# Hand Nailing Shingles?



## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Does anyone still hand nail? I have a school project with asphalt shingle roof. Have hired a roofer based on his GAF "Elite" status, which is required by the contract and warranty. He shows up yesterday with 5 guys with hammers. First he tries to convince me that the "golden pledge" warranty requires hand nailing, which I recognized immediatly as BS. Then he says no, he just always hand nails. 

Question is, how many squares can one guy hand nail in a day? This project has 700 squares, and he has 28 working days to complete, I just gotta do the math to figure out how many men he needs. I'm pretty sure 5 ain't enough :whistling Yesterday he got about 2 squares with the 5 guys he had


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

I know 2 guys that handnail new construction houses in Syracuse NY, they average 25 sq. a day on walkable pitchs.

They are the exception not the rule!


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

If each guy can put down 8 sqs. in a day. 8x5= 40 sqs. per day. 
Now lets say they only get 20 days of working due to weather. 
Then 40 x 20 = 800. 

8 sqs. use to be the min. accepted amount for handnailing. Of course guys can do more but for sqs. per hrly rate that is what it use to be. 30 yrs ago.

Would seem to me very doable.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

Back in my shingling days, I could nail about the same amount in a day by hand or with a gun. If you take out all the time spent fooling with the gun equipment (roll out, roll up, blown breakers, jams) and spend it on the roof nailing, it'll about equal out with good hand nailers. 

The difference was the second day. If I'd hand nailed all day the day before, I had less get up and go the second day vs. gun nailing the day before.

As far as the 2 sq on the 1st day, there's always some getting used to the roof, layout, game plan, setup, etc. that slows us down the 1st day on site. If they only get 2sq done the 2nd day, start to panic.


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

I still hand nail shingles. 
These days I hate roofing and only take a roofing job out of necessity. 
I used to be quite a roof monkey in my younger days and could average 1 1/2 to 2 sq an hour if someone was carrying them up the ladder. I wasn't old and fat then. 
That was BC (before compressors)


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

SC sawdaddy said:


> I wasn't old and fat then.
> That was BC (before compressors)


I resemble that remark.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Thanks for the replys, all helpful. I guess we will give them a couple of days to get up to speed and see what happens. I actually like the idea of hand nailing, takes away the possibility of overshooting the nails. Problem with these school projects is the short schedules we have to commit to these days. Bottom line, if you get it open on time, you succeed. Late, you fail and probably don't get anymore school projects. This one has to be complete July 1 and we are just starting to dry areas to start interior finishes.


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## Roofer Dan (Dec 21, 2009)

depends on what shingles are going down. a metric is 22 less shingles per square that a standard. 

that said, my best day hand nailing 20 sq in a 10 hour day, putting down GS-firehalt (english sized laninate. my best rate hand nailing, 18 2/3 sq xt-25 in 6.5 hours. both were wide open walkers.

best day with a gun, 30 1/3 metric in 11 hours.

all 3 were in my younger days.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

By chance do the specs call for hand nailing?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I feel as if I have seen this thread before. It is physically impossible to hand nail as fast as gun nail. You also can not say that a roof that is hand nailed will have better quality than one that is gun nailed. It all comes down to the installer.

If this guy only has his guys lay down 2 squares in a full day and there is 5 of them, then something is seriously wrong. You were also right about the master elite installer status. Hand nailing is not required.

If anyone ever says to me that they can hand nail faster than I can with a gun, I usually take that as a challenge. After the first square, the other guys give up. I just dont see the point in hand nailing anymore. Things have changed. Does anyone still use a horse and buggy or do they use cars and trucks instead? Same thing.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

griz said:


> By chance do the specs call for hand nailing?


No. Specs call for getting done on schedule. :thumbup:


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## Just a Roofer (Jan 9, 2009)

Back in my day i would average 2 square an hour on any walk on, not just open runs. Could probably do it now for the FIRST day as someone else noted but would be hurting thereafter.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

BamBamm5144;862624 It is physically impossible to hand nail as fast as gun nail. [/quote said:


> You sir, are correct. But I can put a sq+ on by hand while you're getting the compressor out, oiling the gun, running the hoses, etc. I can get the same amount done while you're rolling up. While you're clearing a nail jam, I'm hand nailing away. While you're re-setting a breaker or filling the gas tank, I'm hand nailing away. Tortoise and hare scenario.
> 
> Don't misunderstand me - I'm no hand nailing purist. I own 5-6 compressors and twice that many guns. But I figure a job's got to be 4-5 squares before it's worth dragging out the gun. And these days, we're doing a lot more repairing than roofing.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

Just a Roofer said:


> Back in my day i would average 2 square an hour


That's driving 600 nails an hour 10 or nails a minute. One every 6 seconds.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Seeyou - I see your point, however, it takes me about a minute to roll the compressor out of the trailer and fill it with gas. It doesnt get a refill until lunch time, which is when you would not be hand nailing or working anyway. It takes about 20 seconds to oil my gun. Then, maybe a minute to get the hoses how I want and connected to the gun. Take the box of nails up on the roof with me, fill my belt up with 6 coils, set the box at the ridge, pull down a bundle and start roofing. All in no more than 5 minutes. If I dont make up that time difference within the first square of your hand nailing (which will require frequent breaks in order to refill your toolbelt - much longer than grabing a new coil and putting it in) then I am not very good at what I do.

