# Tile lippage - what's acceptable?



## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm finishing up a small bathroom job in a house where there is a separate contractor for a major kitchen expansion & redo.

I stopped by today and owner happened to come home early and asked me what I thought about the newly tiled kitchen floor. He was obviously not happy, and rightly so. Yikes. 12x24 tiles staggered 1/3 further for each adjacent row, and they had plenty of dips (low spots), not just one or two. Looked like hell. The tile sub was apparently "eye-balling" the spacing, too since the spacing was somewhat wavy to my eye (the waviness was not mentioned). Anyway, I told him that he can probably guess what I thought, but that I don't want to get in the middle of anything.

It got me thinking just how unlevel or "out of plane" actually calls for a tear-out and redo. I have a sense this one is not going to end well. They are going to try and patch, but how that can be done acceptably with large tiles is another matter. 

BTw, these are 12 x 24 porcelain big box store tiles with textured surface and moderately tumbled edges. Still...


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Usually the tile manufacturer will spec spacing as longer tiles will crown and can be tough setting flat in running bond pattern. If tiles are quality and you can check using a flat edge corner to corner on back of tile and see if there is space under flat edge in middle of tile then we set them 3/16 or 1/8th for rectified porcelain tiles which can be set closer.

I shot for a dime's thickness or 2 credit cards thickness for tile lippage. I always check the tiles before making suggestions on patterns. 

Floor also has to be dead nuts flat for longer tiles or set on high spot and bring rest of tiles up to it.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Run a credit card over it. 

Tbey love it when you do that


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

If they run a credit card on this floor, the other guy is in for a rough one. I sure glad I wasn't there during the install or they'd probably be mad at me for not saying anything.


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## [email protected] (Aug 9, 2011)

What kev said is right on. I lay alot of large format tiles and usually there is atleast one corner on each tile that dips. Sometimes the whole tile is convex. We use medium bed thinset and check each tile with a big twelve square. Any tiles that are too bad will be set aside for cuts or returns.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> I'm finishing up a small bathroom job in a house where there is a separate contractor for a major kitchen expansion & redo.
> 
> I stopped by today and owner happened to come home early and asked me what I thought about the newly tiled kitchen floor.


Should have hired me dumbarse.
Don't know you or your work, nor the other folks that did their work, but in my experience of human nature, when people separate their work to be done, they are on unsure ground to begin with...or just homeowner ripoff/cheap.

When I run into people that used other people and want my opinion, I've learned to be careful as most of the time, honesty sucks.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

If you want to card it, then it better not be any manmade stuff and set in mud. But for some reason, I think this isn't that type of quality ($) work.....


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

CO762 said:


> Should have hired me dumbarse.
> Don't know you or your work, nor the other folks that did their work, but in my experience of human nature, when people separate their work to be done, they are on unsure ground to begin with...or just homeowner ripoff/cheap.
> 
> When I run into people that used other people and want my opinion, I've learned to be careful as most of the time, honesty sucks.


My work is fine, if I do say so myself. 

The homeowner tried to do the bathroom DIY but ran into trouble (not as easy as on tv). And the kitchen and exterior were already way behind schedule so they called me instead. I had done work on the house prior to their purchase about a year ago.

You're right about "honesty". And there's nothing like getting quoted for someone else's dispute. No thanks! Over the years I've tried to "help out" a couple folks with a comment or two and it always was more trouble for me than useful for them since they don't use the info wisely..or do what they want anyhow.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

ZERO! But like others have said the tile will dictate lippage. All that we can do is pull out the really bad ones and mark the corners. I think a CC or dime is a great standard.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> You're right about "honesty".


Honesty is truly a virtue, but a lot of times for a variety of reasons, it's not favored and those few that are honest, are shunned.

If you are doing a part of a separate whole...and they ask you for your opinion, always don't bad mouth it as you have no idea what's going on.
Have I ever said I hate 90% of homeowners? :laughing: Don't waste your time, nor energy with that BS.

If ya want to make some serious, easy money, take any bet of sliding a DL/CC. But to be fair, that's a sucker's bet.

HO's most often want other input from another contractor in some way to cheap out their already whore'd out work.
Have I ever mentioned HO's are a PITA and rarely worth it?
Mebbe once or twice....


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

http://www.tuscanleveling.com

one way to address lippage issues


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

ArtisanRemod said:


> http://www.tuscanleveling.com
> 
> one way to address lippage issues


Not if the tile has a corner that drops. It will only move the lippage to that tile.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Not if the tile has a corner that drops. It will only move the lippage to that tile.


All the old/new cleavage shimming will do nothing but make that immediate area one short plane. But it has nothing to do with making a floor flat.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CO762 said:


> All the old/new cleavage shimming will do nothing but make that immediate area one short plane. But it has nothing to do with making a floor flat.


I have no idea what you just said. Sorry. All that I know is that no amount of shimming or the use of any leveling system will correct lippage from a defective tile.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

I think we said the same thing, but for bigger bets, I also mumbled something about a mudbed back there somewhere.
Man, both the eagle and redskins appear to not be too good this year.
Shanahan should be fired and whatever the coach/qb of the week for philly should be, well, banished to philadelpia.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

Where is it said that the tile is defective?


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## [email protected] (Aug 9, 2011)

ArtisanRemod said:


> Where is it said that the tile is defective?


Sounds to me like it was just a botched hurry job. Slap it on the floor and go. Probably wasn't priced right or installer isn't experienced with large tile work. I see it all the time in my neck of the woods. Guys working for next to nothing and putting out crappy work. Especially in new builds.


