# Re - Roofing X%!^&@



## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

Long story short.....my brother has one of these large houses with high slope roofing. It's going to be replaced with a first class job. He's talked to a couple of roofing contractors who are doing similar work in the neighborhood and who have been in business for several years. Really got some conflicting input so I said I would try to get it straightened out here. It'll be a complete tear off going back with an architectural shingle. 

Tear - Off 
One contractor says he tears off the shingles but leaves the paper and then applies the new shingles over it. This is insane too me...Anybody ever heard of this ? 

Hand Nail - Gun Nail 
One contractor says he only hand nails. Others say they use the gun. What's the difference ? Any comments on staples ? Anybody still stapling ? 

Peel 'N Stick 
This high slope roof has a lot of valleys. There is existing p 'n s. Can you leave it or it should come up up and apply new. Is it difficult to pull up or any problem going over it or its remnants ? I would think any nail heads need to be removed under the new appl. I told my brother to anticipate an answer to leave it, have the crew inspect it, so on. Please advise the correct approach. 

Thanks

Steve


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

It's best to tear off the felt to inspect the decking. Done a lot of tear offs though were we had to tear off two or more layers of felt. Did one last year that had two layers of 30 pound on it. Speaking of felt make sure they use a good fiberglass felt or a synthetic.

Hand nails and gun nails is up to the roofer. There are still some that staple. I used to staple and the hundreds of roofs stapled never had blow offs with winds within the warranty specs. As a matter of fact did some roofs with both and twice with high wind blow offs the nailed shingles blew off. One roof had both nails and staples on the back the nailed shingles let loose.

Make sure they pull all the fasteners prior to installing new underlayment.


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

Usually hard to leave the felt in a tearoff anyways. Always best to start with a clean, visible deck. Recommend pulling and not pounding nails but it doesn't hurt to pound them as long as they are solid. Any bent nail should be pulled and not pounded. 

A good 30# felt and ice/water in valleys and eaves. No need for anything more in underlayment. They may actually have an issue with getting the existing ice/water removed so if you trust them, I'd leave that to their discretion. 

Dougger, you must be one of the few conscientious staplers around if your roofs stay on. I always tell HO's around here "if they mention stapling the shingles, send them away". Nailed only, hand nailing is more accurate but there is nothing wrong with a nail gun, either way the quality isn't in the method, it's in the person holding the gun or hatchet. Steep slope I recommend extra nails. Do they even warranty stapled roofs still? I didn't think they did.


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## LA_nailer (May 10, 2008)

Renegade said:


> Do they even warranty stapled roofs still? I didn't think they did.


TAMKO does. But i don't know anyone who still uses staples though...


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Renegade said:


> Usually hard to leave the felt in a tearoff anyways. Always best to start with a clean, visible deck. Recommend pulling and not pounding nails but it doesn't hurt to pound them as long as they are solid. Any bent nail should be pulled and not pounded.
> 
> A good 30# felt and ice/water in valleys and eaves. No need for anything more in underlayment. They may actually have an issue with getting the existing ice/water removed so if you trust them, I'd leave that to their discretion.
> 
> Dougger, you must be one of the few conscientious staplers around if your roofs stay on. I always tell HO's around here "if they mention stapling the shingles, send them away". Nailed only, hand nailing is more accurate but there is nothing wrong with a nail gun, either way the quality isn't in the method, it's in the person holding the gun or hatchet. Steep slope I recommend extra nails. Do they even warranty stapled roofs still? I didn't think they did.


I haven't stapled a shingle down in 6-7 years. My first 5 years did staple every roof. When they were installed with staples they were always done right. 

A staple installed in the right spot is better than a nail either shot too high or too deep.

Don't touch the 30 pound organic felt, 15 pound fiberglass only.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

*Re-roof / Tear Off:*
*1) Remove existing roofing materials.*
*2) Replace / repair decking if needed.*
*3) Install new underlayment (ice & water shield and felt paper).*
*4) Replace eave, valley, wall, chimney and pipe flashings.*
*5) Replace ventilation units (louver or ridge vents)*
*6) Make sure proper ventilation is installed.*
*7) Install new roof system.*
*8) Clean-up of all debree from old and new materials and haul them away.*


Proper placement of fasteners is what determines the quality, not what type you use. All tho staples have been outlawed in many areas i work/have worked in, they are still exceptable in others.

If you plan on using some thing like tile, slate or metal roof system, than what type of felt you use is important, for shingles, 30# organic or fiberglas either or is all you need, either one will last the life span of an average shingle roof.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Certainteed allows staples for the low end shingles but for the Super Shangles you have to use nails or the warranty is void.

