# Cash



## QualityContract (Jan 30, 2014)

I'm sure that this thread will get little response, if any at all. I was curious about contractors that do everything with cash. They take the homeowner's check and cash it at the homeowner's bank. :whistling

I don't understand why they just don't write all of their taxes off.

Most of the contractors that I've talked to that do this said that the IRS can't touch them when it comes to taxes. I know of one contractor, though, that had a $18,000 penalty. I forget how much he owed. But, he takes vacations every other month. He's going to China a couple of weeks from now and just came back from a Tennessee and South Carolina trip last week. 

Are you seeing a lot of contractors doing this?


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

Cash??

What is dis......"cash"...you speak of?

I know 'nussing'


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Quality....

It's called tax evasion, it's a felony, your friend is a felon. You would be foolish to trust him. 

As for getting away with it, he will, until he gets caught. It is unlikely but, you know, others probably do also. Just takes one person turning him in to the IRS. If someone had some listing of his spending and some documentation of the jobs he does, they might even get some money out of turning him in. 

Sometimes IRS just does a lifestyle audit. All they need is evidence of evasion, then they presume your income, going back as far as they wish (no statute of limitations on income tax evasion). The only way to beat it at that point is to prove them wrong (good luck with that). When it comes to taxes, you are presumed guilty, it is your responsibility to prove you are innocent. 

So, what happens to him when/if he gets caught. Maybe they work out a payment agreement (they will take most of his stuff). Maybe he goes to club fed. 

It would be foolish to go there. It was foolish of you to ask about this on a public forum.


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

Cash is one thing but CHECKS are not cash so he is not as safe as he thinks since banks report to the IRS and by then they have your DL # and possibly a fingerprint


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

I hired my first employer in the trade, he filed bankruptcy due to over extending himself. I found out that lots of folks were trying to get their meat hooks into him. I doubt any of had much success. Except for one, the IRS. They won't let you skate and can dig into you finances if they think its' worth it. I got a letter once from the IRS for a bill for $90,000. Imagine my relief when I saw it was mailed to my business but addressed to him.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with taking cash. I received over $6000 worth of cash payment this week. 

Now what he is doing seems a little different. Unless they make the check out to him personally, he wouldn't be able to cash it at the homeowners bank.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

The government is your silent partner and wants to be paid. They don't like when you try and cheat them.

Picture a big big wheel. Always turning, it may pass you today but eventually it rolls around and catches you, it's been turning before you started and will continue to turn long after your gone. It doesn't stop for no one.

Your friend thinks he's winning but he's not. He has limited his resources by not declaring income, he could be further in this game of life by showing who he is and what he can do, basically his business can only grow so big and it stops.

And once you realize how much time you spend looking over your shoulder and trying to cover your tracks and start doing it the proper way, you excel and actually make more money.

And as said, a check is not cash, it's a paper trail, tell your friend not to bend over to pick up the soap. And ya those lifestyle audits...they're real.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

I find it incredible that as soon as anyone mentions cash, the conversation *instantly* turns into a tax fraud melee.

Accepting cash is not against the law. Cash is printed with the following right on every bill: "This note legal tender for all debts, public and private." So accepting cash is not only legal, but condoned by Uncle Sam.

And cashing a check is not tax evasion. So what's all the hullabaloo about?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I find it incredible that as soon as anyone mentions cash, the conversation *instantly* turns into a tax fraud melee.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From my understanding this guy most likely is. The only way to cash a check at a homeowners bank is to have the check written out directly to you and not the business. I'm sure if he's asking for checks to be written to him and not the business, it isn't because he's honest.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I find it incredible that as soon as anyone mentions cash, the conversation *instantly* turns into a tax fraud melee.
> 
> Accepting cash is not against the law. Cash is printed with the following right on every bill: "This note legal tender for all debts, public and private." So accepting cash is not only legal, but condoned by Uncle Sam.
> 
> And cashing a check is not tax evasion. So what's all the hullabaloo about?


The OP stated that it was to avoid taxes


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## ranteso (Nov 11, 2010)

" They take the homeowner's check and cash it at the homeowner's bank."

"I don't understand why they just don't write all of their taxes off"

What is there not to understand?? They are not professionals, not in the slightest meaning of the word.

The people who hire them are getting exactly what they bargained for, an unprofessional who does not have a bank account, probably pays for the last job with the money from then next, skirts the tax laws, and works out of a broken down truck with an old magnetic sign that if you call the number from it you will get Chinese Take Out.

I'm really not interested in these types of people who do that, I already have them pegged, what really intrigues me is the customers who go along with that. 

Seriously, anybody reading this, how would you react if you hired somebody and they cash your check at your bank? Come on, three RED FLAGS of a bum!


