# Flow cup and pressure gauge



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Well I lost me flow cup I bought from the UK that measures GPM so I'm looking for a place in US that sells them. Any ideas where I can order one of these online? The one like below would be great as its almost exactly the same as my old one. I'm also looking for a quality fluid filled pressure gauge in the 0-100/120psi range. Not sure what brands are good over here. My current one leaks.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Look at Omega Engineering for your pressure gauge. 

This your flow cup?

http://www.cigltd.co.uk/prod4.html


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

griz said:


> Look at Omega Engineering for your pressure gauge.
> 
> This your flow cup?
> 
> http://www.cigltd.co.uk/prod4.html


I will check omega out. 

That's similar type. They all do the same thing but seem to only be available in the UK. Guess I will get me Familey to send one over.


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## Daveylad (Oct 20, 2008)

They sell that exact flow cup at my local merchants, I'd have to check the price but I think it was about £7.00 plus vat, if you can't find what your looking for in the US let me know and I could buy one and send it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Daveylad said:


> They sell that exact flow cup at my local merchants, I'd have to check the price but I think it was about £7.00 plus vat, if you can't find what your looking for in the US let me know and I could buy one and send it.


Thanks davey. Have a lot of Familey still in UK who can grab one for me if need be but thanks for the offer. 

I'm not sure what they are using over here to test flow rates! I used this thing a lot.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Did you check ALL of your Systainers?

Tom


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> Did you check ALL of your Systainers?
> 
> Tom


Lol funny Tom 

Talking of systainers I forgot to measure them angles for you but I'm on me way to pic up some bits in a few mins. Will report back in a little bit.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

A five gallon bucket and a watch.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

rex said:


> A five gallon bucket and a watch.


Sod that. If I have to I would but I don't carry buckets on my trailer. 

Is this how people currently do it over here though?


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Borrow the homeowners measuring cup. No bucket needed and they get to "help" in the process---1 one thousand, 2- one thousand 3-one thousand………..:thumbsup:

You measuring device is just a glorified bucket, that won't hold water.:laughing:

Tom


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

In my entire career I've never used or needed one.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I like to know GPM for installs before and after. Some products require a min gallon per min and them cups are a cheap easy accurate way to test and it be stored easy. 

I have a situation currently where I have a volume and pressure issue on a shower and I can't find the dam thing.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Pull the cartridge and clean the screens on the inlets. I had to do it 3 times on one install, the water was so bad just shutting it off and turning it back on cause issues.

Tom


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> Pull the cartridge and clean the screens on the inlets. I had to do it 3 times on one install, the water was so bad just shutting it off and turning it back on cause issues.
> 
> Tom


There's no filter screens on this cartridge. I have removed the one in the valve body that goes to the head but left the head screen in. I always flush the new plumbing before installing the heads so I doubt its a clog issue. It seems to point to the cartridge being a poor design or faulty as outside pressure and volume is great but through the valve its awful. I'm gonna try a new head on the shower too. There's no even enough pressure to give a positive seal on the bath spigot when the valve is closed for shower use.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> There's no filter screens on this cartridge. I have removed the one in the valve body that goes to the head but left the head screen in. I always flush the new plumbing before installing the heads so I doubt its a clog issue. It seems to point to the cartridge being a poor design or faulty as outside pressure and volume is great but through the valve its awful. I'm gonna try a new head on the shower too. There's no even enough pressure to give a positive seal on the bath spigot when the valve is closed for shower use.


I flushed the one I was referring to, still had to pull the cartridge 3 times. 

Change the cartridge, something got in the pressure balancing device in the cartridge.

Tom


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I have an idea that there's a problem on the hot side of the system. I'm thinking their hot pressures are lower than the cold. Not often I see this but they did have cold back feeding through the hot when the test plug was in the valve body. I will know more when I get over there. 

Def gonna try flushing out the cartridge though.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

With the test plug in the cold will transfer to the hot, not unusual. More often than not the cold is first to reach the valve due to the hot water side having to fill from the tank.

