# Customer freaks out and refuses to cooperate after successfull completion of Project!



## eModPro (Sep 12, 2007)

There's no other way to say it except that my client, whom I've been on very good terms with for the past several months as I completely gutted and remodeled their kitchen, has completely freaked out.

We made several changes throughout the project. Added a recessed light here and there, changed some cabinet layouts, added some new framing, etc, etc... No big deal. We've done it a million times with other clients. We discuss it with the client, we say "No problem, we'll get it taken care of and the cost will be on the final billing".

We made these changes, mostly small ones, via verbal agreements. I do have emails documenting the work and their acceptance of the additions. Again, no big deal. I've never had a satisfied customer become so unsatisfied over-night, but I guess you learn something new about people every day.

I billed the customer. The bill clearly stated every additional charge, along with a refund for everything that we didn't end up doing (at their request - changes they made to the scope of the project). 

Then it happened. The customer flipped out - OVER EMAIL. He refuses to meet me face to face and refuses to agree to the charges, even after I forwarded him all of the documentation proving that he agreed to the changes throughout the project.

I have now somehow become his mortal enemy. Did i run over his dog?

He wants a new bill, but as you may have already guessed, he wants items removed, even though I have already performed the extra work (or paid the electricians for the extra work). 

I have gone above and beyond in this project (as I do in every project). Little things that could have burned bridges, were simply taken care of to avoid an argument. I did everything to preserve the relationship, and when I left on friday, the client said "I'm very happy with the work. You did a good job".

I'm having a hard time making any more concessions at this point. It may come down to it, but I have already made consessions, and it seems to me he's out to get something for nothing.

Has anyone run into a customer like this or had similar problems with customers refusing a bill after work was completed? The remodel turned out great.

I want to know what my options are. I don't want to slap a lean on him. I don't want to fuss about it. I don't want to get paid for things I didn't do. I just simply want to be paid for what we DID!

By the way, I'm in the state of washington. I'd be interested to hear similar horror stories and how you mitigated them. 

Yikes!


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## Kgmz (Feb 9, 2007)

First welcome to the forum.

I see you will have been licensed for 2 years in April. For the future you need a good set of contract documents, including "change orders".

Now about your current situation. Without a "Change Order" or something signed and agreed to you may be up a creek. I don't know if the emails will help or not since nothing is really signed.

Now for the really bad news, did you send or give to the owner the required notice of your "right to lien" at the commencement of the project?

If you did not you will not be able to file a lien, and if you do it will be dismissed.

This is required by Washington state law, see link below.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=60.04.031


Now what does your contract say, does it have a arbitration clause or what?

How much does he owe in extra charges? If low enough you may be able to make a case in small claims court.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

BTW Good intro!

We do email confirmations of C/O'S (daily during the week). The email states: "Please confirm your acceptance of the addition of one (1) recessed light fixture for the price of $1,000,000 by replying "I accept the change as proposed above"". We then complete an actual C/O over the weekend and present for signature on Monday.

Never had one (written) that was not signed. I have little doubt that the email does'nt holds up in court - what they doubt is more important.

Good luck - I don't know how the state od WA handles such things. I would loose in CO - don't tell anyone though!


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Yes, i unfortunately have come across these Nuts also, good luck with it, GMOD


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

I think that's one good argument to have C/Os paid for right away as they come up.

When they all start stacking up towards the end is almost just waiting for an issue to occur when you expect to get paid.


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## wheeler (Feb 8, 2009)

eModPro said:


> ...Has anyone run into a customer like this or had similar problems with customers refusing a bill after work was completed?
> Yikes!


every day. so happens we're meeting with another one this evening to closeout a similar situation. your customer isn't freaking out, your story reads like a typical wealthy person we see in the custom residential market all the time, its quite possible you're being sucker-punched, and generally speaking what you are describing is what many a wealthy person does. suggestion is you get your documents together and start working with a lawyer, file those liens, and don't walk yourself into a trap.


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## NormW (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm willing to bet that the majority of us have ran into this at the final payment, at one point or another. 

I was stung once for 2,800 on a C/O. I ate the material and the labor for replacing a leaky roof over a remodel. Reason customer didn't pay me... I wouldn't repair the rotted fascia and soffits until they paid the $2,800 they already owed me. I stuck to my guns.... and they stuck to theirs. 

