# General Contractor vs. Customer Pricing



## Billys1980 (Jan 16, 2009)

As an electrical contractor, do you charge the general contractor the same price for new home and service work that you would charge a person off the street(homeowner). My contractor wants to know what I would normally charge for a job to Harry homeowner vs. his price? How would you answer this question?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

This will be interesting. I've seen this before on here, it usually get's pretty heated.

Let me turn the question around on you, is there a reason you wouldn't charge differently for a GC vs a homeowner, or a reason why you would? 

What's your take on it?


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

Honestly - each job is different & I charge accordingly to the needs of said job

If a GC is going to give you a steady supply of work, you might knock down your charges some like a volume discount (while still making a profit, paying OH, etc...) or better yet increase your rates for HO's 

Now, may I suggest you post an Intro http://www.contractortalk.com/f44/ & place your location in your profile?


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## 31b (Jan 14, 2008)

I can see maybe giving a GC that you work with often a better deal, as he is a repeat customer and you'd like to keep it that way. Discount for volume and all, ya know. 

Works both ways too, you have "your guy" for this or that, and hopefully you are "their guy" to some of them too.


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## Bob Mariani (Nov 28, 2008)

Charge the same, since you are only charging just enough to squeak by anyway. but leave your iphone in your pocket and the BMW in the garage when you tell him this.


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## 31b (Jan 14, 2008)

heh, beat me too it SLS


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I suspect you opened a can of worms with this as everyone runs/operates their business differently but i will offer my opinion of what i would do. I would charge the same unless it is a contractor who gets me work. You dont bite the hand that feeds you as it is said or one hand washes the other. But this is a two way street and i would expect the same from that contractor if i was asking for a quote/bid.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I'm not in business for myself (yet), but I think I would charge a GC a little less based simply on the amount of work we could do together over the course of a year, 2 years, decade, etc. 

Please tell me I am wrong (Celtic, Mahlere), because no matter who I work for my overhead never changes.


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

I asked my plumber this question years ago (I was Green) and never asked him or another vendor again.
My thought now is they have the same expences on my job as any other so I just let him quote the job and I mark up that number. Not to mention he has gotten me some nice jobs in the past so it evens out. Now, some of my subs will give me a better price but I tend to leave that up to them.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Bob Mariani said:


> Charge the same, since you are only charging just enough to squeak by anyway. but leave your iphone in your pocket and the BMW in the garage when you tell him this.


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

It's hard to believe that there is no change to overhead when it comes to a retail customer and a wholesale one.

How much is it costing your company as a sub to land each job the GC gives you? In other words when you work for a retail customer there is usually a cost associated with landing that job. If your retail customer found you through advertising there is that cost. There is the time involved in going to the job once or twice or three times during the sales cycle before you might sign the job. There is the time involved in handholding with a retail customer... how much does it cost you to come in on a job that the homeowner is running compared to when a GC is running it...etc... etc... etc... 

How much does that customer cost you when it's a GC you've been working with and he calls you up and 2 hours or, 20 minutes later the job is yours?


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

You make a fair point Mike. Although some GC's are worse than some HO's when it comes to moving this and that. I remember working for one guy where it seemed as if we did the same job three times. When something like this happens how does your EC charge you, by the hour, by the job?


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> It's hard to believe that there is no change to overhead when it comes to a retail customer and a wholesale one.
> 
> How much is it costing your company as a sub to land each job the GC gives you? In other words when you work for a retail customer there is usually a cost associated with landing that job. If your retail customer found you through advertising there is that cost. There is the time involved in going to the job once or twice or three times during the sales cycle before you might sign the job. There is the time involved in handholding with a retail customer... how much does it cost you to come in on a job that the homeowner is running compared to when a GC is running it...etc... etc... etc...
> 
> How much does that customer cost you when it's a GC you've been working with and he calls you up and 2 hours or, 20 minutes later the job is yours?


