# Call before you dig...



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Don't these guys know you're supposed to call before you dig:

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2022593902_berthametalxml.html

Oh, wait, they put it there. That's embarrassing.

Edit: I'm assuming that people have read about the Seattle tunnel dig. That's a big machine. The current news is funny if you've been following the story.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

So that big machine can't go through a 6" pipe


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

no....
Bottom of the article....


B,


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## Moxley-Kidwell (Jan 28, 2011)

Only problem is they would have marked it in the wrong spot anyway! we've had to replace a few house connections that way this year!


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## totes (Oct 17, 2013)

Moxley-Kidwell said:


> Only problem is they would have marked it in the wrong spot anyway! we've had to replace a few house connections that way this year!


This was last week, digging a footing for an ad myself, because I need to burn away those xmas cookies. Stabbed it a few times with my shovel before I realized it was the service to the house. Hate that feeling.
Called 811 the week before, the marked it on the other side of the house. Found the water main shortly after. Locate service is a joke sometimes....


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## 98crewcab (Oct 7, 2013)

totes said:


> This was last week, digging a footing for an ad myself, because I need to burn away those xmas cookies. Stabbed it a few times with my shovel before I realized it was the service to the house. Hate that feeling.
> Called 811 the week before, the marked it on the other side of the house. Found the water main shortly after. Locate service is a joke sometimes....


are you s****ing me?! so whats next? do we call it in to let them know these mistakes so they can update their records? never ran across this situation before.....


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## backhoe1 (Mar 30, 2007)

I find stuff all the time that is not marked. Over half of the time it is an old line that has been abandoned.


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

Found lots of old clay tiles and sewer lines that noone knew about


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## Moxley-Kidwell (Jan 28, 2011)

Sometimes it works, but I think of it more of a CYA in case something major gets hit. We hit a couple of coppers in the same new development. They were pretty far from the marks.

Last year a contractor hit a gas line a few miles from one of our jobs with probably a 160 size hoe. Didn't explode, but what a huge mess. They shut down the interstate that leads from d.c. North where all the government employees live. Hope they had a miss utility ticket open. That was a big line and I'm sure cost someone plenty.


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## MJconstruction (Jun 17, 2013)

The worst CBYD problem we have ever had was repairing a 10 inch water main at 6 1/2 feet below grade. The water table was above the main so the excavator was digging a dewatering hole. About five minutes after digging the hole all of a sudden the hole started filling up really fast. And I mean really fast the guys were scrabbling to get out of they hole. Turns out we had hit a 12 inch sewer force main that was not marked out. When sewer department showed up they couldn't even tell us what direction the pipe ran. Needless to say we did not pay for the sewer repair but it did cause a lot of problems.


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## Delirious (Jan 27, 2014)

backhoe1 said:


> I find stuff all the time that is not marked. Over half of the time it is an old line that has been abandoned.


That reminds me of the time I was setting a pole in an elderly gentleman's yard. I was hand digging the hole with a pair of 10' post hole diggers as he was telling me that there used to be a huge tree right where I was digging. The other guys in my crew were fiddling with our locator as there were no locates in the area. 

I was steadily pulling out chunks of wood and roots from the old tree. At roughly the 4' mark I hit something tough. I though it was just a big root that wasn't rotten like the others. I smashed away for 5 or ten mins before I stuck my arm and head down into the hole to see what was going on. 

I held the flashlight in my mouth and started to uncover what I was hitting, at first I saw just what I thought a big blackish tree root running in the middle of the hole... Then I saw the familiar glint of copper and aluminum tape. 

I had chopped nearly a quarter of the way into a *copper cable as thick as my forearm!* I nearly crapped myself, I wanted to crawl into the hole head first and die. 

I got up and yelled to the other guys, we all got panicked and started pointing fingers. Huge argument ensued before we got out the plats. Nothing on the plats indicated any buried cable in the area at all let alone copper, this neighborhood was all aerial fiber.

