# Flipping houses



## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

I don't think we have them that cheap on this side of the mitt, but I don't look either. 

The quality of work on the flips are atrocious. Been behind a couple and the real loser is the poor home owner buying the covered up crap.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I can't deal with lipstick on a pig and that is what you need to do to make any money flipping.


...and that's even assuming there's a sales market.
We need the market of free money again...to anyone and everyone, multiple times, multiple identities--we were all winners and all so rich!


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## WilsonRMDL (Sep 4, 2007)

I did a lot of flips in the Farmington hills/southfield Mi areas and they were garbage, somehow the guy rented them all out section 8 quickly. 

Keep in kind your fixing them up to make money, not live in them.
Personal touch is the fastest way to lose money


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Paulie said:


> I don't think we have them that cheap on this side of the mitt, but I don't look either.
> 
> The quality of work on the flips are atrocious. Been behind a couple and the real loser is the poor home owner buying the covered up crap.


I doubt you could do a quality job with decent materials and make money on a flip. You have to use the cheapest of the cheap and cut corners everywhere you can. We bought our house for $130k which was pretty cheap as it was our family's house. Even with me doing all the work so no labour charges and putting over $40k into the house I have only gained $35k:blink: the only way I could have made money was to half ass the whole job, use sub par materials and like some say polish a turd to make any money. I still need a new furnace, new AC unit, new roof, basement bathroom and 4 bedroom to finish so I prob got another $15k to go into it still and there's no way it's gonna increase in value anymore as its already the best house in the neibourhood.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Paulie said:


> I don't think we have them that cheap on this side of the mitt, but I don't look either.


Kalamazoo, Benton Harbor, Muskegon - prolly do.


> The quality of work on the flips are atrocious. Been behind a couple and the real loser is the poor home owner buying the covered up crap.


Birds of a feather flock together. Those buyers seek their own level...

The 300K & up market (using Ann Arbor just 'cuz), the "flips" generally start out solid, are NOT 18 month REOs, and just get "2012 look" refreshing. Like I said earlier, new boxes, granite, carpet & real tile - . Margins (after costs) are running close to 40% - which is what the major builder I worked for back in "the crazy days" was getting.

They move, because they are move-in ready for those techie transfers moving to U of M, or one of the corps connected TO U of M in some way.

On the other hand, the stuff out MY way is crap - just GD C-R-A-P.

Mind you now, there's a huge difference between rental fix-ups and flips.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

BCConstruction said:


> I doubt you could do a quality job with decent materials and make money on a flip. You have to use the cheapest of the cheap and cut corners everywhere you can. We bought our house for $130k which was pretty cheap as it was our family's house. Even with me doing all the work so no labour charges and putting over $40k into the house I have only gained $35k:blink: the only way I could have made money was to half ass the whole job, use sub par materials and like some say polish a turd to make any money. I still need a new furnace, new AC unit, new roof, basement bathroom and 4 bedroom to finish so I prob got another $15k to go into it still and there's no way it's gonna increase in value anymore as its already the best house in the neibourhood.


Wrong on first sentence! Self inflicted financial burden when you paid too much for your house and 15g isnt going to fix that list. Flipping houses is much harder but way more profitable than contract remodeling. I just rehabbed a townhouse and made 42g in 2 months and have another house with a high 30 profit and a sister house on same street that has potentially 35g. These three jobs accounted for about 1/4 of my yearly gross. Your generalizations about rehabbing houses is off base. Supporting the idea of paying too much to start with has probably led you to that assumption.


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## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

SmallTownGuy;1577411 [B said:


> ]Kalamazoo, Benton Harbor, Muskegon - prolly do[/B].
> 
> 
> Birds of a feather flock together. Those buyers seek their own level...
> ...


LOL Yeah kinda was just thinking GR. Forgot about them.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Shellbuilder said:


> Wrong on first sentence! Self inflicted financial burden when you paid too much for your house and 15g isnt going to fix that list. Flipping houses is much harder but way more profitable than contract remodeling. I just rehabbed a townhouse and made 42g in 2 months and have another house with a high 30 profit and a sister house on same street that has potentially 35g. These three jobs accounted for about 1/4 of my yearly gross. Your generalizations about rehabbing houses is off base. Supporting the idea of paying too much to start with has probably led you to that assumption.


