# Tile Installation Failures in a High End Remodel



## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

ee3 said:


> looks alot like a job I worked on (after the fact) done by a contractor also from Indy, where they used gypsum board for the curbs with Liquid Membrane .Failed in less the 6 months..


Would be very interested in who it was. Send me a PM or email if you don't mind sharing. 

Thanks.

[email protected]


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*Chris....*

So are you going in there to try and repair that or gutting all the bathrooms and starting over? That is some really "poor work" and improper choice of materials to use who ever did that..... Let me guess..the company that did the work is probably very well known .. advertises a lot.... just a hunch...

Good luck with that job... Some of that looks like a structural problem as Kent said... thanks for sharing.

Brian


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## Ashcon (Apr 28, 2009)

ChrWright said:


> It's a STANDARD acrylic tub, and obviously flexes a ton when you get in it. Not sure what's going on there, but hoping we can open the walls up outside the room to pack mortar or foam underneath. We'll have to remove some drywall to see what's really going on. Worse case will be to tear out the tub and re-install it.
> 
> I think the tub needs some support around the perimeter underneath the lip, I am surprised how many of times this is not done.
> 
> ...


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

Looks like you got bigger structural issues. Yes, it's poor tile work, but from what I see my radar is going up on the much bigger structural issues.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

It's refreshing to see this kind of workmanship in another trade. As a roofer, I'm used to it.


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

ChrWright said:


> Notice anything funny about the tub spout?


That's NOT an escutcheon........:no:









It's one of the rings he saved from the shower curtain during demo:w00t:


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Its jobs like this that gives tile installs a bad name and why I will normally spend some time in my presentations talking about proper install techniques


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

ChrWright said:


> In all of these baths there are indications the tile installer was a poor craftsman. Clumps of grout left in corners, no movement joints anywhere, lipage, open gaps between different materials that can only be seen from a ladder, etc.


That seems to be par for the course these days. OK, the last 10 years I've seen.

"Builders" hire hacks/mexicans so they can make as much money as possible.
"homeowners" buy it either because they're committed and it's being built for them and/or they know they can sell it for more down the road because of the rise in the market (bigger fool principle).
Hacks/mexicans work for bottom dollar because that's all they can find and "can do tile" and/or any work in the US pays far better than in mexico.

That's my analysis of it and I think that's dead on.
What I _*cannot comprehend*_ is how this has continued to happen for so long. OK, mebbe I do comprehend it. I just refuse to accept it. My wife's friend bought an 800K house and the tile work was atrocious. But that bleneded nicely with the atrocious cabinets, atrocious trim, etc. But they were the "bigger fool" that bought it.

I can give you a list of all the "major" reno companies in denver and they all use mexicans. I hear one on the radio daily and wonder how they can pull their BS as I went in one of their jobs to fix a shower/bathroom someone else started and the HO stated she just wanted someone that can speak english.

Relatedly, why are housing units priced so....yet wages are down in the 1970s range? Or mebbe most importantly.




> This work wasn't done be a guy in a beat up truck with a rented wet saw. He wasn't a Craigslist Jackleg. The tile sub was a "professional" company.


It'd be interesting to find out more about that "professional company".
Around here, most use mexicans. Second tier is russians and they can do good work, but there are way too many mexicans lined up ready to work for $12 hour. One company here is or will be shutting down and I say good for them. They were well known by americans for using mexicans with fake SSNs.

I think a lot of the "professionals" in the tile/stone field have either waaaaaay specialized in their niche or have left that field into something else.

Finally, the manufacturers/internet boards are mostly interested in revenue (the first, 100%, the last, 90%). So they are putting out stuff that is, paraphrasing what John Bridge told me, "foolproof for the homeowner to do".

Such is the nature of things. Gimmicks/gadgets/tools are to take the place of putting your time in, learning the trade, _becoming_ a craftsman. And I know people that have been doing (fill in the blank) for double digit years that are still hacks/incompetent. I think I worked for three years before I was allowed to touch a trowel.

Thus...we are getting what we deserve.....IMO.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

andybuildz said:


> A few extra bucks to use Kerdi and Ditra might have solved a lot of those woes...


