# How do you design a deck?



## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

I got a nice PM from a member and thought it deserved a thread of it's own.
I posted my free form deck recently and was asked how did I come up with that design.
It would be interesting to ask the same thing of Mac who did the Oval deck.
How do you come up with a design that the homeowner buys into?

A couple of thoughts on design....

"Form follows function"
This sounds cliche but I try to use that as my primary thought process.

When working with the client I ask what function of the deck is. 
Is it a gathering spot for entertaining? (multi level, unique gathering areas)
Is it just a place to put the grill? (simple shape, small size)
Is it a playpen for the pets & kids? (Big enough for Romp a Room, small enough to control their environment)

This helps determine size and shape.....

In the deck I posted, the client said the main purpose was to get from the porch down to the pool and from the porch to the side driveway.
Sounds simple.

This had a six foot elevation change.
She talked to other builders who proposed a straight "ramp" type set of stairs.
Boring boring boring......no design just function

I broke the stairs up into 3 platform landings and it instantly gave the ability to add bench seats and any other item of interest they wanted.

Hence.....Form following function.

The other design tool I use a lot is mockups.
It's very important that a client participates in the design process
It helps tremendously went they can "see" the scale, proportion and location before the shovel hits the dirt.

In the same thread, I showed how I took scraps of plywood and 2x and made a full size model for the HO and myself to see.










It worked great for her to see it. She tweaked it so it would be heading toward the garden.
It worked great for me since this gave me the location and elevations of the platforms.










Some folks design on the computer. Good if it works for them. But usually a computer is doing design on flat ground and a client still has to be able to envision how this will look in THEIR back yard not on a computer screen.


I'm sure there's lots of different methods....but that's mine.
What yours?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

tcleve4911 said:


> Some folks design on the computer. Good if it works for them. But usually a computer is doing design on flat ground and a client still has to be able to envision how this will look in THEIR back yard not on a computer screen.


You had a relatively unique situation there, where you were working more with ramp/stair design than typical deck space. I would probably do something similar as long as I felt I had the client in my pocket and the effort wouldn't be wasted.

Most often though, I'll mock it up on the computer with a relatively rudimentary sketch, enough to get the concept across.

If I was in the habit of doing high-end decks, which I'm definitely not, I would invest in one of the better software packages that do allow you to lay out the ground contours for very realistic renderings, from multiple points of view.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

I think your design process & finished product are awesome. Not all jobs lend themselves to being able to do a mock up but, when you can they are awesome. The CAD programs that can render a "photo" of the project are great and often times work well. But nothing beats seeing it in place. Sorta like looking at paint chips, "ya that's the color I want, absolutely", until it gets on the wall, oops.


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## Bill Z (Dec 10, 2006)

tcleve4911 said:


> *When working with the client I ask* what function of the deck is.
> Is it a gathering spot for entertaining? (multi level, unique gathering areas)
> Is it just a place to put the grill? (simple shape, small size)
> Is it a playpen for the pets & kids? (Big enough for Romp a Room, small enough to control their environment)
> ...


Tcleve,

You "get it". It's all about discovering what the customer wants to accomplish, then proving that you understand them. You are doing exactly that when you ask questions on their level of understanding.

Your mock ups prove to the customer you care enough to invest the time and your design talents to help them become comfortable with you doing the project. You are setting yourself above all other competition and making price a non issue.

You must have a very good closing ratio on the projects you want to sell.
Thanks for sharing your technique.

Bill


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## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

I ask them few questions 
One of them being budget
After they tell me there budget
I draw them a square with three footings:laughing:


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## kwt const (Oct 28, 2010)

What I see here is a good example of approaching a situation as "unique," and not just whipping out the cookie cutter. The homeowner was probably impressed with your willingness to help her visualize something more than just some stairs. Topography requires a lot of notes or a laser scanner. Being on-sight helped to get it right. You probably would have used more time running back and forth to the computer; making the changes and printing out more drawings and 3D. I use tape measures and sticks, staging, drag a lazy dog where the corner is going to be. If it's silly but it works, then it's not silly.
Give them an idea of their vision and then draw it up. If they have e-mail, AWESOME. Decking orientation, balusters, rails, etc. are details for the computer. Topo designer if necessary. Second story mock-ups may be a challenge. Good tips and great job. Thanks.:thumbup: on all posts here.


