# Is it legal to hold equipment on a nonpay?



## bdog1234 (Feb 25, 2008)

I got involved in a joint venture of sorts. A client wanted me to do some jobs for him that required some pricey specialized equipment. The client bought the equipment and we did the work for him at a discount rate, and then I also used the equipment on other jobs and paid them rent for using it. It worked well for a couple years but things have slowed down now and the client decided he wants the equipment back and is going to try and do his jobs himself. I am ok with that. This client always paid us on time but the last two invoices are unpaid, one 90 days and the other about 30. Everytime I ask him about the invoices he says he will take care of it soon but he has not. My question is can I hold onto his equipment until he pays me? I fear if I give it back to him I will never see my money. I just want to know where the law is on this. I think he wants to come get his equipment next week and when he calls I was going to tell him bring my check and you can get it but I know that will turn our somewhat still friendly relationship hostile and I want to make know what my legal rights are.


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## Addon Builders (Jan 20, 2010)

*hmm*

Well possession is Nine tenths of the law. I'd be upfront with the guy. You pay me what you owe and you have your equipment back.

Jason


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

I'm sure legally it varies by jurisdiction, but he is the legal owner of the equipment and can take it as he wishes.

You _could_ try and use the fact that you are in possession of the equipment as leverage, but in reality the fact that he owes you money, and you have his machinery are unrelated.

He _could_ have you arrested for theft.

Just my nickel.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

I had a sub try that one time. He spent the weekend in jail. 

Do you want to risk it?

By the way, the sub was not living up to the terms of our agreement.

I believe that if the equipment is his and you refuse to return it, you are skating on thin ice. 

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear but...


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

Sounds like a question for judge Judy


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

One of our subs used our power auger. He was crazy to begin with, but then he tried to hold us up for an extra $500 on a job over and above the agreed (and paid) price.
Anyway, he came to our office and after over an hour of arguing and screaming, we caled the police to get him off the property. They came, and I calmly told the story and even pointed to the auger, which was clearly visible through the windows of the installer's van. 
Apparently, if you lend someone something for an unspecifed period of time, without a written agreement, then, in the wors of the police officer, it's "a civil matter". In other words, though the auger was right there, I had no right to take it back unless I took the worker to small claims court.
I don't lend anything out any more.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

I'd tell the guy you lost the keys to the building it's stored in and you can't afford a locksmith until you are paid in full.:thumbsup:


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

tgeb said:


> I'm sure legally it varies by jurisdiction, but he is the legal owner of the equipment and can take it as he wishes.
> 
> You _could_ try and use the fact that you are in possession of the equipment as leverage, but in reality the fact that he owes you money, and you have his machinery are unrelated.
> 
> ...


 
No I don't think he can be arrested. This is a civil matter, not criminal. There's a verbal rental agreement (contract). He would have to take him to civil court in which case he can counter claim the unpaid invoices


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## solarguy (Feb 14, 2010)

Stealing is borrowing without permission. You had permission. It's a civil matter.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

bdog1234 said:


> I got involved in a joint venture of sorts. A client wanted me to do some jobs for him that required some pricey specialized equipment. *The client bought the equipment* and we did the work for him at a discount rate, and then I also used the equipment on other jobs and paid them rent for using it. It worked well for a couple years but things have slowed down now and the client decided he wants the equipment back and is going to try and do his jobs himself. I am ok with that. This client always paid us on time but the last two invoices are unpaid, one 90 days and the other about 30. Everytime I ask him about the invoices he says he will take care of it soon but he has not. My question is can I hold onto his equipment until he pays me? I fear if I give it back to him I will never see my money. I just want to know where the law is on this. *I think he wants to come get his equipment next week and when he calls I was going to tell him bring my check and you can get it* but I know that will turn our somewhat still friendly relationship hostile and I want to make know what my legal rights are.


The equipment does not belong to you, if you don't give it back you can be charged with theft.

Trying to get him to give you money that he owes you to get back his equipment is extortion.


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

bwalley said:


> The equipment does not belong to you, if you don't give it back you can be charged with theft.
> 
> Trying to get him to give you money that he owes you to get back his equipment is extortion.


 :no:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

buddy110 said:


> No I don't think he can be arrested. This is a civil matter, not criminal. There's a verbal rental agreement (contract). He would have to take him to civil court in which case he can counter claim the unpaid invoices


Theft and extortion are criminal matters.


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

bwalley said:


> Theft and extortion are criminal matters.


 Yes, but in this case it's neither, there is clearly a verbal contract. I.E. civil, not criminal


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

buddy110 said:


> Yes, but in this case it's neither, there is clearly a verbal contract. I.E. civil, not criminal


Wrong, 

The person who paid for and owns the equipment wants it back.

The guy in posession of the equipment is committing two felonies by not allowing the owner of the equipment to pick it up and trying to make him pay him money to get his property back.

The overdue invoice is a civil matter.

Grand theft and extortion are criminal matters.

If he does not give the equipment back he should get arrested and deserves whatever happens to him.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

This is no different than a customer firing you while you still have your tools on the jobsite and not allowing you to pick them up.

The legal term is _mitigation of damages_. Possession don't enter into the equation.


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

bwalley said:


> Wrong,
> 
> The person who paid for and owns the equipment wants it back.
> 
> ...


 
Hmmm. By your logic you can be arrested for not making a car payment. Verbal contracts are as enforceable as written ones. This is purely civil


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

480sparky said:


> This is no different than a customer firing you while you still have your tools on the jobsite and not allowing you to pick them up.
> 
> The legal term is _mitigation of damages_. Possession don't enter into the equation.


