# Itemizing bid for customers.



## jacselee (Mar 5, 2014)

How do some of you guys layout your bids to customers.

The only number i really like to show is the final bid amount, but customers want itemized bids sometimes. In this case, how are you guys hiding your markups etc.


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

If they start to get demanding, break your single price into two categories... Labor and material. 

That's all they need to know.


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## colevalleytim (Mar 1, 2008)

I don't itemize bids for customers.

If they want the cost of the bathroom, the kitchen, the new bookshelves in the living room, the new french doors to the deck, I'll do that. People do have budgetary constraints and sometimes need to make choices/decisions. 

But the sum of the parts is often grater than the total, I explain set-up costs, permits minimums etc.

But how much is each item? No! A waste of my time and a way to get chiseled down during and after the process. Clients like that are never worth the effort.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

Sometimes I will bid the job in phases.... Break out maybe three or four major portions of the work to give them options and help prevent complete sticker shock from seeing the total bottom line..

I usually lump in certain things that don't quite go together so that they can't get an apples to apples quote from anyone else.


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## kiwiinnorway (Apr 23, 2014)

As said before, if they want it line by line, they are more than likely cheap. Be weary, very weary. They will probably think everything is too expensive and want to grind you down on price. 

The only way to swing them is to do some investigating on the phone. See if they had a budget in mind and perhaps there is something that they could do (demo, pickup rubbish?) that could reduce your total price.


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

I don't do it. Final price, labor and material combined.

If someone wants it itemized, they will start coming back with, "I saw an ad where 2x4 were $xx, and if you get this online it is $xx cheaper."

There are some projects where I break it down in phases. Currently doing a room addition. The customer is also a friend. Wanted to do some himself. As long as he's not in a hurry, I'm fine. Foundation, Rough framing to dried in, siding/soffit, interior finishing, plumbing/havc. All priced separately. Right now we are doing foundation and rough frame. Getting it dried in. After that, who knows. If he calls me in 3 months and says he decided he needs me to do another phase, ok, I'll schedule him in.

It is rare this works out. If he weren't a friend, it might be different. I wouldn't do it if he wanted to do a portion of the work that would slow me down.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

If they want to know where the money is going, I just write down roughly what what each item or category needs in order to fund the job, I build extra in to my "basic construction supplies category " and add my additional profit into the labor side . i like to see 1/3 labor, 1/3 cost and 1/3 profit, and location, distance and complexity get factored in, plus whether I want the job or not. 

I like that most guys on here sense that a breakdown is a sign of a cheapskate ......there are things to look for in customers and not being able to part with their funds is a strong sign.

One of the signs of a mature contracting business is knowing what work and what clients are right for you, in my opinion.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

......and not using the word what twice in a row. I need some coffee.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

I break it down by section. Like this.

Demo - $xx.xx
Insulate $xx.xx
New floors $xx.xx 

And so on. It breaks the price down a bit but doesn't let them know my markup. I've had good results this way.


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

When you break it down, do you let them know, its an all or nothing deal. Just curious.

In the past I would have customers try to break things out. For example, take your price structure above and say, "I'll do the insulation myself -- or I'll hire the plumber myself."

I learned, a long time ago, this is a sure way to loose money.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

The only thing I will break down is when I bill a larger job in portions.

Usually, rough-in and trim. If it's a new customer that I require a deposit, that will be a third invoice.


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## CITY DECKS INC (Sep 4, 2012)

like a chinese menu..
plans/permit 
demo 
roof work w/tbd 
pt deck 
composite 
ipe
3/types of railings. 
mini pergola
grand pergola
water 
electric 
and so 

informed consumers like to make decision with value, upgrades etc. it gets rid of back and forth. customers rarely know what they want an what they can or want to afford.
you make as struggle free as possible. 
thats what a pro does. but then again what do i know I just build stupid deck on stupid roof tops.


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## CITY DECKS INC (Sep 4, 2012)

builditguy said:


> When you break it down, do you let them know, its an all or nothing deal. Just curious.
> 
> In the past I would have customers try to break things out. For example, take your price structure above and say, "I'll do the insulation myself -- or I'll hire the plumber myself."
> 
> I learned, a long time ago, this is a sure way to loose money.


carve out's are not happening.


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## TaylorMadeAB (Nov 11, 2014)

builditguy said:


> When you break it down, do you let them know, its an all or nothing deal. Just curious.
> 
> In the past I would have customers try to break things out. For example, take your price structure above and say, "I'll do the insulation myself -- or I'll hire the plumber myself."
> 
> I learned, a long time ago, this is a sure way to loose money.



I get customers asking if they can do the demo from time to time. I tell them that it's fine by me, but anything they miss will be charged hourly by me. Usually it doesn't end up saving them any money.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

I do allow breakouts. Usually it's painting. Very common around here for people to do their own painting on a project. Demo too, though Taylor I charge extra for what's missed. 

I try to discourage breakouts though.


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## LI-Remodeler (Feb 3, 2015)

Don't break down your pricing where the totals of all categories broken down equal the original lump sum price. 

