# Replacing lead main



## Wills03 (Mar 13, 2006)

One of my rentals has a lead water main that has 2 holes in it near the meter that previous owner patched with scraps of rubber and hose clamps. We have excavated to the curb box to replace with copper. The city will only replace from main to curb box if it is bad so we are stuck with cutting the lead just past the stop and going with copper from there to meter only. Question is how to connect the copper to the lead? Was the lead sweated to the stop originally. City is no help at all.

Thanks for any help.


----------



## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*You're going to need a plumber.*

*The city won't turn the water on without a licensed plumber & permits for the work.*


----------



## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

It was most likely a wiped joint. 

Lead work is nothing to learn on. Its practically a lost art in most parts of the country younger. I would recommend you get someone with experience out there to make the repair.

Your costs are deductible since this is rental property. 

This is nothing like PVC or ABS or PEX. You can screw it up royally even if you think you've done everything properly.


----------



## Wills03 (Mar 13, 2006)

Double A

If I cut the lead 6" or so past the stop is there no way to join copper to it other than a wiped joint. The chances of finding an old plumber with experience in this is slim to none.

Sure would be nice if the city would step up to the plate and replace their portion of pipe and a flared stop. We would be from the stop to the meter and backfilled in an hour.

So much for the lead fear.


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Wills03 said:


> So much for the lead fear.


What lead fear?


----------



## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

The fear that Lead water pipes are gonna kill you or your tenants.


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

rbsremodeling said:


> The fear that Lead water pipes are gonna kill you or your tenants.


You do know that there was no real research done to support that theory right? All of their info was a projection of lead amounts taken from samples of lead paint consumption.

The chances of lead poisoning from a water service is about the same as knocking down the Sears Tower with a 4 oz. ball peen hammer.


----------



## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> You do know that there was no real research done to support that theory right? All of their info was a projection of lead amounts taken from samples of lead paint consumption.
> 
> The chances of lead poisoning from a water service is about the same as knocking down the Sears Tower with a 4 oz. ball peen hammer.


I know this I have a lead service in my newly remodel house. I do have a water filter on my 3K refridgerator just in case though:thumbsup:


I think its bunk myself but water service replacements run 3-10K around here.


----------



## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

I know that if you run Middle Sis's
water on a real lead test kit
1st thing in the morning, it'll turn
color.
After the water's been running a bit
it's cool.


----------



## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Never seen a lead water service here.


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

rbsremodeling said:


> I know this I have a lead service in my newly remodel house. I do have a water filter on my 3K refridgerator just in case though:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> I think its bunk myself but water service replacements run 3-10K around here.


I'm in more danger of lead fumes from melting the lead to wipe a joint on a lead water service than I ever am from the service itself. The last wiped joint I did was on my water service last summer.


----------



## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

I would not even know how to do a wiped joint for a water service, interesting, I can't see how it could hold up to the pressures given.


----------



## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

neolitic said:


> I know that if you run Middle Sis's
> water on a real lead test kit
> 1st thing in the morning, it'll turn
> color.
> ...


The city sent out a memo to like 50k telling people to run the tap water for 2 mins I think before drinking it:blink:


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I would not even know how to do a wiped joint for a water service, interesting, I can't see how it could hold up to the pressures given.



A wiped joint is twice as thick as the pipe it is joining at the joint point. There is no good way to describe how to make a wiped joint, I have looked for pics in the past with little luck, the only way I can convey would be to show you.


----------



## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Long ways to Chicago :laughing: But now I have seen wiped lead bends here for the closet flange, never done one myself.


----------



## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> A wiped joint is twice as thick as the pipe it is joining at the joint point. There is no good way to describe how to make a wiped joint, I have looked for pics in the past with little luck, the only way I can convey would be to show you.


Watched Grandpa do it.
The pipe looks diseased. :laughing:


----------



## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

Published 1910 I'm sure the illustrations will look familier to some of us.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ke...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

neolitic said:


> Watched Grandpa do it.
> The pipe looks diseased. :laughing:


He was using an old candle then.


----------



## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> He was using an old candle then.


White gas.


----------



## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*I'm with Ron here..have only found extremely old lead pipes under crawspaces here.*

*I don't wanna get into a debate or semantics, but to even hiint at using lead on potable here would get a very adverse reaction from anyone in the biz.*


----------



## Wills03 (Mar 13, 2006)

Bones 

Do they go from 3/4 K soft copper which is what we use around here to lead and what are they kinda of like a compression fitting.

