# The switch to electric vehicles.....



## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Golden view said:


> The green argument aside, I like the concept of charging at home, never pulling into a gas station. No oil changes. No transmission fluid. Brakes every 200,000 miles.


Or you can also keep it "topped off" by plugging it in at the customers house when you get to the job:whistling


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

I'd like a plain ol gas truck for long trips (hunting, road trips, etc) and an electric van. I haven't driven over 80 miles on a work day in the last 4 years.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

That’s why I really thought the concept of the Chevy volt was truly revolutionary however It never really took off

It’s basically an electric car with a gas back up motor


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## shanewreckd (Oct 2, 2014)

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/

:whistling


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## duburban (Apr 10, 2008)

https://www.bollingermotors.com


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## duburban (Apr 10, 2008)

And for anyone that hasn’t seen this kid:







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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Looks like he had a lot of fun.:thumbsup:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

duburban said:


> And for anyone that hasn’t seen this kid:
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=glovTK7J2Tw
> 
> ...


When I was his age I had a 20 year old Volkswagen that I worked my ass of to afford repairs gas and insurance. This kid just buys a P100D and guts it....

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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> When I was his age I had a 20 year old Volkswagen that I worked my ass of to afford repairs gas and insurance. This kid just buys a P100D and guts it....
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


Maybe his dad doesn't know he's driving it....


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## duburban (Apr 10, 2008)

I think that by having this discussion on contractor talk without a majority of out-right dismissal we are well on our way all electric. 


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

duburban said:


> I think that by having this discussion on contractor talk without a majority of out-right dismissal we are well on our way all electric.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Everyone on this forum has gone from laughing at cordless tools to almost using them exclusively. I don't think anyone would have more faith in batteries than those who work in construction. It has outright changed the way we work.

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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Inner10 said:


> Everyone on this forum has gone from laughing at cordless tools to almost using them exclusively. I don't think anyone would have more faith in batteries than those who work in construction. It has outright changed the way we work.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk




That’s a good point 

Things change quickly, look how advanced our phones have become in the past decade 




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## RichVT (Feb 28, 2009)

Interesting article about the effects of heat and cold on electric vehicles:

https://www.northernnewengland.aaa....wsletter040119&cid=999999536549120&jid=309341

I didn't realize there was such a penalty in cold weather. It gets a lot colder than 20 degrees here in the winter.


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## SPG (Mar 9, 2017)

That's a good point about the cold/hot weather penalty, but a lot of it also avoidable if you park in a garage or don't run the heater at 75+ degrees for the whole trip. The penalty isn't that bad if you don't factor running the heat/ac.


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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

Not sure if this has been brought up but some issues with electric. 
#1 cold climate like Alberta.they are useless. was -40c and at 80km that's -67c with the wind chill. No friggin way an electric is going to last in that. 
#2 majority of are electricity is from fuel sourced power plants. gotta get the power from some where and it ain't green. 
#3 They can hardly keep up with the demand on rare elements in batterys. we don't have enough resources on the planet to make ever car electric. we just have to many. 

in time... need more advances in batterys. 
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## JFM constr (Jul 26, 2014)

as a hunter imagine being that quiet .no noise .i was thinking ATV cannot be far away .imagine popping in two dewalt batteries and racing off in a silent atv . 

a use a box truck and i see they'll have vehicles like UPS use coming out late this year or next .this has potential .solar panels on top to catch a little extra juice .


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

JFM constr said:


> as a hunter imagine being that quiet .no noise .i was thinking ATV cannot be far away .imagine popping in two dewalt batteries and racing off in a silent atv .
> 
> a use a box truck and i see they'll have vehicles like UPS use coming out late this year or next .this has potential .solar panels on top to catch a little extra juice .


Fuso has the ECanter, the distance is pretty weak on a big truck but they are being used now for delivery trucks. I think they go 70 miles...


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## JFM constr (Jul 26, 2014)

https://workhorse.com/pickup/ and https://workhorse.com/ngen .the first link is the pickup .second is the smaller van . says 80 miles and something about on board generators ,what ever that means . guess we have a ways to go before they are worth the jump over .next is the cost of solar panels dropping down .


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

cedarboarder said:


> Not sure if this has been brought up but some issues with electric.
> #1 cold climate like Alberta.they are useless. was -40c and at 80km that's -67c with the wind chill. No friggin way an electric is going to last in that.
> #2 majority of are electricity is from fuel sourced power plants. gotta get the power from some where and it ain't green.
> #3 They can hardly keep up with the demand on rare elements in batterys. we don't have enough resources on the planet to make ever car electric. we just have to many.
> ...


Even if they solve the battery issues (a big one is just like tools... making it affordable to have back-up batteries already charged), I think there's going to have to be some major improvements to the electrical grid before it mainstreams...


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

This reminds me. I bought one of those great LiIon jump packs. Forgot and left it in the car when it was double digit cold.

It makes a good paperweight now.


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## SPG (Mar 9, 2017)

cedarboarder said:


> #1 cold climate like Alberta.they are useless.


...and they're not selling a whole lotta parkas in Honolulu. Right now electric vehicles still work in cold climates, just with less range.


cedarboarder said:


> #2 majority of are electricity is from fuel sourced power plants.


Depends on where you live. Most of ours is hydro here in the PNW and places like TX are getting a lot more wind turbines going. Over time there will be more renewables than fossil fuel plants.



cedarboarder said:


> #3 They can hardly keep up with the demand on rare elements in batterys. we don't have enough resources on the planet to make ever car electric.


Nah, they've got enough and those materials can be recycled. It's kinda hard to recycle gasoline and eventually we will run out of oil while the sun will keep shining. 

It's a little too easy to poopoo electric vehicles when we're used to gassers, but all these problems can be overcome. If you were to really look at it objectively, like someone just dropped in from space and was given the options: Fuel from dead dinosaurs that is explosive, limited availability and highly polluting vs free energy from the sun, wind, and moving water...which do you think would really make more sense? We're just used to rolling around with a tank full of explosives which is the only reason we still do it.
BTW, I don't have an electric vehicle. I drive everywhere in a full size gas guzzling pickup like most of us because it's what works right now. If I could trade it for an electric (and put some panels on my roof) and still get the work done I would do it in a heartbeat. We're not quite there yet, but I think/hope we'll be getting close in a few years.


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## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

SPG said:


> ...and they're not selling a whole lotta parkas in Honolulu. Right now electric vehicles still work in cold climates, just with less range.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Cold has more effects than range. Lithium batteries can’t change below a certain temp. 

The main idea with electric cars is you plug them in everywhere you go to have the range you need. If the battery can’t charge because it’s cold that’s a big issue


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Windmills are unrealistic and that's not including the environmental aspect of it. 

How many windmills does it take to meet the power needs of a typical city, much less New York City?

At www.scitizen.com, Kurt Cobb worked the numbers. Generously, he presumed the windmills would use 5-megawatt turbines - generating three times the output of a typical 1.5-megawatt turbine. He compared that with a 500-megawatt fossil-fuel (coal) power plant needed to power a city of 300,000 people. A typical power plant, he noted, would cover 300 acres, but use only 30 of those for the actual facility.

Cobb calculated it would take 233 5-megawatt wind turbines to equal the coal plant's output, since the wind doesn't blow constantly. Each would need to be spaced 2,065 feet away from the others (five times the diameter of their 413-foot rotors). Adding the rotor diameters to the spacing requirement equates to a 110-mile long line of windmills, half a mile in width.

It comes to 55 square miles. That's to provide electricity for a town of 300,000 people.

New York City has 8.1 million residents. Manhattan Island totals 23 square miles. So, based on Cobb's calculations, it would take six and a half Manhattan Islands, each covered totally with windmills, to power one-tenth of New York City. And if standard 1.5-megawatt wind turbines were used, they would take three times more space.

Mayor Bloomberg's vision is flawed. But it's typical of the pie-in-the-sky energy "solutions" suggested by those who would rather "go green" than "get real."(Bloomberg looks positively reasonable compared to the Australian engineer who proposed a giant helicopter carrying wind rotors 15,000 feet into the sky, and sending back electricity through a tether wire super-sized extension cord!)

