# Customer Does Not Pay!



## PLC-Landscape (Mar 22, 2006)

I installed plant material for a customer of mine and he decided not to pay me, now he's an ex-customer. Here's what happened: He was a regular landscape maintenance client for maybe 4 months when he started talking about installing plants at his business (Signature Fitness in Northern New Jersey) - After going back and forth with design ideas and budget, we agreed on what plant material would be used. I mailed the contract and never heard from him for like 3 weeks until he called me on the status, I replied that I need a deposit and he said ok - so I retained the deposit of $1200.00 BUT never signed the contract (I know, my mistake) - I purchased the plants - did the install - he saw the progress mid-way and said it looks great, finished, billed him 2X and never received payment. Then he calls and says that he thought he was getting different plants (I showed him pictures and he knew what he was getting) - and he wanted to wait until spring to pay me - I said ok but the next day called him back and said that I'd rather have payment now as stated in the contract he refused to sign - Long story short - we exchanged words and I told him I would take him to court or just remove the plants - he said go ahead. - Now, the balance is $1800.00, is court reasonable for that amount without a signed contract, or do I rip out the plants? - I'm a little bull headed and don't want to just let it go, I can't work for free. I'm thinking of removing ALL the plants - and the $1200.00 he paid me was for the design fee, topsoil, fabric and mulch......Advice?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

You can't legally remove stuff you've already installed... 

Looks like you're headed to the magistrate's office, huh?


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

I think You'll be in legal trouble if you remove anything!
go to a book store and pick up a book from nolo press on how to do a small claims court suit yourself. small claims court in Ca is good for up to $7500. like they say "good judgement comes from experiance. experiance comes from bad judgement. "Good luck in court . Drift


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Pay attention to this part of my contract.



30% due upon acceptance of this proposal and the balance is due in draws commensurate with work completed. The materials remain the property of the Contractor until paid in full by purchaser. All invoices are to be paid within ten (10) days from date of invoice. Any Legal expenses incurred for collection will be borne by the purchaser. No retainage allowed.. All terms of this contract are contingent upon strike, accidents, or other causes beyond our control


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## King of Crown (Oct 12, 2005)

*I love that Teetor, I am going to use it!*


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Lots of contracts have been posted here, including mine. Search the archives.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

> and I told him I would take him to court or just remove the plants - he said go ahead.


If he said go ahead do it. Might want to have it in writting.



> The materials remain the property of the Contractor until paid in full by purchaser.


Has this clause been tested in court and in which states?? I like it .


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

I would consider a lien on the property.

If you didn't get a signed contract, there isn't much you can do in small claims court. It will be your word against his. 

Write a letter asking for payment or specific instructions on what he would like. If he wants to have different plants, great, go remove the ones you installed and then send a bill to get prepayment in full on a new contract. Small claims court is not worth the effort yet, IMHO. I would talk with an attorney about that option and his opinion of how to proceed.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

teetor,

the problem here is there is no signed contract. So even if he had that clause, and do check with an attorney as to the validity of that clause superceding state law, it wouldn't matter. 

without that contract, it falls under state law, and here in NJ..."the contractor gets screwed" is the last line of every law involving contractors.


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## PLC-Landscape (Mar 22, 2006)

I do like that clause Teetor. Like I said, it's my own fault because I do have a pretty solid contract that I just didn't push to have signed - and something told me not to work with this guy - I always had a bad feeling about him, but when he gave me the deposit on the spot, it made me change my mind.....lol 

- I'm going to look into the Nolo book - they're pretty good - and explore a few more options before deciding. I didn't think pulling them would be a legal problem for me because HE doesn't have a contract with ME either. So if I pull em when the place is closed and he comes to work and sees no plants, I'd just say that since he didn't pay me for the material, I removed it. Plants? - What plants? - What he did pay for I left (design fees, consultation, topsoil, fabric and mulch) in other words, he paid for the prep work. Sounds good to me, but maybe not to the courts... - -


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

What would happen if you removed the plants becuase he stated he wanted different ones? Of course he would have to pay before the new went in?

Then he can see how ineffective our court systems are


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Quickly look into the filing of a lien!! A lien is time sensitive and does not require a contract.

