# Silence after giving quotes.



## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

A lot of people dont respond back to my quotes. Price shopping, just wanted a number, or sticker shock?
Any thoughts?


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Do you follow up?


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## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

get a hair cut:clap:


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

You've got to sell jobs, not bid them. Bidding is a race to the bottom and will take your business nowhere.


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## Ohio painter (Dec 4, 2011)

I include a cover letter with all quotes / estimates. I use it to explain about insurance coverage, workers comp coverage, being registered in our county and what the customer can expect from my company. 

I think it helps but still there are times of silence, some people just want the lowest price. 

I think my style works for me, I am not a salesman, besides if I gave them a sales pitch in person and they said "ok when can you start " I would then have to explain they have to wait. Hmm that doesn't seem to work too well I think. 

I think rather than wondering why the silence ask yourself what is your rate of securing jobs vs estimates out? That may reassure you that what you are doing is working or room to improve.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

You should be delivering your quotes in person. Gives you a chance to overcome objections.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

I've never understood the concept of "phoning it in" and expecting results... if you don't have a price list and the ability to quote something while you are at the customers house and have to go back to prepare a proposal, why in the world would you just mail it to them? YOU are familiar with your contract because you work with it all the time... they aren't... one of the reasons to meet with them is to go over the details and remove the anxiety of them trying to decipher your contract other than looking at the bottom number and CLOSE THE DEAL and remove them from the market...

I don't understand the concept of going through all that effort to just mail it to them and hope for the best... if you are going to close the deal, you have to have an appointment anyway, so why would you not MEET with them to go over the proposal and INCREASE your close rate... if they have questions/concerns/objections THIS is the time to address that and give them a sense of comfort and make the process easy for them to decide to use YOU...

People will sit on average 2-3 appointments... who wants to spend all that time doing that? You're only meeting with them on average two times, can you imagine them having to do that with MULTIPLE contractors? You want to cover all the bases and make it easy so they don't have to do that...

.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

So what, send a follow up email if you want to test the waters.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

Anybody can do this - just watch a few shows on HGTV.

Homeowners can only see the surface - the shiny stuff and the price tag.

I compare it to a body of water, a lake.

Sure most look the same on top but what about what lies beneath? Is there a strong ecosystem underneath the surface for that lake to thrive? For the fish to be strong?

Sure there's a couple lakes that are pretty obvious they are doomed, which would be the complete hacks out there in comparison.

If the homeowner doesn't understand that there's systems and procedures in place by your company to ensure a long life span for completed project - everything looks the same to them.

They won't understand the value they are getting with you even if your proposal is a few dollars more.

Once they understand - which is YOUR job to explain - then price is not an issue anymore.

If price happens to still be the deciding factor then most likely those aren't the homeowner you want to work for anyways.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

KAP said:


> I've never understood the concept of "phoning it in" and expecting results... if you don't have a price list and the ability to quote something while you are at the customers house and have to go back to prepare a proposal, why in the world would you just mail it to them? YOU are familiar with your contract because you work with it all the time... they aren't... one of the reasons to meet with them is to go over the details and remove the anxiety of them trying to decipher your contract other than looking at the bottom number and CLOSE THE DEAL and remove them from the market...
> 
> I don't understand the concept of going through all that effort to just mail it to them and hope for the best... if you are going to close the deal, you have to have an appointment anyway, so why would you not MEET with them to go over the proposal and INCREASE your close rate... if they have questions/concerns/objections THIS is the time to address that and give them a sense of comfort and make the process easy for them to decide to use YOU...
> 
> ...


How can I have a price list of custom one of a kind stuff, usually that I've never made before?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I don't get how people have time to deliver quotes in person. I'm up at 6am and work till 6-7pm most nights and weekends I'm doing work on my own place and ain't using that time to run around. 

I struggle to even find time to do the quotes let alone deliver them in person. This week I have priced 5 jobs and it's been hard enough just locking in time with customer to meet with them then try and meet again to give the quote.


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## BradingCon (Dec 17, 2010)

Interesting topic. When I was beyond slammed about 6 months ago, I started emailing/mailing quotes out as a way to save the time of doing a second meeting. The above scenario is exactly what I received. People would just not reply and I would never hear a word from them. Basically I was trying to get out of actually selling the job and my close rate suffered terribly. 

Now, I am much more choosy about which jobs i actually work up a proposal for. If it's a job that fits my parameters I do an initial meeting with the customer. I then work up a proposal package. Then, i hand deliver the proposal to the customer. If they want to say no they have to do it to my face so I can address any issues with them and begin selling my company on why they should go with us.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

I try to get some info when I'm meeting with them...what time frame you are looking at....when you plan to approve an estimate, etc.

I look at it this way...I took whatever time it took to create a professional and fair estimate and I expect some courtesy in return....like letting me know where everything stands after a reasonable amount of time.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

If you're shopping at K Mart and find something priced $5 higher than the same thing at Walmart, do you go to the store manager and tell him you're going to buy elsewhere and why? 

It's just the nature of business. A potential client owes you nothing.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Leo G said:


> How can I have a price list of custom one of a kind stuff, usually that I've never made before?


I believe you you misread his post. There's an "if".


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Tinstaafl said:


> If you're shopping at K Mart and find something priced $5 higher than the same thing at Walmart, do you go to the store manager and tell him you're going to buy elsewhere and why?
> 
> It's just the nature of business. A potential client owes you nothing.


I don't view it that way. If I prepared an estimate, I think they owe me a simple yes or no and why or why not.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Robie said:


> I don't view it that way. If I prepared an estimate, I think they owe me a simple yes or no and why or why not.


That's small town thinking. We live in an increasingly NYC sort of world.

You want an answer, you need to go get it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Also the times I have hand delivered a quote they never decide then and there if they are getting me to do it. It's always an answer like "let us compare the quotes" "thankyou you will hear from us soon" "we will get back to you" etc 

I have hardly any problems with email quotes though. I would say out of the last 20 jobs I have quoted only one didn't get back to me via email and she was the only one who didn't get me to do the work. Kind of knew this would happen though as its not the kind of neighborhood I normally work in and thru wanted the cheapest and lowest quality everything. When I chased her up she said my price was 3x what she wanted to spend yet material alone was more than her budget. What pisses me off though is the ones that tell you there is not budget then you get a reply on email of that's way over their budget! Would rather get them replys by email than in person.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Tinstaafl said:


> That's small town thinking. We live in an increasingly NYC sort of world.
> 
> You want an answer, you need to go get it.


I still live in a small town. :laughing:

I do get answers...I call them and ask them what's up if they don't call me first.

I hate loose ends.


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## BAREIN (Dec 26, 2007)

I find that many times people are using you to make sure their already chosen contractor is in line, or being honest about something. Free estimates are many times free questions answered. Sometimes you can tell when it's happening.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> What pisses me off though is the ones that tell you there is not budget then you get a reply on email of that's way over their budget!


BINGO! Couldn't agree more!!


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## TaylorMadeAB (Nov 11, 2014)

There are jobs that I email the estimate for, and ones I will only deliver in person. It all depends on the job, the people, and the timeline.
For example I'm hand delivering an estimate for a bathroom tonight. If I emailed it I'm fairly certain they would approve it. I can't start till August though, and they are anxious to get started ( weird hey?) In this case I need to explain why waiting for me would be a good idea.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Leo G said:


> How can I have a price list of custom one of a kind stuff, usually that I've never made before?


There are exceptions to every rule...

But we also do custom, and do have a price list...


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

cedarboarder said:


> A lot of people dont respond back to my quotes. Price shopping, just wanted a number, or sticker shock?
> Any thoughts?


Spend a little more time qualifying, and if they aren't prepared to spend the money, don't write the proposal.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

KAP said:


> Leo G said:
> 
> 
> > How can I have a price list of custom one of a kind stuff, usually that I've never made before?
> ...


There are certain size and complex projects that you're not going to be able to quote and sign at the kitchen table with a price list. 

I thought about this topic a lot after the previous thread from a while back. There are definitely things that can be price listed, especially if you limit the options. But there are many things that require days or weeks to quote.


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> You've got to sell jobs, not bid them. Bidding is a race to the bottom and will take your business nowhere.


Have you been reading Seth Godin books, or is your wording just a happy coincidence?


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

People are effed up, I've dealt with this the past 26 yrs. I've left less than polite messages then they call me ready to start as if they never received the message. 

I've got a customer of mine now that I've been going back and forth with since July of last year. She contacted me 2 weeks ago that she's ready to start. I've text her 4 times, emailed her twice, left one message. Did she die? Probably not but WTF.

I normally get a response on an estimate, it's the customers that I already have the job with that are my issue. 

I'm starting to feel like Rodney Dangerfield "I don't get no respect".


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

We charge for the scope of work and proposal, separate from any drawings. It is very effective, and as the market is decent we will continue the practice. It keeps crickets at bay for the most par, you will get a call back for a proposal that has been paid for generally. 

As for following up in person, I understand the concept, but it is not the fit for all companies, nor is pricing on the spot. Probably a good plan to do so if you can set up your operation that way though. 

We email the scope of work and proposal, and ask them to review it, and then set up a time to sit down at the office or their home and go over it in detail together before signing. All of the projects we sell are this way, all the projects we are building now, ranging from a $700k+ custom to a $27k bathroom to a $1200.00 door replacement were all sold the same way. Just something to keep in mind, everyones methods will not be the same but may yield the same results.

I have always been envious of operations that can bid and sell in a single meeting, but for many reasons we aren't set up to do this. For us, every project and therefore every scope of work is different, and detailed specific to the clients selections and choices, and we like to afford them the time to discuss the scope privately and prepare questions or changes prior to our meeting, as to save our time and theirs. 

We have plenty of "crickets" after initial ball parks, which is disheartening but I am used to it now :laughing: We have a good ratio of sales to proposals given though. It does seem to go in cycles for us, loose five in a row and win five in a row. The mark up allows for the wasted time on the ones we loose, so in theory it shouldn't bother us, but we aren't machines after all. 

