# How am I bidding too low?



## robertpaint (Oct 7, 2007)

I'm currently doing custom homes for a builder that has me work directly with the homeowners. There's no GC involved.

I charge about 2.25 sq ft and many here say that's too low. I furnish all materials. The size of the homes average about 4000 sq ft living area.

That's 9000 that I charge for a 4000 sq ft home. I paint the interior and exterior fascia and soffit.

It takes 2 guys 3 days to do the exterior (one painter, one helper).
That costs me $360 in labor and $200 in paint and other material.
$560 for the exterior.

It takes 4 guys 4 days to paint the interior. (3 painters, 1 helper)
About $1500 in labor and $1000 in paint and other material.
$2500 for the interior

Then it takes 1 guy 2 days for touchups.
$200


That's less than $3300 for all labor and materials.

That leaves me with about $5700

After taxes, food, gas, and any other overhead, that leaves me with about $3000 - $4000 on each house.

How is that too low?


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

robertpaint said:


> It takes 2 guys 3 days to do the exterior (one painter, one helper).
> That costs me $360 in labor
> 
> It takes 4 guys 4 days to paint the interior. (3 painters, 1 helper)
> ...


It is simply not accurate
By my calculations you are either paying your guys less than the min. wage (which ends up costing you around 11.25 an hour), or you are paying them 11.25 an hour cash...under the table, and using that figure

Either way it comes up illegal

If you are paying them 11.25 an hour legit, your labor costs are way more than 11.25 an hour

So at best it's inaccurate


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

robertpaint said:


> After taxes, food, gas, and any other overhead, that leaves me with about $3000 - $4000 on each house.


That strikes me as untrue, but even if it were, nobody likes to see you leave money on the table.


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## Footfall (Feb 27, 2008)

> t takes 2 guys 3 days to do the exterior (one painter, one helper).
> That costs me $360 in labor





> 4 guys 4 days to paint the interior. (3 painters, 1 helper)
> About $1500 in labor


Do you have high employee turnover? Serious question, no tongue in cheek or whatever.. I'm really wondering.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

robertpaint said:


> It takes 2 guys 3 days to do the exterior (one painter, one helper).
> That costs me $360 in labor and $200 in paint and other material.
> $560 for the exterior.


Figuring 8 hour days, that comes out to $10 an hour for the painter, and $5 an hour for the helper.

It'd take me more than 3 days though..cuz @ 10.00 an hour, I'd spend most of my time laying in the shade.


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## THINKPAINTING (Feb 24, 2007)

This has to be a fake post? That guy is not serious? 2.25 a sq ft

If you are for real, join a local PDCA chapter meet up with some old timers
and get some advice on the business of painting, estimating, marketing
or contact Brian at outofthebucket.com but please do something....


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## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

*Is this for real?*

1. Who, as a standard setup has a painter just come in and do entire interior, then exterior trim only? That seems like a weird niche market to begin with.
2. 4 guys can paint a 4000 sq. ft. home in 4 days I guess, but there are just way too many variables. To even do that you would have to have the most efficient painters who have already planned every step of the day based on dry times. You don't get that for $11/hr.
3. You did not state what you are doing for $2.25/ sq ft. You can make that number work, but that is if you aren't doing ceilings, only painting door and window FRAMES, and doing a single coat on the walls and that is not only a stretch but any configuration besides that doesn't make sense.


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

I get 2.75-3.00 for that size of house, also depends on interior moldings. That is with no exterior painting other than entry doors.


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## robertpaint (Oct 7, 2007)

The work is

One color walls, one color for ceilings, and one color for trim. No accent walls, faux, or any of that is extra. I don't do cabinets either.

Crown molding is only in one room most of the time.

The exterior is soffit and fascia only because the houses use stucco that is already dyed.


Also, it's two coats on the walls, one on the ceilings.


I've talked to other builders and told them I would do it for about $2 a sq foot if they give me at least 3 homes a month. They said I charge way to high and that they pay 1.30 - 1.50 a sq foot for what I'm doing. Now, that's insane.


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## robertpaint (Oct 7, 2007)

This is what I'm talking about:

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg138/encoreconstruction/Residential/DSC09540.jpg

http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/...Residential/?action=view&current=DSC09545.jpg

Exterior.

It took 2 guys 2 and a half days to do that. Paint was 4 gallons for soffit and less than 2 gallons for fascia. About 5 gallons for primer.

The customer upgraded it to A100 for $200. The paint (total 11 gallons) cost me about $250 from SW.



We just did this house:

http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/...Residential/?action=view&current=DSC09644.jpg

Took 2 painters 3 and a half days. (rained for half a day.)

Paint was 5 gallons for soffit and 3 gallons for fascia. About 5 gallons for primer.

This customer also upgraded it to A100 for $250. The paint (total 13 gallons) ran me about $300.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I think the question is what are you paying your guy's?If they are "your" guys that means they are employees.
You list tax's,*FOOD*,and gas.No mention of insurance or WC.
Including food sounds like you are using guys from the HD parking lot...."I'll give ya 8.00 an hour AND buy you lunch."
But as long as your clearing 3 to 4K per house,why worry?:whistling


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## robertpaint (Oct 7, 2007)

JumboJack said:


> I think the question is what are you paying your guy's?If they are "your" guys that means they are employees.
> You list tax's,*FOOD*,and gas.No mention of insurance or WC.
> Including food sounds like you are using guys from the HD parking lot...."I'll give ya 8.00 an hour AND buy you lunch."
> But as long as your clearing 3 to 4K per house,why worry?:whistling




I do buy them food, but I don't pay them much. Only $10 for painters and about $8 for helpers. some more, some less.

