# inexperienced h/o seeks advice on estimates



## paroofer (Sep 30, 2005)

Glasshousebltr said:


> See DMM, if it was I giving your estimate, and you began question me about product and application, I would have told you how spectacularly beautiful you looked today.:thumbsup:
> 
> Then maybe a great dress comment.:cheesygri
> 
> Bob


Do you ever get socked???

:boxing: :boxing: :boxing:

:cheesygri


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Why am I thinking about Eddie Haskell?


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## paroofer (Sep 30, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> Why am I thinking about Eddie Haskell?


Cause you're gay?


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> They said architectural and I again said, "No, what brand?" They repeated


Sounds like a contractor trying to dodge having to tell you he's putting JUNK on top of your house. Before they install even one shingle(preferably before the day of the job), make him stop what he's doing, get his full attention, and make him tell you what BRAND, not what type, of shingle they'll be putting on. Come here and ask or search for the company online. If their name in google doesn't bring their site in at least one of the top 5 search results...it's probably (not always) junk. Just my opinion though.



> they just didn't appreciate my interjection with questions such as staples or nails, reroof or pull off the old, certified, insured, workman's comp? They were dealing with the men and I guess they figured that I didn't know what I was talking about so didn't want to waste time on me.


Hey now, you're generalizing:cheesygri ...but really though, I wouldn't care if he appreciated it or not, and I'd let him know that right off. "I'm guessing you don't like me asking a bunch of questions..but I don't really...umm:innocent: ...CARE , and since I have a couple more, I hope you're ready to answer them"

For the money you're talking about...even with the discount involved (900 instead of 1200...or something like that...right?), it's not exactly pocket change. It won't hurt him to answer a few questions. I personally like it when I get the 3rd degree, it means the customer cares about quality more than (or at least as much as) price.


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## noreast05 (Sep 4, 2005)

off the subject ......is that a new logo jp .........looks good


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

paroofer said:


> Do you ever get socked???
> 
> :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:
> 
> :cheesygri


That and many other things.:cheesygri 

Bob


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Call me crazy, but 900 bucks sounds like a pretty good gamble to me. Even if it was only a so-so job, you didn't spend too much. Plus, Bob's right, you do look radiant today.


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## paroofer (Sep 30, 2005)

You'll know better when you have two other estimates to compare to. If that 900.00 comes in way lower, it is probably risky. Besides, if he was that bothered when it comes to asking perfectly normal questions about the roofing process, how bothered will he be if you call him with a problem?


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

Hi Nor, yeah that's a new logo. I was going to (someday) start a new thread for opinions. I was hoping it was a tad more professional looking (or at least eye catching) than the previous one. Thanks for noticing.:cheesygri


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## DMM (Oct 17, 2005)

paroofer said:


> how bothered will he be if you call him with a problem?


I hear you Joanna, I thought I asked perfectly normal questions. 

Jim P, I agree with you. He was evading my question. I asked it twice. He knew what I meant so it bothered me a bit. I care about the quality and that's why I originally posted, I have heard you get what you pay for and I thought that perhaps his bid was too low so I was wondering exactly WHAT it was that I was getting.

And Master Electrician, I am shocked! :cheesygri A good gamble even if it's a so-so job? :no: How can a roof be so-so? It either works or it doesn't. All I want is a roof that doesn't leak and keeps out the cold, keeps in the warm and if it will cost me more $$ then the absence of aggravation will be more than worth the extra cash. I can't call you crazy though, you said you agreed with Bob. That counts for something.:smile: 

I am going to listen to all this great advice, ask the questions that homeowners are expected to ask and check their credentials. I just needed to know the right questions. After I read Mr. Grumpy's links he sent I'm sure I'll be okay. Thank you Mr. Grumpy.

Sorry to generalize about the guys treating me like the 'girl' but I _was_ kind of odd man out. They wouldn't address me and the men were so ga ga over the price that all the roofer had to say was that '_THEY_ looked positively radiant, oh, and great jeans' and they would have signed on the dotted line!

Thanks very much for all of your help and I will let you know the outcome. DM


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Glasshousebltr said:


> Grump, I don't buy into that state license garbage. When the Dept of Professional Regulation decides to use it's powers to regulate workmanship instead of extort funds, maybe then. Until then all they seem to be is another bill.
> 
> Bob


Bob the bottom line is if you dont have a state of Il roofing license and you are doing roofing work you are breaking the law. To be licensed in the state of IL a lengthy test is required. Most roofers fail on or two times before passing. I do think that licensing carries weight, alot of weight. I just wish it was better enforced and theyd crack down on the so called roofers who operate without one.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Wait a second here... You said this is for an association (town home, condo, etc...) and he asked you to sign on the spot? I know it never hurts to try but sheesh he must not do any association work.


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## DMM (Oct 17, 2005)

*To Mr. Grumpy*

Thanks! Exactly my point. Although we do not (a rarity) have an association with fees etc. we do get together and decide on things that are needed, just friendly and cooperative. The point is, the roofer doesn't know this. We do, though, have to speak to all involved and tell them exactly what the roofer is going to do and what materials he's going to use.

By the way, I am attempting to find out what BRANDS of shingles are okay to use. I have heard there are junk shingles. Does anyone have a preference for a shingle that is decent and has a good reputation? We aren't in the upper class areas with the cooper roofs but we live in a nice residential area and the places, though not upscale and rich, are cute. We'd like to keep it that way.

Any suggestions on what shingles to stay away from or is this taboo? If so, ignore the question and thanks for all the help. DMM


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Grumper, I had a IL state roofing license in the 80s, no test back then, I never got asked for it, never had to display it, in fact, I can't remember the subject ever coming up on job related issue.

