# Why do woodworkers make less?



## finakat (Jun 7, 2011)

Hello all, I know we don't really talk pay and pricing here but I'm just asking a general questions about why it seems employees working in fabrication woodshops (custom or non) seem to always be averaging less than their site construction carpentry counter parts 

It's all carpentry isn't it? And if anything woodworking is more...just so much more exact and anal about everything. Especially with the long finishing process and everything I just don't see it.

Im not saying that woodworkers make A ALOT less but the difference is certainly noticeable. Is it because they average more overtime usually working long hours in the shop? Or because it's indoor work and all you're doing is design and build??? What's going on?


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Indoor and generally easier work (on the body). When I worked in a cabinet shop there were a lot of older guys doing the technical work who would not want to handle the on-site labor component.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Another thing to consider is that when you are in the shop, you are working in a controlled environment with restrooms and a fridge to keep your lunch in. Your travel distance and times are more consistent so you are in a better position to plan things outside of work. You are in a safe environment where your tools, phone, etc. don't grow legs and walk away and your job isn't as "vehicle dependent" as it would be as a field worker. As long as you can get to the shop by any means, you can work. If you have to carry a load of tools, pick up supplies, etc. hitching a ride with your buddy doesn't quite do the job.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

It doesn't make a difference what the profession - pay is higher for crappy working conditions than for good working conditions. Think putting new plumbing in a new house vs replacing old plumbing in an old house.:laughing:


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

hdavis said:


> Think putting new plumbing in a new house vs replacing old plumbing in an old house.:laughing:


I used to work for a company that paid everyone the same money regardless of whether you did new construction or retro-fit work. It seemed like the guys who were on the new construction team were always getting the kudos and the awards and the bonuses.


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## kingcarpenter (Jan 30, 2015)

*how come woodworkers make less*

Pretty simple here. Lot less wear and tear on the rig, body, mind & tools etc. Your driving to one spot daily. Your body is in a shaded or controled building out of elements. Your not jacking with some straight out of college punk who tells you he needed it framed last week. Your not dragging out and dragging in your tools daily. Your not chasing money on draw day. And the list goes on.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

I think the biggest thing is like someone else posted,inside work,no weather days.


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## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

Having never worked in an indoor/cabinet shop setting, what are we really talking for pricing difference?

If a good, low-man, apprentice/assembler makes $16/, is he making $12/ inside? Or a highly skilled lead/foreman at $35-40, what does he make to run the shop for the owner? $20-25?

The reasons for less pay are apparent, but never knew of the pay differences.


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## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

I would say the margins are higher in home building than cabinet making and over heads lower


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

The guys making trusses inside aren't making much. Roof cutters get more, but that isn't really a fair comparison. 

Maybe indoor prefab wall building vs site wall building?


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## TimberlineMD (Jan 15, 2008)

Law of supply and demand. I have been on both sides.

Woodworking/Cabinetmaking for many in the field started as a hobby that eventually became a business. There are many thousands of woodworkers/cabinetmakers out there competing for work. Including the hobby shop type, keeping prices low. 

Many of the construction trades pay better, I think, because I cannot think of one trade that could be considered a 'hobby'. Yes, many people love what they do, but probably wouldn't turn it into a 'hobby'.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Please don't be offended, but here's the deal. In a shop, a supervised environment , in most cases, a lesser paid and lesser skilled person can perform as good or even better work at less pay than the guy in the field ...because the equipment is fabulous and the process is very controlled . Bear in mind , the owner bears all operating , material and equipment cost , which can be HUGE. in the field , its all reversed , the equipment is often limited, there is way less overhead , and the worker is generally higher paid . why? The situation requires it ..in the field , building a bookcase is about the same as in the shop, except the floor is out of level a 1/2 inch, one wall is out of plumb, and the ceiling may be out 2 ways....this guy has to deal with that, furnish his tools , not scratch the floor, hopefully has power, is being rushed by the owner , or they are standing there changing it as its being built , and he has to smile and keep a good attitude . It takes a special guy to pull all that off. Its a little like comparing a guy on a Detroit assembly line to a guy in a NASCAR fab shop...same job, but very different . Basically , in America today, good tradesman can practically command their wages, because we produce so few high level tradespeople, because we have no system that produces them.


