# Circuit out after kitchen remodel, undercab lights, in over my head. Please help!



## RDBD (Sep 10, 2010)

Please help me figure out where the problem is in this jumble of wires.
My daughter bought a HUD home about a year ago. A long kitchen renovation was finally completed about 6 mths or so ago. The contractor hardwired in 3 under-cabinet puck lights, now the whole circuit is out. (The switch to the cabinet lights shares a box with an outlet, and circuit includes the center kitchen ceiling light, a ceiling fan/light combo that has pull chains, and all main basement lights).

I'm usually pretty good at figuring this stuff out, but since I have never installed puck lights before and am now finding more problems instead of a solution, I'm hoping for some help. I'll be pushing her to get an electrician to check things out but right now, neither of us can afford it, so until then, I would just like to get the circuit working again.

I couldn't find any manuf name on the part of the puck lights that are visible. The lens is stamped with TLF FGGL032 UV, but I couldn't find anything with that. I think they're from Home Depot, and “look” like these, but I can't be sure. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerci...3510044?N=5yc1vZc7phZ1z0u7in#customer_reviews
“If” these are the ones she has, they are by Commercial Electric and the description says “Uses 3-xenon or standard halogen G8 bi-pin bulbs, 20 watt maximum (Xenon bulbs included), 120-volt polarized plugs included (no transformer necessary), Compatible with any standard 120-volt incandescent style dimmer”. The installation instructions show that they come with a “quick connect plug pre-assembled to fixture wire, and an “optional” switch but says nothing about how to hard-wire. There is a warning that says “do not run the Line-Voltage power supply cord through holes in walls, ceilings or floor”. (??)

Anyway...back to the problem a little background. During the kitchen reno, a new dedicated circuit was added for the refrigerator, and a wall was removed to open up the kitchen to the living area. On that wall, there was a switch on both sides. On the living room side was the switch controlled the ceiling fan/lite (with pull chains). On the kitchen side, it was to the kitchen light in the center of ceiling.(Both are now in the same box and currently not working). 
There was also a receptacle on the living area side that had to be moved up, since it would have been covered up by the new peninsula where the cabinets now end. The position of this seems to be where the switches now are, so what box “actually” ended up where is a little confusing at this point. (Luckily I took tons of photos and notes during the process or I wouldn't even know this much, since it's hard to recall what it looked like before now). 

The lights all worked fine for months, but I noticed that the under-cabinet lights had started flickering as was the ceiling light and basement lights. Since I planned to install a dimmer on the undercabinet lights anyway & suspected they were the problem, I pulled out the switch and found more wires than I've ever seen in a box, and noticed the top *terminal screw was burnt (see photo)*. (insulation was partially under the screw so may have been a factor?). Nothing else looked burnt so I cut off the bad part and installed the new dimmer *(see photo of connection with cap removed - this can't be good?)* Also, while removing the old switch, the ground wire that was connected broke, leaving almost nothing to attach to the new dimmer, so, since the dimmer had about 2-3” lead of ground wire extending from it, (& not knowing what else to do), I partially untwisted the ground wires in the back of the box to expose enough of one to wirecap to the ground wire from the dimmer, then tried to make sure they were twisted together as well as possible and wrapped electrical tape around then, hoping it might help but not too confident). 
In the breaker panel, nothing had been updated on the labeling, so I've started mapping that as well. I had removed the panel cover and found that circuits on the left side of the panel are a little loose (I can wiggle them a little with my finger), but the ones on the right side didn't move (this is the side where the problem circuit is). 

Anyway, after replacing the switch, everything seemed to work fine....for awhile. I'm not sure if cutting off the bad connection worked, or if I may have made a better connection by pushing on loose breakers in the left side of panel). We didn't notice any flickering for a while but a month or so later it started again and now those same lights are all completely out. I have been doing a ton of research which is leading me to believe there is an open neutral (in a box, or in panel, I have no idea). I've also picked up a circuit tester, a multimeter, and a Circuit Tracer to help. In case this helps, here are what I show so far on my 2nd go-round with this...(only listing breakers that I think may be relevant). I'm not completely done mapping everything in the house yet, but close.


*The left side – loose breakers*

#7 -The dedicated circuit they added for the fridge seems the most loose. 