I don't do a lot of sales anymore, but I am (knock on wood) eight for eight on actual proposals this year :thumbsup: So I am enjoying an upswing, but I am aware a downswing is on its way :laughing:

Just keep plugging, hoss. I am sure an upswing is on its way.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I like the ones that say the job should be ready in a few weeks ..We'll let you know something! 

Then they call back a few months later . After pissing off everyone else ...Then want someone there tomorrow !!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I email them a proposal, if I don't hear back I don't care. It is just one of the decks I'm not going to build. I have to NOT build some of them I just don't have the resources. That is just one I'm not doing.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> You've got to sell jobs, not bid them. Bidding is a race to the bottom and will take your business nowhere.


Perhaps just nomenclature, i take what you mean as low bid wins, competitive bidding. When i say bid i mean figure a job, nothing to do with whether there is competition on the bid. For me generally when i say bid, i mean provide with a fixed cost. 

I do agree for the most part competitive bidding is not for most guys, especially custom contractors, but i know several very successful contractors, old and young , that compete for every job and make money doing it. Like anything else i would imagine, a science there.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Perhaps just nomenclature, i take what you mean as low bid wins, competitive bidding. When i say bid i mean figure a job, nothing to do with whether there is competition on the bid. For me generally when i say bid, i mean provide with a fixed cost.
> 
> I do agree for the most part competitive bidding is not for most guys, especially custom contractors, but i know several very successful contractors, old and young , that compete for every job and make money doing it. Like anything else i would imagine, a science there.


I believe there is a difference between competitive bidding and just bidding to see who is the lowest.

A competitive bid is between a select group of like quality contractors and is basically selling yourself. Price may enter the equation but reputation and a rapport with clients is usually what takes it. Although I have lost a job or two to a coin toss.

Low bid is purely who has the lowest bid, which is often the guy with the Phd. in change orders.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

EricBrancard said:


> There are certain size and complex projects that you're not going to be able to quote and sign at the kitchen table with a price list.
> 
> I thought about this topic a lot after the previous thread from a while back. There are definitely things that can be price listed, especially if you limit the options. But there are many things that require days or weeks to quote.


As I said, exceptions to every rule... 

For the most part though, the majority of contractors can benefit from a price list... siding guys, roofing, rockers, painters, windows, decks, kitchens, baths, flooring, etc...

The idea is to remove them from the market while the other guy is working on a proposal... 

Change orders can handle any variations... 

.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

KAP said:


> As I said, exceptions to every rule...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's impossible for me to do a price list decks, kitchens and baths. There's just way to much material choice and different stages of build to make a price list that could even get close. Now if you like doing change Orders and make that money up ontop of the fixed price you gave you could do it. That's what a lot of contractors in this area do. They it wrong and make it up in charge orders. 

I have never had one job where my fixed price didn't include everything the customer expected. Had a few change orders for unforeseens but none for he scope of work it should have included.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> It's impossible for me to do a price list decks, kitchens and baths. There's just way to much material choice and different stages of build to make a price list that could even get close. Now if you like doing change Orders and make that money up ontop of the fixed price you gave you could do it. That's what a lot of contractors in this area do. They it wrong and make it up in charge orders.
> 
> I have never had one job where my fixed price didn't include everything the customer expected. Had a few change orders for unforeseens but none for he scope of work it should have included.


Price lists allow you to do exactly that and it's all in how you structure things... All a price list does is take what you use to calculate your proposal in the first place and standardize it... 

As an example, I'll take a kitchen I just sold... When we met to do the pricing, she talked about doing recessed lighting but hadn't made a decision on whether she wanted that or not, but we knew everything else and she was happy with the price. There's no reason to delay that close simply because she hadn't made a decision on the recessed lights... our structure is setup so no matter if she makes the decision now or later, she is still going to get a better price through us for electrical than if she decided to use someone else, because our subs pricing is built into our price list... Unless it's something outside of the price list, and that can of course happen, there's no reason to NOT close the deal because of an indecision like that... and a Change Order from the original scope is appropriate... 

Been doing one call close (average 33-42% close ratio first night) using price lists for years... and the nationals do it also... there is no one-call close without it... all a price list is what you use to develop your quote... 

It doesn't behoove you to keep looking up the price for individual products you use on a consistent basis... 

We adjust our pricing for materials quarterly... whether we go there the first time or have to go back for another visit, it's to remove them from the marketplace... 

We've removed the traditional obstacles that stop them from making a decision and focus on Company, Product, Service and Price... we measure and price right there and use to our advantage that others don't have a price list... the analogy we use is you going into a car dealership and whether you are buying the compact, mid-level or sedan what would you think of the dealership if they told you "let me get back to you with a proposal"... you mean, this is your industry and you don't KNOW what the costs are?

There are of course limits.... A full-scale remodel would be hard to close on the first night, but most trades a pricing list is a no-brainer... it's just filling in the data...

We tell them upfront... _ *"Folks, before we start, I'd like to put your mind at ease about something, we're not here to "sell" you anything... you won't feel any pressure tonight... As you'll see, we've been doing this a long time and we're prepared to measure, provide samples and go over all the things necessary for you to feel comfortable to make your own decision, and this will either makes sense or it doesn't... you don't have to worry about bogus sales techniques like "manager's discounts" or "specials" or raising the price artificially to lower it again to pressure you into a "sale"... Instead we practice pricing integrity and you will know tonight what's involved, who's doing the work, how we back it up and what it will cost... you won't have to negotiate the "best" price because we're going to give it you today... **"*​_(this also sets up that if they want to pay less, they have to give up something)...​If we don't close it the first night, there aren't too many calls where it goes past 2 visits... 

But whatever works for you and your company is what's most important...

.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

griz said:


> Low bid is purely who has the lowest bid, which is often the guy with the Phd. in change orders.


.....:laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I have a fixed way I price jobs. I don't have a fixed price for jobs.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

KAP said:


> EricBrancard said:
> 
> 
> > There are certain size and complex projects that you're not going to be able to quote and sign at the kitchen table with a price list.
> ...


Are you mostly doing kitchen/bath stuff or do you do large multiphase remodeling/renovation, additions, new construction, stuff that involves excavation, etc?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

KAP said:


> There are exceptions to every rule...
> 
> But we also do custom, and do have a price list...


So you have a price list for a vanity with 5 doors, 3 drawers that is 74 3/8" long and painted in "oh, we haven't decided yet" as a color?:laughing:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I do 3-6 proposals a day. Each one takes less than hour from initial meeting, to putting the price together, to going over the scope of work.

I hear back from about 30-35% even after following up.


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## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> I don't get how people have time to deliver quotes in person. I'm up at 6am and work till 6-7pm most nights and weekends I'm doing work on my own place and ain't using that time to run around.
> 
> I struggle to even find time to do the quotes let alone deliver them in person. This week I have priced 5 jobs and it's been hard enough just locking in time with customer to meet with them then try and meet again to give the quote.


I'm 100% with BCC on this one. This is my exact situation above. I BARELY have enough time to view the job, let alone sitting on my computer till midnight some nights figuring quotes. 

I've also had great luck with emailed quotes because I'm very proactive about following up. I usually call within a day or two and again after a week or two depending on the initial follow up's results. The majority of my quotes are sub trade work(roof replacements, vinyl siding with a deck, etc.) If the jobs were full renovations or additions with far more moving parts, I would request a follow up meeting.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Ya know..... I think that most of the discussion here has been on our concerns and less focus on understanding the client.

We all are somewhat different, and respond to different considerations.

It is somewhat wrong to say, think what you appreciate when you are the buyer, (as in buying sub-contractors)... because we are all a little different in what we respect and consider as a buyer.

We are not just selling a deck/addition/paint job.... we are selling a comfort level.... like it or not.

One party wants basic facts/and get it done. Another appreciates the technical aspects. Another wants a comfortable relationship and talk about fishing and similarties. Another appreciates back-slapping and boisterous camaradie.

For instance... I am sorta of a technical guy... I'm interested in my subs knowledge and feel comfortable when they explain their assembly and contract to it.

But, some people don't give a hoot about that, they want a price/time and you to carry all the ball and get it done.

Others are concerned with who will be on site, and want to talk and have friendly relations apart from job performance.

The more flexable you can be... the more you will sell... and the less down time selling you will incur.....( and can you hear my personal preferences in that statement).

We do busines with whom we are comfortable... but that confort level is differnt for all of us.

That is just my DF opinion... and there are alot of customers that I haven't made feel comfortabel and which I am not comfortable with... so walk away.

JMO

Best

(It's difficult to understand each customer... but as the OP was addressing, there are very few that you can submit a paper bid without establishing a confidence level with a follow up discussion...I honestly do not think that there are many customers trhat solely do a job on the lowest price... there may be customers double checking a providers pricing for whom they are allready comfortable)


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Leo G said:


> So you have a price list for a vanity with 5 doors, 3 drawers that is 74 3/8" long and painted in "oh, we haven't decided yet" as a color?:laughing:


You can't quote that on-site? Really? I guess I'm _really _surprised to hear that...

Not only would I give them a hand drawing right there for that (with computerized drawing after contract), but we know the pricing for the door/drawerfont sizes including species / finish, drawer material, glides, hinges, knobs/pulls, embellishments, tops, plumbing, electrical, etc...

What exactly would stop you from quoting that on-site right there and then? the color? :laughing:

Most already have an idea of what color/species/finish (stain, paint, glaze) from mags or online, and it's part of the qualifying process anyway and if for some reason they are not sure, just like they can do if they ARE sure, they can change their mind, which would simply involve adjusting the price... pretty much every appointment we walk out of, the "color" is not an issue...

.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

EricBrancard said:


> Are you mostly doing kitchen/bath stuff or do you do large multiphase remodeling/renovation, additions, new construction, stuff that involves excavation, etc?


Mainly remodels... can be kitchen, bath, flooring, exterior, additions, revisions, custom furniture, tops, but we are also a manufacturer... we just don't make cabs so focus on price lists works all the way round... best practices, more efficient... our focus is the whole job... 

Haven't tackled new construction as it relates to doing our own development... working in new construction as a cog in the wheel, yes...

