# Customer cancels job on the day we started, advise



## TZuber (Nov 7, 2013)

i have a problem with long time customer all the sudden, questioning my prices on a tile floor. I have been polite the entire time, reponding respectfully, providing detailed information to calm her. I even advised her to get a second opinion several times and gave her ample opportunity to find another contractor. On the day we started, we found congolium under the laminate floor which would require additional time to take up (hot air gun). I call and express the need for additional time and she told us to stop until she had a chance to think about it. never asking what additional costs would be involved. later that morning she emailed me telling me i lost the job. 

I tried once again to reason with her telling that i moved my schedule around to accomadate her as well as gave her ample opportunity to find another contractor if she was no longer happy with my services. I then went to her house later that evening and told her i would not charge her for the additional work. the next day she fired me from the project.

Can anyone provide feedback on what my rights are? I rearranged my schedule after she requested i start one week later (she was aware i had to do this) I cannot go back to my customer and ask to change my schedule again as i would look incompetent. I am loosing almost $3000 on this project with no way of recouping my cost.


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

What does your contract state with client . And did it get signed before start of project .


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## TZuber (Nov 7, 2013)

Yes, she accepted via email and provided a check materials


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## TZuber (Nov 7, 2013)

*check for materials


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

But his her signature on the contract with start and finish time estimates?


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## TZuber (Nov 7, 2013)

Signature is not on estimate, but she provided a deposit and there approximatly 40 emails (literally) accepting the job and a deposit for materials as well. is that not enough to prove lost wages?

We physcially starting ripping up the floor. I still have one of checks for materials in my pocket.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TZuber said:


> Signature is not on estimate, but she provided a deposit and there approximatly 40 emails (literally) accepting the job and a deposit for materials as well. is that not enough to prove lost wages?
> 
> We physcially starting ripping up the floor. I still have one of checks for materials in my pocket.


The guy who wrote my contracts said the contracts 2 most important things are the signature and the down payment. He said without both of these its useless. 

Of course you still have to have about 200 other things in there but you won't have much luck without a signature on a contract. 

I'm sure guys in the know will soon be in here as I don't know a lot either lol


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Estimate & Contract are not the same thing.


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## fourcornerhome (Feb 19, 2008)

Not sure what you can recoup besides payment for the work and materials already invested in the job.
As far as contract, I think you're Ok because you have an email agreement, down payment, and commencement of work.
http://www.legalzoom.com/business-law/contract-law/oral-contracts-do-they-carry



Add: and hang onto that check until an agreement is reached on a settlement.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

cut your loses, leave it be.
the client might be PMS, or the contractor screwed something up in the relationship.
either way, let it be.

ya can't make everybody happy


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## 98crewcab (Oct 7, 2013)

ouch...these are the lessons I learn from this site, sorry for your loss on this one, but thank you for sharing.....


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## TZuber (Nov 7, 2013)

so, if I can't recoup lost wages, how about the hours and hours of deisgn advice and fuel for finding materials the last 6 months for her...


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

TZuber said:


> so, if I can't recoup lost wages, how about the hours and hours of deisgn advice and fuel for finding materials the last 6 months for her...


Were you under contract to provide design advice & services?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

TZuber said:


> so, if I can't recoup lost wages, how about the hours and hours of deisgn advice and fuel for finding materials the last 6 months for her...


Free estimates are one thing--many of us do that. But if you didn't build compensation for the above into your unsigned contract, if there even is one, that's your oops. :sad:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Most of these verbal contracts end up going no where. At best you may get the money back you spent on materials and running around if your lucky. Its not something your gonna fight for such a small amount if money. Just get what you can and leave it at that.


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## tbz (Dec 27, 2011)

Here in lies the problem, you can document your costs and % of markup and ask for what you feel is reasonable. But if they don,t agree and fight it at what cost do yo
Continue down a rabbit hole.

I had a very successful gentleman yell at me once and informed me that you will never make any money doing work twice. Sounds correct doesn't.

What he was explaining to me was you never write an estimate ever, you always write a contract, anything put down on paper should always say contract of sale or change order and all contracts should have cancelation penalties spelled out and the terms of what a allowed cancellation is and what a breach of contract is.

Never begin any work without a contract signed, even you local car service people have you sign a service contract when you bring it in noting pricing and terms of service.

Depending on the size of the check in your pocket other laws apply also.

In the end though you really need to consult a attorney, who does contractor contract law to know what your rights are and aren't.

