# How to deal with an insubordinate Sub



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Always, always, the guy with the gold rules. Period!


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

The original poster is a paper contractor, maybe not in all cases, but on this job, and subbed the entire job to another contractor. The contract isn't any sort of standard agreement, but is some abomination written with some general terms to cover anything, but leaving unclear whether the sub is a contractor or just the O.P.'s [rude word].

The OP will fire the sub, and look around for another [same rude word]. Eventually the property owner will fire the OP and hire a real contractor, who will finish the job at twice the cost of the original contract.


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

dfw said:


> It's ridiculous that this man is so unprofessional and rude to his GC.
> Thanks


The wording of this statement suggests that this is a home owner, micromanaging. Or maybe the wife, who's husband is trying out the "GC" hat.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

your the boss....doesnt matter if your right or wrong....its your business and your in charge of him....he does it your way or you fire him.......if your way is wrong and his is right you will find out in the long term.

i never argue with my gc's....they ask and i do....they never have to ask me twice

all i ask is to be paid within 30 days

if they are a-holes or difficult i just raise the price to cover their nonsense....

hopefully your not telling him how to do his job too much.....he's the pro...tell him what needs to get done and by when and let him do it....if he isnt listening hire someone else

i always look at the GC / Sub relationship as a partnership....but i know the GC is really in charge and give him the respect


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

huggytree said:


> your the boss....doesnt matter if your right or wrong....its your business and your in charge of him....he does it your way or you fire him.......if your way is wrong and his is right you will find out in the long term.
> 
> i never argue with my gc's....they ask and i do....they never have to ask me twice
> 
> ...


On the flip side, as a GC on some jobs, I always am asking for my subs professional opinion for which I give a ton of wieght to, they are the professionals in their field. I think of them as partners more then a hire.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

I used to sub the entire shell from an addition builder including drawing the plans. We had a great relationship, in fact became best friends. One day I get a call and find out he died and he was only 50 years old, I was 55.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

huggytree said:


> your the boss....doesnt matter if your right or wrong....its your business and your in charge of him....he does it your way or you fire him.........


I disagree. It's a sub's job to deliver the scope of work, according to the specs, for the contracted price, and within the contracted time. With all sorts of limits on that of course (code, conditions of the job, etc.), it's up to the sub to decide how to do it. If I want someone to do it my way only, I'll hire him as an employee, or I'll write it all the details into the specs. Why would a plumber do something the wrong way because the GC says to do it the wrong way?


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## dfw (Sep 21, 2014)

VinylHanger said:


> Why would you ever hire a sub for a large remodel when you don't have a good working relationship with them. That is pretty stupid.
> 
> If you are doing a large remodel, you must be somewhat established, so you should have a stable of subs to pull from. Why did you use this guy who you obviously don't know.
> 
> ...


We tried to use the guys that we normally use - on most of our projects - they were "too expensive" according to the client. I explained to the client that they wanted a $400K job for $200K and I could give it to them fast and for a reasonable price or slow and for a low price - they opted for the low price and that left us having to hire out subs we didn't already know although we checked references (which mean nothing) and background checks and checked his previous work but his personality got in the way. I did end up firing him.


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## dfw (Sep 21, 2014)

totes said:


> You hire a sub to work with you, not for you.


No, that's why they're called a SUB - they work FOR me AND with me.


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## dfw (Sep 21, 2014)

TNTSERVICES said:


> That was my first thought. No way this sounds like a legit gc. Sounds like a micro managing HO who watched one too many DIY shows and now thinks they can gc their own.


No, I am a GC and have been for years. We tried to use the guys that we normally use - on most of our projects - they were "too expensive" according to the client. I explained to the client that they wanted a $400K job for $200K and I could give it to them fast and for a reasonable price or slow and for a low price - they opted for the low price and that left us having to hire out subs we didn't already know although we checked references (which mean nothing) and background checks and checked his previous work but his personality got in the way. I did end up firing him.


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## dfw (Sep 21, 2014)

Jaws said:


> I dont have any advice for him or id offer it. Dont know enough about his situation, and his personality comes off as one that sees himself as above his subs in a way that is outside jobsite hierarchy.
> 
> I will say id fire anyone who was not completing their scope of work. I will also say if you are telling your sub what to do and how to do it everyday your using the wrong subs. The guys I sub remodel carpentry to when we are busy get an order to do things in in the scope I hand them at the beginning of the job, to keep the schedule for the other trades. Otherwise the subs should be competent in running their own work, the GC should be doing QC and checking best practices.


