# Shame on me, I did it



## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

RS you told me to hire a professional. Well I did sort of. I contacted a guy I know (union electrician) He came over after work, disconnected live feed at junction box and left me own my own to make the taps further down the line, install the 2 lights, and reconnect the hots w/another light tied in. The arc under load was no more than a 12 year old snaping their fingers. I guess he came down to make sure I could do it then he left me there because he did not want to get caught working off the clock. I had no choice but to finish. Not that I'm cocky now about working live and would only do it if it's 120 and only if no other choice. I asked him if he worked live 277, he said yes but he don't like it. So go ahead let me have it. scold me, kick me off of CT Anyway I got it done and got paid:clap:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

OK, lemme see if I got this straight.

You hired a union electrician to do part of an electrical job. My guess is there was no permit or inspection involved. You did the rest of the work, and this union guy hooked it back up, without so much as checking your work. And he's afraid of getting caught working 'off the clock' doing side work.

Why do I hear a trainwreck happening?

So now, if the place burns down, who gets sued?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

ppppffffffffffttttttttttt

Electrical is easy. I own this:


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## MAD Renovations (Nov 18, 2007)

480sparky said:


> So now, if the place burns down, who gets sued?


 
Cheers:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

angus242 said:


> ppppffffffffffttttttttttt
> 
> Electrical is easy. I own this:


Then you need this:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Then you need this:


That's why RS is there. Watch me go into cardiac dysrhythmia, zap me back to life & then slap me & say "I told you so" :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

angus242 said:


> That's why RS is there. Watch me go into cardiac dysrhythmia, zap me back to life & then slap me & say "I told you so" :laughing:



No, RS needs this one:


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Well we're glad you survived, but :whistling


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

480sparky said:


> No, RS needs this one:


Why do I need this?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> Why do I need this?



Oh, sorry. Wrong book.


This one: :laughing:


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Hey 480, No he did not hook it back up I did, He only disconnected, and left me there. He knew I could do it, what is the big deal? I never understood electrician's protectionism when it comes to low end work. The plumber isn't going to have a hemmorage if I run a new frost free sillcock is he? I have never understood some sparkie's temperment either. I asked another spark I know if he would help me out (and this is a guy I have done a beautiful deck and trellis for) and he about bit my head off, all I did was ask for his help. Sparks have a reputation around these parts as being contemptable especially when they are on a big site they leave their little bits of wire all over the floor and think they are too good to pick up after their self. I'm not disrespecting you personally I just wonder why the apprehension towards some one trying to get by


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Oh, sorry. Wrong book.
> 
> 
> This one: :laughing:


Can I borrow yours?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> Hey 480, No he did not hook it back up I did, He only disconnected, and left me there. He knew I could do it, what is the big deal? I never understood electrician's protectionism when it comes to low end work. The plumber isn't going to have a hemmorage if I run a new frost free sillcock is he? I have never understood some sparkie's temperment either. I asked another spark I know if he would help me out (and this is a guy I have done a beautiful deck and trellis for) and he about bit my head off, all I did was ask for his help. Sparks have a reputation around these parts as being contemptable especially when they are on a big site they leave their little bits of wire all over the floor and think they are too good to pick up after their self. I'm not disrespecting you personally I just wonder why the apprehension towards some one trying to get by



Adding another sillcock probably won't kill somebody. How many people do you know have gotten killed from leaking water pipes?

Did you meg out the circuit before you reconnected it?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Irishslave said:


> just wonder why the apprehension towards some one trying to get by


A licensed electrician did not learn by trial & error. There's a (big) reason electricians are required to be licensed more than perhaps almost any other trade.


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## MAD Renovations (Nov 18, 2007)

angus242 said:


> A licensed electrician did not learn by trial & error. There's a (big) reason electricians are required to be licensed more than perhaps almost any other trade.


Cheers:thumbsup:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Adding another sillcock probably won't kill somebody. How many people do you know have gotten killed from leaking water pipes?
> 
> Did you meg out the circuit before you reconnected it?



