# Free Estimates



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I see there will be no winning this with you. You have no real concept of the work that goes into bidding these types of projects. Just keep taking out the garbage.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

DP, not knowing your posts very well, what kind of residential remodeling experience do you have?

Are you a current residential contractor?

Just curious.

J


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

I paused and looked at two on the way home. Waived the fee after giving prices. No biggie, they were willing to pay. Got the jobs. 
Got two calls form other roofers that don't charge. THey both asked if I could sub a few jobs out to them. I'm giving one a job and thinking about the other.

Maybe I should quit charging? The only ones that call are willing to pay. The ones looking for something free never seem to call anymore.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

DP has no business even being on here. He's not a contractor, he's in the trash/waste business. He works for or with the government, that right there should tell you enough. 

I will just ignore all his comments as they really don't make any sense and he's so far out of touch from what we do in day to day operations of our businesses. Maybe he's jealous he can't charge for his government bids.

The way the gov. wastes money, you'd think that everyone would be charging for a proposal or bid.

Don't worry, you can still hang up on me DP, I really don't care. I'll find someone else that values my time.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

DPCII said:


> And I am not paying you to do your job of getting quutoes from subs. You have everything you need to bid the job, your pre-construction visits, calling to subs is adding no value to me.
> 
> Forget a cost plus contract, would never happen.
> 
> ...


Car buying and contracting/construction is not apples and apples. give up now because no one here is going to agree with you. you don't know our business and I'm really not sure why you are here, you belong at the DIY area not where professional contractors are.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

DPCII said:


> No, I have asked you to take part in a competitive process, and the terms and conditions have been outlined. If you don't like them, then don't bid.
> 
> I have not asked you to get pricing from subs. I have given you plans and specs and have asked you for a price to complete the job based on those. I could care less if you do it all in house or sub out the whole thing.
> 
> ...


I think there is more to it then that.

How about being able to actually complete the job? A big reason for bonds.

How about being able to finance the jobs?


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

ApgarNJ said:


> Car buying and contracting/construction is not apples and apples. give up now because no one here is going to agree with you. you don't know our business and I'm really not sure why you are here, you belong at the DIY area not where professional contractors are.


Didn't you just write that you were going to ignore my comments? Apparently not a man of your word. 

Anyway I don't care if people agree with me or not. The fact is that a reniovation is a process. That process is either controlled by the client or the builder. I know you all like to pound your chest and thik you drive process but that is not always the case. 

Personally I drive process RFQ then RFP then contrtact award. The palying field is equal your bid is adding no value. You are not designing. You are not consulting. 

And for Finley yes a performance bond would be required and yes I know I would pay for it. 

Funny how you all pound your chests but won't debate the point. 

Oh and for the record - I am an attorney turned garbage man who also owns 60 percent of a roofing company.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

DPCII said:


> Oh and for the record - I am an attorney turned garbage man who also owns 60 percent of a roofing company.


Is this how you used to argue your court cases? :whistling


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

What were we talking about?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

We have debated the point. And you just stick to what you have said. We have given you tons of reasons and you just dismiss all of them. You can do business as you please. And we will do it our way. 

You can do all your work up to the point of possibly getting the job for free. That is your choice. But the fact that just about all the contractors on here disagree with you should tell you something.

You are a former lawyer, you figure what that is for yourself.



And working government jobs is not the same thing as working commercial and residential jobs. Not even close. They have stacked the playing field towards their advantage. Yes, it does level the playing field. But when you are shooting for the lowest bid no matter what.....


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

DPCII said:


> Didn't you just write that you were going to ignore my comments? Apparently not a man of your word.
> 
> Anyway I don't care if people agree with me or not. The fact is that a reniovation is a process. That process is either controlled by the client or the builder. I know you all like to pound your chest and thik you drive process but that is not always the case.
> 
> ...


I can ignore your comments and still give my opinion. I went back and found that previous quote of yours about buying at truck etc. 

you can't compare gov bids to residential construction bidding. go back to being a lawyer and stop trying to put your two cents into something you really know nothing about.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

ApgarNJ said:


> I can ignore your comments and still give my opinion. I went back and found that previous quote of yours about buying at truck etc.
> 
> you can't compare gov bids to residential construction bidding. go back to being a lawyer and stop trying to put your two cents into something you really know nothing about.