Tom


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> With the test plug in the cold will transfer to the hot, not unusual. More often than not the cold is first to reach the valve due to the hot water side having to fill from the tank.
> 
> Tom


When i mean back flow i mean cold out of the hot constantly unless of course the valves are closed. its that much difference in pressure.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

What brand of mixer?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Delta Monitor single


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

tjbnwi said:


> You've got a bad cartridge. The flow gauge on the mixing valve won't do much good, it's 1.6 gpm max.
> 
> Did you by chance install the valve body upside down? It will affect flow to the shower head.
> 
> Tom


Agreed


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> You've got a bad cartridge. The flow gauge on the mixing valve won't do much good, it's 1.6 gpm max.
> 
> Did you by chance install the valve body upside down? It will affect flow to the shower head.
> 
> Tom


As i said its not the cartridge being faulty. Its doing the same thing on the last valve and the other bathroom. 

It could be the other 2 cartridges were also faulty but i highly doubt it. 

Nope i have never installed them the wrong way. its pretty hard to do when they say hot, cold, top bottom on the valve and sometimes even an arrow pointing up lol

I will let you guys know what the problem is once i get over there so you know if you ever have this issue. But im 99% sure its something to do with the hot pressure being low.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I know there is up or an arrow, never seen a hot/cold label. What would you do with a back to back?

Unless the line to the mixing valve is so restricted there is a 50%+ drop in pressure and volume I can't see it happening. 

Hot water pressure is equal to pressure in or slightly higher due to heat expansion. It is the cold water supply that pushes the water through the hot water system. Unless they have a defective blend valve we don't know about or you add a booster pump how you going to increase to pressure/volume?

One more thing----did you open the main supply valve(s) all the way. I assume you closed it/them to install the mixing valve. If it/they are not open completely you will see a fluctuation in pressure, due to inadequate volume. This situation would be exasperated when other fixtures are used simultaneously. 

Tom 





Tom


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> I know there is up or an arrow, never seen a hot/cold label. What would you do with a back to back?
> 
> Unless the line to the mixing valve is so restricted there is a 50%+ drop in pressure and volume I can't see it happening.
> 
> ...


This one has the up stamped on the body and arrows so there's zero chance of it going in the wrong way. Done hundreds of shower valves and never made such a silly mistake. 

I have installed many with red and blue stickers if its a model you can't reverse the cartridge. 

I have seen hot pressures as much as 20-30psi less than the cold numerous times with vented system on cylinders for numerous reason from scale to incorrect angle outlets but not so much on sealed systems. 

This all could be my imagination though and the outside pressure is no better than inside. If its the same or close then I would check the GPM both sides to see if its the valve or head restricting the flow. 

In the UK the valves have pressure reducing coils and flow restrictors installed and if your incoming pressure is low you remove them.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

It's your imagination.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Once you get the situation resolved, let us know what you found.

Tom


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> Once you get the situation resolved, let us know what you found.
> 
> Tom


I'm curious my self. They want me back there anyway to move a shower curtain rail so I'm gonna figure it out whilst I'm there.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

rex said:


> It's your imagination.


Hope so as that means no issue to fix lol


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Got over there this morning. Pre valve pressure hot 75 cold 83 past valve pressure hot 75 cold 75
Def getting a lot less GPM through through the valve even with hot and cold mixing but its not too far off. I guess the cartridge is the main culprit here though. Cheap cheap cheap 

Just seems to be the old hot water heater and valves causing a drop in the hot side. Still good pressure even without the extra 8psi but not as good as flat out cold being on only. I told them to try a couple of different heads. They are gonna let me know how it goes.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Got over there this morning. Pre valve pressure hot 75 cold 83 past valve pressure hot 75 cold 75
> Def getting a lot less GPM through through the valve even with hot and cold mixing but its not too far off. I guess the cartridge is the main culprit here though. Cheap cheap cheap
> 
> Just seems to be the old hot water heater and valves causing a drop in the hot side. Still good pressure even without the extra 8psi but not as good as flat out cold being on only. I told them to try a couple of different heads. They are gonna let me know how it goes.


That's some pretty high pressures. That valve only requires 20 pounds.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> That's some pretty high pressures. That valve only requires 20 pounds.


Hate to see how that thing function at 20psi. Them pressures are the norm around here on city water. Mines at 100psi and its the best shower I have ever taken.


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## Brian Peters (Feb 2, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Hate to see how that thing function at 20psi. Them pressures are the norm around here on city water. Mines at 100psi and its the best shower I have ever taken.


