# need an opinion or 20 lol



## terrynistler (Dec 5, 2006)

I was called out this morning to go look at a house that was just purchased and go over the home inspectors list and fix those problems. I am not going to go in the list to keep it short but here is my main stickler which wasn't on the list. The panel is a newer 200 amp in the attic accessible only by an outside porch scuttle hole 12 feet off the ground. Service feed is #6 going through eve. I have to meet the house inspector tomorrow because when I told them I couldn't fix the list without fixing that and 50 other things basically a reposition and rewire they got irate. The scuttle hole is 18x18 push up cover on back porch. I will attach pics tomorrow when I go back with digital wasn't in the truck today. I tried finding any specific code issues to site to the home inspector but really can't find any other then ocp readily accessible which this is not. Tired long day help me out a little please. I don't ask alot


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Home inspectors are a bunch of well meaning guys, who generally red flag the wost items. Not noticing a #6 service entrance conductors in the riser terminated on a 200 amp breaker seems like a screw-up. Everyone's entitled to those every once in a while. Home inspectors carry insurance for that.

Working space at that panel is one issue. 6-1/2 feet of headroom, etc. I think you need a permanent stairway for that panel to be legal too, if memory serves. I'm getting sick or something, and don't have the energy to look up a code reference.


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## terrynistler (Dec 5, 2006)

You are correct on both and I have those codes and the def of readily accessible ready for the meeting. Also A code on size of opening portal. they have 4' total headroom and opening is at bottom of panel so stand on ladder to fix. That is also a violation regardless of permanent or not ladder access I believe. These people tried there best to go in prepared but still paid top dollar. The cost is biting them now plus my liability of fixing only whats on the list when I noticed 50 more things. The inspector did qualify that it should be reviewed by an electrician. That they failed to do till today. I hope you get to feeling better and thanks.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

terrynistler said:


> The inspector did qualify that it should be reviewed by an electrician. That they failed to do till today. .


Well then, the home inspector is cleared. It seems once they've found a certain amount of items, they'll throw in a blanket "deferr to an electrician" statement. I don't blame them for that. They're not comprehensive code inspectors. The new homeowners failed to have an electrician look it over completely before the close, and now they want to whine and cry. It's their fault. Sharpen your interpersonal skills and your sales skills and tell them they'll have to bite the bullet. 

I know you've had a long week so far, but there's nobody making you do this job. Make your list, check it twice, and submit your price. Resist the urge to cut a corner just to do the people a favor. They made this bed, and they'll need to lay in it.


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## terrynistler (Dec 5, 2006)

LOL thats pretty much to the letter what I told them. I know the home inspector and he is about the best in the region but I told them if I did that job there is no way I could address every code issue in that many trades and they should have read the comments section and took it more seriously and called me then. Still a total rewire and reposition of the panel is not cheap for them I gave them my qoute already the house is 50% cloth cover and 48% romex no g. 2% romex w/g. The bad part is that they called another electrician and he said the panel as it is is no problem and he could fix them up for 4 grand. Wait for the pictures.....


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

terrynistler said:


> The bad part is that they called another electrician and he said the panel as it is is no problem and he could fix them up for 4 grand.


They could be bluffing. BUT, in the event that another electrician does just "patch it up", that's a job I'd drop a dime on.


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## terrynistler (Dec 5, 2006)

Wow that is why I found that dime in the parking lot today! :whistling


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

NEC articles 110.26 and 230.70 (A)(1) come to mind first.

#6 for 200AMP? :laughing: 

Maybe you could install an outside disconnect, upgrade the feeders, isolate your equipment grounds and neutrals, and make the main panel into a sub panel.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Magnettica said:


> Maybe you could install an outside disconnect, upgrade the feeders, isolate your equipment grounds and neutrals, and make the main panel into a sub panel.


Except for the fact that the panel is in the attic, with very little headroom, and only a little scuttle hole to get up to it. No way in this lifetime I'd refeed that panel mounted in that location.


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## terrynistler (Dec 5, 2006)

230.70 is what led to the call to me from the ho via home inspector. They thought it was that simple. When I did the walk threw I found many others including the ocp being not readily accessible, however changing it to a sub panel could be perfectly acceptable. If I fixed the other code issues. I only do work AS IF MY FAMILY WAS LIVING THERE. But that is an (I think ) an approved manner. Wait for pics. this could be a major thread. The worst I have seen ever. The house was built by an electrician. I haven't even got into the 5 switches that control one light. He was in a wheelchair at the end.

