# Things that seem to be disappearing



## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

The inspiration for this thread came from over at decks and fencing when talking about Drills and augers and how I'd recognized people use their cordless drills for heavy duty drilling instead of using a real drill. Here are a few other things I see disappearing in the age of what I like to call the "Home Depot cordless screw gun contractor" 

#1 Hand drive nails....just simply outdated or are they? Is it no one knows how to drive them by hand? I've seen deck framers actually frame their decks w/screws. 

#2 Framing squares and the ability to read "the numbers on them".....With the proliferation of trusses you might have to do a little overframing in hips and valleys....ah just tape em for the measurement....soffitt will cover any mistakes 

#3 Plumb Bobs, water levels......lazers changed this. For long distances I still maintain water level is the most accurate 

#4 Combination square...replaced by speed square...at least this one doesn't poke you in the leg all day long 

#5 Lumber grading that makes sense....Don't stamp it #1 if it has knots as big as my knee 

#6 Carpenters that are true Carpenters and not just one trick ponies 

I could go on, so much has changed, I just don't want to completely change with it. If it sounds like a lament it's because it is. Feel free to add more. I already know a lot of the old timers on here, so I expect to hear from them


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## blackbear (Feb 29, 2008)

Irish cant agree more. Lots of new generation guys get shafted bc most people are specializing. When I started out we built the whole house concrete to trim. (Minus plumbing and electric) 
We never framed with trusses. All hand cut.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Sometimes, things come along that just make our jobs easier and more accurate.

I can't imagine either a plumber or an electrician would trade their reciprocating saw or right angle drill in for an older method.

If I've got only a few nails to drive, it's hammer time. When framing a basement, the toys are worth setting up.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

Sad but true---So many younger guys have no clue about door hanging----or even own a good set of chisels---


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

I've only been working in carpentry/trades for 4 years or so and I never grew up around anyone who knew how to use tools. I do my best to learn the original methods and tools before grabbing the newest and most efficient ones. This doesn't always make sense but without knowing the roots of a method or practice, its hard to have confidence running the modern shortcut.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I still hand bang some times. I was doing it yesterday putting blocking in the deck we are doing. One of my laborers came over and goes "you know the nailer is right here" I was like I know and he gave me a funny look. I should race him some day. Me hand bang, him gun, would be fun


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

How about a good cross cut or rip saw, just don't see them used much anymore. Yankee screwdriver, when is the last time saw one around, let alone being used?


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

I agree completely. 

I hand banged (wow that sounds dirty) a shed a few weeks ago, and it was great! I'd rather hear the *ping* of a framing hammer than a compressor any day.

Without going through it all, the older tools may take longer, but I think that's the beauty of being a craftsman. It takes a bit longer, but the end result is better. 

As far as the one trick ponies, I think that's a result of our push towards specialization and speed. The people at the top would rather have a few guys who are good at drywall, and a few guys who are good at framing, and a few guys who are good at trim, and possibly have to hire multiple crews for this, than have a few guys who can do it all. 

I think this is also what drives the wages down. A guy who can only do one thing is cheaper than a guy who is good at all aspects of the trade. It may be cheaper to use specialty trades in the long run, but it really diminishes what the trade is capable of as a whole. 

I just did a scaffold job and a sheet went around to clarify who was a carpenter and a laborer. The one guy said he wouldn't call himself a carpenter, more of a "pin banger". Granted, he was good at what he did, but I think he'd be lost if you put some base trim in front of him. It's sad.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

rselectric1 said:


> Sometimes, things come along that just make our jobs easier and more accurate.
> 
> I can't imagine either a plumber or an electrician would trade their reciprocating saw or right angle drill in for an older method.
> 
> If I've got only a few nails to drive, it's hammer time. When framing a basement, the toys are worth setting up.


Those things are a given and certainly acceptable by my standards. What I have a problem with is seeing someone chuck a 4 1/2" hole saw into a cordless drill and burn through 2 batteries to get a hole through a tuff 2x


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Randy Bush said:


> How about a good cross cut or rip saw, just don't see them used much anymore. Yankee screwdriver, when is the last time saw one around, let alone being used?


