# I have never seen a screw up this bad



## jmacd

I get a call to look at a ladies yard last week, she wants the yard graded and and a lawn installed. Her boyfriend rented a skid steer and made a mess so she wanted it fixed. Home was a new modular built in May. I go there and look at the yard and she mentions that she wants a patio at some time so I sell her a new yard and a stamped concrete patio. The home has a walk out basement, I am at the home to sign contract and get deposit and notice that some #2 stone and fabric at grade level, with out giving away the problem, I want you guys see the photo's first. Forget the fact that the bedding isn't there or fabric. She also has her sdr35 sewer clean out sticking up threw her stone driveway about 6". I gave her my lawyers name. Winter is on it's way, I have two possible fixes in mind what do you guys think? 








this photo is taken from the area below window on the right. Notice the foundation coating, these guys had to know but didn't care.








as you can see I brought my dozer but never got a chance to use it


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## Leo G

Looks like somebody forgot to continue the foundation footing along the length of most of the house. Looks like there is a pc of repbar there so they could continue the footing and have a good tie in point. The fix is going to be costly.


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## oldfrt

Other than what you mentioned, and no waterproofing on the foundation,those footings are quite shallow,looks like you'd have to backfill clear up over those windows,hopefully the step in the footing is far enough past the opening to fit anything other than a narrow passage between the walls you'll have to erect to hold the backfill in place.


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## jmacd

Thats a pin we put in place to determine patio elavation has nothing to do with the problem. The footing is in place so the home has a footing, no problem with that but it does have to do with the footing.


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## jmacd

Oldfart, bingo the footing has less that 20" of cover, closer to the door it is like 4" of cover, code is 48" they should of stepped the footing down at the corners of the home because of the windows on both sides. This home was built with no walk out basement in mind. What's the fix?


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## jarhead0531

With a walkout basement like that the foundations whould have been much deeper, especially in upstate NY. Your frost line has to be about 48" and I can see some cracked walls happening this winter.


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## jarhead0531

Damn it, you obviously type faster than me. No idea on the fix but it is gonna be $$$$$$$$$.


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## oldfrt

jmacd said:


> what's the fix?


 
lawsuit !!!!!


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## oldfrt

Could you put up retaining walls on each side of the cellar entry 6'-8'out and have it open into the new patio.
You'd have to address the curtain drains(cut and run to Daylight behind the retaining wall).
If the windows are too low,I don't think window wells will work,so that would have to be addressed.
Or,
Sell her on a nice big addition back there so the new foundation could be done right and some carpenters could get some work out of it!!


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## jmacd

Lawsuit yes, she has to pay to get it fixed in the mean time before winter, I am thinking underpinning so we will see how it shakes out. I could of just went and did my part and cashed the check but I try and do rite by every customer.


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## jmacd

Oldfart, that was the other solution I suggested, she said that she didn't want walls, you would also have to do new windows 48" higher than the footing. This would be the cheapest fix.


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## neolitic

I see where the top of the
footer is, but did you dig down
to see the bottom?
I have poured extra deep footings
to avoid extra block or form work.


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## wellbuilthome

Ive add additions to 3 houses this year with the tops of the footing sticking out of the ground ?
I really cant see any one having a huge problem with it . If the basement area is heated the ground doesn't freeze next to the house any way . 
You can add a frost wall across the back of the house with some polystyrene foam to keep it warm . We have 48" footing depth here but most homes don't have more then 30" of depth . John


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## JonM

She could always close up the door and use window wells for the windows...frost line is measured from the bottom of the footing and upward...looks like you should just make it from the window down...That would be the cheapest way out.


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## jmacd

That could be the case but those footing would have to be 48" tall. The footing drain would be deeper also. I did not dig any further wasn't my scope of work, remember I was there to install lawn and patio did not want to dig up her yard. I stopped at this point. I did call the builder and he said he thought his excavator stepped down at the corners. The inspector is coming Tuesday. I would be happy to go and do my part get paid and move on.


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## Framer53

If that is the top of the footer, why not insulate with 4" of foam.
Can't remember the term for this. She might loose the sliding door.


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## tgeb

neolitic said:


> I see where the top of the
> footer is, but did you dig down
> to see the bottom?
> I have poured extra deep footings
> to avoid extra block or form work.


I have to agree w/neo.

The foundation guys here will dig to frost and fill the trench with concrete, then set panels on that. 
Or they may step the footer down and use short panels on the bottom to make up the difference. More investigation is needed here.

