# Employee becoming competition?



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

One of my employees has told me he is interested in going out on his own. I am fine with this as I have thought he has what it takes just because of his work ethic. However, I don't think he has what it takes right now and I told him that.

I spent sometime yesterday showing him how much things cost. He never knew how much his hourly rate actually came out to. I feel like if I were to train him more on the business side, it would be a good thing for me because it is one less clueless guy out there.

Have any of you ever trained an employee to be your competition?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I help competition all around me. I was at a competitor's house last night helping him do a kitchen layout.

Contrary to some areas, where I live there is plenty of work. Sharing information that will make local contractors all better can't be a bad thing. It would especially help if a potential customer gets multiple estimates from us :laughing:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

angus242 said:


> I help competition all around me. I was at a competitor's house last night helping him do a kitchen layout.
> 
> Contrary to some areas, where I live there is plenty of work. Sharing information that will make local contractors all better can't be a bad thing. It would especially help if a potential customer gets multiple estimates from us :laughing:


That's why I don't really mind. As I said, I don't think he's ready and hopefully some insight into actual numbers may help. There's more than enough work around here and I'd rather have it be against legitimate start-ups.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

I have.. but I've never looked at it from a competitive standpoint. There is plenty to go around for everyone and I figure that if one of my guys goes out on his own, that means less responsibility and headache for me. 

But I also say that if someone wants to go out on their own, it's not my responsibility to actively help them. In fact it would hinder them. It's really on the employee to pick my brain, come in early, work late, and do anything that he can to learn as much about my operation as he can. 

Having said that, they would have to pay their dues before I let them see what goes on behind the scene. I discovered that they really don't get it and never will get it until they do it themselves. Otherwise they'll just resent me for not running my company the way that they think I could/should based upon what they think they know about being in business.


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## jstanton (Mar 25, 2012)

You may also be able to use him as a sub when needed. He will know how you like things done ect. Get em' green and pay em lean.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris vs me :whistling


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

BamBam- basically I train virtually ALL employees to go out on their own.

A few Have been hired as strictly laborers- it's just a summer job to them humping shingles or shoveling debris in a dump trailer

But if they put on a tool belt ---then I feel it is part of my job to teach them everything they need to know to earn a living doing this.

Remember a few weeks ago,you mentioned you feel bad hiring anybody over 30 in this line of work?- I feel the same way.

Basically, I don't want to hire anybody as an employee in this line of work, if I see that they DON'T have the potential to replace me one day.

So-over time I show them what I charge, how we bill things out, what stuff costs, where we get it from, how I keep records and work our ledger etc.

Over time- how many have actually done it?-maybe 2 that I can think of.

But------- that ain't my fault- I showed them what to do-after that it's up to them!

I am scheduling May 2013 right now,
stephen


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## CarrPainting (Jun 29, 2010)

hey in every other industry all the 'competitors' work together... why is construction different?

Knowledge, is power... problem I have found however is that around here, very few contractors want to 'share' information with some one they deam as a 'threat' or someone who is gonna take work away from them... its weird.


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## oaks renovation (Jun 16, 2007)

I will show or tell my guys anything they need or want to about my business most of the time.
If for example I land a plum of a job I will hold those numbers close to my vest no reason to make them think I am underpaying them.:no:

I also let my guys use any of my equipment or tools for side work if they need it. My guys are young and hungry, I don't always feel like scheduling work every weekend so I will throw them some small jobs here and there and let them make a little extra.

I will tell them the scope of work how to lay it out what kind of money is in the job and how much time it should take them. I know for a fact that they will be going out on their own its just the natural order of things in this business.

I also know that my guys will do ANYTHING for me at anytime at the drop of a hat. I know that I am educating my competition so what I want the best that I can get for my money, besides I am getting older that nads aint what they used to be.

