# repairing copper underground



## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

had a call last night from a homeowner jackhammering up their basement to save $$ from me having to do it.....they hit their well water supply...looks like they didnt save any $ after all.

i dont think you can solder fittings underground...i thought it needed to be braised...

how would you handle a broken copper pipe underground?

braise? 
sharkbites(i think they are underground legal)?
compression coupling?

i told him to call someone else...he called Friday night.....i bet he will end up paying $1,000 for someone to come fix it on the weekend.....if he can find someone to do it


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Braising is stronger, but why can't you solder?


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

jb4211 said:


> Braising is stronger, but why can't you solder?


i didnt think it was legal to solder underground

99% sure


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

If this is a water line from the main to the house, I would only use crimped or pressed connections... I know they harder to come by and more expensive, but repair is permanent, you forget about it.

Good luck


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

Braze is code. 

Soft solder, no. 

Flared is also code. 

He could legally shark bite it. I wouldn't.


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## m1911 (Feb 24, 2009)

huggytree said:


> had a call last night from a homeowner jackhammering up their basement to save $$ from me having to do it.....they hit their well water supply...looks like they didnt save any $ after all.
> 
> i dont think you can solder fittings underground...i thought it needed to be braised...
> 
> ...


WTF is "braise" "braised" or "braising"? :blink:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

m1911 said:


> WTF is "braise" "braised" or "braising"? :blink:


Silver solder, high heat.


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## m1911 (Feb 24, 2009)

superseal said:


> silver solder, high heat.


you "braze" metal , and you "braise" meat.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

check that silver braze - I think they use silver:001_unsure:


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

rex said:


> Braze is code.
> 
> Soft solder, no.
> 
> ...


I agree with the above. I don't even use shark bite or compression above ground.


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## TimberlineMD (Jan 15, 2008)

Silver (15%) solder is the way to go.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

I never had a solder joint fail.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

I would think a flared compression is the proper way. All the water lines from the main, to the valve box, to the house is compression by me.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Flared - done correctly - is an incredible connection. Now, find me someone under 50 who can do one correctly.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

jb4211 said:


> Flared - done correctly - is an incredible connection. Now, find me someone under 50 who can do one correctly.


I can do it all day long and I've got a few years before I hit fifty.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Are you volunteering?


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

i dont know how to braise or flare

i was pretty sure a sharkbite is code, but id never trust it underground

im glad i passed on the job....i didnt want to do it and work this weekend anyways....let the cheap homeowner pay more to repair his F up then he would have paid me to bust his floor.....

he need some cast iron repiped under the floor....we will see if he calls me to fix it or if the copper repair guy does it for him


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Ford Meter Box sells some great mechanical fittings that took the place of flared because that is a dying trade. I'm not saying there aren't some guys who know how to do a proper flared connection. There are. But, the art of making those connections is doing with them.

Compression is faster and easily taught compared to flare.

Ford compressions use a standard beveled gasket to seal the fitting and then ribbed copper to grab the pipe and prevent separation.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

What's weirded is soldered is allowed almost everywhere else's in the world under ground. 

I wouldn't trust a sharkbite underground, I also wouldn't trust a compression fitting no matter if it was a brass or cooper olive. 

I would trust a flare but there's no need to even use a flare fitting. 

I have taken soldered joints to over 15bar hundreds of times and never seen a failure. not sure how sharkbites would be allowed and soldered not. This is just proof hat some codes are pathetic and baseless.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

I think a lot of code is changed by lobbyist vying for their new product to be the only product permissible. That doesn't mean it's the best. Just the only product permitted.

If it was MY house, I'd solder it and be done.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

jb4211 said:


> Are you volunteering?


Can you afford me?


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

"I" - don't need you. "I" am not the OP.
And, how do I know if I could afford you if I don't know what you charge? But, either way, it's a mute point with me, because I don't have the issue.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm in my 20's and can flare pipe.


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

huggytree said:


> i dont know how to braise or flare


 Your a plumber and don't know how . Seems basic plumbing skills during coarse of training ( schooling ) and I'm no license plumber .


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm not saying those of you who say you can flare, can't.

But I've personally met a lot of guys that "think" they know how to flare but don't.

