# I hate uneducated "know it all" contractors...



## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

So today, as I arrived at my job site, and the HO had a friend over in her living room. I thought nothing of it, said hello and wandered back to the bathroom where I had put in a Wedi shower pan. It's pretty much identical to the Kerdi shower pan system, in which it's a closed cell foam pre-formed pan sheathed with a fiberglass mesh and portland cement coating. The shower I'm putting in is a curbless, or level access shower because the homeowner has MS and a curb would be a trip hazard for her.

If you don't know how to install one, please watch this video

So as I get set up to finish the last coat of drywall in the bathroom, the friend comes in to check out my work. After a minute of looking around, he asks me, "What is this? Some kind of backerboard for a shower floor?"

I explain to him that it's a closed-cell pre-sloped pan with a cementuous coating designed to adhere to thinset.

He than asks, "Well what goes up behind the wall sheathing?"

I say, "Nothing. The system doesn't require a traditional pan liner. In fact, it's been used in Germany for decades and has reported a much lower failure rate over time than traditional PVC rubber pan liner showers. The pan is rabetted, and then a Urethane adhesive is applied between the pan and the sheathing. This ensures a waterproof barrier, completely endorsed by the manufacturer."

I must have offended him at that point, because he snapped, "Well, I've installed hundreds of liners, and I've never had one fail." Then he goes on, "I mean, this can't be all there is. If there's just one tiny pinhole in this adhesive then you'll have leakage. This isn't right..."

Growing frustrated, but maintaining my composure, I said, "You're right, if there is a hole then there will be leakage, which is why you lay a thick bead all the way between the joints, and then after you set the panel, you pump the joint full of sealant and smooth it down."

Then he turns to the HO and says, "You should really look this up online. This isn't right." as if I'm some sort of hack who's clueless about shower pans.

Now I'm normally about as passive a person as there is, but that tore it. Who was this guy, coming in, telling my HO, with me in the room no less, that I don't know what I'm doing because he hasn't kept up with the technology? I finally snapped. I told him, quite angrily, "Listen, I don't come onto your jobs and tell you that you aren't keeping up with the latest products. I also really don't appreciate you coming in here and implying that I don't know what I'm doing, when you have no idea what this product is or how it works."

To this, he just muttered, "Well, I'd better go before I cause anymore trouble." as if I'd somehow crossed the line.

Seriously, the balls on this guy to come onto my job and tell me I don't know what I'm doing, when I'm following manufacturer specs on what has statistically been proven to be the best type of system out there. I can't stand theses jackasses, and it pains me to know there are more of them out there trying to scare up business using their "old school" methodology.

What a prick.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

"Well I have a friend"........

That sucks. Sounds like you handled it like a pro. He has no right.

Did the HO question you after that or even apologize for their "friend"?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I crave those opportunities, like a sickness.

First I buy into their BS like I'm learning something knew, like an innocent child.

Then I slowly lead them into technological questions...eventually they hit a wall and start making stuff up and trying to sound intelligent thinking they are the big man on campus and I'm just a pup.

Its at that point where I start answering my own questions, in detail, then start going further in depth; the teacher has now become a teachee.

At this point the patronizing and belittling begins, then I pull rank, slap em in the face, roll em over a barrel and listen to em squeal like a pig!

:thumbup:


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Good job on toning that guy down... I was in those situations in the past as an employee and they can get ugly, whether its a contractor or a know-it-all relative...


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

I apologized for getting in his face to the HO, but she said that she understood. She said she realized that there are multiple ways of doing things that yield good results.


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

Tech Dawg said:


> Good job on toning that guy down... I was in those situations in the past as an employee and they can get ugly, whether its a contractor or a know-it-all relative...


I am an employee of a larger company, but this guy was so far out of line that I felt I'd lose HO confidence if I didn't stand up for myself.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Wow. I think you handled that very well. I don't think I would have been nearly that polite.

I probably would have asked my client to please leave us alone for a moment, shut the door, then cut him a new one.

