# Electricians vs Drywallers!



## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

I thought I heard somewhere that these things would be required under 2008 NEC. Anyone know anything about that?


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

That would not suprise me. The only way to get a code change anymore seems to be to have a new product and maybe some cash to pass around to the right fellows. :sad:


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## GreenGuy (Apr 2, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> I don't understand. There's a contradiction in there someplace. If they've saved you from doing wire repairs, they havn't saved you any money. They've actually cost you money. Wire repairs are not done free of charge. They are marked up and billed like any ordinary electrical work. They've cheated you out of an opportunity to make money.


 I understand that change orders and extra's are a part of the business, but I am not perfect and niether is any human on this earth. I try to give the gc or the owner the best possible job without trying to get back in thier pocket for more. I also know that a cut wire that I might miss could cause a fire and cost someone thier home or even the life of a loved one. No amount of money is worth that! I don,t have to worry about finding work becouse my reputation of quality stands for itself. Well I must get back to work, not much time to sit at a computer and look for something or someone to attack next. Looks like with the amount of replies you have posted in two years you have lots of time to do just that. Keep up the good work.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

GreenGuy said:


> I understand that change orders and extra's are a part of the business, but I am not perfect and niether is any human on this earth. I try to give the gc or the owner the best possible job without trying to get back in thier pocket for more. I also know that a cut wire that I might miss could cause a fire and cost someone thier home or even the life of a loved one. No amount of money is worth that! I don,t have to worry about finding work becouse my reputation of quality stands for itself. Well I must get back to work, not much time to sit at a computer and look for something or someone to attack next. Looks like with the amount of replies you have posted in two years you have lots of time to do just that. Keep up the good work.


Hi Green Guy. If you're done being dramatic, I'd just like to say, "Good for you. Glad it's working out for you".


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## Lighthouse (Apr 4, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> I thought I heard somewhere that these things would be required under 2008 NEC. Anyone know anything about that?


 I am Lighthouse. I am new to this site, it seems like it could be helpful. I was at the Electric West Trade Show this year and heard that it was in the process of becoming a code. I have been using wireguards for two years. They work great for me. I do agree that it does save time which is money when I use them. I just finished roughing in a 6700 sq ft house today and it took me about thirty minutes to install the wireguards. I know I spent more time than that cleaning out boxes and inspecting my wires to make sure they haven,t been cut or knicked. Well worth the buck. If it goes code, no sweat off my back, I will use them anyway.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Wow... I'm impressed. Manufacturer's trawling our lowly talking spot to spam us about their product. Lighthouse.... who do you work for? :whistling


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

How does using Wireguards prevent fires?

Why would installing them be required by code to prevent a fire?

Doesn't that undermine what the NEC is all about in the first place?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

All Wiregaurds do is line the pockets of the Wiregaurd company. If a guy fears he's missing wires that might have gotten nicked, he should hang it up.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

The product seems pretty good. I actually got my free samples in the mail today. One 2G for the residential end, and the other for commercial. I'm not knocking the product or whose pockets get lined, I just don't see the need for them to be part of the code.


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## Lighthouse (Apr 4, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> Wow... I'm impressed. Manufacturer's trawling our lowly talking spot to spam us about their product. Lighthouse.... who do you work for? :whistling


 I work for myself now. But I have worked for a lot of people since I started in 1976 at IBEW local 226 in Topeka KS. I started Freedom Electric in 1992. I have recently moved to Arkansas, out in the country to slow down the pace a bit. I am about to take the AR masters and contractors tests, and start Lighthouse Electric here. I scaled down from 9 guys and 6 trucks to myself and one guy. I found 32 acres on a mountain top and plan to spend much of my time around here.


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## Project53 (Oct 4, 2006)

Bottom line here is..if you end up with alot of cut cables....you need to talk to the GC. Once he gets your bill for new cable pulls...well he may get the message anyway. If you want to spend the time and money for those cover plates..be my guest. They will probably end up gone anyway if they(sheet rockers) start breaking zip bits on them.


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## sparkysteve (Jan 27, 2006)

They seem like a fairly good idea. I don't think they should be a code requirement. The only boxes we usually have wires getting nicked in is 2 and 3 gangs. The wire dosen't like to stay tucked. Just yesterday I had to replace a 3-gang box full of 3 3-ways because the wires got chopped. We have a worse problem with boxes full of mud. Like when they don't seem to even be cut out, but they are mudded full, sanded, and painted. And I love that big Square D drywall knife cleaner/urinal/cupholder we installed too. They hate it that we use the standard Leviton plates that won't cover even the smallest router slip.


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

sparkysteve said:


> They hate it that we use the standard Leviton plates that won't cover even the smallest router slip.


I ran several jobs as a foreman/leadman before I started to stand my ground on this. The generals and drywallers keept making me believe that it was my job to be sure that the box covers, cover the hole.

I do not cave in any more. I tell my guys to do thier best to cover the hole, but make sure the device is level. Then I stand my ground with the gc and the drywaller. I didn't cut he hole. The drywaller had to know what was going to go in the hole. He can fix the problem, and pay if the wall needs re-painted.

As for extra mud in the box, I bust it out with what ever tool I have in my hand. If too much busts out, so be it. I didn't fill the box with mud either.

If the wires get nicked, they pay for the fix.

Since I deal with mostly the same group of GCs and subs, I find that it does not take long for the drywaller to suddenly get better at hanging walls and mudding, after I stand my ground just once.

Maybe they were that good to start with, but just never had the incentive to be more carefull.


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## petermichael (Apr 13, 2007)

*Troublemaker*

I saw the website and immediately laughed at the product, because of all the nonsense and bickering / back charging I have seen. There is definately a demand for this product. 