Had a few engineers recently that thought staples would hold better than nails. Had to tell them we don't staple anymore, sorry!


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Used to staple also. Had 90+ mph winds and never lost a 3-tab. Staples aren't legal here anymore, but yes, Certainteed allows them.

We always tear off the shingles separate from the tar paper. Then we roll it up or leave it down. How can it hurt??? Any good roofer can notice a bad spot in the sheathing without even going on the roof(not all situations, but most). In certain cities we have to pull it up, and the sheathing is inspected for nailing. On a new house they don't require this, just on a tear off. Kind of rediculous, but there are a lot of fly-by-nighters out there making it tough for us.

I agree with Doug on the underlayment. Yes we've all used the cheap 15 lb., but the new Select or GAF shingle mate is hard to beat. That stuff lays flat and is tough! Much, much better, but I rarely depend on underlayments for the waterproofing. We don't even use tar or caulking. It's just common sense with building, engineering, and shingling, and you won't have any worries.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

I like to use caulk under the ring on the heating stack.


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## aegisroofing (Nov 3, 2009)

Slyfox said:


> *Re-roof / Tear Off:*
> *1) Remove existing roofing materials.*
> *2) Replace / repair decking if needed.*
> *3) Install new underlayment (ice & water shield and felt paper).*
> ...


Exactly and staples should be outlawed everywhere.


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## smeagol (May 13, 2008)

douger how slippery is fiberglass felt? couger paws work on it? thanks


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

We Fix Houses said:


> Long story short.....my brother has one of these large houses with high slope roofing. It's going to be replaced with a first class job. He's talked to a couple of roofing contractors who are doing similar work in the neighborhood and who have been in business for several years. Really got some conflicting input so I said I would try to get it straightened out here. It'll be a complete tear off going back with an architectural shingle.
> 
> Tear - Off
> One contractor says he tears off the shingles but leaves the paper and then applies the new shingles over it. This is insane too me...Anybody ever heard of this ?
> ...


DOn't reuse the felt paper. I use 30# and it's something like $15 a roll off the top of my head. A roll of 30# is 2 squares, 15# is 4 squares. What are you really saving? IMO the guy reusing the felt is a hack. There I said it. It's been discussed here before.

I have no problem with gun nailing. Yes it's a little easier to make a mistake but if you have workers who care about quality the roof will be just fine. I never picked up a roofing gun until I started my business 6 years ago. Before that it was all hand nailing. Staples are not allowed by code here, but I still see it, mostly by out of state crews, and they still sell the staples so someone's using them.

By PNS I am assuming you mean peel and stick, and assuming by that you mean ice shield... If the ice shield can't be removed, and sometimes it can't without removing the wood, if it is smooth and even it can be left in place. BUT if you have 3' of ice shield, you're goign to have to go back with wider so that at the edges you are adhering to the wood. However if the whingles are stuck to the ice shield, which happens often with Grace on a poorly ventilated roof then the wood will need to be replaced. Sure you can go over, but I do not think you will like the results.


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## XanadooLTD (Oct 6, 2007)

I have never heard anyone not take the old felt off. The reason that they hand nail is that the workers rarely set the depth right and they shoot right through the shingles. Hand nailin lets you get it right. I know a lot of guys too that can hand nail faster than guns. Its pretty sweet to see.


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

XanadooLTD said:


> I have never heard anyone not take the old felt off. The reason that they hand nail is that the workers rarely set the depth right and they shoot right through the shingles. Hand nailin lets you get it right. * I know a lot of guys too that can hand nail faster than guns*. Its pretty sweet to see.


I'd have to see that to believe it.

(You all know this is an old thread, yes?)


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Perhaps a guy can hand nail faster than a guy with a gun for a few minutes or even an hour but day after day? I doubt it and I will challenge anyone who says so. Yes, the nails will all be on the line and driven flush. Physically it is impossible.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

> Tear - Off
> One contractor says he tears off the shingles but leaves the paper and then applies the new shingles over it. This is insane too me...Anybody ever heard of this ?


All the paper must come off. 





> Hand Nail - Gun Nail
> One contractor says he only hand nails. Others say they use the gun. What's the difference ? Any comments on staples ? Anybody still stapling ?


Hand Nail: 
The best way.

Gunning It: 
The faster way (just will need to have roofers with integrity doing the work who'll nail down any proud nails and make sure they nail twice where a nail might have been overdriven). 




> Peel 'N Stick
> This high slope roof has a lot of valleys. There is existing p 'n s. Can you leave it or it should come up up and apply new. Is it difficult to pull up or any problem going over it or its remnants ? I would think any nail heads need to be removed under the new appl. I told my brother to anticipate an answer to leave it, have the crew inspect it, so on. Please advise the correct approach.


