# Skin in the game rant



## Vinny (Jul 21, 2007)

I dont recall it being as bad as it is now. Most likely becasue I was flush with jing and maybe I never noticed but as collections are at an all time low lately no one wants to have they're own skin in the game. And I'm talking specificly about GC's

As most of you know I now have a site work division. I probabaly needed to have my head examined. Why is it when everyone said dont.... I did???

Anyway, I have 4 jobs going right now. 3 of which are with 1 GC and the 4th is with another GC. They all expect the subs to carry them. I've never had so much money out at one time for so long with so few people owing it to me. The excuses are never ending but bottom line is they dont use they're money and if the client is slow, that means the subs get squat.

And now the GC's I do paving for are doing the same sh!t. I paved a job in early Novemeber for a guy I've worked for several times over the years and to date, he hasnt paid me for this one. I call his office, get the run around. I told him I won't spend the money to put a lien on the job. I'll have the asphalt plant do it.

I guess I could shut down the jobs I have going but it'll only hurt me. They'll just get some other dope like me to carry them. I'll eventually collect but if it is as they've said it is (the client not paying timely) then why am I carrying multi millionairs????? 

I paid $12.00 for a sandwich, soda and cookies the other day (as if my fat a$$ needed more cookies). It was already in the bag before I knew the cost. What did I do???? I flopped out a 20 and sucked it up but on the spot that guy got his moola. I'm 4 months on 1 job for $100K. I gotta get my head examined. Will someone please take the sign off my back that says F me hard and replace it with one that says shoot to kill, please

I think I'll give you guys a weekly rant. Better yet we'll have a rant contest once a week. :blink:

I just told my dad I really miss the times of just paving little crappy driveways. Taking the winter off. Fix wgat I had to, and start all over in the spring. It sucked sometimes to but it was so much simpler.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

vinny...right NOW!!! in retainage money only!, i have about $28k on the books. the oldest is 14 months old? you're right, we're not dealing with the same GC's our dad did, where handshakes, and get her done were the norm. now it's have your atty draw up the proposal, my atty will review the proposal, and see who can have anal intercourse with the other first. 

i'm not trying to blanket all GC's..and know there will be those who might frequent this forum and beat me up here....but it seems like what i've dealt with in the last 5-6 yrs...are what i call "suitcase" contractors. they hire the cheapest hooker on the street corner, and if they dont' get them off...go to the next one. i'm getting sore.


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## Vinny (Jul 21, 2007)

Your very right Day. I wouldnt blanket all GC's as I may have implied. I certainly know a bunch good hearted, hard working GC's that pay they're bills but those guys dont have work. And the reason they dont have work is because they wont take cheap jobs with the sole intent of sticking most of the funds in they're pocket and let the subs swing in the wind. 

The larger issue for our particular industry is there are too many ditch diggers with ditch digger heard and we're left competeing for the same nickel thats rapidly turning into a penny. 

I'm not sure if you can tell but I've had a pretty hard past few days and I long for better times.


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## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

I believe that some GC's are wolfs in sheep's clothing. Some really are out to rip your lungs out. 

Problem is finding this fact out after they owe you money. The only way to eliminate this do only prime work and hope the owner pays. :whistling

If it is any consolation you are not the only one dealing with this set of problems. Every contractor that I have spoken to has had this problem including myself, lost a lot of sleep over it.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

you can afford lunch...from the store?:blink:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Tom Struble said:


> you can afford lunch...from the store?:blink:


Fess up. I happen to know that you only eat roadkill three times a week. Who are you trying to fool?


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

As my dad tells me all the time. "Get used to it". If you want to continue in this biz, you are going to have to face the fact that you are carrying the GC's. I have one right now that burned us for $31k for a job we did last fall and finished in the spring. He has a gambling problem and he owes every sub in the area money. Had lawyer after him and he finally came up with a $625/wk payment which he is doing with everybody. So far, he made the first 2 payments and that was 10 wks ago. Nobody is getting paid by him. He also has a million dollar home in Florida.