Best practice is to give them the Change Order before you do the work. If it's T&M, give them the C/O as soon as possible. Including it in the final bill, is an invitation for trouble. 

_Some_ customers are savvy enough, not to complain until all the work is completed, and they owe you. Having a C/O in there isn't going to help.

If it was me, I'd try to get as much money as they agree to, then cut my losses. 

Last point, Nowadays I try to keep the final payment amount beneath the threshold for small claims court. Here that's 2k. I sleep better knowing I can handle it in Small Claims if I want to. Personally, I'd probably cut the losses, if I fumbled again.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

You guys are scaring me.

All to often I proceed with changes without proper paper work(or even discussing price!)

Fortunately,I've never been stiffed---I have seen the customers jaw drop to the floor at the changes.

I think I better dust off the change order book and start using it before I end up in this boat.

Most of my customers are referrals,However that is not a guarantee that a good customer does not have a nut job for an acquaintance!!! 

Hell, some of my best friends are not people I would want to work for.--MIKE--


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## jimmys (May 1, 2009)

*in your contract*

You should say something in your contract about this situation. Lots of times the change is something that comes up without much warning and needs to be done right away so things don't slow down. Our contract says: 
...XYZ Remodelers will try to prepare Change Orders for review by Owners before performing the relevant work. However, Owners may order, and XYZ Remodelers may agree to perform, extra work started before such written verification can be completed. The parties agree these verbal orders are binding on them, to be confirmed by a written Change Order...

As you no doubt are learning, these difficult discussions are easier during the job, when you both have a stake in the relationship and a good outcome. At the end, as has been posted, the HO can develop a different attitude, since his house is his again.
Jim


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## EASTSIDE (Apr 16, 2007)

*Isnt this a great way to make a living !*

We run into this in about 1 out of 10 jobs,even though we do all change orders via email the second after the verbal discussion takes place on the job using our blakberrys.we make the customer reply to the c.o./email accepting the change.
We still get customers who balk, most commonly on the last c.o.
I agree, communicate with the customer now as best you can,get as much of the balance as you can and move on.
Someday if your lucky you might have a chance to get even with the dead beat


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

I budget losing $15,000 annually because of this, sucks, but often even after you've invested as much as your owed in lawyer fees and lost time to spend in court and lawyers offices fighting for your money, you'll never see it anyhow....so learning to realize you will get screwed every year makes is a lil more acceptable since "it's no suprise"

My only advise, get change order money up front before it begins.....or if that wont work, at the end of the week at least keep a running tally on the financial status of the project and get it initialed so at the end of the job the HO's will have been keep in the loop the ENTIRE time, so they cannot act suprised after they've looooong forgotten about all the individual upgrades they verbally authorized, when the final invoice is submitted.

Good luck, I think we've ALL been here/done that, since your new blood, this will be one of many "expensive" classes you will take weather you want to or not LOL!! Speaking for myself, I could've EASILY gotten my PHD with all the money i've been screwed out of and i screwed myself out of:laughing: Business classes be expeeensive i tells ya:furious:


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## GregC (Jan 24, 2010)

Call my cousin Vinnie! :thumbsup:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Like others have stated, ALWAYS get change orders signed and* paid in full* prior to the work being done.

I don't care if it's a $0 dollar change order (like changing a paint color before painting),_ get it in writing._

Also, your c/o order should have previous contract amount and new contract total including each change order...cover yourself, it's pretty easy to do.

And add any delay time to the change order as well...even if you think you can "just do it" while you're already working...add a day or two (or 10 if required).


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

mikeswoods said:


> You guys are scaring me.
> 
> *All to often I proceed with changes without proper paper work*(or even discussing price!)
> 
> ...


I have the same bad habit Mike. I like to think I'm a pretty good judge of character and never been stiffed on C/O's (yet) but I'm rethinking my process now. To the op, good luck with your situation. Live and learn.


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## eModPro (Sep 12, 2007)

*Customer's still sitting in the hole he dug, but all's calm on the home front.*

We do have a signed contract and it clearly states the right to place a lien on the property. It also explains change order and extra projects. I've always been on excellent terms with clients, as I'm a small company and I myself perform a major amount of the work on a project like this. I'm convinced this client has some sort of passive aggressive disease. :laughing: Should have trusted my gut when I first met him that he'd be a pain, but after working with him for a month and a half the whole family was unbelievably easy going and good to be around. Never saw it coming.

