# How long to measure and come up with a painting price?



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

My question starts from all these painters taking a week or longer to send a bid to their prospects. 

It may take me 1 day to 3 days to paint most of these jobs I bid and the prospects say things like we are waiting on billy to send his bid still. When I ask them when he came out they may say 1 week ago or 2 weeks ago. I always go ahead and tell them they don't need his bid, let's sign you up, I will paint this whole job in 2 days if it took me longer than that to give you a price it would be a little non professional possibly or just plain mean, let's sign you up today they obviously don't want you as a customer like I do.:w00t:


----------



## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Well...I don't take a week. More like a few days.

Would "Thanks for coming over, let us know when you can start" count as a closing?

I've been a referral-only business since 1980. I never really kept track of any "closing rate"...but the estimates I went on and didn't get the job, I can probably count on my fingers and toes.

Out of the regular clients I have, about 50% don't ask for a contract, or even how much I'm gonna charge. I give them a verbal ballpark anyhow though..just to reduce my own stress.

I don't have a web site, I'm not in the phone book, I don't have anything written on my truck.

I've also never been sued, not been paid, or asked to leave anyone's house...'cept for maybe my in-laws.

Who knows, A slick salesman like you might even be able to steal some of my clients. But you won't get a chance if they don't call anyone but me.


And of course this is the internet..so I can claim whatever I want. Don't believe any of it if ya want... don't matter to me.


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

That makes perfect since,

If you don't advertise then all your work is word of mouth, on word of mouth jobs you should land 98% with a small company or your doing something wrong. 

Also it depends on the size of the company though in many cases, how many in your company are painting? If it is just you and one guy then yes, you should land 98% of your estimates because your over head will be very low and you can make good money. I think you can agree that you would have to charge a lot more and maybe way more than you would feel comfortable with to your customers if you had big ads and trucks and 8, 15, or 30 painters.

Edit to add below:


> Who knows, A slick salesman like you might even be able to steal some of my clients. But you won't get a chance if they don't call anyone but me.


I would not steal a job from any painter, I assure you I do charge more than most because I promise more than most and I am usually the only person estimating my jobs as well. Oh, and no that was not a close, that is so bad, I need to puke, really how much harder is it really to go ahead and work them up a bid and ask them if they want to buy now.


----------



## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

HA..didn't mean to make ya sick, Mr. Mike!

Actually...I don't really feel like I'm "selling" anything. More like they're asking me to paint something...and I'm say "ok". 

At 50 years old, I'm satisfied with my lot in life. I'm certainly not rich, but I don't have to wait until "payday" to get groceries either.

I like not having to work 40 hour weeks too.

I work all by myself. I had at least one helper up until about 8 years ago. While there are certainly times I miss having someone else around, I'll never go back. I go to work when I want, and I come home early when there's a ballgame I wanna see (or when I get tired/fish are biting).

BTW
I kinda had this same talk w/GeorgeZ awhile back.

Anywho..

I will say, I believe you are on the right track to "financial success" in this industry. And I certainly wish it for you.


----------



## NAV (Sep 5, 2008)

For residential quotes you should be able to submit it within 1 to 3 days. Any longer is not necessary unless you think that the homeowner is just shopping. 

The only reason i will hold a quote is if I think I can get last look at a big job (small jobs don't have much room to move). I explain to my customer that I put a lot of time and effort in to the quote and would like the opportunity to lower my price if it is close to a comparable quote. I get last look maybe 30% of the time. It also helps to compare apples to apples and explain why my price is so much higher. 

Commercial work I hold sometimes if I think that someone else is getting last look. I have bid jobs and not been awarded the project to find out later that they used my specifications and went with another company. I am sure it has happened to everyone. 

Timing is huge in my opinion


----------



## paintr56 (Feb 4, 2005)

Mr. Mike said:


> My question starts from all these painters taking a week or longer to send a bid to their prospects.
> 
> It may take me 1 day to 3 days to paint most of these jobs I bid and the prospects say things like we are waiting on billy to send his bid still. When I ask them when he came out they may say 1 week ago or 2 weeks ago. I always go ahead and tell them they don't need his bid, let's sign you up, I will paint this whole job in 2 days if it took me longer than that to give you a price it would be a little non professional possibly or just plain mean, let's sign you up today they obviously don't want you as a customer like I do.:w00t:


Mike I like your response do you mind if I use it? 95+% of my bids are left with the client before I leave. If I am going to close it usually happens then maybe 25% of my closings happen later. I close about 1 in 3. How does your closing rate compare if you don't mind saying. It is nice to see how others do it. 

