# Piecework Explained



## Paul Burns (Jan 17, 2006)

A lot of people/painters are skeptical of piecework because through the years SOME contractors have used the system to rip-off their painters. They bid their jobs LOW to get the work, and then give their painters a percentage to paint it that is so low it is almost impossible for the painters to make good money.

That example is the exact opposite of how it should work. You should bid the work as HIGH as possible so that your painters can earn as MUCH as possible.

The beginning example is why piecewrk has gotten such a bad rap over the years. When painters are struggling to make money, their quality probably HAS to drop. Sort of like new home paint contractors. Since new home painters don't get paid much, they have to use cheap products and rush through jobs. That is why you wil see VERY few, real nice new home paint jobs.

But if you do the opposite and charge a lot of money, your painters will do EXCEPTIONAL quality jobs, simply because they WANT to keep working for you. When painters find out that they have the opportunity to earn 30.00 or more per hour, they WILL produce quality, job after job, year after year.

We brought on a new crew the other week. We put them on a large job with an established crew. There were three of them that wanted to split their earnings evenly between them. So I gave them a little more than 600.00 worth of work for that day. They worked 8 hours and each earned a little more than 200.00, or 25.00 per hour, but they were still skeptical. They hadn't been with us long enough to trust me. That usually takes about a month or so. Anyway, I saw their quality, it was good, so I offered them another job by themselves. They said that I hadn't bid the job high enough and didn't want it. I said, you know that you can't earn less than 17.00 per hour right, but they still didn't want it. So I gave it to a crew that has been with us for awhile.

The established crew completed the job that I just mentioned and I asked them how much money they made. The 2 of them made 350.00 each per day that they were on the job. I said GREAT, but you know what, that other crew declined that job. One of my guys said, I know why. It's because one of those guys just talks all day long and does very little work.

So what is happenng with that crew, and I've seen it all my life, including in my own company, is that they have 2 guys bustin ##### in order to make enough money for themselves AND pay the dead weight guy.

See if those 2 good guys had of left the dead weight guy at home, they could be earning 350.00 per day each too!

Since this was a recent event, and real "rubber meeting the road" stuff, I just wanted to share how quickly a piecework system can identify dead weight. By the hour, it can take weeks, months, or years. At least it did in my company. It's just too hard to watch everybody, all of the time. Painters really don't want to tattle on dead weight guys, especially if they know that tattling won't give them that much more money per hour anyway. Piecework is opposite. It identifies them by the system itself.

Paul


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

So your subbing, gotcha.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I'm thinking this through, not from a paint perspective, but more in general, and I have a question:

How does a system that's set up to reward speed with greater per hour income translate into a higher quality end product? Does the amount of per hour compensation directly corrolate to quality? For instance, if I took my worker with the crappiest workmanship and tripled his pay, would his quality at least double?


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Naaa, hes talking about giving a crew the chance to make more than they normally would working for a regular joe, i'm sure that the touchups and repairs would have to be completed by the same crew before payment... basically subbing work. Crew A has joe, sam and wes... before subbing they made 12.00 per hour but did good work, after subbing they realized that every smoke break was costing them 25.00 and decided to "Getrdun". Now they make 200.00 per day instead of 125.00, and work less hours. Simple, last step before running out and getting a license of your own.  I've done it before myself, but I called it subbing.

"Dudes, see that house?"
"Yah"
"Paint it right and fast, you can work 6 hours and day and make X to split yourselves"
"Sweet"


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

mdshunk said:


> I'm thinking this through, not from a paint perspective, but more in general, and I have a question:
> 
> How does a system that's set up to reward speed with greater per hour income translate into a higher quality end product? Does the amount of per hour compensation directly corrolate to quality? For instance, if I took my worker with the crappiest workmanship and tripled his pay, would his quality at least double?


I pay my subs piece work and I think it partially does equate to quality. Reason: If you are very upfront about your expectations and they don't live up to those expectations the sub fixes it on their penny, therefore they have incentive to do it right the first time. Obviously the speed incentive goes without explination.

