# 203K and nightmare customers



## SolidHomes (Jul 3, 2014)

My goodness, you don't have to scream. If you'll read my previous post, I thought I made it clear that allowances are not addressed on the contract because we weren't going to operate with allowances. This sounds like typical procedure for 203k by a previous poster saying they are not allowed to make any changes once the contract is signed.

I never said the total contract was $100,000. I said $100,000 worth of receipts. Some of the work was subbed out. I don't count those invoices as a "receipt". They are wanting receipts from Lowe's and the local lumber yard, etc. That also doesn't include labor, overhead, etc. Don't jump to conclusions.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

RuhRoh Elwood


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Shellbuilder said:


> What the ****/heck does the operative contract say about allowances LOL, it will never be answered


 
Shell....

Yes sadly.... I'm a little naive and a "newby"(1)... (but I am polite and use stars)...



(footnote: Newby to not reading my contract)


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

I give the ruhroh about no allowances and subs not being counted in receipts,,,RUHROH


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

SolidHomes said:


> My goodness, you don't have to scream. If you'll read my previous post, I thought I made it clear that allowances are not addressed on the contract because we weren't going to operate with allowances. This sounds like typical procedure for 203k by a previous poster saying they are not allowed to make any changes once the contract is signed.
> 
> I never said the total contract was $100,000. I said $100,000 worth of receipts. Some of the work was subbed out. I don't count those invoices as a "receipt". They are wanting receipts from Lowe's and the local lumber yard, etc. That also doesn't include labor, overhead, etc. Don't jump to conclusions.


I ddint jump to conclusions, maam. I was stating I didnt see a 3500 sq ft remodel happening for 100k. 

I w9uldnt give fhem the reciepts. Threaten to lein and move on.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Jaws said:


> I ddint jump to conclusions, maam. I was stating I didnt see a 3500 sq ft remodel happening for 100k.
> 
> I w9uldnt give fhem the reciepts. Threaten to lein and move on.


It would help to know if the products were specified and why the owner is looking for receipts. you know, kinda like allowances or when you go picking stuff for folks without asking'


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## SolidHomes (Jul 3, 2014)

Shellbuilder...We DO count invoices as receipts...they are not asking for those. Open your eyes and read what is written...quit reading things that are not there!


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

SolidHomes said:


> Shellbuilder...We DO count invoices as receipts...they are not asking for those. Open your eyes and read what is written...quit reading things that are not there!


Everyone here would like to see your contract, you can be helped.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

If you didn't use allowance then how did you spec fixtures, tile, floors, appliances, etc. You know, all the things your customer is looking for receipts


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Makes sense to me. And I don't even do this work. The client thinks they have allowances when they do not. Hoping to scam the system, or make a buck, they use their spare time to price shop at lowes. They realize things are cheaper than what they are paying. So they feel cheated by the contractor, and try to renegotiate the amount of the contract.

The OP has said multiple times, there are no allowances specced out in the contract. They did specify all part numbers, etc... which only made it easier for the homeowners to google it and do comparitive price shopping. 

How would you feel about paying $2500 for a $2000 fridge?

Couple that with a retarded inspector (and we all KNOW they exist), and this snowball just keeps getting bigger.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Driftweed said:


> Makes sense to me. And I don't even do this work. The client thinks they have allowances when they do not. Hoping to scam the system, or make a buck, they use their spare time to price shop at lowes. They realize things are cheaper than what they are paying. So they feel cheated by the contractor, and try to renegotiate the amount of the contract.
> 
> *The OP has said multiple times, there are no allowances specced out in the contract. They did specify all part numbers, etc... which only made it easier for the homeowners to google it and do comparitive price shopping. *
> How would you feel about paying $2500 for a $2000 fridge?
> ...


Drift.... In all honesty, could you site those posts. I never saw them, and just rescanned them..... I really can't find them....

I will apologize to the OP if what you say is true.

Best


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## SolidHomes (Jul 3, 2014)

The contract is a standard 203k contract. It can easily be googled.