How do you respond/opine on my comments and ignore them at the same time?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Because we are not lawyers.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

Leo G said:


> We have debated the point. And you just stick to what you have said. We have given you tons of reasons and you just dismiss all of them. You can do business as you please. And we will do it our way.
> 
> You can do all your work up to the point of possibly getting the job for free. That is your choice. But the fact that just about all the contractors on here disagree with you should tell you something.
> 
> ...


With specificity, please show me where the point has been debated?

Your right, commercial and govt. bids have stacked the deck in their favor. When I am a client, I stack it in mine. No different than a contractor tries to stack it in their favor.

It is about who drives process.

As for being a former lawyer - I figured out there was more money in trash than law.


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

Thank you all for this thread.

It reminds me why we don't work for lawyers :w00t:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

DPCII said:


> With specificity, please show me where the point has been debated?
> 
> Your right, commercial and govt. bids have stacked the deck in their favor. When I am a client, I stack it in mine. No different than a contractor tries to stack it in their favor.
> 
> ...


Typical lawyer - ignores what they don't want to deal with

and the irony is that every attorney i've ever dealt with charged me to drive to their office and sit with them for an hour to go over what I needed done...all before I hired them and/or paid the retainer...


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

mahlere said:


> and the irony is that every attorney i've ever dealt with charged me to drive to their office and sit with them for an hour to go over what I needed done...all before I hired them and/or paid the retainer...


 

In the entire history of the legal profession, only once has a lawyer worked for free. His name was Rudy Baylor, and it was 13 years ago and the name of the Movie was Rainmaker and Rudy was really Matt Damon, and the movie was really based off a fictional book by John Grisham. 



Now imagine walking into a lawyer's office, plopping a disclosure on the table and saying "There, you have all the information you need to find a way to win my case...call me when you're done and I'll decide if your strategy is good enough. I'm leaving now, I have to drop this off to 10 other lawyers...just like you...and make the same proposition. The "winning" lawyer will have the privelege of having me as their client. Good luck, now get to work."

But apparently that's how you should approach a contractor. Only difference being in our case...we have to drive to THEM to pick up the disclosure. Oh the utter joy


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

i am however picturing Booger from the beginning of Revenge of the Nerds 3


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

ChrWright said:


> All of our businesses are based on an exchange of value. We determine our own value based on what we charge. By not charging for estimates, you value your time at a lower rate than those who do--all things being equal (ie-if you're charging the same for the project).
> 
> Charging for estimates vs. not charging is not a trust issue--unless you equate being cheaper to being more trustworthy. This skirts the mentality that if you're charging more, you're taking advantage of clients.
> 
> If that's the belief you hold at the heart of the issue, no amount of debate or arguing is going to convince you otherwise.


 
I disagree. 

You & the others that support your opinion are completely overlooking too many factors that blow holes in your arguement. 

The 2 obvious ones that you miss are the trade(s) one is in & ones location.

For example:

You are in a very small town like Marion, KY and happen to be the only mason around for many miles you can. You can easily charge your "trip charge" (or whatever you want to call it). Great. :thumbsup:

Then we step up to the third largest market in the country, the Chicagoland & NW Indiana area.

With ALL things being equal:

Mason Contractor A & Mason Contractor B both do excellent quality work and provide top notch service. Both do outstanding jobs of pre-qualifing potential customers.


The only difference between the 2 is:


Mason Contractor B, is one of the few in the this particular trade, Masonry, that charges for estimates.


Mason Contractor A, like the overwhelming majority of mason contractors, from the outstanding ones down to the hacks, in this large market offers "free estimates".


So again, with all things being equal, from a business standpoint, Mason Contractor A has a definite advantage over his competition, Mason Contractor B.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

conversely, mason A spends a lot of his time running around giving free estimates and competing on price with masons c through h.....whereas mason b spends his time selling work to customers who are not getting 10 bids...and is able to perform more work with less downtime...thereby giving mason b the advantage...

most of us are tradesmen...but for some reason we think that we shouldn't go to school again and learn how to be businessmen...i'll never understand...


