# help me price this.



## fastg60 (Feb 20, 2006)

what would you price this job.
new referral customer in a new house, has potential for more work (deck, basement remodel)

painting 1 coat, walls only (no trim) 3 12x12 bedrooms (8' ceilings).
tile in 2 <20 sq.ft. baths and a 65 sq.ft. kitchen.

i'm used to working for my "regulars" in their 6k sq.ft. homes that keep running lists and pay by the hour (gotta love 'em!), so bidding is something i'm learning.

thanks for the help guys!


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

ok i will give it a shot just to see what the guys think. Deck 2,000 dollars. Basement remodel 3-5000 depending on how fancy. Painting the 3 bedrooms 600dollars. Finally 2 20 square foot baths 1500 dollars and 65 square foot kitchen 2500 dollars. Definately run those numbers buy the big boys here.


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## fastg60 (Feb 20, 2006)

that seems a little steep on the baths. i'm looking just for labor pricing. what do you normally charge for toilet R&R and stripping linoleum?


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

careful you don,t pay for an education here. shoot the bath floors @ 750.00 ea if simple/includes reset stools to existing supplys. basment finish @ 35.00 per ft /less flooring. there are no 2000.00 decks. treated framing, s4s cedar finish simple rail, simple height 33.00 per ft.


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## sage (Feb 3, 2005)

Not nearly enough Info to really help.


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## sage (Feb 3, 2005)

Maybe if you normally work hourly and manage to stay in buis, then just figure how long you think its gonna take and apply your hourly. Plus material of course.


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

go dart said:


> careful you don,t pay for an education here. shoot the bath floors @ 750.00 ea if simple/includes reset stools to existing supplys. basment finish @ 35.00 per ft /less flooring. there are no 2000.00 decks. treated framing, s4s cedar finish simple rail, simple height 33.00 per ft.


I ask a guy how much to put a deck on the back of my house he gave bid of 2,000. 33.00 per foot. When i get home i'm going to measure and multiply.:clap:


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## sage (Feb 3, 2005)

747 said:


> I ask a guy how much to put a deck on the back of my house he gave bid of 2,000. 33.00 per foot. When i get home i'm going to measure and multiply.:clap:


So you have a 60 square foot deck?


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

This could be the most retarded thread I've ever read on this board.

How can anyone say "$2,000 for a deck, $3,500 for a basement" without any details? I am assuming that was a joke...(because those prices sure are).

If you have to go onto a public internet message board to ask "how much", you have no business bidding a job, let alone performing the work. It's guys like you that give the good contractors a bad name because you go in offering the world for a song, only to realize that you f-d up, are loosing money, and head for hills leaving the customer stranded.

Sometimes I really wonder....


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

It was kind of a joke. I just threw those numbers out there to see how far you guys would think i was off. Oh as far as the deck i got a bid on. I'm 99 percent sure it was 18 feet wide by 12 feet long. I'm now thinking the guy tried to highjack me wanting 2,000 dollars.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> new referral customer in a new house, has potential for more work


Careful now....

I just love it when people say stuff like that..."If you give me a good deal on THIS job, I'll call you first when it comes time to do the deck and the basement"

To which I say: " ummm....OK:thumbup: ....."



"...BUUUUUUT...I'll have to go back and work up the bids for the basement and the deck, and when I come back and you sign all 3 of them, I can proly find ya a little discount...how's that sound? "


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> I'm 99 percent sure it was 18 feet wide by 12 feet long.


At $33/sq. ft., that would be $7128...maybe you're hi-jacking him 747:jester: .


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

gregs right which is why i posted sq ft prices which are ONLY A SHORTCUT TO BALLPARKING. buy some estimating stuff and READ. walt steppleworth will teach you all you need to price in 30 sec. (cost x .67) add the two. also remodeling magazine print a cost vs value once a year that can be a good sales tool


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## fastg60 (Feb 20, 2006)

Greg Di said:


> If you have to go onto a public internet message board to ask "how much", you have no business bidding a job, let alone performing the work. It's guys like you that give the good contractors a bad name because you go in offering the world for a song, only to realize that you f-d up, are loosing money, and head for hills leaving the customer stranded.
> 
> Sometimes I really wonder....


well, apparently you have forgotten what it felt like, starting out on your own. thanks for the help.


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

fastg60 said:


> well, apparently you have forgotten what it felt like, starting out on your own. thanks for the help.


The number one rule of estimating is IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT OTHER PEOPLE CHARGE! You have to charge what YOU need to charge to stay in business. If you don't, you will be "wearing an orange apron" (props to Bob Kovacs) sooner than later.

