# GFI for Sump pumps



## nywoodwizard (Sep 10, 2005)

When installing a sump pump ,i would assume it would be considered a wet location ? Therefore it should have a GFI receptacle ? Finished up a basement job today and the customer just had one installed a few weeks before i arrived. Any codes pertaining to this ?


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

No. Not a wet location, but typically an unfinished basement or crawl location. 

I could quote the NEC for you but since you are in NY you would need the NYSRBC. We do NOT follow the NEC for 1 & 2 family dwellings in NYS. I will say, I'm not sure about LI. I do know there are a lot of local amendments.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

It is not a good idea to protect a sump pump receptacle with a GFCI because what if it trips and there's a flood? Then what do you do? To get around the GFCI requirement in unfinished basements, use a single receptacle. Be sure that you use either a 15A or a 20A single receptacle (there is a difference) depending on breaker size of the sump pump receptacle circuit. 

210.8(5)
_Exception #2 to (5)_


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Magnettica said:


> It is not a good idea to protect a sump pump receptacle with a GFCI because what if it trips and there's a flood? Then what do you do?


Put in the GFCI get it inspected and change it out for a non-GFCI, I've had the pleasure of coming home to a basement full of water :furious: because the GFCI tripped, I don't care what the code says, unless they are going to pay for damages that was the last GFGI I'll ever have on one of my sump pumps.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

You don't usually ground critical motor loads, but they must be grounded.

A motor is an inductive load and creates an inductive kickback when it is powered off. This can cause a GFCI to trip erratically, therefore you should not put any refrigeration equipment or sump pump on GFCI. 

They must be grounded and preferebly, on a dedicated circuit to prevent trouble in other appliances from taking them down. 

If you do it, your house could floor and things in the freezer will morph into a big stinking mass of bio-hazard.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

Electric_Light said:


> You don't usually ground critical motor loads, but they must be grounded.
> 
> A motor is an inductive load and creates an inductive kickback when it is powered off. This can cause a GFCI to trip erratically, therefore you should not put any refrigeration equipment or sump pump on GFCI.
> 
> ...



Won't matter to the '08 NEC. These arguments were put forth to try to stop the existing exceptions (allowing single receps in basements + garages for fridges and sumps) from being removed. As I recall, the only exception left is for alarm systems.
The NFPA didn't care about floods or ruined food.

(Don't shoot the messenger, I don't like it either)


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

I know it is done quite often and inspectors pass it all the time, but there was never an exception for sump pumps in unfinished basements using a single receptacle. That exception is for large appliances with the receptacle behind it within their space. Exception #2 to 210.8(A)(5) does NOT apply.

In crawl spaces there is NO exception. You need a GFI, period.

I have a 1/2hp sump pump in my crawl and it has NEVER tripped.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

What if you hard-wire it?


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Then there is no receptacle that requires protection.

You'll probably void the listing of the appliance though.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

I won't have my own sump pump or freezer on a GFCI. But I won't change out any required GFCI after the inspector leaves a job site either. I know I won't sue myself if something goes wrong. I guess that's what handymen are for.


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## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

Required or not I always put in a GFI for a sump pump, never had any nusiance faults.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Required or not I always put in a GFI for a sump pump, never had any nusiance faults.


Actually I have seen very few nuisance trips on GFCI's. I've heard about motor circuits causing them but I haven't seen it myself.

The problem is the untrained unaware barefoot homeowner using a metal handled floor scrubber on the wet basement floor and thinking the sump pump receptacle would be a handy place to plug in just for a little while to reach that corner. I just put in the required GFCI and leave it at that. :thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> I know it is done quite often and inspectors pass it all the time, but there was never an exception for sump pumps in unfinished basements using a single receptacle. That exception is for large appliances with the receptacle behind it within their space. Exception #2 to 210.8(A)(5) does NOT apply.
> 
> In crawl spaces there is NO exception. You need a GFI, period.
> 
> I have a 1/2hp sump pump in my crawl and it has NEVER tripped.


Just for arguments sake...

Describe "large appliance."

Because it has been my experience that 210.5 (A)(5) Exception No. 2 allows a single receptacle for a condensate pump on a furnace. Even a duplex receptacle is allowed without GFI protection if there are 2 condensate pumps being used. We cannot consider a condensate pump as being a large appliance, can we?


