# Is licensing a joke where you live?



## BuildersII (Dec 20, 2009)

Just thought a little rant about bureaucracy was in order after this week...

I see people on here all the time complaining about uninsured and unlicensed contractors. I completely agree that an uninsured contractor is irresponsible because they will not have the means to repair major damage stemming from a freak accident, however is an unlicensed contractor really that bad?

Our company has had a license for the last 10 years since it was made mandatory, and I just got done with my own individual builder's license. Basically it cost me $1000, 2-3 days of running around the city taking a class on how to use the ICC code book, taking a very simple test on how to use the code book, filling out paperwork, paying fees, etc and I'm no better off for it in the real world. Seriously, the logic just wreaks of government ineptitude.

I need a license legally is to pull permits because otherwise I'd be considered too inexperienced to take on dangerous work such as structural alterations. However, when I pull a permit, all my work must be laid out by an architect first, then inspected by a certified city inspector that everything was done correctly. If I were to do that work on my own home, I wouldn't need a license to pull the permit. So my question is, since all work has to be inspected anyways, why the hell do I need a license for being a builder? And why am I being strongarmed into paying ridiculous sums such as $100 to sit in a chair for 4 hours and take a test, $250 on a code book, $100 just for applying, $200 for a yearly fee just for having a license, $50 for being sponsored by my county and additional fees for every jurisdiction surrounding that I want to do work in?

here in KC, about half the jurisdictions require the ICC exam (which is a joke), and then there are the ones that just want money. $50 in Lee's Summit and you can build a house. But Lee's Summit is one of about 40 cities surrounding KC that I could theoretically do work in, so for each job that requires a permit, there's a potential for added fees.

Honestly, aren't all of you out there tired of the government taking their cut of EVERYTHING you do? I sure would've liked to have paid myself a $1000 bonus instead of wasting it on a plastic card with a horrible picture of me on it.

Tell me that licensing isn't just some "feel good" legislation that can never be enforced. I will never work without liability insurance, but I could easily see foregoing licensing and still sleep soundly at night.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

You are right, it is a joke. Until they truly enforce the rules, legit contractors are getting the shaft. I recently did the framing on a room addition in Lee's Summit for a General Contractor , But the permit was obtained by the homeowner ,who doesn't have to go by the rules.
Makes me feel kind of dirty, but times are tough and I was glad to get the job.And the homeowner works for the city!

Another thing that I think is messed up , is there are contractors doing jobs out there that aren't licensed, so they hire a licensed guy to get the permit . I have even seen adds on craigslist soliciting this stuff.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

IMO the plus side of licensing is the customer has recourse if something goes wrong.They can contact the CSLB to resolve a problem.If a contractor is shady then they will not be able to keep a license in good standing.With no licensing at all all a crook has to do is change their phone number and the HO is more than likely out of luck.

Also in California contractors must go through a sheriffs background check.Being that in many cases a contractor will be in peoples homes alone (and not alone for that matter) that can not be a bad thing.The CSLB also makes sure the contractor has a current bond.

And while the test is not the toughest thing to pas it would keep out a DIY'er that thinks they are all of a sudden ready to be a contractor and take peoples more for their work...


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## jocobe (Nov 1, 2005)

In Maryland it's a joke. Our local newspapers and circulars are filled with ads from unlicensed contractors. No one ever asks me if I'm licensed, but I have been for 20 years.


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

The system needs to change.

Until then, you're right...more or less it's BS. 

2 Things:

-QUALIFICATIONS
-ENFORCEMENT

Qualifications: You need to be qualified for the work before getting licensed. To me, this comes in 2 forms: Proven documentation of qualifications (Trade school, certifications, apprenticeships, etc.) *AND/OR *taking a proper exam, requiring a certain passing grade (say 70%) that thoroughly tests your knowledge of the trade for which you are applying.

Not some BS test. A 2-4 hour long, proper examination of: The building code, rules and regulations, actual trade specific questions, etc.

This would ensure that carpenters/GC's that are "old school" or have come up in the trades with "hands on" experience have a fair opportunity to demonstrate their knowledge and get licensed.

NOT making EVERYONE prove 7000 of apprentice hours, so many certificates, so on and so on. That's optional to having to take the exam.