Going back to Kurt Cobb's calculations, if we wanted to meet the electric needs of 300 million Americans rather than only 300,000, we'd need a half-mile swath of windmills, each of them hundreds of feet high, 110,000 miles long, crisscrossing the continent 40 times between New York City and Los Angeles.

That's a lot of land to condemn. The cost would be in the hundreds of billions of dollars, since each large windmill costs millions.

https://www.heritage.org/environment/commentary/hot-air-about-wind-power


Mike.
_______________


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Wind turbines also are killing huge numbers of birds and haven't had the environmental scrutiny that conventional energy systems have had. If anyone is really concerned about the environment then they should be concerned about the rush to push these monstrosities. 

For now natural gas power plants are the most economical and clean way to go and since we're blessed with the largest natural gas reserves in the world it's a very clean and affordable bridge to carry us until truly clean energy sources come online.

Electric vehicles will come on more and more as battery technology advances although I've heard there are some real concerns about high speed crashes and electric vehicles.


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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/thorium-energy-solution/

I'm going to copy paste because not simple to explain...
Uranium is used to fuel the world's nuclear power plants, but a vocal segment of the scientific community claims that it's too dangerous and rare a chemical to sustain that role for much longer. In the feature-length documentary*Thorium: An Energy Solution, they make the case for a much more efficient and sustainable answer to our energy needs.

This argument is led by Kirk Sorensen, a former NASA aerospace engineer, who has long championed the adoption of thorium as a solution to the growing energy crisis. The film presents highlights from a series of rapidly edited lectures led by Sorensen and others. During the course of these speaking engagements, they bemoan the drawbacks of current nuclear-powered technologies, and enthusiastically promote the ways in which*thorium could transform the future of our civilization.

The science is vast, and difficult for the layperson to grasp at times, but the overarching message is well articulated and clear. In a world of dwindling resources, and ongoing concerns over the safety of nuclear power, the film contends that thorium could be our last great hope.

Even though officials seem largely oblivious to its potential applications today, thorium's viability as an unlimited nuclear fuel was first discovered in 1942. Its advantages should be much clearer to us now, especially in the aftermath of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster in 2011, which resulted from the damage inflicted by a devastating tsunami, or other incidents and close-calls that have occurred throughout recent history.

Thorium is*more abundantly available than uranium. When used as a fuel to power nuclear energy, it requires no water for cooling, doesn't require pressure for its operation, is non-combustible and won't expel toxic waste should plant malfunction occur. Sorensen makes a persuasive and impassioned case for a safer and more sustainable nuclear energy infrastructure driven by the use of liquid-fluoride thorium reactors. Reliance on this method, he argues, will produce greater reserves of power at a much lower cost than wind and solar.

It's a great doc. 

https://terrapower.com/




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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

SPG said:


> ...and they're not selling a whole lotta parkas in Honolulu. Right now electric vehicles still work in cold climates, just with less range.
> 
> Depends on where you live. Most of ours is hydro here in the PNW and places like TX are getting a lot more wind turbines going. Over time there will be more renewables than fossil fuel plants.
> 
> ...


They are crap in the cold. less range? I need to get to work not half way to work, they simply don't work in extreme temps. 

Doesn't change the fact that the majority of are power is from natural resources.

I gotta disagree, just isnt enough .With over a billion vehicles on the planet your talking 10s of BILLIONS of large battery's. With the life time of the batteries and recycling that number is even higher.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

The writings already on the wall:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...40-electrified-vehicles-by-2022-idUSKBN1F30YZ


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## SPG (Mar 9, 2017)

Stunt Carpenter said:


> Cold has more effects than range. Lithium batteries can’t change below a certain temp.
> 
> The main idea with electric cars is you plug them in everywhere you go to have the range you need. If the battery can’t charge because it’s cold that’s a big issue


So when you get a flat tire do you throw away the whole vehicle? Of course not. When you have a problem you think up a solution. 
Just off the top of my head, and I'm not an engineer or EV advocate but just a dumb nailbanger... You could park in a garage overnight to keep your battery above freezing. The carmakers could insulate the batteries, develop a battery heater, combine a smaller gas engine that can charge and heat the battery, provide a swappable lead acid battery pack for winter use, and I'm sure they've got better solutions than that since it's actually their business and they're working on it 24/7.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Kind of reminds me of the digital watch. Every IC manufacturer it seems decided it was a market they wanted to be in. Almost all lost their butts.

What happens when supply outstrips demand, and China is a fast follower in developing the technology? What happens to conventional efficiency if the development money is shifted to electric?


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## SPG (Mar 9, 2017)

Calidecks said:


> Windmills are unrealistic and that's not including the environmental aspect of it.
> How many windmills does it take to meet the power needs of a typical city, much less New York City?


It would also be ludicrous to power the whole world with hamster wheels. How many wheels? How many hamsters? How long can a hamster run before another hamster has to take its place? OMG!! Soooo many hamsters!
There's a lot of power generating options. They all have their pros and cons and a big con for the coal and oil burners is pollution and environmental destruction. I kinda like the environment so I prefer to keep it cleaner. You know what's a really cheap power source? Hydro. Also happens to be pretty clean too. Doesn't work in the dessert of course and I don't recall seeing any waterfalls in Manhattan but the eastern grid gets quite a bit from Niagra Falls. Wind is a good source too. So is solar. So is tidal. You combine all of these and you get a redundant power source that doesn't depend on just one element. We still have nuclear plants, gas, and even coal in the mix for the NY area but eventually that's going to shift more to renewable sources. 

But back to windmills...


Calidecks said:


> That's a lot of land to condemn. The cost would be in the hundreds of billions of dollars, since each large windmill costs millions.


Have you ever seen what mountain top removal looks like for coal mining? You ever see what happens to the streams? The retention ponds? Total devastation on a biblical scale. 
Then you get the coal and burn it pumping out pollutants that shorten everyone's lifespan. Calculate that cost.
Natural gas fracking has it's own issues with water supplies that get contaminated. Calculate that cost. 
Oil drilling. Same thing and has the Gulf really recovered from the last spill yet?

If you look in the areas of Europe where they get a lot of wind power, the turbines are often off shore where you can't even see them from land and the wind is constant. No people are being displaced. 

For the record, I'm not a Greenieweenie. I drive a gas guzzling truck. I build stuff and that means I'm responsible for cutting down a heck of a lot of trees and paving a bunch of roads, but I get it...we can and should do a little better. It's not going to be perfect, but it can be better. I still remember what it was like to drive through NYC on a hot summer day in the 70's...it was horrible! The exhaust fumes would choke you and your eyes would burn and it was hazy and gross. We've come a long way since then and I wouldn't mind us taking it a little further. 

Wind isn't the only answer. Electric cars aren't the only answer. They're all just little parts and pieces that can make it work a little better for some of us in some situations. I'll probably still have my same truck for a few years but when it's time for a new one I'd love to have the option of an electric or hybrid so I'm not pissing away $100/week for gasoline.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Then there's this 

If hydrocarbons are renewable- then is "Peak Oil" a fraud?
http://321energy.com/editorials/bainerman/bainerman083105.html



Mike.
_______________


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Calidecks said:


> Then there's this
> 
> If hydrocarbons are renewable- then is "Peak Oil" a fraud?
> http://321energy.com/editorials/bainerman/bainerman083105.html
> ...


Is the "peak oil" argument still around? I thought that was based on the old paradigm, like before the quantum leaps in exploration and recovery technology. (eg. fracking)


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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

SPG said:


> So when you get a flat tire do you throw away the whole vehicle? Of course not. When you have a problem you think up a solution.
> 
> Just off the top of my head, and I'm not an engineer or EV advocate but just a dumb nailbanger... You could park in a garage overnight to keep your battery above freezing. The carmakers could insulate the batteries, develop a battery heater, combine a smaller gas engine that can charge and heat the battery, provide a swappable lead acid battery pack for winter use, and I'm sure they've got better solutions than that since it's actually their business and they're working on it 24/7.


what do you plan on using to heat this garage with?
you idea is to have a gas engine to heat the batterys while it's parked or driving in the cold. counter productive no doubt

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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

cedarboarder said:


> what do you plan on using to heat this garage with?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


geothermal


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

cedarboarder said:


> what do you plan on using to heat this garage with?
> you idea is to have a gas engine to heat the batterys while it's parked or driving in the cold. counter productive no doubt
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


It still might be worthwhile..or not. Problems are addressed, numbers are crunched to see if it works, and we all move along. We solve problems all the time.


