# First Flip - Second House



## Spectre (Feb 7, 2018)

It matters where the appliances come from. If they bought new to replace, the likelihood there is something systemically wrong with the old is high. Best is to buy from someone affluent who wants to be rid of the appliances in a reno. These deals last very short, they are priced to be out of the way fast.


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

Frank Castle said:


> What's wrong with it?
> If it was really perfect, they would be asking more $$.
> 
> Just my.02¢



I'm just using random numbers.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Stick with total generic....no fancy stuff. Concentrate on kitchen, bathroom, and curb appeal this is what sells a house....the rest just clean up and generic...let the buyer customize the way they want. I've done a dozen at least, Depending on market margins are tighter than you think they are. Always inspect HVAC, roof, and sewer cam before buying


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

Irishslave said:


> Stick with total generic....no fancy stuff. Concentrate on kitchen, bathroom, and curb appeal this is what sells a house....the rest just clean up and generic...let the buyer customize the way they want. I've done a dozen at least, Depending on market margins are tighter than you think they are. Always inspect HVAC, roof, and sewer cam before buying


Thank you very much. I was pricing everything out and I'm hoping to go no higher than 30k. I need to figure out what to do for curb appeal though. I'm thinking a front door may be needed.


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

Howdy all,
So I got the house on April 30th and have been getting done what I can. I decided to do a lot more rip out then originally intended as I found some mold issues, and wanted to open it up more

I have been getting the house fumigated but still having issues with the cockroaches. I don't think the company spraying is doing a proper job as I caught him not even entering the house the one time he came. (Orkin)

I also ran into some serious wiring issue, copper to aluminum junctioned in the walls without boxes or proper marettes so there was loss of power to some outlets and little fires in the wall so I basically had to trace every feed and redo it. I pig tailed all outlets and switches. 

So far I have done everything myself except taping so far, so work is going a little slower as I have to finish my regular 7:30-5 job before I can get there.


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## madmax718 (Dec 7, 2012)

You may not be a pro, but your certainly getting there.

You do not need appliances to sell a place. In fact, its probably better to sell *without* appliances so that the buyer can customize the appliances they want- and they would end up with a with a full warranty.

As far as flooring goes, theres different grade of flooring, even when you consider hard wood. If your doing traditional oak, theres a few grades- the lower the grade the more "knots" it has. 

If your selling as a "rental" then it doesnt matter as much. But if your selling for a homeowner to move in, the demands are generally higher, but not at the tune of 7k higher. Check your local flooring yard for old stock- you can sometimes find some interesting stuff for cheap.


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

madmax718 said:


> You may not be a pro, but your certainly getting there.
> 
> You do not need appliances to sell a place. In fact, its probably better to sell *without* appliances so that the buyer can customize the appliances they want- and they would end up with a with a full warranty.
> 
> ...


Appreciate it! 

I am really tired of doing the work myself, I told myself I'd never do it again after my first one (that im renting out) but with this being my first attempt to "flip" I don't want to end up burying myself in paying for labour until I get a feel for the market and how much profit I'll make.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Frenchy93 said:


> Appreciate it!
> 
> *I am really tired of doing the work myself,* I told myself I'd never do it again after my first one (that im renting out) but with this being my first attempt to "flip" I don't want to end up burying myself in paying for labour until I get a feel for the market and how much profit I'll make.


One of the hardest lessons to learn in flipping... play to your strengths and strengths in numbers... if you're intent on doing the physical part of the work, do the work you're best at and hire the rest out... while you're doing what you're best at, your compounding time/progress by having other work in tandem...

By the time you figure in the extra carrying costs as the months drag on and the lost time (you're in prime time for home selling right now) and the wear and tear on your body working your regular gig, you're not making "profit" per se but just covering your hourly wage... the two are not the same...

Being in the flipping business is about maximizing and leveraging the amount of time you have in a year... 

For example, would you want to do all the work yourself, on top of your regular gig like you're doing now and if you're lucky, sell one house a year, and make let's say $100K gross profit (before paying yourself for all the hours your put in to get to your NET profit) or instead, MANAGE 4-5 house flips with the SAME OR LESS time than you spending now on top of your regular gig, and make $50K per house which thus translates not only in more revenue, but how much you end up making per hour for your time PLUS NET profit?


Doing it all yourself is really confusing activity with accomplishment IMO...

