# Pushing through state to get framers licensed



## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

Tinstaafl said:


> I hate to bust your bubble, but those professions require considerably more education than piecing lumber together with a nail gun. And it costs a _whole_ lot more to get there. The same applies to a lesser extent with plumbers and electricians (who, BTW, do not need licenses in my state).
> 
> The trades are no less honorable than "professional" occupations, but the simple fact is that they are less complex overall. My dad was a simple farmer, yet he was able to build a barn that still stands in great condition 60 years later. Try open heart surgery under those terms.


I think it depends too if we keep it to framers or the trade of carpentry. While I agree that the education (be it in a class or OTJ) is less, I think it is underestimated in society how much you do need to know to be a well rounded carpenter, and it is a lot more than banging lumber together with a nail gun.

Teacher is a four year degree with another year of practicum stuff here. My apprenticeship was four years, while there may be a difference I don't view it the same way you do I guess.


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

Tinstaafl said:


> I hate to bust your bubble, but those professions require considerably more education than piecing lumber together with a nail gun. And it costs a _whole_ lot more to get there. The same applies to a lesser extent with plumbers and electricians (who, BTW, do not need licenses in my state).
> 
> The trades are no less honorable than "professional" occupations, but the simple fact is that they are less complex overall. My dad was a simple farmer, yet he was able to build a barn that still stands in great condition 60 years later. Try open heart surgery under those terms.


as well- my point was not so much that a framer is on the same level as a doctor, but to use those as examples of regulated industries. What would those professions be like if there were no barriers to entry?


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

None of the trades are real hard to learn.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

All the significant trades of safety are accompanied by engineering


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Imakenice said:


> It has nothing to do with someone thinking the government will solve their problem, it has to do with the fact that when an industry is regulated, it can command a higher dollar. I make a decent living as a journeyman carpenter, but on average a J-man plumber or sparky can make more, just the way it is for the most part. I am thinking of the bigger picture economics of it.
> 
> IT IS REGULATED!!! IT HAS TO BE INSPECTED. IT HAS TO MEET CODE. They make more because there is a whole lot more to their job than yours. You cannot compare carpentry to plumbing or electrical. Again you are looking at a license as a way to charge more. It's silly.
> 
> ...


I can see how living in Canada would lend people to believe more regulation is better. Government is NEVER the answer.


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

Why wouldn't I compare carpentry to electrical and plumbing, they are 4 year trades up here. Framing is just one part of carpentry, you can get into concrete, finishing, residential, commercial. 

Plumbing and electrical are inspected too, they are regulated.

Anyways I'm not going to go back and fourth with this a whole lot, I'm fine to agree to disagree.

So you would be fine with a doctor being unregulated?

By the way the comment about Canada, that's fine, I kinda like socialism, I'm sure that will shock you. I like northern European economic models, free education, higher taxes but awesome state services. I have family over there, nice places I wouldn't mind living there. I am also an entrepreneur, so don't think I rely or blame someone else to where I go in life.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

While I'm certainly not lobbying for licenses, in the state of Texas, work in the county does not get inspected for code, Rob. I'm sure there are other states that are similar. I hire a third party inspection for additions and new construction in the county.

Anybody who thinks getting a license will keep illegals out of their trade is uninformed and not paying attention. Even in Texas legislature, who defies the federal government at every turn, agrees with the federal government about illegal labor. They show this through their actions. Everyone except blue collar workers wants illegal labor, basically.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> While I'm certainly not lobbying for licenses, in the state of Texas, work in the county does not get inspected for code, Rob. I'm sure there are other states that are similar. I hire a third party inspection for additions and new construction in the county.
> 
> Anybody who thinks getting a license will keep illegals out of their trade is uninformed and not paying attention. Even in Texas legislature, who defies the federal government at every turn, agrees with the federal government about illegal labor. They show this through their actions. Everyone except blue collar workers wants illegal labor, basically.


That's why I said IF it's inspected, there is no need for a license.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Imakenice said:


> Why wouldn't I compare carpentry to electrical and plumbing, they are 4 year trades up here. Framing is just one part of carpentry, you can get into concrete, finishing, residential, commercial.
> 
> Plumbing and electrical are inspected too, they are regulated.
> 
> ...


Okay, let's break this down. The TOPIC is FRAMERS. So get back on topic.

Second, we are talking about America, not Canada. You really have no say in the matter concerning the OP. You cannot apply your experience here. I wish we would adopt Mexico's illegal alien policy and I would even settle for Canada's.


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

OK well I've had about enough of this.. I could ask if you live in the same state as the OP but i'm not going to bother..

anyways you can get right back on topic, as you are now speaking of the subject of illegal alien control...


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Imakenice said:


> Why wouldn't I compare carpentry to electrical and plumbing, they are 4 year trades up here. Framing is just one part of carpentry, you can get into concrete, finishing, residential, commercial.
> 
> Plumbing and electrical are inspected too, they are regulated.


My understanding is that Canada has apprenticeship and journeyman type programs, same as here in US of A - "Red Seal" comes to mind.

