# Grout - Color Issue



## Reggie Died (Dec 23, 2010)

We are just finishing up a job (upper floor update; 2 bathrooms and 3 bedrooms). 

In one of the bathrooms, we laid grey ceramic floor tile, and used a marble mosaic around a drop in tub (all three sides exterior walls). 

The grout color for the tub surround was never specced. After grouting the floor with Polyblend grout, the HO said she wanted the same color for the tub surround.

Unfortunately, the tub surround dried to a completely different color. After the floor was grouted, we weren't left with enough grout for the entire tub surround, so purchased another bag (from the same tile distributor in the same dye lot) and mixed the remaining.

Few questions: 

A) what might have caused this? I was hoping that the grout was just drying slowly (due to being one exterior walls we never touched, so never re-insulated). We also sealed the marble before grouting, which also might have affected the outcome.

B) is there an easy(er) fix other than removing grout and re-grouting? I've seen people use grout dye/grout renew, but have no experience with it? We are wanting to lighten the grout colour.

Cheers,


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

1) Just say no; don't change it. Grouts (especially portland cement grouts) are natural/variable materials, and you can waste a lot of time pursuing a match. Are you going to make up some custom mix to match the floor and from now till the end of time make custom batches for fixes and changes? If you've bought the same color from the same manufacturer, you've done the best you can expect to do, unless they are willing to pay for your time and materials to chase the perfect match.
2) Why on earth does anyone still use cement grouts in bathrooms (or just about anywhere) any more? Epoxy and urethane grouts are much more expensive, but it's the easiest sale in the world - they never need to be sealed, and they'll look like new 15 years after you install the tile. I know that there are all sorts of great sealers (a couple folks here have had success and recommend them) but the epoxies and urethanes simply work for everyone, including the worst, no-maintenance slob. Rant over.

Don't do it.


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## Reggie Died (Dec 23, 2010)

I'll have to look into the epoxy and urethane grouts for our next project. 

I am no longer looking to match. Floor grout was spec'd to "Winter Grey" by Polyblend. Home owner said she wanted to match the tub surround grout with floor grout. Now that it is significant darker than the floor, she would like white. The marble pieces in the mosaic vary from grey to white.

I'm also just curious as to how/why it may have happened, so I can learn from it. As you said, being a portland cement base, it's possible that the floor had more eflloresence in the mix than the wall (floor used half of a 10 lb box, wall used the second half + 1/4 of another box, from same dye lot/distributor). But I'm also wondering if the sealed marble vs the unsealed ceramic absorbed the moisture from the grout differently. Grout was installed by the same setter, and she's pretty anal about her mix and slake time consistency.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

CarpenterSFO said:


> 1) Just say no; don't change it. Grouts (especially portland cement grouts) are natural/variable materials, and you can waste a lot of time pursuing a match. Are you going to make up some custom mix to match the floor and from now till the end of time make custom batches for fixes and changes? If you've bought the same color from the same manufacturer, you've done the best you can expect to do, unless they are willing to pay for your time and materials to chase the perfect match. 2) Why on earth does anyone still use cement grouts in bathrooms (or just about anywhere) any more? Epoxy and urethane grouts are much more expensive, but it's the easiest sale in the world - they never need to be sealed, and they'll look like new 15 years after you install the tile. I know that there are all sorts of great sealers (a couple folks here have had success and recommend them) but the epoxies and urethanes simply work for everyone, including the worst, no-maintenance slob. Rant over. Don't do it.


I haven't used cement based grouts for 6-7 years. Spectralock has been my standard grout ever since. Not only is it the best performing grout (like urethane!) I also find them easier to install. You never have to worry about mixing different batches too dry or too wet, no worries about blotchy colours, and, one grout does all... No more sanded / unsanded.
Btw...liked your rant! Lol


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Why on earth does anyone still use cement grouts in bathrooms (or just about anywhere) any more?


