# Employees and their hours



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

spencer,
If I was doing the type of work BamBam is(residential roofing/siding?)--- with the type of employees he has ( lets say 6 employees with of mix of skill levels and a mix of time accrued with the company and a certain amount of employee turnover expected?)---- I think I would use his system

it sounds very business like and professional

personally---- I would rather be just a bit less business like and professional.

the 2 employees I mentioned are relatives.
we will be adding a new apprentice about april(non related)

currently my 2 guys ride to work in a company truck, which goes home with one of them. they live on the other side of town from me( right in the heart of one of our best markets).

Our commutes range from 2 minutes to 80-90 minutes one way. The lads are on the clock each morning the minute K. leaves his driveway to pick up A. Basically--- they are paid to drive TO the job.

they are OFF the clock on the ride home---UNLESS they need to go to the shop on the way home.

so on a given day they may be paid almost 3 hours to ride in the truck.

I haven't decided exactly what we will do with the new employee, but I expect it will be similar/the same system.

BTW--- lunch time/bathroom time is paid also. We don't have set times. they are free to stop and eat a sandwich whenever they want--- need to go to the bathroom?? sure thing.
K likes to have a bite mid morning/noonish and mid afternoon.
A likes to eat late morning.

one area we work in--- If I am in the area at the right time, I bring Cannoli and eyetalian coffees at 10:00 to the job

this is the way we like to work--- if we were doing a tear-off and re-roof every day like BAM--- I understand that we couldn't

the new hire in April???? he will either get on board with our system--- or I will find someone else who will.

this will sound a bit trite--- but I am not interested in spending my day with someone who isn't family--- or very much like family . the last 5 employees I have had--- 2 have been family--- 3 have not--- the customers assumed they ALL were family. 2 weeks ago my wife and I went to an engagement party for one of those 5 employees. Brandon hasn't worked with me in 6 years--- but he and his parents wanted us to meet his fiance and see how well they were doing. the wedding will be in California or I am sure we would be going to that as well.

whoever we hire in april---we expect the same thing out of--- in time I expect him to get married, buy a house, raise a family--- he will have medical benefits, profit sharing etc.

I am not really interested in racking every 6 minute time increment out of him each day that I can. If I was--- I would do things differently.

that's the beauty of operating our own little businesses.
I can arrange things to suit MY way of doing things--- you can arrange things YOUR way--- the guy down the street can arrange things HIS way---we can all suit ourselves---and we will all organically attract employees that best fit our systems.

Best wishes,
stephen


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

No hours turned in = no paycheck. He will figure out how to remember.

Bi-weekly for him would be even worse. If he can't remember to turn in his hours after one week he definitely won't remember when he worked 2 weeks prior.

I think the above suggestions with the online timecards are the best. Better for you also. The hours turned in aren't accurate. I'm not assuming he is working 40 and turning in 45, there could be a possibility he forgets his hours and is short changing himself. Maybe he is getting in an extra 30 minutes a few days a week and only turning in 8 per day. In his mind he knows he is not cheating the company. This does happen. The problem this creates for you is that's 1 1/2 hours a week you can't bill for.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Spencer said:


> Sound like you answered my question indirectly. I was wondering if you paid you guys for travel time to or from the jobsite.


It depends. If the guys are heading directly to the job site, no I don't.

If they are heading here first, they can punch in. Anyone who has keys to a vehicle has keys to the trailer. Truthfully they usually don't. One of them told me it's because he's allowed to take the truck home at night so he figures it makes it fair since he rarely pays for fuel for his personal vehicle. Told him he can still clock in though but rarely does.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Stephen, I sure wish I could work with family. It may be easier with sons than brothers though as I am 0-2 on brothers. I guess they didn't like taking orders from their much younger brother.

When I had 2-3 employees I didn't use the system. Now that I am up to 7, it's a no brainier for me. Often two jobs are going at once, guys are too busy to pay attention to the time and hours never seemed to add up. It never made sense that guys always started at exactly 7am and ended exactly at 3:30 with a perfect half hour lunch.

Since I got the system, no one has ever started and finished at exactly those times. Its always a little after 7, lunch is always longer than 30 minutes and they day is always finished at an odd hour.

