# Do you have clients sign contract?



## Live_oak (Jul 22, 2013)

I joke that the amount of paperwork is only secondary to buying a house. They sign the multi page contract, *all* of the design drawings, and a spec sheet listing all of their choices.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

mike gunderson said:


> I guess every area and situation is different, I have had a successful business for 20 years and never had a contract. i have never been stiffed or cheated by any client. I have an agreement, [contract], by handshake, that my clients stay current on paying me every two weeks. I live in a rural area where everybody knows everybody. i try to do one job at a time and finish it. I am booked up for the next 2 years and don't plan on writing a contract in the future, There are still places like this in America where a handshake is a contract.


Mike.... i used to drill oil/gas..... and there were the old time drillers/producers that I would rather have their handshake than cash..... and there were the suited promotors that I did not trust a 50 page contract with a letter of credit backing it up.

I know what you mean.... but friend... don't leave your hometown


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

SDel Prete said:


> What amazing me isn't the handshake agreement. It's that someone is willing to wait 2 years for you to get their job done. Crazy. Here in NJ no1 likes a long wait lol


My old employer used to have 2 year backlogs. Now he says he cant get people to wait six months.


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

Most people want it done yesterday, they can't wait. Used to be people were willing to wait


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

SDel Prete said:


> What amazing me isn't the handshake agreement. It's that someone is willing to wait 2 years for you to get their job done. Crazy. Here in NJ no1 likes a long wait lol


A 2 year heads up would be sweet!!


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

griz said:


> Use the AIA contracts, well written, easy to understand and readily accepted. I know guys that have been using them for years.
> 
> http://www.aia.org/contractdocs/


Griz has good advice for you. AIA is the industry standard for commercial work.


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## SDel Prete (Jan 8, 2012)

Jaws said:


> My old employer used to have 2 year backlogs. Now he says he cant get people to wait six months.


Unless its a big addition or a new home no one around here wants to wait even 6 months and the only reason they wait that long for those two are due to engineers, architects ect. Once they have that done by not starting that second you've taken to long. No one has any patience lol


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

mike gunderson said:


> I guess every area and situation is different, I have had a successful business for 20 years and never had a contract. i have never been stiffed or cheated by any client. I have an agreement, [contract], by handshake, that my clients stay current on paying me every two weeks. I live in a rural area where everybody knows everybody. i try to do one job at a time and finish it. I am booked up for the next 2 years and don't plan on writing a contract in the future, There are still places like this in America where a handshake is a contract.


We don't run contracts either:no: I will do what I said I'm gonna do and you pay me when I'm done, it's not that difficult.:thumbsup:


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

donerightwyo said:


> We don't run contracts either:no: I will do what I said I'm gonna do and you pay me when I'm done, it's not that difficult.:thumbsup:


Disaster waiting to happen if there is any substantial amount of money involved. 

Handshakes are for chump change.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

Very seldom do we work for a complete stranger though. I know them or somebody I know, knows them.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

donerightwyo said:


> Very seldom do we work for a complete stranger though. I know them or somebody I know, knows them.


Doesn't matter if you know em. If they go bankrupt you are going down with 'em. The lawyers take over at that point and all that buddy handshake bs goes out the window.

Quoting tin once again- ask me how I know.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

mudpad said:


> Disaster waiting to happen if there is any substantial amount of money involved.
> 
> Handshakes are for chump change.


It's different here man. People still have honor and integrity, I guess. We've built million dollar homes with no prints and no contracts. 

I'm not going to argue the point because I don't think most people can comprehend that such a place still exists, but I have very little fear of not getting paid.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

mudpad said:


> Doesn't matter if you know em. If they go bankrupt you are going down with 'em. The lawyers take over at that point and all that buddy handshake bs goes out the window.
> 
> Quoting tin once again- ask me how I know.


They go bankrupt I'm probably not getting paid anyway.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

donerightwyo said:


> We don't run contracts either:no: I will do what I said I'm gonna do and you pay me when I'm done, it's not that difficult.:thumbsup:


Used to be that way. 

I will say we have never had to fall back on one, but it is a good just in case.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Jaws said:


> My old employer used to have 2 year backlogs. Now he says he cant get people to wait six months.


Sounds like a call I took the other day...

Caller: a contractor started my job and now I can't find him...

Dawg: ok, I can be there in a week or two to look at it and can start work in February. 

Caller: I can't wait that long

Dawg: when you dealt with the first guy, how long did you wait for him to start after meeting him?

Caller: one week

Dawg: that's the point I'm making...


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

donerightwyo said:


> It's different here man. People still have honor and integrity, I guess. We've built million dollar homes with no prints and no contracts.
> 
> I'm not going to argue the point because I don't think most people can comprehend that such a place still exists, but I have very little fear of not getting paid.


