# I want to know



## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

How many of you brick guys clean up completely when you finish? And I mean leave the job site clean of all brick not used, mortar splashed on the ground, all of it? 

I used the same mason for many years, and he always raked up the broken brick, and pretty much cleaned up his own mess...now he wouldn't touch anything that wasn't his, but he left no mess. 

My last regular crew was not as "tidy", but still not a big deal since we have to clean the job site anyway....but the last job was awful. Left broken brick everywhere, mortar piles all over, had to threaten them to come and acid wash, and then clipped me on the bid. 

I told them as I wrote the check I wasn't happy...they said it was now "extra" to clean up....really? 

So I old them to get lost, I would never use them again, ever. 

The guy who is the chief brickie called yesterday and said that he had a guy who wants me to build a house for him, and maybe we can patch things up? :no:

I asked if he had a short memory, told him to not call again, and hung up. 

Too much?


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Isn't clean up in the contract?


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Extra to clean up? Seriously?


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

CJKarl said:


> Isn't clean up in the contract?


This is Oklahoma, and while contracts are a part of business, I do not make my subs sign contracts, ever. Their word and mine are the relationship. 

I told him to pound sand when his word was discovered to be not good, and cleaned up his mess. He won't work for me or get a recommendation from me again, ever. 

His call yesterday tells me he has noticed.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

We never left a mess...ever. Daily clean up was routine, not just to keep other people happy, but because I hate tripping over junk all day. And seeing garbage laying around. I find it easier to tidy up everyday than to put it off until the job is done. And the HO/GC/Archy/whatever always appreciates a neat job site.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Joasis said:


> This is Oklahoma, and while contracts are a part of business, I do not make my subs sign contracts, ever. Their word and mine are the relationship.
> 
> I told him to pound sand when his word was discovered to be not good, and cleaned up his mess. He won't work for me or get a recommendation from me again, ever.
> 
> His call yesterday tells me he has noticed.


You sound angrier than I would be. I've had a few subs do similar things, and I just never bothered talking with them, just paid them and deleted their name from my contacts.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Joasis,

Sounds to me like he re-thought his actions and came back to patch things up and brought a gift to boot.

Relationships are a give and take in this business... When he said clean-up was extra, didn't you address it with him then?

I would have said that wasn't part of the agreement and that has always been part of everyone else you've done business with and has always been part of the bid... I would have reinforced it by saying to him *"imagine if I built a house and at the end, I then told the customer, sorry, clean-up is extra... how do you think they would react?"*...

Could've nipped it in the bud right there, and potentially have another house...


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

KAP said:


> Joasis,
> 
> Sounds to me like he re-thought his actions and came back to patch things up and brought a gift to boot.
> 
> ...


Unringing the bell is difficult to impossible, if it's a question of trust.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Great points.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

KAP said:


> Sounds to me like he re-thought his actions and came back to patch things up and brought a gift to boot.


You might have a point, but.....they should have known better. I hired this guy and his crew because their price was right and they do great work. Then the price creep started, and then started getting really sloppy. The last house I did not discuss price with him and he literally broke it off in me, about 6k more then what I had budgeted. And left the mess. He couldn't explain how he came up with his number, like so much per column, so much for the watercourse details, scaffolding 23 high on the gables, fireplace fascia......but it was like he hit me with a number that he needed...meaning he needed x amount of cash that day. 

He also promised to bring his guys over and do my outdoor patio and pizza oven for free...a gift for doing business. I told him to pound sand that day and I didn't need freebies, just honest jobs. I don't think he got the point.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Unringing the bell is difficult to impossible, if it's a question of trust.


Sometimes people need a swift dose of reality. It seems like there was a bit more to the conversation or relationship than was described, so I have to trust Joasis and his gut on this one.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Take the Job he offered you and sub the masonry work to someone else.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

The ground should be raked up quick, everything pulled off the house and put into reasonable piles. If the builder wants it wheeled off into a pile then fine, whatever makes people happy. I have never heard of wrapping a house in brick and not giving it a scrub down. Although if the bricks are "dusty" then they could come out clean without much effort, but still.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

CarpenterSFO said:


> You sound angrier than I would be. I've had a few subs do similar things, and I just never bothered talking with them, just paid them and deleted their name from my contacts.


