# Not Tied Off



## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

reggi said:


> I don't disagree, but roofing is the most deadly construction trade and attaching yourself with a rope to the top of the building basically solves the problem with dying. The danger is readily mitigated but people don't do it because it's too much hassle.


Agreed, my last response was a follow up to yours about the roofer


Mike


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

Kingcarpenter1 said:


> Agreed, my last response was a follow up to yours about the roofer
> 
> 
> Mike


Gotcha


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## RacinMason (Oct 26, 2017)

That roof looks like a 5/12 pitch? If it was a 10/12 pitch, yea they better tie off.


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## Platesurfer (Feb 9, 2019)

Falling in fall arrest is no fun either... And more likely to happen on a low slope like that. Better have a rescue plan, better make sure that rope is adjusted properly and the harness worn perfectly. Better not have anything in your pockets, better have that anchor point in the perfect spot all the time. Hope you don't swing through a window and slice an artery. 

Fall arrest or not you go on that roof you'd better have your wits about you and watch your step. Goofs with no relevant experience love preaching how important that damn rope is but it's not that straightforward. 

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## RacinMason (Oct 26, 2017)

Platesurfer said:


> Falling in fall arrest is no fun either... And more likely to happen on a low slope like that. Better have a rescue plan, better make sure that rope is adjusted properly and the harness worn perfectly. Better not have anything in your pockets, better have that anchor point in the perfect spot all the time. Hope you don't swing through a window and slice an artery.
> 
> Fall arrest or not you go on that roof you'd better have your wits about you and watch your step. Goofs with no relevant experience love preaching how important that damn rope is but it's not that straightforward.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


I agree...I would rather see a competent guy on a 10/12 than a goober on a 4/12


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

The worst thing about you "freedom freaks" is you dooming yourself to be an ittity-bitty contractor forever. You'll never, ever, see a contract with General Motors or any other large professional organization who has done the math and know that sending men back to their families healthy at the end of the day is not only the right thing to do, it's the most cost effective.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

Roofing sucks.

Bringing up new help on fall arrest isn't that difficult if the culture is in place. It's a lot more of a challenge getting compliance from those who have been at it for a while and haven't had the culture instilled in them.

So looking at the photos we see that safety equipment has been provided and its use is being feigned. OSHA doesn't care, it's on the employer. Why? Because as an employer in our capitalist system, you are making a profit off the backs of your labor and you are responsible for their safety. That's the black and white argument.


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## RacinMason (Oct 26, 2017)

Better let them finish or your roof might leak.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

The bottom line is that if someone gets hurt OSHA will fine you to death, and your insurance costs will increase dramatically. Spend the hundred bucks on a fall arrestor, it's several orders of magnitude cheaper.


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## JoeStanton (Sep 24, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> The worst thing about you "freedom freaks" is you dooming yourself to be an ittity-bitty contractor forever. You'll never, ever, see a contract with General Motors or any other large professional organization who has done the math and know that sending men back to their families healthy at the end of the day is not only the right thing to do, it's the most cost effective.


Are you actually comparing a small roofing company to GM? I'm all about safety but there are times it just doesn't make sense. Framing a house I'm not wearing a harness framing 2nd floor walls. 3 point of contact on a ladder means you can't carry anything up a ladder.

I have all the proper equipment and we make the call depending on what we are doing. As far as an ittity-bitty contractor how many guys you have? I have no problem being a small company I go nuts having 4-6 guys. Let me guess your condo association went with the low bid? Everyone can sit in their recliner and point at how others are doing something wrong.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

JoeStanton said:


> Are you actually comparing a small roofing company to GM? I'm all about safety but there are times it just doesn't make sense. Framing a house I'm not wearing a harness framing 2nd floor walls. 3 point of contact on a ladder means you can't carry anything up a ladder.
> 
> I have all the proper equipment and we make the call depending on what we are doing. As far as an ittity-bitty contractor how many guys you have? I have no problem being a small company I go nuts having 4-6 guys. Let me guess your condo association went with the low bid? Everyone can sit in their recliner and point at how others are doing something wrong.


No, I'm not making a comparison between anyone here and GM. What I'm saying is that if you are successful here and you grow and the local GM plant needs new concrete for a front end alignment machine, you aren't qualified to bid if your EMR (Experience Modification Rate) is too high. If you were on the qualified bid list and your EMR gets too high, off you go. 

So go ahead tough guys. Enjoy that free fall on the way down. Needlessly endanger your loyal good employees. You're never getting much larger, thankfully.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

Stay small, enjoy the fall.

Get enormous, help GM pour this.



My philosophy is safety first, unless you’re behind schedule.


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## JoeStanton (Sep 24, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> No, I'm not making a comparison between anyone here and GM. What I'm saying is that if you are successful here and you grow and the local GM plant needs new concrete for a front end alignment machine, you aren't qualified to bid if your EMR (Experience Modification Rate) is too high. If you were on the qualified bid list and your EMR gets too high, off you go.
> 
> So go ahead tough guys. Enjoy that free fall on the way down. Needlessly endanger your loyal good employees. You're never getting much larger, thankfully.


So how many employees do you have? Simple question Mr safety who runs a conglomerate. I don't needlessly endanger anyone, just make a educated decision on the situation at hand. Just because osha says I have to doesn't make it gospel. I have never had a claim in 16 years and my EMR would be zero.


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## Half-fast Eddie (Aug 21, 2020)

Kowboy said:


> all I can think of is Pedro's "ka-wompf" and bounce when he lands in my flower bed.


So if he doesn’t fall in the flowers it’s ok? 

Joke. I agree with you. I think what you should have done was call the pres of the condo board and ask if the roofer provided proof of insurance that indemnified the association.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Odd that this is coming from someone who walks away from plumbing leaks he caused
Don’t think GM would like it if you did that at their facility


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## RacinMason (Oct 26, 2017)

rrk said:


> Odd that this is coming from someone who walks away from plumbing leaks he caused
> Don’t think GM would like it if you did that at their facility


Or lead GM to this thread! I'm sure they would be interested


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

Kowboy, I suspect you are the best sink guy around. But don't belittle the rest of us.
When I was a window guy, (Itty bitty, ya know) my client list was the USDA, Boulder County, Larimer County, City of Fort Collins, Colo State University, and more that I can't recall offhand. 
When I'd do those jobs, we'd tie off on flat roofs, cuz that was the game. I can play it. Don't want to.

