# Drafting program advice



## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

I read through some of the old threads about this.
I got a little info overload

My situation
I draw by hand now
New homes and additions
I need something simple to start(slow learner)
I build almost everything I draw(I do not need lots of details and 3d stuff)
Good clear lines and measurments
Maybe something I can add to later If i actually figure it out
My computer skills are limited

With that info what would your advice be


----------



## tbronson (Feb 22, 2010)

Depends on the computer you have. If its an Apple (which is easier to use than a PC and more secure if you aren't running Windows 7) then go with Omnigraffle Pro or Vectorworks. If its PC then look at Microsoft Visio. If you want to go the free route then look at Google's Sketchup.


----------



## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

I have a pc


----------



## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

SketchUp. There are tons of YouTube videos and in general, really easy to learn. Most people pick it right up.


----------



## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

Though I have never used Sketchup, everybody seems to love it, you can accomplish great looking stuff with it and there is a ton of extra stuff folks are developing for it, and it's free to download, try and use, how can you not give it a shot (not to mention framerman's point about all the help in figuring out how to use it)?

Having said that, as some one who has tried more than once to get going on a CAD program and gotten nowhere slowly, the attachments below I made in Chief Architect in about 5-8 hours the first couple times I sat down to try and learn the program. As a guy who doesn't know CAD I found it pretty freakin simple, granted there is a ton more to learn but I was pretty impressed by it. I will be learning Sketchup as well though (right after E-Cabinet Systems, thanks for the tip Leo :thumbsup simply because it has so much going for it.

Chief however is not free, it cost between $1,500-$2,100 depending on the version: but again a *total* CAD newbie produced these sitting down for the first time to learn the program in about 5-8 hours. You will find other folks in these parts that will sing Chief's praises as well.

Just sayin, although Sketchup *is* free.


----------



## tbronson (Feb 22, 2010)

Sketchup or Visio would be what I would suggest. Sketchup has the bonus of being a 3D application and having allot of stuff for it made by other people that you can use and not have to re-invent the wheel.


----------



## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

Given the op's desires and limitations, I wouldn't recommend any of the previous. A decent 2D cad program with an active forum like perhaps an older version of turbocad. It would have plenty of easy to use features and room for growth should he find it useful.

I personally use SU for virtually everything but experience tells me that not everyone is interested in the effort.


----------



## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

Well, i put an hour into sketchup last night
Lots of wild 3d stuff:no:
I will try again today with a better attitude.

I called chief arc they have a program that i can buy for $500(basic)
If I like it, and want to upgrade they will take that $500 off next purchase

Do any of these programs have people you can hire to come to your office or home.


----------



## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

sketchup 
I just want to draw a  square


----------



## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

Nailkiller, Dave Richards of Lumberjocks will tutor you in SU via gotomeeting. He lives down there in your neck of the woods. SU can do what you need. Dave publishes articles on fine wood working magazine in "Design, Click, Build" which is about Sketchup/Woodworking. I personally recommend that you contact Dave and tell him I sent you.
I could do it but I'm really hooked up currently.


----------



## mickey69125 (Dec 8, 2007)

Chief Architect Home Designer Pro version 9 is what I use. Got it on Amazon for $400. It's a stripped down version of their more expensive programs. Fairly easy to learn, although I've just scratched the surface of what it can do. The rendering is pretty basic though. I like it better than Sketchup, but then it's not free either.


----------



## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

> Chief Architect Home Designer Pro version 9 is what I use. Got it on Amazon for $400. It's a stripped down version of their more expensive programs. Fairly easy to learn, although I've just scratched the surface of what it can do. The rendering is pretty basic though. I like it better than Sketchup, but then it's not free either


Pretty basic? The rendering is ability is really very good. You can do standard, enhanced lighting, water color, and Impressionist style renders as well as squiggly line drawings and near photo quality stuff. 

I understand that Chief may have a new raytrace engine in the nest version too. I hope so because even though one can make a pretty good raytrace with the standard Pov_ray ray tracer it is not the best. 

mics is correct, I think that a 2d program would be the best thing for you now but there are no programs that I can think of that you can"add to it" later. TurboCAD might be the closest thing, get the TurboCAD Deluxe first then if you need to do some 3D stuff get the Pro version. 

Deluxe is about $100.00 and the Pro version is under a grand.

Andy.


----------



## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

A few more.



Andy.


----------



## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

SU does have a ruby script for 2D tools like line styles, hatch patterns etc for 2D work.