Your way is my dads way. 

I am closer to Jays, I tell them why im running them off. I dont yell or whatever, and I doubt Jay does. I just dont not tell them why im running them off.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

KAP said:


> Joasis,
> 
> Sounds to me like he re-thought his actions and came back to patch things up and brought a gift to boot.
> 
> ...


Id sit and talk in this situation. Most of the time it fixes the issues. Or else ill run them off again :laughing:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> Take the Job he offered you and sub the masonry work to someone else.


You a cold sob, hoss. :laughing:


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

I leave every job cleaner,then when I found it. Even if I lost money on the job ,it's clean when I leave it. There's no reason not to clean.

All extra materials are neatly stored, scraps are neatly piled, and all of our personal trash is put in a bag and put on my truck every day.

If people are living in the house I'm working on, I haul off all of the waste and debris, rake the grass, and I even take my mixer home every day, and clean it at my shop.

Am I a clean freak? Yep....and my competition around here isn't! :thumbsup:

The people I work for have came to expect that. Last year, one of the contractors I've been doing work for 10 years, called me the day after I had completed the job and told me he saw some cigarette butts around the job site. ( I had one guy that would smoke a cigarette on his break) So I drive 45 minutes ...and found 2 butts!!!! :whistling

I picked them up and called him and thanked him for letting me know...I'm still doing his masonry work:laughing:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

brickhook said:


> I leave every job cleaner,then when I found it. Even if I lost money on the job ,it's clean when I leave it. There's no reason not to clean.
> 
> All extra materials are neatly stored, scraps are neatly piled, and all of our personal trash is put in a bag and put on my truck every day.
> 
> ...


Thats messed up. Call over a couple cigarette butts? Pick em up dude, and then let em know :laughing:

Our mason is the son of the mason who did my grandads masonry in the early 70s thru his retirement. This guy took his dads business over and blew it up, they have 40 guys. They clean up pretty good, and we haul off/ take care of what ever sand they dont take with them. Do they vacuum the mortar and rock chips up? No. But we dont expect or pay them too. Works for us. :thumbsup:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Amount of cleanup depends largely on whether it's on new construction or a reno. 

Reno of course everything is **** and span when we're done, often cleaner than when I get there, but new construction (or even substantial reno)is totally different. the ground I'm working on usually consist of gravel, and very roughly graded soil that often contains clean fill which masonry waste is. Cement bags and personal garbage get thrown in the dumpster promptly but the large masonry waste gets consolidated into piles and the small pieces (anything smaller than my fist) gets left where it is. I have never had a builder who complains or has even asked for anything else. 

Sometimes they will want all the masonry waste in one spot which isn't a problem but I definitely have no intention of taking that waste with me. If it was expected I would probably voice my confusion and displeasure about the need to, do it, and let them know that next time I'd add it to my bill

I do tidy everyday as part of house cleaning because I believe that large pieces of masonry are trip hazards and ankle twisters. And coke cans, sandwich wrappers that are just dropped on the ground aren't tolerated at all.

I should also add that almost every house that has masonry that I've done reno work on has masonry rubble in the soil about 6-8" down. Even many of the old houses...i did some work on a rubble foundation this summer and there was top soil, then mixed soil and rubble then sand. the brick was obviously from when the house was built at the turn of the century


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

JBM said:


> Although if the bricks are "dusty" then they could come out clean without much effort, but still.




Just for the sharing of information,if the reference to "dusty" bricks means sand on them as in wood molded,the bricks should be hosed off prior to laying,that sand also will compromise mortar bond between brick.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Kniggit said:


> This may come as a shock to you but the prices Joasis posted are a very premium price for here in the city area. There was a tract home builder here that ran an ad on craigslist earlier this year that was offering .265 a brick...


So ya gotta lay 1000 bricks to make 260 bucks 

weird as only the price of housing is cheaper,. Cell phones, food, trucks all cost the same. I dont get it.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

The cost of living here is cheaper, and you have to look at everything. Insurance on vehicles, housing (rent or owned), tax burdens, groceries....home utilities....all of it.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Boggles my mind how cleaning up your mess isn't included in what you do. You made the mess, you clean it up. Frickin' slobs.





