# Union vs Non Union Workers



## aWorkaHolic (Oct 1, 2007)

Before I start ranting, I will all let you know I was once a Union Carpenter..

I am a GC and on the end build of a retail remodel. My None-Union Electrician had been working hard to bring up this store to code. Called in for a cover inspection and we fail do to existing wiring that had nothing to do with our build. No big deal.

I get with the management company and explain to them what had transpired. Again no big deal.

They call out their preferred "Union" Electrical company and start to correct all their wiring. Again No big deal!

Then all hell breaks loose!!!!!

What the "F" are these union electricians doing????? Rather then doing the work they were called out on all they wanted to do was bash on the non-union electricians on site!

So I get to the job site and ask everyone whats going on and this union guy proceeds to lecture me on not using a union shop and how all non-union guys are all hack workers bla bla bla.

I had to put this guy in his place and kick him of the job site. The Building Management calls me up and tells me I can't do that. " We subbed out that company,bla bla bla, and I had no right to kick them out of the retail store.

The next day, I met with the Electrical Inspector. Failed again on the cover inspection. So I asked the Inspector to point out the area that need to be corrected. Sure enough it was in the area the Union Guy was working at.

It's all fixed up and the build has been completed but it still astonishes me about Union Employees.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Fortuneatly not all union workers are jerks. But some are. This discussions been had before. There is good and bad in all walks of life, union or not.

And labeling a worker a hack just because he's non-union is uncalled for every bit as much as a non-union worker calling the union guy a lazy blank. In the end you get what you pay for (most of the time).


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

So you are going to paint all union workers with a broad brush based on a bad experience?


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## aWorkaHolic (Oct 1, 2007)

All so true. I wish guys would just respect one another on job sites. It's a ***** being a GC. I need a drink!


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## aWorkaHolic (Oct 1, 2007)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> So you are going to paint all union workers with a broad brush based on a bad experience?


Absolutely not. It just makes my Job harder when jerks come out like that.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

aWorkaHolic said:


> All so true. I wish guys would just respect one another on job sites. It's a ***** being a GC. I need a drink!


On about half of our jobs, we are the only union sub, and the only union trade on the job, and I get no complaints from the GC's about the quality of work.


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## aWorkaHolic (Oct 1, 2007)

Thats great Killer. I've used union shops allot and never had any issues. I'm just thinking that this particular guy was either a failed contractor or was green.


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## shed-n-deck (Sep 25, 2007)

I've known a lot more non-union carpenters than union carpenters. Of the non-union carpenters, most have been relatively talented carpenters. Of the union carpenters, most are overrated form setters that couldn't tell you what the difference between a shaper and a joiner. Not to say that there are no talented union carpenters, but from my recollection, the odds are stacked against non-union. I don't know about any other trades, well, except Automotive, and non-union was far better than UAW in that case. I guess that union, while being paid a good wage, do more production type repetitive work, while in situations that I am familiar with, the non-union worker uses more improvisation skills....Although, most union production work is being outsourced nowadays anyhow.

I should add that manufactured housing is produced by union workers, while most residential is non-union.

The reason that I think this is not because a union worker isn't necessarily less capable than non-union, but more because of what is expected out of each. A union worker might be required to do a certain job, and if asked to do another, he could say "That isn't my job", whereas, a non-union worker would be fired for saying such a thing. So basically, union workers know what they know, and they know it quite well, whereas, non-union workers know what they know, and a lot of things they shouldn't know.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

...


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## shed-n-deck (Sep 25, 2007)

JustaFramer said:


> You don't improvise a job when it is spec'd the way a architect draws it.


And how often does that work out?




JustaFramer said:


> The reason "they say I don't do it" is because that is another trades job. There are agreements between the trade unions as who does what.


Obviously that's not the case. I have seen a form setter turn down a job that required him to set temporary footings...He wouldn't do it.

Now I am not intending on offending anyone, I'm only expressing what I have noted.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

...


