# How do you guys deal with aggressive customer.



## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

I would spin the whole thing around and ask "what's your budget?"

Cabinet prices can vary as we all know. So can flooring and other elements.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Send me $20 if you are so concerned with my links John, and I'll think about devoting some time to them in order for you to sleep better at night.

And reread my reply, I rewrote in while you posted, maybe it's more clear. If not I can't help you any further. 

This whole thing is a simple process. I deal with exactly these issues that you think are insurmountable on a daily basis and they take up about 10 seconds of the a conversation with a lead.


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

Jason W said:


> I would spin the whole thing around and ask "what's your budget?"
> 
> Cabinet prices can vary as we all know. So can flooring and other elements.


We ask this question, and I can't tell you how many people get coy. They don't seem to understand that we will give them as much bang for their buck as we can. We have a set markup and our prices are competitive with the better fence companies. But we won't compete with lowballers - if they want cheap fence, they can have it, but not from us.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Susan Betz said:


> We ask this question, and I can't tell you how many people get coy. They don't seem to understand that we will give them as much bang for their buck as we can. We have a set markup and our prices are competitive with the better fence companies. But we won't compete with lowballers - if they want cheap fence, they can have it, but not from us.


I just had one like that last month. I gave them a price on some of the work but stopped at the kitchen work because they didn't give any thought to there budget amount for this work. I explained that in there space I could give them a kitchen for 10k that they wouldn't be very proud of and I could also give them a kitchen for 100k which would be over the top for there needs. I told them that it is a good design followed by careful planing that would bring the best results for them and cautioned that any contractor who would throw out a number without cabinet, floor, counter top, and appliance choices would be leading them down the wrong road.

Well she got other contractors to show up, and yes, they started throwing out all types of dollar amounts. When she asked what they had in mind for cabinets and flooring they said they would look into it and let her know what her choices were. Most of them never called back. I got a call to come back out to meet with her on Tuesday. Why, because she figured out that I wasn't about to be irresponsible and throw out a useless bunch of numbers that meant nothing. We will sign a design/estimate agreement on Tuesday where I will be paid in advance to give her a responsible estimate and she will be able to see what she is getting and make changes accordingly.

John E, Good luck with wingin' it.


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## bdog1234 (Feb 25, 2008)

I disagree with a lot of you. 

What about the customers needs? 

I mean after all they are paying for your services, shouldn't you try and make them happy? 

How is price shopping a waste of time? Wouldn't some one be an idiot if they just had something done with no idea what the going rates are? 

I fully understand our time is valuable, but I know whenever I am making a major purchase, I research it, weight the various options, etc. and I expect my customers to do the same.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

bdog1234 said:


> I disagree with a lot of you.
> 
> What about the customers needs?
> 
> ...


Price shopping customers isnt the problem, everyone does it like you said. The problem is the customers that want a price auction. They get everyones price and they try to force everyone down as far as they go. They only care about the price not the quality.


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## cincycontractor (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm just a rookie but I always start my estimates out with a little info about the process (estimate/review/plans/contracts) and a worksheet which includes job specs and budget. If the two don't match I just let them know there not realistic goals. 
I like what someone said about showing previous work and ballparking it, however I'm sure some would debate that and it definately depends on the job details


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

cincycontractor said:


> I like what someone said about showing previous work and ballparking it, however I'm sure some would debate that and it definately depends on the job details


I agree with this, in my past work anyways. Ive met way to many people who have like a deck on a 2nd floor apartment thats rotted. They need it replaced and are thinking $400-$500. When you say more like $6000 they about pass out. There would have been no point in figureing out exacly what it would cost because I knew what they were thinking. This deck thing happend a few days ago.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

And all of these wonderful posts come down to the same thing in my mind:_* Serve your client's needs while serving your own.*_

_ Don't waste time..._
If you're not asking about budget, schedule, materials, etc. at the first meeting with your client, then you're not getting down to business. You're wasting your time and your client's time. 

_Offer solutions, not products..._
How do you expect to pass the qualifying test your client is putting you through? Do you think charm and a bunch of pretty pictures of past jobs are going to get you the sale? Pfffffftttt. Not likely. Meeting your client's needs is what gets you the sale. Solving their problems is what gets you the sale. Anticipating their problems and offering solution choices are what get you the sale. Crowing about the fine joinery in your finished product is just vanity (pardon the pun) and again, a waste of time.

