# Big Problem With High End Client



## Clarke Carpentry (Apr 22, 2011)

Sounds like most of the criticism is warranted but I think some of the comments might be a little harsh.

If he's being up front with the customer that he got in over his head and gets in there and finishes the job he can use this as a good lesson and not make these mistakes again. As far as charging any more money, I think that's up to the client. If at the end of the job they decide it's fair to pay you more then I don't see anything wrong with that. At the same time, if you make the mistake then you can't complain about eating the costs.

Everyone screws up at some point. It's what you do about it that determines what kind of person you are. This guy might learn from this and go on to be a great GC. He might also be better off working at HD. 

It's easy to call him an idiot and a chancer, but I think really he needs advice. I would schedule a meeting with your client and go over exactly where things have gone wrong and what you intend to do, realistically, to get this thing done. Most people will appreciate the honesty and just want to know where things stand.

Edit just to say that this does sound like a giant cluster****, from reading your clients letter you're very very VERY lucky that this guy sounds so reasonable.


----------



## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

GeorgyD said:


> I don't do tile.


That letter from the homeowner was very fair. VERY fair and your response is I don't do tile? AT FOUR months HOW much tile is left to do first of all?

Second, there is NO magic wand. There is A LOT of things I don't like to do or I didn't KNOW how to do but I LEARNED them and am LEARNING every day.

I really would like to know where all the previous money went to put you into the situation that you can not hire a GOOD Tile guy or be able to BUY the tools to do it yourself?


----------



## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

You guys who are saying some of our comments are too harsh need to put your big boy pants on.

This guy (aka contractor) is in way over his head. He needs to be spanked big time, way more than he's gotten here.

The dollars involved here make what's happened a crime - figuratively and literally! 

From the sounds of the customers letter, the OP is dealing with a pretty reasonable guy. He better kiss the ground this customer walks on & thank his lucky stars! And forget about any more $$.....


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Clarke Carpentry said:


> Sounds like most of the criticism is warranted but I think some of the comments might be a little harsh.
> 
> If he's being up front with the customer that he got in over his head and gets in there and finishes the job he can use this as a good lesson and not make these mistakes again. As far as charging any more money, I think that's up to the client. If at the end of the job they decide it's fair to pay you more then I don't see anything wrong with that. At the same time, if you make the mistake then you can't complain about eating the costs.
> 
> ...


You have a valid point but it isn't too harsh at all...the guy is in over his head, has a reasonable client and now that the client isn't about to cut him a cheque he decides instead of working his ass off to finish the job his attitude is "what can I do? I don't do tile".

Sorry but that attitude is not fit for the construction or contracting industry. Go get a job.


----------



## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> You can haul your two-bit ass in there and help him finish the freaking job. Can't do tile? Then clean buckets and mix thin-set...at least make it look like you are doing something.


Exactly.

Get the damn thing done. Where's your sense of urgency, both in terms of time, the initial budget, and doing the right, honorable thing now?? You screwed up. Now you finish it, eat the lost commission/mark-up, whatever, and move on. The $$ issue is not the client's fault, but all yours for letting the subs milk the hell out if it...and you let it happen?? How often did you check on the work, etc., and did you just listen to stories about how "hard" and "time-consuming" the job was because this and that....with the clock ticking all the while. 

Their letter might look "harsh", but what do you expect?? Put yourself in their shoes (and assume money is valuable to them like everyone else - the 1.4 M home is 100% irrelevant). They actually took the time to write a well-thought out letter because they are stuck. Get them unstuck with dignity. Man up. Sure, they could throw you out and hire someone else to finish, but letting that happen after burning all that cash would be pathetic.


----------



## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

4 months and 30k over budget- on a bathroom. The customer must be Job to be so patient as to not have thrown you out and sold your tools.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Obviously, the O.P. made some bad mistakes and got in over his head, and he needs primarily to finish the job out and give up any idea of making a profit on the job. He got himself into this situation.

