# Where have all the Apprentices gone



## Bweikel (Feb 20, 2011)

I grew up around construction my great and grandfather laid wood floors around the northeast my uncle ended up building log cabins in north Carolina I ended up starting with my dad doing Metal framing and drywall ( pre illegals taking over the trade) and traveled around north and south Florida and the virgin islands doing resorts in captiva island fla my life changed when I meet a old 3 rd generation carpenter and his crew ( who were more like traveling gypsies but damn good carpenters) on a beach were I was to drop off materials for a rum hut they were building that's when my life changed he knew drywall was going into a mexican trade and asked me "do u want to be a dumb ass your life or do you want to learn something" I was pissed at first but have been watching him and his guys running cedar on the beach and wanted to be a part of the craft and brother hood they had and was so proud of so I took him on and no matter how hard he pushed I pushed back when he seen I had the same passion for the trade he and 3 generations of his family he had he didn't hold anything back as much as he knew he was willing to share and that changed my life I gave up the drugs that was involved in the old timers of the drywall trade and invested all my money into tools he took me around the country north to south east to west all the way to San Fran were we built a gas station and were my journey ended with him I stayed as the gypsies continued to travel but what I gained was a life time of friendship and knowledge I am here in Cali now with a contractor license and no one to pass on my craft to were have all the apprentices gone there's no one to pass on the craft to who cares about more than the money no one who wants the journey or feels passionate about the trade is everyone else in this position or is it because iam in the land of illegals I just want to pass on what I have been working so hard to learn


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Don't take this too personally but punctuation helps.

A period here. A new paragraph there.

Makes for a much better read.


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## Bweikel (Feb 20, 2011)

Yeah sorry about that writing from phone just being lazy


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

Im an apprentice.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

They're at the video arcade.


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## ROVACON (Apr 19, 2010)

Katoman said it perfectly. Kids these days care about X Box and Play Station (not that there is anything wrong with those systems.)

It is getting scary now because even trade schools are not producing a lot of skilled kids. A lot of them just attend for other reasons such as sports.

I had a buddy who graduated from a trade school with a diploma in carpentry and he couldn't lay out a wall to save his life.

My work load is getting heavier, especially in the next 8 weeks or so I am considering hiring a kid to co-op out of school part time. You better believe that I will put him to the test in the interview.

That's all I have to say about that. :furious:


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I've said this before - the average age of a skilled tradesman is 61. We are retireing.

Any young guys who want to make lots of money better get trained. Because there is going to be an even greater demand for skilled trades than there is now.

I'm actually telling some of my clients that if they are planning any major work done, they've got 10 years, then I'm out.

No joke. They know they can't get anyone else. That's truly sad. 

Opportunity awaits those who want it. :thumbup:


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

its not necessarily the kids fault either.


the schools are pushing kids away from trades....maybe recently there is this sudden realization, oh wait we need trades people.

However trades work is _"_low class work" the system tells kids if you dont go to university and get a desk job working for a bank you are worthless and contribute nothing to society. If you do work in the trades, you were probably to stupid for a desk job......laughable

There have always been disinterested teenagers, its the school system I blame.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

It's also societys' fault. Like you said, people see tradespeople as lower class.

That's one reason I push for licensing in all trades. Get some standards established, enforce them, and raise the bar. Then trades will become higher standard and higher paid.

The time is ripe for this. The public is going to be screaming for tradespeople. Who do they think will not only build new buildings, but renovate and repair the existing ones?

We need to push this whenever we can. Get rid of the hacks and undergrounders that are ruining the reputations of good tradesmen.

We have this to some extent in Canada, but it's not enforced. Thanks for reminding me, I'm going to stir up a sh!t storm over it. Just have to figure the best approach. 

MPP, media, the web?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Bunch of 'em are contractors here in glorious & bankrupt Calif.


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

good im glad all you old farts are retiring... j/k!! I just hope america doesn't become little Mexico and they completely take over all the fun work like framing, siding, and roofing. They can have the sheetrock though, but only if they do a good job. I see so much drywall that is hung and finished just sorry. I've heard through the wood work that qualified masons are getting harder to come by because no one is entring that trade. But I can't blame people for wanting a better life. If i was in Mexico with no work or food and America wouldn't let me in, I would run across the rio grande' also. Just as long as they call me PATRON im cool


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## Bweikel (Feb 20, 2011)

The thing is also you have guys like my dad who learned the drywall trait from the plaster days and has watched it go to crap there used to be a art to finishing and a since of pride I just hope 20 years from now the craftsmanship of the traits doesn't just disappear


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

punctuation over rated:blink:!


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

More work for me.


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## Sparxx (Feb 6, 2011)

in response to trades being "low class" (call it whatever you will)....
I have taken it upon myself to now shut off the individuals power (I'm a sparky) and walk away. I would love to see all trades take part too. Carpenters knock down a wall, take off a roof - whatever floats your boat...of course I'm kidding, but I'm sure people would learn really quick if we took back what we installed! 
I have heard some good things, but mostly derogatory. In a hospital I worked in; the staff posted a sign that read "absolutely no construction workers allowed in elevators or to be seen in cafeteria or common areas" ...yeah, WTF is that?! I witnessed a lady tear a strip off worker in an elevator - turns out he was a patient, just came from another site. Still, they requested he use the stairs!! Makes me sick.
When are people going to learn we're all in this together, our contributions are for the good of a community - not just ourselves. I completely agree ALL trades should be heavily schooled and regulated to produce and maintain a professional level of craftsmanship that is respected in every regard - education & work. 
No apprentices? Can you blame some kids when you see how many of a are viewed?


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

Bastien1337 said:


> its not necessarily the kids fault either.
> 
> 
> the schools are pushing kids away from trades....maybe recently there is this sudden realization, oh wait we need trades people.
> ...


bastien is right. everyone is supposed to goto college now. college is great for some and not so great for others. there are a lot of people who are good with their hands who are pushed into college because you need a degree to compete now. high schools have dropped shop classes, too, so there's less to encourage them to get into the manual trades. it's a serious problem here and we finally seem to be aware of it after 40% of our profits came from the financial sector and then everything blew up in 2007. hopefully we can get back on track.


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## DrewD (Jun 10, 2007)

As a man on the younger side my response is where are all the competent employers? I have such a hard time finding anyone who either wants to pay a decent wage or actually takes pride in what they build. So the sudden lack of apprentices may stem from a lack of sufficient builders. I would love to work for some of the skilled guys on here, but they seem to be few and far between.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

New residential construction where I live is mostly dominated by a certain nationality of _legal_ immigrants.

The workmanship is worse than crap and I don't even want to know what they pay. I go to open houses all the time to look around and the stuff you see in these brand new $850k homes makes me want to puke.

There are so many shortcuts and things that would never pass a _legitimate_ inspection that I end up getting pretty pissed.

Nobody can compete with these guys in price or (poor) quality. Let's just say that if I built it the exact same way, it wouldn't pass inspection.

I've decided I'm going to start taking photos and start an album just for open houses (of horror).

I think most apprentices here end up in commercial and high-rise construction because residential market is crap as noted above.


