# Do you pay your guys to unload their tools?



## bigdifficultme (Feb 28, 2006)

Do you get paid to walk into the office, turn on the computer, and get all of your paperwork out?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I don't remember the last time I got up at 6am on purpose.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Working in the Valley in the summer we started at 5AM, generally worked without lunch and went home at 1. We adjusted start & stop tijmes with the weather & daylight. When it got to be not so hot we added lunch. Everyone rolled out in the morning ready to go at starting time. 10-15 minutes before quitting time everyone rolled up and went home. Never been on a job when it has been any different.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

When these guys decide that you
are nit picking them,
they will really start to screw with you.


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Neolitic has it right.

You really have no clue how the actual job should be run, they know it and you know it. If I were you I would not say a lick to them about set-up and take down time. If it is a large job, I assume it is since it has a super, I would pay the laborer to come early and position all company tools and materials for the day, same thing in the afternoon.

You haven't told us what they are seting up tooling wise and how far they have to park from their work area, that is really what determines whether 24min is reasonable or not. Also, they may be positioning materials.


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I don't remember the last time I got up at 6am on purpose.


Yes, yes, I can agree with that. As I've gotten older, I've found that I need at least 12 hours of sleep per night...... and 8 during the day!:w00t:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Here's my take.

You, as an employee, give me 8 hours of work for 8 hours of pay. Out of you vehicle and on the property at 8 AM. 15 minute break at 10AM, on me. Lunch from 1-1:30, work day is done at 4:30. Anything else is overtime.

If I don't want to pay for unwrap and wrap, I'll do it myself, before and after hours.

If you have people on the job at 7:45 to get out tools for 8 AM start and someone gets hurt before 8 AM, do you file a WC claim, or tell them it's before hours, you're on your own? I think you'll lose the argument if you think they're not on the clock, so they're not covered by WC.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

loneframer said:


> If you have people on the job at 7:45 to get out tools for 8 AM start and someone gets hurt before 8 AM, do you file a WC claim, or tell them it's before hours, you're on your own? I think you'll lose the argument if you think they're not on the clock, so they're not covered by WC.


I have to admit, that's a pretty good point Rizz.


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

I've seen disgruntled workers challenge this (not getting paid for roll out)
And Labor and Industries going back through the time cards and making the owners pay all that time to *all* the employees effected!
True story and I'm sticking with it!


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Jeff G said:


> Yes, yes, I can agree with that. As I've gotten older, I've found that I need at least 12 hours of sleep per night...... and 8 during the day!:w00t:


That's pretty funny. Can't sleep twelve at night, but it's getting easier to get the 8 during the day.:whistling


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## kubie (Oct 19, 2008)

why wouldnt you pay your crew to set up and roll up each day?

they are the ones making you money and getting your project done.
if you want to get there early to set up and leave late to put everything away, more power to ya.

me i would rather get done with a days work on time and go watch my son play baseball.

its amazing how many tools we bring out for a job. you could be cleaning up for a long time


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## Cjeff (Dec 14, 2009)

Yep, set up and roll up are all part of the job. Many good posts above so I will not say it all again.


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## tcholdren (Jun 27, 2007)

The Origanal Post says it ALL. You say that your Boss made you the "Super" on this project. It shouldnt matter to you if they are on the clock or not. 

Job Starts at the Time Stated. Dosnt matter if I work for you, you work for me!

If your The one in Charge, be the one to speed Them Up.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

When I was employed, one thing that I always hated was managers who always wanted squeeze labor out of us right down to the exact penny.. where if we weren't specifically doing something work related as a result of downtime, they wanted us to clock out or some sort of way adjust the time. Even though it was wrong and in some cases illegal, I decided that I wouldn't do that to anyone else.

So IMHO every minute that they are on the job is time that they are getting paid for. If they are wasting too much time in the morning or goofing off too often during the middle of the day, then that's an issue that gets addressed separately but the way that I look at is that if my guys accomplish everything that I set out to be done for that day, I'm not too concerned about the fluff time in between. 

Maybe it isn't the best thing to do from a "business smart" perspective but if my guys hustle 6.5 hours out of the day and shoot the breeze for the other 1.5, it's worth it to me if it keeps their morale and motivation high. If I decided to clock them in at the sound of the first nail going into the wood and clock them out when the hammer goes back into the tool belt, they aren't going to be good workers for very long.

If I tell them that I need everything wired up by the end of the day and they finish at 4:20, I'll pay them to 5:00. In a way it is a reward for getting the job done in a timely manner and not penalizing them for it. 

But to address the original post, I pay during the load in/load out times because I do not want them to cut corners in the interest of getting as much time on the clock as possible.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Does anyone know if this is legal? Talking about making your guys roll out or roll up tools on their own time.