Here is a situation I have had a few times and causes me to put my foot down immediately. BTW this problem only arises when I hire a sub that doesn't work whith his crew. I pay a slightly higher piece work rate than everyone in my area. I do this because I have higher expectations than most of my comeptitors. I actually expect the crews to do more than is usually required... Ok so I pay the owner of the subcotnracting company more money and he in turn pockets the difference and doesn't pay his crew any higher. Then I go out and say why didn't you setup tarps? Why didn't you do this why didn't you do that? The answer from my subcontractor's employee: "We aren't paid to do that." Like I said I immediately put my foot down. Again I also prefer to hire subs that work with their crews because it prevents all this from happening in the first place.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

thanks for sharing Paul:clap:


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## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

Brushslingers said:


> Naaa, hes talking about giving a crew the chance to make more than they normally would working for a regular joe, i'm sure that the touchups and repairs would have to be completed by the same crew before payment... basically subbing work. Crew A has joe, sam and wes... before subbing they made 12.00 per hour but did good work, after subbing they realized that every smoke break was costing them 25.00 and decided to "Getrdun". Now they make 200.00 per day instead of 125.00, and work less hours. Simple, last step before running out and getting a license of your own.  I've done it before myself, but I called it subbing.
> 
> "Dudes, see that house?"
> "Yah"
> ...



Hey Ben can you you explain in detail in how your subbing works? what i mean is how do you agree on the dollar amount with the subs? so its fair every time. right now i have two hourly employees and they are great been with me a long time, but every now and then (thanks goodness it doesnt happen often, i unerestimate things, well having hourly employees, im not hurtin anybody but myself, I get over it quickly and move on, my biggest frear of having subs and piece workers is having a exact science for each estimate, I am a eyeballer all the way, and pretty darn good at it, but for that rare occasion i miss something, im wondering how to have a double check on it, the only way i can possible think of is having a spread sheet with every detail of repainting on it with production rates fro everything. So anyone know a easier way :w00t: thanks for any tips

dave mac


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## Vermy (Aug 28, 2005)

I notice that most piecework is given out on low quality jobs, jobs where its ok to be sloppy, skip a few prep steps, cheat a little there, cheat a little here...you know what i'm sayin? I don't notice it too much on good quality painting jobs because most contractors are scared to give piecework on their jobs. I guess quality control is harder that way.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

See, that was where Paul had me confused... PEICEWORK, is having a painter that only does one thing, and well, say doors. This one door painter comes in and paints doors ALL day long, but he knows he's making 75.00 per door. Trim painter makes 1.00 per foot, all day he paints trim and know everytime he moves his knees he makes a buck. Is this new? Nope, way they union guys ran things for years... I was painting trim off that model 25 years ago. What Paul is taking about is having two, three or more "sub" companies, owning them yourself is foolish, then you are footing the bill for taxes and costing you more per week than you should be spending... which have thier own license and insurance on file. You bid and sign the job for what you would do it for, take 20% and pay these guys the rest with a scope of work to insure they know what you bid. Basically you make yourself a "bid service" that insures they get work, and in turn they pay your salary. Most builders "mark up" between 15-20% for thier pocket anyhow.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

Hmm to me I see nothing whear Paul say he has one painter doing only doors, or only windows:no: wonder whear you came up with that??
To me piece work and sub are very similar but since i dont really do either I dont know for sure thats why i was asking What i meant on the agreement was or scope of work about subbing was more of what type of sytem do you do to have your subs agree on price. Like well this house is quated at 4,000 dollars see here this is the contract i get 20% and you get the rest. To me that doesnt seem to be very scientific, or arguable if the subs say," well thats not enough" this is gonna take a long time, and i need more money.

What i have seen from the big company in my town, that run 50 men ,just doing repaints, is a scope of work they give to the client, and the sub (usually that works only for them) with a detailed sheet, listing square footage of the siding and numbers of windows, and the kind of condition they are all in. well iguess i just answered my own question, lol now whear can i buy one of these sheets, and put it into a computer to spit out estimates, becasuse i sure dont want to make one lol, i know of one company in my town the, paint pros that have one on their lap tops and all the estimators use them, for estimates, and these estemators have no painting experience in most cases, that amazes me:notworthy 

dave mac

ps
it used to be when i was painting, that contractors that had people painting for them and not painting themselves and making money amazed me, now its contractors that have people estimating jobs for them that havnt even had any painting experience amazes me even more.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Brushslingers said:


> So your subbing, gotcha.


Not exactly.
If a sub takes for ever to complete a project they lose their shirt.
Their $17 per hour is guaranteed. They just want to make more.