Yankees were the chit for adjusting bi fold doors


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

I definitely see so many people unwilling to plug in a high torque drill and instead blow out 18v guns that struggle through material.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> Those things are a given and certainly acceptable by my standards. What I have a problem with is seeing someone chuck a 4 1/2" hole saw into a cordless drill and burn through 2 batteries to get a hole through a tuff 2x


If opening 4 1/2" holes is something that a trade does often, then they obviously should have a corded tool and if they don't then they are just...well either cheap or stupid.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

Not many carpenters left I am only 40 but I find I am the old Guy one site. I am the one with the tricks up my sleeves even. When I am wearing short sleeves


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

mikeswoods said:


> Sad but true---So many younger guys have no clue about door hanging----or even own a good set of chisels---


Yep. That's a good one. I get called upon every now and then to replace wood slabs in metal frames. Few have the accuracy, the know how, or the tools.


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

Randy Bush said:


> How about a good cross cut or rip saw, just don't see them used much anymore. Yankee screwdriver, when is the last time saw one around, let alone being used?


I carry a yankee in my box. I am only 24 years old, but they can be invaluable for doing commercial door hardware if you dont have a cordless on the job


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

ubcguy89 said:


> I carry a yankee in my box. I am only 24 years old, but they can be invaluable for doing commercial door hardware if you dont have a cordless on the job


Where can one find a Yankee screwdriver these days?


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Hand banging framing always draws the joints up tighter.. I still give it a tap sometimes after shooting a wall together


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

Irishslave said:


> The inspiration for this thread came from over at decks and fencing when talking about Drills and augers and how I'd recognized people use their cordless drills for heavy duty drilling instead of using a real drill. Here are a few other things I see disappearing in the age of what I like to call the "Home Depot cordless screw gun contractor"
> 
> #1 Hand drive nails....just simply outdated or are they? Is it no one knows how to drive them by hand? I've seen deck framers actually frame their decks w/screws.
> 
> ...


I am 24 I can cut rafters, build stairs, hand nail, make my own water level, I use combo squares every now and then. I know how to profeciently read a framing square. I thank my unions training center for all this, but I would have forgot most of it, since I am in commercial construction, but I went the extra mile to learn it. They taught rafters. I went out and found a side job framing an attached garage shortly after. Guess what I can cut my own rafters. They taught me stairs I went and built a few more on the weekends for people. I am not the best at everything, but I knew this was going to be my career, and I made it a promise to myself that I was going to be the best that I can be in all aspects of my trade. I was going to learn as much as possible and go as far as I can possibly go. Well I run work now for a commercial contractor now and I will tell you if I had a laser on the job and some guy was using a water level and a 2'er for ceilings his layoff check would be here that afternoon. With that being said I still use plumb bobs for door jambs. But it comes down to time and time is money. and the more money I make my contractor the more likely I am to stay working


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

One of my first looks into conventional framing was this video I found at the library with a framer named Larry Haun. This guy moved faster with a hammer than most guys I see shooting guns. I think he died a few years ago but this guy made me want to hand nail everything. Very efficient carpenter.


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

dielectricunion said:


> Very efficient carpenter.


That WAS the name of his book. How apropos.


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

How about sharpening a chainsaw?. A lot of procedures are going away as well. I know a guy who spent hours getting his tractor running and attaching his post hole auger to it in order to drill one hole for a mailbox.

Reminds me of the guys who string out a cord to cut a 2x4 and lug out the circular saw. I try to keep a handsaw behind the seat of the truck and in the trunk of my car.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

ubcguy89 said:


> I am 24 I can cut rafters, build stairs, hand nail, make my own water level, I use combo squares every now and then. I know how to profeciently read a framing square. I thank my unions training center for all this, but I would have forgot most of it, since I am in commercial construction, but I went the extra mile to learn it. They taught rafters. I went out and found a side job framing an attached garage shortly after. Guess what I can cut my own rafters. They taught me stairs I went and built a few more on the weekends for people. I am not the best at everything, but I knew this was going to be my career, and I made it a promise to myself that I was going to be the best that I can be in all aspects of my trade. I was going to learn as much as possible and go as far as I can possibly go. Well I run work now for a commercial contractor now and I will tell you if I had a laser on the job and some guy was using a water level and a 2'er for ceilings his layoff check would be here that afternoon. With that being said I still use plumb bobs for door jambs. But it comes down to time and time is money. and the more money I make my contractor the more likely I am to stay working


Congratulations then you are well on your way to being an indispensable individual instead of a hack. Don't be shocked though in your journey when you run across some of the things I have described. I applaud your willingness to learn, this is what I find absent so often in young people today


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## Elyrain (Dec 17, 2007)

Truth be told, it's not the tradesman's fault. It's the contractors that sub most things out. True well rounded journeymen were just about doomed as soon as we figured out that an assembly line is an efficient way to do things.

