# Deep Mortar Joint Brick Wash (Slurry, Sack, Lime, White???)



## stucceaux

I have a client who's looking to achieve a brick wash...

We've suggested a colored cement wash and a white wash so far but the customer once a mix the two. 

The top is the cement wash with Argos cement ivory buff.

The bottom is a white wash thinned out.

The problem we're having is that the mortar joints are deep so the affect we're trying to achieve is lackluster.

I've attached a picture of the samples and a picture of what the customer wants. What they don't want is paint or stucco, the bottom they aren't liking the definitive shape/shadow of the brick.

Any suggestion is beneficial at this point in time... Thanks in advance


----------



## JBM

You need to flat joint those brick first.

Look at lime paints, or lime slurries. Not sure it's what they want but in the right hands can be made to look fantastic.


----------



## heavyc

Super odd to see the slab exposed. I guess you see something new every day. Wonder who put that slab on grade? Maybe the landscapers ran out of fill. 
They'll be a lot of man hours in tucking all those raked joints flush. Kinda odd experiment on HO's wall with the stucco look. All you have to do is clean all the brick in that area as joints are definitely flushed?


----------



## stucceaux

That's behind the garage in the side yard... No one sees it. 

It's a common stucco wash down in these parts.


----------



## heavyc

I'd recommend a pointing/ grout gun if you have the entire house to do. The bottom photo looks pretty similar to the HO's request. What's wrong with the brick in place, they don't look very old.


----------



## Tscarborough

You just need to make the wash a little thicker. When we make washed brick, we use 1 to 1 white Portland to type S lime, add 1-2 parts very fine white sand, and you should be able to get the buildup in the joints while keeping it relatively thin on the face of the brick.

What I would tell them, though, is that they are reducing the resale value of their house by a pretty large amount, and if they do not plan on dieing in the home they should not do it. You do that when when the builder used cheap ass crap brick, not Chicago commons.


----------



## heavyc

The window and the door look new. Is this a renovation or a flip? Could be more money than cents/sense?


----------



## stucceaux

More of a modernization / facelift than anything
Not a flip, there to stay.
Windows are new - doors existing


----------



## dom-mas

I agree, thicker mix or what about 2 coats?


----------



## stucceaux

dom-mas said:


> I agree, thicker mix or what about 2 coats?


I feel like 2 coats is going to be just like running stucco finish over a brick substrate - thick, thick.

The problem we're having is that the mortar joints are deep, so the affect we're trying to achieve (right picture) with brick definition is lackluster and the result is thick application (which the HO doesn't find appealing - _they don't like the top sample because it looks too much like a thick stucco coat, and they don't like the bottom sample because it looks to much like paint with shadows casting on the brick - they want a mixture of the two, like the second picture attached_).

We may try thinning the top sample argos ivory buff down to solely fill the joints, and hopefully the brick doesn't suck the argos dry to where we don't have desired coverage.


----------



## dom-mas

Well I don;t do stucco or any other sort of a finish like it so that's about all I got. 

Good luck


----------



## JBM

dancing around the problem will just cause an unsatisfactory job. Fill the joints and you can put a thin wash on it.


----------



## Fouthgeneration

Charge for the extra labor and materials, Maybe double check they are solvent even if they lower the house's resale value....:whistling

Here you can just check mortgage filings/liens yourself at the County Courthouse...

If forced I'd sponge float the joints in with a fine mortar, then white wash....


----------



## stucceaux

Fouthgeneration said:


> Here you can just check mortgage filings/liens yourself at the County Courthouse...


???


----------



## stucceaux

JBM said:


> dancing around the problem will just cause an unsatisfactory job. Fill the joints and you can put a thin wash on it.


 not trying to dance around anything... trying to get cost together for a mason or a laborer to grout bag 2625SF... thought of filling the joints with the argos one pass, and then lightly skimming over the face of the brick second pass, as well.

this look is popular in southern louisiana... plenty new and updated homes are going fast with these looks. to each is own.


----------



## fjn

JBM said:


> dancing around the problem will just cause an unsatisfactory job. Fill the joints and you can put a thin wash on it.






Just some trivia revolving around the brick. I'M about 99.9% sure those brick are used Chicago commons. Back in the day (prior to the EPA shutting the plant in '81) we laid a gazillion of those brick new. Because the buildings in and around Chicago are shoehorned in,almost all of the work was done overhand as opposed to the more common offhand work so prevalent today. As a result of several factors,need for more hefty bed joints (9,s or O,s on spacing rule) the brick was very,very seldom round jointed. The work was trowel struck,again easier on overhand work. That is in itself almost a lost art . We always discouraged clients from wanting round or V jointing. We would jokingly say you need the business end of a ball bat to strike them and the finished wall will look like a course of brick and a course of mortar. That is what you are up against,the course of mortar.:laughing: Also,that held true in new work,now that the brick is salvaged and the arris are rounded it exacerbates the problem. FILL THE JOINTS.


