# deposit and home owner acted as contractor



## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

ksl said:


> He taking me to court because he said of inadequate work from my crews. He home is old I explained if he wanted perfect walls we would have to remove the drywall shim and shave the studs and straight edge them, Or float out over our skim coat all the walls. Had I know they would put 61 patches in while our work was being performed I would have recommended replacing all those areas with new dry wall.
> I understand building standard is looking at the wall from 4 feet away straight on in normal light, Not on an angle, Most of the photos are on angle to show our work, But if you look hard with bounce light you can see imperfection.


He is wasting his time and he will lose. Your work performance should be done to the industry standards, which means there shouldn't be blotches of joint compound, exposed nail heads, none-sanded surface, etc. Everything else, like uneven studs, shadowing, etc, its e-relevant and he has no leg to stand on, and if he don't know that sue him for frivolous lawsuit, breach of contract and special damages... I think he just using that to scare you to get his money back.


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

If he is running the project as contractor/builder..you should report him for doing the work improperly in regaurds to the asbestos abatement. He is from my understanding of the CA laws, "liable".


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Spaint90 said:


> If he is running the project as contractor/builder..you should report him for doing the work improperly in regaurds to the asbestos abatement. He is from my understanding of the CA laws, "liable".


Don't forget no permits. That will really bite him in the butt.


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## ksl (May 26, 2012)

Tscarborough said:


> No permit in California? Bend over and drop your panties.


My contracts say I am not responsible for permits, engineering or permits


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Don't forget no permits. That will really bite him in the butt.


True. Personally if this guy threatened to take me to court..id probably laugh. 

I would probably refund him for the work i didnt do, make sure i was covered for what i did and walk. Sounds like headaches comming your way if you stay and finish it out.


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## ksl (May 26, 2012)

Spaint90 said:


> True. Personally if this guy threatened to take me to court..id probably laugh.
> 
> I would probably refund him for the work i didnt do, make sure i was covered for what i did and walk. Sounds like headaches comming your way if you stay and finish it out.


Thanks I don't want to do any more work for them tried very hard to make him happy. But its a small town out side of LA and he has friend that are painters that are going to take his side. I know nobody in his town As most of our work is in the LA beach areas


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## ksl (May 26, 2012)

ksl said:


> Yes because we were not there we had some small touch ups


Sorry meant to say we were not completed with our touch ups after primer


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

I mean in all honesty, i would hope that his friends would take his side. But from a legal standpoint..your not doing anything wrong by squaring up and walking if you did the work right. If he decides to take you to court, he has alot more to loose than you once they start getting into his project..if he is smart and has done his research he knows this and is bluffing you.

again idk the exact contract, havent seen the work..dont know what the deal is 100%. But from what you are saying..he has violated laws on that project. HO, acting as the builder in CA has to pull the permits and is ultimately responsible for following all the laws on a projects. He is the "contractor"


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## ksl (May 26, 2012)

Spaint90 said:


> I mean in all honesty, i would hope that his friends would take his side. But from a legal standpoint..your not doing anything wrong by squaring up and walking if you did the work right. If he decides to take you to court, he has alot more to loose than you once they start getting into his project..if he is smart and has done his research he knows this and is bluffing you.
> 
> again idk the exact contract, havent seen the work..dont know what the deal is 100%. But from what you are saying..he has violated laws on that project. HO, acting as the builder in CA has to pull the permits and is ultimately responsible for following all the laws on a projects. He is the "contractor"


Ya, I am afraid he will find sanding marks or some more pin hole we did not see and use that against us, Although I wrote him letter that if he found any areas of concern we would take care of them. Have not heard back. I even offered a free concrete counter for their master bath to help satisfied them. To show I was not bailing on them. Owell can't lose sleep over it. thanks for the help


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## ksl (May 26, 2012)

greg24k said:


> He is wasting his time and he will lose. Your work performance should be done to the industry standards, which means there shouldn't be blotches of joint compound, exposed nail heads, none-sanded surface, etc. Everything else, like uneven studs, shadowing, etc, its e-relevant and he has no leg to stand on, and if he don't know that sue him for frivolous lawsuit, breach of contract and special damages... I think he just using that to scare you to get his money back.