My thoughts exactly.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

most of our jobs are "still" with cement grouts, never had a problem in 30 +yrs.
We only use the resin grouts in commercial kitchens, baths, and only when asked for.
Some of the old ways are still the best,


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

brunothedog said:


> most of our jobs are "still" with cement grouts, never had a problem in 30 +yrs.
> We only use the resin grouts in commercial kitchens, baths, and only when asked for.
> Some of the old ways are still the best,


And some are just stuck in their old ways and refuse to recognize the benefits of the new ways.

The fact is cementious grouts will stain and customers do not properly care for it. Why not give them a grout that won't stain and that is practically zero maintenance?


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> And some are just stuck in their old ways and refuse to recognize the benefits of the new ways.
> 
> The fact is cementious grouts will stain and customers do not properly care for it. Why not give them a grout that won't stain and that is practically zero maintenance?


my work should speak for itself, we do use it but only when called for,
btw, maybe you's have a sub grade grout, i dunno?
nevr had the problems with cement grouts that i have read on this forum.

or maybe, you's dont how how to use them :whistling


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

brunothedog said:


> my work should speak for itself, we do use it but only when called for,
> btw, maybe you's have a sub grade grout, i dunno?
> nevr had the problems with cement grouts that i have read on this forum.
> 
> or maybe, you's dont how how to use them :whistling


Mapei is hardly sub grade.

And I don't think I said anything about you having installation problems. I just addressed the fact that you are installing an inferior product that will stain and requires maintenance. Urethanes and Epoxy only require regular cleaning as with anything in life.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Mapei is hardly sub grade.
> 
> And I don't think I said anything about you having installation problems. I just addressed the fact that you are installing an inferior product that will stain and requires maintenance. Urethanes and Epoxy only require regular cleaning as with anything in life.


I am only pointing out that epoxy grouts we use only when needed,
kitchens rarely, even bathrooms we use them rarely, very.
And 100% of kitchens here are tile or stone.
We dont know what carpet is


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

brunothedog said:


> I am only pointing out that epoxy grouts we use only when needed,
> kitchens rarely, even bathrooms we use them rarely, very.
> And 100% of kitchens here are tile or stone.
> We dont know what carpet is


Right but you said some of the old was are still the BEST, which isn't true. 

It is better to install epoxy or urethane in a wet area than a cementious grout. So the best way is to install the best product.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

If they don't want to pay for the upgrade (eg. when selling house, etc.), they get the standard grout. I used to try to build it in, but some folks are just too tight on the price.

As for color consistency, I mix it a little bit thicker, definitely let it slake as directed (which often gets conveniently forgotten), and force-fill the joints, as necessary (and a bit more) . Wring the hell out of the sponge before I go over it, too. A wet sponge washes out the pigment way too easily.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> If they don't want to pay for the upgrade (eg. when selling house, etc.), they get the standard grout. I used to try to build it in, but some folks are just too tight on the price.
> 
> As for color consistency, I mix it a little bit thicker, definitely let it slake as directed (which often gets conveniently forgotten), and force-fill the joints, as necessary (and a bit more) . Wring the hell out of the sponge before I go over it, too. A wet sponge washes out the pigment way too easily.


Selling a house, maybe. But if they are staying, no way. Once I started using epoxy and urethanes, there was no going back. Most bathrooms we do $300 covers the grout and explaining that it won't stain and they don't have to ever seal it, the stuff sells itself.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Bruno, I've been doing bathrooms for over 25 years and the number one complaint I've heard with regards to tile is grout issues. Epoxies and urethanes negate those issues. However, I like the fact a lot of contractors don't recommend them...makes my job to sell them that much easier!


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## cath8r (May 2, 2014)

I only used epoxy grout in select commercial applications. The haze it leaves would never fly in residential. This is with laticrete epoxy and following instructions exactly.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

cath8r said:


> I only used epoxy grout in select commercial applications. The haze it leaves would never fly in residential. This is with laticrete epoxy and following instructions exactly.


