# how long to paint a front door.



## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

***


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

***


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

Sure thing, I'll watch it.

prowallguy AT msn.com


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

Scribbles...show your guy that video. I would be willing to bet that your guy is dipping a brush in a can and painting the entire door with a brush only. he should be using a small roller to apply paint and a brush to smooth it. Obviously the roller can cover a lot more area that a brush in a given amount of time. Teach him, or have a pro painter show him how to cut in properly. It will save a ton of time not to mention not having to buy masking tape by the truck load....that sheeit is expensive.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Start paying him piece work.


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## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

ProWallGuy said:


> That painfully slow guy is me.
> 
> Hey, great video, although you don't look like the headbanging type like the music was playing in the background. :laughing:


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## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

_


Steve Richards said:



I've made it 52 years without having myself on YouTube,

Click to expand...

_


Steve Richards said:


> I didn't know you tube was that old!


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

paulie said:


> _
> 
> 
> Steve Richards said:
> ...


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

scribbles said:


> and i would make, $3-$5 and hour on him. Plus my markup on materials, .


wtf?


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> wtf?


We are a very new, very small company; in all honesty I am really thankful for wages, and covering my overhead. Nor cal has over a million ex construction workers out or work. We are slowly building a reputation with designers and builders for honesty and quality. When the schedule is full, and I have 2-3 full time employees I can worry about making more. 

We have slowly purchased better equipment; we have no debt, and are working. We have moved from my garage into a 1,200sf building. Six companies in our complex have gone bankrupt and closed in the last 9 months.
How do you recommend I do better?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Scribbles said:


> How do you recommend I do better?


Maybe go out of business with the rest of them?

Seriously, I don't know what to tell you, but you making $3-$5 an hour on your help scares the sh*t out of me.

You could blow that guys contribution to your company during a day just by not paying attention which grade of gas you put into your truck at the gas station. 

That's crazy to me and disturbing. I'm looking at 200-300% from each guy. Your number would amount to something like 15-20%.

What's the point of even going to work every day?


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Maybe go out of business with the rest of them?
> 
> Seriously, I don't know what to tell you, but you making $3-$5 an hour on your help scares the sh*t out of me.
> 
> ...


Background.

I am 30 years old, I was a manager for a local handrail company, that company has gone bankrupt, I was hired by another handrail company that one has gone bankrupt as well. I don’t like unemployment, and did not want to go on it, so I cashed out my savings and started a company. I did not know what else to do. I would rather work for pennies than be on unemployment like the masses. I am trying to hire people and, get them off unemployment as well.


Have I lost my ass on jobs because of my inexperience, absolutely, Do I know how to run a company, not really, most of my time here is spent reading old post on business management, advertising, and generally trying to learn how to run a construction company. I am taking classes in accounting, and business management, while working 60-70 hours a week.


I would rather be part of the solution then sitting at home with my hand out. If you have any recommendations on different ways to structure my company for better profitability I would love them, but posting a blanket statement stating I would be better off declaring bankruptcy and laying off the two ppl I have working is not appreciated.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

You tell him, Scribbles!

Jeeez...guy comes on asking how long it should take to paint a door, and 30 posts later gets told he should just go out of business?

Go back to the toilet forum, Finley.


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

I agree with Leo.. did it come out right? Then quit your bitching. Seriously why does it ALWAYS come down to time.. why is there not time allotted for good quality work? I would have taken a bit longer because that is the first thing you see when you come home. Every time that door opens then they are reminded of either a.) your quality, or b.) your lack of.. every time.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

nEighter said:


> I agree with Leo.. *did it come out right? Then quit your bitching. Seriously why does it ALWAYS come down to time.. why is there not time allotted for good quality work?* I would have taken a bit longer because that is the first thing you see when you come home. Every time that door opens then they are reminded of either a.) your quality, or b.) your lack of.. every time.


Come on man, seriously? If the quality was good then live with 7 hours for half a door? 

That's absurd.

I agree you shouldn't browbeat folks to unreasonable production and still demand top quality, that's just being an a$$.

But that's *not* what he is talking about. To take that kind of time you either gotta be stoned, stupid, or sleeping.

Scribbles, what I would do is rather than explaining that it took to long or how to do it; I would start with letting him show you how he paints a side of a door, say nothing just watch no matter how long he takes.

