# Be careful of what you think you know!



## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

In January I started my 9th year in trade. Yes I know this leaves me little more than a pup, still wet behind the ears, compared to a lot of you. Still I feel like I've earned a certain level of confidence in my competence. There is plenty in the plumbing world, I would imagine, that I have never seen but there are a wide range of things that I can do virtually in my sleep. I bet it is the same for many of you. This afternoon was a reminder to me that you ought not ever get too comfortable with what you are doing regardless of how many times you've done it before. 

In my neck of the woods, Delta seems to be the king of faucetry. I don't think there is a spec or tract home builder within a 50 mile radius who has used anything else for probably the last 20 years. When I worked for others, it was one of my jobs to build tub valves assembly line fashion. I've built at least 1000 Delta 1300/1400 series valves over the years. I came into plumbing after the 600 series became obsolete so I have not built any of those but I have repaired or replaced MANY of them. It only takes one time to learn that with the 600 series you can't just use brute force to remove the adjusting ring or you will twist the copper tubes and destroy the valve. The 1300/1400 series on the other hand was an improvement over the old design and although brute force is still not the best method, one does not have to treat them nearly as delicately since there is no fear of destroying the valve by simply removing the cartridge nut. Well this afternoon I'm preparing to remove the cartridge nut from circa 1997 (two years before my very green entry into the trade) Delta 1400 series tub/shower valve. First I checked to see it I could remove it by hand as I often times can. No luck. I put the wrench on it and it's pretty snug. Ordinarily I would simply increase the force until I reach the necessary level on a 1400 but that little voice was going off in my head telling me something was not quite right. I tried to ignore the little voice because I knew what I was doing since I'd done it so many times before but the little voice persisted and even got louder until I stopped. To shorten this up it turns out that this valve that I think I've seen at least 1000 times before is in fact a valve I have never seen before. Apparently, and I'm counting on some of you to shed some light on this, Delta produced some type of hybrid or crossover design. It looks just like the 1300/1400 in that it has the cartridge rather than the ball and cam, no adjusting ring, screw holes on the face plate at 2 and 8, BUT it also has those wretched little 1/4" copper tubes connecting the cartridge housing to the rest of the valve body. 

Now I know someone is going to say something like "you must be joking, I see these every day ..." but today was a first for me and my quiet Friday night watching Jurassic Park with the kids was almost destroyed by what I knew that I knew.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Delta produced that valve for a year and a half, when they made pressure balanced valves mandatory nationwide, Moen already had the Moentrol so they were not pressed to develop technology, but Delta was, as they had no economical valve to compete with the Moentrol. They produced the valve you refer to as a 1400 series after several tries, and Moen came out with the positemp to undercut them again, forcing Delta to reduce prices to compete.

Delta faucets suck to repair BTW, I'd rather get hit with a stick and forced to repair a Waterworks valve than work on a Delta.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

smellslike$tome said:


> *Be careful of what you think you know!*



OMG - did you see my new and improved sig. line?


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## AJX4 (Jan 17, 2008)

The monitor series followed the design of the 600 series with the 3 tube design for years. The R10000 valve body ends the story of possibly wiping the valve out. Easy money in my book from top to bottom when a customer wants me to replace that valve within that hole it sits in. Always an emergency situation which is fantastic. The 600 series valve is easy to rework those 3 copper tubes and put them back together, takes time and a dowel pin, solder the 3 tubes *soft copper* into the brass diverter block first, then dowel pin the valve body till it's close and heat that brass as hot as it gets so when it slides on you flux it and put the solder to it. Delta are the easiest faucet to repair and you can walk around with the seat cups and springs and fix an entire house of leaking faucets with no problem. They also make ceramic insert seats if you don't like to replace the rubber ones heeeelllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!


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## Jayson12 (Feb 6, 2008)

I personally think Delta is crap. Moem for pennies more is doubling the build quality of Delta.


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## AJX4 (Jan 17, 2008)

Jayson12 said:


> I personally think Delta is crap. Moem for pennies more is doubling the build quality of Delta.