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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

MarkJames said:


> geothermal


still doesn't help the car work in the cold. Can heat it for days but once you open that door to use it doesn't matter how warm the battery is.
Every job site will need a geo thermal garage. 
every camp ground will need a geo thermal garage.
every store will need a geo thermal garage.
so now we are talking huge geo thermal power plants. big risks of earthquakes in some or most power hungry regions. its not realistic


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

How dangerous is nuclear power?

Truth: Nuclear energy is as safe or safer than any other form of energy available. No member of the public has ever been injured or killed in the entire 50-year history of commercial nuclear power in the U.S. In fact, recent studies have shown that it is safer to work in a nuclear power plant than an office.

If it was really able clean air we'd just go nuclear.

But the environmental religion won't accept it. 

There is no solution for huge amounts of nuclear waste being generated.

Truth: All of the used nuclear fuel generated in every nuclear plant in the past 50 years would fill a football field to a depth of less than 10 yards, and 96 % of this “waste” can be recycled [5]. Used fuel is currently being safely stored. The U.S. National Academy of Sciences and the equivalent scientific advisory panels in every major country support geological disposal of such wastes as the preferred safe method for their ultimate disposal[6].

Myths About Nuclear Energy

# 1: Americans get most of their yearly radiation dose from nuclear power plants.

Truth: We are surrounded by naturally occurring radiation. Only 0.005% of the average American’s yearly radiation dose comes from nuclear power; 100 times less than we get from coal [1], 200 times less than a cross-country flight, and about the same as eating 1 banana per year [2].

# 2: A nuclear reactor can explode like a nuclear bomb.

Truth: It is impossible for a reactor to explode like a nuclear weapon; these weapons contain very special materials in very particular configurations, neither of which are present in a nuclear reactor.

#3: Nuclear energy is bad for the environment.

Truth: Nuclear reactors emit no greenhouse gases during operation. Over their full lifetimes, they result in comparable emissions to renewable forms of energy such as wind and solar [3]. Nuclear energy requires less land use than most other forms of energy.

# 4: Nuclear energy is not safe.

Truth: Nuclear energy is as safe or safer than any other form of energy available. No member of the public has ever been injured or killed in the entire 50-year history of commercial nuclear power in the U.S. In fact, recent studies have shown that it is safer to work in a nuclear power plant than an office [4].

# 5: There is no solution for huge amounts of nuclear waste being generated.

Truth: All of the used nuclear fuel generated in every nuclear plant in the past 50 years would fill a football field to a depth of less than 10 yards, and 96 % of this “waste” can be recycled [5]. Used fuel is currently being safely stored. The U.S. National Academy of Sciences and the equivalent scientific advisory panels in every major country support geological disposal of such wastes as the preferred safe method for their ultimate disposal[6].

# 6: Most Americans don’t support nuclear power.

Truth: In a survey conducted in September 2016, it was found that 75% of Americans feel nuclear energy will be important in meeting the country’s future electricity needs, and 45 % believe this importance will increase with time. In addition, 80% of respondents favor renewing operating licenses for nuclear power plants that continue to meet federal safety standards. Also, 68% believe that nuclear power plants operating in the United States are safe and secure.

# 7: An American “Chernobyl” would kill thousands of people.

Truth: A Chernobyl-type accident could not have happened outside of the Soviet Union because this type of reactor was never built or operated here. The known fatalities during the Chernobyl accident were mostly emergency first responders [8]. Of the people known to have received a high radiation dose, the increase in cancer incidence is too small to measure due to other causes of cancer such as air pollution and tobacco use.

# 8: Nuclear waste cannot be safely transported.

Truth: Used fuel is being safely shipped by truck, rail, and cargo ship today. To date, thousands of shipments have been transported with no leaks or cracks of the specially-designed casks [9].

# 9: Used nuclear fuel is deadly for 10,000 years.

Truth: Used nuclear fuel can be recycled to make new fuel and byproducts [10]. Most of the waste from this process will require a storage time of less than 300 years. Finally, less than 1% is radioactive for 10,000 years. This portion is not much more radioactive than some things found in nature, and can be easily shielded to protect humans and wildlife.

# 10: Nuclear energy can’t reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

Truth: Nuclear-generated electricity powers electric trains and subway cars as well as autos today. It has also been used in propelling ships for more than 50 years. That use can be increased since it has been restricted by unofficial policy to military vessels and ice breakers. In the near-term, nuclear power can provide electricity for expanded mass-transit and plug-in hybrid cars. Small modular reactors can provide power to islands like Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Nantucket and Guam that currently run their electrical grids on imported oil. In the longer-term, nuclear power can directly reduce our dependence on foreign oil by producing hydrogen for use in fuel cells and synthetic liquid fuels.

http://nuclearconnect.org/know-nuclear/talking-nuclear/top-10-myths-about-nuclear-energy


Mike.
_______________


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

cedarboarder said:


> still doesn't help the car work in the cold. Can heat it for days but once you open that door to use it doesn't matter how warm the battery is.
> Every job site will need a geo thermal garage.
> every camp ground will need a geo thermal garage.
> every store will need a geo thermal garage.
> so now we are talking huge geo thermal power plants. big risks of earthquakes in some or most power hungry regions. its not realistic


Global warming to the rescue...


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

cedarboarder said:


> https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/thorium-energy-solution/
> 
> I'm going to copy paste because not simple to explain...
> Uranium is used to fuel the world's nuclear power plants, but a vocal segment of the scientific community claims that it's too dangerous and rare a chemical to sustain that role for much longer. In the feature-length documentary*Thorium: An Energy Solution, they make the case for a much more efficient and sustainable answer to our energy needs.
> ...


I've heard about the Thorium alternative also, sure sounds like it would be worth doing some and see where it would go. 

It's very likely the fusion reactor problems are going to worked out in the next 20-30 years if we don't derail our economy by short sighted feel good demands that aren't practical or economical. 

There really isn't a crisis, the continual lurch from one crisis to another is designed to keep everybody in a state of anxiety and befuddlement.

There also is no such thing as 'settled science' and anyone who goes around calling people who have doubts as to the seriousness of climate change a denier is a zealot who is worshiping at the altar of the religion of rabid environmentalism.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

The thorium reactor partially solves the problem of proliferation. The reactors could be used in any country without great weapons concerns.

The rest of it amounts to claims that, if it's technically and economically viable, it will be a better long term solution.

So far, there is no indication there is such a solution zone.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

On the 'leaps in technology' issue, there was a dude on Coast to Coast last night who was discussing the re-invigoration of the space program since it's been privatized. I guess Elon Musk's company SpaceX has just tested a super large rocket? 

This man was claiming that things are moving so rapidly that it will be practical to have manned moon bases in about 5 years. When the lady interviewer asked him why anyone would want to have a manned presence there he had some really interesting reasons. 

Among them were with no air there is no distortion and with modern camera and software technology one could do lens arrays that would be the equivalent of a kilometer in width which he said would be large enough to see activity on planets around other stars.

He also was touting moon tourism as the price of getting into space plummets. He was saying that with the gravity being 1/6th that of earth one could strap on wings and fly inside the large glass domes that would be the Hiltons of the moon. 

What was germane to this thread in his conversation was his statement that Helium 3 is apparently abundant on the moon and is the preferred fuel for fusion reactors which he thinks are going to be coming on line in the next 10-20 years. He was saying that up to now there hasn't been as large an emphasis on fusion technology because Helium 3 is so rare on earth. With an established moon presence it will be the Helium 3 rush on the moon he claimed.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Fusion is pretty interesting, it has been a struggle to get break even or better.

