# Are you willing to learn more?



## JoeTedesco (Sep 3, 2006)

If so, comments like this on a public board seem to be common: 

*"This has been accepted for years in spite of the fact that it was never really legal."*

I will admit that I am not and never will be perfect, and have allowed unconventional installations only because of the previous training I received or because I didn't know better.

With the electronic versions of the NEC and UL publications I seem to be getting into trouble when all I do is quote a simple code rule:

Here's one rule that was added to the NEC long ago 93? because an Electrical inspector from Portland, Oregon was getting some flack from the field where they said: "show me where it says I can't do that!"

*300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings —Where Required .............. Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.*

I see this as being a very simple rule that points out that installations such as those that follow here are not allowed. 

Do you agree? 
What is a locknut used for? 
What is a RMC threaded coupling used for? 
What is an EMT connector used for?

Photos: Courtesy Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

The pictures are obvious vagrant code violations and poor workmanship. What is the point that you are trying to convey?


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## JoeTedesco (Sep 3, 2006)

*Work like this is done by criminals!*

:bangin: Work like this is done by people who I call criminals and they should be locked up, that's the point. 

I am looking for answers on the questions about the proper use of fittings please. 

Also to generate discussion on the lousy and undesirable shoddy work found everywhere around the USA!


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

JoeTedesco said:


> :bangin: Work like this is done by people who I call criminals and they should be locked up, that's the point.


Very true, but so should the inspectors who let it go. Sadly, we things like this often in this region.



JoeTedesco said:


> Also to generate discussion on the lousy and undesirable shoddy work found everywhere around the USA!


I'm not sure if it's like this all over or just in our small neck of the woods, but having more inspectors and a more intensive process would decrease the shoddy work. Here we have one inspector who has a very large territory cover and he is in constant motion. He's good at his job but I'm sure there are far too many times he's stretched too thin also. Luckily, we live in an area with a reputable inspector but I'm sure there are some inspectors who will trade morals for cash. 

We just finished a commercial project in which their previous contractor never purchased any permits and no inspection was done. The work was not up to code by any means but went undetected for 2 yrs until we called for inspection on our work and the inspector recognized the older changes. We took care of the code violations at no extra charge to the client so that all would be legal and inspected but it shouldn't have to go two years and fall back on the next person stepping in. :sad: 

If there was improvements made on the enforcement of permit requirements, I think alot of the shoddy work would be eliminated. It's done now because the "criminals" know they can get by with it and skirt around permits or inspectors.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

realpurty2 said:


> Very true, but so should the inspectors who let it go. Sadly, we things like this often in this region.


There is lots of work done every day that an inspector never sees such as maintenace and service work, perhaps even more of this than new construction type work.

Fact is the burden should not fall on the inspector, who has but an hour to look at everything your entire crew has been doing for 6 months. The burden falls on the guys doing the work


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

JoeTedesco said:


> What is a locknut used for?
> What is a RMC threaded coupling used for?
> What is an EMT connector used for?


One answer for all three;

electrical continuity


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

Sparky Joe said:


> There is lots of work done every day that an inspector never sees such as maintenace and service work, perhaps even more of this than new construction type work.
> 
> Fact is the burden should not fall on the inspector, who has but an hour to look at everything your entire crew has been doing for 6 months. The burden falls on the guys doing the work


Your very right Sparky.. but take into consideration that my opinion was based only on what I hear from the guys coming in and hubby who is a CE. I'm just the office grunt. I, incorrectly obviously, assumed that the role of the inspector was to prevent shoddy work from being passed and allowed to remain. I wholeheartedly agree that it's the electrician's responsibilty to do it right, but those without personal ethics won't care unless it means not getting paid for the job that isn't up to par.

I'll keep my nose in the office section next time, I promise. :laughing:


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

A lock nut is used to keep the integrity of a connection under motion such as vibration. Lock washers and LocTite perform the same function. A 'locknut' can also be the outside nut of two nuts locked together to prevent movement, not used much anymore. Locknuts come in a variety of forms.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Teetorbilt said:


> A lock nut is used to keep the integrity of a connection under motion such as vibration. Lock washers and LocTite perform the same function. A 'locknut' can also be the outside nut of two nuts locked together to prevent movement, not used much anymore. Locknuts come in a variety of forms.