I know before everyone was blasting me on using this system but it saves me a drastic amount of money that allows me to reinvest in the company. My payroll comes out to over $130 a hour before any taxes, insurances so all in its around $180 hour. If that job clock saves me just one hour a week, its a substantial savings over a year. 

Figure a guy punches in at 7:08, works until 11:28. Clocks back in at 12:05. Clocks out for the day at 3:39. His hand written time card will read 7-11:30 & 12-3:45. Not a big deal if its one guy but that's 21 minutes he's getting paid for not working. That's also not intentionally being dishonest, its just not paying exact attention.

Now multiply that 21 minutes for one guy by 7 that's 2 hours and 27 minutes I paid for that day. Times 5 days a week, that's 12hrs 25minutes of money I just took away from my family. Almost 49 hours a month, 2,548 hours a year.

With that said, it makes sense for me, may be "slimy" to some of you guys but the guys actually really like it, makes it simple for all of us.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Stephen, I sure wish I could work with family. It may be easier with sons than brothers though as I am 0-2 on brothers. I guess they didn't like taking orders from their much younger brother.
> 
> When I had 2-3 employees I didn't use the system. Now that I am up to 7, it's a no brainier for me. Often two jobs are going at once, guys are too busy to pay attention to the time and hours never seemed to add up. It never made sense that guys always started at exactly 7am and ended exactly at 3:30 with a perfect half hour lunch.
> 
> ...


It can also keep an honest employee from being put in a bad situation when he has to submit his time next to a dishonest employee. I have seen it more than once where a less than honest employee tries to coerce another or multiple others into submitting time that was not worked when the boss would never know. 

In a business like yours I would be using the same system. When I go the employee route I hope I am able to structure it like Stephen but it ultimately depends on the employees.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I see both sides. Like Stephen, I have complete trust in the guys that I work with. If I can't trust them to keep their time accurately, then I can't trust them with other aspects of the job. I do think it would be nice to handle all of the time sheets without the paper mess. Similar to our direct deposit, it would not require me to actually be handed the time sheet. It also puts the responsibility entirely on the employee to insure that he gets paid.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I see both ways and trust the guys entirely (otherwise they wouldn't work for me or know where I live). I'm doing it from a mere financial perspective.

One other benefit is that I can go back to any day and find the exact hours worked on any job. This proved beneficial during my lawsuit last year where the guy erroneously said we took months to complete the job but the hours showed we were on the job for 15 man hours.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I see both ways and trust the guys entirely (otherwise they wouldn't work for me or know where I live). I'm doing it from a mere financial perspective.
> 
> One other benefit is that I can go back to any day and find the exact hours worked on any job. This proved beneficial during my lawsuit last year where the guy erroneously said we took months to complete the job but the hours showed we were on the job for 15 man hours.


I file all of the paper time sheets, so I could document if needed. I also keep a big desk calendar which I jot down on the end of each day the assumed hours. I rarely have to reference either one. The biggest obstacles for me in implementing a digital system would be cost, and my oldest employees total lack of tech savvy.

The one guy that I had constant time sheet issues with left last year, so the current guys are pretty good about turning in their time. I require it turned in by Tuesday, but most of the time I have all of them on Monday.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I see both ways and trust the guys entirely (otherwise they wouldn't work for me or know where I live). I'm doing it from a mere financial perspective.
> 
> One other benefit is that I can go back to any day and find the exact hours worked on any job. This proved beneficial during my lawsuit last year where the guy erroneously said we took months to complete the job but the hours showed we were on the job for 15 man hours.


These days you can't hardly have to much documentation. Comes in real handy for crap like that.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

I tend to be a stickler for reports and paperwork because I also work in the field which limits my office time. So I tell my guys that I'd rather that they be a little behind on the field work if their paperwork is 100% in order. I appreciate when they bust their hump to get their work done but it's a lot less stressful to be a little behind schedule in the field than to be WAY behind in the office. 

