# tiling shower and seat



## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

You never thinset to poly, not sure what you are stating, I'm in Hicksville neighbor.

And as far as the screws, what are you using them for, the CBU, once moisture gets under the slab or through it and it WILL, it will rot everything out, believe me, I know, ripped many out.

Going to bed now, have to get up early for work, will continue this tomorrow.:thumbup:


----------



## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

R&D Tile said:


> You never thinset to poly, not sure what you are stating, I'm in Hicksville neighbor.
> 
> And as far as the screws, what are you using them for, the CBU, once moisture gets under the slab or through it and it WILL, it will rot everything out, believe me, I know, ripped many out.
> 
> Going to bed now, have to get up early for work, will continue this tomorrow.:thumbup:


 goodnight , im out also:thumbup:


----------



## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Somebody show me where all of this nonsense is located in any of the tile installation handbooks please. You can't simply glue any cement board to anything, no way that will last.


----------



## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

So.....where's the picture that was promised? That would be a big help.


----------



## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Bud Cline said:


> Somebody show me where all of this nonsense is located in any of the tile installation handbooks please. You can't simply glue any cement board to anything, no way that will last.


here is another example, the first one showed the specs for thinset, this one shows another clearly spelled out system...G

http://askville.amazon.com/build-shower-seat/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2951076

There are numerous options for your seat material. You can use ceramic tile, marble, granite, cultured marble, or solid surface countertop material. If you use ceramic tile, you must first install a piece of cementitious board over the membrane. Do not nail the board through the membrane! Simply mix one part cement and one part sand. Make the mixture fairly wet. Apply a one quarter to one half inch thick layer of this cement paste on top of the membrane. Set the cut piece of cement board directly in the mixture. Use a level to check the seat for level left to right as you face the seat. A slight pitch towards the center of the shower will allow water to drain off the seat.


membrane is the vinyle


----------



## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Bud Cline said:


> Somebody show me where all of this nonsense is located in any of the tile installation handbooks please. You can't simply glue any cement board to anything, no way that will last.


one more and i am going to bed, Waterproofing is accomplished by using the vinyl membranes that are used beneath ceramic tile floors. Simply purchase and install a continuous sheet from the floor, up the front of the bench over the seat and up the back of the seat wall about six inches. The membrane is only nailed at the top edges. You will have to penetrate the front bench wall surface with nails when you install the vertical piece of cement board. This is not a problem, as I have yet to develop a leak in my shower after 15 years. is accomplished by using the vinyl membranes that are used beneath ceramic tile floors. Simply purchase and install a continuous sheet from the floor, up the front of the bench over the seat and up the back of the seat wall about six inches. The membrane is only nailed at the top edges. You will have to penetrate the front bench wall surface with nails when you install the vertical piece of cement board. This is not a problem, as I have yet to develop a leak in my shower after 15 years. The marble or granite seat simply lays in a thin bed of cement mortar on the vinyl membrane. If you choose to install ceramic tile on the seat, just cut a piece of cement board first and install it as you would the granite or marble. Never nail through  marble or granite seat simply lays in a thin bed of cement mortar on the vinyl membrane. If you choose to install ceramic tile on the seat, just cut a piece of cement board first and install it as you would the granite or marble. Never nail through 


somebody show me where all of this nonsense is about not being able to glue cement board, it does last, goodnight all, i am tired, G


----------



## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

I give up, that link is nonsense and all of this is incorrect, except what I have stated so far as to how it SHOULD be done.

I'm now done with this thread and good luck to those who install it their way.


----------



## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

just use a better bench and kerdi from now on. :whistling


----------



## TilePRO (Sep 29, 2008)

*Read Carefully*

Best thing before you start tiling is to durock the seat top and front face and use galvanized or stainless steel drywall screws and silicone the heads so its water proof again, when you do that make sure silicone the back of te durock and stick it to the liner also. If you will still tile the top and face I recommend that you use bigger tiles and use thin-set instead of glue, that will make it stronger and long lasting, Start finishing front face and around shower first and finish top part of the seat. On the front top edge and side of the seat you should use matching bullnose so tip of the tile does not hurt people. I would also recommend that you use thin-set up to 4 feet high in the shower area and the rest you could use glue if you want.

