# 650' from transformer



## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

I'm looking into quoting a new build. The builder is requesting a 200 amp service underground. The pocos pole is 650' away. Anyone here ever done a job similar and what was the most cost effective way? I haven't contacted the pocos planner to find out what they would charge for the work but I would guess it's astronomical. There are no unusual loads in the house plans and I haven't figured the vd yet. Still in the preliminary stages of the quote. Who knows, maybe after he finds out what the wire will cost he'll move the house closer to the road.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Location is the big factor once again.

You need to find out what the POCO provides are far as primary. You will be using primary for more than half of this run so you need to find a suitable location for the transformer.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

I think he's saying the pole mounted transformer is 650' from the service of this house.
Don't quote me on this but I don't think theyll charge anything to connect a new customer.
All you need is your PVC in the ground, here the power co requires a 3 inch now, and they may require rigid 90's because of the length, they'll also require a pull string in your pipe. From there they should do the rest, but of course check with them first.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Think about it. If the xfmr is 650' away, what size secondary would he need???


In most cases the POCO will provide +/- 200' into a property. After that it is H-O responsibility.
In my area ANY/ALL underground is customer responsibility.


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## aiea (May 10, 2006)

*jay*

Wow thats a long run!!
you probably would want to find out how far or were is the customer 
property line and the city. and who's responsible for digging or trenching before you even give a quote. also you might be required to
install 2x4 pull boxes for the long run. and like the others said 3" pvc's.

good luck!!


by the way,
did anyone wire a metal frame residential house??
what is the best and fastest way to fasten romex to metal studs??


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

So Pete are you saying the customer has to pull the wire up to the xfmr? 
I would just pull 3/0 because it is protected by 200 amps and you'll never get the voltage drop from a house (60 amp max). PoCo will probably pull 1/0 aluminum.

About the steel studs, just use MC, no complications there, works like romex in wood.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Sparky Joe said:


> So Pete are you saying the customer has to pull the wire up to the xfmr?


Absolutely. I do all the time. We have to buy the pad and run all underground conduits and cables. Primary and secondary. At the pole w stub up a 10' stick and leave anough to reach the top of the pole.
My POCO does not want secondary over 250'. Up to ~350' we go primary or 250mcmAL. Over that only primary.
I have done residential services well over 1000' long and never had to install pull boxes or stub ups. 



Sparky Joe said:


> I would just pull 3/0 because it is protected by 200 amps and you'll never get the voltage drop from a house (60 amp max).


HUH???? 
Not around here you wouldn't.
You would figure VD accoring to the demand load. Where are you getting 60 amps from???




Sparky Joe said:


> PoCo will probably pull 1/0 aluminum.


NO, the POCO would NOT pull 1/0, we're not talking "free air" y'know.



The question was what to do with NM and steel.
Just use NM straps and 4"sq boxes with mud rings. Be sure to use stud bushings in EVERY hole. DO NOT miss even one bushing or you'll be very sorry later.
Also, get you a stud punch. Way quicker and easier than hole sawing for the spots you need your own holes.


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## jbfan (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm glad I live where I do. Here the poco runs everything to the mast, or to the meter underground. The customer will pay for the difference and whatever allowance the poco gives. 

Last one I did, poco run overhead to temp pole. When finished, they took it underground from there to the meter. No charge to customer, because house was total electric.


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## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

Thanks for the replys. After kickin this one around I've decided to pass on quoting this. I lack the equipment and manpower to tackle this job being a one man operation. Anyone here interested in bidding this? It's in Western New York, Erie County. If so, pm me and I'll give you the contact info.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Well ATS, you are across the BIG yard from me. With today's fuel prices I don't think it's worth the 300 mile trip. :w00t:

Sorry you can't make it work.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Wow, I get the feeling someone doesn't like me around here???

So what is the demand load on a satndard house about 3000 sq' with electric range and dryer, and gas furnace and water heater? I've never seen a house with 200 amp service draw more than 60 amps.

And never seen a power company pull anything other than aluminum, and really doubt theyre gonna pull 250 mcm to a stinkin house just because it has a woppin 200 amp service.

Oh and good advice on the "way quicker" part about using Romex versus MC. Just finished a 7200 sq' tenant finish rough, took about 2 days w/ 2 guys and drilled about 3 holes in the steel studs.

Okay, your turn, tear me a new one.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

It's not a matter of "like" Joe. It's a matter of you giving advice I think is out of your realm.

No, not a "whopping" 200 amp service. A whopping 650' service, regardless of amperage. 
I don't care what you've seen or what the average house draws. Of course, the average house, on an average day, will not draw much more than 60-70 amps. But it can and does draw more, for more than 3 hours. What you "think" or assume a load will be holds no water. What the demand load is does. 

