# Windsor One Rot Problem



## Jackby

I just used Windsor One pine trim on a recently built home and it is showing numerous areas of severe rot, has any body else experianced this?

Thanks Jack


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## Jason Whipple

Inside? Outside? Close to the ground? In a humid environment? Cold? Hot? Shady? Door? Window? WTF?

Kind of odd how you're internet savvy enough to fill out the tags section but not your profile.


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## RayGoerdt

along with the comments from Jason,
how long ago is "recently"? and please do something with your profile.


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## Kent Whitten

If it's exterior, then it's no good. Pine is not a good choice for exterior. A year, maybe two I'm guessing and it's got blue rot. Once water gets in there, it's over.


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## Jackby

*Windsor One Rot*

House is in Massachussets built about 1 1/2 years ago, we used all correct building practices primed end cuts etc....but this stuff is really rotting like wev'e never seen on window casings, water tables, corner boards, now I have been speaking with other builders and hearing more problems....any body else?

Thanks,
Jack


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## neolitic

Did you read any of the replies?


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## Jackby

*Windsor One problems*

Thanks for your input, I don't know where to go with this thing, I just have never seen wood rot as fast as this stuff. I wonder if there is any recourse to the company for $$ to repair ? 




framerman said:


> If it's exterior, then it's no good. Pine is not a good choice for exterior. A year, maybe two I'm guessing and it's got blue rot. Once water gets in there, it's over.


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## skyhook

I used it for all new facia on my rental next door. Been there 5 years and still looks great. I would suspect the new paint formulas because that water borne crap offers little if no protection against the elements.


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## Aframe

I looked a trim replacement job last week on a 6-7 year old addition.
FJ corner boards, casing, rakes , don't know if it's W1 yet. Could of been junk FJ or bad paint job from the beginning.

I hate to think that just because someone lets their paint job go a bit longer than it should, should mean that all the trim is going to blow up. 

The windows and trim 10 feet away that were put in 80 years ago will probably outlast whatever we put on to replace the junk.
Lead and oil base paints do have some good qualities to them


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## Jason Whipple

Even though the site says it can be installed outside, one of the reps agreed with Gary at the Katz roadshow that it shouldn't be used outside.


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## dubz

I've seen several places where it rotted out after 2-3 or 5-6 years. My own four year old, factory installed, fjp window casings are rotting.

I think it's due to the fact that today's engineered pine grows so fast. It has huge amounts of the softer, summer growth between the harder winter growth. Look at the growth rings on a piece of trim taken off a 50 year house compared to a cross section of windsor one. 

I"ll never put it on one of my clients places. It's amazing how many contractors still do.


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## A W Smith

exactly dubz. If they grew this crap any faster you may as well call it spongewood squareboards. I think the tree farm/ lumber industry needs to step back and take a second look at the hybrid crap they are passing off as lumber. Maybe a class action will shake them up.


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## Jackby

*Windsor One Problems*

Yes, I think your exactly right about about the fast growth wood. Ive used alot of pine products and have seen rot over a few years etc...but I have never seen wood rot at such an accellerated rate as this Windsor crap. The sad thing is the local yards thought they were selling the best thing since sliced bread...therefore guys like me had very high expectations for this lumber and it turns out to be ten times worse than any thing we have seen before....I like the class action suit idea.

Thanks for your input


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## Craig Flynn

*WindsorONE Assistance*

Hello All—

My name is Craig Flynn, I am President/CEO and 2nd generation family owner at Windsor Mill, manufacturers of WindsorONE. There are many different types of primed pine trim boards in the marketplace; therefore, we clearly mark our trim boards with a “WindsorONE date-stamp” on the back of each board. Please ensure that the concerns you have above are relating to WindsorONE trim boards. Regardless of the manufacturer/brand of the trim board, we would like to help.

*Jackby*: Sorry to hear about the rotting wood products on the home. As you’re likely aware, the longevity or performance of *all* wood products is directly related to the following:

1. The installation & alignment of the trim;
2. The protection of the trim from weathering; and,
3. The periods of time that the trim is subjected to moisture. 

WindsorONE products installed in accordance with accepted installation methods, recognizing the above with all job site cuts being adequately coated will provide years of service. We are more than willing to help determine the source of water ingress, and the reasons for the rot on the home. Can you e-mail me pictures directly as a start? [email protected] Certainly if there is a manufacturing defect that is the cause of the rot we will provide you with replacement product.