If I wanted to be big deal commercial, I could've. I knew which choices to make. 
I made my choices. I'm doing fine. 
In the past 5 years I've done work for a billionaire, and the federal government. 
Billionaire job is over. The fed is my only client now. And I'm still billing out at $135/hr plus trip charge, for stupid simple work. And I'm just a guy with a cordless drill and a pickup truck.

Oh, and I don't live in a condo. I like freedom, and solitude. 



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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Kowboy, we both know that the likelihood that these guys are employees is slim to none. I'm sure somebody has paperwork that says they are covered. Possibly registered as "laborers" at a temp service then getting some extra cash on top.

My point is that why get yourself worked up about it, your countertop and sink insurance isn't going to go up over these roofers.


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## AllanE (Apr 25, 2010)

Young Construction Worker Dies in Fall from Roof - SUN News Report


DAVIE, FL – In 2018, federal workplace safety investigators cited a Pompano Beach roofing contractor who exposed its workers to the construction industry’s most lethal hazard, falls from elevation. OSHA determined that the company’s failure to heed that warning claimed the life of a 25-year-old...




sunnewsreport.com





The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that falls remain the leading cause of death in the construction industry, accounting for 368 fatalities in 2020, of which 39 happened in Florida.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

rrk said:


> Odd that this is coming from someone who walks away from plumbing leaks he caused
> Don’t think GM would like it if you did that at their facility


rrk:

That is a lie. I never "walked away" from a plumbing leak. Gross mischaracterizations aren't helpful.


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## RacinMason (Oct 26, 2017)

Kowboy won't be here today....he's over at the NASA launch site making sure any workers are tied off


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Deckhead said:


> I couldn't imagine being so bored in life that I fought crime one phone call at a time. I saw a guy jaywalking the other day, mother ****er needed fined. You even think about running a red light? Kowboy has the sheriff on speed dial. Go ahead and take someone's mail, that's a federal offense and my boy the Kowboy will have you tossed in the clink by giving a ring to the DOJ.



...or tattling on someone for a "meanie" post.

I'd call the post office if I saw someone stealing someone's mail. Pretty serious crime.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

First line defense for fall protection is footwear.

I get a new pair or haven't walked a 12/12 in awhile, I try them out on a 12/12 roof with an easy landing area if I fall.


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## Half-fast Eddie (Aug 21, 2020)

Deckhead said:


> I saw a guy jaywalking the other day, mother ****er needed fined.


True story. 1979 I’m on a business trip to Dallas for a convention, first time in town. Lunch time i leave the convention center downtown lookng for a place to eat. Traffic was light, so i crossed in the middle of the block. A Dallas PD stopped me asked to see my license, and threatened to give me a jaywalking ticket. I got a warning due to out of state visitor.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Kowboy said:


> Interesting statistics in your link. 39 white people died from falling at work in Florida;whites make up almost 62% of Florida's population.
> Hispanics make up almost 19% of Florida's population, yet had 32 people killed from falls at work.


State demographics does not tell the story.
What percentage of construction workers are white vs hispanic in Florida.
Nationwide it is 60% White and 30% Hispanic.
In Florida it is probably the inverse of that.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Anyone advocating that these workers do not need to tie off are simply not qualified contractors, they are hacks that do not respect the responsibility for human safety during construction activities.
Anyone stupid enough to work without tying themselves off deserves whatever fate they meet when they hit the ground. 
Anyone that thinks they are cool or brave for not tying off are imbeciles.
Anyone willing to trade their life for a roof project, obviously does not have much to live for.
If these dotards are working on a property that the OP has a financial interest in, it would be neglect and stupidity to not call them on it and get it corrected before they are the ones left with the bills when the dotard falls three stories and sues the building owners.
It's people with no assets to protect and nothing to live for that advocate it's ok to let it happen.
So a quick read of this thread will expose the fakes and unqualified "contractors" to the rest of us.


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

The problem isn't the dude that chose to not tie off. The problem is our system that allows anyone to sue the property owner for his choices.

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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Also known as personal responsibility


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

Personally, I do not tie off.

Of course, I am very picky as to the roofs I choose to reroof. 5 or 6/12. Single story.

I do have a SRL That I have used on steep roof repairs, but rarely.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

hdavis said:


> First line defense for fall protection is footwear.
> 
> I get a new pair or haven't walked a 12/12 in awhile, I try them out on a 12/12 roof with an easy landing area if I fall.











Cougar Paws ™ Official Site Roofing Boots and Tools


Get a Grip! Take a close look at the #1 roofing boot in the USA! We specialize in traction boots, tools and accessories for roofers, appraisers and others in the industry who demand only the best in grip, traction and comfort. Whether you’re a contractor, insurance adjustor or estimator, we know...




www.cougarpaws.com




These are awesome.
The ones for shingles have replaceable foam rubber soles and the steel walker's have magnets in them. Soles are not replaceable in them though.

The shingle boots are good up to a 12/12,

I've used my steel walker's on a 7/12 and probably wouldn't push it beyond that without some jacks.

Same with the shingle variety, over an 8/12 I want jacks on the bottom


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

hdavis said:


> Residential roofing companies had 29 fatalities.


Doesn't that seem like 29 to many?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Pounder said:


> Doesn't that seem like 29 to many?


Probably not.

I don't view 0 as a valid goal. 29 isn't really even a blip on the personal risk radar. Working alone, I'd completely ignore that number, and do.


There are some medical conditions I wouldn't step onto the first rung of a ladder.

If you're having balance issues or ones that effect the way you move smoothly, mental focus issues. Don't go on a roof, tied off or not.


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## Get_the_sledgehammer (6 mo ago)

hdavis said:


> Residential roofing companies had 29 fatalities.


29 per day? Per month? And how many fall injuries?


