# "Is that the best you can do?"



## parts (Jan 28, 2009)

I can not tell you how sick I am of hearing this phrase. You work on a bid trying to get everything right and give the people a reasonable price and they hit you with that every time. Part of the blame I put on these remodeling shows that give unrealistic prices and tell the people to push for a better price. I want to ask them if they ask the same at their doctor visits. Mostly I tell them that the price I gave is a very good fair price and that I can not reduce the price. So is it everywhere these days or I just getting lots of cheep customers. Also any suggestions in dealing with them


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

parts said:


> I can not tell you how sick I am of hearing this phrase. You work on a bid trying to get everything right and give the people a reasonable price and they hit you with that every time. Part of the blame I put on these remodeling shows that give unrealistic prices and tell the people to push for a better price. I want to ask them if they ask the same at their doctor visits. Mostly I tell them that the price I gave is a very good fair price and that I can not reduce the price. So is it everywhere these days or I just getting lots of cheep customers. Also any suggestions in dealing with them


Don't get sick over it...tell the HO you can sing and dance also, but it will cost him much more :thumbsup:


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

you could alwasy say " i can do way better, i was thinking of pricing this $5000 higher so i can buy that new ride on lawn mower" its worse for you but better for me

the diy shows are killing the industry right now, all these people watching shows on how to cut costs and how to do things. problem being their being shown the wrong way and told to use the wrong products... give these people 2 years then they'll be calling to get everything they did redone correctly


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Here's a great response for that question.

"No, it's not. That is my entry level price. If you want the best I can do it will be triple."


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

I hear you on that.When I was much younger I had a client that made my life h^ll. Changes, crying, bitching, you name it he did it all. His favorite saying was you can't do anything right. One day I had enough and told him '' I will get this job done the way you want it it done, if it takes every dime you got''. It went very smooth after that.


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## MikeGC (Dec 6, 2008)

I believe there is only one effective way to handle this and still get the sale.

1. Embrace the Aggravation
2. Relieve the Tension
3. Close the Sale

"I am glad you asked. I always give my best price up front to save you and I both the hassle of haggling. Endorse the agreement here where it says customer and we can get you on the schedule"


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## thomasjmarino (May 1, 2011)

I tell ya we get no respect. :no:


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## bp1980 (Jun 24, 2011)

One of the best related quotes I heard goes like this: 

"Rules of construction business:
1. There is always someone cheaper
2. You get what you pay for"

Not sure where I heard this, but if they're really pushing you it's a good one to shoot back at them.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

parts said:


> You work on a bid trying to get everything right and give the people a reasonable price and they hit you with that every time.
> 
> Mostly I tell them that the price I gave is a very good fair price and that I can not reduce the price. So is it everywhere these days or I just getting lots of cheep customers. Also any suggestions in dealing with them


You either

A) Do not negotiate. Your price is your price. You explain why and you live with the results.

B) You negotiate. However you do so following the number 1 rule of negotiation which is never give up anything without getting something in return.

If you're going to negotiate with this person, its an absolute waste of your time if you do so without a commitment. 

When the customer says "is this the best you can do?" you must make them understand that if they want your very best deal, it's only attainable under the understanding that its only available if they are going to act on it right now if the number is agreeable to them, and that's how you commit them.

"is this the best you can do?"

"Well, you know we don't really pad our numbers, however, let me think about this..... (long pause)... well Hank, let me ask you something... if I was able to get to a number that you liked, can I have your business today?"

(Do not utter another word no matter how long it takes for the customer to respond)

If he says anything other then yes, go no further. Tell him thank you for the opportunity and tell him to let you know if you can be of further assistance and wish him well and leave. There is absolutely no reason to negotiate with a customer who isn't willing to commit, you are simply dropping your pants and standing their naked if you do.

If instead he give you a commitment to the purchase, now it's time to get a number from him. DO NOT GIVE him a number. After he commits to purchasing your services from you today if you can reach an agreeable number, you must get his number from him. This is rule number 2.

Simply ask "Well, that's great to hear Hank, you've given me something to think about now. Let me ask you, you know what my number is, and obviously you're hoping to be a little better, and you said you'd do business with me today if we could reach a number that is agreeable to you. So tell me, what were you thinking? (Don't leave out the following - do not ask that question of what is his number and let him vomit out some ridiculous figure $10,000 below yours)

You must say the following - "My number is $22,300.00, what were you thinking, something like $22,200? $22,100?"