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

mahlere said:


> conversely, mason A spends a lot of his time running around giving free estimates and competing on price with masons c through h.....whereas mason b spends his time selling work to customers who are not getting 10 bids...and is able to perform more work with less downtime...thereby giving mason b the advantage...
> 
> most of us are tradesmen...but for some reason we think that we shouldn't go to school again and learn how to be businessmen...i'll never understand...


 
Sorry Mahlere, but you need to go back & re-read my post:



> Mason Contractor A & Mason Contractor B both do excellent quality work and provide top notch service. Both do outstanding jobs of pre-qualifing potential customers.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

But Brickie, you're forgetting, all these guys charging for their bids do better work than ANYONE else possibly could. Their time is excruciatingly more valuable - hence the bid fees - than everyone else. And finally, F-U if you don't agree that they are the best and deserve every penny that they demand from their victims. 

Oh, and you aren't a successful business unless you're charging these fees as well. :no:

These guys can't even agree to disagree. Let's hope this doesn't dissolve into a religious or political debate or the entire planet will be in jeopardy!


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

Charging for proposals isn't for everyone, the guys here who have been talking about for a while, have even STATED this. You have to SET your company over and above the competition and show the homeowner that you are bringing more to the table and that you are more qualified to do the job than the guy who just dropped off the proposal in some beatup truck dripping oil in the driveway and it's hand written, barely legible and took him about 10 minutes to write up. 

When a service man comes to look at your washer /dryer or any other appliance, you are giving him a TRIP charge and a consultation charge just for him to step in your door and look at, without even TOUCHING it or FIXING IT! you pay that fee whether he fixes it that day or not. He might say it's not fixable and you need a new one. You still pay that guy for coming out and telling you that. How is that any different than a contractor who gets a call about some windows that aren't working properly, they might need maintenance they might need to be replaced. Why should the contractor go there and consult with the homeowner about his windows or whatever they might want done, for free? It really makes zero sense. I don't think there is any other profession out there that can drive around and consult and give proposals for free. What about he guy who's taking the entire day to look at jobs, think about his time, his fuel, his wear and tear on the truck. He then has to come home and spend time doing the proposal. So a customer shouldn't have a hard time paying 50-75 bucks for a 1 hour consultation/trip charge for a small job and then addition for design fees. For larger renovations 50k on up should be paying even more for a well written Bid/proposal which is usually 5-10 pages of explanations, contracts, legal info.

Some guys can get away with charging because they have the right clients. The guy who is no different than anyone else in his town, probably can't get away doing it because he's not setting himself apart from anyone. Once I work for a new homeowner that's never met me before, they usually NEVER get a bid from anyone else from there on out. I try to do the best possible job and I say what I am going do, and I DO what I say I 'm going to do. There are many guys who never show, show up late, dressed like slobs, unprofessional, and that is who you have to set yourself apart from.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Brickie said:


> Sorry Mahlere, but you need to go back & re-read my post:


and the easter bunny and the tooth fairy are real....

you are figuring a equal hypothetical that's not based in reality...

how do they do "an excellent job pre-screening"? how are 2 different people (or companies) exactly equal?


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

A. Spruce said:


> But Brickie, you're forgetting, all these guys charging for their bids do better work than ANYONE else possibly could. Their time is excruciatingly more valuable - hence the bid fees - than everyone else. And finally, F-U if you don't agree that they are the best and deserve every penny that they demand from their victims.
> 
> Oh, and you aren't a successful business unless you're charging these fees as well. :no:
> 
> These guys can't even agree to disagree. Let's hope this doesn't dissolve into a religious or political debate or the entire planet will be in jeopardy!


well, spruce, unless you have figured out time/space continuum, i would have do say that my time is incredibly valuable...I only get 168 hrs/week...i can't save any of them...use them or lose them...and i'd rather use some of them generating revenue so that I can spend the rest of them having fun with my son, my family and my friends...I have no desire spending lots of those hours running around giving free quotes to people who don't place any value on my time...

which is good, because I learned a long, long time ago, only about 20% of the population will ever be my type of customer...and it's worked so far...

as for agreeing to disagree...God, that's the reason this country is in trouble...there really is right and wrong...agreeing to disagree simply says "i don't care that i'm wrong, i'm not changing"...good luck with that...


