# Hard to believe



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

stucco over wood can and does work,but if it fails the resulting damage can be incredible


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

dom-mas said:


> When did I say that? There were some posters who wanted 3 or 4 layers of product before applying the lath. i think that 2 layers of WRB are speced for cultured stone. Whether it's tarpaper or tyvek is not the issue. The original poster showed someone putting cultured stone up over tyvek (who knows maybe the lad has a dozen layers of the stuff) which is code and manufacturer recommended.


:blink:then what the hell are we arguing about?...here have a beer:drink:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I wasn't arguing with anyone. i was just trying to have a discussion.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> I'm in E. ontario a similar climate to Ohio. Not arid but not an area that promotes mould. In fact the only building that I've ever seen that had significant amounts of mould and wood rot (siding and some framing) was a federal heritage building that I was working on that was renovated in the 70's. The contractors put poly on the cold side and no wether barrier. 40 years later the building was in fairly bad shape.


Well, here's what we deal with in Southern New Jersey.

Summers that can rise into the low 100s F, with drought conditions at times and other times abundant rainfall.

Can't rule out the possibility of a hurricane either.

Winters that can dip to near 0 F, with recent Winters dumping 2' of snow at a shot.

Blizzard conditions are not impossible.

Very wet Spring with thunderstorms and occasional high winds.

Fall is typically ushered in by occasional wet weather and wind.

Every climate has different issues to deal with. We get a taste of every climate.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

dom-mas said:


> really? why not? tyvek breathes and so does mortar. Whay can't they breath together? I've torn down tons of work that has the air space almost filled. No rot that I saw. Again, mortar isn't plastic.


when the tyvek bonds to the mortar it is no longer able to stop liquid water from penetrating to the sheathing,typar claims stucco will not bond to it for the reason they offer no stucco wrap


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JBM said:


> No way a mason put that tyvek on. Its not crooked and there are no mickey mouse pieces on the top.


Thats too freakin funny...that should go into the you know you are a mason thread!:laughing:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

E. ontario is very temperate. We do get extreme colds down to -40c/-40F for a few days each winter but it's also very dry at those times. We occasioanlly get chinooks come in from the west which will bring the temps up into the melting zone in 24 hrs. This is by far when the worst of our masonry damage occurs, particularly on the south side which is getting sun. It will then fall back down well below freezing which can do real damage in a short period.

Mould isn't a huge problem. Actually I just rememberd that a house I rented when I was younger developed a mould problem, however it had large cracks in the stucco, a leaking roof and no vapour barrier. no idea if it had tarpaper or no.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> when the tyvek bonds to the mortar it is no longer able to stop liquid water from penetrating to the sheathing,typar claims stucco will not bond to it for the reason they offer no stucco wrap


Intersting, when I was in school i did a product comparison between tyvek and typar. Tyvek beat typar in all ASTM data that I could find. That info didn't come up. Maybe things have changed since then.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

google Typar see who owns the patent


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Interesting, both owned by Dupont?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

typar is polypropylene it's very strong but offers no water resistance unless it's coated which may be the reason mortar will not bond 

tyvek is polyolfin gets its water management abilities from the way they are able to ''weave'' it


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Really, no water resistance? the typar that I researched passed the 1" puddle of water for 1 hour test (barely) and also whatever the water vapour permeability test was (which tyvek also far surpassed)


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

the first you mention is a water column test,it's not a hold an inch of water in a puddle test but a specific height of a column of water

the other you speak about is also known as the ''boat test'' they make a little boat out of the material and sprinkle in a powder that changes color in the presence of moisture,then they float it in water to see how long it takes for the color to change

because of tyveks higher permeability it can not pass the boat test but does great in the water column test which DuPont claims is a more accurate permeability test


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

two words.....

VARIABLE PERMEABILITY












:whistling


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

dom-mas said:


> Really, no water resistance? the typar that I researched passed the 1" puddle of water for 1 hour test (barely) and also whatever the water vapour permeability test was (which tyvek also far surpassed)


typar is the exact same material used in landscape fabric and other geotextiles,it's the coating you see that gives it it's wrb abilities


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

thats enough letters for 4 words:whistling


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

loneframer said:


> two words.....
> 
> VARIABLE PERMEABILITY
> 
> ...


