# Employee wages



## TNTCONSTREMOD (Jun 27, 2015)

With all this talk about minimum wage increases makes me wonder how many of us will be saying goodbye to laborers that do not have the skills or knowledge to be worth $15/ hour... We have 1 laborer that I know Damn well is not worth the $10 we pay him let alone $15... Why does America of 2015 think that everything should just be handed to them? I am only 25 and have been taught that if I want something I need to work my butt of to get it... Now i work 7 days a week at least 10 hours a day... Do the government factions not realize that raising minimum wage will put thousands of small businesses like us out of business just by having to pay the additional work comp tax and wages? We figured that if we paid our laborer the extra $5/ hour it actually cost nearly $12/ hour extra due to comp tax and the hourly... Currently in our market we would not be able to raise our prices to accommodate the wage increase... We are one of the highest in the area and close enough business to keep going and make a tiny profit. We have lowered our prices by about 15% and close more business at a lower profit but the jobs we are closing still would not cover the increase... What do you guys have to say about ask the Obama freeloaders?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I would find a different laborer. At one point, I had a laborer making about $17 an hour. He eventually got out of the industry but I sure do wish I could find a replica of him.


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## kixnbux (Feb 12, 2015)

It'll make it where folks will have to be worth the money to hire or they won't be. No more bench warmers. It may actually increase the competitiveness of quality people. ( I disagree with everything Obama does though )


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

TNTCONSTREMOD said:


> With all this talk about minimum wage increases makes me wonder how many of us will be saying goodbye to laborers that do not have the skills or knowledge to be worth $15/ hour... We have 1 laborer that I know Damn well is not worth the $10 we pay him let alone $15...


So when you say skills or knowledge, do they not have the skills or knowledge because they're unwilling to put the effort in to learn. Or are you unwilling to test them out on different aspects of the industry?


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## TNTCONSTREMOD (Jun 27, 2015)

Our laborer is a high school kid that wants to learn the trade... He's not horrible but also one of the dull lights in the box... Basically he's good for framing walls and bring a gofer/clean up guy... We work his butt off and at the end of the day if he learns something I'm happy... Friday we taught him how to use the brake and honestly he is better than me already... I can't complain too bad but if he didn't have a list of things to do he stands around with his thumb up his arse


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

TNTCONSTREMOD said:


> Our laborer is a high school kid that wants to learn the trade... He's not horrible but also one of the dull lights in the box... Basically he's good for framing walls and bring a gofer/clean up guy... We work his butt off and at the end of the day if he learns something I'm happy... Friday we taught him how to use the brake and honestly he is better than me already... I can't complain too bad but if he didn't have a list of things to do he stands around with his thumb up his arse


So he's trainable, but needs to learn what needs doing?


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

I don't keep my low-wage earners for any extended period of time. If you work for me, you have a certain amount of time to get up to speed or else I just can't employ you. I have a guy right now that I am about to let go simply because he just wants to be the cleanup guy and the gopher. 

Paying someone $15/hr. in lieu of $8-$10 is just the cost of doing business. It's going to cost me a few extra dollars on the front end but it's well worth the investment to find the right guy for the job.


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## Mort (Jul 18, 2012)

The business owners among you could choose to pay their employees more right now, which would increase the quality of the help. You don't need the gub'ment to tell you to do it. If you choose to pay an employee $8-10/hr, you're not going to get the quality of work you'll get from a higher paid, more experienced person. 

What happens when min. wage goes up to $15/hr is that you'll have to pay guys $22/hr for anything resembling quality/reliability.


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## TNTCONSTREMOD (Jun 27, 2015)

More like he needs to be forced to learn... The way we are thinking about it right now is that he goes back to school in 4 weeks so we will be looking for another employee anyway. Right now we need him for that stupid gopher cleanup stuff and carrying decking and deck material to the backyard from the delivery spot at the street... We are looking for a more qualified person for the next guy but like I said work comp and everything else a $15/ hour guy cost more like 25 being in business less than a year our insurance cost are thru the roof... For a 3 man crew we pay 1800/ month in comp and another 1200/ month in liability then the vehicle insurance is another 400... Insurance alone is $3,400 a month... Then taxes and payroll... Right now we cannot afford the testing guys out phase to find the right person that can bring our productivity up


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

TNT:

I strongly suggest you take an economics class and drop out of political science.

The marketplace sets wages, especially in construction, and the marketplace doesn't care a bit about your (or my) opinion as to what someone is or isn't worth.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Govt doesn't care. They force you to pay more they get more in taxes. They have no long term visions. They don't realize the inflation this will cause. And if they do realize it they don't care.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Everyone always thinks the deck is being stacked against them. I don't worry about things the impact everyone in the industry. If labor costs more, than the work costs more. End of story. This will happen across all industries and customers will know why. You act as though your price as well as your competition will stay the same.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

There's something about an employee that moved up in wages because the employer saw something in him that warranted a raise, vs. The employer being forced. We were all employees at one time or another. How did you feel when your boss came up to you and said "we're giving you more money." "You are really picking this stuff up and you are turning out to be a good fit for the company". That was the words I got when I was a laborer. It made me even more of a company man.


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

Most labourers in my area start around 15/hr. It's definitely going to affect other industries though. 

Thinking back to when I started working for my current employer about 5 years ago I was just a labourer. After a year I got bumped up $3 and sent to school. That raise left me near well speechless.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Youngin' said:


> Most labourers in my area start around 15/hr. It's definitely going to affect other industries though.
> 
> Thinking back to when I started working for my current employer about 5 years ago I was just a labourer. After a year I got bumped up $3 and sent to school. That raise left me near well speechless.


Kick started a fire in you didn't it? That's what it's all about.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

I am not arguing that people deserve the a raise. The government forcing a raise just isn't going to hurt business. It is going to force prices to increase In all reality I will come out ahead if wages are forced to increase. 

I wont use my families exact numbers but here goes. 

-The average american household brings in $50,500
-A family who has done well easily brings in $125,000

If wages go up by 20%

-The average american household will bring in $60,600
-The family bringing in $125,000 will now bring in 150,000

Although the % gap between wages remains the same the $ gap grows. The inflation on non wage portions of the economy will take a long period of time to catch up. That means that my raise is proportionately larger than those at the bottom.

Being in business is about taking real life situations and turning them into a profitable business. Every situation comes with the opportunity for positive gain. This is no different.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Here in Anaheim the ticket collector's at Disneyland wanted to be paid a livable wage. Well once those folks are making as much as the young engineers how long before they aren't going to accept that? Do you see? All it does is create inflation. That's it, the eventual outcome will be everything just goes up in price. Now it's all back to the way it was just everthing is more expensive. You can't have it both ways. A free market with the government intervening is a recipe for disaster.


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

Those of us in the low wage areas ( the south ) will have a bigger shortage of labor......... I can see guys working retail indoors in the AC instead of out on a 110 degree roof or doing manual labor.


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## Mort (Jul 18, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> How did you feel when your boss came up to you and said "we're giving you more money." "You are really picking this stuff up and you are turning out to be a good fir for the company". That was the words I got when I was a laborer. It made me even more of a company man.



I get that quite a bit. Four raises in two years, compliments quite a bit, every once in a while he'll open his wallet and transfer a C-note into mine. 

I don't really care for running heavy equipment, but I'll keep working for this guy until he retires. As an employee, that motivates me more than anything.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> Here in Anaheim the ticket collector's at Disneyland wanted to be paid a livable wage. Well once those folks are making as much as the young engineers how long before they aren't going to accept that? Do you see? All it does is create inflation. That's it, the eventual outcome will be everything just goes up in price. Now it's all back to the way it was just everthing is more expensive. You can't have it both ways. A free market with the government intervening is a recipe for disaster.


Inflation raises everyone equally, except for people on fixed government subsidies like ssi. It makes the retired, mentally ill and disabled poorer. If you're running on the wheel you're ok, but it your on the dole raising the minimum wage crushes you.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Inflation also transfers wealth from lenders to borrowers.


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> Kick started a fire in you didn't it? That's what it's all about.


Damn right it did and it's been a steady increase ever since.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

FrankSmith said:


> I am not arguing that people deserve the a raise. The government forcing a raise just isn't going to hurt business. It is going to force prices to increase In all reality I will come out ahead if wages are forced to increase.
> 
> I wont use my families exact numbers but here goes.
> 
> ...