(You must establish this right at the start of this negotiation. Whatever number he had in his mind is now waivering, you have now just shocked his brain with this tiny reduction in your number. It does a couple of things, #1 it shocks him out of his huge number, #2 it establishes in his mind that you must have gave him a really good number to start with, since he was figuring he could save 2-3 thousand and you're talking about a couple of hundred!)

After you say that. Do not say another word.

Let him tell you his number. He might really surprise you with a really easy number like $22,000. If he gives you a number you can live with, immediately with no hesitation stick out your hand and leave it in the air and say "Hank, you've got a deal". Don't say a word and don't move your hand until he shakes it.

If he gives you a real low number like $15,000. The next thing to do is ask him to justify the number. 

"You know Hank, I told you why I came it at $22,300 (repeat all your standard value statements) so I'm kind of really confused and shocked, how'd you come up with $15,000?

Let him tell you, he'll tell you something crazy like that's what the other bid is.... that's all he wants to spend...etc... etc...

(Remember you wanted to negotiate, so this is the process. )

Most people will have a hard time actually justifying there number, just the process of them struggling to verbalize it will move them mentally off of it as they hear themselves trying to justify such a huge difference, especially after you have built so much value into your number.

The process goes on and on, it's up to you. You should have a number in your head that you know you can't go below and it's up to you to move the customer to this number. Remember you have a commitment from him to buy if you can agree, now all you have to do is get him to your number.

So when customers ask you if you can do better, you either negotiate or you don't. That's up to you and how you run your business. But if you do negotiate, do not do so without getting the customer to commit to purchasing from you right then, if you can get an agreeable number.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> You either
> 
> A) Do not negotiate. Your price is your price. You explain why and you live with the results.
> 
> ...


Mr. Finely hits it on the head again. This is part of basic sales and negotiation. 

It seems like most contractors ...and amateur business and sales people......think that negotiation is a matter of (a) contractor takes it in the shorts, and, (b) client wins

In the world of professional sales, which is rather structured with trial closes ( as in closing the sale) and actual closes......once you have done your close ( which means in various words and phrases you have asked the client for the sale )................whoever speaks, moves, blinks, twitches or anything else -- has bought whatever it is that is being sold. 

When I was training --- on rare occasion ---sales people, I would tell them that once the intro, presentation, justification, and close has been offered------keep your F----ing mouth shut. Amazingly, most amateurs keep on yapping, making the presentation after the customer has already said yes.


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

As said already. Those damn home improvement shows

I truly believe those shows have done more damage to our industry then the economic depression has. I always get calls telling me they just saw on HGTV they can remodel a whole kitchen for $995 and they want a new kitchen. Sometimes I sarcastically ask if they would like the appliances included for that price. 

Consumers want a bargain today. They know contractors are starving to death and will work real cheap and the ol consumer is trying to take full advantage of the situation.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

Mike Finley said:


> You either
> 
> 
> B) You negotiate. However you do so following the number 1 rule of negotiation which is never give up anything without getting something in return.


EXACTLY! Sure, we can take $1,000 off of the bid but unfortunately you'll have to settle for a $2 per sf tile instead of the $4 per sf in the bid or settle for level 2 granite instead of level 5 that you requested.

Selling the bid IMO is only a third of the sale to me, the other two thirds are selling yourself, your reputation and the prestine finished product there going to receive.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

BrandConst said:


> EXACTLY! Sure, we can take $1,000 off of the bid but unfortunately you'll have to settle for a $2 per sf tile instead of the $4 per sf in the bid or settle for level 2 granite instead of level 5 that you requested.


While I appreciate the enthusiasm, what you're outlining isn't exactly a price negotiation. That's a change to the scope of work. The negotiations I was discussing is removing profit from the job to make the sale.


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## Darwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> You either
> 
> A) Do not negotiate. Your price is your price. You explain why and you live with the results.
> 
> ...


THAT, my friends is awesome -- wrapped in one post. I shall print this out and keep it in my office to read from time to time. Good job.


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

feel, felt, found. classic technique.
"i know how you feel, others have felt that way in the past, but what they found is that the quality materials and workmanship pays for itself in the long run while providing a better experience in the meantime."


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

By the time I'm done with the package the owner is well aware that that's my price. Once he has is he just needs to make a decision, it's very rare I get asked that. 

A lot of this has to do with personality and how you present it. If they do ask I simply say........yes it is.