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

480sparky said:


> I find it incredible that as soon as anyone mentions cash, the conversation *instantly* turns into a tax fraud melee.
> 
> Accepting cash is not against the law. Cash is printed with the following right on every bill: "This note legal tender for all debts, public and private." So accepting cash is not only legal, but condoned by Uncle Sam.
> 
> And cashing a check is not tax evasion. So what's all the hullabaloo about?


It was sort of the implication of the OP, with the guy taking frequent vacations, etc. There's no wrong in taking cash, love the stuff myself, but if you aren't claiming any of it and you get audited and have a new car, lots of vacations, new boat, lawn tractor, etc and only made $20,000 last year you might have some 'splaining to do.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> From my understanding this guy most likely is. The only way to cash a check at a homeowners bank is to have the check written out directly to you and not the business. I'm sure if he's asking for checks to be written to him and not the business, it isn't because he's honest.


I've cashed many a check written out to my business name.

But it's not to evade taxes.... it's to make sure the check is good.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I had a lady give me 35 grand in brand new 20's one time. It was kind of annoying, but fun to play with piles of money for a night until I deposited it the next day


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

jlsconstruction said:


> I had a lady give me 35 grand in brand new 20's one time. It was kind of annoying, but fun to play with piles of money for a night until I deposited it the next day


Did you count it before you accepted it, or did you trust her? :whistling


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Some people get a kick out of being dishonest - "getting away with something". Cash (not checks) payments to employees, cash only (not checks) for services. It isn't just contractors.

On the contractor side, these are the same guys that don't pull permits, from what I've seen. Why make an honest buck when you can have the satisfaction of making a dishonest one....

A guy I know was caught. Not only is he paying off what he owed, but he's paying penalties and interest as well. Has been for a few years.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Ok, why did she pay you that in cash? No reasonable person has that much cash around, it raises suspicion of illegal activity and causes a slurry of questions as to why.

I had a guy wanting to pay me an entire project in cash, but not to deposit it, it would raise red flags, and I can't run my company upside down.

Cash just isn't worth it


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## bigz (Aug 7, 2009)

and another thing he better be saving his cash for the future because his social security is going to suck when he gets ready to retire


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Did you count it before you accepted it, or did you trust her? :whistling


I have her my bill, she asked me to give her a few, and went up stairs. A few minutes later she comes down with it, and counted it out in front of me


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

jlsconstruction said:


> I had a lady give me 35 grand in brand new 20's one time. It was kind of annoying, but fun to play with piles of money for a night until I deposited it the next day


I've had a few pay in large sums of cash and it's more of a nuisance than anything. Credit cards are nice and easy.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> Bi polar and profoundly retarded, I hope she was hot.


She was very pretty.

But every time I see a really beautiful, single, woman, I say to myself...,"see, someone was even tired of putting up with her chit too."

The only difference seems to be our tolerance level gets higher with the pretty ones.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Safes are cheap


Just under 1/2 million in $20's requires a big safe, no so cheap....and how long would it take to use that kind of cash?

Not that I've been audited but here the stories and rumors, they look everywhere now. Recent one I heard was looking at your credit cards - personal credit cards seeing if you paid them off and how. Tax cheaters are always devising new ways to cheat and G is always catching up

On the other hand, if your cash is legal, you can explain where it came from and it is somewhat verifiable then you have no problems. Old immigrants keeping cash in the mattress, you know it's true, today's generation not so much.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> ........
> So ya, large sums of cash raise suspicions and not presumptuous as all


Possessing large sums of cash is still not illegal. If your default position is, "Ooh.... tons of dead presidents..... must be a drug dealer or gun runner or bookie or pimp.....", then yes...you ARE being presumptuous. 

There are still people in the world who simply do not trust banks. There are still people around who lived through the Great Depression. And there are people who are simply eccentric. *None* of which automatically makes them criminals.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Possessing large sums of cash is still not illegal. If your default position is, "Ooh.... tons of dead presidents..... must be a drug dealer or gun runner or bookie or pimp.....", then yes...you ARE being presumptuous. There are still people in the world who simply do not trust banks. There are still people around who lived through the Great Depression. And there are people who are simply eccentric. None of which automatically makes them criminals.


Your absolutely right and the burden of proof is on you to prove where these large sums of dead presidents or in my case a few dead prime ministers and a living Queen came from.