So you are assuming that if minimum wage goes up, all wages go up? I am not arguing with you, just curious as to how you figure that. I doubt a 20 dollar an hour carpenters wages will go up any 4 dollars because a ditch digger is getting 15, at least not for a while. 

I have no idea how it will play out. I do believe without a doubt that within 3 years it will be the same for a guy making 600 a week as it was when he was making 300 a week. I promise you McDonald's, Wal Mart, Ect.. will not loose profit off of this. They will transfer the costs from their wage increase and what little they absorb from their suppliers and vendors, after they beat them to death, replace them with cheaper suppliers and vendors if necessary, then they will pass on the other costs and probably a little extra profit onto their consumers. 

I am not of the group of people who think doubling a wage at McDonalds will double the burger, but it will increase greatly. So will clothes. So will groceries. When a Coke is 3 instead of 2, cigarettes 9 instead of 7, all across the board, that 15 an hour will no longer be worth anywhere near what it was.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Look at this calculator. When this happens it'll just get worse.

http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=300&year=1960


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Just don't see a correlation between min wage changes and the general populace. Looking at the labor dept history of when min wages got bumped up, I don't remember the grousing afterwards of it degrading our standard of living.

We had the oil embargo, stagflation, and then 18-21 percent mortgage rates around the time Reagan replaced Carter. Same time wages got bumped a lot: "The minimum went to $2.65 an hour in January 1978, $2.90 in January 1979, $3.10 in January 1980, and $3.35 in January 1981"

That's when I launched my business full time, and it was an amazing decade.

As long as the economy keeps improving at a minimal rate, wages at the fast food joints are going to go up as other industries (like ours) that have been limping along get better. 

Something like 5 percent of the US labor force is at min or lower wage scale.

As you all that are growing your businesses keep looking further and further for more labor, expect some of them to be somewhat pasty skinned, chubby and with the slight aroma of fries.

Got to look back to see the future.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

John, none of those figure doubled the minimum wage. 

Im all for people making more money, just dont think the government in general NOW is going to help anyone who works for a living with a mandatory wage increase. All the stuff the unions accomplished for us 50-70 years ago were helped by a better government.

Im not worried about it messing with my standard of living as much as i am worried about it not bettering those around minimum wage while causing more inflation


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

And I don't think they are going to double the min. historically, noone has ever come close to that.

Also, there are too many other factors at work - on the short term. 

Oil is going to continue to trend downward.
Transportation costs go down.
Cheap solar, still going to get cheaper - meaning that dollars not spent for Edison gets spent on something else - bling-bling, Disney - whatever.

Those 3rd world countries with 2.50/day wages - its a fact, those wages always ramp up, and mfrs then find it "good corporate citizens" to move stuff back stateside.

Whatever may or may not happen when you bump min wages - well that's always been true - not just this time, but every time.

Like I said, something like 5% of the workforce is at or below min wages.

*So what I'm trying to say is: Whatever wages get bumped up, doesn't necessarily mean increased cost of Mickey Ds. And inflation may increase down the road, but it won't be that 5% who force a boost - more likely, it will be the other 95% who said "hey, I'm going to charge more for my decks/remodels, because the economy is up, I'm swamped, my head carpy wants more or he's going to go to Sharky's Rip & Go Remodelers.*


The real question has to be: Why the eff, with const wages so much higher than a fast food joint - do these dweebs prefer to smell like french fries?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

All I know is if I'm making $12/hr and the guy who gets minimum wage now gets boosted to $15 an hour and so do I, I'm going to be pretty pissed because I worked to get my salary and his was just given to him and now we make the same.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> And I don't think they are going to double the min. historically, noone has ever come close to that.
> 
> Also, there are too many other factors at work - on the short term.
> 
> ...


You been around longer so I'll take your word. :laughing: I am not much of an economist. 

I hope we have one more big oil boom, I promise i wont squander it this time


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Jaws said:


> You been around longer so I'll take your word. :laughing: I am not much of an economist.
> 
> I hope we have one more big oil boom, I promise i wont squander it this time


Ya'll already have all the purty wimmens - learn to say "enough"!


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## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

I always heard the unions pushed for the min wage increase because their contracts were based on x$ above minimum wage. Prolly just some urban legend.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Leo G said:


> All I know is if I'm making $12/hr and the guy who gets minimum wage now gets boosted to $15 an hour and so do I, I'm going to be pretty pissed because I worked to get my salary and his was just given to him and now we make the same.


If that 12/hr guy is worth a damn, then why aren't they going out after that 15/hr job?

Ain't that the American way?

You expect me to feel sorry for anybody who sets on their arse and whines because somebody else is making more than them?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> TNT:
> 
> I strongly suggest you take an economics class and drop out of political science.
> 
> The marketplace sets wages, especially in construction, and the marketplace doesn't care a bit about your (or my) opinion as to what someone is or isn't worth.


I'm TNT not this guy.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Jaws said:


> So you are assuming that if minimum wage goes up, all wages go up? I am not arguing with you, just curious as to how you figure that. I doubt a 20 dollar an hour carpenters wages will go up any 4 dollars because a ditch digger is getting 15, at least not for a while.
> 
> I have no idea how it will play out. I do believe without a doubt that within 3 years it will be the same for a guy making 600 a week as it was when he was making 300 a week. I promise you McDonald's, Wal Mart, Ect.. will not loose profit off of this. They will transfer the costs from their wage increase and what little they absorb from their suppliers and vendors, after they beat them to death, replace them with cheaper suppliers and vendors if necessary, then they will pass on the other costs and probably a little extra profit onto their consumers.
> 
> I am not of the group of people who think doubling a wage at McDonalds will double the burger, but it will increase greatly. So will clothes. So will groceries. When a Coke is 3 instead of 2, cigarettes 9 instead of 7, all across the board, that 15 an hour will no longer be worth anywhere near what it was.


I will increase me rate the day it happens. If a high school kid working summers gets paid $15 an hour an experienced worker is worth at least the times as much. When you put them up against each other the experienced guy will get any task done three times as quickly. All wages are proportionate. The owner of the company will always be top paid unless it is for the purpose of growth. 

There is no way around this. There is no way there is going to be a first day on the job kind of guy working for $15 next to an experienced tradesman for $25.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Because the $15/hr job was beneath him just before the minimum wage was mandated to rise. Now he is an equal even though he toiled and rose up the employment ladder only to have himself shoved down to minimum wage. And even though it is a rise in pay, that will only be temporary as the rest of the area catches up and everything gets more expensive.


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

Jaws said:


> View attachment 206930
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


It's funny because he's got an Alberta patch on his shoulder.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

FrankSmith said:


> I will increase me rate the day it happens. If a high school kid working summers gets paid $15 an hour an experienced worker is worth at least the times as much. When you put them up against each other the experienced guy will get any task done three times as quickly. All wages are proportionate. The owner of the company will always be top paid unless it is for the purpose of growth.
> 
> There is no way around this. There is no way there is going to be a first day on the job kind of guy working for $15 next to an experienced tradesman for $25.


We will see i guess. Wages have been stagnant here for years, and from everything i hear at custom builders and remodelers councils and NAHB confrences, its nationwide. Doubt the guy who is making 25 goes to any 45 or even 30. The hands dont set the rate, the market does. Thats why in few exceptions most carpenters make very close to the same thing over all in a given area. Maybe some making 28 when most are at 18, but there is a trend. Some bad ass contractors set their rates and have more work than they can do, same for a few bad ass carpenters. Not nearly the whole lock stock and barrel though.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Youngin' said:


> It's funny because he's got an Alberta patch on his shoulder.


Out of thanks.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Because the $15/hr job was beneath him just before the minimum wage was mandated to rise. Now he is an equal even though he toiled and rose up the employment ladder only to have himself shoved down to minimum wage. And even though it is a rise in pay, that will only be temporary as the rest of the area catches up and everything gets more expensive.


So now he is at a point, where min wage stays where it is, and "he", meaning this hard working fella, will once again get his own pay raise, and be in front again Rinse, repeat,then after 30 years or so, he can retire and die.

Sounds like a plan - been going on forever.

I got news for your friend: Whether the min wages goes up by 10% or 100%, the current economy is going to continue to improve. Maybe only 2 years more, maybe a decade.

There already are reports by national builders of moderate to severe labor shortages, and its not just this industry. We cannot get enough welders in the shop, or CNC machinists.

