# Are 40+ year shingles worth the money



## shopman (Feb 27, 2006)

I am getting ready to put a new roof on my house this spring. I would think the bulk of the expense of putting a new roof on is labor. My house+ garage is 70' * 30' (5.5"/12" pitch hip roof). I am not worried about the cost of the materials, I would rather pay an extra $1500 in materials if I can get 15 more years out of the roof. My question is do 40 year shingles really really last 40 years? I dont mind paying the extra money if they will last twice as long.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

Suprising labor is actually reasonable on roofing its the materials, permits/landfill, etc...and all the unexpected things that pop up that are the spendy part.

Anyways, if your not worried about buying a better product, make sure the crew tackles other areas to help make the roof live longer-meaning proper air is getting supplied into the attic space as well as proper exhausting of the air so you dont cook your new shingles. I dont sell many roof because I will only bid them to be perfect-everybody else could care less about air flow and ensuring the products last so maturally they're ALOT cheaper since they dont mess with soffits/chutes/etc...

Warranties are touch and go, as with everything else in this world the manufacturer will find every reason no to stand behind it and will often place blame on the installation or 100 other reasons no to cover you. I personally install mostly 30-35yr shingles, they're thicker than the cheap stuff but not as hard to work with or handle as the longer warranty period stuff-typically we charge alot more for labor if dealing with 45+yr shingles since often we have to cut them with saws instead of a razor blade to to being so darn thick/heavy.

The area under your shingles will determine the longevity, I've seen 25yr shingles outlast newly installed 35-40yr shingles due to circulation not being as it should.


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

Where are you from will determine a lot of factors.

I know here in Dallas we go through roofs all the time, hail, winds etc...


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

I don't think 40 year shingles are worth the extra $$$ because like Cole said roofs get replaced often, and usually not due to age. Your best bet, if you want to spend extra on your roof, is to focus on your underlayments and your flashings.


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## shopman (Feb 27, 2006)

I live in Southern MD, we dont get too much wind. The winters might get down to 10 F on a cold extreme, and the summers hit around 98 F on a extreme hot day. Its a hip roof with 8"*8" plastic vents on the back side. No vents on the side hips. I was going to have a ridge vent installed (I think it looks better, and it would give more venting then the current vents. I also plan of having the existing shingles torn off.

The soffits were not vented when I bought the house, the insulation was pushed up tight. I installed the styrofoam pieces to push the insulation back to give good ventilation in the attic, this is a hip roof so it was alot of styrofoam pieces.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Don't mix your ventilation systems... I do not think a ridge vent would suffice from what you described... just not a long enough ridge line... there usually aren't on hip roofs. Your best bet is to install additional mushroom vents. *Mixing ventilation systems will cause more harm than good. Do not mux mushrooms and ridge vent.* Also do not install a ridge vent unless you have equal or greater intake ventilation. This usually means a continuous soffit vent or 4x8 vents spaced ~5' apart.

Do the calculations at rollvent.com or airvent.com


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

The 40 yr Landmarks are worth getting if you have potential for moss builup. The 40's are algae resistant. Depending on location you can get or order 30 yr algae resistant. I think your price difference will be a little closer than $1500. 
Either venting will work fine, but don't use both or too many because it will actually reverse the effect. It can suck snow and water in the vents. Also make sure your vent holes are at least 8x8 and 12" down from the peak. I usually cut the 10x10, but I don't think it is needed. There are formulas for calculating this, and the websites Grumpy mentioned may have it.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

I didn't know that cert put ar standard in their 40's. I am pretty sure you have to pay extra and specifically request AR in IL. However TAMKO has AR standard in all their shingles (available in IL). 

MJW you cut intake vents in the roof? I never do this especially near the edge of the roof due to snow and ice back up, not to mention I have seen many many cases where there is enough snow on the roof covering the vents, which means you'd have no intake. Always place the intake in the soffit when ever possible. I know sometimes it's not possible, and that's when I install mushroom vents instead of ridge.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

several years ago, the shingle warranties changed. Shingles that were 25 yrs changed to 30 yr. 30 yr changed to 40 yr.
IMO money should not be directed to underlayment ( unless in valley or along eave ) or flashings, which galvanized steel will hold up for decades and also any flashing that is considered, should be for asthetic value only. When it comes time for a new roof, the roofer will more then likely try to sell you on new flashing anyway. Shingles are known to not last long regardless of what one gets. They dont hold up like they use to.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Red, I use ice shield as a secondary flashing in all areas to recieve a metal flashing. I also meant choose 30# over 15# felt. Obviously this slightly costs more in time and material, not much but a little bit. In addition aluminum flashing is standard for my area, so if someone wanted to upgrade their flashings, they'd go to a galvanized or even copper, both of which obviously costs more than aluminum and copper definetly looks better than aluminum. Plumbing flashings are commonly the rubber boot, but I use lead which costs more than rubber.