Jaws said:


> I disagree if its not the arrangement with the GC.


:thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> I disagree if its not the arrangement with the GC.


BS. Only if the arrangement says it's on the GC then it's okay.

I'd still feel like a CKSKR for not cleaning up my mess. It didn't take that long to pick up after yourself. Take it to the dang dumpster on site.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> BS. Only if the arrangement says it's on the GC then it's okay.
> 
> I'd still feel like a CKSKR for not cleaning up my mess. It didn't take that long to pick up after yourself. Take it to the dang dumpster on site.


Dont get me wrong, im all about CAYG, and clean job sites. 

My point was, if the GC says to bid it without clean up because he has a clean up guy then it is bid with out it.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> BS. Only if the arrangement says it's on the GC then it's okay.
> 
> I'd still feel like a CKSKR for not cleaning up my mess. It didn't take that long to pick up after yourself. Take it to the dang dumpster on site.


On a bath reno ? That should take like two seconds !


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

blacktop said:


> On a bath reno ? That should take like two seconds !


Bath reno?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

blacktop said:


> On a bath reno ? That should take like two seconds !


Some do, some don't. What difference does it make how long it takes? If you made the mess clean it up. If you don't like cleaning it up find a new job.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Jaws said:


> Bath reno?


Well yeah ...Renovations . Ain't that Rob's specialty ?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Dont get me wrong, im all about CAYG, and clean job sites.
> 
> My point was, if the GC says to bid it without clean up because he has a clean up guy then it is bid with out it.


Sorry. Seemed like you were saying the opposite.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

blacktop said:


> Well yeah ...Renovations . Ain't that Rob's specialty ?


Mine too. Just thought you were referring to something in the thread I couldn't find. 

On small jobs we dont sub anything but MEPs usually, I have an in house painter/drywall guy for those and cabinet finishes.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

blacktop said:


> Well yeah ...Renovations . Ain't that Rob's specialty ?


Kitchens, bathrooms, basements....remodeling... but I'm not sure I understand your point.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

oops ..... Looks like I pissed off the reno guys!!!!



my bad!:blink:


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> If you don't like cleaning it up find a new job.


....or have someone else do it for you..............


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Kitchens, bathrooms, basements....remodeling... but I'm not sure I understand your point.


His point is that this isn't a question about cleaning up after a reno....it's cleaning up after a new build. With masonry waste they are totally different situations. Reno, house is often occupied, landscaping is still mostly intact the neighbouring houses are also occupied. New construction the site is largely still torn up, there are areas that still need fill, brick and mortar waste can just be plowed into the ground or thrown wherever it's needed. Landscaper or site prep will be around once all the staging is gone to finish grading and spread top soil so what is the purpose so long as the waste is orderly


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

blacktop said:


> oops ..... Looks like I pissed off the reno guys!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> my bad!:blink:


Didn't piss me off. Just confused me. :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> His point is that this isn't a question about cleaning up after a reno....it's cleaning up after a new build. With masonry waste they are totally different situations. Reno, house is often occupied, landscaping is still mostly intact the neighbouring houses are also occupied. New construction the site is largely still torn up, there are areas that still need fill, brick and mortar waste can just be plowed into the ground or thrown wherever it's needed. Landscaper or site prep will be around once all the staging is gone to finish grading and spread top soil so what is the purpose so long as the waste is orderly


Funny though some guys say they do it.

And I hate the lazy ass contractor who plows that crap into the ground. 

Just because I currently do remodeling doesn't mean that I have never been on a new construction site. Before doing this I was a low voltage contractor. I have been on dozens and dozens of new constitution builds. All of which were in Chicago. All of which were brick and stone exteriors. All of which the mason changed up after themselves. Staging your piles and mess is key.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Kniggit said:


> ....or have someone else do it for you..............


Same thing. If you are having someone do it for you...you are having it done. That's not the topic.

As Jaws pointed out, and I agree, the GC will provide a clean up guy or crew.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

blacktop said:


> oops ..... Looks like I pissed off the reno guys!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> my bad!:blink:


Not pissed here either.