Making a proper flared connection is an art. Not the type of thing you can learn from a You Tube video.

Those of you that can, great.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

skillman said:


> Your a plumber and don't know how . Seems basic plumbing skills during coarse of training ( schooling ) and I'm no license plumber .


I'm know a lot of plumbers that don't know how to flare. Real licensed, master plumbers too. They may know the concept. They may have been taught at one time. But they don't make flared connections regularly so, they say they don't to avoid failure. A man needs to know his limitations.

Just my opinion.

Also, compression fittings are quicker and have come a long way so the need for flared connections is reduced.


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## m1911 (Feb 24, 2009)

I'm not a plumber, yet I sweat copper neater and cleaner than 99 percent of the so called pro plumbers I've seen around he. I've yet to see a plumber deburr the cut pipe, let alone wipe clean the joints.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

skillman said:


> Your a plumber and don't know how . Seems basic plumbing skills during coarse of training ( schooling )  and I'm no license plumber .


braising is more commercial...im residential....other than 2 welding classes none of my other classes were hands on.....

ive needed to flare a gas joint once ever!...i hired someone else to do it for me

im a master plumber, union trained......the union has more schooling than the non-union......its not a training thing.....its an experience thing....no need for either joint on residential 99.999% of the time....i dont know lead joints either


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

jb4211 said:


> Flared - done correctly - is an incredible connection. Now, find me someone under 50 who can do one correctly.


Flaring is used all the time in refrigeration, I think I flared my first copper pipe for my father at the age of 6. 



huggytree said:


> i dont know how to braise or flare
> 
> i was pretty sure a sharkbite is code, but id never trust it underground
> 
> ...


Cut the bullsh!t, I hate hearing someone make up excuses for when they don't have to tools or the skillset to get the job done and come up with BS reasons like "I didn't want the work anyway"

This is a sign that you should but a flaring tool and keep some fittings on hand. My 2-bit fat wire jockey ass could have done the repair and collected the cheque and still gotten home in time for dinner.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

even in refrigeration, I thought that was 100% brazing


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

jb4211 said:


> even in refrigeration, I thought that was 100% brazing


Swage n braze or flare. Copper gas lines are flare.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Flare the mf. It's not that difficult. Practice a couple of times above ground, and proceed. I can't believe many plumbers don't have a flaring tool in their rig.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

flashheatingand said:


> Flare the mf. It's not that difficult. Practice a couple of times above ground, and proceed. I can't believe many plumbers don't have a flaring tool in their rig.


I have had one the last 10+ years yet have used it about 5x lol


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

huggytree said:


> had a call last night from a homeowner jackhammering up their basement to save $$ from me having to do it.....they hit their well water supply...looks like they didnt save any $ after all.
> 
> i dont think you can solder fittings underground...i thought it needed to be braised...
> 
> ...


I don't know, you can't blame a fella for trying to save a few $. The guy needed your help, and you turned your back. It's not a good look. 

We do service ___. Unfortunately, things seem to have a tendency to happen close to closing time. Sometimes we have to take on jobs just to save face. In the future, get a flaring tool, practice a couple of times, so that you will look like a superstar the next time something like this arises.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

flashheatingand said:


> I don't know, you can't blame a fella for trying to save a few $. The guy needed your help, and you turned your back. It's not a good look.
> 
> We do service ___. Unfortunately, things seem to have a tendency to happen close to closing time. Sometimes we have to take on jobs just to save face. In the future, get a flaring tool, practice a couple of times, so that you will look like a superstar the next time something like this arises.


And instead of wasting the time of both parties, make f'n bank.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

This is what I have used if I needed to flare exterior underground 3/4" copper. 

http://www.amazon.com/Reed-Copper-Pipe-Hammer-Flaring/dp/B001H4M0BU


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

overanalyze said:


> This is what I have used if I needed to flare exterior underground 3/4" copper.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Reed-Copper-Pipe-Hammer-Flaring/dp/B001H4M0BU


Yep, water service tubing uses a hammer flaring tool, it's a good idea to keep a rerounding tool around as well, and make damn sure you flare it evenly.