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

TCNA is 1/32" lippage for joints under 1/8" and 1/16" for joints 1/4"

Large format is to be installed at 1/3 length intervals to limit lippage because so much of this type of tile is convex. 

What was the floor like? If it is out of spec 1/4" in 10' than more lippage would occur to deal with the humps. 

The following is not advise to your problem only my rambling.

Last week I ran into a similar problem with 363sq/ft of wood plank porcelain, The Tile was bowed, the floor was out of spec, and they wanted tight joints. I made them go back to the showroom to reselect. After looking at all available in stock samples they said this was the only tile they wanted. Out came the Informed consent verbiage, we moved the set to random stack (works well with wood plank tile) and the joints to 3/16", schluter kerdi and 1/2" notch trowel.

I guess what I am saying is when your client insists you put finishes (tile is a finish) that you know will look less than optimum because of technical elements, we as professionals need to inform them beforehand of all Technical issues and solutions available. If they still want it, put this information in writing before any work is started and have them sign that they want to precede anyway. This way the finished product will inevitably look better than they now expect it to. They will appreciate your honesty and that you want only what is best for them.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> What kev said is right on. I lay alot of large format tiles and usually there is atleast one corner on each tile that dips. Sometimes the whole tile is convex. We use medium bed thinset and check each tile with a big twelve square. Any tiles that are too bad will be set aside for cuts or returns.





ArtisanRemod said:


> http://www.tuscanleveling.com
> 
> one way to address lippage issues





ArtisanRemod said:


> Where is it said that the tile is defective?


All lippage cannot be dealt with using a leveling system. For those that read the forum for educational purposes I just wanted to make it clear that spending $500 on a leveling system may not help in their situation. It was just an addition to your post not an argument against.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

I understood that you were referring to your earlier comment about defective tiles TNT. A leveling system will still give you a bit more control over crappy tiles and allow you to split the high and low spots so you can end up with two spots off by 1/16 rather than one spot off by 1/8. Why you would want that is beyond me but some people insist on crappy tile.

Charimon, any chance you could PM me your Informed Consent document? I have been meaning to add that to my binder to back up some change orders.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Sounds to me like it was just a botched hurry job. Slap it on the floor and go. Probably wasn't priced right or installer isn't experienced with large tile work. I see it all the time in my neck of the woods. Guys working for next to nothing and putting out crappy work. Especially in new builds.


A lazy job done in a hurry, which will end up taking more time after all. That's how it usually works for those hurry jobs. But the music was blasting when they got started, so I guess it was fun.


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## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

90% of the tile here is DIY. And they are soooo proud. And it's all I can do to keep from laughing.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

ArtisanRemod said:


> Where is it said that the tile is defective?


"large format these are 12 x 24 porcelain big box store tiles with textured surface and moderately tumbled edges. "

Then throw in dividing up work being done.......I'd say it's a pretty safe bet the tile sucked.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

charimon said:


> If they still want it, put this information in writing before any work is started and have them sign that they want to precede anyway.


Nice idea. I only had someone sign something before I did a job once and that stated I was only responsible for how my tile looked, the visual quality of the install and nothing else. (I set on someone elses substrate). I'd never do it again.

You're 100 percent right in informing them. I think the only way such a contract could be done is by T/M, as there's gotta be some pain on their end if they cause pain on your end.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

rusty baker said:


> 90% of the tile here is DIY. And they are soooo proud. And it's all I can do to keep from laughing.


Yet another reason why I avoid residential if I can. If you critique/comment on the work done, high probability it was done by them, their relative, or it was just the sh*tty work done, "builder quality", so their "dream house" is a lipsticked pig, tho usually an expensive one.

Reminds me of an old joke where the punch line was "That's nice".


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

EthanB said:


> I understood that you were referring to your earlier comment about defective tiles TNT. A leveling system will still give you a bit more control over crappy tiles and allow you to split the high and low spots so you can end up with two spots off by 1/16 rather than one spot off by 1/8. Why you would want that is beyond me but some people insist on crappy tile.
> 
> Charimon, any chance you could PM me your Informed Consent document? I have been meaning to add that to my binder to back up some change orders.


I would never use a tile that had a defect that caused a 1/8" lippage. So again, I cannot see spending $500 on a system that fixes a problem I would never have.

The most I would use would be a tile with a 1/16th defect. And I can easily correct that with mortar and a level. There just more control without a system that forces my hand into locking two tiles together, IMO.

Don't get me wrong. I have used leveling systems. They are great at giving you a nice even plane with flat format tiles. Just my opinion and YMMV.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I would never use a tile that had a defect that caused a 1/8" lippage. So again, I cannot see spending $500 on a system that fixes a problem I would never have.
> 
> The most I would use would be a tile with a 1/16th defect. And I can easily correct that with mortar and a level. There just more control without a system that forces my hand into locking two tiles together, IMO.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I have used leveling systems. They are great at giving you a nice even plane with flat format tiles. Just my opinion and YMMV.


Tnt...Mike....

A couple years ago I had a very bad bath floor... and I planed/"leveled"/flattended out as best I could... but it was still bad... and I was in 20X Lowes tile....

I tried a leveling clip system ( that was different than earlier in this thread).... but after about an hour of F'n with it... I just scrapped it....

went back to a thick bed...shims... and my straight edges....

*There must be some tricks to those leveling clips*... or else they only work when you already have a good subbase and good tile..... 

and then who needs them.......???


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