# Tile sub forgot heated floor heat sensor. Now what?



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

I was supposed to be finishing a bathroom job tomorrow. Just got a call from the HO. The sub that THEY hired to put in the tile floor forgot to install the heat sensor.

Its one of those orange mat deals. The sensor to the floor heat is supposed to go up to the wall stat along with the power lead. Apparently they forgot the sensor wire.

What now?

Can they pull up a few tile and reinstall it without damaging the whole mat? Otherwise they are going to have to replace the whole floor. Not my problem but it just screwed up my plans for Monday big time.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Wouldn't surprise me if the flooring sub just gives the HO the job in exchange for not having to tear it up...but then the HO doesn't get his floor heat but I think he'd take the free job.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

The maker may have a programmable way around this such that the sensor just needs to be embedded in the grout.


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## BThomas (Apr 21, 2013)

If by orange mat you mean the Schlulter heat mat than - there should be two sensors not one. He could pull enough tile to run 24" into the mat but being careful not to cross the heat wire or use a heat channel location. It would take some careful chipping away of the mortar but would be better than giving the job away. Obviously no pre-testing was done!


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I'm sure ya could do that if you did so carefully.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

The NuHeat signature thermostat has an option to run off air temp only.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

BThomas said:


> If by orange mat you mean the Schlulter heat mat than - there should be two sensors not one. He could pull enough tile to run 24" into the mat but being careful not to cross the heat wire or use a heat channel location. It would take some careful chipping away of the mortar but would be better than giving the job away. Obviously no pre-testing was done!



No it's not schluter. More like netting. One of the type of deals blows sells.


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## BThomas (Apr 21, 2013)

Not Schluter - It might be better to walk away than. Most loose laid heat mats are set in thinset or hot glued to the sub floor and than covered with self leveling compound. Not very easy to add the sensor later. I hope the floor was not too large if he does have to eat it


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Can the sensor be placed under the sink base, if there is one?


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

they didn't have a loud mouth hooked up?


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## BThomas (Apr 21, 2013)

The sensor must be located within the heating grid. You are not supposed to put the heat grid under the vanity. The sensor is the thermostat that lets the control know if it needs to be on or off. That is why you locate it within the heat grid.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Spencer said:


> No it's not schluter. More like netting. One of the type of deals blows sells.


Probably a SunTouch.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Splinter said:


> The NuHeat signature thermostat has an option to run off air temp only.


What he said.

I just installed 2 Nu Heat stats with the sensor connected. As I programed it the air only option was in the menu.

The sensor and cold lead cannot be run together. You're not allowed the sensor wire and line voltage run in the same conduit. In the box you need to install a box divider.

Tom


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

tjbnwi said:


> What he said.
> 
> I just installed 2 Nu Heat stats with the sensor connected. As I programed it the air only option was in the menu.
> 
> ...


Hmmm...well at least that leaves an option to still use the system if it can run off of air temp. I figured it would not function without the sensor wire as it would over heat, essentially being either on or off.

I'm not sure what brand the system is. The flooring sub provided it. 

Is it universal that the cold lead cannot run in the same conduit as the stat wire on all systems? I have only installed floor heat twice, and the electrician took care of the electrical part. That would be good to know for future reference about running the wires together...


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Spencer said:


> Hmmm...well at least that leaves an option to still use the system if it can run off of air temp. I figured it would not function without the sensor wire as it would over heat, essentially being either on or off.
> 
> I'm not sure what brand the system is. The flooring sub provided it.
> 
> Is it universal that the cold lead cannot run in the same conduit as the stat wire on all systems? I have only installed floor heat twice, and the electrician took care of the electrical part. That would be good to know for future reference about running the wires together...


We don't use no stinking conduit, just drill a hole in the bottom plate on a 45 degree angel and put a pull string into the box.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

You're in Indiana, I can tell you without a doubt the two cables cannot be run in the same conduit and must be divided in the box. This is covered in NEC 725-54.

Tom


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> We don't use no stinking conduit, just drill a hole in the bottom plate on a 45 degree angel and put a pull string into the box.


Still cannot mix Class 2 and 3 in the same box as Class 1 wire, a separator solves this issue. (I know your in Canada so this may not apply).

Tom


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> Still cannot mix Class 2 and 3 in the same box as Class 1 wire, a separator solves this issue. (I know your in Canada so this may not apply).
> 
> Tom


We can't terminate them in the same box without a divider, but the thermostats have an enclosed junction, hence why we can have Class1 and 2/3 in the same box.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> We can't terminate them in the same box without a divider, but the thermostats have an enclosed junction, hence why we can have Class1 and 2/3 in the same box.


We can't have them in the same box, thus the divider. 

With the Nu Heat T-stats the sensor cable passes through a hole in the body and the terminals are on the front of the T-stat for the sensor wires. The connections are covered by the T-stat face. The line and cold lead terminals are on the back of the body and remain within the box. 

