# Shoddy work tilesetter



## Pennyroyal's (Sep 24, 2005)

Hey guys, not a good week. I am a general contractor, 30 yrs in the trades and I want your opinion on this situation. *The tilesetter did a job on me*. He did a crooked, uneven, messy job on my customers steamshower. I told him it was not acceptable...he told me to bad, he got a good advance and claims he did the job and will probably refuse to re-do it. It was such a disaster that I removed one wall of tile so the customer would not see the quality. In the course of removing the tile I found he did not set his tile so about 25% of the tiles had no thinset on them. 
on reinspection of the remaining walls his skill level became evident. I photographed it all and no doubt I will pay for this.
I will have to remove the tile that is up not only because it looks like sheit but because I believe tiles will fall.
How do I continue the job AND record his mistakes to get legal repayment?
This kind of disregard for correcting mistakes is amazing...welcome to the real world ..he is not returning calls or emails. what are my options here?
thanks in advance, Joe.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

photograph, document, save paperwork from new tile sub showing same job being done again. dont count on getting your money back, often these types of guys dissappear, and have no assets. where did you find him?


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## Pennyroyal's (Sep 24, 2005)

*Gene,*

thanks for the reply..
I found him on local Craigslist uner skilled services. Another reminder of truth in advertising...THAT won't happen again...thanks again, Joe


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## MattCoops (Apr 7, 2006)

You took a chance on a guy. It's like rolling the dice.
Where was you supervision? The fault ultimately rests on you because YOU are contracted to do the work.


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

Pennyroyal's said:


> thanks for the reply..
> I found him on local Craigslist uner skilled services. Another reminder of truth in advertising...THAT won't happen again...thanks again, Joe


Did you do a background check on him? References? Make sure he was licensed? Insured? Have a contract?

All listings on CL aren't bad! You have to verify what anyone claims, to be sure of them, and even then there will be a question until he proves his worth!!


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## bjg5240 (May 8, 2006)

Can you post a few pics of the work?? I would be interested in seeing his quality (or lack of).


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## AllAmerican (Nov 17, 2007)

Why did you advance money to a subcontractor? Especially one you do not know.

Send him a certified letter putting him on notice to return to the job and correct the installation. Make sure your letter includes the required notice time as per your local laws. If he does not correct the work, you will have to accurately document and photograph all of the costs incurred to correct the installation, including administrative costs, and pursue him through the court system. If you are in California, you may have some recourse through the Contractors License Board and his contractor’s license bond.

Your signed contract with the subcontractor will be your guide in this matter. 

You need to get your attorney involved for advice.

Good luck with this one.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I'd forget about him, and take the financial hit. I would not invite him back to re-do the work. He's not going to become competent within a few days. 

If you want to recover your costs, document well, really well. Include the time it took to remove and re-prep the area. Then sue in small claims court. Collecting will be difficult to impossible because he's broke or else you wouldn't have advanced him money.


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## Twust1285 (May 7, 2008)

*Beware the cheap bid strikes again*

I say it time and time again STAY AWHAY FROM THE CHEAP BID. You always 100% of the time get waht you pay for. Also the best way to hire a sub for a job, is to go to a professional flooring comany and ask for a list of recommended installers. Go to a local Master Tile, Dal-tile, Pro Source any of those places will give you some quality sub contractors that you can be sure you can trust. Sorry for the bad luck, but I must agree with the post above, that ultimatly this rests on your shoulders, it is now your responsibility to get it fixed the right way, and I WOULD NOT get the same guy back to fix it, if he gave you junk work the first time he'll give it to you again. This trade take some natural ability and I know from hiring several workers that not everyone has it.


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## Twust1285 (May 7, 2008)

*Epoxy*

I forgot to tell you, you also need to make sure (since it is in a steam shower) that you use empoxy products. The steam will break the bond to the backer board over time and the tiles will surely fall down. Use epoxy setting materials, and of course epoxy grout.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> I forgot to tell you, you also need to make sure (since it is in a steam shower) that you use empoxy products. The steam will break the bond to the backer board over time and the tiles will surely fall down. Use epoxy setting materials, and of course epoxy grout.


