# My increasing interest in forming.



## Structure (May 29, 2011)

FramingPro said:


> i was did not flare the top because i was lazy to cut those mitres and it was on corner. Yea im going to get my sander put it in a bag and use it as a vibrator. I think it cracked because it was loaded for whatever reason before it cured


For vibration, put a concrete nail in a hammer drill with the head out, press it against the form and hit the trigger and run it along the form, works alright for small stuff.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Structure said:


> For vibration, put a concrete nail in a hammer drill with the head out, press it against the form and hit the trigger and run it along the form, works alright for small stuff.


i don't have a hammer drill


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Nick, you're really starting to resemble the Bill Gates of construction. Keep at it.:thumbup:


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## Structure (May 29, 2011)

FramingPro said:


> i don't have a hammer drill


Hit up a hock shop, 25, 30 buck can get you an older Mikita or Milwaukee that will probably run for longer then you'll live!!! There's lot's of them in TO, and usually an abundance of those tools so after awhile they just wanna get rid of them.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Save your money kid for the girls.  Be plenty of time to buy tools. Next time just tap your forms will your hammer. Tap not slam. :thumbsup:

BTW I forgot to tell you Nick you get a A from me for effort. :thumbsup:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

FramingPro said:


> on a house?


4 of them side by side. We have 6 weeks in and out. Work boots and a hard hat on site mandatory. 

You can learn layout, footings, ICF walls, floor connections, waterproofing, weeping tile. Oh yea and a couple hundred feet of retaining wall they added to my contract yesterday.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Chris Johnson said:


> 4 of them side by side. We have 6 weeks in and out. Work boots and a hard hat on site mandatory.
> 
> You can learn layout, footings, ICF walls, floor connections, waterproofing, weeping tile. Oh yea and a couple hundred feet of retaining wall they added to my contract yesterday.


There ya go Nick. Kick some azz! :clap: Take these opportunities, the real world is the best classroom.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> Save your money kid for the girls.  Be plenty of time to buy tools. Next time just tap your forms will your hammer. Tap not slam. :thumbsup:
> 
> BTW I forgot to tell you Nick you get a A from me for effort. :thumbsup:


i was tapping it but i did not want to **** things up s


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

Concrete for compressive strength. Steel for tensile strength. Reinforced concrete uses both principles in harmony.

With a design like you had, a monolithic pour would have been manageable and would have changed the dynamics of the joinery.

I have used an old palm sander on the side of small forms to vibrate.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Internal vibration is the only proper way to consolidate anything structural, bang the form with a hammer, sawsall without the blade or any of these other methods may make the surface look good after form removal but doesn't necessarily ensure all air is removed from the center of the casting.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Chris Johnson said:


> Internal vibration is the only proper way to consolidate anything structural, bang the form with a hammer, sawsall without the blade or any of these other methods may make the surface look good after form removal but doesn't necessarily ensure all air is removed from the center of the casting.



This is true but we are talking about a 3 inches of concrete here. 

Just out of curiosity can those lego blocks you guys call ICF's handle a high cycle vibrator? :whistling:no:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

JustaFramer said:


> This is true but we are talking about a 3 inches of concrete here.
> 
> Just out of curiosity can those lego blocks you guys call ICF's handle a high cycle vibrator? :whistling:no:


Yes, we are just talking 3" here, I just don't want our young apprentice to think this is acceptable in the field. :thumbsup: I have seen too many times concrete issues because of improper consolidation techniques.

Core size on the ICF dictates the maximum head size to use. i.e. 6" core I use 7/8" head, 8" I still use 7/8" head but 1 1/8" is acceptable, 10 & 12" cores can take an 1 1/2" head depending on rebar pattern/spacing.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Chris Johnson said:


> Yes, we are just talking 3" here, I just don't want our young apprentice to think this is acceptable in the field. :thumbsup: I have seen too many times concrete issues because of improper consolidation techniques.


I agree. Especially when a lot of re-bar is used. The only time I have done the form tap was for architectural. A vib was still used though. 



> Core size on the ICF dictates the maximum head size to use. i.e. 6" core I use 7/8" head, 8" I still use 7/8" head but 1 1/8" is acceptable, 10 & 12" cores can take an 1 1/2" head depending on rebar pattern/spacing.


Good to know. ICF hasn't quite caught on here like it has in other areas.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Mr Latone said:


> Concrete for compressive strength. Steel for tensile strength. Reinforced concrete uses both principles in harmony.
> 
> With a design like you had, a monolithic pour would have been manageable and would have changed the dynamics of the joinery.
> 
> I have used an old palm sander on the side of small forms to vibrate.


monolithic including the columns , that was my orginal plan.