First thing I ask a carpenter is if they know how to hand cut a roof. I don't think I've met one under 50 years old that does.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

I'm looking for Griz to chime in here. If it's anybody that's seen the changes over the years, it's him


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

dielectricunion said:


> Larry Haun. This guy moved faster with a hammer than most guys I see shooting guns. but this guy made me want to hand nail everything. Very efficient carpenter.


Not a carpenter if your not efficient. That is really the only thing that sets a carpenter apart from a talented DIY'r with all the toys.

How many around here have hand nailed entire houses, or trimmed a house without routers and nails guns? 

LOL Nothing quite like spending a few days hand nailing deck, wall and roof sheeting. Good times, good times - those where the days the bar made extra cash on me. Learn the real meaning of faster you move, faster the job gets done...and you really want to get it done, like yesterday LOL


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## schaefercs (Jul 10, 2008)

My boss on my first framing crew believed that you should know how to swing a hammer before you learn to use a nail gun. Plus he hated the sound of a gas air compressor running all day. We spent that whole summer hand banging 12,000sf+ houses.


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

Irishslave said:


> Congratulations then you are well on your way to being an indispensable individual instead of a hack. Don't be shocked though in your journey when you run across some of the things I have described. I applaud your willingness to learn, this is what I find absent so often in young people today


Thanks, I have been running work for a little over a year now. I cant believe how many apprentices I have had to layoff because of the lack of work ethic, really didnt care to learn the trade, and catching them on the cell phone one to many times. Its sad, because most of the guys are kids just out of HS and I try and warn them, but some just dont get it. The cell phone thing, I actually had a 1st year apprentice say to me well your one the phone all the time! Yea with my office calling in time, asking for more guys, trying to send guys to other jobs, ordering materials, calling the architect, etc. My dad taught me hard work, I just thought everyone was like that. Turns out its few and far between


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

cleveman said:


> reminds me of the guys who string out a cord to cut a 2x4 and lug out the circular saw. I try to keep a handsaw behind the seat of the truck and in the trunk of my car.


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

JR Shepstone said:


> Where can one find a Yankee screwdriver these days?


I actually just picked one up at my local sears. Its pretty decent quality and even made in Germany. 

http://www.sears.com/schroder-yanke...p-00931516000P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2

Dave


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

jlsconstruction said:


> View attachment 99646


Are they making these any better? I had one of the PC 19.2 v ones about 10 years ago. It had it's convenience, but didn't last long and now I can't get a new charger or batteries for it.....obsolete....the kit w/charger and 2 batteries at the time was 300 bucks


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

A good sharp handsaw can cut a 2x pretty damn quick if you know how to use it right. 

I'm 50 years old, I got my start in 1984. I worked for a commercial GC. When I wasn't in a footing tying rebar I was in the mud pushing a shovel or screed rod. So when I got to wear my bags it was like a vacation. I had to EARN the privilege to learn how to frame. Back then most started from the bottom and learned the whole enchilada. Now days its not uncommon to find a guy that has only done sheathing. Or only stacks, or just does hardware.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

> A good sharp handsaw can cut a 2x pretty damn quick if you know how to use it right.


 I collect the old ones, the quality of the steel is amazing, just can't be found anymore


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Irishslave said:


> I collect the old ones, the quality of the steel is amazing, just can't be found anymore


My father is 90 years old and was a contractor. I recently got a bunch of his old tools, which came with some very old handsaws. 

I used to do a lot of form-setting and handsaws were all we used. Simply because there was no power on the job.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> My father is 90 years old and was a contractor. I recently got a bunch of his old tools, which came with some very old handsaws.
> 
> I used to do a lot of form-setting and handsaws were all we used. Simply because there was no power on the job.


No power on the job today means.......head for the truck...day off....generator is 50 miles away... 

