# Lots of questions about drywall and bathrooms



## nobody (Feb 18, 2006)

Hi everyone! I am a first time poster but have lurked here for a while! I am a novice when it comes to drywall but am willing to try anything. This is a great forum and everyone seems very helpful! Enough butt kissing. 

I have three questions about hanging drywall in a small 5' x 10' full basement bathroom. I am installing a tub with a shower head. My *first *question is, can I transition hardi backer to green drywall about 6" away from the tub and overlap the first columm of tiles over the drywall and hardi backer? I want the paint to go on the drywall but not the hardi backer. *Second*, should I use plastic on the walls that are along the concrete foundation wall? I am using R9 insulation with a vapor barrier along the same wall but I wanted to stop any drafts if possible. I think one of the posts I read on this site said not to use plastic, and another said to use plastic. Just trying to find out the best way. *Third*, another post on this site stated not to use greenboard on the ceiling of the bathroom. It would eventually sag due to it's own weight. I have already put greenboard on the ceiling above the tub and glued it but I am willing to take it down and put something better up.

That's alot of questions but thanks in advance. Be kind, I am new at this. :notworthy


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

First: I wouldn't lap much, or the grout will work loose at the area under the drywall.

Second: It's best to use plastic.

Third: I use greenboard on bath cielings all the time, never had a call back for it.

Bob


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Probably me that said no greenboard on the ceiling, - - it's against code on ceilings (unless you use 12" O.C. ceiling joists), - - reasons being it 'can' sag from it's own weight, and it is less impervious to steam and humidity than even normal drywall.

Like Bob says, though, - - that doesn't necessarily mean you 'will' have a problem.


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## Steve Unkie (Jan 21, 2006)

Tom,
Is this a local code, I have'nt heard this before. I will check my area to see.
If it is less impervious to steam and humidity then why is it the recommended wall covering for bathrooms? 

I learn something new everyday, but this one surprised me.

Steve Unkie.


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

USG has pulled its certification for green board as tile backer in wet areas. Look it up. So many guys continue to ignore this fact.

Old school guys will continue to use greenboard until they can't buy it anymore. The more progressive guys have long ditched it.

DensArmorPlus is harder to work with, but much better overall for a bathroom.

DenShield will make you forget how to say "Hardibacker or Cement Board" the first time you use it. I kid you not.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

We're using purple board here, anybody else?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Greg Di said:


> DenShield will make you forget how to say "Hardibacker or Cement Board" the first time you use it. I kid you not.


Hey, elaborate on that. I went from cement board to Hardi backer and thought that was a big improvement!


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Steve Unkie said:


> Tom,
> Is this a local code, I have'nt heard this before. I will check my area to see.
> If it is less impervious to steam and humidity then why is it the recommended wall covering for bathrooms?
> 
> ...


Hey, Steve, - - hmmm, - - I'll have to check, - - it's been (at least local) code for so long I don't even remember.

It is (or was) recommended 'wall' covering, - - correct, - - but never recommended 'ceiling' covering, - - basically because steam rises is why.

At present, - - it is no longer even 'recommended' for walls, - - and is no longer even 'permitted' as a tile backer (in wet areas).

It has, IMO, - - basically become the 'scape-goat' for shoddy workmanship by today's 'rip-n-run' contractors.

You'll probably see from the next 50 or so posts, - - that's definitely not the 'popular' opinion. :whistling


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Greg Di said:


> USG has pulled its certification for green board as tile backer in wet areas. Look it up. So many guys continue to ignore this fact.
> 
> Old school guys will continue to use greenboard until they can't buy it anymore. The more progressive guys have long ditched it.



In actuality, - - 'old school' guys DON'T use greenboard in wet areas, - - but 'new-school' guys will CONTINUE to say they do until the customers just 'won't buy it anymore'!!

Real 'old-school' guys have always continued to use 'regular' wall-board, - - part of the reason being that they didn't trust the 'new-fangled' product 'claims' of 'greenboard' at the time, - - and guess what, - - they were RIGHT ALL ALONG!!