That may be the case with some subs. However, My electrician and plumber will make at least one site visit before bidding on the job. Not to mention the time it takes to make appointments with the building department and meet with inspectors.
And, may I add the reason they are my subs is because they have proven to be reliable and an asset to my company. For those reasons alone I feel they are worth what they charge. And the more they charge the more my mark up is.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Magnettica said:


> You make a fair point Mike. Although some GC's are worse than some HO's when it comes to moving this and that.?


Right-o. I'm only talking about the norms. I think there are sh*tty ass GCs no doubt, just horrible ones that you shake your head at, but I think on average between a GC and a homeowner the GC is going to be easier to work your trade on the job then the homeowner. But that's also just part of it, there still is no customer acquistion costs and hand holding with a whole sale customer vs a retail one.



Magnettica said:


> I remember working for one guy where it seemed as if we did the same job three times. When something like this happens how does your EC charge you, by the hour, by the job?


I work differently with different trades and different business owners in those trades. With some it's a fixed price and with some it's hourly. It's by far the majority are fixed price. With electricians it always seems to be hourly for some reason.

Even fixed price, I try to be as fair as possible. I've never asked any sub to eat anything for me in regard to any on forseen issues or something I might have missed. That to me is college tuition that I must pay to be better at what I do, and no need to get into a subs pocket. If there is an issue 99% of the time we have it covered in the contract in regard to being hidden or unforseen and it's a change order for the customer and for me for the sub to add to his bill.

Just did this today, customer changed mind on already installed shelves in the shower. Told the tile setter the situation and let me know how much it will be to do the change, add it to your bill, told the customer X amount for the change here is the change order to sign.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Billys1980 said:


> As an electrical contractor, do you charge the general contractor the same price for new home and service work that you would charge a person off the street(homeowner). My contractor wants to know what I would normally charge for a job to Harry homeowner vs. his price? How would you answer this question?


I am a General Contractor, I would expect an electrician or any other subcontractor working for me to give me a break on price for a couple of reasons.

1) I will hire you for future jobs if I am taken care of.

The home owner will hire you just once, how many houses or room additions are they going to do?

2) I know what I want and how it shold be done and will stay out of your way.

The home owner has no clue what is going on, will get in your way, get upset when they change things and get mad when you give them a change order.

3) I know what a job should cost, so if you are out of line I will not hire you.

The homeowner has no clue what it should cost, with some of them even if you gave the job away they will complain.

4) I make sure my subs get paid.

The home owner may not pay you.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

bwalley said:


> 4) I make sure my subs get paid.
> 
> The home owner may not pay you.


LOL, now that's one where you't going to get some flack from professional subs! :laughing:

That might be true for you and me in regard to paying right, but without a doubt subs are going to run into more payment problems working for GCs then homeowners in the long run.


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## Bill Z (Dec 10, 2006)

You may not think about pricing the same way I do, but if you are going out and estimating jobs you are "selling". If you put your name on your van, wear company shirts, or buy an ad in a newspaper or on a place mat, you are "marketing". If you recognize these items as part of your pricing, you can decide if you want to keep selling and marketing yourself or give up a little because you don't have to do them as much*. 

Suppose you arrive at your pricing by using a business model based on the following assumptions:
Labor 40%
Material 20%
Overhead 15%
Sales Costs 10%
Marketing Costs 5%
Profit 10%

If you are being "handed" jobs by this general contractor, are you be willing to forfeit some of your sales commission in exchange for not having to go on sales calls? If the repeat business is a constant flow, could you give up some of your marketing costs? 

Every situation is different. I'm really just pushing the idea of recognizing where your costs are to determine your pricing. I'd love to give up 10% right now if someone was handing me work. 

*There is a danger in becoming too dependent on one contractor if you suspend your sales and marketing efforts. He can change electricians and you have to start over.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

I pay 10% to 20% less than the homeowner. I market, I sign it up. I always pay the bill on time.
Is there any value in that?
My trade partners seem to think so. 
Oh, I didn't have to ask, but it came up eventually, they let me know and I told them I already knew they were taking care of me. I never had a sub quit me. I'm proud of that.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

1) If you are promising future work based on a discount price now, then let's do this job first at the regular rate and then we'll discuss a bit of a discount for the next one once we get that contract set up.