Mike


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## User78140 (Jun 23, 2011)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> By the time I'm done with the package the owner is well aware that that's my price. Once he has is he just needs to make a decision, it's very rare I get asked that.
> 
> A lot of this has to do with personality and how you present it. If they do ask I simply say........yes it is.
> 
> Mike


This is right, so much of it has to do with how you've presented it prior to giving the price. Most of the time when you hear it at that point it will be just some weak attempt by them to see if you'll go any lower but it doesn't really mean anything.

And you absolutely have to get a commitment prior to giving them any lower price. Mike's advice is spot on in this thread.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I am a firm believer in NEVER negotiating a new price. My policy is, "If I could do the job for that price in the first place, why didn't I quote that price to begin with?" My customers appreciate the honesty. BUT, if I were to renegotiate, (like if I was starving and there was no more beer in the fridge), I would do it like Mike. That was an awesome post.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

I'm not sure it would be constructive but in response I would love if this type of HO got back "What would you say if this Monday you Boss called and said, "What's the cheapest we can get you in here for today?"" :whistling


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## holmesismyhero (Jun 6, 2011)

My usual response is "Do you want to change the job? If so, I can change the price. But to do what you're asking, in the way it should be done, I have quoted you what it would take to do that. If you want to change the scope of the job, I'm sure we can find a way to fit a budget you are comfortable with."

If I think its going to be one of those jobs that price is going to be a big issue, I sometimes lead with "I've quoted with an eye to getting you the best price possible (and then will note a place or two that the pencil was sharpened on, maybe a material available on sale), so I think you'll be happy with both the price, and getting the work done by a quality company". If they hedge at that price, then they aren't a good prospect.


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## fireguy (Oct 29, 2006)

The worst offenders I see for wanting a cheap job are churches and government agencies. When I am told up front that they are only interested in a cheap price, I normally tell them I cannot help them. But,if they want a job that will pass an inspection, by a knowlagable inspector, the first time, I can help them. A real bad sign is when they offer to show the other guys estimate. They will then take your estimate to the other guy and let him beat your estimate.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

LOL, for me it's restaurant owners. Not only are they cheapest but they always take the longest to pay a bill.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

> "Well, you know we don't really pad our numbers, however, let me think about this..... (long pause)... well Hank, let me ask you something... if I was able to get to a number that you liked, can I have your business today?"


Your days in car sales are showing.:laughing:


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> LOL, for me it's restaurant owners. Not only are they cheapest but they always take the longest to pay a bill.


They do the same thing everywhere I guess. Last and final one I did took 60 days to collect the final draw, not only that, I hardly made any $ doing the job which sucks even more.


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## HomeFront (May 14, 2011)

Most of our home repair projects are 1-3 days, so we sometimes end up with holes in our schedule. We'll often do something like the following.

"You know, Bob, we don't pad our prices and have 6 different price drops built in like some of the high-pressure sales places. We quote you a fair price right up front. So there's really not a lot of room in there. And we're pretty booked up for the next couple of weeks, BUT, we do have an odd hole in our schedule on Monday & Tuesday next week, so if we could do your project then and I could give my best guys a full week, then I'd take another $200 off the price."

Gives him an incentive to commit right then.


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## HomeFront (May 14, 2011)

BTW, negotiation is part of business. I'd encourage you to welcome it, not shy away from it. If a customer is talking to you, then you've got an opportunity. It's the ones that have sticker shock but don't want to admit it...they're going to "talk to the wife" or "think about it for awhile"....that you've got no shot at.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

HomeFront said:


> Most of our home repair projects are 1-3 days, so we sometimes end up with holes in our schedule. We'll often do something like the following.
> 
> "You know, Bob, we don't pad our prices and have 6 different price drops built in like some of the high-pressure sales places. We quote you a fair price right up front. So there's really not a lot of room in there. And we're pretty booked up for the next couple of weeks, BUT, we do have an odd hole in our schedule on Monday & Tuesday next week, so if we could do your project then and I could give my best guys a full week, then I'd take another $200 off the price."
> 
> Gives him an incentive to commit right then.


This is why I never negotiate.:laughing:

I can't be dishonest with my customer, it kills my brand. When you give price A) then give price B) that means price A) makes you look dishonest. I bid competitive, competitive means it's competitive.

Seriously, when you tell a customer you have a whole in your schedule that makes up 40% of a standard work week that's not a hole that's a crater. Then your willing to drop $200, what percentage is that because a drop in price comes out of labor, not material......costs remain the same. $200 on a one or two day job??????

