# Cut wire splices buried in wall?



## PCI

I do believe there is one code approved piece of hardware that allows you to have a splice inside a wall or cieling. My sparky showed me the product, UL stamped a.d it was around $30 at the time. I pointed it out to the inspector a.d he knew about them.

I think only one brand qualified at the time.


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## Warren

mastersplinter said:


> its the other "crew leader/lead carpenter" for a construction company that I work for. Also a friend. I am however, the one who has to fix it.


Sounds like you will be fixing this by calling an electrician.


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## cwatbay

One (of the many) issues concerning this event is that hardly anyone thinks about the next guy that has to come along. 

I can't think of how many time I've been hit in the head with various types of debris when removing commercial ceiling tiles. I expect some dust, little itty bitty bits of stuff, maybe a dead rat every now and then. But I have had everything from cement, gobs of drywall mud, sections of conduit, tools (hopefully ones I can use), piles of nails, screws, etc. 

What also gets me are loads of wiring (usually network and telco) that is just laying on the top of hard cap. This is where you end up cutting wire, if you haven't come across it too much. 

I tell my guys to get that wire off the surface (ie: top of hardcap and ceiling tiles). Use the clips for tile ceiling support wires, staple and hang from beams and other supports, but get it off the freakin surface. 

Of course this doesn't stop someone from cutting up everything with a wild sawsall.


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## mastersplinter

isn't a new work recessed hi hat technically a buried junction box? You cannot access the connections without removing the entire can. Or am I missing something there?


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## greg24k

Warren said:


> I am confused.
> Was this a friend, coworker, or "other"?


The further we get, the more truth is coming out...:laughing:

To the OP... why don't you cut the BS and just say, I was doing a demo and cut the damn wire, instead of j^*king everyone off in here.

If you doing a demo already, what is the problem to run a new wire from point A to point B and call it a day... tape everything up, paint the wall and fuggedaboutit... it has to be done anyway.


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## overanalyze

mastersplinter said:


> isn't a new work recessed hi hat technically a buried junction box? You cannot access the connections without removing the entire can. Or am I missing something there?


Actually you can access it by removing the can so it's "accessible" A buried wire in a wall that no one knows about isn't accessible, unless you remove finished materials.


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## Calidecks

Tinstaafl said:


> Maybe reaching a bit, but you'd be more likely to notice a scorching smell early on if the box wasn't sealed behind drywall (or whatever). Could mean the difference between an inconvenience and having your house burn down.
> 
> It also makes troubleshooting a circuit much more straightforward if you can count on having nothing but unbroken runs of wire inside the walls.


Yes but the problem wasn't the hidden junction box. the problem was the wiring inside. Not being able to see and/or smell the melting wires was a consequence of the hidden box. A well wired box hidden or not hidden should never melt.


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## mastersplinter

greg24k said:


> The further we get, the more truth is coming out...:laughing:
> 
> To the OP... why don't you cut the BS and just say, I was doing a demo and cut the damn wire, instead of j^*king everyone off in here.
> 
> If you doing a demo already, what is the problem to run a new wire from point A to point B and call it a day... tape everything up, paint the wall and fuggedaboutit... it has to be done anyway.


It really doesnt matter if it was me or another worker, I work for a company who operate as whole. 

He was doing "selective demo" investigating structural issues(with a house built 10 years ago) and he damaged the third floor bath homerun located in the kitchen ceiling for whatever reason. It is a time and material job. Running a new homerun is hundreds of dollars worth the material/ labor that our company will have to absorb.(kinda hard to explain to the homeowner that we screwed up and will have to charge you an additional $1500 for OUR mistake). This is why I came here to ask if there was another way around it? 

I could of just threw some electrical tape on it and said "cant see it from my house" like many of the other hacks out here, but I was looking for a safe, code approved alternative.

I would most definately use a 7 dollar, NEC approved splice even if old time electricians "dont like" them over the alternative that would cost the company 150X as much money.


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## 480sparky

Y'all can flap your gums as much as you want, but try looking it up for a change.



> *300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings —Where Required.*(A) Wiring Methods with Interior Access. ........
> Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, termination point, or pull point, unless otherwise permitted in 300.15(A) through (L).
> 
> *300.15(H) Insulated Devices.* As permitted in 334.40(B), a box or conduit body shall not be required for insulated devices supplied by nonmetallic-sheathed cable.
> 
> 
> *334.40 Boxes and Fittings.
> ..........
> (B) Devices of Insulating Material.* Switch, outlet, and tap devices of insulating material shall be permitted to be used without boxes in exposed cable wiring and for rewiring in existing buildings where the cable is concealed and fished. Openings in such devices shall form a close fit around the outer covering of the cable, and the device shall fully enclose the part of the cable from which any part of the covering has been removed. Where connections to conductors are by binding-screw terminals, there shall be available as many terminals as conductors.


