# Labor Only to rope a house..



## curranelectric (Sep 25, 2007)

Had a Home Owner that is building a custom home that is 2 story 3300 sq/ft ask if I would be interested in wiring his house and he will supply all materials and install all boxes in place, and extra labor. He sid he will do all the grunt work like drill studs and crawling around under home if needed. All I have to do is run wire from main to boxes, make sure all 3 and 4 ways are done, Hot Test, and tell him if there is any thing needed to code. He said his cheapest bid is $3700.00 as of now. I'm in Calif if that helps. Can anyone tell me if that sounds far?


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

Not for that big a house. Keep in mind that you will spend more time than you think waiting for him/coaching him to do the aforementioned grunt work. He sounds like one of them frugal types who is going to nickle and dime you. Why on earth would he want to skimp on the only part of the job that could kill him if it's F'd up?


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Curran, this is a very typical thing to be asked. I, like most guys, tell the customer flat out *NO*, I do NOT work that way. 
Everything you described is textbook cheapskate. If not that then misinformed bozo is a good term. 
Folks think they can _"install all the boxes", "do all the grunt work", "drill all the holes"_ and the kicker _"provide all the material"_. Strikes 1..2..3...and..4!
I can't tell you how may times I have heard these exact statements. 

You have no idea what it takes to "coach" someone totally green how to wire a whole house. You will definitely have as much time in this job as if you did the whole thing. 

The fact that he is looking for the lowest bidder is even WORSE!


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

You must be out of work to consider such a proposition. If that job were in Oklahoma, it would also be illegal unless you are present all the time, watching him while he pulls wire.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

My take is different. If you need the work do it. Write your contract very carefully. You should be able to rope it in in 3 days, 4 tops. Clearly spell out that you are contract labor, he is the responsible party. Don't do permits for him.

A day or two before you rope, mark all the hole locations on the stud faces with a sharpie. Make sure all the boxes are installed and all the holes are drilled prior to starting. You could put a $2 per hole penalty in the contract for every marked hole not drilled. If handled correctly you should be able to get the trim work when he finds he's overwhelmed with all the other stuff he must do to finish the project. You should be able to supply labor only for the price of labor and materials.


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## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

I think you carazy if you do it that way for that price. Tell him your normal rate is $10k for a house that size if you turnkey the job, $15k if he really insists that he does some of the work.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

thom said:


> A day or two before you rope, mark all the hole locations on the stud faces with a sharpie.


Where's the "savings" in that?

He will be "on-site" doing layout type work for .....free?


Run.....run and never look back.
The HO is trying to be frugal now.....wait until it is time to settle up and see what you get.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

NO WAY!!! Homeowners have no idea of the costs of a business. If you are considering this, maybe you do not either. NEVER work for someone that is flat out looking for the cheepest price. How can you tell him how much your labor will be if you do nto know if he is even going to have it "boxed" to code. 

The only way to word your contract is: " X$/ hr. To be paid in full when rough is complete." 

Sound like this IS one of those jobs. FLEE, RUN!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Personally I don't see anything wrong with the scenario except for friday pointed out and that's doing it T&M. Doing it fixed cost would be out right silly if not just plain dumb, as stated for all the reasons everybody else aready said about the reality of what you will experience.

But, hell if he agrees to T&M, just spell it all out, spell out your mark-up for materials you end up supplying and go for it. The balls in your court, I'd even suggest writing it that you get paid at the end of each day.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I guarantee you that you'll have the following problems, among others:

1) Boxes in the wrong places
2) Too shallow of boxes
3) boxes at odd heights
4) Not enough boxes
5) counter receptacle boxes improperly spaced
6) Holes not drilled within the centers of the studs
7) missing bored holes
8) wire run in curly que's
9) not enough home runs
10) wrong wire gauge to certain places

I'd do one of three things, depending on how much I liked or disliked this person
1) bid it like a normal job, and totaly forget that he's doing anything. if he does some stuff, bonus for you
2) bid it like he wants, with contract language that you drop to time and material for anything he promised to do that was done wrong or not done at all
3) do it straight time and material, but maybe farm it out.

Like Speedy says, this is pretty much textbook for a cheapskate GC. This isn't the type of person you can build a business on.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Maybe my state is the only one this would be illegal in, I guess the rest of you have a little less restrictions. A HO in Oklahoma may do his own wiring, plumbing, hvac, just whatever he takes a notion to try......but, he must follow code and have his work inspected. This applies only to a HO occupying the home, so the bottom line here is a new home, under construction, is off limits by strict definition. And further, if caught pulling wire and not even making the connections, he would be cited for not being at least an apprentice working under a journeyman on site. Anyone else have similar laws?


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

Ours here in BC are similar, a HO can wire his own home. One job I am familiar with, I was doing a bunch of construction, but not wiring, of course, the electrical inspector asked the HO all kinds of questions about why he had used this box, or that marrett, or this device, or that gauge wire. All to make sure that it was, in fact, the HO doing the work and not some hack fly-by-nighting on the HO's permit.


