# Please help Going out of business need advice



## jac04151975 (May 9, 2010)

I am a General Contractor and do to financial difficulty Im going out of business the last to jobs I had were big and I finished them to the point i didnt pay child support traffic tickets which got my license suspended and my truck which is up for repossession I finely just had to get a real job for fourty hours a week. The last job I had was a room addition which went rough and over budget and is finished at the same job I had another contract to landscape the back yard put concrete and a rock formation but after I started the customer completely change what they wanted and it was going to cost more so i tried to do a change order but they refused saying i have to do all the extra work I did everything but the rock formation and currently need money to inactivate my license. The client is still buging me and has even gone to my wifes work. Honestly im new and not sure what to do. Im in california


----------



## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Welcome to Contractor Talk.

What exactly is your question?

From your post, it sounds as though you have brought some of your misfortune upon yourself.

Please do an intro in the introduction section and in this post please clarify what it is that you are asking here.


----------



## jac04151975 (May 9, 2010)

*What would u do in my situation*

What would you do in my situation. Im inactivating my license because it expired and i cant pay for the renewal. Can i continue a job with out a license. Do I have to give in to the old customer. Im also curious about how the license law s effect this situation.


----------



## J87513 (Jan 15, 2007)

Learn Canadian or Spanish.


----------



## rjconstructs (Apr 26, 2009)

It sounds like a mess. I can't give any advice on the license, we aren't required to be licensed here. Hopefully, you will get it sorted out. There may be someone on here from California that can help you out.


----------



## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

I feel for you and the situation you are in. As far as "what would I do" I would have handled the situations as they presented themselves in order to avoid being in your situation as described. I am guessing that you had opportunities to manage these problems prior to their current crisis status.

There is a poster here (License guru) who can guide you with regard to Cali laws and your rights.

If you explain in a bit more detail just how you arrived in the spot you are in, perhaps you can get a little bit more guidance in how to manage your situation.

From what you have given us so far however, it still sounds like you are reaping the consequences of a situation that you created.

Please set us straight.


----------



## AllanE (Apr 25, 2010)

jac04151975 said:


> What would you do in my situation. Im inactivating my license because it expired and i cant pay for the renewal. Can i continue a job with out a license. Do I have to give in to the old customer. Im also curious about how the license law s effect this situation.


 
Email Dick Seibert, he is in California and knows license laws well.

[email protected]


----------



## jac04151975 (May 9, 2010)

*Im going to see a lawyer monday*

Thanks everybody Im going to see a lawyer monday and do what he tells me to do. If I have too do what the customer wants I will or what ever I have to.


----------



## buildenterprise (Dec 4, 2007)

If you had a dollar for all the periods you missed in that big-as* run-on sentence you could probably pay for the license renewal.:blink:

I'm out of breath just from reading it.....


----------



## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

jac04151975 said:


> *What would you do in my situation*. Im inactivating my license because it expired and i cant pay for the renewal. Can i continue a job with out a license. Do I have to give in to the old customer. Im also curious about how the license law s effect this situation.


Pay your child support!:furious:


----------



## jac04151975 (May 9, 2010)

*I am paying my child support*

I am paying my child support now and my ex is working with me too, because of the situation. My ex and kids are actually doing good.I understand your concern the situation will get worked out. I feel I full filled my end of the contract and they also signed my terms and conditions which say they have to notify me in writing of any problem with in 5 days of completion. I'm just new to having a business and going through some rough times.


----------



## jac04151975 (May 9, 2010)

The customer is basically asking for 20,000 dollars of work for a 3000 dollar contract. They are also harassing me and my family. They are trying to bully me into doing more work for them for free. Im working now and really like my new job allot less stress. Ill try again in a couple years after I take some business classes and get wiser.


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

First thing you screwed up was doing the work that the client wanted that was different without the change order signed. What were you thinking? Why would you do all the extra work for no extra money? If the client wanted something different than the contract that they had signed previously and refused to sign a change order and refused to let you do what was on the original contract then the original contract was in breach. At that point you should have gotten a lawyer involved. 

You let it keep going until you had no money and were not able to renew your license. Now, because you have no license you cannot work. game set match.


----------



## jac04151975 (May 9, 2010)

Sorry about the spelling, the run on sentences, English isn't my best subject.