It does sound to me like he's out to get what he can for, but as the conversations progressed, his arguments got more and more rediculious, and reading between the lines it was pretty obvious he knew he had dug himself into an unjustifiable hole and was determined to sit in it, despite his better judgment. 

That being said, I think we've come to an agreement with the customer. He still doesn't like me, but I think i stated my case (or his wife talked some sense into him), and after a $140 concession, it looks like we've settled the bill... time will tell as he's mailing the final check to me and wont take phone calls! So we wait to hear...:whistling I think he just had to WIN.

What a fiasco! You guys are scaring me a bit that 1 out of 10 clients tries to pull this crap. Maybe we should be adding refundable items to our bids in anticipation of this happening. Then the angry client can 'win' and we don't have to deal with small claims court and lawyers. Our lives are busy enough already! :hammer:

CAN you imagine ever trying to get away with this with your client!? "Hey, I never did that work for you, but I want you to pay me for it anyway" 

There's a wealth of knowledge on the forum and I'm appreciative of everybody's time and stories. For those of you who are also going thru this, I feel your pain!


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## Kgmz (Feb 9, 2007)

eModPro said:


> We do have a signed contract and it clearly states the right to place a lien on the property.


A sentence or paragraph in a contract will not cut it under Washington state law. You have to use the form the state provides or something very similar to it.

From the link to the RCW.

(4) The notice of right to claim a lien described in subsection (1) of this section, shall include but not be limited to the following information and shall substantially be in the following form, using lower-case and upper-case ten-point type where appropriate.


See where it says "shall substantially be in the following form". This is because it explains the law better and explains how the homeowner can protect themselves in case the prime contractor does not pay their subs, suppliers, etc.


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## qualify.com (Oct 12, 2009)

I've found out personally that putting a lien on someone property is fine and dandy. Its what you have to pay and do to collect that's a pain. therefore i'm all for getting as much as i can from the customer if it ever gets to that. Of all the industries out there i'm of the opinion GC's are the ones that have to work the hardest and fight the most for what they deserve, guess we should do like the LAWYERS, DOCTORS, MECHANICS, pay in advance or there will be no service.


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## DeanV (Feb 20, 2006)

qualify.com said:


> I've found out personally that putting a lien on someone property is fine and dandy. Its what you have to pay and do to collect that's a pain. therefore i'm all for getting as much as i can from the customer if it ever gets to that. Of all the industries out there i'm of the opinion GC's are the ones that have to work the hardest and fight the most for what they deserve, guess we should do like the LAWYERS, DOCTORS, MECHANICS, pay in advance or there will be no service.


I have never had to pay a doctor, lawyer, or mechanic in advance.


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## MarcD (Sep 18, 2009)

Amazing isnt it. And the customer will not even meet you face to face. Good luck to you hope it goes well. Good thing you have all your documentation and emails.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

For those who don't get their CO's signed before doing the work you better check your state laws regarding this. We are required in Virginia to have a signed CO before doing anything different from the signed contract, regardless of whether or not it will affect the total project value or time of completion. If the HO refuses to sign it then I stick with what is written in the original contract.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

DeanV said:


> I have never had to pay a doctor, lawyer, or mechanic in advance.


I've never had to pay a mechanic in advance but I have had to pay a lawyer (retainer fee) and a doctor (co-pay) in advance. I guess technically those could be considered deposits but it's still a pre-payment.


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## qualify.com (Oct 12, 2009)

DeanV said:


> I have never had to pay a doctor, lawyer, or mechanic in advance.


You might not have paid in advance but I'm gonna bet that they made certain that you had the ability to pay. Because prior to treating you the dcotor wants to know you have INS, the lawyers will ask for some sort of downpayment always and you won't be able to drive off the mechanic's lot before paying because when you hand them your keys that was payment.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

$140 off sounds like a happy ending. If you feel strongly that you were cheated out of honest work, add it to the next quote for anything they want in the future. As others have suggested, the safest route is having signed COs paid in advance before any work is added. If they are unwilling to sign the CO and pay for it, you don't do the work. IMO to go to the final payment with a group of COs is asking to be taken advantage of. At the least you should be paid for COs on the next progress payment or at the end of the week and not wait until the final payment.