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## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

AGullion said:


> Please don't be offended, but here's the deal. In a shop, a supervised environment , in most cases, a lesser paid and lesser skilled person can perform as good or even better work at less pay than the guy in the field ...because the equipment is fabulous and the process is very controlled . Bear in mind , the owner bears all operating , material and equipment cost , which can be HUGE. in the field , its all reversed , the equipment is often limited, there is way less overhead , and the worker is generally higher paid . why? The situation requires it ..in the field , building a bookcase is about the same as in the shop, except the floor is out of level a 1/2 inch, one wall is out of plumb, and the ceiling may be out 2 ways....this guy has to deal with that, furnish his tools , not scratch the floor, hopefully has power, is being rushed by the owner , or they are standing there changing it as its being built , and he has to smile and keep a good attitude . It takes a special guy to pull all that off. Its a little like comparing a guy on a Detroit assembly line to a guy in a NASCAR fab shop...same job, but very different . Basically , in America today, good tradesman can practically command their wages, because we produce so few high level tradespeople, because we have no system that produces them.



Yes.

Also, field carpenters are working a lot harder. Raising walls, working at heights, shuffling materials, re-framing after the plumbers come through, etc...


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

And often, with set up, and teardown, interruptions, etc, they have to put in 11 hours to work 7


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## kixnbux (Feb 12, 2015)

AGullion said:


> And often, with set up, and teardown, interruptions, etc, they have to put in 11 hours to work 7



This 😡 annoys me to no end daily. Seems I roll up at 7:30, quit at 7 pm and somehow only worked 8 hours. Still killed the whole day


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## Frank Castle (Dec 27, 2011)

I don't know their wages but, what about workers in a places that make modular homes? Not mobile homes, but indoor built modular.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

It's everything that has been said.

Production work versus field work. Production is cookie cutter. Then you have to install, and nothing is plumb level or square.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

Customers often think that I am expensive. 
However , they don't bat an eye at the plumber and electrician who I hired and told what to do, and how I want it done. 
I have more, heavier tools, and I'm the one who gets the phone call if things go south.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

B.D.R. said:


> Customers often think that I am expensive.
> However , they don't bat an eye at the plumber and electrician who I hired and told what to do, and how I want it done.
> I have more, heavier tools, and I'm the one who gets the phone call if things go south.


This is what always chaps my hide. I may charge 55-65 bucks an hour and get a sideways look even as I roll in with thousands of dollars worth of tools and trailer and truck. 

My plumber and electrician rolls in in his small truck or minivan mainly full of fittings, pulls out one medium sized tool bag and says 90 dollars an hour please. 

Like you said, they don't bat an eye and are ecstatic that they showed up and are only charging them that.

Of course it is the same mentality that doesn't think twice about a 200 dollar 15 minute oil change, but squawks when I charge the same 200 dollars for half a days work crawling under the house.


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

Frank Castle said:


> I don't know their wages but, what about workers in a places that make modular homes? Not mobile homes, but indoor built modular.


The company I used to work for that provided trailers for camp setups paid every one very well. 
The shop guys doing the pre fab made a bit less than the field guys because of the per diem and overtime, but they hauled ass to produce as well. 
Not really a fair comparison, but an example of the playing field being fair.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

B.D.R. said:


> Customers often think that I am expensive.
> However , they don't bat an eye at the plumber and electrician who I hired and told what to do, and how I want it done.
> I have more, heavier tools, and I'm the one who gets the phone call if things go south.