2) You say that now, but you are still a slave to the person who hired you in the first place. So if they want something changed, crap rolls downhill. <Insert cost of change order here>

3) How do you know what it costs me to run my business? I charge what I need to charge in order to stay in business.

4) What difference does that make? My builder said the same thing.. and I am still out several thousand bucks because they have run out of money.


And I KNOW I will never hear from you again unless the other guy you got to work cheaper f's up.





bwalley said:


> I am a General Contractor, I would expect an electrician or any other subcontractor working for me to give me a break on price for a couple of reasons.
> 
> 1) I will hire you for future jobs if I am taken care of.
> 
> ...


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Right-o. I'm only talking about the norms. I think there are sh*tty ass GCs no doubt, just horrible ones that you shake your head at, but I think on average between a GC and a homeowner the GC is going to be easier to work your trade on the job then the homeowner. But that's also just part of it, there still is no customer acquistion costs and hand holding with a whole sale customer vs a retail one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I totally agree that it's easier to explain to a general contractor what needs to be done and why than it is a home or business owner. No doubt about that. So now I do think it should be a cheaper price to the GC just because of that reason alone. There's less running around but I still have to be there to get the permits and meet with inspectors so...


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I can assure you I get a better price from my subs then they give a home owner, or business call. The best reason was stated above: Repeat business. 

Alienate the general contractors you work for and see how things go in the new construction business....that is, assuming we recover.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Oh, I definitely feel more comfortable expecting to get paid from a homeowner than I would GC. 

Also, I'm under the impression that "give us a fair price and we'll have more work for you later" is the worst kind of come on that there is, especially from a HO. 

Like I said, I'm not in business for myself yet, but I have spent the past 19 years listening and paying attention to what's going on.


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## Billys1980 (Jan 16, 2009)

I had never been asked the question before. We've had homeowners looking to flip a house quick, when the market was great, and they would let us know that if we took care of them on this job, we could do the other house when they started. Our theory was like Building Homes stated: Let's do this job first, etc. We've had many GC's over the years promise us additional work, then use some shi*ty electrical company on the next job. Then the next thing you know, they're calling you again, then they're off again to someone else. Should I take care of them? I've had a lot of GC's that have not paid their bills, whether the customer stiffed them, GC's going bankrupt, GC's being paid and forgetting to pay subs! A man's word used to mean alot, along with a handshake! Not so much anymore. 

I believe I provide excellent service to all my customers, regardless of title, at a fair price. Maybe I don't follow the industry standards?! Guess I'll have to do a little more thinking on the subject. How does one determine a fair discount per job, etc. to still run a business and make sure you get return calls in today's economy?


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

My current electrical sub used to be my employer. I used to do his invoiving and paperwork, and still help him from time to time (I switched him over to electronic invoicing and he's pretty old).

He gives GCs the same rate as a Homeowner.

However, there are some jobs that he'll reduce his rate for. Like he had an ongoing job where he had guys going every day, punching in and out, 5 days a week. Was (supposed to be) ongoing for 1-2 years. He gave them a reduced rate. Is there anyone out there who would argue against that?

He also gives the _good_ GCs a reduced rate when they are doing their own homes or offices. He also gives me a reduced rate for now, but I'm special.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

BuildingHomes said:


> 1) If you are promising future work based on a discount price now, then let's do this job first at the regular rate and then we'll discuss a bit of a discount for the next one once we get that contract set up.
> 
> 2) You say that now, but you are still a slave to the person who hired you in the first place. So if they want something changed, crap rolls downhill. <Insert cost of change order here>
> 
> ...


If you like doing little BS jobs that a HO will give you that is fine, I am a GC that does Residential and Commercial work, I have a job I am doing now that the down payment is larger than 5 residential jobs.

Would you rather chase 20 homeowners for work, or would you rather deal with 1 GC on a job that is more profitable and less headaches, than the 20 residential jobs combined?

I am not asking my subs for a break, I am just not paying "Retail" for a job.

I do not hire the cheapest sub, I hire the guy who can do the job the way i want it done.