I appreciate all the positive thoughts since sometimes we work in a box and can't fight out of it. There are tons of solutions maybe I should send to to the trade schools around here.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> Except for the fact that the panel is in the attic, with very little headroom, and only a little scuttle hole to get up to it. No way in this lifetime I'd refeed that panel mounted in that location.



I agree. It's not something I would do either, but rather, something that could be done, and 'maybe' meet code. This seems like a job that could quickly turn into a no-profit type job in a hurry.

Another option would be to reroute those conductors to an outside/ weatherproof panel. Maybe use some ridgid-nonmetallic conduit from the attic space to the top of the panel. Don't forget to derate those conductors.


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## SmithBuilt (Jan 25, 2007)

They could just live with it the way it is, exception being the #6 egc. In my state the inspectors will not make you change something unless it is life threatening.

From what I've seen on this forum I presume in some states if the inspector finds violations he will require repairs. Is that true?


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Around here, if we modify any electric the panel must be brought up to code.


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## terrynistler (Dec 5, 2006)

Pretty much the same here. You have a little leeway but if you are bringing one section of it up to code then the inspector will want all of it up to code. The catch is if you fix one thing you are more or less saying the rest is OK. That old last guy on the job owns it rule.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Terry, so if your electrical bureau insists on doing everything, why would you even consider doing less? It was the owners screw up, let them pay. No sense taking that big risk.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

terrynistler said:


> The catch is if you fix one thing you are more or less saying the rest is OK. That old last guy on the job owns it rule.


Have you ever gotten these form letters from homeowner's insurance companies to sign, stating that all the wiring in the home is in safe condition? I get them all the time. Sometimes I sign them, sometimes I don't. Depends on the house, how much I find wrong, and how much of it they'll let me fix.


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## Capt2 (Jul 29, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> Home inspectors are a bunch of well meaning guys, who generally red flag the wost items. Not noticing a #6 service entrance conductors in the riser terminated on a 200 amp breaker seems like a screw-up. Everyone's entitled to those every once in a while. Home inspectors carry insurance for that.


Interesting mention of the inspector's insurance. I just bought a house in Michigan. After purchase, aside from several electrical issues, the dumbo inspector is off the hook for failing to notice that 3 of the 4 bedrooms had no heat service or registers. 

My understanding is that most if not all inspectors have you sign a waiver that they are only liable for the cost of the inspection. Unfortunately in Mich. law this is upheld in court. Perhaps other states or inspectors work differently, but I figure even if he has insurance, he'll try not filing a claim to avoid a rate sky rocket.


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## mdcorreia (May 21, 2006)

Capt2 said:


> Interesting mention of the inspector's insurance. I just bought a house in Michigan. After purchase, aside from several electrical issues, the dumbo inspector is off the hook for failing to notice that 3 of the 4 bedrooms had no heat service or registers.
> 
> My understanding is that most if not all inspectors have you sign a waiver that they are only liable for the cost of the inspection. Unfortunately in Mich. law this is upheld in court. Perhaps other states or inspectors work differently, but I figure even if he has insurance, he'll try not filing a claim to avoid a rate sky rocket.




When I was doing repair work or whatever, I stated in the permit application what EXACTLY I was doing and NOTHING ELSE. Any doubts, let the owner show the invoice which states exactly the work done and charges according to the permit and the description of the work. 
Now mr inspector, if you have any questions or concerns about any wiring OTHER THAN WHAT I DID go and talk to the owner, over there, and don't talk to me. Then the inspector takes out a violation sheet, fills it out and hands it to the owner, NOT TO ME. The owner has usually 7 days to comply. End of story. Nothing to do with the electrician. The proof ,in court, would be on what did the electrician charge you for? and what is sated in the permit and description of work? 
I have seen messages here where electricians get upset because other wiring had been done wrong about 20 years ago or something. Now they are forced to repair it for free! Don't give in. Be firm. If you did not wire it, forget it. It is not your responsibility at all. It would be an EXTRA payable and signed a change order in advance.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

I must be missing something here. In my part of the country, you need a CO , before you can move in( or the house can be sold, to the new ower). To that end the township, county, whatever sends out there "inspector". These guys test all gfi outlets, firealarms..etc: looking for "code" violations. You can not sell the house until the violations are repaired. This falls on the seller to repair any and all violations.