If you install it correctly haze isn't an issue. I have used epoxy a lot in residential. I switched to Urethane and the same rules follow. If you clean it well while you are installing, and don't do large of an area, you shouldn't have that much haze.


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## cath8r (May 2, 2014)

'Shouldn't have that much haze'... that little bit of haze has been an issue on some commercial jobs and wouldn't fly in residential.I don't know what part of following directions exactly would cause it. Never had these problems with traditional grout.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

The one time we almost had haze problems with epoxy was the first time, working on too large an area. Since then, never a problem. That one time was on a backsplash with glossy tiles, and the haze got razored off. Epoxy and urethane are about all we do, commercial and residential, except in wide-grout saltillo and the like.

We just finished a flame-finish granite tile floor - pretty much the poster child for difficulty of clean-up for epoxy, and it came out perfectly.

My tile mechanic does hate it, though; I usually send him back for another round of clean-up with epoxy.


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## Evan1968 (Dec 5, 2010)

Reggie,
I figured i would try and help you out a bit regarding your actual question about the grout not matching. Seems like everyone has dropped their pants and has tape measures out.:cheesygri:cheesygri


Polyblend you say? There is your answer right there. Very inconsistent grout even when you mix according to directions. That's the nature of Polyblend.

Everyone can get back to talking about haze,epoxy, urethane or whatever didn't pertain to the OP question.

Its like the wild wild west here sometimes...thats why i like it!:thumbsup:


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## Reggie Died (Dec 23, 2010)

Evan1968 said:


> Reggie,
> I figured i would try and help you out a bit regarding your actual question about the grout not matching. Seems like everyone has dropped their pants and has tape measures out.:cheesygri:cheesygri
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Evan. Hindsight is always 20/20...had I known they wanted the same grout on the tub surround, I would have gotten a 25lb bag and be done with it. I TRIED mixing the leftover from the floor, but obviously it wasn't enough.

The rest of the comments were a real eye opener. We have used epoxy on a few shower pans where it's required (little pebble tiles....PITA!) but I'll have to start doing some research into it. 

I've had good success with Ardex grout for darker colors. Tends to be a much more consistent color.


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## Evan1968 (Dec 5, 2010)

If you want to stick with a cement based grout try Permacolor from Laticrete. Da bomb!
http://www.laticrete.com/contractors/products/grouts/cementitious_grouts/productid/50.aspx


If your in a epoxy mood the SpectraLoc is the way to go. 
http://www.laticrete.com/contractors/products/grouts/epoxy_grouts/productid/47.aspx


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

cath8r said:


> 'Shouldn't have that much haze'... that little bit of haze has been an issue on some commercial jobs and wouldn't fly in residential.I don't know what part of following directions exactly would cause it. Never had these problems with traditional grout.


I've never had much haze and when I did I just cleaned it up.

Again enough haze to get noticed like that means you need to do a better job on installation. You are working to large of an area, not wiping it down well enough and not replacing your water enough.

Also get your tiles damp before grouting.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Evan1968 said:


> Reggie,
> I figured i would try and help you out a bit regarding your actual question about the grout not matching. Seems like everyone has dropped their pants and has tape measures out.:cheesygri:cheesygri
> 
> Polyblend you say? There is your answer right there. Very inconsistent grout even when you mix according to directions. That's the nature of Polyblend.
> ...


I know it's a difficult concept but conversations evolve. The recommendation was to not use cementious grouts. That turned into a bit of a discussion on that topic. Some misinformation had to be addressed.

It's just like real life. I know crazy, right.


