# Hill country Texas full-stone over frame - rainscreen, weeps, flash?



## Willin (Aug 20, 2012)

All over Austin and down to San Antonio, and in all the hill country communities and suburbs, the newer homes are all built with a lot of full-masonry exteriors.

Like the two shown in the attached pics.

Slab construction, four-inch stone ledge dropped below the framing sills, sometimes a few inches, sometimes a few feet, but always dropped.

Are the stone facings going on with a cavity behind, and a rainscreen, then all the usual at the bottom, flash, weeps, etc.? Or is it all just ignored down in this area with weak building code enforcement, and about 30 inches of annual rainfall?

Because in all the photos I see of hill country houses, many of them 5K s.f. palaces and up, costing multi millions, I never see a hint of any weeping or flashing.

Seeking real experiences info from builders down there with boots on the ground.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Sounds like you answered your own question.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

21" of rainfall in a good year, but some do, some don't weep, but pretty much all flashed.


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## Willin (Aug 20, 2012)

Am focusing on areas around Fredericksburg, and climate data at this webpage shows 31 point something inches per year on average. http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate.php?location=USTX0482

So it sounds as if the better builders won't think twice about having to to a rainscreen behind, and flash with weeps below. Sounds like they do it now.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

I thought rainscreen was a technique for exterior cladding.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Rainscreen can mean just an airspace, flashed and/or weeped. The main issue with weeps around here is fire ants and scorpions, but more are using them with proper screening.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tscarborough said:


> The main issue with weeps around here is fire ants and scorpions, but more are using them with proper screening.


Bugs, yuck. I've seen wasps fly over to weep holes and climb in hundreds of times. They should make a weep that has some sort of a stuff like steel wool but plastic so it doesn't rust. Like granmas way of keeping mice out.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I build/remodel in Horseshoe Bay, Lakeway, Marble Falls, all over Lake LBJ and some surronding ranches. Bidding a custom up near Canyon Lake. Most of the homes I work on are 7 figures, 90% have full masonry exteriors.

If the builders gives a chit, most drop the rock pocket below grade to hide the slab. Slab on grade is the main stay here. 

Most hacks dont weep, never seen anyone not flash. Code enforcement is non existient outside city limits in the countys in Texas. Code Enforcement in many municipalities is very strict.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Willin said:


> Am focusing on areas around Fredericksburg, and climate data at this webpage shows 31 point something inches per year on average. http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate.php?location=USTX0482
> 
> So it sounds as if the better builders won't think twice about having to to a rainscreen behind, and flash with weeps below. Sounds like they do it now.


BTW Im the President of the Hill Country Builders Association, formely the Texas Hill Country Home Builders Association and Building Industry Association of the Highland Lakes, our area covers Fredericksburg and 11 other countys. Ill make sure to let them know they suck next time I see them down there :laughing::laughing:


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

dom-mas said:


> Bugs, yuck. I've seen wasps fly over to weep holes and climb in hundreds of times. They should make a weep that has some sort of a stuff like steel wool but plastic so it doesn't rust. Like granmas way of keeping mice out.


They've got a few products now.....there's Quadro-vent, there's some Stainless/Poly fabric, and Mortar Net makes some handy little ones now as well.......


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> .
> 
> If the builders gives a chit, most drop the rock pocket below grade to hide the slab. Slab on grade is the main stay here.
> 
> Most hacks dont weep, never seen anyone not flash.


How do you drop the masonry below grade and put in weeps?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> How do you drop the masonry below grade and put in weeps?


Depends.

Most have weep holes above finished grade, below finished floor, above the rock pocket. This is literally just for show, it does nothing.

If you need to weep, and your rock pocket is below grade, I install a french drain and a pea gravel trench, weep holes piss into the trench below grade.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

No I think that's not a _bad_ idea. Weep holes aren't really for letting liquid water out. Their more for letting dry air in, especially in an arid area like yours. But I think it would be a better idea to grout the void below grade rather than keeping the air space


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> No I think that's not a _bad_ idea. Weep holes aren't really for letting liquid water out. Their more for letting dry air in, especially in an arid area like yours. But I think it would be a better idea to grout the void below grade rather than keeping the air space


Good to know. 

The void between rock and grade is not really an issue if its below finished floor or plate height, no? My main concern is not having the mortar fill up the void to the point that the water runs under the plates. Ive heard of it happening, especially with brick.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

In an area that doesn't see any real precipitation or freezing I don't think it's too big a deal, but in an area that had both, soil freezing and expanding could push the veneer in bit by bit year after year. Another scenario I could see would be for water to get in, get below the weepers and then freeze, and saturate the masonry units since not only do they not have weepers below but they also aren't exposed to fresh air. Then the units freeze and are destroyed. But again in a hot arid climate I doubt that it's a big deal.

