# Gps



## mattg2448 (Jan 26, 2015)

So who uses GPS systems? I'm looking at a machine that is set up so I can add GPS to it in the future. From what I've experienced and understand, it can help a ton with specifying material quanities and placement, and eliminates the need for engineering staking. With GPS monitored machines it can also eliminates a full time grade checker and in turn amps up production. I do know that it doesn't work perfect in some situations, especially in wooded areas, near buildings, ect which you can resort to the old fashioned way, but I think that those situations are the small majority. 

I have also learned that yiu can create profile designs right in cab of an excavator, so if you were to dig a basement, no grade guy is needed and it is a one man task with grade values a foot away from your face. I think that can be a big seller too. 

So any thoughts, input, drawbacks, advantages?


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Matt, I don't have a GPS system, but do have set up on my mini ex that works well.

A leica power dig pro is what I have, and I have installed plenty of pipe lines by myself with the help of the leica. I can set it up, dig a trench on grade and just drop the pipe in knowing that I am dead on grade.

Foundation and footing work is simplified, I can level any area, set bottom of trench, and transfer elevations.

It was not a cheap addition, but I am certain I have been paid back many times by having it available.

Maybe not what you are looking for..as it's not GPS, and is an "indicate" system, but I am happy with my investment.


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## mattg2448 (Jan 26, 2015)

That's familiar to the Trimble Flex system installed on cats. I would like to be the most efficient I can be and also the most accurate. I have a meeting with my sales rep this week, I'll get some info and make s write up if anyone else is interested


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## Moxley-Kidwell (Jan 28, 2011)

I should be doing the same research, but I keep telling myself we are too small or we don't do that much grading. I would be interested in hearing what you find out, maybe it will get me motivated as well.

I'm pretty green with GPS stuff I've never used it. My biggest concern would be getting the info from paper or my computer into the machines. Special/expensive software and how much time it would take?


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

GPS was just coming on strong as I was gearing down. I love gadgets, were I still active, I'd be neck deep in the technology. 

Looks to me it would afford you to go and do after hours, weekend work without depending on a grade checker. 

If I were young as a lot of you guys here , I'd make the investment in a heartbeat. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## mattg2448 (Jan 26, 2015)

Alright, first thing is first, gps is very complex and you have to understand how it works to utilize it. My best suggestion to get a basic understanding is go on YouTube and look up how GPS on construction sites work. So a basic number to get into GPS they gave me is $30,0000, and I believe that includes a rover and base station, the base station calibrates the job coordinates and sets a common reference point for your GPS to go off of (based off of control points). The rover is the same tool that the engineers use for staking. Now you can build kits, buy new, used, customized for your application to adjust cost, but that's a base cost. Nice thing that a rover provides for is you can eliminate the error of standard grade checking and a lot of human error, all the numbers are at your fingertips, cuts, fills, sub bases, ect. Use it to stake a job and lay it out, use it to grade check, use it for as builts, use it for topo, the uses are unlimited. 

As far as machine GPS goes, cat probably has the best system availible that I've found so far. I know a lot of contractors on here are running some older than new equipment (4 years and older), and to adapt an excavator to add GPS monitoring. You're looking at $5,000-18,000 just to retrofit the sensor system on the machine and add grade control (laser system, not GPS, 2D system). Sensors a placed on the boom, stick, turn table, dog bone, and there is a harness that connects them. The issue that I have noticed that if you maximize use like I do, tree clearing presents a hazard for your new pricey system. For a GPS system you're looking at $40,000-55,000 and that I belive includes sensors, receivers, monitor, ect and is a 3D gps monitor system. Eliminates the full time grade checker. 

As far as getting the design into GPS ready file, you'll need the CAD drawling file and trimble has software where a user with CAD experience can concert the file into a 3D file with Surfaces. A lot of engineering companies supply that file or the GPS ready 3D file, if not and you can't do it in house, the switchover cost anywhere from 100 to 1500 depending on complexity. 

My instances right now which forsee some debt, but I belive I can control the payments and work with it. I'm looking at a Cat 323F L, it comes with grade control (laser system or bench off of hubs, 2D ONLY), all the sensors are built into the cylinders, pin mounts, ect, no harness and is protected to the elements, GPS ready, no wiring, just plug and play. Teir 4 final, plus some options. I am also looking at getting a new or used rover system. It's pricey, but there's a ton of benefits to having the technology. Moxley-Kidwell, I would strongly suggest talking to your Trimble AND Topcon dealer, along with some engineers. Also ask about the files you get with the jobs you bid. It can save you a **** ton of time and money. 

Also a luxury of this is that I can topo the land and upload it to the Trimble business center, compare the topo with your projected job file, and use that info to do takeoffs. With the software measuring tools, you can pin point exactly how much material you're going to move, which results in a more accurate bid.


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

I am investigating the gps systems out there. 2D makes the most sense cost and performance wise for an excavator in my view. A 2D system would eliminate the grade checker in 90% of my work and you don't have to upload plans to use it.

3D systems look great for graders, dozers, etc on large jobs. Not only do you eliminate the grade checker, but they have machine control to auto move the blade.