There are one or two patches that can be seen on a angle as the sun is setting, Some random sanding scratches we hit it with 150 then 220. I would hope the painter could step up and take a step if he sees some small areas we all missed, I did send him email stating we would come back and touch up more if need be. I did not duck and run from the job. He is also claiming my guys did not put in the hours they should have


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Spaint90 said:


> True. Personally if this guy threatened to take me to court..id probably laugh.
> 
> I would probably refund him for the work i didnt do, make sure i was covered for what i did and walk. Sounds like headaches comming your way if you stay and finish it out.


I'm kinda with Spaint here on this one. I'd prolly tell him to go pour piss out of a boot, and not do any more work for the douche. If he is fault-finding to get out of paying, there's no doubt he'll continue doing so on any future work you do for him. Sad, but I'm hearing these stories more and more all the time. 

I may be mistaken on this, because I haven't checked on it recently, but I'm in the same state as you are, and I thought that there was mandatory arbitration on construction disputes under a certain dollar amount, prior to filing in small claims. Maybe not. But it might be something you will want to add to your contracts in the future.


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## ksl (May 26, 2012)

A.T.C. said:


> I'm kinda with Spaint here on this one. I'd prolly tell him to go pour piss out of a boot, and not do any more work for the douche. If he is fault-finding to get out of paying, there's no doubt he'll continue doing so on any future work you do for him. Sad, but I'm hearing these stories more and more all the time.
> 
> I may be mistaken on this, because I haven't checked on it recently, but I'm in the same state as you are, and I thought that there was mandatory arbitration on construction disputes under a certain dollar amount, prior to filing in small claims. Maybe not. But it might be something you will want to add to your contracts in the future.


Thanks I had one arbitration in my 23 years of being bonded and licensed here. It was a frigging joke I installed some concrete kitchen counters in Long Beach. As we have made over 1000 counter top since 1995.They went after me because of one seam in the counter at a right angle. And said the edges were not smooth enough. The arbitration never even sent someone to look at our work. The investigation department at CSLB said they did not have to go to. And I lost at the arbitration had to pay all there money back and they got to keep the counter tops. I can even tell you how disappointed I was with the whole construction process here in this state. I will never go to arbitration again. I will choose court over it. The state board is used to make honest contractors broke and bad ones rich. I had a project in Beverly hills an addition there was a guy remodeling next to us. Bragging he was not a contractor had 15 guys working on his project. Then came next door and told my client we were doing some work wrong. Of course I reported him the investigating unit came out once could not find him. And gave up.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

The HO did a good thing (and the right thing) by paying you now and suing you later. Most times the HO will refuse to pay.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

ksl said:


> There are one or two patches that can be seen on a angle as the sun is setting, Some random sanding scratches we hit it with 150 then 220. I would hope the painter could step up and take a step if he sees some small areas we all missed, I did send him email stating we would come back and touch up more if need be. I did not duck and run from the job. He is also claiming my guys did not put in the hours they should have


Thats all normal, when you tape and sand a big job, there is no way for a taper to know how some areas will look after painting is done. That is pretty much standard practice, that before painter does final paint touch-up on the job, they will touch it up small taping or sanding imperfections. If taping job was really bad, you will notice it after paint is applied, and if the job is really bad as he say it is, the GC should have called you to touch up the bad spots. That is normal practice, and if he didn't do that, and paid you in full for the job done, it means he just trying to get you out of the contract for other reasons.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

greg24k said:


> Thats all normal, when you tape and sand a big job, there is no way for a taper to know how some areas will look after painting is done. That is pretty much standard practice, that before painter does final paint touch-up on the job, they will touch it up small taping or sanding imperfections. If taping job was really bad, you will notice it after paint is applied, and if the job is really bad as he say it is, the GC should have called you to touch up the bad spots. That is normal practice, and if he didn't do that, and paid you in full for the job done, it means he just trying to get you out of the contract for other reasons.


