# Random question?



## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

Hey guys, heres another random question I have been meaning to ask for a while. It could be a dumb one :laughing: But why is it that illuminated switches don't need a neutral? Is it cause essentially its wired in series?



Dave


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

dkillianjr said:


> Hey guys, heres another random question I have been meaning to ask for a while. It could be a dumb one :laughing: But why is it that illuminated switches don't need a neutral? Is it cause essentially its wired in series?
> 
> 
> 
> Dave


Most, yes. Depends on the type of switch. If it is light on/switch illuminated, it needs a neutral. If it is light off/switch illuminated, it doesn't need a neutral. When this type is off, the neon bulb is in series with the load. Not enough current flow to light the load, but enough for the switch.

InPhase277


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## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

Actually, it's because when the switch is open there is potential across it's contacts and that is where the bulb is in the circuit. Just like reading fuses with a voltmeter, if your probes are on a blown one you'll read voltage across it.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> Actually, it's because when the switch is open there is potential across it's contacts and that is where the bulb is in the circuit. Just like reading fuses with a voltmeter, if your probes are on a blown one you'll read voltage across it.


Only an idiot would check a fuse in-circuit:laughing:

InPhase277


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

InPhase277 said:


> Only an idiot would check a fuse in-circuit:laughing:
> 
> InPhase277


Maybe, maybe not. Don't do it with a Wiggy, or it'll blow up in your hands. With a DMM, no problem.


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks guys, I knew it was something along those lines. Its just like testing christmas light bulbs:laughing:


Dave


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> Maybe, maybe not. Don't do it with a Wiggy, or it'll blow up in your hands. With a DMM, no problem.


What are you talking about? I check fuses all the time with a wiggy. They're rated 600 Volts RMS, 1000 volts peak. You leave the disconnect on, override the lock on the door with your screwdriver (that's why the slot is there) and test each fuse just like randomkiller suggested. Every maintenance electrician I've ever worked with checks this way otherwise you would have to remove every fuse in the bucket and test, and nobody has ever been "blown up"!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Ponsse said:


> What are you talking about? I check fuses all the time with a wiggy. They're rated 600 Volts RMS, 1000 volts peak. You leave the disconnect on, override the lock on the door with your screwdriver (that's why the slot is there) and test each fuse just like randomkiller suggested. Every maintenance electrician I've ever worked with checks this way otherwise you would have to remove every fuse in the bucket and test, and nobody has ever been "blown up"!


Okay dokey. Keep thinking that way. Doesn't matter to me. 

How many amps will that solenoid coil handle? How many amps will those leads handle? You do realize that if you check across a 200 amp fuse, there's 200 amps flowing literally through your Wiggy, don't you?


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> Okay dokey. Keep thinking that way. Doesn't matter to me.
> 
> How many amps will that solenoid coil handle? How many amps will those leads handle? You do realize that if you check across a 200 amp fuse, there's 200 amps flowing literally through your Wiggy, don't you?


It has nothing to do with the size of the fuse, It's the resistance of the coil!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

Seriously, what part of this don't you understand?


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## Royal-T (Feb 6, 2008)

*mdshunk*

This is off topic, but I dont care because I am not an electrician. I need a sparky, and we are in the same area. Send me a pm with the info on how to get in touch with you. I have a job for you. This would be the one I mentioned the other day about the metal device, metal box with newspaper stuffed in it for a draft blocker!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Ponsse said:


> Seriously, what part of this don't you understand?


I understand it quite well. If, for instance, you have a big heating element on the load side of that blown fuse, and you check across it with a solenoid type tester, you will have current flow through that Wiggy to fire up those elements for the period of time you have that meter around that fuse. Same thing on control circuits. You can actually jump out a limit or interlock for the period of time you're testing around it with a Wiggy. This is Wiggy 101 stuff here, and is important for you to know.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Royal-T said:


> This is off topic, but I dont care because I am not an electrician. I need a sparky, and we are in the same area. Send me a pm with the info on how to get in touch with you. I have a job for you. This would be the one I mentioned the other day about the metal device, metal box with newspaper stuffed in it for a draft blocker!