So guess what - the only way to attract more labor is to offer higher wages. Your friends edge just got eaten anyways.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

SmallTownGuy said:


> So now he is at a point, where min wage stays where it is, and "he", meaning this hard working fella, will once again get his own pay raise, and be in front again Rinse, repeat,then after 30 years or so, he can retire and die.
> 
> Sounds like a plan - been going on forever.
> 
> ...



I beg to differ.


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## nes999 (Apr 14, 2015)

Im not worried about the minimum wage increase. Even my shops guys, who on many days do nothing more than sweep the floors and hit the store make more than 15 an hour. Im prepared and willing to raise their wages once minium wage raises.

Quite frankly I'd rather pay more for my mcdonalds and my coffee, than subsidize these company's worker's. I believe if you work 40 or more hours a week you should make enough where you don't qualify for goverment assistance.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

nes999 said:


> Im not worried about the minimum wage increase. Even my shops guys, who on many days do nothing more than sweep the floors and hit the store make more than 15 an hour. Im prepared and willing to raise their wages once minium wage raises.
> 
> Quite frankly I'd rather pay more for my mcdonalds and my coffee, than subsidize these company's worker's. I believe if you work 40 or more hours a week you should make enough where you don't qualify for goverment assistance.


Those jobs aren't for people to support a family. They are for the high school kid or Grandma as a greeter at a Walmart. They are to teach kids to suit up show up and how to meet responsibilities. They are entry level jobs. 

I have to ask, how much do you think would be a good wage to flip burgers? A living wage? 40, 50,000 a year?

Because people have decided to work at these places and support a family, doesn't change the value of the work, nor the pay.

No one should get paid contingent on their needs. The market sets wages. If Micky D's starts having problems finding workers because they don't pay enough, then that would be a market driven pay increase. It's really that simple. 

By the logic that we should pay them according to their needs or enough to live on, than why not take it a step further and pay them by the kid?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

When I was in high school I worked as a busboy making 2.90 an hour. If that restaurant paid me a living wage I would've neve left and reached my potential. 

Paying people a living wage for an unskilled job not only robs youngsters from learning how to work, it robs people from reaching their potential. 

Another thing I might mention again. If the burger flipper is making 50,000 a year how much will a carpenter need to be paid? Or the store manager? It just raises all prices and they are still at the bottom.


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## nes999 (Apr 14, 2015)

Californiadecks said:


> Those jobs aren't for people to support a family. They are for the high school kid or Grandma as a greeter at a Walmart. They are to teach kids to suit up show up and how to meet responsibilities. They are entry level jobs.
> 
> I have to ask, how much do you think would be a good wage to flip burgers? A living wage? 40, 50,000 a year?
> 
> ...


You are correct, these jobs aren't ment for people to support familys on. However I still think our taxes shouldn't go to subsidizing there workers wages. I know none of us can pay our average worker so low they qualify for assistance. Why should walmart and mcdonalds be allowed to?

I'll go out on a limb and say none of us are as big as walmart and mcdonalds. Shouldnt the small businesses be the ones to benefit from paying their workers low wages?

Im not suggesting these jobs make 50,000 a year. I just want these companys to pay their fair share like you and I.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

I made a dollar an hour on my first real job. :thumbup:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Walmart paid nearly 8 billion in income tax 2012, I think that's a fair share.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

nes999 said:


> I believe if you work 40 or more hours a week you should make enough where you don't qualify for goverment assistance.


That's just silly. You are describing s career. Entry level jobs are not meant to be a career regardless of how many hours you put in. That's why there is always the opportunity to move up or out. Once you learn all of the stations at a burger joint you apply for a promotion. If you don't get it you leverage those skills to go somewhere else.

You don't pay a bun toaster at McDonalds a living wage because he put 40 hours in.


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

Lets face it. When we traded honest, secure, manufacturing jobs for falling prices the country is left with a huge workforce that will never have the skills to secure a "living wage". Men and women who would of manned their machines faithfully and with pride were placed in limbo, as were their hopes and dreams. This segment of the workforce has to accept minimum wage positions and now wants to earn. Its wrong to believe its all high school kids, its not.
For my business no one starts at less than $16.00 and that's my lowest skill position. They must be worth that in quick fashion or we part and I try again. I have no interest in people on my jobsites believing they can stand around because they're only paid $10.00 an hour. I support a much higher minimum wage. Its the employers responsibility to see they earn it. Hell my kids are grown but I remember paying babysitters $10.00 an hour. Its time to get real.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

nes999 said:


> Im not worried about the minimum wage increase. Even my shops guys, who on many days do nothing more than sweep the floors and hit the store make more than 15 an hour. Im prepared and willing to raise their wages once minium wage raises.
> 
> Quite frankly I'd rather pay more for my mcdonalds and my coffee, than subsidize these company's worker's. I believe if you work 40 or more hours a week you should make enough where you don't qualify for goverment assistance.


So you are willing to raise their pay $6.00/hr plus? So that it equals the minimum wage hike?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

nes999 said:


> You are correct, these jobs aren't ment for people to support familys on. However I still think our taxes shouldn't go to subsidizing there workers wages. I know none of us can pay our average worker so low they qualify for assistance. Why should walmart and mcdonalds be allowed to?
> 
> I'll go out on a limb and say none of us are as big as walmart and mcdonalds. Shouldnt the small businesses be the ones to benefit from paying their workers low wages?
> 
> Im not suggesting these jobs make 50,000 a year. I just want these companys to pay their fair share like you and I.


Neither do I. I think these people should educate/motivate themselves to get a better paying job. Hunger is great motivation.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

go dart said:


> Lets face it. When we traded honest, secure, manufacturing jobs for falling prices the country is left with a huge workforce that will never have the skills to secure a "living wage". Men and women who would of manned their machines faithfully and with pride were placed in limbo, as were their hopes and dreams. This segment of the workforce has to accept minimum wage positions and now wants to earn. Its wrong to believe its all high school kids, its not.
> For my business no one starts at less than $16.00 and that's my lowest skill position. They must be worth that in quick fashion or we part and I try again. I have no interest in people on my jobsites believing they can stand around because they're only paid $10.00 an hour. I support a much higher minimum wage. Its the employers responsibility to see they earn it. Hell my kids are grown but I remember paying babysitters $10.00 an hour. Its time to get real.


Did you make up or are you basing it in actual data?


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Did you make up or are you basing it in actual data?


I did no research so I guess I made it up. I believe its common knowledge.


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

http://wabi.tv/2014/03/18/sources-pittsfield-plant-closing-doors-300-jobs-shipped-overseas/

http://news.thomasnet.com/imt/2006/08/24/overseas_competition_equals_plant_closings


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

> Originally Posted by nes999 View Post
> I believe if you work 40 or more hours a week you should make enough where you don't qualify for goverment assistance.





TNTSERVICES said:


> That's just silly. You are describing s career.


You are 100% missing the point. 
*
if you work 40 or more hours a week...*
*
...where you don't qualify for government assistance*


That's it, nothing more.

The "government" gets its money to subsidize(government assistance) from the people who make MORE money - you know, you me and other higher income producers.

The current situation: Wages stay where they are. The government subsidizes them with yours and my tax dollars.

The proposed situation: Wages go up. Income for these people now exceeds the government subsidies. *You and I no longer pay for their subsidies.
*

That's it - no philosophy over entry level or careers, no idealism - just harsh economic reality.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

go dart said:


> I did no research so I guess I made it up. I believe its common knowledge.


So was the world being flat at one time. 

Your conclusion simply isn't true.

Up to this year there were roughly 3 million manufacturing jobs open. 2015 was to see record growth.

There are plenty of jobs. But with 99 weeks of unemployment and then a ton of other govt hand outs, why would they take them?


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> So was the world being flat at one time.
> 
> Your conclusion simply isn't true.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should actually read the article. 3 million open jobs of which 5 hundred thousand are manufacturing. That was nation wide. (2012). Changes things huh? How many real employees do you have? Meaning withholding, comp, etc?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

nes999 said:


> You are correct, these jobs aren't ment for people to support familys on. However I still think our taxes shouldn't go to subsidizing there workers wages. I know none of us can pay our average worker so low they qualify for assistance. Why should walmart and mcdonalds be allowed to?
> 
> I'll go out on a limb and say none of us are as big as walmart and mcdonalds. Shouldnt the small businesses be the ones to benefit from paying their workers low wages?
> 
> Im not suggesting these jobs make 50,000 a year. I just want these companys to pay their fair share like you and I.


