# Price to fill R-22 Freon



## BiggersJunior

I had an HVAC tech come over tonight and he filled my unit with 5lbs of freon. He checked my 2 units to make sure they were both full. He was here for about an hour and charged me $200. Is this a fair price?

He said the cost of freon has risen dramatically over the past several months. How much do you guys charge for a similar service, or what price per lb do you charge? I look forward to your comments.


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## BACKWOODS

You got a good deal. I have seen freon go for $40-80 per lb. Plus the service call charge. If he did use 5 lbs you have a heck of a leak . Your friend may be back soon.


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## cityconnection

Hi. In Miami that price is about right. The only thing is that in order for the freon to leak out, there has to be an open pore in the lines. Freon doesn't just escape out of a system. He must have cap the leak and refilled the system back up. If you have to call him because your system isn't cooling, he really didn't do the right thing in the first place and charged you too much. Freon has gone up in price. I don't know how old your system is but soon all Freon 22 will be gone and only 410A Freon will be available. Your system may not be suitable for that type of freon.



BiggersJunior said:


> I had an HVAC tech come over tonight and he filled my unit with 5lbs of freon. He checked my 2 units to make sure they were both full. He was here for about an hour and charged me $200. Is this a fair price?
> 
> He said the cost of freon has risen dramatically over the past several months. How much do you guys charge for a similar service, or what price per lb do you charge? I look forward to your comments.


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## BiggersJunior

My system is only about 4 years old. He said he would fill it for now and come back in about 2 weeks and recheck it. Then we can determine where it's leaking and fix the problem. The systems are under warranty for 10 years. He didn't originally install them and I don't really care to deal with the guy that did. Any more suggestions? Thanks for your input.


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## A.D. Const

$200.00 is a very good price for what he did, however, what he did was not very professional. like "cityconnection" stated above freon does not just leave the system. you have a leak, by just refilling he's emptying your pocket (next time another $200.00?) and doing damage to the stratosphere on the process, not to mention it's illegal not to correct a leak when you know there is one.:no:


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## SelfContract

*Proper procedure??*

1. Find leak use soap bubles??;

2. Pump/vacumn all old Freon out;

3. Solder/fix leak holes/line;

4. Refill/measure Freon to full level;

5. Testing & done.


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## willworkforbeer

Twenty years ago or so when I was a mechanic I had a freon leak dectector, surely any HVAC worth his salt has one these days.


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## BiggersJunior

He actually did me a favor and came to my house with only 15 minutes of day light left. He was here for about an hour and it was dark most of the time he was here. He said he will come back within the next 2 weeks and repair the leak.


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## flashheatingand

BACKWOODS said:


> You got a good deal. I have seen freon go for $40-80 per lb. Plus the service call charge. If he did use 5 lbs you have a heck of a leak . Your friend may be back soon.


$40.00-$80.00 per lb. of r-22? was that USD or Confederate money?:blink::laughing:


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## BiggersJunior

He actually said some companies charge up to $100 per pound. What do you mean flashheatingand?


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## flashheatingand

I am just a small guy,trying to build a business the old fashioned way. It's hvac companies that charge those kind of rates makes us look bad. I know certain larger companies have great expenses, but if they have to charge $100/lb to make a profit, they need to learn to spend their money more wise.

Call your local Goodman Supplier, and ask them to reccomend a good hvac person. Thats my advise.


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## acefurnacefxr

We dont just "fill" a leaking system, we find and repair the leak, then we properly charge the system to factory specs. We charge $134 a lb for R-22.


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## willworkforbeer

acefurnacefxr said:


> We charge $134 a lb for R-22.


Maybe I should start a freon theft business


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## beenthere

200 bucks for 5 pounds.

he's cheap.

I'd of been 290.00


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## beenthere

flashheatingand said:


> I am just a small guy,trying to build a business the old fashioned way. It's hvac companies that charge those kind of rates makes us look bad. I know certain larger companies have great expenses, but if they have to charge $100/lb to make a profit, they need to learn to spend their money more wise.


Some companies actually pay their guys more then just 16 to 19 bucks an hour.

So instead of putting all the overhead to pay a uy 19 bucks an hour.
They put some of it on the parts also.


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## flashheatingand

beenthere said:


> Some companies actually pay their guys more then just 16 to 19 bucks an hour.
> 
> So instead of putting all the overhead to pay a uy 19 bucks an hour.
> They put some of it on the parts also.


If you charge $290.00 for 5lbs of r-22, you better be paying$40.00hr. Plus their health coverage. 

I understand the concept of mark-up, but those numbers are obscene:furious:


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## beenthere

flashheatingand said:


> If you charge $290.00 for 5lbs of r-22, you better be paying$40.00hr. Plus their health coverage.
> 
> I understand the concept of mark-up, but those numbers are obscene:furious:


Not a thing obscene about it.

You probably think theres 200 profit at that price.
There isn't.


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## flashheatingand

Actually, it would be close to 250 profit. I know of the expenses. There are many.


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## beenthere

Ok. So subtract all the expenses and taxes.

And then see how little profit there is.

Its no where close to 200 bucks.


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## BiggersJunior

flashheatingand-

How much does freon cost per lb? How much would it cost you to buy the green bottle of R-22 freon?


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## NickTech

bill'em till ya kill'em:laughing::gun_bandana:


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## Bearclawz

A.D. Const said:


> $200.00 is a very good price for what he did, however, what he did was not very professional. like "cityconnection" stated above freon does not just leave the system. you have a leak, by just refilling he's emptying your pocket (next time another $200.00?) and doing damage to the stratosphere on the process, not to mention it's illegal not to correct a leak when you know there is one.:no:


*What are you talking about...illegal. As long as the unit is not leaking more than 50 pds a year a service tech is not under any obligation to find or fix a leak unless the home owner wants it done.*


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## beenthere

Bearclawz said:


> *What are you talking about...illegal. As long as the unit is not leaking more than 50 pds a year a service tech is not under any obligation to find or fix a leak unless the home owner wants it done.*


You got that leak rate a little misquoted.

Its 35% annually for a comfort cooling system containing 50 or more pounds of operating charge.


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## dmaxwell1

flashheatingand said:


> I am just a small guy,trying to build a business the old fashioned way. It's hvac companies that charge those kind of rates makes us look bad. I know certain larger companies have great expenses, but if they have to charge $100/lb to make a profit, they need to learn to spend their money more wise.
> 
> Call your local Goodman Supplier, and ask them to reccomend a good hvac person. Thats my advise.


 Goodman has onr of the worst repair records in every consumer report ever published, people who sell Goodman can't get the better brands.


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## beenthere

dmaxwell1 said:


> Goodman has onr of the worst repair records in every consumer report ever published, people who sell Goodman can't get the better brands.


Consumer report is just about the worst thing you can use to evaluate anything.

I know a lot of contractors that use Goodman as their low priced option.

They sell Trane, Carrier, York, Lennox, Rheem, etc as their main line.

So I have no idea why you would think that contractors that sell Goodman can't get another brand.
Is all your info this inaccurate?


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## bwalley

dmaxwell1 said:


> Goodman has onr of the worst repair records in every consumer report ever published, people who sell Goodman can't get the better brands.


I installed a 15 SEER Goodman Unit for a friend of mine, he wanted a variable speed AH, yet he didn't want to pay the American Standard price, so I sold him a Goodman unit, it is a good unit, I prefer American Standard, but they were quite a bit higher for their equipment.

In the past Goodman may not have been considered good equipment, but there is nothing wrong with it and if price and warranty are important to the client, there is nothing wrong with Goodman.


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## NickTech

beenthere said:


> You got that leak rate a little misquoted.
> 
> Its 35% annually for a comfort cooling system containing 50 or more pounds of operating charge.


it's actually 15% annual leak rate for comfort cooling, 35% for commercial or industrial process equipment containing more than 50lbs of refrig.


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## beenthere

NickTech said:


> it's actually 15% annual leak rate for comfort cooling, 35% for commercial or industrial process equipment containing more than 50lbs of refrig.


LOL.. Yes it is.

thanks for the correction.


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## NickTech

no sweat!!


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## flashheatingand

Commercial & industrial is allowed to let system have an annual leak rate @ 35% while everybody else is limited to 10%? That just aint right.


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## beenthere

Commercial refrigeration and inductrial process is 35%.
Commercial comfort cooling is 15%

Residential, has no requirement for repair.


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## DCHVAC

bwalley said:


> I installed a 15 SEER Goodman Unit for a friend of mine, he wanted a variable speed AH, yet he didn't want to pay the American Standard price, so I sold him a Goodman unit, it is a good unit, I prefer American Standard, but they were quite a bit higher for their equipment.
> 
> In the past Goodman may not have been considered good equipment, but there is nothing wrong with it and if price and warranty are important to the client, there is nothing wrong with Goodman.


Goodman has gotten better with their QC since married to Amana. Goodman WAS junk at one time but not any more IMHO.


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## flashheatingand

dmaxwell1 said:


> Goodman has onr of the worst repair records in every consumer report ever published, people who sell Goodman can't get the better brands.


I don't know if that was a jab on me or Goodman. There are many reasons for my choice to sell Goodman/Amana as the primary line, but not worth getting into detail now. As a Goodman dealer, I'll admit there are things about the product that could use some modifications as well.

I know we are all competing for the same customers. If you want to say your service is better than everyone else because you do X,Y, and Z that's fine. But to steer the customer away from Goodman due to the reasons stated above, well, that's just below the belt/ unprofessional. 

The reason I suggested calling the Goodman supplier was not because I think Goodman is the best as I think all brands are about the same when comparing apples to apples. Goodman sells to the small outfits. As a result, the supplier would give a reference to a good small outfit who likely will give top notch personal service as opposed to an outfit that treats their clients as if they are a number.

There are many big outfits that also give top service as well (for the record).


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## bwalley

I haven't installed very many Goodman units, I have seen them years ago and they were what we would call apartment units as they were small and relatively cheaply made and apartment complexes likd them because they were cheap.

The few units I have installed lately though I have been happy with and more importantly my clients have been very happy with.

One thing I liked about the Variable speed AH was it was a 3.5 ton system, but the AH section was the same for up to 5 ton, the only difference being the TXV and the condensing unit, so the client got a huge coil a Variable speed fan, and it does a great job, so far no callbacks.

The equipment is relatively in expensive when compared to American Standard.

I gave my client the choice between American Standard and Goodman, he chose Goodman based on price and features.

If a family member needed a new A/C, I would have no problem using a Goodman unit.


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## ambucon

good price bed leak you have problem


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## A.D. Const

Bearclawz said:


> *What are you talking about...illegal. As long as the unit is not leaking more than 50 pds a year a service tech is not under any obligation to find or fix a leak unless the home owner wants it done.*


I believe we are talking about a residential unit. "leaks should be repair whenever, possible" EPA. What do you do when you know a unit is leaking? I think you are beating a dead horse. This issue has been extensibly in this post. Guy did not get rip-off, but should correct the problem ASAP otherwise he will be spending all of his hard earn $$$$$ on that unit. This, also, has been said.


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## Electric_Light

flashheatingand said:


> $40.00-$80.00 per lb. of r-22? was that USD or Confederate money?:blink::laughing:


If his unit was missing 5 lbs, it wouldn't be working. The law requires refrigerant to be recovered and the removed refrigerant maybe reused on the same unit and if I recall correctly, other units on the premise owned by the same owner. Otherwise, it must be sent in for reclamation. 

Did he pump out your Freon, then recharged you for the Freon he put back in?


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## aircare

Goodman's is available to just about anyone thats why you have a high break down rate (poor instalation) If goodman was more concerned about their rep insted of pushing unitis out the door to ANYONE with money they would be better off. I put in thousands of goodmans, just about the same call back as any other brand. 1990's they were junk Janijunk to be exact.

Price of freon is what ever you want to charge if some one wants to question a price. they can go to refrigeration school, obtain a epa lic, spend the required time in the field & meet the qualifications to get a contractors Lic, open a account at the local wholesale supply store. Then he has a right to question the price. Them I would proceed to say... do the work yourself.


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## FrostysHeating

BACKWOODS said:


> You got a good deal. I have seen freon go for $40-80 per lb. Plus the service call charge. If he did use 5 lbs you have a heck of a leak . Your friend may be back soon.