I am looking towards subbing most of my work in the next few years. Hopefully I will have a wealth of resources i.e. subs to draw upon that I have put out there and know what I stand for and will treat an old man right.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Every once ion a while I'll let it "slip" to someone how much I am charging. They usually tell me it is too much. Then I explain how much it really costs to be in business and then they get it. If more guys charged a decent amount we wouldn't have to fight the lowballers as much.


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## UALocal1Plumber (Jun 19, 2009)

If your guy has the drive, he'll be out on his own sooner or later.

You can fire him or spitefully try to slow his progress to protect yourself...

Or you can be his friend and mentor him a little and keep an open relationship with him for years to come...

Either way he'll be out there. I'd rather have the friend.

Keith


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## Miss Brown (Mar 30, 2011)

I ended up doing this work when my GC cut his fingers off...got out, got all his clients and no fking clue how to run a business. It's been 5 years...not long...no kidding CT has been way more helpful than he was. Contractors, even my friends, jealously guard their numbers...it's stupid, because there's enough work that we can all throw each other work and no one starves. I recall getting into this and giving someone a price based on my hourly working for someone else...and they gave me this face... Like, really? That cheap? Well, that was before I knew better, and before I had to fix all my broken tools...jeesh.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Good relationships are always better than bitter ones. When you take the time to work with him he will have a lot or respect for you.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

It's not rocket science. Credits need to exceed debits. Just about anybody who has done roofing, plumbing, tiling...etc. knows the potential damage one can do, and the need to have insurance. Also, anybody ambitious enough to want to start their own gig, knows about licensing and workmans comp. It's simply a matter of choice. Odds are they will start without.

You want to start your own gig? Maybe we can form some type of partnership, otherwise "go-on, git"....Easier said than done, as I have been known to help out a friend who has been in a pickle.


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

We all started somewhere right?

If the guy has the drive to go off on his own and he has expressed it to you, there is a really good chance that at some point he will. 

Better to be on good terms than bad IMO. You dont necessarily have to teach him the business side of things. Bottom line is even if he does go on his own, he still has to get the work. He might find out pretty quick just how difficult it is. Might want to come back to you. Is he a good worker?

I still have a good relationship with the guy that showed me the business, I was straight up with him that i wanted to go out on my own someday the second day i worked for him. I would go out and pull a lead and ask him if he wanted to bid it, he would throw me a finders fee for the job. Id go with him for the estimate and thats how i learned the business side. (part of it anyway:laughing

I never stepped on his toes, because he helped me. If i knew we were bidding against each other, i wouldnt take it. I even threw him a bunch of work when i left the area. 

I know someday someone i hire is going to become a competitor, id rather help him and keep my network open.


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## ryanshull (Nov 1, 2012)

I wish someone would have mentored me in that way, and I bet you do too.


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## Dmitry (Aug 23, 2010)

So many nice people on this forum

In my experience the guys I would work for would protect themselves from extra competition as hard as they could, still remember how on of the guys I worked for the longest was yelling his head off on one of the foremans "I'll fvcking destroy you!!!" because he was gonna go on his own and wanted to bead on one of the condo frames on the big development site we've been working at the moment.

Maybe I wasn't lucky but I never had any of my previous employers give me any business info or teach me how pricing goes etc., and I don't blame them to be honest, 
doesn't make much sense to me either to train my competition.


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

(3) of my former employee's now run roofing companies. When I moved I pushed our main cusomer to use one of them exclusively. They now hold an account worth over 400K a year.

These guys helped me grow my business so when I left I landed a golden egg in their lap. Before I left I would slap them around from time to time. Business is Business!

Needless to say, I love this business for the competitive nature of it. But when you get to know some of these guys. They bleed, fight, and sweat for you. When they express they would like to go out on their own I have always tried to help.


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## Block Worth (Nov 13, 2012)

Sharing knowledge is key to making you a better craftsman and it improves the overall integrity of the profession.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

The only competition you really have are the ones you allow. Its all mindset. Competition can become subs in a heart beat. Just takes the right client and a nice productive conversation.