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

aWorkaHolic said:


> Before I start ranting, I will all let you know I was once a Union Carpenter..
> 
> I am a GC and on the end build of a retail remodel. My None-Union Electrician had been working hard to bring up this store to code. Called in for a cover inspection and we fail do to existing wiring that had nothing to do with our build. No big deal.
> 
> ...


You should have used a non-union electrician.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

JustaFramer said:


> So one guy starts the non-union vs union. :laughing:
> 
> I have a similar problem with a non-union excavation company. That tried telling me that I needed to make eye contact with the skid steer operator. I told the mfer that if he wants to drive a skid steer in the building he better ****ing put up danger tape and candle sticks where he he is driving.
> Plus I had high vis on.


You should have used a union excavation company.


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## aWorkaHolic (Oct 1, 2007)

mickeyco said:


> You should have used a non-union electrician.


I was the one that subbed the "Non-Union" company. The property management company brought in the union shop to bring the rest of the "Pre-Existing" wiring to code.


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## shed-n-deck (Sep 25, 2007)

JustaFramer said:


> May be the formsetter didn't want the job. I don't know I don't just frame or set forms. I look for the remodel/renovation jobs.


Me too...Maybe I was too quick to whip the tongue, and if I offended you, I apologize...That wasn't my intention. It's just my opinion as of yet, and as an opinion, it can be changed...


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## nadonailer (Nov 15, 2005)

The unions again :furious: Never met one I liked. Buncha whiners. If they could get a real job they should - they can't....


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

nadonailer said:


> The unions again :furious: Never met one I liked. Buncha whiners. If they could get a real job they should - they can't....


stole my thoughts, addiitonally all they care about is plastering thier hardhats with stickers, some kind of badge of honor or something


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Anytime ya let the monkey drive the car expect to crash ......Union or not.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

...


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

JustaFramer said:


> I am sure your kids would love to go to a old asbesto lead filled school.



Would that be:
- Before working in the coal mine
- After working in the coal mine
- Instead of working in the coal mine

....canary optional.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Unions need a different mantra than "what we did in the past" sorry, that was then this is now...these days they are shooting themselves in the foot.

I'll take the canary please...


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mahlere said:


> I'll take the canary please...


..the canary died.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Celtic said:


> ..the canary died.


what happened, he sang?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mahlere said:


> what happened, he sang?


Nah...the fat kid farted


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## Andy in ATL (Aug 17, 2007)

I'm currently reading Allen Greenspans autobiography....in it he talks about "creative destruction"... Definitely non-union.:whistling


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Celtic said:


> Nah...the fat kid farted


why's it always gotta be the fat kid?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mahlere said:


> why's it always gotta be the fat kid?


It's gotta be somebody...


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Celtic said:


> It's gotta be somebody...


why can't it be the skinny kid?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mahlere said:


> why can't it be the skinny kid?


Because he blows away :laughing:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Celtic said:


> Because he blows away :laughing:


no...it's because he's union and it's not his job:shifty:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mahlere said:


> no...it's because he's union and it's not his job:shifty:


I don't get it?
Only fat non-union kids fart?


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## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

mahlere said:


> no...it's because he's union and it's not his job:shifty:


Is the fat kid fat because he's non-union and he doesn't work enough so he sits back and eats?


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## curapa (Oct 8, 2007)

The union workers I know are nothing more than failed carpenters that do not deserve the money they are paid.

Not to say they are all like that......:whistling


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

,,,


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

curapa said:


> Not to say they are all like that......:whistling


ditto


JustaFramer said:


> Funny any one see the Union shop electrian ad for Titan Electric? :laughing:
> 
> Local outfit.
> 
> Their coming to get you aWorkaHolic.


I've been on both sides of the fence, and seen the good, the bad and the ugly. its guys like you make unions look bad:thumbsup:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

...