Also, there's the added benefit that you're also contributing more to the local economy and guys like us... win/win... :thumbsup:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Everybody has to start somewhere. Buying 5 at a time and running crews while working full time is generally out of reach for most 8-5 People without plenty of ecoerience.

In the US, you can keep moving up tax deferred using t
1031 exchanges, keeping your labor untaxed until much later, so break even on when to switch from self performing to using a contractor happens at a lower personal rate than with no tax advantage.

I had this pegged at a $64k budget if it were all contracted out. Pocketing $34k minus carrying costs tax advantaged in your spare time isn't a bad deal.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Around here, there aren't that many good flip candidates that come up.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> Everybody has to start somewhere. Buying 5 at a time and running crews while working full time is generally out of reach for most 8-5 People without plenty of ecoerience.
> 
> In the US, you can keep moving up tax deferred using t
> 1031 exchanges, keeping your labor untaxed until much later, so break even on when to switch from self performing to using a contractor happens at a lower personal rate than with no tax advantage.
> ...


That all depends on how much time you spent on building it yourself and the subsequent carrying costs, never mind delays when it interferes with your regular gig...

Agreed everyone needs to start somewhere... if you're not doing it currently, understanding and subsequent planning to get to the next level and recognizing the benefits of doing so usually helps that along... :thumbsup:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> Around here, there aren't that many good flip candidates that come up.


Would certainly make it harder to find them when you have a regular gig and working on a flip by yourself...


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

hdavis said:


> Everybody has to start somewhere. Buying 5 at a time and running crews while working full time is generally out of reach for most 8-5 People without plenty of ecoerience.
> 
> In the US, you can keep moving up tax deferred using t
> 1031 exchanges, keeping your labor untaxed until much later, so break even on when to switch from self performing to using a contractor happens at a lower personal rate than with no tax advantage.
> ...


You're saying rough estimate to have someone do my whole house would me 64k? I would honestly be happy with that, but as of right now I can use every penny.


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

KAP said:


> One of the hardest lessons to learn in flipping... play to your strengths and strengths in numbers... if you're intent on doing the physical part of the work, do the work you're best at and hire the rest out... while you're doing what you're best at, your compounding time/progress by having other work in tandem...
> 
> By the time you figure in the extra carrying costs as the months drag on and the lost time (you're in prime time for home selling right now) and the wear and tear on your body working your regular gig, you're not making "profit" per se but just covering your hourly wage... the two are not the same...
> 
> ...


I'm subbing out the following:
-Taping
-Interior Doors/Casing
-MAYBE trim and Base
-Kitchen install
-Plumbing (one of my employees is doing it if you would like to count that)
-I also forgot to mention that I did not install the exterior doors myself. 
-Windows are brand new almost (someone has wrecked all the cranks) but I am replacing them anyways because I can get it done for free through our GreenOntario incentive.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Frenchy93 said:


> I'm subbing out the following:
> -Taping
> -Interior Doors/Casing
> -MAYBE trim and Base
> ...


I was going based on what you were posting...



Frenchy93 said:


> *So far I have done everything myself except taping so far*, so *work is going a little slower* as I have to finish my regular 7:30-5 job before I can get there.





Frenchy93 said:


> Appreciate it!
> 
> *I am really tired of doing the work myself, *I told myself I'd never do it again after my first one (that im renting out) but with this being my first attempt to "flip" I don't want to end up burying myself in paying for labour until I get a feel for the market and how much profit I'll make.



Looking forward to the end result... :thumbsup:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Frenchy93 said:


> You're saying rough estimate to have someone do my whole house would me 64k? I would honestly be happy with that, but as of right now I can use every penny.


That was my rough budget. You can always spend way more.:laughing:


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Frenchy93 said:


> What's everyone's take on used appliances for resale.
> 
> I'm talking buying say a perfect condition $600 dollar fridge with a new price of $1700.
> 
> Note: I'm not really in a rush on this, so I have time to be resourceful.


Frenchy..... I like KAPs point a lot.... kitchens/baths/street appeal sell.

That's a tough call considering price and if you know it's history makes sense.

In general, I always sell off existing appliances on Craigs List and put in a matching appliance set from a BB..... if you have time, buy it at black Friday.... take delivery when you want.

I leave the stuff with interior packing on it, so people see brand new shiny appliances.

And free delivery.... I think it's very value enhancing.

