# Inspector wants to inspect heated flooring system?



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

This is a new one for me. Electrical inspector told us today that he wants to inspect the heated flooring system prior to installation. It's a Warmly Yours electric mat.

I said, okay, here it is and handed him the box. He said, no I need to inspect it once you install it but prior to installing the tile over it so that I can see it. I said, you want me to roll it out on the floor?

He got pissy and said no, I want it installed but before you tile it.

I said, okay, but you won't be able to see it because installing it means it's either embeded in a layer of thinset or its embeded in a layer of self leveling compound and you're not going to have anything to see.

He now starts to get upset and says I don't know what to tell you, but I have to see it before you cover it. 

I said, I have no idea what you're asking me to do. You said you want to see it prior to tile, but installed. Installed means covering it up in thinset or self leveling compound and you won't be able to see it. He gets madder.

He repeats himself, I repeat myself. WTF is this guys talking about? He storms out. I call him this afternoon to try to get this figured out, we both go through this again and repeat ourselves twice more. He says then send me the instructions to it and let me look at them, ambigously possibly intimating that if he gets to see the instructions that might be enough?

He repeated 3 times that this is standard practice. I've never ever gone through this, ever and I've installed probably 50 of these. He also repeated that this is their duty to make sure the homeowners heated flooring system is installed correctly. WTF?

I understand the inspection of the thermostat making sure it's GFCI protected, the rough in of the wiring, the grounding etc... but inspecting the heated floor mat prior to installtion of the tile, isn't that like him wanting to inspect a ceiling fan or a vanity light prior to installation or a plumbing inspector wanting to inspect your bathtub prior to installation.

I mean, I don't know everything, but since when did electrical inspectors get invovled in this? We even install everyone we do on a dedicated circuit, I don't get this guy.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I think he wants to see the mat in place with the wiring run where it's supposed to run (t-stat location?). He expects to see it physically attached to the sub-floor or to a grid. If the manufacturers instructions don't call for physical attachment then just lay out the mat with the wiring installed.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I already asked him if he wanted me to just roll it out on the floor for him, he got upset. He wants it installed. Installation means embedding it in thinset or SLC and he ain't gonna see anything at that point. He said he wants to be able to see it. I said, installing it means you won't be able to see it. round and round we go.... if I install it, it will be under a bed of thinset or SLC, there will be nothing to see but a coating of thinset or SLC on the floor with the wires under it.

Since when did inspectors get involved in anything beyond code compliance? Is there going to be a cabinet inspector to inspect my cabinets and make sure they are installed properly with all the nail holes filled? Is the drywall inspection now going to include inspecting my mudding techinques with a light at a harsh angle? This guy is acting like it's his duty to protect the homeowner from me f'ing up the installation and the mat not working. How does that fall into the NEC?


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Tell him you're installing it Wednesday and placing thinset around it Thursday. So he has to look at it end of the day Wednesday before the pour. Would that fill the communication gap?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Has to be either a noob inspector, or one who's recently been reamed for being slack on something.

Or he's seen your posts here and just wants to take you down a notch. :laughing:


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

It sounds like he wants to see it on the floor with the wiring in place, probably terminated, so that he has an idea that you know what you are doing. It sounds dumb, but I am not surprised. He wants to see that you know how to install the wiring correctly and hook it up. 

So prior to any thinset, you lay it out, wire it up to the controls and/or power source. Turn it on for the guy, he gets a hard on, leaves, you unhook everything, lay down the thinset and do it right. 

Sounds like word came down to his boss, who is now telling him, and he is telling you. Someone, somewhere high up in the building dept has a bug up their "you know what" and they know nothing about this, except they now want it their way. 

As an electrical contractor, I have been asked in the past to run and connect the wiring, which I have done, and inspectors have seen it and everything was fine.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I am assuming you are putting the mat down and then applying the thin set correct? If so tell him to meet at a certain time so he can see the mat exposed before you apply the thin set. That should satisfy him.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Whatever you do, schedule the inspection for a Saturday. Tell the expector that's when it's going to be installed & covered up. :whistling


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## fireguy (Oct 29, 2006)

480sparky said:


> Whatever you do, schedule the inspection for a Saturday. Tell the expector that's when it's going to be installed & covered up. :whistling


Expector as in expectorate? Make him mad enough and he will expectorate


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

fireguy said:


> Expector as in expectorate? Make him mad enough and he will expectorate


Expector as in he expects things.


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

Ha, just got done installing this exact system.