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

Winchester said:


> Most of the new construction where I live is done by east indians.
> 
> The workmanship is worse than crap and I don't even want to know what they pay. I go to open houses all the time to look around and the stuff you see in these brand new $850k homes makes me want to puke.
> 
> ...



My post here address' alot of this issue with my own experience in the union. Even guys who want to get into the trades are coming up against these walls. 

http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/mike-holmes-homes-69751/index10/#post1124979


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## Sasquatch (Mar 26, 2008)

Most work I see is done by real americans not illegals. Most people are detoured away because the market sucks right now. Its a big game of cutthroat. I'd be as happy as a fat kid in a donut shop if there was more work. I'd kill for a busy year again, no more hit and miss.


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

DrewD said:


> As a man on the younger side my response is where are all the competent employers? I have such a hard time finding anyone who either wants to pay a decent wage or actually takes pride in what they build. So the sudden lack of apprentices may stem from a lack of sufficient builders. I would love to work for some of the skilled guys on here, but they seem to be few and far between.


 
As a yonger person, myself. I agree with ya on this. I was lucky enough to get on with a great crew 3 years ago, and have learned a lot, and been given so many chances to excel. :thumbsup:


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## mschell (Nov 5, 2008)

There is a good book that examines the philosophy (and danger) behind pushing kids away from trades and toward colleges

"Shop Class as Soul Craft"

A pretty good read


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## Ben_G (Feb 1, 2011)

DrewD: I ditto your sentiments.

I want to learn the trade so bad, but I am having trouble finding an employer who:

A. Pays a decent wage.
B. Takes pride in his work. 
C. Sincerely wants to train an apprentice and pass on his knowledge. 

If there are any serious builders here located in the SF Bay Area looking for a serious apprentice, contact me. 

-Ben


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## DrewD (Jun 10, 2007)

I have to confess that while I love carpentry in particular, I have decided to change gears and will be getting a degree in Engineering Management. There is nothing I would love more than to be able to make a living with a toolbelt and hammer for the rest of my days, but I see so many guys barely scraping by now and the older guys well into there late 50's still working labor that I have chosen a different path. After college I have decided to go to law school, probably end up practicing construction law. For any new guy starting out today I don't know what advice I would give, I was lucky enough to find a decent job but I know those are long gone now. Look for anything you can get and when you get in work your ass from start to finish.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Ben_G said:


> DrewD: I ditto your sentiments.
> 
> I want to learn the trade so bad, but I am having trouble finding an employer who:
> 
> ...


Not saying there is anything wrong with wanting money. But it is interesting that particular requisite came first on the list.

I think this might give a little insight into the OP's question.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

Willie T said:


> Not saying there is anything wrong with wanting money. But it is interesting that particular requisite came first on the list.
> 
> I think this might give a little insight into the OP's question.


They all think they're worth more than anyone is willing to pay them.

I see a lot of that around :whistling


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

mschell said:


> There is a good book that examines the philosophy (and danger) behind pushing kids away from trades and toward colleges
> 
> "Shop Class as Soul Craft"
> 
> A pretty good read


ditto this. i've pitched it elsewhere on CT and it really is a good read and discusses this issue in depth along with some of the differences in blue/white collar work.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Bweikel said:


> Tart to finishing and a since of pride I just hope 20 years from now the craftsmanship of the traits doesn't just disappear


I've been blessed in learning a few things from the old school guys and your concern is a valid one.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Ben_G said:


> I want to learn the trade so bad, but I am having trouble finding an employer who:
> 
> A. Pays a decent wage.
> B. Takes pride in his work.
> C. Sincerely wants to train an apprentice and pass on his knowledge.


Ben,
You won't find that in a "builder". By far they're into "vomit construction"--just throwing things up. They do that because people will buy the units anyway. It's the subs you have to work for.
Unfortunately, most of those use mexicans for anything and everything and "burn through" people. 

If you try to get in with a good shop that doesn't do volume, rather quality, that would be a place to target. However, you have nothing to offer them at the moment.

Where you're going to learn a trade is by someone in A TRADE. You can become a "generalist" later, but in the mean time, you have to build up your vault of knowledge.

Find a trade you are actually interested in, start doing some reading about it, then visit those places, walk in and fill out an app, telling them you are interested in work.

As far as "decent wages", I guess it depends upon what you consider "decent". Most of the time you start off as a laborer, that means sweeping floors, hauling materials, setup/cleanup, etc. If you develop a track record of showing up all the time, being punctual, working hard and are interested in progressing, you'll gradually be given more things to do.
In the meantime, you should be educating yourself on your work on your off time.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

It may be a generational thing, but ya ever consider the US Navy Seabees?










They'll pay you as they train you. Oh, and feed and house you also.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

Bweikel said:


> were have all the apprentices gone


_they come in already knowing everything now.........
:laughing:_​


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Willie T said:


> Not saying there is anything wrong with wanting money. But it is interesting that particular requisite came first on the list.
> 
> I think this might give a little insight into the OP's question.





I'm a relatively young guy myself (35)

And I am debating getting my carp ticket as well.

Simple fact is, I can find work as an apprentice getting paid $20/hr (big company)

Or I can work on a framing crew. ($25-$28/hr)


Or run my own crew ($30-$40)
I have a family of 5 It's simple I CANNOT afford to take a monster pay cut.



Don't make the mistake of thinking I am a hack, or produce lousy quality. Quality is my biggest priority.

This is the honest truth. On the last house I framed, I had 
-clean inspection.
-siding crew phoned the builder and complimented the framing crew (me)
-The drywall crew commented to the P.M that the walls were incredibly square and he loved working behind this framer (me)

I'm not lazy, I work hard, I insist on quality.

I just can't afford to get my ticket, even though I'd like to.

I partnered with a journeyman for the last 2 years, (framing) And his comments to me were that I knew more and produced much more than many journeyman he had worked with.


Now why do kids not get into the trades? In my experience, a tradesman is considered a lower class than an office worker.

Society has pushed the university/office job route my whole life. 


I wish there were less tradesman around.
I wish there was a tangeable benefit to getting my carp ticket, but in reality, in my position it does nothing for me.


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## Westcoasting (Feb 21, 2011)

hughjazz said:


> I just can't afford to get my ticket, even though I'd like to.


Don't know if you are aware but you can also go in and challenge the Red Seal/Interprovincial test. Red Seal Carpenter opens up all the big companies from you to choose from too.


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## mattsk8 (Dec 6, 2009)

hughjazz said:


> Now why do kids not get into the trades? In my experience, a tradesman is considered a lower class than an office worker.
> 
> Society has pushed the university/office job route my whole life.


Who gives a crap what those people think anyhow. I'd (probably a thousand time over) rather knock a couple back w/ anyone on this board than spend a quick moment w/ someone like that!!

I'm 35 too. Hacks in this industry is nothing new. The first residential guy I worked for did remodels and additions. He had a crew of about 7 guys. He was a hack but he taught me the ins and outs of it all. 

The second guy I worked for taught me all about finish carpentry, hardwood floors, stair cases; and taught me to trust myself and quit being so afraid of trying something I haven't done before. Problem w/ him was that he was a drunk. I'd show up to jobs and he wouldn't get there till noon w/ a hangover a lot. We'd go to lunch and he was always drinking. Ended up cheating on his wife and loosing everything.