#9 – Includes main floor bathroom - there's is a GFCI outlet that doesn't trip when I press the test button. Circuit Tester shows “wired correct” but pressing & holding the red button on the tester doesn't trip it either. Nothing goes out. (Circuit aslo includes all basement outlets – all are 3 prong outlets & installed upside down?) 

#11 - HACR Type circuit (#11) that runs the hardwired microwave that was added, the light and 2 switches on either side of kitchen sink on other side of room as problem (all still working). Outlet to right of sink reads wired correct, to left of sink reads “open ground”.

#13 – Dishwasher (they installed), 2 countertop receptacles (between the problem ones on circuit #18), main floor hallway, and all of upper floor lights and receptacles. (All are working...Counter top receptacle next to the bad undercab lighting one tests as wired “correct”, the one closest to the ceiling fan/lite that is out tests “open ground”.

#15 – Garbage Disposal – this *breaker looked like what could be a melted spot in the middle - see photo* (a new disposal was put in and also works fine). 

*On the right side, none feel loose – but bad circuit is on this side*

#14 – Includes Basement bathroom with a GFCI. Circuit Tester shows Open Ground. Hitting the “test” button on the outlet made the yellow lite on the outlet come on but the bathroom lights stayed on so not sure if on same circuit? I plugged in the Circuit Tester and got no reading, so hit reset button on outlet and the tester then showed “open ground” again. Hitting red button on Circuit Tester changes “open ground” reading to “hot neutral reverse”?

*#18 (Problem circuit)* is what the under-cabinet lights are on as well as the kitchen ceiling light, ceiling fan/light and basement lights..all out.

#20 – Garage – Includes a switch for a 3 way light outside the garage. 1 switch inside garage, other is in same box as the switch for the basement lites that are on same circuit (#18) as the cabinet and kitchen lights that are out. Garage light is still working.

*Undercabinet light switch and outlet -2 photos * – Plug in tester shows open neutral (but yellow center lite is dimly lit?). With the switch in the "on" position, reading changes reading in plug-in tester to “Hot/Ground Reverse”. 
There are a lot of wires in this box so I'm attaching photo. The switch has 2 black wires attached. One black from switch is pigtailed to 3 white wires that feel rubbery with the yellow cap sticking out of the box on the left of photo.. one looks to be ribbed. Other black from switch is pigtailed to 3 other blacks. The outlet has red wire from top right terminal screw capped to 3 black wires with red cap in right side of photo, and lower left terminal screw on outlet has white wire capped to 4 other white wires with the barely visible red cap laying in bottom of box pointing toward the left. There are also 2 yellow caps way in the back left side of the box...One has a black and a white, other looks like it has a black and a red. (Hope that helps). 
Don't want to pull out everything too much yet without a little guidance as to which wire, or set of wires might be the problem. 

Note : Looking back through my old notes from the reno, I now recall that the tile guy that installed the backsplash had mentioned bumping the double switch (center ceiling light & ceiling fan/lite) and that the center lite had gone out (fan/lite was off anyway). I don't recall if he tightened up the connections or if it just started working again so guess I need to go check that one better now too. I have not done anything other that test that one while still intact. With both switches in off position, neon tester lights on the bottom terminal screws, with both switched on, both top and bottom terminal screws lite up (so good?)


Its getting late but I'd still like to get over there today to give this another shot so please offer your expertise. could really use some help. I realize that the open grounds through-out the house should be addressed but would like to focus on getting the circuit working for now.
Is it possible that loose breakers on left could be causing a problem with a breaker on the right side?? 

Thank you in advance & hope that wasn't too confusing.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

Looks like a lot of wires in a box that size


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

There are way too many wires in that box. I seriously doubt the breakers are the problem... With that rats nest of wire, im sure all the other connections they made are in heavily filled boxes and probably a loose connection.

Find the main junction where home run power is feeding those appliances that are dead and check the connections.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Is that lamp cord in that box?


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

The stranded must be from the cabinet puck lighting?

I think OP is really overthinking this. That post is so long ..... 

Those pics dont show us much. Sounds like an obvious loose connection in your branch circuit, especially if it was working before and randomly stopped.

