# crazy sub harassing home owner



## lukerich (Mar 12, 2009)

I started an addition last June and brought in a friend of a friend to help w/ labor. He bid on the labor for the entire job. After the addition was framed and sheeted he stoped showing up. He totally killed my time lines and I ended up hiring someone else to help me finish. 
I ended up giving him about two thirds of the agreed amount even though he did less than half of the work. In december I found out he went to the home owners house and demanded payment! Long story short he refuses to answer my calls or return messages and he is now calling the homeowner demanding $2,000.
Today I am sending him a certified letter requesting a detailed invoice and outline of the original agreement. Oh yeah, it was a verbal agreement. No paperwork at all. My bad, never again. 
The homeowner is worried that he will put a lien of the house. I think he can, but he would have to lie. I'm in Illinois outside of Chicago. Any advice would be appreciated.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

How can he put a lien on the house if there was no contract?

Other posters on this forum are from around the same area and would know more about your local lien laws. My certified letter would say you need to stop harassing my clients otherwise you will be hearing from my attorney.


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

If he's a sub, where is his business license, insurance, wsib clearance certificate?

He's just a friend of a friend who hopped on for some labour work, it's your responsibility to ensure he's covered (insurance, wsib, etc.).

In any event, tell him to take a nose dive off something high.

Admit nothing, deny everything, next time don't do it again.

He can't lien, no contract, no proof.


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## GregC (Jan 24, 2010)

I Agree with above. No contract no lien. I would personally notify the police and at least get it on record! Meet with your customer and both of you report it!

After that... Call my cousin Vinnie! He knows how to handle these guys the old fashion way!


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

GregC said:


> After that... Call my cousin Vinnie! He knows how to handle these guys the old fashion way!


Actually, I think Guido does a better job.


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## GregC (Jan 24, 2010)

thom said:


> Actually, I think Guido does a better job.


That's my other cousin...he tells Vinnie what to do!


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## lukerich (Mar 12, 2009)

He's not just a friend, he is a carpenter/ contractor as well. I made sure he is insured and bonded, and looked at some of his work. 
I have also been told he can still file a lien even though there is no paper contract. I am going to talk to an attorney tomorrow.
This guy has really caused a lot of stress. I am a small company and it hard enough to get by w/ out someone making me look bad.
This makes me want to get out of the trades, but it's all I know how to do.


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## lukerich (Mar 12, 2009)

GregC said:


> That's my other cousin...he tells Vinnie what to do!


Thats funny. The home owner is 100% Italian.
I wish I could handle it the old way, but wife and two kids say no.


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## GregC (Jan 24, 2010)

lukerich said:


> Thats funny. The home owner is 100% Italian.


Well hell, they probably knows my cousins, Vinnie, Guido, Stu, Dominick, Big Mikey, "Little Joey" and maybe even my mama! 

You can call them toll free at _1-800-we-collect-the-old school-way_

but serious, don't panic...best thing is to talk it out with you're customer and show you have them in your best interest and apologizes as much as you can. You want them on YOUR side!


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## lukerich (Mar 12, 2009)

GregC said:


> Well hell, they probably knows my cousins, Vinnie, Guido, Stu, Dominick, Big Mikey, "Little Joey" and maybe even my mama!
> 
> You can call them toll free at _1-800-we-collect-the-old school-way_
> 
> but serious, don't panic...best thing is to talk it out with you're customer and show you have them in your best interest and apologizes as much as you can. You want them on YOUR side!


Ha, ha. He might know them! 
Not panicing at all. More angry than anything. Customer loves me and is 100% behind me. Actually called today w/ more work. They just don't want a lien! About to refinance!


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## GregC (Jan 24, 2010)

lukerich said:


> He's not just a friend, he is a carpenter/ contractor as well. I made sure he is insured and bonded, and looked at some of his work.
> I have also been told he can still file a lien even though there is no paper contract. I am going to talk to an attorney tomorrow.
> This guy has really caused a lot of stress. I am a small company and it hard enough to get by w/ out someone making me look bad.
> This makes me want to get out of the trades, but it's all I know how to do.