Some companies I've worked for make you do it on your own time and some don't. But if you make someone spend 15 minutes a day getting out or putting away tools on their own time. That translates to 15 minutes of overtime each day that you are shorting them. So if they worked for you for three years, that would be 195 overtime hours that you shorted them.

I've often wondered what would happen if an employee was bold enough to bring that to court. If the company would owe them the money or not. 

In my own opinion, if I say start at 7:00 AM, that means you're there out of your truck, on site with your tool bags out. Rolling out or putting away hoses, compressor, ladders, or anything else is company time, and they should get paid for that.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

neolitic said:


> When these guys decide that you
> are nit picking them,
> they will really start to screw with you.


Yeah, I remember we used to find ways around it when a company made us roll out tools on our own time. We would roll out minimal tools to start out, then half hour later roll out some more hoses, cords, take a dump, or whatever, then get back to work. It's actually less efficient that way, and we get less done.


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## MarkyMark (Jun 7, 2009)

KennMacMoragh said:


> Does anyone know if this is legal? Talking about making your guys roll out or roll up tools on their own time.


I'm just going off memory here, and this may be just in North Carolina, but I seem to remember a labor board guy explaining it this way. From the time you arrive at a work place or job site, and are under the direction of your employer, you were considered to be "on the clock."

In this particular instance, an employee complained (untruthfully it turns out) to the labor board that they were required to come in 15 minutes early to load up material and tools onto their vans off the clock before heading out in the morning. The Labor Board said that was a big no-no.


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## woodtradesman (Apr 23, 2008)

KennMacMoragh said:


> Does anyone know if this is legal? Talking about making your guys roll out or roll up tools on their own time.


Not legal in California, apparently.


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

> I've often wondered what would happen if an employee was bold enough to bring that to court. If the company would owe them the money or not.


I know of a case in where this happened, in Tacoma, WA LnI doesn't mess around this guy had to pay a bunch of guys past pay. I don't know how they figured what was owed but all the guys working at that company got pretty big checks and were then paid for *all *time spent on the job from then on out.


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

I pay my guys from the moment they walk in the shop in the morning, till they get in there truck at the end of the day. Pay to load materials, drive to job and load and clean up. They drive home from wherever they worked that day on their time, unless it is farther than 30 miles from the shop. Then I pay till they are within 30 miles of the shop.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I charged my customers to load and unload all my tools. I do what ever I can though to reduce that time. Leave trailer close to house or keep tools in a tool chest in the area I'm working so they don't have as much cost related to the setup and cleanup. I'm currently working on a house that has over 120 steps down to the front door and taking the tools up and down them each days eats at least an hour each day and sometimes more. It's keeping me dam fit though.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I charge my customers from when i roll in their driveway to when i roll out, sometimes even the drive time depending on distance. I also pay whatever help i may have from when they pull into my drive until they leave my drive. If they are supplying tools then i pay them to load them and unload them. Am i making as much money as i could? No, but who ever works for me is well paid, never complains, is on time and more than willing to work.

If one were to get picky enough to determine if men were being paid to load/unload tools that they supply then do you have to pay them swap out/replace blades too? Who even pays for the blades/nails then? Its their tools right?


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## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2010)

You legally have to pay employees to roll out if thats part of there job duties. Just like you have to pay riders in work trucks without a rider clause. If its expected it has to be paid. I make sure that at morning rollout everything is out, I hate seeing guys go back to the trailer. I also leave the compressor in the trailer with the lead hose left out. Cords, hoses, and ladders are left out and locked up. I figure as many cords as I have had stolen at night 0 it saves me a ton on labor not rolling them up everynight and unrolling them in the morning. This is also why I pre cut the house packs. Roll out the big stuff the first couple days then leave it in the trailer.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

mnjconstruction said:


> My rules: we typically start at 6 am. Guys are to be there no later then 5:45. Work as team to get set up. Most of them drinking coffee while doing so. At 6 we are ready to go. Alot of times I get there early at set up everything and have it ready. End of day we stop at 4:15 and cleanup, pack tools, then we are off. done by 4:30. there pay is from 6 to 430.