VinylHanger said:


> This is what always chaps my hide. I may charge 55-65 bucks an hour and get a sideways look even as I roll in with thousands of dollars worth of tools and trailer and truck.
> 
> My plumber and electrician rolls in in his small truck or minivan mainly full of fittings, pulls out one medium sized tool bag and says 90 dollars an hour please.
> 
> ...


I've been told, "Mystery, breads margin." Meaning the less the HO understands about what you are doing, the more they are willing to pay. IMO thats why HVAC guys make the most. 

If an HO calls me up and says they want me to do a job "because they don't have time to do it themselves" or "it won't be that hard" I back my way out of it off the get go because if they can do it, or think they can, they aren't going to want to pay my rates.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

Spencer said:


> If an HO calls me up and says they want me to do a job "because they don't have time to do it themselves" or "it won't be that hard" I back my way out of it off the get go because if they can do it, or think they can, they aren't going to want to pay my rates.


Another set of beautiful words that will be printed, framed and hung on the wall in my office! :thumbsup:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

You carpenters think you're the only one that puts up with homeowners squawking at the price?

Every trade does, and people that complain about the price will ***** about it if it's 5 bucks or 5000 bucks it's just their nature.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> You carpenters think you're the only one that puts up with homeowners squawking at the price?
> 
> Every trade does, and people that complain about the price will ***** about it if it's 5 bucks or 5000 bucks it's just their nature.


How did you draw that conclusion?


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## finakat (Jun 7, 2011)

MattK said:


> Having never worked in an indoor/cabinet shop setting, what are we really talking for pricing difference?
> 
> If a good, low-man, apprentice/assembler makes $16/, is he making $12/ inside? Or a highly skilled lead/foreman at $35-40, what does he make to run the shop for the owner? $20-25?
> 
> The reasons for less pay are apparent, but never knew of the pay differences.


Yessir, almost exactly as you said. If a good helper makes $16/hr in the field, he's making $12.50/hr in the shop. If a good apprentice/low man makes $18/hr in the field, he's making $14.00/hr in the shop. If a good mechanic gets $30-35/hr in the field, he's getting $20-25/hr in the shop. Most nobody goes over $25/hr in the shop outside of NYC. A highly skilled foreman $40 yes probably $27 50-$30.00/hr to run the shop.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> How did you draw that conclusion?


Wow. You really will argue about anything.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> You carpenters think you're the only one that puts up with homeowners squawking at the price?
> 
> Every trade does, and people that complain about the price will ***** about it if it's 5 bucks or 5000 bucks it's just their nature.



Some people are just that way. 
Thank god most are not.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> How did you draw that conclusion?


Years of business experience.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

VinylHanger said:


> Wow. You really will argue about anything.


How was that arguing? I asked a question. I was curious why he thought carpenters were the only ones that thought that. I didn't see it in the OP, just wondered where he came up with that position.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

MattK said:


> Or a highly skilled lead/foreman at $35-40, what does he make to run the shop for the owner? $20-25?


Where f "highly skilled lead/foreman at $35-40" earn 40$/hour. Google "situm photobucket". I build already ewerithing that exist in carpentry. Would you hire me?


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## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

tipitop said:


> Where f "highly skilled lead/foreman at $35-40" earn 40$/hour. Google "situm photobucket". I build already ewerithing that exist in carpentry. Would you hire me?


In New England there are plenty of multi-crew operations where each foreman makes $40+, with benefits, company phone/truck/laptop, etc. I personally couldn't hire you because I don't need another me... But, if I ran a 2nd crew with 5 or 6 guys and my foreman ran the jobs that crew worked on, took care of payroll, handled it's share of office work, and oversaw everything so I could focus on the 1st crew, I ABSOLUTELY would pay equivalent. You don't pay 80k to 100k for a foreman unless he produces 3-5x that back for the company.

What do the top tier guys in Minnesota make?


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## TBM (Oct 13, 2016)

Another fact needed to point out is that cabinet builders have a lot larger competitive market the home builders. Home builders may bid against 20 different guys on a job tops. Where a cabinet shop has to compete with all the shops in the area and home depot and amazon and Ikea and WalMart and china and and and. Supply and demand.


