# difficult client



## 1stchoice (Aug 12, 2007)

Good afternoon everyone. I need some advice from my piers. I have a difficult client. Working back and forth with her for about a week now. 

She is a real estate agent, he a General Sales manager at a local dealership. Met with him in person originally and we spoke about the home, an investment property, and just making general conversation.

Anyway after going back and forth with e-mails with his wife. Forst giving her a complete breakdown and estimate for each individual item.

Job consists of Painting, Hanging roughly 8 sheets of drywall, completing some drywall that others thought they knew how to finish, obviously not from the looks of the walls it looks like they just threw the spackle on the walls and walked away.

Some exterior painting, not much a day or so for the eaves, fascia, windows. Spraying the entire house. Flat white. trim semi gloss white.

Installing customer supplied Cabinets in kitchen, bath vanities, sinks, faucets, toilets, misc items.( I know a potential back fire) Im covered in my contract which clearly stated that there would be a back charge for unavailability of materials. My contracts are strong and they have been tried and tested, unfortunately.

Anyway after giving her a seperate estimate for drywall, painting, misc items. She says she would like to know the complete cost for all the work. So I total the job, send it within that evening.

Total cost $9500 Labor and materials. Before I sent this she came back to me and said the budget for the drywall was 2100, I quoted 2700.
Needing work I came down only because of the offer for additional work

Now we have all heard that before so I said I will agree to do the drywall at that cost if I can have a preliminary agreement that you will use my company for the remaining work. Telling her that over the years its been my experience that sometimes that promise of work never happens so I need a committment.

She sends a response - OK if we have to do it this way our total budget is $7500 for all the work. OUCH !!

OK- needing work I agree to do the entire contract for that amount.
Still making money but obviously not as much.
Sent the contract off this morning 
Heres her response-

We will review it tonight. 
In my last e mail I kind of explained that we would like to contract and pay 33 percent for the drywall and finish paying when complete. I don't mean to complicate this, its just a big job and a large amount of money to commit to when we have never worked with you before. Whether its a verbal commitment or a seperate contract for the remaining work that's fine, but that's what I was trying to explain in my previous e mail. 

I understood what she wanted. After all this my question is , should I run in a nice way, yes even though I need the work, or continue to be understanding and chalk this up as someone who obviously has had a bad experience in the past and continue to emphasize that we are different and we will honor the contract.

My thoughts I have already discounted about 21% from the entire contract so who is really placing more trust in who?.

I know that they are real estate investors and are looking for the best price.

Im not willing to negotiate anymore. There has got to be trust on both sides, not just from the contractor all the time trusting that you the client will pay him for all the work he has completed. 

All advice welcome.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

You are such a pushover! You came down 21% in no time flat. This sends a bad message. It says, I price my work high. Talk me down to a lower price. That is a bad business model. When/if they refer you to others, they will tell them before hand to talk you down.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

It sounds to me like she's gonna get the drywall for her named price, and never call you for the rest. By the way, I NEVER renegotiate price. What I quote the first time is what I need to stay in business. If I could do the job cheaper, why didn't I quote that price in the first place? My customers seem to appreciate the honesty. And I NEVER allow a customer to dictate a price to me. I'm the only one who knows my overhead and cost of doing business. I'm not priceline.com.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

You are running a business, not a garage sale!


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

I have a Real Estate License. She has a Real Estae License.

She and I understand contracts. If you have a contract the


> I don't mean to complicate this, its just a big job and a large amount of money to commit to when we have never worked with you before


 is BS in my opinion.

She enters into MUCH bigger contracts selling Real Estate. I doubt she ever used that line with a Buyer who wants to make an offer!


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

Job cost is $9500 mostly your labor and she wants to give you a deposit of $700, is that correct. 

If you're not putting out very much at all for materials < $1k you may have to get some work done to get paid. But upon completion....is too long. These types of jobs for me I invoice every 10 days, 3 days to pay or stop working.

Am I missing something ?


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## Bill Z (Dec 10, 2006)

1st Choice,

It's all about "control". She tested you when she said her budget was $2100 for drywall and you caved. That was the tipping point where you became her boot licker. She's in control from now on and she'll grind you down on every dollar. 

You said "difficult client", it's only the beginning. * Lucky for you there's still time to run. *

All the time you'll spend arguing and justifying your position (only to lose) with her, can now be spent finding a job where there is mutual respect between you and the customer.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

We Fix Houses said:


> Am I missing something ?


