# First time forming walls, need tips



## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

I'm heading to a remote-ish place in Alaska to build a garage with a friend. It needs 3' frost walls, and I've determined formed walls will be by far the cheapest.

This is a free project for an old friend, trying to keep cost to a minimum. No subs available.

I've never been on a form crew or even a project with formed walls, except long after the crew was done. It's been all monolithic slabs and ICFs for me, or coming in long after foundation walls are done.

Can I get away with 5/8" ply to re-use on the roof (maybe with 6-mi poly as a form-release)? It doesn't have to look great underground, some bowing is fine. What should my stud and whaler spacing be?

Flame away, I know it's a basic question.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Are you looking to form to 4' and pour 3'?

Any bowing will make stripping forms more difficult.

8" wall?

3 runs of 2x4 and staked 24" oc will get you close.

Willing to use form ties? Will put holes in your roof sheathing.

No flame, your presence here is pretty real...:thumbsup:

Didn't your OP say 1/2" ply? same response....


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Thanks Griz,

I changed to 5/8 because I looked up the snow load! It's a small 1 story building and can be a 6" wall.

I don't mind holes in the sheathing.

planned to just form 3' high, the 3' rip works with the roof run and the 12" rip will make shelves inside.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

I've done the 4' form & 3' pour using 1x2 at concrete height and then having 4' width ply to work with.

Ended up being easier than I anticipated.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

A normal 3/4 form ply with snap ties uses 10 ties per 4x8 4 about 8" from edge 8' way with 2 in middle. tthese where used with double 2x4s on ties. 1/2 ply might be pushing it, have to be careful not to over work the mud and clause a blowout. I think I would just skip the poly and use the smooth side with some oil on it. Hope this helps some. Going to mix the mud on site?


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

There is a batch plant and truck. Concrete starts at about $175 a yard.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Golden view said:


> There is a batch plant and truck. Concrete starts at about $175 a yard.


Wow!! makes me appreciate a buck and a quarter here....:whistling

Guess that's the price you pay for living in the last frontier...:thumbup:


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

Another thing guys here do on short ours in forms is to use nails for height kind of like pouring a slab with pins to go by. The 5/8 will make for a better roof specially if putting metal on.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

griz said:


> Wow!! makes me appreciate a buck and a quarter here....:whistling
> 
> Guess that's the price you pay for living in the last frontier...:thumbup:


Just got a quote the other day for 6 sack at 114 :thumbsup: and I was thinking that was high. Can remember the day of 35 a yard too. :laughing:


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

If I can't get a hold of ties, just how much bracing should I be planning on?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Randy Bush said:


> Just got a quote the other day for 6 sack at 114 :thumbsup: and I was thinking that was high. Can remember the day of 35 a yard too. :laughing:


35/yd....:laughing::thumbup:

You're older than I thought....:thumbsup:


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Randy Bush said:


> Just got a quote the other day for 6 sack at 114 :thumbsup: and I was thinking that was high. Can remember the day of 35 a yard too. :laughing:


Makes me think Fairbanks has pretty cheap concrete. About the same. There is an abundance of gravel and sand from the river.

This little job though is in a little place you can't drive to.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

griz said:


> 35/yd....:laughing::thumbup:
> 
> You're older than I thought....:thumbsup:


Just in age :thumbsup: I can still do a good days work. People always guess me alot younger then I am.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

You could use (galvanised)9-11ga. wire ties instead of form ties, but then must insure that forms can't pinch together, I've used water pipes as spreaders instead of conventional form ties.

Care during the forming and pouring of the footers will save many hours of cobbling later... If the footer is out of level when "finished": consider an oldstyle "Mud sill" of mortar between the sill plate and wavy footings, just buy/install 2" longer anchor bolts....


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

Golden view said:


> and I've determined formed walls will be by far the cheapest.
> 
> This is a free project for an old friend, trying to keep cost to a minimum. No subs available.
> 
> ...


Most of the times the cheapest for the non experienced is by far the costliest, 
I wish you the best of luck.