Backwoods, 
I quite agree. Freon in Atlanta is between $40 and $80 a lb here as well. For 5 lbs it's a minimum of $200 plus the service call. If there is more than 1.5-2lbs missing, there is a decent leak and should be leak tested and repaired. 

Mr. Frosty


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## 21gun

My hvac guy *tried* to charge me 50 bucks tonight to come and top off my unit... took a pound or so of r-22 (and he put it in slow and liquid, not fumes... what ever that means) the inside coil was dirty so i cleaned that real quick and saved him from getting dirty... said and done... he wanted 50 bucks for an hour.... from 7-8:00 tonight... 
asked if 50 was ok with me... i said hell friggin no...
I know his wife wasn't feeling good...and he had just ate dinner and had to run...so i MADE him take 70 bucks. I know an extra 20 aint gonna buy no new shoes... but i know i like to get atleast a fiddy in my pocket at that hour... plus he has to drive 20 mins to get back home...his gas... etc...

i guess 200 sounds good... kept you cool for a while atleast...but that leak has got to be looked into. OZONE and all you know....seriously...that sounds a bit irresponsible to just blow and go... but i dont know the whole story...

Every one charges different. It's up to the customer... in every market... to do their homework...compare prices... ask questions...

I dont mark up material either... instead i charge what i think i need to cover the expenses/ overhead and keep a little money too. That dirty word "profit"..... we all need to make money... i am not ashamed of my prices, they're not high or low in my opinion.... but no one ever tries to haggle me down when i give them a bid. Suppose i could raise the price a small bit... But what if i dont get as many jobs then? I'll loose 200 a day for that job... instead of making an extra 20? I'll have to remember the post about paying yourself like you would an employee... I think i need a raise and a week off too!!!:w00t::clap::laughing: That's a good way of looking at things i like that.


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## gamebird

bwalley said:


> They will no longer manufacture equipment that will use R22 manufactured after Jan 1, R22 will still be manufactured and available.
> 
> How long has R12 been out of production?
> 
> I can still buy R12 and it isn't cheap but it is still affordable.


I'm talking about if you have a problem with an existing R-22 system. You can still buy replacement compressors, evaps, for R22 after Jan 1. The price per pound is similar to 410a but you do not need to change out any parts to use this refrigerant. It is also almost identical pressures and temp as 22.


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## Hvacpro

*ppl think hvac is free ...something for nothing*



BiggersJunior said:


> I had an HVAC tech come over tonight and he filled my unit with 5lbs of freon. He checked my 2 units to make sure they were both full. He was here for about an hour and charged me $200. Is this a fair price?
> 
> He said the cost of freon has risen dramatically over the past several months. How much do you guys charge for a similar service, or what price per lb do you charge? I look forward to your comments.


it should have been around 4-500 
a trip charge.
a service call fee
a epa charge
r-22 under 8-10 lbs should be at a higher rate smaller amount.
first hour and 1/2 for the other unit at least.

yeah, you ripped him off and you should be sending him and additional 200 dollars with your two unit home.

:clap:


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## beenthere

gamebird said:


> For after jan 1 when R-22 will be harder to come by and more expensive. Also then you will not have to switch to 410 like affordable 7 said.


So many confuse the end of production on new equipment to use R22, with the end of R22 production.

R22 will still be made.

There is no direct drop in for R22. You must remove all the old R22 refrigerant.
Virtually all the replacement gasses have glide. And many have capacity reductions when you use them.


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## bwalley

gamebird said:


> I'm talking about if you have a problem with an existing R-22 system. You can still buy replacement compressors, evaps, for R22 after Jan 1. The price per pound is similar to 410a but you do not need to change out any parts to use this refrigerant. It is also almost identical pressures and temp as 22.


Why not just use R22?


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## bwalley

Hvacpro said:


> it should have been around 4-500
> a trip charge.
> a service call fee
> *a epa charge*
> r-22 under 8-10 lbs should be at a higher rate smaller amount.
> first hour and 1/2 for the other unit at least.
> 
> yeah, you ripped him off and you should be sending him and additional 200 dollars with your two unit home.
> 
> :clap:


A trip charge + a service call???

What is an EPA charge, do you send it o the EPA or is it just an additional charge that you make people think is being tacked on by the government?


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## jeremy-lvhm

bwalley said:


> A trip charge + a service call???
> 
> What is an EPA charge, do you send it o the EPA or is it just an additional charge that you make people think is being tacked on by the government?


 
This is the same guy, mind you that tells me in another thread that the rest of us are doing customers WRONG by selling them matched systems.

But he has no problem ripping them a new one when it leaks. 

200 was cheap but to make up BS charges....well that just seems typical for this guy anyway so I guess we should all listen to him. :notworthy The rest of us pale in comparison to the pro.:thumbsup:


btw walley this isnt a dig at you....just so u know ;-)


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## hf05

Gamebird...the pressures for 410a and r-22 are most certaianly not almost identical in fact they are at minimum doubled ..big deal w/ a resi condensor


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## beenthere

Gamebird.

Are you thinking of R422D?


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## hf05

R422d........... how much per pound! you may be on to something here!:laughing:


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## beenthere

hf05 said:


> R422d........... how much per pound! you may be on to something here!:laughing:


Don't know how much it goes for, per pound.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...EAvUcKAzxCjdIeV4Q&sig2=NrRUAhI_FgVqRlSskbITlA


Its one of the many replacement gasses available to replace R22.

Not worthwhile to convert to any of the replacement gasses in my opinion.
But, lots of people/techs. Are reluctant to learn how to work with R410A.


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## Electric_Light

21gun said:


> Every one charges different. It's up to the customer... in every market... to do their homework...compare prices... ask questions...
> 
> I dont mark up material either... instead i charge what i think i need to cover the expenses/ overhead and keep a little money too. That dirty word "profit"..... we all need to make money... i am not ashamed of my prices, they're not high or low in my opinion.... but no one ever tries to haggle me down when i give them a bid.


I think a reasonable material markup is ok, but I don't think anything pisses off customers quite like parts markup up usury. It gives contractors and shops with a way of getting customers to authorize work, trap them and pull a quick one. It's really easy to rip customers off with overpriced parts and consumerable when they don't know much about the system being worked on. On the other hand, its harder to cheat them with hours when you started work at 8AM and you're out by noon, any customer would know the billable hour is four. 

You take your service van for oil leak and you get an estimate. They have your car torn down to pieces and give you a new change in estimate saying they've discovered its leaking at front and back crankshaft. They give you a new pricing with new gaskets, priced at $300 ea for $20 ea gaskets or have it put back together unfixed for tear-down and reassembly cost. Would that piss you off? 

If I called for a recharge estimate, and was told $250, then I was billed $350 and see that the estimate was based "up to one pound of Freon" and you added $100/lb because it took "2 lbs", I'm gonna be highly annoyed and I will ask you to see the Weights & Measures calibration inspection on your charge scale and if you don't have it, its technically makes you not legal to sell by weight.


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## beenthere

> If I called for a recharge estimate, and was told $250, then I was billed $350 and see that the estimate was based "up to one pound of Freon" and you added $100/lb because it took "2 lbs", I'm gonna be highly annoyed and I will ask you to see the Weights & Measures calibration inspection on your charge scale and if you don't have it, its technically makes you not legal to sell by weight.


If you called and got an answer for how much to gas N go. They would have told you 250 for the trip and up to 1 pound. And 100 bucks for each pound after.

Some places charge more then 100 per pound.


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## Electric_Light

beenthere said:


> If you called and got an answer for how much to gas N go. They would have told you 250 for the trip and up to 1 pound. And 100 bucks for each pound after.
> 
> Some places charge more then 100 per pound.


That's as absurd as charging $5 a wood screw. 
Those gouging tech better have NTEP scale that's registered with Weights and Measures too


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## beenthere

Electric_Light said:


> That's as absurd as charging $5 a wood screw.
> Those gouging tech better have NTEP scale that's registered with Weights and Measures too


Thats just your opinion on the price. 

And techs don't determine the price to charge for a pound of refrigerant.
The company they work for does.

The price for a pound of refrigerant is not determined by what the wholesale price of it is. Nobody in their right mind bases their price on that.


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## flashheatingand

I don't know... How can you say the price/lb is not determined by the wholesale cost? The trip charge/service call is supposed to account for a major portion of the insurance, gas bill...etc. The labor is supposed to account for the overhead as well. The parts might help with the expenses also. But, you have to base the cost of the parts on the wholesale cost. In this day and age with the internet and all, you have to be careful with how much you charge on parts because the customer can easily find out what our cost is. Then comes the explaining thing which can be hard to do.

I never thought about the scale calibration thing (which has never been brought up here or locally). If one is going to charge $100.00/lb of refrigerant, it better be certified for accuracy, and should be narrowed to the 16th.... The cost for the certification would need to be included in the price to the end user as well.


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## beenthere

So you buy a skid of R22.

Do you base your price to sell it on what you paid for that skid. or do you base it on what it will cost you to replace it down the road?

Do you include the interest that you would have made on that money over the X years it takes you to use that skid, if it was in the bank, and you only bought 2 or 3 jugs of R22.

If you only buy one or 2 jugs at a time. Do you include the time that you spent buying those jugs. Or do you figure that time as just overhead. And hope you included enough overhead in your labor charge.

If you buy a jug at 6 bucks a pound, and sell it for 12 bucks a pound. Do you think your making 6 bucks a pound.

Not if you have to pay 8 bucks a pound to replace it. You didn't.

Price should be based on estimated replacement cost. How long it takes for you to sell that jug, or skid.

Refrigerant gases are a commodity. Just like gasoline.

You don't think that gas station selling gas for $2.95 a gallon, actually only paid $2.799 a gallon for it, and making is making $954.00 on that 6,000 gallons a week they sell, do you. More like they pay $1.75 for it. To make $954.00.

People can see a price on the internet. And question you about your price.
Just remind them, that you don't sell 1,000 of that item a year, let alone a week like that internet site does. And if next time they need a part. And want to order it over the internet. You will gladly install it for them when they get it. And all they have to do, is pay you for another trip charge, and your normal charge for installing it. And if it fails within 12 months. they are the ones that need to get the warranty replacement part. And pay you to reinstall the new part.


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## beenthere

Re certifying a scale doesn't cost much. But, anyone that thinks that the scale is accurate in the field. is fooling themselves.

Moving your gauges while your adding gas to a system can and does change/throw off the weight reading of a scale in the field. 

If the scale isn't set level, its reading is not accurate(to within cert specs).


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## DuMass

As far as I can tell, at least here in my area, unless you are dispensing the individual product for direct sale to the public, then the scale doesn’t have to be certified by the state or local municipality.
In this case, the refrigerant is being both weighed and installed as part of the service, not as an individual component, so it would be considered an ordinary material that can be sold at any price and volume desired, even though it appears as a separate line item on the invoice.

I think maybe the right thing to do would though be to use the term *approximate* on all invoices, as in “recharge system with *approximately* 4.5Lb R22”. Then that simply indicates an amount for reference purposes as opposed to a specific quantity.
At least you can take solace in the fact that all scales and refrigerant meters we use have a label that indicates they are certified and traceable to NIST standards. :thumbsup:


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## Electric_Light

We know its common practice to charge more than purchasing cost. 

When we go to restaurant, we don't always ask the price of everything. Let's say you order a soda at your average bar/restaurant without specifically getting a quote.

You find an itemized bill for $50.00 for a glass of soda on your receipt. 

1.) Are you going to complain? I would. 
2.) Would you ever go back? I wouldn't. 




flashheatingand said:


> But, you have to base the cost of the parts on the wholesale cost. In this day and age with the internet and all, you have to be careful with how much you charge on parts because the customer can easily find out what our cost is. Then comes the explaining thing which can be hard to do.


"We have to keep parts in stock, so they're available for repair immediately and there is a markup. The parts may cost pretty close when you order on the internet delivered with UPS Next Day Air. "



DuMass said:


> As far as I can tell, at least here in my area, unless you are dispensing the individual product for direct sale to the public, then the scale doesn’t have to be certified by the state or local municipality.



