# limestone cap installation



## blockmanjohn (Jan 13, 2010)

I am going to install 2 inch thick limestone caps on an eight inch ribbed, concrete block wall. I was wondering what type of mortar is best for this purpose? I have had experience laying block, but none laying stone. Also, what consistency should I mix to? Very dry, or more toward a block mix? I got myself into this job as a favor to a friend and I would like to do it right. Thanks in advance, John.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

I assume your talking about fluted block when you say ribbed?


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## blockmanjohn (Jan 13, 2010)

I always called them ribbed, but fluted would be the same thing I think.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

What is the wall your capping? Retaining, knee wall, curtain or wing?


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## blockmanjohn (Jan 13, 2010)

It is a retaining wall averaging 4 feet high. Also, about 10 feet of it slope down from 4 feet to nothing. This may be another challenge.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Your using natural lime stone not pre-cast?


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I'd use type N with the constancy of a stiff block mix and you could also use composite buttons to support the cap if your bond beam is level. Or just use composite shims to keep the cap at level while the mortar sets up....then pull them and point up.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

We flash under all our caps and pin them. Yes we install weeps as well. Our best results occur when we dampen the surface of stone that comes in contact with the mortar. Lot less shrinkage cracks if the jointed exposed mortar look is the preference. Now a days we rake all mortar joints back 3/4" and use colored industrial caulk. I prefer the caulk especially if your not pinning/doweling the pieces makes them more durable from bumps and bangs.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

http://www.silpro.com/datasheets/Silpro_Weldobond.pdf

brush this on the back and lay with type n or s. I use brick mud as far as how stiff to make it. 

The caulking is a good idea as they are making some great products these days.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

I would use a the same mud you built the wall with, probably a type S. Modify it with some latex additive and mix it slightly stiffer than you would for the block, but still easy enough to spread.

Makes sure you get enough compression when you tap them in place, let the mud set up a bit, then cut and strike the joint similar to the way you would joint the block.

That should hold up just fine.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

This tech. note explains graphically the detail heavyc was describing and explains the nuances a bit further.



http://www.maconline.org/tech/design/masonrycapsandsills/masonrycapsandsills.html


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Yeah, caulking all the way for any joint that a bird will see

There are also latex(acrylic?) products that are meant for chinking log homes. With a little practise they are very easy to use, and have excellent expansion/contraction properties. They also are made to look similar to mortar which is nice and you can buy it in almost any colour.

http://www.permachink.com/


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## blockmanjohn (Jan 13, 2010)

Thanks for all the expert advice. I feel confident now that I can give my friend a good job. Thanks again, John.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

I'm curious about the caulk. On what types of stonework? I saw the link to PermaChink. Any other particular brands? Are these similar to the siliconized, color-matched tile caulks?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

First time i ever saw perma ***** in conjunction with masonry was on a bid package for a restoration on a 150 year old swing bridge, project was for Parks Canada. Like I said, any joint that a bird would see, they called them vertical joints, not to be confused with head joints. There are probably a dozen different manufacturers, but it's nothing like any grout I've ever seen but then again I've never seen any siliconized grout. It comes in a 20L/5 gal pail ($100 maybe $150 bucks here, probably 2./3ds that price in the US) and I use a grout bag to install, you let it set maybe 2-10 minutes depending on temps and humidity then tool with a wet steel tool. Extreely elastic and has excellent bonding qualities yet it also separates from the substrate well without damaging the substrate

FJN posted a link years ago to what was done in the past. Bitumen soaked Jute bags would be placed in the joints to within 1/2" or so of the face then mortar to finish. Mortar joints that birds can see have been a problem for a looooong time


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I use Polyurethane sealants for caps...Dymonic/Tremco, Sika, Vulkem, etc...


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## blockmanjohn (Jan 13, 2010)

I'm curious about the "Silpro" that one of the tech sheets mentions to prime the back of the stone and the top of the wall. Is this a good idea, and is this product the same as other latex bonding agents that are available at supply houses. "Weldcrete comes to mind. Also, nice clean work Superseal.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

I like Sika and the painters tape is a must to keep the job professional. The Sika SL is a dream to work, but as it is a SL it has obvious limitation per application.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

blockmanjohn said:


> I'm curious about the "Silpro" that one of the tech sheets mentions to prime the back of the stone and the top of the wall. Is this a good idea, and is this product the same as other latex bonding agents that are available at supply houses. "Weldcrete comes to mind. Also, nice clean work Superseal.


