# epoxy from tubes like Sika for pointing chimney?



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

superseal said:


> Just curious why you label stainless junk?...
> 
> I use a multitude of stainless materials for all my relines and am also quite familiar with solid flue materials and techniques.
> 
> ...


http://www.kschimney.com/services/goldenflue_warnock.php

Unless a flue is completely removed stainless liners choke at least a third of the flue away. thats why so many people have to buy an exhaust fan and a smoke guard..

If you want a lifetime warranty from stainless you best be prepared to keep a written log as to who and when you clean your flue and it best not exceed 12 months..
and you need to read what constitutes a "Lifetime Warranty" and what Constitutes a "Limited lifetime warranty".. 
I know it used to be 7 years...

And if you happen to have a flue fire which is more common than you might think you will actually change the molecular structure of the stainless leaving it very vulnerable to corrosion and failure.

But the stainless people won't cover the failure of their flue..

What brand liner do you install?

Are they UL tested to 2100 degrees?

http://goldenschimneylining.com/why_gf_liner.aspx


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

Found a video of someone who uses Jimmy's product and it will show the former and the spacers and the mix being poured


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Jimmy likes his flue solid:whistling


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

MAULEMALL said:


> And as I said it is UL Labs tested to 2100 degrees in one inch..Meaning UL Labritories have tested the product a states that At 1 inch you will have up to 2100 degree insulation so there is NO expansion and contraction of the brick through heat from the flue..
> .



Are you really claiming that zero heat escapes from 1" of this miracle flue liner? I can believe that the product itself doesn't expand or contract but not allowing any heat through in 1"? If that's the case sounds like we should be encasing our houses with it and forgetting about insulating. Strike a match and heat your house for the day. We'd be opening windows in winter to let our body heat escape.

Boy I'd sure hate to be the guy who has to tear that chimney down in 20 years.

That chimney needs rebuilding and a new cap.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

MAULEMALL said:


> Unless a flue is completely removed...]
> Who cares when it's a gas fired appliance?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> MAULEMALL said:
> 
> 
> > Unless a flue is completely removed...e liners, mortar, bricks, and concrete isn't.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

A long while ago a 16" chimney were built, resulting in only 4" in the throat. Nothing can be poured inside to bring these chimney up to safe standards without reducing the 8" flue pathway rendering the fireplace with improper draw.

If these chimneys need repair a total rebuild should be offered.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> MAULEMALL said:
> 
> 
> > Unless a flue is completely removed...ant to kill someone I would think you would..


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

JBM said:


> A long while ago a 16" chimney were built, resulting in only 4" in the throat. Nothing can be poured inside to bring these chimney up to safe standards without reducing the 8" flue pathway rendering the fireplace with improper draw.
> 
> If these chimneys need repair a total rebuild should be offered.


Thats why I said stainless is junk.. When pouring a cast liner you remove the flu tiles and all the back fill and inflate a form so that the original flue size is maintained.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Are you really claiming that zero heat escapes from 1" of this miracle flue liner? I can believe that the product itself doesn't expand or contract but not allowing any heat through in 1"? If that's the case sounds like we should be encasing our houses with it and forgetting about insulating. Strike a match and heat your house for the day. We'd be opening windows in winter to let our body heat escape.
> 
> Boy I'd sure hate to be the guy who has to tear that chimney down in 20 years.
> 
> That chimney needs rebuilding and a new cap.


Yes and this is a letter that supports the underwriter report ..

http://www.kschimney.com/services/goldenflue_warnock.php
http://www.kschimney.com/services/goldenflue_ullisted.php

I need to make this clear.. I am not employed by Jimmy Golden or anyone who produces, sells installs or in any way make a dime off the product..

I have worked for Jimmy but that was 10 years ago and I haven't even spoken to him in that time..I DO know he has a superior product and I know Jimmy to be an Honest guy. 