*framerman*: Based on the performance of many wood products today, I can understand your frustration. However, WindsorONE is in fact manufactured specifically for use on the exterior of the home, of which the substrate has been pine for the last 15+ years. Our proven DuraPrime 3-coat primer system and proprietary exterior glue-system are two key components in the success of WindsorONE’s exterior performance. And following 1-3 above, with all job-site cuts re-coated, will greatly increase the performance of ALL wood trim products, not just WindsorONE.

*Skyhook*: We agree that many “water-borne” products provide little protection against the elements. However, our primer has been developed by our partner and is an exclusive paint to WindsorONE which is not a paint one can buy retail. I would appreciate the opportunity to send you tests demonstrating its effectiveness, specifically as it relates to oil-based products. You’ll quickly see that our primer system performs superior to oil based products over our pine substrate.

*Jason W*: I’m sorry for any mis-understanding, but Gary Katz would not have said such a thing (nor our own reps), as evidenced by his own web-site if you peruse through his articles. I would be more than happy to put you in direct contact with Gary so he can clarify any mis-understanding (and I’m sure I could get a set of his DVD’s thrown in for you!... anyone else want to take me up on that offer?).

*Dubz & AW Smith:* Your comment regarding the “50-year old” trim is difficult to address. Unfortunately, there are too many factors here to address as an old leaky (air) house full of wood dissipates moisture better, and dries much faster before rot can set in. Additionally, we find that many of the older houses have better design to deflect water. Your point is well taken as it relates to the differences in wood specie “today” versus “yesterday.” What was once available to us all that you’re finding on the “50-year-old house” is no longer – that is, we simply don’t have access to those forests any longer. Thereby, we’ve adapted to the use of plantation grown timber (nothing engineered nor hybrid about it – they are Monterey Pine Trees from the coast of California, transplanted to Chile that we now harvest from FSC certified forests). 

I look forward to any further questions or comments any of you may have for me. Please don’t hesitate to reach me directly any time at [email protected].

Jackby, I also look forward to receiving your photographs and attempting to help in resolving the problems on your project.

Respectfully,
Craig


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## OGStilts

I'm not familiar with this product but I like the fact that Craig seems to be standing behind his product. I only see two complaints on here about this product (the last time was in 2006) and both times Craig has put his name on the line and offered to personally resolve the issue. :thumbsup:

I wish more manufacturers would step up to the plate like this. :clap:

Jackby if you could please update this thread if you get this resolved I think it would be much appreciated by the rest of us contractors. 

Good Luck


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## Jackby

*Windsor rot*

Mr. Flynn, 
Thank you for your input and your offer of assistance with the deterioration of this wood trim. I would be surely interested in your kind assistance, however firstly, I would like to know who would determine the cause of the wood failure? And, if in fact it was a defect of Windsor One, would there be compensation made for both materials and labor costs ?

Thank you for your interest,
Jackby


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## Craig Flynn

Jackby—

There are too many unknowns for us at this point to determine a resolution for the trim board issues on the home. If this is something small, we can likely work towards a quick fix together; if this is a larger problem, I will likely engage a third party building scientist to help us evaluate the points of water ingress, so as to assist in the proper repair of the home.

A handful of photographs depicting the concerns, and if possible one with the WindsorONE date stamp sent to me at [email protected] is the best start for us to be able to help.

Thank you,
Craig


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## dubz

Craig,

Do you provide Kolbe and Kolbe with their 5/4 fjp ? 

My windows are four years old and the bottom of the (factory installed) casing legs are rotting where they meet the sill. They never sat without paint and the windows were properly installed. They said it's my fault because of the 1/32 gap that is there now at the leading edge (bottom of casing at sill) wasn't caulked. You can push your finger through for the lower 3-5 inches on several. 
I'd bet anything they didn't seal the end cuts, but he only thing they will do is give me some more of that stuff which I won't put on after seeing it rot out so easily on so many other places the last several years, primed cuts or not. The risk isn't worth it for me.


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## Jason Whipple

Craig,

Please tell me what species of wood you use for your Millwork, and where it comes from. I'll be glad to fill you in on why it shouldn't be used outside from there.


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## rbsremodeling

Jason W said:


> Craig,
> 
> Please tell me what species of wood you use for your Millwork, and where it comes from. I'll be glad to fill you in on why it shouldn't be used outside from there.