It would be great to get them cheaper but it just don't happen. You seen how many people goto these auctions. Your bidding against people who will move straight in as is and wannabe contractors who don't know what to pay for property. I wouldn't pay half the price some of these people are paying but for my property I was gonna be living in it and it but it was Just not the interior style I wanted so cost me a lot to get it how I wanted. I could have put $2k paint job on it and sold it for a $10k profit the next day but it still would have been a turd. Like is aid to make any money on these places you either have to do sub par work to them and move them stupidly quick or get them for the cost of the land. I won't put my name on sub par work so I'm holding out until one of these great deals falls on my lap.


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## Five Star (Jan 15, 2009)

jamestrd said:


> a house for 5,000?
> 
> in america?
> 
> I am completely out of touch..NJ you couldnt own a trailer for that


Sure you can, a5x8 popup trailer, but to park it is probably 10k in taxes on a bare lot!


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

5000 might put a roof on my house


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## Five Star (Jan 15, 2009)

The biggest hurdle on buying for rental purposes is getting a loan, unless you show good income or pay completely cash and ride out the storm so to speak you can do ok if you don't over pay! Anything is better than what the bank is giving for savings interest, last I looked was .4% ! If you got cash and make 8% or better on a rental and you got time to kill rental can be a decent investment and when things pick up you can liquidate


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

BCConstruction said:


> It would be great to get them cheaper but it just don't happen.


 It happens everyday, if youre waiting for them to fall in your lap….well…good luck with that plan. You're broad stroke brushing the reno business , it takes business savvy to buy, fix and sell. FYI, auctions and short sales are not the way to go. Theres a lot of networking skills, negotiating skills and floor plan and decorating knowledge. My fiance is one of the most well known designers in the area and can make one of my houses out shine new construction. Ive flipped at lest 50 houses, all sold within 60 days with commission and cc and all had at least a 12% ROI.


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## Five Star (Jan 15, 2009)

Shellbuilder said:


> It happens everyday, if youre waiting for them to fall in your lap….well…good luck with that plan. You're broad stroke brushing the reno business , it takes business savvy to buy, fix and sell. FYI, auctions and short sales are not the way to go. Theres a lot of networking skills, negotiating skills and floor plan and decorating knowledge. My fiance is one of the most well known designers in the area and can make one of my houses out shine new construction. Ive flipped at lest 50 houses, all sold within 60 days with commission and cc and all had at least a 12% ROI.


Your right the forclosures and short sales are usually what the market value is, and barely any room for improvement and profit, homeowners see short sale they get all excited but you can usually find better deals if youhave a good realtor who keeps there eyes open and you know how to put the right offers


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Five Star said:


> Your right the forclosures and short sales are usually what the market value is, and barely any room for improvement and profit, homeowners see short sale they get all excited but you can usually find better deals if youhave a good realtor who keeps there eyes open and you know how to put the right offers


This is true, for realtors you need to be the go to guy who will write an offer and particularly after the junked up, bad plan, filthy mess or home inspection nightmare listing is going south. I was a realtor in the 70s for a while and had a couple deals that just needed a contractor to buy the house. . By buying these houses you are solving someones problem.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

Shellbuilder said:


> It happens everyday, if youre waiting for them to fall in your lap….well…good luck with that plan. You're broad stroke brushing the reno business , it takes business savvy to buy, fix and sell. FYI, auctions and short sales are not the way to go. Theres a lot of networking skills, negotiating skills and floor plan and decorating knowledge. My fiance is one of the most well known designers in the area and can make one of my houses out shine new construction. Ive flipped at lest 50 houses, all sold within 60 days with commission and cc and all had at least a 12% ROI.



wow!..and no TV show?


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## Chopsaw Chick (May 6, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Omg are you Nicole the rehab hotty?


Ha, ha, no. But we do have a lot in common and some days I think I need a reality show. The guys at HD say I'm the hottest GC in town. I figure that's pretty much like being the best hockey player from Jamaica! :jester:


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Shellbuilder said:


> Flipping houses is much harder but way more profitable than contract remodeling.