NONSENSE!:no:


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## Twust1285 (May 7, 2008)

*Fool*

Bud can you explain to us all why that is non-sense. You may want to do a bit of research first this time though. I am a 4th generation setter, and I know not only from thier experience, but also from my own in fixing steam room/steam shower jobs that the standard mortar doesn't stand a chance against big daddy time, along with the steam wearing down on the adhesion to the board.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> Twust1285: "Bud can you explain to us all why that is non-sense."


As you wish!



> Twust1285: "You may want to do a bit of research first this time though."


Based on your grammar (use of the word "fixing") I assume you are posting from Europe where standards may vary from mine. I haven't bothered to look at your profile. If by "fixing" you mean "repairing" in this country then I definitely take issue. 

*It is questionable at this point whom has the greater need to do some research. *



> Twust1285: "I am a 4th generation setter..."


And a proud one you are!
Isn't a "generation considered to be 25 years? If so, then 100 years ago was epoxy available? Was thinset available 100 years ago? Where membranes available 100 years ago? I don't know I wasn't there!



> Twust1285: "and I know not only from their experience, but also from my own in fixing steam room/steam shower jobs that the standard mortar doesn't stand a chance against big daddy time, along with the steam wearing down on the adhesion to the board."


Not at all my experience.

The following post is what I consider "nonsense" and also misleading to other less experienced installers:



> Twust1285
> Registered User
> Trade: Mudset Marble, Tile, Flooring Professional
> 
> ...


To make that claim based on your experience is fine if that's the way you see it and the way you think it should be done.

However, (in this country) most worthy installers will base their techniques on industry recommendations and procedures and in this case the Tile Council of North America publishes a Handbook spelling out the recommended methods for constructing tile steam rooms and steam showers. No where do those specifications mention the use of epoxy anything much less the claim it is mandatory as you are claiming.

In addition...my experience with epoxies I have used in tile installations tells me that epoxies don't like heat. In fact, the use of heat is the manner in which epoxy grouts are removed when need be. I can only imagine what could happen in a steam shower that becomes heated from use. Maybe that's why the tiles are falling.

Steam isn't as likely to "wear down" epoxy as quickly as heat will. Thinset mortars don't mind a little heat, typical epoxy tile adhesive hates it.

You do what you want.

Maybe you could further document your recommendations based on an accepted industry standards rather than something you and your kin may have conjured up over time. I must apologize because truthfully I have at this time time chosen NOT to do any additional research, thanks anyway.

I'd be happy to make a retraction if I'm mistaken. FOOL!


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## supercrew (May 15, 2006)

i had to laugh on the inside at this one. my GC was using a lowball company for his tile. the guy cranked out 7 baths in one week without any of the GC's supervision. 4 baths in a 2 family unit and 3 baths in a 1 family unit, including tiled showers plus one utility room per unit. by the time we showed to finish trim, everything was grouted. you got dizzy looking at the grout lines on the floor and your equalibrium was disoriented when looking at the showers.

come to find out, his road boss had hired a flat roofing crew to do the work to cut down on cost, cause they needed work and had the tools. it was a crew of 4 bosnians and the main "tilesetter" had one good eye. serious, one eye was all milky. after having to completely tear out one bath and replace for free, never seen them again.

still, sorry about your misfortune.

oh yeah, out of the 7 baths, one actually had sanded grout in the shower.


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## Twust1285 (May 7, 2008)

I suppose I must edjucate you. To answer your question no epoxy adhesives were not in use for tile installation purposes 100 years ago, but times change and better pruducts are made, to sufice more specific situations such as "steam showers". If you would take the time to research the best methods to use in your own trade you would know how to properly install tile in a steam shower. I recommend running a search HERE in AMERICA on how to properly install a STEAM SHOWER. You will find that I am right. I took about 30 seconds of my time to get one paragraph for you about this debate we are having for no reason. This is a direct quote from just one of the very very many websites that explain this: "Another benefit Epoxy thin set offers is that it does not allow vapor to condensate between tile and wedi which will occur if standard thin sets and standard cement grouts are used." 

