# permits or no permits



## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

Had a job I went to look at yesterday that was just turning a two door garage into a 1 big door garage and the lady really didn't want to get permits. I explained it was better for resale, safety, etc.. but she didn't want the extra cost. 

I wouldn't do it of course but it got me wondering, what kind of jobs will you do without a permit? Will you do a bath remodel if it has no structural, electrical or plumbing changes? Will you change someones counters? New roof? At what point do you say "OK this doesn't need a permit"?

Wack


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

A quick call to the building dept in the customers jurisdiction will give you the answers to what requires a permit and what doesn't. That's basically how we do it.


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## HUDSONVALLEYEXT (Aug 29, 2006)

If your not adding living space you should not need a permit.


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## C buck (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm not a builder, so for what its worth, in my area any job costing over $1000 (labor ncluded) needs a permit. You do not need to be licenced either to do plumbing or electrical as long as its a REMODEL, if its a RENOVATION(whatever the diffrence may be, more then a couple rooms?) or new construction you obviously need to be. I just know this from getting permits for my own house through the village.


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## StormTech (Mar 14, 2007)

It always seems like a good idea until you get caught. Then after a few times of getting caught the building department guys kinda put you in a class of craftsman you really dont want to be in. I always felt its better to get it out of the way. A right job costs what it costs. If a client wants to sidetrack the permit fees it makes me wonder how they are going to treat me on payday.


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

We pretty much permit everything, just to cover our a$$. Our average remodel/renovation is probably around 15k but if we were just going to paint the interior or change a minor cosmetic thing I probably wouldn't get permits. I think the customers who don't want to pay for permits even though it's in THEIR best interest aren't really the kind of customers we're shooting for.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Unless the single garage doors are under a gabled truss, you are making a substantial change, which is a permit item.....at least in most areas I work in. Of course, a handyman can come along and remove the garage doors and make living space out of it without a permit. I have seen this done....dens with gas waterheaters behind plywood screens....


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## marc (Mar 18, 2005)

HUDSONVALLEYEXT said:


> If your not adding living space you should not need a permit.


Where are YOU from?
Around here....Painting and wallpapering doesn't need a permit
EVERYTHING else does.


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## oldgoat (Aug 18, 2005)

I know that when you try to sell a house you have to answer if all work was done with permits or not. I know that in my area some will do work at a cheaper price without permits also. I had concrete work for a widening of the driveway done without it, but on the other hand I have done had work done that a permit was included in the contract, but I never saw it posted on the house like it is suppose to be. Depending on how strict your area is I would at a min call to see if it is needed or not. Not worth getting into trouble over a small job and then have to meet the inspector on other jobs.


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## vwovw (Mar 9, 2007)

just start the job and tell her she is responsible to get the permit. after a couple days call the zoning and have them come out (anonymously) if your really worried. Here they just fine you a small amount. no biggy. I wouldn't go that route on any other jobs but a garage door job no worries.Just do it right.


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

Yeah, I wouldn't even think of it, just to cover my own ass. 

Around here they want you to get a permit for just about everything imaginable and I pretty much do. I have been tempted to pass on them for purely cosmetic jobs like tile in a bath or a kitchen freshening but I really just don't want to go down that road. 

Of course we have lots of remodeling right now. If business was really slow I might be singing a different song if it meant losing the job that I needed.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

One way to get around this... Is to include the price of the permit in the job to begin with. Then they dont have to worry about the "extra" cost. 

I have found people are very open to the "first" price you give them. So include all the upgrades and then work down. Its a lot harder to tell them "thats an upgrade and will cost you $xx" and "the permit price is not included" that makes them think "well I guess I will just skip the permit and that keeps me at the original price.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

RobertCDF said:


> One way to get around this... Is to include the price of the permit in the job to begin with. Then they dont have to worry about the "extra" cost.
> 
> I have found people are very open to the "first" price you give them. So include all the upgrades and then work down. Its a lot harder to tell them "thats an upgrade and will cost you $xx" and "the permit price is not included" that makes them think "well I guess I will just skip the permit and that keeps me at the original price.