But... I have a different take on the customer and the customer's letter: "Once the job is complete, I'll consider paying." and "Then we can talk about whether there's anymore money." No matter how the situation got to where it is, those are the words of an owner planning to stick it to the contractor. If the owner didn't do his due diligence, but still signed a T&M contract with the original poster, and then messed around with a a designer, etc., etc., then some of the responsibility for this situation is the customer's. Or maybe the owner was knowledgeable, knew that the contractor was in over his head and had underestimated the job, and planned to take advantage of that. I don't know, but that "Once the job is complete, I'll consider paying," really leaps off the page at me.

So, I'm not so certain that the customer doesn't have a part in this.

It's going to end badly - that's a given. The O.P. needs to have a plan for it to end badly on a certain date, with a certain scope of work complete, a certain exact list of details and finishes done, and an exact payment situation resolved (even if it means getting paid nothing). It would be best to get an agreement with the owner on exactly how and when it will end.

Bad situation, and I think it's possible there's plenty of blame on both sides.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

As far as the cost goes, we just don't know. I quoted a $150K bath last year, without a lot of fat in it. I didn't get the job, but that's what it would have taken.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> As far as the cost goes, we just don't know. I quoted a $150K bath last year, without a lot of fat in it. I didn't get the job, but that's what it would have taken.


True..but you didn't quote it at $100 to get the job then go back to the well.

The email is worded funny but look at it from the client's perspective...I would have pulled the carpet out from under the contractor far sooner...but this guy decided to just keep cutting cheques.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

No question, the O.P. messed up badly and there will be consequences that he deserves.

I get calls to clean up these situations. In rare cases the owner was simply exploited, but far more often in my experience the owner had a part in it, by accepting a bid that he or she knew was 50% under the legitimate bid, from someone with obvious licensing and insurance problems. These are mainly wealthy, educated people with ready access to good advice. Part of the resolution is to tell them that no matter what the contract says, they can't expect to get $100K of work for $50K.

This situation has been on my mind recently. We've been watching two projects near one of ours, wondering when the stuff would hit the fan. I got the calls yesterday, and visit the owners tomorrow. One of the questions, to be posed tactfully, is "Why did you hire a guy you knew couldn't do the job?"


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> True..but you didn't quote it at $100 to get the job then go back to the well.


True dat. I never go back to the well.


----------



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

CarpenterSFO said:


> True dat. I never go back to the well.


I'm more curious as to what the hell he is paying this sub?
4 months...16 weeks..60,000 paid and no money left?


----------



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

Anyone else having difficulty responding to posts?
I can only make replies through" post quick reply" button.
not the reply on the posts..Just got a new computer with windows 8 and wondering is something wacky goin on..dot have any issues on any other sites/forums FB etc.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

jamestrd said:


> Anyone else having difficulty responding to posts?
> I can only make replies through" post quick reply" button.
> not the reply on the posts..Just got a new computer with windows 8 and wondering is something wacky goin on..dot have any issues on any other sites/forums FB etc.


You are not the only one...whole place is snafu.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Maybe I am a bit naive but when the customer said, "I'll consider paying when the job is done," I take it to mean that he knows that's he's stuck in a catch-22 if he agrees or promises to pay a certain amount of money right now.

The customer probably thinks that if he promises to pay an amount that's too little, the contractor is going to abandon the job. Yet if he promises too pay the contractor's expected amount.. or more, it might entice the contractor to cut corners just to get to the table.

Not that it's excusable to take 3 times longer but it's something about the result of the finished product that makes everyone quickly forget how bad the job went.. especially if it's done right and you don't have any callbacks.


----------



## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Very interesting thread here, and some VERY good advice (from Jaws, Warren, CarpenterSFO, Etc)

This job is obviously off the rails, but why is harder to determine.

For starters, I don't really like the way you started out talking about how wealthy the client is, and what his house was worth. What difference does that make? His money is his money, the only money you get is for actual services rendered to the client. Period. He's not your cash cow.

Secondly, if there is alot of really high end fixtures and materials in there, I could see it being a little pricey. But it seems that the 62k (or 53k), only covers framing, windows and drywall. And maybe radiant heat. Tile, lighting, and fixtures not included. Where is the steam shower in all this?

