# Repointing.



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

I got a project that is typically much bigger than my capabilities but as the best of us(or worst)I could not pass on it.

Its repointing three school buildings 35(h)x50(L)x
25 x 40
25 x 40

I typically dont quote this size of repointing and quiet honestly last time I have done repointing was almost a year ago.

I get residential chimneys and brick veneers at all times but nothing that big.

I dont even remember how big of area I can repoint a day.

Sound like I will be ordering T & H air chisels right away :blink:..

Anyway question is,(not about pricing btw), having 2 brickies and 2 helpers how long would it take to repoint buildings that size?

couple of months?

Dont really wanna cut myself short here


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

We talking saw-cut and re-point or paste over...big difference.

Forget the chisels - invest in dustless saw equipment.


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## INTRA (Nov 27, 2008)

Not sure on time, are they solid walls etc. You need a couple of Bosch 5" vacuum Tuckpointing saw. Also a couple of Tuckpointing vacuums. Btw how can you Tuckpointing with a air chisel without hacking up the job.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

Your kinda asking the unanswerable question....kind of like a noob. 

Just bustin your chops....you will need to give more specifics.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

TheItalian204 said:


> I dont even remember how big of area I can repoint a day.


If it's anything like adhered veneer then I'd say about 1400 sq ft a day.

:boxing:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I would use a regular grinder myself and either buy a thick "re-pointing" diamond blade or double or triple up on regulars with a spacer between each. The doubled up cuts easier and throws the dust better. A vacuum attachement would be nice though. I don't think an air hammer would be the best tool

Personally I can cut out about 100 sqft a day and point 60 sqft next day, but that's more often old brick with lime mortar and joints that average 1/8". If the joints were larger I could point 100sqft failrly easy. I usually work alone, I do my own set up and I'm up and down the scaffold a few times.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

INTRA said:


> Not sure on time, are they solid walls etc. You need a couple of Bosch 5" vacuum Tuckpointing saw. Also a couple of Tuckpointing vacuums. Btw how can you Tuckpointing with a air chisel without hacking up the job.


Exactly, I wouldnt repoint anything of significance without it. 

As you may recall I purchased a quickpoint last year and it really speeds things up.

If I were to do that with 3 guys I would have 3 bosch grinders and 3 quickpoint guns, without question.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Brick is solid(already checked)...its veneer wall,unfortunately its going to be elastomeric coated(actually I am supposed to do that too,but thats Stage II of project) so they want solid joints so nothing peels,cracks and etc.

I have a grinder,but I think I might just need a quickpoint...T&H quickpointer it is then...(EDIT oops thought they might have one)


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

SS I am thinking cut out and re-point loose areas,paste over everything thats sound


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Took me two months just to do the grinding on this wall with a 4 1/2" angle grinder.

Absolutely agree, you need a Quickpoint gun for projects that size.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

My guess was that it took you a long time to cut those joints because there aren't that many beds but lots of heads. 1' of heads takes as long as 50' of beds, since you can't bury the blade in the head. Just my experience


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> My guess was that it took you a long time to cut those joints because there aren't that many beds but lots of heads. 1' of heads takes as long as 50' of beds.


sounds like it


http://www.contractorsdirect.com/Co...rout-Pumps/Quikpoint-Mortar-Gun-Without-Drill

this might do the job...i only held grout bag in my life(well besides air chisel)...so its prolly gonna be fun.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

T&H quickpointer?...Trow and Holden doesnt make one.

I have to second the others about the air chisels...cutting out the joint will be faster. But it would work well for removing pointing in the head joints.

If you get one, then get the "B" type...the "D" is too aggresive for this application. I posted these before but here are the B type...the upswept cape chisel (second from the right)would be great for your job....










Congrats on landing a big project too.:thumbsup:


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> T&H quickpointer?...Trow and Holden doesnt make one.
> 
> I have to second the others about the air chisels...cutting out the joint will be faster. But it would work well for removing pointing in the head joints.
> 
> ...


Hows vibration on those things? is my carpal tunnel going to kick back in?

Thanks btw,it poured out of grouting with sanded tile grout that fireplace I posted about before lol.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

TheItalian204 said:


> Hows vibration on those things? is my carpal tunnel is going to kick back in?
> 
> Thanks btw,it poured out of grouting with sanded tile grout that fireplace I posted about before lol.