Whenever I make change order's I expect to pay for them while a homeowner doesn't understand or chooses not to and will typically pitch a fit when asked to pay for a change.

If you have too much overhead because you can't control your labor costs or your material costs are too high because you bought too much material or are paying too much for it, that isn't my fault, I am not paying a contractor more because he can't control his costs.


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## tiderunner (Jul 31, 2008)

I have tried to giving discounted rates to what I thought was a good GC. Unfortunately when you do a good job and find out the GC is a stinkin looser who dosnt pay his subs it ends up costing you in the end.:furious: Now when I meet a new GC for the first time I do not cut any breaks and get at least 50% or more upfront before touching a tool. If I have done a few jobs for the same GC and payments have been on time then I may try to keep prices a little lower hoping I can remain there sub. :notworthy


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

tiderunner said:


> I have tried to giving discounted rates to what I thought was a good GC. Unfortunately when you do a good job and find out the GC is a stinkin looser who dosnt pay his subs it ends up costing you in the end.:furious: Now when I meet a new GC for the first time I do not cut any breaks and get at least 50% or more upfront before touching a tool. If I have done a few jobs for the same GC and payments have been on time then I may try to keep prices a little lower hoping I can remain there sub. :notworthy


Do you think I am going to give a sub $50,000 or more down on a $100,000 job?

You must be smokin' crack.


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## tiderunner (Jul 31, 2008)

No crack here! I dont usually take on jobs that large as a small electrical contractor. But I have no problem getting 50% down on 20-30,000 jobs. If I did a 100,000 job I may make some type of other progress payment arrangements. Somthing a little less to start. Depends on alot of factors. Also, depends on how I feel after I initially meet the GC also. Some jobs I would not even persue if I get a bad feeling.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

tiderunner said:


> No crack here! I dont usually take on jobs that large as a small electrical contractor. But I have no problem getting 50% down on 20-30,000 jobs. If I did a 100,000 job I may make some type of other progress payment arrangements. Somthing a little less to start. Depends on alot of factors. Also, depends on how I feel after I initially meet the GC also. Some jobs I would not even persue if I get a bad feeling.


Ha! I can't think of anyone I know who would pay a sub 50% down. I would consider a small amount down, myself under certain circumstances (i.e. they had to order special materials in advance) and I knew them.

You're really limiting yourself by expecting 50% down :blink:

Every worthwile endeavor requires a little bit of risk, or you won't get any reward.

Good investors will tell you all about risk management and how to minimize risk, but you can't eliminate it. Same thing applies to pretty much any way of makin' money! (other than winning the lotto, but good *luck* with that :laughing


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I can't believe what I'm reading. My subs have it pretty easy. After doing a few jobs, If I'm satisfied with your price and your work I don't even ask for a bid, I just call and say do the job. I know what it should cost, my subs have never tried to screw me nor I them. 

When they finish the rough they get paid for it. If they have a bill on site, they get a check on site. Same with the final. Most of the time they mail me the invoice and I mail them the check that same week. 

When they get on site the place is clean and ready for them. Everything is done in the correct order and I don't expect subs to trip over other subs. The tinner will finish, then the plumber, then the sparky, then I get the inspections. We finish the same way. The carpet installer is the last guy, no one is tracking mud over the new carpet. 

If the sub needs something from me it's there. The fart fans are already hung when the tinner gets there. 

I expect a 10% - 20% discount off working for homeowners. I think I earn that discount with the way I treat them. 

Twice in my 30 year career I had to lien then foreclose on the homeowner. In both cases I waited the 2-3 years to collect but the subs never waited. I figured it was my job to provide financing.

Material suppliers get treated the same way. Every bill gets paid every week.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

You're a stand-up guy Thom. I would work for you any day.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I don't give the GC a discount, I charge the HO more!!


