# Questions for The Bathroom Pros



## mc handyman (May 17, 2009)

Thank you in advance for taking the time to help me out on this one.

I have a client that wants their existing shower puled out and replaced with a larger more updated one. My question is what do you guys look at when choosing a new shower for an already existing shower area? How do you measure up for the drain is in the same place, the controls are in relativly the same place and all that. What is the "wordage" when it comes to measurments pertaining to these areas? 

Do manufactuers carry on with a standard drain setting? 

Thanks for your help.
Best wishes,
MC


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

*Are you ready for this job?*

MC-You may not have the skills for this job.

Here is a shower forum that will give you an idea what you should know.:thumbsup:
Shower Construction Info (a collection of posts) - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile 

First off;the drain P-trap frequently must be replaced or moved.

Second;the shower mixer valve is as old as the shower stall-It should be replaced also.

If you are installing a fiberglass shower surround,Are you prepared to buy a replacement -with your own money-if you blow the cut out for the mixer hole?

A tiled surround seriously requires some professional training to be good enough to sell.

I suggest small steps in the beginning. GOOD LUCK--MIKE--


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Very tactfully put Mike!


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

I try.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

mc handyman said:


> I have a client that wants their existing shower puled out and replaced with a larger more updated one. My question is what do you guys look at when choosing a new shower for an already existing shower area? How do you measure up for the drain is in the same place, the controls are in relativly the same place and all that. What is the "wordage" when it comes to measurments pertaining to these areas?
> 
> MC


What does your GL insurance policy say about you doing this work? I have a sneaky suspicion it says something like -

_If you do this and F it up and cause water damage/ mold to the customer's house we will not cover it because you are not covered for this type of work by this policy._


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

mikeswoods said:


> MC-You may not have the skills for this job.


Understatement of the year!:laughing::laughing:


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

(I blasted off on some one yesterday,Must have opened a few eyes,Just trying to be a new nicer person today)


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I just noticed that the "C" key is only one key over from the "Z" key......Hmmmmmm....:whistling
:laughing:


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## samccard (Aug 17, 2007)

You may need to call a plumber.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

samccard said:


> You may need to call a plumber.


among other things:whistling


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

mc handyman said:


> Thank you in advance for taking the time to help me out on this one.
> 
> I have a client that wants their existing shower puled out and replaced with a larger more updated one. My question is what do you guys look at when choosing a new shower for an already existing shower area? How do you measure up for the drain is in the same place, the controls are in relativly the same place and all that. What is the "wordage" when it comes to measurments pertaining to these areas?
> 
> ...


Let me try to explain the answers you have heard so far.

1 you client wants a larger shower. The first thing you need to know is the "standard" base sizes from say "Fiat" as they are a good base In order to know this you need to have some relationship with a supplier.
The second thing you need to know is what is the size that your client has in mind. Now lets just say that he wants the largest shower he can fit in his space and for this answer it is 38"x 56" that is not a "standard" size anywhere, so you will have to Float a base....... no problem you don't even have to move the drain that way:clap:......but you need to know how to preslope, pan, and drypack a shower base:blink:. (I am using industry jargon or "wordage") the valve set is simple call your plumber buddy and add 15% to his bid. Dens the walls and dont mind those who have drunk the ORANGE Kool-Aid:no:, maybe a ceiling, upsell a fan/light combo:thumbup: and you are golden. 
Now it is time for tile. push for 12" x 12" as there are fewer pieces to set :thumbsup: set your level boards and lay it down. (remember the more additives in the thinset the harder it is to clean your trowells)

If you have upsold the ceiling set it on the diagonal so you don't have to spend too much time on the layout of the walls:whistling and you may want to set that first.

have your clients pick the grout and dont get ahead of your self and let it cook off......

hope this helps Craig


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I'd normally be all over a post like this but grinding cushion backed vinyl off 350 sq ft of concrete has done me in today....so:

yeah, what they said :thumbsup:


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

My advise, find someone that knows what they are doing (like a bathroom pro)

Stick to what you can do and watch and learn from the pros


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## mc handyman (May 17, 2009)

Mikeswood and Charimon, Thank you both for your helpfull replies. I have a friend who is a retired plumber in the area, I think I better give him a call and get schooled. I have put two showers in before but they were for close friends and they did not seem this daunting. 
The advice on the mixing valve replacment has already been taken into consideration. I have been looking at the fiberglass showers and that to has been on my mind. 

