# Joining a Union



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

I went out looking for sub work the other day and I came across a company that only hires through the local electrical workers union. And even though the rep at the construction company really didn't make me any promises, the guy kind of hinted that if I was in a union, they would have work for me.

So my question is how easy is it to get into a union? Is it something that anyone can join or do you get in via referral from another member? 

Also, how do they verify your skill sets or talents? I was looking through various opportunities where they had postings for people who had a particular union classification and I'd think that they don't just put you on the jobsite as a result of you simply saying that you can do something.

And lastly, if I were to join a union, what would my commitment level be other than just the dues? Does being in a union contractually disqualify me from doing other outside non-union work?


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

In the MD carpenters local here, I had looked at joining as a company back when I was a division 9 contractor.

At that time, all I needed was at least one union employee on the payroll at all times, sign to only hire Unions and all the legal BS and be able to pay the corporate dues.

The local is so weak though, and even though at that time I was getting fairly large I could have benefited from the labor force, it wasn't worth all the downfalls that comes with being a union contractor.

When it comes to union, you either have that mentality or you don't.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

My area of michigan, guys go though the school for 4 years. When times were good if a union co. wanted to hire you, you bought your card for $500 or so. They were calle dthe back door carpenters. The union is weak here, last week they protested a non union auto parts store. Like a 2,000 sqft building. They had it built in 4 weeks, really how many union jobs is there for that box? Lame. Many GC union companies will hire non union subs to work on thier union projects, how does this work???? Pay off. I once worked in the Detroit area, and we got paid saginaw scale, which was at the time $9.80 less an hour. We called the BA and he said our GC signed a agreement for us to work at a lower wage. The union wants your money. You will make a good wage, but we also pay out $46 a week in working dues plus monthly dues. Maybe that is why so many union guys do side jobs.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Mud Master said:


> When it comes to union, you either have that mentality or you don't.


Yeah, I see what you mean. I was on a gov't gig some time ago where there was another contractor doing the same thing I was doing in a different part of the building. They had 3 times as many guys as we did making more money than us and they accomplished LESS work in a day.

And that's the kind of thing that made me have my doubts. I don't want to be pressured into moving at a slower pace and milking the clock just because I am billing hourly and they want me to use up all of the budgeted hours.

We were installing flat panel screens throughout the facility. Our crew of 3 guys could install roughly 8 to 10 TV's in a day. The union crew of about 10 guys took the better part of 8 hours to get 3 TV's installed in a day. It was ridiculous. 10 guys walking through the building in a group. One holding the ladder, one holding the TV, one pushing the cart, one holding the tool bag, and everyone else watching.

And I'm sure that not all union workers operate that way but in this case, it really looked bad in my estimation.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

I rarely got on trim type jobs when I union carpenter. I excelled at concrete and forms and that is where I stayed. I wasn't smart enough to act dumb at it, the guys that did were put on hardware and trim. The hardest I have ever worked in my life was on concrete jobs, being union. If I would have stuck it out in there my body would have easily been in worse shape. Everthing is ball busting heavy, frost bite cold, just out of reach and covered with form oil. To this day the smell of fu8king form oil makes me want to throw up. So if you get on a good crew its a great time. It really boils down to the company, and the crew you have to work with.

The one major advantage I found working on my own or res. is that you can set your pace. Work hard and smart when it is needed and slow down and work smart when that job requires it.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

somebody has to pay for the annual conference at a nice resort for the executives.
Been there, done that, don't want to do it again.:no:


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Just go to your local union hall, and ask.


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## JasonR (Feb 24, 2012)

As a PM that works all over the country I can just say this, not a fan of anything union.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Once Union always Union. All they are a big gang. All jobs are rightfully their's, and they will picket your site with a big rat if you are using non-union labor.

I pulled over and asked one time why they were picketing. Their signs said it was poor practices. They said it was because they were only paying their help $15 an hour with no benefits. I asked how did he know that for sure. He said, because they aren't union. I told him to get a real job. He pulled out his camera and took a picture of my van and LC plate. I asked why he did that. He didn't answer. So I got out and took pictures of all of their cars and them just in case something ever happened.

Can't stand Union BS.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Well I'm not pro union or anti union. I think it depends.

In my area right now the going rate companies are paying carpenters is between $15 and $25 per hour.

I have a friend in the union, his package is $47/hr. 

My opinion is that non union companies will take advantage of the tradesmen. They won't pay any more than they absolutely need to.

So you tell me........

Oh, and my friend works hard for his money. No cushy job there.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

katoman said:


> Well I'm not pro union or anti union. I think it depends.
> 
> In my area right now the going rate companies are paying carpenters is between $15 and $25 per hour.
> 
> ...


What's so wrong about paying as little as you can? I just don't get that. If someone is willing to work for that pay, who is anyone to dictate otherwise? Do you go in to the lumber yard and ask to pay more for a 2x4? No, you try to get them as cheap as possible without sacrificing quality. That is how a free market works. Allow the market to dictate wage.

It's the same thing with minimum wage.

Why is it only $7.25? Why not $20, $30 or $40 an hour?

Unions are not free market compatible. They drive up costs and don't guarantee anything. They lobby for ridiculous building codes and do more harm for our industry than good.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

The problem is that all the companies are aware of how little they can get away with paying someone. So when you go looking for a job, all the rates are similar.

It's corporate greed once again. It's not really free market when all the companies are looking at what they are paying and keep the rates low.

How is the average tradesman supposed to raise a family on $20/hr ?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

katoman said:


> The problem is that all the companies are aware of how little they can get away with paying someone. So when you go looking for a job, all the rates are similar.
> 
> It's corporate greed once again. It's not really free market when all the companies are looking at what they are paying and keep the rates low.
> 
> How is the average tradesman supposed to raise a family on $20/hr ?


I don't but that. There are too many companies out there. That would be a massive conspiracy.

How is a tradesman supposed to raise a family on $20 an hour? Live within his means. $20 an hour is over 40k a year. That's richer than 90% of the world. The problem with wage fixing is it just raises the rates the company charges and ends up as inflation. You end up making the same amount because everything increases in price.


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## JasonR (Feb 24, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What's so wrong about paying as little as you can? I just don't get that. If someone is willing to work for that pay, who is anyone to dictate otherwise? Do you go in to the lumber yard and ask to pay more for a 2x4? No, you try to get them as cheap as possible without sacrificing quality. That is how a free market works. Allow the market to dictate wage.
> 
> It's the same thing with minimum wage.
> 
> ...


Exactly! If I had to pay our subs enough to make sure all their carpenters made 47ph on every job we woud have to bid our projects so high no one would ever work. So... 15-25ph with steady work or 47ph and no work? lol Not to mention even if eveyone was held to this standard the industry would slow down BIG time; because outside of fourtune 500, no companies could afford to build, renovate, or expand. I dont even want to think about how it would affect our booming market for home builders. 

Unions were needed and they did help bring working standards up when companies could run operations without regulations our public scrutiny. Thats just not the case anymore and like anymore and like many organizations that start with good intentions they grew too big too fast and all of the sudden they became what they hated... A giant organization that feeds on the labor that are just trying to make the mortgage.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

JasonR said:


> Exactly! If I had to pay our subs enough to make sure all their carpenters made 47ph on every job we woud have to bid our projects so high no one would ever work. So... 15-25ph with steady work or 47ph and no work? lol Not to mention even if eveyone was held to this standard the industry would slow down BIG time; because outside of fourtune 500, no companies could afford to build, renovate, or expand. I dont even want to think about how it would affect our booming market for home builders.
> 
> Unions were needed and they did help bring working standards up when companies could run operations without regulations our public scrutiny. Thats just not the case anymore and like anymore and like many organizations that start with good intentions they grew too big too fast and all of the sudden they became what they hated... A giant organization that feeds on the labor that are just trying to make the mortgage.


But conditions was the excuse that the unions needed in order to sieze control. It was their intention all along to become a political force. It's just like health care reform. The gov't is hiding behind the fact that it "helps" those that can't help themselves, but it's really about $$$ and power.

Why are their gov't unions? Why do they need to be protected from the gov't?


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Ok, like I said I'm not pro union, I'm pro a man being able to make a decent wage.

Here let's say a guy apprentices in carpentry, or electrical, or plumbing. This takes about 4 years. Add another 4 years to that to get really good at his trade. Plus he has to buy a bunch of tools.

Now, all the companies in any given area know what everyone else is offering in wages. So they just offer the same amount. Like I said, in my area it's about $20/hr.

Well after 8 years of working my butt off to get good at my trade, I just laugh at that rate. Let's be real here, a truck alone costs about $7/hr. Add to that tool purchases and necessary tool replacement and there isn't much left to live on. 

The companies rape the trades. Always been like that, always will be.

The only way out is to either join the union, or go it on your own. That's just the way it is.

At least the union gigs are paying a tradesman what he's worth.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

katoman said:


> Ok, like I said I'm not pro union, I'm pro a man being able to make a decent wage.
> 
> Here let's say a guy apprentices in carpentry, or electrical, or plumbing. This takes about 4 years. Add another 4 years to that to get really good at his trade. Plus he has to buy a bunch of tools.
> 
> ...


I still say BS. There are plenty of smaller companies paying a decent wage. And I can't swallow it costing nearly 15k to have a truck.

I also can't see someone getting $20 an hour after nearly 10 years in the trades. At that point you should be running your own crew, not swinging a hammer. If you are just swinging a hammer, then $20 is all you get. Make something of yourself, don't stand around and wait for someone to take care of you. You can't sit and swing a hammer for 40 years, for someone else and expect to retire comfortably.

I cannot afford to pay someone $47 an hour, plus my side of the deal. I would have to charge over $100 an hour to just break even. Who is going to pay over $100 an hour per guy to frame a house? Not going to happen.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I got a copy of the union agreement as I was considering making my company union, I'm not anymore.

I have 2 employees who were in the union, based on what they tell me and what I read in the agreement I pay about $1.00 less, my hourly rate to them is higher but I don't offer benefits.

But as the guys also put it, I give them 44 hours a week, each and every week, union was work a month and than off til they got another job


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

My brother left working with me about 3 years ago. He wanted more benefits for him and his family. He new he couldnt get it working for me. So he joined iron workers union and is makein over 30 dollars an hour plus benefits and in 20 years he will be retired. Rebuilding ground zero :thumbsup:



So sometimes i think im the dummie one with all the headaches of running a business with no benefits that union guys get when there done working. Because we have to pay and save for everthing . Plus im bidding against them on jobs that they try to do on the side anyway.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Exactly, there in lies the problem. No one will pay the $100/hr. you would have to charge.

Not everyone is cut out to run their own company, as we know 80% fail within 10 years.

I've run the numbers many times, and yes, it costs about $7/hr for truck, insurance, repairs.

I don't have a solution to this problem. All I'm saying is that there are good men out there who are being forced to work for half of what they should be making.

If I was a young guy with my journeymans' ticket, I would join the union. Not for any political reasons, for the decent wages.

Let's be honest here, none of us who are self employed would work for those rates. But we can't pay more due to that the HO won't pay more.

Just because someone for many reasons, can't run their own company doesn't make him less of a tradesman. I know several top notch carpenters who just want to do their trade, not run a company.

Like I said, it's either join the union, or go out on your own.

And then we, as employers, complain there's no good people out there.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> $20.00 an hour is not a living wage for anyone that has a family.


Can you say that a little louder:thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Being a member of a trade union allows you to carry your benefits, including your pension, from job to job, it doesn't matter who you work for, your benefits always remain the same. I have yet to see a non union shop offer the total package you get from a trade union when you look at the package as a whole, health insurance through most non union shops can be incredibly expensive.
> 
> And to add, the resident union hater lives in one of the most expensive suburbs of Chicago, as do a lot of union tradesmen, but I doubt anyone that works for him can afford to live there. $20.00 an hour is not a living wage for anyone that has a family.


I didn't say that Unions don't have some great benefits, but just because some there is some good in the mix, doesn't mean that we should keep it.

As for non-union shop benefits and insurance, there are several ways to get insurance that has great benefits and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

And concerning where I live, You have no clue as to what you talking about. The median income is $90k and per capita income is $48k. There are a lot of people living here making $42k a year. A lot of families have two working parents...such as mine. 

Next! :thumbsup:

I also found it funny that you singled me out...seeing there are a few here that agree with me...:whistling 

You gotta stop hate'n! :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> $20.00 an hour is not a living wage for anyone that has a family.


Sure does beat $0 an hour. 

Or get a better job. Find a different field...no one is forcing anyone to work for $20 an hour.

Most have two working parents. 

And there's always super couponing...:laughing:


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I would have to charge over $100 an hour to just break even. Who is going to pay over $100 an hour per guy to frame a house? Not going to happen.


Most all of the successful contractors I know bid their man hour at just over 100$ph 



JasonR said:


> What if the guy cooking burgers in the diner


 Really, I pull 2or3 thousand $$ worth of tools out of my van in the morning and am compared to a burger flipper









I hope I pick up a union gig soon so I can get some health Inc. for my family and kids, can't seem pay that 860$ a month on that 20 buck an hour:no:


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Most have two working parents.


What's this:blink:


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## joeh20 (Jan 4, 2012)

*Re: Joining A Union*

I have never been in a trade union, but my DW spent 9 years in the 480 local Teamsters while at UPS. She was making $18 an hour part time, with full family insurance for free vison/dental the works, $20 co-pay and 4 weeks vacation, she quit after 9 years and at age 59 she will draw $459 dollars a month for life, she only paid $36 a month dues for 9 years, thats about $4000 in dues, if she lives to 80 she will draw $110,000 in retirement. 
It was a pain sometimes, with everyone filing grievances for everything all the time, they wouldn't get rid of people that should have been gone because they were in the union. I couldn't have done it, I'm too damn independant. But when I retire and she has the extra money coming in it will be worth it to us. 
They have a large Military test facility next to us and they are all union out there. One bunch was on strike for like 5 years. The Airforce gave them their own gate to strike at, and moved the main delivery entrance down the road. I worked out there for 3 days with my Sparky boss, I wasn't there long enough for them to know I didn't have a card. They went home one long weekend and came back on Tuesday and the new treatment plant was wired up and running. I heard they were pissed. But uncle sam said get er done. I got er done and got out of there. They probally got paid not to do the the work we did anyway.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I think both sides here make some valid points. And some invalid points.

Like I said, for me this is not union vs non-union. It's about the craft of carpentry (or any of the trades) and it's worth.

Everyone here has different experiences, and of course, I can only draw on my own experiences. I also understand that rates vary depending on where we live.

But a few observations here, and how do we address them?

If a man wishes to become a real tradesman who will train him? And I mean a proper appreniceship. The union will, the non-union companies generally won't. Why? Because it costs money.

The points already made about benefits speak for themselves. Non-union companies again, generally, don't offer the same level of benefits. Why? Because it costs money.

I have never (in over 40yrs) seen a non-union company offer to their people what the union does. Why? Because it costs money.

I know first hand that most (if not all) companies (yes, those with 5 or 500 employees) will squeeze the amounts they need to pay by the pennies, as low as they can. Why? Because it's money. In their pocket.

So, the situation remains the same. How will we make it better for the skilled tradesman? Obviously the free market place won't do it. Hell, they won't even help train people, they sure aren't going to agree to a fair wage.

If you go to the hospital and see a doctor, you know he's been trained and you're in good hands. And you pay for that training and knowledge.

I believe it should be the same for the trades. If you hire a carpenter, or mason, you should know they've been properly trained. And you will pay for that training and knowledge.

I would like to see it mandatory that anyone working at their given trade have a jouneyman ticket. So you're either an apprentice or a journeyman. 

This would raise the bar in the trades, and allow for higher wages.

Before you tell me that's not free enterprise, think about the doctor annallagy. If doctors are not trained they kill people. If trades are not trained, buildings fail. And maybe kill people.

I know the comparison to doctors is a little bit of a stretch. But I'm trying to make my point here. Trained people have pride in their craft and expect, and demand, fair compensation for the hard work they put in to become a journeyman.

So right now only the unions are training people. And perhaps a very few non-union. How do we change this? I don't think we can. It would have to be legislated. 

And I know that won't happen. So, any suggestions here?

Let's not bash union or non-union. I use the differences to point out the problems as they affect us, the tradesmen. I'm looking for solutions.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Then you are the exception to the rule. 99 out of a 100 unions guys look down at anyone non-union. You know that is true being in the union all those years. You are pond scum if you cross the line. You are the lowest of the low if you try to feed your family outside the union teet.
> 
> I am glad that you saw the light! Preach it brother!



Those that do are a bunch of hypocrites. A lot them do "side jobs" which is "NON-Union" usually on the weekends or in between union gigs. 


