# tell the truth



## MO-AMPS (Jan 16, 2007)

With the new adjustment to the code in regards to grd rod size
What % of installation have you guys did the "sawzaw installation"


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

I don't understand, what is a "sawz all installation"? I have never heard of that.:whistling Truth be told. Never, does statutory limits apply?


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

He's talking about cutting the grounding rod, when the installer gets tired of pounding it in. Didn't know code changed recently about that. Use 10 foot rods - 1/2" thick pounded 8 feet into the earth leaves room to attach clamps. If you use 8 footers, than BY CODE the clamps have to be below grade and listed for direct burial. 10 footers are easier.
And for the record I have never and will never do that. Beside inspectors can test to see how deep it is.


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

JamesNLA said:


> He's talking about cutting the grounding rod, when the installer gets tired of pounding it in. Didn't know code changed recently about that. Use 10 foot rods - 1/2" thick pounded 8 feet into the earth leaves room to attach clamps. If you use 8 footers, than BY CODE the clamps have to be below grade and listed for direct burial. 10 footers are easier.
> And for the record I have never and will never do that. Beside inspectors can test to see how deep it is.


 
First I was being sarcastic. Second, Unless the inspector has a well trained gopher he has no way of telling if it is 12 inches in the dirt or 20 feet in.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> First I was being sarcastic. Second, Unless the inspector has a well trained gopher he has no way of telling if it is 12 inches in the dirt or 20 feet in.


Sarcasm is a wonderful thing....but if you really believe they can't tell, you're kidding yourself. Sound travels through copper at a certain speed. Sound travels through dirt at a certain (different) speed. They can tell...they may need expensive equipment, and it may be that most won't bother...but the implication was that there is NO way on God's green earth, and it's just not so.


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

acrwc10 said:


> First I was being sarcastic. Second, Unless the inspector has a well trained gopher he has no way of telling if it is 12 inches in the dirt or 20 feet in.


First of all, your sarcasim is lame. Second, you obviously have no idea what an inspector can and cannot do. If the inspector wants to see how deep the rod is, he can and doesn't use a gopher...oh wait, were you attempting to be funny again? Maybe you should stick to installing can lights where inspectors don't see your work.

Kinda makes you mad when someone isn't very nice to you.......


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## mdcorreia (May 21, 2006)

JamesNLA said:


> He's talking about cutting the grounding rod, when the installer gets tired of pounding it in. Didn't know code changed recently about that. Use 10 foot rods - 1/2" thick pounded 8 feet into the earth leaves room to attach clamps. If you use 8 footers, than BY CODE the clamps have to be below grade and listed for direct burial. 10 footers are easier.
> And for the record I have never and will never do that. Beside inspectors can test to see how deep it is.


I have seem many posts referring to inspectors testing something or looking to see if something is connected right. In my area they don't test anything that I am aware of (in residential). Resiential inspectors used to be electricians untill about 3 years ago. Now they could be a carpenter, a plumber or a no trade at all person. They know how to check about 3 or 4 things most of the time and that is all.
Any areas here which still use inspectors who are or were electricians?


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## mdcorreia (May 21, 2006)

JamesNLA said:


> He's talking about cutting the grounding rod, when the installer gets tired of pounding it in. Didn't know code changed recently about that. Use 10 foot rods - 1/2" thick pounded 8 feet into the earth leaves room to attach clamps. If you use 8 footers, than BY CODE the clamps have to be below grade and listed for direct burial. 10 footers are easier.
> And for the record I have never and will never do that. Beside inspectors can test to see how deep it is.


Repeated message.


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## mdcorreia (May 21, 2006)

JamesNLA said:


> First of all, your sarcasim is lame. Second, you obviously have no idea what an inspector can and cannot do. If the inspector wants to see how deep the rod is, he can and doesn't use a gopher...oh wait, were you attempting to be funny again? Maybe you should stick to installing can lights where inspectors don't see your work.
> 
> Kinda makes you mad when someone isn't very nice to you.......



I don't remember doing it myself but to me it seems very simple to fool an inspector most of the time if one really wants to in some of the work.


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

mdcorreia said:


> Repeated message.


I wired my house and had it inspected by the town inspector who is a licensed electrician. We argued over how I wired a 3 way switch so I hired another inspector to inspect it and he knew my town inspector as a long time electrician. I had to go out and buy a book in order to prove that my wiring was correct. After the inspector and I gave up on busting each other nuts he confessed that he does not like to let non-electricians work in his town and he was just giving me a hard time. Every outlet and switch was inspected after the rough and final.....the town lost money on my permit fee.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

MO-AMPS said:


> With the new adjustment to the code in regards to grd rod size
> What % of installation have you guys did the "sawzaw installation"


 Can you tell me what this _"new adjustment to the code"_ is?
I am not aware of any with regard to this.