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## aWorkaHolic (Oct 1, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Nah...the fat kid farted
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kapena (Aug 20, 2004)

JustaFramer said:


> I am sure your kids would love to go to a old asbesto lead filled school.



It might have been a union builder that installed all that asbestos and lead to begin with.


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

JustaFramer said:


> Sure I do.
> Because I was ribbing the guy. I thought it was ironic that a ad for a union shop was displayed on top of the this thread.
> 
> just go delete your posts ...... :thumbsup:


and I'm ribbing you for your overzealous, patronizing approach to all these union/scab threads. In 2.5 years of reading your posts ranging from arguing all logic and reason with members who are seasoned carps, seasoned contractors/scabs, engineers at el. to why framers get no respect, In fact didn't your just jump ship recently? couldn't control overhead and margins? couldnt market effectively? couldn't sell enough swept range hoods??? and now this this union chest thumping thing. I've worked closely with union on tons of jobs and for the most part met some great guys with mutual respect and none of the negative things typically associated with unions, then there were the little girls, the whiners and complainers, the chest thumpers, the everybody owes me something crowd etc etc... which one are you dildo???


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mahlere said:


> well, if it makes you feel better...tomorrow is hayride and pie day...the boy is feeling better..


I feel better for the boy, but you, dear Sir, are still a Hoover.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Celtic said:


> I feel better for the boy, but you, dear Sir, are still a Hoover.


yeah...well...you're a Kirby...


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

I think ya both suck:laughing::jester:


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## DREWALAN3 (Oct 3, 2007)

FIRST OF ALL MICKY TAKE THAT MONKEY LOOKING @^%&$ OUT OF HERE. I HAVE BEEN UNION FOR 8 YEARS I WORK JUST ENOUGH HOURS TO GET MY HEALTH AND WELFARE AND KEEP MY RET. THE REST OF THE TIME I AM A NON UNION LICENSED CONTRACTOR. I AM KNOWN BY BASICLY BY ALL MAJ COMPANIES OUT HERE. I AM NOT A HALL RAT. TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH UNION COMPANIES ARE JUST AS MUCH AS HACKS AS NON UNION COMPANIES OUT HERE. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE INSPECTORS ARE MORE STRICT AND THE STUPERINTENDENTS ARE MORE STRICT. I HELP BUILD FROM CAL. ADVENTURE TO THE CASINOS TO THE ALAMEDA COORADOR FROM THE FREEWAYS TO THE PORTS. IF THE UNION WERE NOT AS MUCH AS THIEVES AS THEY ARE, AND REALLY WORKED FOR THE WORKING MAN I WOULD SUPPORT THEM. THEY ARE NOT AND STEAL OUR MONEY WITHOUT SHAME. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE UNION LIKES YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE A STRONG BACK AND A WEAK MIND. WHAT SEPERATES THE WORKING MAN IS ONE WHO TAKES PRIDE IN HIMSELF AS MUCH AS HIS WORK, UNION OR NON UNION.


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## joey71 (Feb 25, 2007)

This is all the same banter on the union and non-union business!!!

I work union just for the simple facts that they provide health, annuity, pension and recourse for all of the GC's out there when they wish not to pay. However the union is nothing more than a corporate entity stealing money from every member!! DOESNT MEAN IAM LAZY, STUPID or MINDLESS!! It is what I choose -- 

I enjoy union work because we get the large jobs most are well organized and there are contractors that care if I go home in one peice-- However I have done non-union lately and it is pretty insane from a safety stand point, running metabos with no guards (ask for the guard and you get razzed upon), perry scaffolds stacked 3 high with no outriggers, guys that do not have a clue on how to weld a simple arc pass-- 

I get paid well through the union on the non union side I get $20 an hour (ask yourself honestly is 20 an hour good money?) I can do anything you ask me to on the interiors except walk stilts, I can run 1500 square ft of grid in 7.25 hrs, hang 48 sheets of 12' 5/8 rock also in 7.25 hrs-- 

On the exterior I have set forms, worked on piling crews, set guard rails and swung from ropes 125 ft in the air to set gutters, I can run any type of articulating lift or scissor lift, and tell you the difference between a shaper and a joiner and teach you how to change the bits and blades, I can set a HM frame, have the 3/0 slab swung, lockset with closer done in under an hour -- Why because the union has taught me the foundation on how to be productive, quality conscience and safe! 