Driftweed seems to be the only one who understands. lol 

I do want to say our current inspector is not bad...though I do think he's telling the homeowner one thing and us another. Which is why we don't trust that he actually WILL sign off on the full amount of the loan at the end. The original inspector had no idea what was going on. He was older and just not educated on the whole process. There were many things he was supposed to do/tell us/give us that were never followed through with until the 2nd inspector came in. He really has tried to straighten this all out.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

SolidHomes said:


> My goodness, you don't have to scream. *If you'll read my previous post, I thought I made it clear that allowances are not addressed on the contract *because we weren't going to operate with allowances. This sounds like typical procedure for 203k by a previous poster saying they are not allowed to make any changes once the contract is signed.
> 
> .


Solid...... I will apologize for screaming*....(1)* if you will cite where you stated that allowances are not addressed on the contract/or regs of 203K......(as bolded in your above statement)

and (2) can we then be assured that your contract spected out each item and the customer had no choice in selection.

I'm sorry, but I can't find your clear statement... and I am having trouble believing you.

Just copy your previous disclosure, and shout it back at me.:whistling

I do not mind being wrong.... I dislike remaining wrong.

Best


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Drift.... In all honesty, could you site those posts. I never saw them, and just rescanned them..... I really can't find them....
> 
> I will apologize to the OP if what you say is true.
> 
> Best


Lets start with the opening post:

They went to Lowe's last night with the bid in hand (an itemized bid was required, so they know exactly what was budgeted for everything) looking for anything and everything that might be under budget. They even have a spreadsheet of everything they've "saved" on.

need more?


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Driftweed said:


> Makes sense to me. And I don't even do this work. The client thinks they have allowances when they do not. Hoping to scam the system, or make a buck, they use their spare time to price shop at lowes. They realize things are cheaper than what they are paying. So they feel cheated by the contractor, and try to renegotiate the amount of the contract.
> 
> The OP has said multiple times, there are no allowances specced out in the contract. They did specify all part numbers, etc... which only made it easier for the homeowners to google it and do comparitive price shopping.
> 
> ...


Drift..... Your senario may be correct.... but I never saw the OP say multiple times that the conhtract had no allowances and everything was spected out.... I would love to know where I missed it as I have previously asked.

In regard to the bold above: I would feel like I signed a contract to buy a refrigerator model#xyz installed in my home, along with many other terms of performance, for $2500.

*If your senario is correct, I don't see an issue*.... Tell their client to read their contract, and tell the Hud and mortgage broker that advised them allowance savings were to be credited to go to hell and learn their business.

I am not sure your senario is correct though.

Best

Peter


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Driftweed said:


> Lets start with the opening post:
> 
> They went to Lowe's last night with the bid in hand (an itemized bid was required, so they know exactly what was budgeted for everything) looking for anything and everything that might be under budget. They even have a spreadsheet of everything they've "saved" on.
> 
> need more?


So what.... I don't even know what "budgeted" in a contract means... is that an estimate, allowance, or firm price commitment upon which the customer has contracted.

That tells me what two customers did. Nowhere have I found somewhere what the contract/203regs state in regard to "budgeted items". Are they allowances, or firm price contractural commitments.


Furthermore, nowhere has the OP stated simply and clearly that all items were spected out. Somehow, the HVAC was not speced out and the the customer went out and bought his own. Did the customers not chooze anything.

If it is "budgeted" in a 203K, what does the contract say abount underages and overages.

WHAT DOES THE CONTRACT SAY.... not what the customer did, or what the builder thought.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Lotsa interpreting in this thread. In all honesty, we may never have 100% proof. I would say stop work, go to arbitration or just liens and sue. Too much headache. There's pride in not leaving a job unfinished, then there is stupidity for hemorrhaging money because of said pride.

If you have other paying clients, walk away from this one and go to the next. You got lawyers involved now, so cut the bullshart and go back to work either for this client or the next. 

Never let a job own you. 