I considered trying a different approach that would be pretty interesting, but in the end, I don't have that much interest on the technical side, more of a " I wonder how close I could get doing it this way".


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Optical "seeing" is really limited on the earth, which is why Hubble was put in orbit. We do have array telescopes on earth, but they still have to pick the signal out of the background junk.

Put a big enough telescope array on the moon, and you could see people's goose bumps.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Reviewing laptop disassembly vids, and the latest ultraslim ones have batteries no thicker than heavy cardboard, maybe 4" wide, 8" long.

They are called "polymer lithium-ion" batts.

Each generation of technology is happening quicker and quicker. Energy density always goes up.

Cool stuff is going on.


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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

Yet, genuine breakthroughs in battery technology are few and far between. Year over year, we squeeze more juice out of the pack, but a true successor remains just out of reach.

It’s not for lack of trying, either. Over the last THREE decades, engineers and researchers in South Korea, China, Japan, the United States, and Europe have scrambled to develop safe, light, and powerful battery. 
https://www.electrochem.org/redcat-blog/running-on-empty-battery-inventions-standstill/


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

There is a general sense that LiIon technology has to be abandoned for something better.


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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

hdavis said:


> There is a general sense that LiIon technology has to be abandoned for something better.


I hope so. We pay enough for battery packs.. 
The cobalt shortages are going to be crazy if the auto company's build the cars before the batteries.
Sucks the valuable resource seems to be easy to mine in the Congo. I have spoke with mining company and its near impossible to get in the ground because of corruption and banana politics. Even if you do get in the ground the government will find some way to squeeze money out of company till it doesn't make any money. 
https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2018/05/africa/congo-cobalt-dirty-energy-intl/


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Nothing has ever changed. From wood to coal to oil to natural gas to nuclear to renewables. 

Its never changed. 

Perceived availability is directly related to supply/demand.

We are paying today for li ion batts the same as I was paying for slow charge ni cads 30 years ago.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I think the key is making the cars not require as much battery as they do today. It's my opinion the brushless motor is a great start. Worked great in tools. 


Mike.
_______________


----------



## rblakes1 (Jan 8, 2015)

Calidecks said:


> I think the key is making the cars not require as much battery as they do today. It's my opinion the brushless motor is a great start. Worked great in tools.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________


We know you'd be first in line for the Milwaukee Fuel 18v BL pickup   

-Rich


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

https://www.tesla.com/blog/induction-versus-dc-brushless-motors

Brushless or Induction?
Back in the 1990s all of the electric vehicles except one were powered by DC brushless drives. Today, all the hybrids are powered by DC brushless drives, with no exceptions. The only notable uses of induction drives have been the General Motors EV-1; the AC Propulsion vehicles, including the tzero; and the Tesla Roadster.

Methinks tools of the trade got their ideas from EVs, not other way around....


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Calidecks said:


> I think the key is making the cars not require as much battery as they do today. It's my opinion the brushless motor is a great start. Worked great in tools.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________


Mike do you really think a 150 dollar cordless drill has better tech than a 100k dollar car?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> Mike do you really think a 150 dollar cordless drill has better tech than a 100k dollar car?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk



That's not what I said. 



Mike.
_______________


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

The Tesla is Brushless and runs on AC current. From what I understand.


Mike.
_______________


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Calidecks said:


> The Tesla is Brushless and runs on AC current. From what I understand.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________


Yes, and use an induction motor except the Model 3 which uses a permanent magnet reluctance motor.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

My wife wants an S model, but it's not practical if we retire in Boise. 


Mike.
_______________


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## rblakes1 (Jan 8, 2015)

Why that? I think it'd be perfect... you could fill the trunk with potatoes wired up to constantly recharge the battery. You'd never need to stop at a charging station. It's fool proof! 

-Rich


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Might want to add a diesel and fryolator so you can have some fries with it.


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

rblakes1 said:


> Why that? I think it'd be perfect... you could fill the trunk with potatoes wired up to constantly recharge the battery. You'd never need to stop at a charging station. It's fool proof!
> 
> -Rich


Did somebody say potatoes? Vodka !!


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## rblakes1 (Jan 8, 2015)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Did somebody say potatoes? Vodka !!


This sounds like the perfect car

-Rich


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

rblakes1 said:


> Why that? I think it'd be perfect... you could fill the trunk with potatoes wired up to constantly recharge the battery. You'd never need to stop at a charging station. It's fool proof!
> 
> -Rich


BINGO!... problem solved... :w00t:


----------



## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

with China's super fruit it's limitless. need super potatos. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

KAP said:


> BINGO!... problem solved... :w00t:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jja8iHfWDAc


Potato's might not solve the energy crisis, but those melons sure could!


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

TimNJ said:


> Potato's might not solve the energy crisis, but those melons sure could!


Put us all on a treadmill?...


----------



## theotherone (Mar 30, 2019)

MarkJames said:


> Sure does, and it'll take a lot of carbon to produce the electricity.
> 
> Still, it might somehow be more efficient overall. And having a vehicle with less internal moving parts could be a plus.



I agree with this statement. Yet green energy could be the best thing in the market right now. You get a better customer friendly service and one very vital thing to keep in mind is that: By using green energy suppliers you keep the environment safe, that way you will have a better sleep at nigh knowing you've helped the world. Surely, there are a lot of things to be discussed. Found some interesting green energy article that might be worth reading. Just taking a look at it and it seems worth the time.


----------



## RichVT (Feb 28, 2009)

liamthomas said:


> EV charging pods will become very common soon. Especially when 5G technology will arrive and get public. This will change the world and force people to use smart vehicles and technology.


And provide big brother with yet another way to track our movements.

Now where did I leave my tin foil hat?:vs_worry:


----------



## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

RichVT said:


> liamthomas said:
> 
> 
> > EV charging pods will become very common soon. Especially when 5G technology will arrive and get public. This will change the world and force people to use smart vehicles and technology.
> ...


I met someone a few months ago who has a Tesla and did say her car is tracked by Tesla, does not bother her at all. When you recharge it all info is uploaded to them in addition to gps tracking in real time. It also can’t be stolen or charged without an account which I didn’t know either


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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

ok so figured id give this a bump. at the end of the last post workhorse was trading for 1.50, its now trading at $25. I got a bunch at $3 and 4 bucks. Sure wish I got more at $1.50, I would have been able to retire.
Better late than never I guess Hopefully this goes Tesla mode and makes my pipe dreams true. Cheers Guys


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

cedarboarder said:


> still doesn't help the car work in the cold. Can heat it for days but once you open that door to use it doesn't matter how warm the battery is.
> Every job site will need a geo thermal garage.
> every camp ground will need a geo thermal garage.
> every store will need a geo thermal garage.
> so now we are talking huge geo thermal power plants. big risks of earthquakes in some or most power hungry regions. its not realistic


They make battery heaters. Old school electrical elements powered by the battery. Certainly doesn't do anything for the driving range.


----------



## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

Electric cars hit record 54% of sales in Norway as VW overtakes Tesla


Battery electric vehicles accounted for more than half of all cars sold in Norway last year, putting the country way out in front in efforts to kill off the internal combustion engine. And Tesla lost its sales crown to the Volkswagen Group.




www.cnn.com




Claiming to stop selling fissile fuel cars in 4 years.


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## SPG (Mar 9, 2017)

Stunt Carpenter said:


> Claiming to stop selling *fissile* fuel cars in 4 years.


Whoa! They've been selling nuclear powered cars?!?!? I better get over to Norway and buy a nukemobile before they stop selling them!


----------



## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

the post-cleansing on this site reminds me of Facebook and Twitter.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

cedarboarder said:


> the post-cleansing on this site reminds me of Facebook and Twitter.


 Are you saying that it has been moderated?


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm still working on how post-cleansing relates to electric vehicles.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

cedarboarder said:


> the post-cleansing on this site reminds me of Facebook and Twitter.


What was cleansed?


----------



## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

I read on the Internet that a company was able to successfully make a solid-state battery that would be a game changer for electric cars.