Seems like they were all capable, but they chose to screw it up for quick money or because they couldn't manage life. I think it just depends on how much *you* want it and what matters to you. I'd have a hard time sleeping if I knew something I made wasn't going to last and it made me furious when one of my subs did something halfassed. That didn't happen often because my regular subs knew that wasn't how I worked.

Yeah the pay sucks. I started at $10/hr doing commercial demolition. The remodel guy started me a $13. I thought I won the lottery when I went to $15. I used to watch the cabinet makers and subs show up in their new trucks and figured they must make at least $25/hr! At that time money like that was only a dream! All the while building my family w/ my beautiful stay at home wife; paying rent on a small 2 story in a decent neigborhood. 

I now have 4 kids; 11, 9, 5, and 3. And it seems like times were better when I was making $13/hr!

My main reason for saying all that is, don't be afraid to work for peanuts. If you really love doing it, it beats paying for school. Just continue to learn, grow, and do a good job. Before you know it you'll have a reputation for doing a great job and you won't have any trouble finding a job that pays well over $25/hr!!


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Sasquatch said:


> Most work I see is done by real americans not illegals. Most people are detoured away because the market sucks right now. Its a big game of cutthroat. I'd be as happy as a fat kid in a donut shop if there was more work. I'd kill for a busy year again, no more hit and miss.


 Another happy camper from the Gateway city eh? yeah things are pretty lousy around here. The only work I get is from former customers who know and like my work, any new bids I get way undercut on. I just can't roll the truck for peanuts. The mexicants aren't that much of a problem except in maybe roofing and landscaping around here, it also seems the union employers around here would rather hire more apprentices and leave the high payed journey's at the hall


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## PalmettoWandD (Mar 3, 2011)

I am 28 years old and I can I honestly say my generation is lazy as the day is long. They want to sit in an office and simply just do as little as possible. I have worked in the the trade of replacement windows, doors, siding and other exterior work since high school graduation and all the way through college. I have seen it in college, kids whom simply just want to do NOTHING but party and socialize. So I must say the apprentices are gonna be pretty scare from here on out. Atleast from my generation that is...


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## onthelevel (Apr 6, 2011)

People are brainwashed with this junk they see on tv. 95% of HO (99.9% where I live metro Detroit) wouldn't real quality it smacked them in the face and told them. All they want is cheap cheap cheap. Drywall is drywall or a door is a door. They are idiots. I'm really sick of it. All my mentor (who is 63 years old) and I do is complain about these people. They think everything should take a couple of hours. Will you be done today? Then they got the C&^J Bull*^%$ they sell at Blowes and The Hopeless Depot. Ive bought that junk and learned the hard way. Now I laugh when I see all the people buying poop there (95% is honestly pure poop). Like Homeowners want cheap cheap cheap. The other thing is people have no idea how hard it is to be a true professional and all the little things that go into it. Ive got a good degree. But my heart is in building especially renovation. Its an art. Way way way harder than some kid getting any degree whatever you want. You dont get good at this stuff quick. Do not care how smart or hard you work. College was easy as hell for me. Got really good grades, and didn't even go to class. Construction work as a PRO is HARD.


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## dibs16 (Nov 30, 2010)

PalmettoWandD said:


> I am 28 years old and I can I honestly say my generation is lazy as the day is long. They want to sit in an office and simply just do as little as possible. I have worked in the the trade of replacement windows, doors, siding and other exterior work since high school graduation and all the way through college. I have seen it in college, kids whom simply just want to do NOTHING but party and socialize. So I must say the apprentices are gonna be pretty scare from here on out. Atleast from my generation that is...


So true man. I'm 23, and all my friends sleep in work as little as possible and party as much as possile. I used to at least drink 1 night a week with them but now I never see them..except for the couple who help me out when I need a hand. I never sleep in and am always so worried about managing my time correctly and they don't have a care in the world. I'm a different breed.

Its weird because these are the same people who hire us everday because they don't know how to swing a hammer or hold a paint brush. And all this translating over to customers just looking at price and not worrying about quality.


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

Weird i didnt realize so many young guys were on here. I'll be 32 in august and figured i was one of the youngest. It makes me feel good theres young guys on here. I dont care who you are if you're willing to hang out in a place like this you're minds def in the right place to make things succeed in this business. I'll mention this place to other people sometimes and kind of get the are you sick in the head mentality. Like why would you wanna think about work when the day is over. 

And Matt i agree. i have 3 kids, 11,7,4 and been married 11 years. I wouldnt change anything, but it def was alot easier when i was making $10hr then it is now.


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## Bweikel (Feb 20, 2011)

Thanks everyone for there post on the subject it's one I take to heart.:thumbsup:

I agree with the op can't end my day after work just always think about it night and day. Nice to hear there are other young guys that feel the same way.


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## Dan_ (Jan 28, 2011)

As a 21 year old 2nd year apprentice, here in Newfoundland, I can tell you first hand that it's not schools, or video games but the contractors. You're lucky to find a journeyman who is willing to pay a decent wage these days. And if you do get lucky, you're hired on doing nothing but labour work, shoveling stone, sweeping, and hauling lumber. No journeyman wants to take time to teach a "young fella" what he needs to know. In my opinion the school isn't where you get your knowledge but the real school is on the job experiance. You learn probably 80% of what you need to know on the job. Very few experienced carpenters want to take the time to teach you, but would rather bawl at you because you don't know what your at or just put a shovel in your hand.
luckily enough I've found a dedicated journeyman who pays well(what i'm entittled to for my experiance/skill) and takes the time to show me how and why things are done.


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## Mike Carpenter (Apr 10, 2011)

The union, for a good wage?


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## Bweikel (Feb 20, 2011)

Mike Carpenter said:


> The union, for a good wage?


And what about those states that don't have unions?


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## Mike Carpenter (Apr 10, 2011)

Bweikel said:


> And what about those states that don't have unions?


I really do not know man, but young kids who do live in states with unions would be a fool not to join the union. You get to be taught in a classroom by master carpenters, get a college degree, health/dental insurance, and most importantly a pension.

EDIT: not to mention you learn ALL facets of carpentry in class, not just one or two categories.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Mike Carpenter said:


> I really do not know man, but young kids who do live in states with unions would be a fool not to join the union. You get to be taught in a classroom by master carpenters, get a college degree, health/dental insurance, and most importantly a pension.
> 
> EDIT: not to mention you learn ALL facets of carpentry in class, not just one or two categories.


EXACTLY. This is the problem in non-union. Companies are just not willing to offer the same. 

Another point is this training costs money. Who is paying for this? In union work ultimately it is the customer, who is either a large company or government. Not your average HO.

In fairness, generally speaking, union carpenters are working on non residential projects. Mr & Mrs home owner simply won't pay these rates.

Solutions? Suggestions? What if it were mandatory for all carpenters to have this training. Then they would all want par with union rates.

Then I suppose the HO would "do it themselves". I don't think there are any easy solutions. But I'm for mandatory trade certification. Get the hacks out of my trade.