Maybe he means stapled / hot glued down. If he wants it wired up before you embed it, that's contrary to the manufacturer's instructions. The installer isn't really supposed to wire it up until everything's done and the resistance has been checked. I mean, I suppose you could and then pull it apart to test resistance, but c'mon.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Is this your first rodeo Findlay? Just roll that bastard out on the floor and call for the inspection!

Junior got mad at you because you gave him attitude...served with a thick layer of sarcasm. 

As much as inspectors can be a pain in the ass, that little pecker head can really make your life more difficult than it has it be.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

*Heated Floor Inspections - Vancouver*

Floor Heat Inspections.

Mike this is common place here in Vancouver. You are required to call for an inspection before the heating pad is covered up completely. You can install it with thin-set and then call the inspection.

You can install the heating pad and cover with self levelling and then call the inspection.

You can't install and cover with tile in one step.

I asked the same question you did and made the same comments about not seeing the cable. My inspector said - "Just lay the cable and call me".

When Cam came by there was barely any trace of the floor heat. He looked at the connection in the 11/10 box and the entry into the wall assembly. I had roughed in some 1" flex and he didn't give it a second look. A OK and he was out the door.

I have noticed that this inspection is often skipped by the local builders. The inspector may want this inspection but it might not be inforceable. I would play it safe and just set the matt and call him.

Make sure your Sparky does not remove the labels on the wire tails. These will need to be inspected at this time.

Good Luck.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanks John. The whole thing is goofy to me. I'm still not convinced this is actually a real inspection here, I've been doing this for 10 years and have never ran into this before. But I have ran into inspectors with this building dept making up bat sh*t inspections and requirements on the spot before.

At the end of all this he asked me to fax him the instructions for the mat, intimating that he might not be required to inspect it once he looked at the instructions. Here we go -  either it's a requirement or it's not, this up for interpretation this is bullsh*t.

This is the same routine I've ran into with this exact building dept before. They ramble on about something at an inspection and when you ask them for clarifications they back peddle get pissy and before it's all over I"m faxing them something from a manufacturer and then they says something along the lines of "well, this time I won't have to inspect it." This is stinking like the same thing, and it's getting old. This send them the instructions thing is their way out without having to say, oh, you're right, I was making sh*t up again.

I'll fax him the instructions and call him again Monday and see what he has to say. If he drops it then fine, if he pushes it, it might be time to go to the building dept head above him and get some clarification.

I'm not opposed to following a local jurisdictions amendments to the code, but I sure as hell want to be able to understand exactly what they expect so the work can pass on the first inspection. This guys being so ambiguous about what he wants to see, we have no way of successfully proceeding.

Around here it doesn't work like you guys are saying it works for you. For one thing our jobs are tightly scheduled, there is no such thing as the job not moving ahead every single day, we don't have the time to waste on this sort of thing, also there is no such thing as telling an inspector when to show up. They show up when they want that day. Maybe 2 out of the 12 different building depts I work with allow you to even ask for a morning or afternoon inspection, all the rest you're at their mercy. Maybe you guys do construction differently, but here we don't have the ability to pay employees to stand around with thumbs up asses in hopes of some inspector showing up some time that day with no way of knowing what the hell he wants to see to pass the inspection and then if he doesn't like it, to repeat it all the next day. Everything is installed correctly and double checked and ready for inspection, everybody knows what needs to be done to pass all the inspections and they pass on the first round. I can't run a business with some rouge inspector making up sh*t, he may have a nice municipal salary and have no concept of what profit and loss is, but I don't have that luxury.

I was wondering if anybody else had ever experienced an electric heated floor inspection, so far only John has, but he's not even in the USA. If this is a new code adoption then so be it, it won't be the last time I missed knowing about a new one. If its their local adoption to the code so be it, but if it's just a hair up his ass, I'm not in. These are grown men working in construction, this ia a real business, we will play by the rules as long as everybody knows what they are. 

Maybe where you guys are inspectors are brilliant and never make mistakes, here I've ran into many cases over the years of being told miss-information by inspectors of having them try to fail something based on their misunderstanding or them wanting changes based on their miss-information. I've had inspectors miss-interpret branch circuits code, GFCI code, distances for outlets, pump access requirements on jetted tubs, glass safety issues, building science issues, framing, vapor barriers etc...


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

I've never heard of it either.

I've not worked with that system, so I'm not sure of the install process.

We use loose lay systems for the most part, so I suppose I could see nailing down the strapping, running the wire and thermostat lead, and then getting it inspected before pouring SLC. A NuHeat or similar mat could be installed and inspected before tile is laid, and perhaps those are what he's had exposure to.