Also, a sub runs their own overhead, insurance etc.
these guys don't.

A sub does not get a regular paycheque and benefits
These guys do.

Many other differences too


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

mdshunk said:


> I'm thinking this through, not from a paint perspective, but more in general, and I have a question:
> 
> How does a system that's set up to reward speed with greater per hour income translate into a higher quality end product? Does the amount of per hour compensation directly corrolate to quality? For instance, if I took my worker with the crappiest workmanship and tripled his pay, would his quality at least double?


If the market wage for a painter is $17 and they get $30 plus benefits,
why would they want to get fired


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

George Z said:


> Not exactly.
> If a sub takes for ever to complete a project they lose their shirt.
> Their $17 per hour is guaranteed. They just want to make more.
> 
> ...


If your running things that way AND paying for thier taxes, WC, etc... your losing money.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Brushslingers said:


> See, that was where Paul had me confused... PEICEWORK, is having a painter that only does one thing, and well, say doors. This one door painter comes in and paints doors ALL day long, but he knows he's making 75.00 per door. Trim painter makes 1.00 per foot, all day he paints trim and know everytime he moves his knees he makes a buck. Is this new? Nope, way they union guys ran things for years... I was painting trim off that model 25 years ago. What Paul is taking about is having two, three or more "sub" companies, owning them yourself is foolish, then you are footing the bill for taxes and costing you more per week than you should be spending... which have thier own license and insurance on file. You bid and sign the job for what you would do it for, take 20% and pay these guys the rest with a scope of work to insure they know what you bid. Basically you make yourself a "bid service" that insures they get work, and in turn they pay your salary. Most builders "mark up" between 15-20% for thier pocket anyhow.


Ben, don't assume. Try asking instead.
A "piece" is not a door, a window or even some square feet.
A piece is a time "unit"
Works very different. 
You are very wrong in your assumptions regarding insurance, subs etc.
We don't use the same system as Paul's even though ours is fixed compensation as well.
But I know how Paul's works from older posts of his and you couldn't be further from reality.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Brushslingers said:


> If your running things that way AND paying for thier taxes, WC, etc... your losing money.


No.
We have been running things similarly.
Gross profit margins: 50% or more.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Dave Mac said:


> Hmm to me I see nothing whear Paul say he has one painter doing only doors, or only windows:no: wonder whear you came up with that??


Was explaining why I was confused with the term peicework, since the way I described was what peicework, used to be. I even stated it was something the old union companies did, perhaps you didn't read what I said.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Brushslingers said:


> Was explaining why I was confused with the term peicework, since the way I described was what peicework, used to be. I even stated it was something the old union companies did, perhaps you didn't read what I said.


Ben, maybe the term "piecework" is wrong


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

George Z said:


> Ben, don't assume. Try asking instead.
> A "piece" is not a door, a window or even some square feet.
> A piece is a time "unit"
> Works very different.
> ...



Wow, you are quite vindictive, ok i'm way out in left field, have no clue how to run a business or qoute a job, I so suck, wish I knew the tax laws and such.. you must be a god in Canada. Sorry I replied.

Perhaps you should try re-reading what I said.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Brushslingers said:


> Wow, you are quite vindictive, ok i'm way out in left field, have no clue how to run a business or qoute a job, I so suck, wish I knew the tax laws and such.. you must be a god in Canada. Sorry I replied.
> 
> Perhaps you should try re-reading what I said.


Never said that.
I don't doubt you run a great business.
All I am saying is: when you are describing what someone is doing 
and I know for a fact that is not what they are doing, what am I supposed to say?
No need to attack and get personal. It is a discussion. My country of origin has nothing to do with that.
Please describe vindictive (where?)


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

George Z said:


> Never said that.
> I don't doubt you run a great business.
> All I am saying is: when you are describing what someone is doing
> and I know for a fact that is not what they are doing, what am I supposed to say?
> ...


