# Union Labor



## George Hoenig (Feb 8, 2008)

The Ibew is the biggest scam there is they dont work over priced and never finish a job on time I think that all the contractors should get together and change how the system works in regaurds to union. When a stewart has the "I cant be fired" attitude then how do you control your jobs and how can you stay in bussiness. Its pretty bad that I had to use union subs on a retail project and had to have microwaves on cart for every space I was working on. Next we will have to pack their lunch and dress them too.:thumbsup:


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

Only microwaves? No buffet table and espresso machine? Maaan, you got off easy!


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

This ought to be interesting.


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## excellencee (Feb 1, 2007)

Microwaves?? Back when I was working out of the hall we were lucky to have a porta-john. Sometimes didn't even have a patch of woods to use.


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## nitrox2595 (Dec 23, 2006)

I agree 100%. I had 2 laborers that took a whole day to cut a soffit off, and my guys did it in 2 hours. the unions suck, and are a waste of money.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

2 words, "Crafts Services".


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

George Hoenig said:


> The Ibew is the biggest scam there is they dont work over priced and never finish a job on time I think that all the contractors should get together and change how the system works in regaurds to union. When a stewart has the "I cant be fired" attitude then how do you control your jobs and how can you stay in bussiness. Its pretty bad that I had to use union subs on a retail project and had to have microwaves on cart for every space I was working on. Next we will have to pack their lunch and dress them too.:thumbsup:


Paint with a broad brush much?


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

PARA1 said:


> Only microwaves? No buffet table and espresso machine? Maaan, you got off easy!


*iS BREAK TIME OVER ALREADY?*


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

I was a union shop for 3 months, supposedly until the restaurant I built got done. I joined to keep the peace on a town center project. One of the dumbest things I even did. The union guys were harder to get rid of than ants at a picnic. I will never work union again. They must do some good things though. Any of you union guys willing to explain that? Why do you think union is better?


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

silvertree said:


> Why do you think union is better?


Benefits is the first thing that comes to mind. I get medical, dental, vision, and free legal coverage as part of my benefits. There is also the retirement package, which is set up to provide 2/3 of our working income at age 62 when combined with SS, and there is an available 401k for those that choose to utilize it. It is also nice to be able to make a decent wage without having to work two jobs or 80 hours a week.

Believe it or not, there are true craftsman that are also union, not all of us are lazy check collectors. My local expelled 154 members last year for poor workmanship, and I work in the model for union towns, even the meter maids are union.


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

da well gee i are dum scab shop and ween i work davis bacon i get scale and h&w package and dont pay twice for hospitalization my wife already has or contribute to a collective bargiang unit all the money goes in my pocket.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> Benefits is the first thing that comes to mind. I get medical, dental, vision, and free legal coverage as part of my benefits. There is also the retirement package, which is set up to provide 2/3 of our working income at age 62 when combined with SS, and there is an available 401k for those that choose to utilize it. It is also nice to be able to make a decent wage without having to work two jobs or 80 hours a week.
> 
> Believe it or not, there are true craftsman that are also union, not all of us are lazy check collectors. My local expelled 154 members last year for poor workmanship, and I work in the model for union towns, even the meter maids are union.


Thanks, I was never union except for a few months. I have a good friend who runs one of only 2 union remodelers in the Twin Cities. I respect the guy and everyone in his outfit is top notch. I know there are bums who hide behind the union and I know the union is a good place to get decent tradesmen. Nowadays the line has blurred. There are plenty of non-union bums out there too. When I was union only the crew was, I opted out as the owner. There were problems for me later when I finished the project, the union went back on its word and said once your union your always union. That episode was a lot like the Sopranos checking up on me now and then.


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## MIbeachbuilder (Feb 6, 2008)

:whistling:whistling:whistling
thinking........
:shifty:
looking.......
:shutup:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

George Hoenig said:


> When a stewart has the "I cant be fired" attitude then how do you control your jobs and how can you stay in bussiness. Its pretty bad that I had to use union subs on a retail project and had to have microwaves on cart for every space I was working on.


Have you read all the contract languages that allowed these things to happen?
...or did someone just get the best of you?

I'm thinking you got bested.


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## steves (Feb 8, 2007)

:hang::hang:I'd rather hang than be union!
:drink::stupid::ban::bangin:Might as well get drunk,carry signs then hit yourself on the head!

But thats just me,I don't belong to any union so I can have a opinion!


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

do not forget that there are at minimum 2 perspectives here...one being the contractor and 1 being the employee...

what's good for the employee may not be good for the employer, and vice versa...


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Foolish Yankee Imperialist Scum. Soon after the glorious Peoples Republic of China invades you will all wish for dogflesh scraps rather than squabble over union vs non union. Same goes for ground up or ground down. And taped wirenuts. Only kidding guys, unload your weapons. :laughing:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

macmikeman said:


> Foolish Yankee Imperialist Scum. Soon after the glorious Peoples Republic of China invades you will all wish for dogflesh scraps rather than squabble over union vs non union. Same goes for ground up or ground down. And taped wirenuts. Only kidding guys, unload your weapons. :laughing:


i see your wife is planning on world domination?:laughing:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

I know quite a few hard working IBEW guys.

Who cares any way what a rinky dink outfit thinks. All the big name GC's that are national and international are Union with some smaller local shops. Then there are the Union subs that are local good shops. I don't hear these problems you are whining about.

Though there was a company I was working for last month that that hired labor ready labors. they had some construction management problems but blamed them on the work force. Which was BS. so their morning motivational speech was if you don't work harder then the non union companies will take these jobs. I damn near lost it laughing. Since they had also said this was the companies biggest job. LOL this job was big but not that big. Hell one local non union GC could take that job. They would hire Union subs anyway. LOL

By the way I drug up on them.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

mahlere said:


> i see your wife is planning on world domination?:laughing:


Nah, her ancestry is Japanese and they already shot their wad once on that. :laughing:


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## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

steves said:


> :hang::hang:I'd rather hang than be union!
> :drink::stupid::ban::bangin:Might as well get drunk,carry signs then hit yourself on the head!
> 
> But thats just me,I don't belong to any union so I can have a opinion!


 
I'm 100% Union and I have all kinds of opinions. Can I come watch you hang?


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

sometimes I wish I had joined a union years ago and sometimes I don't. I see very high quality union work around here and it gets done amazingly fast, Places like starbucks and Eckard Pharmacies and shopping malls, your chain stores and such seem to spring up overnight and the quality as far as I can tell is excellent. I don't see them in the new home workforce though, Just underpaid subs getting beat up by clip board builders. Back in seventy five my union carpenter neighbor hooked me up for an apprenticeship test. I was 20 with no trade school training using only the knowledge I had from books and such and being a sidewalk superintendent since i was seven. I had a passing grade but didn't score high enough to beat out 124 applicants for the 24 they were taking that year.


