# What kind of nail for wall ties?



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Off topic - is "to challenge a test" the Canadian translation of the American phrase "to take a test" or is there some additional layer of meaning? Does it apply to a weekly high school math test as well as to Red Seal exams?


To challenge a test is term used (for what reason I don't know) when you take federal or provincial exams to get certifications/. 

For example, you "challenge" a firearms exam but you "take" a biology test.

Again, not sure why it's like that but it's the terminology that is used.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

heavyc said:


> fjn, on the link you provided in your previous post unless I miss read it confirmed what I stated about the placement of ties. Every stud vertically 16"or24" which I've never seen 24"or would I want to and minimally 16" horizontally? Maybe some neigh sayer's on the forum need to recant some of their negative insults.(dom-mas) again just saying. Back to the pdf's you just posted I'm having trouble downloading/opening. Maybe you could summarize it for me. Thanks.


You need to install wall ties minimum every 2.67 sqft as fourthgen said. So with studs @ 16" centres that puts a wall tie at every 2' vertically (every 8 courses with standard brick, 6 or 7 courses with oversize brick and with that tiny brick the dutch guys were using every 11 courses.) Studs CAN be @ 24" centres on garages or other non dwellings and in some circumstances they are used on energy efficient homes where thermal bridging is a concern. Also studs can be spaced @ 19.2 centres so wall ties would need to be every 20" or 7 courses or so. 

If block is the substrate every 16" is most common since blok lok (you guys call it durwall or something) is most often installed every 2nd course and which the ties are incorporated into. if that is the case then ties can be spaced every 2' apart.

Of course engineers (Army corp of engineers or whoever else) specs supercedes anything the bldg code has to say


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> I assumed it was the same as taking a challenge test for college credits without going through the course (in this case, an apprenticeship).


That sounds about right.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> It's interesting. Bolting angle to wood lintels seems to be fairly common practise in the US but my code book only has tables for loose steel lintels, and only up to 10'4" I believe



Ok while we're discussing lintels here's a situation I have going on at my house. 
It is regarding recent crack in my brick veneer at the end of a window lintel. The window is some 8' 6'' and the lintel is sanded/primed and painted with rustolium,two coats. There is also a long hairline about 12'' high off the foundation running parallel to the foundation ie at the level of the floor and 2 x 12 box and joist which run perpendicular ie load bearing wood framed wall.

About a foot away from the lintel crack there is a soffet from a room extending out at 90 degrees. This room attaches to the main house and both have brick veneer. 
The main house being higher had to have brick laid over the roof lines of the addition and in seeing so many masons lay brick right on the roof 
I never cared for it, wether beefed up with a triple rafter or even flitch plated, so I ran a steel beam above the hall way ceiling elevation over to a steel column positioned within a partition chase that divides the hall from the basement stairs. 
The post supports the end of the 16' i beam then another continues up 5' to support [via welding] an angle iron lintel situated just under the roof where I had the framer leave a pocket by keeping the rafters away from the main house 5-1/2'' or so. This angle iron lintel runs downward some 10' or so at the same pitch as the roofs and is welded to a 12'' piece at the bottom where it sits on the brick wall just behind the soffet at the right side of the mentioned window and crack.
I made a flat bottom U shape copper trough which had a 3'' loose hem to receive step flashing and layed it on the lintel with tar paper between them. The house wrap goes into the trough along the framed wall exiting out of a weep hole just at the soffet base where the bearing plate rests. I did this to create a fast cheap copper thru wall flashing without building a labor intensive 3 D soldered step flashing resembling a stair case, as I did on the 16' opposite side over the porch. Both never leak the faintest amount of moisture.
I didn't pin thru the copper into the angle iron lintel as very little weight is on it and wasnt worried about brick slide. 

What I attribute the cracking to is perhaps that I built a huge crow bar by welding the base piece.ie all that has to happen is for ether wall to settle one iota in order to lift the wall, hence the crack at the lintel and along the box line is also from lift? Perhaps I should of pinned the base plate and let it flex!

I did use very heavy wall ties which no doubt are pushing the brickwork via bulged plywood along the shrunk 1 x 12 box..so is this long lower hairline lift or lateral movement?

Another thing I did that wasn't too smart. 
I had the framer leave the cedar soffets in about 1/2" from the brick line and then bricked up tight to them, thinking I was doing good. 
Well via shrinking boxes and bulging plywood guess what holds the rafters up while the framed wall floats.

