# Shoddy Footings What to do?



## paul6 (Apr 30, 2010)

*The Story:*
So I am a building a new home in upstate NY, I had the lot is no doubt very tight. Just having the footings poured I am now scared to go to walls because I don’t feel the job was done very well, My real questions is do I RIP them out and start over or patch? Will a patch be permanent? How do I know it will do the job? The staging and aggravation to rip out what’s there would be a large added expense (that MAYBE I could get the foundation company to participate in but doubtful, chances are they would walk away from the minimal money they have in labor for doing just the footings thus far, and legal proceedings would likely be way more work the necessary) on top of that the added delay to construction and dealing with the already starting to fail exaction walls ( due to minimal setbacks) and neighbors loss of use of there driveway (not so happy about that)

*The Facts:*
-2 story home 62x22
-Footings where to be 10” thick and 16” wide with 2 rebar
- Brown clay is what the footings are on
-the grade wasn’t great but could have been remedied pre pour

*The Issue:*
-instead of not wanting to do the job because of the poor grading they just formed it and poured
-Instead of shoveling out the high spots they poured anyway

*The Result:*
-Variable footing thicknesses I would say about 15% is actually 10”, and the rest bounced around but stays close to 7-8” and the major concern is one spot (that i dug under to make sure it wasnt just the edge) is all the way as thin as 4-5”.

*The Solution?: *
-I have talked to many people and bottom line is they did a poor job, but is it worth ripping it all out? The stone has already been put in the middle for the slab adding to difficulty to pull it out or see if there are any other 4” spots?

-I have gotten a ton of Ways to “band-ade or remedy” it but should I do that? Friends, engineers, other contractors telling me it SHOULD be ok, but I can’t keep a non guilty conscious. Will it still be structurally sound? Is it worth spending the 5k to start over?

I am totally stressed out here going back and forth on what to do any and all advice will be greatly appreciated!

Because this is my first post i cant link to images, and can only upload 3, but i will email or pm anyone a link to more images is they would like


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Hey Paul, You've found the right place to pose your questions. As a friendly heads up please do an intro in the introduction section and fill out your profile including area.

We get a lot of homeowners who try to get questions answered here thus the protocol.

There are GREAT guys here who will be able to help you!

Welcome to CT:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## dave_dj1 (Mar 16, 2010)

rip those SOB's out and do them to your satisfaction, that is the ONLY way to give you peace of mind.


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## bearcat (Mar 24, 2010)

seems to me there is shared responsability here. it's partly your fault for not making sure the subgrade was ready for the footing crew. but the footing crew should not have proceeded with something they knew was wrong. maybe you can split the cost of removing the footings and pouring back correctly. problem is with the gravel in place, you can't fix the entire grade, so your draintile is not going to be correct either.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Rip those puppies out or get a engineer to spec underpinning. 

Seems bizarre, was there no pre pour inspection to catch this. :whistling

And, if they never placed bar I would definately rip em out regardless


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## tang (Jan 5, 2009)

Was your concrete guy licensed? If not shame on you.:no: If he was licensed you have some recourse thru your state licensing board. Looks like a hack!


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The sub will only work to his contract, although he should have just pulled off until the grade was done right (assuming you as GC were responsible for the dirtwork). You are also responsible pre-pour for inspections, both governmental and as a GC.

Judge Judy says rip it out at your expense and hire a good concrete company next time.


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## jshuatree (Feb 21, 2010)

rip out ...next time CHECK REFERANCES. And next time instead of saying "GOD THAT SOUNDS HIGH" say "hey that sounds great when can you start." and ask questions {not stupid or greedy ones} but ones like "would you fellas like something to dring" or "can I get you guys anything" if you follow these rules and don't try to save so much money you'll probably get work that is good and priced reasonably and presto there':clap:s your home


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

8" is pretty standard around here for a house footing under normal conditions. Is this going to be a block foundation? How long is the section that is only 4"-5"? If this is going to be a block foundation you might want to run it by an engineer to see if you could span the thin spot with concrete lintels. If the span is say 4' you could lay two 64" lintels in place of the block. But I would get approval from an engineer first to sleep better at night and to take liability off of you.


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## frankster (Apr 8, 2010)

If the footings are spec out for 10"x16" then thats what they are supposed to be. If the foundation guy you hired did this hack job then he is responsible to make it right. At the same time you are just as responsible for not keeping an eye on your project. I would also assume that the footings should have been inspected prior to poor and this should have been failed by any building inspector with a set of eyes and a brain. 

As far as patch jobbing these footings thats just being a hack on top of a hack. Tear em out and do em right.