Well i just came in from pouring my 12 x 18 slab for my new, better and smaller model. I put 4 nails in the corners and roughed **** up for the columns to grab. I will flare the columns on top. I want to pour a wall so i will figure out something.

i did add rebar and vibrated the outside and poked the inside


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

You don't poke the inside...it's called rodding, that's old school prior to vibrating...or what we do when the vibrator cable brakes half way thru your pour


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> You don't poke the inside...it's called rodding, that's old school prior to vibrating...or what we do when the vibrator cable brakes half way thru your pour


oh 
man i starting to feel rusty framing, that is not good


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> 4 of them side by side. We have 6 weeks in and out. Work boots and a hard hat on site mandatory.
> 
> You can learn layout, footings, ICF walls, floor connections, waterproofing, weeping tile. Oh yea and a couple hundred feet of retaining wall they added to my contract yesterday.


what time do you work till, i get out at 320...well i could get out earlier ya know :whistling

are you framing it too?


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

loneframer said:


> Nick, you're really starting to resemble the Bill Gates of construction. Keep at it.:thumbup:


how so, im not rich


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

It sounds like "Framing Pro" is really a short-sighted "Amateur" and is over his head when it comes to doing a project properly.

When it comes to a complete structure from below ground to the top, only a strict framer would think more about the forms than what is needed in them to build properly.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

:clap:Here we go again:blink: somebody please put this young man to work,,I would love to have someone that wants to work and learn so much:thumbsup:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

concretemasonry said:


> It sounds like "Framing Pro" is really a short-sighted "Amateur" and is over his head when it comes to doing a project properly.
> 
> When it comes to a complete structure from below ground to the top, only a strict framer would think more about the forms than what is needed in them to build properly.


sounds about right


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

FramingPro said:


> sounds about right


Framers are loveable a-holes for the most part. Concrete guys are just a-holes. Learn to be both. :thumbsup:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Well since it's downtown we will most likely work til 6:00-6:30ish...no point leaving at 5:00 and sit in traffic!!

Between CT and the job site you can learn the second half of what you read in books. Don't get me wrong, reading is good to learn, but applying it on site a seeing it go together in real time fits all the pieces of the puzzle into one.

But don't think your going to learn it all before you finish high school...your only just beginning


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

All I can say is stay in school, You never want the pain I know as a part of life to be a part of yours! I even went to see a Thai massage pro last night and my back is still screaming:sad:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> All I can say is stay in school, You never want the pain I know as a part of life to be a part of yours! I even went to see a Thai massage pro last night and my back is still screaming:sad:



Did you opt for the happy ending instead of deep tissue?


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

FramingPro said:


> how so, im not rich


Bill gates wasn't always rich either.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

loneframer said:


> Bill gates wasn't always rich either.


His daddy was.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

concretemasonry said:


> It sounds like "Framing Pro" is really a short-sighted "Amateur" and is over his head when it comes to doing a project properly.


At 15 years of age, FP is light years ahead of many of us at his age.
The fact that he spends much of his free time here, hanging out with some of the most experienced and knowledgeable tradesmen to be found shows his dedication and desire for learning the trades.

Amateur is probably accurate, but I have to disagree with "short-sighted".:thumbsup:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

JustaFramer said:


> His daddy was.


It's all relative. I'm not so sure his father shared the same level of wealth as BG has obtained.

The point I was making is, BG was and is doing what he was destined to do and has done well. I was only wishing the same fortune for young Nick.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

loneframer said:


> It's all relative. I'm not so sure his father shared the same level of wealth as BG has obtained.
> 
> The point I was making is, BG was and is doing what he was destined to do and has done well. I was only wishing the same fortune for young Nick.


No but being a high profile attorney has it's perks. If I remember correctly his dad gave him 50g's in 70's money to invest in the venture. 

So give or take a 100g's in today's money what is that about million dollars? :laughing:

I do understand from your first post you are giving Nick encouragement and well-being.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> Did you opt for the happy ending instead of deep tissue?


Get your mind out of the gutter:no: No funny stuff here only the best Thai girls, truly skilled at what they do:thumbup:
http://thaiissan.com/location.htm
Now down stairs to the back on the building I hear is a different story:shifty: I have never been inside V.I.P.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Get your mind out of the gutter:no: No funny stuff here only the best Thai girls, truly skilled at what they do:thumbup:
> http://thaiissan.com/location.htm
> Now down stairs to the back on the building I hear is a different story:shifty: I have never been inside V.I.P.


:shifty: :laughing:

Sorry the Thai girls thing threw me off. :laughing: The local paper once published a map of every Asian massage parlor along hiway 99. :blink: I think it was a expose of the illegitimacy of these places. But considering none of them got shut down. I think it ended up being free publicity with a map. :laughing: They do keep the streets clean at night though.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> Well since it's downtown we will most likely work til 6:00-6:30ish...no point leaving at 5:00 and sit in traffic!!
> 
> Between CT and the job site you can learn the second half of what you read in books. Don't get me wrong, reading is good to learn, but applying it on site a seeing it go together in real time fits all the pieces of the puzzle into one.
> 
> But don't think your going to learn it all before you finish high school...your only just beginning



i was not counting on it :thumbsup:, well 330. maybe arrive at 4. that not bad 2.5 -3 hours

are you framing them?


