# That Should Have Been Included



## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

Gordo, that’s what I call the “carrot stick and dinner” ploy.

He provides the carrot. You provide the steak, potato and wine, and then he eats it all.

#11. Carrot stick and dinner.

#12. You’re not allowed to make any markup. You’re a laborer, not a contractor.

Unfortunately Joe, most who got to that position did it to themselves by treating themselves not as business owners, but as tradesmen, pure and simple. Change, otherwise you will continue to be both, your own pimp and whore. They too sell labor only, in which case they end up getting screwed only, one way or another - or both.


----------



## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

We've all had this one, sometimes it is sincere, sometimes it is a ploy to get a better price....
"I really want you to get the job, but just so you know, the other guy is bidding "X" amount" We usually can assume that this is a fictitious competitor, and this is what they think they sould have to spend.
Of course when you ask to see the competitor's offer, or the name of the competior, or the brands of product they were quoted, they can't remember.

This is another one I find interesting.....

They talk about the guy that did the last project for them as if they are still tight with that guy. Well, why is he not doing this work? 
My original concern would usually have been that I'm being used to keep another guy honest, but in most of the times I have dealt with this, I get the work, and about halfway through the project, I get little comments about how the last guy didn't return their calls, or did sloppy work, or ripped them off, etc. etc. 
Although this is another form of false competition. But in this case, once you prove your worth, I believe you have a customer for life.


----------



## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

Pearce Services said:


> We've all had this one, sometimes it is sincere, sometimes it is a ploy to get a better price....


Pearce, don't be nice and try to make a silk purse of a sow's ear.

It's "lying" - pure and simple.

Regardless of how nice they seem, many people are servantsto the master of money, instead of them being the master of money. Theysee it as MONEY, while we see "money" as simply one more tool in life.

They will lie, deceive, and stoop to levels most of us would not, for MONEY. So.....

#13. The liar! You can fill in the blank of what what s/he says.

Personally, when some one ies like taht to me, I cosider it an insult. I call them on it immediately and as far as I'm concerned, we're done.

Last year a guy and his wife, both very nice, personaly people hired me to do some work in there house. He bought out a small framed mirror, probably from Wal-Mart for $15, to hang on a wall. He dropped it and cracked the mirror. I mentioned that since it was an inexpensive mirror he could just buy a new one. Instead, he reboxed it and said he'd return it for a new one - free - telling them it was like that. I'll not do any more work for him in the future because he is a liar and deceitful, and I know the next lie will be directed to me, a sub, or a vendor, to get something done for free.

Yes, I'm the type of person who if I crack a toilet, will buy another one. I do not return it saying: "I opened the box and it was already cracked." What my name represents is the foundation of my life, and my business.

OK, I got on a soap box, but I cannot handle the type of person.


----------



## theworx (Dec 20, 2005)

Anyone get the: "Since you're here anyway" line. You're working on a job they hired you to complete. One day the HO comes up to you and says: "Since you're here anyway can you take a look at a door on the second floor that's sticking and won't latch properly?" Basically looking for you do run upstairs are fix their problem for nothing.

The sticking door is totally unrelated to the basement you are finishing for them but, because they've hired you and you are there, they expect this kind of favour. I guess they figure the hour of my time, talent and tools to fix the door is insignificant. I get this all the time...


----------



## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

That's what I call the "While your here" jobs. Fortunately for me, I've almost never had a customer expect me to do it/them for free. Usually it's just a case of a few items they got so used to working around they forgot about them until they had some one in their homes who could fix them. However, if I do some of them they really screw up my scheduling for the next day or two cause they are not only 15 minute jobs.

Anyone else here got those jobs but where they expect them to be done as freebies?


----------



## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

They might expect them to be freebies, but in my world they ain't. 
I gladly go look at the (stuck door, peelling paper, etc.), and write up a change order. Hand it too them, and say "no problem, it _will only cost $XX_". They either say go ahead, or you don't waste anymore of your time on it.


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

I get alot of those while you are heres (most do not expect it free). I, regardless of the situation will say,"We will be adding that to the bill." If it is going to mess with the schedule I will say,"We will put that on our schedule." Keeps the job security and any other competitors out of the picture.


----------



## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

I had a customer one time that asked for a line item bid for a bunch of small stuff. Decided not to do some of the items on the list, or so I thought. He hooked the guys up with lunch for a couple of days, then drops in the old, hey can you help me with this and that routine. Of course, my guys thought this guy was great, and helped him out.

