# OSHA fall protection roofing



## roofny (Mar 18, 2010)

Ok I spent the last hour searching the forums and found nothing useful on the subject, it seems each time the subject gets brought up it gets hijacked into something else.

Anyway, for the roofers (framers and siders too):
Our area is seeing a lot of residential visits and fines. 
-What are you doing to address the 6 ft fall protection standard? 
-Have you had to increase you prices to accomodate? 
-As an industry, do we have any recourse for these OSHA fines and regulations?


I think many can agree the ropes are a hazard, you can only have 2-3 employees on one side of the roof, even that is a danger/pain. This obviously increases labor and costs. But if you are accounting for it and the next guy isn't that is a large price difference.


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Its something we just have to deal with as a saftey need to protect us for injury or death . Small price to pay for a life . You get use to them like plungein in your gfci outlet on the job for power to the tool . Or makeing sure your ladder is tied off .


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

You may want to think about getting retractable lines. I've never used one but they seem like they would be less in the way.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Yes we have talked about this at length lately. 
The first thing you must know is your state governed by the federal office of OSHA or a state office maybe NYOSHA? So then you know if you fallowing the fed. CFR1926 regulations or state regulations. Either way you may want to go to the fed. building and pick up a CFR1926 most of the state regs. are copied word for word.


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## roofny (Mar 18, 2010)

Well you often get "preachy" advice on this subject from people have not been visited. But if I go that persons job site, there are plenty of people without hardhats, safety glasses, steel toes, working on a ladder over 6 ft, putting 2nd story walls up not harnessed off, digging without shoring and so on. 

Dirtywhiteboy, our state regulations are the same as the fed. 

The thing that I didn't understand about retractable lines if you were working up a roof, is that retractable line constantly tight over your shoulder going right past your face?

Thanks all.


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## packer_rich (Dec 27, 2009)

When you are tied off the lanyard, regardless of type, can only be connected to the "D" ring at the back of your harness. No way it should be over your shoulder.


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## roofny (Mar 18, 2010)

But if you are working facing up a roof, and it is connected on your D ring on your upper back, isn't it taught enough that it runs right up past you (in the way)? I only ask because we use rope grabs and harnesses, where you can give yourself a little bit of slack, and have not yet used a self retracting.


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## packer_rich (Dec 27, 2009)

Sorry, yes you are correct. I have layed the rope under my arm not over my dhoulder. Either way, your right about it being inconveint.


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## RandyB1986 (Jan 2, 2009)

Tell OSHA to go get a warrant, then be gone before they get back. That is common practice around these parts.....


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

Glad they leave us be on res metal roofs........I HATE the leash, always thought it more dangerous then common sence


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

My brothers a roofer to and has been stopped twice by OSHA once before the harness law and once after. The first time OSHA wanted to cite him for my father working for him on the roof. He said he had his own comp/liability/llc/fed id number, etc and that he was his father. OSHA said fine and left the site with no tickets.

Just last week my brother got stopped again this time for his cousin who is also a legal sub with comp/liability/llc/fed id number, etc. The OSHA woman said if he fought her on him being an employee or sub they would both get a harness ticket. After pleading with her for some time she gave him a $5K harness ticket but said he can abate it or something and get it dropped down to $670.

There was a guy with the woman perhaps in training. They left together but he came back to basicly appoligize for the ticket. His story was they were meeting for lunch and she spotted them with no harness so they both stopped. My brother asked why they want all his money and his repsonse was, "We don't want ALL your money, we want SOME of your money". My brother was livid!!!

He called one of the OSHA judges and couldn't get a straight answer on the harness law for a business owner with no employees but was informed if he didn't contest the fine it would be $670.

I was told a sole prep. or llc if working on the roof alone don't need to follow OSHA laws but if your incorporated you do.

My take on it all? Just more government control and a new way to tax the working man.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

dougger222 said:


> My brothers a roofer to and has been stopped twice by OSHA once before the harness law and once after. The first time OSHA wanted to cite him for my father working for him on the roof. He said he had his own comp/liability/llc/fed id number, etc and that he was his father. OSHA said fine and left the site with no tickets.
> 
> Just last week my brother got stopped again this time for his cousin who is also a legal sub with comp/liability/llc/fed id number, etc. The OSHA woman said if he fought her on him being an employee or sub they would both get a harness ticket. After pleading with her for some time she gave him a $5K harness ticket but said he can abate it or something and get it dropped down to $670.
> 
> ...


