# primer issue



## cynthiann (Feb 12, 2006)

does good drywall work need primer? Two coats of good paint seem to be working well so far, but the issue has come up while interviewing with a builder.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

Builder's never want to pay for primer.
I believe all new drywall/joint compound needs to be primed.
I get tired of seeing paint failure's due to builders being cheapskates.


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## cynthiann (Feb 12, 2006)

What will happen if not primed?


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

All possibles:
flashing
stain bleed through
adhesion failure
multiple coats required for coverage

Read this.


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## johnjamesalaska (Dec 30, 2005)

If your final coat has a sheen to it you should use a primer. To fill the sponge (drywall/mud) with primer and not paint. Primer cost less than paint. It should. If it doesnt your paying to much. Primer for drywall that is. Blowes ... I mean lowes sells first coat by valspar for 40 bucks per five gallons. I get a drywall primer for 29 dollars at Rodda. If you use a paint with a glossy sheen you may end up with inconsistent sheen.


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## KENNEDY (Dec 8, 2005)

Using a quality primer also evens out the texture differences between the paper face and the finished joint on the drywall. As far as the price goes, my exterior primers cost just about the same as the paint, but the time I save on call backs after a couple of years is definately worth it. Quality materials = quality jobs, why do it half a$$ed?


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

cynthiann said:


> does good drywall work need primer?


Yes
Always
It's for adhesion purposes, among others

Just because the paint won't _always_ fail immediately on-primered drywall, that doesn't mean it doesn't need it



ProWallGuy said:


> I get tired of seeing paint failure's due to builders being cheapskates


Exactly
Hey, don't get me wrong
More work for me ya know
But telling the proud owners of a three years old home/remodel that the reason their paint is failing is that their builder hosed them on the paint job by not priming, it's just sad really
And now they are going to have to pay me extra to fix it


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## firemike (Dec 11, 2005)

I agree 100% with Slickshift - 

You can put two coats of paint on an old sh**wagon and it will look great - for a while. In the professional world, primers and not an option, but a necessesity for a proper job.


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## Harry (Oct 17, 2003)

Hi,

The real question is whether or not you need a PRIMER or a SEALER.

Simply using a primer does NOTHING to guarantee evenness of a coating.

Primers are used to fill in imperfections and have low resins, allowing finish coats to grab the primer.

Sealers are used to stop paint form being absorbed unevenly, allowing for an even finish. Sealers have high resins, low pigment.

There is a big difference between primers and sealers and every painter should know this.

Now, if ya go with a good PVA primer/sealer...you should be golden...

Thanks.
Harry


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## cynthiann (Feb 12, 2006)

Wow, thanks guys. I'm glad I learned this early on. I'll get after my builder to spring for a prime/seal. Will a good paint ever cover well enough in 1 coat after sealing? We deal with SW.

thanks again...love this site,
cindy


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

cynthiann said:


> Will a good paint ever cover well enough in 1 coat after sealing?


No
There's no such thing as a true one-coat paint

If there was, we'd be all over that
:laughing:

well, you may be able to "get away with" one coat at times, but it is "getting away with" it, and all that that implies
It'll also be in a sort of "looks OK" sort of way rather than "just like the swatch" way


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## cynthiann (Feb 12, 2006)

OK, so that leads to the next question or questions...

can have my primer tinted?...so as not to have to put on a 'primary prime/seal' coat?...and/or should I be charging a little more for a primary coat. I'm in KY and I think 1.25 /sf is pretty good for our quality. I'm thinking a coat of seal would take about 4 hours more per thousand/sf. 

Again, new here and thanks espesially to slick for the feedback.


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## rhythm-method (Feb 7, 2006)

*brand of primer?*

Hey all

Cynthiann, you read my mind in tinted primers. What do the pros think? I have had really mixed results - some great, some nightmares.

Also, is there a particular brand of primer/sealer you would recommend over the others? I have used BM Fresh Start over the years with some pretty good results. Is there a more "pro-oriented" brand I should be looking for?

Cheers,
Graeme


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

cynthiann said:


> can have my primer tinted?...


Sure
I don't
Maaaaybe I might go gray with some of those deep colors...maybe
Really SWP Deep Accents kinda blows the need for that, BM maybe I'd grey up the primer on a deep red or something

Other than that I don't see the point, unless you're trying to only do one color coat (top coat)

Besides, once it's tinted, I can't use it on any other projects, like my house
 



cynthiann said:


> so as not to have to put on a 'primary prime/seal' coat?...