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

loneframer said:


> At 15 years of age, FP is light years ahead of many of us at his age.
> The fact that he spends much of his free time here, hanging out with some of the most experienced and knowledgeable tradesmen to be found shows his dedication and desire for learning the trades.
> 
> Amateur is probably accurate, but I have to disagree with "short-sighted".:thumbsup:


thanks dawg, semi pro? :laughing:

Whatever the title is i can still do alright work


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

No not framing them...yet...my contract quadrupled since I originally quoted the job.

We got the foundations, all the flat work, curbs, driveways, Darotopp for all the framed floors to cover the radiant heat. And now the site retaining walls. Basically if it has some version of Portland cement going in...were doing it.

We have townhouses to do in Hamilton once this job is finished and we have all the framing to do on them.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> No not framing them...yet...my contract quadrupled since I originally quoted the job.
> 
> We got the foundations, all the flat work, curbs, driveways, Darotopp for all the framed floors to cover the radiant heat. And now the site retaining walls. Basically if it has some version of Portland cement going in...were doing it.
> 
> We have townhouses to do in Hamilton once this job is finished and we have all the framing to do on them.


how long will this take?.
Wait do you want me to work or lurk


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

The rest of your life


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> The rest of your life


no the job :laughing:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

You want to start a career? Now is the time, you have been tinkering around learning on your own doing a few things, which is good. Now, come start at the jobsite.

One little glitch, your age...I need a letter from your parent/guardian allowing you to work. I'll check workers comp. to make sure your legal on the jobsite. If not...we will figure something out...i.e. Don't get hurt!

This job is 5-6 weeks.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> You want to start a career? Now is the time, you have been tinkering around learning on your own doing a few things, which is good. Now, come start at the jobsite.
> 
> One little glitch, your age...I need a letter from your parent/guardian allowing you to work. I'll check workers comp. to make sure your legal on the jobsite. If not...we will figure something out...i.e. Don't get hurt!
> 
> This job is 5-6 weeks.


age is always an issue


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

FramingPro said:


> do you tie the bar in the walls. I can't imagine rebar being an exact science.


In residential work it's typically not. Commercial and civil work. You bet your butt it is. Or they end up taking a whole mid-rise down.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> In residential work it's typically not. Commercial and civil work. You bet your butt it is. Or they end up taking a whole mid-rise down.



no i mean like if you put a bend at 23" instead of 22" for a 90 corner. rough cuts


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

Basement walls going in. Taller walls here.










Full ICF basement on this one too. Also did a lite-deck roof on that.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

WildWill said:


> Basement walls going in. Taller walls here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



those vertical things are for the scaffold and aligment? I guess they screw into webs and then at the bottom centre the turnbuckle and drive stake to hold it? they look about 6' apart


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

There is the very occasional piece that needs to be tied, but it's few and far between. 

Even on commercial and civil projects we don't tie bar. The big difference is education, If you know your product and job, in our case ICF, it is my responsibility to educate the engineer and designer since most of them do not understand how ICF works. And once I accomplish this the build goes smoothly.

We did a job last spring and the engineer was let's say not locally educated, just to carry on we did tie the vert bars to the top bar...got to the point that 30 minutes of my time to tie was cheaper then the oxycodine I was starting to need...never used or recommended that guy since then.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> There is the very occasional piece that needs to be tied, but it's few and far between.
> 
> Even on commercial and civil projects we don't tie bar. The big difference is education, If you know your product and job, in our case ICF, it is my responsibility to educate the engineer and designer since most of them do not understand how ICF works. And once I accomplish this the build goes smoothly.
> 
> We did a job last spring and the engineer was let's say not locally educated, just to carry on we did tie the vert bars to the top bar...got to the point that 30 minutes of my time to tie was cheaper then the oxycodine I was starting to need...never used or recommended that guy since then.


so i know the horizontal bar sits in holes in the web ties, but is there vertical bar too? I think so but its just weaved in from above.

how do you mark rebar to cut, paint crayon? I can't imagine you have to be too precise with bending and cutting because you can overlap it
what tools do i bring. will i need any pliers or my speed sqaure?


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

FramingPro said:


> no i mean like if you put a bend at 23" instead of 22" for a 90 corner. rough cuts


You are one inch short on your over lap. Add more steel :thumbsup: or you don't get the OK to pour.