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

mahlere said:


> Typical lawyer - ignores what they don't want to deal with
> 
> and the irony is that every attorney i've ever dealt with charged me to drive to their office and sit with them for an hour to go over what I needed done...all before I hired them and/or paid the retainer...


You are proving my point. You are letting the lawyer control the process.

Next time, let them know that you want to qualify them (firm history, CV's of all involved, relevent cases worked on, hourly rates (blended or not).) Let them know you are getting this information from other firms as well.

Then, tell them you will meet with them for an hour to give them the generalities of the case so they can provide you with an engagement letter and scope of work.

Give them a firm date that holds for all the firms you are shopping to and let them all know a decision will be rendered on a specific date.

There, you are now in control of the process, your initial consultation is free and you will have lawyers competing for your work.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

Heritage said:


> In the entire history of the legal profession, only once has a lawyer worked for free. His name was Rudy Baylor, and it was 13 years ago and the name of the Movie was Rainmaker and Rudy was really Matt Damon, and the movie was really based off a fictional book by John Grisham.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My God, you are clueless. Every day law firms, like other professionals, compete in competitive procurement processes to win business, and they don't get paid for it.

Potential clients shop law firms all the time and seek multiple proposals with SOWs. They then make their decision, the winner gets business, the losers don't. The losers don't get paid either for their time spent pitching the firm to the client.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

DPCII said:


> You are proving my point. You are letting the lawyer control the process.
> 
> Next time, let them know that you want to qualify them (firm history, CV's of all involved, relevent cases worked on, hourly rates (blended or not).) Let them know you are getting this information from other firms as well.
> 
> ...


you know, I am a type A personality...my attorney's are in the $400/hr range....I dictate lots...but quite frankly, I call BS on your post...

now, maybe you are ultra-super special....or maybe you were a bottom of the barrel lawyer who would whore yourself out for any $ just to get the work...i don't know...

but when I was looking for an attorney I wanted a shark who would fight his/her ass off for me...if they don't make money in the process, they probably wouldn't work as hard...

I didn't want them to look to cut corners because i was beating them over the head for money....I wanted them to pull out all the stops, because even though I would brow beat them and dictate what I wanted, they made enough money to make it worth their while...

i've also found it valuable to pay the fee, just so I could get an actual opinion on an issue, rather than just a general vague idea for free...

again, you may not value your time, or the time of others, but I do...

edit to add - i don't spend 10's of thousands a year in attorney's fees...i'm not a big customer for my attorney's...so I honestly don't expect them to treat me like a big time customer for free...I expect them to treat me like a big time customer because I pay the rate that they want/need to make it worth their while to treat me like i'm their only customer...


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

DPCII said:


> My God, you are clueless. Every day law firms, like other professionals, compete in competitive procurement processes to win business, and they don't get paid for it.
> 
> Potential clients shop law firms all the time and seek multiple proposals with SOWs. They then make their decision, the winner gets business, the losers don't. The losers don't get paid either for their time spent pitching the firm to the client.


just like in our world...those law firms are not jumping through hoops (least none of the law firms worth their salt) to win a $5000 job from a guy who will probably never need them again...but they will for a corporate client who will bring them $millions every year in fees....

just like us...give me a legitimate customer who could bring $millions year in business (profitable business- not business that costs me $millions +1) and we'll talk...bring me a homeowner who wants an estimate on a $200 job, and well, go talk to someone else...

and yes that HO could be the 1 guy in 1000 that will lead to a $million/yr in other work...but, my experience tells me probably not...that $million guy already has someone to handle his $200 job...and he's not looking for a free estimate...he's looking for someone to just come do the work...


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

mahlere said:


> you know, I am a type A personality...my attorney's are in the $400/hr range....I dictate lots...but quite frankly, I call BS on your post...
> 
> now, maybe you are ultra-super special....or maybe you were a bottom of the barrel lawyer who would whore yourself out for any $ just to get the work...i don't know...
> 
> ...


You can call BS if you want, but have you ever tried it? If you are a type A personality, then why are you kowtowing to the dictates of the law firms?

