# Room wired with 10 gauge wire to wall plugs. 30 amp breaker - OK?



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> potable water shortages are entirely a political error in First world nations like the USA.
> 
> Only decades of failing to build the needed potable water production plants has resulted in California taking of agricultural water supplies to fill the voids created by decades of failure to act at every level of Government.
> 
> ...


You're right about Cali's water problem being caused by the idiots that run the state. This didn't have to happen. For the money they want to spend on the train to nowhere they could build 50 desalination plants.


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

Champion 4 out flushes any 5 gallon toilet I've seen. 1.28 gallons/flush.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> potable water shortages are entirely a political error in First world nations like the USA.
> 
> Only decades of failing to build the needed potable water production plants has resulted in California taking of agricultural water supplies to fill the voids created by decades of failure to act at every level of Government.
> 
> ...


Sloan valves are a different animal than a tank unit. Sloan valves are not used on units that hold water in reserve. 

Tom


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> What about a Air Conditioner/ or in a kitchen countertop area?


The circuits are sized for the loads. Minimum of 2-20 amp small appliance circuits for the counter tops, AC condenser circuit sized the condenser. 

Tom


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

tjbnwi: Every kitchen I seen was laid out to satisfy code, not actually customer use....

The A. C. reference was to window or portable units... I should have been more specific.

If a ferguson can flush with 1.38 gallons, think what it could do with another 0.25 cents worth of water....

What group of fools could ever be tricked into believing there is a shortage of water when the 71% of the world is covered with it a MILE DEEP? What next, exhaling is raising the world's temperature 2 degrees Celsius....


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> tjbnwi: Every kitchen I seen was laid out to satisfy code, not actually customer use....
> 
> The A. C. reference was to window or portable units... I should have been more specific.
> 
> ...


The kitchen is laid out to code because most times you nor anyone else has a clue what the end users use will be. How could you know what the customers use would be on a new home when you don't know who the end user will be? I do remodels and in 30 years I don't recall a single customer knowing exactly what small appliance they were going to place on their counter. That is why the code has been updated to include 2 SA circuits. I know in my own home the counter space appliance dynamics has changed over the years. If the end user needs something beyond code they can have the circuit added. 

The vast majority of window/portable AC units run just fine on a "standard" electrical system install. Look at the plug, on most it will be a NEMA 5-15. 15 amp circuit will handle the unit. If the unit has a different voltage or amperage rating than a 5-15 allows for the higher rated plug protects the circuit by not allowing the unit to be plugged into a 15 amp receptacle. Can't overload the circuit if you can't plug the appliance in.

Our home is on a well, cost is not a factor to me. The newer (3 of them) low volume flush toilets flush just as well as the one 3 gallon flush toilet we still have. None of the new units are power asset. 

Tom


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

To me the Federal mandate to use less water with every flush is typical crazy Eco-Nutter thinking, that reducing the water portion of sewage is helpful is silly in all but the most arid climates.

It is of the same type of thinking that force billions of dollars wasted yearly on "oxygenated" fuels, when oxygen is available(so far) for free that just lowers energy output per gallon (MPG) while "achieving" lower numbers on "pollutants" mostly by the increase in the absolute volume of exhaust gases.

Hundreds of millions of minutes of Americans free time are destroyed on a bonfire of Eco-Nutter fetish regulations every day. A large % of the thefts occur in our bathrooms and kitchens. The Nanny State rules with an Iron fist in the USA's restrooms. The vast majority of the burdensome regulations leave us with less money and time to actually spend on effective ideas and actions to clean our world.

I'll rue the day when the public rejects the various hoaxes and scams crammed down our throats under the guise of environmentalism and rejects rational conservation along with the control freak fetish social engineering.

Water like all commodities will get ever cheaper per unit as the GDP expands, only the interference of government, or crazed magical belief systems(CO2 AGW etc...) or mob action can stop the free market from providing evermore clean water as tech and cheap energy increase..


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I have no clue how this is a waste of time. I close the lid, flush and walk away. Been doing it this way since I was potty trained (except once I'm sure of and it's a real funny story). 

Tom


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

A 5 gallon flush makes sure the "package" reaches it destination....with the velocity of high tech commodes the vehicle is traveling so fast the "package" could get left on the side of the road


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

And oh yeah I'd check this electrical installation a little closer....anyone dumb enough to waste 10 gauge like this is bound to be missing more 

I wanna know how they got it around the screws on the devices


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

TJBNWI: Most of the rest of us stop at the sink, wait a few extra seconds for the slow running faucet to get warm and wash our hands. Then we dry our hands and grab another tissue so we can exit the restroom without getting some lazy AH's fecal matter on our former clean fingers....:whistling I'll agree with the no clue statement...:thumbsup: Its hard to get mad when you don't even know your are getting screwed.

The same school of Progressive/socialism that tells we are too stupid to have high flow fixtures in our homes are the same masters that slowed down the gasoline pumps during Carter's term as President to save energy... 

A whole generation has been raised with their access to water in their homes under the not so helpful thumbs of un-elected bureaucrats that can't be punished for implementing their crazy ideas.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Fouthgeneration said:


> The same school of Progressive/socialism that tells we are too stupid to have high flow fixtures in our homes are the same masters that slowed down the gasoline pumps during Carter's term as President to save energy...


