# Running A Business Without Hands-on Experience?



## TitanCR (Apr 15, 2017)

This following quote is from the sticky in this business secion titled "Pricing, Estimating, And Success" originally written by Brian Phillips, shared by angus242.

"_Putting paint on the wall is a trade skill. Pricing a job is a business skill. A skilled craftsman does not necessarily make a good businessman, because different skills are required. The owner of a contracting company does not necessarily need to have trade skills, but it is imperative that he have business skills if he is to succeed. The longer you wait to obtain those skills, the closer you move to joining those 99%._"

How realistic is it to be able to run a construction business with little to no trade skills? Or maybe not how realistic but how common is this method? I know this method can be used in many other types of business. Like, the owner of an economy airliner doesn't need to know how to fly planes. But in construction contracting?

I only know of one guy personally who's done this. He's an old family friend from my wife's side. He's retired now but he did it big back then as a GC. I'm from California and he is too and in California I don't think it's possible to have a license without any hands-on experience because of the requirements that need to be met to even submit an application (four full years of experience at a journey level, or as a foreman, supervisor, or contractor in the classification for which he or she is applying). May be possible in other states but doesn't seem like it here. So he graduated from UC Berkeley with an engineering degree of some sort which was credited to him as 2 years worth of experience (3 years maximum). So he went out to work to get the other two years of experience needed, got his license, went and started a GC business with a partner, cut ties with said partner and came out with his own GC business and took charge of 30+ workers in the field! He did it big! And I mean BIG! With just two years of hands-on experience at most under his belt. He was gifting company vehicles to his on-field workers to keep. The guy could barely handle a tape measure. Believe me, I saw him try to use a tape measure late last year and it was disappointing to say the least. Hands-on experience, he's not at my level. Business experience, I'm not at his level.

So anyways...:laughing: yea...seems realistic enough I guess but how common is this practice and are any of you guys here currently running like this right now or have been running your business like this since the beginning? What was the journey like?

Thanks for reading. Have a great one!:thumbsup:


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## daffysplumbing (Oct 16, 2017)

Your post asks two different questions; 1) can a person run a 'no hands on business', and 2) can a person run a business with no trade skills.

The answer to both is an absolute 'yes'. There are many people who can do both and my guess is that 99% of the people who try are doomed to fail because the problem with most people who don't have experience is they don't have a clue regarding what they don't know. We get back to an old subject where 99% of the people in this world can meet persons they never met and evaluate those strangers better than they can evaluate themselves in less than 1 minute. Put another way, most people think they have a lot more going for themselves (smarts) than they actually have.

I've seen hundred of people purchase many types of businesses e.g. construction businesses, hardware stores, automotive repair shops and restaurants. It appears to me that the majority of the new owners worked in these businesses 'hands on' and they failed because maybe they did not get enough training from the sellers, or it was not there 'Cup of Tea'. 

I always have two business on the top of my mind. I frequented a carburetor repair shop for about 20 years. The business was sold to someone and when I went there the owner was using the 'f' word about every 30 seconds. He was swearing at his worker and swearing about his hating the smell of gasoline. A few months later the business closed.

The second business was a hardware store. I went to this store for about 30 years and there was always a line at the cash register. When a person purchased the business the customers disappeared like the Ebola virus was in the building. Again, the owner was swearing at his worker with the 'f' word and a few months later the store closed.


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## Idothat (May 19, 2018)

Having worked in the trades for all of my adult life,I can say without any doubt that hands on experience is not necessary for a successful business.In fact I have seen many very lucrative contracting businesses where the owners had little or no trade skills... However, they could sell a job and ,more importantly ,they knew their numbers inside and out.When I worked for these people I,and my coworkers,would often think they were idiots. I was working for wages they were making thousands a day.you be the judge


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## Fishindude (Aug 15, 2017)

Some truth to the authors statement however, as one who has hired and fired a fair number of estimators, project managers and business development people, I can tell you that it is a huge help if they have some hands on field experience. 