One of two things are going to happen, either you are going to spend several hours learning all of the things he is doing unnecessarily *or* you are going to watch him for a far shorter period of time, at which point he has some 'splaining to do.

I offer this because it seems like you would like to resolve this and keep using him.

I also like Shane's idea of letting him do some flat work, helps a person understand your shoes a bit better and helps clear out the cobwebs of hourlyitis.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

7 hours is way too long. i like what leo said, it's all about the prep and if it was a new door or older door that was being repainted, then it would take longer. no way anyone can paint a door from start to finish in 5 minutes, you gotta factor the time it takes to setup, drive there, setup drop cloth or plastic. take knob/deadbolt off etc. 
how old is your employee scribbles?
maybe he was laying around txting for a while and not really working. kids these days don't know how to work hard and get ahead. most don't anyways.

finley, in today's world we live in, 300% on an employees wages will make sure most guys don't get any work. 200% i can see, but even that you are covering your costs associated with hiring them and some on top of that. maybe you are only paying your guys 12 an hour and charging 50 an hour for each guy?


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Just for the hell of it...and at the risk of POing yet another moderator..



Leo G said:


> You guys aren't prepping the door? A few minutes to remove the hardware. sure If it is a new door that is pre primed it would take 10-12 minutes to scuff the primer,Why are you sanding the primer?
> Primer is flat for a reason. So that the first coat of paint has something to "hang onto" ever hear of a glossy wood primer?
> getting in the nooks and crannies. If you're sanding inside the panels, there's an excellent chance you're going cut through the primer on any outside corners.
> Meaning you have to go get a little brush and touch that primer back up.
> ...


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

I am confused about blowing the dust off. How do you know where the dust is going to settle? I am with the others on the wiping down part. I will usually use a damp rag to try and get the dust off finstead of having it floating around the doo, or whatever, I am trying to get dust free. I will use a dust brush for corners when needed then wipe the best I can.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Basically because I know how to paint the correct way. While you seem strictly on getting out of there as fast as you can.




Steve Richards said:


> Just for the hell of it...and at the risk of POing yet another moderator..





Leo G said:


> You guys aren't prepping the door? A few minutes to remove the hardware. sure If it is a new door that is pre primed it would take 10-12 minutes to scuff the primer,Why are you sanding the primer?
> Primer is flat for a reason. So that the first coat of paint has something to "hang onto" ever hear of a glossy wood primer?
> You scuff the primer to give it a rough area for the paint to bite onto. The primer is not smooth enough from the factory to give a satisfactory finish.getting in the nooks and crannies. If you're sanding inside the panels, there's an excellent chance you're going cut through the primer on any outside corners.
> Meaning you have to go get a little brush and touch that primer back up.
> ...


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Scribbles said:


> Background.
> 
> I am 30 years old, I was a manager for a local handrail company, that company has gone bankrupt, I was hired by another handrail company that one has gone bankrupt as well. I don’t like unemployment, and did not want to go on it, so I cashed out my savings and started a company. I did not know what else to do. I would rather work for pennies than be on unemployment like the masses. I am trying to hire people and, get them off unemployment as well.
> 
> ...


You may not like it, but you're part of the problem not the solution. 

Companies buying jobs, working for pennies, means they are taking jobs off the market at below market rates and making it harder for legitimate companies to function.

Not everybody should be in business. If you're working for pennies you're probably one of them.

This might sound harsh, but sorry, that's the reality. Every time another company who employs 10 instead of your 2, who has been around for 10 years instead of your 1, goes to bid a job and you get it for 30% less just to keep your guys working and making your pennies hurts that legiimate company and it's 10 employees.

That's reality. 

Do you have to go out of biz? No. But I don't see the point of working for pennies and I don't have sympathy for anybody dragging the rest of the market down the spiral of lower and lower job costs just so you can work for pennies.

People working for pennies aren't part of any solution. They are the problem. Craigslist is full of them.

Let's just take the kid gloves off?

You're posting on here about a guy you have who takes 7 hours to paint a door and you don't know what to do?

You're posting on here that you work for pennies?

Get serious.  Attack my ass for being realistic to you, maybe I'm the first guy who has ever actually told you what you need to hear.

You're wasting your time in your current methods. Obvously. 

You aren't going to restructure in a recession and suddenly miraculously turn everything around when you're having as much trouble as you are employing a guy who has gone steadily down hill since hiring.

