# Carpenters are bottom feeders...



## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Brock,

We do have a few nice job signs that we use on our job sites but the truck isn't lettered yet due to cash flow. I had a truck lettered up a few years back and it didn't get one phone call so it fell down on the list of priorities. We are currently working on a mailer at the moment. I was thinking of post cards with Historic Buildings on one side and company info on the other. We'll send them out in three waves over the next two months. We are also going to start running ads in the service section of the few papers that circulate in the higher income neighborhoods and the lake regions.

I just quit R/R and SM for leads on line but will continue with Bidclerk since there are a lot of out of town/state folks that own property up here and I've had the best results with there leads. All good intentions and they have money!

Vinylguy,

I do very little work by the hour, for the most part it is all per project. Some folks up here only want hire hourly, so I do it. If they're not willing to pay the increase, I'll just move on with out them. Two out of four have accepted the 30-50% increase. The labor numbers are what I use to come up with my estimates for projects. Since I've raised them I'm getting nothing but I think I know it's mainly due to my target market. I'm working on that!

Oldfart,

Larry, Daryl, and Daryl is exactly what my competition is up here. Those kind of guys are all over the place! I've been living in Vermont for about 6 years now and still don't know too many people around here. Vermonters are a very close nit group. The ones who have lived here for generations seem to keep a line between themselves and the "newbies". Time is definitely a factor here. Is all of New England this way?


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## skylands (Dec 10, 2005)

_"I do very little work by the hour, for the most part it is all per project. Some folks up here only want hire hourly, so I do it."_

Boy was that a hard thing for me to get use to when I moved up here. I'd much rather work by the project but for some reason, these rural areas are fixed on paying by the hour. I'm still holding fast on supplying my own materials though. I'm loosing some work and I'm sure I'll ease up on that requirement, but so far so good. 

_"The ones who have lived here for generations seem to keep a line between themselves and the "newbies". Time is definitely a factor here. Is all of New England this way?"_

You could buy Joe Smith's property, tear down the house and build a new one and the place will still be "Ole Joe Smith's place"........until you die, then it's your turn. 
This too shall pass.


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## DrewD (Jun 10, 2007)

I live in NH and work in both VT and NH and the biggest problem I see which isn't unique to the two states is number of "carpenters". In the recent years there has been a flood of carpenters/handymen in the norhtern NH/VT area mainly due to the housing demand, now with the market beginning to slow down some are starting to run out of work. Most of these guy worked for larger building companies and went out on their own but now don't have the skill or capabilities to carry them through the rough times. I predict many will head back to work for someone else as that seems to be a cycle around here. You work for someone for about 3-4 years, go on your own when the market is good, go back when its bad. The problem that these guys can cause is they flood the market of builders, giving out low bids because of the lower overhead. Many only have a pickup, maybe a two helpers and thats all. I've seen some houses that these guys work on and there not pretty, cheap is the name of the game. I've said it before, in our area anyone with a hammer and circ. saw thinks he is a general contractor. I would suggest that if you produce good quality work than hang in there, have photo albums to show people of your previous work, give them the numbers of previous clients to vouch for you. Let people know quality doesn't come cheap. 
I realize I got a litle off topic, sorry. But what I'm trying to say is that I find more hack carpenters than plumbers/elect./hvac guys and because of this we carpenters are often taken for granted. There is the same skill needed in any of the building fields, carpentry is just often viewed as a simple skill, anyone can do it. Because of this misconception people feel we should cost less. Happy Building.


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## deckman22 (Oct 20, 2007)

This is a problem for carpenters throughout the entire country I believe, not just in your area. I think a lot of it does have to do with carpenters not having to be licensed as do the other trades ( electricians, plumbers, HVAC) so anyone can call themselves a contractor. Fact of the matter is there is more hack carpenter/contractors than electricians/plumbers/HVAC that do lowball prices. 

I would suggest getting away from hourly work all together. Tell folks you are a contractor & bid jobs as such, per contract only. By continueing to do hourly work you are keeping yourself in that rut & helping folks keep the mindset to hire hourly. 

As far as getting better jobs, stay away from those online lead vultures altogether. Websites are not that expensive & well worth the investment. Do more networking, other tradesmen/contractors, suppliers, ect. Try mailers, they seem to work for some of the guys here & not expensive either.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Kinda screwed when people on this site state that you can become a competant framer in less than 3 months... In my day guys would pull into town with a station wagon, a skillsaw and a dog and they would give them a house to frame. Now you cross the border and as soon as you can say "framer" you are one. Unless you learn to say "drywaller" first or "stucco" or "concrete".