If you obtained it all legally then proof is not difficult for legally obtained cash, there is somewhat of a paper trail. No drugs, guns, pimps etc don't give receipts


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## gastek (Mar 29, 2011)

Look at what's happening today in the news about credit card fraud and it wouldn't surprise me to see more homeowners to start paying in cash/checks. 99% of the payments I take are checks. If I get cash, well that's between me and the wall as to what I do with it. Lets just say I have my own off shore account like the high rollers do. :laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Friend of mine had an excellent divorce settlement. She knew about the hubby's (not a contractor) undeclared off shore accounts (all bribe money).


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

And even though there is a mass amount of credit card fraud especially in the US, it's cheaper for the credit issuers to pay the fraud then it is to implement the new secure technology Europe, Canada and a few other places have.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Chris Johnson said:


> And even though there is a mass amount of credit card fraud especially in the US, it's cheaper for the credit issuers to pay the fraud then it is to implement the new secure technology Europe, Canada and a few other places have.


I've heard vaguely about this. Can you elaborate? Is it a chip in a card? What about online sales?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Yes it's a chip card

My brother inlaw works for Visa in Canada for the fraud division and we were talking about if. The US has no interest in switching right now, your US card costs about $2 to produce, chip cards are $20, then add in every retailer replacing his POS terminal...adds up to a lot of money and the fraud is still cheaper to pay.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Chris Johnson said:


> Yes it's a chip card
> 
> My brother inlaw works for Visa in Canada for the fraud division and we were talking about if. The US has no interest in switching right now, your US card costs about $2 to produce, chip cards are $20, then add in every retailer replacing his POS terminal...adds up to a lot of money and the fraud is still cheaper to pay.


The bean counters seem to always have the final say these days. But how does the security work for off site sales, like online?


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## RMC9 (Feb 24, 2014)

Claim everything and reinvest in tax efficient investments. Accountants and attorneys are expensive to fight audits and so are the fines, and you will be audited eventually.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

Chris Johnson said:


> Your absolutely right and the *burden of proof is on you to prove where these large sums* of dead presidents or in my case a few dead prime ministers and a living Queen came from.
> 
> If you obtained it all legally then proof is not difficult for legally obtained cash, there is somewhat of a paper trail. No drugs, guns, pimps etc don't give receipts


So we're guilty until proven innocent? :blink: 

I'll grant ya, it seems to be headed that way, I was just hoping we weren't there yet.

I say, the burden is on them to prove that you DID gain it by doing something illegal. If they can't, it is LEGAL tender. And it is legal to possess any amount you want of it. If no crime was committed, then they have no case.

I should say, if they can't PROVE that a crime was committed, they have no case.


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## totes (Oct 17, 2013)

The irs seizes all your assets, then puts the burden on you you prove you earned it legally and paid taxes on it. 
You in no way have to be convicted of any crime for the irs to take your money.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

RangoWA said:


> The bean counters seem to always have the final say these days. But how does the security work for off site sales, like online?


Didn't get in to that so much...I can ask

I know when I buy online with my Canadian card in the US, I need the pin code on the back, if I call in an order and give my card number it gets rejected for US purchases, I have to call and tell them I am making a large purchase, then they take the flag off, if it is someone I buy from regularly they add the name of the vendor to the list to avoid me calling. And it's only purchases over 3k that seem to get flagged, the fix is easy and they are doing it to protect you and them


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Chris Johnson said:


> I know when I buy online with my Canadian card in the US, I need the pin code on the back,


That's a common practice here, they all do that. The cheapo security version I guess.


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## gastek (Mar 29, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> Yes it's a chip card
> 
> My brother inlaw works for Visa in Canada for the fraud division and we were talking about if. The US has no interest in switching right now, your US card costs about $2 to produce, chip cards are $20, then add in every retailer replacing his POS terminal...adds up to a lot of money and the fraud is still cheaper to pay.


I just received my new Sam's Club MC card last week and guess what, it has a chip. My only complaint so far is that it takes longer at the check out to use it. So there will be a learning curve with this new system. 

It's coming to America but slowly.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I think the speed is based on connection speed of the terminal, some are fast here, others not so much.

So that piece of plastic is $20 to make!! Your debit cards will be next. You will see tap and pay shortly too, no swipe or pin, just tap and go, I think the maximum purchase is $50 that way.


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## gastek (Mar 29, 2011)

Tap n pay has been here for some time for lots of things. Newest and very unsecure which is probably what you are talking about is the phone apps that let you assign a CC to your phone and you run the app and pass the phone over the card reader device. It sends your card info to the device. However, it's very easy for someone whit a device to read your card info and charge your card. It's on Samsung phones. Not sure if any others.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> Your absolutely right and the burden of proof is on you to prove where these large sums of dead presidents or in my case a few dead prime ministers and a living Queen came from.
> 
> If you obtained it all legally then proof is not difficult for legally obtained cash, there is somewhat of a paper trail. No drugs, guns, pimps etc don't give receipts


"How did I get all cash, officer? Simple.... some old lady paid with with $100s."