If the ledge is properly flashed I don't see how water could get into the sill plate


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The airspace below grade should be filled and the weeps added at flashing level (above grade), like this pic from BIA (although it is talking about step flashing, it is the same).


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I would be inclined to grout solid the shelf as well, at least until paper and flashing can take over, at which you would put your weepers. 

But i do think they are for letting water out. Air in is a plus, but not by design. If it were, we would be creating a type of ridge venting system at the last course and somewhere on the bottom. Although that would probably work well also.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

It is not a problem if it is through flashed, if not you will get wicking up the face of the stone.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

JBM said:


> But i do think they are for letting water out. Air in is a plus, but not by design. If it were, we would be creating a type of ridge venting system at the last course and somewhere on the bottom. Although that would probably work well also.


Have you ever seen water coming out of weep holes? It would be rare for a wall in even decent repair to have much liquid water getting into the air space and the liquid water that did get in would get absorbed by the units and by the slops. The units getting thoroughly soaked and a some moisture bridging I could definitely see but enough water that it runs out the weep holes would have to be the equivalent of a fire hose sprayed on the wall for 10 minutes or something. Hundreds of gallons of water. There is a venting system on top. The air space is exposed in the soffit area which allows a free flow of air


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## Willin (Aug 20, 2012)

Another detail. It is clear here that the weeps go in above grade, not at grade, that the wall is full-rear-grout below, and above is stood off with an airspace and supported by clips.

So I gotta ask, is this in the code (IRC) or is it just best-practice?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

That detail is not code or practical, it looks to be done by a manufacturer of a drainage product. You don't slope the brick ledge, but other than that and the drainage plane material, it looks OK. 

Full wall "rainscreen" drainage plane systems are redundant and expensive for above grade airspaced/flashed/weeped dimensional veneers. I would advocate them for stucco if they would get the price to a level commiserate with their value rather than their novelty.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

dom-mas said:


> Have you ever seen water coming out of weep holes?


Yeah! Maybe you don't get 4 inches of rain in 12 hours with sixty mph winds, but we most certainly do.

Properly installed, they work _just_ as they're supposed to. I once had a _very_ skeptical builder tell me "Hey, those things _work_!" 

Look just below some good weepers, and you'll see mineral staining sometime......


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tscarborough said:


> Full wall "rainscreen" drainage plane systems are redundant and expensive for above grade airspaced/flashed/weeped dimensional veneers. I would advocate them for stucco if they would get the price to a level commiserate with their value rather than their novelty.


I agree. I was looking at some the other day and asked about a price, I was figuring $0.10/sqft, he told me $1/sqft, I laughed and said he didn't need to keep on with his sales pitch


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Rockmonster said:


> Yeah! Maybe you don't get 4 inches of rain in 12 hours with sixty mph winds, but we most certainly do.
> 
> Properly installed, they work _just_ as they're supposed to. I once had a _very_ skeptical builder tell me "Hey, those things _work_!"
> 
> Look just below some good weepers, and you'll see mineral staining sometime......


4" of rain in 12hrs on occasion I guess and it usually will come with 45mph winds anyway but they are rare. Even if liquid water was coming out, the material would still be soaked, the frame wall would be soaked and would need to dry hence the need for fresh air. 

I guess I should say that the MAIN use of the weep holes isn't for letting liquid water out but for letting fresh air in. I work on a lot of old veneered buildings from the 1890's-1930's. ALL have an air space (often almost full of slops or at least with slops that bridge the air space) NONE have weep holes, they all have permeable lime mortar and highly permeable brick which allows the water/moisture in and then sucks it back out as well. Inside that air space it is dry, very dry with tattered tar paper and dessicated old bugs. In 100+ years water has certainly gotten into that air space and without weep holes it has still dried out. 

It's the same with modern veneers that have hard less permeable brick and mortar. water will get in and the weep holes allow air in to dry it out, the masonry and the framed wall.


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## Willin (Aug 20, 2012)

Tscarborough said:


> That detail is not code or practical, it looks to be done by a manufacturer of a drainage product. You don't slope the brick ledge, but other than that and the drainage plane material, it looks OK.
> 
> Full wall "rainscreen" drainage plane systems are redundant and expensive for above grade airspaced/flashed/weeped dimensional veneers. I would advocate them for stucco if they would get the price to a level commiserate with their value rather than their novelty.