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## darren (Nov 24, 2005)

dougchips said:


> he confessed that he does not like to let non-electricians work in his town and he was just giving me a hard time. Every outlet and switch was inspected after the rough and final.....the town lost money on my permit fee.


Yeah the town may have lost of money in the short term, but they could be saving themselve alot of money in the future.

What happens in 3 yrs if there is something wrong with the electrical and the house catches on fire. How much do you think it will cost the town to have the fire department at your house for 8 to 10 hrs. I am assuming alot more what they lost of the permit fees.

I do not feel bad for you, regular home owners should pay more of permit fee and have the inspector go through everything with a fine comb tooth to make sure it is safe and done right.

Darren


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

I am confused. The OP references a new something that I was not aware of, then while his signature says he is an electrician, he suggests cutting off ground rods.

what am i missing????


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

We have several ground rods pounded around the hall and during our week of grounding we had to test resistance on the rods with the 'fall of potential' test.

Not a single one of them were within tolerence, not even the 2 rods 10 feet apart.

We also watched a video of Mike Holt pounding rods and testing, I believe he pounded 5 rods end to end before he got a reasonable measurement.

So in my opinion, cut them off all you want, they're not doing a damn thing anyway.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I don't think Mo-Amps is an electircian. There was a change in grounding, no we ground to repar that is continuous throughout the footings. Certainly easier than pounding a ground rod, more effective, and cheaper.

As for sawing off a ground rod, there are numerous things that can be hidden from inspectors BUT, the statute of limitations starts running when the failure is detected, not when it is made. A tradesman is legally liable for his work. If there is property damage or physical injury 20 years down the road that results from a tradesmans code violation, he can still be held personally responsible.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

thom said:


> I don't think Mo-Amps is an electircian. There was a change in grounding, no we ground to repar that is continuous throughout the footings. Certainly easier than pounding a ground rod, more effective, and cheaper.
> 
> As for sawing off a ground rod, there are numerous things that can be hidden from inspectors BUT, the statute of limitations starts running when the failure is detected, not when it is made. A tradesman is legally liable for his work. If there is property damage or physical injury 20 years down the road that results from a tradesmans code violation, he can still be held personally responsible.


So if a lightning bolt strikes your house and blows up your TV you can go after the elctrician for having a 6 foot rod instead of an 8? I highly doubt it.

Oh and Mo-Amps is an electrician :thumbsup:


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

thom said:


> There was a change in grounding, no we ground to repar that is continuous throughout the footings.


Yes. There was a change to require Ufers be used. The wording went from "if available" as opposed to "if present".

In the OP he clearly states there was a change with regard to ground rod size, what ever that means. 
If it is true it is obviously a local requirement, and the question is being asked as if it were widespread. 
Just another example of not being clear as to what codes we are talking about. 

Simply saying "_The new code in regards to grd rod size__..._" tells us nothing. 
How about something like "_With regard to the change in NEC 250.50 ..._".


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

Sparky Joe said:


> We have several ground rods pounded around the hall and during our week of grounding we had to test resistance on the rods with the 'fall of potential' test.
> 
> Not a single one of them were within tolerence, not even the 2 rods 10 feet apart.
> 
> ...



While I do agree they do nothing, I need them for the signature....
While at a city training on running wire through a fire block wall this topic came up. The inspector giving the class said they do in fact have the machine and they only take it out if there looks like there was shortcuts taken and if there are numerous failures of code. They don't just walk up and test all of them. Half the inspectors in my area thing GR's are BS too. I forget the kind of machine it is, and it has nothing to do with meausering between rods, it has a small sleeve that goes atop the rod and it has a graph display. He did say that he will make the EC remove the old bar and install a new one. Next time I see one, I'll ask. I gotta service comming up soon.....


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## kapena (Aug 20, 2004)

I don't know what the ground rods look like on the mainland, but many of the ones sold in Hawaii have a slight taper-in on the end along with a copper coating that does seems to stay on the end even after severe pounding. They mushroom when pounded hard, but a good inspector can probably tell if it was cut. They look for it here.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Sparky Joe said:


> So if a lightning bolt strikes your house and blows up your TV you can go after the elctrician for having a 6 foot rod instead of an 8? I highly doubt it.


If the NEC has been adopted as law in your state, and If you violate that law, and if that violation is the likely (in civil court the standard is that's the likely cause) cause of the damage, they yes, you are personally responsible for the damages. The responsibility extends to both the tradesman and the contractor. The tradesman had a responsibility to follow the law, the contractor had a responsibility to insure that its employees followed the law.


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