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## greg24k

mastersplinter said:


> It really doesnt matter if it was me or another worker, I work for a company who operate as whole.
> 
> He was doing "selective demo" investigating structural issues(with a house built 10 years ago) and he damaged the third floor bath homerun located in the kitchen ceiling for whatever reason. It is a time and material job. Running a new homerun is hundreds of dollars worth the material/ labor that our company will have to absorb.(kinda hard to explain to the homeowner that we screwed up and will have to charge you an additional $1500 for OUR mistake). This is why I came here to ask if there was another way around it?
> 
> I could of just threw some electrical tape on it and said "cant see it from my house" like many of the other hacks out here, but I was looking for a safe, code approved alternative.
> 
> I would most definately use a 7 dollar, NEC approved splice even if old time electricians "dont like" them over the alternative that would cost the company 150X as much money.


First of all when you investigating a problem you don't take a sawzall to the ceiling... as a matter a fact you never take a sawzall to anything unless you certain there is nothing behind there.

Second of all, if your company messed up, they should worry less about a few hundred they have to dish out to make the repair the right way and not look to cut corners and be liable for a lot more $$$ down the road... sounds like a hack operation to me. 

Third of all after all been said here, you still gonna go, hack it up and hide it... now why would you do that is you not responsible for the damage... and why would you care it will cost your company a few $$ to fix that the right way? You might as well put a piece of bubble gum on it and call it a day.

Forth of all keep this hack BS out of this forum, this forum is for Professional contractors and obviously you didn't come here to learn anything... you already know what you gonna do, you just wanted to hear "its ok to put a band-aid on this"... because you don't have the OO to answer for your screw-up and fix it the right way...


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## Calidecks

mastersplinter said:


> It really doesnt matter if it was me or another worker, I work for a company who operate as whole.
> 
> He was doing "selective demo" investigating structural issues(with a house built 10 years ago) and he damaged the third floor bath homerun located in the kitchen ceiling for whatever reason. It is a time and material job. Running a new homerun is hundreds of dollars worth the material/ labor that our company will have to absorb.(kinda hard to explain to the homeowner that we screwed up and will have to charge you an additional $1500 for OUR mistake). This is why I came here to ask if there was another way around it?
> 
> I could of just threw some electrical tape on it and said "cant see it from my house" like many of the other hacks out here, but I was looking for a safe, code approved alternative.
> 
> I would most definately use a 7 dollar, NEC approved splice even if old time electricians "dont like" them over the alternative that would cost the company 150X as much money.


Should always cut a peep hole first, carefully with a key hole saw, before you bring out the sawzall. But I'm sure this isn't helpful now.:whistling:


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## Tinstaafl

greg24k said:


> Forth of all keep this hack BS out of this forum,


Just a bit harsh, Greg. He did come looking for a "right" way, and there is one (whether you or I happen to like it). Yes, we're ethically if not legally bound to correct our mistakes, but it makes sense to try not to go to the poorhouse while doing so. :thumbsup:


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## mastersplinter

greg24k said:


> First of all when you investigating a problem you don't take a sawzall to the ceiling... as a matter a fact you never take a sawzall to anything unless you certain there is nothing behind there.
> 
> Second of all, if your company messed up, they should worry less about a few hundred they have to dish out to make the repair the right way and not look to cut corners and be liable for a lot more $$$ down the road... sounds like a hack operation to me.
> 
> Third of all after all been said here, you still gonna go, hack it up and hide it... now why would you do that is you not responsible for the damage... and why would you care it will cost your company a few $$ to fix that the right way? You might as well put a piece of bubble gum on it and call it a day.
> 
> Forth of all keep this hack BS out of this forum, this forum is for Professional contractors and obviously you didn't come here to learn anything... you already know what you gonna do, you just wanted to hear "its ok to put a band-aid on this"... because you don't have the OO to answer for your screw-up and fix it the right way...


FIRST OFF i didnt fkin do it. second off I came here to look for an alternative. I didnt come here to seek approval by the allmighty electrical gods for putting a bandaid on the work. I also posted a picture of the product I used initially, in which I wasnt 100% satisfied with. As for caring about the company that i work for saving money...well I guess just call me a good employee? I get a percentage of profit sharing when jobs are complete so I am going to look for the most cost effective way to do so. 

