


> Totally agree on the "licensed hacks" part. Getting a license means you took a test. Big deal. I can ace any test given enough time to study, but that doesn't mean I'm qualified to do anything other than take a test.
> 
> Example:
> 
> The company I work for holds an electrical license. The wife of the owner took the test, but doesn't even know how to wire a 3-way circuit. Meanwhile, the owner, and I, both know how to wire pretty much any common type of residential circuit while referencing code correctly. Either way, we're "licensed" for formality's sake, but we know what we're doing when it comes to referencing code and doing the job correctly. Licensing is, and always will be, an exploitable joke. People who believe in licensing as a way to eliminate hacks are kidding themselves. Still, licensed contractors on this forum are so self-righteous that it makes me sick. The truth is that hacks will always be with us, so stop worrying about them and start worrying about yourselves.  Complaining about hacks is like complaining about snow, and honestly, it gets really old really quickly.


 
so what you can take a test big deal pat your self on the back....here for the jorneymans test you used to have to do a lead joint can you learn that in a book??? now they just dumbed it down a bit and make you build a copper mainfold

can you lay out a 3 story building with the specfic amount of fittings needed to past the masters just by reading a book??i think not 

im far from self righteous and yes i looked it up so i know what it means :laughing:


people call me cause i know wtf im doin and dont pretend cause i read it in a book

hey i got my builder lic all it took was 100 bucks and a day long class...you should see some of these guys runnin around building houses...do you live in michigan :thumbsup:
would i ever attempt to frame a wall?? hell no it would fall over...i am barely succesfull at putting in a piece of backing!!!

im all about people learnin but when it takes away money in my pocket cause some guy bought a book and is now a plumber/gc/electrician kinda pisses me off a bit


----------



## Terrorron (Nov 7, 2008)

Remodelor said:


> Totally agree on the "licensed hacks" part. Getting a license means you took a test. Big deal. I can ace any test given enough time to study, but that doesn't mean I'm qualified to do anything other than take a test.
> 
> Example:
> 
> The company I work for holds an electrical license. The wife of the owner took the test, but doesn't even know how to wire a 3-way circuit. Meanwhile, the owner, and I, both know how to wire pretty much any common type of residential circuit while referencing code correctly. Either way, we're "licensed" for formality's sake, but *we know what we're doing* when it comes to referencing code *and doing the job correctly. Licensing is, and always will be, an exploitable joke. *People who believe in licensing as a way to eliminate hacks are kidding themselves. Still, licensed contractors on this forum are so self-righteous that it makes me sick. The truth is that hacks will always be with us, so stop worrying about them and start worrying about yourselves.  Complaining about hacks is like complaining about snow, and honestly, *it gets really old really quickly.*


I "thanked" your post but wanted to elaborate a little further... 

More than a few years back, I did the first two years of the Pipefitter, Gasfitter, Steamfitter program at NAIT (Northern Alberta Institute of Technology) here in Edmonton. The education was invaluable; the first two years covers everything that you will run into in a residential situation (and a lot of other things far beyond that), first year covers all the bases with regards to residential plumbing. Over the years, things have changed (materials/methods) and I've kept up with the times. I'm a renovator and do *all* my own plumbing. I am NOT licensed but I AM insured; and I definitely KNOW what I'm doing. I was tooled up and running "Poly-B", back when IT was the "approved" way of doing things up here. All of my rigid pipefitting is neatly done, with accurately calculated offsets and strict code compliance...

But I didn't stick it out for the four years and GET MY TICKET...still this makes me a "HACK"???

On topic...yeah...pex is good. Buy a *good *set of crimpers (if you're using copper rings), test your crimps, and use manifolds for distribution. More of that "work smart, not hard" thing...quite the little hornet's nest going on here.:whistling


----------



## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

so you can lay out and plumb and pass a inspection on any building and make the work look good??

who pulls your permits??

so 4 years and you know it all?? i learn daily.... id love to see guys like you walk into a aparment/condo/hotel and lay it out then plumb it.... 

sure you can make repairs..

do you advertise on CL??

a pex manifold for potable water is a waste....


