# How to fire people.



## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

I had a guy that showed up 10 minutes late to work regularly.

I told him let's try again after lunch. He was on time then.

Tell your guy you don't need him until after lunch. I bet he will stay past 2 o'clock.



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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Mordekyle said:


> I had a guy that showed up 10 minutes late to work regularly.
> 
> I told him let's try again after lunch. He was on time then.
> 
> ...




I need my guys too bad in the morning to get the job done so When I have a guy that shows up 10 minutes late and he says sorry I am 10 minutes late I always say that you are not 10 minutes late you are 20 minutes early...you can sit there til 730


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## BattleBornNV (Jul 27, 2017)

Windycity said:


> I need my guys too bad in the morning to get the job done so When I have a guy that shows up 10 minutes late and he says sorry I am 10 minutes late I always say that you are not 10 minutes late you are 20 minutes early...you can sit there til 730
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Hahaha. That’s perfect! 



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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> I need my guys too bad in the morning to get the job done so When I have a guy that shows up 10 minutes late and he says sorry I am 10 minutes late I always say that you are not 10 minutes late you are 20 minutes early...you can sit there til 730
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




If my guys are late it's because of a good reason. I don't even question it. 


Mike.
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## JoshN (Jul 2, 2017)

Windycity said:


> Mordekyle said:
> 
> 
> > I had a guy that showed up 10 minutes late to work regularly.
> ...


Sometimes you just can’t control it, unexpected highway work, accidents, etc. I take the same bridge/ highway every day for work at the same time. Usually know how much traffic to expect. Yesterday at the same time as always it was backed up couple miles extra. Luckily I noticed the back up forming and took a alternative route but I’m sure a lot of people didn’t or they are so stuck in there ways they just take the same route without thinking about it. 
Josh


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

Fire him so he can spend the whole day doing the side work that he is missing out on before 2pm. 

Learn to say NO. 

Employee: Can I leave early boss? 
Boss: No. 
Employee: Why not? 
Boss: If you leave early don’t bother coming back. 

Personally, I like to tell them I was looking for GOOD help when I found them. I didn’t forget how to look.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

What a bunch of unyielding greedy bastards. No wonder so many people leave and start their own business. :vs_lol:


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

I kind of understand the 2;00pm thing. It's still a little early. If I'm a good distance from home 3:00pm is shut off time any later and a hour drive becomes a 2 1/2 hour drive


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Californiadecks said:


> If my guys are late it's because of a good reason. I don't even question it.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________


I was meeting Snobnd at the jobsite for 9am. Got to the shop before 8, packed up my stuff and got on the road at 8:20. Didn't get there til 9:20. It's a 30 minute drive. Traffic through the city was nearly at a standstill and I never saw the reason why. 7 mile backup.

Yesterday I left at 8:35 and got there for 9:05. A little late out of the starting box because I had to fix a boo boo I made the night before on a rail I had finished. Made it 13/16" thick when it was suppose to be 3/4" thick. Set me back 10 minutes. But glad I caught it.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Irishslave said:


> I kind of understand the 2;00pm thing. It's still a little early. If I'm a good distance from home 3:00pm is shut off time any later and a hour drive becomes a 2 1/2 hour drive


1 hour out is about as far as I like to work from the shop. On rare occasion I'll work farther out, but I hate it.


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## RickP (Jan 31, 2018)

Sounds like my brother. He's a fire sprinkler fitter and always early, never late, will work harder, faster and more precise than most people, but wants to pack up at 2:30. Plus, he always seems to have an angry, crappy attitude. Firing isn't easy, even if you give the person plenty of warnings. When I was 25, I was the production manager of a door shop with 26 employees. Majority of the guys were older than me. I had to fire a guy in his mid 30's for being chronically late. He broke down in tears and begged like a child for his job because of having a wife and kids. I about threw up afterwards. Today, 25 years later, I don't think it would bother me one bit, because I realize it's his actions that caused his firing.


