# Tape joint problem



## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

What little I do, I do not v the butt joints. That being said, I will trim any roughness at the joint if my blade happens to get a little dull and curls the paper up at the edge.


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## onthelevel (Apr 6, 2011)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Okay....first off!
> Like I've always said, mesh tape is crap!! Paper all the way!
> 2nd! I have never ever v grooved my butt joints!! And they all turn out great! I have never been called back to fix a butt joint!
> V grooving butt joints....pfft...
> ...


I agree 100 percent.
However the problem in the picture looks like mud was put on when it was too cold.
Remember temperature is huge with mud/drywall/ many things. The mud expands in size when the heat goes up. That's why it's always supposed to be about 70 degrees. 
One guy I knew would mud when it was 40 degress all the time. When heat goes up, well that's what you have now. 
Also if it's your house take the mesh tape and easy sand b.s. and throw it away. Paper tape. Brown bag durabond.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

mikeflyer said:


> It's a insurance job. The piece on left is a tapered panel.the piece on right was part of the existing which was cut in the middle of a panel so no taper. The joists are going left to right. Same situation at the butt joint though, which is behind the photo.


I was taught to allways hang a factory edge to factory edge and cut edge to cut edge. When it is hung the way the OP said, Factory edge to cut edge there is a big difference in thickness of the drywall and will make it really difficult to finish.


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## Terrorron (Nov 7, 2008)

summithomeinc said:


> I was taught to allways hang a factory edge to factory edge and cut edge to cut edge. When it is hung the way the OP said, Factory edge to cut edge there is a big difference in thickness of the drywall and will make it really difficult to finish.


Yep...we call it a "bastard" joint around here. Pre-fill the taper and treat it ilke a butt from that point forward. It's unavoidable...some of the time :whistling (unless you want to "burn" good material when you're scrapping out the little crap like jamb legs etc).


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## JMC1981 (Aug 27, 2011)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Okay....first off!
> Like I've always said, mesh tape is crap!! Paper all the way!
> 2nd! I have never ever v grooved my butt joints!! And they all turn out great! I have never been called back to fix a butt joint!
> V grooving butt joints....pfft...
> ...



Your company is a couple years old. My company is 25 years old consistently hanging and taping hundreds of sheets a week. That isn't meant to be disrespectful. But the truth is, if you don't prepare your butt joints properly you will sooner or later have trouble with them. You can either take the risk of not preparing them properly and potentially having to go back and fix them or you can do it right the first time and take the precautions in doing the job your customers expect you to do. Once again, this isn't just about putting forward a butt joint that's going to put the paycheck in your hand. This about putting forward a product that is going to last years into the future. My company guarantees our work. That means it has to be right when I walk off the job. It also means it has to be right ten years down the road. If not, I am going back and fixing it. 

As for mesh tape being crap: sounds like you aren't knowledged enough about the product. Mesh tape is a very good product if used properly.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

JMC1981 said:


> Your company is a couple years old. My company is 25 years old consistently hanging and taping hundreds of sheets a week. That isn't meant to be disrespectful. But the truth is, if you don't prepare your butt joints properly you will sooner or later have trouble with them. You can either take the risk of not preparing them properly and potentially having to go back and fix them or you can do it right the first time and take the precautions in doing the job your customers expect you to do. Once again, this isn't just about putting forward a butt joint that's going to put the paycheck in your hand. This about putting forward a product that is going to last years into the future. My company guarantees our work. That means it has to be right when I walk off the job. It also means it has to be right ten years down the road. If not, I am going back and fixing it.
> 
> As for mesh tape being crap: sounds like you aren't knowledged enough about the product. Mesh tape is a very good product if used properly.


I agree 100%. Good finishers will ''prep'' and pre-fill prior to applying tape. 
''Prep''-- meaning cutting out and removing all loose paper and rock. With finishing knife not razor knife.
I don't think JMC means going through an entire house and v out all joints.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

JMC1981 said:


> . My company guarantees our work. That means it has to be right when I walk off the job. It also means it has to be right ten years down the road. If not, I am going back and fixing it.