If your poco does not compensate for long secondary services I'd hate to see what other corners they cut.
It is completely ludicrous to suggest a 650' long 200 amp secondary service with 4/0al. Period. 



Yes, way quicker. A stud punch is a very handy tool when working with metal studs. You need to make quite a few holes above switch boxes in my experience. Along with many other places. The punch is much quicker, cleaner and safer than a hole saw.


7200'/sq, 2 guys, 2 days, metal studs???????
No comment, other than I'd hate to see the workmanship on that job,...unless the 2 days were 14 hours each.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

BTW - The demand load on your typical house above is over 100 amps.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

I knew it, it makes me laugh to hear the response; nothing informative, just all argumentative.
Oh and BTW workmanship is top notch, as any union electricians work would be, thats the reason why I am one of the 2 guys, perhaps the "Speedy Petey" is not due to work habits, but rather a pet name from your wife. Hahaha


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

BTW the stud punches I've used require at least 18 inches of space above the stud you are trying to punch, never seen a steel framed house, and hope I don't, but in the houses I have seen the walls go all the way to the ceiling.
And though it is a bit of a disgrace to us, you should see how fast and efficient union hands can rope a house. 2 summers ago, 4 guys 1 floor(4 1200 sq' foot units) / day.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Now we are getting into dislike. I highly suggest you drop the personal jabs and stick to the topic at hand little man. 
And please put down the union flag. You have been waving that rag around since the first post you made here. Listen, I have seen as many, or more, hacks from the union as not. IMO your precious union does not have the stellar reputation as you would like to believe. Laziness, non-production, poor work habits, organized crime (YES, I absolutely did say that), are all very real in the "union". So please leave the megaphone at the hall.



*"nothing informative, just all argumentative."

*What more can I inform you of.I've stated several times what my area requires, as do most other areas in the country. I've also given you facts and numbers. You have given us assumptions.


Are you even a contractor, or a worker?
Do you even do residential, other than your quickie 7200' house?
Where do you live? 
What was the last underground service you did? 
How long was it?
Do you even know your POCO's requirements for services, other than what you ASSUME?


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## hanapaa (May 12, 2006)

*Elecrician*

Howzit everyone!


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## hanapaa (May 12, 2006)

I was reading some recommendation
On metal wiring. Can anyone tell me
How or what do you recommend the best
Way to make holes at the corners of the
Wall's to run your wires through especially
When the studs are triple or double stacked together at both walls. Please don't tell me to go up and over unless it's
The only way.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

I'm only an apprentice.

Did resi. remodels in CA for 2 years, non-union 3 man shop in the valley, sink or swim sort of deal. No schooling, no benefits, low pay, poor working conditions.

Now live in SLC with lu354, we rarely do residential unless a company owner is building a new multi million dollar house, or 'Extreme Makeover' is in town requesting union work only. And the 7200' was a 'tenant finish' which means commercial office space(or whatever the tenant wants) within an existing shell of a building.

Last underground was in the building I just did the tenant finish for. 2000A 480V to the building owner 180,000sq'(which we were the only ones to finish "on time and under budget"), 800A 480V to the tenant space, and 200A 480V for the fire pump. Which the fire pump still bothers my teacher(who is the biggest code nazi in the state, maybe even further) about the code discrepancy for the can rating(perhaps you've seen his posts in the 'code question of the day' discussion forum, Beckstrand is his name). We put in a 200A meter base, inspector(who is also an old union hand and union teacher, and compliments our workmanship consistently) had us, me and the foreman, put in an 800A rated ct can, due to locked rotor current of the 100hp fire pump.

The 3 services were about 40 feet from the utility xfrmr on the customers lot. I didn't look to see what the union boys with the utility company were pulling in for the services, but on the previous job, last fall for Roadway trucking(talk about organized crime, 'teamsters'), we installed a generator on an existing 400A service, which was run in parallel 500mcm due to the electrical room being over 500 feet away from the service(don't know why they went so big actually). The utility company contractors came in to pull their wire to our newly built service. For the 400A hook up which was easily 600 feet away from their transformer they pulled parallel 250mcm aluminum.

And my Dad is a professional engineer in charge of the metering department for the local utility, Pacific Corp., so naturally he always gives me the most recent 'electric utility service requirement' handbook. And of course when the linemen show up all you have to say is "union", and then you're all talking to each other like long lost "brothers" which is something I never saw happen on the non-union side due to the "rats"(non-union contractors) making our hard work into a struggle because they'll very willingly hire some moron just because they'll do the job for 5 bucks an hour less.

