# Can we educate a customer too much during an estimate?



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Do you think it is possible to educate a customer too much during an estimate?

I try to uncover aspects of the job that the homeowner and more importantly what my competition might miss or not consider and discuss them with the homeowner, not only because they can effect the project and the costs associated with it, but also in hopes of separating myself from the competition and justify my outrageous prices.

On jobs I get I of course attribute this education process as part of what went right.

But on jobs I don't get sometimes I wonder if all I did was educate the homeowner so they know what to ask the next guy they are getting an estimate from.

An example of this: I was doing a quote yesterday and the homeowner had concerns about whether any of the subfloor in the bathroom would need to be replaced do the leaking tiled shower wall that was creating the remodel. Turned out the husband had cut open the drywall ceiling below the leak in the garage so access to the sub-floor was available. I poked it all around and it was solid so I explained that "most likely" no the sub-floor was fine. I had just educated the customer that one of their concerns was no longer a concern and the homeowner now has been educated for free.

Do you think there is a fine line? Do you hold back some things or go over them without detail, or do you go into everything you can think of?


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## Humble Abode (Mar 19, 2005)

You're right it is a fine line. I have found myself worrying about the same thing. 

I like to speak like a professional and say technical things about the work that needs to be performed. For no other reason than I want the potential customer to have faith in my abilities as a professional. When I arrive on an estimate I can't help but wonder if the person is surprised by my age (I'm 26, my partner 23). Most people when they think about a contractor they picture a wise old tradesman.

At what point are you giving up too much is a very good question. I always want to handle my customers in a strategic fashion but this too could turn out to be a detriment, especially if they think you are sizing them up.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Mike Finley said:


> Do you think it is possible to educate a customer too much during an estimate?


Yep! You can confuse a customer right outta a sale. 

In one of my sales tapes the trainer tells a story. I shall paraphrase.

Salesman A and B went to the same sales training by a manufacturer who shoveled all sorts of technical data into their brains. As fate would have it Salesman A & B ended up selling against one another a few weeks later.

The customer asked salesman A if this product would fix her problem and salesman A went into all sorts of technical reasoning, discussing how the product is manufacturered etc...

The same customer asked salesman B the same question, if the same product would fix her problem. Salesman B froze up, forgot all the heaps of technical data that the manufacturer shoveled into his brain and in a panic answered: "Yes". The customer asked when salesman B could begin work.

I am ALL FOR customer education but it takes experience dealing with people knowing how thick you can and should pour it on. Engineers want to know every little detail about every piece of the products I am selling. Engineers want to know how and why. Elderly women usually just want peace of mind, and want to know that my products won't fail. My sales presentation is very different for each type of customer.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Humble, When I show up with a couple of my specialists, we make the TOH crew look like youngsters. Nate is amazingly blond although he just turned 60 just as Dennis is amazingly bald at 58. We are simply honest with what we find, how it will be repaired/upgraded and unforseen circumstances. If we lose the job, WTF?
We seldom lose. Age has some benefits in construction.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Nope, not talking about talking over their heads or talking yourself out of a sale by giving them too much information that clouds their decisions.

Talking about resolving too many of their questions/issues for free and making it very easy on the next guy.

The homeowner's conversation with the next guy after you could go like this "We originally thought we needed x y and z done, but now we know that x and y are not an issue or that y can be taken care of in another way, just give us an estimate on z."


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

I think Grumpy summed it up perfectly.

You can talk yourself out of a sale if you confuse them.
A simple yes or no can go a heck of a long way.

There are times that if you HAVE to present how professional you are, you can do it during the discussion of the product you are pitching.
As far as install related, chances are they will not know what the heck you are talking about, and they will buy from the person who sums it up the easiest.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm often suprised by who knows what. 
This week I did an estimate on a home in a VERY exclusive neighborhood. Quite a bit of water damage to the ceilings, some old, some new. Older home with some vents that we couldn't trace.
The ladies husband was in the hospital and absent. As we described the procedures and uncertanties, the lady was hanging with us. She asked all of the right questions and understood everthing that we said. Makes me wonder where she was earlier in her life.