The other thing to keep in mind is only about 13% of all people in the trades are union. That's it. That # used to be a lot higher. Millions of highly skilled tradesmen like myself voted & continue to vote with their feet. 

For the most part unions need PLA's in order to survive cause the can't compete. 

The unions put out this myth the Union labor is superior to non-union labor. Well let's see, according to the union propaganda, the millions of union skilled tradesmen that voted with their feet somehow "forgot" everything they knew the second they stopped paying union dues. Yeah. right! :laughing::laughing::jester:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Brickie said:


> The other thing to keep in mind is only about 13% of all people in the trades are union. That's it.


Kato, does that mean that 87% of the non-union guys haven't a clue, are not trained, and shouldn't be in construction.

You say that it's not a union/non-union thing, but you keep making it sound like the only way you get training or know what you are doing, the only way to get real money or benefits is to go union. And that's just the Union BS that is fed all over this country. It is the scare tactic that they use.

All you who think unions are the chit, they are a political organization that preys on their workers. Uses them to leverage contracts and strong arm legislation. They pay well give good benefits, not because they care, but because they are buying loyalty. Look at any pension plan these days, they are upside down. They cannot afford what has been promised. You can only prop up that kind of system for so long. The economy and market can not bare it.

Unions are not about people, but power. I would rather make $20 an hour and be free, than to shackle myself to a union and have to go with their flow. Try to put a Republican sticker on a truck and park it at a union hall, see what happens.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

> If a man wishes to become a real tradesman who will train him? And I mean a proper appreniceship. The union will, the non-union companies generally won't. Why? Because it costs money.



Who will train them besides the union???? That's easy. These guys will:

http://www.abc.org/Education_Training/Craft_Training_and_Apprenticeship.aspx


I & plenty of other former union members will also train our employees the "old fashion way", the way it was done for thousands of years, long before there was anything called a union


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

I haven't worked union in a ten years or so, and have seen both pros and cons on both sides of the fence.

I worked union for awhile during my apprenticeship. The pay and benefits tended to be better than past non-union work. There was no slacking on the jobsites, doing scaffolding and formwork. Anyone who slacked off didn't make it more than a week, if that. This was not the UBC however. (Worked on one of their sites and did not like that attitude that was everywhere)

Things I like about unions: Good pay and benefits, emphasis on training and apprenticeship programs, emphasis on jobsite safety.

Things I do not like about unions: Some attitudes (not all the time though) work not as predictable, really do not like their "strikes" on non-union employers, as most of them picketing have no idea what running a business is like.

However in the private sector, there may be less interest on employers parts on apprenticeships, I believe the starting pay will be lower, the health and retirement benefits aren't nearly as widespread.

I browse the employment sections locally out of curiosity. Some private sector jobs offer a decent wage, most often as a lead hand type deal. Most looking for a carpenter the wage isn't great. However i've seen one recently looking for a school district carpenter (union), pays 30 bucks an hour plus benefits. That to me (the hourly wage) is what a trained carpenter should make. (When I had a guy working for me, that is what I paid him) I don't feel entitled to the benefits however it would make life a lot easier sometimes.

After all a carpenter (or any other trade) completes 4 years of apprenticeship or OTJ training, then all the experience after in a wide range of areas, usually will have a long list of tools, etc. Seems like a job to me that should be worth a middle class income


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

this topic is near and dear to my heart. I was union for a long time and non union. I worked steady in both situations. I made just enough to pay rent and live when i was non union, when I joined the union, I purchased a home. The expertise and willingness of all the guys on the crew was the same both union and non. 
However, in the union if there was something that I didn'y know how to do ie, concrete forms, acoustic ceilings, office cubicle systems whatever, I could take classes at night at our union hall. I had an excellent benefits package worth $30 plus an hour and my gross earnings exceeded 100K every year. Not bad for a carpentry foreman. Everything else was the same, some guys were good some guys were lazy.
Now i have my own company and believe me, if i could I would sign with the union today. As an employer in a very competitive city, there is no better way to attract and retain the best talent than to pay then top dollar and benefits. They need to feel like they will have a future with our company until retirement. In order for me to be able to afford those wages and bennies, I gotta be competing in the union market. 
Non union market dictates guys get paid 20-30 per hour. Thats actually generous, and forget about bennies. If I had to close my business tomorrow, I would go back to working union. From an employees perspective, there is no comparison.


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

I've been following this thread for a bit and have been thinking about chiming in.

I'm currently a union carpenter apprentice. I'm finishing up my second year and honestly, I have many mixed feelings. 

This past year I worked just around 700 hours. I am just about at wits end. A one month job here, 2 months off. A one week job there, another month off. It's impossible. 

I go onto a job and see some guy I know, that has a history of being a whiner, turns out he's the foreman. First week he's ok. Then by the second or third week, he's complaining about this and that, and how he feels the company isn't doing their job taking care of him. Breaks aren't long enough, this and that. Then they lay him off. He got what he wanted. To be laid off. Then before you know it, he's on another job as the foreman or steward and it starts over again, and all because he knows someone!

I got called out for a scaffold job this past week. Business Agent said 5 10's. Company said 5 10's. By wednesday morning, hours are down to 8. By thursday afternoon, works slowing down, down the road we go.

Yeah the money's good, when your working. And the bennies arent bad either, but if you don't have the hours you don't have the bennies. 

If you look for a job outside the union you see the $15/hr jobs with no benefits, if the wage is even that high. If you take that job to fill in the gaps, you run the risk of being kicked out of the union. 

I asked my training coordinator if it would be ok if I found a residential contractor to work for instead of sitting on my ass. I was told not to because apparently the union is trying to get back that share of the market!!!!! I replied that I don't see that ever happening, the numbers just don't work out. I was told to never say never...

I understand what they're trying to do, and I believe that a trades person deserves a decent wage, with benefits. I mean even burger flippers get benefits!! (there's that term again.) why shouldn't a carpenter deserve a living wage and benefits???

I believe with what Kato said earlier, the overall understanding of tradespeople needs to change. We aren't high school dropouts that can only make the head of a hammer meet the head of a nail 6 times out of 10.

I know that this response is all over the place, and probably makes no sense, but I just wanted to throw some points out there, maybe someone will pick something out to expand on, but I must admit, I'm very torn about the choice I made 3 years ago...


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

What plays into it as well is the area you are in and what the economy is like-If things are slow, so will the union, and non union will not pay well because they know there are a lot of workers hungry for the work.

A few years ago around here, everything was going full time, and companies were competing with each other wage wise to get workers, the economy was kicking ass. Hopefully soon enough times will be like that again.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

The median wage in Oregon is around 15 bucks an hour. Most guys would love a 20 dollar an hour job. Is it enough to buy a brand new truck and a nice new house? If you budget right. If your wife works as well, you can live a very good life.

As for Union jobs, those tend to be on government jobs. Seems like if you need the government to fund your high wages, you are not playing in the real world. Why should the government pay more for a job than it would actually go for in the private sector. 

Plumbing or roofing a college campus building is no different than the same building downtown, but the college must pay a higher contract price. Fine, if they are also allowed to consider bids from non-union shops at the average wage level. I guarantee they would pick the lower bid. The job would still get done in just as professional a manner, and probably faster. 

If the unions want to compete on a level field, I'm all for it. They probably couldn't though.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Well, still some bashing going on. Let's try to move past that. Focus on how can we, or even can we, raise the bar for the tradesmen.

One more question - who here has apprenticed men through a proper, registered apprenticeship program.

I've done 3 guys. Costs about five thousand per guy. Who else will do this? Or has done this?


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

I would like the opportunity, however I tend to do maintenance stuff in between bigger jobs, and so can't guarantee someone that I can keep them busy for four years. Hopefully sometime in the future, once I build my business a bit:thumbsup: Still have probably 30 years of working ahead so lots of time


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

I see in some union trades, where they take a new guy and keep him working with a journyman for the whole 4 years. They make sure he has done every job there is and can run work. They tend to stay with a co. for many years. With work as slow as it is, do co. still do that ? I know when I went though I was stuck on forms for 4 years staight, then framing, and very little on anything else. My teacher looked at my hour sheet once and seen 3,000 hours in forms and pile driving. You need to do some other jobs, I said good luck with that, with forms I stay working. Hardware jobs go to guys that are related to the super. There is something about pouring footings that are 12' thick, huge cranes, and jobs that last years before it ever gets out of the ground.

I can see now that the schooling was only a outline and it was up to me to color it in. But I was young making more then I was working for the old boy. 

Back to katos question, my dad being non union contractor did any job that he thought he could make money at. I mean any job. We poured concrete, layed blocks, tiled, roofed, framed, painted, rebuilt cistens, wired, replaced windows, rubber roofing, you name it we did it. If you kept your mouth shout, worked hard and watched you learned all of that. And we did excellent work. He has the smallest ad in the phone book, only put his name on the trucks because of the D.O.T, and is busy year around. I know of 5 guys that worked for him, learned and became sucessfull lic. builders or got in to the union because of what he taught them.

I was probley the only high school 12th grader that had his builders Lic. and accepted into the union app. school before I gradurated at the end the school year.


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## JasonR (Feb 24, 2012)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Most all of the successful contractors I know bid their man hour at just over 100$ph
> 
> Really, I pull 2or3 thousand $$ worth of tools out of my van in the morning and am compared to a burger flipper
> 
> ...


I wasnt comparing a carpenter to a burger flipper... I was using a situation that most people can relate to as the person paying for the product. If compensation to labor goes up the cost of the product goes up and the customer wont be able to pay for it on a regular basis...So the outcome is the business slows down because less clients are able to pay for the product and then revenue goes down. When revenue goes down profits go down, if the payroll stays the same. There is a point that it will cost more money to open the doors than the business brings in. Eventually the business closes and poof, no more jobs... no more product and everyone loses.


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## Fredrik.E (Mar 18, 2009)

I been reading the thread and i just wanna give input how we got it here in Sweden.

Sweden is a strong union country but it begining to change thanks to the Goverment.

I think about 70 % of the people that work are in the union and maybe 80 % of the companys have an agreement with the union that says that the company will follow the rules that been negotiated with the union.

A carpenter who is in the union makes between 20-30 $ / hour , but can make more since we have a performance pay an then we can up to 35 $ .

But there is carpenters from other countrys working in Sweden for 10 $

Since the uninon is strong the mayor companys are begining to do things to make the union weaker. They hire peolpe that doesent speak swedish and they dont pay them as much as they pay Swedish carpenters. 

Some of the big companys are not taking safety seriosly as much as they did before ,because they want to make more money.

The union can make a company write a agrement if there is a union carpenter in hte comapny that want the comapny to follow the union rules.

Thanks to the union there are good safety rules in the buissnes , a decent pay , unemploy insurance ,home insurace and pension by law. 

And all this for 100$ a month in a fee.

unfortanlty many peolpe think it is to expnsive to be in the union ( it has been 50 $/month) so many low incomst workers need the 100$ to live for instead. There for the union is getting weaker. 

The higher fee is because the goverment taken away tax reduction if you are connected to the union and raised the unemploy fee that is in the union fee.


The union have cancelled all agrement and getting ready for strike ,about 200 companys will be a affected in this first turn. 

Our education is 3 years in carpenter school annd 3 years as an apprentice before you can say that you are a carpenter.

unfortantly there are to many hacks in buissnies and not many take pride into there work. They could stand in Mcdonads and flip burgers if the would make they same pay. But so would many of the bosses to.

As it is now we got they same pay if you are a good carpenter or you are a lousy carpenter . This is wrong if you ask me...

We lost our carftmanship along the way to make more efficent houses/bulidnings. 

Everything most go faster and cheaper then the previus job. And the pressure are on the workers but most of the misstakes are on the companys because they send the wrong blue print ,wrong materials ,changing all the time but have the same time line .

I am a lead carpenter that doesent have much contact with the bosses because i fix all the problem my self with customers ,subs and so on. If i trie to get help form my bosses they uselly forget, or screw up.

I been in the union for almost 20 years in as a carpenter and as a chef.
And got help from the union 5-7 times.

I hope that the union gets stronger because it helps against companys greed.

But the union are begining to be greedy them self.

I wish that somewhere we find the path to appreciat good craftmansship and pay those that is good some extra $

sorry for my bad english I am Swedish


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## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

When working on PW projects we have to pay rate pay to employees. 

We don't hire from the hall because we like to use current work force that could be doing non rate work today and rate work next week depending on what job we are on.

Residential work is about half the pay rate than PW's project. Residential work pays about $15 to $20 p/h for basic labor. That same laborer working on PW project makes about $35 p/h.

What we do as a employers is find ways to do the PW's project with as little employees as possible. You could call that greedy but that would be ridiculous to do so. It is not greed but it is survival. We would never win any contracts if you do not look for ways to cut costs. The average profit on PW projects is less than 10%.

Residential work we don't look to cut the work force because the cost of labor is less. 

My point is this whats better higher pay but fewer employees and less hours or lower pay and more hours. Either way the employer has to make a profit.

What bothers me is some of you are blaming "*big Business*" , "*As I said THIS is exactly what happened to the working world-guys like you finger pointing at Hard Working people !!!!!! "*
How could any one say that. Like some how it is the employers fault that working people are out of work. Come on man. That is drinking cool aid. 

The employers have a right to make a profit, they have a right to hire who they want, how they want, when they want. 
That anti business talk is like we live in China or something.

The rich fat construction companies that have all the money. Keep believing that, vote for politicians that are anti business so we all can belong to a Union and have free stuff from that never ending tax flow. Oh ya were does that tax money come from again?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

mrmike said:


> Just by your above posts really shows your mentality towards Unions. Your now bashing postal workers & teachers. As I said THIS is exactly what happened to the working world-guys like you finger pointing at Hard Working people !!!!!!
> 
> Can't you see this is how big business has gotten away taking everything away !! It is because of people like you,"followers" saying that those people are getting paid too much and shouldn't get those benefits.......
> 
> You Just Don't get it !! End of Story !!


Funny thing is I form my own opinion based on facts. You however base yours on emotions. Why is it that every liberal makes it personal? We can't be against unions and for teachers. Let's keep it factual. We are not attacking teachers or postal workers. It is the union that we are attacking.

Let's look at a few facts. Teachers unions make it impossible to get rid of bad teachers. If you have tenure forget about getting let go. Tell me that isn't the truth. And that goes for all unions. It is a nightmare trying to fire someone (FOR GOOD REASONS).

I brought up teachers due to the recent events in Wisconsin. The teachers unions pay a fraction of the percentage than the private sector for their retirement. All that the legislator wanted to do was increase it a little, still about half of what the private sector contributes. I know, I know, you are going to say that they want to balance the budget off the backs of hardworking teachers, but it simply isn't the case. They wanted them to pay the same as private sector workers. The gov't simply couldn't afford it.

You really need to look at the world around you, Greece, Italy and a lot of other "pro-union" countries are drowning in debt due to entitlement attitudes.

You are the one that needs to open your eyes to the world around you. Big bad corporations are, for the most part, a myth.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You really need to look at the world around you, Greece, Italy and a lot of other "pro-union" countries are drowning in debt due to entitlement attitudes.


I'd like to point out that, while what you mentioned is a factor, the other side of the coin is that their GDP has been shrinking due to decreasing population. The feeling of entitlement causes the spending to remain static and the drop in GDP pushes them into debt. The American population has continued to increase and even we have had some serious debt issues.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that our pot may be calling their kettle black.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

EthanB said:


> I'd like to point out that, while what you mentioned is a factor, the other side of the coin is that their GDP has been shrinking due to decreasing population. The feeling of entitlement causes the spending to remain static and the drop in GDP pushes them into debt. The American population has continued to increase and even we have had some serious debt issues.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that our pot may be calling their kettle black.


I would agree, however their contributions don't match that of their private sector counterparts

I also think that it's the lower GDP that has uncovered the coverup that has gone on long enough. It took the housing bubble to collapse for anyone to look at the reasons it crashed. We couldn't argue that everyone deserved a chance at buying a home...but that's what got us gov't mandated loans to those who couldn't afford them, then to bundled bad loans for sale, and then the gov't backing those packages. It was a shuffle game to hide and avoid facing the problem.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Funny thing is I form my own opinion based on facts. You however base yours on emotions. Why is it that every liberal makes it personal? We can't be against unions and for teachers. Let's keep it factual. We are not attacking teachers or postal workers. It is the union that we are attacking.
> 
> Let's look at a few facts. Teachers unions make it impossible to get rid of bad teachers. If you have tenure forget about getting let go. Tell me that isn't the truth. And that goes for all unions. It is a nightmare trying to fire someone (FOR GOOD REASONS).
> 
> ...