Jim


----------



## paintr56 (Feb 4, 2005)

Steve, my work schedule is a lot like yours. I think that is the biggest perk of my business. It is nice to hear some one else value that ability. I keep trying to get my hours down to a thousand a year but 1100 is about the best I can do and maintain my life style.

Jim


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Im a killer a selling paint jobs, I always close while on my first appointment with resi repaints. Used to drop a bid off and tell them to call me, I landed a little less than 1/3rd now I do the one call close and I close over 80%


----------



## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

paintr56 said:


> Steve, my work schedule is a lot like yours. I think that is the biggest perk of my business. It is nice to hear some one else value that ability. I keep trying to get my hours down to a thousand a year but 1100 is about the best I can do and maintain my life style.
> 
> Jim


Hey, 56

Nice to see another old fart still pluggin' along.

Funny, sometimes at the paint store, I'll run into this guy I used to work with back in the 70's..and I'm always amazed at how GD old he got :w00t:


Sorry, Mr. Mike...I'll give you yer thread back now.


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

> Sorry, Mr. Mike...I'll give you yer thread back now.


You take the floor anytime and I will sit and listen. These are all your threads.:clap:


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Mr. Mike said:


> I always go ahead and tell them they don't need his bid, let's sign you up, now, right now!! TAKE MY PEN LADY AND SIGN MY CONTRACT BECAUSE I SAID NOW!! NOT LATER, YOU DON'T NEED YOUR HUSBAND'S APPROVAL....HERE PRETEND I AM YOUR HUSBAND AND I SAID O.K.!!! SIGN IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


lol.


----------



## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

Mike I usually give the bid on the spot, and go over it with them, 95% of the time, usually less then a hour for the whole process. 

dave mac

ps
Overhead for a single man shop is usally a lot higher then a big shop, percentage wise. Causing the one man shop to actually have to charge more then the big company. The big company can spread out the overhead a lot more then the one man shop.


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

> ps
> Overhead for a single man shop is usally a lot higher then a big shop, percentage wise. Causing the one man shop to actually have to charge more then the big company. The big company can spread out the overhead a lot more then the one man shop.


I know lots of one man shops in my area, 1 truck, rented house, cell phone. Not much over head there.


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Mr. Mike said:


> I know lots of one man shops in my area, 1 truck, rented house, cell phone. Not much over head there.


Sounds dreamy!

Especially when so many "top heavy" companies are going under all over America. Imagine the freedom of renting a house (no lopsided mortgage), 1 van (insurance and gas expense is minimal), and 1 cell phone (I will call you back when I can).

I would imagine that type of painter is relaxed when he proposes a bid, and doesn't need the hard sell to win every bid he throws out.


----------



## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

Mr. Mike said:


> I know lots of one man shops in my area, 1 truck, rented house, cell phone. Not much over head there.



Mike what I mean is lets say a company with five guys. The owner wants to make 70,000 a year, his rate will be less then a one man shop who wants to make 70,000 a year, and if you figure the percentage of overhead spread with five guys its going to be less then with one guy. No big deal either way.


----------



## Dorman Painting (May 2, 2006)

If it's a repaint, nine out of ten times I give them a ballpark figure on the spot. From there I decide whether they're serious enough about wanting me to do it, then I'll write a contract. Many times after I shoot them a ballpark figure, they react positively and I close the deal. If I get the typical "we're getting two other quotes" I normally don't even write a contract. I'll let them call me back if they need my service, I don't like to be priced out though. 

I know I'm not as pushy as you Mike, but it seems to work for you which is great. That's just not really my personality, but most of my work is word of mouth, so the sale is much easier. I've noticed lately that I'm bidding work much cheaper than years past, I almost feel like I'm bidding some jobs at 1999 levels. This economy has made bidding work and actually closing the sale more dicey IMO.


----------



## Dorman Painting (May 2, 2006)

Dave Mac said:


> Mike what I mean is lets say a company with five guys. The owner wants to make 70,000 a year, his rate will be less then a one man shop who wants to make 70,000 a year, and if you figure the percentage of overhead spread with five guys its going to be less then with one guy. No big deal either way.


Dave, I just don't think you're correct here. A larger company would naturally have more costs than a one man show. They would have more vehicle costs, insurance costs, fuel costs and more advertising costs. Not to mention their labor burden, it would be ridiculously higher than a one man show. 