We got to the point even when we hired degreed guys straight out of a construction technology college, we would keep them in the field for a couple years to get some hands on experience. Most of them really appreciated it and agreed that it was very beneficial.

A guy with no field experience making critical estimating, project management or sales decisions can get you in trouble in a hurry and cost you a bunch of money.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Guess you haven't been around very long there's probably more business owners that don't know sh*t about the trade than ones that do. At least that's been my experience the past 40 plus years.


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## TitanCR (Apr 15, 2017)

avenge said:


> Guess you haven't been around very long there's probably more business owners that don't know sh*t about the trade than ones that do. At least that's been my experience the past 40 plus years.


hahaha. i guess i just haven’t met or been exposed to such business owners. been in the trades for a little over ten years but only been in business for 1.5 years. still have much to see and learn.


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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

daffysplumbing said:


> I always have two business on the top of my mind. I frequented a carburetor repair shop for about 20 years. The business was sold to someone and when I went there the owner was using the 'f' word about every 30 seconds. He was swearing at his worker and swearing about his hating the smell of gasoline. A few months later the business closed.
> 
> The second business was a hardware store. I went to this store for about 30 years and there was always a line at the cash register. When a person purchased the business the customers disappeared like the Ebola virus was in the building. Again, the owner was swearing at his worker with the 'f' word and a few months later the store closed.


I have also seen this with businesses that are passed down to a son that just doesn't care. and years later the company is gone.


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

yes it is possible to do
the question is, are you willing to surround yourself by people who have the experience and knowledge and on top of that pay them top dollar?

most owners will not do that because it will cut into their "control" and their profit/personal income

These days I am nothing but a paper contractor and trash hauler. I have a trusted crew that I spend very little time with and because I've been working in the trades since age 14 I can walk in and immediately solve problems give direction and call it a day


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## Adamthebuilder (Apr 14, 2016)

There’s an old saying (I think German) that says, “Part of being smart is knowing what you’re dumb at”.

I have known quite a few successful business owners who were/are dumber than a box or rocks. I think their skill/talent is finding good people to work under them, and give them the freedom to succeed.


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## aquakbd (Aug 19, 2016)

I am not a contractor but I had to learn a lot to be where I am today and I still need to learn and work on my skills continuously. I have to have a deep understanding of contractor's job and of customer's wants and at the same time to be able to keep track of what manufacturers do and where the trends go. Advertising, accounting... I need to have a great understanding of all of these in order to succeed. Working on the aspects where you lack knowledge or skills important for your line of business is extremely important.


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## woody123 (Apr 29, 2018)

Adamthebuilder said:


> There’s an old saying (I think German) that says, “Part of being smart is knowing what you’re dumb at”.
> 
> I have known quite a few successful business owners who were/are dumber than a box or rocks. I think their skill/talent is finding good people to work under them, and give them the freedom to succeed.


well said .

i have a builders license, 
i go up , and down in size.

we did 2 sub-jobs for a g.c. "Carlos " , where we came in and did all the doors and millwork.

each job , this guy has just a person there to watch the job , but they have absolutely no supervisor skills at all ,
they are there just to keep an eye , and keep the job clean.
and then the person who checks on this guy is a young pretty airhead blonde . she has the owners back , but she knows nothing about construction elther

horrible idea 
if i ask the guy on the job a question ,. he says " i`ll call carlos "
and Carlos isn't much better , he is a g.c. who does not have any hands on experience.
i literally had to show him how to tell if a door is left hand or right hand.
both jobs were very high-end homes worth 3 million or more.

both jobs we`ve heard clients complaining about this.
carlos shows up in a Tesla, tight shirt to show his muscles , and has such poor social skills 
all of his talk is a sales pitch , and so in sincere
i do believe if you have no experience in what your selling , you have to surround yourself with people who make you look good

needless to say , i stopped working for carlos , but i keep wondering how he stays in business for about 5 or 6 years now. keeps getting these projects where they need allot of detail attention , and he keeps dropping the ball.
the last job , he was 6 months past the agreed upon completion date!


