# Miss Quoted Job?



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I just finished a small backsplash job at my sisters home. They hired a professional painting crew to paint the whole house. This is all "new" work as it was a major renovation. Three storey home, 10 foot ceilings.

So, the home is 3000 sq. ft. 40 windows with heavy trim. Average amount of prep work to do. It is not "ready to paint". Heavy trim on all the doors, maybe 15 doors. Crown on two floors.

They have to fill, prime, sand and two finish coats. Ceilings to be prime and one coat. Staircase from first to third floor is all square pickets to be painted. The handrails are staingrade but no finish required.

I do my own painting and did paint exclusively for about two years, so I've got a fair idea of how much work this is.

I guessed this job to be between $16,000 and $18,000. HO is supplying the paint, so it's basically labour only.

This guy is doing the job for $10,000. He has three other guys with him and says he'll be done in two weeks. I say no way. He came highly recommended to them and claims to do high end workmanship.

I'll see how it's going in two weeks. And since this is my sisters' home I can go and see the job when it's done. I'm just throwing this out here for you guys. I think he way underquoted the job.

I'll post back how long it takes them to do the job and what the finished product looks like. I'll take some pics for you also.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Calculator says $31.25/hr. average per man.
Sounds kind of on the low side.
High end guy?:whistling


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

griz said:


> Calculator says $31.25/hr. average per man.
> Sounds kind of on the low side.
> High end guy?:whistling


I think the price is very competitive IF they can do it in two weeks. I don't think so. He's probably paying his guys about $20/hr. 

I know I could not do this job for that price. We'll see how it pans out.


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

I did a job like that last year with the exact same description. I bid it at 18k myself. I called in a guy to paint it for me and he bid it to me at 7k and said they would have it done in 8 days. I thought he was nuts. But, they got it done. And the job was done top notch. They had 8-10 guys working from 6 am to 11 pm every day.


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## Schmidt & Co (Jun 2, 2008)

I kind of feel bad for the guy. Just curious, is the guy just starting out and inexperienced? Might be that he is going to get a good lesson in proper estimating......... :wallbash:


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

I'm praying for your sister on this one. Painters can really screw stuff up! If he's "high end" then it should turn out magazine photo shoot ready like your work

:thumbup:


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

CJA said:


> I did a job like that last year with the exact same description. I bid it at 18k myself. I called in a guy to paint it for me and he bid it to me at 7k and said they would have it done in 8 days. I thought he was nuts. But, they got it done. And the job was done top notch. They had 8-10 guys working from 6 am to 11 pm every day.


This math just doesn't work. Average of 9 guys, 16.5 hrs per day (1/2 hr lunch), and 8 days. This equals out to 6 bucks an hour with no overtime figured in. Are you subbing out these " top notch" jobs to uninsured contractors? Either that or you have grossly overstated the situation.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

To answer a few questions - these guys are professional painters, not just starting out.

It is very high end work. I expect near flawless work - walls sanded between coats, no visible brush marks, etc.

Seeing as it's my sister, I wish her luck too. As happens, the project exceeded budget and now they're trying to save a few bucks. We'll see.

Next Tuesday is two weeks. I can't wait. :whistling

I'll get pics, close up pics.


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## Florida11 (Dec 22, 2010)

Yeah I can't wait either


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

Warren said:


> This math just doesn't work. Average of 9 guys, 16.5 hrs per day (1/2 hr lunch), and 8 days. This equals out to 6 bucks an hour with no overtime figured in. Are you subbing out these " top notch" jobs to uninsured contractors? Either that or you have grossly overstated the situation.


Nope! I stated the situation correctly. The contractor I hired, I have all the required insurance documentation on. He turned around and hired another at a lower cost. The liability for hiring those guys lies on the contractor I awarded the job to. Not me. I agree with what you're say though. I have a feeling the sub's sub was paying by the day not the hour. Again, that liability falls on the contractor I hired, being he sub'ed it out himself.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

CJA said:


> Nope! I stated the situation correctly. The contractor I hired, I have all the required insurance documentation on. He turned around and hired another at a lower cost. The liability for hiring those guys lies on the contractor I awarded the job to. Not me. I agree with what you're say though. I have a feeling the sub's sub was paying by the day not the hour. Again, that liability falls on the contractor I hired, being he sub'ed it out himself.


Not sure about the laws in your state, but here that is incorrect. Not to mention the fact that you never checked for the proper insurance.


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

I have the contractor's I hired insurance doc on file. How he employs people is his deal.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

CJA said:


> I have the contractor's I hired insurance doc on file. How he employs people is his deal.