However, I wont take out the compressor if its a repair or only around 3 square, other than that, gun nailing just saves too much time.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

contractor/hairsylist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Grant, When did you go to school for this combo??


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

You gotta go to school to be either one of those things? What'll they think of next?


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

seeyou said:


> But I figure a job's got to be 4-5 squares before it's worth dragging out the gun. And these days, we're doing a lot more repairing than roofing.


I figure 700 squares is worth draggging out the gun :whistling


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

mudpad said:


> I figure 700 squares is worth draggging out the gun :whistling


Almost!:thumbsup:


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

Most school jobs in the NW spec 6-nail, hot dip galv. No EG an No guns allowed. 
5 guys worth a damn should easily finish that in 3 weeks.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

I still hand nail full time, I have done both and up to acouple years ago I was still equipped to run guns but have chosen not to, we offer a custom service that separates us from 99.9% of the rest of the roofers in our area.

Quality depends on the installer, not the method.
The only reason the majority of failed roofs in the past decade were gun nailed is because the majority of roofers use that method.

Walkable, 3-tab or dimensional 25/30 year shingle, standard or metric,underlayment already installed I would average 50 - 60 square per 8 hour day with my current 4 man crew.
If the shingles are delivered roof top the daily average would go up.
If there are large wide open sections with out walls/dormers the daily average would be better.
Of course the better the weather the better the production.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Renegade said:


> Most school jobs in the NW spec 6-nail, hot dip galv. No EG an No guns allowed.
> 5 guys worth a damn should easily finish that in 3 weeks.


Most schools in the South have EPDM, Modified Bitumen or Metal roofs. First one I have done with asphalt shingles, and the only reason it is getting done on this school is that it is a requirement in the neighborhood it is being built next to. The neighbors didn't want it here at all, so the school board agreed to a shingle roof to get them off their backs. The architect is not familiar with asphalt shingles either, but he has talked the school board into buying the GAF Golden Pledge warranty, which cost them about $8/ square, but covers materials and installation for 25 years.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Its been a long time, cant remember how many sq i used to nail down a day as a kid, i think it was 35:whistling:whistling, kind of like a fish story....I will tell you i LOVED hand nailing shingle, you and your buddy, the rythm, pounding away, loading your fingers as the the hammer strikes the nail with percision, as fast as any nail gun, (maybe not, but damn fast). A cooler of cold ones waiting on the ground , nail that last cap, cut that last rake.....GMOD


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> A cooler of cold ones waiting on the ground


The ground?:no:

I did roofing for a summer when I was in my last year of high school and those guys did more drugs then you could imagine and no one ever got injured which blew my mind.

The first day was always the slowest, the next few days you get a rhythm going and things seems to go a lot faster. 

All this roofing talk has reminded me about how much I hated roofing, but it kept me in better shape then I am now.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

mudpad said:


> I figure 700 squares is worth draggging out the gun :whistling


Hell, back in my prime, I could do 700 squares a day hand nailing, wearing high heels and a low cut sweater. :no:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

seeyou said:


> Hell, back in my prime, I could do 700 squares a day hand nailing, wearing high heels and a low cut sweater. :no:


 
Now that is something I would love to see. :thumbup:

The talk of high heels made me think of women. How many of you guys have either hired lady roofers or seen them working for someone else? A company did a roof around the block from where we were working on one and they had two lady roofers and to be honest, it looked like they were teaching the guys a thing or two. Then again, those ladies arent going to win a beauty contest anytime soon.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Now that is something I would love to see. :thumbup:
> 
> The talk of high heels made me think of women. How many of you guys have either hired lady roofers or seen them working for someone else? A company did a roof around the block from where we were working on one and they had two lady roofers and to be honest, it looked like they were teaching the guys a thing or two. Then again, those ladies arent going to win a beauty contest anytime soon.


Might be one reason they are roofing!:whistling


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Now that is something I would love to see. :thumbup:
> 
> How many of you guys have either hired lady roofers.


I've had two. One could solder as well as most that have worked for me (she was also deaf) and the other was a natural dump truck (with a 2 sp rear end) driver. They both were easy enough to look at (I know, I know, but when the rest of your crew is toothless and prison tattooed, it's a nice contrast) and they both moved on to greener pastures after a year or so. 