When I noticed the extra work got done, I asked my guys who came in to do the work, they said that they wanted to make me look good because this guy has a lot more work coming up, so they did it for free, (while on my clock free).

I asked the customer about what happened, he said that he only asked for a little help, he didn't expect my guys to do the whole thing. And yes he did have more work, six months later someone else did it, I was not even asked to bid the work, I guess it was time for a new sucker.


----------



## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Gordo said:


> If you give me a good deal/discount I have some more work for you tactic.


My friend has a topsoil and trucking business. He had a landscaper, whom he has never dealt with before, call him up on a Sunday and needed one load of topsoil to finish up a job. He said, it is Sunday and we don't work Sunday's. The guy said, listen, I have a big job coming up where I need 50 loads. I'll get all of my dirt from you. So, he fires up the truck and takes the 1 load over. The guy pays him and he never hears from him again.


----------



## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

Don't feel bad, sucker. We've all been there. Remember, we're worse than suckers; we're azzholes - if we don't learn from this things and these people.

Many years ao when I first move here the first time, back in '81, (moved back to MI in '83) I was having coffee in a restaurant with a retired contractor. I asked him why he thought there were so many sleazy and/or incompetent contractors around. HIs reply, I've since lerned iwas righ ton. He said because the public had driven the good and honest one's out of business. Since then I have had no reservations in telling that go an occasional potential customer, followed by, the fact that so for many members of the public they deserve those incompentent and sleazy contractors, becasue they created them, nurtured them, and support them, while they destroy the honest ones.

As with any thing else in life, we and they reap what we sow.

Rino., Yep! One of the types I mentioned above.


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Sonny Lykos said:


> Don't feel bad, sucker. We've all been there. Remember, we're worse than suckers; we're azzholes - if we don't learn from this things and these people.
> 
> Many years ao when I first move here the first time, back in '81, (moved back to MI in '83) I was having coffee in a restaurant with a retired contractor. I asked him why he thought there were so many sleazy and/or incompetent contractors around. HIs reply, I've since lerned iwas righ ton. He said because the public had driven the good and honest one's out of business. Since then I have had no reservations in telling that go an occasional potential customer, followed by, the fact that so for many members of the public they deserve those incompentent and sleazy contractors, becasue they created them, nurtured them, and support them, while they destroy the honest ones.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

Gordo, again, we agree. You don't remember cause you're 38, but I remember the "morality" of the 50's 60's and even 70's. Look around you and you will see the decadence. My own kids, from 35 to 40 remember the past because theri parents represen the past. Taht past when honor, integrity, honesty existed and prode of work was one of the resullts.

Today's "market" wants the glitz and most sq. footage for their buck. they talk about quality, but are not willing too pay for it. Sooooooo, any market, regardless or the era, gets what it wants and deserves. 

There's a reason why ist's so easy for me to show and explain the difference to my customers between "production"and "custom" work. I just show them their existing floor tile job, or the trimwork, or the monolithic slabs that wer on even waterproofed. A stinking 16" high footing not even waterproofing, and our codes (a joke) doesn't even call for it. So I get the call for the mold showing up on the baseboards, and the efflorescence on their drywall, all due to the wicking of the rain water into their coditioned area.

Listen to this: About 2 weeks ago I goat a call from the Pres. of a condo assoication. The lady on the 1st floor had water coming in thru and around the can lite in her shower. The tenant above said the owner had a plumber thre about a year ago and he said he used dye and cold not fine the lek. Wen asked about the drain, he said there was a metal pan so it could not be the drain. He was a plumber - a MORON plumber.

I told both parties that sure there's a pan - but there is a hole in it for the PVC drain pipe to go thru it ----DUH! So I go upstairs to look at theirshower and drain and what do I find? No sealant between teh shower drain trim ring and the mosiac tile. It's all gone. I unscrew the chrome screen ring and can move the entier drain fitting 1/4" either way. And..... the fitting that's screwed into the drain fitting is loose, so I continue to unscrew and remove it. On the side of the lower fitting is a highly visibile crack about the size of a quarter and almost al of the way around. Before doing the above, I cut out some drywall from around the can lit in the unit below, turn the water in the shower on upstairs and from dowstairs I can see the water running down the trap which was right next to that can light.