I wonder if a homeowner had a system failure, and called to complain that the inspector didn't catch it. I'd be asking what code they are inspecting it based on: NEC, IRC, etc, and what specifically he's wanting to see---thermostat run, conduit for the cold leads, continuity/resistance?

Annoying as hell I'm sure, especially when you're trying to stay on schedule.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

ChrWright said:


> I've never heard of it either.
> 
> I've not worked with that system, so I'm not sure of the install process.
> 
> We use loose lay systems for the most part, so I suppose I could see nailing down the strapping, running the wire and thermostat lead, and then getting it inspected before pouring SLC. A NuHeat or similar mat could be installed and inspected before tile is laid, and perhaps those are what he's had exposure to.




I think that may be the issue. I think it's possible he's just totally confused at the installtion of this heated floor mat system, he did make reference to a nail down wire stretching system, and there is a chance he just has no idea about other systems. But that of course brings me back to the issue of why would an inspector get involved with wanting to inspect an electric heated floor prior to cover up. This creates the issues of the inspector being an expert at all systems, which he can't be and obviously this guy isn't since he is having such a hard time understanding that installation of this system means you can't see it any longer.



ChrWright said:


> I'd be asking what code they are inspecting it based on: NEC, IRC, etc, and what specifically he's wanting to see---thermostat run, conduit for the cold leads, continuity/resistance?


This is what I was trying to get out of him when he got all pissy about it. Does he want to do a resistance test on it? How's he going to know the correct number? You can see how this doesn't make a lick of sense if you have experience with these systems, how an inspector would get involved. All he could do was keep saying he wanted to "see it "after we installed it but before it got tiled. That's when I asked him what he wanted to see since it was not going to be visible? 

We will see on Monday, I have a feeling he's going to drop the whole thing after he gets his instructions. This has become this building depts typical scenario. They make some whimsical demand, you ask them intelligent questions to clarify why they want it and how you're supposed to pass it, and they change direction to asking for some document and then they act like they will let you get away with it this time.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Bottom line, I think his technical jurisdiction ends at where the cable meets the mat. The rest of it is UL-approved and has prior clearance, as long as you follow the manufacturer's instructions. It's most likely a tad beyond his purview to make sure you do that.

But is the distinction enough to make it worthwhile for you to get a vendetta started?


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Hey Mike.

I understand your frustrations and have had many debates over the years with local building inspectors. Our Electrical inspector in North Vancouver is one of the toughest in the business, a lot of guys don't like him for this simple point. Over the past 10 years I have got to know Cam quite well and know his heart is in the right spot. Cam has witnessed first hand many terrible mistakes and knows how badly these things can go.

What I'm finding is that our local inspectors can only enforce a small amount of the "Interpertation" of the local codes. If a product is rated for XYZ use you can move forward. The product needs a stamp of approval along the UL cUPC etc and you need the manufactures installation instructions. 

This is the key point - "Installed as per manufactures installation instructions" - this is what was passed and what is approved. These companies need to submit the drawings and the testers at large follow them and then approve or fail a new product.

Here in Vancouver these are huge buzz words. Can I do this Cam? "As long as you follow the approved manufactures installation instructions."

I'm trying to get the ELIO LED Grab Bars approved for install here in Vancouver and just waiting on the new install paperwork to be finalized.

I think as well the electrical codes have changed somewhat and know thermostats are only aloud to be sold by a wholesaler. I believe there are cases of homeowners hooking up 240V systems to 120 setups. This is why it's so important to not remove the little wire labels at install time.

JW


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## Lizzie (Mar 6, 2011)

Mike Finley said:


> At the end of all this he asked me to fax him the instructions for the mat, intimating that he might not be required to inspect it once he looked at the instructions. Here we go -  either it's a requirement or it's not, this up for interpretation this is bullsh*t.


I'll bet he told you to fax him the instructions to see if you were bullshedding him that installation meant covering it up... Sometimes it's just better to kiss butt and make him feel like a tough guy


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

Mike - I had this exact experience with the state inspector for GWV back in March. Ended with us putting the mat down, make the connections and call it in. Passed the next morning - disconnect it - roll it up and then I could call in for my rough frame inspection.

More important though, is the fact that they do seem to just make stuff up. I had a permit application stall for 8 days because a plans reviewer said I couldn't have a chandelier in a powder room! "It's a powder room you moron - there's no tub or shower!" "Show me where in the NEC is says no chandeliers in a powder room!"

And with our inspection routines here - the in floor heat experience above cost us 3 days on the schedule (gotta pass rough electric and plumb before you can have a frame inspection - gotta pass frame before you can have a drywall inspection...).

I swear these people could screw-up a shot-put!


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