# Who shows receipts to HO?



## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

You asked!


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

neolitic said:


> I'm confused.
> You come here asking advice,
> because you did something stupid.
> Then an experienced guy
> ...


Some guys need a hug and all the gentile words to go with it. Some need the 2x4 upside the head.
Usually the huggsy guys can't handle the 2x4.

This guy just needed a nudge to send the darn bill complete with the receipt he had floating around in the back of the truck.

Bud's nudge didn't have a hug on it. Thats all.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Gus Dering said:


> Some guys need a hug and all the gentile words to go with it. Some need the 2x4 upside the head.
> Usually the huggsy guys can't handle the 2x4.
> 
> This guy just needed a nudge to send the darn bill complete with the receipt he had floating around in the back of the truck.
> ...


I guess Daddy just raised me funny.


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## reposeecure (Oct 1, 2009)

*billing the truth*

They should get a copy of all the receipts IF you paid retail but not if you paid wholesale. Markups are a standard of doing business since you had to research, transport, plan, etc. If you found another receipt that went with that job then it should be billed to them and not eaten by you.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

neolitic said:


> I guess Daddy just raised me funny.


Yeah, you still have the splinters upside your melon to prove it.:laughing:

He desensitized you to a good rap upside the head. You see that as love. You are all twisted now Neo.:laughing:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Gus Dering said:


> Yeah, you still have the splinters upside your melon to prove it.:laughing:
> 
> He desensitized you to a good rap upside the head. You see that as love. You are all twisted now Neo.:laughing:


Socrates would never 
make it now either.
Waaay to subtle.


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## The Sprayman (Oct 1, 2009)

*Pay me now*



Gus Dering said:


> Yeah, you still have the splinters upside your melon to prove it.:laughing:
> 
> He desensitized you to a good rap upside the head. You see that as love. You are all twisted now Neo.:laughing:


when I first read your post I saw alot of holes in it. Now, if I was a PITA HO I could have tried to work you out of that 400+ dollars. But since you did the smart thing and itemized everything they simply read the bottom line and it matched your receipts, they paid you. Very scattered way to do this, if you had given them this list at the end of the job, you might not have needed to go through this (sans receipts). The 10% is more then justified for bringing materials to the job, but it seemed to me that you were afraid of this. So now case closed, everyones happy. Set up jobs and payment sched.s beforehand and keep a daily journal so you have timeline to work from and be prepared because in this economy the HO's are much harder to deal with. One more thing if you are getting upset on this forum then a savy HO will eat you up. Remember I send this to you with a :thumbup:


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## 10fingers (Jan 5, 2008)

10% on top of your 10% discount or are you buying off the shelve and adding 10%? I would not call it mark up but rather shipping and handling fees. Don't let the HO decide on the terminology of the game and you need to define the borders of this relationship too. The HO has asked for your reciepts because they don't trust you, it's as simple as that. Now you are open to justifying your overhead, mark up, profit etc....


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

It always amazes me (and we see this all the time here) that when poor forlorn inexperienced brethren of the trades blunder, they then come here to share their story of woe and beg all of us for support and sympathy and constructive benevolent thoughts. They come dishevelled and disgruntled and not knowing what they are going to do next.

Then when things miraculously and suddenly work out and they have a pocket full of instant-cash again they become emboldened and are ready to rip ass and tell everyone how intelligent they really are when in fact........

Amazing.


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## gene2 (Apr 27, 2009)

Contracting a project for Time & Materials is an oxymoron. You end up having to work like an Ox, realizing soon what a Moron you didn't want to be. 

When billing for work done, while much has been added along the way at the owner's discretion, it's OK as it's T&M for us, the client looks at the original estimate for T&M thinking all along this extra crap was included. DUH!, I'm a moron, working like an Ox & won't get paid.

I've experimented for +- 40 years with T&M, only one very special contractor has proven successful, most HO experience resulted in losses. Even our very special contractor who specializes in cost + has problems, legally negated by change orders rigidly adhered to & signed beforehand. Period. They always pay us first, then fight the battle if need to. They employ only the best subs. Thankfully, we're on thier list of subs.

No matter the contract status, once a client gets a number stuck in thier head, you have to carefully dot the i's & cross the t's BEFORE diversion of anything detailed in the scope of a contract. Only by forcing to sign a detailed change order will an owner realize what is happening. The owner is usually overwhelmed of the demands of any contracting process, they are not pros, just wanting to cut a GC cost from the deal & they usually think it is easy savings. Subs can get screwed easily here.