There is a crack opening in the middle of the double window sill above [it's flashed] which confirms settling of either the post or the main house wall, so the only question is the long lateral hairline near the box at the foundation. 
The post sits on a interior 12'' conc wall.
The last pic is a view showing the opposite side where the I beam starts at the right side of the front door up just over ceiling height. That is the side where it's thru wall 3D copper flashed.

I do recall over excavating [a bit] the footings under the 8' window with the track loader and thought I had it covered by leaving the footings deep rather than filling them in ie all sand....I even watered / soaked and tamped them?

Once I was digging a addition for an old carpenter whom stopped me the last six inches. 
I said to him that I could get it closer but he waived me off saying that he wanted to hand dig the last part to avoid cracks caused by the bucket teeth over excavating.....''But'' I said, "I can lay the bucket flat!''...he politely refused again.

I knew it all back then! :no:


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> You need to install wall ties minimum every 2.67 sqft as fourthgen said. So with studs @ 16" centres that puts a wall tie at every 2' vertically (every 8 courses with standard brick, 6 or 7 courses with oversize brick and with that tiny brick the dutch guys were using every 11 courses.) Studs CAN be @ 24" centres on garages or other non dwellings and in some circumstances they are used on energy efficient homes where thermal bridging is a concern. Also studs can be spaced @ 19.2 centres so wall ties would need to be every 20" or 7 courses or so.
> 
> If block is the substrate every 16" is most common since blok lok (you guys call it durwall or something) is most often installed every 2nd course and which the ties are incorporated into. if that is the case then ties can be spaced every 2' apart.
> 
> Of course engineers (Army corp of engineers or whoever else) specs supercedes anything the bldg code has to say


Did you read the link that fjn provided? I recall it came from MAC. First paragraph and according to meeting BOCA National Building Code requirements.? That's MAC masonry advisory council.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

oops the pics I'll do it later


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I just did. I thought you were talking about his link about R values. OBC (Ontario building code) 9.20.9.5 says that masonry veneer tying has to conform to these specs as a minimum. 

Vertical spacing horizontal spacing
16" 32"
20" 24"
24" 16"

# 3 is the most common for stud framing that I have seen. I will accept my building code over some on-line MAC any day every day


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Fancis Casini said:


> oops the pics I'll do it later


Just a thought, maybe a cj/ej near the area could have helped. On our projects they are required every where seems like. But the ground is pounded daily by artillery shaking the windows, ground, scaffolding and entire building depending on what round training calls for. My point never seen a crack in any of the buildings we've done. Don't know why residential construction never uses them. Seems they work well? The magnitude of settling and shifting that occurs on said jobs must be much greater than residential not to mention seismic activity (ground shaking under your feet) and yet no cracks?


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> I just did. I thought you were talking about his link about R values. OBC (Ontario building code) 9.20.9.5 says that masonry veneer tying has to conform to these specs as a minimum.
> 
> Vertical spacing horizontal spacing
> 16" 32"
> ...


So not as to put words in your mouth but. Don't always believe what you read especially when it proves your point to be invalid. (Wrong)


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Just to throw this out there since steel studs have been a small portion of this discussion. There has been a reasonable amount of testing / studies revolving around steel studs used as a back up for masonry. It is most prevalent in commercial / institutional construction and much less so in residential. Aside from the corrosion concerns there has also been deflection concerns even in conjunction with the heavier 20 ga.+ studs .

At there debut,most were used with a typical sheating,either gypsum or plywood. The poor thermal properties were soon recognized and a foam board was then advocated to address those deficiencies.The use of fiberglass bats in the bays were pretty much a wash,a spray foam then became the insulation of choice.

All that seemed wonderful......for a time. DuPont,one of the largest producers of rigid board stock decided to do their own testing on their own material. Their findings were somewhat unnerving,they discovered that by the mere affixing of their foam boards (any thickness or composition) to the exterior of the metal studs with the necessary screws reduced the R value of their panel by exactly 50 % !



So,in light of some of the other concerns associated with metal studs,I would say that they are a rather poor choice to use in conjunction with a masonry veneer.


To me,it seems a no brainer,if you want to build a building with a long service history,just look at long standing,long serving buildings.


Leave all the accouterments i.e. glues,caulks,weeps,base flashings,head flashings,control joints,expansion joints ,brittle over fired cored brick along with rigid unforgiving harsh mortars etc. on the supply house counters. Stop constantly backing up trying to shore up a flawed system by continually searching for another "magic" material to solve the problem the previously one created.