The only way a large company can spread their cost out is by committing to a much bigger work load. The one man show can pull in 70 grand off of much smaller annual sales than the guy with five workers.


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Dorman,
Word of mouth is way different than an advertised lead. I don't think all people really want to get more estimates it is just a sounds good reason to get you the contractor to leave, I try and over come that anytime I can and I have landed great jobs from overcoming that objection. I know you say it is not your personality to be pushy and I don't think I'm pushy just determined and always moving forward. I would be more than happy to take you along on a field trip to an estimate one day or even go with you on one of yours to point out some easy pointers to close deals and hear some pointers from you on what went down. I would do that to have one more good competitor.


----------



## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

Dorman Painting said:


> Dave, I just don't think you're correct here. A larger company would naturally have more costs than a one man show. They would have more vehicle costs, insurance costs, fuel costs and more advertising costs. Not to mention their labor burden, it would be ridiculously higher than a one man show.
> 
> The only way a large company can spread their cost out is by committing to a much bigger work load. The one man show can pull in 70 grand off of much smaller annual sales than the guy with five workers.


Doorman

The smaller guy can pull in 70 grand off a much smaller overall gross annual sales, but he has to have a much higher sale price (man hr rate), then the big guy.

I will try to explain better, its stuff I learned from Harry and Sigco.
smaller contractors think that the bigger contractors have more overhead then them. The overall number for the bigger contractor is larger, however it is a much smaller percentage, due to the fact the bigger guy is able to spread it over a larger number of people. 

Sigo puts it another way as well.
A larger contractor makes a larger net profit on sales at $55/hr then the samller contractor can at $65/hr

dave


----------



## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

Mr. Mike said:


> Dorman,
> Word of mouth is way different than an advertised lead. I don't think all people really want to get more estimates it is just a sounds good reason to get you the contractor to leave, I try and over come that anytime I can and I have landed great jobs from overcoming that objection. I know you say it is not your personality to be pushy and I don't think I'm pushy just determined and always moving forward. I would be more than happy to take you along on a field trip to an estimate one day or even go with you on one of yours to point out some easy pointers to close deals and hear some pointers from you on what went down. I would do that to have one more good competitor.


Mike 

whats your closing percentage from advertising leads?


----------



## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Dave Mac said:


> Doorman
> 
> The smaller guy can pull in 70 grand off a much smaller overall gross annual sales, but he has to have a much higher sale price (man hr rate), then the big guy.
> 
> ...


I agree with Dave 100%.

The illusion of no overhead happens as the one man show guy
usually has no owner's salary in addition to field wages.

Another example:
one vehicle insurance over over 1700 manhours
is way more expensive than 3 vehicle insurance rate divided over 17,000 man hours.
Do the math and you will see.
If you are one man working for wages, that doesn't count.
In other words:
I would make more profit with $38 per hour than a one man show at $55
And I get to be more competitive.


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Dave Mac said:


> Sigo puts it another way as well.
> A larger contractor makes a larger net profit on sales at $55/hr then the samller contractor can at $65/hr
> 
> dave





George Z said:


> I agree with Dave 100%.
> 
> I would make more profit with $38 per hour than a one man show at $55
> And I get to be more competitive.



Where is the "deep" logic in this way of thinking? 
Unless you count all of the babysitting of your guys, the quality that varies from job to job due to multiple painters with varying skill levels, and the worst is all of issues that employees bring to you daily...

Your imagined profit begins to dwindle with each issue.

We both make the same amount at the end of the day. The only difference is I have much less drama.


----------



## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

> Unless you count all of the babysitting of your guys


I hire baby sitters, call them job managers




> the quality that varies from job to job due to multiple painters with varying
> skill levels,


No quality issues.
Lots of "one man" hacks out there too, I am sure you agree



> and the worst is all of issues that employees bring to you daily...


Variety is the spice of life :thumbsup:



> Your imagined profit begins to dwindle with each issue.


you sure?



> The only difference is I have much less drama


I love the drama!


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

George Z said:


> I hire baby sitters, call them job managers


I prefer to be near the action myself to ensure a strict level of quality.



George Z said:


> No quality issues.
> Lots of "one man" hacks out there too, I am sure you agree


Very true.
Consistency in appearance is important for hacks too.
When one cut in is clean and another is wavy because more than one painter touched the walls...that stands out more than a consistently crappy paint job.