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## paul6 (Apr 30, 2010)

Thanks for all your responses,

to answer a few questions,

-There is no license in NY to pour concrete
-they do have rebar in them
-the footing forms where inspected( by the city inspector) pre-pour but obvoulsy he didnt seem to care or do a very good job
-without a doubt should have been on site more, but on the same note you hire a professional to do a professional job. 
-I do not have a level and laser to have tested the sitework contractors work, I wish the concrete guy refused to work if it was an issue but he didnt speak up he just went about his day.
-the walls will be 8" poured concrete not blocks
-he was not the cheapest and came well recommended


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Your issue is with the sitework contractor then, although it is still your ultimate responsibility. An inspected footing is GTG so far as the concrete contractor is concerned.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

This is my guess as to what happened....concrete crew shows up, sets forms, rebar, spreaders, and gets ready to shoot grade...Starts setting grade stakes (or maybe nails in forms)....finds out WTF! "the subgrade is all efffed up" Possibly boss is not there, maybe just one of his guys that knows how to use a laser....Decide, "not horrible, let's pour"....The inspector would rarely pick up a couple inches over 60 feet if the stakes were not in yet, he is possibly just looking for rebar and forms that look right, which they probably did pre-stakes....They pour, not wanting to tell the boss that they just wasted 2-3 hours on crappy sub grade....flash forward..... These footings are not great...but tearing out seems drastic....this is a house, no? Many places you can pour walls with no footing whatsoever....If this is undisturbed soil, and the walls are 8" poured, I for one don't think you will have any problems at all. I see houses every week that are sitting on far less, that have been standing for 200 years....maybe no longer level, but they used to start by throwing a bunch of rocks around the perimeter, then start laying brick foundations....I say build....and buy your excavator a laser level for Christmas......


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## Moneypit (Dec 1, 2009)

I can't be sure, but from the pictures, it looks like there is no key way in those footings. Am I seeing that right?


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## Moneypit (Dec 1, 2009)

I dont understand why some people are blaming the excavators. Since when do you pull up to a job to form/pour a footing and not have to do the final leveling? I have never come across such a job site. According to the information given, all they had to do was dig another 6" max at some points. Thats not a big deal. This is 100% the concrete crews fault. My guess is they scheduled the truck too soon and didnt have time to level the subgrade.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

6 inches isn't "leveling", it is excavation. The only person to carry legal blame is the GC. That is why he gets the big bucks, and if the contracts are good, then he can indemnify the subs. Subs, read your contracts.


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## CARPENTERDON (Jun 30, 2005)

If you had an inspector "pass" the forms for footings, then the SNAFU is on the inspector. That's why there are inspections! The excavation should have been inspected prior to the forms being set. On the other hand, the concrete contractor should've stepped up to the plate and fixed them without you having to say a word. He knew they weren't properly poured! 

If you have an architect, contact him/her and have them contact the contractor. They (architects) can usually get these things resolved.

I would definitely call the inspector and make him aware of the problem.

Don't let anybody tell you that they are fine the way they are. . .there NOT!!  They need to be ripped out and re-poured. . .PERIOD!


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

tang said:


> Was your concrete guy licensed? If not shame on you.:no: If he was licensed you have some recourse thru your state licensing board. Looks like a hack!


No state licensing in NY since the 50's.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Gentlemen:

I suspect that this house is being built in an area that has little or no inspections.

Yes, NY has areas like that. 

Yes he needs to remove and start again.:thumbsup:


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

I never understood 10" by 16" footings , especially for poured concrete. On good soil with 2 rebar continuous, I wouldn't be too concerned with some 6-7" footing, but 5" is way too cheap & ignorant IMO. Are there 3" or 4" bleeders intersecting the footing? If so, what's left under them, an inch?

Here's the other problem I see: You mention that there is inspection on this job, so I assume there is some applicable code. Every code I've heard of requires 4" minimum footing on each side of the wall. So these 16" wide footings aren't going to be wide enough, unless the footings are perfectly laid ou (no way in hell) or the wall contractor keeps blowing the inspector.


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

my only question is,as the GC,where the hell were you when they were setting forms and getting ready to pour?
maybe things are different in your part of the world,but where i live and work.i dont think i have ever laid a block foundation and the GC not been there or at least come by and inspected before i was done.and ive laid alot of foundations.

"-I do not have a level and laser to have tested the sitework contractors work"
you dont carry a level?and your a GC?
so i would say that you should have to shoulder as much of the burden as your concrete boys.i would get with them and try to work out a plan to get the footers ripped out and done right.otherwise,bite the bullet and rip them out and hire a new set of guys to do them and MAKE SURE you are there to watch them like a hawk.

and jshutree,WHAT!!!?dont ask stupid questions,but ask them if they want a drink?or if you can get them something?:blink:
im sorry jshutree,but the only part of your post that made sense is rip them out and get references.


