# Enclosing garage doors



## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

Ok, this is something I’ve never dealt with before, so I need some direction. 

We’re looking at a project (basement refinish). Complete gut and redo. The home originally had a two-car garage – under the first floor of the house (basement level). The previous homeowner had the garage portion finished along with the basement portion of the basement level – a real “wall of shame” type hack/homeowner project – no permits.

The two garage door openings were simply framed in, insulated, drywalled (interior) and sided (exterior). Currently, when it rains or snows, water comes in under the wall and saturates the baseboard and carpeting.

Do I need to put grade beams in where the doors were? Is there another way to handle this?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> Ok, this is something I’ve never dealt with before, so I need some direction.
> 
> We’re looking at a project (basement refinish). Complete gut and redo. The home originally had a two-car garage – under the first floor of the house (basement level). The previous homeowner had the garage portion finished along with the basement portion of the basement level – a real “wall of shame” type hack/homeowner project – no permits.
> 
> ...


Pics?

Driveway slanted toward the garage?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

it would be best to saw cut the slab across the old opening, remove it, pour a footing & stem wall.

if the driveway should slope back towards the structure you will likely need to add a trench drain.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Pics?
> 
> Driveway slanted toward the garage?


No pics yet, but even if I had them, it looks like a finished exterior/interior. The driveway slopes away – very, very little. Not enough.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

May be able to skip the drain - but I'd definitely pour a small footing/stem wall in the openings AND flash it with coil that goes above the height of the stem walls and probably Grace in front of that 

If I can find some pics I did one like 6 years ago that we kerfed the concrete and had the roofer bend the flashing to slip in the cut while he was installing standing seam for us there.

Worked well


DaVinciRemodel said:


> No pics yet, but even if I had them, it looks like a finished exterior/interior. The driveway slopes away – very, very little. Not enough.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

griz said:


> it would be best to saw cut the slab across the old opening, remove it, pour a footing & stem wall.
> 
> if the driveway should slope back towards the structure you will likely need to add a trench drain.


The existing house sits on caissons. Due to our soils, we don’t have too many structures built on footings. I think I would need to saw cut the slab, excavate, place a void then pour a grade beam between the caissons (epoxy pinned to the existing caissons/grade beams). I’d need to get the sill plate 8” above the grade.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> The existing house sits on caissons. Due to our soils, we don’t have too many structures built on footings. I think I would need to saw cut the slab, excavate, place a void then pour a grade beam between the caissons (epoxy pinned to the existing caissons/grade beams). I’d need to get the sill plate 8” above the grade.


sounds about right.

why can't you form a stem wall on top of the grade beam?


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

griz said:


> sounds about right.
> 
> why can't you form a stem wall on top of the grade beam?


In thinking about it, we are probably talking about the same thing - just different terms.

In reality, I was hoping you guys had some type of miracle solution - not requiring digging. I hate digging - even when I don't have to do it :laughing:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

no miracle solution i know of....

cut, dig & cuss.....:laughing:


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Well, in my opinion, digging is not necessary. 
Just pour a stem wall the same height that the existing stem walls are at, in the door opening. slope the earth away from the new stem wall of course. This will take care of most of the water that may try to migrate under the new stem wall pour.
Make sure the new stem wall in at least 6" high. 
Your biggest problem, of course, will be making sure the new concrete is sealed well enough against the old.
I don't see the need for a new footing under the framed opening.

Andy.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Water will infiltrate the cold joint eventually is why id pour it


ScipioAfricanus said:


> Well, in my opinion, digging is not necessary.
> Just pour a stem wall the same height that the existing stem walls are at, in the door opening. slope the earth away from the new stem wall of course. This will take care of most of the water that may try to migrate under the new stem wall pour.
> Make sure the new stem wall in at least 6" high.
> Your biggest problem, of course, will be making sure the new concrete is sealed well enough against the old.
> ...


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## shanewreckd (Oct 2, 2014)

Jaws said:


> Water will infiltrate the cold joint eventually is why id pour it
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


That's true, unless you saw cut a thin keyway, and Sika in a water stop. Just saying, there are ways.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Well, in my opinion, digging is not necessary.
> Just pour a stem wall the same height that the existing stem walls are at, in the door opening. slope the earth away from the new stem wall of course. This will take care of most of the water that may try to migrate under the new stem wall pour.
> Make sure the new stem wall in at least 6" high.
> Your biggest problem, of course, will be making sure the new concrete is sealed well enough against the old.
> ...





shanewreckd said:


> That's true, unless you saw cut a thin keyway, and Sika in a water stop. Just saying, there are ways.


will argue the keyway/sealant method to the death.....

it fails in freeze/thaw country if you do not provide a footing/stem wall system that eliminates the sealed/keyway/cold joint system.


water & ice are an incredible adversary....


may work in some parts of the country, but is not a bullet proof remedy.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

So, I talked to my engineer about this today and he gave me a couple of options for handling the garage door opening (basically what we discussed above). But then he blew my mind when I described what I wanted to do about the slope in the concrete garage floor.