I lost it and told te lady below that that plumber was an azzhole ( I later apologized to her for swearing).

Morons as tradesmen. Morons as contractors. Morons as builders. Morons as developers. Morons as building inspectors. Throw in the moronic liars as members of the buying public. It's surprising that anything gets built correctly!


----------



## painterman (Feb 5, 2005)

Morons as tradesmen. Morons as contractors. Morons as builders. Morons as developers. Morons as building inspectors. Throw in the moronic liars as members of the buying public. It's surprising that anything gets built correctly!

What he said

Stan


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Don't want to be wet blanket as you all cry in your coffees, but man it sounds like you all need to take a good hard look at re-writing your contracts. How many times does it take for you all to let a 2 year old kid hit you in the head with a hammer before you take the hammer out of his hand?


----------



## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

Mike, some of our peers have never had kids.


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Don't want to be wet blanket as you all cry in your coffees, but man it sounds like you all need to take a good hard look at re-writing your contracts. How many times does it take for you all to let a 2 year old kid hit you in the head with a hammer before you take the hammer out of his hand?


Mr. Perfect chimes in.:clap: I forgot that your contracts are so well versed that you never have any problems.


----------



## painterman (Feb 5, 2005)

For all the painters out there...this is my favorite "thats not the colour I picked" gota love that one

Stan


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Gordo said:


> Mr. Perfect chimes in.:clap: I forgot that your contracts are so well versed that you never have any problems.


F'kn A right!

You have a problem one time with a customer, you get out ole Microsoft word and edit your contract to cover the issue. You have the same problem twice, you're a fuk'n idiot and deserve it. You have the same problem three times you're not only an idiot, you would be better off working for somebody who is less of an idiot instead of pretending you know how to run your own business.

That's about what I think of that. 

If my logic is wrong, show me how, I'll be here waiting, unless it was not only Mexican walk out day, but also shoot your mouth off about something you know nothing about day too.


----------



## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

Before I was a handyman and subsequently became a legitimate GC, I was a retail store salesman, than an assistant manager and finally a store manager. As the assistant manager I was fortunate to have a great guy as my manager.

One thing he said was to learn something from everyone, including those you dislike. Even those you hate have some wisdom from which you can learn. 

I don’t dislike Mike, but discounting his method of disseminating his advice, he’s 100% correct. But he should have added one more sentence, stating that periodically through our personal and business lives, we all are subject to have done, and will continue to do, idiotic things. The key is to make more smart decisions than dumb costly ones. As important is knowing how to correct the dumb ones, and quickly.

Having correctly worded contracts, Change Orders, Additional Work Authorizations, Addendums, etc., is an inherent crucial part of any business - ANY business. But as I've stated here before, that requires that one kills the tradesman mentality and assumes a business mentality. How many times does one have to say: “From now on...........” or “Dammit! In the future......”, before s/he puts it in writing where it belongs, and gets signatures.

By not doing it, we indeed are idiots. In fact, we’re morons, and instead, should be working for some one with a brain. I used to tell my sons to treat every customer like family, but make your contracts as though each of them was out to screw you.

I also once read where the business book’s author stated: “It’s a cold hard fact of business life that there are no rewards for effort, only results. That applies here.


----------



## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

Stan, early on on my career, I got burned that way by a woman who left for a vacation, gave me a key and picked out the color - same color for the whole house.

That week I created a new system that takes no extra time but eliminated that problem forever:

Before doing the prep work and content protection, I brushed on the paint on a wall in the shadow and a wall in the sun. Maybe about 2’ sq areas on each wall. Ten I started the prop work. Before painting started I call him or her into the room, have them verify the color is right, and sign my contract which states: “On ..... date at...... time, owner approves two approximately 24” square samples of paint applied to one wall in a shadow and one wall in the sun. Paint is (brand, #, color) ”

I do a lot of painting and that until incident happened about 25 yrs. ago. I have not had a single incident since using my system. That's an example of what Mike is talking about.


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> F'kn A right!
> 
> You have a problem one time with a customer, you get out ole Microsoft word and edit your contract to cover the issue. You have the same problem twice, you're a fuk'n idiot and deserve it. You have the same problem three times you're not only an idiot, you would be better off working for somebody who is less of an idiot instead of pretending you know how to run your own business.
> 
> ...