Good going


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

Hey guys,
I haven't really been updating with pictures because it's tough to see progress without paint! 

As of this moment:
-Taper/Mudder has finished his work ($2500 for the whole house)
-To light a fire under my arse I purchased the kitchen which will arrive in 2 weeks. 
-Drill out pot lights
-All walls and ceilings done in a thick coat of killz original to mask any of the rotten smells
-Last night I finished painting the ceiling (2 coats sprayed and backrolled)
-By the end of the weekend I want painting complete.
-Bathtub and shower pan are in.
-Backyard is complete minus the fence that needs to be cleaned up. 

Still to do:
-Screw down the existing plywood floor to stop squeeks (I have about half left) 
-Flooring
-Tile floors in bathrooms and showers
-Install toilets/vanities/sinks
-Get base/doors/trim guy in to do his piece
-Little odds and ends like cleaning up around the doors, etc. 
-Clean up the exterior


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

Hi all,
I need some opinions. I really dislike transition in flooring (like hardwood transitioning to tile) I wanted to do the upstairs bathroom, bedrooms and landing all in the same hardwood. 

What are your thoughts on hardwood in a bathroom? I was thinking of hardwood and then some sort of sealer over top for protection. 

I am at the flooring stage now and completed painting this past weekend finally. Pics to come.


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

Well, 
This project is coming to a close, here's the final numbers:

$445k for the house
$42k in material and subs
Subs: trim, exterior door install, a little bit of exterior sheetmetal work
$25k in real estate fees on the sale

List price will be $605k, will sell guaranteed or $599k.

I haven't added up how much all my time was worth on this yet and really don't want too hahaha

These pictures don't show it complete, still some little odds and ends that will be done this week like redoing the stairs, crown, level the fridge..


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Looking good!

I nust saw your previous post, what did you decide for bath flooring?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Looking great... :thumbsup:


So what did you end up doing with the washer/dryer and downstairs?


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

hdavis said:


> Looking good!
> 
> I nust saw your previous post, what did you decide for bath flooring?


I ended up doing tile, I laid both bathrooms in about 6 hours with grout. it looks fantastic I'm not happy with my vanities at all but they cost me next to nothing at an auction. 



KAP said:


> Looking great... :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> So what did you end up doing with the washer/dryer and downstairs?


I roughed in for a washer in the upstair bedroom walk in closet and did a rough in for a gas washer/dryer in the basement to save room in the panel. I'll have some more pics shortly. 

I'm not supplying a washer and dryer, I want to spend that money on an enclosed trailer to store all my work stuff.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Frenchy93 said:


> I roughed in for a washer in the upstair bedroom walk in closet and did a rough in for a gas washer/dryer in the basement to save room in the panel. I'll have some more pics shortly.
> 
> I'm not supplying a washer and dryer, I want to spend that money on an enclosed trailer to store all my work stuff.


So is the downstairs a basement or did you finish it with rooms?

Interesting choice to rough-in a washer upstairs but no mention of a dryer...

Look forward to the pics... :thumbsup:

Sounds like it will be a winner... congrats... :clap:


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

KAP said:


> So is the downstairs a basement or did you finish it with rooms?
> 
> Interesting choice to rough-in a washer upstairs but no mention of a dryer...
> 
> ...


The house is a back split, so no space for bedrooms in the "basement." 

However, the way I have designed it, the house can be turned into two, two bedroom, 1 bath apartments simply by adding a door. I put a small kitchen in the basement, so it is ready to go if the buyer wants to live in half and rent the other half out to help with the mortgage.

Sorry, I should have been more clear, I'm roughed in for washer dryer upstairs and washer dryer downstairs.


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

I tried to purchase another house yesterday and got beat by a way overpriced offer. Starting to get worried I won't be able to keep doing this. 

I also have no intentions on doing all the work myself again, its too hard on me and my family.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Frenchy93 said:


> I tried to purchase another house yesterday and got beat by a way overpriced offer. *Starting to get worried I won't be able to keep doing this*.


Start going to local REI clubs... sources are there including bird-dogs, wholesalers, etc. who will do the work FOR you and find what you are looking for...

In addition, think of people who come across properties in distress, off-market deals like probate, or homes that have been sitting (talk to neighbors) or home that are visited by first responders (show up with an envelope with fifty $20 bills in it after one finds one for you as a thank you for bird-digging it and word gets out)...