Dont you mean vacillating breathability?:laughing:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Well you seem to know a lot about it but when I did my research the specific test was that the product needed to hold a puddle of water 1" deep for an hour without passing any water. Tyvek lasted something like 2 hrs and typar lasted an hour 5 mins or something. I remember that very specifically because it seemed like such a real life test. One that actually means something to me. The other was just a result saying that tyvek allowed 1gram of water vapour through each mm2 every 5 minutes (or something I don't remember since it wasn't the same real life type result)

I know that I said ASTm earlier but it was actually a CAN/CSA specification which is usually but not always the same as ASTM standards.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

This thread has been so much fun, I'm gonna change my trade to 


MASONARY:clap::thumbup::clap:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> typar is the exact same material used in landscape fabric and other geotextiles,it's the coating you see that gives it it's wrb abilities


 
Ok I see what you're saying. So what's the coating? Tyvek? hahaha

and my research was on Typar as a WRB so it must have included the coating. It's been a a long time, I don't remember too much about it other than that 1" puddle test and that my opinion was that tyvek was far superior to typar.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

loneframer said:


> This thread has been so much fun, I'm gonna change my trade to
> 
> 
> MASONARY:clap::thumbup::clap:


Good one dom...next thing you know there will be electricians and tile guys in here!:laughing::clap:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

dom-mas said:


> Well you seem to know a lot about it but when I did my research the specific test was that the product needed to hold a puddle of water 1" deep for an hour without passing any water. Tyvek lasted something like 2 hrs and typar lasted an hour 5 mins or something. I remember that very specifically because it seemed like such a real life test. One that actually means something to me. The other was just a result saying that tyvek allowed 1gram of water vapour through each mm2 every 5 minutes (or something I don't remember since it wasn't the same real life type result)
> 
> I know that I said ASTm earlier but it was actually a CAN/CSA specification which is usually but not always the same as ASTM standards.


well thats because they have different permeability ratings,tyvek being approx 2x as permeable than typar


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

loneframer said:


> This thread has been so much fun, I'm gonna change my trade to
> 
> 
> MASONARY:clap::thumbup::clap:



Won't be allowed if you keep spelling it like that.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> well thats because they have different permeability ratings,tyvek being approx 2x as permeable than typar


Permeable to vapour, not to liquid.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

they are not water proof they are bulk water resistant so yes they are permeable to liquid water


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> Won't be allowed if you keep spelling it like that.


berzactly


dom-mas said:


> Permeable to vapour, not to liquid.


put a little siding wash or cedar tannins in the water and do that test over.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

ok i will rephrase. Tyvek is less permeable to liquid and more permeable to vapour (i though it was only in one direction but I'm probably wrong). Typar is more permeable to liquid and less permeable to vapour.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

no they are not directional,but being that typar is coated on one side that is the side that should face out

as far as the differences in the performances you state remember it's all relative

you don't usually need or want a totally waterproof or extremely high permeability wrb


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> no they are not directional,but being that typar is coated on one side that is the side that should face out
> 
> as far as the differences in the performances you state remember it's all relative
> 
> you don't usually need or want a totally waterproof or extremely high permeability wrb


Yep. The only time you want high permeability is when wetting has occurred. When conditions are dry, less permeability is desirable.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

not necessarily,that just allows more moisture in 

felt has it's place just usually not under my siding


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

then we come to air barriers


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> not necessarily,that just allows more moisture in


and back out. trapped moisture is the enemy.

Let me buy you a drink Tom. You want a Tyvek lid on that, or ASF?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

you love me and you know it:laughing:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> then we come to air barriers


wait,,, Tyvek was originally marketed as an "air infiltration barrier" back when you were still in diapers Tom.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

actually we were one of the first siding crews to use it way back when,then it was a miracle insulation:thumbup:


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I wondered how this would turn out with two siding guys in here...now we know.:laughing:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

he's a framer:whistling

all kidding aside Lone has his preference and i wouldn't ever question how he does his jobs,cause i know no matter what he put under his siding he knows it's the detailing thats most important:surrender:


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Tom Struble said:


> he's a framer:whistling


Siders, framers... all the same to us masons, you are the guys that dont put the tyvek up crooked.:lol:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> actually we were one of the first siding crews to use it way back when,then it was a miracle insulation:thumbup:


I'm pretty sure I was like 11 or something when I first saw Tyvek in the building trades. You must have been what, 2? It was trademarked the year I was born. In 1979 Devo was wearing it on stage.:laughing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyvek


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

I used to wonder how you guys could rack up so many posts. It is all now clear.


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