# first time torch down



## Ringo (Jul 4, 2005)

hello;

I'm getting ready to do a torch down on my new shop roof.
I have read all the fire warnings.

I have bought GAF 75# base and GAF TP-4 Granular

questions:
1. The granular sheet has a thin plastic skin over the mod. bit.
Do I peel this off, or do I just melt it in.
2. How do I do butt joints? Is the end of the roll granular free?
I assume I can't torch on top of the granular.

thanks


----------



## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

You should REALLY REALLY REALLY consider hiring a professioanl to do your roof. You are risking burning down the building and killing all of its occupants. DO NOT DO THIS!


----------



## Ringo (Jul 4, 2005)

Thanks for the warnings. I will keep them in mind.

I have a fire extinquisher, I know how to use it. If something catches on fire I will put it out. What is so risky about that?

I suppose something could smolder and ignite later so I will keep my eye on it.

Any safety tips would be appreciated.

There is risk driving to the store, but we all do it.

thanks again


----------



## John B (Feb 4, 2005)

here's a safety tip:

[/QUOTE]You should REALLY REALLY REALLY consider hiring a professioanl to do your roof. You are risking burning down the building and killing all of its occupants. DO NOT DO THIS


----------



## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

I never recommend anyone use open flame without the supervision of a skilled professional. Go returnt he modified you bought and go buy some self adhesive modified.

I also always encourage everyone to hire a professional roofer no matter what type of roof they are installing. Your roof protects your building and everything in it. A few hundred bucks saved now can cost you thousands in replaced ceilings and equipment down the road.

If you do insist on doing this yourself then read the manufacturers instructions and it will tell you all you need to know.


----------



## JMac (Jan 4, 2005)

*Torch applied roof*

Ringo, there are other hazzards that are probably not listed on the label. Think about your breathing. It gives off many forms of toxens when heated. I do remodeling and sometimes run into torch applied and do them myself with help of my guys. You leave the plastic skin and it will melt, it is there only to keep tar off the granuals. Over lap the butt joints 4" - 6" The tar will seal even over the granuals. Heat the felt and the underside of the roll at the same time as you roll it out and may God be with you in this quest.
.

thanks[/QUOTE]


----------



## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Felt?


----------



## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

Ringo said:


> hello;
> 
> I'm getting ready to do a torch down on my new shop roof.
> I have read all the fire warnings.
> ...


 If you need to ask these questions ,you realy should not be doing this job yourself. Plus i guarantee your insurance does not cover you for torch applied roofing unless you are a roofing contractor.


----------



## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

bergenbldr said:


> If you need to ask these questions ,you realy should not be doing this job yourself. Plus i guarantee your insurance does not cover you for torch applied roofing unless you are a roofing contractor.


... and not ALL insured roofing contractors are covered for torch work either. Quite a few have specific exclusions.

For example my own coverage is dramatically reduced when it comes to open flames.


----------



## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

With the adhered products improving all the time it realy doesnt make sense to increase ones liability and risk to just apply a torch down.
Best to follow manufacturer recomendations for the application


----------



## pbeeson (Jul 24, 2005)

Has anyone used Mule Hide self adhering Modified Bitumen Roof system before?


----------



## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

I have been looking at it, but still would only use it for mid-slope applications on residentials with no obstructions and a gutter edge (no drain details)


----------



## theman (Dec 25, 2003)

*Torch Roof*



Ringo said:


> hello;
> 
> I'm getting ready to do a torch down on my new shop roof.
> I have read all the fire warnings.
> ...


 Ringo Check the Fire Code of Your State

Chap F 1417.1 Roofing Operations utilizing heat producing systems or other ignition sources SHALL be performed by a contractor, licensed AND bonded for the type of roofing process to be performed.
Chap F 1417.3 address Fire Extinguishers.


----------



## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Anyone got a match?

Bob


----------



## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

Torching is not something you just do, you have to learn how to do it. As for not answering his questions, why should we? If he doesnt know how to install a product its probably not a good idea to tell him how when working with open flames.

If I were you I would hire someone, or go buy S/A mod bit and do it that way. 