Also, by and large, I'd expect that there would be a "framing inspection" by the local code authority - whether by staff of a municipality, or 3rd party company.

So, in what way would an additional license provide benefit to the state, or consumer, or building company?

In other words, yes, I can see where you would anticipate the right to charge more as a result of licensing , but how does it benefit anyone else?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Imakenice said:


> OK well I've had about enough of this.. I could ask if you live in the same state as the OP but i'm not going to bother..
> 
> anyways you can get right back on topic, as you are now speaking of the subject of illegal alien control...


Sure, but you live in a different country. You have no working knowledge of our systems.

And the op listed illegal aliens as a big reason labor is so cheap. So it's right on topic.


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

Small Town Guy:

Yes, you are correct with the red seal

As well, correct with the inspections.

The difference as I see it is the plumber or sparky will have to have their journeyman's card, be a licensed contractor in that trade to pull a permit. For a building permit (carpentry) you do not have to have a trade license, just a local business license. The only places the journeymans card is required for carpentry is union and government jobs like a school district.

You can apply for the journeymans card with enough verifiable hours and write the exam, so an experienced guy can get it without having to go through the schooling.

I just think that if the process was similar to that of the mechanical trades, a contractor doing framing or any work requiring a building permit per say, would have to have a license verifying time in the trade and an ability to pass a written test, or gone through the schooling, then that would deter some of the overnight contractors, immigrant groups who come in and will do the job for half the square foot price, as I mentioned what happened in this area in some framing markets.

I'm not suggesting this is a perfect solution for all the problems including illegal labour, but I suggest that an industry with regulation as to who is doing the work, tends to be able to not have to deal with cutthroat low balling. I have met "contractors" who were TV salesman the week before and were laid off, for an example.

As to how it benefits anyone else? I guess it could give the public some assurance that the job is being done by someone who is experienced (although I understand reality could be different) and better for the economy as companies making more can contribute to the economy... Best I got


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Imakenice said:


> Yes, you are correct about the red seal.
> 
> As well, correct with the inspections.
> 
> ...


Real world example? Like others have said licensed trades still have the same problems. Nothing has really changed.


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Sure, but you live in a different country. You have no working knowledge of our systems.
> 
> And the op listed illegal aliens as a big reason labor is so cheap. So it's right on topic.


OK I just have to ask then: I agree the illegal labour is a problem as it is so cheap, and you will see it a lot with framing, drywall, painters.. 

do you see it a lot with plumbers? electricians? do these trades really have the same problems as say a drywall company or framing company will have had with being undercut by illegals? or just companies doing it for cheaper? here the E.I. framing companies, roofing companies, undercut established contractors and work for cheaper, you don't see it with MEC trades.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Imakenice said:


> OK I just have to ask then: I agree the illegal labour is a problem as it is so cheap, and you will see it a lot with framing, drywall, painters..
> 
> do you see it a lot with plumbers? electricians? do these trades really have the same problems as say a drywall company or framing company will have had with being undercut by illegals? or just companies doing it for cheaper? here the E.I. framing companies, roofing companies, undercut established contractors and work for cheaper, you don't see it with MEC trades.


Again, plumbing and electrical work is more technical in nature, and not nearly as easy for just anyone to do. Illegal immigrants tend not to be very high on the educational scale.

You might do better with calling your desire for barriers to entry what it really is: advocacy for a return to the guild system. :thumbsup:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

We have mostly non English as their first language doing most plumbing work out here, its California. It doesn't take a phucking rocket surgeon to rope a home with romex. It takes knowledge but I wouldn't go as far to say it is any more complicated then cutting a conventional roof and framing a home.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Rob, do you agree that it's possible for a framer to PHUCK up a new build and it still be completely up to code?

second question, did you see that video of the town home collapsing?


In my opinion, it wouldn't hurt to have to prove competency (like plumbing and electrical) before a guy is free to build the structure of somebodies personal residence.

If you would have seen the disaster I was asked to fix last summer (passed inspection) you would understand. It was an $800k POS.

That framing crew single handedly created a lifetime of issues for some poor homeowner.

The point is, disgusting hacks like that shouldn't be able to frame houses. 
(if you think Canada and USA are so different, you are dreaming)


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

Tinstaafl said:


> Again, plumbing and electrical work is more technical in nature, and not nearly as easy for just anyone to do. Illegal immigrants tend not to be very high on the educational scale.
> 
> You might do better with calling your desire for barriers to entry what it really is: advocacy for a return to the guild system. :thumbsup:


 
Yes, with the guild system a sense of craftsmanship left with it for the most part...

I'm not convinced that wiring a basic 2000 sft house is that much more complex than framing it.. if they had one guy who knew what he was doing, he could just tell the rest where to pull and staple the wires and nail the boxes.. I could see them doing it...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Residential electricians out here are not paid that well, we call them Ropers. I first heard that name from a commercial electrician. Commercial electricians are far more polished with knowledge then Ropers. Just to be able to bend pipe and run conduit is a huge leap from a residential electrician here in Cali.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You carpenters are sawdust drunk. You could teach anyone in a few weeks a few tricks and how to use a framing square and they would be able to figure 90% of any "complex" framing angles.
> 
> No way would you know half of the calculations, codes and regs that an electrician or plumber have to consider. Even the plans are wrong half the time.


