# Painting Estimate



## NJ Kid (Jan 20, 2006)

Hi Guys,

I'm new to this buisness and I was recently offered a painting job in Belmar NJ. Its a 6400 sq ft job and I not sure how to come up with a price, any help would be greatly appreciated


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

NJ, first of all welcome!

I'd suggest that you take a look through some of the previous posts. This is a topic that has been done to death. If you have some questions related to what has already been posted, you're more likely to get some constructive suggestions.


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

Hi NJ
Welcome to the site!

Decks is right on with his advice
It's better to do a search first
There's tons of info in the older posts
And a few different ways to estimate
Then if you have a specific question, reply in that thread, or post up a new one


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## NJ Kid (Jan 20, 2006)

thanks guys, 

I have a specific qustion whats the advantage to pricing by the sq ft or pricing by the job that was somthing I couldnt determine from the old posts I've looked at. Any help would be appreciated:help::help:


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

NJ Kid said:


> ...whats the advantage to pricing by the sq ft or pricing by the job...


Well...yeah that's about it
Some guys like the sq ft, some guys like the job
The debate still rages
:boxing:
:bangin:

There's no cut and dry answer
Personally, I mix the two
I use both when coming up with a price, and bid by the job


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## dwbrooks (Oct 2, 2005)

First off I'd like to say thanks for all the great advice and all that I've learned through this forum.

I've noticed that anytime someone asks for help with an estimate theres always a fair amount of replys stating "Only you can decide what you need to make to do the job". In some aspects this is true, only you know your overhead. On the other hand the market determines what you can charge for your services. 

Bidding is competitive. You can sell your services and show reason why a customer if better off paying more for the quality of service you provide, but in the end theres still a range of price that is considered reasonable.

You cannot completly determine your estimate on what you feel you should make or need to make to cover your expenses. Part of running a business is controlling overhead which keeps your pricing in line with others.

I think when most people ask for help estimating they're just looking for a guideline. Market determines the price of a service or good not a individual provider of a service or good. I do understand that pricing also changes among the differant regions of the country or even within states. 

My point being the going market rate for a service determines what you can charge not your overhead. Overhead is the companys responsibilty to control and therefore make it competive. The market is largely what controls your pricing.


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## donb1959 (Dec 9, 2004)

> I've noticed that anytime someone asks for help with an estimate theres always a fair amount of replys stating "Only you can decide what you need to make to do the job". In some aspects this is true, only you know your overhead. On the other hand the market determines what you can charge for your services.
> 
> Bidding is competitive. You can sell your services and show reason why a customer if better off paying more for the quality of service you provide, but in the end theres still a range of price that is considered reasonable.


The truth is only you can know what it takes to stay afloat and turn the profit that you want. For instance contractor A may need only to make $300.00 per day to meet his cost and turn a profit, while contactor B will need to make $500.00 per day to come to the same end.

The first, most important part of bidding is to know your cost of doing business, then adding onto that what you want your profit margin to be. I don't know what anothers contractors cost is, so I can't base my price on their cost. The market does to an extent determine what you can charge. But my market may not be the same as another contractors. I've found that some can afford me, and others can't. I am higher than many of my competetors, but I also offer more, some customers are willing to pay the differance, some are not.

So in summary, I know what I need to make per day, regardless of what the market will bear, my customers are the ones willing to afford this price. I do get turned down on my price alone, but I know that I'm competitive for what I offer. Hope this helps. By the way, if you want to message me I will be glad to help any way I can, because I understand that when you first start out estimating can be very confuseing.


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## Brian (Jun 9, 2004)

The market determines pricing only if the business owner allows it. The business owner should determine his pricing based on his cost of doing business, profit and wage desires, etc. He cannot be arbitrary in his decisions, but he also shouldn't allow the market to dictate. 

How well he can sell at that pricing is a different issue, and involves many things--the company image, the quality of work, the intangible values offered, and more.

The business owner determines the market he seeks. If he seeks a market that is price conscious, then he has decided to allow the market to determine his pricing, i.e., he competes on price. If he seeks a market that is value conscious, then he competes on issues other than price.

