# Cleaning up another carpenter's mess



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> I just have to ask, but you do realize that these people are pros at screwing contractors, right? This isn't the first episode of this for them. This is their routine method of doing business. This was panned to happen from the day you first met them.


 My first thought when they said they just decided to finish the other 2 rooms.

No different than "Oh, while you're here....."

A change in the scope of work=Change Order, period.

One way that I've found to equalize the playing field is to simply state, 
"Once we have completed the original scope of work and have been paid in full, we would be happy to contract the additional work."

Otherwise, a change order will be drafted with an exact dollar amount and signed by both parties for work to proceed on any additional work.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Have to agree with all of the foregoing posts. Dot all "I's" and cross all "T's". I go even one further since a lot of these people think they can get extra work for nothing. Have them sign the change order and as a provision of said change order payment will have to be made in advance. This will curtail the endless "I changed my mind" "I'm not happy with this" "The color doesn't match my shoes" etc


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## deckman22 (Oct 20, 2007)

If I have to clean up someone else's mess on a job I all ready bid it's going to cost them extra, screw feeling sorry for anyone. Stay right on top of payments & if they start to get behind pull off the job, simply as that.

Far as collecting now ask one more time & tell them you plan on filing a lien the next day if you don't have it.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Another one. Man, how many of these stories do we have to hear about before they wake up?

Sorry to the OP for your troubles, but a job like that - here's how I would have done it.

Same as you - it's T&M should cost between this and that. GIVE ME MONEY, WHEN THAT MONEY IS GONE, YOU GIVE ME MORE.

Never will I finance these people. Especially in those circumstances.


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## BigSlick (Jan 10, 2008)

We always use fixed price contracts. No matter what. I'm not about to turn in my our my subs hours in to anybody. Working T&M or with a range of cost to do a project is just begging for problems. Anything unforeseen is a change order, with 50% due at time of change order and balance due at next progress payment. I hope it works out for you. Good luck.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

If you play with a turd long enough, you are gonna get **** on your hands. Simple as that. There were too many warning signs from the get go, such as hiring someone else!!! Try to get your money if you can, but I think you've just paid some stupid tax. I think it happens to us all at one time or another.


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## Big Rig (Feb 23, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> *Maximum labor rate =*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hee-hee! Mr Finley strikes again!


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

BigSlick said:


> We always use fixed price contracts. No matter what. I'm not about to turn in my our my subs hours in to anybody. Working T&M or with a range of cost to do a project is just begging for problems. Anything unforeseen is a change order, with 50% due at time of change order and balance due at next progress payment. I hope it works out for you. Good luck.


How would you do a project where the scope of the work cannot be determined ?

Most of my work is on a T&M basis. I've never had a complaint or problem with a customer. Everything is above board, the client sees exacty what their project costs, including my "fair and reasonable" overhead and profit.

I do a lot of work where let's say; you won't know what you're dealing with until you open it up. Rather than just throw a large number at it I go cost plus. It's a fair way of doing work. Fair to both parties.

I will do projects on fixed price. When the scope of the work is known, say in the case of new construction.


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

Now you know 2 sides to every story...i wonder why the other guy didnt do stuff right?? Did they beat the living crap out of him on the money? Nag the crap out of him every day?? You dont know. Best thing i have learned...is when you get the job if they start the well this guy did this and that and it was bad bs.. Just walk away. I stopped reading the thread after the 1st post...I would be happy you got what you got. 

They already blew their money on the first job and they wanted somebody to come by and do it for the same price. I hear that junk every day...well so and so did this and that we dont know why they wont call me back or show up. Thats when you say ok well let me figureup some things and walk out the do and toss the job notes in the trash. You have to look past the money and say i think i will make more sitting at home then beating my head against the wall.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Rob PA said:


> Now you know 2 sides to every story...i wonder why the other guy didnt do stuff right?? Did they beat the living crap out of him on the money? Nag the crap out of him every day?? You dont know. Best thing i have learned...is when you get the job if they start the well this guy did this and that and it was bad bs.. Just walk away. I stopped reading the thread after the 1st post...I would be happy you got what you got.
> 
> They already blew their money on the first job and they wanted somebody to come by and do it for the same price. I hear that junk every day...well so and so did this and that we dont know why they wont call me back or show up. Thats when you say ok well let me figureup some things and walk out the do and toss the job notes in the trash. You have to look past the money and say i think i will make more sitting at home then beating my head against the wall.


 

As bad as things are for me right now, I have turned down 2 jobs in the past month. Money is so tight that I cannot afford to LOSE any. Hey, this guy made a mistake and may lose $1300. It happens. It is called a learning experience. Some customers are not worth the trouble and sometimes you have to identify the warning signs and walk away.