It might be the same, although it is much thicker. 

I suspect a lot of the latex stuff is relabeled in the industry, but could be wrong. Silpro was made or packaged or both in the next town over from me when I lived 10 years ago, its still in the same spot actually, but you cant show up and pick anything up. 

It is also very thick, thicker then anything ive used so far. If other products work just as well(how are we to know) then I would prefer a thinner product. 

Either way on stone slabs I sponge the surface then go over it with the weld o bond, and it spreads a lot easier.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Ido my cap joints like Supetseal. Mask off and do a neat job. I don't use a tool to finish. Just latex gloves and papper towel.
I also crosshatch the bottom of the stone with a 4" grinder before setting.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

This stuff is EXCELLENT. Comes in a few colors also.
http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=11860


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

superseal said:


> I use Polyurethane sealants for caps...Dymonic/Tremco, Sika, Vulkem, etc...


prosoco [basf] too is very good...Super Seal, so where's the coffee can of mineral spirits to wipe the favored finger...lol

as far a wedging capstone, I'd rather you make the mud so that the stone can be shimmied or tapped to the line....compression enhances bond and thwarts shrinkage when drying. Wood wedges should be removed in time to let the mud support evenly along ....then pack from the side. We'd put a thumb or finger in a old tee shirt and pack inward /downward while wiping the seems in ...then tool it ....works well in cool weather when the joints linger....similar on mosaic stone wall toppings. If you dicker with the jointer too soon, they'll undoubtedly shrink up or dry too soon on hot days,before you get them contoured and seemed in. The tee shirt works especially well with filed stone or irregular stone .


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Fancis Casini said:


> prosoco [basf] too is very good...Super Seal, so where's the coffee can of mineral spirits to wipe the favored finger...lol
> 
> as far a wedging capstone, I'd rather you make the mud so that the stone can be shimmied or tapped to the line....compression enhances bond and thwarts shrinkage when drying. Wood wedges should be removed in time to let the mud support evenly along ....then pack from the side. We'd put a thumb or finger in a old tee shirt and pack inward /downward while wiping the seems in ...then tool it ....works well in cool weather when the joints linger....similar on mosaic stone wall toppings. If you dicker with the jointer too soon, they'll undoubtedly shrink up or dry too soon on hot days,before you get them contoured and seemed in. The tee shirt works especially well with filed stone or irregular stone .


No licking your fingers with polys that's for sure...However, there many occasions once tooled, soapy water nicely smooths the joint.

Bag the mineral spirits, this ain't impervo...I use Zylene :cursing:

It must look yummy to the untrained eye I would agree...just no licky fingers.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

I and a few friend got a temp job in a antenna factory to make prom money...we'd always get oiled up so someone pointed us to a vat of this stuff that smelled kinda minty.....and cleaned your sinuses out....we'd bend over and dip one arm the the other up to nearly our arm pits. Worked great.....turned out it was trichlorethylene  they revised the makeup for brake cleaner


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> FJN posted a link years ago to what was done in the past. Bitumen soaked Jute bags would be placed in the joints to within 1/2" or so of the face then mortar to finish. Mortar joints that birds can see have been a problem for a looooong time





If memory serves,it was in an older edition of the Indiana Limestone Handbook.


I'M sure many revisions have been implemented from my old paper copy,anyway,for those interested,here is a free download of their handbook.


http://www.iliai.com/pages/Handbook


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Fancis Casini said:


> ...compression enhances bond and thwarts shrinkage when drying.


I was taught that a dry mud doesn;t shrink and if it is troweled to a flat level bed compression isnlt necessary. If the units are heavy enough there isnlt any need for the suction that wet mix creates and the non shrinkage far outweighs any benefits of suction.
I always use the driest mud that will still allow the desired production rate. A good dry bed can be troweled level and the caps set with only a couple of taps to set it, mass and gravity take over form there...no wedges or anything else needed



fjn said:


> If memory serves,it was in an older edition of the Indiana Limestone Handbook. .