I agree with you. I tried the autonomy route and he would work for 2 or 3 hours a day and then leave. So things started not getting done. That's when I had to step in and micromanage him or try to, but he literally ignored everything I told him to do regardless. He just was an ass with an aversion to authority of any kind. Period. This was not our problem, it was his.


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## dfw (Sep 21, 2014)

ryanshull said:


> Am I reading that right? Did you hire one sub to do the whole job? Sub stands for sub-contractor, not substitute.


Nope he wasn't hired to do the whole job we have plumbers and electricians and hVAC people and drywallers and painters etc...he was just doing framing mostly


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## dfw (Sep 21, 2014)

Californiadecks said:


> He's saying the contractor is a sub because he doesn't want to reveal he's actually the GC. The guy posting is a HO. That's my take.


I am a homeowner but I am also a GC and this is for a client's home on the lake, has nothing to do with my own home. This is one of many projects, and most I'm able to use our usual guys on but they were priced out of this one.


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## dfw (Sep 21, 2014)

Californiadecks said:


> It doesn't make sense that a GC would sub the GC'ing out.


I never said I was subbing out the GC role. You misread.


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## dfw (Sep 21, 2014)

charimon said:


> The wording of this statement suggests that this is a home owner, micromanaging. Or maybe the wife, who's husband is trying out the "GC" hat.


LOL I'm not sure why you think I'm someone's wife but I only started micromanaging him once it was clear he was working 2 - 3 hours a day and getting behind schedule and the client wasn't seeing any progress.


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## dfw (Sep 21, 2014)

charimon said:


> The wording of this statement suggests that this is a home owner, micromanaging. Or maybe the wife, who's husband is trying out the "GC" hat.





huggytree said:


> your the boss....doesnt matter if your right or wrong....its your business and your in charge of him....he does it your way or you fire him.......if your way is wrong and his is right you will find out in the long term.
> 
> i never argue with my gc's....they ask and i do....they never have to ask me twice
> 
> ...



We pay our subs within 10 days max once they are done.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dfw said:


> No, I am a GC and have been for years. We tried to use the guys that we normally use - on most of our projects - they were "too expensive" according to the client. I explained to the client that they wanted a $400K job for $200K and I could give it to them fast and for a reasonable price* or slow and for a low price* - they opted for the low price and that left us having to hire out subs we didn't already know although we checked references (which mean nothing) and background checks and checked his previous work but his personality got in the way. I did end up firing him.


Ah, not a HO, just a low balling hack GC who hires hack subs. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbsup: :laughing:

You got exactly what you paid for. Quite your bitchin', it's time to take off the skirt and put your big boy pants on and get on with it.


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## Walraven (Jan 24, 2014)

dfw said:


> No, I am a GC and have been for years. We tried to use the guys that we normally use - on most of our projects - they were "too expensive" according to the client. I explained to the client that they wanted a *$400K job for $200K* and I could give it to them fast and for a reasonable price or *slow and for a low price* - they opted for the low price and that left us having to hire out subs we didn't already know although we checked references (which mean nothing) and background checks and checked his previous work but his personality got in the way. I did end up firing him.


No such thing on either counts IMHO


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

I am trying to figure out how you go SLOW and make $200K less for the same job and still end up making money?... 

DFW... how long did it take you to get someone to replace him?


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## dfw (Sep 21, 2014)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Ah, not a HO, just a low balling hack GC who hires hack subs. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbsup: :laughing:
> 
> You got exactly what you paid for. Quite your bitchin', it's time to take off the skirt and put your big boy pants on and get on with it.


Actually I'm far more than just a GC , you're the hack with the low brow education (if you have any at all) with an obvious problem with interpersonal relationships. Sadly, you probably make 50K a year and live in a hovel.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

GCTony said:


> Disagree! I totally understand that I couldn't be successful without my subs but they work for me not with me. The are not partners, sharing profits or liabilities. They are an entity being paid to provide goods and services. If they don't provide that, there are many others willing to take their place. I and our subs get the whole "team" thing but at the end of the day; I sign their checks.


Show me the W-2s for your subs, and I'll believe they work for you. Otherwise, they may do some work for you, but they don't work for you, any more than you work for your customers. Most GCs work for themselves, but do work for their customers.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

The question asked is; what can I do about the bad sub.