Here is where your logic is wrong. This thread is about things customers will try to pull over on us as contractors. Even with an extremely detailed contract, there will be ****** that can be taken pierced.

Also, here is where your logic is wrong. No contract is going to prevent any customer from trying to pull some of these fast ones described in this thread. 

Nobody here has said they have been taken advantage of for the same reasons more than once. We are just sharing what we have come across in our daily dealings with HO's.

From what everybody has shared there are common "tricks" that some HO's will try to pull and we are trying to solidify a list to better know how to respond. IMO there is know way you could get around some of these "tricks".... even through a perfect contract(there is no such thing).

Mike, would you put in your contract a clause that says, "Homeowner cannot ask for a good deal because he has more work in the future"?

Or, as was the case with my client with the rotten trim, would you put a clause stating that HO cannot call me and ask if I come fix that for free? This HO was told when the door was installed it had a one tear warrantee(it was in the contract).

At some point on certain jobs you have to trust the people just as they trust you even without a contract. I have done hundreds of thousands of jobs without contacts and have been burned once for $500.

The other percentage of jobs I do with contacts is very small (less than 5% of sales per year). The biggest burn I ever received was when I had a red flag and made sure my contract was in "order" (lost 5K). It was not worth the fight in court even though I had a solid case.

So what I am getting at is the contract is not worth the ink it is written with if the persons doing business do not fullfill their end of the bargain. Also you could be writing a contract forever and ever and still not cover all your bases.

We are trying to name these tricks so we see them for what they are and can counter them "verbally". It would look silly to try to explain some of these in a contract.

Mike, you are a smart guy.


----------



## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

painterman said:


> For all the painters out there...this is my favorite  "thats not the colour I picked" gota love that one
> 
> Stan


Have this in your contract:

"A change of a colour, after work has started, is subject to extra
charges."


----------



## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Sonny Lykos said:


> Stan, early on on my career, I got burned that way by a woman who left for a vacation, gave me a key and picked out the color - same color for the whole house.
> 
> That week I created a new system that takes no extra time but eliminated that problem forever:
> 
> ...


We do as well and charge money to do that:

_"If required, we will paint a test patch in several areas of one room.
Cost is $30.00 per colour plus cost of sample paint."_


----------



## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

Excellent points, Gordo.

A few nights ago I again watched one of my favorite shows: “Numb3rs.”

So one of the reasons I created this thread is to help everyone in one of the most critical aspects of selling - qualifying, or "probabilities. One of the key actors in Numb3rs uses “probabilities” as a “tool” to solve crimes or “potential” crimes in the making, and by whom, when, where and to whom the crime will be against.

Qualifying and the use of probabilities becomes less important (but not unimportant) for those of us who enjoy more incoming calls for new projects than we can handle, than it does for someone who really needs the next job, and the one after that, or someone just starting, and especially if starting on a thin budget.

So one’s business sales status is a major factor of his/her importance of qualifying.

The results of the exercise of this thread should be to provide a sufficient amount of “numb3rs” for us to create a reasonably accurate rate of “probability” as to whether or not we should spend any time with a “potential” customer beyond that initial sales call, or even trust them. 

Think about all of the time spend after that initial sales call where the end result is to not even receive a courtesy call from the potential customer telling you they hired someone else.

Wouldn’t it be nice to have a list of probability factors for which to base time decisions upon, or whether or not to walk away from a job? Granted in some cases, we might decide to walk away from a potential job, but I’d rather unknowingly walk away from 1 potential good job out of 10 where the other 9 were going to be nonstarters anyway. That leaves me the time to concentrate on those jobs I either have, am currently working on, or due to the numb3rs, confident I’ll get, and get along with the customer.

This list we're creating is our own list of probabilities, that if taken seriously, should force us to arrive at a good business, not emotional, decision of where to draw a line. 

"I want (or need) that job" doesn't mean you should take it, especially if the list of "probabilities" tells you otherwise. Again, you never lose money on a job from which you walk away.


----------



## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

George, I guess getting burned is part of UHK - the University of Hard Knocks. And not many of us can afford to fail any courses in that University.


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Gordo you are 100% correct that no contract will totally protect you. But I can address 100% of everything posted here with an existing clause in my contracts. I'm not prefect by any means but I learn from my mistakes. I can't afford to make a mistake twice, I simply don't have that deep of pockets. I don't see why anybody else here needs to learn the hard way either.

