# To UNION or Not To UNION



## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

If you arent already union and using union workers... Stick with what works for you I'm a member of the OPEIU Local #227 Office & Professional...Aw "UNION PENCIL PUSHERS!" I got in the union solely to get access to union members as a Salesman.

They make good money (ON PAPER) but there are so many dues that they are worse off than someone on welfare. The only members that had nice houses were foremen or chapter leaders (Pres, vice pres...etc...)

_*Settle down I'll get to the point...*_

When you go to someones house who on paper makes $23 per hour and you are sitting on milk crates and the table is a cable spool... Something is just not right! They have too many fingers reaching in their pockets and when I went to their homes I was trying to stuff my fingers in there too. Thats why I left the INSURANCE BIZ. Don't get me wrong I went from a trainee to a MASTER GENERAL AGENT with 10 employees I got promoted and moved up to Fairview Heights Illinois within 4 months I worked right under the C.E.O. and was there to help him take over Il. and Mo. I was damned good at it and made some serious money at it, but I have a concience. 

If you go Union, your guys have to be Union and when it's break time they break. quitting time they quit you treat them mean they walk off and tomorrow they come back you can't do squat.

I'll probably get bashed for Knocking the U but...Those in the U are stuck in the U. I guarantee none of the lower end U workers will even have internet access to back up what I say... those who bash me will probably be somewhere in the middle or top of their Union.
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OK i just went back up and read all the responses... Looks like the 2 defending the U are the most inarticulate morons who can't even spell simple words... Guess you don't have to be smart to be union. I admit sometimes I misspell words but it's due to typing too fast or typing in poor lighting but DAYUM! These guys need not to defend the U because they make it look worse than it looked before. Did I mention U members are bitter people?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


Simple enough...
DON'T FIX WHAT DON'T NEED FIXING!


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> You don't even know what "RIGHT TO WORK" means. You have been listening to right wing radio to long........ Right to work laws, have NOTHING to do with having a right to have a job. NO STATE in America has a "right to have a job law".
> 
> Right to work, means the right to work union or non-union for the same employer, without paying union dues........


Right to work also means I don't have to give you an explanation for letting you go.

I never said right to work state meant right to have a job.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Framer,
> It would also help if you would learn to articulate your wordings.


 
ARI001,
You miss the point, when I want trash picked up, I hire a 12.00 dollar an hour guy. When I hire a 50.00 dollar an hour guy, he is not making me money, picking up trash......He makes me money, running a job...


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

some of the best carpenters i know are union
some of the worst are union too


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

ARI001 said:


> Framer,
> Consequently if I am paying you $50.00 an hour or whatever and I tell you to help the laborers pick up trash you better do it. I'm not paying you to stand around. I'm paying you to work. I don't care if you think it's below you or not. It boils down to I'm the one signing your paycheck. Do what I tell you or hit the unemployment line.


:laughing:
Then you better have carpentry work for me to do. Because unemployment pays 615 a week. Probably what your guys take home a week. You and I both know that is what you pay. Now take your trash with you through the same door you came through.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> You don't even know what "RIGHT TO WORK" means. You have been listening to right wing radio to long........ Right to work laws, have NOTHING to do with having a right to have a job. NO STATE in America has a "right to have a job law".
> 
> Right to work, means the right to work union or non-union for the same employer, without paying union dues........


Florida is a right to work state, that means I can fire people for any reason except, race, religion, sex, or sexual preference, if I don't like the way you smell or decide I just don't want you working for me I can fire you.

Can a non union worker get a job at a GM plant in Michigan?

Can GM Fire all of the lazy UAW workers and hire non union workers in its Michigan plants?


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Right to work also means I don't have to give you an explanation for letting you go.
> 
> I never said right to work state meant right to have a job.


 
Wrong again, I live in a closed shop state and I can fire anyone who works under me, without explanation. If they are union, I can still fire them..... for lack of production....

Would you like to try again......


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

tomstruble said:


> some of the best carpenters i know are union
> some of the worst are union too


And I agree with you. Trust me the slugs are not respected amongst their coworkers.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

JustaFramer said:


> :laughing:
> Then you better have carpentry work for me to do. Because unemployment pays 615 a week. Probably what your guys take home a week. You and I both know that is what you pay. Now take your trash with you through the same door you came through.


If there is work to be done you do it. You're missing the point; You are no good to me if all you do is stand around if there is other work to be done. If I tell dig footings by hand you better start digging. If I tell you pick up trash, you better start picking up trash. The point is whatever I tell you to do, you better do it or your gone. I don't care about your ego if its the end of the day and all that's left to do is pick up trash you better not be standing around telling the laborers to do it. You better be helping.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

bwalley said:


> Florida is a right to work state, that means I can fire people for any reason except, race, religion, sex, or sexual preference, if I don't like the way you smell or decide I just don't want you working for me I can fire you.
> 
> Can a non union worker get a job at a GM plant in Michigan?
> 
> Can GM Fire all of the lazy UAW workers and hire non union workers in its Michigan plants?


Can we fire all those lazy, CEO's on wall street or the banks or GM..?....... We should be able too, since they have run those businesses into the ground at our expense. They are lazy, lying, low down crooks who demand JOB PROTECTION and Bonus Protection even though they do a poor job. But I guess when they get there free market (welfare) bailout checks, that is rewarding hard work...... But when workers want a piece of the action, it's some how a sin.....


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

JustaFramer said:


> :laughing:
> Then you better have carpentry work for me to do. Because unemployment pays 615 a week. Probably what your guys take home a week. You and I both know that is what you pay. Now take your trash with you through the same door you came through.


Typical of a Union worker, if they think work is beneath them, they will sit at home on their lazy ass collecting unemployment, instead of working.

You just showed why not to hire union workers.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

why would you want an electrician to clean up or dig a hole?:whistling


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> Wrong again, I live in a closed shop state and I can fire anyone who works under me, without explanation. If they are union, I can still fire them..... for lack of production....
> 
> Would you like to try again......


Then they strike and shut your job down. You can request different guys but ultimately it's up to the union to comply. I know how it works. I've worked in union controlled areas before. You take the bad with the good.


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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

Heres an old saying I just made up...

If you have to tell me how good you are... You aren't that good!

My work speaks for itself.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> why would you want an electrician to clean up or dig a hole?:whistling


If that's all there is to do why are you unwilling to do it? Your being paid the same rate. Again your missing the point. I'm the one writing the check you do what I tell you.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

ok got it:thumbsup:


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> If there is work to be done you do it. You're missing the point; You are no good to me if all you do is stand around if there is other work to be done. If I tell dig footings by hand you better start digging. If I tell you pick up trash, you better start picking up trash. The point is whatever I tell you to do, you better do it or your gone. I don't care about your ego if its the end of the day and all that's left to do is pick up trash you better not be standing around telling the laborers to do it. You better be helping.


I don't care what you say, that is why I don't work for you, but I'm always happy to take work AWAY from you. You know what I did, several electrical contractors I worked for had ideas just like you. I took there customer's away from them, and put them on the unemployment line....... One of them even applied to work for me......I said, I will think about it....

I believe in making money, without being a prick......but have it your way.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> Can we fire all those lazy, CEO's on wall street or the banks or GM..?....... We should be able too, since they have run those businesses into the ground at our expense. They are lazy, lying, low down crooks who demand JOB PROTECTION and Bonus Protection even though they do a poor job. But I guess when they get there free market (welfare) bailout checks, that is rewarding hard work...... But when workers want a piece of the action, it's some how a sin.....


So because the CEO's are slackers and put companies out of business, it is OK for a union to do the same?

Why are non union auto plants in the US, in better financial shape than the UAW auto plants?

The steel union sure did a lot of good for the US steel mills didn't they?

Patco, great move:thumbsup:

Eastern Airlines Pilots union, great move:thumbsup:

The Teamsters really showed UPS didn't they? 

I know a guy who is in a Union in Florida he is an oiler for a Crane company, and he is learning how to operate a crane, he tries his best to keep a job and yet he is always getting laid off, but he is so hard core about being in a Union he won't even consider a non union job, yet his family suffers because of it.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> I don't care what you say, that is why I don't work for you, but I'm always happy to take work AWAY from you. You know what I did, several electrical contractors I worked for had ideas just like you. I took there customer's away from them, and put them on the unemployment line....... One of them even applied to work for me......I said, I will think about it....
> 
> I believe in making money, without being a prick......but have it your way.


You would not have lasted one day with me. I don't care for guys that are lazy and think they are better than everyone else. A typical symptom of a lot of union workers. I believe in making money to. I don't believe in someone standing around watching other guys work. Just because you have a higher skill set does not mean you get to stand around. You do that your costing me money. 

How do you run a business and not get the basic point here. It's not about your pay rate and skill set, it's about you telling the guy who PAYS you what you will and will not do. Business is about risk. I took a risk to open a business not you. You work for me because you where unwilling to take that risk. You do what I tell you because I told you to do it and I sign your check. Plain and simple.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

bwalley said:


> So because the CEO's are slackers and put companies out of business, it is OK for a union to do the same?
> 
> Why are non union auto plants in the US, in better financial shape than the UAW auto plants?
> 
> ...


 
Because he lives in a Anti-Union State, your friend suffers.......


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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

I see the "PICK UP TRASH" point and I see the "BETTER HAVE CARPENTRY FOR ME" point but when there is work to do and you have some free time...DO IT! I don't care who you are or think you are.

One rule I made for myself many years ago is that if I see a GC or Foreman pick up a broom or start picking up trash... I'll take over. and when I see that, all I needed was to see that they cared enough to even attempt to help. A foreman or GC who will do what I do even if I pick up trash will get my full respect over a GC or Foreman who acts or even jokes that My job is beneath them.

If I have workers that are stricktly laborers and they want to run the table saw, tile saw, Airless or any other equipment or show any interest in a trade other than trash pick up and Gopher duty they will quickly become my new aprentice. I'll teach them like they were my next foreman and all of a sudden they got a pay raise and the other guys who want to just pick up trash or be helpers will still be helpers 10 years from now and probably making 1/3 of what my little apprentice makes. and they'll work for him.

Recently I had a kid with that drive and thirst for knowlege and was looking for a picture of him at my tilesaw but can't find it at the moment. He is now laying tile on his own.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Western,
I don't have a problem with organizing to ensure a fair pay rate and good treatment. My problem is that a lot of union guys and unions abuse the employers. If you are a carpenter then yes it is foolish to have you do laborer work at a carpenters pay. However if your the only body available or that is all there is to do, and you refuse to do it then I would be foolish to not replace you with someone willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done.


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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> why would you want an electrician to clean up or dig a hole?:whistling


Because the hole needs to be dug and he's available.

He makes more money so his hole will be better ha ha


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## sirfranky (Jul 28, 2009)

*Missing the point*

The original post was to go union or not? 
So here's my take if you go union you get to bid on public work projects and in this obama economy there alot of it out here. The next thing is no..... you make laborers do the cleanup, just because your on a schedule to go to the next thing being built. Duh

Here's the real kick in the pants to all the contractors out there you just got your dream job handed to ya 40 million dollar condo project and your guys all left cause you ran out of work and your holding nothing but a set of plans. 
One call to the hall you got foreman, supers and as many trained guys as you need from start to finish and when your done they go on there way without a care and you count your cash and you don't have to teach them A.C. if they don't know there out of there.......:w00t::w00t::w00t:


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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> I don't care what you say, that is why I don't work for you, but I'm always happy to take work AWAY from you. You know what I did, several electrical contractors I worked for had ideas just like you. I took there customer's away from them, and put them on the unemployment line....... One of them even applied to work for me......I said, I will think about it....
> 
> I believe in making money, without being a prick......but have it your way.


Hmmm... Smells like a PR!CK....Sounds like a PR!CK...Must be a......


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

well more expensive for sure:clap:


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> You would not have lasted one day with me. I don't care for guys that are lazy and think they are better than everyone else. A typical symptom of a lot of union workers. I believe in making money to. I don't believe in someone standing around watching other guys work. Just because you have a higher skill set does not mean you get to stand around. You do that your costing me money.
> 
> How do you run a business and not get the basic point here. It's not about your pay rate and skill set, it's about you telling the guy who PAYS you what you will and will not do. Business is about risk. I took a risk to open a business not you. You work for me because you where unwilling to take that risk. You do what I tell you because I told you to do it and I sign your check. Plain and simple.


 
Let me break it down for you, like a small child. The LARGEST Electrical Contractors in the entire Untied States are UNION. So your idea that Union Contractors, are some how disadvantaged is a myth. 

BTW, a guy like you, would never last a second with me, because you are the kind of guy who uses any tool in the tool box, like using a screw driver for a chisel. We hire people for there skills and use them for those skills and yes they are expensive, but they get the job done, on time and under budget........hence Wealthiest Electrical Contractors in America......Union Electrical Contractors......Stop listening to to bad businessmen....

Also, I get your point, about working together with your employer......all employee must be will to do that. We run a business, not a charity. I just learned to make money, without lording over my guys....


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

sirfranky said:


> One call to the hall you got foreman, supers and as many trained guys as you need from start to finish and when your done they go on there way without a care and you count your cash and you don't have to teach them A.C. if they don't know there out of there.......:w00t::w00t::w00t:


 
Well sirfranky since *87%+ of all construction workers in the US are NON-Union your theory doesn't work:laughing::laughing::laughing:*


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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

I guess the consensus here is.....

Wait what?!

If you're a Union member/family GO UNION...

If you're not UNION... DON'T Go UNION!

This wasn't supposed to be a debate...was it?


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> Let me break it down for you, like a small child. The LARGEST Electrical Contractors in the entire Untied States are UNION. So your idea that Union Contractors, are some how disadvantaged is a myth.
> 
> BTW, a guy like you, would never last a second with me, because you are the kind of guy who uses any tool in the tool box, like using a screw driver for a chisel. We hire people for there skills and use them for those skills and yes they are expensive, but they get the job done, on time and under budget........hence Wealthiest Electrical Contractors in America......Union Electrical Contractors......Stop listening to to bad businessmen....
> 
> Also, I get your point, about working together with your employer......all employee must be will to do that. We run a business, not a charity. I just learned to make money, without lording over my guys....


 I never said disadvantaged. Lazy, egotistical, and self serving yes. But I never said disadvantaged. Whatever you are doing you have to be smarter than the tool you are working with. Somehow I think maybe a screwdriver has the edge over you.:laughing:


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

Brickie said:


> Well sirfranky since *87%+ of all construction workers in the US are NON-Union your theory doesn't work:laughing::laughing::laughing:*


 
That percentage is decieving....that counts everyone including handymen....

Every trade is different. With electrical it's not the same. Many state require the employee to be licensed to work for a contractor......drywall, painting, carpet layers, doen't have to licensed as employees and can be replaced by anyone, including illegal's....this is why many General Contractors have a plantation mentallity.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

MZ-HANDYMAN said:


> This wasn't supposed to be a debate...was it?


Debate??? What for? The largest & weathiest construction company in the US happens to be NON-UNION:clap::clap:


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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

brickie said:


> debate??? What for? The largest & weathiest construction company in the us happens to be non-union:clap::clap:


ok, i'll bite..... ?


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> I never said disadvantaged. Lazy, egotistical, and self serving yes. But I never said disadvantaged. Whatever you are doing you have to be smarter than the tool you are working with. Somehow I think maybe a screwdriver has the edge over you.:laughing:


It's Ok, if I didn't have skills, I would have become a General Contractor too.......LOL


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

Brickie said:


> Debate??? What for? The largest & weathiest construction company in the US happens to be NON-UNION:clap::clap:


I didn't say Construction company's.....I said Electrical Contractors.....


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> It's Ok, if I didn't have skills, I would have become a General Contractor too.......LOL


If you had business skills and building skills you would have become a GC. Sorry, I forgot union.
FYI carpenter by trade. :clap:


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

MZ-HANDYMAN said:


> ok, i'll bite..... ?


 
*Halliburton*


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Brickie said:


> Debate??? What for? The largest & weathiest construction company in the US happens to be NON-UNION:clap::clap:


Big Deal sweet tits. I work for these guys. How much volume did you do last year? :laughing: You and the other two machine gun mouths with row boat ass's. Go circle jerk in blue house. :laughing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_Construction



> Turner Construction Company is one of the largest construction management companies in the United States with a construction volume of $10.6 billion in 2008.
> 
> 
> .....Turner has 46 offices in the U.S., is active in 20 countries around the world and averages 1,500 projects per year. Turner services include construction management, general contracting, consulting, construction procurement, insurance and risk management. According to Engineering News-Record’s 2008 Top 400 Contractors Sourcebook, Turner is the largest "Green contractor" in the United States[4] and the third largest contractor overall in the United States.[5] In 2008, Turner completed more than $3 billion of green construction projects.[6] In addition, the firm’s sustainable construction work has grown to 40% of its backlog.[6] Turner’s green building projects are in wide array of building types including in the education, commercial, healthcare and aviation segments. Turner has completed 80 projects that have been LEED Certified by the U. S. Green Building Council (USGBC).[6] An additional 130 projects are LEED Registered.[6] Turner City illustrates projects Turner has successfully completed in a given year. It has been produced by the company annually since 1910.[1]


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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)




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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

Brickie said:


> *Halliburton*


Yeah, it was all those welfare, I mean "NO BID" Republican contracts, that rewarded hard work.......boy that sure was good Republican Government guarding the tax payers. If I ever hear another Republican talk about the competition and balanced budgets to protect the tax payers, I think I will trough up......

Guys like you talk about GM and the Unions getting a bailout, but you had no problem with Cheney and Halliburton getting no bid contracts.....


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> I don't have a problem with profits either, that is what makes capitalism work. However, certain things don't work based on profit. The NeoCon's.....or better ConMen....would have you believe that everything works better with a profit motive......
> 
> There is a reason we don't privatize everything, my child. The police are government. If we turned it over to the private sector, not very many rapes, robbery's, or murders would get solved.....ie. no money in it. But I can sure image a hell of a lot of traffic citations being written. I can just see the CEO of the Police force telling his officer's screw those murders, were can have a very profitable year enforcing traffic laws.....and most of those people don't shot back.....
> 
> With every post you reveal how little you know, except for your Rush Limbaigh talking points......


More manpower in many police agenies are devoted to traffic enforcement than rapes, murders and other crimes.

It is easier and more proffitable to write traffic tickets than to spend time looking for a rapist.

Look at how many detectives there are in a department, versus how many traffic cops there are, you will be surprised.

The main job of the FHP is traffic enforcement, they are the state police in Florida, it is a good agency and a very good friend of mine is a FHP Trooper, he enforces traffic laws, he does not investigate rapes or murders, although I am sure he has been involved with traffic homicide cases.

BTW most police officers are in a UNION.


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

You guys have been playing the "who's got the bigger dick" game for 5 pages now, and no one has asked the OP the most important question- what kind of work are we talking about??? 

There are project types and locales where going union makes perfect sense and would be highly recommended- in other cases it'd be a completely moronic move. If the OP is looking to get into larger and larger commercial projects, the easy availability of fairly competent labor may make going union feasible. If, on the other hand, the projects we're talking about are smaller commercial projects or residential projects, it wouldn't make much sense at all. I've worked both on both union and non-union projects, residential and commercial, ranging from $2,000 to over $300,000,000, and there's no "one-size fits-all" answer to this question.

You guys have been going at the "I"m a carpenter- I don't pick up trash" bit as well. Guess what- on smaller projects, it's not feasible to have a "I only do carpentry" guy, a "I only tape drywall" guy, etc.- there are times when you might have to rip out some drywall in the morning, spend a few hours framing a new wall, hang a few sheets of drywall, and then sling some mud on the board you just hung. Ohh, and, god forbid, you might even have to spend five minutes throwing your scrap in the dumpster at the end of the day (don't worry- no one will see you). You can't have a laborer, a carpenter, and a taper all sitting around for 2/3 of the day each on such a job if you expect to get it done profitably, and if you price it that way, all three of those guys will be looking for work elsewhere, as you'll never get the job.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

Bob Kovacs said:


> You guys have been playing the "who's got the bigger dick" game for 5 pages now, and no one has asked the OP the most important question- what kind of work are we talking about???
> 
> There are project types and locales where going union makes perfect sense and would be highly recommended- in other cases it'd be a completely moronic move. If the OP is looking to get into larger and larger commercial projects, the easy availability of fairly competent labor may make going union feasible. If, on the other hand, the projects we're talking about are smaller commercial projects or residential projects, it wouldn't make much sense at all. I've worked both on both union and non-union projects, residential and commercial, ranging from $2,000 to over $300,000,000, and there's no "one-size fits-all" answer to this question.
> 
> You guys have been going at the "I"m a carpenter- I don't pick up trash" bit as well. Guess what- on smaller projects, it's not feasible to have a "I only do carpentry" guy, a "I only tape drywall" guy, etc.- there are times when you might have to rip out some drywall in the morning, spend a few hours framing a new wall, hang a few sheets of drywall, and then sling some mud on the board you just hung. Ohh, and, god forbid, you might even have to spend five minutes throwing your scrap in the dumpster at the end of the day (don't worry- no one will see you). You can't have a laborer, a carpenter, and a taper all sitting around for 2/3 of the day each on such a job if you expect to get it done profitably, and if you price it that way, all three of those guys will be looking for work elsewhere, as you'll never get the job.


 
Bob,

And just when I had ARI001 and bwalley on the verge of a mental break down, you wrecked my plan.....LOL..:laughing:


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## XanadooLTD (Oct 6, 2007)

Well it is 2 jobs awarded every two weeks, and average cost is $50,000 each. Complete rennovations. Plumber-not union. Electrician-Union. All other work completed by subs at this time and none are union members. I just want quality workmanship. I know there are a lot of people to choose from now, but not everyone really wants to work. I hear a lot of excusses, and i am tired of it. The union guys i know might do electrical in the morning, drywall by lunch and run a bobcat by finish time. The union guys i know of are pretty versatile. That is why i am thinking about going union. I just don't want to pull the plug on the good guys. The guys that do show up, but aren't union. That to me, would be unfair. I have a wonderful roofing crew that loves to work, but if i go union, i have to go with the union roofers...