Anyone else here is just speculating on what we would do, not what you should do.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

I'd be deciding if you want the money from that check pretty quick before she calls the bank and puts a stop on it.


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## TZuber (Nov 7, 2013)

No Contract for design and advise


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## TZuber (Nov 7, 2013)

Well, the check in my pocket is only $225.... However she did offer me $500 for my compensation. guess I should take it run!!!???


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## TZuber (Nov 7, 2013)

oops, I meant accept the $500


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I would.


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## rustyjames (Aug 28, 2008)

TZuber said:


> Well, the check in my pocket is only $225.... However she did offer me $500 for my compensation. guess I should take it run!!!???


Yes, take the money before she changes her mind, again.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

I would take the $ and turn it over to your attorney. He in turn should be able to hand you your new contract and a bit of advice on how to use it properly.

Then when you see this question again on the forum you will most likely respond to the newly suffered, "What's your contract say?"

It sounds overworked and it might be, but it is the most accurate legal advice anyone could expect outside of their attorney's office.

Good Luck
Dave


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

I was in the same situation once. Client was a butt. Led me on and led me one. Time and material was agreed upon and I had the foundation in on his 2 car garage. Then he says he wants me to give him an "estimate" on what it will take to finish. I do. Very reasonable. Turned out he went and got a quote from an amish crew and they were like 2k less. He wants me to drop my price, blah, blah, blah. I said no, that's my price, have the amish do it and I hope all the money you save makes you happy. I guess he started to realize how much of a butt he was and offered a couple hundred for my time that was wasted. I told him to keep it. That was one occasion that seeing them feel the guilt for being such a crook outweighed a little extra money. At that point in time I was just starting out and bought about 4k worth of tools to complete the job, an aluminum brake and accessories being a big part of it. Couple hundred wasn't much of a consolation.

I know, I know. No contract. School of hard knocks is fun.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

You have a lot to learn,.......

Never question your costs of running a business, if they don't like your prices, politely say goodby to them and move on....



B,JMPOV ,


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

6 months of design?

40 emails back and forth?

For a $3000 job??????????????????????????????????


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Warren said:


> 6 months of design?
> 
> 40 emails back and forth?
> 
> For a $3000 job??????????????????????????????????


This seems odd to me as well. I've estimated and sold larger dollar jobs while sitting on the porch at home, drinking beer and eating bbq. :laughing:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

BC hit the nail on the head... if there is a signature, down-payment and you do everything you said you will do per your agreement there is nothing they can do and no matter what they try to do they will lose. Period.

Been in 3 Breach of contract cases and won all 3... one I settled for $500, second settled for $4,000 and third went to court but settled for $68,000.
Even one case I won against the township, they made me over-built something which I didn't have to do, so after construction was completed I went after them and they paid me 30k as a refund for the extra construction costs I endured.

Go and get what is rightfully yours. Good luck


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TZuber said:


> Well, the check in my pocket is only $225.... However she did offer me $500 for my compensation. guess I should take it run!!!???


Like the wind Forrest.

Here lies the problem, she thinks you tried to fleece her.

Look at it from the outside in, you agreed on a fixed price for the job. You start the demo and all of the sudden you see something that will take more time so you decide to ask for more money. So you call her up and she tells you to stop...I can understand that, maybe she flat out doesn't have the money.

Next thing you do is change your tune and tell her that you won't charge her for the additional work. That right there basically convinced her that you were trying to screw her.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Warren said:


> 6 months of design?
> 
> 40 emails back and forth?
> 
> For a $3000 job??????????????????????????????????


Warren, keep in mind that for some it takes to do things longer then others :laughing:

There was a new home construction going on near buy... they been building this house almost 4 years. I asked a building inspector what was going on there and he said they asked for partial permit release to start the foundation... it took almost a year to get the foundation up... then it took almost 2 years to get the frame up. I don't know what happened after that, but the sheeting started to deteriorate and needed to be replaced and this is where everything stopped. We're talking about 5,000 SF house I haven't been by there in a while but when I be in the area I will take a picture, unless someone else brought the place and finally did something with it. 

