# What's a reasonable day's production



## SunshineRoofing (Sep 18, 2008)

from a 3 man crew. One is a 5-6 year experienced roofer , the other two have been working on roofs for a couple years. We just finished day 2 of a 22 sq job - just tear off completed. It really seems that their production has dropped way down this summer. I don't know if it's the heat or just no teamwork or what.

I'm talking about 5/12 pitch roof. Just wondering what some of you guys are getting done.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Pretty sure I could tear that off alone in 2 days.


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## willworkforbeer (Mar 7, 2009)

This sounds like a HO. Back in the day I think I remember doing that 3 man in one day and start shingling.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

Maybe these guys are trying to stretch the job out so the work will last.
You ought to know how long it should take in comfortable weather,add some time if it's been real hot.
Barring any unforseen setbacks or extra repairs that is at max a three day job for 2 men.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Should have been done today, but they have limited experience. It is very tough to teach someone to really "work". Went through plenty of guys who thought they were pretty tough. Come to find out they aren't much of anything outside of a desk job.

Lucky for me, my father was a farmer and a construction worker who worked solo most of his life. You learn how to hustle.


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## J-Peffer (Mar 3, 2007)

3 guys, 22 square tear off in 2 days? 

I'd say it's a little slow.

I'd consider hiring new guys for tear offs, guys with 5-6 years experience should just be paid to shingle. 

I just had 3 guys tear off a 28 square roof, they had it off by 1pm the first day, put down the drip, ice & water, felt, cut the ridge and had shingles delivered, everyone was done by 5pm.

I have a hard, hard time finding good workers, really hard. I've just come to accept, I'm going to be going through a lot of employees. I try to keep a good shingler happy, but you can train a monkey to tear off.


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## Young_Buck (Jul 19, 2009)

I seriously do not understand how you guys say you get 22 square ripped off inside a day.

I just did some the slickest, fastest demo I've ever seen. Crew of 4 (2 on shovels, 2 hauling junk to the dumpster). We demo'd 30 square in about 2 days. And that's a roof that's stapled down.

Are you guys not factoring in clean up, or leaving out the time you spend pullling/setting nails?


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## willworkforbeer (Mar 7, 2009)

Young_Buck said:


> I seriously do not understand how you guys say you get 22 square ripped off inside a day.
> 
> I just did some the slickest, fastest demo I've ever seen. Crew of 4 (2 on shovels, 2 hauling junk to the dumpster). We demo'd 30 square in about 2 days. And that's a roof that's stapled down.
> 
> Are you guys not factoring in clean up, or leaving out the time you spend pullling/setting nails?


You probably havent worked on a crew that required that you pack up two bundles at a time either.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

A good rule of thumb is 1 square per hour per man off and on, one layer, walkable. 22 square should take one guy 22 hours. There are a ton of factors, with weather being the biggest one.

Worked along side many crews, and man for man, haven't seen much to impress me. There have been a few though. The bigger the crew, the slower they are man for man.

I usually try to work hard and get done in 6 hour days. 12 hour days are for framers and siders.

Most guys do good for a few years, then they become lazy and have others do their work. That's when quality suffers. Most of it is due to not being able to pay enough. 

It takes a few years to get enough experience and confidence to do work efficiently. Sure, any guy can learn how to line up shingles and nail them down, but they may not be experienced roofers. I've been doing this stuff for 14 years now, and still have questions on some things. I'm sure guys that have been around even longer can say the same.....if they are honest.

I also don't agree with "any monkey can tear off shingles". Obviously you haven't been around the trades long enough.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

willworkforbeer said:


> You probably havent worked on a crew that required that you pack up two bundles at a time either.


If someone demanded I pack 2 bundles at a time I'd tell 'em to get bent.


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## Young_Buck (Jul 19, 2009)

If you can do 2 bundles safely, more power to you and your insane 160lbs hucking buddies.

My ladder isn't rated for that much weight. Neither is my back. I'm 23 years old, and I've been doing this for 10 years. There is no safe way for me to throw 160 pounds on my shoulder and go up a ladder. Anyone who "requires" someone to put themselves at risk like that can enjoy the site of my truck backing off their jobsite.


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## J-Peffer (Mar 3, 2007)

Young_Buck said:


> If you can do 2 bundles safely, more power to you and your insane 160lbs hucking buddies.
> 
> My ladder isn't rated for that much weight. Neither is my back. I'm 23 years old, and I've been doing this for 10 years. There is no safe way for me to throw 160 pounds on my shoulder and go up a ladder. Anyone who "requires" someone to put themselves at risk like that can enjoy the site of my truck backing off their jobsite.


