# Apple Verses PC?



## Trim-man

It seems it's time for some computer upgrades/replacement. I have been considering going the Apple route this time. Any input from current Apple users would be greatly appriciated. Of course the guy at the Apple store says they're the best................


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## hardscrabble

Go Mac they have fewer problems with viruses and worms. I got tired of replacing or having my PC fixed and upgrading the security protection. Best move ever.


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## Anderson

I have a mac and it is terrible finding basic software for construction. I am pretty sure you can have your mac set up to run windows programs too. I have just not bothered, I am going back to a PC.


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## G&J

I run both and as far as I'm concerned Apple rules. I have a Dell laptop, a Gateway Desktop on the PC side. A Mac G4 desktop and a new MacPro laptop. 

here's an Apple story that happened to me 2 weeks ago.

I purchased an Apple Macpro laptop less than a month ago last week it started to give me grief ejecting Cds. I called Apple tech at 4:00 pm, I was on with a live person in less than 90 seconds. I described the problem and was asked if I wanted to take it to be repaired and I said yes. The tech booked an appointment for me at the Apple Store for 4:50 pm. i just made it to the store on time. I waited 2-3 minutes for a tech and presented my problem the tech told me there was a short fix that he could try to do inhouse or a long fix reordering a new drive. I said try the short fix. He brought my laptop back and I was leaving the store at 5:05pm.

I was pretty impressed with this. 

Having experience with both systems this is the way I would explain them

If you like to get into your computer and change things and make it run YOUR way, if you're a computer "geek". _I use the term "geek" to describe someone who knows a lot more about the internal workings of a computer than I do. _Then I suggest a PC.

If you want a computer to do what you want as simply as possible, like any other top line tool, then I suggest Apple.

Hope this helps.


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## AFOREMA1

I prefer the pc route seems to be more software and in my opinion ease of use. Not to mention the outrages prices they want for a comparable Apple platform just not worth it to me. Now if I was doing mostly design work I would go all out and pay the crazy high apple prices.:thumbup:


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## moorewarner

There are reasons people choose Apple and reasons folks choose Windows.

But there is a third choice as well that everyone should at least be aware of, Linux.

The specific version of Linux I am going to bring up is Ubuntu/Linux.

http://www.ubuntu.com/

All three choices have their advantages and disadvantages, which is best depends on your comfort level with computers and what software you want to use.

Some reasons to consider Ubuntu/Linux.

1) Linux is safe and stable. Just like Apples OSX Linux has almost no viruses or spyware, no need to run any of that type of software.

2) Linux is incredibly powerful and flexible. Linux runs the majority of the worlds most powerful super computers (it runs almost all of the top ten). It is also the new android OS thet Google is coming out with for smart phones, as well as what runs Tivo and a host of other gadgets. Linux runs a majority of the Web as well, it is probably the most advanced of the three OS's.

3) Linux is cheap. Beyond cheap, Linux is actually free. You can legally run your computer, your business, your whole country for free. Linux is what's called Free or Open Source Software (FOSS).

3) Linux runs on just about anything. Linux runs on the same hardware that you would run Windows on. It will run on Apple computers. It will run on the computer you are getting ready to get rid of, and may run so well it will feel like a new computer (great to pass on to your kids).

4) Linux comes with thousands of free applications. Whatever you are trying to do there are several choices of FOSS application to get it done. The FOSS environment produces Open Office, Firefox, Eclipse, Aptana to name just a few.

5) Linux can run Windows and Widows applications. Just like Apple's Boot Camp if you have a Windows application you need to run you can run that application on Windows inside of Linux (that is how I run CAD, Quickbooks, and Adobe software). There are may advantages to running Windows this way. Another way to run Windows applications is through an application called WINE (how I run Sketchup & Cost Estimator), between the two you can run any Windows software you want.

In many ways Ubuntu/Linux is better than either Windows or Apple OSX and in a few ways it is still catching up. But the fact is you can go to that link above and download it for free and try it on your computer for yourself. The download is what they call a "Live CD" which means you download and burn the ".iso" image to a CD, put it in your CD drive and boot up your computer. Linux will run from the CD without touching your hard drive so you can check it out, if you like it just click to install.

There is a whole bunch more I could say, but I will leave it there.


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## Martin Co

I will most def would have to agree here! I absolutely love linux, especially Ubuntu/linux OS. 

I started using linux about 5 years ago when I got fed up with viruses under a windows platform and tired of having to constantly update and flesh out the system.

And there are no issues with running windows programs on linux either, by using a program called Wine. 

Updates are free, software is free, just be sure to enable all repositores "multiverse and universe."

You can also do what they call a "dual-boot" and have both windows and linux on your HD until you become more familiar with linux..




moorewarner said:


> There are reasons people choose Apple and reasons folks choose Windows.
> 
> But there is a third choice as well that everyone should at least be aware of, Linux.
> 
> The specific version of Linux I am going to bring up is Ubuntu/Linux.
> 
> http://www.ubuntu.com/
> 
> All three choices have their advantages and disadvantages, which is best depends on your comfort level with computers and what software you want to use.
> 
> Some reasons to consider Ubuntu/Linux.
> 
> 1) Linux is safe and stable. Just like Apples OSX Linux has almost no viruses or spyware, no need to run any of that type of software.
> 
> 2) Linux is incredibly powerful and flexible. Linux runs the majority of the worlds most powerful super computers (it runs almost all of the top ten). It is also the new android OS thet Google is coming out with for smart phones, as well as what runs Tivo and a host of other gadgets. Linux runs a majority of the Web as well, it is probably the most advanced of the three OS's.
> 
> 3) Linux is cheap. Beyond cheap, Linux is actually free. You can legally run your computer, your business, your whole country for free. Linux is what's called Free or Open Source Software (FOSS).
> 
> 3) Linux runs on just about anything. Linux runs on the same hardware that you would run Windows on. It will run on Apple computers. It will run on the computer you are getting ready to get rid of, and may run so well it will feel like a new computer (great to pass on to your kids).
> 
> 4) Linux comes with thousands of free applications. Whatever you are trying to do there are several choices of FOSS application to get it done. The FOSS environment produces Open Office, Firefox, Eclipse, Aptana to name just a few.
> 
> 5) Linux can run Windows and Widows applications. Just like Apple's Boot Camp if you have a Windows application you need to run you can run that application on Windows inside of Linux (that is how I run CAD, Quickbooks, and Adobe software). There are may advantages to running Windows this way. Another way to run Windows applications is through an application called WINE (how I run Sketchup & Cost Estimator), between the two you can run any Windows software you want.
> 
> In many ways Ubuntu/Linux is better than either Windows or Apple OSX and in a few ways it is still catching up. But the fact is you can go to that link above and download it for free and try it on your computer for yourself. The download is what they call a "Live CD" which means you download and burn the ".iso" image to a CD, put it in your CD drive and boot up your computer. Linux will run from the CD without touching your hard drive so you can check it out, if you like it just click to install.
> 
> There is a whole bunch more I could say, but I will leave it there.


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## gideond

I'll take a PC over a MAC any day. PC is just far more versatile in what you can do at about half the price point. Once you learn safe browsing habits and install good (free) security software, you don't tend to have many problems with Windows, especially with Windows 7. I like Linux as well though I haven't had time to play with it too much just yet.


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## carolinahandyma

There are benefits and drawbacks to both computers. You should first analyze how you use or plan to use a new computer. 
Ask yourself questions such as:
-What tasks do you currently perform or would like to do? Can you do on either model? 
-Is there software currently available that fits your needs for both models?
-Do I need mobile computing or a desktop?

I use a Mac occasionally (it's my wife's primary computer) and I primarily use a PC. The customer service you can get at the Apple store is superb. However, if you have to drive 2 hours to get to an Apple store, it probably isn't worth it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Right first off all don't be caught out by the pc's get viruses and worms and Apple don't bull crap. People who ain't electronics savy just repeat what they see on tv or what the salesman says. Any PC including Apple pc's need anti virus and malware/spyware protection. Apple even recommend installing a anti virus program!! Yes they mac anti virus for Mac's. You should never run any system without anti virus no matter who makes it. 

Next you can get a far better system for less money either building your own computer or buying a system. Apple have a problem of over charging on everything they make and don't offer anything performance wise that others can for half the cost. 

Don't believe the hype. Go and use both Windows and OSX and then come back and tell me you think the Apple machine is worth double the cost. Both OS work extremly well but the issue Apple has is the vast amount of software thats neither compatible or is compatible but never gets software updates. 

No they don't "just work" They used to be pretty reliable back when they were only in control of less than 1% of the market. Now that they are having to pump out larger numbers failure rates have increased vastly. If anything they have more problems for their size than any other pc company. Software problems too hardware problems are now the norm for Apple just like other company's. 

There's a reason they they only hold 7% of the PC market. Just like the iphone they are made out to be the bread and butter in their industry but are far from it. They are form over function with everything they make and they are the king of locking down software and hardware. 

If you want to be different and hang around with the starbucks and crew then the Mac is the king here.

If you want a system that will blow the socks of a Mac then pick from one of the many top pc builders or build your own. It ain't hard.


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## moorewarner

> Right first off all don't be caught out by the pc's get viruses and worms and Apple don't bull crap. People who ain't electronics savy just repeat what they see on tv or what the salesman says. Any PC including Apple pc's need anti virus and malware/spyware protection. Apple even recommend installing a anti virus program!! Yes they mac anti virus for Mac's. You should never run any system without anti virus no matter who makes it.


BCConsstuction, no offense but I had to respond to this, because I worked in IT. I have been building boxes and using Windows since 3.1 for Workgroups (pre Windows 95). It is an absolute fact, undisputed in the whole IT industry that Windows accounts for almost all viruses in computing. The few viruses for Macs (over it's entire history) number below 100, the number for Linux is less than 20. The number for windows is in the high *hundreds of thousands* (approaching a million). 

This is just a fact. I could explain some of the technical reasons why Windows is so vulnerable and some like to claim that Windows popularity is the reason that windows has so many. But that Windows does and that OSX and Linux don't is undisputed by anyone who works in the industry. Google will prove that point in about 60 seconds.



> Next you can get a far better system for less money either building your own computer or buying a system. Apple have a problem of over charging on everything they make and don't offer anything performance wise that others can for half the cost.


We agree 100% here, you can get better bang for your buck building your own, and those in the know do. :thumbsup:



> Don't believe the hype. Go and use both Windows and OSX and then come back and tell me you think the Apple machine is worth double the cost. Both OS work extremly well but the issue Apple has is the vast amount of software thats neither compatible or is compatible but never gets software updates.
> 
> No they don't "just work" They used to be pretty reliable back when they were only in control of less than 1% of the market. Now that they are having to pump out larger numbers failure rates have increased vastly. If anything they have more problems for their size than any other pc company. Software problems too hardware problems are now the norm for Apple just like other company's.
> 
> There's a reason they they only hold 7% of the PC market. Just like the iphone they are made out to be the bread and butter in their industry but are far from it. They are form over function with everything they make and they are the king of locking down software and hardware.
> 
> If you want to be different and hang around with the starbucks and crew then the Mac is the king here.