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Well **** they hired a builder driving a car to work. Lol


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

... the old "possible vs. desirable question"......


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## woody123 (Apr 29, 2018)

Jaws said:


> Well **** they hired a builder driving a car to work. Lol



HA!! true dat!
i laugh whenever i see him 
total Vin Diesel wanna be : bulging muscles , bald , swagger.
but i can see in his eyes his inner dialogue is " i hope they don`t ask me anything about construction..)


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## AllanE (Apr 25, 2010)

The very top custom builders in my market, building homes in the $4-$10 million range, to a person had no experience working in the trades and had no hands-on experience. They learned enough about construction by actually GC'ing the building of homes and by eventually hiring competent project managers. Business skills are more important than construction skills.


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## LPG (Jan 19, 2017)

I’ll echo and agree with the idea that Construction or hands on experience is not mandatory, but a few years of something isn’t a bad idea.

I used to work for a GC doing both commercial and residential, I believe he was doing in the ballpark of 10-20 mil a year, and although he acted like he used to wear bags, it was common knowledge that just wasn’t true.

He was a master salesman, had a construction degree from college, but no hands on experience.

Was funny, he’d come walk a job and you’d never sweat the small stuff, it was more “big picture” with him.

To wrap it up, I think his business skills, and knowing the numbers were 90% of what made him successful.... or at least seem it.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I know a number of builders who sub everything out and do very well with no hands on experience 

Personally I am glad that I started out at the bottom and worked my way up through the ranks as they say, not only for the trade knowledge but also because the projects that we started with were very small and less complicated and it was much easier for me to become educated in my job knowledge then it would have been if I had started out as a really good business guy and sales guy building the homes we are building now or the more complex remodels.

I wouldn't trade my trade experience or skills for a business education, but I won't ever be as successful as many who have better business skills, but am constantly educating myself. I have an ex-boss who is still a premier builder and remodeler in the area, he has never worked on a job site other than doing cleanup for his uncle and being a Lackey while going to college during the Summers. He is a great Builder, his job knowledge is very high for someone who has not ever done the work, and he has better educated in the actual building science portion then 99% of Tradesman that I run into. He is a multi-millionaire and has been for a long while.

I would definitely say sales skills are very important, most important other than job knowledge imo, I know several successful businessman that could not read a profit and loss and cannot tell you what their actual gross margins are on their jobs but can gather leads and sell like nobody's business. In my experience there a lot better or more experienced carpenters, some with 35 plus years of experience and incredible skill sets, than me who don't do nearly as well businesswise (many don't want to) and that's what it comes down to, sales and getting leads.


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## Fishindude (Aug 15, 2017)

On several occasions we hired skilled sales people from another line of work with no construction experience and it never worked out. My company did a lot of pre-engineered steel buildings. Can't tell you how many times they came back with a lead for an addition to a "steel building" that turned out to be a pole barn job. Wasted their time, my time, the clients time and made use look unprofessional.


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## TitanCR (Apr 15, 2017)

Jaws said:


> I know a number of builders who sub everything out and do very well with no hands on experience
> 
> Personally I am glad that I started out at the bottom and worked my way up through the ranks as they say, not only for the trade knowledge but also because the projects that we started with were very small and less complicated and it was much easier for me to become educated in my job knowledge then it would have been if I had started out as a really good business guy and sales guy building the homes we are building now or the more complex remodels.
> 
> ...


In regards to your last paragraph, my father-in-law is just like the carpenters you described. He's got a little over 30 years worth of experience under his belt, a master of the trades. I go to him for help and advice but he doesn't exactly teach me what I'm hoping to learn. Our conversations usually end somewhere along the lines of me saying "Yeeeaahhh...thanks, pops. But working on improving my personal time on how fast I can install a duplex worth of kitchen cabinets isn't going to help my business expand". He's a great and fast worker and he had the chance many years ago to have easily obtained a CA GC license and take over someone's business but he passed up on the opportunity because he just didn't want to deal with it.


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