The pier.
As a general rule, I don't deal with people that are brokers or involved in some types of sales. I throw them off the pier into the deep end as they make their livelihood not working with their hands and selling things that they don't even own.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Warren has it right on the head.

Never EVER lower your price. Simply let them know that if they would like the price to come down, their are some items we can remove.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

She is not a difficult client, she is about doing business and you just don't know what you doing. 

You screwed yourself from the get-go...not to mention you lowered the price by 2 grand just like that...only showed her that you wanted to screw her by jacking up the estimate by extra 2k... and now you agreeing to do it for 7 and change which only indicates that you still making money.:whistling

Run from that job and grow some back bone, because she is not done screwing you yet, you will end up making zilch by the time she is done with you.


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## RS Sam (Feb 9, 2009)

1st choice, please don't let this be a bad choice. These kind of people break you going in & when you are all done they will break you again. Any & all problems will be your fault & that is what they will TELL EVERYONE THEY KNOW! 

There is nothing - NOTHING - in anything that you report that suggest that this job & these people are worthy of your dedication & craftsmanship. Please let it go.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

RS Sam said:


> 1st choice, please don't let this be a bad choice. These kind of people break you going in & when you are all done they will break you again. Any & all problems will be your fault & that is what they will TELL EVERYONE THEY KNOW!
> 
> There is nothing - NOTHING - in anything that you report that suggest that this job & these people are worthy of your dedication & craftsmanship. Please let it go.


Dedication and craftsmanship? We have no idea about either. We do know that he intentionally overpriced the job, and then lowered it 21% at the drop of a hat. Nice to have such high profit margins that you can lower them by that much. With all the licensing, WC, insurance and such that still have to be paid.:whistling


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I am going to be following Warren around the forum tonight and let him do all the talking (typing) for me.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Bill Z said:


> 1st Choice,
> 
> It's all about "control". She tested you when she said her budget was $2100 for drywall and you caved. That was the tipping point where you became her boot licker. She's in control from now on and she'll grind you down on every dollar.
> 
> ...


...boot licker... :laughing: :lol:


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## thorcctx (Nov 20, 2009)

all I can say is a Real Estate agent and a Car Salesman! you better be Sharp. Get your money and get the hell out of there, you don't want their chicken feed anyway!


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## Cutonce (Oct 1, 2010)

The job had all the warning signs right from the get go. 

Real estate agent. Use to hard negotiations and lying.
Dealership sales manager. Use to hard negotiations and screwing people.
Investment property. Means spend as little as possible and screw everyone.
Previous badly done work. Last guy bid low cause he didn't know what he was doing and clients went for it cause they only see the cheap dollar signs.

Run Forrest Run!!


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

You told here, when dealing with you there is no real price, it's all a contest. That contest has already started and you are losing big time. If you work for them, what you have dealt with so far is just the appetizer. 

The wisest course of action is to walk. No renegotiation, no work in the future, you have destroyed your integrity with this client.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

I would email her back stating that are sorry but you feel she isnt a good match for your company and move on. 



These types of people seem to have no problem getting as much as they can "selling" real estate to the tune of 3% of house sale, but decide how much to pay you for drywall..... I would call her right now and back out ASAP.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Great clients, a car dealer and real estate agent! Investment property. Giant red flags are flying!

Did they tell you how they can refer you to all these wonderful clients of theirs if you lower your price some more? All the previous advice is spot on. Get out before they waste your time and pay you what "they feel the job is worth". You won't make anything after they are done with you if you get paid at all.

BTW, search the forum for some good books on negotiations, business, and sales. It will be time well spent.


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## MikeGC (Dec 6, 2008)

Wow

Tell these dirtbags to kiss off and then go grow a pair before you talk to any more customers,


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

There is a large group of realtors out there that will want custom work done in their own home for real cheap... in the process they will promise you work to all of their clients. (What they are promising is crap work so they can get a listing on the market)

90% of the contractors on this site has probably dealt with this once... and woke up the next day and decided to grow a pair (like Mike said) :laughing:


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## ahava (Apr 28, 2010)

don't give yourself high blood pressure and hypertension. walk away.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Get away from these people before they take everything you have or you willingly give it to them.

You should spend some time reviewing this site to get some insight in to running a business.


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

1stchoice said:


> Job consists of Painting, Hanging roughly 8 sheets of drywall, completing some drywall that others thought they knew how to finish, obviously not from the looks of the walls it looks like they just threw the spackle on the walls and walked away.