I second this. I have never seen a perfect job. When we finish walls it is tape and mud, then prime. Mud some more, then paint first coat. Mud some more then paint. We then walk the project and try to find any additional areas that need touch ups and fix as needed.

They should have done what Greg said and called back before final payment. Final payment is usually seen as an agreement that the job is completed to the satisfaction of the customer. I don't think that they will have much leg to stand on when asked why did you make the final payment if you were not satisfied with the work.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

sounds like you really don't have much to worry about..not sure how the laws work and if the legal system would find fault in you as a contractor about working on a job wit no permits though..

that's the beauty of our system..people can sue all they want..but now they have to get the money ..which is very difficult to do from our types of businesses....its really a joke..

this comment may spark a series of comments, but its fact..
the court may tell you or your business you owe the money,but they cant make you pay..

I would be prepared for false documentation of the job form the HO..if he has painter friends, they will probably fabricate a bill for repairs larger then the disputed amount with no repairs ever actually have taken place..

now to answer your original post, the deposit for the counter tops depends on what you have done..did you purchase materials for it? order it? special order etc?

He may just be entitled to a portion of it..legally and /or morally..

give him half back and walk...


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

James,

He don't have to give him nothing back... The HO is a GC and he hired him to do counter top, taping and tile work... jobs that don't require permit, and if the whole job did require permit, that would be the responsibility of the HO, who is acting as GC.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

greg24k said:


> James,
> 
> He don't have to give him nothing back... The HO is a GC and he hired him to do counter top, taping and tile work... jobs that don't require permit, and if the whole job did require permit, that would be the responsibility of the HO, who is acting as GC.


This is correct. Lien the house and counter sue for an extra 5g. The burden of proof is now on them.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

Greg..

its all subjective...

and depends on the conscience and morality of the OP...
i doubt this will even see court, but if it did...courts favor HOs..

the court wont look at them as a GC..it will look at them as a Homeowner/consumer..

I personally would just give 275 back on the counters..he is paid for all other work.

the 275 i keep would justify and work i put in the counter tops..pricing,calls estimating..

if ti ends up in court.. it would look favorable..

if the order was placed and there are materials on the line now..then the owner can go scratch..

all legalities aside, we are still men with I hope some morality..
why keep something you didn't do..he didn't put in the counters..
and still walking away paid for all work, plus 275..

or just play hardball and wait for court..
I personally don't think he has anything to worry about even if it all blew up in his face.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

jamestrd said:


> Greg..
> 
> its all subjective...
> 
> ...


A deposit is a guarantee. If they want to renege, then they lose the deposit. They are the ones in breach of the contract, not the contractor. It's not dishonest to keep the deposit. The fact that they are threatening to sue for $4500 speaks volumes to their intentions.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Nobody's even mentioned RRP. If the home is that old, then RRP practices should have taken place. If the HO is acting as the GC I'm not quite certain exactly what his responsibilities are. You may also be on the hook as well since I'm "assuming" you also carry a license. In which case, you should already be RRP certified and doing RRP LEAD SAFE procedures on a home that old. 

If this thing ends up in court, this could be a huge can of worms where all parties involved could be in some trouble.


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## ksl (May 26, 2012)

CompleteW&D said:


> Nobody's even mentioned RRP. If the home is that old, then RRP practices should have taken place. If the HO is acting as the GC I'm not quite certain exactly what his responsibilities are. You may also be on the hook as well since I'm "assuming" you also carry a license. In which case, you should already be RRP certified and doing RRP LEAD SAFE procedures on a home that old.
> 
> If this thing ends up in court, this could be a huge can of worms where all parties involved could be in some trouble.