The best thing to do is go to the training classes and know what is required. Get the CFR1926 book and read it. Get the MI regulations that differ from the federal regulations and learn them. This I was told and I heard stuff will not kelp you when it's time to get busted. But knowing the regs. and fighting them with inspector flaws is the only way. MI is governed by MIOSHA a state office, so if this was in MI OSHA was never there they are a federal office.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dleg/wsh_cet0160_285859_7.pdf


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## bkb0000 (Feb 1, 2009)

dougger222 said:


> My brothers a roofer to and has been stopped twice by OSHA once before the harness law and once after. The first time OSHA wanted to cite him for my father working for him on the roof. He said he had his own comp/liability/llc/fed id number, etc and that he was his father. OSHA said fine and left the site with no tickets.
> 
> Just last week my brother got stopped again this time for his cousin who is also a legal sub with comp/liability/llc/fed id number, etc. The OSHA woman said if he fought her on him being an employee or sub they would both get a harness ticket. After pleading with her for some time she gave him a $5K harness ticket but said he can abate it or something and get it dropped down to $670.
> 
> ...


I don't know if it's Oregon regs or federal, but around these parts, there's only ONE person who can work without fall-gear on a roof, and that's a sole-proprietor contractor. Anyone who subs for him must be compliant. An owner of a corporation (my situation) must be compliant- sub or original contractor.

Being a recreational climber and having some rope-access experience, I have my own system that's totally non-compliant. I use a sport harness and hang directly off my belay loop on a tight low-stretch kernmantle rope, and use a cow's tail in place of positioning hooks for pendulum situations. I've never been stopped, but I'm not required to assist OSHA in any way, so I figure if I ever am, I'll just tell them I'm "the owner," and to **** off.

We'll see how that goes for me

**** OSHA


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

bkb0000 said:


> I don't know if it's Oregon regs or federal, but around these parts, there's only ONE person who can work without fall-gear on a roof, and that's a sole-proprietor contractor.
> **** OSHA


I'd like to see exact reference in the CFR1926 book:whistling Because I've read the whole thing and never saw it:no:


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## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

dougger222 said:


> My brothers a roofer to and has been stopped twice by OSHA once before the harness law and once after. The first time OSHA wanted to cite him for my father working for him on the roof. He said he had his own comp/liability/llc/fed id number, etc and that he was his father. OSHA said fine and left the site with no tickets.
> 
> Just last week my brother got stopped again this time for his cousin who is also a legal sub with comp/liability/llc/fed id number, etc. The OSHA woman said if he fought her on him being an employee or sub they would both get a harness ticket. After pleading with her for some time she gave him a $5K harness ticket but said he can abate it or something and get it dropped down to $670.
> 
> ...


I know it's late but here's my two cents. A few yrs back, I worked 50/50 with a friend who was also licensed and insured and had his FEIN number. I called OSHA to find out the rules for us and was told as long as one isnt working for the other, they would classify us as partners and wouldnt have regulation over either of us. If we had an employee with us, than the rules changed.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

We had OSHA spying on us on a job a couple years ago, my guys could see them looking out of binoculars in a parking lot next to the job. All my guys had just went through the OSHA 10 hour class too.

We were building a large new grocery store and erecting the steel at the time, they had been watching for a couple days. We were 100% tie off, had cables set up on every main frame, self retracting lines for guys walking out purlins. Anyways they couldn't get us on anything and then one day some of the guys went across the street for lunch and when they got back there was a delivery truck there and one if our boom lifts was parked in his way, so when they got back from lunch one of the guys goes over and hops in the lift and just slightly raises it to move it out of the way. The OSHA guy comes over and writes a citation for him not wearing his harness in the lift. I get a notice in the mail about two weeks later for $5000 fine.

I was pissed, that was such bulls**t!! Anyways the notice said if I didn't contest it I could reduce the fine to $750, so I just paid it.


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> I'd like to see exact reference in the CFR1926 book:whistling Because I've read the whole thing and never saw it:no:


https://www.osha.gov/workers.html

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24317

I may be wrong, but I do not think anyone self-employed is not covered through OSHA? Yes its a question statement.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Yea Dan I think you're right and my post was wrong:whistling
The owner can be unsafe but can't have the employees unsafe.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

No, the owner can't be if he as employees, only if he doesn't have employees.


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Not acording to the links I posted.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

Did you read the clarification letter? It says right there pretty specifically


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=DIRECTIVES&p_id=2024 This?