Tom


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Inner10 said:


> We can't terminate them in the same box without a divider, but the thermostats have an enclosed junction, hence why we can have Class1 and 2/3 in the same box.





tjbnwi said:


> We can't have them in the same box, thus the divider.
> 
> With the Nu Heat T-stats the sensor cable passes through a hole in the body and the terminals are on the front of the T-stat for the sensor wires. The connections are covered by the T-stat face. The line and cold lead terminals are on the back of the body and remain within the box.
> 
> Tom


What is the purpose behind the code principle? What is the danger involved? Excuse my ignorance...


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

I have repaired a few floor heat systems requiring tile removal. Very tedious to remove the tile so you don't damage the mat. It can be done, though.

I would check to see if 24" into the mat is an absolute requirement. Perhaps just 10 or 12" would be sufficient.

The hard part maybe not crossing the lead wires with the sensor wire. I like to use 3 conduits for the box. The two end ones are for leads and the middle for sensor wire


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

It can be done. Pop a tile and carefully remove the grout. The mat doesn't cover the entire floor. Of course this is for the tile guy to do, not your responsibility. Probably won't make it the full 24", but close enough.

Happens alot I'll bet. At least that's what I tell myself when I think of one about 15 years ago.

Tile guy should have had the warning device attached to the wires. It will sound an alarm if a wire gets nicked. I don't know the name, but one was mentioned a few posts back.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

builditguy said:


> It can be done. Pop a tile and carefully remove the grout. The mat doesn't cover the entire floor. Of course this is for the tile guy to do, not your responsibility. Probably won't make it the full 24", but close enough.
> 
> Happens alot I'll bet. At least that's what I tell myself when I think of one about 15 years ago.
> 
> Tile guy should have had the warning device attached to the wires. It will sound an alarm if a wire gets nicked. I don't know the name, but one was mentioned a few posts back.



I'd be curious about getting one of those devices for myself in the future. I know you should always continuity test.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Spencer said:


> What is the purpose behind the code principle? What is the danger involved? Excuse my ignorance...


Crosstalk & safety.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

builditguy said:


> It can be done. Pop a tile and carefully remove the grout. The mat doesn't cover the entire floor. Of course this is for the tile guy to do, not your responsibility. Probably won't make it the full 24", but close enough.
> 
> Happens alot I'll bet. At least that's what I tell myself when I think of one about 15 years ago.
> 
> Tile guy should have had the warning device attached to the wires. It will sound an alarm if a wire gets nicked. I don't know the name, but one was mentioned a few posts back.


Unless the wire is cut through entirely the device is useless. The Loud Mouth is a simple continuity tester, any continuity and the device will not sound off. 

In the case of no sensor the device would have done no good. It is attached to the cold lead in the box. 

The reason for no Class 2/3 cable with Class 1 is, do you really want the risk of running 110/120 volts through the sensor? The sensor never sees any power, it is an open/close device.

Tom


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

tjbnwi said:


> The reason for no Class 2/3 cable with Class 1 is, do you really want the risk of running 110/120 volts through the sensor? The sensor never sees any power, it is an open/close device.
> 
> Tom


I assume this is only applicable if someone actually physically hooked up power to the sensor wire. It wouldn't be possible to actually run 110 through it by means of crosstalk???


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

It's called a loud mouth check post #17


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Spencer said:


> I assume this is only applicable if someone actually physically hooked up power to the sensor wire. It wouldn't be possible to actually run 110 through it by means of crosstalk???


Crosstalk won't induce that kind of voltage, but there's always a remote chance of insulation failure which could cause a direct connection between the conductors, from physical abuse or whatever. 

Whether you agree with that or not, that's the reasoning.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

If the home owner hired the sub I would stay out of it. Let the two of them work it out. I would have no desire to get in the middle of it.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

FrankSmith said:


> If the home owner hired the sub I would stay out of it. Let the two of them work it out. I would have no desire to get in the middle of it.


A lot of this.

Is the sensor small enough that it could be laid in the grout line? Easiest to just rake out some grout, embed it and then regrout. It probably wouldn't work quite as accurately but it's not your mess.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Talked to the HO this afternoon. Tile sub is coming tomorrow to fix it. Whatever that means. The sub did acknowledge that it was his mistake and said it was a first. Things happen. Not the end of the world.


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## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

that is for sure:thumbsup:


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

EthanB said:


> A lot of this.
> 
> Is the sensor small enough that it could be laid in the grout line? Easiest to just rake out some grout, embed it and then regrout. It probably wouldn't work quite as accurately but it's not your mess.


The sensor would fit in a 3/8" grout joint easily, would be close on a 1/4" joint. 

Your idea may be a great solution. If the floor stat is set at 88º the stat will open at 88º, doesn't matter where the sensor is.

Tom


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

I feel sorry for the flooring sub. The HO said he was going to take off work today to stay home and make sure it gets done right. Bad enough to screw up, worse to have the HO looking over your shoulder as you fix it.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Years ago, one of the floor heat systems put their sensor in a tube that was installed in a channel in the underlayment. You could pull the sensor out and replace it, if need be.

So how did this repair go?


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

olzo55 said:


> Years ago, one of the floor heat systems put their sensor in a tube that was installed in a channel in the underlayment. You could pull the sensor out and replace it, if need be.
> 
> 
> 
> So how did this repair go?



I was there today. It looked good and the heat worked so I guess it was a success.


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