# Illegitimate trades



## kfc510 (Feb 28, 2012)

huggytree said:


> are you angry with the customers or the side jobbers?
> 
> i think its 100% a customer issue
> 
> i used to say 50% of people shop by price alone.....i do admit that % may have risen to 60%+.....it still leaves 40% to fight over


I don't know if "angry with" is really where I'm at. I'm definitely disappointed with guys that cheat more and more, they're part of the problem. But I get it that they're just trying to survive. 

Same way I feel about illegals- the ones I've known personally have been really nice people... but they're definitely undermining working class wages and conditions; and are willingly breaking the law(s) to better their own circumstances.

Yes I'm disappointed in customers too- around here you'll meet do-gooders who buy nothing but fair-trade coffee and cruelty-free deoderant, but when it comes to hiring a tradesman will happily screw over the honest, above-board working man to save a buck.

And finally I'm disappointed with the system and with enforcement. It is set up to maintain a permanent desperate class of workers who can never be fully legit, and who will therefore always undercut everybody else.

The whole situation is *****ed, and it's getting worse.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

kfc510 said:


> But that's the point- the market is being taken over by illegal work.
> 
> It's not a stable fraction that can be left to the bottom feeders. It is an aggressively growing problem.


It is what it is. I am just saying, if the field has so many illegals /side jobbers...etc. And, it's very difficult to make a living doing it legit, then, perhaps it's a good time to learn something that isn't oversaturated with the type of competition previously mentioned.

Just a question of supply and demand.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

flashheatingand said:


> It is what it is. I am just saying, if the field has so many illegals /side jobbers...etc. And, it's very difficult to make a living doing it legit, then, perhaps it's a good time to learn something that isn't oversaturated with the type of competition previously mentioned.
> 
> Just a question of supply and demand.


Well, you said it politely.:thumbsup:


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## kfc510 (Feb 28, 2012)

flashheatingand said:


> It is what it is. I am just saying, if the field has so many illegals /side jobbers...etc. And, it's very difficult to make a living doing it legit, then, perhaps it's a good time to learn something that isn't oversaturated with the type of competition previously mentioned.
> 
> Just a question of supply and demand.


Yeah, there's truth in that. But at the rate things are going, the niches for the high road guys are becoming smaller and smaller, and getting more and more competitive.

But beyond that, even if you and I are at the top of the food chain and can carve out some market share for ourselves, we're still standing by while an entire professional set (and huge chunk of the blue-collar middle class) gets tossed aside.

I have a problem with that, my own personal circumstances aside.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Irish said it best. A huge chunk of middle class lost and jobless. Many slide into trades, resturantes or retail to survive. Out of work union guys, early retired civil servants also use residential as a supplement. You have wall street investors playing builder and dumb television shows trying to maximize profits avoiding true tradesman. Add millions of day labors...

When I was a kid my father and grandfather sold home improvements. Life was good, trades were good. Not rich but comfortable. Traveled Florida for the winter, Jersey shore in the summer. Motorhomes, boats.... They used to get trips to all over the world from suppliers for selling materials. Now you can barely squeek out a living unless you made a chunk back then and build now for yourself.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

I always explain to people that HST isn't me charging you its the government charging you, this is why I always make sure they know the subtotal and the full total with HST.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Tom M said:


> ......
> 
> When I was a kid my father and grandfather sold home improvements. Life was good, trades were good. Not rich but comfortable. Traveled Florida for the winter, Jersey shore in the summer. Motorhomes, boats.... They used to get trips to all over the world from suppliers for selling materials. Now you can barely squeek out a living unless you made a chunk back then and build now for yourself.


And that ladies and gentlemen, is my biography:thumbsup:


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## The Rookie (May 3, 2014)

I too think these home shows are changing the market in a big way.

All of a sudden average Joe Schmoe homeowners think they're experts in home improvement because they watched a few episodes of Flip This House or whatever. They figure if they can get the gist of it after a few shows, why on earth pay you big money for what even they could do, if only they had the time to do it. They're not aware of the reality until it's too late and they're calling someone to fix it.