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## paul6 (Apr 30, 2010)

There is no doubt that being the GC i am partially to blame, where i do not have a level or cna tell a variation in grade, i did check to make sure everything was in place rebar etc, and did catch this before walls, But certainly have learned a future lesson.

The concrete guy should have pulled off and make notice and asked for additional money if he didn't feel the grade was adequate so i could have gotten the site guy back.

But it looks like the consensus is the same Rip them out and start over?

Its not really the money (maybe an additional 4-5k not that i would want to deal with that) it is the headache involved with doing ripping them out in an already critical site location. and loosing more time,

but it seems like no one is all the comfortable repairing??


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Get an independent engineer out there, for maybe a around a $1000.00 he can come up with a fix that will not cost too much or take too much time.

But for God's sake, don't show him you are anxious about the footing, he may take that as you wanting it to be over-engineered and he will design a fix accordingly.

Andy.


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## CTGORE (May 1, 2010)

*Footings?*

Footings were to be 16" wide and 10" deep?
Perimeter (exterior walls) masonry block 8x8x16?
Two story residence so are the masonry walls full height or stem walls?
Where are the vertical cell bars? 4' on center? Jamb bars at windows and door openings?

I am located in No. Calif. and I would have had a soils engineer prepare a soils report with bearing values and run an expansion index on the clay soils to determine expansiveness of the clay and foward to a structural engineer for a footing design.

I would have overexcavated and recompacted the building pad 5' outside of the perimeter if possible to a depth of 24", then excavated footings 12" wide and 18" below lowest adjacent grade (pad grade) and not formed and poured the footings but poured into the footing excavations.

I would have used 2-#4 bars top and bottom and 1-#5 bar vertical for grouted cells and 2-#5 bars vertical for jamb bars at openings and corners.

If the first floor is a slab 8" above (pad) grade I would have installed 6 courses of masonry block, grouted it, installed 3/4" rock 3" thick, 1" - 2" sand, visqueen and 4" slab.

I understand your concern and my suggestion is as follows:
1. Have a soils engineer write a report with his suggestions and forward to a structural engineer and provide design recommendations utilizing a fix ti the existing. Be sure to have them both meet at the site with you at the same time.

If the existing footings at top of footing are close to the same elevation I would excavate inside the existing footings with a back-hoe 12" wide and 18" deep (below top of existing footings) install rebar as referenced above and don't forget the vertical bars.


Good luck and let me know and forward additional pictures.
Was your concrete subcontractors first name "Barak"?

Charles "Tim" Gore


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

If that was my foundation guy, I would have a footing that was 6" higher and would be paying for extra mud. Level from the high point!
Of course we would have talked about any issues that came up, before the pour. 
You need to use a check list and inspect every phase of construction yourself, if you did you would have noticed the poor grading.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

*final leveling?*

When do I show up on a job and not have to do final leveling.....um....like always....Six inches is ridiculous....I find it hard to believe anyone thinks 6" variance over 60' is acceptable....Excavator (one with some pride anyhow) should have that dialed in to no more than maybe 2" out...Everyone after him has to have it perfect....so I think 2" or less is not asking too much....But back to the footings.....Ever see superior walls go in? gravel footings....as I said previously, some soils allow walls with no footings at all....I have seen guys pour footings over VERY disturbed soil....I have seen guys add WAY too much water to the mix...I have seen guys leave the rebar at home....I think tearing out and re-pouring is nuts....You say the concrete guy came recommended...he's probably not a hack...what's his take?


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

Barak???? I do not get that, I'm guessing it's a joke....Please explain...


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## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

Yeah, very much not funny CTGORE. 
Dave


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## Moneypit (Dec 1, 2009)

I guess my experiances are different then others. Not only do I always do final leveling (not usually up to 6 inches but I would still do it), I have NEVER had a GC get in the hole and start checking elevations. 
So for those of you who have the GC check elevations, what else do they check? Dimentions? Square? Offsets? Slump? Where does it end? Is he supposed to do all these detailed checks for every subcontractor that steps in the house? It just doesnt seem possible.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

6" does not require "inspection", it merely requires looking in the hole.


