# Question for Carpenters from painters



## CarlW (Feb 2, 2006)

Okay, this is something I have been curious about for about 20 years. In the opinion of a professional carpenter, what would be considered standard practice for using wood glue with raw wood? This is of particular interest to me lately because I just finished staining and finishing 5 consecutive jobs where windows were replaced by 5 seperate carpenter crews and all 5 smeared glue on the wood at the mitres. A few of them actually used the glue like a caulk in between two pieces of wood. So, I am curious if this would be considered hack work or is the regular, every day carpenter just not aware that smearing glue on wood that is to be stained is a bad thing to do? I'm looking for the norm here....I'm wondering how much complaining I'm allowed to do with this before I become unreasonable.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

They were morons that didn't care, or didn't know better, which would mean their boss is the head moron.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

It's been years since I've done stain grade trim. Painted woodwork has been all the rage for many years here. 

That being said, when we used to do stain grade, if it wasn't prestained and finished, it didn't get glued at all.:thumbsup:


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## Mrmac204 (Dec 27, 2006)

are you speaking about the casing? 
If a miter isn't tight, its wrong. Cut the correct angle in the first place! we used to know this as chasing the miter. I also sometimes pre-assemble the casing on my work table, using some specialty clamps (clam clamp) and wood glue- which yes, doe's sometimes get onto the face of the wood and its quickly wiped off. Install and leave the clamps in place for an hour or so, the miters do not open up and do not require caulking (bleh!) Some folks also use a biscuit in the miter as well. If you absolutely HAVE to (on paint grade) use a wood filler, NOT caulking!

I think you have a legitimate complaint.


Laurie

www.lauriescustomfinishing.ca


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Smearing no, applying, yes. It will come out of the joint some, but a damp cloth ready to wipe off excess IMO is usually the norm on stain grade. Oozing and smearing, filling the (wth?) gap is a big no no on stain grade. There should be NO gap.


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## Trim-man (Mar 13, 2010)

Glueing the joints on stained trim, absolutely. Using glue as filler, hack job all the way. It's not the painters job to clean up after the trim carpenter, ever! Just another example of the difference between a trim installer and a finish carpenter.


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## CarlW (Feb 2, 2006)

Yep, I'm talking about the casing. Some of these guys actually did have glue beads popping out between the casing and the window frame itself so I really don't know what that is about. And then of course you have some glue oozing out where the casing meets the sill. This last job I did was so bad, I considered just walking away or telling the homeowner to have all the casing replaced. What I really think I am going to do now is start insisting that I be allowed to pre-stain the casing. It's hard to do from a scheduling standpoint because I don't know the carpenters, but I almost feel like every window job I will do now will have a glue issue. Any good carpenters left in Illinois? Or, maybe it's just the window replacement industry?

By the way, from now on when someone tells me their installers are Pella certified, I'm going to have to ask if they are certified to install the casing.


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## D.Foster (Sep 13, 2008)

Im with the others for glue. But the carpenter needs to be aware of his pencil marks as well as the glue. I have used warm water with a tooth brush to get into the nooks and crannies of casings with good results:thumbsup:
Oh yea and a shot of compressed air....


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

All staining & finishing should be done before the trim is even installed. If I'm gluing something that's not finished, like framerman, a damp cloth will clean up excess glue.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Even paint grade, you still clean up the excess glue. 



> Between the casing and the window frame


Maybe I am misunderstanding that. On the backside of the casing? To the face edge of the extension jamb?


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

If you can get the trim stained and varnished before it is installed --go do it.

Much easier all around--easier on the painter--no extra work for the finish guy.

---(and yes there are still a few people who care about quality in Illinois)
If the trims are prefinished-I'll usually putty the work myself.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Kent, I think it was every where.

All it is, is someone who does not care.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I use glue on just about every joint except for coped. You don't need a lot of glue to make to pcs stick together. It should be cleaned up immediately. Best if it is taken out with the point of a knife. Putting water on the raw wood can let the glue sink into the grain.