JMC, That's quite a warranty you offer. :thumbup:


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

I surprised to hear that more people do *not* v their butt joints. 

I'm not saying I do it to all butt joints. But I do it more than others I have seen.

I am at a loss for words when tapers come on the job and just start taping. I have never kept track but I do take a fair amount of time for prep. (pre-fill, making sure all nails/screws are set, *V NOTCHING BUTT JOINTS* etc)


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

Alright alright alright, seems like I started a little controversy.



JMC1981 said:


> Your company is a couple years old. My company is 25 years old consistently hanging and taping hundreds of sheets a week. That isn't meant to be disrespectful. But the truth is, if you don't prepare your butt joints properly you will sooner or later have trouble with them. You can either take the risk of not preparing them properly and potentially having to go back and fix them or you can do it right the first time and take the precautions in doing the job your customers expect you to do. Once again, this isn't just about putting forward a butt joint that's going to put the paycheck in your hand. This about putting forward a product that is going to last years into the future. My company guarantees our work. That means it has to be right when I walk off the job. It also means it has to be right ten years down the road. If not, I am going back and fixing it.
> 
> As for mesh tape being crap: sounds like you aren't knowledged enough about the product. Mesh tape is a very good product if used properly.


Yes, my company is only a few years old. That being said, I have more to loose from doing shotty work than someone who's had a company for 25 years. 
Because unlike you, I will be doing this for *another* 25 years. So if you think I am just going to "put forward a product" thats going to put a paycheck in my hand, think again!!
My company has a solid reputation where im from.
You think you're the only guy who warranties his work!?
All our work has "to be right when we walk off the job".
Only difference is my work is perfect! Not just "right".

And as for me not being knowledgeable, *yes, mesh tape is a very good product if used properly. *
*Too bad 90% of people don't know how to use it!*
You know how many houses i've had to fix because some other stupid taper didnt know how to use it!?
Or how many private jobs and home owners called me to fix their job they tried to do with fiber tape!?
Allot. Its really too bad...
It can be a very good product, unfortunately there isnt enough consumer awareness for people to use it properly.
http://www.all-wall.com/Categories/FibaTape/Thin-Drywall-Mesh-Tape.html
See anything about using a setting compound in the description!? nope...
So I just tell people all around not to use it!!
Because, even just like the subject of this thread!, this guy used mesh tape and what!? Regular mud. No setting compound! How would he have known? Thats why I tell everyone not to use it.
Now most likely it wasnt the mesh that caused his immediate problem seen in the picture, it might have been a temperature problem or something else, but it was still done wrong to start with.

So thats my take on FiberTape.
Congrats to all of us who know how to use it!



Big Shoe said:


> I agree 100%. Good finishers will ''prep'' and pre-fill prior to applying tape.
> ''Prep''-- meaning cutting out and removing all loose paper and rock. With finishing knife not razor knife.
> I don't think JMC means going through an entire house and v out all joints.


Also, I never said I dont prepare my butt joints properly prior to taping them. I will take the time to screw them off properly if they're not, I will pre-fill them if needed, I will remove loose paper and rock.
But v-grooving them all? Seems excessive. If it needs it, then sure, but I wont go around cutting them all open.


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## JMC1981 (Aug 27, 2011)

First things first, you don't have anything more to lose by a shoddy tape job than anyone else who is working in the profession that is drywall. All of our objectives in this profession should be simple: putting forward a good product that's going to last. If not, we are going to get complaints, we are going to lose customers, and we are going to lose money. You don't know me or my financial situation. I do not know you or your financial situation. So, lets do each other a favor and skip the whole, "I have more to loose from doing shotty work than someone who's had a company for 25 years." 

Second, here's your original quote in regard to mesh tape, "Like I've always said, mesh tape is crap!! Paper all the way!" That's an incorrect statement. Mesh tape is a good product if used properly. Don't discount a product because some tapers don't know how to properly apply it. It would be like me trying to do your textured ceiling system, using the wrong hopper, and in the end saying your system sucks. It doesn't work that way. 

