# Mac Attack



## The Coastal Craftsman

Tiger said:


> What does it cost to have it built? or to build it yourself?



Cost nothing to build it your self. Last one I built took me 2 hrs and that wS with hydro cooling and stealth cable mod. A shop would Prob charge you $200-300 to build a system to your specs plus hardware.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Tiger said:


> I just looked it up and found TomsHardware which apparently routinely has a builder's challenge. The lowest of 3 is $750. The 2015 came in a bit higher, like my Mac Mini. The Mac has an i5, theirs has an i3. RAM & HD drive looked the same. Mine has software and continuing infection protection.
> 
> 
> 
> Not that I really care. I have more fun driving a Mac than I had driving a PC.



In the end that's what it comes down to. Ignoring all the myths the fanboys repeat constantly people use what they prefer. But sticking to facts you can have a vastly more powerful PC system for the same price or less than a Apple system. 

Also just to clarify on specs it's not as simple as you think when it comes to system hardware. 

You can have 2 systems with

i5
6gb graphics card
32gb ram
1tb hard drive

Yet one is twice as powerful as the other. You need to look deeper into specs when doing comparisons as the small details matter a lot. This is where Apple are cleaver as they reduce hardware spec and change model numbers so it's almost impossible to do a comparison unless you know what you are looking for. Take the new Mac Pro as an example. They had almost all the hardware declocked and redesign because the cooling system was not capable to cool the higher end components.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

TNTSERVICES said:


> I've not worked on my PCs in 10 years. Again a myth.



The first PC I ever built is still running. It's being used as part of a music producers system to make synth sounds. It's had a new hard drive installed. It was a pentium 4 so shows you how old it was. Still has original water cooling system too.


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## hdavis

BCConstruction said:


> No they absolutely will not.


All it requires is a change to the Final Test program, whether it's chips or cards or boards. It's just a little bit of code, which takes little time to do. Validating the change is more expensive. 

Put enough money on the table and you can get almost anything - chip design changes, different manufacturing process, you name it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

hdavis said:


> All it requires is a change to the Final Test program, whether it's chips or cards or boards. It's just a little bit of code, which takes little time to do. Validating the change is more expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> Put enough money on the table and you can get almost anything - chip design changes, different manufacturing process, you name it.



Show me one piece of off the shelf hardware Apple pays to have made better than what any PC builder can buy.

I can show you their latest one. 

"The D300 is a Pitcairn-based GPU, just like the AMD FirePro W7000. The D300 features a narrower 256-bit memory bus with a 160 GB/s memory bandwidth.

We feel that the D300 is in essence the W7000 but with half the VRAM. The actual W7000 comes with 4 GB not 2 GB like the D300.

The D300 provides 2 teraflops of single precision compared to 2.4 for the W7000. Could this again be because of core clock differences? Has AMD provided D-series FirePros with slightly dialed down clocks for thermal temperature reasons?"


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## hdavis

BCConstruction said:


> Show me one piece of off the shelf hardware Apple pays to have made better than what any PC builder can buy.


I'll point out the obvious - if it's truly off the shelf, anyone can buy it, so it's impossible, by definition.

As for your previous assertion that nobody will customize for Apple, here's one example of a greatly customized card:

"
The AMD FirePro D500 is something of a hybrid of the AMD FirePro W7000 and the W8000 with a mix of components from the two cards, with enhancements including a faster memory bus, more stream processors and additional VRAM at 3GB per card. Architosh estimates that if an equivalent card was on sale it would retail for around $2,000 each. Yet, Apple is only charging $400 for the upgrade.
"

http://www.macnn.com/articles/14/04...s.power.the.mac.pro.to.new.performance.highs/


"Better" only exists within a specific application. Clearly Apple has chosen these cards as better for their systems - I don't see that you or I have the detailed system system design requirements they used, so it's tough to argue that they had cards customized for their application and it somehow made the system worse than using off the shelf cards. Apple clearly felt they were better for their application.

