# Important message for sheetrockers



## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Do you need to hang little signs like this to avoid headaches later?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Not normally, but I should have a few times. I'd had vanity light tails stubbed out of the wrong side of the wall and stuff like that, for instance. Like any trade, there's guys who care and guys who don't. 

In your case, the chandelier lift is a pretty odd piece of equipment that many electricians might not even be famaliar with. Leaving a note for the rocker is a really good idea. Granted, the fact that you left the note doesn't necessarily mean that it will be followed. I give you about a 50% chance of needing to scrape out your own 1/4" clearance when you go back at finish. Writing that note in Spanish would give you a slightly better shot. :sad:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> Not normally, but I should have a few times. I'd had vanity light tails stubbed out of the wrong side of the wall and stuff like that, for instance. Like any trade, there's guys who care and guys who don't.
> 
> In your case, the chandelier lift is a pretty odd piece of equipment that many electricians might not even be famaliar with. Leaving a note for the rocker is a really good idea. Granted, the fact that you left the note doesn't necessarily mean that it will be followed. I give you about a 50% chance of needing to scrape out your own 1/4" clearance when you go back at finish. Writing that note in Spanish would give you a slightly better shot. :sad:


:laughing::clap: Agreed on all points.
My question is, do all of them have to
go in on the rough?
Seems like they could make them with
a rough can and leave the mechanism 
for the finish?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

neolitic said:


> Seems like they could make them with
> a rough can and leave the mechanism
> for the finish?


Eh... no. It's quite beneficial to get as much of a chandelier lift installed as possible during rough. They can be a pain to install in old work, which is essentially what you'd be asking a fella to do in that case.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

No espanol, sorry. I didn't even need to post about this but there hasn't been much action here lately. I'm lucky because I've never needed to install one of these in new work but I could imagine they'd be a pita. The nice part about installing them on the rough is I can see what I'm doing and by the time the trimout comes it'll mid-August and that can mean only one thing: blazing temperatures.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> Eh... no. It's quite beneficial to get as much of a chandelier lift installed as possible during rough. They can be a pain to install in old work, which is essentially what you'd be asking a fella to do in that case.


What I meant was do they manufacture one
with just a rough in can where the mechanism
is meant to go in on the finish.
From your reply, I take it that there is no
such beast.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

neolitic said:


> :laughing::clap: Agreed on all points.
> My question is, do all of them have to
> go in on the rough?
> Seems like they could make them with
> ...


They have an adjustable conduit fitting on them if they ever need to be readjusted later to make it flush to the ceiling. This lift is made my a company named Alladin and this one has a rating for up to 200lbs. The builder supplied me with this one but I think they're about $2-300 bucks.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

neolitic said:


> What I meant was do they manufacture one
> with just a rough in can where the mechanism
> is meant to go in on the finish.
> From your reply, I take it that there is no
> such beast.


No, the "mechanism" is a whole motor/gearbox thing-a-ma-jig that mounts in the attic, and you thread that cable through the necessary pullies down to the box.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

This looks like probably the one he used:


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Yes, the cable supports the weight of the fixture.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

And before anyone asks.... no I do not have any pictures of the actual motor in the attic.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

If someone messed around with (or removed) that "rough in weight", that could royally screw up your life if you have that cable threaded through pulleys in an inaccessible vaulted ceiling. If that's the case, I might try to stop in an "visit" the progress every once in a while I was in the neighborhood.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

I see, never actually saw the whole deal.
I have run across inexplicable stuff in
attics, maybe it's more explicable now.:laughing:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

neolitic said:


> I see, never actually saw the whole deal.
> I have run across inexplicable stuff in
> attics, maybe it's more explicable now.:laughing:


If you're ever in a church and see a rope or cable running through the attic, don't mess around with it. It's likely for a "candle lift", and quite likely has a burning candle hanging on the other end. It would be a bad thing to knock out a burning candle. :thumbsup:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> If you're ever in a church and see a rope or cable running through the attic, don't mess around with it. It's likely for a "candle lift", and quite likely has a burning candle hanging on the other end. It would be a bad thing to knock out a burning candle. :thumbsup:


Candles ain't the only thing that 
would fall if *I* was in a church! :laughing::laughing:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

neolitic said:


> Candles ain't the only thing that
> would fall if *I* was in a church! :laughing::laughing:


I mean doing a job, or whatever. :laughing:


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

Hey guys, this might be a stupid question:laughing: I have never seen a chandilier lift, what is its purpose? Just to be able to move the fixture up and down easily? For bulb changes?