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

*Roofing Deaths Decrease in 2020, but is One of Top 3 Deadliest Occupations*

The amount of roofing contractors dying as a result of workplace injuries has modestly decreased, according to the latest data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), but it is now one of the top three fatal occupations in the United States.
Data from the annual Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries shows that in 2020, 108 roofing contractors died as a result of a workplace injury. These deaths accounted for 2.2% of fatal workplace injuries in 2020. It’s a 2.7% decrease compared to last year’s data.
Falls continue to remain the main cause of death for roofing contractors. Of the 108 deaths, 80 of them were due to falls, slips and trips. The remaining 13 were due to exposure to harmful substances or environments. The total amount of deaths related to falls, slips and trips was 805, down from 880 in 2019. This means roofing accounted for 9.9% of all fatal falls in 2020. Sadly, one such incident in 2020 involved a 16-year-old roofer in Tennessee who fell approximately 160 feet to the ground.
"Exposure to fall hazards makes roofing work among the most dangerous jobs in construction. (The Occupational Safety and Health Administration) requires fall protection when working at heights greater than 6 feet," said OSHA Area Director Howard Eberts in Cleveland.
Even though there were fewer roofing deaths in 2020, roofing is still one of the deadliest occupations. The fatal work injury rate for roofers is 47 per 100,000 full-time equivalent (FTE) workers. By comparison, the average fatal work injury rate is 3.4 per 100,000 FTE workers. This means roofing’s fatality rate is 13 times higher than the average.
The only occupations more deadly than roofing in 2020 were fishing and hunting workers (132.1) and logging workers (91.7). “Helpers, construction trades” is after roofing with a rate of 43.3. The good news is that roofing’s fatal work injury rate is a 12.9% decrease from the previous year, which had a rate of 54.
The reason for the drop in roofing deaths is hard to pin down, but in examining other industries, the evidence points to the COVID-19 pandemic and its subsequent lockdowns as a cause. For instance, aircraft pilots and flight engineers had a fatal work injury rate of 61.8 in 2019, but in 2020, it dropped to 34.3. Travel bans and lockdowns no doubt played a role.
Roofing, like every other industry, took a hit in 2020, but after being deemed essential, got back to work. Construction deaths in general declined, with 1,008 happening in 2020, down from 1,061 in 2019.
Construction was the top industry sector for fatalities, followed by transportation and warehousing (805) and agriculture, forestry, fishing and hunting (511). This means of the overall 4,764 deaths that occurred in 2020, 21.1% of them were from construction.
The overall number of fatal workplace injuries in 2020 was recorded at 4,764, a 10.7% decrease from 2019. This is the lowest annual number since 2013. 
Work-related fatal injuries continue to rise among Hispanic and Latino workers. Data shows the number grew to 22.5% from 20.4% in the previous year. Black or African American workers had a 14.7% decrease in occupational fatalities compared to 2019.
The Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries does not track fatal workplace injuries complicated by an illness such as COVID-19. The BLS website states information on COVID-19-related fatalities is “inconsistent and often unavailable” and “out of scope for CFOI unless precipitated by an acute injury.”










Roofing Deaths Decrease in 2020, but is One of Top 3 Deadliest Occupations


Deaths in roofing decreased by 2.7% in 2020, but the industry has now become one of the three deadliest occupations in the United States.




www.roofingcontractor.com


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Get_the_sledgehammer said:


> 29 per day? Per month? And how many fall injuries?


Per year fall deaths


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I bet the building inspector gets up on Kowboys condo without a rope and harness. What's the rule for him.


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## RacinMason (Oct 26, 2017)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I bet the building inspector gets up on Kowboys condo without a rope and harness. What's the rule for him.


I know a building inspector that I guarantee will know the rules


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

They’re all lead men, getting ready to set an anchor for the rest of the guys. They just have a few things to do on the roof first.

Oh shoot, job’s done.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

reggi said:


> They’re all lead men, getting ready to set an anchor for the rest of the guys. They just have a few things to do on the roof first.
> 
> Oh shoot, job’s done.


You can say what you want but they better have their story straight when the osha inspector shows up 

If the inspector sits there for a minute watching them work without being tied off then the owner is screwed 


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Windycity said:


> You can say what you want but they better have their story straight when the osha inspector shows up
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Sure glad to live & work in an area of the world where Big brother isn't showing up on every job harassing hard working men.

I cracked a joke at the brick layers yesterday about the osha inspector. The comment was, let him come, we'll beat his ass all the way back to the end of the driveway. 

Before you get up in arms, the brick layer is like me, Sole proprietor with his son being full partner in the company with no employee's. So he can tell the inspector to pound sand.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Getting used to working with ropes and feeling unsafe without them are 2 completely different statements


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Joe Fairplay said:


> Only people who never wear these devices would say something like this.
> Very soon after using them, workers get to the point where they feel unsafe without them.
> Professionals are trained to use them and it becomes standard for them. It is without them that creates a slow down in production while also increasing the risk liability ten fold.


While I'm a proponent of people being taught to work roped up from the beginning, it's 100% not true that someone who has a lot of experience unroped can adjust to it well. Movement is very different.

I never really adjusted to it.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I feel most unsafe roped up.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

It's all about knowing when and where...


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Joe Fairplay said:


> Lets compare someone speeding on a public road that I have no interest in and compare it to workers not following basic safety protecalls on a building I am responsible for or have a financial interest in.
> 🤡 Clown Show 🤡


So you don't care if you auto insurance rates go up? Interesting


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

reggi said:


> ****ing roofers lol. They’re allergic to ropes.


Hmm...I'd like to read this guy's autopsy report. "He died of allergies."


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Hey "freedom lovers", how about trench boxes? Don't need no rope, don't need no stinkin' trench box. Buried over your head? Don't worry, your crew will probably dig you out in time. How about it?


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> Hey "freedom lovers", how about trench boxes? Don't need no rope, don't need no stinkin' trench box. Buried over your head? Don't worry, your crew will probably dig you out in time. How about it?


How's about you step away from the tacos and vodka? Go get some exercise. You're poor decisions and lack of self control are raising the cost of my health insurance. Oh, and your beloved condo on the coast. Move away from that coastline. I'm tired of footing the cost of rebuilding the damn thing every time you have a hurricane.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Platesurfer said:


> What do you do? Engineered horizontal lifeline until the trusses are braced well enough to support a load?


So you are climbing around on a truss set to install lat bracing to support the next truss and the set is not braced enough to support a load?
I'm starting to question if you ever actually set trusses before.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> Hey "freedom lovers", how about trench boxes? Don't need no rope, don't need no stinkin' trench box. Buried over your head? Don't worry, your crew will probably dig you out in time. How about it?


Why are you so butthurt bud? You knew the exact response you'd get before you even started this thread. That pic you posted looks to me like they are finished with that section, thats when the leaf blower usually comes out. I didn't see a picture of them actually working.

And tell us about the inspector....did he tie off? 
We both know they have to get up there in Florida and I have never once saw them with a harness on.