So 6 month to come up with a layout it's not so bad :no:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

greg24k said:


> Warren, keep in mind that for some it takes to do things longer then others :laughing:
> 
> There was a new home construction going on near buy... they been building this house almost 4 years. I asked a building inspector what was going on there and he said they asked for partial permit release to start the foundation... it took almost a year to get the foundation up... then it took almost 2 years to get the frame up. I don't know what happened after that, but the sheeting started to deteriorate and needed to be replaced and this is where everything stopped. We're talking about 5,000 SF house I haven't been by there in a while but when I be in the area I will take a picture, unless someone else brought the place and finally did something with it.
> 
> So 6 month to come up with a layout it's not so bad :no:


I've got a client that has been discussing on and off through email and phone call for mounting two TVs. We're talking $200 bucks here guys. :laughing:

Up to 8 months of discussion at this point...


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> I've got a client that has been discussing on and off through email and phone call for mounting two TVs. We're talking $200 bucks here guys. :laughing:
> 
> Up to 8 months of discussion at this point...


I hear you, I had few of them in the past... The only solution I could find is charge for your time to make changes or cut them off and call it a day, because there is no money to make it worth your while on the small jobs and while all this back and forth is going on, you already paying for it out of your profit.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

I am currently standing at 27 emails between a customer and I for a soffit build on a house that does not currently exist beyond framing.

That is correct. 27 emails for a 3k job, to potentially take place in February, on a house that does not have walls yet.

40 emails for a tile job sounds down right reasonable to me.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I have a potential job that is now at 50 weeks. So many emails it has its own mailbox. My gut now tells me it is not going to be done. It's dollar value is in the 450k range, it will suck to loose it but it sucks more to keep investing time with no return on that time. 

Tom


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## zigo22 (Nov 7, 2013)

Take the 500.00 and tell her thank you for understanding with a smile on your face. I know where i live,if you get into a battle with one customer,it will Cost you 10 possible jobs down the road.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

A few years ago I had a customer............

my neighbors company handles all the landscaping maintenance and installation at the customers house and business. My neighbor explains that the customer is a good customer($$$$$$) but he is horribly in-decisive)


first job we do is a 140 square 50 year shingle job on his business. Customer loves the work

a few years later he starts talking about new siding and a new roof for his home. ENDLESS face to face meetings.

For 3 years we hold his hand,pricing,re-pricing etc.
at one point the siding manufacture went out of business and we had to start all over picking siding products.
finally 2 years ago he pulls the trigger on the roof and gets us to verbally commit to a siding project to start about 2 weeks later----------- it's all set up except for picking up the deposit, job is booked etc.

Except that day never comes- he never pulled the trigger. 16 months later someone ELSE does the job- but it's a completely different job.

My neighbor ,the landscaper, tells me that who ever sided the job had to build a HUGE free-standing wall mock -up in the back yard,side it, install replacement windows in the mock-up, install shutters etc. and then the mock-up stood there for 3 months........

I learned my lesson on that customer. This year had a different customer I met with, diagnosed his problem, gave him a price etc. A week later he calls, says he has some other areas he would like me to look at and wants me to drive 75 minutes again and look at the new work and then re-figure the price.

I told him I would be happy to do the original work at the original price and while we were doing the original proposed work I would look at his other issues and give him a price for those additional items------- basically explained that if I came back to his house we were bringing our scaffolding and equipment and starting work on the original proposal. Send us the signed proposal and the deposit and we will roll along.

He was quite taken aback by that- but the next day he called me to inform me the check was on it's way.

stephen


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Easy Gibson said:


> I am currently standing at 27 emails between a customer and I for a soffit build on a house that does not currently exist beyond framing.
> 
> That is correct. 27 emails for a 3k job, to potentially take place in February, on a house that does not have walls yet.
> 
> 40 emails for a tile job sounds down right reasonable to me.


How could you do it in less? I once stood on a bare lot with a couple while they argued about the color of the washcloths in the guest bathroom.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

greg24k said:


> I hear you, I had few of them in the past... The only solution I could find is charge for your time to make changes or cut them off and call it a day, because there is no money to make it worth your while on the small jobs and while all this back and forth is going on, you already paying for it out of your profit.


I've done about 10K worth of work for the guy and it's all hourly. He's happy to pay for any discussion in person and any work performed. So in the name of future business I have no trouble answering a few email and phone calls no matter how ridiculous.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

TZuber said:


> Well, the check in my pocket is only $225.... However she did offer me $500 for my compensation. guess I should take it run!!!???


 you've spent $3000 in job prep but your deposit was only $225? What percentage of the job costs did you charge up front? Not enough obviously, guess you learned something. An attorney might be able to get you more but I would take the $500 and run. Sounds like she realized you screwed up and is being nice.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

CarpenterSFO said:


> How could you do it in less? I once stood on a bare lot with a couple while they argued about the color of the washcloths in the guest bathroom.