Wait a minute here- now you are calling me a liberal-the finger pointing just keeps continuing = Who are you?????????? ARE you better than a Liberal?? And just where are these facts from???? I have been around a while enough to see with my own eyes & ears. I think you are still wet behind them...............................


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

mrmike said:


> Just by your above posts really shows your mentality towards Unions. Your now bashing postal workers & teachers. As I said THIS is exactly what happened to the working world-guys like you finger pointing at Hard Working people !!!!!!
> 
> Can't you see this is how big business has gotten away taking everything away !! It is because of people like you,"followers" saying that those people are getting paid too much and shouldn't get those benefits.......
> 
> You Just Don't get it !! End of Story !!



Perhaps you should talk to the brothers & sisters of the Wisconsin Education Association Council:

Wisconsin's largest teachers union has a problem.

A union problem. 

http://m.jsonline.com/watchdog/noquarter/129700138.html


or how about this nice gem:


Unionized Union Staff Pickets Their ‘Union-Busting’ Union Employer

http://www.timesunion.com/default/article/Union-within-union-holds-a-protest-1352038.php


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Why would a steel workers union represent nurses. Unless it was for the money and bodies.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

I can see why you are stickin up for unions... youre an electrician. EVERY sparky I know does side work.. EVERY SPARKY. And they usually move much faster when side jobbing. Most plumbers are the same way. Why is it these 2 trades hold up the show the most in construction. Maybe being a drywaller makes me biased but I just call em as I see em


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Union guys are lazy in general and coddled into complaicancy. Union folks couldnt hang in the real world. :thumbsup: Nothing personal its just the way it is. Unions will be a thing of history within the next decade. They had their place in American history and did some great things for laborers in general but its time to move on.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

WoW I see I'm really in the dark over here:blink: Because the guys in the carpenters union are hard workers and do the mass of home building. A union co. builds the house much faster than there nonunion counterpart. Say 40 working days from slab to turnkey on a 1200sf home. We have a lot of military bases and that's all union or Bacon&Davis And believe me they run you hard So hard I'll say I don't think you nonunion boys could hang:no: In fact when the mainland boys come over and are thrown in with us a lot of them can't last the first day:laughing: Although not as hot it is much more intense because we are further south. There are a group of guys that travel the country do military work with ATH and AllStates Drywall, and some other big co. I know when I worked for ATH we had to hang at least 9 squares of siding a day to keep our jobs. I was the shortest guy on the crew, all the guys were at least 6'2" and taller because they could do more work because they could reach higher:whistling


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

What does 9 sq. amount to? We do numbers differently in drywall (sq.foot) or board foot. Were you allowed to hang more? The reason I ask is from what I saw was the opposite. Werent allowed to do more than an amount. Vinyl siders around here do a house a day easy and it dont matter how much time you spend on vinyl it still looks like


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

mrmike said:


> Wait a minute here- now you are calling me a liberal-the finger pointing just keeps continuing = Who are you?????????? ARE you better than a Liberal?? And just where are these facts from???? I have been around a while enough to see with my own eyes & ears. I think you are still wet behind them...............................


Yep, I am better than a liberal. I have no problem admitting that. Liberals think that they know how to spend my money better than I do. They think that they need to regulate and mandate everything. They don't believe in a true free market, and love entitlements. They use them to buy votes. They want to tax the rich beyond their fair share and love to attack anything Christian. We have a president who apologizes for the burning of a Koran and weeks before told churches they have to offer free contraceptives on their insurance.

Liberals love to pull the heart strings when substance is absent. You made the jump from attacking the organization to attacking people. No one attacked any individual or career, just the union in which the operate.

What facts are you referring to? And if we are fact checking, please hold yourself to the same request. I would like to know where your facts come from, other than you "being around for a while".

As for how wet behind the ears I am, sure I have a lot to learn in this life, anyone at any age who thinks they have all the answers is a fool. But I am 36, been married nearly 15 years, have three beautiful daughters (one nearly a teenager). I have been aware of politics since the Reagan era and have voted in every election since I was 18 (federal, state and local).

If me calling you a liberal hurts, that's not my problem. I didn't make it a dirty word. But if you prefer Progressive, then you are progressive...just let me know what you want me to call you, but in the end it's all just a mask for liberal. So I just cut to the chase. :thumbsup:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

iDAHOchris said:


> Why is it these 2 trades hold up the show the most in construction.


Electric and plumbing? I suspect that's more of a perception issue than a real one. Percentage-wise, those take much less of the total time in a build than many other trades. :thumbsup:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> WoW I see I'm really in the dark over here:blink: Because the guys in the carpenters union are hard workers and do the mass of home building. A union co. builds the house much faster than there nonunion counterpart. Say 40 working days from slab to turnkey on a 1200sf home. We have a lot of military bases and that's all union or Bacon&Davis And believe me they run you hard So hard I'll say I don't think you nonunion boys could hang:no: In fact when the mainland boys come over and are thrown in with us a lot of them can't last the first day:laughing: Although not as hot it is much more intense because we are further south. There are a group of guys that travel the country do military work with ATH and AllStates Drywall, and some other big co. I know when I worked for ATH we had to hang at least 9 squares of siding a day to keep our jobs. I was the shortest guy on the crew, all the guys were at least 6'2" and taller because they could do more work because they could reach higher:whistling


Your not in the dark your in the sunshine. Hawaii is the exception to almost every rule. :thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Your not in the dark your in the sunshine. Hawaii is the exception to almost every rule. :thumbsup:


True dat!


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

Why are we getting political?

I understand the connection between union and politicians and votes etc...but blatantly turning someones post into a political attack is kinda out of place is it not?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Mud Master said:


> Why are we getting political?
> 
> I understand the connection between union and politicians and votes etc...but blatantly turning someones post into a political attack is kinda out of place is it not?


You can't separate the two. It's one in the same. Liberals support unions and conservatives don't. I think it was out of line to say anyone attacked teachers and postal workers when it simply wasn't the case. So there was no turning anything to anything, just calling it like I saw it.


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## MikeyJP1980 (Sep 30, 2011)

I live in the southern states. What’s a “union” and what do they do?


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You can't separate the two. It's one in the same. Liberals support unions and conservatives don't. I think it was out of line to say anyone attacked teachers and postal workers when it simply wasn't the case. So there was no turning anything to anything, just calling it like I saw it.


I understand where it began than, as where I was lost before. 

Groovy love and all that jazz. Carry on...


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Ok I will chime in.

Heres my two cents.

Myth 1:

Union workers work harder than non-union workers

Kato I also have to disagree.Who did this survey? Goverment? Of course goverment wont say that non-union guys work harder.

I was in union myself when I worked for Lafarge...Sure wages were drastically better (around 45$/hour for journeyman,plus overtime,plus mileage).

I worked 120 a week. Heck 70 hours a week was fire watch,do nothing sit in prairies and observe grass thinking when will fire start(cuz you so bored).

Myth number 2:

Contractors dont want to pay decent wages. What is decent wage? and why should I pay decent wage?

We live in capitalism and what wage people are willing to work for is their personal business...if someone wants to grunt for minimum,below minimum its their choice,who am I to say no if they are applying and thats what I am paying?

If you go to customers house and quote 100$ for 5000$ job is customer going to say: "Oh I am sorry you misquoted heres 4900$" more?

No,he might feel bad for you(I repeat might,most of the time he will just brag how he conned "dirty contractor),but its good business for him. 

This doesnt mean I pay minimum,below minimum wages. I pay decent wages 15$ and up 27 and up for journeyman.

I offer no benefits and I offer no pension plan,but I do offer liability and workers comp so my workers are not worried for their lives on heights or busting a window by accident.

I also offer lunches and other small perks.


Myth 3 (directed to unknown who would whine about 20/hour)

You cant sustain family on 20$ an hour.

Sure you can,you can very well...how we say back in Italy(word-to-word translation):

strech your feet by length of your blanket(or in other words live by your means).

You dont need 3 cars and big house if you live on 20/hour.

If you are unhappy with 20$ an hour then get another job or look for better one.
If you are not happy with your life,change it,dont ***** about it.

And last but not least, 20$ is great wage. I would love to get paid 20$ an hour...think about it in prespective...union is a mob...mob that is trying to control market by setting the goverment official crap and advertising how saint they are.

But as any mob doesnt look for "hits" ,union doesnt look for gigs.

Gigs come to them. Gigs dont come to me or you. We have to work hard and advertise properly to get our gigs.
Therefore we can offer only 20$ an hour.

If I was getting offered goverment jobs where you can quote 10000 on 1000 job and they say yes without thinking,i would also pay my guys 100 an hour.
Unfortunately I cant...and as far as 20$ an hour and I would love that,think about it...company owner works 16-17 hours a day(labor,advertisement,paperwork) and rarely gets paid for most of that time.

Your employee gets paid regardless,his bi-weekly check is in a mail so he got guaranteed 40 hours or whatever it is...

Dont feel sorry for employees and def dont feel sorry about union...Union only screws people.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

I offer full medical dental and eye insurance paid mostly in full by the company, along with paid holidays and vacation. For a couple guys they even have work trucks and the other guys are more than welcome to meet and ride with them.

I have discounts on cell phone bills for those I don't provide a phone for, and membership into a credit union. Plus company paid training through ABC, and a 401k with company match.

My helpers make between $10-13, mechanics $18-25 and management (Foreman, superintendents, etc..) Are salaried between $62,000-75,000/year.

My guys don't ***** about their pay to often, but those rare occasions that someone has, I happily remind them that their pay includes all of the above. Added together all those benefits mean an extra $8-$12/hr above their hourly pay, and if they'd like to forfeit all those benefits for a bump in pay and provide all of that themselves than let's talk.

Never had anyone take me up on it.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Yeah, because no one that works with his hands deserve to make a middle class wage rate.


The wage rate would be determined naturally by the competition in the market, it has nothing to do with working with your hands or middle class wages. But if you think unions are necessary for everyone to make a decent living you are entitled to your opinion.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Mud Master said:


> I offer full medical dental and eye insurance paid mostly in full by the company, along with paid holidays and vacation. For a couple guys they even have work trucks and the other guys are more than welcome to meet and ride with them.
> 
> I have discounts on cell phone bills for those I don't provide a phone for, and membership into a credit union. Plus company paid training through ABC, and a 401k with company match.
> 
> ...


 You been in business probably 30 years more than me :laughing:
Thats all fine and dandy and I would love to offer this to my guys but if I do,I will be out of biz in no time and only create another 5 welfare checks for the goverment...

Probably four though,I would rather wash toilets than take welfare.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

TheItalian204 said:


> honestly lets do some math here...
> 
> 27 an hour and 4 goes into taxes. (so 23 hourly net)
> 
> ...


So in your opinion you should have to work a 60 hour work week to make a living wage?

And you do not include health care insurance cost, in Canada it is an afterthought, here it is a very high monthly expense.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> So in your opinion you should have to work a 60 hour work week to make a living wage?
> 
> And you do not include health care insurance cost, in Canada it is an afterthought, here it is a very high monthly expense.


I understand but I am not talking about your particular case,I am talking about what I offer and what unions offer around here.

I gave reply in similar note to DWB,35$ over here is HUGE in Hawaii 20-27 is nothing.

And no in my opinion you dont have to,but whats wrong with 50 hour week?you sign up to work 50 hour week anyway when you work for me...and you still break 4k a month :blink:..


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

TheItalian204 said:


> honestly lets do some math here...
> 27 an hour and 4 goes into taxes. (so 23 hourly net)


I find this odd:blink: Because everyone I know from Canada always spoke about how much more the taxes were there than here.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> I find this odd:blink: Because everyone I know from Canada always spoke about how much more the taxes were there than here.


yea there are more taxes...You still losing 32k on 100k salary,thats quiet a bit i think :blink:


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Well I just read four pages of union, non-union bashing. And a bunch of useless personal tit for tats.

Not one single post on how we can improve the situation for tradesmen. 

Hey, it's not for me. I've done my time. Soon to retire. I'm trying to improve the situation for the new guys. Or we will have no tradesmen left.

Not one single constructive sugestion. :sad:


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

katoman said:


> Well I just read four pages of union, non-union bashing. And a bunch of useless personal tit for tats.
> 
> Not one single post on how we can improve the situation for tradesmen.
> 
> ...


well I left you some suggestions on page 6 as far as testing...I am in I got 4 questions though:

1.Where we meeting up?
2.What time?
3.Where to take family and friends?
4.Who will be distributing weapons?


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

TheItalian204 said:


> I understand but I am not talking about your particular case,I am talking about what I offer and what unions offer around here.
> 
> I gave reply in similar note to DWB,35$ over here is HUGE in Hawaii 20-27 is nothing.
> 
> And no in my opinion you dont have to,but whats wrong with 50 hour week?you sign up to work 50 hour week anyway when you work for me...and you still break 4k a month :blink:..


Plumbers are rich... Just deal with it :laughing:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Ok, make right to work laws a multi-national mandate.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

katoman said:


> Well I just read four pages of union, non-union bashing. And a bunch of useless personal tit for tats.
> 
> Not one single post on how we can improve the situation for tradesmen.
> 
> ...


As trade wages continue to get forced down instead of up, no one wants to go into that line of work. Why would they want to do actual physical work and get dirty for less money than they can make selling used cars?

The Walmart attitude is coming into play everywhere now, the lower the price the better it is, very few give a rats ass about quality, everything is judged on price. We really are becoming a disposable society, unfortunately none of the things we dispose of are made here.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Ok, make right to work laws a multi-national mandate.


My license is good in any commonwealth country. Is this a bad thing?

This is NOT a political thing, it's for the trades.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

katoman said:


> My license is good in any commonwealth country. Is this a bad thing?
> 
> This is NOT a political thing, it's for the trades.


You are saying for the trades,I am saying for mine and your sake..prohibit 72% of uncertified contractors in Canada to work until they are apprenticing/became journeymen and those 4 questions I asked you jokingly will really fast turn into ugly reality.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Gabe, this is not something that would just be legislated and "as of tomorrow"........

This is something that would be put into place by Government and over a period of x years those who wanted to could apprentice, or challenge the exams. 

Or maybe some other method. The point here is to raise the bar for tradesmen. Today every HO watches a TV show and thinks he's a renovator.

Oh wait, I put bandaids on, then I must be a doctor. Get it ?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> As trade wages continue to get forced down instead of up, no one wants to go into that line of work. Why would they want to do actual physical work and get dirty for less money than they can make selling used cars?
> 
> The Walmart attitude is coming into play everywhere now, the lower the price the better it is, very few give a rats ass about quality, everything is judged on price. We really are becoming a disposable society, unfortunately none of the things we dispose of are made here.


As the wage rate drops people leave the trades, then once labor supply is low the wage rate rises for those who are skilled, unions and government regulation just disrupt the natural balance.

Yes, everyone wants lower prices because it improves their standard of living, allowing them to buy more crap. Can't see unions changing that.



> Gabe, this is not something that would just be legislated and "as of tomorrow"........
> 
> This is something that would be put into place by Government and over a period of x years those who wanted to could apprentice, or challenge the exams.
> 
> ...


Well as North America progresses towards socialism and eventually becomes communist I think you will get your wish. :laughing:


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

katoman said:


> Gabe, this is not something that would just be legislated and "as of tomorrow"........
> 
> This is something that would be put into place by Government and over a period of x years those who wanted to could apprentice, or challenge the exams.
> 
> ...


Of course I get it..and anyone who would think I dont care for trades is wrong(not directed to you).

Of course I care...monopolized market consisting of journeymen and apprentices only will drive up the rates,driving up the salaries and the quality.
Heck you will finally have to put in more than 50% of yourself to beat someone's quality...
I agree with you and one thing among us(and toughest thing for myself )is apathy...85% of masonry contractors in neighborhood do substandard work. 
So it only takes that much effort of you to beat them.Just do up to par work and make it look great to customer's eyes. Not many true craftsmen left who will eyeball plumb stucco wall from non-plumb one or ones who will actually complain about mortar on the brick. Spirit of true trades competition is gone.Maybe because true competition is slowly dying away.

But I just dont see goverment doing any changes,it might happen after me and you die,but I dont think anytime soon.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Well as North America progresses towards socialism and eventually becomes communist I think you will get your wish. :laughing:



Why do you see this as socialism? Is it not required for doctors to be tested and licensed before they can work?

Follow that thinking, and the trades may once again become "an honorable proffesion". (in the eyes of the public) We tradesmen already know this :thumbsup:


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Condensed courses for the guys that have lots of hours/experience would be a pretty good start . Say a 3 month class to cover 4 yrs. I do it in a second


I actually want to take the schooling, I know there is lots i would learn I can't afford to take that much time off though.

I have a family of 5 to support.

