# Do you get a little $$ upfront?



## Martin (Sep 26, 2004)

My title may be a little confusing. Do most of you ask for some type of deposit before starting large jobs, where you're providing all materials and labor?

How do you all do this? 1/2 down balance paid in full at completion, or do you take a draw at different job completion points?

Some of you may have the equity, line of credit, or MONEY to not require a deposit.

I always try to get something upfront...never half, but enough to handle the initial materials and payroll for 2 weeks*.

I'm 4 day's off from going into a 9600 sq ft new home. On my signed proposal I specified $2800.00 down, $3000.00 after all trim and doors are sprayed and First coating the walls begin with the balance paid in full at the end. 

I just went to pick up my deposit in order to secure the first round of Materials ($965.00) They told me "Yeah, we saw that on your bid but we don't pay deposits." 

Exscuse me....I'm expected to have the money for materials and 3 to 4 peoples payroll for the next 4 weeks? :evil: 

-Martin


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

I almost asked this question about a week ago. 
Even on small jobs I try to get at least 30% down and collect the rest at the end of the job. But I know there are a few guys around here that want nothing down. I have a hard time with that.

Thoughts?


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## Dale (Aug 26, 2004)

Martin, If they saw that on the proposal and signed it get the money. Theres a good article in the months PWC mag. on just that topic. A point is made that " when you don't make the customer stick to your payment schedule, then you're accepting the homeowners new payment schedule"..if you do that then you give the homeowner or whoever all the control....an agreement is an agreement.



Martin said:


> My title may be a little confusing. Do most of you ask for some type of deposit before starting large jobs, where you're providing all materials and labor?
> 
> How do you all do this? 1/2 down balance paid in full at completion, or do you take a draw at different job completion points?
> 
> ...


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## Richard_GL (Aug 25, 2004)

Dale said:


> Martin, If they saw that on the proposal and signed it get the money. Theres a good article in the months PWC mag. on just that topic. A point is made that " when you don't make the customer stick to your payment schedule, then you're accepting the homeowners new payment schedule"..if you do that then you give the homeowner or whoever all the control....an agreement is an agreement.


On that same note, they agreed to your payment terms but now want to renegotiate? Ask them if theyve ever heard the term "Breach of Contract" Nothing personal, its just business. But you are not a finance company, but ask them if they require financing youd be happy to recalculate with short term finance charges which are thru the roof and still require a down payment. 
Our contract states 50% down to retain and schedule and 50% at complteion. If they balk at your business savy let them know you will seek the full contract price plus costs to recover damages and time lost. Projects that start this way IMO always go down hill from there, but stick to your guns .


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

1/3 down at signing/scheduling
1/3 draw after 7 working days
1/3 final payment on completion

They said "we don't do deposits" LOL.....Richard is right, its called breach of contract, if its already been signed. Hopefully you have a good contract that will stand up in court. And he also says it will only go down hill from here, that is soooooo true. Good luck.


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

ProWallGuy said:


> 1/3 down at signing/scheduling
> 1/3 draw after 7 working days
> 1/3 final payment on completion


I know I'm kinda off topic (sorry)

Anyways... what you do on small jobs ProWall?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Currently - and I say currently because things could change if I find a better way.

My payment schedule is:

5% deposit at time of contract signing. (non-refundable)
47.5% at 1/2 way point (determined by contractor)
47.5% due at completion.

I explain that to the customer and let them know that the 5% guarantees them a place in my schedule, and it is non-refundable because once they are scheduled that time is taken and I have to turn away work or schedule it later. So far I have had no complaints in regard to the non-refundable issue. Customers seem to understand the logic and I have even had people say how they don't have a problem with that, it makes sense to them.

This stuff isn't spelled out on my estimate. It is on the contract. If they accept the estimate, excepting the contract is pretty much a given. I only work with homeowner's.


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## hatchet (Oct 27, 2003)

On small projects I will do a draw schedule but larger projects I ask for 15% down for mobilization and initial procurement of materials then monthly payment requests.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

30% down on normal jobs. If special order, non returnable materials, need to be ordered I make sure my downpayment covers at least the cost of those materials. Note I said 30% minimum.

If the job is a long job in stages I then require progress payments upon completion of each stage. For example if I am doing a whole exterior make over (Roofing, Siding, Gutters, Windows) then I get a progress payment after the roof, after the windows, after the siding. 

