# Speaker wire and fire code



## purplethumb (Jul 10, 2008)

Hey all. Please settle a question. I'm looking at a spool of 14 ga. speaker wire, RCA manufacture, torn label. Markings on the wire as follows:

(UL) 14AWGX2C E218256 CL2 75°C E204204 AWM 1 A 75°C 3V FT1

safe for in-wall use or not?

Thanks!


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

CL2 and CL3 are rated for behind wall use. Since your location is not in your profile (hint) no one knows where you're located and therefore, what your local codes are.

Call your local building enforcement division and see if CL2 will be good enough for them. I don't see why it wouldn't be. I'd suspect CL2 is _generally _residential usage.


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## purplethumb (Jul 10, 2008)

Thanks for the quick response, angus242. The question comes from a homeowner who has it installed already and who is concerned about safety. I'll dig up the code book and see if it needs to be replaced but it sounds like it should be ok in the meantime. I'm in Ontario, Canada, btw.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Is he putting 120 vac into it or driving a loudspeaker?


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Seriously!


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

purplethumb said:


> Hey all. Please settle a question. I'm looking at a spool of 14 ga. speaker wire, RCA manufacture, torn label. Markings on the wire as follows:
> 
> (UL) 14AWGX2C E218256 CL2 75°C E204204 AWM 1 A 75°C 3V FT1
> 
> ...


The money markings are the " (UL) " and " FT1and this are the ones I have been told to look for here in North Vancouver by my low voltage inspector. I think there is an insane amount of markings that qualify but this wire should be good in North America.

A sparky should confirm this.... You could ask at the local city hall as well.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

GettingBy said:


> Is he putting 120 vac into it or driving a loudspeaker?


14 ga isn't large at all for some high-end systems. Really good bass takes a LOT of power, and that doesn't wiggle through skinny wires very well.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> 14 ga isn't large at all for some high-end systems. Really good bass takes a LOT of power, and that doesn't wiggle through skinny wires very well.


I thought they don't like skinny wire because it screws up the amplifier's damping factor.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I'd have to dig out my Audio Cyclopedia to comment on that. I was a repair tech for many years, but never got into the really high end systems. The bass aspect though, is fer sure.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

GettingBy said:


> I thought they don't like skinny wire because it screws up the amplifier's damping factor.


It's resistance, like Tin said. Citing damping factor is not seeing the forest for the trees and the kind of thing snake oil salesman for speaker cable manufacturers speak of.

A lot of the high end stuff is very similar to the stuff you probably worked on Tin, especially if you were around in the tube era. A Mcintosh is not all that different from a Marantz.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

"FT1 Vertical Flame Test — per C.S.A.C22.2 No. 0.3-92 Para 4.11.1 A finished cable shall not propagate a flame or continue to burn for more than one (1) minute after five (5) fifteen (15) second applications of the test flame. There is an interval of fifteen (15) seconds between flame applications. The flame test shall be performed in accordance with Para 4.11.1 of Canadian Standards Association (CSA) Standard C22.2 No. 0.3. In addition, if more than 25% of the indicator flag is burned, the test cable fails. FT1 Cables can be used in Combustible buildings." * 


* Source http://www.delcowire.com/flametest.asp


More information on the UL rating system... 

Here is some of my private testing. I had installed some of this wire in a project that had no inspections and this wire is sold everyday here in North Vancouver. I wanted to see for myself if it burns...

Not very scientific but at least I don't have to worry about the flame spreading.






You have no way of knowing if a wire is safe unless it carries the proper markings. Make sure you can se them before you purchase it. To fail an inspection over a marking or loose your house to a fast spreading fire is not worth it.

Check with your city hall as well. If your not sure just bring in a length of wire in the morning and ask. Easy.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> I'd have to dig out my Audio Cyclopedia to comment on that. I was a repair tech for many years, but never got into the really high end systems. The bass aspect though, is fer sure.


Yes, and IIRC the connection is something like, a small speaker cone has to move pretty far to efficiently transmit long wavelength low frequency sounds, so the lows take more power. 
A huge speaker cone would be more efficient for the lows but you'd still need a lot of power to move it, so either way you need more amperes.

I can't believe some of these car audio setups use a kilowatt, just for the sound system. What's that you say? :laughing:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

You have the idea. :thumbsup:

1 KW does sound like a lot on the face of it, but even at moderate listening levels it can actually take more than that for truly high fidelity reproduction of some of the transients. Irrelevant for me, with the age of my ears. :laughing:


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Tinstaafl said:


> You have the idea. :thumbsup:
> 
> 1 KW does sound like a lot on the face of it, but even at moderate listening levels it can actually take more than that for truly high fidelity reproduction of some of the transients. Irrelevant for me, with the age of my ears. :laughing:


I have well over 10KW (Crown, Crest, Adcom), but it is NEVER in full usage and certainly not down 1 wire at any given time. More wattage means cleaner, more stable and truer sound reproduction when done properly.

I use 14/3 Extension cord wire and NL4FC connectors.

I have never seen an instance of ANY loudspeaker wire getting so hot that it would ignite! If it is under-gauged, the amp will clip or go in to thermal interruption.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

MALCO.New.York said:


> I have well over 10KW (Crown, Crest, Adcom), but it is NEVER in full usage and certainly not down 1 wire at any given time. More wattage means cleaner, more stable and truer sound reproduction when done properly.
> 
> I use 14/3 Extension cord wire and NL4FC connectors.
> 
> I have never seen an instance of ANY loudspeaker wire getting so hot that it would ignite! If it is under-gauged, the amp will clip or go in to thermal interruption.