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## jshuatree (Feb 21, 2010)

stacker said:


> my only question is,as the GC,where the hell were you when they were setting forms and getting ready to pour?
> maybe things are different in your part of the world,but where i live and work.i dont think i have ever laid a block foundation and the GC not been there or at least come by and inspected before i was done.and ive laid alot of foundations.
> 
> "-I do not have a level and laser to have tested the sitework contractors work"
> ...


my bad I mis read ..thought it was another HO looking for a cheapy..I can be a little high strung sometimes..my apologies there paul...nothin like an old salty mason to get a man to thinking...but I would take care of my subs like that you make a man want to do good work for you and you get more flies with honey [or is that crap] or anyway you get what I'm saying


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## jshuatree (Feb 21, 2010)

Moneypit said:


> I guess my experiances are different then others. Not only do I always do final leveling (not usually up to 6 inches but I would still do it), I have NEVER had a GC get in the hole and start checking elevations.
> So for those of you who have the GC check elevations, what else do they check? Dimentions? Square? Offsets? Slump? Where does it end? Is he supposed to do all these detailed checks for every subcontractor that steps in the house? It just doesnt seem possible.


I don't know but if I were a gc I would check alot of those things just maybe not in front of everyone [wouldn't want to have anyone feel insulted] but then again there is the human equation...I would especialy check if it were the first time I had used this crew and I definatly would try to be there with a new crew or a least try my very best to be, but things don't always go the way we'd like. Do they?...but what about pouring over them with extra concrete as bconley stated will you other guys elaborate on that sounds feesable to me but wouldn't care to see what everyone else thinks.


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## jchomes (Mar 3, 2010)

doesnt look good thats for sure. peace of mind and quality is everything i live up state too and word of mouth is everything up here make sure quality is first. as far as inspectors go some care alot and other could care less so i have noticed. dont know how far up state you are but i know a great contractor does great flat work


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## jshuatree (Feb 21, 2010)

heres another thought though no matter who's falt it was yours as the gc, the exavaters, or your concrete guys. All your subs should know the differance in good work and bad work and they should be the type to have your back and you should have theres. I guess what I'm saying is your relationships are just as meaningfull as the work and if there not an asset there a liability. If I were a gc I would not only try to make the customers comfortable but my subs too. And if they would go ahead and do the work and then state that it's not there fault, even if there right I'd know that they werent the subs for me.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Welcome to the world of GC. Since you decided you could build this house with out paying a professional to watch for this type of crap your going to have to spend a lot more time looking over it your self. Saving all that money doing it yourself isn't looking so great now is it?

If I showed up at a site with the footing subgrade that far out of wack, no way I poor until it is right and the GC signs off on additional labor to cover my time. 

Personally if it were my house I would dig around and figure out where the shallow spots are and bridge them as NJ said. Steel would work as well as a prefab lintel. Then form it an pour and you will be fine. 

Heads up as this is what you can expect all the way to final painting. I would ream the inspetor to pay more attention, but ultimately its your house. Oh and find somebody else to give you highly recommended subs.:clap:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Looks like the same concrete hack my cousin used. Rip it out. Crappy grade would be your problem. They could of maybe have set footing grade off the high spot. However I would still charge you for the extra labor and concrete. More is better and less in no good.


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## paul6 (Apr 30, 2010)

Thank you again for all your comments, There is no doubt i have some learning curve here but i guess we all do sooner or later stepping up to bigger things?

I made a decision and that was to rip them out, which at the end of the day im glad i did. They where alot worse then i expected and the steel was all out of wack (when it was pumped in it came at sucha force it pushed it around, which he likley should have braced it better) 

Both of the contractors as well as the building inspector and even me all took a peace in the blame game, lastly to blame was rain on clay and people walking around on wet clay this likely caused SOME of the out of wack light spots but is no excuse.

I made a deals with both the site contractor to rip them out and regrade and worked with him all day maken sure if anything there was a few LOW spots vs any high but its much better, and now with the back fill stone it will keep it better aswell.

Me and the concrete contractor made an agreement and he made good on the materials wasted which helped, and i rather not bring it into a legal situation anyway as it would just complicate things and cause unnecessary drama. aswell we ended our contract for the rest of this project.

Bottom line is it was a minor (in the grand scheme of things if the house got built and had future problems) financial set back, and a good learning experience. I will without a double spend MUCH more time on site, checking double checking, and QA'ing till im blue in the face.

Biggest setback of the whole thing is time, i just need to keep praying for as little to no rain as possible :/

A lesson learned, now lets just hope besides the time setback, this is the only issue ill have the rest of the project? but is ANYONE that lucky?

Im sure i will spend a good deal of time reading up here and participating with many more questions along the way.

thanks again all!


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Good deal, man, glad it worked out like it should.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Hang around here Paul! Nice to have you.:thumbsup:


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Take the loss, rip it out. You have just learned a good lesson.


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