This would ensure that EVERY single licensed GC out there has gone through rigorous/difficult examinations (not unlike any other "professional" designation). Then the license would ACTUALLY mean something, it would raise the bar of entry only to those that are qualified, and a GC designation could actually become a respectable title.

Like the testing for becoming a building inspector or registered designer or code agency.

#2- ENFORCEMENT- Self explanatory. Crack down, and crack down hard.

It is against the law to call yourself a Lawyer, Doctor, Engineer and sell your services to the public. When caught, you face heavy fines, criminal charges and possible jail time.

I don't get it...is it in the Gov't's interest to have so many unlicensed contractors out there? Is it an economic issue? Why are they afraid of regulating our industry?

How much will it take for GC's to get some respect?

An architect still needs to have permits/inspections on EVERY project they build. But their profession is heavily regulated. Us? We can BUILD that project and all you need is some bs annual fee, a day of your time, some bs test that the mole on my azz can answer and you're in 

And if you don't have it...it's ok...they won't do anything to you anyways.

Yeah...it's hard to NOT feel like a sucker being "legit". It's like I'm donating my money to the Gov't for chits and giggles. Here...for $500 you get a shiny plastic card


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## CilasConcrete (Aug 12, 2010)

*Florida is a challenge*

I know the Florida license test isnt a joke!! 20+ hours of testing. Seminars it was alot of work for me


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## S0VERE1GN (Aug 13, 2010)

no licensing nessecary in Vermont, although we have one with insurance. we didn't have licensing for the longest time though.


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## rotarex (Mar 31, 2008)

If we are all equal who gets the job?


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## olligator (Nov 23, 2007)

Yes, we have to suffer through 2 8-hour days of testing in Florida. Yes, we have to be a financially reponsible officer for our company, carry insurance, and WC for any employees. The state also snatches an extra $250+ for renewal each year, plus the mandatory continuing ed. They also require 4yrs of documented experience under a licensed GC who must sign off on that experience just to apply for the licensure. I know that California is highly regulated in a similar fashion. The nice thing is that there's no way your common craigslist hack is going to score that license. Although there's always some guys that make you wonder... ...But no, the license doesn't feel like a joke to me- just the enforcement.

I never felt like it was a money-grab from the state either, because compared to total overhead, the cost for just the licensure and continung ed is pretty low.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

I concur with everything said about the Florida Licenses. I have a General ("A"), and it was kind of tough to get. In all, schools, books, fees, motels and travel, it cost a few thousand bucks too. The renewal fees aren't bad though... $250, I think. And continuing education costs about $300 every two years. The CE is about the best thing about the licensing.

Now as for it qualifying you to actually be a builder.... no way. The work verification is supposed to do that, I guess. But it does zero in on a lot of business and regulatory information and skills that are seemingly more important than actual construction knowledge anymore.

One thing that I thought was good about having to get a license is that I chose to take some college training rather than opt for the two week cram courses the Super Prep Companies sell. I know I learned easily 200 times what I would have gotten from one of those quick classes. That has really made a difference in my approach to the construction business over the years.

My big gripe is the ridiculous fees the insurance companies soak us for. I could honestly take my wife out for a nice dinner every single night of the week, all year long, for what insurances and bonds have cost me.


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## bauler (Nov 10, 2006)

Yes its a joke. I like what you say about inspections and permits. We are suppose to know what we are doing, aren't we? Could you imagine what it would be like if you needed inspections to have your car worked on, dental work, ect. The trouble with licenses of any kind is the bad guys just don't bother with it...


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

> since all work has to be inspected anyways, why the hell do I need a license for being a builder?


To avoid shutting the barn door after the horse is already out?

When I read things like this, it reminds of a book I read about some gangsters that came to a town to set up a front business. After all the fees and red tape they had to go through, one of them says, " They call us gangsters?" or something to that effect.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

bauler said:


> Yes its a joke. I like what you say about inspections and permits. We are suppose to know what we are doing, aren't we? Could you imagine what it would be like if you needed inspections to have your car worked on, dental work, ect. The trouble with licenses of any kind is the bad guys just don't bother with it...


 

First of all, I am licensed in the towns that require licensing for us to do business in. The State of Illinois & Indiana do not license masons. 

