# Employees or subs???



## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

megsbows said:


> *Scheduling and managing the crews*, ordering materials, *supervising the crews*, warranty requests, *safety training and enforcement,* etc.


Kap, these in bold are what I'm talking about when you do these things with subs. They are actually treated like employees.

Jesse is spot on with the rules. Exterior work is notorious for this type of business. Most of their subs don't even have their own company equipment, clothing, trucks, etc.

Like I said in many other posts, when a sub shows up to do a job, he better be wearing his own company logo'd shirt, have his own equipment, and his own lettering on his truck. Not the lettering, logo, and equipment of the GC who hired him. If not, the GC better be paying WC on them and have them in house like an employee.

What I meant about "appointment setting" is pretty much what megsbrows says her job includes.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

MJW,

*"Kap, these in bold are what I'm talking about when you do these things with subs. They are actually treated like employees."*

Unless I am missing something, noone said anything about those except you... 
*
"Like I said in many other posts, when a sub shows up to do a job, he better be wearing his own company logo'd shirt, have his own equipment, and his own lettering on his truck. Not the lettering, logo, and equipment of the GC who hired him."*

As I said multiple times, this has to do with business operation. Noone has said it doesn't. I am referring to the work as spec'd... simple... and that you have 100% control over that just as you would with an employee...

*"What I meant about "appointment setting" is pretty much what megsbrows says her job includes."*

But again, noone has said this... all that is in relation to business operation and has nothing to do with what is spec'd. I don't understand where the communication breakdown is...


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

It baffles me that people want a sub to take work from them by advertising their company on your jobsite.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MJW said:


> :no: That's not legal Bub, just sayin.....
> 
> You tell your electrician how you want the panel wired too?
> 
> If the sub doesn't know his job better than you, then you should be doing it, not them.


So if it's in your contract with the homeowner to install 2 rows of I&W, you HAVE TO inform your sub don't you, or how you want the drip, continious or stepped counter, or ice guard up the walls or not.

Doesn't matter if you cover this in the qualifying, or per job. We subs still get told what to do.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 26, 2011)

MJW said:


> That is correct according to law.
> 
> "Contractors abuse subs, just as much as they think they are helping them.
> 
> A "roofing contractor" using subs is typically breaking the law in most cases. Appointment setting for subs is technically illegal. A sub is responsible for the contracted job from start to finish with their own tools and their own business model.


I think you are a little of base here.
If I hire a sub, I most certainly can give them a completion date and spec what materials I want used.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> I think you are a little of base here.
> If I hire a sub, I most certainly can give them a completion date and spec what materials I want used.


Absolutely.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

A&E Exteriors said:


> It baffles me that people want a sub to take work from them by advertising their company on your jobsite.


Why would anyone want to advertise for another contractor and not their own company?

That attitude is for subs who never want to be any more than just a sub, and it saddens me.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Let me ask this, as a sub, do you set your prices? Do you add in for your own overhead and profits?


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## JesseCocozza (Aug 20, 2011)

KAP said:


> MJW,
> 
> "Kap, these in bold are what I'm talking about when you do these things with subs. They are actually treated like employees."
> 
> ...


The OP was trying to figure out whether he'd hire and employee or sub. Nothing was about specs.


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## JesseCocozza (Aug 20, 2011)

MJW said:


> Let me ask this, as a sub, do you set your prices? Do you add in for your own overhead and profits?


Yes. You bid to the GC. Therefore, you name your price.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MJW said:


> Why would anyone want to advertise for another contractor and not their own company?


This goes back to joes roofing wants freds roofing truck with freds phone number on it, on his jobsite handing walk up referrals freds buisness card. Joe is a fool.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MJW said:


> That attitude is for subs who never want to be any more than just a sub, and it saddens me.


How about subs that had to no choice to sub, "sub or no more paychecks." 
Subs who f'd their credit 12 years ago so they can't be a liscensed contractor, but would excell if they had the proper credit score.

You're right, sad story.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm tired of getting slammed for following the rules. Damned if you do damned if you don't.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

JesseCocozza,

*"The OP was trying to figure out whether he'd hire and employee or sub. Nothing was about specs."*

Point about specs was early on, and was regarding whether you use subs or employees, it is to your specs.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

A&E Exteriors said:


> This goes back to joes roofing wants freds roofing truck with freds phone number on it, on his jobsite handing walk up referrals freds buisness card. Joe is a fool.


In this case Joe is not a roofer and shouldn't be bidding it. He should be a Contractor that doesn't specialize in any trade.

If it was Joe's Construction doing an addition, installing new windows, new roof and new siding. Then that's fine. He can then hire the appropriate subs to do the work, but he is not posing as a roofer. He is being a Construction Contractor.
Joe would be fine with his subs displaying their own name because his subs are top quality working for him. His customers should be happy having a quality sub contractor on the job.