What I have been taught by people who know much more than I ever will about contracts:

*A great contract is not designed to win your case in court, it is designed to give a customer second thoughts on ever questioning you, let alone filing a case in the first place.* 

If your contracts do that, they have done their job and you probably won't be getting these kinds of comments from your customers. Logic simply dictates to me that if you are getting these kinds of issues the problem lies in your contracts or how they are presented.

How many people here read their contracts clauses out loud to their customers while they follow along with their copy before they sign them? I think when a customer realizes that your contract basically sits you inside a buttoned up Abrams tank and he is standing naked in front of it with nothing but a straw and a spit ball, he becomes instantly educated that taking a shot at you will be a waste of time.


----------



## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

Do you ever wonder why customers do these things? 

Is it Human Nature, or do they learn this through the years?

Some business structures can contribute greatly to this problem...
I worked as a commisioned sales person for a company. The measurement of your success, quotas, bonuses, sales contests, etc. were all measured on total Gross Profit.

The problem with this structure is when you are close to having an order and the client plays games, you take the order for a reduced profit, and move on knowing that someone else will be dealing with this problem client (the installer). You just hope some profit is left, which is better than walking away with no profit, and all that time spent.

I do not know a commisioned sales person that would not drop price, or throw in a freebies to close a sales, nor do I know a sales manager that wouldn't agree to the concession. Lowes will discount 10% on a new kitchen just for asking. Champion Doors and Windows will offer a $100 discount per window from their $777 price just because the customer asks. 

So I think that some in our industry are teaching this mentality, or at least contributing to it's success. Trying to change this mindset will be difficult.

How many of the contractors on this forum pay full price for their trucks? (Note....Commisioned Salespeople) I beat em up good before I buy, does that make me any worse than my customers?


----------



## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

my favorite
don my wife/husband can't accept that cabinet door, it needs to be changed. (yes i have a clause covering wood grain & color ) but will traditionally order a replacment if they agree to withhold 75.00.


----------



## snapper21 (Mar 13, 2006)

Joe Carola said:


> That's Great!!!!!
> 
> That's got to be one of the most common one used.
> 
> One Builder told me that and said that he had 10 more houses for me to do and I said to him that If I signed a contract with him for those ten houses plus his which would be eleven houses total that I would see what I can do on his house. Until then the price stays as is.


Thats the one I always get. They want the frequent customer discount prior to being a frequent customer.


----------



## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

Pearce, I my life I've paid the price I was quoted for my truck and cars. However, I also told the salesman that whenever I brought a car or truck for service, I expected to get the type of service I should get since they got the price they expected. Since I always notified the salesman when I brought a vehicle in for service, I was never disappointed.

I may be different than the normal person, but I almost never look for deals nor give them. As I told a customer recently, it's mere money, not my life, and I value service, and time, more than I value money. I can always make money. I can neither "make" service nor make time.


----------



## TigerFan (Apr 11, 2006)

Gordo said:


> At some point on certain jobs you have to trust the people just as they trust you even without a contract. I have done hundreds of thousands of jobs without contacts and have been burned once for $500.


Um, with all due respect, Gordo, you would have to do 5 jobs a day, every single day, 365 days a year for the past 55 years to have done the most minimal "hundreds of thousands of jobs". I call bull****. (that's for 100,005 jobs).


tf


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

TigerFan said:


> Um, with all due respect, Gordo, you would have to do 5 jobs a day, every single day, 365 days a year for the past 55 years to have done the most minimal "hundreds of thousands of jobs". I call bull****. (that's for 100,005 jobs).
> 
> 
> tf


Correction.....Hundreds of thousands dollars in sales in jobs. Thank you for pointing that out.

You bring up an interesting question. How many jobs have I really performed? I will go back and see if I can figure that out.


----------



## widco (Jan 16, 2004)

---


----------



## mas2006 (Mar 18, 2006)

*What ever.*

Sounds perfectly logical to me. :thumbsup:


----------



## dem50 (Jan 8, 2005)

*Sonnys post*

Hello, I must admit I do not post very often on this great web site, but I read many posts, and I have to thank guys like Sonny for their much appreciated words of wisdom and knowledge, long may they continue.

I have been lucky in my career to have worked with great Tradesman when learning my trade and have learned greatly from them.

You cannot buy knowledge like that.