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## heavyduty73 (Jan 23, 2008)

George Hoenig said:


> The Ibew is the biggest scam there is they dont work over priced and never finish a job on time I think that all the contractors should get together and change how the system works in regaurds to union. When a stewart has the "I cant be fired" attitude then how do you control your jobs and how can you stay in bussiness. Its pretty bad that I had to use union subs on a retail project and had to have microwaves on cart for every space I was working on. Next we will have to pack their lunch and dress them too.:thumbsup:


Does that mean i can assume that ALL non union trades are full of men and women who can't hold a job, drink beer while they work their 40 opps i mean their 25 hours a week and look like they live out of their work truck, based the few of them I have worked around. NO!!! I agree there are same bad seeds in my local and other locals that I have worked in. But there are also some of the finest craftsmen I've met working union, they care about their families their community and the country we live in. There are also many non-union trades that you can say the same things about.
:furious:I take it personal when you lump your experience with a few bad apples into grouping all union trades and their members into that group.

Are you a contractor that travels the country building your projects with your traveling crew of guys? maybe the local unions aren't real happy about you paying your guys wages what ever thay may be so that they can send that money back to their home towns and not spend it in the community in which they are working. while they are many local men union or non union willing and able to do the work. that would then spend it back in same community that they earned that money. especialy if any these jobs have public tax money from the local people to pay out of state wages. I believe in keeping it local first! then union. support your local businesses and they will thrive and make a better community to live in.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

> =George Hoenig;374044]The Ibew is the biggest scam there is they dont work over priced and never finish a job on time I think that all the contractors should get together and change how the system works in regaurds to union. When a stewart has the "I cant be fired" attitude then how do you control your jobs and how can you stay in bussiness. Its pretty bad that I had to use union subs on a retail project and had to have microwaves on cart for every space I was working on. Next we will have to pack their lunch and dress them too.:thumbsup:


who crapped in your shoes today?

First, since I am a member of the IBEW, I take that attack personally. If you felt helpless, then I would suggest you did not read any contract you were signatory to. 

Microwaves? The only folks with microwaves on the job I am just finishing up is the non-union GC.

Stewards can't be fired? Apparently this is a local thing as the stewards in my local have no protection due to their status. They can be replaced with another steward.

Over priced? We have to bid on jobs just like everybody else. If we were overpriced, we simply would not have work. I go to work everyday.

and to not finishing on time; well, the GC on my job seemed to think I was behind (actually wasn't) and he wanted more men on the job so we manned it up a bit from 2 guys to 6 guys with his statement that he would stay ahead of us. Well, one day later its back to 2 guys and we are standing around with or thumbs up our asses waiting for this guy to get anything done he said he would get done.

Lets see; the carpet folks have an area about 200 X 400 feet to carpet and lay a vinyl plank walkway around. They have had up to 5 men on it for nearly a week and they have 800 sq feet of the vinyl and about 45k sq feet of carpet _almost_ done (ya right, they have the main center glued and haven't finished the edge yet). Boy, that sure is productive of them. I have seen union guys that would have the entire carpet down in 3 days and the vinyl in another 3 or 4. Ya, those union guys sure are poky.

Now, to your "stewart" having an "I can't be fired attitude"; I suggest you talk to the STEWARD and tell him you want to get rid of stewart and hire John or Paul. BTW, I think Stewart us typically spelled Stuart although not always.

OH, you meant _steward_ didn't you. Well, I am so sorry my ignorant little uneducated ass could not understand what you meant when you could not even spell the term correctly. My mistake. 

So, because of that, should we expect that all non-union guys are illiterate especially since you apparently do not know what a comma, period, or apostrophe is; and God forbid you figure out how to use spell-check. 

I happen to enjoy being able to drive a different car to work than I do when I am dressed nicely. It is kind of tacky when the painter shows up to church in his multi-hued work truck and hops out with a tie on. It's so cute to see his little kids hop out of the back with a paint can stuck on their foot though. It would be nice if he could afford another vehicle to transport his family with.

and that guy with the teeth falling out of his head? well, if he didn't have $27k in med bills from the last child he and his wife had, he would be able to afford to get his teeth fixed so we could understand what the hell he was saying.

and let's see. It seems to come to mind that one of the larger GC's in my area (that finally went out of business, thank God) was booted off two or their last jobs. One, which I was working on, if it was't so serious, would even be funny. I got to know a few of the brickies and would kid around with them. I was walking past one and didn't see the requisite tool of the trade, a level, about so I asked, "where's your level?" to which he responded, "boss said we don't have time for a level and to put them away". I truly though he was joking back until I realized there actually were no levels around. Nobody had a level!
I guess that explains why that little 4 foot wide inset where the drinking fountains ended up had a course line that was out of level by 2 inches. Really looked bad after that ceiling guy put in the ceiling grid.

And have you ever seen an 80 foot tall wall with CMU + 2 inch foam insulation + air gap + red brick outer wall with NO wall ties between the red brick and the CMU? Come on over and I'll show you one.

and that flatbed semi-trailer that the rewire ladders for the CMU stack just kept getting bigger and bigger. When I asked the bricky about it, he said it was supposed to be every other course and asked me (jokingly) "don't you see it in the wall?"

You want to trade crap stories? I can assure you I can find stories that will make your head swim about non-union contractors.

Now, don't take that to mean ALL non-union contractors are bad or that I believe they are. I also know some good ones as well and I surely would not want anybody to think I would lay a blanket statement out there like that. Only a dumbass would make such a blanket statement like that.

You wouldn't make such a blanket statement like that would you George?

Oh, and to helping me dress? Nah, but you can KMA.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

i think the OP is a perfect example of what's wrong with the local's officials..the OP obviously is/was not ever a union member nor a union shop...

when he went that way for this project, the hall sent him the dregs of the hall...the guys who are basically unemployable. He definitely was not provided the "A Team" so to speak.

it's always been, and for the foreseeable future will be, a big problem. If you are a contractor with some juice, you get guys who are competent. If you are a new contractor, the unions will just as soon bury you and not think twice about it...

even the die hard union guys have to admit that there are, in every hall, a group of guys who are completely incapable of performing their jobs....and they only get sent out for situations like the OP...