----------



## jac04151975 (May 9, 2010)

Leo G You are absolutely right. I have learned my lesson and seeing a lawyer Monday.


----------



## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

jac04151975 said:


> Sorry about the spelling, the run on sentences, English isn't my best subject.


I woulda guessed math.


----------



## jac04151975 (May 9, 2010)

I can still renew my License but I really dont want to if I dont have to. I just want to inactivate it for now and stay working at my new job.


----------



## jac04151975 (May 9, 2010)

Thanks Leo G for mentioning that the customer is in breach of contract for not signing my change order that makes me feel allot better.


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

There are a lot of ways that this can be interpreted. And lawyers have a way of making things seem as they are not. If you had completed the work on the contract you would have a better chance with the system. You just need documentation that the client refused or prevented you from doing that work. A lot of different ways this can go depending on how the lawyers play this out.


----------



## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

jac.

Keep us updated on your situation.

It's great that you have admitted your faults in this situation, and that will go a long way in your case.

As Jumbo Jack mentioned though, make sure that the first check you mail is for child support since that is the one that really matters.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Tell them to go fly a kite.


----------



## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

Some people aren't cut out to run a business. I'm not saying you're not but....well yeah, I guess I am. It sounds like you have a regular job and that's great. 

One of the big things in business is communication, written and verbal which you obviously could use some work but hey I'm not Egar Allen Poe either. Just out of curiosity, did you write your own contract? 

Good luck.


----------



## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

what was the scope of work for the original 3000? how many items did they add on? I'm sorry to see you in such a bad situation, some guys may think they would have done it differently but you sound like you are young and hindsight is always 20/20. truth is, not all of us on this board always do everyting perfectly ever single day of our lives. no one is perfect. don't beat yourself up. best thing you can do is get this customer to agree to sign change orders or you just have to walk. if the original contract is completed, you are under no obligation to finish work if they have not agreed to it and have no paid you for it. I am not in cali, so I can't help you with the license part. how much is the renewal?
if it's not too much, renew it, and try to smooth things out with this client. the fact that they are threatening your family is not good, how long has this been going on? are they happy with any of the work you have done or is everything incomplete?
let us know some more info.

thanks and good luck.


----------



## Osito (Mar 4, 2008)

Don't get me wrong, but get a back bone and quit being a spinless jelly fish, make it clear to the client that you will do what you said you would do, if thay make changes it is on them. Don't sale your sole. Complete the job as contracted!!!!:innocent:


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I'd forget the whole thing. What are they going to do, stand in line to reposses your truck? Glad you got a job, keep it forever. Just cause you know how to build something with your hands doesn't mean you should be doing it being self-employed. The two are totally unrelated.

I same shame on those cheap ass customers hiring a totally incompetent contractor. No doubt they were seduced by a low price and it sounds like they got what they paid for. 

Every time I have put an ad out for employment I get dozens and dozens of "contractors" who have been out on their own for 12 months... 18 months... ect... things were going good, then it all went to sh*t. Whenever I have asked them about their back ground, they are all the same... flipped a house or two and became a GC... worked for some handyman for a year and became a GC... It's totally absurd and this is the result, it's happening every day in every part of the country over and over again. No experience, no logical reason to be self-employed other than a whim.

If I was you, I'd wash my hands of the whole thing, focus on your new job and be a good employee for as long as you can.


----------



## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Easy there Osito,

The OP admitted his mistakes. He came here for advice.

Let's see how this plays out for him and support him unless he gives us reason to suspect otherwise.

As long as he is paying his child support, everything else is trivial and I for one will help him.


----------



## andybean (Mar 17, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your situation jac. I am in California and can give you a little bit of information regarding the licensing part of your situation. First, if your license is expired you cannot inactivate it. Also, there is no fee to inactivate your license. 

To answer your question about whether you can continue a job without a license, no you cannot. Be careful, you could be disciplined if you continue the job with an expired or inactivated license. The last thing you want is for these homeowners to check on your license, see it is expired or inactive, and file a complaint against you for contracting without a current license. 

As for the contract issue, here is a problem I see with the information you provided. The original contract included a rock formation. There is nothing in writing changing that scope of work, nothing showing that the rock formation was no longer a part of the contract. But you have not done the rock formation. The homeowners could claim that you have breached the contract. 