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## Peter_C (Nov 26, 2014)

Traffic is out of a persons control. I used to commute all over the San Francisco Bay Area which is hellish. If I was going to be late, the client would get a phone call. Same for when I worked for someone. If I was stuck in traffic they would get a phone call. "Hey, stuck in traffic, I'll be in as soon as possible". Never have I left late for work, without a really good reason.

Sometimes when going to multiple sites you will overrun time and again the next client gets a call saying you are behind schedule and will be there at approximately XX:XX time. 

Thanks to modern mapping apps we know an approximate time we will arrive and can call long in advance to say we are running behind.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Californiadecks said:


> If my guys are late it's because of a good reason. I don't even question it.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________




For me it all depends on the guy, when my dad had a crew there was always the one guy that showed up every day right at 7 and not a minute early. He was always the last one on the job working because everyone was getting ready for work at 650 and would be on the wall at 7 but he would always be right to the minute then he had to put his boots on and take a leak before he started. Then he had to scrub his tools and wipe the levels down and wouldn’t be laying brick til 720

Well if you let him start 10 minutes late then the rest of your guys start thinking that it’s ok to be 10 minutes late. Especially if you are paying union wages and benefits 20 minutes adds up to a few bucks

Now currently I don’t have a crew and all of my current guys are great and I have no issues if they are a few minutes late. Of course it also makes a huge difference when they text or call to let me know they might be running late but usually they are there before me drinking coffee. Plus all of my current guys go above and beyond to help me with my jobs and business so I don’t mind them if they need to leave early or show up late for whatever reason


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Peter_C said:


> Traffic is out of a persons control. I used to commute all over the San Francisco Bay Area which is hellish. If I was going to be late, the client would get a phone call. Same for when I worked for someone. If I was stuck in traffic they would get a phone call. "Hey, stuck in traffic, I'll be in as soon as possible". Never have I left late for work, without a really good reason.




If you work for most “larger” companies traffic is not an excusable reason to be late, you need to account for traffic. for example when I used to work at the airline if your start time is 7 AM and you badge in at 7:01 it is considered an occurrence and if you had three occurrences within 12 months it was grounds for termination. Now if your car breaks down and at the investigation you can show that it was towed because you have a receipt then they might throw that occurrence out, but traffic or trains isn’t a good enough reason


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> I need my guys too bad in the morning to get the job done so When I have a guy that shows up 10 minutes late and he says sorry I am 10 minutes late I always say that you are not 10 minutes late you are 20 minutes early...you can sit there til 730
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk






Windycity said:


> For me it all depends on the guy, when my dad had a crew there was always the one guy that showed up every day right at 7 and not a minute early. He was always the last one on the job working because everyone was getting ready for work at 650 and would be on the wall at 7 but he would always be right to the minute then he had to put his boots on and take a leak before he started. Then he had to scrub his tools and wipe the levels down and wouldn’t be laying brick til 720
> 
> Well if you let him start 10 minutes late then the rest of your guys start thinking that it’s ok to be 10 minutes late. Especially if you are paying union wages and benefits 20 minutes adds up to a few bucks
> 
> ...




My point is I wouldn't have anyone working for me that I had to put the hammer on like you do. I couldn't imagine putting a worker on a time out like 5 year old. But if it works for you.... :whistling:


Mike.
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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Californiadecks said:


> My point is I wouldn't have anyone working for me that I had to put the hammer on like you do. I couldn't imagine putting a worker on a time out like 5 year old. But if it works for you.... :whistling:
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________




When you have enough employees working at one time eventually you will have to deal with situations like that where an employee is chronically late, it is only fair to the other 12 guys that are on time. I wouldn’t call it a time out. I wouldn’t require a guy to work extra time without paying him therefore why should an employer just be cool with someone showing up late and still getting full pay? 

Fortunately I don’t have a crew like my dad did back in the day so I don’t have to deal with it anymore. 

If I recall the minute man started showing up earlier after a few times so I guess he got the point 


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> When you have enough employees working at one time eventually you will have to deal with situations like that where an employee is chronically late, it is only fair to the other 12 guys that are on time. I wouldn’t call it a time out. I wouldn’t require a guy to work extra time without paying him therefore why should an employer just be cool with someone showing up late and still getting full pay?
> 
> Fortunately I don’t have a crew like my dad did back in the day so I don’t have to deal with it anymore.
> 
> ...