I'm typically for personal responsibility/ common sense myself. 

That said I have mandated fall protection more than a few times....jobsite and task dependant, it was protested but within 5' of a 3 story edge its kind of a no brainer. I wear them when I feel the need and more often than not I keep jacks in place in conjunction with my ropes along with appropriate footer.

Let me ask you...have you ever worked with a harness and had some other guy step on your rope? Good way to screw up an ankle or jab your back with the rope grab or d ring. Not to mention the mess of twisted spaghetti you end up with between the ropes and hoses. It can be minimized with s9me planning.

I do find it odd. That link you just posted is an outfit that set up an office in Ft. Myers after Irma, they were the ones who tried to convince me that I'd make money pulling tile and installing shingles for $40 a sq. They were insistent on fall protection, even for subs. I honestly wonder why that kid wasn't roped off. 

Then we go from fall protection to trench boxes ...polar opposites. Jesus Christ take a chill pill.


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## Half-fast Eddie (Aug 21, 2020)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Then we go from fall protection to trench boxes ...polar opposites.


No … really … it makes sense. If you wear a harness and rope while working in an unshored trench … they can just follow the rope to find the body.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Kowboy Karen


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> Hey "freedom lovers", how about trench boxes? Don't need no rope, don't need no stinkin' trench box. Buried over your head? Don't worry, your crew will probably dig you out in time. How about it?


That's a numb nuts post.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

This guy appears to have a flatbar, possibly pulling a few shingles to set anchors and load the roof could be a hammer and setting an anchor?

I can't tell if they are starting or finishing or wtf they are doing because of the limited view in the one photo we have been shown


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## RacinMason (Oct 26, 2017)

rrk said:


> Kowboy Karen


That's funny


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## 1982_Everton (Nov 8, 2020)

RacinMason said:


> That roof looks like a 5/12 pitch? If it was a 10/12 pitch, yea they better tie off.


Out of curiosity, can someone walk on a 10:12 pitch roof, especially while tearing-off a shingle roof with granules spread all over the roof? Personally, I cannot walk on a roof over 6:12. I see people walking on roof up to 8:12, but they are asking for trouble.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

hdavis said:


> That's a numb nuts post.


Every time I get an ad hominem attack as a response, I know my interlocutor has conceded the argument. Thanks.

And if the "Kowboy Karen" label is the price I pay for raising safety awareness and advocating for the dignity of construction workers, I'll wear it with pride. Thanks again.

Three on the roof today; all tied off:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Loose granules on a 12/12 will get you sliding. I had that happen early on on an old roof where it was loose before touching the shingles.

You do tear off so the grit stays off the deck.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> Every time I get an ad hominem attack


That's silly, there was no ad hominem there.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

1982_Everton said:


> Out of curiosity, can someone walk on a 10:12 pitch roof, especially while tearing-off a shingle roof with granules spread all over the roof? Personally, I cannot walk on a roof over 6:12. I see people walking on roof up to 8:12, but they are asking for trouble.


With cougar paws anyone can. 

Steeper stuff I like to put jacks on the bottom, nail 2x4 toe boards down about every 6-8'., then strip it down to the toe boards, run my synthetic from the top down. Repeat this process between all the toe boards.


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## RacinMason (Oct 26, 2017)

1982_Everton said:


> Out of curiosity, can someone walk on a 10:12 pitch roof, especially while tearing-off a shingle roof with granules spread all over the roof? Personally, I cannot walk on a roof over 6:12. I see people walking on roof up to 8:12, but they are asking for trouble.


I heard a 10/12 was the steepest anyone would ever want to walk on, and you better be in good shape and balanced. I've seen guys walk a 12/12 but they do it a lot. I never walked on anything that steep. I'm a mason and we would scaffold up the outside, build a walkway around the chimney, no way I'm working on shingles.
3 pumps on a barber's chair is high enough for me.


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

Don't forget to tie off yall.









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## letgomywago (12 mo ago)

That sucks for that guy but if he recovers enough to find humor again he can get the nick name Mr Larson.


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## A2Zcontracting (Jun 15, 2019)

Lettusbee said:


> Don't forget to tie off yall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jeeesus!! What are the chances? Not only to have a coworker break your fall half way down but then to drive 6 nails to the back of your dome while falling the rest of the way. Makes me wonder if he woulda been better off falling the whole way by himself. That's beyond crazy if it's legit.

Also, am I the only one that's kinda curious to get the make and model of that nail gun? That's some pretty serious driving power to set that many nails in a skull in rapid succession like that. Might be time to upgrade from my old porter/cable....

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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

We could have a rule against contact triggers on nail guns to prevent such injuries, but that would interfere with a man's right to have nails fired into his head and spine repeatedly.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

A2Zcontracting said:


> Jeeesus!! What are the chances? Not only to have a coworker break your fall half way down but then to drive 6 nails to the back of your dome while falling the rest of the way. Makes me wonder if he woulda been better off falling the whole way by himself. That's beyond crazy if it's legit.


I see what you mean. In addition to the nails, he could have drenched himself in acetone just beforehand, had it ignited by a coworker's cigarette on the way down, and having the flames extinguished by the dirt from the cave in of the excavation below that had no trench box.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> We could have a rule against contact triggers on nail guns to prevent such injuries, but that would interfere with a man's right to have nails fired into his head and spine repeatedly.


You could have that rule, but that would be stupid.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> We could have a rule against contact triggers on nail guns to prevent such injuries, but that would interfere with a man's right to have nails fired into his head and spine repeatedly.


We could have a rule that you have to put nail in with a banana also, and no steps, no cars, no ladders, no sharp instruments, no blunt objects, no pools or lakes


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Bump firing makes sense when you have good position and control. Having your finger on the trigger when you aren't nailing is a bad idea, and underlies a lot of these accidents. 

If you're in an awkward position, switch it off of bump fire.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Or the guy on the roof could have properly tied off and avoided the entire incident.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

🤷‍♂️


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Joe Fairplay said:


> Or the guy on the roof could have properly tied off and avoided the entire incident.


Kowboy linked to a fatality where the person was using a nail gun in bump fire in an awkward position with his nondominant hand. His first shot caused him to lose balance and he shot himself in the face.

No tie off involved.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

I saw lightning yesterday and threw my fist at the heavens and screamed, "No God! Why!? Someone somewhere could be killed!"

Then as I was cooking on my charcoal grill and saw the flame it donned on me that a little person as a child probably hid in a grill just like that one and was lit on fire.

