# Are “Illegal” Immigrants Squeezing The Home Renovation And Home Building Industry



## TNTRenovate

Jaws said:


> Rob, he is from the United States. He is an American living abroad. I dont agree with a lot that he says, but no where in his post you qouted did he mention illegals. He said immigrants.
> 
> I choose not to voice my opinion on how to stop illegal immigration, but you can bet it would involve jail time for using them as an employer.
> 
> Legals and illegals are completely seperate. If you think we have enough immigrants here, speak to your congressman. I have, so
> far it hasnt worked.


Like I said LIVING in another country, not from another country. Unless you LIVE here STFU.

The subject is ILLEGALS. What reason did he mention immigrants? It's the same liberal montra any time a law abiding citizen complains about illegal immigrants. They always say that's how this country was built. It's just not true.


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## brunothedog

TNTSERVICES said:


> Unless you live here, STFU. I cannot stand people in other countries telling me or anyone else how we should feel about what is going on here.
> 
> I have no sympathy for you or your family and what comes of your illegal act. We also need to change the born here laws, which were never meant to used as they are today.



Legal or illegal is a recent term. I'll bet your ancesters didn't have sponsers when they stepped foot in America.
Or are you an Indian


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## Jaws

I am as American as they come, bro. I have lived abroad, my brother was born in Europe. He is as American as I am. 

If I moved to Venezuela to build some oil compounds, am I not an American? Do I lose my American privileges? I think not.


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## Jaws

Keep the conversation civil, or yall will have some time to think about. No insults. 

This is a relative conversation, no reason it should be trashed, dont push it.


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## TNTRenovate

brunothedog said:


> You should take some history classes.
> I've am an American, as my kids are. and being an American i have the right to choose where I work, live and play.
> 
> I own a lot of property, commercial and residential, pay taxes, many taxes, I even have Mexicans look after my landscaping
> I reread your last post, You pig, I think people like you are the destruction of the work force.
> making a buck off of someone elses hard work.
> 
> I do what I gotta do and I don't complain, stop your whining,


Seems that I know more about our history than you. Maybe you can show me where I am wrong.

You and Jaws need to really stop and read my post. I never said that you were not a citizen of America. What I said was LIVING in this country.

I don't care what taxes you pay. You don't live here. When you do, I may consider your opinion as viable.

What does it matter who you hire to mow you lawn? What does that prove. Personally, I don't care what the color of someone's skin is as long as they are here legally and do work the work legally.

I am a pig? Coming from you, that is a compliment.

I only make money off of my back. No one else's. I also don't come on here and have to brag how great I am. I was always taught that if a man has to brag about what he is, it means that he usually isn't. My work speaks for itself.


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## brunothedog

I got edited, darn

I dont insult, I just wanna have some fun

legal, or illegal,whatever term makes you sleep good at night, Have always been hammered on for the downfall of construction, bul****

years back they used terms, Union or non Union.


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## Easy Gibson

Wait, so Bruno speaks English as a first language?

That kills the whole accent I've been putting on his posts while I read them in my head.

****.


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## TNTRenovate

Jaws said:


> TNTSERVICES said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said LIVING in another country, not from another country. Unless you LIVE here STFU./QUOTE]
> 
> Thats ignorant in my estimation.
> 
> I am as American as they come, bro. I have lived abroad, my brother was born in Europe. He is as American as I am.
> 
> If I moved to Venezuela to build some oil compounds, am I not an American? Do I lose my American privileges? I think not.
> 
> 
> 
> Never said that. You really gotta stop putting words into my mouth. I just said that unless he LIVES here he doesn't have a right to speak up and tell people to stop whining. He doesn't have to deal with it, so what does his opinion matter? To me, nothing.
> 
> I was born in Texas. I haven't lived there in 20+ years. Even though I still have family there and get updates on what goes on there, I really have no right to act like I know what it is to deal with whatever it is going on there. And to think that I could is truly ignorant.
Click to expand...


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## Jaws

TNTSERVICES said:


> Seems that I know more about our history than you. Maybe you can show me where I am wrong.
> 
> You and Jaws need to really stop and read my post. I never said that you were not a citizen of America. What I said was LIVING in this country.
> 
> I don't care what taxes you pay. You don't live here. When you do, I may consider your opinion as viable.
> 
> What does it matter who you hire to mow you lawn? What does that prove. Personally, I don't care what the color of someone's skin is as long as they are here legally and do work the work legally.
> 
> I am a pig? Coming from you, that is a compliment.
> 
> I only make money off of my back. No one else's. I also don't come on here and have to brag how great I am. I was always taught that if a man has to brag about what he is, it means that he usually isn't. My work speaks for itself.


Rob, im not being argumentative. You just arent makjng sense to me.

Are you saying or troops, or an ambassador, or a rough neck or whatever living abroad no longer have a voice here with you?


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## brunothedog

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am a pig? Coming from you, that is a compliment.


I do shine thru sometimes:thumbup:


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## Jaws

TNTSERVICES said:


> Jaws said:
> 
> 
> 
> Never said that. You really gotta stop putting words into my mouth. I just said that unless he LIVES here he doesn't have a right to speak up and tell people to stop whining. He doesn't have to deal with it, so what does his opinion matter? To me, nothing.
> 
> I was born in Texas. I haven't lived there in 20+ years. Even though I still have family there and get updates on what goes on there, I really have no right to act like I know what it is to deal with whatever it is going on there. And to think that I could is truly ignorant.
> 
> 
> 
> I see your point, but you aren't a citizen of Texas. We lost the republic :laughing:
Click to expand...


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## TNTRenovate

brunothedog said:


> Legal or illegal is a recent term. I'll bet your ancesters didn't have sponsers when they stepped foot in America.
> Or are you an Indian


They obeyed the laws of the day. That's pretty simple. But we don't have those laws any longer. Laws change. But there was still a LEGAL process that my ancestors took.

And yes I have quite a bit of Native American blood in me. SO there!


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## TNTRenovate

Jaws said:


> TNTSERVICES said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see your point, but you aren't a citizen of Texas. We lost the republic :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> I still have my Texas Passport and the hell I ain't!
Click to expand...


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## TNTRenovate

brunothedog said:


> I got edited, darn
> 
> I dont insult, I just wanna have some fun
> 
> legal, or illegal,whatever term makes you sleep good at night, Have always been hammered on for the downfall of construction, bul****
> 
> years back they used terms, Union or non Union.


It's pretty simple. Legal means that you didn't BREAK the law.

And Union is still a valid reason, just look at any industry dominated by it. Guess where those jobs are going. I bet Detroit would love to get that one back.


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## TNTRenovate

Jaws said:


> Rob, im not being argumentative. You just arent makjng sense to me.
> 
> Are you saying or troops, or an ambassador, or a rough neck or whatever living abroad no longer have a voice here with you?


Sure I am. If you live abroad and are not experiencing what is going on here, how can you give an informed opinion on the matter.

I also think it's the way you do it. Telling people to stop whining about something, that is legit, when you don't live here and haven't in many years, is BS. It's just to get a rise out of people. I have no problem telling them to STFU.


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## TNTRenovate

Jaws said:


> Rob, im not being argumentative. You just arent makjng sense to me.
> 
> Are you saying or troops, or an ambassador, or a rough neck or whatever living abroad no longer have a voice here with you?


All of those are also temp assignments, but still how would a soldier, dodging bullets for 9 months know, really know, what is going on back here and be able to make an educated comment?

But yeah pretty much. They could no more tell me that they know what is going on in Aurora.


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## Jaws

TNTSERVICES said:


> All of those are also temp assignments, but still how would a soldier, dodging bullets for 9 months know, really know, what is going on back here and be able to make an educated comment?
> 
> But yeah pretty much. They could no more tell me that they know what is going on in Aurora.


Id still be voting Republican :laughing:

If a soilder dodging bullets, told me to quit whining, I would not say STFU.


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## TNTRenovate

Jaws said:


> Id still be voting Republican :laughing:
> 
> If a soilder dodging bullets, told me to quit whining, I would not say STFU.


Neither would I. But Bruno is bricklayer in another country, not a soldier off defending my freedom. So to even suggest or imply that I would is a bit below the belt. I have several family members that have served this country and are serving this country.

But like I said a soldier or ambassador has every intention of coming back and not sitting in another country telling us to stop whining.


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## Jaws

tntservices said:


> neither would i. But bruno is bricklayer in another country, not a soldier off defending my freedom. So to even suggest or imply that i would is a bit below the belt. I have several family members that have served this country and are serving this country.
> 
> But like i said a soldier or ambassador has every intention of coming back and not sitting in another country telling us to stop whining.


i didnt imply it, you said it, i qouted it


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## TNTRenovate

Jaws said:


> i didnt imply it, you said it, i qouted it


Really? I told a soldier to STFU? Hmmm...here I thought that it was bricklayer in another country. My bad.


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## Jaws

Californiadecks said:


> So with that said, I think any openings for legal immigration should be reserved for those people that want to be an American because of our values and culture, not just want our Chit. We do that with minimal requirements, even if those requirements takes years of commitment. In other words, they can live here but have to reach minimal goals of education, such as learn English, our political system so they can be informed voters, also learn the laws of our country. I don't think that would be asking a lot.


I can't go into what I believe would solve the situation, but I agree. Any real American would. 

Problem is the wusses we elect are wusses, the left are bringing in votes and the right are trading our freedoms for votes. There is no middle. 

I will be the minority in my state very soon. Took it back without firing a shot. Be nice if they were all legal, but that is not the situation. 

Adapt and overcome. Be the diamond in the rough. Otherwise get a job a Home Depot.


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## Jaws

....


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## greg24k

I don't think they squeeze anything... They provide cheap labor and the do jobs which professional contractor will not do.
There is many business owners who come from South America who are citizens and they run companies, and so is the employers and if they're not, who cared, as long as the company owner is insured and bonded.

With that said, they're good workers and they do a good job. Take for example my roofing contractor, a nice guy from Mexico, been in business about 15 years and did for me about 25 jobs and not one issue.
My siding guy is from Poland, did every house I built, been in business 25 years and not one issue, not even a siding pop.
My flooring guys from Brazil, been doing work for me almost 30 years, not one issue.

This is professional people who work as hard as we do and they're good at what they do. Not to mention when was the last time anyone saw an American roofer, framer or a landscaper? I haven't in about 25 years. Because they are busy getting drunk and losing theirs driver licenses and can't get to work. 
The reality is kids today don't go into construction trade, not like it use to be 3 decades ago, they would drop out of school and do construction because it was booming economy and it paid good.
As years went by and generations changed and kids became spoiled, not to mention parents tells them the education is important, you have to go to college and get an office job, so most kids do that, they get a student debt of about 100k when they done and the majority will sit and rot in some office for 30k a year if they're lucky.

Very few will follow in theirs family footsteps and become blue color workers. That is why people from others countries taking over the industry, and the only reason they do is because they want to work... Americans without jobs stay home and play video games and collect unemployment, what is it today, you collect for 2 years? and what you get about 300-500 every 2 weeks?Who needs a job with this? But when you ask them why you don't work... they will tell you all the illegals take the work from them.

It's all BS IMO.


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## TiM Management

blacktop said:


> They have ruined the drywall trade.. No one really cares about the man that has real bills to pay. BUT..Try finding a 20 year old in this country willing to hang sheetrock :laughing: What really chaps me Is paying a man half of what he's worth no matter who or where he's from .Taking advantage of a man's hard labor just because you can seems very wrong to me. I could write a book on this topic ,,But it's best I don't..:whistling


I've been hanging (commercially mostly) since I was 20. Made good money so far doing it. If you're one of the best in your area, there's always a lot of money to be made, no matter what you're doing (drywall, framing, trim, etc). Being able to do more than everyone else, also can make yourself more efficient and competitive as far as pricing. Could it be more lucrative without "illegals", or just flat out morons hanging for $80 cash a day? Yes, but this is where we are at right now, so you have to adapt and overcome. I can say this, the illegals can't touch me in a commercial drywall atmosphere.


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## pcplumber

*Question is!*

The question is; are the illegals taking our work and the answer is definitely a, 'yes." Go to Home Depot and watch the thousands of non-English speaking customers pushing building materials through the cash registers. 

Between the DIY's, the illegal immigrants, and the unlicensed Americans I am guessing that they take no less than 50% of the legal contractor's work. That means we would have two times more work every day all year long. But, then some would get licensed and we would have about 35% more more work.