You did work on the property and planted your shrubs, Because of the material and labor, you now have an interest in the property. If you remove the plants, you may lose your interest in the property.

If you file a lien, you can prevent the sale or eventually foreclose - it takes time and you may not want the property anyway, but you want to be paid for your materials and labor. You also can collect interest.

A lien will prevent the sale of the property, but most importanat, it is a public record AND and others with an interest in the land (banks and any partners) will find out.

It is a powerful tool and can prevent him from getting any future financing or loans.

P.S. - If you want to extend your lien rights go back and do some minor improvement that you can document (have a supplier deliver a shrub and keep the receipt). Since there is no signed contract, it is an improvement to the land.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

I think the lien rule must differ State by State because I have been told it has to be a $5000.00 dollar minimum and that you do have to have a contract. Otherwise you could just file alien on your enemies?

Not saying your wrong,,,just don't think it works that way everywhere?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Rip out the pants = go to jail.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Grumpy said:


> Rip out the *pants* = go to jail.


Yeah, that would be rape....:whistling


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

amazing how 1 little letter makes so much differenc:laughing:


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

*The # 1 SIN, You didn't listen ,and follow your GUTS !*

We've all been there. 
Keep in mind ,us contractors are spread out across the U S .
Consumer laws differ. Here in Calif. NO court will hear a claim from an 
unlicensed contractor trying to recoup money. 
We 're a small father Son repair and remodel co. I'm just starting out myself. This is year 45 in the trades so far. We are lucky we only work for nice folks. We can do this because of my network of good past customers. I've been where you are,and learned. as far as leans ,he may rent this property. My take is He is cagey ,and He never planned to pay you from the get go ! Get some new work from nice folks,
Go to the book store ! 

What do you get ,when you didn't get what what you wanted ?
EXPERIANCE

Good luck Drift


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

*Lein rights*

Lien requirements do vary from state to state.

I have never heard of a requirement over $1000. In most states there is no minmum.

The requirement is that the material or labor must be used in the improvement of the property.

Lien rights were made to protect BOTH material suppliers and contractors. Often a contractor and supplier will work together and the supplier will file a lein of he was not paid in FULL. - 5 or 10% owing on materials will still permit a lein.

If a contractor is paid, the supplier can still file a lien if he can prove the material was used to improve the property. In some cases, the supplier must prove delivery to the site.

Lien laws can be complicated, but a good contractor should know how to exercise and protect his right to be paid for work done. - The contract may get into the quality and terms.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Grumpy said:


> Rip out the pants = go to jail.


Assuming you mean plants....We all know that if you go to jail for this you will be locked up for years. They will probably take your house and vehicles. Might even make your wife hook?

It is a very serious crime and I will suggest you don't do it beacause I could become an accesorry to this crime from my previous post!
I don't want to go to jail


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## King of Crown (Oct 12, 2005)

The main problem is that there is no contract. There isnt much that you can do with out that...


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*Regarding extending your lien rights*

It is against the lien laws in Illinois to fraudulently do additional work just to extend the dates of the end of job for the purpose of initiating a mechanics lien. 

I would imagine, that if the customer signed on for "additional" work to the original contract, that would be sufficient. Here is a possible scenario.

Possibly, you could CYA by backtracking and referencing the original verbal agreement in the "update to contract specifications" or "change order" form that you could submit to get authorized approval for doing this additional work on that verbal contract.

Gee! You might even want to be a nice guy, and give him the first planting of some new product at such a tremendously low price, so as to offer this extra service as your way of extending an olive branch for a peace offering. Make sure it is suitably cheap enough for him not to resist. Make sure that the original agreement is referenced to in the new work order. Also, make sure this token gesture freebie does not cost you an arm and a leg. 

Possibly, by making this peace offering gesture, you may be able to smooth things over with the customer and he would feel justified or even obligated to pay some/all of the monies past due. If he does not pay, then you have potentially legally opened the time frame window on the original contract by providing an authorized extra to the previously understood verbal contract. ***Get your attorneys advice first to clarify if that would in fact extend the time frame.

Always put things in writing. Even if you do not plan on charging for the little add ons we tend to do, but they usually forget about the things like that and take them for granted.