I wouldn't categorize me as a "so called" roofer just because a peace of papers not on my wall. I think I've installed about every kind of roof made, hot mop, shake, conventional, steel, vinyl, and ah yes.......GLASS. If a fella can successfully glaze sloped glass, from scratch might I add, shingles don't amount to crap.

I understand the requirement for regulation, however if you do great work, I can't see the need for it.

Isn't the test mainly contract law anyway?



Bob

Oh yea....one more thing.....So DMM, whatcha wearing?:jester:


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

As of June or July 2003 a test was instated for all roofers to be licensed. Anyone who paid for the license previously to 2003 are grandfathered in... and yes anyone could be a state licensed roofer by simply dropping a few hundred bucks before 2003. What a joke that license was then. 

I get customers asking me all the time about licensing. These are usually people who have purchased home improvements in the past and got burned one way or the other. I have had quite a few builders ask me for my license and insurance before they'd even show me a print. That's all fine by me I have nothign to hide. I make it part of my sales presentation to show the customer my license and insurance since I get asked so frequently. Also I can't even get a roofing permit without having a state license. How do you pull permits?

As far as contract law goes. ZIP. I can not remember a single question regarding contract law on my license exam. There were alot of questions about saftey which I feel is good to know, such as how far to distance your ladder from power lines and how far the ladder needs to be placed over the roof edge, what type of fall protection you need on an 8/12 which is 25' off the ground. In addition there were several questions on how to properly determine the square footage of a roof and quite a few other general estimating questions such as slope factors etc... There were also quite a bit of technical questions about the makeup of different types of roof systems and chemical compatibilities. 

The roofing exam is no joke. Like I said most experienced roofers fail once or twice before passing... and if you don't know crap about roofing, I can see no possible way someone could pass. The test is broken down into 3 (or 4) parts. Each part requires you to pass seperately or you fail the whole exam. You need a 70% on each part to pass. The first time I took the test I got a 69% on the low slope section of the exam but passed the rest of the secions with flying colors, but because I failed the low slope section I failed the whole exam... Second time I took the test I passed everything with flying colors. The second time I took the test I saw quite a few familiar faces that were with me for my first exam. The point again, this test is no joke, I truly feel it is worth something.

There are two types of roofing licenses in the state of IL, the limited (sloped roof only) and the unlimited (sloped and flat). I have the unlimited license.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Since this is a row of townhouses you may want to have it specified that any deck wood that is replaced, is replaced with the right stuff. Here in NJ I believe it is 4' on either side of the party wall has to be fire rated plywood. If he pulls any of that make sure he replaces it with fire rated...costs more than plain CDX.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

No disrepect, Grumpy but some of these things didnt apply to me though I wished they had. Also, the Union Contractors dont take any test. I know that because I'm friends with a guy who runs a local union roofing outfit. The licenseing before had mainly to do with insurance requirements. Anybody could have gotten one.



> previously to 2003 are grandfathered in...


I wasnt grand fathered in, I have had a license for 10 yrs. I had to have a qualifying party pass the test.




> There are two types of roofing licenses in the state of IL, the limited (sloped roof only) and the unlimited (sloped and flat). I have the unlimited license


.

The limited license had quite a bit of low sloped questions. The unlimited goes into more depth.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Glasshousebltr said:


> Why don't you tell us what he's charging?
> 
> What pitch is your roof, can you walk it?
> 
> ...



Two times in the past year a homeowner has told me, "yes the roof is walkable I've been on it". On one occasion the roof was a 9/12 the other time it was a 10/12!


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

In MN there are two types of licenses which can be used to pull permits for roofing.
1. General Contractors License, 50 question trades test, 50 question business and law test, $300K liability insurance, workers comp policy, $45 per test, $100 into the bond pool, $100 license charge.

2. Residential Roofing License, 50 question roofing test (flat, sloped, wood, ect.) 50 question business and law test, $300K liability policy, workers comp policy, $45 per test, $5,000 bond, $100 license charge.

I've got the second license and it's a fairly hard test to take. Many of questions are what's the minumal required by state law, 4in, 6in, 8in, 10in. When I would stop and think what I usually do the answer such as 12in was not there!

Of my four builders the two smaller ones are happy with $300K liability, one demands $1 million and the other $2 million. So as far as the state requirement of $300K is peanuts. 

My father who's been roofing for 30 years has never been licensed will never be licensed roofs as good as the highest quality roofer out there and I doubt would be able to get even 60% of the roofing questions right. He's gone from running a very large roofing company to roofing just enough to pay the bills and live happily. On some jobs I pull the permit for him on the other jobs the homeowner pulls the permit for him. He has never lost a job due to him not being licensed but all of his jobs come from refferals. In his 30 years all the advertisement he's done was two truck magnets!!!

In this society we live in now however it would be wise to have a licensed roofing contractor roof your house especially if you don't know roofer A from roofer B in the phone book.

I've had a few homeowners over the past couple years ask me not to pull a permit since they don't want there property tax to increase!


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

I agree with Grumpy on all points.

DMM, the only 35 year shingles I know of are Atlas Pinnacle. I do not like the weight of this shingle, and do not beleive they would serve my customer properly for 35 years, even if you exceeded the mfg. installation specifications. The extra 5 years is a marketing ploy, IMO, by which the shingle mfg. is counting on you selling the house or losing your warranty info within the next 35 years, making their warranty worthless.

Look for a good company with references and check their references and confirm them. No local up to date references? RED FLAG! You can learn a lot about a company's professionalism by checking on their previous customers. I like to ask the customer if we can use them for a trade reference and have not been turned down yet.