_Try expressing instead of impressing..._
Tell your client's what you can do to make this job better or more usable for them. Show them the value in the services you provide that others are not interested in (like grab bars, comfort height potties, wider doorways, warming drawers at a comfortable height instead of near the floor, small accent windows that add natural light and charm for little cost, etc.). Don't try to impress them with how good your company is, show them. Show them you're truly interested in this being their project, that it reflects them and meets with their wishes and desires. Offer suggestions on how to make the budget work for them, instead it just being a number they feel enslaved and limited by.

_Get to the point..._
You need the answer to four basic questions before you can reasonably discuss a project with a client.
What is the scope of the project?
What is the schedule for the project?
Who makes the decisions regarding the project?
What is the budget for the project?
If you don't know the answer to those four questions at your first meeting with the client, then you're wasting your time and your client's time. These are the four questions Michael Stone recommends in his book, _"Markup & Profit: A Contractor's Guide"._ A great book for our industry. All aspects of it.

_ Design services are intellectual property,... _
and are therefore a product that must be accounted for, just the same as installing a counter top. You have fixed and variable costs associated with creating that design and you should be paid for those and earn a profit on them. I suggest that if your design services are built into your overhead then you can charge for them the best way that suits you. Before, during or after. Makes no difference to the bottom line.

If you don't find yourself doing this on every job you discuss with a client, then ask yourself, "whose time am I wasting and why?" and "Is there a way to make my time work better for me or to earn more in less time?"

Food for thought.


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Send me $20 if you are so concerned with my links John, and I'll think about devoting some time to them in order for you to sleep better at night.


I expect the real reason why you don't want to resurrect that website is that the 'free' grab bars were about as convincing as a free lunch. What surprises me is that you continue to leave the link in your signature. I expect, though, it's the fact that I've pointed it out that makes you obstinately leave it there.

John


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

john elliott said:


> I expect the real reason why you don't want to resurrect that website is that the 'free' grab bars were about as convincing as a free lunch. What surprises me is that you continue to leave the link in your signature. I expect, though, it's the fact that I've pointed it out that makes you obstinately leave it there.
> 
> John


fftopic:

Come on John, enough already. Are you trying to get this thread closed?


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Jason W said:


> fftopic:
> 
> Come on John, enough already. Are you trying to get this thread closed?



Point taken

John


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## Kennyboy (Dec 23, 2007)

wow, thanks for all these input.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

OK folks, let's keep it professional. If you want to sling pies, take it to PMs or email but quit screwing up other folks posts with your egos.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

Double-A said:


> OK folks, let's keep it professional. If you want to sling pies, take it to PMs or email but quit screwing up other folks posts with your egos.


We need a fighting forum on this site. :boxing:


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

Michaeljp86 said:


> We need a fighting forum on this site. :boxing:


Before we can do that, I'd like to know how many guys here own guns, how many guns each has, how tall are you, what is your "boxing" weight, your mixed martial art skills, etc.... then we can properly divide your forums into :

1. Heavy weight championship;

2. Middle weight champ;

3. Bantam weight champ (Turkey type);:w00t:

4. Featherweight champ (Chicken type) , and...

5. Ant/Fly weight champ!:laughing:


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## Greg P (Feb 10, 2007)

Man I wish we could move this to a bar like the good ole' days before the internet.

I could see one of those free grab bars coming out of the van real quick.


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

SelfContract said:


> Before we can do that, I'd like to know how many guys here own guns, how many guns each has, how tall are you, what is your "boxing" weight, your mixed martial art skills, etc.... then we can properly divide your forums into :
> 
> 1. Heavy weight championship;
> 
> ...


 I'll start, 12 assorted handguns, 2 shotguns, 6 rifles.
I'm 6'7" tall, Weigh 265. Have never boxed but can hold my own in "street".
Back belt in karate 2 years training in tai-qwan-do.
I have a punch impact ratio of 925 psi.
Since I am basically a coward I prefer to take on the fly weight division!!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Greg P said:


> Man I wish we could move this to a bar like the good ole' days before the internet.
> 
> I could see one of those free grab bars coming out of the van real quick.


Would that be one of the real ones or one of the "non-existant" ones? And yeah, I totally agree, I think there would be a whole lot less insulting personal comments. Internet muscles aren't as easy to flex when there is the risk of losing a tooth. :no:


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

I sub out most of my fighting stuff. I do the easy ones myself, but all the difficult stuff goes to guys who _do_ know the colour of the boathouse at Hereford 

John

(anybody spot the reference?)