Whether you like illegals being here is an entirely separate subject. It seems like we can't live with them nor without them because they play a big part in our economy. We need to figure out a way to have them pay into the tax system.


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## TNTRenovate

greg24k said:


> I don't think they squeeze anything... They provide cheap labor and the do jobs which professional contractor will not do
> 
> Like what? Prior to the proliferation of illegal workers the jobs still got done. I think this is one of the lamest things to say when discussing illegal immigration. There is no job that is just sitting there waiting for an under paid illegal. What is really true is that they are willing to do those jobs for less. And why? Is it because they are more humble? or eager? No, they just want our dollar. Our dollar that is worth more to them in their country than ours.
> 
> There is many business owners who come from South America who are citizens and they run companies, and so is the employers and if they're not, who cared, as long as the company owner is insured and bonded.
> 
> With that said, they're good workers and they do a good job. Take for example my roofing contractor, a nice guy from Mexico, been in business about 15 years and did for me about 25 jobs and not one issue.
> 
> My siding guy is from Poland, did every house I built, been in business 25 years and not one issue, not even a siding pop.
> My flooring guys from Brazil, been doing work for me almost 30 years, not one issue.
> 
> You are talking about Legal immigrants. NO ONE, and I will REPEAT NO ONE has suggested or said that only people born in American can do good work. This is about *Illegal Immagrants*.
> 
> Why do people get stuck on stupid when talking about illegals and want to discuss legal immigrants.
> 
> This is professional people who work as hard as we do and they're good at what they do. Not to mention when was the last time anyone saw an American roofer, framer or a landscaper? I haven't in about 25 years. Because they are busy getting drunk and losing theirs driver licenses and can't get to work.
> 
> The reality is kids today don't go into construction trade, not like it use to be 3 decades ago, they would drop out of school and do construction because it was booming economy and it paid good.
> As years went by and generations changed and kids became spoiled, not to mention parents tells them the education is important, you have to go to college and get an office job, so most kids do that, they get a student debt of about 100k when they done and the majority will sit and rot in some office for 30k a year if they're lucky.
> 
> It really started when the vocational classes where dropped from high school.
> 
> Very few will follow in theirs family footsteps and become blue color workers. That is why people from others countries taking over the industry, and the only reason they do is because they want to work...
> 
> They want the all mighty dollar.
> 
> Americans without jobs stay home and play video games and collect unemployment, what is it today, you collect for 2 years? and what you get about 300-500 every 2 weeks?Who needs a job with this? But when you ask them why you don't work... they will tell you all the illegals take the work from them.
> 
> Again, this is just not true. I know many out of work people and they don't do any of that. You cannot deny that the illegal aliens working under the table and without proper insurance, business expenses and no training negatively effect this industry.
> 
> It's all BS IMO.


What's BS is people coming here illegally and working illegally. It's pretty simple.


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## flashheatingand

Truth be told,The way we, the white man, obtained this land, California territories, and Hawaii is questionable/BS as well. Maybe this immigration thing is just one of those things thats biting us in the ace.


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## brunothedog

TNTSERVICES said:


> What's BS is people coming here illegally and working illegally. It's pretty simple.


you have issues:wallbash:


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## TNTRenovate

brunothedog said:


> you have issues:wallbash:


Yes with illegals and out of country and bags.


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## brunothedog

no such thing as "illegals" that is all "politically correct" terms.
"GIVE ME YOUR TIRED, POOR, " etc...

You seem to have forgot YOUR COUNTRY'S history. 
My Great Grand father, by todays new "Terms" would be considered a illegal.
And you dare to talk negative about his sacrifices and hardships.

You sir "ARE" the problems you think USA has, not them
They come to america for a better life for them, and their kids, as mine have, and you have only racist thoughts and anger?

Im sorry, but, 

I'm a *******, but you my friend are beyond thought


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## Jaws

flashheatingand said:


> Truth be told,The way we, the white man, obtained this land, California territories, and Hawaii is questionable/BS as well. Maybe this immigration thing is just one of those things thats biting us in the ace.


Dont forget Texas.


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## greg24k

TNTSERVICES said:


> What's BS is people coming here illegally and working illegally. It's pretty simple.


People been working illegally all the time in one form or another. People who work illegal stand on the street and waiting to be picked up. Why do people come and pick them up... because there is shortage of laborers, who will actually work. 
Keep in mind to get a guy off the street will cost you 100 a day... I don't remember when last time my phone rang and someone asked me if I am looking for a worker. I think last time it was 30 years ago.

With that said, I see everybody talking about this guys taking jobs, well I guess if people wanted to work and they would be calling places or stopping by the job sites (like I'm sure we all did at one time or another) this guys with no papers wouldn't have a job, because I'm sure people who hire them prefer an English speaking person so they don't have to explain what needs to be done with a dictionary.

Lets not forget who hires this guys... Legitimate Contractors, you go down to where they hang out between 7-8 there is traffic and if you get there to late, you not gonna find anyone.
I guess there is no needed work force in this Country or people don't want to work... and if not the landscapers, laborers, roofers, etc the industry will take a such a hit nobody will make any money... and everybody knows that, why do you think they all hanging out and nothing being done, because politicians know there is no work force left in this country and that is the only people who do the work.


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## TNTRenovate

brunothedog said:


> no such thing as "illegals" that is all "politically correct" terms.
> "GIVE ME YOUR TIRED, POOR, " etc...
> 
> You seem to have forgot YOUR COUNTRY'S history.
> My Great Grand father, by todays new "Terms" would be considered a illegal.
> And you dare to talk negative about his sacrifices and hardships.
> 
> You sir "ARE" the problems you think USA has, not them
> They come to america for a better life for them, and their kids, as mine have, and you have only racist thoughts and anger?
> 
> Im sorry, but,
> 
> I'm a *******, but you my friend are beyond thought


Like California said, the history of this country was built on people who wanted to be apart of something. Something that could not be found anywhere in the world. 

They came here legally and contributed, they did things legal and right. Legal is not a PC TERM, it's a defined term. It is clear that you have read the comic book version of history. Try educating yourself before opening your mouth.


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## pibe

Californiadecks said:


> As a person that's lived in southern Cali for 45 years, I see your from here also Rio, so your going to know what I mean. I've talked to some of these illegals, I would say most that I've met don't want to be Americans. They just want our Chit. A large percentage come down here make money to send home. A lot of them make the money and go home to open a business down there. This is a total different mentality then immigrants that came here through Ellis Island. Those folks were proud to have a chance to become an American. They wanted to be Americans, learn the language and respect the new way of life.



This is very true. Living in the same town for quite some time i am friends with many of the business owner around here. And all of the businesses owned by said immigrants make a huge effort to keep all their money with their own people and pretty much hate america(americans). Down to every part of their business...all distributors are mexican, dont use banks, on and on. They absolutely do not want to be apart of anything or remotely involved in anything american.

As well, many of the immigrants ive worked with/around have stated their goal is live as meagerly as humanly possible while saving a large sum of money to move back to mexico. I know personally two painters who have done this and are gone now.(they also lived with 2 other painters and all 4 of their families together in one house with 2 vans so they could bid jobs for next to nothing)

Some of the friendliest most hard working people but its just a whole different mindset from past. Where at first it may have been "hey im gonna try and learn a trade, make something of myself, grow a business, be able to purchase a small home and support my family" Its now "Im going to live this lowest possible standard of living with 11 other people in my home while undercutting everyone so i can get enough money to leave"

And currently seems like there is not much going to change about any of it.


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## TxElectrician

greg24k said:


> Lets not forget who hires this guys... Legitimate Contractors, you go down to where they hang out between 7-8 there is traffic and if you get there to late, you not gonna find anyone.
> .


There's no such thing as a legitimate contractor that hires illegals.


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## Jaws

TxElectrician said:


> There's no such thing as a legitimate contractor that hires illegals.


Out of thanks.


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## ready to roll

As far as the residential work out here in southern cali, it's been my experience that homeowners would rather deal with americans. The one or two man operation has an advantage over the Illegal operation in my opinion, and I've been working residential since the 70's.


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## tombeck

As Californiadecks said....Their appetite/stomach's are in the USA, but their hearts are in Mexico....and that's the simple truth of the matter


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## fast fred

typical contractor bs right here read all 5 pages

every contractor is smarter, better, bigger, follows the rules, does everything perfect, on and on so far that your crying a river as big as the mississippi

if a customer wants cheap than a customer gets cheap, so why does any holier than perfect contractor on this site even consider someone who uses illegals their competition, they are not your competition

how many of you personally know any illegal people? I actually know lots of them they all demand good wages, and are upstanding people who I'm glad I know. Their stories of why they are here will tug your little heart strings out. Most of them aren't here to take your job from you.

At the end of the day I'm looking for quality tradesman. I don't care where they are from and what color they are.

I'll hire anyone that has tools and a brain and provides only the best labor possible. The only condition is don't bring your baggage, your ten kids, your six ex wives, your need for a check every other day, your drug and alcohol problems, your endless court appearances, my having to send half of your check to child support, your constantly broken down car, lazy americans will give you more excuses than reasons why they want to excel at work every day.

and you wonder why


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## blacktop

greg24k said:


> I don't think they squeeze anything... They provide cheap labor and the do jobs which professional contractor will not do.
> There is many business owners who come from South America who are citizens and they run companies, and so is the employers and if they're not, who cared, as long as the company owner is insured and bonded.
> 
> With that said, they're good workers and they do a good job. Take for example my roofing contractor, a nice guy from Mexico, been in business about 15 years and did for me about 25 jobs and not one issue.
> My siding guy is from Poland, did every house I built, been in business 25 years and not one issue, not even a siding pop.
> My flooring guys from Brazil, been doing work for me almost 30 years, not one issue.
> 
> This is professional people who work as hard as we do and they're good at what they do. Not to mention when was the last time anyone saw an American roofer, framer or a landscaper? I haven't in about 25 years. Because they are busy getting drunk and losing theirs driver licenses and can't get to work.
> The reality is kids today don't go into construction trade, not like it use to be 3 decades ago, they would drop out of school and do construction because it was booming economy and it paid good.
> As years went by and generations changed and kids became spoiled, not to mention parents tells them the education is important, you have to go to college and get an office job, so most kids do that, they get a student debt of about 100k when they done and the majority will sit and rot in some office for 30k a year if they're lucky.
> 
> Very few will follow in theirs family footsteps and become blue color workers. That is why people from others countries taking over the industry, and the only reason they do is because they want to work... Americans without jobs stay home and play video games and collect unemployment, what is it today, you collect for 2 years? and what you get about 300-500 every 2 weeks?Who needs a job with this? But when you ask them why you don't work... they will tell you all the illegals take the work from them.
> 
> It's all BS IMO.





greg24k said:


> People been working illegally all the time in one form or another. People who work illegal stand on the street and waiting to be picked up. Why do people come and pick them up... because there is shortage of laborers, who will actually work.
> Keep in mind to get a guy off the street will cost you 100 a day... I don't remember when last time my phone rang and someone asked me if I am looking for a worker. I think last time it was 30 years ago.
> 
> With that said, I see everybody talking about this guys taking jobs, well I guess if people wanted to work and they would be calling places or stopping by the job sites (like I'm sure we all did at one time or another) this guys with no papers wouldn't have a job, because I'm sure people who hire them prefer an English speaking person so they don't have to explain what needs to be done with a dictionary.
> 
> Lets not forget who hires this guys... Legitimate Contractors, you go down to where they hang out between 7-8 there is traffic and if you get there to late, you not gonna find anyone.
> I guess there is no needed work force in this Country or people don't want to work... and if not the landscapers, laborers, roofers, etc the industry will take a such a hit nobody will make any money... and everybody knows that, why do you think they all hanging out and nothing being done, because politicians know there is no work force left in this country and that is the only people who do the work.


......:thumbsup: I agree 100% sad but true!


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## ASInsulation

The problem is that they are coming here to make this money and taking it back home where the value is drastically increased. Yet, if I take that same dollar I make here and attempt to build a house under the table there for dirt cheap, that is illegal. Figure that out.

The key word here is ILLEGAL. Period. There is no more argument after that. If we are giving them a free pass, then lets give free passes for DWI's, drug dealers, people who skip on child support, and the list goes on. It is a strain on this economy. That cheap labor you think you are paying them is actually quite expensive when you account for all their food stamps and charity care and section 8 that your taxes are paying for them as well. Open your eyes! Its not simply a strain on this business, it is a strain on the economy as a whole.