These people are not your friends, will never refer you, and neither will anyone else involved. So why hang around?


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

I think when she say "budgeted" she means that what she specc'ed out. In other words I "budgeted" $2500 for a fridge and put that in the line item. Then they went out with model number in hand, and found the same model for $2000. Thereby beating my "budget" and expected me to adjust my bid accordingly. 

I'm just using a fridge for an example.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

SolidHomes said:


> My goodness, you don't have to scream. If you'll read my previous post, I thought I made it clear that allowances are not addressed on the contract because we weren't going to operate with allowances. * This sounds like typical procedure for 203k by a previous poster saying they are not allowed to make any changes once the contract is signed.*
> .



Solid... Just for a point, I do not believe the above referenced poster's statement as a generality of the 203K program. (Maybe their own construction contract)

Preliminary googling, I find reference to change orders being cumberson if the contractor and owner want those changes financed by the FHA lender.

Those change orders have to be signed by the owner/contractor/FHAconsultant/FHAlender.

Furthermore, it is impossible to believe ANY contractor or owner could undertake a 3500 ft gut, with the expectation that there would not be a change order. Think it out. Did you have NO change orders.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

I believe the issue is this. Solid provided a breakdown to HUD that was general information. Solid entered in to a contract without utilizing an allowance sheet and now owner is reverting back to general costs breakdown as HUD wanted. Contractors write contracts, carpenters drive nails, plumbers plumb stuff, if you want to be a contractor, learn to write contracts. Ask any judge!


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Shellbuilder said:


> I believe the issue is this. Solid provided a breakdown to HUD that was general information. Solid entered in to a contract without utilizing an allowance sheet and now owner is reverting back to general costs breakdown as HUD wanted. Contractors write contracts, carpenters drive nails, plumbers plumb stuff*, if you want to be a contractor, learn to write contracts.* Ask any judge!


 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++YES

And if you can't write a contract.... at least learn to read one.

But Shell.... in this case involving a 203 program and FHA lender, I can not believe there is not an operative contract section answering the OP's question.

I think they don't want to face up to it, or don't understand it.

(I think we have just been "Queened for a Day" (for you mature) or "Dr Philed" (for you younger).

Best


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## mikec (Jan 2, 2007)

Ok, I read a lot of this, and most of you are nuts.
First off let me start by saying I have done 16 203k projects. 10 of these were major remodels well over 100k.
She has stated that:
1) there were no allowances! They had fixed prices for everything.

2) They applied a markup to fixtures ect.

3) The client found the same materials cheaper than the price they agreed to purchase them from the op for.

4) Now the client wants the op to kick back her mark up on these.

The client is in violation of the home owner/ contractor agreement(standard 203k contract).
The client is in violation of their agreement with their lender.
Change orders can happen on a 203k ( HUD has a form). If you, the client and the consultant didn't sign one. No change, to the original spec sheet.
Not relevant here but every 203k I ever did the client had to borrow 10% contingency for unforseens. ( most end up using this for upgrades in the end, once the structural work is done, and they know the sill plates aren't rotted out or something).

So. The client owes you every dime of the original cost. And it may take a little time, but if the consultant signs off, the bank will pay you.

As far as conceding 2%. ***** that.

Next time do not break it out so far.
I never do. I say framing is $x, electrical is $x.
The number of draws depends on the size if the job. After the rough electrical , say, the consultant will sign off on a percentage of the electrical portion being released. They usually ask me " what percentage if this is done?" 
It is all very clear. The bank and the consultant understand it, sounds like the HO doesn't.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Sounds like Mike has it cleared up for you, Solid. Go get your money :thumbsup:


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

mikec said:


> Ok, I read a lot of this, and most of you are nuts.(And I think you are wrong on many points... however, you may be right overall, or not)
> First off let me start by saying I have done 16 203k projects. 10 of these were major remodels well over 100k.Then you should know these things
> She has stated thatShe maybe/sorta implied these very questionable facts, with contradictions and non- answers,and has no reference to her contract. If this is true, what the hell is her problem. You said the bank is going to pay her... and you are the expert)
> 1) there were no allowances! They had fixed prices for everything.(Questionable... no reference to contract
> ...