You don't teach lessons in this business. I've been on jobs that had 300 carpenters. There was no lesson. It was you either work here or you don't. It's that simple. They are not children.


Mike.
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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> You don't teach lessons in this business. I've been on jobs that had 300 carpenters. There was no lesson. It was you either work here or you don't. It's that simple. They are not children.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________


You bet on a large commercial crew no other way.

But as a small GC, at least in my opinion, my 3-4 man crew were my personal hooligans. Some needed teaching, encouragement and at times a come to jesus meeting where they left with tears in their eyes.

I loved my 3 guys. They did what ever needed done. If we were not on a big custom job they never knew what they might be doing.

In life chit happens, especially if they have families.

Kids have demands that must be met.

Even when I had big commercial crews this was prevalent.

I would say my somewhat lenient attitude, so long as it was not abused came back to me way more than i paid out.

But not everyone is wired the same way. I grew up in construction with GC's that had families and adopted me in to them.

It's worked for me for 40 plus years and my recent super experience i practiced what i preached, much to the dismay of the GC, but it came back in spades....:thumbsup:


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## elementbldrs (Sep 26, 2010)

I ebb and flow 50-140 guys onsite, many are subs, many are mine. Right now our concrete division is running 500 union carpenters and 300 laborer. Regardless I’m responsible for all production, so anyone late on my site I’m responsible for. 

I hear all the excuses. A late here and there I let them know that’s not going to work and tighten it up, the next time it’s 2 checks and a via con dios. The crew all knows what happened, how, and why. That’s the lesson my guys learn. And my foreman let’s them know what’s up. 


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

griz said:


> You bet on a large commercial crew no other way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm not saying they can never be late or have mishap, what I'm saying is if I need to punish an employee we aren't going to be a good fit. If My guys are late I don't even expect a phonecall. I just know they are stuck in traffic. 

I wouldn't feel right having to pull a guy to the side to have a talk to. But my company now is never more than 4 guys strong. 

I have guys that are very loyal and take care of me as I take care of them. I basically let them do whatever they want, because I trust they have my interest in mind when it comes to the business. You'll find they more or less handle any mishaps between themselves. They don't let each other screw up! Or they will get their balls busted! :laughing:

This allows me to be the good cop!!!




Mike.
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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

In the US If you leave negative information out of a reference, anyone hiring the person based on the reference can sue if the hire goes wrong.


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## zukinut (Dec 24, 2017)

Before my father started his company, he was laid off on Christmas Eve via phone call. I was a baby He took that as his calling card to do his own thing. He also took that as a calling card to have a hard time firing people. 

I once overheard him tell a guy "al, you've worked for me for years, you've made me lots of money and I've paid you well, but lately, you've been costing me money and now it's time that I cost you some money"

I heard that 30 years ago and it's stuck with me. That's how I run the company now that he's retired.

Pretty cut and dry. I hired you to help me make money, in return I give you some of it. Don't help me, I don't help you.


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## Cantifix (Apr 19, 2018)

zukinut said:


> Before my father started his company, he was laid off on Christmas Eve via phone call. I was a baby He took that as his calling card to do his own thing. He also took that as a calling card to have a hard time firing people.
> 
> I once overheard him tell a guy "al, you've worked for me for years, you've made me lots of money and I've paid you well, but lately, you've been costing me money and now it's time that I cost you some money"
> 
> ...


I think this can be a fair way to handle things - I guess the main thing would be to make sure your staff know that's how you see/run things. As long as you and your staff are on the same page, then everybody wins; can't say fairer than that!


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

hdavis said:


> In the US If you leave negative information out of a reference, anyone hiring the person based on the reference can sue if the hire goes wrong.


I've never heard of a reference where they explain that someone was fired for cause. To the contrary, many employers just confirm employment dates, if anything.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> I've never heard of a reference where they explain that someone was fired for cause. To the contrary, many employers just confirm employment dates, if anything.