Third, A job goes south like this primarily because of poor or no management. It is why I will no longer work as a sub for HO's, while they play GC. General Contracting (well) requires a tremendous amount of management skill, and it seems that you either did not exercise it, or do not have the skill. What were you doing for four months, while the job was going sideways? Are you _and_ the sub milking the client, because you think he's wealthy? 

It is also quite possible that the client had a hand in this job going sideways, with his side dealings with the designer, bringing in his own materials, etc., etc. Once again, this is where management comes in. If the HO is blowing the schedule and budget all to hell adding things, then it's your job as the GC to sit down and discuss this with him. That's what you're getting paid to do.

Fourth, what did you contribute to this job, exactly, tradewise? Just drywall?


----------



## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I forgot to ask, and I hope this is not too personal of a question, but, are you Licensed as a General, or just as a Drywall Contractor?


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

A.T.C. said:


> Once again, this is where management comes in. If the HO is blowing the schedule and budget all to hell adding things, then it's your job as the GC to sit down and discuss this with him. That's what you're getting paid to do.


Well said, all of it, but particularly that part.:thumbsup:.
Edit: No matter all the excuses, there's no reason to get to the end of the money and then have it all come apart. The situation needed managing from the get-go.


----------



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Well said, all of it, but particularly that part.:thumbsup:.
> Edit: No matter all the excuses, there's no reason to get to the end of the money and then have it all come apart. The situation needed managing from the get-go.


Back to the pay of the sub..If the job did go well and on track.at the claims made, this sub, along with his mark were getting 4000 a week.
So this would have been 16000 on the month...theres another 44000 unaccounted for..this would have been his take?


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

jamestrd said:


> Back to the pay of the sub..If the job did go well and on track.at the claims made, this sub, along with his mark were getting 4000 a week.
> So this would have been 16000 on the month...theres another 44000 unaccounted for..this would have been his take?


That's for studs and drywall.


----------



## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> That's for studs and drywall.


Now that's the kind of job I need to land. I'd even do drywall for that kind of $


----------



## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

When T&M goes bad at any stage, it seldom ends well. I tried it once, never again


----------



## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> When T&M goes bad at any stage, it seldom ends well. I tried it once, never again


Same here- went WAY over budget, mostly due to changes but HO's never understand that. I'd never do it again.


----------



## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

He said it was bid cost plus, not including fixtures or tile. Unless there was alot of relocating of fixtures over and over again, where did the money go ? You can have a cost plus job suddenly go 50% over and surprise the client, they must have had a huge communication gap or Eldon the painter ( from Murphy Brown ) was doing the work. I think the homeowner was very calm and patient, most would have blown a gasket at this point.

The OP said 4 weeks and had to have known full well that was impossible. Thats 15k a week, which can pay for a lot of labor.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

This situation is when it is nice to have the skill set to complete most tasks yourself. 

I screwed up big time on my first major remodel ( cost plus) (big time to me, small screw up in the OPs situation), didnt include demo of a slab and sidewalks in my estimate, small slab, but included in the scope. I jack hammered and ho-rammed and hauled concrete, cut rebar and removed grade for 5 days. For free. My hands like to bled. But my project hit its price point. 

Many times I have finished after firing a sub or when I was short handed to keep a project on track. 

Im not saying this to be a jerk, or say im better than you. Im saying, that when a guy starts in a ditch and works his way to a clip board, he knows what it is going on. A lot to be said for starting at the bottom, it gives you something to not want to go back to....

A lot to be said for finding a mentor. I don't know what I'd be doing with out mine. 

There is a reason most good GCs have an iron hand shake that could shale the edges off of brick. Those scars and calluses are marks of knowledge and experience. Same can be said for a fifty year old laborer who never got it. My point is, this isnt a business you just fall into overnight.


----------



## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Well said John :thumbsup:

The OP is trying to figure this out and has been very polite so far.

So George, spill out more details so we can help you. So far it sounds like you pulled a number without seeing all the details, trusted a moron to get it done for you, did no site visits, and more.