Jarvis- I have done and witnessed many remodels and installs, there has to be a point where this little boy becomes a man and gets his feet wet. The best experiance is hands on and thats a fact. Although it may be hit or miss. Risks are involved in everything we do. I am willing to take the risk, even though I am very optimistic that the work I will do will be that of quality and reliability. You have a valid point and I respect it. It is time for me to take the bull by the horn.

I am always looking for mentors in everything I do. If any of you would be willing to share your personal E-mail/number with me I would very much be glad to be your protege.

This is good stuff!~ keep it coming. :thumbup:


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## mc handyman (May 17, 2009)

Jarvis- I took a look at your website, very nice! Nice Portfolio as well. Where do you get your Schluter Kerdi shower systems? What are the prominant benefits of this system compared to the traditional shower systems as outlined on you tilled shower section?

Thanks!
-MC


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

mc handyman said:


> Jarvis- I took a look at your website, very nice! Nice Portfolio as well. Where do you get your Schluter Kerdi shower systems? What are the prominant benefits of this system compared to the traditional shower systems as outlined on you tilled shower section?
> 
> Thanks!
> -MC



Where are you located?


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

*Bathroom Reno Advice*

There are more things that could go wrong with a bathroom renovation than you can imagine. That said 20 years ago I told my friends Mom that a bathroom renovation was no big deal and I could do it for her. What a nightmare - I was walked from the job and right fully so.

Water flows down hill, water lines and drain lines need to be tested before covering, bouncy floors are bad and there are more than 5 ways to water proof your shower.

Taking out an old shower is just the start. Did the first guy mess up the framing? Is there a floor joist where the new drain has to go? Do you have a 1 1/2" drain line or 2". Why not sell a shampoo niche and custom shower floor.

Offer to do the stuff you know. Demo, trim, drywall etc and sub out the rest. Offer to over see and help the subs - project management. Watch and learn. When you are ready you won't need to ask questions you will answer them.

I made it a point for years to track down the top guys, hire them and learn their skills. Ask where they buy their tools, stir their mud. Watch and learn.

The John Bridge site is a good one for tile. Post your pictures and move slowly - some one will catch you if you are going a stray.

Good Luck


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## Frank P (Nov 2, 2009)

How much bigger do they want to go? How much money are you working with? How much damage do you think is hidden under the old shower? How big is the drain? Do they want multiple shower heads? Thermostatic valves and volume controls? Do you have enough pressure/volume to run the system? Can you read and understand German {or just German pictures?} sorry inside humor. Do they want lights in the shower, what about ventilation? Thats just in the shower....off the top of my head.

Here is a shower pic for you. Yes, 2 shower drains to handle all of the water. Solatube in the ceiling for light, remote inline vent fan for ventilation. I can read German pictures.

Good Luck and dont get in over your head.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

*German Pictures*

Good point with the German pictures.

At least the parts are some times numbered. That really helps.....


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

mikeswoods said:


> (I blasted off on some one yesterday,Must have opened a few eyes,Just trying to be a new nicer person today)


:laughing: :laughing: :jester:


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

Ugh..I hope I am never known as a "bathroom pro"


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

mics_54 said:


> Ugh..I hope I am never known as a "bathroom pro"


It is a rather Crappy :shutup:title


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

charimon said:


> It is a rather Crappy :shutup:title


:laughing: :laughing: Royal Flush.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

mc handyman said:


> Jarvis- I have done and witnessed many remodels and installs, there has to be a point where this little boy becomes a man and gets his feet wet. The best experiance is hands on and thats a fact. Although it may be hit or miss. Risks are involved in everything we do. I am willing to take the risk, even though I am very optimistic that the work I will do will be that of quality and reliability. You have a valid point and I respect it. It is time for me to take the bull by the horn.


I will admit in my younger days there wasn't a task that I had seen done that I thought, heck, if they can do it, why can't I?? If you can work with someone for a while on a variety of jobs (ie: houses that are 20 and 150 years old), you will gain a lot of knowledge and experiance. 
You don't want to hang your shingle then not be able to do the work!

The big risk is to get in way over your head - then drown

Hope you stick around the forum, its nice to have people who want to learn.

And, if you haven't, fill out your profile so people know where you are at!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

jarvis design said:


> The big risk is to get in way over your head - then drown


Only good contractors with experience and integrity, been around for awhile and know their limits ever drown on a job.

Handyman never drown on the job, the homeowners get screwed. Usually takes anywhere from an obvious couple of months for them to figure it out or up to a couple of years after they figure out that wet spot on the ceiling that shows up every once in a while, they thought was too far away from where the bathroom was is actually coming from the bathroom and it all comes back to the guy they hired on the cheap to do the work who was over his head and had to ask on an online forum for advice on how to do the entire job.