Regardless, the owner ultimately determines his pricing by the market he seeks to serve and his ability to deliver.

Brian Phillips


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## dwbrooks (Oct 2, 2005)

Brian you diffentally bring up a good point that I had not looked at. 

The only thing that I dont agree with is this. 

You cant tell me that you dont consider a competitors price whatsoever when you bid a job. 

You talk about differant markets.....

Low Ballers Market= Apartment repaints or what not- require very little time and not very skilled labor. Low paying, but minimal labor expense.

High End Repaints= Skilled Labor and longer period of time per job- High paying, High labor expense..

No matter what market you shoot for your always going to have some competition and therefore there is going to be some price range set.


Okay so you want to charge me $1000 to paint a bedroom, because your overhead is so high, you only come out makeing $200. Your competitor that does equally nice work will do it for $500, because he controls overhead. 
No how many jobs are you going to get. Competition determines price, price can be influenced by your sales skills but ultimately price is the biggest factor.


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

Good debate

I believe you should always know your competition's prices

I believe they should not determine yours

Your price may be the biggest factor in some potential client's mind
That should not be your target client

There will always be the "Drunk Guy With a Brush Painting Service" who just needs some cash for the weekend, therefore you can always see a lower bid on a job

If a company needs 350 a day for your overhead, but to be lower than (or equal to) the competition it must bid jobs out at 345 a day, then they are better off staying home

Either the overhead must be lowered, or the price must come up
If the price comes up than there must be some reasons why a client would pay a little more for the company's services
A little added value goes a long way

In the $1000/$500 example, the two contractors are not competitors
A 500/550 or 900/1000 would be more realistic

Some people are more than willing to pay a extra 10%, or more, if they can see the value of it

If a person gets two $1000 bids and one $500 bid, and goes with the $500 bid, well God bless'em and good luck with that
You really don't want that guy as a client anyway


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

An example:
All kind of painters are quoting $250-$300 per room trying to get the job.
Don't care. If our numbers come up at $700 how does my competition 
affect pricing?
If the closing rates are where there supposed to be, why should I care 
how other painters run their businesses?
I just saw a repaint this morning. It will be around $20.000 I think.
He had one quote come in at $4500.00. He thought it was funny.
The competition is 100% irrelevant.


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## donb1959 (Dec 9, 2004)

I'm not privy to what my competetion charges, even if I knew what they were chargeing on any given job it would not mean much because I don't know what paint they're useing, how much they're paying their men, what profit margin they are operating with.

My competetion in no way affects the way I bid a given job. I have however seen the guys that charge $300.00 for a bedroom repaint, walls and trim. How those paticular contractors (and I use the word loosely here) stay in business I'm not sure.

I earnestly believe that if more paint contractors were to look at themselves as skilled craftsman and charge accordingly we would all be in much better shape. If some one charges me 5K to build a deck onto my home, is it unreasonable to expect the same homeowner to pay 5-6K for an interior or exterior repaint?

Paint contractors here are looked upon for the most part as unskilled labor, I don't subscribe to that notion. If we're so unskilled why is it that homeowners can make such a mess of things when they attempt to do it themselves? Would they attempt to rewire a garage themselves or install a heatpump?

If your'e going to go into the paint contracting business go in to make money like all other trades out there, if you're going in to make ends meet...sometimes, why not just be an employee?


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## Brian (Jun 9, 2004)

I can honestly say I don't give the competition's price a second thought when I look at a job. I know the moment I walk in they will have a price, or can get one, that will be half of mine.

I give them my price. I close enough to keep my crews busy and make the kind of money I want to make. 

Nearly 100% of the time I am specifying a job that is unique. And when the job itself isn't unique, my company always is. I offer the customer more, and as a result, I can charge more. I have chosen to focus on the market that looks for value.

Price is much more of a concern to the contractor than the customer. Too many contractors think that low price wins. If you think that way you will prove yourself correct.

Brian Phillips


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## Brian (Jun 9, 2004)

I should add that I once had 5 crews. I ran around all day giving estimates, putting out fires, etc. I was stressed to the max and my supervisors made more than I did.