Bob, I have some concerns I would like to talk to you about. Can we go outside in private? When I took this job I signed a contract and made commitments with the customer for some very specific things and many things on this job are not being performed in accordance the contract, my standards, my expectations nor the customer's expectations.

I really want to work with you, have you finish this job and I would love to give you more work, but these are the problems I need to have corrected.

Tell Bob about all your problems. Ask Bob if he is willing to make the corrections.

When Bob agrees to make the corrections you make your position very clear and you say:

Bob, if you can make these corrections I would love to have you finish the job, but I need to let you know that I cannot jeopardize my company and cannot jeopardize my family if these corrections are not made. To protect myself, I will have to come to this job every day until I see that the job is going as planned and with the standards I expect. Don't be afraid to use the word 'I'. You want your sub to know that you are taking personal responsibility for his work and the entire job. 

You have to think about telling people what to do like when soldiers are in the heat of a battle. Your soldiers don't have the luxury of time to argue over mute points and they do or die...or you kill them yourself.

You can't be a woosie when telling people what you wan't because someone who steals money from your wallet, or steals your material from job sites is exactly the same as an employee who takes money out of your wallet when he causes you to lose money because he refuses to do what you want.

For every action there is a reaction and for a high percent of bad reactions people open themselves up and make themselves vulnerable to the bad reactions. For example: as a sub, I will argue with you about this job every day because you open yourself up to arguing by allowing me to argue with you. You can stop arguing with your sub by telling him, "Bob, I am not going to argue with you. This is what I want and this is what you have to do."

Every GC should have a backup list to replace subs. I run ads on Craigslist, offer only $10 to $15 per hour and my phone won't stop ringing. I get 20 to 40 calls per hour and many applicants have all their own tools, vehicles and many are very talented. After about 1 hour I have to remove the ad.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

pcplumber said:


> I run ads on Craigslist, offer only $10 to $15 per hour and my phone won't stop ringing. I get 20 to 40 calls per hour and many applicants have all their own tools, vehicles and many are very talented. After about 1 hour I have to remove the ad.


:laughing:

WOW. Where can I sign up to work for you for 10 bucks an hour and bring my own tools and truck!!!??

I can't wait!!!!


PCP, I'm sorry, but you're an idiot.



Delta


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

dfw said:


> Actually I'm far more than just a GC , you're the hack with the low brow education (if you have any at all) with an obvious problem with interpersonal relationships. Sadly, you probably make 50K a year and live in a hovel.


Yeah...You're "a lot more than a GC" alright. 

You're either a HO masquerading as a GC, or a paper contractor with no real skill, who is in the process of getting owned by a handy-hack who calls himself a framer, while you sit ringing your hands and not knowing what to do.

How do you diminish job costs by working slower, anyway??

The sooner this project spirals out of control for you, the sooner a legitimate Contractor can take your place.






Delta


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## GTX63 (Sep 9, 2011)

I suspect it was the HO that agreed to the sub doing the job "slower and cheaper", and now he wants it done faster and the sub is tired of the biching.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> :laughing:
> 
> WOW. Where can I sign up to work for you for 10 bucks an hour and bring my own tools and truck!!!??
> 
> ...


Thank you very much! I get called that every day.

I'm not placing ads on craigslist for rocket scientists. I place ads for general laborers for delivering flyers and digging sewers. Ten dollars is more than enough for delivering flyers and $15 is more than enough for digging.

Since my ads are in the General Labor section on craigslist I get bombarded with as many as 50 (or more) calls per hour and a high percent of the applicants have their own tools, vehicles and they are very experienced in virtually every phase of construction.

Is that my fault?

My rule-of-thumb is; only a fool pays their workers more than they have to because paying more than you have to does not make employees more happy nor does it make them more loyal because regardless of how high you pay your employees they only think they deserve every penny, anyway. So, if you pay an employee $20 who would have been happy with $10 then you are wasting $80 every day.

When an employee thinks he is not earning enough money he will come to you and tell you. I will seldom offer an employee more money just because I think he is worth more money and I have several reasons that I don't have time to get into, but if an employee is happy with $10 and is working well then why rock the boat because you can open up a whole can of worms and create a lot of chaos throughout the company i.e. every other worker will think you have buckets of money and they will want a raise at the same time. Therefore, be cheap and think hard before paying more than you have to.

I might be an idiot, but I don't give away money I don't have to.