The 1st is now a teacher (she's substitute taught my daughter) and the other married a friend of mine (masonry contractor) she met on the job.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Now that is something I would love to see. :thumbup:
> 
> The talk of high heels made me think of women. How many of you guys have either hired lady roofers or seen them working for someone else? A company did a roof around the block from where we were working on one and they had two lady roofers and to be honest, it looked like they were teaching the guys a thing or two. Then again, those ladies arent going to win a beauty contest anytime soon.


 A friend of mine used to bring his girlfriend up on the roof to feed him shingles. She was quite attractive, very shapely and spewed four letter words like Richard Pryor.:whistling Last I heard, she was a State Forest Ranger.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

seeyou said:


> Hell, back in my prime, I could do 700 squares a day hand nailing, wearing high heels and a low cut sweater. :no:


I'll make you a deal- if you can do just half that, and do my roof in 2 days, I'll hire you by the hour at $250 an hour. Lawyer rates.

Only catch is you gotta have liability insurance cause I figure nails and shingle scrap will be flying all over the neighborhood. :w00t:


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

mudpad said:


> I'll make you a deal- if you can do just half that, and do my roof in 2 days, I'll hire you by the hour at $250 an hour. Lawyer rates.
> 
> Only catch is you gotta have liability insurance cause I figure nails and shingle scrap will be flying all over the neighborhood. :w00t:



I'm way past my prime. I'd just stare in awe of those guys you hired that do 2 sq a day, now. 

BTW, how'd they do today?


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Now that is something I would love to see. :thumbup:
> 
> The talk of high heels made me think of women. How many of you guys have either hired lady roofers or seen them working for someone else? A company did a roof around the block from where we were working on one and they had two lady roofers and to be honest, it looked like they were teaching the guys a thing or two. Then again, those ladies arent going to win a beauty contest anytime soon.


When my wife first got out of school she worked for the state as a food stamp social worker. She tells a story about a case where the hubby was a roofer, the wife would feed him shingles, and the three year old boy would sit up on the roof and load nail aprons for his dad. Good thing OSHA didn't see that one. Obviously he wasn't doing 10 squares a day, or he wouldn't have been on food stamps.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Well about 10 yrs ago, I was framing homes in a retirement subdivision. They were 5/12 pitch roofs.

The roofer was about 40 yrs old. Well, he and his wife would start at 7am, and typically work till 6 or 7 pm.

He handnailed, while she fed him the shingles, and they installed 100 bundles each and every day. I couldn't believe it! I've seen some fast shinglers, but this guy was awesome.

Never seen anything like it, before or since. :thumbup:


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> If the shingles are delivered roof top the daily average would go up.
> If there are large wide open sections with out walls/dormers the daily average would be better.
> Of course the better the weather the better the production.


Shingle being delivered to rooftop via Lull.

Large wide open sections I got:










Now the weather is another thing. Yesterday, when the guy got 2 squares with 5 guys, it was 50 degrees and partly cloudy. Now I got 6" of snow on the roof.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

mudpad said:


> Shingle being delivered to rooftop via Lull.
> 
> Large wide open sections I got:
> 
> ...


Yeah nice open sections.
Eeven if we got there at 7-7:30am and pushed snow/prep work until 9-9:30am we would still be able to get between 35 - 45 square a day depending on temps and if it's not actually raining, snowing or to windy through out the day.
That's with my current crew in which the most experience guy "besides me" has been roofing less than three years.

I'm not visualizing 700 square on those three buildings, is there some smaller buildings not in the picture?


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

I never hired a lady roofer myself but have worked with a couple, they did ok.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Nope, that's 120,000 sf on two levels your looking at, plus slopes and overhangs.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

I also wanted to mention the roofer being certified situation.

I had my youngest daughter, who at the time was 18 years old and had/has never been on a roof, more or less worked on one.
She read the information they provided, took the test one time and passed with a 89%.

I had/have no desire to be certified by any one manufacture, so I did not take the test myself.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

seeyou said:


> I'm way past my prime. I'd just stare in awe of those guys you hired that do 2 sq a day, now.
> 
> BTW, how'd they do today?


They didn't show up cause snow was forecast. :furious: They could have worked til noon. 

I am not impressed so far.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Mudpad - I will take a trip down there. I will bring one other guy with a gun. I bet you we get it done before those 5 are done playing with their hammers.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Mudpad - I will take a trip down there. I will bring one other guy with a gun. I bet you we get it done before those 5 are done playing with their hammers.


:clap:


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> I also wanted to mention the roofer being certified situation.
> 
> I had my youngest daughter, who at the time was 18 years old and had/has never been on a roof, more or less worked on one.
> She read the information they provided, took the test one time and passed with a 89%.
> ...


Yeah, I'm no roofer, but I bet I could pass any test they have after reading thru the info one time. Roofing ain't rocket science. I bet they don't ask "how many squares can you hand nail in a day".

The catch is according to GAF you have to have this "Elite" certification for the "Golden Pledge" warranty, which covers the installation, and the owner(read taxpayer) has paid big bucks for. 