Yes I agree with you on all parties getting the shaft. When they called me to the job for a first look at the walls, ceiling and kitchen. All the pop corn ceiling was on the floor. They completed that work before I stepped into the property. They also have a another contractor who is remodeling the bathroom, moving electrical and plumbing with no permits


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## ksl (May 26, 2012)

jamestrd said:


> Greg..
> 
> its all subjective...
> 
> ...


I am not so concerned about the deposit he could have that back I am more worried about a 4500 dollar law suit. As I have just broken even now on the job. all though I do have many pictures shows nice ceiling and many touch ups through out the home from start to finish. ANd went back three times for minor touch ups. Thanks you


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## ksl (May 26, 2012)

Spaint90 said:


> If he is running the project as contractor/builder..you should report him for doing the work improperly in regaurds to the asbestos abatement. He is from my understanding of the CA laws, "liable".


ya I might not sure how long he has to take me to court don't want to through gas on the fire


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## ksl (May 26, 2012)

jhark123 said:


> Well, I think it really maters wether your level 5 looks like crap or not. The definition of level 5 is a pretty high standard, if you didn't meet industry standards they have an argueable case regardless of the contract. Care to post pictures?


Dave I would share some photos not sure how to do it


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

jamestrd said:


> and depends on the conscience and morality of the OP...
> i doubt this will even see court, but if it did...courts favor HOs..
> 
> the court wont look at them as a GC..it will look at them as a Homeowner/consumer..


James, I have to disagree with you here. Courts don't favor anyone, courts go strictly by evidence and the law. You talk to anyone who's been to court and lost, they will always say the Judge took others side, same if you talk to anyone who is locked up, everyone is innocent and the Judge put them there because he took cops side, and the gun they found on me I just found it.

I've been to court with HO on 3 occasions on Breach of contract case. One case involved property purchase, where HO backed out and breached the contract I won 60k. 
Another case was also breach of contract,people found someone cheaper while I was waiting for permit... Judge allowed me to keep deposit of $900, but didn't award me to keep my profit, because my contract didn't have a few required clause...(valuable lesson learner).
3d case was also breach of contract, HO started to change what they agreed to, wouldn't make a selection, etc, then after 3 weeks, they just said we changed our mind and decided not to do the job, we want our deposit back. This time I had a full proof contract, and I was awarded to keep $1,500 deposit and another $2,500 for the loss of profit. 

In every Contractor vs. HO case, the only reason contractor loosing the case, is because the contract wasn't honored, work wasn't completed, or work wasn't done to industry standards... and I have seen some of that work in my time, that if I was a Judge, and if was legal to shoot people who do this kind of work, I would throw the book at them:laughing: Not to mention when you do what you said you will and you do a good job, nobody will take you to court. We build close to 60 homes and we did hundreeds of jobs and nobody every sued me or had any issues with my work, except the 3 mentioned lawsuits filed by me.

If you did what you agreed and you did a good job, and people try to screw you, they don't have a chance. Same think in the OP case, I don't know his work, I didn't see it, but he said the guy paid him in full, and now he wants all money back because the job was F'ked up... you don't get nothing back other then going back and touching up a few spots you don't like, and if you press this issue further and try to back out from the contract you signed, you in breach of contract, and you will lose...if you have no proof that he really messed everything up.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Pictures say a thousand words,,,,,,,

With out them,,,,,

it's all just speculation and an abundance of assumtions......


How did you get this client?:blink:

B,


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## ksl (May 26, 2012)

PrestigeR&D said:


> Pictures say a thousand words,,,,,,,
> 
> With out them,,,,,
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply. He was referred to me by a friend of a friend for the counters, When I met with them we discussed that I helped run one of LA biggest residential drywall companies, so that how I got in to that contract with them. We have very picky clients as we did Steve Perry Home many celebs home. This house cal bird view in Malibu, 26,000 million dollar home. But I have never been to court in 23 years of being a contractor. I really try my best to satisfy the customer, I do take photos from start to finish


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

ksl said:


> Thanks for your reply. He was referred to me by a friend of a friend for the counters, When I met with them we discussed that I helped run one of LA biggest residential drywall companies, so that how I got in to that contract with them. We have very picky clients as we did Steve Perry Home many celebs home. This house cal bird view in Malibu, 26,000 million dollar home. But I have never been to court in 23 years of being a contractor. I really try my best to satisfy the customer, I do take photos from start to finish


Stick to your guns my friend, you got this one in the bag, this guy just trying to get out from under the contract... if you got evidence of the job well done, and the job you already got paid for, and if you cannot reason with this guy, because he wants you out... File the claim for breach of contract and file for the whole amount, do not deduct from the amount what he already paid. If the amount exceeds the limit of a small claim court maximum, file the case in special court division. Before you do that, you can get free lawyer consultation and they will tell you right off the bat you have a case or not.

Good luck


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

ksl said:


> There are one or two patches that can be seen on a angle as the sun is setting, Some random sanding scratches we hit it with 150 then 220. I would hope the painter could step up and take a step if he sees some small areas we all missed, I did send him email stating we would come back and touch up more if need be. I did not duck and run from the job. He is also claiming my guys *did not put in the hours they should have*


I find this strange. I wonder if it was a catalyst for more moaning and groaning.

I think you said you been doing this 23 years, right? How long did he think it should take?


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## ksl (May 26, 2012)

boman47k said:


> I find this strange. I wonder if it was a catalyst for more moaning and groaning.
> 
> I think you said you been doing this 23 years, right? How long did he think it should take?


I told him total time we need was two weeks that includes dry time and sanding with touch up. I believe he thinks a level five is three skim coats over the entire surface of the wall and does not understand the level 5 process total time for man hours 4 guys 5 to 6 days at 35 per hour per man


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

greg24k said:


> James, I have to disagree with you here. Courts don't favor anyone, courts go strictly by evidence and the law. You talk to anyone who's been to court and lost, they will always say the Judge took others side, same if you talk to anyone who is locked up, everyone is innocent and the Judge put them there because he took cops side, and the gun they found on me I just found it.
> 
> 
> Greg..
> ...


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

jamestrd said:


> greg24k said:
> 
> 
> > James, I have to disagree with you here. Courts don't favor anyone, courts go strictly by evidence and the law. You talk to anyone who's been to court and lost, they will always say the Judge took others side, same if you talk to anyone who is locked up, everyone is innocent and the Judge put them there because he took cops side, and the gun they found on me I just found it.
> ...


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

Greg,

you'd be surprised what people with money can do..wake up..not going to go back and forth with you..

the civil court system is a joke.sometimes a criminal system.. is worse.

but at least we don't chop off hand soft stealing..

ok ....I did not have sexual relations with that woman..


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

jamestrd said:


> Greg,
> 
> you'd be surprised what people with money can do..wake up..not going to go back and forth with you..
> 
> ...


Sorry brother but that's just class BS. People with money and a lot of people without money get off all the time. Get over it. 

Contract law is very different. And Greg is correct proving a loss is not as easy as you make it.

I would also think that you should know better. Since you have admitted to not ever really being sued, then how can you argue with a guy who has been sued three times? Stop being an arm chair lawyer and stick to what ever it is that you do.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

What is it with you Jersey guys getting into pi$$ing matches lately?


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

A sad state of affairs ,when we have to be concerned about being the "MORAL" ones, when we are the ones being" SCREWED"


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

TNT<

I am simply pointing out the the very real injustices.
But i agree..i wont use the class war card right now..

but funny how clinton wife runs for president, he never does any time and I'll be damned if his quality of life ran down..

where are the billion Madoff took? he doesn't have to pay one red cent.

take me to court 100 times and I will show you 100 ways on each time you will not get paid..


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

jamestrd said:


> .
> 
> take me to court 100 times and I will show you 100 ways on each time you will not get paid..


I wouldn't bet on that comment :laughing:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What is it with you Jersey guys getting into pi$$ing matches lately?


It's the Garden State Bro... must be the air :thumbsup::laughing:


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