If it ain't easy these days.....it ain't happenin 

You definitely earned your money back then and it still happens a few places today where people actually WORK, but more and more what I see makes me hope I don't have to call somebody for a new roof when I'm 70 years old


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Irishslave said:


> No power on the job today means.......head for the truck...day off....generator is 50 miles away...
> 
> If it ain't easy these days.....it ain't happenin
> 
> You definitely earned your money back then and it still happens a few places today where people actually WORK, but more and more what I see makes me hope I don't have to call somebody for a new roof when I'm 70 years old


I know exactly what you mean and I have a huge problem with that. Just think about it. When we are 80 or 90 years old these kids today are going to be the very people we will be relying on to fix, build and work on our chit, let alone changing our bedpan.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Basic problem solving ability. If it weren't for velcro shoes, some people who call themselves general contractors couldn't make it out of the house in the morning.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Basic problem solving ability. If it weren't for velcro shoes, some people who call themselves general contractors couldn't make it out of the house in the morning.


:clap: Do they still make those? I hope so for the "less motivated:.

The things that are "appearing" are a bunch of zombies on the site who are inseparable from their cell phones.


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## Frank Castle (Dec 27, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> I know exactly what you mean and I have a huge problem with that. Just think about it. When we are 80 or 90 years old *these kids today are going to be the very people we will be relying* on to fix, build and work on our chit, let alone changing our bedpan.


Don't count on it!


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Irishslave said:


> now I can't get a new charger or batteries for it


I get battery packs rebuilt - there are a couple places that will do this. Doesn't do much good without a charger.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Taking care of your tools. If you were a carpenter you brought your own hand tools (including chisels and hand saws). If you didn't keep them sharpened and clean you had problems. People who earned their living with it took care of it.

I've actually seen an experienced guy burn up a sawzall - it wasn't cutting fast enough to suit him, so he just kept pushing harder. And this with a 10 pack of blades not 40 feet from him.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

cleveman said:


> I know a guy who spent hours getting his tractor running and attaching his post hole auger to it in order to drill one hole for a mailbox.


He probably never developed the skills. Linemen who hand dug holes for those big wooden poles could really get at it with a spoon. I've done a boat load of landscape work with cutting mattock and other hand tools, also a skill.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

This one has already disappeared - making your own handles. They effect how you swing, how accurate you are, how much stress is put on your arm, how many nails you bend, etc.

There is a reason why pro ball players have custom bats:whistling


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Irishslave said:


> Are they making these any better? I had one of the PC 19.2 v ones about 10 years ago. It had it's convenience, but didn't last long and now I can't get a new charger or batteries for it.....obsolete....the kit w/charger and 2 batteries at the time was 300 bucks


It actually isn't bad.


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## Andrew6127 (Aug 14, 2012)

Irishslave said:


> Congratulations then you are well on your way to being an indispensable individual instead of a hack. Don't be shocked though in your journey when you run across some of the things I have described. I applaud your willingness to learn, this is what I find absent so often in young people today


You know there are some guys that want to learn but very few want show anyone **** these days. 

When I first started out couple years ago I had a hard time trying to find anyone to teach me anything. Most people want an assembler and nothing more. 

You can keep a guy like that from becoming skilled and worth more money.....what new guy wants to walk into a dead end?

Sadly last month I had to walk away from working as a carpenter and go back into logistics to provide for my family. 

God I hate logistics.......


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

If I ever get to the point of actually being able to hire a kid I will try to correct what I feel was a mistake in my training.
Homeboy doesn't get to touch a nailgun or a chop box until he knows how to use a hammer and a mitre box.
If you're handed a nailgun without knowing how to hammer a nail, you have no idea about what angle is required to set your nail, what a nailing pattern is, etc. My old boss was good about teaching me proper technique with everything, but sadly production dictated that we use air all the time so I cut a lot of corners with being trained that it would have been nice if I hadn't.

I guess what I'm saying is, while some things do become obsolete, I agree with Irish's original post that everything is being done now largely with the wrong tools. I can't imagine trying to install a prehung door or crown moulding without hand nails. 
How many times have you gone to a job to do a repair and found most of the trim in the house had nails fired right into drywall with most missing the studs completely?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

I completely understand the hesitance and the pride respectively.

How many of you can use ONLY a framing square, and pencil/paper to figure out the running length of a common rafter with only a rise, run, and span? (most simple rafter to figure)

I can, but I also cheat and use a calculator. Nowadays there are apps to do all that for you.

Many of you guys over 40 or so might remember going into McDonalds as a kid, and the girls behind the counter had a pencil and pad. They remembered all the prices and added them up long hand for your total...and they did it quickly.

Now, they push a couple buttons and enter the tendered amount. Some of them even have pictures for the currency.

I always wondered what would happen if the computers went down.