It absolutely was


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> I was taught that a dry mud doesn;t shrink and if it is troweled to a flat level bed compression isnlt necessary. If the units are heavy enough there isnlt any need for the suction that wet mix creates and the non shrinkage far outweighs any benefits of suction.
> I always use the driest mud that will still allow the desired production rate. A good dry bed can be troweled level and the caps set with only a couple of taps to set it, mass and gravity take over form there...no wedges or anything else needed
> 
> 
> It absolutely was


Sean,I agree with no wedges....the compression I was referring to was block related IE same as a block is laid. If he fills the cores then it's of course a dryer mix.......When we use dry mix as under b stone or granite we use concrete sand and screed/wood float then sprinkle on some portland [some times mixed 1:1 with fine sand] wet a bit then put the stone on and tap on it to bring up some moisture.[they do complete tile mud jobs in homes with an Italian rubber bottomed vibrator the same way.....Now a days everything is thermal cut which makes it damned simplistic however we always had to lay them twice to get a stone to lay with no hollows...we would sprinkle the portland on the 2nd attempt. This method called for a bit wetter mix so the stone could be shimmied and tapped in p[lace. The sticking you refer to is very much a good thing and a by product of no water line between the stone and mud bed. Dry pack is pre compressed usually with hand mad wood floats and or the 2 by 4 slapped on it ....we've all seen dry ''unpacked'' beds that hold water and rot. I removed a large newly installed b stone patio to find water under the drypack between the slab. It was done as if it was a mud job in the home....had to be 50 shovels with mason sand, unpacked.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

superseal said:


> I use Polyurethane sealants for caps...Dymonic/Tremco, Sika, Vulkem, etc...


SS, are you using that blue painters tape for the joint? It never seems to adhere that well for me, even when the stone is clean.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Fancis Casini said:


> I and a few friend got a temp job in a antenna factory to make prom money...we'd always get oiled up so someone pointed us to a vat of this stuff that smelled kinda minty.....and cleaned your sinuses out....we'd bend over and dip one arm the the other up to nearly our arm pits. Worked great.....turned out it was trichlorethylene  they revised the makeup for brake cleaner


Well THAT would explain a lot. LOL


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## blockmanjohn (Jan 13, 2010)

Francis, when you use a dry mix what type of mortar do you use?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm not really talking about drypack, i'm talking about mortar that has just enough water for the reaction to go. My test is to pack a ball of it and throw it about a foot or so in the air and catch it, if it has cracks but doesn;t fall apart it's good to go. No cracks and it's too wet. It's how I lay ashlar also (architectural ashlar not what the quarries call ashlar these days), and instead of levelling the unit I level the bed, using the steel on the bed brings up just enough water to make a bond and a few light taps on the unit sets it. Bed is dense, stone has a good bond and needs to popped off with a chisel or a deadblow


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> I'm not really talking about drypack, i'm talking about mortar that has just enough water for the reaction to go. My test is to pack a ball of it and throw it about a foot or so in the air and catch it, if it has cracks but doesn;t fall apart it's good to go. No cracks and it's too wet. It's how I lay ashlar also (architectural ashlar not what the quarries call ashlar these days), and instead of levelling the unit I level the bed, using the steel on the bed brings up just enough water to make a bond and a few light taps on the unit sets it. Bed is dense, stone has a good bond and needs to popped off with a chisel or a deadblow


Sean my dad would tell me his dad would say the same thing about stone mud.....''wet enough to make a meat ball out of it''...of course in the heat I make it softer and wet in the back of the tub for parging the backs and joints. Oh Sean dont hit the stone after it's laid do your pitching first!:laughing: Karl I knew I had that coming from someone...lol


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## blockmanjohn (Jan 13, 2010)

Will a half inch thick bed joint be enough for 2 inch thick lime stone caps?


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

blockmanjohn said:


> Will a half inch thick bed joint be enough for 2 inch thick lime stone caps?


3/8" bed/ head all good. If you need 1/2" to achieve a certain elevation fine as well.
See as you've asked several times Type S or Type N. Personal preferences will very if you have either on site no reason to add extra cost to job.
We use a boarder line block/ brick consistency. Like I said earlier we dampen surface that contacts mortar so we get an even dry/ bond of materials. Experiment a little. The drier each material is the less chance of a superior bond in my experience. Your talking 2" cap not much weight/ compression due to weight. Every one does things differently. Experiment see what works for you. And each application varies. Good luck don't over think it's just caps.:whistling


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

blockmanjohn said:


> Will a half inch thick bed joint be enough for 2 inch thick lime stone caps?