Elite my a** I say. Elite don't mean chit if you can't get a building in the dry.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Mudpad - All it basically is, is an open book test. For the Master Elite Golden Pledge, the contractors pay a hefty sum to GAF but some contractors think that sets them apart because of the warranty they can offer. We not master elite but we have the system plus warranty which basically means we dont pay a yearly fee, but had to take the same test, some of the terms are different and the cost of 300 gets added onto a persons job for the warranty. Not sure if you ever looked it up but here is the link.

http://www.gaf.com/Roofing/Residential-Roofing/Warranty-Information/Warranty-Information.asp


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Mudpad - All it basically is, is an open book test. For the Master Elite Golden Pledge, the contractors pay a hefty sum to GAF but some contractors think that sets them apart because of the warranty they can offer. We not master elite but we have the system plus warranty which basically means we dont pay a yearly fee, but had to take the same test, some of the terms are different and the cost of 300 gets added onto a persons job for the warranty. Not sure if you ever looked it up but here is the link.
> 
> http://www.gaf.com/Roofing/Residential-Roofing/Warranty-Information/Warranty-Information.asp


Yeah, I looked it up. Which brings up another issue. 

In the fine print the first thing that the warranty excludes is improper ventilation. Design has a 3" continuous soffit vent, but at the top there is only 1 power ventilator per wing, total of 6 for over 60,000 feet of attic space. The submittal data on the vents says they are good for about 2300 sf each. So the building requires about 4 to 5 time that many, if I am doing the math right.

I brought this up with the architect. He says that they worked with GAF on the design and everything is cool. I think he is in "denial" mode.

I talked to the GAF rep (who, it turns out, went through boy scouts with my son, so it's kinda hard to take him seriously). He says all he knows is the architect told him he had some super duper power ventilator. 

I sent the specs for the ventilator to the rep and asked him to coordinate with architect to be sure that the requirements of the warranty were satisfied. I got a feeling I am going to have a big change order to price up. :clap:


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## GregC (Jan 24, 2010)

Hand nailing...wow.. those were the days huh? Hey guys, do any of you remember the aluminum cans or boxes you use to hang around your neck? We had those boxes that had the slide out slot underneath to slide out your nails. It worked slick, when it worked! :no: but wow..thats telling you my age now. LOL


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

GregC said:


> Hand nailing...wow.. those were the days huh? Hey guys, do any of you remember the aluminum cans or boxes you use to hang around your neck? We had those boxes that had the slide out slot underneath to slide out your nails. It worked slick, when it worked! :no: but wow..thats telling you my age now. LOL


 "Birdfeeders" is what we called them. Lots of guys were still hand nailing back in the mid 80s. I don't even do roofing and I own two roofing guns.:laughing: One was given to me and the other I bought to attach stucco wire over felt and studs. It was an inexpensive way to enclose parking areas under shore homes built on pilings.


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## GregC (Jan 24, 2010)

loneframer said:


> "Birdfeeders" is what we called them. Lots of guys were still hand nailing back in the mid 80s. I don't even do roofing and I own two roofing guns.:laughing: One was given to me and the other I bought to attach stucco wire over felt and studs. It was an inexpensive way to enclose parking areas under shore homes built on pilings.


Thats right, remember those darn things. You were somebody if you had one of those. Other than your neck looking like the Incredible Hulk after wearing one, they were OK to use. I now have 6 coil roofers.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

GregC said:


> Hand nailing...wow.. those were the days huh? Hey guys, do any of you remember the aluminum cans or boxes you use to hang around your neck? We had those boxes that had the slide out slot underneath to slide out your nails. It worked slick, when it worked! :no: but wow..thats telling you my age now. LOL


Sorry, I am not familiar with this. Can you explain further? if it makes hand nailing go faster I want to suggest it to my "Elite" roofer.


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## GregC (Jan 24, 2010)

Well, these were open top, rectangular aluminum boxes with a slot on the bottom, and as you shook the box, hopefully the nails fell down and the head held them inside, then you would reach under with your two fingers, slide out the nail in between your fingers and nail! :no: In theory it worked some times LOL 

Suggest to him a $150 coil nailer instead!


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

GregC said:


> Suggest to him a $150 coil nailer instead!


I would buy him the nailer and the compressor if I thought he knew how to use it efficiently. Haven't got time for on the job training.


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## GregC (Jan 24, 2010)

mudpad said:


> I would buy him the nailer and the compressor if I thought he knew how to use it efficiently. Haven't got time for on the job training.


LMAO... I hear ya there! :no:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

GregC said:


> Well, these were open top, rectangular aluminum boxes with a slot on the bottom, and as you shook the box, hopefully the nails fell down and the head held them inside, then you would reach under with your two fingers, slide out the nail in between your fingers and nail! :no: In theory it worked some times LOL
> 
> Suggest to him a $150 coil nailer instead!