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## Itrimit (Aug 28, 2013)

Block Worth said:


> Sharing knowledge is key to making you a better craftsman and it improves the overall integrity of the profession.


Sharing your knowledge with a competitor does make you a better craftsman I think it makes you a fool. I also tried taking some of that integrity you spoke of to the grocery store but unfortunately they weren't buying it. I suggest some of you read " The sorcerers apprentice". Why would I spend hours and pour over books then just give it away. That might work on some planet but not this one.


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

Itrimit said:


> Sharing your knowledge with a competitor does make you a better craftsman I think it makes you a fool. I also tried taking some of that integrity you spoke of to the grocery store but unfortunately they weren't buying it. I suggest some of you read " The sorcerers apprentice". Why would I spend hours and pour over books then just give it away. That might work on some planet but not this one.


You reap what you sow.


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## Itrimit (Aug 28, 2013)

svronthmve said:


> You reap what you sow.


That's right if you give all or a great deal of your seeds away you really aren't helping yourself. I don't do other peoples homework for them either.


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

No one taught me jack shiz about the biz side of things when I went out on my own. In fact the guy I was working for said that was the one thing no one would teach you. I struggled for the first couple jobs- did a big deck for about $150 profit  after awhile and talking to lots of guys here I figured it out. It's tough first starting out- you have no history to compare #s to so its a guess. When I first started I had to bid out absolutely everything every time (other than framing which I knew how to bid). Now I have the history and can sq ft price most small to med homes. I talk to my guys about the biz side if there interested, usually while we're driving to the job or at lunch. If one of my guys went out on there own and needed help I'd help em. Not every contractor is like that though. The last guy I worked for and I use a lot of the same subs- I hear through them that he wants me to succeed he just doesn't want to hear about it


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Itrimit said:


> Sharing your knowledge with a competitor does make you a better craftsman I think it makes you a fool. I also tried taking some of that integrity you spoke of to the grocery store but unfortunately they weren't buying it. I suggest some of you read " The sorcerers apprentice". Why would I spend hours and pour over books then just give it away. That might work on some planet but not this one.





Itrimit said:


> That's right if you give all or a great deal of your seeds away you really aren't helping yourself. I don't do other peoples homework for them either.


If you believe all this, what are you doing on an open forum?


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

Itrimit said:


> That's right if you give all or a great deal of your seeds away you really aren't helping yourself. I don't do other peoples homework for them either.


Like I said, you're reaping the poor seed you've sown.


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## Itrimit (Aug 28, 2013)

CrpntrFrk said:


> If you believe all this, what are you doing on an open forum?


There's a difference between talking and discussing things with you than there is is teaching someone in my backyard how to compete with me. I'm pretty sure Denver isn't going to send Seattle their game plan do you? You see it's really pretty simple there going to be competing in the same arena.


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

Itrimit said:


> Sharing your knowledge with a competitor does make you a better craftsman I think it makes you a fool. I also tried taking some of that integrity you spoke of to the grocery store but unfortunately they weren't buying it. I suggest some of you read " The sorcerers apprentice". Why would I spend hours and pour over books then just give it away. That might work on some planet but not this one.


The way I see it is this. If you pass what you know on to someone it's going to benefit you somehow in the long run.

You might end up in a situation where you have to find a job. The person whom you end up working for could have been a former employee. 

Wouldn't it be better for them to remember you as the person who helped them out when they were just getting started?


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

when I started in business I found a competitor that I never met before willing to teach me how to run a business...his theory was to make the competition not under cut the industry..im not sure how I feel about this myself, but at the time it helped me a lot

if he's going to go anyways I would definitely keep him a friend...I have friends who are competitors.....there are so many plumbers out there and were in different ends of the market, so ive never bid against any of them.....