Except that in this case the person has been granted permission to use the equiptment off site. That constitutes a civil agreement. Civil agreements are under civil jurisdiction


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

buddy110 said:


> Except that in this case the person has been granted permission to use the equiptment off site. That constitutes a civil agreement. Civil agreements are under civil jurisdiction


If you borrow something and you refuse to return it when asked, it is theft.

When you demand money to give someone back something they already own it is extortion.

Both of these are felonies.



being late or non payment of an invoice is a civil matter.


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

bwalley said:


> If you borrow something and you refuse to return it when asked, it is theft.
> 
> When you demand money to give someone back something they already own it is extortion.
> 
> ...


 
This is also a civil matter. he was given permission to use it. There was a verbal contract to this affect. In order to prosecute for theft he would have to take something without permission. In this case he was given the property willingly. Anyone with ANY legal knoledge will confirm this. 

Nuff said


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

buddy110 said:


> Except that in this case the person has been granted permission to use the equiptment off site. That constitutes a civil agreement. Civil agreements are under civil jurisdiction


Yes. And now the agreement has been cancelled by one of the parties involved. It is his stuff and the OP is required to engage in this _mitigation of damages_.

Let's say one of your customers, for whatever reason, calls you up this weekend and says, 'Listen, I got home last night and the work you did Friday was crap! You're done, mister. And I'm keeping the tools you have in my garage as damages!" I doubt you have either a written or a verbal agreement that he would be allowed to keep your tools. This would be where _mitigation of damages_ (aka _minimumization of damages_ or _avoidable consequences_) would apply.

Even if he allows you to come pick up your tools, he cannot legally throw them out on the curb either.


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## Dnkldorf (Dec 27, 2005)

bwalley said:


> Criminal if he refuses to return equipment that does not belong to him.


First he has to be taken to court. If they got involved at all, then I suspect the courts would tell you to give it back, and that takes time.
Then there would be the whole "scheduling problem" that would prelude me from dropping your equipment off. I'd let you know 5 minutes before we are to meet that I can't make it today.....sorry.....we'll try next week when I get back from vacation or something. You'd have call the cops again, and we'd start over. It wouldn't cost me anything but an appearance or two at court.

How much would the run-around cost him in time and lawyers?

Sure it's his equipment, and he will get it back eventually, but make it cost him for refusing to pay you.


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## bdog1234 (Feb 25, 2008)

bwalley said:


> Criminal if he refuses to return equipment that does not belong to him.


Regardless of the circumstances? The owner essentially owes me for repairs done to his equipment, the equipment that I have in my shop. 

Can a car dealer or the like not refuse to release your car to them until you pay what is owed? Could you drop your lawn mower off for repairs then go pick it up without paying and if they say no call the cops and have them arrested for stealing it? That is not the exact scenario here but we do have in writing that I will store the equipment and repair it as needed and he will pay for the repairs. I repaired it (paid to have it repaired) and he did not pay. 

I can see it being illegal if someone owed me money and I just went to their house and took something random for collateral but that is not really the case here.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

bdog1234 said:


> Regardless of the circumstances? The owner essentially owes me for repairs done to his equipment, the equipment that I have in my shop.
> 
> Can a car dealer or the like not refuse to release your car to them until you pay what is owed? Could you drop your lawn mower off for repairs then go pick it up without paying and if they say no call the cops and have them arrested for stealing it? That is not the exact scenario here but we do have in writing that I will store the equipment and repair it as needed and he will pay for the repairs. I repaired it (paid to have it repaired) and he did not pay.
> 
> I can see it being illegal if someone owed me money and I just went to their house and took something random for collateral but that is not really the case here.


If you drop your car off for repairs and then dispute the charges, you can post a bond with the court in the amount of the repairs and then you get your car.

In this case you are using his equipment and had it repaired by another person and are billing the owner of the company.

Non payment of the repairs is a civil matter, keeping equipment that does not belong to you is criminal.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> First he has to be taken to court. If they got involved at all, then I suspect the courts would tell you to give it back, and that takes time.
> *Then there would be the whole "scheduling problem" that would prelude me from dropping your equipment off. I'd let you know 5 minutes before we are to meet that I can't make it today.....sorry.....we'll try next week when I get back from vacation or something. You'd have call the cops again, and we'd start over. It wouldn't cost me anything but an appearance or two at court.*
> 
> *How much would the run-around cost him in time and lawyers?*
> ...


I am sure the owner of the equipment is sorry he ever worked a deal with you when you want to jack the guy around like this.

Plus when you get charged criminally you would deserve what you got.


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## tbronson (Feb 22, 2010)

Disclaimer: This posting should not be considered legal advice. I nor my friend whom I spoke to is offering any form of legal advice or representation of services of a licensed attorney at law in your or any other State.

For giggles I ran this by a ADA friend of mine. In Los Angeles County it would be up to the Riding DA as to filing it or not. Its a grey area because of the contract. He said it would most likely not get filed and further more the police would also not want to be bothered and claim that it was a civil matter because it would be less work for them on something that looks like it would get tossed once it hit court and that the DA wouldn't file on in the first place which would make them look bad. 

He also said you could make a case in civil court for a mechanic's lien as well as withholding return of property pending payment for repairs. You would have to prove that the damages occurred in his use of the equipment per the contract terms and that he had you do the repairs instead of him doing them.

Either way you are looking at civil court other than small claims because of the amount owed.


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