# Pricing



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

RangoWA said:


> If you can't figure out a price you shouldn't be doing the job.





A bunch of common sense in that statement !:thumbsup:


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## C2projects (Jan 9, 2013)

rselectric1 said:


> No emoticons on purpose? Or are you serious?


Haha I do all my posts on my phone, I don't know how to do the emoticons. It'll make more sense after reading his posts in the "off topic" post " largest closet in America - robbed "

It was in sarcasm I don't actually hope he gets robbed. Maybe a bit to dry?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

:laughing:

equals

:laughing:


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## testing (Aug 5, 2014)

Robie said:


> Here's a construction pricing forum.
> 
> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1245





rselectric1 said:


> Great Find Robie!
> This one was my favorite!
> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055648412


Thank you both! See, I knew there were people on this forum who would provide useful resources. Everybody thinks it's impossible to help someone with a pricing question. I just don't get it. Ballparks can be extremely useful.

These forums are both great tools. Why can't Contractor Talk offer something similar. From what i can see CT is one of the best sites for contractors and has tons of users. Why wouldn't someone ask the question here?

Thanks again guys.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

testing said:


> Thank you both! See, I knew there were people on this forum who would provide useful resources. Everybody thinks it's impossible to help someone with a pricing question. I just don't get it. Ballparks can be extremely useful.
> 
> These forums are both great tools. Why can't Contractor Talk offer something similar. From what i can see CT is one of the best sites for contractors and has tons of users. Why wouldn't someone ask the question here?


The question was answered numerous times. There are so many variables it's pretty much useless. It's up to you to know the variables, no one else knows. I've been asked for ballpark numbers before and I learned very early on to decline. All people will hear is the low number if you give them a range. Ballparks are for games and I don't play games.


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## testing (Aug 5, 2014)

Leo G said:


> Being a craftsman and being a businessman are two separate things. _ Do you have the skills?_


Craftsman - Yes.
Businessman - Uh, sort of.

Let me explain why I personally would need to ask for help regarding pricing. I am probably a unique case.

Many of you guys probably started out in construction at the bottom and worked your way up over time. This most likely afforded you the opportunity to work with other professionals and learn the "ropes" from them. You likely learned a ton of trade secrets. Some of them I'm sure were related to the business end. You may have learned about the cost of certain projects.

In my case I have never worked professionally in the construction industry. I went to college for engineering and then spent 10 years working in the structural steel industry; then another 7 years as a software developer creating structural steel related software. This has been extremely fulfilling. However, my true passion is woodworking - primarily furniture and cabinetry making. I've been honing my skill over the past two decades on projects in my homes - this is our third. In addition to completely remodelling our first two homes I have also done countless projects for our friends. Mostly trim-work, built-in cabinetry, and wainscoting. This is the type of work I am most interested in doing professionally.

I saw someone post earlier that he never underbid a job. I have. I do it all the time. Why? Because I wasn't trying to make a living from those projects. My current job pays my bills and these extra woodworking jobs pay for me to do what I love and further my knowledge of the craft.

But now I want to get serious and give up my day job. I want to start charging appropriately for what I do. But it's tough for me to know what my work is worth because I've never seen what others charge. I've never worked for "a guy" and seen what he charged. I've never paid a professional to do similar work for me. Don't get me wrong. I have a pretty good idea but I still need to do more research.

So this is where I am coming from. Like I said, my situation is probably rare but maybe you can understand why I would be curious to know what others are charging. Look, I can find this type of info all over the web. There are many sites dedicated to estimated project costs. I have been using those tools too to help me along but when I saw ContractorTalk it just made sense to raise the question here. I would much rather get this information directly from the source.

Oh well. I guess I can charge what HGTV says. That's probably right on the nose, right?


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## testing (Aug 5, 2014)

totes said:


> To the OP, I understand your frustration with pricing. I struggle with that myself. I am more of a craftsman then I am a businessman. Here is something that has worked for me.
> Make friends with as many local contractors as possible, even your competition. Be genuine and don't burn any bridges in your trade. Try to take ego out of it and you will build allies very quickly. When you are in need of help bidding call on your friends, buy them a beer after work and have them review your numbers with you. Better yet take them along on the job walk with you and have them help you structure your proposal.
> When I genuinely ask for help, face-to-face, I'm always amazed with the willingness of my peers.
> it's a strange approach, but In the end this pricing check method will be way better than any forum you will find online.


Thank you very much totes. Excellent advice. It sounds like we are in very similar spots (see my previous post). Thanks again.


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## testing (Aug 5, 2014)

Tinstaafl said:


> At best, it's sheer laziness.


Thanks man. I appreciate it.