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## Jaws

ASInsulation said:


> The problem is that they are coming here to make this money and taking it back home where the value is drastically increased. Yet, if I take that same dollar I make here and attempt to build a house under the table there for dirt cheap, that is illegal. Figure that out.
> 
> The key word here is ILLEGAL. Period. There is no more argument after that. If we are giving them a free pass, then lets give free passes for DWI's, drug dealers, people who skip on child support, and the list goes on. It is a strain on this economy. That cheap labor you think you are paying them is actually quite expensive when you account for all their food stamps and charity care and section 8 that your taxes are paying for them as well. Open your eyes! Its not simply a strain on this business, it is a strain on the economy as a whole.


Out of thanks


----------



## EricBrancard

Californiadecks said:


> In other words, they can live here but have to reach minimal goals of education, such as learn English, our political system so they can be informed voters, also learn the laws of our country. I don't think that would be asking a lot.


We don't even get that from more than 1/2 the people who were born citizens.


----------



## Easy Gibson

It seems like a lot of you guys are the type that would have supported prohibition.

"But it's the law!"

There are lots of laws that are stupid. When TNT made reference to people's ancestors coming here "legally" who wanted to assimilate he wasn't entirely, or in a way, at all correct.

Like I said earlier, my Italian relatives came here quite illegally in their early teens without speaking any English. There weren't quotas at the time, but you were supposed to have a sponsor. I think somebody held a door open for my great great uncle, but I know his little brother, my great great grandfather just straight up sneaked in. No Ellis Island. He came here with the intention of being an America. He never went back to Italy. Never saw his family again. He started a new family here. He opened a shop in Newark. Eventually he bought a house, etc. He started an American family. 
There were tons of people opposing him just like there are the Mexicans of today. 

It's not so black and white in terms of legal/illegal. Those are manmade terms and they don't define the emotional part of the human experience. Have a little compassion. Just on a case by case basis. If a guy comes here to mooch off our system, call him an a-hole. If a guy sneaks in and wants to learn English and work his ass off for $100/day, give that man a god damn hammer.


----------



## Easy Gibson

EricBrancard said:


> We don't even get that from more than 1/2 the people who were born citizens.



Seriously. You ever tried to find an American kid that wants to work and doesn't have a sense of entitlement the size of the Grand Canyon?
My last company tried like hell to find an English speaking white kid. They're work deficiencies more than overshadowed most the Latinos language deficiencies.


----------



## Calidecks

EricBrancard said:


> We don't even get that from more than 1/2 the people who were born citizens.


So, are you saying they shouldn't have to learn anything? How about this, lets make them have to at least pass the tests required from high school kids, like a GED I think what I proposed in the other thread is a lot easier for them. They have to have something to contribute besides picking tomatoes. It can't only be what's in their best interest, it more-so should be what's in this countries best interest. Also it should not be just Latinos, it should be split up more evenly with other parts of the world, which should include a percentage of educated immigrants also. Why shouldn't this country expect to benefit from immigrants other then just the unskilled laborers and very poor.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Easy Gibson said:


> It seems like a lot of you guys are the type that would have supported prohibition.
> 
> "But it's the law!"
> 
> There are lots of laws that are stupid. When TNT made reference to people's ancestors coming here "legally" who wanted to assimilate he wasn't entirely, or in a way, at all correct.
> 
> Like I said earlier, my Italian relatives came here quite illegally in their early teens without speaking any English. There weren't quotas at the time, but you were supposed to have a sponsor. I think somebody held a door open for my great great uncle, but I know his little brother, my great great grandfather just straight up sneaked in. No Ellis Island. He came here with the intention of being an America. He never went back to Italy. Never saw his family again. He started a new family here. He opened a shop in Newark. Eventually he bought a house, etc. He started an American family.
> There were tons of people opposing him just like there are the Mexicans of today.
> 
> It's not so black and white in terms of legal/illegal. Those are manmade terms and they don't define the emotional part of the human experience. Have a little compassion. Just on a case by case basis. If a guy comes here to mooch off our system, call him an a-hole. If a guy sneaks in and wants to learn English and work his ass off for $100/day, give that man a god damn hammer.


No it was right. The percentage of legal immigration vastly out weighs that of illegal.

But even so, while some were illegal. There intention was to start a new life and more send their money back home.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Easy Gibson said:


> Seriously. You ever tried to find an American kid that wants to work and doesn't have a sense of entitlement the size of the Grand Canyon?
> My last company tried like hell to find an English speaking white kid. They're work deficiencies more than overshadowed most the Latinos language deficiencies.


Yep. All the time. But must think it's going to be easy or there is not a while lot of thinking involved. The figure out real fast if they have what it takes.


----------



## Calidecks

Easy Gibson said:


> Seriously. You ever tried to find an American kid that wants to work and doesn't have a sense of entitlement the size of the Grand Canyon? My last company tried like hell to find an English speaking white kid. They're work deficiencies more than overshadowed most the Latinos language deficiencies.


Give it some time I guarantee you the Latinos will be turned into an entitlement group as well. This is what the dems always wanted. It keeps the minorities in their corner.


----------



## EricBrancard

Californiadecks said:


> So, are you saying they shouldn't have to learn anything?


Did it appear anywhere that I was saying that? More of an observation on how sad it is that we don't even expect the same standards of the people who were fortunate enough to be born here. 



> How about this, lets make them have to at least pass the tests required from high school kids, like a GED I think what I proposed in the other thread is a lot easier for them. They have to have something to contribute besides picking tomatoes. It can't only be what's in their best interest, it more-so should be what's in this countries best interest. Also it should not be just Latinos, it should be split up more evenly with other parts of the world, which should include a percentage of educated immigrants also. Why shouldn't this country expect to benefit from immigrants other then just the unskilled laborers and very poor.



A lot of the people who are already here are a waste of space. They are not in this country's best interest. Oxygen thieves. We produce a surplus of poor and unskilled homegrown citizens day in and day out. I understand that we don't want to import anymore of the same. All I'm saying is that it's in our best interest to import those willing to contribute.


----------



## Rio

Californiadecks said:


> As a person that's lived in southern Cali for 45 years, I see your from here also Rio, so your going to know what I mean. I've talked to some of these illegals, I would say most that I've met don't want to be Americans. They just want our Chit. A large percentage come down here make money to send home. A lot of them make the money and go home to open a business down there. This is a total different mentality then immigrants that came here through Ellis Island. Those folks were proud to have a chance to become an American. They wanted to be Americans, learn the language and respect the new way of life.


I think that some want to go back and more than that want to stay. I know a lot of Mexicans, 1st generation Mexican Americans as well as 2nd and 3rd generation ones and for the most part they're really nice people. I think we're lucky as a country that they're our neighbor. It's the bad news good news situation. The bad news is we've got an illegal alien problem, the good news is they're Mexicans. If only so many of them weren't 'undocumented Democrats'

it's ironic that by making the border somewhat more secure it encouraged people to stay. When it was easy to sneak across more people would go home to see family. 

A guest worker program, with some sort of way of generating income to be used to help improve their communities in Mexico, would be a good thing. With the amount of grinding poverty there it's amazing that we don't have more of a problem.

What's happening also is there's a lot of miscegenation occurring so sooner or later the whole problem will work itself out and a new one will arise. I will say that living in San Diego, with huge numbers of people from all over the earth and interacting with a lot of them most of the ones I've dealt with are nice but to go back to the original subject there is absolutely no doubt it's put downward pressure on the wages that tradesmen make.


----------



## Calidecks

EricBrancard said:


> Did it appear anywhere that I was saying that? More of an observation on how sad it is that we don't even expect the same standards of the people who were fortunate enough to be born here. A lot of the people who are already here are a waste of space. They are not in this country's best interest. Oxygen thieves. We produce a surplus of poor and unskilled homegrown citizens day in and day out. I understand that we don't want to import anymore of the same. All I'm saying is that it's in our best interest to import those willing to contribute.


No it didn't appear that you said that, that's why I asked to see if that was what you meant. After all you didn't say anything about them having any requirements to come here.


----------



## Calidecks

Rio said:


> I think that some want to go back and more than that want to stay. I know a lot of Mexicans, 1st generation Mexican Americans as well as 2nd and 3rd generation ones and for the most part they're really nice people. I think we're lucky as a country that they're our neighbor. It's the bad news good news situation. The bad news is we've got an illegal alien problem, the good news is they're Mexicans. If only so many of them weren't 'undocumented Democrats' it's ironic that by making the border somewhat more secure it encouraged people to stay. When it was easy to sneak across more people would go home to see family. A guest worker program, with some sort of way of generating income to be used to help improve their communities in Mexico, would be a good thing. With the amount of grinding poverty there it's amazing that we don't have more of a problem. What's happening also is there's a lot of miscegenation occurring so sooner or later the whole problem will work itself out and a new one will arise. I will say that living in San Diego, with huge numbers of people from all over the earth and interacting with a lot of them most of the ones I've dealt with are nice but to go back to the original subject there is absolutely no doubt it's put downward pressure on the wages that tradesmen make.


I never said anything about them not being nice, that's irrelevant to my point.


----------



## greg24k

TxElectrician said:


> There's no such thing as a legitimate contractor that hires illegals.


On CT it's not but in reality plenty of that s^*t going on I see it every day... Lettered trucks lined up picking up laborers. You being from TX you see it more then I do I'm sure, unless it's to close to the border so they afraid to come out... But around here forget it bout it...


----------



## EricBrancard

Californiadecks said:


> No it didn't appear that you said that, that's why I asked to see if that was what you meant. After all you didn't say anything about them having any requirements to come here.


The bigger problem than people coming here illegally is that our whole system is ripe for abuse. Abuse from those already here and from those who come here.


----------



## Calidecks

EricBrancard said:


> The bigger problem than people coming here illegally is that our whole system is ripe for abuse. Abuse from those already here and from those who come here.


I agree :thumbsup:


----------



## dielectricunion

[QUOTE="ASInsulation;1887352 That cheap labor you think you are paying them is actually quite expensive when you account for all their food stamps and charity care and section 8 that your taxes are paying for them as well. Open your eyes! Its not simply a strain on this business, it is a strain on the economy as a whole.[/QUOTE]

Maybe things have changed, but last I checked, government welfare programs weren't open to undocumented, non citizens.


----------



## dielectricunion

Oops, that quoting didn't work at all


----------



## Red Adobe

Ya'll need to come try and run a company in one of the borderstates then you can COMPLAIN!

Lets just say we make lots of calls to Inspectors and "La Migra"


----------



## CO762

TNTSERVICES said:


> You land the fish you bait your hook for.


That is truly noteworthy. That's a will rogers type of comment. :thumbsup:

FWIW, in this conversation, comparing one era to the present is like comparing apples and trains. There are govt programs set up to take care of illegals, give them, well, all necessary for a life and quite a good one at that.* My non english speaking grandparents came here, they got off a boat and turned loose to fend for themselves, no organizations falling over each other to give them money, housing, food, clothing, free legal services, etc.

*stated the many ways illegals use different identities to take rape the govt for monies....and also, work under another identity. 

Here's another good quote, will rogers:
"Everything is changing. People are taking their comedians seriously and the politicians as a joke."


----------



## TNTRenovate

Red Adobe said:


> Ya'll need to come try and run a company in one of the borderstates then you can COMPLAIN!
> 
> Lets just say we make lots of calls to Inspectors and "La Migra"


Actually Illinois and some of the east coast states have a comparable, population of illegal to that of border states. While it's not as high it is still higher than would be expected.


----------



## CO762

Red Adobe said:


> Ya'll need to come try and run a company in one of the borderstates then you can COMPLAIN!
> 
> Lets just say we make lots of calls to Inspectors and "La Migra"


There are less illegals along border states than, say in denver, chicago, seattle, etc. Those on the non-existent border only have to worry about the violence over control over where you live. Illegals leave that area to the sanctuary areas (basically any place about 1 days drive north of the fake border. Why? Because if caught on the border, they're returned to their country and they have to pay the narco terrorists again and/or haul another load of narcotics across to help them pay their way. Why do that? Just go north and you will live the good life, even doing lots of crime, even felonies, and not get sent back. Cost too much and not in favor of the present rulers anyway.....


----------



## CO762

TNTSERVICES said:


> Actually Illinois and some of the east coast states have a comparable, population of illegal to that of border states.