Its not bad because they are designed for carving. If you get one definately get the hose setup that they offer and spring for the Staubli male and female quick connect. I only have one set and cheap ones (even bostich) connectors got beat up pretty good. Heres a link to thier Pneumatic page.

https://trowandholden.com/store/agora.cgi?product=cat4


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

carpal tunnel, I doubt it, possible "white finger" after a several decades of use, perhaps. Both the B and the D also come in "long and "short" strokes. I find the long stroke Barrie is similar to the short stroke Dallet


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I forgot...

With the hose setup you get an air stopcock and you can control the amount of air feeding the chisel.:thumbsup:


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

well I got a suitable compressor,but looks like I have to pony up some money for everything else ...Stonecutter,you shouldnt have given me this link...last time SS gave it to me I felt like kid in candy shop...

oh well,one who does not spend money,does not make money.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

TheItalian204 said:


> well I got a suitable compressor,but looks like I have to pony up some money for everything else ...Stonecutter,you shouldnt have given me this link...last time SS gave it to me I felt like kid in candy shop...
> 
> oh well,one who does not spend money,does not make money.


Well, someone my have to do an intervention for me soon.:laughing: Seriously, they have great tools and excellent customer service too. I'm thinking I will own the entire catalog in another year or so.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> carpal tunnel, I doubt it, possible "white finger" after a several decades of use, perhaps. Both the B and the D also come in "long and "short" strokes. I find the long stroke Barrie is similar to the short stroke Dallet


Dom, the B is short stroke and the D is long stroke.:thumbsup:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I thought the B had a different piston size as the D. Each one has 2 variables, that I remember and the bigger piston with the shorter stroke was similar to the smaller piston with the longer stroke. 

Italian. If you don't want to spend as much money, you can always go to Princess auto and buy a cheapo air hammer. They cost about $20 and sometimes they'll last 2 days of all day cutting sometimes a couple weeks.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Italian. If you don't want to spend as much money, you can always go to Princess auto and buy a cheapo air hammer. They cost about $20 and sometimes they'll last 2 days of all day cutting sometimes a couple weeks.


No tools are on thing I dont mind putting money into...how english say:

I am not rich to pay twice...


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> I thought the B had a different piston size as the D. Each one has 2 variables, that I remember and the bigger piston with the shorter stroke was similar to the smaller piston with the longer stroke.
> 
> Italian. If you don't want to spend as much money, you can always go to Princess auto and buy a cheapo air hammer. They cost about $20 and sometimes they'll last 2 days of all day cutting sometimes a couple weeks.


There are different sizes within each model family but B is short and D is long. I guess some models within each family will compare to each other but in general the B tools are for detail and finer work while the D tools are for roughing out. ...that doesnt mean you couldnt do detail work with a D though. 
There is a real small model in the B family called the Bantam also a short stroke.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> sounds like it
> 
> 
> http://www.contractorsdirect.com/Co...rout-Pumps/Quikpoint-Mortar-Gun-Without-Drill
> ...


I purchased the quickpoint from the fellas who make it. Their shop is about 20 min away. 

Anyways I would suggest you buy it with the drill they offer and just leave it hooked up. I almost didn't but there is no way you would take the chuck on and off 3 drills.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

JBM said:


> Anyways I would suggest you buy it with the drill they offer and just leave it hooked up. I almost didn't but there is no way you would take the chuck on and off 3 drills.


Huh? Take what chuck off?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> Huh? Take what chuck off?


I took the plastic cover off and loosened the clamp to get a good look. This is the way they gave me the quickpoint.


















http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k536/Jbmohlermasonry/IMG_20120223_223051.jpg


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

More info 1960s building...thinking to go with lime mortar instead of portland this time around..I will be teaching couple of kids so i wouldnt want them to make almost uncleanable mess.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

1960 isnt that old.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

JBM said:


> 1960 isnt that old.


No,but I find its easier to clean off the brick from lime mortar than portland if kids gob all over it...they are only 18 years old and 5th time using grout bag...plus its getting sealed.


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## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

You want a screwgun that has a chuck key ideally, because otherwise the torque isn't enough for the fitting to lock onto the auger. Every 5 mins re-tightening the spin is frustrating. I see dust equipment, staging, grinders, scoops+auger guns(Quickpoints), and sealant. A man lift possibly but full staging seems practical enough, grinding in floor size lifts is practical with the amount of guys you have Italian204 that can work using planks.


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## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

Yes, I agree with using grout bags for repointing. Although, on this scale must agree grinding with hands and all that the guns can get coverage faster without fatigue..


