# Windows not lining up with brick



## chrisd0608 (Jan 21, 2011)

I have been in commercial construction for 3 yrs right out of college. This is my first "large" (for me) job from the ground up and I have allowed my sub contractors to get me in a bad spot, primarily my framing crew. It is a wood framed building, pre built wood window openings with alum. window frames. As my mason began to run the brick he notified me that there are inconsistencies in the heights of the frames in relation to one another as bad as 3/8''. The cause is from variations in slab, variations in the premanufactured window openings, and the fact that it never registered in my mind to set a laser transit and check the sill height throughout the building... lesson learned. Anyway, having very little experience with masonry, is it possible for the brick courses to be "fudged" with the mortar joint to end up appearing right when the brick hits the head of the window frame or am I S.O.L. and looking at massive surgery to correct this? Sorry for the novel, but this is driving me nuts and I need to focus on solutions not causes at this point.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Re-set the windows. Anything else is just an abortion.


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## chrisd0608 (Jan 21, 2011)

You say reset the windows, the way these go in they have a sill pan that is set in a bed of caulk then screwed down tight to the window sill. There is no resetting the windows unless they are reset to a re-framed opening. The issue here is the building is dried in, sheathed, wrapped, and insulated... Its a mess


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

First, why didn't your mason contractor offer any ideas?

How close together are the windows? If there is a 8' or better spread in between windows you could run it out of level and 99% of people would never notice. Mark the heights at each window to make the top of the window frames. Pull the line from corner to corner. At the windows you will spot a brick to the height mark and twig the line to that height.

If this is a long wall with multiple windows you may not want to do it that way if the windows go up and down over and over again. Because when you look down the wall from the side the brickwork will be wavy.

If that is the case or if the windows are close together. You would want to make the brickwork hit the top of the highest window. The lower windows will have a gap from the top of the window to the bottom of the angle iron. Have your caulker put some backer rod in and caulk it.


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## chrisd0608 (Jan 21, 2011)

My mason said he could "make it work" but he wasn't sure if I would like it. The windows are spaced 7.5' apart across the front of the building where the public will see (my and my bosses primary concern). The center of the buliding has a 50' wide jut-out to offset the line of vision between the 4 windows on the right and the 4 on the left. I like the Idea of setting from top down from highest window, how will that effect the bottom coarse of the brick in relation to the window though? I fear that is what will show the issue.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

We deal with poor framing and out of alignment windows all the time on apartments.

Do what NJBrickie said and it'll fix your problems.

The mason will have to adjust his heights accordingly to catch the windows. Tell him thats part of the job.


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## chrisd0608 (Jan 21, 2011)

Great, thanks guys you have reduced my stress significantly..... on this job. I thought for sure this was not an issue that was never encountered, but my window sub talked like it was never ever encountered . It will never happen again on my job, that's for sure lol


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

chrisd0608 said:


> You say reset the windows, the way these go in they have a sill pan that is set in a bed of caulk then screwed down tight to the window sill. There is no resetting the windows unless they are reset to a re-framed opening. The issue here is the building is dried in, sheathed, wrapped, and insulated... Its a mess


unless im seriously not understanding something, you said the difference was 3/8s soooooooo you cant add a 3/8 piece onto the sill? if you've framed your window R.O. correctly you should be able to do this without making the window opening too small although it will be a tight squeeze. 

I'd rather take my time to adjust framing on the inside then have the brick layers pull 10 different planes to fix a 3/8s error:blink:.

hammer out the bottom or top plate of the R.O. and reset just like thom said.


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## chrisd0608 (Jan 21, 2011)

That would work if the windows were 3/8'' low, I actually did shim up on the ones that were low. The issue is the ones that are high and since the frames were manufactured by my truss supplier it is a bit more involved than just hammering the sill down.


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## masonlifer (Jun 10, 2007)

I have been dealing with a very similar problem on a house I have been working on. Eighteen foot radius with varying widths between 7 windows. The width was supposed to be the same and I had to field cut every jamb. Three floors. The window heights varied 1" from one end of the wall to the other and as much as 5/8" on adjacent windows. All the masonry is architectual precast. I am almost finished but it has been a challenge.Every piece had to be field cut because some idiot couldn't take the time to level all the window frames and keep the correct spacing between them.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Just spilt the difference and move on:thumbsup: no big deal.


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## chrisd0608 (Jan 21, 2011)

I feel your pain, I bought a laser transit this week. The 15 minutes it will take me to check behind my "pros" and the $1200 for the laser is well worth not having this happen again.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

chrisd0608 said:


> (my and my bosses primary concern).


Just curious...