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

FramingPro said:


> those vertical things are for the scaffold and aligment? I guess they screw into webs and then at the bottom centre the turnbuckle and drive stake to hold it? they look about 6' apart


Yes, yes, and yes. :clap:


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

That looks like styrofoam


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

FramingPro said:


> no i mean like if you put a bend at 23" instead of 22" for a 90 corner. rough cuts


That couldn't ever happen. surely.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Weave is a good word but rebar is a little stiff to weave, you alternate the horizontal bar in the block seats. Easy rule of thumb is rows 1,3,5,7,9,etc rebar position is the same, rows 2,4,6,8,10,etc are the same but one seat different then the row below. This leaves a space of ~5/8" to slide the verts into when you get to thR top.

Rebar splice joints in Ontario are 18" for 10m or #4 bar and 22 1/2" for 15m or #5. Easiest way to not get in trouble is when making corner bars cut everything to 5', now bend in half (by eye bend in half) when you put that in the corner and run a straight horizontal bar into it your splice should be more then minimum code.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

WildWill said:


> Yes, yes, and yes. :clap:


basic idea down. no i need to try it on site.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

FramingPro said:


> basic idea down. no i need to try it on site.


It's Tuesday. You haven't made it down to the job yet?


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> It's Tuesday. You haven't made it down to the job yet?


he said 27th


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> Weave is a good word but rebar is a little stiff to weave, you alternate the horizontal bar in the block seats. Easy rule of thumb is rows 1,3,5,7,9,etc rebar position is the same, rows 2,4,6,8,10,etc are the same but one seat different then the row below. This leaves a space of ~5/8" to slide the verts into when you get to thR top.
> 
> Rebar splice joints in Ontario are 18" for 10m or #4 bar and 22 1/2" for 15m or #5. Easiest way to not get in trouble is when making corner bars cut everything to 5', now bend in half (by eye bend in half) when you put that in the corner and run a straight horizontal bar into it your splice should be more then minimum code.



its 4 1/2" lap every step up in 1 size of bar. the sizes are the /8ths ya ?


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

It can't be that complicated


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

36d


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

FramingPro said:


> he said 27th


Missed that part. Didn't think you were a slacker.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> 36d


thats your bra size? :whistling


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> Missed that part. Didn't think you were a slacker.



you scared me for a second


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> Me too...Like when I get to Hawaii I need to find Ice Coffee really quick :clap:


next challenge. wait is this carpentry apprentice stuff or ?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

When making a non-contact splice, what is the minimum and maximum amount of spread on 15m rebar in a 6 1/4" ICF core?


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Chris Johnson said:


> And how are you replying to threads during school hours?


He is demonstrating a knack for multitasking. :clap:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> Close....
> 
> It goes on the inside based on there being something holding the top of the wall i.e. Floor System creating a diaphragm and helping evenly disperse pressure around to the other walls. Everything is working together and the rebar cannot or does not have the ability to stretch as much since it is further from the pressures of the backfill.
> 
> ...


yo, when you mean diaphragm you mean the floor once its sheathed keeps the tops of the walls sqaure and the 4 walls brace each other on the bottom?


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

KentWhitten said:


> He is demonstrating a knack for multitasking. :clap:


yes. block out teachers voice and do this :thumbup:


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Don't say yo. For the rest of your life.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

KentWhitten said:


> Don't say yo. For the rest of your life.


why, not


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

framingpro said:


> why, not
> 
> 
> 
> ...


b..........a..........n!!!


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

yo......


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

You don't call/answer me with a yo...and if you roll your eyes at me...you may just find a 14oz. Stiletto up the side of your head...or perhaps an 8' Stabila in a very uncomfortable position


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

:laughing:

We always tell our kids " If you roll your eyes again we will roll them twice as hard!!!!"

Don't roll your eyes to the boss boy. You aint a slot machine!


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Chris Johnson said:


> You don't call/answer me with a yo...and if you roll your eyes at me...you may just find a 14oz. Stiletto up the side of your head...or perhaps an 8' Stabila in a very uncomfortable position


 THAT'S why Nick. It's disrespectful.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

KentWhitten said:


> THAT'S why Nick. It's disrespectful.


Thank you...for the political correct answer :thumbsup:

Nick, Still looking for the answer to the last question


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> You don't call/answer me with a yo...and if you roll your eyes at me...you may just find a 14oz. Stiletto up the side of your head...or perhaps an 8' Stabila in a very uncomfortable position


thats a thinking face > this one 

im not trying to disrespect you if you feel like that


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)




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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

FramingPro said:


> thats a thinking face > this one
> 
> im not trying to disrespect you if you feel like that


Throw a dog in there too, they like that. And if you screw something up give em a "my bad" and you can throw dog in on that too.

"Yo, my bad dog!"

:jester:


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

WildWill said:


> "Yo, my bad dog!"
> :jester:


I don't think that MTV mumbo jumbo dose well with any of us:no:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Well this thread has taken a turn, yo.