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

When i worked for Whiting-Turner we used alot of union and alot of non union.
For the most part, the electricians, plumbers, concrete, ect there wasnt that much of a difference. they all did good work. they were all professional. the stories about open shop guys doing brick wrong and such happen if there union or not. i have had things like that happen on both sides. i would blame the construction manager for not having a quality control program to check that stuff. we did and we would find these problems before any real problems came up.
Like stated above, all contractors bid on the job. price wasnt an issue for us.
as far as benefits, i get probably as good if not better than any union that i know of. it really depends on the company.

the only place i noticed a difference was the union laborers. all they did was whine about money and not do anything right. i guess thats why they are only laborers. they used to complain about having to clean up the site and sweeping. if you dont like it, then dont be a laborer.
the only other way was to hire temp laborers, who only know 4 words of english.

i am not sure whats worse, a good worker who cant understand what your telling them to do, or a fat lazy one who just doesnt do what you tell them.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

mahlere said:


> do not forget that there are at minimum 2 perspectives here...one being the contractor and 1 being the employee...
> 
> what's good for the employee may not be good for the employer, and vice versa...


exactly. i am sure the union employees love it. they get good wages and benefits. the companies that hire those employees probably dont like it cause they have to make less money to stay competitive. 
electricians, plumbers, hvac contractors dont really have a huge problem as you have to take classes and be educated in what you are doing to do it.
to lay bricks all you have to have is a trowel. 
I would like to see licences required to do any work. you would have to take some classes, much like the union does. the big diffrence would be the hall would be gone. each person would be responsible for them selves. if you do a crappy job, no one is forced to hire you. if you dont show up for the classes or keep up with your lic, then you can work. i think it would shape up alot of the bad image the construction industry has and everyone could make a fair wage for what they do. 

maybee i am abnormal, but i wear clean pants, a collared shirt, and drive a clean truck to work everyday. 

nap, i am non union. yet some how i seem to have a work truck and a car. hmm, interesting. how is it a non union guy like me could afford to have his wife stay at home to take care of his baby, and still afford 2 cars and a work truck? :blink:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

chris klee said:


> nap, i am non union. yet some how i seem to have a work truck and a car. hmm, interesting. how is it a non union guy like me could afford to have his wife stay at home to take care of his baby, and still afford 2 cars and a work truck? :blink:


chris....nap was not making a blanket statement as the OP did:


nap said:


> Now, don't take that to mean ALL non-union contractors are bad or that I believe they are. I also know some good ones as well and *I surely would not want anybody to think I would lay a blanket statement out there like that*. *Only a dumbass would make such a blanket statement like that.*
> 
> You wouldn't make such a blanket statement like that would you George?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

chris klee said:


> nap, i am non union. yet some how i seem to have a work truck and a car. hmm, interesting. how is it a non union guy like me could afford to have his wife stay at home to take care of his baby, and still afford 2 cars and a work truck? :blink:


chris....nap was not making a blanket statement as the OP did:


nap said:


> ...d *I surely would not want anybody to think I would lay a blanket statement out there like that*. *Only a dumbass would make such a blanket statement like that.*
> 
> * You wouldn't make such a blanket statement like that would you George?*


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

Laborers are always my biggest problem not all but more than any other craft , seems theyre always are jelous of craftsmen who make more than them and have an additude problem but wont upgrade or learn a trade,work only when they need money or are out of unemployment comp ,dont show after payday untill they are out of money or are asking for a loan for gas/beer:drink: so they can come to work or the classic the old lady drops them off for work.Its to the point where I pay scale to the craft involved for cleanup and dont use them.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

> electricians, plumbers, hvac contractors dont really have a huge problem as you have to take classes and be educated in what you are doing to do it.
> to lay bricks all you have to have is a trowel.


You obviously have NO clue as what you're talking about: 

*To lay bricks all you have to have is a trowel*

Oh really???? Who needs apprenticeship programs when all you have to do is buy a trowel & presto, changeo, your now a brickie??




> Microwaves? The only folks with microwaves on the job I am just finishing up is the non-union GC.


Back in my union days, I can think of plenty of commercial jobs where we had microwaves on the site. So what???? 





> You want to trade crap stories? I can assure you I can find stories that will make your head swim about non-union contractors.


I have no problem with trade crap stories. I can also assure you that I can find plenty of stories that will make your head swim about union contractors.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Brickie said:


> You obviously have NO clue as what you're talking about:
> 
> *To lay bricks all you have to have is a trowel*
> 
> ...


you are missing the point and becoming defensive when you were not addressed nor were non-union folks IN GENERAL. I addressed the OP because of his attack on union sparks and was replying to him. Of course I can tell crap stories about each side of the coin but OP was addressing how bad union members are and I was merely defending that attack. I never stated there were no problems with unions yet OP seemed to think ONLY union workers were a problem.

Get it???

and thanks celtic for defending me on this. 

I posted:



> Now, don't take that to mean ALL non-union contractors are bad or that I believe they are. I also know some good ones as well and I surely would not want anybody to think I would lay a blanket statement out there like that. Only a dumbass would make such a blanket statement like that.
> 
> You wouldn't make such a blanket statement like that would you George?


I guess some of those non-union guys don;t know how to read either.:w00t:

Through all of this, if nobody noticed, it is often the contractor that is the problem more than the labor. If a good brickie is told to perform substandard work, he has a choice to make; work, or not. Regardless of how good he can do the work if allowed, if the contractor demands substandard work because as we all know, good work takes time and time is money, the best guys in the world are not going to kick out good work.

Now, the non-union contractors often employ the lesser skilled of a trade (not always. I know some fantastic non-union guys in most all trades) but the reason they do so is; MONEY. They want to pay less and typically, less pay equals less of a quality worker. There is also less training required for the non-union crafts as well. I spent 5 arduous years going to school for my trade. I know very few non-union electricians who have had much of any training let alone the amount of training a union electrician receives. Not that all non-union tradesman are not skilled or trained but being realistic about what it really is out there.



> chris klee:
> I would like to see licences required to do any work. you would have to take some classes, much like the union does. the big diffrence would be the hall would be gone. each person would be responsible for them selves. if you do a crappy job, no one is forced to hire you. if you dont show up for the classes or keep up with your lic, then you can work. i think it would shape up alot of the bad image the construction industry has and everyone could make a fair wage for what they do.


hate to tell you this Chris but if work quantity, quality, and attitude are not what a contractor wants, the man is gone. There is nothing to prevent a contractor from sending a man back to the hall.

Each man IS responsible for himself. You seem to miss the advantage the contractor has which is access to a labor pool of (for the most part) qualified electricians. How many non-union contractors hang out a help wanted sign or place an add and have to wade through whatever shows up to find a man. The union guy calls the hall and says, send me 1 or 3 or 20 guys and they show up with the contractor knowing they have all either been through the apprenticeship or at least been tested for their knowledge to become a union member.

That, along with work rules is very important. It is always good for there to be a set of rules that all know so as to avoid misunderstandings.