From what I'm hearing , I don't see how this meets code. But I guess this depends on where you live. Since the people have moved in, I guess the Town Inspector passed the house for the CO. Meaning, the new oweners don't have to do a thing...it ALL supposedly meets code.

My guess is the Town inspector didn't bother to climb up and look at this mess. If this dose not meet code and is easy to prove so. The town inspector missed it. The new homeowner, "MAY" be able to go back to the seller and get the moneys to repair the problem.


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

Project53 said:


> I must be missing something here. In my part of the country, you need a CO , before you can move in( or the house can be sold, to the new ower). To that end the township, county, whatever sends out there "inspector". These guys test all gfi outlets, firealarms..etc: looking for "code" violations. You can not sell the house until the violations are repaired. This falls on the seller to repair any and all violations.
> 
> From what I'm hearing , I don't see how this meets code. But I guess this depends on where you live. Since the people have moved in, I guess the Town Inspector passed the house for the CO. Meaning, the new oweners don't have to do a thing...it ALL supposedly meets code.
> 
> My guess is the Town inspector didn't bother to climb up and look at this mess. If this dose not meet code and is easy to prove so. The town inspector missed it. The new homeowner, "MAY" be able to go back to the seller and get the moneys to repair the problem.


Where I live saying "the inspector passed it" is never in any way a defence against the work not being done properly. The state board views this as being similar to getting pulled over for speeding, and telling the cop that he cant give you a ticket cause you blew past the last cop and he didnt pull you over.

The laws are rigged to prevent the city, county, or state from ever being held liable for anything. This is probably becasue they make the laws.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Well I didn't say they could get anything from the town or county...thats not going to happen. Even trying to get something from the seller would be a waaay long shot.
What I don't understand is I "assume" they had the home inspection done...before they bought the house. Now either the "home inspector" which they paid for...did not really tell them this is a major problem.
(yeah, he covered his butt, by putting down it needs to be looked at by a qualified electrician)...but alot of home inspectors put down blanket statements like that for alot of stuff....and don't really tell the prospective buyer, that this is a major problem, that needs to be addressed "before" they buy the home.
I'm not saying that the home inspector, didn't do his job...maybe he did, and the HO ..just didn't get it or understand. O'well to bad. Now he's (home owner)in between the rock and hard place.
Now the home owener has to either leave it as is....or bite the bullit to redue all the wireing. Once you open this can of worms.....you have to do it right , or not at all. If they don't want to pay to have the job done right...walk away. Let the hack own it for the cheap price.


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

I think you are giving the qualification of "home inspector" a huge ammount of credit that it does not deserve. It takes a min of 4 years working in a trade for anyone to get even a journeymans licence which only allows that person to work in a building alone while the master pulls the permits and takes responsibility for the job.

A person can become a home inspector in a weekend by taking some dumb course and passing a stupid test.

Home inspectors are qualified to do nothing but tell a home owner that it needs to be looked at by a professional. They are professionals in no trade, and do not even have any training in engineering.

The problem is with the home selling industry leading unsuspecting home buyers and sellers into believeing that home inspectors will be able to tell them everything that is wrong. A few of the more experienced ones may be able to tell you more, but most will only find the obvious faults. What they have to offer is nothing more than an impartial write up of what the buyer and seller could find themselves.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Just a PS to this. I'm looking to get my own home inspection License, and yes pay for my own insurance. I don't intend to nit pick a house apart..I've seen guys do this. Write 5 pages on basic nothing. Some will almost never talk to the buyer...just send them a report..with blanket statments on it..like..needs to be looked at by plumber or something.
Just CYA statments.
In this case...as my client(buyer)...I would make sure they understand that they have a BIG problem with this house..and needs to be looked at "BEFORE" they buy the house..not after. (that's what there paying me for) If it takes me the time to drag them up there to look at the problem..so they understand the problem..so be it. I've done my job correctly.
If they still ignore what I've shown them...then the problem is there's.

Sending a report to a buyer saying...needs to be looked at, to CYA. To people who don't really understand this stuff, in the first place..is not really doing your job....at least IMO.


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

And how do you plan to word your reccomendation?

"In my completely uneducated and uninformed opinoin I beleive that...."