I read the rule for my local area and here, all scales used commercially must be certified and licensed, and only N.T.E.P type can be certified. Things like animal weighing scale, rail car and truck scales require certification as well. I believe that type of scale employs a calibration switch that can be sealed by the inspector, so the user can't alter the calibration without voiding the certification.


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## beenthere

> We know its common practice to charge more than purchasing cost.
> 
> When we go to restaurant, we don't always ask the price of everything. Let's say you order a soda at your average bar/restaurant without specifically getting a quote.
> 
> You find an itemized bill for $50.00 for a glass of soda on your receipt.
> 
> 1.) Are you going to complain? I would.
> 2.) Would you ever go back? I wouldn't.


Years ago(70's, 80's, 90's). I was at more then just 1, $100.00 dollar a plate restaurant. The soda at those places wasn't 50 bucks. So bad analogy.

The food wasn't really that much better then a regular restaurant. But, I knew it was an expensive restaurant before I went there. Still had sticker shock when I looked at the menu. Didn't bother asking them to explain the reason for the prices. Just ordered what I wanted. Just enjoyed the company I was with, and the food.

And yes, I would go there again.


PS: In the 90's, we got even less food for that 100 bucks.


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## beenthere

pip_seeker said:


> Sure they do... they make R410a thru their SUVA brand along with a laundry list of other refrigerants. I didn't say they invented it or first to formulate it.
> 
> They are a big producer of R22... and thus wise have a big influence over the price of it. No one (in their right mind) is going to build a factory to make R22 freon.
> 
> The R22 price jump has them directly in the middle of it.
> 
> Any producer of R410a has R&D dollars invested in it... don't be silly.
> 
> It takes money to convert a factory to produce something else... I thought that was obvious I guess not?


Not really much of a conversion process to switch over to making r410A. 

DuPont like all the other manufacturers of refrigerants that make r410A pay Honeywell for a license to make it. And were given the formula to make it. Its all made the same. They use the same method to make it as everyone else. So there is no R&D involved.

R22 hasn't jumped in price everywhere. many areas in the USA are still less then 200 bucks for a 30 pounder of R22.


----------



## pip_seeker

beenthere said:


> Not really much of a conversion process to switch over to making r410A.
> 
> 
> 
> R22 hasn't jumped in price everywhere. many areas in the USA are still less then 200 bucks for a 30 pounder of R22.



Yeah just like switching over from manufacturing R22 equipment to R410a lol. :laughing:

Talk is cheap... We can go around and around who invented the wheel and who came along and invented the rubber tire and what the costs were involved in conversion along the way. 

Fact of the matter is you nor I know what the conversion costs are. You are only speculating but I can assure you there's more to it than just flipping a switch. There are costs and that was my whole point.

Speculating over what Dupont pays someone to make their brand of R410a is another pointless speculation no one could prove otherwise. So really what is your point?... because it just sounds like you are pissing in the wind to me. 

Arguing about what price is here vs there is about like comparing gas prices in this state vs another. But you can be certain in one thing: R22 PRICE IS GOING UP.

Which I know by this conversation we are having has flown right over your head.


----------



## beenthere

pip_seeker said:


> Yeah just like switching over from manufacturing R22 equipment to R410a lol. :laughing:
> 
> Switching production over from one refrigerant to another, is not considered R&D.
> 
> Talk is cheap... We can go around and around who invented the wheel and who came along and invented the rubber tire and what the costs were involved in conversion along the way.
> 
> They have no more cost then National Refrigerant does.
> 
> Fact of the matter is you nor I know what the conversion costs are. You are only speculating but I can assure you there's more to it than just flipping a switch. There are costs and that was my whole point.
> 
> Conversion cost no more or no less then it did the other Refrigerant manufacturers. But you implied it was all DuPonts doings, and money, so they need to raise the price. Which is not true.
> 
> Speculating over what Dupont pays someone to make their brand of R410a is another pointless speculation no one could prove otherwise. So really what is your point?... because it just sounds like you are pissing in the wind to me.
> 
> No, just trying to stop you from spreading a myth/rumor.
> 
> Arguing about what price is here vs there is about like comparing gas prices in this state vs another. But you can be certain in one thing: R22 PRICE IS GOING UP.
> 
> Price of R22 was going to go up no matter what. Since demand hasn't dropped off as expected. Distributors in some areas are panicking and raising prices well in advance of any shortage that may occur in the short run.
> 
> Which I know by this conversation we are having has flown right over your head.


Many conversations based on unfounded myth or speculation go over my head.


----------



## pip_seeker

It sounds like you are just looking for an argument to argue about. 

When you are saying what I said was "implied"... which means you're nit picking just to be nit picking. 

If Dupont or any manufacturer of Refrigerants have a plant. There is a certain amount of a budget set aside for R&D. So to say they had no R&D of any amount looking for a suitable replacement for FREON which is / was their brand is a little misguided on your part.

Just because they didn't find the end result conconction of chemicals doesn't mean they didn't spend R&D dollars looking for one... but yet you want to dismiss this.

I'm not looking to be politically correct... I was implying there are costs associated with getting a plant up to production capacity. If you want to call them conversion costs go ahead and cry about it. 

R&D was a simple term to use that I thought most people would grasp but you're more worried about being politically correct... woo hoo for you. 

Here's your cookie...










Hopefully you won't cry over the bite out of it.... but it's your party go for it. :laughing:


----------



## beenthere

R&D and conversion cost are not the same. 

Nor are property taxes and income taxes the same.

All of the manufacturers had to do the same conversions that DuPont did.

DuPont has been making double and Trinary refrigerants for a long time before R410A came out. The same as ALL other manufacturers of refrigerants.

Trying to claim DuPont has something to do with the higher cost of R22 is just repeating an urban legend/myth. They can't make the other manufacturers charge more for their r22.


----------



## Dr Heat

Was just informed that a 30 will be at 300 this spring not sure its true but hay. The bulk of the r22 cost is taxes and Gov. control.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor

I have a bottle 3/4 full from last summer. How long will it still be good for sitting in the barn?


----------



## Doc Holliday

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I have a bottle 3/4 full from last summer. How long will it still be good for sitting in the barn?


Until the cows come home! 

Get it? Barn, cows? <snicker> :clap:

Thank you, thank you very much.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor

Doc Holliday said:


> Until the cows come home!
> 
> Get it? Barn, cows? <snicker> :clap:
> 
> Thank you, thank you very much.


Will you be here all night? :laughing: 

So does it go bad?


----------



## DuMass

So, I guess this means the price of the 25-lb. bottles of R414B sitting in the basement will be topping the $300.00 mark in the near future. I probably use about a duck farts worth of it a year, so by the time I’m ready to retire I should still have plenty left and hopefully it will be worth as much as gold by then.


----------



## Doc Holliday

Not that I'm aware of, no. You may want to shake the can around a bit to allow the oil to mix as it will most likley settle in the bottom, seperate, but as far as I know chlorodifluoromethane/hydrochlouroflourocarbon-22 will last forever if in a container and properly stored.


----------



## beenthere

Doc Holliday said:


> Not that I'm aware of, no. You may want to shake the can around a bit to allow the oil to mix as it will most likley settle in the bottom, seperate, but as far as I know chlorodifluoromethane/hydrochlouroflourocarbon-22 will last forever if in a container and properly stored.


No oil in it.


----------



## Doc Holliday

than no need to shake it.


----------



## plummen

BiggersJunior said:


> My system is only about 4 years old. He said he would fill it for now and come back in about 2 weeks and recheck it. Then we can determine where it's leaking and fix the problem. The systems are under warranty for 10 years. He didn't originally install them and I don't really care to deal with the guy that did. Any more suggestions? Thanks for your input.


Why does he have to wait 2 wks to come back and check for the leak?
He should have done that before recharging the equipment


----------



## greenleafmech

plummen said:


> Why does he have to wait 2 wks to come back and check for the leak?
> He should have done that before recharging the equipment


Not justifiable at all, but only due to how busy the tech's day was. 

We've already taken a step further with our customers to warn them the need to repair a leaking system, instead of fill and go. Here's the article in our blog: http://www.greenleafheatingandcooling.com/freon-price-increase/


----------



## vger13

right now r-22 is around $260.00 for 30lbs so at $10.00 a pound.. a profit of over a dollar a pound is made..of course other overhead does have to be considered but i dont know how anyone charging over $15.00-$20.00 a pound can sleep at night.... jeez when you charge a service call you are covering your time and fuel


----------



## beenthere

vger13 said:


> right now r-22 is around $260.00 for 30lbs so at $10.00 a pound.. a profit of over a dollar a pound is made..of course other overhead does have to be considered but i dont know how anyone charging over $15.00-$20.00 a pound can sleep at night.... jeez when you charge a service call you are covering your time and fuel



If I sold a thousand pounds a week. A dollar a pound NP would be ok.

Your looking at mark up the wrong way.


----------



## greenleafmech

vger13 said:


> right now r-22 is around $260.00 for 30lbs so at $10.00 a pound.. a profit of over a dollar a pound is made..of course other overhead does have to be considered but i dont know how anyone charging over $15.00-$20.00 a pound can sleep at night.... jeez when you charge a service call you are covering your time and fuel


Get back to us in 2 years...


----------



## vger13

BEENTHERE-dont think i am did you even read the whole post that you copied and pasted? i said even at $10 a pound you can make a dollar profit especially with the outrageous service call fees most charge..AND i also said (basically)no one should have to charge more than $15-$20 a pound.more than a 100 percent mark up on a product that you are charging by the hour to install,you must have some very expensive taste you need to pay for.I dont know where you have "been" but i have been doing hvac for over thirty years..on the clock,for myself,and for large hvac company's..i know how most work


----------



## vger13

greenleafmech-why?
i have been in hvac field over thirty years..two years from now has absolutely nothing to do with the price of eggs right now
point?


----------



## TimberlineMD

Just paid $325 a jug and was told it went for $350 the week before and I was getting a deal.


----------



## plummen

vger13 said:


> as i said must have a lot of expensive toys...and as for the other companies most try to run it like you ..rakem over the coals ..and that is why most are not still around 20 years later people catch on, more today than ever people look around and get informed and realize that someone who charges them $125 for a $20 cap is a crook anyway you stack it. i give people a good job at a fair price and make enough money to cover my expense and have some left over..but i am not trying to have a yard full of trucks,boats,quads,jet skis,plasmas in every room either.that is the problem in this country now


We must be behind the curve around here then,Im still shocked at the prices people are willing to pay the bigger shops around here without thinking twice about it.
People were charging $20.00 a lb for freon around here close to 20 yrs ago back when you could still buy it for $35 a jug,So Ive got no problem with somebody charging $25.00 a lb for it now that prices are going through the roof for it on our end.


----------



## plummen

vger13 said:


> dont need a bunch of patches on a jacket..that what you get from the classes....guess in your mind you can justify passing that expense on to your customers...i dont know maybe some people have a hard time remembering things or the need some official looking patches and papers but things have not changed that much in thirty years ..we still use the same electricity we were using then r-22 will be phased out ..but still using same r-22 i was thirty years ago and it still reacts the same way..so you need to tell this to your customers this to justify..not me..i dont need a class every quarter to keep up


Id say the biggest single reason for everybody having to take all these new classes besides technology changes is all the new rules being dumped on us by city/state/feds ,The city wants us all to have journeyman licenses in omaha now just to be able to walk into a supply house and buy a damn thermostat now no matter how many years youve been in the trade.
You need to have a lead hazard class now in case you bump a wall with a screw driver and chip some paint off.
I had to pay for a septic tank installers license a while back even though Ive got several master plumbers licenses already,the licensing process consisted of me checking some boxes on a piece of paper and giving the dept of enviromental quality a check for $300.00 and going right back to doing the same job Ive been doing the same way Ive done it for years!
So if you want to know why it costs so much to get things done to a  politician


----------



## Dr Heat

plummen said:


> We must be behind the curve around here then,Im still shocked at the prices people are willing to pay the bigger shops around here without thinking twice about it.
> People were charging $20.00 a lb for freon around here close to 20 yrs ago back when you could still buy it for $35 a jug,So Ive got no problem with somebody charging $25.00 a lb for it now that prices are going through the roof for it on our end.