We called the boss and I started digging a splice pit by myself while the other guys sat in the truck. I had to chop out the entire buried root section of what seemed to be an ancient tree with a blunt axe. Once I had dug the hole big enough for even the fattest splicer to sit down in I started cleaning and inspecting the cable.

It was most assuredly cut, but when I brushed my fingers over the end I didn't feel any tingle, nothing, I was thinking to myself... "hmm no house alarms went off in the surrounding area" (first thing that happens when you cut a cable if they are there). At that moment my super pulled up in his truck rolled the window down and said. "That cable was abandoned in the 60's, cover it up and have a nice weekend". 

It was 3:30, I filled a 5x5x4 ft hole in under 15 mins. :laughing:


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## barry1219 (Oct 8, 2011)

I always CBYD and it is a joke for the most part..we live in the part of Florida where it is mostly sand and loose soil..the bury depth of anything other than power is less than 10".
Long story short...I had to set a bunch of posts for a fence...I even went so far as to upside down spray a marker line for where the posts will be..they came along and set their flags...water, phone, gas, cable etc....I have to find the pictures..I was using a post hole digger and I found wire in every hole almost...24" away from every flag!!!... My marker line is a the white line..theirs are the orange ones and flags

It is like you have to call just to cover your butt because the location service is joke but you are screwed if you cut a line without calling them first.


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## barry1219 (Oct 8, 2011)

Look at the depth of those lines in the pictures above...it was a miracle that I didn't slice anything up..when I say every hole had some color in it I was not joking..my guy who was helping me usually does the grunt work and he said to me " boss, I ain't as lucky as you..keep making the holes i will finish it all after that".

I know it is not power lines but cable or phone are as important to some people..


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

totes said:


> This was last week, digging a footing for an ad myself, because I need to burn away those xmas cookies. Stabbed it a few times with my shovel before I realized it was the service to the house. Hate that feeling.
> Called 811 the week before, the marked it on the other side of the house. Found the water main shortly after. Locate service is a joke sometimes....


No offense but some homework is required. Where is the service in the house?
Lines are typically straight shots to the meter or to the house. 

Glad you didn't get hurt.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

barry1219 said:


> ... I found wire in every hole almost...24" away from every flag!!!...


Within 2 feet is the default margin of error.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

south dakota law gives the utility owner an 18" buffer, 18 1/4" and you cut it, the utility buys the repair, plus pays for your down time.


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## barry1219 (Oct 8, 2011)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Within 2 feet is the default margin of error.


look at the depth though..plus with such shallow lines don't you think if I outlined the area they could virtually nail the exact location?..it's not like we have anything in the soil to throw off the sensors..it is laziness..that is all.


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## Delirious (Jan 27, 2014)

barry1219 said:


> look at the depth though..plus with such shallow lines don't you think if I outlined the area they could virtually nail the exact location?..it's not like we have anything in the soil to throw off the sensors..it is laziness..that is all.


They are just lazy, thats why we have our own locate guy.

In florida 90% of the time they just chop a line in the sod with a shovel and shove the cable under and stomp the grass back down.

As for it being a straight shot... only if the tech cut it the right length lol. Any slack gets buried too resulting in some pretty squiggly runs.

My company policy is to hand dig all marked linesand visually confirm there location. If we cant find the lines within a reasonable area of the locates we call again just out of courtesy.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Delirious said:


> It was most assuredly cut, but when I brushed my fingers over the end I didn't feel any tingle, nothing




Anyone else see that? You need a tester in your truck, man.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

I double check every markout using copper wire trick and I have been right on the money with the utility location.

As a matter a fact the last new house I built, I had to tap into the street to bring the water and sewer in... I called for markout and the only marks they had was in the street. So for the heck of it, I walked across the property between the sidewalk and the curb, and sure enough I found both laterals for water and sewer already behind the curb. 
The sewer line was capped underground and the water cap was buried.

Saved me a lot of money going for street opening permit and doing the taps... just the permit for the taps is almost 4k in this town.
But I did had to do the water tap, because the did main relining a while back and since there was no house, they never blew-out the water line, so it was capped. But that was considered a repair and I didn't have to go for permits...