I replied to you before, and I told you that you're too far away from me. Almost every job I ever do is within 10 minutes of each other. You're hours away from me. No thanks.


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## Royal-T (Feb 6, 2008)

*Sorry Mr. shunk*

I never got the response, my electrician flaked out on me and I need a new one in the Harrisburg area. If you have anyone you would suggest around here, let me know, I need a good one. Thanks alot!!


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## Royal-T (Feb 6, 2008)

*mdshunk*

By the way, "Give'em Hell" Sometimes these kids know everything. "If you know everything, you will learn nothing"


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

A 200 amp fuse with its load side conductor connected to a motor makes for an even splashier display when a wiggy is connected across the blown fuse. If your feeling brave, you should try that one sometime.


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> I understand it quite well. If, for instance, you have a big heating element on the load side of that blown fuse, and you check across it with a solenoid type tester, you will have current flow through that Wiggy to fire up those elements for the period of time you have that meter around that fuse. Same thing on control circuits. You can actually jump out a limit or interlock for the period of time you're testing around it with a Wiggy. This is Wiggy 101 stuff here, and is important for you to know.


The current flow through the coil is negligable on your point on resistive circuits, just as the current flow through your DMM is negligable, yes you have a current flow through your fluke. Yes your right, I can pull in a control circuit with my wiggy, it has enough current for that but sometimes this is what you want. There are 1000 different ways to troubleshoot a circuit. If I'm testing, I know what I'm testing for, and when and where to use my wiggy. I can spend all week trying to teach you when, where, and how to use a wiggy, but I don't have the time or patience ----- so back to your initial statements.

Your point about blowing up a wiggy across a 200 amp fuse is completely wrong. It doesn't matter if I'm across a 5 amp fuse, a 200 amp fuse or directly across 2 phases at 575 volts, the current flow is only changed by the voltage. The resistance, or on an AC circuit, the impedance is fixed in the coil.
I have seen a wiggy "blow up" as I'm sure you haven't by your foolish statements. It was "blown up" along with a starter by testing across two phases of a 2300 volt starter. After the arc was started it sustained itself until the conductors were completely vaporized, it was 20 years ago but I believe they were around 500 MCM conductors. The electrician was shaken but is still working in the same plant.
In this case your DMM would have "blown up" too. You need to learn some DMM 101 basics if you think there's something special about your meter before you kill yourself.

Do you understand yet the concept behind testing across fuses and not having 200 amps flowing through a wiggy?


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

IN SERIES with the fuse holder unless your wiggy had a dead short in it hows it gonna carry 200 amps? 

To check for an open phase,or blown fuse ,Why would you test across a fuse holder in series anyway,

OR load side to neutral? 

Shouldnt you pull readings in parellel across the line side and load side of the fuseholder for voltage ?


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

cmec said:


> IN SERIES with the fuse holder unless your wiggy had a dead short in it hows it gonna carry 200 amps?


 
It won't pull 200 amps or blow up, that's the point I'm trying to get across to Shunk.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Ponsse said:


> It won't pull 200 amps or blow up, that's the point I'm trying to get across to Shunk.


Oh? then in that case if you substitute a 15 amp fuse in the block for the 200 amp fuse somehow, it won't blow under load either, cause its limited by the impedence of the 15 amp fuselink. Not.


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

Maybee before md applys wiggy 101 he should read that pamphlet came with it , vol con kinda ambigious says not to use for more than 15 seconds and they will sell you fused leads but[I know my volcon is on for a lot longer than 15 seconds and hasnt burnt up yet]


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

cmec said:


> Maybee before md applys wiggy 101 he should read that pamphlet came with it , vol con kinda ambigious says not to use for more than 15 seconds and they will sell you fused leads but[I know my volcon is on for a lot longer than 15 seconds and hasnt burnt up yet]


What does Volcon know, they're only the manufacturer, I'm going to go by what you say, you say a lot longer than 15 seconds that's what I'm going with, to hell with the manufacturers instructions.