I have no idea what you have against unions anyway, other than the things you mentioned above which don't directly affect you and your work?
'So what', if I mention this so called "ungodly" word "union" in any post that I'm free to reply to?


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Oh and 'hanapaa' post a new thread.
I have now idea what you're talking about "metal wiring"?


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## hanapaa (May 12, 2006)

*electrician*

Oh sorry, I was referring to the earlier
Conversation on metal stud wiring. I just
Was wondering if I should drill the corners
Or plasma cutting. Just trying to find out
Other opionion or expertise in wiring metal stud housing.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

plasma cut? are you talking about standard 20 gauge steel studs? Don't mean to sound rude, but just use a little 'get it done' attitude and figure it out. Drill holes at the same height from both sides and fish it through I guess. Would have to see it of course, if its structural steel you can't drill it, you have to go around. Would hate to see you get in that mess of replacing something structural out of your pocket.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Ahhhh. Joe, your post (#19) explains A LOT.
I stand even more firmly that you are out of your element and should not make replies about things you have not had experience with nor have been schooled in. Such as long residential services in non-city environments.

Ok, the union can be a good thing for folks, especially in a city setting since there is not much else available. ALSO, you CANNOT compare Cali to the rest of the country. California is another world with respect to many things. Construction being one of them.

Also, you can tout your love afair with the union all you want. Sorry but I will NEVER agree with you. That's fine, I don't have to agree. 
I have had my own experiences and been exposed to many things myself in almost 20 years. 
How about things like being politely but directly threatened by a union business agent in NYC. How about the fact that hundreds of workers are out on unemployment while 10 or 15 "business agents" are happily driving around in suits making $150k for doing NOTHING. How about the fact I have heard direct accounts of guys standing around doing nothing for 3 hours waiting for the drywall guy to move a piece of sheetrock. A loose piece, not installed. He was told this is what he was told to do so wait unitl it is accessible. If the electrician simply moved the piece 6' out of his way to get at the ONE receptacle he needed to install he would have been fined.
How about the fact that the average union worker makes nearly double what a non-union guy makes, to do the SAME JOB. This is OK since the union strong arms their way into contracts with threats and intimidation. They try to make certain areas "union territory" by forcing out any non-union contractors by any means necessary. See my sentence about being threatened.
How about the fact you need to make double because historically you only work 6-8 months out of the year. And don't get caught doing side work, the "boys" don't like that.

No one in their right mind would hire a contractor for almost double the price unless they were forced to.

Don't forget Joe, the union (thankfully) does not have a large presence outside the cities any more. So not too many folks can relate, and to suggest someone hire a union contractor for residential work is not feasible in most places. Even for commercial work in many areas as well.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

hanapaa, metal studs are a PIA but you can still basically treat them like wood. Drill where you need to, use stock holes where at all possible. 
A plasma cutter is a wonderful thing, but be very careful. IMO they do not have as much use to us as they do to plumbers.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Speedy is right. In the union you are working for the union first, then the company. That is why you pay dues. You need to pay for those people that MISrepresent YOU. They care first about filling thier pockets. How many cases have thier been where the union big-wigs go on to management in the firms they were in negotiation with? The union is not for the worker anymore, it is for itself, which consists of its management. But hey, keep payin those dues. Sometimes all the other BS that goes along with a MINISCULE amount of money per hour is not worth it, especially when some don't work for 4-6 months a year. But, hey, you still gotta pay your dues. What poor working conditions where you refering to in your above post? Did you actually have to work 8 to get paid for 8? That is one good thing for those that are not union. All the money they bring home is thiers, minus a bit for uncle same, they don't owe anyone anything. Unions are corrupt. What is with the illegals getting in and giving kickbacks to the BA, other management and the contractor. THey get paid for 32, work 50, then give $10 an hour back to the management of the union and the contractor. Good thing they are in the union so they can take the spot of someone who is a BROTHER.

Speedy, you are also correct on the side job issue. TRUE union hands won't touch side work. SPARKY how's the hot tub going? If the union is so good, why are you installing a hot tub for someone. You should not need to do side work, or even want to. Go play golf or something. That is a ton of liability. Hope nothing goes wrong and they find the contractor and union you work for....LAWSUIT. But even non-union contractors do not allow thier guys to do side work. 

Joe, why do you care so much if someone is NOT union. If you really cared about the union, and believed in it, you would be recruiting. This is what makes it stronger, not beating some guy up on the internet about union/non-union issues. Are you threatened by someone on the other side of the country who is not in the "POLITICAL" organization you are? Who cares? EVERYONE has the right to work reguardless of thier Union non-union status. That is what make America great, right?