Now charge me with a crime.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> "How did I get all cash, officer? Simple.... some old lady paid with with $100s." Now charge me with a crime.


Attitude towards authority figures dictates how they treat you in return and how far they want to take it.

Politely saying a customer paid you that way, no problem if nothing seems suspicious, give a guy attitude and he may just crack out the rubber gloves for a full examination...and still not find anything but made you wait.


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## gastek (Mar 29, 2011)

QCCI said:


> I agree 100%! These guys forget who they are actually working for sometimes and who is paying their salary. They are getting too big and too much power. We need out country back


Just remember the most powerful ones are voted into office by the voters, you and me.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

gastek said:


> So now you are saying we don't have to show our IDs when asked by an officer of the law? Not sure where you get your stuff from but if you feel you can do this without any ill affect, have fun.
> 
> You can and should stand up for your rights. However if an officer asks to see my ID and I know I haven't done anything wrong, have at it buddy.


If your not driving you don't have to show him or do answer anything. You don't even have to give them your name.
If your Driving them he can impound your vehicle for not producing documents. You sign for that when you sign for your DL.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Californiadecks said:


> People bringing 10,000 dollars or more through customs daily. In fact it's very common. Also it looks as though gold bullion doesn't need to be declared. https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/778/~/declaring-currency-when-entering-the-u.s.-in-transit-to-a-foreign-destination


Sure...

Anything to declare? Yes I have 10k plus in cash...sir please proceed to secondary screening...

Example A
Where did you get the cash? 
I won it in Vegas
Congratulations can you show me something to prove this
Yes, here's the picture from the casino 
Thank you very much, welcome to Canada...please spend it all

Example B
Where did you get the cash?
Why? Am I suspected of a crime? Am I being detained? 
....many hours later
Sir if you had of just told us this in the beginning you would have been out of here a long time ago


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> Sure...
> 
> Anything to declare? Yes I have 10k plus in cash...sir please proceed to secondary screening...
> 
> ...


That's not how it goes down.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> Sure...
> 
> Anything to declare? Yes I have 10k plus in cash...sir please proceed to secondary screening...
> 
> ...


People bring money to keep from paying transfer fees. That's all you have to say.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

They only question you if you lie about the amount. If you have 12,000 and you say you have 5 this brings about reasonable suspicion.
It's very common for people to travel with large sums of cash, especially with U.S money.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

gastek said:


> So now you are saying we don't have to show our IDs when asked by an officer of the law? Not sure where you get your stuff from but if you feel you can do this without any ill affect, have fun.
> 
> You can and should stand up for your rights. However if an officer asks to see my ID and I know I haven't done anything wrong, have at it buddy.


Here's a good example

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c7gcCCd3LEw


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Californiadecks said:


> That's not how it goes down.


Actually it is and that's why I would wire transfer before I went to the airport, $25 to send and $25 to receive.

Because one of the questions is....why do you need this kind of cash? Why not a check? Why not a money order.

I'm not saying you can't take cash, but it certainly slows you down at the line and raises a lot of concerns


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

gastek said:


> So now you are saying we don't have to show our IDs when asked by an officer of the law?


That's exactly what he's saying, and he's right.




> Not sure where you get your stuff from but if you feel you can do this without any ill affect, have fun.


As someone already said, if you're driving, then you usually have to show ID. If you're walking down the street and some power trippin' road pirate pulls up and says "hey, hey, hey....lemme see some ID there PAL" (they love callin ya pal, lol)...you are well within your rights to tell him to GFH. Ask if you are being detained, if he says yes, they he better have a reason. If he says no, you're free to carry on walking. If he says nothing, you are free to carry on walking...silence does NOT mean "yes you are". 



> You can and should stand up for your rights. However if an officer asks to see my ID and I know I haven't done anything wrong, have at it buddy.


That's your choice. Mine and a lot of other people's choice is to really stand up for our rights, and not just put on that illusion to make ourselves feel better.

EDIT TO ADD: I'm out. That's my opinion and my feelings. I'm not going to debate them...you're not going to change my mind, and I'm probably not going to change yours. If we keep going down this road this will get dumped in the basement.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Most don't realize that if a cop is questioning you he is not on your side. he is looking for a reason to arrest you. We need to stop cooperating and being polite when they are over stepping their bounds. When they start asking questions like where are you going, where are you coming from, can I see your ID...unless I have committed a crime or am suspected of committing a crime I simple ask if I am being detained. If not, then I am on my way.
> 
> While these things may cause some inconvenience, it is worth it to stand up for my rights and prevent cops from overstepping and thinking that they are overlords and not servants.