I've done 2 bundles, just to do it, but going up the ladder all I could feel was the compression of my vertebra all the way down my spine each step. I figured I squat a hell of a lot more than that at the gym, but it's way different when it's across a shoulder instead of across your back. 

I'm 6', 210lbs and low body fat (sub 10%), I weight train/body build and I could carry 2 up, but the time it takes to do it, I can make 2 trips just as fast with half the effort, it just does not make any sense for anyone to do it IMO. 90% of the jobs done, I show up to help unload the truck, but 95% of them we have delivered on the roof.


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

Two bundles...GFY...."let me see you do it"

there's too many factors that amount to how much gets done. Time management is so important. Bottom line is how much can be torn off and secured before you leave.....weather, repairs, valleys etc....5 yrs experience should know the ropes.

We had a rocky summer here as far as rain goes. Check the weather in the AM, estimate what you can do, then you're committed to finish whatever you chose to bite off...watch the weather and be prepared for plan B....Maybe you stay later then planned, or are fortunate enough to get more done.

I don't care....I will not work 'till sundown. I have a life and I want it to last.

I think the OP was too vague to decide if the crew stayed within average tear off parameters. I vote HO.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

That's really slow.

A few weeks ago had 5 tear off and put on 23 squares house 2 story garage one story detached 4/12 one layer totaly cleaned up in 6.25 hours. Last Summer got a 22sq tear off done and cleaned up in 4.5 hours, we had 8 of us those, 4 installers with 15-35 years experiance each and 4 tenders. As far as experiance with tenders that don't matter too much, that is as long as they can "hustle" and are not complete idiots. Joe knows what I mean!

3 guys with 7 years total experiance aint saying much for a roofing crew!!! I guess I was there once though...


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## johnk (Apr 23, 2007)

Young_Buck said:


> I seriously do not understand how you guys say you get 22 square ripped off inside a day.
> 
> I just did some the slickest, fastest demo I've ever seen. Crew of 4 (2 on shovels, 2 hauling junk to the dumpster). We demo'd 30 square in about 2 days. And that's a roof that's stapled down.
> 
> Are you guys not factoring in clean up, or leaving out the time you spend pullling/setting nails?


One layer tears,walkable 20-25 sq,crew of 4 -Tore off,papered,shingled,cleaned-up and paid 1 day.Do it all the time.25-30 sq of cedar,tore off,sheeted,papered,same crew-2 days.And I didnt think we were that fast.Any longer and your profits dwindle.It always goes faster when the boss sticks around,lol.


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## lavrans (Jul 6, 2008)

I'd say anyone who's packing bundles needs to find a yard with a boom truck. It's a stupid waste of time to stock a roof from the ground. I understand there are a few remote areas that don't have that service, but I've never been to a city that didn't have a yard with trucks that can deliver to the roof.

2 days for 3 guys is way too slow. Perhaps if that includes a bunch of repairs, but not just tear off. Heat can slow you down, but not that much.


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## CScalf (Dec 18, 2008)

Rule of thumb walkable roof, two guys in can tear off and hand nail 8 sq in 8 hours:thumbsup:


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## NNY (Aug 29, 2009)

CScalf said:


> Rule of thumb walkable roof, two guys in can tear off and hand nail 8 sq in 8 hours:thumbsup:


I would say that would be a good way to estimate your jobs and if you can get a little better time , more profit . I have said for years that I am not doing my own roofs any more and will sub them out . This year I have finally done that and it's great . I always loved to pack two at least once on roof job and to show the "kids" I am still able to hold my own . I would never require it from an employee , only for bragging rights . Those days are officially over !:thumbup:


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## SunshineRoofing (Sep 18, 2008)

Thanks for the input guys - just like I thought though, input is pretty varied. I think my problem is mainly one guy - he's the one with the most experience. Gonna be looking for another to take his place I think.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Why not get in there and show 'em how it's done, big guy?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

1 square per man hour on average for an ez walk 1 layer tear off and put back, like a ranch or something. That's 30 mins t.o. and 30 mins install. 20 squares = 20 man hours. 22 squares divided by 3 men = 1 8 hour day complete. Add a 4th man to clean up trash if you have to haul trash to the dumpster. 