I question why you would call ME/OTHERS nuts.......at least in regard to your logic and argument

Although you did not state directly,I assume 203K allows allowance provisions and are you not reluctant (I am) to think anyone can spec out a 3500 foot gut without using some type of allowance system... but maybe a buyer would/could do it????


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

From the contractor owner agreement form. There is no area on this agreement that says to provide budget costs. Attachment sheets are allowed and that is where the allowances are written. The owner/contractor agreement form is just a very broad agreement.Tyere is no way any contractor could expect any reasonable understanding of the job except the plan attachments ......*The contractor will provide shop drawings, samples, product data or other information provided for in this Agreement, where necessary. ....*https://www.cpmmortgageservices.com/uploads/Homeowner Contractor Agreement.pdf What I want to see is your attachment sheets


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Sounds like Mike has it cleared up for you, Solid. Go get your money :thumbsup:


Jaws.... Maybe....

( I have thought of the senario that the OP is just mixed up in regard to her contract which is a firm fixed price (and which the 203K spec sheet just estimated/delineated costs for evaluation of reasonableness for the FHA Lender. Then the customer did over order on their own a HVAC unit, but without sign off by the consultant and bank, thus the $2500 overage is not financed. So maybe the customer is smart, and is just bringing up frivolous credit claims, in hopes of negotiating away their personal, non-financed HVAC debt.)

But, that senario is not consistant with either the consultant and mortgage lender sayiing the allowance savings were to be credited (OP's begining explanation), nor with the OP not/refusing/overlooking numerous requests by me (AND YOU) as to what her contract provides.

All I know is that this sounds very fishy to me, I doubt we will ever know the rest of the story....Paul Harvey is dead.

But I agree with you, if Mike is factually correct.... what the hell is the problem. Tell the customer to pound sand, and cash the check.

Or maybe, the OP has entered a krap contract in regard to all of this.

Best


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

sounds to me like MTN has just a little too much space in between his own jobs/contracts


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Shellbuilder said:


> From the contractor owner agreement form. There is no area on this agreement that says to provide budget costs. Attachment sheets are allowed and that is where the allowances are written. The owner/contractor agreement form is just a very broad agreement.Tyere is no way any contractor could expect any reasonable understanding of the job except the plan attachments ......*The contractor will provide shop drawings, samples, product data or other information provided for in this Agreement, where necessary. ....*https://www.cpmmortgageservices.com/uploads/Homeowner%20Contractor%20Agreement.pdf What I want to see is your attachment sheets


*Thanks Shell*.... I don't think you are nuts...I think you and a few others are the only ones that are not.

The agreement you referred to sounds/ must be the same internet display, provided by FHA 203 site, that I read.... but Mike asserts the customer is in violation of that.

(I would love to see those sheets also.... and I am confused as to whether a standard remodel contract is additionally attached, (subject of course to bank/financing approval.)

(Maybe those "sheets" are a detailed contract, or maybe just estimates/budget lines for the lender/FHA to check the reasonableness of costs that they will be financing.)

I know nothing about 203K, but I do know contracts... and there must be one somewhere for a govy backed loan.

Best

Peter

EDIT PS: Yes... Your reference to that agreement is EXACTLY the same one I found.... different format on two pages using columns, but exactly the same... my format was 3 pages which I think I referred to in a previous reference.)


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

parkers5150 said:


> sounds to me like MTN has just a little too much space in between his own jobs/contracts


He's semi retired I believe.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

And get this Shell..... I THINK that contractors have to be qualled to do 203K FHA work.