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

XanadooLTD said:


> Well it is 2 jobs awarded every two weeks, and average cost is $50,000 each. Complete rennovations. Plumber-not union. Electrician-Union. All other work completed by subs at this time and none are union members. I just want quality workmanship. I know there are a lot of people to choose from now, but not everyone really wants to work. I hear a lot of excusses, and i am tired of it. The union guys i know might do electrical in the morning, drywall by lunch and run a bobcat by finish time. The union guys i know of are pretty versatile. That is why i am thinking about going union. I just don't want to pull the plug on the good guys. The guys that do show up, but aren't union. That to me, would be unfair. I have a wonderful roofing crew that loves to work, but if i go union, i have to go with the union roofers...


If you want to go union then go union...... you can keep the guys you have now, they just have to join the union. The union business manager will let you keep the guys you already have.......


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> I don't have a problem with profits either, that is what makes capitalism work. However, certain things don't work based on profit. The NeoCon's.....or better ConMen....would have you believe that everything works better with a profit motive......
> 
> There is a reason we don't privatize everything, my child. The police are government. If we turned it over to the private sector, not very many rapes, robbery's, or murders would get solved.....ie. no money in it. But I can sure image a hell of a lot of traffic citations being written. I can just see the CEO of the Police force telling his officer's screw those murders, were can have a very profitable year enforcing traffic laws.....and most of those people don't shot back.....
> 
> With every post you reveal how little you know, except for your Rush Limbaigh talking points......


Really, is that so, how do you explain bounty hunters then? They pull in some of the roughest guys out there. Why would they want to do that? Oh, I know, the bounties are higher. 

With every post you reveal how much the union has brainwashed you. I don't know anybody including police, politicians, government workers, auto workers, and construction workers that work for free. Obviously money is a motive. Some of the biggest con men going are teamsters.

Not for profits even provide services for what? Oh, thats right money. CEO's of these orginizations (which the government is one of) make some of the largest salaries out there.

Why do you assume I listen to Rush Limbaigh? I actually have never listened to his show. I do know he has a large audience, but I prefer to listen to people that are not strung out on pain killers. I will admit to watching Fox News as well as CNN. I also read The Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal. I have listened to a variety of talk radio ranging from Kojo Nomday and All things Considered to right wing shows such as Glen Beck and Mark Levine. I even admit to listening to Rome (can't listen to politics all of the time it will drive you batty). I don't take any to heart as they all have their own agendas to push.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> If you want to go union then go union...... you can keep the guys you have now, they just have to join the union. The union business manager will let you keep the guys you already have.......


Why should guys that don't want to join the union be forced to do so if they want to continue to work for him and and he wants to continue to employ them? Who is the union business manager to make those decisions for his company or said employees? He has no stake in the company and no money invested in the company. Therefore what right does he have to dictate to the company and employees that they have to be all union or no union. It's more of the same B.S from the union. Do this or else. Sounds like organized crime if you ask me.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Really, is that so, how do you explain bounty hunters then? They pull in some of the roughest guys out there. Why would they want to do that? Oh, I know, the bounties are higher.
> 
> With every post you reveal how much the union has brainwashed you. I don't know anybody including police, politicians, government workers, auto workers, and construction workers that work for free. Obviously money is a motive. Some of the biggest con men going are teamsters.
> 
> ...


ARI001,

I don't mean to suggest your are not smart, just not fully understanding of things...

Most Bounty Hunter are also BAILBONDS MAN, they chase those guys down to avoid paying the courts huge somes of money they put up to get people out of jail...... Yes, a few collect public and private rewards put up to bring a high profile fugative. However, most of the bail jumpers are tracked down by the guy who fronted the money to get them out of jail.......not because the pay is so great. In fact they get to keep only 10 percent in most cases if the accused doesn't jump bail. If they are chasing a fugative, most of the time it is to AVOID paying huge somes of money.....that is a good motive, if you as me....

BTW, the rights of the union you are talking about, are the LAW of the US. Passed by Congress and signed into law by the President.......that is why they have a right, not because you may or may not think they should have a right.

That same law give the EMPLOYEE's the right to organize into a union, without the consent of the EMPLOYER.....Its called the Wagner Act.....


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Sorry Bob, 
I can't stand the pantywaists who are so insecure in themselves and their skill set they have to hide behind organized "unions" that negotiate b.s. rates for half the work that would normally be expected. I also can't stand guys that are not willing to take the risk of owning their own business yet think they know how one needs to be run. The going rate is whatever the market will bare while maintaining your overhead and profit margin. It is not what some half rate meat head thinks it is because of some preconceived notion fed to him by people who need to give him a reason to pay his dues every month.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Why should guys that don't want to join the union be forced to do so if they want to continue to work for him and and he wants to continue to employ them? Who is the union business manager to make those decisions for his company or said employees? He has no stake in the company and no money invested in the company. Therefore what right does he have to dictate to the company and employees that they have to be all union or no union. It's more of the same B.S from the union. Do this or else. Sounds like organized crime if you ask me.


 
This is where you and me have a great difference of opinion...

You want your employee's to follow all those laws that protect YOU....like not stealing from you, filing a false workman's comp claim, ect.....

However, you have contempt for the law that are in place to protect your EMPLOYEE's.

I respect all the laws of the United States those that protect me and my employee's.....not because I'm brainwashed as you put it. Because they are the laws of this nation, of which I love. I don't just do what's right , when it suit's me.........


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

I'm familiar with the Wagner act. It does not give the union the right to force employees of the company to join when they do not want to. That is what the whole secret ballet argument is about. The Wagner act does not force a business to use union workers only. It gives the workers employed by the company the right to organize and negotiate. It does not state that the business must comply with every demand either. 

Yes many bounty hunters are bail bondsmen that have a staked interest in the fugitive. That still does not change the fact that they go after more notorious criminals as well due to the large awards associated with them. They are monetarily motivated to do so.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

bwalley said:


> My guys clean up their own mess and when they need to will help the laborer's, instead of *standing around doing nothing.
> *





ARI001 said:


> Framer,
> Consequently if I am paying you $50.00 an hour or whatever and I tell you to help the laborers pick up trash you better do it.* I'm not paying you to stand around. *I'm paying you to work.


The problem I see is this:
You haven't given your men enough work to do in an 8 hour day...they got it done ahead of schedule....maybe you don't give your men enough credit.

So you either cannot layout work for the men...or cannot man a job properly.

...and now it becomes the man's fault because you are incompetent?

LOOK OUT BELOW......slow rolling bus backing up :laughing:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

ARI001 said:


> Right to work also means I don't have to give you an explanation for letting you go.
> 
> I never said right to work state meant right to have a job.


I'm in a "work at will" State.
A man can be fired for any reason[known as "cause"]...or no reason.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Brickie said:


> Speaking of Union welfare and ripping off the taxpayers.....
> 
> Boston, MA "The Big Dig" - _Cost spirals to $22b; crushing debt sidetracks other work, pushes agency toward insolvency_
> 
> http://www.boston.com/news/traffic/...g_digs_red_ink_engulfs_state/?s_campaign=8315



You think it was labor's fault???

Engineers NEVER make mistakes.



The same with the "Big 3"...blame the guy in the trenches because he's the most visible target.


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

XanadooLTD

As for your question I think Most people will tell you the size of one’s member doesn’t matter as long as you know how to…. OH WAIT!:blink:

As for your question Yes I do think ANYONE can pretend to be ANYONE on the internet it’s because the web is so vast and anonymity is easy to……DAMN!:wallbash:

OK I got it…..

To Union or Not Union 

I was a union steward, rep, contract negotiator and organizer for 11 years. I think that in the right circumstance a union CAN be beneficial. Is it always NO! If you are paying your workers fair and treating them fair then a union really has no place.

Having a well written contract can be beneficial for BOTH sides it gives you a guideline in which BOTH parties can adhere to for productivity but, for the most part so does a company handbook and policy.

The latter is geared more to help management and F&*k employees but if you’re a fair employer it will show in your actions.

Unions differ and right to work states usually have weaker unions. They also have different rules and guidelines. To help in weighing your decision a trip to a union hall and visiting with a business rep might enlighten some benefits of union employees. It will ALSO help you determine the cons too.

As others pointed out if say a union carpenter WON’T do something and is costing you X amount of dollars it might not be profitable. If you are considering Gov bids or the likes MORE so than not well union.

From what I’ve seen of construction/trade unions in Fl, I would hesitate to join. 

A friend of mine was making about $18 an hour and went to a local hall. (His dad was WAY pro union!!) They offered him $14 an hour placement until he established more Seniority.

I met a union plumber in So Fla on my jobsite nice guy GOOD worker. After the project reached a certain phase he was transferred to another job. I ran into him at wal-mart 8 months later. I asked him what he was up to? As he turned to face me I noticed his name tag. He said,” 2 months after I was transferred they scaled back the project and I was laid off.” So Why don’t you go to another jobsite(at the time there where one on every block)? “I can’t I’m union and can only go to job they send me to.” $18 an hour to wal-mart!

From your stand point it sounds like you are and can use both union and non union trades and workers. If you are being successful with it as is why gum up the works? You know the "don't fix it" addage? 

Appeasing your families beliefs is noble but not always sound business practice. Maybe a 30, 60,____day trial would give you a solid hands on decision. But DO WHAT IT TAKES to keep those loyal workers!!!

If you go the union route and they’re good all purpose guys perhaps you can employee them directly they become management and trump the “union only” thing.


Is it feasible that if you have 2 similar projects coming up that you can have only union subs on one and non on the other?

As far as scab. ONLY if you cross a picket line when union members are on strike can “scab” be used in its’ truest form. 
I worked on a union/non union job site didn't get ANY **** from the union guys. We ALL worked together. :clap:


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

Celtic said:


> You think it was labor's fault???
> 
> Engineers NEVER make mistakes.
> 
> ...


 
Celtic,

They just can't see the forest for the the trees. Its they way our whole world has become..... Now, if a battle goes bad, they even blame the grunts in the trenches, not the General, who planned and lead the attack.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> This is where you and me have a great difference of opinion...
> 
> You want your employee's to follow all those laws that protect YOU....like not stealing from you, filing a false workman's comp claim, ect.....
> 
> ...


I have never stopped anyone from organizing nor have I encouraged anyone to break the law whether it benefited me or not. Let me ask you this; If unions are so beneficial to everybody involved why are the majority of construction workers not union members? Why do people in some areas try to restrict union power by refusing to join? 

Also FYI right to work laws ensure the rights of an employee to decide whether or not to join or to otherwise financially support a union.

Just so you don't think I am completely uninformed other acts that affect labor organizing are:

Norris La Guardia Act
National Labor Relations Act
Taft-Hartley Act
Landrum-Griffen Act


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> I have never stopped anyone from organizing nor have I encouraged anyone to break the law whether it benefited me or not. Let me ask you this; If unions are so beneficial to everybody involved why are the majority of construction workers not union members? Why do people in some areas try to restrict union power by refusing to join?
> 
> Also FYI right to work laws ensure the rights of an employee to decide whether or not to join or to otherwise financially support a union.
> 
> ...


I'm glad to know you have read other laws......To answer your question, they don't because of retaliation by employers. When I worked with the tools in the field, I saw many employee's who were fired, because they exercised there right under the law to organized a union in there workplace. The employers, just make up any reason, other than race, sex, union status....ect. I know you know this as do almost all businessman. I have sat in at Chamber of Commerce meeting's and listen to consultant's talk about ways to basiclly violate the law and keep your business, union free. Employee's are smarter than you imply in your question....They don't join for the most part, because of retaliation from employers, who hold labor laws in comtempt.....


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Celtic said:


> The problem I see is this:
> You haven't given your men enough work to do in an 8 hour day...they got it done ahead of schedule....maybe you don't give your men enough credit.
> 
> So you either cannot layout work for the men...or cannot man a job properly.
> ...


My guys are always given plenty of work, the least productive people I have ever worked with was the elevator guys, they were always threatening to pull off the job, complaining about their rights, etc.

My employees do what I tell them to, if they don't they don't work for me anymore, it is as simple as that.

The only union people who will be on my job is the elevator people, they are subcontractors so if their guys are lazy and milk the clock it doesn't bother me as I am paying a fixed price, if they choose not to clean up after themselves, that is fine as well because I will have my employees do it and they will be charged for it (an it will not be cheap), if they smoke on the job, they will be thrown off the job, all of this is in my contract that they signed.


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

bwalley said:


> My guys are always given plenty of work, the least productive people I have ever worked with was the elevator guys, they were always threatening to pull off the job, complaining about their rights, etc.
> 
> 
> The only union people who will be on my job is the elevator people, they are subcontractors so if their guys are lazy and milk the clock it doesn't bother me as I am paying a fixed price, if they choose not to clean up after themselves, that is fine as well because I will have my employees do it and they will be charged for it (an it will not be cheap), if they smoke on the job, they will be thrown off the job, all of this is in my contract that they signed.


Must be Ottis :laughing::laughing:


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

or Kone


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

You assholes don't know the Carpenters. We can hustle our work. Don't have to wait for a dispatch. If I interview well I get the job. :lol:

Wish I had more time to laugh at you but I have to run to work and cut another base package for another floor on a tower. So we can get it done in 4 days. One day ahead of schedule again. :lol:


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Western,
As I said, I have never prevented anyone from organizing or from exercising his or her rights. I don’t misclassify employees or try to coerce them into giving up any of their rights. I realize there are employers out there who have shady practices and try to take advantage of people. Surly you recognize there are unions that do the same.

The issue I have with unions is that many (not all) go beyond protecting the employees and border on extortion. I don’t have a problem with the union saying this is skilled labor and needs to be paid a fare wage accordingly. I don’t have a problem with them saying to a business you need to enforce OSHA laws and guidelines. I don’t have a problem with them saying employees need to get a lunch break and be able to use the restroom, etc. 

Obviously the better you treat your employees and the more appreciated they feel the more productive they will be. From a business stand point it is more beneficial to treat employees fairly. Buy doing so most employees in return treat the business better. They have mutual interest in the business and realize that it is a symbiotic relationship. 

I have an issue with the union telling the business what the job description of the employee(s) will be. I have an issue with the union setting inappropriate wages regardless of whether they are low or high. Money is the proven number one motivator that employers can use to reward and encourage their employees to be productive. Recognition is the second motivator. These are statistical facts. Construction is a production-orientated job regardless of trade.

By setting pay rates based on skill-set and time in, the unions take away the main motivator of the business. This also encourages non-productive mannerisms whether sub-consciously or not. Additionally it is not economically sound business to pay someone to stand around most of the day so they can play maid to the skilled trades. It is a different situation if the laborers can work/learn the skilled position when not performing menial tasks. This is typically how many start to learn their eventual trade. The more they learn the more valuable they become and the more they make. Many unions prevent this and their general policy is a carpenter is a carpenter, an operator is an operator, a laborer is a laborer, etc.

The other problem with some unions is they refuse to accept that in order for the business to survive they must be able to stay competitive. The big 3 are a prime example of this. The more financial demands you put on a company the higher the end product must become to finance these demands and make a profit. If the company cannot get the appropriate returns for the product they will cease to exist. This is basic economics. 

Some unions make constant demands from the company or business simply to justify the dues and increases in them they charge their members. This is monetarily motivated as they use the dues to pay their salaries and increase their pay. The union essentially becomes a business entity of its own driven by the need to acquire more funds. Once this happens I find it hard to believe the union is looking out for the best interests of its members. Hence why I said earlier that some unions border on extortion.

There are good and bad businesses and there are good and bad unions. While using the union may have an advantage in that it is a labor pool that you do not have to keep continuously employed. It can have many disadvantages to both businesses and employees as well. I obviously have had predominately bad experiences with unions, though honestly not since I have been in business on my own. I do know many guys that have work/worked in and around unions and most do not like the unions for a variety of reasons. I myself did not care for the union when I had joined it either; as the employee of a company that was not union but working in a unionized area where their were no right to work laws on the books. It aggravated me greatly to pay dues to a union I had no desire to be a part of simply to be able to work in their territory. Coincidently I was being paid more by my employer then the union would have required they pay me. 

Framer, 

Does your boss know your wasting company time again playing on the computer? STFU and get to work! LOL


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

jtpro said:


> or Kone


or Thyssen Krupp

or Shindler

or "Insert Elevator Company Name Here"

They all suck. I've yet to find an elevator company that has guys that show up, do what they're supposed to, don't piss and moan about every little issue, and actually finish on time. If you find one, please let me know......


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## XanadooLTD (Oct 6, 2007)

Thyssen doesn't seem to give any problems in Ohio. Maybe because no one is watching.


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## NickTech (Feb 13, 2005)

in my expierience with unions, presently being an HVAC/R instuctor in the teachers union with the UAW, is that they breed laziness with in the ranks. since there has been a minimum standard set forth some employees use it as the only standard and are not motivated to excel or just blatently refuse to do any more than the minimum. when there is a motivated employee that is willing to go above and beyond they are ridiculed and ostrisized as a troulble maker because it shines a light on how much less eveyone else is doing. in and of itself union are good, they are there to protect employees from unfair practices, however human nature as it is will try to exploit loop holes in the name of greed or just plain laziness. point blank- if you know your job, and are good at it and are willing to excel then you should never worry about work. if a company is so bad that it needs a union to protect its employees, than one should reconsider there employment there. if an employee is so bad that it needs a union to represent them, then i dont want him working with me or for me. all this and a buck can get ya a cup of coffee!


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

jtpro said:


> Must be Otis :laughing::laughing:


How did you know?


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

bwalley said:


> How did you know?


My best freind works for one of the largest elevator consulting firms in the world I get EARFULLS on his bad days!:laughing:

Personally my latest "experience" was when I was working just south of you and it was Kone. 

Along with other problems like elevators didn't all call to the ground floor EVEN when the fire fighters put in their key! I was trapped in the service elevator TWICE!!!!!:furious: 

This one was online less than 3 FKing months and SELDOM used!


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

ARI001 said:


> Framer,
> 
> Does your boss know your wasting company time again playing on the computer? STFU and get to work! LOL



Yeah he does. He's union also. So he said I could waste all the company time in the world to screw with you. :w00t:


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

bwalley said:


> As a business owner I think uisng Union workers is going to be a mistake, since the guys you have been using have been reliable and with you through thick and thin I would stick with them.


Well, as a Union company I can give you some answers to the questions raised here.



bwalley said:


> What advantage are you going to get by using Union workers?


If you do much commercial work, or want to do commercial work, there are a couple of primary advantages for using union workers, the foremost being you will get more work from other union contractors.

That is a big deal here since a most of the commercial projects are done by Hoffman, Turner, Skanska, and other union signatories. They are encouraged to, and tend to hire other union companies before non-union ones unless the non-union bid is something like 20% below the lowest union bid.

Other advantages are the apprenticeship training programs which (are supposed to) ensure a minimum level of training and knowledge of the employees you might hire from the available labor pool. Of course, like anywhere else, it comes down to the individual carpenter. But if you need cheaper labor that SHOULD HAVE a certain amount of training, you can call the hall and they'll send you guys the next day - sometimes the same day.

Your can tell the hall you need a guy with specific certifications such as fork lift, scissor lift, all terrain lift, whatever and they'll make sure you get someone who has certification.

Also substance abuse and safety training are big ones. Union workers need valid drug test cards that show they've passed a screening in the last 12 months (6 for Hoffman); and union members are all CPR certified and have had safety procedures and policies drilled into them over and over.



bwalley said:


> Will they be better workers? Will they be more or less productive?


That's based on the individual. Both union and non-union have fantastic carpenters and total losers. If there are guys you like to work with, who are great employees, there is no reason you can't bring them over as Journeymen carpenters if you choose to be a union shop.



bwalley said:


> Will they cost more. less, or the same??


They will always cost more EXCEPT for prevailing wage jobs where they will cost about the same as non-union carpenters. Most prevailing wage jobs in OR and WA require certified payrolls meaning you have to document that you are paying all of your employees working the job the current prevailing wage for that job.



bwalley said:


> Will they do more than one trade?[/?


No. If they are carpenters, they will only be allowed to do carpentry, not electrical, plumbing, etc. There is some crossover for a few things such as electronic door hardware or storefront door hardware, but in general they can't do another trade's work.

There are definitely some negatives to the union. Especially for residential work around here where the union is pretty weak. It's extremely tough to compete with non-union companies. Even though the residential pay scale is much lower than commercial, you have to pay fringe such as health and welfare (health insurance), pension, etc.

A lot of non-union guys are paying a lot less in wages and generally not paying health benefits. But better caliber employers generally do pay some sort of benefits in addition to wages, so if you have a really good crew, your bid prices might not be much different.

Depending on your target profit margin, you will still be able to be competetive with some of the mid to high end companies.

If your work is primarily going to be commercial, I say definitely look into it. If it is primarily residential, then look at the percentage of union companies doing residential work in your area (here we have five companies total) to help make your decision.

There is also the possibility of an 'open shop' where some employees are union and some aren't. If I had to do it all over again, I'd probably have gone this route (and still may) in order to be more competitive in the residential arena.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> You will probably pay more and get less using union workers. They get paid the same amount regardless as to whether or not they meet production standards. The down side to unions has always been that they don't motivate people to do more and get recognized.


What a load of BULL CRAP. Being in the carpenter's union offers employees ZERO job protection. It's the same on the union side as non-union side: producers stay and get paid, everyone else gets sent home.

You meet production standards and get paid. Well paid. You don't meet those standards then you're gone. There always is someone else ready and willing (especially now) to take your well paying job.

And the employers motivate their people, not the union. Trade unions pretty much only negotiate a contract price for labor; beyond that all the individual members are basically free agents.

