# Customers, Perceptions and Nausea.



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> The red ****...oops flags were all there,


 

i don't know...i just don't get the joke:no:


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I don't really have anything to offer..But I wanted Heritage to know that I read the OP in its entirety.

Pretty nice writtin', kid!


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> i don't know...i just don't get the joke:no:


Did you not read the entire OP? :blink:

Steve, I agree. When I first saw it, I said, not a long post. But I always try to read them to see how far I get. His was actually well written!


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Did you not read the entire OP? :blink:
> 
> Steve, I agree. When I first saw it, I said, not a long post. But I always try to read them to see how far I get. His was actually well written!


I did, and I too don't get the joke.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

They were two gay guys...slip of the tongue...man this is a tough crowd today.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

AmeliaP said:


> After every initial meeting we send out an email that same day basically saying "It was nice meeting you....I look forward to working on your project...." and then reiterating anything we need to move forward. It puts the ball in their court and often it keeps it rolling.


I like this because a little note in writing might help them remember the ball is in their court. YOU are waiting for the drawings from THEM.

When you are there meeting the clients and giving them tons of info they are likely processing a lot of stuff at the same time and may have trouble remembering what it is you and they have said

Kind of like me when I'm reading the forums and my wife is talking to me. I end up saying I'll do something I don't even remember saying :laughing:


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## Bill Z (Dec 10, 2006)

*Up, Down, Even*

Heritage,

Nice job of explaining the whole situation. Bad things do happen when you break your own rules. As you focus on one specific comment you made about how you feel, you used the words "establishing yourself" and "even keel". Every time you meet with someone there's a ranking that takes place, with a very short opportunity to reshuffle the deck.



Heritage said:


> ...it's about the residual effects of not properly *establishing yourself in front of a client* and setting a proper tone that places you and the potential client at *even keel* with one another.
> 
> It's about giving in and letting them take the reigns to determine what you will do, when you will do it, how you will do it, how much you shouldn't charge for it, and letting them decide whether or not they'll even take the time to see what you've come up with and other variations to the same tone.


Your first line says a mouthful about interaction with prospects. Someone taught me to consider "positioning" with every encounter. When you deal with customers you are either *UP*, *Down*, or *Even*.

"*UP*" is what all of us strive for. The prospect already knows you are the right guy, they respect your opinion, and will follow your direction. A referral is _usually_ a great "Up".

"*Down*" is the problem you had with this particular customer. Their comment about "sales pitch" and having other contractors involved says your positioning is down, you are lower than them. They don't trust what you say and you need to prove your worth to get their respect. Unless you can move a "Down" to an "Even" there's no way to succeed. I didn't say you can't sell them, but you'll wish you never met them by the time the job is over.

"*Even*" is obvious, there's mutual respect and trust, they'll be open and honest, and you can sell from this position. Just like you said, you're on an "even keel".

In your saga, you may have assumed since this person was referred, you had an Up position. Can't blame you there, most referrals are Up. 

Like me, you tend to break more rules when you feel you are Up because you think you're in control and they're going to hire you. It's natural for you trust them, and want to get the show on the road as soon as possible. We speed ahead and give them drawings, itemizations, and a scope of work....and sometimes it bites you in the azz.

This guy, for some reason was a Down and blindsided you after he let you give him all the info he needed. Downs are a pia, they have little or no respect for anybody, and you feel like you need a shower after working with them.

_Maybe_, he could have been moved to an Even but probably not. _Maybe_ being late for the appointment knocked you down a notch, but if he was a normal prospect the apology, warning call, and your professionalism should have brought him back. 

I think you can feel really good right now about not getting the job because this guy was a no-win customer no matter what you did. He's worth learning from, but not worthy of your talent.
Bill


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i think it was all a matter of perception,the op went in thinking it was a slam dunk with the high recommendations he recieved,the other contractor obviously worked harder:sad:


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

That's a lot of great feedback and insight.

I recognize one of my failures now and that's that I should be communicating with potential clients on a more frequent basis. For example, with this client I rationalized that it would take X amount of time for the agent to get the plans from the HO, then meet with the new HO's and hand them off, then they had to scan it, etc etc. I thought I was being patient and understanding, when the opposite was true. They were waiting on me to say "did you get those plans yet?".

I would have lost nothing by emailing them right after the first meeting, like Amelia said with a note..."Nice meeting you, I'll be waiting on those plans" and then reitirating some key notes. Placing the ball back in their court and showing that I am responsive.

From there, once I got the drawings I did send them an email saying "Thanks for the drawings, now I will proceed blah blah blah". BUT, I should have given them a timeline like Mike said, and maybe even followed up a few days before with another email "I'm half-way done, should be ready by Friday, how do you feel about meeting with me at our shop?"

I also like the idea of interjecting when the arrangement to get the plans was being cooked up, that's pretty clever DPC.

This little experience has revealed to me that even though I'm HIGHLY communicative with actual clients (once I've been hired and we're doing the actual work) with phone calls and emails, with potential clients...not so much. It's not that I'm non-responsive, but I'm definitely LESS responsive until I get a signed commitment. And maybe I shouldn't be.

Now this guy opened his mouth and said something...but how many of the dozens of other jobs I lost this year could be attributed to the same thing?!

That's the first part, the second part is what BILL Z said...and that is BANG ON the money. Now that could apply to anyone, in any industry. But especially true for GC's/Renovators is the fact that in our line of work we are selling a luxury. Nobody NEEDS our services.

It's a lot easier to get on even keel with a plumber or electrician.

There is a definite NEED for their service. You can't do it, you need them and therein the exchange of money for their service is a simple exchange and on even keel.

You're never going to tell a plumber "Yeah, the reason I didn't hire you is because you didn't chase me enough". Hell, the plumber won't even show up at your door unless you're paying him the service call fee.