Locknuts in electrical are rated to keep solid electrical contact between a conduit and a can, because if you can believe it or not a ground wire is still not required in a conduit, just using the materials right is enough to supplement a ground wire. 
Ridiculous to me, I mean who hasn't missed a set screw in their entire career.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I was just injecting mechanical correctness. I still run EMT whenever possible, just the way that I was taught. I also pull Romex through it. I like the concept.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Teetorbilt said:


> I was just injecting mechanical correctness. I still run EMT whenever possible, just the way that I was taught. I also pull Romex through it. I like the concept.


I understood what you were saying and though I haen't used loctite, I am familiar with it, but am not comfortable using glue in place of a mechanical means


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

The problem is that The National Electric Code has a big bark and not any kind of a bite. The NEC is a national code but locally it is not enforced 100% due to money and politics. I am working on a house right now and I could do a real good hack job on it and make a lot of money. The problem is that that if I did this no body would say a thing and with no bribes, no back room deals, just do the hack job and get paid and walk away. I DO NOT DO this kind of work because I take extreme pride in the craftsmanship of the work I do.
It pisses me off big time to see some of the work that has been done out there and it seems to me that the driving force is money. There are people out there who are out there doing electrical work for the money and cut corners wherever they can so that they can make more. 
The problem is the lack of accountability. When was the last time any of you were asked by someone to see your license? In over 30 years of being an electrician I have been asked maybe 2-3 times. Nobody seams to care if I am licensed or not I guess.


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

JoeTedesco said:


> What is a locknut used for?
> What is a RMC threaded coupling used for?
> What is an EMT connector used for?


A locknut is used to mechanically and electrically fasten threaded RMC, Threaded IMC, EMT connectors, ENT connectors, etc, to listed electrical boxes, enclosures, fixtures, etc,

A RMC threaded coupling is used to mechanically and electrically connect 2 pieces of RMC together.

An EMT connector is used connect EMT conduit mechanically and electrically to a listed electrical box, enclosure, fixture, etc.


Carry On!


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## JoeTedesco (Sep 3, 2006)

CE1 said:


> A locknut is used to mechanically and electrically fasten threaded RMC, Threaded IMC, EMT connectors, ENT connectors, etc, to listed electrical boxes, enclosures, fixtures, etc,
> 
> A RMC threaded coupling is used to mechanically and electrically connect 2 pieces of RMC together.
> 
> ...


Exactly! Thank you!

This was the answer I was looking for and appreciate the comments. 

We have too many wannabees out there and on another note I will not post any more pictures in the future because there are some who are not aware of the purpose of the effort. 

Look for my articles at: www.ecmweb.com

I will be watching when non-electricians make comments that are meaningless, insulting, and without any credibility whatsoever! :furious: 

I thought this place did not allow DIY's?


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

> comments that are meaningless, insulting, and without any credibility whatsoever!


Thanks for the effort Joe. There are plenty of guys around here that stay tuned in and want to learn but stay on the sidelines and don't say much.
I don't know if it is my place but I'll apologize for any insulting remarks. I enjoyed your posts and will try fo follow more wherever they might be.


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## JoeTedesco (Sep 3, 2006)

K2eoj said:


> Thanks for the effort Joe. There are plenty of guys around here that stay tuned in and want to learn but stay on the sidelines and don't say much.
> I don't know if it is my place but I'll apologize for any insulting remarks. I enjoyed your posts and will try fo follow more wherever they might be.


Thanks  

OK, I will give it another try, here's a panelboard showing the installation of GFCI's and AFCI's of different manufacturers.

Questions: Is this acceptable? If not why and how does the NEC cover this issue?

http://www.nachi.org/images/nastypanel22.jpg


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

Joe i have heard people argue for and against using a rmc coupling to for example if you put a rmc coupling on to a emt connector and say use a screw in flex connector for a transition from emt to flex. I think this is undesirable but not wrong. what do you say.


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## JoeTedesco (Sep 3, 2006)

*Wrong!*



Bkessler said:


> Joe i have heard people argue for and against using a rmc coupling to for example if you put a rmc coupling on to a emt connector and say use a screw in flex connector for a transition from emt to flex. I think this is undesirable but not wrong. what do you say.