You get the right guys, they'll work hard for you and make you money. You get jerks, and you'll lose money. Same on both sides.

There are downsides to being a union employer, but the statement posted above is just ignorant.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

bwalley said:


> If I hire a Union guy to do steel framing, is he going to do other crafts as well or just 1 craft?
> 
> I have my framer do both steel and wood, he cut concrete today, helped a laboror clean up some concrete, picks up trash or anything else that needs to be done, I am also teaching him A/C as well.
> 
> How would a Union worker handle the above scenario?


Bwalley, 

HERE (Pacific NW) the definition of 'carpentry' encompasses everything you mentioned above including sheetrock, ceiling grid, concrete finishing, constructing & stripping concrete forms, cabinetry, trim & millwork, countertops, doors & hardware, flooring, roofing (some types), layout, and yes picking up trash. (Done more than my fair share of that).

And to answer someone else's question, yes, given the choices I'd prefer my son to be a union carpenter because he'd get paid better, be in generally safer work environments where people don't think OSHA is a joke, have health care for his family, etc.

If he wanted to work non-union and it was a good reputable company, fine. I have NOTHING against non-union carpenters - we're all carpenters.
But good union carpenters generally make more than their non-union counterparts.

As an owner, that's not great for the bottom line, but there are plenty of union contractors making money and paying their employees well to boot. And as a person who used to be an employee, I feel great that I am able to do both.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> ARI001,
> You miss the point, when I want trash picked up, I hire a 12.00 dollar an hour guy. When I hire a 50.00 dollar an hour guy, he is not making me money, picking up trash......He makes me money, running a job...


That's what apprentices are for! :thumbsup:


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

XanadooLTD said:


> Well it is 2 jobs awarded every two weeks, and average cost is $50,000 each. Complete rennovations. Plumber-not union. Electrician-Union. All other work completed by subs at this time and none are union members. I just want quality workmanship. I know there are a lot of people to choose from now, but not everyone really wants to work. I hear a lot of excusses, and i am tired of it. The union guys i know might do electrical in the morning, drywall by lunch and run a bobcat by finish time. The union guys i know of are pretty versatile. That is why i am thinking about going union. I just don't want to pull the plug on the good guys. The guys that do show up, but aren't union. That to me, would be unfair. I have a wonderful roofing crew that loves to work, but if i go union, i have to go with the union roofers...


Open shop, man. You CAN have both union and non-union employees. The union just doesn't trumpet that fact.

Plus, if you wanted to go all union, you can always bring your roofers over into the union. Unless they have a drug affair with mary jane or whatever, they shouldn't be too upset at the prospect of making union scale while working for you and continuing to do the same job.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

I have heard so many complaints on here about Mexican workers which are Non-Union. I have also followed the posts on the Economy. 
Well if our Country hadn't been brainwashed against Unions by "starting with some people's Hero Ronald Reagan-and his followers-we would not be in the Shape we are in.
Now we don't have Unions "only 12% of the workforce" so we have no power to stop these people, and the Unions we have don't have much power because of America's "brainwashed attitude" towards them.
Healthcare wouldn't be in the trouble it is if the Unions were still strong & fighting the companies for it!! 
Unions always fought against companies going overseas, but were too weak to stop it because of America's "brainwashed attitude" Our Country would be still going strong if the UNIONS were still in place with support of our Fellow Americans.
Now WalMarts and Hyundais, & Chinese junk rule our Country becuase we are so Weak ! Support Your Unions Support your Country !!!


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

custrel said:


> What a load of BULL CRAP. Being in the carpenter's union offers employees ZERO job protection. It's the same on the union side as non-union side: producers stay and get paid, everyone else gets sent home.
> 
> You meet production standards and get paid. Well paid. You don't meet those standards then you're gone. There always is someone else ready and willing (especially now) to take your well paying job.
> 
> ...


The statement is based on my experiences in life having worked in and around union workers. How can you say a statement based on real life observations is ignorance? I would venture to say you are the ignorant one.

Since my last post in this thread I had the chance to talk to several guys about union work. All but one (who refrained to comment) had at some point been in a union. All had some disdain for the union(s) and one went as far as to compare the union(s) to communism stating that "All share the same benefits of pay in their trade regardless of work ethic, skill, or performance taking the desire (to) perform above and beyond out of the equation." :whistling

Another stated that "The union is set up to encourage its workers to stretch out the job as long as possible. They do it to guarantee they are able to generate as much money from each job as possible. Production ain't the goal, milking the clock is." :whistling

These are not my comments but the comments of others who have been involved with unions. Obviously there are quite a few people who feel the union(s) are not beneficial. The fact that the majority of construction workers are not union members goes even farther to attest to this statement. While I don't dispute that there are good tradesman within the union(s) I do believe many of those tradesman do not perform at the levels they are capable of. Why should they when the other guys working around them are getting paid the same regardless of out put?


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## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

Go Union.:thumbup:


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## B.K (Dec 15, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> alot of things they are probably not able to do because
> they have union hole diggers or union maintenance people
> not necessarily they don't want to or cant do it
> 
> ...


I like this guy, your like the ninja in this thread. Coming in with a great comment, than making a quick and clean exit. 

Its very true, i know some very good carpenters that are in the union, but as well i know also know some very good carpenters that aren't union either. 

I read through most of this, what i thought tipped this conversation way over to the other side is this thing about picking up trash. 

I recently been down this road, i was framing up a electrical room, all it is, is an over-sized shed. 

I got called over to help the labour move some stuff around in the main building. I didn't want to go move doors/chalk boards/clean up. Because doing this put me behind on the shed.

I did it, helped out for about 30mins. Then went straight back out to work on the shed. It ended making me work till 5 instead of 4:30. 

My boss never questioned anything just lets us work. 

If he did, and wanted to know what taking so long I'd remind of him of what he made me do with the labour earlier in the day. 

Now this whole thing about, I sign your pay-cheque DO THIS NOW! OR ELSE I'LL FIRE YOUR ASS.

If that is truely your attuitude on site, than **** you bud, i'll walk and find some other place where my skills are actually wanted. 

I'm here to work, and I'm NOT going to be treated like a failure because of the road i decided to go down. If you want me to work, show ME some respect, because as a worker, i WILL be respecting you for hiring me.

-Bill


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

Remember the famous saying "*Together we stand, divided we fall*!"??

Well, all the Unions have their own slogans too ==>> *Together we strike, divided we STARVE*!!"?? :thumbup::jester:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

SelfContract said:


> Remember the famous saying "*Together we stand, divided we fall*!"??
> 
> Well, all the Unions have their own slogans too ==>> *Together we strike, divided we STARVE*!!"?? :thumbup::jester:


How well does it work out for a Union when a business closes the doors and all the Union members lose their jobs?


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

ARI001 said:


> While I don't dispute that there are good tradesman within the union(s) I do believe many of those tradesman do not perform at the levels they are capable of. Why should they when the other guys working around them are getting paid the same regardless of out put?


That is because you have never heard of the dreaded Double Check Friday. :laughing: AKA two check friday. AKA Bonus Check Friday

I forgot the old rhyme check check get your **** and hit the deck.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

ARI001 said:


> Since my last post in this thread I had the chance to talk to several guys about union work. *All but one (who refrained to comment) had at some point been in a union. All had some disdain for the union(s)* and


Of course the guys who are not in the Union anymore are bitter for one reason or another.



ARI001 said:


> .....one went as far as to compare the union(s) to communism stating that "All share the same benefits of pay in their trade regardless of work ethic, skill, or performance taking the desire (to) perform above and beyond out of the equation." :whistling


While this may be true - and those with that attitude are generally let go at first cut - what's YOUR plan as your men age and slow down? Cut their pay? Lay 'em off?




ARI001 said:


> Another stated that "The union is set up to encourage its workers to stretch out the job as long as possible. They do it to guarantee they are able to generate as much money from each job as possible. Production ain't the goal, milking the clock is." :whistling


....if that were true....who would they quit the Union ~ aren't these guys programmed to drag out the job? Why aren't they still working then???




ARI001 said:


> These are not my comments but the comments of others who have been involved with unions. Obviously there are quite a few people who feel the union(s) are not beneficial.


The guys you spoke with are disgruntled for whatever reason/s.
Ask them if they have health benefits, pensions, etc...?
Why would a man be willing to give that up?





ARI001 said:


> The fact that the majority of construction workers are not union members goes even farther to attest to this statement.


I disagree [not with the numbers, but ideology] as detailed above.





ARI001 said:


> While I don't dispute that there are good tradesman within the union(s) I do believe many of those tradesman do not perform at the levels they are capable of. Why should they when the other guys working around them are getting paid the same regardless of out put?


Production and/or lack thereof happens on both sides of the fence.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

bwalley said:


> How well does it work out for a Union when a business closes the doors and all the Union members lose their jobs?


How well does it work out when ANY business shutters their doors?


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

JustaFramer said:


> That is because you have never heard of the dreaded Double Check Friday. :laughing: AKA two check friday. AKA Bonus Check Friday
> 
> I forgot the old rhyme check check get your **** and hit the deck.


You're right, I've never heard of double check Friday. When I was in the union no one got bonuses from the union. If you get bonuses that's great, more power to you! :clap:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Celtic said:


> How well does it work out when ANY business shutters their doors?


When a company goes out of business because they are slow or just can't stay in business for one reason or another that is one thing.

Reynolds Metals in Tampa was a Union plant, they made aluminum drink cans, Ball container bought them, they asked the Union to take some concessions so they could keep the plant open, the Union said no, so Ball container closed the doors, sold the plant and a developer bought it, tore it down and built an apartment complex on the property.

Ball container is non union but people like working there, they are highly paid and Ball container already had a plant in the Tampa are (Temple Terrace) so they did not need to keep the plant open, but in an effort to be profitable, asked the Union to take reasonable concessions, now those union guys lost very high paying jobs that can't be replaced.

PATCO made a real smart move.

Eastern Airlines Pilot Union wouldn't take concessions and they ran them out of business, I knew some pilots who took major pay cuts when they eventually got jobs.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Of course the guys who are not in the Union anymore are bitter for one reason or another.
> 
> 
> While this may be true - and those with that attitude are generally let go at first cut - what's YOUR plan as your men age and slow down? Cut their pay? Lay 'em off?
> ...


*On this I agree completely.*


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

bwalley said:


> When a company goes out of business because they are slow or just can't stay in business for one reason or another that is one thing.
> 
> Reynolds Metals in Tampa was a Union plant, they made aluminum drink cans, Ball container bought them, they asked the Union to take some concessions so they could keep the plant open, the Union said no, so Ball container closed the doors, sold the plant and a developer bought it, tore it down and built an apartment complex on the property.
> 
> ...


Bret,
The market doesn't just dry up for services......because a company goes out of business union or not.

Eastern Airlines went under because of poor management.....other airlines stepped in and filled the gap.....and guess what, they were UNION.....

I use to here contractor complain about the building department not being business friendly enough to the contractors..... See I understand why they do what they do....they are a regulatory agency. A building official once told this whiny contractor once, when you go out of business because you keep losing money on jobs because of code violations.....there are 20 other vultures waiting to wire those houses....LOL. Do the job right and you won't lose money on re-inspections.....


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

mrmike said:


> I have heard so many complaints on here about Mexican workers which are Non-Union. I have also followed the posts on the Economy.
> Well if our Country hadn't been brainwashed against Unions by "starting with some people's Hero Ronald Reagan-and his followers-we would not be in the Shape we are in.
> Now we don't have Unions "only 12% of the workforce" so we have no power to stop these people, and the Unions we have don't have much power because of America's "brainwashed attitude" towards them.
> Healthcare wouldn't be in the trouble it is if the Unions were still strong & fighting the companies for it!!
> ...


 This is the kind of thinking that is pushed by the Unions...and of course they can't see beyond themselves and what's only good for their group...

The following is a modified clip from an almost exact discussion I had with another union member on another forum. I'll just address it to MrMike...

MrMike: 

Do you or your wife shop for the lowest price around for things that you purchase with your hard-earned money? (i.e. at your local supermarket, your local retail shops, etc.) How about when buying a new car? An new home? A new computer? Be honest. I am not just talking about big box stores or Internet...

I will bet that you AND your entire family shop around looking for the lowest price on anything that you consume. It is that VERY *capitalistic* action that is driving the price down that someone is willing to pay for your services and/or products. However, If the supply of something is limited (or controlled), the price goes up. This is the whole premise behind _today's_ Union. Control the labor quantity and set the price. Be a "labor cartel". This is a far cry from gaining better working conditions, minimum wages, equal opportunities, etc. , which were the basis of Unions in the early 1900's. Now we have the EEOC, OSHA, Department of Labor, Etc, etc..

I am willing to bet that you will not pay 20% more for a car from a dealer just so you can feel good about contributing to the mechanic's pension fund, or medical care plan. In fact, you are probably contributing to the very same pressures that are putting unionized and non-unionized folks out on the street collecting unemployment. Newsflash: We are ALL contributing. :whistling Heck, why is there even bidding on construction projects? Just take the first price offered and be done with it.

*The customer demand entitles us to work, and not the other way around. *If the customer doesn't want to pay what you feel you are worth, they won't hire you. They may not hire anyone if the project is too expensive. It's their choice. They have the $$ to spend, and they are taking the risk with their own $$, not you. I would think if you had a choice between $40/hr and $0/hr, you would take $40/hr. I know I would...

In order for any company to survive in a capitalist society (we are still capitalist, right?), they must provide a product or service for a price that a customer is _willing_ to pay (assuming supply and demand are equal). That's the way it works - there really are no exceptions. The company makes a profit, and they get to stay in business and, most importantly - grow - hire more people - and indirectly help raise the standard of living for all those working. 

All the price shopping does is continually drive prices downward. This starts a chain reaction...the distributor/supplier shops around, causing the manufacturer to lower prices - somehow. Typically, the cost of direct labor (union or non-union) in the USA, is the *highest *component of the overall product cost. If the manufacturer can't lower prices domestically (through process automation or material reductions)...guess what? They move assembly/manufacture operations overseas, where the standard of living is much lower to start with (FYI..I have been to factories in China, and most do pay a 'living wage' to their workers- contrary to what you have been fed. This 'living wage' is not the same as a USA living wage, hence the disparity.). This is why China and India have become the 'go-to' places for much of the world's manufacturing labor. Don't worry, China and India will eventually become too expensive (just like Taiwan and Japan have become), and the manufacturers will be forced to find other parts of the globe to set up shop (like Vietnam, South Africa, etc.). It will never end until the standard of living around the world stabilizes at a certain level (which will take generations).

"Some" unionized folks have a sense of entitlement that goes beyond a "fair and reasonable" view of value. The customer determines actual value, not the other way around. As an example, in many cases, "sanitation engineers" (i.e. garbage men) are making more money than a 1st grade teacher. We, as a society, have placed a higher value on getting rid of garbage, than in the molding our children's minds. 

Let's face it, the customer could care less about your pension, IRA, medical care, you, or your family. They are more concerned about their pension, IRA, medical care and their families. They want to be able to afford a roof and food for their family every much as you do. The key is to let the market decide value, and not manipulate it in the interest of one group.

As a skilled Engineer, I am baffled at how peers of mine who help manage Hedge Funds make 1000% more salary than I do. What about pro-athletes? (don't get me started!) I feel I have more specialized knowledge, skill, education, and a more difficult job - thus I should have more perceived value - right? Somehow, the market doesn't agree. Ultimately, my skill and profession are not as highly valued as a lawyer, doctor, pro-athlete, hedge-fund manager, etc. - oh well...:blink: So be it. I am satisfied with what I have been able to accomplish so far. I am happy with what I have been able to do because I fully understand how capitalism works - and that is AMERICAN. 

IMO the Union brotherhood mentality about looking at fellow non-union professionals as people who are 'taking food away' from their families is complete silliness (and borderline socialist). In my view, most of these fellow, non-union professionals are patriotic AMERICAN CITIZENS, and are entitled to anything that they can earn honestly - even if they are willing to work without benefits or higher wages. Why is that your concern if someone wants to work for 20% less than you - AND can do the job as well as you? Does that mean that they are bad people just because they are non-union? NO! They are doing the same thing as you are - putting food on the table for themselves and their families. Why should they *have* to be part of a socialized labor cartel to earn a living? It is their own free will to work for a wage - guaranteed by the US government, and unions should respect that, not punish or ridicule those who choose not to participate in their 'club'. 


Please do not take this as being disrespectful, as I have no intention of being so.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> Bret,
> The market doesn't just dry up for services......because a company goes out of business union or not.
> 
> Eastern Airlines went under because of poor management.....other airlines stepped in and filled the gap.....and guess what, they were UNION.....


Western - You are incorrect.

From Wiki:



> Eastern began losing money as it faced competition from no-frills airlines, such as People Express, which offered drastically reduced air fares. In an attempt to differentiate itself from its bargain competitors, Eastern began a marketing campaign stressing its quality of service and its rank of highly experienced pilots.
> 
> Unable to keep up, Borman agreed to the sale of the airline in 1986 to Texas Air, led by Frank Lorenzo. Lorenzo (who was named as one of Time Magazine's 10 "worst bosses of the century") was known as a ruthless corporate raider and union buster. He had already purchased Continental and lost a bidding war for TWA to Carl Icahn.
> 
> ...


Union actions effectively put Eastern out of business...and hurt the livelihoods of 18K union and non-union workers. What they did was like cutting off your nose to spite your face. By not working with managment to give back some of the bennies to help Eastern stay in business until a new owner was found, ultimately hastened the demise of the airline. Sad but true. Competition is a bit$h...


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Union actions effectively put Eastern out of business...



That is not how I read it.
This is what I read:



> Borman agreed to the sale of the airline in 1986 to Texas Air, led by Frank Lorenzo. Lorenzo (who was named as one of Time Magazine's 10 "worst bosses of the century") was known as a ruthless corporate raider and union buster.
> 
> During Lorenzo's tenure, *Eastern was crippled by severe labor unrest*. Asked to accept deep cuts in pay and benefits, Eastern's mechanics and ramp service employees, represented by the IAM (International Assn. of Machinists and Aerospace Workers), walked out on March 4, 1989.




Lorenzo took the helm in '86 and the workers had enough of his crap by '89.....Lorenzo was after all "one of Time Magazine's 10 "worst bosses of the century".

So why were the "little people" angry?



> Lorenzo instituted cost-cutting measures at Eastern by outsourcing some maintenance work, requiring pilots to fly longer hours, and delaying repairs. In one instance, a pilot refused to fly with only one functioning air-conditioning unit on a cross-country flight.[71] The FAA investigated in the summer of 1987 and found that Eastern had the worst repair record of 11 airlines, and had an average of 55 items unrepaired per day, compared to an average of 29 in the industry.[71] In October 1987, at a Congressional hearing, pilots told of being forced to fly unsafe planes.[57]
> In April 1988, the United States Department of Transportation began an inquiry into the financial fitness and safety of Texas Air and Eastern; the inquiry was announced at the same time as a fine of $823,000 levied by the FAA for safety violations.[72][73] The inquiry deemed Texas Air to have passed its tests and added that labor disputes "could endanger safety at Eastern".[74]
> Amid the negative publicity that followed, Barbara Walters dubbed Lorenzo "probably the most hated man in America" in a 1989 interview, which he denied, blaming the unions for the bad press.
> 
> Lorenzo is frequently described as "anti-union", particularly after the bankruptcy at Continental, which voided the union contracts.[61] At Texas International Air, he demanded wage concessions in 1974, and one union went on strike; when he began hiring replacement workers, other unions at the company joined the strike. After four months, the unions returned to work.[97] Before his takeover of Eastern was completed, his tactics were criticized, with opponents saying his companies' profits were earned "on the backs of broken labor contracts, extremely low wages and harsh work rules."


....above from Wiki as well .



LJSMITH1 said:


> Union actions effectively put Eastern out of business...and hurt the livelihoods of 18K union and non-union workers. What they did was like cutting off your nose to spite your face. By not working with managment to give back some of the bennies to help Eastern stay in business until a new owner was found, ultimately hastened the demise of the airline. Sad but true. Competition is a bit$h...


Sad...but NOT true...


> *Strike*
> 
> After negotiations with the three unions failed to produce any labor agreements, a mandated 30-day cooling off period began on 1 February 1989.[78] If an agreement could not be reached, strikes would begin on 4 March 1989. During this period, Lorenzo met with potential buyers of Eastern, including Carl Icahn, and although an agreement was reached, the details were not able to be worked out and the sale did not happen.[79] Other potential buyers included Jay Pritzker and Peter Ueberroth, but those deals did not work out either.
> On 3 March 1989, President George H. W. Bush issued a statement outlining his decision not to act on a National Mediation Board recommendation to appoint a presidential emergency board to attempt to reach a labor agreement,[80] and the machinists, flight attendants, and pilot unions went on strike at midnight.[81] Thousands of flights were canceled, and thousands of nonunion employees were laid off.[82]


It wasn't just the unions that were hurt....the working man was hurt w/o regard to union affiliation.
It wasn't the working man was was greedy...it was what it has always been ~ corporate greed.

Here is good story:
*PBS - Chasing the Sun - Frank Lorenzo*



> At Continental, Lorenzo was unable - some would say unwilling - to negotiate any further with the airline's labor unions. Lorenzo filed for bankruptcy. The move allowed him to fire union employees and restart the airline with a non-union staff. He cut wages in half and forced new rules requiring longer hours, shorter breaks, and no guaranteed time off. The unions protested, but were unable to have Lorenzo's actions overturned.


How would you like recieve half-wages today for the same work you did yesterday?
It's like a CL mentality....when some jackass wants work done for pennies.


The guy was a tool.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

_

*When guys get older you put them in supervisory positions. Then they are able to teach the younger less experienced guys. Also at this point they are better suited for running jobs for you. Obviously, with more experience and responsibility their pay grade will increase.*

In a perfect world that is true....in reality, the old expensive experienced guys get axed ~ happens everywhere ...from main street to wall street.