I would be far more comfortable installing a GAF Timberline 30 year or a Tamko 30 year architectural.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

No bother...we would be bothered if you got taken by a bad roofer.


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## paroofer (Sep 30, 2005)

DMM said:


> Thanks! That's a good idea. I'll print out the thread for them. Though, if you'd like to get into the mind of the consumer they spat it all out at me today. "Roofers are the biggest crooks and make the most money." "Shingles cost nothing and it's an easy job." "They all do the same kind of job so why pay more?" "My husband can walk on that roof, what's the big deal?" *So then, let them walk on the roof, buy the shingles and do the job if it's so easy. No takers. Wonder why?*
> 
> We have to deal with this mentality all the time! The only reason they think this is because they haven't been educated on the process.
> Once you speak to a true professional, you wouldn't think that roofers are a bunch of overpaid crooks!


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Roofing doesn't take much skill, mostly just good sense and care about what your doing, with a few very important technics, however, anyone that says it's easy needs to see their shrink. I think it's about the toughest part of our biz.

PA, next time a customer says it's easy, tell them to bash themselves in the head with a hammer for 8 hours and get back to ya with a full report, your curious to how easy it is.

Bob


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

One last thing, you and your neighbors need to stop looking at price as the deciding factor in all this. Start considering value instead. 

A $900 roof isn't a good value if next year you have a warranty issue with the manufacturer of the shingles and the manufacturer won't cover it because the installer did not install by industry standards.

A $900 roof isn't a good value if next year they all leak and you can't get them fixed under the installers warranty because he is no longer in business.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Glasshousebltr said:


> Roofing doesn't take much skill



Show me how to do my next job with not much skill...

210 squares commercial flat roofing...
1/2" HDWF
38 squares of perlite crickets
75# base set in hot asphalt
APPTGPFR fully bonded 
all over gypsum roof deck

Could the average carpenter call himself a roofer? 

Roofers need to be able to perform tasks of many different trades to be effective. 

That was the first ignorant comment I have ever heard out of Glass. :thumbdown


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## rockee (Nov 3, 2005)

*Payment terms*

One thing that I didn't see on the contract chat was what the payment terms were. 

What opinions does everyone have on payment? What % and when?

If I purchase the materials (now don't everyone get too excited), how would this effect the payment terms.

Any holdback that you think is fair and when to be paid?


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Ok, I agree, I slipped up. Somtimes I compare things to the crazy crap I'm dumb enough to do. 

Bob



AaronB. said:


> Show me how to do my next job with not much skill...
> 
> 210 squares commercial flat roofing...
> 1/2" HDWF
> ...


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

Rockeeeeeeeeeeeee...how are ya?

You already know my opinion on your question, but I'll post a summary here for new eyes to see if they want:

You (or anyone else, besides me) won't be buying your materials for your roof unless you agree to several contract stipulations which basically say "Anything that's wrong with your materials or delivery there-of, that slows us down in any way, will be charged at $75/man/hour" (paraphrase)

As far as holdback: There again, unless we agreed on it, in writing, BEFORE the job started, there's no holdback, ever. Inspect it when we're done, if you're satisfied, pay up. If you would have a problem later on, its a simple phone call to have me look at it. (I know, I know...."so you say, JP, but how do we know") Well...I honestly see your point, but none-the-less...no holding...ever.


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## rockee (Nov 3, 2005)

jproffer said:


> Rockeeeeeeeeeeeee...how are ya?
> 
> You already know my opinion on your question, but I'll post a summary here for new eyes to see if they want:
> 
> ...


JProffer - How r yah?

I guess we all frequent the same places. I saw this thread and couldn't resist since there was some contract talk and I wanted to get some answers from those in the trade.

I have to be honest. I have done houses in the past as a builder/developer, and hire subs to do the work. This is for a friend and I want it done right and for a decent price, but I still treat it as any job that I do with subs.

If I buy the materials, that will would remove any reason for a contractor to need money “up front”. I usually pay as work is completed with all of my subs. I received one roofing estimate so far and the roofer said, if I buy materials, and because it is like a 2-3 day job, I can just pay him when the job is completed.

As far as holdbacks, how about last 10% after a water test or after first rain? 

What are your usual payment terms, and please explain the thinking behind them.

I'd like some answers from those who have alreday posted in this thread, if you could.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

OK, I'll get past the "you buying materials" thing:cheesygri and answer based on the assumption that you did.




> If I buy the materials, that will would remove any reason for a contractor to need money “up front”.


You buyng materials doesn't remove the need for me to have money "up front", I still require 1/3 down as a "retainer" if you will. It guarantees your place in line, so to speak.




> As far as holdbacks, how about last 10% after a water test or after first rain?


I'll just say this: ***nail, nail, nail, nail (last ridge cap)*** ..."(me yelling) Get the hose Rockee":cheesygri . As I said, payment is due upon completion, in FULL.

If we're going to continue this, we should start another thread. We've hijacked long enough:thumbsup:


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

regardless of who buys the material, 50% down, balance, including extras uppon completion. If payment is not recieved in full, intent to lien is sent, and after the required time frame, lien is filed, unless, of course, payment is made before that time. One could easily write a panalty into the contract if payment is not made upon completion.


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## rockee (Nov 3, 2005)

AaronB. said:


> regardless of who buys the material, 50% down, balance, including extras uppon completion. If payment is not recieved in full, intent to lien is sent, and after the required time frame, lien is filed, unless, of course, payment is made before that time. One could easily write a panalty into the contract if payment is not made upon completion.


Well, now we're down to brass tacks, so to speak. Nothing personal, AaronB.

If you're doing a 5K job for me, and I supply materials, why should I give you $2500 when you arrive?

You guys say that you won't trust a customer, so put it the other way around. OK?