When a guy starts off strong and goes down hill over time and his production keeps dropping, it isn't him, it's you. You should look at yourself and figure out why a good worker has turned to sh*t. What's the environment? With a boss who has a mentality of working for nothing is good enough is there really a mystery where the problems lay?

Well, enough, you won't understand any of it nor be able to gain anything from what I'm telling you anyway.

Instead show the kid the video. He will give you some BS about how he will do better. One day don't look for the guy, cause I'm sure he's looking for something else as we read this and has been for awhile. I'm betting the kid knows the writing on the wall better then his employer does. He's un-motivated working for a company on the way out, who can't keep enough work, is sketchy with hours... etc... etc... etc...


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

hmmmmm


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> You may not like it, but you're part of the problem not the solution.
> 
> Companies buying jobs, working for pennies, means they are taking jobs off the market at below market rates and making it harder for legitimate companies to function.
> 
> ...


As harsh and curt as Mike might be in explaining his opinion on this subject he is basically right.I understand the mindset of doing what ever it takes to keep some money coming in and keeping one's employees busy.But if prices keep getting dragged down then everyone is going to suffer in the long run.

And it is a cold hard fact that if you don't charge enough,don't cover OH and make a profit,then you _will _go out of business.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> You may not like it, but you're part of the problem not the solution.
> 
> Companies buying jobs, working for pennies, means they are taking jobs off the market at below market rates and making it harder for legitimate companies to function.
> 
> ...


Mike I understand what you are saying but a guy with 10 employees should be charging the same rate for the GUys on the job as the guy with 2-3 employees. although, some guys have higher overhead than others, they should still be charging a fair price to do the jobs, no matter what they are.
it's not my fault if some guy with 10 guys working for him is out of work so therefore he goes in and gouges a customer to make up for all the money he's losing because his guys are sitting around in the shop doing very little to make him money. 

that being said, i think you are being a bit harsh on this guy, we don't know what the finished product looked like. maybe this employee wasn't painting all the time, employees no matter how good they are, are just that, employees. they will slack off, most won't care how long it take to do a job, and most won't care if something breaks or something gets damaged. they just expect the boss to deal with it.
this guy posted asking for some advice and got nothing but grief from a bunch of people. i'm not saying i would be happy if it took someone working for me 7 hours to paint a door but I know it takes longer than 5 minutes as some other guys have stated in this thread.
maybe this was the first door the guy ever painted, and he took his time and Steve has to know he won't make much on the door job now but might the next time if he charges a bit more or gets the kid working faster. 
everyone has to start somewhere, are you the fastest person in colorado at remodeling a bathroom? i'm sure you were slower when you started than you are right now, that's if you still do any of the work yourself or have your guys do it all.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

I agree someone has to start somewhere. He may have 7 mouths to feed at home, his, wife, and 5 kids. He could stay home and hope the eagle sh**s once a week every week. If he has enough mouths to feed, he could also collect food stamps. He might even get out and do side jobs under the table *very cheap* with no overhead relatively speaking.
I have been a manager before years ago. I knew nothing of the costs to run that business. My main resposibility was getting people to work and make sure the numbers jived with what was sold.
I'm sure he has a lot to learn. He chose what some may call the school of hard knocks, not much different than most on here I assume.
I see a dope dealer in my neighborhood almost daily making deliveries. Thats an option I guess. 
All in all, I like have to applaude someone who will take their savings and take a shot at standing in their own boots.


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

I guess I did not read 7 hrs, but I would have taken a couple to get 2 nice coats on and tape off and make sure everything was perfect. 7 may be out of the norm, but then again.. I wasn't there so I can't say.


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

You paying him $10.00/hr? then it cost you $70.00 for labor and then the materials? I would have charged alot more to do it for you.. so you got a deal :thumbsup:


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

The 7 hour door is something out of the ordinary. I'm just saying he caught a lot of grief for not charging along with the elite. Two companies relative to what he is doing have gone out of business. Maybe a temp market correction in his area is taking place.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

One thing I have learned,
is that when I get up in a man's face
and poke my finger in his chest,
he is less than likely to pick up
on the nuances of my point of view.


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

Dang Neo always up in the mind.. i need to put that into my supercomputer to decipher it.. BRB


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

***


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

nEighter said:


> Dang Neo always up in the mind.. i need to put that into my supercomputer to decipher it.. BRB


 
I ain't sayin 'nuttin.

