# Question for Experienced Painters



## jackrabbit5 (Apr 30, 2006)

ModernStyle said:


> I just had to roll a kitchen with BIN, but not for cigarette smoke, my problem was bacon grease. This guy eats bacon like 3 times a day, the house reeks of bacon, the kitchen itself is covered in a slimy coat of bacon grease. I got a drip of paint on the counter top and went to wipe it away with my finger, it was so nasty, like sliding your finger across the engine block of an old car engine. I dont really care if the BIN seals in the bacon grease or not, if it bleeds through it is not my problem, i am not taking a putty knife to the walls to remove all that grease, that was never part of my bid. I think it will be a long time before I wanna eat bacon again .......


If the kitchen was as bad as you say it was you should have noticed at the time you went and made your bid and you should have figured on washing the walls first. BIN is a great product, but if you went right over all that grease you are begging for trouble.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

I know, I know, I messed up


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## daArch (Jun 8, 2007)

ModernStyle said:


> I know, I know, I messed up


That's the second time tonight I've read those words from you :whistling


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

still the same job, i am not done kicking myself in the nuts yet over this one


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## artiospainting (Mar 16, 2011)

your original quote was for him to prime and paint have him prime over his paint then paint like originally agreed hes bullying you. prime with a stain blocker primer.


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## researchhound (Sep 5, 2010)

ModernStyle said:


> If they are not coming through once the paint is dry do you think they will later come through? I have never seen this happen on a interior, but I havent seen everything, so I am just wondering if it happens. I used to do apartments and sometimes people turned the walls brown from smoke, not tan I am talking brown. The maintanance guys would handle the washing of the walls, but once I got the paint to cover I never had any calls about the stains coming back through.
> My house was nasty with smoke and dirt when I bought it, we ripped out the flooring and i sprayed everything, walls, ceilings, and trim, with cover stain before painting. *So I am also wondering if you skipped the washing and just sprayed cover stain on everything to seal it in, would that work?*
> I know drywall is best when primed with an actuall primer, but over half of the guys I know who do new construction use ICI SpeedWall to prime with, it is the cheapest paint ICI sells, I think my price is like $35 for a 5 of the crap. It sands like crap, sprays like crap, and if you try to roll it then it covers like crap. But their primer is like $15-$20 more a 5 so people go the cheap route, it has only gotta last untill the HO closes on the house I guess.


Honestly, it's been awhile since I had to do a place that was heavily stained with nicotine/smoke (thank goodness). The last time I did I was advised to _not_ wash the walls because doing so would liquify the stains and make them more prone to bleeding through. On that job I didn't wash, sprayed the entire place with shellac based primer, and then top coated with two coats of latex. Never had a problem with bleed through and this place was BAD. Just checked with my tech guy and he said you could go either way - wash or not wash as long as you use the sealing primer. So, washing may be an unnecessary step. Would be curious to hear what others say specifically on this.
In the bacon grease situation I would definitely wash with a degreaser before priming and painting.
Soap and cosmetic residue (ex. hairspray) in bathrooms can sometimes be as bad as grease. Another must wash location.


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## roads (Jul 19, 2011)

*another mickeymouse painter*



bjg5240 said:


> My painter didn't use a cheap flat as a primer, then a topcoat. He just fired up the sprayer and single coated everything, including the newly installed drywall with the M.A.B Eclipse.
> 
> I think he's starting to cut corners because he under priced the job. The house is about 2800sq ft and is completely empty. He priced it out at $4300.00 for a single color for the whole house, not to mention several rooms of wallpaper removal. I ended up going with a few colors in the bedrooms & family room, so I'm sure he'll jack up the price. I'm guessing he should have priced it closer to $7000.00 if not more. I tryed to upload some pics, but apparently the files are too large.


First a few questions.
Did the painters back-roll the new sheet-rock?
$4300.00 is about right for a 2800sqft "new" work, works out to around 1.50 per sqft, what area are you in? This is about the going rate in NC.
Did you watch them the whole time?
In my experience painting over stains and thats what nicotine is, you need to use a stain blocker (theres some really good latex stain blockers also) on the nicotine stained walls or your going to have flashing and bleeding, the new sheet-rock needs a sealing primer or you will get pealing, if they are spraying then they should be back rolling what they spray, you can get away with not back rolling the repainted walls but when you spray new sheet-rock without back-rolling you will never touch it up without seeing where you put the brush and roller. People like this baffle me and I can't understand how they stay in business. 
_____________________________________
www.colormehughes.com


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

If he stated primer and didn't use it I wouldn't pay him until he put a coat of primer and paint on those walls. In fact, if the guy was getting screwy about doing it per his proposal, I might just have a different painter do it and tell him to fug off. If you do let him do it you watch him like a hawk.

Don't let a hack sub get over on you, your client deserves better than that. The job of the GC isn't always to "go along and get along."

ETA: I've painted a nicotine house and it still looks great 4 years later (we live there). However, I washed with TSP, applied oil base primer and applied one coat of latex. I couldn't imagine doing less.


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## artiospainting (Mar 16, 2011)

ask to see the primer re seat. If he cant come up with one. he will know hes caught. hell cover it with I had the primer off another job he still should have one then ask to see the other job to see how much primer he bout and needed. see if hes nervous. if priming was part of the job [it would be for me] then he s cutting corners and needs not to be paid . at lest something. or kicked off the job and not paid. sting ed a little. tell him you will send him a bill for re sheeting and painting. so its dun rite. they think there's nothing you can do now. but you wont it done rite so you have to remove the Sheetrock and repaint. you cant strip it. that Du's sound harsh. But how would you co recked it. Have a porta potty with you to catch his ****.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

Worst smoker repaint I did was in a home of 2 smokers, hadn't been painted in 25 years. Started with cleaning the walls and the tar kept bleeding back out of the paint anyway, you could literally watch the brown oozing back out. After half a day just trying to clean one room we gave up trying to preclean and primed everything with Binz shellac. Nasty nasty job but Binz solved the problem, absolutely nothing bled back through that stuff.