Basically the same thing CsCalf said.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

I figure 2.5 hours per square, two layers, walkable, start to finish, including details, if there is not too much detail work. More walls and chimenys means more time. Chimney flashings are figured separately and added to the project.

The leader sets the pace. Whether this is you or your employee, only you know.


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## johnk (Apr 23, 2007)

Grumpy said:


> 1 square per man hour on average for an ez walk 1 layer tear off and put back, like a ranch or something. That's 30 mins t.o. and 30 mins install. 20 squares = 20 man hours. 22 squares divided by 3 men = 1 8 hour day complete. Add a 4th man to clean up trash if you have to haul trash to the dumpster.
> 
> Basically the same thing CsCalf said.


Exactly what I figure


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## R.T.Fahey (Sep 13, 2009)

That size job is tore off in one day and reroofed the next day. Crew of 3.


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

Where i live roofers showup at 7am. They leave when roof is ready for shingles. Also shingles have been delivered and are stacked on the ridge. Next morning there shingling. My neighbor just had a new roof put on his house. He gets a high five. Went with landmark 30's. There the best looking shingles on the market in my oppion. I really like there shadow lines. He must know someone in roofing and requested those. Where i live all the roofers push gaf timberlines which i rank 3rd. Landmark than tamko than gaf. Funny the neighbor next to him had a roof put on last summer went with gaf timberlines. If you look at both roofs the landmarks blow away the timberlines in appearance because of there shadow lines.


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## J-Peffer (Mar 3, 2007)

Grumpy said:


> 1 square per man hour on average for an ez walk 1 layer tear off and put back, like a ranch or something. That's 30 mins t.o. and 30 mins install. 20 squares = 20 man hours. 22 squares divided by 3 men = 1 8 hour day complete. Add a 4th man to clean up trash if you have to haul trash to the dumpster.
> 
> Basically the same thing CsCalf said.



I duno if we could do that, 3 guys, 22 square off and on in 8 hours? Pull in at 6 am, pulling out at 3pm with a 1 hour lunch...

We've done a 30 square, but we had 3 guys tearing off, and an extra guy to shingle. But it was ideal, everything went perfect and the roof was stapled down with really short staples. Did not even need a shovel some of the time, just peel back big sections.


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## Vince_B (May 9, 2008)

SunshineRoofing said:


> from a 3 man crew. One is a 5-6 year experienced roofer , the other two have been working on roofs for a couple years. We just finished day 2 of a 22 sq job - just tear off completed. It really seems that their production has dropped way down this summer. I don't know if it's the heat or just no teamwork or what.
> 
> I'm talking about 5/12 pitch roof. Just wondering what some of you guys are getting done.


Their production has dropped this summer? In Florida? I've never worked on a roof in the summer in Florida but I'm guessing the heat.

In the real world an hourly three man crew is going to have about 16 hours each on their time cards, so two days.


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## bmaurice (Sep 15, 2009)

i noticed something interesting. last week i was as sick as a dog, i was useless labor wise, just their to make sure no one screwed anything up and to give direction. i noticed since i wasnt humping like i usualy do, all the guys were working like a bunch of union workers. no matter how much i told them to pump it up! then friday was my first day where started to feel a lot better. so i fired up my turbo engines, and started to bang **** out :furious:. and wouldnt you know i noticed the guys for the first time all week actually working like they had a pair. so next time im sick im just going to give them time off. it wasnt even worth it. not to mention i probably wouldnt be sick for as long if i got a whole day of rest.


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## kubie (Oct 19, 2008)

4 of us can do at least 25 sq/day without busting our tails.




guess it depends on how easy the shingles come off.


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## jstange2 (Oct 25, 2008)

Wow. We've been doing 22-26 sq. hail damage jobs starting at 6:30 in the morning and we are leaving with the ground and gutters cleaner than when we started by 3:00 in the afternoon. Usually 3, sometimes 4 guys.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

That's 9 hours times 3 guys is 27 man hours. Should be able to do 22-26 square rather easy in that time period. 1 man hour per square.


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## jstange2 (Oct 25, 2008)

MJW said:


> That's 9 hours times 3 guys is 27 man hours. Should be able to do 22-26 square rather easy in that time period. 1 man hour per square.


Actually 8.5 hours minus a half hour lunch. 8 hours total.


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## apehangeralfy (Oct 26, 2008)

There never the same, every one is different... the felt usually takes longer to get off than the shingles... when re-nailing the substrate sometimes the guns will not drive the ring shanks flush so you end up chasing the gun with a hammer... rain can pop up at almost anytime after lunch with no warning... 