I am proud at the talent that the union has taugh and assisted me with I have learned alot from the older guys and the teachers through my apprenticeship (WOW 12 yrs ago!!)-- 

I have never told any contractor that I worked for that its not my job-- however if I cannot do the job to the standard of what is expected I will not do it!! 

I do not want a freaking plumber, tinknocker, sprink fitter nor an electrician building my walls or cutting my plywood!! THAT IS MY JOB AND MY WORK!!!The Non union cat that I work for now is just hurry hurry hurry!! Great guy but he has to make a living also!! --I HAVE MOUTHS TO FEED AND I WILL DO WHAT IT TAKES!!!


So keep ranting and screaming about union and non-union, just remember everyone has to make a living some choose to be professional and others choose the easy way doesnt matter if it non or union theres [email protected]@ Holes on both sides of the fence. 

After 15 yrs in the trade there are all types and most of the comments here have proved that-- take a look at yourself before you banter against the other!!!!!!!
Take care of you and yours and stay safe-- Joe


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

joey71 said:


> This is all the same banter on the union and non-union business!!! I work union just for the simple facts that they provide health, annuity, pension and recourse for all of the GC's out there when they wish not to pay. However the union is nothing more than a corporate entity stealing money from every member!! DOESNT MEAN IAM LAZY, STUPID or MINDLESS!! It is what I choose -- I enjoy union work because we get the large jobs most are well organized and there are contractors that care if I go home in one peice-- However I have done non-union lately and it is pretty insane from a safety stand point, running metabos with no guards (ask for the guard and you get razzed upon), perry scaffolds stacked 3 high with no outriggers, guys that do not have a clue on how to weld a simple arc pass-- I get paid well through the union on the non union side I get $20 an hour (ask yourself honestly is 20 an hour good money?) I can do anything you ask me to on the interiors except walk stilts, I can run 1500 square ft of grid in 7.25 hrs, hang 48 sheets of 12' 5/8 rock also in 7.25 hrs-- on the exterior I have set forms, worked on piling crews, set guard rails and swung from ropes 125 ft in the air to set gutters, I can run any type of articulating lift or scissor lift, and tell you the difference between a shaper and a joiner and teach you how to change the bits and blades, I can set a HM frame, have the 3/0 slab swung, lockset with closer done in under an hour -- why because the union has taught me the foundation on how to be productive, quality conscience and safe!
> I am proud at the talent that the union has taugh and assisted me with I have learned alot from the older guys and the teachers through my apprenticeship (WOW 12 yrs ago!!)-- I have never told any contractor that I worked for that its not my job-- however if I cannot do the job to the standard of what is expected I will not do it!! I do not want a freaking plumber, tinknocker, sprink fitter nor an electrician building my walls or cutting my plywood!! THAT IS MY JOB AND MY WORK!!!The Non union cat that I work for now is just hurry hurry hurry!! Great guy but he has to make a living also!! --I HAVE MOUTHS TO FEED AND I WILL DO WHAT IT TAKES!!!
> So keep ranting and screaming about union and non-union, just remember everyone has to make a living some choose to be professional and others choose the easy way doesnt matter if it non or union theres [email protected]@ Holes on both sides of the fence. After 15 yrs in the trade there are all types and most of the comments here have proved that-- take a look at yourself before you banter against the other!!!!!!!
> Take care of you and yours and stay safe-- Joe


That's very interesting, Joe, but you might find more people would read it if you put more paragraph breaks and line returns in, just makes it a bit easier to read

John


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