Make sure you dont have any exposed wires so you dont get any more shorts when the wires get jammed back inside that tight box!


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

overanalyze said:


> Is that lamp cord in that box?


Looks like that to me as well. If so, did he run this lamp cord inside the walls to the puck lights?

I don't think that this was a real electrician.

The flickering you describe sounds like a loose connection somewhere. Could be a neutral or a hot loose.

I know you mentioned a budget issue, BUT a seasoned electrician would likely have the problem traced down in anywhere between 5 and 30 minutes, especially if you had all the boxes opened up for him.

Also, I am NOT a fan of line voltage puck lights. I would suggest switching to a low voltage system ESPECIALLY if the "electrician" has lamp cord in the walls.

This is likely a case where you need to find a real electrician to help. (Not lamp cord man)

Don't sweat the scorch mark on the screw, it's common to see.

Sorry I couldn't help or give you more positive news.

(EDIT) PS Did the contractor warranty his work?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I see at least one wire nut with 5 wires coming into it. Any more than three, you tend to fight to get them to all make and keep contact.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Unless that box is 10" deep it looks a tad overloaded. Lamp cord in the walls for the 120v lights?

I had an electrician who did work like that, he became an inspector when his customers found someone else. He used to use his hammer handle to stuff the wires into the box, said all was fine if he could get the cover on.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

If it was an elctrianion it was a bad one


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

rrk said:


> Unless that box is 10" deep it looks a tad overloaded. Lamp cord in the walls for the 120v lights? I had an electrician who did work like that, he became an inspector when his customers found someone else. He used to use his hammer handle to stuff the wires into the box, said all was fine if he could get the cover on.


 haha. Thats when those 4x4x10 come in handy! No hammer mashing required... Just be sure to frame your walls with 2x12 studs!


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Speaking only for myself, sometimes it makes sense to pull all the devices out of the boxes, identify all the conductors coming into the box, then make up the boxes correctly, fixing any problems. That's not advice, just what I would do. If it were my daughter's house, I would definitely do that, because then I would know that things were right.

If I couldn't do that for some reason, I would hire a good electrician to figure it out.


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Speaking only for myself, sometimes it makes sense to pull all the devices out of the boxes, identify all the conductors coming into the box, then make up the boxes correctly, fixing any problems. That's not advice, just what I would do. If it were my daughter's house, I would definitely do that, because then I would know that things were right. If I couldn't do that for some reason, I would hire a good electrician to figure it out.


A lot of the time, that does make sense - especially if youre troubleshooting a mess that you know wasnt done in line with any standard conventions in mind.


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## RDBD (Sep 10, 2010)

Sorry about long post. Got carried away...partially from gathering my diagrams & notes from testing/mapping thus far all into on place just to do the post, while also hoping that the details may help one of you to point me in the right direction. I'm usually only over there for a cpl hrs at a time and not always able to shut down power for long. 

Honestly, I have a healthy fear of messing with electricity so would rather work on any other project than tracing an electrical problem. I've changed plenty of receptacles and switches and installed plenty of light fixtures, but this was the first time ever removing the cover from the panel. I'm not sure where you guys think you see lamp wire. Can you try to describe where to me so I can take another look when I go back over?

With all those wires in the undercab lighting box, I wasn't sure if I should just be checking the wires connected to the outlet and switch, or if the prob could be under any one of those wirenuts. (If the guy that did this work wasn't an electrician, I wouldn't be surprised. The reno was a nightmare). As for the warranty, she's owned the house just over a yr but there may still be time since reno was completed.

An electrician may be able to find the problem in 5-30 minutes but I expect that it will be at least $100 just to show up, and just to fix a connection I've likely shown/described here. If it comes to that, fine, but I'd rather try testing a few more things first if I could figure out what to make of all the wires in this box and which connection is most likely the problem. Guess I'll keep at it.
Thanks anyway.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

With the safety aspect aside, electricity is one of those things where the "try anything" philosophy doesn't fly. Without being there to test which wire is the line vs. which one is the load, there is no way that anyone here can give you useful advice. 

