# Okay I posted this in plumbing but WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN??



## Paragon (Jul 22, 2007)

SO I am learning all about people and this stuff they call business, LOL!

Here is my situation tell me what you think about it.

I had a client I did some work for renovating her upstairs and down into her basement. The circumstances surrounding the reason I ended up there is as such. She stuck four plates of spaghetti down the drain and then wanted the plug cleared. She also put draino in the pipes the night before and the shotty pvc in the wall that was all jointed up detriorated overnight and voila she had about 5 leaks in her basement wall and a natural spring coming out of her basement wall.

So she doesn't have a pot to pi$$ in or a window to throw it out of so she turns the claim into the insurance company. The insurance company is only going to pay for a small portion of the project but she strong arms the insurance company and walks away with a check for all new cabinets a 1/4 of the labor to install the cabinets new laminate floor a good portion of the labor to repair it. 

She hired a guy who she said was a retired electrician to string her can lights and string the wiring for her recessed lights. I installed her undercabinet lighting onto the connections the electrician left and I replaced switches and outlets but did no "wiring". I also put a new compression shut off valve on the hot water stub and one on the cold water stub. 

Then she decides that she would fix all the holes in her walls texture repair that her kids puched all sorts of other miscellaneous things and she lets the job get all most finished up and I get a sixth sense that maybe I should put out my feelers and I give her an invoice for a progress payment.

She throws a fit and says she isn't going to pay it (yes I do have a signed contract). So then I tell her that if she doesn't pay it I have no choice but to go to the next step. She calls me Monday after I talked to her and says she is going to the bank to get a loan for the invoice. She gives me a check that was $1300 less than the invoice and then she turns me into the state electrical board and the state plumbing board for performing work as an unlicensed plumber and unlicensed electrician when she almost beeged me to install the switches and outlets because an electrician would be "too expensive" and I installed the two shut offs again because a plumber would be "too expensive"

What it appears to me is and the plumber that roughed the plumbing in is that she is trying to duck the remainder of the bill. I was her hero until I gave her the bill then I became the big bad contractor that did the work without being licensed. She wouldn't hire an electrician on the wiring the can lights until I insisted that she did. I told her there was too much liability and that I wasn't licensed. As far as the shut offs everything was roughed in and ready to go I didn't think that there would be a real problem in installing two simple 1/2" x 3/8" shut offs and running the p traps to the waste.

The plumber and I have a theory on what the inspectors will probably say since all I did was replace outlets and switches no running wire or tying into the panel and no other plumbing work other than installing two shut off valves but I am not going to say what our theory is so that I don't taint the discussion.

Tell me do you guys think I am in deep trouble or not.

I appreciate your time on this and look forward to your guys responses.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

A) I think you screwed yourself. You worked beyond the scope of your license. You cannot charge or collect for any of the plumbing or electrical work. You will need to hire licensed contractors to verify everything you did (electrical and plumbing) is proper, get it inspected, and that's all out of your pocket. That's the price you pay for breaking the rules. It really doesn't matter that the customer "begged" you to do it. YOU broke the rules and that is your problem to fix.

B) work you did under contract and were properly licensed to do you can demand she pay you for. 

In my state, a customer is under no obligation to pay an unlicensed contractor. Not for materials not for labor. You're out there working for free AND you are still responsible for the work you performed. Shure she's screwing you. You were an active participant.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

What state are you in?...other than a state of shock and financial misery.

Dave


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## Paragon (Jul 22, 2007)

*Dave*

I am in North Dakota,

Ohh and did I mention that the electrician she hired to do her kitchen can lights did I mention that he was also not licensed.

I wish I could convey how much of a scum this lady is the way she has taken advantage of EVERYONE along the way?

Anyways I think you are right I did work betond the scope of my license and I guess I knew that when I was doing it. I did it as a favor and this is how I was treated. 

The thing about it is I will take it in the shorts on the materials which is minimal and I will eat a little of the labor cost on the job overall. But I tell you what I will do a CYA trick and I will be sure to let the inspector know the name of the person that did pull the wire and the fac tthat the homeowner hired all of us knowing our qualifications. I think they will know the game and I think more of the flak will fall on her head than she is imagining. I think she plans on skating out of this unharmed but I hope she gets what she deserves for f^cking us all over like this and dragging everyone through the mud. 

There isn't anything wrong with the workmanship she just doesn't want to pay the bill so I will just make an alteration to her final invoice if ush comes to shove and make sure I don't charge her for the few hours of installing the outlets and switches.

I don't THINK that the inspectors are going to bite that hard for 2 shut offs and replacement of outlets and switches. I did nothing that was oversen by code simply took out and replaced if it was a GFCI I replaced it with a GFCI if it was within 6 feet of water it also got a GFCI. SO I am not real worried about the final outcome I just think she is trying to run and duck the bill.

Thanks and I look forward to seeeing more of your insight and input.

Take care and Merry Christmas and a Happy and safe New Year


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## Tmrrptr (Mar 22, 2007)

I can't see where you declare you have any license.

Here in CA...
no license, no leg to stand on. You lose.