If you truly want to stump a typical cashier that isn't an old fart, do something like this AFTER they enter the amount tendered so they have to figure it out....

Charge is $14.55 Hand them a twenty and a nickel.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Handbooks on carpentry. Carpenters used to actually have them handy.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Some people care, some don't. Some want to learn, some don't. That goes for everything in life.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

rselectric1 said:


> I completely understand the hesitance and the pride respectively.
> 
> How many of you can use ONLY a framing square, and pencil/paper to figure out the running length of a common rafter with only a rise, run, and span? (most simple rafter to figure)
> 
> ...


I do, unless it's an easy one, then it's in my quick guide for roof layout. I usually cheat and use a calculator. Back in college we had to do it on paper about a thousand times in our 3 week roof framing class. Kinda drilled it into my head. 

Even though I'm still in my 20s I was blessed to work for an old school carpenter ( Leo reminds me of him) who is a 3rd generation carpenter. So I learned a lot of old school ways to do things, then mixed them with modern day techniques.


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## Chad McDade (Oct 14, 2012)

There have been several generations of carpenter in my family, I have, and occasionally use, handsaws that my great grandfather used to hand cut houses, wagons, furniture, etc. My dad and grandfather taught me how to use a faming square, handsaw, planes (block, rabbit, router, etc), string lines, chisels and how to take care of and sharpen them. I know how to cut rafters or crown with a handsaw but I also know how to set trusses and use a miter saw. 

I do my part to try and pass these skills on to the few young guys who are interested in carpentry, but try to convince an 18 year old that a 90 year old handsaw that requires skill, finesse, and practice has merits over his cordless circular saw.


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

In the carpentry apprenticeship program up here you aren't allowed to touch any power tools for the first month. They require you to know what the different planes are, how they're used, and what each component is. Same for a bunch of other older hand tools there. It makes you appreciate modern tools and surprisingly appreciate what these old tools are still capable of. 

My family isn't a trade family. I'm not a second, third, or whatever generation carpenter. What I've learned I've had to figure out for myself. Carpentry wasn't a part of growing up. Having said that I sure like talking to some of the older carpenters that were raised around their trade. A lifetime of experience and a wealth of knowledge like that is worth the time to listen to.


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

Hand nailing a whole house was work but it was fun way back before emglo compressors and nail guns hit the scene


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

Easy Gibson said:


> If I ever get to the point of actually being able to hire a kid I will try to correct what I feel was a mistake in my training.
> Homeboy doesn't get to touch a nailgun or a chop box until he knows how to use a hammer and a mitre box.
> If you're handed a nailgun without knowing how to hammer a nail, you have no idea about what angle is required to set your nail, what a nailing pattern is, etc. My old boss was good about teaching me proper technique with everything, but sadly production dictated that we use air all the time so I cut a lot of corners with being trained that it would have been nice if I hadn't.
> 
> ...



I agree with you about teaching the proper techniques, but unfortunatly time is money, and in order to compete you need to use your power tools and air tools. 

On my jobs doing commercial interiors, I start 1st year apprentices out insulating, full ceiling tiles, cleaning stocking material cutting studs, and screwing off drywall. That is generally what happens, the few that work really hard and make it past the layoff, they get to come with me to the next job, and I try and teach them a little about layout, a little about casework, maybe assist me in hanging doors, you get the picture. I emphasise speed on my journeyman and older apprentices, on my young guys I always like them to slow down, think things through, and preach to them that speed will come. You can only screw up so many $20 ceiling tiles until I gotta get another guy to do it. I encourage them to visualise whatever they are doing as a finished product.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Easy Gibson said:


> How many times have you gone to a job to do a repair and found most of the trim in the house had nails fired right into drywall with most missing the studs completely?


Removed 600' of base a couple yrs ago. Every stud had a pair of spiral shank #6 trim nails. one above the other. on every stud. hand driven. What a *****.

We were saving all of it to reuse. What a pain getting it off. Then the owner decided to put all new base on. :blink:


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

A-1 INTERIORS said:


> Hand nailing a whole house was work but it was fun way back before emglo compressors and nail guns hit the scene


 I gotta say, I still think back to the sound of 5 guys swinging hammers on a frame. 

It was a beautiful kind of music. 

Something like tap,set,BOOM...tap,set, BOOM...tap,set,BOOM (add a "ping" if somebody swung an Estwing). 