I was waiting for someone else to get clarification. :blink: :laughing:


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## G&J (May 4, 2008)

I just showed this thread to my wife, and she would like to know why it took six months to paint the two new doors on our house. No waw I'm telling her that's only the first coat :whistling


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

Steve Richards said:


> I'm guessing "some other guys" is me.
> 
> Actually... yes, I can_ paint_ a 6 panel door in 5 minutes (both sides).
> 
> [/brag]


with setup, prep, cleanup and it looking half way decent. no way. 
a brand new door, both sides? one coat doesnt' count either. one coat is for hacks. two coats or more is a quality job. 

listen to leo G, he knows what he's talking about.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

G&J said:


> I just showed this thread to my wife, and she would like to know why it took six months to paint the two new doors on our house. No waw I'm telling her that's only the first coat :whistling


lol. i wont' show my wife this thread. lol some of our trim we installed and doors when we first moved into our house, still doesn't have a final coat on it. having kids changes everything and i never can get everyone out of the house to get it all painted. but she did just get a brand new bathroom. that just needs trim installed and crown. 
that only took a few months on/off to finish. lol. just like the shoe makers kids having no shoes.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm sure Leo G. could give me some painting lessons.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

ok, the thing is, painting is not just the time you are holding the brush, it's all it takes to start and finish a job. from when you first step out of the truck and get going. that's like saying, it took me 1 minute to nail trim a door. but it took 10 minutes to cut and measure the trim.

i don't see the need to brag about how fast you can do it, it's the END result that matters. i'm no painter but a solid wood 6 panel door takes more than 5 minutes to do it correctly. with nice neat strokes. i am very picky with who paints my jobs. that wouldn't fly with me.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I do other things fast too...just ask my wife:w00t:


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I think it may be time for me to leave for greener pastures.

Maybe I can hang out in the General discussion forum.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

> only took a few months on/off


I know aguy that had his wife literally walking a plank across the floor joists in during a bthrm gut and remodel. :whistling I heard she was one unhappy camper! 

I also heard he almost refused to do any thing else to the house! :shifty:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

boman47k said:


> I know aguy that had his wife literally walking a plank across the floor joists in during a bthrm gut and remodel. :whistling I heard she was one unhappy camper!
> 
> I also heard he almost refused to do any thing else to the house! :shifty:


...Or so you've been told....:laughing:


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

neolitic said:


> ...Or so you've been told....:laughing:


 
Yep, thats my tale, and I'll sit on it! :jester:

Btw, it'll be a while before those tile get replaced. Whats a few tiles out of line.............and a few wide grout lines? LOL!


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> *When a guy starts off strong and goes down hill over time and his production keeps dropping, *it isn't him, it's you. *You should look at yourself and figure out why a good worker has turned to sh*t.*


I think much of Mike's post is pretty on target, you should really listen.

One of the things I have picked up and am holding tight to is correct pricing. It is just a fact that without it I will go under, after a long hard slog. In addition it does just damage the industry and make it harder for this to be something that folks can base a life on.

After the year I had in 09 it is tough to do, to not get every job that comes my way hurts. It's tempting to cut prices to at least get *something*, but I become more and more sure that that mentality is the express route to failure.

I don't know what the problem with your worker is, only he does, and it's up to you to find out or cut him loose. The one thing I do know, and agree 100% with Mike on is that his problem has nothing to do with painting.

It has something to do with his job.


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> You may not like it, but you're part of the problem not the solution.
> 
> Companies buying jobs, working for pennies, means they are taking jobs off the market at below market rates and making it harder for legitimate companies to function.
> 
> ...


 

I would like to address a couple things you mentioned. 

1# I don’t believe I ever attacked you, actually I asked for guidance and advice because you have decades’ longer experience than I do.

2#, I am a legitimate company, I am licensed, I am bonded, I have a place of business, I have Insurance, I have workers comp and all necessary insurances and payroll obligations required by the state of California. I am not a craigslist hack, I am not a handyman, and I do very high end custom millwork in many of Sacramento’s best neighborhoods.

3# both the companies I worked for have been in business for over 50years, the owners of both company’s told me to go open my own shop, and try to find work. Both companies failed before I started mine. I did not control the market.