I'm not sure where you're going with that...
New Drywall I tend to use a primer/sealer or plain primer-tinted or not
That's one coat
Then two color coats
That's pretty standard



cynthiann said:


> and/or should I be charging a little more for a primary coat.


...than the color coats?
Yes, the primer coat always takes longer to apply, the top coats less


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

Hey Graeme, Nice Avatar!
:laughing: 

Fresh Start? For new drywall?
Yeah that should work, seems a little overkill to me
But I've found for new drywall the Pittsburg SpeedHide Primer/Sealer really kicks butt for a "contractor-grade" product
Really it holds up to the best I've used for non-problem new drywall, and it's cheap
I know I'm always "cheap paints and tools don't save you money... blah blah...", but I really am a cheap bstrd
lol
I have been known to rinse out my tray and pot liners


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## CarlW (Feb 2, 2006)

ProWallGuy said:


> Builder's never want to pay for primer.
> I believe all new drywall/joint compound needs to be primed.
> I get tired of seeing paint failure's due to builders being cheapskates.


Well, I've been painting new construction homes for 20 years with 2 coats of flat, no primer. Sure, if the specs call for a washable paint, then that means the specs call for a primer. I'd sell the builder on a primer system too with the flat if I thought it would help but I just don't see a point in using the primer if we are topcoating with 9 buck a gallon garbage flat. But really my question is, how does the paint fail if no primer is used? I've never seen that.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

CarlW said:


> But really my question is, how does the paint fail if no primer is used? I've never seen that.


Carl, I mainly do wallpaper. That is where most of the paint failures I've seen have occured. I can prime over the garbage flat all day long, but when I install the paper, and it dries, it pulls on all the coats underneath. This is where I've seen paint pull off right down to the bare drywall. My primer don't do squat if the underlying layers aren't bonded well in the first place. I also do adhesion tests before hanging anything. Use a razor blade, and lightly cut an X into the paint, and lay a piece of masking tape on it. Yank it off, and if the paint comes off with it, the surface ain't stable enough for w/c.
The past 2-3 years, I've been priming garbage flat with Gardz or DrawTite, which seems to penetrate more and alleviate the problem. 
Read this article, it explains it nicely.


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## CarlW (Feb 2, 2006)

ProWallGuy said:


> Carl, I mainly do wallpaper. That is where most of the paint failures I've seen have occured. I can prime over the garbage flat all day long, but when I install the paper, and it dries, it pulls on all the coats underneath. This is where I've seen paint pull off right down to the bare drywall. My primer don't do squat if the underlying layers aren't bonded well in the first place. I also do adhesion tests before hanging anything. Use a razor blade, and lightly cut an X into the paint, and lay a piece of masking tape on it. Yank it off, and if the paint comes off with it, the surface ain't stable enough for w/c.
> The past 2-3 years, I've been priming garbage flat with Gardz or DrawTite, which seems to penetrate more and alleviate the problem.
> Read this article, it explains it nicely.


Okay, well that makes sense. I took paint failing to mean paint peeling off the walls or something. I would prime then, but I don't think anyone is hanging wallpaper in the homes I paint, are they? How is the wallpapering business doing these days?


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

CarlW said:


> Okay, well that makes sense. I took paint failing to mean paint peeling off the walls or something.


I have to add this. 3 times in the past 5-6 years, I have encountered massive paint failures in which no w/c was involved. First one was in a 5 yr old house, painted builders flat. We screened the walls, and applied 2 coats of BM Regal Matte. 2 days later, small cracks appeared, and curled up from the wall, about the shape of a quarter. When picked at, whole sheets of paint 4' X 4', would peel off, down to bare drywall. It only stuck at the raw tape seams. It was obvious that it failed because it was painted over when very dusty. You could rub your hand on the back of the paint and your hand would be covered with drywall dust. I ate the cost on that one. That job made me add a clause to my contract which saved my butt on the last 2.
These were up high, on vaulted walls, and ceilings. same fialure, only not as big. I really can't be certain why they failed, only assume it got hot and dry up there, and eventually the bond crumbled and failed.



CarlW said:


> I would prime then, but I don't think anyone is hanging wallpaper in the homes I paint, are they?


Maybe, maybe not. Who knows what they do 5, 10 years down the road.



CarlW said:


> How is the wallpapering business doing these days?


So-so. I make a better living at the high-end niche stuff, some commercial, and mural stuff. If I didn't paint, I'd be struggling.


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

Good discusion
I'd just like to comment on


CarlW said:


> Well, I've been painting new construction homes for 20 years with 2 coats of flat, no primer....I've never seen that.