Dave


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

dkillianjr said:


> Hey guys, this might be a stupid question:laughing: I have never seen a chandilier lift, what is its purpose? Just to be able to move the fixture up and down easily? For bulb changes?


Exactly. For bulb (lamp) changes and cleaning. It basically "plugs" and "unplugs" itself at the ceiling, and lowers by cable. You can adapt pretty much any fixture to a chandelier lift. If a fixture will be mounted in a hard to get at place, a chandelier lift should be considered. These have been standard fare in auditoriums and large (tall) commercial spaces since the dawn of electrical wiring. The older one's were normally hand cranked with a crank located in a nearby janitor's closet and the like. It's only been maybe the last 15 years that they've been reasonably priced enough for residential applications. I think they even make 2 circuit models now in a residential version for the larger chandeliers that take 2 circuits. The resi models normally have a keyswitch to operate them.


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## wireless (Nov 2, 2006)

Magnettica said:


> They have an adjustable conduit fitting on them if they ever need to be readjusted later to make it flush to the ceiling. This lift is made my a company named Alladin and this one has a rating for up to 200lbs. The builder supplied me with this one but I think they're about $2-300 bucks.


Try $7-800 bucks.


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## firemike (Dec 11, 2005)

They are pretty much standard around here in the McMansions and larger houses. Some of the bigger houses may have 5 or 6 lifts by the time you count the great room(s), foyer(s) dining rooms, front porch, etc. A couple of custom high-end builders I work with automatically put them on hanging fixtures that can't be reached with an 8 foot ladder when installed.

Too bad the don't put that much thought into the recessed fixtures that are 25 to 30 feet in the air.....


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

Where I live rw scale is $10. less than jw It is used and abused to be competive ,on electrician talk random was crying about some scab takin a maintence contract for less than his cost,turned out to be an ibew contractor from out of state , When davis bacon surveys are conducted even if the feds called a union contractor its A lower #, no offense but If you are in local 1 you arent aware of whats going on in the rest of the country ,0nly 40% of the work is done union!


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

the catfish said:


> The wiring job looks like hell in the first pic, staples anyone? What happened to pride?



I think you're a bit inexperienced when it comes to wiring light lifts. That wouldn't be surprising to me considering you're a big union guy. If you've ever wired a light lift you would know of the control wiring that comes pre-assembled with the unit. This is the wiring you see in the first pic.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

This job passed inspection on the first try, as it should.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

the catfish said:


> We are very cometitive with the non-union in this area, not to say we don't have lazy asses in the union, my men are very fast and very professional, that's why we have a stronghold in the market, especially in the multi-million dollar range. When people want quality they know where to turn. I can't imagine someone wiring a fixture lift, taking the time to leave a note, and then taking a pic to what, come back and staple the wires in the next joist space. Keep up the shoddy work, it keeps us busy with your call backs and the slop makes us look really good. Can wire a house just as fast and make it look alot better, local inspectors fail houses for slop around here.



Shoddy work? You wish buddy. It's people like you that have caused people to not work in a union. That's why less than 12% of the American workforce is unionized. 

I work for union shop alongside union electricians and they are some lazy mfer's. And how strong a union guy are these guys working alongside a non-union like me? Union guys normally are against that. 

If you're trying to be an advocate for workers going union, you sure go about it the wrong way.


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## the catfish (Nov 30, 2007)

actually I've probably wired more of these lifts than you, I know the wiring (it's not the control wiring) comes from the factory looking like hell but what about the wires that are doubled up going through the next floor joist, just hanging there? Not from the factory. Being a "big union" guy I wired the largest house in MO, 33,000 sq ft. Working on the next which will be 54,000 sq ft. Won't see any scabs on a job like that, quality is to important. Besides if the conact plate was installed properly there would'nt be any drywall issues, and I know this from experience.


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

Mag I am missing sompething here ,is nj a rite to work state ?


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Those are wires passing thru floor joists for the recessed lighting surrounding the center light fixture. 

Quality is important to me as well.


