# John Deere Rider - Won't Start



## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

This is the model 345. It was stalling out late last years, and the carb was rebuilt which helped a lot. Rarely it would then stall and then pushing the forward choke kept it going. But running all winter plowing snow went great.

Fuel pump was done couple years ago.

Spark plugs are okay.

The fuel lines from the fuel filter onward, have all been replaced, as has the fuel pump (within 1-2 years)

When I view the fuel filter, and turn the ignition, I see fuel plopping forward through the window and can't tell if it's being restricted.

This starting problem is happening severely all at once, *with warmer temperatures and rain, moisture, seems to be getting in*. Don't think this model has anything like a distributor cap...or does it?

Aren't moisture issues often ignition related? Or is ignition more all or nothing?

Anyone have a clue on this?


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

Pull plug, ground plug, crank over. If it don't have spark, it's electrical. If it does have spark, it's either flooding, or starving.

There is a relay on a lot of those for the seat. If it's not depressed by sitting on it, it won't complete the ignition circuit. I bypassed my 318. You best bet for trouble shooting further, would be on a tractor forum.

It's a great idea to run some Seafoam through the tank once a year or so. It works wonders on removing crud, varnish, & water from the fuel & carb.
Joe


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

Railman said:


> Pull plug, ground plug, crank over. If it don't have spark, it's electrical. If it does have spark, it's either flooding, or starving.
> 
> There is a relay on a lot of those for the seat. If it's not depressed by sitting on it, it won't complete the ignition circuit. I bypassed my 318. You best bet for trouble shooting further, would be on a tractor forum.
> 
> ...


 Did test the seat switch, was alright.

Will test plugs.

What is Seafoam?


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## Okiecontractor (Oct 15, 2012)

Seafoam is a fuel additive.

A few yrs back mine wouldn't start. Wasn't getting good flow. Apparently the gas cap has a vent on it for fuel pressure and it was clogged. I could unscrew the cap and it would start right up. Bought a new cap and she's been good since.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

IIRC, jumping the spark more than 3/32" for small engines may overstress the ignition coil.
A short white spark without a blue center line won't work for a car but it seems to be OK for these engines.

This
http://www.asos1.com/tecumseh4hp/Tecumseh.pdf
has troubleshooting charts that probably apply to many small engines.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

Okiecontractor said:


> Seafoam is a fuel additive.
> 
> A few yrs back mine wouldn't start. Wasn't getting good flow. Apparently the gas cap has a vent on it for fuel pressure and it was clogged. I could unscrew the cap and it would start right up. Bought a new cap and she's been good since.


Vacummed that out late last year, but will try removing as you said. THX. Hopefully this is it.



GettingBy said:


> IIRC, jumping the spark more than 3/32" for small engines may overstress the ignition coil.
> A short white spark without a blue center line won't work for a car but it seems to be OK for these engines.
> 
> This
> ...


 Will check. Depended on the preset when they sold me the plug.


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

You Tube


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

artinall said:


> Vacummed that out late last year, but will try removing as you said. THX. Hopefully this is it.
> 
> Will check. Depended on the preset when they sold me the plug.


The compressed air/gas mix calls for a higher voltage for the spark to jump the same gap than if the gap is in uncompressed air.

"Paschen's Law is an equation that gives the breakdown voltage, that is the voltage necessary to start a discharge or electric arc, between two electrodes in a gas as a function of *pressure and gap length*.[2][3] "


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## rustyjames (Aug 28, 2008)

artinall said:


> ...But running all winter plowing snow went great...


So, in cold weather it runs OK? If that's the condition I would suspect either a faulty ignition coil, or an engine valve that's warping when the engine gets hot.


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=John+Deere+Rider+-+Won't+Start


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

As others have said , Seafoam . Kinda like an energy drink for engine's . If you think it's a moisture problem from temperature swings or an octane issue Seafoam should take care of it .You can get it at a tractor supply store or maybe HD .