Into 8 ohms this is at least 35 amps and 280 volts, peak. 
But music power ratings and sine wave power ratings are different.

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencycheckhigh.php
What?


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

MALCO.New.York said:


> I have well over 10KW (Crown, Crest, Adcom), but it is NEVER in full usage and certainly not down 1 wire at any given time. More wattage means cleaner, more stable and truer sound reproduction when done properly.


An automobile is not an audiophile environment. It actually took me awhile to get this through my head because I invested a lot in my two speaker no-subwoofer system.



> I use 14/3 Extension cord wire and NL4FC connectors.


In a car, or whole home audio for that matter, you might as well use 14/3 romex. In fact that's what I have connecting my tube amp to my single driver fostex speakers at home. On second thought, it's magnet wire (same difference), because I didn't need 14 ga for a two foot 20 amp run.



> I have never seen an instance of ANY loudspeaker wire getting so hot that it would ignite! If it is under-gauged, the amp will clip or go in to thermal interruption.


This took a turn for audiophilia, so it's not about spontaneous combustion but cable diameter affecting the frequency response of a driver.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

:laughing: He just wanted to know if the wire was rated for in-wall use. :laughing:

CL2 & CL3 are :thumbup:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Angus keep it on topic please :thumbsup::laughing:

[Removed quoted, copyrighted content used with no credit to author -- Mod.]


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Distance from speaker to amplifier Gauge
> Less than 80 feet 16
> 80 to 200 feet 14
> More than 200 feet 12


This is where I quit reading, because without driver impedance it's rubbish. An 8ohm driver will exhibit abberations with 16 guage wire at 16+ feet. A four ohm driver half that.

Soure: http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/speaker-cable-gauge

Edit: copyrighted rubbish.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

jmiller said:


> This is where I quit reading, because without driver impedance it's rubbish. An 8ohm driver will exhibit abberations with 16 guage wire at 16+ feet. A four ohm driver half that.
> 
> Soure: http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/speaker-cable-gauge


I didn't even read it. It's a copy and paste from some site. I thought I would do a reply quote with more info as angus didn't get to the point :laughing:

I'm curious to know if my QED Silver is fire rated now. Better be as I have it inside all my walls for my in wall speakers. At around $7 for a 3ft length it better be.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> At around $7 for a 3ft length it better be.


cost != code


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

jmiller said:


> This is where I quit reading, because without driver impedance it's rubbish. An 8ohm driver will exhibit abberations with 16 guage wire at 16+ feet. A four ohm driver half that.
> 
> Soure: http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/speaker-cable-gauge



Miller...

Where did the automobile come in to the picture?

As for the cables I use... I am referring to my Live P/A system. Sometimes my speakers are 100 feet apart.

It is ALWAYS a good idea to use the same gauge wire throughout the entire system regardless of distance or wattage.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

MALCO.New.York said:


> Where did the automobile come in to the picture?


Subliminally. Not used to wattage figures like that being thrown around wrt home audio maybe. Poor reading skillz, definitely.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

jmiller said:


> Subliminally. Not used to wattage figures like that being thrown around wrt home audio maybe. Poor reading skillz, definitely.


I understand!

You should hear some of the acoustic profiles of the warehouses I have to mic and power. NOW THAT is a serious challenge! Churches and Synagogues are fun as well! Certainly NOT audiophile environments! (Yes! We throw Raves in Churches and Synagogues!)


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

jmiller said:


> cost != code


I'm unsure because I had it shipped in from Europe and I have never seen any info about fire ratings for it. Not that I have ever seen speaker cable catch on fire. It would just be nice to know.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

MALCO.New.York said:


> You should hear some of the acoustic profiles


I want to go to there with you.

Rave in a church. Sign me up.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> I'm unsure because I had it shipped in from Europe and I have never seen any info about fire ratings for it. Not that I have ever seen speaker cable catch on fire. It would just be nice to know.


 If you put it in the wall it's regulated by code. Half the audiophile s... out there is terribly designed and not even UL listed.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

MALCO.New.York said:


> I understand!
> 
> You should hear some of the acoustic profiles of the warehouses I have to mic and power. NOW THAT is a serious challenge! Churches and Synagogues are fun as well! Certainly NOT audiophile environments! (Yes! We throw Raves in Churches and Synagogues!)


Your church nights anything like this. Always cracks me up when I watch this.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

And for those with a lil harder taste.....


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Your church nights anything like this. Always cracks me up when I watch this.



More like this!





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCWtqSE8lpE


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

angus242 said:


> And for those with a lil harder taste.....


First time I actually had to work to not LOL. If i LOL the GF comes and looks over shoulder. Close one.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

MALCO.New.York said:


> More like this!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reminds me of the days of clubbing at fabric and MOS till 6am. You should check out some of the fabric compilations if you like your music. That's the first place I ever heard mark farina.


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## purplethumb (Jul 10, 2008)

Thanks, all. Bottom line it's safe and to code and that's all I really need to know. One less job I'll have to do.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Malco remembered a website and story you might like to read after I thought about fabric. Hearing the sound system in fabric and Matter is a real eye opener and has to be heard to be believed but reading about them is dam interesting if your into that stuff. 

Look into that bodykinect dance floor system. Its unreal :thumbsup:

http://www.mondodr.com/venue/165935/matter_greenwich.html


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