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## AJAX (Sep 12, 2009)

Bud Cline said:


> It always amazes me (and we see this all the time here) that when poor forlorn inexperienced brethren of the trades blunder, they then come here to share their story of woe and beg all of us for support and sympathy and constructive benevolent thoughts. They come dishevelled and disgruntled and not knowing what they are going to do next.
> 
> Then when things miraculously and suddenly work out and they have a pocket full of instant-cash again they become emboldened and are ready to rip ass and tell everyone how intelligent they really are when in fact........
> 
> Amazing.


Did I "beg" for support and sympathy? I think not:no:. "dishevelled and disgruntled and not knowing what they are going to do next.":laughing::laughing::laughing:

Man.... your quite the passive aggressive arn't ya? 

Yeah I guess it is amazing. Looking back on my original post, I didn't quite come across the way I wanted. 

This is a great forum. Where all on here here to share our experiences good or bad right? You ever f*** up a job? Sure ya have. Would you like to share so I can tell you what a pussy you are? There's alot of very knowledgeable people here(you do not come across as one) and that's why I come here. Everyone wants that extra little edge to put them where they need to be in the market place. Because I f***ed up on that job, does that mean you need to blast me for it? I get it.... I don't need the 2x4 approach of pointing out the obvious. Telling me to march over and demand my money was not right. Anyone can see that. I guess I don't see how that works for you? You come off as having a lot of anger. 

Maybe I should have wrote a book because the property in question is not the clients residence, it's a rental, and in fact they live 1 1/2hr from me and they both work. Where? I don't know? Just seemed easier at the time to communicate electronically, as we all do here. I usually meet in person if there's issues. It all worked out for the best, but could have gone the other way, that's pretty obvious. Things didn't miraculously and suddenly just work out. I believe I helped it move that way with the help from others on this site not you Bud. :no:

We all can only do the best we can at that time. Then we take from that experience and evolve to build better experiences.

Thanks to everyone for all the advise, even you Bud:notworthy


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## AJAX (Sep 12, 2009)

gene2 said:


> No matter the contract status, once a client gets a number stuck in thier head, you have to carefully dot the i's & cross the t's BEFORE diversion of anything detailed in the scope of a contract. Only by forcing to sign a detailed change order will an owner realize what is happening. The owner is usually overwhelmed of the demands of any contracting process, they are not pros, just wanting to cut a GC cost from the deal & they usually think it is easy savings. Subs can get screwed easily here.


I think your right on the money there. Good point...


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Group hug, everyone?....anyone? Feel the luv?


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

haha.. I thought about this thread about an hour ago. Went to an india guys house for an estimate.. he asked for a breakdown of material vs labor. :no: I told him it was a package deal, that I sell a finished piece. he then asked me to take money off and he would okay the work being done.. which is in another thread about how they think everything is a bargaining tool.. I wonder if their bosses do that to them?!


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

One thing a lot of you don't understand, is a lot of the world, haggling is part of everyday life. So, some people come here and will continue to do it until they know/learn better. Just remember, haggling works both ways. Every time they try to talk you down, you can always find something else to add on.


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## bujaly (Dec 16, 2006)

woodtradesman said:


> Well said.


I second that! I will be using that one here someday soon..

I went down this road once before about mark-up and i have since marked every little 1" "screw up"..
I can't think of a better way of saying it to a customer, then what DAVID C said.. Maybe... There buying the cake, not the flour and sugar..:clap:


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

Myself and many other contractors around here used to do a lot of T&M and cost plus work....state didn't like that game. I have customers that I have done work for every year T&M. I always get their work and everyone is happy when I leave cause I know I'm going back. I like it when someone calls and says "I need this done, when can you get to it". Sorry Mike I don't consider myself a hack.:no:


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

Don't want to hijack this thread but Ajax what method are you using below:

Cost of item: $137.00

Plus 10% Mark Up : $150.70 (137 x 1.10)
However - 150.70 x .90 = 135.63

Plus 10 Margin: 152.22 (137 divided by .90)
152.22 x .90 = 136.999
This is how it should be done. It may help you in the future 

This is a much longer story than appropriate for this thread. Just want to help you get evened out. 

Mark up and margin are two different environments. You can call it mark up if you like. Just use the proper arithmetic.