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

I always make try to leave a job cleaner than when I got there. If you're a pig on your site then don't expect any better from me. Also chances are I won't be working for you again either! I hate messy sites!


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> This is where this discussion began. You saying that you hate the LAZY contractor that plows that CRAP into the ground
> 
> In another post Joasis explained that he wasn't talking about a complete cleanup and material removal but just the typical piling of scraps and basic raking...I then said that I misunderstood but that didn't clarify why someone who plows masonry waste into the ground is lazy and worthy of your hate
> 
> ...


My definition of crap not yours.

And the conversation started way before and it wasn't just about fill.

Problem is you inserted your experience into my statement. I have repeatedly said that I have found much larger debris than you describe. That is lazy. Not cleaning up after yourself is lazy.

Go back and read the thread, before your fill comment, its all there. I said that if the arrangement is to pile up it's okay. But the OP wasn't about piling up but leaving it a mess. I know you desperately want to win this but we are seeing the same thing. There nothing to win here, move along.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Oh my!!:blink:


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Hold it right there, lit me git ma pop corn.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> My definition of crap not yours.
> 
> And the conversation started way never that just not about fill.
> 
> ...


I would say the exact opposite. You are using your experience and making a broad statement. You can use full bricks very well as clean fill in the right place and placed properly. But you decided to paint anyone who uses clean fill with one brush. Quantify your statements next time. Finding large pieces of debris in the ground is not a sign of a lazy contractor...or maybe you sift through and pick up all stones out of your excavation material. While there shouldn't be any large stones close to the foundation or within perhaps 1' of finished grade it does nothing below that so long as the fill has been settled


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

blacktop said:


> Oh my!!:blink:


yeah well I don't like anyone insinuating that I'm lazy or an excuse maker. not my nature


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

dom-mas said:


> That's why I mentioned vacuuming inside the walls (which I still don't quite believe. ..


I've worked on thousands of new homes ..I've never seen It done!


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

As to the vacuuming inside the walls before pest control or insulation, we always have and do. Im about to insulate a whole house remodel tomorrow, or the insulation guy is. Ill see if I get over there before and take some pictures for you. 

My god some people are lazy, a 3000 sq ft house doesnt take long with a regular old shop vac. Even the lower end builders I worked for did it. I doubt the tract guys I trimmed for later did, but the other builders I worked for did.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> yeah well I don't like anyone insinuating that I'm lazy or an excuse maker. not my nature


The comment want directed at you. If you feel guilty about something don't blame me. It's lazy just to just plow EVERYTHING into the ground.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> My definition of crap not yours.
> 
> And the conversation started way never that just not about fill.
> 
> ...


Can you translate this please?????


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

What puzzles me is you say the builder plows it in not you. So I didn't insinuate anything about you.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

jomama said:


> Can you translate this please?????


Why? You don't need to know any more than you already do. Dom got it and responded. Move along troll.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Why? You don't need to know any more than you already do. Dom got it and responded. Move along troll.


OMG, dude. I cant stop laughing reading some of your responses. :laughing: Are you trying to be combative? What did that dude say to set you off on him? :laughing::no:


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

I missed this whole thread but it looks like it could be a doozy.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Why? You don't need to know any more than you already do. Dom got it and responded. Move along troll.


It's only 7:30 and it appears you've had enough to drink already. It may be time for you to log off for the evening...........


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

jomama said:


> It's only 7:30 and it appears you've had enough to drink already. It may be time for you to log off for the evening...........


I need to be told this on occasion !! :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> OMG, dude. I cant stop laughing reading some of your responses. :laughing: Are you trying to be combative? What did that dude say to set you off on him? :laughing::no:


Nah, just playing around and having fun. It was sarcastic.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Jaws said:


> OMG, dude. I cant stop laughing reading some of your responses. :laughing: Are you trying to be combative? What did that dude say to set you off on him? :laughing::no:


I think he misses Matt so he is taking on anyone who will rassle with him :thumbup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

jomama said:


> It's only 7:30 and it appears you've had enough to drink already. It may be time for you to log off for the evening...........