I like Inners' approach also.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

and you should, you being able to give tech specs on the product will reinforce their confidence in your ability to install it..

as for the uneducated contractors,, i use to work for one and it drove me insane. he wanted to do everything the old school way or in a way that would drum up more hours... but the extra hours were never teh ones you want... hes want something done a specific way and i knew it was going to be a problem down the road, i would tell him that... sure enough hed ***** at me because it would be a call back. i walked on him after 2 years on and off.. every other foreman hes had has walked as well for the same reason plus some other things


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

im fond believer in that technique inner, i pulled that on the labor who was working with brutus a couple months ago. we were pouring concrete on a icf for habitat for humanity, the labor was trying to tell me how to do icf work.. this was his first one and im a licensed installer of nudura plus arxx... after about his 3rd comment i started getting extra tecnhical with my wording... he backed right off and was like "whoa.. this guy sounds like he knows what hes doing" brutus then told him who i was and what ive done


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

I would love to run into a situation like that, especially in our area! I have ripped out well over a 100 tile showers in my day and have yet to find a pre-slope. What I do find is mold and bacteria, and the source of that "funky" smell that used to permeate the bathroom!
Never used Wedi myself, although I am not ruling it out. I have for years been using kerdi but have recently switched to hydroban. 
It takes me less than 5 minutes to sell my customers on the "modern" methods of building a custom shower. 

Btw, I think you handled yourself quite well!


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## Ceramictec (Feb 14, 2008)

I almost threw a plumber out the window one day for a similar thing. I was using Kerdi and had it all done, he came in to look at the tub deck plumbing and started yapping about you don't need this type of waterproofing, a pan liner is the best and cheap, tile & grout is waterproofing enough, just tend your caulk in your corners yearly. :blink:

I told him that's why I'm ripping out so many failed showers here because of guys that are educated like you. he took offense and that's when it escalated. the homeowner asked him to leave the house until I was done since she was the one who looked up Kerdi, read up about it in detail and found me as an installer in the Tampa area.

:thumbup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

so...a pin hole eh?...good to know for the next person i see doing it:detective:


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

I hate contractors that have a piece of paper that says they are contractors , but have no real life experience , they are just sales idiots...


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

same goes for project managers with big commercial companys, whose credentials are a business degree and a minor in arts. as opposed to being a guy who worked his way from the ground up in the company


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

So where " its not what you do , but what you know " stands..


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## thomasjmarino (May 1, 2011)

woodworkbykirk said:


> same goes for project managers with big commercial companys, whose credentials are a business degree and a minor in arts. as opposed to being a guy who worked his way from the ground up in the company


Yep, just check out the job openings.
Doesn't matter if you have no experience as long as you have that Bachelors degree. Could be in anything, doesn't matter.
F-in morons are so f-in stupid that they won't even look at a guy with years of field experience if he doesn't have that degree.
Completely mindless!! :no::no:


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## ee3 (Feb 10, 2006)

[
"has statistically been proven to be the best type of system out there". 
by who?? I would call BS on this point.Nothing against the system,but Chloraloy or TS (CPE) has been installed without failure in a whole lot more jobs..Wedi is a fine product, but where are these stats? Where did they come from..Do they have any idea how much pan is sold..Thousands of times more then Wedi..
Not saying anything bad about them but I call BS !!


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## StoneTooling (Sep 12, 2011)

You handled it well and know-it-alls are usually quite annoying. If he was such good friends with the HO, I wonder why she just didn't hire him.

Way to stand up for yourself and as long as you leave with a happy client, you should pat yourself on the back.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

It's the installer that makes the system go right. I've seen some good product go to waste because of installer error. Lots of good membrane installed without corners on threseholds etc...


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

StoneTooling said:


> You handled it well and know-it-alls are usually quite annoying. If he was such good friends with the HO, I wonder why she just didn't hire him.
> 
> Way to stand up for yourself and as long as you leave with a happy client, you should pat yourself on the back.


I'm not saying this is the case, but most times people pass up on the "small guy" to go with a large company that offers financing and sells the payment...


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

Tech Dawg said:


> I'm not saying this is the case, but most times people pass up on the "small guy" to go with a large company that offers financing and sells the payment...


True enough. I believe in the "little guy", but my company keeps me busy and I do good work (or so I've been told.) If people are willing to pay for my company's sales department, advertising budget, warehouse and my boss' very comfortable lifestyle, so be it. :thumbsup:


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

ee3 said:


> [
> "has statistically been proven to be the best type of system out there".
> by who?? I would call BS on this point.Nothing against the system,but Chloraloy or TS (CPE) has been installed without failure in a whole lot more jobs..Wedi is a fine product, but where are these stats? Where did they come from..Do they have any idea how much pan is sold..Thousands of times more then Wedi..
> Not saying anything bad about them but I call BS !!


You are assuming that CPE showers are installed properly. As I understand it, the vast, overwhelming number of CPE showers installed in Ontario are done so with no pre-slope. As I've stated before, I've ripped out a ton of them and have yet to find one. I also understand this seems to be a "regional" thing. 

Building a shower with CPE without a preslope = failure

While I will agree that the CPE system can be installed successfully, in real life, in my area, it does not happen.


