# Countertop scribing, how close is within reason?



## Antropovsky (Apr 12, 2014)

I've remodelled my kitchen. I decided to leave a chimney in the middle of my island, and build my cabinets around it. I Had the countertops installed this past week and the installers are a 1/2" short of the edge on both sides of the chimney (pic #1/#2) as well as one part of the backside a gap gets as big as 1/2". I was hoping that they'd get close enough that a subtle bead of caulking would hide the seem no problem. Was I expecting too much (knowing that the chimney isn't perfectly square)? I did pay for them to do some cardboard templates beforehand.

Also... the kitchen sink install is 1/2" off centre with the cabinet, again am I expecting too much?

And lastly the installer talked me out of caulking the back of the countertops (where it meets the wall). He said that there were a few nicks in the paint that I should touch up before caulking, otherwise it would look ugly. 


Were my expectations a little too high?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Unacceptable.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

They didn't even offer to profile the return? I'd be pissed about that install.


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## Walraven (Jan 24, 2014)

For something that was templated that's a rubbish result. I wouldn't accept it.


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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

Some template....


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Those edges should return past the chimney then die into it. 1/4" gap maximum. It's a do-over. 

How crazy does missing the sink center make you? I missed the center in my own house years ago, but the sink was a 60/40 so it really didn't show.


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## Johnny_5 (Apr 24, 2014)

I'd consider 1/4" to be the maximum caulk-able gap. If they templated correctly, I'd expect smaller than that. Is the sink centered on a window above? Sometimes cabinet layouts don't jive precisely with existing window layouts, so the sink will get cenetered on the window because its much more noticeable than the centering on the cabinet, especially with tall faucets.

That said, more info and pics would be nice. If it's a 'u' shaped top made in one piece, and the backside of the chimney is smaller than the front side, it would be impossible to make the backside gap to match the chimney and still fit around the larger frontside. That would also account for the lack of returns.. If that's the case, they should have suggested doing the top in two pieces to avoid unsightly gaps, and to be able to finish returns. Of course, depending on the material, you might then have a visible seam.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Your result is the reason you do a template... 1/8" gap on each side for expansion/contraction is standard... 1/4" is too much... 

1/2" off on the sink means either they didn't use a square to set the center line aligning it with the center of the window/sink cab or the window / sink cab were not centered with one another and they were working to accommodate them being off... we can't see that, only you can...

I would DEFINITELY have them re-do it... print a copy of this page out...


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## illbuildit.dd (Jan 7, 2015)

They should have never left the property with it uncompleted. Unbelievable . And then bs'ing you


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Looks like they need a tweak with a framing hammer.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

Antropovsky said:


> And lastly the installer talked me out of caulking the back of the countertops (where it meets the wall). He said that there were a few nicks in the paint that I should touch up before caulking, otherwise it would look ugly.
> 
> 
> Were my expectations a little too high?


Good grief, how much caulk was he intending on smearing? 

I advise going right past whomever you have been talking to and get as near to the owner as you can to have him out onsite and ask him point blank if this would acceptable in his home and if this is how he does business.

Everyone else is going to fluff feathers


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## deter (Apr 4, 2013)

when you make them redo it, have them add a radius/return to those corners too


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

I wouldn't accept that even on my house..


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Scribing isn't the word for that. That's [email protected], no question. And the replacement better be 100% no charge, too.

Reminds me of a 36" granite vanity I had installed for a client. Old house, super shape, and the new undermount sink was supposed to be offset in order to be centered between the ceramic soap dish & toothpaste holder...directly under the mirror. I was there for templating and spec'd it that way. They showed up with something off by 2.5" (centered on stone instead) and expected me to take it. Sorry folks, no way. I had to be persistent and elevate my temper to get them to do it, too.....come to think of it, I haven't given them a job since and they had several from me up until that episode.

The place I use now always templates with a 3D CAD device which is mounted on a fancy tripod and connected to a laptop , gets it nice and tight all around. I only discovered that thing a couple years ago, but it's the way to go, for sure. Templating time is much faster, too.


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## Antropovsky (Apr 12, 2014)

Johnny_5 said:


> I'd consider 1/4" to be the maximum caulk-able gap. If they templated correctly, I'd expect smaller than that. Is the sink centered on a window above? Sometimes cabinet layouts don't jive precisely with existing window layouts, so the sink will get cenetered on the window because its much more noticeable than the centering on the cabinet, especially with tall faucets.
> 
> That said, more info and pics would be nice. If it's a 'u' shaped top made in one piece, and the backside of the chimney is smaller than the front side, it would be impossible to make the backside gap to match the chimney and still fit around the larger frontside. That would also account for the lack of returns.. If that's the case, they should have suggested doing the top in two pieces to avoid unsightly gaps, and to be able to finish returns. Of course, depending on the material, you might then have a visible seam.




Thanks for this response, and I apologize to everyone for the lack of info. You are correct, the back of the chimney is smaller than the front (back measuring 18 1/4" front measuring 17 3/4". and the Countertop material is laminate. 