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## paintr56 (Feb 4, 2005)

I am a paint contractor. If I bid a job for a GC (not often I have to be real low on work to consider it). I charge more. When I work for a home owner I am usually in charge of the job, not tripping over other trades that were supposed to be out before I got there, not called late in the evening with some reason why the plans for tomorrow must all be changed, and most importantly on the last day of the job when I do a final walk through with a home owner I get a check right then. With a G.C. it is more often then not I get paid when ever. When looking for money I don't hear from a home owner just do the next three units and when one of them sells I can pay your for the ones you already painted. Of coarse that isn't what I would tell him.

Jim


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

thom said:


> I can't believe what I'm reading. My subs have it pretty easy. After doing a few jobs, If I'm satisfied with your price and your work I don't even ask for a bid, I just call and say do the job. I know what it should cost, my subs have never tried to screw me nor I them.
> 
> When they finish the rough they get paid for it. If they have a bill on site, they get a check on site. Same with the final. Most of the time they mail me the invoice and I mail them the check that same week.
> 
> ...


These are signs of how smart operators run in this buisness. These are the signs of guys who have figured it out. These are the signs of guys who know it makes no sense to step over dollar bills to pick up a penny.

These are signs of how a business runs outside the construction industry. The methods used to running a business well don't differ much just because you are in construction. This is the thing that would help so many guys in this industry if they just look at the ways successful companies run inside or outside construction and apply those methods to what they do. Instead it seems so many of us look only at how other contractors do things which isn't always the best ways.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

paintr56 said:


> I am a paint contractor. If I bid a job for a GC (not often I have to be real low on work to consider it). I charge more. When I work for a home owner I am usually in charge of the job, not tripping over other trades that were supposed to be out before I got there, not called late in the evening with some reason why the plans for tomorrow must all be changed, and most importantly on the last day of the job when I do a final walk through with a home owner I get a check right then. With a G.C. it is more often then not I get paid when ever. When looking for money I don't here from a home owner just do the next three units and when one of them sells I can pay your for the ones you already paint. Of coarse that isn't what I would tell him.
> 
> Jim


Sounds like you are working for the wrong GC's.

I would much rather deal witha professional such as a GC who has realistic expectations than a homeowner, but many subs are hacks and can convince the HO that crap work is good.

Once I get good subs, they get all of my work, they bid it, many times they are the only bid, they get hired, they do the job they get paid and we go onto the next job.

I have had subs turn in bids that were too low, I could have hired them at that price, but I knew they missed something, I mentioned it to them and asked them what they forgot, they went back and re bid it, and I hired them at the higher price.

The 1st time I did that on one of my subs he was shocked, he asked me why I didn't just hire him at the lower bid and save the money?

I told him on this one job I would save some money, but he might end up going out of business because he was bidding jobs too low, and if he was out of business, what good does that do me?

I would rather get good subs at a fair price (Not too cheap) that does good work that I can count on in the future.

I just wrapped up a kitchen remodel, I used a plumber that was a referral for the job, as I haven't found a good plumber yet, that is why I am getting my plumbing contractors license,, well anyway Wayne bids the job, which was very reasonable, it was an in and out job for them since I was cutting the floors and patching them myself, his bid included the permit, he calls me the next dau and says the permit was $108 and was bit shocked that it was so high, I told him (without hesitation) I would pay for the permit, because I knew he was expecting a $35 permit, all I asked him to do was line item the permit in his bill, he did the job and both of us were happy, I think he thought we were going to have an issue over $108, it isn't worth it, for me the money was a small percentage of the overall job, for him it was a large percentage of his job.

In checking with the building permit, they charged him for the wrong permit, but once they get money, they will not refund or give a credit without a long drawn out battle, it wasn't worth it to me.

I treat my subs well and most times they are paid before I am, I have had clients burn me, yet my subs were paid and never knew I was burned by the HO, because it wasn't their business.

I have also had subs burn me on stupid amounts of money and only ended up losing future work ebcause they got their money and never came back to finish the job.

I am doing a commercial job, my client chose the Architect, and before he was finished he ended up getting paid by the owner and then had the nerve to bill us for additional work that was already paid for, he ended getting part of the bill paid and there was a balance, I told him until he delivered what we paid for, he was not egtting the balance, he has since abandoned the job and burning my client for about $25,000.