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## kwt const (Oct 28, 2010)

nailkiller1 said:


> I ask them few questions
> One of them being budget
> After they tell me there budget
> I draw them a square with three footings:laughing:


:laughing: I feel your pain. :laughing:


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

tcleve4911 said:


> Some folks design on the computer. Good if it works for them. But usually a computer is doing design on flat ground and a client still has to be able to envision how this will look in THEIR back yard not on a computer screen.
> 
> 
> I'm sure there's lots of different methods....but that's mine.
> What yours?


Works for me. This is the last one I did on ground that wasn't flat. I gave them a few options based on what they wanted, including one with a pergola, but this is the one they chose.


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## Bill Z (Dec 10, 2006)

*Budget question*



nailkiller1 said:


> I ask them few questions
> One of them being budget
> After they tell me there budget
> I draw them a square with three footings:laughing:


I realize that part of your post is in jest, but do you really ask their budget?

I'm just getting started at this sales thing (started 41 years ago and still love it) but I can't remember ever asking a customer what their budget might be.


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## kwt const (Oct 28, 2010)

Bill Z said:


> I realize that part of your post is in jest, but do you really ask their budget?
> 
> I'm just getting started at this sales thing (started 41 years ago and still love it) but I can't remember ever asking a customer what their budget might be.


Bravo, Bill Z. 41 years and still love it. I would not presume to debate you for your experience has seen many seasons. I believe nailkiller is touching on the occasional situation where we do the leg work, estimating, number crunching, drawing, planning, you know the drill, and the customer decides it's too much to spend and settles on something much less. You bring up a good point that a good salesman can inspire confidence in the extra mile. I never ask the budget, but I read the ques. Finding the balance between super-sales pitch and what they want to live with and pay for is hard sometimes. I think it is important to laugh at ourselves and learn from our mistakes, as professionals do. Thanks for posting and help us find the way.


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## Bill Z (Dec 10, 2006)

KWT,

Don't get me wrong, even after 41 years I still have the same hurdles to jump as everyone else. But you can easily imagine that after four decades I have learned to sit back and relax so a sale can take a natural and easy course. I approach every customer with this in mind. 

*"People have a preconceived idea in their mind about what it's going to be like to do business with you."* 

That idea is a compilation of everything they've heard about you through your marketing, word-of-mouth, perceptions about your facility, vehicles, and even the clothes you wear. It includes their hopes about what you can accomplish, and some hopes about dollars. 

The tricky thing about that early dollar figure is that it has no logical basis. It may be that their Uncle Harry had a room installed 10 years ago for $12,000. maybe it's how much money they have in their checking account, or what the bank said they can borrow. Again, it has no logic, so why would I want to know what it is?

Your job, and my job is to find out what all of those expectations are, then either meet them, change them to fit reality, or walk away. It's not a five minute process.

I need time to discover what they think, and time to change it to reality by educating them about quality and value. I cut them off at the pass by asking their budget before I've educated them on what is in their best interest, both of us lose. I have to be patient and walk them through the options, and let the choices be their ideas. I don't really care what they think they'll spend when we meet, I care what they'll invest after they learn what's important about having one of my rooms on their home.


Even if I run the lead, do the drawings, price out the job, make two trips and still miss the mark, what did I lose? My time maybe, but my ego crawled in the closet a long time ago. By giving them some time, I gained twice as many opportunities than if I'd have asked for a budget early on and stopped them in their tracks.

I'm just saying, asking price early on is more about the fear of rejection than it is about good business practices. Everyone has their own system and if it works for them, great. I'm preaching a little, but certainly not judging or arguing. I'm just providing another point of view to open up some thought and discussion.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Bill Z said:


> KWT,
> 
> Don't get me wrong, even after 41 years I still have the same hurdles to jump as everyone else. But you can easily imagine that after four decades I have learned to sit back and relax so a sale can take a natural and easy course. I approach every customer with this in mind.
> 
> ...