I


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

hughjazz said:


> Condensed courses for the guys that have lots of hours/experience would be a pretty good start . Say a 3 month class to cover 4 yrs. I do it in a second
> 
> 
> I actually want to take the schooling, I know there is lots i would learn I can't afford to take that much time off though.
> ...




Good idea. And that time spent in school should be subsidized somewhat by goverment.

Or night classes?


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

katoman said:


> Good idea. And that time spent in school should be subsidized somewhat by goverment.


Thats good idea...Night classes could really suck for some...some people work 10-12 hour days and are also drained by end of 8 hour day


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Why do you see this as socialism? Is it not required for doctors to be tested and licensed before they can work?
> 
> Follow that thinking, and the trades may once again become "an honorable proffesion". (in the eyes of the public) We tradesmen already know this


Its already an honorable profession, you just think that the world sees you as a bottom feeding ditch digger, they don't, trades are respected.

In an open market place you are only as good as the work you perform and the way you conduct your business. I don't want to pay an annual licence fee, I don't want to wait to have all my work inspected, I don't want to pay more in taxes to pay another fleet of government workers to overlook the licencing of my industry.

My wage rate is determined by me for the work I perform. I don't find myself in a race to the bottom against every other hungry installer fighting for the low-hanging fruit.

More government barriers to entry cause a growth in the grey market, more trunk slammers. More regulation artificially drives up the price of my industry, which often times is a "luxury good" in turn shrinking the market.

Like it or not we live in a pretty socialist country, the government dictates a lot of what you can and can't do. You can't even "buy" property, you can only pay for the right to rent it from the government.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Good idea. And that time spent in school should be subsidized somewhat by goverment.


Oh yeah because the government paid for the doctors to attend medical school.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> Oh yeah because the government paid for the doctors to attend medical school.


Well the goverment doesnt offer you 300k a year when you graduate do they now?:whistling

Besides doctors dont cut people for 40 years until legislation comes around and makes them get education.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

you know what cracks me up about unions, when they strike in the winter with picket signs complaining about wages and benefits. Yet they are wearing the absolute finest in winter weather gear.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Well the goverment doesnt offer you 300k a year when you graduate do they now?


If it was that easy we would all be fvckin doctors.:laughing:


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Oh yeah because the government paid for the doctors to attend medical school.


Well maybe some sort of loan, like they do now for universitys students?

How about a positive idea.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> If it was that easy we would all be fvckin doctors.:laughing:


If it was easy doctor wouldnt call me to stucco his house :laughing: :no:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Well maybe some sort of loan, like they do now for universitys students?
> 
> How about a positive idea.


We already have that in Ontario, for both full time and part time students of all ages. Provided you don't make over X amount of dollars. Look up OSAP.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> If it was easy doctor wouldnt call me to stucco his house


Yes he would, it's called opportunity cost. Just like how people are perfectly capable of cleaning their houses, mowing their lawns and shoveling their own drive ways. Its cheaper to pay someone else to do it than give up their valuable time.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> Yes he would, it's called opportunity cost. Just like how people are perfectly capable of cleaning their houses, mowing their lawns and shoveling their own drive ways. Its cheaper to pay someone else to do it than give up their valuable time.


I doubt its only reason he calls me...you sure can also say there is opportunity cost in going to doctor...I can cure myself from my bacterial cold but i want some prescription antibiotics.

And chances are he will **** his house 8 times out of 10 and gets me to fix it for twice the price.:laughing:

You know that this debate is useless...we talking what came first chicken or egg...

Now to mention that comparing me to floor mopper,grass cutter or snow removal service is half joke on its own


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Inner, yup, know that.

We were talking about how to help guys who are already in the trades take the necessary time off to upgrade their education so they could write their exams.

Thanks. I wonder if any of those programs that are already in place would apply to this kind of situation.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> I doubt its only reason he calls me...you sure can also say there is opportunity cost in going to doctor...I can cure myself from my bacterial cold but i want some prescription antibiotics.
> 
> And chances are he will **** his house 8 times out of 10 and gets me to fix it for twice the price.
> 
> ...


Relax, you said "if it was easy" in your hypothetical situation. My response was ceteris paribus of your example.

Now in the real world you work in a SKILLED labour position, so the reason someone pays for your services is a COMBINATION of skill and opportunity cost.

It is not a chicken or egg debate, it is factual.



> Inner, yup, know that.
> 
> We were talking about how to help guys who are already in the trades take the necessary time off to upgrade their education so they could write their exams.
> 
> Thanks. I wonder if any of those programs that are already in place would apply to this kind of situation.


 If you are an apprenticing tradesman you can collect EI while you are at school. If you are laid off there are some options of going to school while on EI and part of your school will be subsidized....although the terms are strict.

If you want to enroll in a part time or fulltime school program OSAP is offered to those who don't make much money (on paper) and student bank loans to are always an option.

If you just want to take courses to tweak your skills you are on your own, but a community college night course runs 250-500 bucks for a semester...pretty darn cheap.

I've taken 5 years of university & 1 year of college and I constantly go to manufacturer training courses offered in both US and Canada on my dime. I attend trade shows, read up online and do everything possible to stay on top of my industry. This is how I separate myself from my competition. I don't need the governments help to do it.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Inner thanks :thumbsup:

So listen up all you Canucks.........there's no valid reason you can't upgrade whatever education you need to and go and write your exams.

Believe it or not, this WILL help you make more money. :thumbsup:

For our American brothers - are there similar things available for you in the US? Maybe it varies state to state.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I think now you can see why I dislike the idea of licencing all trades. If the low-voltage industry in Ontario had to be licensed tomorrow I would either be grandfathered or have to write an easy test...no problem. But then I have an annual fee, have work inspected and I still would have to contend with trunk slammers. The licencing puts the burden on the honest guys.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> Relax, you said "if it was easy" in your hypothetical situation. My response was ceteris paribus of your example.
> 
> Now in the real world you work in a SKILLED labour position, so the reason someone pays for your services is a COMBINATION of skill and opportunity cost.
> 
> ...


I am relaxed,did you see the smiley faces? :laughing:


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Inner, the current problem is that no one checks for licenses. And no one cares. That's what I'm trying to change, in my tiny way.

Hey MADD was nothing when it started. All it takes is the will of the people.

I hate to say it but Mike Holmes has at least contributed to making HO aware of all the hacks out there.

If no one does anything the trades will continue to decline. There are examples right here on this site of guys in every trade who do fantastic work. I'll bet they pretty much charge anything they want because few can do that level of work.

I'd like to see that level of work AS THE NORM. 

I'm such a dreamer. :laughing:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

In my beautiful dream there will still be hacks, still be quality workers, still be guys charging too much and guys charging too little...and the government stays the hell out of my business.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> In my beautiful dream the government stays the hell out of my business.


I totally agree with that :thumbsup: But I do believe the government should help with the education part. (as you said they do )

Seriously........it has occured to me to start a company where I would drive around and catch all the hacks and kick them off their sites.

Government funded of course....................:whistling


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

katoman said:


> I totally agree with that :thumbsup: But I do believe the government should help with the education part. (as you said they do )
> 
> Seriously........it has occured to me to start a company where I would drive around and catch all the hacks and kick them off their sites.
> 
> Government funded of course....................:whistling


 
Right now the gov't of Canada gives 4000 dollars in grants to apprentices, as well as providing EI while at tradeschool. Seems like a pretty good way to do schooling for a poor student.

I believe someone can write their IP if they have something like eight years in, there is a refresher course one can take in night school, I've known guys who have done it.

I also believe that the way to raise the bar is mandatory licensing for trades. This can establish a journeyman rate, and can cut down on the overnight "handyman" who built a deck once, who have just been laid off from their real job. (not to knock the handymen on here, just what these guys will call themselves unfortunately)

I have seen jobs done by characters like this, and some of the stuff is comical, even scary at times. When a HO hires some overnight "contractor" working on their home for 15 bucks an hour, maybe at first they don't mind because of the price, until they have to end the job because he's not showing up because he knows hes *****ed everything up. 

However that is one market, those shopping on price, not higher end where people just want a nice job and will pay for it. 

That is the only way I see wages coming up though, licensing.

If you didn't need certification to be a lawyer, or a family doctor, i'd bet these professions would not fetch the money they do, as there would be a market for unqualified cheapos. Just a thought.


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

katoman said:


> Why do you see this as socialism? Is it not required for doctors to be tested and licensed before they can work?
> 
> Follow that thinking, and the trades may once again become "an honorable proffesion". (in the eyes of the public) We tradesmen already know this :thumbsup:



Where do you get the idea that non union tradesmen are not licensed?


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

katoman said:


> Good idea. *And that time spent in school should be subsidized somewhat by goverment.*
> 
> Or night classes?



There's your socialism right there.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Huh? A buddy of mine worked for a company that was union and trained him in all types of flat roofing. He got laid off. After months of waiting for work, he got offered a job from a non-union company.
> 
> He was told he can't take that job unless he wants to pay back all the money they invested in him.


 can that really happen?


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

BC Carpenter said:


> Right now the gov't of Canada gives 4000 dollars in grants to apprentices, as well as providing EI while at tradeschool. Seems like a pretty good way to do schooling for a poor student.
> 
> I believe someone can write their IP if they have something like eight years in, there is a refresher course one can take in night school, I've known guys who have done it.


I've never found a place that will teach a refresher course,

I need to be registered as a first year apprentice to take any schooling around here.

There is no way to take the schooling in any manner other than the 4 yr program.

And I will add, the asshats that run the system are completely uninterested in assisting me get any schooling unless I get in the system as a 1sr yr student.

last year When I started up on my own, I debated going to school, I would have taken up to 6 months off, unpaid, unassisted, if I could get the 4 yrs of schooling in a row. But I got so p&ssed off trying to get some info from anyone in the province I gave up. Like I said, I'd like to get the schooling, I just have limited options. Realistically i'd be in favor of mandated red seal carps. If that happened, the schooling opportunities would appear for us guys that have the experience, but not the schooling


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

katoman said:


> Well maybe some sort of loan, like they do now for universitys students?
> 
> How about a positive idea.




Whatever happened to on the job training?


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

...


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## ECSOWNER (Jul 25, 2011)

Ah what the hell, I'll join this pissing match.

I have been on both sides of the fence. I worked for a non union builder for 6 years. I was taught by my foreman and 2 other carpenters. I learned a lot from them. I learned some great tips, but I learned the most from on the job experience. It was a great learning experience, but the pay never added up with that experience.

Joined the union in 06, started out at 50% journeyman pay, bennies, and pension. I had to go to hammer school to get to my journeyman card. I learned a hell of a lot more at hammer school than my foreman could of ever taught me. What my foreman taught me wasn't wrong, but he could only teach me what he knew. When the economy was good, things were great. Once it tanked, so did work. I worked a total of 680 hours in 2010, and there was nothing the Carpenters District Council could do for me. One problem I had with the union was I have a bust your ass work ethic. It runs in my family, you give a n honest 8 and enjoy the check. Some guys said I worked too fast, too hard. I need to sit down and take a break more often, and take a longer lunch. Sorry, not for me. Another problem I have with the CDC is that it is run like a dictatorship. The president does as he pleases, doesn't care about what member say, and member cant vote him out. He also with drew from the AFL-CIO, and started an electrical division giving carpenter union cards to non union electrical contractors and investing our due money into that division while members are losing their homes. That's when I got out, and went out on my own.

Would I be able to do what I am doing today with out the union training I had, probably, but not at the skill level I do it at. I did side jobs non union, and union. Bills don't stop and the stomach needs food. Are there skilled non union carpenters, yes, are there hacks, yes. But same goes for the union side also. Some just care about that check and don't take pride in their work.

Would I join a union as a business owner? No, and the reason being, I like to run my company my way, and hire who I want. I don't want someone to set rules for me, and send me a 50/50 short at hard working carpenter, or a lazy hall jockey that just wants a check. They do have a great training program, but there rules I refuse to play by.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

On the job is where the learning really happens.


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

hughjazz said:


> I've never found a place that will teach a refresher course,
> 
> I need to be registered as a first year apprentice to take any schooling around here.
> 
> ...




Hmm I have no idea about your area..Here the local school offering an IP refresher course, check out BCIT. I don't know how long it is, 3 months? maybe even shorter.

I do know that the ITA here will allow you to write your IP if you have eight years or so in, you don't need to take any courses to write the test, just need previous employers to sign off on your hours.

Maybe come out this way and get it done...check out the ITA website for around here, not sure if its the same body out there


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

katoman said:


> Falcon - I know a lot of this thread ended up about union vs non-union. That's not what I'm trying to discuss here.
> 
> I'm trying to discusss and explore ways to up the bar for tradesmen.
> 
> ...



And as I've already said you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You seem to be stuck on the idea that no one can raise his own bar unless he's in a union. It takes ambition and motivation if you want to improve your situation. It's that simple. I acme to the US 30 yrs ago with $1000 in my pocket and I started out making $8 hr. I wanted more than that so I took it upon myself to do whatever it takes to move up and soon realized that the only way to do that was to be my own boss and write my own check. No union or govt help needed.


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

:blink:


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Where did you come from and where are you at:blink:


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

BC Carpenter said:


> :blink:


:blink::blink:


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> There is a Mitsubishi plant in Bloomington Il that has flourished while GM and Chrysler struggled, and they are union, the same UAW that GM and Chrysler have.



Maybe it's because management didn't let the unions walk all over them like GM and Chrysler did with outrageous pensions, wages and eternal benefits.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

falcon1 said:


> Maybe it's because management didn't let the unions walk all over them like GM and Chrysler did with outrageous pensions, wages and eternal benefits.


They have the same union contract.


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> And this is why the middle class is shrinking at an incredibly swift rate in this country.
> 
> Keep up the good work.



The middle class is shrinking under the increased taxation and regulation that's driving them into poverty.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

I would like to see some of the contractors here that scream no union get awarded a contract for a high rise, I bet not a single one of them could man the job.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Hey Bird man1 what part of the world are you in:blink:


Oh I'm up here in the north east:whistling Massachusetts is where I call home base, Thanks for asking DWB








:laughing:


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

BC Carpenter said:


> Or work for better money.


That's the best way to get ahead. Many people seem to put the cart before the horse by starting a family before they can support one. Then they whine about " a living wage". When I first came here I rented a 1 bedroom apt and my wife and i slept in a sleeping bag for a year until I could afford a bed and finally some furniture. Kids came much later.


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Where did you come from and where are you at:blink:



You talkin' to me?


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> :blink::blink:


:blink::blink::blink:


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> They have the same union contract.



Maybe it's poor management or the Mitsu workers are not as lazy as the GM or Chrysler workers. :laughing:

I doubt Mitsubishi has the exact same contract as the other 2. Maybe wage wise but not the bennies. That's what bankrupted the big 3.


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Oh I'm up here in the north east:whistling Massachusetts is where I call home base, Thanks for asking DWB
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I started off in the south (Houston) and went west to Ca before I headed east to Ma. Now I'm stuck here in Kennedy country.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

falcon1 said:


> Maybe it's poor management or the Mitsu workers are not as lazy as the GM or Chrysler workers. :laughing:
> 
> I doubt Mitsubishi has the exact same contract as the other 2. Maybe wage wise but not the bennies. That's what bankrupted the big 3.


The UAW was the least of the automakers problems, and it was only two, Ford never sought a bailout.

You really should consider knowing what you are talking about before you start spewing opinions, in the long run it makes you look a lot less foolish.


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> *The UAW was the least of the automakers problems,* and it was only two, Ford never sought a bailout.
> 
> You really should consider knowing what you are talking about before you start spewing opinions, in the long run it makes you look a lot less foolish.


Maybe you should take your own advice. :whistling

_GM is in deep trouble mostly because the United Auto Workers have festooned the company with rigid work rules and extravagant costs. The 2007 collective-bargaining agreement, for example, required the automaker to pay up to $140,000 in severance to a worker whose position was eliminated. And that is nothing compared to the enormous health-care costs these companies are laden with. The average cost of employing a worker at the Big Three, including benefits, was nearly twice that of Japanese automakers. No wonder the automakers are hemorrhaging cash.

*A bankruptcy judge would bring some reason to labor costs and create a GM that could emerge stronger. But the unions have a better idea. They plan to use taxpayer money to fund their juicy compensation.* And they know they can count on Obama and the Democrats to help them. All told, organized labor contributed over $74 million in the 2008 campaign cycle, 92 percent of that went to Democrats.