Oh and BTW, friends don't do that to friends. :no: Sorry man, I had a few of those types in my past as well.


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## Brien (Feb 3, 2010)

*He has no case*

Even if he is a licensed contractor. Whoever the permits name is the one who will pay. He has no contract with you or the customer. He can however come back on you for unemployment insurances, payroll taxes etc. Why? Because you hired him as a SUB-contractor which requires you to obtain a copy of his license, liability and comp. or the government says he is your employee. In Michigan if you are pay more than $1300.00 to a subcontractor he must receive a 1099. In the real world, tell him to kiss your a$$ and get a restraining order!


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## GregC (Jan 24, 2010)

lukerich said:


> Ha, ha. He might know them!
> Not panicing at all. More angry than anything. Customer loves me and is 100% behind me. Actually called today w/ more work. They just don't want a lien! About to refinance!


Good for you! You must be doing something right then! :thumbsup:

Yes, I hear ya. I had a similar case last year and my customer knew the other party was in the wrong and they completely understood. My sub, left the job and left me hanging, so our contract agreement was void. Never even went any further. But I see where you are coming from. Good Luck!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Who 'hired' the guy, you or the HO?

If it was you, then he should not even be speaking to the HO. If I were the HO, I'd contact the police...... and even see about a restraining order.


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## lukerich (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Who 'hired' the guy, you or the HO?
> 
> If it was you, then he should not even be speaking to the HO. If I were the HO, I'd contact the police...... and even see about a restraining order.


I hired him. I know he shouldn't be speaking to the HO.
This is the deal, I found out three weeks ago that he went to their house demanding money. The thing is that they were in Italy. I got a call from the son the next day telling me what happened. Naturally, I called him and flipped out. He agreed to stop contact w/ the HO, and meet w/ me to explain what he was thinking. I've been calling him for three weeks w/ no response. The HO has been back for two weeks, called yesterday and said he has called twice. Called him to flip out again... no response. I told the HO "tell him to stop calling you! you don't have to be nice! you don't owe him anything and never did!" And that's where I"m at now.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

lukerich said:


> I hired him. I know he shouldn't be speaking to the HO.
> This is the deal, I found out three weeks ago that he went to their house demanding money. The thing is that they were in Italy. I got a call from the son the next day telling me what happened. Naturally, I called him and flipped out. He agreed to stop contact w/ the HO, and meet w/ me to explain what he was thinking. I've been calling him for three weeks w/ no response. The HO has been back for two weeks, called yesterday and said he has called twice. Called him to flip out again... no response. I told the HO "tell him to stop calling you! you don't have to be nice! you don't owe him anything and never did!" And that's where I"m at now.


You need to inform the HO that if the guy calls again to hang up on him and call the police, if the guy shows up, they need to ask him to leave and then call the police.

After you do this call the guy tell him you have some money for him and want to meet him, when he calls you back to set up the meeting, inform him of what you have told the HO and that if he continues to harass you and the HO, the police will be called.


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## Lance S (Feb 3, 2010)

What Is a Mechanic's Lien?
Every person or firm that has furnished work or provided material to build or improve your property is entitled to a mechanic's lien on the property. This means that the contractor and any subcontractor or material supplier for a building project can go to court and try to take possession of your property if they are not paid. However, there are a number of items you should be aware of in order to avoid liens or determine if a lien is valid and enforceable.
Contractor Must Be Licensed By the State
A contractor who is supposed to be licensed, but is not, cannot file a mechanic's lien, even if all other provisions of the contract have been met.


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## Lance S (Feb 3, 2010)

Subcontractors Must Give You Notice
Subcontractors must also give you a specific notice in order to protect their right to file a lien if they are not paid by the contractor. The notice must give the name and address of the subcontractor, the name of the contractor who hired the subcontractor, and the type of service or material provided and its estimated value. The subcontractor’s notice must be given to you within 45 days of the time the subcontractor first furnishes labor or materials or it is not enforceable. 
The notice required from both the general contractor and the subcontractors must be delivered personally or by certified mail to either you or your authorized agent.


