# SER Cable through Joist/Stud Bay



## Richard_N_S (Jun 12, 2011)

Work to be done in CA, according to CBC, residential.

The panel was moved from its original location but the meter base is staying in its original location. 

The conduit has to be upgraded to 1-1/2" regardless and I'd like to find a method to reduce labor since the panel is nearly 55LNFT from the meter base. 

Can 2/0-2/0-2/0-1 SER cable, with the stock NM sheath, be installed without conduit in stud/joist bays; not exposed?

What about PVC conduit for service within the stud/joist bays?

Thanks!


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Don't know your code but here, the main must be at the meter or immediately adjacent to the meter inside the house. The main can be a simple shut off (breaker). That would make the panel you speak of a sub-panel. The sub-panel may be wired with the appropriate size romex or emt. 

Sometimes the easy way is to change out the service to a combination panel with a main shut off and spaces for one or more breakers that serve sub panels. If there is only one sub panel a single breaker will suffice. 

The issue is, emergency personnel must be able to quickly find the main shut off.


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## Richard_N_S (Jun 12, 2011)

Agreed, meter base has master shut off. 

Can 2/0-2/0-2/0-1 SER cable with the stock NM sheath, be run without conduit in stud/joist bay, as long as it's not exposed in covered stud/joist bay?

What about PVC conduit for service within the stud/joist bays?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Richard_N_S said:


> Agreed, meter base has master shut off.
> 
> Can 2/0-2/0-2/0-1 SER cable with the stock NM sheath, be run without conduit in stud/joist bay, as long as it's not exposed in covered stud/joist bay?
> 
> What about PVC conduit for service within the stud/joist bays?


Here the restriction would be the fire rating on the jacket of the wire. So long as that's good I see no problem.


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## Richard_N_S (Jun 12, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> Here the restriction would be the fire rating on the jacket of the wire. So long as that's good I see no problem.


Thanks for the response! What is the rating that I'm looking for?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Richard_N_S said:


> Thanks for the response! What is the rating that I'm looking for?


Ontario residential building code would be CL3, FT1-90 or FT4-60 iirc.


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## Richard_N_S (Jun 12, 2011)

I've got my electrician telling me that this can't be done...

And then I referenced townhomes and condominiums that we've both worked on that've had 150amp feeders to sub-panels that are NM sheathed, but neither of us have ever done this...

The fire rating is a great point, but iirc PVC sheath does not meet fire rating because of toxic fumes, but this is another topic and daemon on its own. 

Has anyone run 2/0-3-1 SER cable and can give reference to this type of installation?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Richard_N_S said:


> I've got my electrician telling me that this can't be done...
> 
> And then I referenced townhomes and condominiums that we've both worked on that've had 150amp feeders to sub-panels that are NM sheathed, but neither of us have ever done this...
> 
> ...


PVC sheathing can have fire rating. For instance "Romex" here is FT1 NMD90. This means the PVC is FT1 rated for combustible buildings and the insulation on the wire is polyethylene with a 90 degree Celsius temperature rating.

FT1 is a CSA test : "A finished cable shall not propagate a flame or continue to burn for more than one (1) minute after five (5) fifteen (15) second applications of the test flame. There is an interval of fifteen (15) seconds between flame applications. The flame test shall be performed in accordance with Para 4.11.1 of Canadian Standards Association (CSA) Standard C22.2 No. 0.3. In addition, if more than 25% of the indicator flag is burned, the test cable fails. FT1 Cables can be used in Combustible buildings."

I don't know the NEC very well and it would be nice to hear an electrician chime in, but I don't see anything wrong with what you are trying to do.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Here. Article 338, and it references Article 334, 2013 CEC.

http://www.bsc.ca.gov/codes.aspx



If you're running conduit, the Inspectigator is not gonna like cable in the conduit. There is no actual NEC rule against it, they just don't like it. 





Delta


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## Richard_N_S (Jun 12, 2011)

Jacket run cable in conduit is by far a no go...

Spoke with a local inspector... as long as the cable has a jacket is protected from damage, covered by drywall or sheathing, is 100% allowed regardless of amp/gauge.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Richard_N_S said:


> Jacket run cable in conduit is by far a no go...


NEC allows it, as long as the conduit is sized appropriately.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Not allowed in conduit here although we are allowed to run as far as 15 inside the wall from meter socket to main panel. The inspector frowns on it but does allow it to 15'. I only did it once and it was the 1st time i ever saw him measure the distance for anything. On the exterior of the home? I have seen SEU ran down from the meter socket to the sill and go a good 60' around the home before entering the wall to the main panel.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

A few points. 
- SER cable is typically rated similarly to "Romex", NM cable. So pretty much anywhere you can run NM you can run SER. 
- PVC conduit, Sch40, is no more physical protection (in the eyes of the code) than the cable itself. Unless the conduit is complete point to point it is simply a sleeve for protection.
- The whole "no cable in conduit" is an urban legend code" perpetuated by those not familiar with the actual real code, and power mad inspectors.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> - The whole "no cable in conduit" is an urban legend code" perpetuated by those not familiar with the actual real code, and power mad inspectors.


I was talking to an Inspectigator once, and just for fun I brought that up. Of course he says "no, you can't put cable in conduit'. I said, "Oh, is there a code reference for that?' He said he didn't know, you just can't because it overheats. I asked about the specific requirement to put NM in conduit when subject to physical damage and he said "just short pieces". :blink: I said how short. Code reference? 


Nothing. 

I gave up after that. 







Delta


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## luckyshadow (Jun 18, 2005)

Speedy has it nailed !

The only issue I have had with cable in a conduit , was when a contractor decided to strip the cable and use the conductors. Then it becomes a code violation as the individual conductors are not labels as per the NEC


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

luckyshadow said:


> Speedy has it nailed !
> 
> The only issue I have had with cable in a conduit , was when a contractor decided to strip the cable and use the conductors. Then it becomes a code violation as the individual conductors are not labels as per the NEC


This I did not know.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> This I did not know.


Yep. You pull the conductors out of NM cable, you don't now have THHN.


:no:



Delta


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> Yep. You pull the conductors out of NM cable, you don't now have THHN.
> 
> 
> :no:
> ...


I've seen electricians strip legnths of bx for whips to light fixtures in emt...guess that's not kosher.


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## Richard_N_S (Jun 12, 2011)

luckyshadow said:


> Speedy has it nailed !
> 
> The only issue I have had with cable in a conduit , was when a contractor decided to strip the cable and use the conductors. Then it becomes a code violation as the individual conductors are not labels as per the NEC



Wow... had no idea!


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## bartstop (Dec 9, 2013)

How big of a panel are you feeding? Watch the ampacity if it will be installed with insulation.

"Where installed in thermal insulation, the ampacity shall
be in accordance with the 60°C (140°F) conductor temperature
rating. The maximum conductor temperature rating
shall be permitted to be used for ampacity adjustment and
correction purposes, if the final derated ampacity does not
exceed that for a 60°C (140°F) rated conductor."


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