# How do you explain the dangers of not waterproofing a shower to your customers?



## [email protected] (Nov 17, 2014)

I just started wandering what methods you guys use to explain the importance of a waterproof shower, or just properly installed tile for that matter to your customers. 

I have had so many customers, homeowners and GC's that believe that Hardibacker is the crème de la crème when it come to tile backers but so many don't understand that its an absolute sponge and something waterproof needs to be over it!


----------



## RiverBG (Jun 1, 2014)

*How Do You Explain The Dangers Of Not Waterproofing A Shower To Your Customers?*

I just include all the proper material and time to install it in the quote, if they argue the importance of any aspect I tell them, that the only way I can guarantee my work, is if they let me use my preferred method and materials. If they refuse then I walk.


----------



## mako1 (Sep 1, 2013)

RiverBG said:


> I just include all the proper material and time to install it in the quote, if they argue the importance of any aspect I tell them, that the only way I can guarantee my work, is if they let me use my preferred method and materials. If they refuse then I walk.


+1 Tell them if is not done properly I won't guarantee the work and it will be a very expensive mess to fix down the road.Then I walk.


----------



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

I haven't really had a hard time with it. I don't work for GC's though. What possible reason could someone give for NOT wanting a waterproof shower? I have about 100 pictures of rotten shower walls that I could pull out if they ever felt like arguing but I think that only a total cheapskate would even bring that up so I'd be moving on.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 17, 2014)

EthanB said:


> I haven't really had a hard time with it. I don't work for GC's though. What possible reason could someone give for NOT wanting a waterproof shower? I have about 100 pictures of rotten shower walls that I could pull out if they ever felt like arguing but I think that only a total cheapskate would even bring that up so I'd be moving on.


Thats typically what I end up doing, just the the pics speak for themselves.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

There is so much remodeling going on in my area that I have to sell it. There are too many cut rate guys that are destroying theses homes with improper installation methods.

I simply explain the process and how it protects them. If they don't want to pay for that security then they get what they deserve.


----------



## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

I explain the methods and materials that I use and 
will quote into the job.

If they want something less than my standards, 

They'll be shopping for their own tile guy.


----------



## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Since joining this forum, my eyes have been opened to waterproofing shower tile installs. I really always thought that durock, or other cement board, thinset, and tile/grout was totally legit.

Granted, I've only done 2 shower surrounds, one for my mom and the other for a friend. 

Are these guaranteed to fail? I recall demo on shower tile in the past over CBU that didn't have any issues aside from being ugly.


----------



## Mark122 (Sep 27, 2014)

Have never had to make a strong stand on the issue. Have had clients question if its absolutely necessary, once they understand what they are requesting I eliminate from the scope of work a light bulb comes on...

Educating the homeowner with out being demeaning may be the easiest way to avoid feeling like you need to defend you method of working.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 17, 2014)

dielectricunion said:


> Since joining this forum, my eyes have been opened to waterproofing shower tile installs. I really always thought that durock, or other cement board, thinset, and tile/grout was totally legit.
> 
> Granted, I've only done 2 shower surrounds, one for my mom and the other for a friend.
> 
> Are these guaranteed to fail? I recall demo on shower tile in the past over CBU that didn't have any issues aside from being ugly.


Depends on the amount of use, I have seen multiple showers built in the same home with the same methods at the same time, one had a small amount of mold damage, the other had completely rotted out three key trusses to the point where a structural engineer had to be called in. 

The cheap building methods saved the customers maybe a few hundred dollars in the beginning and in the end costed them many many thousands of dollars extra.


----------



## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

Going to the Shluter training course gave me the info needed to educate a customer on the technical aspects of correctly installing a tile shower. Education is key. If they choose to go another route after I explain why I do it a certain way, then that is up to them.
I am thankful for the hacks that went before me, they assure that there will always be remodeling work in the future.


----------



## Mike Tyrie (Nov 28, 2012)

ArtisanRemod said:


> Going to the Shluter training course gave me the info needed to educate a customer on the technical aspects of correctly installing a tile shower. Education is key. If they choose to go another route after I explain why I do it a certain way, then that is up to them.
> I am thankful for the hacks that went before me, they assure that there will always be remodeling work in the future.


