# Poured concrete shower pan



## bob_cntrctr (Jan 30, 2008)

Gentlemen,

I was forming concrete stairs the other day and my thoughts wandered to the bathroom reno coming up soon - and I thought about mortar-beds and 2x4 curbs and lathe and and and - - and I thought - why not just form and pour a concrete shower pan? The curb is formed and poured - done. With the right consistency of mix you can trowel the slope.

Is there a good reason not to do this?

Thanks.


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

bob_cntrctr said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I was forming concrete stairs the other day and my thoughts wandered to the bathroom reno coming up soon - and I thought about mortar-beds and 2x4 curbs and lathe and and and - - and I thought - why not just form and pour a concrete shower pan? The curb is formed and poured - done. With the right consistency of mix you can trowel the slope.
> 
> ...


Meny reasons why not to do it that way imo.

The proper way would be using deck mud, mixed correctly needs to be damp and then packed down well.

Curb and pre-slop.
Yes you can use lath you still need plastic or roofing paper under it but that won't be your waterproof point. 

Once your curb and slop is done and dryed then you put your waterproof liner down.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

I agree with floor. The rocks get in the way. While your way would work for a surface membrane or quality liquid, I think it's harder to get it right. It's much easier, imo, to add a little, scrape a little, without the rocks.


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## duburban (Apr 10, 2008)

olzo55 said:


> I agree with floor. The rocks get in the way. While your way would work for a surface membrane or quality liquid, I think it's harder to get it right. It's much easier, imo, to add a little, scrape a little, without the rocks.


guys that do this on a regular basis think of the shower base as one big tile. do your pre slope etc... precast your wicked fancy shower base and install it like a tile. concrete is not really water proof at the micro level so you can't leave it as your only defense against water. 

it aint easy!


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## bob_cntrctr (Jan 30, 2008)

floornerd said:


> Meny reasons why not to do it that way imo.
> 
> The proper way would be using deck mud, mixed correctly needs to be damp and then packed down well.
> 
> ...


Agreed - but imagine that my waterproof liner is going to be Kerdi. That will require a skim coat of mortar anyway, which in this case also serves to smooth out the rocks. And there are different qualities of concrete - I'd use one with smaller/fewer rocks, like for a basement floor.

I'm thinking that a smooth concrete, then Kerdi mortared over that, is going to be about as bullet proof a shower pan as you can get.

No?


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Most people don't pour pans because it's too hard to get the chute down the hall and through the doors or into the window.


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

bob_cntrctr said:


> Agreed - but imagine that my waterproof liner is going to be Kerdi. That will require a skim coat of mortar anyway, which in this case also serves to smooth out the rocks. And there are different qualities of concrete - I'd use one with smaller/fewer rocks, like for a basement floor.
> 
> I'm thinking that a smooth concrete, then Kerdi mortared over that, is going to be about as bullet proof a shower pan as you can get.
> 
> No?


You were stating pouring concrete for your slop? How will you be able to pitch it correctly and for it to stay? There is no control when you have it at that consistency. 

I have only done a few beds and used sand and topping mix. Or make your own Portland cement sand and water.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

CO762 said:


> Most people don't pour pans because it's too hard to get the chute down the hall and through the doors or into the window.


:laughing:

...bags man,

bags.


To the OP:

How are you going to slope the pan toward the drain if you pour it?

Are you going to hand trowel the slope?


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

tenon0774 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> ...bags man,
> 
> ...


If that's the case then popcorn and 3d movie glasses for a true entertainment experience. Lol


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## [email protected] (Aug 9, 2011)

I have always been told that the cure time for concrete is 28 days. I did a sunken shower on a new slab and had to wait the entire 28 days before I could lay tile so all manufacturers warrenties would still be valid.

I don't see a need to reinvent the wheel with shower pans. A properly installed mudbed is pretty bullet proof but If you are serious about the idea build a test pan in the shop and try it there first. You may find that its more trouble than its worth.


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

bob_cntrctr said:


> Agreed - but imagine that my waterproof liner is going to be Kerdi. That will require a skim coat of mortar anyway, which in this case also serves to smooth out the rocks. And there are different qualities of concrete - I'd use one with smaller/fewer rocks, like for a basement floor.
> 
> I'm thinking that a smooth concrete, then Kerdi mortared over that, is going to be about as bullet proof a shower pan as you can get.
> 
> No?


