# Circuit Tracer



## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Jughead said:


> Sorry missed your reply
> 
> From my study of electricity it's the amps that kill you, not the volts?
> 
> 50 amps is some serious current and glad you're still around to talk about it. My worst and only zapping was with 20 amps one time.


115v household current can kill but yes it take amps too. A combination of both represents power or wattage. Your unsound ground theory doesn't make sense. Follow safety procedures and the tester will be fine. Break them and it takes the speed of light to see how that pans out. That's why what you're doing is potentially dangerous, fudge here, fudge there and poof, you're gone.

Electrocuted means killed by electricity. If you live, you were shocked by electricity. It isn't something to play around with.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

You didn't get zapped by 20 amps. Just because the breaker on the circuit is a 20 amp, doesn't mean that's what went through your body. 30 milliamps is enough to cause ventricular fibrillation. 20 amps is enough to blow pieces of your body off.

If you can't trust the ground in a panel to be grounded, you certainly can't trust an old radiator in a room. 

You seem to know less than nothing about electricity, and don't have the humility to learn. And from your own testimony, you run less than professional jobsites.

Boys and girls and dear future readers, please disregard the "advise" given by Jughead. It sucks, and might get you killed.



Delta


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## Jughead (May 31, 2017)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> You didn't get zapped by 20 amps. Just because the breaker on the circuit is a 20 amp, doesn't mean that's what went through your body. 30 milliamps is enough to cause ventricular fibrillation. 20 amps is enough to blow pieces of your body off.
> 
> If you can't trust the ground in a panel to be grounded, you certainly can't trust an old radiator in a room.
> 
> ...


Nobody said anything about the ground in a panel my dearest pinhead, although that should also be checked on a known ground like a radiator or copper pipe.
It's all about having a known ground first. I've never had a connected copper or hydronic system that didn't also serve as a ground.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)




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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Let's lighten up a bit on the name-calling, okay kids?



Jughead said:


> It's all about having a known ground first. I've never had a connected copper or hydronic system that didn't also serve as a ground.


There's a first time for everything. In these days of sharkbites and pex, pipes with water in them aren't necessarily guaranteed to be grounded (except poorly, via the water).

You appear to have a fairly decent grounding in practical "git 'er done" techniques, but we like to espouse best practices here. :thumbsup:


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## Jughead (May 31, 2017)

Tinstaafl said:


> Let's lighten up a bit on the name-calling, okay kids?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the mediation Tin and I apologize for delving into the mysteries of electricity so blatantly. I mean that sincerely and beer played a part which is no excuse.

I also thought about the pex and sharkbite angle last night. For three months now I'm at an old and huge 110 unit apt house that needs to be rewired eventually (read soon).
It's all 2-wire without a ground, and when units come empty many don't have GFCI's. So that's the extent of my elec work, with new cabs, fixtures, walls, floors, etc the main gist of the rehabs. The 1" thick plaster walls on wire suck.
Also ceiling lights and switches are switched out

Sorry to come off as a know-it-all. And instead of giving solutions I could be asking advice as complex as it is.


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## Jughead (May 31, 2017)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> Boys and girls and dear future readers, please disregard the "advise" given by Jughead. It sucks, and might get you killed.
> 
> Delta


You need to explain in detail just how extreme testing could kill you.


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## Jughead (May 31, 2017)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> You didn't get zapped by 20 amps. Just because the breaker on the circuit is a 20 amp, doesn't mean that's what went through your body. 30 milliamps is enough to cause ventricular fibrillation. 20 amps is enough to blow pieces of your body off.
> Delta


Ok I know enough that we're being bull****ted by you.
What you're saying is we can't trust labelled current, that my 15 amp Milwaukee circular saw doesn't pull 15 amps?
Is there some sort of secret code aside from that labelled?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Jughead said:


> Ok I know enough that we're being bull****ted by you.


Actually, no. He's absolutely correct.

A 20A breaker simply means that the circuit is capable of supplying *up to* 20A. In order for you to have that much current flow through your body, the voltage would have to be much higher than 120 in order to push 20A through the relatively high resistance presented by your body.

The folks you're arguing with, myself included, have years of formal training in electrical theory and decades of experience in actually working with it. 



> And instead of giving solutions I could be asking advice as complex as it is.


Agreed. :thumbsup:


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## Jughead (May 31, 2017)

Tinstaafl said:


> A 20A breaker simply means that the circuit is capable of supplying *up to* 20A. In order for you to have that much current flow through your body, the voltage would have to be much higher than 120 in order to push 20A through the relatively high resistance presented by your body.
> 
> The folks you're arguing with, myself included, have years of formal training in electrical theory and decades of experience in actually working with it.