That, and the fact that all of the employees benefits follow him from contractor to contractor is a huge benefit. The insurance is continuous as he transfers from employer to employer. Then pension as well.

This allows a contractor to have a ready pool of workers that because of the situation, do not fear being laid off nearly as much as the non-union guy becuase the worker already knows that he does not start from square one everytime he starts with a new employer. Of course nobody wants to be laid off but if you knew that your insurance and pension would be with you as you started with the new employer, don't you think that would provide a bit of piece of mind?


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

> you are missing the point and becoming defensive when you were not addressed nor were non-union folks IN GENERAL.


 
Baloney Nap. Reread my reply to the post that said:

_electricians, plumbers, hvac _contractors_ dont really have a huge problem as you have to take classes and be educated in what you are doing to do it. *to lay bricks all you have to have is a trowel.*_

According to the poster, completeing my apprenticeship with the IUBAC was a waste of time. All I had to do was go just buy a trowel that would have made me a brickie....:laughing:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Fact of the matter is that in most areas, if you're a small operator and you need to staff big work, using union labor is one of the very few (perhaps only) ways you can staff it.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Brickie said:


> Baloney Nap. Reread my reply to the post that said:
> 
> _electricians, plumbers, hvac _contractors_ dont really have a huge problem as you have to take classes and be educated in what you are doing to do it. *to lay bricks all you have to have is a trowel.*_
> 
> :laughing:


sorry about that. I did not reduce the quote to what I intended it to be. Concerning you, I was adressing the crap stories statement.

I do agree with you about your defense in the brick trade. Not that it requires the same type of training that a spark or a carpenter requires but it does require training, and an intelligent person, to become a good brickie.

anybody can throw mud and stack brick but it takes a craftsman to make it look good and be structurally sound and not order 5 bunks too much and ........

Better?


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

nap said:


> sorry about that. I did not reduce the quote to what I intended it to be. Concerning you, I was adressing the crap stories statement.
> 
> I do agree with you about your defense in the brick trade. Not that it requires the same type of training that a spark or a carpenter requires but it does require training, and an intelligent person, to become a good brickie.
> 
> ...


 
Better?? Hell No! You obviously have no idea on the type of training that goes on in the masonry trade:no::no::no:


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Nap, I hate to tell you but any idiot with an instruction manual can do electrical, plumbing, or HVAC. It requires skill that can only be learned by doing to lay masonry.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> Nap, I hate to tell you but any idiot with an instruction manual can do electrical, plumbing, or HVAC. It requires skill that can only be learned by doing to lay masonry.



I can't say I agree with this statement.

Where can I get an instruction manual for designing a waste and vent system for a 36 story condo building?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Why would an idiot have to? I can find out how to wire a panel, replace an A-coil, or install a toilet in any number of places, and can then do so. Not as fast or as easy as an expert, but 100% within code and acceptable in all respects. Try building a simple brick mailbox if you never have.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

Celtic said:


> chris....nap was not making a blanket statement as the OP did:


i know, i was just reinforcing the same point. the point being that every person/ company/ local is its own, and may be 100% different than the next one.
i do think i have it better than most open shop guys


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

I love it! :clap::laughing:
Squabbling trades!
Dueling craftsmen!
Everyone knows, it's all easy....
except for mine!!!!
What's difficult is trying to keep
all of these prima donnas 
in a line long enough 
to march them through
a project!

Listen to yourselves!
You *ALL* know better.
They are all *skilled trades*.
A good mason is an artist,
look at some of the masonry
picture posts.
Just any idiot can't plumb a high rise.
I don't think that you can walk in
off the street and tackle 
a 400 amp service.
(Of course carpenters are
king cause we have to put up
with all of you!) :laughing:


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Skilled trades all, but some are technical skills and some are muscle memory skills. Reading manuals will not help you much when skimming drywall joints or cutting in crown, but it can get you through it to install a faucet or make a duct run.


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## In_Mexifornia (Mar 7, 2007)

I worked for the Carpenters Union here in California for a few years back in the 90's and all of the jobs were big and all were on schedule. I guess I'd say there were a few bad apples in the bunch, but many were hard working guys that I would say were paid accordingly.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Brickie said:


> Better?? Hell No! You obviously have no idea on the type of training that goes on in the masonry trade:no::no::no:


fine, whatever you want. I'm not going to kiss your ass. I had no intent to insult. I left the statement open ended so you could add whatever your little heart desired but you have to claim you are a God. I have worked around and with brickies for way too long to not understand their job and training and just because I do not list a syllabus for your training I know nothing.

whatever

and to neo, just be careful. I have given electric ladders for Christmas present occasionally to carpenters I _really_ like.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

> fine, whatever you want. I'm not going to kiss your ass. I had no intent to insult. I left the statement open ended so you could add whatever your little heart desired but you have to claim you are a God.


I never said you or anyone else has to KMA nor did I ever claim that "I'm God"




> I have worked around and with brickies for way too long to not understand their job and training and just because I do not list a syllabus for your training I know nothing.


 
While you may have worked some Brickies, your previous posts clear show that you nor the guy the guy that posted the "all you need is a trowel" don't know jack about Union Bricklayer training. 

For example: 

A part of my Union Bricklayer training included *crane assembly, welding & rigging*. :thumbsup:


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Brickie said:


> A part of my Union Bricklayer training included *crane assembly, welding & rigging*. :thumbsup:


yep, the brickies were taking a welding class that was right after mine. The funniest thing is how afraid they are of electricity. Scared to death they were going to get killed from them damn welders.:w00t:

So how did the classes on trig go, or vector functions? Oh, that's right, you guys don;t deal with that stuff. All I said is you have different training than the sparks or woodchucks do and you get all defensive. Sounds kind of like the guy with the little dick. He puffs himself all up and tries to claim how big he is yet he still has to drive the biggest fastest car around to make up for his inadequacies.

Looks like you are driving that car brickie.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

nap said:


> ....
> and to neo, just be careful. I have given electric ladders for Christmas present occasionally to carpenters I _really_ like.


This Christmas I hope you ask 
Santa for a sense of humor.:thumbsup::laughing:


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

> All I said is you have different training than the sparks or woodchucks do and you get all defensive.


Let me refresh your memory. You wrote:

"I have worked around and with brickies for way too long to not understand their job and training" 

I merely pointed out that you clearly don't




> Sounds kind of like the guy with the little dick.