Having said all that:

Licensing is Anti-Free Market and basically used as "Revenue Enhancement" or in some places ( like the state of Michigan) as a "Protectionist Sceme". You have to keep in mind that most state licensing boards are comprised of persons already in the business – to decide who will and will not be permitted to compete with them. The system is rigged in most places, that's just the way it is. 

Until things change, if they ever do, I recommend complying with the BS and get your license(s) in the places that you do business in.


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## JonM (Nov 1, 2007)

In Connecticut...we pay into a Home Improvement Guaranty Fund...The homeowner can only collect from that fund, if they are dealing with a licensed contractor.


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## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

In Michigan we pay into a Lien Recovery Fund, which by the State's own admission is bankrupt and is most likely going to be abolished through legislative action in the future. 

The collapse of the residential construction business in Michigan means that there are fewer pockets to collect from . . . . . . .


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## BuildersII (Dec 20, 2009)

Glad to know I'm not alone here.

To the Florida Guys:

Yeah, I've heard about how licensing is crazy difficult to get down there due to substandard building practices in an area that gets such a high concentration of hurricanes. I've also heard that it's pretty expensive to procure your license. Here's the irony I see.

1. The substandard building practices were probably mostly committed by large builders using cheap inexperienced labor and the cheapest possible materials because they are a volume-based business rather than a service-based business that relies on high quality. At least that's how it is here in KC, and I'm assuming that the economics of FL aren't much different. These guys use OSB for subflooring, pvc supply lines for plumbing, board and bat for siding (even today they're still using that smart panel garbage), ceramic tile over drywall in showers, wood trim that butts up against shower bases, front doors secured only by 18ga pin nails, etc. This stuff may not be against code (well they did make tile over drywall in showers a no-no, but still...) but it's certainly cheap and prone to problems down the line. Almost every hack job we've gone in to fix was committed at the time of new construction or when it was remodeling, it was done by a big company like Home Depot Home Services.

2. By making the tests that time consuming and expensive to get, they're basically making it so that only the big companies can survive. Also, they only test one person, while that person is free to hire whatever hacks he wants. What ever happened to the craftsman working out of the back of a truck with some knowledge and tools (and insurance :thumbsup ?

Sigh. All I am is a big walking bag of complaints. Either way, I'm legit, but it doesn't mean jack in the grand scheme of things.


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

Geez I like living in Maine.....you guys are licensed drunk...:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

TO THE FLORIDA GUYS:

Admittedly, my rant was Toronto based and I didn't take in the full scope of the reality throughout different regions.

My question is...what led to the Laws changing in your state to require what sounds like pretty rigorous standards for licensing? I'm sure it wasn't always like this...what led to the change, when did it happen and most importantly...do you feel that it's made a real difference in:

-How your trade in perceived in the eyes of John Q. Public
-Your "illegal" competition
-Your competition in general.

It's hard to make a comparison, since you LIVE in Florida...but I imagine you are still in tune with what your neighbours might be dealing with.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

From what I read the illegals are going strong as ever all things considered. But,


> they only test one person, while that person is free to hire whatever hacks he wants


 I guess that explains it.


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## IanS (Sep 18, 2009)

I have seen and worked for plenty of licensed contractors here in Fl that don't know what they are doing. 
They fake their knowledge and have a buddy sign off their experience. Or you just need a degree in underwater basket weaving instead of experience. 
I think this was covered in "Bags on or Bags Off"


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

RWA those are some good recommendations. Think of all the shoddy work DIY homeowners were allowed to perform while taking jobs form competent contractors.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Willie T said:


> Several remarks have been made that I would like to comment about.
> 
> The only one I will address in this post is the general statement that most exams seem to be a joke. From what I've read, unfortunately, "Yes, they do." But that changes nothing. Let's face it, driving exams are a joke in a lot of places........ and I haven't had to take one here in the land of the walking dead, waiting for their hearts to stop, for at least thirty years. I just send in my money, and they send me a new license... as long as I continue to have no accidents.
> 
> ...


Willie, that is an insulting post.

I live in a state where they don't require licensing and I can and do build with the best of them. In fact since my forced retirement, I have been handymaning in the expensive parts of town. Am I insured, yep, do I need a license to work? nope.