What about if you decide to go on vacation after lunch and never come back?

And what is this about an intent to lien being filed? Isn't this a little harsh?

With my experience, if someone is isn't going to pay you, a penalty won't matter.

How about if I give you some trade references and pay you something at the end of day 1, if you don't trust me?

What is an equitable solution for both sides?


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

This is exactly why you have to deal with reputable, local, established contractors. I guess they could easily burn me, and I them, if so inclined. 

I do not feel it harsh to file intent to lien, cuz if they decide (for whatever reason) not to pay, then lets get to the humpin cuz the foreplay aint so good. I am not here to play around with homeowners that want to mess with any excuse not to part with their money, even though I have completed my part of the agreement. I have a collection cost clause in my conract. 

If they still dont want to pay, foreclose the lien, force them to sell, and then you will get your money at closing.


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## rockee (Nov 3, 2005)

AaronB. said:


> This is exactly why you have to deal with reputable, local, established contractors. I guess they could easily burn me, and I them, if so inclined.
> 
> I do not feel it harsh to file intent to lien, cuz if they decide (for whatever reason) not to pay, then lets get to the humpin cuz the foreplay aint so good. I am not here to play around with homeowners that want to mess with any excuse not to part with their money, even though I have completed my part of the agreement. I have a collection cost clause in my conract.
> 
> If they still dont want to pay, foreclose the lien, force them to sell, and then you will get your money at closing.


Aaron,

Lighthen up.

Tell me what you think is a fair and equitable win-win payment situation for a customer and a contractor who have never dealt with one another before.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Lighten up? What do you mean?

I find 50-50 to be fair, but not all contractors do as they say. :thumbdown


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## Romex-Racer (Jun 9, 2005)

*They say...*

They say you only have one chance to make a good first impression. I have been exposed to many people who've made bad first impressions. I have never witnessed someone who made a bad first impression actually do a good job.

Businessmen lead with the best possible image they can muster. They want to sell jobs and will try to look as good as possible. It's reasonable to assume that they don't put the same effort into other facets of their business.

There's no doubt in my mind that this guy is a clown of extrordinary magnitude. I've seen this show too many times and it always has a bad ending.

There's a lesson here for us contractors. We always wonder how these lowball hacks manage to attract work and stay in business. It's because some customers desire a low price so badly they will ignore all the warning signs and hope for the best. The DIY TV shows have taught them that the building trades are easy and anyone can do it so there's an arrogance at work as well. The higher priced professional roofers are thought of as crooks and the real crooks get the job!

People who shop for strictly the lowest price deserve what they get. When they get scammed or get a crappy job with no warranty support, they love to play the innocent homeowner role, penning letters to state agencies and TV consumer affairs reporters...

This DMM lady sounds like a nice, intelligent, articulate, well thought out woman. If you met her, you'd probably take note of her alert and attentive demeanor. She seems normal but she's bound and determined to throw caution to the wind in favor of a ridiculously low price.

Low ball hacks don't get much repeat business, so they need to convert leads to sales at a higher rate than the rest of us. They do it with low ball prices and by instilling a sense of confidence in their customers.

DMM has been really straight with us and I hope for her sake this has a happy ending.

Whoop! Whoop!


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## rockee (Nov 3, 2005)

AaronB. said:


> Lighten up? What do you mean?
> 
> I find 50-50 to be fair, but not all contractors do as they say. :thumbdown


I'm talking about your "tone" and you being so quick assume you need to start thinking about liens. Have you dealt with so many bad customers that you need to do this?

How about if a job is like $5k, the customer buys materials, the job will take 5 days, and you get paid $1000 at end of day 1, $1500 mid-week, and $2500 at end of job?

Why isn't that fair?


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

Because...(and I'm not trying to speak for Aaron)...if I get the $1000 at the end of day one, then mid-week I get nothing, naturally I'm not coming back until I get the mid-week payment (at least). So, there you sit, roof almost done (but not quite), sittin' on your money (my money), laughing all the way to the bank...then it rains. NOW, I'm the a$$hole that didn't finish the roof, and I'm also the a$$hole that you'll take to court and waste MORE of my time when I could be out working trying to make up for YOUR bad debt.

And BTW, if a job's going to take 5 days, it's gonna cost alot more than 5K.

How 'bout this Rock...I get paid $1000 at the BEGINNING of day one, and $1000 more at the beginning of each subsequent day. First day you don't pay, we pack up and leave and you're moved directly to the END of the schedule. Fair enough?


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## rockee (Nov 3, 2005)

jproffer said:


> Because...(and I'm not trying to speak for Aaron)...if I get the $1000 at the end of day one, then mid-week I get nothing, naturally I'm not coming back until I get the mid-week payment (at least). So, there you sit, roof almost done (but not quite), sittin' on your money (my money), laughing all the way to the bank...then it rains. NOW, I'm the a$$hole that didn't finish the roof, and I'm also the a$$hole that you'll take to court and waste MORE of my time when I could be out working trying to make up for YOUR bad debt.
> 
> And BTW, if a job's going to take 5 days, it's gonna cost alot more than 5K.
> 
> How 'bout this Rock...I get paid $1000 at the BEGINNING of day one, and $1000 more at the beginning of each subsequent day. First day you don't pay, we pack up and leave and you're moved directly to the END of the schedule. Fair enough?


How about $1000 beginning of each day, and last $1000 at end of job?

It all becomes a matter of trust.

I had two roofers who never have worked for me already say to me:
"hey, just pay me at then end of the job and you buy the materials".

I guess they think I'm trustworthy - and I AM!

As far as a 5K job, taking 5 days, wouldn't the time depend on how many are on the crew - two men would take longrer than 6 men - correct?

