# Eldorado Durango



## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

A builder I have been doing the tapered columns tossed a drawing of a large modern home he is bidding. Lots of stone. I asked if it was "real" stone he said yes, true stone veneer.
I get the specs this afternoon and upon reading find out it's cultured stone.
I have never used this material. I know it's very common on large commercial buildings. And it comes up a lot here when I search.
Problem is I no idea how to bid this. I know pricing is frowned upon here.....but if anyone would like to send me any helpful PMs, please do.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

This stone?

http://www.eldoradostone.com/products/stone/nationwide-profiles/mountain-ledge/

Ive used it and similar variants. I like to use a light buff color in the mortar.


----------



## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Run Forrest Run...:laughing:


----------



## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

Truestone is a brand of natural panels made in China, and used quite a bit out here. Not sure if that is what you mean, but if so it is real stone pieces glued together into pieces aprox 2 feet long, by 6" tall. 

It looks ok, used a lot on modern style buildings.
Dave
http://www.rcpblock.com/stoneveneer_natural.html


----------



## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Interesting that he told you fake rock is real stone veneer.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> Interesting that he told you fake rock is real stone veneer.


Doesnt that chap your knickers


----------



## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

yeah, I don't know how it went from "true stone" to Eldorado Durango, but Karl, your message box is full 
Dave


----------



## brick (May 8, 2012)

my two cents, my mechanic charges the same labor rate whether its a pinto or a porche. Personally, I would price this just like a true stone veneer. The cultured stone goes up faster, but there's prep work that you'll be responsible for, I'm sure. He could hire the tile guy, but then who's scaffolding the job? You're a masonry contractor and that's that. Anyways, this is a tricky question without all the factors present. I'm sure you know anything I could dream up anyways.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I won't give you my pricing cause it has no bearing on your area but I figure on 40sqft a day for tight fitting drystack, and maybe 60sqft for a larger stone with joints. The sqft amounts include time involved in scaffolding, attaching lath and parging etc... But like everything else it depends on how many windows and doors, inside corners, outside corners, site conditions etc...Oh and that is for an installer and a labourer/runner. I don't do a lot so I'm a bit slow

Taking a look at the product I would say it is on the slow side of install

If you've neve installed it before I would expect to loose the first day of install in figuring out how much to press it on, how long to hold it on, mortar consistency etc... One thing that I like to do with the drystack stuff is to use a black mortar so that you can't see the substrate behind the joints.


----------



## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

dbrons said:


> yeah, I don't know how it went from "true stone" to Eldorado Durango, but Karl, your message box is full
> Dave



Thanks, yes it was full, don't think Ive ever deleted anything from it till now.


----------



## raskolnikov (Mar 10, 2008)

Carl,
I bid the same as the real thing and get most of what I quote. You just gotta want to do it though, that's my problem. Well... one of them anyway.

D.


----------



## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JBM said:


> Doesnt that chap your knickers


Yes...yes it does.:whistling


----------



## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

I'm just going to throw a big sq.ft number out there. Cover my learning curve. I know I can do it. Do it efficiently? That's another story.


----------



## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

that type of stone,i would say you can lay 60-75 sq ft per day.advantage of this is no joints to strike up,disadvantages are keeping everything tight,and keeping mud from seeping out on the joints when laying it.i havent laid any of this in a couple years,and the last time i did it for 4 bucks a sq ft.i swore i would never lay it again for less than 8 bucks.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Is that a common days rate for a Guy and a tender where you are, cuz that seems pretty low to me.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

$4/sqft yikes. $8/sqft yikes.


----------



## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

JBM points it out, Don't go lower than pavers


----------



## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

dom-mas said:


> $4/sqft yikes. $8/sqft yikes.


i would love to get more,but i have to battle out of towners(mexican crews)who come here and are laying brick for 300.00 per thousand and stone for 2 bucks a foot.

and HO dont care about quality they want it done tomorrow and dont care what it looks like until they have paid them and have moved on.


----------



## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

stacker said:


> i would love to get more,but i have to battle out of towners(mexican crews)who come here and are laying brick for 300.00 per thousand and stone for 2 bucks a foot.


$2 for stone?????!!!!! Please tell me you were exaggerating to make a point.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Wow, those prices are crazy. I don't know how you can make a living


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

They are not out of line here either, but are labor and mud only. Cultured stone can go for as low as 2-3 bucks a foot mud and labor too for big flat walls.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Impossible


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Not if you live 10 to an apartment, do not understand the concept of "insurance" (business, automotive, and personal), and your overhead consists of tacos.


----------



## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

Paper, wire, mud and color is more than 2 bucks here


----------



## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

those prices i quoted are for labor only.

money can be made at 3-4 dollars a sq ft on fake stone.but a guy has to stay after it.he can't go out and lay a 150 foot one day,and lay off the next.i know,i have been there lately.i don't know if it is the fact i am working by myself right now or what,but some days i have to make myself go to work.

i am out of that rut now,thank god.but still getting burnt out somewhat.


----------



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> Not if you live 10 to an apartment, do not understand the concept of "insurance" (business, automotive, and personal), and your overhead consists of tacos.


Not to turn it political But these guys come from countrys that dont use insurance and then get full assistance while they're here for general living expenses. 
If they didnt get that assistance then they would realize the need to charge more. Until that happens I cant see them looking to elevate their cost. They have been working here long enough, enough is enough.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

stacker said:


> those prices i quoted are for labor only.
> 
> money can be made at 3-4 dollars a sq ft on fake stone.but a guy has to stay after it.he can't go out and lay a 150 foot one day,and lay off the next.i know,i have been there lately.i don't know if it is the fact i am working by myself right now or what,but some days i have to make myself go to work.
> 
> i am out of that rut now,thank god.but still getting burnt out somewhat.