If you time it perfectly, maybe the sillcock will leak just enough before the electrical fire breaks out. :whistling


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## willworkforbeer (Mar 7, 2009)

angus242 said:


> If you time it perfectly, maybe the sillcock will leak just enough before the electrical fire breaks out. :whistling


If I remember correctly this kind of crap was why I was banned several times and then permanently (dont know why perm was lifted), but anyway... this kind of chit drives me nuts. A 12 year old retard can figure out normal wiring, its not that difficult, seriously.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

willworkforbeer said:


> If I remember correctly this kind of crap was why I was banned several times and then permanently (dont know why perm was lifted), but anyway... this kind of chit drives me nuts. A 12 year old retard can figure out normal wiring, its not that difficult, seriously.



Then we need more 12 year old retards doing electrical. I have seen some pretty bad stuff over the years...and electrical isn't even my thing.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

480sparky said:


> Oh, sorry. Wrong book.
> 
> 
> This one: :laughing:


i'll be expecting my royalty check, por favor...


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

willworkforbeer said:


> ,,,,,,,,,. A 12 year old retard can figure out normal wiring, its not that difficult, seriously.


And that kind of attitude is what kills people. Maybe you should hire 12-year old mentally handicapped people to wire you house.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

mahlere said:


> i'll be expecting my royalty check, por favor...



I'm still writing the Cadpoint-to-English section. :w00t:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

480sparky said:


> I'm still writing the Cadpoint-to-English section. :w00t:


i had a guy in Beligrade that was able to decipher Cadpoint...but oddly, he died in a self-inflicted spork accident...weird, huh?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

mahlere said:


> i had a guy in Beligrade that was able to decipher Cadpoint...but oddly, he died in a self-inflicted spork accident...weird, huh?


Did he fork when he shoulda spooned?


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## willworkforbeer (Mar 7, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Then we need more 12 year old retards doing electrical. I have seen some pretty bad stuff over the years...and electrical isn't even my thing.


Not trying to start an arguement, but I dont know how many old houses I have straightened out that had the neutral and hot reversed, old old systems with no ground. You wonder why they have burnt to the ground or killed someone.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

angus242 said:


> Did he fork when he shoulda spooned?


nah, he jambed it in the back of his neck and severed his spine...they say he missed his mouth...


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

willworkforbeer said:


> Not trying to start an arguement, but I dont know how many old houses I have straightened out that had the neutral and hot reversed, old old systems with no ground. You wonder why they have burnt to the ground or killed someone.


And they were probably wired by someone with more intelligence than a 12-year old.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Adding another sillcock probably won't kill somebody. How many people do you know have gotten killed from leaking water pipes?


Maybe not leaking, but people have died from bad plumbing work.

However, I'll take Irish & Willwork's side in this. You guys are indeed overprotective of your specialty. Quite understandable considering what you have invested in it, but still over the top.

*Basic* electrical work is very elementary, and doesn't take an Einstein to understand and do safely. Not complex high voltage multiphase stuff, but general residential work really is often less complicated than hooking up a high-end stereo.

As long as the guy doing it has enough sense to know when he's getting in over his head, no harm done. Other than robbing the mystical priesthood of quick & easy cash. :laughing:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

willworkforbeer said:


> Not trying to start an arguement, but I dont know how many old houses I have straightened out that had the neutral and hot reversed, old old systems with no ground. You wonder why they have burnt to the ground or killed someone.


Well _that's_ my point! Someone had to have reversed the hot or missed a ground....


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Maybe not leaking, but people have died from bad plumbing work.
> 
> However, I'll take Irish & Willwork's side in this. You guys are indeed overprotective of your specialty. Quite understandable considering what you have invested in it, but still over the top.
> 
> ...


So how is 'basic' electrical work "safer" than 'complex high voltage multiphase stuff'?

Electricity does not know it's phase, voltage, whether it's in a house or not, or the intelligence of the person turning the switch on.


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## willworkforbeer (Mar 7, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Well _that's_ my point! Someone had to have reversed the hot or missed a ground....