Keep on speculating!


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

> Let me explain why I personally would need to ask for help regarding pricing. I am probably a unique case.


Hindsight is 20/20 but your well-written post maybe should have been your very first post here at CT.

Welcome to the forum.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

The school of hard knocks is a fickle biotch.


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## testing (Aug 5, 2014)

Robie said:


> Hindsight is 20/20 but your well-written post maybe should have been your very first post here at CT.
> 
> Welcome to the forum.


Actually I think that is where I should have created a new post. The original post was intended to suggest creating a new forum to house my last post.

I agree that some background info is necessary but I wasn't actually looking for immediate assistance in this post.

You're right. Hindsight is 20/20. I should have gotten into this business a long time ago. What I would give to get my a$$ out from behind this computer all day and spend my days choking on sawdust:thumbup:

P.S. I do wear a mask. Just thought I'd point that out before I get grief about it


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Part of the reason why I like discussions about pricing is that it gives me a sense of perspective in comparison to where I live. I admit that I think that having it here on CT is a very BAD idea because not everyone is mature enough to handle it. I think that people would end up flaming each other on a regular basis. 

I don't know why it is, but if you verbally attack someone's work, their ethics, the vehicle they drive, their momma, etc. people get over it very quickly. But somehow when you start discussing money, what you charge, what you should/shouldn't charge, etc. you always end up in a war of words. You can't even go into a room and say, "I paid $***X for my work van." and not hear opposing comments about how you paid too much vs. other people who will say that you cheated the guy, and other people who say that they know a guy who had a better van or a better deal.

So I can see pricing discussions getting VERY nasty. This electrician builds a deck for $1000 and then all of a sudden I am every kind of hack, cheap @$$, carpet bagger, and anything bad thing you can think of.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Leo G said:


> The school of hard knocks is a fickle biotch.


So true. 

I never asked for pricing help. I had no business experience when I started mine. I had no trade secrets, inside knowledge, decoder ring or old boy network to rely on. I just figured out how much it would take to do the job and how much I'd like to stick in my pockets at the end of the day. All the other stuff came later. I suspect it's not uncommon.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

At this point, it's a long-standing community decision. If you don't like it, then find another community. I'm not being rude, just pointing out that you have choices - if you don't like French food, don't eat in French restaurants.

Now, it ain't no never mind to me what someone else thinks a bathroom should cost, so I wouldn't have a problem with a separate, un-moderated forum for pricing discussions, something like P&R, where homeowners could get together and try to establish that a 20x20 (meters or feet, doesn't matter) deck should cost $4000, or pfennigs, or whatever. Contractors currently trying to sell a $50K deck could go there and make the case for decks costing $83 million. Each post would have an auto-inserted comment about it being total B.S., provided as a service by C.T. for homeowners trying to beat down their contractor's price. Pricing posts in the regular forums would be deleted.

But why saddle the mods with that responsibility? Why not keep telling people that they should learn how to price based on understanding their business, which is a problem that other contractors may be willing to help solve.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

CarpenterSFO said:


> just pointing out that you have choices - if you don't like French food, don't eat in French restaurants.


I'm going on a hunger strike until the policy changes.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

tedanderson said:


> I'm going on a hunger strike until the policy changes.


I tried that with the edit button, I lost a lot of weight. Cricket's a tough cookie she holds her own pretty well, even against hard headed guys like me. :laughing:


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## testing (Aug 5, 2014)

So take a look at this thread. I think it's a good example of what we are talking about.

http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/help-pricing-151377/

Now I will say that the original poster put forth no effort explaining his situation. It's one thing to have to ask him to clarify but to provide no info at all almost warrants the replies he received. I said almost.

So if you completely disregard the 7 or 8 completely useless replies and go directly to #10 you will see that there are users who are more than willing to help out wherever possible. Thanks KAP for squeezing that in before the post was closed. I personally think it is a very useful and informative response by a member who is not here to practice his punch lines. I'm not a painter but I bet the original poster gained some insight from this. Now this is just one response. Imagine if the previous several replies were equally as substantive. How that couldn't be helpful to someone is completely beyond me.

Again, if you are reading this post KAP, thanks for the effort.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Tinstaafl said:


> At best, it's sheer laziness.





testing said:


> Thanks man. I appreciate it.
> 
> Keep on speculating!


That wasn't speculation, it was a statement of fact. Your tardy "introduction" bolsters that, and also reveals that you shouldn't even be here, since you're not a contractor. I'll let that slide for the moment.

You were quite assiduous with your research regarding how many pricing threads have been closed, yet you apparently never bothered to take the advice rendered with all of those closures: to read the thread "Pricing, Estimating and Success" and make use of the wisdom there.