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## Carol Barns (Nov 17, 2016)

The way I see it is you're putting less dollars in your pocket in exchange for better health and less danger. Yes woodworking can be dangerous, but it's nothing compared to going up on a roof every day, or working out in -40 conditions for 12 hours.

Having said that, it is still a skilled trade and you should be paid somewhat generously.


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## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

TBM said:


> Another fact needed to point out is that cabinet builders have a lot larger competitive market the home builders. Home builders may bid against 20 different guys on a job tops. Where a cabinet shop has to compete with all the shops in the area and home depot and amazon and Ikea and WalMart and china and and and. Supply and demand.


If there are 20 guys bidding on a job, I'm not interested. I had a case where a guy wanted an addition. Just the initial on site consult took 90 mins. The last thing he mentions to me is he has 3 other guys looking at it that same day and 5 more tomorrow. I asked him how many guys he called and he said he and his wife Googled residential contractor and our city/state and called everyone on the first 3 pages! 

Who has 60-90 mins to spend discussing your project, 20+ times. Add in follow up calls, emails and proposals and the time spent gets way out of hand. You have to ask when calling that number of contractors, what's their ultimate goal....lowest price wins.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Yup,I call that the bidding wars. Who wants to participate in a war ?:sad:


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## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

fjn said:


> Yup,I call that the bidding wars. Who wants to participate in a war ?:sad:


In the end they almost always get what they pay for. I hope wasting everyone's time including their own was worth it. I'd say the hired contractor won but he was probably doing it by the hour when it was all said and done.


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## ACManHouston (Feb 10, 2017)

Not sure if it was mentioned but insurance factors in here as well. Also labor is a factor too. It is more work to install than to just build.


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## MonsieurBon (Feb 4, 2016)

fjn said:


> Yup,I call that the bidding wars. Who wants to participate in a war ?:sad:


Idk, 20 years ago when I had my floors refinished I went with the guys who were the middle price by several hundred in each direction from the other two. They were the only ones who actually measured the house rather than just eyeballing it. I certainly didn't expect anyone to match anyone else's price.


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## TBM (Oct 13, 2016)

My point was that at MOST there will be 20. With cabinets there are endless people to compete with.


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## AcePro (Feb 12, 2017)

jhark123 said:


> Indoor and generally easier work (on the body). When I worked in a cabinet shop there were a lot of older guys doing the technical work who would not want to handle the on-site labor component.


I have to agree that it makes perfect sense that the less risk you take the less money you would make on a job.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> people that complain about the price will ***** about it if it's 5 bucks or 5000 bucks it's just their nature.


Spot on! :thumbup:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

blacktop said:


> Spot on!


It's like bargain hunters.

Some guys you could quote the moon, knock 5 bucks off and they are happy. You tell them no discount and they are fuming. They just have to know they are getting a deal.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

I think the term woodworker needs to be clarified.If it means a guy trying to build bookshelfs or kitchen cabinets trying to compete with a big box home center or Ikea,that is one thing. More than likely,they will make less than their counterpart in the field,for the reasons already posted. If on the other hand,they are a woodworker capable of doing intricate carvings and building heirloom furniture,that is a whole other story. In the mid 1970's,I did some maintenance work in just that type of shop. I can certainly vouch the fact the owner was not at the bottom of the pay scale. I saw a woman come to his shop with a full length sable coat,when she took her gloves off,the rock on her finger was near the size of a golf ball. Her family owned a national confectionery and a major league ball park and team. This rather surly owner never let this woman get the upper hand in the conversation. Near their parting,he stated "if you don't hear from me in 6 mo.,don't call,if you don't hear from me in a year,don't call,same for 18 mo.,I have never made a piece of furniture and forgot who it is for. When it is done,you will be the first to know !. When she left,I said "you are pretty rough with the customers,he gave an explanation as to why he needed to be as he said firm. Bottom line,she left with out ever knowing the price. When your services serve a small nitch market,you set your own prices.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

TBM said:


> My point was that at MOST there will be 20. With cabinets there are endless people to compete with.


