# switch plate screws



## chris n

I am sure this has been gone over in the past but as a painter, paper hanger,I remove and replace countless switch plates,outlet covers and was just wondering what the professional electricians prefer, horizontal or vertical screw placement?I must say,I rarely( I can only think of one other time) seen horizontal ,but the job I was on yesterday in Baltimore county, they were. Just wondering.:blink:


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## Speedy Petey

They must be vertical. Anything else is a violation of the International "SP" Electrical Code section ps109.42. 

Anyone caught violating this particular section of the code is subject to fines and/or points. :blink:


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## Inner10

Vertical.


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## TimelessQuality

Vertical ... catches less dust over time.:thumbsup:


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## WarnerConstInc.

Ahhhhh, who gives a ****!!


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## Inner10

> Ahhhhh, who gives a ****!!


From what I can see very few people who fasten decora plates on don't.

Long live screwless plates!


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## newenergy

I don't understand the question. Don't switch plate screws just get screwed into the holes and turned until they are tight? How do you have a choice between horizontal or vertical?

Here's a pic if it helps.


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## 480sparky

What difference does the direction of the slot make to a painter?

They just lose the covers and screws anyway, and then the HO or builder calls the electrician back to replace them.


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## macmikeman

Up, down, all around, just make sure it's tight enough..... When you hear a "pop" you got it on good...


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## Inner10

75% of the plates I take off have just been painted around or in place! I though painters just used screwdrivers to open cans of paint:w00t:


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## rselectric1

In the chicago area, they call the screw slot "soldiering them up" meaning vertical. I like "timeless" idea that they catch less dust, but in the overall scope of things, it just doesn't matter.


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## newenergy

Is this discussion seriously about how the slots of the little screws are turned?


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## rselectric1

I think so


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## Tinstaafl

newenergy said:


> Is this discussion seriously about how the slots of the little screws are turned?


As inane as it might seem, details like that are serious business. It's the gestalt of all the little things as well as the major things that establishes the customer's opinion of your overall abilities and attention to detail. That's how someone whose prices are equal to or even higher than yours often gets the job. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky

newenergy said:


> Is this discussion seriously about how the slots of the little screws are turned?


Absolutely. Marriages have been dissolved over the toilet-paper-over-the-top-or-down-the-back issue, and some electricians are just as adamant about what direction the screw slots go.


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## WarnerConstInc.

On a serious note, verticle.

or just hot glue.


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## WNYcarpenter

Makes our punch list every time...vertical for us...

I couldn't care less in my house....I'm still missing 1/2 my plates. When I actually put them on I allign them, guess it's about "dotting your "I""s and crossing you "T"s"....dust collection is the first real argument I've ever heard. As long as both screws are the same, it looks better IMO whether Hor., or Vert.


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## Celtic

newenergy said:


> Is this discussion seriously about how the slots of the little screws are turned?


It could be worse....ground up/down is a perennial favorite :laughing:


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## chris n

Well, now I am glad I asked.:blink:


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## ampman

vertical -around here is a local code


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## JohnJ0906

ampman said:


> vertical -around here is a local code


They actually have an NEC amendment requiring the plate screws to be oriented vertically? :blink:


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## crazyboy

Toggles = Vertical, everything else = horizontal. Don't ask me why because I'm not sure why.


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## rselectric1

I hope this is not off the subject, but it is related and I've never been given a good explanation nor could I figure it out.
In suburban Chicago, EVERYTHING must be run in EMT. Romex is not allowed except anywhere near the city. However, local custom is to install receptactles the opposite way than the NEC requires. (For vertical receptacles, ground down, and horizontal receptacles, hot on top). It runs completely contrary to the reason for the NEC requirement. (That is if a metal cover plate becomes loose, they want gravity to have it drop on the most harmless thing)
Does anyone know why our area is different?


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## Celtic

rselectric1 said:


> However, local custom is to install receptactles the opposite *way than the NEC requires*. (For vertical receptacles, ground down, and horizontal receptacles, hot on top). It runs completely contrary to the reason for the *NEC requirement*. (That is if a metal cover plate becomes loose, they want gravity to have it drop on the most harmless thing)
> Does anyone know why our area is different?



