# single or double cheek cut hips?



## PZA (Sep 25, 2011)

hi, looking for a little info from some experienced roof cutters if i may..

im working on some traditional roofing at the moment, for one, i needed to build a model for a reason that is not relevant for this question but i can post the pic or it for illustation, and 2 at the same time i have been going over marshall gross's book roof framing, which i love&making the maths stick in my head just cos i guess i get off on knowledge and the best ways of doing things, anyway, i have a question that i cant answer, and i cant find the answer so this is it, im wondering if there is any determining factor or 'rules' when considering on a pair of double cheek cut hips with a king end common(special common), or.. a pair single cheek cut hips? and the which&whys

on my 2400x1200mm model (1 gable end 1 hip) with 45degree pitch and 400mm centres (see photo), i know i can chose any, but am just wondering what you regular stick framer guys do as you come across the hips, is there anything that governs your descision making, makes you go one way over another, ie position/centres of jacks etc......... obviously me not doing much traditional work was hoping i could find some easy, obvious answer here that ive obviously missed or maybe there is no answer either way i guess someone knows!

remember.. there are no stupid questions!! thanks! :stupid:


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

I layout my hips from the building line up to the head of the hip.
Edit I miss read the question:blink: I thought you were looking for the jack layout??


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

There is no determining factor. It's what you feel comfortable with. Try it and you will find your preferred method.

I personally do the double cheek cut. I do this simple because I find it to be the method that uses the least amount of adjustments on your lengths and such.

For an example (sorry, I am using imperial measurements) when you have a 28'x40' building, you are punching in 14' for the run (half span) and that measurement you come up with for your hips in your calcs is pulled from the bullnose point. Your ridge will also be a regular number, i.e., 12' rather than some oddball number.

Yellow line in second picture represents the theoretical measurements


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## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2010)

I do it the same as Kent. No need adjusting a bunch of lengths to save a 2 second cut.:thumbup:


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## PZA (Sep 25, 2011)

great thanks guys, guess ill try both like you said, so there is no pros and cons apart from what you mentioned ie: marking/cutting, and no special circumstances where one might be preferable.....?


(without going into irregular roofs as im not interested in those for now


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

PZA said:


> great thanks guys, guess ill try both like you said, so there is no pros and cons apart from what you mentioned ie: marking/cutting, and no special circumstances where one might be preferable.....?
> 
> 
> (without going into irregular roofs as im not interested in those for now


I don't like irregular roofs either. They can be real bastards.


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

Warren said:


> I don't like irregular roofs either. They can be real bastards.


Lol! 
When I first started I used to make all my deductions and then calc, It was a pita. It's a ton easier to calculate center lines and make deductions while measuring the rafter, you usually only have to do this once while making your pattern. 
I'm also curious about how hip and king connections are done by others, does every one use a king common? Do y'all join your hips and then add king like Kents pic? Does anyone butt king into ridge and then add hips?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I prefer to butt the king to the ridge. Just the way I have always done it.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

My preferred method, the hips and ridge go first, then the king with the bullnose so you can nail in from the end, then the commons. Otherwise, you can't get nails into the king without frustration.

The reason I don't like it so much like the way Warren does it is that now the ridge needs to be extended and the hips need to be shortened. It's a pretty flimsy reason and there is nothing wrong with it. There is some benefits to it really. The way I put mine in the commons against the hips are off layout 3/4".

Six to one, half a dozen to another


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

Warren said:


> I prefer to butt the king to the ridge. Just the way I have always done it.


And it eliminates an extra compound cut, I prefer it as well.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

I make my deductions for ridge thickness for my calcs, then add the deduction to the ends of the ridge. Butt the common into the ridge and do a single cheek cut on the hips. This works especially well with bastard hips because you can set the top first to plane into both the top of the ridge and the adjacent king common, then let the hip length gauge where it sits at the plate line. If the building is square, the ridge is pinned and the math is correct, there is never a problem with locating the hips, which will be offset from the corner when maintaining equal overhangs.