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## BigSlick (Jan 10, 2008)

If there are a lot of unknowns to a remodel, I let them know I will have to demo the areas to give them an accurate cost of there project. So we start off with a demolition agreement. Then its pretty straight forward of what needs to be done. I'm not ripping on T&M if it works for you that's great. I just personally think its a bit of of gamble to submit the price after the work has been done. 


I've had plenty of customers object to price, its always been before the work was done. We work it out or we don't, but no one loses out on the deal. If anyone wants to argue why T&M is an accepted way of doing business I would love to hear the benefit of it. Thanks. Good luck


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

katoman said:


> How would you do a project where the scope of the work cannot be determined ?


How could the scope of work on this little job "not be determined"? The original scope was to move some walls, install drop ceilings, and wire the rooms. Sure- the first guy made a bit of a mess and left a pile of material, but it sounds to me like the OP was just too lazy to spend the time to determine the remaining scope and provide a hard bid, which has resulted in him getting f'ed in the end. And why would the extra two offices not have been done based on a hard number? How hard is it to price up building too offices??

The whole thing is the result of a sloppy process, and could easily have been avoided.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

hate doing this sorta thing... even more so when it was started by someone on my own crew... which has happened several times

first worst case of this was on a house i trimmed 4 years ago. teh lead started setting sils for the windows on the bay. his sils werent level or lining up... from there the casing was symetrical (sp) he mitred the to opposite far sides and the top on the ends... then ran it straight across....... then walked away from it because he didnt like how the sils werent working


i had to remove the sils, remove one window because it wasnt at the same height as the other two.. reset it, reset the sil... but then told to continue with his casing detailllll... :no: i told them a jack mitre is required here if were not doing a proper boston header.... they didnt know what a jack mitre was.... neither did the gc whos been a carpenter for 30 years... when i had the chance to leave i ran


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Bob - I wasn't referring to the scope of the job on the OP post, rather the method of billing.

BigSlick - I don't submit a bill at the end when doing T&M. I keep a running record of monies spent on the job, the owner gets an update every two weeks. 

So the HO knows where he's at, this helps them decide what monies will be spent on what materials. eg. if they are getting tight then maybe go with a more economical kitchen. It changes as we go.

They give me front money, when it's almost gone, I go and tell them the funds are almost gone and I will need x amount more. 

All materials, labour, labour burden, overhead and profit are included in every two week statement. The difference (which applies to the OPs' job) is that I am working on their money, not mine.

I simply but politely tell clients that I am in the construction business, not the finance business or the risk taking business.

I cannot loose money. Granted, a GC may make more money on fixed price if everything goes great, finishes ahead of schedule. No argument with that. 

For me, I like my way because there is no risk and I know how much money I will make on any given project. Not "well if all goes well I should make x" 

I'm currently booking for next September. Not bragging at all, just pointing out that this method of billing does not mean customers will not go for it.

Hey, everyone does it the way they like. No problemo. Just putting this out there as an option to people. There are always at least 3 or 4 ways to skin a cat. :thumbsup:


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## Gough (May 1, 2010)

Katoman

We do pretty much the same thing, especially with new clients. The only difference is that, on smaller jobs that only take a week or two, we will give them a running total on a daily basis.

With established clients, we don't need to update them quite as often.


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

people are weird and change their minds too much..we were trying to get a room ready for a move in at a nursing home..just paint and a few minor repairs...we got the room on monday night..no move in date was given i asked...ok seams and picture holes needed patched..so we just used regular compound and let it dry didnt figure we were in a hurry...carpet had to go in any way?? which will be in next week

get there wednesday...oh it has to be finished by thursday?? the carpet isnt even in?? well you can just move the furniture back out next week?? i dont think so..they tell us we have until 1 to paint..well 1130 comes around here comes clothes and furniture in..still painting the bathroom and trim

i just stop..im done..tell them we will drop off the carpet when it comes in this isnt worth it..take the install off the invoice


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## kswoodbutcher (Dec 4, 2010)

This is what the school of hard knocks is all about. As long as we learn from it.


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## wncbuilder (Nov 10, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> If you play with a turd long enough, you are gonna get **** on your hands. Simple as that. There were too many warning signs from the get go, such as hiring someone else!!! Try to get your money if you can, but I think you've just paid some stupid tax. I think it happens to us all at one time or another.


Thanks Dave


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## mmconllc (Mar 18, 2011)

Warren said:


> For starters................
> 
> You stated that you lost the job to a guy who was drastically lower. What does this tell you about this customer? Secondly, you have not mentioned a formal contract. I think you are lucky to still have your shirt!!


Bingo!


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