# estimating odd job



## timfratar (Sep 17, 2010)

A customer wants an existing concrete patio 15'x25' busted up into irregular size and shape pieces and then re-laid to look "like" a flagstone patio with grass in between the pieces. All hand work, some debris removal, some stone dust and topsoil brought in. Ideas for quoting this project.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Research, lots of research. 

And I'll warn you not to ask for prices, if you don't already know, as you'll get burned fast, as just joining and asking pricing questions.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I don't think I'd want to touch that. The demo is easy enough, but putting it all back together and having it look decent would be quite a stretch. Offer to do a real flagstone job.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

It can be done, but is really an art like most masonry jobs. Probably a good one for you to pass up.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I would think getting it to break into large enough pieces to reuse without a bunch of it becoming rubble would be pretty tricky.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

I think I'd be inclined to walk from it as well. 

If you do take it, then I'd be careful with the demo so as not to pulverize the pieces too badly, and then carefully move them sequentially so that you can put them back in about the same order and orientation. To be honest, this sounds like a lot of work for a really cr*ppy final product. Talk them into using actual flagstone, everyone will be happier with the final product.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

A. Spruce said:


> I think I'd be inclined to walk from it as well.
> 
> If you do take it, then I'd be careful with the demo so as not to pulverize the pieces too badly, and then carefully move them sequentially so that you can put them back in about the same order and orientation. To be honest, this sounds like a lot of work for a really cr*ppy final product. Talk them into using actual flagstone, everyone will be happier with the final product.


I agree.I don't think it will look like anything other than a bunch of busted up pieces of concrete.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

JumboJack said:


> I agree.I don't think it will look like anything other than a bunch of busted up pieces of concrete.


... with dirt and stone dust in between them.


It's going to look like doo-doo, ca-ca, poo-poo, as well as be a trip hazard when the grass starts ridging up between the chunks of rubble.


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## contractorcoach (Sep 14, 2010)

This is a rather simple project to do with one exception: wire mesh/rebar. Tell the customer that your price for demo has an allowance if there is any reinforcement and that there will have to be a whole new bid given at that time using stone because you won't be able to use any of the concrete. If you want the job, and I suspect that you do, you'll find that this is the best solution for both you and the customer. And yes, this is lot of heavy manual labor, so figure your pricing accordingly. Additionally, make sure that the client knows that the size of the area will change due to waste that is created when you break up the material.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

It would be easier to remove it and redo it to look like they want it to look.


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## bhock (Feb 17, 2009)

As coach said above if you start breaking it up and it was poured with a 6x6 mesh there is not going to be 
many large pieces to use.


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## timfratar (Sep 17, 2010)

Thank you all for the input. I am definitely rethinking this one, and apologize for the estimating cost question.


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## rjconstructs (Apr 26, 2009)

This might be one of those great ideas in theory but doesn't work well in reality. Getting the slab to break in the right spots would be tricky.
Then you would have to move all of the pieces to set the grade and lay the base material then try to put the puzzle back together in their new locations.
Its not impossible to do... but getting a number for labor would be difficult at best. 
Laying new would be easier.
If the grade would allow it, what about laying flagstone on top of the existing slab, then filling in the gaps?


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Just a thought coming from a plumber but flagstone done like that can be so awesome looking. If you show them some pictures of great examples they might be easily convinced to do it a different way.

From a sales standpoint sometimes customers are driven a certain direction because they think they can save money. It's hard as a contractor to pick up on this often times. What people say vs what they think are two different things. Just make sure you don't burn yourself. I don't know much aboiut it but to me that's a poor idea, and this is one of those cases where the customer is not right......no matter how you slice it.

The customer could also have a certain idea in there head they think they can only achieve doing it this way. Ask them if they have some photos of what they are thinking of. If they do fire back with some better ideas but in a different material.

Just my 2 Yen

Mike


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Just a thought coming from a plumber but flagstone done like that can be so awesome looking. If you show them some pictures of great examples they might be easily convinced to do it a different way.


Aw, what does a plumber know ... :w00t::w00t:



Mike's Plumbing said:


> From a sales standpoint sometimes customers are driven a certain direction because they think they can save money. It's hard as a contractor to pick up on this often times. What people say vs what they think are two different things. Just make sure you don't burn yourself. I don't know much aboiut it but to me that's a poor idea, and this is one of those cases where the customer is not right......no matter how you slice it.


It has been my experience, almost without exception, that the client "thinks" they can't afford something done right, so they cheap-arse an idea to the contractor in the hopes that they'll get something similar to what they want at a price that they "think" they can afford. I have always taken this as an opportunity to educate the client.

I tell them to imagine that they've just won the lottery and tell me what they want - money means nothing - just tell me what you want. I then take those wishes and put a price to them. Under that I price out various other options at lower price points, then I let them choose what they can and can't afford. Again, almost without exception, they go with what they wanted from the beginning rather than what they thought the could afford.

I chalk it up to the era of the big box, with promises of savings, when in reality they're paying far more for far less. We as professionals have to educate our clients as to what quality is, then deliver it to them at a price they thought they couldn't afford. When the two come together, you've not only sold yourself a job, you've sold yourself a long term, loyal client. :thumbsup:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

A. Spruce said:


> Aw, what does a plumber know ... :w00t::w00t:


Honestly....not much:laughing:


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## lucky644 (Jan 16, 2008)

It's a rather silly idea, and sadly decent flagstone doesn't come cheap. Tell them you will only do it right, or not at all. Haul out the crap and pull in Flagstone, because I bet they won't be happy with the end product if it's demo'd concrete...

My question would be where they saw this done, or where they got the inspiration for it...


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## tbronson (Feb 22, 2010)

No where near being a mason but my 2 cents... Breaking it is going to lead to crappy looking rubble, so wouldn't you have to use a concrete saw to cut the chunks into pieces that look like flagstone? Thus the labor cost goes way up making it cheaper in the long run to demo it then replace it with real stone...


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## pehsa76 (Oct 5, 2010)

yep this is one that i would walk away from has headache written all over it-


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

A. Spruce said:


> ..... so they cheap-arse an idea to the contractor in the hopes that they'll get something similar to what they want at a price that they "think" they can afford......


Then, all they're left with is something that only looks like........



JumboJack said:


> .....a bunch of busted up pieces of concrete......


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

OCRS, that about sums it up. :thumbsup::laughing:


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## IanS (Sep 18, 2009)

The advise given has been good. I would not do it. It will be 2-4 times the work of regular concrete. It will look horrible. Charge accordingly and get paid up front. They will hate it unless they have skipped visits to the eye doctor or smoke ganja or drink heavily.

But if you insist get a metal detector to check for rebar and mesh. Also use a drill in a few spots to check depth. I just finished another 4" pad demo that was 14" in some spots.

A jack hammer will work for large pieces, just use a 2-3 chisel bit and space the entry points 3-6" apart. (It will crack) Also plan on hauling half off because it will not go back together perfectly.

If you really want the job, do an overlay and cut it into irregular shapes the next morning (tile scribe) and stain it with 2-3 different colors then seal.


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