So my point is they will get a better roof if they upgrade their flashings and underlayments for only a few hundred bucks.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

I didnt mean anything Grumpy, just stating my opinion.
Your upgades are not realy upgrades, you are just providing a better roof than those that are not.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

red_cedar said:


> Your upgades are not realy upgrades, you are just providing a better roof than those that are not.


You are absolutely right, but on an even playing field my better roof would cost more than the lesser roof quoted by the other, which is I guess really what my point was to "spend your money on upgraded underlayments and flashing." I guess I should have elaborated in the first place.


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## shopman (Feb 27, 2006)

I will look at that site and try to determine which type of venting system will give me more ventilation. You Are correct Grumpy, because I have a hip roof I do not have that much ridge, but I would still think it would give me more ventilation then the mushroom vents. I will try to calculate it out. I was going to try to use the ridge vent if possible because I think it looks much nicer then the mushroom vents, but if the mushroom vents give me more ventilation then I will have that installed.

I have read you should not mix venting systems, but I thought they that rule mostly pertained to if you have gable vents and a ridge vent on a standard roof. The air would short circuit and just go in the gable vent and out the ridge vent. Because I have a hip roof, could I have a ridge vent down the center with no mushroom vents on the front or back of the house, but have one mushroom vent on eack side of the hip? I just want the roof to look as nice as possible.

Thanks for all your comments, this is a big investment for me and I just want to make sure the job is done right. I basically want to specify how I want it done and hopefully the contractor will agree if I can get my facts straight from talking with you guys. I will be posting several other questions in the next week or so, thanks again for your help.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

HIP VENT! Check it out.


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## shopman (Feb 27, 2006)

I think I said my vents wrong, the current vents on my house are square plastic 8" * 8 " vents, not mushroom vents.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

I am not at all a fan of hip vents. I fear the possibility of water penetration is much too great! I won't risk it.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

I have used them many times, never a problem. Dont knock it before you try it.


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

Grumpy said:


> I am not at all a fan of hip vents. I fear the possibility of water penetration is much too great! I won't risk it.


See I feel the same way.

I am going to try them one day though.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

AaronB. said:


> Dont knock it before you try it.


There's alot of things I haven't tried that I won't try because I do not have confidence in the product. I don't gamble with my customer's homes. I don't have confidence in the product therefore I refuse to try them until proven otherwise.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

Grumpy said:


> There's alot of things I haven't tried that I won't try because I do not have confidence in the product. I don't gamble with my customer's homes. I don't have confidence in the product therefore I refuse to try them until proven otherwise.


Same here, I personally have a hip and I thought about trying the ridge/hip vent system for a split second and decided long term risk possiblity was too great for water/snow infiltration, so stuck with the tried and true metal vents. Does not look as astecially pleasing I admit, but knowing this system has worked before our time goes along ways since I hate roofs and I hate roof leaks...same with whirley birds, I would not install them on a dog house even if I hated the dog. Been on a few ceiling repairs where blowing snow/rain came right in, accumulated and then melted causing stains/soft spots/peeling paint, and a few crumbling areas.

I love new technology, but there comes a point where old school is proven as opposed to the theroies of the new stuff that have only been out for a few years and they show paper theory and real world are two different animals.

Josh: no hip vent fer me


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Grumpy said:


> There's alot of things I haven't tried that I won't try because I do not have confidence in the product. I don't gamble with my customer's homes. I don't have confidence in the product therefore I refuse to try them until proven otherwise.


What gives you the lack of confidence here?


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

I think Grump as well as other seasoned vets are under the same mentality, use what works on paying customers homes. This way if the latest greatest fad does'nt pan out-which some dont-then your not eating a repair job and getting a bad situation associated with your name.

I have nothing against new technology personally, but like many others I will either experience on my own place with it first to try it, or let time go by and let others try it for me so i can llearn about pro's/con's on their dime.


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## Alan Hughes (Mar 1, 2006)

Hi fellas,

My first post here.  

Some good info on this thread. 

