# A Few Code Clarifications



## dcapone (Aug 7, 2008)

As mentioned in an earlier post, my primary job is low voltage installations, but I am currently remodeling my home and handling rewiring a lot of the electrical into a more organized, clean, and (current) code compliant manner.

To that end, I have a couple questions on the NEC code that I am hoping some clarification / confirmation on.

1. There is an exterior door that swings open against a short wall that is around 3 feet in length. At the end of the 3 ft, there is another 3 ft interior doorway between rooms. Since the wall behind the doorway is over 3 feet, I am guessing that I am stuck adding a receptacle to the wall, correct? There are not any exceptions for walls that doors essentially open against huh? Because of the door opening, I see no situation where the outlet would ever be used, but I also don't see any exceptions to it. Since this is a remodel and there is no outlet there now, can it not be installed because I am technically not making any changes to that "circuit" or wall section, even though I am running a brand new circuit for the rest of the room?

2. Is it ok to put a hallway receptacle on a bedroom circuit? 

3. I have attached a visio of my current plan for the layout of the SABC for he kitchen / dining area. Can anyone see any issues with the current plan or have any suggestions for laying it out in a better way?

4. I have attached a pic of a shallow old work box I found that is 17 cubic inches. I have an interior wall constructed with 2x3 and standard old work boxes are 14 cu inches which would not allow a plug to be installed in it on a 20A circuit (Box fill, 2.25 * 7 [2 device, 2 conductors in, 2 conductors out , 1 ground] = 15.75). Can the "flat, enclosed" portion of the box be placed behind the drywall and still be code compliant of being accessible because of the opening exposed through the drywall for the receptacle?

5. When running a switch loop with 12/3 or 14/3 wire now that a neutral is required at the switch box, is there a particular requirement (or general recommended standard) for which wire supplies the hot to the switch box or is either way used since both black and red are "hot" "color codes"? IE, the old way you sent the hot to the switch box using the white wire in NM cable provided it was taped black at both ends and the black HAD to be used to return the power to the fixture. With 3 wire cable does it matter which cable sends power to the fixture? I intend to use the red to supply the switch and the black to the fixture, but I was just curious if there was any established rule regarding this.

I appreciate the time to quickly answer these questions.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

The answer to #4 is yes - that's how they're intended to be used.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Where are you located? The AHJ may have their code amendments on line. They may not require the receptacle behind the door. I'd check with the AHJ on #1.

#2- yes.

#3- looks fine to me. You don't show a disposal or dishwasher .

#4- never used one, but the math and build says it should work.

#5- have no clue, we do not use NM here. 

Tom


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## dcapone (Aug 7, 2008)

1. I am in RI. We have next to no amendments to NEC 2011 which is what we are on. Only real amendments are to meters and multi-dwelling units for the most part. Guess this means that an outlet is required there.

2. Thanks, thought so.

3. There is a dedicated circuit for the disposal / dishwasher. Thinking of combining these into a single 20A circuit. Does NEC 2014 still allow for that as long as there is a disconnecting means (which has been previously interpreted to be an outlet)? Essentially hardwire some flexible cord to the dishwasher and plug both units into a duplex outlet.

4. Thanks, they appeared to be designed exactly for that.

5. still curious as to the general practice on this.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

dcapone said:


> 1. I am in RI. We have next to no amendments to NEC 2011 which is what we are on. Only real amendments are to meters and multi-dwelling units for the most part. Guess this means that an outlet is required there.
> 
> 2. Thanks, thought so.
> 
> ...


I'd check with the AHJ, the receptacle on the other side should be able to service that wall. You are allowed to turn corners.

I go single circuit for the dishwasher and disposal. I'll also add the range if it is just a clock and igniter. Don't forget to break the tab off the receptacle to isolate each opening. 

I have not seen the 2014 NEC. 

I'd did have one inspector tell me I could not use a cord on a dishwasher and run it into the cabinet next to it. He considered the side of the cabinet a wall. I placed the receptacle behind the dishwasher. Long enough cord to slide the unit out to unplug it. Also may violate the in plain site rule.

Tom


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## Selectric (Sep 22, 2013)

#3 - Check your spacing on the wall receptacles. From the sketch it looks like you have a duplex every 6'. Unless you really want that many receptacles you can space duplexes every 12' for wall receptacles.

