# Covering live wires.



## highlevel (Aug 30, 2011)

To any/all electricians/electrical contractors out here.

I have been around the trades a while. I have done plenty of electrical work myself and have worked with several electrical contractors. 

Recently I was asked by a client to cover (plaster over) some old boxes that were 2/3 up the wall for sconces. The owner was told that the wires were "dead" by and electrical contractor she had hired previous to my working on the dwelling. They did her main service upgrade and ran a few cables needed immediately after the place was purchased (by my client). Work I would have done had I been available.

I checked the wires and they were live. I told my client I am not plastering over live wires. She contacted the electrical contractor and he said this was fine because they are not in a junction box but in an "end of the line" box.

In all my years I have never heard of such a thing. Have I been misinformed? Is it really accepted practice to permanently conceal/cover live wires?


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## Redliz75 (Jun 23, 2011)

highlevel said:


> To any/all electricians/electrical contractors out here.
> 
> I have been around the trades a while. I have done plenty of electrical work myself and have worked with several electrical contractors.
> 
> ...


Sweetie, I'm too tired to look up the code references, but technically that is not a violation of the NEC if there are no splices in the box. It is not a good practice, IMO.

Is there attic space above the sconce boxes?

Were they wired as switch legs?


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## Redliz75 (Jun 23, 2011)

BTW, there is not an article that states the practice is permissible. There is just nothing prohibiting it. If someone thinks I'm wrong, prove it and give me the article and section no.


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## highlevel (Aug 30, 2011)

Redliz75 said:


> Sweetie, I'm too tired to look up the code references, but technically that is not a violation of the NEC if there are no splices in the box. It is not a good practice, IMO.
> 
> Is there attic space above the sconce boxes?
> 
> Were they wired as switch legs?


You're sweet on me already? :laughing:

Thanks for the quick response!

The wires are knob and tube, no attic (flat roof) space otherwise I would have no problem capping them off myself and terminating them in another box. I didn't want to rip into walls (plaster) as the final painting is happening this week.

The client has already decided to go with new wall sconces. At this point I am just interested for my own edification. I am old enough to know how little I know.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Only splices are required by the NEC to be in a box. If they're just the ends of a circuit, there is no access requirement.

But a competent electrician should be willing to trace them down and disconnect them at their source.


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## Joe_the_Pro (Aug 9, 2011)

480sparky said:


> a competent electrician should be willing to trace them down and disconnect them at their source.


This is the truth. Troubleshooting something like this later (especially knob and tube) is such a PITA.


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## highlevel (Aug 30, 2011)

So... code wise it is acceptable but in reality it is not a good idea?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

highlevel said:


> So... code wise it is acceptable but in reality it is not a good idea?



Yepper!


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Whether code or not i prefer to leave the box accessible if i can. I have talked customers into hanging a pic over the box with a blank cover, i have sometimes put a smoke detector over it or just leave a blank cover. I can think of only once where the GC and HO insisted on burying the box, i disconnected power to the box, it was the only wire in the box and i wire nutted all wires, taped them separately and together and wrote on the back of the box with marker of what it was originally for.


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## highlevel (Aug 30, 2011)

woodchuck2 said:


> Whether code or not i prefer to leave the box accessible if i can.


That is exactly how I feel.


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## SemiRetiredEL (Nov 24, 2009)

I suppose everyone has looked at Art 300.15 which states a box is required at each splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, termination point or pull point etc.

Art 110.14 (B) *Splices* ..speaks of the need to insulate free ends of conductors. 

But, if you don't call tape or a wire nut on the end of a free conductor a splice I suppose you can just leave the romex dangling in the wall, no box required! Just don't wirenut and inch of wire to the end of it (then you would have a splice!).

And, if you have a splice it must go in a box and if you have a box it must be accessibile, per Art 314.29.

So what we need now is a test case. Would someone please leave a piece of live romex in a wall and call for an inspection, I would love to hear the answer:whistling

Good Luck from Columbiana, Alabama
Maurice Turgeon, http://thesemiretiredelectrician.com


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

I've left live K&T in the walls because the splice that feeds it is buried (no box).

Not my preferred method, but it's legal.


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## SemiRetiredEL (Nov 24, 2009)

True that was legal because Art 300.15 only requires boxes for AC,MC,MI,Romex, but not the way I like to do business either.

Good Luck from Columbiana, Alabama
Maurice Turgeon, http://thesemiretiredelectrician.com


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## highlevel (Aug 30, 2011)

SemiRetiredEL said:


> I suppose everyone has looked at Art 300.15 which states a box is required at each splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, termination point or pull point etc.
> 
> Art 110.14 (B) *Splices* ..speaks of the need to insulate free ends of conductors.
> 
> ...


Good... I've completed that test case! 

I ran "dead" wires in a few places in a plumbing wall from a sub panel for possible future use... for motion sensor fixtures. I didn't want to spend the time installing rough in boxes in precise locations for all the fixtures in this public bathroom. Especially since who knows when (of if) they would ever get installed. The inspector said " :no: no way, those wires must be terminated in boxes that are accessible. So, I did not pass my inspection!

I installed boxes and covered them in the "normal" fashion and everything went fine. :thumbup:

Oh, I see you stated "live", I missed that. So this test case has no bearing on the subject. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

I routinely leave NM coiled up in walls, such as above vanities, since the HO never knows during rough-in what they're having for mirror/medicine cabinet, let alone lights.


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## highlevel (Aug 30, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I routinely leave NM coiled up in walls, such as above vanities, since the HO never knows during rough-in what they're having for mirror/medicine cabinet, let alone lights.


And your inspector signs off on that?

I suppose they could always come back at final and say "where is the light"?

Typically that NM cable will be run out through the drywall. That gets done for under-cabinet lights and oven hoods as well. Yes?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

highlevel said:


> And your inspector signs off on that?


Absoloopy. Inspectors here are typically ex-field electricians. They've been there, done that, and actually read the Codebook.



highlevel said:


> I suppose they could always come back at final and say "where is the light"?


The light(s) is/are installed at trim, depending on where the mirror/ med cab ends up.


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## highlevel (Aug 30, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Absoloopy. Inspectors here are typically ex-field electricians. They've been there, done that, and actually read the Codebook.
> 
> 
> 
> The light(s) is/are installed at trim, depending on where the mirror/ med cab ends up.


Yes, we have an inspector who was an electrician, but now he thinks he's a plan checker. :whistling:

He's not bad unless you are the architect that has to deal with him.:laughing:


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