Many things are NOT adding up here to us as you can see by the comments. (Including the pricing, scheduling, involvement of the "designer", the amount of change orders and how you handled them, and most importantly how you established your quote.

A good GC has a handle on the hundreds of details that come up on every project and the ones who have been around the block a couple or 100 times can pretty much predict how any project will end up.

If you're new at this, then you need to step back and learn how it works and not take on any more projects until you learn the ropes. None of us were born with this and anyone here who says they never took any hard knocks is a liar.

The pricing and scheduling severity is what probably has most of us scratching our heads the most.

If you care to elaborate, it's fine but keep in mind that the forum is in no way a fiduciary arrangement and will be visible to anyone with an internet connection.

But we'd love to hear some details. Good Luck.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

A.T.C. said:


> I don't really like the way you started out talking about how wealthy the client is, and what his house was worth. What difference does that make?


I dunno. For me, that particular set of details helped to paint a more accurate picture of what the OP is dealing with. 

You are right in that the customer's money is his money regardless of what he has, what he spends, etc. but generally speaking, people with deep pockets like to use their position to bully everyone else into having their own way.

This might have been one of those jobs that the OP should have refused at the time of the estimate. We've all been there before. At one time or another we found ourselves in a situation where we knew that we shouldn't have taken on a particular job but somehow the lure of the money was just too great to walk away.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

tedanderson said:


> I dunno. For me, that particular set of details helped to paint a more accurate picture of what the OP is dealing with.
> 
> You are right in that the customer's money is his money regardless of what he has, what he spends, etc. but generally speaking, people with deep pockets like to use their position to bully everyone else into having their own way.
> 
> This might have been one of those jobs that the OP should have refused at the time of the estimate. We've all been there before. At one time or another we found ourselves in a situation where we knew that we shouldn't have taken on a particular job but somehow the lure of the money was just too great to walk away.


I've been working for very wealthy clients for many years and have never had one try to bully me with their position. As a matter of fact it's just the opposite. It's clients that are in their mid 40's that have just started to move up in life that I have the most problems with. Usually folks with money are straight business and that's the way it should be. Most folks around me with money are a little older and wiser.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I've been working for very wealthy clients for many years and have never had one try to bully me with their position. As a matter of fact it's just the opposite. It's clients that are in their mid 40's that have just started to move up in life that I have the most problems with. Usually folks with money are straight business and that's the way it should be. Most folks around me with money are a little older and wiser.


:thumbsup: What he said.


----------



## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Damn, I'm 2.5 days over on a 6wk T&M job and I feel like chit (already comped the HO 1.5 days. You need to finish the job for no more $ and kiss the HO's feet. I don't know how you go from 1month to 4months, honestly you should get out of the GC business, It's not as easy as it looks.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

jhark123 said:


> Damn, I'm 2.5 days over on a 6wk T&M job and I feel like chit (already comped the HO 1.5 days. You need to finish the job for no more $ and kiss the HO's feet. I don't know how you go from 1month to 4months, honestly you should get out of the GC business, It's not as easy as it looks.


Sure it is. Just need a cell phone and a pick up :thumbsup::whistling


----------



## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Sure it is. Just need a cell phone and a pick up :thumbsup::whistling


Can't be just any pickup- has to be one of them "bankruptcy 350's". That's what they called the shiny new F350's around here when someone with 6 months construction experience and a loan from mom and dad started there own construction company.


----------



## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Ninjaframer said:


> Can't be just any pickup- has to be one of them "bankruptcy 350's". That's what they called the shiny new F350's around here when someone with 6 months construction experience and a loan from mom and dad started there own construction company.


Yep. When I see a very young contractor with a new truck, 20 foot full vinyled trailer, all shiney new tools, unscratched ladder rack holding one of each sized ladder and he's already home by 3 pm... I know it ain't gonna end well.

There are exceptions to that rule, but usually it takes years to build up your equipment and clientele.


----------



## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Seems we are missing too many parts to the puzzle.