Conventionally the black wire is hot, the white wire is neutral, and the bare or green wire is the ground. HOWEVER, sometimes the roles of these wires change when you get into single pole and 3-way switches when they are used to remotely interrupt power at your lighting fixture vs. supplying power to your fixture. 

I sometimes get into arguments with relatives and friends who try to do their own ceiling fan installation and get frustrated with me because I can't tell them which color wires they are supposed to hook up. They take down the original fan and find a rainbow of colors inside of the box and they expect me to walk them through it over the phone as if I am helping them diffuse a bomb. :laughing:

I think that we have all seen TV shows or movies where someone has a bomb in front of them and some guy on the phone says, "Cut the blue wire..and now connect it to the green and red wire..and now if you unscrew the yellow wire that should do it..." :no: I've always wondered how the guy on the phone always seems to know what colors and what wiring conventions that the bomb maker used.:blink:


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## NJGC (Apr 5, 2014)

Lamp cord is that bit of stranded wire shown in your pictures. 
Who did the "reno" work? I'm assuming the electrician was a sub for whomever was contracted to do the renovations......in that case I would call said individual and request he send over a competent, licensed electrician to fix the obvious flaws in his work. 
It's to late now and honestly I hate 99% of inspectors but this is exactly why you should pull permits and have all work inspected. That ***** show all stuffed into one box and lamp cord behind the walls never would have passed inspection. 
Good luck.


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## RDBD (Sep 10, 2010)

I guess best way to test which wire is the line vs. which one is the load is what I was hoping to figure out in that mess without pulling every connection apart. Its frustrating that I got it to work once....not that it means it was working safely or right.
Gen contractor was let go due to the hacks he was sending so another ended up finishing the reno. Doubt we'll get far with him even we could even get a response at all.

Is the lamp cord the stranded wire shown in the box or the breaker panel? Assumed that white ribbed wire was from (came with) the puck lights.
Guess it's time for an elecrician.


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

I know cost may be a concern but looking at the pic with the outlet, someone with knowledge needs to straighten that mess out. IMHO

I see the green wire on the screw backwards, a common on backwards and a RED wire on backwards the common side. 

In the same picture i see at least 6 whites in a red wire nut , too many for a RED

I know the above is little nit picking stuff but if a fellow dosnt know the basics what else could he have wired dangerously


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Red Adobe said:


> I know cost may be a concern but looking at the pic with the outlet, someone with knowledge needs to straighten that mess out. IMHO I see the green wire on the screw backwards, a common on backwards and a RED wire on backwards the common side. In the same picture i see at least 6 whites in a red wire nut , too many for a RED I know the above is little nit picking stuff but if a fellow dosnt know the basics what else could he have wired dangerously


Seeing wires bent counterclockwise around terminal screws and other little details like that are pretty reliable red flags in my opinion.

Anyone who has any business working on this would, in second nature, never loop backwards on a screw or twist a splice counterclockwise etc.

When ive just finished doing electrical splices, ill be listening to the radio and twist the volume all the way up clockwise trying to turn it off when it really goes the other way.... Nevermind, one of those weird muscle memory things


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## RDBD (Sep 10, 2010)

*Problem Solved (kind of)?*

Weird - I had posted the fix here awhile ago, so not sure why it wasn't here.
For those who actually made it though that long post - Rselectric1 & Dielectricunion were right. It was a loose neutral in the panel that took out the whole branch circuit. I tightened that up and everything was working again! 
Clearly I wasn't comfortable messing around in a box that crowded, let alone the panel to begin with. 

I came back to read through the post again since the damn undercabinet lights went out again, taking the dimmer switch with them. I changed the switch & 1 of the 3 started working. The other 2 had apparently burned out so I changed them & all working again.
I asked my daughter if she realized when they went out. She said she recalled vacuuming basement & vacuum just stopped so she just switched to another receptacle. (Haven't checked that out yet). They are on a different circuit than cabinet lights, so not sure if related? They sure shouldn't be burning out when only a year old.

Still concerned about some of the other things I found while remapping the panel & testing other receptacles in the house, but was sure glad for the help in getting the lights working again!
Thanks all!


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

RDBD said:


> Clearly I wasn't comfortable messing around in a box that crowded, let alone the panel to begin with.


With the panel cover off, the arc-flash risk might be greater than the shock risk.


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