By myself I can form and pour a basic 3000sq.ft. basement in 1 week. 
teardown 2 days after


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

Golden view said:


> There is a batch plant and truck. Concrete starts at about $175 a yard.


Wow a "remotish" place with a batch plant. I need to change my definition of remote. :whistling


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Randy Bush said:


> Just got a quote the other day for 6 sack at 114 :thumbsup: and I was thinking that was high. Can remember the day of 35 a yard too. :laughing:







Wow ! I feel ancient,I remember $ 26 :laughing:


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

I think if you can't get ties locally, then you may be able to use ready rod, bolts, and washers. Also pvc pipe for spacers. 
I think you can increase your o. C spacing as well.
I'm not explaining this well enough... And it's not really cost effective, but it's another idea. 
And 5/8th will be fine for form ply. I like the idea of using 6mil poly for a release agent.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

This article may help you. http://www.jlconline.com/Images/Part II_tcm96-1846362.pdf


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

griz said:


> ....
> Any bowing will make stripping forms more difficult.
> ....


Amen. Don't skimp on the excavation or the bracing. Pulling form ply out of the ground where the forms have bowed is profoundly unsatisfying work. Or so I've heard.:jester:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

A 3' pour has very little hydrostatic pressure. Studs every 2'-30", stakes at the bottom, 1 whaler in the middle another at the top and some wooden cleats as ties on top and some spreaders in between the studs, I can't see much at that short height. 5/8" should be plenty with enough studs

What poly DOES do even more than acting as a release is to bring the paste forward and make a more water proof face, although it will usually wrinkle some


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Thanks everyone. Called around, snap ties are no problem, but they won't loan me wedges which cost more than the ties. Every $100 counts... But in the end I don't want a blow out.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

This is how i would do it personally


Studs are run horizontally, better to use 2x6 but I'm assuming you'll want to reuse the studs in the framing so if you're framing with 2x4 then use them, it should be plenty. Whalers are often 4x4 but if you have no use for 4x4 then use some scrap 2x4 doubled up, same for the spreaders. Rebar as pins against the whalers and against the props, wedges to keep tight. Nailed with 3" common nails and wire through the bottom plate into the footing every 4' or so


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## pritch (Nov 2, 2008)

A couple questions:

Are there footing involved?
Footings to nail plates down to can make your life simpler.

What type of snap ties were you quoted? 
You mention "wedges" and that makes me think Symons forms, which you don't have. About the only thing that works well with walers are Jahn A's and Gates Cam-Locks. there are others, but these would be the most common. Neither of these will properly tighten up on 5/8" ply, but once the mud hit it it will be OK, just have to watch them close when you vibrate... (assuming)


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Yes there's a footing. The top of the wall I need to form is 6" above grade. I'm out of my element with commonly used ties. I'm guessing the supply house has what's usually used. I'll ask when I get there at the end of the month.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Golden view said:


> Yes there's a footing. The top of the wall I need to form is 6" above grade. I'm out of my element with commonly used ties. I'm guessing the supply house has what's usually used. I'll ask when I get there at the end of the month.


Wedge ties, snap ties work well....

Also, tie wire, pulled across the forms and twisted tight with a nail on each side has worked very well in a pinch...and when $$ were tight.:thumbsup:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

griz said:


> Wedge ties, snap ties work well....
> 
> Also, tie wire, pulled across the forms and twisted tight with a nail on each side has worked very well in a pinch...and when $$ were tight.:thumbsup:





Also, metal banding and 8 penny duplex nails are a concrete crews' best friend. ! Especially if you use them with the band tensioner.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Well crap, after all this we found a local guy who has a container of ICFs for good pricing. I couldn't find anything before, and freight was crazy. Anyone ever built with Nudura ICFs?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Yes and no, just helped out a few times...pretty straightforward. But Chris Johnson def has, as well as framing pro and I think Joasis


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Just an update on this little project, got it finished with the Nudura forms, which are awesome.

The only hickup on the project was the 40,000 pound boulder in the way


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## Half Moon (Apr 29, 2014)

This may be helpful for you.
http://www.uaf.edu/files/ces/publications-db/catalog/eeh/HCM-00952.pdf


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