----------



## Fouthgeneration

Stuccoaxe @ 15? Collecting on remodeling is always harder when you're lowering the value of the unit in most potential buyers opinions.

Thus, ability to pay and avoiding buyers' remorse is extra important on any job that decreases the market value of building on the owner's 'whims'.

Coating a brick veneer with any product that has a greater maintenance cost is silly, Following architectural fads more so.


----------



## stucceaux

Fouthgeneration said:


> Stuccoaxe @ 15? Collecting on remodeling is always harder when you're lowering the value of the unit in most potential buyers opinions.
> 
> Thus, ability to pay and avoiding buyers' remorse is extra important on any job that decreases the market value of building on the owner's 'whims'.
> 
> Coating a brick veneer with any product that has a greater maintenance cost is silly, Following architectural fads more so.


Please Share some articles backing that up. Opinions on the Internet are taken with such high regard, because "everything you read on Internet message boards is 100% factual and true" and never just someone's opinion.... 

This is a facelift, where they are there to stay not looking to make a buck, rather spend it. 

Again, to each is own. show me what's "in" in the Midwest right now.


----------



## fjn

Stucceaux; I would not give a seconds thought about "devaluing" your clients home. This home had a lime wash applied many years ago,look closely at the photos under the portico,the remnants are quite pronounced there. I do not think it lost a penny of value.:laughing: By the way,it is in the mid-west,Wheaton Illinois.



https://www.google.com/search?q=can...ChMImq2wveKpxwIViUKSCh3ZtQEo&biw=1366&bih=643


----------



## fjn

Heck,they even white washed some historic brick from Fort Sumter,and Appomattox Virginia on that house,the owner was not scared about it cutting its value.:laughing:



https://www.google.com/search?q=pho...oTCODir6XlqccCFQNKkgodxwUCLw&biw=1366&bih=643


----------



## Fouthgeneration

Stuccoeuax: @ 18? House with bare brick, tuck point, 50-100 years, House with painted brick, paint every 7-10 years for EVER till you sand blast..... 

which is cheaper to own? What will look good even during multi-year depressions when owners can't spend any $ on maintenance?

Similar to cabinetry, painted cabinets might be in style for a few years out of every generation, But cabinets built from saw lumber with classic molding and design and finishes far exceed the value or painted saw dust or even painted wood cabinets. IMO. and most of the Western world.
FJN @ 19-20: Any wall laid with lime based mortar is always a little "white washed" by the unbonded lime washing out of the mortar.

When the lime laid brick appear nearly spotless, its time for tuckpointing.

On further thinking, I can see how different trades can have different views on value and only doing projects that add value to the customer.


----------



## Tscarborough

Fourth, many, if not most. upscale houses in mid to Southern Louisiana have some areas of painted/limed brick. It is vernacular. 

I still think that a slurry that can be built up to 3/8"+/- is the easiest way.


----------



## fjn

Fouthgeneration;3397961
FJN @ 19-20: Any wall laid with lime based mortar is always a little "white washed" by the unbonded lime washing out of the mortar.
[/QUOTE said:


> That is true,however,that is a far cry from the wash applied to the home I posted pictures of. How do I know? I have been inside and outside of it no less than 10 times in my life. Know the history of the owners and home like the back of my hand. I can tell you beyond a shadow of doubt,the house had a wash applied and the owners never suffered a loss of value by a penny. Again for the record,the home is in the heart of the mid-west Wheaton Illinois.That is about as mid-west as they come.


----------



## stuart45

Fouthgeneration said:


> FJN @ 19-20: Any wall laid with lime based mortar is always a little "white washed" by the unbonded lime washing out of the mortar.


The link posted by fjn has been lime washed for sure. 
There are loads of lime mortar buildings in my area, and the brickwork looks spotless to me, regardless of whether it needs repointing or not.
The only one I've seen that was a bit messy in town was when the mortar wasn't mixed up for long enough and looked after properly. When it dried really white was a good clue there would be problems.


----------



## fjn

Here is a video you may find helpful. Learn something new every day. I never saw the usage of a viscosity tester before in such an application.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52AT130z5xo


----------



## Fouthgeneration

Southern Louisiana, Isn't My idea of style on anything, except gumbo recipes


----------



## stucceaux

http://www.aljonesarchitect.com/let-the-character-shine-through-our-whitewash-recipe-revealed/


----------