----------



## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

VinylHanger said:


> Yep. When I see a very young contractor with a new truck, 20 foot full vinyled trailer, all shiney new tools, unscratched ladder rack holding one of each sized ladder and he's already home by 3 pm... I know it ain't gonna end well.
> 
> There are exceptions to that rule, but usually it takes years to build up your equipment and clientele.


Around here it is a cop on his off days, they figure no one will sue a cop and will never challenge what he says. They work 2-3 days a week at a house and the job takes forever to finish using mostly illegals. They sit in the truck and point to whatever needs to be done.


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

jamestrd said:


> I'm more curious as to what the hell he is paying this sub?
> 4 months...16 weeks..60,000 paid and no money left?


The math makes sense to me. It's the time frame that doesn't.

I realize location will play a big factor, but a legit one man sub shouldn't be ashamed to take in the area of 2K weekly.

If the GC takes 1K weekly for management, overhead and profit, you're already at 48K.

Without knowing scope of work, it's hard to say whether 12K covers material, dump fees, permits, possible design/engineering fees....

My issue with all of this is the time frame.

A week for demo is generous, a week for framing mods, a week for plumbing/electrical mods, a week for insulation and drywall, a week for tile prep, a week for tile, a week for trimming out, a week for painting, a week for cabinetry, a week for punch list, and two weeks for unforseen hurdles.... I'm still coming up a month light of 16 weeks.

I think most of my time allowances are very generous.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Would have liked to have seen pics to this job or specs. I just quoted a nice size bathroom in a $1.1M home

All material come to $24k that included high end fixtures too. I guestimated 7weeks. I won't say what I charged labor at but at the OP prices that's $5K a week at 7 weeks to pay him self and subs. Sounds like he should have easy been able to come within budget seeings he also never had the expense of cabinets, fixtures, tile etc etc. They are 60-70% of my material cost. 

That job sounded like a cash cow but some how he wants another $30K ontop :blink:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I have avoided this thread until now. I'm glad I read it. :laughing:

Op,

Get dressed and go to church. Monday morning, apply for a job...


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

I can't believe I missed all this. I need to see some pics. OP, where are you?


----------



## GeorgyD (Jun 21, 2013)

The customer told me yesterday that he would "not pay another dime until completion." I'm already $10K in the hole on this job so I told him this morning that if he wished, he could continue to work directly with my sub.

I'm sure you guys are going to rip me, but I just can't risk any more money without any assurance he's going to pay me anything.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

GeorgyD said:


> The customer told me yesterday that he would "not pay another dime until completion." I'm already $10K in the hole on this job so I told him this morning that if he wished, he could continue to work directly with my sub.
> 
> I'm sure you guys are going to rip me, but I just can't risk any more money without any assurance he's going to pay me anything.


Nah, I think we already ripped ya hard enough...

But what the hell happened? Where you paying the sub 100 bucks an hour to sit around all day?


----------



## GeorgyD (Jun 21, 2013)

I pay my guy $43/hr, and his helper $26/hr. 

Total costs incurred to this point for labor are $35,606. Total billed/paid by client are $32,109. I have not charged a fee on this labor. Both have worked roughly the same numbers of hours so the math of roughly 516 hours would be correct.


----------



## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

We all make mistakes. We all have "oh, sh!t" moments.

We are still wondering what you actually did on this job and why it is really taking so long. Is he doing everything? Are the other trades his subs or your subs. We really don't have any answers with which to help you out. 

Even if the carpentry sub is a bit slow, the electricians, plumbers, painters, etc., should be able to help speed things along.

I will admit, I don't do bath/kitchen remodels. I do mostly whole house refresh type remodels. Ie, windows, doors, repaint, etc. Never high end stuff. it's not my bailiwick. 

That being said, I can't imagine 60-90 grand in a bathroom. Then I can't imagine having so much work in a bathroom that it takes 4 months of actual paid work. This is why I don't do these types of jobs. 

Waiting on inspections, or the granite guy to get done, or the super special self wiping, self whizzing toilet to show up from Moldavia on wings of golden fairy dust doesn't cost anything but time.