Tell me where to find this NEC requirement.....

















I'll give you a hint.....under the Lochness Monster's pillow.


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## rselectric1

LOL Celtic
My point exactly. 
It has ALWAYS baffled me. 
If you dont believe me, fly to O'Hare Airport and spend a few minutes in our area. 
This is "just how they are placed here"
If you think I am exaggerating, check with Angus. He is from this area too. 
It defies NEC logic but *always* done here.


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## 480sparky

rselectric1 said:


> .......However, local custom is to install receptactles the opposite way than the NEC requires. (For vertical receptacles, ground down, and horizontal receptacles, hot on top). It runs completely contrary to the reason for the NEC requirement. (That is if a metal cover plate becomes loose, they want gravity to have it drop on the most harmless thing)........





rselectric1 said:


> ........It defies NEC logic but *always* done here.


Is your NEC written by the NFPA or the Easter bunny?

Ground up/down is not, not has it ever been, an NEC dictum.


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## Celtic

rselectric1 said:


> It defies NEC logic ......



What NEC logic?


The NEC has no requirement for up/down ~ therefore logic is not a factor in the equation.....Chicago decided they would make the decision to the question of up/down.


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## rselectric1

:laughing:
I think you guys actually believe I am making this up.
Let's phone a friend-Angus
The easter bunny has me on his blocked senders list.


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## nEighter

480sparky said:


> Is your NEC written by the NFPA or the Easter bunny?
> 
> Ground up/down is not, not has it ever been, an NEC dictum.


I thought you knew.. the easter bunny actually owed the toothfairy money.. see the make believe mob tapped the toothfairy long ago to be their "silent inforcer".. and the rest is history. Why else would the tooth fairy show up _when you are sleeping?_ Try not payin what you owe and wake up the next morning! :blink:


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## Celtic

rselectric1 said:


> :laughing:
> I think you guys actually believe I am making this up.
> Let's phone a friend-Angus
> The easter bunny has me on his blocked senders list.


I believe you when you tell us Chicago gives a crap about up/down
I do NOT believe you when you say the NEC gives a crap about up/down.


The easy way to prove it is to simply post the article number :thumbsup:


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## rselectric1

You guys are good. I just checked 406.4 and you are right. It doesn't list a requirement.
It's funny how some things just get stuck in your head over the years. (The theory is correct, but it really isn't required)
Thanks for the reality check guys.
Now I can sleep well at night (as long as I use plastic cover plates)


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## 480sparky

rselectric1 said:


> You guys are good. I just checked 406.4 and you are right. It doesn't list a requirement.
> It's funny how some things just get stuck in your head over the years. (The theory is correct, but it really isn't required)
> Thanks for the reality check guys.
> Now I can sleep well at night (as long as I use plastic cover plates)


The arguments (or in your words, theory) for both sides of the 'ground-up/ground-down' argument are equally valid.


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## nEighter

when it comes to local code though.. the AHJ is > All. Correct?


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## Speedy Petey

JohnJ0906 said:


> They actually have an NEC amendment requiring the plate screws to be oriented vertically? :blink:


I ask the same thing. :blink: :blink: 

There is NO WAY there is a requirement for something completely aesthetic. I would need to see concrete proof.


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## Speedy Petey

rselectric1 said:


> You guys are good. I just checked 406.4 and you are right. It doesn't list a requirement.
> It's funny how some things just get stuck in your head over the years. (The theory is correct, but it really isn't required)


I think a lot of guys from places like Chicago and NYC believe their local amendments are national or NEC codes simply from doing the same thing for _so_ long they just don't know any different, and assume every place is the same.


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## Celtic

nEighter said:


> when it comes to local code though.. the AHJ is > All. Correct?