If you do you will cheat yourself out of money. The cost of setting up property protection, demo container, travel costs, etc.. will be more if you have to perform each category as a separate project. It's always less expensive when you have multiple tasks/projects/etc. to preform at one location. Time management is always easier with the potential for less down time when there are numerous tasks to complete. 

You're not getting the milkman to deliver one quart of milk every day of the week for the same price as 7 quarts all in one delivery.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

LI-Remodeler said:


> Don't break down your pricing where the totals of all categories broken down equal the original lump sum price.
> 
> If you do you will cheat yourself out of money. The cost of setting up property protection, demo container, travel costs, etc.. will be more if you have to perform each category as a separate project. It's always less expensive when you have multiple tasks/projects/etc. to preform at one location. Time management is always easier with the potential for less down time when there are numerous tasks to complete.
> 
> You're not getting the milkman to deliver one quart of milk every day of the week for the same price as 7 quarts all in one delivery.


You missed the point. The issue is not doing the various parts of the job separately. Its a customer wanting you to break down the invoice so they can dissect your costs and beat you up with it.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Unless you're giving an allowance don't separate the labor and materials. 

If you're itemizing different portions of the job bid it as if that is the only portion you're doing. I will sometimes state in my contract that the estimate is based on all work being performed, excluding any portion of the scope of work may increase the estimate.

Back in the day when I worked for a painting contractor they itemized estimates without much thought. A client would just pick and choose, paint one side of a door, problem was that door required purchasing a quart of paint...they just lost money on that door.


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Sometimes you have to break your price up some due to materials selections. The price they see is not my price. It is the price they are paying me to procure the item for them. 

Sometimes there is no way they can make a decision on what door they want, or which cabinets they want without them knowing the cost of the materials. Some projects have budget constraints. Sometimes this means they can figure out the rest of the costs, i.e. only installing a door and I tell them the door they chose costs $x.xx. Simple arithmetic tells them what the 'labor' is. It is rare the client balks or says that it too much, or wants to know where that number came from but it does happen. 

I will not break down a larger project and I do not break down all the associated costs, materials, and factors that make up the difference of the cost of the materials they are aware of and the total project cost. I will walk before that happens as that is a huge red flag.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

jacselee said:


> How do some of you guys layout your bids to customers.
> 
> The only number i really like to show is the final bid amount, but customers want itemized bids sometimes. In this case, how are you guys hiding your markups etc.


Don't worry about "hiding your markup.": Give your prospective customer the information that a reasonable person needs in order to make a decision about hiring you - total price and enough detail (as suggested by CVT and CD) to help them make decisions about scope and budget.

Don't let these quoting conversations become a tug of war or a battle for control. Make a choice about the services that you want to provide, and how you want to present your services, and do it all in a professional manner.


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You had a few problems.
> 
> 1) unaware of the project budget
> 2) didn't clearly outline of scope (what was included in the price)
> ...


No, I very clearly outlined the scope. I was able to help them make an informed decision and they were able to buy a project they could afford and were happy with.

I knew their budget, and I knew what they wanted. I told them they probably couldn't get everything they want with that budget, but we could start there and work to find something they were happy with. 

So, I was able to close a job and get it under contract with a really nice couple after being over their initial budget, and being 10k higher than the other person they talked to.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

AGullion said:


> ......Of course most of you would want to see a breakdown to believe that , wouldn't you ?



Nope. 

I know what I want, and sometimes what I want costs money. If what I want costs me $10k, then I'm willing to spend $10k to get it. I don't give a rodent's rectum how you arrive at that number.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

You don't walk into McDonalds and ask for the burger to be itemized. "I want to see the cost of the lettuce and pickles"!! :no:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Not that Mickie D's doesn't know _exactly _what one lettuce leaf and each pickle slice costs..... to the $0.0001.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

aaron_a said:


> No, I very clearly outlined the scope. I was able to help them make an informed decision and they were able to buy a project they could afford and were happy with.
> 
> I knew their budget, and I knew what they wanted. I told them they probably couldn't get everything they want with that budget, but we could start there and work to find something they were happy with.
> 
> So, I was able to close a job and get it under contract with a really nice couple after being over their initial budget, and being 10k higher than the other person they talked to.


Why not just give then the project they could afford from the start?


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

The snag is we really don't know what people can afford ...


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Why not just give then the project they could afford from the start?



Well, I had to price what was in the plans for one.


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

Im not saying I break stuff down by the penny. Really just by phase.

It's usually like:

Demo: remove x, x, x, etc. $x.xx

Framing: build x, repair x $x.xx

It walks people trough the job, and helps them realize why the final price is what it is, without exposing my costs and giving them a chance to say I can find this tile cheaper here, etc.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

I think the stumbling point on this conversation is how people interpret itemizing. 

If it is line itemizing, I don't do. That would mean part by part, model - part number, etc. I don't do. I tried it years ago and the client simply went line by line and argued about each and every part and how he thought it was too expensive, or , how he had someone else who could get it cheaper. The same goes with separating labor from parts. Once someone knows your labor rate, then you are just a commodity that they can shop for. 