What are you crazy?

If you think I could teach my plumber or electrician how to frame one of these houses in a couple weeks, who is the drunk one?

I literally read a book, then wired my basement. Were talking 1 hour of reading. 

The issue I have, is how easy it is for a hack to get into carpentry for hire.

I need a magnet sign on my door, a hammer, and a box of nails. Now I can frame a $800k home for someone. 

If a hack wants to get into electrical or plumbing, it takes a significant investment, and a reasonable amount of competence.
Sure there are bad licensed trades, doctors too. But IMO, plumbing and electrical on a residential is easier than framing a house, and it pays much better. The reason, is that it's not something someone just picks up as a fill in job, or side work between shifts. It's a career.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Gus Dering said:


> My pipe dream would be that the owner had some skin in the game and required them to only hire licensed and issued contractors.


Agreed.


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

framing is also more than just using a framing square.. have to know a lot of codes just like any sparky or plumber...


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I framed a basement for my Father in law years ago and wired it after reading a book also. Rob, you like to belittle the framers, but I would love to have you for a week on my crew to show you the "intelligence" required to frame a complicated house. Sure, the cookie cutter ones are fairly easy, but there are still many tips, tricks, nuances, put into play that only an experienced framer understands.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

And a lot of people can not do what framers do just because of how high up we have to work.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Plumbing, electrical, framing....I don't think any are more difficult than the other....every one remove their heads from their asses and get off the soapbox.


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

tntservices said:


> you carpenters are sawdust drunk. You could teach anyone in a few weeks a few tricks and how to use a framing square and they would be able to figure 90% of any "complex" framing angles.
> 
> No way would you know half of the calculations, codes and regs that an electrician or plumber have to consider. Even the plans are wrong half the time.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You carpenters are sawdust drunk. You could teach anyone in a few weeks a few tricks and how to use a framing square and they would be able to figure 90% of any "complex" framing angles.
> 
> No way would you know half of the calculations, codes and regs that an electrician or plumber have to consider. Even the plans are wrong half the time.


That post makes me believe you have never worked on a framing crew for any length of time, probably not even a summer.

Framing a simple room addition or some remodel framing isn't the same thing.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Sabagley said:


> View attachment 108084


I take it back you guys are more skilled than electricians and plumbers...you can make horsey shadow puppets! :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> That post makes me believe you have never worked on a framing crew for any length of time, probably not even a summer.
> 
> Framing a simple room addition or some remodel framing isn't the same thing.


I think that I may be projecting a bit here. I sat this morning thinking about it and have realized that I just get it. I aced geometry and all of my drafting classes. Compound angles and intersecting planes just make sense to me. I never saw the fuss. I got bored with framing. So no, I didn't do it for more than a season. There was no real future in it. Top scale sucked, the old timers were arseholes and I didn't really see myself lugging 30' 2x's up to the roof standing on the second floor wall.

So I do apologize. Forgive me framers for disparaging your trade. I do have great respect for those that do custom work and the more complex homes. I would also say that framers are some of the toughest in the trade having to deal with pretty much any weather and having to push through to get the job ready for the other trades.

Again, please accept my apology.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I think that I may be projecting a bit here. I sat this morning thinking about it and have realized that I just get it. I aced geometry and all of my drafting classes. Compound angles and intersecting planes just make sense to me. I never saw the fuss. I got bored with framing. So no, I didn't do it for more than a season. There was no real future in it. Top scale sucked, the old timers were arseholes and I didn't really see myself lugging 30' 2x's up to the roof standing on the second floor wall.
> 
> So I do apologize. Forgive me framers for disparaging your trade. I do have great respect for those that do custom work and the more complex homes. I would also say that framers are some of the toughest in the trade having to deal with pretty much any weather and having to push through to get the job ready for the other trades.
> 
> Again, please accept my apology.


Nothing really to add here, I just wanted to quote this before Rob removed it. I may frame it and put it above my mantle.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You carpenters are sawdust drunk. You could teach anyone in a few weeks a few tricks and how to use a framing square and they would be able to figure 90% of any "complex" framing angles. No way would you know half of the calculations, codes and regs that an electrician or plumber have to consider. Even the plans are wrong half the time.


How do you know what it takes to frame a whole home when you haven't done it yourself? Your not qualified to make this assessment


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> How do you know what it takes to frame a whole home when you haven't done it yourself? Your not qualified to make this assessment


You jumped on the bandwagon too late...try again next time.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

You dont control the bandwagon. I understand you would like this to just go away. I would to if I said something like that. You can't come on a contractor forum full of framers and talk chit about them and then choose when their comments are no longer valid. Your not qualified for that either.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Man, this place is like Melrose Place.......


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> You dont control the bandwagon. I understand you would like this to just go away. I would to if I said something like that. You can't come on a contractor forum full of framers and talk chit about them and then choose when their comments are no longer valid. Your not qualified for that either.