At least in this example, I guess my Black Lab could pass that qual.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Like I said I have done more than 20, maybe way more 203 loan deals. I had salespeople who closed these so I really just ran production and worked with my sales guys to write our contracts. So the answer is yes, you attach your own documents, FHAs contract is just to keep you in line with their wants that would normally not be in your regular contractual agreements. BTW, these are unattractive loans and the free market construction perms are much cheaper interest rates.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

This seems like a lot of headache. If the contract doesn't stipulate an actual cost incurred audit at the end or a shared savings provision, tell them to pound sand. Bill them and start adding interest. 

Life's too short to deal with idiots.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

parkers5150 said:


> sounds to me like MTN has just a little too much space in between his own jobs/contracts





Jaws said:


> He's semi retired I believe.


Park.... Yes, I've been pretty lucky.... don't have a home going now... don't think I'll every quit working... love it... as heavy a belt as I can still wear, ...addicted to it...

And I honestly do love learning, never seen a 203K, just having fun pursueing/learning it.

Plus ... 3 way-switch wiring is getting boring:laughing:

Best

Peter


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Shellbuilder said:


> Like I said I have done more than 20, maybe way more 203 loan deals. I had salespeople who closed these so I really just ran production and worked with my sales guys to write our contracts. So the answer is yes, you attach your own documents, FHAs contract is just to keep you in line with their wants that would normally not be in your regular contractual agreements. BTW, these are unattractive loans and the free market construction perms are much cheaper interest rates.


Yes... Your comments make very good sense/understanding to me....Thank You


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

SolidHomes said:


> Who wants to wade through nearly $100,000 worth of receipts at the very end of the project? I don't even want to organize them for tax time!! lol


people have been way to nice to you here

you should have a spread sheet with every receipt invoice and hour worked on the job itemized, the spread sheet should be started at the beginning of the job and updated weekly. 

if your invoices/hrs are not itemized then how do you know if your actually making any money???? how do you know where the money actually is? It sounds like you took in a bunch of money and pissed it all away and now your scrambling, the first time you get a big job its pretty cool to get cut a 20k or 35k check, but that money is not yours and needs to be respected I don't think your respecting the money 

as mentioned before there are three sides to every story, your side, their side and the truth

I remodeled a remodel disaster a couple years ago. In order to get my last check the customer wanted to see my spreadsheets, I don't remember why, but I agreed to it, in the contract on day one, mostly cause I felt bad they were doing the project twice maybe? the job was T&M 

my spread sheet break downs for bids and for the duration of the job money in and money out are top secrete since they are the answer to my success side tracked

the woman I was dealing with was a piece of work, her poor husbands balls were in her purse and it was disturbing, I showed her the receipt break downs, all the money in and out, I was paid, I broke even on the job, paid every sub paid my hours, covered a small % of my overhead and I LEARNED A VERY VALUABLE LESSON, A MISTAKE I WILL NEVER MAKE AGAIN AND I MOVED ON


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

It still sounds to me like Solid originally billed for the 200$ sink, then allowed the customer to pick out a 100$ sink from lowes and installed it. Now I assume the lender is probably saying wait, if we loaned you 200 for the sink and you bought a 100$ sink we aren't paying for a 200$ sink, we will loan you the money for the 100$ sink and want the difference back.

The lender is saying the loan was based on A and you went with B which is completely different, which means you require a lesser loan. I assume thats why you don't want to hand over the receipts for things because you both messed up.

I can see why the customer wants the receipts, it means a smaller mortgage for them, and I can see why you don't want to give them, means you will get less/have to give money back, which you may or may not have already spent.

This is exactly why I walk away from things that are over my head, I will stick to what I know, way less headaches. 

It really sounds like Solid is trying to cheat the lender at the expense of the customer.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

SectorSecurity said:


> *This is exactly why I walk away from things that are over my head,or untill I know them I will stick to what I know, way less headaches. *
> 
> It really sounds like Solid is trying to cheat the lender at the expense of the customer.


Sector.....I think I fixed for you......You are not dumb..that is a damn smart principle.

From this obvious "monkey f*** and football", I think you have nailed the issue exactly.... in regard to the bold.