I like that! Downsell to upsell. Help soften the blow of sticker shock that some experience. Might even give a slight feeling of getting the better of the contractor or talking him/her down on price. Some might call it coming in the backdoor, but I see it as an honest strategy, laying all the options on the table at the getgo. Let them decide what package they want and experience the decrease in cost. Heheh, my daddy would have called that using reverse polarity on them, his bluecollar term for reverse psychology. I still smile when I think remember that. :thumbsup:


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

A permit is required here for any deck of any size. Unfortunately, most people don't want to be bothered, especially since it can take 6 weeks to get the permit. If they call me in May for a deck, they simply don't want to wait til July to have it built.
I always tell them, and I offer to do the plans at no extra cost, but they just won't wait.
Out of 100 decks last year we got 7 permits!


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Stone Mountain said:


> A permit is required here for any deck of any size. Unfortunately, most people don't want to be bothered, especially since it can take 6 weeks to get the permit. If they call me in May for a deck, they simply don't want to wait til July to have it built.
> I always tell them, and I offer to do the plans at no extra cost, but they just won't wait.
> Out of 100 decks last year we got 7 permits!


That is a major problem with your building department. I think you should go to the head hog and get that fixed. All you have to do is tell them: "If I can get my permits in less than 5 days you would have had $xxx more revenue last year based upon the 93 decks that did not get permited and that is just me... what about all the other deck builders?"

Might be bad they might start tracking you down and busting you, but it will be better for all in the end.


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

Stone Mountain said:


> Unfortunately, most people don't want to be bothered, especially since it can take 6 weeks to get the permit. Out of 100 decks last year we got 7 permits!


WOW! 6 weeks for a deck? I get my permits for demoing an old home and building a new one in two weeks and I thought that was a long time.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Takes about 2 minutes for me to get a permit. The permit/no permit issue is not even a matter of discussion with the customer. If the work is permittable, we're just getting a permit and inspections, and that's that. Render unto Ceasar.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

Beleive me, guys, If I could get permits in one day, 90 % of my customers would have them. It's one thing that sets me apart from the tailgaters. THey don't always know or understand code, and they certainly can't do the drawings.

Some of the municipalities in the area do have in the summer a "fast track" day, where you can get a permit the same day. Typically, they only do it one night a week from 4PM till 8PM, from May 1 till Sept 1, and it's first come first serve. 
Before May or after August, there's no such thing, and I've gone before, arriving at 3:30 only to find 8 people in front of me. There's never more than 1 plans examiner, and I'm lucky if I get mine even looked at even if I stay till closing.
Imagine doing this ofr 100 plus decks a season.

Last deck I did with a permit: we dug the holes, then had to wait for inspection for depth (we have to go 4' down here). I had called three days before (they require notice), and asked the inspector to come "after noon". He showed up at 11 AM, and the holes weren't finished. He refused to look at the 5 out of 7 holes that were done. Tells my men to have me schedule another inspection. We call, and make another apointment for 2 days later. Because the crew won't be on site, my wife met him there (The inspector requires a plan on site: they apparently can't bring a copy of the one filed with their own office). She drives out and sits, waiting, in her car. It's raining (lightly)
the inspector doesn't show. She waits 3 hours, comes back to the office. We wait to call the next morning (Friday). Believe it or not, you can ONLY speak to an inspector between 8AM and 9:AM, after which they are on the road, and apparently are not allowed to use cel phones.
Anyway, my wife catches him the day after the rain, and without apology he explains that he didn't come to inspect the holes because it was raining.
She makes another apointment, for the next day (he couldn't go that afternoon as he was already booked). Actualy, it was for Monday. The homeowner is now pissed, because we started the holes on Monday, and this deck is suposed to be finished for a party 8 days later.
FINALLY he gets there Monday afternoon (too late for the crew to go back and set the concrete), looks at the approved plans that Rhonda brought, checks them against the copy he had in his files(!!! if he had acopy why did we have to be there?), and approves the holes.
This is now Monday afternoon. We started a week earlier, and all we wanted was to have 7 holes inspected.
The wood has been on site for a week, and the homeowner is PISSED. Of course, it's my fault. The big party is the following Sunday, and the deck has to be finished by then.
In the end, we more or less made it, but I had the homeowner mad at me, and then at the city, and finally telling me she regretted aplying for the permit in the first place. (it took SEVEN weeks!)