40 yr shingles worth it?

generally, in terms of roof life expectancy, no.

in terms of that thick look, yes.

all depends on your priorities.

I've owned my own business for 20+years here in northeast NC and think the weather conditions similar to southern Md, esp the eastern shore. 

I also would not trust hip vents considering the nor'easters we get but I am a strong supporter of ridgevent whenever possible. To give functional advice would require a look at the residence. Some houses are constructed in a way that complete proper attic ventilation is not possible. Many 'contractors' will argue this but the fact remains unchanged. This is an area that seperates the boys from the men as cost vs return are considerations as well as overall function and only an experienced professional that actually cares is likely to steer you honest and straight.

back to shingles, if the best bang for your buck is the goal, Tamko Heritage 30 shingles over #30 felt will be difficult to top in your area.

btw, I hope to be around Pocomoke State Park in April to bowhunt turkey. If you are nearby I'd be glad to look at it and talk.  

also, wise move checking into a place like this before getting into your job. You'll probably worry some guy to death. :laughing:


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

I have tried the hip vents and they worked. I didnt cut the overhang area and 3 up from there , though the vented material still was there to give the hip a even same profile look.
Hip vents are not new, I saw one done with the old aluminum ridge vent, 25 yrs ago, no problems that I am aware of.
Most everyone protects the hip pretty well because that is the way you may have been taught, sometimes getting past learned things is diffucult. With shingles (asphalt ) just remember to fold the felt back onto the shingle on both sides.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

AaronB. said:


> What gives you the lack of confidence here?


Chicago rains have been known to fly horizontally. I've seen rain and snow backup in ridge vents, I can only imagine how much more prone a hip vent would be. 

IHI has got it right. I don't want to guess with my customers. Yes I know hip vents have been arounda while. I have seen one on a cedar roof of all things. I've seen them on a few shingle roofs also. I have even seen architect's specs where they say to install ridge vents on the hips. 

I could be wrong, it could be a winderful product, but in my mind I can't see how it can defend against wind driven ran and snow.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Alan Hughes said:


> 40 yr shingles worth it?
> 
> generally, in terms of roof life expectancy, no.
> 
> in terms of that thick look, yes.


Really? I don't nitice a difference from the ground unless you get some kind of high definition shingle. If I have a 30 in one hand and a 40 in the other I can see and feel the difference, but again from the ground I can't tell.


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## Alan Hughes (Mar 1, 2006)

Grumpy said:


> Really? I don't nitice a difference from the ground unless you get some kind of high definition shingle. If I have a 30 in one hand and a 40 in the other I can see and feel the difference, but again from the ground I can't tell.


hmmm, 

I can clearly tell the difference between Tamko 30 yr and 40 yr from the ground. Other brands also but I handle primarily Tamko. Shingle thickness and look is very important in some of the waterfront communities I work. 

Tamko makes a 40yr shingle called the XL. It has a very distinctive look. I think it's the best looking shingle on the market but expensive relative to Heritage 30s.


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## shopman (Feb 27, 2006)

Thanks for all your advice, as I want to make sure this is done right before I have it done.

I think I am getting my venting styles mixed up can somebody clarify exactly what a hip vent is? I understand what a ridge and gable vent is. My hip roof currently has 8" * 8" square plastic vents spaced about 5' apart on the back side only of my hip roof (no vents on the side hips). I am not sure if these vents vent only from the bottom or the all the way around, I will get in the attic and check this weekend.

I am going to try to take some pictures this weekend and post them on this site on what my current system is and get some advice on if I should have it changed or leave it alone. My house is on the water, and I think it would look better with a ridge vent, but with a hip roof you dont have too much ridge.

Hey "ALAN HUGES" thanks for the offer but hopefully I can get enough info from this site to guide me in the right direction especially if I can figure out how to post pictures on this site, I dont want to bother you on your time off. Have fun turkey hunting, man bow hunting turkey pretty sweet. I use to love to bow hunt deer on the Eastern Shore, before I had kids/wife/old house/etc.... When your in Pocomoke, if you stop in the Walmart look up in the ceiling I installed most of the HVAC Ductwork in that building, I worked there for a couple months.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Alan Hughes said:


> hmmm,
> 
> I can clearly tell the difference between Tamko 30 yr and 40 yr from the ground. Other brands also but I handle primarily Tamko. Shingle thickness and look is very important in some of the waterfront communities I work.


