# Do you support unions or arbitrary set pay scales?



## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

B.D.R. said:


> This topic is right up there with politics and religion.
> I have, in the past been a member of, Bridge Structural and Ornimental Iron Workers Union, and the United Steel Worker Union.
> I have seen how they operate and what they do.
> I am no longer in the union, and that suites me just fine.
> Anyone care to post the dollar amount of the dues that they pay?


As a union carpenter we pay $20 per month and about $50 a week for a 40 hours, for working dues.


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## packer_rich (Dec 27, 2009)

B.D.R. said:


> Does it matter whether you are working, or is it automatic.
> Just curious.


My quarterly dues have to be paid, working or not. The dues checkoff{ working dues} are taken from my paycheck when I work.


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## packer_rich (Dec 27, 2009)

dayexco said:


> that "might" buy you a cremation, cardboard casket...now....let's worry about your wife and kids. sounds to me like you're getting banged like a screen door in a hurricane.


the $20,000 life insurance is something I opted into a couple years ago. I is in addition to the insurance already offered by the union. I just received a mailing that shows the pension fund annual report. The fund is 86% funded and has been for years. There is also an election I can take at retirement that allows for my wife to continue to receive my pension even after i die. Several years ago we also started a fund that has the investments self directed. I can choose among 9 different funds, much like a 401k. This lets me decide whether to put that money in a safe lower paying fund, or in a more risky fund that can realize higher returns. All this is available outside the union, of course, but the large amount of money in the fund keeps the fees at a lower level.


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

hdrider_chgo said:


> I can't speak for all unions, but I can tell you that union carpenters are fired at will, for any reason, or no reason at all, including age discrimination, which is rampant in the business. There are no protections. At the end of the day, they will just tell you to pick up your tools and leave, end of story.
> 
> Both employer and carpenter knows there is a line of guys waiting for your job, because it is one of the few blue collar jobs left that allows one to live in the middle class rather than remain part of the working poor.
> 
> ...


:laughing:. When I go to bid on a job supervised by a Union GC/CM and I am required to have an agreement with the local as part of the contract, is that also part of the union companies being able to complete due to increased productivity?

You don't have to be Union to bid on Davis-Bacon work but you must pay your guys the Union wage. Your actually at a large disadvantage because you cannot pay apprentice wages to your seconds as the Union guys can.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

jhark123 said:


> :laughing:. When I go to bid on a job supervised by a Union GC/CM and I am required to have an agreement with the local as part of the contract, is that also part of the union companies being able to complete due to increased productivity?
> 
> You don't have to be Union to bid on Davis-Bacon work but you must pay your guys the Union wage. Your actually at a large disadvantage because you cannot pay apprentice wages to your seconds as the Union guys can.


I remember back in the 80's the old boy did jobs that paid union scale. Everyone got the same journyman wage weather they new or been with his co. for many years. So if you sucked at being a carpenter or was great at the job , everybody got paid the same.


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## hdrider_chgo (Feb 23, 2009)

jhark123 said:


> :laughing:. When I go to bid on a job supervised by a Union GC/CM and I am required to have an agreement with the local as part of the contract, is that also part of the union companies being able to complete due to increased productivity?


Different concept. Yes, union contractors can only hire union subs. However union contractors compete all the time with non-union contractors for private sector (non- Davis-Bacon) work, and often win. And non-union contractors can and do hire union subs. They do that because in some cases they can't find non-union subs with the skill and productivity they need.



jhark123 said:


> You don't have to be Union to bid on Davis-Bacon work but you must pay your guys the Union wage. Your actually at a large disadvantage because you cannot pay apprentice wages to your seconds as the Union guys can.


Well if it's a disadvantage to be non-union, you can always go union if you want to.

The union contract spells out Journeyman to apprentice ratios. It's something like 4 to 1. Apprentices have less experience and in theory lower productivity and need more supervision. Many union shops avoid hiring apprentices at all for that reason. And you can't arbitrarily pay a Journeyman apprentices' wages. 4th year apprentice wages are around 85% of journeyman, and the benefits are the same.


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## hdrider_chgo (Feb 23, 2009)

Gary H said:


> I remember back in the 80's the old boy did jobs that paid union scale. Everyone got the same journyman wage weather they new or been with his co. for many years. So if you sucked at being a carpenter or was great at the job , everybody got paid the same.