Sounds like there was another contractor they used before you that "needed the work" too. Guess we see how well the promise of "future" work has panned out for that firm!

Run away! Don't walk! And follow the above advice and spend the time it would have taken you to do the above job searching this site. You'll earn a top-notch education, and be farther ahead financially not only for the next few weeks, but have something that will benefit you for the future.


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

cost is the cost, take it or leave it. Only way I ever change is if the scope of work changes. I dont like to haggle so i price the job fair and take it or leave it.


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## PlumbersSanJose (Apr 16, 2011)

She smells blood in the water and bullied you. At the end of the day you need the work so don't walk, but it is a lesson.


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## Calisota (Apr 15, 2011)

The title of this post was Difficult Client?

I find the opposite to be true. I read the post like three times. What a mess. Walk away, come back after a week or so to look at your emails and this post, and see what we're all seeing.

They were difficult because you let it happen. It has nothing to do with it being a rental, a car salesman, or a real estate agent. No one held a gun to your head.


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

I wouldn't go any further with these people.

I don't understand how you can go down that far with your bid, either you are pricing your jobs way high or you will get a lesson in losing money and what your overhead actually is.

When people ask me to lower the price on a promise of more work, I just tell them the price is what it will take to do the job properly, there is no room for adjustment. Some people do respect that (if not then they are just cheap) and if these people are really serious about getting the work done and they trust you they would probably pay your price if you didn't lower your price, if not then why would you want them as customers.

These types are nothing but a pain anyways, I wouldn't be losing sleep over it. They are used to doing business and you got taken for easy pickings.

Lucky thing for you is you are still in a postion to get out without losing money and left with a bitter taste in your mouth, resenting everyday you work there.


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

I agree that once you set a price, unless the scope or choice of materials changes, thats it. We do work for management companies. They always complain about price. I tell them look at that scope and pick what you want to change. But the price isnt going to come down for the same service. I would run away.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

BTW - Have a handy list of references ready for such clients. Then when they use that on you you can invite them to check the list.


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## 1stchoice (Aug 12, 2007)

*Quite a response*

Thanks for all the input. I appreciate it. 
First of all let me make myself a little clearer since theres been some question how could I lower my price by that much?

The original quote was higher and it reflected more man power, less time. (5) men on the job every day, completion time (2) weeks, etc. 

So the new price reflected less man power- via (1) man on the job.
Completing the tasks only (1) at a time. 
Time to complete - Estimated (4) to (5) weeks minimum. 
less man power, less costs, more time to complete.

I was merely trying to accomodate there schedule and have the work completed in a timely manner, professionally, not sacrificing quality.

After relaying this message to them I received a call from her husband on my voice mail last night asking me to call him.

I guess my request for the contract to be signed today with deposit in hand and only to my new terms may have spurred her to hand it off to him. 
The new contract will reflect longer completion times for any work contracted, (via-less man power). And I also stated no guarantee of scheduling the remaining work because we are coming into the busy season, if someone calls me, we come to an agreement, contract signed, deposit received and CLEARED, (I always state that in my proposals) we are moving on to the next job 

Now I guess we will here that the time frame is not going to work.
Great- You need to get the job done quicker? 
My response - In order to do that Mr parker we will need to have more man power on the job so my original quote to you of $ 9758.00 will enable us to complete the job on that time frame. :whistling

Oh Thats not in your budget? Well sir we can eliminate some things like -
Kitchen Cabinets- who needs a Kitchen
Toilets- Who needs a toilet
Drywall - who needs there walls finished anyway
Paint- Maybe you and the wife can come by on Sunday and spray the walls or make it a family affair and have some fun working on your investment property just like on TV
How about them doors? Do you really need doors on the bedrooms and bathrooms?
Oh yes maybe we can eliminate the removal of the remaining popcorn ceiling on half of the Living room? Im sure when the home goes up for sale no one will mind that look.

My point is there is nothing to eliminate- it all to needs to be completed, or installed.

Elimination is no option.

Unless of course I eliminate them from my scope of work to do.



Thanks again 
Well see where it goes.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

OK- needing work I agree to do the entire contract for that amount.

This doesn't make it sound like you changed anything.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

That makes no sense. One job that takes one man 40 hours is the same cost as two men who take 20.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Your premium to complete the job quickly has me confused. It does seem excessive.

Your man hours to do all the work should remain the same, but be spread over a longer period. You will gain some in efficiency because some tasks are easier for two (or three) to do than one. You will also increase management costs with more workers on site, and there can be some decrease in efficiency because people will literally be tripping over each other.