I would figure it for 2 days off, dried in and metaled... then a day off for inspection... 1 day back on.

This is FLORIDA and right now is the hottest time of the year in one of the hottest states... in never got under 75 degrees last week, you break a sweat getting in the truck in the morning... this is practice for hell!!!!! :laughing:


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

J-Peffer said:


> I duno if we could do that, 3 guys, 22 square off and on in 8 hours? Pull in at 6 am, pulling out at 3pm with a 1 hour lunch...
> 
> We've done a 30 square, but we had 3 guys tearing off, and an extra guy to shingle. But it was ideal, everything went perfect and the roof was stapled down with really short staples. Did not even need a shovel some of the time, just peel back big sections.


What I posted is the production I expect and consistently get on an ez walkable roof time and time again. It's not outside the norm for a crew that roofs every day to have the muscle memory from the constant repititaion to be even faster. On very large jobs our production increases even further, and we can throw down more squares per day than the average 1 per hour. We did a 12/12 church and we were getting better than 1 square an hour on a 12/12, but it was 200+ squares. Lots of open field means you can fly and not have to constantly stop for penetrations or to start a new row etc.. 

Sure on a really hot or really cold day I do expect production to drop.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Do you guys pull nails, replace flashings, renail the deck, set the proper amount of ventilation and whatnot for those production rates?

What about on plank?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Yes aaron, you know we do it right, pulling nails is a must. Tuning up the deck is a must. Fixing rotten wood would add to production time of coarse. Although in those production rates chimney and raggled wall flashings are not included. A chimney is a one man hour hour deal. Plank decking (not spaced) may add to the tear off just slightly but not much worth really counting. 

At your production rates, you need to hire some shinglers and stick to the low slope yourself  If you were shingling 4-5 days a week you'd be much faster than 2-3 man hours per square. I couldn't make money at those production rates. 

For the record I am not saying that "I" can bang down a square in 30 mins. I know I can not. I try not to touch tools if I don't have to  But I am saying my roofers who shingle every day can easily do it. Shingling is all about repitition, muscle memory, finding a groove and flying with it. Infact it always seems like the job is taking too long until they start shingling, then if you blink you might miss a square go down. The last company I worked for was much faster at tear off than install. My current crew is faster at the install than the tear off, but at the end of the day it all works out the same. 

I had a crew that I paid by the hour and I was getting production rates like you Aaron, then I let the guys go because I wasn't making any money. One started his own company (the guy you used once or twice too) and he did a few jobs for me as a sub and I was getting production rates like I am used to. The difference... pay a man by the hour and he slows down. Pay him by the piece and he speeds up. Same man, basically the same roof, twice as fast.... hmmm makes you wonder.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

You can fabricate and install a chimney flashing in an hour?

I call Bullsh_t!


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

So you can load trucks, setup job, tear off, pull all nails, renail the entire deck, IWS, felt, install shngle system, vents, fabricate and install chimeny flashing, proper ventilation, 60 squares on plank, in out and done 7 guys in one day? 

I call BullSh_t.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

oh, And take down, travel, and unload? Still call bullsh_t.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Aaron, Can "I" fabricate and isntall a chimney flashing in an hour? No,. Maybe 2 hours, maybe 1 1/2 hours. Can it be done? I have had numerous guys who could bend, grind, raggle, install and caulk in an hour flat. You can call bull chit all you want, I'm willing to bet numerous guys here will agree with me. Just count the number of guys above already agreeing: MJW, JohnK, Kubie, CsCalf. This would be a common brick, single flu chimney BTW. 

Travel was never included in my math. Travel is always a seperate line item. We're talking installation rates here, not drive time. As for unload, why would you unload if you needed the same tools the next day? There is no load/unload when you do the same thing daily, regardless of what that thing is. Leave it in the truck. Also cutting in a ridge vent is extra too. 

First off 60 squares I would not try to tackle in 1 day and a 7 man crew is about the largest I'd ever want to see on a job. I'd prefer the 4 or 5 man crew do the job in 2 days. 60 squares is alot to have open if a freak chance rain comes our way. I know what you're saying now "Ahh but Grumpy you're changing your story now. In 2 days by your math they should do 80 squares." But that's regardless of the argument here. I'm just telling it like it is, I wouldn't ever try for 60 squares in a day. The other question is you said 7 men, no 7 men can not do it but 7 shingle roofers can. Helpers add little value beyond tear off and clean up and staging of material. Therefore I don't have 7 "roofers" so I wouldn't dare try it. 