History will tell a simple story about GM: *Union bosses successfully negotiated sweetheart packages that destroyed GM's competitiveness.* If Obama was serious about creating an enterprise that can thrive in the future, he would have demanded that the union bosses resign along with Wagoner. Instead, it's payback time._

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/auto-union-drove-gm-trouble




_The Auto Industry / UAW Bailout is merely a political payback for the United Auto Workers union which has spent a lot of its members' money on politicians over the years. *The members of the UAW have priced themselves into oblivion by paying people too much to do menial assembly line work.* Average wages and benefits currently total about $69 an hour per GM worker_.

http://www.akdart.com/uaw.html


_But none of G.M.’s management miscues was so damaging to its long-term fate as the rich pensions and health care that robbed General Motors of its financial flexibility and, ultimately, of its cash._

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/opinion/10lowenstein.html?partner=permalink&exprod=permalink


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Why didn't you quote the articles about GM dipping into the UAW retirement funds?

Maybe because it reflects mismanagement that is not union caused?

I would never expect you to look at any resources that do not support your agenda.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I would like to see some of the contractors here that scream no union get awarded a contract for a high rise, I bet not a single one of them could man the job.


Been there, done that, non union division 9 contractor. I was on the project from the steel and girders fab'ing and setting structural exterior panels til the final punch out pointing up the walls.

Tenant fit outs, mixed use industrial and high rise condos were all I did before I got tired of dealing with the head aches of being so large, and downsized back into a general contractor at a size and project point I am happy with.

I wasn't one of the union bashers, but there are those of us here that have and can complete those types of projects.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

time to shut er down or what?


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I would like to see some of the contractors here that scream no union get awarded a contract for a high rise, I bet not a single one of them could man the job.


Well I dont do full renovations/brand new construction,but I have tackled big projects with just four guys...60000 sq ft of sand/cement and up....36000 sq ft of tile...another one 67000 sq ft of tile...

Been there done that...having more manpower doesnt mean having more brains.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

TheItalian204 said:


> Well I dont do full renovations/brand new construction,but I have tackled big projects with just four guys...60000 sq ft of sand/cement and up....36000 sq ft of tile...another one 67000 sq ft of tile...
> 
> Been there done that...having more manpower doesnt mean having more brains.


Heres a contract for the exterior on a twenty five story building, you have ten days to have 30 guys on the job and ready to work, what are you going to do?


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Heres a contract for the exterior on a twenty five story building, you have ten days to have 30 guys on the job and ready to work, what are you going to do?


Why thirty guys? who said what thirty guys can acomplish in 10 days cant be accomplished by 4 guys in say a month?

Besides the fact that I can save customer ton of money compared to union...what union charged 1000000$ I would charge 250000$ and my emlpoyees would have bonus to their checks to take their kids to Disney or pay their mortgage...


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

TheItalian204 said:


> Why thirty guys? who said what thirty guys can acomplish in 10 days cant be accomplished by 4 guys in say a month?
> 
> Besides the fact that I can save customer ton of money compared to union...what union charged 1000000$ I would charge 250000$ and my emlpoyees would have bonus to their checks to take their kids to Disney or pay their mortgage...


High rises don't work that way, you don't have a month, you have a week to get that floor finished, no matter what, and overtime is not a real option, it's spelled out in your contract.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

TheItalian204 said:


> You been in business probably 30 years more than me :laughing:
> Thats all fine and dandy and I would love to offer this to my guys but if I do,I will be out of biz in no time and only create another 5 welfare checks for the goverment...
> 
> Probably four though,I would rather wash toilets than take welfare.


Ahh but you can my Italian Canadian friend.

I CHOOSE to pay the majority of the health insurance and match their retirement, you don't have to. You can just offer it through your company employee paid.

what your offering to them even if they pay part or all of it is a lower discounted group rate. They get it cheaper than individually because you have a "group".

Same with a retirement fund. Your offering a place for them to put away for their future out of their pay instead of trying to do it themselves.

Whether you would choose to ever help them would be up to you.

I don't pretend to know how the Canadian health insurance game works and I'm certainly not trying to convince you to do it. Just wanted you to know if your ever interested in providing those benefits, but are scared you'll go broke doing it you can with little to no out of pocket expense while still offering your men something better than they would get on their own.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> High rises don't work that way, you don't have a month, you have a week to get that floor finished, no matter what, and overtime is not a real option, it's spelled out in your contract.


Ok so we are tiling the highrise floor? I thought you were talking exterior...sure,how many sq ft? give me example.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Mud Master said:


> Ahh but you can my Italian Canadian friend.
> 
> I CHOOSE to pay the majority of the health insurance and match their retirement, you don't have to. You can just offer it through your company employee paid.
> 
> ...


I am looking into it and I will offer it at some point..maybe another 2-3 years down the road when work is pouring out of arse because name is established...for now I will thug it out and work hard.

I do care for people and I do want them to have retirement fund...not everyone knows how to save,but I would prefer having established name first.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

TheItalian204 said:


> Ok so we are tiling the highrise floor? I thought you were talking exterior...sure,how many sq ft? give me example.


You're finishing the outside of the building, be it Dryvit or whatever, the footprint of the building is 1200 feet by 120 feet, every unit has at least one balcony, and you have to finish each floor in a week.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> High rises don't work that way, you don't have a month, you have a week to get that floor finished, no matter what, and overtime is not a real option, it's spelled out in your contract.


He is right here.

You can take longer, but the first couple Weeks run the risk of daily fines per the contract from the GC/CM.

After a short period and your still behind you'll just be thrown off for failure to perform, get the fines taken out of your requisitions up until that point and be charged the difference between the new contractors price and your original one to complete it.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> You're finishing the outside of the building, be it Dryvit or whatever, the footprint of the building is 1200 feet by 120 feet, every unit has at least one balcony, and you have to finish each floor in a week.


Yea but each floor in a week is nothing.:blink:..floor works out to about 11000 sq ft given that its 12 level building...I can always get couple extra guys,all I need to do is basically pick up my phone...

Work 15 hour days come out smelling like a rose.

End of story.

Have you seen how fast EIFS works?:blink:


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Mud Master said:


> He is right here.
> 
> You can take longer, but the first couple Weeks run the risk of daily fines per the contract from the GC/CM.
> 
> After a short period and your still behind you'll just be thrown off for failure to perform, get the fines taken out of your requisitions up until that point and be charged the difference between the new contractors price and your original one to complete it.


Yea i understand that...but if GC is in clear state of mind he will hire me for 400000$ and waits a month instead of hiring union and paying 1.400.000 for example.

When you save a million you dont shout much about deadlines..trust me I know it on my experience.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

TheItalian204 said:


> Yea but each floor in a week is nothing.:blink:..floor works out to about 11000 sq ft given that its 12 level building...I can always get couple extra guys,all I need to do is basically pick up my phone...
> 
> Work 15 hour days come out smelling like a rose.
> 
> ...


You can't work 15 hour days, it's in your contract, no overtime is allowed on this jobsite.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> You can't work 15 hour days, it's in your contract, no overtime is allowed on this jobsite.


Fine no overtime allowed? Then I will jam the contract to the sky,if I land the job I will pick up my phone and call the guy who has 30 guys...make 200.000 in the middle...you know whats that called my friend? good business...


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

TheItalian204 said:


> Yea i understand that...but if GC is in clear state of mind he will hire me for 400000$ and waits a month instead of hiring union and paying 1.400.000 for example.
> 
> When you save a million you dont shout much about deadlines..trust me I know it on my experience.


A high rise is not built by a GC, and deadlines in that type of work is everything, if you don't complete your work it holds up ten other trades, are you prepared to pay for that hold up out of pocket? It's in your contract that you are liable to.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> A high rise is not built by a GC, and deadlines in that type of work is everything, if you don't complete your work it holds up ten other trades, are you prepared to pay for that hold up out of pocket? It's in your contract that you are liable to.


I dont work for developers if thats what you are trying to point out.

I only work for spec homes/custom home GC and a lot of residential...

I also do some schools and did hospital this summer...


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

All of you guys who are union supporters especially you Spider,missing one single point...

Point is,most of stuff is just good business...

I dont make underage kids work for me. I dont make anyone work for me forcefully either.

Everybody works because they want to. Masons are in dire need,if someone was offering better they would've quit.

And there is nothing wrong in doing good business and screwing over the union...anyday,anytime...

Dont tell me unions are innocent and nice...Dishonest people from my country,butt****ed those unions for 40 to 50 years making sure particular contractors get particular contracts and you know what I am talking about.

So if union were innocent and werent wetting their beak,they would not have let themselves to get butt ****ed...

Dont even open my mouth on this ****,I got relatives down in Jersey and I know how ST. Union do their business...

I am done with this bs thread,you guys can fight here,only waste of nerves and make myself look like a dick...


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

I'm just trying to point out to some of the members here what it really takes to do some of the work they would probably never attempt to do, but feel the need to throw their disdain on those that actually do it.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

falcon1 said:


> You talkin' to me?


Well you were the only one on this here thread that didn't have a location listed, but thanks for filling it in:thumbsup:


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I'm just trying to point out to some of the members here what it really takes to do some of the work they would probably never attempt to do, but feel the need to throw their disdain on those that actually do it.


But what about those of us who have actually done it


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## finakat (Jun 7, 2011)

Okay, not that I'm trying to make this the "end all, be all" reply but, many of you guys have valid points here and are very passionate about what you're saying on both sides of the fence..

I'm not pro-union or anti-union
I used to be an apprentice in the Bricklayers Union Local 4, New Jersey

My experience with the union was a very short one to say the least. I met a guy who told me he could get me in and to call him when I was filling out the app. He never responded or gave them the heads up about me, but they gave me my drug test, and they took me anyway. They interviewed me, I dropped 4 names, one of them being my boss at the time who was an old bricklayer, and they let me in. I went to full time 40 hrs/week trade school for 3 months, pre-union training. It was a damn good school, we used special "mud" that had way to much lime in it, so it would never really set. We would literally build walls all day and knock them down. then start over. They made us work very hard and taught us "the game", and made it very clear that the unions did not have much pull anymore, and they said "do not walk around, or milk the clock...years ago, the unions were stronger - well we used to walk around a little bit..but nowawadays..don't you dare."

I finished school, and waited for them to call me to find me a job. After 4 weeks, I said forget it, no use getting spoiled now when that union is on its way out anyways. Now, that Bricklayers' local was 92% unemployed at that time, and as you all know, commercial and big union projects don't use brick very much anymore, so the union bricklayer was not a very bright future. I can't speak for those of you who are plumbers and electricians or such, but I have no regrets leaving the union and I went back to working for my non-union carpentry-construction-remodeling-based companies, learning work that will still be very prominent for years to come.

The Bricklayer Journeyman in NJ get 38.75 per hour, not counting their benefit package, annuity, pension, e.t.c.

I currently make $15.00/hr cash, and work about 50 hours a week. I am 24, and I'm a "glorified" helper. I take home $750-850 a week. In New Jersey, 750 a week is enough to live on your own and even finance a decent car, but not very comfortably. 40k a year is what you need in Jersey to live on your own and have some kind of small car payment. Thats about the minimum. Its do-able, just not super comfortably. I still live home, and have an old chevy truck. No car payment.

You guys all have valid points. Yes, many companies rape the tradesman. Yes, union companies pay guys very fairly BUT, it is not realistic. I work 52 weeks out of the year, they work literally like, maybe 25, no kidding. 

I am all about paying tradespeople what they are worth. Seriously. Tradesman deserve good wages, HOWEVER - the union benefit package is ridiculous, along with the annuity and pension. Why can't tradesman just get paid good wages like the rest of white collar America - Screw the damn union benefits that are better than even the benefits that teachers get, and forget your stupid ass pension. If it weren't for the benefits and pension - ALL OF THOSE UNION GUYS WOULD PROBABLY STILL HAVE JOBS 24/7/365.

In fact, now that we're on the subject - I do not believe in employers paying benefits for their employees - Why, so you can pay me a hell of a lot less, on the books, and tell me I should consider myself lucky? No.

A billion construction companies I have interviewed with tell me, we can give you 17.00/hr on the books, but with benefits - and that really costs us 25.00/hr! Well good for you Union Jack - how about you give me 25.00/hr, and I will just take care of my own benefits, and I will buy the benefits that suit my life style and what I need.

I'm 24, 6'1, 245 and solid...healthier than ever, and right now, I buy my own benefit package, and it is a "light" benefit package. I use no prescriptions, and I haven't gotten bed-ridden-sick since I was 14, literally. A 24 year old fitness freak helper does not need the same benefits as a 55 year old laborer with an aching back who has also 2 kids and a wife. Yet, if we all get the same ones we all have to suffer. Some day, when my body is falling apart, I will splurge half my hourly rate on my benefits.

There are no more need for labor unions this day and age. Most of the unions can trace their roots back to the 1800s, where they formed from ultra-violent groups of protesters that were attacking huge, vanderbilt and rockerfeller style capitalistic companies that worked mens' bodies harder than machines, 17 hours a day, payed less than minimum wage, and yep - with no weekend, (hence the union slogan "From the people who brought you the weekend"). Today we have labor laws, overtime, and e.t.c. No need for unions, they just keep high-paying tradesman out of work. If you are union and working I respect you, and have no issue with you. And be proud that you are getting paid properly.

Where im from in Jersey..(these are rough figures of course - it's all relative, give or take)

*THESE ARE ALL NON UNION PAY RATES

Helpers start at $10.00-$15.00/hr
Glorified Helpers $15.00-22.00/hr (ish)
Tradesman/Journeyman/Jr-Mechanic/e.t.c. $20.00-25.00/hr
Full Mechanic/Foreman/Super/e.t.c. $25.00-35.00/hr, up to $40.00/hr

There are mechanics and tradesman who make above $40.00/hr, but they are usually only plumbers and electricians, and some HVAC. It is not uncommon for a licensed non-union plumber to have a job for 45.00/hr out here.

Union workers almost always get paid much more per hour, its just a fact of life. I have a myriad of family members who were the big dawgs in the union years ago. It was just as all about politics back then as it is now. Back then, new construction was booming, and way more people were union. Almost everybody had an uncle Frank or a cousin Tony who could sneak them into the union. Residential contractors were much more scarce back then - just like all you oldschoolers say, "kids don't want to work anymore, nobodys handy these days, back in my day everyone knew how to work on their house" and blah, blah, blah. 

Well duh. College educations and white collar career paths were not stressed upon as much. Nowadays, you have an insane amount of overly built up areas, a big recession, and the house market has plummeted quite a bit. So no kidding, union work and new commercial construction is only a speck on the horizon right now. More and more homeowners now than ever are white-collar pencil pushers, and need residential rinky-dink GC's to work on their houses for them and their wives and kids. Right now, the residential non-union guys have the bulk of the work. Eventually, things may change again..who knows really.

It's all relative gentleman. It all evens out. One way or another.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

BC Carpenter said:


> you don't need to take any courses to write the test, just need previous employers to sign off on your hours.


Maybe that's my problem,

I'm 36 and I have worked for an employer for less than 6 yrs altogether.

For the most part I,ve been a sub or I have partnered with others


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Mud Master said:


> But what about those of us who have actually done it


Mm thanks so much for that post...I wasnt gonna post but if I cant handle 12 storey doesnt mean somebody like you cant...

Not like only union can provide 30 guys.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

BC Carpenter said:


> :blink:





Dirtywhiteboy said:


> :blink::blink:





falcon1 said:


> :blink::blink::blink:


:blink::blink::blink::blink:


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

finakat said:


> In fact, now that we're on the subject - I do not believe in employers paying benefits for their employees - Why, so you can pay me a hell of a lot less, on the books, and tell me I should consider myself lucky? No.
> 
> A billion construction companies I have interviewed with tell me, we can give you 17.00/hr on the books, but with benefits - and that really costs us 25.00/hr! Well good for you Union Jack - how about you give me 25.00/hr, and I will just take care of my own benefits, and I will buy the benefits that suit my life style and what I need.
> 
> I'm 24, 6'1, 245 and solid...healthier than ever, and right now, I buy my own benefit package, and it is a "light" benefit package. I use no prescriptions, and I haven't gotten bed-ridden-sick since I was 14, literally. A 24 year old fitness freak helper does not need the same benefits as a 55 year old laborer with an aching back who has also 2 kids and a wife. Yet, if we all get the same ones we all have to suffer. Some day, when my body is falling apart, I will splurge half my hourly rate on my benefits


That's the typical thinking of a young employee. You're invincible and nobody and nothing can hurt you.

I can't fault you. Until you get older and have a family or something serious happens like you fall off a ladder at home and break you're back your thinking won't change.

What I can tell you, is that you're thinking about provided benefits is sorely misguided.