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## AJAX (Sep 12, 2009)

We Fix Houses said:


> Don't want to hijack this thread but Ajax what method are you using below:
> 
> Cost of item: $137.00
> 
> ...



I normally have been using just Mark Up, 10-20%. Your right, big difference. I had management schooling on this in 03, have forgotten about till now. Thanks. Gross profit and gross margin, two completely different things.

Got check yesterday. The guy expressed his appreciation for doing what he asked and asked for me to give him a bid for other work on the house. I guess he was just testing me to see how I operate? But, he did say he got burn from the last contractor he used. Well, anyway it will give me a chance to make more money from him.


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## NADC/AMC (Oct 2, 2009)

Glad to see everything worked out.

As for showing receipts, as a rule, I never show them unless that is the way my contract is structured. Almost all of my contracts are based on a "turn-key" price and includes several "allotments" for items like lighting, plumbing fixtures, cabinetry, paint, solar, etc. 

This way if the client picks out an item that cost more than the "allotment", I can adjust the billing accordingly. And I do so via a change order which both of us must sign prior to proceeding. Most projects seem to have 10-15 change orders. 

As an old fashion kind of guy, I wish we could do some of our business on a hand shake, mainly change orders. But for now, those days of integrity are gone in our industries and in some cases replaced by selective memory. CYA, baby. Maybe we'll get back there one day.

With all that said...I have on occasion structured a contract that states that all bids/receipts will be approved by both the GC/Architectural Designer (me) and the client. Two-three bids will be secured, and I'll get paid an OHP percentage above all receipts. This margin percentage will vary from 20-70% based on the size of the individual items on a project and what my actual OH is for any given year.

Believe me, this is not done often due to the extra time it takes to prepare all of that, especially on a big project. But this gives some clients the warm and fuzzy feeling that they're not being taken advantage of. But they will be billed for every bit of time and effort, material acquisition, delivery and so on. Which in the long run doesn't save them anything...especially time.

Sorry to be so wordy!


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

AJAX,
My typical response when a cusomer asks for a receipt is "my invoice will be your receipt". I sometimes, depending on the job, list materials on the invoice as well, with a mark up of course.
It has worked out fine so far.


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## AJAX (Sep 12, 2009)

NADC/AMC said:


> Glad to see everything worked out.
> 
> As for showing receipts, as a rule, I never show them unless that is the way my contract is structured. Almost all of my contracts are based on a "turn-key" price and includes several "allotments" for items like lighting, plumbing fixtures, cabinetry, paint, solar, etc.
> 
> This way if the client picks out an item that cost more than the "allotment", I can adjust the billing accordingly. And I do so via a change order which both of us must sign prior to proceeding. Most projects seem to have 10-15 change orders.


I've been doing to same thing just calling it "allowances". Say you "allot" $200/ea for toilets and client calls for one they seen at a store for $500. Do you structure it up front that you add margin%age to everything so when you have a change order for that new toilet of $600 there is no questions? Or just deal with it as it comes?



NADC/AMC said:


> As an old fashion kind of guy, I wish we could do some of our business on a hand shake, mainly change orders. But for now, those days of integrity are gone in our industries and in some cases replaced by selective memory. CYA, baby. Maybe we'll get back there one day.


Selective memory, lol, that's exactly right!



NADC/AMC said:


> With all that said...I have on occasion structured a contract that states that all bids/receipts will be approved by both the GC/Architectural Designer (me) and the client. Two-three bids will be secured, and I'll get paid an OHP percentage above all receipts. This margin percentage will vary from 20-70% based on the size of the individual items on a project and what my actual OH is for any given year.


OHP = Over head percentage? Given your OH for the year, what are your factors for deciding that percentage? Small projects, big projects, the amount of time you'll have to spend attending to each detail, what?


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## NADC/AMC (Oct 2, 2009)

Hey AJAX,

When the client picks out an item that goes beyond the allotment, I add the margin percentage to the new item. So far I haven't had any problems.

OHP-Over Head & Profit. My method for figuring the 'Over Head" portion is simply based on all of the actual items I pay for in a year. Every year it gets tweaked as needed. I figure in taxes, accountant, software, office supplies, fuel, ins, lic, bonds, repairs, phone, website, advertising, etc. Pretty much everything I use in my business.

This quickly ads up to tens of thousands in a year. I simply break that down to monthly, weekly and even daily figures. And depending on the size of the project and how long it will take to complete, I add that figure in. And then I add my margin percentage for Profit. Also based on the size of the project.