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## researchhound (Sep 5, 2010)

dsconstructs said:


> Worst smoker repaint I did was in a home of 2 smokers, hadn't been painted in 25 years. *Started with cleaning the walls and the tar kept bleeding back out of the paint anyway, you could literally watch the brown oozing back out.* After half a day just trying to clean one room we gave up trying to preclean and primed everything with Binz shellac. Nasty nasty job but Binz solved the problem, absolutely nothing bled back through that stuff.


That was sort of my point in the previous post on this. Washing may actually make the situation worse, at best it won't help. Let's face it - washing walls with this stuff on them is a sh---y job and unless it actually is beneficial then perhaps it should be skipped. I'm not advocating taking a short cut here - I'm for anything that is necessary and will make for a better job. Just wondering if it's assumed that washing is required and so it's done, when in fact, going straight to priming with the shellac based primer may be the best way to go. Would like to hear from anyone who didn't wash but primed with the proper stain sealing primer and then had bleed through issues.
The job I had to do was my mother-in-law's house after she died (not [surprisingly] from lung cancer). She'd been a heavy smoker all her life. Walls we thought were green were actually yellow - a fact we only discovered when the pictures were taken down. Our son was fourteen at the time and was beginning to experiment with smoking. Had him help me prep some on this job and after he saw the crap on the walls he stopped messing around with the smokes. Sprayed the entire place with shellac based primer. One of the nastiest jobs I ever had to do. Even a top quality respirator with fresh cartridges didn't keep me from getting dizzy and developing a bad headache.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

As you stated in your earlier post I also think that certain things MUST be washed before priming. The tar from smoking.....depends on the situation, IMO semigloss still wash first because so much of it is on the surface, eggshell depends on the sheen, but with flat I've found that so much of it just soaks into it that it just isn't even worth trying to wash. 

I haven't found any latex primer that would do, cover stain was hit and miss, but shellac has always been a winner. Yep, nasty stuff to work with though...I've found the same thing even with a good respirator (granted it wasn't fresh air fed) but spraying a whole house with shellac still left me with a screaming headache afterwards.


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## researchhound (Sep 5, 2010)

dsconstructs said:


> As you stated in your earlier post I also think that certain things MUST be washed before priming. The tar from smoking.....depends on the situation, IMO semigloss still wash first because so much of it is on the surface, eggshell depends on the sheen, but with flat I've found that so much of it just soaks into it that it just isn't even worth trying to wash.
> 
> I haven't found any latex primer that would do, cover stain was hit and miss, but shellac has always been a winner. Yep, nasty stuff to work with though...I've found the same thing even with a good respirator (granted it wasn't fresh air fed) but spraying a whole house with shellac still left me with a screaming headache afterwards.


You make an excellent point about the type of surface the nicotine residue is on determining whether to wash or not. That's one reason I always wash kitchen and bathrooms - usually done in semi or satin and a residue of some kind is always present. 
I've tried a few of the new latex primers (ex. Smart Prime) and they can be good for some applications but not for difficult staining.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

True about the primers, depending on the situation there are great latex primers that take care of the majority of needs, cover stain I really like if it needs to be oil.......but smoker's tar is just plain brutal. 
A sneaky one is heavy hair spray residue.


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## roads (Jul 19, 2011)

dsconstructs said:


> As you stated in your earlier post I also think that certain things MUST be washed before priming. The tar from smoking.....depends on the situation, IMO semigloss still wash first because so much of it is on the surface, eggshell depends on the sheen, but with flat I've found that so much of it just soaks into it that it just isn't even worth trying to wash.
> 
> I haven't found any latex primer that would do, cover stain was hit and miss, but shellac has always been a winner. Yep, nasty stuff to work with though...I've found the same thing even with a good respirator (granted it wasn't fresh air fed) but spraying a whole house with shellac still left me with a screaming headache afterwards.


I thought shellac was a oil base, I'd be hard pressed to paint a latex over shellac but I'll give it a try and see how it works out, I think I have a few different types of boards around here to try it on, thx for the idea...


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## researchhound (Sep 5, 2010)

roads said:


> I thought shellac was a oil base, I'd be hard pressed to paint a latex over shellac but I'll give it a try and see how it works out, I think I have a few different types of boards around here to try it on, thx for the idea...


We're talking shellac based _primers_ here - not straight shellac. I use Zinsser All Prime but there are others. It's designed to be a universal primer - suitable for under latex or oil, exterior and interior. I've used it as a stain sealing primer prior to latex top coating for longer than I can remember (literally) and never had something that it didn't seal in or where the top coat failed. Just be sure to wear a good respirator (not particle mask) because this stuff is potent. :tongue_smilie:


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## fischerj1980 (Jul 22, 2011)

He could have done a quick sanding on the walls put a coat of BIN's shilack (not spelled right) that will hide any stains and seal in any odors. The bins is alcohol based not oil so the oils in the tar and nicotine. Won't bleed through. Then 2 coats of grahms or equal quality ceramic flat paint it touches up good and is washable. I'll be surprised if what he did works sorry


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

roads said:


> I thought shellac was a oil base, I'd be hard pressed to paint a latex over shellac but I'll give it a try and see how it works out, I think I have a few different types of boards around here to try it on, thx for the idea...


Shellac and oil based are indeed two different animals......including oil based uses mineral spirits for thinning/cleanup. Shellac cleans up with denatured alcohol. 
And yes we're talking about shellac based primers, never a problem with latex sticking long term.....it's not like painting latex over oil paint.


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