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

jarvis design said:


> You are assuming that CPE showers are installed properly. As I understand it, the vast, overwhelming number of CPE showers installed in Ontario are done so with no pre-slope. As I've stated before, I've ripped out a ton of them and have yet to find one. I also understand this seems to be a "regional" thing.
> 
> Building a shower with CPE without a preslope = failure
> 
> While I will agree that the CPE system can be installed successfully, in real life, in my area, it does not happen.


Exactly. Whether you use a CPE or PVC pan liner, the biggest problem is installer error. If there's no pre-slope, that's a problem. If the sheet isn't seated properly at the drain, that's a problem. If the installer doesn't inspect the sheet for tears before installing, or accidentally creates a puncture during installation, that's a problem.

EE brings up a good point that pan liner systems can and have worked for years, and honestly I can't find the statistics that were shown to me. They were shown at a Wedi presentation and showed that the Kerdi and Wedi closed cell foam systems had the lowest failure rate, according to studies done in Germany, where the two companies are based and have been operating much longer.

The system can work, and has worked for years, but the Wedi system is better because it reduces the installer error factor. In addition, while they are more expensive material-wise, they save so much time. If I have my drain stubbed out, not even to a specified length, here's what my installation time is like.

1. Take measurements and transfer to basic pan - 15 min

2. Cut pan. - 10 min

3. Mount drain fitting, dry fit pan and adjust if necessary - 10 min

4. Rabbett the edges - 10 min

5. Mix thinset and apply to pan and subfloor - 30 min

6. Set pan, walk all over it, set bags of thinset on it for constant weight - 5 min

7. Cut drain to proper height with inside pipe cutter and mount drain - 10 min.

8. Sheath shower walls, set the curb and seal penetrations - 2 hours

9. Clean up - 30 mins

Total time: 4 hours

I could probably take it down to 3 hours if I worked faster, but I find that I make too many mistakes if I rush anything. If I start this in the morning, I can take lunch, set the floor of the shower in the afternoon and be tiling the walls the next day. The pan is closed cell foam, so if I have a piece of glass in my boot and step on the pan, it's still waterproof. Also, the system is so simple that if you've done one, you've done 100, and the slope is factory perfect. If you are capable of following instructions, using basic tools and being generous with the sealant, you really can't screw it up.

I just don't see any advantages, outside of a little bit more customizeability, to a mud-base membrane system. The extra cost of the Wedi system is comparable to extra labor costs of the mud base system in my opinion. That said, you certainly aren't a hack if you use a pan liner.


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## ee3 (Feb 10, 2006)

--Jarvis --we,ve been down this road...
im also assuming that the Wedi is installed right.
If you install it wrong it also = failure.
Install them both right, = a trouble free shower.
you cannt compare something done wrong to something done right.
the lack of a slope will not cause a failure unless you are talking grout discoleration/mold. 
In Canada not sure your seeing CPE pan ,maybe PVC but I doubt CPE.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

opcorn:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

It's pretty clear, installed incorrectly = great chance of failure.
Install correctly = great chance of avoiding failure.

I would believe that theory would hold its weight in any country.


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## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

ee3 said:


> --Jarvis --we,ve been down this road...
> im also assuming that the Wedi is installed right.
> If you install it wrong it also = failure.
> Install them both right, = a trouble free shower.
> ...


Hey Eric, I was in your building to pick up a drain and asked about seeing you..... you weren't there. :sad: Musta been drinking champagne in Monty Carlo or something.

Quite a nice operation you got there.

Pre slope or dry pack I see no difference as long as they are done right. I'll go with a pre slope if its a standard, but if it's a odd ball layout and I'm mixing anyways to fill in the extra's I'll do a full drypack base.

As far as what happened to the OP, I've meet those types but it would never occur to me to bad mouth a guy and his methods on HIS job. Guess I lack the ego.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

And so we don't have any more misconceptions, Paulie, I believe, is talking about the difference between a preformed pan or setting a custom one.

He's a smart guy and knows that a dry pack also gets presloped. :thumbsup:


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## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

angus242 said:


> And so we don't have any more misconceptions, Paulie, I believe, is talking about the difference between a preformed pan or setting a custom one.
> 
> He's a smart guy and knows that a dry pack also gets presloped. :thumbsup:


I musta chose the wrong words, I understand..... well as much as a poor Michigander can.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I knew what you were saying, Paulie. However, I just wanted to make sure no one else was going to confuse preformed with preslope. :thumbsup:


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## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

angus242 said:


> I knew what you were saying, Paulie. However, I just wanted to make sure no one else was going to confuse preformed with preslope. :thumbsup:


Thanks Angus, I'm glad you know what I mean, those men in the little white suits that put me in the rubber room never seem too. :blink:


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