Oh and I lifted the web page I posted above so If it dissapears it's because I really don't have permission.. ahh wth I am going to add it as an attachment...


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

MAULEMALL said:


> dom-mas said:
> 
> 
> > well unless you want to kill someone I would think you would..
> ...


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> MAULEMALL said:
> 
> 
> > Flues for gas fired appliances can't run in solid fuel burning chases. They can run in chases that are no longer used only. So why would it matter if they choke off any part of an unused flue
> ...


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> MAULEMALL said:
> 
> 
> > Flues for gas fired appliances can't run in solid fuel burning chases. They can run in chases that are no longer used only. So why would it matter if they choke off any part of an unused flue
> ...


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

the only thing I saw on that lab sheet was about clearance to combustibles. says nothing about insulating properties. I will agree, that's pretty good, but no better than a clay liner with 2" of air around. I would NOT want to tear down a solid chimney. And they do need rebuilding (generally from the roof up) every 25-100 years.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> the only thing I saw on that lab sheet was about clearance to combustibles. says nothing about insulating properties. I will agree, that's pretty good, but no better than a clay liner with 2" of air around. I would NOT want to tear down a solid chimney. And they do need rebuilding (generally from the roof up) every 25-100 years.


but no better than a clay liner with 2" of air around... I don't understand the point..

And what if you had a chimney fire and you have cracked tiles half way down?? Would you tear down the whole chimney? 

I am going to say that I know I am going against the tide here and I can and will only explain what I actually know to be true..
If you have any questions I urge you to call Jimmy..

Great Guy and Easy to talk to.

Maybe you can work a demonstration or something.
800-446-5354 

If Tina answers ... well shes all that and a bag of chips...


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Ok, the original comment about the steel liners was in reference to gas fired appliances. You cannot shove a chimney for a gas fired appliance up a working chimney. Many chimneys new and old have multiple chases, or flues. Some for wood stoves, others for fireplaces and some for furnaces. The furnace gases have to go up in a duct on their own and cannot go up a flue that is still being used for a solid fuel device. It can share a flue with other devices, whether they are gas burning, or oil burning but they all have to be in seperate steel ducts or chimneys.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Ok, the original comment about the steel liners was in reference to gas fired appliances. You cannot shove a chimney for a gas fired appliance up a working chimney. Many chimneys new and old have multiple chases, or flues. Some for wood stoves, others for fireplaces and some for furnaces. The furnace gases have to go up in a duct on their own and cannot go up a flue that is still being used for a solid fuel device. It can share a flue with other devices, whether they are gas burning, or oil burning but they all have to be in seperate steel ducts or chimneys.


If I understand now ..If the chimney has multiple chases you use multiple forms and pour like normal.. Each device maintains it singularity.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

What I'm saying is.. If a gas appliance is vented through a chimney, it has it's own duct or chimney that runs up through the masonry chimney. the masonry chase might be 12"x12" and the gas appliance has a chimney that is only 6" around. That size is determined by the furnace installer and if the masonry chase is 6" square, whether the 6" diametre furnace flue is 1/3 smaller than the masonry chase makes no difference. 

and yes, each device, whether solid fuel burning or gas or oil have their own flue, i don't know about pouring anything. I'm talking about a unit masonry chimney


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> What I'm saying is.. If a gas appliance is vented through a chimney, it has it's own duct or chimney that runs up through the masonry chimney. the masonry chase might be 12"x12" and the gas appliance has a chimney that is only 6" around. That size is determined by the furnace installer and if the masonry chase is 6" square, whether the 6" diametre furnace flue is 1/3 smaller than the masonry chase makes no difference.
> 
> and yes, each device, whether solid fuel burning or gas or oil have their own flue, i don't know about pouring anything. I'm talking about a unit masonry chimney





> That size is determined by the furnace installer and if the masonry chase is 6" square, whether the 6" diametre furnace flue is 1/3 smaller than the masonry chase makes no difference.