Let me set a quick stage here:

•	The garage floor portion of the basement slopes by approx. 4-1/2” over 27’.

•	The bottom riser on the stairs from the upper floor is 10-1/2” (all the other risers are 7-1/2”).

•	The stairs land on the highest part of the concrete – back of the garage. So, I have 3” that I can raise the floor in the back and 7-1/2” in the front (nearest the garage doors).

•	My plan was to install sleepers 6-1/2” in depth that tapered down to 2” to level the floor. This entire sleeper floor would then be shimmed (with plastic shims approx. ¼”) to the appropriate height (add ¾” subfloor to leave me with my first 7-1/2” riser). All of this over a 6-mil poly vapor barrier sheet. Note: this sleeper floor structure is not attached to anything – not attached to the slab, the foundation… nothing. It literally floats on and with the slab.

•	I would leave the mechanicals (furnace, water heater and water purification system) sitting on the concrete in the unfinished utility closet (approx. 4’ x 10’). 

•	We would then use rigid foam between the sleepers to create an insulation barrier.

•	All of the walls would need a 3” slip joint at the bottom plates (that is standard procedure here) to allow the slab/floor to rise/fall without affecting the structure above.

After I described this to him, he said “No”! I was dumbfounded. He reasoned that that was a hack job and he would not stamp it. I pushed him on his reasoning and he just said take it to the county, but there’s no way they will approve a sleepered floor either.

Am I missing something here? This seemed like the simple part of the project.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Did he have any suggestions?


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Just put down the poly-vinyl and then pour the floor.

Make life easy for yourself, it would be cheaper also.

Andy.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Just put down the poly-vinyl and then pour the floor.
> 
> Make life easy for your self, it would be cheaper also.
> 
> Andy.


That's a pour over for sure. 

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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Just put down the poly-vinyl and then pour the floor.
> 
> Make life easy for yourself, it would be cheaper also.
> 
> Andy.


That's a good idea but I wonder if at the 2" side it might not be thick enough as with the poly vapor barrier there won't be any connection between the new and old concrete, might feel a little loose?


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Just put down the poly-vinyl and then pour the floor.
> 
> Make life easy for yourself, it would be cheaper also.
> 
> Andy.





WarnerConstInc. said:


> That's a pour over for sure.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk





Rio said:


> That's a good idea but I wonder if at the 2" side it might not be thick enough as with the poly vapor barrier there won't be any connection between the new and old concrete, might feel a little loose?


Never done anything like this before. Walk me through this. You have my attention.

Rio, it would be 3" using this method


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Rio said:


> That's a good idea but I wonder if at the 2" side it might not be thick enough as with the poly vapor barrier there won't be any connection between the new and old concrete, might feel a little loose?


It will feel fine at 2".


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Jaws said:


> Water will infiltrate the cold joint eventually is why id pour it
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


You can form leaving a shallow groove for a seal. Backer rod and tool sealant in.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Make sure the old driveways are gone by the old door openings, inspect tile, clean? use a Mira-Drain product on any under ground concrete/CMUs .

I'd look at demoing the old crrraappp out of one of the doors with a small skid steer, re pour flat on rock and tile and you have 3-7" MORE head room, just add a landing ~7.5" high under the exist stairway. don't forget the Egress Window(s)/door.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> Never done anything like this before. Walk me through this. You have my attention.
> 
> Rio, it would be 3" using this method


I think what SA is suggesting is to make the floor level by pouring concrete in lieu of doing the floating floor.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

Rio said:


> I think what SA is suggesting is to make the floor level by pouring concrete in lieu of doing the floating floor.


I understand that Andy is suggesting to just pour over the existing slab and I’m liking the concept. Are there any tricks or pitfalls I need to be aware of? Why put down poly-vinyl first? Do I not want some kind of bond to the existing concrete? Bonding agent?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> I understand that Andy is suggesting to just pour over the existing slab and I’m liking the concept. Are there any tricks or pitfalls I need to be aware of? Why put down poly-vinyl first? Do I not want some kind of bond to the existing concrete? Bonding agent?


I would scarify it. Poly was for vapor barrier, not sure if there is one under existing slab. Call a concrete guy. 

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## Fishindude (Aug 15, 2017)

Make sure you side the entire side, don't just fill in the garage door openings. Can't stand those remodels where it is obvious the garage doors were just filled in and old garage converted to living space.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Won't hold up as well as a poured footing that's waterproofed. That's a lifetime fix


hdavis said:


> You can form leaving a shallow groove for a seal. Backer rod and tool sealant in.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

A keyway CAN fail. 