#5 - No code requirements just personal preference. I like to do power down on black and switch the red.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Selectric said:


> #3 - Check your spacing on the wall receptacles. From the sketch it looks like you have a duplex every 6'. Unless you really want that many receptacles you can space duplexes every 12' for wall receptacles......


Incorrect. You can't measure 12' to the first recep and go from there. You must have a recep within 6' first, THEN you can go 12'.

The NEC never mentions 12'.


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## dcapone (Aug 7, 2008)

The extra receptacles are there for a combination of desire to have them and to comply with code.

3 of the receptacles on the sketch are switched receptacles for planned lamps in the corner of the rooms. We therefore desire the additional receptacles to have "always on" receptacles available and also to comply with the 6' rule as from what I understand the switched receptacles do not count as receptacles for the 12' rule.

Now that someone brought up turning the corner for the 6' rule which I agree is allowed, I do not believe I need the additional outlet next to the cabinets in the kitchen area (see attached new diagram). I was just so focused on the walls on a room by room basis, I did not consider this.

Also, the existing electrical is the house is wired quite interesting (to me anyway). None of the electrical boxes use wire nuts. The way they wired everything was stripping away a section of the insulation "midwire" is the best I can describe it and twisting all of the midwire copper exposure together. It then appears that they then put some solder on the connection before taping it with electrical tape. I have no idea of the safety and/or if this was ever the "standard", but my issue now is that when working in the box and reconnecting new switches and other devices with wirenuts, a lot of the existing wiring that I intended on reusing would no longer have 6 inches of unsheathed wire available to it in the box after cutting the wire back to the exposed copper portion. What is the proper way to deal with this situation? Are you required to rerun these wires? Can these wires be left short as a result of them being existing work? Are you supposed to pigtail all of those wires to add length? If so, can they be pigtailed in the same wire nut as used to make other connections or must you pigtail it first by itself to "extend the wire" and then use a separate wire nut to make your connections?

I appreciate the assistance and the answers.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

How short will they be? Install pigtails.

Tom


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

dcapone said:


> The extra receptacles are there for a combination of desire to have them and to comply with code.
> 
> 3 of the receptacles on the sketch are switched receptacles for planned lamps in the corner of the rooms. We therefore desire the additional receptacles to have "always on" receptacles available and also to comply with the 6' rule as from what I understand the switched receptacles do not count as receptacles for the 12' rule.
> 
> Now that someone brought up turning the corner for the 6' rule......


Duplex recepts that have both recepts switched do not count in the 6' rule. Split or half-hot recepts DO.

Turning a corner generally does not 'restart' the 6' rule. Only openings like doors and stairs do, or a transition to a different type of living space.


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## dcapone (Aug 7, 2008)

Is the transition from living to dining area a transition that restarts the 6' rule?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

dcapone said:


> Is the transition from living to dining area a transition that restarts the 6' rule?


It's aways a judgement call. Depends on the layout, and the interpretation of the inspector.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

The amount of time been wasted worrying about installing a couple extra outlets, they could have been in. Besides, you can never have too many.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

TxElectrician said:


> Besides, you can never have too many.


Oh yes you can


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

I knew when I typed it, someone would post that pic.


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## Selectric (Sep 22, 2013)

480sparky said:


> Incorrect. You can't measure 12' to the first recep and go from there. You must have a recep within 6' first, THEN you can go 12'.
> 
> The NEC never mentions 12'.


I never said anything about the starting point. I said spacing 12'.

You are correct, the NEC does not mention 12'. 

To be code compliant you would be required to have a receptacle outlet behind the door.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Selectric said:


> I never said anything about the starting point. I said spacing 12'......


So if you start out measuring 12' to the first recep, you're not in compliance right off the bat.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So if you start out measuring 12' to the first recep, you're not in compliance right off the bat.


Well.... we got a fine linguistic pissin issue going.... 

but 480 in all honesty, you have to admit that Seelectic did say "*spacing", *which generally means between two recepticals, and did not address starting points.

Of course, I doubt anyone thinks your explanation is not more complete and helpfull to us. Thanks for the help/education/assistance and more thorough explanation.:thumbsup:

(I'm likely wrong/incomplete, but for simplicity I like to think of a receptical within six feet of everywhere along a wall, realizing that lamp cords can't be expected to go accross traffic paths.)

