# Bubbling toilet



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

On a condo I am renovating for a rental prop. I don't know the conditions of the plumbing, it's a foreclosure, for all I know the idiot loser who was kicked out poured cement down the drains!

The toilet on the basement floor is slow to flush, didn't go down at all, I snaked it with a 25 foot snake, but all it did was drain slowly, nothing came out on the end of the snake. Got it to flush maybe 3-4 times then it's back again to not going down. Upstairs toilet right above this one when you flush it the water in this toilet goes up and down a bit, plus bubbles come up into the bowl.

What's going on? What next?


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

> I snaked it with a 25 foot snake


A 25 ft snake is not a sewer snake. Go get the right size snake and run it all the way out. Also verify the vent stack is clear. If you are sucessful in running the snake out yank that WC and pour in water from a 5 gal bucket. 

LOL cement down the drain on the way out the door.

Don't ya just love people?


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Yeah, that is a partially blocked sewer, it needs to be rodded to the tie in to the city main.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Okay, a 50 footer is the answer then? 

I'm curious why the 2 other toilets upstairs flush without a problem, I would assume they would be backed up to, or maybe the runs from the toilets are higher so they slowly drain enough for them to flush normally?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> I'm curious why the 2 other toilets upstairs flush without a problem,


Because they're using the pipework between the upstairs toilet and the stoppage as a "tank".


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Okay, a 50 footer is the answer then?
> 
> I'm curious why the 2 other toilets upstairs flush without a problem, I would assume they would be backed up to, or maybe the runs from the toilets are higher so they slowly drain enough for them to flush normally?


Pace it off from the C.O. to the city main, I doubt fifty feet will make it. When I did that sort of work we always carried at least 150' of cable.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

One of my kids tossed a bath toy down the toilet once (my recollection was a sailboat)and it got stuck in the gooseneck of the toilet itself. Not that anyone really wants to, but have you checked for anything stuck inside of the actual toilet?


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

framerman said:


> One of my kids tossed a bath toy down the toilet once (my recollection was a sailboat)and it got stuck in the gooseneck of the toilet itself. Not that anyone really wants to, but have you checked for anything stuck inside of the actual toilet?


The fact that the toilet directly above it affects the water level of the toilet in question rules this out.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I took the toilet off, nothing in the toilet.

I went to Lowes and Home Depot to see if I could get a longer snake. Seems like 25 feet and under is like $50 and over 25 feet is $350!

I figured to just spend the money on the snake instead of the rooter man and have the snake if every needed, but damn that's expensive.


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## MechanicalDVR (Jun 23, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> I took the toilet off, nothing in the toilet.
> 
> I went to Lowes and Home Depot to see if I could get a longer snake. Seems like 25 feet and under is like $50 and over 25 feet is $350!
> 
> I figured to just spend the money on the snake instead of the rooter man and have the snake if every needed, but damn that's expensive.


A hand snake will never do the retrieving job that a power snake would do. You should have rented a snake with an assortment of cutter heads. I have had similar clogs that acted just like that, the tough ones turned out to be cut offs of the sewer piping. Small rings that were cut off when they set the flanges on the finish. Do you know anyone with a "See Snake" so you can take a look down the line?


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

MechanicalDVR said:


> A hand snake will never do the retrieving job that a power snake would do. You should have rented a snake with an assortment of cutter heads. I have had similar clogs that acted just like that, the tough ones turned out to be cut offs of the sewer piping. Small rings that were cut off when they set the flanges on the finish. Do you know anyone with a "See Snake" so you can take a look down the line?


Ya they got all kinds of good heads. The best in my oppion is the hook head. Where it has a actually hook on the end. When you reverse using that one you will definately have tree roots attached when coming backup the riser.:clap:

Ps. 350 dollars that outradgeous my roto rooter guy only charged 95.:thumbsup: He had a nice one which was manual feed. The auto feed you have to watch because if it hits something that snake will bite your arm if close. My plumber has a scar on this forearm where his sewer snake bit him because it hit something and his is auto foward and auto reverse. Instead of manual.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Mike, you're in over your head. No offense, but get someone out there that has real experience in this. Several things could be the problem.

Bad vent.
Bad bowl.
Bad parts in tank not introducing water to bowl fast enough.
Partial clog in building drain.
Partial clog in building sewer.