When I install a new roof, everything comes up (even the metal). 

The only metal I leave would be dormer/shed flashings and chimney flashings and that's only IF they were not damaged during the removal of the existing shingles. 

Sometimes, you'll have a nice chimney flashing job that's tight enough to last for a hundred years...no sense in undoing that quality of work.

My 2 pennies. 

PS...anybody that talks about leaving anything behind besides chimney flashings or step flashings that are in perfect condition and that will out last the life of the roof (copper) aren't worth considering. 

They probably aren't Roofers, but Roofers/Siders/Gutterers/Window/Door/Decking/Dog Walking/Babysitting/Car Washing guys.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Grumpy said:


> DOn't reuse the felt paper. I use 30# and it's something like $15 a roll off the top of my head. A roll of 30# is 2 squares, 15# is 4 squares. What are you really saving? IMO the guy reusing the felt is a hack. There I said it. It's been discussed here before.
> 
> I have no problem with gun nailing. Yes it's a little easier to make a mistake but if you have workers who care about quality the roof will be just fine. I never picked up a roofing gun until I started my business 6 years ago. Before that it was all hand nailing. Staples are not allowed by code here, but I still see it, mostly by out of state crews, and they still sell the staples so someone's using them.
> 
> By PNS I am assuming you mean peel and stick, and assuming by that you mean ice shield... If the ice shield can't be removed, and sometimes it can't without removing the wood, if it is smooth and even it can be left in place. BUT if you have 3' of ice shield, you're goign to have to go back with wider so that at the edges you are adhering to the wood. However if the whingles are stuck to the ice shield, which happens often with Grace on a poorly ventilated roof then the wood will need to be replaced. Sure you can go over, but I do not think you will like the results.


BINGO!

I only use 30# felt. 

Costs twice as much per job, but it doesn't break when you handle it, 
it's easier to cut (not physically easier, but it doesn't rip apart when cutting it), 
it'll take a roofing nail capless & T-50 staples (for drying in) 
to hold it down while you cap it off plus it's beefier, 
it'll hold up to rain/wind/sun far better than 15# felt would "if" it had to be exposed 
(which I personally don't like to do, but just in case...) 
and it'll just be a better material to go over with the roof.

And, it's far sturdier to walk on.

Personally, we I prefer to shingle in what I tear-off so that I don't even have to worry about overnight exposure, rain, storms or having to go crazy fastening it because it just has to be in place just long enough for my shingles to cover it.

It seems that Roofers use 30# and General Contractors use 15#. 

It's all about the pennies when their not the ones installing the stuff themselves.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Perhaps a guy can hand nail faster than a guy with a gun for a few minutes or even an hour but day after day? I doubt it and I will challenge anyone who says so. Yes, the nails will all be on the line and driven flush. Physically it is impossible.


I've never seen a guy hand nail faster than a gunner. 

Period. 

Even a lowly laborer can fly with a gun. 

It (like shingling with a hatchet) takes time, but once up to speed, a good shingler with a gun can literally nail off a shingle in one full second. 

Even the fastest hand nailer couldn't keep that up for more than a few minutes. 


Fast hand nailing done wrong: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnBpTVRl4DM&feature=related

Gun nailing done wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVNnUynR8Bs&feature=related


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

2ndGen said:


> BINGO!
> 
> I only use 30# felt.
> 
> Costs twice as much per job, but it doesn't break when you handle it.



Have you tried the heavy 15#? My yard calls it 'astm 15'. Tamko. It's thick and heavy like 30#...

Costs a little more than standard 15 or 30, but it's 4 sq/ roll (it's a bigger roll), so it works out cheaper than 30 (2 sq/roll).. It's all I'll use anymore..


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## bmaurice (Sep 15, 2009)

2ndGen said:


> I've never seen a guy hand nail faster than a gunner.
> 
> Period.
> 
> ...


 

Hahaha thoughs videos made me laugh. 

I have never used a hatchet, what do you get out of it? nor do i use the key gauge on the bottom of the gun. i just rely on my eyes to keep me straight and occasionly ill snap a line to get perfect.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Great Videos. 

That Tamko 15 lb felt is good stuff.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

TimelessQuality said:


> Have you tried the heavy 15#? My yard calls it 'astm 15'. Tamko. It's thick and heavy like 30#...
> 
> Costs a little more than standard 15 or 30, but it's 4 sq/ roll (it's a bigger roll), so it works out cheaper than 30 (2 sq/roll).. It's all I'll use anymore..


Never heard of a "heavy 15#" felt paper.

If it was heavier than 15#, then wouldn't it "not" be 15# anymore?