I just skimmed it..I do not see it, can you point to where?


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

You posted it!


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

Just scroll up and tap on the link that says interpretations


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

I do not see where it says if you have employees you are subject to OSHA unless you are creating unsafe conditions for the employees.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24317


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Apparently third times the charm..thanks


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Well then:blink:


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

I think I am too tired to read anymore.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

I don't see it.

Wording within even clarifications and interpretations is not always as black and white as it might be.

Are you referring to this :

"OSHA construction requirements must be met by employers where employees are exposed to a hazard created by a self-employed worker."

If so, it is a statement about the employers obligation to his employees, not to himself.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

"If a construction worker is truly self-employed -- is not an employee -- and has no employees working for him or her, OSHA has no authority to require that individual to abide by OSHA construction requirements."


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

F osha.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

Hahaha


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

QCCI said:


> "If a construction worker is truly self-employed -- is not an employee -- and has no employees working for him or her, OSHA has no authority to require that individual to abide by OSHA construction requirements."


The part at the end still refers to the obligation of the employer to abide by osha regs, meaning provide the safety measures for the employee worker, not the self employed worker.

It doesn't much matter how I read it though, if the compliance officer wants to cite he will no matter what_ I_ think the regs mean.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

Answer: Although OSHA has no authority to issue citations to a self-employed construction worker (with no employees), where a general contractor has hired that individual to work at the site, the general contractor can, by contract, require that individual to abide by the practices set out in OSHA standards. In other words, OSHA's lack of compliance authority does not restrict the general contractor from instituting workplace safety requirements on the individual by contract. Note, though, that OSHA does not have the authority to compel the individual to abide by such contract requirements.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

If you have any employees, you have to abide by the same rules and they will enforce them. Interpret however you want


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

I have a srl.... it is sweet. No slack, no rope to trip on. Fall protection is not going away so we might as well get used to it and adapt to it. :thumbsup:


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

framingpro said:


> i have a srl.... It is sweet. No slack, no rope to trip on. Fall protection is not going away so we might as well get used to it and adapt to it. :thumbsup:


srl?


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

LeeFowler said:


> srl?


self retracting line


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## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

FramingPro said:


> I have a srl.... it is sweet. No slack, no rope to trip on. Fall protection is not going away so we might as well get used to it and adapt to it. :thumbsup:


Can you post a link or brand model info? Im always looking to upgrade safety equip...my gut says if OSHA shows up, it gives a strong impression.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

MattK said:


> Can you post a link or brand model info? Im always looking to upgrade safety equip...my gut says if OSHA shows up, it gives a strong impression.


http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...L7lqy1UcsmMPlOBN16-IIUw&bvm=bv.43148975,d.b2I


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

LeeFowler said:


> srl?


Retractable :blink:


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## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

FramingPro said:


> http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...L7lqy1UcsmMPlOBN16-IIUw&bvm=bv.43148975,d.b2I


Looking at the PDF, I think the FP2 series would be most helpful for us. 33' to 50' range. I think the 33' would be plenty as you would have a side to side radius range of around 55'-60' horizontally depending on the height of the section from gutter to ridge. Also, nothing says you can't have multiple hookup points on longer roofs.

Which model do you use? Costs associated? The link says they're repairable which keeps the costs low.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

You're right you can have multiple connection points, at least we always do.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

MattK said:


> Looking at the PDF, I think the FP2 series would be most helpful for us. 33' to 50' range. I think the 33' would be plenty as you would have a side to side radius range of around 55'-60' horizontally depending on the height of the section from gutter to ridge. Also, nothing says you can't have multiple hookup points on longer roofs.
> 
> Which model do you use? Costs associated? The link says they're repairable which keeps the costs low.


Repairs are usually pretty expensive, this will discourage repairs, so that they do will have the liability of someone using "fixed" safety equipment.
I got mine for $75.. retail price is $767...20' model


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## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

FramingPro said:


> Repairs are usually pretty expensive, this will discourage repairs, so that they do will have the liability of someone using "fixed" safety equipment.
> I got mine for $75.. retail price is $767...20' model


Used? How'd you pull that off


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

MattK said:


> Used? How'd you pull that off


Not used, it was habitat for humanity selling it to me.


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## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

Doing a little research about other SRL's, here is a site that has a few to choose from.

http://simplifiedsafety.com/store/fall-protection/active/connectors/retractables.html


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