# New to Airless - Heavy runs w/ FFLP 210



## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

rudman667 said:


> Good lord. Why do I feel like someone just introduced me to a computer for the first time?? I'm definitely using the correct seat. The first couple of times I cleaned it I watched some videos about removing it and learned that they were different. BUT, I'm not using that little yellow piece. My SW guy said that it was a "solvent seal" so it wasn't needed to spray PC. Doesn't it just go on the bottom of the tip?
> 
> I picked up a 310, 312, and a 410. Really hoping something makes a difference on Monday.
> 
> So what would I use a 210 for? For doors I guess not, makes sense, but for trim it seemed to be a good fit. 2 1/2" baseboard, shoot it in the center, get some overspray on the walls that shouldn't show and the rest on the paper or subfloor. With a 310 or 410 it seems like I'm going to have a lot of overspray on the walls, and probably end up needing 2 or 3 coats.


Yes, the yellow one is for solvents. Wanted to show the different pieces. It goes on the back of the seat, not the tip. 

Use the 210 for base/casing, anything less than 6" it will work well. The 4" is at a 12" tip distances from the work piece. At 16" it will be about 6". When you are shooting base that is on the wall you won’t be able to spray 90° to the base, aim slightly below center. 

The 410 will work great on doors. Turn the gun sideways when you spray the edges, always spray the edges first. 

If you’re going to shooting a lot of doors, make some door rotators. 

Tom


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

That what happens anytime you get into something with a learning curve. You should pick it up pretty quick once you find what works.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

The problem is the Pro Classic!!!

That **** sags and runs like crazy. Worst paint to spray ever. Try shooting sherwins sologloss contractor indoor outdoor enamel. Or literally any other enamel paint.

Add airflow and lots of heat. You have to get the moisture out of the home.


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## rudman667 (Feb 12, 2020)

Metro M & L said:


> The problem is the Pro Classic!!!
> 
> That **** sags and runs like crazy. Worst paint to spray ever. Try shooting sherwins sologloss contractor indoor outdoor enamel. Or literally any other enamel paint.
> 
> Add airflow and lots of heat. You have to get the moisture out of the home.


No THAT is funny! Really, it is. About a year ago someone recommended Solo for trim, I had never used it. I went into the store and asked for a few gallons. The counter rep, who I've known for years, looked at me like I told him it was a stickup. I said, "What's the matter? Did I say something?" 

He says, "I've worked here 5 years and no one has ever bought a single gallon of Solo." Oh, OK. 

The solids in Solo are less that PC so it seems to me that Solo would run more. Anyone else have better luck with Solo than PC? I'm up for trying it, but the specs don't really bare out that it would run less.


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## SouthonBeach (Oct 18, 2012)

I also have that little X5 in my arsenal of sprayers. I like to use a 308 FFLP when spraying Proclassic on doors. Just turn up the pressure enough to not have the heavy tails. Also sometimes 2 light coats are better then 1 heavy coat. Like the other guys have said keep it 12”+ away from the surface.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

You may run into tip sheer issues using an x08. 

Tom


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

rudman667 said:


> No THAT is funny! Really, it is. About a year ago someone recommended Solo for trim, I had never used it. I went into the store and asked for a few gallons. The counter rep, who I've known for years, looked at me like I told him it was a stickup. I said, "What's the matter? Did I say something?"
> 
> He says, "I've worked here 5 years and no one has ever bought a single gallon of Solo." Oh, OK.
> 
> The solids in Solo are less that PC so it seems to me that Solo would run more. Anyone else have better luck with Solo than PC? I'm up for trying it, but the specs don't really bare out that it would run less.


I don't think solids have much to do with if a paint runs or not. 

Either way, try Emerald Urethane waterborne. Overpriced but easy to apply, sands to powder quickly, durable finish.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> You may run into tip sheer issues using an x08.
> 
> Tom


That can technically be an issue with almost all paints since usually the recommended tip size is a x15. I think Breakthrough went as low as x08 in the specs.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm using Scuff-X for all trim and doors now.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Golden view said:


> I don't think solids have much to do with if a paint runs or not.
> 
> Either way, try Emerald Urethane waterborne. Overpriced but easy to apply, sands to powder quickly, durable finish.