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## hanapaa (May 12, 2006)

*electrician*

Hey, 
Thanks for everyones input on metal stud rough-in.

I look at the situation this way. I'm not in the union and always
learned from private contractors. I've seen alot of electricians non-union and union should I say "craftsmanship" in roughin and trimming 
out both residential / comercial jobs while working side by side with them and I think it boils down to that particular person work habits and how they were taught when they were an apprentice. There's contractors that bust ass and neat and there's some lazy and and must I say spider web when running romex
or if their doing commercial job their piping has either lot of coupling
between offsets or kinks in their bends. Thanks everyone for their opinion.


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## JAL (May 3, 2006)

When in comes to unions I have some sympathy for unionized workers because they are caught up in a system that is obsolete in the present. The federal and state governments have taken on almost all of the causes of the unions and have enacted legislation that duplicates what the unions stood for in the early days. All that is left of the unions is the "brother and sister" network, corruption and strong-arm tactics.

BTW If someone wants to carryon about the federal and state governments, start another thread will-ya.


Nonunion or Union
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## [email protected]&R (Jul 26, 2005)

GO UNION Oh wait thats right their the ones that came in and flattened all 4 of my van tires when I was working in Phili, PA then hooked up 100 lights on another job so that when the foreman hit the breakers it looked like the forth of July (nice trick BTW) then sat outside with picket signs. All in all nice guys helped me get lots of overtime. They were nice enough to offer for me to join though. After 8 years in the trade I had to start all over with a $10 an hour pay cut back to $7 as an apprentice and only pay them something like $50 a month for the oppertunity to maybe work a few months out of a year. Seemed like an offer almost to good to be true. :whistling


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

It seems Joe lost interest in this thread. :whistling


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Sorry to leave you guys hangin, but was on vacation over the weekend. I wish you guys could hear eachother "the Ba's only care about lining their pockets and not the workers" while Pete is saying "union guys make double what non-union make", oh and another thing about being out recruiting, well here I am, and Pete is helping, yes we do make double and that's just on the check, while your sorry sucker romex pullers get too old to keep up with the kids they find themselves greeting illegals at the local wal-mart, our union guys look forward to retiremenet because they'll be making more money than they ever were working because the kids like me, and the contractors, are paying for their golden years.

And by the way to clear any missconception, 80% of my dues goes into a fund for my retirement and its not a fund controlled by your so called 'crooked' BAs nor by your 'praised' government, but by me. I have my money in a very good fund right now(30% last qtr) not to mention the other stocks and mutual funds which I am invested in personnally due to my exceptional wages.

And 8 for 8 is what I work now unless it runs longer than 8 and it becomes 1 and 1/2 even if that was the only day I worked all week, whereas before, work 7am-10pm and get the decency and not having to come in till 9 the next day, all for straight time, why because that's all the so called 'union abiding' government required. And I hope all your employees know that its good old George W that is looking out for them and their families and not you.

4-6 months out of work, lets see now is it any mystery why someone would be out of work for that long, perhaps these are the types of workers that you associate with. Whats the bigger mystery is why these guys stay with it when their trade is basically telling them they're not good enough, perhaps no work anywhere else? Or perhaps they're just the 5% of our country that choose to be unemployed, again, acquaintances of yours? As for me and the guys that I've worked with have never been out of work and this is coming from a city that just hosted an olympics and the economy is barely getting back to normal. As for the side work; the former BA is with my company now and told me he thinks its good experience and the union needs more contractors, and that paying my helper who is also an apprentice 20 bucks an hour is too little(due to retirements and benefits), though I still made good money. And the hot tub was my helpers job which we are waiting on the tub, and trust me neither of us would 'scab' in work. I e-mailed him the post as a matter of fact and Pete would love to see his reply. About the sheetrock fiasco OMG does that mean the contractor just lost .001% of his profit for that job, wow how ever will he survive. Obviously because you said they'd get fined what was the worker supposed to do in that situation? Good thing you live in a right to work state, go to Oregon and see how things are done(worked union there UFCW), or better yet see how much money you could make, even the sprinkler guys count on you to pull their wire no matter the cost, but yet are people poor or poverty stricken there? Not like here in SLC highest bunkruptcy(and most millionaires per capita) in the nation, but yet we all stand strong behind George W, your hero for making things the way they oughta be. I'm not even sure which point to hit on next, feel that I haven't hit on any of them quite enough, It's nice when bombardment makes you feel right, and better yet, teams, too bad the other 3 IBEW members I've seen in here can't stand up??? and too bad for that one kid who looked at the IBEW to do his apprenticeship that they had too many people already in line for their sweet deal. And Ken it doesn't take a brain surgeon to know you don't cross picket lines.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Joe, I can tell you from my experience and others, when something is to good to be true it proably is. Look at all the recent lost pensions. Airlines are a good example. Alot of those folks, many already retired, have had a dramatic decrease in thier monthly benefits. 

