# Would you have passed this job up??



## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

I went to look at an addition excavation for a very nice couple on a Saturday. They had plans all drawn up and had a builder helping them with the build process. The current house has one of the nicest crawl spaces I have ever seen. You can literaly stand up (ducking a bit) inside of it, fully lit, and a concrete floor. There is no question where the stemwall begins and ends, etc. I briefly go over the options with them and state that stepping up the foundation at some point going back into an existing hill will eliminate thousands of dollars in unnecessary excavation. They also wanted some terracing, etc. Not a problem. I told them I would get them a figure first part of the week, but that I would need to know how the builder planned to tie into the existing foundation, as the plans had no details pertaining to this item. More specifically, I said I needed to know the initial grade to dig to and the step length he needed to adhere to codes, etc. No problem.

Here's the problem. I give the homeowners a number verbally and they are ready to go ASAP-plans, permits, etc. have been delayed excessively (builder was in charge of all that) Can I be there on Thursday/Friday. I said I could make a concession to do so in order to get them going-I am swamped, but they are real nice folks. I again say I just need to know how the builder needs to tie in, and homeowner says the builder says he won't know until I start digging.:thumbsup: I say that I really don't like to show up not knowing where my benchmark is and that the builder should be able to just measure from inside the crawl space-digging the outside is pointless if the exact same thing is exposed on the inside!! I stall off until the following Monday so that the builder can figure out his part. 

Sunday night comes, homeowner calls to confirm Monday and I say I am good to go as long as I know what I am digging to. Again the builder wants to be there and watch me dig. I tell the homeowner to have the builder e-mail, call, whatever..... the details of what he is trying to accomplish by watching me dig so that we can have a plan before I dig. My point is that I will "dig my way out" and if he decides he needs something else, getting back in the hole is going to be a pain.

Later in the day, the builder calls me and leaves a message for me to page him......who has a pager these days???:laughing: I page him and wait for the call back. He calls back and says he wants to know when I'll be there and he'll drive 45minutes to meet up with me-while my equipment just sits evidentally. I push the issue of needing a benchmark and he tells me it is impossible without me digging down first. I ask a series of questions about floor joists, sub-floor, underlayment, footing/stem wall height, etc. and come up with a number of 44 and 7/8" down from existing threshold. Still he says he needs to be there and gets a little hot under the collar-I don't push the issue.

I feel the real issue is that this builder has his own excavation guy and likes to do things a certain way. I also don't think knows how he is going to tie in and will eventually commit to an idea based on my input, etc. I don't want to be responsible for telling him how to build, nor do I want to get in the middle of him and the homeowner, so I tell the homeowner it might be best to just have the builder's excavation contractor do the work. I explain my reasons and the homeowner agrees that it is suspect that the builder can't give me a benchmark-it's not rocket science!!!:thumbsup:

Sorry for the length, but I always hate to pass up a good job, but this seemed like a real mess with the whole third party/elusive builder issue.

What would you do???


----------



## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Dig it.


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Based on what you have said I believe I would pass. All indicications are that the GC is suffering from a rectal cranial inversion. Seems like whatever you do won't be right & you will be the scape goat for the job. Especially if the GC has his own dirt guy. Good Luck.


----------



## rjconstructs (Apr 26, 2009)

Something doesn't sound right, probably just as well that you passed on this one. It doesn't sound like you needed it anyway.


----------



## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

Looks to me like the third party who doesn't belong there is the nice couple. Sounds like they are paying you direct. Nothing wrong with that, but if the builder isn't used to that, he may be being overly cautious.

Or maybe the builder is worried about some gray area, that he can't define. Probably doesn't know squat about foundations. Maybe he over relies on his own guy too much, and is in the dark about it.

Maybe leave the machine home, and meet the builder at the coffee shop for a meet-and-greet. Probably nothing amiss here, but a mutual lack of trust. Good opportunity for you to win over a builder and increase your contacts. Odds are the guy isn't trying to screw you.

On the other hand, guy could be a complete incompetent and/or sleaze-bag. Hard to say without meeting with him first hand. Walk him through how you go about things, and see if he can adapt.


----------



## dave_dj1 (Mar 16, 2010)

I'm with the above post, nothing to lose but a little time for a meet and greet. If in fact the HO is paying you, get your own benchmark and dig according to the plans, if the plans are wrong, the HO will have to pay. Look the plans/drawings over carefuly and make a decision from there, unless it's too late then disregard this whole post! 
If the GC is paying, do what he wants, it may take a few hrs for you two to come to like minds but may be worth it in the end.


----------



## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Ding Ding Ding!! Too many alarms. Sounds like the GC is clueless about what a benchmark even is. A pager?? Really?


----------



## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

"thousands"....to dig a crawl space addition? i'm moving to where you're at? what, you digging in concrete?


----------



## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

I offered a "meet and greet" several times and it was always "meeting on site won't matter until we are actually digging" That was one of the main reasons I felt uncomfortable. Why would I drag my equipment up there if we aren't sure what we are doing. The plans do not give any information, thus it is up to the builder to ensure his tie in and grades meet codes as well as end goals. 

As far as "thousands" to dig a small crawl space.....medicine ball sized boulders and digging straight back into a steep hillside would require multiple days of digging, loading trucks, hauling, dumping, leveling, etc.......but you should still move out here Day so you can see your first real mountain and rock-lol:clap:


----------



## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

cex, you've seen me many times on here talk about having no rock here....if i can't throw out a 2000 sq ft 7' deep hole "basement" for a new house in 6 hrs or less here, i'm giving it up! we "may" get an occasional basketball sized rock.