I'll leave this to Apple fans to defend, they do always seem happy though. :whistling



> If you want a system that will blow the socks of a Mac then pick from one of the many top pc builders or build your own. It ain't hard.


And if you want to blow the rest of your clothes off as well take that home built box and slap on Ubuntu. :thumbup:


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## jcalvin

I bought a Mac a couple years ago and have never had any problems out of it. Not even the first. However, it is difficult to find software to go on the machine. You can run Windows on the Mac but that seems like an oxymoron IMO. The reason that Macs never crash is because there are fewer people that can build virus to infect the machine and pack into a trojan horse. It is a couple hundred additional dollars to get the software to run windows on a Mac and adding that to the price of a Mac, it gets pricey. If you ever have problems on the Mac, it is also harder to find someone that can work on it. 

I will not buy another Mac until they become more mainstream.


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## dan-o

I use a Macbook as I prefer the quality of apple products (all aluminum case, screens etc).
To avoid the software issues, which are real in terms of construction applications, I run Parallels 5 and Windows XP in addition to the Mac OS.
That allows me to run any windows app without issue.
Yes its a more expensive set up than a cheap PC laptop but that's OK with me.


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## wallmaxx

I dumped PC for Mac 8 months ago as part of my app writing plan. All of my design specific software is PC based. Not a problem with my 24" iMac. It also allows me to run windows on it. A pgm called Parallels 5 is the current and best solution IMHO. I can have both OSes going at the same time with no noticeable issues.

My iMac has never had an issue. So, yes, IT JUST WORKS.

I love how people try to compare PCs from the windows side vs the mac side on cost alone.

Every mac comes with incredibly useful software for free (no bloatware) and their office suite is $79 and does maybe 70% of what the $500 MS office does. 

My intel mac can and does whatever OS I choose to install inside the box. So for me, it is all mac. Oh, and if you need a web site built or you are a budding musician, there are very good built in applications that are mid to pro level in their production results.

Macs work because they control the hardware and the software. Poor old WINDOWS always has to be modified to include the next device's drivers or whatever when someone manufactures a new version of a part. Some times these new drivers can cause unforeseen conflicts...this is only one headache faced by the team in Redmond. It is a completely different model. I have had great success with my mac....I can do all my PC specific design work and then jump to my mac to do everything else. Good luck. Go mac.

PS

If you have all of the peripherals, you should consider a mac mini. (or a big iMac...they are really nice to CAD on)


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## moorewarner

For folks that are wanting to do virtualization, a very nice free FOSS option is Virtualbox, runs on Mac, Linux, and Windows, worth checking out.

http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads


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## The Coastal Craftsman

moorewarner said:


> BCConsstuction, no offense but I had to respond to this, because I worked in IT. I have been building boxes and using Windows since 3.1 for Workgroups (pre Windows 95). It is an absolute fact, undisputed in the whole IT industry that Windows accounts for almost all viruses in computing. The few viruses for Macs (over it's entire history) number below 100, the number for Linux is less than 20. The number for windows is in the high *hundreds of thousands* (approaching a million).
> 
> This is just a fact. I could explain some of the technical reasons why Windows is so vulnerable and some like to claim that Windows popularity is the reason that windows has so many. But that Windows does and that OSX and Linux don't is undisputed by anyone who works in the industry. Google will prove that point in about 60 seconds.
> 
> We agree 100% here, you can get better bang for your buck building your own, and those in the know do. :thumbsup:
> 
> I'll leave this to Apple fans to defend, they do always seem happy though. :whistling
> 
> And if you want to blow the rest of your clothes off as well take that home built box and slap on Ubuntu. :thumbup:


No offense taken. Just too many times do i see people repeat exactly what they see on TV. "I want a computer that just works without thousands of viruses and a ton of headaches" 

But these commercials only work on people who don't know anything about the systems. Yes Unix is more secure than any windows system has ever been but it's still not 100%. Even the anti virus Apple supply's on OSX now is still not any good at stopping threats. In over 24 years of using PC's i have never had one system infected by a virus. Yes there are thousands more on Windows but it's a moot point. Your stupid not to run anti virus on either system. It wernt that long ago them Cupertino based idiots were crapping their pants about viruses and the lack of good anti virus for Mac's. Thats why they added the file quarantine update. But still it has many problems. 

The main thing i hate about Apple is the way they lock everything down. There's no need for it and it's a reason many software companys want nothing to do with them. Apple could learn a lot from companys like Google and Microsoft.


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## moorewarner

> The main thing i hate about Apple is the way they lock everything down. There's no need for it and it's a reason many software companys want nothing to do with them. Apple could learn a lot from companys like Google and Microsoft.


Agreed, the level of control Apple exerts over the platform was always a negative to me as well, though for some folks that control is what gives then what they want, predictability.

I also never saw the value in the increased cost of Apple either, especially in comparison to what I could get when I built myself.


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## RobertCDF

First let me say my new favorite line: Don't blame windows because you were dumb and clicked on a link you should not have. It's your own dumb fault.

It's not hard to not get a virus my first step... Remove all virus software. Second step... Don't click on dumb things on dumb places on the web never had a problem. I have been using computers back when dos prompt ruled and gui was for noobs. Back with dumb terminals and 1200 baud modems.


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## RobertCDF

And if mac is the end all savior... Then why do 98% of the users still run a Windows copy? I mean if its superior then why do they insist on running the inferior Windows? Answer me that. And if you say it's because you need to in order to run software then there is no way it is superior. I mean you don't see me running OSX right?


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## Trim-man

I just wanted to thank everyone for all your thoughts on the subject. Lot's of great info to make a much more informed decision, even some new options that I didn't even know existed. Now on to the decision............


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## The Coastal Craftsman

RobertCDF said:


> And if mac is the end all savior... Then why do 98% of the users still run a Windows copy? I mean if its superior then why do they insist on running the inferior Windows? Answer me that. And if you say it's because you need to in order to run software then there is no way it is superior. I mean you don't see me running OSX right?


Thats something i will never understand either. My father in law has a Mac. Warned him not to because of the special software they use at the family business and the issues they will have integrating the mac into that system. He went out and bought one because of what he see on TV about it "just working" They have multiple Dells at the office and they are always going wrong. Well he has just about given up on Apple and their customer service. He's had to cal them maybe 20-30 times in the last year. Simple problems from printers not working to whole data being deleted. He now runs the system in windows mode full time and i ain't seen him use OSX in a long time! 

Whats funny is you go into any star bucks and take a look at what OS everyone is using. 90% of them people in that place are using windows. The reason being is they really have no choice. Most software people use is windows based and in my eyes it's crazy to buy a pc at double the cost and locked down to then just run windows on it. 

Apple will never corner the market in anything until they learn that they have to have a open platform and let people buy the hardware they want to run the OS they want. Why should you have to buy a Mac to run OSX!! Microsoft wouldn't be able to get away with this. They just got band from using IE on their own OS in Europe just not long ago. Now they have to let you choose which browser you wish to use from a random list!!! 

Shame prystar got shut down. Shows how greedy a company like Apple truly is. They make Microsoft look small time when it comes to ripping of your customers.


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## RobertCDF

BCConstruction said:


> Shows how greedy a company like Apple truly is. They make Microsoft look small time when it comes to ripping of your customers.


This is so true just look at when the iphone first came out it did not support 3G and 3G was in just about every market. They did it because they knew the hype would sell a ton and then those people would upgrade when a 3g version came. 

Same thing with the ipad 2nd gen will support multitasking, usb (direct) and sd (maybe, they seem to have issues with the idea of expandability even though they are the only manufactures that don't have sd or micro sd on many of the devices that should.)


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## The Coastal Craftsman

RobertCDF said:


> This is so true just look at when the iphone first came out it did not support 3G and 3G was in just about every market. They did it because they knew the hype would sell a ton and then those people would upgrade when a 3g version came.
> 
> Same thing with the ipad 2nd gen will support multitasking, usb (direct) and sd (maybe, they seem to have issues with the idea of expandability even though they are the only manufactures that don't have sd or micro sd on many of the devices that should.)


 
They didn't used to be like this. They have cornered a market of people where form over function is the seller. They don't care what features it has. They just need to be seen with the latest and greatest Apple gadget. Ok not all of the Apple buyers are like this and I'm sure that the guys on here are not in that group but that group is the reason Apple has boomed in the last few years and it's the normal consumer who loses out. Ask you kids what MP3 player do they want, what phone do they want and what laptop do they want and 90% of the time it's Apple. Not because they know the technical specs but because it's the "cool thing to have and be seen with" features dont mean anything. They just want the current gen and thats why Apple bring out numerous generations so that the same people will buy gen 1 gen 2 gen 3 gen 4 and so on. Whats there ipod on now 7th/8th gen. My mate has bought every generation of that dam thing.


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## Solar Control

We use a Mac and Windows PCs. Most takeoff software is Windows based and a number of vendors' and planrooms' sites require Internet Explorer to function correctly.

The Mac is offered at a premium price. Few people would argue that and some would justify it by saying that it is less costly to maintain. If the $400 - $500 is a big deal, don't buy an Apple; it probably doesn't make sense for your business.

I personally prefer the Mac's interface. I like the software that adheres to their guidelines and it _may_ make me more productive. It's a luxury I'm willing to indulge.

Makita, Festool, Dewalt, Craftsman, Apple, Dell, etc. They're all tools.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Perfect example "Mac OS X is like living in a farmhouse in the country with no locks, and Windows is living in a house with bars on the windows in the bad part of town," 

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1597220/mac-os-x-zero-day-flaws


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## WarnerConstInc.

I have used several different mp3 players and the most simple for me to use has been an ipod.
I am a dork but, I have an ipod touch and just got an iphone when my old mobile carrier merged with at&t.
I am happy with my phone, I don't need a laptop really.

I am still on the fence about getting a imac. The few programs I like are not available for it.

But daaum, that monitor on the imac 27 is sweet. (Grrrr no blue ray drive.)


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## RobertCDF

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I have used several different mp3 players and the most simple for me to use has been an ipod.
> I am a dork but, I have an ipod touch and just got an iphone when my old mobile carrier merged with at&t.
> I am happy with my phone, I don't need a laptop really.
> 
> I am still on the fence about getting a imac. The few programs I like are not available for it.
> 
> But daaum, that monitor on the imac 27 is sweet. (Grrrr no blue ray drive.)


Oh man your right only mac makes big nice screens... I wonder how my friend has a 30" dell?? That is so odd... Maybe he painted a mac screen black and put a dell logo on it...Yeah that must be it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Yes but the Apple one is better because it's made by Apple:thumbsup: even thought they have had multiple issues with DOA screens.