This new battery what effectively eliminate all the inconveniences of battery charging issues 


David


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Really!? The internet you say. How bout that. No link, no copy/paste, just you read something. Is this the battery that you can charge in 8 minutes. You know you'd need a power plant right next door to charge it that fast.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Leo G said:


> Really!? The internet you say. How bout that. No link, no copy/paste, just you read something. Is this the battery that you can charge in 8 minutes. You know you'd need a power plant right next door to charge it that fast.


Yeah, the Internet 

I’m assuming that’s where most of us are getting our information nowdays 

There are many articles relating to solid-state batteries if you want to find your own source but here is the first one that I found when I googled it









Will Solid State Batteries Bring Gas-Like Range, Quicker Charging to EVs?


Promising 80 percent greater range, a 240,000-mile life, and 15-minute recharging time at a reasonable cost, this could be the battery that outshines gas.




www.motortrend.com






And here is another article regarding solid state batteries and how they are going to revolutionize the electric vehicles 









3 Ways Solid State Battery Technology Will Change The Automotive Industry | Torque News


Solid state battery technology is a hot topic these days. The thing is most people do not understand how revolutionary it is. I believe it will significantly change the automotive industry in 3 ways.




www.torquenews.com





It was not that long ago that I said there was no way in hell that a concrete Saw would be able to be battery powered

And today my Dewalt concrete Saw is the first one we grab compared to my three other gas saws, It doesn’t quite replace the gas saw yet but I’m sure in 15 years I will not own a gas concrete saw


David


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

for the lnks


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Leo G said:


> for the lnks


Counterpoint








Ex-Tesla Engineer Says Solid-State Batteries Are A 'False Hope'


The engineer who was in charge of the Tesla Roadster battery pack released a white paper claiming solid-state batteries are a “false hope.”




insideevs.com


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I already know you can't charge a battery that normally operates an electric vehicle fully in 15 minutes. It's just too much juice to push through wires in that short amount of time. Can it be done, I'm sure it can. I don't see it with current wire technology.

100kWh in a normal Telsa car battery. That means if you shove 100,000 watts into a depleted battery for an hour it will be fully charged. So you have to shove 400,000 watts into the battery to charge it in 15 minutes. That's 1800 amps at 220 volts for 15 minutes straight.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

The environmental lies for all this nifty green power is what concerns me.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

That's just 60 220V 30A outlets run in parallel.

That's a lot of plugs.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I mean can they do it? Sure, special setup. Can this be something at your house, likely not.

Can it be something in a charging station, maybe. Maybe they'll do it wireless with induction coils. Maybe we can remake our entire highway system with induction coils in the roads and charge as you drive. I'm sure wireless can know exactly who's car it is to charge them their bill. Only downside is they'll know where you are at all times on that system. And it'll cost a billion zilliony bucks.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Leo G said:


> I mean can they do it? Sure, special setup. Can this be something at your house, likely not.
> 
> Can it be something in a charging station, maybe. Maybe they'll do it wireless with induction coils. Maybe we can remake our entire highway system with induction coils in the roads and charge as you drive. I'm sure wireless can know exactly who's car it is to charge them their bill. Only downside is they'll know where you are at all times on that system. And it'll cost a billion zilliony bucks.


Billion zillion is nothing, we're gonna spend that tomorrow. There's no repercussions for throwing more money then has ever been created out the window. Bring on the induction lane!


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

They can't even fix roads in NYC without it taking months if not years in a small area. Can you imagine them trying to wire it all up with induction coils?

And then you'll have the scrappers digging up the road for the copper.


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## Mesilla Valley (Jun 10, 2020)

My reality is a plug in hybrid car for my wife to drive daily using no gas for months at a time, but still available for long trips being used as a normal gas powered vehicle. I have 19 , 325 watt panels that supply all of our electric needs including the daily charging of the car. My state requires the electric utility to sell back the power that the panels generate during the day back to us at night at the same price. No need for a battery at this time. Yes it would be more “green” if I stored my own power. I very rarely have a electric bill, if I do get one it for 1 or 2 dollars. The original payback that was supposed to be 6 to 7 years but looks closer to five now. I paid in full and didn’t finance the purchase of the system. Tesla 150 kv rapid chargers commonly charge at rates of over 300 miles per hour of charge time. The fastest charging happens between 20 per cent and 80 per cent . That works out to stopping every couple of hours or more for a half hour break. I’ll be looking at the electric trucks as they start coming out in the next year. I can add 5 more panels to my system without making any upgrades. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RichVT (Feb 28, 2009)

Mesilla Valley said:


> Tesla 150 kv rapid chargers commonly charge at rates of over 300 miles per hour of charge time.


It only takes a couple of minutes to put 300 miles of gas into my truck.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

The ev transition is going to happen quickly, but I can't figure out the best plays yet. Expect lots of false starts. I also have a hunch that somebody's going to do an onboard fuel cell recharge for the ev's. Swap and go.

I have bets on NIO, FSR, XPEV, F, GM...thinking about RIDE if they get hammered any further.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

The only way it's viable long term is battery swap outs. Go into the station and in 10 minutes you have a fully charged battery replacing the discharged battery. It seems like it'll be a mess and a whole new infrastructure will have to be invented and installed. Nothing that's going to happen quickly.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Leo G said:


> The only way it's viable long term is battery swap outs. Go into the station and in 10 minutes you have a fully charged battery replacing the discharged battery. It seems like it'll be a mess and a whole new infrastructure will have to be invented and installed. Nothing that's going to happen quickly.


If they get it down to 15 minute rapid charge (especially at night), 400+ range, and it costs you less than $10/recharge, it'll be hard to say no for a lot of folks.

Meanwhile, it'll be interesting to see all the extra generators in the beds, just in case.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

The grid is stressed as it is. Can't imagine 20,000,000 cars plugging in all at 6pm


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## Mesilla Valley (Jun 10, 2020)

RichVT said:


> It only takes a couple of minutes to put 300 miles of gas into my truck.


If you’re driving around town and not on a long trip you can plug in at night and never go to a charging station, ever. If you have a solar panel system like I have the electricity is free ( or you could say I prepaid for it by buying the system). Just more info 60 amp home charge for Tesla will charge at a rate of 40 miles per hour of charge and you can set the charge time to start when you want, usually during low demand hrs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Mesilla Valley said:


> If you’re driving around town and not on a long trip you can plug in at night and never go to a charging station, ever. If you have a solar panel system like I have the electricity is free ( or you could say I prepaid for it by buying the system). Just more info 60 amp home charge for Tesla will charge at a rate of 40 miles per hour of charge and you can set the charge time to start when you want, usually during low demand hrs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nobody ever talks about the most fun aspect of electric vehicles. The energy dissipation between electric and fuel isn't even close. That direct power to the drive train just seems like a lot of fun. At some point it becomes can the tires gain traction to disperse the energy that the motor puts to the axle.

I want an electric vehicle because they seem like a fun thing to drive, the idea of all the brakes and secondary effects of fuel being something that is more or less an oversight for vehicles is the biggest draw for me.

The infrastructure has some time to catch up, but EV are well on their way to gaining a significant portion of the market share.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Leo G said:


> The grid is stressed as it is. Can't imagine 20,000,000 cars plugging in all at 6pm


That's easy. Burn more fossil fuel to accommodate.


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## XJCraver (Dec 21, 2010)

I can't get serious about electric vehicles until they get the in-use charging figured out. There's no reason that the vehicle can't generate substantial energy to charge itself while it's moving down the road, except for the fact that they apparently don't want to do it. It'll never be 1:1 / 100% regeneration, but a generator on each wheel and a voltage regulator (or whatever configuration) would go a long way to worrying less about where to charge and how much it costs.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

They already use regenerative braking. About the only practical in-use charging for the foreseeable future would be solar panels, and they really wouldn't do much.


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## XJCraver (Dec 21, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> They already use regenerative braking. About the only practical in-use charging for the foreseeable future would be solar panels, and they really wouldn't do much.


