# how many



## bknp7 (Mar 29, 2010)

Hey guys I have about 40 16"x16" block columns to fill with concrete about 10 courses high.My ? is I may have to pour the columns by hand (5 Gallon buckets)I have a skid steer and i'm asking how many 5 gallon buckets are in a yard of concrete.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

40.39


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## bknp7 (Mar 29, 2010)

thanks for quick response tx


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Have you ever filled a 5 gallon bucket with concrete and tried to pick it up? You better plan on around half buckets at a time. The bail is likely to break even doing it that way.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Why the hell wouldn't you use a pump?


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## bknp7 (Mar 29, 2010)

well I would love to use a pump but the fact of the matter is I don't own one and Im not all that overloaded with work so i figure putting 7 to 8 bucket fulls on a pallet with a couple of guys on the wall dumping would do the trick alot of work but I feel like i could do it cheaper than renting a pump.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

You have got to be kidding me.
That's an OSHA approved pallet, right?:laughing:


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

bknp7 said:


> well I would love to use a pump but the fact of the matter is I don't own one and Im not all that overloaded with work so i figure putting 7 to 8 bucket fulls on a pallet with a couple of guys on the wall dumping would do the trick alot of work but I feel like i could do it cheaper than renting a pump.


I would suggest you call a few pump companies and get some quotes for their rates and for how long they think such a venture would take. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised that you'll be about the same cost as trying to have a "couple of guys" hump buckets of mud to fill those columns. Also, you have to factor in your concrete source. If you're using a truck, then the stand time alone will pay for the pump. If you're hand mixing, then you'll probably be more in labor than you would with a truck and a pump.


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## KEPC (Jan 13, 2010)

A. Spruce said:


> I would suggest you call a few pump companies and get some quotes for their rates and for how long they think such a venture would take. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised that you'll be about the same cost as trying to have a "couple of guys" hump buckets of mud to fill those columns. Also, you have to factor in your concrete source. If you're using a truck, then the stand time alone will pay for the pump. If you're hand mixing, then you'll probably be more in labor than you would with a truck and a pump.


what he said


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## bknp7 (Mar 29, 2010)

Like i said I have a skid steer my thinking was to have 2 guys on the wall lift the pallet up have them dump the 7or 8 buckets while the truck is filling another pallet and just keep alternating maybe Im thinking it might be easier than i'm imagining.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

griz said:


> You have got to be kidding me.
> That's an OSHA approved pallet, right?:laughing:


All my pallets have an OSHA and a UL stamp of approval! :w00t::clap::laughing:


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

I have a CTL. I think I would put the mud in the loader bucket to transport and then use buckets to place it.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

A 5 gallon bucket full of concrete is almost 100#s, so figure 80 buckets per yard, plus what you spill on your shoes.

By my rough calcs, you have around 1.5 yards. I wouldn't call a pump truck for that.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Does you rental yard have skid steer concrete buckets?


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

bknp7 said:


> Like i said I have a skid steer my thinking was to have 2 guys on the wall lift the pallet up have them dump the 7or 8 buckets while the truck is filling another pallet and just keep alternating maybe Im thinking it might be easier than i'm imagining.


Uh, no, nothing is ever that easy. Skid steers tend buck when turning on hard surfaces, which will scatter buckets quickly. Unless you've got forks on it you're not going to quickly or easily pick up a pallet. Lifting and tilting the bucket smoothly to keep it level and not spill your buckets will be a chore, even if you're good at running the controls.

Try this test to determine if your idea is a good one. Go out in your yard and set up two pallets with 10 buckets of water each. Pick one up and move it as you would have to for this job you're proposing. Bring the first pallet back, drop it off, and pick up the second, repeat process. How much water did you spill? How long did it take you to make each pass of a pallet? How many buckets break when your guys toss them back to the ground to be refilled? Who's on the ground to refill all those buckets?

At the least you're looking at three guys, one on the column, one on the tractor, one on the ground to fill buckets and set up the pallet. Again, standing time alone on the concrete truck is going to kill you.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

txgencon said:


> Does you rental yard have skid steer concrete buckets?