So if they want a $40,000 project and only have $10k in the bank then how is my spending hours designing and selling them on the $40k going to put $30k in the bank for them? Just trying to figure it all out. 

Do I ask for the budget every time? No, I first evaluate a few things, if they have been given our number by a previous client they probably know we are not cheap. I also look at the value of the house (5-15% is a reasonable amount to spend on an outdoor space) Sometimes I ask or find some pics of projects we have completed and discuss the options and the approx cost of those projects, this gives them ideas and sometimes they learn they are right on, need to change some options, they need more money, or they need to call a craigslist builder. 

Here is a design we are working on right now


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## kwt const (Oct 28, 2010)

Now we're talking. Definitely no sarcasm toward you intended in my post, Bill Z. :thumbup:
*
"People have a preconceived idea in their mind about what it's going to be like to do business with you."* 

This is a million dollar statement. One customer will have his sword drawn on you the minute you get out of the truck, and the next will say, "By God, this is what I want, make it happen." We are just as much psychologists as we are carpenters. Some of my work is based on repair, so it's things they need or have to do. Many times on things they want to do, I don't have to ask the budget. The first words out of their mouths are, "Depending on how much it costs and I don't want to spend a whole lot." Occasionally followed by: "but I want it done in three weeks." I won't get into the husband and wife arguments, but finding the facts while creating excitement about their project is a skill; like free handing an arch with a saber saw.

I make a computer drawing on most of the stuff I do, even if it's not necessary. This helps me stay in practice and makes the projects with detailed drawings easier. Here's an example of one I drew about six different ways. The homeowner wanted to see a plan with the joists at 45 deg to allow for square butt joints on the diagonal decking.


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## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bill Z said:


> I realize that part of your post is in jest, but do you really ask their budget?
> 
> I'm just getting started at this sales thing (started 41 years ago and still love it) but I can't remember ever asking a customer what their budget might be.


 
I am not good at sales 
I realized that a long time ago
I do know a bit about construction and pricing though
Yes I talk to them a little about there project 
Giving them info and ideas so they know I have construction skills
Then yes I need to know How much they can spend
I realize this is a little crude but I am either leaving in ten minutes
with no estimate obligation
Or getting a check for design in 30 min


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## TsiGtp (Nov 15, 2008)

I like to make 45s on the corners of the decks I build It wastes some space but I think it makes them more visually attractive.


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

nailkiller1 said:


> I am not good at sales
> I realized that a long time ago
> I do know a bit about construction and pricing though
> Yes I talk to them a little about there project
> ...


I think that stands true to a lot of us, Killer.
It's critical that you can weed out a tire kicker.
Getting paid for design is a litmus test for their commitment to a project.
Good post:thumbsup:


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## bdoles (Sep 11, 2007)

kwt const said:


> Now we're talking. Definitely no sarcasm toward you intended in my post, Bill Z. :thumbup:
> *
> "People have a preconceived idea in their mind about what it's going to be like to do business with you."*
> 
> ...


What software do you use for your plans? If you don't mind me asking?


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## turboaustralia (Nov 12, 2010)

Wow.. This is a super post on building deck. Love decking pics you have shared and love your ideas on the same. Thank you for this wonderful insight..


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## kwt const (Oct 28, 2010)

bdoles said:


> What software do you use for your plans? If you don't mind me asking?



Sorry for the late response. I may take the long way around, but it works simply enough for me. I use Architect Series Punch Pro to create the dimensions and spacings. I "print screen" and paste to the newer and better version of MS Paint. I cut the part I want and paste to an 8-1/2" X 11" blank template that I made. I add details and notes. Print the page and it fits in a folder. More than adequate to show the client. I am not an architect and there are some limitations. It has quality 3D images, but may not work well for entire house plans without a professional 18" or 22" printer... around three grand. The economy way works for me. :laughing:


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## Zendik (Sep 18, 2005)

Nice deck.

I wouldn't have the time to build a mock up with other jobs being bidded or in progress.
With my computer I can build the deck from sketches and e-mail renderings of the deck photo-shopped to their actual house if I need.

I can churn out several designs without buying one piece of plywood and have an animated presentation with photo realistic renderings.

Great skills, tcleve4911...
Thumbs up for sure.


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