3/8" bed/ head all good. If you need 1/2" to achieve a certain elevation fine as well.
Seein as you've asked several times Type S or Type N. Personal preferences will very if you have either on site no reason to add extra cost to job.
We use a boarder line block/ brick consistency. Like I said earlier we dampen surface that contacts mortar so we get an even dry/ bond of materials. Experiment a little. The drier each material is the less chance of a superior bond in my experience. Your talking 2" cap not much weight/ compression due to weight. Every one does things differently. Experiment see what works for you. And each application varies. Good luck don't over think it's just caps.:whistling


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Jeez, never saw that they were 2" thick. Definitely not a candidate for for using a dry mortar, use about the same consistency as you did for laying the block.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

heavyc said:


> We use a boarder line block/ brick consistency. Like I said earlier we dampen surface that contacts mortar so we get an even dry/ bond of materials. Experiment a little. The drier each material is the less chance of a superior bond in my experience.


I've had the same experience and either dampen or paint on a slurry to achieve maximum bond. It makes a huge difference.



heavyc said:


> Your talking 2" cap not much weight/ compression due to weight. Every one does things differently. Experiment see what works for you. And each application varies. Good luck don't over think it's just caps.:whistling


Exactly. The end result matters more than the method.



dom-mas said:


> Jeez, never saw that they were 2" thick. Definitely not a candidate for for using a dry mortar, use about the same consistency as you did for laying the block.


That's why I had recommended buttons or wedges for support while the mortar sets up...not using them to level the cap. Composite wedges are better than wood because if you're not soaking the wooden wedges, they swell and break bond.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I pound my 2" stones with a rubber hammer, what is this wedging your talking about!


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JBM said:


> I pound my 2" stones with a rubber hammer, what is this wedging your talking about!


I don't usually need the support of wedges for smaller caps like that, but it's good insurance if the op doesn't have a lot of experience with stone like this. They come in handy once the caps start weighing in over 200 lbs though, and then they are there to hold the level, not to elevate the stone to level. 

Pound away!:laughing:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Dont you usually use your fingers for wedges on the big stones


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JBM said:


> Dont you usually use your fingers for wedges on the big stones


No, I use my fingers between the hammer and the stone.:laughing:


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

ok here's what I do on heavy stone that has a thermal or sawed bottom and even on some lumpy based. The water content of the mud depends on temp and the weight of the stone as well as what it's laid on...stone/brick/ block / conc. 

If the stone is perfectly flat bottomed then I find same goes for the mortar base so it'll need to be screeded via a pipe screed or a wet screed for flat work [i've done both..pipe is faster] An easy way to screed unit wall tops is to take 1/2'' or 3/8'' rod and lay across the wall for a screed guide...two to start then one there after. Leave it long out the front and twist and pull or slightly lift the end. this works nicely for treads to that have similar bases.....screed the bed with 1/2'' or 3/3 rod set for 3/16 to 1/4'' pitch...remove and insert a long dee stake...side the tread [no matter how heavy] easily into the stair well then gently pry up with a wonder bar or whatever and pull the dee stake out the tap down ....block of wood and a sledge gently. Pack in the dee stake with a wood lath and hammer or rod.
For the old fashioned un gauged stuff with large bumpy bottoms as some old granite has the wall tops at the backside are left low to compensate and allow for shim packing. These we'd use 5 or 6 ft pry bars [old truck axles] set across to side in the caps..or set with the backhoe.

Stone chimney caps on on piers can be a pain when when they are too heavy to set down and adjust without pulling a pier loose ie a laborer whom cant hold it up and adjust before he lets it down wrong...then pulls it right.

I take some balls of loosely rolled lead and place them on the piers [one each] then set the cap on them....it allows the stone to be adjusted slightly and then taped down...sometimes we'll lay it dry [hot days]then tuck in under then tap down. Grave stones and marble statues etc were set in the same fashion for years. I also love the wedges....as with stone veneers in cold... weather...the wood blots up the water nicely and helps out matters greatly starting a reaction across the bed.


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## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

Very interesting thread - sorry I'm late to it. But there's a lot of good insight here some good tips and I've used most of them, like painting slurry on the bottom or cross-hatching with the grinder.

I do agree that we have lots of different techniques to achieve the same job pretty much what works for you. 

I'd just add that when I worked commercial work our capstones all had two stainless steel dowels drilled into the bottom, one near each end.