That's cheating! :thumbup:

One would also assume that a vibrator would be needed to settle the concrete in the columns, which would take more time.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

A. Spruce said:


> ... Skid steers tend to buck when turning on hard surfaces ...


Exactly why I went with a CTL. Smoother sailing.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Just curious, don't CTLs have higher maintenance costs/issues? I know they're more versatile than a skid. I've never owned or driven one myself though.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

I haven't had any issues. But you damn sure want to keep it off of concrete. The tracks for my machine are around $2600/pair.


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## bknp7 (Mar 29, 2010)

that would be ideal tx for what i would need the rental yard says they have a 1/2 yard type hopper but its out for atleast two weeks.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

bknp7 said:


> that would be ideal tx for what i would need the rental yard says they have a 1/2 yard type hopper but its out for atleast two weeks.


Find another rental yard. I tend to use "Joe Handy" rental yards, one catering more to contractors may have what you need. It would be worth the money if they've got one.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

txgencon said:


> I haven't had any issues. But you damn sure want to keep it off of concrete. The tracks for my machine are around $2600/pair.


Do you have a machine / tracks you use for hard surfaces?


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## bknp7 (Mar 29, 2010)

the buckets would not be tossed to the ground simply placed back on pallet taken to the truck refilled .3or 4 palets filled with buckets of concrete.What would it take 5 min. to lift dump 8 buckets go get another palet so forth?


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## bknp7 (Mar 29, 2010)

A.Spruce I have no tracks the surface is sandy type soil fairly level.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

bknp7 said:


> the buckets would not be tossed to the ground simply placed back on pallet taken to the truck refilled .3or 4 palets filled with buckets of concrete.What would it take 5 min. to lift dump 8 buckets go get another palet so forth?


Your stop watch may time it that way, but I guarantee that the mud truck watch runs much faster.:shutup:


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

bknp7 said:


> A.Spruce I have no tracks the surface is sandy type soil fairly level.


So you're saying I shouldn't confuse the issue with irrelevant ramblings? :sad::no::blink:


I'm just tossing out my experiences with labor and equipment, your mileage may vary.:thumbsup:


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## bknp7 (Mar 29, 2010)

LOL! Spruce your probably right I havent thought to ask about that I dont pour much concret as you probably can tell but I can sure lay the hell out of some Brick & Block.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

A good rule of thumb for things you're not used to doing is to double whatever time you think it's going to take you to do it. That's basically what I've always done, and when it comes to time estimations, I've always been pretty darned close. The problem is when it's time to put a price to the job. Do you charge your normal rate or the going rate for a guy that does it all the time at the hours you've calculated, or do you drop your rates a little to compensate for the extra time it takes to complete the job?

My answer has always been to price the job for what it's worth, then calculate my time and know that I'm going to make a little less on this one. The next time I do the same job, however, I'm kicking arse and taking names!


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## bknp7 (Mar 29, 2010)

Sounds like a great rule of thumb!I would much rather rent a pump truck and knock it out ,but like I said money tight work is also I have a partner so thats 2 guys and 2 laborers there days pay seems cheaper than renting that truck hard work but hey its not like I"M on a time table.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

A. Spruce said:


> Do you have a machine / tracks you use for hard surfaces?


No, just try to avoid working/maneuvering on concrete or asphalt.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> A 5 gallon bucket full of concrete is almost 100#s, so figure 80 buckets per yard, plus what you spill on your shoes.
> 
> By my rough calcs, you have around 1.5 yards. I wouldn't call a pump truck for that.



I am going to have to agree. I wouldn't use a pump for this small amount of grout either. The company I work for owns line pumps. And depending on the situation they would most likely not get brought out for this. If the pump was on site already it would be a different story.

I would use a similar approach as the OP. But scrap the idea of the concrete truck filling the buckets. I am assuming your skid steer has forks on it. Put a mortar tub on the skid steer and fill it at the truck. Drop it off on the scaffold. Have one guy filling buckets and handing them to another guy dumping them in the wall. The first 3/4 of the tub can be emptied by scooping with the buckets, the last 1/4 you will need to empty with a shovel.