Our best customer who we have worked for for over 20 yrs, it takes him 3-5 months to pay in full. It has been that way the entire time. We complete a $14k job in October and haven't seen a nickel yet. We just completed a $27k job for him in December and haven't received a nickel from that one. 

From what I have discovered is the GC's that are slow paying are the ones that have employees on the payroll. They are taking the draws and using it to keep payroll going and to buy materials to keep their guys working. I have found that the guys that are on their own and sub out most of the work are the best payers. Some of them hunt me down to beg us for a bill.


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Oh yeah, I forgot about the development we completed in Nov. of 2010. Final invoice was $130,000. Our paving sub charged us $80,000. The developer gave us $50,000. My dad took $30,000 from his savings to pay the paver.

In march we got another $60,000. In april another $10,000 and we just got our remaining $10,000 this past December because we filed papers with the local magistrate. He called bitching about it and I flew off the handle. He called back the next week wanted to meet up to settle. We'll never work for that guy again.


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## Upchuck (Apr 7, 2009)

I thought I had it bad but seems like you guys are chasing more money than us. I hound all people who owe us money. I will stop by there office or home repeatedly until we get paid. 

Even our regular clients are paying slow. We all understand that times are tough but I make it clear to our regular clients that I won't borrow money to pay my bills while they owe me money.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

I was on the phone with a GC yesterday who owes me some coins, and I was bitching about how slowly he has paid.

Explained to him that I did grading for the driveway, the paver came in and paved, I know he has been paid, but I did not yet get paid to prep.

Same thing with a "Rain Garden" we dug, provided and installed stone, filter fabric and special bio-retention soil. They guy who installed the plants in the pond has been paid.

He says, "If you're trying to make me feel bad you have succeeded".

I told him "I'm not trying to make you feel anything, I JUST NEED TO GET PAID!" 

He produced a check today for about 1/3 of what I am due. 

I wish you all well. It's a dirty business, this dirt business......


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## Moxley-Kidwell (Jan 28, 2011)

At least we can ***** to each other cause the customers don't really care, they can get another hack to come do the work with bells on. We've got 68K in retainage out and 150K in change orders that they aren't paying. Seams the national or bigger builders/developers are the worst, but have the deepest pockets. Go figure we can spend our life saving to finance there work, but don't worry you'll get paid sometime. Gets to be to much sometimes, but we've also got some of the best customers we've had for a long time that are keeping us going, so I can't complain too much.


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

It seems the excavators are the last to get paid because we have the biggest bill. It is easy to pay off the plumber and keep him happy when the builder supplies the material and the plumber is only working for a couple grand in labor.

We don't not say too much, because their is no other work out there and the GC's do not complain about our bill because alot of it is T&M. I had one wanting to cut our prices and I told him then we need to get paid in full in 30 days. He just changed the subject.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Vinny, I don't know what to say, but I am really sorry you're going through this bs. I wish I could help. I can only help by learning from your post. I have used subs before, no where near your budget, but I paid their invoice immediately out of my pocket. I try to be a man of my word, and I like the way things were where a man's word actually meant something. (I think I was born in the wrong era). Today, whether it's in business, standing in line, driving in traffic, etc., everyone is just trying to screw everyone with that "I'm more important than you attitude."

Again, I'm sorry and I hope things improve. This may change the way you do business, but don't let it change you.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I feel for you guys. I've talked to a lot of subs lately that aren't being paid timely or not at all.

I don't play in the league I'm assuming your dealing with. We are guilty of financing a lot of smaller jobs , meaning we get ahead of our payments from the client. We do not ever, however, play the I didn't get paid, so how can I pay you? game. My agreements are with the subs, they work for me, not the ho, I work for HO. When we contract with a sub (often still on handshake, although its not a great business practice in theory ) we have the money to pay them, either in operating capitol or from a deposit or draw from a client. This should not be something to be particularly proud of, it should be the norm. Generals are supposed to finance the jobs, most don't do it that way anymore. They act like and maybe even believe that subs should be grateful for the work.

A guy about my age is also second generation contractor, we know each other. 