Yes Alan that's because tamko's 40 year shingle is profoundly different. Take GAF's for a moment and cmopare the two. They basically look identicle. This is what I was referring to in my previous post.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Shopman my advice is call a roofr who knows how to spec attic ventilation.


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## Alan Hughes (Mar 1, 2006)

We call the vents you have LP or low profile passive vents.

One measure of your current vent system is the age of your current roof. Many shingle roofs with inadequate ventilation only last about 12 yrs before starting to come apart from being 'cooked'. You dont want deck temps to approach 150 degrees. That's when shingles cook and a roof will deteriorate quickly once the roof 'cooks', usually taking about 3 years from that point to fail. If your current roof has lasted 20 yrs or close, your current vent system is at least doing some of the job.

I've been in the walmart at Poc City several times but never looked at the duct work. I have good friends up in Berlin. We bowhunt/camp all over the midwest with our Apache campers each fall. 

I see this site doesn't allow pics unless we have ten posts. :whistling


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## Alan Hughes (Mar 1, 2006)

this is the first site I've ever used my real name. Usually I post under ncboman at the hunting sites I frequent.


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## shopman (Feb 27, 2006)

I believe my roof is 32 years old. I am not an expert, but from looking in the attic, I cant see any holes in the plywood where nails use to be, and there is only one layer on the roof. If this is true maybee I should stick with my current ventilation system. 
The shingles are pretty thick, I was surprised because I have never seen shingles that old so thick, I assumed in 1974 all shingles were the same.

The current roof probably should been replaced 5 years ago, I have been holding off because I was planning on putting an addition on the house and wanted to re-roof all at once. Money has been tight (kids/wife in school, etc...) so the addition will have to wait a few more years but the roof cant wait.

Grumpy,
I plan to call a roofer but I have gotten bad or conflicting advice before on different projects. I understand a person cant give accurate advice without seeing the job, but I just want to research this as much as possible before i get estimates so I can specify how I want it done. Thanks again for all your help.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

If that's the case then I revise my advice. Call 2 qualified roofers and hire the one you like the most. If one or both turn out to be schlubs who are not qualified then call another. You need at least two quotes from QUALIFIED roofers. 

If youa re getting conflicting information then ask away and we will try to sort it out. I say this because I, as a contractor, absolutely hate when a home owner comes to me with a flawed spec and I suspect that a majority of the time threads similiar to this one are the cause of that flawed spec. I then have to uneducate and re-educate the customer and I find I usually lose these jobs to morons willing to follow the home owner's flawed spec.

Obviously without measurements and pictures anything we say is theory.


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## shopman (Feb 27, 2006)

I understand Grumpy, I have a masters license in HVAC, and I frequent a forum like this for HVAC tech's to share ideas and problems in our trade and we get HO's/DIY's all the time asking stupid questions. Most of the time try to install a system a F#@$ it up, and get on the forumstrying to figure out how to fix it. 

Dont mean to be a pest and I will get more then one quote, I just like to research as much as possible on a subject before I dive into it and spend a bunch of money.

Thanks again


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

shopman said:


> Dont mean to be a pest and I will get more then one quote, I just like to research as much as possible on a subject before I dive into it and spend a bunch of money.


I absolutely agree this is the way to go. The difference though is get the quotes then do the research. That's my opinion anyways.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

AR comes standard on all landmark 40's made in the Shakopee, MN plant. AR is an option in the landmark 30's.

My price on the 30's is down from 05, here is the pricing over the past three years, all prices include roof top delivery. I visited a large shingle and siding seller and saw the landmark at $54 a square with talk of a 6% increase soon. I got my seven sticks of counter flashing and got out of there!
2004-$40 a sq.
2005-$44-45 a sq.
2006-$43 a sq.

Last year I put on five or so 40 year lm's and four TL's or lifetime lm's and only one 50 year lm.

In all reality to pay an extra $25 per square to get a shingle that only weighs 15-20 lbs more per square is not really a good deal. A better bang for your buck is going from a 30 to a TL wich costs less than double and adds about 100 lbs per square.

Or if you really want a nice shingle try the Presidential shake TL which run around $160 a square but weight almost 500 lbs a square!!!


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

I do like the way the landmark TL's look when compared to the landmarks. That's a beefy shingle.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

The Landmark TL's (3 layer laminate) weight 345 lbs a sq. and cost me $90 a square.
The Presidential Shake TL (5 layer laminate) weight 485 lbs a sq and cost around $160 a square.

You wanna see beefy, check out the P. S. TL's!!!


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