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> I don't think that MTV mumbo jumbo dose well with any of us:no:



I think someone missed the joke:whistling


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

WildWill said:


> I think someone missed the joke:whistling


Oh sorry bout that, not enough coffee yet:laughing: I owe, so I must go It's Friday:clap:


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

That should provide a nice fix for your forming fetish.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Rich D. said:


> So what were the anchor bolts for? are you guys going all the way up with the icf's?
> 
> Sorry with all the questions I'm just interested!



for the2x12 sill plate


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

So I figure there framing the 1st and 2nd stories.. very interesting.. how is that q decking conected to the icf wall?


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Rich D. said:


> So I figure there framing the 1st and 2nd stories.. very interesting.. how is that q decking conected to the icf wall?


there is 3 steel beams under neath. then its spot welded with shear studs and then concrete. that is for the garage..


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

Cool, sounds like a fun project thanks!


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Hey, those are copyright pictures!!!

What you see is what you get for ICF on this project, tight city lots so the builder is framing the balance of the house...uggh

If you want Nick, those upper retaining walls need the bar tied, 12" o.c. both ways...good Saturday job for you!!!


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

FramingPro said:


> with shear studs .


Nelson Studs


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> Hey, those are copyright pictures!!!
> 
> What you see is what you get for ICF on this project, tight city lots so the builder is framing the balance of the house...uggh
> 
> If you want Nick, those upper retaining walls need the bar tied, 12" o.c. both ways...good Saturday job for you!!!


For tommorow?
i was not aware that there was an upper retaining wall..


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> Nelson Studs



i stand corrected :laughing:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

FramingPro said:


> For tommorow?
> i was not aware that there was an upper retaining wall..


Not tomorrow, I'm off for a couple weekends.

Look at your pictures, see all that SM at the top? That's about 200' of wall anywhere from 4' to 8' tall, I'll set you up


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> Not tomorrow, I'm off for a couple weekends.
> 
> Look at your pictures, see all that SM at the top? That's about 200' of wall anywhere from 4' to 8' tall, I'll set you up


is it a one sided wall, like put forms 12" away from that foam and retaining beams and then pour it?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

When was the last time you saw a one sided wall??


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Take a break...wine and crab leg time


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> When was the last time you saw a one sided wall??


so whats that steel and wood for..
Like forms on one side

so i guess it will be formed with snap ties and ply or premade forms?
That will be cool to learn.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

*Today*

So today i had no school so... i went back to work with(for) Chris
When i got there i had to dig out some of the point load footings. to a depth of inch: 18" 

We had to unload the form truck... I thought ICF would be lighter because its foam. Lets just say they are heavier then they look :whistling

Then i set them up, level blah blah.

Did some rebar work. tying bar and what not. I will make a pair of linemans pliers with a handle like those of scissors so that when you go to cut and spin you don't lose grip. Patent pending:whistling

Pump showed up and then we had to wait. What 1 hour for the first truck and then trucks were all over the place 45min 1hour out each time. Except the last 2. We had some interesting slumps that we poured. Some agilia sorta stuff and some like peanut butter :laughing:

Poured them. no blow outs. screeeded and embed dowels. The steps in these footings made from some interesting pouring. We had to pour part of the step to close it up and let it set then go back and finish the steps up. 

Oh ya. Chris builds some serious footings. Serious. 2 rows of 15m rebar. And the boards 2x8s. These aren't your average throw down some 1x6 and hope it holds footings, these are real. 2'-6" 6" bend dowels every 16".. 

And the steps perfect 18" to accommodate the 18" block he uses.

Was a nice day. Framers were going good. I had to resist temptation though to hop up and help them:whistling

Weird design.. Maybe chris can post the footing plan. On 1 side there is footings on the inside of the house...
Im not sure why..

Anyways heres some pics.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Righteous :thumbsup::clap:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

went again. 
Not much interesting. His guys got lots of walls built. i did labor tasks. The first time i felt like a laborer on that site. but i don't mind everyone contributes.
i laid 1 block today :thumbup: :laughing:

Few more weeks on that site.
I learned some stuff about benchmarks and setting grades and stuff. and brick ledge. Pretty cool
Set up scafollding and what not.
The framer next door is doing pretty good. he said that once chris leaves i could go help him frame the other 3. Not to abandon chris of course. No way i would do that. Its just chris's next project is 1.5-2 hours away and i can't exactly get there easily or go after school.. 
i did get my license though, so next year around this time i plan on buying a work truck and ill be set :thumbup: Thats a pretty massive wall. Without openings, im not sure if they will be cut after but still 12' high but what Chris? 50'


pics included

the brick ledge detail is a PITA. The main part of the wall is 10" and for the brick ledge is steps to a 6" block for 4" bearing for the bricks and we have to back cut the foam at and angle to allow for sufficient bearing on concrete. less foam= more concrete=more bearing

Beautiful day too. 15 degrees, t shirts and the view of Toronto is nice... i suppose


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

After reading all that you weren't laboring...you learned something!!