They don't. I use two products. MagnaMax and Krystal. MagnaMax is a precat and is thick and Krystal is a post cat and is very thin. MagnaMax has a solid content (volume) of 25% and Krystal is 37%. The MagnaMax resin is much thicker and will hold on a surface much better than the Krystal will.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

EricBrancard said:


> That can technically be an issue with almost all paints since usually the recommended tip size is a x15. I think Breakthrough went as low as x08 in the specs.


Pro Classic WB is 0.010-0.014.

Breakthrough sucks......

Tom


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> Pro Classic WB is 0.010-0.014.
> 
> Breakthrough sucks......
> 
> Tom


No it doesn’t. As a trim paint it’s awesome. As a cabinet paint, don’t use the new formula.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

rudman667 said:


> No THAT is funny! Really, it is. About a year ago someone recommended Solo for trim, I had never used it. I went into the store and asked for a few gallons. The counter rep, who I've known for years, looked at me like I told him it was a stickup. I said, "What's the matter? Did I say something?"
> 
> He says, "I've worked here 5 years and no one has ever bought a single gallon of Solo." Oh, OK.
> 
> The solids in Solo are less that PC so it seems to me that Solo would run more. Anyone else have better luck with Solo than PC? I'm up for trying it, but the specs don't really bare out that it would run less.


Have you used both? I have.

Also, solo costs about half of pro classic. That's why Sherwin doesn't push it. If you ask them for advice it's going to be the most expensive thing they can think of.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

EricBrancard said:


> No it doesn’t. As a trim paint it’s awesome. As a cabinet paint, don’t use the new formula.


Yes it does, the V50 they came out with a TDS saying not to use it on anything that gets touched often. They claim the new version V51(new version) is okay but that spots. 

I sent them samples of failures over 18 months ago, both spotting and getting soft from touching before they came out with the TDS. 

I have yet to hear back form them. I had to eat stripping and refinishing 250K worth of cabinets after they were installed and the home was occupied.

Builder asked me to try it because his supplier recommened it. Total fail. 

Tom


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> Yes it does, the V50 they came out with a TDS saying not to use it on anything that gets touched often. They claim the new version V51(new version) is okay but that spots.
> 
> I sent them samples of failures over 18 months ago, both spotting and getting soft from touching before they came out with the TDS.
> 
> ...


The 250VOC doesn't suck for cabinetry and the low VOC doesn't suck for trim. When you used the low VOC for the cabinets, had the "cabinet" use already been removed from the TDS or was this after they pulled the urethane but before they admitted it wasn't a cabinet paint?


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

EricBrancard said:


> The 250VOC doesn't suck for cabinetry and the low VOC doesn't suck for trim. When you used the low VOC for the cabinets, had the "cabinet" use already been removed from the TDS or was this after they pulled the urethane but before they admitted it wasn't a cabinet paint?


No, by a few months. The dealer talked it all up to the builder, then me when I picked it up. 

Issue the builder had with the KA+ plus I was using is we had to wait a day or two to get a product from Denver for a color we already had blended, a week for SW Denver to mix a custom color we hadn't used before. 

It does suck, no two ways about it. Any company that wont stand behind their product sucks, and so do their products. 

Tom


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Again, the 250VOC Breakthrough doesn't suck for cabinets. It sucks what PPG did. It sucks that you had to deal with that. The blanket statement doesn't fly that it and all the rest of the products suck in general. But I'd say PPG sucks for reformulating product and pushing it out the door then quietly removing a use that they specifically pushed prior.

The main reason I don't use BT anymore is because the 250VOC isn't readily available and everything else I used is BM so the color systems don't match up. Once I switched to Scuff-X, I had very little need to use anything else for trim and doors. I don't know how Scuff-X performs for cabinets, but I don't intend to find out either since any cabinetry I use is shop finished by the cabinet contractors.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

tjbnwi said:


> No, by a few months. The dealer talked it all up to the builder, then me when I picked it up.
> 
> Issue the builder had with the KA+ plus I was using is we had to wait a day or two to get a product from Denver for a color we already had blended, a week for SW Denver to mix a custom color we hadn't used before.
> 
> ...