In CA you really can't put out any negative information as to why the person was fired. It can be in the company's employee file, but letting that information out as to why that person got fired is a short trip to a lawsuit. There are lawyers clamoring over each other to get lawsuits against employers. 

This also explains a lot of hiring practices out here. If you are a minority and a protected class (female, gay, transgender, etc ---basically anyone and anything other than a white straight male) you may have a tough time getting many jobs. Simply because of the difficulty of firing you. However, you may get hired to fill company quotas of minority/protected class people.......which make the company look good as far as PR goes. 

If you have to fire your white straight male employee, make it quick, preferably on a Friday, few words, get to the point and that's it. Have their last paycheck ready, and, if you want, one to two weeks of severance.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Suppose you want to get rid of a guy without firing them. Maybe you're laying off, or maybe you just tell him you won't be able to keep him on, but you'll give him a reference and he can start looking.

Give a glowing reference when there are substantive negatives left out, and whoever hires them can turn around and sue. And win. You can't be dishonest in a reference letter.

On the other hand, doing a bad reference over the phone can get you sued by the ex employee. Who knows if they'd win.

If you do a reference at all, IMO it should be an exception to your general practice, it should be in writing only, no verbal. The letter should be reviewed with the ex employee to make sure they understand the positives and negatives in it. Again, it has to be an overall correct representation of the employee at your company.

Hand it to the ex employee and let them decide if / when they want to use it, you never disclose it directly to any potential employer.

AFAIK, personnel matters are confidential in most states, and if you get into this area, the focus really has to be on protecting the company while helping the person find a good fit.

People who could be good employees in the right situation are canned all the time because they aren't a good fit. Employees you can't imagine being a good employee or a good fit anywhere are never candidates for a reference.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Man I'm so much colder now than I was 10 years ago it's unreal. I used to think a lot of guys were assholes that really we're not, they were just experienced LOL.

I take firing people very seriously but I do not lose any sleep over it at this point unless it's a long-term hand, even then it is what it is. A lot of people's loyalty just does not last forever, mine last until somebody Burns me.

Looking for the laborer I have now I fired 5 guys and 3 quit in about 3 months. I didn't say anything more to any of them than to hand them a check and say it ain't working out Hoss.

Same for Subs, I don't get emotional over that either. I returned the same loyalty shown to me, if they are screwing me over, lying to me and not doing what they said they were going to do I don't care if we've been doing business since the beginning, I will cut them loose and move on.

My advice is to remember this is a business and that you are a businessman, other people want to make it personal that's their problem. That guy is not doing his job Point Blank, and he's causing you stress and grief, shouldn't even be a decision for you. Just tell him that it isn't working out and to move on. All that stuff about worrying it took 10 months, I look at it that he had 10 months to change his ways and didn't do it. LOL.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

BTW, if you're doing this in a large organization, it's against every company's policy I've ever seen. You have to have a clear business reason for doing it. You also have to assume that other employees will find out. There is enough added work involved that it really has to be an exceptional circumstance.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

hdavis said:


> Suppose you want to get rid of a guy without firing them. Maybe you're laying off, or maybe you just tell him you won't be able to keep him on, but you'll give him a reference and he can start looking.
> 
> Give a glowing reference when there are substantive negatives left out, and whoever hires them can turn around and sue. And win. You can't be dishonest in a reference letter.
> 
> ...


A lot of people worry about that s*** but I don't see it happening Davis. The only referral I'll ever give somebody is whether or not they were a good hand or I'd hire him back again. And they will be to someone I know somebody calls over the phone I'm not likely to return the call it was a really good hand.

I'd like to see the lawyer that a hand it can't cut the mustard would be able to hire and would take on a case against a reputable company. If you're worried about it have them sign a piece of paper for their last check saying that they were released for this reason. I've never been worried about it myself

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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I've seen people told to stay away from all company premises, job sites, and equipment. You're still employed by us for the next two weeks, but your job is to find another job.