The water level moving when another toilet is flushed is not that significant. The fact that it bubbles and or gurgles means a vent problem or a vent problem caused by a clog/partial clog.

Get you an esspert in drainiology and give dat place a good case of 'crap flows downhill'.


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## MechanicalDVR (Jun 23, 2007)

Double-A said:


> Mike, you're in over your head. No offense, but get someone out there that has real experience in this. Several things could be the problem.
> 
> Bad vent.
> Bad bowl.
> ...


 
No offense but a toilet doesn't need a vent to flush. Yes it needs one by code but isn't necessary to clear the bowl.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> No offense but a toilet doesn't need a vent to flush. Yes it needs one by code but isn't necessary to clear the bowl.


This is true, a toilet is a true siphon, adding air weakens the flush.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Double-A said:


> Mike, you're in over your head. No offense, but get someone out there that has real experience in this. Several things could be the problem.


I know, I'm hard headed, so I'm about 75% ready to give up and pay some damn fellow trades man to fix it for me! I know what I need to do but I'm not ready to admit it yet, I'm gonna throw one more try at it if I can find a 50ft snakey cheap. It just seemed like I was right at the problem as my 25 footer ran out of line. I swear it's a GI Joe doll in there!


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

MechanicalDVR said:


> No offense but a toilet doesn't need a vent to flush. Yes it needs one by code but isn't necessary to clear the bowl.





KillerToiletSpi said:


> This is true, a toilet is a true siphon, adding air weakens the flush.


I think it all depends on the type of toilet, but I must say, for most non-blow out style toilets, you need a vent behind the toilet or the flush can stall. 

Think about it for a moment, you're introducing 1.5 - 3.5 gallons of water, or more into a 3 or 4 inch pipe. This displaces air in the pipe, and that air has to move someplace. Unless the toilet is well elevated above the drain, it cannot produce enough pressure to compress the air column below it (remember, .45 psi per foot is what a water column produces just from its own weight). 

Flushing to a shallow drain that is horizontal? Perhaps, but that air still has to go someplace. In 4" pipe, we're displacing 1 foot of air for every .66 gallons of water, so 5.3 feet of air for a 3.5 gallon flush. In 3" pipe we're displacing 1 foot for every .38 gallons, so that is 9.21 feet.

That air has to go someplace or the back pressure will stall the flush, siphon be damned.


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

> The water level moving when another toilet is flushed is not that significant.


hhmmmm, well without knowing how much it's moving, I would still keep that in my mind when trouble shooting. 

And Mike, seriously go rent one. 100 ft or 150, cost about 60 ish for the day. But I will warn you.....keep your mouth closed when rooting it out!!!!


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Double-A said:


> I think it all depends on the type of toilet, but I must say, for most non-blow out style toilets, you need a vent behind the toilet or the flush can stall.
> 
> Think about it for a moment, you're introducing 1.5 - 3.5 gallons of water, or more into a 3 or 4 inch pipe. This displaces air in the pipe, and that air has to move someplace. Unless the toilet is well elevated above the drain, it cannot produce enough pressure to compress the air column below it (remember, .45 psi per foot is what a water column produces just from its own weight).
> 
> ...


There is enough air in the empty pipe to create the siphon, once it is created, it doesn't stop until there is nothing left to siphon, you don't need air once the siphon is created. A blocked sewer will actually pull the water out of toilet bowls as it slowly drains overnight, because a perfect siphon exists.


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

> but I must say, for most non-blow out style toilets, you need a vent behind the toilet or the flush can stall.
> 
> Think about it for a moment, you're introducing 1.5 - 3.5 gallons of water, or more into a 3 or 4 inch pipe. This displaces air in the pipe, and that air has to move someplace.


 
You do realize the 3-4" sewer line is tied to the main drain, which in turn has other drains connected to it, which has other vents to it. There IS venting available to displace.

Now if your talking about having NO vent for a WC, I personally have never seen that...I'd like to one day, but only for laughing purposes. So think in theory...This is not a pressurized system. The air being displaced has only one place to go, back to the 6" (or whatever size) city tie in. The little amount of air actually being displaced will enter the main sewer. Or the flush will suck the trap (wc) "dry". Water weight about 9 lbs per gallon, it will flush.