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## WarnerConstInc.

Even if it didn't work, it still looks nice off.


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## wallmaxx

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I have used several different mp3 players and the most simple for me to use has been an ipod.
> I am a dork but, I have an ipod touch and just got an iphone when my old mobile carrier merged with at&t.
> I am happy with my phone, I don't need a laptop really.
> 
> I am still on the fence about getting a imac. *The few programs I like are not available for it.*
> 
> But daaum, that monitor on the imac 27 is sweet. (Grrrr no blue ray drive.)


Like what?

I use AutoCAD, SolidBuilder, SoftPlan in WIN XP (through a virtual emulation pgm Parallels 5) and they work just fine.


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## RobertCDF

wallmaxx said:


> Like what?
> 
> I use AutoCAD, SolidBuilder, SoftPlan in WIN XP (through a virtual emulation pgm Parallels 5) and they work just fine.


If mac is superior why are you running xp on it? 

How can is possibly be superior if you need to run an "inferior" OS to do what you need?


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## moorewarner

RobertCDF said:


> If mac is superior why are you running xp on it?
> 
> How can is possibly be superior if you need to run an "inferior" OS to do what you need?


You are joking aren't you? Because application availability has nothing, zero, zip, nada to do with the quality of the OS, Windows or OSX or Linux.

It's all about economics and the network effect. From a technical perspective Windows itself has always been the weak link in the Windows world. Actually running windows virtualized is about the safest most efficient way to do it, minimize it's control footprint and don't leave it to fend for itself because it is unequipped to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect#Software

I mean I like tweakin the Mac folk as much as anyone, hey good times.

But let's not pretend that that statement has *any* basis in reality.

Windows is widely regarded as being a mass of spaghetti code. What does that mean exactly? Well imagine a house wired by a couple of real electricians and another wired by a commitee of one electrition, the home owner, the gardener, and the family dog.

The two results might look a little like this...


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## RobertCDF

moorewarner said:


> You are joking aren't you? Because application availability has nothing, zero, zip, nada to do with the quality of the OS, Windows or OSX or Linux.
> 
> It's all about economics and the network effect. From a technical perspective Windows itself has always been the weak link in the Windows world. Actually running windows virtualized is about the safest most efficient way to do it, minimize it's control footprint and don't leave it to fend for itself because it is unequipped to do so.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect#Software
> 
> I mean I like tweakin the Mac folk as much as anyone, hey good times.
> 
> But let's not pretend that that statement has *any* basis in reality.
> 
> Windows is widely regarded as being a mass of spaghetti code. What does that mean exactly? Well imagine a house wired by a couple of real electricians and another wired by a commitee of one electrition, the home owner, the gardener, and the family dog.
> 
> The two results might look a little like this...


Well sure your right and we know it but this is an argument that 99% of mac owners just finally shut up when you tell them this. It sure beats out the ones who don't even have a clue why they own a mac they just thought they looked cool. 

You and I both know that properly maintained windows OS can be very efficient and stable. However so many people out there are doing dumb things with their computers that they need one that allows less control.


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## wallmaxx

Anderson said:


> *I have a mac and it is terrible finding basic software for construction*. I am pretty sure you can have your mac set up to run windows programs too. I have just not bothered, I am going back to a PC.


All intel-based Macs run PC software as well as OSX. What software OS requirements do you have? I run all my old PC design software on my MAC without a hitch. 

Do you not have a new mac?


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## wallmaxx

AFOREMA1 said:


> I prefer the pc route seems to be more software and in my opinion ease of use.


All intel Macs can run both OSes. Anything you can do in Linux or Windows, you can do on your Mac.



AFOREMA1 said:


> Not to mention the outrages prices they want for a comparable Apple platform just not worth it to me.


Does any PC manufacturer even make an iMac to compare it to?



AFOREMA1 said:


> Now if I was doing mostly design work I would go all out and pay the crazy high apple prices.:thumbup:


So you admit that the mac is superior for design work....and worth it. Cool.


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## wallmaxx

RobertCDF said:


> If mac is superior why are you running xp on it?
> 
> How can is possibly be superior if you need to run an "inferior" OS to do what you need?


Because the software is designed to reach the largest market - windows.

The great thing is I have a tool that can work in every OS out there.....I'm happy with that flexibility. 

Don't hate it just because you hate it. I can run any piece of software from any vendor - a PC only guy can't.

If you are happy with PC - super. I am happy with mac.:thumbsup:


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## wallmaxx

Oh, and I also own a Stiletto Ti-Bone 15 - I like quality things and I pay for them.


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## RobertCDF

wallmaxx said:


> Does any PC manufacturer even make an iMac to compare it to?


Do you mean a small form factor? If so look into shuttle computers they have been around years before imac. 

I just bought a new laptop for $369 for brand new with 3gb (now 4gb I had extra laying around) no it's not a top of the line computer but it will handle all my sketchup deck designs no problem... Mac have an answer for $369? 

I also have no problem paying top dollar for tools that OUTPERFORM cheaper alternatives, but it has to actually do a better job. I would own the Stilleto hammer myself but it has been awhile since I had to swing a hammer and hopefully it will stay that way.


----------



## Tiger

I purchased my first iMac last September and transferred all my data to the software that came with it. I'd never used an Apple product before and have been very happy with it. Previously I'd purchased PCs from Gateway, then Dell. If this iMac continues to perform as well as it has since September, I'll continue with iMacs in the future.


----------



## ApgarNJ

I have both but really like the Macbook pro. we run windows on it also. you just hold down the OPtion key when starting the computer and it asks you to boot to Windows or MAC o/s. most of the time i'm in the mac side, this thing doesn't crash, and have zero issues with it.

I need to upgrade my quickbooks pro for windows and i am tempted to go to the mac version but i have heard horror stories, anyone running quickbooks pro 2010 for mac? any issues with converting a windows based older version of quickbooks into the mac one?


----------



## robstyles21

Macs rock, PCs JOCK!


----------



## moorewarner

Trim-man said:


> I just wanted to thank everyone for all your thoughts on the subject. Lot's of great info to make a much more informed decision, even some new options that I didn't even know existed. Now on to the decision............



So now that we have have beaten this horse to death for 6 pages, you are going to tell us which way you end up going, right? :laughing:


----------



## Trim-man

Certainly, I just wasn't sure when the right time was going to come, I didn't want to interupt the thread. I'm going Apple, I Mac 27" for the desk unit and Mac Book Pro.:thumbup: I think between here and other places I asked I had enough information to go either way (although over all it leaned towards Apple). I wanted as was said here and every where else a "dependable tool", and yes I am very willing to pay extra for dependability. Also a local dependable support system touted by many here who live around me weighed heavily in the decision. 
I know alot of people can build and maintain a larger better and even cheaper systems than the Apple but that's not me. I want to turn it on, use it, then go do something else. If it doesn't turn on I want to take it down the street and tell the kid behind the counter to fix it. Another thing that helped with my decision. I've had the I-phone since it came out, on the second generation now and both have preformed flawlessly. When I first purchased the phone and needed any support, it was right there, by phone or in person. None of the "sorry sir if you had paid for the next level of support I could answer that question, I could upgrade you now"!!
Again I say thank you to everyone for the responses. This morning one of my GC's asked my opinion on something. I gave him my opinion then told him if he really wanted some opinions by other true profesional tradesmen, join Contractor Talk and come ask for advice.


----------



## wallmaxx

Apple Corp. are pushing the limits of innovation....cool

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/30/apple-applies-for-disappearing-button-patent/


*Apple applies for 'disappearing button' patent*
By Sean Hollister posted Apr 30th 2010 at 7:26AM











You know that little sleep indicator light on the front of your new MacBook Pro -- the one that simply disappears when your notebook is wide awake? Apple wants to do that for buttons, too. Cupertino's latest patent application is for pressure-sensitive, capacitive touchscreen materials it could build right into the surface of its aluminum-clad devices, and identify with laser-cut, micro-perforated holes that let light shine from within. According to the filing, the technology could potentially be used to eliminate existing buttons in favor of a smooth, solid slab, and / or integrate new ones into surfaces that weren't previously considered for use. Engineers imagine light-up controls on a laptop's lid that could be used while closed for things like USB charging and media playback, and local heat and sound sensors that selectively light up interface opportunities when users are in close proximity. Not bad, Apple. As long as you let us keep our nice, springy keyboards, we're all for revolutionizing the rest of modern input.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman

wallmaxx said:


> Apple Corp. are pushing the limits of innovation....cool
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/30/apple-applies-for-disappearing-button-patent/
> 
> 
> *Apple applies for 'disappearing button' patent*
> By Sean Hollister posted Apr 30th 2010 at 7:26AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know that little sleep indicator light on the front of your new MacBook Pro -- the one that simply disappears when your notebook is wide awake? Apple wants to do that for buttons, too. Cupertino's latest patent application is for pressure-sensitive, capacitive touchscreen materials it could build right into the surface of its aluminum-clad devices, and identify with laser-cut, micro-perforated holes that let light shine from within. According to the filing, the technology could potentially be used to eliminate existing buttons in favor of a smooth, solid slab, and / or integrate new ones into surfaces that weren't previously considered for use. Engineers imagine light-up controls on a laptop's lid that could be used while closed for things like USB charging and media playback, and local heat and sound sensors that selectively light up interface opportunities when users are in close proximity. Not bad, Apple. As long as you let us keep our nice, springy keyboards, we're all for revolutionizing the rest of modern input.


 


Lol Apple filling more Patents which they copied from other company's again.:no: They are turning into some proper Patent trolls in the last few years. By the way you do know that other company's have been doing this exact same thing for years. I even had it on my qosmio laptop years ago. My mate has it on his old HP and i think Sony even done it back about 7 years ago. I would love to know how they are going to stop the system from functioning when you rest your palm there also. If i remember correctly Microsoft own the system patent that recognizes the difference between a palm and fingers back when they started developing Surface.


----------



## TMPFDAS

Apple all the way!


----------



## basswood

Good move Trim-man.

You will not regret going with Apple. I switched after a couple of decades of PC use... I don't miss them at all. 

Apple may not be the cheapest... but just like in contracting... you don't really want cheap. Apple customers are like my customers--they want top quality and are willing to pay for it. arty:

Bass


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman

:no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no:

It's so funny watching people being parted with their hard earned cash. What people should do is go out and use both systems for a few hours. Neither OS is better than the other. OSX does stuff better than windows and windows does stuff better than OSX. Then look at the hardware costs for the machine. Then weight up the cost of both systems and decide if you want to pay double for a fancy looking case box! 