I actually just walked in the door. Finished up on the job around 5, met my wife at her work, took her to the doctor, grabbed some grub with her and headed home. I am this pleasant and entertaining without booze. Imagine what I would be like if I had!


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

JBM said:


> I think he misses Matt so he is taking on anyone who will rassle with him :thumbup:


Actually I was having a conversation with Blacktop and Dom chimed in. He hopped on the mat and said "Bring it on!"


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Actually I was having a conversation with Blacktop and Dom chimed in. He hopped on the mat and said "Bring it on!"


Your a trip mang!


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Don't see much brick work around here so not much to comment on that end but I most certainly vacuum every stud bay before insulating.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

shanekw1 said:


> Don't see much brick work around here so not much to comment on that end but I most certainly vacuum every stud bay before insulating.


 I don't do interior work, can someone please tell me why you vacuum ?


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

WBailey1041 said:


> I don't do interior work, can someone please tell me why you vacuum ?


It is easier than sweeping.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

WBailey1041 said:


> I don't do interior work, can someone please tell me why you vacuum ?


 Sweeping just throws dirt in the air, then it comes back down and it looks like you didn't do anything


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

jlsconstruction said:


> Sweeping just throws first in the air, then it comes back down and it looks like you didn't do anything


 I meant stud bays. Jesus you must think I'm retarded.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

WBailey1041 said:


> I don't do interior work, can someone please tell me why you vacuum ?


Have ever seen the mess a D/C Can leave behind?:laughing:


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

WBailey1041 said:


> I meant stud bays. Jesus you must think I'm retarded.



I just think it's good practice, no reason other than I would want a contractor to clean it, I've been in trac houses where they used the heat ducts as trash cans.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

WBailey1041 said:


> I meant stud bays. Jesus you must think I'm retarded.


Why would I close dust and wood shavings up in my build? Might as well leave trash in the attic or the crawl space.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

For one it can harbor pests. It's bad for allergies. Creates voids that cause energy leaks. It's also just lazy not to....heheheh. I do it because when I first start playing around with remodeling at 16 I thought it was disgusting to open a wall and a bunch of junk and trash fall out.

Today it just says I care. I care about what is seen and unseen. Why does a plumber care to wipe a pipe if it's going to be covered with drywall and not seen for decades?


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

You mean cutting up drywall into 12" rips and burying it in the wall doesn't add r-value to a house?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Ok so you guys vacuum out the stud bays of walls that will be insulated,(I've only seen removal of junk and sweeping of sawdust) what about the ones that aren't insulated? What about after the board goes up and the rotozip dumps a bunch of dust in the wall cavity? Do you remove the board and vacuum? Do you wipe down the inside of the walls with a damp cloth to remove all the dust? 

If no to any of those why not? Lazy?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> The comment want directed at you. If you feel guilty about something don't blame me. It's lazy just to just plow EVERYTHING into the ground.


No feelings of guilt. 



TNTSERVICES said:


> What puzzles me is you say the builder plows it in not you. So I didn't insinuate anything about you.


Yes some builders do (many of them are friends and family, and I respect them so I'm defending their lack of laziness as well) I have also used my rubble as fill behind retaining walls, so yes it was directed at me. You also called the material "crap" which I did and still do maintain it isn't. You then said that masonry rubble was not a good fill material (ridiculous)and it left voids, again, a silly statement. Using almost any fill material improperly can leave voids. 


TNTSERVICES said:


> Actually I was having a conversation with Blacktop and Dom chimed in. He hopped on the mat and said "Bring it on!"


You directly quoted me, so yes I responded


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Ok so you guys vacuum out the stud bays of walls that will be insulated,(I've only seen removal of junk and sweeping of sawdust) what about the ones that aren't insulated? What about after the board goes up and the rotozip dumps a bunch of dust in the wall cavity? Do you remove the board and vacuum? Do you wipe down the inside of the walls with a damp cloth to remove all the dust?
> 
> If no to any of those why not? Lazy?


Now who's gasping? 