Even when they back the paint it still sucks. If they admit it was them at best they'll give you more of the same product or your money back. Nothing for the labor will be included.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

EricBrancard said:


> Again, the 250VOC Breakthrough doesn't suck for cabinets. It sucks what PPG did. It sucks that you had to deal with that. The blanket statement doesn't fly that it and all the rest of the products suck in general. But I'd say PPG sucks for reformulating product and pushing it out the door then quietly removing a use that they specifically pushed prior.
> 
> The main reason I don't use BT anymore is because the 250VOC isn't readily available and everything else I used is BM so the color systems don't match up. Once I switched to Scuff-X, I had very little need to use anything else for trim and doors. I don't know how Scuff-X performs for cabinets, but I don't intend to find out either since any cabinetry I use is shop finished by the cabinet contractors.


Never liked PPG paints either, I'm sure them sucking skews my feelings towards all their products.

Poor business practices suck, makes everything about them suck.

I'm sure the client would have thought me and my businees sucked if I let them deal with PPG. But hell, what's having to eat 75K worth of refinishing? 

Tom


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

ProClassic is best with a brush only...imho.

Emerald sucks for darker colors...takes forever to cure. Sprayed some doors black and let sit for a week. Loaded them flat into my van and put furniture blankets between them. The blankets left an impression on the surface.

For doors I love KemAqua+. The surfacer is awesome!! 

Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Leo G said:


> Even when they back the paint it still sucks. If they admit it was them at best they'll give you more of the same product or your money back. Nothing for the labor will be included.


I know SW covered 5 million+ worth of repairs when it was discovered KA and KA+ did not play well. They covered all cost for any refinishing necessary.

This is how I know you can't mix the products. They never tested compatablity in the lab.

Tom


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

You're comparing Apples to Baseballs.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Leo G said:


> You're comparing Apples to Baseballs.


No I’m not. PPG listed cabinets as one of the applications for Breakthrough. Later they removed cabinets from the TDS and didn’t inform end users. 

Eric claims V-70 (250 VOC) is great for cabinets, PPG does not list cabinets in the TDS. If it is so great for cabinets, don’t you think they’d list cabinets in the TDS?

https://buyat.ppg.com/rep_pafpainttools_files/Pghpaints/TDB/V70-610.pdf

Sherwin Williams lists cabinets for KA+. Not only do they list cabinets, it has been tested to KCMA specs when used as a system. They also stand behind their products.

https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&lang=E&doctype=PDS&prodno=M64W522

I’d wager the finishes you use have been tested to meet KCMA. 

Tom


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Catalyzed cabinet paint to a general paint that's listed also for cabinets.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

So either they removed cabinets from the TDS because of the trouble with the other paint or they reformulated the 250 as well and pulled the urethane. The original 250 with the old label was listed for cabinets and I’ve never heard of any performance issues with it. The trouble came from the lower VOC product and the removal of the urethane component.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Catalyzed cabinet paint to a general paint that's listed also for cabinets.


There’s that. I don’t know why anyone would ever use Breakthrough for a high end new construction kitchen. Even the old version. More for a kitchen repaint in an occupied house.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Enamels for cabinets if you're using regular paint.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Wait, the 250VOC still does say idea[l] (typo) for cabinets.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Leo G said:


> Catalyzed cabinet paint to a general paint that's listed also for cabinets.


KA+ is not a catalized product.

Tom


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

EricBrancard said:


> Wait, the 250VOC still does say idea[l] (typo) for cabinets.


Screen shot from the TDS.

Tom


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> Screen shot from the TDS.
> 
> Tom


Look lower on the sheet. It's interesting, it looks like they edited part of the sheet and maybe forgot to change all of it. I found and older TDS and it lists cabinets and handrails in the top section.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Guess not. My bad

https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&lang=E&doctype=PDS&prodno=M64W522


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

EricBrancard said:


> Look lower on the sheet. It's interesting, it looks like they edited part of the sheet and maybe forgot to change all of it. I found and older TDS and it lists cabinets and handrails in the top section.


I not going to bother looking, I believe you it is there. 

What they’re telling us is the don’t even know........

Tom


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