I share an apprentice once in a while with one of them....I call them for advice on issues I haven't run into...

if your helping him make sure he knows its unethical to go after your customers for a year or so....hopefully forever

im unsure how id handle it....eventually every employee will leave you.....whether starting out on his own or with a new employer....its best to leave a friend than an enemy


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

I'm in the Rockefeller camp "competition is a sin". When times get tough and the pickens get lean, like they are in a lot of places now.......I curse the competition. I've had them beat me simply because they were a few $$ cheaper and the uninformed customer wasn't comparing apples to apples


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

As an employer, I can only pay so much, but I make sure my guy's are well paid because I don't want them to leave.
Eventually , if they want to make more, and who doesn't, They will leave and go on their own.
If you fear competition that much, you aren't that good.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

B.D.R. said:


> As an employer, I can only pay so much, but I make sure my guy's are well paid because I don't want them to leave.
> Eventually , if they want to make more, and who doesn't, They will leave and go on their own.
> If you fear competition that much, you aren't that good.


Everyone around here is broke and there's 3 "contractors" behind every tree 

Plus I can do "cheap" work, sure but I like to do the kind of quality work that people talk about for years to come, that's were repeat business and referrals come from. 

I've seen too many people break into this business that don't have any idea. They often end up on their ass 

One of my favorite lines............ 

Many is a child that wonders into the construction business, thinking he can get out of construction what he couldn't get out of Chuck's Taco Hut


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

When times turn lean, every builder and carpenter, becomes a renovation expert.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Itrimit said:


> There's a difference between talking and discussing things with you than there is is teaching someone in my backyard how to compete with me. I'm pretty sure Denver isn't going to send Seattle their game plan do you? You see it's really pretty simple there going to be competing in the same arena.


Yes it is very simple. So simple I knew this would be your argument before you even typed it. 

Someone could become your competition from the forum just by SIMPLY moving to your area. Not a crazy notion.

The way I see it our industry is dying. The work will alway be there but the way it is conducted is being flushed down the pipes. Without the passing on of craftsmanship, quality over quantity, work and business ethics our industry will be easier for the hacks to step in. I understand the need to make a living, but there are some things worth more than money.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Itrimit said:


> There's a difference between talking and discussing things with you than there is is teaching someone in my backyard how to compete with me. I'm pretty sure Denver isn't going to send Seattle their game plan do you? You see it's really pretty simple there going to be competing in the same arena.


Tell me your not comparing the trades to the Super Bowl?

Ummmmm, football is a particular game, set in a particular way, with particular rules, to give a definitive winner. Ours is an obscure game, set in obscure ways, with no defined rules, and a winner only arises when 2 parties are satisfied (homeowner and contractor). An analogy is fine but direct comparison is more than a little silly.

For what its worth 2 of my guys went off on their own and both don't compete with me, both are less expensive but neither have my clientele. Be secure in what you've built, their is no worry of a newbie trying to steal my dinner, he just like everyone, starts with the bread crumbs not the main course (analogy). Its business, part of teaching them business is to show them to start out small so you can eat your own mistakes and work up from there.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

this is a touchy subject with some.. if he leaves your company on good terms make sure he realizes that he will alienate his relatinship with you if he attempts to take your customers unless its for a small project or if you actually refer teh client to him if its a project you dont want to take on..

in the past we have had guys on our crew who have left to do their own thing. some totally respect where hes leaving and never does anything to burn a bridge.. those guys get good referrals from our past clients who want something small done. another guy was a total weasel.. we would refer people who werent clients but wanted work done but were tire kickers.. its a karma thing

as for working with the competition.. theres two types for us the high end guys who put the finished product first like we do and the undercutters who bid on the same jobs and put out a inferior product.. we help out the first of the two all the time if were busy and we will refer people to them or if we dont have much on the go and they are swamped well sub off them and do some framing or window installs.. . the undercutters however dont get anything from us..


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## thill (Oct 2, 2006)

I teach my guys to be good at what they do. After they become good, I usually shift them to piece work so they can make more, and also take on more responsibility.

Once they want to go on their own, I make sure they get insurance and a license, and sub all the work I can to them. I make money without headaches, and I get top-notch work. This keeps the contracts coming in, and everybody wins.