The photos indicate that this was planned as a walk out condition, the foundation coating line would lead me to believe it has a frost footing along the back wall starting at the corners.


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## wellbuilthome

I think Neolitiic has a point , you could be looking at the step down point .
I use 3' thick footing all the time for additions . 
The rear wall could be dug down and the footing could be there .


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## jmacd

wellbuilt, code is 48" and we get well below "0" here for weeks at a time so the ground does freeze "hard" for months. I have dug thru 36" of frozen ground before in January, if this was my new home I would not want to worry about "what if" my footing moves. This is not what I would call "best practise" and it sure doesn't pass code, unless Noelitic is correct. Remember this is not anymore of a concern of mine except that I know that this was built wrong if Noelitic is wrong, still not my responsibility to prove that it was built correct. I would be glad to drag my digger over there and dig it up if the customers wants to pay me to do so.


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## wellbuilthome

jmacd said:


> That could be the case but those footing would have to be 48" tall. The footing drain would be deeper also. I did not dig any further wasn't my scope of work, remember I was there to install lawn and patio did not want to dig up here yard. I stopped at this point. I did call the builder and he said he thought his excavator stepped down at the corners. The inspector is coming Tuesday. I would be happy to go and do my part get paid and move on.


 I would have kept the drain at top footing hight so it could be dug to daylight .


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## jmacd

Wellbuilt that is a step down point but if thats the case the step doesn't start before the window but after the window so your distance between the bottom of the window and top of footing is less that 18", closer to the door is like 6"


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## mics_54

48"??? wow thats deep. Are you sure new york code is that deep?


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## Leo G

I know CT is 42" and that is iffy sometimes. But as of late it is overkill because of the low temps in winter are really not that severe.


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## wellbuilthome

jmacd said:


> wellbuilt, code is 48" and we get well below "0" here for weeks at a time so the ground does freeze "hard" for months. I have dug thru 36" of frozen ground before in January, if this was my new home I would not want to worry about "what if" my footing moves. This is not what I would call "best practise" and it sure doesn't pass code. Remember this is not anymore of a concern of mine except that I know that this was built wrong and informed the customer.


I realize its cold up there but in the dead of winter you still don't freeze up to the house . We've dug 100s of additions with pick and shovel and we start at the house and dig out cutting the ground with jack hammers . I love my job .


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## jmacd

Every set of plans I have looked at state 48" of cover, even if it was 40" this home still is not enough. neolitic, mentioned he pores extra tall footings to save on form work but here the footings are formed anyways to save on concrete, concrete cost more than the forms. You just can't dig a trench perfect enough to do a trench pour and definitely not 48" deep with out benching it back some. The inspectors I have worked with don't like trench poured footings. The windows is what the problem was, the footing guys didn't consider the windows. I just did a home like this last summer and the entire back wall was stepped down at the corners and so your footing on that side of the home was 48" below basement slab. Good discussion, this is why I posted, when I looked at it I just stopped, didn't want to add to the problem.


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## jmacd

Are you talking about at ground level? I don't think a home can give off that much heat, in a new home. Even so, are you willing to chance a footing moving on you and the possibility of every thing above it cracking.


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## mics_54

I *think* you can insulate to meet code footing depth.


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## oldfrt

Here and I'm sure most places,
The Building Inspector has to pass waterproffing befrore backfill.
Since there is no WP to the footng there,it seems to drop off quick at the right corner of the house,maybe Neo is right.

If not,the BI dropped the ball,and should have caught it!
The bottom line will be what the BI will require,and I certainly hope it's not the same one that did the initial inspection.
He's going to get into the picture at some time,so get hip opinion.
I'd like to hear him start tripping over his words,if the fault falls on him.

The insulation idea sounds great but in those extremey low temps,I can't see it getting things up to code.


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## mics_54

2006 IRC R403.3 Frost Protected Shallow Foundations.


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## Kent Whitten

Now hold on a sec, I obviously would want to do things right, make it right, tell the HO that something is very wrong, but the 2 photos I see, the lower one clearly shows that there WAS grade there and I would guess that someone wanted a daylight basement after the fact and didn't give a rats ass or didn't know any better.

I'm all for doing things right, but before we go and tell this lady to sue someone, we better find out who made it a daylight. It could have very easily started as a regular backfill and someone wanted to make use of that basement.

Though the damp proofing is a mystery and doesn't look right.


