# Osha, dot



## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

I have been hearing some real horror stories of contractors receiving visits from OSHA lately. From what I am told you will have fines to pay regardless of your compliance. 



Can i purchase insurance for devastating, business bankrupting fines, if this was to happen to me. DOT can be very nasty also, just wondering what my options are.

I just got off the phone with Friend of mine that is in the excavating biz. He said I was crazy to think something like this exist. I said doctors have insurance for this its called malpractice. 

I am thinking about employees more than owners being on site at time of inspection. In the excavation business fines can be devastatingly large. Just wondering?


----------



## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

Malpractice is one individual suing another.... Fines are a penalty

Malpractice has to be argued in court. Violations just have to documented...


----------



## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

OSHA and the DOT fines result from you breaking the law


----------



## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

This is why I have dropped all thoughts of having employees.


----------



## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

The best insurance you can buy to prevent osha and dot fines is due diligence.


----------



## EmmCeeDee (May 23, 2010)

Insurance that will pay all the massive fines if you violate safety regs? That does not sound like a viable business model to me.

I mean, why would you even follow any regs at all if insurance was just going to cover it anyway? What would the premiums be like on that policy?

Perhaps you are thinking of Errors and Omissions (E&O) insurance, or General Liability?


----------



## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

All good comments. Due diligence is good. 

Sar-con, If our regulations were that easy. You can't tell me that if you had a inspector come on one of your jobs that was a little over zealous that he couldn't fine you for something. This is a bureaucracy were talking about here. 

You also can't tell me that someone working for you doesn't ever make a dump choice either. 

Anti-wingnut, it is not about me breaking the law, what about an employee not using a trench box on a 5'/6'' trench when he should of used it at 5'. Did you know that if you wear your hard hat on backward it is a violation? Did you know that every chain, strap, has to be tagged with proper weight limit? Did you know that the first aid kit has to be a certain size depending on how many people are working? Do you have every fire extinguisher is tag with a current inspection date? This is just some examples among many. I am just saying it is not about safety sometimes and it can be more about revenue.


----------



## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

jmacd said:


> Can i purchase insurance for devastating, business bankrupting fines, if this was to happen to me.I am thinking about employees more than owners being on site at time of inspection. In the excavation business fines can be devastatingly large. Just wondering?


 Some of the best insurance you can get against devastating fines is properly training field guys on how to respond when OSHA shows up. Presuming that no one is willfully violating standards there should be little reason you'd suffer devastating fines if your field guys follow some pretty simple procedures upon the OSHA "man" identifying himself and notifying your people of his intent to inspect their workplace. Amongst other things your people need to do is ask OSHA to delay its inspection until your safety officer is on site, secure the work zone until the safety officer arrives and remove all personnel from excavations and "confined" areas. One of the worst scenarios possible is having employees inadvertently helping OSHA identify violations or arguing with an inspector about whether some condition is appropriate or not. You have to know the rules to have any reasonable expectation of winning the game.


----------



## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

No insurance to cover fines.

Fines can be negotiated through the area director. If you act calm and are resonable and have a good clean history you can easily get your fines reduced and make payments. Remember, if OSHA visits your site, it is best to remain calm and not flip it. 

BTW... you can deny access to your site if OSHA does not have a warrant. Ask them to see their warrant, if they say they do not have one, then tell them they are not allowed on-site. If they tell you they do not need one, they are lying. Ask them to speak to the area director then. A good inspector knows the laws and is respectful of your rights.

OSHA inspectors do not go riding around looking for violations. 99% of the time they show up is because they are following up on a complaint, or an accident has already happened. Most complaints come from disgruntled employees or jealous contractors.

More than half of a safety inspectors times is spent in the office doing paperwork. Actual time in the field in minimal and alot of it is driving. My local OSHA office only has about 6 or 7 safety inspectors and cover about 15 counties. They cannot be everywhere at once.