I knew a couple guys who had the birdfeeders down pat. They would slide out enough nails between the index and middle finger with one grab to nail off the shingle. They both used roofing hatchets with the shingle gauge set. I can't say how many squares a day, but they sounded like they were stapling down paper the whole time they were up there. Which is very annoying when you're inside doing framing punch out.:hammer::bangin:


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

You have to nail like this guy at :50 seconds:laughing:








Dave


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

dkillianjr said:


> You have to nail like this guy at :50 seconds:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, but he is a whole lot faster later in the clip when he gets out his gun!


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

http://www.nailstripper.com/products.html


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

mudpad said:


> I would buy him the nailer and the compressor if I thought he knew how to use it efficiently. Haven't got time for on the job training.


It could be worse, they could already have nail guns and not know how to run them, nail down 100-150 square a day that won't last 10 years.
I know a bunch of those type of roofers.

I never used the can "bird feeder" but my brothers father-in-law saw them used in Texas when he worked down near Houston.
That was also where he saw them taping a magnet to the end of their claw hammer, I tried the magnet for awhile but did not like it but most the guys working for me did.
Than in the early 90's we switched to nail guns along with everyone else,
than went back to hand nails in the 2000's, hard to find good hand bangers now a days.


Your disappointed in your "Elite" roofer because he has not worked yet,
I doubt a nail gun would have changed that, I mean if 5 guys hand banged 2 square the first day, even with a gun making them 3 times as fast they would have only gotten 6 squares.


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

dkillianjr said:


> You have to nail like this guy at :50 seconds:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that considered racking?

IF that is ice and water running up the rakes shouldn't that over lap the felt that they are putting down with the drip edge over lapping the I&W?

Just because he is nailing fast, doesn't mean the nails are where they are supposed to be. He is a nailing fool though:laughing:

As a general rule on a walker like that. I:

Drip edge on the eaves
Ice and water the eaves 1 or 2 deep depending on depth of overhang
"Felt" (have been using the synthetic when the customer budget allows) the body of the roof, leaving 2 1/2' (roughly) exposed at the rakes. 
Run I&W up the rakes
Install drip edge up the rakes
Run starter shingles on the eaves and up the rake
Shingle using the manufacturers recommended starter books.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Racking is an approved method for 3 tab shingles. I don't know about the Archs.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I have seen guys rack Archs. I dont rememebr reading anything about it not being allowed but I would never do it anyways because you will easily be able to see a pattern.

PA - Thats a little over kill. I think the whole I+W gimmick up the rakes is only for the manufacturer to make money.

And did anyone comment how that guy is not even close to the proper nailing pattern for those shingles?


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Framer53 said:


> Racking is an approved method for 3 tab shingles. I don't know about the Archs.


Strictly speaking racking in approved, but not recommended by all the shingle manufactures I have dealt with. It won't void your warranty but the biggest problem is color variations between bundles show up as vertical stripes up the roof. Other problem of course is you have to lift them up to nail the next rack, not good especially in cold weather.


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I have seen guys rack Archs. I dont rememebr reading anything about it not being allowed but I would never do it anyways because you will easily be able to see a pattern.
> 
> *PA - Thats a little over kill. I think the whole I+W gimmick up the rakes is only for the manufacturer to make money.
> *
> And did anyone comment how that guy is not even close to the proper nailing pattern for those shingles?


Sometimes yes...I don't always I&W the rakes, but if it's a high wind area, I will always recommend it. and get approval to use it most of the time. I'm sure you know what it's like trying to scrape shingles off the I&W. That always makes for a good time:laughing:

I install more 40 year and lifetime shingles than I do 30 year. I think cost to me is like 45 - 50 a square more than the 30 and most customers see it as a good value for their money. Obviously if they're 70 years old they don't need a lifetime roof, but did apply one for a 74 year old woman this past fall. She was looking at the resale value of the home for her children. I don't do a lot of roofs though. Usually 6 or 7 a year and I'm ok with that. I don't actively seek out roofs, but will do them because there is good money in them.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Yes I can understand it being used in certain situations but I think manufacturers push it too much and roofers rely on it too much. I have had a few roofs that were entirely I+W for the underlayment, those made for the longest tear offs ever and the most redecking.

I never quit understood the meaning behind a 40 year shingle. I think all manu. can cancel their lines of 40 year shingles. I either sell 30 or lifetime, and truth is, no one yet knows how long a 30 or lifetime arch shingle will actually last.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

*Update*

We have provided another roofing crew to work under the supervision of the GAF "Master Elite" roofer. Yesterday they started at 10 a.m. (after pushing the last of the snow off) and 5 guys got 75 squares by 5 p.m.

Today it rained.

I can't get a break.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

How much more time do you have??


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Framer53 said:


> How much more time do you have??


Well, the whole project is a solid 30 days behind schedule. Of course the roof is the key to getting interior finishes started. If we could just get the 1st third of the building under roof that would turn loose the areas that have the most work, administrative areas and cafeteria kitchen. The rest is classrooms, and the Gym.

