# Crappy framers we are working behind...Is this the norm nowdays?



## oktex56 (Dec 30, 2011)

Hey y'all,

I have been helping out a friend hang vinyl siding this winter. (Because I can't do my type work when it's cold.)

We are on the 6th house for an outfit building in an upper middle class neighborhood. Their MO is to buy homes for the lot, demolish them and build new. 

I framed for quite a few years when I was young. When we framed, we took our time to square up our exterior walls..."X" them with a 100' tape, etc. 

Took 10 minutes and we checked our progress as we went up for square, level, plumb, etc...We used a string line for sub-fascia and made SURE it was straight. 

IOW, we stood back when we were finished and went home with a sense of satisfaction that our work was right. We stick framed and our roofs were cut by us, not trussed. 

I learned early on that doing it right was WAY faster than others building next to us on the same plan and slapping things together.

I like the new (to me) way of doing things with trusses...I get it, it's fast and probably stronger.

Now to my gripes. Every single home we have done for this outfit has huge issues of things being out of square. 

We have seen 3/4" commonly and as much as 1 1/2"!!! 

The builder seems non plussed about it and we end up cutting long shims on gutter boards etc, to "fix" their excuse for proper work.

This crap just rubs this cat the wrong way!

I mean really, how much extra effort is it really to just take a few minutes to do the job right?

Ok it's off my chest and now I feel a little bit better.:laughing:


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

We finished framing a house about a month back. I was the 4th contractor framing that house. It scored us the developers next build (breaking ground in Aug) but unfortunately what you described the norm now a days. 

I really don't see how trusses are stronger. They cost more for sure, and not a whole lot faster. I try to use rafters as much as possible. Bit I don't have a boom to lift trusses, so I have to rent at 950 a week. Plus the pressure plates that hold trusses together peel off if there is ever a fire. Collapsing the roof. That's why all these new houses are getting bulldozed when they light up. 

The fire departments around here are trying to put together a database of the houses that are truss build, and they won't go in if they are.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

the sloppy framing is due to a combination of things.. guys not being taught to frame the right way so they think their doing things right even if its absolute mess or.. they do know what their doing but industry is so cut throat in their region that they cant afford to spend any amount of time on doing things properly so the work suffers.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

If a fire is damaging the trusses to the point of failure, you can be assured no one should be inside. Yes, they will burn through faster, but.......is it an issue? Nope. 

We use trusses on nearly every build now, because they are faster, and they allow us to "capture" a lot of wasted space with attic rooms, or second floor living this isn't possible in stick framing without major expenses. 

Yeah, I like trusses, and we take a telehandler out with us....almost standard on job sites now. I am buying a hydraulic winch to mount on the boom, so doing the bigger spans won't be such a pain.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm not talking about the cords on the trusses burning. I'm talking about the strong ties that hold them together. It takes about 5 mins after fire touches them before you hear them start shooting off. I'm guessing you've never been in a burning house.


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## TimberlineMD (Jan 15, 2008)

Interesting read.. http://www.npr.org/2013/04/10/176677299/construction-booming-in-texas-but-many-workers-pay-dearly

Hits a nerve with me. Kind of shows where the trades are going. At least that's what I've seen in my 30+ years of doing this.


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## Bjackson3 (Jun 18, 2010)

Around here all of the neighborhoods with trussed roofs have a red triangle with a "T" inside of it at the entrance. Local fire fighter told me they wont even go into those houses to try and put out a fire once it reaches the attic. I'll take a traditionally framed roof any day.


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## ccnailer (Aug 21, 2012)

It is true that the bar is being lowered in the carpenter trade. Framers today are not carpenters, they are just nailers (they nail boards together, square/level/plumb or not)! It is due to several things, but mainly the highly competitive field of residential builders which keeps the cost so low that contractors can't spend the money needed to teach these framers some good carpenter skills.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

jlsconstruction said:


> I'm not talking about the cords on the trusses burning. I'm talking about the strong ties that hold them together. It takes about 5 mins after fire touches them before you hear them start shooting off. I'm guessing you've never been in a burning house.


You would be 100% correct, and I don't plan on going in one. :thumbsup:

A quick look at the data: http://www.sbcindustry.com/images/publication_images/firebro.pdf

Read the full page for claims and facts. Pretty interesting. 