As to why they may have had reduced VRAM or underlocking in the card specs as part of a "better" product, here is just one possibility:

"
To a gamer, the last bullet may seem like an excuse for the card's down-clocking compared to something like the Radeon 7970 that the D700 is based on, but workstation cards are designed to work around the clock. If you read this post by an IT specialist who has two compute clusters—one with Quadro K5000 cards and one with Geforce cards—you can see the difference. A bunch of the Geforces have failed after running non-stop, but none of the Quadros have under the same punishing workload. The Mac Pro's FirePro is expected to perform under extended OpenCL compression or rendering workloads.
"

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2014/01/two-steps-forward-a-review-of-the-2013-mac-pro/3/


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## The Coastal Craftsman

hdavis said:


> I'll point out the obvious - if it's truly off the shelf, anyone can buy it, so it's impossible, by definition.
> 
> As for your previous assertion that nobody will customize for Apple, here's one example of a greatly customized card:
> 
> "
> The AMD FirePro D500 is something of a hybrid of the AMD FirePro W7000 and the W8000 with a mix of components from the two cards, with enhancements including a faster memory bus, more stream processors and additional VRAM at 3GB per card. Architosh estimates that if an equivalent card was on sale it would retail for around $2,000 each. Yet, Apple is only charging $400 for the upgrade.
> "
> 
> http://www.macnn.com/articles/14/04...s.power.the.mac.pro.to.new.performance.highs/
> 
> 
> "Better" only exists within a specific application. Clearly Apple has chosen these cards as better for their systems - I don't see that you or I have the detailed system system design requirements they used, so it's tough to argue that they had cards customized for their application and it somehow made the system worse than using off the shelf cards. Apple clearly felt they were better for their application.
> 
> As to why they may have had reduced VRAM or underlocking in the card specs as part of a "better" product, here is just one possibility:
> 
> "
> To a gamer, the last bullet may seem like an excuse for the card's down-clocking compared to something like the Radeon 7970 that the D700 is based on, but workstation cards are designed to work around the clock. If you read this post by an IT specialist who has two compute clusters—one with Quadro K5000 cards and one with Geforce cards—you can see the difference. A bunch of the Geforces have failed after running non-stop, but none of the Quadros have under the same punishing workload. The Mac Pro's FirePro is expected to perform under extended OpenCL compression or rendering workloads.
> "
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/apple/2014/01/two-steps-forward-a-review-of-the-2013-mac-pro/3/



It really is laughable how you fanboys never give the full story. 

"Because this is also a Tahiti-based unit it could be based on the W8000 or the W9000, though its memory bus is matched to the W9000. We just don’t know?" 

So basically Apple have again renamed an off the shelf card to make it hard for anyone to do a comparison. Again show me one piece of hardware Apple has taken which is available of the shelf and got that company to make better.

Let me put it a more simple way for you. There is nothing on any Apple system I can't go out and buy better for cheaper.


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## hdavis

BCConstruction said:


> It really is laughable how you fanboys never give the full story.
> 
> I've never bought any Apple product.
> 
> Let me put it a more simple way for you. There is nothing on any Apple system I can't go out and buy better for cheaper.


Since I already posted one that you couldn't buy one better, that should already been settled. You were wrong about getting custom cards (and chips, by the way), and you were wrong about buying better off the shelf as well. 

Building systems doesn't really give you a view of how all this works.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

hdavis said:


> Since I already posted one that you couldn't buy one better, that should already been settled. You were wrong about getting custom cards (and chips, by the way), and you were wrong about buying better off the shelf as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Building systems doesn't really give you a view of how all this works.



You have not though! Like I already said again and again and again Apple do not have hardware made that's better than off the shelf components. At best they have same specs as off the shelf like the Intel CPU's and a few random odds and ends they have no choice than to use. 

Let's use the d700 as an example. It's "Apples best" GPU and it just so happens to be the exact same spec as the w9000. Yet it's getting destroyed on bench marks! If Apple could do what you say then why not get ATI to design a card that's a better spec than their best off the shelf card. Oh yeah it's because Apple are less than 3% of ATI's buyers. Why exactly would ATI do this? I can answer this for you. It's the same exact reason Intel don't make the Apple CPUs better for Apple than Intel. That is also a fanboy myth. At best Apple buyers are getting the same models as PC users but paying double the price. I think a d700 machine starts at around $10k last time I looked. I can build that same machine for $6k but with vastly higher quality components than Apple is supplying. No matter how you try and word it Apple does not have better hardware than off the shelf PC components.