Per his contract he now 22 working days (saturday is a working day) to complete. Which shouldnt be a problem if he can get some weather breaks, and the handnailing guys don't come back.:laughing: 

Forecast is rain and snow every day except sunday for the next week, and we can't work sunday because of a noise ordinance.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I installed 18 square this week, worked 4 hours sunday, 6 hours monday and 5 today. I counted shoveling snow, melting ice and sweeping snow in that. Hell I had to hoof 1/2 of them up the ladder.

It is nice on a roof when the sun is poking out.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I installed 18 square this week, worked 4 hours sunday, 6 hours monday and 5 today. I counted shoveling snow, melting ice and sweeping snow in that. Hell I had to hoof 1/2 of them up the ladder.
> 
> It is nice on a roof when the sun is poking out.


It's nice when the sun pokes out anywhere you are around here. This project is the sloppiest mess I have ever been on. We got Lulls up past their axles. We keep a D4 around just to pull 'em out! More rain today, snow tonight. I am going down to codes this morning to beg them to let us work Sunday, (noise ordinance) thats the only decent working day for the next week.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

mudpad said:


> I am going down to codes this morning to beg them to let us work Sunday, (noise ordinance) thats the only decent working day for the next week.


I was gonna suggest going for it and paying the fine if anybody complains.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

The roofers down time/days due to weather or injury aren't covered in your contract?

Saturday is a work day?

Elite roofer supervision?

I bet the new "productive" crew isn't even getting a hundred bucks a square either.
That's exactly why we rarely bid those types of jobs.


I'm not sure about your area but around here in the few places I have worked with noise ordinances there is no fine for working Sunday, they simply send an police officer out and shut you down, and can arrest anyone who refuses.
It's not like you could keep working and simply pay a fine later on,
so check that out before you work Sunday without permission.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> The roofers down time/days due to weather or injury aren't covered in your contract?
> 
> Saturday is a work day?
> 
> ...


We have a weather delay clause in the contract. However, the cardinal sin for a school contractor is to be late getting a school open. If your late, you won't be building any more schools around here, no matter what the weather. Don't plan to have any injuries, I am pretty tough on safety. 

Saturday is a work day, yes, and it is in everybody's contract. Any sub that is maintaining his schedule on a 40 hour week can go fishing on Saturday. 

The roofing contract breaks down to about $500 a square, to include wood deck, underlayment and shingles, a few small areas of metal roof, and an even smaller area of EPDM. You do the math. How the roofer sub gets this done is up to him. 

I am to claustrophobic to go to jail. We won't be breaking any noise ordinance without permission. We stayed late one night to finish a concrete slab in rainy cold weather. I called the codes director to explain my dilemna, and he called the law and asked them to lay off, which they did. He works with us pretty good, even gave me his cell phone # for emergency situations.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

mudpad said:


> We have provided another roofing crew to work under the supervision of the GAF "Master Elite" roofer. Yesterday they started at 10 a.m. (after pushing the last of the snow off) and 5 guys got 75 squares by 5 p.m.
> 
> Today it rained.
> 
> I can't get a break.


That's a fairly high run of shingles (eave to ridge) and I do not see any breaks in the stagger, you may want to ask your Elite supervisor about that.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

mudpad said:


> We have a weather delay clause in the contract. However, the cardinal sin for a school contractor is to be late getting a school open. If your late, you won't be building any more schools around here, no matter what the weather. Don't plan to have any injuries, I am pretty tough on safety.
> 
> Saturday is a work day, yes, and it is in everybody's contract. Any sub that is maintaining his schedule on a 40 hour week can go fishing on Saturday.
> 
> ...



I figured you were good on safety when I saw roofers wearing hard hats on the roof. I mean their on top of everything and everyone, whats going to fall on them.
I like the slider/kicker board, see to many guys use 2x4 sliders in the walkable slope situations.

I hope you guys are not going to get what we are here, 5 - 7 inches of snow over night and into tomorrow morning.


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## roof-lover (Sep 19, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> That's a fairly high run of shingles (eave to ridge) and I do not see any breaks in the stagger, you may want to ask your Elite supervisor about that.


Slyfox, i greatly respect you.
But i think you are causing a problem here where there is not one.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Yeah not to sure I would have done it any differently. Looks like a 6 inch offset to me.


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## roof-lover (Sep 19, 2008)

There is no one around that would possibly complain about some roofers doing their job making too much noise on that job.
That is completely rediculous. If those workers want to work, you let them. 
Oh, and did they go home at 5pm on there own or did you make them?

Dont you dare tell me what time you want me to go home when there is sunlight left and what day you dont want me to work
and at the same time tell me to hurry up? WOW.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

perhaps no one on the crew can speak or read english so they could not read the application directions on the wrappers.
This seems to be more on getting the job done rather then what is best.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

red_cedar said:


> perhaps no one on the crew can speak or read english so they could not read the application directions on the wrappers.
> This seems to be more on getting the job done rather then what is best.