That's part of the reason, too, why the 'old-school' guys are still somewhat SKEPTICAL, - - 'especially' when their 'tile-on-wallboard' methods have lasted for decades, - - and most often 'right through' the 'short lifetimes' of many of the newer products that have had much more claim than climax!!


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

By the way, - - that 'rant' was not directed at you, Greg, - - your wording just gave me the excuse I needed to spew it!!

Obviously, - - I'm not big on products that have not stood the test of time, - - I still like 'copper' supplies, - - 'plywood' sheathing, - - 'hardwood' floors, - - etc.,etc.


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## Steve Unkie (Jan 21, 2006)

I have never used greenboard as a tile backer,always use concrete board or hardibacker. I don't think 'regular' wallboard meets code as a ceramic tile backer or as a wallcovering for showers, unless it is covered by a shower surround.
I've read reports that said that greenboard that had been stocked outdoors,uncoverd in rainy conditions,were tested with a moisture meter and had not been affected by the moisture. I am skeptical of this report, but I know that regular gypsum would be toast.

I have'nt had the pleasure to use DenShield yet but may have to give it a try sometime.

Steve Unkie.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

No argument there, - - do keep in mind, though, - - that your roof sheathing would also be 'toast' if stored (directly) exposed to the elements for some length of time, - - yet it works fine when the finish roof material is installed correctly.

I've torn apart tiled shower walls with 3/8" DRYWALL that were approx 35 years old and were still in DAY ONE condition, - - customers just wanted a 'fresh' look. Granted, - - WORKMANSHIP may have had something to do with it!!

The only way the drywall SHOULD fail, - - if done properly (on the interior), - - is if there is EXTERIOR leakage coming in. And in that case, - - it may actually turn out to be a BENEFIT to have such failure, - - and catch it in time before the said framing ROTS beyond repair.

Let me provide an analogy in another BATHROOM location, - - If you've ever seen a PROFESSIONAL 'caulk' a toilet/floor connection, - - you'll notice he'll caulk only the front and sides, - - not the back. 

If he were to caulk the back, also, - - would the seal be more WATERPROOF??, - - YES, DEFINITELY YES, - - but would that be more DESIRABLE??, - - NO, DEFINITELY NO.

That's because in the BIG PICTURE, - - it's actually cheaper to HAVE and CATCH the leak early on!!

Here's a note that may be worth NOTING, - - just last year I got called in to locate the source of a leak on a first floor ceiling/wall intersection of a two story colonial, - - they owned the house just a few years. 

Checked around some, - - got up on the roof, - - and couldn't miss that the fact that at some point, a roofer had CAULKED instead of FLASHED a second-story bathroom skylight!!

Apparently, it had been leaking for years, - - running down the roof, - - then down the insides of two shower walls, - - and finally (sometimes) making it's way all the way down to the first floor ceilings.

The bathroom (as far as they knew from the previous owners) had been done about 15 years prior. Nice job, - - CBU and tile.

OK, long (enough already) story short, - - I ended up having to reframe the whole back corner of the house to replace the completely rotted framing members, - - and yes, - - you've got it, - - therefore, completely gut and remodel the whole bathroom, too. 

Was the CBU waterproof, - - YES, DEFINITELY YES!!

Did that work to the customer's advantage??, - - NO, DEFINITELY NO!!


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Hey, elaborate on that. I went from cement board to Hardi backer and thought that was a big improvement!



DenShield is a gypsum-based board, much like conventional drywall, except that side you tile on has a rubber-like coating on it that is impervious to water penetration. It's made by G-P. 

It cut's like regular drywall, is lightweight, and requires no vapor barrier on the studs because it's impervious to water. I use Rock-On or Scorpion screws to hang it.

You can also use it on the floor as well.