It's not too scientific, but gets pretty darn accurate. I have a daily number I need to reach, and I add it to the quote. So at the end of the day, I'm sure to have made a profit.


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## SilverFish (Nov 16, 2009)

hey guys,

thanks for posting all this good information. I realize this post has been dormant for a while, but it is pretty much exactly the information I am looking for to help me out on my latest project.

I am doing a very large basement remodel for a couple that got in over their heads. She is "very difficult" and he is oblivious, but kind. He convinced her to buy this house in town that has been sinking into the ground since it was built. They were given the pre-purchase inspection report by the seller and had one conducted themselves. Both reports clearly stated that the house was not built on stable ground and the foundation needed significant work. They bought the house anyway.

They hired us to put in a footing under the crumbling 6" footingless walls. they then decided they wanted to gain a 1' of headroom in the basement, so we had to dig up the entire 1-2" slab, only to find that the ground below was saturated with water and actually felt like walking in one of those carnival bouncy-houses. We had to take out up to 24" of solid in some places to find solid ground.

Long story short, after several consultations with and additional structural reinforcement requestes from the geo tech and engineer, the home owner is contesting my change orders, requesting written statements from the city inspector of his requests, challenging invoices from the geo tech, and asking me to present all my receipts for them to review.

I am writing here to get your opinions on presenting receipts. I structured it as a T&M job since I knew there would be hundreds of changes, but they seemed to not be able to grasp that concept. They asked me at the onset how I could know exactly what the project would cost with so many unknown variables. I admitted that I couldn't know, especially if the geo tech would require weekly inspections and subsequent changes. I explained the process of change orders, which seemed to make them uncomfortable. They then asked "what if the project comes in less than you propose?" I said there was pretty much no chance in hell of that, but if they would prefer, we could do a T&M job. They agreed, still not sure of what to expect, regardless of several hours explaining it. Then, as the project progresses, I present Change Orders so that they can follow along with progress and see how the total is fluctuating. They asked for a bathroom in the basement, they asked that we reclaim the crawl space as basement, install a new sewer line, install a new main water supply, and two new egress and new sliders all around.

Now, as I tell them that we are nearing the end of the project and I have one more change order to present them (for: under-slab drainage channels that lead to the new sump-pump, the new gravel backfill at the ext. of the walls because the geo tech doesn't like the soil we removed, plus additional labor for various tasks, etc.) they come at me with accusations that I purposely drove up costs. They alluded that I, the geo tech, engineer, and city inspector were in cahoots to drive up costs and get as much out of them as possible.

Sorry for the long story, but I don't know how else to explain it. They are asking for all my receipts. While I don't have anything to hide in my receipts, it's about $60K of receipts that I don't have the time or desire to copy, NOR get into the BS scrutinization of this, that, and whatever.

Any words of wisdom? How about you Bud Cline? I liked your insight to AJAX.

Oh, and let me add that I have agreed to every last request of theirs: meeting on saturday evenings, providing numerous "what if" pricing for their lawyer so they can start a legal battle with previous home owner, and taking a lot of attitude and complaining.

Thanks,
Adam :wallbash:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

adamCohoPDX said:


> hey guys,
> 
> thanks for posting all this good information. I realize this post has been dormant for a while, but it is pretty much exactly the information I am looking for to help me out on my latest project.
> 
> ...


I'm just taking a wild guess but you don't have a contract, do you. I worked T&M jobs, cost plus or whatever you want to call them for years with great success. I'm also going to guess that you are way behind on your billing. New clients I met with every Friday/Saturday and billed for the previous week. And YES on T&M jobs they get a copy of EVERY receipt & labor log. How did you collect so many change orders with no money? Hey, it's a T&M job why was there any change order? It should have been a HUGE RED FLAG that they bought a defective piece of property to begin with. You didn't think they really wanted to pay to fix the faults did you? These clients seem to be running you rather than you running their job. If you don't get a substantial check soon, I mean very SOON, cut your losses and wait to be served.


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## SilverFish (Nov 16, 2009)

Your assumptions are wrong.

I have a contract.

I have submitted Progress Payments and have been paid.

I submitted Change Orders so that I would have a record of them agreeing to the work. I also used the CO system to help them through the process, as they were not tracking anything on their own.

