# bad clients a regular thing?



## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

how often do you guys have problems with clients trying to get you to pay for all the materials? or trying to find a way not to pay something... my contract lists the items ill purchase as part of the project price, the estimates and contract usually for install only for most things, such as cabinets, sinks, all that stuff i leave up to the client and help em choose sizes. im coming to a close on this project and ive asked for a progress payment which was denied, he wants a finished job before i get paid. ok fine. kind of a red flag there, now hes asked for a lien release before i get paid.. major red flag. also, ive had to buy all the odds and ends (light fixtures, faucets, vanities, garbage disposals) he somehow thinks that its in the contract that im covering the cost of all that stuff. my last client pulled a change order scam on me, fortunately i have a 16 page contract she signed and saved all her emails requesting more work to be done. seems like my young age makes people think they can take advantage of me :\ any thoughts?


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

bryanad86 said:


> how often do you guys have problems with clients trying to get you to pay for all the materials? or trying to find a way not to pay something... my contract lists the items ill purchase as part of the project price, the estimates and contract usually for install only for most things, such as cabinets, sinks, all that stuff i leave up to the client and help em choose sizes. im coming to a close on this project and ive asked for a progress payment which was denied, he wants a finished job before i get paid. ok fine. kind of a red flag there, now hes asked for a lien release before i get paid.. major red flag. also, ive had to buy all the odds and ends (light fixtures, faucets, vanities, garbage disposals) he somehow thinks that its in the contract that im covering the cost of all that stuff. my last client pulled a change order scam on me, fortunately i have a 16 page contract she signed and saved all her emails requesting more work to be done. seems like my young age makes people think they can take advantage of me :\ any thoughts?



If a customer denies a progress payment and you continue to work he owns you.
never ever get behind the money. 
Under no circumstances should you sign a lien release before you are paid in full, and the check clears.


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## Shane O (Apr 4, 2014)

I get this all the time. 

Everyone wants something for free. 

"No free work" is my personal motto. I'll do the occasional labour trade, but I will not stomach someone who thinks they are entitled to it, or thinks they can broaden my scope of work to fit their needs. 

My foreman is a 62 yr old framer. He constantly gets asked questions from other parties about work and this and that. His answer always is "find Shane. He's the guy who looks like he's still in high school, he makes those decisions."

Don't let people walk on you because you look young. You'll get a reputation for being a push over. 

As far as being paid, I always say when despots arise. " was the work completed to your expectations? Was it myself or one of my guys who completed it? Sign the cheque."


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

What does your (16 page) contract say? In my world the client pays for ALL the materials they want installed, including such things such as caulk, tape, plastic, nails, etc. There's a line item in the contract listing 'Misc. Consumables'. And they won't give you a progress payment? You need a better contract. Mine's pretty rock-solid. If a client tries to give me a hard time over anything, I first (politely) tell them to refer to their _signed contract_ and if they continue I (politely) tell them my attorney will be happy to explain it to them. If you let them get away with a small thing, the next thing you know you'll be reno'ing their entire house for free. Document EVERYTHING and stand up for yourself. Just because you're young doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing. I know some outstanding carpenters in their 20's and some really crappy ones in their 50's.


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

66 Shelby said:


> What does your (16 page) contract say? In my world the client pays for ALL the materials they want installed, including such things such as caulk, tape, plastic, nails, etc. There's a line item in the contract listing 'Misc. Consumables'. And they won't give you a progress payment? You need a better contract. Mine's pretty rock-solid. If a client tries to give me a hard time over anything, I first (politely) tell them to refer to their _signed contract_ and if they continue I (politely) tell them my attorney will be happy to explain it to them. If you let them get away with a small thing, the next thing you know you'll be reno'ing their entire house for free. Document EVERYTHING and stand up for yourself. Just because you're young doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing. I know some outstanding carpenters in their 20's and some really crappy ones in their 50's.