This leads to yet another question.

Which is better for me, in your opinion - 6 men working on a 15 square roof or 2 men?

How about for a 50 square roof?


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

On a 15 sq., 2 men...5 max no matter what size...more than that just get in the way of each other (unless you're talking a hundred sq.)

Oh, and you missed a question my friend. If I don't get paid at the beginning of any given day, for ANY reason, (you overslept, family emergency, any reason), you go prompty to the end of my schedule (could be a week..month...more..who knows???)...is that agreeable? I would assume not, which is why I require 1/3 down. For 1/3 down I can usually cover costs (not including materials), then if you don't pay, I lien your house and wait it out. Any less than 1/3 (such as your $1000), then I'm spending money out of my pocket. I'm not willing to do that. And I agree totally with Aaron on the lien issue. I MIGHT give you one day, maybe. After that it's a 10 day notice, and on day 11, I'll slap a lien on your place. Pay your bill, plus cost of lien filing, and I'll remove it.


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## rockee (Nov 3, 2005)

jproffer said:


> On a 15 sq., 2 men...5 max no matter what size...more than that just get in the way of each other (unless you're talking a hundred sq.)


If the roofing contractor says:
"Well, I can blast that out in 2 days with 6 guys. I should have it stripped and papered at the end of day one."

Should I be concerned? Are they working too fast?


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

Someone told you they could "blast" out a 15 sq. roof in ONLY 2 days with 6 guys? That's not exactly what I'd call a "blast". We could do 15 sq. rip/roof walkable in 2 days with TWO guys.

Maybe I wasn't clear on that quote...2 men on a 15...no more unless there are very unusual circumstances. 5 men MAX on any size roof, but never 5 on a 15, there's no reason.


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## rockee (Nov 3, 2005)

jproffer said:


> Someone told you they could "blast" out a 15 sq. roof in ONLY 2 days with 6 guys? That's not exactly what I'd call a "blast". We could do 15 sq. rip/roof walkable in 2 days with TWO guys.
> 
> Maybe I wasn't clear on that quote...2 men on a 15...no more unless there are very unusual circumstances. 5 men MAX on any size roof, but never 5 on a 15, there's no reason.


OK. Now we're getting someplace and this is making sense.

Let's assume the roofer gave me a quote that I thought was on the high side. I think he over-estimated by 2 squares (not a big deal, but %-wise it is on a 13-15 square job). 

I ask him how long to do this and he says 2 days or so. How many men - he says 6 men.

So possibly he is using the 6-men figure to justify his somewhat inflated price.

What do you think, honestly?


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

OK, getting past the fact that I truly believe 6 people on a 15 sq. roof is way...WAY too many. If I did have that many guys on any roof, I don't think that would bear a lot on the price. 

More guys = more $ out/hour, BUT = more work/hour = less hours total
Less guys = less $ out/hour, BUT = less work/hour = more hours total

Assuming 6 guys can do the work of 2 guys on 1/3 of the time: (lets use 30 hours/10 hours...because it's even and easy to divide, but it really shouldn't matter)

$15(plus burden)/hour/person x 6 people = $90(plus burden x 6)/hour x 10 hours = $900 (plus burden x 6) total

$15(plus burden)/hour/person x 2 people = $30(plus burden x 2)/hour x 30 hours = $900 (plus burden x 2) total

The burden prices even out when divided down the an hourly price.

If anything having 6 people on it would save you money, because we would only have to set up one time (or maybe 2...10 hours is right on the edge of making it one long day, or one normal day and one morning) instead of 4 times.

(That is assuming, again, that 6 guys on a 15 sq. roof wouldn't be tripping over each other, or otherwise slowed down because of the other 5...which they would)


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## rockee (Nov 3, 2005)

*Tough talk*



jproffer said:


> On a 15 sq., 2 men...5 max no matter what size...more than that just get in the way of each other (unless you're talking a hundred sq.)
> 
> Oh, and you missed a question my friend. If I don't get paid at the beginning of any given day, for ANY reason, (you overslept, family emergency, any reason), you go prompty to the end of my schedule (could be a week..month...more..who knows???)...is that agreeable? I would assume not, which is why I require 1/3 down. For 1/3 down I can usually cover costs (not including materials), then if you don't pay, I lien your house and wait it out. Any less than 1/3 (such as your $1000), then I'm spending money out of my pocket. I'm not willing to do that. And I agree totally with Aaron on the lien issue. I MIGHT give you one day, maybe. After that it's a 10 day notice, and on day 11, I'll slap a lien on your place. Pay your bill, plus cost of lien filing, and I'll remove it.


Let's look at this another way, if we could.

There are many many instances in my area of homeowners who have naively paid 50% down on a job, and the contractor either goes South (just an expression) with the cash, or shows up on day 1 and is never heard from again. The homeowner tries to take this guy to court and either can't find him, or his company has been dissolved, and he has started another company. How do we make it fair for this homeowner and protect him, as well as you?


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> How do we make it fair for this homeowner and protect him, as well as you?


Total Price ÷ Estimated # of days = X

You pay X at the beginning of each day (including the last day...not at the end of it) as long as you agree to the terms I have stated several times (no pay = end of schedule, etc.).

I hate to keep repeating that, but that's honestly the best I can do for you.

As stated, your thinking is why you should only hire local, reputable contractors. I can't imagine anyone agreeing to the terms I set for the payment schedule you've set forth. It should never even come up, but if it did, and if they were as stubborn...I mean steadfast:cheesygri as you are, then they would be required to sign a seperate contract amendment.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

rockee said:


> How do we make it fair for this homeowner and protect him, as well as you?