There are a number of people here who can tell you exactly how to do this, but we are looking out for that persons well being. If you just built the shop why would you risk burning it down? Torch roofs can smolder for hours with out someone knowing about it. Plywood or coverboard doesnt matter even ISO will smolder.


@scrapy750

Try being civil everyonce and awhile. Stop generalizing about roofers. Its not like we are sitting in here talking about all the plumbers and thier hairy butt cracks, or how they cant put a roof drain in to save thier life, or how they come up on the roof and think its a good idea to slam a pipe though and seal it with "tar" and by that I mean asphalt caulking in a tube and its on a PVC roof. :whistling


----------



## buildpinnacle (Sep 2, 2008)

If I had a nickel for every time I saw an impropery applied modified bitumen roof, I'd retire. No envelopes, running the field sheet up the walls in lieu of proper wall and base flashing, no terminations, no targets around penetrations, and on and on and on. After all these years, apparently.............the plumber did it. 

On a serious note, if you are a Master Plumber and don't get completely beside yourself when you find out joe handyman is turning your tricks around town for $15 bucks an hour, you'd be the first I met. Most licensed trades get very offended when other trades pilfer their licensed work. Why should a roofer be any different. There is absolutely NO way this guy can put this roof on to spec, and if it's not to spec......it won't last. It's just a very expensive patch.


----------



## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

looks like the posts got cleaned up a bit. Hopefully someone wont be back.

Back to topic. 

Ringo take a step back and think about it for a little while. You just built a new shop and your going to put and open flame to it. Sometimes these things arent just as simple as puting out a fire they can get out of hand very very quickly. This is why a great number of roofers do not install these type of systems any more.


----------



## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

1985gt said:


> Torching is not something you just do, you have to learn how to do it. As for not answering his questions, why should we? If he doesnt know how to install a product its probably not a good idea to tell him how when working with open flames.


 Those are my thoughts exactly. I'm not going to tell someone how to do something they shouldn't be doing then get sued because they burned down a building and I was the one who told them what to do. I mean seiously, would YOU reading this want someone on your roof with a flame thrower putting out a couple thousand degrees? MY guess is No.


Probably this same guy... http://www.diychatroom.com/f9/help-torch-down-mb-114213/ Look at this joke of a thread. The guy drove 800 miles round trip from Canada to Indiana USA because he saved $10 a roll. LOL. WTF is wrong with people?! 



BTW Moderators I want my post back!


----------



## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

buildpinnacle said:


> If I had a nickel for every time I saw an impropery applied modified bitumen roof, I'd retire. No envelopes, running the field sheet up the walls in lieu of proper wall and base flashing, no terminations, no targets around penetrations, and on and on and on. After all these years, apparently.............the plumber did it.
> 
> On a serious note, if you are a Master Plumber and don't get completely beside yourself when you find out joe handyman is turning your tricks around town for $15 bucks an hour, you'd be the first I met. Most licensed trades get very offended when other trades pilfer their licensed work. Why should a roofer be any different. There is absolutely NO way this guy can put this roof on to spec, and if it's not to spec......it won't last. It's just a very expensive patch.


People ask me why I don't like modified anymore, and honestly a large part of the reason other than risk and insurance and safety, a larger reason is I just don't want to be associated with the ind of contractor who installs modified. Not to say you can't provide a fine roof with modified, there are lots of great craftsman installing modified bitumen. But for every one properly trained roofer installing modified I am willing to bet there are 5 or 6 who are clueless. I just didn't want to be associated with that anymore and made the change to single ply.


----------



## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Ringo said:


> There is risk driving to the store, but we all do it.


OK, let's do the cost/benefit by the numbers.

Cost to you in dollars of a catastrophic outcome to this event which causes property damage or personal injury = $CDIY
Likelihood, 0 to 1, of a catastrophic outcome to this event due to operator error or any other foreseen or unforeseen cause = LDIY

Cost in dollars to hire a pro = $CPRO
Likelihood, 0 to 1, of you paying for a pro who screws the pooch on this job = LPRO

If $CDIY x LDIY = $CPRO x LPRO then this decision is a toss-up, financially speaking.

