# Al v.s. Cu ?? Winner?



## Bubbles (Sep 27, 2007)

Obviously, Cu is way up. Who besides myself is seriously *thinking* about running standed Al to certain items for the first time?? What are pro's and con's of both beyound the basics? Ex. Feeders, Furnaces, Grounds and even Ovens on the longer runs? Been a lover of Cu for long but now it's getting tough on bids.....Any nice pro's v.s. Con articles out there?? I know it's within code ...but as someone on here say's "Just cause it code don't make it safe or efficient".

Anyone else pondering?


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## Chris75 (Dec 2, 2007)

I've always used AL. for anything over #6awg.


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

There is nothing wrong with running aluminum. Use #8 for dryers and A.C.'s when possible. Just squeeze some anti oxidant on your terminations.


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## Chris75 (Dec 2, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> There is nothing wrong with running aluminum. Use #8 for dryers and A.C.'s when possible. Just squeeze some anti oxidant on your terminations.


I wouldn't worry too much about the anti oxidant. but I dont want to start a debate on that stuff.


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

I use it just because I learned that way and I love to get it all over myself.


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## Chris75 (Dec 2, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> I use it just because I learned that way and I love to get it all over myself.



Hahaha, me too... :thumbup:


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## Waco (May 22, 2008)

I use AL for service entrance cable and nothing -- nothing -- else. I see no sense in buying devices that are rated for both CU and AL if I don't have to and I see no sense in challenging some DIY homeowner to figure out his house is AL wired before he starts a fire.

Think about that Beverly Hills Supper Club fire in Cincinnatti many years ago.

Besides that, the code "assumes" normal wiring is CU and practically says so. See 110.5, 2008 NEC.


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

What devices are you talking about? You know they stopped selling aluminum for 15 and 20 amp circuits a few years ago? And if there was something wrong with using minimum #8 I think it would be banned. Maybe when you were a hack you were not terminating it carefully enough.


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

Waco you just made this post interesting. Thanks.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Waco said:


> I use AL for service entrance cable and nothing -- nothing -- else. I see no sense in buying devices that are rated for both CU and AL if I don't have to and I see no sense in challenging some DIY homeowner to figure out his house is AL wired before he starts a fire.
> 
> Think about that Beverly Hills Supper Club fire in Cincinnatti many years ago.
> 
> Besides that, the code "assumes" normal wiring is CU and practically says so. See 110.5, 2008 NEC.


What the hell are you talking about????


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## dezwitinc (Dec 5, 2007)

I use aluminum whenever possible but I always terminate and splice it with a compression fitting.
You can get a small handtool from Burndy or Ilsco for a few bucks that will do #6, #8, and even #4.
Just keep a box of compression fittings in the truck.

Anti oxidant should always be used for aluminum terminations. Live close to the ocean and it gets used on copper feeders.


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## Waco (May 22, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> What the hell are you talking about????


Get somebody to help you. Oh, and I have used AL to run sub-feeds to load other load centers, but (by golly) the breakers are all rated for AL.

AL rated receptacles and switches are still sold. I wouldn't know if smaller sized AL wire is still sold since I'm no market for it, but it is still listed in the NEC.

Don't worry about no-ox? Are they kidding?


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Waco said:


> Get somebody to help you.


I'll have to find someone who is fluent in gibberish. Your post made no sense.



Waco said:


> Oh, and I have used AL to run sub-feeds to load other load centers, but (by golly) the breakers are all rated for AL.


Gee, me too. All the time.



Waco said:


> AL rated receptacles and switches are still sold.


Yes, for replacement purposes.



Waco said:


> I wouldn't know if smaller sized AL wire is still sold since I'm no market for it, but it is still listed in the NEC.


Just so you know, it is NOT legal nor sold any more. Yes, old installations are grandfathered in.



Waco said:


> Don't worry about no-ox? Are they kidding?


Do I personally use it. Yes. 
Is it code required, NO.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Waco said:


> I use AL for service entrance cable and nothing -- nothing -- else. I see no sense in buying devices that are rated for both CU and AL if I don't have to and I see no sense in challenging some DIY homeowner to figure out his house is AL wired before he starts a fire.
> 
> Think about that Beverly Hills Supper Club fire in Cincinnati many years ago.
> 
> Besides that, the code "assumes" normal wiring is CU and practically says so. See 110.5, 2008 NEC.


 
first, the Beverly Hills Supper Club was not in Cincinnati. It wasn't even in Ohio. It was in Southgate Kentucky.

then, the part about 110.5 is kind of like quoting a law that says it is illegal to cause the death of another. There are many many exceptions to both statements. The exceptions have qualifiers that allow aluminum wire and causing the death of another in many situations. Simply, you must follow the rules imposed on either of those actions for them to be allowed.

read a few sections like 310.2(B), 310.14, 330.104, and many others.


about the Club:



> *Improperly installed* and faulty aluminum electrical wiring is *believed *to have started the fire.


read page 186 of the book reprinted here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NV...X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPA186,M1


and here is a little reading about the legal wranglings involved in the ensuing law suits. Take note that originally, the courts did find in favor of the defendants.
http://www.altlaw.org/v1/cases/504524

While everybody wants to blame aluminum wiring for all the ills of the electrical world, I maintain the position that it is not in fact the aluminum wiring that is the problem but the failure of the devices themselves that have caused the problems. This has been proved out over years and years of use of aluminum wiring, that when used and connected to devices designed specifically with the physics of aluminum wiring in mind, have caused no problems any greater than that of copper wiring.