Now, I sit in my room all day thinking of the horrors of the world and write shut letters to fake people and asking everyone to be safe... Oh no, what about VD???


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

hdavis said:


> Kowboy linked to a fatality where the person was using a nail gun in bump fire in an awkward position with his nondominant hand. His first shot caused him to lose balance and he shot himself in the face.
> No tie off involved.


Ya, well I was responding to the last post by Lettusbee's about the guy who fell off the roof and landed on the guy using the nail gun below who shot the guy while trying to save him. That would not have happened if he didn't fall off the roof to begin with.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

A&E Exteriors said:


> 🤷‍♂️
> 
> View attachment 533189


It is the workers responsibility to wear PPE.
Who has the responsibility to make sure that the worker does that?
🤡


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## mrcat (Jun 27, 2015)

A&E Exteriors said:


> View attachment 533189


Wtf, how does that guy get away with keeping his beard? 

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Joe Fairplay said:


> Ya, well I was responding to the last post by Lettusbee's about the guy who fell off the roof and landed on the guy using the nail gun below who shot the guy while trying to save him. That would not have happened if he didn't fall off the roof to begin with.


Except you replied to me, not him.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Joe Fairplay said:


> It is the workers responsibility to wear PPE.
> Who has the responsibility to make sure that the worker does that?
> 🤡


You gonna stand on site and hold a gun to someone's head? Bozo


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

it's not my responsibility to make sure anyone else is tied off.


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## A2Zcontracting (Jun 15, 2019)

A&E Exteriors said:


> View attachment 533189


Well there's the problem... the guy in charge is too busy leading a charge against Mario and Luigi. I mean he's literally trying to get plumbers killed! Leaving banana peels all over the jobsite and throwing turtle shells at everyone. No wonder people are getting hurt!










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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Deckhead said:


> I saw lightning yesterday and threw my fist at the heavens and screamed, "No God! Why!? Someone somewhere could be killed!"
> 
> Then as I was cooking on my charcoal grill and saw the flame it donned on me that a little person as a child probably hid in a grill just like that one and was lit on fire.
> 
> Now, I sit in my room all day thinking of the horrors of the world and write shut letters to fake people and asking everyone to be safe... Oh no, what about VD???


Deckhead:

You gonna put that new baby in a car seat?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Joe Fairplay said:


> Ya, well I was responding to the last post by Lettusbee's about the guy who fell off the roof and landed on the guy using the nail gun below who shot the guy while trying to save him. That would not have happened if he didn't fall off the roof to begin with.


I now see that, my bad.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

A&E Exteriors said:


> it's not my responsibility to make sure anyone else is tied off.


If they are your employees then you are responsible to make sure all of your employees are tied off 


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Windycity said:


> If they are your employees then you are responsible to make sure all of your employees are tied off
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm now an employee bud so there's that.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I think it's retarded. If you train, supply, and make it policy to wear the stuff....if some dipchit takes his rope off and you leave to do boss stuff. You get in trouble. So unless you stay there and watch them all day every day you're on the hook. Stupid.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Like J&L where the 25 year old kid died. They mandate fall protection, even for subs. They tried to get me to install for them after Irma. I declined their offer. Now it's somehow their fault a hardhead didn't follow policy and died. That's fukd.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> Deckhead:
> 
> You gonna put that new baby in a car seat?


You are really bad at analogies. Maybe keep writing geriatric p0rn.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I think it's retarded. If you train, supply, and make it policy to wear the stuff....if some dipchit takes his rope off and you leave to do boss stuff. You get in trouble. So unless you stay there and watch them all day every day you're on the hook. Stupid.


Yea well that is the responsibility you have by having employees on your job site, unfortunately when it comes to that you cannot be “cool“ with guys slacking off and not taking safety seriously 

It’s your responsibility to make sure they follow safety procedures and rules

If they get hurt your insurance pays for it regardless who is at fault 

I work for the railroad and 1/2 of managements job is to constantly watch and test us to ensure that we are following the rules set by the FRA and the company 

If I get hurt even by violating a safety procedures it’s the railroads responsibility to compensate me and pay for my injury. It doesn’t matter who is at fault the railroad is partially responsible 


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Windycity said:


> Yea well that is the responsibility you have by having employees on your job site, unfortunately when it comes to that you cannot be “cool“ with guys slacking off and not taking safety seriously
> 
> It’s your responsibility to make sure they follow safety procedures and rules
> 
> ...


Well, im not an employer so....
I'm saying if you get the training and sign that you are aware of the policies and have the equipment supplied....it shouldn't fall on the employer because someone knowingly breaks policy. I'm a fan of natural selection and some stuff is over regulated...this being one of those things.

Again. I'm now an employee and am required to tie off. So I will because I value my job and am not going to get myself fired over it.


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## Get_the_sledgehammer (6 mo ago)

Actually workers comp and disability retirement are out if injuries are due to not using ppe in some employment situations. I know of a guy who was in a bucket truck which was crashed into. He wasn't wearing a harness and was ejected resulting in debilitating back injury. Claims denied and employee fired.

Other than not wearing harness he did nothing wrong but that one choice had dramatic consequences.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

hdavis said:


> Except you replied to me, not him.


I replied to the thread, I did not cite your post.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

A&E Exteriors said:


> You gonna stand on site and hold a gun to someone's head? Bozo


So when someone on one of my jobsites doesn't tie off, gets hurt and I get sued, I will try this sure fire defense. Thanks for the advice.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

A&E Exteriors said:


> it's not my responsibility to make sure anyone else is tied off.


Of course it's not. You have never advanced enough in your career or station in life to be in that situation.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Wow.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Robie said:


> Wow.


I know, right. It's hard to fathom how a thread of professional contractors could possibly have 155 posts debating if tying off while on a three story roof was mandatory.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Joe Fairplay said:


> I know, right. It's hard to fathom how a thread of professional contractors could possibly have 155 posts debating if tying off while on a three story roof was mandatory.


You only read what you want to.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I was talking to a guy this weekend who just started roofing. $19 an hour, he only does tear off and site cleanup. He considers it good money for an easy job. One story buildings, may be a 6/12.

I started talking to him about tying off and his response was he wasn't scared being one story up.

Next time I see him, I'll try a different approach and see if I can get anywhere.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Joe Fairplay said:


> Of course it's not. You have never advanced enough in your career or station in life to be in that situation.