Then you have REO (Real Estate Owned) and foreclosure properties (properties owned by the bank who needs to get them off the books as it effects their credit rating and ability to loan and can sell for as low as what's owed)...

And then you have Tax Deed sales (house sells in a bid for what is owed on the real estate taxes, and the mortgage is wiped out) - you can sell the house outright or sell it back to the HO and collect on it for however long the mortgage is... which makes it a long-term rental with someone else paying the taxes/insurance on the property and responsible for repairs, etc... 

The VA & HUD and Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, also sell properties (again, for what is owed and can still be negotiated)...

Don't know how you get your leads, but going deeper makes it less likely you'll have to rely on driving around, Craigslist or MLS...



Frenchy93 said:


> *I also have no intentions on doing all the work myself again, its too hard on me and my family*.


:thumbsup:

Keep your day job, spread the wealth... you'll generate more industry contacts, be able to manage and sell more properties in a year than you would the way you just did it, and still keep your day job, as it were...

Good luck... 8^)


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

ddd


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)




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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

If you do earthworks, that makes you a professional.:thumbsup:


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

And there she is:

https://www.realtor.ca/Residential/...et-Ontario-L3Y3B2-Huron-Heights-Leslie-Valley


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Frenchy93 said:


> And there she is:
> 
> https://www.realtor.ca/Residential/...et-Ontario-L3Y3B2-Huron-Heights-Leslie-Valley


Very nice... :thumbsup:

Have you considered staging it? Perceived value generally increases as it's sometime hard to visualize what an open space can look like and can sometimes result in a bidding war...

People want the magazine and/or TV/intenet images they've been seeing...


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

KAP said:


> Very nice... :thumbsup:
> 
> Have you considered staging it? Perceived value generally increases as it's sometime hard to visualize what an open space can look like and can sometimes result in a bidding war...
> 
> People want the magazine and/or TV/intenet images they've been seeing...



Well,
I was seriously considering the staging thing after reading this. But I sold the house in 3 days for 6k over asking! Received the deposit today.
I'm on to the next project now.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Frenchy93 said:


> Well,
> I was seriously considering the staging thing after reading this. But I sold the house in 3 days for 6k over asking! Received the deposit today.
> I'm on to the next project now.


 Congrats!... :thumbup:



Enjoyed this thread watching your progress, overcoming obstacles, learning, and profiting by selling over ask... :clap:


Did you find another flip or just regular work project?


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

KAP said:


> Congrats!... :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kap,
Have a look at the thread I started yesterday.

http://www.contractortalk.com/f18/century-home-reno-411407/


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

ddd


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## insighter242 (May 22, 2018)

Frenchy93 said:


> Ended up buying this one:
> 
> Have a look at this link for all the pictures.
> 
> ...


Congrats...any leanings or things that you would do little differently basing on those observations ..

House looks pretty good


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

jjjj


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

ffff


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Sometimes it pays to deal with cheap others won't.:laughing:


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## insighter242 (May 22, 2018)

Frenchy93 said:


> I also ended up purchasing another house which is two doors down. It had a sewer backup in an unfinished basement and I got it for a steal.
> 
> https://ibb.co/album/fJ2qwF


 Got it , what was the remediation plan and I am guessing its not expensive


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

hdavis said:


> Sometimes it pays to deal with *crap *others won't.:laughing:


Fixed autocorrect changed the post...


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## T.O.Mark (Mar 20, 2019)

looks good on picture hope you sell big $$$$


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## smpl (Mar 18, 2019)

Frenchy93 said:


> Flooring is what is scaring me. I definitely at least need hardwood in the main floor and that tripled my flooring budget.
> 
> Kitchens - I just replicated that kitchen in the pictures above on Ikea and it is $2800 but with an Oak countertop and a couple more cabinets . Oak countertop, a big no or a yes? I was thinking it may be acceptable if you can almost match it with an oak looking flooring? Id have to add appliances on top of this of course.
> 
> I want to put the laundry room where there fridge is in the pics above, make a small closed off room with a stackable.


Hey Frenchy, Not sure what area of Ontario you are in. However with so many of these flip houses on the market you have to make yours stand out. Everyone is doing open concept, laminate floors, white kitchens with grey paint.

Ask your realator what sells. We just finished a house in Brampton, ONT and did a legal basement for the home owner as they thought that would be a key selling feature. They said "everyone that has come through, liked the place. But don't like the price".....