More often than not, HO's and commercial clients that want an itemized parts list, with labor and materials separated out. Or worse, if it's project that has multiple parts -- such as bathroom #1 remodel, bathroom #2 remodel, kitchen remodel, etc. And, they want it all itemized (ie: each part, piece, model, # and so forth).........forget it. Want to shop that bid out 99% of the time, or, want to obsess over each line. 

In our bids and estimates, it is a total project price. Includes labor, materials, equipment, tax and fees. That's it. Now, if it's separate systems going into the same place...like electrical, security, CCTV, intercom, access and so forth. I will give a separate quote for each system with includes labor, materials, tax, etc. And, if I do have to separate it out, I make sure that each part ends up ends up making the total package price more expensive. 

If it's an existing client that we have an ongoing relationship with, I will also include cut sheets on certain specialty items. 

I will definitely not separate labor and materials. On some jobs in the past, in order to be competitive, I went cheap and broke even on some parts, then priced other parts of the project to make up for it. Never again. Guaranteed, the client will pick the No Profit parts for you to do, then hire Uncle Louie, to do the profitable ones.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I had a lead call today that was the step daughter of a client. She called and said she didn't want me to quote the work, just come and do it and charge her whatever. That is a good use of my time. That is productive and profitable.


I had something similar to this once, except the customer said just come do the work, then I will decide what I feel like paying after. I wish that was how it worked, hey let me drive this new car for a few weeks then I will be back to tell you what I think its worth.

I also find a lot of people want their estimates broken down to the exact item as they want to use it as a shopping list to go get the pieces themselves and attempt to do the work. 

I have had people tell me on the estimate they want the part, the part number and where I am getting it from. I have no problem letting people know what type of parts I will be using, such as cisco, ect. but I am not wasting my time to build them a shopping list.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I had a lead call today that was the step daughter of a client. She called and said she didn't want me to quote the work, just come and do it and charge her whatever. That is a good use of my time. That is productive and profitable.


I had something similar to this once, except the customer said just come do the work, then I will decide what I feel like paying after. I wish that was how it worked, hey let me drive this new car for a few weeks then I will be back to tell you what I think its worth.

I also find a lot of people want their estimates broken down to the exact item as they want to use it as a shopping list to go get the pieces themselves and attempt to do the work. 

I have had people tell me on the estimate they want the part, the part number and where I am getting it from. I have no problem letting people know what type of parts I will be using, such as cisco, ect. but I am not wasting my time to build them a shopping list.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

aaron_a said:


> Im not saying I break stuff down by the penny. Really just by phase.
> 
> It's usually like:
> 
> ...


That's not a breakdown.


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> That's not a breakdown.



It's broken down more than "kitchen remodel: $x.xx" 

And as broken down as I care to get. 


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

aaron_a said:


> It's broken down more than "kitchen remodel: $x.xx"
> 
> And as broken down as I care to get.
> 
> ...


But that's not a breakdown. A break down is line item costs and what we have been taking about. You gave the impression that that's what you did, when in reality you did what I said I did.

Did anyone on here indicate they just gave a project cost and that's it?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

aaron_a said:


> One of the first jobs I itemized(or more of a schedule of values as griz said) I landed. I was 10k higher than the other guy, and over twice their budget. The clients saw the breakdown, and immediately started asking what they could live without to get the cost down.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


See that's what you said and what I'm taking about. ITEMIZING.







aaron_a said:


> It's broken down more than "kitchen remodel: $x.xx"
> 
> And as broken down as I care to get.
> 
> ...


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> But that's not a breakdown. A break down is line item costs and what we have been taking about. You gave the impression that that's what you did, when in reality you did what I said I did.
> 
> Did anyone on here indicate they just gave a project cost and that's it?



A couple people did I believe. I was wondering why you were trying to argue when it seemed we were doing the same thing...

But yeah, no way I'm doing a line item breakdown. 


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

aaron_a said:


> A couple people did I believe. I was wondering why you were trying to argue when it seemed we were doing the same thing...
> 
> But yeah, no way I'm doing a line item breakdown.
> 
> ...


See above post. You have a short memory.


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

Cool. Looks like I called something a thing that you call something else.

We done here?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

aaron_a said:


> Cool. Looks like I called something a thing that you call something else.
> 
> We done here?
> 
> ...


I guess then I am still confused. You originally said that you only break it down into category prices and have had some ask to go further but you don't.

Then you said there was one time in the beginning of your business that you itemized a bid and ended up winning it.

I never questioned your original post, just the one that indicated there are times that an itemizing of a bid can help win it.

There was no confusion on terms.


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I guess then I am still confused. You originally said that you only break it down into category prices and have had some ask to go further but you don't.
> 
> Then you said there was one time in the beginning of your business that you itemized a bid and ended up winning it.
> 
> ...



Ah, gotcha. I tend to be a little short when I post from my phone.

That job was one of the first jobs i "broke down" in the way I described above. I.e breakdown of job tasks with the values. I think doing it that way, vs what I was doing before of giving the client the big number, and attaching a separate scope of work, helped me get the job over the cheaper guy because it helped the client understand why their project cost what it did.


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