I'm no plumber but wow that seems like a lot of pressure for house plumbing.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Hate to see how that thing function at 20psi. Them pressures are the norm around here on city water. Mines at 100psi and its the best shower I have ever taken.


Flow is regulated by our Government. The flow at 20 is no different than at 40.

That's why we knew it was the cartridge and why a flow cup doesn't matter. 

When a house is properly sized for water distribution we first pick a controlling fixture and usually it's a pressure balance valve that's far away. Then we calculate for pressure loss in the design.

That is also why homes with low pressure, say 50 pounds, can be designed to work excellent and work out very well.

Flow issues on a shower are 99.9999% the result of even the slightest debris in a cartridge.

And that is why many of us push for moentrol valves in old homes.......the rust has a better chance of flowing through without problems.

That particular delta valve is notoriously sensitive, and plumbers almost never push them.

.....not to mention Delta farms out warranty and is horrible with warranty problems. Moen and Kohler has the best warranty response bar none.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Brian Peters said:


> I'm no plumber but wow that seems like a lot of pressure for house plumbing.


Most states have codes that state no residential pressure shall ever exceed 80 psi.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Ok let's make this simple for you too understand. Its not the cartridge for the 20th time. I have known this since the beginning. 

Before valve pressure 
hot 75 psi
cold 83 psi

past valve pressure 
hot 75psi
cold 75psi

Test plug pressure
83psi

Hot water drain pressure 
48psi (its dribling out)

Moen valve pressure
75psi

Couldn't tell you any exact flow rates as I ain't got me jug and flow is not an issue anyway. Its the crappy head causing the issue as there's not even enough back pressure to seal the bath spigot fully. 

The other strange thing was there was some erratic readings they would jump from 85 down to 65 up to 70 down to 40 back to 85. checked WM and Dishwasher was off. I could stop it buy shutting off the incoming main so they have some erratic fluctuations on the main. this is a first for me on city water.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> Most states have codes that state no residential pressure shall ever exceed 80 psi.


Our whole neighbor hood is around this pressure. Most common is 80-85 but the lower you get in the vallys the more pressure their is. I'm half way down the valley but my mate 2 streets down gets 106psi. Familey have had this house for 30 years before we bought it and they never had any issues with the pressure. I have static pressure tested the system to 15 bar for 24hrs so its a walk in the park at 100psi.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Ok let's make this simple for you too understand. Its not the cartridge for the 20th time. I have known this since the beginning.
> 
> Before valve pressure
> hot 75 psi
> ...


That happens on city water every second. That's normal.

How did you test the water pressure before the valve? Where? 

Like I said earlier, forget the pressure testing, flow testing and anything else. You are exceeding all pressure requirements required to operate that mixing valve. 

The very first thing we check is a shower head. We do that before anything else.

If water is weak coming out of the tub spout that's a cartridge problem. 

I can't imagine you would go through all of this without pulling the head first.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Our whole neighbor hood is around this pressure. Most common is 80-85 but the lower you get in the vallys the more pressure their is. I'm half way down the valley but my mate 2 streets down gets 106psi. Familey have had this house for 30 years before we bought it and they never had any issues with the pressure. I have static pressure tested the system to 15 bar for 24hrs so its a walk in the park at 100psi.


What state do you live in? What is the state code maximum allowable pressure?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> That happens on city water every second. That's normal.
> 
> How did you test the water pressure before the valve? Where?
> 
> ...


Never seen that happen with the pressure and I have tested thousands of mains. Seen maybe 1-3 psi changes but never as much as 30psi+.

I tested the hot and cold furthest from the shower, the hot side out and colds and the hot and cold to the sink that's the nearest to the shower on the same run. Same pressures through out. 

I suspected the head and checked the filter but it was clear. I just seems to be a case of crappy head not making use of the pressure. If I put my hand over the head it creates enough back pressure to Seal the spigot. 

If the top of my head its 80psi on new construction. I don't do a lot of new construction so don't quote me in that figure.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I just went to look at the Moen specs. 

The valves are now rated at 1.5 gpm not 1.6. Your measurement may be correct if it was 1.5 gpm.

The head is probably their Eco-Performance line. Not a crappy head, a LEED designed head.

I'm guessing everything is working as designed.

http://www.moen.com/eco-performance/products

Tom


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