But 20% for a small job has me baffled


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## FRAME2FINISH (Aug 31, 2010)

its tough not to be a whore when ya need the work, however i feel your playing with people that you shouldn't be playing with.

when they say we will give you all the work run, its a lie i still work for the guy who promised me his work at his house, i had work at his building so it was all good but i let him know he screws me again and my gloves comeoff.

once they get the upper hand you lose alot of credibility and then your confidence will go. trust me been there done that. it gets old .

i once asked a guy how he felt about not getting a bid, his answer was glad because they were too cheap to pay him, ya gotta get some coins in the bank so you can say no.


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## PowerWash (Mar 25, 2011)

My experience is that two steady workers are three times as fast as one steady worker.

I would fire that customer, yesterday.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I think this is the difference between bidding a job, and guessing a job. Nobody bidding a job will drop 20% of the total cost, EVER! Someone guessing a job, may be inclined to do so as they have no clue how much the job will end up costing, it is after all merely a guess.


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## 1stchoice (Aug 12, 2007)

*What???????????*

Wow glad so many replied. Of course the personal assumptions could have been kept to a minimum.

After all were all professionals right?

Am I offended- never

Just trying to post occassionally and view often. Maybe this is why we dont see to many new posts from different people.
They dont want to jump in the lions den.

With that being said I do appreciate all who contribute so much valuable information by sharing there personal experiences within these forums.

And yes I will post again.


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## Cutonce (Oct 1, 2010)

1stchoice said:


> Wow glad so many replied. Of course the personal assumptions could have been kept to a minimum.
> 
> After all were all professionals right?
> 
> ...


Good for you for staying calm under all the assumptions here, if anything maybe it shows that you will be able to handle these difficult clients and come out with at least your skin! 

You've been warned by 100% here that these clients are out to screw you. So maybe your senses will be heightened enough to see when the dildo comes.

You mentioned that the woman past you off to her husband. Be careful with this one too. Divide an conquer. It's yet another negotiation trick to keep you running in circles. It leads to,
"why have you put this over here, I told you I wanted it here"
"but your wife said she wanted it here"
"I'm the one paying the bill, you do what I say, and since you didn't I'm not paying you"

Tell them in a nice way, that to stop any confusion, you only want to deal with one person. Even in a good situation it's amazing how much couples don't communicate between themselves and send you mixed messages.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

maybe your senses will be heightened enough to see when the dildo comes.:clap::clap::laughing::laughing:


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

1stchoice said:


> Wow glad so many replied. Of course the personal assumptions could have been kept to a minimum.
> 
> After all were all professionals right?
> 
> ...


I think you have the wrong idea here... most of the members that lashed out went through this type of situation before and were relaying their experiences so that you don't get taken advantage of

Tough love is the only way to learn!


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## 1stchoice (Aug 12, 2007)

No misunderstanding at all. I really appreciate and respect all the responses. Sorry if I came across like I was offended. After all I asked for everyones advise so to get offended, mad, or slightly upset would be totally wrong.
Besides I dont get angry anymore since the last time I really did I would up in the emergency room, they thought I had an (forgive the spelling) annurism. Once that needle got stuck in my spine that was enough for me. 
The vast years of experience here from all who are out there like myself is greatly appreciated. 


Besides I just sold a nice little job today for almost 6K. No haggles, no price slashing, just the way it should go.

God bless.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

olzo55 said:


> Great clients, a car dealer and real estate agent! Investment property. Giant red flags are flying!


RUN FORREST RUN!!!


Car dealer ... nuff said. Real estate agent ... glorified car salesman.

Investment property? They are the kind that hires craigslist crackheads that want beer money, not someone that is trying to make a living.

Did I mention ... RUN FORREST RUN!!!


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

I know this thread is long dead but this line should be remembered for all time.

*So maybe your senses will be heightened enough to see when the dildo comes.*

:lol::lol::lol:... :clap:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Whatever became of this? Were you silly enough to take on this project? As soon as they said they had $7500 for the whole job you should have shaken their hand and said "Thank you for letting me bid on your project, and good luck with it. Have a nice day." And then just picked up your stuff and walk away.