Correction: A person _skillful in the science of house flipping_ stands to make much more money for the same amount of contract work as he/she would _if remodeling_.

Because the skill set here is not only getting the costs to the penny, but the old adage of location, location, location, and putting in *only the stuff the buyer is looking for* - not what the flipper likes to imagine in his/her own place.

The question is always "What will make this place sell" - not "What would make this place nice".

As an aside: I've been doing this for awhile too, and of the several people I know doing it, NONE buy at auction.

Which is why I said before, that it takes a different mentality than the one that causes a contractor to want to be on the job every day, using his tools.

FACT: Give me two identical houses, both with old, ungrounded outlets, crappy plumbing, old furnace & water heater, junk roof, busted up front door, driveway, etc.

One, I do everything "right" - everything I mentioned gets brought up to code - and to stay in budget, I used Formica counters, decent boxes, $4/yd carpet & Std shingles, basic new front door & quality 2-coat paint. Driveway gets ripped and replaced. Requires permits too.

The other, I leave the wiring, the furnace, maybe replace the heater, but plumbing is left as is. Wired smokes plus C/O detector, Granite counters, cheap boxes, just enough paint/KILZ to cover, deep pile carpet, arch grade shingles Kick-*ss front door, driveway gets seal-coated & crack-filled, even if its busted up concrete - THIS ONE WILL SELL FIRST, EVERY TIME.

It will appraise higher, show lower on the tax roles (no permits were pulled - so no equalization), insurance will be WAY less, and show better for the seller`agent.

IT IS A DIFFERENT BUSINESS - like softball vs hardball, both use a bat & ball - both have rules - not much else in common.

To the guys concerned about "quality" and feeling sorry for the buyer: Remember - the buyer had the opportunity of choosing either house - they will choose the "looker" every time. For them, this one IS the quality house.

This is NOT about a contractors personal values - it IS about being successful by meeting market demand.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Shellbuilder said:


> It happens everyday, if youre waiting for them to fall in your lap….well…good luck with that plan. You're broad stroke brushing the reno business , it takes business savvy to buy, fix and sell. FYI, auctions and short sales are not the way to go. Theres a lot of networking skills, negotiating skills and floor plan and decorating knowledge. My fiance is one of the most well known designers in the area and can make one of my houses out shine new construction. Ive flipped at lest 50 houses, all sold within 60 days with commission and cc and all had at least a 12% ROI.


I'm aint been waiting for them to fall in my lap but its clear this happens to some people I have been looking for the last 3 years ever since I bought my first place. Have a lot of friends who are realtors who let me know when propertys are avalible "cheap" I do the majority of work my self to keep costs down and can get the majority of remodel materials for cost. But it still don't change the fact that to make money you would have to do a sub par job. Anyone who says otherwise in this economy ain't got the first clue and have no idea what qulaity work is. We all know what goes into a house to remodel it correctly and it's almost as cheap to tear it down and start from scratch. The big company's around here that do 5-6 houses a year claim they do the best work. That's about as far from the truth as it comes. Get within 5ft of the work and it's a mess but I understand why as they need to make money and it's the only way to make money. 

I just ain't willing to do crap work to make a wage each month but everyone's different.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Correction: A person _skillful in the science of house flipping_ stands to make much more money for the same amount of contract work as he/she would _if remodeling_.
> 
> Because the skill set here is not only getting the costs to the penny, but the old adage of location, location, location, and putting in *only the stuff the buyer is looking for* - not what the flipper likes to imagine in his/her own place.
> 
> ...


My point exactly. It takes a certain kind of person to put out a turd and polish it. I ain't worried about the buyer I'm worried about how my product is seen. I would be rammed with work if I done work the way most customers wanted but I won't do it. There are people about though who will do this and normally they are not good contractors. They are out to make a quick $ ain't ain't concerned about much else.

As you said most customers wouldn't know the difference in quality between a quality house and a poor quality house. They just look at granite counter tops, tiled floors, new windows, nice front door, nice big TV on the wall but don't look at the stuff that really costs money like the roof, furnace, AC, plumbing, electrical, foundation, structure, insulation etc etc


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Well in a city near my area, there are numerous properties for less than 50k.