OK, so let's talk about it. 

What is the right way to build, the practical way, in Texas hill country, that meets code, when one wants that hill country German look with the cut limestone exterior, like shown in the attached picture.

The foundation will be the typical grade-beam perimeter around slab, the grade beam having a stone ledge step in its top. Finished grade at any of these stone-facade walls will be above the ledge, so the bottom course of stone will be below finished grade.

The house structure is wood frame, and the wood framing stands on the slab elevation, which matches top of grade beam. The first course or courses of stone facing are stone on concrete, with concrete behind.

What is the width of the stone ledge? Does code stipulate a minimum width?

The ledge will of course be level, as shown in that product manufacturer's section detail I showed in an earlier post. When you said it was not level, I think you were looking at the pitched flashing between stone courses.

Given local supply situations for cut limestone, what is the practical width for that stone ledge, and what is the thickness of the stone facing when laid up?

The wood-framed wall is sheathed with a panel material, either OSB or plywood. What does code say about the spec for this material? Must it be of a water-resistive type? I cannot find anything in the code about this.

The sheathing will be covered outside with some kind of membrane. Code wants it to be #15 felt, one layer. What is practical and what is used in the hill country?

Code wants the space between masonry and wall behind, the cavity depth, to be a minimum of 1", and it allows you to build it as an open cavity, or filled with mortar. What is practical? What is done in hill country?

Are you supporting with clips, as the code stipulates? Does hill country practice say to use more clips than the code specifies?

To get the water out at bottom, do you flash and weep as the code stipulates? It is all laid out in R703. What is local practice in the hill country?

If you put in weeps and flash, what do you do about mortar drip in the cavity, and its tendency to plug up the bottom of the cavity? Do you have a practical solution? Do you use a product that is placed there that is meant to solve this mortar clog problem, and always allow drainage?

As for flashing, what is a practical material to use? What does code say about flashing and its material spec? Other than "corrosive resistant" and "approved," I cannot find the code saying anything else. Should through-wall flashing be pitched outboard, to facilitate water drainage? Does code allow pitching? If it is not pitched, why not?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Sounds like you need to buy a code book to me. I don't know about texas but the Ontario building code is online


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Consult your code book for code, I normally just discuss best practice, as that is usually better than the minimal required by code.

If you follow the detail you showed you can't go wrong. 

Normally for residential, 40 mill self adhesive flashing is more than good enough, but on commercial and some high end residential an asphalt coated copper is even better, as the chance of it deteriorating or being torn during installation is less.

As for the width of the brick ledge, it is normally the anticipated width of the veneer plus an inch (2" is better and becoming more common). For that old German look of Fredricksburg, it will be sawn 6 sides and lightly bushed on the face at 4" thick.

2 layers of felt or building paper is code or better.

Everything else pretty much as shown in your detail.


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## Willin (Aug 20, 2012)

The code in play where I am is the Residential Building Code of NY, an adaptation of the 2006 IRC. Both are available to me online, and my local building department has all the paper.

Permits are required here to build, but there is no inspection and no enforcement. The stone cladding I have had done here (by masonry subs) was neither flashed nor weeped, and nothing was done to ensure the stone was any minimum distance away from the #30 felt we used over the OSB sheathing. Full mortar pack behind the stone. Not good. I was the GC and masonry-stupid at the time. I am educating myself to have it done right in future, down in the TX hill country where I intend to have a house built. I will not GC it myself, but will hire a builder.

I watched those same subs here do that same full-pack no-flash no-weep thing at other jobs for other builders, some of those jobs at really large high-dollar installations. This, when hanging out finding and interviewing prospects.

We've had two new hotels go up in the last few years here in this little resort town, both done by commercial GCs from downstate. We've no real commercial GCs here. Their masonry subs come from elsewhere, too. Don't know about the cavity size or flash, but the weeps I see look like pieces of cotton clothesline embedded in the mortar joints.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

If the backup is masonry, then full pack no flash/no weep is an acceptable method of veneering a structural masonry building. Otherwise, not so much.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

In a nut shell. just like all footings and foundations, stone/brickledges need to be built level, at least nominally. 

You need a non permeable flashing that runs up and under the WRB 8" or so and is sealed. Blueskin is usually pretty good. The flashing, if possible, should drain towards outside. Aluminum is usually considered non corrosive but not when it comes to masonry

Any voids below grade should be grouted solid. 