my contract outlines pretty specifically all the progress payments, time to pay those progress payments, interest accrued if its not paid, owners responsibilities, contractors responsibilities... i just have a hard time being a hard ass with clients because i want em to be happy, my old boss (he taught me everything i know) had a fairly large client base, and has had his clients for years, always worked on a handshake and never a problem. maybe thats why he never branched out and got new clients, its nothing but a hassle. the work quality i do is up with the best, im confident in that. and to get this job i threw in new base trim for his entire town home, as long as he purchased the trim and had it on site, the installation would be free. now that the job is coming to a close theres some red flags being thrown up.

as for the materials part, my contract says installation of so and so items only. and if materials are covered i have that in there that i will purchase materials, my estimates almost always include the materials to build (thin set, drywall, tape, etc etc) in the estimate price as a lump sum. also if anything is furnished by my company it will be added onto the invoice and paid for by owner.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Thankfully, no, I don't have those problems & I'm sure you'll be surprised when I tell you this next thing. I don't have a 16 pg contract. Hell, I don't really even have a contract, just a paragraph at the bottom of my estimate that I occassionally get a signature on, but that's rare as well.

I do shake hands with my clients a lot when we agree on the scope of work & price. We have a 99.9% collection rate.


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

OK, now I'm confused. You say all that is detailed in your contract and they won't pay you in accordance with the _contract_? If that's the case, then there's a simple answer - Stop the work and wait on a payment. But it sounds like it too late because you told them you would finish it first and going back on your word is a big no-no in my book. You have to be firm (and polite) with people who are wanting freebies.


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

pinwheel said:


> Thankfully, no, I don't have those problems & I'm sure you'll be surprised when I tell you this next thing. I don't have a 16 pg contract. Hell, I don't really even have a contract, just a paragraph at the bottom of my estimate that I occassionally get a signature on, but that's rare as well.
> 
> I do shake hands with my clients a lot when we agree on the scope of work & price. We have a 99.9% collection rate.


i have a good friend thats in the hardwood flooring business and hes the best around that ive seen, he is just like you. i wish i could be like that but when i have so many different aspects of the job with so many details, i cant not have a contract with things outlined. im doing the flooring, concrete,drywall, electrical, plumbing, roofing finish carpentry, i do EVERYTHING in house, either me or my guys do it, if they cant do it i can do it. im starting to find out that with all the responsibility comes people try to pull one over on you.


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

66 Shelby said:


> OK, now I'm confused. You say all that is detailed in your contract and they won't pay you in accordance with the _contract_? If that's the case, then there's a simple answer - Stop the work and wait on a payment. But it sounds like it too late because you told them you would finish it first and going back on your word is a big no-no in my book. You have to be firm (and polite) with people who are wanting freebies.


its in my contract. i dont want to be the guy that has to go to my contract in order to get payment. perhaps im too trusting... as of today im submitting an application for progress payment for all work completed, and materials provided. per my contract he has 2 days to pay or work stops. i also have a clause that because i dont receive payment, its good cause for me to think he cant pay, in turn allows me to request a "proof of funds" document which must be provided before work is completed. i also have an owner caused delay clause, if the project is delayed for any reason due to owners own fault, im owned the full contract price by the finish date on the contract and i can complete the job in a reasonable amount of time on my own time. im pretty well covered, i just feel like an a hole having to resort to this to get money, makes me feel like i did something wrong :\


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

bryanad86 said:


> its in my contract. i dont want to be the guy that has to go to my contract in order to get payment. perhaps im too trusting... as of today im submitting an application for progress payment for all work completed, and materials provided. per my contract he has 2 days to pay or work stops. i also have a clause that because i dont receive payment, its good cause for me to think he cant pay, in turn allows me to request a "proof of funds" document which must be provided before work is completed. i also have an owner caused delay clause, if the project is delayed for any reason due to owners own fault, im owned the full contract price by the finish date on the contract and i can complete the job in a reasonable amount of time on my own time. im pretty well covered, i just feel like an a hole having to resort to this to get money, makes me feel like i did something wrong :\




You have to get over that feeling. 

