# Sealing Nicotine



## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

The Krud Kutter on the doors removes the better part of it. The nicotine permanently stained what is a low grade, white semigloss I can tell. But only a minimal amount remains after cleaning. I'll spray, plastic on the floor, let sit and scrub clean.

Will wash the doors and trim but the stomp was never painted and the walls are a very cheap absorbing flat. Don't want to wet these that much, so here comes the Kilz, low odor.

Popped open the lids and there is a huge diff between them. About an $8 or $9/gal price diff as well but if it seals as effectively... would rather not have to use a respirator.


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

Gahhhhhhhhh..........mother f.........(pics to follow)


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

Thought I would do a little experiment. In this back bedroom there is this nasty crap on the wall. I roll some smart primer on it (you can see the white spot on pic 2 where the black stain was. I smart primed only that spot). Go set up the sprayer. Run z prime (project manager got it) and shot the room as well as other places next bucket was kilz 2. (More on that later). If you zoom in on the 4th pic. You can see where reg primer slide down some oily spots. But not where the smart prime was.. there was some super grease spots in the kitchen. Where ever I smart primed.......no problems. But anywhere else primered that had a hint of grease slide right down.

So I'm really really impressed with the smart prime!!!

The other places on this frustrate me


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

Did an experiment on the corner of kitchen. Hit about a foot long roll of smart prime (shown near roller to corner) through a stain that aren't up the wall. Krud kutter cleaned the day before.

The yellow square shows were roll of smart prime. The red shows where whole wall sprayed with kilz2. Still slid down the grease stain. And then rolled over face of smart prime test strip.


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't know how much grease stains got to weird places in this project. Like in the hallway up above the doorway. Or half way up a bookcase built in the hallway. And if I showed you a picture of the bathroom corner where the toilet is. You would throw up. And with all the nicotine build up.......sweet mother of Mary! 

I'll see how everything dried on Friday. But I think I found my new best friend primer. Every area that I tried it on ( greasy wall next to stove. Cleaned several times with cleaners and 3 times with krud kutter) the area primed with smart prime no problems. But with other primers rolled off. Heavy dirt stained wall (not cleaned just smart primed over it) sealed it. (Wall around toilet blackened. Stained. Nicotine ) sealed it.

All this was observed while at end of day. Still wet. Will swing by Friday to see the dry results (tomorrow is thanksgiving)


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

Interesting. Part of my original base question, how bout that! 


Happy Thanksgiving to All,

- Art


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Krud Kutter makes a de-glosser/paint prep and it's even more potent than the cleaner. I used some on my own touchup around can lighting in the kitchen. The rings had yellowed, I thought they were plastic but the de-glosser turned them almost white. The cleaner barely made a dent in it full strength.


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

RangoWA said:


> Krud Kutter makes a de-glosser/paint prep and it's even more potent than the cleaner. I used some on my own touchup around can lighting in the kitchen. The rings had yellowed, I thought they were plastic but the de-glosser turned them almost white. The cleaner barely made a dent in it full strength.


That's what I used. Degloss degrease


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

artinall said:


> Interesting. Part of my original base question, how bout that!
> 
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving to All,
> ...


Well my answer was oil base primers until yesterday. Luckily this week I had a project i could test several problem areas (nicotine dirt mold and grease)

I picked up a gallon of smart prime just by chance to seal in some wall damage/wall paper residue for drywall guy to coat mud on wall. He feared mud would fall off if not primed. Local place was out of pva. So I tried smart prime . It did ok on that project.

This was one of those projects to experiment on. I just grabbed half the can from my paint supplies shelf while just for fun. Had no faith in its stain covering abilities. In fact I almost thought it would be a waste of time to try it.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Unger.const said:


> That's what I used. Degloss degrease


I use the regular more than any other. 

Tom


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Every apartment with nicotine damage (regardless of extent of damage) I have ever primed either with oil or shellac and no cleanup prep has looked flawless the next several times I have repainted it over the years.

I fell for the hype of precleaning, but have since learned otherwise. Great way to fluff a bid, but completely unnecessary. If it's remotely questionable that problock oil won't work then Bin Shellac is used.

I get the joy of revisiting my work within 12 months, and have seen the results. 

I am not saying precleaning is wrong, but anytime you add a step you add an area where something can go wrong. I've seen "cleaners" cause more headaches than they have resolved, so I took it out of my process.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Here an example of precleaning gone awry: complex brought in cleaning company to cleanup damage. We oil primed and returned the next day to find this cracking and sliding down the wall.

