# This isn't sheetrocking.....



## D.E.P.S. (Aug 3, 2013)

Did the walls come down with some sort of disease, or were they attacked with a blister agent?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> The bad this is the telephone and cable tv outlets don't come in 'jumbo' or 'mid-size'.
> 
> And if you put ONE on, you need to put them on ALL the devices just to make it look consistent. Over-size plates stick out like Justin Beiber's weenie in jail.


They do, they come in decora style and you can use magnum plates of required.


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## CostelloBuilds (Sep 10, 2013)

I think I've hired that crew before (or at least a close second to them). They came with references and argued that it was just a couple small imperfections and I was too picky. My own guy just did a similar job and is currently arguing that I'm too picky, WTF is wrong with guys these days?!?!


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Unacceptable


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

I don't think that was a drywall man that hung it or the finishing work......................that's a home owner/ DIY /they call that saving $$$$:thumbsup:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

HEY!!! I did the best I could while I was drunk and high on crack. It was night and I was wearing sunglasses. I plugged my rotozip into a 220 outlet and it got a little frisky on my. Not my fault.


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## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

Kent Whitten said:


> What in hell is that crap sprayed all over the wall for?


Thats so the tapers dont have to do a nice job :laughing:


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## Lanya LaPunta (Oct 31, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I don't think they make 'em THAT big!


You custom make 'em out of luan, sometimes cardboard.

Keeps the classy look of that sprayed finish!


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

icerock drywall said:


> I don't think that was a drywall man that hung it or the finishing work......................that's a home owner/ DIY /they call that saving $$$$:thumbsup:


Yep! :thumbsup:


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Golden view said:


> That's some ugly texture too, while we're on the topic.


Called orange schpiel.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Oh, is that what they're talking about when they "texture" walls on my wife's DIY shows?
Never seen that before, textured ceilings sure, textured walls not so much. Looks awful, pretty freakin glad we don't have that here


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

I would just leave and come back when it's fixed. 

They will take your plates off, patch and paint with the devises there. Make a mess of the devises and at least lose some of the screws if not all. Then where are you?

Work when it's ready.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

When you are doing a textured surface, there is really no excuse to not fix any deficiencies. That's the one time that you don't have to finish and smooth it off perfectly for your repairs.


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

How in the hell does it ever get that bad? 

How can you not realize that work sucks? 

What is wrong with people?


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

JR Shepstone said:


> How in the hell does it ever get that bad?


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

shanekw1 said:


> That looks like when my left handed coworker used to try to use the rotozip.


On behalf of left handed people I resent that remark.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

SuperiorHIP said:


> On behalf of left handed people I resent that remark.


He used to blame everything on being left handed. I think he was trying to get out of doing certain things.


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## mski (Apr 4, 2013)

CarpenterSFO said:


> I'm blaming it on the GC. It looks to me as if the sheetrock was put on and textured before the boxes were put in, then the electricians (or maybe the GC's FNG) hacked the holes for the boxes. After the boxes were installed the painters sprayed.


You're joking right?

You can see where the rotozip chewed up the boxes.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> I'm blaming it on the GC. It looks to me as if the sheetrock was put on and textured before the boxes were put in, then the electricians (or maybe the GC's FNG) hacked the holes for the boxes. After the boxes were installed the painters sprayed.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I was able to swing my hammer and drive the nails on the box with the drywall in the way. 

Are you serious?!?!?! :blink: Stop and think how stupid that would be.


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## FRAME2FINISH (Aug 31, 2010)

The worst thing I ever seen was a homeowner did his own electrical but wanted me to trim it out.

My buddy was the builder and said yea have fun ,
Well the rocker was finished and they felt he did a bad job, do called me to fix it!!

I wasn't there 5 minutes and told the dude you got bigger problems than that!!

He placed all his boxes on the stud where the door jamb was!! Doh where does the trim go!!!

We


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Cut hole. Grab wire in wall pull through hole. Pull wire into box. Nail box to stud.
> 
> Not rocket science to see how it could be done.


I've seen it done exactly as Rob says, and it can be done cleanly, too.

Edit: I've seen a couple large remodels done by a guy in L.A. entirely that way. NM was left looped over a nail at each outlet, drywall hung, then boxes put in afterward. And no, I don't know how it ever got inspected.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> I've seen it done exactly as Rob says, and it can be done cleanly, too.


It can be done easily and cleanly but that does not change the fact it's both stupid and inefficient.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> It can be done easily and cleanly but that does not change the fact it's both stupid and inefficient.