----------



## assets444 (Aug 20, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> On the PEX question; Can anybody provide actual fact based reasons why PEX is bad? I'd like to hear from actual plumbers but I'll settle for a carpenter if that's what it takes. Please provide facts.:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Mike


 
This is not meant to argue at all... just stating my opinion.

I can not base my dislike of pex on facts, only on past experiences. It was not long ago that we had major polybutylene failures ( I understand that the pipe and fittings are much better with pex). My plumber even went so far as to cap a water filled 3/4" foot long piece of pex.. brought it back to job site next morning frozen, it was swollen to what seemed double the size, and did not appear to be leaking. He then took the torch out and thawed it, and it was not leaking (I must admit, I was impressed). 

But, with all that, my thought process is still that the metal crimp is never going to change shape or flexibility... But that plastic is going to take the shape of that ring at some point in time and lose that compression. Will they blow off at fittings just like the poly? I do not know but I have no confidence that they will last. I just do not like the idea of major failure. At least with copper it usually slowly fails. With CPVC I do not know of any correctly installed PVC failures... so I have no reason not to trust CPVC being that they are both a fusion type joint. 

So the only two pipes on my projects are CPVC and Copper.


----------



## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

Craftsman Jay said:


> There's licensed hacks too!


you are 100% correct :thumbsup:


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

assets444 said:


> This is not meant to argue at all... just stating my opinion.
> 
> I can not base my dislike of pex on facts, only on past experiences. It was not long ago that we had major polybutylene failures ( I understand that the pipe and fittings are much better with pex). My plumber even went so far as to cap a water filled 3/4" foot long piece of pex.. brought it back to job site next morning frozen, it was swollen to what seemed double the size, and did not appear to be leaking. He then took the torch out and thawed it, and it was not leaking (I must admit, I was impressed).
> 
> ...


PEX has been around since the 1930's and the process has been improved every year since. I can understand your concern, it's just that it has never happened on record....at least how you explained it. Crimped fittings are on cars, trucks, trains, airplanes, space shuttle, boats, snowmobiles, etc etc.

Mike


----------



## MAD Renovations (Nov 18, 2007)

rex said:


> a pex manifold for potable water is a waste....


 
Just wondering Rex..... Why is this a waste? Please back up your opinion.


----------



## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

Tattoo said:


> Just wondering Rex..... Why is this a waste? Please back up your opinion.


 
just is why is it necessary to run way more pipe than needed....after all the time and wasted material youd be better off runnin copper...

cant run a circ line....and have to wait for hot water to each fixture

sure your gonna have way less joints ....

this is just my opinion

and yea ive done the systems for people that want them...altho id never push one


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

A manifold works nice when a house is on a slab or some multi-family rentals when the layout makes sense to do so. I don't run a lot of pex but most of the pex I've ran hat used fittings and no manifolds.

Mike


----------



## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> A manifold works nice when a house is on a slab or some multi-family rentals when the layout makes sense to do so. Mike


true....


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

@ Rex

What's funny, It's been a long time since I picked up and read my code book but from what I recall the water sizing charts and formulas don't really apply well when using a manifold. In fact, the last manifold I did was about 10 years ago on 8- 3 family condos that I did one after the other. The inspector (and myself) had a hell of a time working the numbers for friction loss. If I remember correctly we guessed because like I said- the charts didn't apply. That might have changed but my code book is a little out of date:laughing:

Actually, now that I think about it, I think I got away from manifolds because of this. That may sound goofy but I have a software program that does water calcs for me and manifolds are NOT in it either. I'm sure there is a way but since I don't do much pex with my service business I just avoid it.:laughing:

Mike


----------



## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't know beans about plumbing, but I can run pvc and pex any day of the week and make it work. Sweat a joint and it looks like silver coated pretzel sticks. :w00t:

I don't do any plumbing at all, but my house is ten years old and pex is working just fine. High Sulfur in this area, it can kill a refrigerator coil in less than a year if the house is not treated. Attacks all appliances and copper reacts to create noddle like pipes. 