*The guys I talked to all had their reasons for leaving. The quotes I stated where the most extreme. Some simply didn't like paying union dues. Others didn't like the union mentality. *

I don't know what you mean by "the Union mentality". 
My understanding of it has always been simply: 8 for 8.


*I did ask if they had benefits, retirement, and how they felt as far as how they where being compensated (I did not ask for their exact pay rates). They all had full benefits including:
Medical, dental, and eye
1 week paid vacation 
1 week paid sick leave (could carry over unused time)
Paid holidays
401K plan (they said the company would match up to 25%)
Christmas Bonus (amount not given)
All said they felt they where paid fairly and the majority said they where paid more than what their union counterparts would receive.* 


That's impressive.
My own personal experience has been just the opposite [when working in a non-union enviroment].
Kudos to the boss man over there :thumbsup:


*Fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion.* *I think if you go talk to people you will find a lot of them harbor a distrust and or dislike for the unions.*

Open discussion w/o hostilities opens minds.
Now why do these people harbor mistrust?
Is the fear based on fact or what they "heard"?
[Don't try and answer that ~ you haven't spoken to everyone :laughing:]

_


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

Celtic said:


> _*When guys get older you put them in supervisory positions. Then they are able to teach the younger less experienced guys. Also at this point they are better suited for running jobs for you. Obviously, with more experience and responsibility their pay grade will increase.*_
> 
> _In a perfect world that is true....in reality, the old expensive experienced guys get axed ~ happens everywhere ...from main street to wall street._
> 
> ...


Celtic, its not his fault. He can't even understand what he has posted.....:laughing:.

Its always the workers fault, even when the boss loots the company and mis-manages everything.... That is the montra from corporate america.

Also, in there view, no management official has ever intentionally picked a fight with the union and then called there PR people once the workers went on strike....and then started crying in front of the camera's about how they could make money if the union would be more reasonable and come back to work.

Its funny how when CEO's are force to take a wage consession that is UN-American, but it's fine if its a loly factory worker. The Governement has EVERY RIGHT to limit the wages of every CEO on wallstreet that took MY TAX money to shore-up the company they ran into the ground. In this case WE THE PEOPLE are now the share holders......


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> In this case WE THE PEOPLE are now the share holders......



If only that were true :furious:


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

Celtic said:


> If only that were true :furious:


I know what you mean.....we will never see one red cent of that money.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

Celtic said:


> That is not how I read it.
> This is what I read:
> 
> Lorenzo took the helm in '86 and the workers had enough of his crap by '89.....Lorenzo was after all "one of Time Magazine's 10 "worst bosses of the century".
> ...


 
While I will not defend Lorenzo, it was not his mess that he created. It was no secret that he did not like the tactics of the unions that he believed put a stranglehold on his company. The airline was already severely hurt by the competition waged by lower cost airlines. Any good management structure will look to trim the most costly part of its operations - direct labor. This is what Lorenzo was trying to do, and of course, it makes him a villain. The strikes put the last few nails in that coffin. 

Personally, If I was offered 1/2 wages and guaranteed a job for the short term to help keep the company afloat, I'd take it. The alternative is zero pay and zero benefits. Would I be happy? No. Not having a job would make me more unhappy.

Look at the auto industry, corporate missed the boat when it came to re-inventing itself. Chrysler was the last to do that from the top down in the early 1980's with Lee Iaccoca. When they were on the verge of bankruptcy then, he came in, laid of thousands of workers, and had to later ask the US Government for loan guarantees. Ultimately, his re-invention bought Chrysler back from the edge to make them very successful in the late 80's and 90's. At one point they had more UAW members working for them than they had pre-Iaccoca. 

What many people don't realize is that the UAW fought the Chrysler management tooth and nail every step of the way. How can an AMERICAN car company, with US-Based manufacturing, and much higher unionized labor costs, compete with the top 4 import car companies who have much lower pay/bennies to direct labor? Do you really think that just by cutting management salary to below competitive rates will help? Of course you do, because thats what the Union wants you to think. In fact, only a small percentage of the vehicle costs are due to white collar/senior management salaries. An overwhelming portion of the costs are related to direct labor and related benefits (pensions, health, 401K, etc.), and of course, materials. These are BILLION DOLLAR companies, not some small, 100 person manufacturing company.

GM tried the re-invention with Saturn in 1990. The company was revolutionary in the American auto industry due to the fact that the UAW negotiated a much different contract with them than those they already had with GM, Ford and Chrysler. The wages were lower as well as the benefits. This, coupled with a design that was desirable, and a price that was affordable, was a rousing success. Unfortunately, this never became an example for the rest of GM. GM was losing market share year after year because they continued to build products that they 'thought' the public wanted. The public really wanted sharp looking and reliable autos, not re-hashed, 10 year old, unreliable designs over and over. So when push came to shove, sales took a nosedive, and they needed to scale back - only to be blocked by the Unions. Did Unions cause the collapse of the big 3, NO, but they certainly did not help.

Now, the UAW is now the primary owner of GM. The UAW has no idea what it has gotten into by mortgaging the pensions of hundreds of thousands of its members to keep a mortally damaged company afloat. But I guess that they are smarter than most people. I would LOVE to see them put their money where their mouth is and 'easily turn around that company'.

From a politico website blog...but very interesting


> _The union’s ownership of GM does not seem to be a problem. It seems a virtue. Let the UAW, as new owner of GM, pay the price for the overgrown work rules of its locals. Let the UAW demand above-market raises from itself. Let the UAW try to raise money from new lenders after the previous round of lenders has been royally screwed (thanks, in part, to the UAW). And then let the UAW try to sell the cars that result._


BTW...I have no respect for CEO's and management who still command an insane compensation package while running a company into the ground. That is the fault of the board of directors, and not the Unions. However, if the company makes a profit, those same directors should keep salary and bonuses in line within reasonable limits. What determines those reasonable limits is the very same market that determines our salary. Go figure....:blink:

One last interesting find:



> *The UAW As Big Business*
> 
> John Carney May. 8, 2009
> 
> ...


Kind of excessive too, huh? Seems greed goes both ways at the top...


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> While I will not defend Lorenzo, it was not his mess that he created.


Can someone translate that?
A) I won't defend - but he didn't do it
B) I didn't spill the milk that I spilled

WTF?????




LJSMITH1 said:


> Personally, If I was offered 1/2 wages and guaranteed a job for the short term to help keep the company afloat, I'd take it. The alternative is zero pay and zero benefits. Would I be happy? No. Not having a job would make me more unhappy.


...and when your mortgage is due...then what?
Offer the lender 1/2 because now your only making 1/2 :blink:

I don't believe you would accept a reduction
Not that I am calling you a liar, I just don't believe you.
It looks good on a forum....but when you have bills mounting ~ they ain't gonna get any smaller by making less...if you're going to go broke ~ why wait?
Call the bluff, let the chips fall where they may.
Too risky for you?




LJSMITH1 said:


> Do you really think that just by cutting management salary to below competitive rates will help? *Of course you do, because thats what the Union wants you to think.*


Ummmm....not even close.




LJSMITH1 said:


> In fact, only a small percentage of the vehicle costs are due to white collar/senior management salaries. An overwhelming portion of the costs are related to direct labor and related benefits (pensions, health, 401K, etc.), and of course, materials.


I think you may have your facts and figures skewed.
How much does it really cost a automobile manufacturer to make a car? Well, good luck figuring that one out, because nobody really knows. Not even the automaker's bean counters know for sure, and it is doubtful the CEO does either. Even if that information were known, the companies that make automobiles have no reason to share it.



LJSMITH1 said:


> These are BILLION DOLLAR companies, not some small, 100 person manufacturing company.


You mean they are not mom & pop operations  



LJSMITH1 said:


> GM was losing market share year after year because they continued to build products that they 'thought' the public wanted. The public really wanted sharp looking and reliable autos, not re-hashed, 10 year old, unreliable designs over and over. So when push came to shove, sales took a nosedive, and they needed to scale back - only to be blocked by the Unions. Did Unions cause the collapse of the big 3, NO, but they certainly did not help.


So because the suits were clueless, the working man gets to suffer?
That makes perfect sense to me 




LJSMITH1 said:


> Now, the UAW is now the primary owner of GM. The UAW has no idea what it has gotten into by mortgaging the pensions of hundreds of thousands of its members to keep a mortally damaged company afloat. But I guess that they are smarter than most people. I would LOVE to see them put their money where their mouth is and 'easily turn around that company'.


I would like to see them turn the auto industry around.....first step is making a product people actually want.
Personally, the Jeep line up looks dated [I've been looking for a new car]



LJSMITH1 said:


> From a politico website blog...but very interesting


Written by whom?
You?
King Kong?



LJSMITH1 said:


> One last interesting find:
> *The UAW As Big Business - Golf course*
> 
> 
> Kind of excessive too, huh? Seems greed goes both ways at the top...


I can see it as diversifying.
If need be, the Unions can very well sell off the assets.




LJSMITH1 said:


> BTW...I have no respect for CEO's and management who still command an insane compensation package while running a company into the ground. That is the fault of the board of directors, and not the Unions. However, if the company makes a profit, those same directors should keep salary and bonuses in line within reasonable limits. *What determines those reasonable limits is the very same market that determines our salary. *Go figure....:blink:


I had no idea shareholders had a voice in my salary ~ thanks for bringing that to my attention...I think :001_huh: :confused1:


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

The business community has always been more organized than labor. They have always spent money to write the laws in favor of themselves. Most of the lobbiest's in Washington DC, are Corporate Lobbiest's. Union's were not created for the benefit of the business community. The fact they spent money to promote snake oil salesmen, OOPPS I mean radio talk show hosts, and underwrite the entire anti-union moment should be a suprise to know one. Business always defends systems that benefit business......

The thing I can't understand, is why working people don't think the same way. Anyone who works for a living and doesn't support unions in my view doesn't deserve to be paid a decent wage or have a retirement. If a worker is to dumb to defend a system that benefits him, then he is stupid and should be used for cannon foughter......


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## W-Tinc (Feb 15, 2008)

westernexplorer said:


> To the OP, bottom line is if your in the type of business that doesn't require a whole lot of skills to perform than you can pay low and have a plantation mentallity and hire and fire anyone for any reason.
> 
> However, if you do highly techical work that requires special skills, you have to tolerate a certain amount of pre-madonna behavior from your employee's and learn to tolerate it, as long as they make you money.....since you can't replace them with an illegal or some other meatball.


 
Is this really what most union workers think? I grew up in Lansing, Mi and believe me there are alot of union guys who don't have alot of skills(Although I have talked to alot of them who have the same attitude as the quote above). I really can't believe its that much different in the construction industry.

Not anti-union though..seems like everyone deserves to make as good a living as possible so more power to them. I never worked a union job, went from sales to working for myself. But if I was going to work for someone in the trades I think being in a union would be great.

Is it even a realistic debate these days? Is there a note worthy percentage of people in union jobs...are they hiring more, or losing ground?

Here is an excerpt from my local news today: 

"BIRMINGHAM, Ala. – The sheriff in Alabama's most populous county may call for the National Guard to help maintain order, a spokesman said Tuesday, as a judge cleared the way for cuts in the sheriff's budget and lawmakers reached a compromise they hope will end the budget crisis."

Debating calling out the national guard because we can't afford a police dept., pretty shameful. Granted its an isolated problem, hopefully it will stay that way. Saw unemployment in Michigan is at 15% now, over 10% here in Alabama.

Pretty far from the OP but my points are it doesn't seem like a very good time to do anything that will increase your cost of doing business (And if you have a good job maybe you should try to have a little class).


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

W-Tinc said:


> Is this really what most union workers think? I grew up in Lansing, Mi and believe me there are alot of union guys who don't have alot of skills(Although I have talked to alot of them who have the same attitude as the quote above). I really can't believe its that much different in the construction industry.
> 
> Not anti-union though..seems like everyone deserves to make as good a living as possible so more power to them. I never worked a union job, went from sales to working for myself. But if I was going to work for someone in the trades I think being in a union would be great.
> 
> ...


What exactly do you do...?


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

Western - Are you saying that Eastern was in fine shape prior to 1986? If so, I think you need to do more research. They lost millions from 1984-1986 due to low cost carriers coming online and taking market share. Eastern was too slow and expensive to even begin to compete.

You are missing the difference between "market" and "shareholders". The "Market" is the customer. It ultimately decides what our salary will be. I said nothing about shareholders, as I would probably group the most noisy bunch of them in the same group of directors that determine CEO compensation. They elect the directors.

If the suits are running the company (which they do), and they are clueless (which they probably were), then does that mean the working man suffers? Uh..Yes it does, since it's their poor decision making that results in the failure to adjust to market conditions and maintain profitability. In your world, you don't need "suits" I guess...You should start your own company of working men and compete. If the suits are really the problem, you should be an amazing success.

As for 1/2 salary...I would take it if my job was on the line. If I had to get a second or third job to pay my mortgage, I would. I would also be looking for a better paying FT job at the same time. I would not limit myself to what the union approves of me doing. I would have to do what I have to do to make ends meet. I have been laid off 2x in my career and I know how to get back on the horse if I have to. I also have very marketable hands-on skills that could always help me in a pinch. My grandfather and his father had it much worse in the Depression because there was no work. Somehow, they made it through it. There is work available now, but you need to be able to adapt and educate yourself to take advantage of the opportunities. 

The workforce today needs to be flexible and more educated in order to compete globally. I constantly push employee training as much as I push safety awareness. They are critical to a company's survival and growth. For those employees that don't want to take off the blinders and learn something new, I try to spend extra time with them to help them see the light.

And lastly, it seems very hypocritical for Union leaders to be enjoying the very same "excesses" that they chastise 'overcompensated' CEO's for. For you to say that owning a golf course is a 'diversified investment' is ok, seems a bit of a stretch. I am sure that if you were to see the salaries of some of the Union leaders at the top, you might pause and think that they might also be considered as 'overpaid executives'.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> I am sure that if you were to see the salaries of some of the Union leaders at the top, you might pause and think that they might also be considered as 'overpaid executives'.


I do know what they make and it's a heap less then the Wallstreet Crowd. 

BTW, American workers will never be able to compete with the 3rd world were they work for .50 cent an hour and no bathroom breaks. What Corporate America has done to this country is a travisty. The handful of "free traders" want to return America to the pre revolutionary time. They want to return to a fuedal system of a few noblemen who own all of the land and wealth and the loly pesants begging for scraps.

I maybe a businessman, but I'm not short sited enough to not understand that union created the middle class and are what make America a stable democracy. This why the 3rd world is in such bad shape, no middle class. Just the haves and have not's. I defend the rights of union's, even if they are not perfect, because I want my children to grow up in a democracy, not a Banana Republic.....


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> I do know what they make and it's a heap less then the Wallstreet Crowd.
> 
> BTW, American workers will never be able to compete with the 3rd world were they work for .50 cent an hour and no bathroom breaks. What Corporate America has done to this country is a travisty. The handful of "free traders" want to return America to the pre revolutionary time. They want to return to a fuedal system of a few noblemen who own all of the land and wealth and the loly pesants begging for scraps.
> 
> I maybe a businessman, but I'm not short sited enough to not understand that union created the middle class and are what make America a stable democracy. This why the 3rd world is in such bad shape, no middle class. Just the haves and have not's. I defend the rights of union's, even if they are not perfect, because I want my children to grow up in a democracy, not a Banana Republic.....


 
It's not "US vs Them" anymore. It's "US vs everyone else". While I will admit that there are some corporations that have taken the high road away from American workers, how can a company compete against others that can import the same product cheaper and well made? I also explained how the standard of living that you or I feel is 'right' is not the same as in India or China. You cannot compare the "$.50/hr and no bathroom breaks" to our work environment, or even European standards. It's all relative, and I have seen it first hand. 

My previous post pointed out the very action of looking for the *lower price* on products by you and me has driven many middle class, blue collar, manufacturing jobs offshore. While you might be content to blame the corporate greed and politics, the real reason is looking at you in the mirror every morning. Don't shop at Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Staples, Best Buy, Amazon, Costco, Lowes, etc, Etc.. These companies are among the largest impact to driving manufacturers to continue lowering costs to compete with domestic pricing pressure.

If you ask me, I think Congress is more to blame for allowing this offshoring to happen, by not leveling the playing field with our imports. Why not tariffs on product that competes directly with domestic counterparts to lessen the price differential? This way, no domestic competition would look at offshoring to be able to stay in business (don't forget you have to make a profit to stay in business). 

You are blaming the wrong people and the wrong process for the plight of the middle class - and the companies that once employed them. The Union might have had a hand in creating the middle class in America, but we live on a planet with a lot of different cultures and countries. We can no longer rest on our laurels as a nation and expect others to do our bidding. We live in a much different world from the 1920's or even 1970's. We must change our focus and tactics to remain a key player in the world political machine. We need to integrate, not separate in order to survive.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> It's not "US vs Them" anymore. It's "US vs everyone else". While I will admit that there are some corporations that have taken the high road away from American workers, how can a company compete against others that can import the same product cheaper and well made? I also explained how the standard of living that you or I feel is 'right' is not the same as in India or China. You cannot compare the "$.50/hr and no bathroom breaks" to our work environment, or even European standards. It's all relative, and I have seen it first hand.
> 
> My previous post pointed out the very action of looking for the *lower price* on products by you and me has driven many middle class, blue collar, manufacturing jobs offshore. While you might be content to blame the corporate greed and politics, the real reason is looking at you in the mirror every morning. Don't shop at Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Staples, Best Buy, Amazon, Costco, Lowes, etc, Etc.. These companies are among the largest impact to driving manufacturers to continue lowering costs to compete with domestic pricing pressure.
> 
> ...


 
I agree, Congress is to blame, we had tariff's until a handful of corporate shills and ton of campaign cash paid-off the REPUBLA-CRATS to knock down our tariff system and replace it with "FREE TRADE" and forced the America worker to compete with the 3rd world. You see this policy didn't affect the, Blue Bloods of this Country, like the Rockefeller's or the Vanderbilt's, so they didn't care less.

I also agree, that Wal-Mart and other big box retailers have offshored jobs and we have helped them by shopping at these stores. We the people in the end are responsable for this broken system. We bought into the whole supply side economic's and free trade policies that have put us in this situation. This colapse last year in Sept. 2008 was the result of 30 plus years of a failed economic theory, that same theory that failed 80 years earlier because of the Gilded Age, another era of an America in a "ME" society. American's have always done better in a "WE" society. During our periods of "WE" the country grows for everyone, not just the rich.

I'll be honest, I bought into the very system that has put this country on our knee's begging China for money, but not anymore. I have come to see what this failed economic theory has done to my country and I will never support it again.

Does it make you feel good, knowing we have to beg China for money to keep this house of cards from falling down...? I grew up in a strong America where we control the industrial base of the ENTIRE PLANET. We didn't get to where we are now by accident, we got here by failed leadership.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

One thing to remember about the Unions is, they helped put Obama in office.

If you like Obama, thank a Union member.:thumbsup:


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Western,
I get the impression you think you and all other union workers are entitled to something. This is a capitalistic society like it or not. Your views are bordering on socialism. Bailly pointed out something kind of interesting in the Union helping to put Obama in office. Now Obama wants to deprivatize the health care system within the next 10 years (he is on tape saying this) and have a completely socialized government run healthcare system. No wonder your views are what they are, you've been being brainwashed for years.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

bwalley said:


> One thing to remember about the Unions is, they helped put Obama in office.
> 
> If you like Obama, thank a Union member.:thumbsup:


What's your point.... Everyone helps politicians get elected....regardless of party.

Union's have nothing to do with whether you make it or not. The cost of labor is not the problem. That is what poor manager's or businessman use as an excuse for failing to take responibility for failing to market there business properly. Just the way that the big 3 have used there PR campaign to blame the union's for there problems
. Its not the fact that Engineering, Design and Managament failed to develope cars that the AMERICAN people would actually buy or the fact that those companies failed to MARKET those products in an effective way. Its easy for the brain dead to buy that it must some how be the loly union guy on the factory floor to blame.

Who cares if you like my views or not, I certainly don't. Bottom line is, I make money and I do it because of good business practices. If you spent more time looking at the big picture and marketing your business, you could make more money, instead of brow beating your employee's and making it off of driving down there wages and benefits.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Western,
> I get the impression you think you and all other union workers are entitled to something. This is a capitalistic society like it or not. Your views are bordering on socialism. Bailly pointed out something kind of interesting in the Union helping to put Obama in office. Now Obama wants to deprivatize the health care system within the next 10 years (he is on tape saying this) and have a completely socialized government run healthcare system. No wonder your views are what they are, you've been being brainwashed for years.


ARI001,

Your views border on FASCISM. I don't care what the Obama Administration does on healthcare, private or public. I will make money under either system, regardless of the rules. You seem to spend a lot of your time whinning about the rules of business, instead of just playing the game. The rules of the game change all the time, just like in sports. However, it's your proformance on the field that wins the game, not the rules. Consentrate on running your business by playing the maketing game and you will win. Labor is just a cost of doing business, not the way you do business.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> I agree, Congress is to blame, we had tariff's until a handful of corporate shills and ton of campaign cash paid-off the REPUBLA-CRATS to knock down our tariff system and replace it with "FREE TRADE" and forced the America worker to compete with the 3rd world. You see this policy didn't affect the, Blue Bloods of this Country, like the Rockefeller's or the Vanderbilt's, so they didn't care less.