To imply that because I think that licensing laws are all a joke, including Florida's, makes me a poor carpenter or contractor is just nuts.

By the way, Florida's licensing laws were originally in place to restrict Yankees from coming down there and setting up shop. In other words a restraint of trade.

That is what licensing does, restrain trade. Docs have to pass a test, does that make them a good doctor? No. Lawyers have to pass a test. Does that make them good lawyers? Nope.

All licensing does is restrain trade and raise money for localities. A better solution is for every municipality to require insurance, both liability and W/C and enforce the codes. That would be protection, not some silly law requiring licenses.

Now after saying that, if your locality requires a license to work, by all means get one. But, the problem is too many think a license is proof of something and it is not, other than gov giving permission to carry on and do business.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Framer53 said:


> *All licensing does is restrain trade and raise money for localities.* A better solution is for every municipality to require insurance, both liability and W/C and enforce the codes. That would be protection, not some silly law requiring licenses.


That's all a license does?Really?

How about giving a customer recourse....

Contractor A is unlicensed.He does a crappy job,rips someone off,leaves a dead day laborer that fell off the clients roof in the backyard under a pile of leafs or any number of other things that bad contractors do.

All he has to do is stop answering his phone (or maybe change the number) and he is off to the next job.

Contractor B is licensed and insured and does the same stuff contractor A did.
Client can go to the CSLB and get restitution.Then contractor B is no longer licensed.

If people would only use licensed and insured contractors we would hear a lot less horror stories...

AGAIN....(because I can already hear the "Licensed contractor can rip people off and do crappy work too" argument) A bad contractor will not be a licensed contractor for long....Just go to the Cali CSLB page and look at all the guy's that have had their license suspended or revoked.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Jumbo, you missed the point.

Lisencing is restraint of trade. I know what your laws purport to do. How well in the real world does it work? I suspect not very well or you and others that complain about unlisenced contractors wouldn't be complaining. I have read too man complaints here and on other forums about how Cal doesn't enforce the licensing laws.

I think instead of licenses there ought to be more enforcement by the building departments as to codes and insurance requirements. Depending on a license is just nonsense to get or prove how good you are.

I know what the laws intent is, but it fails miserably or you and others wouldn't complain about our southern cousins that come here and work without licenses.

With what your municipalities charge for permits and hook up fees, they ought to be able to patrol and stop the un-permitted work. Even that is complained about.

I would rather that the market decides who does well rather than have a state agency try to make contractors and others comply with unenforceable regulations.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Licensing would be a joke if we had it. Hairdressers need to be licensed here. I mean really...that's way more danger and liability than say someone building a 4000 sf home.

I understand what you say Framer53, but using your scenario, why would we need drivers licenses then?


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

The theory of licensing is good. It isn't a tool to restrain trade, it's there to protect the public. Can't claim to know how your governing forces work, but our system works. Permit fees are reasonable, and inspectors are fair. 

Our license process was an open book test, journeyman card, and pay a fee ($400). Oh yeah, you can purchase, whatever, it was the Cliffs Notes of hvac license. Does it guarantee field competency? Hell no. But, at least it weeded out people who can't read. You don't need to be all Shakspearean, but fella, is it asking too much to know how to scan tables of contents, indexes, and glossaries?


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Flash, I wish I could do more than only one "Thanks" for that statement.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Flash University offers programs in reading, writing, math, and manity faire beauty secrets as well. To enroll, just call 37-flash.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

in new construction licensing is a bit of joke around here, big name builders who are putting up 100 homes plus dont care who they use how things look as long as it gets done fast. this goes both for homes and rental unit buildings.. just today the roofer on our current project was telling us how he approached a builder about doing some shingling for them after he saw 3 houses in a row with shingle courses that were wavier than the atlantic... anyhow when the builder told the roofer what they pay his jaw dropped, $10 a bundle, you have to have your own wcb plus haul away the garbage. so most of the guys doing this work arent paying their insurance. taxes and what not.

where i work mostly in reno, most of the homeowners around here dont want a revolving door of trades coming and going. they like the sense of security of knowing who all the guys are working on their home and are willing to pay a higher price to know they dont have to worry about their home being burned down or robbed. the sad thing is trying to explain this sort of thing to the douchebag builders who laugh at guys like us when we give them a price yet dont understand why the guys they use arent available for 5-10......:whistling


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## pghremodeling (Sep 19, 2010)

In Pennsylvania contractors who perform at least $5,000 worth of home improvements per year must register with the Attorney General's Office. Thats home improvements, not new construction, so new construction contractors do not have to register. There is no test, no background check, you pay $50 and fill out a form. In order to fill out the form, you must have insurance. Its so consumers know that if the contractor is registered they are insured, but consumers are still not protected from someone who does not know what they are doing because anyone with $50 and insurance can become registered. 