Have you ever heard the expression "there is more than one way to skin a cat". it applies here. It just so happens that both ways are "right" and one takes 5 minutes and 6.99 and the other takes 3-4 hours and a couple hundred dollars in materials. 

Example: if i had you estimate the repair work on this job and I said "I need a price to fix it up to code" it would be in the neiborhood of 1000-2000 with you. And any other electrician who knows of the code and the use of this splice connector would charge $100. who do you think I would hire for the same end result?

When we were doing new construction we had a plumber that "didnt like using pex" and "prefered doing all copper". He no longer works with us.


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## greg24k

:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Tinstaafl said:


> Just a bit harsh, Greg. He did come looking for a "right" way, and there is one (whether you or I happen to like it). Yes, we're ethically if not legally bound to correct our mistakes, but it makes sense to try not to go to the poorhouse while doing so. :thumbsup:


I hear you, maybe it was a little harsh  But I never seen anyone go to a poor house from fishing a wire, especially in a 10 yr old house, with already open ceiling cavity and who knows what else... not to mention when I needed some wires to be fished and I would get to the job thinking electrician wasn't there yet, just to find out he was and everything was already done... and you start looking how the fk he got that wire up there. For the most part its a little Spackle and a touch up.

I have been in many situations during remodeling as I'm sure many here have... were you find something in the wall and a simple thing to do is to splice and have it hidden... but my electrician would never do that, even if there was something in the code that said it was OK, he wouldn't do it...well there is a few things in building code that is approved and I wouldn't do it either, but I guess that is just a few of us.

Nothing personal to the OP... Try not to get to many splinters :thumbsup:


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## greg24k

mastersplinter said:


> FIRST OFF i didnt fkin do it. second off I came here to look for an alternative. I didnt come here to seek approval by the allmighty electrical gods for putting a bandaid on the work. I also posted a picture of the product I used initially, in which I wasnt 100% satisfied with. As for caring about the company that i work for saving money...well I guess just call me a good employee? I get a percentage of profit sharing when jobs are complete so I am going to look for the most cost effective way to do so.
> 
> Have you ever heard the expression "there is more than one way to skin a cat". it applies here. It just so happens that both ways are "right" and one takes 5 minutes and 6.99 and the other takes 3-4 hours and a couple hundred dollars in materials.
> 
> Example: if i had you estimate the repair work on this job and I said "I need a price to fix it up to code" it would be in the neiborhood of 1000-2000 with you. And any other electrician who knows of the code and the use of this splice connector would charge $100. who do you think I would hire for the same end result?
> 
> When we were doing new construction we had a plumber that "didnt like using pex" and "prefered doing all copper". He no longer works with us.


Hey everyone here is Almighty God in theirs own way, so try not to pi$$ anyone off :laughing: Happy New Year:thumbsup:


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## hdavis

The whole point of prescriptive codes is so you don't have to have a EE do all the electrical design / specifications. Code compliance is acceptable in all 50 states, even if you don't like it. Stamped drawings for structural repairs is acceptable in all 50 states, even if you don't like it.

From there, it's a personal and professional choice. Cut holes, fish wires up to the third floor from the panel, patch and paint. That isn't a gimme as a practical thing to do, even with good fishers and patch / paint guys.


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## Young_Buck

Couldn't you put two junction boxes in the wall, with two blank plates? Or install two new lights, and call it a change order. :clap:

Right way: new wire. For the future: a plumber that I used to work with used a sawzall blade cut down to 1/2" so that he could cut drywall and nothing else. Left a ragged as hell cut though.


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## 480sparky

I'd just stick a couple of boxes in the wall and cover the whole mess with a cold-air return register.


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## ohiohomedoctor

480sparky said:


> I'd just stick a couple of boxes in the wall and cover the whole mess with a cold-air return register.


There is some practical genius in that advise..


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## Calidecks

This is what to use if you are cutting long cuts


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## Calidecks

Or this if dust is an issue


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## mastersplinter

Californiadecks said:


> Or this if dust is an issue


wow... what is that? i typically score the area with a utility knife and use a rotozip to follow the scored area (with the depth set to the thickness of the rock )but dust is rediculous and this homeowner is a dust nazi.


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## Calidecks

mastersplinter said:


> wow... what is that? i typically score the area with a utility knife and use a rotozip to follow the scored area (with the depth set to the thickness of the rock )but dust is rediculous and this homeowner is a dust nazi.


It's used for RRP but might work great for those Nazi's


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## Calidecks

mastersplinter said:


> wow... what is that? i typically score the area with a utility knife and use a rotozip to follow the scored area (with the depth set to the thickness of the rock )but dust is rediculous and this homeowner is a dust nazi.