You are again missing the point. You are qualifying the law firms. Any that you choose to get a SOW and engagement letter from, you have already deemed as an acceptable "shark". Lets say you narrow it to 3 firms, by doing so, you are comfortable with any of the 3 representing you, it is now a matter of service (atty experience, case history and track record, number of atty's, rates).

You think because someone is charging you for the initial vist that they are a shark and it shows they value their time and treating you like a big time customer? How wrong you are.

If you want them to treat you like a "big time customer" - then act like a big time customer and take the time to qualify THEM and prove that you are not only acting, but are a big time customer because you are competively securing the services for a long term relationship.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

mahlere said:


> just like in our world...those law firms are not jumping through hoops (least none of the law firms worth their salt) to win a $5000 job from a guy who will probably never need them again...but they will for a corporate client who will bring them $millions every year in fees....
> 
> just like us...give me a legitimate customer who could bring $millions year in business (profitable business- not business that costs me $millions +1) and we'll talk...bring me a homeowner who wants an estimate on a $200 job, and well, go talk to someone else...
> 
> and yes that HO could be the 1 guy in 1000 that will lead to a $million/yr in other work...but, my experience tells me probably not...that $million guy already has someone to handle his $200 job...and he's not looking for a free estimate...he's looking for someone to just come do the work...


A $5K case and I probably would have never returned the call. However, if you look at my example, I referenced a $100K renovation that already had plans/specs in hand.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

A. Spruce said:


> But Brickie, you're forgetting, all these guys charging for their bids do better work than ANYONE else possibly could. Their time is excruciatingly more valuable - hence the bid fees - than everyone else. And finally, F-U if you don't agree that they are the best and deserve every penny that they demand from their victims.
> 
> Oh, and you aren't a successful business unless you're charging these fees as well. :no:
> 
> These guys can't even agree to disagree. Let's hope this doesn't dissolve into a religious or political debate or the entire planet will be in jeopardy!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Why are we comparing scum bag devil worshiping lawyers to carpenters? Jesus was a carpenter. Stop insulting carpenters.

Becauase a lawyer would do it this way in his profession, closer to God carpenters should do the same? I don't think so. Carpenters follow the shining path, we will not be strayed or tempted by the devils advocates.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

:laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Excuse me is this on? 

Check.. check...

(clears throat) 

How about this?

What exactly would be the reason anybody who is in the home improvement field would turn down a check from their customer at time of first meeting them if there was no detrimental side effects?

Anyone?

Okay. Now that we have that cleared up. It's agreed that we all are not doing what we do for free or for the love of it. We do this to make money right? Okay more total agreement.

If you're all in agreement with that then lets continue to the main issue and only issue.

Those who argue against charging for estimates, trip charges or design fees are arguing against them for one reason and one reason only right?

Reason is - you fear it will cost you business in the long run, right? That's the only reason isn't it? You believe that you will not set enough appointments, you will lose future business, right?

End of story.

Now we are all in agreement that the only reason anyone would not want a customer to hand them a check the first time they stand in front of each other, is simply because you're scared you won't get to stand in front of enough customers.

Good. Now everybody can go home. Good night.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

*Double Penetrated -*

Now I know for certain why you'll never get it.

I have said before you're like the customer that none of us would work for. I suspected it before based on your comments. Now it's without a doubt, and it's right here:



DPCII said:


> Your right, commercial and govt. bids have stacked the deck in their favor. *When I am a client, I stack it in mine. No different than a contractor tries to stack it in their favor*.


Good business is about *Win/Win* not Win/Loss. 

I've met you many, many times over the years. Your type is why we weed you out with a fee that we know you will refuse to pay. 

Oh, you can't believe we would charge you to do our job? Oh, you are just incensed by the whole thing? Oh... too bad. Good-bye. Click.

Ex-lawyer. LOL. :laughing: Talk about a poker tell. :blink:


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

mahlere said:


> and the easter bunny and the tooth fairy are real....
> 
> you are figuring a equal hypothetical that's not based in reality...
> 
> how do they do "an excellent job pre-screening"? how are 2 different people (or companies) exactly equal?


 
Mahlere,

Once again, you need to re-read what I posted.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Those who argue against charging for estimates, trip charges or design fees are arguing against them for one reason and one reason only right?