.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

KAP said:


> EricBrancard said:
> 
> 
> > Are you mostly doing kitchen/bath stuff or do you do large multiphase remodeling/renovation, additions, new construction, stuff that involves excavation, etc?
> ...


Manufacturer?


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

thehockeydman said:


> Have you been reading Seth Godin books, or is your wording just a happy coincidence?


That'd be experience talkin' there. Maybe Seth got the message too.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

KAP said:


> You can't quote that on-site? Really? I guess I'm _really _surprised to hear that...
> 
> Not only would I give them a hand drawing right there for that (with computerized drawing after contract), but we know the pricing for the door/drawerfont sizes including species / finish, drawer material, glides, hinges, knobs/pulls, embellishments, tops, plumbing, electrical, etc...
> 
> ...


Most of my clients don't know what they want other than a vanity.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Most of my clients don't know what they want other than a vanity.


You don't do any pre-qualifying?... :blink:

If they are going to leave it up to me to come up with the design... a little over 6' vanity will be made to their needs, but I'm going to zero in on what they want it to accomplish and draw to meet that... I'm not going to keep going out or emailing design after design until they find one they happen to like...

That's a complete waste of time IMHO... you use Ecabs right?...

.


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> I have never had one job where my fixed price didn't include everything the customer expected.


Now _that's_ funny :laughing: :laughing:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

KAP said:


> You don't do any pre-qualifying?... :blink:
> 
> If they are going to leave it up to me to come up with the design... a little over 6' vanity will be made to their needs, but I'm going to zero in on what they want it to accomplish and draw to meet that... I'm not going to keep going out or emailing design after design until they find one they happen to like...
> 
> ...


90% of my jobs are referrals. Which means I am the only one bidding. I won't keep designing stuff for them, I'll tell them to visit my website, go look at Houzz and Pinterest and find a design you like. Choose one, two, three and we can mix and match. I am total custom. You get things no one else has and sometimes no one else will make.

Some of my clients know exactly what they want and others need hand holding and guidance.

And ya, I use eCabs, why do you ask?


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

Leo G said:


> Most of my clients don't know what they want other than a vanity.


That's a perfect example of why trying to get the contract signed, sealed, and delivered on the first meeting fails. I can turn that vanity/countertop/faucet install into a full bath remodel. It goes from a simple installation to a space they're proud to show their friends and talk about what a great job you did. "_My! It's WONDEFUL_" Cluck, cluck, cluck they go. You're building them a new space in their _home_, not just slapping up some product in their _house_. Big difference.

Every HO is different, so you have to adjust your approach to each one. Myself, I don't like the hard sell. I would never sign a contract for over $500 on the first visit. And I _damn_ sure wouldn't on a $20K-30K remodel.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Leo G said:


> 90% of my jobs are referrals. Which means I am the only one bidding. I won't keep designing stuff for them, I'll tell them to visit my website, go look at Houzz and Pinterest and find a design you like. Choose one, two, three and we can mix and match. I am total custom. You get things no one else has and sometimes no one else will make.
> 
> Some of my clients know exactly what they want and others need hand holding and guidance.


We are total custom as well... right down to the components in the cabs... 

Everybody's got their way of doing things... on a little over 6' vanity, once you dial into what they are looking to accomplish with it, that's half the work done right there on design... the rest is hand holding, but we try to end the hand holding with shaking the hands of a new customer...

Referrals are also a huge part of our business... untapped market for most...




Leo G said:


> And ya, I use eCabs, why do you ask?


Because if you do, libraries can give you quite a head start instead a reinventing the wheel to start with... much easier to modify then start from scratch on ECabs in the same way you'd modify the vanity from one choice to the next...

.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KAP said:


> You can't quote that on-site? Really? I guess I'm _really _surprised to hear that...
> 
> Not only would I give them a hand drawing right there for that (with computerized drawing after contract), but we know the pricing for the door/drawerfont sizes including species / finish, drawer material, glides, hinges, knobs/pulls, embellishments, tops, plumbing, electrical, etc...
> 
> ...


It takes my cabinet shop at least a day to build a quote for a bathroom, two for a kitchen. I have the levels of cabinets to choose from. Then there is a thousand options and combinations (drawers, inserts, overlay, extended stiles, raised panel, stain, glaze, painted, custom paint....). Unless you only offer a static list there is no way you are designing and quoting a kitchen in one sit down.

I also need my plumber and electrician to complete walk throughs. No way there is standardized pricing for custom remodels.


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## Rhode Island (Mar 24, 2015)

Great topic. I always do an initial walk thru, go over the job, and then sell myself. I give a number and ask if that is acceptable. If the homeowner likes the number they get the full contract emailed to them so the can sign/proxy and send back. I have never had a customer say yes at a walk thru and back out when they got the contract. I am also super picky about the jobs I take. 

Obviously we all have different strategies. It's good to hear everyone's so we can all learn and steal each other best tactics :devil2:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

KAP said:


> You don't do any pre-qualifying?... :blink:
> 
> If they are going to leave it up to me to come up with the design... a little over 6' vanity will be made to their needs, but I'm going to zero in on what they want it to accomplish and draw to meet that... I'm not going to keep going out or emailing design after design until they find one they happen to like...
> 
> ...


You may have a template for this type of vanity









But what about this?










Or this?










Seems simple enough until you have to deal with plumbing


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

KAP said:


> Price lists allow you to do exactly that and it's all in how you structure things... All a price list does is take what you use to calculate your proposal in the first place and standardize it...
> 
> As an example, I'll take a kitchen I just sold... When we met to do the pricing, she talked about doing recessed lighting but hadn't made a decision on whether she wanted that or not, but we knew everything else and she was happy with the price. There's no reason to delay that close simply because she hadn't made a decision on the recessed lights... our structure is setup so no matter if she makes the decision now or later, she is still going to get a better price through us for electrical than if she decided to use someone else, because our subs pricing is built into our price list... Unless it's something outside of the price list, and that can of course happen, there's no reason to NOT close the deal because of an indecision like that... and a Change Order from the original scope is appropriate...
> 
> ...


This type of salesmanship doesn't work in my area. My work is mostly referrals and repeat customers. I prefer to go in as my self, for better or worse. I prefer to sell me, not a company. I think most folks around here, at least my customers prefer that also.

I have had more than a few customers choose me precisely because I didn't show up with a big folder and a bunch of samples. They trust my judgment on materials and products for the most part. Sure they have the option to choose the products they want, but my customers usually want a quality but affordable job. 

I usually go to a first meeting and find out what they are needing and wanting. Then I go home and take a few days to work up a quote. Many folks are fine with email, and take a week or so to get back to me. Some folks I just call on the phone and give them a price, then meet up in a few days to sign contracts and such. I don't get too bent if they don't get a hold of me right away as I realize they are busy as well. Some of my best jobs have taken a month or two to get locked in.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It takes my cabinet shop at least a day to build a quote for a bathroom, two for a kitchen. I have the levels of cabinets to choose from. Then there is a thousand options and combinations (drawers, inserts, overlay, extended stiles, raised panel, stain, glaze, painted, custom paint....). Unless you only offer a static list there is no way you are designing and quoting a kitchen in one sit down.
> 
> I also need my plumber and electrician to complete walk throughs. No way there is standardized pricing for custom remodels.


So you are literally telling me I am not doing what I have been doing for years?... OK... what do you want me to say to that exactly?... :blink:

TNT, since you used kitchens, we'll use that example... I've been doing it for DECADES... when I walk into a kitchen, I don't even see the existing layout but walls that I make match what they have been anticipating and their lifestyle based on a needs assessment... our customers can literally choose whatever color, style, finish they want... we have a price list for it all... 

As I said, our subs pricing is built into our price list... unless there is something off the wall, which would be spec'd separately, they don't even have to come to the site. The customer can literally gut it and start from scratch, moving all mechanicals and we can quote it... we have contracts for pricing with our subs and don't have to wait for anything... it's DESIGNED that way... as I said earlier, we've REMOVED the obstacles to make it easy for the customer to make a decision and put them at ease... we have the added benefit of being referred so they know already what to expect and that it's a smooth process...

An example of subs... The kitchen I just sold included adding a separate circuit for a microhood, undercab lighting, new outlets, replacing existing outlets with new GFCI's, new lighting, going from single bowl 7" deep sink to 60/40 double-bowl 9" deep farmhouse sink, dishwasher, water line for frig, table top stove (which cab had to be configured for) the list goes on... but that's the point, it is a LIST... reinventing the wheel with a whole new proposal is WASTED TIME for everyone... 

Adopting best practices is from A to Z, not let's spend all our time on the back end... Demming, LEAN, Sigma-Six, etc... it all starts before you meet the customer but becomes real to you from the moment you come in contact with the customer...

In fact, while you are waiting for your cabinet guy to take *"at least a day to build a quote for a bathroom, two for a kitchen" *(like - are you kidding me? how the heck does he make any money taking THAT long? another guy reinventing the wheel each time...  ), we've most likely already closed it and removed them from the marketplace. They've already been provided a hand-drawing of their kitchen that night, and a computerized version is provided a week later while we are collecting the next draw... revisions are on the clock...

You seem to think EVERY decision has to be made that night... it doesn't... there are ways to get around that, remove pressure for the client and still provide accurate pricing... 

As an example, we have CATALOGS of knobs/pulls they can choose from... they don't have to decide that night on the first night as it's one of the last things to go on... they get a credit up to a certain amount retail, and anything above that, they pay the difference... we provide 5 samples free of charge so they can see it in their home, and it helps them zero in on what they really want, and we also have a supplier with WALLS of them... 

Another example is our granite or Corian or Laminate, etc. tops all have tiered pricing based on color/finish... edging, cut-outs, templates, backsplashes, etc. are already priced out for each and all that is needed is the measurement... Once you determine the TYPE of top they want, you provide them with the colors from the tiers and zero in on color selection. You provide pricing based on the tier not the final color... BTW, they are playing with the sample doors, colors chips for the cabinets, tops, etc. and looking through our book to see what style they gravitate to if they don't already know (i.e. - inset, 1/2-inch overlay, full overlay, etc.) while I am measuring and drawing the kitchen based on our conversation of needs assessment so they STAY in the PURCHASING and decision making mode and don't cool down. 