Cops are neither. They are public employees hired to do a job. Sometimes the job calls for determining if someone is operating a motor vehicle impaired, a suspect or up to no good. How you respond can very definitely raise suspicion where is might become a reasonable suspicion/probable cause issue. So playing roadside lawyer/constitutional authority might get you on your way quicker or it can cost you a lot of time, money or resources. 

So no, they aren't typically looking for a reason to arrest you but they sometimes are on a fishing expedition, it's part of the job so it is within the bounds. Sure, some overdo it but confrontation isn't the answer. You can exercise your legal rights after, sometimes as simply as sending a letter to the cheif/sheriff or mayor's office.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> They only question you if you lie about the amount. If you have 12,000 and you say you have 5 this brings about reasonable suspicion.
> It's very common for people to travel with large sums of cash, especially with U.S money.


There is a check box on the customs form that says "Are you carrying more than 10K cash?"


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

totes said:


> TNT, Are you implying that you have been to FEDERAL court and taken it to the box to prove your innocence?


No...it was predicted what I would do. I just corrected it.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

jproffer said:


> So we're guilty until proven innocent? :blink:
> 
> I'll grant ya, it seems to be headed that way, I was just hoping we weren't there yet.
> 
> ...


Actually, it's your money and stuff they arrest, it has no rights (really). If you wish to get it back, you must sue them, the burden of proof is on you. You must prove that it was legitimately earned and proper taxes paid. If you are working off the books (no books cash) that will be impossible. 

It isn't just the IRS, it's law enforcement at all levels, even regulators at all levels. They all have the power to fine you or hold your cash or assets until you prove you did not break the law throughout the acquisition or possession process. 

It's even worse than that though. If your property was used in the commission of a crime it's gone. A real example, a guy was at work, unbeknownst to him, his wife and her boyfriend were in his house doing drugs. The cops busted them, seized the house, and they owned it because the house was used in the commission of a crime. 

Cash is legal but, keeping that cash requires detailed record keeping, documentation of paying all taxes, and documentation of your reason(s) for having/carrying large amounts of cash. 

Liberty? Reminiscing is all that's left.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

RangoWA said:


> So no, they aren't typically looking for a reason to arrest you but they sometimes are on a fishing expedition, it's part of the job so it is within the bounds.


Depends on the jurisdiction. In many states the police departments get to keep the cash and stuff they confiscate, this is how they pay the cops. They are all about seizing assets, it's how they feed their families. 

This is not just local cops, it exists to different extents in all law enforcement including regulators, local, state, and federal.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

thom said:


> Depends on the jurisdiction. In many states the police departments get to keep the cash and stuff they confiscate, this is how they pay the cops. They are all about seizing assets, it's how they feed their families.
> 
> This is not just local cops, it exists to different extents in all law enforcement including regulators, local, state, and federal.


You are drawing conclusions based on an opinion supported by an assertion. Assets are siezed on occasion but your broadbrushing needs a credible source.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RangoWA said:


> Cops are neither. They are public employees hired to do a job. Sometimes the job calls for determining if someone is operating a motor vehicle impaired, a suspect or up to no good. How you respond can very definitely raise suspicion where is might become a reasonable suspicion/probable cause issue. So playing roadside lawyer/constitutional authority might get you on your way quicker or it can cost you a lot of time, money or resources.
> 
> So no, they aren't typically looking for a reason to arrest you but they sometimes are on a fishing expedition, it's part of the job so it is within the bounds. Sure, some overdo it but confrontation isn't the answer. You can exercise your legal rights after, sometimes as simply as sending a letter to the cheif/sheriff or mayor's office.


No they are public SERVANTS. Heck their motto is to SERVE and protect.

It's obvious you know no police officers personally. I know a few dozen local, a few stateys, an ICE agent, 2 FBI....I'm not speaking out of my ass.

If you are being questioned you are a suspected of something. They will make you feel warm and fuzzy, but it's so they can get you to say something that they can catch you on.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

QualityContract said:


> I'm sure that this thread will get little response, if any at all.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::blink:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> If you are being questioned you are a suspected of something. They will make you feel warm and fuzzy, but it's so they can get you to say something that they can catch you on.


There is more truth to this then most people realize

Even if they haven't read you your miranda rights, whatever you say before they are read will be used to help them build a case against you.


Not sure about the US, but in Canada here...

Sir, have you been drinking tonight? - Most people will say 'I just had 2' if they have been drinking. Dummies, you just admitted to breaking the law and being guilty, whether you blow <.05 doesn't matter, it is still breaking the law.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> There is a check box on the customs form that says "Are you carrying more than 10K cash?"