Back then our hammers were everything. How heavy? Hickory handle? Waffle or smooth? Duct tape for extended one-hand nail setting and handle protection.
And the hammer tricks.....single flip-to-hammer holster, tomahawk throw into header........those were the days!

No turning back now. Ballistic screws and such.


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## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

the tools make most carpenter today with out the tools today a lot of guy in the trade would not be in the trades.
with out guns or lifts i think that would take care of over 50% of carpenters in the trade :sad::sad:


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

Big Shoe said:


> Removed 600' of base a couple yrs ago. Every stud had a pair of spiral shank #6 trim nails. one above the other. on every stud. hand driven. What a *****.
> 
> We were saving all of it to reuse. What a pain getting it off. Then the owner decided to put all new base on. :blink:



Spirals are a little excessive. That probably wasn't any fun at all.

In other news, I was working in a kitchen yesterday and my toe kicked the toe-kick, which completely fell off the cabinets. They had used air and didn't set their depth. Had blasted right through the piece. Dumb.


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## Windwash (Dec 23, 2007)

rselectric1 said:


> I completely understand the hesitance and the pride respectively.
> 
> How many of you can use ONLY a framing square, and pencil/paper to figure out the running length of a common rafter with only a rise, run, and span? (most simple rafter to figure)
> 
> ...


Went to Chipotle for lunch last week and the register was down for about 20 minutes. During that time everybody that made it through the line got their food for free :clap:. I think the main problem is that they were unable to process credit cards.


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## THW (Jun 19, 2013)

Windwash said:


> Went to Chipotle for lunch last week and the register was down for about 20 minutes. During that time everybody that made it through the line got their food for free :clap:. I think the main problem is that they were unable to process credit cards.


In dunkin donuts today, an old guy (had to be a regular) walks in and shouts at the manager "Hey, I want a job but I don't count good and I don't want to be nice to anyone". They both laugh.

All I can think is he'll fit in perfectly. Nobody can count and half only speak enough English to type in an order.


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

Carpenters worthy to learn from...that is what seems to be disappearing...I have only had the pleasure of working with a few great carpenters...the rest either sucked at what they did or sucked at teaching.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ubcguy89 said:


> I did not mean it like that. All my roofs have been garages, additions, or porches. Its all side work for me, I am a commercial guy, I dont frame houses for a living. Obviously you go with whatever will make you more money. I meant that knowing how to cut a rafter is part of being a carpenter. Read some of my previous posts in this thread. I run work for a commercial GC. I get apprentices, and I would love to be able to teach them how to do things, but sometimes money limits what they get to learn right away.


Ahh, sorry about that. Your right conventional roof cutting should be a requirement to be a carpenter.


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> Ahh, sorry about that. Your right conventional roof cutting should be a requirement to be a carpenter.


It really should be. its a damn shame that so few guys can stick frame a roof. The sad part about that is if they cant do that they sure as hell cant build stairs. and if you cant build stairs you cant form stairs for concrete.


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## Kc91 (Sep 29, 2013)

ubcguy89 said:


> It really should be. its a damn shame that so few guys can stick frame a roof. The sad part about that is if they cant do that they sure as hell cant build stairs. and if you cant build stairs you cant form stairs for concrete.


Lol


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## Derek1157 (Dec 21, 2012)

I agree very much. I grew up in Montana(I'm 29), where a lot of these "traditional" practices/tools are still very common. Montana is always behind the rest of the country. People are still driving their "Billy Bob" trucks from the 70's and 80's. 

Corded tools are where it's at. I love my cordless drills for wood working, but that's about it. Nothing beats a 90 degree cordless for assembling cabinets. 

I have a radial arm saw in my shop. Sure I have a 12" Dewalt Miter saw, and a table saw in my trailer to take to jobs. Most guys don't realize how much you can do with a radial, though. In highschool (late 90's), there was an entire semester devoted to using a radial in woodshop. I think that was the tail-end of a dying era. They are the most dangerous shop tool, but they are so useful when shown respect. It's the only saw you'd need in a shop. Maybe a bandsaw....

A framing square is probably the most useful and educational tool for a carpenter or aspiring carpenter. To me, this is the first thing you should learn to use. You can do so much with one! Entire homes used to be laid out with a carpenter square, a plumb bob, a whisky level, and a tape measure. 

I will say that I love my speed square, but I also love my combo square. I was a welder/fabricator, and a combo square is very useful for multiple trades. Speed squares have their niche. 