If the job is just a roof or just a siding I usually just collect final payment when the job is done. If the job is less than $1,000 I usually dont take a downpayment.


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

Half down on materials at time of order.
The remaining materials paid before it leaves my warehouse to be installed
Labor due upon completion


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

> Anyways... what you do on small jobs ProWall?


It depends on my schedule, and the vibes i get from the customer. 
Lets call a small job: 1 man, 1 day. 
If I'm real busy, like this time of the year, I don't ask for a down payment. If the customer decides to bail on me, I can easily fill it with one of the many other customers waiting in line, or send that man to a larger job in progress. 
I have yet to have a customer bail on a non-down payment job, on the day the job is supposed to start, so I guess I'm lucky there. 

If its a slow time of the year, I get a down payment no matter what, because I spent my time to sell the job, I don't want to have to struggle to refill that slot. My contract states 1/3 down, customer has a right to cancel in 3 business days, with a full refund of down. After midnight of the third day, if they choose to cancel, I refund all the money, except I retain 10% of the price of the complete job. Example: $300 job, I get $100 down. Six days later, they cancel, I give back all but $30. 

So far, I have only had about 5 cancellations in about 10 years, all had good reasons, such as one customer was transferred out of state, another's wife died in a car accident, etc. If its a tragic reason, like the accident, (had another who's son was murdered the night before a job was to start), I refund 100%, because I am just that kind of guy.


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## Bouch (Oct 7, 2004)

Hey all, new to this site. I am a Gas Fitter by trade but have been doing general contracting for money on the side for a few years. I have never really quoted jobs on a professional level, just going by what I feal is fair to myself. I do it more to pass time on off days more than anything. As of lately I have been getting more jobs and have a oppertunity to do a job with approx. 15'000 sq.ft exterior painting. My question to anyone here who can help me is this:
i am painting over existing paint just darker colour
What would I charge per sq.ft for saufit?
What ----------------------- for facia?
What------------------------ for aluminum siding?
What------------------------ wooden exterior?
I took the time to work out all the measurements per material being painted and WILL definately be doing a quote by the books. I would DEFINATELY appreciate help here with some numbers as I dont want to go into this quote too high/low. Thanks all for your time reading this.


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## Dale (Aug 26, 2004)

Bouch, Nobodys going to respond with out more info and even then all you'll get is ballpark figures. some questions may be..what are the measurements of soffit and fascia..1 coat 2 coats prime... access...condition of siding both aluminium and wood ...environment around building ..1 story or more?.. windows? doors? etc....post some pics if you can. good luck


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2004)

Dale said:


> Bouch, Nobodys going to respond with out more info and even then all you'll get is ballpark figures. some questions may be..what are the measurements of soffit and fascia..1 coat 2 coats prime... access...condition of siding both aluminium and wood ...environment around building ..1 story or more?..  windows? doors? etc....post some pics if you can. good luck


I should of went into detail. The saufit is 2 feet wide and and between 150-175 feet long on 2 seperate row homes? front & back with 2 coates. The siding is in good shape and only needs to be pressure washed and the wood is also in good condition with just pressure washing in some spots. The saufit is very easily accessable approx. 8 feet high and with no obstruction and in good condition just needing a cleaning. There is a total of 56 ground level windows to cut around.I just want to know a ballpark figure for each. I went with a base price for the doors. Not much prep involved, pretty much just pressure washing. I don't have a digital camra yet so cannot post pics. Thank you for your reply and if anyone could help with ballpark figures I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks


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## Martin (Sep 26, 2004)

Martin said:


> My title may be a little confusing. Do most of you ask for some type of deposit before starting large jobs, where you're providing all materials and labor?
> 
> How do you all do this? 1/2 down balance paid in full at completion, or do you take a draw at different job completion points?
> 
> ...






I'm well into this job. I had a HD failure and have been offline for a couple of weeks. Tonight I was re-reading my post and noticed this typo..._..."I'm 4 day's off from going into a 9600 sq ft new home. On my signed proposal I specified $2800.00 down, $3000.00 after all trim and doors are sprayed and First coating the walls begin with the balance paid in full at the end......_

The $3000.00 after trim and doors was a typo error...good LORD ALMIGHTY...I wish I could make and collect that.........That was typo error...I am not getting "THAT" kind of money./...lol....