Who cares about the Rockefeller's or Vanderbilt's? I don't. I can tell you that there have been more failed companies due to global competition than you even realize - and not just US companies. We are in a global society and whether you like it or not, we are competing on a much larger stage now. This requires different tactics and thought processes.



westernexplorer said:


> I also agree, that Wal-Mart and other big box retailers have offshored jobs and we have helped them by shopping at these stores. We the people in the end are responsable for this broken system. We bought into the whole supply side economics and free trade policies that have put us in this situation. This collapse last year in Sept. 2008 was the result of 30 plus years of a failed economic theory, that same theory that failed 80 years earlier because of the Gilded Age, another era of an America in a "ME" society. American's have always done better in a "WE" society. During our periods of "WE" the country grows for everyone, not just the rich.


This has nothing to do with supply-side economics. Rather it is more directly caused by downward price pressure by consumers. There will ALWAYS be someone out there willing to undercut you for the same business - just to get the business. As for the financial collapse, it was a multitude of problems- not just one. The primary issue was the Sub-Prime market, fueled by over-leveraging, aggravated by speculators and out of control oil prices. Many people were living beyond their means and it all came to a head at once. Insofar as your comment about "WE" and "ME", that sounds very socialist to me. Look up Marxism and tell me what it says...



westernexplorer said:


> I'll be honest, I bought into the very system that has put this country on our knee's begging China for money, but not anymore. I have come to see what this failed economic theory has done to my country and I will never support it again.
> 
> Does it make you feel good, knowing we have to beg China for money to keep this house of cards from falling down...? I grew up in a strong America where we control the industrial base of the ENTIRE PLANET. We didn't get to where we are now by accident, we got here by failed leadership.


FYI, you seem to be predominately focused on China, yet there are dozens of other countries that we are beholden to. Japan, India, Europe, Canada, etc. all have a huge financial stake in the USA. In your view, the USA should not allow a 3rd world country to emerge from the stone age to become a global participant. Who cares if its China, Vietnam, South Africa, Iraq, etc.Etc.. Right? You think they should all be under our foot indefinitely, right? Who are "WE" to do that? You still can be patriotic in a global society. You continue to live in the past, and the world is changing every minute. "WE" as a country, need to learn how to effectively compete in a global economy, while maintaining the fabric of who we are as a country - period. I believe we can do that, but it will take a re-invention of our society to become strong enough to be a leader in an environment with other strong players. It was easier in the past because the other countries were so weak (comparatively). Not so anymore.

You also seem to be highly offended by the extremely wealthy. Do you think Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or Michael Bloomberg are in the same category as the Rockefeller's or Vanderbilt's? These people employ hundreds of thousands of people in the US and worldwide. They help raise the standard of living for many more people. They definitely contribute billions of dollars to our tax rolls. Are they all bad people?:whistling


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> ARI001,
> 
> Your views border on FASCISM. I don't care what the Obama Administration does on healthcare, private or public. I will make money under either system, regardless of the rules. You seem to spend a lot of your time whinning about the rules of business, instead of just playing the game. The rules of the game change all the time, just like in sports. However, it's your proformance on the field that wins the game, not the rules. Consentrate on running your business by playing the maketing game and you will win. *Labor is just a cost of doing business, not the way you do business.*


 
That's it! You said it!:clap: So using your comment, if you are in business, and need to lower your cost to be competitive, and LABOR is the biggest cost in your product, then you either lower the wage/benefits that you offer your existing employees, reduce headcount, or outsource the whole thing offshore to cheaper labor markets. Wow, it really is simple!

Oh, and your other comment about performance winning a game vs the rules...I guess taking HGH or other performance enhancing drugs is OK as long as you win the game. Nevermind about breaking the rules.:no: Violating rules and regulations like tax codes, EEOC, DEP, OSHA is ok, as long as you make money...:w00t: Good Lord!:laughing:


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

Here is some food for thought....illegal immegrants have been fueling our economy...thats right I said it, they do us good. They do jobs that honestly would otherwise be hard to impossable to find labor for. It seems to me construction seemed to be fueling that last boom that just crashed. With lower labor costs more people could afford to build and did so. People went to work, earned money and threw it at building things, thus employing many people other people in turn, who then earned money to spend themselves. If we didn't have these low labor rates for these basic jobs everything would go up in the price....It is a common fact it is hard to find good labor these days from the younger crowd.....the immegrants fill this void... Think of how many of these people work on the very farms that produce the food you eat....now think about what would happen if we got rid of them all, and paid the avg american to do it. Everyone can cry about them stealing jobs from americans but it comes down to this....americans wouldn't want the jobs at the rates they need to be done at anyway...its just a bunch of winers looking to make excuses at their failed lives b/c they are too lazy to push themselfs to earn the right to earn more money.

They don't pay taxes you say? Their kids go to school for free? Free Medical Care? Yes and no. They pay taxes, sales tax for one just like you and I. They pay rent where they live, that rent goes to a landlord who then pays property tax on that...schooling is funded by property tax. No, they don't pay income tax, but what happens at then end of the year for you and I? We get out income tax back...don't we? Yes, I will agree they do get free medical care and that needs to be reformed... They don't pay into S.S. or welfare, but at the same time, they don't get access to it. 

I am going to get shot for saying this, but I believe as a county we need these people...they are part of the equation that keeps our economy going...we have no manufacturing base anymore, we gave that away to other countries, the only thing the US can build and build well is destructive things and domestic construction....thus why the US needs wars, during wars we can sell our goods and make money....

To me, unions are partly at fault for the US loosing its manufacturing base, I can understand there are some dirty companies out there, and why the unions where formed, but I believe it went too far.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

:no:


TBFGhost said:


> Here is some food for thought....illegal immegrants have been fueling our economy...thats right I said it, they do us good. They do jobs that honestly would otherwise be hard to impossable to find labor for. It seems to me construction seemed to be fueling that last boom that just crashed. With lower labor costs more people could afford to build and did so. People went to work, earned money and threw it at building things, thus employing many people other people in turn, who then earned money to spend themselves. If we didn't have these low labor rates for these basic jobs everything would go up in the price....It is a common fact it is hard to find good labor these days from the younger crowd.....the immigrants fill this void... Think of how many of these people work on the very farms that produce the food you eat....now think about what would happen if we got rid of them all, and paid the avg american to do it. Everyone can cry about them stealing jobs from americans but it comes down to this....americans wouldn't want the jobs at the rates they need to be done at anyway...its just a bunch of winers looking to make excuses at their failed lives b/c they are too lazy to push themselfs to earn the right to earn more money.


If you're gonna say it, just say it like Dubya [?] did:
They are doing the jobs Americans won't.

Seriously though....the big heads at the fast foods joints are not in favor raising minimum wage....the labor costs are cutting too deep into their profits.
http://www.qsrmagazine.com/articles/features/116/minimum_wage-1.phtml
[First link I found...I have no idea what political party they are affiliated with]

So next time you pull into Mickey D's...remember to say "Por Favor Amigo"....Diego will be wearing that paper hat pretty soon and what about little Johnny???
Little Johnny will getting a handout from Dad ~ if Dad has a job.


Seriously...seriously though....


TBFGhost said:


> They don't pay taxes you say? Their kids go to school for free? Free Medical Care? Yes and no. They pay taxes, sales tax for one just like you and I. They pay rent where they live, *that rent goes to a landlord* who then pays property tax on that...schooling is funded by property tax. No, they don't pay income tax, but *what happens at then end of the year for you and I? We get out income tax back...don't we?* Yes, I will agree they do get free medical care and that needs to be reformed... They don't pay into S.S. or welfare, but at the same time, they don't get access to it.


HUH???
The rent???
Are you serious?
In NJ we have landlords who make a family business out of renting out ILLEGAL units to people.
A good portion of these illegal units are occupied by illegals.
The illegals will load that unit up with as many people as there is room for beds.
Now since the unit is illegal...there is NO TAX paid...no property tax on the improvement and certainly no income tax of the rent roll.
The tax revenues generated by the minuscule purchases of daily items is not going to offset the amount that is paid out to support the schooling, medical, etc etc etc.


We get our taxes back?
It might work out that way [depending on who your CPA is] ~ but that is not the way it was designed to work. I am of the opinion that the IRS was not created for the sake of creating jobs...I might be wrong, but I'm thinking I am not.



TBFGhost said:


> I am going to get shot for saying this, but I believe as a county we need these people...they are part of the equation that keeps our economy going...we have no manufacturing base anymore, we gave that away to other countries, the only thing the US can build and build well is destructive things and domestic construction....thus why the US needs wars, during wars we can sell our goods and make money....


It IS possible to get a work visa....but that involves so much more effort than just walking across the border.
Many of the migrant farm workers are here legally during the crop season...they come, do the job, and go back.
I have no problem with that.





TBFGhost said:


> To me, unions are partly at fault for the US loosing its manufacturing base, I can understand there are some dirty companies out there, and why the unions where formed, but I believe it went too far.


Perhaps.

However, have conditions [including more than just wages] improved or diminished over the past 5 - 10 years for the average working stiff?

Will they continue to improve or rapidly spiral downwards in this "global economy"?

IMHO, the concept of the "global economy" is not working.
The idea was that the 3rd world and not-yet-industrialized countrys would benefit from the industrialized nations consumer demands of cheaper products. The cost of the products has not diminished in a capacity that is recognizable. The impoverished countrys have not been elevated. 

So, where did the money go?


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

Celtic said:


> :no:
> IMHO, the concept of the "global economy" is not working.
> The idea was that the 3rd world and not-yet-industrialized countrys would benefit from the industrialized nations consumer demands of cheaper products. The cost of the products has not diminished in a capacity that is recognizable. The impoverished countrys have not been elevated.
> 
> So, where did the money go?


 
I was just in Shanghai and Ningbo China last year. A few years prior, I was in Guangzhou and Kwangchou. You would not believe how fast these cities have grown in a very short amount of time. In less than 20 years, they have gone from desolate farmland and shanty towns, to cities of glass and steel that look like downtown Dallas. There are paved roads, traffic lights, manicured landscaping, street sweeping, storefront business with global retailers like Apple, Dell, Nokia, Best Buy, UPS, Starbucks, etc. There are few people begging on the streets (no different than NYC). They have subways, buses, police & fire departments. city governments, etc. What was pheasant based, agricultural economy, is being transformed into a vibrant modern economy with a mix of service and manufacturing. I have seen it with my own eyes and talked with Chinese residents. In many areas, they already have a similar standard of living as our middle class does. This is due to higher salaries because of higher skill jobs being created.

They do have a ways to go as China is a big country. Many areas are still '3rd world', but it's only a matter of time where the urban sprawl spills out into the countryside and gets everyone.

The industrialization and capitalization of China, India and other former 3rd world countries is absolutely working. Not that long ago, after WWII, Japan was knocked back a few decades in their industrial capabilities. They used to be the 'cheap' place to go...not anymore. The Japanese standard of living is on par with the US. Taiwan is following closely behind. In fact, many Japanese and Taiwanese manufacturers have moved their operations to mainland China. Why? Because its cheaper - for now.

Go visit, and you will see firsthand what I have witnessed. It's amazing.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

TBFGhost said:


> Here is some food for thought....illegal immegrants have been fueling our economy...thats right I said it, they do us good. They do jobs that honestly would otherwise be hard to impossable to find labor for. It seems to me construction seemed to be fueling that last boom that just crashed. With lower labor costs more people could afford to build and did so. People went to work, earned money and threw it at building things, thus employing many people other people in turn, who then earned money to spend themselves. If we didn't have these low labor rates for these basic jobs everything would go up in the price....It is a common fact it is hard to find good labor these days from the younger crowd.....the immegrants fill this void... Think of how many of these people work on the very farms that produce the food you eat....now think about what would happen if we got rid of them all, and paid the avg american to do it. Everyone can cry about them stealing jobs from americans but it comes down to this....americans wouldn't want the jobs at the rates they need to be done at anyway...its just a bunch of winers looking to make excuses at their failed lives b/c they are too lazy to push themselfs to earn the right to earn more money.
> 
> They don't pay taxes you say? Their kids go to school for free? Free Medical Care? Yes and no. They pay taxes, sales tax for one just like you and I. They pay rent where they live, that rent goes to a landlord who then pays property tax on that...schooling is funded by property tax. No, they don't pay income tax, but what happens at then end of the year for you and I? We get out income tax back...don't we? Yes, I will agree they do get free medical care and that needs to be reformed... They don't pay into S.S. or welfare, but at the same time, they don't get access to it.
> 
> ...


The illegal aliens cost us more in welfare, school, social programs and other costs than they provide in "cheap" labor, not to mention the crimes they commit.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> That's it! You said it!:clap: So using your comment, if you are in business, and need to lower your cost to be competitive, and LABOR is the biggest cost in your product, then you either lower the wage/benefits that you offer your existing employees, reduce headcount, or outsource the whole thing offshore to cheaper labor markets. Wow, it really is simple!
> 
> Oh, and your other comment about performance winning a game vs the rules...I guess taking HGH or other performance enhancing drugs is OK as long as you win the game. Nevermind about breaking the rules.:no: Violating rules and regulations like tax codes, EEOC, DEP, OSHA is ok, as long as you make money...:w00t: Good Lord!:laughing:


Look, just because your company is in bed with the COMMUNIST Chinese, so you can make a fast buck on cheap labor, don't make me out to be a bad guy, for not liking it. So, be careful about who you call a socialist. I could care less what they say in Bejing, behind the scene's they are RED COMMUNIST, and I hope they nationalize every factory in that country and teach these GREEDY idiots a lesson.

Labor is a cost of doing business, but it's not the ONLY cost. By your responses I can see you have not read ALL of my posts. I support the American Workers and there rights, OSHA, UNION right's ect. The reason I do, is because I got sick and tired of working for corporate shills. Who only support US law when it benefits your company and do everything you can to GET AROUND THE LAW, when it benefits the worker.

As far as the rules go, UNIONS ARE THE LAW and people like you don't like it and whine about them all the time. Market your business in the proper way and the labor costs become very small in the grand old picture. You don't know how to run a business, so you compensate by driving down the wages of your employee's to make-up for your lack of business skills.

During the 1950's and 1960's we had the highest unionization rate of our nations history and the wealthy paid the highest tax rates they have ever paid in history of this republic and we made money and we had the highest standard of living ever. Now we have a high standard of living based on CREDIT and DEBT, not based on SAVINGS and EARNING POWER.


I believe in capitalism, just not un-regulated capitalism. Your supply side economic capitalism doesn't work, it never has worked for the long term benefit of any nation. And, yes I do think Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and the whole tech crowd are just as bad as the Rockefeller's. Because they care about themselves more than the future of America. Just because Bill Gates donates some money to build a homeless shelter or a community center to re-train workers who have lost there jobs, because of trade policies that he supports, doesn't make him a NICE guy.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

Look, the OP only asked what everyone thought about becoming a union contractor.

You have a different view then me. So, you make money your way and I will continue to make money my way.......clearly people can make money both ways.....so have at it.....:thumbup:

Oh and BTW, I have seen the discovery channel and don't need to go to China, Vietnam or the Middle East to see where my US dollars are going and which *two bit tin dictator* is benefiting from it.


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## nitrox2595 (Dec 23, 2006)

paid


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

Celtic said:


> :no:
> 
> 
> If you're gonna say it, just say it like Dubya [?] did:
> ...


 

Good points and thanks for not just bashing my head off. You are correct about the illegal units, but then again, how many times do we americans put on illegal additions and what not...everything we don't pull a permit we are doing the same thing. But many of these guys rent legally.

And I firmly believe they will do what we won't, so lets get them work visas and move on....


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

bwalley said:


> The illegal aliens cost us more in welfare, school, social programs and other costs than they provide in "cheap" labor, not to mention the crimes they commit.


 
prove me wrong, that is all I ask, you could be 100% correct but I don't see data to back this up.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_economic_costs.html


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> I was just in Shanghai and Ningbo China last year. A few years prior, I was in Guangzhou and Kwangchou.
> 
> .....
> 
> Go visit, and you will see firsthand what I have witnessed. It's amazing.


Not quite as exciting...but I'll ask my brother.
He's been to China a couple of times.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

westernexplorer said:


> During the 1950's and 1960's we had the highest unionization rate of our nations history and the wealthy paid the highest tax rates they have ever paid in history of this republic and we made money and we had the highest standard of living ever. Now we have a high standard of living based on CREDIT and DEBT, not based on SAVINGS and EARNING POWER.


Wage disparity ....it was a double digit percentage in the 40's ...today it's triple digit percentage 






westernexplorer said:


> Just because Bill Gates donates some money to build a homeless shelter or a community center to re-train workers who have lost there jobs, because of trade policies that he supports, doesn't make him a NICE guy.


Have you read what Gates wanted in regards to HB1 [I think i got the term correct] visas?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

TBFGhost said:


> Good points and thanks for not just bashing my head off. You are correct about the illegal units, but then again, how many times do we americans put on illegal additions and what not...everything we don't pull a permit we are doing the same thing. But many of these guys rent legally.
> 
> And I firmly believe they will do what we won't, so lets get them work visas and move on....


I agree on all accounts :thumbsup:

A few years back, a buddy of mine got "ratted out" for having an illegal unit...the kicker: The tenant dimed herself out!
I LMAO...but he got what he "deserved".

I've pulled more permits for my own SFH than I care to count ~ just picked up a wad today.
Do I "have to"?
No....I could "get away with it".....but why?
It's something I advocate her on CT, so why wouldn't I "live it" also?
[BTW, it took only 65 minutes, with 30 minutes on the meter and NO TICKET ...LOL]


If the illegals won't get the visa's....fine the employers ~ heavily.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Wage disparity ....it was a double digit percentage in the 40's ...today it's triple digit percentage
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know all to well about those Anti-American's. The High Tech CEO's go before Congress and lobby for an increase every year for HB1 Visa's to allow MORE and MORE Indian's, Chiniese and Pakastanies into the US to write software for Microsoft and Apple. My good freind who lives in Seattle, use to make 80K a year for Microsoft and now he is out of work, because these HB1 Visa guys will work for 1/2 the wage.......The high tech CEO's tell Congress there is a shortage of high tech workers and increases in the HB1 Visa program are needed. Congress holds fake hearings and bring in people from the high tech industry (same CEO's) to testify and they tell Congress how lazy and unqualified American's are and how they simply would hire American's if they could find some to do the jobs. Congress nods its head and winks as they collect there campaign contribution. Its called the "Potomac Two Step". Congress swallows the line hook line and sinker from the CEO's and they don't investigate to really see if the CEO's are lying, because that would cause a severe DECLINE in the amount of contributions they would get from the same CEO's.......
And that my friend, is how you displace the American Worker's and make the American People even feel good about it.......:w00t:

The sad thing is, these practices along with outsourcing and offshoring of good jobs is killing our country and the small business community. These are the people who use to hire contractors and build homes. The government policies of free trade and VooDoo economics are destroying our customer base in this country. But the LARGE corporation's have been making a killing in the short run doing it......But it looks like it time to pay the piper.... It takes a long time to shift and wittle away the wealth of the richest nation on earth, it appears they may have finally got it done. Welcome to a declining way of life and a declining standard of living.....3rd world living in America, not far off.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

LJSMITH1 said:


> This is the kind of thinking that is pushed by the Unions...and of course they can't see beyond themselves and what's only good for their group...
> 
> The following is a modified clip from an almost exact discussion I had with another union member on another forum. I'll just address it to MrMike...
> 
> ...


First, Presently, I do not belong to a UNION but I used to, & union people do see beyond themselves and yes tried to protect their jobs, but the Corporations Won that battle & went overseas or closed up shop. This weakened our Country big time, not your take on it. Prices are just as High but profits not shared with our American workers.
Second, yes we do usually look for the best prices, but try to shop locally, which is hard to do because people flock to WalMarts & big box stores & put the small guy out of business. I Support the local People that Support me.
New Cars- An American Brand built by Union Workers-no matter what cars they say are better !! GO Ford!! Yes. I like them to get Benefits, etc & expect that some of the profit goes to them & not to the hands of the big wigs or Japan or Korea. Union built cars are priced the same or lowers than non-union cars, but again more profit go to the worker, than the big wigs or overseas, What's wrong with that?
Lastly, Union workers fought hard for their wages & benefits, and the standard of living would be higher than it is if they did not lose their power. They do not look down at non-union people as you think-just the ones that come in & take their work, which is not right as an American, where companies bring them in & pit one against the other. IT IS NOT A "CLUB" it is a Union loooking out for the rights of their Workers.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> Look, just because your company is in bed with the COMMUNIST Chinese, so you can make a fast buck on cheap labor, don't make me out to be a bad guy, for not liking it. So, be careful about who you call a socialist. I could care less what they say in Bejing, behind the scene's they are RED COMMUNIST, and I hope they nationalize every factory in that country and teach these GREEDY idiots a lesson.
> 
> Labor is a cost of doing business, but it's not the ONLY cost. By your responses I can see you have not read ALL of my posts. I support the American Workers and there rights, OSHA, UNION right's ect. The reason I do, is because I got sick and tired of working for corporate shills. Who only support US law when it benefits your company and do everything you can to GET AROUND THE LAW, when it benefits the worker.
> 
> ...


My company is not "In-Bed" with the "communists". We actually purchase more from India and Canada than China. We control quality and costs by doing whatever we can to uphold our name in our industry. 98% of our competetors are 100% outsourcing their entire product lines to China and India. 80% of our volume is 75% made in our USA plant - by Americans. 

Don't preach to me and indirectly accuse my company of breaking the law (or skirt around it). We pay A LOT of State and Federal Taxes, and use all available credits to our advantage. Our facility is State DEP and EPA approved. We have a very safe and OSHA compliant factory. We continually invest in our employees with Safety Training, Cross Training and specialized skill training. We offer well above the minimum wage, along with employee subsidized healthcare, 401K, and generous vacation/sick time. We invested over $4M of capital improvements in our facility since 2006.

You are LUCKY companies like us continue to 'stick it out' and keep US-Based manufacturing alive - and keep AMERICAN workers employed. All this while the electrical supply houses and OEM's (our customers) keep beating us up on price day after day to save a few pennies on a box of 100 pcs of sub-dollar items. We are not the cheapest, but we are known in the industry as having the highest product quality AND service - which is what the extra $$ costs. 