He forced your hand not you


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

Stop work, review contract with her, hand her the up to date invoice.

If she balks, start packing tools, she ran out of money and is fixing to 
cheat you out of your do.

Give her an intent to lien letter, 
that will scare the dust out of her checkbook.


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## barry1219 (Oct 8, 2011)

This thread made me stop reading it and remember to bill some items I forgot about on another project. It involved a milestone/progress payment. Thanks.

Also, I used to work on commission in sales for ten years out of college. We had a saying "it is not a sale until you get paid". Words to live by. Signing a contract and doing a bunch of work without getting paid in timely segments is a recipe for a huge problem. Cease work while you still have leverage.
Good luck.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

Your contract must be confusing to a customer---

I keep mine simple---on a separate page from my 'scope of work' I have a list of 'customer is to provide' items---

Like Pin--I seldom have a formal signed contract --but I do have--
1. Scope of work (and I also mention what is not included -painting for instance)
2. customer is to supply
3. Payout schedule

Keep it simple and understandable---in 40 years I have had four no pays---make things clear---


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

one huge red flag this client threw up. he didnt read it when he signed it. handed me half the total amount up front and said alright man ill talk to you soon


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## libbycop (Dec 5, 2011)

jt wood said:


> *if a customer denies a progress payment and you continue to work he owns you.
> Never ever get behind the money.
> Under no circumstances should you sign a lien release before you are paid in full, and the check clears.*


bingo!!!!!!!!!


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## libbycop (Dec 5, 2011)

On a lot of jobs especially larger jobs- i do a client call routinely if i don't see them around a lot

My point is i try to stay in communication with them to avoid or at least see these things coming.

I make it real clear every step of the way whats needed from them which helps avoid these situations too


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

In 25 years I only had one bad paying customer. I knew it was coming so I started asking for payments in advance of me actually doing the work. If I don't get a draw during a job I stop on the project...simple. Usually when I ask for a draw I already have money and labor invested. It doesn't make sense to continue working without a draw.

Now there might be times I have to wait a few days for payment, but I trust my customers and I keep in daily contact with them.


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

the last two ive had were difficult. when i finally called attention to our contract with the last one, she agree dto pay me, so i when i went to collect the check she had bought MORE glass tile than what was installed and asked me to install it for her backsplash in her kitchen, her words were "i trust you, youll make it look good"

my response was "why did you make it so difficult for me to get paid" she turned around and walked away. -_-


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Is it legal for you to perform electrical and plumbing? The client may have decided long ago that you were working there illegally and would use it for leverage on payment.

Also, contracting like many things in life is a lot like poker. If someone calls, you gotta lay down your cards. If you got no cards to play, you lose the pot. 

And you never bluff.


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

yes im allowed to. ima licensed GC doing complete home reno's


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

This story would make a good horror movie----

I don't think it will end well-----------


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## PoleBarnsNY (Jan 18, 2014)

Pleeeeeeaaase LISTEN UP!

1. Screamers use belligerence, stubbornness and the walk away to try to frustrate you, get you to cave and chase them around. Don't do it. No concessions. Point back to the agreement. 

There is one effective way to deal with them and it is IN WRITING that they can read outside of your presence without what they believe is their needed theatrics and drama performance which is a see thru manipulation tactic. Writing often sobers up an idiot. It is neutral, unthreatening and states the reality better than being interrupted and cursed at does so you can't make your points without interruption or losing your thought track.

Make your points in writing instead of being interrupted and disrespected for his cooler head to consider outside the heat of an angry personal exchange.

2. Write a letter and send it certified mail return receipt requested stating "As I disappointed as I am that our cooperation has deteriorated badly, there is an acceptable method to resolve our disagreement without going to court. 

That is to honor the agreement that we both agreed to in writing. That agreement clearly requires a progress payment from you. It does not require me to complete the project without payment.

You are currently demanding a concession to the agreed contract terms that I am unwilling to agree to for very obvious reasons of added risk and a lack of trust on getting paid in full as agreed by you that I am unwilling to accept. 

