# The Rush to Electric Vehicles



## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

Has there been any studies as to how much rare earth materials exist around the globe to manufacture all the batteries required if everyone is forced into electric and the batteries are trashed every 7-10 years?

I'd hate to see uneducated politicians make far reaching and rushed decisions to get us all onto a transportation platform that only has a few decade lifespan.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm happy to stick with traditional combustion for a good while. But they'll figure it out eventually, including recycling (which they say they can't do). As I understand it, rare earths aren't rare, just dirty to mine and produce. Lithium.. more limited, but that'll be probably be replaced with another element.

Keep an eye on hydrogen. That's coming.


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## Mesilla Valley (Jun 10, 2020)

Here’s a article if you want to geek out on latest battery tech news. Developer Of Aluminum-Ion Battery Claims It Charges 60 Times Faster Than Lithium-Ion, Offering EV Range Breakthrough


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

There have been crude estimates based on reserves and production rates.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Electric buses are getting some bad press.









Report: Bus Fire Causes CA Agency to Consider Retiring Electric Buses


An electric bus went up in flames while charging in a California city that is reportedly thinking about removing them from the road.




www.breitbart.com


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

wallmaxx said:


> Has there been any studies as to how much rare earth materials exist around the globe to manufacture all the batteries required if everyone is forced into electric and the batteries are trashed every 7-10 years?
> 
> I'd hate to see uneducated politicians make far reaching and rushed decisions to get us all onto a transportation platform that only has a few decade lifespan.


It all has to start somewhere. Lion battery's are the first that are a workable solution for a vehicle. Others are on the horizon. Solid state battery's have been getting a lot of chatter, if they pan out lithium is done. 
Electric vehicles are just so darn sensible. Very little noise, no exhaust, amazing torque, little to no maintenance, no oil changes, and very few moving parts. What's not to love?


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## G&Co. (Jul 29, 2020)

wallmaxx said:


> how much rare earth materials exist around the globe to manufacture all the batteries required if everyone is forced into electric


Which specific "rare earth materials" are you talking about?
EV batteries use cobalt and lithium, both of which are not rare earth. EV batteries are not very different from tool batteries, solar storage batteries and so on.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

G&Co. said:


> Which specific "rare earth materials" are you talking about?
> EV batteries use cobalt and lithium, both of which are not rare earth. EV batteries are not very different from tool batteries, solar storage batteries and so on.











Electric vehicles and rare earths: Key to the electric revolution | Edison


Could the mid-term growth potential of EVs and neomagnets drive demand for rare earth elements to levels never seen before?




www.edisongroup.com


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Everybody having an ebike is doable, everyone having an ecar or truck isn't.


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

The aluminum ion (with graphine) batts would be a game changer. They solve virtually all current batt issues, while out performing them.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Research publicity may say it's just around the corner when it's already known it isn't viable.

Maybe there's a corner, maybe they're standing outside the coliseum.


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## G&Co. (Jul 29, 2020)

Robie:








Rare opportunity to recycle rare earths


New technologies could lead to new opportunities for recyclers, particularly those handling electronics.




www.recyclingtoday.com


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

G&Co. said:


> Robie:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's great. 
I was just responding as it sounded like you didn't think rare earth materials were being used that much in electric cars.

All's good.


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## G&Co. (Jul 29, 2020)

Right. The OP assumed that rare earth materials were used in batteries, which is not the case. They are used in high efficiency magnets and magnets are used in some electric motors. EV motors are pretty much good for life and then can be recycled. I'm more worried about rare earth magnets being used in throw-away devices like cell phones and various consumer electronics like speakers.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

We are still a whole battery generation away from it becoming extremely viable, although it is pretty awesome in some applications.

Once there is another big leap forward in energy storage, things will get interesting.

Electric vehicles themselves are cool as hell, way fewer parts, less maintenance, 100% available torque through the entire RPM range, there is a lot that they can do better than combustion engines. Right now, that is not the ability to store energy for long trips or rapidly refuel though.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Mesilla Valley said:


> Here’s a article if you want to geek out on latest battery tech news. Developer Of Aluminum-Ion Battery Claims It Charges 60 Times Faster Than Lithium-Ion, Offering EV Range Breakthrough
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Where is 60x the current going to come from?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Pounder said:


> It all has to start somewhere. Lion battery's are the first that are a workable solution for a vehicle. Others are on the horizon. Solid state battery's have been getting a lot of chatter, if they pan out lithium is done.
> Electric vehicles are just so darn sensible. Very little noise, no exhaust, amazing torque, little to no maintenance, no oil changes, and very few moving parts. What's not to love?


The fact that the pollution and carbon footprint of an electric vehicle is more up front than an ICE vehicle.


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## G&Co. (Jul 29, 2020)

Leo G said:


> Where is 60x the current going to come from?


480 3-phase. You don't have it in your garage?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I don't have it in my shop either. Only 208 3 phase 100amp


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

Leo G said:


> The fact that the pollution and carbon footprint of an electric vehicle is more up front than an ICE vehicle.