Just a small line to say Thanks. :thumbsup:


----------



## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Gordo said:


> Correction.....Hundreds of thousands dollars in sales in jobs. Thank you for pointing that out.
> 
> You bring up an interesting question. How many jobs have I really performed? I will go back and see if I can figure that out.


Gordo,
Another va. beach contractor huh? Sonny is a great mentor to many and I see he left JLC for here. His threads are enlightening regarding sales and marketing, watch those political challenges though,,,,just kidding Sonny.


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Shellbuilder said:


> Gordo,
> Another va. beach contractor huh? Sonny is a great mentor to many and I see he left JLC for here. His threads are enlightening regarding sales and marketing, watch those political challenges though,,,,just kidding Sonny.


 Shell,
Your thread on JLC concerning your branding of Shell Homes and Additions was very interesting. I like your business model you have set up. It seems to fit a good segment of the market around here.

Where is Sonny? Is he busy with work? Or did he get PO'd at the last thread we had where everybody got touchy/feely?

Come back Sonny. We are waiting for some wisdom. We miss your insight!


----------



## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Gordo said:


> Shell,
> Your thread on JLC concerning your branding of Shell Homes and Additions was very interesting. I like your business model you have set up. It seems to fit a good segment of the market around here.
> 
> Where is Sonny? Is he busy with work? Or did he get PO'd at the last thread we had where everybody got touchy/feely?
> ...


At one time Gordo I had a 2 mill a year remodel biz home based at London Bridge Shopping center. The shell biz is the last paragraph of my career. Wish I had started the shell thing 15 years ago but I stay swamped, almost always in Thoroughgood. Where are you, I did not see your co. name on TBA list


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Shellbuilder said:


> At one time Gordo I had a 2 mill a year remodel biz home based at London Bridge Shopping center. The shell biz is the last paragraph of my career. Wish I had started the shell thing 15 years ago but I stay swamped, almost always in Thoroughgood. Where are you, I did not see your co. name on TBA list



Yes I remember your office at London Bridge (I grew up in Kenstock of off Old Great Neck Rd.). Used to go to Johns Barber shop for hair cuts. Man things have changed. Broyles Construction rang a bell when I linked to your web page via JLC.

We work in what I call the "circle of influence".That is the area around the water from Great Neck to Shore Drive and around Independence. We also have clients up at the north end. These are the areas we predominantly work.....there are exceptions if the $ is right. We just finished a kitchen remodel in Thoroughgood on Curtiss Dr. and a bathroom on Delray. Starting one at Aires on the bay next week.
Right now we are finishing an interior trim job/exterior siding package on a custom home in Birdneck Point on Tanager.

We have been in business for 10 years (all word of mouth). Just joined TBA 2 years ago because I liked their insurance program. PM me for more specifics on the company name and my real name. I just want to stay anonomous on the internet just because you never know who is lurking and may perceive things in the wrong manner.


----------



## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

email me at [email protected]
This site doesn't allow pm until you have posted 20 times.
Kenstock...i grew up in Point O Woods and framed most of Kenstock, even the crap back in the 70s


----------



## Sonny Lykos (Mar 11, 2006)

Gordo, I’m not PO’d. As a man whose been married for 42 years and with two adult daughters, I’m used to the touchy feely stuff from women. And we need that as well as the Hitler type of which I was occasionally accused of being while raising our 4 kids. Good cop (Mom) - bad cop (me) so to speak. But my kids turned out to be those I am proud of, so Barb and I did something right together.

That being said, business has no place for big/serious mistakes. Let me repeat that. Business has no place for big/serious mistakes. It’s not a matter of just repainting a bedroom that was initially painted the wrong color. And hand holding applies to customers, employees, grand kids and a certain amount with one’s own kids - not toward business owners who make business life threatening mistakes. One big one and you’re not only out of business, but financially ruined as well, possibly for life. Read the small print on anyone's liability insurance contract. And women business owners and CEOs of big businesses know that as well. And those who are business owners, know that touchy-feely will never replace a slap in the back of the head when one has broken a serious business tenet that has placed the business itself in jeopardy.