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## CarlW (Feb 2, 2006)

framerman said:


> Even paint grade, you still clean up the excess glue.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I am misunderstanding that. On the backside of the casing? To the face edge of the extension jamb?


Exactly. I don't do much carpentry, but I can't for the life of me understand why glue would be needed to attach a piece of casing that is being fastened with nails. I guess he really wanted to be sure it was fastened.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

I rarely glue trim on doors or windows but if it's glued...Small amounts of glue can be expected on this type of trim even after its been wiped with a damp cloth. The finisher should take care to scrape any glue spots as he is staining. If there is alot of glue spots I can understand your frustration. You, of course, as the one bidding the finish work, should have probably noticed this when you looked at the job. 

Surely this isn't the first job you experienced such hurdles.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Because that's what we do. That's how we were taught. If you don't glue it it can move.


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## CarlW (Feb 2, 2006)

pinwheel said:


> All staining & finishing should be done before the trim is even installed. If I'm gluing something that's not finished, like framerman, a damp cloth will clean up excess glue.


Actually, I don't see why the finish would be necessary. Once the wood is stained, you are free to smear glue on it. I like to apply finish after installation so that all my putty gets a coat of poly....if you don't do that, the putty will eventually dry up and fall out.


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## D.Foster (Sep 13, 2008)

CarlW said:


> Exactly. I don't do much carpentry, but I can't for the life of me understand why glue would be needed to attach a piece of casing that is being fastened with nails. I guess he really wanted to be sure it was fastened.


 Well wood shrinks the most across its width, thats why all the un-glued casings open up at the short point of the miters over time and the tips stay tight. Glue helps with that, even when its nailed like b-jesus to the wall and jamb


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## Bergstrom (Mar 14, 2009)

I wonder if the person(s) who were doing the work were informed that the job was to be painted which would account for some of the butchery. I would make a few phone calls :blink:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

You run the risk of ghosting if you apply putty in the hole before finishing. The spot the the putty was applied to can infect the wood. You go around and can see where the put was applied even though it was sanded off. Not all putties do this.

As a finisher all my finishes get put on first and then I use wax crayons to fill in the holes. With the correct color crayon you don't even know the hole is there unless you go searching for them.


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## MRB 6.5TD (Apr 26, 2010)

Leo G said:


> Wood will move and joints will open. It is going to happen unless you glue.
> 
> If you only nail it will look great for some time. But it will open up. No doubt in my mind.



x2 100% .. IT's a must. Also make sure the glue is stainable. Don't have to overdue it.


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## orson (Nov 23, 2007)

I always glue every miter joint with no exceptions and consider it hackery not to do so.

When I'm doing raw stain grade trim I use a stainable wood glue and try to keep the glue to the back of the miter so no glue squeezes out.

Even wiping stain grade wood with a damp cloth can produce a fluctuation in the way the stain takes, so I try to get zero glue squeezing out of the joint, but if I do I wipe the glue off by running my finger down the miter joint wiping the excess into the joint where it will show up the least when stained. 

My preference is to install the trim stained and with 1 coat of finish then fill the holes with color matched putty and then apply another finish coat.


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## gdwoodbutcher (May 4, 2010)

*Any good painters in Illinois ???*

Hello Carl, I assume your kidding about Illinois carpenters. The casings should be glued at mitres and butt joints at sill, as well as the apron to underside of sill. Any squeeze out should be wiped away with damp rag. (double check a few minutes later to make sure I got all traces, if it's still coming out, well then the joint is not very tight !) The casings are NOT supposed to be glued to the window, it makes them impossible to change out in the future, just well nailed to jamb and wall with nice even spacing thru-out. I never sand mitres, as then you must sand entire piece, and then I'd be doing the painters job. I also do not fill nail holes as the painter will likely want to stain first. It sounds like you should talk with Homeowners, before you sign to do the work, because it sounds like a LOT of extra work because some guy couldn't bother to clean up after himself. If your a sub for the installer, well, good luck with that. My experience with window installation companies is they ONLY care about speed. Once there done, they know the customer won't need them for another couple decades. Anyways, Illinois has TON'S of great carpenters, and painters!


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