All bays are vacuumed. I vacuum the floors. As far as after the wall is closed there isn't really any way to clean it up. With that said my rotozip has dust collection. So I do everything I can to eliminate and reduce my mess.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> No feelings of guilt.
> 
> Yes some builders do (many of them are friends and family, and I respect them so I'm defending their lack of laziness as well) I have also used my rubble as fill behind retaining walls, so yes it was directed at me. You also called the material "crap" which I did and still do maintain it isn't. You then said that masonry rubble was not a good fill material (ridiculous)and it left voids, again, a silly statement. Using almost any fill material improperly can leave voids.
> 
> You directly quoted me, so yes I responded


You werer defending yourself. You said that you didn't like someone insinuating that YOU were lazy. Nice try though.

I agree that using the full material improperly leaves voids. The guy plowing the crap into the yard didn't care what happens 5-10 siren the road. You are kidding yourself if you think they do.


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## Nick520 (May 2, 2013)

You hAve a whole lot of issues with this whole fill thing. Should probably go on the site work portion of this site and start arguing with them


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You wetter defending yourself. You said that you didn't like someone insinuating that YOU were lazy. Nice try though.
> 
> I agree that using the full material improperly leaves voids. The guy plowing the crap into the yard didn't care what happens 5-10 siren the road. You are kidding yourself if you think they do.


did you even read my post?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Nick520 said:


> You hAve a whole lot of issues with this whole fill thing. Should probably go on the site work portion of this site and start arguing with them


Who? I actually don't have a huge issue. Dom got his panties all in a bunch. And is the one gasping.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> did you even read my post?


Yes why? You originally said the you didn't like me insinuating the you were lazy. You stated that it was the builder who had the agreement with you that they plow it in. So I wasn't insinuating anything about you. And since I have established numerous times that it's larger debris (crap) that I have real issues with there isn't anything more to discuss. Unless you just want to continue to beat a dead horse. 

Just to make it clear.

1) If you don't pick up after yourself (neat piles are in fact picking up after yourself). You are lazy. 

2) If the pieces are smaller than half a brick I wouldn't have much of an issue with that being fill. My point was it doesn't stop there. They plow tons if junk that shouldn't be plowed. 

3) If you use the excuse that it would take too much time or be too expensive to pick up after yourself you are making excuses to be lazy. 

4) Agreements that include the GC providing a labor to clean up is not lazy. But throwing you crap everywhere because he does provide clean up, is lazy.

Any questions?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> And is the one gasping.


If you mean grasping, your right, in fact it was a ridiculous comment, meant to illustrate the ridiculousness of other comments.

Glad you finally quantified what you meant rather than just throwing out generalities. (and I mentioned in that other post about how I often use my rubble as fill in behind retaining walls that I have built, so yes you were insinuating taht i was lazy for doing so)


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> If you mean grasping, your right, in fact it was a ridiculous comment, meant to illustrate the ridiculousness of other comments.
> 
> Glad you finally quantified what you meant rather than just throwing out generalities. (and I mentioned in that other post about how I often use my rubble as fill in behind retaining walls that I have built, so yes you were insinuating taht i was lazy for doing so)


Only if you used large debris as I have stated numerous times. 

I decided to put it all in one place instead of going back and quoting myself from the entire thread. There is no new or better explained information, just now all in one location.

I'm glad you finally found a example if your own doing that got you of the hook. Only took the better part of a day.


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## Nick520 (May 2, 2013)

There are homes and many of them, built in the late 1700's and early 1800's in the United States. Your books regarding Chicago fires are not the tell all book of masonry in the USA. 

It's becoming pretty funny to see how stubborn you are. Perhaps part of the reason you have trouble with your subs...


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Nick520 said:


> There are homes and many of them, built in the late 1700's and early 1800's in the United States. Your books regarding Chicago fires are not the tell all book of masonry in the USA.
> 
> It's becoming pretty funny to see how stubborn you are. Perhaps part of the reason you have trouble with your subs...


Again, I never said that it wasn't used. But it wasn't widely used until after WWII in residential construction

It's sad that not only do you not read about the history of your own trade but you don't even read what I have said. I have never said I have trouble with my subs. In fact it's quite the opposite.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> With the client base I had up there, keeping a clean site is pretty much not optional...if you want repeat business. True, I didn't do as much new construction, but even on those sites, we were neater than most. On the new home sites, there was a container that we could use for debris like mortar bags, pallets etc...and hard debris like mortar clean out, stone chips, broken block etc were either taken to the dump or we made arrangements with the GC to pile it up for them to haul off or bury later.
> 
> I didn't want to make a byproduct of my job someone else's problem, unless it wasn't one for them to leave our rubble.


