# Wet particle board: yummy



## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

Hey guys, any quick fixes for kitchen counter where water has got under the arborite around the sink and done it's thing? The guy who built the counter suggested bondo after scraping the loose stuff out from under the top. I dunno.... I remember years ago with something similar, scoring the surface til I was through, cutting the crap out, backing, filling, sanding, and resurfacing with a 'complementary' color that the customer (my girlfriend) chose. I s'pose I could do that again if I had to, but the customer (a real one) doesn't want a colour change, and I don't like the idea of two seams near the sink, any tricks/tips out there? Rich.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I can't help ya cause I have no idea what arborite is...


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Bite the bullet and replace, it will be cheaper in the long run.


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

Yep, Teetor, I totally agree, but you know what it's like. I guess arborite is a trade name Mike, I have only ever heard it called that here. It's the material that counter tops are made from that gets contact cemented down to particle board or mdf. Often comes with rolled edges and an integral splash. What's the generic name? Likely she will replace, she just wants to get a little more out of it right now. I'd prefer to tile it.  Rich.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

The generic name is 'cheapest'. LOL
I wouldn't waste any time on it, the worse that it gets, the quicker it will be moved up the 'to do' list.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

> Arborite is a leading manufacturer of decorative high-pressure laminate. Since its foundation in 1948, Arborite pioneered much of the technology behind today’s high-pressure laminates. Our reputation is built on quality products, great selection and dependable service. It’s no wonder Arborite has become synonymous with high-pressure laminate.


Ripped from Arborite.com


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

reveivl said:


> I guess arborite is a trade name Mike, I have only ever heard it called that here. It's the material that counter tops are made from that gets contact cemented down to particle board or mdf. Often comes with rolled edges and an integral splash. What's the generic name?


I think the proper name is laminate counters. Around here most people call it Formica. Just like gelatin desserts most people call Jello. If they are not built in place but ordered they are called post formed laminate counter tops.

Laminate is generally considered unfixable around here, even though there are fix kits available. I've seen them before on the Internet so I'm sure you could find them if you looked hard enough.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> If they are not built in place but ordered they are called post formed laminate counter tops.


Either one can be ordered, - - but 'post-formed' can't be built in place.

Post-formed are curved and 'one-piece' (except for the cheap 'iron-on' sides), - - whereas 'self-edged' countertops are squared and flat and separate pieces applied to the substrate.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Need we continue on about cheap kitchens? IMHO particleboard has no place there, it IS going to get wet and WILL fall apart sooner or later. You can apply this to baths too.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Come on now teetor, there is a place for everything, it all has to do with budget. Laminate revolutionized kitchens, it is one of the cheapest counter materials, but not everybody is able or willing to spend $50 sq ft and up, so it has its place. Its certainly a you get what you pay for material but so is everything else.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Mike, laminates are just the surface, they can be bonded to most anything. Why they choose particleboard as a substrate in areas that anyone knows will be wet sooner or later defeats me.


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

Maybe I'll just delay until the sink drops into the cupboard below. LOL. This particular laminate top is not preformed but was built elsewhere and moved in. As I said in the first post I have replaced sections of the laminate before, but as Teetor would no doubt advise, it probably isn't cost effective. I'll price out a new one and keep talking about tile. In asking around, they do make a waterproof mdf, but it costs more so it's not commonly used, but you'd think in the area of the kitchen sink it would be worth it, duh!!! Rich.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I use marine ply only. Consider labor/ material costs even if you are doing it yourself.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Teetorbilt said:


> Mike, laminates are just the surface, they can be bonded to most anything. Why they choose particleboard as a substrate in areas that anyone knows will be wet sooner or later defeats me.


Particle-board is chosen as the substrate for laminates because it is perfectly flat, it's porosity makes for an excellent glue-bond, and it is not only more 'stable' than plywood, - - but it's stability factor is more 'dimensionally-matched' to the laminate material itself.

As with all construction-related issues, - - good installation is the 'key' to longevity, - - the exposed sides of the sink-cutout areas and the exposed underside (above the dishwasher door) should be 'sealed' to prevent these types of future problems. It takes a surprisingly 'minimal' effort and sets you apart from the 'other guys'.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Teetorbilt said:


> Mike, laminates are just the surface, they can be bonded to most anything. Why they choose particleboard as a substrate in areas that anyone knows will be wet sooner or later defeats me.



$$$ 

I would have to believe if the customer can afford the extra costs involved in creating a bullet proof laminate counter they would be just pennies away from being able to afford solid surface counters anyways.