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## BigPoppa (Apr 30, 2014)

We prefer old fashioned grouts more than the epoxies in most residential applications. Our bathing alcoves are waterproofed then tiled, cement grouts are porous which allows the back side of the tile to breathe while an epoxy will seal that wall right in. You must assume water will infiltrate behind the tile at some point and you must allow for that water to go somewhere else. The most trouble we have ever had in this industry is when we started sealing things up too tight. In my opinion people have to get off thier behinds and do a little maintenance to thier homes now and then. We even teach them how to mix a small amount and finger in joints etc. and we always leave the leftovers for that future purpose.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BigPoppa said:


> We prefer old fashioned grouts more than the epoxies in most residential applications. Our bathing alcoves are waterproofed then tiled, cement grouts are porous which allows the back side of the tile to breathe while an epoxy will seal that wall right in. You must assume water will infiltrate behind the tile at some point and you must allow for that water to go somewhere else. The most trouble we have ever had in this industry is when we started sealing things up too tight. In my opinion people have to get off thier behinds and do a little maintenance to thier homes now and then. We even teach them how to mix a small amount and finger in joints etc. and we always leave the leftovers for that future purpose.


But because they are porous they allow soap and dirt to discolor and stain. Not something routine maintenance and cleaning will cure.

I like not having to leave instructions on how to repair my work.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

BigPoppa said:


> We prefer old fashioned grouts more than the epoxies in most residential applications. Our bathing alcoves are waterproofed then tiled, cement grouts are porous which allows the back side of the tile to breathe while an epoxy will seal that wall right in. You must assume water will infiltrate behind the tile at some point and you must allow for that water to go somewhere else. The most trouble we have ever had in this industry is when we started sealing things up too tight. In my opinion people have to get off thier behinds and do a little maintenance to thier homes now and then. We even teach them how to mix a small amount and finger in joints etc. and we always leave the leftovers for that future purpose.


I thank you, seems like the only right way is the most expensive one, Seal it so its not breathable and it looks great? I do not believe so. The same with airtight houses, thats crap too. and which I will aways preach is not the best method.
But, who am I


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

brunothedog said:


> I thank you, seems like the only right way is the most expensive one, Seal it so its not breathable and it looks great? I do not believe so. The same with airtight houses, thats crap too. and which I will aways preach is not the best method.
> But, who am I


Someone who doesn't know as much as he thinks. It's called building science.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Someone who doesn't know as much as he thinks. It's called building science.


ok, now your just someone who knows the words, but doesn't understand their meaning.
I give by law 10 years guarantee on any and all faults of the work.
so, I guess I have just a little more into it than you.
I gutted an apartment done in the '60's and ripping out the tiles(1500sq.ft)
was a PITA, but big time. The grouting had 50+yrs and busting it up the splinters would inbed in my skin,
I am not saying that epoxy's are crap, just that many think its a do all,
trust me it isn't.
Mapei does not recommend their resin grout where not needed. keralastic is great enough in 90% of the time, 
but, who are they to know?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

brunothedog said:


> ok, now your just someone who knows the words, but doesn't understand their meaning.
> I give by law 10 years guarantee on any and all faults of the work.
> so, I guess I have just a little more into it than you.
> I gutted an apartment done in the '60's and ripping out the tiles(1500sq.ft)
> ...


We are not talking about what they recommend, but by your own words, what is BEST.

Clearly cementious grout is not best. And I will gaurantee that you are not using the same formula grout they did 50 years ago.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> We are not talking about what they recommend, but by your own words, what is BEST.
> 
> Clearly cementious grout is not best. And I will gaurantee that you are not using the same formula grout they did 50 years ago.


says you, why, and for what circumstance, FYI, extra fine sand and portland cement was used, and a few old timers still make their own grout,
You dont need a chemist to make mortar. or grout.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

brunothedog said:


> says you, why, and for what circumstance, FYI, extra fine sand and portland cement was used, and a few old timers still make their own grout,
> You dont need a chemist to make mortar. or grout.


But that's not what YOU use. You're too big of a Mapei whore to mix your own.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

The only tile material worse than cementitious grout is mastic. The very existence of this thread proves cementitious grouts have issues and are tiling's weakest link. You will never see a thread about QuartzLock color consistency problems.