There's nothing quite like the feel of driving nails with your own strength and dexterity. Surprising how many guys won't or can't do it. I have a small assortment of hammers. I've even seen idiots driving finish nails with 25 oz waffle fat heads. Sad....there's something to be said for choosing the right tool. Why not just bring your mommy's high heels to work with you?!

Unfortunately, in an age of cookie-cutter housing, these new gimmicky tools are all too rampant. Just my humble opinion. As is the lack of traditional knowledge and practices that are the foundation of good carpentry.

One last thing....anyone notice how many guys can't cut a straight line with a circular saw. Lord help them if they have to cut a piece of sheeting.

I want to add to the list:
1) M & T gauge
2) Hand plane
3) Hand auger
4) Box tape


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

Californiadecks said:


> Ahh, sorry about that. Your right conventional roof cutting should be a requirement to be a carpenter.


I was the 2nd to last class of apprentices in this province to get the full on roof cutting classes from them. Since then, everything has been scaled back.

Why? Because no one cuts roofs here any more. All trusses. And the contractors were complaining that kids were coming in, knowing nothing about trusses. But they could cut ya a rafter. 

The extent my my hand cut rafters comes in when building boxed returns or doing a small shed dormer. 

I am ashamed to say, that if given a set of plans to frame a big a$$ roof, I wouldn't really know where to start. And it's not like I have the time of day to practise that stuff any more.

Sure, I could read about it. But that doesn't help me. I am a hands on learner. Reading really does nothing but give me a very vague scope of how something works.


Apprentices here now learn trusses in trade school. The school even has a few sets of trusses that get assembled and taken apart as part of the class. They also pretty much use all air now. When I went, we didn't get that option. Hand nailed everything. Trim, crown, doors, framing, furniture (ok... some screws were used here..) And weren't touching any power tools for the first 4 months of school.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Interesting thread- I just read through the whole thing..

I am not really a carpenter-what we do almost exclusively is work on slate & ceramic tile roofs. I am the 4th of 5 generations in my family involved with this- though in the interest of accuracy------- my dad eventually ( and eagerly) took an inside job.-untill 4-5 years ago I had uncles and cousins in a competing business with the same family name.

things don't change a whole lot in my business. some of the tools we use daily were the exact same ones my dad and granddad used.

slate is still hand nailed with slate hammers. my slate hammer is identical to grandpa's and will drive nails, cut slate and punch counter sunk nail holes in slate ( thank you Stortz & Co.) my sons prefer some German hammers that are much heavier than mine. they are perfect for repair and restoration work where you need to beat on a slate ripper with the force that would break my slate hammer.

We still use copper nails often-- though more typically we use stainless roofing nails because in repair/restoration work SS nails drive into knotty,90 year old sun backed and hardened southern yellow pine Better than copper..

slate is still cut by hand-either with a hammer and stake or with our slate cutters.

Most days we don't use electricity at all---with the exception of cutting lumber-------typically just a few minutes a day if at all.

On ceramic roofs we DO sometimes use a dewalt grinder with a diamond wheel. It depends on the tile profile. Typically these houses were planned out and framed so that you didn't have to cut hardly ANY tile- maybe around a waste stack.( thankyou 1910's carpenters!) @ things that have really changed how we do things
1) internet. with the internet I can locate salvaged tile across the country for re-use- tile I need for a specific job that maybe hasn't been made since 1936

2) smart phones. thank goodness for my sons and their smart phones- they can check radar and save us from BAD mistakes. on about 10-17 we were finishing up a repair at about 11:15 AM---- we were expecting some rain in the afternoon but at that moment there was literally not a single cloud in the sky. We wanted to do another repair on the opposite side of the customers house that should take about 3-1/2 hours. My son checked his phone and said"look whats coming"- with 35 minutes it was raining.

this has happened multiple times this year.

Regarding training apprentices--------- this is really a "chicken or the egg " thing isn't it?