Also, some pieces of limestone are too heavy for these techniques. For those we would use plastic horseshoe shaped shims that would be placed near the corners of the stone. Set back, they would stay in. We would spread mortar allowing for some compression, but keeping it away enough from the shims so none could squeeze over and get on top of them. For a 3/8ths joint, you would use one black and one red shim.
Set stone, often with crane or hoist, then fill in any voids around the shims with trowel and slicker.

And I was taught by the old guys (of which I guess I am now one  ) to use a rawhide mallet on limestone, like this:








Dave


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

dbrons said:


> Very interesting thread - sorry I'm late to it. But there's a lot of good insight here some good tips and I've used most of them, like painting slurry on the bottom or cross-hatching with the grinder.
> 
> I do agree that we have lots of different techniques to achieve the same job pretty much what works for you.
> 
> ...


If you are slurry coating /grinding kerfs for bond then tapping a crane loaded stone with that hammer along with shims below means you surely vibrated a water line to the stone bottom that is preserved by the stone resting on those shims....they should be compressed and no reason having a stay in place shim. This isnt woodworking.
IE less blows with a heavy hammer on a wood block on stiff accurate as can be mud circumvents the vibratory water line and negates counter measures, especially in cold.


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## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

Lol, Francis I don't think you understood my post. Certainly a 4 pound rawhide is not for a stone set by a crane. 

Bonding agents or roughing up the bottom of stones is for backyard wall caps. I was just giving a little background info I thought might be of interest about how larger stones that you can't hold up with stiff mud are sometimes set. You obviously didn't get the distinction.
Dave


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

The shims dbrons is taking about are called buttons and have been used for a loooong time. Now they're made of plastic, they used to be made of sheet lead folded to the proper thickness. (relatively) Common practise


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> The shims dbrons is taking about are called buttons and have been used for a loooong time. Now they're made of plastic, they used to be made of sheet lead folded to the proper thickness. (relatively) Common practise


Exactly right Sean. Lots of old work done using that technique, it's not a new practice.

Dbrons, I'm setting granite caps on a large commercial project for the last couple months and we are using the same shims. We've got some whites that are 3/8" but when we need to, one red one black.:thumbsup: SS dowels too....


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

dbrons said:


> Lol, Francis I don't think you understood my post. Certainly a 4 pound rawhide is not for a stone set by a crane.
> 
> Bonding agents or roughing up the bottom of stones is for backyard wall caps. I was just giving a little background info I thought might be of interest about how larger stones that you can't hold up with stiff mud are sometimes set. You obviously didn't get the distinction.
> Dave


well then great...however how would I distinguish from your post.

Sean I know and knew about non compressible shims for a loooong time....are you serious?,They are load bearing which isnt a good thing.They are used [handy] when setting pcast or stone on flashing where ''capillary mortar set is prevented by flashing''. Bonding mechanisms in conjunction with flashing underneath especially on gables..also has been around too.I.E.copper flashing was pounded over them to have it mushroom upward to prevent leaks or a copper tube would be soldiered to the sheet.

These shims hold the stone up and packing in along the flashing line below the stone will never work...so they started raking back and caulking. However I see no good in using this for stone on stone when it can be screed-ed and set with as few as possible taps via a wood block and heavy hammer. It's the repetitious blows with rubber or whatever that form the separation [sag out]. The same goes with brick and the reason it's not good to tap brickwork redundantly.

I replaced a brand new bluestone patio where they halted the job because bond was hollow. Kerfs and agents were used along with slury coats....however being thermal stone were non existent they mad the mudd softer and mallet set them......It ended up being a 35,000 job for me. The guy was an engineer whom owned a catv co...sold it for 75 mill. 
Perhaps o/t but I wonder how one lays cap or any stone with irregular bottoms without making softer mud. The shims are useless in this case and double setting is necessary. There is no mending an excessive water line beneath a stone...sprinkling dry powder is perhaps the best preventative I know of as done with glass block too...and screw those shims. 

As for whats being done nowadays as being always right....cmon now


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Re-read how dbrons said he does it. Set the buttons in place and set a bed just higher than the buttons but not too close to them. Set the cap and beat it down slightly so it rests on the buttons, the mortar is still doing 90% of the bearing and because it's (lightly) beat into place there is still a good bond. 