This is typical for ALL the municipapities we work in.
Now you know why I don't encourage people to get permits!

Oh, and by the way: the deck didn't pass final inspection the first two times, because he didn't like the way we made the roof support, even though it was done exactly the way I drew it and the city stamped it. Why didn't he accept it? he "didn't like our solution", even though the plans examiner had approved it.
We made minor changes, and he finaly signed off.


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## Same Old (Mar 9, 2007)

Canada.

They need to get their **** together. At most it takes about an hour to get a permit for anything less than a new house. Those will take a few days to a week depending on the city. Most cities you can get an inspection the same day if you call in the morning, next day at the most. 
My understanding is that the building departments are income generating for the city, they should get up to speed and start cashing in on a more streamlined system.


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

Stone Mountain said:


> Beleive me, guys, If I could get permits in one day, 90 % of my customers would have them. It's one thing that sets me apart from the tailgaters. THey don't always know or understand code, and they certainly can't do the drawings.
> 
> Some of the municipalities in the area do have in the summer a "fast track" day, where you can get a permit the same day. Typically, they only do it one night a week from 4PM till 8PM, from May 1 till Sept 1, and it's first come first serve.
> Before May or after August, there's no such thing, and I've gone before, arriving at 3:30 only to find 8 people in front of me. There's never more than 1 plans examiner, and I'm lucky if I get mine even looked at even if I stay till closing.
> ...


That's just ridiculous..


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

If a permit is required we try hard to factor the cost into the job and we obtain it. If the customer insists they do not want a permit, isn't that a red flag?

I have done jobs where the customer wants to get the permit, which means to me they are not getting the permit... but what I do is write a standard waiver into my proposal that states "Purchaser is responsible for obtaining all building permtis at their own expense necessary to start and complete this job. Purchaser assumes all financial responsiblity for any fines or penalties which contractor may incur if purchaser fails to obtain any necessay permits. Purchaser also idemnifys the contractor from any damages which occur to the property due to work stopages from failure to of the purchaser to obtain the necessary permits."


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

After reading stone mountains' post I can tell you there are some villages I refuse to work in because of similiar circumstances. 

Inspectors require ridiculous inspections, never show up on time, get pissed because we didn't wait for them, threaten us, don't show up for finals... It's a friggin mess.


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## GCC (Nov 2, 2007)

Same as Stone mountain's city down here in the Niagara Region of Canada,
I run about 12 jobs a year and have at most pulled 2 permits in one year.
Its just not worth it
; even the customers would rather not have one as they understand how much it slows the whole proccess down.
The city is now requires 6 to 8 weeks along with stamped drawings for a simple bathroom reno!!!They treat $5000.00 job they same way as a $50000.00 and think we are going the be able to wait around for them to show up. So now no one gets a permit unless its new living space being created or new build. The renovation industry is going full steam right now, so anybody with a pickup truck is a weekend contractor or worse full time ...I see a lot fix up work in the future...You guys down south should be glad your regulated & respected.


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## curapa (Oct 8, 2007)

Stone Mountain said:


> Last deck I did with a permit: we dug the holes, then had to wait for inspection for depth (we have to go 4' down here). I had called three days before (they require notice), and asked the inspector to come "after noon". He showed up at 11 AM, and the holes weren't finished. He refused to look at the 5 out of 7 holes that were done. Tells my men to have me schedule another inspection. We call, and make another apointment for 2 days later. Because the crew won't be on site, my wife met him there (The inspector requires a plan on site: they apparently can't bring a copy of the one filed with their own office). She drives out and sits, waiting, in her car. It's raining (lightly)
> the inspector doesn't show. She waits 3 hours, comes back to the office. We wait to call the next morning (Friday). Believe it or not, you can ONLY speak to an inspector between 8AM and 9:AM, after which they are on the road, and apparently are not allowed to use cel phones.
> Anyway, my wife catches him the day after the rain, and without apology he explains that he didn't come to inspect the holes because it was raining.
> She makes another apointment, for the next day (he couldn't go that afternoon as he was already booked). Actualy, it was for Monday. The homeowner is now pissed, because we started the holes on Monday, and this deck is suposed to be finished for a party 8 days later.
> ...