Stone, I think it was, wrote something like "Whenever anyone asks for a change train yourself to say "Let me get my clipboard to write up a CO". It lets them know that the change isn't free (which will burn up whatever profit there was on the job). IMO it's good business to give good clients a little extra for free as good marketing. However, you avoid being taken advantage of.


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## eModPro (Sep 12, 2007)

qualify.com said:


> I've found out personally that putting a lien on someone property is fine and dandy. Its what you have to pay and do to collect that's a pain. therefore i'm all for getting as much as i can from the customer if it ever gets to that. Of all the industries out there i'm of the opinion GC's are the ones that have to work the hardest and fight the most for what they deserve, guess we should do like the LAWYERS, DOCTORS, MECHANICS, pay in advance or there will be no service.


LOL yeah and I'm going to bring one off those fancy clocks around that keeps track of every minute you talk to your lawyer. I'll just set it on the client's counter and let it tick away as they stand there talking non-stop while I'm trying to get their job done! :clap: Problem solved.

I do agree, we work way to hard to have to put up with this garbage. When someone doesn't want to take on the dirty work, they call us. Oh well, live and learn.

At least we can all come here and vent at the TOP of our lungs once in a while and someone actually 'gets it'.


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## eModPro (Sep 12, 2007)

Tiger said:


> $140 off sounds like a happy ending. If you feel strongly that you were cheated out of honest work, add it to the next quote for anything they want in the future. As others have suggested, the safest route is having signed COs paid in advance before any work is added. If they are unwilling to sign the CO and pay for it, you don't do the work. IMO to go to the final payment with a group of COs is asking to be taken advantage of. At the least you should be paid for COs on the next progress payment or at the end of the week and not wait until the final payment.


Yep, it was a compromise I was willing to make to get ANY sort of a paycheck from them without dealing with legal mumbo jumbo that it really shouldn't come to. 

I think our society has gotten so used to getting stuff for free that everybody thinks they're entitled to it, and if everything doesn't go your way, you can just sue people. It's rediculious. When did America lose it's common sense and become a bunch or self important babies?

But I guess we all know that you'll win some and you lose some. I still think that people who intentionally take advantage of other people and use the legal system to manipulate the situation should be used as back-fill. :laughing:


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

What bothers me most about situations like this is that someone will look you in the eye, tell you they'll pay you and don't, or sign a contract and not honor the contract. Some people don't value their reputations at all. I guess when you don't live in a small town it doesn't follow you. 

When it happens that someone cheats me I do my best to forget it. I tell myself it happens less than once a year and as a total over the years doesn't add up to a significant percentage of the business. Otherwise I'd do something else.


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## gallerytungsten (Jul 5, 2007)

Tiger said:


> What bothers me most about situations like this is that someone will look you in the eye, tell you they'll pay you and don't, or sign a contract and not honor the contract. Some people don't value their reputations at all. I guess when you don't live in a small town it doesn't follow you.
> 
> When it happens that someone cheats me I do my best to forget it. I tell myself it happens less than once a year and as a total over the years doesn't add up to a significant percentage of the business. Otherwise I'd do something else.


This is really what it amounts to. There is some percentage of people that are determined to perpetrate a ripoff. Over the years, you have to learn to detect these people in advance and avoid doing business with them.


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## newf (Jan 15, 2010)

This has happened to me three times over 15 years and now I always use change orders. If its a big enough job I'll include a sample CO in the contract to show the home owner what to expect when a change comes up and it works well for me and them. I use them for credits and like someone else said even if its just to cover changing a paint color. On another note if someone doesn't pay for the job in full I would let them know that they won't get any warrenty for a job thats not paid for in full. I had a lady hold $700.00 on a $30,000.00 kitchen and I told her I wouldn't come back for anything unless I was paid in full.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Been there when I was starting out...nothing new having a HO freak out after the job is done and you submit your final bill.
The first time it happened to me, I changed my policy, any change order, anything extra,*must be paid upfront in full*...and its listed in every contract. Never had a problem since then.
I don't know how much money is involved in your case, but if its a small amount, its not worth the headache,unless you make it personal and act out on principles, then having the right documentation you will get to collect... Either way, you let it go or get to collect, don't use them as a reference.

Good luck


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Phones books don't leave bruises do they?