Just wanted to make that correction...

-Martin


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

Martin, did they ever pay you the deposit? I, and I'm sure others, are curious to know what happened...

As for payment schedules, this is what I do.

Fences - 50% prior to start, 50% due upon completion
Decks - 33% prior to start, 33% due after completion of framing, 34% balance due upon completion i.e. once all work is completed, site is spotless and the customer is happy.


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## premierpainting (Nov 2, 2004)

40% down- full payment when 100% satisfied. Big jobs require 100% of estimated material cost 40% of labor cost then 30% half way and final at the end


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## premierpainting (Nov 2, 2004)

For a 9500 sq footer you should be getting that $$ We would charge- just shy of $35,000- I hope your kidding


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

30% upfront plus a draw schedule based on the scope of the work.


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## Martin (Sep 26, 2004)

DecksEtc said:


> Martin, did they ever pay you the deposit? I, and I'm sure others, are curious to know what happened...
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

If the amount is on the contract and it is signed, collect it prior to starting work. The time to negotiate is before the signing not after, this is business 101. Years ago I got everything except profit upfront
Martin, you need to build a warchest to cover unseen expenses. I was going to say that you should never have to take money from your personal accounts but back to back hurricanes and another month of waiting for ins. checks to arrive tempered that thought. My payroll is nearly $20K a week and 10 wks without income pretty well devastated my warchest. Without work we concentrated on employee home repair, deferring material costs to credit until the ins, checks come in. Again my nickel. I did have to sell a few personal items to make ends meet and not have to go through the hassle of an SBA loan. Ces't la Vie!
Fortunately all businesses are screaming right now and I could use another 20 guys. I still have to caress some creditors whose computers jacked up some interest rates but this is easily done.
Nathan, if I sell my businesses and retire am I still welcome here? I'm right on the edge now.


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

Martin, glad to hear it worked out, for the most part anyway.

Also, in case anyone is interested, I have an amendment to my pay schedule:

30% down payment at time of contract being signed
30% once materials arrive on site
40% due upon completion

All of the above is regardless of the structure, deck, fence, pergola, screen, arbor, whatever.

Also, I have the contract stipulate that the homeowner is responsible for the materials once they arrive on site.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

DecksEtc said:


> Also, I have the contract stipulate that the homeowner is responsible for the materials once they arrive on site.


Hey, where were you a few months ago when I was the only one here arguing for that clause? You and I seem to be the only ones that understand that! :Thumbs: 

The updated clause in my contract reads:

STORAGE
JOB MATERIALS TO BE STORED ON CUSTOMERS PROPERTY AS DIRECTED BY CONTRACTOR AND BECOME THE PHYSICAL AND FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY OF CUSTOMER ONCE DELIVERED. CUSTOMER ACKNOWLEDGES THAT STORAGE OF JOB MATERIALS AND CONTRACTOR TOOLS MAY RENDER DRIVEWAYS, YARDS, GARAGES OR INTERIOR ROOMS OF HOME UNUSABLE FOR DURATION OF PROJECT.


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

Sorry Mike, I just recently got things more formalized, etc. I am taking things up a notch and switching from it being a part-time business to going full-time com March/April '05. The wording of the clause in my contract is as follows:

2. Title and ownership in and to the materials shall remain in seller at buyers risk until the entire purchase price, interest and all costs are fully paid in cash including payment of any note, renewal note, or extension given judgment secured. Buyer will not part with possession of the materials and will keep the materials in good condition and free and clear of all liens and encumbrances. Seller may pay any item or charge upon the materials or property to which the materials are affixed and add the amount thereof to the amount hereby secured and the whole amount hereby secured shall fall due forthwith.

Also, I do like the second sentence in your clause. I think I may just add it in - of course, as long as it is okay with you...


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

I have some clauses in my contracts but I truly hate having clasues like this one. I am not trying to be a smart ass but do you even understand what that jibberish means? I try to word all my clauses in plain english.


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

Yes, I do understand it - I didn't write it but I do understand it. I'm not a huge fan of clauses either but the contract I have and am using was supplied by the company I am now associated with - they have a lot more experience in this area so I am relying on them. However, I am free to make any changes/amendments to it whenever I want. I was just posting it here as information for others.