That's basically where this was at.

Great guy. Makes incredible amounts of money. Clearly has an iron grip on all happenings around him. 
However, we're standing in an empty floor space. There is nothing. It's a shell and a floor. He's asking me if I can provide him a diagram of how I will fasten the drywall to the framing to build the soffit to cover the window shade to block the light from the window that will let light into the bedroom that doesn't exist yet.
I mean, yeah I guess I can do that... but...


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

KennMacMoragh said:


> you've spent $3000 in job prep but your deposit was only $225? What percentage of the job costs did you charge up front? Not enough obviously, guess you learned something. An attorney might be able to get you more but I would take the $500 and run. Sounds like she realized you screwed up and is being nice.


If you can find an attorney that would get out of bed for less than 3k. :laughing:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> I've done about 10K worth of work for the guy and it's all hourly. He's happy to pay for any discussion in person and any work performed. So in the name of future business I have no trouble answering a few email and phone calls no matter how ridiculous.


I agree about a few emails but I was talking about months of correspondences and 30 emails back and fourth without seeing a light of progress...


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

TZuber said:


> ... On the day we started, we found congolium under the laminate floor which would require additional time to take up (hot air gun)...


You messed up either not finding the congoleum, or expecting that you could add money once you found it. How could you quote that job without checking, or without building the possibility into the quote?

Of course she just thought you were trying to rip her off. Obviously you weren't trying to do that, but how could she see it any other way? I would have fired you, too.

Take the $500. She's being generous.

Edit: Rather than fire you, I probably wouldn't have hired you without a firm price. And "found congoleum" wouldn't have changed that price.

- Bob


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Yep, take the 500 and smile.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Maybe we should have a new directory - "New To Contracting"...?:blink:


We all have all been there........


I would tell anyone "young" starting off to ditch the ego first and foremost. 


I remember when I was just beginning,,,,,,...:laughing:


I was cutting some drywall ........with a circular saw........:laughing:



Guy (contractor) drives by , stops, and says "what the hell are you guys doing" - use a utility knife........., got out of his truck- , grabbed his blade,....showed us how it's done,.laughed and said - "we have all been at the beginning."..........."just try not to stay there"

I was so embarased....humiliated....


Such is life.....:laughing:




B,


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

^^WOW you really were green huh^^


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

This will be the only time I admit that the very first time, as a DIYer, I cut my drywall with a circular saw. When my buddy corrected me I did feel extremely stupid.

Good Luck
Dave


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

:laughing:.....we don't come out of womb all tuned up and ready to grab some construction material and knowing what to do with it...........:laughing:...

Ego......and assumptions......that's a big no,no......


What's that saying ..been there ,done that...


We're all human......god knows the silly things I did.....:whistling...:laughing:




B,


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

PrestigeR&D said:


> :laughing:.....we don't come out of womb all tuned up and ready to grab some construction material and knowing what to do with it...........:laughing:...
> 
> Ego......and assumptions......that's a big no,no......
> 
> ...


No I agree, lots and lots that i don't know. But how to cut drywall? I'm sure I knew that before I started school. But I'll admit to being in my 20's and seeing someone cut a box of soffit with a skillsaw and being really impressed


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Well than I guess your a lot smarter than I am ....:thumbsup:


Do you feel better now .......:blink:





B,


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Whoa...sorry bud. Not trying to put you down or bring myself up. Just shocked that someone wouldn't know how to cut drywall. Especially if they were going to work with it


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

I guess I just picked up a hammer and everything didn't come to me once that moment happened.....:blink:....:laughing:


It's all good...:thumbsup:,...I'm not into pissing wars....I did some stupid things in my life-Period!.....


No offense taken .,,:thumbsup:


I'm not the brightest bulb in the bunch.........:laughing: some things yes,...some things.....:blink:...:laughing:



Life's to short to get pissed about our shortcomings....just try not to repeat them....:laughing:



B,


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Amen, believe me I've done lots of stuff that took me a lot of time and effort and then to watch someone else do it properly in about 30 seconds (re-installing a window crank in my truck comes to mind)


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

griz said:


> Estimate & Contract are not the same thing.