4#this discussion was about one employee, painting one door. I have a big heart and I don’t want to fire the person. There are also many things going on is his life that impact the situation, those things as well as his work performance will be weighed in my decision on what to do with him. I am sorry that I don’t value people only on what percentage they bring in at the end of the day, as a hole we are profitable, I would not have stayed in business over 2 years without being profitable. I have never told you what my rates are. Nor will I. Are they less than yours probably, that is my choice not yours. I charge what I believe is fair, and covers my cost. I very much doubt you have made 200%-300% on every employee you have ever had. If you have than apparently money is the only thing you have value in. I value people and relationships more, both my relationships with employees and my customers.

I still respect you opinion, and will continue to. I do believe people that call themselves contractors while ignoring the law are scum and bringing down the market, but I am not one of them. 

Raymond Mathison
Sacramento Millworks
Owner


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## Kevin M. (Feb 28, 2010)

Pricing is still driven by good old fashioned supply and demand. To claim you have arrived at a certain place which permits you to attain set pricing irregardless of the other economic conditions, is whimsical. At least that has been my experience. In a down economy other business and industry scramble to exist and consistently operate at lower profit margins. Why is construction any different?


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## BuildersII (Dec 20, 2009)

Kevin M. said:


> Pricing is still driven by good old fashioned supply and demand. To claim you have arrived at a certain place which permits you to attain set pricing irregardless of the other economic conditions, is whimsical. At least that has been my experience. In a down economy other business and industry scramble to exist and consistently operate at lower profit margins. Why is construction any different?


So true. You can't will yourself around economics 101.


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

moorewarner said:


> I think much of Mike's post is pretty on target, you should really listen.
> 
> One of the things I have picked up and am holding tight to is correct pricing. It is just a fact that without it I will go under, after a long hard slog. In addition it does just damage the industry and make it harder for this to be something that folks can base a life on.
> 
> After the year I had in 09 it is tough to do, to not get every job that comes my way hurts. It's tempting to cut prices to at least get *something*, but I become more and more sure that that mentality is the express route to failure.


But God forbid anybody asks how to go about figuring out their pricing on this forum. It's Taboo. 

The vast majority of contractors came up in the trades working for somebody. Then they got pretty good at their craft and figured.."why should my boss make all the cheese?" and started doing jobs on their own. No business schooling, just jump in and figure it out as they go. That's what I did. I was starting to get the hang of it when the market took a s**t. Now I am back working for the man for the time being. I had bills to pay and the business wasn't getting it done.

When someone comes on here and lets it slip that they are under pricing their work, they get s**t on. Then when they ask how to price their work correctly, they get s**t on harder.

I don't get it.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

send_it_all said:


> But God forbid anybody asks how to go about figuring out their pricing on this forum. It's Taboo.
> 
> The vast majority of contractors came up in the trades working for somebody. Then they got pretty good at their craft and figured.."why should my boss make all the cheese?" and started doing jobs on their own. No business schooling, just jump in and figure it out as they go. That's what I did. I was starting to get the hang of it when the market took a s**t. Now I am back working for the man for the time being. I had bills to pay and the business wasn't getting it done.
> 
> ...


It's expected that if you run a business, you know how to run a business. 

If you don't, you are part of the problem - i.e. the people who make it hard for a legitimate contractor to conduct business because they're forced to compete against someone who buys themself a job. 

Pricing questions are frowned upon because if you run a business, you should know that to be profitable you need to charge a rate that earns your business profit. When ignorance to that obvious fact is displayed, people get infuriated because, well, it becomes obvious that the person asking the question shouldn't be in business because they don't know what their production rates are, what their costs are, or how to be profitable - thus they are the lowballers we are competing against.

And for the record, i've never seen anyone who asks "HOW" to price work be crapped on, just those who ask "WHAT to charge".


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Wow, a lot of thin skinned folks are really taking the remarks and others to heart and personally. I haven't seen any direct personal attacks here, just opinions. If you have a problem with a particular post, report it and it'll be dealt with. You may not see the dealing, but none the less, it shall be done.

Now, as for the thin skinned among us, let us consider, construction is not a commodity nor is painting. You can talk about _market price_ and _prevailing costs_ all you want but when it comes to a contract, it's simply this -- Two parties agree to deliver something in exchange for something. There is no such thing as _market price _because there is no market! 