Deck Mud for a shower receptor should conform to ANSI A-4.1a.2.3.1 which says:A-4.1a.2.3.1 Mortar bed mix: 1-part portland cementand 4-parts damp sand, by volume.ANSI A-4.1.a.2.2.1 is for floors other than showers.

http://www.johnbridge.com/how-to/deck-mud/

I can tell you. You willn not get the 5-1 ratio if its in a "able to be pored" state 

Even if you pulled it off is drys in a different way and may get fault cracks.

If you use kerdi then that will go over the preslope and formed state.... making that state high enough to from perimeter to drain. 
If you use a ruber membrane then the hole job becomes 2 stages as apose to a kerdi stage.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I mixed mine, and troweled it in place. Acid stained for color. Now...that said, there is no pan, and my house, my choice to take the risk. Slab on grade, any potential leak isn't a factor. 

If I were doing it again, I would have made a full knockout in the floor, and then poured the pan level or a slight drop below the finished floor, for a zero entry shower.


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I have always been told that the cure time for concrete is 28 days. I did a sunken shower on a new slab and had to wait the entire 28 days before I could lay tile so all manufacturers warrenties would still be valid.
> 
> I don't see a need to reinvent the wheel with shower pans. A properly installed mudbed is pretty bullet proof but If you are serious about the idea build a test pan in the shop and try it there first. You may find that its more trouble than its worth.


I think the 28 days has been a misleading info statement that has spread over the internet and could be still questioned to this day.


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## bob_cntrctr (Jan 30, 2008)

Very interesting replies, thanks.

I think this warrants a test run.


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## [email protected] (Aug 9, 2011)

floornerd said:


> I think the 28 days has been a misleading info statement that has spread over the internet and could be still questioned to this day.


There is a lot of misleading info on the net. I do what the concrete installer and product reps recommend. This has been recommended to me before on new concrete installs. I can't see where it would hurt other than possible schedule conflicts which is not usually a problem for me.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

If you can trowel the proper pitch I really don't see why it would be a bad idea...make for a nice strong base.


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't know if the OP mentioned if the pan was being built on wood subfloor or slab .On slab I don't see a problem as long as you use some weld crete or some type of binder to get a good bond .If it's on a wooden subfloor then IMO concrete is not intended to be used in that way . I would think it would crack easily even with wire . Deck mud is a time tested method .


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

floornerd said:


> ANSI A-4.1a.2.3.1 which says:A-4.1a.2.3.1 Mortar bed mix: 1-part portland cementand 4-parts damp sand, by volume.ANSI A-4.1.a.2.2.1 is for floors other than showers.


Holy fecal matter! :blink: I just mix some cement and sand anywhere from 3-5 to one depending on a lot of things. That's a whole lotta (paid) science there. It's great for selling things I guess. 
Where do you get such nonsense?

"johnbridge" :laughing: OK. Did they also suggest one of their vendors too? kerdi/ditra?  You do realize that no one bothers with all that gobbledygook except standards engineers (for their job) and manufacturers and their sales boards, and in person reps?

Know what the paid for standard is for mixing the magical mud?
How much water? I'd guess most manufacturer's bagged mud has some directions as to how much water. It's gotta have some measure doesn't it? 

Sand isn't sand, so what type of sand? And sieve? 

Anyone have any manufacturer's and their scientists/internet board numbers for the tile/mortar beds still in existence and working fine...that were made a thousand years ago?


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

CO762 said:


> Holy fecal matter! :blink: I just mix some cement and sand anywhere from 3-5 to one depending on a lot of things. That's a whole lotta (paid) science there. It's great for selling things I guess.
> Where do you get such nonsense?
> 
> "johnbridge" :laughing: OK. Did they also suggest one of their vendors too? kerdi/ditra?  You do realize that no one bothers with all that gobbledygook except standards engineers (for their job) and manufacturers and their sales boards, and in person reps?
> ...


I'm glad you liked that lol.... all those numbers and letters put together that like some one who will create a time machine and traval to a different demention in time and space instead of back in time lol

I'm glade this forum isn't as intense as john bridge there crazy over there?!?!...


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

I'm sure if you truly fallow those number of mixing..... I'm pretty sure you will end up with your wetbet install on the ceiling.... roflmao


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

floornerd said:


> I think the 28 days has been a misleading info statement that has spread over the internet and could be still questioned to this day.



Concrete and mud mix have very different water ratios.
I can see waiting that long for a concrete slab of some thickness 4-6". A mud bed is a lot thinner and drier. I wait overnight and tile the next day. You can wait as long as you want. That works for me.