My point is prices will go up across the board and we will still be subsidizing them. The only difference will be all the businesses that are struggling will be out of business. Thanks to you experimenting with other people's money.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

go dart said:


> Lets face it. When we traded honest, secure, manufacturing jobs for falling prices the country is left with a huge workforce that will never have the skills to secure a "living wage". Men and women who would of manned their machines faithfully and with pride were placed in limbo, as were their hopes and dreams. This segment of the workforce has to accept minimum wage positions and now wants to earn. Its wrong to believe its all high school kids, its not.
> For my business no one starts at less than $16.00 and that's my lowest skill position. They must be worth that in quick fashion or we part and I try again. I have no interest in people on my jobsites believing they can stand around because they're only paid $10.00 an hour. I support a much higher minimum wage. Its the employers responsibility to see they earn it. Hell my kids are grown but I remember paying babysitters $10.00 an hour. Its time to get real.


So the reason you pay 16 is because you can control your workers better. I'd say that's a market driven price. 

You never answered the question do you ask your workers what their needs are than pay them accordingly? That's a serious question.

You expect McDonald's which is owned by a small business person to pay people because they need it vs. What the market dictates. 

I'll bet me as a deck builder makes more than a franchise owner. They don't all get rich you know. It certainly will tip the even smaller non franchise businesses that are on the fence and struggling over the edge. But that's a price that needs payed, according to you until all prices eventually catch up and c were back where we started.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

nes999 said:


> You are correct, these jobs aren't ment for people to support familys on. However I still think our taxes shouldn't go to subsidizing there workers wages. I know none of us can pay our average worker so low they qualify for assistance. Why should walmart and mcdonalds be allowed to?
> 
> I'll go out on a limb and say none of us are as big as walmart and mcdonalds. Shouldnt the small businesses be the ones to benefit from paying their workers low wages?
> 
> Im not suggesting these jobs make 50,000 a year. I just want these companys to pay their fair share like you and I.


If your not going to pay them enough to live on, than what's the point? I'll answer that. It's can't be about helping anyone it's about making Walmart pay, to you. If it was actually about helping people, you'd want to pay them a livable wage which is 40 to 50k.

So again those are entry level jobs, you can't pay people by their needs in a free society. That was tried in the USSR. Doctors were not very happy making the same as the cook. 

If we pay them by their needs why not take it a step further and pay by thier kid? The person with more kids gets more money. It's unbelievable that I'm having to explain the basic fundamentals of economics. Everything's a pipe dream to have this perfect little society until all the unintended consequences that weren't thought through start kicking in. Good grief.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> So the reason you pay 16 is because you can control your workers better. I'd say that's a market driven price.
> 
> You never answered the question do you ask your workers what their needs are than pay them accordingly? That's a serious question.
> 
> ...


My wife was in band and friends with twins whose dad owned the local McDonald's. The earnings soon allowed him to buy 3 over the years, maybe more later, i dont know. He was an attorney, owned a firm prior to that. Thats how he had the million or so to buy it i guess. He said if run well McDonald's is one of the best small businesses to own except Chick Filla. I dont know if that was a unique circumstance, but due to the size of the McDonald's empire i imagine being a franchise owner pays well. That guy would know, he owned dry cleaners, car washes, movie stores ect... through out the years. Probably helps Texas is a more business friendly place than most. 

None of the above means that they should pay more than they feel the job is worth if they can fill the position with that. As said above, its not a job for adults looking for a career.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

It is humorous to me that business owners think the government wont be subsidizing those making 15 an hour just like they do 7 an hour now within a short time line


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> It's unbelievable that I'm having to explain the basic fundamentals of economics.


It's that type of attitude that prevents people from learning and understanding. I didn't know that a product or service is worth only what someone was willing and able to pay for it until someone taught me. 

So when my 24 year old cousin has a had time accepting that nobody wants to pay him $1500 a week to make FB pages and tweet on the behalf of those too busy to do it themselves, I took the time to explain to him that the world, much less the tech industry, owes him anything regardless of how much knowledge and schooling that he has acquired.

So when the gov't mandates a $15/hr. wage minimum the employer now determines what he wants to spend his $15 on vs. determining what to pay. So it may very well mean that for $15, you have to come into fast food as an entry level assistant manager where you have to learn every station and the business model and objectives in 2 weeks. Everyone will have a shared interest in the profitability of the store.


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

Californiadecks said:


> So the reason you pay 16 is because you can control your workers better. I'd say that's a market driven price.
> 
> You never answered the question do you ask your workers what their needs are than pay them accordingly? That's a serious question.
> 
> ...


Market driven is a myth in this industry. You base your pricing on what others charge? I start my entry level position @ 16 because I expect the employee to perform at that rate. You may be able to carry 10 dollar guys. I will not. My work is too demanding.
Do I ask what my workers needs are? No, I don't. What started this?
The fast food is only a segment of minimum wage earners. There are many other industries.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

go dart said:


> Market driven is a myth in this industry. You base your pricing on what others charge? I start my entry level position @ 16 because I expect the employee to perform at that rate. You may be able to carry 10 dollar guys. I will not. My work is too demanding.
> Do I ask what my workers needs are? No, I don't. What started this?
> The fast food is only a segment of minimum wage earners. There are many other industries.


The only people i have ever seen in the last 5 years make 10 dollars an hour even as a straight up hole digger are complete wastes of space. Usually there for a little beer money before they quit. No real hand works for anywhere near that here, and this is nothern Mexico, hoss. 

Sure the market affects your wages, Dart. Otherwise why cant you pay 30 for your apprentice and charge for it? 16 is not an exorbitant amount of money for a decent hand who can cut blocks and move material. Id love to see my young guys make a lot more money, and we pay above what theyd get working on a production crew or even most custom companys i am aware of, but to say you can pay whatever you want to pay or feel you should pay is not correct. Except for maybe one percent of contractors, we are all in some way affected by the martket.

I cant sell a house 90% of other builders will do for 130 a foot for 265 a foot. Can you?

I am not saying you have to charge or pay what others charge, but you are affected by it.


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

You're correct within reason. I haven't built a new home in years. All my work is sold at whatever I choose to charge. Again, within reason. I find some companies charging as little as possible and as much as possible but never really the "same job". Most minimum wages are in the 7-8 dollar range. So someone's working for 60 bucks a day. Less taxes. It should be more .


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

go dart said:


> You're correct within reason. I haven't built a new home in years. All my work is sold at whatever I choose to charge. Again, within reason. I find some companies charging as little as possible and as much as possible but never really the "same job". Most minimum wages are in the 7-8 dollar range. So someone's working for 60 bucks a day. Less taxes. It should be more .


I think the gov should get to tell you how much you can make. It is only fitting if they can tell you how much you have to spend. Actually maybe we all should just put all our money in a big hat and let the gov devide it up fairly. After all they know what's best for you.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

go dart said:


> You're correct within reason. I haven't built a new home in years. All my work is sold at whatever I choose to charge. Again, within reason. I find some companies charging as little as possible and as much as possible but never really the "same job". Most minimum wages are in the 7-8 dollar range. So someone's working for 60 bucks a day. Less taxes. It should be more .


I agree, it should be more, I cant imagine living on anywhere near that now, although i did when i was single and just getting started. Children shouldn't go hungry either, but they do. 

My only problem with it is the government involvement. They cant do anything right, so the less they do the better imo. All sides. 

Im with you on what you choose to charge. When i first started practicing the NAHBR/ Michael Stone pricing theorys several people said i was crazy. Glad we did now. 

Building our first new custom other than some Casitas and one small house since 2011 right now. Sorta. Tore the house down, and built a new one. POA had restrictions that would of prevented the new construction as drawn, so we left one wall and a partial wall standing. Supposed to be like 5 walls, but they fell down :whistling 

Point is there is a limit due to the market.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Jaws said:


> It is humorous to me that business owners think the government wont be subsidizing those making 15 an hour just like they do 7 an hour now within a short time line





Jaws said:


> My only problem with it is the government involvement. They cant do anything right, so the less they do the better imo. All sides.


Yes. Except that if the gubbermint is doing something a particular faction WANTS - then its OK.

Just off the top of my head, Seattle WA, and LA have already mandated $15/hr. Have their economies tanked?

Even now, wrapping my head around the idea of jumping from 7/hr to 15/hr is hard.

However, I will repeat: Since 1938 min wages have seen increases. 