Just jumping into a bar room squabble where I don't belong 

Best


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

I just picture reaching any point on the wall with a six foot cord from the receptacle... That's how a sparky explained it to me years ago.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

TimelessQuality said:


> I just picture reaching any point on the wall with a six foot cord from the receptacle... That's how a sparky explained it to me years ago.


This is pretty much how the NEC reads. No space along the wall can be any more that (fill in the feet depending on the room and application) from a receptacle.

If anyone cares to try and read or comprehend the 700 plus page book that changes every three years, which reads like a law tome and refers to other codes in circles, go at it.

Plain and simple. 6' is the rule for most areas in a home. 6' from any doorway and then the rule applies and you can go up to 12' depending on the layout. Substitute 2' for this on kitchen counter tops. In a hallway over 10' in length, one receptacle must be installed.

Trying to translate the code book would take thousands of pages, and when the local amendments come into play, it would add a hundred or so more depending on what they want.

Sorry to be a stick in the mud, but that is what we are saddled with when it comes to electrical codes. It's simply not simple.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> This is pretty much how the NEC reads. No space along the wall can be any more that (fill in the feet depending on the room and application) from a receptacle.
> 
> If anyone cares to try and read or comprehend the 700 plus page book that changes every three years, which reads like a law tome and refers to other codes in circles, go at it.
> 
> ...


And all too often, those who have never bothered to even read the NEC, in addition to the many who don't understand it, tend to make erroneous generalizations. They toss out 'the 12-foot rule,' '12 is only good for 20amps,' 'splices are not allowed in panels,' 'the ground and neutral are tge same' without even verifying the facts.

And yes.... the NEC is more of a legal document than anything else. It has to be in order to stand up in the many court cases it has to bear.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

rselectric1 said:


> If anyone cares to try and read or comprehend the 700 plus page book that changes every three years, which reads like a law tome and refers to other codes in circles, go at it.


I bet Mike Holt can and would. He probably has the whole damn book memorized.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> I bet Mike Holt can and would. He probably has the whole damn book memorized.


I doubt he has it memorized ver batum.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

rselectric1 said:


> This is pretty much how the NEC reads. No space along the wall can be any more that (fill in the feet depending on the room and application) from a receptacle.
> 
> If anyone cares to try and read or comprehend the 700 plus page book that changes every three years, which reads like a law tome and refers to other codes in circles, go at it.
> 
> ...


Excellent clear thought ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Thanks


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## dcapone (Aug 7, 2008)

Sorry, this weekend was consumed with my girlfriend's baby shower so I wasn't able to monitor this thread as often as I would have liked...

Since, running wire in my home is not my full time job, I only have a couple hours a night to work on the house, so typing a forum post here or there does not delay me too much. My whole issue, is that I really do not want the plug behind the door. I feel it will look out of place and never be used (a lamp certainly won't go there and there are a dozen relatively nearby outlets for vacuums etc). As such, I am omitting it for now. It is almost as easy to add it later as if I added a plug to that wall I was going to do it with an old work box anyway.

I have run into a different issue however today. The "front" interior wall is of 2x3 construction. This is the wall I intend to mount a flat screen TV onto. I was hoping to use a recessed electrical outlet with recessed LV cabling to provide a neat install. As a LV guy, I literally have all homeruns into the basement for TV, audio, etc all tied together with an HDMI matrix and RF remote controls. As such, the only thing that gets mounted in each room is the television itself and I would like to keep all wiring hidden as I have done in other rooms.

Are there any code compliant recessed outlets that fit in a 2x3 wall and would allow the installation of the plug with a 12/2 in and out (7 total conductors by NEC counts or 15.75 cu in)?

I am also assuming that the recessed wall outlet could not be wired in any manner that would qualify it as a "tap" where I could run 14/2 to it off of a 20A 12/2 circuit and therefore be able to use a 14 cu in box?


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Check ADI for the AV box, or place a 1" spacer behind the flange of a common one. 1/2-1” spacer behind the TV mount if need be. 

If the drywall is removed, shim the studs and build out the jambs. 

