# For hardscapes, do you guys use elevations info or cross sections on your drawings?



## Alex R (Apr 25, 2021)

My estimators( also draftmen) currently make landscaping drawings simply in the regular two dimension drawings with little regards for elevations or including cross sections. This create the situation that foremen build patios or retaining walls at the wrong elevations.

Also the estimator makes the error of missing the need for retaining walls or to step-down the patios which creates lots of money/design issues with clients and having to redo the work.

On this case I'm going to show a simple 2 dimension drawing showing the house (red), a step (light blue) and patio (dark blue). 

The magenta color is section showing how that simple drawing can be done in 3 different ways and creates the elevations issues with the patio (which could be flushed with Main floor, dropped 6" or even 12")

I'm not saying you necessarily need cross sections, but you can say: "the patio is flushed with Main floor" or "patio is dropped x inches from main floor"


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Alex R said:


> This create the situation that foremen build patios or retaining walls at the wrong elevations.


They're not the wrong elevations if there is nothing on the print saying otherwise.


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## Half-fast Eddie (Aug 21, 2020)

I have seen symbols like this for floor elevation changes.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

The solution to this is estimate and design with an elevation view included. I don't know how you expect to build decks without one.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

You don't need an elevation view you just need to include the information on the 2D drawing.
Each of the "blocks" simply need a A.F.F. call out for elevation.
Steps would be -6" AFF
Patio would be -12" AFF


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Joe Fairplay said:


> You don't need an elevation view you just need to include the information on the 2D drawing.
> Each of the "blocks" simply need a A.F.F. call out for elevation.
> Steps would be -6" AFF
> Patio would be -12" AFF


Works fine, except for the retaining wall his estimator and designer missed. 

Plus, lot plan and elevations are required here to get a permit. Minimal extra work.


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## Willievkatz (Jul 28, 2021)

What @Half-fast Eddie was referring to. Difficult to imagine much accuracy without some specific elevation details.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Willievkatz said:


> View attachment 532418
> 
> What @Half-fast Eddie was referring to. Difficult to imagine much accuracy without some specific elevation details.


Is there a call out for this symbol in the symbol key on the plan?
Does anyone have a reference they can direct me to for this symbol?
I am not familiar with it, it doesn't show any of my reference charts and it is not a symbol in my Intellicad Library.
I read them as only slope indicators.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

hdavis said:


> Works fine, except for the retaining wall his estimator and designer missed.
> 
> Plus, lot plan and elevations are required here to get a permit. Minimal extra work.


I agree with you but the first failure in that case would be that the retaining wall should have been included on the spec sheet used to estimate from.
If a retaining wall exists, it would need to be drawn somewhere denoting the materials and practices for construction or a technical description on the spec sheet.


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## Willievkatz (Jul 28, 2021)

QUOTE="Joe Fairplay, post: 8096877, member: 306945"]
Is there a call out for this symbol in the symbol key on the plan?
Does anyone have a reference they can direct me to for this symbol?
I am not familiar with it, it doesn't show any of my reference charts and it is not a symbol in my Intellicad Library.
I read them as only slope indicators.
[/QUOTE]

Good question. I don't often see them listed in the symbol key. From textual notes on the page, it's refered to as drop in the foundation.

Another symbol that's relevant and helpful in this context is the elevation symbol. These are always included in our new build plans, but not sure how common they are in landscape/hardscape plans at the scale that OP is referencing.


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## Alex R (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks for the information in regards of symbols. Very useful.


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## Alex R (Apr 25, 2021)

Joe Fairplay said:


> I agree with you but the first failure in that case would be that the retaining wall should have been included on the spec sheet used to estimate from.
> If a retaining wall exists, it would need to be drawn somewhere denoting the materials and practices for construction or a technical description on the spec sheet.


The issue is the estimators/draftmen because they don't use elevation information they fail to catch the need for retaining walls and so on.

Then the issue of having to ask the client for more money and/or changes in design the client was not aware of.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Alex R said:


> The issue is the estimators/draftmen because they don't use elevation information they fail to catch the need for retaining walls and so on.
> Then the issue of having to ask the client for more money and/or changes in design the client was not aware of.


