# Advice



## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Ok guys, yes I run a painting company but I also run a GC buildout and renovation company... this one I am coming to you for.

Circa 1920 home, longest homerun is about 80 feet, old style screw in fuse panel(s), two, with max 30 amp x4, two wire throughout with metal boxes. 

Problem, blowing lights regularly, the zeon I pulled out today is burnt on one side completly.

My idea of a "cheap" fix without having to rewire the whole place... ground the box to code, which in florida is 2 6' spikes spaced at least 4' apart... your comments?

I have a feeling that even that may not work for long as they are using window unit A/C's (x4) and outdoor lighting, pretty sure the box is simply overloaded but, I need a bandaid for the moment.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Nothing you propose to do is legal or will solve the problem they are having. Best to get an electrician involved. You're just guessing.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Brushslingers said:


> ... ground the box to code, which in florida is 2 6' spikes spaced at least 4' apart... your comments?


Yes, I have a comment. 
First off, I seriously doubt this is code, even in Florida. Sinking 20 ground rods will NOT give you a safety ground capable of clearing a fault. So how can it be code?

Even if it were code the NEC requires 8' rods, and if more than one they are required 6' apart. Even with a locally amended code, how could they be so far removed from the NEC. 
Most local codes are ammended versions of the NEC, with things removed or added.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Ok, well I was asking if that would be a "quick" type fix until they could come up with the cash to spend on ripping out all the interior walls and completly redoing the wiring.... it's a sorority house and will not be clear until the summer, I just need something to stop the lights from blowing every week until then... I understand local code, etc... was just asking. Little 18 year old girls need lights for safety. I mean I could just stick in new fixtures but.. we all know that won't help... just trying to get them ok for a few months.

Far as the local ground code, ya it states 6', but the amendment says at least 4'... the boxes are outdoors on a porch, reason I said 4'.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Driving ground rods will do absolutely nothing to stop lamps from blowing, nor will it enhance the safety of the installation. You are sorely confused about the role of rod electrodes. Rewiring the dwelling may also do nothing to stop lamps from blowing. Since this is a sorority house, I implore you to not do this yourself. The liability, even for a trained professional, is immense in an occupancy such as this. There are a few common problems that cause frequent lamp failures, but the lack of grounding electrodes is never one of the causes.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Think you misunderstand MD, but that's cool... wasn't planning on doing it myself anyhoo. I *KNOW* the curcuits are overloaded, I *KNOW* they are not grounded to anything whatsoever. I *KNOW* the city put in new meters and wires from the pole... the burn marks on the lights and bulbs tell me the breakers (fuses) are getting hit and not popping due to too high an amp being placed in the socket, which is why I also included the longest homerun, to figure amps per feet per fuse... i'm not a complete moron  I just want to make these kids feel a little safer with lights for a few more months (they just bought this annex)... ya know? This WAS the same spot ted bundy walked through... it's fairly well known. If you don't think a grounded box will help in the least then a simple... "Nope, won't help" could work. I really didn't need the whole you aren't capable speech. I would like to know however, which is why I asked in the first place... other reasons besides lightning and fault grounds, that lights would blow quickly.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I can't imagine the load on that place! Hairdryers, curlers, water heater 24/7, windowshakers, hot plates.......:laughing: Our electric bill dropped $35 a month when 'the rotten kid' went to college. Somebody else picked up those charges as I'm sure that her habits didn't change.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Sparkie's are sooooo touchy. I suppose I will have to rephrase it this way...

Yo, i'm doing alot of work at this place and although I understand ohm's law I am not a sparkie. I have this problem (see above for specs) and have my idea for a bandaid (see above for bandaid) but, am laying it out in public for you sparkies and your wisdom to tell me how to lay it out to my local sparkie, choice a and b perhaps. School me with your infinite wisdom please, as I am only a simple GC that needs your years of knowledge to just point me in the direction(s) I need to pursue.


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

Brushslingers said:


> Think you misunderstand MD, but that's cool... wasn't planning on doing it myself anyhoo. I *KNOW* the curcuits are overloaded, I *KNOW* they are not grounded to anything whatsoever. I *KNOW* the city put in new meters and wires from the pole... the burn marks on the lights and bulbs tell me the breakers (fuses) are getting hit and not popping due to too high an amp being placed in the socket, which is why I also included the longest homerun, to figure amps per feet per fuse... i'm not a complete moron  I just want to make these kids feel a little safer with lights for a few more months (they just bought this annex)... ya know? This WAS the same spot ted bundy walked through... it's fairly well known. If you don't think a grounded box will help in the least then a simple... "Nope, won't help" could work. I really didn't need the whole you aren't capable speech. I would like to know however, which is why I asked in the first place... other reasons besides lightning and fault grounds, that lights would blow quickly.


No need to listen to insults as one of my apprentice electricians could figure this one out. There are two major reasons why your lights are blowing.