So if someone gets hurt on the job, who will get sued?


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

It doesn't matter what state, this is America. Everyone is getting sued.


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

Agreed. I'm not arguing that fact. The fact is that I was unaware that those guys weren't his actuall employees until late in the job. I hired a contractor to do a job for me and veried their info. I was in contract with him to uphold the law on his part. If he failed to do so, that's on him. Either way I got a great job done for a very low price.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

CJA said:


> Agreed. I'm not arguing that fact. The fact is that I was unaware that those guys weren't his actuall employees until late in the job. I hired a contractor to do a job for me and veried their info.


But you had bid the job for $18000, and this guy was gonna do it at $7000, so you had to know something was not right. I hope you keep a lawyer on retainer with all the money your making.


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

How my contractors bid their jobs is not my problem. I have used this guy several times before at a very low cost. He used his own guys everytime before. As I said, he has all the required documentation validating his business. In my mind if he wants to take a loss on a job and is happy, then that's his business. All the other jobs he did for me before that time where small but i still thought they were too low. Again, I'm not here to price my subs jobs out for them.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

CJA said:


> How my contractors bid their jobs is not my problem. I have used this guy several times before at a very low cost. He used his own guys everytime before. As I said, he has all the required documentation validating his business. In my mind if he wants to take a loss on a job and is happy, then that's his business. All the other jobs he did for me before that time where small but i still thought they were too low. Again, I'm not here to price my subs jobs out for them.


Let me humor you and assume you are all legit. What a great relationship you have with this sub, to watch him take a hit time after time. Then when he goes down you go find another lowballer?


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

Warren said:


> Let me humor you and assume you are all legit. What a great relationship you have with this sub, to watch him take a hit time after time. Then when he goes down you go find another lowballer?


You don't have to "humor" me. I'm am fully legit. I'm a commercial contractor that just started doing some residential upon customer request. I can't go to my commercial contractors for residential work because they won't pay those rates. This guy is strictly residential. This contractor has always been happy with the rates he has charged. I (in my opinion) think his rates are way too low. If he feels he is making money then that's his thing. I have questioned him on several times on his pricing. He stands by it. I don't look for lowballers. And i rarely take the lowest number on my commercial jobs. I don't do much residential. Finding good residentail contractors is hard. If he feels he's making money at those rates that's his business. So don't insult me telling me your humoring me by calling me legit.


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

Matter of fact, getting a residential contractor to even show up to walk a job is almost impossible.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

CJA said:


> Matter of fact, getting a residential contractor to even show up to walk a job is almost impossible.


Maybe this is only the case on your jobs. I wonder why that is?:whistling


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

Warren said:


> Maybe this is only the case on your jobs. I wonder why that is?:whistling


Scr^w you. I don't look for low ballers. I look for people to show up on time to bid a job and complete a job with quality and I''m willing to pay for it. What they bid the job at is their business.


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## Miss Brown (Mar 30, 2011)

Geepers! I don't know much, but that price is ridiculous. Indentured workers? Last time I got underbid severely, the other painters 1. Didn't prime the drywall (peeled) 2. Didn't sand or prime the oil-based trim and 3. Painted latex semi-gloss on the oil trim. Originally, they said they hired the other dudes to do it because they were a big crew, thus, faster. Well. Thumb on the nose, they paid me to fix it.


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## bhock (Feb 17, 2009)

CJA said:


> As I said, he has all the required documentation validating his business.


This is 2011 I can have all the required documentation to build an atomic bomb in my yard. Did you ever verify his documentation? Not busting your chops, but I can print out certificates of liability all day long for pennies a copy, the forms are online for free. Just seeing documentation does not constitute legitamacy.


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

bhock said:


> This is 2011 I can have all the required documentation to build an atomic bomb in my yard. Did you ever verify his documentation? Not busting your chops, but I can print out certificates of liability all day long for pennies a copy, the forms are online for free. Just seeing documentation does not constitute legitamacy.


I don't except certificates of insurance form contractors. It has to come directly form the insurance company/agent.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Back to the point of a contractor letting someone work for what he knows is a loss. Why is this a bad idea? Because for one, when he gets halfway through the job, and realizes his loss, he will probably hurrry, use inferior products, or hire illegal workers. Number two, he will soon go under after a few losses. Try calling him back for repairs when he is no longer in business.