Your sub is milking you.


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

GeorgyD said:


> The customer told me yesterday that he would "not pay another dime until completion." I'm already $10K in the hole on this job so I told him this morning that if he wished, he could continue to work directly with my sub.
> 
> I'm sure you guys are going to rip me, but I just can't risk any more money without any assurance he's going to pay me anything.


Given the facts as you stated them, gotta agree with your course of action.

Look, every man-jack here has screwed up - and you did screw up.

Do what you gotta do to protect what's left of your bacon, and then sit down and do this (because your in no position to understand the big picture right now):

1. figure out why it went south - no excuses.
2. Lay out how to prevent it happening again.


Maybe come back afterward and let us know how you fared, and what you decided.

GL:thumbsup:


----------



## GeorgyD (Jun 21, 2013)

My guy does everything except plumb, wall, paint, and electric. All of which I either did myself or hired my own sub for -- all of which were on budget. (Drywall was $2600).


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Given the facts as you stated them, gotta agree with your course of action.
> 
> Look, every man-jack here has screwed up - and you did screw up.
> 
> ...


What SmallTown said. I would love to learn by your mistake. :thumbsup:


----------



## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

GeorgyD said:


> My guy does everything except plumb, wall, paint, and electric. All of which I either did myself or hired my own sub for -- all of which were on budget. (Drywall was $2600).


Well, there is your answer. He is the wrong guy and is milking you. I still can't imagine there is that much billable work in a bathroom. You shouldn't be paying him to be getting anything but minor stuff, or schedule subs, or anything else. You should be doing that. It sounds like he is charging you for doing your job.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

GeorgyD said:


> My guy does everything except plumb, wall, paint, and electric. All of which I either did myself or hired my own sub for -- all of which were on budget. (Drywall was $2600).


So the tile isn't done yet and your sub doesn't plumb...drywall...paint...or electric...

So you paid a guy 35 grand to demo and frame a bathroom?

Wanna hire me?


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Too many hours. Post up the evidence. We need a copy of the contract and some pictures of the work. We will sort this all out for you. The name and number for this speedy Gonzales sub may also be helpful...


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

How about some pics. I need to see this $130k+ bathroom. 

There's so many questions I would need answered if this was me. 

What I don't get is a 3 man crew around here can knock a 3000-4000 house up in about 3months. This bathroom remodel took 4months? What exactly caused the hold ups. Your subs should have been in and out easy 7 weeks. Was these hold ups due to you or someone else? 

Also what exactly was this carpenter and his helper doing for 4 months. They could have built a massive house in that amount of time. Unless of course it's a 2000sqft bathroom.


----------



## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Somewhere, I bet the homeowner is blogging about this tragedy. We are currently contracting a condo interior remodel. We have added a bath, and remodeled two others. We are three weeks in, and drywall starts tomorrow. 7 days of demo and framing for a crew of 3, and roughly the same budget as the O.P. I am shooting for 8 weeks total from start to finish. I have never seen a bath with a 60K budget drag on for 4 months.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

> The customer told me yesterday that he would "not pay another dime until completion." I just can't risk any more money without any assurance he's going to pay me anything.


You really need to finish this job. Even if it's for damage control purposes or if you have to sue the guy for the rest of your money. I'd rather be in court petitioning for the money owed to me than to be in court defending myself and having to pay back a significant amount of money for uncompleted work.

If you abandon this job and the guy takes you court, what will end up happening is that the judge will consider the $60,000 that has already been paid out, itemize every task...say into 6 separate phases of the project, determine what has been completed, and then order you to pay back $10,000 for every part of it that's not completed.

If you finish the job and the guy doesn't pay you. Then you can sue him for the agreed final price even if the agreement was verbal. If you end up losing, at least he can't say that you didn't finish the work.



GeorgyD said:


> I pay my guy $43/hr, and his helper $26/hr.


If I understand this correctly, you paid the guys more than you paid yourself. In fact if I spent nearly $6000 in labor over the course of 2 weeks for 2 guys, I would expect to see a nearly functional bathroom.