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## Ianos (Sep 27, 2010)

*Were have all the apprentices gone*

Its not that they do not want to do apprenticships, in the local college last September 18 lads started 4 have already quit, one of the teachers said that it follows the same pattern and only about 8/12 will finish.
The nuber of students are getting smaller each year and the fall out is getting more.
Are they lazy, its not for them, or is someone telling them something in work about the building game that the teachers have not told them.
In 1977 there were 50 of us doing bricklaying only 1 quit, the quit rate is a hell of a lot higher now.
When i finished my trade i worked for a gang of bricklaying contractors from 1982 till i left in 1989 we had finished a house down in Tenby, the rates were £180.00 per 1000 face and £4.75 a metre paid solid.
Go and ask ask a young lad to do a rope pillar/twisted pillar ask bricklayers you know if they can do rope.


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## RhodesHardwood (Jun 28, 2010)

They all probably thought they knew it all and started their own half as*** businesses.


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## Carpenter Wayne (Dec 21, 2009)

They don't make "apprentice's" anymore from what I see/have seen over the last decade or so...

The problem 10 yrs back was a shortage of man power to build during the late 90s/early 2000s boom and so contractors hired any/every one at top dollar that they could just to have bodies on the jobs to try and keep up and/but didn't send any of them to an ABC/vocational training center like in prior decades for apprenticeships.

Now the problem is the exact opposite - kids are told that college is the only way to go so they shy away from the trades, and why not?? I mean these days if you don't already have 20 yrs experience in every aspect of the trades with every tool known to mankind, and a 30k pickup truck - no one will hire you for more than 9 or 10 $$ an hr

and so - with kids these days being unmotivated, lazy, and coddled like infants until 30 yrs old - why enter a trade that requires hard work through yrs of training/learning at starting pay equal to that of which they can get working at a video store or game center where they can sit on their azz'es all day playing games/having fun making about the same $$??

The trades need to offer MORE for those who are in them/dedicated to them and for those who wish to enter into them as a life long career... It's not only the kids/parents and societies faults that there's no interest in the trades anymore but also the contractors who charge $50 per man hr for labor yet only offer $10 or $12 per hr for pay, and that's for skilled guys in many cases (no wonder guys are also leaving the trades for other work)??

I'm glad I work for me/myself and I these days because I'm here to tell you - they can't offer me enough to work for a contractor in this day and age... When I left out on my own in 2001 - I was a steel stud framer/grid installer and drywall hanger/finisher making over $19 per hr with paid med, paid vacations, profit sharing, 401k, short term dissability, etc. which was top dollar in my area of the country at that time but these days?? Haha - good luck Charlie - no one is hiring "skilled" tradesman for anywhere near that pay scale in this area and the ones who are hiring are looking to pay $12/$13 per hr tops IF you have a few yrs exp. and they offer little to NO benefits = BITE ME!


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Going back down history lane, our country was built by immigrants. Now we are back where it started. Yes, there is an outgoing problem with illegals, but it is not theirs fault...if we had a s^*t life we would look for a better life for our kids and family, so we cannot judge anyone or the reasons them being here, unless we walked in their shoes...That is just an open mind thinking.

I have friends in this business who hired people in the past with no papers or with papers, as long as they're willing to work...first come first serve, they, they trained them, if they have no papers and the guy is worth the effort, they helped them obtain papers and some now manage crews, they do estimates, they do production work, and business never been so good. 

Now looking back, what they had before they hired "illegals"... they had guys who took this beautiful country and life for granted, they drink and they don't show up for work, they lose their drivers license and need to be picked up and after being replaced, they blame anyone who took their job... Who is to blame here?

There is also contractors and HO for that matter , who hire illegals in the street, bring them to HO's or own homes to do labor work, then this guys get hurt and sue, or the house gets robbed,or they damage something, and when it happens, everyone is pissed at the world... who is to blame here?

I personally don't give a sh^*t, because I am one man operation...or do I care who anyone hires, as long as my work gets done, and they do the work on the professional level and good worksmanship... I don't care if the guy is a bum who is doing this work, I pay money and I want the job done right...Period. 

As this illegal problem goes, again who is to blame here? Illegals who seek a better life or the politicians we vote for and put in the office? 

It is what it is my friends, it is 2011 and things are not the way they use to be...or will they ever be the same... we cannot ***** about it and drive ourself into a heart attack over these issues... We do what we always been doing, the best way we been doing it and face the reality... not to mention enjoying our hard earned money, is more fun then worry about this sh^*t, like anything will change :thumbsup:


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## NGHP (Oct 20, 2010)

It's just a very misguided and misinformed generation that is coming up. Kids have no desire to learn or to make anything of themselves, they simply want to creep through the system and take the path of least resistance. A good kick in the @$$ is all they need.


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## Fence (Mar 5, 2010)

Dan_ said:


> As a 21 year old 2nd year apprentice, here in Newfoundland, I can tell you first hand that it's not schools, or video games but the contractors. You're lucky to find a journeyman who is willing to pay a decent wage these days. And if you do get lucky, you're hired on doing nothing but labour work, shoveling stone, sweeping, and hauling lumber. No journeyman wants to take time to teach a "young fella" what he needs to know. In my opinion the school isn't where you get your knowledge but the real school is on the job experiance. You learn probably 80% of what you need to know on the job. Very few experienced carpenters want to take the time to teach you, but would rather bawl at you because you don't know what your at or just put a shovel in your hand.
> luckily enough I've found a dedicated journeyman who pays well(what i'm entittled to for my experiance/skill) and takes the time to show me how and why things are done.


they all went to work in alberta.


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

Fence said:


> they all went to work in alberta.


 
Truth. I bet there are more Newfies in Ft. Mac than Albertans...


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## Bweikel (Feb 20, 2011)

NGHP said:


> It's just a very misguided and misinformed generation that is coming up. Kids have no desire to learn or to make anything of themselves, they simply want to creep through the system and take the path of least resistance. A good kick in the @$$ is all they need.


Nice first post :thumbup: 

Welcome to CT. Try posting on the intro post and tell us a little about yourself.

"The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any." -- Alice Walker


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Im sort of an apprenctice:whistling


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## duckdown (Dec 16, 2008)

katoman said:


> That's one reason I push for licensing in all trades. Get some standards established, enforce them, and raise the bar. Then trades will become higher standard and higher paid.


Licensing when combined with enforcement will drive out the illegal crowd and drive up rates. If licenses also took into consideration criminal records, the rates would go even higher...


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## Just-K (May 19, 2011)

I am in a position of accepting $10-11 an hour in New Brunswick (not forever, but to get my foot in the door I'm willing to show these people what I'm worth) and still can't find anyone to take me on.. Every ad I see out here requires 5 yrs experience... I apply anyway and get no responses. 

I did apply and get into the union as well, but it seems like it may be forever until I get a call.

Not giving up tho. Ill get there eventually.


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## twill59 (Aug 14, 2009)

I think the way that the "hands on subs" structure their companies here in NWI is this way:

the union scale is about $33 / hr. So someone like my Brother in-law (Framer) charges between $30-35/ hr for his services.

NOW he has to include: His truck, fuel, tools, insurance etc etc etc. (no marketing). 

