# Difficult to find shower leak



## CharlieM (Aug 16, 2007)

I’ve posted some pictures of this shower here - http://public.fotki.com/Magers-Construction/project-10023/

We completed this bathroom renovation in January of 2011. Within the first year the owner contacted us concerned about a wet spot on the wall just outside of the shower curb. This is on the same wall as the shower plumbing. I’ve repaired this wall four times, the latest repair being three months ago. The owner contacted me a week ago letting me know the wall is wet again. 

The first time we removed the shower door and resealed the bottom and side channels. The second time we sealed the wall tile at the curb threshold and down to the shower floor with silicone. The last time I removed the grout between the curb threshold and the wall tile and caulked as deep in the joint as I could. I also cut a 12" X 12" opening in the drywall and checked behind the wall. There are no plumbing pipes near the wet area. I’m at my wit’s end with this leak and I’ve run out of ideas. Look at the picture labeled "shower mold" to see where the wet area is in relationship to the shower.

We continue to address this problem with the owner because it developed within the warranty period and we’ve not been able to correct it properly. I would sincerely appreciate any input you guys might have. 

Thanks,
Charlie


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Hire someone that knows what they're doing with a thermal camera.

Tom


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## CharlieM (Aug 16, 2007)

That's an interesting idea. How would that work in this situation? Would it be able to track the migration of the water?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Any pics of what's under the tile? Details of your method would be most helpful.

If it's bare cement board and regular grout, that looks like a lot of joints to permit water to get through the grout and get into the cement board like a sponge. It's got to go somewhere, not just straight down over the flange. Just a thought. I'll bet if you could look at the backside of that area, the cement board is probably soaked (if that's what's there).


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

CharlieM said:


> That's an interesting idea. How would that work in this situation? Would it be able to track the migration of the water?


Yes.

Tom


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

We definitely need more info on shower construction.


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## CharlieM (Aug 16, 2007)

The shower floor was sloped with cement mix, the walls and curb was covered with cement board. The floor and walls were then waterproofed with a commercial liquid membrane (can't remember the brand) typically used for outside fountains. All inside corners were reinforced with a mesh tape recommended by the waterproofing manufacturer. The tile contractor has used this waterproofing method on several showers for us and we've never had a problem.

Is it possible that the problem is the way the curb threshold was installed? The threshold was set before the wall tile and the wall tile sets on top of the threshold which creates a path for water to run between the threshold and wall tile and then is wicked into the drywall. The dampness is always just above the threshold, never lower.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Threshold under the wall tile is fine.

It looks to me like the moisture is higher than the threshold and migrating behind the tile. Is that the case? I have a feeling somebody forgot to bring the waterproofing to the job.

Don't rule out other things, either. What's above this bathroom, either directly or sharing that wall above? Maybe there's a leaky toilet, loose supply line or something above. Worth a look. And if it's an attic, check the vent pipes, esp. any horizontal ones. Could be a joint didn't get glued and rain water is coming down and out.


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

liquid membranes if done right are great, however the chances of errors are also greater. Was it installed using the thickness gauge, was enough coats put on? Did installer damage membrane?


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## Rhode Island (Mar 24, 2015)

MarkJames said:


> Any pics of what's under the tile? Details of your method would be most helpful.
> 
> If it's bare cement board and regular grout, that looks like a lot of joints to permit water to get through the grout and get into the cement board like a sponge. It's got to go somewhere, not just straight down over the flange. Just a thought. I'll bet if you could look at the backside of that area, the cement board is probably soaked (if that's what's there).


Pretty much word for word what I was thinking. I bet the backer isn't waterproofed/sealed correctly.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

country_huck said:


> liquid membranes if done right are great, however the chances of errors are also greater. Was it installed using the thickness gauge, was enough coats put on? Did installer damage membrane?


Greater how?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Charlie,

Do you have any during pics?

Rob


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

*Difficult To Find Shower Leak*



TNTSERVICES said:


> Greater how?



Not getting proper thickness would be one, improperly cleaning substrate and not getting a good bond list could go on.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Greater how?


Correct thickness. With a fabric that's not an issue and provided you have correct overlap and/or sealant use, it's pretty fool proof. Liquids are also easier to damage prior to covering them with tile as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of liquids and use them more than fabric. Liquids are more experience required IMHO though.