Third, it seems you're now changing your tune on preparation of butt joints after a few others have chimed in. I never said every single butt joint needs to be V-notched. However, if you're doing a full 120-130 sheet house, you're going to come across many butt joints that need to be prepped properly. Maybe it's your inexperience but that's a far cry from, "I have never ever v grooved my butt joints!! And they all turn out great! I have never been called back to fix a butt joint!" I promise you, with time in this profession, you will sooner or later run across a troubled butt joint because you didn't take the time to prep it properly. It sounds like you're more worried about how much time it would take to properly do your butt joints than you are about doing them right. Once again, this isn't just about how the jobs going to look when the pay check is passed over, this is just as much about the way the job looks 5-10 years down the road.


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

JMC1981 said:


> First things first, you don't have anything more to lose by a shoddy tape job than anyone else who is working in the profession that is drywall. All of our objectives in this profession should be simple: putting forward a good product that's going to last. If not, we are going to get complaints, we are going to lose customers, and we are going to lose money. You don't know me or my financial situation. I do not know you or your financial situation. So, lets do each other a favor and skip the whole, "I have more to loose from doing shotty work than someone who's had a company for 25 years."
> 
> Second, here's your original quote in regard to mesh tape, "Like I've always said, mesh tape is crap!! Paper all the way!" That's an incorrect statement. Mesh tape is a good product if used properly. Don't discount a product because some tapers don't know how to properly apply it. It would be like me trying to do your textured ceiling system, using the wrong hopper, and in the end saying your system sucks. It doesn't work that way.
> 
> Third, it seems you're now changing your tune on preparation of butt joints after a few others have chimed in. I never said every single butt joint needs to be V-notched. However, if you're doing a full 120-130 sheet house, you're going to come across many butt joints that need to be prepped properly. Maybe it's your inexperience but that's a far cry from, "I have never ever v grooved my butt joints!! And they all turn out great! I have never been called back to fix a butt joint!" I promise you, with time in this profession, you will sooner or later run across a troubled butt joint because you didn't take the time to prep it properly. It sounds like you're more worried about how much time it would take to properly do your butt joints than you are about doing them right. Once again, this isn't just about how the jobs going to look when the pay check is passed over, this is just as much about the way the job looks 5-10 years down the road.


Okay, I agree with all that. 
But keep in mind also that I never said I dont prep my butt joints, just dont v-groove them.
I just find theres a difference between prepping a butt joint if it needs it and v-grooving it.
Prepping them to me, doesnt mean v-grooving. 
I will scrape loose paper away, prefill cracks or holes, make sure there are sufficent screws.
I still stand by when I said I have never done that before in my life. Neither have any of the other companys I worked for previously. I actually have never seen a taper around these parts v-groove a butt joint.
Also, im not changing my tune now that more people are chimming in, you'll notice several people also mentioned they dont v-groove and that they agree with my original statement. Im just clarifying what prepping a butt joint means to me.
And I've never had a problem with any butt joint in the past.
And yes, maybe you're right, maybe its my inexperience but like I said, I have never done that and I have never had a problem before. And sure, maybe its only been 5 years, but im sure my butt joints are still going strong and will make it another 5 no problem.

Sorry for the dick measuring contest.
Wasnt trying to start a war. Just stating what works for me.


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## onthelevel (Apr 6, 2011)

*Mesh vs. Paper*

Precision speaks the truth.
I guess it's mesh vs. paper debate again. 

My point is paper is DEFINITELY stronger. Use the right mud and you pretty much have plaster. 
That easy sand Junk I can sand with my fingers. Not brown bag durabond.:no: That hurt I tried it.

Mesh does not adhere as well as paper does to the drywall. Movement then equals cracks. 
Try the test. Equal size pieces mesh and easy sand (junk). vs. Brown bag durabond and paper tape. 
You'll quit beating that mesh drum.
Mesh is good for production. Period. 
Also, Mother in laws houses.