Back to the actual clause itself though, I do believe it's important to have one along these lines. In my business of building decks, I can have a lot of expensive wood on site at a customer's home at any one time and I cannot sit there and watch it all night, etc. Having the buyer responsible for it (or their house insurance) protects me. The potential of having $5,000, $10,000 or more of cedar stolen could really cut into my profit margins. Also, I do a lot of decks and fences in new subdivisions - an area that is very prone to having new homeowners in the area "help themselves". A lot of them think that all the wood on site belongs to the builder and think "they're building 100+ houses, who's going to miss it?" Having the buyer responsible for anything left on site makes for better peace of mind on my part.

Grumpy, I'm not expecting you to agree, I'm just offering my opinion and the reasons for it...


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Well I disagree with damned near every opinion unless it's my opinion.

Is the clause needed? Maybe (I actually have a strong opinion about that as well, but I will refrain for now). It should be simplified though. Personally I feel I am a somewhat educated person (others may disagree) and I get lost reading that run on paragraph of legal horse manure. 

I am one person that reads contracts before I sign them and I'd read yours then tell you I'd "have to think about it" because it is legal horse manure that is literally confusing. I have clauses in my contract but like I said they are all plain english. If you can't understand my clauses you need to be put back in 8th grade. Non threatening and very comprehensive.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Grumpy said:


> Well I disagree with damned near every opinion unless it's my opinion.


 For once, can't you just be straight-up with everybody? Spare us the pleasantries. :cheesygri


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

Okay Grumpy, I'll agree that the clause is too wordy and does need to be simplified. One of my winter "to do's" is to amend and re-write the few clauses in my contract. Perhaps I'll ask your opinion when I'm done 

When it comes to the need for this particular clause, I'll say that we can "agree to disagree". I feel it is a necessary evil for my particular company/industry.


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## trekr (Jul 6, 2004)

Wow! That is one scary clause.  

While I understand the lawyers need to cover all bases, I vote to cover 'most' bases with straight forward language. I could very likely eat something in court because I missed a herewith or heretofore, but i choose to risk it. I wholeheartedly agree in the necessity of the clause though.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Decks, I will be thge first to admit that just because the opinion is mine doesn't mean it's right... hell it's usually rejected by the masses. The point is to ask someone else their opinion first. But not a lawyer. A lawyer will lengthen that single clause by 1 fold.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

DecksEtc said:


> In my business of building decks, I can have a lot of expensive wood on site at a customer's home at any one time and I cannot sit there and watch it all night, etc. Having the buyer responsible for it (or their house insurance) protects me. The potential of having $5,000, $10,000 or more of cedar stolen could really cut into my profit margins. Also, I do a lot of decks and fences in new subdivisions - an area that is very prone to having new homeowners in the area "help themselves". A lot of them think that all the wood on site belongs to the builder and think "they're building 100+ houses, who's going to miss it?" Having the buyer responsible for anything left on site makes for better peace of mind on my part.


Holy crap that sounds like it is coming out of my mouth!

Actually it did. I'm glad there is somebody here finally that knows what I was talking about. 

I will do everything I can to ensure I am getting the best materials to the job site, even hand picking some lumber, and I will do my best to protect it once it hits the site by placement and covers and such. But I'm not gonna be responsible for the owners kids building temporary skate board ramps out of it, or riding their bikes off the pile or the wife backing over it, or some body backing their pick up to it and loading up a few thousand dollars of it, or whatever you think of. 

That was my whole point, once it hits the customers driveway he needs to take some culpability in protecting it. That type of clause helps you with that.

DecksEtc - I just thought your contract was worded that way because it was in Canadian. :cheesygri :cheesygri :cheesygri


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

I'm glad to have received everyone's input (even though I didn't start this thread). If you guys think that one was full of legaleez, you should see some of the other clauses in the contract I was given. But, like I said, I am free to edit it as I see fit. 
_"DecksEtc - I just thought your contract was worded that way because it was in Canadian."_

Mike, thanks for the laugh!!! As to the clause, you and I are definitely on the same page, I just can't afford to have the potential to be hit by theft and then have to re-order the wood.

Just to have some fun and stir the pot a bit more, I'm sure some of you will have some fun with my clause regarding permits...

_3. It is understood and agreed that unless otherwise stipulated in writing, obtaining of any building permit and complying with local building by-laws is the Buyer’s responsibility._


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