You're a GC. Who's your boss?


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## chrisd0608 (Jan 21, 2011)

Sorry, I should make that clear in my profile. I am a project manager for a commercial GC


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

3/8ths and the brickie is having fits??

I think your problem may lie with him.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

chrisd0608 said:


> I like the Idea of setting from top down from highest window, how will that effect the bottom coarse of the brick in relation to the window though? I fear that is what will show the issue.


You should be able to grind the joints enough to get under the lowest frame and then bump up 3/8 to get to to top of the highest. Adding 1/16 will make it in 6 courses and even 1mm each course will make it in 10 courses. 
It may be better to go just to the highest frame as when you go over the top it will look straight.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

Lesson learned indeed. As NJ mentions, it is no big deal....sadly, it is not an uncommon problem. I do have one question.....what is a pre-manufactured window opening? You are fairly new to this however, and you will find that the subs that really think about how their work affects other trades are the ones you want working for you. I have a hard time understanding how someone could just set x number of windows just accepting the r.o.'s as "correct".......


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## chrisd0608 (Jan 21, 2011)

The window openings were manufactured by my truss supplier along with my truss package. It was 23 6'x6' openings that were already framed with jack and jamb studs and headers for a bit over $1000 delivered to the site. I purchased them with intention to cut down on labor and increase productivity. It bit me in the ass in the long run though. I think the root of the problem was that a I used a residential house framer to frame this wood building. I typically deal with steal stud framing and have not ever had issues with my metal framing crew, lasers are used for EVERYTHING.... not the case with the wood framer :no:


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

3/8 off at nearly 8 feet apart...i think you will be alright


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

I'm surprised your mason even mentioned this as a problem. It's fairly easy to hide on the exterior, I'd be more concerned about how it finishes out on the interior. Not that it's even noticeable their either though.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

Framer53 said:


> 3/8ths and the brickie is having fits??
> 
> I think your problem may lie with him.


good brickies work to 1/8" tolerances not so sure about you wood warriors.:whistling


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

I have laid brick that varied 3/8's in a cube. One particularly bad flavor from a few years ago had individual brick tapering more than a 1/4" from end to end (they were supposed to be modular.) 

I know of a brickie who was off the top of the main entrance door by 3/8" from one side to the other. (5')

The mason in the OP's situation was just looking to fluff his invoice. Probably underbid by 30% in desperation and is now just waking up. 

Don't worry lad, over time you will begin to recognize these hacks and avoid them. For now just consider it part of your post education expense.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

lukachuki said:


> good brickies work to 1/8" tolerances not so sure about you wood warriors.:whistling


Trust me, 3/8 is not a problem with a good brickie.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

Framer53 said:


> Trust me, 3/8 is not a problem with a good brickie.


yeah...your right of course....maybe even not to a crappy brickie.


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## Paul's (Oct 14, 2010)

Not for nothing, but did you ask your brickie what he thought those marks on the spacing ruler were used for? I've worked on garden apartment projects where the windows were 2" different from 1 unit to the next. A lot of head scratchin' and we made it work. Unless you put a level on it you'd never see it. Remember it doesn't have to be right ...only look right.:whistling


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

certain tolerances might be ok to work with in, but sometimes its better to just bite the bullet and start from scratch. If the brickie can do it let him do it, but this one problem creates another problem, which then creates another problem. start out right, finish right.

"No one has time to do right, but they have time to do it again"


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Paul's said:


> Not for nothing, but did you ask your brickie what he thought those marks on the spacing ruler were used for? I've worked on garden apartment projects where the windows were 2" different from 1 unit to the next. A lot of head scratchin' and we made it work. Unless you put a level on it you'd never see it. Remember it doesn't have to be right ...only look right.:whistling



Maybe I am not reading this correctly and without seeing it, it is hard to judge. But if the window heads were 2" off and you were laying a modular brick they are only 1/4"to3/8" off but the heads were one course off from each other. Being that a modular brick is usually at 2 1/4" tall. 

I hope you didn't run out of level 2". Besides looking horrible you would need to get back up that 2" or atleast up 1" and down 1" on the other side or you would have a hog in the wall (if using modular brick).

I have come across multiple openings in walls at various heights many times that would not work out for coursing at every opening. As a bricklayer you need to find out what will look best and is allowed. If an opening will have a flange or some type of cover around it and the one next to it will not, then the one with out is what you will work your heights to. Sometimes you may only need to rip 1/2" off of the brick over the opening, which may or may not look ok. If it is ok to add a soldier course over an opening that may save you at times also. I have laid a cut soldier over openings in the past to make things work in difficult situations. A 6 5/8" soldier is not that noticeable and it will take out a 1" difference in two different openings that are close together. Things will never be perfect but a good brickie can adapt and shine some [email protected]#t.