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## oldfrt

mics_54 said:


> 2006 IRC R403.3 Frost Protected Shallow Foundations.


 
Interesting,but:

*
Thickened slab must extend 12 inches​below finished grade.

and:

Install two #4 rebar continuous around the perimeter with a
minimum 20 inch lap and laps properly tied. (Rebar must be bent
thru the corners) Support the rebar 3 inches above ground and 3​inches in from the edges
*


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## jmacd

framerman, interesting post, from what the HO told me here are the facts according to her.

Home was built in May. Modular home, two contractors used, home builder from sill plate up and excavator from sill plate down. Excavator was recommended by home builder. HO had stamp plans from engineer and they state 48" of cover. Walk out was in the original plan. Home inspector approved work as it progressed. All that being said I think it falls on the inspector first but the excavator did the digging and masonry so he had to realize that those footing were wrong ( if neolitic is wrong) and didn't want to spend the money to fix. I understand that and can completely see that happening. The problem revealed itself when the HO's boyfriend moved all the fill away from the wall in a attempt to grade it himself with a rented skiddy. I do not want to be involved at all except to not put my work on something that would have to removed if HO has to fix the problem. She asked my for a good lawyer I gave her mine. I don't see any other solution because it come down to who pays for the fix. The HO says see wants me to do the fix but has to get the money from somewhere. I won't do anything until inspector see's it and engineer recommends fix. If this is the case she should not have to rebuild a brand new home.


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## mics_54

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/code/rcfaq.htm#footings



Q. _Does the residential code require footings to frost for all buildings?_ 
A. No. Section R403.3 entitled “Frost protected shallow foundations” provides that for buildings where the monthly mean temperature of the building is maintained at a minimum of 64ºF (18ºC), footings are not required to extend below the frost line when protected from frost by insulation in accordance with Figure R403.3(1) and Table R403.3.
EXCEPTIONS:
1. No foundation not so protected may be attached to frost-protected shallow foundations.
2. Unheated garages, porches, utility rooms and carports shall not be permitted to be attached to dwelling units with a frost-protected shallow foundation.
 Materials used below grade for the purpose of insulating footings against frost shall be labeled as complying with ASTM C 578.


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## mics_54

Here is another article on FPSF construction

http://www.nesea.org/blog/2009/02/u...ost-protected-slab-foundation/comment-page-1/


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## jmacd

Do you think that footing is protected in any way, that would have to be determined. That would also have to be approved by the local inspector for the town and that would be an exception to any thing I have seen for my surrounding towns. Slab on grade buildings have footing with 48" of cover. You guys are over thinking this thing, contractor made a mistake and has to fix it, happens every day to the best of us. I just hope I never make one this costly but that's why he and I have insurance.


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## oldfrt

mics_54 said:


> http://www.dos.state.ny.us/code/rcfaq.htm#footings
> 
> 
> 
> Q._Does the residential code require footings to frost for all buildings?_
> A. No. Section R403.3 entitled “Frost protected shallow foundations” provides that for buildings where the monthly mean temperature of the building is maintained at a minimum of 64ºF (18ºC), footings are not required to extend below the frost line when protected from frost by insulation in accordance with Figure R403.3(1) and Table R403.3.
> EXCEPTIONS:
> 1. No foundation not so protected may be attached to frost-protected shallow foundations.
> 2. *Unheated garages, porches, utility rooms and carports shall not be permitted to be attached to dwelling units with a frost-protected shallow foundation*.
> Materials used below grade for the purpose of insulating footings against frost shall be labeled as complying with ASTM C 578.


 
I would take this to say that the complete foundation would have to be a “Frost protected shallow foundation.”

 Am I reading this right?


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## mics_54

Actually there's no doubt it isn't protected..we can see that...but insulation MIGHT be added to protect a shallow foundation. As far as what an inspector will allow will depend on the inspector and any local code authority.


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## rbsremodeling

I do not see anything wrong with the footing viewing the pics provided. I think you jumped the gun on calling out the BI and talking that sue crap.

Did you dig down beside the footer to check the depth??

How old are you?


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## mics_54

> I would take this to say that the complete foundation would have to be a “Frost protected shallow foundation.”
> 
> Am I reading this right?


Since the issue in such cases is "liability" my guess would be ..yes I'm not sure retrofit in the shallow portions only would be acceptable. It wouldn't hurt to ask before committing to other mitigation efforts.

Who knows...he may dig down and find insulation is already there. in the step down portions below the door.