Trust me...this stuff will change your life.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Tom R said:


> In actuality, - - 'old school' guys DON'T use greenboard in wet areas, - - but 'new-school' guys will CONTINUE to say they do until the customers just 'won't buy it anymore'!!
> 
> Real 'old-school' guys have always continued to use 'regular' wall-board, - - part of the reason being that they didn't trust the 'new-fangled' product 'claims' of 'greenboard' at the time, - - and guess what, - - they were RIGHT ALL ALONG!!
> 
> That's part of the reason, too, why the 'old-school' guys are still somewhat SKEPTICAL, - - 'especially' when their 'tile-on-wallboard' methods have lasted for decades, - - and most often 'right through' the 'short lifetimes' of many of the newer products that have had much more claim than climax!!



Now that saved me a s-load of typing:thumbsup: all these new products that all the saleman cream they're jeans over and they are gone with mountains of problems in not time.

Well said Tom:thumbup:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Greg Di said:


> DenShield is a gypsum-based board, much like conventional drywall, except that side you tile on has a rubber-like coating on it that is impervious to water penetration. It's made by G-P.
> 
> It cut's like regular drywall, is lightweight, and requires no vapor barrier on the studs because it's impervious to water. I use Rock-On or Scorpion screws to hang it.
> 
> ...


I'm going to have to try it out. I've seen the stuff but never used it yet, thanks Greg.


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Go to the G-P website to read all the info on it. There's a lot more I failed to mention.


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## player2watch (Sep 22, 2007)

desheild is the best tile backer out there. in my opinon. it dose not wicwater where cement board will. as far the ceiling in a shower and green board an stud spacing depends on 1/2 inch or if it 5/8 inch. they have humiteck board the purple board. it would do well for tat celing paint it with a good paint. a rumor for my drywall vendor that they going to stop making greenboad .


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## bonniem86 (Mar 17, 2008)

*Would you recommend dens shield or dens armor for a basement that's flooded?*

Client has a basement with a sump pump that's battery backed-up! Recent storm so heavy, battery wore down and water damaged entire basement. They want to redo and I've suggested either dens shield or dens armor ... any suggestions or feedback would be welcomed.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

bonniem86 said:


> Client has a basement with a sump pump that's battery backed-up! Recent storm so heavy, battery wore down and water damaged entire basement. They want to redo and I've suggested either dens shield or dens armor ... any suggestions or feedback would be welcomed.


Definately dens armor. It's unbeatable for mold.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

Teetorbilt said:


> We're using purple board here, anybody else?


Yes, that's the XP board. It's supose to replace green board because it's mold and mildew resistant. I hear they are going to put green paper on it instead of purple. I think they started already using a somewhat olive green where MR is still bright green. It still don't work like dens armor but it's a good alternative if you don't like the face of the board. Just make sure you're dealing with moisture and not flooding if you use it in a basement.


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## nwtile guy (Feb 13, 2008)

Denshield is good stuff and waterproof, but just remember hardi, wonderboard, durock, and the like are not waterproof. Water penetrates them just like it does to anything else. That is why I have a hard time believing that 35 year old sheetrock in a shower is as good as day one, but like you say it does have a little bit to do with what kind of tiles were used. As you also know, grout is also not waterproof, and greenboard is the worst thing there is out there for anything.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

nwtile guy said:


> Denshield is good stuff and waterproof, but just remember hardi, wonderboard, durock, and the like are not waterproof. Water penetrates them just like it does to anything else. That is why I have a hard time believing that 35 year old sheetrock in a shower is as good as day one, but like you say it does have a little bit to do with what kind of tiles were used. As you also know, grout is also not waterproof, and greenboard is the worst thing there is out there for anything.


When wonderboard first came out.The supply house i went to took a glass of water and silicon sealed it to wonderboard. They turned it upsidedown. It sat there for two years and did not lose any water. The tile guys i talk to request wonderboard and durock. They don't absorb water. I don't use hardi backer or dens sheild because none of my tile guys request it. But i learned everyone has a different opinion.