So in my opinion, working together is the best way to go!

-TH


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

The best employees are the ones who will someday go out on their own.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

B.D.R. said:


> When times turn lean, every builder and carpenter, becomes a renovation expert.


I moved over to renovation when new home construction grinded to a halt. Turns out that I grew to like the renovation side better.


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## Itrimit (Aug 28, 2013)

CrpntrFrk said:


> Yes it is very simple. So simple I knew this would be your argument before you even typed it.
> 
> Someone could become your competition from the forum just by SIMPLY moving to your area. Not a crazy notion.
> 
> The way I see it our industry is dying. The work will alway be there but the way it is conducted is being flushed down the pipes. Without the passing on of craftsmanship, quality over quantity, work and business ethics our industry will be easier for the hacks to step in. I understand the need to make a living, but there are some things worth more than money.


Yes and I knew this is exacally the response I'd get from you,blah,blah,blah. Ok yes you are the best psychic in the whole world if that will make you happy I don't want to debate it. As for people moving to my area I doubt it I've erected a large fence around the perimeter of the city and posted "Tresspassers will be shot on sight" signs. As for your statement our industry is dying that really is a crazy notion. The word I think your looking for is "changing" and i have other more bad news,there's nothing you can do about it. It is what market determines. There will always be a market for quality and there will always be hacks but as the gap widens between the rich and poor there're are other factors to consider. Consumers can educate themselves better these days and social media can help them too so it's simply not really all the gloom and doom your preaching.


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## Itrimit (Aug 28, 2013)

Deckhead said:


> Tell me your not comparing the trades to the Super Bowl?
> 
> Ummmmm, football is a particular game, set in a particular way, with particular rules, to give a definitive winner. Ours is an obscure game, set in obscure ways, with no defined rules, and a winner only arises when 2 parties are satisfied (homeowner and contractor). An analogy is fine but direct comparison is more than a little silly.
> 
> For what its worth 2 of my guys went off on their own and both don't compete with me, both are less expensive but neither have my clientele. Be secure in what you've built, their is no worry of a newbie trying to steal my dinner, he just like everyone, starts with the bread crumbs not the main course (analogy). Its business, part of teaching them business is to show them to start out small so you can eat your own mistakes and work up from there.


Ummmm if you want to split hairs over word meanings thats up to you. Comparison is a synonym of analogy in case you didnt know. If you can read some dark foreboding meaning in me mentioning Super Bowl or wish to debate it I can only assume your a Seahawks fan. As for you comparing our industry to an obscure game with no rules how dare you,I'm mortified and don't believe I'll sleep for weeks when I contemplate this silliness of that statement. I think I understand why your employees would leave if your just paying them in bread crumbs.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Itrimit said:


> Ummmm if you want to split hairs over word meanings thats up to you. Comparison is a synonym of analogy in case you didnt know. If you can read some dark foreboding meaning in me mentioning Super Bowl or wish to debate it I can only assume your a Seahawks fan. As for you comparing our industry to an obscure game with no rules how dare you,I'm mortified and don't believe I'll sleep for weeks when I contemplate this silliness of that statement. I think I understand why your employees would leave if your just paying them in bread crumbs.


You seem to ooze happiness all over, no wonder you never have to teach your guys, who would ever want to leave you? My God after your last couple joy filled posts I just want to go hug babies, house the homeless, and feed the hungry.

I love the Seahawks. I also love guys who are selfish and arrogant to boot too. I really like it when someone knows everything and is willing to correct the plethora of morons who want the best for their employees. Thank you.

Caution: dripping sarcasm ahead and behind.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Itrimit said:


> Ummmm if you want to split hairs over word meanings thats up to you. Comparison is a synonym of analogy in case you didnt know. If you can read some dark foreboding meaning in me mentioning Super Bowl or wish to debate it I can only assume your a Seahawks fan. As for you comparing our industry to an obscure game with no rules how dare you,I'm mortified and don't believe I'll sleep for weeks when I contemplate this silliness of that statement. I think I understand why your employees would leave if your just paying them in bread crumbs.