I don't play with water.


shanewreckd said:


> That's true, unless you saw cut a thin keyway, and Sika in a water stop. Just saying, there are ways.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

X2 on call a concrete guy. 

Like Darcy said, vinyl is to make sure there is a good vapor barrier, who knows what's under the existing. If you want to try to skip that and bond to the existing, tape clear plastic over parts of the slab, and see if you get moisture build up. If you do, it's back to using a vapor barrier.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Jaws said:


> Won't hold up as well as a poured footing that's waterproofed. That's a lifetime fix
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


You may be surprised, it may not last 100 years, but you can get at least 50 out of 3m 5200, and there are butyl sealing tapes that can be put in the bottom before the backer.

Because there is so much boat building and repair around here, I can go out and buy products that are rated for continuous immersion all over the place. One of the big boxes carries 5200, I don't even have to go to a marine supply place.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Jaws said:


> Won't hold up as well as a poured footing that's waterproofed. That's a lifetime fix
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Explain to me how this new poured footing will work, because I can guarantee there is already one the entire length of that wall. 

You will have a cold joint somewhere.

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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Explain to me how this new poured footing will work, because I can guarantee there is already one the entire length of that wall.
> 
> You will have a cold joint somewhere.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


You cut a trench through the existing concrete and pour the stem wall is one continuous pour with the footing. The cold joint is now 6 inch below the concrete. Do you waterproof a front of that I guarantee you you have a lot better shot of it not leaking then a cut.

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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

hdavis said:


> You may be surprised, it may not last 100 years, but you can get at least 50 out of 3m 5200, and there are butyl sealing tapes that can be put in the bottom before the backer.
> 
> Because there is so much boat building and repair around here, I can go out and buy products that are rated for continuous immersion all over the place. One of the big boxes carries 5200, I don't even have to go to a marine supply place.


It doesn't take much work to cut that trench and pour a stem wall. I would just pay the labor and get it done. We pour stem walls when the grade is too close to the existing slab on editions all the time and cover them with the framing.

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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Jaws stem wall footing is definitely the bulletproof way. Down here in **** wouldn't be nearly as critical as up in the cold country as Griz pointed out although I will say from past days of working with 3M 5200 you'll never see as sticky a caulking as that stuff is (WD-40 takes it right off, thank heaven).


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Jaws said:


> You cut a trench through the existing concrete and pour the stem wall is one continuous pour with the footing. The cold joint is now 6 inch below the concrete. Do you waterproof a front of that I guarantee you you have a lot better shot of it not leaking then a cut.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


You still have a cold joint on left and right side where old door opening was. 

With proper drainage, interior an exterior drain tiles, should already be there, and proper parging I don't think there be any issues. 

Every slab on grade here has a cold joint all the way around with just a keyway. 


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> You still have a cold joint on left and right side where old door opening was.
> 
> With proper drainage, interior an exterior drain tiles, should already be there, and proper parging I don't think there be any issues.
> 
> ...


Everyone does stuff different. 1 guy 1 day with my Brute I'll take the ditch all day, personally. A 2" joint on right and left side, well flashed, I'll take over 12-16' 

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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Wow, some of you guys really like to complicate ****.
The new pour does not have to bond with the old slab, why should it? It is surrounded on all four sides and underneath by aged concrete. It is not as if it has anywhere to slip to.
The poly is to comply with the code as you can not be sure if the garage was poured with a vapor barrier or not. 
Well, I guess you can be if you tear up part of the slab but why go through all that trouble when you can just throw down some poly to pass the inspection.

What would be the purpose of saw cutting the old slab down the middle then dig for a stem wall and footing? If I am understanding that correctly.

That just seems weird.

Andy.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Call a concrete guy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk





hdavis said:


> X2 on call a concrete guy.


I get “call a concrete guy”. We meet there tomorrow. But that doesn’t absolve me from setting the specs and knowing what we’re doing.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> I get “call a concrete guy”. We meet there tomorrow. But that doesn’t absolve me from setting the specs and knowing what we’re doing.


Yeah I love it when people say just asked a subcontractor, if I did that for most Subs without setting specs we would be building whatever is easiest and makes the most money for the subcontractors, for the most part. Regardless of price point. Not all, but quite often.

We live in a totally different climate, different amounts of rainfall, you have snow and the frost line excetera so my advice on this would be moot. When flattening a garage floor for living we have always just roughed up the substrate, cover cracks with a membrane and pour Pebble mud with a bonding primer and dowel with rebar every so often. 

Look forward to seeing what you got going there.

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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Look forward to seeing what you got going there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Are you coming up? I'll have an extra shovel ready!


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