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## CharlieM (Aug 16, 2007)

MarkJames,
It’s been a little over four years ago but I do remember the membrane applied to approximately 3’ above the shower floor. This bathroom is on the second floor with attic space above. The vent pipe is something I’ll look at but keeping in mind this wasn’t an issue prior to our renovation and we didn't alter the vent pipe.

TNTSERVICES,
I do not have any pictures during the tile work installation.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Did you grout or caulk the vertical/horizontal joints? From the below pic, it looks like you grouted and that could be causing your issue... when I zoom in, it looks like grout, or (no offense) not a very good caulk application...








Obviously tile won't show water issue, so the first materials that can wick will, hence the molding, and sheetrock... 

I doubt they are leaving the door open while showering and even if they did, the damage would go beyond where it looks like it is wicking... 

If you waterproofed as you say (which should be the whole wall and base BTW), then it comes down to the caulking IMHO... is it caulk or grout?

*


EDIT:* BTW, you did waterproof the curb right?...

.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

country_huck said:


> Not getting proper thickness would be one, improperly cleaning substrate and not getting a good bond list could go on.


The same could be said for fabric.

Not properly cleaning the substrate.
Not getting the proper over lap.
Not using the proper thinset.
Not using the proper trowel.
Not smoothing the surface properly.
Not handling corners properly.
Not rapping curbs properly.
Thin set allowed to skim.
Improperly mixing thin set.

I've seen fabric pull right off the thinset. I've seen tile pull off the fabric.

I guess I don't see it as greater, just different.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Any missing grout or cracks between grout and tile? ( 3rd tile up and over, maybe.) You'd be surprised how much water could enter the wall through a 1/4" gap.

how was cement board attached to threshold? Nailed then liquid membrane? How many coats of membrane? Did you tape between the drywall and cement board? spot membrane the nails before regular coats? I thinset over nails then membrane coats.

Any water pipe that could have had a trim nail in it at that spot?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Any missing grout or cracks between grout and tile? ( 3rd tile up and over, maybe.) You'd be surprised how much water could enter the wall through a 1/4" gap.
> 
> how was cement board attached to threshold? Nailed then liquid membrane? How many coats of membrane? Did you tape between the drywall and cement board? spot membrane the nails before regular coats? I thinset over nails then membrane coats.
> 
> Any water pipe that could have had a trim nail in it at that spot?


I thought it looked like some grout was missing, but the pic was too grainy to tell for sure.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

From my experience it always seems to be curb failure. The shower head always seems to blast water directly into the back corners of the shower. 

And you mentioned ''tile contractor''. I've caught tile guys red handed cutting and putting screws into the pan. I've witnessed major hackery of shower pans at curbs.

Can you cut a hole in the ceiling below to see if there is any damage to the floor? 

You sound like a stand up guy. Good Luck.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

KAP said:


> Did you grout or caulk the vertical/horizontal joints? From the below pic, it looks like you grouted and that could be causing your issue... when I zoom in, it looks like grout, or (no offense) not a very good caulk application...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I get the feeling a clearer version of this picture will tell the story.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

dsconstructs said:


> I get the feeling a clearer version of this picture will tell the story.


I guess we'll see when he responds...


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Big Shoe said:


> From my experience it always seems to be curb failure..


:thumbsup:


80% of the time curb failure. Drywall guys that hang the cbd also like to nail through pan liners. 10% there is grout missing or 10% threshold/wall missing liner corner


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Maybe that pic is deceiving, but that floor looks low in the corner. (I realize it could be the corner wall tile out of plane to give that look.)

Makes you wonder about the pan, the transitions, the whole thing. If so, it wouldn't be the first time a good tiler put a new guy on a job and he bypassed some fundamentals.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Rhode Island said:


> I bet the backer isn't waterproofed/sealed correctly.


I'd bet there are millions of showers with not waterproofed cbu behind the tile that don't have a problem.

The problem here clearly, is brushing their teeth in the shower.....


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## CharlieM (Aug 16, 2007)

KAP,
I’m not sure what vertical / horizontal joints your referring to.
As I recall the curb was waterproofed up, over and down the outside.
Sometimes Fotki resizes the pictures. I’ll see if I can post a picture when I get in the office on Wednesday.