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

> Makes me wonder where she was earlier in her life.


Or when your competitor left her house before you got there


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

Unless they're bored, or they don't care, I tell them everything.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I agree Mike. When your not hungry, people seem to sense it. I'm to the point where I don't care if I lose a few jobs, actually, I could retire tomorrow. I couldn't be more relaxed when dealing with customers, many times we are equals, sucessful businessmen.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Mike, sounds like we're two peas in a pod, just can't stop.
I have a customer that was the largest manufacturer of industrial abrasives in the US. Jack is well into his 80's and still dreaming up new ventures.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm going to start calling you two Akbar and Abdul since you are such good hijackers. :cheesygri 

Can we all pitch in and get you two a room so you can continue your love fest? :cheesygri


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## Paul Staub (Feb 21, 2005)

I have gotten into trouble overeducating customers. If I tell them too much all the competition has to do is say yes (whether its true or not) to all of the homeowners questions, and present a price that is whithin $2000 either way of mine and he has the sale.

I soon learned that if you just make the customer comfortable with you, give them the info that they want (benefits) and underpromise and overdeliver, you will make them happy.


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## Humble Abode (Mar 19, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> Humble, When I show up with a couple of my specialists, we make the TOH crew look like youngsters. Nate is amazingly blond although he just turned 60 just as Dennis is amazingly bald at 58. We are simply honest with what we find, how it will be repaired/upgraded and unforseen circumstances. If we lose the job, WTF?
> We seldom lose. Age has some benefits in construction.



I agree. I am always trying to make our age work for us also. We do try to learn as much as possible from the older business owners in the trades. Honesty is always going to be apreciated by a customer regardles of age.

sorry to get the thread sidetracked...


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## Bjd (Dec 19, 2003)

Funny thing you mention this, I have 2 supply houses with show rooms for my customer to go and select fixtures from.

The first 1 is from what I call a mega firm, and of course there show room is huge. They sell everything from the plumbing fixtures to lites, fireplaces, hot tubs, and complete kitchens. All sorts of wall coverings and floor coverings.

The 2nd supply house has what I call a mom & pop type setup with enough room to sell just plumbing fixtures with a small show room.

Of all the times I send people to either one, they always seem to prefer the small one, as they do not become overwelmed with materails.

BJD


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## Answer Man (Apr 17, 2005)

I belive you should go over every detail as best as possible. The more client thinks you know the better chance of getting the job. Price isnt always the winner. I try to set some traps for the home owner to use on there next contractors estimate when I can. Ae: If its a plaster job I tell the client if the contractor mentions drywall you shouldnt be using him as with plaster you need imperial gypsum board or blueboard. If he dosnt know the difference don't use him.

The more facts you bring up the more questions they have & if the contractor dosn't mention them then the client dosn't think they have sense enought to ask. Why let them work on my house.


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

> I belive you should go over every detail as best as possibl


Maybe not every detail, but enough at least.
We are pro's and we know why there are good reasons to do things. Sometimes you can confuse the customer.
It takes experience to determine when to hush up and just offer your thoughts, and when to keep talkin.



> The more facts you bring up the more questions they have


exactly.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

I believe you should be ABLE to go over every detail but goign over every detail with every customer will bore some customers. You have to be able to identify each customer's needs.


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

> You have to be able to identify each customer's needs.


That's really the point here.
The best salespeople just know how to communicate with different people on different levels.
If you tell alot about a person after a few minutes of speaking with them, you can talk in a way they can easily understand.
I have had more than one client that really just wanted me to tell them what they need.
Some had a hundred questions..........ahem...........*engineeres*.........ahem........
I mean really....do you really need to know the details on aluminum oxide finishes and acrylic urethane...or is it good enough to just tell you it better than some other finishes...
Do I look like I know the absorption rate of Nylon compared to Olefin? Or the dimensional stability of Amtico? 
I know alot but jeeeesh!