:thumbup:Apple at long last though are now being looked into about their coding restrictions. (wouldn't be a half bad OS if they wernt so restrictive) Seems that now they are starting to take on a bigger market share of electronics they are going to have the exact same issues Microsoft have in the market place. Hopefully they hit that magic 25% market share mark so that these antitrust lawsuits can go through. I wouldn't mind running OSX and windows one day but thers no way I'm paying apple 2-3 times what their systems are worth just to run OSX :blink:


----------



## macmikeman

Here is what is stupid about this whole thread. The argument has been going on for 25 years now. Why would I know that? Cause I used to be one of the ones arguing for Apple 25 years ago, You probably are not that old, but Apple had mouse, a graphical user interface instead of typing dos commands. Also connectivity and networking to each other for less than $50 bucks with very simple to hook up plug in wiring. The ability to store files of different types in a single folder instead of only on a directory with only files of the same type. Remote access, and a host of other intuitive features the other guys did not. All the while the pc crowd kept explaining that all that stuff was "gimmicks for the less competent computer user crowd. Time passed and they copied all those things. Apple kept leapfrogging ahead, the pc crowd kept up with the " those Apple innovations are just dumb features for dumb users line" and then the same items turned up in the next version of flakey Windows. The arguing should be over, Windows 7 (a copycat of Osx once again by the way) has caught up this time. Microsoft finally did it, they have a quality product , there is no advantage to Apple's operating system any longer. So everybody can shake hands and go home now. And Apple has become the same as the company that they hurled the first macintosh at in the famous super bowl ad. It has to be done Steve Jobs way or you cannot sell it on I-tunes. Its time for a third party, I think Linux qualifies for this nicely, as many have said.


----------



## mhome

*mac*

Once you go Mac you never go back.


----------



## moorewarner

> Neither OS is better than the other.


From a usability stand point sure, it's what you prefer and what apps you want to run; but from a *technology standpoint*. Windows is sucky sucky.

---

"Suffice it to say that last week was a pretty crappy one for me. *My FaceBook account was somehow compromised*, causing untold amounts of my friends to receive a spammed invite to some sort of diet seminar scam event and then having to endure the embarrassment that accompanied it.

The compromise itself was easily rectified, I had to reset all of my core passwords — FaceBook, GMail, blogs, et cetera. Then I proceeded to sweep malware from my various Windows systems in my house — my primary Windows 7 testing workstation, my wife’s Windows 7 office PC, my Windows XP virtual machines, and our shared recreational Windows 7 laptop.

Fortunately, my testing Windows 2008R2 servers that run my other Windows virtual machines hadn’t been powered on for a few weeks, and I don’t do any browsing on them, so those were unaffected.

Generally speaking I’d like to think that my browsing and downloading practices are fairly safe. I have a hardware firewall with port filtering plus the Windows firewall was enabled on all of my machines with application specific filtering on those turned as well. My passwords are all strong mixed case alphanumerics, which would make them very difficult (although not impossible) to penetrate using brute force methods.

I ran *Avast! Free*, a pretty decent antivirus program on all of my Windows systems save for my work Windows XP VM, which runs a corporate-licensed instance of *Symantec Antivirus*. I also kept my FaceBook account from being linked to as few applications as possible, and I never let *anyone *with a USB drive near my home computers.

For my primary browsers I use Google Chrome and Firefox, with various script-blocking extensions running. I only use Internet Explorer when I absolutely have to, such as when I am doing MSDN downloads. I also ran antispyware sweeps with *Spybot Search & Destroy* on all my Windows systems automatically several times a week. It was a routine that worked, for several years, and it kept me out of trouble for a long time.

To this day I still have no idea what whacked me. Our ZDNet Zero Day security blogger, *Ryan Naraine*, suggested that I might have been hit with some weird variant of Koobface, and that I try a more comprehensive virus and malware scanner than what I was using — *Kaspersky*.

[*UPDATE 1:* *It appears over 1.5 million FaceBook accounts have been compromised* via a Russian hacker. While I can't rule out that a direct account compromise via brute force password attack rather than a Windows trojan was the culprit, I'm not going to assume up front I was part of this site-wide compromise. If FaceBook itself isn't encrypting its main password database we've got even bigger problems than one blogger's PC to deal with.]

[*UPDATE 2:* Naraine, who works as a security consultant for Kaspersky, believed that this was Windows malware versus some sort of cross-site scripting attack (as my ZDNet colleagues *Adrian Kingsley-Hughes* and *Zack Whittaker* have suggested this morning) because as we were discussing the subject on IM, and had me diagnose some things on the phone, he got hit with the spam, which led him to believe at the time the machine itself was compromised and not the sites. This may be have been a co-incidence, as Naraine was already a friend of mine on FaceBook, but at the time, we weren't going to take any chances]

I also had about 100GB of “Junk” data on my main system, so I trashed all of that, then ran a full Kaspersky 2010 scan — which took hours even after I did a spring cleaning and trashed all the garbage — and came up with absolutely nothing.

My other two light-use Windows PCs and my primary XP VM on which I ran other scans also came up with nothing. Spybot yielded a bunch of minor malware tracking cookies, but nothing that would raise my eyebrows such as a well-known trojan.

As some of my colleagues note, It’s certainly possible that the compromise occurred on another system that I had used to log into FaceBook, such on a friend’s or a family member’s computer that got infected which had my login credentials cached.

It’s unlikely since I always run something like *CCleaner* to wipe out all traces before leaving a PC that I had used, since all of my family’s systems are inspected for anti-malware capability before I use them and are scanned automatically, but I won’t rule it out. The bottom line, however, is that I suffered this compromise _*because I used Windows*_. If I had been using any other operating system, it probably wouldn’t have happened.

*Also Read: Why I Can Never Be Exclusive to Linux and Open Source on the Desktop*

Using Windows and Microsoft software is something I cannot get away from. *I still need to use Office and any number of Windows programs* in my personal and professional life. However, I’m no longer willing to babysit all my my systems due to the constant threat of malware. This last incident has left a massively dirty taste in my mouth and I’m not about to let this sort of thing happen again.

At work, I already run Linux as my primary operating system. My IBM ThinkPad runs Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10, with the Linux native version of *IBM Lotus Notes 8.5* and a myriad of other native Linux applications including *IBM Lotus Symphony 3* and various Java-based stuff and Intranet things that I need to do my day job.

*Also Read: Who is a Candidate for Desktop Linux?*

For those Windows things I still absolutely need that Linux doesn’t do, I use VirtualBox and Windows XP running in a virtual machine. For the most part, this hybridized approach has worked out for me just fine. My work computing environment is stable and for the most part, problem-free. It’s never been compromised.

Why? I don’t use my business computing asset for personal stuff, such as for researching ZDNet articles and reviewing and testing software. I don’t do my casual browsing on it. I don’t watch goofy videos that people email me and I don’t tweet with it. I don’t audio edit my podcasts with it or do anything else that would be considered non-work related.

For that, I have a powerful desktop workstation — *“Der Frankenputer”*, a dual Quad-Core Opteron system with 16GB of RAM that up until this last weekend has run Windows 7 64-Bit Ultimate Edition as its primary operating system.

It occurred to me that if I can survive at work with Ubuntu and a Windows VM on a Core Duo 2GB laptop, there’s no reason why at home I can’t do the same thing with a much more powerful box. I could use Ubuntu Lucid Lynx as my primary OS to do secure browsing and other Internet-related activities, and run my personal, non-business Windows 7 environment in a virtual machine using *VirtualBox*.

So this weekend, I popped in a brand-new 500GB hard drive, and installed the *Ubuntu Lucid Lynx* 10.04 release candidate, and never looked back. I copied in all of my personal data from my Windows 7 drive and installed a fresh copy of Windows 7 in VirtualBox. My love affair with Windows as my primary operating system is over.
​ I then took stock of all the apps I use and tried to identify any gaps in functionality I might have to deal with in Linux that would have to be addressed in the Windows 7 VM. Audacity, the program I use for podcast editing runs native in Linux, as does Chrome and Firefox 3.6. For my digital photo editing needs, Picasa seems to run decent enough on Linux in an optimized WINE binary and I’m already an avid GIMP user. So that takes care of most of my creative content stuff.
​ *Also Read: Ubuntu Lucid Lynx 10.04 Sneak Preview*

Skype is a bit back-revved on Linux and the VOIP recording solution isn’t as nice as the Windows stuff I have, so that as well as anything else I do with my webcam or headset will have to run virtualized. iTunes will also have to run in Windows if I want to transfer data directly from the PC to my iPad. That’s no biggie, as VirtualBox supports USB 2.0 so all my peripherals will work fine.

I’ll definitely have to throw a decent amount of memory and vCPUs at the Windows 7 VM to get decent performance, but I’m willing to put up with it. I’ve also got several Windows 7 VMs running on my beefier Windows 2008R2 Hyper-V and VMWare ESXi servers if the Windows vritual instance on my “monster” workstation doesn’t cut the mustard.

Windows 7 is now on double secret virtual probation. Like a misbehaving child, it’s being given a permanent Time Out from the Internet. No more browsing with it, period. It’s strictly relegated to running apps that don’t have Linux equivalents or functionality, and the network ports the applications need to use will be closely monitored by a UTM firewall which will notify me the second something funky happens. For browsing and general system tasks, Linux will be my safe haven from now on.

I’m not the only one in the household who’s just been Linuxed this weekend. My wife is a browsing junkie and is even more addicted to FaceBook than I am. Since all she does on her laptop is browse the web, watch web videos, use FaceBook and play Flash games like Lexulous, Scrabble and Uno, she doesn’t need Windows on that system and its one less computer on my home network I need to worry about being a potential security hole. So now she’s using Lucid Lynx too.

After a short training session where I showed her where all her icons were and demonstrated that all her sites and programs worked normally, she’s happy as a clam.

I myself was particularly impressed that her Dell Studio 1550 64-bit Core Duo, which has an integrated Wireless-N chipset, worked absolutely flawlessly without having to do any sort of driver tweaking. Right after installation the system prompted me to enable the ATI proprietary accelerated video driver for best performance, and with a single mouse click and a short automated download it was done. Stuff Just Worked. No doubt about it — Linux has definitely come of age for end-users with Ubuntu 10.04.

I thought I would be happy with Windows 7 as my primary OS, and that the security problems that plagued Windows XP and Vista would largely be a thing of the past. Indeed, Microsoft has made some nice improvements in security with Windows 7 and they’ve been much more vigilant about updates.

That being said, with malware getting more and more sophisticated and with Windows still being the primary target of these attacks, I’m just not willing to take that sort of chance and risking another malware attack like what happened to me last week anymore.

I’m still going to use Windows and Microsoft programs, but they won’t get unrestricted access to my systems like it used to. Like any unpredictable and potentially dangerous animal, it will be contained and controlled — and in a Linux virtual cage.