There really isn't a species of wood that should not be used outside.


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## Jason Whipple

rbsremodeling said:


> There really isn't a species of wood that should not be used outside.


Are you "F"ing kidding me?


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## rbsremodeling

Jason W said:


> Are you "F"ing kidding me?


No I am not, is there some sort of indoor only tree I am unaware of? Some are just better suited for exterior use then others.


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## Jason Whipple

rbsremodeling said:


> No I am not, is there some sort of indoor only tree I am unaware of? Some are just better suited for exterior use then others.


No not really, it's got more to do with growth rings and heartwood and Sap wood; but I won't bore you with that stuff.:blink: You just keep slapping it up Skippy, OK?:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Why the hell would you install a product outdoors if you knew it woudn't last long? Do you need the work that bad? Is it because you have to be the lowest price?


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## rbsremodeling

Jason W said:


> No not really, it's got more to do with growth rings and heartwood and Sap wood; but I won't bore you with that stuff.:blink: You just keep slapping it up Skippy, OK?:laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Why the hell would you install a product outdoors if you knew it woudn't last long? Do you need the work that bad? Is it because you have to be the lowest price?


You did not answer the question. What type of wood can't you use outside?


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## Jason Whipple

If you only care about how it looks the day you get the last check, you can use anything you want to. lol


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## OGStilts

...


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## rbsremodeling

Jason W said:


> If you only care about how it looks the day you get the last check, you can use anything you want to. lol


There isn't a species of wood that shouldn't be used outdoors, Just some that are less preferable.

I wasn't knocking you. I thought you knew something I was unaware of. I have built structures in many areas and seen wood used in one area that would not be considered in others.


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## Jason Whipple

OGStilts said:


> I tend to not be able to use my wood outside when it is really cold out.


Me too, and I have less opportunity for that in my 40's:laughing:


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## katoman

Let's say "there isn't any species of wood that can't be used outside" An example would be in Japan they use pine for post and beam construction, but they hand plane it with the grain, thereby "closing" off the grain. These structures have stood for hundreds of years. Cool, yes?

My question is why does the current pine have growth rings 1/4" wide? Is this not genetically engineered? Or is there something affecting the growth of trees today that I am not aware of? Pine was never like this before.


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## A W Smith

rbsremodeling said:


> You did not answer the question. What type of wood can't you use outside?


Balsa :clap: especially for decking. well cept if its a pier without pilings. (a raft)


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## Jason Whipple

rbsremodeling said:


> There isn't a species of wood that shouldn't be used outdoors, Just some that are less preferable.
> 
> I wasn't knocking you. I thought you knew something I was unaware of. I have built structures in many areas and seen wood used in one area that would not be considered in others.


So do you draw the line? Or do you let the clients budget dictate the quality of work you do?


BTW, no offense taken or given.


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## Jason Whipple

A W Smith said:


> Balsa :clap: especially for decking. well cept if its a pier without pilings. (a raft)


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## rbsremodeling

Jason W said:


> *So do you draw the line?* Or do you let the clients budget dictate the quality of work you do?
> 
> 
> BTW, no offense taken or given.


Yes I do. Not the quality but the product selection. Some people hat PT Deck money, Some have Composite deck money, some have Ipe Deck money


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## rbsremodeling

A W Smith said:


> Balsa :clap: especially for decking. well cept if its a pier without pilings. (a raft)


Actually houses are built out of Balsa in South America. And it is used there in commercial construction


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## OGStilts

dubz said:


> Craig,
> 
> Do you provide Kolbe and Kolbe with their 5/4 fjp ?
> 
> My windows are four years old and the bottom of the (factory installed) casing legs are rotting where they meet the sill. They never sat without paint and the windows were properly installed. They said it's my fault because of the 1/32 gap that is there now at the leading edge (bottom of casing at sill) wasn't caulked. You can push your finger through for the lower 3-5 inches on several.
> I'd bet anything they didn't seal the end cuts, but he only thing they will do is give me some more of that stuff which I won't put on after seeing it rot out so easily on so many other places the last several years, primed cuts or not. The risk isn't worth it for me.


 
Do you have some kind of information indicating that Kolbe and Kolbe in some fashion uses Windsor One for any of their millwork? If not you just incriminated both companies in one statement and one of the parties may not even be involved with your problem.