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## hdavis

BCConstruction said:


> It's "Apples best" GPU and it just so happens to be the exact same spec as the w9000. Yet it's getting destroyed on bench marks!
> 
> I've never bought or built a system to primarily run benchmarks. Benchmarks and best are two very different things.
> 
> If Apple could do what you say then why not get ATI to design a card that's a better spec than their best off the shelf card.
> 
> Simple - Apple, like all PC companies, sell PCs. They don't sell components. Bottom line is system performance for the target market. Down clocking on the multiple cards indicates they're looking for the reliability improvement.
> 
> Oh yeah it's because Apple are less than 3% of ATI's buyers. Why exactly would ATI do this? I can answer this for you. It's the same exact reason Intel don't make the Apple CPUs better for Apple than Intel.
> Wrong. As I already mentioned, this is a simple Final Test program bin change - they can take the fastest clocking ones for a premium. Also, you continue to ignore the fact that there was clearly a custom card made for Apple, so you're off base in your premise - there's hard data that you're wrong, I posted it, presumably you read it.
> 
> As far as Intel goes, they have a "copy exactly" strategy for their fab, and they historically keep the number of different parts to a minimum. Historically their production automation systems weren't set up to support this route, mainly because adding another product to a production line is expensive up front, and increases overall fab costs on all products on top of it. At one time they thought about getting into more custom work, but it really didn't fit in with how they were set up. Intel has run special Final Test programs before for (not sure if this part is confidential, so I've removed it). Like I said in the other post, adding some binning is cheap.
> 
> That is also a fanboy myth. At best Apple buyers are getting the same models as PC users but paying double the price. I think a d700 machine starts at around $10k last time I looked. I can build that same machine for $6k but with vastly higher quality components than Apple is supplying. No matter how you try and word it Apple does not have better hardware than off the shelf PC components.


There you go with "quality" and "better". There's nothing to really argue with there - they're both defined by Apple. End users can decide what system configuration is better or higher quality for their use.

In any event, a D700 machine can be bought from Apple for under $5K.


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## Tiger

BCConstruction said:


> Cost nothing to build it your self. Last one I built took me 2 hrs and that wS with hydro cooling and stealth cable mod. A shop would Prob charge you $200-300 to build a system to your specs plus hardware.


...and the price of materials?


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## The Coastal Craftsman

hdavis said:


> There you go with "quality" and "better". There's nothing to really argue with there - they're both defined by Apple. End users can decide what system configuration is better or higher quality for their use.
> 
> 
> 
> In any event, a D700 machine can be bought from Apple for under $5K.



So you couldn't show me one example where Apple has hardware made better than off the shelf hardware that PC builders use yet try and steer away from the very thing this started off from. 

You truly are an Apple fanboy of epic proportions. 

But like I keep saying Apple will never have the best hardware. For one it always gets released to the PC market before Apple even get their hands on it. A perfect example is the W9100 I can go buy one of the shelf today but there's no option for this on Apples systems and by the time there is the W9200 will be released. Having proprietary hardware design around current chipsets means you won't ever have the best available which means Apple systems will never be better than PC systems. 

what's clear is you have no idea about the PC side of hardware and how quickly it moves forward in specification.


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## Tiger

...and you won't concede that you can't build a comparable Mac Mini for $350 or have it built for $450 to back your claim.


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## hdavis

BCConstruction said:


> So you couldn't show me one example where Apple has hardware made better than off the shelf hardware that PC builders use yet try and steer away from the very thing this started off from.
> 
> You truly are an Apple fanboy of epic proportions.
> 
> But like I keep saying Apple will never have the best hardware. For one it always gets released to the PC market before Apple even get their hands on it. A perfect example is the W9100 I can go buy one of the shelf today but there's no option for this on Apples systems and by the time there is the W9200 will be released. Having proprietary hardware design around current chipsets means you won't ever have the best available which means Apple systems will never be better than PC systems.
> 
> what's clear is you have no idea about the PC side of hardware and how quickly it moves forward in specification.