I can’t say this approach with work for everyone — but with the huge level of exposure I now have working for a large technology company and being a fairly well-known technology blogger, I have the luxury of making the problem go away with any enabling technology at my disposal. That means goodbye, Windows 7 and Hello Ubuntu."

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/perlow/wi...e-penguins-back/12768?tag=mantle_skin;content

I got a million of 'em, ...just sayin'. :whistling

Though the author above is reccomending Ubuntu, even better for a new user to Linux is Mint, which is based off of Ubuntu but includs stuff most folks want by default (flash, java, video/DVD codecs). Mint's GUI setup is also a little closer to Win XP/7. It's all free and more stable/powerfull/flexible than even OSX. :thumbsup:​


----------



## moorewarner

> The arguing should be over, Windows 7 (a copycat of Osx once again by the way) has caught up this time. *Microsoft finally did it, they have a quality product , there is no advantage to Apple's operating system any longer.*


*(sorry macmikeman, I think I missed the resigned sarcasm of that line on first read.) :laughing:

No, it shouldn't.

No, they didn't.

They have a "quality" (secure/stable) product only in comparison to their own products and history, *not* their competitors.

The architecture of Windows is still seriously deficient. Read about all the "PC" viruses that come out in the next year, they will be, as always, *Windows viruses*.

Let me say this, again, for the hearing impaired... WINDOWS, AS COMPARED TO UNIX, LINUX, BSD, SOLARIS, OSX, *IS DEFICIENT ARCHITECTURALLY*.

To say otherwise is just plain wrong and ignorant of current OS designs.

Windows may have finally caught OSX in UI and shiny wiz-bang, but it has most definitely *not* caught it in security/stability.


----------



## ApgarNJ

ahhhhhh, this thread is still going. it will never end! I ignored it for week and it's still being battled back and forth....


----------



## Boxcar

Apple is a couple click away from everything and it comes with all the software you need to run a computer. The upgrades are dirt cheap and the hardware is awesome. $39.95 for a Skil sidewinder you can throw it at the wall when you get mad, no hard feelings that's a P.C. $385.00 for a fein tool, you will have it forever it does everything you want it to do and you doin't have to "finesse it" to get what you need it's just there doing the work. Apple stuff is the best but, you have to decide what you need from your computer before you spend a dime anyhow. Make a list of needs then go shopping that's the best way.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman

Apple stuff is far from the best. It seems Apple buyers never look into what they are really buying. The Hardware is extremly over priced and not better because it has Apple stamped on the front of it. At last check they had something like a 13%avg failure rate across it's whole range. They have as many problems as any other company but you are paying about 3x the price.

Lets put it this way. Would you buy a car that could only run on special fuel the company it's self sold! The problem is this fuel is 3x the cost of every other fuel because this is exactly what Apple are doing. It wouldn't be allowed by any other company that large.

The only thing that ever comes out of Apple owners mouths is it wont get viruses! But even Apple them self say you should run Anti virus with their OS just like Microsoft do. You dint have to pay for them so use them. Then neither system will have problems. 

But then there's the BSOD lol. Of course yes PC's do crash but so do Macs, ipod's, ipad's and everything else they make. Ok you don't get a BSOD but instead you get a frozen or locked screen that you then have to reboot for. To be honest though i ain't had a BSOD since about SP2 on XP.


----------



## brandonriffel

Anybody that has used the new unibody macbooks and doesn't agree that it is the most sturdy laptop they've ever seen is full of crap. THAT is why they cost more, BETTER hardware.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman

brandonriffel said:


> Anybody that has used the new unibody macbooks and doesn't agree that it is the most sturdy laptop they've ever seen is full of crap. THAT is why they cost more, BETTER hardware.


Could you give us a run down off the hardware spec as last time I checked they don't use anything that would make them stand out. Just today I was checking them out in best buy when I bought an overpriced rip off iPad. Second one I will say.


----------



## brandonriffel

BCConstruction said:


> Could you give us a run down off the hardware spec as last time I checked they don't use anything that would make them stand out. Just today I was checking them out in best buy when I bought an overpriced rip off iPad. Second one I will say.


I'm confused about why you are so negative, yet you are buying your second iPad. Which I might add is at a starting price $500 less than most expected it to be.

I dare anybody to compare a $1000 HP laptop and a $1000 Apple laptop. Battery life, aesthetics, horsepower, durability, residual value after 3 years.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman

brandonriffel said:


> I'm confused about why you are so negative, yet you are buying your second iPad. Which I might add is at a starting price $500 less than most expected it to be.
> 
> I dare anybody to compare a $1000 HP laptop and a $1000 Apple laptop. Battery life, aesthetics, horsepower, durability, residual value after 3 years.


 
$649 HP Pavilion dv4-2160
Intel Core i5 430M(2.26GHz)
4GB DDR3 Memory 
320GB HDD 7200rpm 
DVD Super Multi
Intel HD Graphics


$999

2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR3 memory
250GB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 320M graphics


$999 

ASUS N61JQ-X1 NoteBook 
Intel Core i7 720QM(1.60GHz) 
16" 
4GB Memory DDR3 1066 
320GB HDD 7200rpm 
DVD Super Multi 
ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5730 1G DDR3
USB 3.0
HDMI

As you can see Apples entry level system is much lower in spec than even HP's entry level system. I was able to find system made by other companys with the same spec as apples system but they are models as much as 3 years old! My Alienware laptop is a higher spec than that system and it's nearly 4 years old. Mac sell you over priced low quality hardware just like 90% of the other brands do. Do think your getting better quality because you pay more. like i said failure rates are up their with the best of them. Alos as you requested there's an Asus there at same price as Apples entry level system and it's a far far better laptop hardware wise.


----------



## brandonriffel

Don't get me wrong, those are all great computers. I'm not sure I'd compare the asus to the macbook. The very first review on NewEgg said that the battery life was poor. 90 minutes isn't very close to 10 hours.

Just because the ASUS has lots of features crammed into it doesn't make it better. I do like that it has USB 3.0, that is pretty sweet, and HDMI.

So basically the Apple products cost 20-30% more. I think it is safe to say that they are of better construction and design, and FAR more attractive, which is important to many people. I mean people pay a premium to get a more attractive vehicle, even though the parts inside aren't any better than the others.


----------



## BRAVI

RobertCDF said:


> I've used (and fixed) mac on many occasions and my opinion of them is still the same (sh!t).
> I don't use the virus called itunes so I have no idea how much of the story was accurate, but he was fairly pissed off about losing all his songs and said that he was told "rebuy your songs". Sorry that I did not follow up with "well let me come over and see and let me listen in on the phone conversations you're having" I have things to do with my time. Of course if the guy is too stupid to use a mac I am surprised he is still alive because even a moron can use their crap.


Sorry but I'm not buying it. Unless you are referring to macs from 20 years ago, I think most issues with newer machines are consumer inflicted. Sure there is an occasional manufacture defect, however with their amazing customer service, Apple goes above and beyond to replace or fix those products.

According to Business Week, Apple ranked #3 in customer service in the entire retail industry and #1 in their field. HP, Dell, and all other PC manufactures are not even in the top 20. 

I know that there are people that blindly hate Apple and Steve Jobs, but it typically comes from people with actually little or no experience with Apple products.

Well if you really enjoy your windows experience as much as I enjoy all my Apple products, then I am happy you have something to suite your needs.


----------



## BRAVI

MALCO.New.York said:


> Wrong. At least in some instances.
> 
> I know of more than one person who has been screwed by iTunes Store after they suffered a data loss.
> 
> Apple as a Corporation is for shyte! iPhune Support is HORRIBLE and ARROGANT as well.
> 
> But I would not know... Considering I went through 9 iPhunes. 5 their fault 4, mine. My fault because of one broken screen, 1 brick wall, 1 pavement and 1 windshield. All out of FRUSTRATION with crappy software/firmware.
> 
> And YES! One windshield replacement to boot!


As far as I know they will allow re-downloads of apps, music, videos, and ibooks. I have several back-ups of my hard drive and luckily have never had to use them. 

Read my above response concerning Apple's customer service. Either you have anger management problems, or just simply do not take care of your electronic devices if you broke 4 iPhones. Not sure how you can blame them for your abuse. iOS is what makes iPhone great by the way. You know why every "iPhone or iPad Killer" that has come on the market with better hardware specs over the past 4 years has failed? Its because those manufactures focused on the hardware when in reality, most people simply care about user experience. iOS brings that user experience and until others realize that, their products will simply be another failed attempt to de-thrown the king. :thumbsup:


----------



## moorewarner

JWRoofing said:


> Get a Mac and buy Parallels for when you absolutely have to run a PC program. After a few years on a mac those times will be few and far between.


Skip buying Parallels and just use Virtualbox (virtualbox.org) for free instead.


----------



## RobertCDF

LoneStarSA said:


> As far as I know they will allow re-downloads of apps, music, videos, and ibooks. I have several back-ups of my hard drive and luckily have never had to use them.
> 
> Read my above response concerning Apple's customer service. Either you have anger management problems, or just simply do not take care of your electronic devices if you broke 4 iPhones. Not sure how you can blame them for your abuse. iOS is what makes iPhone great by the way. You know why every "iPhone or iPad Killer" that has come on the market with better hardware specs over the past 4 years has failed? Its because those manufactures focused on the hardware when in reality, most people simply care about user experience. iOS brings that user experience and until others realize that, their products will simply be another failed attempt to de-thrown the king. :thumbsup:


Yea my evo is crap.... oh wait it kills the iPhone 4 and the a500 I am using right now with honeycomb is total crap too I mean expandable storage, USB host, flash support who the heck would want such use full features...?

Sent from my A500 using Contractor Talk


----------



## BRAVI

RobertCDF said:


> Yea my evo is crap.... oh wait it kills the iPhone 4 and the a500 I am using right now with honeycomb is total crap too I mean expandable storage, USB host, flash support who the heck would want such use full features...?
> 
> Sent from my A500 using Contractor Talk


Hmm you can expand to 32 GB and I have 32 GB built-in (64 GB built-in on my iPad)...you win there? lmao. 

Enjoy your pathetic battery life with flash enabled (Not that it was great to begin with, iPad 2 kills it  ). Do you really play that much farmville on facebook that you need flash on your phone? Better concentrate on business. 

From what I read that USB is a huge fail. Only certain apps can access and not all devices are supported (exactly like the iPad 2 btw). I'm actually ok with it because I see no reason for USB on a tablet. Its there for specification whores to try and one up the iPad. 