I just reviewed Kolbe's website and Windsors website and didn't see anything linking the two companies so if you could provide some kind of information backing up your question I would appreciate it. Just because one person accused this company of having a faulty product doesn't mean all rotted wood is suddenly produced by Windsor. 

I also like to say I have used Kolbe Windows and Doors for many years and have never had the type of problems you are describing. Something seems amiss here. I agree with you and don't believe for a second that your problem is caused by the gap you described but is it possible that moisture is getting in somewhere else. What type of windows are they? How did you flash them to the wall? Did you use a sill pan?


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## Jackby

*Windsor One Rot*

Craig,
Thanks again for your reply, but it did not really answer the question I was interested in. Let me explain; in order for me to give you a dated sample (which I will be happy to do) I will have to go the customers home and remove a piece of trim in order to photo the back side to fulfill your request. That process may "open a can of worms" at this point in time. That is why I ask the question (hypothetically) if in fact it was a defect of Windsor One, would there be compensation made for both materials and labor costs? As you know material reimbursement alone is only a fraction of the repair costs to a problem like this and ( If ) the failure is a Windsor One related issue I certainly would like to know if your company would fully stand behind their product (or not), if that was the case. 
Finally; I think it is admirable and I fully appreciate the fact that you monitor and respond to forums such as this, I simply was looking for a straight forward answer to a couple of straight forward questions.
Thanks for your interests. 
Jackby


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## neolitic

katoman said:


> Let's say "there isn't any species of wood that can't be used outside" An example would be in Japan they use pine for post and beam construction, but they hand plane it with the grain, thereby "closing" off the grain. These structures have stood for hundreds of years. Cool, yes?
> 
> My question is why does the current pine have growth rings 1/4" wide? Is this not genetically engineered? Or is there something affecting the growth of trees today that I am not aware of? Pine was never like this before.


It is mostly the result of plantation
grown trees.
In many cases trees are genetically 
selected for growth characteristics
(fast growth mainly) and in some
cases the "best" trees are cloned.
Growing conditions dictate the annular
ring spacing.


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## Craig Flynn

Dubz: No, we do not sell our products to Kolbe & Kolbe, nor any other window manufacturer.

Jackby: If you do not want to remove a piece of the trim at this point in time, then we could certainly start with pictures of the problem areas sent to me via e-mail at [email protected]. Additionally, our warranty is clearly written on our web-site; but I am not able to engage in hypotheticals beyond the written warranty, specifically given the lack of information at this point. If you would like to discuss in detail further, I am also available via phone at 707-665-9663 (best to e-mail me first to schedule a time).

Jason: Thank you for your offer, however we work with wood scientists from the US Forest Products Laboratory, Forintek, private organizations and a number of Universities around the world regarding the suitability of wood species for millwork.


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## dubz

OGStilts said:


> Do you have some kind of information indicating that Kolbe and Kolbe in some fashion uses Windsor One for any of their millwork? If not you just incriminated both companies in one statement and one of the parties may not even be involved with your problem.
> 
> I just reviewed Kolbe's website and Windsors website and didn't see anything linking the two companies so if you could provide some kind of information backing up your question I would appreciate it. Just because one person accused this company of having a faulty product doesn't mean all rotted wood is suddenly produced by Windsor.
> 
> I also like to say I have used Kolbe Windows and Doors for many years and have never had the type of problems you are describing. Something seems amiss here. I agree with you and don't believe for a second that your problem is caused by the gap you described but is it possible that moisture is getting in somewhere else. What type of windows are they? How did you flash them to the wall? Did you use a sill pan?


"Do I have some kind of information" ?! Did you read the post that you quoted of mine where I asked the windsor one president if they provided kolbe with their 5/4 stock? 

I didn't incriminate anyone. Take your pseudo **** innuendo comments and nonsensical accusations of nonexistant inflamatories out of here and don't ever question my construction methods again.


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## Jason Whipple

Craig Flynn said:


> Jason: Thank you for your offer, however we work with wood scientists from the US Forest Products Laboratory, Forintek, private organizations and a number of Universities around the world regarding the suitability of wood species for millwork.


WOW, all that science and no one told you that pine is near the bottom of the list for exterior trim?