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## onthelevel (Apr 6, 2011)

Location is a lot too. Precision is right by me in Ontario. Temperature and humidity is a SOB here. It can be -5 in the winter with no humidity.
Then in the summer it can be 105 with 90 percent humidity.
That is a lot of movement and some people don't want any cracks for 30 years.


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

onthelevel said:


> Location is a lot too. Precision is right by me in Ontario. Temperature and humidity is a SOB here. It can be -5 in the winter with no humidity.
> Then in the summer it can be 105 with 90 percent humidity.
> That is a lot of movement and some people don't want any cracks for 30 years.


Temperature is an SOB. Thank goodness for construction heaters, fans and dehumidifiers. 
Btw, Michigan isnt too far away, hit me up if you need some work done bro!


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## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

From what I can see it looks like it might be some movement in the rock ( lack of screws)


Pre filling all large gaps before doing first coat is important!


Pushing the paper tape slightly into the mud, lets the tape become wet, I do 3 or 4 but joints at a time to give it a chance to bond.

Around here we call it Joe bubble!!


I'm surprised you did not see problem when doing 2nd coat.


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

Snobnd said:


> From what I can see it looks like it might be some movement in the rock ( lack of screws)
> 
> 
> Pre filling all large gaps before doing first coat is important!
> ...


I was also surprised the problem wasn't caught or seen until later.


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## mikeflyer (Mar 8, 2010)

*Thanks to all the pro's!*

Thanks to all the pros! I posted on Friday night and before I went to bed, I knew what had happened and how to fix it. I had a gap that should have been pre filled, but being a newbie drywaller at 56 years old [formally home builder/general contractor] I thought the mesh tape was way faster. It cost me many hours and a lot of stress. I will never use mesh tape again!


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## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

mikeflyer said:


> Thanks to all the pros! I posted on Friday night and before I went to bed, I knew what had happened and how to fix it. I had a gap that should have been pre filled, but being a newbie drywaller at 56 years old [formally home builder/general contractor] I thought the mesh tape was way faster. It cost me many hours and a lot of stress. *I will never use mesh tape again*!


:clap::clap:

Our work is done here guys.....we converted another one :thumbsup:

Good luck on the next job


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Tnt is next. A solid pm campaign and the loss of his $1000 should do the trick.. :laughing:


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

Snobnd said:


> :clap::clap:
> 
> Our work is done here guys.....we converted another one :thumbsup:
> 
> Good luck on the next job


Haha! Woot! 
Converting people to paper all over the world!
Im so persistant when it comes to preaching about paper tape....
I feel like a Jehovah's Witness! :laughing:


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## onthelevel (Apr 6, 2011)

*Victory*

Victory! 
We certainly did a good deed. Spread the word. WE have a CONVRESION!. 
I have a little personal vendetta against mesh for the same reasons. I tried it. It's pure garbage. 
Just like it's buddy (easy sand durabond). Throw both in garbage. They are for the lowest bidders!
Maybe if some homeoweners read this they will realize mesh is junk too!:clap::clap::clap: 

Take that last roll of mesh and burn it to hell brother.


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## onthelevel (Apr 6, 2011)

Mesh is for areas where people don't pay to have work done.

It's just get ur done! Cheap!:thumbsup:

So when it cracks years later. They don't even notice. By then they lost your card anyway. 

Then they use the next handyman. :thumbsup:

There wil be more conversions!


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Mesh tape and setting type compound seem to work fine the times we've used them. Of course the framing is nice and firm, no wiggling.


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

Rio said:


> Mesh tape and setting type compound seem to work fine the times we've used them. Of course the framing is nice and firm, no wiggling.


As long as you use a setting compound! But even then I just dont find it as long lasting as paper tape.
And I certainly dont find it faster if I have to mix a setting compound every hour. And then I cant run setting compound through my boxes, so im stuck coating by hand. Balls to that!!


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## J M J (Feb 2, 2012)

I had that happen to me once found out later somone didnt screw that seam off


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## JMC1981 (Aug 27, 2011)

onthelevel said:


> Mesh is for areas where people don't pay to have work done.
> 
> It's just get ur done! Cheap!:thumbsup:
> 
> ...