You're right. I just don't understand why. There have been alternators/generators on vehicles basically since they were invented. How hard would it really be to rig up a generator driven off one or all of the wheel hubs to charge the battery pack while the thing is moving down the road?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

MarkJames said:


> That's easy. Burn more fossil fuel to accommodate.


Is that a trick answer?


----------



## Mesilla Valley (Jun 10, 2020)

XJCraver said:


> You're right. I just don't understand why. There have been alternators/generators on vehicles basically since they were invented. How hard would it really be to rig up a generator driven off one or all of the wheel hubs to charge the battery pack while the thing is moving down the road?


 sigh, Ok what you are describing is a type of perpetual motion machine. If you’ve ever driven down a road and put your hand out the window you will be feeling the force that is required to move the vehicle down the road. That is the energy plus all the road friction and mechanical friction that is needed to be overcome to move. If you add a generator to the mix, that is more energy that needs to be expended. More than would be gained because of losses in the whole system. Electric cars do gain back power during braking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Where to you put the coal in the generator LOL


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

MarkJames said:


> All good points. The devil will be in the details.


Pulling oil and gas out of a hole in the ground is much less disrupting than excavating acres and acres of land to mine metals to put in batteries. And it's all done with diesel powered vehicles (or child labor).


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

BDW

@BryanDeanWright
·
16h

America is spending $370B to reduce carbon emissions, while China goes Leeroy Jenkins in the other direction. It’s all theater. Very expensive theater.


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

AND they are allowed to do that because they have developing nation status. Which is absurd because they are a civilization that is 6000 years old.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

India also.
Can't get it out of the ground fast enough.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

The new environmentalists. Welcome. 😉


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

MarkJames said:


> The new environmentalists. Welcome. 😉


Are they building a space curtain I'm not aware of that blocks any pollution from China and India from reaching America?

If memory serves, China said they would get with the clean energy program in 2038. Yeah, sure....right.

This ain't about the environment. It's about money and power.

Exhibit A: John Kerry and his jets.
Exhibit B: Al Gore with his mansion.
Exhibit C: Obama and his mansions.

I can supply stats on each of the above to show what their carbon fooprints are if you like.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Robie said:


> Are they building a space curtain I'm not aware of that blocks any pollution from China and India from reaching America?
> 
> If memory serves, China said they would get with the clean energy program in 2038. Yeah, sure....right.
> 
> ...


They exempted themselves.


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## ThomasDavis (6 mo ago)

Robie said:


> Give this a watch.
> It may open your eyes.


Thanks for the video. I'll watch it, it seems something informative.

And I wrote that electric cars are better for the environment, and it caused, I think negative reaction. 
It was not the main reason why I bought it, but still... I've not read a lot of info about that, but isn't it true? I may guess that it's because of the battery?


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Robie said:


> Are they building a space curtain I'm not aware of that blocks any pollution from China and India from reaching America?
> 
> If memory serves, China said they would get with the clean energy program in 2038. Yeah, sure....right.
> 
> ...


Not only money, but giving chyna the advantage over almost all nations. Non restrictive power (energy). The world has to deal with renewables and chyna can easily use fossil fuel which has great energy density and quick refueling.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

ThomasDavis said:


> Thanks for the video. I'll watch it, it seems something informative.
> 
> And I wrote that electric cars are better for the environment, and it caused, I think negative reaction.
> It was not the main reason why I bought it, but still... I've not read a lot of info about that, but isn't it true? I may guess that it's because of the battery?


Electric cars can be great. But they aren't exactly saving the environment like they are being marketed to do. If you don't count the building of the car/batteries and the fact that they are charged using mostly fossil fuels then they are environmentally clean.

The power is great, torquey.


----------



## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)




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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Electric cars can be great. But they aren't exactly saving the environment like they are being marketed to do. If you don't count the building of the car/batteries and the fact that they are charged using mostly fossil fuels then they are environmentally clean.
> 
> The power is great, torquey.



I watched that TED talk some time ago. The guy says the obvious that others don't...


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

It ruins their fallacy.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Matt Ridley

@mattwridley
·
19h

When government picks winners...
Quote Tweet



Brucetherooster

@Brucetherooste1
· Jul 29
Replying to @starkrob21
This is France. They bought electric cars for civil servants. But it was too expensive to replace the batteries. And THIS is the Green New Plan to save our country.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Get in there with a truck load of lawnmower engines and you'd make a fortune.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Robie said:


> Matt Ridley
> @mattwridley
> ·
> 19h
> ...


See? even THEY hate those cars after spending BILLIONS on them... 

Guess they made their "choice"...


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)




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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Saw that.
That's not good.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

The Chevy issue has been fixed.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Base model is going up $7000, so you're $500 to the good only if you get the base model.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Rebate is only good if the battery is made in the US.

No batteries are currently made in the US.


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## Mesilla Valley (Jun 10, 2020)

Leo G said:


> Rebate is only good if the battery is made in the US.
> 
> No batteries are currently made in the US.





reno gigafactory - Google Search




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

*Tesla Gigafactory Nevada is infamously only “30% complete” and it has been that way for the past 3 years.*

Not sure but I think the batteries have to be 100% sourced here. But no batteries are going to be coming out of that factory anytime soon.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)




----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Progress.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

The California law could be just what hydrogen needed to get back in the game.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

MarkJames said:


> The California law could be just what hydrogen needed to get back in the game.



As straight-faced and honest as I can be....

Not unless the NWO deems it so.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Robie said:


> As straight-faced and honest as I can be....
> 
> Not unless the NWO deems it so.


They won't have much of a choice to limit it, due to the pain and teeth-gnashing.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm thinking about pre-ordering the Canoo pick-up (and paying for it through stock appreciation if I buy some today). Not enough range, though. (Probably not practical either.) But it looks weirdly cool.


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## Platesurfer (Feb 9, 2019)

I've always known battery replacements will be a huge problem. A well maintained good engine will outlast a battery by several times, cost much less to replace and people will still often scrap the car before it gets to that point. Want to help the environment? Keep your old shiet on the road longer... 

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562975853805326336


----------



## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

ouch


MarkJames said:


> They won't have much of a choice to limit it, due to the pain and teeth-gnashing.


please let us know when that has forced them to change their agenda in the past


----------



## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Robie said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562975853805326336


That is quite the visual metaphor for the times we're living in.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

For $1 they'll spitshine your windshield while you charge.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

If I were to consider a camping trip with an EV truck (like in their adventure literature), I'd pack propane and a tri-fuel generator. Limit the range anxiety and getting stuck s.o.l.

I can see AAA and others getting into the emergency charge business. Buy in like insurance, use it with a deductable.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

hdavis said:


> For $1 they'll spitshine your windshield while you charge.


If you're there for an hour, it'll be a lot of dollar bills.


----------



## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

MarkJames said:


> I'm thinking about pre-ordering the Canoo pick-up (and paying for it through stock appreciation if I buy some today). Not enough range, though. (Probably not practical either.) But it looks weirdly cool.


I haven’t see that one yet. Certainly draw some attention


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Looks like an old VW bus/truck.
I'm sure the memories don't live up to the current electric stats.
Go for it. $100 deposit to get on a list?
Go for it.


----------



## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I'd like to see the wind tunnel test on that nose.

Tom


----------



## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I canceled the reservation I had on a Ford Lighting yesterday. After seeing the real world towing numbers it just wont work for me. 

We have jobs that the delivery does not leave the city limits but are to far to make the round trip on a full charge.

Tom


----------



## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Yep. That was pretty disappointing. As in unacceptably disappointing. Pretty much makes it useless unless you are just cruising around town.

I had high hopes, as I was wanting one.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)




----------



## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Meh....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570830330806009858


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

At least they have jobs....


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I didn't see their safety harnesses and eye protection...


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

*Lithium price surge hits automakers as they ramp up EV production*

Tripled in price in one year.



https://finance.yahoo.com/news/lithium-surge-hits-automakers-as-they-ramp-up-ev-production-163156837.html


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I don't see the problem. It just makes it harder to afford a car.