How do you know? How does anyone know? I mean, it's de facto against the law to ask for IDs in a lot of cases. A few states have been giving national IDs to illegals (drivers licenses) for a decade or so.
I guess this is why that mythical "11 million illegals" number comes in.
And why it's been cited as a fact for the last 20 years.........

Suckas! :laughing:


----------



## TxElectrician

greg24k said:


> On CT it's not but in reality plenty of that s^*t going on I see it every day... Lettered trucks lined up picking up laborers. You being from TX you see it more then I do I'm sure, unless it's to close to the border so they afraid to come out... But around here forget it bout it...


The fact that it exists does not make it legitimate. Just like paying employees as sub contract labor exists, it is not legitimate. Lots of folks do both, and many make more money than I, just not how I choose to run my business or my life.


----------



## fast fred

TxElectrician said:


> Just like paying employees as sub contract labor exists, it is not legitimate. Lots of folks do both, and many make more money than I, just not how I choose to run my business or my life.


right here buddy!

if I had to choose between illegals and the good ole SUBCONTRACTOR EMPLOYEE I'd day the subcontractor employee is a bigger problem in this industry

3/4 of the contractors up here operate this way, a guy is a sub but gets 98% of his work from one person I play by the sub rules provided by the insurance industry and the irs and I get burned day in and day out for having employees..... that's why it's better to pay an illegal cash under the table braaaahhhhhhh


----------



## dielectricunion

First guy I ever worked for 1099'd us all and I thought it sucked but didn't know any better. I was definitely an employee and he had no idea what he was doing. Many of our questions were met with "look it up on howto.com"


----------



## rselectric1

fast fred said:


> right here buddy!
> 
> if I had to choose between illegals and the good ole SUBCONTRACTOR EMPLOYEE I'd day the subcontractor employee is a bigger problem in this industry
> 
> 3/4 of the contractors up here operate this way, a guy is a sub but gets 98% of his work from one person I play by the sub rules provided by the insurance industry and the irs and I get burned day in and day out for having employees..... that's why it's better to pay an illegal cash under the table braaaahhhhhhh


True (sort of) but this thinking is why we as honest taxpaying small businesses can't make an honest living anymore.

Pretty sad for this "3/4" percentage.

It's time to start reporting them.


----------



## greg24k

TxElectrician said:


> The fact that it exists does not make it legitimate. Just like paying employees as sub contract labor exists, it is not legitimate. Lots of folks do both, and many make more money than I, just not how I choose to run my business or my life.


I don't run my business that way also, as a matter a fact I never hired anyone unlicensed or uninsured on any of my jobs.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no way this guys squeezing the industry... this guys got nothing to offer other then cheap labor and a bunch of hacked up jobs if they're hired by the HO directly. Period, and if anybody feels threaten by them, or someone feels they're hurting theirs business, than they're doing something wrong.


----------



## flashheatingand

Drug cartel crossing the border is a much bigger threat to us than the labor force thing. 

For those immigrants that want to take the USD back Home, good luck. USD doesn't go that far. Flat screen tv still cost $500 in Pesos. They might have a little stash going on, but, the golden goose is here, not there.


----------



## Jaws

greg24k said:


> I don't run my business that way also, as a matter a fact I never hired anyone unlicensed or uninsured on any of my jobs.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is that there is no way this guys squeezing the industry... this guys got nothing to offer other then cheap labor and a bunch of hacked up jobs if they're hired by the HO directly. Period, and if anybody feels threaten by them, or someone feels they're hurting theirs business, than they're doing something wrong.


Greg, I am not a whiner. I dont complain about most of the things I contend with, and I am not whining about illegals. America has allowed this to happen.

But, it is incorrect to assume all illegals are doing hack work and directly for homeowners. Several of my major competitors use illegals. Their work ethic and the quality of work is not diminished by their illegal status. Unlike most areas, most are not working for peanuts here. 

In an area where there is not a good supply of decent carpenters, it is a huge pain in the azz to verify green cards and make sure the applicant is on the up and up when hiring a Latino. Many speak good English and have a drivers license, although I dont how they get a drivers license. I have had to turn away more than one good hand because he wasnt legal, just to see my competition hire him up. 

INS raids are rare here, even when they are called. 

My point is, im not a hack, we do quality remodeling. Some of my true competition certainly use illegals. They arent really getting a cheaper rate, except for 7% employment taxes. They are hiring people I wont though, regardless of the fact it is illegal. 

I actually was talking chit in passing about it to one of them, an older guy from out of the area. He said he was tired of being the only dumb azz, that they would be legal under amnesty soon anyway, and the only qualified guys around were working for themselves or already employed. It is a rural area, kind of, its not a big city.

My only point here is its not just low ballers hiring them here, although a lot of them are.


----------



## Rio

Californiadecks said:


> I never said anything about them not being nice, that's irrelevant to my point.


I did address your point which if I'm not mistaken was that a lot of illegals want to move back to Mexico and are just here to make money; to expand on that thought I think that while a lot of them might start out that way, coming for the economic opportunities that are lacking down south, once they get a taste of how good it really is up here that desire fades away. There's so much that we take for granted up here that even just across the border isn't available to huge numbers of people. 

Things like running water, sewer systems, even electricity (which is one of the first things the government down there runs in communities as it's easier to do than other infrastructure) oftentimes aren't available. There's huge communities, we're talking tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands, in the outskirts of the cities where there's been no civil engineering done, after it rains there's ruts that could swallow an elephant, when it doesn't rain the dust from the unpaved roads will choke you on a windy day, not a green thing to be seen for miles. 

We are truly blessed up here in the states and I think a lot of people that come here realize that and want to stay.


----------



## Calidecks

Rio said:


> I did address your point which if I'm not mistaken was that a lot of illegals want to move back to Mexico and are just here to make money; to expand on that thought I think that while a lot of them might start out that way, coming for the economic opportunities that are lacking down south, once they get a taste of how good it really is up here that desire fades away. There's so much that we take for granted up here that even just across the border isn't available to huge numbers of people. Things like running water, sewer systems, even electricity (which is one of the first things the government down there runs in communities as it's easier to do than other infrastructure) oftentimes aren't available. There's huge communities, we're talking tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands, in the outskirts of the cities where there's been no civil engineering done, after it rains there's ruts that could swallow an elephant, when it doesn't rain the dust from the unpaved roads will choke you on a windy day, not a green thing to be seen for miles. We are truly blessed up here in the states and I think a lot of people that come here realize that and want to stay.


We are truly blessed here in the states because of ordinary folks who work hard and abide by the law. We as business owners are a small part of that. We are a nation of laws regardless if someone has to do without by not breaking them. Everyone can have more in life by breaking the law but it's not the right way to get it.


----------



## brunothedog

Jaws said:


> Greg,
> 
> I
> I actually was talking chit in passing about it to one of them, an older guy from out of the area. He said he was tired of being the only dumb azz, that they would be legal under amnesty soon anyway, and the only qualified guys around were working for themselves or already employed. It is a rural area, kind of, its not a big city.
> 
> My only point here is its not just low ballers hiring them here, although a lot of them are.


Must be me
I wrote a lot of things
don't take it out of perspective


----------



## brunothedog

Me and my family have always worked with licensed people


----------



## Jaws

brunothedog said:


> Must be me
> I wrote a lot of things
> don't take it out of perspective


What must be you? 

I responded to a post regarding illegals only working for low ballers and homeowners.Not the case down here.


----------



## Rio

Californiadecks said:


> We are truly blessed here in the states because of ordinary folks who work hard and abide by the law. We as business owners are a small part of that. We are a nation of laws regardless if someone has to do without by not breaking them. Everyone can have more in life by breaking the law but it's not the right way to get it.


Couldn't agree more with that............. Someone should remind the president of the above.


----------



## wallmaxx

pibe said:


> *I dont think anyone can fault a guy for trying to better his life or his families life.*
> 
> The way i see it, it is a lifestyle difference. And i think many in the construction field who have somewhat been comfortable doing their trade are going to see their standard of living drop eventually because of it. When one guy is out to make enough to make payments on his small home, feed his family, maybe send kids to daycare or something, have more than just their work vehicle...and the other guy is living with 4 of his family members as well as their spouse and kids all 8 of them working, splitting bills and everything, having one old junker van or something, and they are *able* to do work for next to nothing as well as *willing* to work for next to nothing. And since many homeowners could not care less, only caring about the bottom line...i believe guy 2 is in the end going to be bringing the rest down to their level. Especially money being like it is right now.( you can market yourself to [X] clientele but id say the majority of people in this country fall in the budget conscious category [Y].)
> 
> Now from a personal/work/political/whatever perspective, I dont necessarily have a problem with any of that, as i believe competition is always good...breeds innovation as well as bringing price down for the consumer for the most part. So i guess id say it is what it is and if you cant compete then maybe you should look into moving.




Really?

So choosing to commit criminal trespass, tax evasion, working outside the local and state required regs...............you don't see that as wrong...........?

CRIMINALLY TRESPASSING FOREIGN NATIONALS are a form of a passive, decentralized invasion force. If they want a better life, DO IT LEGALLY IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY or IMMIGRATE to a better country BY FOLLOWING THE LAWS IN PLACE TO DO THAT!!!!


----------



## brunothedog

Jaws said:


> What must be you?
> 
> I responded to a post regarding illegals only working for low ballers and homeowners.Not the case down here.


We don't have _"Mexicans"_, true, but, Their are Romanians, Africans, Russians, Marrocians, Albanians, etc...
You alls seem to miss the point.

As in all thru history, where there is work, people will migrate.

This is a big problem here, but it has been a problem for all of history.

I remember as a youngster on the job, tires slashed, threats made by, at the time, Union workers.

My father and his father were considered Illegals by the Union.

They sent monies back to the homeland, built houses, and invested.

whats the point?

USA made my ass

The US was made by immigrants, Illegals or non. 

Give me your tired.....

America isn't the only kid on the block.
Open your eyes.


----------



## brunothedog

Lowballers, illegals, you guys make me laugh, ha-ha


I make more more money "low-balling" because I work like a mule.
I can compete with their prices.

I've spent 60 days this summer on the job in the Michigan area and what I saw made me chuckle.
The _"Illegals"_ I saw on the job produced more and the quality was better.
With your big ass trucks, and your Ipads, pods iphones, coming on the job, doing nothing. getting a call saying" an emergency, Im needed else where"

Anyways back in the day every masons dream was to get into the Union, for the high dollar pay checks.

Nowa days The union is in bed with the government and everybody wants to be American( UNION) for the high bucks.
All I hear is the same Crap as to how the illegals, legals, immigrants, etc.. are ruining the work place,
As My family had to endure 40 yrs ago.

Adapt, or die


----------



## hdavis

dielectricunion said:


> Maybe things have changed, but last I checked, government welfare programs weren't open to undocumented, non citizens.


Benefits are paid out for illegals, where have you been? Sure it's fraud. State and government programs aren't really incentivised to weed out waste, fraud, and abuse, but that's a different topic.

Go to any big city in Texas and check out the county hospital. They provide millions of dollars every year in free health care to illegals. It just about bankrupts them. 

To be fair, the overall effect appears to be neutral or better, if there isn't downward pressure to begin with:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...economic-boom/2011/08/19/gIQASvBFQJ_blog.html


----------



## pibe

wallmaxx said:


> [/SIZE]
> 
> Really?
> 
> So choosing to commit criminal trespass, tax evasion, working outside the local and state required regs...............you don't see that as wrong...........?
> 
> CRIMINALLY TRESPASSING FOREIGN NATIONALS are a form of a passive, decentralized invasion force. If they want a better life, DO IT LEGALLY IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY or IMMIGRATE to a better country BY FOLLOWING THE LAWS IN PLACE TO DO THAT!!!!


That was just a preface to my entire thought that one could understand where theyre coming from but it obviously isnt right in any way shape or form. 

Great job taking one sentence out of context though and ranting about crap i never said or said i supported or remotely even spoke about. Really put me in my place.


----------



## Calidecks

This video sums it up to a tee!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE


----------



## pibe

Californiadecks said:


> This video sums it up to a tee!
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE


Hah...i have actually linked that video as well to several people.

He has other videos with charts/graphs that are very visual as well.


----------



## brunothedog

Californiadecks said:


> This video sums it up to a tee!
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE


That has got to be the most stupidest thing I ever saw.

You all have it against everybody but you.
I thought I was the dumbass

America is no one nation, one race, blah blah blah.