Do me a favor and explain what will happen to the solenoid tester below if the power is turned on:


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

From the actual instructions, monkey enhanced:



> LOCATING A BLOWN FUSE
> When the Motor Is Running Single-Phased
> Place the tester terminals as shown by the dotted line in Figure 1, with one terminal on the line side of the first fuse and the other terminal on the load side of the middle fuse. If the reading shows full line voltage, reverse the operation as shown by the solid lines in Figure 1, placing one terminal on the load side of the first fuse and the other terminal on the line side of the middle fuse. If the reading is still full line voltage, repeat the operation as shown in the second diagram of Figure 1 between the middle and third fuse. The dotted lines in the second diagram show the position of the terminals when the blown fuse in this example is located. The reading will be less than the line voltage.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Ponsse said:


> It won't pull 200 amps or blow up, that's the point I'm trying to get across to Shunk.


It won't "pull" 200 amps, but it will be the wire through which 200 amps can flow to the load.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

mickeyco said:


> Do me a favor and explain what will happen to the solenoid tester below if the power is turned on:


Current will flow though it, and it may die if the current flow is sufficiently high. Note that the Wiggy instructions never show checking the same fuse, line to load.

I've got some power point slides of a blown up wiggy, the blow up PPE, and the blown up multi-metering board that resulted from just this procedure. I'm going to lay them out, along with the accompanying text, as soon as Ponsse gets this out of his system.


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

I talked to ideal ,They claim the resistors will blow in it first,it puts an instantanious short across 5.7k when first applied and you can buy fused leads if you want the 15 seconds duty cycle has never been a problem for me, but I cant remeber useing it in series,I dont know that I ever mesured voltage in series anyway .
I started asking questions like fuses, thermal protection ,duty cycle intermittent duty etc , they said their engineer would email me back with answers. its not on that pamphlet, I will let you guys know what they say


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

A little more information, I didn't have time earlier:












> Ideal Industries Voltage Tester
> 
> July 31, 2003
> 
> ...





> CPSC, Ideal Industries Inc. Announce Recall of Voltage Testers
> WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission announces the following recall in voluntary cooperation with the firm below. Consumers should stop using recalled products immediately unless otherwise instructed.
> 
> Name of product: Ideal Solenoid Voltage Testers
> ...



If you got one of those you might want to look into the recall.










.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

See, maybe I understand after all. :laughing:


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> It won't "pull" 200 amps, but it will be the wire through which 200 amps can flow to the load.


 
You obviously don't understand series resistance. I should have to explain this but if you have a load that normally pulls 200 amps, then you add more resistance in series with that same load the current will be reduced and it will no longer be 200 amps. Your wiggy is the additional resistance

You are either to bullheaded to admit your wrong or you don't have the faintest clue on series resistance being additive. Either way I can't waste any more time on you.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Ponsse said:


> Either way I can't waste any more time on you.


Yeah, I wouldn't want you to do that either. I'm pretty much a lost cause. :thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

LOL

Very good discussion here. Alot of info I hadn't much considered till now. I use the yellow Ideal "wiggies" every day. I have certainly used them to check almost everything, including 200 amp panels under loads way less than 200 amps and never had a problem. In fact, the testers I'm currently using have lasted for more than 10 years. Never, ever, have I ever left the testers across 240 volts or more for longer than 3-4-5 seconds max. Why would I? The leads I believe are rated for 600 volts nominal.


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

mickeyco said:


> What does Volcon know, they're only the manufacturer, I'm going to go by what you say, you say a lot longer than 15 seconds that's what I'm going with, to hell with the manufacturers instructions.
> 
> Do me a favor and explain what will happen to the solenoid tester below if the power is turned on:


 
What's going to happen? I will answer that for you.

We will use my Square D Model VT-1 Wiggy in this example. The coil resistance of the wiggy is 3.3 Kohms. Since this is an AC example we have to add the inductive reactance at 60 Hertz to the resistance, and the total impedance (Z total) will be 4 Kohms.
Now the Wiggy will be in series with a single phase 230 volt, 10 HP, 50 FLA motor. We can calculate the impedance (Z) of the motor using Ohms Law (R=E/I).