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## jmacd

rbsremodeling, I had my 6th birthday last week and this was all a big test to pass the time on Sunday. On the digging part why don't you come on out I will give a shovel and you can have at it :whistlingI pay well below minimum wage so that should work for ya

Mics, I am not committed to any litigation not in my scope of work to talk to lawyers.


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## maq

Just think you could of already check the footing seen that it wasnt a mistake and maybe had a signed contract getting ready to start work.


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## naptown CR

TimelessQuality said:


> Yeah.. I bet you could answer it all right there.. cut or poured?


That would be a good clue


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## neolitic

jmacd said:


> just because of you guys I am going over there now to dig that stuppid footing up, back in a hour!


Must have found a picnic
on the way home. :laughing:


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## naptown CR

neolitic said:


> Must have found a picnic
> on the way home. :laughing:


Really I check pack periodically. Either that or he is digging a very deep hole looking for the bottom of the footing


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## rbsremodeling

naptown CR said:


> Really I check pack periodically. Either that or he is digging a very deep hole looking for the bottom of the footing


If he went out there and found a footing in place would you really want to post back to us?:laughing:

if its there he is driving home doing 5 mph


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## mics_54

maybe it was REALLY deep!


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## JDavis21835

Or hes looking for some crow


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## loneframer

Maybe the original contractor met him there and buried him with the dozer.


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## neolitic

Hope he's all right, but I sure am curious.


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## naptown CR

loneframer said:


> Maybe the original contractor met him there and buried him with the dozer.


:laughing::laughing::w00t:


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## HusqyPro

He's gonna hit China in 5, 4, 3, 2....


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## jmacd

You guys will have to wait till tomorrow wife had a party to go to. Here is a photo of the clean out I mentioned. 








easy fix just needs a cast lid before they plow the driveway.


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## Tom Struble

your wife was going to do the diggin?far out:thumbup:


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## PA woodbutcher

tomstruble said:


> your wife was going to do the diggin?far out:thumbup:


 
Now that was funny:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## oldfrt

You guys will have to wait till tomorrow wife had a party to go to. 

It was suppose to be a day off anyways.


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## neolitic

jmacd said:


> You guys will have to wait till tomorrow wife had a party to go to. Here is a photo of the clean out I mentioned.


Cool, we were worried that you
got lost in the time space continuum.
After all the job must be at least
a billion light beers away.


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## rbsremodeling

So the footers were there cool did you apologize to the builder? :laughing:


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## naptown CR

jmacd said:


> You guys will have to wait till tomorrow wife had a party to go to. Here is a photo of the clean out I mentioned.
> View attachment 22895
> 
> 
> easy fix just needs a cast lid before they plow the driveway.


If that is 6 inches above the drivewaqy, I am hung like an elephant!


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## rbsremodeling

naptown CR said:


> If that is 6 inches above the drivewaqy, I am hung like an elephant!


it actually looks like a photoshopped picture to me.


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## naptown CR

Hey Rory 
Bored s**tless yet
Lets go clubbing


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## rbsremodeling

naptown CR said:


> Hey Rory
> Bored s**tless yet
> Lets go clubbing


Wife just got back I am on lock down:shutup:


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## naptown CR

Too bad!Just getting sstarted
Actually getting close to the bottom of the "project"


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## naptown CR

rbsremodeling said:


> Wife just got back I am on lock down:shutup:


Too bad How about these choices?
Good Guys?
Camelot?
Shepard Park?
Night Shift?
McDougals?
Baltimore the Half block?


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## rbsremodeling

naptown CR said:


> Too bad How about these choices?
> Good Guys?
> Camelot?
> Shepard Park?
> Night Shift?
> McDougals?
> Baltimore the Half block?


Camelot


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## naptown CR

One hour
JK how about lunch tomorrow


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## rbsremodeling

I can do Wed or thursday.


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## naptown CR

Wednesday 1:00 you have my e mail if something comes up


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## HusqyPro

I was watching season 5 of No Reservations with Anthony Bourdain. There's some good Vietnamese and Ethiopian restaurants in the beltway. Watch the episode (available instantly on Netflix) and eat some good food. That Ethiopan place looked like it rocked.


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## rbsremodeling

naptown CR said:


> Wednesday 1:00 you have my e mail if something comes up


ok sounds good


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## jmacd

I will let you guys make your own conclusions. :whistling
























Windows are formed in not cut. Forget the lack of bedding and fabric no big deal rite. I didn't want to be the building police, the customer gave me a deposit before we started. I was thinking just do my work and get the money but I do live by some ethics, if it was my home I would want some one to tell me.


