# Tile on a water feature



## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I am looking at a pretty cool indoor project...an water feature as part of a swimming pool. It will be a free standing battered wall, 10ft w x 9ft h from the bottom of the pool. There will be a waterfall coming from the top edge that contacts the wall at 2ft or so, then cascades down the face into the pool. Then there is a 2ft cavity behind the waterfall. Inside of the wall is a few mechnicals, pump and actuated ball valves but thats about it. The rear wall is steel framing with a tile or stone veneer.

A few questions...
I was wondering if should treat the cement wall surface like a shower. Should I consider using a liquid membrane on the concrete before appling the thin set? I'm wondering if its overkill...which I dont have a problem with, I just dont want to add unnecessary cost, labor and time to the project because it is time sensitive. But I dont want to have a moisture problem inside the wall in the future.

The tile is not specified but travertine is most likely to be used. So..

The thin-set I would like to use is Laticrete 254 platinum but was wondering, is there another brand that is equal to it performance wise? The other question is the grout...Will a cementitious grout hold up long term with the pool chemicals? They will be minimal because of a UV filter but you still have chemicals that are more harsh than what a shower would see. Somebody mentioned epoxy and my thought is that it would be a nightmare to work with.

Finally, there is a possibility that another smaller water feature will be added to the back side of the wall. The wall will be framed with steel studs. The question is what would be the best option for a wet wall like this? Durock or ? I let them know that if it is not concrete then it would need taped seams and a liquid membrane to block the moisure.

Any suggestions apprecitated.:thumbsup:


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

I would look into either Hydro Ban or Mapelastic 315. Both of these products are used on a regular bases to build outdoor and indoor water features.

JW


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> I would look into either Hydro Ban or Mapelastic 315. Both of these products are used on a regular bases to build outdoor and indoor water features.
> 
> JW


Thanks. Hydro Ban was one product I was considering.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Personally, I'd cover the concrete with AquaDefense and use a white thinset; Kerabond + Keralastic and QuartzLock 2 urethane grout. You will have an extended curing period regardless of what products you use. So before any of the urethane haters chime in with the 7 day cure "issue", for submerged applications most thinsets will have a cure time of 14-21 days before the water can be introduced. 

I'd seal all tiles with a penetrating sealer and wait 72 hours before installing them.
On the substrate assuming the concrete is older than 28 days, apply AquaDefense and let cure over night.
Install tile and let cure for 3-5 days.
Grout and let cure for 7 days.

If you use a cementitious grout, you'll have to wait a minimum 48 hours before sealing and then follow the sealing manufacturer's recommendations on further cure time before introducing water. That would be my last choice. I'd use at least an epoxy. However, there may be extended cure times (even more than urethane) with epoxy in a submerged application.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I just read your urethane grout thread Angus, good stuff. I have never used it before but never really had to. The pros of urethane vs the cons of cementitious grout answer a lot of longevity questions for this water feature application.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

update:
I appreciate all the advice that I have gotten so far. Now I am interested in hearing about a good combination of thinset, grout and sealer that would stop efflorescence.

Project is still in the plan/design stages. Some questions have been brought up about efflorescence showing up over time since the wall will have constant water contact from the waterfall and pool water. The structural cement wall (that will be tiled)is going to be coated with liquid membrane so the only source would be from the thinset used and the grout if it is cementitious. 

No specific tile is picked yet..it seems like they are leaning away from anything natural because the possiblity of efflorescence coming through it, even with sealer(which I am scratching my head about)....so it will probably be glass, porelain or ceramic.

...With all the wet applications like showers and swimming pools I know there has got to be a way to use natural stone and be successful..its just a little beyond my knowledge base.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

stonecutter said:


> ...I appreciate all the advice that I have gotten so far. Now I am interested in hearing about a good combination of thinset, grout and sealer that would stop efflorescence...



Effloresecence can come from many sources. The substrate. The stone. The tile. The mortar.

All you can do is weed out the variables. Outdoor projects here in Vancouver are littered with Effloresence problems. Much of which I believe the result of the lowest paid worker doing the mix and mix ratio for the mortar.

I have been using Grani Rapid from Mapei for almost a decade outside. I have done only three projects outdoors. Of those three - zero have shown effloresence.

Grani Rapid I believe is the only thinset that states it does not contribute to effloresence.

It needs to cure a week before tile.

No water, rain, wind, snow, hail, sun etc should touch your work until it's done.

Hoarding procedures are a must to keep this effloresence at bay.

Travertine can contribute as well I would think and if the Travertine is to be used in the pool and feature a large sampling should be tested for reactions to water.

Not sure I would be bidding on a time sensitive outdoor project with a water fall and natural stone. Something is going to rush you. And you need time to give the best results.

JW


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> Effloresecence can come from many sources. The substrate. The stone. The tile. The mortar.
> 
> All you can do is weed out the variables. Outdoor projects here in Vancouver are littered with Effloresence problems. Much of which I believe the result of the lowest paid worker doing the mix and mix ratio for the mortar.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks!
It is a large indoor feature John.:thumbsup: that eliminates weather issues.

The mixes with be carefully supervised..by me.

The cement wall would cure for 28 days then the liquid membrane would be applied...that should eliminate the efflorescence from coming through it right? The back of the wall will be covered up by steel stud framing and backer board(the other side had more tile) with a space between the walls for mechanicals..so no aesthetic issue there.

Travertine itself does not produce efflorescence but it would definately transmit moisture and salts more than something like granite. Thats were the question of a good sealer and grout come into the picture....something other than cementitous seems to be the way to go from what you guys have discussed in the past.

The final point, time. This is not even going to be built for several months..I'm just doing research (and asking your opinions:thumbsup so I will be ready when the time comes and have confidence in what is being done.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

stonecutter said:


> ...
> Travertine itself does not produce efflorescence but it would definately transmit moisture and salts more than something like granite. Thats were the question of a good sealer and grout come into the picture....something other than cementitous seems to be the way to go from what you guys have discussed in the past....



We just wrapped up a 2 day soak test and dryout on 6 Travertine tiles.

Of the six only 2 remained unchanged.

2 went slightly pinky around the veining and 2 went a lot pinky around the veining.

I would push for a Porcelain tile or aske them to order a large surplus of the real thing and soak and test the lot before installing.

Nothing worse than seeing a rusty pinky wall in your waterfall feature of white carrera steam shower.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> We just wrapped up a 2 day soak test and dryout on 6 Travertine tiles.
> 
> Of the six only 2 remained unchanged.
> 
> ...


Yikes...yeah the travertine that has dark veins or any Orange/gold would have iron oxide in it. If travertine is even considered my recommendation would be something like ivory, walnut or silver to avoid bleeding like that. Soak testing is a good idea though.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

I would use all Laticrete products because of the warranty. Or use one maufacturer of your choice. In case anything happens, the finger pointing will be limited. Definitely waterproof the substrate. I don't know the longevity of ureathane outside but I have used epoxy or high cement content grout. However, epoxy might change color under UV rays.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> I would use all Laticrete products because of the warranty. Or use one maufacturer of your choice. In case anything happens, the finger pointing will be limited. Definitely waterproof the substrate. I don't know the longevity of ureathane outside but I have used epoxy or high cement content grout. However, epoxy might change color under UV rays.


I have used Laticrete several times(I used to live about 45min from the plant) and a few of the others..I dont really have a preference. Inside job so no uv concern.


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