Have you used them long and what do you think of them overall as far as ease of use ect.

You are a lifesaver I hope once I cut the line I am commited.

Thanks a bunch


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

bones said:


> We use mac-pak lead compression service couplings when
> we have to hook back to lead lines. I know A.Y. McDonald
> makes them. You will need a piece of your lead line to size it
> if you can find anyone that carrys them.


In most areas those are only allowed for above ground use.


----------



## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

What is the reason you can not replace the entire line?


----------



## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Ron The Plumber said:


> What is the reason you can not replace the entire line?


How did we miss the most obvious question to ask the op:blink:


----------



## Wills03 (Mar 13, 2006)

Ron

I can only replace from house to curb stop. City has to replace from curb stop to street main and they refuse. Thus I am stuck with cutting lead on my side of curb stop and finding someway to connect there. Mac pacs sounded perfect for about 10 min but obviously they will be 4' underground so I still need more info.


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Wills03 said:


> Ron
> 
> I can only replace from house to curb stop. City has to replace from curb stop to street main and they refuse. Thus I am stuck with cutting lead on my side of curb stop and finding someway to connect there. Mac pacs sounded perfect for about 10 min but obviously they will be 4' underground so I still need more info.


What more info do you need that has not been provided?


----------



## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

OK I'm confused here, here we replace from the meter to the house, we don't care what the city does on there side, why are you concerned about the city side of it, maybe I don't know what your responsible for there. You say you are working on your side of the stop/meter or what ever your talking about, I still can't see why you can't run an all new service, be it, copper or pex what ever your allowed to use. Maybe I missed something you said back aways.


----------



## bones (Mar 1, 2006)

Thats all the city uses around here for service connections.
When they tap a main for us they leave us a compression 
fitting to hook our copper to.
As for the lead paks they are copper x what ever size your
lead is. They may even come lead x iron pipe thread.
We have used them for a long time without any issues
but it does use a rubber gasket for a seal. The city also uses 
the lead paks around here. 
Check A.Y. McDonalds web site


----------



## Wills03 (Mar 13, 2006)

Killer


If the mac pacs will hold up underground. 

As I mentioned before the city does not care what I do, but I don"t want a geyser come mid January when it is 10 degrees and I am out of town.


----------



## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Ron The Plumber said:


> OK I'm confused here, here we replace from the meter to the house, we don't care what the city does on there side, why are you concerned about the city side of it, maybe I don't know what your responsible for there. You say you are working on your side of the stop/meter or what ever your talking about, I still can't see why you can't run an all new service, be it, copper or pex what ever your allowed to use. Maybe I missed something you said back aways.


I Think he wants to have the service replaced all the way from inside meter to the street. (city side) the whole she bang.

But can only legally go the curb box and he can't get the city to replace their part from the curb to the street.

They told him tuff luck


----------



## Wills03 (Mar 13, 2006)

Ron


See 32, 34,37


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Wills03 said:


> Killer
> 
> 
> If the mac pacs will hold up underground.
> ...


Trusting anything that relies on a rubber seal in ground conditions subject to freezing conditions is up to you, I personally would not do it.


----------



## Wills03 (Mar 13, 2006)

RBS sums it up for newcomers to the thread


----------



## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Are you saying that you can't
connect copper to your side
of the curb/cut-off valve?


----------



## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

City will do what ever they like, I call them when ever they have an old 1/4 turn stop seized up, but like I say who cares about the city side, as long as you can connect to the house side meter nipple, from there run what ever you like, dealing with a unfamiliar product not knowing how to deal with it. will give you a 50/50 chance you will not do it right and into a frustrated state if it goes bad.


----------



## bones (Mar 1, 2006)

How does the lead hook to the valve?
Is it iron pipe thread? or a union nut?


----------



## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

This is like the Whose on 1 first base joke:w00t:


----------



## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

OK so your meter is in the house, what is the connection at the city stop? Threaded? How about a picture?


----------



## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

I think the easiest solution for the op is to move to DC:w00t:


----------



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

bones said:


> How does the lead hook to the valve?
> Is it iron pipe thread? or a union nut?


It's a wiped joint on a swaged corp stop.


----------