No chit , but they don't question you about the details of the money. They don't pull you in the back room and shake you down as some are insinuating. I've traveled all over the world, the only place I've been shaken down was in China. But not the US. Let me rephrase that they only question you about the money you claim if they catch you in a lie. They may count the money.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

you only have to tell them how much money, that's it. It's your legal right.
according to people I know in the customs business they said, people think they will be suspected of something so they lie. This is where they get in trouble. It happens all the time. 10,000 dollars isn't that much money.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I would suggest you read your constitution. They have no right to question you if they do not have probable cause. You do not have to answer any questions. They are servants. It's called public servant. You are just flat out wrong on this one. And it's once again obvious that you don't understand the definition of servant. I will repeat, if you feel that a few seconds is a waste of time to defend your rights, then you are part of the problem.


Sometimes you need to decide which fights to pick or are worth picking too.

I don't disagree with you on exercising your rights, but sometimes the easiest route is to bend a little and be done with it.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> Sometimes you need to decide which fights to pick or are worth picking too.
> 
> I don't disagree with you on exercising your rights, but sometimes the easiest route is to bend a little and be done with it.


Again, I am not saying that it's not the easiest route, but it's also the laziest. Any time that they are abusing their power is the right fight to pick. Any time that they pull you over you need to ask what you are being detained for. They HAVE to tell you. They even have to tell you before you relinquish your ID and information.

The idea is to flip it around on them. I first record the incident but tell them that I am recording prior to starting it. I then ask them what I was doing. If for instance they say I was speeding, I ask how fast was I going and exactly where was I when he believes that I was speeding. If asked for my ID, that is the moment that I will turn over my ID and other requested documents.

It is also at this point that I do not answer any further questions that do not pertain to the stated reason for the detention. For instance, if they ask where am I headed or where did I come from. I simple ask how that pertains to my speeding. Until they answer, I do not answer. That is where their fishing expedition begins, but with me, it ends.

Any time that my rights are violated is the right time to make the time to stand up for them. We had to fight a war for these rights, they just weren't handed to us.


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## totes (Oct 17, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Again, I am not saying that it's not the easiest route, but it's also the laziest. Any time that they are abusing their power is the right fight to pick. Any time that they pull you over you need to ask what you are being detained for. They HAVE to tell you. They even have to tell you before you relinquish your ID and information.
> 
> The idea is to flip it around on them. I first record the incident but tell them that I am recording prior to starting it. I then ask them what I was doing. If for instance they say I was speeding, I ask how fast was I going and exactly where was I when he believes that I was speeding. If asked for my ID, that is the moment that I will turn over my ID and other requested documents.
> 
> ...


If the Officer is not willing to play by the letter of the law, you might be in for a loss.
Some law enforcement might want to take you to the station, not charge you with a crime, just so your car gets towed. 
I respect the principles of what you are saying, but sometimes being polite and letting someone feel the false power the need is the path of least resistance. 
Standing up for your rights has it's time and place, imo.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I gotta say every time I've been pulled over the first thing the cop tells me is why I've been stopped. Whether it be speeding, seatbelt, DWI check point, I've never not been told.

Perhaps you have and I can understand your distrust or feeling of violation.

As for the where have you been or where are you going, sometimes just saying I'm late for my mom has 'helped' with a warning or a carry on and slow down.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

totes said:


> If the Officer is not willing to play by the letter of the law, you might be in for a loss.
> Some law enforcement might want to take you to the station, not charge you with a crime, just so your car gets towed.
> I respect the principles of what you are saying, but sometimes being polite and letting someone feel the false power the need is the path of least resistance.
> Standing up for your rights has it's time and place, imo.


Nah, the chances are very slim. The problem is you need to know the rules they have to follow. They don't want a lawsuit or to get written up or even canned over a stupid traffic stop.

It's none of their business where I was coming from or where I am headed. Give me my violation and let me be on my way. It is a free country.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> I gotta say every time I've been pulled over the first thing the cop tells me is why I've been stopped. Whether it be speeding, seatbelt, DWI check point, I've never not been told.
> 
> Perhaps you have and I can understand your distrust or feeling of violation.
> 
> As for the where have you been or where are you going, sometimes just saying I'm late for my mom has 'helped' with a warning or a carry on and slow down.


Telling them your late never works around here. They then give you the speech about endangering others because of your poor planning. The best way to get out of a ticket is to take it court. A traffic lawyer is usually cheaper than the ticket.

And don't get me wrong, I have mad respect for LEO's. I have many in the family past and present and like I said am good friends with several.