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## silvertree

Your right!
Now you can feel good having proved it. Time to move on after all that, up to the HO to decide what to do.


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## neolitic

Now she's got facts.
Good for you. :thumbsup:


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## rbsremodeling

What does the tape measure say? I can't make it out?


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## jmacd

Tape says 72". Just count the big black marks.


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## TimelessQuality

I apologize for my earlier comment...I might have been a little saucy yesterday:whistling

How about a skinny raised bed to get the grade up? Part of your patio


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## jmacd

I just got a call from the BI and he tripped all over his tongue. He says well I will go take a look, maybe she has to insulate the footing, blah,blah,blah. Same guy that did the original. I don't see why the HO should pay for any of this but what do I know. I also don't want to piss the BI off I might need him some day if I work in this town again. I should be working anyways, have a commercial quote to get out. I am Having a hard time letting this go, it bothers me, it shouldn't but it does.


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## neolitic

It bothers you because it sucks
to get what should be a nice
straight forward job, then run into 
a stone wall because of someone else's
oversight/FUBAR.


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## mics_54

> I just got a call from the BI and he tripped all over his tongue. He says well I will go take a look, maybe she has to insulate the footing, blah,blah,blah.


He's probably too stupid to read these posts on the internet, right?


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## jmacd

Yah I should should send him a link, he called me a secound time and said we would have to dig down around footing and wrap in 4" of insulation. I said that he would have to give me and the HO a specific plan so I could quote it to the HO. He than says " i really don't like talking to the HO she doesn't know much" I mention to him that she is counting on him to protect her from contractors doing work at her home. I still don't think insulation will protect from freezing but I don't plan on fighting the BI. I do beleive he is trying to protect himself but I don't think I should go over his head. What do you guys think, I can see myself getting in the middle over a little job that should of been done and paid for today.


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## mics_54

> I still don't think insulation will protect from freezing but I don't plan on fighting the BI.


So you don't think bringing the footer up to CODE by adding insulation will protect the footer from frost heave. I don't know why you even contacted the Inspector. 

We've totally avoided the code discussion so far. NY doesnt have the same freeze day index as Alaska (4000) I think NY is 2500. Alaska footers according to code and freeze day index is 42". Several times 48" was mention in this thread. Then you said something about fabric and stone etc. 
The BI will have the last word in compliance.

BTW...be sure to compact that hole you dug out. to 2500 psi :whistling


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## neolitic

Don't know what you guys see.
Looks like plenty of dirt on the 
PT window surround for 4 months
to me.
An odd phenomenon known as rain
can some times wash dirt from
clad windows.
How come no one is suspicious
that bandits stole the deck
from under the 6' slider? :laughing:


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## oldfrt

You can just see the coating in the first pic of the whole back of the house that makes it look like it was done to a step down at the corners.


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## neolitic

Everyone seems to put great stock
in the wisdom of water proofers. :blink:


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## oldfrt

neolitic said:


> Everyone seems to put great stock
> in the wisdom of water proofers. :blink:


 
I was considering the non-wisdom of the BI.
Here no backfilling is done till waterproof and curtain drains get inspected.
You'd think that if the BI saw an exposed footing without the WP he'd fail the inspection.
They do here.They actually require a tar seal at the footing/wall joint.
Basic waterproofing 101 here.

It's would to be interesting to get his take on this.


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## jmacd

I am glad you guys ask. This is what I know. Window and doors and formed in not cut. Dirt on the wall is from rain off of the roof no gutters. BI said that the openings were original but the trim is not what he remembers, he said this because he then said that the trim makes the window look lower, I kid you not he said that :laughing: I think the coating was just omitted for the same reason the footings are not deep enough ( read between the lines). My plan, actually the BI plan is to wrap the footing in 4" of insulation board, side, top and drain pipe. I also plan on wrapping the pipe under the door, the new patio location, with insulation just for good measure. I will take pics. The HO did speak to the original contractor and he gave her a hard time. I quoted a reasonable price for the insulation so she decided to have us do it instead of fighting with the original guy. I asked the BI if he wants to see our work before we back fill he says "no I don't have to". I say I will call you when its ready and I would like you to swing by if possible, Either way I will take lots of photo's. This thread is a great record for future reference if any problems arise down the road. For such a small project this has been very interesting you guys would have to agree. I learned something, get the facts mam, just the facts. So many little lessons to learn and so little time.