No one wants to spend the time,money and incurred LIABILITY training a guy who is just going to quit or be fired in a few months, right?.

and the basic grunt work that allowed apprentices to earn their keep in-between teachable moments has largely been designed out or mechanized out.

for those of you who actually WANT an apprentice- suitable kids are out there- but you might not like the way they look.- could be that minority kid who didn't have the good example of a work ethic that you and I got- or it could be the flannel wearing hipster kid with the college degree that you assume will be too lazy( maybe he IS lazy---OR maybe he is looking for something different and real in his life)

Best wishes, All,
stephen
Edit: Can't believe I forgot to mention soldering. Grandpa used to solder copper flashings with hand irons,charcoal and a old coffee can. LOL thank goodness for propane fired irons!!!!!! also, all of our solder,flux etc. comes via the internet since I can't find it locally.
Stephen


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Stephen H said:


> Interesting thread- I just read through the whole thing..
> 
> I am not really a carpenter-what we do almost exclusively is work on slate & ceramic tile roofs. I am the 4th of 5 generations in my family involved with this- though in the interest of accuracy------- my dad eventually ( and eagerly) took an inside job.-untill 4-5 years ago I had uncles and cousins in a competing business with the same family name.
> 
> ...


Very cool story.


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

I know i've gotten some bewildered looks and comments when i've pulled out a couple chisels to hang a door slab..

Of course if i'm doing a job for a set price, hanging all new doors in a home, i'm losing money if I use my chisels over a router..but anyone using a router should be able to do it with a sharp chisel as well IMO..

My family still has my grandpa's old bit and brace, kind of cool not to forget this stuff...


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

In the 4 years I've been doing production framing, out of the countless houses we've done we've only done 2 truss roofs. Only 2 guys on our crew can layout a roof, but most of us can layout and cut the hips and valleys and overframes.


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

Imakenice said:


> I know i've gotten some bewildered looks and comments when i've pulled out a couple chisels to hang a door slab..
> 
> Of course if i'm doing a job for a set price, hanging all new doors in a home, i'm losing money if I use my chisels over a router..but anyone using a router should be able to do it with a sharp chisel as well IMO..
> 
> My family still has my grandpa's old bit and brace, kind of cool not to forget this stuff...


One of the contractors I used to work with a lot insisted it was impossible to mortise doors without a router and that it could not be done with chisels.


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

Dustincoc said:


> One of the contractors I used to work with a lot insisted it was impossible to mortise doors without a router and that it could not be done with chisels.


They have us chisel in hinges and strike plates in school before they let us use routers. I still use chisels in the field though.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Youngin' said:


> They have us chisel in hinges and strike plates in school before they let us use routers. I still use chisels in the field though.


Same here, by the time someone gets out a router and sets it up, I've already done 3 doors


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

I've never used a router to hang doors. just chisel


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I like the router with my door jig. I can and have used a chisel but it isn't as clean as a router. It's like the tracksaw vs. Freehand argument.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

I can do it with chisels but I like using a router. Maybe I am lazy it is just less work to keep the depths the same on all the hinges


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

Same here, I can do both, but the router does it cleaner with more precision.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

This baby right here


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> This baby right here
> 
> 
> View attachment 101886


Cali..... Looks cool.....Y a got me though.....WTheck is it?????


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> This baby right here


Would a kit like that be useful for jobs switching from flat luan doors to raised panel doors?

We currently just lay the old slab on the new one and mark everything, use hole saws, spade bits, and router with a cheap set of plastic jigs (that have been nicked several times) and chisels.

I have looked at that kit a few times but it's hard to tell how much time it saves...


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

For drilling out doors for locksets?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Texas Wax said:


> So is a properly sharpened edge without a micro bevel lol


The micro bevel makes it easier to sharpen, because you shouldn't have to shape it.


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

Therefore it cuts better because it is easier to keep it sharp...


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> The micro bevel makes it easier to sharpen, because you shouldn't have to shape it.



:laughing: That is not the answer, does it make it sharper? :laughing:

I'm being a smart @ss. 

I carry a set of 6 stanley chisels, a 2" and an 8 in hand plane on every job that can way more than shave hair. I only put a secondary bevel on if the edge got nicked, or over used. And don't have the time on site to re-shape. There's a whole process/set of habits that develop over many years and many sharpenings that make the "micro bevel" concept just funny to me... But a real understanding of how to really care for and maintain yet alone use chisels and planes "...things that seem to be disappearing" and are being replaced with terms and short cuts :no:


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Coooooooooooooooooool:thumbsup:

That table saw is kinda like using a chainsaw without any gas.


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Coooooooooooooooooool:thumbsup:
> 
> That table saw is kinda like using a chainsaw without any gas.


Roy Underhill did an episode where he used a manual tablesaw one time. I'll see if I can find it.


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

Actually it was a whole episode about manually powered power tools. Episode was named "Rie of the Machines". Here's a link: http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/watch-on-line/2012-2013-episodes/


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