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## nwtile guy (Feb 13, 2008)

Water goes right through wonderboard and durock. I use the stuff all the time and that is why you are required to put a plastic sheeting behind it. It is just like unsealed concrete. Put a glass of water on that and see what happens. The concrete soaks it up. Cement board is water resistant not water proof. They are not affected by water but they definitely will allow water to pass through. Here is a quote directly from the manufacture's website: 
1/2" WonderBoard is unaffected by water but it is not
waterproof. If the area behind the backerboard must be
kept dry, a moisture barrier or waterproof membrane such
as RedGard® Waterproofing and Crack Prevention​Membrane must be used.

Not to say that either is bad to use, just have to understand its limitations. Hopefully that helps.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

You're could be right. The glass sat there for two years half full of water may be they filpped it,I don't know. But every tile guy has a preference. The majority request durock. What do you prefer and why? As a sheetrocker i get asked this alot and find i'm at the mercy of what the tile guy suggests. Most of them say durock is the best backer because they like working with it. That's not much to go on.


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## nwtile guy (Feb 13, 2008)

Duroc isn't bad, it is just not that easy to work with when compared to Denshield. I was skeptical at first with Denshield, but after do the homework on it, found it to be about as easy to install and work with as there is out there. The best thing is that it IS waterproof, cuts like drywall, and you don't need a vapor barrier behind it. As long as the drywall guys do not mud and tape the seams inside the shower, you are looking at minimal prep before tiling. I mud and tape the seams with thinset, and then go back and waterproof all the nail holes and seems with a product called Hydroban made by Laticrete. It works great!


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

We just install,we won't mud and tape. We got to know the tile guys that the different contractors use and hang what they prefer. The reason i asked is the contractors ask what's better. What's easy for me isn't always better. Thanks for the answer because i can give them an honest responce. Hanging any of these products are easy enough. I just want a problem free job. Also i won't nail through the rubber pans. I just cut and mark them for the tile guys. Now the fiberglass liners are different.


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## kgphoto (May 9, 2006)

Greg Di said:


> USG has pulled its certification for green board as tile backer in wet areas. Look it up. So many guys continue to ignore this fact.
> 
> Old school guys will continue to use greenboard until they can't buy it anymore. The more progressive guys have long ditched it.
> 
> ...


Greg,

How do you treat seams, corners and fasteners? What would you change if you were doing a steam shower?

I have heard of mesh tape and thinset on the seams, but thinset is not water nor vapor proof.


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## Lionheart27 (Nov 27, 2008)

*Drywall board types*

Use blue or Humitex type drywall for moisture buildup areas that may mold and Denshield GOLD as a tile backer. This will insure no problems in the future and jobs coming back to bite you again. Why risk it to save a few bucks. This senario of going the cheap way is usually evident in filpper homes.

There are great shower products out there too which are cheap and effective. Do your homework and hire a professional. thats what we're here for.:thumbup:


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## Adam in BC (Aug 28, 2008)

Greg Di said:


> USG has pulled its certification for green board as tile backer in wet areas. Look it up. So many guys continue to ignore this fact.
> 
> Old school guys will continue to use greenboard until they can't buy it anymore. The more progressive guys have long ditched it.
> 
> ...


 
ever tried aquatough? I consider it an upgrade on dense shield , although its almost as hard to work with as hardibacker 

heres a link http://www.usg.com/navigate.do?reso...ck_Brand_Aqua-Tough_Tile_Backerboard-Page.htm


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## Aaron111 (Nov 24, 2007)

*wouldn't lap much, or the grout will work loose*



Glasshousebltr said:


> First: I wouldn't lap much, or the grout will work loose at the area under the drywall.
> 
> Second: It's best to use plastic.
> 
> ...


I agree above plastic works best for that job lol


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

Guys - the question was asked in February of *2006* & I doubt he will be back (only 3 Posts)

I hope he has it completed it by now or his wife made him hire a real contractor. Besides is green board still around?


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