If it's as strong as 30# and provides all of the same benefits (if not, more), 
then it would definitely make sense.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

bmaurice said:


> Hahaha thoughs videos made me laugh.
> 
> I have never used a hatchet, what do you get out of it? nor do i use the key gauge on the bottom of the gun. i just rely on my eyes to keep me straight and occasionly ill snap a line to get perfect.


*Hatchet VS Hammer:*
Hatchet profile is at a slight slant which allows it to land on the pitched surface of a roof at a better angle than a hammer which is meant to strike at 90 degrees (more of the strike blow is concentrated squarely on the nail head driving it in far easier and more accurately).

Even though I mostly gun, I will always do a few shingles (if not a square or two) with my hatchet "jussst" to keep that feel familiar to me. I like it. It's meditative. 

Hatchet has shorter handle for close quarter swinging and is more head heavy. 

I've found several roofing specific uses for the hatchet that makes it better suited than a hammer (cutting surface works great to pry apart shingles in repair work and to work up flashing). 



*Gauge on the gun... *
I've just started to use it after years and years of using guns. 
Now, using the gauge helps eliminate one a few more seconds of thinking with every shingle (and at the end of the day, those seconds add up). 

Plus, it's idiot proof. I don't have to "see" it perfectly. I just make sure the gauge is butted up to the shingle below the one I'm installing and let the other one land on it and that's it...a perfectly placed shingle without any thought. It took me some getting used to (adding another step to my technique), but the step pays off.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

bmaurice said:


> Hahaha thoughs videos made me laugh.
> 
> I have never used a hatchet, what do you get out of it? nor do i use the key gauge on the bottom of the gun. i just rely on my eyes to keep me straight and occasionly ill snap a line to get perfect.


I'll personally use the gauge on my gun, although I do not require it of my guys if they can keep it straight by eye. Occassionally we'll also snap a line ot make sure we're not losing it. I like to chalk a line half way up the rafter slope to make sure it's not running off, we then have half the slope to fix it if it is. Fixing it in 20 runs can't be detected by eye. Fixing it in 3 runs will be highly visible.


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## NormW (Jun 4, 2009)

I confess to being naive on roofing...

Is it ok to stagger just two rows of shingles, and work up the roof, like they where showing in bwalley's video?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

NormW said:


> I confess to being naive on roofing...
> 
> Is it ok to stagger just two rows of shingles, and work up the roof, like they where showing in bwalley's video?


If you mean racking vs stacking, either way is ok. 

Regions/manufacturers will determine what's best for them. 

I prefer to rack them (going "up" the roof from eave to rake).

I have no problem with stacking (going horizontally), but for me, it's faster to rack 'em.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Racking voids warranty on most laminates.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> Racking voids warranty on most laminates.


CetainTeed (the only manufacturer I install) stands behind their products being racked as long as they are installed to spec. Gotta like that kind of confidence. 

I heard one manufacturer's reasons for not allowing racking include;

*discoloration in shingle batches being more noticeable (manufacturer defect which shouldn't be installed on roof in first place and besides, I've seen discolored shingles on both racked and stacked roofs)

*installers many miss nailing 1 nail (installer failure not due to racking itself) 

*if installed in cold weather, shingle may become brittle or fail when lifted to insert other shingle under (if it's that cold, nobody should be installing shingles anyway). 

If a company (in my opinion) won't warranty their products based on those criteria, then I wouldn't use them anyway. 

Think about it, if it's good enough for a 3-Tab shingle and it's been done for a century (I remember tearing off 3-Tab roofs that were 40 years old when I was a kid), why would it be any "less" ok for a shingle that not only has keys, but that has about 50% more material on it? 

It all boils down to liability issues. Some companies just put up as many excuses as possible to "not" stand behind their products. 

Good product + professional installer = a great roof. 




[I always confuse the 2...racking vs stacking.  ]


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I call them it stacking or stepping. Actually went to an inspection today on a roof that is perhaps the worst install I have ever seen. The "rack" was a whole two inches but it has been on nearly 10 years and has not yet leaked. I also agree with MJW. I have never put dimensional on the same way as 3 tab although like 2ndGen says, I am sure it is fine if done properly.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

With a laminate, there is more shingle for the wind to catch and lift the entire shingle. That is why racking is ok on tabbed shingles. Still not the recommended method for most shingles. Are you sure Certainteed will warranty a racked Landmark roof? I'm calling BS on that one. It doesn't even list it as an alternate method. We have handled claims with laminates that were installed incorrectly (racked) and the warranty was void.