 
Nope, there's more than 1 reason




> Now we are all in agreement that the only reason anyone would not want a customer to hand them a check the first time they stand in front of each other, is simply because you're scared you won't get to stand in front of enough customers.


Nope, we're not in agreement at all.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Brickie said:


> Nope, there's more than 1 reason
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And?arty:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Brickie said:


> Mahlere,
> 
> Once again, you need to re-read what I posted.


You'll have to translate it for me. To me it looks like you are saying A & B are equal, but A is free so he'll do better than B. 

Is that not what you meant?


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> *Double Penetrated -*
> 
> Now I know for certain why you'll never get it.
> 
> ...


Once again, you have it all wrong. YOU are the one that would be weeded out in the qualifications phase.

You are willing to trip over dollar bills to collect nickels.

You are correct, it is about win/win, so when it comes to negotiation, I put myself in a position to concede items, not have to ask for them.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

We are weeding out people who don't value our time. It is worth something. If you don't think that your time is worth something then you will have a lot of running around to do to find this out. Someone who is unwilling to put our $25-$100 on a multi thousand dollar project is probably not worth your time. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule. And you may miss out on a good client.

But on average, someone not willing to compensate you for your effort, time, fuel is probably not the client you want to have.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Brickie said:


> So again, with all things being equal, from a business standpoint, Mason Contractor A has a definite advantage over his competition, Mason Contractor B.


 
I hate to say it, but if free estimates are a companies great market advantage...

... that's exactly the reason they *have* to do free estimates. 

_Commodity. Commodity. Commodity._

That little word just keeps coming up.

We are A and we are identical to B. Well if you're both exactly the same and B wants $10.00 to look at my job. I'm calling A!

Yikes man. Time to be a greeter at Wal-mart. :blink:

Why be in business if a coin flip differentiates you.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

Leo G said:


> We are weeding out people who don't value our time. It is worth something. If you don't think that your time is worth something then you will have a lot of running around to do to find this out. Someone who is unwilling to put our $25-$100 on a multi thousand dollar project is probably not worth your time. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule. And you may miss out on a good client.
> 
> But on average, someone not willing to compensate you for your effort, time, fuel is probably not the client you want to have.


And again, it depends on what you are doing for that fee. Designing? Providing consulting services? Providing specs? Yes, those are all value added processes that you should be compensated for.

Is the client handing you plans and specs for a 100K remodel and asking for your bid? If so, what value are you adding to the process to warrant a fee?

Further, you would have to be out of your mind to come across as a nickel and dimer on a job that size. If they have plans and specs, what more do you possibly need to prove they are serious about the job?


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Leo G said:


> We are weeding out people who don't value our time. It is worth something. If you don't think that your time is worth something then you will have a lot of running around to do to find this out.


You are making a false assumption that those of us that don't charge for estimates as outlined by Finley, etc., don't value our time and that we don't pre-qualify our clients.





> Someone who is unwilling to put our $25-$100 on a multi thousand dollar project is probably not worth your time.


.

Another false assumption on your part

There's nothing wrong with someone that doesn't want to get nickeled & dimed:no:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

DPCII said:


> Once again, you have it all wrong. YOU are the one that would be weeded out in the qualifications phase.
> 
> You are willing to trip over dollar bills to collect nickels.
> 
> You are correct, it is about win/win, so when it comes to negotiation, I put myself in a position to concede items, not have to ask for them.


As long as my schedule is full. (non-stop 2-3 month back-log of work since 2006) I don't think I'm missing out on too much.

I weed you guys out each and every day. 

A successful business defines it's target audience/market and strives to only work for customers that fit their target profile. 

A successful business if more picky about whom they work for then anything else.

I remember the last guy like yourself who snuck through our qualifications process and wasted a lot of my time.

Ex laywer. Wanted me to sign his contract. :laughing: 

$35K master bathroom project all done but for the inking on the dotted line, we walked away.

But Double P, you keep on believing that all contractors are idiots that you can manipulate, and the ones that you can't are missing out on the wonderful experience of being screwed by you. 

This is what it comes down to for us 



> A successful business defines it's target audience/market and strives to only work for customers that fit their target profile.