Because we are certified Corian fabricators and do all our own tops beside stone, our stone sub's pricing is built into our price list and he knows we can quote it just as he can without reservation... 

Backsplash? Figure your labor, profit and let them decide the tile LATER at their convenience when they are provided a door/drawerfront sample with their custom colors, styles, countertop sample they can look at in their own lighting. We used to build a retail price for tile into it as well and they pay the difference, but we found it more productive to forward them to our tile house, and let them choose, and we split our contractor discount... 

It's a matter of knowing how to zero in on what they've been thinking about for a long time... People don't just say "ooh, let's replace the kitchen, tell me what I want Mr. Contractor"... they have ideas, they've watched the home improvement shows and think it can be done yesterday, they've been referred by a friend because of something they saw that they liked, they look at mags and more often than not, the internet... their existing decor plays into their palette as well... 

When we meet with the customer a couple of weeks later, it's not to stroke our ego to hear them tell us "nice job" (always nice to hear), but to FARM their WARM market and collect a survey we provide them... 

But it's simply silly for you to say that "it can't be done" when not only do we do it, but the nationals do as well... next-level thinking always has you looking to do it better...

It's why we go from hand-nailing trim to using a nail-gun... Both can be done, but one is more efficient and INCREASES your productivity and profit...

But guys who hand-nail it had to be convinced also... so you can choose to wait a day or two to get cabinet quotes or find a better way... you have to want it yourself... 

Nothing I say is of any value if you've already bought into the concept that it can't be done... Others are already and have been for a long-time... in the same way there are guys who are charging MORE than you for the same services in your area.... and are GETTING it...

For those that have ears...

Best of luck... 8^)

.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

VinylHanger said:


> *This type of salesmanship doesn't work in my area. * My work is mostly referrals and repeat customers. I prefer to go in as my self, for better or worse. I prefer to sell me, not a company. I think most folks around here, at least my customers prefer that also.
> 
> I have had more than a few customers choose me precisely because I didn't show up with a big folder and a bunch of samples. They trust my judgment on materials and products for the most part. Sure they have the option to choose the products they want, but my customers usually want a quality but affordable job.
> 
> I usually go to a first meeting and find out what they are needing and wanting. Then I go home and take a *few days* to work up a quote. Many folks are fine with email, and *take a week* or so to get back to me. Some folks I just call on the phone and give them a price, then meet up in a few days to sign contracts and such. I don't get too bent if they don't get a hold of me right away as I realize they are busy as well. Some of my best jobs have taken *a month or two* to get locked in.


I think you are missing that was the OPPOSITE of salesmanship... there is no pressure, but a process... it either makes sense or it doesn't... that doesn't change by adding another meeting... 

As I mentioned, it's Company (i.e. - YOU), Product (i.e. - they trust your judgement on materials), Service (i.e. - how are you going to get it done and back it up) and Pricing (i.e. - pricing)...

Something to consider... Operative words in your description above... *days, weeks, months* to make a decision... can make a HUGE difference in profitability and paying the bills compounded by multiple prospects to turn them into clients unless you have an extremely high close ratio, and if so, you most likely aren't charging enough...

At a minimum, I'd encourage you to look at ways to reduce those times to INCREASE cash-flow, efficiency and profitability...

.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Leo G said:


> You may have a template for this type of vanity
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Leo, I simply don't see how you couldn't price those two units the first night... they are nice but not something that a price list couldn't address... but if you have to get a plumber to price it out, and don't know how to anticipate the plumbing involved in conjunction with what's going on in the interior, I could see how that would delay you...

I know that floating cab isn't yours, because of looking at the out of square fab or installation on the left where the cab meets the sink... you do custom as I do and know that wouldn't fly...

Something similar to that design is not all that uncommon...











And in fact, you can buy them retail... but there's nothing like making it yourself... :thumbsup:...

Consider, the above similar pic has a Blum drawer that ANTICIPATES plumbing... and there are drawer manufacturers that do the same... so I don't see how it should be a big deal for you to know how to price that...

Of course, you have to determine the actual sink you are going to use and faucet...

For those who don't make their own custom doors/drawerfronts, etc. how do you think custom door/drawerfront, drawer, face-frame, moldings, etc. manufacturers (ie. - Conestoga, Walzcraft, Elias) do it and can quote the same day on all off-the-wall sizes and do it day in and day out?... PRICE LISTS...

How does a guy they dragged from the lumber department at the big box store be able to quote out a kitchen using semi-custom cabs in under an hour? PRICE LISTS... 

But you couldn't quote something like the above or this the same day?...











If you can't, no biggie, everyone works differently and not trying to imply anything in asking... 

.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I have seen the paper catalogue version of just one kitchen brand I have used. It's 2" thick with options. There's another one 1" thick just for accessories. That don't include the hundreds of thousands of tile combinations, faucets, paint, lighting, trim. Materials, vanitys, counters toilets, showers systems, glass doors, toilets, heat mats, shower valves, grab bars, doors, blinds, tile profiles, floor systems etc etc 

You understand why it's impossible to have a price list for all that. You would have a folder 1000ft thick. 

Now if you were offering a bathroom like rebath or bath fitter where you use 3 vanitys, 2 toilets, 3 wall panel styles, 3 bath over lay styles etc etc then yeah damn that would be simple and Prob fit it all on one A4 sheet with room to draw a floor plan. 

As an example I send my customers to my kitchen/flooring supplier. There has not been one time when they could have designed and picked a kitchen and paid for it in one sitting. They have a dedicated designer who draws the kitchen up as they pick it out. On avg I would say it takes most customers 2-3trips totaling 6hrs to pick their floor tile, cabinets and counters and this is with everything in the show room to view so no going back and forth with sample boards. 

Then I get with them on everything else and then I can figure a price. Overall I would say from the time they call me to signing a contract is 2 weeks as it takes them that long to figure everything out.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

KAP said:


> Leo, I simply don't see how you couldn't price those two units the first night... they are nice but not something that a price list couldn't address... but if you have to get a plumber to price it out, and don't know how to anticipate the plumbing involved in conjunction with what's going on in the interior, I could see how that would delay you...
> 
> If you can't, no biggie, everyone works differently and not trying to imply anything in asking...
> 
> .


Did you look at the feet of the 2nd one? They are segmented half footballs. Took me a day just to figure out how to make them


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KAP said:


> So you are literally telling me I am not doing what I have been doing for years?... OK... what do you want me to say to that exactly?... :blink:
> 
> TNT, since you used kitchens, we'll use that example... I've been doing it for DECADES... when I walk into a kitchen, I don't even see the existing layout but walls that I make match what they have been anticipating and their lifestyle based on a needs assessment... our customers can literally choose whatever color, style, finish they want... we have a price list for it all...
> 
> ...


So you are not quoting then that night. You are wiring with allowances and they are either given a credit or owe more.

See that wasn't that hard. You aren't giving them a true number just a ball park. Thanks for the honesty.

Ball parks don't work in this area. If you think your way works for everyone in every market, you are the one that doesn't get it. I'm glad you find a way for your area, but saying that you price it all out and then come back and admit it's allowances is much different.

As for how I make money or my cabinet supplier? I'm booked till September and have around 30 jobs waiting to pull the trigger. I'd say there is no need to think my system doesn't work or that I'm losing business to others who bid in generals and not specifics.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KAP said:


> Leo, I simply don't see how you couldn't price those two units the first night... they are nice but not something that a price list couldn't address... but if you have to get a plumber to price it out, and don't know how to anticipate the plumbing involved in conjunction with what's going on in the interior, I could see how that would delay you...
> 
> I know that floating cab isn't yours, because of looking at the out of square fab or installation on the left where the cab meets the sink... you do custom as I do and know that wouldn't fly...
> 
> ...


You are kidding yourself if a big box quotes a customer in under an hour. It's more like three.

Ron is my electrician. I guess I need to find a better one, one that will give me a price list and doesn't need to walk through to make sure he isn't missing something.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

KAP said:


> VinylHanger said:
> 
> 
> > *This type of salesmanship doesn't work in my area. * My work is mostly referrals and repeat customers. I prefer to go in as my self, for better or worse. I prefer to sell me, not a company. I think most folks around here, at least my customers prefer that also.
> ...


I don't think it's out of the ordinary for large projects decisions to take weeks or months. If a customer is going to be spending several hundred thousand dollars on a home or large scale project, they usually aren't going to make that decision the first meeting. 

But you seem to have a process in place that works well for you and your company and the projects you do and has been validated with many years business and that's definitely something to admire.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KAP, email me your price list. Just curious at the matrix you put together.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You are kidding yourself if a big box quotes a customer in under an hour. It's more like three.


Am I really? No, I am speaking from experience... I don't make low-end cabinets because I can buy them for less (or not save enough to justify it for the purpose) than I can make them... I just bought a set recently for a rental... I was in and out in less than an hour paid in full with the person at the computer taking payment right there... is that the case everytime for everyone, of course not, but the point I was making was they can do it BECAUSE they have a price list...




TNTSERVICES said:


> Ron is my electrician. I guess I need to find a better one, one that will give me a price list and doesn't need to walk through to make sure he isn't missing something.


You missed the point TNT... not a better electrician, a better way...

It could be a learning curve thing... You can't be expected to be able to design a kitchen, for example, and knowing the in's and out's the same as someone who has been doing it for decades...

The subs I use, we've worked together for years... the ones we use the most often, one electrician does it by the hour and the other by the piece... I have plumbers who do the same...




TNTSERVICES said:


> KAP, email me your price list. Just curious at the matrix you put together.


I'm sure you would be... proprietary info bud... :thumbsup:

I can guide you and help you develop one, but your pricing guide will end up different than mine because you buy from cabinetmaker, and we are the cabinetmaker for example...

.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> I have seen the paper catalogue version of just one kitchen brand I have used. It's 2" thick with options. There's another one 1" thick just for accessories.