Smells like roten eggs right out of the ground. It is naturally soft though. Copper and galvanized and basically all other metals went out of style around here in the 60's.


----------



## one man show (Dec 20, 2010)

Cakifornia has changed opinions over pex more often than u can flip a light switch. mostly over objections from the plumbers and pipefitters union. money talks and bull**** walks


----------



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

....


----------



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> The customer decides what product to use based on financial matters.
> 
> On the PEX question; Can anybody provide actual fact based reasons why PEX is bad? I'd like to hear from actual plumbers but I'll settle for a carpenter if that's what it takes. Please provide facts.:thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Copper ions are potent bactericide. When copper corrodes, the products go right into the water it is carrying and it isn't exactly good for you, nor is it good for the environment.
http://www.sanjoseca.gov/esd/PDFs/cu_installers_05_03.pdf

Fact:
PEX is impervious to almost everything. It is not attacked by concentrated hydrofluoric acid which attacks glass.



Craftsman Jay said:


> There's licensed hacks too!


They're like licensed drunk drivers or cell phone road warriors.


----------



## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

:whistling



angus242 said:


> Probably political/*union influence*. Honestly, I have no idea why.


----------



## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

No, it makes him a carpenter who connect pipes together, not a plumber.

Does being able to strip cables and twist on wire nuts make one an electrician?



rex said:


> thing with PEX is it makes every guy who calls them self a carpenter a plumber too....


----------



## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

Propress compresses the o-ring where a SB fitting does not. That said, I don't use the stuff. Why go to copper if you are going to have o-rings. Might as well go with pex then.



tccoggs said:


> I hear that from alot of the same plumbers that use propress:whistling
> 
> In my eyes there is no difference outside of the fact that you need an $2000 tool to crimp propress and that puts its out of reach of the average DIY/Carpenter type.
> 
> ...


----------



## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

So does VCT, carpet, wire insulation, plastic receptacle covers, most of the home owners contents, etc etc



KillerToiletSpider said:


> For the same reason romex isn't code approved, it burns.


----------



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Was it really necessary to make four separate posts instead of posting them all in one?


----------



## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

High chlorine hurts it and so does sunlight.

That said, it's pretty tough stuff.




Electric_Light said:


> Copper ions are potent bactericide. When copper corrodes, the products go right into the water it is carrying and it isn't exactly good for you, nor is it good for the environment.
> http://www.sanjoseca.gov/esd/PDFs/cu_installers_05_03.pdf
> 
> Fact:
> PEX is impervious to almost everything. It is not attacked by concentrated hydrofluoric acid which attacks glass.


----------



## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

Extra work, I don't know how to combine quotes. If any mode cares to do so that would be fine by me.



Electric_Light said:


> Was it really necessary to make four separate posts instead of posting them all in one?


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

protechplumbing said:


> Extra work, I don't know how to combine quotes. If any mode cares to do so that would be fine by me.


In each post you want to quote, click the







icon. Then you click







like you normally would. All posts will be quoted for you.

:thumbsup:


----------



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

protechplumbing said:


> Extra work, I don't know how to combine quotes.


Is that the way you approach your projects too? :blink:

Does this seem out of sequence? If indeed, so does top posting. 
A. I'm fine.

Q. Hi How are you?


----------



## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

protechplumbing said:


> No, it makes him a carpenter who connect pipes together, not a plumber.
> 
> Does being able to strip cables and twist on wire nuts make one an electrician?


it was my attempt at an analogy and a pretty good one i think....:shutup:


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

protechplumbing said:


> So does VCT, carpet, wire insulation, plastic receptacle covers, most of the home owners contents, etc etc



The wire is inside metal conduit, and the rest of those items are not installed inside stud walls.


