# New to Masonry ? about estimating



## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

> Its not my job to finance someone elses project.


That's our motto too. All payments are ahead of the schedule so materials are all paid for before I order them.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

JBM said:


> I dont really agree with that. I understand that we should be able to make things happen, but in general anything that would require me to be on a job longer then a couple weeks requires pay as you go money.
> 
> I just priced a thin stone job that would be 12-18k of thin stone. You think im paying for that without some $$ up front? Hell frickin no.
> 
> ...


Not going to happen with commercial. You front it all for 90 days and then front the 10% holdback until substantial completion. No commercial GC that I have ever heard of will give any money down. You might be able to negotiate a couple draws if the prject is big enough, but then it will be several different contracts for different phases.

That's one of the reasons you can charge so much for commercial. Plus the volume ...so if you can lat that 90 day period your flush.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

To the OP. 

As others said...you first need to figure out what your labour burden is...ie what you pay each employee (including your dad but maybe not you unless you're involved day to day), plus whatever benefits cost and workers comp etc... then figure out what that will cost per month with average hours worked. That is labour burden. 

then there is overhead. Do you have an office? yes? what does it cost to keep open..phone, electric, rent, water etc.. home office? 1/3 or so of your household bills (except food and whatever). Truck payment, fuel and insurance, liability insurance any paymenets on equipment, cost of equipment devaluation, and cost of incidentals that you have to buy constantly. What does all that cost per month?

Then profit. How much do you want the business to be ahead every month? $1000?, $2000?, $10 000? That is all up to you. I figure that that is where the owners pay comes from but some put owners pay in labour burden but since you don't charge WC on that amount I don't. but it can't be all owners pay or the company will never get ahead. 

So add all those numbers together and that is how much it costs to run your business for a month. then look at the job and figure out how many brick or block your company can install in that month and divide...there is your per unit price. Maybe it is 450/1000, but it needs to be figured


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Not going to happen with commercial. You front it all for 90 days and then front the 10% holdback until substantial completion. No commercial GC that I have ever heard of will give any money down. You might be able to negotiate a couple draws if the prject is big enough, but then it will be several different contracts for different phases.
> 
> That's one of the reasons you can charge so much for commercial. Plus the volume ...so if you can lat that 90 day period your flush.


I dont think ive ever done a commercial job.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

JBM said:


> I dont think ive ever done a commercial job.


I avoid them entirely.

I would rather deal with a homeowner than a GC when I can.


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## Nick520 (May 2, 2013)

I dunno if you can pull money for materials before the job starts that's great. Also shows your cards and what your labor cost is. Could get a gc or HO thinking that's for sure


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The first word of my last post was supposed to be "some", not "So". 

In commercial work you are usually going to have to finance your section of the job, as the GC is also financing the overall job. That is a normal cost of doing business, and that cost should be added to your overhead as an expense. So it doesn't really "cost" you anything, and if accounted for properly, you should make additional income from "financing the job".


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

What is the ROI for loaning money to GC's?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Same as your normal markup on materials would be a good start.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Also don't forget any job that needs to pay union scale is going to have crazy labor numbers. .crazy.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Just the differential on the last municipal job I bid I think was $28 it may have been more. That's on top of a healthy hourly pay rate and before any profit for me.
I was looking at bill out rate for a mason at $75-80 an hour.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

30 years as a mason and not able to buy materials for the job...
Sounds like your old man needs you a lot more than you need him. To be fair to the guy, the last five years have been a wash for a lot of construction. 

I agree that getting material up front is best for cash flow management, but some jobs it is better to front the whole thing and be able to pay yourself a high markup. I have found commercial jobs to have mechanisms in place to keep the cash flow rolling, but they have a bunch of hoops to jump through. 

I don't mind "loaning" someone money to complete their project, but I get to set the interest rate...lets just say that credit card companies aren't the only ones to get 28%:whistling

This really sounds like a good opportunity for you to get back into the family business and not necessarily pick up the trowel. Help the old geaser move toward retirement by moving his business into the 21'st century. Just for reference, a buck a brick labor is a decent starting point for 2013.


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## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

A buck a brick is decent? that's way to low for my area. unless its commercial work. if I billed out residential at a $1 a brick and no mark up on materials I would slowly go broke.


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

Does that include the brick in the materials?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Look up Curtis Martins jersey number when he played for the pats....

thats what residential is around here. Not that there is really any.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

2low4nh said:


> A buck a brick is decent? that's way to low for my area. unless its commercial work. if I billed out residential at a $1 a brick and no mark up on materials I would slowly go broke.


a buck a brick labor is considered the high end of the scale here.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

JBM said:


> Look up Curtis Martins jersey number when he played for the pats....
> 
> thats what residential is around here. Not that there is really any.


dollars or cents?


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## stonebuilder (Jan 13, 2013)

I would say $1,5-2 per brick is price for my area


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

Your father's per block or per brick price is a very common method. He is just taking all of the costs, labor, overhead, materials, profit and dividing them out to an easy to figure number. This is a easy way to bid jobs. 
I always take the job site conditions into account. Slopes, height above ground, any scaffolding, and how far the material needs to be carried all need to be considered. 
Your price per block or brick will be affected by those conditions. Your father knows this also.
As far as only bidding labor. That's okay. It will make things easier. Remeber though, you will be at the mercy of the GC or homeowner. Sometimes it is almost easier to supply your own materials after you spend your time figuring everything for the homeowner and supplying them with a material list.
Residential work = money up front. If things go south you don't want to have to finance thier project. At least you will only be out the labor.
Commericial work = a long wait for the money. We don't mind. We know it going in and just plan for it.
It sounds to me your father just wants to work and not worry about the business side. He might want to consider going to work for a bigger company. The upside is when it's 5:00 you go home and relax. You don't have to meet with customers and you don't have to figure jobs.
There is the reward of having your own business, especially a business with your son, but you both need to really think about it. Partnerships are hard. You don't want to damage a good relationship between the two you, over business.


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