No majik/miracle underlayment will solve those issues.
But the manufacturer of it would make some more money.



> but then again if they thought to use Kerdi or Ditra they prolly would have done a good job


That's a very absurd statement.
So what kind of work is done by those that use hardibacker? 
Denshield?
Float?
etc.

Tools/gadgets/gimmicks don't make the craft.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Bud Cline said:


> The tub isn't a big deal and caulk would have likely cured that issue assuming the tub base is installed properly to begin with.


And that's quite an assumption....something I've learned to disregard no matter what the cost of the unit. How friggin hard is it to install a plastic shower pan? Apparently it is a very complex thing to do as I've seen every unit in an 8 unit condo building all have various forms of "surfboard" plastic pans. I tore out one unit and the tile company even had the gall to put their company's name, date and phone number in there. I though of calling them, really, and asking them if they were on some "medical" reefer, I mean "cannabis".  Granted, they didn't set the pan, but they replaced the greenboard with hardibacker above that pan.

Mebbe the dramatic increase in the need for "medical cannibis" in CO is due to all the homeowners realizing what they really got?


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

CO762 said:


> "Builders" hire hacks/mexicans so they can make as much money as possible.
> "homeowners" buy it either because they're committed and it's being built for them and/or they know they can sell it for more down the road because of the rise in the market (bigger fool principle).
> Hacks/mexicans work for bottom dollar because that's all they can find and "can do tile" and/or any work in the US pays far better than in mexico.
> 
> ...


As many know I am the first one to complain about the illegal problem in the construction industry.But Mexican does not always equal hack.Some of the best tradesmen I know are Mexican.Some of my best friends are Mexican.

A hack is a hack.Nationality has nothing to do with it.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

ee3 said:


> they used gypsum board for the curbs with Liquid Membrane .Failed in less the 6 months..


Interesting point.
If the waterproof membrane is indeed waterproof, one can put it over drywall.
Or does horizontal vs vertical make a difference in their waterproofing?
Or does....


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

jarvis design said:


> Its jobs like this that gives tile installs a bad name and why I will normally spend some time in my presentations talking about proper install techniques


and that's one of the problems today--ish.
Most of the tile work is done not directly, but by someone that sells the bathroom remod, kitchen remod, remodeling company, etc.'
So whoever does the tile/stonework, is hired by who got the job or is their employee. The only time they see the HO is when they show up to do the job/work and by then it's a sold job, a done deal. If the person actually doing the tile/stone is a quality tile/stone professional, are they going to say, "I guarantee my work for XX years" while the company that got the total job guarantees it for "X years? You make the GC look bad you won't get another job. 
I've walked into a job once and said to the "carpenter/setter" that "that WILL fail". HO heard that and what followed was a "discussion".....

A lot of the problem in the trades is "structural", no pun intended....


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

JumboJack said:


> But Mexican does not always equal hack.Some of the best tradesmen I know are Mexican.


true, but in a cost driven sector, the lowest bid/wage often means "mexican" and "mexican" means illegal.

And with illegals using American's social security numbers, all sorts of "income arbitrage" things can happen.



> A hack is a hack.Nationality has nothing to do with it.


Actually, it truly does. In CO, I'd guess that 90% of the trades/construction are mexicans. And they are used due to cost savings (profit potential).
There may be some mexican craftsman--I've seen some in mexico and some outstanding DW finishers in CO--but it all comes down to numbers and the mexican win in our country by bodies up front and builders/owners/manufacturers on the back end profit.

I just wish they would stop asking to borrow a "lapiz" from me........


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

CO762 said:


> true, but in a cost driven sector, the lowest bid/wage often means "mexican" and "mexican" means illegal.
> 
> And with illegals using American's social security numbers, all sorts of "income arbitrage" things can happen.
> 
> ...


Mexican does not mean illegal........


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

JumboJack said:


> Mexican does not mean illegal........


Somewhat interesting proposition of what does one call a mexican living/working in america.