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## lukerich (Mar 12, 2009)

Lance S said:


> What Is a Mechanic's Lien?
> Every person or firm that has furnished work or provided material to build or improve your property is entitled to a mechanic's lien on the property. This means that the contractor and any subcontractor or material supplier for a building project can go to court and try to take possession of your property if they are not paid. However, there are a number of items you should be aware of in order to avoid liens or determine if a lien is valid and enforceable.
> Contractor Must Be Licensed By the State
> A contractor who is supposed to be licensed, but is not, cannot file a mechanic's lien, even if all other provisions of the contract have been met.


Unfortunately the state of Illinois doesn't issue any licensing for carpenters. All you need is general liability, workers comp, and in this case register w/ the city. He had all that. Illinois lien law sucks too.


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## Lance S (Feb 3, 2010)

Call Vinny


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## lukerich (Mar 12, 2009)

Lance S said:


> Call Vinny


 
Ha, Ha


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

What county? There is a requirement in Illinois that an intent to lien notice be sent within 60 days, or the right goes away in owner occupied houses. (60 days from commencement of work or completion-I can't remember)

I have a lawyer that specializes in construction law. Want his info? He's in Lombard.


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## lukerich (Mar 12, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> What county? There is a requirement in Illinois that an intent to lien notice be sent within 60 days, or the right goes away in owner occupied houses. (60 days from commencement of work or completion-I can't remember)
> 
> I have a lawyer that specializes in construction law. Want his info? He's in Lombard.


I read it was 90 days from last day of work. If it goes any further I might take you up on that lawyer. Thanks for the offer. I sent a certified letter that should shut him up.
Oh yeah, it's dupage county, and Lombard is 5 min. from me.


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## Kuba (May 3, 2009)

lukerich said:


> I started an addition last June and brought in a friend of a friend to help w/ labor. He bid on the labor for the entire job. After the addition was framed and sheeted he stoped showing up. He totally killed my time lines and I ended up hiring someone else to help me finish.
> I ended up giving him about two thirds of the agreed amount even though he did less than half of the work. In december I found out he went to the home owners house and demanded payment! Long story short he refuses to answer my calls or return messages and he is now calling the homeowner demanding $2,000.
> Today I am sending him a certified letter requesting a detailed invoice and outline of the original agreement. Oh yeah, it was a verbal agreement. No paperwork at all. My bad, never again.
> The homeowner is worried that he will put a lien of the house. I think he can, but he would have to lie. I'm in Illinois outside of Chicago. Any advice would be appreciated.


 
First of all, he would have to get a great lawyer to prove his case in order to even concider a lien...

Second, a lawyer will only attempt a lien in order to get this guys money - Getting the lien is near impossible without an agreement.

Last, he would have to show proof that he did a certain amount of the work..

He said she said means = NOTHING in court.

I would say the HO has more of a case against him for illegal conduct than he will ever have of getting a lein.

Your friend better be careful!

Show up at his HOUSE and confront him!!
SHOW UP AT HIS HOUSE!!!! AND CONFRONT HIM!!
Hes going to give you a bad name.. BEAT HIS ASS AND 8===> his wife!

Yes, verbal agreements are NNNUUUUTTTSSS - I wouldnt take out the trash for my own mother without a written agreement :laughing:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

your Mom should beat your ass:laughing:


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## Fallen (Feb 25, 2009)

The guy can still file a lien, but if it was an owner occupied single family dwelling the sub was required to serve a separate notice upon all the parties named in the deed to the home, then send his 90 Day Notice to all the appropriate parties, and then record the lien within 4 months from the last day of work. The 60 day notice has to be served via certified mail within 60 days from the FIRST day of work, which almost no one does because non-pay situations seldom rear their ugly head that early on in any project.