I billed them pretty much bi-weekly and made sure to receive payment on the spot.

The adjusted contract total is $78,xxx; I have completed about $69,xxx; I have been paid $59,xxx; I have ~$5,660 on contract deposit (which should be $6,660).

I ask for a deposit, then deduct a percentage of the deposit and apply it to Progress Payments over the course of the project so that a portion of their deposit is always on hand. They can't quite grasp that concept and asked me, numerous times, to just exhaust the deposit.

So, all said and done, I am only really $1K in the hole. That is if they pay me the latest bill.

Yes, the fact that they bought this POS house should have been a red flag, you are right. Hence the Change Orders and the periodic payment schedule.

And to reiterate, I don't mind showing them the bills, I just don't feel like it if I don't have to. So, you are saying I have to, huh?

Thanks


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

In my opinion, when the contract is time and material, the invoices for material should be included when you bill for them, otherwise, how do you support your invoice amount?


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## AJAX (Sep 12, 2009)

For some reason they distrust you. Do you know why? 

Has all the payments been fine up till that point? Or have they questioned? 

If you just show them what your cost is on this final part that their questioning and show them that you are trying to work with them then you won't have to add up $60K in receipts. But, your receipts are yours not theirs. And if you have to add them all up and show them, bill them for your time, it's T&M right? Your TIME!

BTW, I don't think Bud's advice on going over and demanding the money is a very good one. How the hell that works for him and still in business is beyond me. Can you imagine going over there and just screaming at the customer for the $1000?:bangin:


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## SilverFish (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks for responding AJAX. 

I don't know why they don't trust me.

Not only does she not trust me, but she also wants to sue the previous home owners because she feels they are responsible for her problems. She also wants to sue the City for: 1) letting the home be built in the first place in 1923; and 2) making them repair the home as we have. They also want to contest the geo tech bills and have nothing but bad things to say about the engineer, who happens to be one of the city's best structural engineers.

They have questioned why we have had to make certain structural upgrades which I have explained were due to geo tech, engineer, and/or city requests based on the instabilty of the soil and geo tech site visits and reports. 

Regarding the reciepts and labor logs, if I go through and add everything up, they will end up owing me a good deal more than they do know. There is a lot of shoring and supervision labor that I have not billed them for, and haven't intended to bill them for, as I am sympathetic to their situation. I told them when I got my last check from them March 12. He said thank you, she was preoccupied with trying to understand how change orders worked.

I am mostly pissed because I have done nothing wrong and have only bent over backwards to help them out. I even made suggestions in how to save them money but they insisted on work that drove up cost.


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## SilverFish (Nov 16, 2009)

jlhaslip said:


> In my opinion, when the contract is time and material, the invoices for material should be included when you bill for them, otherwise, how do you support your invoice amount?


I can understand that point of view and think it makes sense, but I just don't trust these people. Like I said, I have nothing to hide, but I don't feel like giving them any information that they can manipulate and use as potential ammunition.

Also, this project started out as a fixed bid but once weknew there would be so many uncertain variables, we signed a T&M contract. They also wanted to know exactly what something would cost before doing it do I got bids for the proposed work, gave them a marked up price on a change order for prior approval, and commenced work once CO was approved. It's kind of a combination of T&M and fixed bid operations unfortunately; or maybe fortunately.


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## William James (Mar 5, 2010)

Adam, just some friendly advice. Anyone can view this forum. I would be careful bad mouthing HO, especially current clients. Some is needed to explain the situation. but Id just stick to the facts. Lawsuits and all. Personally, I would of walked away from the job, if I knew the customer would be a problem. But it's my night job, so I can pick and choose. It sounds like you've done everything to do right by the customer. But knowing you'd have problems from the start makes it all irrelevant. Hopefully, you gave (these type of people) options of we can toss the old soil back in but you'll have drainage issues, or a better option is to backfill with gravel. More expensive, but if it fits your budget, well worth it. If that's even an option. Put yourself in there position. Get inside their head and let it drive you insane. Sorry, thought we were doing rough drafts for a book. Good luck!


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## SilverFish (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks for the advice, Jay. I see your point about how u refer to them. I suppose that can be taken care of with a few clicks of the mouse here. I think I'll do that. 

I wish I could have walked away from the job, but times are tough. This isn't my night job but the company that I own and operate on a daily basis.