You should mud and tile shower pan floor after durocking and then start doing everything else.

This is the best you can do, but if you want a comfy seat spend some money and buy a 1 piece slab that matches the tile. better looking, longer lasting easier to maintain.



NOTICE:This is best of my knowledge and it is your responsibility to do the job right, please do not blame it on me if you do something wrong or job does not come out the way you want.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2008)

sorry for the no pics and all the arguing going on but here the pics.


----------



## TilePRO (Sep 29, 2008)

well you definately need another piece of liner to replace with the existing . Your plumber is no good!! He should have installed a single piece I see that seat membrance and shower floor membrance is two different pieces. NO GOOD!!!!!


----------



## MAD Renovations (Nov 18, 2007)

Rip that liner out....... It is in no way a waterproof membrane in the state it is in. Get a book and learn how to install Kerdi. Schluter Systems offer several complete shower kits with everything you need to do a proper "WATER PROOF" shower.


----------



## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

> NOTICE:This is best of my knowledge and it is your responsibility to do the job right, please do not blame it on me if you do something wrong or job does not come out the way you want.


And it will if you follow those instructions.:no:

I doubt there's a even a pre-slope from what I see in those photos.

And, if you continue with that shower the way it is, you will be in BIG trouble real SOON...


Enough of this, it's wrong, needs to be completely redone correctly.


Oh and, not even going to start with the curb, that's another story, not to mention the liner is about 8" too low, forget it, done ranting, good night.


----------



## MAD Renovations (Nov 18, 2007)

R&D Tile said:


> And it will if you follow those instructions.:no:
> 
> I doubt there's a even a pre-slope from what I see in those photos.
> 
> ...


 
:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## ddm (Jul 21, 2005)

I'd tear the bench and membrane out and start over, a shower constructed like that will never last. You may consider using block for your bench on top of the liner.


----------



## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

please tell me that is not a steam shower.


----------



## TilePRO (Sep 29, 2008)

It is not even shower, it is a steam room! wont even last 3 months like this, big trouble! rip it out and have a licensed and experienced plumber reinstall the liner for you.


----------



## 415moto (Jun 6, 2006)

Wow, is all I can say...
Where is water that makes it under the tile supposed to go, under the seat into the framing?

If the pan and seat WAS waterproofed correctly, Id say the answer is to mud the pan and seat. Doesn't seem like too many people do that anymore, but thats what we do on all our showers, seat or no seat. We use hot mop out here...sometimes you run into the rubber liners, but most are hot mopped.


----------



## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

one piece needs to be used, and it must include the curb, also the face of the seat face must extend, not terminate tight in the corner, glue should be used to stick to substrate, other than that, YOUR FINE.

uh oo, just noticed the face of the bench is not sheathed either, that is CRAZY, entire bench needs to sheathed first, then liner, the wonderboard, if you are using that type of system...liner also needs to come further up wall, as far as preslope, not required here, tile guy SHOULD handle slope with muddddd


----------



## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

kevjob said:


> please tell me that is not a steam shower.


 
look at photo #1:blink:


----------



## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

1" per ft:










Dual slope:


----------



## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

holy crap  wow nice shower in the last couple of pics Chris! I like the flat in between the slopes I tried that in that shower in the pic and it looked to choppy. You use kerdi Chris?


----------



## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

I will likely use Kerdi for the next steam shower we do. For these I used 9235.


----------



## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

I agree, very nice work there guys.:thumbsup:

HOWEVER.....there is so much wrong info in this thread that it is scary.  Sorry, but Mr. Renovator and Genecarp, Don't know what they are doing, to put it bluntly. How else can it be said? No need now to go over all the bad advice, just disregard what they said. 

In case you guys wanna learn how to build showers, start a thread.

Jaz


----------



## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

Chris, nice work, but, you stated you use 9235 for the steam showers, it's not rated for them unless used with a vapor barrier, it's waterproof but will let gasses through, same with their new Hydroban.