Well it's obvious that a guy with a little dick like you would be an expert on that subject:w00t:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

neolitic said:


> This Christmas I hope you ask
> Santa for a sense of humor.:thumbsup::laughing:


only if it's in the collective bargaining agreement...otherwise, it ain't his job:whistling


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

neolitic said:


> This Christmas I hope you ask
> Santa for a sense of humor.:thumbsup::laughing:


Oh, I have a sense of humor. I find it extremely humorous that the brickie would continue to chastize me for a point which;
first, was not intended for him;
second, was never directed to him in any sort of derogatory manner;
third, that he seems to have some idea what my knowledge of his trade is simply because I do not have any intent of enumerating the details of his training or work;
fourth, that he somehow believes the techinical level of his training is anywhere near the level an electrician recieves;
fifth, that I really care what he does;
sixth, that any of it makes a rats ass difference to me;
seventh, that since he pissed me off, the brickies that I work around will now have to understand that the reason I cut my conduit into short lenghts is for their benefit but since there is a brickie that wanted to hassle me, I will now run my conduits from box all the way to the highest deck in one continuous run and let them cut and split any and every block needed to build around my conduit. 

So Neo, how is that for a sense of humor???
and yes, points 5 and 6 are redundant (for you brickie, that would mean "repetitive") and that is just because I want brickie to understand that I really do not care about what his training consists of.

I was wondering though, in crane assembly, do they have directions like; place pin "A" in hole "B" and then insert hairpin "C" in hole "D" in pin "A". Are there pictures? I'm thinking pictures would really be a good thing for the brickies.


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

Watch it piss the mason off he will put mortar in the ends of your conduits!


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## jacsul (Dec 25, 2006)

*union labor*

Don't forget the TEAMSTERS, without them how would we get the goods we need to practice our crafts. 

God bless the TEAMSTERS.

Jack :clap:


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

cmec said:


> Watch it piss the mason off he will put mortar in the ends of your conduits!


they will already be up to the deck and capped off. If the cap is missing, guess who gets to pay for the repair on a back charge??


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

Brickie said:


> the guy the guy that posted the "all you need is a trowel" don't know jack about Union Bricklayer training.


you obviously missed the point of he whole comment. i said nothing about union either. to be a bricklayer you dont NEED any training. YOU have training. good for you, wish more people did cause i have worked with some real hacks that said they were bricklayers. they were the dumbasses with a trowel i was referring to, not some one who is competent like you seem to be.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

> you obviously missed the point of he whole comment. i said nothing about union either. to be a bricklayer you dont NEED any training.


You're the one that's missing the point. Just as the OP was painting with a broad brush about the IBEW, you're doing the same with regards "to be a bricklayer don't NEED any training" 

To be a competent (for you nap that means the non-hack type) bricklayer you NEED lots of training. The same can be said for carpenters, plumbers, electricians, etc.,


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## BrianG (Sep 1, 2007)

First off, I am a Union Carpenter Apprentice.

I've worked with carpenters that have worked union for 30+ years, some that worked non-union 15-20 years and joined the hall, and apprentices with years of experience or none at all.

And some that work union sometimes, non-union the rest.

Seeing a variety of backgrounds and training, my point is this:
*
You'll find excellent craftsmen and sorry asses on both sides of the isle, union or non-union. * 

One's workmanship, attitude, dependability and skill 
come from within but also from parents, teachers and those people in the trades one wants to emulate. 

I'm far from the best, but I keep plenty busy and each contractor I've worked for would have me back. It keeps me and mama fed, but its also a reinforcement in each of those contractors mind that staying union is a good idea. "Never be complacent," I was told at the beginning and it stays fresh in my mind always.

So is the non-union guy that works wide open for 20 years lazy when he joins the hall and keeps doing the same? Or the reverse?

Or say drunk hack joins the hall, gets a bad reputation and "starved out" and goes back to his old jobs. He's superior to those lazy union workers?

I am in Savannah, Georgia, and most union work is industrial and some commercial, very little residential (unfortunately). 

For you guys that bash union workmanship, take a look at residential and even a lot of commercial construction, which is largely non-union, at least here. Ray Charles would tell you that sh!t was out of plum or level. 

Where has the quality gone there? 

And if anyone is blindly pro-union, sometimes its time to clean house. If a contractor has a bad experience with some sorry workers, that will color their opinion when its time to renew the contract.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Yup, good and bad apples in both. I find that if I meet a guy looking for work with large gaps in his employment he's a putz whether he's union or not. I had an apprentice who went on to be the head carpenter at the U of M, which is union carpenters. He called me one day and thanked me for spending time and teaching him what I knew, one of the nicest compliments I ever had. Cause you know, I had plenty of guys leave because I didn't know anything.:jester:


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

Brickie said:


> You're the one that's missing the point. Just as the OP was painting with a broad brush about the IBEW, you're doing the same with regards "to be a bricklayer don't NEED any training"
> 
> To be a competent (for you nap that means the non-hack type) bricklayer you NEED lots of training. The same can be said for carpenters, plumbers, electricians, etc.,


are you stupid? try to actually read what i wrote. LEGALLY to be a mason, you dont need any training. to be a good mason, you do. just as every trade. 
any hack can walk up and be a carpenter, bricklayer, cement finisher, and so on. they wont be good at it with out some sort of training, but they can legally do it. hell, even a general contractor doesnt have to know anything to become a general contractor. 

get it now?


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

BrianG said:


> Ray Charles would tell you that sh!t was out of plum or level.
> 
> .


I love it. I vote this best post of the year.:clap:


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

> are you stupid? try to actually read what i wrote.


Chris K,

Perhaps you're the one stuck on stupid????

Maybe you should go back & reread what you posted earlier today at 11:25AM to refresh your memory:


You wrote:

"to be a bricklayer you dont NEED any training". 


These are your exact words that I & others have actually read


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

Brickie said:


> Chris K,
> 
> Perhaps you're the one stuck on stupid????
> 
> ...


read the rest of it.


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## Tesla (Feb 10, 2007)

The original question was in regards to the IBEW, 
not the masons
not the laborers
not the steam fitters
not the tin knockers (sp)
not the flight controlers
not the nurses
not the police
not the teachers
etc, etc, etc, .............................

So back to the original question - I went through the IBEW Inside apprentice progam 5 1/2 years A-Construction. Spent many an evening drinking wirelube and eating bug nuts. Finally I graduate to find an economy and a union in need of great repair.
The first year as a Journeyman employment (02) was great lots of folks made some cash, after that becomes a much different story.
Seen some guys "JAM" thier cards into the local, seen some guys just take a test to turn a 90 and spin a wirenut to get thier card. Seen some guys just being related to the Vice President get jobs, which they hold to this day for 110K plus per year."
My story so far, as many find difficult to believe, I have been a union member in good standing for six years, four of which have been out of work.
4 out of 6 out of work, do the math.

I get my license
I get my Inspectors Certificates
Open Sub-S Corp.
Work NON-Union
Get expelled from my union.