 
I think what you are saying factually incorrect.. I would venture that if a mason just threw any sized flue in a chimney he would be tearing it down and redoing it to spec.. There are Min's and Maxes on all appliances and venting and the only thing a Mason does it follow the building code and or approved building plans/codes.

An oversized flue is as bad as an undersized flue.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

What I am saying that you aren't getting is that the size of the masonry flue has absolutely no bearing on the flue for the gas fired appliance. It's totally seperate from the masonry. It's a flue within a flue (the masonry one is no longer a flue it's only a chase.) 
Tell me, does it matter if a 4" duct goes through a 2x8 mechanical wall or a 2x12 mechanical wall? The duct is still 4" whatever size of a wall it goes through, so long as the wall is big enough that's all that matters. It's the same with the gas fired appliance, it only uses the masonry chimney as a way of concealing the steel chimney. 

And really this has nothing to do with the product that "Jimmy" sells. i only mentioned it because you said that steel liners for gas fired appliances will choke off 1/3 of the flue and my point is that the flue size for a gas fired appliance has nothing to do with the masonry chimney that it is inside of, so long as there is enough room for that steel chimney.

My problem with that stuff is that it 
a) gives a thermal bridge to the masonry units forget about clearance to combustibles because that's no the same, 
and b) it will make tear don and rebuild more difficult in the future. Chimneys are a high wear item, they need semi-regular maintenance but don't get it. Meaning that every 30-100 years they need to be rebuilt. Seems like it would be difficult if all that stuff is packed in there.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> What I am saying that you aren't getting is that the size of the masonry flue has absolutely no bearing on the flue for the gas fired appliance. It's totally seperate from the masonry. It's a flue within a flue (the masonry one is no longer a flue it's only a chase.)
> Tell me, does it matter if a 4" duct goes through a 2x8 mechanical wall or a 2x12 mechanical wall? The duct is still 4" whatever size of a wall it goes through, so long as the wall is big enough that's all that matters. It's the same with the gas fired appliance, it only uses the masonry chimney as a way of concealing the steel chimney. So you are saying that you are running an approved sized pipe up through a chase?
> Then who cares
> 
> ...


 I am not going to argue minutia with you.. If you have a geniuine interest call the toll free number..
If you want an argument ..Get married.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

MAULEMALL said:


> I am not going to argue minutia with you.. If you have a geniuine interest call the toll free number..
> If you want an argument ..Get married.



:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

really? what's my point? I was asking you that about why it would matter if a round flue is 1/3 smaller than a square flue when the square flue has nothing to do with what is being vented.

And thanks, I'll take a pass on the toll free #. Lots of stuff has been tested by lots of people with lots of letters behind their name. Most often tested in a lab for a few months, maybe. I have been fortunate enough to work on may chimneys that are over 100 years old and just now needing attention. I think that's a better lab and test than any other.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> really? what's my point? I was asking you that about why it would matter if a round flue is 1/3 smaller than a square flue when the square flue has nothing to do with what is being vented.
> 
> .


Here is what you don't get...When you shove a vent up a flue then the flue actually becomes a chase... It is no longer the flue.


And I don't have a dog in the hunt here so if you don't call I could care less...

It's actually your loss.

Oh and don't tell those space people who put those tiles on the metal shuttle thingy it won't work because it's impossible..


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

MAULEMALL said:


> Here is what you don't get...When you shove a vent up a flue then the flue actually becomes a chase... It is no longer the flue.
> 
> 
> Oh and don't tell those space people who put those tiles on the metal shuttle thingy it won't work because it's impossible..



First comment. Exactly, if a gas fireplace/furnace installer is shoving an undersized flue up an unused masonry flue then it won't be approved and will have to go somewhere else. 

Second comment, You never mentioned that this poured liner was designed by NASA to adhere tiles to the space shuttle


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> First comment. Exactly, if a gas fireplace/furnace installer is shoving an undersized flue up an unused masonry flue then it won't be approved and will have to go somewhere else.
> 
> Second comment, You never mentioned that this poured liner was designed by NASA to adhere tiles to the space shuttle


I didn't say space shuttle..I said shuttle thingy...