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## OGStilts

Sweet Lou said:


> there is more to the story....specific to the issue of "rot" and "decay" mentioned in this thread relating to the WindsorOne product, the specie in question is Radiata Pine. This plantation grown pine is an excellent specie for interior millwork, mouldings and boards. Unfortunately, untreated Radiata Pine is and has been used for exterior applications (trim - some siding profiles) for several years. But unlike Eastern White Pine, Redwood, and Cedar, it does not have the natural decay resistant properties so proven over time in these species. However, if properly *treated*, Radiata Pine is an excellent option for exterior trim applications. I would venture to say that the problems mentioned here with WindsorOne were on product that they have put into the marketplace without treatment (they make and sell both a treated and untreated product). I've heard more times than I care to repeat that "my customer doesn't care if it's treated or not, they just want the cheapest product"...well in the end, you get what you pay for. WindsorOne has had the best reputation in the marketplace for years and are now finding out that even the best primed Radiata Pine will rot if used outside. That is why they are now treating the product before priming. There is a whole slew of Chilean grown untreated Radiata Pine being primed and sold for exterior use (Palownia from China, Baltic pine also), and it is only a matter of time before it blows up. My point is...if properly treated, Radiata Pine is a great choice for exterior trim/siding applications...with 30-50 year warranties to back them up. Another thing...Radiata Pine from New Zealand is generally considered superior to Radiata Pine from Chile' as it is grown longer (28-32 years as opposed to 18-22 years) before being harvested, which gives you a more stable, less resiny fiber...which is key to the quality of what's under the paint. In addition to WindsorOne, some of the other products in the market offering a "TREATED" Radiata Pine for exterior use include:
> Claymark Centurion - TruCore treated
> Bodyguard - LOSP treated
> Lifespan - LOSP treated
> Armourwood - LOSP treated
> 
> You'll want to check out the different treatment processes, as they are not the same (LOSP is not acceptable for interior use, TruCore is) and don't offer the same warranty - but that is a discussion for another time.
> 
> I hope some of this helps.


Thank You! I suspected from post one there had to be a user error here and since those users never came back with any actual proof it looks more and more like someone didn't have all their facts straight when installing this product. What you said makes perfect sense to me and was very helpful. :thumbsup:


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## TBFGhost

....old post, but I used this information and did some research on WindsorOne as I have a client who wants almost all of his exterior siding replaced, but refused Azek. Doesn't believe in it, feels it will fail just the rest of the "maintance free building materials". He said he would rather take care of and replace pine and he really really was against it.... I said okay. 

I came in here and did a search to see who was using what and how PFJ held up...to my horror I found this post....but once I got to the end I went on a mission to find out if WindorOne was treated. Went to the website, found they offer treated and non-treated. Called my yard to find out what they carry and they said 'We only carry WindsorOne Protected, and good for you for knowing there was a difference, not many ppl do"


So be aware....PFJ can be used outside....but use the right stuff....

So...thanks again for having this site...


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## Jason Whipple

Funny, I was just thinking about this thread last week.

TBF, I have about 8,000 to 10,000 lf of heart grade redwood that I can make into 1/2 x 6" clap siding. I'm moving the shop and would love to get rid of this before I do. I'll let it go for what pine siding goes for. Lemme know if you're interested.


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## TBFGhost

I would be, but I am talking Fasicas and what not...thanks tho. I apperciate it.


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## Fabcon

I just joined tonite & am I happy I found this thread! I built my house in 02-03 & used miles of 1x8 W1- biggest mistake of my life. The finish primer looked amazing when I got the samples. I ordered a lift of 1x8, started trimming the whole exterior of my house, the next lift had tons of raised grain, tried to sand it all out, big PITA. Fast forward 3 years & I see a dark spot on a window casing, get up on the roof & I officially have mushrooms growing out of my casings! Rot on stuff like you wouldn't believe. Called W1 & got the "send us a sample & we'll get back to you"- total blowoff. Saw a sales rep at JLC show last year, tell him my complaints,"oh I'll call you & come out & look at it" another blowoff. I cant tell you that you should run as fast as you can from this product. Before anyone starts about trim lining up, priming cuts, proper fasteners-dont start- I've been doing this for 20 years & know how to prep exterior trim, fasteners & paint. I used a bunch inside for flat stock trim & it moved & shrank like crazy.
If there is a class action lawsuit, I want in- I'll even drive the bus there.