Here is a picture of the design. Does knowing this new information, make their job adequate?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Antropovsky said:


> Here is a picture of the design. Does knowing this new information, make their job adequate?


No.

All that does is point out that a little more time is needed to do a reasonable job. They could slide the base in place, then fit the top and attach to the base, but it seems like they just made it so the whole thing would slide in place, and no returns. That's a partial job they did.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Antropovsky said:


> Here is a picture of the design. Does knowing this new information, make their job adequate?



There is no way they are not responsible for the F/U. They took the measurements, they made a template, they fabricated or ordered the tops, they installed them.... Right?

If anything that gooney goo hoo offset, of the 45 degree miter, into the island top did 'em in. Like all the measurements where right. But they didn't add to the top, offsetting the offset, and came up short. Still thier F/U


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

MarkJames said:


> Scribing isn't the word for that. That's [email protected], no question. And the replacement better be 100% no charge, too.
> 
> Reminds me of a 36" granite vanity I had installed for a client. Old house, super shape, and the new undermount sink was supposed to be offset in order to be centered between the ceramic soap dish & toothpaste holder...directly under the mirror. I was there for templating and spec'd it that way. They showed up with something off by 2.5" (centered on stone instead) and expected me to take it. Sorry folks, no way. I had to be persistent and elevate my temper to get them to do it, too.....come to think of it, I haven't given them a job since and they had several from me up until that episode.
> 
> The place I use now always templates with a 3D CAD device which is mounted on a fancy tripod and connected to a laptop , gets it nice and tight all around. I only discovered that thing a couple years ago, but it's the way to go, for sure. Templating time is much faster, too.


Templating may be faster but not more accurate. The problem is the transfering of the digital template to the product, thats where many errors occur.

Especially on site, as this one is. The template can be directly place on the top to check for errors.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

rrk said:


> Templating may be faster but not more accurate. The problem is the transfering of the digital template to the product, thats where many errors occur.
> 
> Especially on site, as this one is. The template can be directly place on the top to check for errors.


Ok, but don't jinx me. So far so good. We just replaced tops in a small kitchen that required an L top to be pre-cut (and assembled) to fit between right corner and left pantry cabinet. Turned out perfect. The seam is nearly invisible.

Btw, it seems more accurate to me, since they take enough 2D digital reference points (all corners, edges, etc.). Maybe I'm just lucky.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

That's way too much of a gap. The whole point of the template is to get it right to the wall. 

What I have found is the company's that have the water jet cutters can get it almost perfect but the ones using just wet saws seem to do it the quickest way possible. I have had them as much as 3/4" out with the places that use wet saws. The worst yet I seen a water Her cut is about 1/4" which was unacceptable also but tile was going over the back of counter so it just about covered it. 

Also the method they use to take measurements makes a big difference. Below is what I have found from best to worst. 

1.corrugated plastic templet
2.laser grid (not sure name)
3.cardboard 
4.tripod with line system (not sure name)
5.lazer with little tabs they point beam at and measure distances. 
6. Measure by hand and right on paper! 

I always try to get them to do number 1 when they can. But some think their lasers are better but they only take a hand full of reference points and that's not enough. They are about 12" which in 12" here the wall can be out 1/2-3/4"


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

rrk said:


> Templating may be faster but not more accurate. The problem is the transfering of the digital template to the product, thats where many errors occur.
> 
> Especially on site, as this one is. The template can be directly place on the top to check for errors.



Our guys use a laser templating setup. Laser on a tripod and they shoot several points and there is an app that maps it out.

They do use squares and straight edges not just point to point on a 10' run and hope it works in the middle.

My understanding is it's all CAD stuff. So they have a guy at the shop converting all that info to usable data for a CNC cutting bot to do the cuts.

They set one slab and it cuts that one while they set another slab on the other side of the machine. It's pretty impressive. We are having really nice accurate slabs installed.


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

I know a guy that does laminate tops who doesn't template at all.

On one job we basically had to reset all of the cabinets when his countertops didnt fit. 

Then, of course, it was our fault the finish labor was over budget....

The coolest templating I have seen was with stickers and a camera. 

The guy had round, reflective stickers of varying sizes that he put on the cabinets and then took pictures. That was it. Cool.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Is that a post formed top? If it is the only thing on that corner will be a self edge, no radius. 

Those of you who have guys that use digital templating, how is the top double checked ? How do you show your customer what the overhang at the eating area will look like ?

Every top I have ever ordered that was templated, I signed the actual template approving the actual size/shape of the top. There was only 1 problem in many years, they placed template over the top to verify whose mistake it was and they cut new top. How would that be resolved if it was digitally templated ? Not a chance I would sign a digital template.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

rrk said:


> Not a chance I would sign a digital template.


That's like saying "I'm never going to use pneumatic nailers." Hand templating is old-school and nearly obsolete. 

The lasers and photo telemetry are mathematics and when operated properly are incredibly accurate and consistent.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

The granite company I recommend to my customers uses lasers....they have a dedicated guy just for measuring. Out of 6-8 jobs I've been involved with, each one has been dead-on.
I've been impressed.
I don't know what they use for cutting.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

My counter top guys use a digital measuring device.