Always the same sorts either clamor for, or argue against, and I'm of the mindset that on the long term,, it won't make a hill of beans difference.


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## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Just off the top of my head, Seattle WA, and LA have already mandated $15/hr. Have their economies tanked?
> 
> 
> 
> .



No, but it's only up to $11 so far. 

Some restaurants have increased prices to make up for higher wages that they'll pay their staff, and now there's a debate over whether gratuities are even needed.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

kiteman said:


> No, but it's only up to $11 so far.
> 
> Some restaurants have increased prices to make up for higher wages that they'll pay their staff, and now there's a debate over whether gratuities are even needed.


Here in MI, tipped wages are different that straight hourly (had to look it up) tipped wages are 3.10/hr for 2015, 3.23/hr in 2016. 

And then the waitperson has to have a reported income totaling at least 5.05/hr.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

go dart said:


> Maybe you should actually read the article. 3 million open jobs of which 5 hundred thousand are manufacturing. That was nation wide. (2012). Changes things huh? How many real employees do you have? Meaning withholding, comp, etc?


Not at all. All reports indicate that nothing changed.

As for me, I just hired my first and an looking at #2 and #3. What's your point?


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## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Here in MI, tipped wages are different that straight hourly (had to look it up) tipped wages are 3.10/hr for 2015, 3.23/hr in 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> And then the waitperson has to have a reported income totaling at least 5.05/hr.


Not that way in Seattle. That's my point.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

5.4 Million job openings in may of 2015. Are you telling me those are all either whiye collar or entry level?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Yes. Except that if the gubbermint is doing something a particular faction WANTS - then its OK.
> 
> Just off the top of my head, Seattle WA, and LA have already mandated $15/hr. Have their economies tanked?
> 
> ...


I cant remember the last time any state or federal government did something i approve of. 

I dont think it will cause and economic meltdown or anything, I just think it is not the place of the government to mandate. Nor do I think it will improve the lives of those it is implemented for for long.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> 5.4 Million job openings in may of 2015. Are you telling me those are all either whiye collar or entry level?


Exactly


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Between 2005 and 2010 Ontarios min wage went up about 37%, Inflation didn't come close, not in the food industry or retail or agriculture (maybe some ag but the reason cited was always fuel prices). As of 2010 min wages haven;t gone up until this year...inflation has risen about the same every year. 

Weird

It';s not about giving someone a career jut a job they can minimally ,live off of, and that's a huge chore at $11


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I appreciate the way the government helps out the small business owners. I praise Obama for helping me build my company. I'm grateful. Keep up the good work and I'll keep sending you thousands a month for letting me put American citizens to work.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I think this is in the wrong forum section now?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I think this is in the wrong forum section now?


Not your call. Nor are you a mod


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> Not your call. Nor are you a mod


Really?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Really?


Really


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Really?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Really?


Why don't you snitch?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> Why don't you snitch?


Really?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Really.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Between 2005 and 2010 Ontarios min wage went up about 37%, Inflation didn't come close, not in the food industry or retail or agriculture (maybe some ag but the reason cited was always fuel prices). As of 2010 min wages haven;t gone up until this year...inflation has risen about the same every year.
> 
> Weird
> 
> It';s not about giving someone a career jut a job they can minimally ,live off of, and that's a huge chore at $11


Then friggin move up or on. It's not rocket science.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Right and while an adult working one of those jobs is trying to move on they need to make enough to not be living on food stamps or whatever other subsidy there is. And for the folks saying that these jobs are for kids and retirees, are there not dfferent min wages in your area for those under a certain age and over?

No one is ever going to make a minimum wage job a career, you can subsist on $15 an hour and that's about it. If we look to the past we can see very clearly that if it's up to the industry leaders to increase pay it just won;t happen. Unions took things way too far but they started out for the right reasons, should gov't force minimum wage increases...i don;t know, just sad that they have to


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> It';s not about giving someone a career jut a job they can minimally ,live off of, and that's a huge chore at $11


That's just it, a minimum wage job is just that, a very entry level job meant for very few people, the high school students looking for some extra money for the weekend, the parents around the world that either need a little extra money or they are wanting to save more for different stuff they want.

Minimum wage jobs were never to be a job that someone could live off of, it's about getting that work experience or extra income. There is no good reason a 16 year old kid needs to make $15 dollars an hour right off the bat, all this does is give them a false sense in that is what they are worth. 

When I started back up with the family business I started at $9.00 an hour, this was back around 2000. Not anywhere near an amount you could feed a family on, my soon to be wife made about the same and we lived in a semi dumpy apartment that was $300 a month, we drove crappy cars and tried to save as much as we could. 

Over the years my income increased, through hard work and earned responsibility. Just like any job the more you learned and the harder you worked the more you earned. It took a long time to earn that $15 an hour. Right now We're starting people out at $12, even with experience. I can not tell you the amount of people who come in and can yap about how they are the best low slop roofer in the world, I've yet see that. In the same turn, I can pretty much tell after that first week how much BS you tired to feed everyone and if you will stick around. If you prove you have the experience I have no problem moving you up the next pay period, as the year goes on I have no problem continuing to do so, experienced people are hard to find and I tend to want to hang on to the good ones, even through winter. 

To me raising the minimum is just another hand out. All it does is feed the self entitlement BS that the world has going for it right now. If you want or need to make $15 an hour, you need to earn the $15 an hour.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Right and while an adult working one of those jobs is trying to move on they need to make enough to not be living on food stamps or whatever other subsidy there is. And for the folks saying that these jobs are for kids and retirees, are there not dfferent min wages in your area for those under a certain age and over?
> 
> No one is ever going to make a minimum wage job a career, you can subsist on $15 an hour and that's about it. If we look to the past we can see very clearly that if it's up to the industry leaders to increase pay it just won;t happen. Unions took things way too far but they started out for the right reasons, should gov't force minimum wage increases...i don;t know, just sad that they have to


I think you need to look up min wage stats. Most that actually make min wage are under 25. Out of the roughly 76 million Americans earning a living in an hourly rate less than 2 million made min wage. That's almost 3% of hourly workers are making min wage. Of that half are 25 and under and then something like 2% of min wage earners are married.

So this epidemic you are eluding to doesn't exist. It's a fairytale. Most that earn min wage are 25 and under and most are not married trying to support a family. 

Min wage is an entry level pay for those under the age of 25. But the most damaging figure to your pathetic argument is only 3% of hourly workers make at our below min wage. So most companies and industries have raised their rates above min wage. You don't need the gov't forcing us to pay people what they are worth.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

There are way more min wage jobs than there are teenagers or retired people looking for a couple of extra bucks. When I go to a McDonalds or any other fast food it's about 1/3 teenagers or retirees working. Min wage isn;t only fast food, it;s all the food industry, most of retail and in large part agricultural. It isn;t only after school or on weekends work, those jobs are performed all day long

Like I said, here we have a different min wage for anyone under 16? 18?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> But the most damaging figure to your pathetic argument is only


Do you realise that you are about the only person on this forum who writes stuff like this? It really makes you look petty. Why not try arguing like an adult


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> So most companies and industries have raised their rates above min wage. .


But their rates are tied to min wage. So you get a raise of $0.10 an hr every year or whatever, and then you;re off the min wage index


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> There are way more min wage jobs than there are teenagers or retired people looking for a couple of extra bucks. When I go to a McDonalds or any other fast food it's about 1/3 teenagers or retirees working. Min wage isn;t only fast food, it;s all the food industry, most of retail and in large part agricultural. It isn;t only after school or on weekends work, those jobs are performed all day long
> 
> Like I said, here we have a different min wage for anyone under 16? 18?


The thing is they are all low skill jobs, all were meant to be a stepping stone. What 7 year old kids says "When I grow up I want to be an order taker at McDonalds!" ? I would be willing to bet it's very few. Same can be said for grocery sacker, and shelf stockers. 

There is a whole lot of people who work these jobs, and if the job to worker ratio is not right how is that anyones fault but the owners? No one told Mcdonalds to build a restaurant on every street corner. There is no reason for the government to step in and tell employers how much people should be making, at least to this extreme. For the most part around here there is no minimum wage jobs, they all pay above minimum wage. 

No our minimum wage is our minimum wage, they regulate the hours certian ages can work at least in our state.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

QUOTE=dom-mas;3295410]Do you realise that you are about the only person on this forum who writes stuff like this? It really makes you look petty. Why not try arguing like an adult[/QUOTE]

Calling your argument pathetic is being an adult. I could treat you like my kids and sugar coat it. Is that what you need?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> But their rates are tied to min wage. So you get a raise of $0.10 an hr every year or whatever, and then you;re off the min wage index


Your argument has always been about min wage earners not others.