 241 posts are you kidding me the op didn't know what he was opening up


----------



## plummen

beenthere said:


> LOL... Don't wear any patches, except for my name patch.
> 
> 30 years ago we didn't VS ECM blowers. Or inverter driven compressors. Or network capable thermostats. Or Modulating furnaces and gas boilers(ok, actually did have modulating furnaces and boilers, but only in commercial applications). Didn't have all the different digital thermostats, just the old mercury ones, which aren't allowed today.
> 
> 30 years ago central A/C still wasn't standard on new houses.
> 
> 
> And 30 years ago has nothing to do with today's prices or technologies.
> 
> You may live in the past as much as you want. The rest of us will live in todays world.


Hell im stuck in the past as much as anybody,even I can understand that! :laughing:


----------



## plummen

vger13 said:


> greenleafmech-no i dont think i know everything in all the time i have doing hvac i learn something new every summer..and i have had problems that i went to the "real"service techs with and none had a clue..in business for there self's 30-40 years,fresh out of tech school ..none could give me answers but with the time i have had with me hands in them i solved the problem..and i know prices are different all over..the point i guess i am trying to make if all trades gave a little fairer pricing we would be a lot better of..lets just say for example that you know nothing about plumbing(i feel sure you do) and needed a toilet replaced,the plumber charges you over $500 to replace,he is only there an hour and you see it was a very easy job and you find out the toilet only cost $130..are you going to feel cheated..i would hope so..if you dont work on your own vehicles if you take it to the dealership do you feel like you got your moneys worth..if you do you are one of few
> see my point


Must be a goverment toilet! :laughing:


----------



## beenthere

plummen said:


> Must be a goverment toilet! :laughing:



It is. It only has a 1.6 gallon tank. :laughing:


----------



## plummen

Dont forget to buy a $500.00 plunger to go with it! :laughing:


----------



## flashheatingand

This whole debate is the same song, different singers that was performed two years ago.
Granted we all have our expenses. But today, versus twenty something years ago, a person can readily go on the internet to find out the actual cost of an item, so, it's more necessary than ever to be tight with your numbers, because, if the customer suspects an outrageous markup, they will check it out, and can write a damning review.

Do you guys see a time where there will be a return for deposit charge on new refrigerant tanks. Or, feasibly ten pound jugs? With the cost of gas skyrocketing, I am thinking about converting our Taurus station wagon as a work rig.


----------



## plummen

Dr Heat said:


> 241 posts are you kidding me the op didn't know what he was opening up


Yeah its that cabin fever going around! :laughing:


----------



## beenthere

flashheatingand said:


> This whole debate is the same song, different singers that was performed two years ago.
> Granted we all have our expenses. But today, versus twenty something years ago, a person can readily go on the internet to find out the actual cost of an item, so, it's more necessary than ever to be tight with your numbers, because, if the customer suspects an outrageous markup, they will check it out, and can write a damning review.
> 
> Do you guys see a time where there will be a return for deposit charge on new refrigerant tanks. Or, feasibly ten pound jugs? With the cost of gas skyrocketing, I am thinking about converting our Taurus station wagon as a work rig.


On oil burners.

I charge nearly 300 bucks to come out and diagnose that the nozzle is bad, and then replace it. Part of that charge includes me setting it up to burn properly, or make sure it running proper. So I do use my CA on those calls. And those sensors aren't cheap. over 400 bucks a year for them, and then of course the dang batteries it eats. heck, the printer paper isn't all that cheap, but the batteries for the year cost more.


Oh, I also warranty the nozzle for a year(365 days).


----------



## plummen

flashheatingand said:


> This whole debate is the same song, different singers that was performed two years ago.
> Granted we all have our expenses. But today, versus twenty something years ago, a person can readily go on the internet to find out the actual cost of an item, so, it's more necessary than ever to be tight with your numbers, because, if the customer suspects an outrageous markup, they will check it out, and can write a damning review.
> 
> Do you guys see a time where there will be a return for deposit charge on new refrigerant tanks. Or, feasibly ten pound jugs? With the cost of gas skyrocketing, I am thinking about converting our Taurus station wagon as a work rig.


Now that brings back some memories,I can still remember doing side jobs at night out of a staion wagon before I could afford my 1st service van. :laughing:
I remember parking that station wagon in front of the shop I was working for and the owner telling me I had more stuff packed in that wagon than I carried in the service van I drove for him at the time! :laughing:


----------



## Dr Heat

flashheatingand said:


> This whole debate is the same song, different singers that was performed two years ago.
> Granted we all have our expenses. But today, versus twenty something years ago, a person can readily go on the internet to find out the actual cost of an item, so, it's more necessary than ever to be tight with your numbers, because, if the customer suspects an outrageous markup, they will check it out, and can write a damning review.
> 
> Do you guys see a time where there will be a return for deposit charge on new refrigerant tanks. Or, feasibly ten pound jugs? With the cost of gas skyrocketing, I am thinking about converting our Taurus station wagon as a work rig.


I do not think I am unreasonable price wise. I am not making a big salary but I do feel I deserve the boat the wave runner a nice vacation a house a $500 toilet maybe a few dates out with the wife. If not me who? As far as worrying about the Internet if someone does question my price fine I make a small speech about the cost of insurance and what not then if I loose them fine. I am not trying to build my business on the DIY customer anyway.

The thing is I have run service calls out of my Ford Focus for years. Mostly on the commercial side though.


----------



## flashheatingand

Dr Heat said:


> I do not think I am unreasonable price wise. I am not making a big salary but I do feel I deserve the boat the wave runner a nice vacation a house a $500 toilet maybe a few dates out with the wife. If not me who? As far as worrying about the Internet if someone does question my price fine I make a small speech about the cost of insurance and what not then if I loose them fine. I am not trying to build my business on the DIY customer anyway.
> 
> The thing is I have run service calls out of my Ford Focus for years. Mostly on the commercial side though.


I hear you about a few nice dates and a vacation. It does kill me to go on a service call for a tennant who is out of work, been out of work for a while, and see them swigging a few beers, while the huge flat screen tv is blaring Judge Joe Brown (although, I have been know to eavesdrop on the case at hand) or the guys are playing some war game and the house smells like Aunt Mary Jane.


----------



## flashheatingand

beenthere said:


> On oil burners.
> 
> I charge nearly 300 bucks to come out and diagnose that the nozzle is bad, and then replace it. Part of that charge includes me setting it up to burn properly, or make sure it running proper. So I do use my CA on those calls. And those sensors aren't cheap. over 400 bucks a year for them, and then of course the dang batteries it eats. heck, the printer paper isn't all that cheap, but the batteries for the year cost more.
> 
> 
> Oh, I also warranty the nozzle for a year(365 days).


Oil burners are quickly going extinct here. There are a few old school guys, but they too are replacing versus repair


----------



## flashheatingand

B.T. what happened to the old school tester with the container of Hawaiian Punch and the smoke test kit?


----------



## Doc Holliday

Dr Heat said:


> The thing is I have run service calls out of my Ford Focus for years. Mostly on the commercial side though.


Years ago I worked out of my Cutlass Sierra. That sucked something fierce, hauling tools and ladders...

check your pm's, Dr.


----------



## greenleafmech

That guy that just signed up to stir this thread up, is a perfect example of why "businessmen" can't grow working out of their 85' minivan. I think that it should be mandatory for a future contracting business owner to at least learn how to charge before getting their license. It would help a whole trade, and not bring others down, due to their ignorance or lack of knowledge on this topic.


----------



## beenthere

flashheatingand said:


> B.T. what happened to the old school tester with the container of Hawaiian Punch and the smoke test kit?


There still around, and still made. I haven't used one myself in 8 years.


----------



## vger13

flashheatingand said:


> This whole debate is the same song, different singers that was performed two years ago.
> Granted we all have our expenses. But today, versus twenty something years ago, a person can readily go on the internet to find out the actual cost of an item, so, it's more necessary than ever to be tight with your numbers, because, if the customer suspects an outrageous markup, they will check it out, and can write a damning review.
> 
> Do you guys see a time where there will be a return for deposit charge on new refrigerant tanks. Or, feasibly ten pound jugs? With the cost of gas skyrocketing, I am thinking about converting our Taurus station wagon as a work rig.


:clap:

this is the point i was trying to make....but it still falls on deaf ears


----------



## vger13

beenthere said:


> LOL... Don't wear any patches, except for my name patch.
> 
> 30 years ago we didn't VS ECM blowers. Or inverter driven compressors. Or network capable thermostats. Or Modulating furnaces and gas boilers(ok, actually did have modulating furnaces and boilers, but only in commercial applications). Didn't have all the different digital thermostats, just the old mercury ones, which aren't allowed today.
> 
> 30 years ago central A/C still wasn't standard on new houses.
> 
> 
> And 30 years ago has nothing to do with today's prices or technologies.
> 
> You may live in the past as much as you want. The rest of us will live in todays world.


not sure what part of the woods you were in thirty years ago (1982 if you were not sure) but i was servicing CENTRAL straight air systems in apartment communities all over eastern n.c,and these were not new units most were around ten years old.the first commercial unit i serviced was a 12ton carrier rooftop unit manufactured i 1972 (40 years old) and no i have done very little commercial work but i have done plenty of multi/single family rough in,trim out and service-hvac and plumbing


----------



## vger13

and what it come down to is 9 out of ten times i will go head to head with any service tech on any brand,straight air or heat pump 1-5 tons i will make to repair just as quick or quicker and for a much better price to the consumer..


----------



## Dr Heat

vger13 said:


> not sure what part of the woods you were in thirty years ago (1982 if you were not sure) but i was servicing CENTRAL straight air systems in apartment communities all over eastern n.c,and these were not new units most were around ten years old.the first commercial unit i serviced was a 12ton carrier rooftop unit manufactured i 1972 (40 years old) and no i have done very little commercial work but i have done plenty of multi/single family rough in,trim out and service-hvac and plumbing


If you read the post He said new homes. Perhaps he should have said new single family homes. Multi unit and commercial got ac long before single family fact is AC was not stained on new homes till 2000 or so.

His point was this is an industry that is changing all the time. To stay on top and do right by your customers you need to always be learning. A few more examples of the changes in the residential arm of HVAC
New to rez.
Geo
condensing boilers
vav
vvt
hrv
erv
heppa
410A
PVC
Multi Position furnaces
supper seal
R11 flush (we used to use real R11)
malco (well to my area)

Now these were around but rarely used in the 70s
Vacuum Pumps
Micron Gages
txvs
ultra sonic leak detection
brazing 
Nitrogen
Combustion Analyzers
Reclaimers


Some things that have gone away (I am sure some are still around)

dual transformer systems
bi metal (amaritherm) dampers
Ammonia ( I took out the last system I worked on last sumer)
500
502
12
brine
drinking on the job
smoking in customers homes
corded drills
Reservoir humidifiers

The point is you can thrive in this industry flying by the seat of your pants. Is that good for your customer? I instead (and most tecs.) spend thousands of dollars a year to have the best tools latest education and a plethora of available parts at the ready to meet my customers needs.

I consider my self a good tec and understand a good customer is willing to pay a premium for great care. 

I find it ironic that you use as an example the cost of fixing your own car to the cost of a dealership. Which are you the the factory certified dealer or the joey lunch box diy I can fix it with gum good buddy. I assume you are the former and you deserve to get paid like it.


----------



## vger13

jeez i guess n.c must have been on the forefront in the industry because i was building homes 1980-85 and i can assure you they all had central a/c


----------



## vger13

Quote:
Originally Posted by *flashheatingand*  
_This whole debate is the same song, different singers that was performed two years ago.
Granted we all have our expenses. But today, versus twenty something years ago, a person can readily go on the internet to find out the actual cost of an item, so, it's more necessary than ever to be tight with your numbers, because, if the customer suspects an outrageous markup, they will check it out, and can write a damning review.

Do you guys see a time where there will be a return for deposit charge on new refrigerant tanks. Or, feasibly ten pound jugs? With the cost of gas skyrocketing, I am thinking about converting our Taurus station wagon as a work rig._

On oil burners.