You're looking for an environment in which the homeowner can buy services free of risk. The only way to approach that is by due diligence in the hiring process. There's almost no reason, in this day and age, why anyone should be surprised after-the-fact to find that a contractor is disreputable; except of course because they didn't bother to investigate beforehand. If you really want a job well done, resign yourself to waiting and paying for it. Why should the good contractors need to observe business practices that are designed to accomodate the bad ones?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Job under $1000. 100% paid at end of job on final day.

Job under $10,000.
10% down, 40% associated with progressive work, 40% associated with progressive work, 10% paid at end of job on final day.

Job over $10,000 gets a custom schedule but still 10% down, then smaller percentages probably in the neighborhood of 10-15% each.

I could careless about floating part of the job for a customer, or paying for materials and being 3 days out of pocket. I don't run my business financially on a knife edge. Trade accounts, credit cards, line of credit etc... this is 2005 isn't it? If I can't afford to be $30,000 to the bad temporarily then I don't have a financially sound business.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> I could careless about floating part of the job for a customer, or paying for materials and being 3 days out of pocket.


As long as it is only 3 days, then I agree. You're assuming they will pay you though, what if they don't? Also, (if I remember correctly) you work alone, so there is no labor costs. There are no (or very few) one man roofing crews around.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

jproffer said:


> (if I remember correctly) you work alone, so there is no labor costs.


Yes, that's true but I'm not sure what the difference would be other than adding payroll to your over head. The principles don't change just the dollar amounts do.



> You're assuming they will pay you though, what if they don't?


As you guys have outlined, systems are in place to deal with it for a worst case scenario (doing a $15,000 job and being out $15,000), however in reality you shouldn't ever be out more than a 1/3 of that in worst case, probably really only 1/4 of that really. Using only myself as an example since that is all I know, the 10% I already have, if they miss the first 40% payment work comes to a halt and I'm hopefully only out at the most that 40% but in reality with mark ups and labor and such I'm probably at worst maybe 20% out. So on a $10,000 job I might be at worst $2000-$3000 the wrong way. 

Like I said I can float that indefinitely or eat it if I had to, if I couldn't then something is really wrong with my business. Hopefully I never put myself in a position financially where one dead beat can do more than annoy me temporarily. At least I hope so.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

LOL...Mike I just realized we're arguing the same side here. Rockee has said that if he buys materials, then he shouldn't have to put ANY money down. You're saying 10% down and I'm saying 1/3 down. Either way, it's not Zero down, as Rockee would like.

As far as floating $2000 indefinately......why? 

Think back to when you were just starting out on your own. Could you then? Lines of credit, credit cards, supply credit, etc. has to be paid eventually.


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## rockee (Nov 3, 2005)

*We may be close here*



Mike Finley said:


> Job under $1000. 100% paid at end of job on final day.
> 
> Job under $10,000.
> 10% down, 40% associated with progressive work, 40% associated with progressive work, 10% paid at end of job on final day.
> ...


I feel like we're really negotiating now and listening to each other's points of view.

I think I could actually agree with what you have proposed for jobbs under 10K.

If the job takes only like 2-3 days, and we don't know each other, how about:
10% first day - not before job is started
40% by day 2
50% when complete to owner's satisfaction, which might include a water test

If job is under $1000, payment due at end of job


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## rockee (Nov 3, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Yes, that's true but I'm not sure what the difference would be other than adding payroll to your over head. The principles don't change just the dollar amounts do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does that mean I'll need to fly you out to the East Coast to do the job?
:biggrin:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

jproffer said:


> As far as floating $2000 indefinately......why?


Hey, don't get me wrong I have no desire to take it in the shorts for any reason, my point is only that I don't operate on the basis of robbing Peter to pay Paul, hand to mouth or however you want to define it. I carry the ability to float as much as I need financially so I can 1) take advantage of business practices such as not requiring large down payments which is an issue that consumers here have been programmed against, 2) not give up profits with ridiculous practices such as 10 net 2 on invoices (or anything you can think of that takes money out of your pocket simply because of lack of cash flow), or 3) build good rapport with my subs by never making them wait for me to get paid.

I'm currently investing back into my business right now by seeing no paycheck for the last quarter of this year because that money is going into image and branding with a professional designer and marketer. Sure it hurts short term but the plan is for the dividends long term will pay back many fold.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

jproffer said:


> Think back to when you were just starting out on your own. Could you then? Lines of credit, credit cards, supply credit, etc. has to be paid eventually.


I'm still just starting out, I'm at this just short of a year now. I'm the first to admit I don't have all the answers, that's why I love this place because there is so much to learn from each other here.:thumbup:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

rockee said:


> If the job takes only like 2-3 days, and we don't know each other, how about:
> 10% first day - not before job is started


I want my 10% up front when we sign the contract. That shows me the customer is for real, its also part of what makes a contract valid, the "consideration part".

I also get those odd sort of people every once in awhile who think we are actually working for them when we aren't yet. The people who want to put the cart in front of the horse, they want to go pick out stuff or get access to my secret suppliers before we have a contract signed. That's when I slow them down and explain it to them, _first we sign the contract, then you give me a deposit, your deposit then guarantees your position in my schedule and any new customer comes in behind you_. 

I also show them the verbage in the contract that their *deposit is non refundable*, and if they terminate the contract they will be liable for any other expenses incurred by me such as any materials accumulated or special ordered before the job starts or for time spent on pre-construction logistics.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Well, rockee, I am taking no tone. Being very non-tonal, if you will.

As far as lien rights go, if I do not get paid, the liens are filed. Shoulda paid me..its that simple. It's just business. I have only been burned a coupla times, and it didnt leave a good taste in my mouth, so this is our policy now.