This quote can be found under the section "How to install a residential steam shower" if that is not direct proof enough for you then i am sorry you are just too proud to be wrong, the most intelligent people on this planet are those who can admit when they are wrong and take advice. As for the remark about "in this country" I was unaware that anyone one this site was more concerned with how a word is used rather than getting correct information. Furthermore using the word "fixing" rather than using "repairing" is not such a bad grammerical crime.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

BUD, your up


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

I am a 0 generation tile setter but have built a few steam showers in my time. But I read directions very well and I have never seen, NO epoxy based anything specified or required. Dude is full of it.

Here is my question. What do you put on your walls as a backer for your tiling in your steam showers??


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## Twust1285 (May 7, 2008)

Hardi-Backer. I'm not trying to burst anyone bubble just asking simply that you do some research. Reading direction can be a good thing is some cases, but alot of times there is a much better way to do things than they decribe. Glass block is one of those situations. The condensation from the steam is too intense for standard thinset's. Add a bunch of hot water to trowled thinset and see what happens to it, it becomes sogy, and after it dries it will become very stiff and britle.


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## Twust1285 (May 7, 2008)

James Hardi makes without a doubt the best backer board. Best all around for water resistance in all of his products actually. Hardi-Plank is also a great pruduct for exterior work such as siding.Honestly just google this and you will see that it is a much better choice to go with epoxy products, I'm not saying YOU CANNOT USE REGULAR THINSET, just saying that it will not last as long.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Twust1285 said:


> Hardi-Backer. I'm not trying to burst anyone bubble just asking simply that you do some research. Reading direction can be a good thing is some cases, but alot of times there is a much better way to do things than they decribe. Glass block is one of those situations. The condensation from the steam is too intense for standard thinset's. Add a bunch of hot water to trowled thinset and see what happens to it, it becomes sogy, and after it dries it will become very stiff and britle.


 
Hardi backer is the worst for steam shower!! A full cement based backer is the way to go. I actually if cost is not a priority for the ho use moisture barrier, wire mesh and cement plaster the walls. 

James hardie products products should not be used in steam showers.

Durock all the way baby


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

I tried Hardi Backer once - never again! - prefer real concrete board! - however, more importantly than what substrate you are using is whether or not you are installing a waterproof membrane floor/walls/ceiling.
This is how I build a steam shower:
Frame
Install a piece of Ditra on the floor (skimcoated on top side-trowel underneath)
Install Kerdi drain in drypack - sloped to drain of course
Install 1/2" concrete board from base to and including ceiling
Install Kerdi waterproof membrane to entire installation using unmodified thinset mortor (dry set) - all seams must be done with dry set.
Set my tile with unmodified thinset
Grout with epoxy grout 

The shower is water and vapour proof once the Kerdi is installed
You must also let the epoxy grout fully cure (21 days- but it varies) before steam generator is used. Epoxy is very vapour and water resistant when it is cured but not very good before that point!

I realize this is just my opinion, but it has been working really well for me!


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Wedi, THE GERMANS KNOW BEST


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## Bozzy (Feb 22, 2008)

There's 20 minutes of my life I'll never get back. C'mon ladies, aren't personal attacks prohibited?


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## dave peffer (Jan 10, 2009)

*what???*

Hey Twust, listen up. Experience is critical and experts are everywhere, but you gotta also know why why why...

Steam shower should be waterproofed. Then it will drain like any other shower. Water will enter joints, it will fall below the mud bed and it will drain through the weep holes. It is a healthy, long standing tile method.
Epoxy will deteriorate under a stream of hot water eventually "washing out". Need evidence? Restaurant quarry tile floors; epoxy grout; needs re-grout every 2-3 years in a busy place. It is true that cementous grout will also wash out, but for $12.00 in grout and 3 hours in labor, you can re-grout it every 5 years or so as needed. You cannot regrout epoxy in the same way.

But, do what you want, its residential and they probably won't use it enough to make a difference for a long time. 

Also, if you waterproof like you should, the backer is almost unimportant since it will remain dry.


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