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

Ya, what he said.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Well, seeing that Riz is posting some pictures...why not? :laughing:

Either way would work for me.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

KentWhitten said:


> Well, seeing that Riz is posting some pictures...why not? :laughing:
> 
> Either way would work for me.


I do like the fact that the hips are locked in and pushing against the ridge, although I haven't lost one yet with the single cheek cuts.:thumbsup:


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## PZA (Sep 25, 2011)

:rockon:


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

KentWhitten said:


> My preferred method, the hips and ridge go first, then the king with the bullnose so you can nail in from the end, then the commons. Otherwise, you can't get nails into the king without frustration.
> 
> The reason I don't like it so much like the way Warren does it is that now the ridge needs to be extended and the hips need to be shortened. It's a pretty flimsy reason and there is nothing wrong with it. There is some benefits to it really. The way I put mine in the commons against the hips are off layout 3/4".
> 
> Six to one, half a dozen to another


this, is my prefered way to frame a hip. But, I've only ever stick framed garden shed roofs. Never anything on a larger scale.


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

while we are on this... Are there any general rules for sizing a hip whether 2x10, 2x12, single, double, lvl, 9'' or 12'' ect.?


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## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2010)

bluebird5 said:


> while we are on this... Are there any general rules for sizing a hip whether 2x10, 2x12, single, double, lvl, 9'' or 12'' ect.?


NO:thumbsup:


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

One size bigger then your rafter stock would be a good rule of thumb, that's what we did in Texas.


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## Birch (Jul 20, 2009)

PZA said:


> hi, looking for a little info from some experienced roof cutters if i may....
> 
> i guess someone knows!
> 
> remember.. there are no stupid questions!! thanks! :stupid:


PZA,

This may be more than you're asking for, but here goes....

As far as diamond bevel cuts Vs. single cheek cuts for hips at the ridges goes I typically diamond my Regular pitch hips and single my Irregular pitches. The apparent effective run for either type of hip is equal to the run of the common that sits on the same plate height. (This is stated as such to include the common “Equal Overhang” details where the hip is offset and raised. If the OHs’ are not equal, but proportional, then both pitches commons are on the same plate height, and using either the Major or Minor Common Effective Runs will yield the same Irregular Hip Length. This also provides a double check calculation to confirm you have its’ length correct.)

The real advantage of single bevel cheek cuts for Irregular Hips is that it really simplifies all the cuts on them, and you can cut the entire Irregular Hip System with a typical 7-1/4” saw and never apply a bevel greater than the necessary lesser bevel angle. Also, since the H/V rafters lengths are based on the same effective runs as the commons you can simply apply the length to the top outer shoulder as you do for the commons, the only difference is that you apply the bevel angle to the cheek cuts at both the top and heel, (*AND HEEL*, the face of the wall and the face of the ridge are parallel so the respective cheek cut faces must also be parallel, or at least visualized as parallel. Understanding this geometry eliminates the “Hip Drop” corrective measures as commonly explained in many other "Roof Cutter's" reference books.)

There are two things to keep in mind when cutting the Irregular H/V systems using only the shallow bevel H/V plan-angles. 

1. The steeper jacks will receive the same plan-angle cheek bevel as the Irregular H/V Rafter (and I prefer to calculate these to the long points) but the shallower pitch Jacks will be cut square at the tops. (and calculated lengths are cut square at the apparent short points. Individual ridge blocks that do have the shallow angle cheek bevels on them can be added if necessary.)

2. The diamond cut at the Irregular Hips tail is the only adjacent sharper cheek bevel cut that is necessary and it can be perform by setting the saw to cut square to the cheek face of the lesser bevel. *Keep in mind that the tail lengths of Irregular hips are proportionate to the outside of the fascia, so the effect runs (and lengths) are adjusted to the inside of the Fascia’s detail.

I have posted this link to my *Irregular Hip and Valley Demo* before, it is attached to this JLC Rough Framing Forum thread *"Roof Cutter’s Basics"*

You must have *Google Sketchup* installed to view the Demo. Use the Page Up/Down keys on your keyboard to scroll the scenes.


RB


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