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## the catfish (Nov 30, 2007)

I would work with a non-union guy if given an opportunity, everyone must start somewhere, it's the union haters I don't get. Unions fought to get us 5 day work weeks, soc security, unemployment, health ins (which many workers have lost since the decline of unions), and overtime, which again many non-union shops have lost. I don't know about you all but I feel that most construction workers are underpaid considering the cost of living and the more the next guy makes, the more you can make. Benefits should not be looked at as part of the past, or something only the owners get. We all deserve to retire with dignity, in good health, not work until crippled and then left as a burden on our loved ones. I wish you well, and hope that someday you realize unions are to the benefit of all, not just a select few.


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## the catfish (Nov 30, 2007)

It sure doesn't seem like there is a staple between the joist hole and "the droop", which would be a violation, and if there is nice looking work. Come down to the lou sometime and I'll show you how to keep your wires straight, untwisted, and tight to the joist. It's guys who don't know their work looks bad that make the residential electricians look bad.


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

the catfish said:


> I would work with a non-union guy if given an opportunity, everyone must start somewhere, it's the union haters I don't get. Unions fought to get us 5 day work weeks, soc security, unemployment, health ins (which many workers have lost since the decline of unions), and overtime, which again many non-union shops have lost. I don't know about you all but I feel that most construction workers are underpaid considering the cost of living and the more the next guy makes, the more you can make. Benefits should not be looked at as part of the past, or something only the owners get. We all deserve to retire with dignity, in good health, not work until crippled and then left as a burden on our loved ones. I wish you well, and hope that someday you realize unions are to the benefit of all, not just a select few.


How many years you got inn?


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## the catfish (Nov 30, 2007)

15, how 'bout you?


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

32, how long you a rw ,Rws not somepthing you want to do all your life, I know people who brownosed till they were 45 yrs old to get an apprenticeship & upgrade ,passed up by relitives of officers etc , and quit and started non union shops, to get in.


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## the catfish (Nov 30, 2007)

It's sad to think that's how it works in other places, here we have excellent leadership, and like any business, leadership can make or break you.


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## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

cmec said:


> Where I live rw scale is $10. less than jw It is used and abused to be competive ,on electrician talk random was crying about some scab takin a maintence contract for less than his cost,turned out to be an ibew contractor from out of state , When davis bacon surveys are conducted even if the feds called a union contractor its A lower #, no offense but If you are in local 1 you arent aware of whats going on in the rest of the country ,0nly 40% of the work is done union!


 
There is a difference between crying and bitching. Just because I don't post down here much doesn't mean I don't come read here.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> I think you're a bit inexperienced when it comes to wiring light lifts. That wouldn't be surprising to me considering you're a big union guy. If you've ever wired a light lift you would know of the control wiring that comes pre-assembled with the unit. This is the wiring you see in the first pic.


 
Not talking about the colored wires. Talking about the NM that comes out of the j box, loops around towards the top and appears to go over the joist.

If you state it is attached within 12 inches of the box, I'll go get my eyes checked but it sure looks longer than that to me.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

That is a part of the assembly of the light lift. In fact, that wire goes directly to the toggle switch marked light to the 4" round box that also comes with the lift. The other toggle switch is marked motor. This is exactly what it looks like when you take it out of the box. Maybe you have an issue with UL.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

You are saying that white NM comes prewired into that box?

Wow, what do they send with it. 10 feet, 50 feet, 100 feet?

Regardless, it still must be tagged down within 12 inches of the box, which as I have stated before, does not seem to be the case. It is still NM and as such, it must adhere to the code concerning NM installation.


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## Timster (Feb 1, 2006)

This is just a late night rambling, so take it with a grain of salt...

Here in San Francisco, the union electricians basically know only one task or thing. It might be conduit bending, lights, wiring, plugs, etc... Many union journeymen cannot even wire a GFCI.

99% of union electricians barely know how to wipe their rear ends. 

I have very close friends who are union electricians, but they would never work for me, even if they paid me instead. I am pretty sure it is the same back east.

Plus, it takes a certain kind of man to eschew all the free holidays, and crap that unions provide. Get your own money.

Unions are basically for men looking for a steady living, in my honest opinion, and I left a union. I am sure they have their place, *but for a union guy to think that a non union guy knows less is pretty retarded.*
Comparing union to non-union : NON-union has 1000% more well rounded knowledge in both real world, and applicable trade standards...

All day, son.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Timster said:


> This is just a late night rambling, so take it with a grain of salt...
> 
> Here in San Francisco, the union electricians basically know only one task or thing. It might be conduit bending, lights, wiring, plugs, etc... Many union journeymen cannot even wire a GFCI.
> 
> ...