You wouldn't see it doing new construction
Ever
That's my point
You'd have to have been doing re-paints/wall-coverings for the last 20 to see it


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## cynthiann (Feb 12, 2006)

hmmmm. Are we sure it's not the excess dust that causes the problems, or the lack of primer? I spend an entire day de-dusting a house before I start.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

cynthiann said:


> hmmmm. Are we sure it's not the excess dust that causes the problems, or the lack of primer? I spend an entire day de-dusting a house before I start.


It could be one, or the other, or both.


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## CarlW (Feb 2, 2006)

slickshift said:


> Good discusion
> I'd just like to comment on
> 
> You wouldn't see it doing new construction
> ...



I didn't mean that I've been doing ONLY new construction for 20 years, LOL!

I have got to make some money too ya know, and the money ain't in new construction and we all know that. What I do really is paint for a few builders and then I do go back into a lot of those homes years later to do custom painting. I also do repaints in a lot of tract type homes painted originally by complete hackers. Believe me, I see clearly that those paintjobs are terrible....the walls are rougher than a piece of 60 grit, sags all over the place, nothing is backrolled, etc., but they don't peel and the paint hasn't failed. That's why I asked the question. I've never seen it...maybe I've just been lucky.


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

CarlW said:


> I didn't mean that I've been doing ONLY new construction for 20 years, LOL!


Ah, I see


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

cynthiann said:


> hmmmm. Are we sure it's not the excess dust that causes the problems, or the lack of primer?


That's a problem too
Those tend to peel like a banana right to the drywall, even if they are primed
You can see the primer on the "white" back of the colored "peel"


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## PlainPainter (Dec 29, 2004)

I hate it when painters don't prime! Sure it looks great, but several paint jobs later - and then you arrive, get a signed estimate - start painting, then suddenly the paint bubbles from the wall - it finally let go under the tension of the newly applied paint. And now the homeowner thinks you are the hack and doesn't understand about the adhesion failure because the original painter didn't prime. This happens much more often on exteriors, and I have all these crazy clients who think it's my responsibility to fix these repairs for free! And usually, if it wasn't me, it was another ethical contractor that bid the prior paint job on these homes and lost from a low-baller who skips steps. So why should an ethical painter have to correct the mistakes for free on a home that he lost the bid on previously, or at least an ethical comrade that lost.

-plainpainter


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## rservices (Aug 3, 2005)

new question
I acidently used indoor primer KILZ on my garage. 
what should I expect?? 

Im glad I only did 2 sides before I noticed, I start the house next week


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

You shouldn't have to correct those things. You should have a clause in your contract covering you from such failures. Show the customer how your coating has adhered properly to the previous coatings, but that they have failed, which would then make the problem fall under another contract provision "unforseen circumstances" and would then be charged at the proper rate.


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

rservices said:


> new question
> I acidently used indoor primer KILZ on my garage.
> what should I expect??
> 
> Im glad I only did 2 sides before I noticed, I start the house next week


If the walls were clean, you shouldn't have any major trouble from the Kilz. It's just not a preffered product tor the most part. It's a decent primer, but it doesn't kill stains or adhere AS good as some of the other stuff that's available.


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## firemike (Dec 11, 2005)

PlainPainter said:


> I hate it when painters don't prime! Sure it looks great, but several paint jobs later - and then you arrive, get a signed estimate - start painting, then suddenly the paint bubbles from the wall - it finally let go under the tension of the newly applied paint. And now the homeowner thinks you are the hack and doesn't understand about the adhesion failure because the original painter didn't prime. This happens much more often on exteriors, and I have all these crazy clients who think it's my responsibility to fix these repairs for free! And usually, if it wasn't me, it was another ethical contractor that bid the prior paint job on these homes and lost from a low-baller who skips steps. So why should an ethical painter have to correct the mistakes for free on a home that he lost the bid on previously, or at least an ethical comrade that lost.
> 
> -plainpainter


I had the same thing happen last week. Repainted a wall in a restaurant and it developed two large (5" x 8") bubbles in it. Didn't remember seeing them when I started so I let them dry. Showed the owner, peeled them off, and on the piece I removed, you could see the coat I just put on, and it looks like one thick coat or two thin coats of an off white. 

The wall under the bubble appeared to be drywall mud, so i wet my finger and rubbed in on the wall, and sure enough, it pasted up easily. Bare drywall mud, it was a taped seam. The owner advise that they had had the wall built a year or so ago. I poked around alittle more and there is no evidence of any primer on the wall above the drop ceiling either. 

Personly I always prime/seal when the situation calls for it. I guess I have never been one of the "good enough" types


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