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## TRUTH BUSTER (Feb 18, 2011)

*Brick work*



chrisd0608 said:


> I have been in commercial construction for 3 yrs right out of college. This is my first "large" (for me) job from the ground up and I have allowed my sub contractors to get me in a bad spot, primarily my framing crew. It is a wood framed building, pre built wood window openings with alum. window frames. As my mason began to run the brick he notified me that there are inconsistencies in the heights of the frames in relation to one another as bad as 3/8''. The cause is from variations in slab, variations in the premanufactured window openings, and the fact that it never registered in my mind to set a laser transit and check the sill height throughout the building... lesson learned. Anyway, having very little experience with masonry, is it possible for the brick courses to be "fudged" with the mortar joint to end up appearing right when the brick hits the head of the window frame or am I S.O.L. and looking at massive surgery to correct this? Sorry for the novel, but this is driving me nuts and I need to focus on solutions not causes at this point.



Under the Windows there will be a brick sill if using brick this will hide under the window if the window is low enough to the ground maybe its up high and you can see under it , The top of the window can have brick laid as a soldier and then cut the top of the soldier to course this will look good and give the window some character and some what hide the problem.


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## Subia29 (Feb 18, 2007)

TRUTH BUSTER said:


> Under the Windows there will be a brick sill if using brick this will hide under the window if the window is low enough to the ground maybe its up high and you can see under it , The top of the window can have brick laid as a soldier and then cut the top of the soldier to course this will look good and give the window some character and some what hide the problem.


 
I was also thinking about that. I would like see a visual from the hack.


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## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2010)

chrisd0608 said:


> The window openings were manufactured by my truss supplier along with my truss package. It was 23 6'x6' openings that were already framed with jack and jamb studs and headers for a bit over $1000 delivered to the site. I purchased them with intention to cut down on labor and increase productivity. It bit me in the ass in the long run though. I think the root of the problem was that a I used a residential house framer to frame this wood building. I typically deal with steal stud framing and have not ever had issues with my metal framing crew, lasers are used for EVERYTHING.... not the case with the wood framer :no:


If you had the truss company supply the window frames how could it possibly be the framers fault? 

We get trusses that are 3/8" to 3/4" different in over all length sometimes. Especially when the truss profile changes on the same run. I would never ever think of having a truss company supply something like that.

The problem does not lie in your framer as much as it lies in you trying to cut corners and get the building built cheaper rather than paying your framer to actually frame the building.

What should your framer have shot in? What could he have adjusted on a messed up prefabbed wall section? Him fixing this problem would have costed much more than him just framing them himself. 

Did he ever say anything to you about using prefabbed widow openings?:whistling

I could see blaming him being a residential framer and in over his head if he missed timelines, paperwork and missed alot of hardware but because your supplied product was crap?


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## chrisd0608 (Jan 21, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> If you had the truss company supply the window frames how could it possibly be the framers fault?
> *IT Was not the framers fault.*
> We get trusses that are 3/8" to 3/4" different in over all length sometimes. Especially when the truss profile changes on the same run. I would never ever think of having a truss company supply something like that.
> *OK*
> ...


 The end result of the building came out fantastic. Thanks for your help.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Bastien1337 said:


> unless im seriously not understanding something, you said the difference was 3/8s soooooooo you cant add a 3/8 piece onto the sill? if you've framed your window R.O. correctly you should be able to do this without making the window opening too small although it will be a tight squeeze.
> 
> I'd rather take my time to adjust framing on the inside then have the brick layers pull 10 different planes to fix a 3/8s error:blink:.
> 
> hammer out the bottom or top plate of the R.O. and reset just like thom said.


Or just add something 3/8 to the top of the window if the windows cant be moved. 

The leadership on your project is lacking from what it sounds like. This is pretty basic stuff.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Here's a pic of an extension on a stone house being built along the road from us. Looks like the owner wants to keep the window and curtains as they were. They have started building up the footing's now, I wonder how the new masonry will line up with the old window. Can't see a lintel over it.


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## chrisd0608 (Jan 21, 2011)

JBM said:


> Or just add something 3/8 to the top of the window if the windows cant be moved.
> 
> The leadership on your project is lacking from what it sounds like. This is pretty basic stuff.


You are correct. I was not on the project full time, I had three others going on as well. The first mistake I made was leaving my subcontractors without full time supervision. Like I said, the building was turned over to the people that are leasing it, the owner is happy, they are happy, building looks great.... lesson learned.


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