So then, the black folks should thank the "white " original* americans for saving them from the hardships they endeared and for offering hope thru slavery.

White trash is all I read.


*original americans - those who have gained by stealing and killing from the Original Americans*

your forgetting your history, how convenient.


----------



## Calidecks

brunothedog said:


> That has got to be the most stupidest thing I ever saw.
> 
> You all have it against everybody but you.
> I thought I was the dumbass
> 
> America is no one nation, one race, blah blah blah.
> 
> So then, the black folks should thank the "white " original* americans for saving them from the hardships they endeared and for offering hope thru slavery.
> 
> White trash is all I read.
> 
> *original americans - those who have gained by stealing and killing from the Original Americans*
> 
> your forgetting your history, how convenient.


Your true self had come to light


----------



## brunothedog

I've never been hiding


----------



## brunothedog

we're number 1, we're number 1, we're number 1, we're number 1, we're number 1,
we're number 1 we're number 1 we're number 1


----------



## Calidecks

brunothedog said:


> I've never been hiding


You come back here for our money and chit, don't you.


----------



## greg24k

India is following this guys advise... they stay in theirs country and they take all the work away from Americans when they come here to work and they doing that the legal way with working visa and providing cheap work force.

The guy who just sold a house across from me sold his Business here for 7m sold his house for another 1m, took the money and moved back to India to open up a chain of hotels.

One of my clients was in charge of a group of 30 computer programmers working for Merill Lynch, everyone got replaced by people from India she is the only one left.

When did the last time you used technical support, and you had American helping you... all calls are routed to India...

When this guy was selling the house, 98% of people looking to purchase are Indian people. There is a development being built near my house almost every house is sold to people from India.

Every country is taking work away from our kids and every company is moving overseas... 95% of products is made in China including American Flags. 

Most of the kids who come out of college today already in 100k debt and there is no jobs available...

The people in the street who came here with no papers thats is not even a problem... thats is an excuse for lazy bums who collect welfare and unemployment, and like someone said not paying theirs mortgage just to qualify for Obama Care or some other disability to sit on theirs ass and milk the system...and when you ask, they're the first ones will tell you ohhhh this illegals take all our work.

Just this week another Medicaid scam this people billed the system for 1tens of million dollars, they live in a 1m dollar home, they drive RR and have a few 100k cars as secondary and this is the second couple in the last few months.

We can go on and on and on with all this BS and nothing will help untill we stop sticking our noses and try to solve problems all over the world and concentrate whats going on under our nose, until then this is the lost cause.


----------



## brunothedog

Californiadecks said:


> You come back here for our money and chit, don't you.


and your women :laughing:


----------



## Calidecks

brunothedog said:


> and your women :laughing:


Your like a little sawed off Benito Mussolini aren't you Dog?


----------



## Millworker

why bother..


----------



## brunothedog

this is all a joke,
taken with a grain of salt


----------



## CITY DECKS INC

Californiadecks said:


> This video sums it up to a tee!
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE


The video reminds my a little of what's happening in Africa. For many years you saw the commercials for a cup a cup off coffee day you could feed a family...right? 
US and several Eur countries have been dropping off food to feed the poor. And what happened? We created welfare and the forgot how to farm, hunt and fend for them selves which has made there poor country even worst off. Bono (US) created a new program were they're getting back to farming building schools, hospitals. Teaching them to be independent not dependent. 


Also have any of you gotten any letters for your payroll company FYIng about INS coming to your office and job site? They are collaborating with OSHA and the local municipalities to find you through building permits. The fines start at 100k. If you have anyone that is not 100% legal and verified get rid of them now. There not excepting just ss cards anymore. You have to verify the fed’s a have a online free service

Immigrants all day hell I’m one. Illegals no way. Get it straight people.


----------



## TNTRenovate

brunothedog said:


> That has got to be the most stupidest thing I ever saw.
> 
> You all have it against everybody but you.
> I thought I was the dumbass
> 
> America is no one nation, one race, blah blah blah.
> 
> So then, the black folks should thank the "white " original* americans for saving them from the hardships they endeared and for offering hope thru slavery.
> 
> White trash is all I read.
> 
> 
> *original americans - those who have gained by stealing and killing from the Original Americans*
> 
> your forgetting your history, how convenient.


Bruno, every time I read your posts it is painfully obvious that you think yourself more educated than you really are.

The natives of America were not angels. They were at war with each other. They stole each others land. They enslaved each other. They raped and pillaged. And the same goes for Africa. In fact there is more slavery in Africa today than any other time in history.

The big bad white man didn't invent it. Also, many of the "natives" of North America migrated from South America and Russia. When they came here they did just what we did and that was conquer a less advanced society.


----------



## brunothedog

TNTSERVICES said:


> Bruno, every time I read your posts it is painfully obvious that you think yourself more educated than you really are.


Never said I was educated.

And, I read it on the internet so it gotta be true


----------



## TNTRenovate

brunothedog said:


> Never said I was educated.
> 
> And, I read it on the internet so it gotta be true


You definitely implied it when you tell everyone they don't know history. It implies that you do, but when you open you mouth it is obvious that you are actually the one that needs to learn real history and not from your comic books. I know that pictures are neat, but they don't replace actual information.


----------



## brunothedog

TNTSERVICES said:


> You definitely implied it when you tell everyone they don't know history. It implies that you do, but when you open you mouth it is obvious that you are actually the one that needs to learn real history and not from your comic books. I know that pictures are neat, but they don't replace actual information.


don't be such a hard ass.
my point is that legals, illegals, union, non union is how the construction business has been in America from the beginning of time.

Where would you be right now if your ancestors where deported.


----------



## brunothedog

TNTSERVICES said:


> Bruno, every time I read your posts it is *painfully obvious* that you think yourself more educated than you really are.
> _sorry for your pain_
> The natives of America were not angels. They were at war with each other. They stole each others land. They enslaved each other. They raped and pillaged. And the same goes for Africa. In fact there is more slavery in Africa today than any other time in history.
> _*Basically thats the story of mankind*_
> The big bad white man didn't invent it. Also, many of the "natives" of North America migrated from South America and Russia. When they came here they did just what we did and that was conquer a less advanced society._*what everbody is missing, and gets me pissed about threads like this, is all the hate in them*._


I'm all for, making big money, You guys have it made, and your still complaining, I am reading threads on this forum that People working by them selfs are raking in 2-400 dollars an hour.
Jesus' christ.
And I am called a lowballer because 50 an hour is more than enough for me.
I have to deal with people like that everyday here,

I got to know in the Michigan area on my recent 2 months there, the price to construct, from block, lumber, etc..
My family does masonry for a really big builder, and from what i see there.
and read here. 2 totally different worlds

On anouther thread someone said, "that labor at a buck a brick i would slowly put myself out of business"
I could work only 3 days a week for that kinda money.
Tile setters the same. high price only labor is 1.40 sq.ft.

I also know how much a "LLC" costs, along with insurance, and how much taxes are.
There isn't that much difference.

SO. what do I see, 
Companies asking Ferrari money for working, then bashing with all their might, anyone thats happy bidding Ford money.


----------



## hdavis

I think if there is a labor excess, there is a squeeze. Period. If there is a labor shortage, then more laborers are beneficial.

The question every businessman has to answer for his business is how he's going to profit during good times and bad times. This always comes down to what your market is and coming up with ways to service it faster / better / cheaper. Cost structure pays an important role - you can always ride out down turns by breaking even (meaning everyone, even the owner, gets their wages), but I don't think that's a good strategy.


----------



## hdavis

$50 an hour would be steep for a lot of trades around here, except electricians, plumbers, and handymen.


----------



## Tom M

Fifty an hour is cheap, my accountant advised me to me near 80 but I had to drop to 60 and 50 % of the leads that come cant afford that and almost take offense to the quotes. Its ridiculous. That is of course because 50 % of the people they talk to or hire use our proffession as a supplement rather than a career.

I do think the masses of illegals effect the larger picture in the industry.


----------



## bwiab

All you need to do is replace "illegal immigrant" with "unlicensed contractor" to find the hypocrisy in this thread.


----------



## ready to roll

Anybody that says that they can't find a white man that wants to work is full of it. They are just making excuses to hire illegals at $9.00 an hour. Pay an american a decent wage and they are more than willing to work. You wouldn't bust your ass for chicken chit wages so why do you expect anybody else except Illegals to work for that.


----------



## TNTRenovate

brunothedog said:


> don't be such a hard ass.
> my point is that legals, illegals, union, non union is how the construction business has been in America from the beginning of time.
> 
> Where would you be right now if your ancestors where deported.


Yes I'm the one being a hard ass. Pot call the kettle black?


----------



## TNTRenovate

bwiab said:


> All you need to do is replace "illegal immigrant" with "unlicensed contractor" to find the hypocrisy in this thread.


No we have those threads too. They are just as bad.

Butn we did say that one of the problems with illegals is that they don't get the proper licensing. So there!


----------



## flashheatingand

ready to roll said:


> Anybody that says that they can't find a white man that wants to work is full of it. They are just making excuses to hire illegals at $9.00 an hour. Pay an american a decent wage and they are more than willing to work. You wouldn't bust your ass for chicken chit wages so why do you expect anybody else except Illegals to work for that.


It's not that black and white. The customer is willing to pay only so much. Actually, many of us do bust our butts for chicken feed.


----------



## dielectricunion

ready to roll said:


> Anybody that says that they can't find a white man that wants to work is full of it. They are just making excuses to hire illegals at $9.00 an hour. Pay an american a decent wage and they are more than willing to work. You wouldn't bust your ass for chicken chit wages so why do you expect anybody else except Illegals to work for that.


Didn't know to be american was synonymous with being white. You the same person who said that Mexicans were okay people because they're "Christian like us"?


----------



## EricBrancard

ready to roll said:


> Anybody that says that they can't find a white man that wants to work is full of it. They are just making excuses to hire illegals at $9.00 an hour. Pay an american a decent wage and they are more than willing to work. You wouldn't bust your ass for chicken chit wages so why do you expect anybody else except Illegals to work for that.


Willing to work and willing to show up to collect a wage you feel entitled to are not one in the same. That's not an excuse to hire illegals, that's a fairly accurate observation of the available workforce.


----------



## ready to roll

dielectricunion said:


> Didn't know to be american was synonymous with being white. You the same person who said that Mexicans were okay people because they're "Christian like us"?


I never said that. Maybe it was you. My response was to a previous post that said you cant find a white guy who wants to work. Pay a white man or any other American a decent wage. I hope that makes it clear.


----------



## ready to roll

EricBrancard said:


> Willing to work and willing to show up to collect a wage you feel entitled to are not one in the same. That's not an excuse to hire illegals, that's a fairly accurate observation of the available workforce.


 Look beyond the spoiled college kid and you will find plenty of Americans that want to work for a good wage.


----------



## EricBrancard

ready to roll said:


> Look beyond the spoiled college kid and you will find plenty of Americans that want to work for a good wage.


Ok. I'll look beyond the college kids. Let me tell you what we'll find. Guys willing to work......unless:

They are having problems with their "old lady"

Their truck won't start

They can't come in because they have to go to court for child support/DUI/trying to get a "big payday" off a lawsuit, etc, etc

Rough night at the bar

The list goes on and on

The good workers out there are hard to find, and the best ones usually decide to go out on their own anyways. Not saying their aren't guys out there, but there sure isn't a surplus of them.


----------



## ready to roll

EricBrancard said:


> Ok. I'll look beyond the college kids. Let me tell you what we'll find. Guys willing to work......unless:
> 
> They are having problems with their "old lady"
> 
> Their truck won't start
> 
> They can't come in because they have to go to court for child support/DUI/trying to get a "big payday" off a lawsuit, etc, etc
> 
> Rough night at the bar
> 
> The list goes on and on
> 
> The good workers out there are hard to find, and the best ones usually decide to go out on their own anyways. Not saying their aren't guys out there, but there sure isn't a surplus of them.


It might be like that in connecticut, but out here in california we AMERICANS have no problem working hard for a decent days wages.


----------



## EricBrancard

ready to roll said:


> It might be like that in connecticut, but out here in california we AMERICANS have no problem working hard for a decent days wages.


Gotcha. Must be a Connecticut thing. Must have nothing to do with my posts going right over your head.

With all those Americans out in CA willing to put in work, why are you one of, in not the largest welfare state in the US? 

I love when guys speak in such absolutes.....