I really like the fire chief saying defining the enemies of a fire department or the personnel. Maybe, we should work on not having fires? :whistling


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Unfortunately fires will always happen. And we don't build houses to be fire proof, but if we can build them to give who ever is in side another min before the roof collapses, we should.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

pretty much the norm for poor workmanship in framing. You need to start back charging the builder for fixing things that are not really your job. I don't mind a few small things to fix , but it gets pretty bad at times. rarely find the bird boxes done right and square. and it is bad when you look up the gable end and there is 1 1/2 crown. Little hard when putting metal on that to make it look right.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Little eye candy for the framers who do care!


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

If trusses are so bad, what about TGI's? They are using them for floors and rafters. Those puppy's light off in a hurry and then fall apart.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> If trusses are so bad, what about TGI's? They are using them for floors and rafters. Those puppy's light off in a hurry and then fall apart.


Yeah and truss joists.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=/


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

jlsconstruction said:


> I'm not talking about the cords on the trusses burning. I'm talking about the strong ties that hold them together. It takes about 5 mins after fire touches them before you hear them start shooting off. I'm guessing you've never been in a burning house.



""Wood chars at a rate of 1/8" per 3minutes during free burning stage of a fire"". That's 70-80% of the holding strength of a gang nail, gone is less much less than five.


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

jlsconstruction said:


> Yeah and truss joists.



Oh come on. What could go wrong with 1000 sqft of contained area of truss joists?


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Texas Wax said:


> ""Wood chars at a rate of 1/8" per 3minutes during free burning stage of a fire"". That's 70-80% of the holding strength of a gang nail, gone is less much less than five.


Back before I became an emt I was s&r by the time we got to a structure fire, got my bottle on, and made entry you could hear them shooting above you. That was in the 8 to 15 min range from when we'd get toned out.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

jlsconstruction said:


> Plus the pressure plates that hold trusses together peel off if there is ever a fire. Collapsing the roof. That's why all these new houses are getting bulldozed when they light up.
> 
> The fire departments around here are trying to put together a database of the houses that are truss build, and they won't go in if they are.





jlsconstruction said:


> I'm not talking about the cords on the trusses burning. I'm talking about the strong ties that hold them together. It takes about 5 mins after fire touches them before you hear them start shooting off. I'm guessing you've never been in a burning house.


Very interesting. I didn't know that.

And I thought I knew everything.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Joasis said:


> We use trusses on nearly every build now, because they are faster, and they allow us to "capture" a lot of wasted space with attic rooms, or second floor living this isn't possible in stick framing without major expenses.


How are you getting *more* attic space using trusses?


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## SDel Prete (Jan 8, 2012)

A.T.C. said:


> How are you getting more attic space using trusses?


I too would like to know that as any home I've been in with trusses have basically NO room in the attic because of them


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

SDel Prete said:


> I too would like to know that as any home I've been in with trusses have basically NO room in the attic because of them


We did a house a few years ago that was virtually all trussed. Ended up with a third floor with 2100 sq ft using all attic trusses and girders. The engineering to use the dead space in stick framed homes can be ridiculous.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

How big was the house? 8000sqf?


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Warren said:


> Little eye candy for the framers who do care!


:thumbsup: some of you guys amaze me, nice work.


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

Randy Bush said:


> pretty much the norm for poor workmanship in framing. You need to start back charging the builder for fixing things that are not really your job. I don't mind a few small things to fix , but it gets pretty bad at times. rarely find the bird boxes done right and square. and it is bad when you look up the gable end and there is 1 1/2 crown. Little hard when putting metal on that to make it look right.


I agree with this 100%. Don't build a home that will fail early, be it from a fire or from the environment. Build it strong and durable and it will with-stand nature. The way I see it, almost all new homes are built for failure. There is no thought put into how to properly shed water, bear weight, resist insects (and not only through the use of chemicals or composites).

You see it all the time, wood installed too low to ground causing it to rot. No or improper flashing details, valleys in roofs that do nothing but create another place for water to dam up and leak, improper grading causing water to run towards the home. Homes built on land that requires them to rely on mechanical pumps to keep basements dry and sewage pumped out to the sewer. Homes sealed so tight that you need to install mechanical systems to pump in make up air. All systems that will fail. 

Yeah, tech is great and allows us to do things we couldn't do before, but it doesn't mean we should.


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## oktex56 (Dec 30, 2011)

Engineering can be done by AutoCad beforehand and can be done easier than onsite for attic rooms as I have seen a couple and was intrigued how easy it was to just set and go.

As far as fire rating, suprized that local codes allow the fastening systems used because they are so crappy when exposed to fire. Could adding fire code 5/8" sheetrock equalize or offset this issue?