It's like people signing up to serve in Iraq because they're pretty good at Call of Duty on Xbox.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

The Rookie said:


> I too think these home shows are changing the market in a big way.
> 
> All of a sudden average Joe Schmoe homeowners think they're experts in home improvement because they watched a few episodes of Flip This House or whatever. They figure if they can get the gist of it after a few shows, why on earth pay you big money for what even they could do, if only they had the time to do it. They're not aware of the reality until it's too late and they're calling someone to fix it.
> 
> It's like people signing up to serve in Iraq because they're pretty good at Call of Duty on Xbox.


Eh, mebbe yes/mebbe no (imagine me flipping my hand up to down and back). Are the shows informing the customer, or is the customer driving the media outlet to produce the shows - as infotainment?

Either way, the time to get these "Yesterday I couldn't spell house flipper - today I are one" - is right after they've done it one time.

Then they'll appreciate a little bit what a legitimate contractor brings to the table.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

carzie said:


> I'm actually surprised that so many of you take a back seat to this problem, if not for the fact these scabs are stealing jobs, maybe not for all of you, but other people that that are not higher end. Still trying to make a living doing what they do and contributing to the tax pool. Where do you think the government makes up for lost revenues from these illegitimate non tax paying businesses? It is coming out of your pocket in one form or another. Think about this the next time you get audited and they want another 5K whilst Joe the cash side jobber down the street just bought a new boat.
> 
> I myself do target higher end work and I charge what I do because I know what it will take to do a proper job, most of my new clients are referrals as was this past lost job. Although I do agree that they were being unrealistic on how much their reno was going to cost and yes my quality of work wasn't within their budget. They could have found another painter that doesn't charge as much but still contributes to the tax pool. Instead they've hired someone who already makes 80K+ a year plus monumental benefits. They did this because they have the option available to them that shouldn't be there. He , and I know for a fact, is working for cash and will not contribute one dime in taxes.
> 
> ...


WOW! It isn't that bad here yet, but it seems under the table is probably normal where you are by now - it's the exception here. That just stinks, sorry to hear it.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

The great majority of residential remodeling work here is under the table. One of the reasons I do as much condominium work as I do is that HOAs essentially enforce the licensing requirement.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I don't want to cut you up, but your a painter, and it is probably the first trade that people figure they can do themselves and save money, no offence.

If your doing high end, high quality work...move on and find better clients, the ones shopping for the cash deals ain't for you (or me).

You can drop a dime to the CRA, one day they will catch up with the guy, one day, but the best place to start is call WSIB, they want their money. If you see/know more then one guy is there working, call CRA/Payroll Source Deductions, thats another dime worthing dropping, and HST as well, those moneys are trust funds, not yours to play with, you don't pay them and boom, CRA will shut you down faster then you can blink...and they are not nice about it either.

Fire Fighters work 24 hour shifts here in Toronto, and only 7 days a month, so that's the equivalent to 5 days a week, 8.5 hours a day, or close to it. Ya, they all have secondary jobs and income.

Remember, the Police, Fire, Paramedics, Building Inspectors, TTC drivers, etc...they all get paid from the same bank account and have the same city boss, complaining to city won't help, they help each other in most instances...unless they have blackballed themselves.

And back to the CRA, everything they look at is statistics, so if they come on the radar, they look at common sense, a guy making 80k a year, wife makes 60k, 400k mtg, 2 car payments, vet bill, kids in school, it all makes sense...no concerns or issues, but they show up and the guy has a 100k boat, couple motorcycles, Visa card is paid in full every month, a couple 4 week vacations, but can't prove it or how he makes it happen...that's when he gets nailed...they always do.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> The great majority of residential remodeling work here is under the table


Bob, do you think licensing / regulations have a lot to do with it?


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I think investor flippers are blowing up house price into another bubble and places like cali wouldn't leave much profit on even entry level homes if a professional process was used. Same most places.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Tom M said:


> Irish said it best. A huge chunk of middle class lost and jobless. Many slide into trades, resturantes or retail to survive. Out of work union guys, early retired civil servants also use residential as a supplement. You have wall street investors playing builder and dumb television shows trying to maximize profits avoiding true tradesman. Add millions of day labors...
> 
> When I was a kid my father and grandfather sold home improvements. Life was good, trades were good. Not rich but comfortable. Traveled Florida for the winter, Jersey shore in the summer. Motorhomes, boats.... They used to get trips to all over the world from suppliers for selling materials. Now you can barely squeek out a living unless you made a chunk back then and build now for yourself.