In order to restore my confidence that you intend to follow thru on our agreement, I insist on payment as you agreed when we started. With your full payment for amount past due, I will be glad to offer you quotes on any additional work you want done to achieve your long term satisfaction with your project. 

I am requested that you strongly and carefully consider getting back on track with me to complete the project as agreed including honoring the payment terms as clearly written and signed by you. 

Your refusal to honor our agreement will leave me no choice but to cease all construction activities and take legal action against you to force compliance with our legally binding contract.

I prefer to avoid the time, hassle and expense of legal action as any reasonable person would. I hope you prefer to avoid a legal hassle as well since a cordial resolution offers more satisfaction for both of us than our differences being out of both of our hands when the legal system takes over. 

If you wish to discuss the matter calmly, I will respectfully offer you one additional opportunity to discuss the matter with me calmly in person over a friendly coffee or lunch at a place of your choosing. At the conclusion of that discussion I will expect full payment due to date in order to continue the project. 

If that discussion deteriorates into any further belligerence, disrespect or abuse from you, I will have no choice but to end the discussion and take legal action to the fullest extent available to enforce full payment as agreed. 

Please let me know how you wish to proceed by ___. If I do not hear from you by ___ I will assume you have rejected my respectful offer and prefer to let the legal system resolve our disagreement. With that choice, I will take the necessary legal steps to force payment in full.

Sincerely, 

Blankety blank

3. This letter is a paper trail that you can present to the court to convey your willingness and interest in resolving the matter calmly, fairly and respectfully that he declined. 

The certified letter is also an indicator you mean business, will take necessary precautions and his belligerence will not deter you from collecting one way or another.

4. Please stop agreeing to concessions that require his integrity to make you whole such as doing more work without payment or deposit

Good luck


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

GTX63 said:


> Workmanship is one thing, meaning yes, if it is hack work then redo it.
> If he thinks his money bought time and control, then the sooner you put your foot on his neck the better. You need to be working from a point of leverage. Right now he seems to think he has all the power in his wallet.
> Sorry it had to come to this.


absolutely, i hired a tile guy with 30 years experience and i walked in half way through the day and told him to re do parts of it, when he didnt i ripped it out and told him to leave, i did the tile the next day


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

i also didnt charge my client a dime for this.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

bryanad86 said:


> i also didnt charge my client a dime for this.


My big problem with this whole mess is you keep saying you had to do things like buy vanities and u choose to change light fixtures.

You didn't have to do any of that, you elected to do it. 

To me it sounds like you did a lot of free work out of good will and now want to be paid for it. If your tile guy cant lay tile worth a damn and you did it again should the customer have to pay extra because you picked the wrong person for the job?


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

SectorSecurity said:


> My big problem with this whole mess is you keep saying you had to do things like buy vanities and u choose to change light fixtures.
> 
> You didn't have to do any of that, you elected to do it.
> 
> To me it sounds like you did a lot of free work out of good will and now want to be paid for it. If your tile guy cant lay tile worth a damn and you did it again should the customer have to pay extra because you picked the wrong person for the job?



i did extra work out of good will. none of which is being charged to the client. and the client isnt paying to have the tile re done. we had an agreement that he buy the vanities and materials of that nature, which he agrees too, but now doesnt want to pay for the work completed in the outlined contract. he wants the bathroom gutted to remove the roll in the walls, pre existing walls i did not touch, and was not in the contract.

please read the other posts before slamming me on the board.


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

UPDATE: he sent me an invoice saying i owe him money, and is not paying a dime. Polebarns, i took your msg and sent it to him i thought it was pretty good, apparently he didnt go for it, now think i owe him money for an incomplete project. what are my options?


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

also, hes saying that my lack of cooperating is my written notice of seperation from the contract. wtf?!?!


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

You should've sent what pole arm wrote certified mail.

All you need to do at this point is respond with "I have no other options other than to file a lien on the property and contact my attorney. Any further communication at this point will need to be through (laywers name)."


