# HELP!! Sinking deck.



## Premier_929 (Dec 30, 2010)

KennMacMoragh said:


> I suppose so, anything can happen, a rodent can even dig under it. But piles work by friction along the sides, not so much by the surface area under them.


Wow, thats true, I never thought of it that way...


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## A&J (Jan 2, 2011)

So with Sonotube piles. where does this friction come from???


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

A&J said:


> So with Sonotube piles. where does this friction come from???


That's not a pile, that's a regular footing, I suppose you need it to get bellow the frost in your location. Only two ways to make a pile is to either drive them in the ground or build a caisson, then you have concrete right against the dirt with rebar in them.


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## Danthehandyman (Aug 30, 2011)

hello,
here's another guy in your area that does te Helical piling......dont know much about them, but you can ask around or give them a shout.
Also, i see, the windsor plywood in your area are doing an addition -and are using them.


Mike Reschke (Fortress Contracting)
ph. (780)660-1026
email: [email protected]


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## Todd518 (Aug 28, 2011)

A&J said:


> So with Sonotube piles. where does this friction come from???


The cardboard sona tubes are only meant to be used above grade! The piles should of been drilled deeper, at least 8'! The concrete in the piles is held by the friction of the dirt on the sides of the pile! It's just like putting a nail into a piece of wood! The nail holds by the pressure of the wood against the nail!


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## A&J (Jan 2, 2011)

http://www.shedsusa.com/products/SonoforKitSheds.pdf


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

Todd518 said:


> The cardboard sona tubes are only meant to be used above grade! The piles should of been drilled deeper, at least 8'! The concrete in the piles is held by the friction of the dirt on the sides of the pile! It's just like putting a nail into a piece of wood! The nail holds by the pressure of the wood against the nail!


Not necessarily. Sonotubes are also used to reduce frost heave vis a vis less friction, and in doing so, making the pile act as a regular footing. 

A 6" diameter pile in this application is to small (as noted above a few times) IMO, the minimum should be 12" dia., at least at the footing (ie bell the pile bottom). 

Unfortunately, the OP may be called back next spring to find that the piles have sunk another 1"


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## 3bar (Jan 14, 2011)

the problem is not so much the 6" sonotube....its the fact that there is no footing under it. but putting a footing in is not usually practical. 

thats why you want to go with a larger diameter hole/tube, to spread out the weight load a bit.


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## Nessman (Sep 4, 2011)

I am new to contractor talk and I am actually quite shocked. Is there not a code requirement regarding footings for decks your area. Or in any of the areas of those that responded.

I cant remember the last time I actually built a deck with less than
a 24" wide by 12" thick footing thats a minumum of 48" deep. Then I use an 8" sonotube tide into the footing with rebar when the costumer wants to pay the extra for that, otherwise the 6x6 post sits directly on the footing and gets buried.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

Wow, I'm a little flabbergasted. I've built a lot of decks and all I've every done is dig a 42" hole (requirement here), by 8" the size of my hand auger throw the post in with 2 60lb bags of concrete. I always check the compaction with a piece of re-bar and on one deck I used those concrete donuts in the bottom of the hole. I have never had a call back for any movements of the frame. 

I did get a service call on a deck I did not build to fix terrible rising of the deck. The lady's deck was a second story deck with her backyard basically a swamp. The movement of the posts with the freeze/thaw rose the outside bond 7" higher than the rimboard at the house. We built a temp wall on hydraulic jacks to support the joists then, unbolted where the bond was attached to the posts. We dug two new posts and set them in and then lowered the deck level, bolted everything together. Cut off the tops of the post and presto.


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## Premier_929 (Dec 30, 2010)

mrcharles said:


> Wow, I'm a little flabbergasted. I've built a lot of decks and all I've every done is dig a 42" hole (requirement here), by 8" the size of my hand auger throw the post in with 2 60lb bags of concrete. I always check the compaction with a piece of re-bar and on one deck I used those concrete donuts in the bottom of the hole. I have never had a call back for any movements of the frame.
> 
> I did get a service call on a deck I did not build to fix terrible rising of the deck. The lady's deck was a second story deck with her backyard basically a swamp. The movement of the posts with the freeze/thaw rose the outside bond 7" higher than the rimboard at the house. We built a temp wall on hydraulic jacks to support the joists then, unbolted where the bond was attached to the posts. We dug two new posts and set them in and then lowered the deck level, bolted everything together. Cut off the tops of the post and presto.


thats a hack job...you should never bury a post in concrete. And ONLY 8 " wide, are you kidding:laughing: There is barely anything around the post which is taking up 3 1/2" in there...


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

Premier_929 said:


> thats a hack job...you should never bury a post in concrete. And ONLY 8 " wide, are you kidding:laughing: There is barely anything around the post which is taking up 3 1/2" in there...




Call it what you will but I sleep well at night using this method for four reasons:

1. It passes code here
2. I can set my posts and frame it usually in one day
3. Not one of the decks I've built have moved including my Dad's 1000 sqft deck 
4. If I this method failed me once I would adapt and try something different, but when digging into undisturbed soil I feel much better about less back fill and more original soil helping to hold the post. 


For people who are against wood going in the hole, we also build basements and footings out of PT wood. It is not my preferred choice to build but it works and I will do it when asked. 

I also like the wood going in the hole because of simple physics, if you poured a 12"x 42" pier and then used a simpson post bracket on top and attached a 8' post, I guarantee you could push it over with little effort. If you dug a 42" hole threw a post in and poured two bags in the whole and back filled. once that is cured it will make a lot more effort to move. 

Some inspectors make us bell out the bottom of the hole, which is good but not necessary. I know a very reputable deck contractor around here who does not even mix his concrete before putting it in the hole, and he has been getting top dollar for 15 years now. 

My dad built an addition to his house using posts and deck for the foundation, and it has been seven years now and there is not even one drywall crack from movement. 

I don't appreciate being called a hack, because I build in a way that meets code in my area and is the preferred choice of all the builders in my region. I have been doing this all my life, I have a 4 year degree in construction technology, I am reputable with all licensees and insurance, and I regularly participate in industry conferences and trade shows. Call me what you want, but I know I consistently deliver quality jobs, and that's enough for me (and my ecstatic customers!)


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