 
Figuring you can't even spell it correctly, I'm not buying that logic. Moen is notorious for freezing up cartridges constantly, otherwise it wouldn't take a special tool. And those kitchen sink faucets with the dime sized backflow preventer whether its the new style with the plastic shroud with the rubber nipple sticking out of it like a new tire or the old style that screws in both are junk and moen's customer service will try to weaseal out of replacing their garbage telling my customers that they was abusing the faucet. They tried that with a customer of mine. That garbage design is commonly found the type with the pullout spray and moen always tries to blame the leak at the connection of the spout where the flex line connects. It's not and it always destroys the countertop where it anchors the support bracket because their too effing cheap to do it in brass like delta thinks of the installer and usually damages the cabinet base floor unless you're inspector cluousso watching for leaks. I wouldn't put in a moen faucet for my retarded one legged sister. sorry sis but it had to be stated for the record.:w00t:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

AJX4 said:


> Figuring you can't even spell it correctly, I'm not buying that logic. Moen is notorious for freezing up cartridges constantly, otherwise it wouldn't take a special tool. And those kitchen sink faucets with the dime sized backflow preventer whether its the new style with the plastic shroud with the rubber nipple sticking out of it like a new tire or the old style that screws in both are junk and moen's customer service will try to weaseal out of replacing their garbage telling my customers that they was abusing the faucet. They tried that with a customer of mine. That garbage design is commonly found the type with the pullout spray and moen always tries to blame the leak at the connection of the spout where the flex line connects. It's not and it always destroys the countertop where it anchors the support bracket because their too effing cheap to do it in brass like delta thinks of the installer and usually damages the cabinet base floor unless you're inspector cluousso watching for leaks. I wouldn't put in a moen faucet for my retarded one legged sister. sorry sis but it had to be stated for the record.:w00t:


Basically you feel the same way
about them that I do!:thumbup:
Except for the sister part...:laughing:


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

AJX4 said:


> Figuring you can't even spell it correctly, I'm not buying that logic. Moen is notorious for freezing up cartridges constantly, otherwise it wouldn't take a special tool. And those kitchen sink faucets with the dime sized backflow preventer whether its the new style with the plastic shroud with the rubber nipple sticking out of it like a new tire or the old style that screws in both are junk and moen's customer service will try to weaseal out of replacing their garbage telling my customers that they was abusing the faucet. They tried that with a customer of mine. That garbage design is commonly found the type with the pullout spray and moen always tries to blame the leak at the connection of the spout where the flex line connects. It's not and it always destroys the countertop where it anchors the support bracket because their too effing cheap to do it in brass like delta thinks of the installer and usually damages the cabinet base floor unless you're inspector cluousso watching for leaks. I wouldn't put in a moen faucet for my retarded one legged sister. sorry sis but it had to be stated for the record.:w00t:



Please give me your review of Danze, Hansgrohe, Grohe, Dornbracht, Waterworks, Rohl, and KWC.


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

My lady says I have a Grohe in my pocket.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

I don't seem to have a problem with Moen, it's used widely here in the PNW, I like the product, will install it and will recommend it.

Delta and Peerless can die as far as I care.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Delta and Peerless can die as far as I care.


No,no,no!
Then all of those people
in that big building on
the north side of town 
might come down here! :laughing:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> Please give me your review of Danze, Hansgrohe, Grohe, Dornbracht, Waterworks, Rohl, and KWC.


Why? Do you think there's one guy left on this site who hasn't already been beaten to death with the fact that you normally only work with high end product? :blink:


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

I really wasn't trying to set off a "my faucet is better than your faucet :tt2:" war. The point was if you cruise around in auto pilot all day because everything is so familiar, you could get into trouble. Nothing was at stake for me yesterday except my Friday night and a replacement valve but sometimes we work with systems and equipment that are truly dangerous to ourselves and others. Pay attention when something doesn't seem quite right. Don't keep charging ahead into something just because you've done it a gazillion times before. You might save yourself or someone else a lot of aggravation or a trip to the emergency room or even the morgue.


