# Snow Removal 2009-10



## digdeep516 (Jun 8, 2009)

snow removal is blood money its as simple as that... i do it and each time i climb into the cab i think to myself "man why do i subject myself to this *****" it beats the equipment to hell, takes years off the trucks, beats the hell out of you and when the "stuff" hits the fan anything that can go wrong... will. But the trade off... its money, and it keeps my guys working alll year round, i dont have to worry about how guys are gonna feed there families cause there working and not looking for a job. Its just one of those things...


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I picked up 5 new driveways but gave up two of them due to non payment. I have a housing developement contract on hold right now. They want me to be on call as they dont know if they will continue to use the contractor that they already have. It is a $12k contract so it would be nice to pick this up. It is rough on equipment but doing the job right and proper maintenance makes it worthwhile. Especially when work is slow.


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## digdeep516 (Jun 8, 2009)

woodchuck2 said:


> I picked up 5 new driveways but gave up two of them due to non payment. I have a housing developement contract on hold right now. They want me to be on call as they dont know if they will continue to use the contractor that they already have. It is a $12k contract so it would be nice to pick this up. It is rough on equipment but doing the job right and proper maintenance makes it worthwhile. Especially when work is slow.


agreed... how bigs that development your lookin at.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

digdeep516 said:


> agreed... how bigs that development your lookin at.


It is only 32 condo units with 2 small parking lots, 2 large parking lots and about 1500' of road. I estimated time would be about 1.5 hours to plow the whole thing. I estimated for 10 storms with sanding, last year i plowed 15 storms but only sanded three storms so i am relying on the lack of sanding to cover myself for any extra snow storms. This was the only way i could find to keep my price low enough to get the contract yet ensure i made money from it.


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## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

After 26 years of working in the snow biz (13 as employee, 13 as owner) I finally had my fill of missed dinners with friends and family. Just peddled the last plow truck this summer. Still sitting in a loader working for a friend, but that's coming to an end pretty quick here. 

Unbelievable the investment cost for setting up a new truck with front and rear plows. Even more unbelievable are rates not seen in our business for over 20 years. It's difficult to believe that operating costs have dropped that dramatically in the last 5 years. Even given the efficiencies realized with the expandable front blades and 16' expandable backblades, the numbers still don't make sense.

Insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

apkole said:


> After 26 years of working in the snow biz (13 as employee, 13 as owner) I finally had my fill of missed dinners with friends and family. Just peddled the last plow truck this summer. Still sitting in a loader working for a friend, but that's coming to an end pretty quick here.
> 
> Unbelievable the investment cost for setting up a new truck with front and rear plows. Even more unbelievable are rates not seen in our business for over 20 years. It's difficult to believe that operating costs have dropped that dramatically in the last 5 years. Even given the efficiencies realized with the expandable front blades and 16' expandable backblades, the numbers still don't make sense.
> 
> Insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result.


Eriely similar to construction rates is'nt it


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## Upchuck (Apr 7, 2009)

> It is only 32 condo units with 2 small parking lots, 2 large parking lots and about 1500' of road. I estimated time would be about 1.5 hours to plow the whole thing. I estimated for 10 storms with sanding, last year i plowed 15 storms but only sanded three storms so i am relying on the lack of sanding to cover myself for any extra snow storms. This was the only way i could find to keep my price low enough to get the contract yet ensure i made money from it.


What do you plow with? Seems pretty quick for 4 parking lots & 1500' of road.


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## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

> What do you plow with? Seems pretty quick for 4 parking lots & 1500' of road.


That's one of the problems, he has to underestimate his time and materials to get to a price that will win and then eat the difference of pray for no snow.!


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I plow with 2 06 D-Max's with 8' blades for now. I estimated for 6" or less of snow so it can be plowed fairly quickly but if there is a larger storm then i am porked. As jmacd stated i estimated for fewer storms and lower amounts of snow to keep my bid lower and more attractive. I snuck the sanding in for every storm to cover extra expenses, obviously i wont be sanding every storm. At 1st i gave this developement a much larger bid to cover myself for the average 15 storms and with sanding as needed and the bid was shot down very quickly. I found dropping the amount of snowfall but throwing in all the sanding did lower the price and make it more attractive but i can defer the sanding fund towards the extra plowing.


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## Upchuck (Apr 7, 2009)

> I plow with 2 06 D-Max's with 8' blades for now. I estimated for 6" or less of snow so it can be plowed fairly quickly but if there is a larger storm then i am porked. As jmacd stated i estimated for fewer storms and lower amounts of snow to keep my bid lower and more attractive. I snuck the sanding in for every storm to cover extra expenses, obviously i wont be sanding every storm. At 1st i gave this developement a much larger bid to cover myself for the average 15 storms and with sanding as needed and the bid was shot down very quickly. I found dropping the amount of snowfall but throwing in all the sanding did lower the price and make it more attractive but i can defer the sanding fund towards the extra plowing.


Does your contract say you only sand if needed after snowplowing. What if the lots & road need sanding w/o snowstorm like freezing rain . Is that extra?