Agreed.


----------



## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

So weird to me that you guys have to sell people on this. 

That's like a mechanic trying to sell someone that they should really change their oil regularly. 

I suppose there are people that think changing oil is just a scam for the mechanic to get more money.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

slowsol said:


> So weird to me that you guys have to sell people on this.
> 
> That's like a mechanic trying to sell someone that they should really change their oil regularly.
> 
> I suppose there are people that think changing oil is just a scam for the mechanic to get more money.


Waterproofing is a fairly new concept. Most people believe the tile and grout are waterproof. It's nothing like changing your oil. That's been drilled into people since the automobile came out.


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

ArtisanRemod said:


> Going to the Shluter training course


one of the problems of going to a sales seminar is their job, they exist, to sell you their product so you then in turn sell their product to your customers. schluter was very good--or terrible--at what they did, depending upon how one looks at it, but in the end their job is to sell their product(s).

I'm sure most of us have demo'd showers that were 2-3 decades old that had greenboard and that old mastic for their materials. The failures that took place were due to the failure of the old mastic and the normal places. A lot of them I've done have had no water damage, just failure of good adhesion of that old mastic. But it's only above paper anyway, so for what it was, it worked surprisingly well. It would be interesting to see how well thinset worked over drywall over the same timeframe, but never saw that so don't know.


----------



## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

Why change your oil? Put in oil, oil drips out, put in more oil, oil is always new! Silly mechanics.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CO762 said:


> one of the problems of going to a sales seminar is their job, they exist, to sell you their product so you then in turn sell their product to your customers. schluter was very good--or terrible--at what they did, depending upon how one looks at it, but in the end their job is to sell their product(s).
> 
> I'm sure most of us have demo'd showers that were 2-3 decades old that had greenboard and that old mastic for their materials. The failures that took place were due to the failure of the old mastic and the normal places. A lot of them I've done have had no water damage, just failure of good adhesion of that old mastic. But it's only above paper anyway, so for what it was, it worked surprisingly well. It would be interesting to see how well thinset worked over drywall over the same timeframe, but never saw that so don't know.


The issue they I find in those installations is grout failure that in fact does lead to substrate failure. That and caulk failure.

The most common complaint was mold and mildew. And that's the rub with mastic.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I will say that I have demo'd a few that had little signs of damage.


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Waterproofing is a fairly new concept.


Sort of. Using steam room rated material for residential showers is what has changed and that's pushed as a sales tool. There have been a lot of gang showers, probably hundreds of thousands, built that weren't mud, nor were they steam room grade 'waterproofed' with the latest manufacturer's products.

I'm old school as ya know, but I think what has happened is the trade has been reduced to an 'assembler' position and skill level. Get the kit, open it, and follow directions. Knowledge has been lost and replaced with usage of materials as recommended. Like on guy here that used hardibacker over a slab to set. He heard/read how great it is for tile and it'll give him a flat surfaces, just as advertised, so he bedded it and set on it.

But the reduction in skill/knowledge is in all the trades. A lot of things are going pre-fab or kit, trusses are just one example. A lot of the framing knowledge is lost and replaced with assembling in order.


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I will say that I have demo'd a few that had little signs of damage.


Isn't that a trip? I would have thought more would, but the more I did, the less I saw of it. Easy demo though.

What's interesting is to see how very rural people do their showers. Check out motels in far away places to see how they do things. And some of them have been going strong for 5 decades.....

Always amazing what we can find in the trades.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CO762 said:


> Sort of. Using steam room rated material for residential showers is what has changed and that's pushed as a sales tool. There have been a lot of gang showers, probably hundreds of thousands, built that weren't mud, nor were they steam room grade 'waterproofed' with the latest manufacturer's products.
> 
> I'm old school as ya know, but I think what has happened is the trade has been reduced to an 'assembler' position and skill level. Get the kit, open it, and follow directions. Knowledge has been lost and replaced with usage of materials as recommended. Like on guy here that used hardibacker over a slab to set. He heard/read how great it is for tile and it'll give him a flat surfaces, just as advertised, so he bedded it and set on it.
> 
> But the reduction in skill/knowledge is in all the trades. A lot of things are going pre-fab or kit, trusses are just one example. A lot of the framing knowledge is lost and replaced with assembling in order.


