# Price fixing and you (and me)



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I love nothing better than to show my brilliance by helping someone with technical information. Giving them prices does not fall into that category.


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

I have no knowledge of the whole price fixing thing. If its an issue then people need to watch what they discuss. 

Bottom line though is everyone's prices are different and probably should be different. Some people are faster than others, some people live in more expensive areas, others are not providing the same level of quality or service. 

Your price needs to reflex how much you want/deserve to make divided by the number of hours it takes you to do that task. Make sense?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Tscarborough said:


> I love nothing better than to show my brilliance by helping someone with technical information. Giving them prices does not fall into that category.


Not to sound like a snotty nose child, but why not?

I think it just comes down to we agree to disagree. Your not going to convice me and I am not going to convince you.


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

*re: Price Guides*



Tscarborough said:


> There are specifc rules about industry pricing guides, and they adhere to them, that is how they get away with it.


Federal laws?
Nobody's tried to sue a price guide for price fixing?

Thanks for the info
You don't have a link to those rules do you?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Tscarborough said:


> To repeat: Are you helping someone when you give them your proprietary pricing information? If there is nothing to gain, either to them or you, why do it?
> 
> Teach a man to fish or give him a fish, but in this instance, you open yourself up to liability by giving him the fish. Why do it?


You can keep asking me and I can keep repeating myself. But just see my above thread. 

I would also like to point out one last time that pricing is by no means proprietary by any stretch of the word. There are so many ways for someone to gather your pricing without you even knowing it.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Doesn't 'fixing' require collaboration? Negotiating to a predetermined price among individuals involved in the same or similar business usually within the same operating area? I also have some smattering of the National and International arena.

To repeat: Are you helping someone when you give them your proprietary pricing information? If there is nothing to gain, either to them or you, why do it?

Teach a man to fish or give him a fish, but in this instance, you open yourself up to liability by giving him the fish. Why do it?

If you are here to prove that legals are slime, you have succeeded.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Shoot, that didn't need proof, Teetorbilt, it is self evident.

I have raised the issue, and that is good enough. What you do is your business.


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

I have to agree Grumpy, pricing is by it's nature not proprietary
If a potential customer asks you how much, you can't say " I can't tell you, that's proprietary"
If they ask what make that concrete so smooth, you can tell them (if local regs permit) "That's proprietary"

I have to agree with Teetor's point also
I don't usually see "Negotiating to a predetermined price among individuals involved in the same or similar business usually within the same operating area?" on these boards
I certainly have never seen a "let's all agree to charge XXX" thread
Well, there was the "let's all wear bunny slippers when customer ask us to remove our shoes" thread


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

Pricefixing LOL. This is a federal crime and trust me no U.S. Attorneys office is going to charge 3 guys. In fact 3 guys wouldn't constitute price fixing. It has to be on a much grander scale. One that affects many people. Example 4 gas stations in town setting prices. That would effect the majority of the population of the town. I just feel there are to many contractors to fix prices. I mean no one says you have to go with one of those 3 guys see my point.

Price fixing is a federal Antitrust Violation. Which the U.S. Attorney would probably also add in a indictment multiple mail fraud counts and probably hit you with a racketering charge also. Let me take it one step farther and say this. Lumber company get together and price fix. Multistate. There is a pricefixing case because it effects EVERY CONTRACTOR.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Notice that TS has shifted to broadcast. My work is done.


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

747 said:


> Pricefixing LOL. This is a federal crime and trust me no U.S. Attorneys office is going to charge 3 guys. In fact 3 guys wouldn't constitute price fixing. It has to be on a much grander scale. One that affects many people. Example 4 gas stations in town setting prices. That would effect the majority of the population of the town. I just feel there are to many contractors to fix prices. I mean no one says you have to go with one of those 3 guys see my point.
> 
> Price fixing is a federal Antitrust Violation. Which the U.S. Attorney would probably also add in a indictment multiple mail fraud counts and probably hit you with a racketering charge also. Let me take it one step farther and say this. Lumber company get together and price fix. Multistate. There is a pricefixing case because it effects EVERY CONTRACTOR.