Ed


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## proframe (Dec 23, 2006)

Go ahead an rip them plants out at night.
It's his word against yours. look at it this way, if he files a complaint he's admitting he owes for the work that was done.
Don't let that scum bag beat you down.
Procession is 90% of the law.
I'm not your average bear.
You mess with the bull your gonna get the horn.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

King of Crown said:


> The main problem is that there is no contract. There isnt much that you can do with out that...




He does have a contract just not a written one. Either one, written or verbal are just as good. The problem is when you come to supporting your side of the dispute.
Giving you a deposit indicates there was an agreement made.
Somehow put something together in written form and then look into liening the property. I wouldnt fool around if I was you.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

the deposit should match the sum in the contract so there is your proof along with verbal. Do an intent to lien letter to him, the property owner everyone involved gets a copy. Now you learned an $1,800 lesson sometime we lose alot more than that. Dont rip the plants out you are bordering upon criminal actions. Good luck and lsiten to your GUT!


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## POOLMANinCT (Oct 7, 2006)

deadbeat scum eh? the lowest on the food chain...
AKA a thief...

when i run into these, i send the ususal home-brew letters, when ignored i hit them w/ www.olddebts.com , i get deluxe package w/ the phone call & credit reporting, so far so good...:thumbsup: 


mods this link ok? 

if feel some times a deadbeat thinks they can push an owner operator around, partic on smaller matters, i outsourcing to a third party to light that fire under them..

what irks me about this, if you went to a nursery & loaded up your truck w/ plants you willl get arrested in about 10min.. since the deadbeat in ? had you save him the effort of picking up (and buying!!!) plus digging holes, he is not a thief???


good luck
ray


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

PLC-Landscape said:


> BUT never signed the contract (I know, my mistake) -


this is the second thread ive seen where someone is wondering what to do about someone punkin them on the payment

and they didn't have a contract.

That's part of your responsibility to yourself and your company. Your company needs to be paid for its services. 

why didn't you get the contract signed????


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## PLC-Landscape (Mar 22, 2006)

Yeah, I know - Everything told me to get the contract signed. but the way it went down was after he didn't sign it, he called me like 3 weeks later and we had a long conversation about how I was uncomfortable with him paying late, etc etc. He said that he's been in business for 16 years, he always pays his bills - blah blah - then he said just come down and get your deposit. That's where I should have brought up the contract again, but I didn't - basically he sweet talked me. It was a bad lesson, but it's only my first full season of business, it will never happen to me again - I know that. In fact, I'm going to set it up so I accept credit cards and have the monthly maintenance amount automatically deducted - that should cut down late payers - - but I do have contracts for all my maintenance customers - standard procedure - he just slipped through the cracks like slime......


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## PLC-Landscape (Mar 22, 2006)

Let me post another question - What could HE do to ME if I did just removed the plants?


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Ask your attorney or the police first.

If it is not something you would do in broad daylight if the police did get called, then it probably is not a smart idea.

Either sue for your services and product in small claims court or forget about it and learn to let go.

Don't let one bad apple customer remain in your head. He is still takeng up space there, and I am sure you can be thinking of more productive things to do. 

Either sue or lien or make peace with him and work it out to everyones mutual middle ground satisfaction. 

Then, chalk it up to a learning experience. View it as not making a mistake but something that you can profit from in the future. 

I have never made a mistake (Ha-Ha), but I have had many many learning experiences so far.

Ed


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## PLC-Landscape (Mar 22, 2006)

Yeah - maybe I'll let it go after I let the air out of his tires.......:whistling ------I'm kidding of course......:innocent:


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

PLC-Landscape said:


> Let me post another question - What could HE do to ME if I did just removed the plants?


you installed them and now you're talking about removing them??

For one, he can have you arrested for trespassing ... if not theft, vandalism, anything he wanted to come up with.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

PLC-Landscape said:


> Yeah - maybe I'll let it go after I let the air out of his tires.......:whistling ------I'm kidding of course......:innocent:


Sounds like you at least gotta good sense of humor

The whole thing's your fault, you know that right??


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## PLC-Landscape (Mar 22, 2006)

Yes, technically,legally and professionally its my fault, but _morally_ he's wrong - that's what bugs me. - Live and Learn. - No contract, no job.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*Att-a-boy!*

I'm glad to see you have a good attitude about this learning experience, and also a sense of humor.