I run it so it's roll out on your time so you are workin at 7:00am and roll up on co. time:no: at 3:00pm so rollup and scrap out and maybe even sweep up will take the last 30min and if the beer is cold it shall flow at 3:30pm:clap:


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

if its in the scope of the work then its billed to a customer...getting supplies, if they stop you every 5 secs playing 20 questions


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

i show up at 720 most mornings so i can finish my coffee and bagel. 730 im unlocking the house and setting up saws, compressors and running hose around 8 teh rest of the crew shows up and we start building. around 415 they start shutting down and ill keep any gear that im using setup 5pm i start packing up 530 im on my way home.. therefore 9.5 hr day.

if i do find myself wandering around or without something to do for a short time i simply take myself off the clock for 1/2 hr or so and just add that to my lunch break


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## CarpetbaggerEnt (Jan 6, 2011)

As others have stated, rule of thumb is subs are EXPECTED to be on the clock when actual work starts. Prep time is on their time. Clean up and load up is negotiable, but usually allowed to be charged because site clean up typically takes the most time.

I would definitely change the arrangement to pay per job instead of by the hour. Sounds like you have a bunch that are milking the job. I know I certainly wouldn't tolerate even a day of subs charging an hour to unload their tools. I don't charge customers for my prep time, why should subs do the same?


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Framer53 said:


> I refuse to work for someone that isn't, or won't pay me to set up or tear down my job. that is ridiculous to expect a man to not do so.


Excellent response.
I worked for a company that wanted you to be in the shop at 6am, then drive 45 minutes to the jobsite in their vans, and once there, then you get paid from that point on. They didn't pay for drive time back to their shop at the end of the day either.

Another company I worked for the hours were at 6am sharp ("not one minute later !!!!") until 2 and that's what you got paid for. However, you usually had to get to the jobsite 1/2 hour early to get the gear out of the conex and set up. And of course we usually worked until after 2 before we could pack everything up and in the connex again. 

Along those lines, I also was told of a car wash that the "manager/owner", when there were no cars to be washed, would tell his employees to sit down and be off the clock because "I'm not paying you to stand around and do nothing".

People that think like the above are little more than predatory sharks. 
They are bottom feeders that due to manipulation, lying, intimidation, family, got to where they are as "bosses/owners". 
*What they are doing is stealing from their employees.*

Only losers, druggies, drunks, etc. work for them for any length of time as the good people leave to work for responsible adults.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

CarpetbaggerEnt said:


> As others have stated, rule of thumb is subs are EXPECTED to be on the clock when actual work starts. Prep time is on their time. Clean up and load up is negotiable, but usually allowed to be charged because site clean up typically takes the most time.
> 
> I would definitely change the arrangement to pay per job instead of by the hour. Sounds like you have a bunch that are milking the job. I know I certainly wouldn't tolerate even a day of subs charging an hour to unload their tools. I don't charge customers for my prep time, why should subs do the same?



So you have employees that are 1099 subs?


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> So you have employees that are 1099 subs?


Unfortunately,that's been the trend.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

CO762 said:


> Unfortunately,that's been the trend.


I have been in the trades for 16 years. It's alway been there. That element are hacks at best. Fortunately I can predict with most certainty that the future of that endeavor always ends in bankruptcy. :thumbsup: I have seen guys do it for years but that one day always comes.


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

Id go back and forth having this conversation with my past co-workers. Cos he always felt bad adding to his hours time for driving to different job sites in the middle of the day. I'd say to him that it made sense to get paid for it and our boss didn't have a problem paying for it, because it is work. He sent you to the other job site, if he didn't then you wouldn't be there and his jobs wouldn't be getting completed. 

But my buddy had a piece work mentality because for a long time he shoot trim on new house development and would only get paid for the lineal foot he installed.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

CarpetbaggerEnt said:


> I don't charge customers for my prep time, why should subs do the same?


Just because you consider prep time to be worthless, there's no reason anyone else should.

You can't do a job without prep. Why don't you consider that to be part of the job?


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## CarpetbaggerEnt (Jan 6, 2011)

*Prep pay*

I look at it this way. Does the contractor pay for the subs to load their truck up at home to prep for the first day on site? NO. It is the sub's obligation. If the sub breaks a tool, they must purchase another on their time - right? Maintenance, purchasing and setup of individual tools should be the responsibility of the sub. Larger tools that need multiple subs to set up is another issue and I would agree that they be paid for it. But for basic tools, absolutely not.

Paying hourly for setup time falls in line with union mentality. As everyone knows, that approach is not the most time efficient nor economical. This is why I always stick with flat rate for work. The more efficient a sub is, the more money they can make. Hourly pay only encourages slow feet and clock watching. Just my experience.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Yes the contractor does pay for the sub to gather up tools at home. Even if doing an hourly job, the contractor has the time at home already factored into his hourly rate. Not as if he spends all that time loading up for free.


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

Provide a secure area for tool storage. If it's the first day, assuming employees, then sure, on your time. If they want to lug their tools home each day, then theirs. If the site is not secure and they're expected to haul in more than can be carried in 1 trip, your cost.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Hourly pay for subs is a whole subject unto itself. Too lazy to look back in the thread right now, but I had the impression it was about workers in general, not just subs.