Here's a video

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=2cJtq26K2ak&desktop_uri=/watch?v=2cJtq26K2ak


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## griz

Just curious was the HO informed of the accident & it's fix?

Documented with pics & measurements to location of splice?


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## ohiohomedoctor

I am guessing no. I would have been pushing for and selling a sconce.


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## Calidecks

And if I can't sell one I just happened to be running a free special. It would be 9 time cheaper then running a new home run


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## ohiohomedoctor

Congratulations you just won a free sconce.. :laughing:


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## overanalyze

So what's above this wire? Attic? Another floor? Pull the wire up and add an outlet and a new drop from there...or a junction box in the attic...kiss it. Keep it simple stupid! How you deal with matters like this is what separates the pros from the joes...


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## mastersplinter

overanalyze said:


> So what's above this wire? Attic? Another floor? Pull the wire up and add an outlet and a new drop from there...or a junction box in the attic...kiss it. Keep it simple stupid! How you deal with matters like this is what separates the pros from the joes...


The wire runs from the panel,through a first floor interior wall, does a 90, through the first floor kitchen ceiling, rests directly on top of the drywall, to the exterior wall,does another 90 up, and then goes up to the third floor bath, does another couple 90's inside the wall and feeds bathroom switch. The second floor bath wall it runs through is hardi backer with 1/2 wall tile.

Why it was ran this way? I do not know... It would of made sense to me to run directly from third floor bath, down 3 stories on exterior wall to basement instead of this clusterf**k.


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## overanalyze

mastersplinter said:


> The wire runs from the panel,through a first floor interior wall, does a 90, through the first floor kitchen ceiling, rests directly on top of the drywall, to the exterior wall,does another 90 up, and then goes up to the third floor bath, does another couple 90's inside the wall and feeds bathroom switch. The second floor bath wall it runs through is hardi backer with 1/2 wall tile.
> 
> Why it was ran this way? I do not know... It would of made sense to me to run directly from third floor bath, down 3 stories on exterior wall to basement instead of this clusterf**k.


So if you have been able to trace the crazy path that wire takes, then surely you can add an outlet or two along its path and then you are done!


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## mastersplinter

overanalyze said:


> So if you have been able to trace the crazy path that wire takes, then surely you can add an outlet or two along its path and then you are done!


so if I add an outlet on lets say the first floor. and the breaker is labled "third floor bath" wouldnt that still confuse the hell out of an electrician trying to troubleshoot the electric 50 years down the road? Creating more work for the same end result?


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## skcolo

mastersplinter said:


> so if I add an outlet on lets say the first floor. and the breaker is labled "third floor bath" wouldnt that still confuse the hell out of an electrician trying to troubleshoot the electric 50 years down the road? Creating more work for the same end result?


Have you ever seen a panel that was labeled correctly for every outlet yet? :laughing:


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## 480sparky

mastersplinter said:


> so if I add an outlet on lets say the first floor. and the breaker is labled "third floor bath" wouldnt that still confuse the hell out of an electrician trying to troubleshoot the electric 50 years down the road? Creating more work for the same end result?


*Jeezuskryst!!!!* How many give a damn about what Sparky has to put up with _tomorrow_?


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## ohiohomedoctor

Really. They charge by the hour anyways.. Think of it as doing the entire industry a favor..


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## mastersplinter

480sparky said:


> *Jeezuskryst!!!!* How many give a damn about what Sparky has to put up with _tomorrow_?


I thought that was the whole point of not using the code approved, junction box buried in the ceiling?

Iam debating drawling a treasure map for the next guy with the location of the buried junction. 

itll still be accessable with a jabsaw....


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## greg24k

overanalyze said:


> So if you have been able to trace the crazy path that wire takes, then surely you can add an outlet or two along its path and then you are done!


It's not his fault, it's the company who hired him and his buddy. First they send a guy to find a problem and obviously he don't know anything, so he goes sawzall happy and creates additional problems... then they send this one, who also has no clue what he is doing to try and fix what the problem other one created and most likely will cause more problems... Maybe after all this playing around ends and the HO will file a nice fat Lawsuit, the company will come to it's senses and calls someone who is certified to do this repair and knows what they doing... Like an old saying 
"Trying to get away doing something the cheap way, later will cost you double to get it done the right way":thumbsup:


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## skcolo

I think you got lots of good ideas here already. Not sure what the holdup is.


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## 480sparky

skcolo said:


> ......... Not sure what the holdup is.


We're only on Page 3. The solution will be implemented somewhere around Page 17.


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## skcolo

Take the breaker out. Problem solved.:thumbsup:


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