We did a 300k addition last year without one. Third project for them, they have been here as long as we have. Very rural and ethical :thumbsup:

Its the new folks that got us going on the contracts. 

I understand what you are saying though. An hour from here it is still that way. Too damn urban here, now. :sad:


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

donerightwyo said:


> but I have very little fear of not getting paid.


Only because it hasn't happened to you...yet. It will. When you least expect it. 

One day you will call a client or a subcontractor and you will get "this number is temporarily out of service" Not a good sign. 

Where is this Shangri La you live in?


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

I ain't saying everyone should stop using contracts.:no: I'm just saying, like Mike said, that contracts aren't always necessary. A lot of our builds are made up as we go. How you gonna put a contract on that?


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

donerightwyo said:


> I ain't saying everyone should stop using contracts.:no: I'm just saying, like Mike said, that contracts aren't always necessary. A lot of our builds are made up as we go. How you gonna put a contract on that?


Time and material with cost not to exceed. Standard AIA contract.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

donerightwyo said:


> We don't run contracts either:no: I will do what I said I'm gonna do and you pay me when I'm done, it's not that difficult.:thumbsup:


My Uncle and Aunt had a house built right on the bay in North Carolina.. Emerald Isle

they are from NY/NJ

the original builder died..his sone took over and said to them..
"I know yu have a bunch of verbal agreements with my father,. I am prepared to honor each one, just tell me what thy are"

My aunt had actually written them down.

she gave him the list and it was done.

MY uncle told me the original contract was 1 page long.

I do floors. my contracts can extend beyond 1 page easily depending on the scope.

My uncle told me this was the easiest and most pleasurable experience he ever had in a home build/remodel/construction proiject.

they brought coffee and pizza sdaily..tipped the men..
at the end of the project the men who worked on the project installed shelving and TV mounts in the garage no charge as a house warming.

my family all from Bronx NY and Norht NJ

these just a bunch of southern boys who said I do what I say by when I say,,that was the contract.

the house they built is worth about 950,000

very honorable..don't know how smart..but very honorable.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

mudpad said:


> Only because it hasn't happened to you...yet. It will. When you least expect it.
> 
> One day you will call a client or a subcontractor and you will get "this number is temporarily out of service" Not a good sign.
> 
> Where is this Shangri La you live in?


It doesn't even require anyone to be unethical. Something outside or uncontrollable happens - an accident, an illness, a death, the bank has problems. Through no fault of you or your customer, the dominos fall and the attorneys for the banks and insurance companies are figuring it out. They have different rules and approaches than you and that guy whose word is his bond.

Edit: A contract will protect you in those situations, some.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Signed proposals on the bigger jobs for me.........That being said, most of mine are referrals and they want it done.......never been stung yet.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

Keep in mind you will need to have a document that you can edit as you find clauses/issues that need to modify or add.


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## mike gunderson (May 23, 2010)

It amazes me too. Last fall I was just starting on a whole house restoration and some former clients wanted a big kitchen, tile job done. I told them couldn't do it for a year, They said they would get another contractor, then called me back in 20 minutes and asked what i was doing a year from then. i like rural America.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Check for requirements in your state. California has detailed requirements, with specific mandated language.


This.

First thing you need to do, is find out what your State requirements are. My contract is about 12 pages, just for a simple job, because of all the mandatory disclosures.

For what it's worth, without a signed contract, the customer does not legally owe you a penny. Thet can, if they wish, have you do a project, and then tell you to go pour piss out of a boot, and you have practically no legal recourse.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> This.
> 
> First thing you need to do, is find out what your State requirements are. My contract is about 12 pages, just for a simple job, because of all the mandatory disclosures.
> 
> *For what it's worth, without a signed contract, the customer does not legally owe you a penny.* Thet can, if they wish, have you do a project, and then tell you to go pour piss out of a boot, and you have practically no legal recourse.


Seven-delt.... Are you refering to some specific state laws.....

Oral contracts are normally valid (not advisable).... and MM lien laws normally do not require a signed written contract......

My experience is limited to just several states..... but in general I have/had never heard of an oral contract being invalid (with the exception of the Statute of Frauds that specifically invalidates an oral RE contract)


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Seven-delt.... Are you refering to some specific state laws.....
> 
> Oral contracts are normally valid (not advisable).... and MM lien laws normally do not require a signed written contract......
> 
> My experience is limited to just several states..... but in general I have/had never heard of an oral contract being invalid (with the exception of the Statute of Frauds that specifically invalidates an oral RE contract)


In California remodeling contracts must be written; it's a violation of the license law to have an oral contract, and folks do get nailed for it, though only as part of a larger set of problems AFAIK.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Seven-delt.... Are you refering to some specific state laws.....
> 
> Oral contracts are normally valid (not advisable).... and MM lien laws normally do not require a signed written contract......
> 
> My experience is limited to just several states..... but in general I have/had never heard of an oral contract being invalid (with the exception of the Statute of Frauds that specifically invalidates an oral RE contract)





CarpenterSFO said:


> In California remodeling contracts must be written; it's a violation of the license law to have an oral contract, and folks do get nailed for it, though only as part of a larger set of problems AFAIK.