I have a similar story,

About four months ago I built a new construction deck that was drawn on the original plans submitted to the city.

The deck had a roof approx 16'x 14' that was existing when I arrived there to build the deck. I simply had to pour the pads, remove the temporary supports and install my posts. The first day I dug the 24" x 24" pads and installed the re bar just as shown on the plans. The next day I begin another job while waiting on the inspection, I get a call from the builder saying I failed inspection. The inspector says there needs to be a footer connecting from the house out to the end of the roof to support the post.

The builder argues with the city as to why this is a problem all of the sudden. The city gives him the run around and then tells him to have is architect to redraw the plans with the footer. The builder refuses to do so seeing as how he will have to pay his architect and myself extra for doing this even though it is unnecessary. 

A few days pass and the builder has another meeting with the inspector, they come to the conclusion that we need to dig a 36" x 36" pad for the posts to sit on.

We arrive four days after we had planned to start the deck due to the inconveniencies, dig the new footers and wait on the inspector. When the inspector arrives (a different one than before) she wonders why we have such big footers for this application?...She would have passed the first pads with no problem.

Every inspector that I have met has been a retard.


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## mikezap (Aug 10, 2007)

"every inspector that I've ever met has been a retard"

HA! That's exactly what I thought when I started reading these posts. Most I've ever ran into were complete control freaks (because they got their azzes kicked in HS) or washed up contractors (booze). But in hindsight, I've made friends with most and actually ski with one.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

A postscript to my earlier post.
The province of Ontario has a new law with regards to getting a deck permit. (for that matter, any building permit.)
It must now be signed off by a person with a BCIN. That is an acronym of "Building Code Identification Number". In other words, any person who designs an addition, renovation, building or whatever, must have a BCIN. This includeds Decks.
I have started my course to get such a designation. Now, if I wanted to get my licence as a plumber, HVAC or electrician, I need only pass an exam about that specific trade. However, to design decks legally, I must have my BCIN, which requires me to pass a rigiourous test on the ENTIRE building code, which includes, all those trades as well as legal, and a whole wack of other stuff. The Building code books that I have to know consist of 2 800 page manuals. If I was in school full time, it's 2 year course to become a building inspector, who has to pass this exact exam.

Now, the irony of all this is that when submitting for a permit, the owner has to fill out a government mandated form that asks who the designer is. If the homeowner puts me down, I Must have by law a BCIN. If, however, the homeowner puts himself down as designer, he does NOT require a BCIN. He can submit my drawings and say they are his, the clerk will nod (with a wink), and accept the plans. If there is a BCIN, the municipal government must issue a permit within 10 days. Without a BCIN, there is no time constraint. In practice, either way takes 3-6 weeks. 
To get around this, I can hire a guy with a BCIN (a lot of municipal examiners moonlight doing this), but they charge $200 or more. Some insist on doing their own drawings and thus they charge even more. 
We are just starting a double deck for a heritage building for which a permit was required. We also had to get permission from the Historical society. I made my own drawings, but because of the historical requirement we had to get a BCIN. He literally copied my drawings and specifications, to the letter, except his looked prettier. For this he charged $900.00.

Now that we have to do this, even less people want to have permits. Absolutely no one wants to wait a month to get the permit, no one wants to spent the money for a BCIN (damn it, if I wind up getting one I'm gonna charge as well), and the aggravation factor is too high. The main reason I don't walk away from a non permit job is because if I do, the next guy will definitely take it. I'm between a rock and a hard place. I need food on the table just like everyone. Whaddya do?


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

The law here is $600 or more needs a permit. But Im finding out the stupid inspectors dont give a crap about anything. They can care less if your unlicensed and since the unlicensed dont need permits why do I? :furious:


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## Express (Nov 9, 2007)

*It's better to Permit-It now than to pay for it later.*

Getting a permit in most states is a real hastle. I have been doing this for over 18 years just for that very reason. Depending upon what state/county/city your in would determine whether or not you need a permit for changing out a garage door. If I can be of any help let me know.