I am always amazed at how many of our subcontractors don't understand that.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

I laugh when I think of some of the things I did when starting out, and I still admire the patience and generosity of the people who showed me how to do it right. That goes for any of my endeavors, not just construction. I did some goofy framing (and I probably will again), and there's still some really peculiar finish work that I can't avoid seeing every once in a while.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I just saw someone elses paperwork that said estimate/contract. Estimate until it's signed i guess


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

mudpad said:


> I am always amazed at how many of our subcontractors don't understand that.


In both directions.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

dom-mas said:


> I just saw someone elses paperwork that said estimate/contract. Estimate until it's signed i guess


I usually submit a proposal that has a clause indicating it becomes a contract once signed. Never had a problem with that.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> I was cutting some drywall ........with a circular saw....
> 
> 
> B,


I did that last summer, I needed 48 12"x12'x1/2" drywall strips, stacked 12 sheets, placed the track saw rail, set the saw to full depth, cut through 4 sheets at a time, the blade marked the 5th. With the saw hooked to the CT no dust.

You were ahead of time, that's all.

Tom


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

:laughing::laughing::laughing:


Welcome to the club.....:laughing:




B,...:thumbup:,...:laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Inner has an excellent point..... The very first rule of negotiating (which is what you're involved in... contract/no contract)) is understand the other parties position.... that is, their real position... not necessarily, and often not, their stated opinion. Too many people enter a negotiation focused solely on their position, or their wants/needs.... you need to know those.... but the very first position you need to understand is the other parties. It sounds likely that Inner's explanation may be correct.... Best



I agree,

Contracting isn't only knowing the law and the business. It's mostly people skills.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Take the money and then when she comes to her senses, you'll be able to get your asking price.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

We don't write estimates for clients, we offer proposals. The proposal outlines the job, who's going to do what and how much it will cost. I'll put as much detail in them as I think the job requires, maybe a little too much. 

A signature is required for acceptance and then it attaches to and becomes specifications for the contract. The contract mainly satisfies the state legal requirements and protects me from things that have bit me before. There are a couple of lines that were suggested by previous clients also.

Good Luck
Dave


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Inner10 said:


> Commercial jobs in ON typically use standard CCDC contracts.
> 
> http://www.ccdc.org/downloads/
> 
> I just sign on the dotted line and get to work...I don't think they change that much. :whistling


That looks like the Canadian version of AIA. http://www.aia.org/contractdocs/
The "boiler plate" stays the same, but on any large contract where the work scope is ambiguous, we always attach a "scope of work" sheet that specifically lists the work to be performed. ALWAYS for site excavation and underground utilities, all structural work, and all Mechanical, Plumbing, Electrical.

One of the biggies that I know you have encountered is electrical, always a pissing match over some low voltage issue, who does what etc.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

mudpad said:


> That looks like the Canadian version of AIA. http://www.aia.org/contractdocs/
> The "boiler plate" stays the same, but on any large contract where the work scope is ambiguous, we always attach a "scope of work" sheet that specifically lists the work to be performed. ALWAYS for site excavation and underground utilities, all structural work, and all Mechanical, Plumbing, Electrical.
> 
> One of the biggies that I know you have encountered is electrical, always a pissing match over some low voltage issue, who does what etc.


I have never understood anyone's willingness, customer or contractor, to sign a contract with very much ambiguity in the scope. It shocks me that people will sign a contract that says, "Kitchen, shaker, white - $50,000". I'm hard put to name things that the customer can see that I don't specified by brand and model. Bathtub drain assemblies, dimmers (I price for Maestro so I'm generally OK); hinges (though I usually specify in the brass, stainless, etc.). The occasional customer thinks the detail is funny, but they get it once they start making changes.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

That's probably because you do mostly finish work. No GC has ever cared where my blocks come from, so long as they are 190mmx 390mm with #15 (here #15 means 15mm/5/8") rebar every 400mm (since we're talking commercial)


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

dom-mas said:


> That's probably because you do mostly finish work. No GC has ever cared where my blocks come from, so long as they are 190mmx 390mm with #15 (here #15 means 15mm/5/8") rebar every 400mm (since we're talking commercial)


I agree.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

dom-mas said:


> That's probably because you do mostly finish work. No GC has ever cared where my blocks come from, so long as they are 190mmx 390mm with #15 (here #15 means 15mm/5/8") rebar every 400mm (since we're talking commercial)


We don't care where it came from, but it has to meet specs, and you have to submit all the testing information to prove it for approval by the structural engineer. Then it's tested by a third party as it's being layed (laid?), along with the mortar, rebar and concrete fill. 

All block is not created equal!


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