230 volts/ 50 amps = 4.8 ohms ohms of impedance

If we insert the wiggy's 4000 ohms in series with the motor's 4.8 ohms we get 4004.8 ohms of impedance in our circuit.

We can now calculate the current flow through our series circuit using ohms law one more time. The formula is I = E/R

230 volts/4004.8 ohms = *.057 amps or 57 milliamps*

So the answer to your question about what will happen is *Nothing!*

I know this is over Shunks head, all this ciphering, but maybe it will click with someone else.

P.S. The reason Vol Con doesn't tell you to measure across a fuse is for liability reasons for there are some inherant dangers to the practice, but it has nothing to do with blowing up a meter.

P.P.S. All your talk about blowing up meters under high voltage is correct, but 240 volts isn't high voltage. High voltage is generally considered (except by linesmen) to be over 600 volts. I believe I covered that in a previous post about a 2300 volt motor starter I witnessed. There are dangers in using any tool for what it's not intended for.

I hope I haven't wasted my time.


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Oh? then in that case if you substitute a 15 amp fuse in the block for the 200 amp fuse somehow, it won't blow under load either, cause its limited by the impedence of the 15 amp fuselink. Not.


I can't believe I'm actually responding to this nonsense, but here goes.

That statement makes absolutely no sense. A fuse is not made to set a current level to a load, it is determined by the load. It's only a safety device to limit a fault current or an overload condition. A fuse is made to open at a certain current level and stop current flow, a meter is made to allow current flow at minimum levels for testing the circuit. It's apples to oranges and they cannot be used interchangably, nobody ever suggested they could, and I don't know where you possibly came up with such a convoluted idea.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Ponsse said:


> What's going to happen? I will answer that for you.
> 
> We will use my Square D Model VT-1 Wiggy in this example. The coil resistance of the wiggy is 3.3 Kohms. Since this is an AC example we have to add the inductive reactance at 60 Hertz to the resistance, and the total impedance (Z total) will be 4 Kohms.
> 
> ...


I'm not even sure were to start, so we'll start with this:



Ponsse said:


> What are you talking about? I check fuses all the time with a wiggy. They're rated 600 Volts RMS, 1000 volts peak. You leave the disconnect on, override the lock on the door with your screwdriver (that's why the slot is there) and test each fuse just like randomkiller suggested. Every maintenance electrician I've ever worked with checks this way otherwise you would have to remove every fuse in the bucket and test, and nobody has ever been "blown up"!


That's wrong, that is not the correct/safe way to check the fuse, refer to the instructions for Ideals Vol-Con or the Wiggy. Just because you do it that way doesn't make it right or safe. The fact that you "do this all the time" and haven't been hurt or damaged a wiggy yet only means that you are a lucky man, you should buy some lottery tickets.


Now this:



> P.S. The reason Vol Con doesn't tell you to measure across a fuse is for liability reasons for there are some inherant dangers to the practice, but it has nothing to do with blowing up a meter.


Why would there be any liability if there was nothing wrong with that practice. Sounds like some conspiracy by the wiggy manufacturers to make electricians waste time instead of just going across a single fuse. I put in a call to the local news station, hopefully we can uncover this vast conspiracy and see justice prevail, I for one, and I'm sure I'm not alone here, am tired of taking the extra steps to check fuses. 


And this:



> P.P.S. All your talk about blowing up meters under high voltage is correct, but 240 volts isn't high voltage. High voltage is generally considered (except by linesmen) to be over 600 volts. I believe I covered that in a previous post about a 2300 volt motor starter I witnessed. There are dangers in using any tool for what it's not intended for.


Since the "Wiggy's" are only rated up to 600 volts when they say "Ideal Solenoid Voltage Testers manufactured by Ideal Industries Inc. are being recalled. They can short out at high voltages. Consumers can suffer burns.", they are not referring to high voltage (above 600 volts), they are referring to high voltages that are less than 600, so maybe 480 or 240, regardless, people were hurt by them. If it was a recall for above 600 volts it would be like recalling a coffee machine for not making good ice-cream, not it's intended use.