Kerdi is the way to go in the future.


----------



## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Yes, "with vapor barrier."

Kerdi does look like a much better system, though.


----------



## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

JazMan said:


> I agree, very nice work there guys.:thumbsup:
> 
> HOWEVER.....there is so much wrong info in this thread that it is scary.  Sorry, but Mr. Renovator and Genecarp, Don't know what they are doing, to put it bluntly. How else can it be said? No need now to go over all the bad advice, just disregard what they said.
> 
> ...


Jazgenius, here are a couple of pros from JOHNS BRIDGE, they are commenting on a the neccesity of pitching a residential steam unit cieling. you, like many others, are only able to think in one way. you parrot what you have heard others say, but probably dont have the field experiance to realize that there are many ways to accomplish a task in construction, i offer you this challenge, rather than just say " ITS WRONG, ITS WRONG, YOU CANT DO IT , YOU CANT DO IT, lets gather some research, and spell it out here, specifically what i have said that is incorrect, i suspect the best you will come up with is, ITS JUST WRONG!!!!G
A residential steamer can have a flat ceiling. It takes about 45 minutes for the dripping to even begin to form. Way longer than most people steam for. Commercial units run 24/7. Those need the sloped ceiling. Glass doors will have a steam dump panel above the door. Light fixtures for a steam shower are few and rare. Very expensive and very low lumen output. I wish someone at the major lighting companies would come up with a product.


http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=62378


----------



## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Here is one more from, JLC, this veteran contributor explains it well regarding slopped cielings
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42257


----------



## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

Slopped ceilings?......did you hear me mention your ceiling error? Your bad advice about waterproofing is more important than that.

Really Gene (?), the way you described the installation of the CBU and method of waterproofing is laughable. 

I am a member of the John Bridge forum, (I even know John and Patti), Why don't you copy and paste your answers there and see how many member laugh at you and offer help?

I am also a member at JLC, and 7 other tile forums. How do you know that I can only think in one way? Which way is that? Maybe by the book, following instructions, knowing what works long terms? You want me to make a list of all the wrong advice you gave? Why don't you go back and re-read what you wrote first?

Jaz


----------



## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

This thread is full of bad advice. There IS more than one way to do things but the nonsense showing up in this thread is bad news. Here's one example that comes from one of the early referrals.



> Make the mixture fairly wet. Apply a one quarter to one half inch thick layer of this cement paste on top of the membrane. Set the cut piece of cement board directly in the mixture. Use a level to check the seat for level left to right as you face the seat. A slight pitch towards the center of the shower will allow water to drain off the seat.


This is how this character says you build a bench using a pan liner material.

#1.Make the mixture fairly wet.
#2.Apply a one quarter to one half inch thick layer of this cement paste on top of the membrane.

How's that gonna work, exactly???

ARE YA KIDDIN' ME????


----------



## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Bud Cline said:


> This thread is full of bad advice. There IS more than one way to do things but the nonsense showing up in this thread is bad news. Here's one example that comes from one of the early referrals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

JazMan said:


> Slopped ceilings?......did you hear me mention your ceiling error? Your bad advice about waterproofing is more important than that.
> 
> Really Gene (?), the way you described the installation of the CBU and method of waterproofing is laughable.
> 
> ...


you are already in, dont rip it apart, this type of application, if it is what i think, it can work out, first off make sure the bench framing had slight pitch, then the membrane should have been glued to the bench, stick wonderboard or the similar to the bench surface, (if you must), use a couple of carefully placed screws, i know, everyone is going to yell, , talk the ho into using slab mat to cover the entire bench area, including the riser. slabs to be thinset to the wonderboard !!!!


OK JAZZY, here is post #1, in the way i demonstrated (in the above post #71) an intelligent person disputes a construction technique, please feel free to explain to us , with *REASONS* (THE BASES FOR ALL GOOD INTELLIGENT DEBATE) why you dispute this advice. we await your response. G


PS I just checked out your website, you responses and comments are now making more sense to me,,,,


----------



## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

LMAO, this is too much, wet thinset, dry thinset, doesn't matter, no good.