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

jkfox624 said:


> Pipe fitting can be an art. Nothing i love seeing more than a finely done copper job. *Seems every pex job i see looks like hell*.


 Opinions vary, but I don't find it offensive.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

That looks like something that should be hooked up to a mother lode of kegs.


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> That looks like something that should be hooked up to a mother lode of kegs.


 Beer kegs or powder kegs?:laughing:


----------



## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

What do you guys use for vacuum lines and pipe insulation?



KillerToiletSpider said:


> The wire is inside metal conduit, and the rest of those items are not installed inside stud walls.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

loneframer said:


> Opinions vary, but I don't find it offensive.


C'mon junior buy yourself a P-Touch or a Rhino Pro and give up the duct tape + Sharpie labeling system. :laughing:


...Pipe looks good though. :thumbsup:


----------



## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> The customer decides what product to use based on financial matters.
> 
> On the PEX question; Can anybody provide actual fact based reasons why PEX is bad? I'd like to hear from actual plumbers but I'll settle for a carpenter if that's what it takes. Please provide facts.:thumbsup:
> 
> ...


I have no problem with using pex, like anything, installation is key. But one reason to avoid it, because you asked, is from the owners perspective. The potential for blowouts can lead to catastrophic damage and delays.

My experiences with PEX used in new condo applications was that when a joint was installed improperly, it would blow and the full volume would create a huge amount of water damage. In a few instances, this happened late in the afternoon and not noticed until the next morning. Multiple floors ruined, causing water and mold issues....not to mention delays for the reinstatement.

Whereas if it had been a poorly installed copper joint it would likely just drip away until noticed, the damage being less severe.

So it's a risk mitigation, or insurance if you may against huge delays and cost implications caused by improper pex installation.

Just my 2 cents


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> C'mon junior buy yourself a P-Touch or a Rhino Pro and give up the duct tape + Sharpie labeling system. :laughing:
> 
> 
> ...Pipe looks good though. :thumbsup:


Yo, those labels were temps, until the HO made his own labels. The labels are not my handiwork anyway. :thumbsup:


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

protechplumbing said:


> What do you guys use for vacuum lines and pipe insulation?


We use copper for vacuum, and flame retardant Fiberglas pipe insulation.


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

loneframer said:


> I remember when guys were bitching about plastic waste lines as well. No way a glued fitting is better than lead and oakum....



It isn't.

There are plenty of one hundred year old buildings that are still using the original cast iron waste and vent stacks, but you will never see a plastic waste and vent stack last that long, the material itself is self destructive due to the expansion and contraction properties.


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> It isn't.
> 
> There are plenty of one hundred year old buildings that are still using the original cast iron waste and vent stacks, but you will never see a plastic waste and vent stack last that long, the material itself is self destructive due to the expansion and contraction properties.


 That may be true, yet, for the most part, cast iron has gone by the wayside. Forget the lead and oakum, even with the simplicity of no-hubs.

There are many factors that define "better".

In todays world, price and speed of installation have a direct bearing on whether or not you can be profitable. Anything that lowers cost, while maintaining satisfactory results is considered "better" by most, including me. The majority of the population can't afford to install luxuries in their mechanical systems, or any other building component for that matter.

When OSB hit the market, it was shunned by all but the most frugal of builders, yet, over time, it has become more and more accepted and in my opinion, superior on many counts than plywood.

Times change, accepted norms change and for better or worse, we must change with them.:thumbsup:


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> It isn't.
> 
> There are plenty of one hundred year old buildings that are still using the original cast iron waste and vent stacks, but you will never see a plastic waste and vent stack last that long, the material itself is self destructive due to the expansion and contraction properties.


This is totally unfounded information not based on any facts whatsoever.