I've gotten tickets for going 5 over and gotten out of 17 over...it all depends on the cop and how his day is going. The best advice is to ask details about the stop (that will play out in court later...gotta love dash cams) and answer only those that pertain to the reason for the stop.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> Yes it's a chip card
> 
> My brother inlaw works for Visa in Canada for the fraud division and we were talking about if. The US has no interest in switching right now, your US card costs about $2 to produce, chip cards are $20, then add in every retailer replacing his POS terminal...adds up to a lot of money and the fraud is still cheaper to pay.


Square just sent me an email that the chip protoccol would be implemented in 2015.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

totes said:


> If the Officer is not willing to play by the letter of the law, you might be in for a loss.
> Some law enforcement might want to take you to the station, not charge you with a crime, just so your car gets towed.
> I respect the principles of what you are saying, but sometimes being polite and letting someone feel the false power the need is the path of least resistance.
> Standing up for your rights has it's time and place, imo.


Ever heard the saying, "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile"...?

If you start "letting them feel the false power they need", it will get worse....and worse....and before long, we're back in Nazi Germany.

I'm not interested in the path of least resistance, I'm interested in showing them (meaning "them" as a group) that "we, as a group" aren't willing to just lay down and put up with their power trip.

If I was speeding, fine...give me my ticket and get out of my face. If I think I wasn't speeding, then the roadside isn't the place to argue it, but there IS a place and I will argue it, if I think I'm in the right.


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## QualityContract (Jan 30, 2014)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Again, I am not saying that it's not the easiest route, but it's also the laziest. Any time that they are abusing their power is the right fight to pick. Any time that they pull you over you need to ask what you are being detained for. They HAVE to tell you. They even have to tell you before you relinquish your ID and information.
> 
> The idea is to flip it around on them. I first record the incident but tell them that I am recording prior to starting it. I then ask them what I was doing. If for instance they say I was speeding, I ask how fast was I going and exactly where was I when he believes that I was speeding. If asked for my ID, that is the moment that I will turn over my ID and other requested documents.
> 
> ...


The problem is... is your life worth "standing up for your rights"?

I've read in the paper about cops killing a soldier who returned from home and was in the wrong place at the wrong time when the cops had the wrong house that they were raiding for drugs.

...AND THE COPS GOT AWAY WITH IT. :sad: The officer that saw the water bottle that he thought was a weapon? ...Just a slap on the wrist. A 2 week suspension and he is back in the force ready to take another innocent person's life.

If cops can get away with this, do our rights really matter??


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## totes (Oct 17, 2013)

jproffer said:


> Ever heard the saying, "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile"...?


Exactly. Don't give them one inch of reason to detain you any longer or give them a motive to take you the mile to jail.
Smile and take your citation. You aren't going to change any laws, protect civil liberties, or ignite a revolution by being a smart as 'lawyer wannabe' to a cop. 
I will let a cop feel "the false power" if I get to drive home instead in my car instead of his. Maybe cops are nicer in Illinois?
Police have way to much power over us. I certainly live in a police state. Protecting our rights starts in the voting booth. Police and prisons are grossly overfunded.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

QualityContract said:


> The problem is... is your life worth "standing up for your rights"?
> 
> I've read in the paper about cops killing a soldier who returned from home and was in the wrong place at the wrong time when the cops had the wrong house that they were raiding for drugs.
> 
> ...


Yes they really matter. They are so important millions of fine men gave thier life for them.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

totes said:


> Exactly. Don't give them one inch of reason to detain you any longer or give them a motive to take you the mile to jail.
> Smile and take your citation. You aren't going to change any laws, protect civil liberties, or ignite a revolution by being a smart as 'lawyer wannabe' to a cop.
> I will let a cop feel "the false power" if I get to drive home instead in my car instead of his. Maybe cops are nicer in Illinois?
> Police have way to much power over us. I certainly live in a police state. Protecting our rights starts in the voting booth. Police and prisons are grossly overfunded.


Be a coward all you want, but I would rather go to jail and expose their corruption than sit by and do nothing allowing them to do the same or worse to other innocents.


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## totes (Oct 17, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Be a coward all you want, but I would rather go to jail and expose their corruption than sit by and do nothing allowing them to do the same or worse to other innocents.


I'm not a coward. 
Jaw jack all you like TNT. It's your specialty. All That tough talk doesn't mean much to me. I'm not a fan of talking to my loved ones through a plate glass window or working my tail off just to hand my pay check to an attorney. 
Good luck with your "corruption expose' " , tough guy.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

totes said:


> Exactly. Don't give them one inch of reason to detain you any longer or give them a motive to take you the mile to jail.
> Smile and take your citation. You aren't going to change any laws, protect civil liberties, or ignite a revolution by being a smart as 'lawyer wannabe' to a cop.
> I will let a cop feel "the false power" if I get to drive home instead in my car instead of his. Maybe cops are nicer in Illinois?
> Police have way to much power over us. I certainly live in a police state. Protecting our rights starts in the voting booth. Police and prisons are grossly overfunded.