According to IRC code, they have to be stair stepped. Every inspector and Rep we have talked to says racking is not allowed with laminates.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

double post


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I call them it stacking or stepping. Actually went to an inspection today on a roof that is perhaps the worst install I have ever seen. The "rack" was a whole two inches but it has been on nearly 10 years and has not yet leaked. I also agree with MJW. I have never put dimensional on the same way as 3 tab although like 2ndGen says, I am sure it is fine if done properly.


Stacking is "smarter". 

It's more installer friendly.

Less waste. 

But, in the hands of a traditional Roofer, 
racking is superior as far as production goes. 

Today, I laid up 5 squares (walkable, over felted ply) in just over an hour before the rain got to us early in the morning and that was while teaching the 2 helpers I had with me. 

For a guy who prefers to stack them, he could do the same. 

 

It's personal preference IMO. 

Could someone under the same conditions stack 5 squares in just over an hour? Of course...but not me. Well, I guess I could if I really wanted to, but I just can't see myself really wanting to stack shingles! 

:laughing:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> Are you sure Certainteed will warranty a racked Landmark roof?


Yes.






> I'm calling BS on that one.


Better yet, "call" CertainTeed Tech on that one: 1 (800) 233-8990

I did (just to confirm that it was still allowed). 





> It doesn't even list it as an alternate method. We have handled claims with laminates that were installed incorrectly (racked) and the warranty was void.


To CertainTeed? 







> According to IRC code, they have to be stair stepped.


Where? 






> Every inspector and Rep we have talked to says racking is not allowed with laminates.


Including CertainTeed's?


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Maybe you won't need it, but good luck passing an inspection (if you have them) and good luck with a wind warranty claim. Next time, ask the Rep, not the tech line about warranty. The Rep handles warranty within the first year. After that you send in the shingles and/or pictures.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> Maybe you won't need it, but good luck passing an inspection (if you have them) and good luck with a wind warranty claim. Next time, ask the Rep, not the tech line about warranty. The Rep handles warranty within the first year. After that you send in the shingles and/or pictures.


Does this mean that you're "not" going to answer my questions?


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Yes, Certainteed rep. His name is Howie. I should clarify that it voids the wind warranty. 

The IRC code states that the shingles are to be installed according to manufacturer installation instructions. No where in the MSA does it mention racking as a method for Landmarks.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> Yes, Certainteed rep. His name is Howie. I should clarify that it voids the wind warranty.
> 
> The IRC code states that the shingles are to be installed according to manufacturer installation instructions. No where in the MSA does it mention racking as a method for Landmarks.


And nowhere is it forbidden.  At least, not in writing. I can't say what is "implied" or verbally communicated. Also, the CertainTeed Shingle Applicator's Manual in Chapter 12 on Page# 121 states that stacking is "one" method of installing Landmarks (not the only method).





I remember having this exact same exchange with someone last year here.
I asked them to provide any documentation or at least a reference that stated that a warranty would be voided if the Landmarks were racked.

Ah yes! It was here and guess who it was...you! And it's the same argument...that racking is "not" forbidden! But don't take my word for it: 












> =MJW;401279]You only have one point, and that it doesn't say "NOT" to rack them.








Matter of fact, same question remains: 








http://www.contractortalk.com/f15/racking-vs-stacking-35845/#post401332




By the way...
1. Did you call CertainTeed and ask them what their policy is regarding racking Landmarks (if they'd warranty the work provided that it was installed to their specifications)?

2. Did you personally ever have any CertainTeed work refused a warranty because the shingles were racked (the claims that you handled)?


:sleeping:


http://www.contractortalk.com/f15/racking-vs-stacking-35845/#post401332


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## mikec (Jan 2, 2007)

2cndgen, do you have an older installers manual?
On page 121 chapter 12 of mine it discusses installing cap.
In chapter 12 'Landmark chapter, it shows 2 ways to install, and both are stacking (booking).

Type 1 is cutting 7" and 14" then using the 2 pieces for the top 2 starters.
Type 2 is cutting 6" and 11" then using the pieces.

No where in my Certainteed book does it say racking is allowed with Landmarks.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Like I said before 2ndgen, it doesn't say "not" to install them upside down either, but no one does it. Is there a sign on the roads that say "no driving on left side of road"? No! Instructions are made to tell you how to do something, not 'what not to do'. 

With your thinking on this, we could install siding from the top down, and windows in upside down, and no one could tell us we are wrong because "it doesn't say not to".

I was right last year about this and I'm right this time.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

mikec said:


> 2cndgen, do you have an older installers manual?
> On page 121 chapter 12 of mine it discusses installing cap.
> In chapter 12 'Landmark chapter, it shows 2 ways to install, and both are stacking (booking).
> 
> ...


