# Shingles butted too close together?



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Elk, just got bought out last month.

GAF, Ownership company merged Elk with GAF
Google GAF class action lawsuits. Ick, too many bad results.

Owens Corning. I would rather install Charmin if you want to intall toilet paper for shingles.

Tamlo and Certainteed have by far the best track record with my company for many, many years. 

Ed


----------



## dennis (Nov 17, 2004)

I agree with the humped shingle theory. It's not a good idea to lay the shingles over the ridge, especially a steep ridge, in cold weather and then install them. Most likely they were installed still stiff and humped and will not lay down.
You may be able to look under the shingles and see if the nails have been "blown" through the shingle. This would indicate that the shingles were not laying flat on the roof when nailed.
JMeO


----------



## hrscammisa (Mar 9, 2007)

hey guys just looking around and found this one wanted to know was this a lay over or tear off and new shingles layed ?


----------



## itwerx2 (Mar 20, 2007)

tear off and new shingles


----------



## itwerx2 (Mar 20, 2007)

Another shot of roof -completely separate area (upper back of house) from other picture (sunroom)


----------



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

My first thought reading this thread was the installer didnt push down on the humps of the shingles or nail them on the high spots to spread them out. That is the difference between the boss or journeyman and the help. Thats roofing. Now looking at the picture and you say 4 months later--then I feel my theory is true--they cant lay down more because they were not spread out or flat enough at the time of install. Maybe the paper was damp and had bubbles maybe the wood whatever but it wasnt laid flat enough at the install and thats the problem. There are a few different ways to load a roof so you you dont have to bend them over the ridge this was sloppy effort. If it doesnt leak your paying for it--cosmetic crap is always arguable.


----------



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

This last picture looks like a reroof over some curled up crunchy shingles. Ive seen more that I care to with this. The nails never completly set down because of the air pockets and debris from the old roof and after about 2 years the nails start sweating throw the shingle and get rusty. Then the installer tells the homeowner its some kind of moisture issue and sells them an expensive repair. The Fk'IN roofing business alway the same all over the country.


----------



## itwerx2 (Mar 20, 2007)

tom m- thanks for the good info. Just wondering about the "you will pay if it doesn't leak" part though.

I would say there is huge difference between "cosmetic" issues and improper, shoddy, unacceptable work.

Work that is improperly done does not have to be paid for.

And for work to qualify as properly done or "merchantable" it must "pass without objection in the trade " (as the lawyers say). In other words it must be up to at least average industry standards.

This work has met with a lot of ojections when I had it inspected by other roofers. They said it is way sub-standard and should be done over. It also failed the city building dept.'s inspection.

Plus, there is no way this house could currently be sold as having a new roof. The first thing a buyer would do is get estimates to fix the roof and negotiate the price accordingly. 

Most of this reroof job is plain bad work. No one supervised the crew and no one bothered to do a final inspection. After inspections by 3 other roofers there are now 25 issues on my list. (It was done, by the way, by a large and well-established company in this area.)


----------



## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

that's all installation error.fire his ass and tell him to get a factory job.
that's some rookie crap.anyone who's layed knows how no matter how they are stacked,or what brand.

i love the bit about a big well estabilished company.lol


----------



## Same Old (Mar 9, 2007)

A large and well established roofing _sales_ company. The guys who actually put your roof on might have started last week.


----------



## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

that's what I found funny.


----------



## itwerx2 (Mar 20, 2007)

Yep, funny thing is I was assured by the sales guy that the workers coming to do the job were the company's "most experienced crew" with "8 years experience each."

(Also, this has to be one of the simplest roof jobs ever. 18 squares, two story new England "salt box" style house, no valleys, one ridge extending from rake to rake, just three flat rectangular sections: prominent front section at 5:12 slope with 2 skylights and no dormers , smaller back section, and the small (less than 2 squares) sunroom section.)


----------



## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

so much exp. they couldn't read the bundle.


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

itwerx2 said:


> Yep, funny thing is I was assured by the sales guy that the workers coming to do the job were the company's "most experienced crew" with "8 years experience each."
> 
> (Also, this has to be one of the simplest roof jobs ever. 18 squares, two story new England "salt box" style house, no valleys, one ridge extending from rake to rake, just three flat rectangular sections: prominent front section at 5:12 slope with 2 skylights and no dormers , smaller back section, and the small (less than 2 squares) sunroom section.)



I thought I heard the saleman asy that between the 16 man crew, they had a total of 8 years experience.:laughing: 


My bad, but I just couldn't help myself. The others seem to already covered the serious stuff.


----------



## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

:laughing: I'm sorry its not funny but i can't help myself. You actual paid a guy for that half ass job.:laughing: Listen its time for you to file a suit in small claims court and get all your money back. Usually the limit is 5,000. Take many photos. To answer your question. NO the job is unacceptable and needs to be completely redone.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Before judging the contractor based on one photo taken from the top of a ladder aiming directly up the slope of the roof, I would like to at least see a different view of the roof, such as from the ground level in the front and/or rear yard.

It is way too easy to condemn someone elses work after the fact, especially without knowing both sides of the story.

Certainly, from this one vantage point only, there seems to be too much buckling going on.

I would not appreciate having 10-20 other roofers critiqueing my work based on one very biased description and one very unflattering photo if there were other factors to be considered.

Ed


----------



## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

ed is right.get us some more pics.
the way I see it IF a guy is gonna call that area done then he needs some serious training.
anyone can see something isn't right.I would hate to think of what flashings and detail cuts look like.Wonder if it's staright?


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Thanks RoofWiz,

I was sort of expecting to get stomped on for supposedly standing up for purported shoddy workmanship.

