# Price on Chair moulding...



## SHAWNPAINTS (Dec 13, 2006)

I have a question. Im a painter by trade but I have been getting into a lot of jobs where customers are asking about chair moulding and crown. Ive done some chair and all and it makes the room look so much better. I just have a question on how much i should charge for install. Do you charge by the foot or by the job? Also, does anyone have a sample bid sheets I could look at. Thanks again in advance everyone.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

I wouldn't charge by the foot, since you're talking about such small quantities. Trim like chairrail and crown really depends more on the number of cuts than the LF anyway- trimming a 12'x12' room takes the same amount of time as a 10'x10' room.

Even with that said, on small projects I'd figure it based on the total hours needed for the job. By the time you add up the time to pick up materials, set up your tools, protect floors, etc., and clean up, that stuff will all probably take more time than the actual cutting up and nailing up of the molding. 

I've got a friend in Marlboro who I was just speaking to on Friday- he's been having crown and new base put in different rooms of his house one room at a time (as he re-does each room). He's got a licensed, insured trim carpenter who charges him $300/room for base and $500/room for crown, and they (my friend and his wife) supply all the material, paint it themselves, and touch up the paint afterwards. Not a bad deal- $800 for probably 4-5 hours work total. Of course, that ends up being your whole day's pay unless you've got another 1/2 day gig set up for the rest of the day. Still a good day's pay though.

Bob


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

In a small room situation you need to determine what your lowest pay for a short day of work will be. In an average room, lets say 16' x 16' with a few windows and a door to break up the chair molding. If you charged $5LF to install the molding, pre-primed. You would have 16' x 4 = 48' minus lets say 3 windows and a doorway, about 12' so you have 52LF. 52' x $5LF = $260 for a 1/2 days work, driving there, picking up material, setting up tools, installing the molding, cleaning up, breaking down your tool setup and driving home.  This for $260? Sign me up (as a client that is). So you need to set up some guidelines for yourself for your minimums. A LF rate is only after you have to install 100'+ (or whatever you determine is a minimum for yourself) in the same residence. Otherwise a daily rate will be implemented. Gotta make money, you may lose the job and unless you are hard up for cash, if the client doesn't bite then just pass on the job. And don't get pulled in with "while your here" that the clients often use to justify a lower cost. You in a business to make money, please the client second.


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## SHAWNPAINTS (Dec 13, 2006)

Awesome. Thanks for the help. Are there any books or websites with info on tips and tricks for crown or any other type? Thanks again for the help.


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

If you really want to master crown (and molding in general), Gary Katz has a series of 6 DVD's that cover all aspects of trim work. I think the whole set is around $125, or you can buy individual DVD's for $25 each. I'm pretty sure his website is www.garymkatz.com

Bob


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## SHAWNPAINTS (Dec 13, 2006)

Thanks Bob.


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## sage (Feb 3, 2005)

Shawn do yourself a favor and get some crown and hang it in your house first. It takes practice and experience to get it right. If you don't you'll probably end up a frustrated mess on the job and searching the phone book for a trim carp. that can get out to your site in a hurry.

Good luck!

And Ya, Gary Katz is the man.:thumbup:


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

sage said:


> Shawn do yourself a favor and get some crown and hang it in your house first. It takes practice and experience to get it right. If you don't you'll probably end up a frustrated mess on the job and searching the phone book for a trim carp. that can get out to your site in a hurry.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> And Ya, Gary Katz is the man.:thumbup:


Please don't practice on someone else's house. It will do nothing but ruin your reputation. Definitely learn on your own house and practice. Trimming PROFESSIONALLY takes years to learn correctly. In fact, I don't think you ever stop learning because there are so many tricks to pick up.

Learn how to cope. If you don't cope crown or chair rail, you are doing it wrong. 

You can read Gary's books until you are blue in the face, but until you actually do it, it won't make sense. 

You need the right tools to do it right. There is a significant investment to make. You might be better off going to your local lumber yard and asking a counterperson for a referral to a trim carpenter and sub it out while you watch the first 100 times.


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

Greg Di said:


> You might be better off going to your local lumber yard and asking a counterperson for a referral to a trim carpenter and sub it out while you watch the first 100 times.


100 times? Come on Greg- it's crown molding- not rocket science- nothing a little caulk can't fix the first few times, right? lol

Bob


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

Bob Kovacs said:


> nothing a little caulk can't fix the first few times, right? lol
> 
> Bob


Every painter reading this is slinging a spitball your way right now. :laughing:


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

ProWallGuy said:


> Every painter reading this is slinging a spitball your way right now. :laughing:


I know- that's what makes it so great- the fact that it's so true....lol.