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## BigPoppa (Apr 30, 2014)

Science hasn't always produced beneficial results. The world is ripe with "advances" that science has brought us and years later wisdom has a chance to catch up and says "hey, thats no good". There are tile installations that are hundreds of years old in the Tibet mountains. When epoxy has that kind of history you can argue with me again. If people would just rinse down the shower after EVERY SINGLE use, it only takes a minute, then simply clean the bathroom thoroughly on occasion then the tile would look great for many years. I encourage people to tend thier own property, if you can get them concerned and involved with thier own property then they will find work for you to do. As for me, I'm the Old Bull that walks down the hill if you know what I mean. Some of you young bucks need to lay off the caffeine.....


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I assure you, the portland grout you use today was _not_ used in Tibet.


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## BigPoppa (Apr 30, 2014)

I assure you that its not much different. New colorants etc but its still sand and cement. Those are exterior installations as well....


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BigPoppa said:


> Science hasn't always produced beneficial results. The world is ripe with "advances" that science has brought us and years later wisdom has a chance to catch up and says "hey, thats no good". There are tile installations that are hundreds of years old in the Tibet mountains. When epoxy has that kind of history you can argue with me again. If people would just rinse down the shower after EVERY SINGLE use, it only takes a minute, then simply clean the bathroom thoroughly on occasion then the tile would look great for many years. I encourage people to tend thier own property, if you can get them concerned and involved with thier own property then they will find work for you to do. As for me, I'm the Old Bull that walks down the hill if you know what I mean. Some of you young bucks need to lay off the caffeine.....


You cannot just rinse away soap. Porous means that it soaks in not just sit on the top. It would need to sit on top to be able to just rinse of.

You old farts need to keep doing what your doing so I'll have plenty of work for years to come.

I guess you don't use drywall...You definitely don't see that in the mountains of Tibet.


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## Evan1968 (Dec 5, 2010)

Well this escalated quickly.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BigPoppa said:


> I assure you that its not much different. New colorants etc but its still sand and cement. Those are exterior installations as well....


You really should read up on the history of cement. There were many changes to the process and makeup from the Romans, medieval times and as recent as 150 years ago. Today's cement is nothing like that of ancient cement.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I don't get it....


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## BigPoppa (Apr 30, 2014)

Again I will say that advances don't always advance. I'll take my old timers anyday, they can do more with a few handtools than most techs can with a trailer full of tools today. Now I'm going to talk you through this slowly so pay attention. First thing that happens is the water fills up the surface porosity of the grout then someone gets in and starts bathing, the soap sits on topof the water and is rinsed off altogether when finished. If allowed to stay then the water evaporates and the soap film is effectively sucked into the grout. Same thing when working over concrete, just wet it down before you start making a mess and the clean up is a breeze. All these new products are sold to lazy a$$ homeowners that don't want to maintain things by Manufacturers who just want to sell product. They don't care as long as it lasts longer than thier warrenty. And all your advances in cement still haven't proven any longer of a lifespan than the 100 yr old stuff.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BigPoppa said:


> Again I will say that advances don't always advance. I'll take my old timers anyday, they can do more with a few handtools than most techs can with a trailer full of tools today. Now I'm going to talk you through this slowly so pay attention. First thing that happens is the water fills up the surface porosity of the grout then someone gets in and starts bathing, the soap sits on topof the water and is rinsed off altogether when finished. If allowed to stay then the water evaporates and the soap film is effectively sucked into the grout. Same thing when working over concrete, just wet it down before you start making a mess and the clean up is a breeze. All these new products are sold to lazy a$$ homeowners that don't want to maintain things by Manufacturers who just want to sell product. They don't care as long as it lasts longer than thier warrenty. And all your advances in cement still haven't proven any longer of a lifespan than the 100 yr old stuff.


Sorry but soap isn't the only thing there. Dirt, organics, dyes....and on and on.

Epoxy and urethane grits were nit designed for lazy anyone. Again showing more of your ignorance. They were designed for commercial use. They needed something durable and non porous... and guess what? Cement based products didn't meet the standard.

Actually Portland based is chemically stronger than years ago. It's just a fact. 