George Z said:


> Variety is the spice of life :thumbsup:


I bet that isn't how you feel when a worker(s) calls in with _another_ lame reason for not making it in on time.



George Z said:


> you sure?


It may not reflect in your number$, but it does reflect in your health and sanity. 
Both of those are worth more to me than money.



George Z said:


> I love the drama!


Like a swift crotch shot from a thoroughbred horse.


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Mr. Z,

Always good to read your posts.

I don't disagree with the overhead over all because I completely understand the break down over each person working, but we all know that most of the one man bands is getting paid almost 100% cash money, paying no taxes, no insurance, wife probably works and most of these guys keep a pretty good drug and drinking problem. So would that be lower over head when you break it down like that. Meaning this guy can charge less than $38.00 per hour.


----------



## chris n (Oct 14, 2003)

but we all know that most of the one man bands is getting paid almost 100% cash money, paying no taxes, no insurance, wife probably works and most of these guys keep a pretty good drug and drinking problem. 


Pretty bold statement( MOST OF), care to back that up with any statistics?


----------



## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Mr. Mike forgot to mention that given the chance, we pee in our customers pickle jars too.


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Pretty bold statement( MOST OF), care to back that up with any statistics?

I could google around, but do I really need to.


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Mr. Mike said:


> Mr. Z,
> 
> Always good to read your posts.
> 
> I don't disagree with the overhead over all because I completely understand the break down over each person working, *but we all know that most of the one man bands is getting paid almost 100% cash money, paying no taxes, no insurance, wife probably works and most of these guys keep a pretty good drug and drinking problem.* So would that be lower over head when you break it down like that. Meaning this guy can charge less than $38.00 per hour.


Low blow.

Is that one of the things you add to your amazing sales pitch to close the deal...running down other companies?


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Mr. Mike said:


> I could google around, but do I really need to.


No Mike, we already know you're only frustrated about not meeting your overhead for the month and letting off some steam.


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

*That was not meant as a low blow.*

Let's put it this way, if I had to go back and do it all over for some mistake or what have ya I would just collect cash money.


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I am frustrated that I did not close that couple I met with last night, I told them they were messing up my statistics, lol.


----------



## bobbyacro (May 11, 2008)

I didnt know I had to account for my drug addiction when determining my overhead, now I have to go recalculate. Do I have to factor the individual type of drugs or can I just lump them together? Would a 15% mark-up on my drug use be fair to charge a customer? Do I have to let them know about the chronic masterbation and hooker murders or should I just work those costs into the cost of materials?


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

bobbyacro said:


> I didnt know I had to account for my drug addiction when determining my overhead, now I have to go recalculate. Do I have to factor the individual type of drugs or can I just lump them together? Would a 15% mark-up on my drug use be fair to charge a customer? Do I have to let them know about the chronic masterbation and hooker murders or should I just work those costs into the cost of materials?


I really hate liking you.

:shifty:


----------



## bobbyacro (May 11, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> I really hate liking you.
> 
> :shifty:


Then youre no different than any other girl I have ever met. (joking, just relax)


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

I recommend that you continue to work for yourself, heaven help the man that hires you...

:laughing:


----------



## bobbyacro (May 11, 2008)

I hire my employer, they work for me even though they own everything.


----------



## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

WisePainter said:


> I really hate liking you.
> 
> :shifty:


:laughing:


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

> but we all know that most of the one man bands is getting paid almost 100% cash money, paying no taxes, no insurance, wife probably works and most of these guys keep a pretty good drug and drinking problem.
> 
> 
> Pretty bold statement( MOST OF), care to back that up with any statistics?


I can back everything up but the drug/drink part with just this one thread right under here. :w00t:



http://www.contractortalk.com/f8/time-material-bill-complaint-56494/


I feel I may have been a little harsh sounding:notworthy, I really don't mean to sound in a way that is insulting to the one man painters or any small company, We can't stick everyone in any specific category; I get hit once a week with aren't all painters drunks. I am a painter and know lots of them I don't shy from competition and I even encourage it. I love the industry I am in and except everything that comes with it.:clap:


----------



## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

WisePainter said:


> Where is the "deep" logic in this way of thinking?
> Unless you count all of the babysitting of your guys, the quality that varies from job to job due to multiple painters with varying skill levels, and the worst is all of issues that employees bring to you daily...
> 
> *Sounds like you tried to expand and had no luck, Im living proof you can put crews togeather that you dont have to babby sit, and do a great job. I admire a one man shop, because I have done it, and its way way harder then running a crews imo, no way do I want to work all day, do estimtes, go to the paint store for materials, consult with clients, and paint all day. And what happens if you get hurt and cant go to work, no one to make you money, like I said I admire a guy willing to take all this on with out no help. Their is no right or wrong way, I do not insult your way of work, Please do not insult mine.*
> ...


