# Kitec attached directly to copper pipe? No fittings



## A.D. Const (Jul 14, 2006)

New home in Maplewood. The plumber used Pex-Al-Pex (composite). What I found strange is that he did not used any fittings (pex fittings I mean) he used regular copper fittings instead. He sweated small nipples (about 1.5 t0 2 inch) to each side of the elbow, then he slided the XPA over the pipe and crimped it. Same with T's ect....

I was most surprised when the worked passed the plumbing inspection. I checked with IPEX and they only reccommend their fittings (plastic since the brass one are under litigation:shutup 

Has any of you ever tried this? I am concerned with long term since the entire home was piped this way, any of you professionals ever done this? 

Thanks


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

Got pictures?


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

I need to see some pictures, you can bet if it's not installed by manufactures specs they won't warranty there product.


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## A.D. Const (Jul 14, 2006)

I will post pictures ASAP,


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## Shipwreck (Dec 14, 2008)

I have used the kitec products but never tried slipping the tube over copper,i think the dimension won't allow the tube to slide over.Kitec makes in insert sweat fitting that you may be seeing.If you are that curious can't you cut the tube, look inside, then reconnect with shark bite?I personally liked the concept of the kitec with rubber o-rings it's a shame they are being sued.I also think that the plastic fittings were the answer to the problem,it is a shame there wasn't enough time to recover.Pex fittings are under my own personal scrutiny now. I spent a small chunk of money to use the kitec now I can't recoup the money.I am full of skepticism with the whole pex fitting industry,and am finding it hard to believe that one fitting is going to out do the other in the dezincification aspect.


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## A.D. Const (Jul 14, 2006)

Shipwreck said:


> I have used the kitec products but never tried slipping the tube over copper,i think the dimension won't allow the tube to slide over.Kitec makes in insert sweat fitting that you may be seeing.If you are that curious can't you cut the tube, look inside, then reconnect with shark bite?I personally liked the concept of the kitec with rubber o-rings it's a shame they are being sued.I also think that the plastic fittings were the answer to the problem,it is a shame there wasn't enough time to recover.Pex fittings are under my own personal scrutiny now. I spent a small chunk of money to use the kitec now I can't recoup the money.I am full of skepticism with the whole pex fitting industry,and am finding it hard to believe that one fitting is going to out do the other in the dezincification aspect.


Lets take a 3/4 pipe for example. Copper has an actual ID of 3/4" or (19mm) XPA has a (20mm) so it will slide over snuggly. Please note that XPA uses ID sizes just like copper as opposed to most PEX manufacturers that go with OD dimentions. I know for a fact that he connected to copper nipples not any Kitec fittings. Also, for that same reason I don't think you could use "sharkbite" with XPA. I have never tryed it so I won't be able to tell you for a fact. I'll try to stop by tomorrow th take pictures.


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## A.D. Const (Jul 14, 2006)

*Included are pictures requested they are grainy because they where shot with camera p*


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## A.D. Const (Jul 14, 2006)

I can't get a proper picture but you'll noticed that the ring is right on the copper pipe. It did pass the plumbing inspection, but has any of you guys ever done this? and if you have have you had problems with it after a while. I am concerned with the lack of the O rings, but then again not all fittings have O rings. Any input will be greatly appreciated.


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

I don't think it would pass here because the code states approved adapters must be used to join dissimilar types of pipes,but you never know.I guess if it's hard copper you should be ok,but I have seen plenty of soft in walls which would be a no-no to crimp.


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## Burby (Nov 25, 2008)

The easiest thing to do is go to your local building inspection office, ask to speak with the plumbing inspector for your job. Be polite & listen to him before disputing his reasoning. He may not have noticed the joints, (even though should have), but they have a lot of houses to inspect, typically. 
Regardless how well they intend or try to inspect, to an extent they do rely on the professional to do as should. 
But if questioned you will receive a proper response, if not, speak with the head inspector. If wrong they will contact the plumber, if accepted method, they will better explain to you. 
Besides, what did the plumber say who did the plumbing??


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## A.D. Const (Jul 14, 2006)

threaderman said:


> I don't think it would pass here because the code states approved adapters must be used to join dissimilar types of pipes,but you never know.I guess if it's hard copper you should be ok,but I have seen plenty of soft in walls which would be a no-no to crimp.


That's what I thought, but, it did pass inspection, at this point, well the job is done. However, should I be expecting call backs in 1-5 years in relations to this? Should I keep using the same Master plumber? This work was done prior to the litigation with Ipex, when I heard the situation with Ipex and the XPA line, I went back to the job site to see if it would affect me, thats when I noticed the fittings (being copper). The cass action suit does not include the pipe only the fittings. I am clear and to be honest somewhat relieved. My Plumber said that he saw it coming, thats why he did not used Ipex fittings nor he wanted to use plastic fittings as he does not like them for permanent instalations. He seems to be very good and so far I have no reason to doubt him, but this seems to be too recent for many to have actual real time experice with this product.

Besides what is legaly binding or "up to Code" I want to know that I delivered quality work, after all that is what my reputation is all about. I want to do the right thing and deliver the right product that's why I am here writing this post.


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## Burby (Nov 25, 2008)

A.D. Const said:


> Besides what is legaly binding or "up to Code" I want to know that I delivered quality work, after all that is what my reputation is all about. I want to do the right thing and deliver the right product that's why I am here writing this post.