The only way that works is if you manage a crew not necessarily do the work. You are more valuable as a company owner, sales man- then you are as hired help.


----------



## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

> Impossible


I agree with the prevailing opinion here. And Stacker, it not wise IMO to try to compete on price with people willing to work for next to nothing. Maybe that's why you're getting burned out. 

Spend some time learning the finer points of the trade, learn to read blueprints. Practice and learn fireplace building. In other words, concentrate on the things the $3 guys can't do, you'll be a lot happier.

Hope you don't mind the advice. I'm 61 and I've been through it when I was younger - I used to try to lay more bricks than anyone else and eventually I had to accept the fact I just couldn't do it. 

I slowed down and learned lots of new things. Today I don't work as "hard" as I used to but I get more accomplished, make more money too.  

Dave


----------



## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

dbrons said:


> I agree with the prevailing opinion here. And Stacker, it not wise IMO to try to compete on price with people willing to work for next to nothing. Maybe that's why you're getting burned out.
> 
> Spend some time learning the finer points of the trade, learn to read blueprints. Practice and learn fireplace building. In other words, concentrate on the things the $3 guys can't do, you'll be a lot happier.
> 
> ...


thanks for the advice.i am 52 yo and have been at this since i was old enough to go out with dad on the job.i can build a fireplace from ground up,read blueprints and everything else there is to know about this business.my biggest problem is finding help.there are no masons in my area,except those that come in from out of town.i had a mason working for me but he died about 3 years ago.another mason who worked some for me is in the oil field now.the younger people here would rather drive a truck for 18.00 an hour hauling salt water or delivering parts to the oil field than learn a trade like this.i had a chance to bid a large job recently,over 100,000 brick on a hotel.i placed a feeler ad on craig's list.....not one reply so i didnt bid the job.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Yup, help is hard to find. Around here why would a kid want to go up 35 feet in the air when he can carry pavers to do a walkway. Pretty much a no brainer.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

JBM said:


> Yup, help is hard to find. Around here why would a kid want to go up 35 feet in the air when he can carry pavers to do a walkway. Pretty much a no brainer.


You don't get many better views than we do


----------



## jimfix (Sep 7, 2011)

stacker said:


> thanks for the advice.i am 52 yo and have been at this since i was old enough to go out with dad on the job.i can build a fireplace from ground up,read blueprints and everything else there is to know about this business.my biggest problem is finding help.there are no masons in my area,except those that come in from out of town.i had a mason working for me but he died about 3 years ago.another mason who worked some for me is in the oil field now.the younger people here would rather drive a truck for 18.00 an hour hauling salt water or delivering parts to the oil field than learn a trade like this.i had a chance to bid a large job recently,over 100,000 brick on a hotel.i placed a feeler ad on craig's list.....not one reply so i didnt bid the job.


A couple of thoughts on getting good help....
A friend started up a company and put out an ad asking for help and got no responses. Then he changed his ad to say something like "opportunity to partner with a skilled <> to begin your career doing <>" and got several hundred in a few days. His advice was to turn the ad from "I need help doing this..." into "doing this will be great for you..."
Or, maybe post on bulletin boards for a local community college


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

jimfix said:


> A couple of thoughts on getting good help....
> A friend started up a company and put out an ad asking for help and got no responses. Then he changed his ad to say something like "opportunity to partner with a skilled <> to begin your career doing <>" and got several hundred in a few days. His advice was to turn the ad from "I need help doing this..." into "doing this will be great for you..."
> Or, maybe post on bulletin boards for a local community college


Oh god, whatever you do don't ever be a partner with anyone but your wife. After breaking up my partnership after 5 years I got this advise. 

There are 2 ships you never get on...a sinking ship and a partnership.

There is no win with a partnership, only losses and stalemates


----------



## jimfix (Sep 7, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Oh god, whatever you do don't ever be a partner with anyone but your wife. After breaking up my partnership after 5 years I got this advise.
> 
> There are 2 ships you never get on...a sinking ship and a partnership.
> 
> There is no win with a partnership, only losses and stalemates


I am paraphrasing I'm not sure exactly what he wrote so yes "partnership" was probably the wrong word to use.
My point I was trying to make was that the help-wanted should say what the prospective employee will get out of it, instead of saying what you'll get out of it. 
So for example instead of saying "brick hod wanted..." you can say "opportunity to learn a trade..." Someone reading that would see it as long term/apprenticeship/training with a real future instead of 'just' a job.


----------



## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

Yes and it was a real good point Jim. I remember when I was young, learning the trade, and I would call a guy looking for work, often the first thing the guy would ask was "How many blocks can you lay in a day?" 

I'd just say....I'm not sure or something and end the conversation - sure didn't want to go to work for those guys.
Dave


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Dbrons, the only correct answer for that is, "All of them". It is a stupid question and deserves a nonsensical answer.


----------



## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

dbrons said:


> Yes and it was a real good point Jim. I remember when I was young, learning the trade, and I would call a guy looking for work, often the first thing the guy would ask was "How many blocks can you lay in a day?"
> 
> I'd just say....I'm not sure or something and end the conversation - sure didn't want to go to work for those guys.
> Dave


when confronted with that question my answer is always the same...."All I can get my hands on!!"


----------