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

olzo55 said:


> Concrete and mud mix have very different water ratios.
> I can see waiting that long for a concrete slab of some thickness 4-6". A mud bed is a lot thinner and drier. I wait overnight and tile the next day. You can wait as long as you want. That works for me.


That's true. I think it is the per sqr foot to depth to get a determined set time really. Imo


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

when mixing mud I count how many spongefulls of water I use to get the consistancy I want. Usually it's 5-6 squeezes of a full sponge per bag (I think it's the Sacrete 50lb sand mix) plus a shovel of coarse play sand. I don't wring out the sponge. Just squeeze it. By counting, you develop a method that will works nearly every time. And you won't have to watch a helper.


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## [email protected] (Aug 9, 2011)

olzo55 said:


> Concrete and mud mix have very different water ratios.
> I can see waiting that long for a concrete slab of some thickness 4-6". A mud bed is a lot thinner and drier. I wait overnight and tile the next day. You can wait as long as you want. That works for me.


I operate the same way. I was replying to the op mixing actual concrete and doing a wet pour as his question was worded. The sunken shower I mentioned was actually installed in a new slab and had to wait the month. Usually I can do the mud bed one day and lay tile next day if I choose.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

floornerd said:


> I'm glade this forum isn't as intense as john bridge there crazy over there?!?!...


Ummmm....notice the lack of paid advertising on this site? 
IMO, this board is just like a jobsite, with normal people. Some other sites are sort of like trade shows where vendors/manufacturers sign up, pay big money, and well, whatever and whatnot.

People have been putting down tile and stone (in tile format) for at least six centuries. Ansi engineeers weren't around as they were all dropping their feces in ditches or ceramic buckets, yet they still put up things that are still in existence.

That'd be very old school....before schools.......


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## [email protected] (Aug 9, 2011)

I don't measure sponge fulls. I just have the "consistency" that I like. I show the helper what I want and if its too wet he carries the heavy ass bucket back outside and thickens it up. It doesn't take too many returned buckets before they get it right. If its too dry I keep a spray bottle to dampen it a little.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> when mixing mud I count how many spongefulls of water I use to get the consistancy I want.


Finally! Now we're getting to some actual data on this board. 
I use a coffee can...OK, those don't stick around long, so I like to use a water pitcher, but I keep losing it when I need it, so the spacers get dumped and that container gets used. OK, why have spacers when you're doing mudwork...plus, that's probably left at the last job anyway.

Didja see the breakfast thread in the GD? OK, I'll admit, that's what I use most of the time--thrown away drink cups. :drink:


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

CO762 said:


> Ummmm....notice the lack of paid advertising on this site?
> IMO, this board is just like a jobsite, with normal people. Some other sites are sort of like trade shows where vendors/manufacturers sign up, pay big money, and well, whatever and whatnot.
> 
> People have been putting down tile and stone (in tile format) for at least six centuries. Ansi engineeers weren't around as they were all dropping their feces in ditches or ceramic buckets, yet they still put up things that are still in existence.
> ...


Well I'm certainly not advertising but also never thought of it that way . Imo tiling is truly a trade learned on site and what works in the real world. There are to many users on those forums that preach standers from a books and manufacture recomdations. If that was the case I would read kung fo and be next bruce lee right? Lol its silliness really.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> I just have the "consistency" that I like. I show the helper what I want... If its too dry I keep a spray bottle to dampen it a little.


Hey, is there any asni scientific data to show your method? :laughing::clap:

Some people even have been known to sandra fluke with others by adding another can of water to the mix they're getting.....


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## [email protected] (Aug 9, 2011)

Scientific data?!?!?!?!? We don't need no stinkin scientific data!


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

floornerd said:


> Imo tiling is truly a trade learned on site and what works in the real world. There are to many users on those forums that preach standers from a books and manufacture recomdations.


Hang out here and if you are in that trade and and can read between the lines, it's fun. Probably the same for all the trades here, but the carpenters section kicked me out.  OK, roofing and painting too......


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Scientific data?!?!?!?!? We don't need no stinkin scientific data!


We doan need no stinkin tape measure!


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

I've cut out basement floor areas and done a pre-slope and slope with concrete. I've also left out the floor in a shower area during the basement pour, then come back and stripped the forms and set the plumbing and done a pre-slope and slope with concrete.

These were all curbless. I guess the reason I used concrete was because I wanted a substantial base underneath. I could of used the portland/sand mix on top.