You mean they have a price list and don't reinvent the wheel every time? Cool... :thumbsup:

Cabinetmakers use all sorts of materials... how do you think they developed that to come to a standardized price list?...

.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> So you are not quoting then that night. You are wiring with allowances and they are either given a credit or owe more.
> 
> See that wasn't that hard. You aren't giving them a true number just a ball park. Thanks for the honesty.


Of course I am giving them a true number... if they change, it will cost more... if they don't change, it won't be less... 




TNTSERVICES said:


> Ball parks don't work in this area. If you think your way works for everyone in every market, you are the one that doesn't get it. I'm glad you find a way for your area, but saying that you price it all out and then come back and admit it's allowances is much different.


TNT, if I price something, it covers it... the only way that number changes if they change the scope... if I price them on a tier one top, and they decide to go with a tier three afterwards, it's a change order, not a ball park... the price doesn't go down because the price already included everything in the scope...




TNTSERVICES said:


> As for how I make money or my cabinet supplier? I'm booked till September and have around 30 jobs waiting to pull the trigger. I'd say there is no need to think my system doesn't work or that I'm losing business to others who bid in generals and not specifics.


I'm not saying your system doesn't work... I was referring to a day for a vanity and two days for kitchen you referenced for your cabinet supplier... I don't see how you can make money doing that... you just said in the other post that the big stores is more like three hours for a kitchen... these aren't cabinetmakers at work, but clerks... so I guess I don't see how a clerk can do it in a couple of hours but it takes a cabinet shop two days...

I have placed up many drawings on CT in a short span of time with just an overhead layout... it's what I encourage people to do is give us an overhead...

Not looking to get into a tit-for-tat with you TNT... if your system works... awesome... all I am telling you is there is a better way...

Also try and remember, as I mentioned already, we don't close all our deals on the first night... It ranges from 33-42% on average... it goes up to the low 50's with the follow-up... Referrals are higher...

.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Did you look at the feet of the 2nd one? They are segmented half footballs. Took me a day just to figure out how to make them


And we've all been there... I remember doing fluted columns the first time many years ago... ate my lunch on that one... flipping burns... 

If your hourly rate is $75/hour, I highly doubt you charged them $600 to make those two feet... if you did and got it? Kudos... 

There's a difference between pricing something out and getting it wrong, and being able to price it out...

.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

*Silence After Giving Quotes.*



KAP said:


> You mean they have a price list and don't reinvent the wheel every time? Cool... :thumbsup:
> 
> Cabinetmakers use all sorts of materials... how do you think they developed that to come to a standardized price list?...
> 
> .



I have a price list. It's putting that price list into one figure that takes the time and figuring it out. Again on custom work it's impossible to do that in a sit down meeting with customers. Cookie cutter kitchens and baths where you offer one toilet type, 1 faucet type, 1 vanity type etc etc. you know as well of all of us you cant do custom and give a price there and then. 

Here's an example

Customer wants 

Geberit concealed cistern toilet 
Axor masaud tub
Moltoromo shower walls
Axor citerio faucet
Euphoria system shower kit
Ditra heat 200sqft

What's your price list say about this above? 

Now customer wants to see this stuff in person and see samples as they are spending a bunch of money. All my customers have always wanted to see the stuff before they buy it unless it's been a special order item. 

Now you need to figure out the plumbing and electrical for all of that and get with your tiles guy to figure out tile and layout.


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## TaylorMadeAB (Nov 11, 2014)

KAP said:


> You mean they have a price list and don't reinvent the wheel every time? Cool... :thumbsup:
> 
> Cabinetmakers use all sorts of materials... how do you think they developed that to come to a standardized price list?...
> 
> .



And they can make a price list for that because it is one specific area of construction, using in-house labour. There are only so many permutations and combinations that they would have to account for. Now take a kitchen which has these cabinets plus, faucets, sinks, tile, flooring, paint, ceiling covering, trim, handles, etc. That is were we are having a hard time believing that an ACCURATE price list exists for the literally millions of different combinations you have with a kitchen.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

I just hope the HO didn't have a stroke if I don't hear back from them.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KAP said:


> Am I really? No, I am speaking from experience... I don't make low-end cabinets because I can buy them for less (or not save enough to justify it for the purpose) than I can make them... I just bought a set recently for a rental... I was in and out in less than an hour paid in full with the person at the computer taking payment right there... is that the case everytime for everyone, of course not, but the point I was making was they can do it BECAUSE they have a price list...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rental cabinets are not the same as custom for a client. I stand by the fact that you are kidding yourself if you think a HO is walking into HD and getting a kitchen quoted in under an hour.

As for your price list I'm not your competition for one so the pricing wouldn't matter nor your method. It's the same response I got when Matt made the same claim.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KAP said:


> Of course I am giving them a true number... if they change, it will cost more... if they don't change, it won't be less...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've never had a big box get it right nor know what they were doing. That's the difference between a day and a couple of hours. It's also the difference between stock and custom.

Better is relative.


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Before this pissing match gets ugly...

I agree with Eric, that would not work for our customers. Maybe it is the area, maybe its the price range we work in, maybe it is us. But there is no way I am sitting at a table with a HO and pulling up a spread sheet and doing paperwork. The reason they went with us is to get the personalized service they deserve. If they wanted to be put into a template and serviced buy who knows when the cabinets come they would have just gone to the big box store. If our customers didn't think their project was special and unique, why would they pay us more than the other guys? 

I am pretty sure we are making plenty of money doing it our way, nothing but referrals and repeat and everything is great.


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Kap - how do you handle pricing changes from the suppliers? Lumber changes daily around here... 

How do you handle materials chosen you don;t have a price for on your sheet?

How do you handle tile? Hardwood? Doors? Windows? You have every size with every option with you all the time? Are you just doing kitchens and baths this way?

Clients are ok with being turned into a number and spit out of an equation as a figure?

Do you set up at there kitchen table and do all of this? They sign a contract that night?


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

I don't have any trouble at all believing that KAP or others can do a one-call close on a significant remodel. It's been a while, but I've had jobs taken right out from under me a couple times, just that way. Two big kitchen remodels come to mind. One was grabbed by an outstanding company who does very nice work, and who would have shown up with books, samples, etc. The other was grabbed by a guy whose entire scope of work would have been something like this : "Kitchen - counters, tile, appliances."

After losing those jobs, I changed my sales process - not to have a one call close, but to accelerate my process somewhat, and also not to do the groundwork for the other guys.

Anyway, I don't have any trouble believing that KAP can do that. I don't expect it to become my model.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I just don't buy it. Your subs have to agree to a price before they know what they are getting into. I just funny see how that would work. If someone could show me how that would be great.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I just don't buy it. Your subs have to agree to a price before they know what they are getting into. I just funny see how that would work. If someone could show me how that would be great.



I have a couple of great subs but they will absolutely not give a price without seeing the job. Non of us on here would either though so I don't blame them. It's im possible to be an expert in every trade so the time it takes to get them over to look is well work it as theirs no surprises for any of us.

I looked at a job a couple days ago. It was an addition to make kitchen bigger. It took 3hrs to just go over what can and can't be done. I didn't even get into what's going on the kitchen and what's being done with electrical plumbing and roof, septic, drain feud etc etc I'm estimating I'm gonna have at least 20-25hrs in pricing this job and running around before I even give a price.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I really don't care if I don't hear back. It won't cause me to starve, I won't cry into my pillow at night over it.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> I have a couple of great subs but they will absolutely not give a price without seeing the job. Non of us on here would either though so I don't blame them. It's im possible to be an expert in every trade so the time it takes to get them over to look is well work it as theirs no surprises for any of us.
> 
> I looked at a job a couple days ago. It was an addition to make kitchen bigger. It took 3hrs to just go over what can and can't be done. I didn't even get into what's going on the kitchen and what's being done with electrical plumbing and roof, septic, drain feud etc etc I'm estimating I'm gonna have at least 20-25hrs in pricing this job and running around before I even give a price.


You are obviously doing it all wrong.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You are obviously doing it all wrong.



I know for sure I'm not the quickest when pricing stuff but I'm about as anal as it gets. It's rare I forget anything and have never had to do a change order due to something I missed. I also end up with hardly any waste on most jobs compared to what I see other guys waste doing same stuff. I could def do it way quicker but I know I will miss something.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

The only person I know that does estimates while sitting in his truck hasn't a clue what he doing, he's a hack.

On larger remodel jobs he comes up with bogus extra charges in an attempt to make up for his losses.

I can't imagine using a price list on a remodeling job. Every job is different, all the materials are different. If I ever got a job where my estimate was based on a price list I better have a large stack of change orders.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

I spend more time planning, designing and planning a project than it takes to ever do a project.

By project I mean a kitchen, bath, basement not a door hang or crown install. Not that those are not worthy money makers but I wanted to clarify my definition of project.

By the time it is the first day of demo 98% percent of everything is planned for, decided for, signed off on, ordered and or in the warehouse waiting to be picked up.

I do like KAP's process in that there could be more efficiency to the process involved with the homeowners.

I say that because I have a signed design agreement for an entire home remodel in a very nice part of town. Basically been given the keys to run the ship as the owner is out of the country. Of which I have had every one of my subs, designers and vendors on site for. I have a master plan which turns a lot of wasted space into an awesome master bedroom suite along with three design options for the kitchen, master bath and hall full bath. 

My point is this, I know what the home is worth and what it can be worth. Putting together these designs has been a fun change up because it's nice to not have the homeowner have to look at every single tile board, faucet, vanity door, cook top etc.

They will be in town in a couple of weeks, point at option A, B, or C and within moments I will have a complete cost proposal for them because I have already obtained numbers for everything.

Now this project is an exception to the rule because most of the time it takes several meetings *WITH* the homeowners, over the course of weeks to nail down the final answer, Regis.

Usually that is ok because while I am working on project A, project B, C, D, E, etc are being developed in the background with firm design agreements and retainage. 

So I'm not worried about the homeowner being on the market or off the market at that point because I have yet to have anyone not build out with me once the design phase is complete and the cost proposal is provided.