Actually I stated that I was mistaken, since PEICEWORK is an old union term for what I described and that was what had me confused, he is talking about a form of subbing and could save money on taxes by buying them a business license. Really dude, not sure how it is in Canada but here in the states, the tax laws are quite harsh when you pay your people lots of money... you have to match 1 for 1, in fact.. here in Florida you have to pay WC based on how much you pay your employees, so if you pay them 800 a week, your WC AND Taxes go up alot. Of course, if you don't pay attention to that fact, you will go belly up but hey. Like I said, stuff is prolly different in Canada, thus, making a difference in your country of origin.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Brushslingers said:


> Actually I stated that I was mistaken, since PEICEWORK is an old union term for what I described and that was what had me confused, he is talking about a form of subbing and could save money on taxes by buying them a business license. Really dude, not sure how it is in Canada but here in the states, the tax laws are quite harsh when you pay your people lots of money... you have to match 1 for 1, in fact.. here in Florida you have to pay WC based on how much you pay your employees, so if you pay them 800 a week, your WC AND Taxes go up alot. Of course, if you don't pay attention to that fact, you will go belly up but hey. Like I said, stuff is prolly different in Canada, thus, making a difference in your country of origin.


_"you must be a god in Canada"_ does not mean taxes are different in Canada.

Anyway, taxes insurance etc. are not much different here.
How does someone having margins of 50% mean belly up?
A percentage means exactly the same in Canada or anywhere else.
Paul's companies are not in Canada. 
They are in the US (one in your own state)


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

George Z said:


> _"you must be a god in Canada"_ does not mean taxes are different in Canada.
> 
> Anyway, taxes insurance etc. are not much different here.
> How does someone having margins of 50% mean belly up?
> ...


When did I say I was talking about Pauls companies? Or his style of business other than to compare it to subbing and state he could make more money in his pocket with real subs other than employees? Give me his business name, i'll be happy.. other than that.. don't read too much into what I post without actually reading it.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

We will have to respectfully disagree and call it a night then.
It is going nowhere anyway.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

George Z said:


> We will have to respectfully disagree and call it a night then.
> It is going nowhere anyway.


Agreed. Night.


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## Paul Burns (Jan 17, 2006)

*Dave Mac and others on the fence about piecework.*

There is a thing/phenomenon (maybe not correct verbiage) that is known and shows that PEOPLE will expand their work to the time allotted for it to be completed.

Example – When I was young I worked for this really good contractor. Every day we would go into a re-paint and start putting down dropcloths. And almost every morning, I though “Oh ****, we'll never finish all of this” but every day at 4:00 the tasks were finished, brushes/tools were cleaned and we were hopping in the truck to go home. Now obviously, NO painter out there can know exactly how much work can be done by any certain crew on any certain job, so SOME days were easier than others. But whether they were easy or hard, we still worked from 7:30 AM till 4:00 PM and exactly ½ hour for lunch.

So what I am saying Dave, is that although you have been VERY happy with your results, It is my STRONG feeling that if given the chance/opportunity your guys would produce a LOT more work for you EVERY day, than you now expect them to and are happy with. I mean just think of how much more money that they and you would make if their production just increased by 10%. Now think about 25-100%!

Dave, I read a post of yours yesterday where you described how hard and confusing it would be for you to switch to a piecework or variation there of type of system. I’m sorry my friend, but it is NOT very hard at all. I’m really ticked-off that you haven’t at least TRIED it already! Just kidding of course, but please do think about it. I’m confident that it could change your life just as drastically if not more than when you JUMPED out of the bucket. Imagine if that is true!

Good luck,
Paul


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

Paul Burns said:


> There is a thing/phenomenon (maybe not correct verbiage) that is known and shows that PEOPLE will expand their work to the time allotted for it to be completed.
> 
> Example – When I was young I worked for this really good contractor. Every day we would go into a re-paint and start putting down dropcloths. And almost every morning, I though “Oh ****, we'll never finish all of this” but every day at 4:00 the tasks were finished, brushes/tools were cleaned and we were hopping in the truck to go home. Now obviously, NO painter out there can know exactly how much work can be done by any certain crew on any certain job, so SOME days were easier than others. But whether they were easy or hard, we still worked from 7:30 AM till 4:00 PM and exactly ½ hour for lunch.
> 
> ...


This post/thread has been merged with the Piecework thread since it is the same topic. We don't need a new thread for every new thought... this is starting to get a bit ridiculous.


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

George Z said:


> Not exactly.
> If a sub takes for ever to complete a project they lose their shirt.
> Their $17 per hour is guaranteed. They just want to make more.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the best of both worlds for both parties (employer and employee).


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