----------



## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

Rino and Pipe guy, very good. Thats the kind of stuff that is helpful. I have never had a visit from the man. I did have a close friend of mine receive one today and he said the inspector was at the site for 6 hours. 

Wrote them up for everything they could find including an extension cord in the back of his truck that was his personal cord that had the ground broken off. His story got my attention, so this is why I started the thread. 

The trench was 5' 6'' deep, wrote them up for no trench box, wrong safety vest, wrong hard hats, wrong gas cans, wrong chains, cable, hooks, the list is two pages. I guess a county employee called on them.


----------



## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

FYI, wearing a hardhat backwards is a OSHA violation.

Lifting chains need to be tagged.

You can be in a trench that is under 5'. If the trench is deeper than that, you can bench it, but the bench must be at 4' or less.


----------



## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

rino1494 said:


> FYI, wearing a hardhat back wards is a OSHA violation.
> 
> Lifting chains need to be tagged.
> 
> You can be in a trench that is under 5'. If the trench is deeper than that, you can bench it, but the bench must be at 4' or less.


My Friend said the trench was 5' 6" no bench, in the street. They didn't use a box because of the many utilities crossing. They were fixing a water main so homes out of water. 

He could of got a little mouthy though, just works for the company no ownership.


----------



## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

just comply:blink: And yes I did know all the things you listed about the OSHA standards. One of my favorites is for the respirator, you need to be professionally fitted and at least 2 hours training:thumbsup:


----------



## skcolo (May 16, 2009)

I'm still amazed that the human race survived before OSHA made it all safe.


----------



## skcolo (May 16, 2009)

If OSHA was around in the Civil War, you can bet that there would have been fewer causalities.


----------



## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

jmacd said:


> Rino and Pipe guy, very good. Thats the kind of stuff that is helpful. I have never had a visit from the man. I did have a close friend of mine receive one today and he said the inspector was at the site for 6 hours.
> 
> Wrote them up for everything they could find including an extension cord in the back of his truck that was his personal cord that had the ground broken off. His story got my attention, so this is why I started the thread.
> 
> The trench was 5' 6'' deep, wrote them up for no trench box, wrong safety vest, wrong hard hats, wrong gas cans, wrong chains, cable, hooks, the list is two pages. I guess a county employee called on them.


All things that would have been covered in the most minimal OSHA safety course:whistling


----------



## Windwash (Dec 23, 2007)

When osha shows up on site use your one hour to put every power tool and cord in a locked gangbox or trailer or they will find something wrong no matter how diligent you are with tool upkeep.


----------



## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

skcolo said:


> If OSHA was around in the Civil War, you can bet that there would have been fewer causalities.


OSHA does not have jurisdiction over the military.


----------



## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

mrcharles said:


> OSHA does not have jurisdiction over the military.


Nor do they have any over any state or municipality. I love watching the township or county guys ride around with a guy in the backhoe bucket.


----------



## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

rino1494 said:


> Nor do they have any over any state or municipality. I love watching the township or county guys ride around with a guy in the backhoe bucket.


The ironic thing about that is the complaint came from a county employee. 

The information about what to do if you get a visit to protect yourself is the most useful.

My guess is that OSHA is nothing compared to DEC or EPA inspections.

Less face it wearing your hard hat backwards is just silly.:jester:


----------



## WilsonRMDL (Sep 4, 2007)

Had OSHA show up on a job yesterday and at the shop this morning.


----------



## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

mrcharles said:


> OSHA does not have jurisdiction over the military.


On every Military base I've worked on the base safety personal was more strict than OSHA.


----------



## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

jmacd said:


> My Friend said the trench was 5' 6" no bench, in the street. They didn't use a box because of the many utilities crossing. They were fixing a water main so homes out of water.





jmacd said:


> The ironic thing about that is the complaint came from a county employee.


Could be he was trying to protect the county from liability. Just sayin....