Ed


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## Bryan Weaver (Dec 8, 2006)

*There is a contract*

There is a contract, although not a signed written contract. Apparently you got a deposit as well, so the property owner had knowledge that his property was being improved, he made at the very least an oral contract, and possibly by his actions, he may have agreed to the written contract. 

Laws vary by state, so you have to check your area to confirm your rights. 

A mechanics lien may be proper, but would ultimately cost more than the value of your claim. I would go to small claims court and get it resolved there. If the owner gets angry, so what. He should have paid you.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

Mechanics lien first, due to the time limit. The mechanics lien should only cost more if one decides to 'foreclose' on the lien. Which basicly means asking the courts to enforce. After that base is covered then you can do small claims, like perviously mentioned.

Liens are realy very little cost, unless you have an attorney do it.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*Liens*

Mechanics Lien laws vary state to state. It is very simply and free to first notify the party of an intent to lien. The typical fees from a lien placement service range from about $ 95.00 to $ 250.00. In Illinois, the cost to place the lien on your own is the $ 1.00 for a notary fee and the $ 35.00 to record the lien at the county recorders office.

To be able to win a lien claim, either the party will just surrender and pay to remove the cloud on the title to his property or it will go to court. To enforce a lien, a contract must have been undertaken and agreed to by both parties. A written contract is better, especially if it is well defined as to the responsibilities of both parties, but an oral or verbal contract may also hold up. Obviously, there is much more room for error on the interpretation of an oral agreement, each claiming the other party said or meant this or that.

Simplicity does not mean it can be done correctly.

In Illinois, the 2 types of liens that apply to us on this forum are an original or general contractors lien and the second type is a subcontractors lien. Original has legal definitions, but non-legal speak basically means you are the direct contractor working for the homeowner. The Original Lien status applies in this scenario..

To "Perfect" a lien, means to do it properly in a prescribed time-frame. A "Perfected" lien carries additional precedential clout on others who may have a claim to the property, such as a mortgage holder and other claimants not perfected. In Illinois, 90 days to file the lien claim, and it must be Notarized!!! This one dollar task if not done carries great disastrous legal implications. Additionally, a sworn statement, notorized, must also list all material suppliers and subcontractors.

Conversely, a lien that is not "perfected" still carries a high degree of clout, and you have up to 2 years in Illinois to file this lien as an original contractor. You do not receive the precedence in receivorship in this type of lien. Most people in general do not know the difference between the two.

The savvy building owner who wants to defeat your lien claim, can file a demand to proceed with the legal actions. In Illinois' case, that means that the liening party must file suit and commence legal procedures to follow up on the lien claim. If this follow up legal action is not initiated within this 30 day time frame, then the building owner can file to have the lien removed and no attachment is incurred on his property. 

Usually, the threat of a lien will get people to move towards an aggreeable solution. In this case, I feel that this property owner is used to working his way around the law. So be prepared to follow through with legal action. This information is appropriate for another poster who did not get a definitive signed contract prior to starting their work.

Ed


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## JTKoury (Jan 24, 2007)

Get on to one of those court TV shows. I know some chicks that got ripped off with something that involved not having a signed contract. From what I was told, they were going to get money whether they won or not. :thumbsup: I think it was something like $600 though.


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## Mrmac204 (Dec 27, 2006)

well I filed a lien against a house recently  got the form offa the internet - provincial government provides them free- and a very easy to understand manual. My only slight issue was finding the correct legal address ie: lot 42, district of new westminster, plan # #### and that was not so hard to find, at the assessment authority. I then filed that lien at the land title office- cost me five bucks.. no notary, no swearing, no nuttin  its good for one year - the idea is that you now have a year to find the guy and file a small claims action. Here its up to 25g's....
its an updated lien act, only a few years old.
(B.C. Canada)


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## JWDesignCenter (Jan 25, 2007)

I don't know if you have an attorney or not, but I had a client that was refusing payment. One well worded letter from my attorney had them opening their wallet faster than I could blink. It would be worth a shot?

Also, there are companies out there who will collect on a debt, they keep a portion of the debt collected... that may be an option too. you have a contract, yea it's not signed, but a verbal contract, money was exchanged and he let you install the plants..... sounds like an agreement to me.


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