----------



## Jaws

ready to roll said:


> It might be like that in connecticut, but out here in california we AMERICANS have no problem working hard for a decent days wages.


 80% of the guys I hire or interview are like Eric said, and I dont pay chicken feed.

As far as laborers or apprentices, that job dont pay a fortune. You can bet I worked my azz for chicken feed as a laborer, a lot less than I pay now. 

That is not an illegal vs legal thing, that is just what it is. I would imagine thats the case most place's. I hired a 40 something year old dude from California 3 years ago that was a heck of a carpenter but said all the same stuff Brancard just mentioned. 

You aint worth a  if you aint here :no:


----------



## blacktop

EricBrancard said:


> Gotcha. Must be a Connecticut thing. Must have nothing to do with my posts going right over your head.
> 
> With all those Americans out in CA willing to put in work, why are you one of, in not the largest welfare state in the US?
> 
> I love when guys speak in such absolutes.....


You can make $250k a year In Cali and still draw welfare!!!:laughing:


----------



## svronthmve

EricBrancard said:


> Ok. I'll look beyond the college kids. Let me tell you what we'll find. Guys willing to work......unless:
> 
> They are having problems with their "old lady"
> 
> Their truck won't start
> 
> They can't come in because they have to go to court for child support/DUI/trying to get a "big payday" off a lawsuit, etc, etc
> 
> Rough night at the bar
> 
> The list goes on and on
> 
> The good workers out there are hard to find, and the best ones usually decide to go out on their own anyways. Not saying their aren't guys out there, but there sure isn't a surplus of them.


My experience here in NY too Eric. Maybe it's an east coast thing! :laughing:


----------



## blacktop

EricBrancard said:


> Their truck won't start
> 
> Rough night at the bar
> 
> .



Guilty! :whistling


----------



## HARRY304E

blacktop said:


> Guilty! :whistling


Been there:laughing:


----------



## loneframer

Anyone who thinks the illegal population isn't a strain on not only our industry, but the economy in general needs to come spend a day in my area.

I'll take you to half a dozen schools whos students are predominantly non-english speaking....requiring a teachers aid in nearly every classroom. We can sit in on family night and count how many kids they have in grade school that have "English as a second language" as part of the cariculum, then follow them home to a 3 BR section 8 apartment where they reside with no less than a dozen siblings.

We'll stop by the local ER where guys come in with work related injuries and are not covered by anyones WC or private health insurance. They show their NJ state healthcare card....or are ushered into a room with a social worker who sits and helps them fill out the proper forms to acquire one....in a foreign language.

We can also count how many children are treated there for symptoms of the common cold and again watch as their mother is walked through the process of attaining state funded healthcare....in a foreign language.

I saw it first hand when my mother suffered a TIA and spent half the morning and the entire afternoon getting an EKG and a CAT scan. 7 hours in the ER waiting room will open your eyes to some new things.

We can also drive by a hundred or so construction sites and count how many out of state tags belong to the "sub-contractors" there. Then we'll ask them for a business card with their home improvement contractors registration number on it. Their trucks certainly don't display it, as required by law, but is considered "profiling" if asked for it by an official.

Are any of you aware that it is illegal to ask a driver who is uninsured, unlicensed, fictitious tags and no registration on their vehicle if they are in this country legally? It is here and police officers have been reprimanded for it.

Hell, we can't even call them illegal aliens here. They are simply "Undocumented Workers" to avoid the negative connotation that "illegal" implies.


----------



## svronthmve

pibe said:


> Symptom of the problem (that would be government)


And liberals in general.....


----------



## pibe

Jaws said:


> You and I are usually on the same page, but in my opinion, business owners and contractors are not drug dealers. A lot of contractors are using the illegals because it is convenient, not because it is cheaper as is popular belief by many people.
> 
> I'll be honest, I have never hired an illegal on my payroll, but I can guarantee you, I would be checking green cards for my Mason and concrete subs crews if I had a risk of 5 years in prison.


I think he was just making the point that the war on drugs has been largely useless and a complete and utter disaster, not to mention it has pretty must just exacerbated the issue it was meant to correct. And that these issues need to be corrected through means other than incarceration.


----------



## Jaws

pibe said:


> I think he was just making the point that the war on drugs has been largely useless and a complete and utter disaster, not to mention it has pretty must just exacerbated the issue it was meant to correct. And that these issues need to be corrected through means other than incarceration.


The war on drugs is a joke, as is our border control efforts. Period. 

We have some bad azz's that could of shut down the cartels before I was born. Have to be allowed to make things happen though. Keep the press out of it, solves a lot of problems.


----------



## EricBrancard

Jaws said:


> You and I are usually on the same page, but in my opinion, business owners and contractors are not drug dealers. A lot of contractors are using the illegals because it is convenient, not because it is cheaper as is popular belief by many people.
> 
> I'll be honest, I have never hired an illegal on my payroll, but I can guarantee you, I would be checking green cards for my Mason and concrete subs crews if I had a risk of 5 years in prison.


It's not that we are not on the same page, it's that we are at different points on that page. You're thinking about applying penalties at the wrong part of the problem. It will not solve the problem and will only increase costs and provide a logistical nightmare to enforce. Removing the incentives at the top will not only save money, but alleviate the need for costly low and midlevel enforcement. 

That is why I used drugs as an example. The war on drugs is the best example of how to do everything wrong.


----------



## EricBrancard

Jaws said:


> We have some bad azz's that could of shut down the cartels before I was born.


Are you referring to 7th SFG?


----------



## Jaws

EricBrancard said:


> Are you referring to 7th SFG?


Most of them are busy elsewhere. My wifes cousin was 7th group for 6 years and never deployed anywhere but the " the rock pile and the sand box" according to him. 

I read Killing Pablo. They had Delta elements involved in the 80s. From what I read in high school, Beckwith could probably of done a lot. So could the men he trained.


----------



## EricBrancard

Jaws said:


> Most of them are busy elsewhere. My wifes cousin was 7th group for 6 years and never deployed anywhere but the " the rock pile and the sand box" according to him.
> 
> I read Killing Pablo. They had Delta elements involved in the 80s. From what I read in high school, Beckwith could probably of done a lot. So could the men he trained.


Yeah, CAG and ISA were heavily involved with "disrupting" the activities of Escobar. But tying up special missions units with the "war on drugs" isn't the best use of resources either.


----------



## Jaws

EricBrancard said:


> Yeah, CAG and ISA were heavily involved with "disrupting" the activities of Escobar. But tying up special missions units with the "war on drugs" isn't the best use of resources either.


I wouldn't know. 

I do know that if you do tie up any resource, especially an expert resource, it should be allowed to operate at its potential. Im pretty sure a dude who has made a career of something is better suited to make decisions than some used car salesman who became a congressman.


----------



## EricBrancard

Jaws said:


> I wouldn't know.
> 
> I do know that if you do tie up any resource, especially an expert resource, it should be allowed to operate at its potential. Im pretty sure a dude who has made a career of something is better suited to make decisions than some used car salesman who became a congressman.


What I mean is, ending this "prohibition" is a much cheaper solution. Both in lives and money.


----------



## Jaws

EricBrancard said:


> What I mean is, ending this "prohibition" is a much cheaper solution. Both in lives and money.


In regards to drugs, I agree.

In regards to illegal immigration, this thread is futile. It will be legal soon enough. Im in a position to speak with my state reps on a regular basis. They listen to what the small guys (me) have to say, and take the money from the big guys. The big guys want a large workforce, cheap or not, and they own the SOBs making the rules. Same situation with WC. Im sure they laugh at the guys paying for WC, it wont be a requirement here for a long while.


----------



## Rio

EricBrancard said:


> What I mean is, ending this "prohibition" is a much cheaper solution. Both in lives and money.


Yeah, just go to the corner store, stock up on crack and meth and have a nice mellow afternoon........ You think we have problems now....


----------



## Jaws

Rio said:


> Yeah, just go to the corner store, stock up on crack and meth and have a nice mellow afternoon........ You think we have problems now....


I agree, hoss. 

But if they are going to combat the issue the way they are now, whats the difference? 

Either go scorched earth or step aside. I prefer scorched earth, but politicians are wusses.


----------



## hdavis

"
Khalid said he was a farmer in Iraq. In Louisiana, he worked in a gas station, his son said.

Now, he said he lives on Social Security Disability Insurance. He typically can’t sleep more than two hours, he said, for fear that he’ll get a call saying a family member in Iraq died.

Bridgeo, the city manager, learned about Augusta’s Iraqi influx a few weeks ago, when between 10 and 15 Iraqi men showed up in Augusta’s welfare office. Some were single; some had families.

Refugees often arrive with few possessions and can receive some assistance when they get to America, according to Catholic Charities. Once they are present in a Maine city with the intention of staying, they can get General Assistance to help pay for rent, food and utilities.

“It’s something we can pretty much take in stride now at the current numbers,” Bridgeo said, but if more come there could be “ramifications on staffing,” forcing the city to spend more on welfare and interpretation services.

The impact at schools has been just as large.

A few weeks after the school year started, more than 20 students flooded into English as a second language programs at Cony High School and Farrington Elementary School, said Augusta Superintendent James Anastasio, who said they’re anticipating more.

Twelve Arabic-speaking Iraqi children between the ages of 5 and 12 showed up at Farrington in the last month, said Lori Smail, the school’s principal.

That influx virtually doubled ESL teacher Robin Wilkinson’s program there, which served 12 kids speaking nine languages before the Iraqi influx.
"


----------



## pibe

Rio said:


> Yeah, just go to the corner store, stock up on crack and meth and have a nice mellow afternoon........ You think we have problems now....


Many people would say that adults should have the right to choose what they ingest into their own bodies and consenting adults should be able to buy and sell said items as long as they are not harming others. One could also argue that this prohibition has also lead to the increase in potency. Fear of incarceration/punishment leading to wanting to travel with less volume so on and so on. Also to your stock up on crack and meth line, i think it was ron paul that said something like "if heroin was legal, would you go out and do get some right now? Is the only thing standing between you and addiction a government say-so?" Not to mention alcohol and cigarettes kill millions more people than the hardest of drugs. 

And apologies but since this is the internet its hard to tell which way your sarcasm was headed...if you were not implying that things would be worse off with legalizing drugs than i apologize haha

Anyways...off topic sorry (shortened thoughts - gov intervention = bad 97.2% of the time)


----------



## hdavis

"
Secondary immigrants also fueled Maine’s most prominent recent mass migration, the rise of Lewiston’s Somali population, also kicked off by immigrants from Georgia.

University of Maine sociology professor Kim Huisman put secondary immigrants’ share of the Somali population at 95 percent in a 2009 paper.
"
http://www.kjonline.com/news/Iraqi_families_relocate_to_Augusta_.html?pagenum=full


----------



## hdavis

First margarine, then what? Get rid of the FDA, except for some basic functions. Legalize everything, and shut down the methadone clinics, or at least make it so they aren't a free high for addicts who aren't trying to kick the habit.


----------



## loneframer

Oconomowoc said:


> Wanna know how else to make decent money? Avoid banter like this and focus on yourself and your customers.
> 
> The only choice we will ever have in life is how we react to a situation. So instead of bickering about illegals or immigrants how about a thread on coming up with viable solutions you can personally do immediately to combat this?
> 
> Complaining about the obvious is a waste of energy. It's easy. Anybody can do it.


Not for anything, I agree with most of this post.

I don't agree that the subject should be avoided or ignored. Nor do I believe there is much to be gained by going on a personal crusade.

I think it's time to stop ignoring the problem and have open discussions about it without being called a racist because we are not the ones manipulating the system.


----------



## loneframer

Jaws said:


> I would be checking green cards for my Mason and concrete subs crews if I had a risk of 5 years in prison.


Problem is, if your mason is licensed and insured, it's his responsibility to check the legality of his employees. I doubt very highly you could legally look any further than his license/registration numbers and an insurance cert.


----------



## griz

loneframer said:


> Problem is, if your mason is licensed and insured, it's his responsibility to check the legality of his employees. I doubt very highly you could legally look any further than his license/registration numbers and an insurance cert.


I've been on a school job where everyone who had access to the job was finger printed. Amazing the number of guys that didn't show up.