This is just going around in circles. Video card specs are great, but pop them into a system and the world changes. Newest is usually not "best" or highest quality.

You're using "quality and "best" very lightly - in the electronics design and manufacturing world, that isn't done. Here's a quick "quality" viewpoint:

"
One view of quality is that it is defined entirely by the customer or end user, and is based upon that person's evaluation of his or her entire customer experience. The customer experience is defined as the aggregate of all the interactions that customers have with the company's products and services. For example, any time one buys a product, one forms an impression based on how it was sold, how it was delivered, how it performed, how well it was supported etc.
"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_%28business%29

In that frame, the end user doesn't get to decide the power supply, video card, etc isn't best, they decide if the system is best for them. People who are not users (this would be you) not only don't get to decide what's best for components, they don't even get to decide what system is best. Sure, you aren't their target market - that puts you on the sidelines for deciding "quality" or "best" for the Apple components.

The general topic as related to consumer electronics get way, way more complicated in actual practice. 

You're starting to sound like a HO that thinks a GC is charging to much - you can do it yourself better and cheaper with higher quality components.


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## 91782

Days of "building" desktops are on the wane.
In fact the heydays of the desktop are on the wane.

Nowadays, all the "i" thingies do the vast bulk of daily "stuff".

Life is way cooler now.

We have little tablets around here that do so much more than what Captain Kirks "Communcator" ever did- and no one knows - or cares what's inside them.

Beam me up Scottie.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

hdavis said:


> This is just going around in circles. Video card specs are great, but pop them into a system and the world changes. Newest is usually not "best" or highest quality.
> 
> You're using "quality and "best" very lightly - in the electronics design and manufacturing world, that isn't done. Here's a quick "quality" viewpoint:
> 
> "
> One view of quality is that it is defined entirely by the customer or end user, and is based upon that person's evaluation of his or her entire customer experience. The customer experience is defined as the aggregate of all the interactions that customers have with the company's products and services. For example, any time one buys a product, one forms an impression based on how it was sold, how it was delivered, how it performed, how well it was supported etc.
> "
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_(business)
> 
> In that frame, the end user doesn't get to decide the power supply, video card, etc isn't best, they decide if the system is best for them. People who are not users (this would be you) not only don't get to decide what's best for components, they don't even get to decide what system is best. Sure, you aren't their target market - that puts you on the sidelines for deciding "quality" or "best" for the Apple components.
> 
> The general topic as related to consumer electronics get way, way more complicated in actual practice.
> 
> You're starting to sound like a HO that thinks a GC is charging to much - you can do it yourself better and cheaper with higher quality components.



As I thought you still can't. Funny how when it's Apple using the newest it's the greatest thing since sliced bread yet when it's the people making the newest which apple don't use its not the best. You fanboys are always the same. Your all very consistent though. 

it still makes me chuckle every time you suggest that company's who make these things for anyone but Apple get inferior products. Where do you pull this crap from? 

But again like I say on every post Apple do not have the best systems. They don't have the best hardware, they don't have the best prices, they don't have the most reliable systems. They don't have anything that makes them stand out except high prices. 

They are nothing but form over function. The Mac Pro proves this time and time again when it's getting destroyed by systems 1/3rd the price.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Tiger said:


> ...and you won't concede that you can't build a comparable Mac Mini for $350 or have it built for $450 to back your claim.



Where have I said anything about Mac mini's. You fanboys just can't stop making stuff up lol. 

But if you want to bring these awful little systems up this is a good time. You ha e to remember I'm on Mac and Apple forums and I see non stop the bitching from buyers about the issues with the cost of these things but lack of things like removable ran and slow processors. As you should know you can build a system more powerful than the Mac mini for less money and it be possible to expand ram and add what ever cpu you could want. But i guess I'm gonna hear the advantages of soldered ram modules because it's a feature lol. 

You lot lose these arguments every time you get I to them but still come back for more. I just don't get why you want to lie about a product. The lengths you fanboys will goto an amazes me it really does. It don't matter if it's a phone, a computer, a router, a MP3 player, ITunes etc etc you will flat out lie about how great they are. How does this mindset even start!