Regardless, I expect to be paid for ALL of the work-related time I spend on your jobsite. I also expect to be paid for my time working up a bid (though that's reflected by my rate and not billed separately).

Any time I spend on your work is time that I'm not free to spend doing anything else. I doubt you're cute enough to get me to give it to you for nothing.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

OCRS said:


> Provide a secure area for tool storage. If it's the first day, assuming employees, then sure, on your time. If they want to lug their tools home each day, then theirs. If the site is not secure and they're expected to haul in more than can be carried in 1 trip, your cost.


So if your employees are nice enough to bring/use their own tools, you repay them by making them load up on their own time? Not gonna be your employees for very long. This post is ridiculous. Just pay the guys and get over it. If you are having a problem with how long it takes, then you have other problems to deal with. It takes my crew probably 5 to 10 minutes to set up or tear down. If any contractor that I worked hourly for wants to dispute this time, they can use a new sub.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

the setup and clean up are all on the clock. we start at 7am on the job and usually either have left things setup from the day before as far as benches, saws, even cords and hoses if we know we are coming back to do the same thing the next day, why waste time at the end of the day.

As the owner and boss, I don't like wasting time setting up in the am or breaking down in the pm but it's part of the job and it should ALWAYS be on the clock

they are there to work for you. are the framers you are referring to, on a contract price or Time and Material? if they are contract, then why even bother, they are working on a fixed price with your boss.

It always amazes me that some larger companies can have a guy on a jobsite all day making sure other people are working , pay him to do nothing but manage the subs and still make his margins for himself and his own employees. i'm talking strictly residential, not commercial, before someone wants to jump down my throat about it.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

Tinstaafl said:


> Hourly pay for subs is a whole subject unto itself. Too lazy to look back in the thread right now, but I had the impression it was about workers in general, not just subs.
> 
> Regardless, I expect to be paid for ALL of the work-related time I spend on your jobsite. I also expect to be paid for my time working up a bid (though that's reflected by my rate and not billed separately).
> 
> Any time I spend on your work is time that I'm not free to spend doing anything else. I doubt you're cute enough to get me to give it to you for nothing.


which is exactly why I explain to people that being on the jobsite is not ALL that it takes to do their job. on some jobs for repeat customers, it's all Time and material. I may charge for a full day even if we were only there 7 hours sometimes less because I have to go pickup material or do other related things to their job that they don't even realize.

this thread is crazy. my employee uses all my tools, all he has is his toolbelt and he usually leaves it in my truck or the trailer at the end of the day. takes us 10-15 minutes max to clean up, unless it's the END of the job and we are taking a lot back home, and setting up the trailer for driving.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

I realize this thread started 6 months ago, but if you EXPECT me to be in at 6:45 to get ready to work by 7:00....guess what time I EXPECT to start getting paid  ........here's a hint....out of the 2 options above, it's not 7:00.

That will last for one week until I realize I'm being shorted 15 minutes every day, then I'll be in at 7:00 from then on....if you don't like it, we'll discuss it with the Dept. of Labor.

Some of the guys have said something along the lines of "Get out of your truck, put your bags on, grab your saw and be THAT ready by starting time"....I can live with that. One minute...2 minutes....fine, not 15 minutes...you can go fu.......well anyway, that's not happening. As I said, we'll let DOL figure it out...and they may very well side with you, but I have my doubts.

(Seems like I've typed all this before. When I saw the title of this thread, I assumed it was here...but no little black dot, so I dunno)

Naturally, all of this is just MHO :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## apehangeralfy (Oct 26, 2008)

iPatrick said:


> My guys have been dragging there butts in the morning and I am just trying to figure out how I am going to handle it. Just this morning, I was in the office but didn't hear the first nail being fired until 8:24. I like the crew, they do work hard and get it done. It's just that little things like this can suck the profit out of a job if your not careful.


So.... maybe you shouldn't be paid until they start working... I mean if you r being paid to oversee them and they ain't working, either you ain't doing your job or your milking the clock till the work starts... Can't have it both ways. Or since it ain't no big deal to roll out and roll up at the end of the day you could have it all ready to go when they get there.... sounds ridiculous don't it.

There is the difference between subs and employees... if you want to control them from 8 til 5 M-F they are employees and you get to pay taxes and comp.... 


One of the guys that left my old job about the same time I did turned in the owner for not paying for the ride back to the shop... an audit was done and everybody that worked there in the last 3 years got a check...