It's all part of the plan.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Yup


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## Samuel Navarro (6 mo ago)

Currently on my second EV. A Ford Mach-E Costs about $60 a month to charge at home. Not ready to get an electric truck. No tow/haul endurance. It eats the battery too fast. I want an F-450 or 550 for my next truck. Not a 1/2 ton toy. EVs are much easier to own then regular vehicles. Virtually no maintenance at all. Don’t need to worry about a charging station unless I’m traveling and I work too much to travel very often. Hopefully the batteries get strong enough to use for work trucks in the near future. The best bet now would be a hybrid that uses an idler to charge an electric drive. Unfortunately I don’t see anyone working on that. Another challenge is the amount of juice it takes to charge a vehicle. My current EV takes 48 Amps on a 220v. Most utility hookups are 200 amp or less for an older home. If a person had two EVs that’s 100 amps of charging every evening. Add an HVAC unit, electric dryer and electric range and your using all your amps. Not very practical at all. The EV push is not being very well planned for. Is everyone supposed to get a second meter just for their cars? What about people that live in apartments? I like driving an EV better than the other new cars on the market but the infrastructure is lacking for a smooth transition.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Good post. Thanks for sharing.


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

.









Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## Mesilla Valley (Jun 10, 2020)

Samuel Navarro said:


> Currently on my second EV. A Ford Mach-E Costs about $60 a month to charge at home. Not ready to get an electric truck. No tow/haul endurance. It eats the battery too fast. I want an F-450 or 550 for my next truck. Not a 1/2 ton toy. EVs are much easier to own then regular vehicles. Virtually no maintenance at all. Don’t need to worry about a charging station unless I’m traveling and I work too much to travel very often. Hopefully the batteries get strong enough to use for work trucks in the near future. The best bet now would be a hybrid that uses an idler to charge an electric drive. Unfortunately I don’t see anyone working on that. Another challenge is the amount of juice it takes to charge a vehicle. My current EV takes 48 Amps on a 220v. Most utility hookups are 200 amp or less for an older home. If a person had two EVs that’s 100 amps of charging every evening. Add an HVAC unit, electric dryer and electric range and your using all your amps. Not very practical at all. The EV push is not being very well planned for. Is everyone supposed to get a second meter just for their cars? What about people that live in apartments? I like driving an EV better than the other new cars on the market but the infrastructure is lacking for a smooth transition.


Also on our 2nd ev. Purchased a Kia ev6 after my wife got t-boned in our plug in hybrid. Also have a reservation but no invitation to order on the lightning. I half ton toy is just right for my smaller city and reduced workload as I fade into retirement. 
A couple of miner disagreements is on charging on 240v. I use 32 amps at 240 which comes out to about 7.5 kw. The full capacity of the ev6 is 77 kw so 11 hours of charging for a 100% dead to 100% full ( not really something I would ever expect to have to do). Currently charge about once a week. Don’t ever envision having to charge both vehicles to full at once ever. Cost to charge has been prepaid by purchasing a solar system that was sized with a ev in the calculation. Find road trips no problem even in a challenging area (southern NM). The 800v battery architecture allows for amazing fast charges especially with 350 kw units.
Probably will wait for the Chevrolet work truck due to it’s better battery charging rate and Ford totally fing the way they didn’t put any priority on early reservations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PCI (Jun 8, 2012)

Which country has the most coal burning plants, which country has the greatest pollution? Don't even waste your spittle on chastising me on a "green environment " until you rein in CHINA. So F-off the whole lot of you!!!!! Dumb f-tards.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

It could be a great technology if you could solve all the problems. We aren't close to that. Battery tech is lacking sorely. We don't have the infrastructure to support a full electric economy and you couldn't do it in 10 years with the govt regulations in the way. Green energy is a farce right now. Bring solar up to 55% efficiency and make battery storage 10x more efficient then you'll have something. You still need the full infrastructure to charge everything that is going to be on the grid along with all the new HVAC regulations eliminating Natural Gas for heating.

Gonna be a rough ride with the govt saying we are transitioning to an electric economy without any infrastructure to transition too.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I like the new hydropower initiative, and all the subsidies for it.


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## Mesilla Valley (Jun 10, 2020)

PCI said:


> Which country has the most coal burning plants, which country has the greatest pollution? Don't even waste your spittle on chastising me on a "green environment " until you rein in CHINA. So F-off the whole lot of you!!!!! Dumb f-tards.


You do you. I’m just doing something to save some money and maybe make my small contribution to the future environment. Also my ev is a blast to drive. 
Am I personally supposed to rein in China? From what I’ve read they are going all in on renewable energy. China’s Clean Energy Growth Outlook for 2022 Keeps Getting Bigger


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Leo G said:


> It could be a great technology if you could solve all the problems. We aren't close to that. Battery tech is lacking sorely. We don't have the infrastructure to support a full electric economy and you couldn't do it in 10 years with the govt regulations in the way. Green energy is a farce right now. Bring solar up to 55% efficiency and make battery storage 10x more efficient then you'll have something. You still need the full infrastructure to charge everything that is going to be on the grid along with all the new HVAC regulations eliminating Natural Gas for heating.
> 
> Gonna be a rough ride with the govt saying we are transitioning to an electric economy without any infrastructure to transition too.


As far as solar energy goes, the cost/kilowatt hour is the number to watch.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I think the used truck market is going to explode again.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

MarkJames said:


> As far as solar energy goes, the cost/kilowatt hour is the number to watch.


Still $1000/KW


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Still $1000/KW


On an industrial scale, it between .09 and .07 cents...and dropping.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

MarkJames said:


> I think the used truck market is going to explode again.


Duhh


Mike


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

MarkJames said:


> On an industrial scale, it between .09 and .07 cents...and dropping.


I'm interested - link?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

hdavis said:


> I'm interested - link?


When I recover from the current project, I'll dig some up.


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## PCI (Jun 8, 2012)

Melissa, your intelligent! I believe everything Chins puts out..


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

MarkJames said:


> On an industrial scale, it between .09 and .07 cents...and dropping.


No


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## PCI (Jun 8, 2012)

Inner, you say that the regenerative braking is good, then you aptly state the wind resistance of a big grill(gas vehicle) but do you understand the irony of the wheel resistance of this?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Leo G said:


> No


You're right. It's probably less.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

So tell me how solar panels which cost about $1 per watt can come out with that kind of a charge without fossil fuel back up. The only way that happens is if it's being paid for somewhere else.


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## rich_3341 (Dec 1, 2021)

I have a F150 lightning on reservation. As a landlord/maintiance guy I need to be jack of all trades and carry more tools that a single trade guy - the extra front trunk space is a huge plus for someone that really should have a van but doesn't want one.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

rich_3341 said:


> the extra front trunk space is a huge plus for someone that really should have a van but doesn't want one.



Funny, I never thought about that 


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Kinda hard to put a sheet of plywood or a 18ft pc of azek in a trunk


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## rich_3341 (Dec 1, 2021)

rrk said:


> Kinda hard to put a sheet of plywood or a 18ft pc of azek in a trunk


Electric ford transit or F150. E-Transit doesn't have any major advantages over regular. But the lightning has cool front trunk and 240volt of power in the bed.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I have 120vac in the boxes in my truck. Ran my chop saw and belt sander all day today.


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## sparehair (Nov 21, 2008)

rich_3341 said:


> Electric ford transit or F150. E-Transit doesn't have any major advantages over regular. But the lightning has cool front trunk and 240volt of power in the bed.
> 
> View attachment 533992


I bought an etransit 2 months ago. So far my power bill is up by 30$ a month and my gas bills are down by $480. It's a pretty big advantage.


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## rich_3341 (Dec 1, 2021)

sparehair said:


> I bought an etransit 2 months ago. So far my power bill is up by 30$ a month and my gas bills are down by $480. It's a pretty big advantage.


True.. I mean more from a physical layout standpoint then a cost standpoint. On the F150 lighting you get a front trunk which is big as a percentage of the bed space. On a ETransite the back is already huge. Do you get an extra space up front?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Leo G said:


> So tell me how solar panels which cost about $1 per watt can come out with that kind of a charge without fossil fuel back up. The only way that happens is if it's being paid for somewhere else.


