# Will you separate material cost and labor cost if asked by your customer?



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Don't do it. A detailed quote, showing labor and materials, is a valuable document. It's the rough draft of a project plan


Very wise man, you is, like a wise, veteran contractor/businessman.

I moved and when in a new area, I put out a lot of feelers to see what the local market was like. I got one guy that bit on the "free estimates" thing. I visited his house and walked through with him all the work he needed to have done. About a minute into it, I realized what was going on. He was a rather studious and meticulous customer, making sure he bought all the right material in the right amounts. Man, don't we as professionals appreciate an informed and attentive customer?

Never got that obamajob.  Yeah, it was pure fiction. On the bright side, with his detailed material list, his job will oba--I mean--fail. He won't be able to do the processes needed but he will save 'big money!' :laughing: OK, he might be able to slap/vomit up something.... but while it probably will look like fecal matter, it WILL fail.

Oh...sorry, got distracted for a moment. What I left out for his line item materials list--I'd provide *FREE! Yes at NO COST to him!!!*--was what would make the whole thing work.

Yeah, those were leftovers (free to him) that would make that job work were from the last job or second to the last, or buddha only knows how many jobs ago.

I dunno. Mebbe I should keep track of every nail and screw, every inch of material, weigh every bucket/pail, etc. Nah, someone else will just show up on that (or many other) homes and after the owner fully badmouths the "previous contractor" that "cheated him" and "did such shoddy work".

Cut him/her/it a break due to their misfortune and they will work with you too! :laughing:

Yes, this is why I rarely do residential as it's too hit and miss on the owner's end, and in their defense, the residential remod market is the most screwed up market their is.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

CarpenterSFO said:


> How about "Sorry I don't break down the cost."


Man, where's your touchie feelie sensibilities?
Honesty is something that's looked down upon these days. Being honest may hurt someone's feelings...even though, for some reason, lying to a person that knows you're lying to them is acceptable. I guess it's that "social contract" that our "leaders" sometimes mention when pushed....accidentally, off record of course.

I have a saying, *"He pretended to tell the truth and they pretended to believe it."*

Love it. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings in stating that though....


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

There's some interesting views here. Up until last month I have never had to do a break down of any kind for a customer. I had this one guy call me about a deck. I already knew he had 2-3 others out there to price the deck and he asked to if I could do a break down of materials and labor. I didn't see an issue with this as he knew the majority of the material costs anyway as he spent a lot of time researching the project.

It seemed to help me out as he knew exactly what product brands were being used, the cost of these products and what was going into the build. The other guys just quoted basic pricing and did not mention what brands or products they would be using. I didn't go detailed and give him exact specs of the products like dimensions and qty but enough that he could see why my cost was so much more. I was the highest bid but the best products and design layout. Now let me say I ain't got this job yet but I would be very surprised if I didn't get it. If I don't then I won't ever break down a price ever again.


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

The time I do break it down is when it's t&m . Like for service work or emergency repair .


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

IHI said:


> Curious...where's the arguement going to stem from? Materials cost what materials cost, simple as that. You/homeowner both know what your states tax rate is...nothing to hide from there either.
> 
> Labor rate? that's not a negotiable rate since your overhead/operating costs are exactly what they are. They want cheaper, downgrade the product or remove scopes of said project. As the person if they would go to work for $10 less per hour and still the do the same exact job...when they say hell no, ask them why they expect you to lost money to work for them.
> 
> ...


I disagree, at least personally. When I get a quote for say, vehicle repairs, I dont expect a breakdown. If I think its an outrageous cost, I might do some investigation, like call a parts store. As long as the parts equal a decent amount, say 1/3 of the bill, I take into account:

Is this shop reputable? 

Do I belive they will do a great job, in a timely fashion and stand behind their work?

Also, overhead and insurance, certifications said shop carries.

I usually trade with the same people for everything, and they are not ever the cheap guy. :no:

For some large projects, we will do cost plus for clients who want a breakdown. They get a copy of every invoice.

For all others, the price buys the scope of work, our insurance, overhead, an iron clad guarantee to provide exactly what we said we would, in a professional and client service oriented manner. :thumbsup:


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

BCC, always an interesting outcome in such circumstances. My experience is that unless the person is an engineer type, they are just nickle and dimers that will never be happy--and neither will anyone that is ever involved with them in any business transaction.



skillman said:


> The time I do break it down is when it's t&m . Like for service work or emergency repair .


Stuff like this is little more than professional "consulation".
Lawyers don't make anything, but do they charge for how-to advice?
Do doctors diagnose you and give you a remedy for free also?
Can someone tell me how to fix this and give me a detailed list of what I need? Oh, and I don't have to pay you for your time, nor effort.