Nah, you can stir the pot, but I ain't biting. Either except the apology and move on or don't. Doesn't matter to me what you think I am qualified to say or not.

Personally, I don't think you are any more qualified to judge my qualifications than I am to judge yours.

And I am sorry that you arrived late to the party, but the fights over. :thumbsup:

So for all of you that say I never give up or say that I am wrong, I did and do and it's still not good enough for some.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

With this being a complex issue perhaps,there is not a one size fits all answer. The major Mid -West city I do a considerable volume of work in does require Mason contractors to be licensed. Does it make for a perfect world ? Does it have its pros and cons ? Absolutely,however it does lend a certain amount of credibility to the scope of the job.

Do I vote for more government involvement. A resounding no. Just possibly,and again it is not a fix all solution,may be for the framers do what some Masons have done. That is to self regulate and develop their own certification program. It may be a better solution than wait for the government to intervene either on a State or local level.


http://www.masoncontractors.org/certification/


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

fjn said:


> With this being a complex issue perhaps,there is not a one size fits all answer. The major Mid -West city I do a considerable volume of work in does require Mason contractors to be licensed. Does it make for a perfect world ? Does it have its pros and cons ? Absolutely,however it does lend a certain amount of credibility to the scope of the job.
> 
> Do I vote for more government involvement. A resounding no. Just possibly,and again it is not a fix all solution,may be for the framers do what some Masons have done. That is to self regulate and develop their own certification program. It may be a better solution than wait for the government to intervene either on a State or local level.
> 
> ...


I am all for self governing. The market fixes it's own issues, that's the way it should be. You create a certification process and then educate the public.


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am all for self governing. The market fixes it's own issues, that's the way it should be. You create a certification process and then educate the public.


:rockon::rockon::rockon:


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> I can do my own plumbing and electrical in an average home. My plumber or electrician couldn't frame the home from the ground up. That I guarantee you.



Maybe you're using the wrong electrician:whistling

Although nothing fancy, I framed my shop and home both. Let someone else do the plumbing on the house...wish I had done that myself too, or found a better plumber.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TxElectrician said:


> Maybe you're using the wrong electrician:whistling Although nothing fancy, I framed my shop and home both. Let someone else do the plumbing on the house...wish I had done that myself too, or found a better plumber.


Your saying because my electrician doesn't know how to frame a home I'm using the wrong electrician? That doesn't make any since what's so ever to me. My electrician shouldn't and doesn't need to know how to frame a home.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> Your saying because my electrician doesn't know how to frame a home I'm using the wrong electrician? That doesn't make any since what's so ever to me. My electrician shouldn't and doesn't need to know how to frame a home.


What I'm saying is that I would expect most competent tradesmen to have a basic idea how to perform most of the other trades. For me to be good at my trade, I need to understand how the entire project comes together.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TxElectrician said:


> What I'm saying is that I would expect most competent tradesmen to have a basic idea how to perform most of the other trades. For me to be good at my trade, I need to understand how the entire project comes together.


I agree, and can vouch for TX's multi talented skills. Nice home and shop, well built. 

It is an old school mentality, one I subscribe to. Learn to do it all atleast at a basic level.

That way I can hack my way through my own electrical and plumbing on my projects :jester::laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> I can do my own plumbing and electrical in an average home. My plumber or electrician couldn't frame the home FROM THE GROUND UP. That I guarantee you.


If I could highlight on my ipad I would highlight the part where I said "from the ground up" I could wire it from the ground up but he can't frame it from the ground up. That was the point I was making. Nowhere did I say he didn't have a basic knowledge of framing. He's a very competent electrician.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Basic knowledge is subjective. I have a basic knowledge of tonsillectomies but you probably don't want me pulling your tonsils out.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> I agree, and can vouch for TX's multi talented skills. Nice home and shop, well built. It is an old school mentality, one I subscribe to. Learn to do it all atleast at a basic level. That way I can hack my way through my own electrical and plumbing on my projects :jester::laughing:


I know by his posts he is very good at what he does, I wouldn't doubt for a moment he could frame a home. But it's not the norm for an electrician to know this. I have a lot of respect for TX. :thumbsup:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> If I could highlight on my ipad I would highlight the part where I said "from the ground up" I could wire it from the ground up but he can't frame it from the ground up. That was the point I was making. Nowhere did I say he didn't have a basic knowledge of framing. He's a very competent electrician.


Tx and my plumber GCd two story custom homes and did their own carpentry, and it was good work. Basic is not the word I would choose for those guys knowledge. 

Out here in the sticks most of us know more than one trade, although Tx knows more about carpentry than i do about electrical.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Could you imaging the chit we could all put together if we were all together doing projects? Providing there was no ***** slapping going on. :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Could you imaging the chit we could all put together if we were all together doing projects? Providing there was no ***** slapping going on. :laughing:


How would it be contracting without ***** slapping? Better off starting a quilting club.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> How would it be contracting without ***** slapping? Better off starting a quilting club.


What is it you call them a bunch of Nancy's? I love that, I call my guys that quite often now. It motivates them. Of course they just tell me to phuck off.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> What is it you call them a bunch of Nancy's? I love that, I call my guys that quite often now. It motivates them. Of course they just tell me to phuck off.


