# Switch won't turn off



## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

Our daughter's room had a light switch (turn on an outlet) go bad. We put a new switch in and now it won't turn off. 

I emailed my Electrician brother but haven't heard back yet. Any ideas? Bad HD switch maybe?


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

I'd imagine you must have a bad switch unless somehow you've got the power coming in and the switch leg contacting each other independent of the switch.

In the switch box, were you just dealing with a hot feed and switch leg out to the plug?


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

possible I supose, did the outlet get changed or messed with at all?


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Pull the switch out, the light should go off. Then touch the wires together to see if the lamp goes on and off. That will tell you if the switch is bad or if you just didn't wire it right.


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

Probably was one wire on the input, & two on the output. One lead goes to overhead, & one to 1/2 of the outlet. If you put the two on the hot side, it would make the outlet hot all the time.

Are you sure you have the lamp plugged into the right 1/2 of the outlet? One stays hot, & one operates off switch.

If you replaced the outlet also, you need to break the tab connecting the top & bott outlets, so the switch operates only 1/2 of outlet.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Red Adobe said:


> possible I supose, did the outlet get changed or messed with at all?


My first question as well.:thumbsup: Did this by chance get changed too? If so, there is a small tab that needs to be taken out.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

KennMacMoragh said:


> ... Then touch the wires together to see if the lamp goes on and off. ...


Maybe you meant something different, Kenn, but I sure don't recommend this as a trouble-shooting technique, if it means handling the wires while hot. Inexperienced folks should never work with live wires, IMO.

Breaker off. Separate the wires. Breaker on - what's the light do? Breaker off. Connect the wires - what's the light do?.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Railman said:


> ...
> Are you sure you have the lamp plugged into the right 1/2 of the outlet? One stays hot, & one operates off switch.
> ...


That's right, sometimes folks don't know that only one of the two receptacles in a duplex is switched. I've gotten phone calls about that when someone gets a new lamp and plugs it into the other side.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Maybe you meant something different, Kenn, but I sure don't recommend this as a trouble-shooting technique, if it means handling the wires while hot. Inexperienced folks should never work with live wires, IMO.
> 
> Breaker off. Separate the wires. Breaker on - what's the light do? Breaker off. Connect the wires - what's the light do?.


I suppose you're right, I use insulated handled tools. She still needs a voltage tester though even with the breaker off.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

Yes, he did the outlet as well so we'll have to pull it apart later. Thanks!


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

AmeliaP said:


> Yes, he did the outlet as well so we'll have to pull it apart later. Thanks!


Sounds like he forgot to break off the tabs/wings that split the function of the outlet.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Sounds like he forgot to break off the tabs/wings that split the function of the outlet.


That sounds exactly what the situation is. Seen it many times. Amazing how things become more apparent when there is more information.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

"Amazing how things become more apparent when there is more information."

It took me a while to beat the truth out of him.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Should we tell her which color tab to break or let her go with the 50-50 probability of getting it right?

Tom


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

Ya'll are assuming its tab.......

Also assuming that its modern wiring where you can tell a nuetral from hot by colar or tape that may have fell off.

also assuming its the hot thats switched

not good to assume


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

> Should we tell her which color tab to break or let her go with the 50-50 probability of getting it right?


You have plenty of time to discuss that. He still hasn't gotten back to working on this issue. :bangin:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

AmeliaP said:


> You have plenty of time to discuss that. He still hasn't gotten back to working on this issue. :bangin:


Then do it yourself, cut the brass one.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Then do it yourself, cut the brass one.


Make sure the power is off first.

Tom


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> Make sure the power is off first.
> 
> Tom


If you're a pussy.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> If you're a pussy.


I also work live almost all the time, but I know what things not to touch at the same time. For those like Amelia who aren't electricians, I recommend turning the MAIN breaker off so there isn't an issue with shared neutrals lighting you up. Inner, you know what I mean but how in less than a dozen paragraphs would we explain it? I've taken some nasty hits from neutrals.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

jb4211 said:


> It's funny you said that. That panel in the picture was done by someone from Canada: the previous HO. To be honest, in my 25 yrs, I've never come across a shared neutral until now.
> 
> Amatuer or not, I don't like it


What's not to like?


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm not an engineer, but if you have two 12gauge hot leads, hit can you have only one 12 gauge neutral?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

jb4211 said:


> I'm not an engineer, but if you have two 12gauge hot leads, hit can you have only one 12 gauge neutral?


If they are on a different end of the phase yes you can.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Neutrals carry over current. A properly balanced 110 volt system will run without a neutral. 

Tom


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

tjbnwi said:


> Until 2011 tying the breakers together was not required. If the AHJ has not adopted the 2011 NEC, it still would not be required. Tom


It is required in the 2008 nec that multi wire branch circuits must have simultaneous disconnect for ungrounded conductors. I think you mean 2005. Are there still any areas that still go by the 2005?


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

dielectricunion said:


> It is required in the 2008 nec that multi wire branch circuits must have simultaneous disconnect for ungrounded conductors. I think you mean 2005. Are there still any areas that still go by the 2005?


You're correct, 08. I know it was proposed for it, did not realize it made it in.

Could be, one of the local AHJ websites still list the '99 NEC as the adopted code. For some reason it gets missed in the website updates.

Tom


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

rselectric1 said:


> My first question as well.:thumbsup: Did this by chance get changed too? If so, there is a small tab that needs to be taken out.


Yep spit wired recepticle ......didn't they change the code on those?


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

TxElectrician said:


> I live in the county and most of my work is done outside of city jurisdictions. A good bit of the work I run across was installed or repaired by someone other than an electrician. First rule I learned when I moved here was to never assume anything was wired correctly.
> 
> I understand you were talking about the neutral load getting you in trouble, but I have seen jobs out here where all the white wires were connected to breakers and the blacks to the neutral buss
> 
> But hey - the lights came on so it must have been right:laughing:


yeah I've seen it too.....then they wonder why they end up with reverse polarity


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Inner10 said:


> Saves money, less work less wire. On a big job it can really help your bottom line.
> 
> I think not taking advantage of shared neutrals is amateurish.


I agree Inner10. To those who disagree you will find when fishing home runs from lets say a basement to an attic for new circuits 3 wire will be more cost and time effective. Especially if your charging by the box instead of T/M. You may not always have the room for multiple runs either. If sharing a neutral bothers that much have you requested your POCO to run an extra neutral off the transformer?


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

In this particular case, it was done to save money on materials. It was the installers own home and room to run the wires was not an issue.

But he failed to tie the two breakers together leaving the neutral energized when the HO shut down half the circuit, thinking he shut down the whole circuit.

That was one issue. There were several including having 12/3 being fed by 20a breakers, then stepping down to 14/2 in a junction box.


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## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

Inner10 said:


> Saves money, less work less wire. On a big job it can really help your bottom line.
> 
> I think not taking advantage of shared neutrals is amateurish.


think before you bid


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

It works! Thanks for the help! http://youtu.be/YtKk97G5Q3I


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