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## rustyjames (Aug 28, 2008)

If it's not starting just spray a little carb cleaner in the carb throat with the choke open, and see if it'll kick over. If it doesn't start, or try to, then you have ignition or compression problems. If it starts but shuts off its fuel delivery problems, most likely the carb needs to be cleaned.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

rustyjames said:


> So, in cold weather it runs OK? If that's the condition I would suspect either a faulty ignition coil, or an engine valve that's warping when the engine gets hot.


That's right. Not a problem all winter.

Last year I do recall a starting problem when moisture came on.

Went out to start it today and it fired up without hesitation.

But before this, I removed the cap to check the gas. Maybe it's intermittant, such as the ignition coil or maybe its the gas cap. 

Local John Deer dealer has told me that the ignition either works or doesn't. But this may not be right.

How to test the ignition coil? Could moisture be temporarily causing a short?

The carb was rebuilt late last year.


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

low oil level shutoff?


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

doesn't have that feature


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

You mentioned new carb, is it a direct replacement and did you adjust the float? Replaced my Honda carb in my geny and had to adjust, just a thought. Did you check the peacock screen in the tank


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## rustyjames (Aug 28, 2008)

artinall said:


> That's right. Not a problem all winter.
> 
> Last year I do recall a starting problem when moisture came on.
> 
> ...


Not true with the coil with respect to it "works or it doesn't" been there done that, got the T shirt :laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Always gap a new plug. I bought a tractor cheap because the shop that serviced it put in the wrong plug with the wrong gap. A dirty spark plug insulator exterior can be humidity sensitive - having it clean and using dielectric grease is a good idea.

X2 on a number of things. Gas cap check for sure. If you were running it cold with the choke on OK that could be a dirty carb,etc. The last problem I had was condensation in the tank so I put drygas in it.

I keep starting fluid on hand as a fast check if there is a fuel delivery issue.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

festerized said:


> You mentioned new carb, is it a direct replacement and did you adjust the float? Replaced my Honda carb in my geny and had to adjust, just a thought. Did you check the peacock screen in the tank


 Rebuilt carb, they set to specs.

What is a peacock screen - in what tank?


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## Artworks (Dec 5, 2009)

Check fuel tank. may be getting water or you have bad / pluged pick up in the tank. It may have a screen or filter in the tank. My 320x had grass in it ( I'm 2nd owner) One of my 214's had blockage , I put air from the carb back through the line and its bin good ever since.


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

artinall said:


> Rebuilt carb, they set to specs.
> 
> What is a peacock screen - in what tank?


you have a lawn tractor? petcock lol
And no not all carbs are set from factory, floats can bend during shipping


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## rustyjames (Aug 28, 2008)

Another thing it could be, if ignition related, is sometimes mice will build a nest inside the engine shroud and chew on wires.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

Artworks said:


> Check fuel tank. may be getting water or you have bad / pluged pick up in the tank. It may have a screen or filter in the tank. My 320x had grass in it ( I'm 2nd owner) One of my 214's had blockage , I put air from the carb back through the line and its bin good ever since.


 Great suggestion. 



I'll also be picking up a new gas cap to rule that out. That's an extremely tiny orifice, could plug really easily.


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

If you futzed with the seat switch, & it checked out ok, you probably disturbed the contacts. Then the next time it worked.

I had a Bobcat Kawasaki engine walk behind that had multiple safety switches on the handlebars. One time it would start right up, the next time it wouldn't. Sometimes it simply wouldn't start. I ended up bypassing them, & it started right up every time afterward. The contacts get dirty, & corroded.
Joe


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Railman said:


> There is a relay on a lot of those for the seat. If it's not depressed by sitting on it, it won't complete the ignition circuit. *I bypassed my 318.*


That's about like pinning the guard on your circular saw.

A few years back, I bought a brand X rider, brand new. Ran a tank of gas through it, as it ran out it coughed and slung one of the blades clear through a rear tire. Obviously the store didn't tighten it well enough.