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

hughjazz said:


> Maybe that's my problem,
> 
> I'm 36 and I have worked for an employer for less than 6 yrs altogether.
> 
> For the most part I,ve been a sub or I have partnered with others



Ah ok.well I guess best thing you can do if you want to go after it is get with a company, do the schooling as fast as you can, get any hours you've done already signed off. Maybe do your schooling in less than two years and get your time signed off on.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Mud Master said:


> Been there, done that, non union division 9 contractor. I was on the project from the steel and girders fab'ing and setting structural exterior panels til the final punch out pointing up the walls.
> 
> Tenant fit outs, mixed use industrial and high rise condos were all I did before I got tired of dealing with the head aches of being so large, and downsized back into a general contractor at a size and project point I am happy with.
> 
> I wasn't one of the union bashers, but there are those of us here that have and can complete those types of projects.


Yes, Mud Master, there are plenty of Non-Union companies that can complete large projects:

The largest Non-Union Construction Company in the US is KBR, Inc, formerly owned by Haliburton

Then of course this outfit is pimp slapping the unions in NYC:

http://www.flintlockllc.com/inside.htm

They put up midsize 10- to 30-story buildings, the kind of building where, along with interior finishing and renovation, the unions have been losing most of their market share. 


David Von Spreckelsen, vice president of Toll Brothers, said his company built the first of two towers at its Northside Piers project in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, with union contractors. But as construction costs escalated in 2008, Toll Brothers turned to a nonunion contractor for the second tower, prompting unions to protest with five giant inflatable rats. The company now has three apartment buildings under construction in Manhattan with nonunion labor.

http://www.tollbrothers.com/


Union leaders, construction executives and developers are closely watching a project in Long Island City, Queens, where H. Henry Elghanayan, a residential developer whose company traditionally uses union contractors, is expected to select a nonunion outfit to build a large complex with 700 apartments.

“If traditional construction managers that stuck with the unions start losing nine-figure jobs,” said one executive of a union contractor, who refused to be named so as not to further anger the unions, “that’s a game changer.”

Mr. Elghanayan said in an interview that he had yet to select a contractor. But, he added, “Everyone’s pressing to get total development costs down.” 


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/nyregion/19construction.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all


Now you can see why the Unions need PLA's to survive.


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## finakat (Jun 7, 2011)

Mud Master said:


> That's the typical thinking of a young employee. You're invincible and nobody and nothing can hurt you.
> 
> I can't fault you. Until you get older and have a family or something serious happens like you fall off a ladder at home and break you're back your thinking won't change.
> 
> What I can tell you, is that you're thinking about provided benefits is sorely misguided.


I'm fully aware of this. I was hoping nobody would misinterpret that part of the post. What I was saying is, I would much rather just be given the full range of the salary instead and/or have full control over the benefit package that my employee would so kindly assist in paying part of. Too often, you get robbed of all your pay for a benefit package in construction that will make your white collar friends laugh.

I think you're right, I will need a very generous benefit package someday and my priorities will change as I'm older. Hope you didn't take that the wrong way.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I would like to see some of the contractors here that scream no union get awarded a contract for a high rise, I bet not a single one of them could man the job.


they would be too busy jumpin thru hoops in which unions have laid down. I see a trend of certain trades stickin up for unions and some that cant stand. Overpaid plumbers and electricians like them... everyone else hates, except for some dude that lives in Hawaii (sorry you dont count as normal for the USA) besides who needs another highrise:whistling:whistling


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Why didn't you quote the articles about GM dipping into the UAW retirement funds?
> 
> Maybe because it reflects mismanagement that is not union caused?
> 
> I would never expect you to look at any resources that do not support your agenda.


I didn't say that it was just the unions but they are the main reason because those companies were not allowed to change with the times and adapt otherwise the unions would strike. The legacy costs running into the billions bled the companies dry the same way punlic employee unions are bleeding taxpayers dry. Unions would rather commit suicide than give up anything no matter how much sense it made. The only reason they can do that is because they own the democrats. Look at the recent Boeing extortion attempt by the unions to prevent them from opening a new plant in a non union state so they can remain competitive. Obama stacked the NRLB with union hacks and then they threatened Boeing with lawsuits. How's that for mob tactics? In case you missed it.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/09/news/companies/boeing_nlrb/index.htm


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> High rises don't work that way, you don't have a month, you have a week to get that floor finished, no matter what, and overtime is not a real option, it's spelled out in your contract.


There are hundreds of private companies that can easily handle that but they are forced to hire union labor if they want to bid or else. The private owners of these projects just don't want to deal with the consequences of using non union labor especially in the major cities like NYC, Boston etc. the fact that there are laws forcing employers on public projects to pay exorbitant union wages says a lot and it's taxpayer who are getting screwed.


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

Mud Master said:


> He is right here.
> 
> You can take longer, but the first couple Weeks run the risk of daily fines per the contract from the GC/CM.
> 
> After a short period and your still behind you'll just be thrown off for failure to perform, get the fines taken out of your requisitions up until that point and be charged the difference between the new contractors price and your original one to complete it.


There is no reason why a group of private companies cannot collaborate on a big project. Happens all the time in places where unions don't have the political muscle behind them. I've worked on such projects.


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Well you were the only one on this here thread that didn't have a location listed, but thanks for filling it in:thumbsup:


:thumbsup:


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

BC Carpenter said:


> Ah ok.well I guess best thing you can do if you want to go after it is get with a company, do the schooling as fast as you can, get any hours you've done already signed off. Maybe do your schooling in less than two years and get your time signed off on.


I can't see myself working for a company again,


If I can make it work, I'll eventually hire a journey man to be on my payroll.


I'll apprentice under my employee then when I'm in school He can keep the projects rolling along.

But for now, the journeyman ticket has had no real value to me as a contractor, other than the fact that I personally want to learn the info


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

falcon1 said:


> exorbitant union wages


I think you're getting carried away with your words:laughing:


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

This was on a friends facebook page & I thought this was a pretty good place for it...


A view of Nazi politics which could (should) apply to modern-day politics.

First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. 
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. 
Just remember you could be next!!!!!
Hitler was good at what he did. The people were blind and stupid just like most Americans today with their blinders on. 
Following leadership with blind and dumb acceptance is NOT what has made the United States of America great. Stand up and fight, ya'll.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

mrmike said:


> This was on a friends facebook page & I thought this was a pretty good place for it...
> 
> 
> A view of Nazi politics which could (should) apply to modern-day politics.
> ...


Great lets stand up and fight,we will start from commies,then we will move on unions,then Jews and then on those other threats...:laughing:


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

So what is this, jealousy. Why would anybody be so negative towards what path somebody else took in the trades? 
If you decided to go union good for you. If you didn't, good for you.

Personally if you can work union and get $40-50 hr with benies congratulations. I'm sure there are members on here that would like that kind of income, but just because somebody else is making it they want to tear them down.
I say promote any type of trade work.

How many members here do $50,000 kitchens vs $7000 kitchens?
So if you can't get $50,000 kitchen work start trying to tear down the guys that do?!

The more people out there that can make a good salary, the more people there are to hire contractors to do work. 
The more people out there that have their incomes driven into a downward spiral, the less money they have to hire contractors to do work.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

TimNJ said:


> So what is this, jealousy. Why would anybody be so negative towards what path somebody else took in the trades?
> If you decided to go union good for you. If you didn't, good for you.
> 
> Personally if you can work union and get $40-50 hr with benies congratulations. I'm sure there are members on here that would like that kind of income, but just because somebody else is making it they want to tear them down.
> ...


THANK YOU !!! This Sums it up and by far is the best post here !! Tearing others down is the big problem in this country- THE FINGER POINTERS, that have all the answers, that they got as followers, listening to naysayers of the Dark side!!
Jealousy hurts everyone !!!! Get rid of the madness & support each other !!!!!


I know it can't happen though as They are too far gone, but I still hope they really think about things & reconsider their hardline views, that they were led to!


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

mrmike said:


> Hitler was good at what he did. The people were blind and stupid just like most Americans today with their blinders on.
> 
> Following leadership with blind and dumb acceptance is NOT what has made the United States of America great. Stand up and fight, ya'll.


That's funny, that's exactly what most union members do!:laughing:


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

TimNJ said:


> So what is this, jealousy. Why would anybody be so negative towards what path somebody else took in the trades?
> If you decided to go union good for you. If you didn't, good for you.


It's quite simple Tim. The OP asked for opinions about joining a union.

The overwhelming majority of contractors here @ CT are Non-Union. 

The overwhelming majority of people responding to this thread are anti-union.:thumbsup:


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Union guys are lazy in general and coddled into complaicancy. Union folks couldnt hang in the real world. :thumbsup: Nothing personal its just the way it is. Unions will be a thing of history within the next decade. They had their place in American history and did some great things for laborers in general but its time to move on.


:no: thats a bold ignorant statement. As I stated earlier, I've worked union and non union, and there were lazy asses in both worlds, ditto for great workers. My guess is you've never worked union. You're probably a smart guy, don't make yourself sound like an idiot.:no:


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

TimNJ said:


> So what is this, jealousy. Why would anybody be so negative towards what path somebody else took in the trades?
> If you decided to go union good for you. If you didn't, good for you.
> 
> Personally if you can work union and get $40-50 hr with benies congratulations. I'm sure there are members on here that would like that kind of income, but just because somebody else is making it they want to tear them down.
> ...



I agree completely, paying people a decent wage is beneficial overall, as they have more money to spend into the economy. 


Paying a decent wage will also lead to more loyal and motivated workers IMO.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

d-rock said:


> :no: thats a bold ignorant statement. As I stated earlier, I've worked union and non union, and there were lazy asses in both worlds, ditto for great workers. My guess is you've never worked union. You're probably a smart guy, don't make yourself sound like an idiot.:no:


I would agree that I have never worked in a union. I would disagree that I am smart :laughing:. I also stand by my statement that the unions are on the way out. I agree that my statement was a bold, im going to replace ignorant with generalized, one. I have friends who work union and the stories are right there for the picking. Im sure there are good ones but the status quo undoubtably holds them back. 

I used to work for a guy who took a job as a union taper. He was directly told not to produce more than x ft. of product per day. Explain that. Or maybe the seven guys I drive buy all the time hold the earth up while one guy digs. Or the reason it costs 40 million dollars to build a 30 million dollar school. 

Not trying to ruffle feathers, its just my half a cent..


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## artiospainting (Mar 16, 2011)

I often wonder if those benches they sit on for 1/2 the year are padded. The unemployment package the get sounds worth it. extensions off use , It seams like a glorified labor ready. the fest question was if I were to join the union.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Hell ya there padded, taxpayers bought them. What Im reading sounds like majority gave there opinions and then a lil extra. There is no union here.Dont get me wrong,if I was offered 40 or more dollars an hr plus benefits yada yada yada, it would be hard to pass up. Doesnt exist around here so I must drum it up on my own:thumbsup: And yes it feels good to be independant and succesful . The bigger picture is this ITS CROOKED


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

iDAHOchris said:


> Hell ya there padded, taxpayers bought them. What Im reading sounds like majority gave there opinions and then a lil extra. There is no union here.Dont get me wrong,if I was offered 40 or more dollars an hr plus benefits yada yada yada, it would be hard to pass up. Doesnt exist around here so I must drum it up on my own:thumbsup: And yes it feels good to be independant and succesful . The bigger picture is this ITS CROOKED


What is this successful thing you speak of?? :laughing:


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> What is this successful thing you speak of?? :laughing:


 Work everyday ,being a wanted man. Its different where I live (thank God) and working everyday and keepin myself and help rollin feels good . No handouts ever for this cat so I get a lil pissed when I hear union talk Blah blah blah. Sorry to all sparkies and plumbers I may have offended but I hear they are starting night classes to get certified .... In espanol:whistling....it wont be long


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I would agree that I have never worked in a union. I would disagree that I am smart :laughing:. I also stand by my statement that the unions are on the way out. I agree that my statement was a bold, im going to replace ignorant with generalized, one. I have friends who work union and the stories are right there for the picking. Im sure there are good ones but the status quo undoubtably holds them back.
> 
> I used to work for a guy who took a job as a union taper. He was directly told not to produce more than x ft. of product per day. Explain that. Or maybe the seven guys I drive buy all the time hold the earth up while one guy digs. Or the reason it costs 40 million dollars to build a 30 million dollar school.
> 
> Not trying to ruffle feathers, its just my half a cent..


your taper friend is lying to you. when i was a union foreman it was my job to get as much production as humanly possible from the men. If someone was a slacker I sent them packing and got someone to replace them.


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

artiospainting said:


> I often wonder if those benches they sit on for 1/2 the year are padded. The unemployment package the get sounds worth it. extensions off use , It seams like a glorified labor ready. the fest question was if I were to join the union.


This "bench" you speak of is only as comfortable as your couch. It's not gilded in gold, nor is this "unemployment package" you speak of. The unemployment is based on the workers best quarter from the previous year-and-a-quarter, just like any other American is eligible for. It has nothing to do with the union. We don't get sweetheart packages to be unemployed. As for the extensions, again, you only get what Obama gives you.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

13 pages and still going. wow. I think that we should get rid of unemployment. All it is gov. welfare for the american working class. A cushion for those of us that need help because????? With no saftey net the contractors could run employees in the ground, but I think that more guys, with any net being gone would start working towards being there own contractor. Or become better educatated in thier chosen trade and rise to the top of thier crew, therefore becoming a better asset to the company, and if they are not treated according to what they feel they should be, will either go on thier own or find another employeer that sees what a great asset they are.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I don't want more guys becoming their own contractor. :no:


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

I don't have aproblem as long as they don't live in Michigan.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

VinylHanger said:


> I don't want more guys becoming their own contractor. :no:


I would agree. Unfortunately millions of people have lost their jobs since 08. When their unemployment runs out, a lot of desperate people become "contractors", etc.,:sad:


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## artiospainting (Mar 16, 2011)

Not all american are entitled to unemployment. If you hire people the government makes you have it or get a major fine. The employer pays a part. The government pays the rest. the extensions come from the government.Witch would be the tax payers.I just thought it was a good gig for the union people after they get don with there bench time. They work fairly well start slacking in 13 week so they can get laid off. Milk the system as long as they can. Work for cash wile collecting unemployment.I get these offers every year. They will tell you there giving you a good deal.Yes I will say no. Your getting a union gay. like after there communist precision they are equal to the next gay. the next gay works for his money He don't get it because he was there longer.He has to show value not seniority you mite have some respect for your senior people but not because they were there longer.It takes three union men to change a light bulb and they will brag they can do it better then you. the electrician cant rob the labor [ latter carer] and the labor cant rob the safety man [watcher]of there job and they wont walk faster then they can carry a Dixie cup full of hot coffee. They will set in front of your job with a sine because there rite to work. Like you don't have a rite to work.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

when your state became a right to work state, was there alot of problems getting the law passed? The reason I am asking is that there is small group in Michigan right now pushig for it, and the union is fighting hard against it. The city east of me passed a law that all jobs that are under 100,000 grand dont have to be preveiling wage. It was $5,000 before the preveiling wage took affect. The supporters of the law at the town meeting were theatened and tires cut. Along with verbal insults, so much the police were called in for the swearing of the law. This is a town of 30,000 people.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

d-rock said:


> your taper friend is lying to you. when i was a union foreman it was my job to get as much production as humanly possible from the men. If someone was a slacker I sent them packing and got someone to replace them.


 Were you using automatic tools or doing everything " By Hand". Ive heard some unions dont allow Automatics ( bazookas.boxes etc,)


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

In my area its run as fast as you can. Them drywallers are all skinny guys.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

iDAHOchris said:


> Were you using automatic tools or doing everything " By Hand". Ive heard some unions dont allow Automatics ( bazookas.boxes etc,)


Some unions limit production..


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Some unions limit production..


Those would be not in my area. Unless you count the automakers.:laughing:


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Gary H said:


> when your state became a right to work state, was there alot of problems getting the law passed? The reason I am asking is that there is small group in Michigan right now pushig for it, and the union is fighting hard against it.



The people of Indiana overwhelming elected like minded individuals to get this done. As was the case in Wisconsin, cowardly Democrat legislators fled to Illinois to delay the votes. The White House & Big Labor spent a lot of money fighting against the will of the people of Indiana. In the end they wasted a lot of time & money. In return, as was the case in Wisconsin, all they out of it was another public Pimp Slapping:laughing: 


With regards to Michigan, your Gov did a good thing:


http://www.michigan.gov/snyder/0,1607,7-277-57577-259453--,00.html


LANSING, Mich. - Gov. Rick Snyder today approved legislation requiring governments to make impartial decisions when awarding contracts for construction projects.

Senate Bill 165, sponsored by state Sen. John Moolenaar, prevents the state and local units of government from requiring companies that want to bid on construction, repair, remodeling or demolition projects to participate in a collective bargaining agreement and prevents discrimination against those that do not.

