# Question on pouring a front stoop?



## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

I need to build a set of 2 steps that are coming off a existing stoop. To save time i just want to form it and pour the entire 2 steps out of concrete. Can i just form it and pour it in one shot? Or do i need to pour a footing wider and longer then the steps and then form the steps?


Its 2) 14" steps 16 feet long.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

As long as the soil calculations show that the footprint will support the weight. Plus frost issues, which I don't know about.


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

We have a 42" frost line here. If i blocked it up i would pour a 8inch footing at 42", then just block it up. I am just trying to save some time and not loose time waiting for a footing to cure.


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

Dig the frost footers and then form the steps, you may have to put some long stakes down to the bottom of frost footing to hold the step forms up to the grade you want and then pour the hold thing 1 pour.


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

jmic said:


> Dig the frost footers and then form the steps, you may have to put some long stakes down to the bottom of frost footing to hold the step forms up to the grade you want and then pour the hold thing 1 pour.


Do i need form the bottom wider?


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

I would dig a footing trench 2 feet wide and to frost the full length of these steps.

If there is foundation wall there drill some rebar dowels into it.

I would then "hang" my forms and stake it real well a few feet back.

Pour all the concrete at once.


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

ruskent said:


> Do i need form the bottom wider?


I don't think it's necessary.


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## Vinny (Jul 21, 2007)

Rusk, you may want to take some time to drill and pin the new pour to the existing concrete. This way, if for any reason theres settlement at the new pour it cant seperate. This wont take long to do and will be worth the time in my experience.

Good luck, im sure you'll be fine


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

Vinny- Please explain the correct way to drill and pin new concrete to existing.


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

Matt, do you have a hammer drill with a masonry bit?

Drill some holes in the existing concrete stoop and insert rebar into it, to tie the existing into the new pour.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

If you've got good bearing at the frost line
don't worry about pinning it, it's just steps.
If you're still in fill when you get to frost line....
then maybe.


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

Ok cole thanks.


The house is 50 + years old. Any fill has long settled i am sure.


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

neolitic said:


> If you've got good bearing at the frost line
> don't worry about pinning it, it's just steps.
> If you're still in fill when you get to frost line....
> then maybe.


I agree, but I would still do it.


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## works4me (Sep 1, 2007)

I'm not a concrete man, but I agree with pinning it. I've inspected several home and seen the steps like this slip down, making the top step about 12" to the porch when all the rest are 8". What a mess that could have been avoided.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

works4me said:


> I'm not a concrete man, but I agree with pinning it. I've inspected several home and seen the steps like this slip down, making the top step about 12" to the porch when all the rest are 8". What a mess that could have been avoided.


Caused by:
A) building on fill
B) floating above frost 
(in which case pinning will simply lead to 
tearing up the step or what it's pinned to)


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Cole said:


> I agree, but I would still do it.


Belt *and* suspenders guy! :laughing:


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## works4me (Sep 1, 2007)

Very true Neo, it is more of a parachute than a solution, and not really necessary if done properly like you stated. And yes if done with improper installation can cause other problem you stated - good points. I must be a belt AND suspender type also LOL.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

In real life?
My suspenders hook onto my belt! :laughing:
Seriously, I just don't like to see young guys 
start doing stuff without knowing *why* they're doing it.
Sort of gets passed down like a voodoo ritual. :blink:


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

*pinning into existing*

they sell epoxy in caulking tubes at home centers now for about seven bucks a tube. use #4 rebar pins about a foot long (1/2 inch masory drill) drill into existing . epoxy the pins into existing. then pour. You should be able to epoxy about 12 pins per tube. assuming what you are drilling into is not hollow. if it is you will need the hilti epoxy screen inserts before inserting epoxy and pins. also blow out the holes with air compressor. By using epoxy it will help prevent the pins from pulling out if ice gets between the new and old work.


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## Vinny (Jul 21, 2007)

works4me said:


> Very true Neo, it is more of a parachute than a solution, and not really necessary if done properly like you stated. And yes if done with improper installation can cause other problem you stated - good points. I must be a belt AND suspender type also LOL.


I do it as an insurance policy. It dont take a squats worth of time to do and how does anyone know how well an area is compacted or settled. Old homes were dug maybe with a track loader which means it was way over dug and newer homes done with an excavator are over dug quite a bit for safety and footing drains. Unless you have the bearing soil density tested by an engineer and have them sign off on it, do you (rusk) want to be there in a year from now redoing that stoop because you were too lazy to take a couple of hours and $10.00 worth of rebar to make sure you wont need to go back? 

We do alot of Driveways and thier related masonry. In that masonry work we inevitably end up with front walks(from thier new driveway to thier front door). And of course, the front steps. I cant tell you how many front steps/stoops pull away from the main fondation, even when thier dug all the way down to the original footing depth. If it aint attached, it can move away, bottom line.

Rusk, do yourself a favor, take the time and drill and pin it. Theres nothing to it, your client gets added value, and you'll sleep better.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Vinny said:


> If it aint attached, it can move away, bottom line.
> 
> Rusk, do yourself a favor, take the time and drill and pin it. Theres nothing to it, your client gets added value, and you'll sleep better.


Now there is some good advice.

I would be putting some steel in those steps anyway. You are working "high end" make sure it is "bomb proof."




rusk said:


> The house is 50 + years old. Any fill has long settled i am sure.


That could be true but is also a misconception that gets a lot of guys in trouble. It may be done settling all it is going to until you increase the load which is on that "settled" soil.

I figure those steps with frost footing will run you around 5 yards of concrete, close to 20,000 pounds of load.....do you really want to risk that this soil will not compress under that sort of load?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

That is why you should do a a quick and dirty soils calculation. No need to get deep into it, just calculate the total weight of the pour, the size of the footprint, and make sure the soil can take it (the standard bearing chart has the safety factor built in and assumes undisturbed, non saturated soil. Here is one I found online: http://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete/footing_fundamentals/why_soils_matter.htm )

So, assuming your steps are 2.3'x16' (36 SqFt). Using the 20,000# figured above, you get 555 Pounds per Sq Ft, which is safe on pretty much any decent (un-saturated, compacted) soil, with no need for a spread footing.

And pinning it is well worth time and effort, since the natural tendency will be for the steps to rotate out away from the wall.


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