No...I got it off of CertainTeed's site. 

(Instructions for installing Landmarks).


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> Like I said before 2ndgen, it doesn't say "not" to install them upside down either, but no one does it. Is there a sign on the roads that say "no driving on left side of road"? No! Instructions are made to tell you how to do something, not 'what not to do'.
> 
> With your thinking on this, we could install siding from the top down, and windows in upside down, and no one could tell us we are wrong because "it doesn't say not to".
> 
> I was right last year about this and I'm right this time.


The difference between you oranges and my apples is that no one's been installing shingles upside down for a hundred years. And, we're discussing something that actually "is" done and according to your own written sources, not forbidden (except by you). The only evidence you've provided regarding CertainTeed has been non-CertainTeed related material and hearsay.

And yes, you're still right...I did have a point that there is nothing in writing from CertainTeed that states that warranties are voided if installed in the traditional manner of racking.

Don't forget to let us know what CertainTeed's Tech tells you when you call them today!

:thumbsup:


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## MrRoofer (Sep 21, 2008)

It never ceases to amaze me how many crappy shingling videos there are out there. That guy hand nailing was hilarious. You could almost feel the frustration from trying to go too fast, and ending up slow with a crappy install. Do it right the first time becasue there is no such thing as doing it right a second time. The boy with the nailer is going to wind up shooting himself at some point. Funny stuff.

On the whole gun vs hand nail issue;

When I started shingling, rates were about 3$ a bundle to hand nail on new construction, greenhorns we were not allowed to use guns. I believe this is the way new trainess should be taught, for several fundamental reasons;

A) Learn how to drive a nail flush and not through
B) There are instances where handnailing is the better route to go; ie under soffits where your gun will not fit
C) In the event of a power or equipment failure, you are not screwed. You should still be able to make good money hand nailing. By the time you go run back home or to the shop for the back up compressor or nailer and come back, you could have installed another 5 squares with your hammer.
D) Nails are cheaper.
E) It is an aquired skill, to the point where the best at doing it are trully artists' in their own right. Aquired skills build confidence, confidence leads to better productivity.
F) They learn to appreciate the gun more when they do graduate onto it. Chances are they are less likely to bash it for fear of being reduced to bludgeoning their own fingers again.

A good shingler should have in his possesion a roofing hatchet, not a drywall hatchet or hammer. The weight of the roofing hatchet is crucial to driving the nail home on the first _full_ swing. Set, swing, set, swing. The best full time hand nailers also use wooden handles to help ease the blow on the arm. An axe is useful for so many things shingling to boot. Seperating shingles for repairs, using it as a gauge, using it as a gauge to set your nail to chalk lines for cap, using it to chop vent holes, using it to chip crusty old tar from anything. None of this, a hammer can do, well, not nearly as well. If all else fails you can take the damn thing camping to cut kindling, I always do .

After graduating from crushing your fingers into not noticing anymore :laughing:, we get into the guns. I started out learning to step (staircasing or racking), and used the little tabs on the sides for horizontal, and the little tabs at the top for vertical. Of course after a short period of time the understanding that not all shingles are created equal came into play . If you step three tabs, you will have problems with your keys or t's lining up eventually on a long run, this is why it is best to block (straight up) on anything over 20' in my opinion, with the exception being laminates.

On the gauge. The most productive way to install shingles is with a gun, with a gauge. The reason is this; you never put the gun down, eliminating at least one step and at least one second for every shingle installed. I have always found the best way is to have one helper feeding you shingles and nails, with the only time that gun ever comes out of your hand is when you have to reach for a knife to cut around a vent or rake, or your hammer to drive the odd nail flush. Never leave a side unfinished, it is wasted time to come back and finish when you were already over there once already. Every second, and indeed, millisecond, add up at the end fo the day, month, year etc. Having said that, the gauge is also the easiest and fastest way to screw up. If more than one guy is on the same side, those gauges need to be one hundred percent the same or fergetaboutit.

I really think the reason manufacturers void (not that I have personally seen this, Ive only heard this) rack warranties is because of the shoddy workmanship that comes with it most of the time. Guys are trying to go too fast, and the nailing suffers, usually resulting in blowoffs. Then again, most guys on the roof aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, so who can balme them for wanting to get the job done so they can wander off to their favorite watering hole, it's not like they are going to get rich doing this!

Personally with laminates, I step em. I feel the whole blocking thing is worse from the standpoint lifting that tab is more likely to cause the nail to pull trhough on the shingle above. I say this because in this neck of the woods, at least half the year we are dealing with low enough temperatures to make the shingles brittle enough to do this. And I am not going to sit at home half the damn year waiting for warmer temperatures, it doesn't pay the bills!