Let's move on, now that we know how to build a bench to last, or some of us anyway.:thumbsup:


----------



## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

R&D Tile said:


> LMAO, this is too much, wet thinset, dry thinset, doesn't matter, no good.
> 
> Let's move on, now that we know how to build a bench to last, or some of us anyway.:thumbsup:


Yes neighbor, this is starting to bore me as well, no one here seems to be able to support there position with solid evidence, or at least even make a good argument, all that anyone has been able to say is ITS WRONG, YOU CANT DO IT. i obviously disagree, the system i described was in response to the OP. he described a situation (that he had, existing) that i have personally seen and done MANY TIMES over the past 25 years, i wont go into all the never a problem stuff, BUT THE MAJORITY OF MY CLIENTS have been with me for 20+ years...would this be my first choice as a way to build a bench? NO, steams and REG showers i would opt for WEDI #`1. Anyway, i have supported my posistion with other documents that show the procedures i outlined as acceptable, i am sure there are many more books and experts who if i had more time, i would seek out and post here. i am over and out of this thread, unless someone comes back with a solid argument to make, i will not hold my breath. G


----------



## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

> i have supported my posistion with other documents that show the procedures i outlined as acceptable


Show me one that does, and NOT links to other installers who don't know diddly.:whistling

For hopefully the last time, you CAN NOT glue, thinset, weld, anchor, screw etc, etc, etc CBU over PVC or CPE liner on a bench, then install a slab of stone and expect it to last.

CAN it be done, YES, you tile over carpet too.

It needs to be waterproofed on the face, moisture will find it's way in otherwise, very simple, not rocket science, think about it.

The photos of the kerdi repair I posted was done exactly that way, CBU over a liner, you don't want to know what it looked like under there when we ripped it all out.


----------



## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

R&D Tile said:


> Show me one that does, and NOT links to other installers who don't know diddly.:whistling
> 
> OK HERE,
> 
> http://www.askthebuilder.com/168_Ceramic_Shower_Seat.shtml


----------



## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

BTW, HERE IS TIM CARTERS HISTORY, THE CREATOR OF ASK THE BUILDER, to summarize he has been in the business for 34 years, was voted one of the top 50 remodelers in 1993 by remodeling magazine etcc etc... what else can i say, i will dig up more stuff, in my free time, but as i have continually stated no one has giving me anything more than, IT WONT WORK!!!, I AM SURE the next comments will be " this recognized tradesman with years in the biz is a dummy, with once again no solid argument from anyone. G
http://www.askthebuilder.com/carter.shtml


----------



## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

OMG, I am not surprised YOU brought up Tim Carter. Tim Carter has no idea what round he's in. A total hack when it come to tiling. We have gone thru some of his hack methods before....several times here and at other professional forums.

For a good laugh go to YOUTube to see some of his handy-work. 

Start with this GEM! :laughing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzq5AGa2PTI

Jaz


----------



## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

From the TCNA installation manual on page 60 " slope ceilings 2" per ft min. to avoid condensation... TCNA SR614-05. These are the guys who set the standards I adhere to.


----------



## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

What a joke this guy is, and how did he attach the CBU to the front of the liner on the seat bench, he didn't explain that part, did he.:no:

Maybe we can get Bob you know who in here and tell us how it should be done.

Oh wait maybe Dean Johnson can join in also, they all know more than I do about tiling.

I guess if you have ripped out enough seats as I have installed that way and seen what happens, you'd think twice, but wait, Tim is the tile God, can't be, he's the expert above all, it has to work, why, cause he said so, I guess my 25 plus years doesn't count, haven't made a video yet.

This is really too funny now.

And to those who are reading all of this and want to know how to install a waterproof shower seat, I'm sure this isn't helping any, go to JBs place and ask this very same question, you won't find ONE installer out of hundreds there who will back up this nonsense, but again, Tim must know more than all of us, eh.


----------