A&E Exteriors said:


> I'm typically for personal responsibility/ common sense myself.
> 
> That said I have mandated fall protection more than a few times....jobsite and task dependant, it was protested but within 5' of a 3 story edge its kind of a no brainer. I wear them when I feel the need and more often than not I keep jacks in place in conjunction with my ropes along with appropriatefootwear.
> 
> I do find it odd. That link you just posted is an outfit that set up an office in Ft. Myers after Irma, they were the ones who tried to convince me that I'd make money pulling tile and installing shingles for $40 a sq. They were insistent on fall protection, even for subs. I honestly wonder why that kid wasn't roped off.


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## BC Rollin (Oct 15, 2021)

🍿


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I'm typically for personal responsibility/ common sense myself.
> That said I have mandated fall protection more than a few times....jobsite and task dependant, it was protested but within 5' of a 3 story edge its kind of a no brainer. I wear them when I feel the need and more often than not I keep jacks in place in conjunction with my ropes along with appropriate footer.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Joe Fairplay said:


> View attachment 533218


I own 14 sets of fall protection for a reason.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I own 14 sets of fall protection for a reason.


Because 13 sets just isn't enough. Everyone knows that.


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## Remodelz (5 mo ago)

Joe Fairplay said:


> Anyone advocating that these workers do not need to tie off are simply not qualified contractors, they are hacks that do not respect the responsibility for human safety during construction activities.
> Anyone stupid enough to work without tying themselves off deserves whatever fate they meet when they hit the ground.
> Anyone that thinks they are cool or brave for not tying off are imbeciles.
> Anyone willing to trade their life for a roof project, obviously does not have much to live for.
> ...


I completely agree with Joe and Kowboy. The wanna be hacks that are too ignorant to follow a simple safety that could SAVE THEIR LIFE, aren’t the same professional contractors that some of us are. As business owners it’s our responsibility to our employees families to ensure they come home. Who wants to be the one to tell a wife that their husband is dead because the owner doesn’t lead by example. As an owner you must crack the whip when proper policies and procedures aren’t followed because ultimately the buck stops at you. Professional contractors do things in a professional fashion and that doesn’t just men quality workmanship. It’s every aspect of the business.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Remodelz said:


> I completely agree with Joe and Kowboy. The wanna be hacks that are too ignorant to follow a simple safety that could SAVE THEIR LIFE, aren’t the same professional contractors that some of us are. As business owners it’s our responsibility to our employees families to ensure they come home. Who wants to be the one to tell a wife that their husband is dead because the owner doesn’t lead by example. As an owner you must crack the whip when proper policies and procedures aren’t followed because ultimately the buck stops at you. Professional contractors do things in a professional fashion and that doesn’t just men quality workmanship. It’s every aspect of the business.


I'm not saying they are a bad thing. I however don't think an employer should be financially liable in the event they supply the equipment, train how to use it, and have signed off proof that their employee knows the rules and the policy, then however decides to untie themselves when left unsupervised. That's bs. 

Hell, working on an 8'stepladder you are required to tie off. I'd bet you or them never have though.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

And show me proof that the 3 amigos who are the subject of this thread are in fact w2 employees. We both know it's not likely


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Hell, working on an 8'stepladder you are required to tie off. I'd bet you or them never have though.


This is getting embarrassing.
There is no requirement to tie off when on a portable ladder. 
In fact, it would create a more dangerous work condition.
Portable ladders such as extension, A-frame or stepladders are freestanding and exempt from tie off rules for a reason. 
If a worker is tied off to a freestanding ladder and falls, the ladder would fall with the worker and potentially cause more injury.
OMG, you are so misinformed you are a danger to yourself and others around you.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

A&E Exteriors said:


> And show me proof that the 3 amigos who are the subject of this thread are in fact w2 employees. We both know it's not likely


Because everyone knows only W2 employees are required to follow safety protocol.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Joe Fairplay said:


> This is getting embarrassing.
> There is no requirement to tie off when on a portable ladder.
> In fact, it would create a more dangerous work condition.
> Portable ladders such as extension, A-frame or stepladders are freestanding and exempt from tie off rules for a reason.
> ...


Anything over 6 ft is a potential fatal fall and it you are doing something that requires not having 3 points of contact means you should be tied off. Now go do your paperwork or something.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Where did I say tie off to the ladder? Show me.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Let's talk about mobile and manufactured homes for a minute....seems how you say there is a difference that is not the date of manufacture.

Both of these labels are on the same park model in Florida. So which one is it actually?


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Hell, working on an 8'stepladder you are required to tie off. I'd bet you or them never have though.





Joe Fairplay said:


> So a quick read of this thread will expose the fakes and unqualified "contractors" to the rest of us.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Oh....now we're gonna dodge the question. 🤣🤣🤣
🖕😁🖕


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

None of this matters fellas. If the guys installing the roof follow the law 100%, can they pass a drug test? Are they legally employed? If not, a workers comp claim will be denied.

Behind every lawyer and HOA board is an Actuary. 





__





Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine






www.leg.state.fl.us


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Remodelz said:


> I completely agree with Joe and Kowboy. The wanna be hacks that are too ignorant to follow a simple safety that could SAVE THEIR LIFE, aren’t the same professional contractors that some of us are. As business owners it’s our responsibility to our employees families to ensure they come home. Who wants to be the one to tell a wife that their husband is dead because the owner doesn’t lead by example. As an owner you must crack the whip when proper policies and procedures aren’t followed because ultimately the buck stops at you. Professional contractors do things in a professional fashion and that doesn’t just men quality workmanship. It’s every aspect of the business.


Interesting to find out that for hundreds of years there weren't any professional contractors.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

WBailey1041 said:


> None of this matters fellas. If the guys installing the roof follow the law 100%, can they pass a drug test? Are they legally employed? If not, a workers comp claim will be denied.
> 
> Behind every lawyer and HOA board is an Actuary.
> 
> ...


I agree.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Joe Fairplay said:


> So when someone on one of my jobsites doesn't tie off, gets hurt and I get sued, I will try this sure fire defense. Thanks for the advice.


The point that continues to go over your over educated brain is this.... provided you have supplied the equipment, provided the training, and have the employee sign off on the proper documentation....you should not be held liable for them being stupid.

I doubt you have employees anyway. You have subs to limit your exposure to liability and because you probably aren't capable of doing the work. 