Btw, the builder is buying these older homes for the lots at an avg. of 250k, has demo costs and his 2 story boxes with a few exterior accents like vinyl shake or stone accents for pillars out front selling for 700k. My point is that there should be good enough margin for proper framing. Besides...it's faster and easier (less costly to do it right.)

The TX post on thiefs who are causing so much grief is truly a sad deal. I am sure we have all run across such pos in our time. We used to take care of them in our own way back in the day...all I'm sayin bout that:whistling


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

jlsconstruction said:


> Back before I became an emt I was s&r by the time we got to a structure fire, got my bottle on, and made entry you could hear them shooting above you. That was in the 8 to 15 min range from when we'd get toned out.


LOL Went from S&R to being an EMT, then to construction, :whistling thought S&R or Truck was the place to be forever :whistling

I was swinging the hammer when I went through fire school & State Certification, late 80's.... the charring rate figure (forever etched in my memory) was problematic and a bit ironic considering all the trussed I was setting. Though we never had a new/er home go up, I just understood the physics...same applied to TJI's while a little better 1/8" every three minutes and the webbing is halved and strength then? Probably not much better.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Texas Wax said:


> LOL Went from S&R to being an EMT, then to construction, :whistling thought S&R or Truck was the place to be forever :whistling
> 
> I was swinging the hammer when I went through fire school & State Certification, late 80's.... the charring rate figure (forever etched in my memory) was problematic and a bit ironic considering all the trussed I was setting. Though we never had a new/er home go up, I just understood the physics...same applied to TJI's while a little better 1/8" every three minutes and the webbing is halved and strength then? Probably not much better.


I still am an emt. Life changed after my daughter was born, it was a compromise between me and the wife to go emt.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

oktex56 said:


> We have seen 3/4" commonly and as much as 1 1/2"!!!
> 
> The builder seems non plussed about it and we end up cutting long shims on gutter boards etc, to "fix" their excuse for proper work.



You cant be doing that on a new house. The framer has there chance. They end up with all kinds of extra money and you get screwed because you are finishing their work. If the builder complains that your work looks bad be friendly and explain to them what is going on.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

This was one from last summer, we assisted.


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## Mellissam (Oct 27, 2009)

Geesh, that one got hallowed out. Would have been nice to have a pic of the interior. Fascinating to see how the roof deck went...so quick, the eaves at end gables were still there for a bit.


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## Jackpine Savage (Dec 27, 2010)

oktex56 said:


> Hey y'all,
> 
> I have been helping out a friend hang vinyl siding this winter. (Because I can't do my type work when it's cold.)
> 
> ...


What gets me is that they only think they are going fast when they slap sh*t up like that. For example, if you don't take the 10 minutes to square up a wall, you'll lose those ten minutes just screwing around with sheathing, not to mention the rockers, cabinet installers, door hangers, whoever. I was taught that you build plumb level and square not just because it yields the best results but that it makes your life easier down the road.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Mellissam said:


> Geesh, that one got hallowed out. Would have been nice to have a pic of the interior. Fascinating to see how the roof deck went...so quick, the eaves at end gables were still there for a bit.


I'll see if anyone has pic


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## CanningCustom (Nov 4, 2007)

I am pretty sure there are a few framers on here that would be considered "carpenters". But hey thanks for throwing us all on the hack and slash list.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

CanningCustom said:


> I am pretty sure there are a few framers on here that would be considered "carpenters". But hey thanks for throwing us all on the hack and slash list.


If you ask me,the builders are the problem. Personally I don't do production framing so I am able to spend time to do it right. I do know several guys that work for Tract builders. The going rate is so low that they need to slap these in.

If the builders would pay 10% more and demand quality the end result would be much better


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

don't be bad mouthin framers. 

I can't do every friggin house


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## Mavis Leonard (Mar 13, 2013)

TBFGhost said:


> I agree with this 100%. Don't build a home that will fail early, be it from a fire or from the environment. Build it strong and durable and it will with-stand nature. The way I see it, almost all new homes are built for failure. There is no thought put into how to properly shed water, bear weight, resist insects (and not only through the use of chemicals or composites).
> 
> You see it all the time, wood installed too low to ground causing it to rot. No or improper flashing details, valleys in roofs that do nothing but create another place for water to dam up and leak, improper grading causing water to run towards the home. Homes built on land that requires them to rely on mechanical pumps to keep basements dry and sewage pumped out to the sewer. Homes sealed so tight that you need to install mechanical systems to pump in make up air. All systems that will fail.
> 
> Yeah, tech is great and allows us to do things we couldn't do before, but it doesn't mean we should.