I really don't want to start a war thread but I feel the need to address a few of your points, peacefully I hope.

first, I do understand you situation with the specialized guys. I have heard of it and see your point but they should have all had a well rounded training that does teach them the entire trade. I do not know if that is so though.

BUT in the midwest where I ply my trade, we do not specialize and I run the gamut from dirt dogging to service of Telco and computer network systems. It is harder to do this as I must seek continual training to keep myself able to do that wide a range of work but I enjoy it and continue to do so.

Next: free holidays? what are those?

In my contract, there are no PAID holidays not vacation or any paid time off. NONE, so get off that box. Just as with the open shops, there are differences across the country.

Now, I'm not sure what


> and crap that unions provide


is referring to but I do enjoy med insurance and a retirement plan. Not sure accepting those would be considered un-American since that is what has been the topic of discussions as arguments and promises extolled by every political party for the past10, 20, or more years past. Apparently this is something everybody wants for some strange reason. Don't be upset because I do have a little of each.



> Comparing union to non-union : NON-union has 1000% more well rounded knowledge in both real world, and applicable trade standards...


I can assure you it is not this way anyplace other than your mind. There are great mechanics on both sides of the door but in my area, I can assure you, the union training is much preferred. Not trying to bash the non-union guys but their schooling does not hold a candle to the union schooling. Regardless of that, a smart man can become a great electrician in either forum. School is only one part of what it takes to make a great electrician and it is only the beginning.

Sorry to hear you have had such a poor experience with union guys but it sounds like there may be a lot behind the rant that does not involve the guys themselves.

*



but for a union guy to think that a non union guy knows less is pretty retarded.

Click to expand...

*You do notice you have done exactly that only in reverse, right? That is just as lacking intelligence as your statement. Do you know what irony is?


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## kingsmurf (Apr 19, 2008)

*kingsmurf*

I have been in Unions...Steam Fitters Union...to get an apprenticeship in plumbing/heating/AC etc

Also have been in the IBEW . .though I was in the electrcial sign industry then, and not open to attend their trade electrical schools

I have been an NON-Union electrician for 15 plus years...and am going to take my C-10 license exam in Early July as I finish school

from that view point I say this . . .I would wish to live long enough to see Trade schools created for our young people intersted in the electrical 
field . . . .manned by a good mixture of both union and non-union 
tradesmen / owner operators teaching . . .THE TRADE . . .from the best of all worlds

the Union electrician is a worker in an trade with the best benefit of having an established school

the open shop electrician is a worker in an free market business..his future
is entirely in HIS hands . . .good , bad , or ugly

The open shop OWNER/ ELECTRICIAN is both trade worker and business man . .an unique collection of experience,inventiveness,creativity,marketing
pave the way for potential profits never found in the first . . .possible in the 
second . . he may well risk all and still fail

a trade school established to teach first and foremost the TRADE..then exposures to all of the above paths and choices . . .would..in my opinion
so so very well serve our young people wishing to enter our trade

here in my area . .the only formal education in the working electrical trade is in the Union . .I state a fact concerning availability . .not preference

the one NON-union electrical trade school ...when attempting to open and establish itself faced such serious opposition from the Unions . .the Unions spent millions in court over the years to stop the school from ever opening . . . . .
. . and it took . . .Walther Electric . .going all the way to the Supreme Court to establish the school . .which operated for years . .and as I stated above . .they risked profit or loss . . .they eventually closed without detaching the Trade school from the business . .so both dissappeared
. .so so unfortunate . .considering the need and the effort

and when qualifying the bids from non-union electrical companies ( Union companies were greatly out of competition..and further entailed unwanted problems ) . . I generally leaned to the one company that HAD structured training . . .as an better value in price over theoir competitors


Oh to have trades schools for our youth . .with politics aside..and exposure to all choices available for the Paths forward


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

kingsmurf: I cannot seem to find any SCOTUS decisions with Walther; walther electric; walther electrci training committee as either a plaintiff defendant or appellant.

any more info you can provide on this situation. I would like to read the SCOTUS decision on it. Original state, year of decision, other party to the suit; anything?


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

Nap are you a contractor or do you work out of the hall?


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

cmec said:


> Nap are you a contractor or do you work out of the hall?


 
You think I'm crazy? 


I work for a guy.