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## jomama

neolitic said:


> Don't know what you guys see.
> Looks like plenty of dirt on the
> PT window surround for 4 months
> to me.
> An odd phenomenon known as rain
> can some times wash dirt from
> clad windows.
> *How come no one is suspicious*
> *that bandits stole the deck*
> *from under the 6' slider?* :laughing:


That's one thing I noticed.

I also cant believe, with all the carpenters/builders in this thread, there was no mention to the windows not lining up on each story!:w00t:

jmacd, kudos to you for doing what's right, even if it set you back a ways. 

One more thing, is it common in most areas for an excavator to be a foundation contractor? I know after seeing the work of some of the excavators around here, this definatly wouldn't be the worst mistake they would be making!


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## cexcavation

jomama said:


> One more thing, is it common in most areas for an excavator to be a foundation contractor? I know after seeing the work of some of the excavators around here, this definatly wouldn't be the worst mistake they would be making!


Excavation contractor foundations are probably about as bad as concrete contractor dig-out:laughing:


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## Kent Whitten

jomama said:


> I also cant believe, with all the carpenters/builders in this thread, there was no mention to the windows not lining up on each story!:w00t:


Actually, I saw something more. The bearing points of the windows are directly over the middle of those windows in the basement. I'd doubt from seeing what I've already seen that it is properly constructed and will crack above the basement window.

But I really didn't want to pour diesel on the fire.


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## jmacd

Here is the fix.


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## Framer53

You do know you should have the insulation come out at least 2' from the foundation, right?


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## jmacd

The board perpendicular to the house or parallel to the house or both? The board under the door is 24" perpendicular and parrallel, the boards themselves are 2 x 8 boards. BI said what we we did was more than enough for what ever that means. The more I look at this home the more I realize that any work we do looks like rocket scientist did it compared to what was done prior. Framer you in Utica? Do I know you? Care to give me your name maybe our paths have crossed.


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## mics_54

Well technically the horizontal insulation for zones with a freezing index of 2500 is required to have horizontal insulation 12 inches out from the building except within 40 inches of the corners where it must be 24 inches...The R value in the vertical portions requires R6.7 and the horizontal portions are to be R1.7 and R4.9 ...but who's counting.


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## jmacd

Good point Mics, who is counting at this point?:laughing:


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## oldfrt

Make sure when the BI signs off on this ,you keep a record in a safe place.
I'd reccomend walls on each side of that patio so more fill could be added,but your part looks good.


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## dayexco

i'm waiting for the paul harvey..."the rest of the story"....i'm not yet convinced....i've seen enough soil stains on concrete before....that this was
backfilled up to the bsmt windows...with window wells....and that patio door wasn't there... i think the HO changed their mind mid stream and decided to have a walk out...


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## backhoe1

dayexco said:


> i'm waiting for the paul harvey..."the rest of the story"....i'm not yet convinced....i've seen enough soil stains on concrete before....that this was
> backfilled up to the bsmt windows...with window wells....and that patio door wasn't there... i think the HO changed their mind mid stream and decided to have a walk out...


 
I've been thinking the same thing as i read the last 150 some posts!


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## mics_54

I think the stains are splash from runoff like he said...the wing to the left has the same stains and from the ground level and vegitation it wasn't ever back filled that high there either.


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## cexcavation

mics_54 said:


> I think the stains are splash from runoff like he said...the wing to the left has the same stains and from the ground level and vegitation it wasn't ever back filled that high there either.


I am with Day on the backfill theory. My additional evidence being that those windows and door are not stained a bit. If someone went out and cleaned up those windows and door so well, then the dirt on the wall would at least look a little different in those areas from a hose and soap. Just an observation.


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## neolitic

You guys aren't looking at the PT
surrounds, the dirt on them
matches the stains on the concrete.
It's easier to get dirt to stick to
concrete and naked wood than slick vinyl.


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## Cletus

mics_54 said:


> I think the stains are splash from runoff like he said...the wing to the left has the same stains and from the ground level and vegitation it wasn't ever back filled that high there either.


*puts on Sherlock Holmes hat*

Why does the splash line vary in height? I would expect the distance from grade to the top of the line to be consistent if it was caused by splashing.

edit - nevermind. I just looked at the pictures instead of reading that it had recently been regraded. 

*takes off hat and runs away*


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