Could it be done? Numbers don't lie man. It IS possible. I was actually chit chatting with my old boss about this thread this morning. He doesn't come to this site, but I was telling him about some other guys production times. He told me one of his guys was banging down 3 squares an hour on a new construction that was already felted. 

You're welcome to come watch my guys work one day on the next shingle job. I have one coming up in Glenview next week but it's a 25 square cut-up. I do not expect them to get a square an hour on this one. We just did a 22 square 2 layer ranch tear off last week. 3 men, start 7:30 am, setup tarps ladders etc, 8-8:15 am. Completed tear off and ready for wood inspection by about 11:30 or so. The whole job was completed in 1 working day by 3 men, no chimney was included but we did fabricate a custom fascia intake vent at about 15' of fascia which included removing the gutter and fascia board and remounting them after blocking out the rafters. This was on plywood BTW and the dumpster was directly next to the building. Again this was a 2 layer tear off also. I think they pulled off the job at about 4 PM. That was better than I bid when counting the custom fascia vent and the 2nd layer of tear. 

I have another one coming up in about a week week-and-a-half. *I'll put my money where my mouth is too if you feel like betting. * It's 36 squares, 1 layer tear off. Plus 1.3 square of starter and 1.3 square of hip. Dumpster in the drive way. 5/12 pitch. ridge vent. 3 chimneys. 5 men will have this done in a day most likely 9 hour day, no problem. 

Here is another case study. My own home. 24 squares counting hip ridge starters. 1 layer rip 5/12 on planks. There was quite a bit of rotten wood to replace. On the 2nd day all that was left to be done was the chimney flash, kitchen, and bathroom vent. They also tore off the gutters which was a ***** since someone used massive 3" long lag bolts to fasten them in place.

I know it's human nature to lie and exagerate ones accomplishments but what I am saying is not that far off from what many others are saying AND I'm willing to bet on it. Infact I've been wanting a time-lapse camera to put on my job sites to snap a pic ever 30 minutes. I actually wanted it so that I could make a video but it'd prove my point also. Unfortunately none of my cameras have this feature.


Just watch that random shingle crew working in your neighborhood next time you see them. And check their start and stop times. BTW what was Andres banging down for you when he did those couple jobs for you? I know he and his guys are capable of the production I've "claimed" above although their quality leaves something to be desired.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> Is everyone done swinging their short sticks at each other yet?


That soooo reminds me of Dexter Saint Jock! :lol:

http://www.pp2g.tv/vYHl9Y3E_.aspx




> 2nd gen, you talk about a helper....you pick them up at the local Home Depot or at the bus stop in front of their house after school?


Actually, I just put my brother-in-law and his buddy to work who just got laid off at the plant that they were working. 

:thumbsup:




> I remember when I was considered a lowly roofer....the bottom of the barrel in construction trades. Now, every framer and plumber is a roofer too. Kinda funny to me.


To me, a Roofer only does Roofing. Once they begin to do everything else, then they become General Contractors (not Roofers who do Siding, etc...). 

I've known guys who just do Siding. They'll come in and blow a house out in a day or two (typical 1 family deal).

I know Roofers who do the same with a Roof. 

I've learned long ago...the more you focus on one thing, the better and more efficient you become at it (that is "if" you are the one doing the work).


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

<<<<<<<I've known guys who just do Siding. They'll come in and blow a house out in a day or two (typical 1 family deal).>>>>>>>>>

Been there done that!:thumbsup:

The more you do the faster and better you should be.:whistling:whistling


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

2ndGen said:


> I've learned long ago...the more you focus on one thing, the better and more efficient you become at it (that is "if" you are the one doing the work).



Like deciding which brand gun to buy every year. :laughing:

We do all our own work, just licensed as GC.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> Like deciding which brand gun to buy every year. :laughing:
> 
> We do all our own work, just licensed as GC.


:laughing:

I keep looking for an excuse to try out a Bosch or Hitachi gun 
(I'm such a TOOL WHORE! :lol: ), but my frickin' Bostitches WON"T die! 

I had one fail me...after having fallen from 3 stories onto a concrete driveway 1 too many times in 35 degree weather, it finally gave out (meaning that it functioned, but it would leave a nail proud every square or so). It's magazine got bent to the side which I unbent with the head of my hatchet and a pry bar and went back to work. I still sold it for $175. I can't cry really. 