Or "Based on my half day training as a home inspector I believe that ...."

Home inspectors know nothing of each individual trade, and to profess to know more is as much of a crime as any other aspect of the business.

What needs to be done, is that home inspectors should be outlawed entirely. To sell a house, a HO should have to pay qualified professionals in each of several trades to do an inspection, or a qualified engineer.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Well yes JB....your right on some of this. They do have to take a course and pass a test. Some have never done anything in construction. Maybe thats part of the problem..I don't know.
Those are usually the guys that will nit pick a house...because thats what they were told in the course..not that there doing a bad job..but thats all they know.
As for me, this is supplemental income. I fully intend to let the people know I've been doing this (construction)for years. If they wish to pay for my services...great. This is not a BIG money making buisness....but can be rewarding..and done right, can help people out.
The problem is..you have to be a jack of all trades and master of none.
Or what you should be anyway. Problem is no Master electrican would do this job...he'd lose money..as a fulltime job. But the problem is..he would not know about plumbing or all the other stuff.
So you end up with people who take the course....what the State thinks is what they need to inspect.
Or people like me, that have been a PM for years...knows most of the codes...knows what to look for, can spot bad stuff as soon as I walk in the house, type thing.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Ok JB..you have a problem with home inspectors. Or you seem to have a problem with what I am saying here.

Well lets see what gives you the right.....
I've been doing"electrical" work since 1974...probably before you were born.....I've worked from Major Computer companys repairing there stuff....from mainframes to printers. For 10 years...I can read logic diagrams, and all electricial schemeticits...can you?
I then went into design and project management.....for 20 years I have designed and built ..for the biggest companies in the world, there data centers and corperate complexes. For electrical and data needs.....and have run all the the electricians and everyone else on the job ..have you? I can read and understand ALL the dam prints on a job...can you?
You have a problem with home inspectors....why?....because you don't do your job right?


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

Project53 said:


> ...I can read electricial schemeticits...can you?...


Nope.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Well sorry for not spelling everything right, as i was pissed off......But that must mean you can trace logic gates and such...and you must be able to read all schematic's...and for sure you must know how to use an oscilloscope, right.......
Plus you must be the Project Manager on site, who deals with all construction issues....RIGHT
Gee sorry, I thought you were the person that deals with 50 mil, constrution jobs.


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

Yeah, It kind of looks like you were a little ticked off.

Sorry, my runaway sense of humor got the best of me. Sometimes I just get hysteresis. I'll try to be more serious in the future...



Project53 said:


> ...you must be the Project Manager on site, who deals with all construction issues...


Actually, I just pace back and forth in a brand new hard hat, talking to my girlfriend on my cell phone, with a rolled-up set of plans tucked under my arm while everybody else does all of the work, but I do buy the coffee.



Project53 said:


> ...I thought you were the person that deals with 50 mil, constrution jobs...


Give me a start date. For the right price, I'm willing to travel, AND I'll buy the coffee. :thumbsup: 



Project53 said:


> ...you must know how to use an oscilloscope...


Nope. Just a telescope, but I do watch for ocelots.

Best regards,
Michael


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

*God save us from Home Inspectors*

Here ya go
perfect example
JUST TODAY I spent the whole day investigating a property in Philadelphia. The new owner bought a three-unit apartment with separate services for each tenant unit.
The inspector suggested in his report that knob and tube wiring represented possible hazards and should be replaced. He did NOT specify where the Knob & Tube wiring existed.
The purchaser received a $500.00 credit from the seller, who stayed on as a tenant, at closing. 
I agreed to go look and tell the guy what it would cost to eliminate the Knob and Tube, for a fee.
I figured it might take a half day at a push.
Results:
There is no house meter - common area electricity is derived from the first floor apartment. - not mentioned
Fire alarm does not meet certification standards. - not mentioned
All but one receptacle on the third floor is an installed grounding-type receptacle. There is no ground. - not mentioned
All receptacles on second floor are grounding type. Three have a ground. - not mentioned
Both the second and third floor apartments have drop ceilings with new lighting - flying splices to open boxes a foot above the ceiling. - not mentioned
Ceiling fan attached to 1x3 laying on ceiling grid - not mentioned
Lampcord connected surface mount receptacle- not mentioned
Unsecured exterior conduit run from basement to third floor - not mentioned
Grounded receptacles at first floor apartment with no ground - not mentioned
Lighting circuit composed of 14-gauge wire fed with a 30-amp breaker - not mentioned
Cable entering box through knockout without connector - not mentioned
Open KOs at panel - not mentioned
Ungrounded enclosures - not mentioned
Non-functioning receptacle [open neutral] - not mentioned
Ceiling fan at apartment [no, the OTHER apartment] mounted to lathe with sheetrock screws. - not mentioned
Defective switch at kitchen in first floor - not mentioned
Two clothes closet lights are porcelain pull-chain fixtures - not mentioned