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## FHS (Apr 24, 2010)

I always verify insurance documentation with a phone call to the ins agent, I also tell homeowners that i bid work for to do the same with anyone they hire, including me...lets them know i have their best intersts in minds


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

I hi-jacked a thread last night. I'm not going to do it again. If you want to continue start a new thread.


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## FHS (Apr 24, 2010)

I have two guys that ocasionally I sub work to, they work for half of what i do and do a top notch job, they have an advantage over me by still living at home with their parents haha! Not my fault they work too cheap.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

As I see it there are three possible outcomes here.

1 - he finishes on time and the job is average quality. Or worse.

2- he goes over on time, makes no money, but delivers the quality.

3 - he finishes on time and it's a quality job.

OOps, option #4 - he goes over on time, makes no money and does a hack job.

:w00t::w00t: Praying for # 3 so I don't get called to come and fix it.


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

FHS said:


> I have two guys that ocasionally I sub work to, they work for half of what i do and do a top notch job, they have an advantage over me by still living at home with their parents haha! Not my fault they work too cheap.


Thank you. Again, I'm not in the business to bid my subs work. I bid work at what I can do it for. If I can find someone cheaper. GREAT FOR ME!


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## bhock (Feb 17, 2009)

For your sake Kato I will keep fingers crossed for #3 also.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I have no intention of hijacking Kato's thread. I have too much respect for businessmen like him with high integrity. Night all!


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

Warren said:


> *I have no intention of hijacking Kato's thread.* I have too much respect for businessmen like him with high integrity. Night all!


It's a little late for that...


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Update - They finished in 9 days. HO says the job is an 8 out of 10. I'll see next time I'm down there. 

But that's pretty fast IMO. So that was 4 guys for 9 days. 36 man days for $10,000. If I take off 20% for the owner, that leaves $8333. for wages. That would then be $2083 each, assuming everyone is at the same rate. That works out to $231/day. They didn't say how long they worked each day.

At an 8 hr. day that's $29/hr. Not bad. But we'll see if the quality is there.


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## bhock (Feb 17, 2009)

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to the review!


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## THINKPAINTING (Feb 24, 2007)

CJA said:


> Agreed. I'm not arguing that fact. The fact is that I was unaware that those guys weren't his actuall employees until late in the job. I hired a contractor to do a job for me and veried their info. I was in contract with him to uphold the law on his part. If he failed to do so, that's on him. Either way I got a great job done for a very low price.


Yea and the guy is running a legit professional with legal employees gets screwed again. That's what killing the trades idiots low balling jobs using all illegals but hey they have liability insurance so the GC says hey not my problem. Why the trades have gone to sh*t


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## THINKPAINTING (Feb 24, 2007)

katoman said:


> Update - They finished in 9 days. HO says the job is an 8 out of 10. I'll see next time I'm down there.
> 
> But that's pretty fast IMO. So that was 4 guys for 9 days. 36 man days for $10,000. If I take off 20% for the owner, that leaves $8333. for wages. That would then be $2083 each, assuming everyone is at the same rate. That works out to $231/day. They didn't say how long they worked each day.
> 
> At an 8 hr. day that's $29/hr. Not bad. But we'll see if the quality is there.


 Its 2011 Contractors were getting $30 bucks an hr 20 yrs ago I mean come on after taxes , OH  It truly amazes me why all contractors think $30.00 an hr is good money running a business...


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

THINKPAINTING said:


> Its 2011 Contractors were getting $30 bucks an hr 20 yrs ago I mean come on after taxes , OH  It truly amazes me why all contractors think $30.00 an hr is good money running a business...


No, that's $30/hr. for the men. I also forgot, that includes the owners cost of the employee. So I suppose he's paying his guys around $20-22/hr.

That would be about right up here for "semi-skilled" men. By that I mean these guys, and I've seen lots of them, are basically brush and roller men. Not fully trained painters. 

This falls somewhere between new construction pricing and custom work. I would call it about "average". My painter would not do that job for that price. But I know new construction guys who would.

Apples and Oranges.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

katoman said:


> As I see it there are three possible outcomes here.
> 
> 1 - he finishes on time and the job is average quality. Or worse.
> 
> ...


And the winner is # 1 

I was at the job today and it's about what I expected. Sharp corners not sanded off. I could see where filler was either too much and not sanded down or where there wasn't enough.

Cutting in is about average. Walls did feel smooth so at least they sanded after primer. But looking down the walls I can see the butt joint taping. To me that means thin primer?

Anyway it's about average work. HO got what they paid for. He doesn't want to talk about it. :laughing:

And I'm not going to fix anything. :no:


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