He broke off from his old man and started building a few years ago, had a pretty good rep right away. A few months ago one of our mutual subs told me that the guy shorted him 5,000$ , said he was too high???? After the project was done??? Another sub who built a boat dock for him is owed 17,000$, said the client refused to pay the last draw. The boat dock work is immaculate. 

Meanwhile, he drives a King Ranch F 150 , and has another late model crew cab Lariat duelly, while not paying his subs. He dresses like a investment banker, goes on hunting trips, ect. It has gone to his head, I won't even acknowledge him in public. , or in private for that matter. His dad must be deeply ashamed. I don't know if it is that he got so caught up playing the image game, which is for suckers, or just got to separated from reality because he doesn't do any work anymore, or what. Point is, he is becoming the norm. Most GCs take their cut upfront, if many of them are to be believed.

We really are at a point in time where keeping your word and doing what's right, especially when it is hard and potentially financially ruining is just bad business, and considered to be suckers for taking the hit in your own wallet. At this rate the type of man I am and hope my kids will become, will be a dinosaur before I'm forty.


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## backhoe1 (Mar 30, 2007)

I don't know of any GC's around here that pay before they've been paid. 
It really sucks to be the little guy with all these bills having to wait for some project manager to remember to send a pay request to the owner, and then wait for the owner to pay and then finally an office manager to write me a check and then actually remember to mail it.

It seems that they always have some excuse, I have been known to respond that "I'm only interested in something that I can take to the bank"


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## Vinny (Jul 21, 2007)

I read all the reply posts and have come to the conclusion: We're all F'd up and we"re all our own worst enemy. We whine "you better pay me in 30 days" or I'll never let that happen again" but time and agin we (collectivly) step on our johnson's and fall right back into the same crap. 

The best time I ver had in business wasin my paving division in the mid 80's and 2001 to 2007. Market to new clients (mostly home owners), sell your company, do a great job, be in control of schedule, be in controll of the money, get paid in full when we were done, and no one had anything over anyone. Then repeat the process. Its said its more expensive to market to new clients vs marketing to the existinmg ones. Its worth every penny. 

Unfortanatly those clients are gone. Theres a few still but no where near enough to run a real business. Very sad state of afairs....... very sad


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Tinstaafl said:


> Fess up. I happen to know that you only eat roadkill three times a week. Who are you trying to fool?


:tongue_smilie:


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## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

Excavation is a tricky one. I have a schedule where I need to finish a job start to finish while my equipment is there so I can move to the next in order to stay competive and timely. The cost and time of the move tends to motivate me to "work on faith" since there is only a day's work left, etc. Ultimately we all tend to get suckered into finishing the job while we're there since we really don't want to cart our stuff back and forth. If the GC's wanted to pay us for all that downtime and movement that would be one thing, but they figure on just one move in fee and the rest is our problem. Combine that with the fact that our job is "fun", and getting paid becomes even more of a challenge, since we are just out our time and maybe a "little fuel" according to the rest of the world. Point being, no one really wants to do a plumbers job and a plumber can pick up 40lbs of tools, hop in his van and leave if he isn't getting paid. We excavators don't have that luxury and everyone wants our job (until winter hits, clean-up time, grease time, repair time, etc.) because all they see is "fun". I have been very fortunate in getting paid, but I make sure they know I am worth every darn penny through my finished product, service, and paperwork trail. Good luck all!!!


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## MIT (Sep 1, 2008)

I work for a homebuilder who does about 60 homes a year we do each one in 4 mobilizations- dig it- backfill, utilities- rough grade after brick and final grade after concrete. They pay every two weeks. Also work for several natural gas drilling companies they are 3o days I do pave for a management company they give me about 500000 worth of work every year but it takes 120 days to get paid thats hurts.


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## Redneckpete (Feb 22, 2008)

At 30 days I start calling. At 60 days I call every other day. At 90 days I call every day and at 120 days I call every number I can find for the customer, family or friends, employers, my customer's customers and suppliers. I program the numbers into my phone and call one or ten numbers every time I'm waiting for a truck, driving or even thinking about them. I've called over 30 numbers in a single day.

I'm always paid by day 130. If a customer wants to dispute a bill, do it when you recieve it, not 90 days after the fact.

Pete


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