----------



## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

sooo
I had a little bit of success:clap:
I drew my kids playset I had drawn already
I also drew a garage
I drew these in sketchup 3d
Its like being in the matrix movie
That being said they are neat pictures
But I need buildable plans(Floor plans and elevations)
I think I am going to make a commitment to either sketchup or chief arc
So I guess my question is if I do not mind drawing in 3d 
Which program is easier to get the pictures into a buildable set of plans

Thanks for all the help, Eric


----------



## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> Which program is easier to get the pictures into a buildable set of plans


CA is a dedicated architectural construction documents program. The answer to this question seems obvious. If building construction documents is all you want to produce, Chief already has all the templates, models, details, textures and setup specific to the industry. 

If you need something more versatile to illustrate other objects or graphics....well...decisions, decisions. 

I use SU and build a 3D model of every project. I use SU and Turbocad. Both programs will produce files that can be opened for editing in the other. 

Recently I have stopped using Turbocad because the upgrades cost more than they were worth to me. 

If you are making plans that you need to build something rather than produce a set of printed documents (I use my laptop on the job for plans) to give to subs, city hall, (many are accepting electronic documents now) clients, etc. If you need documents of this type you also have to be able to print them in at least 24x36 format. 

I find that having an accurate model on my laptop is more functional than a set of printed documents. I can extract any data and do any calculation and change any item on the fly. 

If you want to produce a set of plans in which every part of the plan can be extracted to excel to make a list of materials and their dimensions to create cutlists and extract the data for cost or perhaps precutting all the pieces prior to beginning the actually assembly on the jobsite...

...then you need to think out of the box.


----------



## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

You bring up a good point about the updates
Will any of these programs require pricey or constant updates


----------



## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> Will any of these programs require pricey or constant updates


of course...most software companies issue upgrades annually or more often. TC upgrades normally cost 100-200 dollars depending on the options and versions. Their last upgrade offer I recieved yesterday was almost 500 bucks to upgrade from platinum v14 to v17. To date I have about 2 grand tied up in the program. Its a good value but far from free.

I'm sure CA costs hundreds per year.


----------



## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

chief arc is very difficult
much more difficult to get going than su
Are the ext measurments always inside sheating
is that something i can change later
Any wall advice would be very nice


----------



## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Yes, you can change the measurements in CA to measure to where you want them to.

And there is a yearly SSA fee ($395) that includes access to all company-made training videos and web-training, as well as new version updates that fall within that year. Updates to current versions are always "free".


----------



## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

nailkiller1 said:


> chief arc is very difficult
> much more difficult to get going than su
> Are the ext measurments always inside sheating
> is that something i can change later
> Any wall advice would be very nice


Probably the toughtst CAD program I ever attempted. I finally just took it off my computer.


----------



## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

Willie T said:


> Probably the toughtst CAD program I ever attempted. I finally just took it off my computer.


That my friend is not encuoraging
I am not used to this level of frustration and failure
I will have to give it a fresh start tomorrow


----------



## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Willie, what version did you last try? I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box (shut up, peanut gallery :laughing, but I didn't find chief too terrible (started with v 9.5 in '03), but I do realize we are all different.

Just didn't want to scare nailkiller (if you're a killer, ya shouldn't be too scared of anything else :shifty.

J

now, on the same note, sketchup gives me a pain in the arse :laughing:


----------



## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

Willie T said:


> Probably the toughtst CAD program I ever attempted. I finally just took it off my computer.


I find that statement a little shocking. I have to ask what do you use. What do you think is easier (please don't say "anything")?


----------



## redwood (Dec 5, 2007)

You might want to look into DataCad light. Created by architects for architects and builders.

It doesn't have some of the presentation bells and whistles, of it's competetors, but it doesn't sound like you need those.

You can upgrade to the full version in the future. There are no service contracts or requirements to upgrade.

They have demo versions.

WWW.datacad.com


----------



## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

Me again


Scared no
To Dumb maybe

Well I got no where with chief arc

I am thinking about going back to sketchup for a bit
In sketchup hows hard is it to get everything in 2d and plotted

Do I want to just buy the pro system
or the free version(difference?)

Thanks again all


----------



## Static Design (Nov 30, 2008)

Don't buy pro until you get proficient in the free version, if you want a 2d version in SU such as a floor plan: draw your building, then take the section tool and drag it down in the blue axis. This will cut the walls down making the interior viewable, depending on how far you drag the walls down you will use this method to do interior design work. For elevation drawings just click the different view icons to get the view port you're looking for then export that view as a 2d jpeg.


----------



## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

You don't now nor probably will you ever need the pro version of SU unless they change the pro version to limit the tools.

The pro version of SU only includes the ability to create dynamic components (you can still use them in the free version) and it includes the layout plugin which is more or less just added publishing options. It has some nice printing options in it but I doubt you'll use them if you had them.