MDshunk you come off like a jobsite troublemaker. Anyone who would not want to take a small amount of time/money to protect their wires, well at the same time professing that cut / nicked wires are a good thing because they're a change order and more money for you. Replacing a rough run in the wall after the rock is hung and spackled and painted, is never a good thing for the project. You strike me as a stubborn old timer. A good GC will pick up on someone who protects their work, bills less in additional expense, and is more beneficial to the project.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

petermichael said:


> I saw the website and immediately laughed at the product, because of all the nonsense and bickering / back charging I have seen. There is definately a demand for this product.
> 
> MDshunk you come off like a jobsite troublemaker. Anyone who would not want to take a small amount of time/money to protect their wires, well at the same time professing that cut / nicked wires are a good thing because they're a change order and more money for you. Replacing a rough run in the wall after the rock is hung and spackled and painted, is never a good thing for the project. You strike me as a stubborn old timer. A good GC will pick up on someone who protects their work, bills less in additional expense, and is more beneficial to the project.


So Petermichael, as a general you are quite generous with the electricians time and money, I wonder how easy going you are about sub trades dragging mud into a jobsite you just paid to have carpeted, or maybe we can start to overdrill out thru the siding instead of careful professional use of our auger bits. After all, you are a believer in protecting your own work right?


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## Forry (Feb 12, 2007)

Huh... I agree with all y'all. It's good to try and be thoughtful about the work you're doing and think ahead of the other trades after you.. I mean yeah, sometimes people don't give a crap, and ruin you're work.. sucks huh? And yeah, maybe you can spend a few minutes making it so no one CAN screw up what you've done... GOOD IDEA! Not exactly in the contract, but come on.... it's better for you in the long run. Who would I rather hire... an electrician who doesn't mind billing me for the rockers nicks, and kindof likes the extra work/$, or an electrician who maybe charges a little more for some extra prep, but helps the job go well and doesn't blame the whole world for screwing him over... hmmm MD, I usually like what you have to say, but come on... I'd be happy to pay a little now than alot later... Maybe ask the GC how he feels about it... Smooth sailin' is always my choice.

At the same time, when I mud, I DON'T nick wires, and I not only scrape the boxes, I like to vacuume 'em out... Makes for a better paint job.. But that's just me....


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## petermichael (Apr 13, 2007)

*Not the point I was making*



macmikeman said:


> So Petermichael, as a general you are quite generous with the electricians time and money, I wonder how easy going you are about sub trades dragging mud into a jobsite you just paid to have carpeted, or maybe we can start to overdrill out thru the siding instead of careful professional use of our auger bits. After all, you are a believer in protecting your own work right?


I was commenting about the attitude of the electrician who was coming off pro - change order & describing a ugly scenario. I absolutely was not saying that the spackler gets away with anything, or that it's ok to "be generous with the electricians money" But the point some of you old timers are not getting is that this little 1$ or so box cover potentially can save you money.

Good post Forry


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

Peter, I have been on many jobs where all the back charge and other discussion was minimized by a good GC taking the lead and insuring that each trade looks out for the other.

We have been using old tech like respect, and have not needed high tech like new parts and supplies.

Does the tile layer need to put in a "protect the floor plate".
Does the painter need to cover every painted wall so that noone gets finger prints on it.
Does the framer need metal plates to insure that noone drills out too much wood and weaken the building.

Likewise the electrician would not need some special plate inside the box, If the next trade respected his work enough to not tear it up. And when and if it gets torn up. Backcharge is the only way to: first recoupe damages, and second teach them to not do it again.


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## Drywall1 (Dec 12, 2005)

Holy chit! You guys f-ing hate drywall guys! Here is how it goes in Nebraska....I nick a wire or cover a box on a job. Spark calls me and razzes my ass. Then next house spark forgets a can light until punch. So he calls again and we meet out there so I can help him cut it in. So I wont have any patch work. If you try to talk to another trade and they are azzes then by all means stick it up their butts. 

I was just reading here today because I got a call by a sparky for a new builder I have (have not even met the guy) and he tore me a new one. Nicked a wire. I am beside myself. 

I guess I'm from the old school where all the subs should be on a first name basis. Sh!t happens some times. I have personally done so much free patch work for other trades it boggles my mind. I should shut up now dont want any more sparkeys mad at me.

Nate


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

You're right! 

**** HAPPENS!

That's why the electrician needs to cover his own A and shove those wires deep inside the box to where they can't possibly be nicked.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

There are ways to tuck in your wires so they won't knicked, and if you tuck them in the right way you won't lose more than inch or two if they are hit.

You can buy expensive products to gaurd against stupidity, but the best solution is to teach your guys well(hopefully they have half a brain) and then have them finish the boxes they roughed. If they think 'cut wires' is just part of the job then you need some different guys(ones that care about their work)

I've never seen a sheetrocker using a rotozip that still had the gaurd in place, and have only had problems when the wires were tucked in improperly.


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## kriscad (Apr 21, 2007)

daveselectric said:


> All of the sheet rock crews in California are illegals to begin with and could care less about the ****** electrician. If you're having your wires cut by their router, leave the boxes hot. They get the hint real quick.




:clap::clap:


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Sparky Joe said:


> There are ways to tuck in your wires so they won't knicked, and if you tuck them in the right way you won't lose more than inch or two if they are hit.
> 
> You can buy expensive products to gaurd against stupidity, but the best solution is to teach your guys well(hopefully they have half a brain) and then have them finish the boxes they roughed. If they think 'cut wires' is just part of the job then you need some different guys(ones that care about their work)
> 
> I've never seen a sheetrocker using a rotozip that still had the gaurd in place, and have only had problems when the wires were tucked in improperly.


I hear that!

Especially "the ones that care about their work" part.


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