Olzo55,
No missing grout
I wasn’t on site during the entire installation and I don’t remember how the curb was treated.
No water pipes near the trouble area. I cut the wall open and checked.

Big Shoe,
This leak is on the same wall as the shower head. Any spray would be deflecting off the person showering.
I could cut a hole in the ceiling but it’s a lot of ceiling to paint if I couldn’t match the paint. 

Thanks for all the responses,
Charlie


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## Builders Inc. (Feb 24, 2015)

Did you caulk around fixtures after they were installed by the plumber after you were done with tile? If its on the same wall as the shower head it could be coming from the fixtures having a poor seal around the tile. And we never grout around interior corners. always use caulk.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

CharlieM said:


> KAP,
> I’m not sure what vertical / horizontal joints your referring to.
> As I recall the curb was waterproofed up, over and down the outside.
> Sometimes Fotki resizes the pictures. I’ll see if I can post a picture when I get in the office on Wednesday.
> ...


Vertical and horizontal means where the joints meet (i.e. - corners)... is it caulk or grout?...

.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KAP said:


> Vertical and horizontal means where the joints meet (i.e. - corners)... is it caulk or grout?...
> 
> .


Plane changes?


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## Builders Inc. (Feb 24, 2015)

I hope we can check off the obvious and hope you used non sanded grout for the small joints on the wall... Just sayin... sanded in a 1/8" joint? :blink: Totally not trying to discredit your work but I'm just trying to cover all the bases.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Builders Inc. said:


> I hope we can check off the obvious and hope you used non sanded grout for the small joints on the wall... Just sayin... sanded in a 1/8" joint? :blink: Totally not trying to discredit your work but I'm just trying to cover all the bases.


Those look at least 1/8" joint. Regardless sanded nor unsanded grout isn't waterproof.


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## Knight-Builder (Feb 19, 2015)

Seeing as everyone else here has already given you sound advice as to possible water intrusion points in the tiling, I'll suggest not to rule out an issue with the plumbing just yet (though I hope for your benefit it is a surface/tiling issue).

A couple of things that stand out to me:

-the shower head is on the same plane as the problem, so water isn't being directly blasted at that corner of the install. This doesn't mean water penetration in that location is unlikely, just not as likely to cause an issue (assuming the pan an curb are directing any deflected water in the appropriate direction).

-there's a chance there could be an issue with the plumbing between the valve and the head, meaning it only arises when the shower's running. Enough to cause the wall issues you are seeing.

-in elaboration of the above point, water can travel a fair distance within a structure before showing itself as a problem. How many leaky roofs do you think show up inside perfectly in line with the point of intrusion from above? Moisture could simply be traveling as far as it has to to show you there's a problem (it wont show up on the tile itself). It may be that the water has travelled down so far as it hits a horizontal member and then traveled to the left, all within the wall assembly.

Again, I'm not saying this is the definite cause, but never rule out the pipes that carry the stuff there in the first place. Good for you for standing by your word and warranty though, and good luck with getting it remedied.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

A simple test but perhaps of limited value: snap a pic of the water meter dials, don't run any water in the house for six hours, snap a pic of the water meter dials.

A gallon in three minutes can be heard in the pipes.

Somewhere in here
PDF] Moisture Movement (Wicking) within Gypsum Wallboard - Epa
oaspub.epa.gov/eims/eimscomm.getfile?p_download_id=446305‎
you may find numbers you can use to estimate how many gallons per day or week you are dealing with, and so figure the source of the leak.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

pull showerhead and replace with capped pipe. Turn on valve. Check wall through the hole you cut.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Assuming drywall is usually bone dry, the HO may be able to detect a remaining problem much sooner than a year by taping a clear plastic sheet to the wall in question.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

KAP said:


> Vertical and horizontal means where the joints meet (i.e. - corners)... *is it caulk or grout?...
> *
> .


I'm starting to wonder if the OP not answering this is telling us what the answer is... :whistling


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Charlie ...its likely the drywall extends under the tile , past the glass line and is wicking water... . if it were all below the curb I d say he folded the liner over and cut it without welding a corner patch...which likely could have happened also . forget fixing this with caulk of any type .


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