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## Andrew6127 (Aug 14, 2012)

pcplumber said:


> Thank you very much! I get called that every day.
> 
> I'm not placing ads on craigslist for rocket scientists. I place ads for general laborers for delivering flyers and digging sewers. Ten dollars is more than enough for delivering flyers and $15 is more than enough for digging.
> 
> ...



Translates to, I really only pay 10 an hour in Los Angeles county because I hire illegals as day laborers and they all have raggedy step side chevys with shovels.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

SectorSecurity said:


> Great you all scared him off, couldn't just let him believe he was a GC could you? :laughing:


I think what scared him off was having to detail as a GC how he went from $400K to $200K and the only qualifier was "slower"... 

I'd still like to know how that's even remotely possible...

But being "more than a GC", I am confident he will let us in on the secret...


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## GTX63 (Sep 9, 2011)

I doubt you will hear from the OP again, but if you do, it will probably be light on job site details and heavy on sarcasm.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

GTX63 said:


> I doubt you will hear from the OP again, but if you do, it will probably be light on job site details and heavy on sarcasm.


You mean like he already did?


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

pcplumber said:


> Thank you very much! I get called that every day.


Like the saying goes: First time someone calls you a horse, you punch him in the mouth, second time someone calls you a horse, you call him an a$$h0le, third time someone calls you a horse, well, it's time to start shopping for a saddle. :laughing:


Yesterday was a whiskey night, so my prick was showing. 

But I still don't understand how some people operate, or how some people will work for the wages they do. But there's a lot I don't understand anymore. 





Delta


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

seven-delta-fortyone said:


> like the saying goes: First time someone calls you a horse, you punch him in the mouth, second time someone calls you a horse, you call him an a$$h0le, third time someone calls you a horse, well, it's time to start shopping for a saddle. :laughing:
> 
> 
> Yesterday was a whiskey night, so my prick was showing.
> ...


lmao!


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## GCTony (Oct 26, 2012)

hdavis said:


> Show me the W-2s for your subs, and I'll believe they work for you. Otherwise, they may do some work for you, but they don't work for you, any more than you work for your customers. Most GCs work for themselves, but do work for their customers.


Everyone has their own way of doing things and they decide what works best for them.

I'm not talking legally, I'm talking from a management style standpoint. I spend many of my younger years with the "go team" and "we're partners in this" approach, always trying to be a nice guy. It took me about 20 times getting burned (I'm a slow learner) before I changed my ways from being a democracy to a dictatorship. Again, I love my subs (some more than others) and ask for advise, and guidance but at the end of the day, I'm the one that has to make a decision and live with the consequences. It's what an Owner is paying me, the GENERAL contractor to do.

This is an interesting video about project management. It's kind of taken from how Toyota builds cars compared to the Henry Ford way of building cars.

The Power of SCRUM: http://youtu.be/eNe0UEsBalA


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

GCTony said:


> This is an interesting video about project management. It's kind of taken from how Toyota builds cars compared to the Henry Ford way of building cars.
> 
> The Power of SCRUM: http://youtu.be/eNe0UEsBalA


Couldn't stand to watch that vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8vT7G0WATM

Pretty much everything after the "whys" teeter-tottor is blah, blah, blah...

http://alaverdyan.com/readme/2011/12/back-to-basics-scrum-origin-and-lean-thinking/

The SCRUM method is valid. Unfortunately, everyone wants to talk volumes instead of laying out a simple fact line.

Same with the originator of the whole quality/lean process: W. Edwards Deming. Brilliant - just couldn't stand to listen/read the man.

Only took took a prof at MSU 5 minutes to get it thru my head.

- Continuing to ask "Why?"
- Feedback loops from specialized teams

In our business, "teams" mean everything from trades/subs to sales, accounting, etc.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

I think I just figured it out.

A 400k job for 200k by slowing down production:

It's half (f)assed.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

GCTony said:


> Everyone has their own way of doing things and they decide what works best for them.
> 
> I'm not talking legally, I'm talking from a management style standpoint. I spend many of my younger years with the "go team" and "we're partners in this" approach, always trying to be a nice guy.


Agreed, they aren't partners. I'm a nice guy, except when it comes to cost, quality, schedule and attitude. If I'm getting all those, I can be nicer than if I'm not - it isn't negotiable.