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

Warren said:


> So if your employees are nice enough to bring/use their own tools, you repay them by making them load up on their own time? Not gonna be your employees for very long. This post is ridiculous. Just pay the guys and get over it. If you are having a problem with how long it takes, then you have other problems to deal with. It takes my crew probably 5 to 10 minutes to set up or tear down. If any contractor that I worked hourly for wants to dispute this time, they can use a new sub.


These aren't my employees we're talking about, maybe not even the OP's (still not sure if he's got subs or empl.). I'm referring to basic tools like a pouch, etc. As far as basic tools go, there's nothing nice about it, everyone is expected to be personally equipped. As I said in my post, If the OP expects his company's employees to provide more tools than the basic stuff, i.e. one trip, the company should pay for their time to re & re.

Any company I ever worked for expected me to be ready to work @ 8 and keep working untill 4:30. Most of time, the company's tools had to be loaded back up if the site wasn't secure, so all this talk is irrelevant seeing as how everything was unloaded/loaded on company time anyway. As far as subs go, they can take 2 hrs if they want as long as their done when they agreed to be.

Setup/roll up, for me, is a different story. I think that should be entirely on company time.


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## CarpetbaggerEnt (Jan 6, 2011)

Warren said:


> Yes the contractor does pay for the sub to gather up tools at home. Even if doing an hourly job, the contractor has the time at home already factored into his hourly rate. Not as if he spends all that time loading up for free.


Since my subs have been 1099 and get paid according to bids and change orders, they should have calculated their travel time, prep time, maintenance time in the equation before agreeing on a price. Same goes when I do bids on jobs or cruch numbers. But, if I have a crew wanting adjustments based on setup time each day - nope, ain't gonna happen.

The point the original post was the point the super felt like his crew was taking advantage of setup time and dragging their feet. The rectification is simple. Have them paid by square footage on the next job and watch how quick they move in the morning.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

CarpetbaggerEnt said:


> The point the original post was the point the super felt like his crew was taking advantage of setup time and dragging their feet.



The OP said it takes a half hour to roll up and out every day. Get real.


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## VNativo (Dec 20, 2010)

iPatrick said:


> I am the Super on a remodel. This is the first time I am managing different trades that I am unaccustomed to working with.
> 
> We typically do a single trade on a job, concrete, masonry, tile and waterproofing but my boss landed this remodel and he wants me to keep an eye on the job while he is out there rounding up new work and supervising the other smaller jobs we have spread around town.
> 
> ...


I pay my guys for 8 hour work day. This does not include lunch. So from 7:00 - 3:30, I assume 10 min for setup, 10 for coffee & 10 for pack up. They produce 7-1/2 hours and get paid for 8. If the project is larger, I set aside one or two guys to assist all of the other workers to set up & start the clean up/packing up earlier. Cheaper to get one guy to lose an extra hour than 10 or 15 guys losing an extra 20 minutes


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## structural stud (Jan 7, 2011)

I have a framing company and when my guys are hired the are under the understanding that getting the tools out of the truck and picking them up everyday has nothing to do with their 8 hour work day. In the summer ill give them 10-15 min heat breaks...1 hour lunch break but the only time the clock runs is when they are working. However I pay 1-2$ per hour more than most my competition...my guys that have been around for no less than 4 years and several 8 years or more understand that their wages are based on our efficiency . The more efficient we are the less I have to charge the more work I get the easier it is for them to feed their family in this poor market..


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

whats the big deal to pay guys a few minutes a day to get out tools and put em up if your running that tight then you underbid the job and if you bid it right then don't be such a tightwad laborers and workers have familys to feed just like contractors do give me a break!


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

bluebird5 said:


> whats the big deal to pay guys a few minutes a day to get out tools and put em up if your running that tight then you underbid the job and if you bid it right then don't be such a tightwad...


My experience is the latter.
People that don't know what they're doing don't last long--so everyone else are just stealing from their employees.

They look at your work as piecework, yet won't pay your piecework. If they would, I'm sure it'd be way below the prevailing market, so no one would work for them that's good....unless they didn't know what crooks they subbed to.

I'd bet these are the same piecwork paying "bosses" that every time you submit your paperwork towards the end of the job, things start go being shorted and they last one is about 1/2 of what it should be, due to all sorts of things they say/create/lie about.

Next job you see them pull up on their new king ranch ford powerstroke...like they do every year.....

Crooks....Thieves....liars...


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I am confused. Are they subs or employees. Pay your employees to do their job. That is from the time they get out of the truck and setup to the time they put away the last tool. That is their job. As far as subs, they should be getting paid by the job and not by the hour. If you are paying them by the hour, they are employees. Especially if you are telling them when to get there and how to do their job. But that is for another thread.