1. The voltage present is two high
2. The bulbs you have are made for a different voltage then what you have present there (ex. 130v bulbs which are generally becoming more popular these days for there long lasting life and cheap costs, will not work properly on some older places where there is 110-120 volts present.

A. Temp Solution- replace bulbs with correct voltage
B. Perm Solution- call a *Licensed!* Master Electrical Contractor.

Bigger problem could occur if not taken serious. Appliances are next to go defective if your problem is not repaired soon.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

It would be hard for me (maybe everyone on this site) to give you some solutinos with out some inspection of my own. My best advice, call an electrician, then ask him what he thinks he needs to do. There are different sizes and types of bandaids.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> No need to listen to insults as one of my apprentice electricians could figure this one out. There are two major reasons why your lights are blowing.
> 
> 1. The voltage present is two high
> 2. The bulbs you have are made for a different voltage then what you have present there (ex. 130v bulbs which are generally becoming more popular these days for there long lasting life and cheap costs, will not work properly on some older places where there is 110-120 volts present.
> ...



Um, if he doens't change the bulbs, why would his appliances go bad?


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> No need to listen to insults as one of my apprentice electricians could figure this one out. There are two major reasons why your lights are blowing.
> 
> 1. The voltage present is two high
> 2. The bulbs you have are made for a different voltage then what you have present there (ex. 130v bulbs which are generally becoming more popular these days for there long lasting life and cheap costs, will not work properly on some older places where there is 110-120 volts present.
> ...


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Charred bulbs are normally a symptom of a failed lampholder or an intermittant open neutral on a multiwire branch circuit.


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

Brushslingers said:


> cjonesjr2007 said:
> 
> 
> > No need to listen to insults as one of my apprentice electricians could figure this one out. There are two major reasons why your lights are blowing.
> ...


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> 2. The bulbs you have are made for a different voltage then what you have present there (ex. 130v bulbs which are generally becoming more popular these days for there long lasting life and cheap costs, will not work properly on some older places where there is 110-120 volts present..


Flatly untrue. A 130 volt incandescent lamp will just be dimmer on a 120 volt circuit. I thought you were an EE? You're a poser, sorry.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> Flatly untrue. A 130 volt incandescent lamp will just be dimmer on a 120 volt circuit. I thought you were an EE? You're a poser, sorry.



:clap: :thumbup: :w00t:


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

I wouldn't expect someone without a license to do electrical work to understand that without experiencing a easy bulb repair solution. Please get licensed first MD before we can relate some more. Please don't let your lack of electrical knowledge and jealousy interfere with my doctarate degree that i've earned. Congratulate but please dont hate! Help the customers out to the best of your ability and stop trying to insult them because they don't know any better. Pick on someone with greater knowledge than you who earned there stripes such as myself. (no grandfathering in) Who's the bully now? I think you. Let's be nice for once guys.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Ahh, ok.. some leeway.. open neutral, you mean common eh? Even on a two wire circuit if there were an open common that was sparking it could cause overload to that particular circuit and if the breaker (fuse) was overrated it could relay to the fixture and charr/burn the lamp.... right? Not enough to burn the wire.. they patched in for certain outside lampage........ hmmm, box in the attic perhaps? It is indeed a branch, hence the multiple rooms running off four fuses. Thanks MD, you gave a little light, could indeed be the renovation wiring over the years instead of a fault ground. I have an area to point my own sparky.... THAT, was what I wanted. Makes sense too, only outside lights blowing, new outside light run from attic (at some point), would have to tie in somewhere.... damn, perfect sense but I didn't see it. Course I've reached out and grabbed hot wires at times too.  Now that I think about it, they mentioned having to change the fuse at an abnormal rate as well...... Beauty.

BTW cjones, go read up on OHMS... things are rated in volts due to OHMS.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Brushslinger, I have no doubt you are just trying to help these girls out. If someone gets hurt/killed because they didn't see the urgency of hiring a pro to do this, how will you feel for helping making them feel less urgent about it?

Two wire systems are not ungrounded but they lack a safety ground. Light bulbs failing more often than they should is likely caused by an intermittent ground, just like MDShunk says. This situation could be a serious problem, with significant risks. 

What the sparky's are trying to tell you is, helping them out by patching their problem may create an unjustified comfort level that could result in someone getting injured or killed. Sometimes the best thing you can do for someone is be honest with them and say, this place is unsafe, should not be lived in, could injure or kill someone, and needs to be properly fixed, and this is going to cost $$$. Or, you could do what they ask and pray every night that that intermittent ground doesn't result in an overheated wire or appliance starting a fire in the middle of the night and killing people.

MD's not being a smartass, he is trying to point out some very real dangers.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Brings me to another question however, do you think a drop of .5 is too much considering this senario? I am wondering about bidding new wiring now, maybe I should spec the circuits at 10 instead of 12 simply for the A/C window units and the aformentioned hairdryers and ... stuff? Hmmm, maybe run each room on 8 with it's own breaker....


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