This is supported by the fact that although the oxide that rapidly forms on aluminum wiring is one of the blamed causes for the problems with aluminum wiring, which would easily be solved by proper preparation and application of corrosion inhibiting materials such a No-Ox and other oxidation prevention materials, still is not a requirement of the NEC. I would suggest that the NEC is often over-reactive and tends to fault on the side of safety using limited support for an action, would have made such prep and use of material a mandatory action long ago it the advisory panel would have found this to be a major contributing factor to the problems associated with aluminum wiring.

Blaming aluminum wiring, in gross, for causing fires is analogous with blaming bullets for killing people. While there is a relationship between each of them and the result of concern, there are many other contributing factors that add to the undesirable result each of them are blamed. It has been proved that there MUST be additional factors involved for either of these causation factors to actually result in the undesirable result. 

Blaming aluminum wiring, and nothing else, for all the damage in any incident would be like blaming the Chinese for all the deaths of the world involving gun powder because they invented it. There are a lot of other factors involved. As I stated previously, those other factors are actually the greater cause of the ill result than the base concern blamed for everything.
----------------


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

nap said:


> While everybody wants to blame aluminum wiring for all the ills of the electrical world, I maintain the position that it is not in fact the aluminum wiring that is the problem but the failure of the devices themselves that have caused the problems.


I attribute the installer who nicked the aluminum wire when he stripped it. The nick caused a weak point in the wire and after so many cycles, the wire would eventually break.


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## Waco (May 22, 2008)

Made enough sense to get a reply from you. And what I said about AL rated devices stands.

The Beverly Hills Supper Club fire was in Kentucky, but most people outside this area are more apt to recognize Cincinnati.

I get a kick out of people who argue like their balls are in a vise!

And, as I wrote, I never -- NEVER -- us AL except for subfeeds. I don't actually give a rat's ass if others use it.

Now, which part of my post was "gibberish?" The part about devices or service feeds or subfeeds and sub panels?


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I prefer to use copper too. It's just a better conductor and an overall better installation in my opinion. 

Aluminum = losers!

haha... just kidding!


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Dude, I don't even know where they sell aluminum wiring. Only the POCO's can use it here. That isn't even a Chicago thing (Though it may be), It is a suburb thing. I think it stems from homeowners tinkering with thier own electrical work and not knowing how to work with al.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

fridaymean said:


> Dude, I don't even know where they sell aluminum wiring. Only the POCO's can use it here. That isn't even a Chicago thing (Though it may be), It is a suburb thing. I think it stems from homeowners tinkering with thier own electrical work and not knowing how to work with al.


because where I live, I can install a feeder for 1/2 the cost of copper by using aluminum.

your problem all started with Mrs. O'Leary's cow and Chicago has been paranoid ever since.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

nap said:


> your problem all started with Mrs. O'Leary's cow and Chicago has been paranoid ever since.


As Charlie Brown said to Lucy:
*THAT'S IT*!!!


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

nap said:


> first, the Beverly Hills Supper Club was not in Cincinnati. It wasn't even in Ohio. It was in Southgate Kentucky.
> 
> then, the part about 110.5 is kind of like quoting a law that says it is illegal to cause the death of another. There are many many exceptions to both statements. The exceptions have qualifiers that allow aluminum wire and causing the death of another in many situations. Simply, you must follow the rules imposed on either of those actions for them to be allowed.
> 
> ...


Background: I am not a sparky but electrical is something I follow closely. If I couldn't be a plumber, sparky would be my first choice in a heartbeat.

That said, your post was impressive. Good job.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

thanks:thumbsup:


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

nap said:


> because where I live, I can install a feeder for 1/2 the cost of copper by using aluminum.
> 
> your problem all started with Mrs. O'Leary's cow and Chicago has been paranoid ever since.


Yeah, I wonder about that. What does a cow knocking over a gas lamp have to do with electrical instalations? Nah, it is because of the strong union-stronghold. Good for all tradesmen in the entire Chicagoland 7 county area.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Actually I lied. I was thinking earlier, we do purchase al wire, but only for buriing service lines when the poco is "too expensive."


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

fridaymean said:


> Actually I lied. I was thinking earlier, we do purchase al wire, but only for buriing service lines when the poco is "too expensive."


doesn't make any diff what the POCO charges; we cannot do their work.




> Yeah, I wonder about that. What does a cow knocking over a gas lamp have to do with electrical instalations? Nah, it is because of the strong union-stronghold. Good for all tradesmen in the entire Chicagoland 7 county area.


don't you know the story about Mrs. O'Leary's cow and the great Chicago fire of 1871 ( the story was a fabrication).

It's just an old joke about Chicago but they got real proactive about fire codes after that and since emt is less fire prone than NM, it just fits the story well.


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## davy crockett (Dec 19, 2007)

Man, I thought plumbers were moody:w00t:


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## Aiken Colon (Jul 14, 2008)

nap said:


> Blaming aluminum wiring, and nothing else, for all the damage in any incident would be like blaming the Chinese for all the deaths of the world involving gun powder because they invented it. There are a lot of other factors involved. As I stated previously, those other factors are actually the greater cause of the ill result than the base concern blamed for everything.
> ----------------


You can blame the chinese for the aluminum then also, they are the ones consuming so much copper and driving the price up. :chinese:


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Speedy Petey said:


> Just so you know, it is NOT legal nor sold any more.


Is this aluminum Romex you are referring to here?. If so can you quote a code please that says it is illegal?. Now as for it not being sold any more you are right about that, they stopped making it for sale in the states a long time ago, but as far as I know, only local codes prevent its use, not the NEC.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

macmikeman said:


> Is this aluminum Romex you are referring to here?. If so can you quote a code please that says it is illegal?.


Nope, I can't. Other than maybe 334.6.
I could very well be wrong. Does it matter??? 

If you find a NOS piece of AL NM cable you gonna use it??? :whistling


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

I recently found almost a whole role of au romex in an attic recently, I just left it. Maybe that was a mistake.


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