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

Jason W said:


> Oldfart,
> 
> Larry, Daryl, and Daryl is exactly what my competition is up here. Those kind of guys are all over the place! I've been living in Vermont for about 6 years now and still don't know too many people around here. Vermonters are a very close nit group. The ones who have lived here for generations seem to keep a line between themselves and the "newbies". Time is definitely a factor here. Is all of New England this way?


 I really don't think all of New England is this way,maybe just the smaller towns.
I live in a town with a population of under 15,000 people,and about 2800 residential households.It's typically blue collar,except for the lake area where homes average from $400,00-$1,500,000.
Getting into the upper income area is tough ,as most homes are used as second residences and the owners are only here for part of the year.
I have some friends that are in the local Rotary Club (Local Professionals)that have turned me on to good leads.
I might suggest seeing what groups are active in your area or attend town hall meetings to get familiar with the locals.
Besides the Rotary,we have a Downtown Merchants association that secures grants for store front rehab,and there are grants available for residential rehabs through a program called "Small Cities Block Grants".

What's the population there and where is the nearest City.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

The population in the town I live in is about 1100 (no I didn't forget a zero). It's about 15 miles in any direction till you hit the next town of 1000 people. The closest cities (if you want to call them that) are Rutland and Manchester both are about 30 or 40 miles away. Theres money in Manchester and an over abundance of low ballin' hacks in Rutland. The people with the money in between are mostly out of state folks. They don't tend to spend there time interviewing Contractors while there here visiting, they seem to use the internet when they get home. Thats why I can't drop the on line leads all together.


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

Jason W said:


> The population in the town I live in is about 1100 (no I didn't forget a zero). It's about 15 miles in any direction till you hit the next town of 1000 people. The closest cities (if you want to call them that) are Rutland and Manchester both are about 30 or 40 miles away. Theres money in Manchester and an over abundance of low ballin' hacks in Rutland. The people with the money in between are mostly out of state folks. They don't tend to spend there time interviewing Contractors while there here visiting, they seem to use the internet when they get home. Thats why I can't drop the on line leads all together.


Well, it's always going to be tough for you in such small markets. Maybe it's time pack up and try it in a larger market. I would say minimum 100,000 population. I would think that in a town of 1100 there would only be a handful of jobs available every year and you would prolly need to sell all of them to keep your head above water.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

Jason W said:


> The population in the town I live in is about 1100 (no I didn't forget a zero). It's about 15 miles in any direction till you hit the next town of 1000 people. The closest cities (if you want to call them that) are Rutland and Manchester both are about 30 or 40 miles away. Theres money in Manchester and an over abundance of low ballin' hacks in Rutland. The people with the money in between are mostly out of state folks. They don't tend to spend there time interviewing Contractors while there here visiting, they seem to use the internet when they get home. Thats why I can't drop the on line leads all together.



YOW!!
Your in the middle of nowhere there!
I feel for ya Jason,but you need a bigger market.
As far as the on-line ads I'd think about using an easier to read font on your website if you link to it in your ads.


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## orson (Nov 23, 2007)

*Demographics*

Take this with a grain of salt because my business is pretty new....

I just completed writing my business plan and part of doing that was looking at demographics. Can you tell me how many single family houses in your service area are worth over 200k? How many household incomes are over 75k? How many homeowners were in their home less than 16 years? What local magazine is read by 100k+ income households 35 to 54 years old who are 95% homeowners? This information is highly relevant to your business and for the most part it is free. When you become a small business person of any type you put on many hats, and one important one, arguably the most important, is that of sales/marketing.


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## W-Tinc (Feb 15, 2008)

I think the best three pieces of advice in this thread are move to a bigger market, only work by the job, and specialize, in that order lol.

I lived in an area similar to yours for alot of years. Had a good reputation, lots of refferals, worked my way in with alot of the influential locals, and stayed poor.

In a small rural area there are always alot of people who will work cheap, and unfortunately alot of them will do a good job. Not to mention you can never go to hooters or texas roadhouse .


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

W-Tic said:


> Not to mention you can never go to hooters or Texas roadhouse .


That's it! I'm out of here:laughing:

Thanks for the advice on the web site oldfrt. I've noticed my eyes were getting crossed a few times when I proof read some of it. I wasn't sure what it was. I'll get that fixed tonight. It's not out in the search engines yet, still some tweaking to do as you've pointed out one item already.

Orson, Thats great advise. I have a very good idea of what the demographics are in the little towns around me are, but I've never broken it down statistically. There are a lot of older folks in this area trying to get by on SS and having a hard time and then there is the working class. Neither of these groups could afford to have a nice new kitchen put in or an addition. There really is only to other groups that could do some work that would be up my alley. The few wealthy locals that lived here most there lives and the out of state folks coming in to retire or to buy a play house for the summer. I do need to see how big my market is around here with numbers and not guesses.