When it comes to tools, I'm brand promiscuous. 
I'm loyal when a brand is good (Bostitch, Bosch, etc...), 
but I still keep a roving eye! :shifty:



.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

2ndGen, I have found that a lot of homeowners really only want to deal with as few contractors as they have to. That is why we do the exterior as a whole although roofing is our main focus. We have gone quite a few times to fix mistakes made by guys who focus only on siding so I would have to say that saying quality is less by guys who focus on more than one thing is a false statement. Quality only lessens if the person who is doing it just truly doesnt care. Thats my opinion.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Framer53 said:


> <<<<<<<I've known guys who just do Siding. They'll come in and blow a house out in a day or two (typical 1 family deal).>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Been there done that!:thumbsup:
> 
> The more you do the faster and better you should be.:whistling:whistling


Truth be told, even after a quarter of a century of Roofing, I still, if I don't do any physical work for a while, have to get back into the swing of things when I first go back up on a roof. 

At first, my "roofing muscles" (those I use mostly just when roofing) have to be reawakened. Then, I have to get warmed up (first day, I work at a leisurely pace). But once I'm loose, I'm flying again. 

And, I have to literally work at being "good" again. 

My initial cuts (valleys, rakes, etc...) will not be nice and straight. 
They'll be straight enough from the ground, but on the roof, it's noticeable.
And I get mad! I get heated! I get frustrated! And I work whatever I was doing until it's nice and straight from on the roof. I just can't let it go.

Again..."roofing muscles". 

Thing is, at 40, I get achy when I don't work. I'm probably going to be like my old man. He started getting sick when he retired in his 40's and ended up going back to work (he put in another 25 years on the roof). 

But, I have to say this (and this is true), I'm much stronger now than when I was in my 20's or even in my 30's. And I'm not the only one...a lot of Old Timers told me that Roofing is one trade that keeps you strong. 

You just have to be smart enough to know when to quit (when your back starts to give out). I have resolved to stop working when it is evident that it's time to put down the gun. But until then, I'm going to milk it for all it's worth. With any luck, I'll have another 25 productive years myself.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> 2ndGen, I have found that a lot of homeowners really only want to deal with as few contractors as they have to. That is why we do the exterior as a whole although roofing is our main focus. We have gone quite a few times to fix mistakes made by guys who focus only on siding so I would have to say that saying quality is less by guys who focus on more than one thing is a false statement. Quality only lessens if the person who is doing it just truly doesnt care. Thats my opinion.


Agreed. 

"Just because" someone only does siding or roofing or any particular trade, that in and of itself does not guarantee that they are any good at it. One could do something for 25 years and just be doing it wrong for 25 years.

What I've found (for me) is that by concentrating in one field, I streamline my expenses and my crew becomes radically efficient. I know a lot of Roofers who don't like to do Siding and will grudgingly do Gutter work. For me, it's the going from easy work to hard work then back to easy work thing. I'd rather work one way all the time (even if it's hard). I personally don't like to do Siding. And Gutter work is like a day off for me. 

I think it's smart to (especially in these days) be diversified. If you already have the insurance for it (Roofing), might as well do lesser dangerous jobs and milk that too. Mo' money, mo' money, mo' money!  Plus, you keep a good crew (or crews) busy when Roofing gets light or vice/versa. 

It's just not for me. I was Pre-Law before I went into business Roofing. I was born to Roof. I used to think that it was because my father was a Roofer and I fought it (becoming a Roofer myself) and he insisted that I go to college and work my mind (doctor, lawyer, accountant, blah, blah, blah...). 

But! I did a "side job" just before heading off to state university. 

And I got bit and bit hard.

While my buddies were out chasing tail, I was in my dorm literally drawing trucks with my company name on them and designing my company logo.

After about 6 weeks, I just came back home, sold my Trans Am and got rid of my Miami Vice clothes and bought my first Pick-Up Truck at 19 years old. Designed my own flyers, got licensed and insured and put the 5 years I worked under my father to good use.

But that's just me. 

That was my route. 

We all have out own paths.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> 2ndGen, I have found that a lot of homeowners really only want to deal with as few contractors as they have to. That is why we do the exterior as a whole although roofing is our main focus. We have gone quite a few times to fix mistakes made by guys who focus only on siding so I would have to say that saying quality is less by guys who focus on more than one thing is a false statement. Quality only lessens if the person who is doing it just truly doesnt care. Thats my opinion.