For instance, my tile sub charges me $5.50 per s.f. of ceramic tile. A 20 sf floor costs about $120 bucks. So, if you asked him how much for that floor, you'd be broke. Why can HE charge $5.50 and make a living? Because:

1) he is a specialist. That 20 sf floor is done in under an hour
2) he doesn't have to dick around with the customer, plumbing, access, material. Everything is ready to go when he gets there.
3) Volume. While the floor was only $120 bucks, he also did the shower stall and mud job.

My point is that YOU will get screwed by asking how much to charge and frankly, if I were bidding on the same job as you, my price would be closer to $800 for that 20 sf floor because I am aware of overhead, profit and what it takes to maintain a successful business. So the HO is now comparing a guy with no clue as to how much the job actually costs because he asked someone else how much to charge against a guy who knows the exact costs, pays insurance, will be there next year because he makes a profit etc...

POORLY ESTIMATING BIDS HURTS OUR ENTIRE INDUSTRY BECAUSE IT GIVES THE CUSTOMER AN UNREALISTIC EXPECTATION OF WHAT A JOB SHOULD COST.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Greg, you are perfect example of the 20/80 rule. :notworthy


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

20/80 rule?


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

Greg Di said:


> The number one rule of estimating is IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT OTHER PEOPLE CHARGE! You have to charge what YOU need to charge to stay in business. If you don't, you will be "wearing an orange apron" (props to Bob Kovacs) sooner than later.


Wow- my "orange apron" line is being quoted by others- maybe it's time to take the show on the road and start making money with my concept.....lol.

Bob


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## Scott Young (Dec 23, 2005)

i am new to these forums so i hope i don't offend. well maybe:whistling 

fastg60, kudos on trying to learn the business. is that manly to say...."kudos", i digress.:jester: it is hard to figure out what to bid and how to charge. i have been at this only for about ten years for myself. i had always worked for someone else who bid and earned the big bucks. i floundered for a while until i came up with a method to my madness. i remember when i was doing some stuff under one of the other guys that he had "resources" he would check before ever giving a bid. or even an estimation or for that matter a ball park. he simply didn't bring money into it until he was able to put a pencil to it. that was for the jobs we would work on. now if a lady came from next door and asked him to fix a door that wouldn't shut, he would tell her, he would look at on his lunch or after work. he took his nail bag with him and fixed the door quickly and then priced it accordingly, but those times are always gravy, and he didn't always charge depending onthe circumstances.

His sources were,

1. figuring availability of material and cost to deliver either us or them.
2. figuring clean up
3. figuring the cost of material and then the cost per sf, lf, sq, total install, etc. 
4. the labor for such thing he took from a book that he had comprised like a flat book.

i could never figure it out how he came up with those labor prices, but they were competitive with all the other folks in town some time higher and sometimes cheaper. i use some thing similar put out by rsmeans. reed construction data. i went to it a couple of years ago simply for the fact that it is in every box store you go in and it seems my customers refer to it as the industry standard. i bid a job for a fellow, it was high. he pulls out this contractor's pricing guide and told me i was way out of the ball park. since that time i have run into at least four customers who will admit that they bought the book just to make sure they aren't getting cheated. it is like their "ace in the hole". i use the raw data and adjust the figure for my needs sometimes its higher and sometimes its lower depending on my own personal circumstances.

there are a couple of other books on estimation and pricing, but for now this book is where you need to start as far as getting a hard figure to work from. you won't loose your shirt using the figures in there. you can survive long enough to learn better to adjust.


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Greg Di said:


> The number one rule of estimating is IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT OTHER PEOPLE CHARGE! You have to charge what YOU need to charge to stay in business. If you don't, you will be "wearing an orange apron" (props to Bob Kovacs) sooner than later.
> 
> For instance, my tile sub charges me $5.50 per s.f. of ceramic tile. A 20 sf floor costs about $120 bucks. So, if you asked him how much for that floor, you'd be broke. Why can HE charge $5.50 and make a living? Because:
> 
> ...


Right on man.


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## BlkBart54 (Oct 22, 2005)

Greg Di said:


> This could be the most retarded thread I've ever read on this board.
> 
> How can anyone say "$2,000 for a deck, $3,500 for a basement" without any details? I am assuming that was a joke...(because those prices sure are).
> 
> ...


 I,m with Greg, Why should craftsmen/contractors who have spent years and decades refining their business educate people who haven,t paid their dues. Its bad enough having unemployed , unfinished apprentices bidding against you, imported mexicans from Utah, Colorado, Texas ect.., now this board is suppying prices to anyone with a pickup truck and a dog. Nothing against you young qualified craftsmen starting out. We want to help you for a variety of reasons, one of them being not wanting you to bring down the price of work. If you,re qualified and take pride i,m all for you, if all you are is a new truck and a nice haircut and khakis ,get a real estate license and leave us dedicated craftsmen ,trades alone. Shouldn,t there be some qualification for the people we help. If i,ve offended anyone , i just hope its not the people that deserve to benefit from the vast pool of knowledge here. This a great site and some of the contributors are not only eloquent in their responses, but geniuses in their trades. A couple of them should be writing novels , and i,m sure they know who they are. God bless everyone. (HIRE THE BEST AND THE REST) Quality pays for itself"


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

fastg60 said:


> new referral customer in a new house, has potential for more work (deck, basement remodel)


jproffer hit the nail on the head. One of THE first things I learned (the hard way) when I started out was, never price a job based on "future work" potential. If the customer wants a deck and new doors all at once, price the whole job. If they want to do things one a time, price the job to ensure your profit for that job and that job only. Old customer line translated into contractor talk..."If you do this job for me for cheap, I'll have plenty more work for you to do for cheap and lose money on."