Sometimes it's cheaper that way.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> Sorry parkers5150, eyerolling does not answer my argument as to what "does not fit in" means.
> 
> I know this will be much more difficult than pressing an emoji button, but perhaps you could take the time and intellect to articulate an explanation.


Doesn't fit in is a legitimate concern for someone trying to have a cohesive crew.

I'm not talking about everybody on the crew likes to hunt deer and listens to country music and this guy likes Opera and wants to go rock climbing on the weekend, I'm talking about everybody else on the crew has good rapport with each other and takes accountability for their actions and watch it each other's back and this guy's a douche bag who does not take accountability and is always complaining, yeah he doesn't fit in and he needs to go.

Culture is a big deal in a company that is bigger than one person. Even if it's just two people the culture of that company is important to both its clientele and its trade partners and its employees and its profitability


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

hdavis said:


> I've seen people told to stay away from all company premises, job sites, and equipment. You're still employed by us for the next two weeks, but your job is to find another job.
> 
> Sometimes it's cheaper that way.


That's funny. LOL. I was taught if you want to run somebody off have them unload the dumpster looking for something that doesn't exist and then have them put it all back and if they don't quit by then take it all back out again. Commercial construction 101.. LOL. Never done it but it works. LOL


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Jaws said:


> A lot of people worry about that s*** but I don't see it happening Davis. The only referral I'll ever give somebody is whether or not they were a good hand or I'd hire him back again. And they will be to someone I know somebody calls over the phone I'm not likely to return the call it was a really good hand.
> 
> I'd like to see the lawyer that a hand it can't cut the mustard would be able to hire and would take on a case against a reputable company. If you're worried about it have them sign a piece of paper for their last check saying that they were released for this reason. I've never been worried about it myself
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Big companies worry about it all the time. They pay people big money to worry about it. I understand you probably don't have the exposure, but I've seen protected class firings for cause in engineering take more than 2 years, and over the years a number of suits, just none with people I fired. When you get into six figure salaries, it's pretty easy for an employee to find a lawyer to take the case, and once you include back salary and punitive damages, there is a lot of money on the table. Trial costs are $20k and up, so getting a payout without going to trial can be pretty easy. That assumes no potential violation of federal laws are involved, then you have the gummint after you, too.

Hang on to a person's check because they won't sign a piece of paper, and you just helped make their case. 

You don't even want to have to know this, some areas of the US employees are always looking to scam and there are lawyers waiting to help. Other areas, they're pretty upright. Usually it's a big city disease.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Well I think we'll be all right here unless we start building shopping malls or something. LOL I've never had any kind of issue, and as head of our HR department I have fired quite a few people.


I hear what you're saying though, I was talking about small-time construction companies not big companies. My wife worked on the 8th floor of a high-rise in downtown Austin, what they go through to fire someone is absolutely absurd


hdavis said:


> Big companies worry about it all the time. They pay people big money to worry about it. I understand you probably don't have the exposure, but I've seen protected class firings for cause in engineering take more than 2 years, and over the years a number of suits, just none with people I fired. When you get into six figure salaries, it's pretty easy for an employee to find a lawyer to take the case, and once you include back salary and punitive damages, there is a lot of money on the table. Trial costs are $20k and up, so getting a payout without going to trial can be pretty easy. That assumes no potential violation of federal laws are involved, then you have the gummint after you, too.
> 
> Hang on to a person's check because they won't sign a piece of paper, and you just helped make their case.
> 
> You don't even want to have to know this, some areas of the US employees are always looking to scam and there are lawyers waiting to help. Other areas, they're pretty upright. Usually it's a big city disease.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Man I'm so much colder now than I was 10 years ago it's unreal. I used to think a lot of guys were assholes that really we're not, they were just experienced LOL.
> 
> I take firing people very seriously but I do not lose any sleep over it at this point unless it's a long-term hand, even then it is what it is. A lot of people's loyalty just does not last forever, mine last until somebody Burns me.
> 
> ...


When I started I said I'm not going to be that guy in many ways. 15 years later... I'm that guy and I understand why.

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