My goal would to be to get one of those properties for about 35k, put 20-30k back in it and sell it for the 100k or more the other houses in the area go for.

Fancy things aren't going in those houses. There won't be any tile floors, extravagant bathrooms, $10/yd carpet, etc.

It's a business to make money.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

CO762 said:


> I was talking about NEW CONSTRUCTION. It's pretty much barf plastic and barf engineered (fake) everything. Be interesting to see if they used any metal nails or were able to either snap together everything or just glue it. Doing both would seem to be so low tech.......


The new stuff is worse in some cases. The ones we looked at at the beach were awful. 2 of them passed my inspection and I could only find 2 issues which were minor but the majority is knocked up so cheap and quick no thought went into them at all. A lot of $500k plus houses around here don't even have insulation in the walls.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

CO762 said:


> Yup, The Great Migration. That's what economic growth does....it creates wealth....


EXACTLY The more money is turned over, the more new wealth is generated.



> It's really a shame as places like MI has a lot of very skilled people. It's ripe for businesses wanting/needing skilled people. Their governance just gets in the way. OH is the same way, but the governor as changed that. Don't know much about indiana other than it's flat. WI also has a very skilled workforce. The states to watch are WI/OH vs. MI/IL. All four have a very skilled workforce, so their respective governance is the only difference.


That keys into what I posted earlier. During my years on this planet, I've watched as specific industries have done the profit/wage/government bleed dance: textiles, aircraft, steel, the list is long.

It doesn't just go downhill - it implodes. The recovery would be faster each time, except the mindset (read government expectations) remains stuck on those earlier glory days.

I just farmed myself out in Ann Arbor for a month - first time in years and years, just to get paid to see the lay of the land. There, U of M and related industries is/are driving a fairly remarkable tech-based growth. But, all new housing starts are at what we would (traditionally) call move-up & higher pricing/quality points.

No 1st timers, no empty-nesters, no blue-collar box houses. When that has been going on long enough, some of them are going to turn entrepreneurial and so manufacturing startups right here.

The high-end suburbs that surround Detroit have seen little of the traditional growth & I suspect Ann Arbor (regionally) will become the defacto manufacturing center for the southeast part of Michigan, instead of Detroit.
[/QUOTE]

I think a fair bit of land bought on housing speculation back in the earlier part of the decade are going to end up going back to working crop/pasture.


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## Windwash (Dec 23, 2007)

SmallTownGuy said:


> EXACTLY The more money is turned over, the more new wealth is generated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"I think a fair bit of land bought on housing speculation back in the earlier part of the decade are going to end up going back to working crop/pasture."

The Minneapolis Star/Tribune had an article this summer about farmers buying back land for $5-7,000/acre that they had originally sold to developers for $100,000+/acre. Heres a link http://www.startribune.com/business/161867185.html


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## thezoo (Sep 13, 2008)

wow this whole thread "there are bad people in this world who only care about $$$", like duh? Wonder what auto mechanics say about other auto hack mechanics? Come on really? Only house flippers have unethical participants? 

I have trouble getting people to pay for rotten sh*t that must be repaired, alot simply don't have the $$$.

I don't think anything in real estate has changed, buy smart according to your reqs. Just because the bubble happened doesn't change the fact that real estate has value or that deals are available to those who have funds.

Still I may have gleaned a bit o wisdom somewhere in these 180 posts...


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

thezoo said:


> Still I may have gleaned a bit o wisdom somewhere in these 180 posts...


No you didn't
.


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## cdkyle (Jul 12, 2009)

Besides....If everyone did kick a** quality work for a reasonable price.....Holmes on Homes would be out of work........And we know how everyone on here LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOves HOH. :laughing:


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

How did HOH get brought into this :blink:


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## cdkyle (Jul 12, 2009)

:gun_bandana::2guns::gun_bandana::2guns::laughing:


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Windwash said:


> "I think a fair bit of land bought on housing speculation back in the earlier part of the decade are going to end up going back to working crop/pasture."
> 
> The Minneapolis Star/Tribune had an article this summer about farmers buying back land for $5-7,000/acre that they had originally sold to developers for $100,000+/acre. Heres a link http://www.startribune.com/business/161867185.html


Thanks for the link. Good article in that it gives actual numbers for what the land is being re-purchased at.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

BamBamm asked an excellent question back at the beginning of this fiasco.

this could have been an excellent thread.