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## The Coastal Craftsman

SmallTownGuy said:


> Days of "building" desktops are on the wane.
> In fact the heydays of the desktop are on the wane.
> 
> Nowadays, all the "i" thingies do the vast bulk of daily "stuff".
> 
> Life is way cooler now.
> 
> We have little tablets around here that do so much more than what Captain Kirks "Communcator" ever did- and no one knows - or cares what's inside them.
> 
> Beam me up Scottie.



There's no doubt. Tablets and all in ones have taken off big time but the self build market is still very big as these people wouldn't have bought any of the above anyway as they don't perform like they need them to. It's the reason companies like Nvidia and ATI, Intel, Corsair, Samsung etc etc release the new products to the mass market before Dell, Apple, Sony etc etc 

every company as a segment they cater to. 
Dell for cheap people.
Apple for the people who bought a dell yet expected it to function like a digital storm then sold the dell and was amazed at how much better a system was 5x the cost then thinks all PC's are the same.


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## Tiger

BCConstruction said:


> Where have I said anything about Mac mini's. You fanboys just can't stop making stuff up lol.
> 
> But if you want to bring these awful little systems up this is a good time. You ha e to remember I'm on Mac and Apple forums and I see non stop the bitching from buyers about the issues with the cost of these things but lack of things like removable ran and slow processors. As you should know you can build a system more powerful than the Mac mini for less money and it be possible to expand ram and add what ever cpu you could want. But i guess I'm gonna hear the advantages of soldered ram modules because it's a feature lol.
> 
> You lot lose these arguments every time you get I to them but still come back for more. I just don't get why you want to lie about a product. The lengths you fanboys will goto an amazes me it really does. It don't matter if it's a phone, a computer, a router, a MP3 player, ITunes etc etc you will flat out lie about how great they are. How does this mindset even start!


I'm just here for the amusement BC, you're the one resorting to name calling. I asked my SIL and he built a game capable unit for $800-1k. Was that so hard?

So this is what I have...a business capable Mac Mini that doubles as a media center. It cost $679 at Best Buy...used keyboard, used trackpad, used big screen TV. Security software is included. In nine years I have only clicked on update. No additional security software purchase or search for free security software. No searching online forums for solutions to virus or malware, no paying an IT guy twice a year to fix my disabled computer. Not that anyone else needs to do that, but I had to. So when we talks costs, let's not forget the value of my time and the expense of my IT guy.

Is my Mac Mini game capable? I'm guessing it's not. My son just got an Xbox One for $349 that is game capable. So we have business, media and games covered on two machines for $1,028. 

My experience with an iMac was good enough to purchase an iPad, iPhone and Mac Mini. My son's experience with Xbox was good enough to purchase another. 

My experience with Apple hasn't been perfect and I wouldn't mind discussing that. Still think I'm lying? Are you willing to discuss things that haven't been perfect with Microsoft? Because I'm getting crickets on the whole XP-Vista-7-8-10 issue as well as online security.


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## TWhite

BCConstruction said:


> As I thought you still can't. Funny how when it's Apple using the newest it's the greatest thing since sliced bread yet when it's the people making the newest which apple don't use its not the best. You fanboys are always the same. Your all very consistent though.
> 
> it still makes me chuckle every time you suggest that company's who make these things for anyone but Apple get inferior products. Where do you pull this crap from?
> 
> But again like I say on every post Apple do not have the best systems. They don't have the best hardware, they don't have the best prices, they don't have the most reliable systems. They don't have anything that makes them stand out except high prices.
> 
> They are nothing but form over function. The Mac Pro proves this time and time again when it's getting destroyed by systems 1/3rd the price.


BC your sweeping statements that you make are just way over the top! Take some deep breaths and count to ten.


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## TWhite

Leo G said:


> http://www.businessinsider.com/galaxy-s6-better-than-iphone-6-2015-7


http://appleinsider.com/articles/15...e-slides-84-after-mismanaged-galaxy-s6-launch


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## TWhite

BCConstruction said:


> Reminds me of when jobs said no one would need bigger screen that the iPhone 4. The dude didn't know what he was talking about as Apple buyers would have bought what ever screen size they sold. Now they know full well they will buy what ever they make no matter what.