At first I thought: too much humidity and too thick (off gassing issues). Brought in the paint rep to confirm, and he debunked the humidity as it was an air conditioned apartment and it was working fine. The coating, while thick, was not excessive. Confirmed with a mil gauge @8 mil thick

Solution: scrape all still wet oil paint and skim coat an entire 2 bedroom 650 sqft apartment. We scraped, gave an additional 2 days to finish drying, then rolled mud on all walls, then used a planex to sand back perfectly smooth. Then resumed priming/painting.

2 day job extended into damn near 2 weeks.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

What kind of cleaner did that?


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Probably one of those stupid citrus oil cleaners. Those things just leave slime on everything.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

So first pic. Raw room. 

Second pick smart prime over stain. Rest of room primed with z prime 2 (didn't work)

3rd pic. Full room smart primed and the painted.

There were very few trouble spots after whole room was smart primed. Mostly because some areas had too much spray build up and wasn't warm enough to dry quickly.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

Driftweed said:


> Here an example of precleaning gone awry: complex brought in cleaning company to cleanup damage....


Any idea on what the cleaning company used?


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

I have no idea what cleaning products the "cleaning company" used. And after learning that TSP leaves a residue behind that can affect adhesion, I just stopped cleanup altogether.

Shellac has been proven to save labor and still maintain adhesion/quality work. So I have had no need to go back to using cleaners.

I did try alcohol based primer once, although it worked just as good as shellac the dry time was a little too fast for my liking.


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## Caslon (Dec 15, 2007)

Does Smart Prime dry absolutely flat? I doubt it. A true advancement in stain sealing will be a stain sealer primer that dries absolutely flat. This isn't really currently possible because the stain needs to be "blocked" which requires a harder coat. This means if you "spot" touch up a ceiling stain with today's stain blockers (without priming the entire ceiling), and go over it with ceiling paint afterwards, you will see a "shiner" at that primed ceiling area while the rest of the ceiling looks flat flat (when viewed at an angle to a light source, table lamp, etc). Just remember that. 

Zinsser used to sell an interior primer stain sealer that dried 100% flat. Needless to say the stain area required multiple coats and was good for "light stains" only. I had only modest success with it. At least it dried 100% flat. No "shiner" effect after spot priming a ceiling water stain. The water stain was not that dark.

Shiners when spot priming seriously dark ceiling stains with a stain killer paints will happen. Either do the whole ceiling with the stain blocker, or, hope your customer doesn't notice your "spot primed" areas looking "shiny" on an other wise flat painted ceiling (when viewed at an angle to a light source).


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Just used smart prime on a glossy kitchen. That stuff is great. It is thin, so it runs out easily, but doesn't splatter in the least. It also covered a funky dark mustard color completely. It is now my go-to interior primer.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

Caslon said:


> Does Smart Prime dry absolutely flat? I doubt it. A true advancement in stain sealing will be a stain sealer primer that dries absolutely flat. This isn't really currently possible because the stain needs to be "blocked" which requires a harder coat. This means if you "spot" touch up a ceiling stain with today's stain blockers (without priming the entire ceiling), and go over it with ceiling paint afterwards, you will see a "shiner" at that primed ceiling area while the rest of the ceiling looks flat flat (when viewed at an angle to a light source, table lamp, etc). Just remember that.
> 
> Zinsser used to sell an interior primer stain sealer that dried 100% flat. Needless to say the stain area required multiple coats and was good for "light stains" only. I had only modest success with it. At least it dried 100% flat. No "shiner" effect after spot priming a ceiling water stain. The water stain was not that dark.
> 
> Shiners when spot priming seriously dark ceiling stains with a stain killer paints will happen. Either do the whole ceiling with the stain blocker, or, hope your customer doesn't notice your "spot primed" areas looking "shiny" on an other wise flat painted ceiling (when viewed at an angle to a light source).


That's a good question. I didn't pay attention to the sheen. I know it wasn't a gloss. Maybe a satin or velvet at best. It might have been close to flat. And since I already finished that job I couldn't answer that for sure. 

Vinyl just primed and may not have painted yet so he might have an answer for it.


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## JR-IP (Jun 16, 2019)

I've recently moved from using the Kilz Max to the BIN Shellac. And I really feel it's WAY better. Clients are happy, I'm happy.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

JR-IP said:


> I've recently moved from using the Kilz Max to the BIN Shellac. And I really feel it's WAY better. Clients are happy, I'm happy.


I wouldn't go with a non-solvent based sealer for nico.