With that said, marks or no marks you have to be careful when digging, especially in residential areas, and always have a guy or do DIY have a steel rod to poke the ground every 6-12" as you go. In many cases you will see the soil changes and you know if something was or could have been done in that area... Just have to pay close attention always.


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## totes (Oct 17, 2013)

Roofcheck said:


> No offense but some homework is required. Where is the service in the house?
> Lines are typically straight shots to the meter or to the house.
> 
> Glad you didn't get hurt.


Lines typically are strait shots from the meter to the house. :clap:
Is calling 811 before I did not part of the homework?
This house was not typical....
Mildly offended.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

At one of my former homes (back in 1986), I built a fence and had the telephone lines located (all power lines were overhead). At the back of my property, the marked line was 36" east of my property line so I figured, no problem. Turns out there was some sort of massive splice that was off the marked trench line. When I dug into the tip of the splice, hundreds (if not thousands) of little tiny colored wires came to the surface. My phone did not quit working but before long, a telephone company rep showed up all fired up screaming how much it was going to cost me to repair the 2500 pair cable that had more than half the small town I lived in out including fire, police and city offices. 

I checked my survey and the easement for their line was entirely on the adjacent property. Before long, a large truck with a backhoe behind it showed up and told me I needed to move my car (in my driveway) so they could drive in to make repairs. I basically told them that wasn't going to happen. Unfortunately (for them), there really wasn't any practical way for them to get to the area without going through my yard. Some more Southwestern Bell people showed up, including some higher ups in local management. One jerk said they would push my car out of the way if they had to. I showed them the survey of my property and the plat of the subdivision I had from when I purchased the lot. Both clearly indicated that they had no easement on my property. They were claiming that since it was me who had caused the damage, they had the right to cross my property. Then the police showed up. The officer called the Chief of Police out. The Chief sided with me. Shortly thereafter, another big wig from SWBT showed up. He was the first SWBT employee to be calm and reasonable. After being apprised of all the facts, he apolgized and asked me what it would take for me to let them drive to the location. I told him that if the very first SWBT guy who showed up hadn't been such an a$$hole, I would have let them drive the backhoe to the location. But, with what I had to put up with up to that point, I wouldn't take less than $5000. I figured he would laugh at that or get mad. He simply said, "OK. Thanks." and we wrote up a handwritten agreement. I got my a check hand delivered the following Monday (this all happened starting early on a Saturday morning). That same day, people showed up to repair the ruts the backhoe made and clean my driveway off. A rep followed up a couple of weeks later to make sure I was satisfied.


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## Young_Buck (Jul 19, 2009)

greg24k said:


> I double check every markout using copper wire trick and I have been right on the money with the utility location.
> 
> As a matter a fact the last new house I built, I had to tap into the street to bring the water and sewer in... I called for markout and the only marks they had was in the street. So for the heck of it, I walked across the property between the sidewalk and the curb, and sure enough I found both laterals for water and sewer already behind the curb.
> The sewer line was capped underground and the water cap was buried.
> ...


Though I'm sure it's shown up in this forum somewhere, a search for "copper wire trick" sure gives a lot of results. What is the copper wire trick?


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

greg24k said:


> I double check every markout using copper wire trick and I have been right on the money with the utility location.


The guy from PSE&G did it with one of the flags this fall on one of my jobs. I thought he was crazy, watched him double check with finder. He was in the exact same spot.

I tried it and got nothing.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

rrk said:


> The guy from PSE&G did it with one of the flags this fall on one of my jobs. I thought he was crazy, watched him double check with finder. He was in the exact same spot. I tried it and got nothing.


The trick is to hold it firm and at the same time allow it to move freely also walk at a slow pace.. When wires open 90 degree it will be right on the money. I always do it twice just to make sure. Practice a little and you will get it.
Learned this trick 30 yrs ago from an old schooler and been using it ever since never failed. 
Good luck!


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

witching is b.s.