Agreed.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Separate question from the rotozip fiasco. Around here new boxes have to be no worse than 1/4" out of flush with the finish surface. Are those boxes adjustable? Add extensions? Different rules?

- Bob


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

There is no way to install a nail on box _*properly* in walls that have already been sheetrocked._

_Cut in box, piece of cake._


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

SamM said:


> Wow. When I first learned to use a rotozip, no one bothered to tell me how to use the stupid thing. My first box looked better than those.
> 
> I must say I love the un coated drywall screws. *It'll be a great help in hanging pictures, you'll always know where the stud is*


Only if they bothered to use a stud to hang the drywall.....:clap:


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## endo_alley (Apr 9, 2013)

That's how they cutout sheetrock penetrations south of the border.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Separate question from the rotozip fiasco. Around here new boxes have to be no worse than 1/4" out of flush with the finish surface. Are those boxes adjustable? Add extensions? Different rules?
> 
> - Bob


Bob... And doesn't that apply only to SR/non flamable... otherwise flush???? I'll bet they just are plain out of code.

But in a pinch, without a remodel box, I've put the box in after the rock... I never nailed it.... just predrilled and used screws.....

Somewhere I saw/read, that someone is making a remodel box (not the winged/eared kind) with an angled nail guide molded in the box for application after rock..... supposedly for application when you are unsure of the final wall depth (maybe wavy framing or afterfinish not determined as yet or tieling ?) and can't set the box 1/2 out from framing....

Guess it's less expensive than the adjustable depth boxes..... never seen it in a supply house/store as yet.....

Best


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

kevjob said:


> You are a troll, you have been since you joined. :thumbup:
> 
> you want to fight and argue with everyone to show how superior and moral you are. :laughing::no:


TNT is right. I pulled the wires but was not smart enough to put boxes up during rough-in.

So I bashed out a couple square feet of drywall next to the stud, nailed on my boxes, made everything up, did a half-ass job patching the drywall that I ruined, and waited for it to be taped, textured & painted.

Once that was done, I came along with a zip router, chewed up my boxes, textured and painted it all to make it look like someone _else_ fûcked it up, and took photos of the resulting fiasco in hopes of covering my äss.


Maybe TNT, with _his_ enormous, self-righteous ego, should give classes to all of us on how to do things right since he's the only one who does. Hell, he can't even figure out he's been called a troll.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

480sparky said:


> TNT is right. I pulled the wires but was not smart enough to put boxes up during rough-in.
> 
> So I bashed out a couple square feet of drywall next to the stud, nailed on my boxes, made everything up, did a half-ass job patching the drywall that I ruined, and waited for it to be taped, textured & painted.
> 
> Once that was done, I came along with a zip router, chewed up my boxes, textured and painted it all to make it look like someone else fûcked it up, and took photos of the resulting fiasco in hopes of covering my äss.


The urge to confess...


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Bob... And doesn't that apply only to SR/non flamable... otherwise flush???? I'll bet they just are plain out of code.
> 
> But in a pinch, without a remodel box, I've put the box in after the rock... I never nailed it.... just predrilled and used screws.....
> 
> ...


Yep, otherwise flush. I haven't seen those new boxes.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

480sparky said:


> TNT is right. I pulled the wires but was not smart enough to put boxes up during rough-in. So I bashed out a couple square feet of drywall next to the stud, nailed on my boxes, made everything up, did a half-ass job patching the drywall that I ruined, and waited for it to be taped, textured & painted. Once that was done, I came along with a zip router, chewed up my boxes, textured and painted it all to make it look like someone else fûcked it up, and took photos of the resulting fiasco in hopes of covering my äss. Maybe TNT, with his enormous, self-righteous ego, should give classes to all of us on how to do things right since he's the only one who does. Hell, he can't even figure out he's been called a troll.



Sounds plausible


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

kevjob said:


> You are a troll, you have been since you joined. :thumbup:
> 
> you want to fight and argue with everyone to show how superior and moral you are. :laughing::no:


So what is this post? Pot calling the kettle black? Carpenter made the statement, not me. I just agreed and defended his statement after sparky all but called him stupid.

If you want to kiss sparkys arse go right ahead. 

This has nothing to do with morals just sticking up for a fellow member. Why is it that people who don't like me personally are so blinded by their hate that they can't see the world around them.