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> After reading all that you weren't laboring...you learned something!!


yea, today i was sorta out of it though, im not sure why but i atleast noted some stuff. Can you explain why the brick ledge is done like that? Is it to match the landscaping stairs going there? I think so.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

What the He11 is that needle thing up there:blink:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> What the He11 is that needle thing up there:blink:


thats the imfamous CN tower . It is or used to be the tallest free standing tower out there but dubai probably beat us


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> What the He11 is that needle thing up there:blink:


That's called $72.00 to go for a 69 second elevator ride to the top after standing in a line up for about an hour or so.

So where I live I look out and see the CN Tower, last summer I took my kid to the top to look for our place. Haha

Yes the step in the block follows the grade


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Get the hell out! $72/person? for an elevator ride? How much is a one way ticket?


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> That's called $72.00 to go for a 69 second elevator ride to the top after standing in a line up for about an hour or so.
> 
> So where I live I look out and see the CN Tower, last summer I took my kid to the top to look for our place. Haha
> 
> Yes the step in the block follows the grade


i heard you got the contract for a 500' ICF extension on it :laughing:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

No two people, my kid and I.

You can take the stairs if you want


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Chris Johnson said:


> No two people, my kid and I.
> 
> You can take the stairs if you want


No thanks, I'll enjoy the view from here. :laughing:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

And I thought the elevator ride up the Space Needle was expensive.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Does anyone remember Conan O'Brian doing his show in Toronto must have been about 10 years ago. He did the space needle vs. the CN Tower. I don't remember the whole skit, just bouncing around on stage.

So, how much is ride to the top of the space needle?


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

I think it is $20 now. My wife and I went a long time ago. I love seeing things from that high of a viewpoint. I think that there's another level beyond the observation deck. Of course, probably another $20. 

Our 7th grade basketball team went sightseeing to NYC after getting our asses handed to us in the tournament. Went to the top of the Empire State Building and if I remember correctly, that was free. Our coach, so naive. He lets us walk around Grand Central without supervision. I look back on that and think "how did we not get mugged" :laughing: Bunch of 12 year olds walking around NYC. Wheeee! Our coach had a guy approach him on the street, gave him his business card. He was selling heroin :laughing: I am not kidding.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

Empire state building isant free anymore!:laughing:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

The Space Needle is 18 for adults 11 for kids. If you eat lunch up there your looking at around 70 bucks for the whole thing. 
Of course the Space Needle isn't as tall as the CN Tower. it would be cool to do CN once.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

JustaFramer said:


> The Space Needle is 18 for adults 11 for kids. If you eat lunch up there your looking at around 70 bucks for the whole thing.
> Of course the Space Needle isn't as tall as the CN Tower. it would be cool to do CN once.


CN Tower is okay, the restaurant rotates about once an hour. There is a glass floor in a portion of the tower so you can look straight down roughly 1400' or so. Restaurant is pricey, but not much different than many other restaurants in the city core. If its a clear day at the top you can see clear across Lake Ontario to Rochester NY.

The base of the tower has many tourist attractions as well, the biggest being the Skydome with the retractable roof, where the Blue Jays play baseball and the Argos play football


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Oh no It's gone from a 


Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Righteous :thumbsup::clap:


Form thread:blink:

To an off topic question:whistling


Dirtywhiteboy said:


> What the He11 is that needle thing up there:blink:


That has spun this thing into a travel channel thread:no: So if we can get back to forming,, What about slip forms, use many slip forms up there?:whistling


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Oh no It's gone from a
> Form thread:blink:
> 
> To an off topic question:whistling
> That has spun this thing into a travel channel thread:no: So if we can get back to forming,, What about slip forms, use many slip forms up there?:whistling


if we are thinking about the same thing then i bet they used them or self climbing forms on the cn tower.

merging the 2 topics :thumbup:


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## JWilliams (Nov 11, 2008)

Thread hijack!


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Hey our last Wednesday pour, the last truck we had was driven by the last guy still working and driving ready mix trucks that worked on the....CN Tower....

See everything is still related in this thread

And yes Nick when they built the tower they were sliding the forms up as they were pouring it


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> And yes Nick when they built the tower they were sliding the forms up as they were pouring it


They call that slip forming?


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Rich D. said:


> They call that slip forming?


Yes


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> Yes


And they use Slip Forms:whistling
And what about flying forms:blink: The big ones we use for pour in place decks, bust em loose, push em out and fly them up to the next level to do all over again:thumbsup:


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## JWilliams (Nov 11, 2008)

around my parts we call those tables DWB


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## JWilliams (Nov 11, 2008)

i've busted loose many of those too. man my younger days as a form carpenter.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

A lot of the decks done around here are Titan HV system. Form/pour about 5 floors. Then start stripping the bottom set. Set those ****ing ellis shores. Fly the parts to the next floor. 