Most of these products were designed by tile setters. I believe Schluter was a tile setter.

But I hear ya. I also hear the need to help speed up production where needed. Trusses may effect the knowledge to some extent, but complex framing still needs to be understood. I think you would be hard pressed to find a real framing crew, young and old, that has lost any knowledge.

Same goes with tile setting. Some guys may start using those products but if they are serious about their craft they will learn how to pour a pan. I started with pouring but used the quick pitch system. I could probably porch my own pan, but why? I'm no less of a tile setter for using a Schluter kit or leveling system.


----------



## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't think I have ever demo'd a shower or tub, tile or solid surface that didn't have water intrusion somewhere. I had a Kerdi shower I demo'd about a year ago that failed miserably.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

The question asks, "How do I explain it?"

The short answer is that you DON'T have to explain it. You're giving the customer the project for a particular price and you explain how you plan on doing it. If they could decline the waterproofing as an option, it's not like you're going to adjust the price to compensate for the difference. It's still going to cost $X no matter what so you might as well do it the way you proposed.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tedanderson said:


> The question asks, "How do I explain it?"
> 
> The short answer is that you DON'T have to explain it. You're giving the customer the project for a particular price and you explain how you plan on doing it. If they could decline the waterproofing as an option, it's not like you're going to adjust the price to compensate for the difference. It's still going to cost $X no matter what so you might as well do it the way you proposed.


Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. It's my job to educate the customer on the benefits of using my methods over others. It's my job to ensure the customer knows why my price may be higher than the next guy. It's my job to educate them so that when the next guy says you don't need it, they at least have enough information

It's not about them declining the option, which it is not, but more getting them to understand why they need it. It's still not a common practice around here. Most guys think that installing cement board and then tiling directly to it is a waterproofing method. How do we expect HO's to know when a lot of contractors don't.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It's my job to educate the customer on the benefits of using my methods over others.


That's correct. :thumbsup: But what you are doing in contrary to the OP's question is that you are explaining the BENEFITS of doing it vs. trying to explain the dangers of NOT doing it. So by all means you definitely explain/educate your customer on what it takes to make the job successful but you'll never come up with enough reasons or consequences of not waterproofing. You'll never be able to explain away their objections if their mind is set on doing it a particular way. 

My uncle's bathroom was remodeled with just the hardy board some 10 years ago. No leaks, no moisture, no mold, no mildew.. but it still had to be ripped out. I bet you'll never guess what happened...


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tedanderson said:


> That's correct. :thumbsup: But what you are doing in contrary to the OP's question is that you are explaining the BENEFITS of doing it vs. trying to explain the dangers of NOT doing it. So by all means you definitely explain/educate your customer on what it takes to make the job successful but you'll never come up with enough reasons or consequences of not waterproofing. You'll never be able to explain away their objections if their mind is set on doing it a particular way.
> 
> My uncle's bathroom was remodeled with just the hardy board some 10 years ago. No leaks, no moisture, no mold, no mildew.. but it still had to be ripped out. I bet you'll never guess what happened...


That makes no sense. Listing the benefits is underlining the dangers.

You'll never have to worry about X. You have listed a danger and that they will not have to worry about it.

And why won't you come up with enough consequences? Again that makes no sense. You may not come up with enough for a particular client but most will only take a few highlights.

Feels like you are just arguing to argue.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Feels like you are just arguing to argue.


No. I am agreeing with you. But that's not what the OP was asking.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> *I just started wandering what methods you guys use to explain the importance of a waterproof shower, or just properly installed tile for that matter to your customers. *
> 
> I have had so many customers, homeowners and GC's that believe that Hardibacker is the crème de la crème when it come to tile backers but so many don't understand that its an absolute sponge and something waterproof needs to be over it!


That's exactly what he asked. But again, you are explaining the dangers while you are explaining the benefits. You cannot have a benefit without a danger the benefit is allowing you to avoid. Pretty simple.



tedanderson said:


> No. I am agreeing with you. But that's not what the OP was asking.