If you price something out and they don't have the money, you don't work for them. Plain and simple unless you are really hard up and need to work for peanuts just to get some money. It happens.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Leo G said:


> Whatever became of this? Were you silly enough to take on this project? As soon as they said they had $7500 for the whole job you should have shaken their hand and said "Thank you for letting me bid on your project, and good luck with it. Have a nice day." And then just picked up your stuff and walk away.
> 
> If you price something out and they don't have the money, you don't work for them. Plain and simple unless you are really hard up and need to work for peanuts just to get some money. It happens.



I am so hard up I have to say no to cheap work. I just can't afford to lose money.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I was talking about working for $10-15 an hour vs your normal business wage just to get money flowing into the coffers. Certainly not on a permanent basis, that won't pay the business bills but will put some food on the table, rice and beans, or hotdogs.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Leo G said:


> I was talking about working for $10-15 an hour vs your normal business wage just to get money flowing into the coffers. Certainly not on a permanent basis, that won't pay the business bills but will put some food on the table, rice and beans, or hotdogs.




If you are pricing that tight, you better be carefull. You don't have much room for error.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I'd go out of business before I'd work for that money. Not to say I haven't screwed up on my pricing and worked for those wages, because I have. The school of hard knocks is a great teacher. But working setting yourself up to work for that kind of money is only for hourly, never a bid..screw that.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

the fact that they are real estate ir car salesmen mean NOTHING..its just the type of people they are..period.

when someone dictates what something gets done for its time to walk..you don't work for them...you are doing a job for them..period.

some of my best clients and continued referral base are real estate agents..so don't listen to that garbage...
now..a house flipper...different animal..still has nothing to do with being an agent.
Many agents will be your best friend in biz and recommend to all of their new clients..unfortunately, she just doesn't sound like one of those .

a car salesmen may always assume there is room to negotiate, because in his world, there always is..and guess what..in ours, there is too.


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## MortarForker (May 4, 2011)

I myself have buckled and lowered my price on a job after the "good cop/bad cop" husband and wife tag teamed me..I did the numbers over and over and I did not get ANY sleep that night feeling like a idiot..I called them in the morning and met with them again that night and told them that I could not do the job at the reduced price.That after doing the math it did not work.I apologized for my error and still got the job for the original price quoted. A happy ending..They ended up being one of my best customers..:clap: Good Luck!


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I made 72 cents on a job once. That stunk.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I made 72 cents on a job once. That stunk.


Friends don't let friends discount. :thumbsup:

"Long Way Down (One Last Thing)"


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

thorcctx said:


> all I can say is a Real Estate agent and a Car Salesman! you better be Sharp. Get your money and get the hell out of there, you don't want their chicken feed anyway!


Only working for lawyers could be scarier, imo. 21 percent would be the majority of the o and p for me even on a small job like that. Coming down at all, especially 21 percent, would make the potential client wonder what your mark up is, I imigiane. JAW


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

On second thought I know quite a few realtors that are great people, and a good friend sells pre owned vehicles. Even met some good lawyers, just depends on the person I guess. 


Your the only guy who can make the call, and if your that hard up, you have to eat. Don't want to be anorexic on accident, that would suck. JAW


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## Eric K (Nov 24, 2005)

I just read over all these old posts, it's crazy to me that everyone's pointing the finger at the customer for screwing the contractor. Those people sensed they could save a few bucks and tried (they are also in buisness trying to keep costs low. 1st choice screwed himself by lowering costs. This also puts out a bad name for contractors and pricing. It gives people the thought that everything we do is negoiatable (sp). I never budge on my prices. People try but I don't screw myself like that. I can't go to the grocery store and offer 2 bucks for something that cost 5 bucks. Why shouldn't the same pertain to us?


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## sancho (Apr 3, 2010)

Real Estate agents are the worst, its all about the commish, I wouldnt need the money that bad. This is only the begining when dealing with one. Before ya know it you'll be paying them…
Ya gave them the bid, stick with it. 
These type of people will bend ya over inna minute


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## matsh (Dec 23, 2007)

1stchoice said:


> Thanks for all the input. I appreciate it.
> First of all let me make myself a little clearer since theres been some question how could I lower my price by that much?
> 
> The original quote was higher and it reflected more man power, less time. (5) men on the job every day, completion time (2) weeks, etc.
> ...





wow 5 men for 2 weeks for only 9500$ thats cheap, her we take about 23750$ for so many man hour. (400 hours)


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## Sportioli (Dec 18, 2007)

I gave a customer a $50.00 break today on a $2050.00 paint job. Moving a little is OK, but never over 5% at the most. And then, they have to give something in return. 

I asked for a written referral at the end of the job.


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