I could be wrong- but I am pretty sure Shell Builder is a poster I remember from a few previous forums(FHB and "Breaktime")

If he is the same guy- I remember him as being, bright,articulate,professional and willing to share what he knows. 

There were a few other posters in this thread with relevant experience that could have been helpful as well.

I am really sorry that somebody chose to pizz all over those folks.

for the individual who spent so much of this thread proclaiming his own honesty while insisting that every one who dis-agrees with his personal views is a hack and lacking in integrity------ you do realize that despite all your self proclaimed honesty- you effectively stole an opportunity for the rest of us to learn from 
Shell Builder?

I have some info that I would like to share on a related topic that I will put in my next post,
Best wishes all,
Stephen


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Not directly flipping as per BamBamms original post-- but I thought some folks might be interested in hearing about the most successfull real estate investor I have personally met.

I said investor- but they were actually a father/ son team.
the Father got his start back in the 50's/60's.

At that time a lot of highways/expressways were being built( through the center of my town) and the father owned a housemoving business.

So- the father made some money moving houses. tThe son told me that at that same time his father was able to buy houses scheduled for demolition for $1. At one point( the son told me)- the father was buying houses for $1 in Akron, Ohio and moving them south towards Dover ,Ohio and storing them in a farmers field untill the father could purchase lots to put the houses on.

At the time I knew this pair- between the 2 of them they owned just under 300 units spread out in a curved arc. from Akron south/southwest towards Wooster( this is a curve maybe 30-40 miles long.
the time frame I knew this pair was during the late '80's/early 90's and the days of buying a house for $1 were over- but this pair were still buying several houses every year( they didn't move them,though!)

what they were doing was- they would buy a structurally sound fixer upper in a fairly solid blue collar working class neighborhood- not great neighborhoods but the sort of area where the husband works as a mechanic at Midas Muffler and the wife works as a cashier at a grocery store .

they rented the houses out section 8.

when they bought a house--- they immediately tore off the old roof and installed a new roof-- they installed a new furnace and a new water heater. they would sort out any electrical problems and plumbing problems( a lot of houses in those areas at that time needed up graded from 60 amp fuse service to 100 amp breaker boxes-now-a-days we would probably use 200 amp service.

they put brand new low end kitchens and bathrooms in the house, carpeted the whole house and painted it from top to bottom. most of these houses were basic 2 story ,3 bedroomns,one bathroom- but they really looked for houses with a walk in attic that could be used as a bedroom.

I remember very clearly standing in the front yard of one of these houses while the son explained to me EXACTLY what they did and why they did it.- 

at that time in that area similar,neighboring houses rented in the open market for maybe $460- but this father son team was getting maybe $580/month from section 8.

As the son explained to me---------a tenant would move in-typically a single mom with 2-3 kids. these houses were by FAR the nicest houses the woman had ever been in- she had NEVER lived in a house with a new kitchen,a new bath,new carpeting and freshly painted top to bottom. As the son explained- they had a LOT of tenants that stayed 12 years or more-basically the tenants NEVER wanted to leave because they never had it this good--and as the son explained to me it was all gauranteed money- the tenant paid maybe $75/month and section 8 paid the rest.

The son also explained that because they did so much initial work they never had real problems from section 8

section 8 would inspect the properties every year and WOULD insist every year on some minor things- fix this gutter,fix the light over the back door etc.--- the father son team didn't care because they budgeted about $200/year per house for this type of nuicance and it was worth it to them for the higher than market rent and the low turnover.
remember- this pair owned almost 300 of these units- they were all paid off and all throwing out cash. they bought houses for cash, fixed them up with cash, the father and son got all their money back in 8-10 years and basically it was a full time job deploying the cash 300 houses generated.

i will also tell you------- these houses were fixed up and maintained better than the owner occupied houses in the neighborhoods.