You said that they can't earn a living on $11 an hour. Since there are not that many who do, your main argument has been destroyed. What's your second reason for raising min wage? Is it that it will raise the rates of all hourly workers?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> There are way more min wage jobs than there are teenagers or retired people looking for a couple of extra bucks. When I go to a McDonalds or any other fast food it's about 1/3 teenagers or retirees working. Min wage isn;t only fast food, it;s all the food industry, most of retail and in large part agricultural. It isn;t only after school or on weekends work, those jobs are performed all day long
> 
> Like I said, here we have a different min wage for anyone under 16? 18?


3.3 million earn min wage or less. In 2012 there were nearly 5 million retail jobs. That doesn't include the food or agricultural industry.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Just because someone needs more money isn't the reason they should get it. Just brede they are on did stamps isn't ok to make the businesses pay more to them. Every single dime the government gets is from the private sector business. Now People want the businesses to provide welfare?


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## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> 3.3 million earn min wage or less. In 2012 there were nearly 5 million retail jobs. That doesn't include the food or agricultural industry.



And of the 3.3, 1.8 are below minimum. 2/3 of those are in restaurant/bar and get tips. 

Of the 3.3, 2/3 are part time,


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> QUOTE=dom-mas;3295410]Do you realise that you are about the only person on this forum who writes stuff like this? It really makes you look petty. Why not try arguing like an adult


Calling your argument pathetic is being an adult. I could treat you like my kids and sugar coat it. Is that what you need?[/QUOTE]

No only some adults throw out insults, notice that no one else has?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

If you work at McDonalds or Walmart or wherever for more than 6 mos, maybe a year not sure you automatically get a raise, whether you deserve it or not. At that point those workers are no longer part of the min wage stats, but their wages are still extremely close to min wage


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You said that they can't earn a living on $11 an hour. Since there are not that many who do, your main argument has been destroyed.


What????


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> If you work at McDonalds or Walmart or wherever for more than 6 mos, maybe a year not sure you automatically get a raise, whether you deserve it or not. At that point those workers are no longer part of the min wage stats, but their wages are still extremely close to min wage


This is the issue, so say you work at one of those places and you have a 30 day review. The manager informs you that you are doing pretty well for just starting but would like you to work on this and that.

Then comes you 6 month review, and you didn't exactly excel at working on the items you were asked to. It's possible those issues you were asked to work on were the exact thing you could do to move up. But yet you want to just float along, your not a bad worker, you just don't put in a lot of effort to make your self a good or even great worker. For you this is just a 6-10 job nothing more nothing less. 

How does a person like that deserve a raise? Just because they put in the time? Do you operate your business that way?

$15 an hour is outrageous to pay for a unskilled worker. 

I think a tiered program might work, but there is no reason a 15 year old needs 15 dollars an hour to flip burgers or wash dishes or buss tables.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

dom-mas said:


> If you work at McDonalds or Walmart or wherever for more than 6 mos, maybe a year not sure you automatically get a raise, whether you deserve it or not. At that point those workers are no longer part of the min wage stats, but their wages are still extremely close to min wage


Gives you plenty of time to decide you are in a dead end job that isn't going to be able to pay your bills.

Now who's fault is it if you continue being employed there? WalMart who is willing to pay you what they say, or you, bitching about the low pay you are receiving doing a job most well trained monkeys could do.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Calling your argument pathetic is being an adult. I could treat you like my kids and sugar coat it. Is that what you need?
> 
> No only some adults throw out insults, notice that no one else has?


It wasn't an insult but the truth. It's a tired old pathetic argument that is based on misinformation and half truths.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

So lets say a McDonalds has 30 employees. 5 are managers the rest are burger flippers or cashiers, where's the room for growth? Not everyone can be a manager, you still need the burger flippers. Same at Walmart or any other retail shop

And I took a look at the stat of 3.3 million workers at min wage and it doesn;t take into account ANY of the states, 23 of them, that have min wage higher than federally mandated.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> It';s not about giving someone a career jut a job they can minimally ,live off of, and that's a huge chore at $11





dom-mas said:


> What????


Refresher


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> So lets say a McDonalds has 30 employees. 5 are managers the rest are burger flippers or cashiers, where's the room for growth? Not everyone can be a manager, you still need the burger flippers. Same at Walmart or any other retail shop


There is plenty of places with in the Mcdonalds corporation you can move up to, or use the experience to go some place else. There is room for growth at just about every place of business. Just because you are a burger flipper doesn't mean you can not work to become a really good burger flipper.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> So lets say a McDonalds has 30 employees. 5 are managers the rest are burger flippers or cashiers, where's the room for growth? Not everyone can be a manager, you still need the burger flippers. Same at Walmart or any other retail shop
> 
> And I took a look at the stat of 3.3 million workers at min wage and it doesn;t take into account ANY of the states, 23 of them, that have min wage higher than federally mandated.


Again, do you know how a McDonalds is structured? You hero making up starts and facts. There is a GM and usually 2-3 AMs. Then there are 3-4 shift supervisors. The more you learn the more you earn, even as a flipper.

In my area there are currently nearly 300 management jobs available at McDonald's. Seems like room for growth to me.


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## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

Still, most of these are part time, under 25 yo. I think you have to exclude the waiters because with the tips they're nowhere near min wage. 

So you've got school kids working after school, moms working after hubby gets home, or grampa who can only make so much before screwing up his SS, all working less than 30 hours. How do they deserve a "living wage"? You know that's the majority of them.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

kiteman said:


> Still, most of these are part time, under 25 yo. I think you have to exclude the waiters because with the tips they're nowhere near min wage.
> 
> So you've got school kids working after school, moms working after hubby gets home, or grampa who can only make so much before screwing up his SS, all working less than 30 hours. How do they deserve a "living wage"? You know that's the majority of them.


ch-ch-changes. Up until this very year,most of the people working morning/day shift at my local Mickey D's were single moms, and one gal 60 or so at the time, who cared for a husband that had a stroke. No grandpas - not a one.

This year, I noticed Mickey D's and Tim Hortons getting much younger people, and the service going....


...down.

A sign of an improving economy.


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## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

I guess all the older ones moved up to better jobs.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

kiteman said:


> I guess all the older ones moved up to better jobs.


LOL or they died! Naw they're still there - places are much, much busier now, so staffing goes up.

Now, that Taco Bell north of me - you never see the same face twice at the drive thru.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> In my area there are currently nearly 300 management jobs available at McDonald's. Seems like room for growth to me.


And how many McDonalds employees? 

I don;t go to fast food very often nor do I go to Walmart, but when I do I rarely see teenagers and usually only a couple of older people, table clearers at McDs and greeters at Walmart. Most, I would say 75% or more are middle aged women, at McDs it's recent immigrants, at Wallys it's (I'm only guessing here) uneducated white ladies. The immigrants often move on, but the uneducated ladies...the ones who would be NO more educated after spending a year at any training centre (I might be surprised but I doubt it) are there time after time, and if they aren't at Wallys they've gone to Canadian tire or they've gone to a grocery store, unlikely a unionized one. 

Some of these folks are at the top of their game, sad to say, ringing in a cash register and smoking a pack a day is their best skill set and always will be. They need to make a living..they NEED TO. We aren;t in a society where only the strong survive...it's just not where we are. Those folks cannot survive on $225 a week, not without everyone else picking up the tab. So if Wally and Mac want to make their billions by utilizing the unskilled factions they can at least pay them enough to survive

And re-read my posts...I'm not in favour of gov't forcing an increase in wages. I think $15/hr is too much in many areas. Bricklayers in Ok get $0.30 a brick, bricklayers in the north get 3-5x that. Obviously as this site has proven again and again, what one area gets paid for a task isn't what another area gets paid, so $15/hr in Cali might seem reasonable, $15/hr in Ok sounds laughable. I DON'T think it should be federally mandated, but I DO think that $7.50/hr is ridiculous for an hour of an adults time, but then again I've never been to Oklahoma, I'm sure it's nice


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Why is it anyones business what another person chooses to work for? Why is it not the business just of the employer and employees? If no one wants the job, the wages go up. Supply and demand. At one point Whataburger was paying 11 as a starting wage HERE, because they needed hands.