Without a doubt.
The AHJ/EI's even have their own code book/s:




















:laughing:


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## nEighter

:laughing: 

:thumbsup:


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## ampman

JohnJ0906 said:


> They actually have an NEC amendment requiring the plate screws to be oriented vertically? :blink:


 no i was just kidding but this is what we tell the greehorns around here its by the NEC only no local codes at all


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## robertc65

All I can say is if the screws are not vertical I know that either the place was painted or there has been someone other than a real electrician in the box.

Rob


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## spdtrx

Celtic said:


> Without a doubt.
> The AHJ/EI's even have their own code book/s:
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:w00t::laughing::lol::notworthy I'm spent :sleeping:


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## joebeadg

And so many times I see those screws perfectly aligned with such precision, but the device is crooked or multiple devices , say, on a countertop are at different hieghts. But those damn screws are PERFECT! Not knockin guys who align them of course, just venting.


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## sy85

joebeadg said:


> And so many times I see those screws perfectly aligned with such precision, but the device is crooked or multiple devices , say, on a countertop are at different hieghts. But those damn screws are PERFECT! Not knockin guys who align them of course, just venting.


I have to agree here. I can't stand seeing a crooked plug with straight screws. The same goes for if the plug is slightly depressed in at the top or bottom and sits proud at the other side. OCD can really stink sometimes, ya know?


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## joebeadg

Yea, sw or rec should sit be flush or slightly protruding from plate evenly all around, and if multigang plate, ALL deviced should be same


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## olligator

2 years on this thread to figure out which way to turn the switchplate screws... wow.


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## dsconstructs

Some things can't be rushed


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## griz

Receptacles & switches are all set at the SAME height when appropriate.
ESPECIALLY on counter tops or any detail when pronounced.

Receptacles & switches are ALL set slightly proud of face plates & straight/plumb or however you want to call it.

Face plate screws are ALL vertical....always:thumbsup:

My job...my way...or leave

That simple:thumbsup:

Never been a problem....The EC knows from day 1.:thumbup:


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## TNTRenovate

griz said:


> Receptacles & switches are all set at the SAME height when appropriate.
> ESPECIALLY on counter tops or any detail when pronounced.
> 
> Receptacles & switches are ALL set slightly proud of face plates & straight/plumb or however you want to call it.
> 
> Face plate screws are ALL vertical....always:thumbsup:
> 
> My job...my way...or leave
> 
> That simple:thumbsup:
> 
> Never been a problem....The EC knows from day 1.:thumbup:


Agree with all but vertical on a horizontal plate...Looks odd to me. But your job your rules!


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## griz

TNTSERVICES said:


> Agree with all but vertical on a horizontal plate...Looks odd to me. But your job your rules!


You got me...Don't see much in the way of horizontal receptacles since the early -mid 80's....:thumbsup:

They would indeed be horizontal:thumbsup:


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## MALCO.New.York

VERTICAL...

Unless the switch/outlet is HORIZONTAL... Then they are Horizontal!



I have, and I shyte you not, adjusted Plate Screws in the Homes of friends I frequent!

GOD FORBID it the switch/outlet is crooked thus causing a crooked plate...


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## angus242

MALCO.New.York said:


> VERTICAL...
> 
> Unless the switch/outlet is HORIZONTAL... Then they are Horizontal!
> 
> 
> 
> I have, and I shyte you not, adjusted Plate Screws in the Homes of friends I frequent!
> 
> GOD FORBID it the switch/outlet is crooked thus causing a crooked plate...



Agreed! And a level goes to all covers to make sure they're level too!


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## MALCO.New.York

Would a random Vertical Stripe on a Horizontally Striped Shirt look acceptable? And conversely on a Horizontal Shirt?


Continuity!


And I do NOT mean "sorta Vertical...". I mean "EFFING Vertical!"


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## MALCO.New.York

Only one thing that miffs me more... A Box that is a hair too deep and the E/Trician did NOT set the Outlet/Switch at the correct depth so that a mildly over tightened plate will "pull" the Sw/Out flush and snug with the Plate. 

I DESPISE a "mushy switch" or "wiggly outlet"! Or ones too deep and there is the "rim gap" around the toggle itself!