I charge nearly 300 bucks to come out and diagnose that the nozzle is bad, and then replace it. Part of that charge includes me setting it up to burn properly, or make sure it running proper. So I do use my CA on those calls. And those sensors aren't cheap. over 400 bucks a year for them, and then of course the dang batteries it eats. heck, the printer paper isn't all that cheap, but the batteries for the year cost more.


Oh, I also warranty the nozzle for a year(365 days). 

where in that statement did he say anything about an oil burner?


----------



## beenthere

vger13 said:


> jeez i guess n.c must have been on the forefront in the industry because i was building homes 1980-85 and i can assure you they all had central a/c


There are still houses built today that don't have central A/C.

Not all areas get as hot in the summer as some of the southern states. So central A/C was not a standard on many new homes in the early 80's nor in the 70's in my area.

And I was installing(helping to install) central A/c in homes in the 70's. But it was only 1 out of maybe 20 that got it.


----------



## beenthere

vger13 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flashheatingand*
> _This whole debate is the same song, different singers that was performed two years ago.
> Granted we all have our expenses. But today, versus twenty something years ago, a person can readily go on the internet to find out the actual cost of an item, so, it's more necessary than ever to be tight with your numbers, because, if the customer suspects an outrageous markup, they will check it out, and can write a damning review.
> 
> Do you guys see a time where there will be a return for deposit charge on new refrigerant tanks. Or, feasibly ten pound jugs? With the cost of gas skyrocketing, I am thinking about converting our Taurus station wagon as a work rig._
> 
> On oil burners.
> 
> I charge nearly 300 bucks to come out and diagnose that the nozzle is bad, and then replace it. Part of that charge includes me setting it up to burn properly, or make sure it running proper. So I do use my CA on those calls. And those sensors aren't cheap. over 400 bucks a year for them, and then of course the dang batteries it eats. heck, the printer paper isn't all that cheap, but the batteries for the year cost more.
> 
> 
> Oh, I also warranty the nozzle for a year(365 days).
> 
> where in that statement did he say anything about an oil burner?



That was the answer to his question about people being able to look up the part price on the internet.

Lets face it, an oil nozzle doesn't cost much and anybody can buy them over the internet. But people still pay me my price. The internet is not my competition. Cause they can't get fast service and repair over the internet.


Oh, and the guy down the street only charging 50 bucks to come out and change out a nozzle, isn't my competition either.


----------



## beenthere

vger13 said:


> :clap:
> 
> this is the point i was trying to make....but it still falls on deaf ears


Ahhh, your trying to latch on to Flash's coat tail.


----------



## vger13

beenthere said:


> That was the answer to his question about people being able to look up the part price on the internet.
> 
> Lets face it, an oil nozzle doesn't cost much and anybody can buy them over the internet. But people still pay me my price. The internet is not my competition. Cause they can't get fast service and repair over the internet.
> 
> 
> Oh, and the guy down the street only charging 50 bucks to come out and change out a nozzle, isn't my competition either.


pay better attention:blink:he never ask a question about people being able to look up a part on the internet..it was a statement and a fact..the question was ..a return deposit on tanks:laughing:


----------



## vger13

beenthere said:


> That was the answer to his question about people being able to look up the part price on the internet.
> 
> Lets face it, an oil nozzle doesn't cost much and anybody can buy them over the internet. But people still pay me my price. The internet is not my competition. Cause they can't get fast service and repair over the internet.
> 
> 
> Oh, and the guy down the street only charging 50 bucks to come out and change out a nozzle, isn't my competition either.


and you are right the guy down the street is not your competition because for $50 he has already beenthere and and gone and you never even knew you lost the job and the extra $450 you charge:laughing:


----------



## vger13

beenthere said:


> There are still houses built today that don't have central A/C.
> 
> Not all areas get as hot in the summer as some of the southern states. So central A/C was not a standard on many new homes in the early 80's nor in the 70's in my area.
> 
> And I was installing(helping to install) central A/c in homes in the 70's. But it was only 1 out of maybe 20 that got it.


and i see now how you get your customers classic bait and switch because every time i have a ligament answer you come back with well...i didnt mean the south...well i was not talking about multi family
and you seem evasive about your location..i guess with good reason if i was robbing people i would not want them to know my loco either 
i can say with pride i have worked in wake,johnson,franklon,nash county n.c over the past thirty years(and yes thirty years experience not living thirty years ago) and every one i have ever worked with,for,around will tell anyone i give a first rate job at a reasonable price


----------



## beenthere

vger13 said:


> and you are right the guy down the street is not your competition because for $50 he has already beenthere and and gone and you never even knew you lost the job and the extra $450 you charge:laughing:



Yep, he was there, wasn't able to fix it right, just put on parts and hoped he put on the right parts. And I got paid more to correct what he screwed up, and then paid to fix the real problem.

A lot of those 50 bucks an hour guys claim they can fix anything. But they're really just parts changers. And all they do is keep throwing parts on, until it either works, or they sell them a new system. or the customer wises up and calls someone that knows what their doing.


----------



## beenthere

vger13 said:


> and i see now how you get your customers classic bait and switch because every time i have a ligament answer you come back with well...i didnt mean the south...well i was not talking about multi family
> and you seem evasive about your location..i guess with good reason if i was robbing people i would not want them to know my loco either
> i can say with pride i have worked in wake,johnson,franklon,nash county n.c over the past thirty years(and yes thirty years experience not living thirty years ago) and every one i have ever worked with,for,around will tell anyone i give a first rate job at a reasonable price


I'm in PA.

And I don't assume that the rest of the world is the same as here. Like you seem to assume that every where else is the same as your area.

I've also worked in MD, Del, and NY. Skated the border of NJ a couple of times too.

Haven seen you have a legitimate answer yet. Just your opinion.


----------



## vger13

beenthere said:


> Yep, he was there, wasn't able to fix it right, just put on parts and hoped he put on the right parts. And I got paid more to correct what he screwed up, and then paid to fix the real problem.
> 
> A lot of those 50 bucks an hour guys claim they can fix anything. But they're really just parts changers. And all they do is keep throwing parts on, until it either works, or they sell them a new system. or the customer wises up and calls someone that knows what their doing.


when you are right i say it.. you are right
i have work with more than my share of parts changers matter fact i have worked with so many i thought i originated the term "parts changer"
i was in the back of a guys van once and every box in there had written "used but good" on it


----------



## beenthere

vger13 said:


> pay better attention:blink:he never ask a question about people being able to look up a part on the internet..it was a statement and a fact..the question was ..a return deposit on tanks:laughing:


That was still the answer. Yes, you can answer a statement.

Doesn't matter if people can look up a price. Charge what you need, and want.

Laugh if you want, I didn't see you answer.


----------



## vger13

beenthere said:


> That was still the answer. Yes, you can answer a statement.
> 
> Doesn't matter if people can look up a price. Charge what you need, and want.
> 
> Laugh if you want, I didn't see you answer.


was not trying too:no:


----------



## vger13

beenthere said:


> That was still the answer. Yes, you can answer a statement.
> 
> Doesn't matter if people can look up a price. Charge what you need, and want.
> 
> Laugh if you want, I didn't see you answer.


but at this point i will since you will not
yes i do see return deposit coming in the northern states that already have deposits on plastics,aluminum and others and yes a 10-15lb jug would be a good idea in my opinion


----------



## beenthere

Flash knows what kind of answers to expect from me, we had discussions here before. I have a lot of respect for him, and his opinions.


----------



## beenthere

vger13 said:


> but at this point i will since you will not
> yes i do see return deposit coming in the northern states that already have deposits on plastics,aluminum and others and yes a 10-15lb jug would be a good idea in my opinion


We don't have deposits on plastics, glass bottles, aluminum or other cans here.

The EPA would need to change its regs, to permit 10 and 15 pound jugs. 
They would also be higher priced per pound. So it would cost more to use.

Deposit on non reusable jugs, nope.


----------



## vger13

beenthere said:


> Flash knows what kind of answers to expect from me, we had discussions here before. I have a lot of respect for him, and his opinions.


flash backed me and "i was riding his coattails"


----------



## beenthere

vger13 said:


> flash backed me and "i was riding his coattails"



Yep. When you quoted him and said this is what you were trying to say.

You wrote posted nothing like he did.


----------



## greenleafmech

Guys, this is getting ridiculous! Get back to the topic and leave your thoughts how much we should charge to yourself! We've have made our business calculations on how much we need to charge to stay up float in this economy. No need for someone in N.C. to tell me how much I need to charge here in Chicago. Actually, I dare you to come here and charge your "good" prices. You will last a year. 

Get back to topic please!


----------



## vger13

beenthere said:


> We don't have deposits on plastics, glass bottles, aluminum or other cans here.
> 
> The EPA would need to change its regs, to permit 10 and 15 pound jugs.
> They would also be higher priced per pound. So it would cost more to use.
> 
> Deposit on non reusable jugs, nope.


been a while since i dealt with someone from PA forgot that most knowall..have an answer to all master mind wonder brain
this is why i see so many moving to the carolina's and not having a clue as to what is going on in the hvac world..had to let five go in the past two years that "had" booming businesses in northern states but come summer in N.C. them boys are chasing there tails and dont know up from down and dont even know what parts to change to be a parts changer so i can take your line..till you have worked in the south you have no idea what i am talking about..as you said you still have homes with no a/c


----------



## beenthere

The topic of Price To Fill R-22 Freon

Means we are pretty much on topic. Since how to price refrigerant charging, coincides with how to price other parts and services.


----------



## beenthere

vger13 said:


> been a while since i dealt with someone from PA forgot that most knowall..have an answer to all master mind wonder brain
> this is why i see so many moving to the carolina's and not having a clue as to what is going on in the hvac world..had to let five go in the past two years that "had" booming businesses in northern states but come summer in N.C. them boys are chasing there tails and dont know up from down and dont even know what parts to change to be a parts changer so i can take your line..till you have worked in the south you have no idea what i am talking about..as you said you still have homes with no a/c



Yep, lots of homes with no central A/C. And installing systems in them makes us money.

Don't know why you would hire anyone that claims they had a "booming" business. Thats a good give away that they were failing.


----------



## greenleafmech

beenthere said:


> The topic of Price To Fill R-22 Freon
> 
> Means we are pretty much on topic. Since how to price refrigerant charging, coincides with how to price other parts and services.


Agree, but I all I see is bickering... :laughing:


----------



## vger13

greenleafmech said:


> Guys, this is getting ridiculous! Get back to the topic and leave your thoughts how much we should charge to yourself! We've have made our business calculations on how much we need to charge to stay up float in this economy. No need for someone in N.C. to tell me how much I need to charge here in Chicago. Actually, I dare you to come here and charge your "good" prices. You will last a year.
> 
> Get back to topic please!


this guy does not realize i am pushing his buttons..he is a easy mark
i would have dropped it after the first post if he had left it alone but as i said he is a easy mark..dont take your dare ,dares are for 12yr girls... fine where i am...beeenthere is the gut in the bar you can talk into fight because you tell him his shirt is the wrong color...as i said most would make a statement and leave it alone (as others did) but he could not,so i kept baiting


----------



## vger13

BEENTHERE- done
as i said was pushingbuttons


----------



## beenthere

greenleafmech said:


> Agree, but I all I see is bickering... :laughing:


Nah, just playing with some guy that can't spell. And thinks everyone should price things out dirt cheap.


----------



## vger13

i would do the same to someone i worked for,with.or worked for me to see how far they go and it what direction
sorry that is my nature


----------



## beenthere

I thought you said you were done.


----------



## greenleafmech

vger13 said:


> i would do the same to someone i worked for,with.or worked for me to see how far they go and it what direction
> sorry that is my nature


As a business owner you should have better things to do it seems like. But then again, you did sign up here just to argue for this topic. Senseless, if you ask me and real business owners should be concentrating on what can help them make more money, and I am barking at the wrong tree here.


----------



## beenthere

Green. Are you going to be at the Comfort Tech show this year(Sept). Its just 20 miles or so from you this year.


----------



## greenleafmech

beenthere said:


> Green. Are you going to be at the Comfort Tech show this year(Sept). Its just 20 miles or so from you this year.