Yet, KAP's process interests me because of one thing. There is a niche market in my area that doesn't require the hand holding nor have the budget to warrant the time spent in the upfront phase. 

I am not talking about cutting corners or giving them less workmanship quality or attention...it's just there simply are a fair amount of homeowners that don't really care what they shower, bathe, wash dishes in or what stove they heat soup on.

Kap's price list reminded me of something that I thought of a while back but kinda forgot about - in that there could be options for Bath A, B and C and Kitchen A, B or C each with a slightly different price point because of product not necessarily labor - presented to that certain homeowner. But to do that, develop that, nail it down to concise numbers takes time to do so. Then you must have all of those options with you to drag into the homeowners home. To show them option A, B or C. Which is a lot of work and I am either lazy or for some reason don't think it's important enough to develop more, or both.

I appreciate Kap's method and think it works great for him and his company but I just can't see it at the level I am now ( and no offense KAP).

Maybe I know intuitively that to gravitate more towards Kap's methods I need a whole lot more infrastructure in place with efficient systems and people in place to perform those systems to the letter. 

In summation I appreciate this thread and everyone that has provided their input. It has clicked on a thought process that has an interesting outcome when it's complete (or at the next waypoint). It's come at a very appropriate time as I have been thinking about the vision statement for my company over the past few weeks.

Thanks guys!:thumbsup::clap:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You are obviously doing it all wrong.


Why would you say something like that? 

It's not all wrong, it's another way... if you don't want to learn how to do it or develop a price list when I offered to help you do so, so be it, but I've never intimated anyone is doing it all wrong... only talking about another way we've benefited from... IOW... I've been where you are at... I now spend almost half the time as others giving the customer what they want... you don't want to do it, that's OK...

But TNT... I am TELLING you it can be done, not in theory, but because we do it, nationals do it, and others have posted they've had deals taken from them from companies who do it... you don't believe them either?...

Our company is not unique in this manner... we do full custom... customers aren't limited on anything... they get what they want... but you can also work AGAINST yourself overwhelming them with choices... part of the process is honing in on what they really want and it starts in pre-qualifying... 

But as I said in my first detailed response in post #35... 

KAP said:


> There are of course limits.... A full-scale remodel would be hard to close on the first night, but most trades a pricing list is a no-brainer... it's just filling in the data...
> 
> But whatever works for you and your company is what's most important...
> 
> .


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

KAP said:


> Why would you say something like that?
> 
> It's not all wrong, it's another way... if you don't want to learn how to do it or develop a price list when I offered to help you do so, so be it, but I've never intimated anyone is doing it all wrong... only talking about another way we've benefited from...
> 
> ...



So again do you have the materials I posted in your price list? If not then your not doing custom your doing cookie cutter like bath fitter better baths and re bath. 

For your system to work you have you would have to have every product made and every price for that product that's made of the market. That's millions upon millions of prices let along the prices to install said products and the time to install. That's why people are calling you out is because it would be impossible to have. 

You have said nothing about how this system of yours works other than you have a pricing system. Why are you so worried about giving us information about this system if all these other company's are also doing it. 

We are not your competition. If this system of yours can do all this in just a hr or two then I would be selling it to every contractor on the planet.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> So again do you have the materials I posted in your price list? If not then your not doing custom your doing cookie cutter like bath fitter better baths and re bath.


No, you are simply wrong about that assumption... if a customer is spec'ing a particlular product, they already know what they want... 




BCConstruction said:


> For your system to work you have you would have to have every product made and every price for that product that's made of the market. That's millions upon millions of prices let along the prices to install said products and the time to install. That's why people are calling you out is because it would be impossible to have.


You can "call me out" all you want... our customers get exactly what they want... the only thing that limits what they want is their budget...




BCConstruction said:


> You have said nothing about how this system of yours works other than you have a pricing system. Why are you so worried about giving us information about this system if all these other company's are also doing it.
> 
> We are not your competition. If this system of yours can do all this in just a hr or two then I would be selling it to every contractor on the planet.


I think you missed the point there BCC... my price list wouldn't apply to your price list... you don't do things the way we do... you gather quotes from everyone for electrical, plumbing, tiling, cabinets, etc... We ALREADY HAVE that stuff in place and incorporated into our pricing and also are the ones doing the work... and that could very well be the reason why you are having a hard time comprehending this... 

If you want a break down of our sales process, it's quite comprehensive, and I think you need to remember that we don't close them all the first night... we average 33-42% on the first night... 

A question I would have for everyone is NO-ONE in the history of CT has ever sold a job on the first night? Really?

.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

cedarboarder said:


> A lot of people dont respond back to my quotes. Price shopping, just wanted a number, or sticker shock?
> Any thoughts?


If it's in person or on the phone it could be they are hoping you fill the silence with something they can use. The silence is supposed to raise the tension on you.

I just fall silent also until they break the silence but by now I have already decided I don't want to work for these people. I may hang around to learn something so the time I spent is not a total waste.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KAP said:


> Why would you say something like that?
> 
> It's not all wrong, it's another way... if you don't want to learn how to do it or develop a price list when I offered to help you do so, so be it, but I've never intimated anyone is doing it all wrong... only talking about another way we've benefited from... IOW... I've been where you are at... I now spend almost half the time as others giving the customer what they want... you don't want to do it, that's OK...
> 
> ...


You stated your way was better.

You cannot offer what I offer same day. An insert tub for instance can range from $400-$2000. Tile can range from $.99 a sq to $9.99 a sq.

I'm not a national company. And the others said the operations that did that were bigger or hacks.

Like I said. Show me your list and I might but it. Take your prices out. There are just too many variables to consider to price on the initial visit. I would wager that the price you gave on the ones you closed the same day was not the same number at the end of the project.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Well my line of work doesn't count towards this convo but I sold a job yesterday within 40 minutes of first contact.

Measured the roof satellite, emailed quote, got signed copy back. I'm surprised.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Kap this is my point. If a customer wants a product and they know what they want do you have the price lists for these products and install. 

Ok answer these questions as I'm curious of how your calculating your time to get these jobs. 

1. Has customer already picked out tile, cabinets, paint, counters, appliances, lighting etc etc

2. If not then do you take a bunch of samples in the way of tile, counters, cabinet door samples, paint samples etc etc and only sell what you have in your price lists. 

3. Is so then what do you do when they want stuff that's not in your price lists that you have never installed or used before.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Kap this is my point. If a customer wants a product and they know what they want do you have the price lists for these products and install.
> 
> Ok answer these questions as I'm curious of how your calculating your time to get these jobs.
> 
> ...


I think he's just using allowances.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I do 3-6 proposals a day. Each one takes less than hour from initial meeting, to putting the price together, to going over the scope of work.
> 
> I hear back from about 30-35% even after following up.


Out of the 30-35%, how many are sold?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

red_cedar said:


> Out of the 30-35%, how many are sold?


Those would be my closing percentages. Most people never call back if they aren't going to hire us. Maybe one to two people a month will actually let me know they aren't going with us.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Kap this is my point. If a customer wants a product and they know what they want do you have the price lists for these products and install.
> 
> Ok answer these questions as I'm curious of how your calculating your time to get these jobs.
> 
> 1. Has customer already picked out tile, cabinets, paint, counters, appliances, lighting etc etc


Depends on the client, but in pre-quaifying the customer, (let's stick with kitchen since that's been the theme) we ask questions before we even go out so we know the direction it's going... I'm not going to bring in all the sample doors, as one example, and play the guessing game of which species if they say they are interested in maple or cherry... we pack the most popular stuff but let them know they are not limited in their final decision. we hone in on what it is they are looking for... Raised panel, flat panel, mitered, tenon, species, finish, etc. While I am measuring, they are looking at not only the samples of the things they expressed interest in prior to and during the meeting but flipping through the book looking at different styles of cabinet. We go back a week later to review the computerized drawings (hand drawn at the meeting), collect another draw, and finalize details. As we all know, contract or none they like to change their mind every now and then...

Allowances are there for things that don't need to be decided on that day, which have no need to delay things, but the cost is built into the contract price... such as knobs/pulls as an example but are far and few between but are accounted for. 

Take the current kitchen... she wasn't sure she was going to do recessed lights? OK... so we don't include it... it's certainly no reason to STOP the process from moving forward. If she didn't end up getting them or did, it's STILL another trip back to RE-DO what you could have just done in the first place. If she did get it, it's in the original, and if she didn't, it's not and knows it's not in the scope and requires a Change Order because... she's changing the order from we were contracted for...

Another example is we charge for the paint, but the color doesn't have to be decided that day, in fact I tell them to wait on that purposely. Etc... While we are finalizing minutiae, the process is moving forward... materials are being ordered, install dates scheduled... putting all that off because they haven't selected THE tile, or the paint color or knobs/pulls just makes it a longer process for everyone...




BCConstruction said:


> 2. If not then do you take a bunch of samples in the way of tile, counters, cabinet door samples, paint samples etc etc and only sell what you have in your price lists.


The samples are for the major items... we don't sell appliances so all we are interested is dimensions for them... That is easily determined that day... 




BCConstruction said:


> 3. Is so then what do you do when they want stuff that's not in your price lists that you have never installed or used before.


Same as everyone else... estimate the install time, add a buffer and if it's a product like a specialty sink, break out the laptop and look up pricing to get a determination for pricing to add to the quote... I just don't go back to the office THEN look it up to add it to the quote to go back out for ANOTHER appointment...


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> I'm estimating I'm gonna have at least 20-25hrs in pricing this job and running around before I even give a price.


I can't imagine doing 20-25 hours worth of work without a signed contract. It is inconceivable to me.

You've got to be paid for that time, so if you close 33.33%, you have to put 45 hours, the time you spent on the last two jobs you estimated and didn't get, into the one you closed. How can you compete or make a profit?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> I can't imagine doing 20-25 hours worth of work without a signed contract. It is inconceivable to me.
> 
> You've got to be paid for that time, so if you close 33.33%, you have to put 45 hours, the time you spent on the last two jobs you estimated and didn't get, into the one you closed. How can you compete or make a profit?