Yes, Leo G is correct that had the homeowners refused to sign a change order and refused to let you do what was on the original contract then they would have been in breach. Unfortunately that is not what happened because you proceeded to do the extra work but you did not do the work in the original contract (i.e., the rock formation). Basically, it became an oral modification and your actions could suggest that you accepted that modification. BUT it is unlikely that even an oral modification for extra work exists because there is no added compensation for you. You're talking about a job going from $3000 to $20,000, rather than an extra few hundred bucks. 

The question becomes: Did the homeowners still want the rock formation? Or when they changed their mind and you did the modified work was it in place of the rock formation? Any other work they are claiming you are required to do that is not in the original scope of work doesn't matter. The written contract will always trump any oral claims.

Do you have _anything_ in writing? Emails? Text messages? Are there any witnesses to what you and the homeowners discussed?


----------



## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> I'd forget the whole thing. What are they going to do, stand in line to reposses your truck? Glad you got a job, keep it forever. Just cause you know how to build something with your hands doesn't mean you should be doing it being self-employed. The two are totally unrelated.
> 
> I same shame on those cheap ass customers hiring a totally incompetent contractor. No doubt they were seduced by a low price and it sounds like they got what they paid for.
> 
> ...


Mike

I see what you are saying here and agree to a point. But think about the guys that go on their own and succeed. I never had formal business training when my boss died of cancer, after I had worked for him for 5 years, I was unsure of what to do for the better part of a year before I started my own business. There are many success stories and you can't fault some people for attempting to go on their own, sometimes it does work out. I am struggling now with the down economy but the last two years haven't been too bad, just smaller jobs. I have been on my own for close to 10 years and still wonder what's going to happen if things get worse in this country. This guy may not be a good business person but you don't know the exact circumstances that made him go out on his own or try. perhaps he had many customers that were completely happy and now he has some that are hard to please. we need more info before we throw him completely under the bus. It's too easy to sit back and bash people when you don't know all the facts and assume certain things. 
THis guy has admitted his faults and is ready to move on. He's simply asking for advice from guys in California regarding his license and what to do with this contract. All of us have had jobs at one time where the customers change or add things that aren't a big deal and we do them, perhaps they are a repeat customer etc and you get comfortable with them and know you won't have a problem. Sometimes they are simple changes, sometimes not. If it's a lot of money involved then change orders are really important right away before any extra work is done. I have some great long time customers that I have no problems with even working doing extra work. new customers I get more in writing than one that have been with me for while. 

Good luck to you in your new job. I hope it works out for you. Keep your head up and know that you tried and it's ok to fail, people fail and go out of business all the time. Being self-employed isn't for everyone. 

keep us up to date.


----------



## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*Go see a lawyer.......*

Consult with a Lawyer I think he/she can guide you in what steps to take, and I hope all everything turns around for the better for you:thumbsup:
Brian


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

ApgarNJ said:


> Mike
> 
> I see what you are saying here and agree to a point. But think about the guys that go on their own and succeed. I never had formal business training when my boss died of cancer, after I had worked for him for 5 years, I was unsure of what to do for the better part of a year before I started my own business. There are many success stories and you can't fault some people for attempting to go on their own, sometimes it does work out. I am struggling now with the down economy but the last two years haven't been too bad, just smaller jobs. I have been on my own for close to 10 years and still wonder what's going to happen if things get worse in this country. This guy may not be a good business person but you don't know the exact circumstances that made him go out on his own or try. perhaps he had many customers that were completely happy and now he has some that are hard to please. we need more info before we throw him completely under the bus. It's too easy to sit back and bash people when you don't know all the facts and assume certain things.
> THis guy has admitted his faults and is ready to move on. He's simply asking for advice from guys in California regarding his license and what to do with this contract. All of us have had jobs at one time where the customers change or add things that aren't a big deal and we do them, perhaps they are a repeat customer etc and you get comfortable with them and know you won't have a problem. Sometimes they are simple changes, sometimes not. If it's a lot of money involved then change orders are really important right away before any extra work is done. I have some great long time customers that I have no problems with even working doing extra work. new customers I get more in writing than one that have been with me for while.
> ...


This is the exact reason that our industry is filled with what it is filled with. The idea that nobody should be dissuaded from starting their own business, as if it's the logical step of every single person in the trades.