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## CITY DECKS INC (Sep 4, 2012)

some of you are wrapped up in this crap like old washwoman....who cares. if it happens deal with it. If it does deal with it. you'll have to raise your rates and that's how deal with it.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I aint worried about as much as interested in how people think about some things.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

100 years ago before the unions started up, workers got the shaft, everywhere all the time. The free market did squat for them, they had to band together and demand better. Unions now are such disgusting grotesque caricatures of what they were now so they can't cater to everyone. Unfortunately history has shown that with no ramifications big business typically does not care much about their entry level staff and treat them like cannon fodder. In a boom area mandated min wage hikes aren't needed, in other areas they are...which is why in my opinion it shouldn't be mandated federally but more locally


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

CITY DECKS INC said:


> some of you are wrapped up in this crap like old washwoman....who cares. if it happens deal with it. If it does deal with it. you'll have to raise your rates and that's how deal with it.


While I totally agree, my point is if someone wants to make 15 dollars an hour they need to be worth that much money, same as a 12 dollar an hour employee. No one should be handed out XX amount of money just so they can make a living. There is plenty of places that pay $15 dollars and hour or more if you earn it.

And honestly they could raise minimum wage to 35 an hour and in some areas it wouldn't do anything to help the people it is "meant" for. All that means is they get more in unemployment benefits.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> And how many McDonalds employees?
> 
> I don;t go to fast food very often nor do I go to Walmart, but when I do I rarely see teenagers and usually only a couple of older people, table clearers at McDs and greeters at Walmart. Most, I would say 75% or more are middle aged women, at McDs it's recent immigrants, at Wallys it's (I'm only guessing here) uneducated white ladies. The immigrants often move on, but the uneducated ladies...the ones who would be NO more educated after spending a year at any training centre (I might be surprised but I doubt it) are there time after time, and if they aren't at Wallys they've gone to Canadian tire or they've gone to a grocery store, unlikely a unionized one.
> 
> ...


Here we go again. More made up stats and assumptions based on your own experience. I would once again you do some research or at least pay attention to the facts that have been given to you.

It's not the job of a company to supply a grown adult a living wage. Its not the job of companies to subsidize laziness.

And why not $15? If min wage works give them $50 an hour. They would never have to worry about money. 

Please answer this. Why not $50 an hour? When you answer that you will have answered why we shouldn't even have a min wage. It actually hurts those workers instead of helping.

It's sad that grown adults remain so uneducated on a subject like this and base their opinion on emotion and not logic and reason.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CITY DECKS INC said:


> some of you are wrapped up in this crap like old washwoman....who cares. if it happens deal with it. If it does deal with it. you'll have to raise your rates and that's how deal with it.


You could just be reactionist or you could be proactive. I chose to be proactive and user my vote to change things.

Reacting is for those who say their vote doesn't count, dint vote and then either complain about what the gov't does our just rolls over on their belly, like you suggest.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> 100 years ago before the unions started up, workers got the shaft, everywhere all the time. The free market did squat for them, they had to band together and demand better. Unions now are such disgusting grotesque caricatures of what they were now so they can't cater to everyone. Unfortunately history has shown that with no ramifications big business typically does not care much about their entry level staff and treat them like cannon fodder. In a boom area mandated min wage hikes aren't needed, in other areas they are...which is why in my opinion it shouldn't be mandated federally but more locally


That was before instant news and Media. The world's moves much faster now. Stop being stuck in the past.

It took weeks for new to travel from one side of the country to the other.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

CITY DECKS INC said:


> some of you are wrapped up in this crap like old washwoman....who cares. if it happens deal with it. If it does deal with it. you'll have to raise your rates and that's how deal with it.





TNTSERVICES said:


> You could just be reactionist or you could be proactive. I chose to be proactive and user my vote to change things.
> 
> Reacting is for those who say their vote doesn't count, dint vote and then either complain about what the gov't does our just rolls over on their belly, like you suggest.


Min wage law has been in place since 1938. More than 90% of countries have min wage legislation.

Seems you need to get off your laz....seems you need to take some vitamins and nurse that proactive back to health.

:blink::blink:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Min wage law has been in place since 1938. More than 90% of countries have min wage legislation.
> 
> Seems you need to get off your laz....seems you need to take some vitamins and nurse that proactive back to health.
> 
> :blink::blink:


And fewer people are on min wage than ever in this country. Unions are smaller than they have ever been. I think my proactive az is working hard to keep this train moving in the right direction, especially with educating people on the real facts if min wage and how it doesn't solve any problem.

You can bend over and take it all you want il keep fighting.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> And fewer people are on min wage than ever in this country. Unions are smaller than they have ever been. I think my proactive az is working hard to keep this train moving in the right direction, especially with educating people on the real facts if min wage and how it doesn't solve any problem.
> 
> You can bend over and take it all you want il keep fighting.


My hero.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> My hero.


He's 100% right.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> He's 100% right.


As am I. 

Which part - that unions are smaller, and the number of min wage jobs are on decline?

And hes not the first to say it.

Or that it is TNT who has done this?



However it has nothing to do with the bone that is being chewed.

Savvy business people will adjust their prices to reflect cost increases - and move on. They can do that whether they choose to engage in social reform at the public level - or not.

But then, I don't live in TNT's absolutist world.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

> Seattle’s $15 minimum wage law is supposed to lift workers out of poverty and move them off public assistance. But there may be a hitch in the plan.
> 
> Evidence is surfacing that some workers are asking their bosses for fewer hours as their wages rise – in a bid to keep overall income down so they don’t lose public subsidies for things like food, child care and rent.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-15-minimum-wage-as-other-cities-follow-suit/


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Here we go again. More made up stats and assumptions based on your own experience. I would once again you do some research or at least pay attention to the facts that have been given to you.
> 
> .


I did read the stats, I took the same 7 second google education you did. And 9 secs in i found that the "stats" don;t include 23 of the 50 states. it also doesn;t include anyone who makes $0.01 more than min wage...like anyone who has been in a minimum wage job for more than 6 mos..you know like the un/undereducated women who make these sh!t jobs their career, and just don;t have the skills (some of them) to ever move beyond. They need a living wage. 

Also took another 3 secs to read that most "teenagers" aka anyone who is a full time student don;t apply to that stat since min wage doesn;t apply to them, basically the same tiered system that we have (along with mentally ill and maybe one other restriction)


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Robie said:


> Seattle’s $15 minimum wage law is supposed to lift workers out of poverty and move them off public assistance. But there may be a hitch in the plan.
> 
> Evidence is surfacing that some workers are asking their bosses for fewer hours as their wages rise – in a bid to* keep overall income down so they don’t lose public subsidies* for things like food, child care and rent.


So my theory has merit.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> I did read the stats, I took the same 7 second google education you did. And 9 secs in i found that the "stats" don;t include 23 of the 50 states. it also doesn;t include anyone who makes $0.01 more than min wage...like anyone who has been in a minimum wage job for more than 6 mos..you know like the un/undereducated women who make these sh!t jobs their career, and just don;t have the skills (some of them) to ever move beyond. They need a living wage.
> 
> Also took another 3 secs to read that most "teenagers" aka anyone who is a full time student don;t apply to that stat since min wage doesn;t apply to them, basically the same tiered system that we have (along with mentally ill and maybe one other restriction)


Nice try, but the post you quoted was concerning your made up stats on McDonald's management structure.

Why would it include any amount over min wage? That wouldn't make sense. So how many are just making .01 over min wage?


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## PCI (Jun 8, 2012)

I find it hard to follow a lot of this "logic" that is not based in sound economic theory. 

TNT is right on the point of what minimum wage do you want to set? Let's say you want a "livable wage" of $70k per yr. Make it so! So now $70k/yr is a part time fast food workers salary. 

How much is the hospital "assuming it isn't government run" going to offer a doctor after all his/her education, residency etc. It has to be considerably more or you will have no doctors, yes? 

So incomes will adjust with education, difficulty, undesired jobs etc.... Now your entry level job becomes an entry level income which allows you access to all the same entry level products you can purchase now.

The market will adjust, the tax code will not. Every wage earner will pay more taxes! Government wins!!!!


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## PCI (Jun 8, 2012)

What I'm saying is no matter what min wage you set today, you'll have to do it again and again and again and again! Get it???


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Why not deport 10-20 MILLION illegal aliens from the USA so the remaining 130 million LEGAL workers all get paid more with out any State. local or Federal interference with the Labor market?

