# My First Shower



## john5mt (Jan 21, 2007)

So i just did my first tile shower. 
Used Kerdi and Laticrete 272 and a Kerdi Drain
Poured the pan, durock, etc

All i got to say is HOLY CRAP that kicked my butt. The hours are astronomical in how many hours i put into this thing.....and its not very big

So a couple of questions.

First look at the pictures and critique my layout.

Second, my local tile store quoted me that one of their guys would provide the backer board and water proof for 4.50 a square foot

and would set tile and grout for 5.50 a square foot. 

my question is HOW THE HECK DO YOU GUYS MAKE ANY MONEY? 

I think i am going to stick to slinging wood. Are these numbers crazy low to you or typical? This was on a slab....does that merit any more money?

Gonna grout it tomorrow. Hopefully that goes more on schedule.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

For one, don't ever think of a custom shower as a per sq ft price. No 2 showers are ever the same. 

My custom showers usually fall between $3000-$5000. The way to make money is to first know what products work best for you in different situations. The next step is to get experience. Seems each time I do one, I get a little bit faster.

Something that helps me is to preplan as much as possible. My layouts are usually done before I ever mix up thinset. Don't give yourself any surprises. Also, don't be afraid to recommend or specify products to your customers that will save you time. There are a plethora of ready made benches, shelves, edge profiles. etc that can help you get done faster. 

As for your layout, looks fine to me. It all looks straight and square.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

Looks great to me. Everything is in plane and your joints match.

I agree with Angus that sqft for custom showers is ridiculous. I don't do custom residential work, but I do ALOT of tile in the commercial market, mainly for the malls, some of it is standard and some is intricate for a showpiece area.

I have a unit cost per tile that I charge for replacement, because its hundreds of thousands of sqft of the same thing and nothing ever changes. Tear out old tile and anti crack membrane, install new membrane and tile, grout and clean. All the same mundane repeated steps every night.


However when they want new and used to ask for a sqft price I used to tell them the same thing, that each project is different and I need to quote each job individually. They've since learned that and don't ask for sqft anymore.

The guys that do EVERYTHING at a sqft price will win some and lose a lot, but those that take each projects intricacies and price accordingly will lose some while winning alot more.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Nice job. :thumbsup:


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## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

looks great! only thing I would have done differently is maybe miter the bullnose on the outside corner of the plumbing wall. otherwise.:thumbup:


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

ISM37 said:


> looks great! only thing I would have done differently is maybe miter the bullnose on the outside corner of the plumbing wall. otherwise.:thumbup:


Mitre Bullnose like quoted above and start building recessed niches :thumbup:

Nice design and clean look :clap:


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

ISM37 said:


> looks great! only thing I would have done differently is maybe miter the bullnose on the outside corner of the plumbing wall. otherwise.:thumbup:


I missed that. But you're right, would've made a big difference for a small detail.


I agree with the others: I think it looks great. I never did a shower, and only did some small tile floor jobs in the past. I was planning on trying one for my Mom, but she wanted a tub surround as it would be done in less time.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

In the 3rd and 4th pictures, what's that little square indentation at the bottom of the shower for (opposite the plubming wall)?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

jb4211 said:


> In the 3rd and 4th pictures, what's that little square indentation at the bottom of the shower for (opposite the plubming wall)?


A place to put your foot when you shave your legs?


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Definitely what Angus said(surprise...). If that shower was two feet bigger in each direction it would only have taken you a couple more hours to do. Maybe not even that considering how cramped you must have been. It's all about the cuts, putting more whole tiles in the field is a breeze.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> A place to put your foot when you shave your legs?


:thumbsup: I liked that detail. That can be a great selling point. Women buy showers and throwing one of those bad boys might land the job even when your 130% higher than jagoff the handyman.


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

I never charge per for, on a small shower like that I charge per wall. 600 plus 300 to build a pan. . Plus flooring . Add shower fixtures and if they want new shower valves add plummer at 90 per hour. Remove and replace toilet, painting and vanity top. Some want granite so I bring my granite Guy in at 500 per slab plus under mount sink fabrication. Sind about right guys?


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## john5mt (Jan 21, 2007)

jb4211 said:


> In the 3rd and 4th pictures, what's that little square indentation at the bottom of the shower for (opposite the plubming wall)?