I don't have worker's comp but I do have general liability. I'm working on getting WC though.


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

Once you start running legit you can say goodbye to most of your nice profit. Until that point comes make sure you save a bunch of that profit for lawyer fees, bail etc. when you get busted. Hopefully nobody hurts their back on you. Also the first guy that files for unemployment insurance on you will open up a can of IRS worms that will most likely end up in a little jail time for ya before the dust clears.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Brock said:


> Once you start running legit you can say goodbye to most of your nice profit. Until that point comes make sure you save a bunch of that profit for lawyer fees, bail etc. when you get busted. Hopefully nobody hurts their back on you. Also the first guy that files for unemployment insurance on you will open up a can of IRS worms that will most likely end up in a little jail time for ya before the dust clears.


Shocking!....Surely you are not saying he is doing something against the law?....


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## robertpaint (Oct 7, 2007)

All I'm missing is my worker's comp. It's not like I don't pay taxes.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

So you're saying that they guy's that you are paying 8.00/10.00 an hour are working here legaly and you pay the employment burden on them ie:withholding S.S.,unemployment et al.?


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2008)

robertpaint said:


> All I'm missing is my worker's comp. It's not like I don't pay taxes.


 Way to much risk. As other have said. That is part of your taxes for doing business. YOU REALY NEED TO LOOK AT PDCA AND DO SOME LEARNING. As I yell this at you. Part of doing business is covering your risk. Not if but when just one of your gays get hurt just throw your life away. Then we wont talk about OHSA. For there is a ton of paper work that you are most likely missing. Got hit by them 20 years ago on paper work and then it was $2000.00 would hate to see what would cost now. more like $2,5000. and no I didn't add a zero. It is people like you that is hurting the trade. Sorry but you hit a nerve.


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## daArch (Jun 8, 2007)

Robertpaint,

one question I keep seeing asked that has not been answered,

Are you hiring LEGAL workers? 

Are YOU operating a LEGAL shop ?

And it's not JUST about WC (which is mandated in many states), it's whether YOU or THEY are paying taxes on their labor.

The general consesus here is that you just can't do what you say you are doing without cutting many legal corners.

So I ask flatly, ARE YOU HIRING LEGAL WORKERS ???

(sorry to appear confrontational, but you know the old saying "if it walks and quacks like a duck.......")


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## Nigel S. Shorts (Jul 21, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Way to much risk. As other have said. That is part of your taxes for doing business. YOU REALY NEED TO LOOK AT PDCA AND DO SOME LEARNING. As I yell this at you. Part of doing business is covering your risk. Not if but when just one of your *gays* get hurt just throw your life away. Then we wont talk about OHSA. For there is a ton of paper work that you are most likely missing. Got hit by them 20 years ago on paper work and then it was $2000.00 would hate to see what would cost now. more like $2,5000. and no I didn't add a zero. It is people like you that is hurting the trade. Sorry but you hit a nerve.


Ahh, I think we've stumbled upon the problem here, fellas. He's hiring Gays to do his painting.:w00t: Everyone knows they work cheap, and never get hurt on the job. Good thinking old boy...lol


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2008)

Spelling was never my strong suit. But The Idea got across.


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## Nigel S. Shorts (Jul 21, 2007)

No, No, you did just fine. I took advantage of your little misspell to inject a little levity, that's all. And I knew what you meant. You're a homophobe, admit it..lol (TIC)


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## Custom Builder (Feb 10, 2008)

I pay $3.00 pr sq ft. Front of home is stucco and stone and interior is 3 colors for walls, one for ceiling, and one for trim. Cabinets are one stain color. I charge $250 per extra color. If you ever get up this way let me know, I've got some work for you. All of our homes are about 4,000 sq ft and up.


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## DeanV (Feb 20, 2006)

I hope you only have one cabinet in the home for 3.00/sq ft.


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I hope you only have one cabinet in the home for 3.00/sq ft.


:thumbup:


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## daArch (Jun 8, 2007)

Nigel S. Shorts said:


> No, No, you did just fine. I took advantage of your little misspell to inject a little levity, that's all. And I knew what you meant. You're a homophobe, admit it..lol (TIC)


And you aren't ? :devil2:

OH that's right, I forgot about Zeke :thumbsup: :whistling


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## tide88 (Sep 25, 2007)

Actually if he is only painting the soffit and fascia and not the whole exterior of the house he is not really bidding that low. That would take less than a day to do.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

tide88 said:


> Actually if he is only painting the soffit and fascia and not the whole exterior of the house he is not really bidding that low. That would take less than a day to do.





robertpaint said:


> It takes 2 guys 3 days to do the exterior (one painter, one helper).
> That costs me $360 in labor and $200 in paint and other material.
> $560 for the exterior.


Evidently not at his production rates. 

This is why you can't just take a rate from another company and blithely apply it to your company. You have to base things on your company's production rates, expenses, and profit expectations.

Its taking two of his $7.50/hour painters three days to paint the exterior. Now, if he had one $15.00 an hour painter, perhaps this job would go faster.

The thing I'm mystified by is, how robert can get to $7.50/hour per man as his total labor burden. Where is the insurance, FIT/FICA, SUI, W/C, etc?


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

You need to bid surface area, not floor square footage.


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