For the life of me, I can not remember these guys names- but I do remember that the father referred his niece to me.- the nieces name I DO remember because she was such an incredible slum lord.- It took me a few projects to realize- but basically she did the opposite of what her uncle and cousin did- bought the cheapest house,did the least amount of work concievably possible and treated the tenants like absolute garbage. If you met her personally-you would probably like her.- I remember she was a strong member of a fundementalist church and she and her husband had a special needs child-they went into the landlord business so that Joan could generate income without really working outside of the home-which is laudable and I am sure her fellow parishoners loved her---but then she kept business and church seperate and those parishoners never saw how really horribly she treated the tenants.

all in all I don't have a lot of sympathy for tenants---- but there really ARE limmits to civilized behavior and Joan just didn't measure up.

It's almost 20 years since i worked for any of these folks. Eventually I stopped doing anything for Joan because she was a slum lord- and I eventually priced myself out of what the father son team would pay for.

Best wishes all,
stephen


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Stephen H said:


> BamBamm asked an excellent question back at the beginning of this fiasco.
> 
> this could have been an excellent thread.
> 
> ...


Stephen,
Thanks for the kind words. I would be glad to help anyone here who is flipping houses. I do well at this but its mainly because of an extensive background in frame, foundation and trim that I am able to and having good personnel helps a lot. BCC is not a businessman, he is probably a carpenter stuck in a rut working for homeowners and cant see how to progress in this business. Probably too slow to make it with custom builders and probably not capitalized enough to do anymore than what he is doing.
The "everyones a hack" attitude is a smokescreen to his own failures not to progress further. He surely doesnt know the feeling of going to the bank to borrow the money to work a business plan that also sustains the trades and suppliers. I am in my twilight years of building and remodeling and am glad I have prepared well for a retirement. For the younger remodelers/tradesmen, I think any mentoring or advice that can be given to the smarter , open minded guys who are cutting it in this economy would be more beneficial to them than discussions that end up being at BCCs level. We're very lucky to live in the USA and have the entrepreneurial opportunities available to us. It's all about taking advantage of our good fortune to live here. Remembering 9/11 and the fact that OBL cant.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Shellbuilder said:


> Stephen,
> Thanks for the kind words. I would be glad to help anyone here who is flipping houses. I do well at this but its mainly because of an extensive background in frame, foundation and trim that I am able to and having good personnel helps a lot. BCC is not a businessman, he is probably a carpenter stuck in a rut working for homeowners and cant see how to progress in this business. Probably too slow to make it with custom builders and probably not capitalized enough to do anymore than what he is doing.
> The "everyones a hack" attitude is a smokescreen to his own failures not to progress further. He surely doesnt know the feeling of going to the bank to borrow the money to work a business plan that also sustains the trades and suppliers. I am in my twilight years of building and remodeling and am glad I have prepared well for a retirement. For the younger remodelers/tradesmen, I think any mentoring or advice that can be given to the smarter , open minded guys who are cutting it in this economy would be more beneficial to them than discussions that end up being at BCCs level. We're very lucky to live in the USA and have the entrepreneurial opportunities available to us. It's all about taking advantage of our good fortune to live here. Remembering 9/11 and the fact that OBL cant.


Ditto everything Shell said. I'm at the same stage in life & doing much the same.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Oh now your a realtor, framer, finish carpenter, foundation expert and a business man. Your adding to it with each post! Like I said I don't do flips because there's not enough money in it. I can make more doing a high end kitchen or bathroom than what I would make flipping a house in this market to the quality I would be happy with. Yeah I could go out and slap some siding on a place and add some windows but that's not how my business works. You say I'm
Jealous of the company's that do this kind of work yet why would I be jealous? As I said you sound just like every other flipper in this area. Give it the big talk yet their products are crap to say the least.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Ditto everything Shell said. I'm at the same stage in life & doing much the same.


Lol you need to get your tongue out his ass.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Incredible amount of anger there...say the wind's pickin' up again.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

What about the Demorats and Ratpbulicans?










Carry on.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Incredible amount of anger there...say the wind's pickin' up again.


No anger on my end. I ain't swore once yet so I'm pretty chilled.

You will know when I'm angry as the thread normally gets shut down.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Windwash said:


> "I think a fair bit of land bought on housing speculation back in the earlier part of the decade are going to end up going back to working crop/pasture."


And this has nothing to do with contractors swinging hammers. 
That old saying, "real estate can't be moved" is valid, but a more precise way of looking at it is, "everything moves BUT real estate".