I think they put the directions in english and spainish these days. Of course some people can't read, period.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i was doing a small soffit job on a shopping center once on a sunday and the cop was going to arrest me


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

roof-lover said:


> There is no one around that would possibly complain about some roofers doing their job making too much noise on that job.
> That is completely rediculous. If those workers want to work, you let them.
> Oh, and did they go home at 5pm on there own or did you make them?
> 
> ...


Check this aerial photo out if you think there is no one around to complain. And the neighbors are pissed anyway cause the main entrance to the school is through the neighborhood on the right and exit through the neighborhood on the left. 











And they went quit at 5 so they can get their equipment put up and gone by 5:30, which is dark. Noise ordinance goes into effect at 6.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

"I figured you were good on safety when I saw roofers wearing hard hats on the roof. I mean their on top of everything and everyone, whats going to fall on them."
Yeah, non OSHA, and non insurance. Compliance with either is from the eave downwards. 
If the sky or an airplane does fall on them, the hardhats won't help. If, as sometimes happens, a gust of wind snatches one off a roofer's head, there are plenty of people on the ground that can get whacked with it. :laughing:


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> i was doing a small soffit job on a shopping center once on a sunday and the cop was going to arrest me


I had a cop offer to arrest me on a job in Nashville last year trying to finish a slab. Like I said I am claustrophobic and I ain't going to jail. We shut it down and had to do some skimming and grinding the next day.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

roof-lover said:


> Slyfox, i greatly respect you.
> But i think you are causing a problem here where there is not one.


Huh?

Oh, were you referring to my comment about no breaks in the stagger?
If that's it, I was simply making sure he knew that and could ask the Elite Roofer who is supervising the roofers about it.
If problems would come up years down the road the manufacturer could use something like that to show improper installation.
It could be the manufacturer rep is going to let it go being that they have all ready let other things slide from their original request, but it's better to know for sure now before the roofers get to far.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

I wasn't attempting to cause trouble, not sure what in my post suggested I was but I am not.

I haven't worked in Tenn- since 1989, so it's not like I'm trying to get the current roofers kicked out so I can come in.

I meant the comment about safety in a respectful manner as well,
I mean if they have to wear hard hats on the roof than I doubt any ones going to let them skimp on safety.
My understanding is OSHA only requires they have them on hand so they can wear them once they leave the roof and are on the ground.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

Quite a few years ago when I was working for someone else I had a cop one time stop me on a holiday. It was new construction project

He said what are you doing, why are you here? I told him I was working and I need the money.

He let me alone and drove off.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Slyfox said:


> My understanding is OSHA only requires they have them on hand so they can wear them once they leave the roof and are on the ground.


That's correct Sly. We hammered that out on a large commercial job in '72 when the OSHA guy got on my case about not wearing one. Took them 2-3 hours for the whole OSHA team to agree that it's unnessary.
Rule is that they be there to wear at soon as a person steps on the ladder to leave the roof.

How's the job coming now Mudpad?


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> Huh?
> 
> Oh, were you referring to my comment about no breaks in the stagger?
> If that's it, I was simply making sure he knew that and could ask the Elite Roofer who is supervising the roofers about it.
> ...


Not being a roofer I don't know what the issue is with breaking the stagger. But believe me if there is any chance it could be a problem I don't want to do it. Could you explain in a little more detail?


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> I wasn't attempting to cause trouble, not sure what in my post suggested I was but I am not.
> 
> I haven't worked in Tenn- since 1989, so it's not like I'm trying to get the current roofers kicked out so I can come in.
> 
> ...


No offense taken here. I'll take all the help I can get. And your right, they don't have to wear hard hats on the roof, but when they hit that ladder they better have it on. Most of them elect just to wear it. You might also notice that they are 100% tied off.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

red_cedar said:


> Quite a few years ago when I was working for someone else I had a cop one time stop me on a holiday. It was new construction project
> 
> He said what are you doing, why are you here? I told him I was working and I need the money.
> 
> He let me alone and drove off.


:laughing: Same reason he was working I guess, he needed the money! :laughing:


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

tinner666 said:


> How'a the job coming now Mudpad?


Rained all day today, nobody even got on the roof. Predicting a little snow tonight, more rain tommorow. When I asked the codes director about letting us work sunday he said "absolutely not" 

Like I said I can't get a break.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Bummer. 4" here today so far.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

mudpad said:


> Not being a roofer I don't know what the issue is with breaking the stagger. But believe me if there is any chance it could be a problem I don't want to do it. Could you explain in a little more detail?


I guess you don't have to worry about that, I didn't realize their warranty covered the contractors workmanship on installation.