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

Celtic said:


> OMG - did you see my new and improved sig. line?


No, Celtic, I hadn't seen it until you pointed it out. It would be funny except for the fact that apparently the point of the post went right over everyone's head.


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> Why? Do you think there's one guy left on this site who hasn't already been beaten to death with the fact that you normally only work with high end product? :blink:


 That's funny.


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## CPlumb (Jan 17, 2008)

I'm still fighting myself on this whole "Delta vs Moen " thing . I LOVE the delta # 470 and series of kitchen faucets . Moen's K/S faucets have gone down the tubes . HOWEVER ,,,Gotta go with the moen everywhere else in the house . Ease of repair is SO much better . 

Smells ,,,,, I feel ya on the don't get cocky thing !! I have found ( 28 years ) that we all seem to get a "message" before something bad happens . Something just doesn't feel right or you (for NO reason) accidentally drop your wrench just before grabbing a nut that is delicate or can't seem to get a packing nut to stop leaking - then you follow the leak to something else .

Am I making any sense ??? Just seems like after beating my head against a wall for several decades ,,,, Learned to listen to other things then my own cocky voice . Somehow things always reveal themselves when I shut-up .

Didn't mean to go Zen ,,, sorry fellas .

CP


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## Jayson12 (Feb 6, 2008)

AJX4 said:


> Figuring you can't even spell it correctly, I'm not buying that logic. Moen is notorious for freezing up cartridges constantly, otherwise it wouldn't take a special tool. And those kitchen sink faucets with the dime sized backflow preventer whether its the new style with the plastic shroud with the rubber nipple sticking out of it like a new tire or the old style that screws in both are junk and moen's customer service will try to weaseal out of replacing their garbage telling my customers that they was abusing the faucet. They tried that with a customer of mine. That garbage design is commonly found the type with the pullout spray and moen always tries to blame the leak at the connection of the spout where the flex line connects. It's not and it always destroys the countertop where it anchors the support bracket because their too effing cheap to do it in brass like delta thinks of the installer and usually damages the cabinet base floor unless you're inspector cluousso watching for leaks. I wouldn't put in a moen faucet for my retarded one legged sister. sorry sis but it had to be stated for the record.:w00t:


So because I hit an "m" instead of the "n" on my keypad I am not a reputable plumber? I'm 22 years old and have run jobs from small tract home projects to 30 story high rises in downtown Chicago overseeing over 20 plumbers, I know my ****. Not to mention I also know every facet of the hydronics industry and have extensive knowledge in the pipefitting and welding industry. 

I have had nothing but great customer service from Moen, in fact I agree with the person who pointed out that their kitchen faucet product line is terrible, but the one I installed in my neighbor's house has been replaced over 6 times by Moen's lifetime warranty. I'm not saying Moen is an outstanding product because they are cheap, I am just saying if it's between Delta and Moen I'm choosing the ladder of the two.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Jayson12 said:


> ...I am just saying if it's between Delta and Moen I'm choosing the ladder of the two.


I've never really needed a ladder to get to my faucet.:laughing:


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

Jayson12 said:


> So because I hit an "m" instead of the "n" on my keypad I am not a reputable plumber? I'm 22 years old and have run jobs from small tract home projects to 30 story high rises in downtown Chicago overseeing over 20 plumbers, I know my ****. Not to mention I also know every facet of the hydronics industry and have extensive knowledge in the pipefitting and welding industry....


I know my ****, too, and you are full of it.

The only way a 22 year old would run a crew is if daddy owned a union shop. Otherwise, there ain't a chance in **** that a real plumber would work for a child. I'm guessing you are a 50 year old carpenter.

Hey kid, wanna see my Grohe?


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Putty Truck said:


> I know my ****, too, and you are full of it.
> 
> The only way a 22 year old would run a crew is if daddy owned a union shop. Otherwise, there ain't a chance in **** that a real plumber would work for a child. I'm guessing you are a 50 year old carpenter.
> 
> Hey kid, wanna see my Grohe?


What do you have against young 
carpenters?


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