I have put myself in their shoes, which is why I was against lowering the floor, roughing in a basement bath, and expafing the basement. I advised them that their money would br better spent on the house proper. I can't really give the options you suggest because there is a very involved feobtech and engineer that call the shots. If I do not adhere to their prescriptions, the responsibilty falls on me. I can have the home owner sign a waiver that states they take all responsibilty, but that never really works. I would rather take the engineer and geo tech's advice and know that I did the job right. Besides, the city inspector keeps saying 'whatever the geo tech says, I want to see done.' 

By the way, the main levels of the house are in shambles. There is a hole where the chimney was, the only bath and kitchen have been gutted, the floors are rotting away, etc. They insisted on making the basement lavishly livable and said that they would live in the basement while he fixed up the house. 

Anyway, I guess just needed to vent somewhere and try to get dome advice at the same time. I appreciate everybody's insight and help.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

adamCohoPDX said:


> Your assumptions are wrong.
> 
> I have a contract.
> 
> ...


Good for you. Sounds like you do have your ducks in a row. Your post made it sound like you were way behind the 8 ball. But, yes on a T&M job copies of all your receipts are provided to the client at time of billing. If you don't how are they to know what they are being charged for. T&M work is not for everyone. Good job & Good luck.


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## William James (Mar 5, 2010)

*we all have to vent sometimes*

sounds like a messed up situation.  and you're making the most of it. just know you'll be out of there before you know it. And thanks for not getting big-time on a little guy (whose jobs are Lincoln's to your Franklin's) giving you advice. I can't walk out on a job during the day either or I'd probably get fired. We all have to make money.


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

I would say you need to pay a visit to your attorney. The way I read this is that they are either complete flakes who will never understand what they got themselves into or they know exactly what they got into and are looking for someone else to pay for it. Either way, you are in the line of fire and some advice from your attorney as to the best way to proceed would be money well spent. Anyone who wants to sue a City that allowed the house to be built as it was in 1923 is not put together with a complete hardware package. :no:


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## AJAX (Sep 12, 2009)

Mike(VA) said:


> I would say you need to pay a visit to your attorney. The way I read this is that they are either complete flakes who will never understand what they got themselves into or they know exactly what they got into and are looking for someone else to pay for it. Either way, you are in the line of fire and some advice from your attorney as to the best way to proceed would be money well spent. *Anyone who wants to sue a City that allowed the house to be built as it was in 1923 is not put together with a complete hardware package.* :no:


X2. Well, put...


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## SilverFish (Nov 16, 2009)

so the HO has been consulting with their attorney, but I am still not going to contact one. They don't have anything to hold against me and I have clarified/shot down all their misconceptions and attempts to quote my contract against me.

I am pretty sure they just do not know what they got themselves into. Regardless of how many times I have tried to explain things, they just can't seem to get it.

I am in the process of gathering all the invoices and labor logs for the project, photocopying them and putting them in order to present to them. They are now in default of paying my latest bill and I can, legally, put a lien on their home. I am going to hold off on that until I have presented them with the receipts and labor logs, though. if they still refuse to pay, I can put a lien in their home and still get my money. like I said, I am not in breach of contract and I have reviewed it several times....:boxing:

i have to say, while this process is not exactly fun, I do experience some joy each time I realize that I am well within my rights and guidelines of my contract and the local building authority.

Adam


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

SilverFish said:


> *so the HO has been consulting with their attorney, but I am still not going to contact one*. They don't have anything to hold against me and I have clarified/shot down all their misconceptions and attempts to quote my contract against me.
> 
> I am pretty sure they just do not know what they got themselves into. Regardless of how many times I have tried to explain things, they just can't seem to get it.
> 
> ...


Remember.A lien is only good if you win in court.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

There's only been one time where the home owner asked me for receipts. He was 87 years old, he didn't really need the receipts, he was just being nosey. I never gave them to him, I told him I needed them for my own records, what's he going to use them for? All he needs for his records is my invoice with the total price. 

The way I think of it is, when I go to Home Depot or the super market, I don't ask for receipts showing what they paid their suppliers. It won't mean anything to me, all I need to know is what they charge me.


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## SilverFish (Nov 16, 2009)

JumboJack said:


> Remember.A lien is only good if you win in court.


I dont know about that and I have to admit I have never filed a lien. From my understanding, however, a lien is handled in a separate court here in Oregon and I can receive payment from the lien while any other dispute regarding the project may be going on. The fact is, there is nothing else for them to take me to court for. I have completed the work as outlined in the contract documents, I have obtained signed approvals for changes in work, and I have receipts and labor logs that prove my expenses associated with the project (which are actually in excess of the amount I was going to bill them for).