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## kingsmurf (Apr 19, 2008)

*kingsmurf*

Nap. . .Walther closed in 2003 in December . .their battle for the non-union State Approved trade apprenticeship program was an court battle of news worthy proportions . .I was around then and worked political campaigns at that time with the . .then ...owner

I will see if I can find out under what name the case was . .and year


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

NAP

I never have had a signatory contractor tell me how great the IBEW is , Never had somone from NECA try to get me to sighn,the comments have always been ,theres a darn good living being open shop if its done right. 

IF it was such an ideal system whys 60% of the electrical work done non union? The IBEW has changed some things in the last 30 yrs like portibility, and recipocation of penson time between some locals,ask the tramps about it, but 2 differnt scales for res and inside, screwing people on upgrades ,nepotism, and a small contractor cant work with tools unless he has a card ,and pays h&w on himselfe when his wife already has hospitalization ,or he is employing somone out of the hall, While on the other hand a big corporation can have 2 ceos and run double vested HONEYWELL or HONEYWILL HIREING HELP OUT OF CRAIGS LIST, but if myselfe or a member sighns letter of assent a we are bound to do all work union. almost sounds like the large corporations are useing the union to controll the help and keep them from prospering.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

> =cmec;437773]NAP
> I never have had a signatory contractor tell me how great the IBEW is


well, the owner of this company ,http://www.miscor.com/ was a half owner of one of the larger EC's in my area. During the dot.com crap, he sold his company to:http://www.quantaservices.com/. His company was one of the first 4 compnaies Quanta bought when they incorporated. He left after his contractual oobligation expired and as soon as his non-compete ended he opened his new EC business. He chose to be union, both times. Now, this guy can be a real screamer and would not be union if he beilieved it did no bebfit him but he is union. As a matter of fact, the company listed on his site (Ideal Consolidated) is a union mechanical contracting business he bought quite recently.

There is nothing that requires a union contractor to remain union when it comes time to renew their contract with the IBEW. They can leave, but they don't. Apparently they believe there are more benefits than costs.



> Never had somone from NECA try to get me to sighn,the comments have always been ,theres a darn good living being open shop if its done right.


Not sure how much money John has (owner of Miscor) but it is well into the 7 figure range. 



> IF it was such an ideal system whys 70% of the electrical work done non union?


didn't say it was ideal, just that I believe the ibew/neca coordination provides for a symbiotic relationship that each party benefits from.

The IBEW has changed some things in the last 30 yrs like portibility, and recipocation of penson time between some locals,ask the tramps about it, but


> 2 differnt scales for res and inside,


those are two totatlly different types of work. Not trying to knock the resi guys but they just simply do not have the training the commercial/indutrial guys have. They are two very dfferent markets as well..



> screwing people on upgrades


Not sure what you mean here

,


> nepotism,


and the problem with that is? I believe nepotism is actually a good thing. When I went to work fro the same company my father worked for most of my life, I felt I HAD to perform well and to be respectable. Nepotism at its best.



> and a small contractor cant work with tools unless he has a card


Huh? My boss works with the tools anytime he wants. As a matter of fact, ther is fewer limitations on what he can do than there is on me.



> ,and pays h&w on himselfe when his wife already has hospitalization


do you have kids? Many don't but their tax payments still go to support the schools in their area or state. That is how a "pool" system works.



> While on the other hand a big corporation can have 2 ceos and run double vested HONEYWELL or HONEYWILL HIREING HELP OUT OF CRAIGS LIST, but if myselfe or a member sighns letter of assent a we are bound to do all work union. almost sounds like the large corporations are useing the union to controll the help and keep them from prospering.


I can't speak to this situation. I have not researched it enough.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Assuming non-union workers are working on non-union jobs... what are some of the penalties for a union contractor for hiring non-union labor? 

And are the penalties similar for union hacks being sent to work on non-union jobs?


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## nywoodwizard (Sep 10, 2005)

Magnettica said:


> Assuming non-union workers are working on non-union jobs... what are some of the penalties for a union contractor for hiring non-union labor?
> 
> And are the penalties similar for union hacks being sent to work on non-union jobs?