Blessings from the IBEW, given the 45 day referal program I did a great thing for myself and family. And as far as the quality of work, it has passed to sub-par as far as I have seen. The workers are running scared for thier jobs and will do whatever it takes to get a job done.
IBEW is a scam I concur!

To those that are working = God Bless
To those that are not = Oh Well
Quote taken from the B.M., Head in Charge

Another quote:
Eat or be Eaten!

Does this sound union to you?
I did to me coming from a delegate making 115K per year and I had to take $12 dollar per hour job.

Thanks Guys!


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

All I know is that in 1982 the IBEW selected a non-union General to build their HQ/investment property in Houston. They said they could not afford the union bids. <shrug>

Edit-They struck their OWN BUILDING project over the non-union firm they signed contracts with!


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Tscarborough said:


> All I know is that in 1982 the IBEW selected a non-union General to build their HQ/investment property in Houston. They said they could not afford the union bids. <shrug>
> 
> Edit-They struck their OWN BUILDING project over the non-union firm they signed contracts with!


was this a locals building? Since IBEW HQ is in Washington DC, I would think so. I still do not believe it is correct but it may be just the local and not the IO involvement.


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## GSE (Aug 24, 2007)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> Benefits is the first thing that comes to mind. I get medical, dental, vision, and free legal coverage as part of my benefits. There is also the retirement package, which is set up to provide 2/3 of our working income at age 62 when combined with SS, and there is an available 401k for those that choose to utilize it. It is also nice to be able to make a decent wage without having to work two jobs or 80 hours a week.
> 
> Believe it or not, there are true craftsman that are also union, not all of us are lazy check collectors. My local expelled 154 members last year for poor workmanship, and I work in the model for union towns, even the meter maids are union.


My neighbor is a window siding contractor, he has never been so happy and says he is finally making a decent living, he go rid of od non union help, and went union, has 2 guys now that are doing the work of 4, and he does not have to baby sit jobs any more. 

It,s funny unions fought to get trades decent wages and benifits, and now it seems the main ones complaining are contactors want to bid cheap and pay low wages, not their own wage of course.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

GSE said:


> It,s funny unions fought to get trades decent wages and benifits, and now it seems the main ones complaining are contactors want to bid cheap and pay low wages, not their own wage of course.


Unions membership has been steadily declining for many years. I know that first hand since I used to help organize. "Salting" was something I was good at. 

I can tell you for a fact that I make more money now than I ever did as a union member. I'm NON-Union and Proud of It!:thumbsup:


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## GSE (Aug 24, 2007)

Brickie said:


> Unions membership has been steadily declining for many years. I know that first hand since I used to help organize. "Salting" was something I was good at.
> 
> I can tell you for a fact that I make more money now than I ever did as a union member. I'm NON-Union and Proud of It!:thumbsup:


 
For anyone that wants to make good, they will do it if they have the drive.

Union labor helped build this country, and made it possible for many to get decent wages today, do anyone really thing companies would just pay good wages and offer benifits without unions and workers fighting for better conditions. Once the unions are broken, then companies can return to low wages and take back benifits, and the non union shops will earn even less.


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

Tesla said:


> The original question was in regards to the IBEW,
> not the masons
> not the laborers
> not the steam fitters
> ...


 

Yes this sounds union to me !

First I would like to thank the moderators on this site for being open minded when I posted similar things on mike holt it dissapeered and they wrote somepthing about how bad it was to do so ,kind a bias/communistic but oh well any way heres part of my story.


I came up thru the rw program in the late seventies,we were the residental unit of local 10 not members of local 10, I had to do a rw apprenticeship other people didnt bms stepson ,contractors relatives etc,When it was time to upgrade to the inside program same thing happened.Got mad started my own shop then all the bs started in a recession in the 80s you have to pay h&w or you cant work with tools [still do], or you have to hire somone and you can work [still do].The ba followed me around usally two cars behind because he knew I would smack him, needless to say I tore the agreement up.Since then they have taken a few bottles of smart pills the country club additude has improved and theyve learnt you cant run a union without work ,the two county click jurisdiction was absorbed by local 5, the pension is cumulative between some locals , 4 counties up the ohio line are still a seprate local ,in the late seventies they worked a guy I know 9 yrs 6 mo and laid him off to beat him of vesting in their pension maybee that why Ed Hills the IP, Its funny I drive into Beaver County in a truck and it seems like somenes following me, go to a restarunt and hear 50s music kinda nostelgic:notworthy

Somepthing thats always stuck in mind is when we started the rw program the book history and structure of the IBEW it went into how the undertakers had price wars to bury linemen etc,it didnt go into the unwritten you ve described above nepotism,what families controlled the local,whos related to who,what other organizations they belonged to and you needed to join to brown nose or what bars to drink at .

When I look at the past as described, the way they screw tramps ,the salting,target money,and the the politics and way they put down open shop [even the ones that did their apprenticeship] as un qualified etc Then want me to pay for a full h&w package when my wife has better hospitalization,and tell me I have to take a placement test,and they cant guarntee apprenticeships for my kids,they need more smart pills I WILL DO IT OPEN SHOP


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## George Hoenig (Feb 8, 2008)

*ibew IS FULL OF ___________ IT*



heavyduty73 said:


> Does that mean i can assume that ALL non union trades are full of men and women who can't hold a job, drink beer while they work their 40 opps i mean their 25 hours a week and look like they live out of their work truck, based the few of them I have worked around. NO!!! I agree there are same bad seeds in my local and other locals that I have worked in. But there are also some of the finest craftsmen I've met working union, they care about their families their community and the country we live in. There are also many non-union trades that you can say the same things about.
> :furious:I take it personal when you lump your experience with a few bad apples into grouping all union trades and their members into that group.
> 
> Are you a contractor that travels the country building your projects with your traveling crew of guys? maybe the local unions aren't real happy about you paying your guys wages what ever thay may be so that they can send that money back to their home towns and not spend it in the community in which they are working. while they are many local men union or non union willing and able to do the work. that would then spend it back in same community that they earned that money. especialy if any these jobs have public tax money from the local people to pay out of state wages. I believe in keeping it local first! then union. support your local businesses and they will thrive and make a better community to live in.


iBEW WILL TAKE ANYBODY THEY GOT PEOPLE ON THE JOBS WITH OUT CARDS BY THE WAY TRY TO COLLECT YOUR RETIREMENT i WAS IN THIS IBEW SO WAS MY DAD NEVER GOT HIS MONEY IF YOU WORK HARD YOU SHOULD BE PAID GOOD AND LIVE GOOD BUT ONE THING DOES STAND OUT WERE DID ALL THE STEEL AND AUTO JOBS GO AND WHY THE UNIONS IF YOU DONT WANT TO WORK FOR THE PERSON PAYING THE WAGE THEN GO ELSE WERE THE UNIONS RUN JOBS OFF NOT THE EMPLOYER