Please let me be real clear, I have tons of respect for a one man shop, I have done it, and know for me its a lot harder working that way then running a crew, but I get tired of the closed minds that some of them have, and the insults that are thrown out here by wise are just un called for. And are wrong.

G-day
dave


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

*Dear Wise you are so contridicticting*



> I rely on 100% word of mouth and get 100% of the contracts.
> I spend a bunch of money on different types of advertising and get maybe a 12% return on it...while spending 100% of my $.


I see you say you rely on 100% word of mouth but you spend money on advertising. How does that make since?:w00t:


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Mr. Mike said:


> I see you say you rely on 100% word of mouth but you spend money on advertising. How does that make since?:w00t:


*sense

I buy business cards which are handed out to customers strictly for referral purposes.
That is the extent of my spending, maybe $40.00 every year.
I would hardly consider that $pending money on adverti$ing.


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Do you do more than 26 jobs a year Wise? Not measuring you up or anything, I just can't see you doing many jobs with just word of mouth.


I would normally go edit that since...



> *WisePainter*: I spend a bunch of money on different types of advertising





> *WisePainter: *I buy business cards which are handed out to customers strictly for referral purposes.
> That is the extent of my spending, maybe $40.00 every year.
> I would hardly consider that $pending money on adverti$ing.


I wondering what one to go with?


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Mr. Mike said:


> Do you do more than 26 jobs a year Wise? Not measuring you up or anything, I just can't see you doing many jobs with just word of mouth.




I am a solo painter...do the math.




Mr. Mike said:


> I wondering what one to go with?


1) Learn to cut and paste a post, it is simple and allows your audience to reference the *original* post.

2) Seriously, you dug that up?

3) I have dropped everything lately for a more streamlined "advertising" method because I am getting more word of mouth work than advertising leads.

4) lol.


Are you showing me attention because I mocked the spilled paint can on your truck?
lol @ spilled paint when advertising a painting company...
It's like an airline advertising with a crashed airplane.

Are we even now?

:w00t:


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Not to mention I moved here a little over 2 years ago with nothing and I have been pulling at least $40,000 a year so far. 
2009 will top that.

yay me!


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

With that one we are even, :w00t: Good game.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> 1) Learn to cut and paste a post, it is simple and allows your audience to reference the *original* post.


Not when the *original* post has been edited.


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Get off the editing balls, this is not English class.


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Tinstaafl said:


> Not when the *original* post has been edited.



Excuse me? 
I edit to correct spelling, and punctuation, or to *add* a thought.
Back peddling is not something I have ever been very good at, I stand behind my posts.

:thumbsup:


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> Excuse me?


Not you, Wise.

The edit feature is there to be used as you do. However, it makes it all too easy to "change history" by altering posts which in many cases have already been read and/or responded to. In many cases, people do that without really considering the ramifications. 

At the least, it can make a thread somewhat confusing, as people are seen to respond to something that's no longer there, or _not_ respond to something that's been added. And used without integrity, it can totally change the meaning of what was originally posted, allowing an Orwellian re-writing of history.

I'm not accusing Mike or anyone else of doing that per se, but constant editing of one's posts does cast a shadow on all of them.

Better to review and correct *before* hitting Submit, and deal with the conversation just as one would face to face.


----------



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Tinstaafl said:


> Not you, Wise.
> 
> The edit feature is there to be used as you do. However, it makes it all too easy to "change history" by altering posts which in many cases have already been read and/or responded to. In many cases, people do that without really considering the ramifications.
> 
> ...


Excellent post!
It has been a taxing morning for me, I apologize for taking your post the wrong way.


----------



## DRC (Dec 4, 2008)

I remember when a 4 page thread meant there was a good fight going on. Bitching, name calling, slander, even talking about your mama. Not this polite, informative conversation crap. This forum is going down the drain.


----------



## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

> Not this polite, informative conversation crap. This forum is going down the drain.


I'll take the credit for this,:thumbup:

As to editing, I usually will add edit: right above what I added. Also you may notice on some posts I'm the only one up posting at the particular time of night. lol. Thanks for the information Tins, I will try to be cautious when editing during a hot topic that is getting several posts.


----------