Amen, my thoughts exactly.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Google is the font of all knowledge (almost), but this is the best I can give you from home. This is from the Electronics Association website:
*
The best way to avoid possible infringement of the antitrust laws is to institute a program of compliance. At association gatherings, the association should resolve to avoid discussion of certain sensitive subjects. Informal gatherings which follow association meetings are particularly looked upon with great suspicion by the government.

Some topics which should be scrupulously avoided in all meetings:

1. Do not discuss current or future prices (be very careful of discussion of past prices).
2. Do not discuss what is a fair profit level.
3. Do not discuss an increase or decrease in price.
4. Do not discuss standardizing or stabilizing prices.
5. Do not discuss pricing procedures.
6. Do not discuss cash discounts.
7. Do not discuss credit terms.
8. Do not discuss controlling sales.
9. Do not discuss allocating markets.
10. Do not complain to a competitor that his or her prices constitute unfair practices.
11. Do not discuss refusing to deal with a corporation because of its pricing or distribution practices.
12. Do not attend informal sessions in which any of the above subjects are discussed.
*


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

The truth is that it still happens in a number of places that are below the sights of the feds. It also happens on many levels, I know of a few going on here and am taking advantage of it by offering better discounts.

If you happen to hear of my sudden death, Interior Designers are suspects. LOL


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Interior designators, may they burn in hell.


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> I apologize if it appears that I am attempting to stir it or accuse anyone of it; that is not my intent.


No, no. I meant nothing to you man! I only meant to convey how petty something like that is in a logical world, and how much of an a$$ it would take to stir up trouble with an excuse for a reason like that. It's just a natural side effect of people who want to be free as a bee and sheltered as a parakeet.


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## Browny (Feb 25, 2006)

SO then rs means has big suit pending?????? Cause if you go by them then its pretty much an industry standard?


I dont know maybe i am way off the mark. I didnt read the entire thread!

Also unions would then be price fixing?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Unions actually have a federal exemption.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

This is from 2004



> ALL POSTERS should read this- Antitrust suit
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

Appreciate the thread.
Like others have said it makes little sense to tell someone from Florida or Ohio what I, in Western Canada, am charging for whatever. It's meaningless info even without getting into differences in overhead, labour costs etc.
I got a lead on a re-roof, went and measured, handed in the bid, the customer calls me back, says "I want you to do the work, but XYZ roofing was $2000 cheaper, what can you do for me?" As it happens I said I could do nothing for him and wished him luck, but this was 'discussion' of prices. Does this mean that I, or XYZ would be price fixing? And the consumer? (for the sake of this thread, disregard that I'm in another jurisdiction) Rich.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Notice my official opinion has not waivered from the time of the original posting. It's a bull crap law.


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## Scott Young (Dec 23, 2005)

ts,

i have been here for a short period of time, and i am not sure of the /intent/ of your original post. if it were the all helpful post that it came across in the beginning, you have dismantled that vantage point by coming across as the all knowledgeable source on the law concerning price fixing. you haven't considered any of the other members posts. you only refer back that they are wrong and you are right. to me that smacks as a troll. if you have a lawsuit in which you are currently in then refer to your learning experiences. if you wrote the law of which you are so 'elegantly' defending then somebody get a rope. if you have years at prosecuting or defending such cases and have several reports in which to draw you conclusion then do so. other than that i will continue to give prices in my area cause they are a matter of public knowledge. infact there are adds in the local papers give such prices. there are flyers posted all over giving prices. there are radio broadcasts giving such prices. you sir seemingly are swimming up stream and then trying to convince the rest that that is the direction the water is flowing. i just don't buy it.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Grumpy, I agree it is bad law, but it is the law.

Scott Young. I don't know a lot about the law, but I have been forced attend classes on how to avoid putting myself in the situation, and have been involved indirectly in a large case in Texas.

I have no motive, other than I noticed how often prices were asked for and given on this board.


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

Tscarborough,

Thank you.


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## Dale (Aug 26, 2004)

Tscarborough said:


> No, AApaint, you can fix your prices however you want, but if you communicate those prices to another contractor, or a client passes your prices on to another contractor, it can be construed as price fixing. As this is a public board, well, you can see the obvious conflict.


Nah..I agree with AA. If this is actually true why isn't it happening?