Then again...they build dams...let them ask what they want eh?


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## A.W.Davis (Oct 17, 2006)

BUMP :thumbsup:


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

Grumpy said:


> I believe you should be ABLE to go over every detail but goign over every detail with every customer will bore some customers. You have to be able to identify each customer's needs.


This is my method as well. I work hard to be likable, (IMO the biggest factor in scoring a job). If they seem to want to talk shop, lets talk shop. If they want to tell me about their kids baseball team we can do that.


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

I also realize that I'm not that concerned with scoring every job. 

We have more work right now than we can do, but if things changed and work got slow, I'd sure be thinking about details like this. 

Right now I just tell them what I think.


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## nywoodwizard (Sep 10, 2005)

I use to think too much may not be good ,but after recieving enough feedback from my customers saying "its clear you know what you're talking about,when can you start" I feel a good discussion is ok.On the other hand,Some contractors just don't have the gift and talking too much may confuse some customers,I explain a job at medium detail and always ask if they have any questions. Rule #1 gain the confidence and make them feel comfortable.Don't ramble .


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

The first thing I tell my customers is that I'm not a salesman but rather a roofer or shingle installer. 95% of my competition is washed up realtors selling roofs for a storm chasing company. For the home owners who want to know and care about who's doing their roofs it's an easy sale, especially when insurance is flipping the bill.

With a work load more than I've seen in the past 10 years don't really spend too much time and effort an any given job like I used to.

I give all my customers a brochure, card, and estimate. I offer all home owners a list of names, numbers, and addresses of recent jobs. A few times I've offered home owners to come out to jobs I'm working on to see how things work (usually if it's a similiar style house for color matching ideas). When they pull up and see the attention to detail they know right away there going to make the right decision.

The toughest sale I had to make this year was on a 46sq 10/12 roof in which the insurance adjuster asked my help to measure the roof. Two weeks after meeting with the home owners wife and the adjuster he asked me if I'd landed the job or not. At that point I was determined to meet with the head of the house and I'm glad I did. 5pm sharp Friday sat down with him and he had a 15 question typed out questionair for me! His wife said, "You sold yourself".

Come to find out he was head inspector for Minneapolis for several years, lived and worked with the big gas companies in Saudi Arabia for 20 years and now "retired" works with a bus company who spent 24 million last year on diesel fuel.


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

*Been selling My services 45 years*

I completely educate My customers. Change the plans ,they have ,if it betters the job. Changed a staircase once giving them 2 more feet in a small kitchen.
My son Brian [36] is at My side ,usually doing one better than the old Man.We usually are there because of great work. We don't lose many jobs. I say Mike "keep giving" You'll land most. Also if You lose - On the way out the door turn and say " All is not lost,I got to meet some nice folks. By the way ,it would really help My little bussiness if I had an idea what the competition charges on this project " Detective Colombo ,Peter FORK is a great teacher!


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

Much the same as dougger...

I would add that I'm usually "untangling" all the miss-information the customer has been fed by "salesmen" or jacklegs....

When the customer starts spewing out a bunch of techinal terms and procedures that are the norm anyhow, I can pretty-much figure the jacks' have been there already.

Sometimes, I'll just quietly measure/gather info, and send them a proposal, rather than try to combat the idiot that's been there before me. I'm definitely not a "salesman"...I'm a contractor; My time/effort is better spent other issues/next job, etc....


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## Big Bob (May 30, 2007)

Basic salesmanship. Closer early and Close often, Givem what they need, to get it off the table. Yes you can give them too much, if you don't follow through with a close. If you do NOT ask for the job, the folks will think you don't want it.

Be proud of what you do, it's OK to soft sell. I have a 99.9 closure rate. They catch me in the driveway as I'm walking away. : Wait a minute , we want you to do the job. when did you say you can start?