Go start a restaurant, go start a sporting goods store, a golf pro shop, a boat building company or whatever you want, then let's talk about things like business plans... financing... etc...

Instead in the trades you save up enough to have a beat up pickup, maybe have a few tools, you spend $20 on business cards, and you figured out how to build a few decks so you're now a deck builder. You go out, you struggle, if you did this prior to 2006, you just had to show up and if you didn't totally suck you probably could find so much work by just showing up that you looked like you actually knew what you were doing. You made enough money to get by, you still were a low baller and still taking pride in doing it way cheaper than your boss who was able to pay your wages, who was 'ripping' off customers with his high prices, you've got beer money now, and you're still doing nothing for the industry....

etc... etc.. etc...

There is more than one way to go into business. 

Hope and a prayer isn't the way to do it. This recession has exposed the fallacy of this prior method that everybody even today has not figured out is not an acceptable method. Working for a year as a flipper or 2 years from somebody else and calling yourself a GC and going out and f'ing up projects, low-balling, hiring your buddy under the table, buying everything at Home Depot... trying to get by only to end up like our pall here... nothing to be proud of or promote to younger members of our industry as the ole - _everybody starts somewhere_ line. Telling our youngsters - go on try it, people fail and go out of business all the time is wrong.

Tell them to apprentice, learn your trade, take your time, spend some time in the trades seeing if their is a career there, explore the trades...

That is the first step, it should be it's own step. Self-employment is not the logical leap for every single person just because it might be fun or you want to be your own boss, it's a choice like deciding you want to work in the roofing trades or the HVAC trades, it's a career choice that should be explored not leapt into with the idea, it's no big deal to fail, go BK, take down customers, leave debt at supply houses, have your truck repo'd, not be able to make child support payments.

Ready, aim, fire. Not fire, aim, ready. :thumbsup:


----------



## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

One problem with "going to see a lawyer" - as a former lawyer, if a client walks in and tells me their truck is being repossessed and they don't have money to renew their license - well then - cash money up front or don't let the door hit you on the way out. You see, it will take money to get out of this mess.

I don't know Cali law, other than that the state is completely messed up to begin with. Andybean offers some good advice and input. I would onkly add that letting your license expire is 99% probability a breach on your behalf as well. Obviously, we have not seen the contract, but I would almost guarantee that there is a rep and warranty in their that includes you being "able", and or "of ability", and or "properly licensed" to complete the job.

However, reading through all the posted tidbits - let me remins you that breach is a two way street.


----------



## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

I agree with Andybean and Mike Finley. I am a contractor in CA, and I have a BA degree in Business Management. The degree is fine, but I have 30 years of running businesses to back it up too. 

Just because you know a trade and are somewhat good with it ( I am assuming all this) doesn't mean you should go into business. From my experience, I would say that over 90% of the guys I see that have a trade skill that go into business on their own fail, period. Mike Finley hit all the nails on the head with his reasoning for this. 

In this case, I can see that getting your CA Contractors Lic. was not an instant gateway to throngs of clients -- it doesn't work that way. For the last four or five years, contractors have had to compete against every "out of work" construction worker, illegals, handymen, and "going down the tubes" GC that is out there. It sucks, but that's the way it is. It is not easy. It takes money, business skill and tenacity ( and some luck too) to survive and grow. This is why most small businesses die in the first 5 years. 

When it comes to the CA contractors license. If its expired and you didn't renew it when you got notification several months ago - for whatever reason -- you just might be totally screwed. You should call the CA CSLB and explain your situation and see if they are will to let you petition the board for some leniency in allowing the license to be changed to inactive. There is a lot of info on the CSLB site that will help you with this and will let you know what your options are prior to you calling them. 

The main factors I see here are: Not enough savings and income to survive, too many other financial obligations, the extremely poor economic climate in CA, and not enough business knowledge to know what to do to get past the roadblocks that are already in place. 

I agree that the best thing for you to do is work this 40 hour per week job. Take business classes (like management, accounting, planning, estimating) while you are working. Pay off your debts, get back on track with child support. Once you and your current wife have socked away around 60 to 70 thousand dollars in the bank, you MIGHT think about going into business again - but your need to have a solid financial and business plan.