I understand the problem I just expounded on the reason the problem occurs.
In my world there cannot be a retaining wall to be priced if there is no call out of the material and/or process for it in the drawings or in the specifications sheet.
Are we confusing terminology and is it just an exposed foundation wall being used as a retaining wall? Who knows, we don't have a lot of context to work from.
If the words retaining wall don't appear on the plan or in the spec sheet, there should be no expectation of a price for one.
There are many layers of failure that can occur that are just process issues.
You are issued a preliminary or conceptual drawing that is incomplete and you are asked to price it. Maybe it's just a slope or an elevation change with no description or context in the drawings. More clarity will be brought in as the plan gets complete.
This is why it's important to include the plan date and version when estimating off it with a disclaimer that that all changes or revisions will have to be re-priced.
In any event, you surely cannot guess or design in a retaining wall that is not denoted on the plan.
If you find there should or think there could be one, than an RFI should be issued to the architect for clarity. The same if you find yourself saying hmm, there has to be an elevatio nchange to accomplish this but it's not on the plan. RFI issued.
How could you price in a retaining wall without a specification sheet telling you the materials requested. 
Is it dirt, rail ties, concrete, masonry or a combination of all or some. Someone had to calculate the pressure and minimum requirements to contain and resist it.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Joe Fairplay said:


> I agree with you but the first failure in that case would be that the retaining wall should have been included on the spec sheet used to estimate from.
> If a retaining wall exists, it would need to be drawn somewhere denoting the materials and practices for construction or a technical description on the spec sheet.


Agreed. Small outfits can be a little informal about things, and it can bite.

Some people will quote a simple deck without a design, they just call the specs out and go from there. I haven't heard one of those missing a site condition.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Good idea to call out and show slope on landings and patios also......... .25:12 is used a lot (1/4" in 12"), use a leader line (an arrow) to show the direction of the slope, sections aren't a bad idea either. 

The goal should be to make everything as clear as possible, it's a lot easier changing some lines in the office than it is to break out the jackhammer in the field.


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## Alex R (Apr 25, 2021)

Joe Fairplay said:


> Are we confusing terminology and is it just an exposed foundation wall being used as a retaining wall? Who knows, we don't have a lot of context to work from.



No sure if this would help. The estimator/draftman would draw something like this showing a patio being added. In this case I added grade line for clarification.

If you see the section below, due to the lot grading a retaining wall is needed to keep the patio straight. In most cases, the estimator either misses to include a retaining wall in the design/estimate or the wall added is too short.

This is a problem as there is no way to build the patio without a proper remaining wall.

The main issue I see most of these estimators do not understand grading well. They seem to know a lot about the plants, products, artistic look, etc but not the grading/math portion of it.

They have Architectural landscaping technician degrees but little to none site experience. At the same time the guys with site experience do not know how to draw in computers (or even use one).


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## Willievkatz (Jul 28, 2021)

Alex R said:


> No sure if this would help. The estimator/draftman would draw something like this showing a patio being added. In this case I added grade line for clarification.
> 
> If you see the section below, due to the lot grading a retaining wall is needed to keep the patio straight. In most cases, the estimator either misses to include a retaining wall in the design/estimate or the wall added is too short.
> 
> ...


As I'm looking at your sketches I have a thought: regardless of your process, what your drawings call out and don't, etc.--the key here is that everyone is on board with your process from estimate to construction. The entire team needs clarity from leadership--and to be on the same page--about what information is provided during estimate stage, how this information is translated via drawings, how layout is performed with said drawings, etc. Any symbols, views, etc. are meaningless unless you have an organization-wide understanding of how they translate into real life.


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## Half-fast Eddie (Aug 21, 2020)

Alex R said:


> The issue is the estimators/draftmen because they don't use elevation information they fail to catch the need for retaining walls and so on.


Could be the draftsman is limiting his scope to the footprint of the structure. Landscaping & site work is by others.


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## Joe Fairplay (Aug 26, 2021)

Alex R said:


> The estimator/draftman would draw ...
> the estimator either misses to include a retaining wall in the design/estimate or the wall added is too short...
> They have Architectural landscaping technician degrees but little to none site experience...


I know in a small shop people take on different roles and are probably not qualified to do all of the roles assigned.
The pipeline of designer - drafting - estimating are all specific skill sets.
I would not expect any of one skill to be proficient in any of the other skills.
A few of us with design/build capabilities can handle the 3 processes but this is a large ask for someone without a ton of schooling and experience. 
The people with such a varied skill set tend to work for themselves or are way too expensive to hire as an employee for a small company.


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## Alex R (Apr 25, 2021)

Half-fast Eddie said:


> Could be the draftsman is limiting his scope to the footprint of the structure. Landscaping & site work is by others.


no. you have to imagine a home owner call us to price a patio. We give a price for the patio, the client accepts.

Then the crew goes to build the patio, then foreman says: "we can't built this without a retaining wall"


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