You slap someone out here its likely to be a serious fight to commence. :laughing:


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Jaws said:


> I agree, and can vouch for TX's multi talented skills. Nice home and shop, well built.
> 
> It is an old school mentality, one I subscribe to. Learn to do it all atleast at a basic level.
> 
> That way I can hack my way through my own electrical and plumbing on my projects :jester::laughing:


Did you just call me old?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I only slap those I think I can take. I'm a businessman, don't forget.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TxElectrician said:


> Did you just call me old?


Old school :thumbsup:

A lot of my subs and a few of my hands call me Old School as a nick name.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I only slap those I think I can't take me. I'm a businessman, don't forget.


Fixed it for ya. :thumbsup:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Fixed it for ya. :thumbsup:


Where is the fun in that? :whistling:


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Without wading into the original question, which is as much political as anything else, I'll comment that licensing itself won't necessarily change much. California has among the strictest licensing laws, but I'd guess that less than half of all framing subs are licensed, and less than half of all framing carpenters are legal employees.

Quality and pricing and licensing tend to travel together, but it's not clear what's the cart and what's the horse. Some contractors start off legit, but some start off illegal and after they've established a reputation for quality and the ability to charge higher prices, they realize they have something to lose and they get licensed. The hacks stay un-licensed and cheap and they'll stay that way as long as there are customers who don't understand or care about the risks.

Code enforcement, permit enforcement, employment law, insurance laws, and probably some other pieces need to be in place and working effectively if you want licensing to have the full effect that you want. Otherwise, it sometimes seems as if it's primarily a tax on the legitimate guys.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Where is the fun in that? :whistling:


The guy getting his ass whupped is always going to have a different story then the guy who did the ass whupping! 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sVSfcWUxu_Q


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks:

Just stumbled on this tonite, thought you could use it for reinforcing your pullout:

http://www.moneynews.com/MKTNews/Stock-market-recession-alert/2014/02/03/id/550641/?promo_code=16610-1&utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Californiadecks: Just stumbled on this tonite, thought you could use it for reinforcing your pullout: http://www.moneynews.com/MKTNews/Stock-market-recession-alert/2014/02/03/id/550641/?promo_code=16610-1&utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral


Thanks for that, I'm all dressed up with nowhere to go at the moment. Investing isn't as easy as it once was, that's for sure. I have to do something if I'm ever going to retire. The good news is my wife is getting a 6 percent raise to a whopping 125,000 dollars a year and will get 80% of her pay at retirement, for the rest of her life. So my retirement account is a bonus. The only reason I got it was pure pride. I can't let her retirement be all I had when I'm old. Even if she were to die before me ( god forbid ) I will get 60% of her wages until I die. I would like to personally thank the taxpayers of California for that. Oh I might mention one more thing, her retirement is insured twice in case Cali goes broke. The teachers Union has it insured by a bank that's to big to fail and we have private insurance as well.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> Thanks for that, I'm all dressed up with nowhere to go at the moment. Investing isn't as easy as it once was, that's for sure. I have to do something if I'm ever going to retire. The good news is my wife is getting a 6 percent raise to a whopping 125,000 dollars a year and will get 80% of her pay at retirement, for the rest of her life. So my retirement account is a bonus. The only reason I got it was pure pride. I can't let her retirement be all I had when I'm old. Even if she were to die before me ( god forbid ) I will get 60% of her wages until I die. I would like to personally thank the taxpayers of California for that. Oh I might mention one more thing, her retirement is insured twice in case Cali goes broke. The teachers Union has it insured by a bank that's to big to fail and we have private insurance as well.


How it ended up in this thread is beyond me tho...
Had CT search for your original thread, chose "post reply", and it ends up on this one:jester:

OK, carry on....:whistling


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## nailamatic (Nov 10, 2009)

I was a framer for 10 years. I have made a ton of money framing. I now work as a commercial superintendent bc I can't make it working for what the prices were in the 90's. Not with the cost of living where it's at. When Katrina hit it attracted national attention to this area and brought in illegals. Over the course of a few years I went from being a highly sought after framer to literally almost shut down bc of illegals that weren't here before. People would wait on me to frame their house is how good my reputation was. I didn't get in this to race to the bottom. My father-in-law is a plumber. His prices have done nothing but climb. And with every cost of living jump his dollar per fixture install jumps. Why? Bc illegals aren't beating his prices up? Why? Bc you have to have proper credentials to even get through board approval. Therefore licensing makes it harder for illegals to price gouge. I had a good living made. Things were going my way. I don't want to go do something else to make better money. This is what I know. I want my living back. I want the illegals out of my industry. And if more government regulation does that then bring it on. I'll glad take a structural design class/test, 4 hours of continuing education, prove insurance, post my company name and license on the vehicle and signage, pull my own permits if it means I can get back to making 2k or more a week.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Our state calls it "Cheat to Compete" 

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/GeneralInfor...tryBulletins2012/IndustryBulletin20120305.asp


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## Dmitry (Aug 23, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> I hate to bust your bubble, but those professions require considerably more education than piecing lumber together with a nail gun. And it costs a whole lot more to get there....