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

BlkBart54 said:


> ...now this board is suppying prices to anyone with a pickup truck and a dog.


Now you have to have a pickup AND a dog! No wonder more young people aren't going into the trades anymore, if we keep raising the entry requirements like this pretty soon we will have no one to blame but ourselves.


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Now you have to have a pickup AND a dog! No wonder more young people aren't going into the trades anymore, if we keep raising the entry requirements like this pretty soon we will have no one to blame but ourselves.


Don't forget the 4' level in the gunrack in the back window- that's what separates the "real" contractors from the wannabees......

Bob


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## mattp (Apr 5, 2006)

what's a level?


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## dayspring (Mar 4, 2006)

my gunrack keeps fallin' out. Guess I need to run a couple drywall screws in it!


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## lxdollarsxl (Apr 13, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Now you have to have a pickup AND a dog! No wonder more young people aren't going into the trades anymore, if we keep raising the entry requirements like this pretty soon we will have no one to blame but ourselves.


Mike is right, the attitude of some to helping others who are just starting out, especially when they are not competing against you in your area of work is not the right attitude. This forum, i thought, was for contractors old and new to get a bit of help and to give it if they can - apart from some of the comical remarks. Also helping someone with prices without sarcasm, should be the way to go.


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## jzube (Apr 22, 2006)

I had a boss tell me one time, "If you arent f`ing anything up, you arent learning anything!" "and your learning alot!!!" I also tried to ask what to charge because i was new and ignorant to what it really took to do a job. So i made some big mistakes and learned from them (and i`m still learning) So thats where i was f`ing up. Point is, you can ask all the people in the world what you should charge to do a job, but the specs on most jobs are different from others, and so are the workers. You have to know how long it will take you, what you have to pay yourself, your guys, uncle sam, and your specific overhead. All of this and still try to be "competitive" in your pricing. Its a fine line.


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## fox builders (Jul 26, 2006)

*pricing*

The first thing I noticed is client dangled the maybe more work later 
which means do this one for next to nothing and I'll call the next num nuts with an ad in the paper next time I need something done


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

When a customer pulls this you up the price by 15 to 25% more cause if they are looking for Let's make a Deal let them hire the knob out of the paper and tell them good luck and have a nice day.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

i would think that by asking how much he will be near everyone and not drag the price down because he doesnt know so he charges what he was making before going out on his own.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

kevjob said:


> i would think that by asking how much he will be near everyone and not drag the price down because he doesnt know so he charges what he was making before going out on his own.


 
My thoughts exactly. Same situation here. I don't want to go out and be one of the lowballers. A lot of assumptions being made when people trying to start a business ask for help on pricing. Not wrong all the time I would think but not right all the time either. I like to research these forums and the different estimators online, figure my requirements, and go from there. One estimator I have checked a few times just seems unbelievable in my part of Alabama. Please refrain from any Bama jokes :whistling. Jk'ing, too old to get too hot about it now. It holds true that different areas demand different prices. This would also be relevant to goals and results expected. But, for someone seriously wanting to be in a business, it can be hard to find out what the local rates are. And if they make it, better than being referred to as maggots as some on here have referred to their hired help. If they don't? Hey , they gave it a shot.


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## sausagebarn (Sep 9, 2006)

I can relate...
It's a bit hard to figure pricing when you are not acustomed to biding. I remember those days well. 
When I was starting out I never thought about what someone else was charging and you shouldn't worry either. There will always be someone out there that'll do it for less but that is not what anyone wants (least of all someone paying for services on thier home). 
Charge what you need to make the whole thing work and you'll be charging what YOU should be. 
Good luck. 
I hope you get that job...and many more!


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

> A 20 sf floor costs about $120 bucks.





> That 20 sf floor is done in under an hour





> my price would be closer to $800 for that 20 sf floor because I am aware of overhead, profit and what it takes to maintain a successful business.


So oh dictates about $700.00 per hour for bringing the ho and tile setter together??



> GIVES THE CUSTOMER AN UNREALISTIC EXPECTATION OF WHAT A JOB SHOULD COST.


Starting to get a much clearer veiw of what that actually means.


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