That statement needs a few "if's" and one or two "depending on'".


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

Always wondered if the information in this picture is accurate. 









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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Using diesel machinery to mine the elements needed in the production of the batteries and magnets does an upfront load with fossil fuels and carbon footprint much more so than an ICE engine does. In the end they are both pretty equal with the ICE engine being a little better than the electric.


And post #21 above.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Can't they just mine with EV's?!...


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## Mesilla Valley (Jun 10, 2020)

Lettusbee said:


> Always wondered if the information in this picture is accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I call bs, 21 billion gallons would cost say at $3.00 per gallon $63 billion. 250,000 cars at $70,000 would be 17.5 billion. Volvo, Cat,Kamatsu are coming out with electric earth moving equipment.
After 10 years the packs are charging to around 70 percent charge. Maybe not great for cars but lots are repurposed for home backup. 
Typically home charging is at 48 amps, good for 200 + miles on an overnight session.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

Lettusbee said:


> Always wondered if the information in this picture is accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's an interesting bit of information. 21 billion gallons of fuel at say $2 a gallon? that's 42 billion dollars in fuel costs without any other expenses, like equipment or labor. That produces two hundred and fifty thousand batteries. The equation in it's simplest form is 42,000,000,000 / 250,000 = $168,000 for the batteries in each electric vehicle. That has to be the biggest loss leader in the history of ever.

So now we have our answer. The information presented is propaganda. Completely false information used to sway the thinking of the unwashed masses.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Anybody that thinks electric will be best, just wait till you get the repair bill @ the shop on that one. If & when shops add equiptment to keep up, many will fold. Little off topic, it will never make it to NASCAR or the drag strip.

Mike


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

A really bad move to go 100% in on something that is controlled by only a couple other nations.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

Kingcarpenter1 said:


> Anybody that thinks electric will be best, just wait till you get the repair bill @ the shop on that one. If & when shops add equiptment to keep up, many will fold. Little off topic, it will never make it to NASCAR or the drag strip.
> 
> Mike


The bill will be less than the fuel savings.


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## Mesilla Valley (Jun 10, 2020)

Kingcarpenter1 said:


> Anybody that thinks electric will be best, just wait till you get the repair bill @ the shop on that one. If & when shops add equiptment to keep up, many will fold. Little off topic, it will never make it to NASCAR or the drag strip.
> 
> Mike


So for the ones not keeping up with the tech the cool thing about electric is instant full torque. New Tesla plaid runs 9 seconds at the drag strip,stock. New Ford lightning will be 4 wheel drive with 775 ft lbs for $40k. Tesla plaid won class at pikes peak race this year with 1 week prep time. 
As for the repair bill, there are far fewer parts in the drive train to fail. No oil changes. As long as I’m using it on normal days and changing at home over night I’ll not have to stop to charge, ever. 


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

In my opinion in the foreseeable future internal combustion engines will be as common as a corded power tool

Look how fast our power tools went completely cordless

10 years ago I would have never thought a battery powered concrete saw would be even possible, now the battery saw is my favorite, most used saw, 

My gas saw is only get used when I need to do heavy duty cutting


David


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Off the top of my head, just about every single apartment panel would need an upgrade, as well as generation and distribution capacity. Cordless tools and ebikes don't require that.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> Off the top of my head, just about every single apartment panel would need an upgrade, as well as generation and distribution capacity. Cordless tools and ebikes don't require that.


Yeah, and what happens to the sun when everyone has solar on their house?!... it'll drain it's battery and then what?!...


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

hdavis said:


> Off the top of my head, just about every single apartment panel would need an upgrade, as well as generation and distribution capacity. Cordless tools and ebikes don't require that.


Gas stations and Infrastructure were not built overnight to support all of the gas vehicles on the road, Like anything else there is going to be a transition.

Personally I am considering my next vehicle to be an electric one. I have multiple vehicles In my household but I think it would be nice having an electric vehicle to putt around town with 

I can see a lot of two car families having at least one electric vehicle in the near future, The electric for most of the commuting to and from work and driving town around plus a second gas vehicle for road trips 


David


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Mesilla Valley said:


> So for the ones not keeping up with the tech the cool thing about electric is instant full torque. New Tesla plaid runs 9 seconds at the drag strip,stock. New Ford lightning will be 4 wheel drive with 775 ft lbs for $40k. Tesla plaid won top class at pikes peak race this year with 1 week prep time.
> As for the repair bill, there are far fewer parts in the drive train to fail. No oil changes. As long as I’m using it on normal days and changing at home over night I’ll not have to stop to charge, ever.


Well aware of the instant torque etc. Will never fly in NASCAR or strip. Personally I drive well over 300 miles some days & I realize it will get better. They have been talking doing away w/ oil giants how long now? It might get to 50% some day, but a full switch ain’t happening. They were talking such when I was a kid

Mike


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Windycity said:


> In my opinion in the foreseeable future internal combustion engines will be as common as a corded power tool
> 
> Look how fast our power tools went completely cordless
> 
> ...