He;s not talking about the method of setting on buttons then jointing in after, although I've seen that method used also


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> Re-read how dbrons said he does it. Set the buttons in place and set a bed just higher than the buttons but not too close to them. Set the cap and beat it down slightly so it rests on the buttons, the mortar is still doing 90% of the bearing and because it's (lightly) beat into place there is still a good bond.
> 
> He;s not talking about the method of setting on buttons then jointing in after, although I've seen that method used also


I understood it quite well from reading it the first time and I am aware of the pack mortar under later method too. There is also a rake out and repack [sometimes in multiple layers / apps] to help in avoiding shrinkage!
My problem is the very fact that light multiple blows on a stone are being done that is stopped by a permanent shim.....even as you state a 10% shim support [which is impossible to predict let alone perfect in all weather] some shrinkage will occur increasing permanent shim load.
This is not to mention to hope that these shims will be somewhat near 10% supportive on cap stone laid ''on flashing being tapped'' with light but repetitive blows [like a vibrator],especially in cooler weather.

I dont see any left in place shims being good unless they make one that shrinks as the mortar does. Simple wedges or oval dowels that can be turned WHEN THE MUD HAS SET A BIT and removed would be preferred.

I perhaps think too much...but I can read


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## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

I think you guys are slightly misinterpreting what I was posting about. It was just some info about my experience placing large stones - stones that cannot be held up with mortar alone due to their weight. Some weigh a ton or more 

I showed my rawhide mallet because its a tool I love and definitely recommend over rubber or anything else. Made in the state of Maine too.  But the mallet is used on smaller stones. Maybe a bit on the large stones but only to assist in positioning while still lifted by the crane. Once the stone is set by the crane no one is hitting it down - when it's down its down.

And Francis, I definitely respect your experience in the trade and have absolutely no desire to get into a back and forth with you. I would just say this. We here on contractors talk are a friendly bunch who share our experience with each other. I don't see this board as a competition. 

There seem to be those, in the trades and elsewhere, who's thing is to always think they have the one correct way to do everything. Problem with that is that it is really just their opinion, and it is based on their own particular point of view. Others may have a different opinion and point of view. 

I learned a long time ago that there is usually more than one way to do most jobs, and more than one way to do it right. Sometimes cost is a factor. Making a job "stronger" is not necessarily a good thing if the job already exceeds the strength required, and it adds time or cost to it. 

Dave


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

my rawhide is the best,
wouldnt trade it for nothing


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

good for you then I dont mean to stick a stick in your spokes....however
perhaps we should broaden this mallet and shim stuff....suppose you are setting large granite treads in and dont have a sky hook! Tell me how your button shims will set a 3/16 to 14'' pitch on a large granite ...there is no other or better way than screeding the base to exact plane then sliding in via a long pin dowel..I merely take a 25lb hammer with a block of wood and set it....summer/winter /and utopia!......

the ideal permanent shim scenario is to have everything on one plane....this includes the below coursing/flashing/ and the stone bottom and top. Where/when do we ever see this in consistency to the point that 4 shims will support a stone evenly without one being shy.i..e teetering and needing under packing!

This is in regards to modern saw and thermal cut stone I was taught to take wood lath/furring whatever and pack in the under ..never mind the stone being held by a permanent shim.

The only reason I know a permanent shim is installed is when a cap stone is laid over a cornice i.e. not to subject the cornice to weight!
When this is done the joint is usually caulked after being raked.
This alone says there is full support by the shim!
Weather the mortar is sharing the load is purely dependent on the stone mason's make up and schooling.

Dave I'm sure your a fine mason....Ive seen some pics...but I dont like left in shims unless they are opposite viagra when wet!:laughing:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

im going to screed my brick courses now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg22ahXvscY


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dbrons said:


> And I was taught by the old guys (of which I guess I am now one  ) to use a rawhide mallet on limestone, like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dave, I just received a 4# mallet from Garland earlier this week...it's great! I've seen them before but have only used shot filled mallets with composite or plastic caps and I really like the raw hide a lot. We've been setting 4' granite caps @250# and the mallet is a joy to use. :thumbsup:


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## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

Wow, I'm real pleased you like it stonecutter! Yes, a really fine tool 
Dave


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

It's definitely going to stay part of the tool bag for sure....We've still got approx another 1500 linear ft to set. Where do you get your horseshoe shims?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

That mallet ok for 2" stock? Bout all I use really.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I don't see why not, but they've got a nice selection of you want one a bit lighter.

http://www.garlandmfg.com/mallets/split.html


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Cool!~ 

What do you do witha copper hammer?


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