Now we have to hire a civil engineer, a structural engineer a draftsman, and a landscape architect to finish the plans, even though the Architect has already been paid and has delayed the job by almost a year.

The Architect was a 'friend' of my client, I am stuck cleaning up the architects mess, but that is OK, because my client is a very good client as well as a friend.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

bwalley said:


> If you like doing little BS jobs that a HO will give you that is fine, I am a GC that does Residential and Commercial work, I have a job I am doing now that the down payment is larger than 5 residential jobs.


This is why I bill a minimum of 2 hours to show up, even if it takes me 15 minutes to do. That way I am covering my overhead to get there.

I also do small jobs for GCs. But those always go over the 2 hour minimum so it has never been an issue.



bwalley said:


> Would you rather chase 20 homeowners for work, or would you rather deal with 1 GC on a job that is more profitable and less headaches, than the 20 residential jobs combined?


20 home owners means 20 more referrals. 1 GC that I do a lot of work for means many eggs in the one basket. Now if I had 20 GCs, different story.




bwalley said:


> I am not asking my subs for a break, I am just not paying "Retail" for a job.


Wholesale is typically based on volume. You need to establish the volume first before discounts can be applied. I think every single person here has heard the "You do this for a good price and I'll get you lots of work later.." and then you NEVER hear from them again.




bwalley said:


> If you have too much overhead because you can't control your labor costs or your material costs are too high because you bought too much material or are paying too much for it, that isn't my fault, I am not paying a contractor more because he can't control his costs.


Again, how could you possibly know how someone runs their business? They charge what they need to charge in order to stay in business. Take it or leave it. If you think they are too expensive and you leave it then neither one of you is taking a loss.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

bwalley said:


> I am a General Contractor, I would expect an electrician or any other subcontractor working for me to give me a break on price for a couple of reasons.
> 
> 1) I will hire you for future jobs if I am taken care of.
> 
> The home owner will hire you just once, how many houses or room additions are they going to do?


We have just entered into our first meeting - and you want a discount based on some myth of future work?
Maybe you will back me into a corner on this first job?
YOU have to prove that I would consider working with you again.
NO DISCOUNT FOR YOU.


bwalley said:


> 2) I know what I want and how it shold be done and will stay out of your way.
> 
> The home owner has no clue what is going on, will get in your way, get upset when they change things and get mad when you give them a change order.


The HO will ask you about the MACs.
Then you, as a non-EC, will be able to accurately inform the HO of the requirements for the MAC as well as the price?
I don't think so.
YOU will be just as obtrusive as the HO.
YOU will try and knock down my price as well.
No savings for me here.


bwalley said:


> 3) I know what a job should cost, so if you are out of line I will not hire you.
> 
> The homeowner has no clue what it should cost, with some of them even if you gave the job away they will complain.


You *think* you know what a job cost based on previous experience...however, you have no experience working with me or current code changes.
I don't think I would want to EC for you at this point....talk about ego and micromanagement!



bwalley said:


> 4) I make sure my subs get paid.
> 
> The home owner may not pay you.



LMAO
Famous words that hold as much water as brown bag....but since you are so benevolent and wealthy ~ when the HO doesn't pay you, you are still going to pay me?
Looks good on paper, but reality is a lot messier than theory.

***

After we have established a GOOD working relationship, and you have proved to me you not a typical scum-bag GC, I might *consider* a reduced price....then again, I might not.
You will NOT get a reduction based on the "promise" of any future work.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

bwalley said:


> Do you think I am going to give a sub $50,000 or more down on a $100,000 job?
> 
> You must be smokin' crack.





Winchester said:


> Ha! I can't think of anyone I know who would pay a sub 50% down. I would consider a small amount down, myself under certain circumstances (i.e. they had to order special materials in advance) and I knew them.
> 
> You're really limiting yourself by expecting 50% down :blink:
> 
> ...


How much [%] would you consider as adequate down prior to having a rough electrical inspection for a typical SFH?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> I'm not in business for myself (yet), but I think I would charge a GC a little less based simply on the amount of work we could do together over the course of a year, 2 years, decade, etc.
> 
> Please tell me I am wrong (Celtic, Mahlere), because no matter who I work for my overhead never changes.