First off PVC hasn't been used in homes for a hundred years yet. I have done hundreds of service calls on CI failing. Ask all the HO's that I vist a few times a year to cut out roots from the sewer lines if they would like PVC. Ask all the HO's that I charge thousands of dollars to rip out the CI that's half that age because it's collapsing.

PVC pipe has been a blessing to not just plumbers but to HO's as well. CI has many good merits but it falls short when compared to the merits of PVC.

Mike


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

ubenhad4 said:


> Crazy how many areas dont use pex. I havent seen a copper run house in over 10 years. The only copper is the wall stubs for toilet and sinks, and sometimes there pex to. I think the stuff is gold.


I'm plumbing a big mansion in copper right now because the HO requested it. I'm making a ton of money from it because of all the extra labor he is paying for. I like both because I can make any customer from any walk of life happy.:thumbsup:


Mike


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

loneframer said:


> Anything that lowers cost, while maintaining satisfactory results is considered "better" by most, including me.


Only thing is, somewhere along the line "satisfactory" got a new meaning. I really doubt that the majority of new houses I see being built today are going to last 100 years. At least not without a lot of surgical intervention over that time.


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

What I really hate is the fact that I have to own a big massive truck to carry all the fittings from every type of material. It's a PIA, I would love to just have one type, at one point I had 3 different type of pex crimping tools.:laughing:

Now throw in ProPress and I have to be fully stocked with 7 different piping systems.

Crazy in it's own right.

Mike


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> Only thing is, somewhere along the line "satisfactory" got a new meaning. I really doubt that the majority of new houses I see being built today are going to last 100 years. At least not without a lot of surgical intervention over that time.


And when the surgical intervention happens PEX will be a whole lot easier and cheaper to replace.

Mike


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

True. But my gut tells me (without bothering with things like facts) that barring nasty water, copper pipes will last longer than Pex.


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Only thing is, somewhere along the line "satisfactory" got a new meaning. I really doubt that the majority of new houses I see being built today are going to last 100 years. At least not without a lot of surgical intervention over that time.


 You can blame insulation for most of that debacle, assuming the structure is properly engineered and assembled.
Use todays building practices, minus insulation and most issues with failing structures would be eliminated, IMO.

Ventilation and "breathability" is the key to avoiding most of the problems associated with moisture in todays homes. Insulation is ventilations arch enemy.


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

loneframer said:


> That may be true, yet, for the most part, cast iron has gone by the wayside. Forget the lead and oakum, even with the simplicity of no-hubs.



We still install hub and spigot cast iron with lead joints in Chicago, no hub is not code approved.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

loneframer said:


> Ventilation and "breathability" is the key to avoiding most of the problems associated with moisture in todays homes. Insulation is ventilations arch enemy.


Preaching to the choir. :thumbsup:


----------



## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> And when the surgical intervention happens PEX will be a whole lot easier and cheaper to replace.
> 
> Mike


This to me is the problem with Pex and a few construction materials and processes. 

When we build or remodel it is suppose to last, I don't want to build and think that when something goes wrong, it will be easier to fix..

If I am worrying about fixing or repairing it down the road, then it should not have been installed in the first place.


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> True. But my gut tells me (without bothering with things like facts) that barring nasty water, copper pipes will last longer than Pex.


 Assuming the installer reamed the pipe, didn't over flux, wiped the joint, didn't flare the cut by overtightening the tubing cutter, cleaned the mating surfaces....


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

rbsremodeling said:


> This to me is the problem with Pex and a few construction materials and processes.
> 
> When we build or remodel it is suppose to last, I don't want to build and think that when something goes wrong, it will be easier to fix..
> 
> If I am worrying about fixing or repairing it down the road, then it should not have been installed in the first place.


Plumbing will never be the reason a house is torn down.

BUT, plastic has one big advantage in this department. For the last few years that's all I hear college kids, teachers, and activists complain about is how plastic in the landfills lasts 1,000,000 years. 

