# Load Bearing Walls Running Perpendicular To Ceiling Joists?



## Antropovsky

I'm looking at removing a wall to open up a room. The span is approximately 12'. What makes this job confusing, is that the floor joists are running perpendicular to the wall I want to remove, and the Ceiling Joists are running parallel to the wall I want to remove. If this wall, doesn't have a joist directly above it (running parallel with it), then what load could be going through it? I've gotten numerous quotes on the job, and noone has been able to tell me for sure if the wall is load bearing or not. The contractors I've had look, have suggested a beam anyways, just to be safe. The materials would be 2 2x12's together, spanning the 12' distance. 

Here is my question pertaining to the two 2x10's spanning the 12'. Is this typical? And should it be placed directly below a ceiling joist? Or does it matter? 

Thanks everyone.


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## thom

Antropovsky said:


> The contractors I've had look, have suggested a beam anyways, just to be safe.


You've had the wrong contractors look. 

Either it is or is not load bearing. If it is load bearing you cannot engineer a beam for it without knowing the loads it is bearing, where they are bearing, and how they transfer through the structure to the foundation(s). 

Find someone competent. There are contractors who can do the engineering, if you cannot find one, hire a competent engineer.


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## ScipioAfricanus

It is possible that the wall is carrying the load of purlins for the roof rafters.

Just surmising.

Andy.


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## jlsconstruction

It's not load bearing. And 2 2x12s would be undersized. At least around here. Usually over 8' we go double 11 7/8th lvl


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## Antropovsky

jlsconstruction said:


> It's not load bearing. And 2 2x12s would be undersized. At least around here. Usually over 8' we go double 11 7/8th lvl


Thanks for all the responses. 

JLS why do you say that it isn't? I'll add that there is a partial poured concrete wall in the basement running parallel to this wall I want to remove. There is a 5 1/2" x 5 1/2" girder on one end of this foundation wall. This concrete wall has a chimney built onto to it. 

We are still contacting contractors, as I didn't like that none were able to give me a yes or no answer on whether this is a load bearing wall or not. In the mean time I like to hear what you guys think.


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## jlsconstruction

Antropovsky said:


> Thanks for all the responses.
> 
> 
> 
> JLS why do you say that it isn't? I'll add that there is a partial poured concrete wall in the basement running parallel to this wall I want to remove. There is a 5 1/2" x 5 1/2" girder on one end of this foundation wall. This concrete wall has a chimney built onto to it.
> 
> 
> 
> We are still contacting contractors, as I didn't like that none were able to give me a yes or no answer on whether this is a load bearing wall or not. In the mean time I like to hear what you guys think.




You're better off looking above the wall, rather than below.


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## Antropovsky

jlsconstruction said:


> You're better off looking above the wall, rather than below.


So just to be clear. 

This house is 35' x 20' approx. The floor joists are on 24' centres, and run the 35' length. There are only 4 walls running perpendicular to these floor joists inside the house:

2 being the outside walls.
1 separating the kitchen and dining (I want to remove)
1 separating the living and dining 
------------------------------------------
both these interior walls are sitting on 5 1/2 x 5 1/2 girders in the basement. (one being more of a partial poured concrete wall).

With that information would your opinion be that it's still non-loadbearing. 

I'm not very good at the blueprint stuff, but I'll try to draw something up soon, to better illustrate the situation.


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## kiteman

Tell us more about the ceiling and roof.


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## jlsconstruction

Impossible to tell without seeing what's above it. Just wondering, is this the same house you already asked about?


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## thom

You don't say where you are but, assuming you are in the developed world and need permits you need to get this properly engineered prior to starting work anyway. Really, internet forum posts won't impress the plans examiner. 

The information you provide makes it clear you really don't understand the issues involved. Really, you need to have someone who does understand structure look at it. You can describe things but, that "unimportant" thing that you may not have even noticed may be the difference.


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## Chris Johnson

Antropovsky said:


> This house is 35' x 20' approx.
> 
> The floor joists are on 24' centres, and run the 35' length.




Something is not right...bring in an engineer


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## Antropovsky

jlsconstruction said:


> Impossible to tell without seeing what's above it. Just wondering, is this the same house you already asked about?


haha Yes it is. Sorry I tried to stay away, but I suspected that the quoted 2X12's wouldn't be enough over that span, and had to verify with you guys.


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## jlsconstruction

Pictures are here

http://www.contractortalk.com/f3/taking-down-wall-1920-era-home-152549/


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## Antropovsky

Chris Johnson said:


> Something is not right...bring in an engineer


Well we are now making sure we contact contractors with enough credentials to confirm whether it is load bearing or not. 

I should add though that the joists aren't running the entire 35' without any splices over girders. 

There is 3 girders, spaced approx 11', 10', and 8' feet apart. The floor Joists are spliced at varying spots at these area.


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## hdavis

The bottom line is if there is no structural element above the wall that's tied to the wall, it isn't structural. From your description, it sounds like there isn't.


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## kiteman

What I wanna know now is if he has 20' cj's


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## greg24k

Joist change direction from floor to floor, you see that from time to time in older houses and the house I am remodeling right now has the same issue.
Open it up and take a look if that wall is carrying anything above or if second floor joists rest on it... or like Andy said it could carry a portion of the roof assembly. 

They did funny things back then when they framed, have to watch it.

Good luck


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## music9704

ScipioAfricanus said:


> It is possible that the wall is carrying the load of purlins for the roof rafters.
> 
> Just surmising.
> 
> Andy.


I agree. just because most of the floor joist run with the wall, doesn't mean all of them do. How old is the house? 24" OC, sounds like TJI's or floor truss. You will need to know. What happens if the truss hanger on a joist above the wall. I'd find a way to look in the floor. If it meant cutting a whole o well. Floor truss may be ok while TJI's not. It all depends. Maybe it's balloon framed, with a wall sitting above holding a dormer wall. It could still run with the joist, looking as non bearing.


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