# Load bearing beam and footers



## greendot (Apr 13, 2010)

Hi all, this is my first post here. I just want to say that there is so much info here and that it is great- information is power.

I own a three story house with crawling space. The house is 100yrs old and needs help because some of the main supporting beams are in bad shape and cracking under the pressure. I would like to add a another PERMANENT supporting beam next to that troubled main beam almost sistering it.

I was thinking of doing this:

1. Because I have a high water table in my area and a sump pump which goes on every hour, I do not want to cut through the cement floor so I will need to build my footers on top of the slab. I will make a 20x20x20 footer for the screw jacks. 

2. The supporting beam- I am thinking about either going for a three 2x8's glued and bolted together as supporting beams (span will be 9 feet) or, getting a steal I beam. What do you guys think? 

3. I will use 6x6 ellis screw jacks from ellisok.com (unless you think there are better ones?) with 6x6 purlin splicers on top. which will be set 3 feet from each beam end- creating three 3ft spans under the beams.


I will be more than happy for advice from you guys. 

Thanks

Uri


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

My advice is to get someone to look at it, like an engineer. It doesn't sound too critical of a situation and what you are proposing sounds good enough, but I think you would want someone to actually come visit your home and make a much better educated conclusion.


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## erikm (Jun 12, 2010)

greendot said:


> Hi all, this is my first post here. I just want to say that there is so much info here and that it is great- information is power.
> 
> I own a three story house with crawling space. The house is 100yrs old and needs help because some of the main supporting beams are in bad shape and cracking under the pressure. I would like to add a another PERMANENT supporting beam next to that troubled main beam almost sistering it.
> 
> ...


 
cut the concrete/use a steel I-beamarty:


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## rustyjames (Aug 28, 2008)

If it's in a crawl space why not just add some more supports to the existing beam? That could be done by just jacking up sections and stacking CMU's and some wood blocking.


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## greendot (Apr 13, 2010)

Thanks for the advice guys! 
*
framerman- *I will bring someone. 
*erikm-* ok...... but I have a high water level so the sec I will cut through it I will hit water and pouring cement into it will be a hassle. Any reason why an I beam be better?

*rustyjames- *that is what I wanted to do in the first place but that beam is in bad shape as it is so I thought that instead of trying to add support to it I should just build a new supporting beam right next to it... 


BTW- The main reason I want to avoid the steel beam is the fact that in order to buy the right steel beam I will need to bring an engineer for it and they charge a lot for it in my area so I thought that instead I will just do an over kill by myself which can't go wrong... 

Again- any thoughts are welcomed


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

framerman said:


> My advice is to get someone to look at it, like an engineer. It doesn't sound too critical of a situation and what you are proposing sounds good enough, but I think you would want someone to actually come visit your home and make a much better educated conclusion.


Yeah, I do agree with this. It is always a good idea to have someone knowledgeable to have a look-see at the issue you are dealing with. In my mind, I would want to know why the beam has failed, or is failing. Is it lateral shearing, over spanned, termite or rot damage, of damage caused by others, etc?

Just be sure whatever you do, you are able to carry the load to solid footing, which will probably (highly likely) incur having to cut the existing concrete pad and dig out enough material to be able to pour a substantial enough pad (with #4 rebar as reinforcement) to carry any new load. Three stories above (plus any roof load) is quite a bit of dead weight! Not to mention the other design parameters you must consider (i.e., snow, wind, seismic, live loads, etc).

Oh, BTW, if you don't mind, you can have those screw jacks sent to my address, that is once again, if you don't mind!:thumbsup:


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Temp wall both sides, remove old beam, replace with new beam of adequate size.

Does anyone else ever call it a "crawling" space?


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Warren said:


> Temp wall both sides, remove old beam, replace with new beam of adequate size.
> 
> *Does anyone else ever call it a "crawling" space?*


Other HO's do.


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## greendot (Apr 13, 2010)

Jeff g - i bought this house about 6 months ago and I found all sorts of issues from old terminates damage to water damage and so on.. I'm handling all of it one step at a time. 
My Maine problem with pouring a correct footer is the water table. It is so high that if I dig more than 5 inches ill hit water and that will make it very hard for me to pour the concrete. That is why I want to do an over kill. 

Warren- I know that this is the proper way but this house is old, tall and with issues so I rather sister it


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

greendot said:


> ...........
> My Maine problem with pouring a correct footer is the water table. It is so high that if I dig more than 5 inches ill hit water and that will make it very hard for me to pour the concrete. .........


I don't know how they do it 
in Maine, but what you say is 
all the more reason *not* to trust
what is likely a very thin
"rat slab" as a base for footings.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

You cannot place a footer on top of a slab, as stated above it is probably a "rat" slab, not structural and will fail.

Get the water table down, dig a footer of the proper size, (an engineer can tell you what that is). Put in a beam of the proper size, properly supported.

Anything else is just putting crap under crap, which in the long run won't hold up for.....crap.