Per Code it has to be recommended by the manufacturer, if not and allowed by you, you have the liability of it, along with your plumber. 
In court, (most states you can now drag in the local building inspectors into a law suit) Inspectors cannot be held liable to catch every detail of an inspection, that is the responsibility of the one licensed to perform the needed work. Code is the minimal building standard allowed, as you know. 
Call the manufacturer and speak with customer service, speak with the code inspector if you want to CYA. 
A few questions are far better now then to worry or worst yet, recieve that call you wish you had not picked up. 
You never know, they may accept it, if so you will have a letter in your files in the event that call does indeed come in. :thumbsup:
Your plumber's way may work great for 20 years, but if you have doubt a few simple calls can resolve it. 

One job I inspected after an outlet box had been moved to allow a staircase handrail to be installed. 
The Electrician did the work far faster than I believed it could have been completed in. I cut out the drywall patch he had a freind do for him to cover the whoe of the old box. 
With the drywall cut out, I discovered why he did the swap out so fast. He twisted the wires together, used automotive connectors & heat shrink tape for the wire extention needed. hahaha I called him and he assured me, this was an accepted method could do for leaving wires spliced together & burried in the walls. He went on to tell me the head inspector gave him a letter to the fact. 
Next day I had him meet me on site, along with the H/O & trim guy thee to install the handrail. 
Funny how he had lost the letter from the head inspector. Then once I went to call the inspector his story changed.. He was just trying to get it done to allow the trim guy to finish. 
I got a price form the trim guy to change his schedule, deducted that form the electrician's pay due, had him install the new box "per code" and this way I was covered, the H/O was safe, the trim guy was happy & I recieved a bonus for catching this. :thumbup:
Be sure, be safe.. Be happy. :thumbup:


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Thats messed up, no way would that be allowed here.


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## Shipwreck (Dec 14, 2008)

*kitec attached directly to copper pipe*

After looking at the posts and pictures I went back down to my basement where there is a roll of 1/2" and3/4" kitec,I reamed the end of the 3/4 and "AGAIN" the copper did not slide into the Kitec!!!!Those pictures do not show enough copper sticking out of the fitting to make that determination.It looks as though they could still be insert adapters.Whoever thinks all pex brands are the same dimensionally needs to consider if that was the case the fittings would all be universal.Compare uponor to kitec you will definitely see the difference.:thumbsup:


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## nhmaster3015 (Sep 6, 2008)

I can't fnd anything in either IPC or UPC that would not allow this with the exception of the rule about internal ledges and restrictions but these are present on the pex fitting not the copper swett ones.


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## A.D. Const (Jul 14, 2006)

Shipwreck said:


> After looking at the posts and pictures I went back down to my basement where there is a roll of 1/2" and3/4" kitec,I reamed the end of the 3/4 and "AGAIN" the copper did not slide into the Kitec!!!!Those pictures do not show enough copper sticking out of the fitting to make that determination.It looks as though they could still be insert adapters.Whoever thinks all pex brands are the same dimensionally needs to consider if that was the case the fittings would all be universal.Compare uponor to kitec you will definitely see the difference.:thumbsup:


Either we are not talking about the same thing or maybe type of copper (m,L, or K) have different OD. Kitec XPA have an ID of .20 (3/4). If you slide over 3/4 type M copper nipple it will fit. All piping was done using the orange (hot) pipe. I don,t think it would matter though. The picture might not show it but I saw the guy do it my self, there is no question about this. Additionally, what fitting would he used that slide inide the copper and without solder and if so he would need 2 adapter per elbow, why would anyone do that in any joint even less in the entire home.


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

I wouldn't have faith in the connection with-out a barbed fitting,hope the water pressure isn't that high in the home.I would have to question the guys installation practices,or maybe he was trying to save a trip to the supply house.Either way it's not good.Maybe the inspector didn't realize there were no barbed ends?


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## A.D. Const (Jul 14, 2006)

threaderman said:


> I wouldn't have faith in the connection with-out a barbed fitting,hope the water pressure isn't that high in the home.I would have to question the guys installation practices,or maybe he was trying to save a trip to the supply house.Either way it's not good.Maybe the inspector didn't realize there were no barbed ends?


Thanks threaderman, I was feelling the same way, I posted because I was curious to what others might say about it. This guy is no run by night contractor, he is really good at what he does and is very well know, I have used him for over 6 or 7 years and been very pleased so far. He has done very professional work for me. Even now I am relieved that this CA does not affect me. However, the method used seem questionable, but to date no reason not to use him.

Confused


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

Contact the manufacturers of the specific brand of pipe and see what they say is a good method of adapting to other types of pipe.They shouldn't be too hard to track down.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

A.D. Const said:


> Either we are not talking about the same thing or maybe type of copper (m,L, or K) have different OD. Kitec XPA have an ID of .20 (3/4). If you slide over 3/4 type M copper nipple it will fit. All piping was done using the orange (hot) pipe. I don,t think it would matter though. The picture might not show it but I saw the guy do it my self, there is no question about this. Additionally, what fitting would he used that slide inide the copper and without solder and if so he would need 2 adapter per elbow, why would anyone do that in any joint even less in the entire home.


 
disclaimer i am not a plumber. 

But if M, L, and K, copper tube had different OD wouldn't you need different batches of all the common copper fittings? I'm pretty sure its the ID that varies not the OD.


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