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Basic rule - never let anyone get into you for more money than you are willing to loose.

This will prevent scary situations. I tell my clients right up front that I DO NOT finance projects. I am in the contracting business, not the finance business.

If they won't foot the bill, I won't work for them. Simple as that.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

Kgmz said:


> A sentence or paragraph in a contract will not cut it under Washington state law. You have to use the form the state provides or something very similar to it.
> 
> From the link to the RCW.
> 
> ...


Kgmz is correct. You are required to use the state form (I think it is called "notice of right to lien"), it isn't something you can just reference in your contract. It explains to the homeowner exactly what his and your rights regarding a lien are under state law. Oregon has a similar notice to lien form as well.

You need to incorporate this into your business process and have the customer sign it at the same time he/she signs the contract - before you start work.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Phones books don't leave bruises do they?


 Not if they accidentally swallow one . . . :laughing:


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Not sure about WA but in Virginia, you are required to have a clause in your contract concerning CO's including the fact that they must be used (signed and dated) for all changes. Not including the clause and/or not using them opens you up to disciplinary action by the Board for Contractors. Any savvy HO could use this against you at the end of a contract and you have no recourse. 

If you need help with a good contract, get Gary Ransone's book: "The Contractor's Legal Kit", 2nd ed. Just about everything you need for a good contract and you can edit the wording to fit your own needs.


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## EricTheHandyman (Jan 29, 2008)

It's an expensive lesson to learn, but here it is: Everything must be in writing!!!!

I have a guy that owes me over $5200, and I'll probably never see it because we did verbal agreements. Lesson learned the hard way, I now have a lawyer approved contract and use written change orders for everything.


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## Kuba (May 3, 2009)

This is for EVERYONE who read your original post.

First, Learn to be FIRM and tactful.

Second, NEVER do additional work without having yoru ass covered.

Third, EVERY customer will get you to do more for nothing - They do NOT know any other way to get you to lower your prices and/or manipulate their way out of paying so ALL OF them rely on lies and bull****.



EVERY single time a customer asks me to do something extra.. I tell them this

"I can do whatever you ask me to do Sir/Maam! However, I cannot legaly do the work unless I have a work order signed for *** to be done" "When would you like me to bring the change order over Sir/Maam?"

If it is something minor - do your customer a favor and just do it for free! If its substantial work, DO NOT DO THE WORK until you have them sign a change order and AGREE ON THE PRICE!



Treat every customer the same - With RESPECT and Protect them as well and yourself!

If they want to play the "Im a nut and wont pay you" card, RESPECTFULLY inform them of your hard work and money invested and you will do what it takes to redeem anything owed to you.

If you are not allowed to finish the job - or simply havent been paid...

Have an Lawyer write them a warning letter.. Perfectly legal.. Have him include a time to complete the balace of payment or go to court.

The letter will cost you 200 bucks, but it might net you your money back from the job.

Most ****ers that want to scam you, regardless of yoru work, think they can get away with it if you're a pussy and do not have the balls to stand up for yourself...

In order for your customers to pay you and like you and yoru work.. they must first respect you! If they dont, go buy some KY!


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## wellbuilthome (Feb 5, 2008)

I always have a running balance of WOC and submit at next contract payment . 
My contracts state all WOC will be payed at signing of work order and payed in full , before work will commence bla bla But Ive been getting lazy . I never leave the CO till the last payment . never never never neverrrrrrrrrrrr . John


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## mikebooth (Dec 12, 2009)

*mike*

Don't waste any more time, put a lien on the property. Your client had this in mind from the beginning. It doesn't matter what you do for him, you will never make him happy. You are limited in the time that a lien can be placed, so hurry and cover your ass. Good luck.


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## Lance S (Feb 3, 2010)

Is your customers name Kristie by any chance?

She took me for 4300$ on extras and add ons, I filled out the change forms and all the right paperwork. What she got me on was "Any additional underlaying or framing work to be done will be billed at a rate of $60.00per hour + materials". Now most contractors have that clause in there contracts----------heres the issue. She wanted to see my punched time card!!! So after a 2 week back and forth, I dropped it. Cut my loses. And I did it smiling.--------------I forgot to pull the permit on the 14*16 greenhouse that I built for her. OOOPS! In her city, shell have to tear it down to sell. Yep, I will be getting a call one of these days.


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