Doing your timesheet is a job duty so if it takes you an entire hour to fill one out, I'll pay you and even let you knock off a little early if it means that I don't have to hunt you down.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Stephen, I sure wish I could work with family. It may be easier with sons than brothers though as I am 0-2 on brothers. I guess they didn't like taking orders from their much younger brother.
> 
> When I had 2-3 employees I didn't use the system. Now that I am up to 7, it's a no brainier for me. Often two jobs are going at once, guys are too busy to pay attention to the time and hours never seemed to add up. It never made sense that guys always started at exactly 7am and ended exactly at 3:30 with a perfect half hour lunch.
> 
> ...


So it save you 458000.00 per annum?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Now multiply that 21 minutes for one guy by 7 that's 2 hours and 27 minutes I paid for that day. Times 5 days a week, that's 12hrs 25minutes of money I just took away from my family. *Almost 49 hours a month, 2,548 hours a year*.


I think you hit the wrong button on the calc... I think you meant to say 49 hours a month, 588 hours a year... 

Hope it wasn't the payroll company providing those numbers... :whistling :laughing:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

KAP said:


> I think you hit the wrong button on the calc... I think you meant to say 49 hours a month, 588 hours a year...
> 
> Hope it wasn't the payroll company providing those numbers... :whistling :laughing:


Yes you're right. I'm a roofer not a mathematician so unless there is 52 months to a year and not 12, I did it wrong. It should be 588 hours which is still substantial.

The company who provided the clocks didn't actually do any calculations for me.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Yes you're right. I'm a roofer not a mathematician so unless there is 52 months to a year and not 12, I did it wrong. It should be 588 hours which is still substantial.
> 
> The company who provided the clocks didn't actually do any calculations for me.


Should add, we also don't work every week and every day is different. I should really spend the time to calculate what it actually came out to be. I'd guesstimate a good 150 hours though.


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## GovtContractor (Dec 4, 2014)

KAP said:


> I think you hit the wrong button on the calc... I think you meant to say 49 hours a month, 588 hours a year:



Now to put that into perspective. Average skilled tradesman is $50hr on prevailing wage work. Add the labor burden and your looking at a company cost of let's say $60hr.

588 lost hours by $60 = $35,280

That'll buy a nice chicken dinner!


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Bam,
I agree with what you are saying and your reasoning on this 100%.

I don't think it is slimey in the least--- very business like and professional.

If the guys were working in a factory or something--- they would be using a similar system.

I suspect I am reaching the limits of my system---- but I would like to keep it the way it is for the forseeable future.

I like the flexibility--- for example----- If we have a job to do---and on site Kevie figures out a safer way to do something dangerous on that job and it saves us 2 hours??? I don't want to penalize the guys 2 hours pay for--in actuality, doing a better job.--- stuff like that.

but increasingly---- on any given day--- I am going to be selling in one county--- kev. is going to be working in a different county with an apprentice and A. is going to be fabricating copper work in the shop.

the next day all 4 of us may be working in the same place---and the day after that we may be in 2-3 totally different counties again

so we are just about at the point where we are too spread out for stephen to maintain that personal contact on every thing every day.

Tell you the truth though???
I am interested in the possibility of doing something through smartphones.

I bought smartphones about a year ago---and I am the LEAST tech savvy guy imagineable---- but I have been seriously impressed with the problems that can be solved by taking pictures and texting them back and forth( this is the days adress, this is the house, this is exactly where I want the pipe staging set up, this is the valley I want you to open up--- there are NINE valleys on this house--we are only working on THIS valley, etc.)

So--- I kind of like the thought that maybe they can clock in and out on their phones---- I will have to talk with the payroll company.

I do have a lot of appreciation for what Warren said--- about less tech savy employees--- because I am THAT guy

but, in reality---- moving forward--- anybody we hire is going to be MUCH younger than me---and almost certainly MUCH more tech smart----so if they arent able to use the system--- they probably aren't smart enough to work with us.
LOL
stephen


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

S.U.M said:


> "As far as the hours go I would just make it clear that without them he can't be paid that pay period.....pretty simple concept to grasp."
> 
> You would think eh....


I'm kinda like that guy, when I was an employee I often had 4 or 5 weeks of paychequs I just didn't get around to depositing.


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