If that's true what about a product that's meant to last, designed to last? PEX that's installed today will be alive and kicking many times longer than any house is good for.

Like I said, crappy construction standards is never a water supply line to a fixture.:laughing: Consumers want cheap they get cheap, they want the best they get the best.....both parties have to pay for what they want.

Many multi-million dollar homes prefer PEX, it's just a fact. 

Mike


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

loneframer said:


> Assuming the installer reamed the pipe, didn't over flux, wiped the joint, didn't flare the cut by overtightening the tubing cutter, cleaned the mating surfaces....


AND...assuming it's sized right because if it's not copper will not last.

Mike


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

This thread has almost reached borderline stupid.:laughing:


----------



## mehtwo (Nov 14, 2010)

This thread could easily reach 250 posts. :whistling:


----------



## assocplumbers (Apr 15, 2009)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> In IL what they are doing is against the law unless it is in their own house.


 
It is the same here in Arkansas and it has to be their main residence not rent property.


----------



## assocplumbers (Apr 15, 2009)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Tell the customer that the product is not code approved in northern IL and if they want it installed they have to pull their own permit and install it themselves.


We have walked away from many jobs that the client wanted PEX installed.

PEX maybe a superior product, but I am still not convinced and don't tell me it has been being used in Europe for 20 or 30 years. Poly also had a proven track record overseas, but look at teh mess it got us into over here.

So NO thank you, we will be installing copper or we won't do the job.


----------



## assocplumbers (Apr 15, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> Copper ions are potent bactericide. When copper corrodes, the products go right into the water it is carrying and it isn't exactly good for you, nor is it good for the environment.
> http://www.sanjoseca.gov/esd/PDFs/cu_installers_05_03.pdf
> 
> Fact:
> PEX is impervious to almost everything. It is not attacked by concentrated hydrofluoric acid which attacks glass.


Just a few things Pex is not impervious to

Do not spray on or allow organic chemicals, pesticides, strong acids or
strong bases to come into contact with Uponor PEX.
• Do not use petroleum or solvent-based paints on Uponor PEX.
• Use only approved and appropriate firestop materials with Uponor PEX.
• Do not allow rodents, insects or other pests to come into contact with
Uponor PEX tubing.​• Do not subject Uponor


----------



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

In CA, leaded brass is prohibited in many applications. 
We no longer use PCBs in ballasts, hydraulic fluids or plasticizers. 
We no longer use DDT as general purpose pesticide.
We no longer use CFC refrigerants in new systems.

PVCs and CPVCs produce highly toxic ashes full of dioxins. No matter how you process them, the byproducts contain chlorine and usually in toxic organic form. California outlawed chlorinated solvents(for example, methylene chloride and chloroform) for general purpose products end of last year. They're also highly restricted in many European countries. With an exception of methyl chloroform(which destroys ozone layer) chlorinated solvents are harmful to our health and the environment. 

I think chlorinated plastics are next on that list. 
PEX doesn't produce any dioxins or phosgene, because it doesn't contain chlorine, so when chlorinated plastics are phased out due to toxic fire byproducts and environmental concerns, I think PEX will take their place.


----------



## 3 Ts Plumbing (Jan 25, 2011)

I use pex in almost all of the new homes i plumb. A few simple details and pex is very reliable!! There are pex bulletins about solvents(flux,glue,primer) will void the warranty on their products. Always be sure that your crimped connections are not crooked. Make sure your crimper is square with your fiitting before crimping or you will have a gap on one side of your crimp. Air test always and everything and you will have no worries. I have plumbed hundreds of homes with pex and copper and i can count on one hand the times i have cut drywall to repair a leaky supply line. Make sure you cut the pex square. Make sure the pipe is on the fitting all the way. And depending on your crimp system, proper placement of your crimp ring. :thumbsup:


----------



## Mega Plumbing (Jan 27, 2011)

Love the pex and have been using it for at least 6 years. No problems.3 - 4 bath houses, great stuff


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

It looks like we have a couple more plumbers on the forum here (3-T's and Mega). That's really cool, we need more plumbers here.:thumbsup:

Welcome to the forum 3-T's and Mega plumbing.