I increased my prices about 35% and my closing rate stayed the same. I dropped to 2 crews and we do almost the same volume. I have to sell fewer jobs, which means I have to give fewer estimates. I kept my 2 best crews, so I have almost zero problems and headaches. I make nearly 3 times the money I did before, and I typically work on my contracting business 10 to 15 hours a week.

I made 2 fundamental changes. I learned to sell more effectively, which translated to better educating my customers. And I increased my prices significantly.

Brian Phillips


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## PlainPainter (Dec 29, 2004)

Does anyone think that the economy has anything to do with all the
low-ballers lately? I looked at a room recently 14x16, with barnboard
walls - and ceiling beams - my estimate came to be $800 for one coat
including all the repair work for the walls - and the homeowner was
shocked. A good interior paint job will last 10 years easily, that would
be only $80/yr! But if my competition priced the rooms anywhere from
$900 - $1300 - then they would think I was a bargain. I think I am
a professional - but I think lots of paint contractors out there are ignorant
idiots. And they are the ones that are destroying the market. Homeowners are just there taking advantage of the situation. 

-Plainpainter


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

PlainPainter said:


> Does anyone think that the economy has anything to do with all the
> low-ballers lately? I looked at a room recently 14x16, with barnboard
> walls - and ceiling beams - my estimate came to be $800 for one coat
> including all the repair work for the walls - and the homeowner was
> shocked...


I think that's more of a homeowner not being informed
I get that often
Usually it's a case where the H/O thinks it's gonna be 2 or 3 hundred bucks for some reason

Sometimes it's because "my cousin will do it for $300"
Or "I could do it myself but..." (which never ceases to amaze me when they repeat that over and over while you're measuring...oh so you could/would do it yourself so....I should give you a discount? What? Why do you keep saying that? you could be a professional painter? Thanks for saying my years of experience aren't worth crap to you...oops, sorry 'bout that < rant off >)
Well, there's a reason you called me...
You don't trust your cousin to do it right or you really can't do it right yourself

If it's because they got 2 or 3 other quotes for $300...then the customer is calling some pretty cheesy outfits, and this guy's not really a potential customer of yours

I must agree that low-balling hacks destroy the market, and the integrity of the profession

Truth is, we need to take every opportunity available (and create some of our own), to educate the consumer


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

PlainPainter said:


> I think lots of paint contractors out there are ignorant
> idiots. And they are the ones that are destroying the market. Homeowners are just there taking advantage of the situation.


Profound statement of the day! :thumbup: 
Laugh because it's funny, cry because it's true.


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## Paul Burns (Jan 17, 2006)

*Change the vision*

Don't ever worry about how low your price needs to be to get jobs/work.

Concentrate on finding out what is the MOST you can charge and still keep closing the amount of leads that you need to close to keep busy. And NEVER stop testing, or getting better, so that you can charge even more.

Or, "Turn the telescope around." It might change your life.

I"ve seen a lot of contractors that know the minimum that they need to charge to stay in business. And that is usually what they charge,

I have yet to meet a contractor that knows, tests, or ever even thinks about what their limits are of how MUCH they can charge. We have been constently testing and using the HIGHEST price for about 10 years now. I'm sure their are some out there other than us that do this, I just have never heard of any of them.

Actually, there are a lot of things like this, that most do opposite. Maybe the contractors that know these things, stay quiet.

Paul


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## Brian (Jun 9, 2004)

Paul,

It's good to see you here. I think you'll find this board to your liking. I do.

Brian Phillips


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## cutnroller (Jan 20, 2006)

i think the key to the whole issue of how much influence should other painters prices affect your own is:

if you are setting prices based on what _you_ think is fair or necessary, _you_ are in control of the situation. to put too much stock in what others are doing is opening yourself up to more variables and limiting your control of the situation.

i think another good point i see coming up is the ability to be flexible. see the situation for what it is and set your price accordingly. being locked into a system too rigidly may limit your ability to adapt to the situation at hand.

just my 2 cents. cheers :thumbup:


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