If you want 2D drawings in SU down load and install the 2D tools rb. It has options for line styles and hatch patterns and 2D curves and fonts, chamfers, polygons, There is no need to draw everything in 3D and then modifying and hiding or section cuts. There is also a help file included in the rb. script.


----------



## Static Design (Nov 30, 2008)

mics_54 said:


> You don't now nor probably will you ever need the pro version of SU unless they change the pro version to limit the tools.
> 
> The pro version of SU only includes the ability to create dynamic components (you can still use them in the free version) and it includes the layout plugin which is more or less just added publishing options. It has some nice printing options in it but I doubt you'll use them if you had them.
> 
> ...



SU pro has more then creating dynamics, export features is where you see the main difference between the two. And if you're drawing everything in 2D on SU; that is a very inefficient way of drawing in this program.


----------



## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

> Well I got no where with chief arc


What version of Chief are you using?
There are a great many tutorials available with Chief and this place has free tutorials that really are tops.

http://www.chieftutor.com/

I started with AutoCAD back in 2000 but since I got Chief I know I will never go back to 2D program no matter how sophisticated the 2D tools are, and AutoCAD has the most complete set. 

I also use Revit which is a great program but I find that most of what I need to do I can do quicker in Chief. 

Email me if you are having troubles with Chief and I will see what I can do to help you out. I am not a certified trainer with Chief but I have taught others.

Andy.


----------



## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

I am getting a little confused
Do all of you draw everything in 3d?
Do you give the subs 3d plans? the city?
I do like the 3d, but site scaling and things like that would be a problem not? 
I need to get up to speed I guess

If this is the case I may be 20 years behind with my 2d pencil drawings:no:


----------



## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

Do you guys get paid to post about Chief Architect? Just curious.

Demo each software package out there and find one that fits what you are wanting to do. I use multiple pieces of software to achieve what I want the final product to be. ArchiCAD, Sketchup, Photoshop, V-Ray Etc..


----------



## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

moorewarner said:


> I find that statement a little shocking. I have to ask what do you use. What do you think is easier (please don't say "anything")?


I started with AutoCAD Rev 12, and quit buying it after 2000i. I still have that on my computer, and it is fun, fulfilling most of the needs I have. Just can't justify buying any more Auto Desk products at the price asked when I'm mostly retired now.

I bought Turbo Cad several years back, and went with a few upgrades till I felt it, too, wasn't worth throwing $ at.

I got SU (the free version) about a year after it came out (ver. 5, I think), and although it drove me nuts learning it, I use it almost exclusively now. (ver. 7) I draw mainly for clarifying ideas and showing concepts anymore. SU fills the bill nicely.

I downloaded a trial version of Chief about three months ago. It seemed to be a total headache to accomplish anything. Gave it about 15 hours, and decided it just was not for me.


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

nailkiller1 said:


> Me again
> 
> 
> Scared no
> ...


I think you might be barking up the wrong tree.

Sketch up is a design program,it's great for creating wow type 3D designs to illustrate a concept or a design for a customer.

It's NOT a contractor business friendly program - I'n not referring to the learning curve, but it's not built for construction. You want measurements, you're going to have to put them in one at a time. You want a take off? Forget it.

It depends on what you are trying to do an what you ultimately need.

If you wanted to create design concepts it's great for that.

If you are wanting to design and then build, it's almost 100% useless. Everything will be a work around to accomplish that. You can do it, but you'll be doing it manually for maybe hours, instead of pressing one or two buttons in a few seconds.


----------



## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

Cole said:


> Do you guys get paid to post about Chief Architect? Just curious.


I'm not sure if that is an honest question or a dig. If it's an honest question then no, and to do so would without disclosing would be deceptive.

Come to to think of it that just feels a little insulting either way.

I was in the "what's your favorite recip. saw" thread last night and if singing the praises of tools that work for you=being a paid shill then this board is flooded with Milwaukee and Makita reps, and Warner should be CEO of Festool. :laughing: 

And apparently we have quite a few folks on Google's payroll as well to judge by some of the die-hard Sketchup fans.

It's just the love of a good tool thing, software is just another tool.

Calling into question peoples honesty because they recommend a particular tool in threads where people are asking for tool recommendations seems a little, I don't know, odd?

Maybe I'm in left field maybe you guys get folks doing this, maybe it's not odd. If that's the case then my over-reaction, but if Chief is paying for mentions then where is *my*  check?