If you DO have a license, you should have bolted soon as an unlicensed person did work on the job that might affect yours.

Never, mess with any other trades work, unless you are willing to accept it as your own! You touch it, you bought it.

THE question is, how much is this lesson going to cost you?


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

Paragon said:


> But I tell you what I will do a CYA trick and I will be sure to let the inspector know the name of the person that did pull the wire and the fac tthat the homeowner hired all of us knowing our qualifications.


LOL WHAT A GUY! So now its ok for you to work without a License, because the other guy didnt have one either??????? What planet are you on buddy? 

Did she find you on craigslist?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Paragon said:


> I wish I could convey how much of a scum this lady is the way she has taken advantage of EVERYONE along the way?


Seems everyone was willing to play her game - you guys lost.
She knew the rules and played the game well...you guys saw only dollar signs.
Don't be a sore loser.




Paragon said:


> I did nothing that was oversen by code simply took out and replaced if it was a GFCI I replaced it with a GFCI if it was within 6 feet of water it also got a GFCI.


6' of water??
Was there a wet bar?

BTW, simply changinga GFI in NJ requires a lic. EC & a permit..I know your in ND-but do you know what the requirements are in ND?


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

I think you are in deep trouble, but the state is the least of your worries...


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## Paragon (Jul 22, 2007)

*Hey calm down guys*

Prick ohh woops did I mix your name around sorry Patrick no she didn't find me off of Craigslist but thanks for the vote of confidence and may you find a great deal of business there.

The job that the electrician did was of his and her arrangement not of mine. I knew what I had to do and that is what I did and like I said this didn't become a problem until the invoice was presented. This isn't a safety isssue it is a game of dollars and that is all.

Ohh and as far as the comment on seeing dollars I was actually trying to help her not make unscruppled money. I grew up with a single mother and watched her struggle so I was just trying to help her out and save her the expense of the electrician and the plumber by doing the stuff I knew was safe for me to do. I did insist that she hire an electrician for the work I wasn't licensed to do and didn't feel safe doing. This is who she picked and I did not have a clue of the fact that he wasn't licensed until the day HE walked off the job. At that point she was in distress and so I lent a hand. She hired all the help not me. I did not come into this job as a GC but rather as a prime and it was her who chose the other primes.

So before you all start to attack please consider the broad aspects of the job. Yes you are right I should have probably insited she have an electrician to do the recepticles and the switches but it was a matter of REPLACING not INSTALLING. As far as the plumbing I don't think the inspector will bite hard on the simple fact that I installed two shut off valves that is all I di 2 shut off valves not sweated on but compression fittings pretty simple to cut some copper and put them on you think the inspector is going to poinch me hard for that I have a feeling he isn't.

In life there are those that seek a free ride every chance they get and that is EXACTLY what she did. She got a free ride out of the insurance company and she is mad because I didn't give her one too. She knew the facts and now that she doesn't have the money to pay the invoice she and her Dad are reaching for every straw they can get ahold of. They didn't even go to the local inspector on the issue they went right to the state and I thin khe is going to be les impressed when he realizes that it is for two simple shut off's. 

So I am seeking advice just not jabs so Patrick if you don't have anything nice to say shut the fuc... ohhh wait it is don't say anything at all sorry got a little confused there for a moment.

I came here looking for constructive insight not slinging mud. Thanks to you all you have contributed valuable insight.


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## Paragon (Jul 22, 2007)

*Ohh and btw Celtic*

Celtic I didn't comeinto this trying to play a game I came into it trying to help her out that is it and that is what I am asking to get compensated for no more no less! Sore looser maybe but when you go to bat for someone and get farked in the end that is when it becomes personal.

And as far as a GFCI it is a pretty simple installation not rocket science line in line out so don't get too wrapped up in the details I didn't run a circut I replaced a GFI so yeah I think that is sufficient knowledge to change it out I didn't say install it I said REPLACE so please don't confuse the scope of the two words.

Just wanted to reply to you directly so that you don't feel bad about me replying to Patrick and not to you. I almost forgot to reply completely no it was a kitchen and in a kitchen there is a SINK!!! sorry for the hostility but again it would have been nice if you wouldn't have jumped on the band wagon with Patrick but I suppose you thought it to look like a cool chance to make yourself look more intelligent than others.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

mahlere said:


> I think you are in deep trouble, but the state is the least of your worries...


two times


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## Paragon (Jul 22, 2007)

*How so Mahlere?*

Where are you seeing the problems other than the state?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Paragon said:


> And as far as a GFCI it is a pretty simple installation not rocket science line in line out


Better not hang that rocket science diploma...it's line in/load out




Paragon said:


> I didn't say install it I said REPLACE so please don't confuse the scope of the two words.


I didn't...you may have...



Celtic said:


> BTW, simply changinga GFI in NJ requires a lic. EC & a permit..I know your in ND-but do you know what the requirements are in ND?


Notice I said "changing"....not install...but then again, I am speaking about NJ - what they do in ND...who knows???




Paragon said:


> I almost forgot to reply completely no it was a kitchen and in a kitchen there is a SINK!!!