And you are so wrong about all they worry about is that it lasts longer than my warranty. My tile installations will be there long past any warranty. Most will outlast me.

Exactly how do you talk through something slowly when it's written text? You're a riot.

Also you may want to discover the "carriage return" key on your keyboard, also known as the [Enter] key. It makes reading your ramblings a bit easier.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BigPoppa said:


> Again I will say that advances don't always advance.


And yet with grout, they do.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

cath8r said:


> I only used epoxy grout in select commercial applications. The haze it leaves would never fly in residential. This is with laticrete epoxy and following instructions exactly.


I've done many jobs with Laticrete epoxy and mainly do residential and do not have any issues with haze. Try using a cloth or better yet a micro fibre rag for your final wash.


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## cath8r (May 2, 2014)

Cool. Do they say that in the instructions? I've used the sponges and wash additive they include in the kit. Well, I use the sponge and about 2 extra new ones on top of the one provided. It bothers me that when I follow the directions to a 'T' the haze is an issue. Definitely gonna use the microfibre rag. Thanks again.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

cath8r said:


> Cool. Do they say that in the instructions? I've used the sponges and wash additive they include in the kit. Well, I use the sponge and about 2 extra new ones on top of the one provided. It bothers me that when I follow the directions to a 'T' the haze is an issue. Definitely gonna use the microfibre rag. Thanks again.


The problem is you don't really have time to piss around with epoxy, espicially if it's warm. It doesn't clean up like cement, you have to wipe, rinse and repeat until you get all the "gummyness" off the tiles. You can't come back the next day and just buff the crumbs off.


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## cath8r (May 2, 2014)

Im aware of the tight timeframe. I just wish the directions were more clear and better.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Google "using Snuggles laundry soap to clean epoxy grout". Check john bridge post by ktile.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

cath8r said:


> Im aware of the tight timeframe. I just wish the directions were more clear and better.


Watch the YouTube videos, if anything laticrete gives exceptional instructions.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

cath8r said:


> Im aware of the tight timeframe. I just wish the directions were more clear and better.


One more thing...with regards to time frame. In the summer months I will usually put the liquids in the fridge for about an hour before using. Slows down the curing process. 

Ok, just one more.... Keep your sponge wetter than with cement grouts... Not dripping water, just don't squeeze out as much.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

The best sponges...ever

http://www.homedepot.com/p/QEP-7-1-...and-Washing-70010Q/202549349?N=5yc1vZc38oZ34c


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

angus242 said:


> The best sponges...ever http://www.homedepot.com/p/QEP-7-1-2-x-5-1-2-x-2-in-Microfiber-Sponge-for-Grouting-Cleaning-and-Washing-70010Q/202549349?N=5yc1vZc38oZ34c


Cooool!! Have not seen those up here.


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## bowtie (Feb 4, 2012)

Evan1968 said:


> Polyblend you say? There is your answer right there. Very inconsistent grout even when you mix according to directions. That's the nature of Polyblend.



The only issues with Customs grout is with the grey shades, I've never seen a issue with other colors ...


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

angus242 said:


> The best sponges...ever
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/QEP-7-1-2-x-5-1-2-x-2-in-Microfiber-Sponge-for-Grouting-Cleaning-and-Washing-70010Q/202549349?N=5yc1vZc38oZ34c


Oh hell yes! I can see 8 or 10 of those bad boys coming home with me next trip to the deep ho.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

I was just wondering about wrapping a microfiber cloth around a sponge for cleaning grouted LVT .
I still can't see me buying QEP crap, I'll check for hydras sponge, what will they not connect to a sponge?
Thanks for posting the innovation.


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## JackP23 (Jan 1, 2013)

angus242 said:


> The best sponges...ever
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/QEP-7-1-...and-Washing-70010Q/202549349?N=5yc1vZc38oZ34c


I agree!!!

Mine carried em for a few weeks and now they don't.....I bought one....cried like a baby when it finally died. Can we order those bad boys???:laughing::laughing::laughing:


__________
Mike


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