The installation you describe is not the intended application or listing of products by Underwriters Laboratories (UL).

*First*, a connector cannot be used as a coupling unless so listed.

*Second*, connectors have not been UL tested for resistance or ability to carry potential ground fault current when assembled to a coupling.

*Third*, the threads of the connectors may not match those of the coupling raising the risk of connector pulling out of the coupling.

A better choice for this installation would be to use couplings designed and listed for the application. Fitting manufacturers such as O/Z-Gedney offer such a coupling for trade sizes 1/2" EMT - 3/8" FMC up to 2" EMT - 2" FMC; Bridgeport Fittings has sizes 1/2" EMT - 3/8" FMC up to 1"EMT - 1
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Think you know how this installation violates the NEC?
Hint: If it works, it’s not a problem, right?
http://ecmweb.com/nec/whats_wrong_122606/

I am sure many workers have installed this equipment in the same manner and said, "As long as it was approved by the electrical inspector, it is okay!" I say that's a lot of guff. 

*A seasoned, licensed, and properly trained person should agree with me on this.*

As per 300.15, “Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.” In addition, the requirements of 110.2 state “The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved. FPN: See 90.7, Examination of Equipment for Safety, and 110.3, Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment. See definitions of Approved, Identified, Labeled, and Listed.” And let’s not forget about the requirements of 110.3(B), which state “Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.” 

*Just because you may have made up an installation like this in the past — and it was accepted — doesn’t mean it was ever legal.*

© 2006 Prism Business Media Inc. :clap:


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

We've always used rigid couplings to connect emt to sealtight, and will probably continue to.

Though we also always pull a ground wire....


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## JoeTedesco (Sep 3, 2006)

*As long as it was approved*



Bkessler said:


> Joe i have heard people argue for and against using a rmc coupling to for example if you put a rmc coupling on to a emt connector and say use a screw in flex connector for a transition from emt to flex. I think this is undesirable but not wrong. what do you say.


I am sure many workers have installed this equipment in the same manner and said, "As long as it was approved by the electrical inspector, it is okay!" I say that's a lot of guff. A seasoned, licensed, and properly trained person should agree with me on this.

As per 300.15, “Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.” In addition, the requirements of 110.2 state “The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved. FPN: See 90.7, Examination of Equipment for Safety, and 110.3, Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment. See definitions of Approved, Identified, Labeled, and Listed.” And let’s not forget about the requirements of 110.3(B), which state “Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.” 

_Just because you may have made up an installation like this in the past — and it was accepted — doesn’t mean it was ever legal._
:thumbup:


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

Sparky Joe said:


> We've always used rigid couplings to connect emt to sealtight, and will probably continue to.
> 
> Though we also always pull a ground wire....


Why would You? A ground makes it right, Ehh?
*Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right! *


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## pitterpat (Sep 25, 2005)

To your 2nd pic of the panelboard, aren't the breakers supposed to be all from the same manf? Or doesn't the panelboard manf specify which breakers are correct for their panelboard? Just a stab @ the correct answer, don't go jumping on me if I'm wrong. I'm just trying to learn and I usually use an trusted lic elec. to do the elec. work on my jobs. Those that I do, do myself I consult w/him first.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

CE1 said:


> Why would You? A ground makes it right, Ehh?
> *Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right! *


I believe the whole idea for using parts the way they are intended is to ensure good electrical continuity to be able to clear a fault. And to keep it mechanically solid.

When I make my fittings wrench tight I know they are mechanically solid, and pulling a ground wire(and bonding it everywhere) takes care of the other part.


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## JoeTedesco (Sep 3, 2006)

pitterpat said:


> To your 2nd pic of the panelboard, aren't the breakers supposed to be all from the same manf? Or doesn't the panelboard manf specify which breakers are correct for their panelboard? Just a stab @ the correct answer, don't go jumping on me if I'm wrong. I'm just trying to learn and I usually use an trusted lic elec. to do the elec. work on my jobs. Those that I do, do myself I consult w/him first.


That was my point, the different breakers!

Most panelboards supply restrictive notices indicating that they are not responsible for equipment other than theirs! :thumbup:


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