Not a big deal to trowel the concrete to the slope desired, but yes, I do think it is more difficult than the portland/sand mix.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

CO762 said:


> Hang out here and if you are in that trade and and can read between the lines, it's fun. Probably the same for all the trades here, but the carpenters section kicked me out.  OK, roofing and painting too......


So why are we so lucky? There still are few more trades to go. lol.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> So why are we so lucky?


yous peoples need to hang out with a higher class of peoples. 
Slapping down tile is the only trade I can't do.........


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

cleveman said:


> Not a big deal to trowel the concrete to the slope desired, but yes, I do think it is more difficult than the portland/sand mix.


Not much is a big deal if one has the touch (and foresight/knowledge) to do it as a lot of times, stuff is stuff. Isn't that where the whole idea of wet setting came from anyway?


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## Hank B. (May 6, 2013)

Why all the JB forum hate? With regaurds to tile there's much more valuable info there than here. No offense guys, but if you went to the pros hang out and asked the questions that the pros here ask your thread would get moved to the diy board. Maybe ya'll are gonna start shunning me for this but there are far more "do it all guys here", so I can understand the lack of commitment to the actual science of one specialty. What happened? A few of you go over there and get offended because you made claims you couldn't support? Then go all whipple and start saying people who are always ansi this and ansi that are stupid? Whatever. The info is out there for you to learn and cover your ass. Tested methods are nothing more than a way for you to find a way to do your job using the best possible method based on data you can refer to if theres a problem. They really can help you more than hinder you.

Mud is just concrete without rocks, extra portland, and water. The excessive ratio of portland and water in concrete cause it to shrink, warp, crack etc. Mud is ideal because its practically dry when you use it, theres no shrinkage, and its much easier to shape and screed then concrete. A good mud mix can acutally exceed the compressive strength of concrete because of the absence of extra water that isn't needed other than to help you work with it. 

Almost every house here is built on a slab. Lot of homes the shower is left out. LOTS of shower pans 50 yrs old, that are just mud over dirt, with no reinforcing, no waterproofing, and still pretty damn strong considering they're the lid/filter to a cespool. The only reason people want it torn out is to change the ugly old tile. Why bother with concrete, I can promise you its harder to work with than mud.


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

I'm on JB as different name of course. I rarly post unless its about subflooring. I know a lot about tile. I sure don't know everything though but to me... you have to post in what the standards are. Now I only take that standards in floor structure which is still a grey erea online imo. Your tile is only as good as what you put the tile on. I've done it all void warrenties on membranes. Tiled of plywood ect. All for good reasons though. Jb isn't for every tiler.
Your right about mud over concrete. I'm new on here and nerded it up and overshot why I prefer mud. These guys seam more down to earth here.


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## Hank B. (May 6, 2013)

co762, how do you know there were no standards then back then? If you knew for certain there were no standards then could the point be made that if there were more of these ancient projects would have lasted?


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## Hank B. (May 6, 2013)

Floornerd, laid back is great. They're laid back over there too but they keep the advice to diyers to a tried and true industry standard or manufacturers recommendations. If the advice on this site were held to the same platform the advertisers would come, and I can safely bet it's owner/ owners would take their money. As for hybrids, new methods and unproven non standard practice nobody does it like they do. You just can't recommend cutting a large block of foam into a wall with multiple niches, then tiling it to a diyer but the pros are dying to support your efforts.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Hank B. said:


> They're laid back over there too but they keep the advice to diyers to a tried and true industry standard or manufacturers recommendations.


:laughing: 



> As for hybrids, new methods and unproven non standard practice nobody does it like they do.


:laughing: you must have joined after they became established enough to let non orange manufacturers in.


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## Hank B. (May 6, 2013)

Hmm, I must have. Many threads over there praising/ recommending products made by non sponsors. Nobody seems to mind. Cleary you had a bad experience there but if you don't elaborate your argument is kind of pointless. 

On topic, I believe making a shower pan with concrete is a wasted effort. It would be like walking to the grocery 5 mi away, to avoid walking to your car 20 steps away and driving. Besides, if you planned on using kerdi, how would you set the drain?


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

There are alot of retailers on JB. I don't have time to read through the posts because they fill up way to quick. Who has that much time on there hands? Its overkill imo. Lost in the sauce as you will say.


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

I can't count how may times I've been in hot water. or tag teams against me in forums. I don't mind it. I'm willing to have civilized conversations about tiling or flooring. Some people get carried away as there is always some one who always knows more.