Laminate is designed to be cookie cutter. For example I needed a custom width laminate counter a few weeks ago for a bathroom, the vanity was an old built in place and the overhang of a standard post formed laminate counter would have been too much.

The cost for the 23 3/4 wide, 8 foot long laminate counter top to me was $300.00. The cost for the exact same laminate counter post formed was $195.00.

That's a 65% increase in price going from cookie cutter to custom. You can pretty much apply that to post form itself and go backwards to see why it is all about the money.


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

are you guys talking about those thin laminate sheats you slap down over contact cement. And than you hit it with a router to clean up where it hangs over. So i guess you can just slap that stuff over some osb. LOL.LOL You guys are so funny. Thats funny. :cheesygri or is particle board not osb. Let me guess thats cheaper than osb. That is so FUNNY. Fill that sink up with some water and heavy pans it will crash i'm assuming. I have heard of mdf that stuff can be used in place of raised paneling takes paint very well. If the client has that in the kitchen they definately don't have money to burn. Seriously i would just tell them to go down to local home center pick out some cheap new counter tops from home depot or somewhere.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Particle board is much more dense than OSB, - - if a laminate countertop is done right, - - the substrate will never experience water, - - a few months ago I replaced a 12' long (with a 4' 'L') L-shaped countertop in a local pizza shop that was about 25 years old, - - no damage in the sink area, soda machine area, or 'hot-slicing' area, - - just the very end of the counter had a slight 'chip-out' from workers brushing against the corner.

The owner wasn't even worried about that, - - he just wanted a new look. By the way, - - this countertop had been in use 14 hours a day, 7 days a week.

I gave them a 'radiused' corner this time.


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## Jack Innes (Jan 25, 2008)

*Gentlemen, Arborite is the northern generic term for the laminate used on counter tops, etc. If you were in many areas & asked about Formica you would be talking about the same thing. Both brand names but habe become the term of reference for the product. Any confusion on what a Kleenex is? -------------------- In any case the advice to start over sounds like the only way that will end in hapiness.*


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

Wow, Jack, you dragged up, I think, my second ever post on this forum!

Welcome, btw.:thumbsup:


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

I was taught to laminate 25 years ago, and never use anything but particle board. I have laminated over plywood, laminate over laminate and refaced kitchen cabinets with vertical grade formica. Never had a problem around the sinks I did, I have pulled out tops that were over 30 years old and saw no damage. I have seen damage with people using the smart clip system for backsplashes, myself included.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

reveivl said:


> Wow, Jack, you dragged up, I think, my second ever post on this forum!
> Welcome, btw.:thumbsup:


Wasn't gonna call any more attention to
what you were into 2½ years ago! :laughing:
Figured from the dates that was an early post!
Think a guy would take more of a beating now than then?

BTW...Same girl friend now too?


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

"Wasn't gonna call any more attention to
what you were into 2½ years ago!
Figured from the dates that was an early post!
Think a guy would take more of a beating now than then?

BTW...Same girl friend now too?"

:laughing::laughing:

The gf in question wasn't even extant at the time of that job! :thumbsup: Although I have been back in that house and the repair I did on that counter is still going strong.

I did the research at that time and found that I could get counter tops made by the local counter guys with my measurements and install it myself, OR, she could call Home Despair and the SAME counter guys would come out, measure, manufacture and install and warranty, for less cost to her than the material cost to me for the same thing from the same counter guys! I let that one go...


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

reveivl said:


> I did the research at that time and found that I could get counter tops made by the local counter guys with my measurements and install it myself, OR, she could call Home Despair and the SAME counter guys would come out, measure, manufacture and install and warranty, for less cost to her than the material cost to me for the same thing from the same counter guys! I let that one go...


Now that *is* depressing.


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## Navy (Feb 15, 2011)

Laminate can be bonded right over the exiating laminate, just plane or sand the bad stuff down till it is flat and put another sheet over the top, that is the cheapest way to go


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