And to be honest it's not..

But the scientific principles are the same.. With basicly a different bonder...

Or the stuff around the insulator.. If you will...

And thats it for me ...Feel free to make the call. 

It's a toll free number..


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

MAULEMALL said:


> Thats why I said stainless is junk.. When pouring a cast liner you remove the flu tiles and all the back fill and inflate a form so that the original flue size is maintained.


Do you , or does anyone know of a tool gizmo that can pull out the flues, and re lay new ones?


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

JBM said:


> Do you , or does anyone know of a tool gizmo that can pull out the flues, and re lay new ones?


I don't ... But I think that with the bends and backfill of most older chimneys the cast in place comes closest..


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## Diamond D. (Nov 12, 2009)

I couldn't fathom how to remove the flue tile, without taking out at least one side of the chimney/chase.
But, maybe, somebody knows...



MAULEMALL said:


> Thats why I said stainless is junk.. When pouring a cast liner *you remove the flu tiles and all the back fill* and inflate a form so that the original flue size is maintained.






JBM said:


> Do you , or does anyone know of a tool gizmo that can pull out the flues, and re lay new ones?


There is a contraption to install flue tile in an existing chimney.
Many (many) years ago, I lined a brick chimney with this contraption I got from my supplier, spring loaded thing that slid down the pipe with some pins to hold the pipe, butter top of pipe and lower down chimney with one rope, pull second rope to retract pins. The bottom of the contraption was tapered to aline pipes. Pull back up and repeat.

A few years ago, I was rebuilding a brick heater chimney and went to use this contraption, nobody at the supply house knew what the heck I was talking about.
Luckily, I was able to rig up a similar thingamabob out of wood, and it worked out OK, but, nothing like the steel spring loaded one, that was really sweet.

If you really need one, I can draw you a picture.

Oh yeah, none of these chimneys ever had flue tile.

Necessity etc. etc.,
D.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

Diamond D. said:


> I couldn't fathom how to remove the flue tile, without taking out at least one side of the chimney/chase.
> But, maybe, somebody knows...
> 
> .


Jimmy made up a dinger... that has a weigted head that is offset so when it is spun it just bust the tiles to pieces and they fall into the smoke chamber along with the backfill,, and from there you just load buckets and toss it into the truck..

There is a lot of prep work with boards and heavy vacs and even vent fans on top to insure a clean job.. And it is always a point of pride that you could never tell we were there..


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## Diamond D. (Nov 12, 2009)

MAULEMALL said:


> Jimmy made up a dinger... that has a weigted head that is offset so when it is spun it just bust the tiles to pieces


I'd really like to see that dinger in action.
I bet it does a real bang up job. :laughing:

D.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

OP might be sorry bout opening this thread :laughing:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

oh, right. To the OP, You could use soimething ln a tube (not epoxy though) to get the homeowner by till spring but it needs to be repaired/rebuilt properly using mortar.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

TheItalian204 said:


> OP might be sorry bout opening this thread :laughing:


Yea he might have actually learned something..:laughing:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Diamond D. said:


> *I couldn't fathom how to remove the flue tile, without taking out at least one side of the chimney/chase.
> But, maybe, somebody knows...*
> 
> 
> ...


Hey D...couldn't resist this request on tile breakers - don't actually know who holds the patent though...maybe Jimmy :laughing:

And, to knock out two birds with one stone, I use Olympia chimney supply out of Scranton, PA. They got a custom shop that will do *anything* stainless :blink:


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Diamond D. said:


> I couldn't fathom how to remove the flue tile, without taking out at least one side of the chimney/chase.
> But, maybe, somebody knows...
> 
> 
> ...


I have seen a mason use this tool to replacy a clay liner, I didnt know there was any other way.


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