Shellac is preferred. Downside is cost and harsh fumes. But, other solvents can work as well. 

S.W. rep recommends their white pigmented synthetic shellac that I've not gotten any feedback on...

The regular shellac of course is derived from the _shellac beetle_. That doesn't sit well with me.


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## stelzerpainting (Feb 27, 2014)

*Not enough respirator filters in the world.*



artinall said:


> I wouldn't go with a non-solvent based sealer for nico.
> 
> Shellac is preferred. Downside is cost and harsh fumes. But, other solvents can work as well.
> 
> ...


We were hired to seal up the framing on some apartment buildings that caught on fire earlier this year. They were stripped down to the studs and we sealed with SW Shellac. Pic below is 1 of 3 spray stations set up in targeted areas. Sprayed 60-80 gallons/day of shellac. Doesn't sound like much til you realize that's just spraying studs & trusses. 

Sherwin's version of shellac did the job like BIN shellac always has, although it was a bit runnier.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

stelzerpainting said:


> We were hired to seal up the framing on some apartment buildings that caught on fire earlier this year. They were stripped down to the studs and we sealed with SW Shellac. Pic below is 1 of 3 spray stations set up in targeted areas. Sprayed 60-80 gallons/day of shellac. Doesn't sound like much til you realize that's just spraying studs & trusses.
> 
> Sherwin's version of shellac did the job like BIN shellac always has, although it was a bit runnier.


 Is that their white-pigmented _synthetic_ or regular shellac? Have yet to use either of theirs. Used Bin shellac decades back.


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## stelzerpainting (Feb 27, 2014)

artinall said:


> Is that their white-pigmented _synthetic_ or regular shellac? Have yet to use either of theirs. Used Bin shellac decades back.


Regular shellac. I've never met a synthetic shellac I can trust.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

stelzerpainting said:


> Regular shellac. I've never met a synthetic shellac I can trust.


 My S.W. rep says synthetic performs equal to synthetic for nicotine. But I look for real world experience. Thanks.


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## stelzerpainting (Feb 27, 2014)

artinall said:


> My S.W. rep says synthetic performs equal to synthetic for nicotine. But I look for real world experience. Thanks.


The synthetic shellac can work but does not perform equal to regular shellac. Synthetic shellacs are actually fairly capable of blocking stains & odors, but lack ability to be applied by brush, (which I almost never do anyways), but their biggest shortcoming is their inability to be dry sanded to powdery-smooth like the original shellac. This can be overcome by wet sanding though to achieve sufficient results. Synthetic also takes a little longer to dry & cure. The one advantage I see with the synthetic though, (besides soap & water cleanup), is the dried film stays flexible, unlike original shellac. 

IMO, people make too big of deal of the fumes you have to deal with when using regular shellac. Being alcohol based, it dissipates quickly with heat & air flow, way quicker than any other primer/sealer. The only thing that makes me gag after prolonged use is having to deal with gallons of ammonia during the cleanup. After several days of heavy use, I felt like a cat was peeing directly into my respirator.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

stelzerpainting said:


> The synthetic shellac can work but does not perform equal to regular shellac. Synthetic shellacs are actually fairly capable of blocking stains & odors, but lack ability to be applied by brush, (which I almost never do anyways), but their biggest shortcoming is their inability to be dry sanded to powdery-smooth like the original shellac. This can be overcome by wet sanding though to achieve sufficient results. Synthetic also takes a little longer to dry & cure. The one advantage I see with the synthetic though, (besides soap & water cleanup), is the dried film stays flexible, unlike original shellac.
> 
> IMO, people make too big of deal of the fumes you have to deal with when using regular shellac. Being alcohol based, it dissipates quickly with heat & air flow, way quicker than any other primer/sealer. The only thing that makes me gag after prolonged use is having to deal with gallons of ammonia during the cleanup. After several days of heavy use, I felt like a cat was peeing directly into my respirator.


 Fumes tend to bother me more than thirty years ago. 

...I would need to brush shellac. And it's extremely rare that I do airless anymore.

Know what you're talking about with the powdery smooth sanding - we used to do this for consistent millwork. Build up and sand back smooth.

Though I considered that more of a primer than stain sealer.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

Wrong. Wrong. WRONG!

This Kilz most definitely isn't now 'Odorless'. 

Caught them redhanded in the act changing over their labeling from "Low Odor" to the bold claim of being outright "Odorless" and both are the same formulation. Yet individually these each sent me higher than Felix. 




Apparently someone wants to cash in on the appeal of marketing. :shifty:


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