----------



## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

There have been instances where a contractor were doing work for a water company and an inspector for the water company called OSHA for guys in a trench.


----------



## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Dieing with a ton of dirt on you is a bad way to go:no: And what about the kids:blink:


----------



## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

jmacd said:


> All good comments. Due diligence is good.
> 
> Anti-wingnut, it is not about me breaking the law, what about an employee not using a trench box on a 5'/6'' trench when he should of used it at 5'. Did you know that if you wear your hard hat on backward it is a violation? Not correct. Many hardhats are made to be worn in either direction. Older hardhats may be viewed as strictly allowable only with the bill forward, newer ones are often reversible.
> 
> Did you know that every chain, strap, has to be tagged with proper weight limit? Did you know that the first aid kit has to be a certain size depending on how many people are working? Do you have every fire extinguisher is tag with a current inspection date?


Yes to all

Hardhat links:
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24365

http://fibre-metal.com/2012/protection-starts-at-the-top/


----------



## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

WilsonRMDL said:


> Had OSHA show up on a job yesterday and at the shop this morning.


Tell us about the visit please.


----------



## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Dieing with a ton of dirt on you is a bad way to go:no: And what about the kids:blink:


Incidents like dieing in a trench from cave in is why we need OSHA. I agree with the need for safety. 

No one wants this to happen to them or some one thats works for them. The problem with many bureaucratic agencies is they get out of control. No real checks and balances to determine if the violation is some thing that is dangerous or is financially driven. 

Also, there is a line between safety concerns or financial burden on business, then it is more of a tax than a fine.:no:


----------



## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Most rules are common sence. Don't you think a first aid kit should be adequate? Shouldn't it be easy to know how strong a sling is? 

The backwards hard hat rule is about 20 years old, and one isn't likely to be sited unless the mouth and attitude is put in gear


----------



## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Most rules are common sense. Don't you think a first aid kit should be adequate? Shouldn't it be easy to know how strong a sling is?
> 
> The back wards hard hat rule is about 20 years old, and one isn't likely to be sited unless the mouth and attitude is put in gear


I am not trying to defend unsafe practices. I want to have my job site safe for me and every one else. I don't think this way because of OSHA. 

You obviously believe that also. 

I am just going by what I have been told by others, what the general consensus is that OSHA visits go well beyond common sense voilations. 

Tell me about your visits, if you have had one. Interested in others that have a different experience ( good, helpfully,)than what I have been told.


----------



## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

jmacd said:


> Tell me about your visits, if you have had one. Interested in others that have a different experience ( good, helpfully,)than what I have been told.


Had a number of OSHA and WISHA (I live in Washington, and they have their own L&I department). None have ever gone bad, they want to see if you have a clue, and come down on the latest mandate du jour. I remember one in particular where WISHA had just implimented the "Assured Grounding Program" on cords. He was impressed that we were in fact following the program, and mostly had questions about whether we understood it as he did. Always had a short little list of corrections with no fines.


----------



## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

The Obama administration is calling out for more enforcement. The only way to show more enforcement is to write out more fines. The problem is, over the years, contractors have gotten better at safety.

BTW, if you are on a job that is funded by stimulus money, there are automatic scheduled checks by OSHA.


----------



## peteo (Jan 8, 2011)

jmacd said:


> My Friend said the trench was 5' 6" no bench, in the street. They didn't use a box because of the many utilities crossing. They were fixing a water main so homes out of water.
> 
> He could of got a little mouthy though, just works for the company no ownership.


Me personally, I'm not going into a trench that's not shored or benched anymore. 5 1/2' through a street with multiple utilities is a pain no doubt but that also means the soil has a greater chance of collapse due to previous excavation. I used to take some risks in my younger years but no more. On a separate note, I was told by an inspector that you can wear a hardhat backwards as long as you turn the suspension backwards as well. I personally don't but I see an awful lot of guys around here that do. Just my .02


----------

