# Kitchen Cabinet and Duct Issue



## Erinkgarvey (Oct 25, 2012)

So any advice would be good but here's the schpeel:
We're remodeling a kitchen in Arlington - older house that has plaster walls. The returns are ran through these plaster walls and one in the dining area is halfway covered by an old corner cabinet. We're removing this dividing wall and opening up the kitchen and will put cabinets up against this return wall....see my drawings. I know for a fact that the return cannot be covered and we cannot re-route the return (not within budget) so does anyone have any ideas other than leaving a small gap between the return and side of cabinets? Check out the floor plan. Where the red box is, is where the return is currently halfway covered by a corner cabinet,


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)




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## Erinkgarvey (Oct 25, 2012)

i get that but the return is in the wall and that would only work for a floor return.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

The return should be the entire stud bay space. Close up where it is and open up the wall at the toe space.

Returns in kitchens are a really, really, really bad idea. Can you cover it on the kitchen side and open it on the opposite side of the wall? In the base or up high. 

Did I mention it's not a good idea to have a return in a kitchen? Not as bad as a bathroom, but close.

Tom


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

What are the dimensions of the return?


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

tjbnwi said:


> Did I mention it's not a good idea to have a return in a kitchen?


A really bad idea and, if the range is gas, a no-no.

And, a return must be properly sized.

And, is that an outside wall? If so, better move it. 


Codes really don't care what is or is not in the budget.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Not to pick nits,

...but is this ACTUALLY a "return" or a supply?

If it is a "return", get out your tinning tools and put it on the other side of the "new" wall.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Not there, but how much can it cost to put in another return? I understand the term "not in the budget". But, if someone has money to do a whole kitchen remodel...?


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## Erinkgarvey (Oct 25, 2012)

It is a return and it's maybe 24" x 24"...why is it so bad? Technically it's in the dining room right now and the gas range is in the kitchen. We'll be knocking out that dividing wall and making an open floor plan with cabinets and a sink on that back wall. Is it possible to open up the wall and size it down?? I haven't talked to the HVAC contractor yet but I just want to be ready for when we do.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Put a counter top height wall in behind the cabinets (between the kitchen cabinets and the dining room). Close up the return on the kitchen side behind the cabinets and just open the other side of the wall in the dining room for the R/A grille. Easy-Peazy.

*EDIT: *After looking at your drawing a little closer, it looks as though that return is on an outside wall? In which case, you will need to move it. I first thought the BACK side of your cabinets were going to cover that return, but realize now, that the current dining room is going to be part of the kitchen, so the above idea won't work.

You're going to need to move that return. Like others have said, a return in the kitchen is a not a good idea.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

What is on the opposite side of the return wall?

You don't put returns in kitchens and baths/powder rooms. Once you remove the wall by the back door, that return is now in the kitchen area, there is no longer a dinning room. 

Why, you want the vent fan being the only device drawing air out of the kitchen. Do I really need to explain the none in the bathroom reason?

Tom


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

fftopic: I can't help but wonder about the kitchen design, as long as we have pictures. Is the range off to the right, separated from the sink area by the back door? Seems like a design mistake to me. Did the homeowner design the space?


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Just move it to the left, outside the cabinet. May not look pretty but probably the least expensive route?


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

As far as I know according to IRC SECTION M1602
RETURN AIR: 

M1602.2 Prohibited sources. Outdoor and return air for a
forced-air heating or cooling system shall not be taken from the
following locations 

Section 4. A closet, bathroom, toilet room,* kitchen*, garage,
mechanical room, boiler room, furnace room, unconditioned
attic or other dwelling unit.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

greg24k said:


> As far as I know according to IRC SECTION M1602
> RETURN AIR:
> 
> M1602.2 Prohibited sources. Outdoor and return air for a
> ...


Ditto California Mechanical Code 311.3(3). Yes, I realize the poster isn't in Ca.


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## Erinkgarvey (Oct 25, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> fftopic: I can't help but wonder about the kitchen design, as long as we have pictures. Is the range off to the right, separated from the sink area by the back door? Seems like a design mistake to me. Did the homeowner design the space?


Nope you got it right. The range is off to the right and on the other side of the room. The return has been there for a very long time so we're working with what we got in a pull and replace remodel. Not a design Flaw but that was the best design we came up with


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## Erinkgarvey (Oct 25, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Ditto California Mechanical Code 311.3(3). Yes, I realize the poster isn't in Ca.


Where did you find that on the internet? We're located in Northern Virginia.


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## Erinkgarvey (Oct 25, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> What is on the opposite side of the return wall?
> 
> You don't put returns in kitchens and baths/powder rooms. Once you remove the wall by the back door, that return is now in the kitchen area, there is no longer a dinning room.
> 
> ...


It is on an exterior wall. It comes up from the basement and the upstairs return is directly above it. Looking at the basement - whoever installed it to begin with, chiseled a bit out of the foundation to make it fit so it's challenging. I understand we shouldn't have on in the kitchen but by code do we absolutely have to move it to another location since that room was a designated dining room??


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Erinkgarvey said:


> Where did you find that on the internet? We're located in Northern Virginia.


Virginia Mechanical Code 918.6.5: - return for forced air furnace can't be in the kitchen.

http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/virginia/Mechanical/Mech_Frameset.html, chapter 9


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Yes you have to move it. Here is the Virginia Building Code, M1602.2(4) clearly states you cannot have a return in a kitchen.

http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/virginia/Residential/Res-Frameset.html

You put the sink and dishwasher there, you made it part of the kitchen. There is no longer a dinning room in that house. 

Just like a basement, unfinished it is utility space. Finish it and it becomes occupiable space, whole set of new rules apply. 

Tom


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