So what?
6' from a sink means NOTHING unless it's a wet bar.
ALL kitchen counter outlets are GFI'ed...NOT only the ones within 6' of a sink.




Paragon said:


> sorry for the hostility but again it would have been nice if you wouldn't have jumped on the band wagon with Patrick but I suppose you thought it to look like a cool chance to make yourself look more intelligent than others.



If you take comments to be hostile - too bad. 
No one "jumped on any bandwagon" - if Patrick and I have the same opinion, why shouldn't we voice our opinion? So as not to offend the ladies in the house?



Life is hard and the truth stings.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

the problem is that you are getting into the contracting business without the ability to read people...

you are putting yourself in harms way without realizing it...

i'm all for guys going out and staking their claim to life...but educate yourself on what is required to be in business and how to deal with the people.

celtic is right...she was playing a game with you...and she won...you didn't even know you were in the game...that's a problem...


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Same response in your other thread.

Nice website and progress photos.

But.....

You may want to reconsider what you write on there and say differently over here. It may have just been for bravado, but nonetheless..........

Ed

"*Our electrician quit the job and *

*so I have had to finish up his odds and ends. *

*The undercabinet lighting is installed the painting is complete, an over the range microwave has been installed, the new laminate floor is installed, the countertops have been installed."*


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## Paragon (Jul 22, 2007)

*Mahlere I give you credit for that insight*

Yes Yes Yes!

You are so correct!

I read an article once about a person that in the early 1900's was hired by a manufacuring company to trouble shoot a certain machine that NO ONE could figure out what the problem was.

He came in and looked it over and placed an x on the trouble spot walked out and they fixed the machine with no further problems.

The man sent them a bill for $10,000.00 and when they go their bill they said, "Why was the bill so high all you did was place an x" The man replied, "That is correct my charge was $1 to draw the X but $9,999.00 to know where to put it!"

It is always interesteing to come to these sites and read peoples postings. You can always tell those that remember where they started from and those who don't. I have been around this industry all of my life so I am not fool to the ways of the trade. I am not a CL hack as some would have insinuated. 
Another interesting point:

_the problem is that you are getting into the contracting business without the ability to read people...

you are putting yourself in harms way without realizing it...

i'm all for guys going out and staking their claim to life...but educate yourself on what is required to be in business and how to deal with the people._

_Well spoken from someone who has been in the business for a while but just remember we ALL start at the bottom and we ALL start green. A sixth sense is omething we develope not something that is automatic. SO before you all judge step back and think about what those first days were like for you.

This is of course for those of you who ar able to remember and can be honest that you too were not an expert in all areas of expertise. We all know that no matter how long you have been around there is always going to be something that catches us off guard or something that we don't know how to handle and that is why we depend on our colleages to give us a hand when we run into a situation we don't really know how to handle. How many times do we pick up the cell phone and call Jim or Dan because "I bet he has seen this before" or "I wonder if he has seen this before" That is how we grow we tap those around us for advice and insight.

So yes this lady caught me off guard but the most important lesson in life is to not judge unless you have walked a mile in someone elses shoes and trust me this person seemed like someone who was genuine and would not be a problem. She is in a round about way a friend of the families and she wore two masks. there was the one she was showing and really it was her Dad who put these ideas into her head and she told me that was the advice of her father so she really is the puppet unfortunately she is the one I am dealing with and it wasn't her Father I started with.

So inconclusion please don't pass judgement from too high of a throne because I am always saddened to see one fall from great heights.

_


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## Paragon (Jul 22, 2007)

Ed yes these were true statements not for bravado but true.

I did have to finish up his work and that was to simply replace the outlets, the switches and install the undercabinet lighting.

These were things that were done and I am not sure exactly what you are refering to when you caution me about what I say?

Again I like the insight but where is the problem?


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## Paragon (Jul 22, 2007)

Ohh and Ed thanks for the compliment on the website unfortunatly I will never be able to show the completed project. The place was such a pit to start with and the final outcome was stunning.

The only thing I left her with was her T moldings to be installed and her baseboard but I did that to get out my feelers. These items were aditions and I knew that there was something not right about my "6th sense" so I stopped midstream right before I iced the cake to make the job a little bit more "incentive laden" to pay for. I figure this way I had some kind of leverage in the deal. My contract also states that "failure to make a progress payment will result in work being ceased. This failure to make the progress payment and the ceasing of work do not constitute a breach of contract." 

I made a defensive move and I think she intended to stick me for the entire job so I did what I had to do now in retaliation she turns me in to the state. Again, this isn't a report for concern it is a report out of spite.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

My warning was that in your website text, you stated:

"Our Electrician"

when in your previous comments about the electrician being used, you had continually stated that the HO lady hired the electrician.

It could wind up getting you in trouble, and even if you change the text, if they want to find out what you changed and know about the wayback machine to search archived pages, prior to modifications, they could still come up with your original verbage.

The "bravado" comment was about you stating that the electrician was "Our" electrician, to imply that you GC'd the job and the sparky was your sub.

Ed


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## Paragon (Jul 22, 2007)

Thanks Ed!


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