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## hardworker (Mar 19, 2008)

Hello. You know i agree with both sides but at the same time you have to be firm with them sometimes. The saying "the customer is always right" is not the real truth anymore. Customers get to rant all day about the businesses but yet we dont have the chance to fight back. I stumbled across this site Business Beware. you can file a complaint about customers you are dealing with and look up others that have been filed. So when you get to do a job in the future you can see if the customer has been filed against. Great concept and thing for us the business people. Dont let the customers walk all over you. I would check out the site if I were you and lets fight back!


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

hardworker said:


> Hello. You know i agree with both sides but at the same time you have to be firm with them sometimes. The saying "the customer is always right" is not the real truth anymore. Customers get to rant all day about the businesses but yet we dont have the chance to fight back. I stumbled across this site Business Beware. you can file a complaint about customers you are dealing with and look up others that have been filed. So when you get to do a job in the future you can see if the customer has been filed against. Great concept and thing for us the business people. Dont let the customers walk all over you. I would check out the site if I were you and lets fight back!


Hardworker, welcome to the site.

I'd invite you to make an introductory post in the Introductions forum and tell us about yourself and your business and to fill out the balance of your profile, specifically, where you are located. State/region is fine, city is better.

Also, I'm curious as to why your first two posts are touting a website? Is this just coincidence or are you affiliated with them? We have strict guidelines on advertising and a wolf in sheep's clothing gets the roughest treatment around here.

Looking forward to your introductory post.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Double-A said:


> Hardworker, welcome to the site.
> 
> I'd invite you to make an introductory post in the Introductions forum and tell us about yourself and your business and to fill out the balance of your profile, specifically, where you are located. State/region is fine, city is better.
> 
> ...


I thought the same thing. Went to the site and found they charge $5 for one day of use:blink: No thanks!


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

Jason W said:


> I thought the same thing. Went to the site and found they charge $5 for one day of use:blink: No thanks!


$5 a day for a place to complain about HO's? Most people do that for free right here.


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## MarkNoV (Apr 29, 2006)

> who do know the colour of the boathouse at Hereford
> 
> John
> 
> (anybody spot the reference?)


Ronin. Great movie, great cast.

Mark


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

Jason W said:


> I thought the same thing. Went to the site and found they charge $5 for one day of use:blink: No thanks!


I went to the site and did a search and came up with nothing.
This is his 2nd post on talking about this website.:shifty:


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

wizendwizard said:


> I'll start, 12 assorted handguns, 2 shotguns, 6 rifles.
> I'm 6'7" tall, Weigh 265. Have never boxed but can hold my own in "street".
> Back belt in karate 2 years training in tai-qwan-do.
> I have a punch impact ratio of 925 psi.
> Since I am basically a coward I prefer to take on the fly weight division!!



Don't mess with me! I have at least 14 nerf guns of various types (ok well they're my sons but I'm sure he'd let me borrow them), one rusty pellet gun somewhere in the shed, and I've been threatening to make a potatoe canon for at least 5 years.
I'm 5' 11", 230 lbs. (if I skip breakfast and lunch), never boxed but served as sparring dummy for every kid in the neighborhood (until I snapped but I don't remember much of those altered states).
White belt in Judo (is that a real martial art?) when I was 9. 
I'm pretty sure I could put my fist through something not too hard *AND I CAN WHIP ANY MAN ALIVE* and if this wasn't the internet and you were here I'd have to show you *JUST HOW BAD I AM!*


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## guru (Mar 19, 2008)

*guru*

if a customer is aggressive by nature, give it back to them, thats the way deal with everything, so deal with it. example; he want the price now, so give him a high one and cost it out later. if you are the only contractor willing to do business in the way the customer wants==you get the deal. being in control by giving control.:notworthy


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

smellslike$tome said:


> Don't mess with me! I have at least 14 nerf guns of various types (ok well they're my sons but I'm sure he'd let me borrow them), one rusty pellet gun somewhere in the shed, and I've been threatening to make a potatoe canon for at least 5 years.
> I'm 5' 11", 230 lbs. (if I skip breakfast and lunch), never boxed but served as sparring dummy for every kid in the neighborhood (until I snapped but I don't remember much of those altered states).
> White belt in Judo (is that a real martial art?) when I was 9.
> I'm pretty sure I could put my fist through something not too hard *AND I CAN WHIP ANY MAN ALIVE* and if this wasn't the internet and you were here I'd have to show you *JUST HOW BAD I AM!*


:laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbsup:


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## fathersonfab (Apr 27, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> ****
> 
> Do you know who doesn't charge for cabinet design? -- *Home Depot and Lowes.*
> ****


MIKE,
*
Your point here is TOTALLY validated...* 
At least in my Southern California area.. Home Depot *DOES *charge to design layouts... you need to make an appointment and it costs $100

It does exactly what its supposed to do.... weed out the price shoppers. I know, because I pretended to be a shopper so I could get a quick test drive of the 20/20 software they use :whistling 
When they said $100 bucks, I said no thank you.