Your practise and mine are the same.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Again, I never said that it wasn't used. But it wasn't widely used until after WWII in residential construction.


That would depend on what region you are in. Everywhere in New England you are going to find a lot of pre-19th century homes that used brick as a primary construction material, especially near rivers where clay was often dug and used to make bricks onsite. My last New England project was at such a home...the entire thing was constructed of handmade brick, not only the fireplaces or the foundation. The home is late 18th century.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

It must be something in his nature. 

To say that something isn't common because it wasn't on the face of a typical house is silly. And you do know that masonry waste isn't limited to brick right?

I just can't do this anymore. it's like when he argued with me about how the dictionary was wrong because it didn't agree with what he said. It's just ridiculous. I'm done


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

stonecutter said:


> That would depend on what region you are in. Everywhere in New England you are going to find a lot of pre-19th century homes that used brick as a primary construction material, especially near rivers where clay was often dug and used to make bricks onsite. My last New England project was at such a home...the entire thing was constructed of handmade brick, not only the fireplaces or the foundation. The home is late 18th century.


Again I'm not saying that there were no brick homes, or pockets of brick homes, but the vast majority were wood. The cape cod is a perfect example.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> It must be something in his nature.
> 
> To say that something isn't common because it wasn't on the face of a typical house is silly. And you do know that masonry waste isn't limited to brick right?
> 
> I just can't do this anymore. it's like when he argued with me about how the dictionary was wrong because it didn't agree with what he said. It's just ridiculous. I'm done


Brick was the subject, but read my posts, I have said masonry a few times. It was said that bricks gave been used as fill for centuries. That's what I had issue with. Most homes were not brick before the industrial revolution. It just wasn't cheap enough.

As for the dictionary the definition you speak of want debated, it was context.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> It must be something in his nature.
> 
> To say that something isn't common because it wasn't on the face of a typical house is silly. And you do know that masonry waste isn't limited to brick right?
> 
> I just can't do this anymore. it's like when he argued with me about how the dictionary was wrong because it didn't agree with what he said. It's just ridiculous. I'm done


and TNT outlasts another competitor!

your T shirt is in the mail. 

"I argued with TNT and all I got was the lousy T-shirt"


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Nick520 said:


> Actually seems pretty cut and dry. Masonry has been used as a fill material for centuries. If TNT can't dig a little sonatube or plant his hostas or roses he should hire some help or a mini x.
> 
> If the fill is in your way seems more along the lines of fault on the site guys job than the mason





TNTSERVICES said:


> Centuries? Brick hasn't been a common building material for homes for that long. Heck most commercial buildings were wood. The Chicago fire comes to mind. Decades maybe, but not centuries, at least as a common material used as it has been for the past 60-70 years in residential construction.
> 
> I believe it's actually illegal to bury construction debris in Georgia due to all the problems it created.
> 
> The question is why? Because it's cheaper? I just don't think that filling a yard with brick is the best way to leave a site, regardless of how long it's been done. The length of time a practice has been in use doesn't necessary prove its the best practice.





TNTSERVICES said:


> . It was said that bricks gave been used as fill for centuries. That's what I had issue with. Most homes were not brick before the industrial revolution. It just wasn't cheap enough.
> 
> As for the dictionary the definition you speak of want debated, it was context.


You don't remember what happened today, let alone what happened months ago. the debate over the dictionary had nothing to do with context. Someone said Mike Holmes was a hypocrite for not practising what he preached and you said that was inconsistent, not hypocritical. I linked Webster which proved you wrong and you said that dictionaries weren't the final word. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3_ww66EeN8


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Just had to come back for that. HAD TO


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Dom... So I'm just supposed to roll over because some guy on the internet said I'm wrong? No one had provided anything that remotely backs up the claim that brick debris had been thrown in the yard fill for centuries. Why? Because it's just not true. That's why I said that brick want a common building material... and then clarified it by meaning widely used. It was only used when it could be afforded. And even then with out modern gas powered excavation equipment I just don't buy that it was the common practice. It's more likely that the waste was used for another purpose.