This is true. But worth for all industries. Say metal workers compete with one from China. And we compete here with illegals. Electrician and plumber do not compete with them. I know bumping a old tread. But excellent one.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Carpentry and skills have nothing to do with it. When you open a cabinet shop, you're competing against a guy collecting an auto worker's pension working in his paid-for wood-heated pole barn. He gets up every morning and heads in there because he loves it. People don't retire and become electricians and plumbers.

My brother is an amazing musician and guitarist. He retired from nursing. Lotta people play music and would do it for free. Same thing.


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## tkrrox1 (Mar 21, 2019)

I’m more wondering why carpenters make so much less than plumbers and electricians. 


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

tkrrox1 said:


> I’m more wondering why carpenters make so much less than plumbers and electricians.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Plumbers and electricians require 8 years of experience to become a licensed contractor. Carpenters can spend a few hundred bucks and a week online.


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## JoeStanton (Sep 24, 2008)

Big Johnson said:


> Plumbers and electricians require 8 years of experience to become a licensed contractor. Carpenters can spend a few hundred bucks and a week online.


Agreed, in my license class out of 20 people I was the only trade worker. House flippers and real estate agents. Your supposed to have 3 years experience here and a licensed contractor sign off on your hours.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

big johnson said:


> plumbers and electricians require 8 years of experience to become a licensed contractor. Carpenters can spend a few hundred bucks and a week online.


bs.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Big Johnson said:


> Carpenters can spend a few hundred bucks and a week online.


That's what people in general and the ever growing group of truck a$$ (Dollars only) contractors are willing to hire as carpenters. 

Which has driven the greater knowledge and skill set down, which drives price down even further.

Those who call themselves carpenters with less than desired skill set and experience are another story. 80% of what they claim to know is BS and the other 20% is questionable at best. And they seem to make up 90% of the group of carpenters. The real 10% today that are real carpenters are gauged by the performance of the 90%. And as far as the 10% being an asset to a company .... 75% of those companies think highly of the 80% BS factor. 



I'd seriously take on a Tipi, he has some grit and some higher learning over just about anyone Ive hired or worked with in the last 15 years. Well if he was open to exploring the multiple ways of doing things. 


What I call a good carpenter today was the standard run of the mill from 30-35 years ago. Excellence in both knowledge and efficiency is hard to find. 

"Wood Workers" or Cabinet Makers it's kind of even worse than that.


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## tkrrox1 (Mar 21, 2019)

Texas Wax said:


> That's what people in general and the ever growing group of truck a$$ (Dollars only) contractors are willing to hire as carpenters.
> 
> Which has driven the greater knowledge and skill set down, which drives price down even further.
> 
> ...




I dint understand the tipi part but I do agree. I’ve had a running ad on indeed for 6months and for the last month, I am having them come in for 2/3 hours to do simple basic carpentry...build a jamb and install it and trim one side, cope a piece of 3-1/4 base, put in a inside and outside corner crown, scribe a piece of siding on a gable end....so far not one person has been able to do it and I have 1/2 guys come in a week. It’s depressing 


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Leo G said:


> bs.


Nope.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Plumbers and electricians can get their rate easier. They get in and out. Their work is licensed and all helps.

I have people they drive me crazy consuming my time unpaid upfront, then a way larger scope of finishes. Thats what people see and care about, not whats behind the walls. 

Mechanical get jobs handed to them, carpenter GC do all the leg work and putz around fine tuning craftsmanship at an unpredictable expense.

Thats my take. Good skills take time regardless of the ease of entry into the profession but the ease of freelance make the job much harder


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

We have to deal with all the others who made small (or large) mistakes and make our work look good despite them. If you put a cabinet in and against a crooked wall, you have to scribe it in because the trade before you did poor work. If you don't you get blamed, not the other guy. Floors with curves, tilted walls, out of square corners. All of these end up the trim carpenters problem in the end.