Ok, I should have given some qualifiers.
I hate roofing, love siding. I can perform or rather could perform with the best of them. 

I found that hiring roofers to roof and siders to side always worked out better.
If you only have one crew, you can't do that. I understand that.
As far as quality being better or less was not the point.:thumbsup:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Framer53 said:


> Ok, I should have given some qualifiers.
> I hate roofing, love siding. I can perform or rather could perform with the best of them.
> 
> I found that hiring roofers to roof and siders to side always worked out better.
> ...


Exactly.

I'd rather have 1 siding crew and 1 roofing crew that are great in their fields than a roofing crew that does siding "ok" or vice/versa. 

It is possible for one crew to do both great? 

Of course. 

But I haven't met that crew yet.



Today (especially in NY), contractors want employees that "do it all" (roofing, masonry, painting, fencing, gutters, windows, siding, etc...). The only ones who do that (generally speaking) are day laborers who bounce from contractor to contractor picking up different skills. 

There were times that I just wanted to have a simple job (working for someone else) because I couldn't find good Roofers, so I thought HEY! if good Roofers are so hard to find, I must be worth gold to a smart contractor! But nope...I was overqualified where ever I'd apply. They knew they couldn't dare pay me $10./hour.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

2ndGen said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I'd rather have 1 siding crew and 1 roofing crew that are great in their fields than a roofing crew that does siding "ok" or vice/versa.
> 
> ...


Good roofers are hard to find, that I guarentee. I used to have 2 that I would ride a little, get up on the roof with them and lay about 4 or 5 squares in an hour or hour and 1/2. What they never figured out was that I would leave and spend a couple of hours relaxing!:thumbsup:
Used to irritate them, they never figured out how the boss, who strapped on the tool belt about once a week could beat them.

That being said, I hated roofing. I am 6'7" and it to me was backbreaking.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Framer53 said:


> Good roofers are hard to find, that I guarentee. I used to have 2 that I would ride a little, get up on the roof with them and lay about 4 or 5 squares in an hour or hour and 1/2. What they never figured out was that I would leave and spend a couple of hours relaxing!:thumbsup:
> Used to irritate them, they never figured out how the boss, who strapped on the tool belt about once a week could beat them.
> 
> That being said, I hated roofing. I am 6'7" and it to me was backbreaking.


:laughing:

Me too!


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

2ndGen, I feel like you are an older version of me since your story is basically the same as mine for how you got started. Grandpas did it, uncles did it, dad roofed and brothers do it. I was supposed to be the brains and am still only a few credits away from a degree. Anyways, We use to have one good roofing crew and one good siding crew until things slowed down early this year. Now I am very fortunate to have one good crew that can do both very well and since it took 40 plus guys to find these 4, they get paid well enough not to want to leave.

The "Do-It-All" are the guys who scare me. Not sure why but it seems like they are the Jacks of All Trades and Masters of None types.

While in a recent argument and while I thought about leaving the company I currently work for, although in the future when I learn enough of all aspects of the business I will be taking over (Supposably) I sent out resume after resume and recieved no calls. I still see the same people posting looking for employees. Luckily for me that I did not get a call and have since learned to cool my young temper.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Wow Framer, Give me a few inches. That height mustve made it hard but I am sure it helps when you dont have to bring out a ladder for some of the work you do. The owner (my boss) put his belt on last week for the first time since spring and I couldn't understand it. How am I this efficient and this old man can still put the screws to me. Damn near made me want to get off the roof and put the ladder on my truck and go home for the day.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> 2ndGen, I feel like you are an older version of me since your story is basically the same as mine for how you got started. Grandpas did it, uncles did it, dad roofed and brothers do it. I was supposed to be the brains and am still only a few credits away from a degree.


Good stock! :thumbsup:






> Anyways, We use to have one good roofing crew and one good siding crew until things slowed down early this year. Now I am very fortunate to have one good crew that can do both very well and since it took 40 plus guys to find these 4, they get paid well enough not to want to leave.


Yep, contractors have to have a revolving door in their shop. 

I had to go through a ton of guys myself. 

As for your good fortune, I would say that you created that good fortune (paying well is smart). 

I tell guys I bring to work I'd rather have mechanics than laborers. 
I'd rather pay them twice as much as a laborer if they produced for me. 
But, it's hard to find good Roofers. 






> The "Do-It-All" are the guys who scare me. Not sure why but it seems like they are the Jacks of All Trades and Masters of None types.