Just to be frank with you- This ain't a government project. There is no way that I'd pay someone that kind of money if they couldn't do the drywall, plumbing and electrical. 

Understand that this isn't me pointing a finger of judgment towards you because I've made this same mistake myself. I simply had to send my guys home, man up, and finish the job myself through many late nights.


----------



## Esposito (Jan 24, 2011)

Warren said:


> Trade:
> General, plus drywall sub
> 
> That says it all for me. What a disgrace!


:laughing::laughing:


----------



## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

On a residential project, I did all the electrical and low voltage in: kitchen, dining room, living room. Put in wiring and plates for a sound system, network system and cable. Cans, lights, speakers, receps, switches, network switches, wires runs from crawl up to second floor. 

And I did all this for less ( a little ) than $10K including all parts, materials and labor. 

I need to move to the OP's neck of woods so I can make enough money to retire early.


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

Where are the frickin' pics already?


----------



## SDel Prete (Jan 8, 2012)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> Where are the frickin' pics already?


Don't be silly. No work has been done


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> Where are the frickin' pics already?


I have seen a lot of pictures of bathrooms in this price range. I have even been in a few. Seeings he was $30k short on the $60k and the customer still had to buy tile, cabinets and fixtures and have them installed I guess that the final figure for this bathroom is in the $150k range. That is going to be one extremely nice bathroom. There are awards each year for bathrooms in the 0-25k 25-50k 50-75k 75-100 ranges and the ones in the 50-75 range are unreal but the ones in the 75-100k range are mind blowing let alone a 150k bathroom. That's why I want to see the pictures.


----------



## renov8r (Feb 16, 2013)

My friend you sometimes need to suck things up and give up your winnings. Take it as a lesson, a learning curve so to speak. It happens to all of us, just remember when the going gets tough the toughs gets going. Forget about sub contracting all the work out, and work yourself a few extra hours a day to make up for it. Never ever, give a one month time frame for a job like this. There is always going to be problems and change orders. 

I have a bathroom that I've been waiting to get on the go since November. The people's tub and tiles still haven't come in yet. Everything is special order from Europe, that comes in containers with long time waits. They are buying their own items, and they are a good customer of mine so I am patient to wait. I haven't demolished anything yet. either until they get everything in order. From there on I'm good to get it done in about 10 days. However, the point I was trying to make is my customer is similar to your. High end taste, husband company nets 20-25 million a year. They buy quality and their stuff, similar to what your customer is doing.


----------



## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

I'm thinkin it must have Lazy-boy style toilet with led tv's in everything from shower to in the bowel of the toilet. Maybe robotic arms to dress you? At the least I'm bettin the shower automatically scrubs under your nuts.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Ninjaframer said:


> I'm thinkin it must have Lazy-boy style toilet with led tv's in everything from shower to in the bowel of the toilet. Maybe robotic arms to dress you? At the least I'm bettin the shower automatically scrubs under your nuts.


I don't care what kind of guarantee an automatic nut scrubber comes with, it ain't happening. Too risky!


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

GeorgyD, 

There is no magic pill here for this. 

You did some bad chit here. You dont know what you are doing, to be blunt. 

The only advice I can offer is to do the best you can to make it right for the clients. That might be taking a hike. That might mean paying cash out of pocket to finish. I dont know.

Its all you now.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Was this the sub you had doing the work?


----------



## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I'd of bet money we didn't get those pics. I give you props for stepping up to the plate
> 
> Looks like two weeks worth of work for a competent crew. I'd say that your lack of experience and a generous client allowed this to get this far. School of hard knocks baby.
> 
> ...


I think he needs to have a heart to heart with himself first!


----------



## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Thats all that is done at 4 months and $62k? And you think you are close to being done? 

Thats only a few weeks of work there no trim, fixtures, glass doors, none of the difficult time consuming stuff. You paid 2 guys with limited skills $69 hr to get to this far in completion? 