With three tabs, I mostly block them, just becuase regardless of quality of install with regard to the nailing, if those lines don't line up, it looks like ass, and we all know that in this modern uber world, aesthetics are everything, and practicality means nothing (excpet to those who are practical, and who imo, have it right fundamentally, but hey thats a whole other diatribe in unto itself  ).

IMO the three tab is more suceptible to wind damage because of the design. There are three tabs for the wind to catch, with the fasteners being a lot closer to leading edges, if you can envision what I'm saying :laughing:. The only laminates I ever see blow off are ones that have not sealed properly. I have never seen a sealed laminate blow off yet, regardless of the nails, with the exception being at rake ends. Three tabs can blow off anywhere because the sides of the tabs are not sealed down, making them an inferior product by a large margin, again, IMNSHO :jester:.

At the end of the day, manufacturers instructions can be just as suceptible to failure as an unrecommended installation technique. Therefore it is safe to assume in some instances certain installation techniques are better than manufacturers recomendations .

Not saying I recommend that, but, just sayin all the same.

I live in the land of the long winds btw, in case you havent noticed. Happy shingling fellas. :whistling:bangin:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MrRoofer said:


> It never ceases to amaze me how many crappy shingling videos there are out there. That guy hand nailing was hilarious. You could almost feel the frustration from trying to go too fast, and ending up slow with a crappy install. Do it right the first time becasue there is no such thing as doing it right a second time. The boy with the nailer is going to wind up shooting himself at some point. Funny stuff.
> 
> On the whole gun vs hand nail issue;
> 
> ...


Agreed.

A gun is a tool that in and of itself is only as good as it's user.

With regards to manufacturers instructions, there are times when I go above and beyond what they require leaving that to my discretion depending on the job I'm performing and local conditions. 

After a quarter of a century of shingling and with the wisdom of my elders (my father and his friends who've taught me among other professionals who I've worked with across the country) who have twice as much experience as me along with my reliance on what the manufacturers put out, I try to come to the best conclusion. 

I believe that "region" has a lot to do with how a material performs. 

Wind, weather, conditions, etc...along with applicator skill all make up the final deciding factors as to how a roof will last. For me, the manufacturer's specs should be the "minimum" requirements, but not necessarily the end all/be all to a job. 

Personally, I've never had a warranty problem with any roof I've ever installed. But then again, I use CertainTeed and they've always produced quality products for us. Before them, I was a solid Bird & Son user (and was happy when CertainTeed acquired them). I just lay a roof out right and make sure I use good stock. I only use Contractor Supply stock (never home center stuff). 

I'll step Lams for smaller area roofs & dormers, but for a larger area, I have to rack them. It makes great sense in the smaller areas to step them.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Mr. Roofer, 

As for your uses of Shingling Hatchets...been there done that. It's almost a tool box itself. I've used mine to cut, chop, pry, slice and SLAP CHOP! LOL!

I was a little sad last week...my current Eastwing has to be retired. I've been on it now for 10 years. It's time to go. the head is too smooth to bite nails right. I could regrind it, but I love any excuse to buy a new tool. It was hard for me to find the Estwings with the big heads and the nail cutout in the axe part of it. They only have the smaller heads with that feature. 

But, maybe it's a great time for me to move up to this: 













I actually have a Roofer's Hatchet designed and ready to be patented and am in contact with Stiletto to produce it. It's going to be an awesome tool. I guarantee you that it will be the best Hatchet available. 

I currently have 3 Stiletto tools (two Framers and their cat's paw). 

Simply the best of the best.

I'm going to pick up about 1/2 a dozen hatchets anyway from different manufacturers. I've always wanted a collection. 

I usually give my older ones away to rookies for them to learn on before they get too worn out (but this one, I kept and will have around for all the other uses you mentioned...pretty much anything but shingling!).


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Racking voids wind warranty....period.

I know a few local guys who had to change how they shingle because they were selling roofs with no wind warranty.....and yes, it is Certainteed.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Right from Certainteeds list of things that will void wind warranty.............

"Damage caused by improper installation *or installation not in accordance with CertainTeed’s installation
instructions published at the time of original installation.*"


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## mikec (Jan 2, 2007)

2ndgen,
I call BS.
Here is the installation instructions from certainteeds website: 
http://www.certainteed.com/resources/landmarkinstall.pdf

It reads exactly like my manual. No where do i see where racking is allowed with Landmarks.

Any roof I ever saw that was racked with archs looked like dog doo-doo.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

mikec said:


> 2ndgen,
> I call BS.
> Here is the installation instructions from certainteeds website:
> http://www.certainteed.com/resources/landmarkinstall.pdf
> ...