He is left w/ --what?--- $23 an/ hr to run his "business" which leaves him how much to pay labor? Forget work comp, he quit paying that yrs. ago...... no money left for it. Health insurance for his family????(That be you, me & society)

WHO IN THE H*LL CAN OPERATE A BUSINESS ON $23 / HR IN THE YEAR 2011?

The 1099 cheating roofers are even worse.........they have no clue what the numbers are, so how could they possibly set any kind of wage that would include any kind of bennies, or investment for training? 

The Rat Race, although aided & abetted by lousy schools, chitty governments and cheap customers, is largely the doing of lousy contractors, chitty contractors and cheap contractors.


(I had a customer recently who worked construction in college in the early 80's as a laborer. (Professor now) He made almost $20/ hr., then in Wash., DC. He shook his head in amazement that almost 30 yrs. later people are working FOR LESS...... in hard dollars)


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

Just-K said:


> I am in a position of accepting $10-11 an hour in New Brunswick (not forever, but to get my foot in the door I'm willing to show these people what I'm worth) and still can't find anyone to take me on.. Every ad I see out here requires 5 yrs experience... I apply anyway and get no responses.
> 
> I did apply and get into the union as well, but it seems like it may be forever until I get a call.
> 
> Not giving up tho. Ill get there eventually.


I've made this mistake before... but. New Brunswick, NJ, or New Brunswick, Canada?!

If it's Canada, St. John is pretty much a dead town. Moncton would be the best hope. Probably would have to learn some minor french, though.


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## fishertrapper (May 27, 2011)

Has anybody seen/read Mike Rowe's (host of Dirty Jobs) testimony to the US Senate Commerce Committee? He is pushing really hard right now to close the Skills Gap.

(I can't post a URL as a new member -- anybody else want to throw up a link to his speech??)

I couldn't agree with you guys (and Mike) more. Our foundation in the skilled trades is a huge part in what has made this country so great, and our recent divergence to a society where "higher education" is going to a university but trades studies are looked at as second or third place alternatives is what's going to bring this country down. Unless we can turn it around. 

America needs to take pride in its carpenters, plumbers, electricians, masons, etc if we want to regain our spot at the top of the world.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

fishertrapper said:


> Has anybody seen/read Mike Rowe's (host of Dirty Jobs) testimony to the US Senate Commerce Committee? He is pushing really hard right now to close the Skills Gap.
> 
> (I can't post a URL as a new member -- anybody else want to throw up a link to his speech??)
> 
> ...


there is 2 threads for that :whistling look in Politics and religion and gene discussion


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

DWB - right now, I am only Brutus The Good. Give me a month, then I'll be Brutus The Great :laughing:


hockeydman, well said. Other than that.... Jets suck, Go Habs Go!


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

Brutus said:


> DWB - right now, I am only Brutus The Good. Give me a month, then I'll be Brutus The Great :laughing:
> 
> 
> hockeydman, well said. Other than that.... Jets suck, Go Habs Go!


Jet's are actually only my second favourite team. I'm loyal to the team I cheered for when Winnipeg never had a team.... the Leafs. Didn't they play the Habs in the season opener? I must've missed it. How'd that one turn out? :thumbsup:


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

thehockeydman said:


> Jet's are actually only my second favourite team. I'm loyal to the team I cheered for when Winnipeg never had a team.... the Leafs. Didn't they play the Habs in the season opener? I must've missed it. How'd that one turn out? :thumbsup:



Oh.... you're one of them....


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

thehockeydman said:


> I believe the solution is to education the public on these very facts. Let them know about the shortage of skilled labour and that you can have a great career working in the trades.



mikeroweworks


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## detroit687 (Sep 4, 2008)

18withtools said:


> I go to a vocational program through my high school. It has been what's made school worth it. I have learned stuff that's useful, unlike sitting in math or science class were its all theory you will soon forget.
> 
> My highschool very much frowns upon the program for the working class. god forbid its not a desk job. Next year they are shutting down the construction trades program and replacing it with another graphic design class.
> 
> ...


Don't worry about being 18 with tools be 18 with brains and concentrate on your math and English class. 
I went to vocational class too in hs and then got into apprenticeship school and quickly learned what a joke vocational class was.
Learn the basic math now so you don't have to later. Because you will wish you did in advanced blueprints class laser level and transit and allot more classes
Unless you just want to be a body on the end of a hammer. Carpentry is math and if you want to be really successful at this business it has allot to do with how you express yourself in the English language.


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## hammerone40 (May 13, 2012)

Well said 687


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

Brutus said:


> DWB - right now, I am only Brutus The Good. Give me a month, then I'll be Brutus The Great :laughing:
> 
> 
> hockeydman, well said. Other than that.... Jets suck, Go Habs Go!


dont you mean Brutus the gigantic swollen ego


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## Cabstaler (Feb 4, 2013)

The problem with getting good apprentices is that when you do give them ajob, 80% of them have no work ethic. They want to text, instagram and Facebookall day and have no retention of lessons. My biggest phrase is to them is.Don't you remember what you did yesterday? Remember we did it like this? Thenthe big Ohhh Yeah pops out of their mouth. I personally believe it stems fromparents letting the schools raise their kid which in turn teaches the kids neitherethics nor conviction. 

The second underlying thing is China. They steal our Sh$!t and under cut ourwages with manipulated currency. We need a flat tax on all goods from China,but we owe them so much $ we dare not cross them at this point.


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## Cabstaler (Feb 4, 2013)

The problem with getting good apprentices is that when you do give them ajob, 80% of them have no work ethic. They want to text, instagram and Facebookall day and have no retention of lessons. My biggest phrase is to them is.Don't you remember what you did yesterday? Remember we did it like this? Thenthe big Ohhh Yeah pops out of their mouth. I personally believe it stems fromparents letting the schools raise their kid which in turn teaches the kids neitherethics nor conviction. 

The second underlying thing is China. They steal our Sh$!t and under cut ourwages with manipulated currency. We need a flat tax on all goods from China,but we owe them so much $ we dare not cross the at this point.


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## Cabstaler (Feb 4, 2013)

AGC has known for years....


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Started trade school yesterday.... Class of 9 kids.. lets just say if a few of the guys don't get serious and start doing the work, the future for young trades people looks bleak...


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

FramingPro said:


> Started trade school yesterday.... Class of 9 kids.. lets just say if a few of the guys don't get serious and start doing the work, the future for young trades people looks bleak...


Your discovering something all us seasoned guys know. Look around you, 3 of you may follow thru and carry on


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## hammer-head (Feb 5, 2013)

I hate to say it but I've stopped hiring apprentices.

As someone mentioned the work ethic is often times lacking, my last one said, after I gave him his morning list, "and what are you going to do?", that was pretty much it for me.

Now there four of us, with more than 60 years experience, not much we can't handle.

If I come across a kid who wants to work hard and earn his respect I may reconsider, but as it stands I couldn't be bothered.


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

My employer had me work for him for a year before he'd consider apprenticing me to be sure I'd be a good fit. I'm slated to go to school next month. There's a grant for getting top marks in the class. It doesn't sound like it'll be that hard to get.