And you want $30k more? Thats balls. You must be a good talker.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Ok here's a comparison for you. Lets adjust your or pricing based on what you think this job should have been worth. 

$90k after you wanted an extra $30 on top of the current amount
$50k on cabinets, tile, fixtures and labor to install them all

That puts you at about $140k for a bath build. Lets just round it of to $100k to be safe. 

Here's what a $100k bathroom should look like


This took 6 weeks to complete. Ended up under budget from what I hear and and some very high end fixtures, cabinets and tile. They are the majority of the cost with most bathroom. This won numerous awards. 










It's clear your carpenter took you for a ride. I'm seeing no more than a couple weeks work on a bathroom with that design and layout Lets say 3 weeks max with the right crew of subs and carpenter. I'm also not seeing how you justify you need more money. looks like a $20k build max upto what you had to spend out seeings they were covering tile,fixtures,cabinets and labor to install them. The only person laughing to the bank here is your carpenter.

Unless he was cutting the trees and milling the studs on site and laminating sheets of OSB together for the job on site also there's no reason for him to have taken this long. If this was an addition and was built from the ground up then maybe yes if he was very slow it could have taken 4 months. But man on man 4month for what I my self could have knocked out in about 4 weeks tops working on me own.


----------



## SDel Prete (Jan 8, 2012)

Ninjaframer said:


> I BUILD ENTIRE HOUSES IN LESS TIIME. And if your sayin this thing will end up around 150K that would cover a 1400 sq ft guest house.


I build homes faster here too lol. I'm handing the paperwork in for a new home today. Once I get the permit I'm 8 weeks out here is your c/o enjoy your 1369 sqft home with 1 car garage. The only thing that MIGHT slow me down is how fast they get me cash and NJ natural gas can be pretty backed up from the storm still. 

Point being is your time frame doesn't make sense nor does the money. Big lesson is you never pay a sub hourly. He is enjoying carefree work with constant pay. I bet he doesn't pay his helper what you pay for him to be there either.


----------



## DKnafo (Feb 1, 2009)

Just out of curiosity are you there watching these guys? Are they really working those hours?


----------



## GeorgyD (Jun 21, 2013)

Maybe not to the extent you might imagine, but I do confirm with the client that they are on-site every day they bill for.


----------



## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

Looks to me like they show up at 8am, check Facebook/news/email/etc/, roll out a few tools, pitch quarters for a while to see who buys lunch, take a 90 minute lunch, come back and figure out what they need to get working on, re-check Facebook/news/email/etc, work for about an hour, take a break, work feverishly for 15 minutes to make it look like they accomplished something, roll up tools, take 30 minutes sweeping up to last till 4:30, bill for 9 hours each.


----------



## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

If I subbed somethin like that out and it took more than 6 weeks I'd be kickin someone in the balls. You kept payin for 4MONTHS? Either your retarded or this is your first job.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

500 hours of labor by your sub. I can't get past that. Your sub has been ripping you off - pure, simple, complete, brazen, highway robbery.


----------



## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

CarpenterSFO said:


> 500 hours of labor by your sub. I can't get past that. Your sub has been ripping you off - pure, simple, complete, brazen, highway robbery.


AND HE'S BEEN PAYIN! That's what I cant get past. At some point you never said to yourself- 4 months to demo and frame 200 sq feet sure seems like a lot?


----------



## SDel Prete (Jan 8, 2012)

If you have work in NJ ill gladly sub some from you. In turn ill sub that out for fair rate and just collect the $$$ lol


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Ninjaframer said:


> If I subbed somethin like that out and it took more than 6 weeks I'd be kickin someone in the balls. You kept payin for 4MONTHS? Either your retarded or this is your first job.


or both...


----------



## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> 500 hours of labor by your sub. I can't get past that. Your sub has been ripping you off - pure, simple, complete, brazen, highway robbery.


But if the OP had any experience at all he would have seen that in the first week and canned him.

That was not a good bath for the OP to start being a GC in.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Nothing like taking a bath on your first bath...


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Going nowhere guys. 

There is nothing we can do to help this man, its just redundant bashing now.


----------