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## carjam (Apr 12, 2007)

*Run...*

and run fast. I just went to a job last week. 24x26 garage detached from the house. Customer wanted a sub-panel 100 amp and a recep every 3rd stud space. I gave him a price and he pooped himself. He wanted to run all the wire do all the boxing and hang all the fixtures. Wanted me to give him a price to tie down receps and terminate sub-panel feeders. I doubled my price and looked him straight in the face when I told him. He says "why 2x as much?" I told him I have to pull the permit and my insurance is on the line...who are you gonna sue when you drive that romex staple too tight? yourself?.....I'm thinking the guy who pulled the permit!! Haven't heard back yet. whew:clap:


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Show of hands:
Who has heard the term "Hook-ups"?
As in _"I'll do all the (easy) grunt work and I'll have an electrician do all the "hookups"_.
Like tying into the panel is the hard part. :whistling

Don't cha love it! :w00t:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Anybody remember Seinfeld when George lost his keys, contracted with the guys from the city to dig up the asphalt, too expensive, tried another route still too expensive, finally paid the city guys to let him do the work with their tools? What happened? Disaster!! Moral of the story (It was funny on Seinfeld) but this could be you.

The show about nothing actually taught me something


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## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

Ask th HO if he would like to go to a surgeon that would just quarterize the wounds and sew him up after a do it yourself vasectomy.


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## Bubbles (Sep 27, 2007)

*Hourly and daily*

I would charge hourly. Show up in morning and mark and instruct. Take off and go make some money somewhere else. Show up next day and see what they screwed up and instruct again. Repeat as necessary and make sure you get paid daily. Don't put your name on any permits as well.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Bubbles said:


> Don't put your name on any permits as well.


That would illegal here in NJ....possibly elsewhere also.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Celtic said:


> That would illegal here in NJ....possibly elsewhere also.


Wouldn't it just go against the general for allowing the HO to wire his own house?


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Sparky Joe said:


> Wouldn't it just go against the general for allowing the HO to wire his own house?


What if there is no general?

I am seeing less and less "real" general contractors lately. Either the carpenter or the H-O act as the general in most cases, but rarely an official GC.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

You guys must be reading a different post than I.

Nowhere does it say the homeowner asked for the electrician to pull a permit. The contract must reflect that the homeowner is the electrical contractor (his own home) and hiring the electrician as experienced labor.

Nowhere does it say the homeowner is going to pick the location of the boxes. The electrician should mark the locations and heights.

The homeowner is hiring someone to rope it in, the homeowner will be the green laborer.

We've all had green laborers. We show them how to install boxes. We show them how to drill in the center of studs. We rope the house but they do a lot of the grunt work. This sounds exactly like what the post says. The homeowner expects the contractor to mark the location of boxes, and holes. The owner will nail up the boxes and drill the holes. Pulling rope, with a green laborer, in a 3,300 square foot house can't take more than 3 or 4 days, should only take two. 

Then, there's the $ for add-ons. Phone, Coax, Alarm. It looks to me like he could charge full price and not supply any materials. 

The liability is all in the contract. The contract must spell out that the homeowner is hiring labor to install the romex, nothing more. As long as the romex is properly installed, there is no problem.

The contract can cover all the headaches spelled out. If the holes are in the wrong places, have him redrill and add a service charge. If the boxes aren't installed as marked, add a service charge. If the boxes are installed crooked, add a service charge. Put in something like $5 per box to reinstall, hole to drill etc. Be creative, there's a way to make money here.


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

In the olden days I would have done it.

You could rope it in a day, instruct him on stapling and make it up the next (leaving the recepticals for him to do).

Make sure your name is not on it though.


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## excellencee (Feb 1, 2007)

I've had HO try to supply their own materials before. Who eats the time when they buy what the "master electrician" at Home Creepo tells them they need instead of what materials you specify? Or they think a 1000 foot spool of 14/2 is too much wire so they buy a 250 to wire the whole house? How about the $2 dimmers they bought off ebay that don't work but they expect you to replace for free because you installed them? I would only work straight time with no warrenty on any materials. No I take that back, I'd run.


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## jbelectric777 (Jun 1, 2007)

Kind of like going to the diner with your own ground beef and order a hamburger. If you get sick, who is at fault ? Lawyers love this kind of stuff and litigation is expensive. Run like the others said, protect your reputation,license,business and liability (which may even state you cannot do what they are asking) I'll have to check the NJUCC but a homeowner in this state must do all the work, they cannot hire any sub contractors, and if you go in to it, you need a permit which makes you responsible for the whole job, you MUST have a permit for all your work, if you dont the board of examiners can sanction or even fine you... " JUST SAY NO !"


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

So he wants a cheaper bid than $3700? house could have a 100 can lights. you could end up making about $200 a day. I have just bid on rough before and took off the finish trim, for cheap customers.

But your losing profit by having the customer by the material. Especially if he ends up paying more money for something you can get cheaper. He just gave away your money. I know home depots prices are sometimes twice the price on recessed cans than what i pay.

Just walk away from this.


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## idoelectric (Jun 24, 2007)

I would've already wished him luck and walked away from this. It's been a disaster from the beginning. This guy has been bs'ing you from the beginning. He's going to get all the materials, ya sure. He's going to have his own people pulling the wires, No he's not, you'll spend more time fixing it by yourself. Someone else quoted $3700.00, from where? Neverland?!?
Your chances of coming out on top with this guy is slim to none. There are times when you will have to say no to move in a positive direction. Let someone else take it.


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