Like Warner said .... A place to shave the legs

THanks for all the kind words....off to go grout:blink:


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Nice looking shower John.

Did you flood test your shower pan before tiling?

When your just starting out and even for us pro's who do this every time this one step will separate a shower that will stand the test of time and one that will start falling apart from the first shower on.

I would go the recessed route for the niche's as well going forward.

Did you struggle with regular dry set mortar setting the large format tile?

JW


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

Great job, everything looks great. I prefer to continue the tiles around the shower instead of having a centered layout on each wall. It takes more time to layout but it joins the walls together nicely.
On the pricing, my guy always falls between $3k and $5k on showers depending on the tile and layout and he never does them by the square foot. Materials alone on one of these showers using the schluter drain, kerdi membrane, and morter bed are $500-$800.


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

Looks good but can be better...I would use Schluter trims at outside corners and run the tile all the way to the ceiling.:thumbsup:


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## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> A place to put your foot when you shave your legs?


I was about to type that.then I scroll down and you beat me to it!


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

astor said:


> Looks good but can be better...I would use Schluter trims at outside corners and run the tile all the way to the ceiling.:thumbsup:


I agree completely, but chances are he had to use what the customer wanted and could afford. So it's hard to judge the work he did against work that wasn't contracted.

Could be that being his first shower he didn't know about Schluter trims, and the ho probably didn't either.

What I WOULD do JB is take astors advice and go to your tile distributor and get yourself this years Schluter catalog to show your customer for future projects. It's an upgrade well spent!!

This is from 2010 but they have updated pricing for 2011 out at my store, book is at the shop though, not here.









Schiene or Rondec are two that make a huge impact and are sort of consumer friendly compared to their higher end trims.

View attachment 67339


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

john5mt said:


> The hours are astronomical in how many hours i put into this thing.....and its not very big


That's one thing a lot of people don't understand about things like that, but now you do. 

Like you said, it's small, so I would have made it larger....if possible.
The tile looks funny terminating there, so I would have found a carpenter and raised that other wall, then ran the tile up further. A lot of people pay too close attention to specs and not enough on establishing a good design. 

I'd also ditch the peel and stick soap shelves and recess some, especially in such a small unit. But where they are, I'd make sure they have some drain holes in them and if not, drill a few.




> my question is HOW THE HECK DO YOU GUYS MAKE ANY MONEY?


Some do if they are good, most don't for a variety of reasons--one of them is they confuse getting a check with making money.  
I heard it takes 2 years of setting to get good--if you can. Using mechanical aids does nothing but compensate and slow ya down. Same thing with putting lines all over the place, dragging levels around, etc. But this is probably the same with most trades, do piecework FT and if you figure out how to make money at it and get a chance, you will, but most won't.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

CO762 said:


> Using mechanical aids does nothing but compensate and slow ya down. Same thing with putting lines all over the place, dragging levels around, etc.


:blink::blink:

How the hell would you lay tile, much less wall tile without lines and levels?


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Looks nice..why is the shower head so low..I hate low shower heads. Also if that is bullnose tile then no need for any schluter. Darn good job for your first shower.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Nice work! And way to have the  to put it up for critique. I am still looking for the  to put mine up.

I agree with the recessed niches.


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Nice job on the shower .:thumbsup: Just not a fan of tiles on shower curbs i like solid stone or man made to match tile color .


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

EthanB said:


> How the hell would you lay tile, much less wall tile without lines and levels?


Some folks use lines to square a room (reference points) and run off those. For walls, a reference line or 90 and go. This varies with distance and joining rooms/hallways, and of course, materials. 

I guess what I was saying, the more griding and/or dragging a level as you set takes too much time for anything but T/M.


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## john5mt (Jan 21, 2007)

overanalyze said:


> Looks nice..why is the shower head so low..I hate low shower heads. Also if that is bullnose tile then no need for any schluter. Darn good job for your first shower.


The shower head is like 6' 7 above the finished tile pan....how high would you put it?




> Nice job on the shower . Just not a fan of tiles on shower curbs i like solid stone or man made to match tile color .


Neither am i but theres glass going in and it was all about budget



> I agree completely, but chances are he had to use what the customer wanted and could afford. So it's hard to judge the work he did against work that wasn't contracted.
> 
> Could be that being his first shower he didn't know about Schluter trims, and the ho probably didn't either.