Get back to a masonry building with a proven track record with hundreds ,even thousands of years of years of service to prove its durability. Just felt like venting.:laughing:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

heavyc said:


> So not as to put words in your mouth but. Don't always believe what you read especially when it proves your point to be invalid. (Wrong)


Not exactly. But I don't put a lot of credence in any online publication particularly when it says different than an actual book that i have in front of me that is THE code book for my area. The MAC or BIA could say whatever they want but if my code book differs then it means squat unless an engineer specs something different and puts his stamp on it. The international and the national code book are always superceded by local building codes

Obviously everyone's area is different (particularly overseas countries such as holland) but it seemed clear to me that fourthgen has the same code definition for wall tie spacing so it can't be a Canadian/Ontario specific code. Further I've worked with several bricklayers that have spent time in the US and they had nothing different to say about wall tie spacing (granted it wasn't a frequent topic of conversation but like this forum when someone has different experiences or opinions they are very vocal about them). 

I'd be interested to hear what the New England contingent has to say about wall tie spacing


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fancis Casini said:


> Ok while we're discussing lintels here's a situation I have going on at my house.
> It is regarding recent crack in my brick veneer at the end of a window lintel. The window is some 8' 6'' and the lintel is sanded/primed and painted with rustolium,two coats. There is also a long hairline about 12'' high off the foundation running parallel to the foundation ie at the level of the floor and 2 x 12 box and joist which run perpendicular ie load bearing wood framed wall.
> 
> About a foot away from the lintel crack there is a soffet from a room extending out at 90 degrees. This room attaches to the main house and both have brick veneer.
> ...





When you get a chance,post a picture or two of the cracking,it would help visualize the situation.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

fjn said:


> So,in light of some of the other concerns associated with metal studs,I would say that they are a rather poor choice to use in conjunction with a masonry veneer.
> 
> 
> To me,it seems a no brainer,if you want to build a building with a long service history,just look at long standing,long serving buildings.
> ...


I agree 100%...although i would like to add that in my experience wood framed buildings can last a very long time. I work very frequently on wood framed homes with tar paper WRB, folded at the foundation as a bond break, 1" airspace and no weeps, lime mortar and soft clamp fired brick and they are in VERY good shape still. The wood sheathing is bone dry the brick are in excellent shape, the mortar is soft but serviceable. The water gets in and the brick and mortar breath it back out.

Oh and the wall ties are 3" square nails nailed into the 1" sheathing every 16 x 24 or so, not galvanised or SS


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> I agree 100%...although i would like to add that in my experience wood framed buildings can last a very long time. I work very frequently on wood framed homes with tar paper WRB, folded at the foundation as a bond break, 1" airspace and no weeps, lime mortar and soft clamp fired brick and they are in VERY good shape still. The wood sheathing is bone dry the brick are in excellent shape, the mortar is soft but serviceable. The water gets in and the brick and mortar breath it back out.
> 
> Oh and the wall ties are 3" square nails nailed into the 1" sheathing every 16 x 24 or so, not galvanised or SS


That old northern yellow pine sheathing is better than oak....heck even black ants hate it. We make nice floats with it especially bull floats. I did my house with beams from an old factory made out of it. The adze bounces off ! As far as tar paper goes I love it....Ive seen tyvec behind huge veneers get pulpy and the ss staples rust out.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> I work very frequently on wood framed homes with tar paper WRB, folded at the foundation as a bond break, 1" airspace and no weeps, lime mortar and soft clamp fired brick and they are in VERY good shape still. The wood sheathing is bone dry the brick are in excellent shape, the mortar is soft but serviceable. The water gets in and the brick and mortar breath it back out.
> 
> Oh and the wall ties are 3" square nails nailed into the 1" sheathing every 16 x 24 or so, not galvanised or SS




There have been numerous articles showing the absolute sever degradation of "designer" house wraps after an extremely short period of time,5-10 years. Matter of fact,one featured article made it to the cover of JLC a few years back.Many installers have reverted back to the good old fashion black felt paper. One thing I think the jury is still out on is this. Old time felt had a certain amount of linen rag as an ingredient of the paper which is absent in today's felt. I think it may be pure conjecture to project the long life cycle of today's felt without the proven test of time.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

On 2x4 framed units, using fasteners that are to long could damage the house wiring and plumbing.

grossly over sized fasteners just split the studs, I use 2 smaller gauge screws per tie on old plastered houses, sometimes even re-screwing the old sheathing snug to the studs prior to installing the brick tie.


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