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## Moxley-Kidwell (Jan 28, 2011)

Thanks for the report Matt. I do have one of my foreman who wants at least the rover pretty bad, he has experience with it and loves it. Like you say, as long as the file is in the unit you can pretty much check any point on the job, restake if you need it and layout anything in the file. I'm going to try to make a point to get a sales person to give us the rundown this winter as well, just need to bite the bullet and make time.

I've got a earthwork program that I have been using for years to get my cut to fills, stripping, import/export, etc. Pretty cheap and easy to learn and use. I did use autocad in the 90's for 8-9 years so I think the learning curve would be fairly easy with something new.

I think my biggest problem will be figuring out what machines I would want to set up. We jump our machines around so much that it may be a huge pia or huge cost setting up 5-6 machines?

I assume the software that you would need to convert files into the units is included in the cost they quoted you? I would also try to find out how easy/hard it would be to get files from the engineers? I see so many errors on the plans I hate to think about trying to use their files?

Thanks again for the info, I'll try to figure a few things out as well and see if I can report any new/useful information.


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## mattg2448 (Jan 26, 2015)

So the biggest obstacle I see you having is getting the machines set up. For site work, 3D seems the way to go, but I can't bite the bullet quite yet. Trimbles system let's you take components, I think the biggest expense, the monitor and gps antennas and place them on different machines. Since you are running the older models and are not upgrading, pick the machine you would find beat for the job, in my mind probably a 160-200 for us, but we don't ever use 300s and larger machines. Let's just say you could pick one machine, add the sensors and buy the system, than you can add sensors to a second excavator or a dozer, and move your system from machine to machine. 1 system for multiple machines which will save about 25-30k per machine, plus it isn't limited to just a dozer or just an excavator, you can use it on any piece of equipment GPS is availible for, just plug and play. 

The software is free, I can send you a download link via PM if you'd like. I believe on the software it has other add-ons and options that you do have to pay for, maybe a more advanced system?

If the engineers give you a vector file (very precise PDF file of the plan, not scanned) than 9 times out of 10 they have the CAD data. From what the engineer told me on the job I'm on, the customer paid for the engineering, that means the cad files are included. May not always be the truth but I would think it's close. I would also say that 70-80% of engineers provide a GPS ready file for most jobs, but depends on the area. 

One word of caution is ask the rep about satellite coverage and reception. If there is a lot of trees and buildings around that could interrupt your connection and could cut in and out during grading. 

Go on YouTube and do some investigation, there's 1000s of videos on there.


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## mattg2448 (Jan 26, 2015)

jhark123 said:


> I am investigating the gps systems out there. 2D makes the most sense cost and performance wise for an excavator in my view. A 2D system would eliminate the grade checker in 90% of my work and you don't have to upload plans to use it.
> 
> 3D systems look great for graders, dozers, etc on large jobs. Not only do you eliminate the grade checker, but they have machine control to auto move the blade.


I do like grade control, it is one powerful system especially if you use it with a laser. As far as 3D goes, the technology in GPS is amazing today. With an excavator I can dig a retention pond and be within a tenth and not ever need stakes or a grade checker. It's all in the computer. A cool feature that the 3D system has is that you can plot out a pond with a bucket and stakes and make a custom design on the screen with slope, depths, ect, no file needed. This stuff is really starting to get me excited to buy.


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## peteo (Jan 8, 2011)

Gps is great when it works properly. Get near buildings, trees, if its too cloudy or hazy and you get problems. Also your gps will be set for say 1200.40 elevation. You grade and install materials to that elevation and everything is fine. Then you come back the next day and set up the base unit and it now reads 1200.57 so everything is now a tenth and a half off. Its not uncommon to have the system be off by a tenth or two which is unacceptable when you're doing pipe and its 100 year design. With a .15 difference in the gps day to day I dont find its overly reliable on its own and you should check it against either a transit or laser level in my opinion. Fwiw you cant ever really eliminate a grade checker for anything thats somewhat important. The gps is great for mapping though and making sure your curb, structures and pipe runs are in the right spot. That is just my experience with gps. It has its place but its not an end all


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## JDavis21835 (Feb 27, 2009)

After the last week of messing around with komatus version of Topcon, I think that is the way to go. It seems to be operator friendly, and intuitive. The thing I like about komatsus version, is there are no poles or sensors hanging out on the blade. I don't like some other features of the machine, but thats a whole different story. 

Ive also run Topcon on Deeres dozers, and their high speed dozer. They seem to be a better dozer set up in my opinion. The system is the same, but on Deeres machines, it is a standard Topcon set up, including sensors and receiver poles. The only thing I don't like about Topcon is their rovers keyboards


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## mattg2448 (Jan 26, 2015)

I had a training day with Sitech and learned a ton, have had a Rover for a few weeks and am getting the D6N with machine system next week to do some balancing and grading. This system is definitely a game changer, we use it to point a pipe from a manhole, our own as built sheets, structure tire placement, grade checking. It's pretty awesome technology, I can even do a rough topo and it will spit a quantity of material needed to fill or cut and has a box to change swell percentages. Tolerances I'm getting on this site is ± 0.012 horizontal and ± 0.019 vertical so we are dang close for elevation and location. You can create a new line to follow if you have to shift the hole over for a curb back. I am extremely impressed with this system! 

I have switched to Cat equipment so I work with Sitech and Trimble, I find it simple and so do my guys. My rep gave me a couple week long demo for free on both systems.


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