# Failing CPVC



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Let's say you know a guy who is a licensed Florida Building Contractor who posts here regularly. This hypothetical guy specializes in rehanging failed undermount sinks on granite countertops and has posted here extensively. He has performed this job over 40 times without a single callback. The homeowners complain that the plumbers tell them to call a granite guy and the granite guys tell them to call a plumber. Rehanging an existing sink is clearly "maintenance" under Florida law and does not require a permit.This guy never advertises or purports to be a licensed plumber.

Let's say Mr. Hypothetical gently releases another failed sink, however, when it kisses the CPVC supply lines as it goes, one breaks, squirting water all over the tile kitchen floors. When the homeowner has no idea where the shutoff to the home is located, and fails when it is, Mr. Hypothetical keeps his cool and turns off the gusher at the street. He sweeps the water off the tile into the garage and down the driveway, then mechanically fastens the sink as contracted. Noting the broken CPVC inside the wall, clearly work requiring a licensed plumber, he tell the homeowner "No charge" and leaves.

He follows up with the homeowner a day later. The homeowner has had a plumber fix the supply lines, has called his insurance company, and they have installed dryers and pulled the buckling baseboard. Mr. Hypothetical is concerned that the homeowner's insurance may try to blame him for the CPVC failure and subrogate their claim to his liability insurance. Mr. Hypothetical is an ethical contractor and has no problem paying for his mistakes, but with a cursory Google search, he finds that CPVC has a history of failure from something as simple as:



• “Turning off the valve by the toilet and having it snap off in the wall"

"Mopping your floor and hitting the connection, causing it to snap”



http://www.clickorlando.com/news/plumbers-warn-of-cpvc-piping-problems_20151105190735671

Or apparently something as simple as a kiss from a stainless steel sink. 

Mr. Hypothetical's question probably is, 
"What would you do if you where him?"

Thanks in advance.

P.S.:

Mr. Hypothetical was also cool enough to keep a small section of the failed CPVC for forensic testing, just in case. Here it is pictured against a fresh piece of CPVC:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Please don't double post. :thumbsup:

Mr Hypothetical has probably now learned that the first rule when working anywhere near plumbing, the first order of business is to locate the house's shutoff. BTDT.

Doubt you'd have much luck blaming the CPVC regardless of its track record. Bottom line, it worked just fine until you bonked it. I've never had a claim on my liability insurance, so no clue whether you'd be better off paying the whole deal out of pocket, or just letting the beancounters have their way with you. :sad:


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Clearly, had Mr. Hypothetical located the exterior shutoff ahead of time (they're outside here in Florida, no basements), it would have been reasonable for him to assume that the shutoff would function. It did not. Brittle CPVC and failing main shutoffs are not his responsibility.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Bottom line, it worked just fine until you bonked it.


So that's what you'd say to the cleaning lady when she hits it with a mop?


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Sort of comes under "you win some, you lose some".

Carry some wet cpvc cement and a coupling and valve with you. If it happens again (don't worry, it won't since you are prepared), then you can glue a shut off valve on real quick to stop the flood.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

TimNJ said:


> Sort of comes under "you win some, you lose some".
> 
> Carry some wet cpvc cement and a coupling and valve with you. If it happens again (don't worry, it won't since you are prepared), then you can glue a shut off valve on real quick to stop the flood.


plumber told me to keep a sharkbite cap within arms reach


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I wonder if Mr. Hypothetical had called a plumber friend when it initially happened, would the whole mess have been alleviated. Sounds like the clean up was accomplished, but when Mr. walked away and left the scene, the homeowner panicked and did what panicky homeowners do.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> So that's what you'd say to the cleaning lady when she hits it with a mop?


Absolutely. I'd say it with all sorts of commiserating sighs, but the bottom line is that we're responsible for what we do--intentional or not. 

Some days, flipping burgers looks like a good job.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

New procedure - shut off water before beginning work...

Face value, Mr. Hypo broke the pipe, so he's going to get some reality.

Seriously - I assume shutoffs won't work unless I've closed and tested them probably because over 50% of the ones I deal with don't work.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I was going to replace a kitchen faucet cartridge today. Hot shutoff at the sink didn't work, cold shutoff didn't work either. Tomorrow I'll be trying all the other shutoffs on the lines out to the street...


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Just add it to your contract. Client to shut off and turn on water.


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

Sounds like a catchy name for a business:

Hypothetical Home Maintenance 
"repairing your hypothetical problems since 1982"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Warren said:


> I wonder if Mr. Hypothetical had called a plumber friend when it initially happened, would the whole mess have been alleviated. Sounds like the clean up was accomplished, but when Mr. walked away and left the scene, the homeowner panicked and did what panicky homeowners do.


The job probably started at 5p.m. The sink was probably restrapped by8:30 p.m., which is not the best time to call a plumber. The homeowner wasn't panicked ever.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> The job probably started at 5p.m. The sink was probably restrapped by8:30 p.m., which is not the best time to call a plumber. The homeowner wasn't panicked ever.


Which is also not the best time to do work where there is a possibility of a problem. Working with cpvc there is always a possibility of a problem


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

During a tub install a couple weeks ago (partial remodel, finished floor intact), plumber and I were installing a tub. We had banged the toilet supply valve and damaged a coupling that happened to have been placed just below the tile. Next thing you know helper is yelling, "Shut off the water!!!" as he's holding it together to minimize the spraying.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

If this were a mechanic working on a car, the mechanic would fix it and the customer would pay to have it fixed.


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## TimberlineMD (Jan 15, 2008)

A few years back I was up in the attic looking at the air handler of a customer. A small platform of OSB to lay on while removing the panels for a 'look see'. My back was against the truss members. Cramped location and blowed-in insualtion covering everything. Firtst thing I felt was water on my back. Yep, snapped a CPVC line just below the Insualtion with my back. Yelled for my son to turn off main line.

I repaired the pipe, fixed the air handler and waited to see if drywall damage occured. The insulation was cellulose, so it sucked up much of the water. Bagged it and collected my fee. Close one. No after shocks from customer.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

So not only do ya break the pipe ya high tail it out of there leaving them without water?


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> So not only do ya break the pipe ya high tail it out of there leaving them without water?


I make no claims to being a plumber. I don't have a truck full of fittings and pipe. Once the danged things started breaking off inside the wall, you've gotta be licensed to fix it.

The guy had a pool. He could flush his toilets.


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## dave_dj1 (Mar 16, 2010)

In a town not far from me a brand new municipal building just had a catastrophic cpvc failure. The plumbing contractor in an effort to save the city some money decided to use this crap (cpvc) and some "not intended for outside" hose bibs. Well as luck would have it during a cold spell one of the hose bibs froze back up inside the wall as did the cpvc. Now there is a law suit because of the damage and mold.
I have seen full lengths of this stuff split and shatter when cold.
I would NEVER use it for anything.


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