We are a PRIVATE, family-owned company and we don't have corporate 'shills'. Its a 3rd generation company trying to make it to a 4th generation. We don't have WallStreet to answer to, just the owners (thank god).:thumbsup:

Constant downward price pressure, rising taxes and increasing regulations, competitors that have already setup shop offshore, and rising employment/material costs are all our daily battle. You honestly have no clue of what it takes to run a manufacturing business against this type of pressure. No wonder many companies are forced to pack up manufacturing and move offshore in order to survive. 

We are forced to AUTOMATE the assembly of our products because LABOR to hand assemble would put our product cost completely out of line with our direct competition's cost on the same item. We spend in excess of $250K on ONE machine to automate assembly of ONE catalog item (if we could do more we would). Even with the high cost of capital, we are still slightly higher in cost. 

Tell me how I can cost compete with someone making XYZ for $0.38 each offshore, when ours made in USA is $0.28 material, $0.04 is facility overhead (utilities, taxes, regulations, etc.), and $0.08 is LABOR (BTW...we purchase USA Produced raw material and components). Our competitor hand assembles offshore, and we automate assembly here. Don't tell me to beat up the material supplier - because we do, and live up to my point that we are ALL responsible for downward price pressure.

The problem(and point I have already made 5x) is that YOU purchase the competitor's XYZ product from the supply house because it's cheaper. Period. Some supply houses could care less that quality or design is horrible, and the electrician gets to take it anyway to save a buck. Every year, they expect the product to cost LESS, not more.

Get rid of the constant downward price pressure and we would ALL be much better off. Heck, we might even make or buy close to 100% of what we sell in the USA.

Take those rose colored glasses off and see the economy for what it is now...GLOBAL. You are still living in the 50's and 60's, where competition was still mainly domestic, and our economy was not as affected by the global community. Now its all GLOBALLY INTERTWINED. Its still easy to import products into the USA that compete directly with USA-produced products. WHY??? If our elected leaders really valued our well being, they would fix that. It was a much different time than now. It is not a level playing field out there, and guess what? We can't make it level on our own. We need the cooperation of our allies around the world to help. 

Unlike you blaming everyone else except yourself, we are looking forward to try and figure out how we can survive into the future. If it means we absolutely need to source some product offshore to be able to sell it, than so be it. It's not our first choice, it's our last.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

mrmike said:


> First, Presently, I do not belong to a UNION but I used to, & union people do see beyond themselves and yes tried to protect their jobs, but the Corporations Won that battle & went overseas or closed up shop. This weakened our Country big time, not your take on it. Prices are just as High but profits not shared with our American workers.
> Second, yes we do usually look for the best prices, but try to shop locally, which is hard to do because people flock to WalMarts & big box stores & put the small guy out of business. I Support the local People that Support me.
> New Cars- An American Brand built by Union Workers-no matter what cars they say are better !! GO Ford!! Yes. I like them to get Benefits, etc & expect that some of the profit goes to them & not to the hands of the big wigs or Japan or Korea. Union built cars are priced the same or lowers than non-union cars, but again more profit go to the worker, than the big wigs or overseas, What's wrong with that?
> Lastly, Union workers fought hard for their wages & benefits, and the standard of living would be higher than it is if they did not lose their power. They do not look down at non-union people as you think-just the ones that come in & take their work, which is not right as an American, where companies bring them in & pit one against the other. IT IS NOT A "CLUB" it is a Union loooking out for the rights of their Workers.


 
One thing we agree on is that manufacturing moved offshore and weakened the USA. How and why it happened is up for debate.

Once the first company goes offshore to gain an edge, than all others in the same industry follow suit. Why? Because they would not remain in business if they remained here. Why? Because the consumer would see the much lower cost and similar quality of offshore product and choose not pay the higher - made in USA price. Why? Because consumers are concerned with value, not keeping you or your family employed. Its cold, yes. 

However, you can't tell me that with Unions raising the wages on most everything that has direct labor in it, that it will not raise the price of the product significantly. We are not just talking about wages either, what about the pension plans, health care plans, etc.? Those have to be one of the most costly things for a company to offer, yet, most white collar jobs don't have them as fully paid benefits (including mine - I have no pension).


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

Everything can be argued both ways, instead of posting a site with lop-sided views here is one that looks at both....you make call as you may

http://immigration.procon.org/


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

*You guys are all very excellent debaters!!* :thumbsup:

In conclusion, UNION or NOT UNION, I see everyone/company/country starts killing each other for their own selfish gains (at individualistic, National, or Grand-scale level) for a long time to come.

*==>> When The Going Get Tough, Da Tough Gets Going!!* (I like this life concept very much, that what our *Darwin Theory of* *species/human evolution's* S*urvival-of-Da-Fittest* is all about.) :whistling

Now, let's wait till *2100 year* and see if human beings can come to Mars's Colony Expansion or not ?? j/k :thumbsup:


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

LJSMITH1 said:


> My company is not "In-Bed" with the "communists". We actually purchase more from India and Canada than China. We control quality and costs by doing whatever we can to uphold our name in our industry. 98% of our competetors are 100% outsourcing their entire product lines to China and India. 80% of our volume is 75% made in our USA plant - by Americans.
> 
> Don't preach to me and indirectly accuse my company of breaking the law (or skirt around it). We pay A LOT of State and Federal Taxes, and use all available credits to our advantage. Our facility is State DEP and EPA approved. We have a very safe and OSHA compliant factory. We continually invest in our employees with Safety Training, Cross Training and specialized skill training. We offer well above the minimum wage, along with employee subsidized healthcare, 401K, and generous vacation/sick time. We invested over $4M of capital improvements in our facility since 2006.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: I like this dude.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

LJSMITH1 said:


> One thing we agree on is that manufacturing moved offshore and weakened the USA. How and why it happened is up for debate.
> 
> Once the first company goes offshore to gain an edge, than all others in the same industry follow suit. Why? Because they would not remain in business if they remained here. Why? Because the consumer would see the much lower cost and similar quality of offshore product and choose not pay the higher - made in USA price. Why? Because consumers are concerned with value, not keeping you or your family employed. Its cold, yes.
> 
> However, you can't tell me that with Unions raising the wages on most everything that has direct labor in it, that it will not raise the price of the product significantly. We are not just talking about wages either, what about the pension plans, health care plans, etc.? Those have to be one of the most costly things for a company to offer, yet, most white collar jobs don't have them as fully paid benefits (including mine - I have no pension).


You did not get the point !! There is no debating that these companies moved overseas to fatten their pockets without fairness to the workers or enviroment. The prices are still high for everything aren't they? Its easy to blame the unions for it, but alot of these companies that left were not union. The prices are still the same or more for the same products that were made here. As an example, Columbia jackets used to be made here. Have you seen the price lately?? Cheaper- I think not-but where is the profit going? None to our fellow countrymen who could be working. I have saw Comanies move out around here & watched those products-and they aren't given them away I'll tell you that, In fact the prices have skyrocketed.
Also part of the problem is attitudes like yours. " they shouldn't have those benefits if I don't"" This is the bickering that Americans have actually used against themselves. Who wins ?? Unions fought hard for those benefits and a decent way of life. With people joined together as in a Union there is power to defend workers rights, without it we have nothing & that is why the working world is in the shape it is in & you will never convince me otherwise
Yes, the American consumer is cold, It is a ME, ME, Me society & they don't care about their fellow countrymen. But do other countries like Japan follow suit- I think not. I remember them smashing an Oldsmobile & a Ford tractor because they did not want them in their country. They won't buy our products. So who is the winners & Losers ?? Get the point????


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

mrmike said:


> You did not get the point !! There is no debating that these companies moved overseas to fatten their pockets without fairness to the workers or enviroment. The prices are still high for everything aren't they? Its easy to blame the unions for it, but alot of these companies that left were not union. The prices are still the same or more for the same products that were made here. As an example, Columbia jackets used to be made here. Have you seen the price lately?? Cheaper- I think not-but where is the profit going? None to our fellow countrymen who could be working. I have saw Comanies move out around here & watched those products-and they aren't given them away I'll tell you that, In fact the prices have skyrocketed.
> Also part of the problem is attitudes like yours. " they shouldn't have those benefits if I don't"" This is the bickering that Americans have actually used against themselves. Who wins ?? Unions fought hard for those benefits and a decent way of life. With people joined together as in a Union there is power to defend workers rights, without it we have nothing & that is why the working world is in the shape it is in & you will never convince me otherwise
> Yes, the American consumer is cold, It is a ME, ME, Me society & they don't care about their fellow countrymen. But do other countries like Japan follow suit- I think not. I remember them smashing an Oldsmobile & a Ford tractor because they did not want them in their country. They won't buy our products. So who is the winners & Losers ?? Get the point????


 
First off, I don't have an 'attitude'. You feel that the only reason for any company to move manufacturing offshore is to get cheaper labor to put more money in their greedy pockets. So just by that you are claiming that these companies were doing just fine before offshoring, making 'plenty' of money with American labor. Gee..a perfectly good reason to just uproot millions of dollars in capital equipment, staffing, and not to mention ruin the livelihoods of factory workers..:blink: Hmmm... 

Do you even know what it takes to transfer manufacturing operations offshore? It's not just a simple phonecall and a few meetings. Its a big deal and very costly. What about the loss of highly skilled employees? All painful. 

What you don't understand is that American companies are competing more and more with foreign companies. When those foreign companies use offshore labor to make the product, and it cost less, who buys it? YOU! What happens to the expensive American company? OUT OF BUSINESS. Columbia jackets might not be cheaper now that they are made offshore, but did you ever think that the company was probably losing control of its labor costs in the USA, and could not keep the jackets at the same price level (or close) that much longer? So they went offshore, got the jackets made and stayed in business employing SOME American workers right here in the USA. Plus, the company pays taxes, which we all need to keep our government working. I suppose you would have just preferred that they close the doors and cease to be. 

Why don't we make TV's or VCR players here anymore? We invented the technology. What AMERICAN company actually makes them anymore? There are none. It's interesting because just about every American has a TV or VCR. We used to have Zenith, GE, RCA, etc...No more. All that manufacturing was lost to cheaper offshore companies like Panasonic, Sony, Philips, LG, etc. Why? Because Americans didn't want to pay $400 for a VCR when they could get one with more features for $200. This all started with the Transistor radio and Japan...not a new issue. This is where things have evolved. Get out of the past.

At the end of the day, yes, there are a few companies that could care less about the American worker. However, that does not mean ALL USA companies are like this. There are quite a few (like the one I work for) that are trying to compete in this environment, WITH AMERICAN WORKERS. Union or no-union, if labor costs are too high, there IS no manufacturing business. 

I remember when the UAW freaked out when the Big 3 started bringing in Automation (welding robots, Engine assembly, etc.) and claimed that the Automation was the enemy to the Union. Union guys were screaming about how their jobs were going to be 'taken' from them, rather than trying to maybe want to learn how to program or maintain that robot. Now, union members work side by side with the automation to help the company stay in business.

Re: Your reference to Japan, that demonstration was part of their import TRADE POLICY and has nothing to do with them not liking American products. The US exports quite a bit of product to Japan and they are our 4th largest export partner. Canada is our #1 export partner followed by Mexico and China. See here http://tse.export.gov/. I suppose you also believe that the middle east supplies the bulk of US oil too..Wrong. Canada #1, followed by Venezuela and Mexico.. See here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/...ons/company_level_imports/current/import.html

How about our coal? You might think we don't import any? Why would we, right? Nope..Columbia is #1... See Here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/quarterly/html/t19p01p1.html


I won't try to 'convince' you of anything. All I am saying is take a look around and see the US Economy for what it is - part of the Global Economy. When we sneeze, the rest of the world gets a cold.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> First off, I don't have an 'attitude'. You feel that the only reason for any company to move manufacturing offshore is to get cheaper labor to put more money in their greedy pockets. So just by that you are claiming that these companies were doing just fine before offshoring, making 'plenty' of money with American labor. Gee..a perfectly good reason to just uproot millions of dollars in capital equipment, staffing, and not to mention ruin the livelihoods of factory workers..:blink: Hmmm...
> 
> Do you even know what it takes to transfer manufacturing operations offshore? It's not just a simple phonecall and a few meetings. Its a big deal and very costly. What about the loss of highly skilled employees? All painful.
> 
> ...


OK, you just don't seem to get it..... We had the highest standard of living in the world and paided the highest wages and benefits in the world, PRIOR to all of the offshoring and outsoursing, which in large part began after NIXON went to China in 1972.

So your arguement is that the cost of labor and taxes are driving American Companies overseas and offshore... Can you explain why they never offshored during the 1940's-through 1970. When I might add we still paided the highest wages and benefits in the world, or are you going to tell me that during the 1960's a worker in CHINA or MEXICO was paid higher wages and that is why American Companies stayed in the US...?

I can't wait for this one.......:no:


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> OK, you just don't seem to get it..... We had the highest standard of living in the world and paided the highest wages and benefits in the world, PRIOR to all of the offshoring and outsoursing, which in large part began after NIXON when to China in 1972.
> 
> So your arguement is that the cost of labor and taxes are driving American Companies overseas and offshore... Can you explain why they never offshored during the 1940's-through 1970. When I might add we still paided the highest wages and benefits in the world, or are you going to tell me that during the 1960's a worker in CHINA or MEXICO was paid higher wages and that is why American Companies stayed in the US...?
> 
> I can't wait for this one.......:no:


 No problem...Let's see if I can explain it another way. *Globalization* is the primary factor/culprit here. Starting in the late 1960's, domestic manufacturing started to see significant pressure from _like_ product imports to a level that was never seen before. Back then, Japan was the target, followed by Taiwan. These countries undercut the US costs significantly, and American consumers responded with their consumption of these items. Cars, electronics, Appliances, parts, etc. were all fair game because of our policy on free trade. Little to no import restrictions at the ports, and the imported product was at your local JC Penney the next day.

Here is a more detailed description from Wiki:



> Globalization, since World War II, is largely the result of planning by politicians to break down borders hampering trade to increase prosperity and interdependence thereby decreasing the chance of future war. Their work led to the Bretton Woods conference, an agreement by the world's leading politicians to lay down the framework for international commerce and finance, and the founding of several international institutions intended to oversee the processes of globalization.
> 
> These institutions include the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development (the World Bank), and the International Monetary Fund. Globalization has been facilitated by advances in technology which have reduced the costs of trade, and trade negotiation rounds, originally under the auspices of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT), which led to a series of agreements to remove restrictions on free trade.
> 
> ...


Rather than some conspiracy-theory-driven-understanding that companies just outsourced everything to break a Union or to not have to hire and pay American workers, is patently ridiculous. :laughing: No, most of these companies thought by offshoring manufacturing jobs, they would be able to stay in business and compete against the flood of imported goods (re: competition) rolling into your local stores. In many cases that helped them stay in business, but at a great expense to the country's labor pool as a whole. GDP would be much higher today if we had the manufacturing output of the post WWII economy.

You are too focused on the symptoms and not the root cause. Prior to 1940, there was very limited free trade outside the USA, which made it much easier for companies in the USA to compete with one another (aka -a level playing field). When a US-Based manufacturing company makes a product that is in DIRECT competition with a offshore competitor that is charging 40% less to the consumer (because they have a standard of living lower than the USA), how can that US company compete for the business?? Do they get all patriotic with the customer or threaten them to buy USA made product or else?? Simply put....they can't, and many just hang it up, workers lose jobs, and time rolls on.:sad: Many manufacturers just sell out to their foreign competition...same thing...

So, as manufacturer's, we can either play the game the way it needs to be played right now, or just wave the white flag and send our kids to be in the services industries (the ones that don't add to the GDP). The bottom line is that real wealth is created by those that MAKE STUFF, and it benefits more than the worker on the line, but the entire country. 

Our direct labor workforce needs to constantly expand its knowledge and skill base to become more valuable and sought-after employees. The days of being a 3rd generation 'machinist' or 'assembler' are long gone. Now you have to be multi-talented and disciplined to be able to have job security. Unions were KEY in creating fair and safe working environments from the early 1900's through the 1960's, along with helping to create governmental oversight (OSHA, DOL, EEOC, etc.). Now that all manufacturers need to operate within these rules, the Unions are looking for ways to survive. 

As my dad told me once, the world always will need ditch diggers, but eventually they will need backhoe operators or the guy who designs the backhoe...Be the backhoe operator or designer.:thumbsup:


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

LJSMITH1 said:


> No problem...Let's see if I can explain it another way. *Globalization* is the primary factor/culprit here. Starting in the late 1960's, domestic manufacturing started to see significant pressure from _like_ product imports to a level that was never seen before. Back then, Japan was the target, followed by Taiwan. These countries undercut the US costs significantly, and American consumers responded with their consumption of these items. Cars, electronics, Appliances, parts, etc. were all fair game because of our policy on free trade. Little to no import restrictions at the ports, and the imported product was at your local JC Penney the next day.


So you agree with me......it has been the free trade policy that has cause this problem.

The US Government COULD have stopped those cheap importers by raising the TARIFF's to keep a level playing field for the American People. But they didn't and now we are in a world of hurt.

The fact that I'm an pointing out is, it is dishonest of corporate america to suggest that it is taxes or higher wages that has driven maunfacturing offshore. The average American buy's those buzz phases about Unions being responible for our loss of manufacturing in the US.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

westernexplorer said:


> So you agree with me......it has been the free trade policy that has cause this problem.
> 
> The US Government COULD have stopped those cheap importers by raising the TARIFF's to keep a level playing field for the American People. But they didn't and now we are in a world of hurt.


You missed his point entirely. Please reread the pst.
Free trade had nothing to do with what he was saying.
GLOBALIZATION
You are trying to simplify something which is very complicated, by blameing free trade.:thumbsup:


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

Framer53 said:


> You missed his point entirely. Please reread the pst.
> Free trade had nothing to do with what he was saying.
> GLOBALIZATION
> You are trying to simplify something which is very complicated, by blameing free trade.:thumbsup:


 
Globalization is a result of FREE TRADE POLICIES. WE don't by in large TRADE with the world. Almost all those products that are manufactured in CHINA with cheap labor, end up back in AMERICA. And you call that trade..? I call that offshoring jobs. The other thing is if we are the largest CONSUMER NATION on the earth, tell me why we need to manufacture products in the 3rd world? In other words the world would have no one to sell to, if we didn't BUY..... So tell me why we need the world again..? Put the tariff's back in place and watch how fast manufacturing stops leaving the US and starts building right here in the good old USA, so they can have access to the largest market on earth.....in fact we might start selling to CHINA again......LOL.

What I'm getting at is, I get the whole point about MAKING THINGS creating wealth. What I'm saying is when WE made almost everything we were strong and our standard of living was based on savings and earning power. Now our entire standard of living is supported by credit and debt.....This is not good for the future of America....


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> My company is not "In-Bed" with the "communists".
> 
> 80% of our volume is 75% made in our USA plant - by Americans.




We may not agree on all points - nor do we have to - but if you company is employing Americans, manufacturing items that I need [I'm an electrician, BTW]...who loses?

I do not desire to "call you out" or embarrass you or your company in any way, shape or form.....if you would or could.....divulge the name of the company?


You do *NOT* have to release your company....and I completely understand if you do not wish to do so.

You do *NOT* have to reply to this message either....and I completely understand if you do not wish to do so.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> Globalization is a result of FREE TRADE POLICIES. *WE don't by in large TRADE with the world. Almost all those products that are manufactured in CHINA with cheap labor, end up back in AMERICA.* And you call that trade..? I call that offshoring jobs. The other thing is if we are the largest CONSUMER NATION on the earth, tell me why we need to manufacture products in the 3rd world? In other words the world would have no one to sell to, if we didn't BUY..... So tell me why we need the world again..? Put the tariff's back in place and watch how fast manufacturing stops leaving the US and starts building right here in the good old USA, so they can have access to the largest market on earth.....in fact we might start selling to CHINA again......LOL.
> 
> What I'm getting at is, I get the whole point about MAKING THINGS creating wealth. What I'm saying is when WE made almost everything we were strong and our standard of living was based on savings and earning power. Now our entire standard of living is supported by credit and debt.....This is not good for the future of America....


Please tell me where you get your information. I have supplied references with most of my posts to back up my facts. We have trade with every developed and developing nation in the world. China is a trading partner with the very same nations we are - and export the same product to those nations. It is not Us vs Them anymore. The cold war is done. I am not even sure if China really is technically communist anymore as they have become more capitalist than any other communist nation on the planet. Maybe its a blend and we can call them "Commucapitalistic". 

You want to turn back the clock and go to a place in time that no longer exists. That's fine, but it will never happen. We currently import more than we export, and it has been that way for a long time. Yes, we are a major consumer of products made all over the world, but a big function of that is our relatively higher standard of living when compared to other countries. You keep referring to China as a _3rd world country_, when in fact, they are not. They are considered a developing, '2nd world country', along with Russia and the Middle East. In fact, India is closer to a 3rd world status than China is.

Here's a nice little graphic from Wiki:


 
World map indicating a Human Development Index (2008 Update) 

Green shades indicate developed countries. Lime and Orange are developing. Red and dark Red are not developing (3rd world).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World

In the coming years, more and more nations of the planet will be turning a shade of green in the graph above. That's a fact. When that happens, the standard of living that we are talking about will _not _have the same level of disparity that we have now. While our standard of living stagnates or slowly rises, other developing nations will rapidly improve. 

Look at AFRICA...mark my words, once China is solid green along with India, Russia and most of the Middle East, Africa will be the next place countries will outsource manufacturing labor to.

The tariff situation is a double edged sword, while it may help trim imports in the short term, you can bet it will trim our exports at the same time (due to reciprocity). At least now we have 'some' exporting - it could go down to zero...and guess what? Those American companies that manufacture to export product would shut down and American workers would lose their jobs. 

