# change order due to vague specifications?



## ElIngeniero (Feb 7, 2008)

..I've been 'awarded' a job and we've begun work. It's cheap but we should come out alive. However, there's a bit of soil stabilization that has me a little worried that I may lose a somewhat loyal customer. The GC underbid the Lime stablization and is in a bind. My price is almost double what his is per ton and he's beating me up but I really can't budge much. I can't buy the lime for the price he has in his contract with the owner. I know he likely plugged in the cheapest bid he received on each line item and I'm assuming someone quoted him Agricultural Lime...or they simply guessed at the price and were WAYYY low.

Here's the issue--the specs simply state to supply lime for soil stabilization. There is no detailed spec beyond that. Nothing says 'quicklime' or calcium oxide so I'm thinking about recommending that he change order the project since there's no spec. I've built a reputation as being pretty honest and don't want to look like a slimeball...so I ask you all, what's your opinion on this? If he change orders it, I basically have to offer him a quote that says 'Provide agricultural lime for soil stabilization' as well as a change order that reads "substitute quicklime for agricultural lime"...so I'll ultimately look like the idiot to the owner.


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## ElIngeniero (Feb 7, 2008)

For what it's worth, the GC is pretty good to work with. He pays QUICKLY. We get 75% of his sitework packages. He usually beats us up on every bid but unfortunately that's become the norm through this economy. 

He'll likely be in the red on this one if I don't help him out on this one.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

ElIngeniero said:


> ..I've been 'awarded' a job and we've begun work. It's cheap but we should come out alive. However, there's a bit of soil stabilization that has me a little worried that I may lose a somewhat loyal customer. The GC underbid the Lime stablization and is in a bind. My price is almost double what his is per ton and he's beating me up but I really can't budge much. I can't buy the lime for the price he has in his contract with the owner. I know he likely plugged in the cheapest bid he received on each line item and I'm assuming someone quoted him Agricultural Lime...or they simply guessed at the price and were WAYYY low.
> 
> Here's the issue--the specs simply state to supply lime for soil stabilization. There is no detailed spec beyond that. Nothing says 'quicklime' or calcium oxide so I'm thinking about recommending that he change order the project since there's no spec. I've built a reputation as being pretty honest and don't want to look like a slimeball...so I ask you all, what's your opinion on this? If he change orders it, I basically have to offer him a quote that says 'Provide agricultural lime for soil stabilization' as well as a change order that reads "substitute quicklime for agricultural lime"...so I'll ultimately look like the idiot to the owner.


I've heard about using lime to stabilize soil, but it generally isn't done around here. The usual fix is to undercut and bridge over with 2' of surge stone or shot rock. So maybe I can learn something from your problem. What is the difference between agricultural lime and the lime that is used to stabilize?


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## Builderbob 72 (Dec 15, 2010)

So you're willing to "loan" him your reputation and money so that you can get future work? Sounds like a losing proposition to me. 

As you said, everyone is getting beat up due to this economy, why should you take a hit for doing your job correctly.

It's the GC's fault, let him eat the cost.

Stupid should hurt
-Ron White


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

I do not understand why the GC bid that portion if it is up to you to provide the material ??

A change order is not going to fly since it said "provide lime for soil stablization." The engineer is going to say "you should know which lime to use for soil stablization.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

I agree with rino, perhaps you could offer for the GC to purchase the material, and he could gain from the mark up that you would typically charge.

I also have no idea what the difference is in lime. Other than like pelleted vs. hydrated.


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## WG Consulting (Jun 7, 2011)

First I would ask if you are stabilizing a building pad or a parking/driving area. If you are using it in an area where footers are not being dug then I would recommend using a stabilization fabric similar to Tensar TX160. We just used it as a substitute for lime on a military project and the US Army Corp was very happy with it. Also see if you can use a recycled concrete if it is available as your crusher run. After it is placed and sets up it will act very similar to concrete treated stone. These alternates are less expensive in the Mid Atlantic than using lime. However, it is not your fault that your GC did not qualify his bid correctly and should not have tried to piece mill his bid from different contractors.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Any Geo-Tech guys involved that may have a say in this?


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## CatD8T (Apr 26, 2011)

WG Consulting said:


> First I would ask if you are stabilizing a building pad or a parking/driving area. If you are using it in an area where footers are not being dug then I would recommend using a stabilization fabric similar to Tensar TX160. We just used it as a substitute for lime on a military project and the US Army Corp was very happy with it. Also see if you can use a recycled concrete if it is available as your crusher run. After it is placed and sets up it will act very similar to concrete treated stone. These alternates are less expensive in the Mid Atlantic than using lime. However, it is not your fault that your GC did not qualify his bid correctly and should not have tried to piece mill his bid from different contractors.