Oh who would want those features? People who want to hate on Apple because they don't know any better. Enjoy your Acer. :laughing:


----------



## RobertCDF

LoneStarSA said:


> Hmm you can expand to 32 GB and I have 32 GB built-in (64 GB built-in on my iPad)...you win there? lmao.
> 
> Enjoy your pathetic battery life with flash enabled (Not that it was great to begin with, iPad 2 kills it  ). Do you really play that much farmville on facebook that you need flash on your phone? Better concentrate on business.
> 
> From what I read that USB is a huge fail. Only certain apps can access and not all devices are supported (exactly like the iPad 2 btw). I'm actually ok with it because I see no reason for USB on a tablet. Its there for specification whores to try and one up the iPad.
> 
> Oh who would want those features? People who want to hate on Apple because they don't know any better. Enjoy your Acer. :laughing:


I have unlimited storage, remember its expandable I could carry 500 32 gb cards if I wanted to. So far the USB has worked with everything I have plugged into it including even more storage... but you wouldn't know because you are basing an opinion on what you read. Battery lasts me all day and no I don't play farmville all day but when a manufacter has flash content I don't have to tell my customers 'oh sorry ipad doesn't support that, go and get on your computer and look it up yourself.' 

Flash only gets killed by html5 if the content you are trying to view/use is in html5, if its in flash then guess what... flash rules.

Sent from my A500 using Contractor Talk


----------



## BRAVI

If you bought and carry around extra memory cards, you have wasted your money. Ever heard of dropbox?

I have never had to show a manufactures website to a client. However that may be important in the deck industry, no idea. There are ways to run flash on iPad btw. I believe that most of the web is making the switch away from flash because it's a worthless product except for playing games and ads. Its a dying format and I'm happy to see it go.

Your battery last all day? Mine last all week. I only charge my iPad on the weekend. I also run it hard all week with video and photo demonstrations. I can't imagine killing a battery in one day. You must be used to that with that evo.

If you are happy then thats great. Apple products are not for everyone, I suppose.


----------



## RobertCDF

LoneStarSA said:


> If you bought and carry around extra memory cards, you have wasted your money. Ever heard of dropbox?
> 
> If you are happy then thats great. Apple products are not for everyone, I suppose.


You missed the point, I don't carry memory cards because I personally only need about 5GB for what I'm doing, I also have dropbox but I don't use it much with my pad (everything I need is local, or web). I like to have the ABILITY to expand my storage (something you will never have). I know, apple is not for everyone, it's mostly aimed at mindless sheep that follow the crowd. I personally like to think for myself and I don't follow the mindless advertising of apple.


----------



## BRAVI

You really drank the kool-aid with the anti-apple ads, lol. It's funny how people like you call apple users mindless sheeps when you guys are mostly ignorant. You miss the point that specs are not everything. I would be embarrassed to carry that thick piece of junk around. That's what adding useless ports like USB and card readers does to a tablet.

You say you have no need but it's nice to have the ability yet you will never come close to filling the space. I would rather have a thinner, and lighter tablet and lose something I would never use.

You are about features you might use, I'm about features I do use.

This is like discussing wine with a beer drinker.


----------



## RobertCDF

LoneStarSA said:


> I would be embarrassed to carry that thick piece of junk around. That's what adding useless ports like USB and card readers does to a tablet.


Its 3/16'' thicker than than ipad2 and .02" thicker than the original ipad... not exactly a huge difference. 
As far as battery life goes, all my stuff gets charged over night if it needs it or not I started doing that with my first cell phone 15 years ago, guess what? Because of that I have never had a battery die in the middle of the day because I had to use the device more than I expected.

Sent from my A500 using Contractor Talk


----------



## RhodesHardwood

Macs are the best by far. Anyone who tells you differently probably hasn't given them a chance.


----------



## BRAVI

RobertCDF said:


> Its 3/16'' thicker than than ipad2 and .02" thicker than the original ipad... not exactly a huge difference.
> 
> 
> Sent from my A500 using Contractor Talk


Doesn't seem like a lot but its damn near twice as thick as iPad 2 and 25% heavier.


----------



## RobertCDF

You're still yammering on? My goodness, sorry I don't have time to argue about 3/16" you use yours and convince yourself that you got the best. I on the other hand will have a far more functional product with far more versatility.

You can't deny that apple likes to release products that lack updated technology first to get a bunch of money, then they release a product that has the functionality the first one should have had. Think back to the original iphone, they released it on EDGE!! 3g was almost everywhere, I had a crap samsung flip phone (1 of my phones) with 3g awhile before the iphone came out. They released the original ipad without a camera? they do that crap so they can release a new product that you will run out and buy because now it can finally do what you wanted it to do from the start. Great way to get more money out of people.


----------



## BRAVI

I don't need to convince myself that iPad and iPhone are a better product. I will just continue to laugh at the haters and the next "iPhone killer" while Apple products keep selling like hotcakes. Your Acer will be off the market within a few months due to a lack of sales and you know it. 

If you are proud to break out that Acer in front of a client, I'm happy for you.


----------



## karunnt

Does this shed light on the situation?

Apple charges $2500 for a similar configuration and without a monitor?

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/sys/2371184656.html

I think this guy really sells these out of his bedroom 'cause I've seen this exact same advertisement a year ago. So he must be pricing this to make a profit.

I am getting into iOS development and this is the route I will be going.


----------



## karunnt

The forum shrank the image I uploaded. Here is a clearer one. Hopefully.


----------



## BRAVI

karunnt said:


> Does this shed light on the situation?
> 
> Apple charges $2500 for a similar configuration and without a monitor?
> 
> http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/sys/2371184656.html
> 
> I think this guy really sells these out of his bedroom 'cause I've seen this exact same advertisement a year ago. So he must be pricing this to make a profit.
> 
> I am getting into iOS development and this is the route I will be going.


Hackintoshs are awesome. I would consider that route if you are looking into tower units. There is no doubt you can save some cash going that route and run the awesomeness of OS X. 

For that price though, I would go iMac and then buy a ram and ssd upgrade kit from OWC. You could kill those geekbench numbers that way and have a warranty.


----------



## JustaFramer

Considering Mac parts are high grade PC parts. Any one can build a hackintosh. http://www.hackintosh.com/ 

These last few pages have gotten funny. It has degenerated into my *nix is better than your *nix. 

Since that is the case I will add mine. My Ubuntu 11.04 boot is better than yours. :whistling :laughing:


----------



## BRAVI

I agree about Ubuntu. Good Stuff.


----------



## Chris Johnson

And does everyone remember...the best computer for running Microsoft Windows was an iMac when it first had the ability to flip between Mac and PC


----------



## BRAVI

RobertCDF said:


> airplay does not work on the customers tv (duh, and it's extra hardware/cost), You might think that flash sucks (all apple fanbois say that, it's their only excuse) but it's still widely used on the web so get over it. I don't use others work to sell but MANUFACTURES websites have information that customers WANT TO SEE!!. I've used itunes and it's got the most moronic setup (thus why so many stupid people like it) ever tried winamp? Photo management? It's called using intelligent directory structure, this allows to quickly bring up only what you want when you want. On the acer I prefer quickpic, it's set up to only show business related pics in the categories I want and the way I want.
> 
> You can keep your ipad, I don't care that you like less features but you clearly don't know anything about the acer and honeycomb so maybe you should not trash on useful features that you are not capable of using. (If the ipad had usb and the acer did not you would be touting that as a bonus but it's too hard for you to admit that you got duped by advertising)


You have obviously have never used iPhoto :laughing:

If you are happy dealing with your piece of garbage, more power to you. You watch too many droid commercials. Consider an iPad, it may improve your closing ratio :laughing:


----------



## RobertCDF

LoneStarSA said:


> You have obviously have never used iPhoto :laughing:
> 
> If you are happy *dealing* with your piece of garbage, more power to you. You watch too many droid commercials. Consider an iPad, it may improve your closing ratio :laughing:


Consider a driod, you've been watching too many ipad commercials. Really a piece of garbage? come on you know your reaching... yea that stupid little logo that helps close sales...??? come on. I don't *deal* with my device (that would be needing to jailbreak in order to use) I just USE without having to jailbreak (or root). I have done zero "workarounds" my device functions easily. 

Try picking one up and using it in more than just in best buy (and yes I have used mac all the way back to the IIGS they were crap then and they are crap now.) I've borrowed and used an ipad on numerous occasions (not just in a store) i am not impressed.


----------



## BRAVI

Yes, I believe any acer product is a piece of garbage. However, its funny that people want to rip on Apple. Without them there would be no Acer tablet. Everyone would still be focused on netbooks. Apple creates a marketplace and then everyone comes in trying to de-thrown the king. Nobody built a better MP3 player, and same has happened with phones, and now tablets. 

Everyone hates the guy on top. It's cool, the view from the top is awesome. :clap:


----------



## RobertCDF

LoneStarSA said:


> Yes, I believe any acer product is a piece of garbage. However, its funny that people want to rip on Apple. Without them there would be no Acer tablet. Everyone would still be focused on netbooks. Apple creates a marketplace and then everyone comes in trying to de-thrown the king. Nobody built a better MP3 player, and same has happened with phones, and now tablets.
> 
> Everyone hates the guy on top. It's cool, the view from the top is awesome. :clap:


BS, I had smart phones long before the iphone, android was in development in 2003, I had a diamond rio PMP in 1998 (back when mp3 was barely known), I had a nomad HD based mp3 player (btw you could swap the HD for a larger one). Apple acts like it invented MP3 when it did not. Tablets are not a new invention by apple either, tablet pcs have been in use for years. Once again you watch too many commercials and believe the BS shelled out by their advertising execs.


----------



## BRAVI

I didn't say they invented the devices, but they DID invent the marketplace. How can you really deny that? Do you also believe they have had little effect on the music industry? :blink:


----------



## RobertCDF

There was a market for it long before apple came along, it may have been smaller but there were still plenty of quality products available in all of those categories. Apple just eliminated functionality and made it simple for any moron to use their products. By opening up the market to morons they tapped into a larger market. It makes sense to me, appeal to the largest possible market and you can sell more product. We all know there are far more stupid people in the world than smart people, we know this from driving down the road every day.


----------



## BRAVI

To say it might have been smaller is a ridiculous understatement. Only a moron would think it's smart strategy to market towards a small niche of consumers. As a business man you find their success and strategy repulsive? Do you just hate Apple or do you have the same marketing goals for your deck company? :blink:


----------



## RobertCDF

LoneStarSA said:


> To say it might have been smaller is a ridiculous understatement. Only a moron would think it's smart strategy to market towards a small niche of consumers. As a business man you find their success and strategy repulsive? Do you just hate Apple or do you have the same marketing goals for your deck company? :blink:


And you really think the market would not grow by any bit whatsoever without apples introduction of devices? :laughing:

I try to market to people who appeal to me, I prefer to market to niche markets... primarily those who can afford my services, not crazy, in the neighborhoods I want to work, etc. So yes I prefer to get calls for decks from people who can afford them, not from someone looking to remodel a bathroom for $500. Some might consider it stupid to not meet with every person who calls me. But all the sales techniques in the world doesn't put more money in their bank account to afford our services.