What did the guy inspect?

and, oh yeah .... there was NO Knob and Tube ANYWHERE!


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Project53 said:


> Ok JB..you have a problem with home inspectors. Or you seem to have a problem with what I am saying here.
> 
> Well lets see what gives you the right.....
> I've been doing"electrical" work since 1974...probably before you were born.....I've worked from Major Computer companys repairing there stuff....from mainframes to printers. For 10 years...I can read logic diagrams, and all electricial schemeticits...can you?
> ...



Interesting how electrical is in quotes. hmmmmm. This is a forum for electricians, not "electricians" There is a difference in being a electronics repair person and an electrician. There is also a difference in being a "Project manager" and a project manager. I bet most of us are project managers as well. We manage projects of all sorts and types.

What are you trying to say anyway?


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

Project53 said:


> You have a problem with home inspectors....why?....because you don't do your job right?


I have been trying to buy a house lately. I stood next to a HI who wrote up the kitchen for NO GFI when GfI were not required in the kitchen when the house was built. (yes I know some grandfather clauses end when the home is sold) and then watched him walk by a bell wire.. ( i am not bs ing) that was switching a 120 v light.

He wrote up the crawl space as "needs looked at" and I hired a foundation guy to do an extimate. The house sits on blocks with no basement. The hose needed to be raised, and the entire under side replaced.

The guy I use is one of the good ones. He knows what his limitatioins are, and writes up... Needs looked at by a professional. 

I am lucky. Most HI s think they actually know what is happening. That is why they need to be outlawed. the fool HOs and buyers into thinking they know about construction, when the assesor probably knows more.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

Isnt it grandfathered in since its there? I would think the location of the box would be OK since its been there and isnt new work. The wire size I could see needing to be fixed.


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

Now, now, kids.
Don't get all mean and nasty.
Let's play nice and share.
I am sure nobody meant to hurt anybody's feelings.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

RobertWilber said:


> Here ya go
> perfect example
> JUST TODAY I spent the whole day investigating a property in Philadelphia. The new owner bought a three-unit apartment with separate services for each tenant unit.
> The inspector suggested in his report that knob and tube wiring represented possible hazards and should be replaced. He did NOT specify where the Knob & Tube wiring existed.
> ...


Maybe he was talking about door *knob*s *and* fluorescent *tube*s.

Do the home inspectors out there have to be licensed? If they do this guy should lose his, if he has one. He's one of those guys the real-estate folks like cause he misses everything (whether intentionally or not) and the sale goes through, there's quite a few like that out here.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

It sounds to me like he looked at the wrong building or got his papers mixed up.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Magnettica said:


> NEC articles 110.26 and 230.70 (A)(1) come to mind first.
> 
> #6 for 200AMP? :laughing:
> 
> Maybe you could install an outside disconnect, upgrade the feeders, isolate your equipment grounds and neutrals, and make the main panel into a sub panel.


table 310.16 comes to mind first to me (as I'm sure it does for most others)

Woops, didn't look up the refferences(and still haven't), but I ass-umed you meant them to be about the wire size, sorry


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## terrynistler (Dec 5, 2006)

*Wow that one got out of control*

I did win the bid on this job and will post pictures of original and new. You guys will love it. But even better I happened upon some new construction town homes a block away from me and will have those pictures posted as well. From Dallas this Master Electrician wired these all electric 1100 sq townhomes with 125 amp panels and #4 copper service feeds from the outside 200 amp disconnect and managed to get a green tag. I am talking all electric house!!!! I know most inspectors know there job and are protecting the communities but give me a break. I went and brought it up to the inspector (new) here and he said nahh it's OK..... Think of all the money I could have saved and the deaths I could have caused if I wired this way PICS to follow.


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