----------



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

jac04151975 said:


> The customer is basically asking for 20,000 dollars of work for a 3000 dollar contract. They are also harassing me and my family. They are trying to bully me into doing more work for them for free. Im working now and really like my new job allot less stress. Ill try again in a couple years after I take some business classes and get wiser.


Well, I don't buy it. You rack up not just a ticket, but many tickets that you can't pay. You can't pay the car. you can't pay your child support. You can't pay your obligations. It seems to me you have general trouble doing the walk.


----------



## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Osito said:


> . Don't sale your sole. Complete the job as contracted!!!!:innocent:


I believe it is don't sell your soul. Well unless you are so broke that you have to sell the soles off you boots at a deep discount sale.


----------



## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> This is the exact reason that our industry is filled with what it is filled with. The idea that nobody should be dissuaded from starting their own business, as if it's the logical step of every single person in the trades.
> 
> Go start a restaurant, go start a sporting goods store, a golf pro shop, a boat building company or whatever you want, then let's talk about things like business plans... financing... etc...
> 
> ...


for crying out loud mike , I never said everyone should be out there in their own business, nor did I say someone with no experience should be out there starting their own business. The fact is that a many of us learned after the fact how to run the business outside of the actual jobsite. Not everyone has gone to a college for a degree in business. 
do I wish I could get rid of all hacks out there? sure. is it going to happen, probably not. this is America mike you can't stop people from wanting to better their lifestyles. everyone doesn't have a perfect life. if someone wants to start a business after being trained for several years in that field, there is nothing wrong with it, I give them more credit for trying than I do if they just sit back and say they are too lazy to work for themselves and make their own paycheck that they will get be ok just getting paid a lot less as employee. I totally understand that most employees can't run their own business, but there are may successful contractors out there who didn't have a life's dream of being a business owner and working in the trades, some learned the hard way and are still in business today, is there anything wrong with that??? you act as if everything associated with a business is going to be perfect all the time and that people aren't allowed to make mistakes. I'm not saying the OP should be out there in business if it's not for him, but maybe people have to figure that out on their own, not be badmouthed and made to feel bad about decisions they have made. Everyone has their own life and everyone's life is different, everyone circumstances surrounding their business or life is different. Most employees are not going to go out on their own, some try and fail, some don't, some become successful. It's about wanting to better your life and so it's natural for someone to want to be their own boss. I feel bad for some guys going out of business. I know of guys who have done the trades for 20-30 years who are suffering, are you going to call them hacks and tell them that they never should have started their business to begin with? 
I'm sick of some of the attitudes towards people who are looking for advice because they made some mistakes.


----------



## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

cwatbay said:


> I agree with Andybean and Mike Finley. I am a contractor in CA, and I have a BA degree in Business Management. The degree is fine, but I have 30 years of running businesses to back it up too.
> 
> Just because you know a trade and are somewhat good with it ( I am assuming all this) doesn't mean you should go into business. From my experience, I would say that over 90% of the guys I see that have a trade skill that go into business on their own fail, period. Mike Finley hit all the nails on the head with his reasoning for this.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you say to a point. all depends how big you want your business to be. I know many business where it's just the owner and a helper or two. and none of them have business degrees like you have. I also know many people with degrees in business that know nothing about being a contractor, they might know the accounting and marketing side of things, but does that make them qualified to actually go out and remodel someone's home? or maybe it makes them qualified to SUB out everything possible and make a % on top of it and never touch a tool, that is what you call a paper contractor. I have more respect for someone who doesn't have a business degree but has worked in the trades long enough and done his homework enough to start his own business and succeed because he will continue to learn and better himself. I have less respect for the guy on the phone all day who couldn't drive a nail into some framing or install a kitchen if a gun was held to his head, but hey, he's got a degree! I guess that means everything. I have learned a lot about running a business over the last 10 years, and I have a college degree but not in business administration or anything related to that. Does that mean I should have just stayed an employee? I live in NJ, there is no way i could have stayed living in one of the richest counties in the country being just an employee for some contractor. My boss died of cancer. I was given a choice and chose to start my own business and no I didn't have 60k saved up to do so. I did it the hard way and my way and have been successful doing so. I rarely advertise and get all my work by word of mouth. I like being a small company with one or two helpers. That doesn't make me less successful than the guy with 20 employees who talks on the phone all day and never touches a tool, I just know that my work is probably of higher quality because I am in control of it first hand, not going back to fix something some bonehead messed up because I left my employees on the job all day and never showed up. you don't need to have a dozen trucks and employees to be successful in business. many guys on this site are one or two man shows and have been doing it a long time. i see nothing wrong with that at all.