Working in the trades in CO, lived in mexico three times, and speaking mexican spanish, the americans I know in the trades refer to themselves as "americans" or less "hispanics" or even less "latinos". I've never ran across any mexican living in america as a mexican working here with a green card, tourist visa, etc. They speak mexican spanish, listen to the many mexican radio stations that play mexican music, have the various states of mexico on the back of their vehicles, and when I ask them something in english, they don't understand.

OK.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I like burritos!


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I like Selma Hyack.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Would you share your burrito with Salma Hayek?


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

I would trade her my burrito for her taco:whistling


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

ChrWright said:


> Fiberglass tub is completely free, clear and unsupported. It is hanging by the screws in the nailing flange. It was built with an OSB base that is floating about 2" above the subfloor.


A _floating _tub :blink:

What a concept.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

I can relate to this one--I've been fixing a high end bath cluster **** all last week.

Poor trusting folks---paid a bunch,too.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

jarvis design said:


> I would trade her my burrito for her taco:whistling


 
Hoss..gonna have come stronger than that. Come strong or stay at home!

Stuctural was the first thing that crossed my mind too......regarding the op. Not the video.......some nice structure there too!


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

The nailing in the flange crossed my mind too. :whistling What I get for following instructions. :furious:

And no, this not something I would attempt for a paying customer. Not my field. I realized pretty quick I will be tearing dw out of two other rooms to fix this. Closet and bdrm. Some new dw. Live and learn.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Days 2 & 3:

Floating tub:










Backside of tub spout:









Packed in mortar bed:

















Cut in the movement joints and caulked today. Replaced the drywall at the ends of the tub, prepped for paint.


Started on this jem...

The bottom 12" is hardi. Drywall from that point up. Don't ask me why. There was a mud bed set direct to the subfloor, with 9235 over it. Hardi on the curb also 9235. The drain flange came apart easily when we got the mud bed out around it. 

Looks like some Hydroban in places. Love the lippage.










































We were originally just going to replace the shower pan, curb, and bottom 4 rows of tile. With the discovery of green board I'll recommend complete replacement. Unfortunately it's Iron Gate tile, which is no longer being made.

Thinset on the lower section.... mastic on the outside of the curb and above the hardi. 

I'm kinda speechless over this one. With so many things wrong, it's almost like they were trying to screw it up on purpose.

Sickening.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

Some people just act like they know and they really don't know. Water is a dangerous thing.


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## MAD Renovations (Nov 18, 2007)

ChrWright said:


> I'm kinda speechless over this one. With so many things wrong, it's almost like they were trying to screw it up on purpose.
> 
> Sickening.


This is one of the best lines yet..... I wonder just how often this happens. I would hope that is it just a lack of knowledge from the origional contractor(s). Crap like this makes all of us look bad..


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## CanCritter (Feb 9, 2010)

looks to me like a shoemaker has been at work.....


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## Frankwhoa (Oct 20, 2010)

If he knew how to do a shower pan then he would have known how to caulk those seams! I bet he didnt reinforce those underlayment joints with fiberglass mesh tape and mortar either and then coat it all in RedGard or better


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

UPDATE.

Bath 1 is done 100%.

The shower bath was grouted today. I was able to find a distributor who still had the Iron Gate material in stock.

Unfortunately, we found the walls were a mess as well as the pan. For some reason, these jack-legs used Hardi board up the wall from the pan about 12 inches, then green board from there to the ceiling. We opted to remove all of the shower wall tile and start over. We took one entire wall down (short side of shower and behind toilet) and another we took out to the point it stepped down to wainscot height to go behind the vanity. 

The tile was a dead on match, and I'm hoping he grout will wear in quickly to match the existing.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Nice work Chris as usual any pics for us to savor the moldy ymmy greenboard..:w00t:


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## ultimatetouch (May 27, 2006)

What a mess. I have a tile guy that I pay well. Hes detailed oriented and knows stone really well. What I like about him is that he will do a beautiful job and I know he wont cut any corners. He will take the extra step weather I am there or not.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

We're going back now to work on the master bath, which by far has the most problems.

Since I was there last, the problem has "grown"...


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

More shots of the steam shower...


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Chris:

Is that a mushroom sprouting from that shower curb?:blink:


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

seems like a lot of the grout is missing, which caused leaks. i can't believe how rotted the outside area of the curb is!
what did they use for a liner?