I've always believed to stay firm on price because at the very minimum you look professional and honest. When you drop your price not only do you look dishonest but the customer starts to wonder just how much more you would have dropped it and Maybe he could of gotten a better deal, especially when you say "I'll drop the price if you sign up today". What's cheaper about today than tomorrow? If I did this it would kill my reputation.

As far negotiating being part of the deal, it's only part of the deal because certain contractors decide they want to negotiate.

When you negotiate prices drop, they don't go up. It favors the home owner not the contractor.

Mike


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I negotiate upwards.

They soon learn that their efforts are futile.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

I don;t negotiate, except when they ask if we take credit cards. That's around $300 average. I hate saying no because I like the guaranteed payment.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

jmiller said:


> I don;t negotiate, except when they ask if we take credit cards. That's around $300 average. I hate saying no because I like the guaranteed payment.


I'm afraid to comment, your avatar freaks me out too much.:laughing:


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## Redliz75 (Jun 23, 2011)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> This is why I never negotiate.:laughing:
> 
> I can't be dishonest with my customer, it kills my brand. When you give price A) then give price B) that means price A) makes you look dishonest. I bid competitive, competitive means it's competitive.
> 
> ...




I like your way of thinking. I am an employee so I don't have to deal with selling. It really seems unfair to lower your price for someone who haggles. What about your GOOD customers. shouldn't they get a break then too!


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

I don't negotiate.

edit: You'd love captian spaulding mike.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

jmiller said:


> I don't negotiate.
> 
> edit: You'd love captian spaulding mike.


I don't know, I think I liked Otis better.:laughing:


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## mehtwo (Nov 14, 2010)

Mike Finley and Mike's Plumbing show two ways to keep their business profitable. Even though Mike Finley shows allowance in changing his price, it's only very small, like saving .05 on a gallon of fuel. Both Mikes have shown that they are the "top dogs" in the business, by showing the customer that their brand is available at price: THEIR price! They are like the "Starbucks" of contractors! Sure you can get coffee cheaper somewhere else, BUT it ain't Starbucks!:whistling I like the perspectives from both of you, thanks! 


...Oh yeah you guys both have a cool first name, since it's my name too!:laughing:
...and if you are both lefties, that would make you both that much cooler.:thumbsup:


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

I want good coffee (and starbucks aint it), but home improvement is home improvement. How can you 'sell' plumbing?


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## mehtwo (Nov 14, 2010)

jmiller said:


> I want good coffee (and starbucks aint it), but home improvement is home improvement. How can you 'sell' plumbing?


If the customer called a plumber to their house, then they are sold on plumbing, unless they are tire kickers.

Starbucks was used as an example to show that if people want the best, they must pay the price.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

OK, this is not a singles forum. Cool the dating chat.

Back to the regularly scheduled program....


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

angus242 said:


> OK, this is not a singles forum. Cool the dating chat.
> 
> Back to the regularly scheduled program....


It's always good to see when the Colonels back! Give'm hell!


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> While I appreciate the enthusiasm, what you're outlining isn't exactly a price negotiation. That's a change to the scope of work. The negotiations I was discussing is removing profit from the job to make the sale.


Mike, I'm not sure if I'm reading this reply in the right context. Are you advocating removing profit (in certain cases) to make the sale?


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## mehtwo (Nov 14, 2010)

angus242 said:


> OK, this is not a singles forum. Cool the dating chat.
> 
> Back to the regularly scheduled program....


Angus, didn't you mean to post your response to this thread?:blink:


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## mehtwo (Nov 14, 2010)

holmesismyhero said:


> Not sure the gender issue is an issue... "Hot Electric" comes to mind as a marketing slogan, and hey, there are people out there that strongly support alternative occupations.
> But yeah, like you said, there's a hell of a lot more to running a business than most people think, even ones that are intimately involved in the business.
> My father was a journeyman tinbasher for almost 50 years, a union guy to the end. He had the opportunity to go into business with a couple of guys who apprenticed under him, but he wanted to go in at 8:30, come home at 5 and have evening and weekends off. No evening estimates, no weekend paperwork.
> He made a good living wage, raised 6 kids and is enjoying a fairly comfortable retirement.
> ...