While they are emptying the first tub the guy on the skid steer will be filling another tub at the truck. Depending on the site and ability of your labor you can find a good system of how many different tubs to be running and how many 2 man dumping crews to be running at once.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

I would not call a pump either lol. Waste of money for that little bit. 

If you use a double batch mixer thats maybe 7 batches to make? 

And I would have no problem getting up on a pallet to do it myself either. He said 10 courses high, thats 80". You tellling me you would be afraid to put guys up 80" on a pallet? Ive been higher, I can tell you that

Im all for being safe, but lets not turn the trades into some big p*ssy fest here where people are afraid do do anything.


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## wazez (Oct 25, 2008)

NJ Brickie said:


> I am going to have to agree. I wouldn't use a pump for this small amount of grout either. The company I work for owns line pumps. And depending on the situation they would most likely not get brought out for this. If the pump was on site already it would be a different story.
> 
> I would use a similar approach as the OP. But scrap the idea of the concrete truck filling the buckets. I am assuming your skid steer has forks on it. Put a mortar tub on the skid steer and fill it at the truck. Drop it off on the scaffold. Have one guy filling buckets and handing them to another guy dumping them in the wall. The first 3/4 of the tub can be emptied by scooping with the buckets, the last 1/4 you will need to empty with a shovel.
> 
> While they are emptying the first tub the guy on the skid steer will be filling another tub at the truck. Depending on the site and ability of your labor you can find a good system of how many different tubs to be running and how many 2 man dumping crews to be running at once.


What they said^plus you'll only have acouple buckets to clean and not a pump.:clap:


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

6stringmason said:


> I would not call a pump either lol. Waste of money for that little bit.
> 
> If you use a double batch mixer thats maybe 7 batches to make?
> 
> ...


I am scared to put guys up on a pallet. Not because they will fall or get hurt. I am scared of the huge OSHA fine. 

But I do agree 80" is not a height to worry much about getting hurt.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

6stringmason said:


> Im all for being safe, but lets not turn the trades into some big p*ssy fest here where people are afraid do do anything.


It's not like they're NFL quarterbacks.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

*More than 1.5?*

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but I think you need far more than 1.5 yards.......you say 40 piers, 16"x16" x 10 courses.....So, we either have 40x10 16"x16" block, or 400 pier block, or 800 8"cmu's..... Now, I haven't pumped in years, but our rule of thumb for most 8" block was 1 yard per 100 block....I can't remember the wall thickness of pier block, but I'm guessing probably 3", which would mean 9.5"x9.5" open space per unit (roughly).....So even that would be .79 x .79 x .67 x 400 =167.25/27= 6.19 yds. So I think we are looking at between 6-8 yards, which is still quite doable without a pump......I do this all the time, with guys who know the system.....If you have guys that don't do grout a lot, then maybe a pump is best. My math could be wrong....but this is how I see it....


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## Valuster (Jul 25, 2010)

does your local rental center offer a towable gas-powered pump? it would mean ordering 1/2"- aggregate.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I actually come up with 11.59 yards when I am sober. 13x13x8 / 1728 = .78cuft per core X 400 = 313 / 27 = 11.59 cuyard.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> I actually come up with 11.59 yards when I am sober.  13x13x8 / 1728 = .78cuft per core X 400 = 313 / 27 = 11.59 cuyard.


Thanks for clarifying that. 
But that's why my original response was why not a pump.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

11.59 cu yd's ?

I told you I had no idea of the volume of the project.

That's more than 1-1/2 truckloads. Get some sort of pump, for gosh sakes.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

That's assuming the thickness of the pier blocks is 1 5/16".....which can't be right.....so I'm gonna stick with the 8 yards....


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Rockmonster said:


> That's assuming the thickness of the pier blocks is 1 5/16".....which can't be right.....so I'm gonna stick with the 8 yards....