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Warren said:


> Chris:
> 
> Is that a mushroom sprouting from that shower curb?:blink:


Yup. Haven't seen that one before...


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

ApgarNJ said:


> seems like a lot of the grout is missing, which caused leaks. i can't believe how rotted the outside area of the curb is!
> what did they use for a liner?


All of the inside corners were grouted (and yes, some were left with gaps.)

Not sure on the liner yet. But I can tell some of the tile was installed with mastic. 

Ridonkulous.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

Job security , find out who did it, and contact their other clients.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

I know who did it... :whistling

Unfortunately this is not the first bit of crappy work of his I've seen.


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## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

ChrWright said:


> The hits keep on coming.
> 
> The clamping drain (with no liner... caked with silicone...)
> *
> ...


Send it to the lab and have it drug tested.

At least it was #1.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

:blink:
At least he put the lid on....................


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

Like a dog... he marked his territory..but failed..


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

astor said:


> Like a dog... he marked his territory..but failed..


I did not do that job... :laughing:


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## JHC (Jun 4, 2010)

Those second pics are much worse imo than a bottle of piss hidden away..


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

ChrWright said:


> The hits keep on coming.
> 
> The clamping drain (with no liner... caked with silicone...)
> 
> ...


How did you know it was piss and not apple juice? haha. I wouldn't want to even open a bottle to find out.

So they would have been better off with a vinyl pan instead of what they attempted to do, I don't see any membrane, fabric, or waterproofing anywhere. 

What a joke.

Good luck and looking forward to when it's done right. I know you will document it well.


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## javatom (Sep 9, 2008)

I would love to know if the homeowner went with the lowest bid when it was originally done. If so, what do they think of that concept about now.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

I think this was a new build...


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

Tech Dawg said:


> I think this was a new build...


I think their gc might have gone with the lowest bid


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

You finish this job up yet? Are they happy?


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Sorry for the slow update. Here are photos of the finished re-remodel.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

A few more...


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

We took the opportunity to make some improvements to the bath during the repairs. We replaced the vanity (custom built to utilize the original marble counter), added tile above the wainscot over the vanity, and also added a wall covering. 

The original design was by Matt Harris, and he also designed the improvements the second time around.

The new floor tile is a premium grade thasos, with a marble & thasos accent. We kept the existing wainscot (you'll see it's got some lipage issues, but they wanted it kept)--but applied a new base molding over it to hide the gap at the floor. This kept us from having to match the original floor height.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

If you look at the original photos of the steam shower (page 1), you'll notice the outside corner walls were completely glass. During demolition, we discovered a major structural issue in the ceiling above the shower. We were forced to build a wall section at the corner to support some roof load--which was the cause of the ceiling slope issues.


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

Just amazing !## 


Awesome design. Love it !


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

Like always great job Chris!:thumbsup: I just wonder why you have base outside of the shower enclosure under the curb...just to make consistent look?

Second look, hard to tell if the base is ceramic or high gloss painted wood..picture 4 at #131


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

That is spectacular. Design........everything. Very impressive.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

astor said:


> Like always great job Chris!:thumbsup: I just wonder why you have base outside of the shower enclosure under the curb...just to make consistent look?
> 
> Second look, hard to tell if the base is ceramic or high gloss painted wood..picture 4 at #131


The base tile does run around the entire room, including across the shower curb. You're correct, it was just for consistency.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Most customers just aren't qualified to distinguish great or exceptional work from crap with window dressing, yet they think they can. And even when you do provide top-shelf work, they're hard-wired to try and find a better deal the next time around. Then they learn the hard way...all over again.

I did work for a woman for a couple rental properties for several years. All was great, and she never had a problem that wasn't addressed pronto at a fair price. But she got tempted by a painter who had a cousin that did bathroom work and could give her a "good deal". Turned out they didn't know how to hook up a tub drain and the kitchen was right below. To make it even better, the tenants didn't think the leak was a big deal so they waited for a few months to let her know. Oops.


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## JHC (Jun 4, 2010)

Awesome job as always Chris. I had almost forgotten about the mushroom pic. lol


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