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

ApgarNJ said:


> for crying out loud mike , I never said everyone should be out there in their own business, nor did I say someone with no experience should be out there starting their own business. The fact is that a many of us learned after the fact how to run the business outside of the actual jobsite. Not everyone has gone to a college for a degree in business.
> do I wish I could get rid of all hacks out there? sure. is it going to happen, probably not. this is America mike you can't stop people from wanting to better their lifestyles. everyone doesn't have a perfect life. if someone wants to start a business after being trained for several years in that field, there is nothing wrong with it, I give them more credit for trying than I do if they just sit back and say they are too lazy to work for themselves and make their own paycheck that they will get be ok just getting paid a lot less as employee. I totally understand that most employees can't run their own business, but there are may successful contractors out there who didn't have a life's dream of being a business owner and working in the trades, some learned the hard way and are still in business today, is there anything wrong with that??? you act as if everything associated with a business is going to be perfect all the time and that people aren't allowed to make mistakes. I'm not saying the OP should be out there in business if it's not for him, but maybe people have to figure that out on their own, not be badmouthed and made to feel bad about decisions they have made. Everyone has their own life and everyone's life is different, everyone circumstances surrounding their business or life is different. Most employees are not going to go out on their own, some try and fail, some don't, some become successful. It's about wanting to better your life and so it's natural for someone to want to be their own boss. I feel bad for some guys going out of business. I know of guys who have done the trades for 20-30 years who are suffering, are you going to call them hacks and tell them that they never should have started their business to begin with?
> I'm sick of some of the attitudes towards people who are looking for advice because they made some mistakes.


Where in go out and give it a go is - learning accounting, learning marketing, learning credit management, learning financing, learning customer service, learning about taxes, learning about payroll... etc... etc.. 

Being proficient at the trade work your company provides means all you know is the trade work and you now have about 10% of all that is required to run a successful business under your belt. 

If you only knew 10% of the knowledge you needed to do your trade work how qualified are you?

I know it pisses you off, cause that's how you did it, you got lucky, you scratched it out. Luck isn't anything to base a business on. Coming where you came from maybe you'd be more receptive to taking a long look at all the pain and hardship you went through to get where you are today and maybe say, damn, that wasn't the smartest thing I ever did, and probably not the way to go.

You should separate the emotion from the equation.

Let me ask you, if you were going to lend the hard earned money out of your bank account right now to somebody and you had two people to decide on who was going to get your money, how much of a guarantee would you want that you were going to get it back instead of the guy's phone number being disconnected in 18 months?

If you had two guys and one was the guy you are tauting as the way to go, just winging it, and the other guy was the guy who has 10 years or more in his trade, has been taking classes in business, accounting... etc... has saved up $20,000 of his own money to match yours, has a written plan that you can read and looks pretty sound...... 

Who's getting your money?

It's a great and noble thought that this is America and everybody should have the right to be their own boss. The reality is quite the opposite, the vast majority of American's should never be anything other than an employee.


----------



## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

never did I say wing it. I never said work for a year and go out on your own knowing nothing. I don't want the guy with zero experience in the field and only business experience, to me, that means you are going to have major problems trying to estimate a job or even know what you are talking about. I know of too many guys who think they are contractors and yet their tool belt never gets worn and they really depend on who they hire to actually get by and BS their way to customers to get the jobs. They have more callbacks and problems than someone who actually knows what they are doing. 

Did I get lucky? maybe, maybe not. I worked hard. I am proud of what I have accomplished and I'm still learning. that being said, I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't know where I would be today had I just found another contractor and worked for him for the next 10 years. I know I wouldn't own a home in a nice area where the schools are great. I have no issues with working for 5-10 years for someone else as you have stated and then learning the business side of things and going out on your own. My boss knew he wasn't going to make it, he started to help me learn about the estimating part of our business and how long it takes to do many things. I know that I wasn't a total expert when I went out on my own but how many people are 100% at the top of their game when they start a business? 
all of what I'm saying isn't to back up the OP. he's on his own to do whatever he wants. I don't know him from Adam, maybe he's a hack, maybe he's a good guy with some bad luck, no one knows that but him and anyone around him. I'm simply saying that you can work hard, and make it happen without going to school for 4-5 years for business administration only to come out and realize you don't know how to cut trim or swing a hammer. 
I'm not mad at you mike. I just don't like to see people beaten up for making a few mistakes. There is a nice way of saying things and I tend to go in that direction when it comes to matters like this thread.