Stop pretending to be perfect because like everyone else you are far from it.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I agree.


This is precisely why the company is making me do 16 mandatory osha training courses so that if I decide to untie myself on a metal roof in the artic, fall, and break 2 legs an arm and a hip... they can simply point out my fancy certificate of completion and say, "well, he knew better, sucks to be him"


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health Doug Parker joined with Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador & Honduras leaders to launch Labor Rights Week 2022. The event discussed worker equity, workplace safety, wage theft & inclusion. #LaborRightsWeek #LaborWeek


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

A&E Exteriors said:


> This is precisely why the company is making me do 16 mandatory osha training courses so that if I decide to untie myself on a metal roof in the artic, fall, and break 2 legs an arm and a hip... they can simply point out my fancy certificate of completion and say, "well, he knew better, sucks to be him"


In my experience we don't force employees to take these courses so we can say "he knew better", we require them because our insurance either requires it or we get a discount on our premiums.
The argument that he had the class and made a bad choice fails in a legal setting because the obligation is not just to create a safe work environment but to also "maintain it at all times".


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Joe Fairplay said:


> In my experience we don't force employees to take these courses so we can say "he knew better", we require them because our insurance either requires it or we get a discount on our premiums.
> The argument that he had the class and made a bad choice fails in a legal setting because the obligation is not just to create a safe work environment but to also "maintain it at all times".


Sure. They do take it seriously and I will absolutly adhere to the policy too. It still is about the companies bottom dollar though.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

hdavis said:


> Anyone actually seen someone fall off a roof? I've seen it, but that was a guy who clears snow off sloped roofs in the winter.


Yup

Back in 2004 One of my dads employees setting up a chimney scaffolding on a new McMansions 

Went down over 2 stories 


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> I've smoked for 50 years and haven't gotten lung cancer. So what?
> 
> Took a 7 mile hike last weekend, no problem. Going to repeat that hike in 2-3 weeks with a 45 lb camping backpack, NBD. So what?
> 
> My life, my choices. I'll let you know when I'm ready for you to tell me how to live it.


So what is you're missing my point. I'm not telling you what to do. If you're stupid enough to smoke and/or roof without fall protection, have at it. Just don't blow your damn smoke in anyone else's face and don't endanger any employees by denying them fall protection.

And if you're too stupid to put your children in car seats, or let them operate nail guns without PPE, or deny them surgical removal of cancerous tumors because your religion believes that Jesus will save them, you can count on the nanny state to step in on their behalf. With my full support.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Tinstaafl said:


> No, Joe, it's exactly on the mark. Sure, if my actions impinge on you and yours, that's a different case. But I don't need you telling me what's best for me. Way too much of that going on these days.


Out of context I agree, personal responsibility is a simple fact of life. You make choices and you live with those choices.
In context, this is a thread about 3 guys on a 3 story roof who are committing a serious violation of safety standards for those conditions.
As professional contractors anyone who disagreed, in my opinion, is committing a serious violation of professional standards.
Anyone (worker or contractor) that lacks the ability to recognize the danger and the need to remediate it through industry standard safety protocols absolutely needs other professionals to tell them what is best for them.
This thread is supposed to be a peer to peer interaction among professionals.
Not only do they need to be told what's best for them, in my opinion, it is *required* you tell them that, if you call yourself a professional or a contractor. 
I am not surprised some people would argue it was the workers choice or I'm a stud roof walker so I don't need one.
I made a prediction back in the beginning of this thread and I stand by it.


Joe Fairplay said:


> So a quick read of this thread will expose the fakes and unqualified "contractors" to the rest of us.


It has been revealing not only individually as members but also collectively as so called "Contractor Only" members.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Jock Sutherland is such a bad ass he doesn't need to tie off!!


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

A&E Exteriors said:


> No gloves or improper gloves for a given task alone will get us a $350 ticket, improper footwear, $350. No saftey glasses/ side shields is $500


Yeah, I think that last one should be tree fiddy as well.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Seems like a good time to tell you guys, that I'm a rebel, cause my tablesaw isn't a Sawstop. That should get another 14 pages worth of Joe telling those of us who don't take safety serious, that we're hacks.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I don't equate OSHA compliance and professionalism. 

They are two different things.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Show me the difference! Ok so you change a sink out, possibly cutting Ktop, drilling holes, breathing all kinds of adhesive fumes, fillers, dust particles & smearing it everywhere etc. Do you wear a respirator, rubber blue gloves, keep anyone else from inhaling your toxic chit, do you block work area off so nobody else is exposed, you got a difference


Mike


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Joe Fairplay said:


> In context, this is a thread about 3 guys on a 3 story roof who are committing a serious violation of safety standards for those conditions.


This thread started out about Kowboy dropping a dime.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Kingcarpenter1 said:


> Show me the difference! Ok so you change a sink out, possibly cutting Ktop, drilling holes, breathing all kinds of adhesive fumes, fillers, dust particles & smearing it everywhere etc. Do you wear a respirator, rubber blue gloves, keep anyone else from inhaling your toxic chit, do you block work area off so nobody else is exposed, you got a difference
> 
> 
> Mike


Mike:

I'm going to answer your response, but before I do, please know that it's irrelevant. Logical fallacy of relevance tu quoque to be specific.

We use all state-of-the-art equipment in our operations. There is virtually no dust when we saw countertops in the house. We build a thing we call our "igloo" which is 5/8" clear plastic hurricane sheathing around the sink area in minutes. It has a ceiling and when we protect the floor and pull visqueen over the back, no water spray can escape; no masking adjacent cabinets. A large plastic bag is clamped in the sink base cabinet and we connect our water-fed polishers to the cold supply line. Profiling and polishing we are working wet, just like the guys in the fabrication shop who built the top. No mask is necessary because there is absolutely no poison silica dust airborne.

Here is the MSDS for methacrylate, the adhesive we predominantly use, usually before the igloo is assembled when there is plenty of ventilation. We have never experienced any symptoms of overexposure nor have any customers. Once in a while a woman customer will say "That smells just like the nail salon." so there you go.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

hdavis said:


> This thread started out about Kowboy dropping a dime.


You say that as if that would be something for which I should be ashamed. If you're beating your wife and kids, Ima call that one in too. Unapologetically and proudly.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> You say that as if that would be something for which I should be ashamed. If you're beating your wife and kids, Ima call that one in too. Unapologetically and proudly.