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

George Hoenig said:


> iBEW WILL TAKE ANYBODY THEY GOT PEOPLE ON THE JOBS WITH OUT CARDS BY THE WAY TRY TO COLLECT YOUR RETIREMENT i WAS IN THIS IBEW SO WAS MY DAD NEVER GOT HIS MONEY IF YOU WORK HARD YOU SHOULD BE PAID GOOD AND LIVE GOOD BUT ONE THING DOES STAND OUT WERE DID ALL THE STEEL AND AUTO JOBS GO AND WHY THE UNIONS IF YOU DONT WANT TO WORK FOR THE PERSON PAYING THE WAGE THEN GO ELSE WERE THE UNIONS RUN JOBS OFF NOT THE EMPLOYER


Some punctuation might make that slightly readable.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Celtic said:


> Some punctuation might make that slightly readable.


it would also make him to intelligent to be an electrician...guess we're at an impasse:whistling


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

Celtic is that cannoli for coffee break:drink::drink::drink:,even though I am scab /open shop my IBEW / italian roots force us to have 2 or more a day some times longer than 15 minutes. sometimes we shut it down and go back to the shop and drink wine, of course my lead man and I shut the shop down for a few days in late september or early october to make wine we will even show our crew how to if they want to learn.

The shop where I started was IBEW the owner had 3 shops in 3 abbutting jurisdictions wonder why? may bee no portibility:laughing: so he had a producton meeting and told us no more stopping for coffee on the way to the jobs, mind you we came in 1/2 hour early and loaded the trucks but that didnt count. So we came in at 7 30 instead of 7, I stopped and got the donuts and coffee and had a break on the job:drink: you only get what you give to people.


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## BKFranks (Feb 19, 2008)

I know this is thread is pertaining to the IBEW and it being a scam and I just wanted to agree. I used to be in the carpenters union and I knew two people at the top. When I was laid-off, I could call these guys and have a new job the next day. There could be 500 guys out of work, but instead of one of those guys that had been waiting for 3 months for a job, it would go to me. Most of the guys probably don't even know that stuff like that happens, but it does. 

A guy could walk in off the street and become a carpenter. There's no test or requirements other then being 18 and a citizen, but when you showed up to the jobsite and if you didn't know what you were doing they'd flat out just send you packing. They treat carpenters like they were a dime a dozen because they know all they have to do is call up the union and the next day they can have a replacement. 

I haven't worked a union job in 11 years. Yes the pay might be more per hour as an employee, but you almost never work. No one can live like that.





Tesla said:


> The original question was in regards to the IBEW,
> not the masons
> not the laborers
> not the steam fitters
> ...


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## chris-da-mason (Dec 10, 2007)

the uaw sure did make the auto industry strong, its not like they are closing plants left and right because they cant afford to pay the very high health insurance, in most cases the auto industy was paying almost twice as much as average joe getting heath insurance himself from the same health provider.


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## odellconstruct (Mar 27, 2008)

union or non-union 


intent,drive,knowledge,
desire,proper tools =

quality workmanship !


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

chris-da-mason said:


> the uaw sure did make the auto industry strong, its not like they are closing plants left and right because they cant afford to pay the very high health insurance, in most cases the auto industy was paying almost twice as much as average joe getting heath insurance himself from the same health provider.


How much were the CEOs, et al, getting paid?


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## chris-da-mason (Dec 10, 2007)

Celtic said:


> How much were the CEOs, et al, getting paid?


 
more than they deserved, but how much are the union heads keeping for themselves. It realy doesnt matter if its a union or a giant corporation they all want to make the most money for themselves, isnt that what its all about to make money


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

chris-da-mason said:


> .. isnt that what its all about ...


In spite of popular myth, it's not the hokey-pokey :laughing:.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

chris-da-mason said:


> the uaw sure did make the auto industry strong, its not like they are closing plants left and right because they cant afford to pay the very high health insurance, in most cases the auto industy was paying almost twice as much as average joe getting heath insurance himself from the same health provider.



You are comparing apples to oranges, the UAW is a labor union, not a trade union.


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## chris-da-mason (Dec 10, 2007)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> You are comparing apples to oranges, the UAW is a labor union, not a trade union.


 
whats the difference a union is a union they both have the same goals.


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## Kaiser (Jan 22, 2008)

I believe the Union was great for this country at it's inception. People were treated like dogs back then and needed to band together for worker rights.

Today we have laws that protect employees, OSHA, Workers Comp. Minnimum Wage. Mandatory Overtime Pay, ect. (all because of the Unions of course)

All that being said, I have a hard time understanding how Journeyman standing still while waiting on laborers to move material or forcing a Contractor to hire a certain number of finishers per 1,000 square foot of concrete slab helps build a better America.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Kaiser said:


> All that being said, I have a hard time understanding how Journeyman standing still while waiting on laborers to move material or forcing a Contractor to hire a certain number of finishers per 1,000 square foot of concrete slab helps build a better America.


...maybe to put more men to work and less on the unemployment line?

Putting more men on requires less OT (usually) and stimulates a greater percentage of the economy.


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## Kaiser (Jan 22, 2008)

The goal is for everyone to have a job regardless of the cost?

So if I can build a shed with 2 carpenters I should hire a laborer and a superviser so 4 people get a paycheck.


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## nick114920 (Sep 24, 2007)

The union guys make way to much money... the border jumpers work for a 10th and will be taking your jobs before you know it... i say if you cant deport them then hire them... this attitude has made me a ton of $$... although i guess you could just complain you are out of business and show off your code book skills on here all day like CELTIC.. wat ever happen to good old rush limbough... TAKE THE JOB!!!!


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## Justbuilding (May 29, 2008)

> The union guys make way to much money


Based on what?
You're basing that statement based on someone who is here illegally, trying to feed themselves and a family that is worse off then they are?

I'm not saying all union help is great, pluses and minuses to both catagory of work, like has been written many times. It is the individual not the union that makes the worker.

I am all in favor of people coming to this country to make a better life for themselves and their families. The scum suckers that hire illegals for less then what it takes to live should have their citizenship removed and be deported to that 3rd world country.

Nick119420, apparently you don't have a problem making a ton of money, why should people have to work for 1/10th union scale so you can live how you like and enjoy?
If you truly are hiring illegals, I hope the IRS seizes everything you own, and the judge tosses your sorry azz into the deepest hell hole cell they can find.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Union vs, non-union:


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

nick114920 said:


> The union guys make way to much money... the border jumpers work for a 10th and will be taking your jobs before you know it... i say if you cant deport them then hire them... this attitude has made me a ton of $$... although i guess you could just complain you are out of business and show off your code book skills on here all day like CELTIC.. wat ever happen to good old rush limbough... TAKE THE JOB!!!!