News Flash:
Ford is recalling all Mustangs, it seems they are not performing well in off-road stadium racing.


Your calculations are incorrect, you are not accounting for the load the motor will try to draw, if the motor was off (switched after the fuses) you could get away with using a wiggy across a single fuse but it's not a good practice.



Instead of trying to figure it out with calculations, just think what a motor does when it is trying to start and what the weak link in the circuit is.


.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

oops


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

mickeyco said:


> Your calculations are incorrect, you are not accounting for the load the motor will try to draw, if the motor was off (switched after the fuses) you could get away with using a wiggy across a single fuse but it's not a good practice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yes you are correct on my calculations, I left out the inrush current because from your previous posts I thought it would be way over your head. What a pleasant surprise you are. So lets try this again.

I see that you don't believe in ohms law, physics, or ony other constants of the universe instead you rely on voodoo psuedoscience. But just humor me for a moment.

Can we agree on an inrush current of 4 to 10 times FLA?

Lets give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's 10 times. That would give us an inrush current of 50 amps x 10 = 500 amps. OOOOOH that's such a big number, I am now getting worried that I should have been blown up years ago.

( Ponsse now leaves to go into the other room and wipe the egg off his face)

It looks like you have finally hit upon the answer to all the blown up wiggy's. But lets continue on anyway just to prove you are correct.

230 volts / 500 amps = .46 ohms

Such a small number you are looking smarter all the time mickeyco. Let's just continue on and prove your superior intellect so the whole world wide web can bow down and grovel before you.

Wiggy impedance of 4000 ohms added to our new much smaller motor impedance of .46 ohms = 4000.46 ohms.

You are still on a roll, 4000.46 is a smaller number than 4004.8. Way to go friend! Only one more calculation to go.

230 volts / 4000.46 = .............. Drumroll please..............

*A whopping .0575 amps or 57.5 milliamps* :clap:


What happened, 500 was such a big number? And you were my hero for a brief second. Oh well, good thing we don't rely on such mundane concepts such as math and physics. I'll let you in on a little secret, I haven't been lucky all these years, I sold my soul to the devil and in return he allowed my one special wiggy out of all the wiggy's in the world to be able to conduct 57.5 milliamps at 230 volts without blowing up in my face.

(Ponsse now goes outside naked to sacrifice a virgin, and believe me that was hard to find, on this very sacred night of a total lunar eclipse in hopes that Bealzabub will deem him worthy enough for that possessed Fluke 87 he's always wanted.)


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Ponsse said:


> What happened, 500 was such a big number?


You seemed to have forgotten that a motor is an inductive load. Your math don't scare me none.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

> Solenoid-based voltage testers
> 
> These devices operate, as their name implies, on solenoid principles. A solenoid depends on the movement of a ferrite core referred to as the slug in response to the energization and de-energization of an electromagnetic coil. The indication function of these testers depends on a spring, which drives a mechanical pointer. The spring restrains the slug?which slides to one end of its chamber or the other, depending on whether the coil has enough energy to cause the slug to overcome the opposing force of the spring. The amount of energy required restricts the sensitivity of solenoid-based testers. In the US, a useful solenoid tester will have the ability to measure voltages up to 480 V or more. Having the ability to measure higher voltages limits the capability to detect voltages below about 100 V due to the poor dynamic range of the magnetics, an unfortunate weakness of solenoid testers. Try using one on 24 V or 48 V control circuits, and you may as well be using a stick of wood.
> 
> ...



...


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> You seemed to have forgotten that a motor is an inductive load. Your math don't scare me none.


 
No, thats why I used the term impedance instead of resistance. Fire up your abacus amish boy and see what numbers you come up with.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Ponsse said:


> No, thats why I used the term impedance instead of resistance. Fire up your abacus amish boy and see what numbers you come up with.