Only 25 hours, Ted would take 40.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

This is a very interesting thread. I'm curious KAP, do you know how your pricing compares to your competition?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> I can't imagine doing 20-25 hours worth of work without a signed contract. It is inconceivable to me.
> 
> 
> 
> You've got to be paid for that time, so if you close 33.33%, you have to put 45 hours, the time you spent on the last two jobs you estimated and didn't get, into the one you closed. How can you compete or make a profit?



Well that's time easy spent on a job this size. 

There's a lot go into it when I price stuff. There's the meetings with different trades on the job, the running about figuring crap out, sketch up drawings, putting together a quote etc etc 

I won't see a penny for Prob 20+hrs work but I get 95% of jobs I price. It would be 100% if I stopped pricing jobs I know 100% they ain't gonna pay my price but I have a mate who gives me a bunch of referrals and I don't wanna make him feel bad by saying no as you also has future worked lined up with these same people.


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## youngbuck (Mar 17, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Well my line of work doesn't count towards this convo but I sold a job yesterday within 40 minutes of first contact.
> 
> Measured the roof satellite, emailed quote, got signed copy back. I'm surprised.


I find for roofing this is a great way to increase sales. If I go to look at the roof, and both husband and wife are there, I will try to sell the job using a one call close. I even bought a mobile printer to give them a more professional quote, instead of it being handwritten. 

I can try to alleviate concerns while I am there and get a better gauge of if they are tire kickers or not.

Other bids I will email if I am in a hurry and do not have time to write it up in my truck. Oftentimes i don't hear back which is frustrating after a courtesy call and follow up emails.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

BCConstruction said:


> Well that's time easy spent on a job this size.
> 
> There's a lot go into it when I price stuff. There's the meetings with different trades on the job, the running about figuring crap out, sketch up drawings, putting together a quote etc etc
> 
> I won't see a penny for Prob 20+hrs work but I get 95% of jobs I price. It would be 100% if I stopped pricing jobs I know 100% they ain't gonna pay my price but I have a mate who gives me a bunch of referrals and I don't wanna make him feel bad by saying no as you also has future worked lined up with these same people.


I'm the same way and it hurts when you don't get the job. I want to know exactly what I'm doing. I don't want to be figuring out prices in the middle of the job. When the job is done I want to make sure that the price I quoted is the price they pay. If I screw up I suck it up. Only time the price changes is if something is added. And that becomes another contract, not a change order. In all the time I've been doing business there have been 2 occasions that my end price has changed. And that was very early in the business.

Most kitchen jobs require about 20 hours of work before I am ready with a price. But that price is pretty much guaranteed. I am not in a high price area, people are frugal and want the best and I want to give it to them. I need to know exactly what they want down to the door knob. If they want an ballpark estimate I give them a range 10K-18K for what you are looking for. But that doesn't narrow it down much.


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Well that's time easy spent on a job this size.
> 
> There's a lot go into it when I price stuff. There's the meetings with different trades on the job, the running about figuring crap out, sketch up drawings, putting together a quote etc etc
> 
> I won't see a penny for Prob 20+hrs work but I get 95% of jobs I price. It would be 100% if I stopped pricing jobs I know 100% they ain't gonna pay my price but I have a mate who gives me a bunch of referrals and I don't wanna make him feel bad by saying no as you also has future worked lined up with these same people.


I was the same way, changed up our approach and made quite a few changes. We do very few small projects, so for the large ones I will put together an estimate, no more than 30 minutes usually, and include a fee for the design, planning and actual quote which is under a separate contract. We have always gotten the project after the initial work is done and I am getting paid for my work as I should be. This has made a huge difference in the quality of projects and clients we are working with and I can see it in the bank account. 

For some repeat customers that give realistic budgets and I am sure we are getting the project I will just include it in the price and not as a separate design contract.


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

I just have them take a photo of what they want done and they email it to me and I send a quote back, the wave of the future isn't it??????





Ohio painter said:


> I include a cover letter with all quotes / estimates. I use it to explain about insurance coverage, workers comp coverage, being registered in our county and what the customer can expect from my company.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> EXCELLENT idea! thanks I had a rude disclaimer I was going to put at the bottom of my proposals that said this took time for me to do and I would like some feedback yes or no, but I chickened out.
> ...


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Kap this is my point. If a customer wants a product and they know what they want do you have the price lists for these products and install.
> 
> Ok answer these questions as I'm curious of how your calculating your time to get these jobs.
> 
> ...


I went and looked at a kitchen the other day, messy old 1970 kitchen, that was literally in a room From the conversation we had they don't have any money. But I did the proposal, I have 3 hrs into the meeting and cranking out numbers for what I priced out as a 20,000 job. I have 20% chance of actually doing the work.

I write proposals not estimates, not bids, proposals, so I rough out prices for some things other materials are just left blank, for example, floor tile, pendant lights, and kitchen faucet are all line itemed out with no price included in proposal. 

I look at jobs where people are on it know what they want and I take lots of time using their pre spec'd material ideas and go for it.

A year ago I went and looked at a whole condo remodel, lady didn't have a clue as to what she wanted to do and had no money. She kept calling and emailing where is my bid? I kept telling her it is 100k to do all the work and would you like to just start with the kitchen or do you want to do the whole thing, she said the whole thing, even though she had no clue about any design aspects when we spoke

Finally had time and wrote it up in an hr, bathroom 1 15k, kitchen 25k, flooring 10k, stair railing 12k, and so on, just cut and pasted descriptions from other proposals, have never heard from her since.

All these people get a big F U from me. It's like I have nothing going on and lots of time to play these price and design games

I'm learning to talk about money asap and I'm learning to not design their job without getting a contract signed to do so. I'm not going to talk about kitchen cabinet styles until you pay me.

I got 18 hrs into another full house remodel, guy said everything I wanted to hear, had all the right bs to tell me, won't return my calls, won't return my emails, poof into thin air, learned a good lesson there.

if you set expectations for other people they will only let you down, my old lady learned that in rehab, I use that everyday in my life


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

SamM said:


> This is a very interesting thread. I'm curious KAP, do you know how your pricing compares to your competition?


Years ago, I was CONVINCED this mattered more than it actually does... but it doesn't for a couple of reasons...

1. *Who's the competition?* Guys out of regular work thinking they can do what you do? A guy working out of his truck or garage with nowhere near the operating costs? Illegals? The guy who is actually in business with insurance but is stuck in rob Peter to pay Cycles and is a deposit collector to stay alive? The guy who is charging almost FOUR TIMES (yes I have an example) what I am for a custom product and getting it? So how are you going to aggregate that information for any real purpose EXCEPT to realign your pricing to "the market"... I think a lot of times we forget, we're not retail nor is what we offer the same as the next guy... two guys could be doing "kitchens", but offer a much different range of product...

2. Even if you COULD somehow manage to get and aggregate all this information, of what REAL benefit is it to YOUR company? Just one example.... If you want to make $75-$100K/year and you have a guy who went from working as an employee make $15-$20/hour ($30-$40K range - industry average), to $50K as an owner, even IF you used the exact same materials, and could finish the job in an identical time frame, you will be by definition MORE expensive by default. And what if they don't carry insurance or have a shop, etc. So what are you then going to do? DROP your price which can only come from ONE place - YOURS and your families pocket?... because your subs, your suppliers, your overhead, etc. STILL expect to be paid even if you drop your pants...

3. Low-bidders and competition have ALWAYS been there... from low-priced products, to guys working out of their garage, no insurance, etc... I remember years ago having a discussion on WoodWeb (Leo might remember this), how Chinese cabinets were going to kill the cabinet industry like the furniture industry... I made the point then that there will ALWAYS be a cheaper version of what you do or how you do it... the Chinese cabinets were just another version of it... but they also face significant obstacles that were easily sold against...


What really matters is what YOU need to charge stay in business... the whole "knowing what the competition charges" concept is really another way of saying we want to be all things to all customers and think we can do so by being "competitive"... part of the reasons we think this way is a retail mindset... One of the hardest things for all of us to accept is not everyone is our customer... we WANT them to be, but they're not... instead, you are better off focusing on the customers that can support your business and what it needs to function or improve processes and best practices to glean more profit from your company... 

I know this is long already (as it usually is), but I'll give you a personal example... many years ago, we WERE the company worried about the competition and trying to have the "best price", robbing Peter to pay Paul, going after the next jobs's deposit to be able to finish the last one (not much but enough and "capital reserves" and "emergency fund" were a foreign concept), and then one day I was done... I said, either we are going to charge more to cover what we need to be in business or it's time to hang it up and work for someone else whose figured it out... so, we raised our prices... and to our AMAZEMENT, our close rate didn't go down, and if I remember correctly, went UP initially... we raised them AGAIN... still no effect on the close rate... then realized what "profit" was (not what I get paid after everyone else gets paid but what we pay the company), and raised them AGAIN... and we still kept closing the business... can't even begin to realize how much money I needlessly left on the table to struggle while everyone else got paid... 

Lots of guys do it now... As an example, if I told someone raise your prices 3%, they look at me and can't see how they can do it and still "remain competitive" but that same guy can charge the same customer that 3% MORE (on the gross) to GIVE TO A BANK to be able to offer credit cards... whether you believe in credit cards or not is not the point... think about how your life and business would be IMPROVED if using just last years numbers, you could have 3% more GROSS (which would have done what to your NET)...

Sorry so long but hope it explained it... being verbose is my curse... :sad:

.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

One of the ways to actually be paid for your time doing proposals is to track your time doing that activity for a year, and work it into your salary requirements (including OT) in your hourly rate...

Doesn't get it all, because it will vary, but one way to recapture it...

.


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Well that's time easy spent on a job this size.
> 
> There's a lot go into it when I price stuff. There's the meetings with different trades on the job, the running about figuring crap out, sketch up drawings, putting together a quote etc etc
> 
> *I won't see a penny for Prob 20+hrs work* but I get 95% of jobs I price. It would be 100% if I stopped pricing jobs I know 100% they ain't gonna pay my price but I have a mate who gives me a bunch of referrals and I don't wanna make him feel bad by saying no as you also has future worked lined up with these same people.


