# Non Grounded 120V Receptacles



## dmanola7 (May 2, 2009)

I have a job that consists of (4) non-grounded outlets on the same circuit and the customer requests them to be grounded. The room where they are was an add-on and there is no path to refeed them. I know that by code you can replace them with GFCI's. My question is... that when I put GFCI's, do I need to replace every outlet with a GFCI, or just put a GFCI on the incoming line and feed the rest of them off the load side of the GFCI? Could I use grounded outlets if it is GFCI protected?


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

dmanola7 said:


> I have a job that consists of (4) non-grounded outlets on the same circuit and the customer requests them to be grounded. The room where they are was an add-on and there is no path to refeed them. I know that by code you can replace them with GFCI's. My question is... that when I put GFCI's, do I need to replace every outlet with a GFCI, or just put a GFCI on the incoming line and feed the rest of them off the load side of the GFCI? Could I use grounded outlets if it is GFCI protected?



Sure can, just make sure you put the little sticker that says "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND" on the receptacles plates that have no equipment ground. The stickers come with the GFCI receptacle. 

Welcome to CT.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Any grounding-type recep downstream of the GFI must also be marked "GFI protected". 406.3(D)(3)(c).


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## ampman (Apr 1, 2009)

have run across this also but usually when no ground is present the house is old and they used the small metal boxes and its really hard to get a gfi into the box with two or more wires so a gfi breaker (if you can find one for some older eq.) will also work.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

ampman said:


> have run across this also but usually when no ground is present the house is old and they used the small metal boxes and its really hard to get a gfi into the box with two or more wires so a gfi breaker (if you can find one for some older eq.) will also work.


Sometimes, I nipple out of the panel to a 4square box and install a gfi recep there. Line/load the circuit and you're good.

Not an ideal solution, but it works and is legal.


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## BigReds (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm not an electrician, and don't know the codes in your state, but i've seen people use a GFCI breaker to work around that.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

BigReds said:


> I'm not an electrician, and don't know the codes in your state, but i've seen people use a GFCI breaker to work around that.


 
"Work around" what?


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## BigReds (Feb 27, 2009)

480sparky said:


> "Work around" what?


workaround not being able to fit a gfci receptacle in the receptacle box.

EDIT: ampman said samething, sorry did not see his post.


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## dmanola7 (May 2, 2009)

*Non-gournded receptacles*



ampman said:


> have run across this also but usually when no ground is present the house is old and they used the small metal boxes and its really hard to get a gfi into the box with two or more wires so a gfi breaker (if you can find one for some older eq.) will also work.


There is definitely small metal boxes in there, because I pulled one of the outlets out just to make sure no ground was present. What if I changed the boxes to deep plastic pop-ins? Do I need to replace each non grounded outlet with a GFCI or can I put one GFCI and then replace the non-grounded outlets with grounded outlets?
I actually looked for a path to refeed them with a new circuit but the room they are in was an add-on and it has no attic access or under the house access. So the only other way would to put conduit on the outside, but the customer voted against that.
Thanks for your help!!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

dmanola7 said:


> There is definitely small metal boxes in there, because I pulled one of the outlets out just to make sure no ground was present. What if I changed the boxes to deep plastic pop-ins? Do I need to replace each non grounded outlet with a GFCI or can I put one GFCI and then replace the non-grounded outlets with grounded outlets?
> I actually looked for a path to refeed them with a new circuit but the room they are in was an add-on and it has no attic access or under the house access. So the only other way would to put conduit on the outside, but the customer voted against that.
> Thanks for your help!!


If you can locate the first recep in the circuit, replace that with a GFI and line/load protect the rest. Mark them "GFI protected" and "No Equipment Ground".


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

dmanola7 said:


> Do I need to replace each non grounded outlet with a GFCI or can I put one GFCI and then replace the non-grounded outlets with grounded outlets?


I just gotta ask, are you really an electrician?

Not that I really care, but that's what your profile says...


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## dmanola7 (May 2, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> I just gotta ask, are you really an electrician?
> 
> Not that I really care, but that's what your profile says...


Yes I am actually, I have a State Electrical License in Louisiana, are you really a dick, because thats what your profile says. Is there something wrong with me asking other peoples advice. Your not an electrician so why are you even interested in what im asking??


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Now, now, no need to get yer knickers in a knot. :thumbsup:



dmanola7 said:


> Your not an electrician so why are you even interested in what im asking??