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

Chris Johnson said:


> Your discovering something all us seasoned guys know. Look around you, 3 of you may follow thru and carry on


20% is the rate of those that follow it until the end here


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Its a class of 9....Man its kinda sad, some of the kids try and do well, but some are just there.... No wonder tradesman and trade schools get a bad rep.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

FramingPro said:


> Its a class of 9....Man its kinda sad, some of the kids try and do well, but some are just there.... No wonder tradesman and trade schools get a bad rep.


With only 9 "some" can't be that many


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> With only 9 "some" can't be that many


There is a few "decent" kids, and the others i would no trust to pick up sawdust..


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## Jaymz_23 (Sep 19, 2011)

FramingPro said:


> Its a class of 9....Man its kinda sad, some of the kids try and do well, but some are just there.... No wonder tradesman and trade schools get a bad rep.


Nick, are you in your 8 week apprenticeship block training? Or is it a year long "Carpentry Techniques" program at a local college? You said you were "Sort of" an apprentice


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Jaymz_23 said:


> You said you were "Sort of" an apprentice


He's confused:blink: last week he was pickle:no:
Look at him:whistling he's confused


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## CITY DECKS INC (Sep 4, 2012)

Winchester said:


> New residential construction where I live is mostly dominated by a certain nationality of _legal_ immigrants.
> 
> The workmanship is worse than crap and I don't even want to know what they pay. I go to open houses all the time to look around and the stuff you see in these brand new $850k homes makes me want to puke.
> 
> ...



i wanted to start a web page and call it don't buy this house .com. I would take pictures of all of the short cuts with flashing, poor house rap, stucco, waiting 3/moths before the tyvak get siding or worst stucco which is just all over the place and they slap right on the osb because the tyvak is shot. We are in the early stages of new boom and it's going to be a re-due of this past one. Get ready, buckle up it's coming on strong!


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Jaymz_23 said:


> Nick, are you in your 8 week apprenticeship block training? Or is it a year long "Carpentry Techniques" program at a local college? You said you were "Sort of" an apprentice


I am doing a co op program through school where i get my first year ticket in the end.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

FramingPro said:


> Started trade school yesterday.... Class of 9 kids.. lets just say if a few of the guys don't get serious and start doing the work, the future for young trades people looks bleak...


They all collecting unemployment, more money it this days.


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## CITY DECKS INC (Sep 4, 2012)

greg24k said:


> they all collecting unemployment, more money it this days.


aint that the trueth.....lollol!!!


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## DonMalo (Feb 22, 2013)

*right here*

I wish i could find a job with a guy like you, or even a job in Carpentry that pays halfway decent. Hard times are upon us my friend


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

DonMalo said:


> I wish i could find a job with a guy like you, or even a job in Carpentry that pays halfway decent. Hard times are upon us my friend


Stop writing in Red you will be mistaken as T&T:laughing:


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

Tomorrow....

We shall see what I have learned on with my apprenticeship...


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

damn well better become a jedi knight tomorrow or im stripping u of your stilleto and your going back to a estwing 6 0z til u pass


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Brutus said:


> Tomorrow....
> 
> We shall see what I have learned on with my apprenticeship...


Best of luck, you seem pretty smart so you should be fine.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

FramingPro said:


> Best of luck, you seem pretty smart so you should be fine.


...............................:whistling
.................
Yes good luck


...............


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## neill (Sep 29, 2011)

Brutus said:


> Tomorrow....
> 
> We shall see what I have learned on with my apprenticeship...


you're writing your interprovincial? good luck if that's the case. i'm sure you'll ace it.


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

neill said:


> you're writing your interprovincial? good luck if that's the case. i'm sure you'll ace it.


Yea man, just got back from it.

They say about 15 days until I hear anything. It was one of those stupid bubble sheets that they have to put through the computer.

It was challenging. I feel alright about my performance. Now time to play the waiting game...


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Well I'll give you an early congrats Brutus, it's been a long road getting this far


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

Thanks, Chris.

This waiting for results thing already sucks :laughing:


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## neill (Sep 29, 2011)

congrats in advance!

if memory serves me it took less than a week to get my results not 15 days.



Brutus said:


> Yea man, just got back from it.
> 
> They say about 15 days until I hear anything. It was one of those stupid bubble sheets that they have to put through the computer.
> 
> It was challenging. I feel alright about my performance. Now time to play the waiting game...


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## Jaymz_23 (Sep 19, 2011)

Brutus said:


> It was challenging. I feel alright about my performance. Now time to play the waiting game...


Aw the waiting game sucks! Let's play hungry, hungry hippos!


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

he`ll probably here back around wednesday or so. i found out the thursday afterwords


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

CITY DECKS INC said:


> i wanted to start a web page and call it don't buy this house .com. I would take pictures of all of the short cuts with flashing, poor house rap, stucco, waiting 3/moths before the tyvak get siding or worst stucco which is just all over the place and they slap right on the osb because the tyvak is shot. We are in the early stages of new boom and it's going to be a re-due of this past one. Get ready, buckle up it's coming on strong!


When my wife and I were looking at houses, one of them had an insane drop in the living room ceiling. Pointed it out to the agent and she played dumb of course. The entire ceiling must have been falling 2+ inches in the middle. I have no idea what kind of joists they used. Anyways, it was a nice house in a great neighbourhood so it sold quick, just can't believe someone would buy that house. But I guess most people wouldn't notice it. You had to be standing on the stairs and be at eye-level with the living room ceiling.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

heavy_d said:


> When my wife and I were looking at houses, one of them had an insane drop in the living room ceiling. Pointed it out to the agent and she played dumb of course. The entire ceiling must have been falling 2+ inches in the middle. I have no idea what kind of joists they used. Anyways, it was a nice house in a great neighbourhood so it sold quick, just can't believe someone would buy that house. But I guess most people wouldn't notice it. You had to be standing on the stairs and be at eye-level with the living room ceiling.


Post an introduction.
Who do you frame for?


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## Pennine Joinery (Jan 30, 2013)

Pretty hard you apprentises to get taken on here in the UK i get at least 2 emails a week asking if i would consider employing one. Truth is i just about find the work for my self without having somebody else to worry about.


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

Today was orientation day for first year carpentry. Trade math in the morning, blueprint reading/drafting before noon, and practical shop work in the afternoon. Between that and the distractingly (is that a word?) pretty girls all over campus it's going to be a busy 8 weeks.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

where is hell did Bwienkle go..thats what I wanna know..


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

I started union school today.. its gonna be a long, tough 2 months.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

Why 2 months? Thats how long it is?


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## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

FramingPro said:


> I started union school today.. its gonna be a long, tough 2 months.


What is Union school?


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

AirdrieHandyman said:


> What is Union school?


Carpenters union training centre, i am doing a specialized co op through school.
There is a three 8 week blocks of schooling as you go through the apprenticeship.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

Oh ok when im at school i see high school kids there sometimes.. i was gunna say only 2 months?? My programs 5 years!


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## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

Rich D. said:


> Oh ok when im at school i see high school kids there sometimes.. i was gunna say only 2 months?? My programs 5 years!


That's what I was thinking also. Mines 4 years but it isn't related to the union at all


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

FramingPro said:


> Post an introduction.
> Who do you frame for?


Framingpro. I work around Toronto too. I have been reading your posts for two plus years. For the second time, I did post an intro, look harderrrrr.