Bob


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## zico (Mar 18, 2006)

*If It Works for Corwns...*

You may find this interesting:

http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?t=826


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## SHAWNPAINTS (Dec 13, 2006)

zico, its telling me that the page cannot be displayed.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

SHAWNPAINTS said:


> zico, its telling me that the page cannot be displayed.


Remove the http//


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## zico (Mar 18, 2006)

Oops.. should be fixed. Here it is again for good measure:

http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?t=826


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## lawndart (Dec 3, 2006)

Greg Di said:


> Please don't practice on someone else's house. It will do nothing but ruin your reputation. Definitely learn on your own house and practice. Trimming PROFESSIONALLY takes years to learn correctly. In fact, I don't think you ever stop learning because there are so many tricks to pick up.
> 
> Learn how to cope. If you don't cope crown or chair rail, you are doing it wrong.
> 
> ...


Greg hit the nail on the head (no pun intended). I've been trimming for 12 years now, and I'll tell you, crown moulding is not easy. If you truly want to learn, I suggest you start out by doing some work in your house. Start with the base Moulding in the closets lol.

Learn how to cope, it gives you a clean tight miter. Invest in a miter saw, coping saw, and some rasps, or you can give me a call, and I'll show you all the tricks.

Have you considered passing the work to a professional trim carpenter? I've hooked up with a painter out here in Staten Island, and we pass eachother work all the time. I hang it, and he almost always paints it. It's always good to stick with what you do best. I cant paint worth a lick, although my wife is convinced, I just dont want to do it lol..


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## Tashler (Mar 4, 2006)

I've got a friend in Marlboro who I was just speaking to on Friday- he's been having crown and new base put in different rooms of his house one room at a time (as he re-does each room). He's got a licensed, insured trim carpenter who charges him $300/room for base and $500/room for crown, and they (my friend and his wife) supply all the material, paint it themselves, and touch up the paint afterwards. Not a bad deal- $800 for probably 4-5 hours work total. Of course, that ends up being your whole day's pay unless you've got another 1/2 day gig set up for the rest of the day. Still a good day's pay though.

Bob[/QUOTE]



Bob, 

What are the basic sizes of the rooms, and how many corners or laps are you talking about?

I'm trying to get a feel for what is acceptable in this area, and neither want to price myself out of the market nor cheat myself.

Glenn


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

Tashler said:


> What are the basic sizes of the rooms, and how many corners or laps are you talking about?
> 
> I'm trying to get a feel for what is acceptable in this area, and neither want to price myself out of the market nor cheat myself.


I've only been to the house once, and I wasn't really paying that much attention, but the rooms are fairly average size- maybe 12x14 bedrooms, similar dining room, slightly larger living/family rooms. There's nothing really cut up about the rooms, so maybe the closets in the bedrooms create an extra inside corner and one outside corner. 

Again, don't quote me on this, but I don't think I'd be far off.

Bob


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## King of Crown (Oct 12, 2005)

Bob Kovacs said:


> 100 times? Come on Greg- it's crown molding- not rocket science- nothing a little caulk can't fix the first few times, right? lol
> 
> Bob


Crown is probably close to rocket science.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Bob Kovacs said:


> 100 times? Come on Greg- it's crown molding- not rocket science- nothing a little caulk can't fix the first few times, right? lol
> 
> Bob


I can see Bob's P&L now:

Gross Income - $200,000,000
Labor - $100,000,000
Caulk - $50,000,000

Do you guys by it by the tractor trailer to get a better discount?


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## BrickTricks (Jan 9, 2007)

*Why is everyone Hung up on Coping??!!*

It's just not necessary. Check your corner with a speed square, adjust your cut to compensate for whether it's in or out, and bingo - no wrestling with unnecessary coping! A lot of guys think that by learning to cope will give them perfect corners - just not true! All coping helps you cheat on is a corner that is greater or lesser than 90 degrees. Will not help you in the least if the cieling in a corner dives down or rises up.

Once you corner is nice and tight - carry some 1/8" corregate with you - cut 2 pieces about 3/4" X 3" long, place a piece on the wall & cieling where your crown meets. Make sure it is tucked behind edge. When wood expands and contracts, cardboard will act as spring keeping corner nice and tight! I've been slinging crown for about 15 years, and this was taught to me by an old timer, and I've never had an issues with a corner gapping in the winter when the wood shrinks up. And, coping dosen't resolve that issue either! 

Great site you boys have here - keep up the good work!