Look beyond the cover of the book, Grasshopper. I'm a pretty competent electrician and plumber in addition to my other skills. Fortunately, those trades aren't licensed here in PA, so I don't have to prove my competency to anyone other than my customers (and the AHJ at inspection time). :thumbup:

Your question just struck me as being somewhat elementary for a full-time electrician, licensed or not. No big deal; we all have holes in our knowledge bases, even with the best of training.

Getting back on topic, does your client have a specific reason for requesting that the outlets be grounded? The reason I ask is that while the GFCI solution is quite adequate to satisfy NEC and general safety requirements, it wouldn't necessarily be good enough for certain types of sensitive electronic equipment. If there's nothing like that involved, you're good to go.


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## dmanola7 (May 2, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Now, now, no need to get yer knickers in a knot. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks man, sorry for getting bent out of shape. I guess i interpreted your response differently. I have been in the game bout 10 yrs now, I dont claim to be a master electrician. Even the master Electricians get stumped from time to time, and the best thing about this field is that you are always learning something new or an easier way to do it.
I recently did my research on the non grounded outlets and i may have to find a way to pull a grounded circuit to the outlets. Thanks for the input, have a great day!!


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> are you really a dick, because thats what your profile says.


 
That was pretty funny.:laughing:


However....LA must not have much of a test. It seems to me that this is electrical 101 stuff.

!0 years? Dude, you are a sloooow learner arty: You should know this stuff in 10 months.

Find the feed, remove/replace the box, add the GFCI recep, put the outgoing on the load side and you are done.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

9 times out of 10, people don't even plug grounding-type cords into these receptacles anyhow. They might be just as well served by the installation of fresh non-grounding type receptacles.


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## Static Design (Nov 30, 2008)

mdshunk said:


> 9 times out of 10, people don't even plug grounding-type cords into these receptacles anyhow. They might be just as well served by the installation of fresh non-grounding type receptacles.



where do you pull your statistics from?


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## naptown CR (Feb 20, 2009)

What is feeding the boxes, you indicated that they are metal. Are you sure you have type NM coming in or could it be BX. if it is Bx you may have a ground there already and just need to bond to the box.


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## ampman (Apr 1, 2009)

dmanola7 said:


> There is definitely small metal boxes in there, because I pulled one of the outlets out just to make sure no ground was present. What if I changed the boxes to deep plastic pop-ins? Do I need to replace each non grounded outlet with a GFCI or can I put one GFCI and then replace the non-grounded outlets with grounded outlets?
> I actually looked for a path to refeed them with a new circuit but the room they are in was an add-on and it has no attic access or under the house access. So the only other way would to put conduit on the outside, but the customer voted against that.
> Thanks for your help!!


 sometimes it is worth just getting a gfi breaker and not messing around with the exisiting outlets (if you can get a gfi breaker for the exisiting eq.)


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## naptown CR (Feb 20, 2009)

dmanola7 said:


> Yes I am actually, I have a State Electrical License in Louisiana, are you really a dick, because thats what your profile says.


I just read his profile and I couldn't find one single reference to his being a dick


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## ampman (Apr 1, 2009)

naptown CR said:


> What is feeding the boxes, you indicated that they are metal. Are you sure you have type NM coming in or could it be BX. if it is Bx you may have a ground there already and just need to bond to the box.


bx in a house i have not seen it not saying it aint true


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> I just read his profile and I couldn't find one single reference to his being a dick


It was still funny dammit.





> bx in a house i have not seen it not saying it aint true


Lots of BX around here pre mid to late 50's


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

naptown CR said:


> I just read his profile and I couldn't find one single reference to his being a dick


That part's written in dried lemon juice. :thumbsup:


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## olyteddy (Oct 27, 2006)

Tinstaafl said:


> That part's written in dried lemon juice. :thumbsup:


Are you sure it's a lemon?...:blink:


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

Not to question whether you are a real electrician or not, but I haven't heard the term "pop ins" before. They usually are called "old work" boxes by the industry. As far as the building add on- I usually figure out & fish a new wire somehow- but the easiest route would be like others have stated here with a GFI.............


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> bx in a house i have not seen it not saying it aint true


 
Tonnes of it in old houses in Ottawa....I just finished ripping the last of it out of my house.


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## PeteL (May 1, 2009)

Tons of BX in houses all over the country, if that's what you have your good to go. Easiest solution is GFCI breaker, close second its nipple out of the box to GFCI outlet and load the circuit.


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## anythingelec (May 12, 2009)

just drive ground rods in front of every outlet right through the floor .then notch the floor and lay the new wire in the notch,poke through the wall and ground the outlet that should do the trick .if its on the second floor make sure you get coupling and extra rods .:jester:


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