Presumably they are there to make money - so as long as you're making yours, they have a shot at making theirs.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

I never had to fire a sub, but i have had to put the pressure on a few. 
There are a few things that i am guessing this guy didnt do, and is a must, esp with new subs. First, any job that more than a quick 2 week thing got a schedule written out in project and a copy was given to each sub. As the schedule got updated, copies were emailed. at least every week you have to go over the schedule with the subs on the job, and a walk thru of the job for QC. If this was done this sub would have never had the chance to fall behind. If they were getting behind, you sit down with the sub and talk to them, calmly, like men. First thing i see too many GCs and PMs do is start blaming and yelling right away. Finding blame does nothing, get the job done first 
If the sub was still not getting it done, then you have that conversation and remind him that you are the boss. 
Its not easy if you not a confrontational person, but a good GC wont have to do that very many time in their career.


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## Hermes (Nov 2, 2014)

tedanderson said:


> ...
> 
> The second time I did that, it got the guy's attention and he was like, "Uhhh... wait. Hold up.. can't we work something out?"


Uhhh no. once I fire you, you stay fired. Granted I'd try and work with him for a bit to see if maybe I was the problem in the situation, but if it gets to the point where I want to fire someone I've learned from bitter experience that it's better to fire them and move on.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Actually I'm far more than just a GC , you're the hack with the low brow education (if you have any at all) with an obvious problem with interpersonal relationships. Sadly, you probably make 50K a year and live in a hovel???

So how you call a person who is FAR MORE THAN GC? President of USA?

Hack with low brow education? I have bachelor degree in computer science. I speak three languages (Polish first) and would never call any body names like you did. My father is commercial electrical contractor and has 1/4 of education of mine and is 4x more skilled than I am. He was working hard so I can get education that his parents couldn't afford. So I don't see what level of education got to do with it?

Sadly, you make 50k a year ? So what people who make 50k or less are second category citizens? 

Guy simply gave you his thought. You asked for it by coming to this forum and simply you couldn't handle the truth.
" you want to know the truth ? You cant handle the truth"

So you are not only poor decision maker you are also rude, weak and defensive but I i would still like to find out how you deliver 400k job for 200k? and make any money. Forget 50k a year


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

" king who needs to say he is the king in not really a king"
People respect you more for who you are and what you do less for what you say.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I go to my subs and ask them to work with me on a game plan. I'm not the expert in thier field I don't dictate to them the process or how long thier job will take. This is all done before I give the schedule to my client, this way we as a team own the schedule. If I'm having to boss my subs around I've got the wrong subs. Now they absolutely come to me for decisions about design or changes. I still work it out with them in the loop. 

My subs are onboard with the game plan before my client is. This way I'm not saying one thing and they are saying another. My subs communicate with my clients as well, I'm ok with that, because I know they are looking out for me no matter what.

I hand out money so freely to them they tell me no when I ask them if they want a draw. They say I want some left over for the end of the job. :laughing:


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## HARD STEEL (Dec 28, 2014)

dfw said:


> We hired a sub for a major remodel and addition for a client of ours. Essentially the house is down to the studs plus a new 800 sf addition.
> 
> The project has been going for a couple of months and the contractor has developed an extremely insubordinate attitude. He behaves like a 2 year old and doesn't do 1/2 the things I tell him to do.
> 
> ...


Hi I have idea that works for me when I run into things like this.
Your right mostly age.
Here it the trick most people take pride in what they do so pick a small item of the job then ask him when it will be completed. Where you agree or disagree except the answer.

Then on that date come back if the item is complete tell him that he did a great jog.
If the item is not complete ask way not it was his time line and you are disappointed.

Because you made a schedule using his date and when it will be finished again let him give you the date or time when it will be finished.

Then repeat 

You see a change in his attitude.


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

HARD STEEL said:


> Hi I have idea that works for me when I run into things like this.
> Your right mostly age.
> Here it the trick most people take pride in what they do so pick a small item of the job then ask him when it will be completed. Where you agree or disagree except the answer.
> 
> ...



No offense dude, but that's about as bad as the op... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

HARD STEEL said:


> Hi I have idea that works for me when I run into things like this.
> Your right mostly age.
> Here it the trick most people take pride in what they do so pick a small item of the job then ask him when it will be completed. Where you agree or disagree except the answer.
> 
> ...


That's how you start, maybe... end of the day if they don't step to your dance; size 11 introduction to the long stretch of asphalt out front.


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## dfw (Sep 21, 2014)

Good advice but I did exactly that several times and each time he failed to meet the deadline. He was just a bad sub. He's ripped off several people since and is in deep with the courts now.


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