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

BrickTricks said:


> It's just not necessary. Check your corner with a speed square, adjust your cut to compensate for whether it's in or out, and bingo - no wrestling with unnecessary coping! A lot of guys think that by learning to cope will give them perfect corners - just not true! All coping helps you cheat on is a corner that is greater or lesser than 90 degrees. Will not help you in the least if the cieling in a corner dives down or rises up.
> 
> Once you corner is nice and tight - carry some 1/8" corregate with you - cut 2 pieces about 3/4" X 3" long, place a piece on the wall & cieling where your crown meets. Make sure it is tucked behind edge. When wood expands and contracts, cardboard will act as spring keeping corner nice and tight! I've been slinging crown for about 15 years, and this was taught to me by an old timer, and I've never had an issues with a corner gapping in the winter when the wood shrinks up. And, coping dosen't resolve that issue either!
> 
> Great site you boys have here - keep up the good work!


One of the advantages of coping is sheetrock movement. I have had many a'time where I decided to just miter it instead of coping it and after I sunk the nails in the  sheetrock moves in because it wasn't tight to the stud. This usually happens in construction that has been there long enough for the studs to dry out and shrink some. Every time I miter a crown larger than 2 1/2" I end up regretting it. Coping solves this problem. With smaller molding or on cabinets that are square and solid I don't have issues with mitering, on sheetrock walls -- well, that another thing .


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## King of Crown (Oct 12, 2005)

BrickTricks said:


> It's just not necessary. Check your corner with a speed square, adjust your cut to compensate for whether it's in or out, and bingo - no wrestling with unnecessary coping! A lot of guys think that by learning to cope will give them perfect corners - just not true! All coping helps you cheat on is a corner that is greater or lesser than 90 degrees. Will not help you in the least if the cieling in a corner dives down or rises up.
> 
> Once you corner is nice and tight - carry some 1/8" corregate with you - cut 2 pieces about 3/4" X 3" long, place a piece on the wall & cieling where your crown meets. Make sure it is tucked behind edge. When wood expands and contracts, cardboard will act as spring keeping corner nice and tight! I've been slinging crown for about 15 years, and this was taught to me by an old timer, and I've never had an issues with a corner gapping in the winter when the wood shrinks up. And, coping dosen't resolve that issue either!
> 
> Great site you boys have here - keep up the good work!


You sound just like me a couple years ago. You'll learn that coping is better on certain crowns, and faster too if you get good at it.


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## lawndart (Dec 3, 2006)

Reminds me of the time, I interviewed a guy that claimed he was a trim carpenter. I asked him "Can you cope"?. He said "yeah I can handle it"..


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

BrickTricks said:


> It's just not necessary. Check your corner with a speed square, adjust your cut to compensate for whether it's in or out, and bingo - no wrestling with unnecessary coping! A lot of guys think that by learning to cope will give them perfect corners - just not true! All coping helps you cheat on is a corner that is greater or lesser than 90 degrees. Will not help you in the least if the cieling in a corner dives down or rises up.
> 
> Once you corner is nice and tight - carry some 1/8" corregate with you - cut 2 pieces about 3/4" X 3" long, place a piece on the wall & cieling where your crown meets. Make sure it is tucked behind edge. When wood expands and contracts, cardboard will act as spring keeping corner nice and tight! I've been slinging crown for about 15 years, and this was taught to me by an old timer, and I've never had an issues with a corner gapping in the winter when the wood shrinks up. And, coping dosen't resolve that issue either!
> 
> Great site you boys have here - keep up the good work!


We can argue over cope vs miter all day, but coping doesn't require any tricks, it overcomes 99% of installation issues, and copes are not seasonally dependant. What more could you ask for? Plus, coping is simple.


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## James1013 (Jan 11, 2007)

That sounds a serious amount of money!!


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## James1013 (Jan 11, 2007)

Hi everyone


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## BrickTricks (Jan 9, 2007)

Hi Greg,
Your right, is a personal thing. Just to set the record straight - I can cope - but I choose not to. I personally love my tight mitered corners. I spent the last 5 years in an area in Baltimore City called Federal Hill - Hugh Booming Renovation market, but has recently trended to a frozen pond - lol!

You can't cope corners in an environment like that - The lowball framer & Drywall guy always got the job - need I say more. All the molding was either MDF or Junk Finger Joint. There were a few good builders, but the majority, nothing was square or plumb! The way you got the corners to work was Run the longest piece possible to the corner on both walls. NAil the crown in the center, then get in the corner, and twist the hell out of it, until it fit! Absolutely impossible to cope something like that! When I was done.. they were tickled pink, it turned out so nice, with all the issues going on! And, yes it did look like a Million Dollars - From Your Backyard!! -LOL!- NOW - I must relly get out of here See YA!


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