Crazy world out there. Next thing ya know, some smart arse will try and tell us our goobermint has been lying to us all along...... nah.......
Weird.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> There's some interesting views here. Up until last month I have never had to do a break down of any kind for a customer. I had this one guy call me about a deck. I already knew he had 2-3 others out there to price the deck and he asked to if I could do a break down of materials and labor. I didn't see an issue with this as he knew the majority of the material costs anyway as he spent a lot of time researching the project.
> 
> It seemed to help me out as he knew exactly what product brands were being used, the cost of these products and what was going into the build. The other guys just quoted basic pricing and did not mention what brands or products they would be using. I didn't go detailed and give him exact specs of the products like dimensions and qty but enough that he could see why my cost was so much more. I was the highest bid but the best products and design layout. Now let me say I ain't got this job yet but I would be very surprised if I didn't get it. If I don't then I won't ever break down a price ever again.


There is a difference between the type (make, model) of material and the cost of that material. The type of material absolutely belongs in the conversation, that along with craftsmanship are the main reasons for the higher price.

I will talk and detail material types all day, called out in the scope on the bid, absolutely.

You tell 'em it will be Ipe and why that is great but that is completely different than detailing it's cost on the contract.

Just wanted to clarify that. Informing clients about the what and why of better materials helps the situation, detailing the exact cost (as opposed to generally in the scope phase) I think not so much.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

maleko said:


> Just trying to find a nice way to say. Sorry i dont break down the cost. Without sounding like im hiding something.
> Theres alot involved in a price. Overhead. Time to and from supply yard. Figuring estimate. Insurance. Etc



I usually say something like " I can appreciate your curiosity in this regard, and if this is an issue of great importance to you then you can go pound sand up your aZZ."

All with a very courteous smile, of course, must be courteous at all times.

Andy.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> I usually say something like " I can appreciate your curiosity in this regard, and if this is an issue of great importance to you then you can go pound sand up your aZZ."
> 
> All with a very courteous smile, of course, must be courteous at all times.
> 
> Andy.


There should be a way to put multiple thank-you's on a post, maybe once a year.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

CO762 said:


> Man, where's your touchie feelie sensibilities?
> Honesty is something that's looked down upon these days. Being honest may hurt someone's feelings...even though, for some reason, lying to a person that knows you're lying to them is acceptable. I guess it's that "social contract" that our "leaders" sometimes mention when pushed....accidentally, off record of course.
> 
> I have a saying, *"He pretended to tell the truth and they pretended to believe it."*
> ...


Contracting's not so bad - I've never been punished just for being honest. The corporate world was another story.


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

DON'T DO IT!!!

all your doing is wasting your time.

the average small job 5k to 15k takes me at least 4 hrs to price out site visit etc.
usually 4hrs of time I'll never get directly paid for

people will turn around and use your time and effort to low ball you, give your break down to tommy who has a "GREAT PRICE" but doesn't know what he's doing, or bust you down because your making "way to much money" off of them

the only reasons I'd break down a price is:

repeat customer who I love

customer has signed a contract

customer is more than likely going to use you for the project, your taking a risk, but if it will seal the deal

rarely do I ever give out anything more than one number: labor and materials


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## maleko (Jun 6, 2007)

fast fred said:


> DON'T DO IT!!!
> 
> all your doing is wasting your time.
> 
> ...


Agree :thumbsup:


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

CO762 said:


> BCC, always an interesting outcome in such circumstances. My experience is that unless the person is an engineer type, they are just nickle and dimers that will never be happy--and neither will anyone that is ever involved with them in any business transaction.


My current customer and her husband fit into the engineer type. We are go for lift off because I was willing to break everything down, among other things. Her husband was a satellite engineer. Get it, Go for lift off?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

VinylHanger said:


> My current customer and her husband fit into the engineer type. We are go for lift off because I was willing to break everything down, among other things. Her husband was a satellite engineer. Get it, Go for lift off?


Your pun would have been far better if he was a rocket scientist...


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

Answer to the op's question: NO (99% of the time). 

If a need arises on occasion and I feel it necessary it would be as follows:

Fixed price contract = $2,000.00

Labor & Materials broken down =

Labor = $1750.00
Materials = $500.00
Total = $2250.00

Unrelated, I also do the same when people ask for separate prices to do jobs A, B, C & D vs all in one contract.


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## mski (Apr 4, 2013)

I've had 1 or 2 people ask for a break down and I told them I dont do that. My price is what it is.


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## gear junkie (May 20, 2013)

I don't itemize my invoice or estimates. This is my business model...not the customers. Do they go to a resturant and ask how the owner to what their costs are? Biggest reason.....allows the customer to use your estimate as a shopping list and cut you out.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

Never. Most businesses don't seperate their costs on the bill. I never asked the chef the wholesale cost of my steak they just cooked.

The only reason people want it broken down is so they can price shop and give you a headache about your price.

One solid price take it or leave it.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

gear junkie said:


> I don't itemize my invoice or estimates. This is my business model...not the customers. Do they go to a resturant and ask how the owner to what their costs are? Biggest reason.....allows the customer to use your estimate as a shopping list and cut you out.


LOL honestly I just read what you typed after what I just posted. Basically saying the same thing:thumbup:


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> I usually say something like " I can appreciate your curiosity in this regard, and if this is an issue of great importance to you then you can go pound sand up your aZZ."
> 
> All with a very courteous smile, of course, must be courteous at all times.
> 
> Andy.



:laughing::laughing: :thumbup:


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