I don't believe in math. It's against my religion.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Video of exploding Wiggy:


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

By the way mickeyco, that's a nice little advertisement by Fluke to get people to buy their product. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> I don't believe in math. It's against my religion.


 
Now that's funny. Good to see a little civility coming back to the conversation


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Amish boy, lol.

Btw, that video is no longer available.


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

mickeyco said:


> I'm not even sure were to start, so we'll start with this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
(After a brief respite in which to recover from his disgusting rituals of the previous evening, Ponsse continues his chastisement of poor little Mickeyco.)

Thank you so much for proving my point by finding that instruction sheet on how to "properly" use a wiggy so it doesn't blow up in my face.
So if I follow these instructions and have 2 blown fuses on a 3 phase circuit, put one probe on the line side of C, the other probe on the load side of B, what would the completed circuit look like.

Now remember the instruction sheet said this was how you check a live 3 phase circuit.

The resulting circuit has current flow from C phase, through the wiggy to the load side of the blown fuse on B phase, then through the motor windings back to A phase through our one good fuse. The resulting circuit puts our wiggy in series with the motor windings as per manufacturers instructions.

So as you see I am not lucky, I just understand what I am doing, as you obviously do not.

(Poor little Mickeyco walks off into the sunset with tears streaming down has face never to be heard from again, hopefully)

On a more serious note. I prefer to trust in a solid piece of wire wrapped around a coil instead of a little electronic package just hoping that the diode and chips and all the other crap in there don't fail. I've seen too many diodes and electronic devices fail over the years to put to much trust in them.

P.S. I have one little error in my expanation to you this time too. Lets see if you can surprise me again and pick up on it. I am waiting with bated breath.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Ponsse said:


> I can't believe I'm actually responding to this nonsense, but here goes.
> 
> That statement makes absolutely no sense. A fuse is not made to set a current level to a load, it is determined by the load. It's only a safety device to limit a fault current or an overload condition. A fuse is made to open at a certain current level and stop current flow, a meter is made to allow current flow at minimum levels for testing the circuit. It's apples to oranges and they cannot be used interchangably, nobody ever suggested they could, and I don't know where you possibly came up with such a convoluted idea.


Come on man, I was just having a little macfun in page 1. A light bulb has a filament that has a fixed resistance. The resistance limits the current that flows thru the filament. If it did not then you would have a short circuit and that is a much larger amp draw than a wiggy across a blown fuse holder. Wiggys are made with a high resistance coil. They do not explode when reading across a dead fuse. OK?


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## mdcorreia (May 21, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> See, maybe I understand after all. :laughing:


Who laughed last? 
I laghed too mdshunk! The old testers, like I still have one 20 years old, are ok to test across anything, the newer types? You are right! got to be carefull.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Ponsse said:


> (After a brief respite in which to recover from his disgusting rituals of the previous evening, Ponsse continues his chastisement of poor little Mickeyco.)
> 
> Thank you so much for proving my point by finding that instruction sheet on how to "properly" use a wiggy so it doesn't blow up in my face.
> So if I follow these instructions and have 2 blown fuses on a 3 phase circuit, put one probe on the line side of C, the other probe on the load side of B, what would the completed circuit look like.
> ...



No tears here, the only way you could possibly make me shed a tear would be to post a picture of yourself, then out of empathy for you I might shed a tear (no guarantee), kind of like that Indian in the littering commercial.

Here's where I will agree with you, I'm sure you do things improperly and in a dangerous manner all the time, I would also speculate that you use your wiggy for applications that it is not rated to be used with. So from that what am I supposed to conclude, that you're an electrical genius, that you know more than everyone else that says what you are doing is wrong and unsafe, that the instructions and meter rating are incorrect? I'll put it down as luck on your part, pure luck. You an Irishman?

You seem to be stuck on the wiggy "blowing up", you'll note that I never said a wiggy will "blow up" if you check fuses in the manner you described in your earlier post (across the fuse while energized, now referred to as the "Ponsse method"). The only time I have seen a wiggy "blow up" was an idiot using it on 600 volt DC using cmec's "I know my volcon is on for a lot longer than 15 seconds and hasnt burnt up yet" tried and tested theory/method. But what I do know is using the Ponsse method you are creating a circuit (unless the fuse is fine) and the weak link is the wiggy.

