# Need hourly rate help..



## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

OK, let me see if I can shine some light into this...

Billable hours are just that, productive time in which progress is evident. Pulling fuel in the truck is productive, and certainly your clients should pay for this time, but indirectly. Now that the truck has fuel in it, let's get to the job site before Maj notices we're running late.

So, here we are, framing a remodel for Gordo... but Gordo has a weird-assed double reverse inverted hip, rain catching thing-a-ma-jig roof spec'd for this. So, let's get out the ol trusty construction calculator and do some cyphering.... Who pays for that time? I'm busy trying to figure out how to frame this monster, not actually doing framing. 

But wait! I hear someone yelling that this is PART of framing!, "What part?!", I cry in confusion, my trusty "We-Know-It-All Contractor's Easy Bid Software" just told me I could frame this sucker in 4 hours, but I can't for the life of me see exactly where to start to be sure I meet that deadline. I'll get a cup of coffee and call Gordo for some advice.

OK, Gordo says I can do it if I just frame it from right to left, and upside down, from top to bottom. Now I know how to do it, Who the hell is gonna pay for me figuring it out!?!

The client, that's who. 

Any time, and I repeat, _any_ time you're doing a non-manufacturing task, you will have non-productive, and hence, 'non-billable' time in a job. You can't add a line that says, "head scratching" to your quotes, but you can add in cyphering time to them.

Hope this clears it up some. BTW, Gordo, I quit! I lost my ass on that framing job, took me 3 hours to frame and 1 hour to cypher and I only figured 2 hours to frame and 1 coffee break. Where is my teddy bear?


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

You explained that perfectly D-A.. :thumbup: 

But that's the difference between the way you run you operations & the way I run mine. In your scenario, I would have gotten the plans ahead of time and asked for specs on the addition from Gordo. I would have known ahead of time that the roof had a goofy hand framed section of roof. I would allow the extra time needed to figure out how to frame it in my bid. Obviously it will take more time to hand frame than to just set pre-built trusses. I don't use ANY type of "bid software", because that is for people that have no idea what they are doing. 



> You can't add a line that says, "head scratching" to your quotes,


I don't line item my bids like that!! That is rediculous!!!! For this job I would have the job listed as "frame addition according to plans & specs drawn on ______________ (fill in date)". The price on the bid takes into account the extra time needed to hand frame the roof.


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Double-A said:


> OK, let me see if I can shine some light into this...
> 
> Billable hours are just that, productive time in which progress is evident. Pulling fuel in the truck is productive, and certainly your clients should pay for this time, but indirectly. Now that the truck has fuel in it, let's get to the job site before Maj notices we're running late.
> 
> ...



You can't quit. Remember you signed a non-compete clause with me?

(Psycho shower scene music starts playing):w00t: :laughing:


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

maj said:


> You explained that perfectly D-A.. :thumbup:
> 
> But that's the difference between the way you run you operations & the way I run mine. In your scenario, I would have gotten the plans ahead of time and asked for specs on the addition from Gordo. I would have known ahead of time that the roof had a goofy hand framed section of roof. I would allow the extra time needed to figure out how to frame it in my bid. Obviously it will take more time to hand frame than to just set pre-built trusses. I don't use ANY type of "bid software", because that is for people that have no idea what they are doing.
> 
> ...


Thats how we do it. Always get the plans. I have a story to tell related to this concerning Patels.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

I looked the plans over, but when I got to the part about the roof, the GC whose donuts I was eating spilled coffee on that part. 

I stole the plumber's plans and this is when I realized that I just framed up a Drain, Waste and Vent Hip Roof, with hot and cold running water, and a shower door for an attic vent! Never trust a smiling plumber!:w00t: 

BTW Gordo, I'm gonna be sick tomorrow, by side job is running longer than I thought.


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

*God, you guys are fun ...*

Anyway ...
I have been using 60% productivity to calculate estimates [historically developed value], which is a little lower than 27 hours [68%], but more reflective of reality for me
... there was another thread [which I can't locate right now] that someone gave a plumber's business rate calculator link in.
I found it to be quite useful, and the results reflected my 60% value [based on my costs] when factored out.
Like others have said, you have to charge what it costs, AND the business has to make a living too


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

RobertWilber said:


> ... there was another thread [which I can't locate right now] that someone gave a plumber's business rate calculator link in.
> I found it to be quite useful, and the results reflected my 60% value [based on my costs] when factored out.


That original post is here.


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

Thank You doubleA


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

maj said:


> You explained that perfectly D-A.. :thumbup:
> 
> But that's the difference between the way you run you operations & the way I run mine. In your scenario, I would have gotten the plans ahead of time and asked for specs on the addition from Gordo.


But this was a side job for Gordo! You weren't supposed to know about it! Damn, now I have to work late to make up for being late on this job and to make up the lost time that my 'other side side' job took away from Gordo's side job. 

The only reason I bought that bidding software was because every time I asked what the going rate for framing was, someone told me to buy that software. I should have just bought a computer to install and run it on too, but the check I got from my last side job bounced after the owner questioned if that light bulb really wanted to change and if it really needed to be changed.

In hind sight, I really need to check to see if the power company has pulled the meter or ask if the power company cut the power to the house next time I get a side job for "no light in the bathroom".:w00t:


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