Try working in a jail....same thing...:thumbsup:


----------



## loneframer

griz said:


> I've been on a school job where everyone who had access to the job was finger printed. Amazing the number of guys that didn't show up.
> 
> Try working in a jail....same thing...:thumbsup:


Try doing that in Jersey on a residential job and you might end up 5 miles off the coast with concrete flip-flops on your feet.:whistling


----------



## Calidecks

I just hired and fired a guy within three days. Here's the story:

Drives up says do you need any laborers? I said sure can you work right now? Day one he's working out pretty good, day 2 he rolls up late, says his mom was in the hospital. I said sorry to hear that, but next time call. Day three, this is no lie, I'm screwing down decking with a stand up Simpson QuikDrive screw gun, his job is to pull the spacers put them a head of me and push the decking boards tight to the spacers, very easy job. I had him moving pretty good and he stands up says this is not labor work it's skilled labor. I said you are phucking kidding me aren't you. Then he says this is a lot more then just pushing a broom. I said nothing else I was pissed, I always keep "I'm pissed checks" in my truck. Handed him his check and said get the phuck off my job. Here's a pic of what he was doing. A Mexican worker would not of done that. Take that however you want. But that's the fact.


----------



## Calidecks

Not all, but there is a certain group in the America workforce that seem to think they're being mistreated if you work them too hard. It's sickening.


----------



## Easy E

Exactly , that's the kinda stuff i am talking about ,btw thanks jaws


----------



## TNTRenovate

Californiadecks said:


> A Mexican worker would not of done that. Take that however you want. But that's *my opinion*.
> 
> View attachment 103478


BS. I have had Mexicans, Peurto Ricans, Black, white and in between not know what a frickin' day of unskilled work looks like and have been ticked off when asked to do something "outside" their definition of laborer.

And I fixed it for you.


----------



## Calidecks

TNTSERVICES said:


> BS. I have had Mexicans, Peurto Ricans, Black, white and in between not know what a frickin' day of unskilled work looks like and have been ticked off when asked to do something "outside" their definition of laborer. And I fixed it for you.


 Let me rephrase that, I've never in my 28 years had a Mexican do anything like that. You cant refute that.


----------



## ready to roll

Jaws said:


> You dont have much reading comprehension, huh, hoss?
> 
> Where did he say they were illegal? Where did he say he doesn't have comp?
> 
> You know what happens when we assume....[/QUOTE I can see your on the defensive about this subject, but there's no need to be. Don't worry, be happy!


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## greg24k

Californiadecks said:


> I just hired and fired a guy within three days. Here's the story:
> 
> Drives up says do you need any laborers? I said sure can you work right now? Day one he's working out pretty good, day 2 he rolls up late, says his mom was in the hospital. I said sorry to hear that, but next time call. Day three, this is no lie, I'm screwing down decking with a stand up Simpson QuikDrive screw gun, his job is to pull the spacers put them a head of me and push the decking boards tight to the spacers, very easy job. I had him moving pretty good and he stands up says this is not labor work it's skilled labor. I said you are phucking kidding me aren't you. Then he says this is a lot more then just pushing a broom. I said nothing else I was pissed, I always keep "I'm pissed checks" in my truck. Handed him his check and said get the phuck off my job. Here's a pic of what he was doing. A Mexican worker would not of done that. Take that however you want. But that's the fact.
> 
> View attachment 103478


Mike, I couldn't agree more with you. This guys do what needs to be done and they don't piss and moan all day long.

My electrical contractor swapped his whole crew for guys from Mexico...not illegal, they drive and they kick ass. He said his business never ran so efficient and this guys on top of all his jobs, he said all he has to do is get material and get more jobs...Same goes with plumber, and framer, I'm not even gonna touch roofing, sheetrock, etc.

Before that, it was one guy lost his license for drunk driving now he needs to be picked up... If no one is going that way, he is a man short. Another guy is at the funeral, his grandmother died for the 3d time... and I can go on and on.

We can go with this all day long, and I know a lot of people don't want to face or hear this... but it is what it is and this been going on for a long time so its time to face the facts.

The facts are, that if Government send all the illegals back... like it or not, the economy in this country will crash because there will be no people to do the work...any type of work for that matter.

Today I go into any business which provides service... pizza places, high end restaurants, any restaurant, warehouses, deliveries, contractors, airports, you name it... there is no Americans working anymore in most service industries.

Maybe down south or someplace mid-west in smaller towns and Cities you will find that a bit less... But man let me tell you around here in Jersey, New York, probably PA also (I'm not there to often)... around here it is everywhere, even local Farms (how more American can you get if not a Farmer) hire none American help not to mention any other business I've listed and all for the same reason Mike had in his case.

Last time I hired an American guy was 20 years ago... a guy came to the job looking for work, I asked him if he had experience, he said 15 years... he threw my masons scaffold in the dumpster when I told him to clean out the garage, and electrical meter panel.

Since then I used one of my customers father who is retired in his late 60's and he was keeping an eye on the job, as the years went by and he got older I had to wrap him in bubble wrap encase he tips over and hurt himself... Thank god my kids and nephews are older now, so I started little by little teach them the business when they home from college.


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## Easy E

Greg you hit it right on the nose perfectly.it's a closed case now, lol


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## Jaws

ready to roll said:


> Jaws said:
> 
> 
> 
> You dont have much reading comprehension, huh, hoss?
> 
> Where did he say they were illegal? Where did he say he doesn't have comp?
> 
> You know what happens when we assume....[/QUOTE I can see your on the defensive about this subject, but there's no need to be. Don't worry, be happy!
> 
> 
> 
> Not defensive at all, I could give two chits what you think, just an observation that reading and comprehending what your reading , for you, must be like doing a puzzle for my 3 year old.
> 
> I am from Texas, my family has been married into and bred with mexicans/latinos/hispanics/mexican americans for 7 generations, right after we took the land I'm standing on from Mexico.
> 
> So I generally tend to look down on folks who assume every Mexican they see working construction is under paid and illegal, its ignorant. If the dude doesn't speak good English I could understand, otherwise, its blatant prejudice. I already know I am an ass and that you are, so I will assume you are one of those folks from your posts.
> 
> Im a proud American, search my posts and you will see I am all about buying American and shutting down illegal immigration. But I also dont assume everybody who isnt German Irish is an illegal immigrant.
Click to expand...


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## ready to roll

Jaws said:


> ready to roll said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not defensive at all, I could give two chits what you think, just an observation that reading and comprehending what your reading , for you, must be like doing a puzzle for my 3 year old.
> 
> I am from Texas, my family has been married into and bred with mexicans/latinos/hispanics/mexican americans for 7 generations, right after we took the land I'm standing on from Mexico.
> 
> So I generally tend to look down on folks who assume every Mexican they see working construction is under paid and illegal, its ignorant. If the dude doesn't speak good English I could understand, otherwise, its blatant prejudice. I already know I am an ass and that you are, so I will assume you are one of those folks from your posts.
> 
> Im a proud American, search my posts and you will see I am all about buying American and shutting down illegal immigration. But I also dont assume everybody who isnt German Irish is an illegal immigrant.
> 
> 
> 
> Why the name calling? I never said Mexican americans. I said Illegals. I simply responded when a poster said that you cant find any americans who want to work. By the way, my grandson is half mexican american, my son is married to a mexican american, my cousin is half, and I have mexican american freinds. Go back and read my posts and you wont find any racist comment. I'm just pro american, no matter what color.
Click to expand...


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## Jaws

ready to roll said:


> Jaws said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why the name calling? I never said Mexican americans. I said Illegals. I simply responded when a poster said that you cant find any americans who want to work. By the way, my grandson is half mexican american, my son is married to a mexican american, my cousin is half, and I have mexican american freinds. Go back and read my posts and you wont find any racist comment. I'm just pro american, no matter what color.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, excuse me then. I took your automatic assumptions to say what I read.
> 
> I guess I shouldn't read between the lines. :thumbsup:
> 
> Carry on :thumbsup:
Click to expand...


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## blacktop

greg24k said:


> The facts are, that if Government send all the illegals back... like it or not, the economy in this country will crash because there will be no people to do the work...any type of work for that matter.


When Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin suggested that freeing the slaves should be written in the Constitution It was a no go..They all agreed that the country would fail without the labor in the fields .
I read that somewhere when I was a kid and it stuck with me. it amazed me that even then they knew slavery was wrong But had to continue with there narrow minded ways to keep the country strong.. A far cry from what the OP was asking ,but it seems very similar to the problem we have today . 


On a side note..
Just 1 mile from where I grew up . Thomas Jefferson's oldest daughter and her husband built a huge plantation . For a wedding gift Ole Tom gave them a slave girl [house slave] This young slave was also Thomas Jefferson's daughter . How messed up is that!!


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## Jaws

blacktop said:


> When Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin suggested that freeing the slaves should be written in the Constitution It was a no go..They all agreed that the country would fail without the labor in the fields .
> I read that somewhere when I was a kid and it stuck with me. it amazed me that even then they knew slavery was wrong But had to continue with there narrow minded ways to keep the country strong.. A far cry from what the OP was asking ,but it seems very similar to the problem we have today .
> 
> 
> On a side note..
> Just 1 mile from where I grew up . Thomas Jefferson's oldest daughter and her husband built a huge plantation . For a wedding gift Ole Tom gave them a slave girl [house slave] This young slave was also Thomas Jefferson's daughter . How messed up is that!!


Just requires short term sacrifice. The free market adjusts. 

Most people are wusses, not interested in sacrifices.


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## CITY DECKS INC

Jaws said:


> It is simple to me. Very simple.
> 
> If you immigrate illegally, its a felony. Prison time.
> 
> If you hire illegals, its a felony, prison time.
> 
> Couple thousand arrests it resolves itself. If it doesnt, up the sentence.


They tried that and over filled the prisons. Home Land Security released over 8000 illegals this past summer because they could not afford to hold until it was time for there trial. They stuck anckle bracelets on them because it only cost $14/day for teh bracelet as opposed to $140 per day in prison. They tried that and over filled the prisons. Home Land Security released over 8000 illegals this past summer because they could not afford to hold them anymore while they await trials. They stuck ankle bracelets on them because it only cost $14/day for the bracelet as opposed to $140 per day in prison. 
Has any one gotten any letters form INS, OSHA, or your payroll company beware of not checking your employees documents. Fines start at $100k to the employer and no jail time to the illegals. I had a couple but had to let them go last Xmas. Good for general labor basic carpentry but that was it. I had them for a long time and glad I let them go. I don't miss them but did go almost 9months with out a single mistake/redue you there selective no ablo mistakes. 

Focus on what you can control. The fed doesn't want to get rid of them they know most americans would rather suck up off the system and make and effort to better them selves. At least they show and will bleed for you day in day out. Training them is whole another story and time consuming. But there is very little point in investing too much time in them if there not legal.


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## CITY DECKS INC

Californiadecks said:


> Let me rephrase that, I've never in my 28 years had a Mexican do anything like that. You cant refute that.


in my 10years i have never seen a mex ***** or moan. there great full to work.


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## hdavis

Rio said:


> Here's one of the common responses libertarians will throw back; 'Well, if they dig a hole they'll have to lie in it or climb out on their own' but this is B.S. We, the responsible members of society, won't stand by and watch people dying in the street. We'll have to pony up and deal with all of the problems caused by the stupid, moronic, misplaced, idiotic and foolhardy policy of hard drug legalization. It makes much more sense to keep going after the problem rather then throwing our collective hands up in the air and saying 'go for it'. If you want to play in the hard drug sand box you should be prepared to get sand kicked in your face.


Hard drugs were legal for thousands of years; it's only recently that "control" was put in place. According to you, the good old days are the bad old days??? 

I had this conversation about 40 years ago with a student from Brazil. He said weed and coke were everywhere, but only trash used them so it wasn't a big problem. That's right, you were viewed as trash by your peer group if you were a drug user.

Some things automatically become "cool" if they're illegal - you're making the problem worse by giving it some prestige.


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## CITY DECKS INC

californiadecks said:


> not all, but there is a certain group in the america workforce that seem to think they're being mistreated if you work them too hard. It's sickening.


i tell them they go home.


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## CITY DECKS INC

Californiadecks said:


> I just hired and fired a guy within three days. Here's the story:
> 
> Drives up says do you need any laborers? I said sure can you work right now? Day one he's working out pretty good, day 2 he rolls up late, says his mom was in the hospital. I said sorry to hear that, but next time call. Day three, this is no lie, I'm screwing down decking with a stand up Simpson QuikDrive screw gun, his job is to pull the spacers put them a head of me and push the decking boards tight to the spacers, very easy job. I had him moving pretty good and he stands up says this is not labor work it's skilled labor. I said you are phucking kidding me aren't you. Then he says this is a lot more then just pushing a broom. I said nothing else I was pissed, I always keep "I'm pissed checks" in my truck. Handed him his check and said get the phuck off my job. Here's a pic of what he was doing. A Mexican worker would not of done that. Take that however you want. But that's the fact.
> 
> View attachment 103478


hey cali how much did you pay him...