----------



## BRAVI

Just about anyone can afford a $4000 deck. So you should be casting a wide net. Unless you live in a pretty bad market with combined household incomes are averaging below 40k a year. Seriously I hope you realize that decks are soooooo far from a niche market. Don't act like there are few people who could afford installing a deck.

$500 bathroom? Hahaha, we do not do anything under 10k and even those are few and far between. I just signed a 138k kitchen and bathroom deal from someone who found us on his iPad. :laughing:

You are trying to make fun of the wrong remodeler. :no:


----------



## RobertCDF

LoneStarSA said:


> Just about anyone can afford a $4000 deck. So you should be casting a wide net. Unless you live in a pretty bad market with combined household incomes are averaging below 40k a year. Seriously I hope you realize that decks are soooooo far from a niche market. Don't act like there are few people who could afford installing a deck.
> 
> $500 bathroom? Hahaha, we do not do anything under 10k and even those are few and far between. I just signed a 138k kitchen and bathroom deal from someone who found us on his iPad. :laughing:
> 
> You are trying to make fun of the wrong remodeler. :no:


$4,000 deck??? HAHAHA thats funny. 

Our budget deck starts at $10,000 Go ahead and look it up on our facebook its called the $9,999 special. No demo included, no stairs etc, etc. most of the projects range from $25,000 - $50,000+ Singed $27K last night, signed $31K the other day.
http://www.facebook.com/coloradodeckandframing?sk=app_4949752878


----------



## RobertCDF

LoneStarSA said:


> Just about anyone can afford a $4000 deck. So you should be casting a wide net. Unless you live in a pretty bad market with combined household incomes are averaging below 40k a year. Seriously I hope you realize that decks are soooooo far from a niche market. Don't act like there are few people who could afford installing a deck.
> 
> $500 bathroom? Hahaha, we do not do anything under 10k and even those are few and far between. I just signed a 138k kitchen and bathroom deal from someone who found us on his iPad. :laughing:
> 
> You are trying to make fun of the wrong remodeler. :no:


The $500 bathroom is referring to opening the market, but you missed that point. I was not trying to imply you do $500 baths, but you told me not to target niche markets, but when you don't target niche markets then morons think you can remodel a bathroom for $500.


----------



## BRAVI

Even 10k-20k is not that much money for most people to spend on exterior projects. Glad to hear you got projects above that. Most deck companies around here give away decks all day long for 4-5k. You would be shocked how much one of my subcontractors charges and he does amazing work. The competition here for deck and shed companies is sick and most of them make very little on their projects. A good buddy of mine just got out of the deck and shed business and is trying to make the move to windows and siding. 

We are about the same as you. 10k at a bare minimum but most projects hovering around the 50k-80k range.


----------



## BRAVI

RobertCDF said:


> The $500 bathroom is referring to opening the market, but you missed that point. I was not trying to imply you do $500 baths, but you told me not to target niche markets, but when you don't target niche markets then morons think you can remodel a bathroom for $500.


Well I guess I understand what you were trying to say. In this market anything under 5k is a niche market that those bathroom remodel in 3 days guys try to focus on. So really above 10k is more general market in my experience.


----------



## RobertCDF

LoneStarSA said:


> Even 10k-20k is not that much money for most people to spend on exterior projects. Glad to hear you got projects above that. Most deck companies around here give away decks all day long for 4-5k. You would be shocked how much one of my subcontractors charges and he does amazing work. The competition here for deck and shed companies is sick and most of them make very little on their projects. A good buddy of mine just got out of the deck and shed business and is trying to make the move to windows and siding.
> 
> We are about the same as you. 10k at a bare minimum but most projects hovering around the 50k-80k range.


No, it would not surprise me at all, I see a guy on CL listing a 12x16 deck including composite materials for $2,995. Thankfully most people know that something is not on the up & up with that, and the people that don't realize that I don't want as a customer anyways.


----------



## BRAVI

We have at least 3-4 deck companies offering a deck like that for around the same price and they advertise heavily on tv and radio. One guy seriously must have a budget of 5k a week he spends on radio spots. He has every host in town endorsing his decks and he has a special deal for listeners for $3,500 with metal railing. I know its not related to my market but its annoying hearing people de-value something so much to the point consumers think its the norm.


----------



## RobertCDF

LoneStarSA said:


> We have at least 3-4 deck companies offering a deck like that for around the same price and they advertise heavily on tv and radio. One guy seriously must have a budget of 5k a week he spends on radio spots. He has every host in town endorsing his decks and he has a special deal for listeners for $3,500 with metal railing. I know its not related to my market but its annoying hearing people de-value something so much to the point consumers think its the norm.


Holy crap, I thought it was just this one moron, I guess if you blow it out in a day or 2 at tops and since its all the same you can buy in bulk... Still I don't see how it's done... Oh wait I guess you just can't care about quality, level, plumb, square, straight, etc.


----------



## BRAVI

I know 2 out of the 3 have their own lumber yard and like I said, deck labor is cheap here. I know most of their projects are under 3 days. I have no idea what the quality is but I wouldn't think much with that price. Funny thing is, their name has the word quality in it. :laughing:


----------



## RobertCDF

Just like the guys who have integrity in their name (or tag line) that try to cheat the IRS, cheat their employees, etc. I see it all the time "oh well if you pay cash then I don't have to pay taxes on it so I can lower the price" I find it hard that some people go out of their way to find unethical people and then want to do business with them, invite them into their homes, give them keys, etc. It just blows me away.


----------



## BRAVI

So we will agree to disagree about Apple but agree we hate scumbag contractors :laughing:


----------



## RobertCDF

LoneStarSA said:


> So we will agree to disagree about Apple but agree we hate scumbag contractors :laughing:


I was just starting to think we may have gotten off topic a little bit... Ah well what the heck, you use yours to sell against and put the hacks out of business and I will use mine to do the same. :thumbsup:

I have a feeling that most of our posts will get edited or deleted when the mods come along


----------



## moorewarner

http://theoatmeal.com/blog/fix_computer


----------



## mdiack77

In my office we have 3 networked iMac i7 27" computers running vmware fusion to run windows as an application. It worked perfectly. I just WISH that WinTac would make their program for Mac too so I can get rid of windows.

In my trucks we have Toshiba Toughbooks. Work perfectly.


----------



## JarrattProp

RobertCDF said:


> And if mac is the end all savior... Then why do 98% of the users still run a Windows copy? I mean if its superior then why do they insist on running the inferior Windows? Answer me that. And if you say it's because you need to in order to run software then there is no way it is superior. I mean you don't see me running OSX right?


I know this is an old post, but just couldn't resist. Mac is not for everyone. It is more for the creative people such as architects, designers, ect. "98% of the users" as you say still use Windows because thats all they really know. Mac is expensive and most people want something cheap, thus they use Windows. Windows does have more specialty programs, but again Mac has a target market. Just think of Windows as the shotgun and Mac as the M-17 rifle.


----------



## warickrob

Mac rocks everyone , I love Mac. A bit expensive but it's good tho. If u gonna hammer some heavy soft on then I suggest go for PC. But if you dont then go for Mac, it's really good and so convenient.


----------



## moorewarner

Are you Windows folk ready for this?


----------



## MALCO.New.York

moorewarner said:


> Are you Windows folk ready for this?




MSDN

An outside company that is licensed to develop Microsoft Products. NOT an inside development. 

Looks like a great base and I would love to see it on MY PC!


----------



## moorewarner

MALCO.New.York said:


> *MSDN*
> 
> An outside company that is licensed to develop Microsoft Products. NOT an inside development.
> 
> Looks like a great base and I would love to see it on MY PC!


MSDN? Hunh? Where are you getting that from and do you mean *M*icro*S*oft*D*eveloper*N*etwork?

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/ms348103

The link from the Youtube page takes you here,

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2011/jun11/06-01corporatenews.aspx

Looks pretty "internal" to me. :whistling

_"REDMOND, Wash. – June 1, 2011 – Today, at the D9 Conference, we demonstrated the next generation of Windows, internally code-named “Windows 8,” for the first time. Windows 8 is a reimagining of Windows, from the chip to the interface. A Windows 8-based PC is really a new kind of device, one that scales from touch-only small screens through to large screens, with or without a keyboard and mouse.

The demo showed some of the ways we’ve reimagined the interface for a new generation of touch-centric hardware. Fast, fluid and dynamic, the experience has been transformed while keeping the power, flexibility and connectivity of Windows intact. "_

If it looks good to you, then great! You'll be all set. :thumbsup:


----------



## MALCO.New.York

moorewarner said:


> MSDN? Hunh? Where are you getting that from and do you mean *M*icro*S*oft*D*eveloper*N*etwork?
> 
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/ms348103
> 
> The link from the Youtube page takes you here,
> 
> http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2011/jun11/06-01corporatenews.aspx
> 
> Looks pretty "internal" to me. :whistling
> 
> _"REDMOND, Wash. – June 1, 2011 – Today, at the D9 Conference, we demonstrated the next generation of Windows, internally code-named “Windows 8,” for the first time. Windows 8 is a reimagining of Windows, from the chip to the interface. A Windows 8-based PC is really a new kind of device, one that scales from touch-only small screens through to large screens, with or without a keyboard and mouse.
> 
> The demo showed some of the ways we’ve reimagined the interface for a new generation of touch-centric hardware. Fast, fluid and dynamic, the experience has been transformed while keeping the power, flexibility and connectivity of Windows intact. "_
> 
> If it looks good to you, then great! You'll be all set. :thumbsup:



"The Microsoft Developer Network (MSDN) is the portion of Microsoft responsible for managing the firm's relationship with developers and testers: hardware developers interested in the operating system (OS), developers standing on the various OS platforms, developers using the API and scripting languages of Microsoft's applications. The relationship management is situated in assorted media: web sites, newsletters, developer conferences, trade media, blogs and DVD distribution. The life cycle of the relationships ranges from legacy support through evangelizing potential offerings."

Wiki (must be true...lol)

But MSDN is a division of Microsoft Corporation that oversees developers and testers that are not necessarily "under MS's roof" so to speak.

You will notice that Jensen Harris does NOT introduce himself as being with Microsoft, but with MSDN.


----------



## moorewarner

The folks who work at MSDN work at and for MS. Their job is to support and interact with independent third party developers, VARs, OEMs, Corp accounts.

That is not a third party effort. It is MS's effort. All MS products come through MSDN, tech previews, betas, RC's, prior to release.

_"Jensen Harris is Director of Program Management for the Windows User Experience Team._
_He has worked at Microsoft since 1998. Prior to his current job, he was the Group Program Manager of the Microsoft Office User Experience Team, where his team redesigned the user interface for Office 2007 and Office 2010, adding the Ribbon, Live Preview, Backstage View, and other innovations."_


_http://jensenharris.com/about/
_


----------



## RemodelMania

I'll bite... Apple all the way whether you are a simpleton or geek. This may change in the future, but the Apples of today just work without issue for me, but I can also get into command line interface and "go deep" when I need or want to.