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

Your crawlspace is only 9' wide?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

greendot said:


> Jeff g - i bought this house about 6 months ago and I found all sorts of issues from old terminates damage to water damage and so on.. I'm handling all of it one step at a time.
> My Maine problem with pouring a correct footer is the water table. It is so high that if I dig more than 5 inches ill hit water and that will make it very hard for me to pour the concrete. That is why I want to do an over kill.
> 
> Warren- I know that this is the proper way but this house is old, tall and with issues so I rather sister it


Old and tall don't matter. Sistering is second best. If you wanna do it right, replace it. Not sure why "tall" matters anyway.


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## greendot (Apr 13, 2010)

But I have water rising so quickly that I won't be able to use anything but hydraulic cement which is not a material that I like using. You guys have much more experience than me so I take your remarks very seriously. If you will tell me how to do so in my circumstances I will do soBut I have water rising so quickly that I won't be able to use anything but hydraulic cement which is not a material that I like using. You guys have much more experience than me so I take your remarks very seriously. If you will tell me how to do so in my circumstanc


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## greendot (Apr 13, 2010)

It is doubled for some reason. Sorry


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## Diamond D. (Nov 12, 2009)

Yeah, it sounds like alot of double talk to me.

Why not just cut pockets in the stonewall, ( you did say 100 yr. old, right ) and forgo the piers altogether, it is only 9 feet. Build your wooden beam with glue and plywood, ( check with local engineer, for propper sizing. ) and be done with it.

D.


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

greendot said:


> But I have water rising so quickly that I won't be able to use anything but hydraulic cement which is not a material that I like using. You guys have much more experience than me so I take your remarks very seriously. If you will tell me how to do so in my circumstances I will do so


First of all, just be aware that no one in this forum can determine what you actually need to do based upon the specific set of issues you are dealing with. Because we are unable to come to any conclusions without seeing the job firsthand. All we could do is give you some pointers, and/or ideas based upon what has worked for us in the past. We cannot make the necessary calculations required to properly size each component of an appropriate solution. However, an engineer will be able to do so after inspecting what you are actually dealing with there. It may very well behoove you to do just that. IMHO, it sure would be the safe/smart thing to do.

There are ways to deal with the high water table, which may be resolved by digging a temporary pit (with sump pump) that is low enough to gather any water that would otherwise seep into the excavated areas for the new footers. Just so you are aware, an engineer would be able to advise on the bearing capacity of the soil underneath your basement floor (after removing concrete in specific areas), hence determine how big, how deep, and where to locate rebar in each footing, etc.

My question/s is what is the problem with the existing footings carrying the load now. If there is nothing (no sign of any subsidence, etc.), then probably your bet bet is to erect temp walls and replace the beam with a properly sized one. You may come out cheaper doing just that. And btw, 3-2x8's sistered together may not be substantial enough for load. There are several factors that go into calculating such (i.e., different species of lumber have vastly different abilities to carry loads due to their density, modulus of elasticity, bending stress, moment of inertia, and the list goes on). The weight and all other load factors above, as well as temporary loads such as seismic, snow, impact, etc, must be figured out in order to safely size a beam, or column, or footing.

Also, are there any signs of subsidence (associated with this beam) throughout the home (i.e., slanting floors, deflected floors, way too much floor bounce when walking across certain areas, excessively crack walls, etc)?

Furthermore, I would be cautious about sistering onto existing beam with another one due to the potential for part (or all) of the existing floor system to not tie in with the new beam and be sufficiently carried. Particularly if the old beam subsequently exhibited full on failure. Bottom line, just be sure it will fully carry all loads that will be required from it.

True enough, you may be just fine with the solution you've proposed (I personally wouldn't put my screw jack 3 feet away from the current support point - in my mind its cantilevering too much load on an already crappy beam). There's just no way for anyone to tell without looking at what you're working with. I hate to keep sounding like a recording, but a competent engineer will surely be able to advise you on everything.


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

Diamond D. said:


> Build your wooden beam with glue and plywood, ( check with local engineer, for propper sizing. ) and be done with it.
> 
> D.


A box beam made from 2x material sandwiched between plywood that's glued and screwed may very well work. But first thing (that is in my pea brain) would be to determine what the load requirements will be.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

I at first gave you the benefit of the doubt. You have your trade listed as builder and your profile is very sparse with the only details being that you are a builder.

Builders know what to do in this situation when they have a situation beyond their limits of knowledge...call someone in. We are not that someone. You need an actual person to come in and look at the situation of your home and tell you what to do.

With the advice given and your reluctance to accept the advice since you want a verifiable answer, I am going to make a pretty good assumption that you are indeed a homeowner with a problem in your home that you need fixing and want free advice. That advice is given here:

http://www.diychatroom.com/

Please take the time and register at this site and pose your question there. I have a good idea that you will receive the same answer...get someone out to your home and have a look at it.


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