Of course not.
If you're non Union on a Union job ,hired by a union or non union shop,you got to dummy up, lie, tell them you left you card at home, get the owner in trouble and fined ,yourself in trouble or sent home..... But a union guy is allowed to work where ever he pleases. I almost confused myself there for a minute .:bangin:


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## the catfish (Nov 30, 2007)

Timster said:


> This is just a late night rambling, so take it with a grain of salt...
> 
> Here in San Francisco, the union electricians basically know only one task or thing. It might be conduit bending, lights, wiring, plugs, etc... Many union journeymen cannot even wire a GFCI.
> 
> ...


 I worked non-union before I got in and I'll say from experience in this area, most guys in the non-union field are there because the union shop won't have them due to appearence, criminal background, or lack of education and willingness to continue it. IBEW offers free classes from the simplest math classes to the most advanced photo voltaics courses. Contractors stay in NECA because it gives them access to the most highly skilled, professional electricians in our local industry. We constantly get work awarded back to us after some scab outfit comes in with some cheap bit and the generals quickly realize they get what they pay for. The smart electricians join the union for the better pay and benifits that they know they are worth. It's the uneducated pool of workers that don't believe they are worth more, and alot of times they are just lifelong helpers, only as smart as there boss's guidance, and quite frankly, I'm glad guys like that stay where they are, because when their boss retires early and they realize they built his wealth, with nothing set was aside for the worker, it is the workers that will get to beg for a job at the next non-union shop hoping for 1/2 of what they made when they were younger men, in better health.


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## the catfish (Nov 30, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Assuming non-union workers are working on non-union jobs... what are some of the penalties for a union contractor for hiring non-union labor?
> 
> And are the penalties similar for union hacks being sent to work on non-union jobs?


 
In the midwest IBEW contractors have an organization that they belong to called NECA. With their cumulative bargaining power agreements are reached with the IBEW as to work rules. Most written by both sides together. Usually in the agreement it would state that all electrical work shall be installed by a signatory contractor, done with IBEW labor. It would not be allowed to let non-union subs then come in and undercut the pay and benefits union men and women have worked so long and hard to achieve. I wonder if the teamsters were still as strong as they were 20+ years ago, if they would'nt have more impact on the current gasoline crisis like the one in the eighties when they shut down so many trucking arteries untill congress was forced to do something. Now more than ever it's a dog eat dog world and were all starting to look alot more like milkbones.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Yeah well the only reason Im not in the union yet is because I dont have an uncle or a father to get me in there to do nothing all day. Not much work for the union guys around here and there's a reason for that! If you're not someones nephew, son, or grandson, these cushy positions don't exist. So, I've taken it upon myself to get a better education in the field by going to school so one day soon I can open my own business and make my own money for retirement. I'll make my own collective bargaining agreement, thank you.


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## the catfish (Nov 30, 2007)

Yeah, and maybe work on your work quality a little. You know this is an electrical forum, viewed by electricians. Look at your photo with, I assume you, in front of three panels all looking similar in size. If I could'nt have made all three level, I would look into a trade that I sucked a little less at. Keep up the nice work.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Apparently you need to look into an english class. Although I did not wire and mount those panels, they are all level. The middle "panel" is actually an enclosure that houses a 200 amp, 240 volt, 3-phase contactor controlling the lighting panel on the left. It's a few inches deeper than the other panels beside it. I had it open to show a new guy to the electrical trade how it worked. We had some time at the end of the day to milk the clock so I thought it would be nice to teach the young guys coming up the way the older guys taught me on my way up. You don't have a problem with that do you?


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## Timster (Feb 1, 2006)

nap said:


> I really don't want to start a war thread but I feel the need to address a few of your points, peacefully I hope.
> 
> first, I do understand you situation with the specialized guys. I have heard of it and see your point but they should have all had a well rounded training that does teach them the entire trade. I do not know if that is so though.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I was ranting, I guess. You bring up good points, and both union and non-union have their positives and negatives, of course. Shucks, I am even trying to get some kids I know into the local electrical union here.

Not for me, though.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

We did a gym with manual lifts from the 50's . They maintenance guys stopped using the lifts years ago but we had to change the ballasts and had to drop the fixture at least a few feet. Half the cables were stuck somewhere along the line and some of the fixtures would have come crashing to the ground if we were not on the scaffold to catch them. ... 4 hour job took about 20 hours.

I'd like to see these new lifts 30 years from now and see how they are functioning, see if they kill anybody.


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## Waco (May 22, 2008)

The ones I have done were all accessible in the attic, so I just set the box higher than the bottom of the trusses and cut my own opening after the drywallers were gone.

I never found a better way of doing it.


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