Sector... Just for honest discussion, I'm not sure the OP's intent is to cheat the lender or owner.... I think they honestly got in over their heads (to use your words/description).

Just a guess/opinion... don't think we'll ever know

But I sure like your philosophy...

Best

(PS: And I would sure like to know/understand the terms/procedures of 203K FHA... just for curiosity)


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I'm bored so what the hell...

Like shell and mike I have done my share of 203k projects. We actually have two open ones now. I have worked with 5 different lenders to this point since more banks are getting into the game. A few years ago it was basically wells Fargo and prime lending out of Texas only.

I can tell you that every lender has their own set of contracts, procedures, and contractor approval criteria. When we first got started with Wells Fargo we had to do credit checks and prove minimums in our business accounts. This seems to have loosened up over the years. While each lender has their own system for loans over the magic $30k (could be plus or minus a bit) number a hud advisors gets involved. 

What I like about these 203k projects is their usually no bid work for appreciate people who are getting instant equity by buying low, improving smartly, and using low interest rate money.

Some advice on this deal:

You're not required to show any receipts at all. The bank lady was likely regurgitating what the advisor told them in error (which boggles me and I wouldn't believe it if your husband didn't hear him since they are usually more vague out of fear of being sued or fired than a tax accountant).

This being said at this point I'd show them the receipts for the appliance only and deduct that from the allotted money for the appliances. You said you didn't itemize it, but then you said you did allow for mid range appliances so I'm confused there. You said that you figured on mid range lows stuff and they were frugal and went cheap. Be fair there and allow them those savings, anything else would be salt in their wound as in the end you were the one who failed to clearly dictate the terms. No matter how poorly they have reacted in the face of confusion, what's right is right, pay the man as no money will be deducted from the loan amount unless it's the aforementioned by someone's else 10% contingency money.

Next, try and patch things up with the client because regardless of what the advisor says, the money isn't getting released until they sign off, and the last payment is always bigger than I allow is a standard agreement.

Now moving forward some advice:

Get 2 contracts, one for the bank, and an actual one with your client. In the fine print one of the lenders agents pointed out to me once that this is frowned upon but not illegal. For me I want to get the work approved quickly so the client can close. I tell the clients up front that there will be two contracts. The first one is clearly for the bank approval and is mostly vague terminology and meaningless cost breakdowns. The second one clearly states it supercedes the previous one in every manner in one long legal filled mumbo jumbo statement.
The second one needs to be clear as to allowances and exactly what is included and when.

Also, for 203k since the client has you by the short hairs it's necessary to better qualify the clients. I meet with them telling them upfront I'm going to get a feel for the project with no expectations. Some times I just wish them luck. Some times I tell them that their potential home is not worth it and they'd be better off finding another one and calling me back. Other times I connect with the right people and enjoy helping them work through the process while making a quick no bid sale.

In the second contract I use a single allowance for all commodity items including appliances, fixtures, tile, flooring, etc. I call anything that could cost $5 or $500 a commodity item. I make them responsible for the purchase price of these items out of their pocket, not the loan installements. I tell them that if I'm good enough to front my money, so are they. It's a silly statement but people get it and it's part of the deal from the get. If they don't have enough to float what they want for a month then I definitely don't want to get involved because when all the money is loan money it's sticky. I reimburse them with the final payment which incentives them to sign off without nit picking. When done perfectly the last payment and the commodity item front just about balances out which restores you to the pay to play payment schedule I typically use.

I have more but my thumbs are tired and it's late. Hope that helps...


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Sound advice from Matt, in my estimation.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

*MATT.......:*thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

NOW THAT MAKES SENSE (Sorry had to yell... I knew we could figure it out.)

THANK YOU!:clap::clap::clap:

Do have some associated questions/clarrification.... later... but your explanation makes sense from all angles.... legal/ contractural/ procedural/ business/ advice/ negotiating/ technical / govy beuracratic and even probably what happened to Solid and their newby confusion/circumstances.

Excellent /' Excellent /Excellent

Best

Peter


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