Uh, you're late. 

1. No one ever said that racking is allowed in the manuals. 
2. I said that no where is it "not" allowed.
3. It also says that stacking (nesting) is only "*one*" way of installing them. 
4. It is not explicitly stated that racking will void the warranty.
(That is, unless you can provide some evidence otherwise?)

Or, you can just call CertainTeed yourself (I provided the toll free number here). 
I called them. But, I'll let you hear what they have to say about it for yourself.

"Did" you or did you not call CertainTeed yourself?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> Right from Certainteeds list of things that will void wind warranty.............
> 
> "Damage caused by improper installation *or installation not in accordance with CertainTeed’s installation
> instructions published at the time of original installation.*"


I don't see the phrase "racking is not allowed" there.

Did you call CertainTeed directly like I did yet and heard it from The Horse's Mouth?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> Racking voids wind warranty....period.


Great! 

Now show me where it states that literally...(besides hearsay);

[insert evidence here now]


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

*Show! 

Me!

The! 

Evidence!

Do you love this "rack" man?*


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

I got it from the "horse's mouth" (the regional Rep) and am just letting you know. I really don't care how you want to do your roofs or run your business. Just don't spread lies. 

I don't see anywhere where is says 'not' to use GAF starters either. It states to use Certainteed starter to get the warranty. If they had to state everything *not* to do, we would have instructions that are as long as a legislators health care bill. Attitudes like this are why we have so much trouble interpretting what we *are* actually supposed to do.

Do what the instructions say..........is it that hard to understand?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> I got it from the "horse's mouth" (the regional Rep) and am just letting you know. I really don't care how you want to do your roofs or run your business. Just don't spread lies.
> 
> I don't see anywhere where is says 'not' to use GAF starters either. It states to use Certainteed starter to get the warranty. If they had to state everything *not* to do, we would have instructions that are as long as a legislators health care bill. Attitudes like this are why we have so much trouble interpretting what we *are* actually supposed to do.
> 
> Do what the instructions say..........is it that hard to understand?


Negative evidence doesn't work to support you argument MJ. 
It can literally be used against your argument, so I'd leave that one alone if I were you.

Now, what did CertainTeed say when you called them directly?


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

I've had enough...........I've seen claims denied, that's enough for me. Learn how to shingle correctly.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> I've had enough...........I've seen claims denied, that's enough for me. Learn how to shingle correctly.


Define "correctly"?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_...comp-shingle-joint-allignment-staggering.html

*Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.*


> Just got ahold of CertainTeed (The manufacturer) and they said all was well, it would not void the warranty, it would just look funny (which is why it caught my eye I suppose).


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## mikec (Jan 2, 2007)

Nice job editing your posts to support your argument 2ndgen.
First you where quoting page numbers where it stated racking was ok, now you've edited that. Only problem is the page you refer to still had nothing to do with stacking vs racking.
But anyways, you roof the way you want stack, rack, flip ,flop. 

By the way.. didn't you give up roofing to go work as some sort of an inspector? What happened there?


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

2ndGen said:


> Define "correctly"?


IMO, it means done according to instructions. Any objection? :blink:


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

mikec said:


> Nice job editing your posts to support your argument 2ndgen.
> First you where quoting page numbers where it stated racking was ok, now you've edited that. Only problem is the page you refer to still had nothing to do with stacking vs racking.
> But anyways, you roof the way you want stack, rack, flip ,flop.
> 
> By the way.. didn't you give up roofing to go work as some sort of an inspector? What happened there?


I've seen many posters here who just cannot learn anything new. It's just nature for some. Some guys can't shingle right to left or left to right....I say, learn to shingle both ways. Some just can't shingle without the gauge on the gun, because they learn one way and can't change. Most of it is just laziness, but it is very common to learn something wrong and continue to do it, even if you know it's wrong because they refuse to learn anything new.


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## MrRoofer (Sep 21, 2008)

That's a sweet looking piece of axe!

I could have used those nail sets' (or whatever they're called) back when I still had feeling in my fingers.

Is the middle of that thing hollow?

I've only gone through three Estwing's over the years, two worn out, and one is at the bottom of a river from a rafting trip gone wrong :laughing:.



The only issue I see with racking is nails pulling through, no? On a nice day with a good installer, this shouldn't be a problem.





> Wind, weather, conditions, etc...along with applicator skill all make up the final deciding factors as to how a roof will last. For me, the manufacturer's specs should be the "minimum" requirements, but not necessarily the end all/be all to a job.


This sums up my thoughts on the subject pretty well. It's amazing how much the manufacturers have learned from the installers over the years


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