Where do you go to buy your apples? The super market I would guess. Where do you go to buy your painters? How about your framers? 

Do a search on a member named Sonny Lykos. Read up on his posts and his thoughts on our business. And if you think its not a business, but a job, then Mike is right. You own a job, not a business and you might be better off working for someone else. 

You are selling your expertise to produce a one-off product, in place. Not a commodity. Not a "marketable item". Each door you paint will be a bit different. Differing makers, stickers, hinge setup, grain, primer, size, _ad nauseam_. 

The point is this - Control your work, and your workers or you'll just be a part of the problem and not the solution. Mentor your employees and give them a reason to have pride in their success and you will be paid brilliantly with happy, productive workers. Beat them up on wage and unit prices and you will have disgruntled workers that are on the look out for a better deal down the street.

My business is to compete in my market however I choose to within the bounds of the law and my wits. _Not _by _generally accepted practices_, _prevailing wage_, _market price_, or any other 50 cent phrase you want to flop out and call _economics_. Economists, CPAs and Lawyers have their place, but not in the day to day running of a service oriented business. They are focused on the wrong things. Only a true business person with a degree from the University of Life Ain't Fair can run this type of business. They understand that the real world can be a sucky place that eats bright-eyed wannabes for breakfast.

They also understand that CPAs and Lawyers are vital to our business because this industry is fraught with pitfalls and we have a responsibility to cover our butts! 

At the end of the day understand that you have an investment in your business and as a majority shareholder in that business you have a responsibility to run it as well as you are able. If someone tells you that you're not doing a good enough job, listen to them. They are not talking just to hear themselves talk. 

Mike has made this same point over and over in post after post. Its not a matter of ego here. Its a simple matter of doing your best. If you can honestly and with humility look at your business and say to yourself at the end of the day that this is as good as it gets, then its time to get some more education. 

And don't think the folks at the local business school or community college or even Harvard have a good idea of how to run your business. The real deal are the folks on this forum. They have been there and done that. Some more than once.

If you want to learn, then understand what is being said and why, and don't get mad at anyone but yourself if you don't like what you hear. 

Like Momma used to say, "If the truth hurts, then you're living a lie". 

Dip your Purdy into that a few times and see if it will lay out or not.


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

I am offended by your post Double A.. AND I am reporting you STAT!!


:laughing:

BTW.. Purdy's are WAY overrated :shifty:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Double-A said:


> Dip your Purdy into that a few times and see if it will lay out or not.


:laughing:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Rcon said:


> And for the record, i've never seen anyone who asks "HOW" to price work be crapped on, just those who ask "WHAT to charge".


Exactly. We will tell you what you should already know if you are trying to price something out. labor time + materials + OH and taxes + profit = price.

Since we here on the forum are from all over the country and in different countries at times, how are we to know what your costs in your area are.

When you ask us to price a job out for you, well, you will get hit hard by the guys who find you before the MODs shut the thread down. Plain and simple.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

> There is no such thing as _market price _because there is no market!


So what is a marketable trade or talent? Is it not a trade or talent, even a service, that is presented to the buying puplic to be sold. Is the buying puplic not the market? Maybe there is no brick and morter place to pick customers, but is it not still considered a market? Is a brick and morter not a store or market we try to get customers to visit and maybe look through brochures, look at samples, and listen to a sales presentation.

What is meant by, 'in the market for a carpenter, painter, ect..'? Where to you find this whatever? Yellow pages, trade mag's, word of mouth, bill boards, yard signs, van's with company logos, maybe a brick and morter one stop, etc.. What is all this money being spent on? What is the purpose of this expense? What column does this expense go under? Are they marketing expenses? Some would say advertising. To my simple mind, sometimes, there is a thin line between the two. Imo, to a certain extent, everything you do to get your name out to the market and promote your business is marketing. 

Market prices? Prices vary greatly in the trades according to skill level and the market you are catering to. There is that word again, and catering is a fair word for what most tradesmen do. Imo, there is a market price. It varies according to the market (buyers) looking and what the market (trades) is offering. The market is segmented. There are different market prices for different segments of the market.


P.S. Any subject can be argued, and I am not good at arguing, just some random thoughts on the subject.

P.S.S Before anyone complains about indentation, I don't know why it is not showing. I've tried twice oi put them in, no go.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Boman,

Well put but I'm deducting 15 points for no indentions. :w00t:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Kevin M. said:


> Pricing is still driven by good old fashioned supply and demand.