Holy moly, so I guess the 10 years I spent learning the trade, studying the roof cutting techniques, learning the ratios and formulae, can be summed up by just peicing lumber together with nail gun....wow

Well, that's how I bet most people see us though, we show up at jobsite grab the plan and there you go- nail A to B, cut C at 100" then nail it to F ... All day long.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Dmitry said:


> Holy moly, so I guess the 10 years I spent learning the trade, studying the roof cutting techniques, learning the ratios and formulae, can be summed up by just peicing lumber together with nail gun....wow


Obviously my statement was an oversimplification, but in essence... yes. Another oversimplification is that it generally doesn't take nearly ten years to become competent at a trade if you're able to go at it systematically.

Unfortunately, OJT seldom works that way, and that's how 90% of us get there.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I sure hope everyone that's sizing up our framing trade has at least framed a home, otherwise they are just guessing how easy it is. They are just a notch above the HO in their presumptions.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I sure hope everyone that's sizing up our framing trade has at least framed a home, otherwise they are just guessing how easy it is. They are just a notch above the HO in their presumptions.


Are you honestly saying that you never size up another trade that you have little hands on experience in, but have worked with and around them for years? 

I'll stay away from framing and use electrical. I have never wired an entire house, but I will gaurandamntee you that I know enough about the trade to size it up. And there is no way that the average HO has any where near the knowledge I have on the subject and I am well more than a notch above them.


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> I sure hope everyone that's sizing up our framing trade has at least framed a home, otherwise they are just guessing how easy it is. They are just a notch above the HO in their presumptions.



Agreed. The problem IMO is people who have some experience or even no experience in it pass judgement on it without really realizing all the factors in it. This goes for framing or carpentry in general, or whatever other trade. 

People think painting is easy. Sure, brushing and rolling can be picked up fairly easily. But get into high end work including finishing and spraying, this stuff takes more than a month to learn.

The problem is that when people have this perception, they are more likely to assume that it is an easy job that can be done easily for cheaper by cheap labour, they can master it in a few weeks, etc.

The result of this is many crappy built homes, and a move from craftsmanship to "workers" who don't know to check for square, etc, and are not qualified tradesman. 

Now the home owner is hiring some "handyman" to do it all, because that's what the perception is.


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

Dmitry said:


> Holy moly, so I guess the 10 years I spent learning the trade, studying the roof cutting techniques, learning the ratios and formulae, can be summed up by just peicing lumber together with nail gun....wow
> 
> Well, that's how I bet most people see us though, we show up at jobsite grab the plan and there you go- nail A to B, cut C at 100" then nail it to F ... All day long.


Yep.. I don't think I will stop learning about this stuff until I quit doing it.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Are you honestly saying that you never size up another trade that you have little hands on experience in, but have worked with and around them for years? I'll stay away from framing and use electrical. I have never wired an entire house, but I will gaurandamntee you that I know enough about the trade to size it up. And there is no way that the average HO has any where near the knowledge I have on the subject and I am well more than a notch above them.


We'll it obvious you have no idea when it comes to framing.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

JT Wood said:


> We'll it obvious you have no idea when it comes to framing.


Okay, if you guys want to continue to be small minded and keep harping on a subject go right ahead. I have moved on so should you. Let if go.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Guys, keep in mind that (from my perspective, at least) we're talking about general competency at a trade, not Olympic championship. If you can't be a competent framer after five years of decent OJT, you should probably think about another occupation.

"Competent" does not mean that you're a world-class expert who can do things no one else has even dreamed of. It just means that you can do a good job on a normal job. 

If you are an Olympic-class framer, you will be making the big bucks that "professionals" do, and this discussion won't be particularly relevant to you.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Okay, if you guys want to continue to be small minded and keep harping on a subject go right ahead. I have moved on so should you. Let if go.


For one you are the one who keeps coming back. 

the second thing, is in post #45 you said that electrical and plumbing is more complicated and in depth than residential Framing. You suggested in post 77 that given 3 weeks of training anyone should be able to frame a house.

obviously, you have no idea what you are talking about. 

Like a couple of us have said, we read a book for an hour and wired our basements.  I'd love to see an electrician even square a step down foundation after reading a book for an hour.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Tinstaafl said:


> If you are an Olympic-class framer, you will be making the big bucks that "professionals" do, and this discussion won't be particularly relevant to you.


I agree, the down side is there are probably 10 shacks that go up, for every 1 truly custom one. There is more supply than demand for olympians.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

JT Wood said:


> For one you are the one who keeps coming back.
> 
> the second thing, is in post #45 you said that electrical and plumbing is more complicated and in depth than residential Framing. You suggested in post 77 that given 3 weeks of training anyone should be able to frame a house.
> 
> ...


I don't keep coming back bringing up old chit. You are conveniently leaving out an important part of the story. The part where I appologized. 

And I am not going to touch your example. It's a strawman. It's just not apples to apples.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I don't keep coming back bringing up old chit. You are conveniently leaving out an important part of the story. The part where I appologized.
> 
> And I am not going to touch your example. It's a strawman. It's just not apples to apples.