*Until relatively recently, there were no manufacturers that provided warranty coverage against errors in the contractors’ workmanship. Recognizing this obvious need, GAF-Elk introduced the Golden Pledge® Ltd. Warranty — the first manufacturer’s warranty to cover both material defects and the contractor’s workmanship (see ltd. warranty for complete coverage and restrictions). Whether or not your contractor remains in business, GAF-Elk will stand behind his workmanship for 20 years! The Golden Pledge® Ltd. Warranty is available only through GAF-Elk Master Elite™ Contractors, who are factory-certified by GAF-Elk. The warranty even includes an inspection by GAF-Elk’s independent inspectors after your new roof has been completed to insure proper installation. It is the strongest, safest warranty available in roofing today. Your Master Elite™ Contractor can provide a price for the warranty when he gives you a quote for your new roof.*

I was talking about how they are stepping off their shingles, if you run them according to spec those steps will vary in size and half large steps of 20" or more here and there to break up the step off pattern.
The step off spec's are on the bundle wrappers.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

tinner666 said:


> Bummer. 4" here today so far.


Just 2" of snow here so far but several inches more expected.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

6, 11,17, and then a full is what gaf says they want.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> I was talking about how they are stepping off their shingles, if you run them according to spec those steps will vary in size and half large steps of 20" or more here and there to break up the step off pattern.
> The step off spec's are on the bundle wrappers.


I guess I'll be reading a wrapper on Monday. I got my assistant opening the job up tommorow, just in case we get a break in the weather.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

mudpad said:


> I guess I'll be reading a wrapper on Monday. I got my assistant opening the job up tommorow, just in case we get a break in the weather.


I hope the weathers better for you today than it is here.
We have atleast a foot of snow on the ground, all in the past 14 hours and it's still falling.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> I hope the weathers better for you today than it is here.
> We have atleast a foot of snow on the ground, all in the past 14 hours and it's still falling.


Just flurries here today. Please keep the snow up there.


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## 4 seasons (Jan 4, 2010)

This has been an interesting thread. Originally I saw the title and thought " That is way to many posts too just be about hand nailing" The first roof I did in my high school shop class I had to hand nail. I don't remember much about it. I have onlly been in the field for like 13 years so hand nailing is dead to me. I was always using a gun and could not imagine having to do it by hand. I know that when i'm moving, most guys without a gun could never keep up. I'm sure that is true for most guys here.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

mudpad said:


> Just flurries here today. Please keep the snow up there.


I don't know about you but were getting snow AgaiN, calling for another 5 - 8 inches between Tuesday morning and Wednesday afternoon.
I had to cancel work today also because the temp's "not the wind chill" was -8F this morning and currently is 5F.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Slyfox said:


> I don't know about you but were getting snow AgaiN, calling for another 5 - 8 inches between Tuesday morning and Wednesday afternoon.
> I had to cancel work today also because the temp's "not the wind chill" was -8F this morning and currently is 5F.


It's supposed to stay north of us, just rain here. We are roofing right now, but rain supposed to start this afternoon. Cold the rest of the week, but nothing like you got. Highs in 30's lows in 20's. Workable, but not comfortable!


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

mudpad said:


> It's supposed to stay north of us, just rain here. We are roofing right now, but rain supposed to start this afternoon. Cold the rest of the week, but nothing like you got. Highs in 30's lows in 20's. Workable, but not comfortable!


Glad your weather will be a little better than here and hope your roofers can be productive for you.


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## Dunn Wright (Feb 9, 2010)

*www.dunnwrightsystems.com*

Well i hire and fire bout a 100 guys a year, and have had many successful hand nailers, that being said, most of the boys that say they "handnail" just dont have the gear to get the job done. they simply arent qualified or have personal issues etc in there lifes that they cant buy the apropriate tools cause of there habits.lol. but 2 squares a day even on a 12/12 chopped right up, sucks and id be lookin for a nother crew asap or your gonna embarass your self for sure!!!! all the best


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Dunn Wright said:


> Well i hire and fire bout a 100 guys a year, and have had many successful hand nailers, that being said, most of the boys that say they "handnail" just dont have the gear to get the job done. they simply arent qualified or have personal issues etc in there lifes that they cant buy the apropriate tools cause of there habits.lol. but 2 squares a day even on a 12/12 chopped right up, sucks and id be lookin for a nother crew asap or your gonna embarass your self for sure!!!! all the best


Right. and now the owner is figuring out that maybe the "Golden Pledge" warranty aint such a great deal after all, so the "Elite Installer" thing may be a moot point.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

How much they got done?


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> How much they got done?












Picture from today. Shingles are about 50%, after supplementing the hand nailers with an additional crew with air nailers. Plus we got a little break in the weather. We got more done in the last three days than we did in the previous three weeks. 

Problem now is that the metal deck guy can't stay ahead. It's always something. Guess I'll be trying to round up another decking crew next week. 

I saw the aerial photographer fly over yesterday, when I get the next aerial shot I'll post it.


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