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## Chris75 (Dec 2, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Just for arguments sake...
> 
> Describe "large appliance."
> 
> Because it has been my experience that 210.5 (A)(5) Exception No. 2 allows a single receptacle for a condensate pump on a furnace. Even a duplex receptacle is allowed without GFI protection if there are 2 condensate pumps being used. We cannot consider a condensate pump as being a large appliance, can we?


This wont matter in 2008, but if you read the exception, it is for an appliance that,_ in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another_. 

To me that is a freezer/fridge type of appliance...


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Chris75 said:


> This wont matter in 2008, but if you read the exception, it is for an appliance that,_ in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another_.
> 
> To me that is a freezer/fridge type of appliance...


I did read the exception, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

NEC 2005 Article 100, definitions

*Appliance*: _Utilization equipment, generally other than industrial, that is normally built in standardized sizes or types and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or more functions such as clothes washing, air conditioning, food mixing, deep frying, and so forth._

No mention of refridgerators in garages or basements, and no mention of sump pumps either. But it specifically says air conditioning.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Magnettica said:


> Because it has been my experience that 210.5 (A)(5) Exception No. 2 allows a single receptacle for a condensate pump on a furnace. Even a duplex receptacle is allowed without GFI protection if there are 2 condensate pumps being used. We cannot consider a condensate pump as being a large appliance, can we?


This still does not make it correct. Have I ever installed a single receptacle for a condensate pump? Sure. Was it code legal. No.


Read the exact wording:
_Exception No. 2 to (5): A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8)

_The part I highlighted in red is the key. The receptacle MUST be located WITHIN the space for the appliance, and also the appliance must not be "easily moved". Think refer/freezer. 
You can now rule out sump pumps, condensate mumps, etc.

Well all know this will be gone in 2008 but not nearly everyone will be under the 2008 NEC come 1/1/08.


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## Chris75 (Dec 2, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> I did read the exception, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.
> 
> NEC 2005 Article 100, definitions
> 
> ...


So what are your thoughts on _"In normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another."_ IMO, a sump pump can easily be moved.


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## woodmagman (Feb 17, 2007)

Moving a sump pump seems very extreme to me and would require you to dig both inside the structure and outside to connect the sump pit into the existing weeping tile. Would your opion change if the pump was not a submersible one.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

The _pump_ is not hard on remove/replace. The _pit_ in something not addressed in the NEC... :whistling

I disagree with Speedy, but it won't matter soon enough. Depending on when the '08 is adopted.


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## Chris75 (Dec 2, 2007)

In all fairness, I generally just install single round receptacles for dedicated receptacles in the basement.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

Chris75 said:


> In all fairness, I generally just install single round receptacles for dedicated receptacles in the basement.


That will be fine, as long as they are GFCI protected. :whistling


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## Chris75 (Dec 2, 2007)

jrclen said:


> That will be fine, as long as they are GFCI protected. :whistling



If the year was 2008...


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Chris75 said:


> If the year was 2008...


The 2008 NEC for NYC won't be adopted until along time from now.

Isn't NYC using something like the 93' or 96' Code?


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## nywoodwizard (Sep 10, 2005)

Magnettica said:


> It is not a good idea to protect a sump pump receptacle with a GFCI because what if it trips and there's a flood? Then what do you do? To get around the GFCI requirement in unfinished basements, use a single receptacle. Be sure that you use either a 15A or a 20A single receptacle (there is a difference) depending on breaker size of the sump pump receptacle circuit.
> 
> 210.8(5)
> _Exception #2 to (5)_


There should be a battery back up and an alarm. GFI or not ,need something in the event of a power failure to the whole house.

The failed circuit alarm accessory features:
Alerts you when a circuit has tripped (failed) 
85 to 90 decibel buzzer (9 volt DC) 


The battery back ups last about 8 hours continuously or about 24 hour intermittently, depending on which brand or battery you buy.

It may pay to invest in the eletronic float switches too,there suppose to be more reliable than the standard float switch.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

nywoodwizard said:


> There should be a battery back up and an alarm. GFI or not ,need something in the event of a power failure to the whole house.
> 
> The failed circuit alarm accessory features:
> Alerts you when a circuit has tripped (failed)
> ...



An alert system is a great idea as long as a customer wants to pay for it.


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## nywoodwizard (Sep 10, 2005)

Magnettica said:


> An alert system is a great idea as long as a customer wants to pay for it.


There only around $50


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