But the point is, with the seat switch bypassed, that could have been my ankle.


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

Tin,
I agree, & understand your point. The problem is, there are times when you need to run the machine without sitting in the seat. My Mustang skid steer has a seat switch, & an additional safety switch, which when switched, will allow you to let machine run without sitting in it. 

I've had a few scary incidents with my Allis B110 that needed the seat switch, but it didn't have one!
Joe


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

After snooping around a bit, it seems that there is a time delay module that is a pretty common problem, with similar symptoms, with the Kaw engine. 
:http://www.mytractorforum.com/gtsea...mytractorforum.com/index.php&ss=1080j408674j4
Joe


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

_*Solved*_ - after searching extensively, I now agree with *Railman*! 

Replaced the ignition relay (not the seat relay - believe this manages electric/spark and gas to some extent). The rider definitely starts as it should now, even when there has been heavy rain. Seems to run smoother. About $27

As you can see, the new part has been redesigned (left side) - the wires poured in a moisture tight seal into what looks like an epoxy base, where the gappy old one was pro-moisture. 

Since there isn't anything to grab onto this slick little cylinder, zip tied it onto the bar where the old one was.

If anyone else has to do this, beware of the black ground - stubborn to get off due to the design (held in by a inner and outer nut) - you're better off taking the ground elsewhere. So as not to damage the 2nd ground that's looped on behind on the same thread.

Have been trying to solve this for some time, and there is a growing history of J.D. dealers not replacing these, but rather working their way down pricey repair lists for owners. 

Sometimes you have to fight to get it right :boxing:

_Thanks Much for the helpful posts - helped get me there! Will no longer disable this piece of equipment that I have to use almost every day of the week. - Internet forums at their best, right here.

_


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

Sorry to report that i_t was _ running great for about the past 10 days until today.

Even though it starts fine (that part is solved) after running, it is now dying off like it used to - and I must push forward on the choke lever. 

_*To review:*_

- fuel lines replaced (forward of fuel filter)
- carb rebuilt last year
- fuel pump done roughly 2 years ago
- replaced vented gas cap
- replaced ignition relay
- plugs seem okay but I guess I cold replace


Beginning to run out of alternatives, but I guess I could try the seafoam or clean the line to the fuel tank. _Gotta figure out something because the grass is calling._


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

artinall said:


> and I must push forward on the choke lever.


So it begins to run lean? Maybe a temperature-dependent air leak?


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## Artworks (Dec 5, 2009)

take off gas line at the fuel pump from the tank and blow air back to to the tank , or see if fuel runs out first. Sounds like starving for fuel. And I would guess that you have blockage in the tank fuel pick up.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

GettingBy said:


> So it begins to run lean? Maybe a temperature-dependent air leak?


 Where might that be located?




Artworks said:


> take off gas line at the fuel pump from the tank and blow air back to to the tank , or see if fuel runs out first. Sounds like starving for fuel. And I would guess that you have blockage in the tank fuel pick up.


 Will try. (think you mean "at the fuel filter..back to tank?)


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

artinall said:


> Where might that be located?


Anywhere - you'd probably need to take everything apart to try to find this, and you may not find anything. Try for the fuel blockage first.

Also, the troubleshooting charts in the small engine repair books in the library can sometimes help.
And, you might ask the maker if there is a technical service bulletin on this problem.

One time a rental place counterperson correctly told me how to fix a problem with my leaf blower dying. It would only run at low speed and was due to a partially clogged orifice in a screw-in jet in the carburetor.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Lots of John Deere forums available also.


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## rustyjames (Aug 28, 2008)

^^^^ Good tip, could be a particular model quirk that others have experienced. Could even be the part you just replaced failed already.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

rustyjames said:


> ... Could even be the part you just replaced failed already.


 That did cross my mind. But I've no way to diagnose it.


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