thoutful post i see atrocities commited befor vinal sidnin go up tht would amk a mrin puke no flaskin round windows doors nothin juss cheep housewrop no adesive flshin i even see vinal put over bare osb sometime retards


see garages built wit slab rite at grde 8inch min no they mabe 1 inch above grad lowess prt of yard dildo


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## Mavis Leonard (Mar 13, 2013)

jlsconstruction said:


> This was one from last summer, we assisted.
> 
> View attachment 90228
> 
> ...





got any marshmallows


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## oktex56 (Dec 30, 2011)

Not throwing anyone under the bus guys except the hacks I am currently working behind...I am crying/bitchin bout this to people I respect that take the time to do things right.

At least I learned something about truss systems and their lack of fire rating.

I have no idea what the rate the framers are getting but in my experience, if they build it square and plumb, they will build it faster.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

jlsconstruction said:


> This was one from last summer, we assisted.
> 
> View attachment 90228
> 
> ...


Those pictures are unreal, gotta feel for them though. :sad:


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

FramingPro said:


> Those pictures are unreal, gotta feel for them though. :sad:


They had to restrain the people because they were trying to go back in to get belongings. You can see a grandfather clock and a piano in the yard. A lot of the fires we go to we have to truck water in. This is the problem when we have to go 5 miles round trip to the nearest hydrant. We drained a near by pond and a neighbors pool.


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## finishlinewood (Oct 20, 2012)

try following a house framed by the Amish...........I don't think they know what square is,nor how to use a level. I would`nt let any Amish crew frame a dog house,they are that bad


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Quality.... both materials and application are clearly eroding.... so are ethics in politics and wall street... sign of our times

BUT, I'm sure all of you are faced with cost/conscious, quality/ignorent
customers.... Whadda ya to do...

You try to explain the honest tradeoff of cost/quality/speed, but most(at least alot) don't care what's behind the DW.

Then the other side of the coin, it seems our codes sometimes are self perpetuating bueracracies that have to continually find some minuta that might add a miniscule safety factor... regardless of cost in material or labor. Drive up the cost there, and you have to trim where you can.

Ever think about it, our code writting people would not have a job unless they keep adding things to our code. I'm for safe, but do believe their is a balance/tradeoff of cost and degree of safety.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

By the way.... how many of you have to price by piecework... alot of quality control , both incentive and oversight, is lost when you have to contract piecework vs TM.


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## on_the_level (Apr 27, 2011)

How often are the original culprits called to return to fix the mistakes? Most of the production tract work I've seen the builder just keeps pushing on to the next trade. Too much time lost to bring the original back in to fix it right= too much money. After all, "caulk and putty, they are your buddy!" It's ashame because all the good framers get whined about that they are too high in price, when in reality, good finishing begins with good framing. But at the end of the day, most homeowners are uneducated and impressed with shiny granite and appliances. Ever walk though production tract homes 2-3 years later, let alone 5 yrs? Ouch!!!!! Any ideas how to hangs this mindset in our "throw away" "build a new one" mindset?


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Jackpine Savage said:


> What gets me is that they only think they are going fast when they slap sh*t up like that. For example, if you don't take the 10 minutes to square up a wall, you'll lose those ten minutes just screwing around with sheathing, not to mention the rockers, cabinet installers, door hangers, whoever. I was taught that you build plumb level and square not just because it yields the best results but that it makes your life easier down the road.


They probably don't know how to do it. Several times I've had a guy hold one end of the tape, then after I check each corner once they think I'm done. I have to explain we got to check it three times, the diagonals have to be the same. Lead carpenters will make the mistake of having a rookie check the diagonals and then messing up the wall. I've made that mistake before too giving a new guy the responsibility.


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## oktex56 (Dec 30, 2011)

Here is one example of what I have to work with. 

Now really, add 6"??? Sure it's going to get covered but come on guys! 

Sistered and braced I could sort of live with...

Forgive the fingers... Trying to shield the sun.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

oktex56 said:


> Here is one example of what I have to work with.
> 
> Now really, add 6"??? Sure it's going to get covered but come on guys!
> 
> ...


That is better then I get sometime. They will just flat leave a piece out or cut to short.:whistling


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

oktex56 said:


> Here is one example of what I have to work with.
> 
> Now really, add 6"??? Sure it's going to get covered but come on guys!
> 
> ...


The drip edge to :no:
And the shingles aren't cut just straight :no:


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