In any case do not qualify for a Darwin Award.


----------



## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

Grumpy I agree, and with the S/A modifieds and even single plys it will be worse. Every tom dick and harry can now "install" a roof.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f9/help-t...own-mb-114213/ 

I do wonder if its the same person. I did pee a little in my pants though....


----------



## CORVAIRWILD (Sep 13, 2014)

3 years after the last post, I am looking at how I should repair the roof of a large apt building my wife and I own. It has some kind of 3' wide roofing, covered with aluminum paint then tar goop that totally didn't bond, and we have filled up a dumpster sweeping it off the roof. 
Anyhow, it's 58'x140' and has ZERO pitch and two drains at opposite corners. Needless to say, it always has small leaks, and 1 apt has major leaks during the winter. I have spent 10 years patching it, and it's time to spend the bucks to re-roof it. I would like to add some pitch, and drain to the toilet vents. Before you all freak out, I've had several contractors look at it over the years, and one quoted $100,000 to go over it just as it sits, no pitch, no extra drains... 
I know that one is NOT supposed to convert toilet vents to drains, but if I open up the 12 or so vents to drains, the amount of water will not IMO cause the toilets to have their water sucked out. The building also has only 1 main drain, everything drains to 1 6" pipe.
I have had a licensed structural engineer at the building, and we discussed the issues at length. The only other alternative would be to add trusses, and that would require extending the numerous range hood vents and gutters around the building. I think the system I want to do is better, if not easier.
So my question is, which roofing system to use? Torch down? Or Modified? I understand the danger of open flame, but I'm a former (ASE licensed) car mechanic and have used torches forever. I would bring a garden hose up to the roof (90lbs city pressure) and a couple large fire extinguishers. 
I made a video at the local lumber supply showing their torch down and cold vulcanizing products. I have also sent a drawing to a local wholesale roofing supply and they will supply me with a quote for a styrofoam wedge system that is intended to be covered with torch down rubber.
I have been doing contracting type of work for almost 25 years (I don't work for anybody), and except for flat roofing, have pretty much done it all. I do ALL my own electrical, from the mast drop to electric boilers, all plumbing, gas heat, sheetrock, fine finish work etc etc. I also keep all our vehicles on the road, including my daily driver, and '84 Suburban 6,2 diesel. I just drove it 2000 miles round trip to Detroit Michigan, and it just turned 280k, with another 200k to go!
I have read the previous posts, and I hope you guys can keep it civil


----------



## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

I would check with your local building and fire departments as to weather a torch down job is allowed in your particular situation . I would also call my insurance agent to find out how your coverage is in the event of a worse case scenario. Where I'm from NYC , torch downs are not allowed anymore to the best of my knowledge .


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

My roofer caught a home on fire, twice! We got it out both times, but I went home with soiled shorts. 

We no longer do torch, I only do TPO on flat roofs.


----------



## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Not a roofer or a plumber but I don't think it's a good idea to be dumping water into a vent. What if there's a major rain event? Have you considered some sort of foam insulation tapered to give you some pitch and then put a membrane over that.

If your roof is 58', split that in 1/2 which comes to 29', go 1/8:12 (should be 1/4:12 but in your case maybe fudge it and just lay it out extra carefully); with that pitch you'd have to come up a little over 3" at the crown, take it to the sides to parapet drains and crickets, detail out the membrane over that and call it a day........


----------



## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

This is going to be that job you wished you didn't do. Going into this your thinking this is doable, but you will find out it was a huge mistake. You will put a ton of time and materials into this and the guy who ends up fixing it will be tearing all your work off. Run don't walk from this idea.


----------



## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Why torch down in the first place? Why not Epdm or tpo?


----------



## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

AaronB. said:


> You should REALLY REALLY REALLY consider hiring a professioanl to do your roof. You are risking burning down the building and killing all of its occupants. DO NOT DO THIS!


Great advice!!!!


----------



## CORVAIRWILD (Sep 13, 2014)

Can someone explain the difference between EPDM, torch down, TPO and modified? I'm no fan of putting a torch on anything except maybe weeds in sidewalk crack!