Out of curiosity, how long ago did you suffer your head injury?


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## 2buckcanuck (Jul 7, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Okay, I agree with all that.
> But keep in mind also that I never said I dont prep my butt joints, just dont v-groove them.
> I just find theres a difference between prepping a butt joint if it needs it and v-grooving it.
> Prepping them to me, doesnt mean v-grooving.
> ...


PT, I will half to take JMC's side on this debate, you keep saying where you live,,,,, like ?????? .... when did Sudbury get the Internet:whistling

Sounds like your doing the rock and the taping. So next time, when you drywall, examine the end of the sheet of rock. You will notice it does this ^^^^^^^^^^ from how they cut it at the factory. That's the loose paper. You may not even notice it, b/c most times (not all) it won't be detected till it's painted. It's the same error as having a dry spot under your paper taper. since paper won't stick to paper

Now if you put a factory to factory ends together that are not cut, You must "V" them out. Put 2 ends together that are cut, you will not half to "V" them out. One cut, one not, then you should carve the one that is not. Most (good) DWC's that sub out their work, will just order the rockers to "V" out all the butts, That way, there's no arguments about which ones need to be or not. So if your doing your own rock, it's called "have brain , use it

As for this thread, Sir Mixalot and JMC both had the right answers, and began too hassle each other,,,,,, funny:laughing:


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

2buckcanuck said:


> As for this thread, Sir Mixalot and JMC both had the right answers, and began too hassle each other,,,,,, funny:laughing:


:laughing:....Too much testosterone? :whistling


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

2buckcanuck said:


> PT, I will half to take JMC's side on this debate, you keep saying where you live,,,,, like ?????? .... when did Sudbury get the Internet:whistling
> 
> Sounds like your doing the rock and the taping. So next time, when you drywall, examine the end of the sheet of rock. You will notice it does this ^^^^^^^^^^ from how they cut it at the factory. That's the loose paper. You may not even notice it, b/c most times (not all) it won't be detected till it's painted. It's the same error as having a dry spot under your paper taper. since paper won't stick to paper
> 
> ...


Hmmmm....very interesting comment 2Buck.
I have never heard of that. That if you have 2 factory butt joints you have to V them out!? Seems odd to me...


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Oh 2buck your soooooooooo wonderful... 

:laughing:


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Oh 2buck your soooooooooo wonderful...
> 
> :laughing:


Does that make sense to you Ohio!?
V-grooving all your factory butt joints!?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Does that make sense to you Ohio!?
> V-grooving all your factory butt joints!?


I personally dont do it, but I can see how it makes sense..

Do you do it?


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I personally dont do it, but I can see how it makes sense..
> 
> Do you do it?


No, I never have!
I've never even seen other companies around these parts do it...
Which is weird...because me and 2Buck dont live that far away from each other. Were 7hrs away from each other.
I would have maybe guessed the opposite...like if they were 2 ends that had been cut then v them out...
But factory cut butt joints!? That seems weird...


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> No, I never have!
> I've never even seen other companies around these parts do it...
> Which is weird...because me and 2Buck dont live that far away from each other. Were 7hrs away from each other.
> I would have maybe guessed the opposite...like if they were 2 ends that had been cut then v them out...
> But factory cut butt joints!? That seems weird...


I get it. Its because of paper delamination on the ends. I have just never personally had an issue with not doing it. I have also been on many a commercial project and never seen it done.


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

ya me neither..never had any problems! 
weird...


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I have had to v some tapers though because after I key screw them together they are just too tight.. :whistling:


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

Didn't understand what you meant with that last comment


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> Didn't understand what you meant with that last comment


I hang my boards so tight its too tight sometimes.. :laughing:


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

oh! Haha, gotcha.
Ah....crap...look who's online now


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

PrecisionTaping said:


> oh! Haha, gotcha.
> Ah....crap...look who's online now


Who?


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## PrecisionTaping (Jan 8, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Who?


Haha! I just 2Buck leave a message for me on another thread.
Surprised he hasn't signed in here to shake things up a bit.

He gave me crap on the other thread though. lol.


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