----------



## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

nailkiller1 said:


> I am getting a little confused
> Do all of you draw everything in 3d?
> Do you give the subs 3d plans? the city?
> I do like the 3d, but site scaling and things like that would be a problem not?
> I need to get up to speed I guess


It sounds like Sketchup mostly happens in 3D? but in traditional CAD it is done in 2D, all the 3D views are pretty much auto-generated (with plenty of ability to fiddle about to get the look you want). You can work in 3D (in Chief, I assume some others are the same) mode but I don't think most folks do that.


----------



## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

nailkiller1 said:


> I am getting a little confused
> Do all of you draw everything in 3d?
> Do you give the subs 3d plans? the city?
> I do like the 3d, but site scaling and things like that would be a problem not?
> ...


Welcome to the party. It took me years to figure out that there is no right answer.

Asking "do you draw in 3d" no, not really. We create a building model in the program. The program does most of the work.

I am just going to state in a general sense about some differences in software. I don't want anyone to start nitpicking about what I say, the guy is confused already.

There is CAD software and there is BIM software. You probably know about CAD, but BIM you may have not heard of. BIM stands for Building Information Modeling. 

AutoCAD, in general, draws lines. Most programs that have "CAD" in the title will GENERALLY be similar. They can do modeling, yes, but are not quite designed for the function of 3d building design. They have 3d modeling capabilities, but the function is much different than a BIM program.

Programs like Revit, ArchiCAD, Architectural Desktop, CA, SoftPlan are considered (again...in general) BIM programs.

What happens in BIM is that the software does much more work for you. There is information in the drawings that you are creating. It's not just a line that you are drawing. There are walls, floors, roofs, foundations, siding, insulation....and a whole boatload of information attached. All you see on the screen is a line, but behind the scene the program is working for you.

And for a simple example, if you move a wall in the programs plan view, all of your views will update automatically, like sections, elevations, materials lists.

SketchUp is a modeling program that falls a little short in the BIM category. It is a design program with some CAD like functioning. Most people who are contractors can and do use it for simple design, CAD, and visualization because it is in general, a really easy program to learn and there is more public support than any other program out there. And it's cheap.

Another program that falls somewhere in between is Rhino3D. That is a hard core CAD program with some very intense modeling capabilities. It will easily do CAD, sheets, printing, designing, elevations, renderings....the whole enchilada for half the cost of CA. And with a rendering plug in, it will absolutely smoke CA and SoftPlan in quality visualizations. But it falls far short of the efficiency in making working plans.

Revit and ArchiCAD are considered the upper end of BIM. I use Revit, Cole uses ArchiCAD. Extremely difficult to justify paying 5 grand especially since it is not an easy program to master. Thus there was a vaccuum at the 2-3 grand level and that is where CA and SoftPlan come in.

I tried SoftPlan, I really gave it time to do the thing it says it could do. It is an infuriating program. And with the lack of a free trial download, they aren't even worth a look for anyone seriously considering investing money.

CA...well, there seems to be an awful lot of you guys here. I can't say anything about the program, I have never tried it. I would guess it is right up the alley of SoftPlan but with a free trial. Whatever rocks your boat. If it works for you, great, but there are many who find it confusing and useless. I don't go around pumping Revit up because I know that almost all here cannot justify the expense and the immense time to learn and master it.

If you want to draw lines and that is all, there are a bazillion AutoCAD knockoffs for under $200. SketchUp, being free, will draw lines for you. You CAN easily do simple plans, elevations and whatnot with SketchUp, but it is not designed to be a CAD program.

Last point I will make is that if you continually need to make revisions, I will take 5 minutes to fix 20 pages and be assured that everything is correct. CAD, you will have to manually fix every single page and cross your fingers that you didn't miss something. Revit and ArchiCAD will do this, SketchUp will not. CA....I don't know. I'm guessing it will.


----------



## Fence (Mar 5, 2010)

mics_54 said:


> You don't now nor probably will you ever need the pro version of SU unless they change the pro version to limit the tools.
> 
> The pro version of SU only includes the ability to create dynamic components (you can still use them in the free version) and it includes the layout plugin which is more or less just added publishing options. It has some nice printing options in it but I doubt you'll use them if you had them.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that info, didn't know that sketchup also ran in 2d.


----------



## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> SU pro has more then creating dynamics, export features is where you see the main difference between the two. And if you're drawing everything in 2D on SU; that is a very inefficient way of drawing in this program.


I dont use it for 2 D at all....learn to read. The original post in this thread is a good place to start.


----------



## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*I just got my 9.5 up and running again,,*

man , I missed it,,wont run on windows 7, the learning curve is pretty high, but - it's all about templates- once you get your layout format , and some custom cad blocks,, it really isn't that bad- but your going to spend a lot of time learning,,,,, I say thumbs up for chief Architect,, looking at the X version,,,never ends:thumbsup:
Brian


----------