Maybe you guys need to edit the Wikipedia page on Electric (human) shock. Problem these days is all information is available at your fingertips on the WWW.

Regards resistance of the human body - that varies widely, keyed on human skin, "more precisely the stratum corneum":

"The voltage necessary for electrocution depends on the current through the body and the duration of the current. Ohm's law states that the current drawn depends on the resistance of the body. The resistance of human skin varies from person to person and fluctuates between different times of day. The NIOSH states "Under dry conditions, the resistance offered by the human body may be as high as 100,000 Ohms. Wet or broken skin may drop the body's resistance to 1,000 Ohms," adding that "high-voltage electrical energy quickly breaks down human skin, reducing the human body's resistance to 500 Ohms."[16]
From Wikipedia

If the hot wire penetrates through the skin there's almost no resistance.

And I was right about amps, otherwise known as current, that of course increases with higher voltage under Ohm's Law.
There's no mention of body parts being blown off, but rather internal and external burns, neuropathy (nerve damage), and fibrillation.

It's a good read for anyone doing electrical work.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Jughead said:


> Problem these days is all information is available at your fingertips on the WWW.


Yep. Bad information as well as good.

Not going to keep going around with you on this; I tired of that sort of game a couple-three decades ago. We've gotten way off the topic of the OP.

Believe what you want, but if/when you give bad advice here, you'll get called on it.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Actually, no. He's absolutely correct.
> 
> A 20A breaker simply means that the circuit is capable of supplying *up to* 20A. ...........


Actually, 20a breakers can easily supply far more than 20 amps. They don't automatically trip at 20.000000000000000000000000000000000000001 amps.

First, some loads have heavy current draws, such as a motor starting up. A typical 20a breaker can readily let 40-60 amps through without tripping for the first 1-20 cycles.

Second, 20a breakers can run for hours, if not days, at 21, 22 or 24 amps and never trip.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Actually, 20a breakers can easily supply far more than 20 amps. They don't automatically trip at 20.000000000000000000000000000000000000001 amps.
> 
> First, some loads have heavy current draws, such as a motor starting up. A typical 20a breaker can readily let 40-60 amps through without tripping for the first 1-20 cycles.
> 
> Second, 20a breakers can run for hours, if not days, at 21, 22 or 24 amps and never trip.


like Ron says 220 221.....

what the heck could an amp or 2 or 3 matter when starting at 20...:laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I've tripped on a lot less than that. 



_________


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> I've tripped on a lot less than that.
> 
> 
> 
> _________



stumbling on your feet....right????...:whistling:no:


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Jughead said:


> Maybe you guys need to edit the Wikipedia page on Electric (human) shock. Problem these days is all information is available at your fingertips on the WWW.
> 
> Regards resistance of the human body - that varies widely, keyed on human skin, "more precisely the stratum corneum":
> 
> ...


wikipedia is a joke. The fact that you acknowledge it can be edited is a clue. 

Amps isn't current, current is a measurement of amperage. With a given amount of energy amperage goes down as voltage is increased, not up. And visa versa.

If you are sweaty, grounded, not grounded, etc. all those things matter in the effects of a shock. But rather than determining your possibilities for survival each time it makes more sense to simply avoid getting zapped in the first place and develop safe handling techniques that become a matter of habit. Like handling firearms. If you always approach them with safe techniques you won't put a round in your foot. Fudge here and there and eventually something happens. But it's your life, as long as you aren't endangering others.


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## Jughead (May 31, 2017)

Tinstaafl said:


> Believe what you want, but if/when you give bad advice here, you'll get called on it.


And as you see so will you, except I'm not calling myself an electrician.


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## Jughead (May 31, 2017)

RangoWA said:


> wikipedia is a joke. The fact that you acknowledge it can be edited is a clue.
> 
> Amps isn't current, current is a measurement of amperage. With a given amount of energy amperage goes down as voltage is increased, not up. And visa versa.


Your response is reasonable, in the sense you're not calling everyone trolls.
I would advise anyone can register with Wikipedia as I have and edit content on any subject. Sometimes it's opposed, sometimes it stands.

On amperage I stand convinced that it's the same as current.

Also Ohm's law implies an increase in voltage brings with it an increase of amperage - is 2000 volts at 15 amps possible?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Jughead said:


> And as you see so will you, except I'm not calling myself an electrician.


Nor am I. But with three decades as an electronics tech before I got into this game, I have a modicum of acquaintance with which way electrons spin. I feel pretty confident that my modicum's bigger'n yours. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Jughead said:


> ...........On amperage I stand convinced that it's the same as current..........


Current is the actual, physical _electron flow_. Amperage is the _unit of measurement_ for it.


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