For sure! :thumbup:


----------



## vger13

greenleafmech said:


> As a business owner you should have better things to do it seems like. But then again, you did sign up here just to argue for this topic. Senseless, if you ask me and real business owners should be concentrating on what can help them make more money, and I am barking at the wrong tree here.


well since you make the point...
as someone in this profession i am concentrating protecting the environment,saving consumers money and helping the economy(not just mine) and i am not the one with a thousand or so post


----------



## Dr Heat

vger13 said:


> jeez i guess n.c must have been on the forefront in the industry because i was building homes 1980-85 and i can assure you they all had central a/c


Funny thing I still do not have ac.


----------



## beenthere

greenleafmech said:


> For sure! :thumbup:


I'll be there too.


----------



## vger13

greenleafmech said:


> As a business owner you should have better things to do it seems like. But then again, you did sign up here just to argue for this topic. Senseless, if you ask me and real business owners should be concentrating on what can help them make more money, and I am barking at the wrong tree here.


i assume you must be referring to BT ...he has been a member for about 1460 days has made 1350 post so around 110 days so far in the past four years he has NOT made a post or comment so that is one day of every other week for the past four years


----------



## Dr Heat

vger13 said:


> well since you make the point...
> as someone in this profession i am concentrating protecting the environment,saving consumers money and helping the economy(not just mine) and i am not the one with a thousand or so post


Vgr13 I am going to school you a bit.
Been there is perhaps the most knowledgeable poster on this sight he has helped me and others often. One thing he has done that I deeply respect is elevating this trade teaching young posters that they deserve to be paid well for their knowledge experience education etc. You are a new poster you admit that your sole purpose on this thread was to provoke Been. His sole purpose was to help others and to educate us on how to stay in business.

I for one would appreciate if you would add to the conversation constructively I look forward to your continued involvement in discussions in the future but please do not push buttons. You can learn and teach a lot on this forum.


----------



## greenleafmech

vger13 said:


> saving consumers money


And trust me, we've been told before that we didn't try to rip people off and take them for a ride. But in the other hand we won't be around any longer charging $15 to $20 a pound. Maybe you should look into what your competitors are charging around your area. You might be leaving money on the table for anybody else to take from you. Also, people don't go for the cheapest. They tend to go for the middle and if your prices out of touch with reality, they can only wonder what service they'll receive for your cheap prices. Just my $.02


----------



## vger13

Dr Heat said:


> Vgr13 I am going to school you a bit.
> Been there is perhaps the most knowledgeable poster on this sight he has helped me and others often. One thing he has done that I deeply respect is elevating this trade teaching young posters that they deserve to be paid well for their knowledge experience education etc. You are a new poster you admit that your sole purpose on this thread was to provoke Been. His sole purpose was to help others and to educate us on how to stay in business.
> 
> I for one would appreciate if you would add to the conversation constructively I look forward to your continued involvement in discussions in the future but please do not push buttons. You can learn and teach a lot on this forum.


you are right..if you will go back and look at my first post it referred to giving the customer a good job for a fair price BT has been on my a$$ since if he would leave it alone it would have been done ..hate to tell him but i really dont think he know it all


----------



## greenleafmech

vger13 said:


> i assume you must be referring to BT ...he has been a member for about 1460 days has made 1350 post so around 110 days so far in the past four years he has NOT made a post or comment so that is one day of every other week for the past four years


First rule in everything in life, you must stop assuming! :laughing:


----------



## beenthere

Long time ago when I started writing up proposals. I discovered I had to learn better grammar when I write things.


----------



## beenthere

greenleafmech said:


> First rule in everything in life, you must stop assuming! :laughing:



He was a great comedian.


----------



## greenleafmech

beenthere said:


> Long time ago when I started writing up proposals. I discovered I had to learn better grammar when I write things.


No period between proposals and I. :thumbsup:


----------



## beenthere

greenleafmech said:


> No period between proposals and I. :thumbsup:



I'm still learning. :laughing:


----------



## greenleafmech

beenthere said:


> I'm still learning. :laughing:


Actually going to college has helped me a lot, but I was always picky with my grammar. I'm not always perfect, and also technology is not helping with making newer generations "grammar-savvy".


----------



## beenthere

greenleafmech said:


> Actually going to college has helped me a lot, but I was always picky with my grammar. I'm not always perfect, and also technology is not helping with making newer generations "grammar-savvy".


Good grammar wasn't required when I started turning wrench.


----------



## vger13

beenthere said:


> Good grammar wasn't required when I started turning wrench.


can you read this----


Olny 55% of plepoe can. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!


----------



## Dr Heat

:thumbup:


vger13 said:


> you are right..if you will go back and look at my first post it referred to giving the customer a good job for a fair price BT has been on my a$$ since if he would leave it alone it would have been done ..hate to tell him but i really dont think he know it all


 Actualy it seems you love to tell him he doesn't know it all.:whistling

Thing is he already knows it.

And the A$$ thing lol


----------



## vger13

Dr Heat said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> 
> Actualy it seems you love to tell him he doesn't know it all.:whistling
> 
> Thing is he already knows it.
> 
> And the A$$ thing lol


you are right i do:laughing:


----------



## greenleafmech

beenthere said:


> Good grammar wasn't required when I started turning wrench.


I attended classes when I was in the trade at night. I always has a good photographic memory of the words, even If I didn't know how to spell them. BTW, in high school I was an ESL student, and only picked up 1st year English in my senior year. 

Grammar should be necessary in our trade, especially with customers judging how much you know by what they can see. I'm thinking of ditching the whole written receipt system just because of my poor handwriting. I could do a better job if I go slow, but if customers are waiting for you, I tend to hurry writing. Printing it out of the truck would look professional.


----------



## beenthere

Customers generally prefer if they don't have to struggle to read what you wrote, or type.


----------



## beenthere

greenleafmech said:


> I attended classes when I was in the trade at night. I always has a good photographic memory of the words, even If I didn't know how to spell them. BTW, in high school I was an ESL student, and only picked up 1st year English in my senior year.
> 
> Grammar should be necessary in our trade, especially with customers judging how much you know by what they can see. I'm thinking of ditching the whole written receipt system just because of my poor handwriting. I could do a better job if I go slow, but if customers are waiting for you, I tend to hurry writing. Printing it out of the truck would look professional.


My hand writing bites.

I have to write slow, to make it easier for customers to read.


----------



## vger13

beenthere said:


> Customers generally prefer if they don't have to struggle to read what you wrote, or type.


it is a joke


----------



## flashheatingand

Speaking of hand writing invoices, I have an old manual type writer that I bring to the home when completing the job. They all seem to get a kick out of it. It also makes it easy for the customer to understand what was done.

I dunno, I believe many customers really prefer low tech versus the smart phone / i-pad thing.... I think they find it "charming"


----------



## vger13

flashheatingand said:


> Speaking of hand writing invoices, I have an old manual type writer that I bring to the home when completing the job. They all seem to get a kick out of it. It also makes it easy for the customer to understand what was done.
> 
> I dunno, I believe many customers really prefer low tech versus the smart phone / i-pad thing.... I think they find it "charming"


sounds pretty cool actually especially if you can type up a storm.never took typing.still hunting and pecking


----------



## Dr Heat

greenleafmech said:


> I attended classes when I was in the trade at night. I always has a good photographic memory of the words, even If I didn't know how to spell them. BTW, in high school I was an ESL student, and only picked up 1st year English in my senior year.
> 
> Grammar should be necessary in our trade, especially with customers judging how much you know by what they can see. I'm thinking of ditching the whole written receipt system just because of my poor handwriting. I could do a better job if I go slow, but if customers are waiting for you, I tend to hurry writing. Printing it out of the truck would look professional.


You need to get a good flat rate program. All point and click.


----------



## Doc Holliday

i duHn BuiLdEd duH TraNsiTiOn aN dEn eYe 'd dUhn kLeEndeD dUh epHapEraItoIr aN duH saMe tO dUh konDensuH. 

pay me. :clap:


----------



## Doc Holliday

sEa, eYe weRen"t lAy tWo u. 14 hours today. One air handler, one air handler evap coil and then a new transition with access panel and both coils cleaned. Not stolen equipment guy either Dr. Heat. I got real money for these. :thumbsup:










Goodnight.


----------



## Foxrot

*Hvac biz*

Yes $200.00 for 5 lbs of r-22. That's giving it away. When the person 
calls you again in 30 days is it free. We are now at $75.00 a lb for
r-22 and $65.00 for r-410a. I will not use drop in hot shot. The boys that made that Trane or Carrier ynit would have put Hotshot in it if they
could. I am sure they spent Millions in what freon should be used.

I cost me $115.00 to fill up my f-150 today. Last week cost $560.00 for 
tires. Then my helper backs into a tree. I did have a great looking truck
now it needs $400.00 bumper. And a oil change.

The insurnance Man just autied my books said i owe them $2000.00
because the payroll was high 2 years ago.

The rent is due on the building its only $2500.00 a month. But the City
said its worth so much that that uninsulted building will cost $3900.00
in property tax. I wander if the city will buy it for what they say its worth.

For me to come to your house put in 5 lbs freon. No warrinty. You should buy a new r410 system. Sub cool or super heat. $375.00 freon
89.00 for call with in 10 mile from my shop. Or its More. Should turn it in to a sells call to sell a evap. and Ac

If you have your own busness don't you want to make $100,000. a year
with health bennifts. I don't want to live in a moble home. How to get the right price. Equipment ARS says cost of equipment times 4.
So AC, Coil, Furnace, ls, is 3000.00 + $12,000.00

Or go work for someone that knows what they are doing. 
Hay been doing this for 30 years. Still not rich. I have 1100 service 
contracts in Charlotte, NC. 

If you think you can do it better I will sell the list of customers and the 
building, have 9 payed for trucks. Break, lay out table, stock.
Middle of town
Should bring 1.5 give us a call at 704-545-HEAT


----------



## Doc Holliday

I got $50.00!! 

I pulled in just a tad bit over $2600.00 in 7 days, profit in my pocket. One 410-A complete system with air cleaner for $6500.00 and a slew of condenser coil cleanings. Now had the one customer pulled the trigger on the 1.5 ton 410-A upgrade I'd have another $1500.00 in my pocket. None of which I had to or will have to install. Maybe next week. 

And I don't even own a company, just a technician. And I am for hire!! :clap:


----------



## Doc Holliday

Must be nice owning a company. My boss gets equally as much as each employee he has so he made $2600 from me alone plus however much the other two techs made him. 

But he (you owners) has/have overhead, insurance, office lease, petrol and whatnot. I don't. He even pays my gas. :thumbup:


----------



## flashheatingand

Heavens to Betsy Doc H, if I pulled $2,600 a week, why bother starting your own gig? Don't know how you guys do it, but more power to you.


----------



## Doc Holliday

And it's only getting better! I get 50% of all sales so on a complete system which I sold for $6500 after equipment and pay half of the install crew's wage I recieved $1600. Then I get paid on top of that for showing up in the first place, per service call and then condenser cleanings, $125 to $150 a pop, cash money. I've done 5 last week. Four today alone. I have one system, a 1.5 ton 410-A complete bid at $3800 to go back electric air handler and $4400 to convert to gas to match his other two systems. After material and paying half of the install crew's wages I stand to make $1400, $1500? I have to check the cost...

If I were to install the equipment than I'd make another $250 per condenser, $250-$300 evaporator, $300 furnace and $400 if electric air handler. Sub rate install rate.

Yup, I see no reason to cause myself any more headache..:thumbup:

I just went and did a service call for the stolen equipment guy, two new 410-A systems that his last guy installed. Low voltage second stage heat wired to the cool on both systems and both systems tripped out on high pressure, the condenser. Heat strips installed but not wired into the breaker. I'll finish that up tomorrow, got cool working tonight, and get about $300 for about 1. 5hours of work total.

That's on top of my normal job, what I now consider side work. :thumbsup: 

Life is good and God Bless Texas!!