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## shanekw1

I go to my father in law's place, where that stupid addition I'm sure a lot of you have seen is, and turn the cover plate screws to weird and wonky angles and then wait for my brother in law, who is an electrician and wired the addition, to come and fix them all. 

Small things amuse small minds.


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## sy85

shanekw1 said:


> I go to my father in law's place, where that stupid addition I'm sure a lot of you have seen is, and turn the cover plate screws to weird and wonky angles and then wait for my brother in law, who is an electrician and wired the addition, to come and fix them all.
> 
> Small things amuse small minds.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Tinstaafl

shanekw1 said:


> turn the cover plate screws to weird and wonky angles and then wait for my brother in law, who is an electrician and wired the addition, to come and fix them all.


I have half a mind to ban you for that. :evil:






:laughing:


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## shanekw1

Tinstaafl said:


> I have half a mind to ban you for that. :evil:
> 
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> :laughing:


Hey, it's a small town. We do what we can for fun.:laughing:


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## JT Wood

Tinstaafl said:


> I have half a mind to ban you for that. :evil:
> 
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> :laughing:




I always thought you were a half wit.:stupid:



THAT IS A JOKE, i couldn't resist.:scooter:


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## Tinstaafl

hughjazz said:


> I always thought you were a half wit.:stupid:


The other half is working on the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything. I think they missed a decimal point.


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## JT Wood

Tinstaafl said:


> The other half is working on the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything. I think they missed a decimal point.



If you ever figure out the answer I'd like to know myself :huh:


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## sparkyjw

Tinstaafl said:


> As inane as it might seem, details like that are serious business. It's the gestalt of all the little things as well as the major things that establishes the customer's opinion of your overall abilities and attention to detail. That's how someone whose prices are equal to or even higher than yours often gets the job. :thumbsup:


100% Agree!

It's not inane. As tradespeople, the work we leave is ALL WE HAVE. It's like a reflection in the mirror. If how the completed job looks, is too tedious to address, or not worth the time to correct; then you might consider doing something else for a living. 

Perfection is the expectation in our world. If a job is done right, looks great and "sells" your company then it's accepted. If it looks like hammered dogpoo, then so does your reputation.


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## sy85

MALCO.New.York said:


> Only one thing that miffs me more... A Box that is a hair too deep and the E/Trician did NOT set the Outlet/Switch at the correct depth so that a mildly over tightened plate will "pull" the Sw/Out flush and snug with the Plate.
> 
> I DESPISE a "mushy switch" or "wiggly outlet"! Or ones too deep and there is the "rim gap" around the toggle itself!





griz said:


> Receptacles & switches are ALL set slightly proud of face plates & straight/plumb or however you want to call it.


All this being said, a bit off and somewhat on topic, I'll admit, but what method do you guys find works best (other than attaching the box in the wall correctly the first time of course :clap to straighten out plugs and switches so they work out flush and even?

I often work on renovating older properties and am forced to make do with making it fit and have seen lots of different practices, from using various washers to space out plugs and switches, to wrapping bare or insulated 12 ga. wire around the screws to help them sit out and be snug. It seems to take me awhile of trial and error, at least half the time, so some advice on how I could speed that part of my job up would be fantastic!


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## Tinstaafl

http://www.lowes.com/pd_139429-12704-772452_?PL=1&productId=1214625


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## Inner10

I like the flexible decora plates too...every once in a while a plate need a bit of "customization". :thumbsup:


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## sy85

Hmm. I'll have to give those a look see. Never even knew something like that existed! Learn something new everyday..


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## DuMass

I’m just wondering, on a finish punch-out, what kind of Neanderthal doesn’t use a plastic non-marring level on all of his devices and wall plates and align all of the plate screws in the same direction, then wipe the plate and wall area with a clean white paper towel lightly dampened with glass cleaner when finished. 

I'm guessing probably the same kind of hump that pulls his "Romex" from the center of the coil and feeds it directly through the misaligned holes he drilled in the wood studs, without even straightening the twists and curls in the cable first. 
:hang:


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