Only bed ridden idiots couldn't find a job if our Sovereign borders were protected as required by the Oath every sworn office holder and Agent's take.:whistling

Over 30 of the 435 Congressional Districts exist only because ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE COUNTED EVERY CENSUS to apportion them.

These 30 Congress critters will NEVER vote to stop illegal immigration.

What next, from the Do-Gooderers, a maximum wage limit? Silly rabbits, violating Economic laws just creates black, brown and under ground markets that obey the hand of the market.

How is that minimum wage working in Commie Cuba, New York City Greece, north Korea?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Nice try, but the post you quoted was concerning your made up stats on McDonald's management structure.
> 
> Why would it include any amount over min wage? That wouldn't make sense. So how many are just making .01 over min wage?


What made up stats on management structure at McDonalds? I was taking a guess at how many managers there were at a McDonalds compared to other employees, the actual number doesn;t entirely matter, what matters is that there are more folks at the cash than there are managers, and it's not just McDonalds, it's every corporation, almost every business, more workers than managers...not everyone can climb the ladder, there aren;t as many spots on the higher rungs as there are lower

Why would it include any amount over min wage? I've explained it what..3 times? Because those wages are tied to minimum wage. Work at a min wage job, $7.25, for 6 mos and get a raise to $7.45, you're still effectively a minimum wage earner, but you've fallen off the stats. A guy gets his first job making $7.50 an hour, not part of the stat. still effectively a min wage earner and not anywhere close to the $15/hr you guys are talking about. Still nothing like a living wage


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> What made up stats on management structure at McDonalds? I was taking a guess at how many managers there were at a McDonalds compared to other employees, the actual number doesn;t entirely matter, what matters is that there are more folks at the cash than there are managers, and it's not just McDonalds, it's every corporation, almost every business, more workers than managers...not everyone can climb the ladder, there aren;t as many spots on the higher rungs as there are lower
> 
> Why would it include any amount over min wage? I've explained it what..3 times? Because those wages are tied to minimum wage. Work at a min wage job, $7.25, for 6 mos and get a raise to $7.45, you're still effectively a minimum wage earner, but you've fallen off the stats. A guy gets his first job making $7.50 an hour, not part of the stat. still effectively a min wage earner and not anywhere close to the $15/hr you guys are talking about. Still nothing like a living wage


Your explanations lack logic or reason and are void of anything worth considering.

So you are saying that because a hierarchy has fewer upward positions we should ensure that all lower positions are based on a living wage and not what those positions are actually worth. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Again, I ask you to answer this one question. If the point of min wage is to give them a living wage why not make it $50 an hour? That would eliminate poverty over night. No one would have to worry about money ever again. Everyone could support their families and live the middle class lifestyle.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

PCI said:


> What I'm saying is no matter what min wage you set today, you'll have to do it again and again and again and again! Get it???


That's the theory. No one has ever suggested otherwise - not even in 1938 - it was part of the plan from the beginning - min wages would be adjusted periodically to track the rest of the economy.

Minimum wages are supposed to track the economy.

But they don't.

As long as it is allowed to factor in inflation, then min wages have lagged the rest of the economy since a peak in 1968.


In 1968, I was the highest paid part-time high school worker at the local drugstore. 

On July 15th, 1968 I made 1.75/hr. No bennies, no time and a half for OT - nada just straight wages.

On July 16th 1968, I hired into GMC Truck and Bus and made 3.55/hr. Full blue cross blue shield, time and a half, holidays, etc. Slightly more than twice the part time job - not including the bennies.

In 2013, a starting auto worker would make 16/hr.

To multiply the same factor for the 1968 drugstore job (4.5), that wage would now be 7.87/hr.

Minimum wage in 1968 was 1.60/hr. Multiply by 4.5 and that would now be 7.20/hr.

One more: In 1968 I also could have hired into a welding shop at 3.70/hr. Today, the guys welding in the shop I'm familiar with are making right around 22/hr.

I have no idea how inflation would factor into those numbers, but I do know the numbers are actual.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

And if 50 bucks an hour is too much, than why? I'll bet a nugget it's the same argument we have for 15 dollar an hour burger flippers.

I went to burger King here in Cali and paid 12 bucks for a burger, fry and shake. I haven't been back since.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Your explanations lack logic or reason and are void of anything worth considering.
> 
> So you are saying that because a hierarchy has fewer upward positions we should ensure that all lower positions are based on a living wage and not what those positions are actually worth. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
> 
> Again, I ask you to answer this one question. If the point of min wage is to give them a living wage why not make it $50 an hour? That would eliminate poverty over night. No one would have to worry about money ever again. Everyone could support their families and live the middle class lifestyle.


You are so ridiculous, instead of just having an argument/discussion you throw out insults, so childish and unnecessary, and to then say that it's an adult way to have a conversation tells me SOOO much about you. Just plain rude and you have contempt for anyone who has a different viewpoint. Notice no one else does anything like that? Or maybe you're just the most mature person here. Wait, I'll let you tell me whether you are or not, my logic skills obviously wouldn't let me get there on my own

Yes minimum wages should be based on a living wage.ALWAYS been the reason for minimum wages.

It;s is fairly easy to come up with a cost of living index for a particular area, and cost of living indexes are or at least should be what is considered when setting a minimum wage. $50/hr isn't a considertion. I don;t think $15/hr is either in many areas, but I've said that several times as well


Anyway, I'm done with you, I'll discuss this further with anyone else


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I didn't read any insults


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Really calling someones arguments without reason and illogical and not worth considering isn't insulting? It's entirely dismissive which I find highly insulting


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Really calling someones arguments without reason and illogical and not worth considering isn't insulting? It's entirely dismissive which I find highly insulting


No its not. It may of offended you but it was not an insult, BIG difference. He may not of wanted to consider it. He may not of thought it was worth it either. It's honesty if you ask me.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I am in the anti minimum wage camp.

I also hate the notion that anyone should be able to survive working a 40 hour week. Many of us here still work more hours than that on a regular basis. A 19 year old, with no skills, working 40 hours a week, can not support themselves without assistance. Providing an easy way for them to do that, has short term value, but soon thereafter, the cost of living will certainly increase, and they will again be unable to support themselves, unless their skill set has improved.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> I thought to myself, what good does it do that kid or the team if they lower the standard?


This isn't football, it's life and no one can live life on $7.25/hr. If you had 2 full time min wage jobs (more like 2, 34 hour a week jobs because if they give you 40 they have to give bennies also)you would have a very hard time doing it here. Texas may be very different


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

in·sult
verb
inˈsəlt/
1.
speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.
"you're insulting the woman I love"
synonyms:abuse, be rude to, slight, disparage, discredit, libel, slander, malign, defame, denigrate, cast aspersions on, call someone names, put someone down; More
noun

of·fend
əˈfend/Submit
verb
1.
cause to feel upset, annoyed, or resentful.
"viewers said they had been offended by bad language"
synonyms:hurt someone's feelings, give offense to, affront, displease, upset, distress, hurt, wound; More
2.
commit an illegal act.
"a small hard core of young criminals who offend again and again"
synonyms:break the law, commit a crime, do wrong, sin, go astray, transgress; archaictrespass
"criminals who offend again and again"


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> No its not. It may of offended you but it was not an insult, BIG difference. He may not of wanted to consider it. He may not of thought it was worth it either. It's honesty if you ask me.


Dismissing someones views and beliefs is insulting, offensive as well, yes


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

There you go..to slight someone is to insult them

and actually by that definition I'm not offended, only insulted


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> This isn't football, it's life and no one can live life on $7.25/hr. If you had 2 full time min wage jobs (more like 2, 34 hour a week jobs because if they give you 40 they have to give bennies also)you would have a very hard time doing it here. Texas may be very different


I heard lots of people say the same thing back when i was doing 8 an hour. 

I didnt say anything about football. Its a related anology in my mind. Give them a living wage they keep on surviving. Thanks in large to people like us who pay extra taxes to support them.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

dom-mas said:


> This isn't football, it's life and no one can live life on $7.25/hr. If you had 2 full time min wage jobs (more like 2, 34 hour a week jobs because if they give you 40 they have to give bennies also)you would have a very hard time doing it here. Texas may be very different


Then don't get minimum wage jobs. Problem solved.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I think enough's been said, and enough opinions aired. The discussion is ultimately political in nature.

Thread closed.


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