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

JD3lta said:


> You want a screwgun that has a chuck key ideally, because otherwise the torque isn't enough for the fitting to lock onto the auger. Every 5 mins re-tightening the spin is frustrating. I see dust equipment, staging, grinders, scoops+auger guns(Quickpoints), and sealant. A man lift possibly but full staging seems practical enough, grinding in floor size lifts is practical with the amount of guys you have Italian204 that can work using planks.


I am thinking full staging through joint I know...lift sounds expensive,since I see about a month of work...3 masons,1 helper,two apprentices(basically helpers)...

Thinking to stage sections,since its school and I dont want crap falling on people's heads...

so probably stage section,grind,repoint,move staging not to block entrances etc otherwise too much hassle(permits,work and safety plan for site etc)...

I see pretty much what you see...I also see about 10 yards of sand and about 50 bags of lime for starters.


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## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

You might not plan for the gun a lot, but it's a good enough time to qualify and designate someone who can run one..


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

JD3lta said:


> You might not plan for the gun a lot, but it's a good enough time to qualify and designate someone who can run one..


Probably run the gun myself...in the basement first...:laughing:


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## sokoleoko (Jan 26, 2012)

When I was younger we used to tuck point up to 10000 sf daily (without grinding) .Now its hard to find a good, fast tuck pointer. I can still easily tuckpoint 7000 sf. Grinding is a different story. depends on how much mess you can make (vacuums or not) how deep you have to grind, thickness of joints and mortar hardness. I advise using two blade grinders with a vacuum. Good luck on your project.
Tuckpointing Chicago


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

sokoleoko said:


> When I was younger we used to tuck point up to 10000 sf daily (without grinding) .Now its hard to find a good, fast tuck pointer. I can still easily tuckpoint 7000 sf. Grinding is a different story. depends on how much mess you can make (vacuums or not) how deep you have to grind, thickness of joints and mortar hardness. I advise using two blade grinders with a vacuum. Good luck on your project.
> Tuckpointing Chicago


Honestly I am going to have tarps on perimeter so dust is not an issue...as long as it does not end up in my lungs.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

JBM said:


> I took the plastic cover off and loosened the clamp to get a good look. This is the way they gave me the quickpoint.


Ah. We bought ours without the drill, so there's no coupler, just a shaft to tighten your drill chuck onto. Really haven't had a problem with keyless chucks.



TheItalian204 said:


> Honestly I am going to have tarps on perimeter so dust is not an issue...as long as it does not end up in my lungs.


If you're not going to use a vacuum, set up a strong fan blowing across the surface you're grinding. If you don't, on a calm day you won't be able to see a foot in front of your face.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> If you're not going to use a vacuum, set up a strong fan blowing across the surface you're grinding. If you don't, on a calm day you won't be able to see a foot in front of your face.


thats the idea...


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

I need to invest in one of the vaccumm setups as well.

I was looking at this one, seems rugged, like it would outlive a few grinders.










They are trying to crack down on dust free work entirely here and the landscape guys are hating it. They expect them to cut edges on brand new paver patios without dust.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

On the same note what would be best way to remove lime mortar haze off top of the brick?

I have a lead for a job where brickie screwed up...one sure method I know of would be scrub brush and bucket of water but I would like to propose couple of methods to HO...ideas?(ones not involving ordering something I cant get in closest masonry vendor,its basically "service call" lead).


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

sokoleoko said:


> When I was younger we used to tuck point up to 10000 sf daily (without grinding) .Now its hard to find a good, fast tuck pointer. I can still easily tuckpoint 7000 sf. Grinding is a different story. depends on how much mess you can make (vacuums or not) how deep you have to grind, thickness of joints and mortar hardness. I advise using two blade grinders with a vacuum. Good luck on your project.
> Tuckpointing Chicago


WHAT???????? 7000sqft????????? IN A DAY???????

700 feet long by 10' high. I'm sorry but you would have to show me a video of that to believe it, Even then I would think it was faked and would want to see it in person


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> WHAT???????? 7000sqft????????? IN A DAY???????
> 
> 700 feet long by 10' high. I'm sorry but you would have to show me a video of that to believe it, Even then I would think it was faked and would want to see it in person


I was thinking among those lines,but I have hard time questioning ppl :whistling


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

That dude is blowing smoke for sure...expect for saw-cutting 150/200 sq ft per day...re-point about 200/250 sq ft.

And all this talk about quickpoint and cleaning when done is senseless...trained pointers will use slickers or jointers just as fast with little mess.