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## CITY DECKS INC

Californiadecks said:


> I just hired and fired a guy within three days. Here's the story:
> 
> Drives up says do you need any laborers? I said sure can you work right now? Day one he's working out pretty good, day 2 he rolls up late, says his mom was in the hospital. I said sorry to hear that, but next time call. Day three, this is no lie, I'm screwing down decking with a stand up Simpson QuikDrive screw gun, his job is to pull the spacers put them a head of me and push the decking boards tight to the spacers, very easy job. I had him moving pretty good and he stands up says this is not labor work it's skilled labor. I said you are phucking kidding me aren't you. Then he says this is a lot more then just pushing a broom. I said nothing else I was pissed, I always keep "I'm pissed checks" in my truck. Handed him his check and said get the phuck off my job. Here's a pic of what he was doing. A Mexican worker would not of done that. Take that however you want. But that's the fact.
> 
> View attachment 103478


if its not labor then wtf is it...lol


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## Calidecks

CITY DECKS INC said:


> hey cali how much did you pay him...


I started him at 13 an hour. That's not bad for knowing nothing. I told him there's plenty of room to move up from there. I felt sorry for him because look at his age and he has no trade. I didn't want to insult him with too low of a wage. Now I know why he isn't working. I should've figured it out when we were on break he started telling me how the rich man is the reason for his despair. He is another victim. Guarantee you won't hear that from a foreign worker, illegal or not.


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## fast fred

Many many years ago when I was just a boy I was siding this house, billy the roofer was laying in the valley taking in the sun one fall afternoon. Now billy the roofer was a southern guy and took his time with everything he did, as I was siding the small wall I took my time too and talked to billy as he laid sprawled out in the valley.

He laughed as we watched the four or so mexicans on the house nearby running around like squirrels on the roof laying down shingles. Billy bet me that he could lay more shingles than that whole crew could in one day. I said billy I don't think you can, after another fifteen minutes laying in the valley billy went back to work by himself, sure enough he worked late into the day and laid more shingles than that whole crew. I have no idea how he did it.

The best thing is the house across the way, during a wind storm the ice and water sheild blew up like a parachute one day, they only bothered to staple it down on the edges and and some how the wind got under it and it just inflated and deflated like you could never imagine. It was the most bizzare sight. I guess it laid down just well enough to get those shingles down.

alright back to work


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## hdavis

fast fred said:


> billy the roofer was laying in the valley taking in the sun one fall afternoon.


Slow people used to get their pant leg nailed to the roof

Turns out he was fast:thumbup:


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## ready to roll

tombeck said:


> Wish I had time to read all the replies.
> 
> The bottom line and answer to the question is.....Most definitely!
> 
> 1) Wages have stagnated - even declined over the past 2-3 decades
> 
> 2) The fact that "Americans" don't want to do the work, may be due to the decline of social respect the "trades" have been beat down to.
> 
> What 18 yr old would want to enter the construction industry today? No one speaks English - most all the labor pool are "temporary" opportunists, with only goal to extract money from the U.S.....No intension of assimilation.....In fact there is more "diversity" than ever these days!
> 
> Gone, (for lack of better words), are the well-intentioned, "want to became an American", attitude of yester-year....Enter the current narcissistic, opportunist mentality of current times.....All the players- inept gov't, unscrupulous employers, as well as the illegals themselves.
> 
> However/in any event, as mentioned earlier - It's just too big a mess - To the point Mexico is critically dependent upon the money Illegals contribute to Mexico's economy. Last I heard AMEX transfers were second only to oil as Mexico's top gross national product. We just have to put our big boy pants on and deal w/it.....


I think your post is telling it exactly the way it is.


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## blacktop

1984? No thanks!


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## TNTRenovate

tombeck said:


> 2) The fact that "Americans" don't want to do the work, may be due to the decline of social respect the "trades" have been beat down to.
> 
> How is this a fact? I hear this all too often when discussing jobs illegals do. The facts that you speak of are conjured by perspective. Think like an illegal. You want to get a job that can first pay your cash, second has a skill set that translates to many areas of the country, third, allows you to find work any where you go, even if you have to stand in a parking lot for hours, fourth, one that does not required much int he way of proof of who you are or where you are from. So these supposed jobs that Americans don't want to do are not that at all, but jobs that are conducive to that life style.
> 
> What 18 yr old would want to enter the construction industry today? No one speaks English - most all the labor pool are "temporary" opportunists, with only goal to extract money from the U.S.....No intension of assimilation.....In fact there is more "diversity" than ever these days!
> 
> Again the answer is much easier than this. For the last 30 years college has been pushed by the state universities to gain more federal dollars. It has been pushed and pushed that you cannot be somebody or make any real money with a degree. At the same time high schools started phasing out and not promoting vocational classes. Many educators bought into the idea that college was the only way. School systems started teaching, not to educate, but in order to have better state test scores. Now with common core being adopted, even fewer schools will have time for the trades.
> 
> Gone, (for lack of better words), are the well-intentioned, "want to became an American", attitude of yester-year....Enter the current narcissistic, opportunist mentality of current times.....All the players- inept gov't, unscrupulous employers, as well as the illegals themselves.
> 
> However/in any event, as mentioned earlier - It's just too big a mess - To the point Mexico is critically dependent upon the money Illegals contribute to Mexico's economy. Last I heard AMEX transfers were second only to oil as Mexico's top gross national product. We just have to put our big boy pants on and deal w/it.....


In the end there are many factors, and one is young Americans don't want to be in the trades, but it isn't because they have looked at it from all angles and figured that it is not the way to go. It is the opposite. They are ignorant to what it is that we do and where it can take them.

We should push for the trade programs to be reintroduced into schools, sponsor co-op programs, participate in career days at local high schools and encourage this generation to seriously look at going into this industry.


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## pibe

Rio said:


> ...


Apologies if you felt i was skewing your message, that was not my intent. I asked how you can in good conscience, after me referring to the National Institute on Drug abuse findings of alcohol being the worst of the worst, say it should never have been made illegal while simultaneously advocating all of the lessers to remain illegal. That logic just doesnt follow for me sorry. (i also implied you might suggest that the drugs be legalized with government regulation/provisions...for some reason you speak of that for alcohol but for nothing else)

Also speaking of libertarian philosophy on drugs.

"In 2001, Portugal became the first European country to decriminalise possession of all drugs for personal use. The country introduced state-funded therapy programmes for abusers which have seen record number of people seeking help. Rates of HIV infection and drug-related deaths have also halved in the ten years since the new legislation."

Ill say again im not some big drug proponent...but it would seem that treating drug use as a health problem rather than a criminal problem leads to much less death(you keep bringing up families torn apart), infection from cross contamination(again the families), incarceration(families), people actually seeking medical attention for their problem because they dont have to worry about going to jail(families), and again with the deconstruction of these cartels that exist and make their money solely because the product they pedal is illegal.

Anyways...i think that was terribly off topic and will be my last response on the subject. I thought you(maybe others as well) might find Portugals findings, as well as their idea of handling the issue as a health problem rather than a problem of criminality, to be interesting at least.


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## brunothedog




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## brunothedog




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## procrpntr

There is no good solution to illegal immigrants, but I have noticed a change in the illegal demographic. I hear a lot more Slavic sounding language from it off area contractors. Due to the local level business we often have to use folks from the Sacramento, Redding area, for big commercial projects, and I have to say there aren't nearly as many illegal Hispanics, most Hispanics are third, fourth generation, that I see. I notice few people complain about the eastern European illegals. But I am seeing a lot of them. Basically I think any contractor who knowingly use illegals of any kind is absolute scum. Would like to see them find into bankruptcy


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## Calidecks

procrpntr said:


> There is no good solution to illegal immigrants, but I have noticed a change in the illegal demographic. I hear a lot more Slavic sounding language from it off area contractors. Due to the local level business we often have to use folks from the Sacramento, Redding area, for big commercial projects, and I have to say there aren't nearly as many illegal Hispanics, most Hispanics are third, fourth generation, that I see. I notice few people complain about the eastern European illegals. But I am seeing a lot of them. Basically I think any contractor who knowingly use illegals of any kind is absolute scum. Would like to see them find into bankruptcy


Do you ask your subs workers for their papers if they're Hispanic looking? If you do that can open you up to a lot more trouble then having illegals working on your job. If not then you can't say for sure you don't have illegals on your jobs. Also I might add Cali regulates everything except illegals, they seem to think that is racist. After all it could be a problem with their voting base. Simply put if your the politician that's for arresting illegals, it doesn't sit well with the legal Hispanic base.


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## TNTRenovate

brunothedog said:


> View attachment 103639


Ahh, yes the ego manic has spoken. Since he is done with destroying the thread, it must be dead.

Bruno, if you don't like the continued discussion hit the unsubscribe button and stop trolling threads trying to boost your post count. It is not a dead horse just because you say so. Move along!


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## procrpntr

Californiadecks said:


> Do you ask your subs workers for their papers if they're Hispanic looking? If you do that can open you up to a lot more trouble then having illegals working on your job. If not then you can't say for sure you don't have illegals on your jobs. Also I might add Cali regulates everything except illegals, they seem to think that is racist. After all it could be a problem with their voting base. Simply put if your the politician that's for arresting illegals, it doesn't sit well with the legal Hispanic base.


I suppose I wasn't clear. It seems when you say illegal immigrant most people assume Hispanics. I was pointing out I am noticing growing numbers of non Hispanic immigrant labor. Assuming you filed your I-9 forms for each employee you hire, it would be hard to claim you knowingly hired illegals. We do try to avoid subs that use illegal labor, in the same way we avoid subs that aren't liked by OSHA . The problem is you don't know it until after you've worked them at least once. 
Does the CSLB post that information, will have to look. Be handy to know.


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## brunothedog

TNTSERVICES said:


> Ahh, yes the ego manic has spoken. Since he is done with destroying the thread, it must be dead.
> 
> Bruno, if you don't like the continued discussion hit the unsubscribe button and stop trolling threads trying to boost your post count. It is not a dead horse just because you say so. Move along!



you seem like a, well, educated man.
i tried to search for picts of what you do, strange, maybe i messed up but i couldn't find any,
so, whats left for me to say?
what is it again you do?

here's a form for ya.
I'm sure it will pass


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## Calidecks

procrpntr said:


> I suppose I wasn't clear. It seems when you say illegal immigrant most people assume Hispanics. I was pointing out I am noticing growing numbers of non Hispanic immigrant labor. Assuming you filed your I-9 forms for each employee you hire, it would be hard to claim you knowingly hired illegals. We do try to avoid subs that use illegal labor, in the same way we avoid subs that aren't liked by OSHA . The problem is you don't know it until after you've worked them at least once. Does the CSLB post that information, will have to look. Be handy to know.


How do you know even after you've used them once? It's illegal to check someone else's employees. The nationality is irrelevant, although I did say Hispanic to make a point because those folks are easily profiled. So again how do you check someone else's employee's? You can't just go by how they look or sound that is not legal either. So with that said, and you get a sub on your job with an illegal you can't verify, does that make you the same scum you were saying others were?


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## TNTRenovate

brunothedog said:


> you seem like a, well, educated man.
> i tried to search for picts of what you do, strange, maybe i messed up but i couldn't find any,
> so, whats left for me to say?
> what is it again you do?
> 
> here's a form for ya.
> I'm sure it will pass
> View attachment 103663
> 
> 
> View attachment 103664


If you cannot find pics (not picts) of what I do, you are really more of an idiot than I thought. Your stupidity continues to amaze me.


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## brunothedog

thank you


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## brunothedog

coming from you its a compliment

did you fill out the form yet?


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## TNTRenovate

brunothedog said:


> coming from you its a compliment
> 
> did you fill out the form yet?


Yep! When I turned it in I told them where I got it. Funny, they said you have a frequent flyer card and don't have to wiat in line turning yours in any more.

And they said that if you promise to reduce it down to 3 a day, you can return back to the US.


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## Jaws

We are all done here, guys.


----------