What you are trying to do is justify your unsafe practices by putting your theory on paper, on paper the Space Shuttle Challenger was supposed to launch and fly to the moon.

Now we have the recall of Ideal's Vol-Con and 11 reports of failures (and how many uncounted failures without injuries where the meter was just flipped in the trash) and people seriously injured at "higher voltages", not high voltage. "Resulting in the faceplate blowing off the units", now I don't know what the circumstances of those incidents were, but I doubt the incidents were made up. Do you think Fluke was paying people to give themselves burns, "third-degree burns on his hands, forearms, neck and face, while the other suffered second- and third-degree burns to his hands." so they could put wiggy manufacturers out of business and corner the market? You do understand that they wouldn't recall them if they were being used for purposes other than they were intended or rated for?

On a 3 phase motor how would you know if you lost one or two fuses, but if it turns out to be only one you should have turned off the power so the motor isn't damaged. The fact is if you have a blown fuse there is no need to leave the power on to check it (with a few limited exceptions), other than laziness, stupidity or ignorance, whatever is using that power is not working.

You can try all you want to justify doing things the wrong way, it'll never make it right, there is no magic number of times you can do something wrong and it then becomes the right way. I used to work with a guy like you, we had a procedure for clearing a filler tube and it always started with turning off the machine, he thought he could do it while it was running, he lost a finger. In my years I have personally witnessed several work-related injuries, from fingers cut or ripped off, bellies sliced open, crushed legs, etc. to two deaths. They all shared one thing in common, except for one of the deaths, they were people taking short-cuts like the ones you take, so hang on to that rabbits foot and keep on truckin'. If you're trying to convince me that the Ponsse method (your practice of testing across fuses in series in an energized box) is safe you're wasting your time. I'm not really concerned with what will happen to a wiggy in that situation (although there is clear evidence of them "blowing up", how is that happening?) because I will never do it, so I don't need to know, but I do know what there is a potential of happening. Now explain to me how the leads on a wiggy are protected.

I get it, you're living in the past where asbestos and cigarettes don't cause cancer, where aluminum wire was all the rage and where wiggys could do no harm. Those days are gone forever, here we are today, February 21, 2008, asbestos and cigarettes are directly linked to cancer, aluminum wire isn't all it was cracked up to be and people are being seriously injured by wiggys. Not everything has changed, checking a fuse in series in an energized box is still a bad practice, time to open your eyes and get with the program.

Maybe this will help, or it could be Bennie Kennedy is conspiring with the folks over at Fluke:



> Rethinking Electrical Safety
> 
> Aug 1, 2007 12:00 PM, By Bennie Kennedy, Square D/Schneider Electric
> 
> ...





> Q. I like using a Wiggins solenoid tester when checking for the presence of voltage, because I can feel it vibrate and don?t have to look at the meter. It also loads the circuit so I don?t get the false voltage readings common with high-impedance meters. Why can?t I use a Wiggins?
> 
> A. I like the Wiggy too, for just those reasons, but the old-fashioned Wiggy does not have a category rating. While Ideal offers a Cat III meter, it is not stamped for Cat IV and there has already been one recall because, as the company stated, ?These testers can short out at high voltages.? Furthermore, solenoid-type meters are not fused and rely on their impedance for to protect the user. For these reasons, the DOE Electrical Safety Manual states that, ??solenoid-type devices should not be used to test for the absence of AC voltage.? Since such testing would be the chief use of solenoid meters, and any such meters left around for other purposes could mistakenly be put to this use, the simplest solution is to declare them not acceptable at BNL
> 
> http://www.nsls.bnl.gov/esh/highlights/safetyinfo_121404.htm


..