My point is I'm not an "electrician", way past that.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Tinstaafl said:


> Maybe not leaking, but people have died from bad plumbing work.
> 
> However, I'll take Irish & Willwork's side in this. You guys are indeed overprotective of your specialty. Quite understandable considering what you have invested in it, but still over the top.
> 
> ...


i have a cabin in NE PA (sullivan county)...no licensing..it was wired by the local jack of all trades...and besides the legitimate, and technical, code violations, it's a mess...not nearly enough wire to work on devices or junction boxes...buried junction boxes....etc...etc...maybe not things to cause panic, but frustratingly amatuerish and f'ing annoying...all because some jackleg figured "this is so easy, even a 12 yr old retarded caveman can do it..."...

just cause it works, and doesn't blow up immediately, doesn't mean that it's correct...


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Tinstaafl said:


> *Basic* electrical work *should be* very elementary


I agree more with that statement. Problem is, when someone screws it up, the results can be pretty bad. 

Regular people screw up paint jobs. Well, you know the rest...


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

willworkforbeer said:


> Not trying to start an arguement


But you did!


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## willworkforbeer (Mar 7, 2009)

I should listen to the news more, cause I just dont hear much about people dying from electrical stuff. Sorry mods, not trying to start a fight, just cant resist one.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

OK Lobby your state legistlature or better yet go to the beltway and get a law passed to prohibit home centers from selling any wire products, fittings, boxes, lights, switches, breakers, etc. Some years ago I peed some people off when I moved my house trailer unto a 1/2 acre lot and had electric service the night I moved in. I already had my 4/0 cable. I connected it in the trailer, connected it at meter base, and yes 2 ground rods, 1 at trailer, 1 at meter base. Threw switches....damn no juice. Hmm. Turn off switches pull meter, remove plastic tabs on back, reinsert, throw switches.. viola! These people were steamed because they had to "camp out" for a week or 2 and I was lit the first night. Someone had sour grapes and called Utility co. I got scolded.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Irishslave said:


> OK Lobby your state legistlature or better yet go to the beltway and get a law passed to prohibit home centers from selling any wire products, fittings, boxes, lights, switches, breakers, etc.


I'd rather lobby to get rid of stupid people :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

willworkforbeer said:


> I should listen to the news more, cause I just dont hear much about people dying from electrical stuff. Sorry mods, not trying to start a fight, just cant resist one.


The reason you don't hear about it is because it takes months, maybe years, for the fire marshal to determine the ultimate cause. If a house is blown off it's foundation by an explosion in the basement, well, it's pretty obvious there was a gas leak. Chemical-sniffing dogs can quickly identify accelerants used to torch a house.

But fires caused by electrical faults are harder to pin down, and take a lot of time to fully investigate. By then, it's old news and the the press could care less about it.


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## willworkforbeer (Mar 7, 2009)

480sparky said:


> The reason you don't hear about it is because it takes months, maybe years, for the fire marshal to determine the ultimate cause. If a house is blown off it's foundation by an explosion in the basement, well, it's pretty obvious there was a gas leak. Chemical-sniffing dogs can quickly identify accelerants used to torch a house.
> 
> But fires caused by electrical faults are harder to pin down, and take a lot of time to fully investigate. By then, it's old news and the the press could care less about it.


If its that freakin dangerous lobby your local congressman to get electrical supplies pulled out of box stores. I can (and have) wired an entire house from lowes or home depo, panel included. Not that difficult, more physical work then anything.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

willworkforbeer said:


> A 12 year old retard can figure out normal wiring, its not that difficult, seriously.


Maybe when you turn 12 you can give it a shot Corky.:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

willworkforbeer said:


> If its that freakin dangerous lobby your local congressman to get electrical supplies pulled out of box stores. I can (and have) wired an entire house from lowes or home depo, panel included. Not that difficult, more physical work then anything.



That's been tried, and failed miserably. Electricity itself is not dangerous. POOR ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS are. 

Who cares if you wired a house entirely from material from a big box store? Is it somehow intrinsically less safe than what is carried by an electrical supply house? NO.

I'll agree with you.... anyone can make it work. But that don't make it safe.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

well, for the record, i think tile work is the easiest part of home building...residentially anyway...


