# Old wiring conventions... Curiosity



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Hi... I'm a GC that is fixing many things on my daughters (new) old home in Marin CA. It is a 1953 build with 2 wire, no ground, with what I call old romex (sheathed in a clothy type cable) and a FedPacific 100amp main (stab-lock). That's not all pertinent to my inquiry.... just to give you a feel of the electrical era. These were production homes, so I'm assuming that the questions/issue below was not some non-standard technique.

I've really never been involved with this old a home. (I'm from Colorado.)

In fixing some wiring, I've found numerous splices (both hot and neutral) in recep or J boxes that are crimped together and well wrapped in tape. Some have a "paste" on the splice which I assume is an insulating type paste (there is no aluminum in the system). There are no wire nuts and the crimps appear to be standard ground crimps.

I guess my curiosity/questions are several.

1) Was this standard splicing in 1953. What is the paste?

2) When did wire nuts come into use.?

3) The boxes are sort of a bakalite plastic and small... about the size of a handy. Many are over filled, and the leads are extreemly short, 2 and 3 inches, and that splice seems to provide less bulk and actually a neater configuration than a wire nut splicing 2-3-4 12 guage wiring. Is that type of splice now non-code legal (except for grand-fathering).??? ( I assume it is, because I've never seen it before).

4) In tracing circuts, I've had to break some of those splices... does anyone have any trick for easily and neatly breaking/cutting those crimps??? (Remembering that my leads are extreemly short, and I can't afford to damage/shorten the leads in removing those crimps.)

Thanks for any history on this or any answers to my questions.

Peter


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

It's your daughter's home change it all out .


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

skillman said:


> It's your daughter's home change it all out .


Thank you for your personal advice.

Any profesional answer as to my 4 questions.???

Peter


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

Crimps are still specified by some jurisdictions for grounds.

Old knob and tube had everything soldered/spliced and wrapped in tape.

If it was me, I'd be changing it out.


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## saynever (Jan 6, 2009)

If you choose not to rewire and have to cut the crimp, these come in handy for those old, short, brittle stubs of wire people tend to leave in boxes. Nothing worse than that super short ground way in the back. 

http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=spliceline&div=0&

As for the crimps being a common practice I don't know. The tube and knob I've seen has mostly been soldered and taped. I have also seen the brass colored metal set screw type connector clamp with a wirenut looking cover for it. My parents house built in 1953 was the architects home in the development and is different than the rest of the models in development. It has the older "snake skin" non metallic cable but has a ground and the splices were made with wirenuts. 

Twist on wire connectors were around in the 20's made of ceramic and than bakealite but the plastic ones from ideal first appeared in the 1960's I believe.


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

saynever said:


> If you choose not to rewire and have to cut the crimp, these come in handy for those old, short, brittle stubs of wire people tend to leave in boxes. Nothing worse than that super short ground way in the back.
> 
> http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=spliceline&div=0&
> 
> ...



The OP is asking about ungrounded Romex. I brought up knob and tube because the tape wrap was commonplace during that era. I've been stripping knob and tube from a commercial building for the last 2 weeks and I have only seen solder joints as well.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Saynever/Dustrin.....Thanks for the continued input/experience/advice.

Actually, because of some personal circumstances, we still have not commenced redoing my daughter's place. (Had planned a complete rewire coincident with major addition)

I've never used those new ideal connectors... I assume they are ul/nec approved. I'll check, but I wonder if they make a parellel connector... verse end-end connector also.

Still have never discovered an easy/clean/efficient way to get that crimp off....usually just some sloppy surgery using end/side nippers.

Best


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Crimps just aren't intended to be removable, period. If you really, really must, end nippers are the most practical way to butcher 'em.

But 98% of the time, you can get by with just cutting them off and save yourself tons of time and frustration.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> Crimps just aren't intended to be removable, period. If you really, really must, end nippers are the most practical way to butcher 'em.
> 
> But 98% of the time, you can get by with just cutting them off and save yourself tons of time and frustration.


Thanks Tin..... Just the same as I have to do.... I was just hopeing there was some trade trick I would discover.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

The crimps were used widely in institutional jobs from what I have seen, they did not want any one to monkey with the wiring at all. No tricks but just cut them off. Are the inner conductors plastic coated or cloth?

The paste could have been liquid tape which was used sometimes.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Plastic/vinyl...not cloth.

These were production built homes in 1953.... can't wait to just redo the whole damn thing.....

but as a temporary measure (and as to tracing some circuits) I had to alter (redistribute some overloaded circuits) and the very short leads in a very small box, makes it a big PIA.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Plastic/vinyl...not cloth.
> 
> These were production built homes in 1953.... can't wait to just redo the whole damn thing.....
> 
> but as a temporary measure (and as to tracing some circuits) I had to alter (redistribute some overloaded circuits) and the very short leads in a very small box, makes it a big PIA.


There are tons of those around here,no problems except for FP panel
Sometimes the ground wire is left on the outside of the box and screwed to the outside of the box if it is metal.
The cloth/cloth wiring is much more of a challenge to work with.


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## Fault Current (Jan 22, 2014)

Crimps and bakelite boxes were the hot ticket years ago before the wire nut became widely available. Sure beat soldering (I still have my blowtorch and soldering coppers) and cheaper than the set screw type. Nobody uses the crimps anymore except for grounds. They are still handy when the leads are short, like you seem to have.

Cut the crimp parallel to the crimp in the part that's folded over, or between the conductors if you can, takes a little doing but if you are careful it can be done easily.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Fault Current said:


> Crimps and bakelite boxes were the hot ticket years ago before the wire nut became widely available. Sure beat soldering (I still have my blowtorch and soldering coppers) and cheaper than the set screw type. Nobody uses the crimps anymore except for grounds. They are still handy when the leads are short, like you seem to have.
> 
> *Cut the crimp parallel to the crimp in the part that's folded over, or between the conductors if you can, takes a little doing but if you are careful it can be done easily*.


Thanks Fault.... That's basically what I try to do.... Ya know, maybe that new tool that's out might help me......Eyeglasses.com


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## Cletis (Mar 2, 2014)

HEre is what I would do Mt LLC if I were in your shoes and conditions. Run some new circuits as needed to take the load off the old stuff. Microwave, stove, dryer, kitchen, etc... (high power stuff) then just check your connections on the old stuff and keep mostly lighting on it. I'd add 1 rec per room for vacuums, space heaters and such. You could also buy meter that simulates a 20 amp load and shows you VD (voltage drop) or "a place where arcing may happen" under large loads. I use a CT80 Extech to determine this. Typically, we do this for around $ 2,000-$ 4,000 retail so you could do yourself for a couple hundred dollars or so and maybe 20-40 hrs of labor. 

Good luck


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Thanks Cletus.... I agree... 

and should note that plans are in complete reno/development process, a part of which I'll be changing out the old FedPac 100A service to 200. ... and mostly (plan all) all new branches, as it is an ungrounded system for the most part.

One circuit in the kitchen was the only part of the house that turned out with a potential overload situation.....and I was able to reconfigure the potential overload to a minimum demand lighting circut. (Couldn't add a new circuit to the old FP panel.)

Best


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