Pricing is *effected* by supply and demand of a *specific* level of product and service.

Not

_Pricing is driven by supply and demand._

What the hell am I talking about?







:laughing:

Pricing is effected by supply and demand, not driven. And pricing is also derivative of the specific level of product and service.

Customers demanding a high level of product and service are not able to drive price up and down based on the supply of those providers they can find. Customers demanding low prices with little regard to level of product and service can effect prices because there are a lot of supply of providers in that arena who are willing to supply low prices because they are - trying to survive, willing to work for pennies, new, inexperienced... etc...

Make sense at all?



Kevin M. said:


> To claim you have arrived at a certain place which permits you to attain set pricing irregardless of the other economic conditions, is whimsical.


Not really. It's called reputation and avoiding a commodity mindset.

The biggest factors dissuading you from being able to do it is -

#1 Confusion in the market place (this can be your own fault by not having a brand of any sort and being able to distinguish your company from another) - or it could be a simple as the salesperson or owner buying into the commodity mindset. I paint, anybody can paint, therefore there is nothing special about putting paint on a wall whether I do it or somebody else does it.

#2 Too many people in business who shouldn't be -- (http://www.contractortalk.com/f8/how-long-paint-front-door-77903/#post931213) This is not a supply issue, it's a lack of quality competitors in your market. It doesn't matter if there are 2 or 200 competitors. If all of them are knowledgeable and are in it to make a profit and create a working wage then it makes no difference how many there are. But throw in a majority of them who are clueless, and they destroy the market place.

This isn't that difficult guys. The biggest problems you have are not the best businesses operating against you in your area. The biggest problems you have are the worst businesses operating against themselves in your area.

Smart operators don't destroy the market place. They compete against you on quality, service, reputation... size.. ad budget... logistics... things that a good business operator can work at and compete while creating a profitable business with something to show for it.

Poor operators compete on price, destoying the base market that allows you to create a sustainable business that you might be able to retire from or pass on or sell.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Double-A said:


> Boman,
> 
> Well put but I'm deducting 15 points for no indentions. :w00t:


Anytime I can get 85 points for content, I am like :clap:. I know some will not rate the content much more than you deducted. :laughing:


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## Cyn (Nov 19, 2021)

Scribbles said:


> I think I could paint both sides of a front door in 7 hours with an artist brush. That is what made me so frustrated, he only painted one side.
> 
> He is a great kid, very reliable, clean, and polite. Clients love him. But over the last 2 months he is getting slower and slower. And it is about at the point I can't deal with it any more. He has been with me for 7 months, and this is not his first door. But it just seems to get worse and worse. Everything he is doing takes longer and longer. Normally some one new is slow, and in 3-6 months they start to pick up the pace. I used to be able to deal with it because he is very detail oriented, and I have never had a single problem with is quality, he was never a good money maker, but reliable and very clean work, and I would make, $3-$5 and hour on him. Plus my markup on materials, but at this point he is costing me about 50$ a day more in wages than I can bill him.
> 
> I don’t know what to do with him. I am working him less and less, and that is just making everything worse. I sat down and explained the problem is detail with him this morning, and explained that with the economy the way it is I cannot afford to lose money on him day after day. And that I would be better not taking the jobs he is doing for me, because I lose money on everything he does, and if something does not change by the end of the week I will only be able to use him on very few projects.


 Why in the world would you hire someone, spend 7 months being unhappy with his work, even throw him out there unsupervised ("they start to pick up the pace") and STILL never one time actually BE WITH HIM to observe and coach and perhaps answer questions but just allegedly finally after 7 months - lecture him - which I actually don't believe that part of the story since you failed to present HIS side.

I also don't believe that a human being spent 7 hours painting one side of a door. IF the story is true it's obvious he's not spending 7 hours painting and all you had to do was go on a job with him and show him how he painted THAT door in one hour so what's the excuse for seven?

The bottom line here is MOST people should not be business owners especially managing people.


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

The bottom line is he may not be in business anymore. The post is nine years old.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Cyn said:


> The bottom line here is MOST people should not be business owners especially managing people.


I agree especially those that don't realize it's 2021 and what is your trade?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

How long to paint a door. Well usually a little less than 7' long.


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