Yeah i took the job....then they decided they wanted to fix the problem with tile (ive done floors but never showers) instead of an insert installed properly this time.

So i learned about Kerdi on here as i was trying to figure out the ins and outs of waterproofing. Then i saw the trims but the customer had already been convinceed to use bullnose. Pretty sure i could have saved a bunch of time and money using them....and i think they would look better too.




> Nice work! And way to have the to put it up for critique. I am still looking for the to put mine up.


Thanks



> Nice looking shower John.
> 
> Did you flood test your shower pan before tiling?
> 
> ...


Yes i did...mainly cuz i wanted to see if kerdi works cuz i am still unsure how the seams are bonded with motar which in my mind would let water through? Maybe its such a minute amount that it isnt enough to cause any damage?

I havent hung tiles on a wall before so i dont really have much to compare to with other motars? They did want to slide down so i had to use the spacers to keep them in place and adjust them as it dried? I mixed the stuff pretty thick cuz i have read tons of threads of people having stuff pop off because they mixed in too much water. I am sure that kind of stuff slowed me down. 



The prices you guys have given me...labor only? labor and materials?

I am in the process of adding up hours and billing so we'll see how it goes. I'll post some picks of the grouted job up today or tomorrow:thumbup:


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

I usually set my shower heads 6'6 to 7' more to the 7' side if I have it my way


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

john5mt said:


> The shower head is like 6' 5 above the finished tile pan....how high would you put it:


Oh that's not horrible..looks low in picture. I usually set at 6-8 to 7'. So do you like the kerdi?


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## john5mt (Jan 21, 2007)

overanalyze said:


> Oh that's not horrible..looks low in picture. I usually set at 6-8 to 7'. So do you like the kerdi?


Yeah I think so. Though if there is something similar that let's you use modified thinset I would like to try it too to compare


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

john5mt said:


> Though if there is something similar that let's you use modified thinset I would like to try it too to compare


<cough> NobleSeal TS <cough>


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Just did one with aqua defense and it specs modified. I liked it.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

EthanB said:


> Definitely what Angus said(surprise...). *If that shower was two feet bigger in each direction it would only have **taken you a couple more hours to do.* Maybe not even that considering how cramped you must have been. It's all about the cuts, putting more whole tiles in the field is a breeze.


Ain't that the truth! Although I've done a fair amount of tile, my first attempt at a shower (my own) was laughable. I joked that my chimney took me less time.....and that's got two fireplaces......if it was for a customer, I would have just guilted them into at least giving me minimum wage....:sweatdrop:


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

Floormasta78 said:


> I never charge per for, on a small shower like that I charge per wall. 600 plus 300 to build a pan. . Plus flooring . Add shower fixtures and if they want new shower valves add plummer at 90 per hour. Remove and replace toilet, painting and vanity top. Some want granite so I bring my granite Guy in at 500 per slab plus under mount sink fabrication. Sind about right guys?


Glad your in California.......you'd be beating me by at least 30%. And min. 50% on the granite! 

Good job on the shower! I often get asked if I have a sq ft price....I .pretty much wrap up the conversation when I hear that!

The showers that I continue to tear out in these new homes.......show per sqft doesn't work!


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

srwcontracting said:


> ...The showers that I continue to tear out in these new homes.......show per sqft doesn't work!


So true.

I think clients first go for the square foot price and then ask for the extra's.

What I hear most from the tile setters who meet me onsite is that they can not believe the client will pay to have me waterproof the shower and then pay someone else to tile it.

These tile setters shocked that I even get work when none of their builders will pay any more than the norm.

I think in a square foot pricing environment people forget that ever premium product is money out of pocket for the setter.

If you want a better job - hire your guy by the square foot and then offer to pay for the materials (ie setting material and grout). Now you saved him a little and he need not rush to make up for lost profits do to material choices.

JW


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## Ethos (Feb 21, 2012)

EthanB said:


> :blink::blink:
> 
> How the hell would you lay tile, much less wall tile without lines and levels?


Exactly. Gotta have level lines (unless you use a laser), and I always use spacers when tiling vertically. I know there's anti-sag thinset, but spacers just keep me honest.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter how you do the work as long as it comes out looking good and it lasts.


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