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Sounds like you are in a pickle. 

Call your attorney.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I do just fine with a quote, a handshake and a simple pay as you go agreement. I dont get too far ahead of anyone and they dont get to far ahead of me.


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

attorney is making the call tomorrow, friends are a good thing.


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## Shane O (Apr 4, 2014)

bryanad86 said:


> also, hes saying that my lack of cooperating is my written notice of seperation from the contract. wtf?!?!


As far as I can see, he is not co operating. 

Lien his property, itemize your "freebies" down to the penny, just to show how much YOU have invested in HIS project. 

Smells like no money left. 

Force his lawyer to put your funds in trust, and tell him he is on the hook for the legal fees. 

Notify the city that you are canceling your permit ( if applied for, you do have a permit right?) until legal issues are sorted out. 

I feel for you.


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

JBM said:


> I do just fine with a quote, a handshake and a simple pay as you go agreement. I dont get too far ahead of anyone and they dont get to far ahead of me.


do you live in LA?  i work in the OC a lot as well, never have a problem at all, jobs go smoothly and noone ever has a problem paying. work in LA, sheesh.


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## PoleBarnsNY (Jan 18, 2014)

I am smelling out of money, drug abuse, bipolar nut bar or some other insurmountable. You can never reason with a total idiot. Your customer is delusional or evil or both. 

Only option left is lawyer up. In NY there is a rule about the timing of lien filing. I think the deadline is 45 days. I am not sure though. Make sure you check that out in your state.

Step one usually is a lien and a simultaneous demand letter outlining what you are seeking if he wishes to avoid litigation. This is a step taken to try and avoid the expense of litigation for both parties and to notify the customer that you have lawyered up and intend to pursue legal action if not settled cordially.

Unfortunately nut bars ALWAYS think they have a case. They do not realize 50% of attorneys always lose. The losers always think they will win. 

Not good. 

Not wanting to kick you when down but you made some very obvious mistakes that many of us want to be sure you didn't miss for the next one. 

I would ask your attorney about notifying code enforcement of the disagreement and if it is wise to have the permit revoked. 

Also take whatever steps you need to protect your license from lunatic complaints from him.

Last steps are 

1. figure out what you need to do to keep things moving working capital wise on a new project
2. move on and let your attorney work at it while you go do big things somewhere else
3. Don't let anger or patience eat at you or create an ulcer
4. Don't let this moron own a piece of real estate in your head. Get your head right about it so you are still 100% with your morale

5. Be sure to discuss with your attorney in the demand letter if it is prudent to offer some sort of payment arrangement in case your customer is out of money you have a shot at collecting over time if he has income. 

If the customer accepts a payment plan agreement, have your attorney turn it into a secured note if possible. These can be sometimes be sold for a discount to investors and you can recover about half. 

I have had a former collector from the IRS that has a collection business arrange to have the sheriff's repossess a deadbeat tenants car to collect a portion of a back rent judgment. That got their attention and they paid up promptly after that.

Good luck


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

550' of molding free? What on earth? Thats a ****load of molding.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

This is one of those times I would like to hear the other side of the story. We get little fragments here and there, but I am sure there is a WHOLE LOT MORE.


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

the other side of the story is this: today the client emailed my girlfriend with a harassing email. also posted bad reviews on my yelp page, along with his friends that ive never worked for. also contacted former clients that left positive reviews. come to find out today, he is not the property owner. i received two emails at 1 AM this morning from him with belligerent things.

ive contacted my lawyer and shes called in a specialist for construction law. looks like were suing for defamation, fraud, slander, and breach of contract.

and dont ask me how he got her email address, im searching through to see if i sent a mass email or something.


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## bryanad86 (Apr 3, 2014)

after this he wanted me to finish the work, or things will stay as is.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

Bryan, you have wandered into the Twilight Zone with this this fellow---

Let your lawyers handle everything from here on out.

Do not have any contact with this fellow----

Lick your wounds and move on-------Mike-----


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