There should be an air space above grade, 1" minimum is code but a finger width is more common in practise, meaning that if the stone is 3.5" in depth the ledge needs to be 4.5". The air space "should" be kept clean. One thing you can do is get something in the air space and pull it pull it up and out each time before putting the ties on

Ties are spaced every 16"x 24" or 24"x16" depending on stud spacing (house or garage)

weep holes should be at the level of your sill plate and every 24-32" more often isn't necessarily bad. If you have an air space then you have to have weeps. If you don't have an air space then you need to follow the practice of stucco

I would say that if you're hiring a builder express these concerns to them. If they can't or won't answer your questions, look for a different builder

I'm not in Texas but can almost guarantee that all of that would be considered going to or above code


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

We use a self adhering flashing, like Grace, Ill look at the shop for the brand.

5.5" rock shelf, the void between wall and rock is NOT filled with mortar. 

We use Tyvek drain wrap, not regular Tyvek for masonry applications. We install with button caps, not staples so the rust through and cause holes. I dont like felt for house wrap here, because of the humidity. Felt doesnt allow the house to breathe. Tyvek does, it allows the house to breathe but does not allow moisture in.
.
Ive never seen a properly wrapped house have a problem.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

when I said not to fill the void with mortar, I meant to say anything above grade do not fill with mortar


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

This is a weep hole on an addition we completed a few years ago.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

JBM said:


> I would be inclined to grout solid the shelf as well, at least until paper and flashing can take over, at which you would put your weepers.
> 
> But i do think they are for letting water out. Air in is a plus, but not by design. If it were, we would be creating a type of ridge venting system at the last course and somewhere on the bottom. Although that would probably work well also.



Our codes change here in April 2009, to require that exactly. Weeps under all window sills, under sills on beltline heights, weeps at the top course, or even better, the soffit is held of the wall an inch to allow a large amount of air behind the wall. Here's a short segment of our code on it:

(7) MASONRY VENEERS. (a) Veneer over frame construction.
1. Masonry veneers may be corbeled over the foundation wall, but
the corbeling shall not exceed one inch.
2. A minimum one−inch air space shall be provided between
the veneer and the sheathing unless a manufactured offset material
is used.
3. Where no brick ledge is formed in the foundation wall, corrosion resistant metal or other water−resistant flashing shall
extend over the top of the foundation wall from the outside face
of the wall and shall extend at least 6 inches up on the sheathing.
The flashing shall be installed to drain any water outward.
4. Weep holes shall be provided at the bottom masonry course
at maximum intervals of 2 feet.
5. Ventilation openings shall be provided at the top of the
wall.
Note: The ventilation opening could be other than a weep hole.
6. Studs and sheathing behind masonry veneer shall be covered with material used to construct the water−resistive barrier as
required under s. SPS 321.24 (4).
Note: Acceptable water−resistive barrier materials include polymeric−based
house wraps and #15 or greater asphalt−saturated felts that comply with ASTM D 226
for type I felt.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

jomama said:


> Our codes change here in April 2009, to require that exactly. Weeps under all window sills, under sills on beltline heights, weeps at the top course, or even better, the soffit is held of the wall an inch to allow a large amount of air behind the wall. Here's a short segment of our code on it:
> 
> (7) MASONRY VENEERS. (a) Veneer over frame construction.
> 1. Masonry veneers may be corbeled over the foundation wall, but
> ...


that is fascinating. I always thought that the issue could be more easily remedied by air then by dripping. hmm.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Willin said:


> The code in play where I am is the Residential Building Code of NY, an adaptation of the 2006 IRC. Both are available to me online, and my local building department has all the paper.
> 
> Permits are required here to build, but there is no inspection and no enforcement. The stone cladding I have had done here (by masonry subs) was neither flashed nor weeped, and nothing was done to ensure the stone was any minimum distance away from the #30 felt we used over the OSB sheathing. Full mortar pack behind the stone. Not good. I was the GC and masonry-stupid at the time. I am educating myself to have it done right in future, down in the TX hill country where I intend to have a house built. I will not GC it myself, but will hire a builder.
> 
> ...


If you are building in the Fredericksburg area, PM if you want, and Ill give you some info on the better builders over there. :thumbsup:


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I want to know: In the OP's 1st post, the top picture...what would someone call that architectural style? Is it unique to Texas Hill Country?


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

JBM said:


> that is fascinating. I always thought that the issue could be more easily remedied by air then by dripping. hmm.


I agree, with what seems to be the ever increasing amount of softer/porous brick being pushed, solar driven moisture is becoming a bigger problem IMO, and this is a better way to deal with it......


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't know if it is unique to the area, but I would call it Texas modern and it is common around here.


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