----------



## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

To the OP if you have to explain it then there's a problem already. I won't do it without waterproofing so there's no need for me to explain. the only time i explain is when I'm asked "What's that orange stuff or why did you paint the tile backer?" 

I do it my way or go hire someone else.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

avenge said:


> To the OP if you have to explain it then there's a problem already. I won't do it without waterproofing so there's no need for me to explain. the only time i explain is when I'm asked "What's that orange stuff or why did you paint the tile backer?"
> 
> I do it my way or go hire someone else.


You guys really don't get it.

When you are a salesmen, you are pitching your company. This "my way or the highway and forget about me having to explain my materials and methods" is ridiculous advice.

Explaining my process has won me more jobs than I can count. HO's want to understand what they are paying for. If I come in $1500 more than the next guy, and lose the job because I didn't explain why I charge what I charge, I have failed.

Time and time again I have explained to too many that you must sale the value that you bring to the table. And value that is not understood isn't value at all but an added expense that the customer sees as unnecessary.

And I agree, if you have an issue with my materials or methods, I will walk. No one is advising to make it an option.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You guys really don't get it.


Oh I get it. We are saying the same thing differently.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tedanderson said:


> Oh I get it. We are saying the same thing differently.


I never said that is my way or the highway. 

I never said that you don't have to explain anything. 

I never said that explaining the benefits is contrary to explaining the dangers. 

We are not saying the same thing differently.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Yes we are. We are both saying that the importance is in explaining the benefits.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tedanderson said:


> The question asks, "How do I explain it?"
> 
> The short answer is that you DON'T have to explain it. You're giving the customer the project for a particular price and you explain how you plan on doing it. If they could decline the waterproofing as an option, it's not like you're going to adjust the price to compensate for the difference. It's still going to cost $X no matter what so you might as well do it the way you proposed.





tedanderson said:


> Yes we are. We are both saying that the importance is in explaining the benefits.


You said you tell them how you plan to do it. Nothing about the benefits.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

You really put all of that time and energy into proving that you think we don't agree? :laughing: LOL :laughing: Really, we do agree. 

You are probably just thinking that our conversation sounds like this commercial:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WStKdytjPSc


----------



## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You guys really don't get it.
> 
> When you are a salesmen, you are pitching your company. This "my way or the highway and forget about me having to explain my materials and methods" is ridiculous advice.
> 
> ...


I was speaking for myself not giving advice. All my business is referrals and everything is explained with specifics in my contracts. My competition if any will be the one asked if they doing the same as what I'm doing on any specific project.

I don't have to play the role of a salesman. My customers trust I will do the best possible job and won't question why I do extra steps the competition doesn't. If they ask anything it's out of curiosity not because they think I'm taking unneeded steps costing them money. If they are asking looking for the bottom dollar then that customer is not for me, no need for me to explain why, ask the competition why not.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tedanderson said:


> You really put all of that time and energy into proving that you think we don't agree? :laughing: LOL :laughing: Really, we do agree.
> 
> You are probably just thinking that our conversation sounds like this commercial:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WStKdytjPSc


No, it was pretty easy and no thought. You claimed to have said things that you just didn't say. I can't read your mind, just your posts. You never mentioned anything about the explaining the benefits.

It's taken all of a minute or so each time and with the way my mind work, it was automatic, no energy expended at all. Everything that you posted as well as the posts from others said that you didn't think you need to explain anything to anyone other than what you were going to do. You even stated that it would be a waste of time to explain the dangers and that my answers were not answering the OP's question. I just proved that I was answering the question he asked as well as you cannot explain the benefits without explaining the dangers. You can't have one without the other.

Then you kept repeating that we agree. Apart from saying that we agree, I have seen nothing that I agree with that you have said.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

avenge said:


> I was speaking for myself not giving advice. All my business is referrals and everything is explained with specifics in my contracts. My competition if any will be the one asked if they doing the same as what I'm doing on any specific project.
> 
> I don't have to play the role of a salesman. My customers trust I will do the best possible job and won't question why I do extra steps the competition doesn't. If they ask anything it's out of curiosity not because they think I'm taking unneeded steps costing them money. If they are asking looking for the bottom dollar then that customer is not for me, no need for me to explain why, ask the competition why not.