Hey I'd just like to thank you for driving down wages for the working man and a Navy war veteran like myself. Nothing like having to compete with an illegal alien who sucks off the system. There is nothing professional about hiring illegals and I think by doing that you are hurting the rest of us when one of your workers has to go to the hospital with an injury from one of your jobs. I'd rather be like a Celtic who really knows the NEC than someone like you abusing the privilege of being a United States citizen.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

nick114920 said:


> The union guys make way to much money... the border jumpers work for a 10th and will be taking your jobs before you know it... i say if you cant deport them then hire them... this attitude has made me a ton of $$... although i guess you could just complain you are out of business and show off your code book skills on here all day like CELTIC.. wat ever happen to good old rush limbough... TAKE THE JOB!!!!



Dude you mentality is degrading to contractors. I don't even know where to begin. We are for the most part hard working men with many years under our belts and the guys that are coming up post here wanting to learn how to be good craftsmen and become successful at it. Most of your post are repulsive to respectable contractors. I have never taken post here the wrong way before but you sir are an ass


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

nick114920 said:


> The union guys make way to much money... the border jumpers work for a 10th and will be taking your jobs before you know it... i say if you cant deport them then hire them... this attitude has made me a ton of $$... although i guess you could just complain you are out of business and show off your code book skills on here all day like CELTIC.. wat ever happen to good old rush limbough... TAKE THE JOB!!!!


Thank you so very much for saying that.



It makes it so much easier to elevate other contractors status and reputable images when their are contractors denser than an Oak Tree.



Lets see, at $ 40.00 per hour union wages, someone is proud to staff their company with $ 4.00 per hour wage earners, or should I say slave labor.



Say it Loud, you are Sc*m and Proud!!!



Thank God I realize that it is not even worth the time to try to change your opinion.

Ed


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

nick114920 said:


> The union guys make way to much money... the border jumpers work for a 10th and will be taking your jobs before you know it... i say if you cant deport them then hire them... this attitude has made me a ton of $$... although i guess you could just complain you are out of business and show off your code book skills on here all day like CELTIC.. wat ever happen to good old rush limbough... TAKE THE JOB!!!!


Can you hear the crickets chirping?.....you are all alone on this one....


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## funk5stacks (Mar 19, 2007)

nick114920 said:


> The union guys make way to much money... the border jumpers work for a 10th and will be taking your jobs before you know it... i say if you cant deport them then hire them... this attitude has made me a ton of $$... although i guess you could just complain you are out of business and show off your code book skills on here all day like CELTIC.. wat ever happen to good old rush limbough... TAKE THE JOB!!!!


you get what you pay for dickus.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

nick114920 said:


> The union guys make way to much money... the border jumpers work for a 10th and will be taking your jobs before you know it... i say if you cant deport them then hire them... this attitude has made me a ton of $$... although i guess you could just complain you are out of business and show off your code book skills on here all day like CELTIC.. wat ever happen to good old rush limbough... TAKE THE JOB!!!!


I'd like to take this opportunity to offer a sincere thanks to Nick for providing the most honest comments to ever come out of a GCs mouth. IMO GCs don't care about sub skills. They care about how much money you add to their account.

Dave


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Tiger said:


> I'd like to take this opportunity to offer a sincere thanks to Nick for providing the most honest comments to ever come out of a GCs mouth. IMO GCs don't care about sub skills. They care about how much money you add to their account.
> 
> Dave


Ummm, I think you are going almost 
as far over board as the 
afore mentioned number-string-
scum-bag.
I GC, and I find everything he said 
totally repulsive!


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

Tiger said:


> ....IMO GCs don't care about sub skills. They care about how much money you add to their account.
> Dave


Not True Dave. It's about 50/50. There are some real dic*'s out there , and there are also many decent GC's that realize a licensed sub's skills, overhead and worth. Most of the GC's you are speaking about operate in the residential sector.
Most of the appreciative professional GC's seem to be in the industrial and commercial sectors...

Personally, I tip my subs (when they perform and interact professionally and expediently) which is about 50% of the time, on the work they do.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

nick114920 said:


> The union guys make way to much money... the border jumpers work for a 10th and will be taking your jobs before you know it... i say if you cant deport them then hire them... this attitude has made me a ton of $$... although i guess you could just complain you are out of business and show off your code book skills on here all day like CELTIC.. wat ever happen to good old rush limbough... TAKE THE JOB!!!!


I wish you'd post a link to your job so I can find you and kick your @$$. People like you are why this country is folding.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

AtlanticWBConst said:


> Not True Dave. It's about 50/50. There are some real dic*'s out there , and there are also many decent GC's that realize a licensed sub's skills, overhead and worth. Most of the GC's you are speaking about operate in the residential sector.
> Most of the appreciative professional GC's seem to be in the industrial and commercial sectors...
> 
> Personally, I tip my subs (when they perform and interact professionally and expediently) which is about 50% of the time, on the work they do.


Just venting my 20+ year frustration with resi remodeling GCs who use their carpenter or a handyman to do the wiring...with no penalties from the AHJ.

Dave


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

LOL.. whoever try to do that "Stupidity" backward bent... surely will break his neck bone or his back bone very soon man!!.. Unbelievable Stupid Stunts!!! :laughing:


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

repost


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

This thread shows both sides of the contracting world. i am starting to see why alot of he general public views contractors as a bunch of greedy rip off artists. with guys saying they would rather hire some one at $4/hr over some one with some quality skills. its sad that that kind of labor is even out there. I am not a pro-union guy either. i dont mind the unions, but i think they also have a bad public image. Take a look at Detroit. the auto unions wanted more and more. they drove themselves right out of jobs and now with all that unemployment the economy in MI is in the toilet. We have to find that fine line in the middle where we can be considered profecionals and make a decient wage with what customers can actually afford.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

AtlanticWBConst said:


> Not True Dave. It's about 50/50. There are some real dic*'s out there , and there are also many decent GC's that realize a licensed sub's skills, overhead and worth. Most of the GC's you are speaking about operate in the residential sector.
> Most of the appreciative professional GC's seem to be in the industrial and commercial sectors...
> 
> Personally, I tip my subs (when they perform and interact professionally and expediently) which is about 50% of the time, on the work they do.


I agree. we have a handful of subs we use alot because they are good at what they do, and professional about it. we have tried some of the cheaper guys and they suck. it ends up costing more in the end. we dont mind paying a fair price for good skilled guys, and our customers dont either.


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