On another note it drives me crazy when I see contractors advertising that they are licensed and insured in PA when they really mean to say they are registered and insured.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

pghremodeling said:


> In Pennsylvania contractors who perform at least $5,000 worth of home improvements per year must register with the Attorney General's Office. Thats home improvements, not new construction, so new construction contractors do not have to register. There is no test, no background check, you pay $50 and fill out a form. In order to fill out the form, you must have insurance. Its so consumers know that if the contractor is registered they are insured, but consumers are still not protected from someone who does not know what they are doing because anyone with $50 and insurance can become registered.
> 
> On another note it drives me crazy when I see contractors advertising that they are licensed and insured in PA when they really mean to say they are registered and insured.


So you hold a journeymans ticket? If you do renos, I would hope it is in carpentry.

Licenced to me means you hold a C of Q in your trade. Which is the only trade you are supposed to be doing.


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## pghremodeling (Sep 19, 2010)

katoman said:


> So you hold a journeymans ticket? If you do renos, I would hope it is in carpentry.
> 
> Licenced to me means you hold a C of Q in your trade. Which is the only trade you are supposed to be doing.


I was referring to general contractor licensing. You can become a licensed plumber or electrician, but in some municipalities you do not have to be licensed to perform these trades, your work just needs to pass inspection. Also you can get certifications for asbestos or lead work. 

We do remodeling and like I said there is no licensing process for that, just registering with the state and following the laws set forth in the Pennsylvania Home Improvement Consumer Protection Act. I don't hold a journeymans ticket, I have a degree in engineering and my trade is solving problems.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

My trade is solving problems also, does that mean I have a degree in engineering? Cool.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

flashheatingand said:


> My trade is solving problems also, does that mean I have a degree in engineering? Cool.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Now I can add "P.Eng" to my list of qualifications.


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## JamesDibben (Apr 5, 2010)

(just as a side note, construction is a joke where I live)


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## brooklynite (Nov 12, 2009)

I can confirm in California it is NOT a joke. You can be arrested and put in jail for even giving an estimate for work over $500 to a homeowner. Hell you can even be arrested for ADVERTISING that you can do any kind of construction work without a license.

In CA everything has a license, well maybe not breathing. They even have a Contractor Salesperson License. As long as you keep paying the fees, the state makes sure the exams are very easy for everyone to pass. 

So, me as a homeowner, ignore the license, I need someone that can do correct work and knows what he is doing.


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## Bonzai (Dec 23, 2009)

I've had multiple sources tell me how surprised they are that I have any work (and especially that I am busy) 'cos their friends are just using buddies who are out of work construction workers to do stuff for them ... obviously running a professional business I can't compete with some guy charging $20/hr who has no insurance or business license & who is being paid cash. Obviously he has to stick to the likes of Craigslist to advertise whereas I can use more conventional means. Ask me when they start enforcing the rules around here and I'll say how well I think it's working ;-)


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## travelcoater (Sep 16, 2010)

Rob PA said:


> I would venture to say 9 out of 10 local contractors have no insurance


 I bet if you're from Indiana you probably know about that freak from Bolivar who rides around in a little white astro van, taking the deposit checks from little old ladies, and RUNNING back up into the hills! 

That piece of plankton is EXACTLY the reason why we need tighter restrictions and more enforcement in this state....prime example.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Tighter enforcement will just jack up the cost to us...then to the customer. The best way to battle this is to inform your prospects that you are licensed and insured. Encourage them to ask that of all their interviewees. If the competition isn't insured, licensed...etc and the homeowner doesn't care, don't *****. They weren't going to be a good prospect in the first place. Sometimes, we don't lose jobs on price, but, they feel more comfortable with someone else.


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