With Renovators/GC's...it's different. The principles of Up, Down, Even are far more critical. I agree, this client was a Down from the get go. The referral meant nothing, I was still just making a "sales pitch". They never even asked any of the important questions aside from "how long do you think all this will take?". I don't think he knew ANYTHING about me or the company. Which to me says...he can't distinguish one contractor from the next. We're all the same, and we are all below him.

Dealing with a "Down" potential client, not being super responsive, doing work for free...he didn't even want to see me after that. Like he even said..."Unless what you've come up with is SIGNIFICANTLY less than the other contractor (price wise)...then maybe we can talk". It wasn't :no:. Telling them they need another 150k wouldn't have sat well with them.:laughing:

I'm thinking the new approach with Down clients is to wow them with being super responsive, and then falling back on the hard principles and not budging.

I swear to God...we should all get honorary Phd's in psychology. And we thought we were going to be bangin' nails in this line of work :laughing:


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## Bill Z (Dec 10, 2006)

Heritage said:


> I'm thinking the new approach with Down clients is to wow them with being super responsive, and then falling back on the hard principles and not budging.
> 
> I swear to God...we should all get honorary Phd's in psychology. And we thought we were going to be bangin' nails in this line of work :laughing:


Heritage,

You had some good observations about the Up, Down and Even being particularly relevant with non-essential products. Guess I've never sold necessities but that's a good thought.

As you think a little deeper about being super responsive with a Down client you can easily imagine that it just gives them an opportunity to keep going in the wrong direction.

Instead, you might want to go along with their errant ways for a short time. Listen and agree with their thinking for 5-10 minutes, then stop and ask some penetrating questions about a phase of the project for which they think they have the answers but really have no clue. Ask questions, let them start searching for answers until they look to you and ask your opinion. 

Repeat this until you are in the "lead'. They should start looking to you for advice on the whole project. You are setting yourself up as an expert who has more to offer. Keep up the wall, don't give too much and keep evaluating your position until you either get "even" or see there's no hope.

This won't work with some people, but it becomes a good litmus test to discover the kind of people you want to work with, and those you don't.

The main thing is to keep up your level of awareness throughout the process and constantly evaluate your positioning. If you can't move a "down" to at least an "even".... RUN!


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

Heritage, Great thread:thumbsup: In reading your OP, it appears that you as a contractor have your sh-i-t together, and should have no qualms about charging what you can when you can:thumbsup::thumbsup:. That being said, I believe communication is hands down your number one tool. 
In reading your scenario I understand your frustration... but I think that you are letting this one get a little deeper under your skin than you need to. Sure, you could have been more aggressive, but is that necessarily your style???. Maybe your way of doing business didn't lose you a stellar job, but rather kept you from signing a contract with someone that needed to be coddled thru the whole process, all the while turning that "stellar" job into a long drawn out wishy washy mess????
Bottom line is, you went with your gut! and I personally think that in the long run gut always trumps business models.
You said yourself that you know a majority of the good contractors in your area, odds are you'll hear how this one plays out. I for one am hoping you get to drop another hash mark in the "gut" column


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## Dan V. (Oct 16, 2008)

Bill Z. said,


> "*UP*" is what all of us strive for. The prospect already knows you are the right guy, they respect your opinion, and will follow your direction. A referral is _usually_ a great "Up".


GREAT points, Bill Z. Sales 101.

I'm a small one-man operation but have been extremely fortunate in this regard. My local hardware store refers me exclusively for all construction-related projects their customers ask about. I was shocked to learn this and when I asked them why I was the only one they recommended, they told me that I was the only one that returned all phone calls immediately and showed up when I said I would.


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## Florida11 (Dec 22, 2010)

This is an interesting thread, and the original story was well written. 

BillZ, you have a PHD in Psychology don't you? I like that simple system you wrote out, it's like a GPS system for selling. It's the ability to learn to read people, and not perceive them. Your next series should be written on re-connecting to our primal instincts, trusting our ability to sense bull%hit when it is close by. haha


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

Peter, I have had similar experiences a thousand times.

Sometimes, Toronto traffic simply cannot be avoided. If the guy lives in Toronto, he should understand that.

Right off the bat, though, you might have seen what was coming when he mentioned "sales pitch" A high end reno like this one, should not be sbject to a "sales pitch".

In November, I went to see someone about a deck. It wasn't a big one, but it wasn't easy, as it projected out over a ravine 16' down.
Saw him Monday. HAd the email and price out Wednesday.
Got an email the following Monday night to go ahead with the job. I responded within an hour. Pretty quick, I think? I said I'd call the next afternoon to arrange the contract.
I called him Tuesday afternoon, less than 24 hours after his email. HE'd already given the job to another contractor(who had already been to his house to sign a contract) because I wasn't responsive enough? Just exactly how responsive are you supposed to be?


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

Great feedback.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Peter, did you go get all those self inflicted bruises looked at by a doctor? :laughing:


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## Big Rig (Feb 23, 2009)

Heritage- at least you only stumbled and did not fall. I believe the lesson that you (we) learned will stick with you (us) for the future. Smile and remember that THEY missed out on working with a true professional. Now get back to your paying clients!


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

katoman said:


> Peter, did you go get all those self inflicted bruises looked at by a doctor? :laughing:


I don't go to Doctors.

$100 on the hooker. $30 on the Scotch.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

now thats a health plan:thumbup:


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

Heritage said:


> I don't go to Doctors.
> 
> $100 on the hooker. $30 on the Scotch.


You will eventually, due to one or the other.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Heritage said:


> I don't go to Doctors.
> 
> $100 on the hooker. $30 on the Scotch.


Have'nt you got that backwards? :laughing:


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