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## vwovw (Mar 9, 2007)

i just built this garage without a permit. got this far before they got me. I tore down the burnt one and rebuilt this one. everything is the same except I went with trusses with a 10x10x20 room above. when I built it 3 years ago i used rafters. thats the only difference.
new








old








new








old


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## vwovw (Mar 9, 2007)

its in a historic neighborhood. the permit dept said they dont know anything. that i need to get a certificate of appropriateness from the neighbor hood association. the assc only votes once a month. i built this in two days. the roofers where scheduled the next day. two more days and they'd never had known. Well i paid the $10.00 for the assc to vote on nov 28th. the garage is 20x 20 with a 12/12 roof 24' tall code is 17' in typical neighbor hoods. when i built it the first time the assc made me build it with a 12/12 which made it 20 tall. the assc gets what it wants. i'll let you know what the permit and development fine me.arty:


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

It is one thing to build a deck around the back where it can't be seen. It's another entirely to build a 20' tall 400 sq ft garage easily seen when walking or driving by. Even my most obstinate customer wouldn't do a structure like that without a permit. Not meaning to flame you, but that is a little.......dumb.


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## woodmagman (Feb 17, 2007)

mikezap said:


> "every inspector that I've ever met has been a retard"
> 
> HA! That's exactly what I thought when I started reading these posts. Most I've ever ran into were complete control freaks (because they got their azzes kicked in HS) or washed up contractors (booze). But in hindsight, I've made friends with most and actually ski with one.


So your new play friends are control freaks and washed up drunken contractors that were high school hall monitors. Wow! I would keep that to myself....:laughing:


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## woodmagman (Feb 17, 2007)

vwovw said:


> i just built this garage without a permit. got this far before they got me. I tore down the burnt one and rebuilt this one. everything is the same except I went with trusses with a 10x10x20 room above. when I built it 3 years ago i used rafters. thats the only difference.
> new


You can not blame them, that could be a missle silo.....:laughing:


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## vwovw (Mar 9, 2007)

Stone Mountain said:


> It is one thing to build a deck around the back where it can't be seen. It's another entirely to build a 20' tall 400 sq ft garage easily seen when walking or driving by. Even my most obstinate customer wouldn't do a structure like that without a permit. Not meaning to flame you, but that is a little.......dumb.


well with winter coming soon i'm glad to have it almost finished. if i would have went the proper route then i'd still be waiting for the vote on the 28th. I like to work indoors when my air guns won't work and i hate adding pneumatic anti freeze to my lines. two days of work and i'm done. if i could have pulled a permit that day and no vote then i would have but a month:whistling


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

The last time I dealed with a permit it took over 2 months to get. My dads been trying to get a electrical permit and its been over 3 months now but the inspector told him he can work without it.


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm usually a sub contractor and around here they make the GC buy all the permits for the various trades. Sometimes if I'm dealing direct with a homeowner, I'll pull a permit.

But probably 50% of the remodels I wire do not have permits. Getting permits triggers a plethora (my favorite word) of problems for the homeowner.

Buying a permit causes the county assessor to increase the value of your house, thus triggering an increase in property taxes. The HO will be paying taxes on that kitchen remodel for the rest of their lives.

Permits themselves can cost thousands of dollars.

Often the City will only issue a permit on the condition that the HO pay for a new streetlight or widen the road in front of their house. This is a reprehensible practice but not uncommon.

Because of California's energy conservation codes (title 24) people who obtain permits are rewarded with a kitchen lit solely with fluorescent lighting.

People don't like permits. If a customer of mine does not want a permit , I add to my contract "Permits are responsibility of home owner".


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

L. B. Condulet said:


> People don't like permits. If a customer of mine does not want a permit , I add to my contract "Permits are responsibility of home owner".


I dont think that would hold up in court. If somthing happend like a fire and you take the fall they will see you didnt get a permit and a inspection. Even if it wasnt your fault I think this would give them a reason to blame you.