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## HUI (Jan 21, 2011)

Flaring isn't too hard with the reed tools. But why not use compression and be done with it? We use compression anytime we put water main together. I'm a utility contractor and we don't use anything but compression, for corp stops, curb stops, etc. I test them to 150 psi and not ever any problems. And you can fix broken lines live.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

HUI said:


> Flaring isn't too hard with the reed tools. But why not use compression and be done with it? We use compression anytime we put water main together. I'm a utility contractor and we don't use anything but compression, for corp stops, curb stops, etc. I test them to 150 psi and not ever any problems. And you can fix broken lines live.


Code here only allows those if you are transitioning from lead to copper, and they would prefer that it be compression on the lead side only, with the copper side being flared, but that can be a difficult fitting to track down sometimes.


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## HUI (Jan 21, 2011)

Interesting if anyone sees a flare around here they are normally removed and a compression installed. That is for underground anyways. We are also using a lot of cts HDPE. Where you will use a stainless stiffener then the compression fitting on that. Copper is starting to go by the wayside in many of the local municipalities especially anything larger than 1".


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

HUI said:


> Interesting if anyone sees a flare around here they are normally removed and a compression installed. That is for underground anyways. We are also using a lot of cts HDPE. Where you will use a stainless stiffener then the compression fitting on that. Copper is starting to go by the wayside in many of the local municipalities especially anything larger than 1".


It was the mid 1980's that Chicago stopped using lead for water services and switched to copper up to 2", and ductile for anything larger than that, things change around here at a very slow pace, we still use clay sewers.

Wiping joints on lead services is becoming a lost art, I can count on one hand the number of people I know who can do them and still have the tools for it.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> It was the mid 1980's that Chicago stopped using lead for water services and switched to copper up to 2", and ductile for anything larger than that, things change around here at a very slow pace, we still use clay sewers.
> 
> Wiping joints on lead services is becoming a lost art, I can count on one hand the number of people I know who can do them and still have the tools for it.


They still install clay sewers?


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> It was the mid 1980's that Chicago stopped using lead for water services and switched to copper up to 2", and ductile for anything larger than that, things change around here at a very slow pace, we still use clay sewers.
> 
> Wiping joints on lead services is becoming a lost art, I can count on one hand the number of people I know who can do them and still have the tools for it.


I'm sure someone will chime-in shortly saying how great they are at, they do it all the time, have the best tools, etc., etc


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

jb4211 said:


> I'm know a lot of plumbers that don't know how to flare. Real licensed, master plumbers too. They may know the concept. They may have been taught at one time. But they don't make flared connections regularly so, they say they don't to avoid failure. A man needs to know his limitations.


I honestly have a hard time grasping this. I taught myself to flare gas lines 30-odd years ago and still do the odd gas or water line every blue moon or so. Never had a problem with it.

It actually seems easier to screw up a sweat joint.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> I honestly have a hard time grasping this. I taught myself to flare gas lines 30-odd years ago and still do the odd gas or water line every blue moon or so. Never had a problem with it.
> 
> It actually seems easier to screw up a sweat joint.


Agreed, I'd bet there are a lot more ring solder joints that fail over time than botched flare connections.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Tin, you're in my area, Pa? Right?

Inner, I believe you're in NY.

Maybe, it's just the people I associate with, but I know a fair amount of plumbers and none flare copper. 

I worked for a water meter distributor for a long time. Would speak to plumbers regularly. We actually scrapped a ton of flare fittings because no one would buy them. Everyone was buying compression, pack-joints, etc.


Pex or cpvc seems standard in most cases.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

jb4211 said:


> Tin, you're in my area, Pa? Right?
> 
> Inner, I believe you're in NY.
> 
> ...


I'm in Ontario.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Ok. As you were soldier. lo
I don't know why I thought you were closer.

You're up there with Big Mike. lol


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

jb4211 said:


> I'm sure someone will chime-in shortly saying how great they are at, they do it all the time, have the best tools, etc., etc


I doubt any tool company has made any effort to improve on a shave hook or a turnpin in the last few decades, I had a problem finding a candle the last time I needed to wipe a joint, good thing I saved my cloth.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Somebody help pick up that cat's name droppings


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