Union contractors just fire the guys that aren't productive enough to justify union scale. Problem solved.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

wookie said:


> IBEW


Used to think they were one of the last ones I could support until they backed illegals....and now some openly veer to the very very far left wing, on their websites promoting "progressive talk" radio.
One example: http://www.ibewlocal388.org/



> ALL goverment employees should not be allowed to be union.


FDR's wagner act allowed for unionizing of private sector employees in this nation. But at the very same time, he prohibited government employees from having that power due to they have, by definition, a monopoly position and also vote in their own bosses.


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## detroit687 (Sep 4, 2008)

And your apprentices go to school for 8 hours every other week payed.
And i bid against non union non prevailing wage jobs and my general foreman makes over scale and has for many years. From 18 to 25 i got a thousand dollar christmas bonus every year. My first boss was a union carpenter himself before he started his own shop just like me.
Im not trying to get rich off one job i would be happy to get through as many years as i can and pay myself and my guys a decent wage with something to retire on. A single guys take home for 40hrs is $840 the health ins isnt that great . its about $150 a week in gas. And the only tools i supply is a cord and screw gun.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm not really interested in getting involved with what is, for all practical purposes, another political debate, but I will say two things.

First, the idea of what a union does for employees, and the trade in general, is a different discussion than the necessity of having one right now, or the feasabilty of belonging to one. If that makes any sense at all. :blink:

Secondly, unions are composed of thousands of people, from all walks of life, different opinions, and different geographical areas. Discussing whether they are "good", or "bad" is largely futile. They can be as good or bad as the people involved in them. There are quality tradespeople both in and out of the union, although the union training programs are top-notch.




jhark123 said:


> Most of the Union guys I've met don't understand that without DIRECT, ACTIVE Government protection, they would be out on their a$$ in an instant. They think that because they are pulling down $35 and hour in a corrupt extortion scheme that they are a carpenter than a non-union man.


I am perhaps a bit biased, as both my father and grandfather were union men, and I was in the IBEW. But I studied the history of labor in this country, and it's not a glorious past. If you want to call it a "corrupt extortion scheme", while you, even as a non-union tradesman, enjoy the protections provided primarily by the unions, go right ahead. But you might want to go read some of the histories about this country's early days, where they exploited men, women, and children, killed them by the droves, enslaved foreigners, hired private armies to ride through mining camps and kill everyone they found, because they were on strike, and required them to work in the most appallingly dangerous situations, and then you might have a slightly different opinion on the matter.

Whether they are still required now, because there are now government regulations in place providing protections, is a debatable topic.


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## sancho (Apr 3, 2010)

hdrider_chgo said:


> I have to disagree. The safety violations I see in union work are rampant, and in non-union work, it's 10 times worse. Most non-union guys have no clue about OSHA regulations, and have no training at all in safety practices. The carpenters union in Chicago has a full-time safety director and assistants who do nothing but try to get union contractors to comply with basic safety practices to keep their members safe. There are usually a few union members here killed per year, due to contractors ignoring government safety regulations. The government does little in the way of enforcement. Most contractors have never seen OSHA on a job site. Usually they show up only after someone is killed or seriously injured.
> 
> The other thing the union does is try to make sure employees are paid. Bouncing paychecks are rampant in the business. When a contractor chooses to become a union employer, they must put up a wage and benefit bond to ensure their guys will get paid, but even that does not always work.
> 
> ...


I was was not discussing the modern unions. I was discussing the work conditions that let to the forming of Labor Unions.

The 40 hour work week, sick and vacation time, the child labor laws, even workers com did not exist until the Unions fought for them.

What you decribed is what I was talking about with the dues going to the Unions special interest, politicians etc. I totally agree with you about the abuses ocurring today. However, I dont believe that the employers paying cash to the employee, no S/s being paid etc, happened on a Union job.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

hdrider_chgo said:


> But I can tell you in this area, many union shops compete in the private sector against non-union shops very effectively because of their increased productivity and ready access to trained, skilled labor.


Of course, because union market artificially affects the market value. 

Something that is popular and worth $200 now. The manufacturer decides to raise the price to $800. Now used widget in your hand is worth more than $200 but, less than $800. If it's a new old stock, they can get away with selling for a tad below $800 and still compete.

Often time, manufaturers impose "minimum advertised price policy" to vertically fix prices arbitrarily to protect the devaluation of product through price collapse. The difference between this and union is that it only affects the advertised price. They can't legally control what they'll actually get sold for through negotiation. 

As long as unions artificially keep the wages high it instills higher expectations of wages among laborers. 