Example: Son Tom just lost $28,000 on about a $300,000 job., How? Easy! The Super specifically told the Project Manager to not change a closet door until the last day of the job. And to meanwhile, keep it locked. Among other things were some heirloom items in that closet. Well, a couple of weeks before finishing the job the door was unlocked, and the “stuff” removed and placed in a corner of the room and covered. This was done by the PM, a real cocky know-it-all The heirloom items subsequently disappeared. The husband literally cried when he found out, and refused to pay the final 28 grand. Tom’s liability would not cover the loss. So Tom did that job for nothing since his net profit will not be paid.

SYSTEMS! Create them. Train them to your staff . Monitor them. Assure they are adhered too. Quickly fire those who will not or can not do so. Business is COLD - not touchy-feely.

Regardless of the mistakes our employees make, it’s OUR money. It’s OUR license. It’s our financial future. It’s OUR reputation. And it’s OUR responsibility. Any employee can be fired, quit or whatever, but WE are stuck with what they do for many years. So when it’s the business owner who perpetuates an incredible situation, one must wonder what else is there that we do not know about. Being a ”nice guy” like the antelope, only gets his throat ripped out by the lion when the opportunity serves that lion.

Again, business is COLD! One can be s tactful as s/he wants, but that person must never forget the potential end result of major screw ups. Money reigns - almost always - when the public is involved. Remember what I mentioned in a previous posts that has been thrown at probably every one of us: “It’s not personal, Joe. It’s only business.” meaning of course, it’s all about MONEY! And s/he will slit your throat for it, as Active from another thread has since learned.

Now that I’ve clearly stated my position, I have been very busy. I receive about a dozen magazines each month and for the last month they have been sitting on my desk unread. I normally have about 30 - 35 jobs on the books at any given time, but for the last few weeks it’s been around 45-53. I raised my labor rate but they just keep on coming. And I'm getting older and more tired. So I’m thinking of not doing any more jobs for private parties other than repeat customers - no more from referrals, and concentrate on better serving my condo associations and their respective property managers. The vast majority of those jobs do not require an estimate or Proposal first. They just notify me of the job to be done and tell me to do to and invoice them. And often where a price is asked, it’s usually only for a ball park.

Consequently, I will probably only reply to new threads where I feel I can contribute something of value.


----------



## asbestos (Mar 22, 2006)

I have an issue with real estate agents. They Seem to think it is fine for them to make $9,000 for 50 hours of work (15 hours on the listing and 35 hussling listings) but for you to make $1000 for 20 hours of work is 'expensive' I say "well you can allways get that kid you pay $10 an hour to do it." 
This one needed to get a bunch of inspection items fixed and I told the HO $500 for all, materials included. She started to pipe up and he said "great" and shot her a look as he was reaching to sign. Since then I have done other jobs for her clients since then and she has been taught to see the value in a price to 'make it go away'


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Thanks Sonny. Good to hear you are doing good.


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

This thread parallels the one started by Ed.


----------



## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Gordo ... i've been reading this thread for so long now that I've forgotten who Ed or his thread were


:laughing:


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> Gordo ... i've been reading this thread for so long now that I've forgotten who Ed or his thread were
> 
> 
> :laughing:


There are some good nuggets in there...as well as Eds Thread.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

When I saw this thread pop up, at first I thought Sonny Lycos was back here posting again.

If you ever want to get a life-times worth of knowledge and an ethical business philosophy packed into several hours, just read through all of the threads and posts that Sonny took part in.

If you had to choose several posters from this board to read all of their posts, who would it be for the best business knowledge?

Ed


----------



## airborneSGT (Feb 19, 2007)

I am probably repeating what others have said so forgive me. I have a client get upset at my bid for a job in a very nice home in which I knew I was covering my costs and yet being competitive. He pulled the same "Well I am a project manager and work for a G.C. in NY so I know what it costs to do xyz...." Moreover, he was also surprised that "they make you get a contractor's license in FL?" 

If anyone were to read this website or even have a clue about the costs of doing business in different areas you would think that pricing being linked to your market would be common sense.


----------



## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

to some common sense seems to out of reach!:whistling


----------



## airborneSGT (Feb 19, 2007)

In my contracting class the instructor called it the common sense which was not so common.


----------



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Wow I got nothing done reading this post for the last 30 minutes. It was very good though. I would like to organize and copy the 10-13 rules listed and post them in my office. I have encountered all of them at some point. Seeing all them reminds me that everyone goes through these things all the time from all over its almost laughable. Like I said in the past if you can do your own contracting business you can do anything.


----------