Please don't quote me and then start that line of drivel and BS with "Exactly". I think you know that's not what I meant.

If you're going to completely miss my point, leave me out of it :thumbsup:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

totes said:


> I'm not a coward.
> Jaw jack all you like TNT. It's your specialty. All That tough talk doesn't mean much to me. I'm not a fan of talking to my loved ones through a plate glass window or working my tail off just to hand my pay check to an attorney.
> Good luck with your "corruption expose' " , tough guy.


So is there no line for you? At what point would you finally stand up for yourself and your rights? What if they demanded you tell them personal things like medical history or whatever? Do you believe they get to know whatever they ask as long as they don't hurt you or take you into custody? Do you not have a line you won't let them cross? Just trying to see where you stand.


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## totes (Oct 17, 2013)

Of course I have a line Mike, but that is a hard question to answer. The circumstances matter greatly, It depends.
I might be miscomunicating my points.

I will fight like hell in a courtroom, but not with a police officer. In my experience, the police do not always play by the rules. If they want to win, they probably will. 

I have stood for up my rights with law enforcement and been hurt. There was no glory.


I'm too old to take a big loss. Life is short, and I want to be surrounded by the good people, the good things life has to offer....so yeah, If I was given the decision to let my rights be violated, or go to jail for a couple days-months-years... Sure, search my car officer or heres my medical info. I'm not willing to lose my business, have my face put on the internet, live with unsavory people, be on probation, start all over, all that BS. How far I would let my rights be violated in the field....not sure. As a country many of our civil liberties have already been comprimised.....so on such a small level as an officer asking "where are you driving to", "pop your trunk I want to look in there"....Yeah, I will lay down for that.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

totes said:


> Of course I have a line Mike, but that is a hard question to answer. The circumstances matter greatly, It depends.
> I might be miscomunicating my points.
> 
> I will fight like hell in a courtroom, but not with a police officer. In my experience, the police do not always play by the rules. If they want to win, they probably will.
> ...


I understand your point. 

Funny thing is, they always phucked with me when I was 18 driving a beat up Pinto wagon, but now that I'm older I couldn't get them to phuck with me and I've tryed. They actually call me sir even when I'm a little bit pissed about getting a ticket. So it may be my location which is a quiet little suburb, but they are very professional around here. Some see me drive by daily in my truck. I've never met them personally but some wave just because we cross paths on the road so often. 

My good friend and Neighbor is an internal affairs officer for a local police department here. I've known him for years and I get a lot of inside scoop.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I would suggest you read your constitution. They have no right to question you if they do not have probable cause. You do not have to answer any questions.
> 
> They are servants. It's called public servant. You are just flat out wrong on this one. And it's once again obvious that you don't understand the definition of servant.
> 
> I will repeat, if you feel that a few seconds is a waste of time to defend your rights, then you are part of the problem.


I suggest you read the posts if you are going to respond to them. I said not answering a question if stopped you are raising suspicion. If you are being pulled over or questioned there's probably a reason. The Constitution doesn't mention probable cause and no cop is going to fetch anything for you. They aren't your servant. Like I said, go ahead and test out your theory.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

RangoWA said:


> I said not answering a question if stopped you are raising suspicion.


Not if you make it clear WHY you're not answering. 



RangoWA said:


> If you are being pulled over or questioned there's probably a reason.


Yea because they think they can do whatever they want....and they think that because of people like you and Totes letting them get by with their BS for so long.



RangoWA said:


> The Constitution doesn't mention probable cause


 is that right??



RangoWA said:


> and no cop is going to fetch anything for you. They aren't your servant.


And again, Servant does not mean slave. "Fetch me some coffee boy" obviously isn't going to work out. But they are hired to serve...to act in a given capacity on behalf of someone else...US. (no I didn't go find the dictionary definition)


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

jproffer said:


> Not if you make it clear WHY you're not answering.
> 
> Yea because they think they can do whatever they want....and they think that because of people like you and Totes letting them get by with their BS for so long.
> 
> ...


When I'm hired to do a job I'm nobody's servant. You're confused. Finf the Constitional definition of probable cause. It aint there. "They" aren't all the same. I'm not pushed around by anybody, you can't read. I may or may not answer questions, depends on the circumstances. If I think I need a lawyer, I'll have a lawyer. If it's a question about whether I saw someone matching a description or if I knew the speed limit, etc., I'll probably answer it. And I don't particularly care if any of that meets with your approval or not. Get it?


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