We are building a custom near eglinton and bayview at the moment.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

heavy_d said:


> Framingpro. I work around Toronto too. I have been reading your posts for two plus years. For the second time, I did post an intro, look harderrrrr.
> 
> We are building a custom near eglinton and bayview at the moment.


FramingPros famous:blink: I'll save the pic:whistling
He likes that post an intro stuff:clap:
I never look at the intro thread anymore:no:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

heavy_d said:


> Framingpro. I work around Toronto too. I have been reading your posts for two plus years. For the second time, I did post an intro, look harderrrrr.
> 
> We are building a custom near eglinton and bayview at the moment.


How long you been framing? Framing contractor in training, sounds alot like someone i know. :whistling
Whats the company you work for?


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## The Machinist (Mar 14, 2013)

I'm a machinist but I've always been interested in carpentry but where do I start? All the union apprenticeships are out of town and there's a waiting list. How do I go about finding a company that is willing to train someone new?


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

The Machinist said:


> I'm a machinist but I've always been interested in carpentry but where do I start? All the union apprenticeships are out of town and there's a waiting list. How do I go about finding a company that is willing to train someone new?


Drive around and ask?


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

FramingPro said:


> How long you been framing? Framing contractor in training, sounds alot like someone i know. :whistling
> Whats the company you work for?


We are a small outfit, we just got another guy to try out, so four of us now. In the year and a half Ive been with this guy its the biggest our crew has been. 

Been framing about 3 to 4 years but on and off because of college and trying other trades etc. Been going strong for 1.5 years now with no end in sight.

I live in Oshawa now but drive in to toronto every day. Up at 530, on the site at 720.


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## tistan (Mar 14, 2013)

The problem I have with teaching kids the trades, is the frustration of teaching basic math, physics, and logical thought processes that kids should have learned in high school. Kids are also are not taught at home the importance of doing a job right and taking pride in what you do no matter how insignificant the job seems. I am a trim carpenter, and I have found it is easier and faster to work by myself than to constantly have to try to teach simple concepts that some kid is going to forget the next day. If someone doesn't have a basic understanding of geometry, physics, and adding and subtracting fractions, there really is no way they are going to be capable of learning to be a good carpenter. I still work with the guy who taught me, but we both prefer to work alone. If he really needs my help, he will come get me, and I do the same with him. The difference of when I was taught, is that I understood how things went together. I grew up building model cars, and then I started building real cars and got into drag racing. I also made A's in math. When he explained things to me how things to put things together to last, I understood. We have a helper now that has worked with us for two years, we explain things to him that we have explained a million times, and he looks at us all dumbfounded. Even the other two carpenters that work with us don't understand the more advanced carpentry, and they both have 12-13 years experience. To tell the truth, they really don't even understand how to make a joint fit perfectly, nor could they build a cabinet from a set of drawings. 

The illegals have really destroyed the trade too, but luckily I have gotten far enough along in life that I am moving away from full time carpentry into flipping homes full time. Unless something is done about the illegals, I don't think that there is really much future in the construction trades because they have lowered the pay scales for construction workers. On my homes, I do all my own work because I refuse to pay for illegal labor. I also can do the kind of quality of work that I want and still make good money doing it.


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## Mavis Leonard (Mar 13, 2013)

tistan said:


> The problem I have with teaching kids the trades, is the frustration of teaching basic math, physics, and logical thought processes that kids should have learned in high school. Kids are also are not taught at home the importance of doing a job right and taking pride in what you do no matter how insignificant the job seems. I am a trim carpenter, and I have found it is easier and faster to work by myself than to constantly have to try to teach simple concepts that some kid is going to forget the next day. If someone doesn't have a basic understanding of geometry, physics, and adding and subtracting fractions, there really is no way they are going to be capable of learning to be a good carpenter. I still work with the guy who taught me, but we both prefer to work alone. If he really needs my help, he will come get me, and I do the same with him. The difference of when I was taught, is that I understood how things went together. I grew up building model cars, and then I started building real cars and got into drag racing. I also made A's in math. When he explained things to me how things to put things together to last, I understood. We have a helper now that has worked with us for two years, we explain things to him that we have explained a million times, and he looks at us all dumbfounded. Even the other two carpenters that work with us don't understand the more advanced carpentry, and they both have 12-13 years experience. To tell the truth, they really don't even understand how to make a joint fit perfectly, nor could they build a cabinet from a set of drawings.
> 
> The illegals have really destroyed the trade too, but luckily I have gotten far enough along in life that I am moving away from full time carpentry into flipping homes full time. Unless something is done about the illegals, I don't think that there is really much future in the construction trades because they have lowered the pay scales for construction workers. On my homes, I do all my own work because I refuse to pay for illegal labor. I also can do the kind of quality of work that I want and still make good money doing it.


thy needto strtyoung no video gmes algbra adntrigonmry


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

I'm almost at the end of my second week at school and I definitely needed a refresher in math. Once I went over it though it all came back. We use both the imperial and metric systems in construction in Canada so knowing how to convert between the two is a must.

I'm ashamed to admit I've never handled a hand plane before now but we have to build our projects out of hand tools so I'm getting pretty decent with a jack plane.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Youngin' said:


> I'm almost at the end of my second week at school and I definitely needed a refresher in math. Once I went over it though it all came back. We use both the imperial and metric systems in construction in Canada so knowing how to convert between the two is a must.
> 
> I'm ashamed to admit I've never handled a hand plane before now but we have to build our projects out of hand tools so I'm getting pretty decent with a jack plane.


Hand planes and tools like that are obsolete... don't be ashamed.. they teach us about tools that are 100's of years old... never to be seen on site.
The math... we cannot use calculators... i don't get why they have us dividing 6 digit numbers... if its that big, you can't mess up so just calc it.


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

25.4 mm = 1 inch

Learn to appreciate the math. There is a method to the madness.

No construction master on the exam, either.

Learn the slope-gain factor. I had to get extra help to figure that one out. But it sure comes in handy.


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## Mavis Leonard (Mar 13, 2013)

brutus said:


> 25.4 mm = 1 inch
> 
> learn to appreciate the math. There is a method to the madness.
> 
> ...




.03937


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

Oh lord tunderin'.


We got got ourselves a Newfie, b'ys....

Welcome buddy. Any questions about the apprenticeship program, just ask. There's a few of us on here that have recently finished it.


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## CanningCustom (Nov 4, 2007)

I kind of figured you'd be the one to do that Brut


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Brutus said:


> Oh lord tunderin'.
> 
> 
> We got got ourselves a Newfie, b'ys....
> ...


Man this place makes my do a lot of goggling :wallbash: First Newfound Land now Newfie, b'ys :surrender:
So Brutus:blink: this Canada place?? I know this Quebec is a French settlement. So is each area of the east part settled with different people? You in Halifax Nova Scotia :blink: are a Scott? Nova Scotia = New Scotland:blink: I see you're on an island smaller than Japan. You are in a coastal city? Then you be eating a lot of good fish :chef:


fftopic: fftopic:


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## davidchaulk (Feb 28, 2013)

There's loads of good fish around here for sure!

Hahah, I was waiting for the Newfie jokes - bring 'em on. 