Umm... This is the electrical section of the forum. P&R is the section for political rants. Further posts in this vein will be removed. :thumbsup:


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> TJBNWI: Most of the rest of us stop at the sink, wait a few extra seconds for the slow running faucet to get warm and wash our hands. Then we dry our hands and grab another tissue so we can exit the restroom without getting some lazy AH's fecal matter on our former clean fingers....:whistling I'll agree with the no clue statement...:thumbsup: Its hard to get mad when you don't even know your are getting screwed.
> 
> The same school of Progressive/socialism that tells we are too stupid to have high flow fixtures in our homes are the same masters that slowed down the gasoline pumps during Carter's term as President to save energy...
> 
> A whole generation has been raised with their access to water in their homes under the not so helpful thumbs of un-elected bureaucrats that can't be punished for implementing their crazy ideas.


Seeing as were discussing residential toilets, walking to the sink is just a few steps, I don't need warm water to wash my hands. If you are worried about some lazy AH's fecal matter on your hands, I think you need to have a conversation with lazy AH members of your household. Our home is clean enough where I don't need a paper towel to grab the door knob, try cleaning your bathroom once in a while should remove that fecal matter.

Public washrooms use Sloan style valves---remember:whistling

Tom


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

tjbnwi: " I close the lid, flush and walk away. Been doing it this way since I was potty trained..."

I assumed you closed the door on the walk in....:whistling

I did learn that UL listed outlets are rated at 20 Amps pass through or total for duplex outlets even when constructed with 15 Amp individual outlets.

I find it strange that suggesting spending about 25% more on wiring materials to insure one's household electric motors last as long as possible, is considered a silly idea.

I have meet wiring pulling monkeys in field who use 14 gauge wire for nearly everything because it bends easier,..." I can wire more fixtures a day..."

I find there is a quality of electrical outlet sold for every need or desire, just as there is differing qualities of installers of the materials.
I've worked with many masons who do good work, but don't have a clue how or why masonry actually works as a system.
I've never killed or injured a customer through any failure of my products or their installation. Sadly I do know of electricians who can't say that. :sad:


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## C'est Moi (Jun 6, 2015)

Fouthgeneration said:


> What group of fools could ever be tricked into believing there is a shortage of water when the 71% of the world is covered with it a MILE DEEP? What next, exhaling is raising the world's temperature 2 degrees Celsius....



Wow, you use salt water for your home-- oh I think you forgot to mention that 96.5% of that 71% is salt water. The remaining 3.5% of the 71%is freshwater lakes and water locked up under polar ice caps. http://www.universetoday.com/65588/what-percent-of-earth-is-water/


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

If I lived within one hundred miles of the sea shore in a Desert, I'd spend a penny to get 4 gallons of clean water.... Only my crazy neighbors are worried about A. Nuke plants B. Warming up a degree or two a couple miles of sea shore water with the waste heat.

You use what is close, and doesn't require States/peoples that hate you to help.

Can any believe anyone we could build(permit) another 4 to 8 foot wide water pipeline to Californication land from somewhere with extra water?

I have relatives of friends and relatives stranded economically in Cali land because there is no political will/leadership to solve its simple water problem, Their homes between the "water shortage" & the every higher property and income taxes have declined in value


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## C'est Moi (Jun 6, 2015)

Desalination costs aynwhere from $1.00 to well over $2: to get 264 gallons (2 people typically can use that) where as it is 10-20 cents for fresh water. The price is getting closer and California is finally looking into desalination while Tamps, Florida is already doing so and is building the biggest desalination plant in the country.



> The International Desalination Association says that as of 2007 there were about 13,000 desalination plants operating around the world. They pumped out approximately 14.7 billion gallons (55.6 billion liters) of drinkable freshwater a day. A lot of these plants are in countries like Saudi Arabia, where energy from oil is cheap but water is scarce.


So yes their is a shortage of of drinking water because they did not act sooner but remember California was on the verge of bankruptcy and spending money was a no-no. But there is no shorter of water on the earth...... All the water that we have has been here forever but it is not always were we need it nor as clean as we prefer.

I don't want to go further as I hate political threads and it's obvious we are on different sides of the street


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

#14 and #12 already have a significant margin built into their ampacities. To go a size up to "increase the life of motors" in a residential setting is absurd.


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## saynever (Jan 6, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> #14 and #12 already have a significant margin built into their ampacities. To go a size up to "increase the life of motors" in a residential setting is absurd.




Agreed. In a typical residential situation, 14awg is fine. Like you said, the code already builds in a safety factor. To me its absurd the circuits are already sized for 125% of the cord and plug load or if you look at it the other way, we only load the circuits 80%. The listed ampacity of the wire in 310 already has a safety factor built in as well. 

Unless you have a long run and you crunch the voltage drop and see you need to upside the larger wire is kind of being wasted. The little extra area between 14 and 10 ain't gonna save you in a real brown out anyways. Don't forget about your grid neighbours' harmonics either cause that 10awg wire ain't gonna do squat for the shape of the sine wave coming at you. 

I ran all 12awg in my house? Why? Because the wire was free to me. I'll tell you it makes splicing harder in those little micro junction boxes on some high hats. I needed the largest boxes possible on some of my 3 and 4 gang switch locations too and still had to be very mindful of my box fill. 

My buddy warned me that my personal house wasnt like the commercial work we are used too. Ha-ha. He was right. :laughing:

The funny thing is unless you are trying to get more outlets on a single breaker to save space in the panel you aren't gaining much by upsizing. Plus most devices are aiming at being more energy efficient not less? With leds you could almost get away with one lighting ciruit for an average sized house if you did little thinking. Not that I would do that I'm just using a little hyperbole.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

saynever said:


> My buddy warned me that my personal house wasnt like the commercial work we are used too. Ha-ha. He was right. :laughing:


Please tell this to all the NYC union guys who come up here to do side work for friends. I have to clean up their messes all the time.


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