I was on one job were slip forms were going to be used. To the point they poured in the starting bracket points. They changed their mind and we did jumps about 8 of them. If I remember correctly the pours were 20 plus trucks each.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

what do the slip forms ride on if the concrete below them is hardly cured?


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> A lot of the decks done around here are Titan HV system. Form/pour about 5 floors. Then start stripping the bottom set. Set those ****ing ellis shores. Fly the parts to the next floor.
> 
> I was on one job were slip forms were going to be used. To the point they poured in the starting bracket points. They changed their mind and we did jumps about 8 of them. If I remember correctly the pours were 20 plus trucks each.



around here its mostly alumabeams.. i have seen some titan though.
How do you make tables from titan it just looks like posts and beams. i guess you just make trusses like everything else.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

_Flying Forms_:blink:








The Flying Form System is a type of concrete forming, widely used for supporting cast-in-place concrete slabs in multilevel highrise construction. The common name for one assembled unit of the Flying Form System is FLYING FORM TABLE.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

FramingPro said:


> around here its mostly alumabeams.. i have seen some titan though.
> How do you make tables from titan it just looks like posts and beams. i guess you just make trusses like everything else.



Nope. This system is made of aluminum. But is not the Alumajoist system.They are build like framing floor joists but on stilts. They are stripped when it's time. Then the ply is left for the 28 day bake. The pole shores can be left to hold the ply and support the upper deck loads. After stripping the mains and seconds. The system constist's of the pole shores, mains (beams)and the seconds (joists). Of course 3/4" ply but that is bought typically on jobs of these sizes. 

From what I have gathered Ceco had the rights to this system till a few years ago. Now anyone can build with them.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> Nope. This system is made of aluminum. But is not the Alumajoist system.They are build like framing floor joists but on stilts. They are stripped when it's time. Then the ply is left for the 28 day bake. The pole shores can be left to hold the ply and support the upper deck loads. After stripping the mains and seconds. The system constist's of the pole shores, mains (beams)and the seconds (joists). Of course 3/4" ply but that is bought typically on jobs of these sizes.
> 
> From what I have gathered Ceco had the rights to this system till a few years ago. Now anyone can build with them.



the downside i see to titan is that it butts into the stringers rather then overlapping which could make things like going around columns weird.


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## JWilliams (Nov 11, 2008)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> _Flying Forms_:blink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seeing that picture just made me go back in time about 7years ago. thanks DWB


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

FramingPro said:


> the downside i see to titan is that it butts into the stringers rather then overlapping which could make things like going around columns weird.


No. Stringers? We aren't building stairs. Go back to building spread footings. :laughing:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> No. Stringers? We aren't building stairs. Go back to building spread footings. :laughing:


:blink:
in the doka films and other places i have heard the beams reffered to as stringers..


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Canadian and American terms are somewhat different Nick, same thing different words kind of like we say Eh! And Americans use Huh!


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> Canadian and American terms are somewhat different Nick, same thing different words kind of like we say Eh! And Americans use Huh!



true, what are you up to today..
whens the insuldeck going on? It goes on the last 2 houses on the back?

Are you going to construct canada on friday?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Insuldeck will be after floor framing is on, it goes on the back of the second floor.

Too cold for me outside, it's 2C (35F)...I'm working in the truck

Pour tomorrow if your planning on skipping school (Not)

Probably hit Construct Canada on Friday...I got free passes if you need one


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> Insuldeck will be after floor framing is on, it goes on the back of the second floor.
> 
> Too cold for me outside, it's 2C (35F)...I'm working in the truck
> 
> ...


isn't the isuldeck the floor structure itself?
Thas not too cold :no::no:
No i have like school or something tommorow
I have a pass thank you, uhh aren't all the passes free though?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

FramingPro said:


> isn't the isuldeck the floor structure itself?
> Thas not too cold :no::no:
> No i have like school or something tommorow
> I have a pass thank you, uhh aren't all the passes free though?


If I need something more than a light jacket...I'm cold


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> If I need something more than a light jacket...I'm cold



i see you why you went to cali for a few years :thumbsup:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

FramingPro said:


> :blink:
> in the doka films and other places i have heard the beams reffered to as stringers..


:laughing:

A lot of times around colums there are drop heads and or beams. Which at times will sit lower than the underside elevation of the deck. Some have downturn spandrel beams poured in place around the perimeter of the building. 


If I told you to get some super studs and e-beams. How would you do it?


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> :laughing:
> 
> A lot of times around colums there are drop heads and or beams. Which at times will sit lower than the underside elevation of the deck. Some have downturn spandrel beams poured in place around the perimeter of the building.
> 
> ...


some whats? E beams?
spandrel beam being?


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

FramingPro said:


> some whats? E beams?
> spandrel beam being?