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## RSims (Apr 7, 2010)

Floornerd
(Anyone have any manufacturer's and their scientists/internet board numbers for the tile/mortar beds still in existence and working fine...that were made a thousand years ago?)

Floornerd
I have the waterproofing, water design. Straight from my Great Great GGGGGGGGGGGreaT Any way back in the day of Romans and Greeks they did it this way.
Big vat full of water,
Add one fresh egg in shell,
Add salt till eggs floats,
Add hams and cure in salt water,
When hams are cured water is ready to use for mixing waterproof cement.


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

RSims said:


> Floornerd
> (Anyone have any manufacturer's and their scientists/internet board numbers for the tile/mortar beds still in existence and working fine...that were made a thousand years ago?)
> 
> Floornerd
> ...


Umm.... I don't even know how to respond to this?!? Lol 

This is from romen tunnels and building meathod. Which I have no clue about. 

What I can say about this is. If you are on job site and perform this batch of recipes and you are not alone expect who ever is around to look at you like you have grown a 3rd eye.

I grant you if Halen Keller was there she look at you like your crazy.... lol


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## floornerd (May 14, 2013)

floornerd said:


> Umm.... I don't even know how to respond to this?!? Lol
> 
> This is from romen tunnels and building meathod. Which I have no clue about.
> 
> ...


Oh and cement is not waterproof no matter how its made. Its just like your driveway it will hold water.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

RSims said:


> Big vat full of water,
> Add one fresh egg in shell,
> Add salt till eggs floats,
> Add hams and cure in salt water,
> When hams are cured water is ready to use for mixing waterproof cement.


Hey! Don't give away my trade secrets.  But I never told ya about the onionskins....


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Save the ham for when you read this::laughing:

The History of Cement....

www.nabataea.net/cement.html


It's amazing what people discovered thru the ages.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Hank B. said:


> Why all the JB forum hate? With regaurds to tile there's much more valuable info there than here. No offense guys, but if you went to the pros hang out and asked the questions that the pros here ask your thread would get moved to the diy board. Maybe ya'll are gonna start shunning me for this but there are far more "do it all guys here", so I can understand the lack of commitment to the actual science of one specialty. What happened? A few of you go over there and get offended because you made claims you couldn't support? Then go all whipple and start saying people who are always ansi this and ansi that are stupid? Whatever. The info is out there for you to learn and cover your ass. Tested methods are nothing more than a way for you to find a way to do your job using the best possible method based on data you can refer to if theres a problem. They really can help you more than hinder you.
> 
> Mud is just concrete without rocks, extra portland, and water. The excessive ratio of portland and water in concrete cause it to shrink, warp, crack etc. Mud is ideal because its practically dry when you use it, theres no shrinkage, and its much easier to shape and screed then concrete. A good mud mix can acutally exceed the compressive strength of concrete because of the absence of extra water that isn't needed other than to help you work with it.



:thumbsup:


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Save the ham for when you read this::laughing:


Oh obama! There goes another secret. If anyone mentions garbanzos, then all bets are off! 

There are many inputs in everything any tradesmen (and women) do.

The biggest improvement has been in reducing production costs of products and lowering the costs of transporting them. OK, and also the advent of capitalism which lead to the average joe/jane going from being just a socialist serf to someone that not only mad currency, but enough that they could spend the actual currency in exchange for improving their huts. 



> It's amazing what people discovered thru the ages.


Truly! :thumbsup: One of my favorite comments is, when I note the discoveries of yester decades/century(ies)...."and think about it...they were sh*ttin in buckets/ditches at the time".

What amazes me the most however, is no one could carry water until kerdi was invented..... :laughing:


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Hank B. said:


> Why all the JB forum hate? With regaurds to tile there's much more valuable info there than here. No offense guys, but if you went to the pros hang out and asked the questions that the pros here ask your thread would get moved to the diy board.


I deleted my response, but seeing as someone else commented on it, I'll circle around.

Speaking for myself, I don't "hate" anyone or anything. I do have a lot of distrust of things though, but that's another subject.

I do agree that on this board's tile/flooring section there's a lot of simple, basic questions regarding tile. But that's because this isn't a tile board--nor one that...OK, no more on that line.

This is a contractor board and a lot of contractors dabble/do/have to go into other trades. Sometimes I ***** and whine about it, but no biggie as I do it in typical worksite ribbing. This isn't a DIY board though. Some other site is mainly focused on that $tuff. 

Sh*t, hit a wrong key there. Tornado happened, supper's on the stove and I gotta feed the dog. No time to fix anything.....later....


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