"This legislation is important because it gives everyone equal opportunity to compete for jobs," Snyder said. "Governments need to make decisions based on competitive bidding and value for taxpayer money.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

If they get rid of prevailing wage, that would be the final well deserved nail in the union coffers, uh, I mean coffin.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

It's a simple thing: Open competition for ALL construction projects funded by public funds.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

That was a good one.:thumbup:


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

BC Carpenter said:


> I agree completely, paying people a decent wage is beneficial overall, as they have more money to spend into the economy.
> 
> Paying a decent wage will also lead to more loyal and motivated workers IMO.


Paying a decent wage when it voluntarily comes out of your own pocket is fine but when you extort the wage out of taxpayers and business owners then it's not fine.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Brickie said:


> It's a simple thing: Open competition for ALL construction projects funded by public funds.


It makes sense to us, but the union would not be able to take money from the workers. I once ask where the working dues went to our BA, he said that it gives the working guys a seat in the gov. I said how many millons does it take to do that. He said as much as we can get.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

falcon1 said:


> Paying a decent wage when it voluntarily comes out of your own pocket is fine but when you extort the wage out of taxpayers and business owners then it's not fine.


Amen, to the death of davis bacon..


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Amen, to the death of davis bacon..



I love bacon but I wish it would kill Davis. :laughing:


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Some unions limit production..


Yes, as was the case here:

The Big Dig was the most expensive highway project in the U.S. and was plagued by escalating costs, scheduling overruns, leaks, design flaws, charges of poor execution and use of substandard materials, criminal arrests,[2][3] and even four deaths.[4] The project was scheduled to be completed in 1998[5] at an estimated cost of $2.8 billion (in 1982 dollars, US$6.0 billion adjusted for inflation as of 2006).[6] The project was not completed, however, until December 2007, at a cost of over $14.6 billion ($8.08 billion in 1982 dollars)[6]as of 2006.[7] The Boston Globe estimated that the project will ultimately cost $22 billion, including interest, and that it will not be paid off until 2038.[8] 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

Some interesting facts about unions and PLAs. 

http://www.plawatch.com/mythvfact


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

falcon1 said:


> Paying a decent wage when it voluntarily comes out of your own pocket is fine but when you extort the wage out of taxpayers and business owners then it's not fine.


in some cases this happens, for example the teachers union around here. Companies I worked for which were unionized, no one forced them to go union, and the union and management had a positive relationship. 

Can't believe all stereotypes and generalize because of the actions of certain large unions.

Besides wages in certain areas of north america are down the tubes, due to illegals and whatnot- there's your great future without unions, pay the immigrant labourers bottom line price, forget about making a decent living in the trades. 

Would it be all bottom of the barrell illegal/immigrant labour in the private sector? probably not, however I could push that stereotype.

Anyways, I wouldn't have any hold ups about working a union job. I've seen it both ways union and non-union.


I understand you and others don't like unions, that's fine. I can understand some of the reasoning, as I don't like some of the actions of the bigger unions. However that does not mean a union is a big nasty thing.

Anyways this could be argued forever, I honestly don't care that much, and can't put down a body that provides a decent working wage and benefits for working people. Bash them all you want, I already know your position, that's fine, I disagree

When it comes down to it, it's business-some unions are better to do business with than others, some use less than admirable tactics, however not all private sector organizations are all peachy and rosy and innocent.

tired of this thread, hope everyones night is going well


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Every non union contractor on these forums wants to see the end of union labor, it will eliminate the high end of the pay scale and allow them to pay half that and tell their employees they are being paid top dollar, because there will be nothing to compare it too.

I would also be willing to bet that as their labor expenses go down their prices will not, but their profit margins will go up.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Every non union contractor on these forums wants to see the end of union labor, it will eliminate the high end of the pay scale and allow them to pay half that and tell their employees they are being paid top dollar, because there will be nothing to compare it too.
> 
> I would also be willing to bet that as their labor expenses go down their prices will not, but their profit margins will go up.


You truely believe what you say or you just saying this just because?

No offence but this is one of most ridiculous statements I have heard in a while.

If us wanting unions disbanded had to do with amount of money we pay to our emloyees then everyone would be hiring illegals for cheapest labor.

Thats not what non-union contractors are concerned about.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Every non union contractor on these forums wants to see the end of union labor,


Nope, not at all. What we want is this:


Open competition for ALL construction projects funded with public funds. 

No rigged bidding i.e. Project Labor Agreements on public projects funded with public funds


It's that simple


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Brickie said:


> Nope, not at all. What we want is this:
> 
> 
> Open competition for ALL construction projects funded with public funds.
> ...


Thanks a lot for that post B. you hit it dead on.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

:yawn:


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## cairnstone (Oct 26, 2008)

Here in BC I have worked both union and non union and now self employed. I have seen large projects that are non union go over budget huge anounts. One main player here in town built are new convention center well they budget was just something they used as a guide. I believe the building was almost double the budget. But they keep getting awarded projects do to there donations to political offices.

We have had a fair wage policy in the past for government work. It was brought in by our NDP government( labour supported). The fair wage rules forced non union to pay more for labour and the unions were payed less. This ended up eroding the unions. When the economy picked up unions were still tied to a low $ per hour collective agreement. Where the overall rates were going up. 

Union companies here compete openly with non union many times on the same site. A union general may have non union subs. And a union is able to supply a larger amount of skilled workers than non union. I have been on sites where they have had to hire from the paper and craigslist etc. Well you end up with the bottom of the barrel.

The companies I worked for union have found nitches mainly in the industrial and civil area. Do to the type of work you do not have the compition as it is some what specialized.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Every non union contractor on these forums wants to see the end of union labor, it will eliminate the high end of the pay scale and allow them to pay half that and tell their employees they are being paid top dollar, because there will be nothing to compare it too.
> 
> I would also be willing to bet that as their labor expenses go down their prices will not, but their profit margins will go up.


 Is this a bad thing?


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

iDAHOchris said:


> Is this a bad thing?


I think the problem most people have with unions is that they have rigged the system in their favor through political corruption. They need those high union wages so that they can confiscate union dues from their members and bribe more politicians. How else could they afford to donate hundreds of millions of dollars every election cycle to their favorite democrat?

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

falcon1 said:


> I think the problem most people have with unions is that they have rigged the system in their favor through political corruption. They need those high union wages so that they can confiscate union dues from their members and bribe more politicians. How else could they afford to donate hundreds of millions of dollars every election cycle to their favorite democrat?
> 
> http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php


Think out of the box!! Think of the other side of the coin!!!

You don't think big Business has rigged the system in their favor thru political corruption and don't bribe politicians ???? They donate alot more than Unions & they have along with the dark side party, worked hard at it to convince people like you and others that Unions are no good , so more of their big boys can line their pockets some more, off the backs of the working people without nobody to fight for them!
!!

The union scale has set your scale indirectly some time ago when they could negotiate in good faith. That changed with replacement workers brought on from the Dark side politicians that were supported by big business. 

There is no fair negotiating anymore, because of this- and the anti-union propaganda they put out there to get the followers on board. 

Do you think Big Companies would, out of the goodness of their hearts,would pay their employees a good wage & benifits??? It is going by the wayside because there are so many "followers" that believe the opposite! 
Please, Think out of the Box!!!


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## BC Carpenter (Dec 28, 2010)

iDAHOchris said:


> Is this a bad thing?


 
Yes, hard working skilled people should be paid decently for their efforts.

That is a slippery slope, next it would be standard for an employer to have 10-12 hour days regularly with no paid overtime. Right back to the industrial revolution days. Hey why not hire 12 year olds and have them work for peanuts.

If you want people who will work for peanuts, you will not end up with the type of people you really want working for you.

Some people choose to operate based on bottom line price of what they will pay their employees, the thing is though (and they may not realize it) their customers are those that choose their contractor for bottom line price. Bottom feeders all the way down the chain.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

TheItalian204 said:


> You truely believe what you say or you just saying this just because?
> 
> No offence but this is one of most ridiculous statements I have heard in a while.
> 
> ...


So, Italian, how many of your employees are you paying $50-60hr with vacation, pension, health benefits.

In fact all the union bashers on here should be paying the same rate to their employees as the unions are paying. 
If you want an end to unions then pay your employees what union members make and you will have plenty of non-union workers working for you.
If you aren't willing to pay union wages then you are part of the problem in this country right now with downward wage pressures.
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, it is in the best interest of any business to have a customer base that is making a descent salary. If they have no money to spend, guess what, they won't be giving you any business and the more people that don't give you business the less money you make.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Brickie said:


> Yes, as was the case here:
> 
> The Big Dig was the most expensive highway project in the U.S. and was plagued by escalating costs, scheduling overruns, leaks, design flaws, charges of poor execution and use of substandard materials, criminal arrests,[2][3] and even four deaths.[4] The project was scheduled to be completed in 1998[5] at an estimated cost of $2.8 billion (in 1982 dollars, US$6.0 billion adjusted for inflation as of 2006).[6] The project was not completed, however, until December 2007, at a cost of over $14.6 billion ($8.08 billion in 1982 dollars)[6]as of 2006.[7] The Boston Globe estimated that the project will ultimately cost $22 billion, including interest, and that it will not be paid off until 2038.[8]
> 
> ...


What's that got to do with anything?
Sure if you had workers making $7.00 an hr it would have been cheaper. How much of the overun was material costs.
My sister lives right in the middle of the dig and plenty of unforeseen things come up when you bury your highway system, especially when you have to keep out the ocean. Minor details like that.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

TimNJ said:


> So, Italian, how many of your employees are you paying $50-60hr with vacation, pension, health benefits.
> 
> .


How many of my emlpoyees make 50/60$ hr?

None

How many of my emloyees deserve 50/60$ hr you think?

None.

You have to realise one thing(as union supporter) that most of non-union companies do not possess the great backroom deals with work pouring out of arse like union does.

Hence,we can pay only that much.As I mentined before if I pay all the benefits and etc+upper side of union wages I will run myself out of market.

I dont want to give this a political note,but ever considered why North American economy is in ****ter? Maybe its because of unions willing to pay 60k to people without high-school diploma to put plastic bumper together?

I seen enough of how unions operate(Including Italy),I am not hating on guys who are union,I am hating on system.

Union wage here is 34+bennies for journeyman.

I pay 27-34.(27 and up).


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

TimNJ said:


> What's that got to do with anything?
> Sure if you had workers making $7.00 an hr it would have been cheaper. How much of the overun was material costs.
> My sister lives right in the middle of the dig and plenty of unforeseen things come up when you bury your highway system, especially when you have to keep out the ocean. Minor details like that.


When union was building airport here,estimated 1.5 million dollars all in...then they came to goverment and said:

"hey we screwed up,we need 4.8 million more"

How do you underestimate by 2.5x is still mind-boggling to me.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

TheItalian204 said:


> When union was building airport here,estimated 1.5 million dollars all in...then they came to goverment and said:
> 
> "hey we screwed up,we need 4.8 million more"
> 
> How do you underestimate by 2.5x is still mind-boggling to me.


That's what happens when you take "low bidder".


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

TimNJ said:


> That's what happens when you take "low bidder".


Thats right...what if that low bidder is union?

Just one of the points I am trying to point out to you.

Trust me I am not hating on unions,I do want people who dont have ambition/desire to open their own companies make as much money as they can.

Truth is when you review unions,disadvantages and screws up they have are faaaaaaaaaar bigger than any advantages they may have.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Here unions build this subdivision from a farm field to a finished neighborhood. All infrastructure, streets, sidewalks homes from slab to turnkey all at a competitive market place price. Every year some of these models win awards in the parade of homes here on Oahu. The whole time every one is making a living wage:clap:Gee I wonder how it's done:blink: You remember Gentry didn't he die in a boat?
http://www.gentryhawaii.com/
Oh by the way the lazy union guys build the light green one in 60 working days from the time they walk on the slab to turnkey:whistling


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Here unions build this subdivision from a farm field to a finished neighborhood. All infrastructure, streets, sidewalks homes from slab to turnkey all at a competitive market place price. Every year some of these models win awards in the parade of homes here on Oahu. The whole time every one is making a living wage:clap:Gee I wonder how it's done:blink: You remember Gentry didn't he die in a boat?
> http://www.gentryhawaii.com/
> Oh by the way the lazy union guys build the light green one in 60 working days from the time they walk on the slab to turnkey:whistling


 Yeah. Farmers are building sub-divisions here:whistling


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Here unions build this subdivision from a farm field to a finished neighborhood. All infrastructure, streets, sidewalks homes from slab to turnkey all at a competitive market place price. Every year some of these models win awards in the parade of homes here on Oahu. The whole time every one is making a living wage:clap:Gee I wonder how it's done:blink: You remember Gentry didn't he die in a boat?
> http://www.gentryhawaii.com/
> Oh by the way the lazy union guys build the light green one in 60 working days from the time they walk on the slab to turnkey:whistling


I know at least 3 contractors in Winnipeg who build simlar homes,on regular basis,with non-union workers/subs who also win awards.

And I can assure you that they can get in and out in 45 days.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Here unions build this subdivision from a farm field to a finished neighborhood. All infrastructure, streets, sidewalks homes from slab to turnkey all at a competitive market place price. Every year some of these models win awards in the parade of homes here on Oahu. The whole time every one is making a living wage:clap:Gee I wonder how it's done:blink: You remember Gentry didn't he die in a boat?
> http://www.gentryhawaii.com/
> Oh by the way the lazy union guys build the light green one in 60 working days from the time they walk on the slab to turnkey:whistling


I always thought your state had no room to build, but from your posts I must have been misled.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

iDAHOchris said:


> Yeah. Farmers are building sub-divisions here:whistling


Where is here:blink: you have no location listed:blink:



TheItalian204 said:


> I know at least 3 contractors in Winnipeg who build simlar homes,on regular basis,with non-union workers/subs who also win awards.


 My point was all the workers make a living wage, oh that's right you really don't know what that is. Thats when you have the best health ins. available, when you get 10,000 a year vacation pay and you have 5.00 per hour put into your 401K on top of your hourly pay:laughing: 


TheItalian204 said:


> And I can assure you that they can get in and out in 45 days.


You guess they can but really don't know, I do know! I know how many hours each step of those homes takes.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> My point was all the workers make a living wage, oh that's right you really don't know what that is.


Sure i do. It's the latest scam all the lefty "Social Justice" goofs are pushing. It's all based on emotion with no basis in reality in the real world of business.:laughing:


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Idaho, USA. Its a state. Lotta farmer turn developer around here


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

iDAHOchris said:


> Idaho, USA. Its a state. Lotta farmer turn developer around here


That was here to until 2008. Now they are tearing them down again for the farm land.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Brickie said:


> Sure i do. It's the latest scam all the lefty "Social Justice" goofs are pushing. It's all based on emotion with no basis in reality in the real world of business.:laughing:


I fine it funny you speak of scam while in a Military Flight thingy:laughing: And I do know those guys get paid well:thumbsup:


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> I fine it funny you speak of scam while in a Military Flight thingy:laughing: And I do know those guys get paid well:thumbsup:



Members of the military are NON-Union:thumbsup:


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Brickie said:


> Members of the military are NON-Union:thumbsup:


I did not know that.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Where is here:blink: you have no location listed:blink:
> 
> My point was all the workers make a living wage, oh that's right you really don't know what that is. Thats when you have the best health ins. available, when you get 10,000 a year vacation pay and you have 5.00 per hour put into your 401K on top of your hourly pay:laughing:
> 
> You guess they can but really don't know, I do know! I know how many hours each step of those homes takes.


Its unfortunate we dont agree on this DWB(but I still like you :laughing.


I am just not as radical as you. I also live by my means. Every family is a small cell,cell in body of goverment. They more cells are sick,the harder illness hits the goverment.

When goverment's body(economy) is anemic and it keeps pumping iron(money) into it via capsules(unions) in only leads to temporary relief(temporary modest economics growth) and does not address the issue(inflation and devalvation of currency,limited availability of job vacancies and etc).

If we had to do what you saying and you are pro-medication type of guy(union) you would kill all the useful cells(small business).
We all know well 75% of contractors are small business with only couple of people on payroll and able to afford limited benefits for their emloyees. 75% of North American small business is just getting by making just enough.

Not everybody wants to eat iron from capsules or even worse sit on IV(welfare).


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

> Its unfortunate we dont agree on this DWB(but I still like you :laughing.


There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with people while having a civil debate.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Brickie said:


> There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with people while having a civil debate.


I am not that type of guy. As in my opinion of person does not change based on their views...

But a lot of people are and its unfortunate.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

TheItalian204 said:


> I am not that type of guy. As in my opinion of person does not change based on their views...
> 
> But a lot of people are and its unfortunate.