Itrimit said:


> Yes and I knew this is exacally the response I'd get from you,blah,blah,blah. Ok yes you are the best psychic in the whole world if that will make you happy I don't want to debate it. As for people moving to my area I doubt it I've erected a large fence around the perimeter of the city and posted "Tresspassers will be shot on sight" signs. As for your statement our industry is dying that really is a crazy notion. The word I think your looking for is "changing" and i have other more bad news,there's nothing you can do about it. It is what market determines. There will always be a market for quality and there will always be hacks but as the gap widens between the rich and poor there're are other factors to consider. Consumers can educate themselves better these days and social media can help them too so it's simply not really all the gloom and doom your preaching.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

EricBrancard said:


> I moved over to renovation when new home construction grinded to a halt. Turns out that I grew to like the renovation side better.


That happened to us as well. 25 years ago, I did a few remodels and hated it. In the last few years, I have come full circle. Of course, in the last 2 years, new construction here has rebounded and we are back into framing hot and heavy. I still think I will get back into remodeling as I know my framing days are numbered.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

CrpntrFrk said:


>


:laughing:

I need to learn how to do that... Or would that be bad business to teach me being as we're in the same arena?


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Warren said:


> That happened to us as well. 25 years ago, I did a few remodels and hated it. In the last few years, I have come full circle. Of course, in the last 2 years, new construction here has rebounded and we are back into framing hot and heavy. I still think I will get back into remodeling as I know my framing days are numbered.


If I could have stayed just framing high end homes I probably would have never got into the fine carpentry side of things. Remodels suck when you're the carpenter, cookie cutters are about as fun as clockwatching (and cut throat pricing), high end home framing always provided some satisfaction at the end and a challenge during.

Although one of my framers went into remodel carpentry and he absolutely loves it... The challenge was there but I always hated the hurry up and wait that is inevitable on remodels.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

Gentlemen, learn from the master.

Oh you mad!

http://youtu.be/CnhUYWbW3jQ?t=6m1s


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## Itrimit (Aug 28, 2013)

Deckhead said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I need to learn how to do that... Or would that be bad business to teach me being as we're in the same arena?


I'm thinking as children you two might have rode on the same short bus.


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## Itrimit (Aug 28, 2013)

Deckhead said:


> You seem to ooze happiness all over, no wonder you never have to teach your guys, who would ever want to leave you? My God after your last couple joy filled posts I just want to go hug babies, house the homeless, and feed the hungry.
> 
> I love the Seahawks. I also love guys who are selfish and arrogant to boot too. I really like it when someone knows everything and is willing to correct the plethora of morons who want the best for their employees. Thank you.
> 
> Caution: dripping sarcasm ahead and behind.


Ummmm as I look over some of your previous posts I see your a bearded man with an alcohol problem who wants his friends to shoot at him with 9 mm when he's drunk. Let's not forget who dissed who first in this thread before you start crying you've been wronged.


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## Itrimit (Aug 28, 2013)

CrpntrFrk said:


>


Having looked at your numerous posts (read no life)I see your a one man band with no trade who cobbling knick knacks out of what basically sounds like garage. So the answer is no. Even though i feel your not really qualified to post in this thread i feel getting mad at you would be like getting mad at an earthworm.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Itrimit said:


> Having looked at your numerous posts (read no life)I see your a one man band with no trade who cobbling knick knacks out of what basically sounds like garage. So the answer is no. Even though i feel your not really qualified to post in this thread i feel getting mad at you would be like getting mad at an earthworm.


You think what you want. Your pretty upset about something. 

This still makes me wonder what your doing on a forum that embraces the exchange of knowledge when you know it all and have nothing to offer or learn. 

Bring on the insults :laughing:. They are the only way the weak feel they can win a conversation. 