I don't want to come across as a jerk, but there is always trade offs. You may think you have it better than someone else, but they think they are better off than you. Who is right? Both of you. It doesn't matter if someone is non-Union, frankly, they (everyone on this board) are not in competition with you for your job.

About the dues-pensions, I personally do not like people telling me what to do with my money. I don't trust the government either. Most pensions and social security are a legalized pyramid scheme.

So, good for you being in the Union apprenticeship program. Hey, everyone else, good for you too, I hope you enjoy your job as much as I do. I would prefer if we could just stick to helping eachother out, not debating whether non-Union people have a right to live, or whether Union guys make too much.

Oh, and by the way, no one in my area uses romex. All pipe, all the time. Just the way I like it.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Hey Joe, no bombardment here, just agreement. Sorry if that hurts you.

I could take several of your points and give you valid counter-points, but I don't have the time right now, nor do I feel like it. I agree this is getting out of hand. This is exactly why many contractor sites, especially Mike Holt's, does NOT allow union/non-union talk. It only make for enemies. And common tradesmen cannot even have a civil conversation.

I will make a point about the out of work situation. The ONLY guys I see working all year are cronies, relatives and close friends of union contractors. Them and BA's. The regular guy gets his ass sent home a few months out of the year. It has nothing to do with who we asociate with. You can convince yourself you are better than everybody else, while in reality you are simply someone's bi*.........cousin. That's all.

And the sheetrock issue. It's not that he shouldn't have moved it because he would have been fined. It's that he actually would have been fined. What is this, Communist Russia????

It's nice that you think your area is not corrupt and is full of upstanding guys. I think a lot of the reast of the country is a bit different.

Hey, send me a copy of your bud's reply to your e-mail. I could use the laugh!

BTW- Don't lump all of us into the same category. And DO NOT get me started about G. Dumbya Bush. He is _*NO*_ friend of mine!!!!!


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

My recent experience with a union electrician:

On a jobsite, I tired to plug in my heat gun. Went to run an extension cord from the box to where I was working at. Got chewed out because I was taking the electricians work from him. What a joke. Guess what I told him to kiss.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

ProWallGuy said:


> ......taking the electricians work from him.


PWG, that is the classic "brotherhood" reply to most things. 
Same goes for other trades. See my "moving the piece of sheetrock" story. 
What a joke!


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Well like you said 'there are no gaurantees' in life, that's why I invest elsewhere also, by the way you oughta put some money in those airlines, they'll come back. And is some retirement better than none at all? I'm curious of what you provide?
About who is right and wrong it all depends on what you want and the knowledge you possess of those things, hence this argument. And I really would like people to be in competition for my job, afterall that is how capitalism works, not communism.
And of course I obviously enjoy my job too, but to tell you the truth; I only do it for the money. Which again is why I'm continuing this thread, because the more organized work there is means more money for all of us.

The only part that hurts about this is, where are my brothers?
If calling my cousin a b**ch was about the romex post, you might want avoid 'a**'uming things. He bought the romex so I could move his panel so he could build a larger bathroom.
About the sheetrock thing, that's not a dictatorship, but rather a big money job(or non-right to work state) where the owners pay a lot of money for things to be done right, which means electricians don't 'touch' sheetrock and sheetrockers don't 'touch' wiring, and believe it or not there is also and insurance liabilty issue there too. A good rule of thumb; when something doesn't make sense, look for where there is money to be made in the situation. I'm glad we can all stand united about this a-hole president though.
Oh and here's the mail, it was from my post about the hot tub;
_
Finally got around to reading your thread. I guess I'm just cautious when it comes to side jobs cause I just know I'm gonna **** one up some day and get sued. That's why I hate 'em so much. If you're interested in doing that work, though, I'll give that guy a call and see if he still wants it done. Good info on that site. What's up with that motorcycle guy? "I'm surprised you even asked." Snotty cock smoker anyway!
-Ster_


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Sorry, that cousin thing did not come out the way it was intended. 
I was trying express saying a bad word, then catching myself and saying "cousin" instead. 
I need to work on my sarcasm in text form.:jester:


Oh and BTW, I smoke the occasional cigar. Not much else.


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