Newfoundland is an interesting place - each town has it's own dialect and tradition. You only have to go a couple miles and it's like you're talking to people of a different province.


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Man this place makes my do a lot of goggling :wallbash: First Newfound Land now Newfie, b'ys :surrender:
> So Brutus:blink: this Canada place?? I know this Quebec is a French settlement. So is each area of the east part settled with different people? You in Halifax Nova Scotia :blink: are a Scott? Nova Scotia = New Scotland:blink: I see you're on an island smaller than Japan. You are in a coastal city? Then you be eating a lot of good fish :chef:
> 
> 
> fftopic: fftopic:



Nova Scotia is no island. It's a peninsula. There's a small part of land that connects us to the rest of it. A big portion of the province is an island, though. The top part, Cape Breton, is only connected by a small 1/4 mile long, 2 lane bridge. Nova Scotia is New Scotland, I am not a scot, though. I am German/English. :laughing: I'm sure our heritages here are as mixed as yours in the US. There are a bunch of people with Mc or Mac at the begining of their last names, here. Less than 1 million people in the province, with about half of them living withing a 45 minute radius of me.. I don't like fish, and actually don't know many people who are actually from here that are bat-chit crazy about it. I can bring you to a place where the two piece fish and chips feeds at least two, and the fish comes right off the boat and into the kitchen. I know lobster fishermen, who will get you fresh lobster for 3$/pound.

Newfie is slang for someone from Newfoundland. The slang for me would be Bluenoser (after the famous ship from here). 

b'ys is just the phoenetic way of spelling the way some Newfies pronounce boys. It is used in the same way "guys" or "buddy" would be used.

If you want to understand us, you should read this

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-vice-guide-to-speaking-like-a-maritimer-


:laughing:


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## CanningCustom (Nov 4, 2007)

Brutus said:


> Nova Scotia is no island. It's a peninsula. There's a small part of land that connects us to the rest of it. A big portion of the province is an island, though. The top part, Cape Breton, is only connected by a small 1/4 mile long, 2 lane bridge. Nova Scotia is New Scotland, I am not a scot, though. I am German/English. :laughing: I'm sure our heritages here are as mixed as yours in the US. There are a bunch of people with Mc or Mac at the begining of their last names, here. Less than 1 million people in the province, with about half of them living withing a 45 minute radius of me.. I don't like fish, and actually don't know many people who are actually from here that are bat-chit crazy about it. I can bring you to a place where the two piece fish and chips feeds at least two, and the fish comes right off the boat and into the kitchen. I know lobster fishermen, who will get you fresh lobster for 3$/pound.
> 
> Newfie is slang for someone from Newfoundland. The slang for me would be Bluenoser (after the famous ship from here).
> 
> ...


Haha that was awsome explanation b'y!


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## CanningCustom (Nov 4, 2007)

David ya a lot of work down by the kipper b'y? Ok I'm done


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

You east coasters are a strange lot alright. The fact I'm originally from Vancouver Island has nothing to do with that.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Youngin' said:


> You east coasters are a strange lot alright. The fact I'm originally from Vancouver Island has nothing to do with that.


B. can be a bit strange at times:blink: Fish are his friends not food:whistling


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## ENDGRAIN (Apr 14, 2013)

Well, Back to the apprentice topic. 
I'm 21 and a first year apprentice carpenter with 1922 hours. I just moved from Winnipeg, MB, to Toronto, ON. I have 1.5 years experience in framing conventional and timber framing. I took a union job last year in August and finally was able to start my apprenticeship there. I installed steal doors and frames, built a few door bucks for bricky's, formed a few pads, and built parapets. 

So now I'm here in Toronto looking for a job that is going to pay a decent wage, Ideally with the union because that's who I started my apprenticeship with (im on the call ist with the local 27). Its only been just over a week but I've applied for quite a few jobs and went to some union sites looking for work. I thought trades were in demand but it kinda seems like you gotta know someone to get a gig here.

I hope i dont come off as a whiny apprentice, i just want put in the hours build and learn the trade that ive come to really enjoy all aspects of and make a decent living

Any advice or info is greatly appreciated. 

Thanks


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## CanningCustom (Nov 4, 2007)

ENDGRAIN said:


> Well, Back to the apprentice topic.
> I'm 21 and a first year apprentice carpenter with 1922 hours. I just moved from Winnipeg, MB, to Toronto, ON. I have 1.5 years experience in framing conventional and timber framing. I took a union job last year in August and finally was able to start my apprenticeship there. I installed steal doors and frames, built a few door bucks for bricky's, formed a few pads, and built parapets.
> 
> So now I'm here in Toronto looking for a job that is going to pay a decent wage, Ideally with the union because that's who I started my apprenticeship with (im on the call ist with the local 27). Its only been just over a week but I've applied for quite a few jobs and went to some union sites looking for work. I thought trades were in demand but it kinda seems like you gotta know someone to get a gig here.
> ...


I have a buddy who has a union framing crew. I'll call him and ask if he is looking.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

It's picking up out here and the union apprentices are having daily job calls. The 40%ers are in high demand.


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## ENDGRAIN (Apr 14, 2013)

Thanks guys. I still haven't found anything but it seems like its really picking up. Any other suggestions? I'm still just going head out to job sites first thing in the morning with my tools and see if they'll take me on. Also what do you mean by 40%ers?


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

ENDGRAIN said:


> Thanks guys. I still haven't found anything but it seems like its really picking up. Any other suggestions? I'm still just going head out to job sites first thing in the morning with my tools and see if they'll take me on. Also what do you mean by 40%ers?


Are you with local 27?


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## ENDGRAIN (Apr 14, 2013)

FramingPro said:


> Are you with local 27?


Ya I am. Why do you ask?


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

ENDGRAIN said:


> Ya I am. Why do you ask?


Just curious.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

*Re: Things I Hate *


FramingPro said:


> Union carpenters attitudes





FramingPro said:


> Are you with local 27?





ENDGRAIN said:


> Ya I am. Why do you ask?


*Re: Things I Hate *


FramingPro said:


> Trade unions





FramingPro said:


> Just curious.


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## steex (Feb 19, 2013)

He's got the system down pat. If you can save yourself just ten minutes of prep time every day and just get right to the hating, think how much that adds up to over the course of a year.


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

Bastien1337 said:


> My post here address' alot of this issue with my own experience in the union. Even guys who want to get into the trades are coming up against these walls.
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/mike-holmes-homes-69751/index10/#post1124979


i have to disagree with you been in the union in pittsburgh for a while and have only built a few scaffolds for my own acces to some very high ceilings. maybe toronto is different, but they have taught me alot. I have never touched any formwork, besides in my appreticeship classes.


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

Winchester said:


> New residential construction where I live is mostly dominated by a certain nationality of _legal_ immigrants.
> 
> The workmanship is worse than crap and I don't even want to know what they pay. I go to open houses all the time to look around and the stuff you see in these brand new $850k homes makes me want to puke.
> 
> ...


in all honesty your right its the difference between 12/hr and 30/hr. not to mention alot of residential contractors are fly by nights that dont pay you at the end of the week. not saying that it does not happen in commercial, but its less common


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