There is no easy answer to solve these issues, and if there was, I am sure some people smarter than me or you would have figured it out by now. The important thing is that we should all keep talking to figure something out and not have an 'all or nothing' approach.:thumbsup:


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

Here's something interesting hot off the press this AM. It makes me very happy to see that manufacturing is coming back to the USA:clap:. Notice the part about Union concessions...

*GE Adding Operations As Part Of Plan To Manufacture More In US.*

The New York Times (8/7, B3, Greenhouse) reports, "For the first time in decades, General Electric is adding new operations at two of its manufacturing hubs, underlining what the company says is a new commitment to producing in the United States." The two are a new "350-employee plant in Schenectady, N.Y., to make high-density batteries that will turn many locomotives into diesel-electric hybrids;" and adding 420 employees in Louisville, KY, "to produce hybrid electric water heaters -- heaters now made in China." The decisions to add those operations "came only after its unions agreed to keep costs down by swallowing painful concessions." CEO Jeffrey R. Immelt "said the two new operations are part of his campaign to get corporate America to strengthen and expand manufacturing in the United States." Immelt "has in recent weeks voiced deep worries about America's sagging manufacturing base," and "has chided America's policy makers and corporate leaders for thinking the country could prosper by forsaking manufacturing and focusing on financial services." Immelt said that "the United States should aim to have manufacturing jobs represent at least 20 percent of all jobs, twice today's percentage." Immelt also said that "G.E. had outsourced too many operations in some areas."


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

LJSMITH 1 "quote " Rather than some conspiracy-theory-driven-understanding that companies just outsourced everything to break a Union or to not have to hire and pay American workers, is patently ridiculous. :laughing: 


No laughing matter here as it is NOT RIDICULOUS. It is True! It was out all War against the unions in the Nixon, REAGAN, & Bush eras- Companies still do not bargain in good faith-they just say "take it or leave it" or Else we will bring in "replacement workers". I've been there Man & your sentence is Ridiculous ! just a few years back the "poor" meatcutters wanted to have a union at WalMart- What happened- they got rid of them all ! They have proccessing plants & transport it to the stores. 
Get the Point man- The companies have went to extremes to break unions as they don't want anything stand in their way- even supporting fellow Americans


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> ARI001,
> 
> Your views border on FASCISM. I don't care what the Obama Administration does on healthcare, private or public. I will make money under either system, regardless of the rules. You seem to spend a lot of your time whinning about the rules of business, instead of just playing the game. The rules of the game change all the time, just like in sports. However, it's your proformance on the field that wins the game, not the rules. Consentrate on running your business by playing the maketing game and you will win. Labor is just a cost of doing business, not the way you do business.


Fascism: A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism. Oppressive or dictatorial control.

Capitalist: An investor of capital in a business, esp, one having a major interest in an important enterprise. A person of great wealth. A person who supports capitalism.

Capitalistic: Of or pertaining to capitalism or capitalists.

Socialism: A social system in which the producers possesses both political power and the means of producing and distributing goods. The theory or practice of those who support such social system. In Marxist Leninist theory, the building of material base for communism under the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Communism: A social system characterized by the common ownership of the means of production and subsistence and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members. 

I sir, am a capitalist. I do not control the social or economic being of my employees. They are free to leave if they can do better somewhere else. All businesses have a chain of command and set practices and procedures established by those with controlling interest and risk undertaken in the business. This is not fascism it is risk management. The United States government and military have the same basic systems in play. 

I am not whining about the rules of business and the rules do not change as much as you think. Marketing is a big part of the "game" but so is performance and ability to competitively price out your work. Labor is one of the substantial costs of doing business. Those who produce the best work in the shortest period are those that earn the highest pay. Those who are just bodies on the site meeting minimum standards should be those paid the least. That's just business it's nothing personal, just business.


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## XanadooLTD (Oct 6, 2007)

United Socialists of America!!! Bailout nation.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

mrmike said:


> LJSMITH 1 "quote " Rather than some conspiracy-theory-driven-understanding that companies just outsourced everything to break a Union or to not have to hire and pay American workers, is patently ridiculous. :laughing:
> 
> 
> No laughing matter here as it is NOT RIDICULOUS. It is True! It was out all War against the unions in the Nixon, REAGAN, & Bush eras- Companies still do not bargain in good faith-they just say "take it or leave it" or Else we will bring in "replacement workers". I've been there Man & your sentence is Ridiculous ! just a few years back the "poor" meatcutters wanted to have a union at WalMart- What happened- they got rid of them all ! They have proccessing plants & transport it to the stores.
> Get the Point man- The companies have went to extremes to break unions as they don't want anything stand in their way- even supporting fellow Americans


 
Ok..if you say so.... Let me be clear, I am not laughing *AT* anyone who loses their job, just at the _idea_ that the only reason why companies are offshoring is to break Unions. If that were really true, why are Unions (in general) less popular among the middle class than they were only 30 years ago? If that is so, why are Unions still so predominant in Government or public services and not so much on the private sectors? I would think that everyone would know there is a concerted effort to break the union and jump on the bandwagon to unionize every manufacturer in the USA, and in Europe (they have the same issue). If it were true, then why are companies that are not Unionized, doing the same EXACT thing???

Why should any employer be beholden to a particular group to hire from? For example, if they hire non-union Americans, why should that be a problem, they are American citizens, right? Apparently, it is a BIG problem for some folks. I am not talking about illegals here. I am talking about equally-skilled folks that are willing to work for less than what others are willing to work for. If they are AMERICAN, why should it matter? If the employer is following all of the regulations and laws (that the Unions helped create), why shouldn't they be free to hire whomever they want? I don't understand...

Do you think that if you 'decide' to work for a company that they should just automatically hire you? What about keeping those workers employed...Do you think that if a company is in bad financial shape (due to the economy or strong competition) that they should not be able to lay people off or cut salaries and benefits just to keep people employed and the company afloat? I am willing to bet that you would say 'yes' to one or more of these questions.

Losing a job is not funny (as I have been laid off 2x in my career). I know what it feels like not to have health insurance coverage, struggle to pay my mortgage, struggle to feed my family. In both cases, the company made stupid decisions that resulted in financial meltdowns, and many employees lost jobs. Not my fault, but I got hurt. Guess what? I got right back on my feet and moved on. I don't harbor any bad feelings towards those that let me go, because I understand (and accept) that I am a replaceable 'resource'. I have no intent on being a 'lifer' at any company. I will do what I do until I don't grow anymore, then I'll change gears. 

My point is, nowadays companies make decisions that might not have anything to do with the American worker, but can affect the American worker in a negative way. That is unfortunate, but it is typically just a business decision. At my company, overall production volume has dropped close to 35%. That required us to reduce headcount on the production floor and eliminate some salaried positions. We did not *want* to do this , as many of the employees are skilled and experienced. However, we could not financially afford to keep them on - and there was not enough work for them to do. If business picks up, we certainly will call many of these folks back (if they have not already started another job). If I was on the receiving end of this layoff, I would do what I did in the past. Pick myself up and move on. This is nothing personal, it's just business. Sometimes business is a bit*h on both sides of the aisle.

Having a job is not a 'right' of every person in the developed world. It is a choice. Its a choice of an employer to hire you, and a choice for an individual to accept the offer and compensation. Barring discrimination or any other employment law issue, there should be synergy with this. However, there are some groups that believe that a paying job is a 'right' or an 'entitlement', and could be furthest from reality. They further demand more than the going rate and feel entitled to more benefits, pensions, or special work rules. When the groups don't get what they want, they 'extort' it by slowing work, or stopping it all together. This does nothing except hurt the company that they work for. Sometimes, it puts the company out of business all together. So companies ultimately give in to save the pain, and raise costs to their products. Which then puts them in a more difficult position to compete with companies that don't have this issue.

Many states (including mine) are "at will" employment, and labor laws make it very clear that when you sign on, you may be terminated for any reason (or no reason) at any time. Likewise, an employee is free to quit with no notice and for any reason. The rules are laid out in advance, and I don't worry every day that I may lose my job today. I just focus doing the best job I can every day.:thumbsup:


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

mrmike said:


> LJSMITH 1 "quote " Rather than some conspiracy-theory-driven-understanding that companies just outsourced everything to break a Union or to not have to hire and pay American workers, is patently ridiculous. :laughing:
> 
> 
> No laughing matter here as it is NOT RIDICULOUS. It is True! It was out all War against the unions in the Nixon, REAGAN, & Bush eras- Companies still do not bargain in good faith-they just say "take it or leave it" or Else we will bring in "replacement workers". I've been there Man & your sentence is Ridiculous ! just a few years back the "poor" meatcutters wanted to have a union at WalMart- What happened- they got rid of them all ! They have proccessing plants & transport it to the stores.
> Get the Point man- The companies have went to extremes to break unions as they don't want anything stand in their way- even supporting fellow Americans


MRMIKE,

They don't get it because they can't get it. What's the old saying..." walk a mile in my shoes". They are self centered with blinders on, much like the politicians in Washington DC. 

Just as the article about GE expanding in NY and KY said, about painful concession's to the UNION WORKERS, Now the CEO's didn't share in this pain at all.......selfish and self centered, that's why they are Republicans


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> MRMIKE,
> 
> They don't get it because they can't get it. What's the old saying..." walk a mile in my shoes". They are self centered with blinders on, much like the politicians in Washington DC.
> 
> Just as wrote painful concession's to the WORKERS, Now the CEO's didn't share in this pain at all.......selfish and self centered, that why they are Republicans


 
I like how you group me into a stereotype...:whistling

I don't think YOU get it, nor will you ever...Keep living in the past and drinking the Kool-Aid. I am sure you will be just fine. In your eyes oranges and baseballs are the same thing - they are round balls.

I am a registered Independent and have been for 18 years. Now I bet you are going to chastise me for that....

Hmm...I wonder how things would be if a company just cut it's own head off by eliminating all VP's, The CEO, & Directors....I am sure you would think it would work just fine because at least no WORKERS were laid off, right??:thumbup: You should become a consultant and see how that might work in reality.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

This is what the Unions and its supporters don't seem to get:
When starting any business the person(s) involved assume great liability and risks. If the business does not succeed (most do not) they lose their investment into the business and in some cases everything they have. If the business succeeds they get a return on the risk they have undertaken.

It falls on the people running the business and who have invested in it to decide what they need to charge for their product to 1. Sell the product 2. Cover the expenses associated with production of the product 3. Turning a profit from the sale of the product.

The business must set wages for labor that will allow these goals to be accomplished and must do so while adhering to a multitude of regulations and laws as well as paying a fair competitive wage in order to keep those employees that are valuable to the business. When you artificially inflate the value of the labor burden beyond a point in which people are willing to pay for the product you can not sell the product. If you can not sell the product you will not stay in business. If the business goes under you lose your investment and your labor force loses its jobs. 

I have no problem with organizing labor to ensure that employees are treated fairly and provided with safe working conditions. I also have no problem with employee representation ensuring businesses are following the laws set forth by the government to ensure fair and ethical treatment of employees.

I have issues with organized labor trying to extort wages from businesses for labor that may or may not perform adequately to justify said wage. All private businesses are production based and must decide compensation of its employees on a per basis rate in which they are able to produce. Paying a wage above this amount can result in catastrophic consequences for the business. 

Remember guys if it wasn't for the person taking the risk to start that business you would have no one to negotiate with. The businesses are not the enemy, they create the potential for jobs in the area they are located in. If the expenses of doing business exceed what the business can recoup they have two choices:

1. Relocate somewhere they can continue to operate and meet their goals.
2. Close up shop.

Now you invest a large percentage of your hard earned money into a business and see how you feel about someone outside of your company dictating the wages you pay and the employees you can hire. 

No company will survive very long if they do not pay their employees a competitive rate. If they underpay good employees they will lose those employees and be stuck with those that do not produce well. If they overpay the employees that are under producing the productive employees will not be motivated to continue producing at a higher production rate.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> This is what the Unions and its supporters don't seem to get:
> When starting any business the person(s) involved assume great liability and risks. If the business does not succeed (most do not) they lose their investment into the business and in some cases everything they have. If the business succeeds they get a return on the risk they have undertaken.
> 
> It falls on the people running the business and who have invested in it to decide what they need to charge for their product to 1. Sell the product 2. Cover the expenses associated with production of the product 3. Turning a profit from the sale of the product.
> ...


 
Well said. I especially agree with your statement in bold.:clap:


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## Kuba (May 3, 2009)

Its very interesting that the parties that support outsourcing are also the ones supporting the green tax on us citizens...Heres the catch... Exploite labor expenses over seas, pay tons of fuel costs to ship materials to and from the US = tons of green house gas + increased unemployment in the US + power leverage on US industry pricing.Tell me someone didnt plan this...If US leadership cared so much about green house gases in industry, why the fk they endorce outsourcing, which increases polution to colosal porportions.1 - it will cause US citizens and small business to scream for Gov aid2 - increases Gov income through illegal taxation.You have 2 things at your front door right now...8% income tax as a worker for the new medicare system5% green house credit taxes...youre all in business... how much is the middle class worker now going to have to shell out in taxes .... they are already close to 40% with our match that we pay... (Felony to tell them about it by the way - they dont want your workers getting mad when they find out their potential earnings are being taken away from them)


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

Kuba said:


> Its very interesting that the parties that support outsourcing are also the ones supporting the green tax on us citizens...Heres the catch... Exploite labor expenses over seas, pay tons of fuel costs to ship materials to and from the US = tons of green house gas + increased unemployment in the US + power leverage on US industry pricing.Tell me someone didnt plan this...If US leadership cared so much about green house gases in industry, why the fk they endorce outsourcing, which increases polution to colosal porportions.1 - it will cause US citizens and small business to scream for Gov aid2 - increases Gov income through illegal taxation.You have 2 things at your front door right now...8% income tax as a worker for the new medicare system5% green house credit taxes...youre all in business... how much is the middle class worker now going to have to shell out in taxes .... they are already close to 40% with our match that we pay... (Felony to tell them about it by the way - they dont want your workers getting mad when they find out their potential earnings are being taken away from them)


Cap and Trade is one of the biggest scams coming down the pike, aside from man-made global warming (don't get me started!:furious. I agree that certain groups are looking to get more tax money out of everyone, not just the middle class. Unfortunately, if they are successful, the middle class will bear a large portion of the tax. 

Not that I am advocating outsourcing (I am very pro-Made In USA), but how will that "colossally increase pollution"? If we import or export, there are still shipping concerns. Locally, environmentalists and governments in MANY areas around the world have made great strides in improving pollution control and regulations. However, in other areas, people don't care. Forget about the manufacturing...agricultural activities have caused more lasting negative environmental impacts (i.e. pesticides, fertilizers, land clearing, etc) than a few factories of assemblers or plastic molders. Couple that with poor sanitation (i.e. your poo floating down a river that people wash clothes in), makes for a locally toxic environment - anywhere. Because we are a developed country, we have indoor plumbing, garbage disposals, emissions controls, technology, and most importantly - an energy delivery system (gas-oil-electricity). Wow...we are smart, and we are not isolationists.

The big question is: How can you get others, who are in the stone age - creating pollution - harming the planet, to be as developed as us? Not an easy task because of the politics, cultures, and personalities of the leaders involved. We can't even stop war....


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## Kuba (May 3, 2009)

First of all, Im one of those guys who thinks that one families problems shouldnt be that of the whole neighborhoods... In otherwords, stay out of other countries fkn business unless they provoke us.Fact: The whole world HATES the USA - be cause we have our nose so far up their ass telling them what and how to live their life... Funny hypo ideology for those preaching freedom eh???Fact: They use more fuels and produce more waste growing, processing and shipping ORANGES in Brazil then the US does... BUT they are smashing the US agriculture industry! Florida Orange Juice is on the brink of bankrupcy.. And that was BEFORE this economic bull **** forced crash!Fact: Cash for clunkers is to stimulate the auto industry and the gov wants to trick the US citizens into paying for their OWN employment! Double back end taxation and huuuuuge inflation attatched to this... Need I mention its not going to do anything for the auto industry!!! NOTHING!!!! The money will run out and they will be back to square one! WHY?? BECAUSE FORD AND CHEVY ARE NO LONGER AMERICAN VEHICALS!!! They are made in Mexico and Canada! Toyota employees more Americans then "The heart beat of America"....Fact: Obamas new Medicare plans are NO WAY FIXING a broken system. In FACT, its long term affects will crush it! You will be left with a health care system like Canada and France!! COMPLETE CAVE MAN CARE and 50% TAXATION ON IT!!!! WOW!!! And the Gov wont have anyone competing over them later....With Obama in office you can count on CHANGE1# Watching every middle class and small business owner crushed with taxes2# Industry coming to another recession and complete overhaul of the American Currency = AMERO#3~ THE NORTH AMERICAN UNION - because the American people asked for it!Please tell me ANY welfare program has worked..? I can name a few... Food stamps, Sub Housing etc....Does any of that help people? NOOOOOOOOOOO It breeds rats, criminals and government slaves! They dont want to work or better themselves so long as us business owners are shelling out their way in life!!!!F K them all!FABIEN SOCIETY bitches!!!!


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

Kuba I think you need to have a drink...or two...or three!:drink: Maybe I wil join you!

But I understand you completely and I share much of the same frustration with the a$$clowns in Congress and in our local governments. Do nothings...

Just look at the idiots that were just nailed in NJ.:blink:..My state (CT) has had its ongoing share of tehse corrupt, self serving, idiots. Yet, some people are so blind to the lack of qualificaions many of these folks have. You could be a Marion Barry..and get elected 2X and be a drug addict!:furious: WTF!


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Kuba said:


> First of all, Im one of those guys who thinks that one families problems shouldnt be that of the whole neighborhoods... In otherwords, stay out of other countries fkn business unless they provoke us.Fact: The whole world HATES the USA - be cause we have our nose so far up their ass telling them what and how to live their life... Funny hypo ideology for those preaching freedom eh???Fact: They use more fuels and produce more waste growing, processing and shipping ORANGES in Brazil then the US does... BUT they are smashing the US agriculture industry! Florida Orange Juice is on the brink of bankrupcy.. And that was BEFORE this economic bull **** forced crash!Fact: Cash for clunkers is to stimulate the auto industry and the gov wants to trick the US citizens into paying for their OWN employment! Double back end taxation and huuuuuge inflation attatched to this... Need I mention its not going to do anything for the auto industry!!! NOTHING!!!! The money will run out and they will be back to square one! WHY?? BECAUSE FORD AND CHEVY ARE NO LONGER AMERICAN VEHICALS!!! They are made in Mexico and Canada! Toyota employees more Americans then "The heart beat of America"....Fact: Obamas new Medicare plans are NO WAY FIXING a broken system. In FACT, its long term affects will crush it! You will be left with a health care system like Canada and France!! COMPLETE CAVE MAN CARE and 50% TAXATION ON IT!!!! WOW!!! And the Gov wont have anyone competing over them later....With Obama in office you can count on CHANGE1# Watching every middle class and small business owner crushed with taxes2# Industry coming to another recession and complete overhaul of the American Currency = AMERO#3~ THE NORTH AMERICAN UNION - because the American people asked for it!Please tell me ANY welfare program has worked..? I can name a few... Food stamps, Sub Housing etc....Does any of that help people? NOOOOOOOOOOO It breeds rats, criminals and government slaves! They dont want to work or better themselves so long as us business owners are shelling out their way in life!!!!F K them all!FABIEN SOCIETY bitches!!!!


While I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying you discredit yourself the way you present your argument. Also please use the enter key every now and then.


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## Kuba (May 3, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> This is what the Unions and its supporters don't seem to get:
> When starting any business the person(s) involved assume great liability and risks. If the business does not succeed (most do not) they lose their investment into the business and in some cases everything they have. If the business succeeds they get a return on the risk they have undertaken.
> 
> It falls on the people running the business and who have invested in it to decide what they need to charge for their product to 1. Sell the product 2. Cover the expenses associated with production of the product 3. Turning a profit from the sale of the product.
> ...


Think about what you said the next time you take your wife to go buy something with a sticker on it "Made in China" "Made in Indonesia" "Made in Vietnam" "Made in the Phillipines" "Made in Mexico" ..... on and on....Fact of the matter is.. When you buy something imported, you are fkn yoru self and your fellow American =)Construction is one of the last entities they cant outsource.. Well, until they make it legal to bring foreign workers into our boarders to build something for a profit, and then LEAVE...Its all fkn bull****... There are no fair trade agreements, they have it set up that way. If they are going to exploit labor expenses and material costs over seas, they need to adjust the import taxes so its fair competition for our industry, instead of letting the world bend us over and our American ELite get rich as hell doing it!Small business is the backbone of this country.. And they sure want to see that destroyed...WHy dont we start jacking the fkn price of our timber and food exports like they jack our energy imports.. no???


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## Kuba (May 3, 2009)

I sir, am a capitalist. I do not control the social or economic being of my employees. They are free to leave if they can do better somewhere else. All businesses have a chain of command and set practices and procedures established by those with controlling interest and risk undertaken in the business. This is not fascism it is risk management. The United States government and military have the same basic systems in play. 

&Bull****.. Yeah coming from a former Marine too...See " Military Commision Act of 2006"Straight from the US White House web site...Your gov is more fascious than you realize and its getting worse dude... For the most part b/c people watch corp news and are feed bull**** lies and distractions.


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## Kuba (May 3, 2009)

multi tasking.. sry bout the hard reading... leaving to get my kids now...I think i will have a drink.. even tho i dont drink =) Ill make a toast to all the dumb fkz that think CNN, MSNBC, FOX.. all them bs new channels "preachh the truth"... riiiiight... Be cause they know Americans dont read anymore and are to lazy to find the truth for themselves.. So they go on forums all over the world and spew bs they saw on the FAKE news to make themselves look important....sigh


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

KUBA,
You have issues. I think maybe a visit to a psychiatrist or counselor would benefit you. If you can't make an argument without all the expletives it leads me to believe you are not capable of intelligent conversation or debate. Calm down, take a deep breath and go to your happy place.