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

Michaeljp86 said:


> I dont think that would hold up in court. If somthing happend like a fire and you take the fall they will see you didnt get a permit and a inspection. Even if it wasnt your fault I think this would give them a reason to blame you.


I don't get this whole "hold up in court" thing. There's no law in California that says contractors are required to pull permits. Of course there is a law that says permits are required for various sorts of work, but the law is silent on who is supposed to pull that permit.

When the building department discovers that a job has been done without a permit, they site the property owner. The focus of the building department is oddly enough, buildings. Around here anybody can pull a permit.

Permits are required, and for an additional fee, I, as a service to my customer can obtain them, or my customer can obtain them. If they choose not to obtain them, it's really none of my business.


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## trptman (Mar 26, 2007)

In addition to delays in getting permits, I always love it when I'm told two different things by the same inspector at two different times regarding the same situation..
I also love it when the guy is just wrong about something and I have to "argue" with him to show where I'm in the right and he's not.

That always makes things easier the next time I see him...

Also, if they would'nt stride around like General Patton on your jobsite it might make people more eager to go the permit route.

After a while you sure get tired of dealing with that crap. But he keeps his job year after year...He must be related to one of the towns founders or something, I don't know.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

L. B. Condulet said:


> I don't get this whole "hold up in court" thing. There's no law in California that says contractors are required to pull permits. Of course there is a law that says permits are required for various sorts of work, but the law is silent on who is supposed to pull that permit.
> 
> When the building department discovers that a job has been done without a permit, they site the property owner. The focus of the building department is oddly enough, buildings. Around here anybody can pull a permit.
> 
> Permits are required, and for an additional fee, I, as a service to my customer can obtain them, or my customer can obtain them. If they choose not to obtain them, it's really none of my business.


This is what I understood from studying for my GC license. Anything over $600 needs to have a permit pulled and be inspected. 

Lets say the house burned up, they home owner says I had a electrician here last week and he did blah blah blah. Then they see you didnt pull a permit when you were required to and didnt have the work inspected like the law says and of course the inspector would have seen the mistake that burned the house down.  

Now if the work was inspected and was passed and the house burns they wont go blaming you right away. 

The house across the street burned up. The fire investigators said it was caused by electrical. The guy next door had a pot smoking son who said he was hopped up down the basement and set the place on fire. These fire investigators dont always know what caused it, I think they find the easy way out and electrical is a easy target.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

WOW, I dont think I would pull permits if I had to deal with 3 inspections on 7 post holes, here I can call before 7am and get same day!:thumbup:


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## Tmrrptr (Mar 22, 2007)

Doing work without proper permits is a fine method to jeopardize your license.
r


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

:drink:


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## mikezap (Aug 10, 2007)

Wow woodfagman, you sure read into peoples post pretty well. I've made friends with most of the inspectors in my small town. Some are drunks(I'm not), some are control freaks(I'm not), but I'd rather be their friend on inspection day than enemy.


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

I once had footing inspected. Site was an addition on the back of the house which was down a steep driveway. The Inspector Showed Up ON TIME

He wasnt getting out of the car so I walked up the driveway to find out whats wrong. He askes me what size rebar I have in the footing. I tell him and then he said, are you doing the footing drains too. I said yes, thats all part of out work. He said. GREAT, your all set!:blink: He inspected the footings which were not visiable from the road without ever getting out of his car. :no:

Years later, he is nailed. The town installed GPS in all of their vehicles. Some contractor bitched about this guy not showing up. :furious:The town said, Oh yes he did, he passed your inspection at this time.:whistling Guys tells them he was never on site that dayand wants some answers:clap: They do some research using the new GPS and it turns out his vehicle was in another state and get this....at a known "Massage Parlour" :whistlingat the time he supposedly inspected this guys job! 

Needless to say, he has been fired, but they actually reordered inspections for all of his work! :blink: Thats right, footings had to be dug up, walls opened and guess who was stuck with the bills for that work:furious: Well needless to say, there are numerous lawsuits hitting the town over this.