That is not my intent. I just feel a more unbiased photo and other point of view should be heard from before rushing to judgement.

Ed


----------



## itwerx2 (Mar 20, 2007)

I have not paid anything yet. 

The roof job was done last November. No supervision of the crew or final inspection. Next day sales guy calls and asks if I am happy with the roof. I tell him I'm not and describe what I'm seeing. Without even seeing the roof, he tells me (and this is verbatim), "There can't be any problems with the job because that's my most experienced crew." 

When he gets here to look at the work he gets indignant that I should so much as question the workmanship. He tells me (and this is verbatim), "You should be thanking us."

After he looks around he tells me to just wait until next June and the roof will look fine. As he's out on the sidewalk leaving, he says (and this is verbatim), "Well, the farther back you get the better it looks." 

A few weeks later, after inspections by two other roofers and a failed city inspection, I (very diplomatically) told the company guy the job needed to be redone. 

He said he would talk to the owner of the company. Never heard another word from them. No response. And this is verbatim, Nada. 

Finally, after more than three months passed I sent a letter asking them them to contact me within a week. Otherwise I would consider the job abandoned by them. Got a letter back from them but nothing has been decided yet as to corrective actions.

I appreciate all the thoughts and opinions you guys have been taking the time to write. Thanks.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

You stated that you got a letter back from them, and you put hat their replies were (verbatim) for the previous responses. 

Why did you not include the content of their position from the letter you received? Did they not state anything in their letter?

How does the roof look from the sidewalk? 

Could you please post a photo from the front and rear yard view vantage points, without using any zoom lens for hightened visibility.

Ed


----------



## itwerx2 (Mar 20, 2007)

Ed- The roofers letter states they would like to make some repairs. They listed 9 items for repair in response to my list of 25. They completely ignored the issue of doing the shingles over.

The roof looks better from the sidewalk than it does from closer in. From across the street it looks even better than that. From a block away it looks fine.

From the sidewalk, I can't see the curled shingles or shiners. But I can still see shingles buckling, fishmouths, the messed up ridge vent shingles (which they agreed to do over) gaps and humps in rake, sepentine new gutter across front eave, sloppy mastic on the skylight, etc. 

Maybe you missed the first picture I posted in #14 above. Not a close up (not even a very clear image), and not looking up the slope.

When looking at obviously buckled shingles, curling, fishmouths, areas that are not flat, etc. what difference does the angle/resolutuion make anyway?

Again, other roofers have inspected the work in person. That's what a lot of this is based on. They say poor workmanship and do over. 

Ed- Why the attack mode? If you think I am staging/trying to stack the deck, say so. 

BTW, why do you not comment on this company's "customer service" techniques.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

It is not an attack mode. I was just seeking the other side of the story. I do not recall the earlier photo posted, but I will recheck it out later tonight.

I do not like to rely on "other" roofers opinions, since they only have an incentive to agree with your pre-determined conclusions. Most industry studies state that over 90 % of all shingle roof installations do not meet the manufacturers specifications for warranty requirements, which most people are unaware of until too late. So, several "Other Roofers" opinions do not carry much clout in my mind.

No doubt, if you were to hire a legitimate roof consultant, they would be able to unmercifully scrutinize this workmanship as well. Then, at least, you would have a respected professional providing a proper review of the installation.

To be fair to the roofing contractor as well, he should be invited to meet with the roof consultant for the inspection to provide any related feedback and to either agree or disagree with the consultants opinion.

To be even more fair, the cost of the consultants fee should either be split in half to minimize bias, or at least be paid for by the losing party.

If he has a proper business sense and is ethical about his companies workmanship, he may finally realize that your complaints have substance and are legitimate, rather than just whining about bumpy shingles.

Ed


----------



## itwerx2 (Mar 20, 2007)

Well, speaking of pictures, I'm just wondering if this is acceptable roofing work along the rakes? We were left with several areas like this.


----------



## itwerx2 (Mar 20, 2007)

Another area of the rake. This is looking up from the bottom corner of the rake.The bottom of the gutter is in the foreground (right half of the picture). That's the metal edge levitating above the top of the fascia. Acceptable?


----------



## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm not a pro but have done my share of roofing over the last 4 decades and the term 'shoddy' comes to mind.


----------



## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

Where is the drip edge? Itwerx2 are you a HO fishing for ammo. You really don't need much


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Unfortunately, drip edge is typically not a requirement, just a recomendation by the manufacturers.

Ed


----------



## itwerx2 (Mar 20, 2007)

PA wood- No drip edge was installed at the rakes. Other bids I received included it but the company I went with said I didn't need it and talked me out of it. If I knew then (which was next to nothing), what I know now about roofing installations that would not have happened. They will be added when all is said and done.

Yes, this is my roof. I've already had live inspections by other roofers, the Tamko rep., and a failed city inspection is on the books for "ammo." 

I'm here for additional info and expertise. Looking for more viewpoints on the "whys" behind "what" I'm seeing with this installation.


----------



## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

Thanks for posting on ContractorTalk.com. The Moderators of this forum would prefer if you post Do It Yourself related topics on our sister site www.DIYChatroom.com

ContractorTalk.com is designed for professional contractor's to discuss issues and topics related to the construction and remodeling industries. Many of our professional contractors are also members at DIYChatroom.com and are looking forward to assist you with your needs.

Please take a moment to post your question at www.DIYChatroom.com If your not already a member of DIYChatroom.com you can sign up for a free account by going to http://www.DIYChatroom.com/register.php/

We apologize for any inconvenience that this may have caused. This thread has been closed.


----------