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

mahlere said:


> well, for the record, i think tile work is the easiest part of home building...residentially anyway...


Ouch. And here I thought we bonded over a spork gone wild. :sad:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

angus242 said:


> Ouch. And here I thought we bonded over a spork gone wild. :sad:


well, on the plus side, i'm thinking that drywalling, deck building, framing, and plumbing are all easier than tiling...on the residential level anyway...

i mean, framing, plumb/level/square - how hard is that?

drywalling - christ, they're all high when they do it, how hard can it be?

deck building - stagger joints...simple...

and plumbing needs to know 3 things...s**t runs down hill, payday is on friday, and don't chew your nails...a 10 yr old retard can remember those...

so, obviously...the hardest part of residential construction is dealing with the wife...


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## bhock (Feb 17, 2009)

I am not taking anyones side here, but I would much rather read my tiny little IRC book than the NEC book any day.
Can I wire a house? Yes I can, I apprenticed and took my classes but never got my license. Would I wire a house? NO!


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

but i bet your wife could wire one


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

bhock said:


> I am not taking anyones side here, but I would much rather read my tiny little IRC book than the NEC book any day.
> Can I wire a house? Yes I can, I apprenticed and took my classes but never got my license. Would I wire a house? NO!



Why not an NEC? They're tiny!


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> Wow who thought tradesman could get so emotional? seriously guys, I do stick to a few general rules when doing anything electrical, and if I am in over my head I call help, which is just what I did, to make sure nothing was handled improperly. I leave serviceable loops, avoid sharp bends in wire, make sure of ratings, make sure all connections are tight etc. Journeyman Electrician? not even close, but I have watched enough and seen enough over the years to at least complete 120 circuit work. By the way I think backstabbing sucks, outlets should be pigtailed that way if 59 cent outlet from Home Cheapo goes bad no harm, no foul. How is that for a hack or as one of my sparky friends calls me a j****ff carpenter


You seem to have a great grasp on what is right and wrong.

When you look at the crap that we (as electricians) see all the time though, we are constantly amazed that there are not more people killed.

It's completely luck that it hasn't happened in most cases.


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## bhock (Feb 17, 2009)

what is that from 1910?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

bhock said:


> what is that from 1910?



1897.


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## bhock (Feb 17, 2009)

I see it contains code for heating as well. 
Boy has that book grown.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

bhock said:


> ...........Boy has that book grown.



Ya think? :laughing:


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## bhock (Feb 17, 2009)

I mean really! I cant be 100% sure but I think my pocket guide to NEC book is 500 pages.


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## bhock (Feb 17, 2009)

Is that your collection?
Very impressive!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

bhock said:


> I mean really! I cant be 100% sure but I think my pocket guide to NEC book is 500 pages.



The NFPA gets rich by killing trees. :whistling


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

bhock said:


> Is that your collection?
> Very impressive!


Yea. I also collect the handbooks (sorry, no photo) and old catalogs.


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## bhock (Feb 17, 2009)

480sparky said:


> The NFPA gets rich by killing trees. :whistling


NFPA, EPA they all like using paper.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

bhock said:


> NFPA, EPA they all like using paper.


Don't forget the IRS.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

rselectric1 said:


> You seem to have a great grasp on what is right and wrong.
> 
> When you look at the crap that we (as electricians) see all the time though, we are constantly amazed that there are not more people killed.
> 
> It's completely luck that it hasn't happened in most cases.


I understand that and I thank you, I don't want to step on anybodys toes. i just want to make a living and do it safely. How many decks have collapsed in recent years? why? people don't understand loads and what it takes to hold them, same thing, someones carelessness gets people killed and it's unfortunate. I believe the TV shows have done a great disservice to the GP igniting interest but at the same time it encourages people to go beyond their limitations. Therein lies the danger


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## ampman (Apr 1, 2009)

i've seen these type of people do electrical work and when they mess it up they say " hey i'am just a carpenter not an electricain"


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

480sparky said:


> Oh, sorry. Wrong book.
> 
> 
> This one: :laughing:


That book has a lot of valuable information just look who wrote it.


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