Mike


----------



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Mega Plumbing said:


> Love the pex and have been using it for at least 6 years. No problems.3 - 4 bath houses, great stuff


I believe organic fluids can slowly migrate through them. If the soil is contaminated from industrial activities or leaking oil tanks, it can supposedly permeate through PEX.


----------



## 3 Ts Plumbing (Jan 25, 2011)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> It looks like we have a couple more plumbers on the forum here (3-T's and Mega). That's really cool, we need more plumbers here.:thumbsup:
> 
> Welcome to the forum 3-T's and Mega plumbing.
> 
> Mike


Thank you, this sight is very cool! Nice to be able to put great minds together and learn from orhers


----------



## carlspackler (Feb 20, 2006)

In my part of California, homeowners are not allowed to install PEX. They need to hire a licensed PEX installer. Yet they can do anything else with plumbing. 

Seems odd to me in that PEX can be so simple a monkey could do it.


----------



## 3 Ts Plumbing (Jan 25, 2011)

carlspackler said:


> In my part of California, homeowners are not allowed to install PEX. They need to hire a licensed PEX installer. Yet they can do anything else with plumbing.
> 
> Seems odd to me in that PEX can be so simple a monkey could do it.


 yes ia agree!!pex can be done by a monkey. why is it that humans still manage to screw it up?


----------



## HallisseyDesign (Jul 6, 2007)

3 T said:


> yes ia agree!!pex can be done by a monkey. why is it that humans still manage to screw it up?


Are you saying donkeys are smarter then humans?!:thumbup:


----------



## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

And that's the only reason why. Your situation is an isolated pocket that stands in direct contrast to the rest of the united states.



KillerToiletSpider said:


> We still install hub and spigot cast iron with lead joints in Chicago, *no hub is not code approved*.


----------



## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

You can expect to to see the PVC DWV and any plastic conduit fail under the same conditions.



Electric_Light said:


> I believe organic fluids can slowly migrate through them. If the soil is contaminated from industrial activities or leaking oil tanks, it can supposedly permeate through PEX.


----------



## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

What do you guys use for paint stripper now?



Electric_Light said:


> In CA, leaded brass is prohibited in many applications.
> We no longer use PCBs in ballasts, hydraulic fluids or plasticizers.
> We no longer use DDT as general purpose pesticide.
> We no longer use CFC refrigerants in new systems.
> ...


----------



## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

And not subjected to corrosive water, and not installed in corrosive soils, and not stuck by lightening, and not subjected to electrolysis causing currents, and and and and..........



Mike's Plumbing said:


> AND...assuming it's sized right because if it's not copper will not last.
> 
> Mike


----------



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

protechplumbing said:


> You can expect to to see the PVC DWV and any plastic conduit fail under the same conditions.


This isn't the same risk. Its just like how you can't get pasta sauce out of plastic tupperware after washing. 

If the soil is contaminated with industrial chemicals, it won't damage the pipe or cause leaks. PEX is impervious to just about every chemical. 

The problem here is that plastics are usually lipophilic (meaning that it has better affinity for oil soluble substances) and over time, the chemicals can migrate into the pipe and leach into water through a process called permeation. 

Water permeates through most plastics too. Put some water in a tightly capped water bottle. Weight it and record. Do it again a month later. There is a noticeable decrease in weight. do the same with similarly capped glass bottle and you don't see it.




protechplumbing said:


> What do you guys use for paint stripper now?


Not sure. I believe NMP is pretty common. There is a chemical called GBL that is very effective and low toxic under normal use, but it metabolizes into GHB when swallowed and it's also just one step away from synthesizing GHB, so its not so available because of misappropriation risk.


----------