All that being more homework. :laughing:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> All that being more homework. :laughing:


well i know what they are now. 
I would get them for you if you asked :whistling
Im whipped like that


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

J.C. said:


> 4" thick round walls, flat roof and a cut out for a doorway.


keep in mind its only 18" sqaure. so 4" might be kinda beefy. :clap:


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## J.C. (Sep 28, 2009)

Ohh, you're killing me. 2-3" thick round walls, flat roof and a cut out for a doorway. I'm out of ideas after that. :laughing:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

J.C. said:


> Ohh, you're killing me. 2-3" thick round walls, flat roof and a cut out for a doorway. I'm out of ideas after that. :laughing:



i was thickening like on the second floor deck have a round cantilever with concrete braces going down into the columns but.
i want something round though so hmm :blink:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

today i went to work. Started off placing bar and what not. Concrete came..... poured had a few blows outs, when they poured the one part the concrete had been sitting in the pump so it was wet and the end of a block just blew out. and then in the windows the endcaps popped. Sure isn't a good feeling to be standing right in front of a wall as it blows out. :whistling

there was a some film crew for a promotional video on green construction or something. the filmer didn't want to come up on the tall walls so i built a little model wall and poured it...
i was supposed to crouch so it looked like a tall wall :laughing:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

That wasn't a blow out...that was a minor movement of foam, anything you repair in under a couple minutes is nothing


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> That wasn't a blow out...that was a minor movement of foam, anything you repair in under a couple minutes is nothing


:blink:
it got resolved quickly but it just blew. at the window and beside it a piece just snapped off the end of a block.
did you not need help on senlac site? Monday and tues after skool if i am needed. i will be there


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> That wasn't a blow out...that was a minor movement of foam, anything you repair in under a couple minutes is nothing


if your looking at the pics then yes that was minor , but i don't think you were there when the wall popped. a bit more then minor movement :nuke:


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Don't be a sissy.....


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## mw31 (Dec 21, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> That wasn't a blow out...that was a minor movement of foam, anything you repair in under a couple minutes is nothing


Also to be considered a blowout there has to be over a yard of concrete on the ground.:thumbsup:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

mw31 said:


> Also to be considered a blowout there has to be over a yard of concrete on the ground.:thumbsup:


What i meant by blow out is not represented in the pic. It actually blew out. 1 of the blocks.. 1/2 metre lost probably.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> your right, provided the top is supported.
> 
> You should see lintel details above openings, depending on the span and load it's carrying plus the width and height of it dictates bar size and stirrup spacing. I* did a 34' clearspan beam, 6" core, 42" high with 2 #11 bottom bars, 40d splice (call it 4' splice), #5 @ 18" o.c.H and Stirrups #4 @ 6" o.c.V, 12' from each end. The #11 just about killed me, second floor sliding them in from the outside and the splice was ridiculous consolidating it.*




What does all this mean? I get the stirrups and stuff but hats this V and H mean :blink:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

H - Horizontal
V - Vertical


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> H - Horizontal
> V - Vertical


imagine that :thumbup:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

today..
i worked with the 2 other guys and helped install the insul decking and shoring, I tied a fair bit of bar. I know that i would not enjoy being a robuster :whistling. Tomorrow is pour day. Maybe ill get to pour some :thumbup:


yea, :thumbup:

these decks are gonna be covered in limestone and be the roof over the section below. Its gonna be interesting to see how they waterproof this


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> Your beams should terminate on top of the columns. A d your slab on the top of the columns is to thin. 1" of concrete is not structural enough. Next time instead of nails or rebar try chicken wire it should be enough to demonstrate what would happen.


i had the deflection rating of a 2" slab but the shear rating of a 1"


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

FramingPro said:


> i had the deflection rating of a 2" slab but the shear rating of a 1"


You need to get yourself this book. Maybe get Chris to buy it for you on a condition of employment. :laughing:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> You need to get yourself this book. Maybe get Chris to buy it for you on a condition of employment. :laughing:


right now im reading concrete formwork third edition by leonard koel.
Its odd. all my books out from the library are about concrete.  FHB foundation book and what not.
By no means have i lost interest in framing its just now i have read all the framing books and get them so..


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Hey Nick isn't it all framing:whistling but now you're framing boxes for giving concrete shape. It is all important parts of building:thumbsup:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Hey Nick isn't it all framing:whistling but now you're framing boxes for giving concrete shape. It is all important parts of building:thumbsup:


i guess so. concrete forming is just interesting to me.
Its like framing but after you pour concrete you wreck it.
I don't like demo. but pouring concrete is always exciting.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

what is pencil rod and how do you use it as form ties..
Im reading in my forming book that if you need to form an irregular section of wall you can use pencil rod and bolts. I guess you just drill holes. put the rod in and put big washers. of course using a spacer?


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