One final point on Not Getting an Inspection:

THANK YOU...Yes, Thanks, see a lot of my work is trying to get homeowners a CO. How do I get this work. Well when you don't get the inspections and the homeowner dosn't get a CO. Well, THEY CAN'T SELL THEIR HOUSE! You know they are cursing you out at that point! Then they have to hire me to come in and dig up footings, open walls, draw up plans and hope the inspector is having a good day that day because you are totally at his mercy. Since alot of these are not discovered until well after building practices have changed, most of this work does not meet current code. 

I have two decks right now that will have to be removed and rebuilt to current code. The buyers want the deck there and the sellers are now forced to pay for a new deck they will never use. On top of this, there is the potential court case if the town really wants to go after you. We had one addition that had to be removed as it was too close to the property line and they could not get a variance. Another bedroom had to be gutted because it was only approved for a two bedroom house and they added a third in the basement. Basement had to be gutted to the bare walls. 

So yeah, getting inspections might be troublesom, but not getting them is far worse at some future date. 

FYI: Knowing all this, I tried to fill in my yard without a permit. I got served with a court appearance and it took 7 months of court dates as well as planning and zoning board meetings to finally get it resolved. Meanwhile, my yard looks like a construction site and now that winter is aroudn the corner, no work till the Spring for me.


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## wireless (Nov 2, 2006)

Michaeljp86 said:


> This is what I understood from studying for my GC license. Anything over $600 needs to have a permit pulled and be inspected.
> 
> Lets say the house burned up, they home owner says I had a electrician here last week and he did blah blah blah. Then they see you didnt pull a permit when you were required to and didnt have the work inspected like the law says and of course the inspector would have seen the mistake that burned the house down.
> 
> ...


With that reasoning you could be liable for $50.00 worth of work also, you should need a permit for everything.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

wireless said:


> With that reasoning you could be liable for $50.00 worth of work also, you should need a permit for everything.


Yes you would take the heat for it. But if the $50 job goes to court because the house burned up you still followed the rules because you dont need a permit if its under $600. If the house catches fire and you go to court and see you didnt obay the law you would get in more trouble.

I know a guy who set a church on fire before and had permits and never lost his license. 

I know people who lost their license for something no where near as bad as that.

Accidents happen but if it goes to court and you broke the law for not getting a permit now your in trouble with the home owner and the department of labor & econamic growth.


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## vwovw (Mar 9, 2007)

remember every state has different rules. lose my license for not pulling a permit. not so here. no license required in IOWA. unfortunately.


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

Michaeljp86 said:


> Accidents happen but if it goes to court and you broke the law for not getting a permit


In my contracts I include the language "homeowner responsible for permits". Since there is no law (in California) that requires the contractor to pull the permit, this clause in my contract insulates me from liability.

75% of all residential permits in Los Angeles are pulled by the property owner.

Since everyone here is convinced that if no permit is pulled, and a fire results, the contractor is automatically to blame, in similar situations where a permit is pulled, then is the inspector held liable for the fire?


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

L. B. Condulet said:


> Since everyone here is convinced that if no permit is pulled, and a fire results, the contractor is automatically to blame, in similar situations where a permit is pulled, then is the inspector held liable for the fire?


 
If the the house burns up and you did get a permit and the inspector passed it then you still never broke the law and that what the judge will look for.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I know this much..If the cause of the fire is from "faulty wiring" then the HO and the HO's insurance is going to look for something or somebody to blame.


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

Michaeljp86 said:


> If the the house burns up and you did get a permit and the inspector passed it then you still never broke the law and that what the judge will look for.


Ya know, never in my entire life have I heard of a house fire that subsequently involved any investigation beyond how the fire was caused. Let's say I wired a house 20 years ago and did not obtain a permit, suddenly an electrical fire burns the house down, they're gonna come looking for me?

Highly unlikely. I'm gonna have to conclude this myth busted!


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

JumboJack said:


> I know this much..If the cause of the fire is from "faulty wiring" then the HO and the HO's insurance is going to look for something or somebody to blame.


Perhaps the best argument against carrying liability insurance.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

L. B. Condulet said:


> Ya know, never in my entire life have I heard of a house fire that subsequently involved any investigation beyond how the fire was caused. Let's say I wired a house 20 years ago and did not obtain a permit, suddenly an electrical fire burns the house down, they're gonna come looking for me?
> 
> Highly unlikely. I'm gonna have to conclude this myth busted!