For hardwood/kitchen check out http://bryansfarm.com/auctions.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0OPWpZGT4QIVQh6tBh1nZQ4uEAAYASABEgIfbvD_BwE

you may be able to save some money there.


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

smpl said:


> Hey Frenchy, Not sure what area of Ontario you are in. However with so many of these flip houses on the market you have to make yours stand out. Everyone is doing open concept, laminate floors, white kitchens with grey paint.
> 
> Ask your realator what sells. We just finished a house in Brampton, ONT and did a legal basement for the home owner as they thought that would be a key selling feature. They said "everyone that has come through, liked the place. But don't like the price".....
> 
> ...


SMPL, 
I actually go to a similar auction. What I find is that more often then not, there is a better deal to be found or there is a reason the stuff is at auction. For the convenience and time I use Lowes. 15% off for contractors. 



insighter242 said:


> Got it , what was the remediation plan and I am guessing its not expensive


The remidiation plan was to rip the whole basement out and start fresh  Walls were stipple. 

This house will be the biggest money maker.


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

Frenchy93 said:


> Hey all, so I kind of stopped posting as I wasn't getting many responses so I didn't think anyone really cared haha.
> 
> This house was completed just before Christmas and going on the market on Friday. It actually turned out really well and the stairs turned out great.
> 
> I had a bit of a snag at the end, the guy I normally get to make my custom vanities and islands took off on me and had to scramble to find someone. Ended up costing me a lot more.


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

ccccccc


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Frenchy93 said:


> An update on this house. It is actually finished as well as of last night. *This house will be the biggest money maker, and the least amount of labor I have put into these houses personally. *
> 
> This will be listed on Monday.
> 
> I'll update with more pictures shortly. Follow the link for what I have now. https://ibb.co/album/fJ2qwF


BINGO!... :clap:

Congrats!... :thumbup:


Are you self-financing ?


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## T.O.Mark (Mar 20, 2019)

how are you able to flip that many homes in these short amount of time?? i mean doesnt the tax man know your running this a business and not as an home owner..


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

just caught up on your thread-looking good


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

xxx


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

As you can see we keep the exterior work to a minimum. On this house I simply spray painted the mail box, cleaned up the interlock and replaced the front door and exterior light.


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## smpl (Mar 18, 2019)

Where do you find these?


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

Just picked up another one today, very little profit in this but I can't find anything right now and need anything right now to just keep things going..


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## Burtle (Mar 5, 2019)

*A*



Frenchy93 said:


> Just picked up another one today, very little profit in this but I can't find anything right now and need anything right now to just keep things going..


How’s house flipping coming along ?


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

Burtle said:


> Frenchy93 said:
> 
> 
> > Just picked up another one today, very little profit in this but I can't find anything right now and need anything right now to just keep things going..
> ...


Actually very good,
I got out of the flipping and started new construction. I purchased 3 houses in a row and I have knocked them down and rebuilt, I’ll post some pictures of the first one when I’m back from vacation.


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## Burtle (Mar 5, 2019)

Frenchy93 said:


> Actually very good,
> I got out of the flipping and started new construction. I purchased 3 houses in a row and I have knocked them down and rebuilt, I’ll post some pictures of the first one when I’m back from vacation.





That’s awesome!!

I’m looking forward to seeing the pictures. 


It won’t let me message you. 

Do you have a scope of work template you’d be willing to share by chance?

I’m looking to buy a house and I’m going to use the brrrr method. I’ll be using a hard money lender so it’ll be expensive, but I’m hoping when i refi I can get most of my cash back even after paying the hard money lender back


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

Frenchy93 said:


> Just picked up another one today, very little profit in this but I can't find anything right now and need anything right now to just keep things going..


Update on the house that this post was about. I just finished this in November and it just sold a couple weeks ago. I decided to build new instead of renovate.


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## T.O.Mark (Mar 20, 2019)

Frenchy93 said:


> Update on the house that this post was about. I just finished this in November and it just sold a couple weeks ago. I decided to build new instead of renovate.


wow moving up the ladder fast:clap:


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## Frenchy93 (Mar 4, 2016)

Next project, I have two of these, but holding off on one until I see where the market goes.

Demo of this place starts Wednesday, I am re-using part of the foundation and the basement bathroom so I had to strip some drywall and insulation out before it gets wet!

If you look to the far right of the picture you can see the house I just finished.









*


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