Bob.... I agree with what you note.... it was several years ago that I researched it concerning my son's house.....

I'm really not sure of this.... but I do not think that failure to adhere to the licensing written contract law summarily invalidates the debt. (It may well place the contractor at a deficit in collecting the debt) ... and it sure could be a problem in regard to the licensing laws.....

And I think that MM claims in Cali do not require written contracts.... which effectively makes the debt collectable once adjudicated.

Anyways.... just my guess .... not my knowledge....

but I had just never heard of a blanket invalidity of an oral contract....

Best


Peter


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> .....
> I'm really not sure of this.... but I do not think that failure to adhere to the licensing written contract law summarily invalidates the debt. (It may well place the contractor at a deficit in collecting the debt) ...


Agreed- an illegal contract isn't necessarily completely void. It's sure not a good starting point, though.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

You guys are over analyzing this. Obviously it is better to have a written contract if problems arise. Whether it is required by law or not, it's a no brainer. If people want to go around with a sign on their back that says "kick me", then they should continue to do work without a written contract. More detail and "supplementary conditions" are better, but even "I will do X for ______$" is better than nothing. At least you got something to show the judge. :laughing:


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

But please remember, a contract is only as good as the signatures on it.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

A contract is only good if all parties who signed it are willing and honorable enough to abide by it's terms.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

I guess you're better at legalese.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Contracts are a reference tool.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Contracts are a reference tool.


I have never had to fall back on the contract, but scope, yes. This is what I bid.


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## William James (Mar 5, 2010)

Stevarino said:


> I'm curious as I'm looking into writing up an official contract to have each of my clients sign before I start a job. Up to now I just do verbal and written estimates and an invoice at the end of the job. What are your thoughts on a contract and what should it contain?


Might of been asked, but what state do you live in?
Actually, what country?
Put it in your bio so others can pass on better info.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Seven-delt.... Are you refering to some specific state laws.....
> 
> Oral contracts are normally valid (not advisable).... and MM lien laws normally do not require a signed written contract......
> 
> My experience is limited to just several states..... but in general I have/had never heard of an oral contract being invalid (with the exception of the Statute of Frauds that specifically invalidates an oral RE contract)


Yes, forgot to say "In California." I'm sure it is different state by state.

What I was told, by my attorney, is, "In California, if you engage in Home Improvement work, without a valid Home Improvement Contract, if it goes to court, it can be difficult to impossible to collect, due to the fact that the Contract can be considered invalid, because it was in violation of State Home Improvement Contract law."

Whether that will be the outcome in every case, I have no idea. Hope I never find out.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> Yes, forgot to say "In California." I'm sure it is different state by state.
> 
> What I was told, by my attorney, is, "In California, if you engage in Home Improvement work, without a valid Home Improvement Contract, if it goes to court, it can be difficult to impossible to collect, due to the fact that the Contract can be considered invalid, because it was in violation of State Home Improvement Contract law."
> 
> Whether that will be the outcome in every case, I have no idea. Hope I never find out.


+1 agree


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

mudpad said:


> *You guys are over analyzing this. Obviously it is better to have a written contract if problems arise.* Whether it is required by law or not, it's a no brainer. If people want to go around with a sign on their back that says "kick me", then they should continue to do work without a written contract. More detail and "supplementary conditions" are better, but even "I will do X for ______$" is better than nothing. At least you got something to show the judge. :laughing:


 

Mudpack.... It is my opinion that we are not over analyzing this.... we are meerly discussing an issue that was peviously posted and that was mistakingly not fully defined, and subsequently redefined and corrected.

And I might add, that in normal circumstances a contract is advisable... but remember that every written (or oral) contract contains performance on both parties part. YES.... there are times that you, as contractor or contractee, might be better off without a contract.

You may not understand that concept.

Best

Peter


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

I positively like having a contract. In addition to containing all the project specific stuff - schedules of work, payments, and allowances, and all the change orders - all the generic parts provide structure for how the relationship functions. My experience is that a good contract answers many homeowner questions about who owns what, why something is priced a certain way, and so on.

Once you get in the habit a detailed contract isn't a nuisance at all, and I've never had a customer complain about it. I've had a few prospective customers complain about it, but they didn't become customers.


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