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## TBFGhost

Fabcon said:


> I just joined tonite & am I happy I found this thread! I built my house in 02-03 & used miles of 1x8 W1- biggest mistake of my life. The finish primer looked amazing when I got the samples. I ordered a lift of 1x8, started trimming the whole exterior of my house, the next lift had tons of raised grain, tried to sand it all out, big PITA. Fast forward 3 years & I see a dark spot on a window casing, get up on the roof & I officially have mushrooms growing out of my casings! Rot on stuff like you wouldn't believe. Called W1 & got the "send us a sample & we'll get back to you"- total blowoff. Saw a sales rep at JLC show last year, tell him my complaints,"oh I'll call you & come out & look at it" another blowoff. I cant tell you that you should run as fast as you can from this product. Before anyone starts about trim lining up, priming cuts, proper fasteners-dont start- I've been doing this for 20 years & know how to prep exterior trim, fasteners & paint. I used a bunch inside for flat stock trim & it moved & shrank like crazy.
> If there is a class action lawsuit, I want in- I'll even drive the bus there.


 
Did you read the whole post? Is the W1 you used the "protected" one?


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## Fabcon

TBF-thanks for the reply. When I started using W1 there was not an option of protected or unprotected, or at least everyone I spoke with at W1 didn't give me that option, but I was told I could use it outside. When I got on the W1 bandwagon I spoke with quite a few people at W1 and they were telling me how great it was & they never had any problems-I even helped them get it into my local lumberyard, passed along some contact info to other builders & local architects,etc. After I started having all the problems-inside & outside- no one wanted to hear from me. I sent them a sample of the rotted boards with date stamps from the factory on the back & no reply. Spoke with a local sales rep last year at the JLC show & told him all my rotting problems, he took my card & no call. I cant express how poorly W1 handled everything but the sale with me, their customer service was terrible. It seems to be an industry problem, salesmen are your best friend to make the sale & have every excuse when something goes wrong. 
I knew better than to use PFJ outside, but the W1 finish looked great & they assured me it would perform great- shame on me for not trusting what I know. I will never use PFJ outside again.


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## Paul Marlowe

Jackby said:


> I just used Windsor One pine trim on a recently built home and it is showing numerous areas of severe rot, has any body else experianced this?
> 
> Thanks Jack


Jack, 
This is a very important topic. I don't have experience installing this product but have seen damage to products of similar design. As someone who has worked restoring wood rot for over two decades, I have a few thoughts. *1.)* I am very concerned about the exterior use of fast monoculture grown timber. To much sapwood and poor rot resistance. *2*.*)* Multiple exposed glue joints, protected only by paint is asking for trouble from the seemingly always present wood decay fungi. *3.) *The use of century old Eastern White Pine as described by the New England Sawyer Alden Robbins is a much better specification beginning*. 4*.*)* Starting with at least a semi-rot resistant species is important. To add to this, there are techniques & specifications that will resist decay, but are to involved & varied for me to express here*. 5.)* Wood decay fungi need four items for survival, 1. food source 2. temperture range 3. oxygen and 4. water which is the one item we as Carpenters most importantly must understand. Remember to think like water and use common sense when installing exterior fabric and when analyzing existing wood rot.


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## Bob428

*Windsor One/pure garbage*

I started using Windsor one pine when it first came out, stopped using it when every house I used it on rotted out in two years or less. I have a house right now I have to go back to remove the product and replace it. The reps for this company are deceitful liars. You have to fight tooth and nail with them to make good on this garbage product. The first time we had to call them out, the rep tried to tell me the back of the boards were printed with the words prime all cuts. I told him it didn't say that, after many conversations and finally a trip the customers home, when I ripped off a board and threw it at him, he fessed up. It wasn't until that time that they started to stamp the back of the pine with prime all cuts. That was in 2007. The bottom line is that there is not only the potential for rot, it would seem that there is type of chemical reaction with perhaps the glue that makes this stuff rot in a way I have never seen in my life. I have been in this trade for 38 years. When it rots and the rot goes undetected for a while, it rots through everything, sheathing and studs. It's time for a class action against Windsor Mill.


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## skyhook

Bob428 said:


> I started using Windsor one pine when it first came out, stopped using it when every house I used it on rotted out in two years or less. I have a house right now I have to go back to remove the product and replace it. The reps for this company are deceitful liars. You have to fight tooth and nail with them to make good on this garbage product. The first time we had to call them out, the rep tried to tell me the back of the boards were printed with the words prime all cuts. I told him it didn't say that, after many conversations and finally a trip the customers home, when I ripped off a board and threw it at him, he fessed up. It wasn't until that time that they started to stamp the back of the pine with prime all cuts. That was in 2007. The bottom line is that there is not only the potential for rot, it would seem that there is type of chemical reaction with perhaps the glue that makes this stuff rot in a way I have never seen in my life. I have been in this trade for 38 years. When it rots and the rot goes undetected for a while, it rots through everything, sheathing and studs. It's time for a class action against Windsor Mill.