I, too have watched the race to the bottom over the years......I once made a very good living.......now I'm just getting by......and the quality of work I see performed now is mediocre at best 

I've watched too as neophytes fail because they underprice jobs....this stuff never was cheap if you're gonna do it right 

I have a few (wish I had more) steady customers who not only wait for me.....but will pay my price because they don't wanna risk being ripped off.........this is what you want......sell quality....not price 

Then there is material costs which now often exceed the whole price of the job when I was first starting out......it's not an easy business....it never was really..........but maybe just maybe if enough of the jerks get their ass kicked and lose their shirt......it'll leave more for the real professional 

I hate having to come in behind some of these guys.....i should have started a show like Holmes :laughing:


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

:laughing:I do realize that painting isn't as specialized as some trades and that for the most part it's thought of as an easy job and anyone can do it. That is the reason why I diversified somewhat, all still within the painting realm but specialized and not something the average Joe cash man can do.

As I said I do target higher end clients but if someone calls for a quote I give it. I'm not about to ask for a net income when they call so I have no idea what I'm up against until I arrive. I can usually tell by the house, the way the yard is kept, cars in the drive, 
age of clients etc before I give the quote if I will even be considered. The job I lost to the firefighter hit all the bells for a good client, yes I'm pissed cuz I wasted 3 hours of my life working out a quote to someone who walks in the door and says "I'll do it for $20/hour cash". Their lose, they could have had the best but now they have to look at flashing walls, half filled nail holes and tape bleed every where. There is one thing about this that puts a smile on my face, the trim has original oil paint on it and I know the paint he is using will not stick to it.:laughing:

As far as doing something in higher demand, sure I could but how long will it be before the cashers start doing that too?


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## HoosierIndy (Nov 21, 2013)

I think it's important to understand that everyone starts somewhere. Around here, most people don't want to pay for top quality craftsmanship because they're in a starter home or know they will be moving in 2 years for their job. From their point of view, who cares if the work is perfect? If it makes their home functional and better than before, and they can save a few thousand dollars, isn't that good enough? As for the $20/hr fireman, it's possible he IS paying taxes and doing good work. It could be his beer money or cash for his boat fund. Maybe he hasn't realized yet that his skills are worth much more than $20/hr. Like the other guys said, if you know what you're worth, and you have clients that are willing to pay your rates, you just have to focus on them. I'm just starting out so I don't know much. I do know that I love both filet mignon and ground chuck, but right now due to our budget I eat a LOT more ground chuck!


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

HoosierIndy said:


> I think it's important to understand that everyone starts somewhere. Around here, most people don't want to pay for top quality craftsmanship because they're in a starter home or know they will be moving in 2 years for their job. From their point of view, who cares if the work is perfect? If it makes their home functional and better than before, and they can save a few thousand dollars, isn't that good enough? As for the $20/hr fireman, it's possible he IS paying taxes and doing good work. It could be his beer money or cash for his boat fund. Maybe he hasn't realized yet that his skills are worth much more than $20/hr. Like the other guys said, if you know what you're worth, and you have clients that are willing to pay your rates, you just have to focus on them. I'm just starting out so I don't know much. I do know that I love both filet mignon and ground chuck, but right now due to our budget I eat a LOT more ground chuck!


In our neighbourhood...he's taking cash...and not paying taxes

And he is making well over 80k a year as the fireman, plus pension, plus benefits, plus this, plus that, but he also has to kill 21 days each 28 days so fill it with some cash or sit at home with his wife...the $ 20/hr cash looks damn good now doesn't it


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

hdavis said:


> Bob, do you think licensing / regulations have a lot to do with it?


It all adds up - licensing and regulations, property tax increases, the lack of any enforcement mechanism against illegal contractors. I certainly believe that licensing and other regulations put me at a significant price disadvantage.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

HoosierIndy said:


> ... As for the $20/hr fireman, it's possible he IS paying taxes ...


There's a first time for everything, I suppose.


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