If you pay a contractor and he disappears, STOP payment on the check! You have nine days to do so. 

I think it stinks that "contractors" burn customers. I think it stinks just the same that there are customers that try to burn the contractors. One guy that tried to burn me tried to withhold $180.00 from me on the basis of "inconvenience" because I had to have an emergency hernia surgery during his project. Fact was, he called the lowball competition and sked what his roof "should" cost, and said we were charging too much. I was not supposed to do roofing for 6 months, minimum, but finished his roof three days after my surgery. 

He got liened, I got paid for contract plus another 750 for the lawyer. He coulda saved himself the money and embarrassment.


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## canadian roofer (Dec 5, 2005)

Well my name says it all, here in Canada, OMG ice and watershild is a product that does very in quality....just like everything else, pay the extra for the better product...


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## canadian roofer (Dec 5, 2005)

Well aaron, 35 year shingles comes in a couple of brands ummm "GAF" ..."IKO"...and ...."BP" they all offer well let's talk about timberline
being a fiberglass bassed shingle, i see it being used in new construction.. and when fiberglass is cold it CRACKs...Organics are better...


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## canadian roofer (Dec 5, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> I'm still just starting out, I'm at this just short of a year now. I'm the first to admit I don't have all the answers, that's why I love this place because there is so much to learn from each other here.:thumbup:


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

Now go ahead and explain some of the pics.


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## DMM (Oct 17, 2005)

*Pictures of roofing job DMM*

Though no one could get on the roof due to inclement weather I do have some pics from a street angle. Thanks Cole, for hosting the pics for me. See, we DO exist!
Picture number 1 is just a shot of those shingles I hate.
In picture number 2 the flashing is upside down and they told us it's fine. It is not, it is upside down!
Picture number 3, what can I say? Fall into the Gap!
Picture #4 is a mess.
Picture #5 is all the nails showing. They told us to get a little paint of the same color.
Pic #6. These are architechtural shingles? I feel drunk just looking at them.
Picture #7. Do you see ANY flashing here? They were supposed to install flashing. I see none.
Pic #8 is the view from my bed when I am looking up. LOL There were more drips in my bed yesterday, in one day, than there ever were in my entire lifetime!! Joking...

These pictures aren't really good pictures and just look ugly to me. Can anyone see anything wrong aside from asthetics? I would never be able to pinpoint the flaws. I just know that I don't like it--AT ALL!:sad: (Because I'm dumb and it's MY fault!) DMM


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## DMM (Oct 17, 2005)

*pictures*

Sorry, didn't explain this correctly. In picture number 7 this board was replaced and was supposed to be covered in some material (I think siding) which would be white like the rest of the trim. This is a neighbor's house, all the pics are of the other homes, mine is brick and I have no pics of it yet. The board you see is bare wood, has no flashing under it and, as I said, is not covered.

Even though I find this unappealing if it were done correctly and didn't leak I wouldn't have any complaints except to say I think it's ugly. My opinion.

The parts that are done incorrectly, I mean the obvious things, are on top of the roof and I will send those tomorrow. 

Is this job as bad as I think it is or am I being, as they called me, a nitpicker? Thanks for telling it like it is. DMM


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

Well it's leaking so you're not being nit-picky. Even if everything was done correctly..it's leaking, there's no way around that fact.


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## old27 (Feb 13, 2005)

I am now dummer for having wasted 20 minutes of my life to read this thread. Sorry to be a cynic.


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## DMM (Oct 17, 2005)

*You are DUMMER?*



old27 said:


> I am now dummer for having wasted 20 minutes of my life to read this thread. Sorry to be a cynic.


Okay, I don't understand at all why anyone would be cynical so perhaps I am 'dumber' than everyone as evidenced by the stupid choices that I have made, but this thread is real and it annoys me that you guys think this couldn't happen.

No matter...you were right, we were wrong and yes, you told us and you knew it would happen. I have secured a licensed SC building inspector to check the roof. He charged us $200.00, made out a full report of all the problems and has advised that the roof is a 'sorry job', needs to be torn off and redone.

Thanks for all those kind enough to help and this thread is an example of what *not* to do when getting a roof so maybe the next homeowner won't be 'DUMMER'! Thank you, DMM


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## old27 (Feb 13, 2005)

DMM said:


> am I being a nitpicker? Thanks for telling it like it is. DMM


i spelled dumber wrong and you chose to use it as a motif for your retort..i guess you lied when you offered thanks for telling it like it blah blah blah. go to some love connection site if you need attention...sheesh.

Your Friend,

Clovis


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

Also those nails not being on the tar line on the shingles is a big deal. Thats a leak waiting to happen. If he penetrated all over those shingles with nails he pretty much ruined the shingle. But once again i'm not aroofing expert.

Ps. Easiest way to find out a persons reputation is to find the local coffee shop where the oldtimers hang out at and just ask around there. I'm a firm believer in not under estamating the local coffee shop. They no everything about everybody.