The biggest reason they use it as full is cost. It's cheaper to plow it under than hall it away. It's just not feasible that they would just toss the waste in a yard 100 years ago. They would have put it to use.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> You don't remember what happened today, let alone what happened months ago. the debate over the dictionary had nothing to do with context. Someone said Mike Holmes was a hypocrite for not practising what he preached and you said that was inconsistent, not hypocritical. I linked Webster which proved you wrong and you said that dictionaries weren't the final word.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3_ww66EeN8


I thought you were done with me. Why is it that the guys who whine the most about me are just as bad? I guess if you are the first to say the other guy likes to argue you are of the hook.

As for the dictionary I never said it wasn't the final word. Again context is king. I disagreed with your interpretation. But yea I forgot the details. It was obviously a much bigger deal to you than me.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)




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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Centuries? Brick hasn't been a common building material for homes for that long. Heck most commercial buildings were wood. The Chicago fire comes to mind. Decades maybe, but not centuries, at least as a common material used as it has been for the past 60-70 years in residential construction.





TNTSERVICES said:


> Again I'm not saying that there were no brick homes, or pockets of brick homes, but the vast majority were wood. The cape cod is a perfect example.


My post was simply directed to your original comment above, in which you said that brick was not a common building material for centuries in residential construction in this country. Physical evidence says it has. Having been onsite during many renovations and expasions of pre-19th century homes, I can tell you that there was indeed brick rubble fill found in sections next to the home and on the property.


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## Nick520 (May 2, 2013)

Wouldn't any home from the 17-1800s have a chimney or did they just light campfires on the living room floor to stay warm in januaru


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

stonecutter said:


> With the client base I had up there, keeping a clean site is pretty much not optional...if you want repeat business. True, I didn't do as much new construction, but even on those sites, we were neater than most. On the new home sites, there was a container that we could use for debris like mortar bags, pallets etc...and hard debris like mortar clean out, stone chips, broken block etc were either taken to the dump or we made arrangements with the GC to pile it up for them to haul off or bury later.
> 
> I didn't want to make a byproduct of my job someone else's problem, unless it wasn't one for them to leave our rubble.


That's how it works here . The mason showed up today for clean up . I never really gave a chit till I found this thread..But I Watched today.

He spent a good two hours on the bob cat . He placed all left over materials at the end of the drive.. Put the pallets and bags in the dump trailer ..Back filled up to the foundation then spread straw.

There were a few brick chips left In the yard , But the site was littered with stones/rocks the size of my fist and bigger ...Are the masons supposed to pick them up too?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

blacktop said:


> That's how it works here . The mason showed up today for clean up . I never really gave a chit till I found this thread..But I Watched today.
> 
> He spent a good two hours on the bob cat . He placed all left over materials at the end of the drive.. Put the pallets and bags in the dump trailer ..Back filled up to the foundation then spread straw.
> 
> There were a few brick chips left In the yard , But the site was littered with stones/rocks the size of my fist and bigger ...Are the masons supposed to pick them up too?


Not here. Fine grade at the end of the job for us.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

fist sized (sometimes apple sized) has always been the unit of measurement that I've used


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Jaws said:


> Not here. Fine grade at the end of the job for us.


I was just talking about the masons clean up . The builder may not do the final grade for weeks . Or another month for all I know! Hell !! I got paid ! I don't really care!

I'll say this tho...Between me and the mason ..They better have one hoss of a truck to pull that dump trailer off!!!


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

blacktop said:


> I was just talking about the masons clean up . The builder may not do the final grade for weeks . Or another month for all I know! Hell !! I got paid ! I don't really care!


If the site is free of liter and debris, and the materials are stacked, covered and staged properly, it doesnt bother me. We take care of the rest when I get a skid steer back for the driveway and flat work. On an addition or new build, they dont clean up as well and I dont expect them too. On renovations they clean up a little better, the fine tuning is on us.


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