I was thinking more like a month after you finished.


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

Michaeljp86 said:


> I was thinking more like a month after you finished.


I don't think you can call yourself an electrician until you've burned down your first house. Mine was over 20 years ago, and even though there have been many that have burned since then, you always remember your first.

Houses just don't burst into flames as soon as you cash the check, they typically smolder for awhile, sometimes it takes years before you get a seriously raging conflagration.

Most house fires are electrical in origin and most of these electrical systems were inspected by electrical inspectors.

Just connect the dots and you'll see that most fires have one thing in common: The job was visited at one time by an electrical inspector. I'm certainly not suggesting that electrical inspectors are arsonists, but it can't be just a coincidence that they were present at each house, years before the houses caught fire.

Definitely food for thought.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

L. B. Condulet said:


> I don't think you can call yourself an electrician until you've burned down your first house. Mine was over 20 years ago, and even though there have been many that have burned since then, you always remember your first.


You wouldnt happen to live in california would you?????


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

joasis said:


> Of course, a handyman can come along and remove the garage doors and make living space out of it without a permit. I have seen this done....dens with gas waterheaters behind plywood screens....


Funny you mention that. I put new entry doors in house. I drove into the driveway when I went to do the estimate and there are two garage doors in front of me. I ring the door bell and nobody answers. I heard a radio or tv when i walked past the garage so I looked in the window to see if somebody was in there. They had a whole "mother-in-law" apartment that they had made out of the garage. From the street it looks like the normal double garage. 
I'd hate to be the HO when they either want to sell the house or when the tax assessor comes for reassessment.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

TimNJ said:


> Funny you mention that. I put new entry doors in house. I drove into the driveway when I went to do the estimate and there are two garage doors in front of me. I ring the door bell and nobody answers. I heard a radio or tv when i walked past the garage so I looked in the window to see if somebody was in there. They had a whole "mother-in-law" apartment that they had made out of the garage. From the street it looks like the normal double garage.
> I'd hate to be the HO when they either want to sell the house or when the tax assessor comes for reassessment.


Ive been noticing it alot around here, I alwasy thought it looked stupid. There is one house near here where they blocked in both garage doors with that fake field stone and have a row of windows over it. And the house is white clapboard, looks ugly as sin.

There was another one who turned the 2 car garage into a screened in porch by blocking both doors with screen panels.


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## RenaissanceR (May 16, 2006)

*Some people...*

[ deleted ]


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

RenaissanceR said:


> Once had a client (who I bailed out on), who wanted some work done, stopped by the residence to discuss things and was shown the building permit, with my name and license written on it. Funny, I didn't recall signing the permit.
> 
> Another recent "client" wanted me to pull the permit, and have her handyman
> friend and his cousin do the work, they are not licensed, I am. Can't put into print here what my reaction / comments were....


All the cities Ive seen so far will give anyone a permit. My dad pulled a electrical permit on a dueplex and they wont give him the permit yet because the building inspector needs to figure out what other permits he needs to get. My dad is a electrician and the building inspector wants to use him as a GC:blink:. What a moron


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## vwovw (Mar 9, 2007)

vwovw said:


> its in a historic neighborhood. the permit dept said they dont know anything. that i need to get a certificate of appropriateness from the neighbor hood association. the assc only votes once a month. i built this in two days. the roofers where scheduled the next day. two more days and they'd never had known. Well i paid the $10.00 for the assc to vote on nov 28th. the garage is 20x 20 with a 12/12 roof 24' tall code is 17' in typical neighbor hoods. when i built it the first time the assc made me build it with a 12/12 which made it 20 tall. the assc gets what it wants. i'll let you know what the permit and development fine me.arty:


PASSED:whistling


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## vwovw (Mar 9, 2007)

i had to sit from 5 till 10 pm listening to other peoples historical certificate of appropriateness. i was last:sad: but i passed.:thumbup: no fine yet. i' go to city permit&development tomorrow.


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