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## structural stud (Jan 7, 2011)

bluebird5 said:


> whats the big deal to pay guys a few minutes a day to get out tools and put em up if your running that tight then you underbid the job and if you bid it right then don't be such a tightwad laborers and workers have familys to feed just like contractors do give me a break!


 
Tight .. lets say you have 50 framers. avg pay 14$ hour... 15min in morning putting on tool belts sharping penciles, going to the bathroom makeing that last call to wife,,,,,,,if they were actual getting saws out or the nail guns this takes less than 3 min however never works that way. afternoon 5 min were out, so 20 min a day. 250 days working a year 5000 min ,,83 hours ..$1100 per guy $55,000 per year. Now you have workers comp and liability insurance that all get theirs so lets add 17 k 72,000 a year to sharpen pencels in the morning. Thats a big deal in my book but even if its 1 6 man crew 6 000 per year, Remember the post 30 min set up time. unless it in a highrise their is no reason a guy cant get out of the truck, grab his tool belt and nailer saw and be working in 5 min. everything else not work related should stop when the door of the truck opens,


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## HandyHails (Feb 28, 2009)

Jesus.......
Blah, blah, blah

Anything that you REQUIRE your employee to do, you have to pay him for. 

No gray area here boys. That's it.


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

If i'm working for a company, and i'm supplying my own tools, and replacing those tools when they are worn/broken at my own cost, you can bet i expect to be paid from the moment I start working, grabbing my pouch, saw, etc.

if an employer told me i wouldn't be paid for rollout, rollup time, I would not work for them.

If im carrying tools around i'm working, if i'm putting tools away i'm working, getting set up is part of getting the job done, why is my time worthless if i'm setting up. 

comes across as cheap to me, when i have people working for me, of course i pay them for the time they are there, (not lunchtimes) but of course i pay for startup/clean up, 

i've never worked for a company where i wasn't paid for time spend settingup/ packing up


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

structural stud said:


> Tight .. lets say you have 50 framers. avg pay 14$ hour... 15min in morning putting on tool belts sharping penciles, going to the bathroom makeing that last call to wife,,,,,,,if they were actual getting saws out or the nail guns this takes less than 3 min however never works that way. afternoon 5 min were out, so 20 min a day. 250 days working a year 5000 min ,,83 hours ..$1100 per guy $55,000 per year. Now you have workers comp and liability insurance that all get theirs so lets add 17 k 72,000 a year to sharpen pencels in the morning. Thats a big deal in my book but even if its 1 6 man crew 6 000 per year, Remember the post 30 min set up time. unless it in a highrise their is no reason a guy cant get out of the truck, grab his tool belt and nailer saw and be working in 5 min. everything else not work related should stop when the door of the truck opens,


:laughing: 
The morning safety talks that were required were 15-20 minutes every morning. The weekly site safety meeting could take up to a hour a week. I would like to see the fit you would have. :laughing:
BTW this was for the 10th largest construction company in the world. And my crew I ran was two weeks ahead of the schedule the big boy or girl (I don't know) college edumacated estimator had figured. We couldn't go any faster because of other trades schedules. 

So please save us the 14 dollar a hour bean counter story.


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

here is an idea...what if during a setup/cleanup time for an employee they get hurt? if you consider that unpaid time im sure wc looks at that different ie: loitering vs on the job

i also do the same if i spend time getting materials or other job related running but only spend say 6 hours or 7 on site..then customer gets billed for a full day

i cant bake a cake while im at a vendor


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

just out of curiosity, all the examples of guys not being paid for rollout rollup seems to be framing/carpenters

i've never heard of a plumber or sparky not getting paid for their time getting set up, not saying it doesn't happen, just never heard of it. 

Always framing or formwork. talking about as an employee as well, not a sub.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

structural stud said:


> Tight .. lets say you have 50 framers. avg pay 14$ hour... 15min in morning putting on tool belts sharping penciles, going to the bathroom makeing that last call to wife,,,,,,,if they were actual getting saws out or the nail guns this takes less than 3 min however never works that way. afternoon 5 min were out, so 20 min a day. 250 days working a year 5000 min ,,83 hours ..$1100 per guy $55,000 per year. Now you have workers comp and liability insurance that all get theirs so lets add 17 k 72,000 a year to sharpen pencels in the morning. Thats a big deal in my book but even if its 1 6 man crew 6 000 per year, Remember the post 30 min set up time. unless it in a highrise their is no reason a guy cant get out of the truck, grab his tool belt and nailer saw and be working in 5 min. everything else not work related should stop when the door of the truck opens,


LOL Lets say you have 120 framers at 48.20$ an hour and thats just what they get but you pay 75-80$ per hour they will roll out on their time and roll up on co. time,,, when they roll out on their time it's done very fastand at 3:10 the ground will be picked clean and roll up:thumbsup: And you know what every one around here is fine with that:w00t: and that's how it works on 80% of the Residential housing Oh and on the military housing it's roll out on your time and roll up on your time:clap:and If you no like it there are guys walking in every morning with their bags on that will take your stinkin job from you:whistlingand here in the 50th state that's the bottom line!