I was a PC guy for years, but they just feel like junk when I use them now.

My 2 cents.


----------



## moorewarner

_"You, yes you, can now download a copy of Windows 8. This marks the first time that Microsoft has released a pre-beta version of one of their flagship programs to the general public. I wonder where they got that idea. Could it be from Linux? After all Linux distributions has been making early versions available to the public since Linux started 20-years ago. 

The Windows 8 Developer Preview alpha build, was released shortly after 8 PM Eastern on Tuesday, September 13th. The last time, debuted a similar developers preview of Windows 7 in October 2008, the company limited the early look to attendees at its Professional Developers Conference (PDC). The unwashed general public to wait until next year for a beta . That failed. Copies were leaked to BitTorrent sites within hours."_


http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/windows-8-distribution-takes-a-page-from-linux/9540


Hotshot to the dl,


http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/home/


A wonderful free virtualization program to give it a try with,


http://www.virtualbox.org/


Have fun Windows junkies. :thumbsup:


----------



## wallmaxx

When I get home, I am getting my wife the 27" loaded iMac. That thing rocks. Then I think I'll check out a 17" MBP..........so I can be "cool" at the airport. :laughing:

I was all PC from 1993 until about 3 years ago. I have rebuilt and restored my PCs maybe 8 times.........my macs.........never.

I like that someone doesn't have to "know" computers to use a mac. The OSX UI is very intuitive.

And don't even get me started on my iPad.............I think, for what I do now, I could ditch my work laptop and be fine.

I bought the 50 GB DropBox account and everything of any document importance, I print to PDF, properly label the properties, and save it in DropBox. Then I can import from DB to iBooks on the iPad and voila...a vast digital library of useful PDF's.


----------



## wallmaxx

Here's some of the PDFs I have on hand


----------



## carolinahandyma

wallmaxx said:


> Here's some of the PDFs I have on hand


What case are you using? Seems pretty rugged.


----------



## wallmaxx

carolinahandyma said:


> What case are you using? Seems pretty rugged.


The Griffin Survivor. It's actually MIL-Spec 810-F for water, shock, dust and vibration.


----------



## TBFGhost

moorewarner said:


> There are reasons people choose Apple and reasons folks choose Windows.
> 
> But there is a third choice as well that everyone should at least be aware of, Linux.
> 
> The specific version of Linux I am going to bring up is Ubuntu/Linux.
> 
> http://www.ubuntu.com/
> 
> All three choices have their advantages and disadvantages, which is best depends on your comfort level with computers and what software you want to use.
> 
> Some reasons to consider Ubuntu/Linux.
> 
> 1) Linux is safe and stable. Just like Apples OSX Linux has almost no viruses or spyware, no need to run any of that type of software.
> 
> 2) Linux is incredibly powerful and flexible. Linux runs the majority of the worlds most powerful super computers (it runs almost all of the top ten). It is also the new android OS thet Google is coming out with for smart phones, as well as what runs Tivo and a host of other gadgets. Linux runs a majority of the Web as well, it is probably the most advanced of the three OS's.
> 
> 3) Linux is cheap. Beyond cheap, Linux is actually free. You can legally run your computer, your business, your whole country for free. Linux is what's called Free or Open Source Software (FOSS).
> 
> 3) Linux runs on just about anything. Linux runs on the same hardware that you would run Windows on. It will run on Apple computers. It will run on the computer you are getting ready to get rid of, and may run so well it will feel like a new computer (great to pass on to your kids).
> 
> 4) Linux comes with thousands of free applications. Whatever you are trying to do there are several choices of FOSS application to get it done. The FOSS environment produces Open Office, Firefox, Eclipse, Aptana to name just a few.
> 
> 5) Linux can run Windows and Widows applications. Just like Apple's Boot Camp if you have a Windows application you need to run you can run that application on Windows inside of Linux (that is how I run CAD, Quickbooks, and Adobe software). There are may advantages to running Windows this way. Another way to run Windows applications is through an application called WINE (how I run Sketchup & Cost Estimator), between the two you can run any Windows software you want.
> 
> In many ways Ubuntu/Linux is better than either Windows or Apple OSX and in a few ways it is still catching up. But the fact is you can go to that link above and download it for free and try it on your computer for yourself. The download is what they call a "Live CD" which means you download and burn the ".iso" image to a CD, put it in your CD drive and boot up your computer. Linux will run from the CD without touching your hard drive so you can check it out, if you like it just click to install.
> 
> There is a whole bunch more I could say, but I will leave it there.





I am trying it. :thumbsup:


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## carpenter uk

windows 7 left behind all the old pc problems, ive been running it since it came out and never had a problem like the old OS's
its easier and better value to work with the same platform as the majority imo and that is pc


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## moorewarner

carpenter uk said:


> *windows 7 left behind all the old pc problems*, ive been running it since it came out and never had a problem like the old OS's
> its easier and better value to work with the same platform as the majority imo and that is pc



I have a slighly used bridge I can give you, cheap! :laughing:


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## moorewarner

TBFGhost said:


> I am trying it. :thumbsup:


Sweet! :clap: Which one?

If you run into questions don't frustrate yourself, bring 'em here and I, and/or JustaFramer, will try and assist.


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## moorewarner

moorewarner said:


> Sweet! :clap: Which one?
> 
> If you run into questions don't frustrate yourself, bring 'em here and I, and/or JustaFramer, will try and assist.


If it is Ubuntu you are trying that is a good choice, but this one, "Mint", based off of Ubuntu may be a little closer to what you are used to right out of the box, and have things setup like flash, java, DVD, MP3, right out of the box.

http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php

It's a live CD/DVD as well so you can boot up a computer, just like Ubuntu, and check out the interface and hardware compatibility.


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## TBFGhost

I am on Ubuntu now, everything is running faster...well sorta, but I know some of it is slower b/c I am running off a CD. So if I choose to load this, what happens to windows and all my files? Does it get rid of windows and my files? Which OS boots when the comp is turned on....I am pretty clueless here.

Any general tips or pointers that will help me adjust from windows?


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## moorewarner

TBFGhost said:


> I am on Ubuntu now, everything is running faster...well sorta, but I know some of it is slower b/c I am running off a CD. So if I choose to load this, what happens to windows and all my files? Does it get rid of windows and my files? Which OS boots when the comp is turned on....I am pretty clueless here.
> 
> Any general tips or pointers that will help me adjust from windows?


An answer to the last question first, yes many, the most important ones will have to do with where you get stuck, but first before you install do us both a favor and download a copy of Mint, and give it a boot. Really in the world of Linux the new Ubuntu interface "Unity" is very different from just about all others. It completely changes the User Interface elements that everyone, Linux, Windows, and even Mac users are used to. It is very much closer to a tablet interface or smartphone.

Folks switching to Linux have enough to get used to without having the UI completely different than what everyone is used to.

Having said that if you now want to skip looking at Mint and forge ahead with Ubuntu I'll pipe down on that point, but hopefully Justa will be along to give you some pointers on Ubuntu's Unity interface.

K, on we go. The first bit of good news is that things will run *much* faster when it is installed to the hard drive, unless you have gobs of RAM, in which case it will just run faster. :laughing:

When you install you will have Linux take over free space on your hard drive and install itself alongside Windows. When you start the computer you will be presented with a list that has Linux and windows on it and at that time you can choose which one you want to boot and run. Linux is very good at coexisting with windows.

Cont...


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## moorewarner

There really are a bunch of tips to keep in mind about the differences of Linux to Windows. Probably the two most important are Hardware and software.

First hardware, Windows tries to automagically deal with hardware and often fails. It fails in the sense that you often have to provide a driver, or get a driver, or update a driver, or troubleshoot a driver, but Windows succeeds in that it almost always sees the hardware and notifies you of it's presence and tries to initiate the install routine even if it can't do any thing with it without help from you.

Linux is different in that it also tries to automagically set up hardware and actually in probably 90% of the cases actually succeeds, where Linux fails is its failure to 100% notify you about hardware and give you a facility to deal with getting it setup. What I mean is there is not an equivalent to "Windows Device Manager". Linux has a "Control Panel" similar to Windows but no direct equivalent to Device Manager. And for some things their is no dedicated configuration application in the control panel, for say, scanners.

In software, first you are probably already hip to the fact that Linux has it's own set of applications, just like Mac, just like Windows. Generally speaking you don't run Mac apps on Windows or Windows apps on Mac or either ones apps on Linux.

Cont...


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## TimBean

*Mac*

Go for mac and never come back to PC, Mac OS is the best and you cannot compare it with Windows.


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## ReVisionsWindow

Call me a 'Mac Head', but I would take my MBP over any Windows Machine I've ever set my hands on. Simplicity meets perfection ... 

However, there are many Windows comps that 'get the job done', while costing much less. It's all personal preference -- ease of use, affordability, compatibility, etc. 

But, my money goes to the MAC !


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## moorewarner

Interesting development in Ubuntu/Linux land, a voice controlled "HUD".

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/939


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## wallmaxx

I have messed with Ubuntu a bit but I didn't like it.

Maybe I will try mint..........on mac or pc? I have a pc work Lenovo that might work out well.

It's a wild extreme going from framing to a tech profession. (A lot dryer and less splinters)


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## moorewarner

wallmaxx said:


> I have messed with Ubuntu a bit but I didn't like it.
> 
> Maybe I will try mint..........on mac or pc? I have a pc work Lenovo that might work out well.
> 
> It's a wild extreme going from framing to a tech profession. (A lot dryer and less splinters)


And a hell of a lot easier on the back carrying the tools into the job site. :laughing:


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## moorewarner

moorewarner said:


> _"You, yes you, can now download a copy of Windows 8. This marks the first time that Microsoft has released a pre-beta version of one of their flagship programs to the general public. I wonder where they got that idea. Could it be from Linux? After all Linux distributions has been making early versions available to the public since Linux started 20-years ago.
> 
> The Windows 8 Developer Preview alpha build, was released shortly after 8 PM Eastern on Tuesday, September 13th. The last time, debuted a similar developers preview of Windows 7 in October 2008, the company limited the early look to attendees at its Professional Developers Conference (PDC). The unwashed general public to wait until next year for a beta . That failed. Copies were leaked to BitTorrent sites within hours."_
> 
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/windows-8-distribution-takes-a-page-from-linux/9540
> 
> 
> Hotshot to the dl,
> 
> 
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/home/
> 
> 
> A wonderful free virtualization program to give it a try with,
> 
> 
> http://www.virtualbox.org/
> 
> 
> Have fun Windows junkies. :thumbsup:


Windows 8 tech preview available for download,

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/iso

I have it running currently in Virtualbox. Where has the start menu/applications gone?? :blink:

Curious to hear Windows users take on this one. :whistling


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