What is the point of you telling people what you do if not so that they would consider your method? Just curious.

EDIT: And you did tell him that if he has to explain it there is already a problem. You then gave your way of doing it. It's an explanation of how to do it without having to explain it.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 17, 2014)

avenge said:


> To the OP if you have to explain it then there's a problem already. I won't do it without waterproofing so there's no need for me to explain. the only time i explain is when I'm asked "What's that orange stuff or why did you paint the tile backer?"
> 
> I do it my way, or go hire someone else.


Im sorry but quality has to be sold, we live in a country consumed by the idea that every purchase should concern Quantity and Low Price, there are plenty of low end contractors willing to build showers for half of what I will and they simply acquire work from no other reason than their low bids.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> No, it was pretty easy and no thought. You claimed to have said things that you just didn't say. I can't read your mind, just your posts. You never mentioned anything about the explaining the benefits. It's taken all of a minute or so each time and with the way my mind work, it was automatic, no energy expended at all. Everything that you posted as well as the posts from others said that you didn't think you need to explain anything to anyone other than what you were going to do. You even stated that it would be a waste of time to explain the dangers and that my answers were not answering the OP's question. I just proved that I was answering the question he asked as well as you cannot explain the benefits without explaining the dangers. You can't have one without the other. Then you kept repeating that we agree. Apart from saying that we agree, I have seen nothing that I agree with that you have said.


Drop it man.. it's really not that serious, OK?


----------



## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What is the point of you telling people what you do if not so that they would consider your method? Just curious.
> 
> EDIT: And you did tell him that if he has to explain it there is already a problem. You then gave your way of doing it. It's an explanation of how to do it without having to explain it.





[email protected] said:


> Im sorry but quality has to be sold, we live in a country consumed by the idea that every purchase should concern Quantity and Low Price, there are plenty of low end contractors willing to build showers for half of what I will and they simply acquire work from no other reason than their low bids.


That's the whole point behind my reply, if you're asked to explain your more involved and costlier method then they're looking for the cheapest estimate. Otherwise they'd be asking the other guy why he's not doing it. 

If I took every reply as advice to follow I'd be in trouble. I simply don't sell myself, my reputation speaks for itself. When I get under bid 
almost always the other guy is taking shortcuts and no matter how much I try and convince the prospective client that's it's not the best methods all they care about is the bottom dollar. They may or may not find out the hard way they made a mistake.

My customers know I go above and beyond the standard, I just don't need to deal with people that question it. Like I said I shouldn't have to explain why I'm waterproofing, they should be asking those that don't do it why not if they care about quality.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tedanderson said:


> Drop it man.. it's really not that serious, OK?


Then move on.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

avenge said:


> That's the whole point behind my reply, if you're asked to explain your more involved and costlier method then they're looking for the cheapest estimate. Otherwise they'd be asking the other guy why he's not doing it.
> 
> If I took every reply as advice to follow I'd be in trouble. I simply don't sell myself, my reputation speaks for itself. When I get under bid
> almost always the other guy is taking shortcuts and no matter how much I try and convince the prospective client that's it's not the best methods all they care about is the bottom dollar. They may or may not find out the hard way they made a mistake.
> ...


Your answering from one scenario. I'm speaking about initial contact and estimate. 

You have the luxury that most do not. Most of us need to educate or customers. Consider yourself lucky.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

CO762 said:


> .... I think what has happened is the trade has been reduced to an 'assembler' position and skill level. Get the kit, open it, and follow directions. Knowledge has been lost and replaced with usage of materials as recommended. .....


I agree. It's a necessary and inevitable trend.


----------



## ee3 (Feb 10, 2006)

1.ITS CODE !! (Both UPC and IPC )
2.A SHOWER SEES 100X MORE WATER THEN YOUR ROOF, AND YOU WATER PROOF THAT!
3.THE TCNA HANDBOOK and ANSI STANDARDS CALL IT OUT.


----------