There is no way I would put any other companies name on my truck. I would hope any subs I use would have the same self respect.

We sub out our gutters. This guy's truck and trailer has more lettering than anything we have and it has HIS name on it. Our customers are happy to see that our gutter guy is a full time gutter guy making his own living. I would feel kinda funny having my company name on his truck and trailer.
I don't tell him how to hang his gutters either, and never tell him to be there at any specific time. I ask if it's possible within a time frame, but he is not my employee.


The way some companies use subs, a person could start any business and not have a clue about the industry at all. "Just sub it!"


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MJW said:


> In this case Joe is not a roofer and shouldn't be bidding it. He should be a Contractor that doesn't specialize in any trade.
> 
> "


Who said Joe is not a roofer working on a roof across town with his crew?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I completely agree with MJW. If you are a roofing contractor, you should be selling jobs for your own employees to install. If you are a general contractor, you should be selling jobs for your roofing subcontractors.

If you are a roofing company and you get behind, you should tell your customers they can either A) Wait or B) You can put a subcontractor on the job.

For any sub to not have enough pride to keep a different companies name of their truck seems sort of absurd.

Let's take roofing for example. I hire you to sub contract a roof from me. Here is what I cannot do:
I cannot tell you what time to start and end your day.
I cannot tell you to wear my company shirt or put my magnet on your truck
I cannot let you use my tools.
I cannot supervise and correct things all day.

What I can do is:
Give you a time for the project.
Provide the materials to be installed.
Check for proper installation.
Call you back if something is not right.

Regarding my gutter subs, I tell homeowners that I subcontract my gutters. I tell them the truth and that is that they are quicker and better because it is ALL they do. Their two big box trucks are fully lettered.

The problem is you guys are talking about someone selling themselves just to have someone else show up. It is like me selling my company and my certifications just to have joe blows subcontracted roofing show up but never let the homeowner know because you made joe blow put on your t-shirts and letters on his truck.

On the other hand, if I sold myself and let the homeowner know I use subs and they will be showing up, they won't like that because they know nothing about them. If that is the case, why don't they go to the subcontractor right away and cut you out of the deal?


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## RadRemod (Oct 29, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> On the other hand, if I sold myself and let the homeowner know I use subs and they will be showing up, they won't like that because they know nothing about them. If that is the case, why don't they go to the subcontractor right away and cut you out of the deal?


I do this with my roofing subs all the time. I tell the customers I have a good crew for the roof that I use all the time. I let the customer know that I have used these guys many times and about the quality and warranty. I don't flat out tell them who it is so they don't try to go around me but would if push came to shove. If they have a problem with this I let them know that I've done many roofs with this sub and he knows me and my excellent payment history so he cuts me a better deal then he would John Doe. Granted I'm a GC remodelor not a roofer so I don't get calls just for roofing. Normally its a customer or referal asking me about it. If I were a roofing co using subs that might be a little stickier situation.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

In your case, it makes perfect sense and that is what your customer expected when they called you.


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## RadRemod (Oct 29, 2009)

232323 said:


> If you get fairly backed up with roofing jobs, do you guys just rely on your hourly employees or do you recruit subs? With workers comp rates exceeding 40%, it almost becomes cost prohibitive with your hourly employees, but finding legitimate subs can also be a big problem. A good problem to have, but none the less a problem. I would appreciate any comments.


If you can find subs that you trust and can get at a price you can make enough money than why not? But remember if you collect the $$ from the customer its ultimatly your name on the job not your subs. If it leaks in a couple years the customer will be calling you not your sub and they may not still be around. Making the repair come out of your pocket. :sad:


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## RadRemod (Oct 29, 2009)

And if you can find a quality sub you may go talk to the customer. Let them know you have gotten very busy and give them the option of waiting for your crew to personally do it or having your backup/ overflow crew do it. Reminding them that the pricing you gave will remain the same and your warranty will still apply. My guess is most wouldn't care:thumbup:


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MJW said:


> Why would anyone want to advertise for another contractor and not their own company?.


Perhaps they are legally bound from doing jobs for homeowners that total over $600.00 material and labor, and get a piece of the action from a generated lead.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Perhaps they are legally bound from doing jobs for homeowners that total over $600.00 material and labor, and get a piece of the action from a generated lead.


I don't get it.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I don't get it.


In Michigan you must be liscensed to do a home repair totaling over $600.00 materials and labor combined directly for the homeowner.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> In Michigan you must be liscensed to do a home repair totaling over $600.00 materials and labor combined directly for the homeowner.


But you don't need a license to start a company and get a federal id number and all that?


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> But you don't need a license to start a company and get a federal id number and all that?


Not a contractors liscense, technically, I can do all the commercial I want as well.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

All it takes here is a dba/ llc and a general liability policy.


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