I know I'm just a liar but I don't think your in the same league as Steve Jobs.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

TWhite said:


> http://appleinsider.com/articles/15...e-slides-84-after-mismanaged-galaxy-s6-launch



Lol brilliant a Apple fanboy site that won't load on my iPhone or my iPad or my kids IPad mini. Must be a feature lol


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## Xtrememtnbiker

It loaded for me in about 2 seconds... :whistling:


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## The Coastal Craftsman

TWhite said:


> I know I'm just a liar but I don't think your in the same league as Steve Jobs.



Steve jobs didn't know what he was talking about 95% of the time. Stealing a bunch of company's ideas and not paying them is nothing to boast about. 

Remember when he said no body would want a phone bigger than the iPhone 4 and that Apple would not be making larger phones or smaller iPads. 

Tony fadell played a away bigger part in making Apple as big as it is than jobs ever did. If it was not for him then the iPod or iPhone wouldn't even exist and it's thanks to the iPhone that sales of their desktops doubled almost overnight. 

Jobs was just a face to the fanboys who needed a god to devote their life to.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> It loaded for me in about 2 seconds... :whistling:



It loads for me instantly but then after 3 seconds does this.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Apple done a test on my phone a few weeks ago. Still within their specs for working ok! Look at how much I dropped in just a few mins. Might be a landline seeings it always has to be plugged in. Guess that's a feature too


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## Xtrememtnbiker

You have Bluetooth and location services on and crappy cell service.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> You have Bluetooth and location services on and crappy cell service.



I knew you would make excuses fanboy. Funny that though as my wife's phone has exactly the same stuff on and she didn't drop even one bar. You know full well that's not "normal" yet still side with Apple. A true fanboy right there.


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## Xtrememtnbiker

You are a funny man. For all the money you must have to spend on tools and yet you keep buying the same crappy products time and time again and never stop whining...


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> You are a funny man. For all the money you must have to spend on tools and yet you keep buying the same crappy products time and time again and never stop whining...



Yay 1% now


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## Xtrememtnbiker

You should take that to the Apple Store. Something is wrong with it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Charging for 15th time today. But let's keep to the facts here Travis. You also like to lie when you get on these threads. So let me say again I have more Apple devices than you and most of them work ok. I have a couple of devices that are plagued with issues which Apple has admitted to but won't warranty. I keep it honest yet for some reason you fanboys want to lie about silly things not worth lying about all to protect Apple. 

I can't wrap my head around that but it shows me what kind of person you are if your willing to lie about these things. I'd it that hard for you to accept Apple ain't the best by a long shot?


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> You should take that to the Apple Store. Something is wrong with it.



What makes you think that! Apple don't agree with you.


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## Xtrememtnbiker

Could you please quote my lies?


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> You are a funny man. For all the money you must have to spend on tools and yet you keep buying the same crappy products time and time again and never stop whining...



I don't keep buying the same crappy products so that's the first lie. I am still on my iPhone 5 and the 7's nearly out. 

I'm not whining I'm telling it as it is. It's you fanboys that are all upset because I say things about Apple which you don't like. My wife's iPhone has no issues yet you won't acknowledge that yet say I'm doing it time and time again so another lie. 

Why's it so hard for a fanboy to comprehend that Apple products have issues just like any other brand?


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## Xtrememtnbiker

:laughing:


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> :laughing:



Same old same old. Move along liar


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## Xtrememtnbiker

I acknowledge that your wife's phone has no issues.


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## TWhite

BCConstruction said:


> Steve jobs didn't know what he was talking about 95% of the time. Stealing a bunch of company's ideas and not paying them is nothing to boast about.
> 
> Remember when he said no body would want a phone bigger than the iPhone 4 and that Apple would not be making larger phones or smaller iPads.
> 
> Tony fadell played a away bigger part in making Apple as big as it is than jobs ever did. If it was not for him then the iPod or iPhone wouldn't even exist and it's thanks to the iPhone that sales of their desktops doubled almost overnight.
> 
> Jobs was just a face to the fanboys who needed a god to devote their life to.


Not so fast lameboy:

http://zurb.com/article/801/steve-jobs-and-xerox-the-truth-about-inno


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