But, the fact is the guy can still place a lien (despite the fact that it wouldn't hold water in terms of enforcement) on the property which can create problems for the homeowners, which of course is what Lukerich was trying to avoid. There are remedies available to have the lien removed, but in a worst case scenario it could result in added expense to the homeowners because they will have to hire an attorney to compel the sub to remove it or face legal penalties. From the sounds of it, if he did record a lien against the home, no doubt it would be the half-assed, hand written type riddled with errors.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

> I started an addition last June and brought in a friend of a friend to help w/ labor. He bid on the labor for the entire job. After the addition was framed and sheeted he stoped showing up. He totally killed my time lines and I ended up hiring someone else to help me finish.


Sounds like a fixed rate "help me" contract. If so i know the scenerio. You go to bid another job and he is there working alone. Then you go to do some punch on the previous job and he is there working alone. Or something like that. If you hired him by the hour and paid him for hours worked there would be no problem. Or if you hired him as a sub to do all the work and he didn't finish, it would be fairly easy to breakdown. But, the "help me" contract is hard to sort out. I think I'd try to get it in front of a judge and let him/her sort it out.


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## rstarre (Dec 19, 2008)

If this guy has no contract, estimate or work order in writing with you, there isn't a thing he can do to the homeowner. He certainly doesn't have anything in writing with the home owner. I am in the Illinois suburbs and I had to provide paperwork before I was granted a lien on someone. Although that was a while back, the law should be the same. As a matter of fact, I believe any contractor lien in Illinois has to be renewed every six months. Check that part of it out. Maybe they changed the law on that, but I believe that rule hasn't changed. The home owner should get a police or court order to keep this nut off their property.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Do sonething like this to this guy :thumbsup:


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## Fallen (Feb 25, 2009)

rstarre said:


> As a matter of fact, I believe any contractor lien in Illinois has to be renewed every six months. Check that part of it out. Maybe they changed the law on that, but I believe that rule hasn't changed. The home owner should get a police or court order to keep this nut off their property.


The fact is, in Illinois anyone can file / record a lien. Irregardless of the existence of a written contract. It is perfectly legal to record a lien based upon an oral agreement. It's done all the time. They don't have any "Lien Police" working the counter at the Recorder of Deeds... Hell, in the Cook County Recorder's Office you could hand them your shoe & they'd record it. 

No, there is no such thing as "Renewing a Lien". That's a myth, that's been circulating for years. In Illinois a Mechanics Lien is good for two (2) years from the last day of having provided material or labor. The only way you can keep your lien alive beyond the 2 year window is to file a foreclosure suit leading up to the 2 year expiration. 

In this particular situation, if the homeowners are concerned about a lien being filed they should have someone conduct a tract search on their property to determine if a lien has been recorded.


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## lukerich (Mar 12, 2009)

Thanks for all the info. I sent a certified letter requesting an outline of the original agreement, invoice for services performed, payments received, and balance due. I also told him that I recommened the HO file a harassment suit if he continued to solicit monies from them... No response as of yet.
This guy is such a dumbass I don't think he can even produce what I'm asking for. Also, the friend that set us up told just informed me he "might have done some time". That would have been nice to know before we started the job!


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## Rocha_Const (Feb 7, 2010)

Something similar happened to me.

I subbed a guy I knew to move some dirt to level out an area. He had his own company and knew he was being subbed.

The problem is that every time I would turn around, the guy would go and talk to the home owner saying that he would need more money than what he was contracted for!!!

I of course kicked him out and gave him a check for the portion of the work he did with the Memo: Final Payment for work performed.
He cashed it, so the deal is over.

In your case, I would say you are fixing it the right way. I think he is going to lean over the lack of a contract to demand the work he was supposed to do and what he has supposed to get for it.

Besides what you did, I would also get an invoice and list with all the work the contractor that replaced him had to do in order to finish the job. This will help you against any claims of work he might lie and say he did.


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