And I'm waiting for a quote from the local supply for the styro.

And a major rain event? When it rains real hard the rain pours in thru the window boxes. This is a really poorly built edifice, and flashing over and around windows is J trim, no cap trim. I sealed up the corners with caulking, but there are so many flaws, it's just a poor bandaid really. When the rain comes in, the tenants have towels at the ready. When the day comes to repalce the siding, I'm sure the particle board (yup, PARTICLE BOARD!) will be rotten. I've already repaired a few patio doors where the mud sill was totally non existent! I did one over Christmas when the tenant was away, and there was a 3/4" gap w the sliding door closed! I used a flat bar to lift up the track and put a 5 gallon pail full of concrete on the far end to cantilever the bar to hold the track/window up and stuffed it full of grout, put a lamp on it and let it cure for a couple days, worked perfect!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPd6aUV_r9g


----------



## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

AndyWRS said:


> This is going to be that job you wished you didn't do. Going into this your thinking this is doable, but you will find out it was a huge mistake. You will put a ton of time and materials into this and the guy who ends up fixing it will be tearing all your work off. Run don't walk from this idea.


Pretty good advice here. An 80 square flat roof for a handyman, even a good one, won't likely turn out well.

This is a capital improvement to the property. Why not look at it that way and structure the cost of the improvement (finance) so the depreciation and the financing align themselves to the best advantage possible? Ask your accountant or look into it yourself.

You need a lot more than information to pull off a job like this properly. Read all you want, it will give you knowledge, but it won't give you any experience. You really need experience to make a job like this go well. That and several hard working mechanics and laborers.

There may be ways to bring down the cost of the job, such as you specifying it and requesting quotes based on your specs. This creates an apples to apples quoting process. But be aware specifying a roof isn't the same as knowing the instruction set. It requires a fair bit of experience.

So to put the right roof plan together requires experience.
AND
To carry out a quality installation requires experience.

The logical result is a need for experience.

If you really want help and advice, it's been given.

A little more....just FYI

Torch down is one type of modified.

There is APP and SBS. APP is the torch down variety. SBS is a mop down. There are also peel and stick SBS modified
Search 'APP Modifeid' and 'SBS Modified' for your education.

EPDM is synthetic rubber. This is what rubber roofing is. Other references to rubber roofs aren't.
Search 'EPDM roofing' for your education.

TPO is thermoplastic polyolefin. 
Search 'TPO roofing' for your education.

ALL of the above roofs are typically referred to as single ply membranes. They are essentially one sheet of roofing when complete.

Also search tapered roofing insulation. You may find that useful.


----------



## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

When I say run don't walk from this idea, I am not even talking about using a torch. That is a concern sure, but the whole draining into the plumbing pipes and all those roof penetrations and a mickey mouse re-pitch is just plain not even close to a good idea. You going to have major problems with your plan, all of it.

"I have spent 10 years patching it, and it's time to spend the bucks to re-roof it"

Your right, it is time to spend the $ to have a pro do it more than likely in a single ply.


----------



## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

It sounds like this wouldn't be a good project for you to tackle. 

1. Converting sewer vents to drains would be a terrible idea. They make new drains, retro fit drains or scuppers.
2. You can't torch over Styrofoam, it melts and starts on fire. 
3. Doing a lay over after patching the roof for 10 years most likely would be a terrible idea, depending on current roof construction of course. Any wet wood/insulation ect would need to be removed.
4. Should something happen your insurance company would have a field day knowing you were torching on your own roof. We have an exclusion on our insurance because of the cost.
5. It looks as if the building is older, I'd bet a crisp dollar that the layer of roofing you are seeing isn't the only roof that has been put on. I've seen people torch on 7,8,9 plys of modified as "new roofs". Adding more weight is a bad idea let alone the trapped moisture that is there.


If the roof drains go in to 1 6" pipe that is way to far under sized for the roof area. 

This is what I would spec if you were to call us and give you a quote. 

1. Tear off all of the existing roof layers down to the (insert deck material here guessing wood). 
2. Replace any wet or damaged decking.