Well, as long as you admit you were wrong. .....
:laughing:

Did I just win an argument on the Internet with TNT?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

JT Wood said:


> Well, as long as you admit you were wrong. .....
> :laughing:
> 
> Did I just win an argument on the Internet with TNT?


Wrong about projecting my experience on others and thinking that it should be easy for everyone, sure. But not that I feel framing is easier than electrical or plumbing. It's my personal experience.

And my apology was to all that I offended and upset. Not just one individual. But if it's that big of a deal to you I have no problem letting say you "won" an argument with me.


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## Dmitry (Aug 23, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> But not that I feel framing is easier than electrical or plumbing. It's my personal experience.


I guess we could all agree that being a laborer on a framing job doesn't require too much competence, I bet I would have the same attitude if I had quit after first summer.

( on a side note I was really good with geometry and trio geometry in high school, but I didn't even have an idea how clueless I was at the time)


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

One trade is not more difficult than any other period. The difficulty depends on the project.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> One trade is not more difficult than any other period. The difficulty depends on the project.


I could tick off another trade and say painting, but I won't. Ah crap I did it again.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I could tick off another trade and say painting, but I won't. Ah crap I did it again.


Sistine Chapel doesn't look to easy to paint.

Again, not the trade, it's the project.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> Sistine Chapel doesn't look to easy to paint.
> 
> Again, not the trade, it's the project.


It was a joke. 

However, I house painter didn't paint that an artist did. And you do not have to be an artist to be a house painter.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Wow, first the framers, and now you turn on the painters. 

Not making many friends are you?


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## RH*carpenter (Mar 24, 2014)

States or cities regulate workmen in one of three ways: First by requiring knowledge of his trade on the part of the workman. This generally means licensing, certification, or registration upon completion of an examination; Second by requiring supervision of his work by a qualified supervisor; Or third by both means combined.

By far the most common is the second option. For example, in Arizona where I live we have trade contractors, trade supervisors, and trade mechanics. Trade mechanics are not licensed, certified, or registered by the state. Trade contractors are required to be licensed. In the initial application process the person, firm, or corporation applying for the license must designate the name of the "qualifying party". The qualifying party is defined as the person who shall be the supervisor of the work done by the licensee. So for example we have plumbing contractors, plumbing supervisors, and plumbing mechanics. 

The purpose of the law is clear. Rather than having the workman himself be licensed, the state legislature decided it was enough to have his work done under the direct supervision of a qualified supervisor. The supervisor himself must have had a minimum of four years' "practical or management trade experience" in the trade to be supervised. 

Many years ago the city of Tucson had ordinance 693. In that ordinance electrical contractors were required to be registered and supervising electricians were required to be licensed. To obtain the certificate of registration the person, firm, or corporation applying for the certificate was required to designate the name of the licensed electrical supervisor in the application.

When states or cities require licenses of mechanics a distinction is made between journeymen and apprentices. Usually it is just the journeymen who must be licensed but some jurisdictions require apprentices to register as an apprentice. In those cases it is provided that such apprentices be taught by licensed journeymen. 

As a side note, whether it is called licensing, certification, or registration, if it is unlawful to follow the trade without it then essentially they mean the same thing.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RH*carpenter said:


> States or cities regulate workmen in one of three ways: First by requiring knowledge of his trade on the part of the workman. This generally means licensing, certification, or registration upon completion of an examination; Second by requiring supervision of his work by a qualified supervisor; Or third by both means combined.
> 
> By far the most common is the second option. For example, in Arizona where I live we have trade contractors, trade supervisors, and trade mechanics. Trade mechanics are not licensed, certified, or registered by the state. Trade contractors are required to be licensed. In the initial application process the person, firm, or corporation applying for the license must designate the name of the "qualifying party". The qualifying party is defined as the person who shall be the supervisor of the work done by the licensee. So for example we have plumbing contractors, plumbing supervisors, and plumbing mechanics.
> 
> ...


That's not at all how it's done here.


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## RH*carpenter (Mar 24, 2014)

Hello TNT

Different states or cities have differing regulations. I was born in Chicago and lived in Illinois for 33 years. I have been in Arizona for 31 years. Arizona has reciprocal contractor licensing agreements with California, Nevada, and New Mexico who have licensing laws like ours. Massachusetts has a CSL (construction supervisor license). It is more common than you think. 

Illinois has no statewide licensing except for plumbers. I found this by googling Illinois contractor licensing and searching links. Under Illinois law all plumbing mechanics must have a license including apprentices. Mechanic is a term that has been used for a very long time to denote workmen such as carpenters, plumbers, masons, and so forth. 

Illinois defines a plumbing contractor differently than Arizona does. Under Illinois law a plumbing contractor is a person, firm, partnership, corporation, or otherwise in which precisely one person is a licensed mechanic (not an apprentice). Such person or entity must also be registered with the state and furnish bonds and other requirements. Any plumber who is an employee of a registered contractor does not need to be registered but must be licensed. The name of the licensed mechanic who represents the plumbing contractor must post the license number on all vehicle advertising and all advertisements for work. There is an exception to being registered which I found quite amusing. If the person or entity who claims to be a plumbing contractor has a net worth of $100,000,000.00 dollars or more they need not register but they still must follow all the other licensing laws. I guess if you are worth 100 million dollars a bond is not necessary. I doubt if there are many plumbers with that kind of money.