----------



## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

ApgarNJ said:


> I agree with what you say to a point. all depends how big you want your business to be. I know many business where it's just the owner and a helper or two. and none of them have business degrees like you have. I also know many people with degrees in business that know nothing about being a contractor, they might know the accounting and marketing side of things, but does that make them qualified to actually go out and remodel someone's home? or maybe it makes them qualified to SUB out everything possible and make a % on top of it and never touch a tool, that is what you call a paper contractor. I have more respect for someone who doesn't have a business degree but has worked in the trades long enough and done his homework enough to start his own business and succeed because he will continue to learn and better himself. I have less respect for the guy on the phone all day who couldn't drive a nail into some framing or install a kitchen if a gun was held to his head, but hey, he's got a degree! I guess that means everything. I have learned a lot about running a business over the last 10 years, and I have a college degree but not in business administration or anything related to that. Does that mean I should have just stayed an employee? I live in NJ, there is no way i could have stayed living in one of the richest counties in the country being just an employee for some contractor. My boss died of cancer. I was given a choice and chose to start my own business and no I didn't have 60k saved up to do so. I did it the hard way and my way and have been successful doing so. I rarely advertise and get all my work by word of mouth. I like being a small company with one or two helpers. That doesn't make me less successful than the guy with 20 employees who talks on the phone all day and never touches a tool, I just know that my work is probably of higher quality because I am in control of it first hand, not going back to fix something some bonehead messed up because I left my employees on the job all day and never showed up. you don't need to have a dozen trucks and employees to be successful in business. many guys on this site are one or two man shows and have been doing it a long time. i see nothing wrong with that at all.


I see the point you are trying to make, and, in some ways I agree with it. But in the market here, you need every advantage you can get. And, I will predict that in the future, it will be like this virtually everywhere. 

The thing is, I happen to have a degree in Business. I also have other degrees in Psychology and Physical Education. But none of this adds up to squat if you don't have the trade experience and the training that goes with the trade. 

I worked for an electrician that had an MBA. Big fat freakin deal ! He still went out of business 5 years later. He just could not compete in this oversaturated market. His big ass MBA did nothing for him other than cost 30K to get. 

In some parts of this country, all you need is a GED, some hard work, a few smarts and the advantage of knowing your trade, working the trade and enough brain cells to figure out how to run a business that doesn't loose money. If you are in a family construction business, you have even more opportunities and advantages over someone just starting out cold. 

What I have seen, from starting and running businesses for 40 years, is that the "grace period" of starting out, F----ing up, F---ing up some more, but still pulling out a successful business in the end has shrunk to near Zero. Nowadays, you can screw up just a few times, and, it can be minor things, and then find yourself SOL. 

Just like the guy who started this whole thread.


----------



## Silver02TDI (Mar 29, 2010)

Bottom line is you have a knack for business and *an ability to learn it*. 

I discovered I had the knack and ability to learn when I ran a business at 19. Then I switched my undergrad and the multiple business related degrees followed. I can tell you one thing for certain: A B.Com doesn't teach you anything you really need to know to run a small business. Two business degrees later (B.Com, Masters) and before I started my CMA, I got thrown back into the small business world, and I still had to research everything (forgot what I had learned ten years prior when I was running a small business before I quit to focus on my studies). Universities don't teach you which government agency to go to for what, how to set up a payroll, how to do all your tax accounting, how to actually do your payroll, what grants and govermnent financing programs are available for small business, etc. Degrees are much too high level to teach you those basics. I'm still learning stuff all the time.

So bottom line is: Do you have a sense of what you need to learn? And an ability to know where to look to learn it? Without that sense, you're screwed. The fact that the OP is here asking questions is a good start.

Edit: This is of course all after assuming you've learned your trade


----------