Sounds like you covered yourself pretty well with 1st bid. 2nd bid might require a lot of praying.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Upchuck said:


> Does your contract say you only sand if needed after snowplowing. What if the lots & road need sanding w/o snowstorm like freezing rain . Is that extra?
> 
> Sounds like you covered yourself pretty well with 1st bid. 2nd bid might require a lot of praying.


The second bid states sanding is only as needed so it is up to me whether i drop sand and how much. If the lots are not icy then they get nothing. I have been watching the other contractor for the last several yrs to see how he has been doing it and i have listened to the HO's complaints so i have a good idea what i would be in for. My bid also states there has to be a minimum of 2" of snow before i drop a blade so if they want a dusting to be cleaned then that will be extra too. Freezing rain storms are extra also but as you know we normally only get 2-3 freezing rain storms per year. Basically what i did for the bid was i figured in the plowing of snow and then doubled it to cover sanding.


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## antnepi (Aug 26, 2008)

Snow Man: Check out Toughkenamon Twp. They are paying $90/hr for pickup w/plow and the hourly rates go up with the larger equipment you have.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

Woodchuck: why dont you forget about sand even being an option and sell them on salt only? or are they the typical customer that cries about what things cost...even though lawsuits and getting sued cost alot more.:furious: 

I've been fortunate enough to sell jobs by highlighting what a joke sand actually is and that it creates more problems then solutions, and natrually they're skeptical but i ask them to give me a shot and try my way the first couple storms, and if they're not happy, we'll go back to what they're "used to" which with sand is'nt much. After they look out of their windows and their lots and walks looking like winter never hit, and they see how clean the floors in the store/offices stay...the service sells itself from that point forward.:clap: Makes you look like a stud too since come spring time your properties dont look like Daytona beach and neither does the inside of the businesses.:w00t:


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## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

I use only salt, cost alot more and is very hard on equipment, corrosion wise. 

Getting to the point that salt is a hard sell just because it cost more than the plowing. Drug stores, doctors, insurance, churches etc. are the type properties that go for it. Then you have a contractor that quotes salt at cost or below cost and than bills out more than he puts down to make up the difference. 

Very hard to compete with that business plan!


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## digdeep516 (Jun 8, 2009)

jmacd said:


> I use only salt, cost alot more and is very hard on equipment, corrosion wise.
> 
> Getting to the point that salt is a hard sell just because it cost more than the plowing. Drug stores, doctors, insurance, churches etc. are the type properties that go for it. Then you have a contractor that quotes salt at cost or below cost and than bills out more than he puts down to make up the difference.
> 
> Very hard to compete with that business plan!


i agree... i like to throw straight salt all the time, sometimes a mix but only when the suppliers get backed up... your plan and mine are verry similar... go for the places that are high volume, high traffic areas, they dont seem to mind when they get the bill... infact i think that in all my years of plowing (im going on my 14th now if memory serves me right) ive never had a dispute over a commercial property... its the homeowners or independents that tend to give you trouble... like privately owned gas stations those are the worst, 2 years ago i took i guy to court and used his security video to prove that my drivers were dropping salt when he said they werent. But like jmacd said, those places tend to have no problem with you doing the right thing by them.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

IHI said:


> Woodchuck: why dont you forget about sand even being an option and sell them on salt only? or are they the typical customer that cries about what things cost...even though lawsuits and getting sued cost alot more.:furious:
> 
> I've been fortunate enough to sell jobs by highlighting what a joke sand actually is and that it creates more problems then solutions, and natrually they're skeptical but i ask them to give me a shot and try my way the first couple storms, and if they're not happy, we'll go back to what they're "used to" which with sand is'nt much. After they look out of their windows and their lots and walks looking like winter never hit, and they see how clean the floors in the store/offices stay...the service sells itself from that point forward.:clap: Makes you look like a stud too since come spring time your properties dont look like Daytona beach and neither does the inside of the businesses.:w00t:


The housing developement parking lot and road are dirt so salt will just make a mess. I do have one parking lot that does strictly salt but everyone is so damn cheap that they only want sand and even most complain about the cost of that. Typical everyone wants something for free.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

woodchuck2 said:


> Typical everyone wants something for free.


Kinda like construction:laughing:


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## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

worse than construction!


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## digdeep516 (Jun 8, 2009)

"can you do better"... is what i always seem to get, i politely tell them that i have a family... 2 daughters and a son, i charge what i charge because i do the right job... your more than welcome to get someone else but dont call me when that guy dosent come through in the clutch to do what was promised on a hand shake. More often than not i get that call and it always seems that when the "stuff" hits the fan, they seem to look at me as god himself and not the guy that they though was trying to screw them over 2 weeks ago... sometimes people just piss me off


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## Upchuck (Apr 7, 2009)

Supposed to get snow tonight. My brother in law had checked plow & truck last week. Said it was all set. Go to put plow on F350 & its moving slowly. Don't know who screwed oil plug in pump but they overdid it. 

Waste an hour getting it ready. Get home & check the weather. Good chance we're not plowing. I guarantee if I waited to get plow on tonight we would get enough snow to plow & I'd be :furious: in the yard at 3am.

Gotta love snow. Not.


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