As I stated in my previous post, Arizona law requires a plumbing contractor to designate the name of the supervisor in the application. And under Arizona law a plumbing contractor is either the property owner or an agent of the property owner. Arizona law states that no plumbing contractor shall act as an agent of the property owner without a license. Our lien laws also designate plumbing contractors as agents of the property owner. Illinois law does not define a plumbing contractor as an agent.

The term "contractor" has different meanings. In one sense both parties to a contract are contractors. Here in Arizona if a property owner contracts with a plumber to perform labor, the property owner is the contractor and the plumber is the mechanic. It is the property owner who is subject to the contractor licensing laws unless he falls within one of the exceptions.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RH*carpenter said:


> Hello TNT
> 
> Different states or cities have differing regulations. I was born in Chicago and lived in Illinois for 33 years. I have been in Arizona for 31 years. Arizona has reciprocal contractor licensing agreements with California, Nevada, and New Mexico who have licensing laws like ours. Massachusetts has a CSL (construction supervisor license). It is more common than you think.
> 
> ...


I understand that not every state is the same. Electrcians abd HVAC are also required to be licensed to pull permits just not through the state.

But you said all that for what reason?

I think we can all agree that when we say contractor we are taking about the one doing the work, beyond that, it's just semantics.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I could tick off another trade and say painting, but I won't. Ah crap I did it again.


Sure anybody can paint a house. The same can be said for most any construction trade.

But to do it professionally day in day out is a whole different ballgame! :thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Sir Mixalot said:


> Sure anybody can paint a house. The same can be said for most any construction trade.
> 
> But to do it professionally day in day out is a whole different ballgame! :thumbsup:


I agree...it was just a joke. :thumbsup:


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## RH*carpenter (Mar 24, 2014)

Respectfully I disagree with your opinion that a contractor is the one doing the work. The precedent to Arizona law for trade contractors is the case of City of Milwaukee v. Rissling, 184 Wis. 517, 199 N.W. 61. In such case the defendant was convicted of violating a Milwaukee ordinance requiring electrical contractors to be licensed. The defendant claimed the ordinance was unconstitutional because it failed to license the men who did the work - the journeymen electricians. The Supreme Court of Wisconsin stated that there were contractors on the one hand and journeymen on the other. The journeymen were the ones who did the work and the contractors did not. Under that ordinance every person, firm, or corporation engaged in business as a contractor was required to designate the electrical supervisor. This is precisely what Arizona, California and others do for electrical and other trade contractors. This decision was affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court. So it is not a matter of semantics. In Arizona any number of journeymen electricians or plumbers can form a firm or corporation and none of them are required to be licensed. 

Consider this. Suppose a journeyman plumber works alone as an individual just as there might be a lawyer or architect who is a one man outfit. Now consider that there might be a one man outfit that is a contractor. He designates himself as supervisor. One performs labor. The other supervises. Each is a one man outfit.

If you look at the federal Miller Act for public projects you will see mentioned contractors, subcontractors, and mechanics. Mechanics are the ones who do the actual work.

I might add that Arizona law does not require property owners to hire contractors. They can hire a person, firm, or corporation directly to perform the labor.

It is precisely the lien law that proves that there are no persons who perform labor connected with a contracting business. If they were it would not be possible for a property owner to hire them directly.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RH*carpenter said:


> Respectfully I disagree with your opinion that a contractor is the one doing the work. The precedent to Arizona law for trade contractors is the case of City of Milwaukee v. Rissling, 184 Wis. 517, 199 N.W. 61. In such case the defendant was convicted of violating a Milwaukee ordinance requiring electrical contractors to be licensed. The defendant claimed the ordinance was unconstitutional because it failed to license the men who did the work - the journeymen electricians. The Supreme Court of Wisconsin stated that there were contractors on the one hand and journeymen on the other. The journeymen were the ones who did the work and the contractors did not. Under that ordinance every person, firm, or corporation engaged in business as a contractor was required to designate the electrical supervisor. This is precisely what Arizona, California and others do for electrical and other trade contractors. This decision was affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court. So it is not a matter of semantics. In Arizona any number of journeymen electricians or plumbers can form a firm or corporation and none of them are required to be licensed.
> 
> Consider this. Suppose a journeyman plumber works alone as an individual just as there might be a lawyer or architect who is a one man outfit. Now consider that there might be a one man outfit that is a contractor. He designates himself as supervisor. One performs labor. The other supervises. Each is a one man outfit.
> 
> ...


We should probably change the forum name.

But you obviously are trying to impress everyone here as a new guy and your knowledge, but your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to what term we use on this site to discuss contractors. When we say contractors we are speaking about the company that is hired to do the work. I don't think that a single guy on here, other than you, needs to define it any further.


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