We have systems in place, from the moment the call comes in. If you don't fit our defined specifications, then you're irrelevent to me. You might be the nicest guy on the planet, who might referr me to millions of dollars of business in the future, but I'm never going to find out, and I'm certainly never going to give it a second thought, nor spill a tear. There is a system in place and that system is based on what makes my business run successfully day after day, week after week, year after year. You are like a item dropping down a sorting basket, when you call and enter the system. You will be sorted and either stay in the sytem or fall out. But either way, you're just a number, just another call. Nothing more.

The system won't be changed unless it doesn't work. Not because you think it doesn't work. I have the accounting results in front of me and they tell me the system is a gold mine. When the results decline we will adjust the system, until then we keep on going, scooping up raw leads and sifting them through the system. The ones that fit, get appointments made and those that don't we let the system discard them. There is always another lead to take it's place, and another and another and another.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> As long as my schedule is full. (non-stop 2-3 month back-log of work since 2006) I don't think I'm missing out on too much.
> 
> I weed you guys out each and every day.
> 
> ...


So if someone comes to you with architect plans and specifications for $50K master bath, they are wasting your time by not wanting to be nickeled and dimed by paying you to bid it?

Are they not valuing your time by not wasting it spending countless hours debating the design and the products specd?

You must have a pretty big inferiority complex if you think you are being manipulated by having a level bidding field for all.

And I would *never* sign your contract as is.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

You sir, are a red flag.

With a "Run Forrest run" tattoo on your forehead.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> I hate to say it, but if free estimates are a companies great market advantage...


 
First of, there's NO such thing as a free lunch or a "free estimate"

Having said that, yes there is a great marketing advantage






> We are A and we are identical to B. Well if you're both exactly the same and B wants $10.00 to look at my job. I'm calling A!


 

Exactly. No one wants to be nickeled and dimed:no:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)




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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

DPCII said:


> So if someone comes to you with architect plans and specifications for $50K master bath, they are wasting your time by not wanting to be nickeled and dimed by paying you to bid it?
> 
> Are they not valuing your time by not wasting it spending countless hours debating the design and the products specd?
> 
> ...


Read the above post again.

My business does what it does based upon a successful formula. We design / build in house. We do not bid to somebodies plans, we do not get hired as labor to install stuff they bought at Direct Buy so they could save $3.00.

If you came to me with architect plans to build your master bath, the conversation would be short. I would inform you that we don't do that. We design and build in house. Sorry. Have a good day.

Can't understand the concept?

Go ask Ford to build you a Chevy Tahoe, see how that works for you.

Nobody who is good at what they do needs to reinvent their business for one customer. - make sense? Probably not.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

Leo G said:


> You sir, are a red flag.
> 
> With a "Run Forrest run" tattoo on your forehead.


Because I won't be nickeled and dimed and won't sign a contractor's contract as is?

That street works both ways - anyone that wants to nickel and dime their clients and insists on their contract as is, well, is a red flag business.

Call me what you want, but when we built our new transfer station, we ran an RFQ and RFP process with over 35 repsondents to the former. Funny how none of them asked for an estimating fee.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

DPCII said:


> And I would *never* sign your contract as is.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

God damn! Do I have a crystal ball or what?

That's why I weed dingle berrys like yourself out. So my company can spend it's resources dealing with great customers, while you go try to manipulate some poor dummy you find on craigslist and then spend hours bitching and moaning about how bad the guy was to all your friends.

You're so transparent it's not even funny.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> As long as my schedule is full. (non-stop 2-3 month back-log of work since 2006) I don't think I'm missing out on too much.


Same here, not missing out on too much either.:thumbsup:





> A successful business defines it's target audience/market and strives to only work for customers that fit their target profile.


 
I agree




> A successful business if more picky about whom they work for then anything else.


 
I agree






> We have systems in place, from the moment the call comes in.


Same here





> The ones that fit, get appointments made and those that don't we let the system discard them. There is always another lead to take it's place, and another and another and another


Same here


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

ok already. jesus.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> Read the above post again.
> 
> My business does what it does based upon a successful formula. We design / build in house. We do not bid to somebodies plans, we do not get hired as labor to install stuff they bought at Direct Buy so they could save $3.00.
> 
> ...


And that's fine. If you only design/build and I already had plans, I would not expect you to make an exception and certainly understand your rationale for not bidding.


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