I *ass*umed 8-8-16's= 800 block approx. 100 block per yd=8 yds. My guess would have been 8.5 to allow for oops & slop. Still say use a pump.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

An 8" regular is going to be about .26 cuft per block, so 800 X .26 = 208 / 27 = 7.7 cuyds. I will check one when I get to the yard tomorrow, but I am pretty sure the web is an inch and half on a pilaster block.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

I guess I should have read the original post better. But to me it still depends on the site conditions and labor, to use a pump or not. Looks like about 8 yds total. I have placed way more than 8yds by buckets. I have also used a pump for much less.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

Personally, I wouldn't pump it seeing as line pumps are extremely rare here, and pump trucks start at about $650 minimum here. Again, I can only speak for my own experience & locale here, but I would possibly consider ordering the conveyor/readymix combo truck that one of our supplier's has, which would be about $250-$300. More than likely though, I would just use our mudbucket:


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

A. Spruce said:


> All my pallets have an OSHA and a UL stamp of approval! :w00t::clap::laughing:


 I thought osha provides guidance specifically for construction workers to ensure compliance with mandated federal regulations, emphasizing accident prevention. They put stamps of approval? I thought ansi standards did that?


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

NJ Brickie said:


> I am scared to put guys up on a pallet. Not because they will fall or get hurt. I am scared of the huge OSHA fine.
> 
> But I do agree 80" is not a height to worry much about getting hurt.


 You then should read osha 1926.501(b)1 Each employer on a walking/working surface with an unprotected side or edge which is 6" (72") or more above a lower level shall be procted from falling by the use of guardrail system, safty net system, or personal fall arrest system. That means you can get hurt!


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

6stringmason said:


> I would not call a pump either lol. Waste of money for that little bit.
> 
> If you use a double batch mixer thats maybe 7 batches to make?
> 
> ...


GOD bless you! I hope to GOD that you really don't think safty is a p*ssy fest. I have seen men that got hurt will falls lest than 2' let alone 6' without fall protection.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The web on our block is 2-1/4", the core is 11-1/2", so .62 per unit or 8.86 cuyds for 400


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

CONCRETE MIKE said:


> You then should read osha 1926.501(b)1 Each employer on a walking/working surface with an unprotected side or edge which is 6" (72") or more above a lower level shall be procted from falling by the use of guardrail system, safty net system, or personal fall arrest system. That means you can get hurt!


Did you read my post? I know someone can get hurt falling from just about any height. You can also get hurt just walking down the street. We are construction workers, heights, sharp objects, rough terrain, exposure to electricity, and many other dangers are a part of our lives. Safety starts with individual responsiblity. Common sense and reasonable practices go along way for worker safety. With that being said I would not at all feel uncomfortable putting a man on a pallet on the forks of a lift to lift him up to grout a 10 course pier. BUT I would NOT do it because of fear of a fine from OSHA or violating site specific safety rules.

I am well aware of the OHSA rule you quoted. But realize that is not a blanket rule for everyone. Guard rails are not needed until 10' on masons scaffold.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

CONCRETE MIKE said:


> I thought osha provides guidance specifically for construction workers to ensure compliance with mandated federal regulations, emphasizing accident prevention. They put stamps of approval? I thought ansi standards did that?


Oh, that OSHA! I thought he was talking about Occupational Scaffolding Height Apparatuses.


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

NJ Brickie said:


> Did you read my post? I know someone can get hurt falling from just about any height. You can also get hurt just walking down the street. We are construction workers, heights, sharp objects, rough terrain, exposure to electricity, and many other dangers are a part of our lives. Safety starts with individual responsiblity. Common sense and reasonable practices go along way for worker safety. With that being said I would not at all feel uncomfortable putting a man on a pallet on the forks of a lift to lift him up to grout a 10 course pier. BUT I would NOT do it because of fear of a fine from OSHA or violating site specific safety rules.
> 
> I am well aware of the OHSA rule you quoted. But realize that is not a blanket rule for everyone. Guard rails are not needed until 10' on masons scaffold.


Saftey does require the individual responsibility but the contractor, employer, sub, has the legal responsibility. The employer shall instruct each employee in the recognition and avoidance of unsafe conditions and the regulations applicable to his work enviroment to controll or eliminate any hazards or other exposure to illness or injury. Saftey does require common sence, but lack of and or stupid suggestions by a fellow coworker can lead to unnecessary injury or death. I do not fear the fine or rules, I fear of hurting my fellow coworkers or myself.


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