I agree with this. You can't eat the cost, so I would throw that option out. If you want to help him, find an alternative cheaper solution. In my experience, most of the time if you explain to the engineer,

"Hey Bob Smith, listen, the G.C. screwed up his bid on this cost. I need to try to help him out since he is a good customer of mine and I have come up with some alternatives that would lessen the blow. Would any of these work for you?" 

they tend to work with you on it. We use lime a lot, and there is usually alternatives. If you are using lime, chances are you have wet soils. If you lime requirement is low, then you may be able to dry the soils mechanically. If it is higher, chances are you can do a soil cement mixture at a lower percentage and for less cost. How about remove/replace is that an option? As previously stated, bridging works as well. Were you planning on doing the lime yourself? If not and you were going to sub the spreading and/or mixing, how about letting the G.C. sub directly?


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

CatD8T said:


> "Hey Bob Smith, listen, the G.C. screwed up his bid on this cost. I need to try to help him out since he is a good customer of mine and I have come up with some alternatives that would lessen the blow. Would any of these work for you?"
> 
> they tend to work with you on it.


Some of them do. Some of them say "it's my way or the hiway". Problem is, if you suggest something and it doesn't work, and they have some problem down the road (pun intended), you're stuck with the responsibilty and the liability, even it the cause is something totally unrelated. "oh, that paving failed cause the excavator used lime "A" rather than lime "B". (never mind the sinkhole) Safest thing to do is stick with the specs. GC may just have to eat one. Just try to make it as painless as possible, if he is a good customer.


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

mudpad said:


> Some of them do. Some of them say "it's my way or the hiway". Problem is, if you suggest something and it doesn't work, and they have some problem down the road (pun intended), you're stuck with the responsibilty and the liability, even it the cause is something totally unrelated. "oh, that paving failed cause the excavator used lime "A" rather than lime "B". (never mind the sinkhole) Safest thing to do is stick with the specs. GC may just have to eat one. Just try to make it as painless as possible, if he is a good customer.



Agreed, let the important decision making up to the geo-techs and the engineers. Never suggest something that could come back and haunt you, especially, a sub-par material. This is not your fight, the GC screwed himself. I guarantee if the shoe was on the other foot, the GC would make you eat it.

I wouldn't be so blunt and tell him to go pound sand, but I would try to help him out in ways that wouldn't hurt your bottom line.


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## Elyrain (Dec 17, 2007)

If your looking for clarification I would have the GC write an RFI asking if product A is acceptable. If not then because the specs were vague product B would incur an additional cost of, $X. 

Unless it's a greenbook job, then you should know what the answer is going to be.


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## JDavis21835 (Feb 27, 2009)

You need to provide some details for us to help in material selection. Are you actually stabilizing? That is adding over 7% by weight, of a stabilization product to the soil. Or are you modifying and drying? 

If modifying/drying, you can look at portland, it will take less, but I doubt is going to cheaper. You can try flyash, which works good, and is cheaper, but you are going to need to add more material by weight to get the same result. Another option would be Lime Kiln Dust. Similar to quicklime, but not as potent. Again, more will be required for the same result. 

For those not in the know, Quicklime is cooked in a kiln just like portland cement. The chemical reaction created when water comes in contact with the material creates heat, and just like portland, it crystallizes as it cures.


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## CatD8T (Apr 26, 2011)

rino1494 said:


> Agreed, let the important decision making up to the geo-techs and the engineers. Never suggest something that could come back and haunt you, especially, a sub-par material. This is not your fight, the GC screwed himself. I guarantee if the shoe was on the other foot, the GC would make you eat it.
> 
> I wouldn't be so blunt and tell him to go pound sand, but I would try to help him out in ways that wouldn't hurt your bottom line.


I understand what you are saying. Guess I just look at it as an opportunity to separate yourself from the pack. Making the statement of 'This is why you hired me rather than the other guy.' I would only do it if I was confident in my decision and/or recommendations. Conversing with the engineer on the DL has typically worked for me and let him come up with the idea and present it to "owner". In reality, you need the idea to work, but his approval will remove liability.


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## WG Consulting (Jun 7, 2011)

I think some of you are looking at this the wrong way. Just because you make a suggestion to an owner for a substitute product or means and method does not put you at risk. To be a good contractor in today's environment you must make those cost saving suggestions. The engineer of record or the geo-tech will still need to make the final decision and place their stamp on the plans. You should never change something without approval that should not even need to be said. Get your GC to send in an RFI concerning the matter and see what shakes out.


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## ElIngeniero (Feb 7, 2008)

We found a solution that works GREAT for us and keeps the GC happy as well.

We dug ~40 test pits to a borrow area. We found an area where we can borrow good material and bury the unsuitable. As it turns out, the GC will pay us to move twice as much dirt as originally bid and still come out better than if he uses lime.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

congrats!!! the best end game is that everybody gets fed...glad it worked out for you!


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