If there was a regulatory body that sets a wage floor for burger flippers to not less than $25/hour, of course theses flippers are not going to object. "flipping burgers, $25/hour, good hours, benefits, we thank union for milking the corporate cow for us" is what they'll say.

Suppliers of lumber aren't going to complain either if a regulator did something that would artificially raise the general price of lumber to increase profitability.

Unions are doing what many people accuse the oil industry of doing, except that they're price fixing labor cost. 

Some union members don't take kindly to objectors and objectors (who couldn't care less about things like strike, etc) and the disagreeing party is sometimes subject to assault, murder or death threats.

The more unions do things to raise the labor cost, the more companies have to put their effort in reducing the hours of man hour. Think of it like maximizing utilization factor on very expensive rental equipment. 

If you could utilize someone who is only half as efficient, but costs only a third as much, it could make business sense, but unions prevent that from happening.

They also vehemently oppose cross-training and performing of non-designated task in order to artificially create demand for union workers assigned to that task.

In general, unions are highly harmful to business operations. In a way, its like a work place infection that they can not legally remove. 

When one Wal-Mart store in Canada was almost unionized, it caused Wal-Mart to have to close that store, because the law prevents them from union busting. The law prevented them from prohibiting formation of union.


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## hdrider_chgo (Feb 23, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> The more unions do things to raise the labor cost, the more companies have to put their effort in reducing the hours of man hour. Think of it like maximizing utilization factor on very expensive rental equipment.


In other words, productivity goes up. That's a good thing and benefits everyone. Rather than competing based on hiring armies of cheap, unskilled labor, and driving wages down, companies have to compete based on innovation, knowledge, and skill.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

hdrider_chgo said:


> What about training? The carpenters union provides a challenging 4-year apprenticeship covering all aspects of the trade, and ongoing skills training and certification.
> 
> Most other professions including doctors and lawyers have organizations that restrict access to the trade by people who don't meet minimum standards, and try to maintain control of their trade. You don't see them in the race to the bottom, competing on the lowest price.


You do know what they call the person who finished last in their class at medical school? Doctor.

I have seen many people buy their way into every union without any training.


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## hdrider_chgo (Feb 23, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I have seen many people buy their way into every union without any training.


Having a union card gets you nowhere by itself. Someone's still got to hire you and keep you.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

hdrider_chgo said:


> Having a union card gets you nowhere by itself. Someone's still got to hire you and keep you.


Most guys who buy their card are doing so through a company to get the job. And it's easier to keep a guy once there than go back to the next guy on the list versus hiring the best guy for the job. Tell me that ain't the most messed up system.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

hdrider_chgo said:


> In other words, productivity goes up. That's a good thing and benefits everyone. Rather than competing based on hiring armies of cheap, unskilled labor, and driving wages down, companies have to compete based on innovation, knowledge, and skill.


Experience is expected anywhere from managers to purchasers to CEOs. Experience, and accomplishments are factored in everywhere. Last I heard, these professions aren't part of the union. 

Companies should have the right to run however they want within the law. Unions interfere with business operations by adding more cob webs to get tangled in. 

Who says innovative, knowledgeable and talented employees require the union to retain?

Under the current system someone who's always sucked, but has 20 year seniority gets preference over someone that was hired a month ago with stellar production.

Imagine the rental charge on a 1990 Pinto costing more than a brand new Camry to rent simply because its been around longer and it has more miles (hours worked). The guy with the seniority will hold onto the messed up system dearly because he holds the strongest stake in someone like him getting overpaid. 

Without arbitrary non-sense restrictions, that 1990 Pinto will get scrapped so fast. 

That's basically the way it works in unionism.


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## hdrider_chgo (Feb 23, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> Under the current system someone who's always sucked, but has 20 year seniority gets preference over someone that was hired a month ago with stellar production....


Really? I've never seen that. Definitely not true in the carpenters union. As I said, carpenters are hired and fired at will, for any reason, and with no notice.


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## hdrider_chgo (Feb 23, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Most guys who buy their card are doing so through a company to get the job. And it's easier to keep a guy once there than go back to the next guy on the list versus hiring the best guy for the job. Tell me that ain't the most messed up system.


As I said, with union carpenters, the company can hire (and fire) whoever they want. So if the company helps a guy buy his card, they must really want him, because he's so good.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Electric_Light said:


> Under the current system someone who's always sucked, but has 20 year seniority gets preference over someone that was hired a month ago with stellar production.


Trade unions and labor unions are two completely different things, you are perhaps confusing the two.


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