----------



## cheap

R-22 IS WHAT MOST UNITS STILL USE..THE CHEAPEST PRICE FOR R22 IS NOW $330 PLUS TAX.. This price is for the better customers . Some get better deals, ...It is going up again . All we need now is a hot summer. .410a here I come. I don't see the supply houses selling drop in replacement 22 yet..If the mechanic comes back and finds the leak ,just hope it is an easy repair . Some slow leaks can be tricky to find if inside walls and finished basements..Always check service ports first and then rule out field connections. ..Most condenser leaks leave oil mist ,but not evaporators .. Considering the price of all overhead cost ... you got a temporary deal considering two units were involved .. Some installers don't top off the charge from the beginning


----------



## thinmant

*Cost of freon*

Have any of you guys brought any freon in the last 60 days. 40 bucks a pound is really cheap.


----------



## Electric_Light

We all hate "starting at $***" crap. It's the best if we can add charge for any and every contingency but certainty buys customer confidence especially if refrigerant check is part of routine maintenance. 

There was an experiment conducted by the media a while ago that many systems are overcharged and calling for service can lead to properly charged system getting added with unnecessary refrigerant. Charging absurd per pound price only encourage businesses to train their techs to find reasons to add as much refrigerant as possible. 

If you pay attention and learn the amount of charge that is likely needed per service, the median average usage per service call and add 2-3 pound to that amount, it will give you a figure of expected materials cost that will help you determine what to charge. The 2-3 lbs margin provides customer satisfaction in being able to keep the same price for usual service while preventing loss when you encounter an uncommon, yet costly repair such as a system that takes like 20 lbs of charge that's flat. 

R22 in single cylinder quantity was like $2/LB in 2007. It's like $10/LB now. So, if an average service call takes 3 lbs, that's a $24 increase in average direct cost, which only justifies about 10% increase in cost charged. 

For resi service, I don't see refrigerant cost as that big of a deal. It is a huge deal on maintenance contracts on systems that require thousands of pounds of refrigerant.

How would you like going for an oil change advertised as $15*labor only, materials extra, and getting asked for $8 per quart on oil after they've drained your oil?


----------



## beenthere

Electric_Light said:


> We all hate "starting at $***" crap. It's the best if we can add charge for any and every contingency but certainty buys customer confidence especially if refrigerant check is part of routine maintenance.
> 
> There was an experiment conducted by the media a while ago that many systems are overcharged and calling for service can lead to properly charged system getting added with unnecessary refrigerant. Charging absurd per pound price only encourage businesses to train their techs to find reasons to add as much refrigerant as possible.
> 
> If you pay attention and learn the amount of charge that is likely needed per service, the median average usage per service call and add 2-3 pound to that amount, it will give you a figure of expected materials cost that will help you determine what to charge. The 2-3 lbs margin provides customer satisfaction in being able to keep the same price for usual service while preventing loss when you encounter an uncommon, yet costly repair such as a system that takes like 20 lbs of charge that's flat.
> 
> R22 in single cylinder quantity was like $2/LB in 2007. It's like $10/LB now. So, if an average service call takes 3 lbs, that's a $24 increase in average direct cost, which only justifies about 10% increase in cost charged.
> 
> So a 500% increase in wholesale cost, only justifies a 10% increase in retail price?
> 
> For resi service, I don't see refrigerant cost as that big of a deal. It is a huge deal on maintenance contracts on systems that require thousands of pounds of refrigerant.
> 
> How would you like going for an oil change advertised as $15*labor only, materials extra, and getting asked for $8 per quart on oil after they've drained your oil?


We don't drain the refrigerant from the system. Its already low when we get there. So your auto comparison is not a good analogy.

If customers wish to continue to just have refrigerant added instead of having the leak fixed. They are gonna have a big bill for R22.


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## FrostysHeating

The heart of the matter is this, you have to do what is best for the customer...Always! That being said, if you arrive at a customers house and the unit is low on refrigerant there is a leak. The average residential unit holds 5-8 lbs depending on the size and if you are replacing more than half of its charge you are required by law to find the leak and repair it or simply shut it off. We all have customers that need a charge up every year for a pound or two and until those units get really bad they aren't going to replace unless you can give them a reason to do so. 

As far as the charge for refrigerant goes, Cost for R-22 was $3 a lb and was averaging rough $40/lb in Metro Atlanta in 2006. Today it is almost $11/lb. Now add to that disposal and recovery, time to to weigh and fill out EPA forms for tracking, general knowledge and having the tools to do so that need maintenance and upkeep as well, you have now added something we call OVERHEAD. That means that the $11/lb is now more like $22/lb so now how much do you charge? Depending on your gross margin...that's up to the individual company, but the increase in costs is worth more than a $10 increase for certain however checking prices of competitors by actually picking up the phone and calling around is advisable to see if you are priced accurately for the market. 

Have a Frosty Day!


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## beenthere

FrostysHeating said:


> The heart of the matter is this, you have to do what is best for the customer...Always! That being said, if you arrive at a customers house and the unit is low on refrigerant there is a leak. The average residential unit holds 5-8 lbs depending on the size and if you are replacing more than half of its charge you are required by law to find the leak and repair it or simply shut it off. We all have customers that need a charge up every year for a pound or two and until those units get really bad they aren't going to replace unless you can give them a reason to do so.
> 
> As far as the charge for refrigerant goes, Cost for R-22 was $3 a lb and was averaging rough $40/lb in Metro Atlanta in 2006. Today it is almost $11/lb. Now add to that disposal and recovery, time to to weigh and fill out EPA forms for tracking, general knowledge and having the tools to do so that need maintenance and upkeep as well, you have now added something we call OVERHEAD. That means that the $11/lb is now more like $22/lb so now how much do you charge? Depending on your gross margin...that's up to the individual company, but the increase in costs is worth more than a $10 increase for certain however checking prices of competitors by actually picking up the phone and calling around is advisable to see if you are priced accurately for the market.
> 
> Have a Frosty Day!


You must live outside of the USA. No EPA requirement to repair a leaking residential system, weather it loses 1% or 100% of its charge every year.


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## FrostysHeating

*Apologies*

My apologies, that is why my husband is the technician and I am the marketing person. He informed me this was for commercial not residential. However, as a layperson in the business that seems rather dumb. It should be the other way around! 

Thanks for setting me straight!

The Frostys


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## beenthere

FrostysHeating said:


> My apologies, that is why my husband is the technician and I am the marketing person. He informed me this was for commercial not residential. However, as a layperson in the business that seems rather dumb. It should be the other way around!
> 
> Thanks for setting me straight!
> 
> The Frostys


I wish the EPA reg said you couldn't top off a charge on a residential unit more then once. I would make a very nice sum every week doing leak searches, and repairs/coil replacements. And be backed up for 6 months for the next several years.

PS: EPA only requires that the leak be reduced to under trigger rate on commercial and industrial systems containing 50 or more pounds of normal operating charge. If it contains less then 50 pounds, no leak repair is required for then.


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## Electric_Light

Foxrot said:


> Yes $200.00 for 5 lbs of r-22. That's giving it away. When the person
> calls you again in 30 days is it free. We are now at $75.00 a lb for
> r-22 and $65.00 for r-410a. I will not use drop in hot shot. The boys that made that Trane or Carrier ynit would have put Hotshot in it if they
> could. I am sure they spent Millions in what freon should be used.
> 
> I cost me $115.00 to fill up my f-150 today. Last week cost $560.00 for
> tires. Then my helper backs into a tree. I did have a great looking truck
> now it needs $400.00 bumper. And a oil change.
> 
> The insurnance Man just autied my books said i owe them $2000.00
> because the payroll was high 2 years ago.
> 
> The rent is due on the building its only $2500.00 a month. But the City
> said its worth so much that that uninsulted building will cost $3900.00
> in property tax. I wander if the city will buy it for what they say its worth.
> 
> For me to come to your house put in 5 lbs freon. No warrinty. You should buy a new r410 system. Sub cool or super heat. $375.00 freon
> 89.00 for call with in 10 mile from my shop. Or its More. Should turn it in to a sells call to sell a evap. and Ac
> 
> If you have your own busness don't you want to make $100,000. a year
> with health bennifts. I don't want to live in a moble home. How to get the right price. Equipment ARS says cost of equipment times 4.
> So AC, Coil, Furnace, ls, is 3000.00 + $12,000.00
> 
> Or go work for someone that knows what they are doing.
> Hay been doing this for 30 years. Still not rich. I have 1100 service
> contracts in Charlotte, NC.
> 
> If you think you can do it better I will sell the list of customers and the
> building, have 9 payed for trucks. Break, lay out table, stock.
> Middle of town
> Should bring 1.5 give us a call at 704-545-HEAT


Gosh, my brain hurts. It's difficult for readers to have to decode your post as they read it. Is it that hard to run it through a quick spelling check?


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## creek1

BiggersJunior said:


> You guys are in a good business and are making more than most "office" people that have college educations, masters degrees, etc... I know numerous people that spent well over $800 for books (big deal)......try over $100,000 for a good college education that took many 4+ years to obtain.......Maybe you have similar degrees......maybe not.....but you are making more money than most of those people, which is good for you!


Just because someone was told young "you have to go to college to make a good living". Then find out that someone in another country can do it cheaper. Dont get mad at the people who can do for themselves and have truly needed in demand skills. Maybe it just shows who is smart and only had to pay $800 for books. Guys like us get stuff done in everything we do. We just chose this trade. We chose not to sit in a cube and b$$$$ cuz the a/c dont work. See it all the time the suit with a garage full of tools. Cant fix a thing. Screwgun screws pliers hammer. Watch what we can do. Didnt HAVE to spend 100k to be smart. We are the definition.
Thanks for the props saw a chance to rant.


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## Electric_Light

creek1 said:


> Just because someone was told young "you have to go to college to make a good living". Then find out that someone in another country *can do it cheaper*.


Same goes with a lot of hands-on work. The wages these people are getting paid are not sustainable without price fixing scheme by union and anti-competitive market created by labor control tactics of unionism origin. It's truly ridiculous that some trades require apprenticeship that takes longer than a bachelor's degree. 

Duration/seniority based progressions as opposed to performance based ones are bull. 

Look at longshoremen and their union vehemently fighting against port automation in fear of displacement. If the job was truly difficult and automation proves to be near impossible, they wouldn't have the need to put up this fight. 

Truth be told, if apprenticeship and trainee requirements were substantially shortened, the oppositions claiming skills/safety etc are a coverup to reduce competition. 

If contractors are genuinely concerned about safety threats to others from unlicensed contractors working, they'd spending just as much time walking around and volunteering to report/repair all trip hazards they come across in the name of preventing hazards to untold number of people. 




> Dont get mad at the people who can do for themselves and have truly needed in demand skills.


Truly in demand skills do not depend on unionism or arbitrary pay scale designed to protect livelihood. Nurses and pharmacists make what they do, because of market demand. 

Many trades that anyone can basically learn bears higher price tag than whats set by the free market, because artificially raise the price point. 

Not everyone is union, but the artificially high union wages mean that non-unions can still charge a high price because it would still be a bargain compared to non-union workers. 



> We chose not to sit in a cube and b$$$$ cuz the a/c dont work. See it all the time the suit with a garage full of tools. Cant fix a thing. Screwgun screws pliers hammer. Watch what we can do. Didnt HAVE to spend 100k to be smart. We are the definition.
> Thanks for the props saw a chance to rant.


Instead, some of you choose to depend on strong armed labor unions to artificially raise what you get paid and keep out competition to some degree through arbitrary crap like seniority, union origin apprentice program and the like.

Ability to bump someone else on basis of seniority... that baloney only flies in union shops. Again, in true competitive driven market, there's no such need for this kind of non-sense.


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## Electric_Light

BiggersJunior said:


> I had an HVAC tech come over tonight and he filled my unit with 5lbs of freon. He checked my 2 units to make sure they were both full. He was here for about an hour and charged me $200. Is this a fair price?
> 
> He said the cost of freon has risen dramatically over the past several months. How much do you guys charge for a similar service, or what price per lb do you charge? I look forward to your comments.


Fair or not... I'm not sure. 

When it comes to buying a shot of Grey Goose at the bar for $8 vs buying a bottle good for 17 shots for $35 in store, you have a total control. Unfortunately the HVAC trade likes to make sure that supply purchase is restricted. 


as for the reason he cited, it was just an attempt to rationalize his rate in a way that won't make you feel bad. It is true that the refrigerant did go up 60% in the year or two leading up to your service, but for the amount in question, the impact was far less significant than what he made it out to be. 