I have been doing this since 1985 and since that time I have only been in one place that was what all of them should be. I put the cabinets on the floor, put my laser level on and was shocked it was level and straight. All I had to do is screw them to the wall. And on that same job I had to put up very tall wall paneling which wrapped around a corner. I always worry about these because my stuff is premade and finished. The corner was straight, plumb in both directions and square. How about that. Funny how you consider something done right amazing.

Since that job I still haven't found a house that I didn't have to shim and scribe.

Generally the painter is the last guy in who has to deal with all the sins committed before him.

Plumbers can do sloppy but functional work and get paid. Most of it get hidden. If a trim guy or cabinet guy does sloppy work it stands out for all to see.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

tkrrox1 said:


> I dint understand the tipi part


TipiTop


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Tom M said:


> Plumbers and electricians can get their rate easier. They get in and out. Their work is licensed and all helps.
> 
> I have people they drive me crazy consuming my time unpaid upfront, then a way larger scope of finishes. Thats what people see and care about, not whats behind the walls.
> 
> ...


Pretty much my take.

Electrician pulls one wire, cuts in a box, hooks up wire, puts on plate charges 350 bucks and homeowner is happy he could get there no matter the cost. Leaves after 30 minutes.

I show up to install a door, which is in the back yard 200 feet from where I park and the gate is on the opposite side of the yard.

Pull trim, wall falls apart, opening is too small and too large at the same time. Shim and enlarge opening, repair missing flooring under door, figure out how to install metal sill flashing in a rounded off and bowed opening, then figure out how to install patio door in same bowed opening while kneeling in dog crap, get door in opening, realize wall thickness is different on each side, make fillers of two different sizes after dragging my table saw 200 feet through the gate on the opposite side of the yard, get fillers pinned in, install new trim because old trim was eaten by same dog whose crap is on my knees and in the seat of my truck when I kneeled on it to grab the paper towels, putty holes, even though old trim was fasten with 16 penny spikes, ask homeowner if they have the matching paint, nope, drive 20 minutes across town, get paint, drive 20 minutes back, touch up paint, and caulk, pack up tools, go get screw driver to fix other door since I'm here, look at this other thing that is loose, fix two other door locks since I'm here and their kid is left alone and the locks haven't worked in 2 years, but since you are here...

Charge 500 dollars labor and leave after 9 hours and the homeowner wonders why I charged so much just to install a door because there was already one there and it should have been a quick fix and their brother said he could do it in an hour or so while drinking beer with his buddies.

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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I calculate my rate at about 65/hour. + But service calls much more.

For some reason if you come and do a three hour repair @75/HR no one bats and eye but take 80hr of my time @65 even 60 + supplies and suddenly there a mathematical disconnect.

Service calls charge more to make up the down time. Some guys avoid any time consuming work. Lots of Roof repair and chimney hustlers out there. I like service calls in between more involved work it's ideal.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

VinylHanger said:


> Pretty much my take.
> 
> Electrician pulls one wire, cuts in a box, hooks up wire, puts on plate charges 350 bucks and homeowner is happy he could get there no matter the cost. Leaves after 30 minutes.
> 
> ...




Spot on. 

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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

VinylHanger said:


> Pretty much my take.
> 
> Electrician pulls one wire, cuts in a box, hooks up wire, puts on plate charges 350 bucks and homeowner is happy he could get there no matter the cost. Leaves after 30 minutes.
> 
> ...



Small jobs and repairs are my niche.

I try to dissuade people when I give estimates. Tell them they may be scared off when they get my quote.

Many times they are fine with it, sometimes I never hear from them again.


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

Maybe you should change it to $1000.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Why do you think they call what we do a trade?


Labor for cash > ie: a trade.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Leo G said:


> Why do you think they call what we do a trade?
> 
> 
> Labor for cash > ie: a trade.