3. Install new tapered Polyiso 1/4" (or 1/8" for money saving) per foot slope in both directions towards the (length of the roof). -Exactly like Rio described. 

4. Five new scupper openings will be cut per side of roof through the walls. 

5. New tapered insulation crickets will be installed between the new scupper openings with 1/2" per foot tapered insulation.

6. New EPDM, or TPO will be installed the seams sealed ect.

7. New prefinished collector heads and open face downspouts will be installed around scupper openings and brought down to grade.

9. New prefinished cap/edge metal.

Cost saving ideas.

Tapered insulation out of stryofoam and a coverboard is used.
Mechanically attached TPO
Galvanized Edge metal and collector heads and downspouts.


80 squares while it isn't a huge roof, still would take a crew of 6 a good couple of weeks if not longer depending on exact conditions to complete the project.


Run, don't walk I think sums it up best. Step back and look at the big picture while it might seem to be a good learning experience or a fun project, it will quickly become a burden.

I don't think anyone is doubting your handiness when it comes to other things but this is a different animal. Comparing a oxy torch to a propane is apples and oranges, so many things can go wrong so quickly, plus doing a roof of that size with a single burner torch will get old and slow real quick.


----------



## CORVAIRWILD (Sep 13, 2014)

Hey 1985gt, how much is a plane ticket to the Adirondacks? Nice here, leaves will be changing any day... and yeah, the deck is wood, 5/8" plywood over 2x7's and I'm sure there's plenty of rot


----------



## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

You may not care about building codes, and it may not be inspected where your building is located, but nowhere is it acceptable to run storm water down plumbing drains.

Besides the possible issues that would most likely result from this, any jurisdiction I know of does not allow you to send storm water into non storm water sewage lines.

I'm sure you're capable of the things you say, but the blatant disregard for reason and code, which in this case is fairly reasonable... Sounds like things could get very ugly!


----------



## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Haha. Didn't realize this thread is from 2005!


----------



## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

That happened to me more times than I can count. lol


----------



## CORVAIRWILD (Sep 13, 2014)

There's only one sewer line in the road in this 'hood. I've discussed it with the city, and that's the way it is. The road where the sewer exits was completely torn up and re-done well after the building was built, and there could have been a second storm water provision made, but the city doesn't care. 

That aside, any suggestions for a patch system better than the bucket of Karnak tar (flashing cement) and ice n water shield I've been using? I have one apt that's really leaking alot, and winter is soon approaching. We've called a number of contractors to look at the roof, most say truss it and off the sides. 

In the meantime I'm gong to re-read 1985gt's suggestions, there's alot to absorb


----------



## CORVAIRWILD (Sep 13, 2014)

The problem w pro's around here is there are so few, there's little to no competition, same with the masons. One roofer quoted $100,000 several years ago, and a couple others didn't even show up to quote. I could go on, I've hired a few contractors, REAL contractors, and they can go work for someone else.

I've been in this business almost 25 years, and the more I see how other folk's jobs turn out, the more I prefer to do it my way. Not to say all contractors around here are boobs, but my experience has been less than satisfactory.

I'm not averse to hiring a pro, but this is a crappy building w many flaws. We can handle spending the coin to "do it right", but a sister building to this had a new roof put on just before a friend bought it, and the job was quite poor, and the invoice was for over $100,000 11 years ago.
Would anybody venture to guess what the cost of a tear off and single ply re-roof will be? Assuming we just left it with the 2 existing drains...


----------



## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

CORVAIRWILD said:


> The problem w pro's around here is there are so few, there's little to no competition, same with the masons. One roofer quoted $100,000 several years ago, and a couple others didn't even show up to quote. I could go on, I've hired a few contractors, REAL contractors, and they can go work for someone else.
> 
> I've been in this business almost 25 years, and the longer I tackle jobs, the more I prefer to do it my way.
> 
> ...


80 sq with a full rip of all that garbage? 100k sounds like a good price. You could prob get away with a tpo roof over top of all that junk for less than half that price. Just look the other way so the water shooting up from your screw holes doesn't hit you in the face.


----------



## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Build some crickets with ISO the start kicking some rubber.


----------