Because we demanded it and the technology supported it. Currently the technology is in its infancy for electric vehicles. You can get a 20v battery charger and plug it into the wall almost anywhere. It's drawing a few amperes and it takes a 1/2 hour+ to charge this tiny battery.

Now you are into an entirely different realm of power where batteries are rated in 100s if not 1000s of kWh's and the currents they pull off the grid are huge. And while this might be fine for a few cars as a novelty - once you get one in every garage it changes the picture entirely. 

We don't have the technology or the infrastructure in place to manage what they envision.

It's hard to do this slowly because you need the infrastructure to be in place completely even for a small percentage of people driving the EV's. They need to be able to plug in anywhere (like a gas station to a ICE vehicle) so they can continue their trip. And you need to be able to put substantial miles into a battery in a 10 minute time period to make it as convenient as an ICE vehicle. We aren't close to being there yet. And to further the issues they want to get rid of fossil fuel based power generation when currently it doesn't even have a chance of supplying enough energy to let everyone have an EV.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Switching from horse or steam to ICE was compelling..


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

What about fighter aircraft and tanks and other vehicles for fighting wars?


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Grids are stretched as is. Serious infrastructure to say little

Mike


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Plug them in.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

wallmaxx said:


> What about fighter aircraft and tanks and other vehicles for fighting wars?


Hydrogen.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

NYCB said:


> How is that different from a car with an internal combustion engine? They wear out and get scrapped the same as anything else that outlives
> 
> 
> NYCB said:
> ...


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## Mesilla Valley (Jun 10, 2020)

Fleet use of Tesla cars. Some driven up to 17,000 miles per month with charging to 100% multiple times a day. Kind of a ev torture test. Sounds like they held up well but not without some problems. Another article quoted .05 cents per mile compared to previous .22 cents with towns cars. Here's What Happens to Tesla Electric Cars After 300,000 Miles | Digital Trends

Hope the Ford lightning coming out next year comes close to this performance.
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## Djea3 (Jul 6, 2020)

KAP said:


> Yeah, and what happens to the sun when everyone has solar on their house?!... it'll drain it's battery and then what?!...


The average life expectancy of a solar panel is 15 to 25 years, the DO USE rare earth metals and thier eco cost is staggering. Their efficiency is suspect in many places and the maintenance for the average homeowner absurd, for example in winter in snow. How about scraping the snow/ice from the collectors daily or more often? However, if we require solar water heat before any photovoltaics there is a huge chance of long term sustainable cost. Remember that in the early 1900's EVERY home and business in southern Florida had solar water heat.


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## Djea3 (Jul 6, 2020)

Lettusbee said:


> I want to go solar and cut off the utility company.
> Not that thats legal here, but that's what I'd like to do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


And that is a travesty. There is NO excuse for requiring utility hookup if you can prove self-sufficiency. I am sure a federal suit will happen some day that ends it.


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## Djea3 (Jul 6, 2020)

Ohio painter said:


> I get that Leo but isn't that the case with the vehicles we currently produce and production of the fuel to run them ? Not trying to be smart.
> 
> I know a factory local to me recently switched all their forklift trucks from propane power to electric. My friend who is a manager at the facility told me that they are trying to go to a pollution free facility, I said that's all well and good but they are just shoveling in more coal down at the power plant. He agreed, it is all about feeling good but ignoring the big picture.


I have been in companies that use all electric fork trucks. They are usually powered by lead acid batteries. That is sort of OK until you see the damage the acids in the air do to metal and electrical systems. Sometimes it is so bad that one can not breath just walking by. It happens a LOT.


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## Mesilla Valley (Jun 10, 2020)

Djea3 said:


> The average life expectancy of a solar panel is 15 to 25 years, the DO USE rare earth metals and thier eco cost is staggering. Their efficiency is suspect in many places and the maintenance for the average homeowner absurd, for example in winter in snow. How about scraping the snow/ice from the collectors daily or more often? However, if we require solar water heat before any photovoltaics there is a huge chance of long term sustainable cost. Remember that in the early 1900's EVERY home and business in southern Florida had solar water heat.


Are rare earths used in solar panels? 
My panels are warranted for 25 years to be 90 efficient at that time. The panels in more northern climates than mine are typically mounted with a significant angle because of the height of the sun nominally through the year. This allows for snow to typically slide off quickly with any amount of sun. Rare earths for the most part are not that rare. See article. Solar panels don’t typically use rare earths. See article. Have had my panels for three years and have had no expenses and really don’t know what you are talking about them being expensive to maintain. Have friends with old systems over 10 years with no expenses in that time.
Worked in a factory a long time ago with battery powered forklifts and golf carts to get around. I remember the smell of ozone. My plug in hybrid car has no smell at all in the fully electric mode.
Rare earths occupy a line on the periodic table and get their name from a time when they were rarely mined because people didn’t know what to do with them. I’m married to a geology professor.


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