Only one better is the customers I met recently with the f-d up steam shower who still think they did nothing wrong hiring a guy who was reading a book on the job site to learn how to do it. They actually admired him for using a book. I guess they thought he was scholarly. 

*Let's all ask Mr. Handyman one more time what does his GL insurance policy say about covering this work?*

Lets face it, a handyman is not going to draw limits for himself on a job, throw his hands up in the air and say okay, at the risk of something going terribly wrong down the road, I'm just going to have to hire a plumber and spend $800.00 out of my pocket to make sure this is right. I'm over my head and it's not worth it.

A handyman is never going to do that. They bid the whole project for $800.00 in the first place.


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> Only good contractors with experience and integrity, been around for awhile and know their limits ever drown on a job.
> 
> Handyman never drown on the job, the homeowners get screwed.


Mike, You bring up a good point. 

I would phrase it Only folks (contractor, handyman, sub) with Integrity drown on a job. 
Those who don't regardless of, or more likely because of, their experience and how long they have been around, will screw their clients.

(rambling thots)
Insurence is necessary. We all need to make sure out hineys are covered in case of the very worst. In the last year I have been brought in to deconstruct 2 Fine grade showers that were leaking only to find crazy reasons for the problem......when i do this kind of work it sharpens my resolve to make sure EVERY install is well done.

One of the reasons I have started hanging out here is some of you are as Anal about quality as I am but we use different methods so the discourse gets :whistling.
Craig


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## mc handyman (May 17, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Where are you located?


I am in Minnesota, northern sticks.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> *Let's all ask Mr. Handyman one more time what does his GL insurance policy say about covering this work?*





mc handyman said:


> I am in Minnesota, northern sticks.


:whistling


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

:clap: Who needs MZ...HAHAHAHA!!!! If I had the technology, I'd post a link......Thanks OP:laughing:


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Good point about the insurance, hire subs if and when you need or want them and get some good advice then go forward. Listen to your friend who's a plumber. Consider getting some design advice also. Remember to use an anti-scalding mixing valve per code, don't get discouraged by disparaging and belittling comments............................


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Rio said:


> Good point about the insurance, hire subs if and when you need or want them and get some good advice then go forward. Listen to your friend who's a plumber. Consider getting some design advice also. Remember to use an anti-scalding mixing valve per code, don't get discouraged by disparaging and belittling comments............................


:blink:


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

On my bathroom jobs I stick with what I know, which is the carpentry portion. Plumbers handle installing the shower, tile guy puts on tile. I've seen carpenters try to install showers before, it's funny, usually just doesn't work. Plumbers install showers in new construction, it's their trade, so let them do it.


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## mc handyman (May 17, 2009)

Rio said:


> Good point about the insurance, hire subs if and when you need or want them and get some good advice then go forward. Listen to your friend who's a plumber. Consider getting some design advice also. Remember to use an anti-scalding mixing valve per code, don't get discouraged by disparaging and belittling comments............................


Thank you! That is indeed the kind of advice I am looking for. I do intend to hire on subs when I do not have the resources or coverage to handle the job. In regards to all the comments, I can take it. Yes, I am a Handyman and I own a handyman Business with two very succesful locations that bring me in a very comfortable living for me as a current bachelor and college student.
I can take all these comments, the belittling ones, because I know that what I have is not second best. I know that in order to obtain the knowlege that I need to start a second leg to my enterprise I must be willing to take the hits. I do very much so respect your kind advice and support. 
Thank You My Friend,
MC:thumbup:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

mc handyman said:


> Thank you! That is indeed the kind of advice I am looking for.* I do intend to hire on subs when I do not have the resources or coverage to handle the job.* In regards to all the comments, I can take it. Yes, I am a Handyman and I own a handyman Business with two very succesful locations that bring me in a very comfortable living for me as a current bachelor and college student.
> I can take all these comments, the belittling ones, because I know that what I have is not second best. I know that in order to obtain the knowlege that I need to start a second leg to my enterprise I must be willing to take the hits. I do very much so respect your kind advice and support.
> Thank You My Friend,
> MC:thumbup:


Like on this job?:whistling


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

JumboJack said:


> Like on this job?:whistling


:laughing:

No, we all know that is the all inclusive 'other' jobs.