As far as the dust - your creating huge amounts which can spread quite a ways depending on wind...working at a school should be a major concern regarding proper handling. 

And throw some Portland in with that lime - you won't regret it :no:

Don't make me whip out some pics.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

superseal said:


> That dude is blowing smoke for sure...expect for saw-cutting 150/200 sq ft per day...re-point about 200/250 sq ft.
> 
> And all this talk about quickpoint and cleaning when done is senseless...trained pointers will use slickers or jointers just as fast with little mess.
> 
> ...


No I happened to come across a lead on other project where "brickie" "hazed" the brick pretty good...I was thinking among lines of Aldon but scrub n water should do i would think.


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## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

Hit the head joints.. Hopper/Grout Bag the rest and have another person strike them when they solidify.. Too wet to strike=Mess, I think that getting three trowel fulls of mud a wack w/ stopping and not striking fairs better then jointing by hand and then working again by hand.. I would like to see a speed comparison.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

JD3lta said:


> Hit the head joints.. Hopper/Grout Bag the rest and have another person strike them when they solidify.. Too wet to strike=Mess, I think that getting three trowel fulls of mud a wack w/ stopping and not striking fairs better then jointing by hand and then working again by hand.. I would like to see a speed comparison.


Yea chances are this will be done in June and I hope we have hot summer this year...if so probably mix on soupy side so it does not dry to fast and get kids to tool/brush when its time for it...

If its rainy summer then grout bag is out of picture....probably hawk and slicker. Dry mud.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I suppose the guy and his ox can cut down trees with an axe as fast as a guy with a chain saw


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

I am all for the old fashioned way lots of the time. But if I see a time, and or, effort saver I pounce like a hobo on a ham sandwich.

I have a friend that refuses to do anything any way except the old fashioned way i.e. hard way (I recall one incident of us cleaning out brick joints with hammers and chisels until I got mad and went home to get my grinder.

I think its good to have the skills to do everything with hand tools, that doesn't mean you can't speed the process up a little.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Seems like you guys still think old fashion is slow ...Quickpoint has it's uses, but paste over and spot saw-cut work ain't one of them.

Maybe it's time for a slicker challenge?...Could be a fun summer thread :whistling


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I was under the impression he was repointing the entire building. If its spot grinding and pointing, then yeah, it doesnt really matter either way. 

One of the benefits is that a mason and a laborer can be very productive with a quickpoint. In 60 seconds a laborer will be pretty much an expert with a quickpoint.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

JBM said:


> I was under the impression he was repointing the entire building. If its spot grinding and pointing, then yeah, it doesnt really matter either way.
> 
> .


I am supposed to provide two quotes...one for grinding out and repointing whole building other one for addressing problematic areas and pasting everything else over...

Went to see place again today (because last time I checked it was -27F with windchill so i didnt feel like hanging outside too much),problematic areas are all over the place.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

Last year we did a little bit larger job for us. Grind out and point a larger wall by a eye doctors office. 
We ground out the joints using the Bosch grinder with vacuum attachment
and used the point master tool from the UK









The pointing tool took a little getting used to, but after the learning curve it went pretty well. 
Controlling the dust was important for me. 

The outside temperature reached 100 degrees a couple of days.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Gab, I Googled *T & H air chisels* to see what they where. I'm not sure if this is what you're referring to, but I posted a link to a page that popped-up because I think it's a great Home Page to a website and also shows that the owner is proud of his crew.

http://www.trowandholden.com/


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

jb4211 said:


> Gab, I Googled *T & H air chisels* to see what they where. I'm not sure if this is what you're referring to, but I posted a link to a page that popped-up because I think it's a great Home Page to a website and also shows that the owner is proud of his crew.
> 
> http://www.trowandholden.com/


Yeah, we covered that...page 1 :thumbsup:

http://www.contractortalk.com/f48/repointing-113672/


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

JBM said:


> I suppose the guy and his ox can cut down trees with an axe as fast as a guy with a chain saw



I wouldn't bet my fortune on it , but I'd bet a days pay that I could point more sqft in a day by hand with a trowel and slicker than someone using one of those drill tools, def beat someone with a grout bag. Full joints, struck and finished. Oh and way cleaner too


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

So I finally had a chance to locate other side of building on google maps...I didnt have time to get on this estimate just yet but pasting over is not an opton...its painted 



Notice detioration on top,flashing is coming off...not sure if you can see it from here,but...



Another side


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