Anyway, it's been nice. For fear of closing a useful thread I am done unless I have something useful to add. :thumbsup:


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Itrimit said:


> Ummmm as I look over some of your previous posts I see your a bearded man with an alcohol problem who wants his friends to shoot at him with 9 mm when he's drunk. Let's not forget who dissed who first in this thread before you start crying you've been wronged.


Man you're ingenious, the tears haven't stopped since I realized the keyboard karate man doesn't like me.

As to the original post, yes if you want to teach him business I believe part of that is telling him he is or is not ready and then helping him get on his feet when he's ready. How did it work out by the way? Topic is really old, might have an outcome by now.


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## Young_Buck (Jul 19, 2009)

It's been said in this thread already, but...

Help him out, and show him how it's done. It's better to have a peer out there with whom you have a good relationship than to have him go out, lowball a bunch of work for 5 years and then go bankrupt. You'll end up competing with his numbers at some point, so why not make sure they're realistic?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

To go back since I started this thread, I spent a lot of time with him showing him all the "unpaid" work. Dragged him along to some 6:30pm appointments, brought him to boring seminars I need to attend for licensing and most importantly, showed him specific numbers of how much an employee costs, advertising, etc.

He decided that it wasn't the right time but we agreed that when he goes on his own, I will help him out as much as possible and offer him sub contract jobs.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> To go back since I started this thread, I spent a lot of time with him showing him all the "unpaid" work. Dragged him along to some 6:30pm appointments, brought him to boring seminars I need to attend for licensing and most importantly, showed him specific numbers of how much an employee costs, advertising, etc.
> 
> He decided that it wasn't the right time but we agreed that when he goes on his own, I will help him out as much as possible and offer him sub contract jobs.


:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Hardscaper (Jun 11, 2014)

My Best friends in this world are also my competition. Literally. We are friends and competitors. Sometimes we compete for the same jobs sometimes we kick them to one another. But we never bad mouth each other and MANY times we bring each other in to help us out in a bind.
I've read all these ideas but I truly believe that competition is what made this country so great.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

itrimit said:


> sharing your knowledge with a competitor does make you a better craftsman i think it makes you a fool. I also tried taking some of that integrity you spoke of to the grocery store but unfortunately they weren't buying it. I suggest some of you read " the sorcerers apprentice". Why would i spend hours and pour over books then just give it away. That might work on some planet but not this one.


isbn?


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

BamBamm5144 said:


> To go back since I started this thread, I spent a lot of time with him showing him all the "unpaid" work. Dragged him along to some 6:30pm appointments, brought him to boring seminars I need to attend for licensing and most importantly, showed him specific numbers of how much an employee costs, advertising, etc.
> 
> He decided that it wasn't the right time but we agreed that when he goes on his own, I will help him out as much as possible and offer him sub contract jobs.


Good for you man! Around here insurance is cheap, and licensing is minimal - and it'll still kick your ass. Not to mention getting leads, and selling them - that's the hard part. Heck, anybody can be taught how to DO the work, getting it is another story. A failure on ANY of these fronts spells disaster, so I'm glad your guy is sticking with you, and he should be glad you aren't one of those jerks that'll fire a guy for wanting to elevate himself.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Hardscaper said:


> My Best friends in this world are also my competition. Literally. We are friends and competitors. Sometimes we compete for the same jobs sometimes we kick them to one another. But we never bad mouth each other and MANY times we bring each other in to help us out in a bind.
> I've read all these ideas but I truly believe that competition is what made this country so great.


The best business relationships I've seen are built on that principle. Do you try to get the job? Absolutely! Do you pull punches? Hell no! Do you engage in bad-mouthing or other shady practices to "win" the job? I sure hope not, or you won't have any friends. Heck, I won't bad-mouth somebody I think is pond scum, why would I do it to a friend?

edit: I've had people say they it was between me and my friend, and I told them that either way they had made a good choice. I don't need any job bad enough to hurt a friend.


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