I have this feeling that I'm going to need to get out of here. There isn't even enough opportunity around here for my wife to find work. She's been looking for over two months with no luck at all. She just finished getting her associates in Business Administration so that it would open a few more doors, but there's nothing out there right now. I just hate to sell our house in this market, but I guess if we do this quick enough I can buy in this market as well and make out just fine in the long run.

I've got a lot to think about for sure. Not sure if I'm up for starting another business in a new place again if we go that direction. May just get back in as a P/M or Super for a large commercial outfit or a healthy Residential company that does restoration to old homes.

Keep your eyes on the swap section, you might see some really good deals there soon:laughing:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

If you end of moving, I would definitely work for someone else for awhile first. Give yourself a chance to get the lay of the land.

You can always test the waters by doing some side stuff if you want to...get your license/ins. for the year and be able to learn the area.

If you're flexible in where you might be moving to, obviously more heavily populated areas have to be tops on the list, preferably an area that has a lot of _new_ people moving into it on a regular basis.

That way at least not everyone you run into is already entrenched in the community and will give someone from "away" a shot at their project. 

I know it's no fun always wondering where your next project is coming from, especially if the wife is looking at the same time. Good luck.

J


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Sorry to drag this one up again, but this email I got today is a perfect example of how people don't see the value of a good carpenter.

This customer came through service magic two times in one month. The first time she never returned a call, the second time she changed her info slightly and I git it again.

This is the third and last estimate she will get from me. It is a poorly built addition to an old barn that she wants custom made doors for the car port openings:

Hi Nancy,

Thanks for your reply.

The barn door openings will require some additional framing so that the new doors can be properly installed and so they won't drop or shift over time. The cost for this would be $400.00 per opening which would include all materials and labor for the finished openings. 4 doors will be custom made for the two openings so that it resembles the existing door above on the original part of the building. Each door will cost $350.00 per door to make and install. This would include all materials, hardware, shop time and installation. Paint is not included in this price. We can recommend several good painters for this project if you wish. The total for this project would be $2,200.00.

Her:

Dear Jason:
We are going to get some other prices to do this job and will get back to you if your services are needed.
thank you
nancy

Me:

Hi Nancy,

There will always be someone cheaper out there. When you consider that regular garage doors are about $1000 each installed, opener not included, the prices for custom made doors that I've proposed are about as good as you can get from a competent carpenter. When you do find someone cheaper to do this, I'm sure the doors will work fine for a while, next year when they no longer open and close right and you're unable to find the new number for the person to come out and fix them, we'll be glad to come out and do the job right for you.

We do not compete on price. We are knowledgeable in our craft, we price our projects accordingly. There are far to many hacks in this trade that will not take all the steps to do a proper job and too many people out there who will hire them because there price is the lowest. We prefer to offer good, lasting work as our past customers can testify to. This doesn't happen by competing with the uninsured and the unemployed. In short, you get what you pay for. 


Good Luck,

Jason E Whipple
General Manager
New Venture, LLC
118 New St.
West Pawlet, VT 05775
(802) 645-9896 office & fax
http://vtrenovations.com/


I'm done entertaining price shoppers


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Nice response.....and I would certainly encourage you to forget how to quote "by the hour" rates, at least until you are firmly established. Every job I do is a bid, and customers do not dictate my bids. I have had one large customer that I sent a crew out for nearly every day, and while it was nice for cash flow, bottom line was getting undercut by a guy who had no idea how to bid.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

jason, hang tough, alot of what you are experiancing is connected with 1 year in biz, if you want it bad you will figure it out, the same way many of us have. you sound like you have a good work ethic, this will pay off, eventually. as far carp rates vs plumber, here is part of the reason. most people are ok with the 60 per hr plumber, because it is typically a 1 or 2 day visit. they can justify the $, its only a few days. we roll in and set up camp for weeks, or months, this equation is far more disturbing to the client, so it goes. there is kind off a secret handshake, and its not that we dont want to share it, you kind of have to figure it out through trial and error.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

service magic is junk and they perpetuate the myth that all contractos are the same so buy on price. I would have told her thanks but no thanks to the 2nd bid.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

kevjob said:


> service magic is junk and they perpetuate the myth that all contractos are the same so buy on price. I would have told her thanks but no thanks to the 2nd bid.


I'm learning:sad: I've made up my mind to stop using them and others similar. I'll let someone else have a bad year this year:jester:. I did get two good customers from them, I'll count myself lucky for that and get out now!

I had to say no to another one this week when they found someone cheaper to do some framing but still wanted me to do the trim work. I was lined up to start the job and they pulled out the framing due to price. The funny thing is, it was the same guy that screwed up some stuff I had fixed a few weeks before this work.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Jason get a good website with seo and ad words campaign and your leads mnay not go up but the quality of the leads will 10 fold.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Are you saying my web site isn't good?


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