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

thezoo said:


> wow this whole thread "there are bad people in this world who only care about $$$", like duh? Wonder what auto mechanics say about other auto hack mechanics? Come on really? Only house flippers have unethical participants?


You have a valid point.....however, not all business models create the same--ish outcome.

If I were to buy a house, I'd do a search on the property owner and those before it, a history of it. Why? Because someone that has owned it for the last 5 plus years that did any remod work to it, well, it probably was for them as they were going to live in it (depending upon how old the work is). If the seller is an LLC/partnership/individual that only has had it for 6 months or so, well then, that's a different story.

When an entity purchases something to fix it up and resell it, it's different. Sort of like the maintenance schedule on an older truck sold by a single owner truck vs one from a used car lot.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

CHRenewal said:


> I went through all the emotions you are going through on my first one. I actually made a lot of mistakes and lost on it because I didn't move it fast enough so I rented it for 2 years before selling and just about broke even. What hurt me was not getting it cheap enough, putting too much in to upgrades and taking too long to start renting it. I'm a bit smarter now.


You know, that is just so HONEST. Our first one - dumb luck - second one, exactly what you did. Since then, better, better, better.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

BamBamm is actually in a pretty good position to do this- he is in the roofing business.

I have been primarily in the roofing business since the early/mid 80's and in that time I have had many,Many,MANY opportunities to pick up deals.

what happens is- you get a request for a roof estimate. you meet with somebody and you learn that actually the person you are meeting with is the executor of an estate. you are in Ohio- the executor lives in california but has to handle dear old Mom's,or Grandma's or Old uncle joes estate. 

the executor really wants to just sell this dump and go back to california- they don't want to be lining up roofers and painters and furnace guys and electricians to get the place fixed up and THEN sell it.

when we were involved in asphalt shingle roofs I would guess we encountered this situation 3-4 times a year. now with slate and tile we don't run into it as much.

in the interest of full disclosure I will mention that never in all those years did I pursue those opportunities. I recognized them as opportunities at the time- but I was busy pursuing OTHER opportunities ( at the time I was pouring azz loads of money into my kids private school educations,LOL and putting similar amounts into index funds for my retirement)-

at this stage in life my retirement is pretty well set- my kids are established OK-and at age 50 it's really too early to fully retire------ so I would like to pursue real estate opportunities to help my sons get BETTER established-and it's never to early to start thinking about giving the grand kids(as yet un-concieved) a leg up in life.

stephen


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

> I have had many,Many,MANY opportunities to pick up deals.


LOL!

When you have the opportunities, you don't have the time. Get the time, don't have the money. Get the money, the opportunities dry up...

Ain't it da troot?

Some folks I know are just geniuses/gifted/always in the right place, etc.

Not me.

I thought we were all done for the year on buying. But things change. So now I'm doing the legwork on-line for possible buys - nothing falling into my lap from the sky, just looking at numbers. demographics, margins.

It isn't a get-rich scheme for us: It is the same old, same old remodeling, only I'm the contractor AND the client, and I don't have to kow-tow to a home owner, get beat up on low bids, and suffer from non-payments & no-show subs.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

What are the best times of the year to buy and sell? Does it depend on the area or the time of the year? Dec. and Jan. seem to be slow because of the holidays. When I fixed them up and sold them , I always sat on them for a year before I got a offer. Always. If I try this again, I would like to unload it in 6 monthes or so.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Gary H said:


> What are the best times of the year to buy and sell? Does it depend on the area or the time of the year?


Depends on market segment.

1st time buyers are usually 1 baby & 1 school age, so they want to be settled by school start.(so, you can figure your turn-around time, and work back from that date)

Mid-range move-ups & transfers, time of year isn't so critical, Most are staying in district, or moving to a better district, or in the case of transfers - they move when the company says so, and take what is super-clean and move-in sharp.

And as you said, the holidays pretty much close the doors - not even tire-kickers.

Frankly, I know there are people who cater to the mid & upper market and some very nice ones too, but the 1st time buyers is where we are at. The economy in Mid and SE Michigan is too fragile: one sneeze, and the higher end stuff would just sit(again).

