# alternatives to ditra



## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

Well I am wondering what options are out there for situations where the height of the tile floor is an issue. You got cement board and ditra of course, but I have seen where some of you guys put down some sort of fabric (noble or dalseal i believe). 

Which that sounds even better to put down something a fraction of the thickness of ditra. What are the disadvantages to this? You loose the "uncoupling" that the ditra offers, but on the other hand, can you use a better thinset?

Is it safe to say the a thin membrane is equivalent to cement board only thinner??:whistling


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Noble TS and DalSeal TS is the same thing... you can use modified thinsets.
The cost may be a little more per sq. Ft than Ditra but you can buy it by the foot and have minimal waste... the 5 ft width is a bonus as well!!!! :clap: 
If your going for waterproofing on a floor and have to lap fabric then you need to seal it with Noble Seal 150


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

www.noblecompany.com has some good videos on their site!


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

I have been using Versabond, and Ardex FB-9L under, and over Ditra with great results. I don't need no steenkin' warranty. 

As an alternative to Ditra, I like Custom's Easy Mat.


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

Todd , if in not mistaken did you use latilevel 86 and noble for a small bathroom installation ? that is a solution. and im going to take that from you to use in my next project where height might be an issue.. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Blue, 
I spoke with John Whipple on the phone today(up there in Vancouver, :laughing: ) going over install process on the Noble Flex Flashing w/ clamp drain in use with the Hydroban mortar bed system...
He said that he's been setting Noble TS with either Laticrete 253 Gold or 255 Multimax for the extended pot life and stressed that the Noble products have been bulletproof with this prep:thumbsup:

Ive used the 253 and the 254 with it and liked the gold much better... you gotta work quick with the Platinum.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Floormasta78 said:


> Todd , if in not mistaken did you use latilevel 86 and noble for a small bathroom installation ? that is a solution. and im going to take that from you to use in my next project where height might be an issue.. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


yeah, I had to use 4 bags of 86, then i set the DalSeal with 254 and set tile with 254... that stuff is hard to set with, I like the Multimax much better but I got another bag of platinum to use up


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

what is the approx. price on 255 multimax?


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

$30 bux... in that range


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but it's that an assload of cash for thinset? I get Ultraflex II for under $15.


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

is that non-sag though? If not what would mapei's non sag cost per bag?


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

I'm not on employee pricing like some people... :whistling:


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

I'm fine with the rapid 253G for floors to set it with... that's a bit cheaper.
For in a shower, especially steam shower, is I think where Jdub was liking the MultiMax more...


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

hahaha ! TODD, I use 253 also , alot of it. i really dont htink about the price of thinset, i guess when you are used to the end result and the way a certain material works. money is not a problem. :whistling


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Its always hard decisions because there is a lot of great products out there... aside from Laticrete products, I do like the urethane grouts. Durabond D-40 is a nice medium bed thinset and I did a kerdi shower with the kerabond thinset. Within the last month, laticrete has become the most available aside from Custom products... if a job calls for QL2, its a week away and I get a killer price on it. Other than that, I do like Laticretes various selection on products for all the different situations that you run into. Its a shame that Dal dropped the Mapei line of products here...


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

Floormasta78 said:


> hahaha ! TODD, I use 253 also , alot of it. i really dont htink about the price of thinset, i guess when you are used to the end result and the way a certain material works. money is not a problem. :whistling


If the price of a thin set is not a problem ,go ahead and order Laticrete 125 (25 lbs bag) for $95 each...:laughing:
I was shocked with that price when I quoted!


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

bluebird5 said:


> ...You loose the "uncoupling" that the ditra offers...


Is uncoupling even a word? :whistling Here is a word - "Salesmen"

un·cou·ple
verb /ˌənˈkəpəl/ 
uncoupled, past participle; uncoupled, past tense; uncouples, 3rd person singular present; uncoupling, present participle

Disconnect (something, esp. a railroad vehicle that has been coupled to another)

Become disconnected
- the groups of cells commonly uncouple from surrounding tissue
- I have seen marriages uncouple under the strain

Release (hunting dogs) from being fastened together in couples


If I recall correctly there is no way to measure this and head to head Nobel TS outperforms Ditra in proper testing procedures.

Also Non-Modified thin sets can not take the movement and suffer from mortar fatigue unless you work with an S1 or S2 thin set. Which are modified. Which means you can't use Ditra. Which means Nobel TS is the better option.

Over cement.

Over wood.

Better. Better. Better.

Call Eric and get a second opinion on what "uncoupling" really means and ask him how they rate side by side with Ditra.

Call Mapei and ask them how much movement an S2 thinset can handle over regular plane Jane non-modified.

Here is a good stat I picked up at Yesterday's Mapei training.
.
.


*Some good reading material on these new ISO 13007 standards*

.
.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

astor said:


> If the price of a thin set is not a problem ,go ahead and order Laticrete 125 (25 lbs bag) for $95 each...:laughing:


Usually, whatever products are needed, the cost gets transferred to the customer, no? They always forget the price of the meat after its tasted!!!


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

Astor , you called down the thunder , well you got it ! you tell them Orlando is coming and 125 is coming with me !!! 

hahaha !:laughing::laughing:

i have found a use for it and I like for for repairs only.


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

John you are putting noble ts on all floors now? Have you tried the Noble CIS (crack isolation sheet)? The reason I started this thread is because I do not like the non modified thinset. What I do like is the ease of ditra installation.