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## EMINNYS (Nov 29, 2010)

A couple of years ago I was digging footings with a mini excavator . I had called "dig safely NY" and had all of the utilities marked. None of the flags were anywhere near where we were digging... All of a sudden I hear this amazingly loud hissing, and then I start to smell gas! I look into the hole, and I see the plastic gas line.
The first thing I did was jumped into my brand new pick up , started it up , and moved it down the street . Then I called 911. Then I called the gas company, explained the situation , and the fu!#!in operator says "do you smell gas" ...I hung up on her ass.
The fire department showed up, and they weren't too worried. They calmed me down and told me that it happens all of the time.
One of them crimped the line with pair of vise grip type pliers. They told me there was no real risk of it exploding, because it was natural gas, but if was propane.....uh ohhh
DigSafely showed up, asked me for the log#, and told me " Don't Worry about it". Needles to say, even though I had the property marked , I didn't sleep for a while. But thank God I had the property marked... Like someone else said, It is definitely a CYA thing....


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

The original situation that I posted about is still going on:
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...-Seattle-tunnel-machine-Bertha-241505911.html


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

dayexco said:


> witching is b.s.


Maybe so.... But it haven't proved me as bs yet was right on the money each time.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

EMINNYS said:


> A couple of years ago I was digging footings with a mini excavator . I had called "dig safely NY" and had all of the utilities marked. None of the flags were anywhere near where we were digging... All of a sudden I hear this amazingly loud hissing, and then I start to smell gas! I look into the hole, and I see the plastic gas line. The first thing I did was jumped into my brand new pick up , started it up , and moved it down the street . Then I called 911. Then I called the gas company, explained the situation , and the fu!#!in operator says "do you smell gas" ...I hung up on her ass. The fire department showed up, and they weren't too worried. They calmed me down and told me that it happens all of the time. One of them crimped the line with pair of vise grip type pliers. They told me there was no real risk of it exploding, because it was natural gas, but if was propane.....uh ohhh DigSafely showed up, asked me for the log#, and told me " Don't Worry about it". Needles to say, even though I had the property marked , I didn't sleep for a while. But thank God I had the property marked... Like someone else said, It is definitely a CYA thing....


Back middle of December dig safe never came and marked out anything for me, right in the middle of the city. I waited a week then started digging.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

remember when a utility is being traced and marked it is the trace wire that is being traced not the utility itself and the wire a lot of times is just thrown in the ditch so even 24" on each side of the mark has a risk of being wrong.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Cuda said:


> remember when a utility is being traced and marked it is the trace wire that is being traced not the utility itself and the wire a lot of times is just thrown in the ditch so even 24" on each side of the mark has a risk of being wrong.


Pretty sure only poly gas lines and fiber optic use this technology. Electric and copper telephone locates use a superimposed carrier signal on the actual conducter.


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## Delirious (Jan 27, 2014)

EthanB said:


> Anyone else see that? You need a tester in your truck, man.


I dont advocate touching any exposed wire live or not but...

Phone lines sit at about 48v dc and peak at just over 100v when ringing. Its just a tingle normally unless you have wet pants and are leaning against one when it rings. Thats enough to cause an emotional experience. :laughing:

Being that my company wont allow us to carry any tools but the ones they issue (safety thing, we do work with some scarry stuff), and they dont issue testers, our fingers work just fine lol.

You should talk to the guy we call if we cut a gas line.

He will walk right up and clamp the pipe while smoking a cigar haha!


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

I know someone who works a major gas co. here in NJ, he said markouts are within 24" but even if they are wrong the proof is on the one who is digging. But if something crosses over gas line and is close in elevation to gas line chances for mistakes are greater.

He said gas lines when punctured are not easy to ignite and will not explode. Problems arise when the lines to the houses are pulled and the gas follows the path back to the house and it is in a confined space. And if the gas line is cut completely through static electricity can kill you.

Most holes in the pipes are fixed with wooden pegs until the pipe is replaced. He is one of the guys who does the hot taps and welds patches on the gas line while it is leaking.


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