 
Which goes to show that self-employment isn't for everyone.:whistling


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> I agree, I see this all the time. Don't you think this deals havoc with your brand though, I'm just saying for the sake of conversation. Lots of customers don't trust contractors anxious think that has a lot to do with why things get negotiated. I've always believed this has a lot to do with my brand; the fact that I don't negotiate, I have a reputation for being firm......at least I think I do because I can't really prove it. Mike


 
Well, first off, do you really have a brand? Are you talking about your reputation with a handful of GCs or the public? Maybe we are talking about two different things. A brand to me means if I stop 10 people on the street and ask them to list compaies that do X, at least a couple of them can name your company. Do you seriously have this?

But as for your question about does negotiating wreak havoc with a brand? 

A brand in a larger market is pretty much established by marketing and advertising. Whether a company negotiates or not really has no effect on a companies brand in any way.

The most obvious example of this is simple to demonstrate. Almost every significant market has a couple of companies that we as insiders to the industry recognize negatively, companies that advertise heavily and do a large amount of business, companies that we say things about such as - man those guys just suck, their quality is so bad, or man, those guys are always ripping people off, I can't believe what that customer paid for that... while we may not think much of them and how they do business, they keep on rolling along like a 10 ton gorilla in the market with lots of consumer dissatisfaction and complaints, yet their prices are way higher, they employ high pressure tactics to get contracts signed, and what they always have in common is they are always advertising.

The steel building industry is notoriously filled with these type of companies like that


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## Calisota (Apr 15, 2011)

The spirit of this argument supports why public perception of the contracting business is what it is:

Confusing to most of the general public.

Company A comes in with the hard-line approach. Company B comes in willing to wheel and deal. 

The comment that somehow company B can be viewed as dishonest, which may be statistically probable, is no more a danger than Company A appearing disinterested or eager to earn peoples business. Either is equally a turn-off. Earn your pay in your own way.

There's a wide spectrum of personality types out there. Some types NEED to haggle, just for haggling sake. Like Mike Finley's example, they may not require much GIVE, but the process of dickering is what puts them in their comfort zone. If that is part of what earns their trust, It's worth investigating what amount that trust may cost. Others hate to barter, want little to do with the whole complex crap, and can appreciate confidence, and hold the higher estimate to complete accountability. God love the latter if they were actually the norm.

I disagree that the Scope of Work is not part of negotiation. Money is not the only chess piece on the table to close a sale. Calling it "changing, or selling a different product or service" is semantic bunk; a linguistic shell game. The more complex a project, the larger the chess board, the more pieces to play with to find a solution to close on. Negotiating at the detail level with a client displays a strong understanding of what it is you're marketing and the thoroughness you and your company represent. 

With specialty trades, I agree there is less to negotiating than need be. But large scale remodels, or large scopes of work, anything applying multiple trades, lack of specific plans and designs etc,; are the ingredients for skillful negotiation. 

Dicker or don't; the only thing you should be concerned about is knowing your numbers. Fit those numbers into a solution for the client. Grasp the opportunity and keep it by finding their solution. Convince them of the solution. Is that negotiating? Did the amount change? Did the scope change? 

Triple yes.

Did my margin change?

No.


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## Redliz75 (Jun 23, 2011)

holmesismyhero said:


> Not sure the gender issue is an issue... "Hot Electric" comes to mind as a marketing slogan, and hey, there are people out there that strongly support alternative occupations.
> 
> But yeah, like you said, there's a hell of a lot more to running a business than most people think, even ones that are intimately involved in the business.
> 
> ...




I think I will stay an employee for the forseeable future. I can't believe how many hoops you gys jump through just to get work. I am also a homeowner. I don't like to work on my own home. I've got a lot more enjoyable things to do on noights and weekends. When I do have work done on my home, I am not interested in having someone cut corners to meet my pricepoint.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Redliz75 said:


> I think I will stay an employee for the forseeable future. I can't believe how many hoops you gys jump through just to get work. I am also a homeowner. I don't like to work on my own home. I've got a lot more enjoyable things to do on noights and weekends. When I do have work done on my home, I am not interested in having someone cut corners to meet my pricepoint.


Not everybody jumps through hoops to get work. Sometimes these threads get long and way over done, that's not quite reality. 

Business is easy, you have a customers than need something and you have businesses that can supply it. Not all customers are the same and when people get into the "hoops" end of it you will find a company that lacks clarity in who they are as a company. Once a company has clarity life becomes easy and smart decisions even easier. Part of the reason I don't haggle is because I separate myself from that customer long before the "haggle" parts comes into play.

Anyhow, business is a lot of fun if you have it figured out and the money is well worth it.

Mike


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