Anyone who doesn't charge for design time is foolish...


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

Mike, I appreciate your demeanor in this thread. You are a true pro and a credit to this site.


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## Wrenchboy (Oct 28, 2008)

Fellas,Fellas,

Over the years I have learned,,,[thru much heartache]

"If you don't ask,you won't get,,"

Ask for what you're worth and remain silent.,,,

If they're still talking to you ,pull out a contract and have em sign,,"Press down hard on the clipboard Maam"

My best

Dave Doyle
Monrovia ,Ca


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## Timster (Feb 1, 2006)

Wow, that guy really does have an unlinkable business website as his sig, after all these months. :laughing:

That just made my day. arty:


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

and I though this thread was about those aggressive housewives :thumbup:that don't take NO for an answer.:whistling


Hey a guy can dream, can't he?  I did have a few awkward situations in my time though.


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## madman (Sep 21, 2008)

*Aggressive Customers*

Well ahm bout 250 pounds got no front Teeth, Bald usually three day syubble, I reckon im kindah mean lookin. When someone starts to belittle me abuse me piss me off i just tell em where to go. I also tell em if you so smart how cum you askin me to fix something for you you dumb ass sorry son o *****. Works pretty good. Hope this helps its mah first postin. Madman


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## madman (Sep 21, 2008)

*Sorry Guys*

I was readin my first and previous Posting. I gottah apologize to you all. I forgot to mention im a Plumber and yeah i never wear underwear on the Job and i got a big hairy asscrack. Strange how often i catch housewives starin at me as im layin sprawled under a Kitchen Sink or a Toilet ,wraslin with some dumb ass piece of Pipin. Thanx Madman


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

with a former GC, company policy was to not talk to the homeowner about anything pertaining to the job unless it was simply saying "its coming together nicely or good day to work outside", 

on one job, we were doing a complete reno with addition, the home owner wanted a large garden shed and the front deck redone but it wasn't on the contract, he would at least one of us every other day to do it, we'd simply state you'll have to talk to the boss, he'd come back the next day, asking about it again then ask how much would it cost for the after hours rate. to stay out of trouble we would just tell him more than than the regular hours rate and that would turn him away.!


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

HAHA most of my employees would do it on the sneak after hours and borrow my tools to do it!

Anyway back on topic...agressive customers..just give them a ball park number.. then tell them you can give a closer number if they are interested....even if it's your first rodeo. But what pisses me off is the guy that doesnt want a general contractor but keeps asking for your advice. I hurt their feelings and they go away.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

mics_54 said:


> HAHA most of my employees would do it on the sneak after hours and borrow my tools to do it!
> 
> Anyway back on topic...agressive customers..just give them a ball park number.. then tell them you can give a closer number if they are interested....even if it's your first rodeo. But what pisses me off is the guy that doesnt want a general contractor but keeps asking for your advice. I hurt their feelings and they go away.


I once got a call from a homeowner asking me to come to his project and give him a quote on a job. He had seen my sign in front of a remodel I was doing.

When I got there it was one of those cases where the contractor who had been doing the work had walked off the job and the HO wanted me to give him a price on completing the project. 
But what he wanted me to do first (and before we had agreed on any pricing for anything) was to go around the house and detail in writing everything I could see that in my professional opinion the original GC had done wrong. 
I passed, the potential blowback from that seemed mighty steep, and in the first five minutes with this guy I had formed the opinion that he was the reason the other guy walked in the first place.
This yutz continued to call me asking for free advice until I told him I charge for my time like any other professional (including him, no doubt)
and got his buzzy a** off me.


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## RayGoerdt (Nov 13, 2008)

One thing I would suggest is to have two or three base figures per foot of cabinet run, a high end, low end and a middle ground based on material options that you offer. In my experience these people are looking for a ball park figure and as long as you stress to them it is a ball park figure things should be o.k.


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