If you say the price of painting a 10x12 room in Jacksonville Fla. is $500., what does that do? What part of Jacksonville..what substrate..what coating..what details..what condition..etc.

This is much different than a the price on a "complete" product like say gas or marble or paint in a can.

I wouldn't worry about it. The "prices" dicussed on this and other boards are alway varied even in the same geographical area and for the most part the price is determined by the market, the specifics of the purchaser, job specs and the salesmanship of the contractor.

So are you saying that the add in the paper that advertises "house wash" for $195.95 or "Roofing starting at $195.95 a sq. or "a burger and fries $4.95 has the potential to be a criminal charge?


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## Dale (Aug 26, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> This is from 2004





> ..that contained a plan, discussion of raising prices to make more money


The case probably pretty much revolves around this.


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

I agree Dale. The case revolved around people purposely CONSPIRING to FIX PRICES. I think unless that was going on any case against our contractors here would be laughed out of court. Nobody here has even thought of the idea until this thread was started, and I doubt anyone would ever let something go that direction around here. 

I see no reason for alarm when trying to share, teach, and learn like our members are doing here. The scenarios are far different and anyone with a sliver of intelligence should have no problem differentiating the two.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm in total agreement. Let's consider this thread closed.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

well burn the cost books just owning one makes you a accessory.  Don't ever look at a bid sheet either.  
This is a competetive market it's not wall street. Take your corporate training and put it where the sun don't shine. That white collar thing don't fly with real blue collars. :clap: We can smell you, you smell like pansies growing in a field.:w00t:


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Buncha nice guys around here let me tell you. I am a construction brat and have been on job sites since I was about five, and worked for wages since I was 14. I have worked as a common laborer, concrete laborer, ironworker, painter, form-carpenter, rodman and every other conceivable job involved with building things.

I am white collar now, for damn sure, but only because I learned how to do it in the field and paid my way through school. I contract on the side for fun and beer money, and if that makes you envious, too bad. You may note that I used my name and location for this board instead of hiding behind a cute and anonymous pseudonym.

I thought this was a board for professionals, but I can see that I was mistaken. Good luck and Good day, "gentlemen".


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Sorry to see you go Ts. Your story parallels mine except I decided to spend my time having fun full time and went back to being a 'blue collar' although I usually wear Hawiian shirts (kind of a trademark).


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## Scott Young (Dec 23, 2005)

ts,

now don't get all upset on us. you should know that folks in construction usually don't have much tact. i for one am short of it. just a pointer. if you had started by stating that you were in a class where you were being presented ways to safeguard yourself from being ruled against for price fixing, if you had given those areas that we need to consider, and if you had hard evidence where you had one guy conspiring with another guy to raise the price in a given area so that it was 'clear' case of price fixin' then i would have recieved you better. also if you gave the gray areas a nod that they could be construed by some as amounting to price fixin' then even that would have been palatable. but i understood your posts as been a hard nonnegotiables we are wrong in every case. thankyou for your concern for this forum, cause i like and have benefited from it. and, i don't want to see it go under. also thank you for information that will help safeguard us as individuals in the future.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> This is from 2004


 "set prices you can make a living with"

If that is price fixing then Walt Stoppelworth(sp) and anybody who writes columns in the trade magazines or gives seminars about running a profitable business are guilty as charged.
I can't believe that ruling wasn't won on appeal. Sounds like that attorney generals office was violating somebody's civil rights.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

First let me say that I was generalizing too much. There certainly are professionals on this board, and Gentlemen (and Ladies) too.

In Real Life (TM), I do not put up with crap like JustaFarmer posted, and after I kicked his ass, I would buy him a beer and we would be OK, if he was man enough to accept it.

I should know better about BBS's, though, since I may be a newbie to this particular board, but not internet boards in general.

So we will consider this thread closed, and you can make of it what you will.


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## sage (Feb 3, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> This is a competetive market it's not wall street. Take your corporate training and put it where the sun don't shine. That white collar thing don't fly with real blue collars. :clap: We can smell you, you smell like pansies growing in a field.:w00t:


:thumbdown :thumbdown Jaded are we. Whats the matter, wouldn't let you into college.:clap: :w00t:


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