----------



## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

cexcavation said:


> I offered a "meet and greet" several times and it was always "meeting on site won't matter until we are actually digging" That was one of the main reasons I felt uncomfortable. Why would I drag my equipment up there if we aren't sure what we are doing. The plans do not give any information, thus it is up to the builder to ensure his tie in and grades meet codes as well as end goals.


Then I'd be skeptical too. With the homeowner's playing GC, the builder should of tried to meet with you to discuss all the gray areas. It seems like he's green and doesn't want to own up to it.


----------



## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

dayexco said:


> cex, you've seen me many times on here talk about having no rock here....if i can't throw out a 2000 sq ft 7' deep hole "basement" for a new house in 6 hrs or less here, i'm giving it up! we "may" get an occasional basketball sized rock.


I love the "production jobs" like that where you can just sit there and watch the dirt pile up. Those are few and far between here, plus everything is so tight you are often limited to a mini ex. 

This particular job would have been relatively technical as far as planning your way out and being able to get a truck loaded. Thus I needed to go in with a plan and stick to it...........I have worked for builders in the past who would move stakes after the digout and then blame the excavation contractor for lost time and overages. This could have ended up that way from the way it was going. My price was assuming a grade could be set and I could be turned loose to dig.

It is always interesting to see how difficult some people can make things without the need. Tape measures and notebook paper (napkins for that matter:laughing were made for a reason. Measure it, scratch it down, run through it forwards and backwards, and start digging. 

I really hope it all turns out well, I just feel bad that the homeowner feels like I bailed on him. Hopefully he will realize that I did so as a professional courtesy based on experience.


----------



## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

I see no problem here. I have dealt with many GC's that were a little squirrely. I ask them how are we gonna do this type of questions, and they say, we'll see what happens. Whatever. Just dig it and do your job and get paid. I think that you are looking way too much into this.


----------



## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

The factor you did not disclose was how bad you want the work. If I want the work bad enough I will do what ever and work with whom ever as long i get paid.


----------



## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

rino1494 said:


> I see no problem here. I have dealt with many GC's that were a little squirrely. I ask them how are we gonna do this type of questions, and they say, we'll see what happens. Whatever. Just dig it and do your job and get paid. I think that you are looking way too much into this.


I very well could be as you say and that is what I don't want to do. Problem is my gut was telling me that it wasn't going to work out. 

I have worked with all types and am just fine with the unknowns. This was simply a case of what he said he needed to know was already there. Seemed like he was stalling for some reason. Sort of like telling someone you won't know what color their bathroom is until you've done your business in it a couple of times and then argue with them when you ask why they can't just look at it!!:clap: 

Ultimately my job was to do right by the homeowner's who were wanting to hire me and I felt as though the builder wouldn't be up to the task of providing me with the information to properly excavate. Money isn't everything and I'd rather pass on a job that didn't feel right then try to make some money at the expense and frustration of the homeowner. Live and learn I guess!!!:thumbsup: Hopefully I made the right choice.


----------



## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

jmacd said:


> The factor you did not disclose was how bad you want the work. If I want the work bad enough I will do what ever and work with whom ever as long i get paid.


I didn't want the work......I have been running my tail off in order to get enough time "off" to finish rebuilding my tilt deck and get my bigger excavator ready to paint. This job was crammed into an already tight schedule and I made the homeowner aware of that. That is why the builder not committing became more of a dilemma than I was willing to spend time dealing with. I did not want to delay the homeowner anymore, and I have other jobs I have to be on while the builder drags his feet. 

Overall, I think the builder has his guys, and those are the guys he will work best with. Part of being a professional is knowing a good fit when you see it, and stepping aside when your involvement will create more hassle and financial burden on the client's behalf. It would have been a good job, but it just didn't seem to want to fall in place at all junctures, thus my gut said "no"


----------



## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

Sounds like you new when to say "no". Sometimes you are not the guy for the job at that time. :thumbsup:


----------



## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

These type of projects are the ones that I take total control of the minute my iron hits the ground.

Meet with the guy the day we start, pick an elevation, make him sign his name to it and get busy.

It's quite apparent that the GC either does not know/is not comfortable with the foundation end of things and that's fine. Most GC's are not good at "that which is not wood."

My approach is that we are the experts in the digging and elevation game, and some times we must handle things for those who hire us. 

In your situation you're hired by the H/O and you must be true to them, and document any issues that you have a conflict with the GC.


----------



## WC&T (Feb 22, 2010)

This is why I don't even mess with HO's and small time GC's/Home builders anymore. For the amount of money in small residential work it isn't worth the time or the headache. Unless it is a Design Build Project, I don't bid unless there is a set of proper Civil drawings with an existing Topo survey. I would rather deal with the headache of some dumb female QA from the USACE or "Project Manager" from the county with little to no civil construction experience than a small time builder or home owner who cant make a decision or changes their mind every day on the way home.


----------



## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

Thanks everyone for making good points on both sides. 

After thinking more about the project, it all boils down to the fact that something seemed a little fishy. Homeowner talking about being on a tight budget, builder who doesn't seem to be in any hurry, vague plan details, geotechnical issues, etc. No one wanted to commit to anything yet they expected me to push my schedule so that I could hurry up and wait. 

I have successfully completed my fair share of "make it up as you go" projects, but this one was different. If it was all business, I would have turn and ran right away. However, on a personal level I wanted to help, but that is where you run into trouble. 

Thanks for all the input.........moral support........different perspectives, etc. It all helps a guy sleep a little better.


----------