Tom


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## Selectric (Sep 22, 2013)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Well.... we got a fine linguistic pissin issue going....
> 
> but 480 in all honesty, you have to admit that Seelectic did say "spacing", which generally means between two recepticals, and did not address starting points.
> 
> Of course, I doubt anyone thinks your explanation is not more complete and helpfull to us. Thanks for the help/education/assistance and more thorough explanation.:thumbsup:


This is why I stopped responding. 480 is still stuck on the whole "starting" point. I was not going to get into a debate about the whole issue. He is not the only one that knows how to interpret the code.


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## dcapone (Aug 7, 2008)

As an update to this in case anyone happens to stumble upon this thread...I happened to find a recessed box that only recesses about an inch where the manufacturer is claiming 18 cu in for the electrical portion of the box. Once it comes in and I confirm the markings on the box, I will post a link to inch for general knowledge of any potential searchers later on.


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## dcapone (Aug 7, 2008)

So, I received the box and the electrical portion is marked for 18 cubic inches of space. I haven't installed it yet so I don't know how easy it is to work with, but it is extremely shallow (3/4 of an inch), so it is an ideal box for anyone encountering shallow walls.

It is made by Arlington industries and it is model TVL508.

http://www.discounthomeautomation.com/Arlington-Low-Profile-TV-BOX-for-Shallow-Wall-Depths-AATVL508


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

dcapone said:


> So, I received the box and the electrical portion is marked for 18 cubic inches of space. I haven't installed it yet so I don't know how easy it is to work with, but it is extremely shallow (3/4 of an inch), so it is an ideal box for anyone encountering shallow walls.
> 
> It is made by Arlington industries and it is model TVL508.
> 
> http://www.discounthomeautomation.com/Arlington-Low-Profile-TV-BOX-for-Shallow-Wall-Depths-AATVL508


DCapone.... Maybe I'm mixed up... did not reread the whole thread, but the part of that box for make-up, sure does not appear to be 18 for box fill computations.

If I undersatnd that box, it is just a type of recessed box that probably is especially devised for flat screen TV wiring.

There is a shallow box, sorta similar to that one, where 1/2 of it is 5/8 recessed such that it tucks behind the drywall and appears to be a one yoke box... but you can wire in the recessed part for box fill issues.


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## dcapone (Aug 7, 2008)

MTN,

From the pictures on the various websites I found the item, I had the exact same doubts as you which is why I placed about a dozen phone calls to find out the box fill before placing an order and then was still doubtful after ordering. But the box is stamped for 18 cubic inches of fill. The electrical portion technical raises about 1/4 to 1/2 inch above the wall but no where near enough to prevent a TV etc from being mounted over it without any problems. I agree that the find was/is rare which is why I thought it helpful to post it.

I will take a picture of the inside of the box later on with the marking and post it as well.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

dcapone said:


> MTN,
> 
> From the pictures on the various websites I found the item, I had the exact same doubts as you which is why I placed about a dozen phone calls to find out the box fill before placing an order and then was still doubtful after ordering. But the box is stamped for 18 cubic inches of fill. The electrical portion technical raises about 1/4 to 1/2 inch above the wall but no where near enough to prevent a TV etc from being mounted over it without any problems. I agree that the find was/is rare which is why I thought it helpful to post it.
> 
> I will take a picture of the inside of the box later on with the marking and post it as well.


Not sure I have a box down in my collection that I'm referring to, but I'll look and post a pic if I have one also.

Best


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

Air seal boxes on exterior walls are required around here.
http://youtu.be/HROFed0GXZ4

Air sealing is something I suggest you look at overall for your project. There are significant comfort and energy savings that can be had. Every quality contractor is into it whether required or not.


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## dcapone (Aug 7, 2008)

This was on an interior wall (the recessed box anyway).


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

DCAP......

Attached is the shallow "single yoke" box that I was refering too. It's fill is 18 ci.... it's max depth is 1.5....

Picture to follow.....hit wrong button


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## dcapone (Aug 7, 2008)

MTN,

I used a few of those boxes to run standard electrical outlets (not recessed outlets) along the 2x3 walls. The box fill on the units I had was 17 cu in which was still enough for the device, and 12/2 in and out which is all I needed.

I have attached a picture of the marking on the box I am using for the recessed outlet. Marked 18.3 cu in in the electrical side of it. It appears to use a standard decora outlet turned perpendicular to the wall when mounted. It also has room for the low voltage connections I need as well.

Only recesses around 3/4 inch, so it is definitely handy for when you need something to mount a tv to a shallow wall and get power there.


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