Meanwhile, we can still rent anything we have ever bought and make a good margin. If we didn't move something in 90, we'd put a renter in it for a year.


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## Wise Customs (Sep 12, 2012)

There are so many variables that it will make your head spin. I have never had a simple flip. There was always some train wreck that awaited or if it was a smooth closing and reno then the house would fail to sale soon or anywhere near the projected asking price. If you have a nice amount of capital and spare time then I would certainly say give it a shot but the devil is in the details and you have to be meticulous or have a business partner that is.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Well, I'm going to look at a few 25-30k houses. Think I'm going to take the plunge to give myself something to do over winter.

If it works out, we will see how it goes.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ2HcRl4wSk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Good winter project.:thumbsup: I am still looking around for a good one, but it seems they are too high priced for what they need done. I missed a good one for $5 grand last week, on a quiet dead end street. Needs lots of help, and I thought I had it in the bag, but at the last minuate they changed thier minds and decided to rent it out.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Well, I'm going to look at a few 25-30k houses. Think I'm going to take the plunge to give myself something to do over winter.
> 
> If it works out, we will see how it goes.


Just came back from my once-a-month haircut. My barber (another old fart like me) picked one up 1/2 mile down the road from our last buy.

25K, treat the well, paint & mow & now renting for $1200K/mo (total of 2K in reno work!). I missed that one - "assumed" it was off-market, because after sitting for 2 years, sign was gone. So, it turns out, sign got knocked down, MLS never put it back on active listing after failed bid - and seller took the first cash offer after months of no activity.

It was probably built in 1998-2000. Alfalfa fields to either side, and a golf course & public lake to the north.

Doing these are no different, and really are just another aspect of remodeling. Know the market, the client, the TRUE costs, and develop reliable relationships with the other professionals you will be interacting with.

For me and the people I also know in the business, these are our 401K, our stash of US Bonds reaching maturity, and our securities.

The difference is, our monies go right to sub-contractors, suppliers in OUR area and help rejuvenate the economy AND make money(hopefully, someday).

The banks raped the system (and we let them do that), this is just part of the cure - restoring American self-respect, one home at a time.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Gary H said:


> Good winter project.:thumbsup: I am still looking around for a good one, but it seems they are too high priced for what they need done. I missed a good one for $5 grand last week, on a quiet dead end street. Needs lots of help, and I thought I had it in the bag, but at the last minuate they changed thier minds and decided to rent it out.


Hey Gary, if you want, I can get the address of the one I just referred to in the other post. As deeply experienced remodelers, we both probably tend to think of buying one really busted up on the cheap and doing a boatload to it. But my barber - he don't think that way. He looks at buying the best house for the least amount of work - trading larger margins for a quicker time to market and newer, more popular styles (for resale).

He is one smart cookie.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

My plan is to get one from 25-30. Put 15-20 into it and sell for around 100-115. Gotta start somewhere and I'd be happy with that for the first one.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I just put an offer on one that's foreclosed. My sister is a realtor so I have great access to finding them often times before being listed.

It's tough though. Many of the banks are turning down investors. They ask to fill out on the offer if it's to be owner occupied. They are rejecting many investors and holding out.

I just looked at one last week that's 6 years old and before the owner left the house they kicked the drywall in on every single room and busted windows. It was a in a neighborhood of $500k and up houses.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I wouldn't sell the house though, I'd rent it out. Rents are going through the roof and if inflation takes hold values will increase.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Wth you been? :laughing:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> I wouldn't sell the house though, I'd rent it out. Rents are going through the roof and if inflation takes hold values will increase.


That's another thing I was thinking of as possibility.

Want to be the go to plumber if we have plumbing issues?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

BamBamm5144 said:


> That's another thing I was thinking of as possibility.
> 
> Want to be the go to plumber if we have plumbing issues?


Sure, I'll even float it until it's done.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

J F said:


> Wth you been? :laughing:


Slammed to the wall busy. I see you called the other day, sorry I couldn't take it. Call me this evening if you have a chance, wanna run a marketing idea past you. It's brilliant..... lol


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Will do, does it include Guiness? :laughing:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

J F said:


> Will do, does it include Guiness? :laughing:


No, but that's a good idea!


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