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## Kuba (May 3, 2009)

Go fix your Obama Bumper sticker you fkn commie


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Kuba said:


> Go fix your Obama Bumper sticker you fkn commie


First, I think you will find that most guys here are very confrontational so take your Fabien society stuff somewhere else. Second, you obviously have very limited understanding of the English language if you are calling me a communist. I was trying to convey to you that to make a valid argument you can not let your emotions get the better of you.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Kuba said:


> Go fix your Obama Bumper sticker you fkn commie


I will defend him, he is not a communist. Didn't you read the definitions he posted?


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

He supports the right of labor to organize for safety and working conditions and the ethical treanment to ensure government laws are followed, but not wages..?

You said Business has the right to set wages, your wrong. The market place sets wages. Labor is just like any other commodity, the greater the supply the lower the price.

This is why the Elite, Conservatives AND Liberal's want to welcome all the illegal's into the US and tell everyone "how much we need them to do all the jobs American's won't do". This is done to enrich the top 1% in this country. See, I'm a businessman, just not one of the top 1%. I sir, support the American people and as a US Military Veteran myself, it pains me greatly, to see American's displaced by people who shouldn't be here to begin with.

Carpentry, roofing, carpet installing, painting, use to all be good jobs that paid a living wage and you could raise a family on those jobs. Now, almost without exception the only American's on residential jobs are the plumbers and electrician's, because the journeyman are required by State law to be licensed and the test is only given in English in my State.

You sir, are the one living with your head in the sand. You think after we continue to drive this country to her knee's that the world will be waiting to help us. We are on our own, and the sooner you and the rest of the Globalization crowd figure that out, we will all be better off.

I pay my people the top wage and provide a retirement for them and they produce a quality installation. I see these people in the grocery stores and the malls. I know there families and most of there kids. I sir, don't have the stomach to be a part of destroying the future of America for there kids or my own. If that means, I make a little less money every year, than so be it. You can call me whatever you want to, but I will leave this world with a clean consense, knowing I did everything I could to save this country for future generations. Which, by the way includes my children.

There is a difference between making a decent profit and being down right greedy. We are all in business to make money. I don't operate a non-profit company. However, I can look my employee's in the eye and without question, they know they are being paid the highest wage and benefit package in the industry and they work hard for it.


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## Kuba (May 3, 2009)

Thats ok tho, it was sarcasm... like the jabs I just took right?If someone was so bold to disagree with something i said, then do so and move the fk on. You want to shoot rude comments you'll get nothing but the same in return. Obviously you are just some fkn ******* that has to disagree with someones opinion by bad mouthing them. No?? Are you that good at pointing out peoples flaws all the time? Or are you another one of those guys that uses the internet as a woobie/firewall? As for my writting, my interface is messed up and its throwing everything into one paragraph.. I think its actually my wives laptop thats messed up, wow and Im using that right now...Im not here to win a spelling contest if you so happen to not like to see what I read, put me on ignore you fkn panzy ass.Im not here to make friends with individuals who contribute nothing to this web site.Guess, its a leason for me.. Keep polotics on a political forum.. This is for builders. I can find a million of "ARI001" on different sites..They have nothing to say to contribute to your comments, they just like to pick out your grammer or spelling or whatever makes them feel better than you =) God knows every real contractor on this site will tell you no one would disrespect someone else like this in real life without getting a claw hammer placed between their ears =)nuff said...


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

westernexplorer said:


> He supports the right of labor to organize for safety and working conditions and the ethical treanment to ensure government laws are followed, but not wages..?
> 
> You said Business has the right to set wages, your wrong. The market place sets wages. Labor is just like any other commodity, the greater the supply the lower the price.
> 
> ...


 
I Commend you my friend, I just wish we had more people on your side of the Fence, but we know how the horses are led to water & made to drink & have their Blinders on !!


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> He supports the right of labor to organize for safety and working conditions and the ethical treanment to ensure government laws are followed, but not wages..?
> 
> You said Business has the right to set wages, your wrong. The market place sets wages. Labor is just like any other commodity, the greater the supply the lower the price.
> 
> ...


You are taking things out of context, obviously if I support government laws I support wages too, just not unjustified wages (i.e. $50.00 dollars per hour for a carpenter who can't justify that in his/her production out put). The way the business sets wages is dictated by the market. I feel like I'm traveling in circles talking to you. :wallbash:


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Kuba said:


> Thats ok tho, it was sarcasm... like the jabs I just took right?If someone was so bold to disagree with something i said, then do so and move the fk on. You want to shoot rude comments you'll get nothing but the same in return. Obviously you are just some fkn ******* that has to disagree with someones opinion by bad mouthing them. No?? Are you that good at pointing out peoples flaws all the time? Or are you another one of those guys that uses the internet as a woobie/firewall? As for my writting, my interface is messed up and its throwing everything into one paragraph.. I think its actually my wives laptop thats messed up, wow and Im using that right now...Im not here to win a spelling contest if you so happen to not like to see what I read, put me on ignore you fkn panzy ass.Im not here to make friends with individuals who contribute nothing to this web site.Guess, its a leason for me.. Keep polotics on a political forum.. This is for builders. I can find a million of "ARI001" on different sites..They have nothing to say to contribute to your comments, they just like to pick out your grammer or spelling or whatever makes them feel better than you =) God knows every real contractor on this site will tell you no one would disrespect someone else like this in real life without getting a claw hammer placed between their ears =)nuff said...


Next time you're going to be in my area shoot me a PM. If you think your so bad I'm sure we can find a gym with a ring in it. I spend a lot of time hitting the weights just for guys like you that like to run off at the mouth. I won't be needing the claw hammer to defend myself, how about you?

If you don't want your grammar, spelling, and intellect picked on know what you are saying before you say it. I don't like to ignore lunatics cause if you turn your back to them next thing you know they are blowing up a building to make a point. You're comments seem to place you in that category. As far as the problem with the computer and paragraph formation I apologize for the statement if indeed the issue is with the computer.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Why should any employer be beholden to a particular group to hire from? For example, if they hire non-union Americans, why should that be a problem, they are American citizens, right? Apparently, it is a BIG problem for some folks. I am not talking about illegals here. *I am talking about equally-skilled folks that are willing to work for less than what others are willing to work for. *If they are AMERICAN, why should it matter? If the employer is following all of the regulations and laws (that the Unions helped create), why shouldn't they be free to hire whomever they want? I don't understand...


How many employees would really be "equally skilled" w/o some sort of formal apprenticeship/training program?

"Most" of the building trades workforce [by my own scientific calculations] have no little to no formal training of any sort.

The playing field is not level, and some will also be willing to do more for less....mostly due to ignorance, I suspect.

[Above in regards to building trades only]










ARI001 said:


> I have no problem with organizing labor to ensure that employees are treated fairly and provided with safe working conditions. I also have no problem with employee representation ensuring businesses are following the laws set forth by the government to ensure fair and ethical treatment of employees.


Do you have a problem w/organized labor supplying businesses with a qualified work force?

:shuriken: 
Ninja strike...bet you didn't see that coming, did you?
:laughing:




LJSMITH1 said:


> Just look at the idiots that were just nailed in NJ.:blink:..



HEY!!!!!
I know some of those guys :whistling


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## LJSMITH1 (May 27, 2009)

Celtic said:


> How many employees would really be "equally skilled" w/o some sort of formal apprenticeship/training program?
> 
> "Most" of the building trades workforce [by my own scientific calculations] have no little to no formal training of any sort.
> 
> ...


Most of my comments were written in the vein of manufacturing and not building trades. Many companies have well established work training programs to teach anyone how to do a particular manufacturing job if they have the aptitude. If Unions were only in the building trade business (Electricians, carpenters, plumbers, etc.) - AND everyone used union members....then I would not have as much of an issue because it should be a more level playing field. This type of work is not easily outsourced overseas.

In the matter of manufacturing jobs, people can do the work thousands of miles away, in a different culture, and with a different standard of living. Unions don't bring much to the employer's table in this current environment, mainly due to the intense global competition. Like I said before, all the employment and safety laws and regulations that Unions helped put in place - exist everywhere in the USA. So, if employers can also provide training as needed, what else is being offered? There shouldn't be only one game in town for a qualified manufacturing work force. Employers are perfectly adept in determining who is qualified and who isn't.

Westernexplorer thinks I am a "globalist"...hahaha! No. I am very pro-USA. However, that doesn't mean I have to put my head in the sand and ignore what is happening all around me in the hopes that it will just go away. If anyone thinks globalization is just a fad or a phase, they are sorely mistaken. The cat is out of the bag and it changes the game - permanently. If we don't adjust somehow, we will no longer have a manufacturing base to compete with.

I really hope companies start pulling back manufacturing jobs to the USA. We need to get back to the business of making things, and if it costs more to do it here, we all need to step up and support the folks taking the risk.

Re: the NJ corruption fiasco...my condolences...:whistling Don't worry, I hope our Chris Dodd gets his walking papers too. CT has had quite a few mayors and governors nailed over the years...they are all idiots!


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

LJSMITH1 said:


> Most of my comments were written in the vein of manufacturing and not building trades. Many companies have well established work training programs to teach anyone how to do a particular manufacturing job if they have the aptitude. If Unions were only in the building trade business (Electricians, carpenters, plumbers, etc.) - AND everyone used union members....then I would not have as much of an issue because it should be a more level playing field. This type of work is not easily outsourced overseas.
> 
> In the matter of manufacturing jobs, people can do the work thousands of miles away, in a different culture, and with a different standard of living. Unions don't bring much to the employer's table in this current environment, mainly due to the intense global competition. Like I said before, all the employment and safety laws and regulations that Unions helped put in place - exist everywhere in the USA. So, if employers can also provide training as needed, what else is being offered? There shouldn't be only one game in town for a qualified manufacturing work force. Employers are perfectly adept in determining who is qualified and who isn't.


I had read an article a few years back that addressed white collar jobs - primary Wall St. - the jist of the article was essentially that Wall St. itself could be outsourced to anywhere there was a phone and internet connection.
Scary thoughts....
Manufacturing outsourced/off-shore.
Illegal immigrant workforce doing construction/repair.
Wall St. in India.
What's left?







LJSMITH1 said:


> Re: the NJ corruption fiasco...my condolences...:whistling Don't worry, I hope our Chris Dodd gets his walking papers too. CT has had quite a few mayors and governors nailed over the years...they are all idiots!


I think it's pretty much the same everywhere there is a politician :laughing: ....some just haven't been bagged....yet :shifty:


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

bwalley said:


> the least productive people I have ever worked with was the elevator guys, they were always threatening to pull off the job, complaining about their rights, etc.


Stupid rights. Workers need to learn their place!


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

westernexplorer said:


> You said Business has the right to set wages, your wrong. The market place sets wages. Labor is just like any other commodity, the greater the supply the lower the price.
> 
> This is why the Elite, Conservatives AND Liberal's want to welcome all the illegal's into the US and tell everyone "how much we need them to do all the jobs American's won't do". This is done to enrich the top 1% in this country.
> 
> ...


Absolutely brother. I laugh when I hear the statement that the illegal immigrants only do the jobs that "Americans won't do," yet the guys I always see cleaning the honey buckets and port-o-potties around here are ALWAYS Americans.

That is the shi&&iest job (pun intended) on the construction site, but it is always Americans doing it. There is no job an American won't do, it's just that an American can't afford to live off of $7/hr because he actually has to pay rent and purchase groceries in America, not send everything back to Mexico where the cost of living is a joke compared to here.

I'm wondering how much longer some of these guys like Ari01 will be proponents of 'globalism' when big contractors start subbing out to Mexican construction companies and pay for their workers to live on site for the duration of the project?

That's a bill that actually almost passed up here in Washington. Employers were going to be able to hire and HOUSE non-American 'guest workers' (read: Mexican) for projects if a US company didn't take the job withing THREE DAYS of posting it. Additionally, the companies were going to be allowed to RECOVER some of the housing and boarding expenses from the 'guest workers.'

So a GC could truck whole crews of workers up from Mexico, house them, feed them, pay them ridiculously low wages, then CHARGE the workers for room and board.

If that legislation ever passes in Ari01's hood, I have a feeling he'll be out there picketing right along side the unions because it's one thing to compete against us fat, lazy, milk-the-clock union guys, and another to compete against an army of foreign labor working for half minimum wage.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> You're right, I've never heard of double check Friday. When I was in the union no one got bonuses from the union. If you get bonuses that's great, more power to you! :clap:


Dude, you realize he's KIDDING, right? "Double Check Friday" is when you get your butt laid off because you are too sick, lame, or lazy to keep your job. That or the boss just doesn't need you anymore b/c the job is over.

You and others seem to be under the misconception that trade unions have some sort of work protection or tenure like Teacher's Unions. We don't. People can and do get laid off at the drop of a hat.

Most of the bitter guys who quit the union are guys who can't keep a job in the union b/c they keep getting laid off.

The stereotype of the lazy, clock-milking union carpenter is about as accurate as the stereotype of the toothless, meth-fueled non-union carpenter - although I've met my share of those so...


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Custrel,
I have never been a supporter of illegal immigrants living or working in this country. I strongly believe that we should secure our borders and enforce our immigration laws. Illegal immigration counts for a large part of our "high health care costs" and gang activity. I do not have a problem with immigrants that are here legally be it on a work permit, green card, or after gaining citizenship. 

No I didn't realize he was kidding as I said I had never heard the term before. Thanks for the clarification. I am at the point with this thread I am going to agree to disagree with regards to the union.

Celtic,
The answer to your first question (post#225) is no, as long as the production output justifies the wages. The answer to your second question is yes I did, but I expected it from western not you.


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## Kuba (May 3, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Next time you're going to be in my area shoot me a PM. If you think your so bad I'm sure we can find a gym with a ring in it. I spend a lot of time hitting the weights just for guys like you that like to run off at the mouth. I won't be needing the claw hammer to defend myself, how about you?
> 
> If you don't want your grammar, spelling, and intellect picked on know what you are saying before you say it. I don't like to ignore lunatics cause if you turn your back to them next thing you know they are blowing up a building to make a point. You're comments seem to place you in that category. As far as the problem with the computer and paragraph formation I apologize for the statement if indeed the issue is with the computer.


:laughing::laughing::laughing: You still live with mommy comments coming next? 

:thumbsup: maken me so hot with that internet flex. Who needs a gym are you a phat bastard? So, your telling me you talk to everyone this way outside of forums eh? :shutup: Far as the claw hammer is concerned, its called a metaphor idiot. Sigh, of all the people ive every known to flap their gums couldnt beat their way out of a wet paper bag. Take your Phat or panzzy arse back to the gym and work on that complex man.. One of these days youll get rude with the wrong dude and you gona eat your fkn teeth kid.


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

custrel said:


> Dude, you realize he's KIDDING, right? "Double Check Friday" is when you get your butt laid off because you are too sick, lame, or lazy to keep your job. That or the boss just doesn't need you anymore b/c the job is over.
> 
> You and others seem to be under the misconception that trade unions have some sort of work protection or tenure like Teacher's Unions. We don't. People can and do get laid off at the drop of a hat.
> 
> ...


I'm ONLY addressing the highlighted and NOT the rest of your post(s)

Some quit because of what they see going on behind the scenes that the rank and file don't see.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

ARI001 said:


> Celtic,
> The answer to your second question is yes I did, but I expected it from western not you.


:laughing:


I felt we needed a quick joke.


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## westernexplorer (Jun 24, 2009)

custrel said:


> Dude, you realize he's KIDDING, right? "Double Check Friday" is when you get your butt laid off because you are too sick, lame, or lazy to keep your job. That or the boss just doesn't need you anymore b/c the job is over.
> 
> You and others seem to be under the misconception that trade unions have some sort of work protection or tenure like Teacher's Unions. We don't. People can and do get laid off at the drop of a hat.
> 
> ...


 
You nailed that one, Brother..... Many's the time I was in a duct bank in the pouring rain in Seattle, running conduit in water up to my knee's and I had wished those stories about lazy, easy money union worker stories were true...... I started in the non-union and I can tell you, I worked harder as a union electrician than I ever did as a non-union electrician. We earned every penny of that package...... They don't get it, because they WANT to believe otherwise.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Kuba said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing: You still live with mommy comments coming next?
> 
> :thumbsup: maken me so hot with that internet flex. Who needs a gym are you a phat bastard? So, your telling me you talk to everyone this way outside of forums eh? :shutup: Far as the claw hammer is concerned, its called a metaphor idiot. Sigh, of all the people ive every known to flap their gums couldnt beat their way out of a wet paper bag. Take your Phat or panzzy arse back to the gym and work on that complex man.. One of these days youll get rude with the wrong dude and you gona eat your fkn teeth kid.


Listen up Nancy, in case you forgot you are the one who came on here with all the Fabien b*tches comments with every other word being an expletive. Then you got your panties in wad when I pointed out that you where using words you didn't understand the meaning of. Then you accused me of hiding behind a firewall and a computer. Now your upset that you got called out. Well if you can't back your smack talking up then shut up. 

The gym and ring comment where made because it's legal to spar in a ring. You don't really want me to hit you without gloves on anyway. I don't believe your "it's a metaphor" statement for one second. Guys like you are two chicken sh*t to stand on their own two feet and usually do hide behind a weapon or their buddies.


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## Point of Views (Aug 21, 2009)

I've just read the last page of this thread and feel that some common sense should prevail.

The unions have made North America strong. When the industrial revolution began, the unions were essential in making a strong middle class in North America, and they struggled doing this. Without the unions this would not have happened and you can see how other nations are not as successful because they lack a strong middle class. This is part of the problem with much of the world economy now. Wall Street, the Big Banks and the politicians have eliminated the strength of unions in todays economy. The unions no longer have any impact, the cream is now all going to Wall Street. Why should hedge fund managers make $100 million + /year? Why should bankers and Insurance Companies pay many billions of dollars in bonuses. This is the real issue.

There are good and bad tradesmen, some are union, some are non-union. I've seen both non-union and union workers who were not well trained, I've seen both ?_#k the dog. They are just people and everyone is different in commitment, abilities, etc. etc. Arguing about the strengths of union vs non-union has no winner. Depending on conditions, there may be advantages of one over the other. For example if you're constructing a major chemical plant, one may want to go either union or non-union depending on the locale and the strengths of either in the area.

Anyway it's certainly not worth fighting about. If we want to fight, let's attack Wall Street, the Banks and the Insurance Industry - they are the ones that have caused such damage and they continue to do so.

Please don't jump on me too hard. I'm not going to fight.


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## rosendosway (Jun 18, 2010)

*union high rises*

I have been in the union for twelve years now and just recentley started my own business. It is true for both sides they have some very good workers. But on one end they have some of the laziest I have ever seen. I worked for twelve years and never got more than a week off a year, usually to go to Mexico to visit my dad. I am sorry but anyone who brags about doing high rise buildings as just a worker is super lame. Usually the buildings go typical after three floors or so and after that it is the same thing over and over again. If you are doing decks, flyer tables , peri etc etc. You are trying to do everything exactly as the last floor. I was a general foreman for five years and even that got boring. Owning your own business is far more rewarding. A lot of union workers don't even really know how to read the prints or rarely get to look at the main prints. They usually split guys up into teams column, walls, and decks. Maybe some architectual wall guys. Either way after a while it is the same **** over and over, and no matter how hard you work you can't make any more money like you can owning your own business.Also there is a crazy amount of son in laws nephews and related people infesting the union.Also when there is a big boom in work they let everybody and their mother in.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Kuba said:


> I think its actually my wives laptop thats messed up, wow and Im using that right now...


How many wives do you have, and do they all share the same lap-top? And, are they signatory to a collective bargaining agreement? Maybe the "International Association of Kuba's Wives, mistresses, girlfriends and escorts"?


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## sirfranky (Jul 28, 2009)

Nice of Rosendosway to bash the very people who taught ya what you know well enough to eventually start your own company. The union is what you make it If You cant read prints they offer free classes for that and any other thing you need. Is that where you learned to read to prints or you still learning that?:laughing:


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## dprimc (Mar 13, 2009)

Justaframer, did you work on that highrise in downtown Seattle that was build by the construction union and is now being torn down after 8 years because the repairs cost more than the demolition, rebuild, and fees paid to residents to relocate?


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## rosendosway (Jun 18, 2010)

*reply to sirfranky*

Yes the union did teach me a lot of things, and yes that is where I learned mostly how to read prints. As far as me bashing it I am not. I just think that it is not for everyone. You can bust your ass all you want in the union but, in the end the guys in the office are the ones who make all the money.Owning your own business you have more control over what you do. So for me it is better. However working in the union there is a lot less stress, so for some that is better. I just don't get why there is union people coming on this site and bashing contractors, isn't it called contractor talk?


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## sirfranky (Jul 28, 2009)

Ok Rosendosway _ You caught me I contract work and I also work Union.. These days that's what you do to survive I just make sure I get my hours for the pension and retirement plan not the mention the health insurance. Someday I might even unionize my company who knows? But I will stand up for the guys who fight for the worker... When I didn't know jack they taught me and made sure I made enough to to pay the rent and have gas money to get to work while friends who were employed elsewhere struggled to make it.. I guess I'm two-sided


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## white8 (Jun 28, 2008)

I own a union shop and the electricians are competent but the wages and benefits are huge and just because I have to pay more doesn't mean the rest of the market does so I make less on any given job than the non union shops. What really pisses me off is that the union can see that the shops in the market are losing their $sses but are unwilling to make any concessions at all. It's great to cut a big check every month so someone can have the most expensive health insurance money can buy when I can't cover my bills and haven't drawn any salary at all for 2010.


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