Just for the heck of it, the whole sale price on R22 when your post was made was around $4 to $4.50 per pound. 

In 2007, it was about $3.00/lb ($15.00/5 #)
In 2008, it sharply rose to about $4.75/lb ($23.75/ 5#)
All of $8.75 in material cost difference, which is not significant in relation to the $200 he billed you. 

As of May 2012, it looks to be $12-15 per pound.

Historical prices of refrigerants aren't as readily available as gasoline prices, so its easier to exaggerate the impact of "increasing R22 prices" than "gas prices for van"


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## plummen

Electric_Light said:


> Fair or not... I'm not sure.
> 
> When it comes to buying a shot of Grey Goose at the bar for $8 vs buying a bottle good for 17 shots for $35 in store, you have a total control. Unfortunately the HVAC trade likes to make sure that supply purchase is restricted.
> 
> 
> as for the reason he cited, it was just an attempt to rationalize his rate in a way that won't make you feel bad. It is true that the refrigerant did go up 60% in the year or two leading up to your service, but for the amount in question, the impact was far less significant than what he made it out to be.
> 
> Just for the heck of it, the whole sale price on R22 when your post was made was around $4 to $4.50 per pound.
> 
> In 2007, it was about $3.00/lb ($15.00/5 #)
> In 2008, it sharply rose to about $4.75/lb ($23.75/ 5#)
> All of $8.75 in material cost difference, which is not significant in relation to the $200 he billed you.
> 
> As of May 2012, it looks to be $12-15 per pound.
> 
> Historical prices of refrigerants aren't as readily available as gasoline prices, so its easier to exaggerate the impact of "increasing R22 prices" than "gas prices for van"


Well I can remember when you could buy 30lb of r-22 for under $50.00 at the supply house,now last I heard it was closer to $400.00 for a jug and im gonna squeeze every drop i can from my existing supply before buying any more.
You can thank your heroes at the epa for a big chunk of that price increase.
These are the same people who were screaming about global cooling in the 70s-80s,then they started screaming global warming.
1st it was cars and factorys,then it was the chlorine released by cfc's in aerosol cans and refrigirents.
Heres a news flash chlorine is released constantly from the salt in the oceans and every place else around the world!
Now theyre blaming it on cows farting! :whistling:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
what a bunch of freaking clowns! :thumbup:


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## Dr Heat

Electric_Light said:


> Fair or not... I'm not sure.
> 
> When it comes to buying a shot of Grey Goose at the bar for $8 vs buying a bottle good for 17 shots for $35 in store, you have a total control. Unfortunately the HVAC trade likes to make sure that supply purchase is restricted.
> 
> 
> as for the reason he cited, it was just an attempt to rationalize his rate in a way that won't make you feel bad. It is true that the refrigerant did go up 60% in the year or two leading up to your service, but for the amount in question, the impact was far less significant than what he made it out to be.
> 
> Just for the heck of it, the whole sale price on R22 when your post was made was around $4 to $4.50 per pound.
> 
> In 2007, it was about $3.00/lb ($15.00/5 #)
> In 2008, it sharply rose to about $4.75/lb ($23.75/ 5#)
> All of $8.75 in material cost difference, which is not significant in relation to the $200 he billed you.
> 
> As of May 2012, it looks to be $12-15 per pound.
> 
> Historical prices of refrigerants aren't as readily available as gasoline prices, so its easier to exaggerate the impact of "increasing R22 prices" than "gas prices for van"


Wow you really don't like Hvac Guys. The fact is the prices of Freon are as readily available as the price of gas just ask and the company you are shopping will tell you what they charge. As for the production cost and the taxes and impact fee's the cost of loss from leaky tanks or theft, that's another issue. your stated price of 12 to 15 is whole sale, now bring it to the house and put it in the condenser.


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## Electric_Light

Dr Heat said:


> Wow you really don't like Hvac Guys. The fact is the prices of Freon are as readily available as the price of gas just ask and the company you are shopping will tell you what they charge.


Unlike gas, there's a great variation in amount charged by contractors, especially rezi ones. There is a forum operated by a company called Contracting Business Magazine and the rules there strictly prohibits price discussions. 

R22 isn't one of the kind unique product. It's an industrial commodity. 

If mechanics itemized $40/pint on brake fluid $75/lamp on headlight or an AV tech itemized $12/ea on AA battery for the remote on top of charging hourly rates customers would balk at them. These items are readily available and material prices are fairly well known to the average people. 

If you were told standard labor + $75 x 2 to replace your headlights on your service van, you would probably tell him to leave it alone and you'll do it yourself. The HVAC industry works in such a way that it puts equipment owners into submitting into this kind of rip off by creating arbitrary restrictions in supply designed to prevent DIY competition or frustrate them with long lead time for parts even when EPA restricted refrigerants aren't involved. 

If capacitor goes out on the condensing unit, supply houses won't sell to owners because their contractor customers will get pizzled at that. If the owner wants it fixed in a day or two, he's forced to pay up outrageous prices to 

A.) HVAC contractor
B.) Overnight the capacitor from internet supplier.. but boy Next Day Air is $$$$. 


I think the management at Contracting Business Magazines strongly believe in secrecy. 

I find that many HVACers don't really care for market value on service commodities being more readily available with the advent of web stores, eBay and such. 

The equipment markup is also quite outrageous. When you buy a cookie cutter car for $20,000, the invoice price is well above $15,000
When you buy a $5,000 HVAC system, its in the $2,000 range.

The installing contractor is providing value in installation to the amount of labor hours. As far as equipment markup they're quite possibly on the same playing level as used car salesmen.

Anyways, now that we're moving onto R410A, its about time we should be able to buy R410A in home and garden, R134a in automotive and CO2 in toy sections of Wal*Mart Super Center.


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## beenthere

Actually, at that forum, we talk about prices every day. Its just done in the Pro only forums.

Comparing HVAC to the Automotive industry is comparing apples to oranges. 

When is the last time you hauled your central A/C system to an HVAC shop for them to work on it?

You ever take notice that at an automotive shop. they have the parts to delivered to them as they need them. From what ever auto parts supplier carries that/those parts. HVAC supply houses don't deliver repair parts to the job site when a tech calls for a part.


You buy a new car. The manufacturer pays the dealer to repair it if something breaks during the warranty period. In HVAC, all the labor for warranty work is put on the installing contractor. Plus, the auto repair is done during their normal working hours. While in HVAC people expect you to come out and do he warranty repair weather its midnight, or on a Sunday.

You can order your own R410A and R134A online. So have at it, and buy as much as you want.

Start your own HVAC install/service business and sell parts and refrigerant at wholesale or 10% above cost.


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## flashheatingand

Electric_Light said:


> I find that many HVACers don't really care for market value on service commodities being more readily available with the advent of web stores, eBay and such?


Of course we don't like to have our prices readily divulged on the internet. Is there any business that likes to divulge their costs, or profit margins.

As a homeowner, you can readily find various parts at appliance parts stores, and at h.v.a.c shops, you will simply pay retail. Also, anybody can purchase a 30lb jug of refrigerant, after taking a relatively simple multiple choice test. For most folks, it's simply not worth the effort because the guages aren't cheap, and you can mess up your equipment. You are making things more difficult than they really are.

For the record, I didn't mean thank you on your last post, I hit the wrong button...


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## plummen

Electric_Light said:


> Unlike gas, there's a great variation in amount charged by contractors, especially rezi ones. There is a forum operated by a company called Contracting Business Magazine and the rules there strictly prohibits price discussions.
> 
> R22 isn't one of the kind unique product. It's an industrial commodity.
> 
> If mechanics itemized $40/pint on brake fluid $75/lamp on headlight or an AV tech itemized $12/ea on AA battery for the remote on top of charging hourly rates customers would balk at them. These items are readily available and material prices are fairly well known to the average people.
> 
> If you were told standard labor + $75 x 2 to replace your headlights on your service van, you would probably tell him to leave it alone and you'll do it yourself. The HVAC industry works in such a way that it puts equipment owners into submitting into this kind of rip off by creating arbitrary restrictions in supply designed to prevent DIY competition or frustrate them with long lead time for parts even when EPA restricted refrigerants aren't involved.
> 
> If capacitor goes out on the condensing unit, supply houses won't sell to owners because their contractor customers will get pizzled at that. If the owner wants it fixed in a day or two, he's forced to pay up outrageous prices to
> 
> A.) HVAC contractor
> B.) Overnight the capacitor from internet supplier.. but boy Next Day Air is $$$$.
> 
> 
> I think the management at Contracting Business Magazines strongly believe in secrecy.
> 
> I find that many HVACers don't really care for market value on service commodities being more readily available with the advent of web stores, eBay and such.
> 
> The equipment markup is also quite outrageous. When you buy a cookie cutter car for $20,000, the invoice price is well above $15,000
> When you buy a $5,000 HVAC system, its in the $2,000 range.
> 
> The installing contractor is providing value in installation to the amount of labor hours. As far as equipment markup they're quite possibly on the same playing level as used car salesmen.
> 
> Anyways, now that we're moving onto R410A, its about time we should be able to buy R410A in home and garden, R134a in automotive and CO2 in toy sections of Wal*Mart Super Center.


You show me what a dealership actually pays for a car theyre selling for $20,000.00,Id love to know that bit of info as well as all the kick backs they get! :clap:
So what business are you in so we can figure out how much you or your employer makes off us poor saps? :whistling


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## Electric_Light

beenthere said:


> While in HVAC people expect you to come out and do he *warranty repair* weather its midnight, or on a Sunday.


If you're silly enough to write a sloppy contract.


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## plummen

Electric_Light said:


> If you're silly enough to write a sloppy contract.


What does writing a sloppy contract have to do with going out at any given time to take care of a cwarranty issue?
If my customer has a problem at 3 in the morning I go look at it,has nothing to do with a contract.
its called customer service! :whistling


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## chambstwo

*R-22 freon replacement*

MO99 is the new freon to replace R22. Cost less and no need to replace components for the new gas.:thumbsup:

M-099ISCEON® MO99™ refrigerant
The Quick Switch for R-22 Replacement


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## beenthere

Electric_Light said:


> If you're silly enough to write a sloppy contract.


You really have no idea what goes into an HVAC install contract. Your post just made that very obvious.

It also made it obvious to anyone that didn't already know. You have no background in HVAC to understand any of it. Weather the mechanical end, or the business end.


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## beenthere

chambstwo said:


> MO99 is the new freon to replace R22. Cost less and no need to replace components for the new gas.:thumbsup:
> 
> M-099ISCEON® MO99™ refrigerant
> The Quick Switch for R-22 Replacement


Its a poor choice as an R22 replacement.


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## Electric_Light

plummen said:


> What does writing a sloppy contract have to do with going out at any given time to take care of a cwarranty issue?
> If my customer has a problem at 3 in the morning I go look at it,has nothing to do with a contract.
> its called customer service! :whistling


How the warranty is addressed has everything to do with contract. If the terms of warranty only includes next soonest normal business hour, then responding at 3AM is not part of your warranty liability. 

Warranty obligation is a legal contract. If it's not on paper, it means nothing. 

Warranty repairs on Mechanical systems at 11PM on Christmas day is not legally expected unless its stated on warranty contract. 

If it is on paper and you can't make it, it means that the selling contractor that agreed on the warranty contract is responsible for the cost to have someone else respond. 

So, if its not on paper, installers can say all they want and get away with only responding after hours only when they feel like it.


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## Dr Heat

Guys he is an Electrician which basicaly means he knows nothing about every thing and is more than willing to pruve it. his forth comming comment on my spelling will show that he is critical arogent and has way too mutch time on his hands in other words he is an unemployed electricion.:laughing: the only good electrician is a female electrician at least then there is somting to look at.


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## Electric_Light

Dr Heat said:


> Guys he is an Electrician which *basicaly *means he knows nothing about every thing and is more than willing to *pruve *it. his forth *comming *comment on my spelling will show that he is critical *arogent *and has way too *mutch *time on his hands in other words he is an unemployed *electricion*.:laughing: the only good electrician is a female electrician at least then there is *somting *to look at.


There's a certain value to doing it RIGHT the first time.


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## Tinstaafl

Enough.


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