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

BC Carpenter said:


> course i pay them for the time they are there, (not lunchtimes) but of course i pay for startup/clean up,
> 
> i've never worked for a company where i wasn't paid for time spend settingup/ packing up


What if their talking about work at lunch could they get paid then:whistling


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

well I don't work on "military housing" and I really do feel sorry for anybody who feels like they have to rollout/rollup on their own time for fear of losing their job.

and people can think about work all they want, they fact is I pay people for the time i bill them out for, I bill myself out for the same time.
Work is work, whether your setting up for the day, building something, or doing cleanup.

Besides, it is the law.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

BC Carpenter said:


> i've never heard of a plumber or sparky not getting paid for their time getting set up, not saying it doesn't happen, just never heard of it.


In many if not most areas, those are specialty licensed tradesmen who are just too expensive for the average GC to keep on payroll, so they get to charge whatever the traffic will bear.

In my neck of the woods, licensing is not required for those specialties. A lot of GCs around here have employee/subs who are multipurpose including those skills, so they would fall under the situation being discussed.


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

yeah makes sense, I was thinking as well on big commercial jobs, where you have a larger crew of electricians, etc.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

BC Carpenter said:


> well I don't work on "military housing" and I really do feel sorry for anybody who feels like they have to rollout/rollup on their own time for fear of losing their job.
> 
> and people can think about work all they want, they fact is I pay people for the time i bill them out for, I bill myself out for the same time.
> Work is work, whether your setting up for the day, building something, or doing cleanup.
> ...


The law says you have to stop at a stop sing:thumbup:and drive 55mph:w00t: but the fact is guys from the main land come out here every time a big job opens up just for 3 or 4 months work at that pay and when they get layed off they go home and pick up Hawaii UI at 585.00$ per week:clap:so they go home to Alabama and living life large and if they have the inc. on the FIA American Express card thats another 500$ a month:shutup:so whats that 2840$ per month and that AE card will pay for 6 months and UI gos almost forever:whistling


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## FenceKing (Jan 3, 2011)

iPatrick said:


> My question is this... What is typical policy (if there is one) on paying your guys (in this case framers) to lay out their tools in the morning and roll them up at the end of the day? It is taking a half an hour or more each day for my my guys to unload and pick up their tools.
> 
> In my opinion you should be on the job with tools ready to work at 8. As for picking up, I don't have as much of a problem paying for that.
> 
> I am curious how others handle this.


2 words to end all BS. FLAT RATE . or if you prefer PIECE WORK. Then what they make is up to them, its all on them if they slack or bust nuts, its up t them if they need 1 hr to play with their tools. i love paying flat rate, its how i spent my life and made me what i am, a go getter :thumbup:

to give an answer, id say yes paying is only right, anything that has to do with the job should be paid, anything not being paid for is considered "personal time", you dont do tooling on personal time". but within reason, if they suck balls and take forever then like anything else they need to do it faster.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

BC Carpenter said:


> Work is work, whether your setting up for the day, building something, or doing cleanup.
> 
> Besides, it is the law.


I know of one company in denver that only pays OT if you go over 86 --I think it-- is over a two week period. It's something like that as I had a friend that did installs for them. They're a retail outlet and the way he explained it was they put their installers on retail pay structure. I don't know exactly the breakdown, but I spoke with two other installers there and they said the same thing.

I told them they should report that company to the sec state or something but they weren't planning on staying long--just long enough to use them to get certifications, then leave.


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

yeah I worked for a company for a few years that didn't pay overtime.

The first time they asked that I work overtime, I learned the hard way that doesn't necessarily mean they will pay time and a half, double time, etc. I didn't volunteer a whole lot after that.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> LOL Lets say you have 120 framers at 48.20$ an hour and thats just what they get but you pay 75-80$ per hour they will roll out on their time and roll up on co. time,,, when they roll out on their time it's done very fastand at 3:10 the ground will be picked clean and roll up:thumbsup: And you know what every one around here is fine with that:w00t: and that's how it works on 80% of the Residential housing Oh and on the military housing it's roll out on your time and roll up on your time:clap:and If you no like it there are guys walking in every morning with their bags on that will take your stinkin job from you:whistlingand here in the 50th state that's the bottom line!