Unless you’re walmax and frame roofs for free.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Big Johnson said:


> Plumbers and electricians require 8 years of experience to become a licensed contractor. Carpenters can spend a few hundred bucks and a week online.


Yeah, few hundred and a week online and this shouldn't be any problem:


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

No but they can try and that’s the point. Anyone can get a license to be a carpenter, not so with MEP’s. The carpentry market is saturated, has nothing to do with hacks or non hacks, those exist everywhere: Doctors, cops, lawyers, insurance brokers, mechanics, MEP’s, pilots, Uber drivers, granite installers, police officers, Governors, former VP’s, senators, accountants, cashiers, nurses, shelf stockers, burger flippers, etc etc etc.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Kowboy said:


> Yeah, few hundred and a week online and this shouldn't be any problem:


I had two years go situation guy called me to do such stairs but only if I can do for around 17$/hour because he already spent a lot at sheetrockers and painters.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Big Johnson said:


> The carpentry market is saturated, has nothing to do with hacks or non hacks, those exist everywhere:


This is why I say to customers all time - put me in one room another carpenter in another and you choice who do better job.
Problem in carpentry guy can do poor job but again job is done. In electricity or plumbing poor job make big damage.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

People expect operational construction they are purchasing appeal.

That's how the service industry is. You ever watch one of these shows "Below Deck"? This is a yacht crew that takes people out and operate on a tip. They pay a ton of money to go on these trips and if the food is no good from the chef no one cares about anything else. Not entirely but everyone else is effort goes unnoticed.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

tipitop said:


> This is why I say to customers all time - put me in one room another carpenter in another and you choice who do better job.
> Problem in carpentry guy can do poor job but again job is done. In electricity or plumbing poor job make big damage.


In my experience MEP’s always do sloppy work because they figure it will be covered up and doesn’t really matter. I had one job where the electrician set a bunch of boxes a quarter inch or so proud of the drywall. When they came back and finished it out there was a nice sized gap between the plate and drywall. I had to call them back to come fix it, they acted like it was common and no big deal.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Neat service panels and boilers with neat parallel wiring or plumbing is great. Like most things you know that trade guy cares about his work and someone you want on your job.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Texas Wax said:


> I'd seriously take on a Tipi, he has some grit and some higher learning over just about anyone Ive hired or worked with in the last 15 years. Well if he was open to exploring the multiple ways of doing things.
> 
> 
> What I call a good carpenter today was the standard run of the mill from 30-35 years ago. Excellence in both knowledge and efficiency is hard to find.
> ...


Thanks for that. Personally I'm gifted in math. Why I finish in carpentry? Didn't have money for f U. 
Why I wrote it? It is not that USA do not have sharp people, in this case math sharp. If you are good in math and you have common sense what to do in life you go into electrical engineering, finance, IT. 
IMO it catch genetics and eugenics if you want. More and more Latinos are in construction and they are not the best, from my experience, in math. However math is not key in construction, rather hard work and Latinos are good at it. No you will not find so many people good in math out at job places and always will be less and less.
Your best bet is some immigrant, legal or illegal, from Northern eastern Europe. Romanian, Bulgarian or Albanian, not so much. You will not see German or Swede roaming USA construction sites for sure.

So how I'm so good in trade if I'm alike Bulgarians and Romanians? I'm a Croat from Herzegovina. We are legendary tradesman all across Balkans and wider. Ask Australians what they think about Croats tradesman to. Where it come from. I'm not religious but it come from religion and there in Herzegovina is that order of St Francis. Priest of that order are at theirs own legendary in many hand on skills, winery, masonry and such bs.. After all someone had to build with his two hands all that buildings along Adriatic sea in Croatia two thousand years go. There wasn't St Franciscans than but we was. That said it would be better if Franciscans teach us Jews way but it didn't happen.

Edit. If you need angle for cutting roofing edge crown just let me know slope of roof and spring of crown and I will let you know bevel and miter.


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