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## MechanicalDVR (Jun 23, 2007)

I said a toilet doesn't need a vent from experience. I have seen it in houses and buildings where there should have been but they were never piped in and I was the one to go back and install them and all the toilets and urinals flushed just fine. I have also seen premanufactured "engineered" homes were the local plumbing inspectors threw fits because the toilets had no vents, the 2 1/2" pvc that the toilets were connected to were wet vented by the lav and kitchen sink but they had AAV's instead of through the roof piping. Years ago when I was traveling the world, I saw a toilet just attached to a drain line more than once and was amazed to see how well they worked.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

JamesNLA said:


> hhmmmm, well without knowing how much it's moving, I would still keep that in my mind when trouble shooting.
> 
> And Mike, seriously go rent one. 100 ft or 150, cost about 60 ish for the day. But I will warn you.....keep your mouth closed when rooting it out!!!!


ohhh, rental! Hadn't thought of that. Haven't been to the rental store in a while. That's a good idea. I might just go that route. :thumbsup:

Sorry if I seem reluctant to just give some dough to a good service plumber, but I just feel a landlords not really a landlord until you snake at least one toilet in your life.:laughing:


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## Tmrrptr (Mar 22, 2007)

I dug one of the Masters of the Universe out of a toilet a few years back.
...in pieces. little plastic guy did NOT want to come out of there !

Just to make things more fun... it was necessary to support the toilet w two chairs, and pull the guy out from the bottom...

And Mom says, "Oh, he's been missing for a few days, or so."
r


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

Our toilet was acting slow like that, everyone swore that nothing went in there that shouldn't. Finally pulled the thing and found the teenage daughters toothbrush in there. I guess she didn't notice she was missing her toothbrush? For over a week? Anyway, I washed it and gave it back to her.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*Toilets are built in S-traps, self siphoning.*
*Thats why they're made to slowly refill the bowl after the flush.*
*The reason for a vent on a toilet isn't to enhance it's flush at all, the actual reason mentioned by Mike, the gurgling when other toilets are flushed, this could slowly empty the trap as other toilets are flushed.*
*Mike, let us know the outcome.*


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## MechanicalDVR (Jun 23, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Sorry if I seem reluctant to just give some dough to a good service plumber, but I just feel a landlords not really a landlord until you snake at least one toilet in your life.:laughing:


Don't get any on you and don't chew your nails after work.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> ohhh, rental! Hadn't thought of that. Haven't been to the rental store in a while. That's a good idea. I might just go that route. :thumbsup:
> 
> Sorry if I seem reluctant to just give some dough to a good service plumber, but I just feel a landlords not really a landlord until you snake at least one toilet in your life.:laughing:


Take pictures when you're done. You don't know what handling a 3/4" or 7/8" thick, 100 feet long monster is until you've run a sewer machine.

Personally, I would leave it to the pros. Those machines can snatch an arm off faster than you can say, "Oh, shi..."


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

Double-A said:


> Take pictures when you're done. ....


*Hell, I want pics during.*


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

It's done, sorry guys no pics, still have my fingers, no real drama at all to speak of. I rented a 100 foot electric snake for about $30.00. Seemed to do the trick. Don't know what was in there, never found that out, but it flushes good now and the when the upstairs toilets flush no bubbles. The water still moves a little bit, but no bubles now.

That will be my first and last toilet snake. I've got it out of my system, I'll be calling in a pro from now on. But at least now I know what it's all about.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> That will be my first and last toilet snake. I've got it out of my system, I'll be calling in a pro from now on. But at least now I know what it's all about.


*Dam, just when I was hoping to add a new drain cleaning sub to the rolodex....*


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

lol,

Nope sorry. That was a nasty, stinky mess and a pain in the ass. The guys that do that work are earning their money, every penny of it.:thumbsup:


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## NomoPlumber (Sep 25, 2007)

This is serious stuff. Through forensic pathology, they were able to find that SARS was spread through trap seal leaks, which is what is occurring when bubbles come through the trap in the toilet, or any other trap. Guess where the bubbles come from. The vent stack. Guess whats in the vent stack? Anything that is going down the drain. The solution, a Positive Air Pressure Attenuator, with Air Admittance valves. Contact Studor at 800-888-8312.


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