But the economy in HA sucks. Employers can get away with being cheap asses.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> The law says you have to stop at a stop sing:thumbup:and drive 55mph:w00t: but the fact is guys from the main land come out here every time a big job opens up just for 3 or 4 months work at that pay and when they get layed off they go home and pick up Hawaii UI at 585.00$ per week:clap:so they go home to Alabama and living life large and if they have the inc. on the FIA American Express card thats another 500$ a month:shutup:so whats that 2840$ per month and that AE card will pay for 6 months and UI gos almost forever:whistling




I hate this main land BS. Get over it. You are apart of the UNITED STATES. If you don't like it, get out.

I think I'll call the WAAAmbulance for ya. 

Would you like a WAAAmbuger and a side of French Cries?


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Howlie! :laughing:



BC Carpenter said:


> yeah I worked for a company for a few years that didn't pay overtime....I didn't volunteer a whole lot after that.


That's what they don't get. They're so busy cutting throats for fifty cents up front that they lose a whole lot of what could have been motivated and loyal employees.

As others have stated, it's a two way street.


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## structural stud (Jan 7, 2011)

We leave our air hose's.....extension cords and ladders on our jobs over night. I know some of u already are looking for one of our sites lol......but the sad truth is if you run your business properly taxes....insurance....workers comp....properly pay your employees...as long as nothing gets swipe ed before 30 days I'm making out every day after...and the rate osha makes us throw extension cords. And step ladders away. Not a big deal anyway...that's another topic. But my guys are just responsible for their pouches and nailers/saws....shouldn't take 3 min to be ready to work..


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

seen were people will work the hell out of people up to 39-40 hrs a week then they are done for the week

i mean people get called in in middle of the night for something run around then no compensation


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> But the economy in HA sucks. Employers can get away with being cheap asses.


 Yes it dose now!Military has stopped, and the homes are not selling!


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

CO762 said:


> Howlie! :laughing:
> 
> I think it's Haole:no:


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## Five Arrows (Jan 30, 2010)

*Now we see why productivity was suffering.*



tbronson said:


> Hummm... assless chaps, ........If they have to put on the bunny suit or safety gear and the like then its on me..........but its done without allot of grabass and standing around or they aren't paid for it.


I got to say I'm as straight as an arrow, but if some guy was walking around in a bunny suit wearing a safety harness and assless chaps with a bunch of singles tucked in his toolbelt.... I'd have to stop and take a look out of morbid curiosity. Happen a lot at your sites? :whistling: :w00t:


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

structural stud said:


> We leave our air hose's.....extension cords and ladders on our jobs over night.


As someone has already stated, it looks like framers are predominantly the ones that do the time cut thing as if you leave your stuff there, one only need park (close) and bring their minimal tools needed. I must say, both of those make being a framer attractive.

I also like this board because I can see how different the trades are in construction. At new construction sites here in denver, if you did that, you'd only have your extension cords when you showed up the next day...unless they were good.  Anyplace that has crews working your stuff will quickly be gone.


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## TBM (Oct 13, 2016)

"Work hours defined under FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act).
Work hour ordinary include all time the employee is required to be on the employers premises, on duty, or at a prescribed work place." 



Taken out of business Law and Management handbook
The way I see it if its their tools that they provide they roll out an clean up your own tools on there own time. I will provide what is needed to get the Job done. If they be mine. I will gladly pay someone to make sure my tools and equipment stay save and dry. I also pay guys more that bring there own tools that make work more productive.


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## lumac (Oct 20, 2016)

It depends on the project. I could understand both perspectives.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

I would if I had guys


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## Joe Pro (Aug 14, 2016)

NOPE! Why would I pay company guys getting out company tools on company time? What next? coffee break? Lunch? Vacations & holidays? Where does the madness end?


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## TBM (Oct 13, 2016)

Joe Pro said:


> NOPE! Why would I pay company guys getting out company tools on company time? What next? coffee break? Lunch? Vacations & holidays? Where does the madness end?


Because there YOUR TOOLS not theres. If you think that they give a half of a hoot about your tools you'd be wrong. Sure ill get them out to do my job but what guarantee do you get if you don't pay your guys. " umm did we get all the tools?" Forman asks " yep lets go home" idiot says. Meanwhile skilsaw sits in the rain all night or worse the electricians take it or something. Pay them its the LAW.


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

Joe Pro said:


> NOPE! Why would I pay company guys getting out company tools on company time? What next? coffee break? Lunch? Vacations & holidays? Where does the madness end?




Maybe there is a reason it's hard to find good help.......


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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