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## ee3 (Feb 10, 2006)

one question to ask yourself , is what is it you want the membrane to do?? Is there test data to support it? does it meet a ANSI Standard?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I just read thru this thread again and there's something I don't understand. How can someone complain that NobleSeal is *$.50* more per sq ft but think $30 bags of thinset isn't pricey :blink:

I'll stick with my Ultraflex II and for the $15 savings, I can get 30 extra sq/ft of NobleSeal at the same price as Ditra. :laughing:


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

I think the math works out better with Noble or especially DalSeal, even with $30 bags of thinset and you have more options of thinsets as well. The bottom line is what the client wants to pay...


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

orlando, how long did it take you to lay that kitchen?


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

One day Blue , grout next day..


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Floormasta78 said:


> what do you kids think about this stuff ? around the web and other forums its being labeled " KNOCK OFF " .. ill start a thread here and lets see what happens?


Orlando have you tried this new Custom Building Products SKU.

The warranty on it is 7-10 years. Ditra is 5.

The nice thing about this Spider Web is the fact that the warranty actually goes from 7 to 10 years with premium modified thinsets where Ditra goes from 5 to 0 when the same thing happens.

Thermal expansion and Freeze thaw concerns make you wonder about using non-modified thin set in these exterior jobs???


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

hey !! there is that BIG wrench again! ..no John , i called customes to see tif they would send me a piece to sample. No chance ! so i guess i will never try it.


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

Floormasta78 said:


> One day Blue , grout next day..


holy crap man you tore out the old floor, kasid the ditra and tile in 1 day? do you have other guys working with you?


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

Floormasta78 said:


> hey !! there is that BIG wrench again! ..no John , i called customes to see tif they would send me a piece to sample. No chance ! so i guess i will never try it.


Customer service from Custom Building Products *SUCKS*!!!!! 

But they do make some pretty good products.  

Whipple likes to rail against Schluter for some reason. Ask him about all of those Ditra failures.  :whistling :laughing:


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

:laughing::laughing::laughing:hahahhaha ! ... Ditra failures ? 
Blue , just me and one guy. the linoleum was REALLY old. I was lucky , really lucky . most linos are stuck down .. like i said it was a square installation..


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

HS345 said:


> ...Whipple likes to rail against Schluter for some reason. Ask him about all of those Ditra failures.  :whistling :laughing:


Don't ask me. Phone Darryl from Mapei. He went up to Whistler to look at the failing job site. He took pictures.

Darryl is the head tech for Mapei here in Vancouver.

Darryl has another buddy in construction that shared another group of shower failures. We didn't get names or pictures. Just the back story.
I was with my employee David when I was told. If you like I can send you his phone number if you would like to confirm this.

I would not make this stuff up. This is what I was told. By Darryl. At Mapei.

JW


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

*Some Durval Uncoupling Membrane in Vancouver*

This will be our third project with Durval. I really like the mesh addition to the top of this product.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

HS345 said:


> Whipple likes to rail against Schluter for some reason. Ask him about all of those Ditra failures.  :whistling :laughing:


I'm glad I'm not the only one...

John..why do you keep attempting to turn the knife in Schluter's back at EVERY possible opportunity? I'm pretty sure we get it - you don't like 'em, you think there are superior products on the market, you think their customer service sucks. Great. Glad you care to share your opinions. Can we ****in move on though?

You're like the annoying kid in science class. At first you have our attention and what you say is neat. After repeating it ten thousand times it gets old and aggravating. 

You don't like their products and or business practices? Take your money elsewhere - nobody's holding an orange gun to your head ffs. Stop being a jilted lover and find a new one to shag... I mean all the energy you spend surely has a more constructive use elsewhere.

I've personally been using their products for several years and have had nothing but great experiences and not a single solitary failure to date. Do I think there are other products out there that will do the same thing, maybe even better? Yep - sure do. Does that mean I'm gonna abandon everything I'm comfortable with and jump on every new product's bandwagon every time they roll through the forums - nope.

With as often as you change products and try out new stuff I wonder how in the hell you ever reach top efficiency and comfort level with each one :whistling

Just sayin...


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

PrecisionFloors said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one...
> 
> John..why do you keep attempting to turn the knife in Schluter's back at EVERY possible opportunity? I'm pretty sure we get it - you don't like 'em, you think there are superior products on the market, you think their customer service sucks. Great. Glad you care to share your opinions. Can we ****in move on though?
> 
> ...


John does get a little bit out there with his comments about Schluter products but keep in mind that he is FULL time in shower prep, waterproofing and drain installations. A lot of the linear drains are working better with other products such as Noble, etc... he tries to stay on the cutting edge of many different products which I can respect.
Personally, I don't mind kerdi, but not a fan of Ditra mat although we have many products out there that are available and I appreciate the reviews on all wether its from John or anyone else...


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Tech Dawg said:


> John does get a little bit out there with his comments about Schluter products but keep in mind that he is FULL time in shower prep, waterproofing and drain installations. A lot of the linear drains are working better with other products such as Noble, etc... he tries to stay on the cutting edge of many different products which I can respect.
> Personally, I don't mind kerdi, but not a fan of Ditra mat although we have many products out there that are available and I appreciate the reviews on all wether its from John or anyone else...


I agree 100% John has a ton of valuable info to add to these forums. In no way was I trying to insinuate he doesn't or his opinion shouldn't be respected - quite the contrary. I'm just a little tired of the digs at Schluter for, what I can see, no reason other than that - a dig. It's kinda juvenile at this point imo.


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