That's what killed the industry 'round my parts. 

And the quality of the roofs and the siding jobs? 

Pure garbage. 

I'm a jack of one trade...after 26 years, could I call myself a master? 

Nahhh. My old man taught me that lesson at 21 when I laid up my first perfect roof. Everything up until then was passable, but I remember calling him and telling him about my first perfectly perfect roof and he told me "See! I told you you don't know everything and you never will! In roofing, you will always be learning. There will always be new systems. Don't ever feel like you've mastered anything."

It's cool having him around to bounce things off of. He still surprises me. I'd think I'd bring up a situation that he possibly can't help me with, and in less than a second after I consult with him, he has the answer. He is a Guru. But he won't let me call him that. 





> While in a recent argument and while I thought about leaving the company I currently work for, although in the future when I learn enough of all aspects of the business I will be taking over (Supposably) I sent out resume after resume and recieved no calls. I still see the same people posting looking for employees. Luckily for me that I did not get a call and have since learned to cool my young temper.


It's hard out there for Roofers (not "guys who do roofing"...big difference). 

I had to move to get myself back to work productively. 

It's hard for everybody. 

But eventually, the cream rises to the top and you'll be in a better place BB. 

Just don't ever undervalue yourself. 

Keep your pride while staying humble and eventually, fate will either match you with the perfect employer or maybe you'll go out on your own. 

Some advice: Work for others as much as you can and learn from their mistakes. While my old man taught me Roofing, he couldn't teach me business (that was my grandfather's specialty and he wasn't around anymore...I guess, I'm sort of a hybrid of my grandpa and my pop). I had to learn myself and the hard way. 

Here...read up on this: 

http://www.rd.com/make-it-matter-ma...hool-dropout-to-billionaire/article44672.html

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/54/J389.html

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20061201/entrepreneur-hendricks.html


:thumbsup:


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Wow Framer, Give me a few inches. That height mustve made it hard but I am sure it helps when you dont have to bring out a ladder for some of the work you do. The owner (my boss) put his belt on last week for the first time since spring and I couldn't understand it. How am I this efficient and this old man can still put the screws to me. Damn near made me want to get off the roof and put the ladder on my truck and go home for the day.


I am not able to work long anymore, disabled, but I bet I still could lay some shingles down, you would have to call a crane though, after I collapsed:thumbsup:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Wow Framer, Give me a few inches. That height mustve made it hard but I am sure it helps when you dont have to bring out a ladder for some of the work you do. The owner (my boss) put his belt on last week for the first time since spring and I couldn't understand it. How am I this efficient and this old man can still put the screws to me. Damn near made me want to get off the roof and put the ladder on my truck and go home for the day.


:laughing:

That's how we do, hey Framer?

Ride them youngin's!

Me and my old man did a roof last year and he STILL rode me like a donkey!

:laughing:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Framer53 said:


> I am not able to work long anymore, disabled, but I bet I still could lay some shingles down, you would have to call a crane though, after I collapsed:thumbsup:


At 6'7", you could just "step off" of the roof! 

:laughing:


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Another thing, age helps, you have learned how to move to be the most efficient.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Thanks for all that information. I think I got lucky and have found the perfect company for my current situation and where I plan to be. Like I stated in a different post, the owner was my uncles foreman for years and I was pretty much "his" laborer. At the time I was 19 in college and he offered me more money when he started his own so I went. He taught me everything he knew and finally last year found it time for me to be in a position to make company decisions and SLOWLY take over his duties while finding someone to SLOWLY take over mine. I am very grateful to be in the situation I am in especially since I actually enjoy the work.

As far as knowing everything? I never will. Coming to this website everyday makes me realize there will always be something to learn. That much I have already figured out. I will never undervalue myself. I consider myself to be a different breed of roofer. I am drug and alcohol free, mature for only being in my midish 20's and have a hard work ethic that I have been taught. I think that has a lot to do with my success so far in the trades. Although I am not the owner, I usually find myself thinking about work after work. I am ALWAYS trying to learn more to be better at what I do. 

When I see people from high school who ask what I am doing with my life I am embarassed at times because of the bad name we have associated with us. Sort of like what your signature says, I am trying to change that although I doubt it ever will.

Thats why I appreciate advice from you guys who are in different locations who have entirely different points of view and ways to look at things.

Now time to read those articles.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I remember when he died, it made pretty big news up here. I was actually at ABC that morning when everyone found out about it. Saw him once but never got a chance to talk to him.


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