You mean you don't judge people based on their looks and thoughts?

Oh you and I are gonna tussle. How dare you accept people as they are :shifty:


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Well I like you too TheItalian:laughing:
I do believe living on this rock of less that 1,000,000 people I have a scued vision of what the unions are doing. I have been doing my own thing now for over 2 1/2 years. I do aspire to be as great of a lot of the folks here. And I do know the unions are out for themselves first and foremost, getting richer and richer off the blood and sweat of their members Kind of like the Italian mafia:whistling


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

mrmike said:


> Think out of the box!! Think of the other side of the coin!!!
> 
> You don't think big Business has rigged the system in their favor thru political corruption and don't bribe politicians ???? They donate alot more than Unions & they have along with the dark side party, worked hard at it to convince people like you and others that Unions are no good , so more of their big boys can line their pockets some more, off the backs of the working people without nobody to fight for them!
> !!
> ...


OK Darth Vader. I'll give it a shot. Maybe I'll find that Mother Teresa was a union boss.


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Here unions build this subdivision from a farm field to a finished neighborhood. All infrastructure, streets, sidewalks homes from slab to turnkey all at a competitive market place price. Every year some of these models win awards in the parade of homes here on Oahu. The whole time every one is making a living wage:clap:Gee I wonder how it's done:blink: You remember Gentry didn't he die in a boat?
> http://www.gentryhawaii.com/
> Oh by the way the lazy union guys build the light green one in 60 working days from the time they walk on the slab to turnkey:whistling


You can't compare Hawaii to the mainland. You don't have to worry about competition.


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

Gary H said:


> I did not know that.


Everybody knows that the military is union. Look at the lavish pay and the all expense paid vacations they get to exotic locations like Iraq and Afghanistan .


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Brickie said:


> Sure i do. It's the latest scam all the lefty "Social Justice" goofs are pushing. It's all based on emotion with no basis in reality in the real world of business.:laughing:


So then you should be the last to complain if some other contractor under cuts your estimates since it's all about making money.
If he can do the job for 20% less than you, well you must be overcharging by 20%.

The unions don't make money from jobs, they make money from their working members paying into the big pot. 
I don't see any union contractors complaining about the money they make, so they must be happy with the readily available experienced work force that they can man up a large scale job without having to carry that workforce if there isn't a job. 
Seems like a smart business model.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

falcon1 said:


> Everybody knows that the military is union. Look at the lavish pay and the all expense paid vacations they get to exotic locations like Iraq and Afghanistan .


Pull down $100,000 and have your housing, medical, vacation time, higher education paid. 
Why do you think we have no need for the draft?


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

TimNJ said:


> So then you should be the last to complain if some other contractor under cuts your estimates since it's all about making money.
> If he can do the job for 20% less than you, well you must be overcharging by 20%.


Yes, it's called capitalism & it's about making as much money as you can. If someone like union bricklayers doing side jobs for cash undercut me, then they do. So what?? There's plenty of non-union work out here:thumbsup:





> I don't see any union contractors complaining about the money they make, so they must be happy with the readily available experienced work force that they can man up a large scale job without having to carry that workforce if there isn't a job.
> Seems like a smart business model.



Yeah, it such a smart business model that they need rigged Project Labor Agreements to survive against fair & open competition:laughing:


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Brickie said:


> Yes, it's called capitalism & it's about making as much money as you can. If someone like union bricklayers doing side jobs for cash undercut me, then they do. So what?? There's plenty of non-union work out here:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe in gov't work, but there are plenty of private jobs where the PM's wouldn't even consider anyone but union.
I know somebody who was in the PM side of all the casinos in AC. They would never have considered non-union. There was way too much money at risk. They knew the unions and the capability of their personnel to get the buildings up and operational as fast as possible.


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

TimNJ said:


> Maybe in gov't work, but there are plenty of private jobs where the PM's wouldn't even consider anyone but union.
> I know somebody who was in the PM side of all the casinos in AC. They would never have considered non-union. There was way too much money at risk. They knew the unions and the capability of their personnel to get the buildings up and operational as fast as possible.



:laughing::laughing::laughing:
Riiight! Unions and AC casinos go together like democrats and teamsters.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

falcon1 said:


> Everybody knows that the military is union. Look at the lavish pay and the all expense paid vacations they get to exotic locations like Iraq and Afghanistan .


You have no idea how much housing allowance they get over here:no: 



TimNJ said:


> Pull down $100,000 and have your housing, medical, vacation time, higher education paid.
> Why do you think we have no need for the draft?


This is why the working man can not afford rent over here, I wish they'd keep them all on base! If both are in and upper ranking they receive 4,800 per month for housing they live in all the most lavish neighborhoods in the nicest homes The Federal gooberment pays prevailing wage, no need for a union.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)




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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> The Federal gooberment pays prevailing wage, no need for a union.


Ain't that the truth:laughing:


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> *The Federal gooberment pays prevailing wage, no need for a union.*



Of course, like the union, it ain't their money.


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

If you're a union contractor, you're bidding in union forums where you can command 100+ dollars per hour for labor. There is no way this can be done in home remodeling and most smaller typical commercial work. It's as if APPLE had to fabricate Ipads here in the states, Steve Jobs said he would have to sell them for $6,000 ea..If people were willing to pay more, alot more, then maybe we could all unionize, in essence doing away with all the hacks b/c they wouldnt be ablt to run a positive business. Truth is, homeowners and small business owners would never go for it because in reality they are trying to get things done cheaper. In NYC the union jobs are JPMorgan HQ, Yankee Stadium (where i was a foreman  etc etc..


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## finakat (Jun 7, 2011)

All of you who are anti-union bash them as if they're dirty rich and milking the clock.

Out here in NJ they ARE standing standing around - on the UNEMPLOYMENT LINE. We take pity on them here cause we know they are barely getting by/starving. 

Are the union guys in your state working? Out here its a sad story. I was a young Apprentice in the union with others who were eager to learn a trade and we all left bitterly after working 2 months out of the year. What a joke. Union is dying here

You guys say they can just collect unemployment and do "evil" under the table hack/side jobs for cash as if that's the life. Haha. Maybe when you're a punk 24 year old jerk off like me

I don't how it works by y'all, but in NJ/NY the max unemployment is $500.00/wk PERIOD. That's the poverty line out here. If a hot chick from Jersey met a 35 y.o. dude at a bar and said, "what do you do? I collect 500.00/wk unemployment and I do painting or drywall here and there on the side when I can", she would think, "LOOOOSER!!!!"

I know the unions irritate people but cut the workers some slack. Be realistic. Believe me, karmas a ***** and the lot of them are suffering


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

its the same story here. there are a lot of union guys sitting the bench. there is just not that many big jobs where unions can win the bid, so that means too many guys are not working. its a shame anytime a skilled craftsman is sitting around instead of doing what they do best.

hopefully it all turns around and there is enough work for everyone soon.


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## finakat (Jun 7, 2011)

chris klee said:


> its the same story here. there are a lot of union guys sitting the bench. there is just not that many big jobs where unions can win the bid, so that means too many guys are not working. its a shame anytime a skilled craftsman is sitting around instead of doing what they do best.
> 
> hopefully it all turns around and there is enough work for everyone soon.


I strongly agree. I hope I didn't offend any hardworking independent guys with my last post. I just wanted to say, unemployment and rink-dink side jobs no matter how cushy is no way to go through life. Especially when you're 39 years old and your gorgeous white collar wife goes to work every morning and drops the kids off at school while you sit around hoping for the agent to call. Then one day she tells you she's moving out, with someone she met from WORK. (true story I heard on a picket line when I was union).

Not everyone is as smart as the guys on CT. Not everyone can go off on their own with a van and do estimates. It doesn't make them a bad tradesman. I had a math teacher who'd always say, "do you think I go home and do math problems?? you think that's how I got good at math?". Well the guys on CT go home and read about tools and talk about construction so here we are more/less the cream of the crop. 

Think of that poor fu8k who I just told you about. If that's me at 39, well that's when I reach for my revolver. Or in your language - that's when I put the HILTI DX to my forehead and let it all get blown away.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

finakat said:


> I strongly agree. I hope I didn't offend any hardworking independent guys with my last post. I just wanted to say, unemployment and rink-dink side jobs no matter how cushy is no way to go through life. Especially when you're 39 years old and your gorgeous white collar wife goes to work every morning and drops the kids off at school while you sit around hoping for the agent to call. Then one day she tells you she's moving out, with someone she met from WORK. (true story I heard on a picket line when I was union).
> 
> Not everyone is as smart as the guys on CT. Not everyone can go off on their own with a van and do estimates. It doesn't make them a bad tradesman. I had a math teacher who'd always say, "do you think I go home and do math problems?? you think that's how I got good at math?". Well the guys on CT go home and read about tools and talk about construction so here we are more/less the cream of the crop.
> 
> Think of that poor fu8k who I just told you about. If that's me at 39, well that's when I reach for my revolver. Or in your language - that's when I put the HILTI DX to my forehead and let it all get blown away.


Somebody cream in your puffs this morning bud?


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

finakat said:


> I strongly agree. I hope I didn't offend any hardworking independent guys with my last post. .


Go to nyc there building tons of schools , trade center , who need skillied workers . It's like anything else who you know no what you know . Poeple do what they got to do to put food on table never hide if you can take on side work in any field of work .


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

finakat said:


> t
> 
> Think of that poor fu8k who I just told you about. If that's me at 39, well that's when I reach for my revolver. Or in your language - that's when I put the HILTI DX to my forehead and let it all get blown away.


Wtf????? When I was in the union, when things slowed down, we did side jobs to make money & help put food on the table.


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## finakat (Jun 7, 2011)

Yeah dude, same with me..when things were slow I did sidejobs too to put food on the table, I'm just saying, it was cool with me because I'm a 24 year old jerk off and I don't have a mortgage. Who the hell wants to be married with kids and be proud of the fact that their life long career is a job they can't even boast so much as having steady work. thats your livelihood, your freedom, your everything

It's all relative here is what I'm saying when everyone keeps complaining about the union guys that supposedly have it easy. For every extra $85 bucks an hour they make more than you non-union guys, they make up for it when theyre laid the hell off for indefinitely extensive periods of time. I bet those guys would kill to be in your shoes right now. Thats all I was getting at. And their pensions are soon to be all but non-existent. Along with a thousand other reasons and a thousand unions that are ridiculously specialized and specific...that are all soon to be obsolete.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

finakat said:


> I strongly agree. I hope I didn't offend any hardworking independent guys with my last post. I just wanted to say, unemployment and rink-dink side jobs no matter how cushy is no way to go through life. Especially when you're 39 years old and your gorgeous white collar wife goes to work every morning and drops the kids off at school while you sit around hoping for the agent to call. Then one day she tells you she's moving out, with someone she met from WORK. (true story I heard on a picket line when I was union).
> 
> Not everyone is as smart as the guys on CT. Not everyone can go off on their own with a van and do estimates. It doesn't make them a bad tradesman. I had a math teacher who'd always say, "do you think I go home and do math problems?? you think that's how I got good at math?". Well the guys on CT go home and read about tools and talk about construction so here we are more/less the cream of the crop.
> 
> Think of that poor fu8k who I just told you about. If that's me at 39, well that's when I reach for my revolver. Or in your language - that's when I put the HILTI DX to my forehead and let it all get blown away.


thanks


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

finakat said:


> It's all relative here is what I'm saying when everyone keeps complaining about the union guys that supposedly have it easy. For every extra $85 bucks an hour they make more than you non-union guys, they make up for it when theyre laid the hell off for indefinitely extensive periods of time. I bet those guys would kill to be in your shoes right now. Thats all I was getting at. And their pensions are soon to be all but non-existent. Along with a thousand other reasons and a thousand unions that are ridiculously specialized and specific...that are all soon to be obsolete.


This sentence is what I keep trying to get across to the union bashers. This anti-union "attitude" that was proported by big business & the dark side party has hurt all of the working people in this country. This is why no one has any benefits anymore and the pay scale is going down. 

I see this finger pointing everywhere-and it is STUPID to look upon other working people & say they make too much & have benefits and don't deserve it. This is jealousy & we know what that gets us. But there are so many followers and they just really Don't see that they are also hurting themselves..............................


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## falcon1 (Dec 4, 2007)

mrmike said:


> This sentence is what I keep trying to get across to the union bashers. This anti-union "attitude" that was proported by big business & the dark side party has hurt all of the working people in this country. This is why no one has any benefits anymore and the pay scale is going down.
> 
> I see this finger pointing everywhere-and it is STUPID to look upon other working people & say they make too much & have benefits and don't deserve it. This is jealousy & we know what that gets us. But there are so many followers and they just really Don't see that they are also hurting themselves..............................



You're beating a dead horse. If it was up to the unions, we would still be using rotary phones and have operators connecting our long distance calls. We would also be paying many times the prices of everyday product. Times change and industries adapt and become more efficient. Unions wages are artificially set by politicians and have no bearing to reality that's why the mainstay of union membership is govt employee unions where profit and efficiency is not a motive and they are not spending their own money. Unlike a private business, the govt cannot run out of money and if they do, they just steal more from us.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

mrmike said:


> This sentence is what I keep trying to get across to the union bashers. This anti-union "attitude" that was proported by big business & the dark side party has hurt all of the working people in this country. This is why no one has any benefits anymore and the pay scale is going down.


Here are just a few of the many reasons that people are leaving unions & why the general public is feed up with unions


23 retired union officials from Chicago stand to collect about $56 million from two ailing city pension funds . "At a time when the public is going to be asked to pay higher taxes for fewer services, the revelation that there are benefits being paid for work that doesn't directly relate to official city business is outrageous," said Laurence Msall, president of the Civic Federation, a nonpartisan policy research group.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...-funds-municipal-pensions-pension-legislation


Corrupt National Maritime Union officials allegedly allowed organizers to expense the costs of watching nude and topless dancing, a federal grand jury in Philadelphia says.

The president of the union, Louis Parisi Sr., 69, of Cherry Hill, N.J., at times inflated his own expenses by as much as 3,000 percent and stole pension funds to pay his chauffeurs, the grand jury contends.

Parisi, who made nearly $163,000 plus expenses in recent years, also is accused of stealing union funds and taking bribes from the union's hand-picked personal injury lawyer, Bernard Sacks, of Philadelphia.



http://www.sodahead.com/united-stat...g-pension-funds-for-persona/question-1639373/

http://articles.philly.com/1996-06-27/news/25627644_1_pension-funds-bribes-union-funds


Joseph Roxlyn Jewett, 68, of Las Vegas, Nevada, was indicted on charges of giving kickbacks to the former leader of the Michigan Regional Council of Carpenters and for stealing four million dollars from the Carpenters’ Pension Trust Fund and the Operating Engineers Local 324 Pension Plan, announced United States Attorney Terrence Berg. In addition, Jewett was charged with conspiring to commit wire fraud, to embezzle union pension funds, to give kickbacks to a union official, and to launder the proceeds of this illegal activity. The charges were set forth in an Indictment issued by a federal grand jury in Detroit on May 26, 2009 and unsealed today.

http://www.fbi.gov/detroit/press-releases/2009/de052809.htm



I can easily cite many more cases like the ones listed above.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

falcon1 said:


> You can't compare Hawaii to the mainland. You don't have to worry about competition.


 Not so fast...15 or so yrs ago we ( drywall co. in Idaho) were asked to bid a job in Maui (retirement home) and got the job. I stayed in the states to keep things runnin smooth while the rest of the guys got to goanyways upon arrival the GC made it clear we were not to hire anybody local:no: Whats that about?


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

falcon1 said:


> You're beating a dead horse. If it was up to the unions, we would still be using rotary phones and have operators connecting our long distance calls. We would also be paying many times the prices of everyday product. Times change and industries adapt and become more efficient. Unions wages are artificially set by politicians and have no bearing to reality that's why the mainstay of union membership is govt employee unions where profit and efficiency is not a motive and they are not spending their own money. Unlike a private business, the govt cannot run out of money and if they do, they just steal more from us.


Yea, the big 3 from Detroit were a dead horse too, & I'm willing to bet you & others here did not like the bailout & wanted them to sink.............. You got one thing right-industries adapted with you and others going along with them & now have their way! 
the rest of your quote just shows your "follower" mentality but you just don't see it..................

By the way I haven't been in a union for 9 yrs but I would always stick up for them Because I know that it is better than standing alone. Sure every institution has pros & cons..... and bad apples in them- 
My mentality started way back from seeing Miners and paper workers working hard to make a living & if they got hurt or were sick they wouldn't be fired, not like Wallyworld & others in todays world......
because they had the Union there to help them.........
Think out of the BOX !!


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