And it's obvious that you don't read 90% of my posts. If I were just a troll the mods would have perm ban me a long time ago.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> It can be done easily and cleanly but that does not change the fact it's both stupid and inefficient.


Totally agree.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> TNT is right. I pulled the wires but was not smart enough to put boxes up during rough-in.
> 
> So I bashed out a couple square feet of drywall next to the stud, nailed on my boxes, made everything up, did a half-ass job patching the drywall that I ruined, and waited for it to be taped, textured & painted.
> 
> ...


I never said you did it, just that I have seen it done.

I also never said it was the right way, just that I have seen it done that easy. You just got your panties in a twist because carpenter didn't know you did the electric. You also think I think you did that. Chill out, just because I would cross the street to give you a glad of water if you were on fire doesn't mean that I think your a hack. Far from it.

I actually respect your knowledge, just not delivery. 

And didn't I quote your troll comment? That should have been a clue that it was meant for me. My defense statement was solely directed at carpenter's first post. I almost said something when carpenter owned it, letting him knew our was meant for me.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

480sparky said:


>


:blink: F me!!!:laughing: WOW! Your plates are too small???:laughing:


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

blacktop said:


> :blink: F me!!!:laughing: WOW! Your plates are too small???:laughing:


Or crooked enough.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

FRAME2FINISH said:


> The worst thing I ever seen was a homeowner did his own electrical but wanted me to trim it out.
> 
> My buddy was the builder and said yea have fun ,
> Well the rocker was finished and they felt he did a bad job, do called me to fix it!!
> ...


5" flat casing with box extensions for that "custom" look.


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## FRAME2FINISH (Aug 31, 2010)

Nope thought of that, it would of made more work for me so I told the Ho , do it right he's got to live there not me!!

The next fiasco was the oak stairs I built them, when I was done they looked awesome,

It was late Friday and she said they will look good white with a dark stain on the treads!!

I laughed thinking she was joking and left, came back Monday morning to see the crappiest paint job I've ever seen!!

I was so pissed I refused to do anymore work and left!! They asked why I was so mad, you painted oak!! It could of been plywood making it not only cheaper but easier as well!!!


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

I wasn't be serious about that. Generally we block out all boxes near openings so that there is room for wide casing.


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## FRAME2FINISH (Aug 31, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> I wasn't be serious about that. Generally we block out all boxes near openings so that there is room for wide casing.


Oh that's what he said for me to do cut all his outlets into the trim lol


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

blacktop said:


> :blink: F me!!!:laughing: WOW! Your plates are too small???:laughing:


Just kidding ! That's total hack work!!!


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## smeagol (May 13, 2008)

Looks like he tried to router them clockwise.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

smeagol said:


> Looks like he tried to router them clockwise.


Looks like he took a wild guess on where they were!!!!:laughing:


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

FRAME2FINISH said:


> Oh that's what he said for me to do cut all his outlets into the trim lol


:laughing:


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## endo_alley (Apr 9, 2013)

After looking at the photos, I assume that the boxes were buried. And that during electrical trim out the electrician went looking for his missing outlets. Or told the drywaller to go looking. I always spray paint the subfloor under each ceiling can, outlet , wire, or any penetration prior to sheetrock install. That way we can find buried stuff. Usually the electrician can remember how high above the subfloor stuff was installed. Right after sheetrocking, but before taping I do a walk through with the electrician and low voltage/ security guy (if different) to find anything that might be buried and take care of it early on.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Those boxes were not buried, you can see that the fuzz is painted, and mesh , like someone tried to patch:blink:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

endo_alley said:


> After looking at the photos, I assume that the boxes were buried. And that during electrical trim out the electrician went looking for his missing outlets. Or told the drywaller to go looking. I always spray paint the subfloor under each ceiling can, outlet , wire, or any penetration prior to sheetrock install. That way we can find buried stuff. Usually the electrician can remember how high above the subfloor stuff was installed. Right after sheetrocking, but before taping I do a walk through with the electrician and low voltage/ security guy (if different) to find anything that might be buried and take care of it early on.


Here we go again. You are stepping in the sane pile carpenter did. Sparky didn't hack the drywall. Look at the pics and you'll see that it was painted after the cut out. I doubt he cut it out, left, and came back later to trim out.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

iDAHOchris said:


> Those boxes were not buried, you can see that the fuzz is painted, and mesh , like someone tried to patch:blink:


Beat me to it.


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## endo_alley (Apr 9, 2013)

Then, with that big opening around the box, why is there no splatter texture on the outsides of the outlet boxes?