You don't charge for the design stage? Their first hour is free (the initial consultation), but after that they're on the clock. That _really_ weeds out the tire kickers. If they want to use someone else it doesn't bother me in the least - They've been paying me for my work and sitting on my ass in my office is a lot easier than swinging a hammer.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

66 Shelby said:


> You don't charge for the design stage? Their first hour is free (the initial consultation), but after that they're on the clock. That _really_ weeds out the tire kickers. If they want to use someone else it doesn't bother me in the least - They've been paying me for my work and sitting on my ass in my office is a lot easier than swinging a hammer.



May work in your area but around here one mention of a cost to estimate the job and you ain't even getting your foot in the door let alone a call. 

Now if it was pricing a house I could understand charging as that's got some serious time involved. But I can spend on avg 8hrs just designing and pricing a deck but that cost is put into the job. Most times I get the jobs but if I don't im out them 8hrs


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

None of my time is free, i will not price out a detailed project for free. Screw that. 

I have better things to do then prepare a shopping list to hand over to a complete stranger.

Screw that.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> May work in your area but around here one mention of a cost to estimate the job and you ain't even getting your foot in the door let alone a call.
> 
> Now if it was pricing a house I could understand charging as that's got some serious time involved. But I can spend on avg 8hrs just designing and pricing a deck but that cost is put into the job. Most times I get the jobs but if I don't im out them 8hrs


No way am I spending 8 hours on a design quote Ave not getting paid. I'll give an estimate but never a quote for free on medium to large job. 

I charge a min of $250. Which will be deducted from the project if they go with me.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> No way am I spending 8 hours on a design quote Ave not getting paid. I'll give an estimate but never a quote for free on medium to large job.
> 
> I charge a min of $250. Which will be deducted from the project if they go with me.



I give estimates and they normally agree with that cost then I explain that it may be little bit more little bit less and then do a proper proposal which they do a final look over then when they decide I do a proper contract. At no time though do I supply any kind of material list even after they sign the contract. 

Now if I had more customers not get me to do the work then that charge may be on the books but that's a while off yet. 99% of my work is recommendations so these people have seen my work which is why I'm there.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

With my software it takes about 5 minutes to type up and email a proposal. It's really nothing. They get a shopping list as well.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> With my software it takes about 5 minutes to type up and email a proposal. It's really nothing. They get a shopping list as well.



type ing it up ain't what takes me the time doing that takes about 5mins to. 

What I have time in is going to their house, going over options, taking measurements and pictures onto surface pro so I have them for when I get home. Design the layout of footers, posts, beams and joist, figure out rail post spacing etc etc 
Pull my material list of them plans and then price materials. That's what takes me about 8hrs


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> type ing it up ain't what takes me the time doing that takes about 5mins to.
> 
> What I have time in is going to their house, going over options, taking measurements and pictures onto surface pro so I have them for when I get home. Design the layout of footers, posts, beams and joist, figure out rail post spacing etc etc
> Pull my material list of them plans and then price materials. That's what takes me about 8hrs


I can go to there house, spend about 30 minutes, maybe an hour. Go back home and shoot them a 60,000.00 bid without drawing anything.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> I can go to there house, spend about 30 minutes, maybe an hour. Go back home and shoot them a 60,000.00 bid without drawing anything.



I'm a bit more anal than that. I spend time going over where they want posts, where they want stairs to land, spacing on hand rails, where they want beans to land, where they want deck to start and end etc etc. I then have a full plan of where everything lands before I start the deck. It's ends up built exactly as I have it on sketch up and any issues or surprises are figured out before I even order material. I can also use the same plan for permitting. Saves me more than 8hrs of laying out stuff when I'm on site. Basically more leg work up front less on site.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Saves me more than 8hrs of laying out stuff when I'm on site. Basically more leg work up front less on site.


Yes, but it's completely wasted time if they don't sign. I'd rather spend the 8 hours on site laying out a job that I am being paid to do, than spend 8 hours up front on a job I may never get.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I can do 18 holes in that 8 hours


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

*Silence After Giving Quotes.*



EricBrancard said:


> Yes, but it's completely wasted time if they don't sign. I'd rather spend the 8 hours on site laying out a job that I am being paid to do, than spend 8 hours up front on a job I may never get.



Problem is I get 95% of the jobs I quote I get. Since I moved to the US I had only 1 deck job I didn't get and that took me 2hrs to figure out. It was only a 16x12 well easy design too.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> I can do 18 holes in that 8 hours



I can do 100 on crazy golf so what's your point?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> I'm a bit more anal than that. I spend time going over where they want posts, where they want stairs to land, spacing on hand rails, where they want beans to land, where they want deck to start and end etc etc. I then have a full plan of where everything lands before I start the deck. It's ends up built exactly as I have it on sketch up and any issues or surprises are figured out before I even order material. I can also use the same plan for permitting. Saves me more than 8hrs of laying out stuff when I'm on site. Basically more leg work up front less on site.


Why? They have no skin in the game, you however keep investing 1000's of dollars on hoping they say yes.

That stuff is to figure out after you have some of their money.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I especially love the ones that get a quote in Jan or Feb and then call in April, May or June to get installed right away.


...or get a text....


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## RenaissanceR (May 16, 2006)

*Take their time..*

Or clients who get back to you 2 years after an estimate and don't understand the price has changed/gone up.




JoeF


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

RenaissanceR said:


> Or clients who get back to you 2 years after an estimate and don't understand the price has changed/gone up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But it's a recession... shouldn't it be cheaper?...


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

I quoted a deck within a few blocks of my own house last August. I emailed the quote, and a week later sent a followup email to see if they had in fact received my quote, and to ask if they had any questions.

Well, a couple weeks ago they emailed me to say they were ready, but could I come look at the deck one more time, to see if there was any way to save some money.:laughing:

Seeing how they are just down the road, sure I can. Now, keep in mind I was desperate for work as I had JUST quit my job and gone on my own. I priced their deck so low it was hilarious. My new price came $2k higher. 

They are not my customers, and it was hilarious! And she won't respond to my emails. I offered to come up with a smaller deck that was within their budget, if I only knew what it was. I hope she doesn't email me next summer.


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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

heavy_d said:


> I quoted a deck within a few blocks of my own house last August. I emailed the quote, and a week later sent a followup email to see if they had in fact received my quote, and to ask if they had any questions.
> 
> Well, a couple weeks ago they emailed me to say they were ready, but could I come look at the deck one more time, to see if there was any way to save some money.:laughing:
> 
> ...


Yeah looking back at my old quotes its a laugh. Thinking back to all the people said it was to high.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

heavy_d said:


> I quoted a deck within a few blocks of my own house last August. I emailed the quote, and a week later sent a followup email to see if they had in fact received my quote, and to ask if they had any questions.
> 
> Well, a couple weeks ago they emailed me to say they were ready, but could I come look at the deck one more time, to see if there was any way to save some money.:laughing:
> 
> ...


This is why I always bid it like I don't want it. However, I sell it like I do.

"In Business As in Life, You Don't Get What You Deserve, You Get what you negotiate...."


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

I find it extremely amusing that some people here think that a high closing rate (like 95%) on referrals is akin to bad business practices. "You're not charging enough". WTF? Knowing I'll probably get the job gives me license to rape the client? On jobs that aren't referrals, my closing rate is still over 80% because I sell value and have excellent references. Plus, I weed out the weirdos by telling them I'm booked until the Second Coming :laughing:



Chadofall said:


> Lifetime value of a client is WAY more than some bathroom or kitchen remodel.


Exactly. Having the trust and confidence of a client is a beautiful thing. When they say "Just do what you think is best" is something that can't be measured.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

66 Shelby said:


> I find it extremely amusing that some people here think that a high closing rate (like 95%) on referrals is akin to bad business practices. "You're not charging enough". WTF? Knowing I'll probably get the job gives me license to rape the client? On jobs that aren't referrals, my closing rate is still over 80% because I sell value and have excellent references. Plus, I weed out the weirdos by telling them I'm booked until the Second Coming :laughing:
> 
> 
> Exactly. Having the trust and confidence of a client is a beautiful thing. When they say "Just do what you think is best" is something that can't be measured.


If my closing rate was 95% that would mean last month I would have sold 27 jobs last month, and my sales rep 23. 

I don't even know how I would keep up with that. Instead we close at roughly 30-35% so about 16-18 jobs a month.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

66 Shelby said:


> I find it extremely amusing that some people here think that a high closing rate (like 95%) on referrals is akin to bad business practices. "You're not charging enough". WTF? Knowing I'll probably get the job gives me license to rape the client? On jobs that aren't referrals, my closing rate is still over 80% because I sell value and have excellent references. Plus, I weed out the weirdos by telling them I'm booked until the Second Coming :laughing:
> 
> 
> Exactly. Having the trust and confidence of a client is a beautiful thing. When they say "Just do what you think is best" is something that can't be measured.


Not charging enough and "raping" sometime isn't the same. 

First "raping" means to force yourself in someone. No one is fixing anyone. 

Second, if I am landing 95% of my referrals, I'm not doing something right and most likely my tastes are too low. It's the law of supply and demand. Demand goes up price goes up. I am currently booked till October. I'm raising my rates as of next week.

Value isn't measured by cost alone. It's only one factor. Quality. Integrity. Cleanliness. Responsible. Accountable. There are many traits to value and if you should charge according to what you can offer.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> This is why I always bid it like I don't want it. However, I sell it like I do.
> 
> "In Business As in Life, You Don't Get What You Deserve, You Get what you negotiate...."


That right there will be printed, framed and hung on the wall of my office.

:thumbsup:


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## TaylorMadeAB (Nov 11, 2014)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Not charging enough and "raping" sometime isn't the same.
> 
> First "raping" means to force yourself in someone. No one is fixing anyone.
> 
> ...



You nailed it. It's easier to raise your prices now, and drop them later if you have to. I'm in the process of raising my rates and it will take me months before I am working 100% on my new rates.


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