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Come on man, I was just having a little macfun in page 1. A light bulb has a filament that has a fixed resistance. The resistance limits the current that flows thru the filament. If it did not then you would have a short circuit and that is a much larger amp draw than a wiggy across a blown fuse holder. Wiggys are made with a high resistance coil. They do not explode when reading across a dead fuse. OK?


 
Yeah OK, I'm sorry I missed the humor in your post. I was just so used to the other 2 guys who actually believed it would blow up. Time to go watch Osama and the Hilldabeast duke it out.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Ponsse said:


> Yeah OK, I'm sorry I missed the humor in your post.


Seriously, you need to do the math.


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

Who beleived it my wiggy would blow up,I still am waiting for ideals reply to my questions probably gonna want to sell me upgraded leads with fuses, you guys dont scare me like obama or hildabeast and bubba as first lady.


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

Poor little Mickeyco, he has run out of any further attempts to convince me of my impending doom and is now just telling me that's it's bad juju to test in a live circuit. 
Well, when you get out of the deck and porches business and into the electrical business you will learn that is not always possible.
Most of the large plants and mills in the country only shut down annually. Generators, turbines, hydros, precipitators all need maintenance throughout the year. Who do you think does this work? I would like to see you go into a boiler control room and tell them they need to shut down for you to do some tests, or change brushes on a turbine. Yes, we change brushes under load while running, laying on our backs or reaching under with our hands to feel for the brush rigging and following the leads back to the screw, and then try to thread our screwdriver in there to remove the brush (actually the newer ones clamp in but you would know nothing about that anyway). You try going up to a 20 foot control panel, with no documentation, the mill manager breathing on the back of your neck, 50 production guys sitting around doing nothing, the mill losing 10's of thousands of dollars for every hour their down and not test around a couple of fuses out of a panel of dozens. 
There is a whole system out there for installing jumpers around safety interlocks, it requires a "jumper tag" a superintendants signature and you better bet your ass your signature will be on it. And you will install the jumpers because if you ESP (emergency shutdown procedure) that boiler accidentally, the boiler will go down hard, need to cool down for 2 days, need to bring inspectors in to check the tubes for damage and need another day to be brought back up again, and you will be looking for a new job. 

You like to quote some shmuck sitting in a desk somewhere, writing for some crappy magazine about how you should never work on anything live, but there is a much bigger world out there that you know nothing about when all your doing as a deck and porch pro is installing a receptacle for some old lady's bug zapper. I sure hope you put that on a GFCI!


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

hey Mickeyco

I see that you also didn't find my error in post #45 either. That's OK, I never expected you to anyway:laughing:

I'm outta here!


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## Timster (Feb 1, 2006)

Ponsse said:


> hey Mickeyco
> 
> I see that you also didn't find my error in post #45 either. That's OK, I never expected you to anyway:laughing:
> 
> I'm outta here!


So basically, after I read this whole thread, you are just an employee? 

And a one trick pony, at that? :shutup:

I want my 10 minutes back.


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

Timster said:


> So basically, after I read this whole thread, you are just an employee?
> 
> And a one trick pony, at that? :shutup:
> 
> I want my 10 minutes back.


 
No, industrial is where I began, and I've got lots of tricks!


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## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Only an idiot would check a fuse in-circuit:laughing:
> 
> InPhase277


 
IMO only an idiot would think you can't. I have been doing it that way for the last 20 plus years and have never had a piece of equipment start or damaged my meter. I have never done it with a wiggy, just the sound of putting a soleniod tester in that situation doesn't sound right to me. But as for DMMs. it's done on a daily basis world wide I'm sure. So pull your head out of the sand and see what the rest of the people in the industrial world are doing. :no:


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> IMO only an idiot would think you can't. I have been doing it that way for the last 20 plus years and have never had a piece of equipment start or damaged my meter. I have never done it with a wiggy, just the sound of putting a soleniod tester in that situation doesn't sound right to me. But as for DMMs. it's done on a daily basis world wide I'm sure. So pull your head out of the sand and see what the rest of the people in the industrial world are doing. :no:


Who? Me? Apparently you didn't see the emoticon at the end there.

InPhase277


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