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

endo_alley said:


> Then, with that big opening around the box, why is there no splatter texture on the outsides of the outlet boxes?


There is wall color paint on the insides and the wires.


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## endo_alley (Apr 9, 2013)

My dear Mr. Watson ! So it seems that the holes may have been cut after texture and before paint! How curious. Obviously, the butler did it.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Check the pics again. I can clearly see mud on the boxes in all pics. The reason there is none on the wires is because someone masked them by stuffing paper in the hole. I have seen many boxes cut in after the fact and those ones are not . Electricians dont use routers


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

All you Sherlock Holmes claiming the boxes were cut in after rhe rock are snuffin' up the wrong butt.

Seriously? Y'all think I ran the wires, then came back after the rock..... and THEN cut the boxes in?

Christ, some of you are as dumb as a box of rocks. You think any electrician that does that would be in business long?

Holy Mother of God.... the idiots are out of their cages today.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

480sparky said:


> All you Sherlock Holmes claiming the boxes were cut in after rhe rock are snuffin' up the wrong butt.
> 
> Seriously? Y'all think I ran the wires, then came back after the rock..... and THEN cut the boxes in?
> 
> ...


You just love to do extra work for the hell of it, cutting in boxes for an entire house is easy right?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> All you Sherlock Holmes claiming the boxes were cut in after rhe rock are snuffin' up the wrong butt.
> 
> Seriously? Y'all think I ran the wires, then came back after the rock..... and THEN cut the boxes in?
> 
> ...


...


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> All you Sherlock Holmes claiming the boxes were cut in after rhe rock are snuffin' up the wrong butt.
> 
> Seriously? Y'all think I ran the wires, then came back after the rock..... and THEN cut the boxes in?
> 
> ...


I think they think it's possible that electricians can be dumb just like drywallers can be. You are taking this thread way too personal.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

480sparky said:


> All you Sherlock Holmes claiming the boxes were cut in after rhe rock are snuffin' up the wrong butt.
> 
> Seriously? Y'all think I ran the wires, then came back after the rock..... and THEN cut the boxes in?
> 
> ...


It's very clear to see what happened !


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

The hangers were hacks ....And the finishers never bothered to patch a damn thing! Those boxes were in stalled before drywall! 
But from what I can tell ...The hangers didn't nick any wires!:thumbup:


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I looks like they didn't bother to measure where the boxes were, and guessed by the bump in the drywall. Maybe?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

jlsconstruction said:


> I looks like they didn't bother to measure where the boxes were, and guessed by the bump in the drywall. Maybe?


If the taper was too lazy to spot those two screws or patch those boxes that clearly needed patching !!!!! Then I'm willing to guess the hangers Didn't have much pride in the work they do either. 

I LOVE these guys JLS! The more of them the better!!:laughing:


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

The phone line is questionable, there may be a couple nicks ... they did manage to rout out the threads on the box in pic 4:clap:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

iDAHOchris said:


> The phone line is questionable, there may be a couple nicks ... they did manage to rout out the threads on the box in pic 4:clap:


I guess they just don't know the meaning of detail.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I think they certainly know the meaning of "pass me a rock and that pipe"


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

It's actually pretty sad that it was allowed to make it to paint stage let alone plug, switch and plate. If this is a Builder/GC project, there is really no excuse for any of this.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

I just read 6 pages of this chit and not one of you figured-out what happened here. It’s clear to me that the framing was done after drywall/finish/texture and paint!

Mystery solved! It’s not the hangers fault – the framing was put in the wrong place.

I’m losing faith in you guys calling yourself “Pros”. 

MTN REMODEL you seriously “just predrill and use screws”? We just use Velcro!

Move on fellas, there’s nothing to see here!


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I can just see the converstaion

GC calls boarder while driving around doing not too much

"So everything go good with the boarding?, Oh good...Ok well I'll settle up with you as soon as I get paid. Couple weeks max"

Few days later GC calls taper from wherever he's been having breakfast for the last 3 hours

"So everything go good with the taping? Oh good, Yeah I'll catch up with you later to pay you, couple weeks...max"

Couple days later GC calls Sparky

"Everything go good with the fixtures? No??? Well this is the first I'm hearing about it
I'm going to have to get to the bottom of this. You're going to have to wait to get paid til i can sort this out...couple weeks max"


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## DMJCarpentry (Jan 6, 2014)

They got paid for that!!??