The City has approved and signed off on all my work and it has all been documented by photographs and sent to the engineer as he requested. He has approved my work, as has the geotech who was asked to provide special inspections reports. As far as I can tell they do not have anything to dispute in regards to quality of work.

I am looking further into this lien business, however. Maybe you are right, but I think it works differently.


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## SilverFish (Nov 16, 2009)

KennMacMoragh said:


> There's only been one time where the home owner asked me for receipts. He was 87 years old, he didn't really need the receipts, he was just being nosey. I never gave them to him, I told him I needed them for my own records, what's he going to use them for? All he needs for his records is my invoice with the total price.
> 
> The way I think of it is, when I go to Home Depot or the super market, I don't ask for receipts showing what they paid their suppliers. It won't mean anything to me, all I need to know is what they charge me.


Precisely. They signed a contract for an amount that my billing has not even reached yet, so what's the big deal? This should not have come as a surprise. My invoices won't tell them a damn thing except that they owe me more than they had originally thought, not less. Especially since they have agreed to pay my OHP, which I set at a rate higher than normal (in the signed contract) due to the uncertainty of the project process.

The reason they want copies, however, is because they, for some reason, think that I am billing them for an exceptionally larger amount than I paid to conduct the work. This, as I stated in my other post above, is not the case, but rather the opposite. Had they been willing to write a polite rather than harsh and accusatory email in response to my billing request, or chosen to receive my phone calls rather than hang up on me (literally-they picked up the phone and slammed it down), I could have explained this long ago. Instead, they have employed an attorney, asked that I cancel my permit, and the project was not finished this past Monday as was the original plan. They are also staying in a hotel, which means they will have to extend that as well, driving up cost even more.


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## SilverFish (Nov 16, 2009)

update on this whole ordeal:

I gave the HO the copies of the invoices and also submitted a bill for the additional costs incurred, which was more than they were pissed about in the first place. They tried to take all kinds of avenues to be able to blame me and find me at fault, but to no avail. I was paid all that was out, got a signed document saying that we have absolutely nothing to do with each other and they can have no recourse what-so-ever later down the line. In fact, if they do try to contact me, say anything about my company, or miss a payment to any of my sub-contractors (which they are now making directly), I have full legal recourse and they automatically admit guilt. In that case, they would have to pay me my legal fees and all projected OHP on the remainder of the project.

I couldn't be happier.

Thanks everybody for your advice.


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## BradingCon (Dec 17, 2010)

I agree with much that has been said here. On T&M jobs, I always show them the receipts. This is because materials are charged at what they cost. I do not show receipts to clients jobs that I bid on. This is because how I come up with the contract price is none of their business. They agreed to the price and and how I figure that price is none of their concern. Regarding this issue, if they want to check your math, let them. Present them the receipts and say you forgot to add one. That will teach them to check contractors figures.:thumbsup:


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## Bweikel (Feb 20, 2011)

AJAX said:


> Did I "beg" for support and sympathy? I think not:no:. "dishevelled and disgruntled and not knowing what they are going to do next.":laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Man.... your quite the passive aggressive arn't ya?
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: I hate when people act like they are perfect and never made a mistake small or big :whistling:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

On cost plus contracts we show all original receipts and invoices. JAW


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

I usually will not show receipts. I will sometimes itemize an invoice with a breakdown with my cost added on, only if i feel there is any issues. Most will never question the invoice. 

They have no clue were you bought your stuff from or anything. Say you use stock off the truck, since you didnt keep that invoice handy from 6 months ago...they dont have to pay for it? I will usually cary bulk stuff in cases and sharpie the price on the box. At the end of the job i add that onto the invoice. 

Its none of their business.


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## avguy (Feb 8, 2010)

Weird coincidence, the developer who built this house (40+ years ago) just sent a letter a few days ago offering us the complete file on the house.
He brought it over last night.
All receipts from the suppliers are included.


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## LEVELBEST (Dec 28, 2006)

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, because I haven't read the entire thread but if you are charging them 10 percent mark up and you DON'T have a sales tax i.d., then I would not let them know you are charging 10%.

Marking up materials and not charging or paying sales tax is a big no-no, and something that would bite you in the ass in court.


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