_I'm looking at W1 right now on my rental next door. It's been up there (facias) for 5 years and it still looks great. 
Might have something to do with your building design, install methods, or quailty of finish. _​


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## Bob428

ShyHook:

Most of the lumber companies here in Mass stopped selling the product. But I will concede that not every piece rots out. For example, in some instances 2 out of 4 pieces of window trim will rot out and 2 will not. If you use it for any type of water table application, kiss it goodbye. The end result here is that a nice intended interior product was marketed as an exterior product. There is nothing wrong with the application process; as a matter of fact that is exactly what the reps say???


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## Gkatzz

I'm always reluctant to get involved in these 'conversations.' WindsorONE is one of the Katz Roadshow sponsors and the last thing I want is to appear like I'm an apologist for a sponsor. But...this whole issue of wood rot is emblematic of a much bigger problem in our industry, and because I care about education and our trade, I can't avoid commenting, nor can I avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest. But read on and you'll see that there is NO conflict of interest here.

First, the larger problem: Our trade--carpentry--has changed seismically, yet our installation procedures have not. We're using building products and wood products that have never been used before. But many carpenters are installing those products using old techniques. 

The difference between the building products we're using today is paralleled by the difference between the tools we're using: we don't use transits and builders levels to layout homes, we use lasers; we don't use hand saws, we use power saws; we don't use Yankee Screw drivers...in fact, we don't even use drill motors for running in screws and lags, we use impact drivers. 

Our tools have changed and so have our building products. One of the most important products that has changed, and one we all use or like to use, is wood. Yet we're still installing it the same way, without priming end cuts, without protecting it with bevels/slope/pitch, without using proper flashing, and installing it too close to grade. You might have been able to get away with those techniques with traditional building materials, but not today.

Traditionally, carpenters learned from apprenticing to older carpenters. but that system doesn't work anymore. EVERYTHING...our WHOLE WORLD as carpenters...has CHANGED. Today, carpenters need to study their craft just like doctors do; carpenters need to pay attention and learn, or suffer.

Sorry for prefacing this with a lecture, but I couldn't avoid that any more than this response.

There are some really good comments in this thread. Paul Marlowe's was especially important. Every building scientist will agree that water is the single most damaging element to home construction. That is why drainage and drying is so unbelievably important. Especially now that we're using fresh-growth sap wood for trim (using old growth wood is no longer an option--that's part of the seismic change I was talking about).

But we're also using plastic housewrap, or foam sheathing, or solid osb sheathing with plastic housewrap on top, or water resistant osb sheathing like Zip System, and then we're installing siding and trim on top of that! Without ANY breathing or drying room. 

Read this article: "Mind The Gap", by Joe Lstiburek. It's on his website. I'm sorry but I wasn't allowed to attach the pdf, the file is too big, and I wasn't allowed to include the url--I haven't made enough posts to this forum. 

Joe Lstiburek's article, Mind The Gap, addresses the problem I've been ranting about for years, the sandwich of osb, housewrap, and siding/trim; the lack of an air space; and the fact that our siding and trim can't dry after it's been wetted. That is the second seismic change in our industry. If there is no space for diffusion, there is no drying; if there is not drying, there is rot.

Rainscreen walls prevent that problem, completely. And they solve paint, siding, and trim failure, too. But they won't solve every problem: you HAVE to prime all cuts on every wood product used for exterior trim. Read the instructions: Prime Trim, Choice Trim, Miratec, Extira, WindsorONE, etc. They all require priming end cuts. The only trim material that doesn't require end priming is PVC. Yes, WindsorONE now prints it on the back of their boards, but only because so many installers don't read the instructions.

Regardless of the conjecture made by a couple of contributors to this thread, about the glue being the culprit, or about WindsorONE causing the sheathing and the studs to rot.....the real cause is using traditional methods to install new materials. Failure to prime end cuts usually results in the ends of the boards failing first, especially if the unprimed casing legs are sitting on a sill without adequate slope; the real cause for a whole wall rotting is not providing room for diffusion. 