So yes, I consider you lazy. Figure out your own pricing; I'm not going to do it for you. Unless you want to pay me well to do so.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

To the OP:

In your situation, the pricing will work itself out. Obviously you will not make any where near the money that you made on your previous job, nor should you. You have already stated that you have taken a loss on jobs. Use those as benchmarks to price future jobs. Keeping good records of previous work is really the only accurate way to fine tune your pricing. When I work up my bids, I try to be very specific. Not just so that that both parties know what work will be performed, but so that in the future if I need to campare a similar job, I can look back and see where my pricing was. I can also add/subtract based on how well I did on the earlier job.


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

I kinda liked the old " tree-fiddy " replies we used to give


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

hdavis said:


> The going rate is $10, ask anybody.


The cat lady paid me way more than that, and I have yet to meet the cat.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Even Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory was giving out $20 to take his cats.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Even Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory was giving out $20 to take his cats.


West Coast price - they're crazy out there:whistling


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> west coast price - they're crazy out there:whistling


easy!


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Tinstaafl said:


> The cat lady paid me way more than that, and I have yet to meet the cat.


That one comes with a special tale:whistling


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> easy!


...:thumbsup:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Frickin regional variations, I bet in Canada it's only $5, less if it's off season.


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## sailfish27 (Jan 25, 2014)

Joel, there is a lot of information on here about pricing if you use the search feature. I was asked about a month ago, from a referral, to quote a price on siding a large barn. While I have worked with vinyl siding before I had never priced or sided an entire house. I found a thread on here that discussed price per sq. I used that number and landed the job. I'm currently half way through the job and it looks like I will make some money. I hired a crew to work alongside of me that knows a lot more than me about how to install vinyl, so I'm getting an education in the process.

For bigger jobs there is always is a price per ft or sq as a ballpark then its up to you to audit your numbers. When I worked for a large union electrical contractor, they estimated jobs by counting outlets and light fixtures then they would multiply that to a dollar amount. Same with plumbers, per fixture, plasters per rm, flooring per ft roofers per sq etc. None of the guys I worked with measured each run or pipe or wire etc. The law of averages works out.

And yes, you can price a job without knowing how to do the job. It's called subcontracting or delegating it's done all the time. 


For smaller jobs, a day or two, price per block of time, half day or day not 6 hrs or 2 hours then simply multiply your time by your rate. For jobs lasting a week try to break it down to individual tasks. For instance, installing decking might take two guys a day. Railings a day , stairs another day etc. Always add markup to materials!! and always add money for slush fund, batteries, bits, fastners etc.

The best piece of advise I got from this forum was the more you bid the more you will learn. Your higher prices won't get accepted as often and your lower ones will. Then it's just a matter of moving the numbers around until you hit the sweet spot.

Good luck, hope this helps (disclaimer: I'm no expert)


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## testing (Aug 5, 2014)

I recognize now that I should have initially posted this suggestion in the Site Help & Suggestions forum. That's all it was meant to be - a suggestion. My bad if I didn't make that clear up front. Although I'm pretty sure I would have still been called a lazy piece of $h!t there too How about a bit of decorum guys? 

Here's a link some of you should check out... http://www.healthboards.com/boards/anger-management/:whistling

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion. I can't wait to see how my next post goes.

Thanks again.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

It sounds like it will go about like this one since you are blaming others for your lack of concern for the board policy.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

testing said:


> I recognize now that I should have initially posted this suggestion in the Site Help & Suggestions forum. That's all it was meant to be - a suggestion. My bad if I didn't make that clear up front. Although I'm pretty sure I would have still been called a lazy piece of $h!t there too How about a bit of decorum guys?
> 
> Here's a link some of you should check out... http://www.healthboards.com/boards/anger-management/:whistling
> 
> ...


Sticky from your link:

"
Anger Management is about learning to control one's own self
Administrator 
"


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## testing (Aug 5, 2014)

RangoWA said:


> It sounds like it will go about like this one since you are blaming others for your lack of concern for the board policy.


So let me get this straight. You don't agree that I was submitting a suggestion? I'm not sure how I could possibly spell it out more simply. I get it! You don't like it. A lot of people don't and I'm not telling CT that they MUST create a new pricing forum. Not my site. If you are not open to suggestion then how can you grow? Oh yeah -  off and figure it out for yourself!


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> The moderators aren't being D*&ks. The Federal Trade Commission forbids collusion. If there is even a hint, just a smell, of collusion, Contractor Talk could be in big trouble. Look at it as the permanent red tag.


This is a good enough reason for me. The very first page.

And yes, having this thread as a sticky could be a good idea.


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