It is dead nuts on.

Goes back to the shop & downloads in to a CNC machine.

Ends up being a no scribe install....:thumbsup:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

This was a pita. It was an 11 month project. I was waiting for Mr. inspector to give me final.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Did you pay enough to expect something better? I don't think any proper stone fabricator would do that. The lack of a return suggests that they were just guys with a saw.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

None for nothing but it looks like a hack job...that counter should fit like a glove if it was properly templated.

First of all I never seen a cardboard being used for templates. My installers and myself for that matter (if I'm making any kind of template) use 1⁄8" plywood strips which can be cut easily with a utility knife and you can make a perfect fit matching any wall profile or anything you have to go around, even uneven chimney profile for this matter... Everything gets stapled to prevent movement as you lay it out and all intersecting connections get hot glue to make sure it will stay intact and it will keep its shape during transport, not to mention fabricators also appreciate a good template when you can easily lay it out on the flat material surface which is ready to be cut and marked.

With that said, I agree with others, that job wouldn't be and shouldn't be accepted.

Good luck, I hope it works out.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> That's like saying "I'm never going to use pneumatic nailers." Hand templating is old-school and nearly obsolete.
> 
> The lasers and photo telemetry are mathematics and when operated properly are incredibly accurate and consistent.


Nonsense, we have tons of fabricators here I think 10% or less use digital templating. The issue I still have with it is getting the customer to actually see what overhangs at eating areas and such look like, With many customers you cant explain a 12" from a 10 1/2" overhang until they actually see it. They can't visualize it until they sit down at the template on the counter.

Regular tops with out big overhangs are not an issue


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Did you pay enough to expect something better? I don't think any proper stone fabricator would do that. The lack of a return suggests that they were just guys with a saw.


Bob, I couldn't agree with you more my friend, that doesnt look like a job done by a professional fabricator.

But in any case like this, I guess it does comes down to "you get what you paid for" 

Occasionally when HO tell me "you are more expensive then others we got quotes from" I have one answer for them " You think I'm expensive!? wait until you see what it will cost you when you hire someone who don't know any better"

Speaking of templates, I found a few pictures when we were making a backsplash template, this is how I do it using strips of plywood and the finished product


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

We just throw a piece of scrap material on the counter if the aren't sure about the overhang.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Nice . you have to have a method to insure a result . quality is never an accident . this entire thread had one underlying message to all of us ...."if you are a pro, you watch what you are doing when you set up a job, period . " whether its a cabinet, top, tile installation , or remodel or new build ....if you know what you are doing you don't let this happen when your name is on the line .


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## wbr (Feb 19, 2011)

Antropovsky said:


> You are correct, the back of the chimney is smaller than the front (back measuring 18 1/4" front measuring 17 3/4". and the Countertop material is laminate.


Since it's an island,if there is room, I would undercut the wide ends of the chimney with a grinder 3/8" or so deep, the height of the countertop and slide it in.


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## darthdude (Dec 30, 2012)

This reminds me of the first kitchen I ran as a job lead. I was about 24 and the counters and matching window sills had no backsplash, or trim to cover any gaps. Everywhere there were 1/4-3/8" gaps and the countertop companies lead installer, who was probably pushing 60, gave me a speech about how "I've done it this way for 30 years! Just caulk it!". I told him that he had been doing things wrong for 30 years and they would have to recut some things. The whole thing ended up with my boss coming by and saying he agreed with me. They ended up making new counters on their dime and we have not used that company since. Give them the opportunity to make it right and if they give any lip, or refuse, go from there......


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## Antropovsky (Apr 12, 2014)

Hello everyone, I appreciate all the responses. 

i know a couple posters have asked if I paid enough to warrant a better result. I hired a big box company whom I deal with, they hired the countertop company.

With that being said, I stated my complaints to the company and they came back to the big box company saying that this is the best job they could have done, because the post is out of square. 

How should I respond?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Antropovsky said:


> Hello everyone, I appreciate all the responses.
> 
> i know a couple posters have asked if I paid enough to warrant a better result. I hired a big box company whom I deal with, they hired the countertop company.
> 
> ...



That's a poor excuse. 

Tell them you want a full refund or for it to be fixed. If they disagree then speak to manager of store then if that fails dispute it with credit card.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

If it looks like a home owner did it,
It's not good enough.


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## Antropovsky (Apr 12, 2014)

How could this have been properly installed? What would a quality installer have done?


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Your main problem was getting it from a big box store. My laminate top supplier also supplies to all 3 big box store chains in the area , they do laminate, solid surface and granite. Ever hear the phrase " speed, quality or price, pick 2 " ? The big stores tell him the price so cutting corners is how they get to that price in the short time frame they demand. Unfortunately that is the way it works

When they do work for a contractor the price goes up sightly but the quality improves greatly and your issue would not have happened. Had you found a supplier on your own your most likely would not have had this problem.


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