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## endo_alley (Apr 9, 2013)

I just happened to check in on this thread. I didn't realize people had such an emotional investment in the comments. I apologize in that I wasn't accusing anybody of anything. How do I know who cut out the boxes? Why would I care? I was just stating the obvious. That there didn't appear to be splatter texture on the inside of the wall cavity. That stuff seems to go everywhere you don't want it to go. So if the claim is made that there were really bad hangers and finishers. But really good laborers doing the masking; well, sounds good to me. End of story and onto better stuff.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> It’s clear to me that the framing was done after drywall/finish/texture and paint!


How do you do that? The texture in the boxes tell the whole story. 
I'm confused ...Are you sayin the boxes were placed after the board was hung/finished and tex/paint?


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm still trying to figure out how 480 knew it was a USG product.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

FRAME2FINISH said:


> ...
> He placed all his boxes on the stud where the door jamb was!! Doh where does the trim go!!!


Unless the casing is going to be wider than 4", isn't that pretty much what everyone does? (This assumes a king _and_ a jack.)


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

txgencon said:


> Unless the casing is going to be wider than 4", isn't that pretty much what everyone does? (This assumes a king and a jack.)



I agree with you, but I'm guessing no jack. We always put a scrap chunk of 2 by where we want the box, just to move it a little bit away from the door incase they ever go with bigger casing, and the sparkies know what side to put the box on


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

txgencon said:


> Unless the casing is going to be wider than 4", isn't that pretty much what everyone does? (This assumes a king and a jack.)


We always add a 2x4 block to move it over a little bit.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Since I'm usually the GC _and_ the electrician, I know ahead of time what casing is planned. I have had some clients who wanted a receptacle right in the corner. I will double block those out of the corner.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

jlsconstruction said:


> ... We always put a scrap chunk of 2 by where we want the box, just to move it a little bit away from the door incase they ever go with bigger casing, and the sparkies know what side to put the box on


You have had problems with your sparky putting the box in the doorway?


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

blacktop said:


> How do you do that? The texture in the boxes tell the whole story.
> I'm confused ...Are you sayin the boxes were placed after the board was hung/finished and tex/paint?


Have you not seen the new studs available? They’re toothpick size – hold then where you want them and add water – Bam instant stud :thumbsup:

I was hoping I didn’t need to identify the post as humor – apparently I needed to.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

txgencon said:


> You have had problems with your sparky putting the box in the doorway?


No, but on the wrong side of the door. Them thinking a right hand door is going in, and really a left is. I envy you guys they get to work off of prints all the time. 75% or the remodel work we do has no prints


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> Have you not seen the new studs available? They’re toothpick size – hold then where you want them and add water – Bam instant stud :thumbsup:
> 
> I was hoping I didn’t need to identify the post as humor – apparently I needed to.


Really?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

jlsconstruction said:


> No, but on the wrong side of the door. Them thinking a right hand door is going in, and really a left is. I envy you guys they get to work off of prints all the time. 75% or the remodel work we do has no prints


Municipalities dont require plans? Or you in the county?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

dom-mas said:


> Hey Blacktop. How long have they been stapling (metal) corner bead on? I've seen screws obviously and the crimping sort of tool, but a taper had a compressor out today and was stapling corner bead. Never seen that before


I used a P/C bammer staple gun for a few years before I switch mainly to paper face...The bammer worked well enough...I tried a bostich air stapler
It took way too many staples . Imo any fastener applied to wood will back out due to green wet/ timber . The less fasteners applied to drywall the better off you are ! That's why we glue and screw ONLY where needed. Yes I know about the codes for drywall ...But just because 'it's code'
Don't mean it's done right!


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

dom-mas said:


> Do you mud them on or use spray adhesive?


I mud them on with a wool roller. http://www.georgeadavistools.com/drywalltools/cornerrollers.html


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

blacktop said:


> I mud them on with a wool roller. http://www.georgeadavistools.com/drywalltools/cornerrollers.html


Never tried the spray glue on the P/F Dom-mas But I have a few cans of trim-tex adhesive laying around I may half to give that a try! I don't see why It wouldn't work!


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

It's all I'd seen except for remodels since maybe 2005. Until today


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

blacktop said:


> Never tried the spray glue on the P/F Dom-mas But I have a few cans of trim-tex adhesive laying around I may half to give that a try! I don't see why It wouldn't work!


From what i understand you have to be quick...but i don't know to many boarders or mudders who aren't.


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