As all handyman, he is focused on hiring a sub "when he doesn't have the resources or coverage". I didn't read anything there about he will hire subs when he is required by law. Handyman have a different set of laws, it's called: "if it worked at my house I can apply it to a customer's job."

He's got a lucrative biz going in 2 locations based on doing illegal work that he doesn't even know how to do. As long as he's got 'coverage' he's all set and can take these 'shots'.


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## mc handyman (May 17, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> :laughing:
> 
> No, we all know that is the all inclusive 'other' jobs.
> 
> ...


 
I enjoy to hear your opinion on what you think all handyman business are. I will let you know that I am insured, most of my jobs I am wayyy overinsured, and yes, I do pay a big penny for this. I do not feel it is relevent to share with you what my exact coverage is being that I have nothing to prove to you. Let me ask you this. If you were developing a construction firm from scratch and using only owners equity to build it, would you be able to build it to a sagnificant level without subbing out some aspects of the work? Or do you always have the right tools, the right money, or the right ragulation to do so? I have subbed out a few jobs, yes. Is there anything wrong with that? 
As far as your juvinile remark of "if it works at my house it will work at my clients". That is quite funny to me. I know you are just trying to get respect from your big time big shot high roller trade buddies but as far as I am concerned you have no idea what kind of work I do. All I can say is that I always have my personal roll of ducttape with me in the truck when I show up at a job.:laughing:
All do respect, I am sure I am doing much better in business compared to you right now relitive to overhead and liabilities. I can sleep at night knowing that my phone is still going to ring multiple times each day. With the ever growing age of the "do-it-for-me" baby boomers, I am much satisfied with my business and assured that what I offer is a notch above the rest of the handyman that you have ever met. ohh did i mention that I am insured?


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## 10fingers (Jan 5, 2008)

*Revenue Streams*



mc handyman said:


> Mikeswood and Charimon, Thank you both for your helpfull replies. I have a friend who is a retired plumber in the area, I think I better give him a call and get schooled. I have put two showers in before but they were for close friends and they did not seem this daunting.
> The advice on the mixing valve replacment has already been taken into consideration. I have been looking at the fiberglass showers and that to has been on my mind.
> 
> Jarvis- I have done and witnessed many remodels and installs, there has to be a point where this little boy becomes a man and gets his feet wet. The best experiance is hands on and thats a fact. Although it may be hit or miss. Risks are involved in everything we do. I am willing to take the risk, even though I am very optimistic that the work I will do will be that of quality and reliability. You have a valid point and I respect it. It is time for me to take the bull by the horn.
> ...


 
Here are some of the revenue streams assigned to your project:

Demolition
Framing 
Sub contracting (re plumber)
Drywall 
Flooring 
Trim 
Paint 

Why would you feel the need to do ever single aspect of the job? I look at the list and see areas of high risk. Screw up the shower pan drain and a small leak will not make itself known until all the drywall, flooring etc... has been completed. I've seen many drains installed and I still won't touch it. Ever had to rip out a new shower pan? Greatest asset I have as a business owner is knowing my limits. I suspect your projects are getting bigger and you feel you have a need to do all the work yourself. I suggest this is not good business practice and operating in this manner, in my opinion, is negligent. You are not using the best resources that are available at your disposal, i.e. certified trades people. Why not link up with a plumber and sub contract that portion of the project out and generate revenue through a general contracting fee? I look at projects as opportunities to generate different revenue streams.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

10fingers said:


> Why not link up with a plumber and sub contract that portion of the project out and generate revenue through a general contracting fee? I look at projects as opportunities to generate different revenue streams.


Because handyman charge $20 an hour and are damn proud of it! How are they going to pay somebody who is charging at least 3 x what they do? :laughing:


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## lopreste (Nov 13, 2009)

What is the budget like? Hire/ sub a good pro with a lot of experience. Don't bid low so you have some cushion if something goes wrong.
does not sound like you have the experience you might want to take a pass until your skills catch up to your marketing.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

mc handyman said:


> My question is what do you guys look at when choosing a new shower for an already existing shower area? How do you measure up for the drain is in the same place, the controls are in relativly the same place and all that. What is the "wordage" when it comes to measurments pertaining to these areas?
> 
> Do manufactuers carry on with a standard drain setting?
> Thanks for your help.
> ...


Bottom line,if you have to ask these kind of questions,you have no business doing a bathroom remodel...



lopreste said:


> What is the budget like? Hire/ sub a good pro with a lot of experience. Don't bid low so you have some cushion if something goes wrong.
> *does not sound like you have the experience you might want to take a pass until your skills catch up to your marketing.*


Bingo...


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