Gary


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## Morning Wood

Gary. good write. I'm a total believer in rain screen and proper flashing. Has to be done. See it done improperly all the time though. That said. I'm done with finger jointed outside. I used some on my own addition as a rake soffit. It went in with one coat of finish paint on it and all ends primed with oil based primer. got the second coat of paint a few weeks later. It is now bleeding through in spots where the pieces are either very sappy, or are sap wood. Stuff has been up for 2 years max. Doing it on south and North side both. Rest of the trim is clear white pine. what is the point using inferior materials that don't last.


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## Tom Struble

was that the ledgendary Gary Katz?:tongue_smilie:Hi Gary:blush:


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## WarriorWithWood

Why Yes Tom, I do believe it was.:w00t::clap:


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## Tom Struble

i see him on my tv:whistling


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## Gkatzz

Morning Wood,
I have WindsorONE 1x trim on the addition to my shop/studio. I primed the end and then ran the boards right down onto the concrete driveway! They don't sit in water, but they are right against the concrete. NO problems. I used their material for siding (beadboard and t&g), when I knew I wasn't supposed to (but I had it here and...what-the-h...), but I installed it on TWO layers of felt paper and it's in great shape. I did that addition almost ten years ago to the day. I also ran Windsor plinth blocks down to a sandstone walkway! They sit in the water when the sprinklers come on! Yep, they have checked and cracked, even though I primed the heck out of them. But what do you expect? Wood is a hygroscopic material--it changes moisture content based on the environment it's in. If it gets wet and stays wet, it will rot. If it gets wet and drys out quickly, it will be fine. If it gets wet and dries out slowly, it will check and crack and the paint will fail. 
My GOODNESS, what's with builders today! These same practices have been SOP for decades, even with solid lumber, even with cedar. When I started in the business, I was trained to never install wood down to concrete, never install wood within 8 in. of grade (dirt or hardscape), never ever install wood within 2 in. of a roof, and never trust flashing, it always leaks, so any wood that you cover with flashing MUST have a good pitch, so moisture that gets in under the flashing can drain out. But I'm seeing so many carpenters these days who have NO CLUE about those SOP techniques.

Sorry for the rant, but it bugs when people blame their problems on someone else. Though I must say, carpenters are generally a pretty good group when it comes to taking responsibility for their work, and when it comes to wanting to learn how to improve their work. I wouldn't change careers for anything.

As for bleeding problems, I've heard of that happening, but it's pretty rare. And it could be related to how long the material was up before it was finished. Sure, every product can have failure issues--I see it in materials and tools all the time, but there's a big difference between failure caused by installation, and failure caused by a product going bad.

Gary


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## Tom Struble

well then Gary if i was you:shifty:i'd come around more often an kick these other guys butts once in awhile:clap:


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## Craig Flynn

Bob428—

My name is Craig Flynn; I am President & CEO at Windsor Mill, a family owned manufacturing business for 38 years. I have previously posted on this thread, and addressed a number of potential reasons for damage due to rot on the exterior of buildings.

I apologize for the experience and poor representation by one or two product rep’s that you said you encountered. I did speak with our current sales team, and none of them recall the situation you speak of below, so it’s possible this particular rep is no longer with the Company or wasn’t a Windsor Mill rep. Regardless, it is very unfortunate that you found any rep to be deceitful.

I would be more than willing to help you directly, should you wish to contact me at [email protected], and perhaps we can ascertain the cause leading to the rot of the trim boards, as well as the rotting sheathing and studs that you describe below. Please understand that we only manufacture trim boards and specialty lumber, and that we do not manufacture the other products that are rotting. Nonetheless, if the trim boards are in fact manufactured by our Company, we are more than willing to help solve the exterior envelope problems you’re seeing.

To clarify a few things:
• We have had “paint your cuts” (in some form or another) on our products since 1996. 
• Painting your cuts is not specific to WindsorONE, but that of all primed wood products, including recommendations from the Western Red Cedar Association, the US Forest Products Lab, and the Canadian Wood Council;
• There are no “special” installation instructions for WindsorONE, only following best practices that have been recommend for the last 30+ years;
• There are no organics in our glues that would contribute to or cause decay

Bob, I am generally able to respond to e-mails within 24 hours, and I look forward to your message.

Respectfully,
Craig


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