You called the company, not OSHA, so you did them a favor, and I bet they appreciate it


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

hdavis said:


> You called the company, not OSHA, so you did them a favor, and I bet they appreciate it


Correct. I did and they were appreciative.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Time for a little lesson in reasoning. It is implied here that we've all agreed to make logical sense when we converse, however, some of you are not.

If someone joins this conversation with "I bought my wife a bunch of pretty flowers.", that would be nice, but it has absolutely nothing to do with roofing safety and we would be remiss is we failed to point that out.

While it sneakily sounds like it's relevant, posts about my circumstances are as irrelevant to the conversation as the flower bunch. 

Let's say the town council is debating whether or not to pass an ordinance banning second-hand smoke. I enter into evidence 500 pages of peer reviewed scientific studies that prove second-hand smoke is dangerous. rrk and Kingcarpenter1 are in the audience and shout out "Kowboy, you've been a smoker for 50 years!" and the opposition crowd goes wild. 

Hypothetically, I was a smoker for 50 years. Yes, you've caught me being a hypocrite, but you haven't addressed my documented arguments that second-hand smoke should be banned.

That's what's going on here. No one has or can make a cogent argument that employees should work without proper PPE. When you make personal attacks, not only are you wasting time and typing, you're admitting that the task of articulating an argument against the use of PPE is impossible for you to do. It's not a good look.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> Time for a little lesson in reasoning. It is implied here that we've all agreed to make logical sense when we converse, however, some of you are not.
> 
> If someone joins this conversation with "I bought my wife a bunch of pretty flowers.", that would be nice, but it has absolutely nothing to do with roofing safety and we would be remiss is we failed to point that out.
> 
> ...


You should still stick to geriatric p0rn, your whining is worse.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Kowboy said:


> We use all state-of-the-art equipment in our operations. There is virtually no dust when we saw countertops in the house. We build a thing we call our "igloo" which is 5/8" clear plastic hurricane sheathing around the sink area in minutes. It has a ceiling and when we protect the floor and pull visqueen over the back, no water spray can escape; no masking


Sure, we knew that was coming Mr. Safety. I’m sure over the years exposure won’t make any difference either. You’ve fallen 3/4 of the way off your snitching condo roof. Hold on, fixin to hit 


Mike


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

pinwheel said:


> Seems like a good time to tell you guys, that I'm a rebel, cause my tablesaw isn't a Sawstop. That should get another 14 pages worth of Joe telling those of us who don't take safety serious, that we're hacks.


One would have to be massively deficient in cognitive ability and reasoning to equate what brand or style of table saw one uses with protocol for working on a three story roof.
Another example where a member is willing to prove their ignorance or show themselves in a bad light to get a pat on the back by a few of the "click" members.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

hdavis said:


> This thread started out about Kowboy dropping a dime.


I'm not here to defend Kowboy, I do not know the guy. Granted some of his replies seem to go far afield of the targets.
But in all fairness it's not like the guy is driving around town like a vigilante seeking out violations.
These workers showed up to property he owns and has liability for, he didn't go seeking them, they came to him.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Joe Fairplay said:


> I'm not here to defend Kowboy, I do not know the guy. Granted some of his replies seem to go far afield of the targets.
> But in all fairness it's not like the guy is driving around town like a vigilante seeking out violations.
> These workers showed up to property he owns and has liability for, he didn't go seeking them, they came to him.


Stay tuned then.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

pinwheel said:


> Seems like a good time to tell you guys, that I'm a rebel, cause my tablesaw isn't a Sawstop. That should get another 14 pages worth of Joe telling those of us who don't take safety serious, that we're hacks.


SawStop??? I don't even have the safety crap on mine!!


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Jock Sutherland is such a bad ass he doesn't need to tie off!!


Someone should teach bad ass Jock which side is the top side of the ice shield.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> SawStop??? I don't even have the safety crap on mine!!


In most cases I will agree with you there. 
The cheap plastic guard systems on most table saws work so poorly most people remove them to stop the binding of the material.
I removed mine too.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Joe Fairplay said:


> Someone should teach bad ass Jock which side is the top side of the ice shield.


We don't have ice here....so it doesn't matter.... 
He has a break named after him on the 7 mile miracle.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Joe Fairplay said:


> In most cases I will agree with you there.
> The cheap plastic guard systems on most table saws work so poorly most people remove them to stop the binding of the material.
> I removed mine too.


This is why a track saw is better to us on jobs a lot of the time. You can't be nabbed doing it wrong. that saw sitting there all naked is a bad thing.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> This is why a track saw is better to us on jobs a lot of the time. You can't be nabbed doing it wrong. that saw sitting there all naked is a bad thing.


Track saws are great in some circumstances but I have not seen or used one in many moons. Not a very popular item around here.
I don't give people a hard time about their saws or guards except when I see a yahoo using a block of wood to force the guard to stay up on a circular saw.
That is down right a retardo thing to do. Shocked how many times I see it happening.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Joe Fairplay said:


> Track saws are great in some circumstances but I have not seen or used one in many moons. Not a very popular item around here.
> I don't give people a hard time about their saws or guards except when I see a yahoo using a block of wood to force the guard to stay up on a circular saw.
> That is down right a retardo thing to do. Shocked how many times I see it happening.


I agree, if you're going to do it do it right!


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Oh and I do have this saw for military jobs...


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

Joe Fairplay said:


> Someone should teach bad ass Jock which side is the top side of the ice shield.


He’s good.

The side that isn’t sticky goes up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Oh and I do have this saw for military jobs...


I have an ole worm drive that works better than anything new but the darn thing is so heavy.


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## Willievkatz (Jul 28, 2021)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> I agree, if you're going to do it do it right!


Brilliant. I've been sticking a pencil or shim in there for years. Give this thing a catchy name and get it on the market !


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Willievkatz said:


> Brilliant. I've been sticking a pencil or shim in there for years. Give this thing a catchy name and get it on the market !


I suggest "The Toe Reliever" and get Garo Yepremian as the salesman for the infomercial.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Had a guy pin my saw and I didn't know it. Ripped some plywood and picked up the saw and cut open my favorite work jacket across my belly.

I was pretty pissed.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

VinylHanger said:


> Had a guy pin my saw and I didn't know it. Ripped some plywood and picked up the saw and cut open my favorite work jacket across my belly.
> 
> I was pretty pissed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


This is why "use your own saw!!" There is a system to using a unguarded blade.


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