It's not either/or. And anyway, the better bang for the buck is on the industrial scale. Battery storage, like Megapacks, is scaling rapidly.

For residential, it has to be about more than cost, because it's big upfront investment. A friend of mine spent big bucks for their solar and storage, and their angle is the self-reliant, off grid thing.









The Average Cost of Solar Panel System in 2022 | Solar.com


The average solar panel cost has declined dramatically over the last decade, and solar systems now offer more value to homeowners than they ever have before




www.solar.com




.


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## RichVT (Feb 28, 2009)

MarkJames said:


> Battery storage, like Megapacks, is scaling rapidly.











Tesla Megapack battery caught fire at PG&E substation in California


As of late Tuesday morning, there were no power outages for PG&E customers, nor any injuries to on-site personnel due to the fire.




www.cnbc.com


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I saw that. Not the first time, either. But it's still uncommon.


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## imkiler.frost (7 mo ago)

Samuel Navarro said:


> Currently on my second EV. A Ford Mach-E Costs about $60 a month to charge at home. Not ready to get an electric truck. No tow/haul endurance. It eats the battery too fast. I want an F-450 or 550 for my next truck. Not a 1/2 ton toy. EVs are much easier to own then regular vehicles. Virtually no maintenance at all. Don’t need to worry about a charging station unless I’m traveling and I work too much to travel very often. Hopefully the batteries get strong enough to use for work trucks in the near future. The best bet now would be a hybrid that uses an idler to charge an electric drive. Here is a guide about model y psi Tesla .Unfortunately I don’t see anyone working on that. Another challenge is the amount of juice it takes to charge a vehicle. My current EV takes 48 Amps on a 220v. Most utility hookups are 200 amp or less for an older home. If a person had two EVs that’s 100 amps of charging every evening. Add an HVAC unit, electric dryer and electric range and your using all your amps. Not very practical at all. The EV push is not being very well planned for. Is everyone supposed to get a second meter just for their cars? What about people that live in apartments? I like driving an EV better than the other new cars on the market but the infrastructure is lacking for a smooth transition.


The biggest issue, in my opinion, is a lack of supply (of necessary components like batteries, and of EVs themselves). The capacity of automakers to produce batteries is rapidly expanding as they become aware of this, but they are unable to do so quickly enough. EVs will be more widely available the more they can produce and the better the economies of scale.

Since most models have months-long wait lists, the demand for EVs is clear and refutes practically all demand-side theories, in my opinion (not enough range, lack of infrastructure, unfun to drive, etc).


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Up to 8 hours max. I already know what that means. You can drive it steady state at 12 mph for 8 hours. Start lifting full buckets to full height and dump and see what time you get out of the machine. 



Electric motor driveline (net)29.5 hpElectric motor working hydraulics (net)18.77 hpStandard bucket capacity1.17 yd³Kinematics with attachment bracket designZTipping load (ISO/DIS 14397-1)7,385 lbs...at full turn38 degreeBreakout force12,252 lbfHydraulic lifting capacity, max12,364 lbfFork payload 80%4,409 lbsMax. dump height0″ ft inOperating weight10,802 - 11,618 lbsMaximum travel speed - Standard12 mphBattery voltage48 VBattery capacity40 kWhOn board charging time 400 VAC 16A~6Off board charging time 400 VAC 32A~2Indicative runtime (depending on application)Up to 8 hours







L25 Electric | Electric Machines | Overview


The Volvo L25 Electric delivers all the performance you expect from a wheel loader in this size class but in a cleaner and quieter way.




www.volvoce.com


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

When I get stuck in the middle of the upper peninsula in a snowstorm, can't get out because of a failed battery or limited vehicle capacity in rough snowy terrain, I guess all I'll have is a middle finger.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Up to 8 hours max. I already know what that means. You can drive it steady state at 12 mph for 8 hours. Start lifting full buckets to full height and dump and see what time you get out of the machine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1 yard bucket. Can't really use that to load a Wheeler, too many scoops.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

We'll build wide and long highways with them. It'll only take 10 years per mile.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Leo G said:


> We'll build wide and long highways with them. It'll only take 10 years per mile.


Seems to be the way it’s done in NJ. This morning on the news they were talking about a highway that cost $21million a mile 
A lot of people got fat bank accounts on that job


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Bo Snerdley

@BoSnerdley
·
10h

Net Zero Bombshell: The World Does Not Have Enough Lithium and Cobalt to Replace All Batteries Every 10 Years – Finnish Government Report


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Robie said:


> Bo Snerdley
> 
> @BoSnerdley
> ·
> ...


Hmmm. Might have to look into lithium stocks


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Robie said:


> Bo Snerdley
> @BoSnerdley
> ·
> 10h
> ...


Well, we were supposed to be at peak oil and run out of it many times over, so... who knows...


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

If they want lithium, they will find it.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

We'll see how expensive it turns out to soirce.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

*California wildfires cancel out nearly two decades of emissions reductions*
Fires burned more than 4 million acres, emitting twice as much greenhouse gas the state’s total reductions over 18 years.









California wildfires cancel out nearly two decades of emissions reductions


Fires burned more than 4 million acres, emitting twice as much greenhouse gas the state’s total reductions over 18 years.




justthenews.com


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

California needs to be taxed for their horrible carbon emissions...

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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Soon you'll be hearing about massive forest fires that were started by the battery in a parked electric vehicle at a campsite.

Irony.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Robie said:


> *California wildfires cancel out nearly two decades of emissions reductions*
> Fires burned more than 4 million acres, emitting twice as much greenhouse gas the state’s total reductions over 18 years.
> 
> 
> ...


Can't be, wildfires are natural.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Robie said:


> Soon you'll be hearing about massive forest fires that were started by the battery in a parked electric vehicle at a campsite.
> 
> Irony.


I'm sure it's already happened.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

This EV Hummer lasted 15 minutes. Video of the [email protected]$$ youtuber. "Like and subscribe."









YouTuber Wrecks New GMC Hummer EV After Just Nine Miles


Going through ditches at speed in your brand new six-figure EV is not advised.




www.roadandtrack.com


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Gasser would have survived. Probably 3500 lbs less.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Gasser would have survived. Probably 3500 lbs less.


A better chance, anyhow.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Cool.








HotCars on Instagram: "Would A New Ford Gran Torino Look Like This? 👀🎥 . . . #ford #fordgrantorino #fordlove #fordlovers #fordtorino #classiccars #classiccar #classiccarsdaily #fordrender #fordrendering #carrendering #carrender #carrenders #hotcars #bimbledesigns"


HotCars shared a post on Instagram: "Would A New Ford Gran Torino Look Like This? 👀🎥 . . . #ford #fordgrantorino #fordlove #fordlovers #fordtorino #classiccars #classiccar #classiccarsdaily #fordrender #fordrendering #carrendering #carrender #carrenders #hotcars #bimbledesigns". Follow their...




www.instagram.com


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

When I was a kid I was very artistic. I used to draw with my mother. She still oil paints quite frequently and is good.
One of my ideas for future career was commercial arts. 
How cool is it to draw cars and Concepts.


https://www.autoevolution.com/news/resurrected-buick-riviera-makes-the-chevy-camaro-feel-like-a-digital-opel-land-yacht-203457.html


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)




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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

The horrible truth about cobalt mining and lithium battery - Joe Rogan & Siddharth Kara







youtube.com


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)




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## 3rd4thGEN (2 mo ago)

Robie said:


> View attachment 539956


It is a, "*Zero Population Growth*" assistance device.......
Thins the Herd, for the Sierra Clubbers.....

Don't get in the down wind fall out of a EV fire, unless you are WAY behind on your lithium meds..... Mask up, SCBA reccomended


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Here's a good start down the road of good intentions. It's going to lead to disaster. But they can't see it.

Large Trucks and Buses Made Before 2010 Now Banned From California Roadways


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Electric garbage trucks in New York FAIL after just four hours – gas is what gets the job done


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