It is all about comfort. !!!!


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

I think there is a difference in selling the client and informing the client, maybe too much sales talk.


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## ElliottDoor (Aug 6, 2007)

Interesting subject.

I thinks its important to keep your distance from the H/O. I mean be cordial, professional, serious, funny, comforting.. All the things each different relationship has based on what you perceive the customer wants but dont befriend them in a way that will make it hard for you to sale them something in the future or possibly be so understanding to their needs that they take advantage of your time. 
People will do this to you if you let them and Im still learning how to deal with customers. I dont think you can put your finger on it though. Everyone is different. I think the most important thing to do is follow your gut. If you think this person will screw you later or maybe become a problem then dont do the job. 
Sorry to say but women are very hard to please sometimes. Very miticulous to the point of what the neighboors would think. When its like this you have no clue what this HO will do or wants you to do so when I sense this, Im outa there.

As far as educating them too much I think thats a valid argument. I dont think you should though. Keep it to the point, yes or no. More often than not you'll end up eating some words or speaking before you think. You cant please everybody so it is what it is and if they dont like you for whatever reason, move on to the next customer.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

basically, whatever you say ... you better do. sounds simplistic. but it's more like

whatever the prospect _heard_ is what you'll be doing when they become client


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## ElliottDoor (Aug 6, 2007)

hahaha true, very true


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## evansbrothers (Mar 3, 2007)

*blah blah*

I had his exact discussion last night with a girlfriend who works as the office admin. for a property management co. I often do jobs for. She asked why I give the HO so much info while doing estimates and why my written estimates are so detailed and itemized. "None of the other contractors are so specific in their bids. I hate to see you waste your time when the HO really doesn't understand or care about the technical specifics." 
I know that I do have an almost unstoppable impulse to point out bad workmanship, crappy or improper installation and cheap materials during the course of an estimate. It just infuriates me when I see this sh*t and I jcan't stop pointing it out. Its like I get posessed by the ghosts of tradesmen past. Most recent incident began as an estimate to renovate a hall bath first, then add a new master bath. The customers bought the place 2 years before and the previous owner had "remodeled" it. Throughout the house there was clamshell door casing used as chair rail, 6" combination baseboard buttjointed with different style rosettes as door /window casing (you know...for that "antique" look)), 1/4 round shoe moulding used for crown moulding and exterior pt ballusters for handrail pickets. While checking the soil pipe in the basement the place reeked of mildew. The HO said the same fine craftsman had installed a sump pump in a utility room to correct a flooding problem. Indeed he had...with the sump drain pipe exiting up & outside the house into a ridiculous drain gully made out of mortar which emptied into two metal window wells filled with compacted crushed bluestone and no exit drain. The result was the sill plate and beam had shifted 4" , the interior of the block foundation wall was soaked and crumbling and the floor joists were rotting beneath the room they wanted to convert into a master bath (complete with double size jacuzzi tub, marble floors and double walk in shower). I explained this issue had to be addressed before the bathroom work and advised they wait until they could determine how much the foundation repair and new exterior drainage trenches would cost. 
The husband had a somewhat dazed expression on his face, his wife was crying and their dinner was burning. After a minute he said "Well, can't you just fix all this goddamn sh*t?" I declined because I realized it all must have seemed (it certainly did to me anyway) like a typical scare 'em then sell 'em tactic. Everything I said was valid but in essence I derided and critiqued and advised myself right out of two jobs.
I gave them what amounted to a free home inspection, laid out the work for the foundation contractor and postponed or lost the remodel job. (and my dinner was also burned when I got home. So much for my tasty Smithfield ham) BUT...had I not done that I would've been saddled with dealing with that nightmare once bathroom work began. 
I always think being honest and informative is being helpful but I doubt after I left they said "Who was that masked man?". All in all...I need to shut the hell up and just do the estimate. (and not leave the oven on).


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