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## DMM (Oct 17, 2005)

*To 'my friend' Clovis*



old27 said:


> go to some love connection site if you need attention...sheesh.
> 
> Your Friend,
> 
> Clovis


Sorry Clovis, you're right. I apologize. Low blow on my part but I was so po'd by some people thinking this thread is bogus. Apparently it sounds so bad that people can't believe it can happen. It did and it's my fault and I guess I am rather touchy about it. You can tell it like it is if you call me a moron, a greedy idiot who took a low ball bid or a coward who caved to the neighbors but telling me that you are cynical (I.E.: that this thread is anything but the whole truth) gets my goat.
I sure don't need this attention; I wish that I would have listened and did my homework with, as the guys suggested "due diligence". I didn't and I feel like a total and shouldn't take it out on you.
As I said before, some people are put here as an example of what not to do. I am, apparently, here as that example. My apologies again Clovis. I've had a short fuse these days.
Oh, and for the poster that said those nails are a problem...HA!...not the only problem. I got much better pics after those (and of course the report from the inspector) and we have no crickets, no drip edge, no ice and water shield, no flashing, no felt in some areas, and blown nails in most of the shingles. The building inspector said, "I've seen enough."
Yes, I will sue him but won't get anything. All the court does is place a judgement against him; that doesn't mean you get your money back.
I have learned a lesson and you can bet I will proceed with DUE DILIGENCE the next time.
(Oh, and by the way Clovis, you look absolutely buff today in that new toolbelt.) LOL Mea Culpa. DMM


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## DMM (Oct 17, 2005)

*Thanks 747*

I appreciate the tip 747. Never thought of that but I do see the same people in the same places every day, just like in any small town. I'll try that. DMM


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## nalandscape (Jan 5, 2006)

WOW!!! I actually learned alot about roofing after reading this. I couldn't help but read on.
Ma'am with all due respect, you need to stop being so hard on yourself. I am not a roofer, but am a contractor,so I feel for you, but it seems that you have lost the interest of those you need the most.
The real pros, that warned you (basically begged you not to go with "Ringling Bros" unless you had them resubmit the bid with a new set of quidelines) still offered you support after your bad experience. 
You seem to be more effected by the reactions of your neighbors and ney-sayers than actually taking the advice of people who know what they're talking about. They (the pros that have guided you on this thread) are the only ones who didn't disrespect you. Yes, you have thanked them and all, but under the circumstances, you were unable to utilize they're advice.
So, I say print this thread for your records, you have some good stuff here and move on, resolve the problem. You have all the answers in this thread already. I am going to print it, so I know what to do &/or not to do, when I need a roof.


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## DMM (Oct 17, 2005)

*Thanks Shannon*

Yes Shannon, you are so right, though I didn't lose the interest of the experts; they're ignoring me. They are telling me, with out telling me, that they offered their help and advice, I didn't listen and they reserved the right to say, "I told you so." They are too nice to say it but I am not too dumb to know it's just what they're thinking.

If this thread exists as a tool for others to use as what NOT to do then it has served its purpose. Kind of like a "Roofing for Idiots" primer.

I'm also printing out this updated thread and then putting it to bed. When I am ready for the new roof I will refer to it with every step.

 me once, shame on you.  me twice, shame on me.

Thanks Shanon, thanks everyone. It was truly an experience, DMM


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## DMM (Oct 17, 2005)

*OH....one more thing.........................*

I forgot the most important thing. If one is thinking of getting a roof and lives in this area our company is:


J & R ROOFING & REMODELING :cheesygri 

CONWAY, SC AND MYRTLE BEACH, SC


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## paroofer (Sep 30, 2005)

DMM said:


> Yes Shannon, you are so right, though I didn't lose the interest of the experts; they're ignoring me. They are telling me, with out telling me, that they offered their help and advice, I didn't listen and they reserved the right to say, "I told you so." They are too nice to say it but I am not too dumb to know it's just what they're thinking.
> 
> If this thread exists as a tool for others to use as what NOT to do then it has served its purpose. Kind of like a "Roofing for Idiots" primer.
> 
> ...


Don't be so hard on yourself. It sounded to me like you were pushed into a decision by  neighbors. I understand about keeping the neighborly peace!
I hope you have complained to everyone you could have (township, BBB, chamber of commerce, etc.). Thanks for posting the name online, too. People like that have no reason to be in business.
I am definitely going to print this thread out and keep it on hand for those who really start complaining about price. What your neighbors don't understand is that not only are they interviewing the contractor to hire, THE CONTRACTORS are interviewing YOU also. When we come across people like that, we gladly say "No thank you......your job is not something I am interested in". and save ourselves the hassle. If you need a completely new roof, I would pick someone w/o the help of your neighbors. It's worth it, even if you don't get an extra discount!
Best of luck! :sad:


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

DMM said:


> I forgot the most important thing. If one is thinking of getting a roof and lives in this area our company is:
> 
> 
> J & R ROOFING & REMODELING :cheesygri
> ...


Did I read that OUR part right? Hmmm..... I bet you will not get any business from that kind of advertising. I feel sorry for anyone who did waste thier time on this thread. Must not be a very good roofer if they have this much spare time on their hands.


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## DMM (Oct 17, 2005)

*To Robert*

Robert,

I was being facetious. The company we used (these homeowners who got the roof with me) is *J&R Roofing and Remodeling *in Conway and Myrtle Beach, SC. I previously checked with the BBB. Because I put in J&R Roofing, (left out the remodeling) MB it came up with no records. Now that I have been checking all the things that I should have checked in depth I find that they are listed in the BBB under the name I posted for you readers in CONWAY, SC and have an unsatisfactory record with the BBB.

I am now making up a sign for my car. Think I might say, "J&R Roofing gave me shingles" or something like that. I'm kidding. But I am making a sign for the car and for the homes.

Thanks Joanna...you always make me feel less stupid. DMM


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Ok, I got you it just looked like you were saying "ha ha big joke I am a roofer and my company is, call me sometime" you should have worded it just a little differant.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

DMM, sorry to rain on the parade, but this thread has run its course. We usually don't allow homeowners to post here, as this site is owned and maintained for the benefit of contractors only. As to why we the mods have let it run on this long, I have no clue. I hope you got a lot of good info/advice here. Lord knows it shows the drawbacks to choosing on price against other qualifications. For further posting, please feel free to post at our sister site for homeowners, DIY Chatroom. A lot of the pros here visit there and help out.


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