Why Mags...why?:no:

You should not base a current offer on promises of future offers.....OFFERS ~ no one guaranteed you the current or future job....especially from an unknown.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

My EC and plumber make more money on my jobs than any other remodeler they work with.

I usually install all the crap that you see on tv so they have to read, prepare and spend more time on my jobs than any were else.

I do not care what they charge, I only care that I can mark it up and make my neccessary oh and profit

By the time the rough in's are done they usually have 90% of their money.

They get a 30% deposit up front and 60% after rough in inspection 10% after final inspection.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

rbsremodeling said:


> My EC and plumber make more money on my jobs than any other remodeler they work with.
> 
> I usually install all the crap that you see on tv so they have to read, prepare and spend more time on my jobs than any were else.
> 
> ...


In my experience, the value up to rough electrical inspection runs at about 67 - 72% of my price.
My contract is structured to receive that % by the time the rough has *passed* the EI...if it fails [which never happens :thumbup:] that % [usually about 15 - 20%] is not due until the EI has passed.
I will NOT move forward until the %'s [$] have been met.


In NJ, final payment cannot be demanded until after final inspection. The State does not dictate what % or $ amount. I will usually leave no more than 5 or 10% for this final amount.


I am not knocking you RBS....but 90% by rough may leave you too exposed.
Don't get me wrong - I would LOVE 90% at rough.....but I do not think that is being fair to the GC.
JMHO.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Celtic said:


> In my experience, the value up to rough electrical inspection runs at about 67 - 72% of my price.
> My contract is structured to receive that % by the time the rough has *passed* the EI...if it fails [which never happens :thumbup:] that % [usually about 15 - 20%] is not due until the EI has passed.
> I will NOT move forward until the %'s [$] have been met.



Because of the uniqueness of a lot of the products we install or the house being used before final inspection the job is usually done but just waiting for final inspection to collect money. 

Nothing is usually left to be set or completed on the ec or plumber's end just collecting the final stickers.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

there are justifiable reasons to give a GC a lower price....more work is not one of them....

for you GC's, why do you deserve a lower price? give real reasons....how can i give you a lower price and not cut into my profit?


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

mahlere said:


> there are justifiable reasons to give a GC a lower price....more work is not one of them....
> 
> for you GC's, why do you deserve a lower price? give real reasons....how can i give you a lower price and not cut into my profit?



I know for me a sub would not have to give a lower price. It would probably have to be higher than your norm because of the difficulty or newness of the materials and products that I use.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Celtic said:


> How much [%] would you consider as adequate down prior to having a rough electrical inspection for a typical SFH?


An exact percentage of the total job is not an exact science, but somewhere around 10%-15%.

I would never consider giving an electrical sub 50% down on a large job or any job unless there was a very good reason to.

I am not taking a chance with my clients money on the guy not doing his job and me having to sue the guy to get my money back.

We usually will pay a down payment that will cover the materials that are being used on the job at that time (Not all of the material for the whole job) and some of the initial labor.

If there is some specialty equipment, we will work that into the draw schedule.

Most electricians are getting their materials on credit and are paid by us before they end up paying the supply house and sometimes it causes issues with lien releases since the supply house will not sign a lien release or partial lien release until they have been paid but I expect a partial lien release everytime I make a payment.

As we get the 1st electrical rough in inspection, we will pay another draw at that point, then we will pay on the 2nd rough in, then we will pay the balance at the trim out or final inspection.

Residential jobs are quicker they are in out out rather quickly, so many times they are paid 100% before they even get a bill from the supply house.

In Florida we can get the electrical inspections, even the final done before the other trades or the master permit has their final, so the electrician is not being held up by other trades or the GC.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

rbsremodeling said:


> Because of the uniqueness of a lot of the products we install or the house being used before final inspection the job is usually done but just waiting for final inspection to collect money.
> 
> Nothing is usually left to be set or completed on the ec or plumber's end just collecting the final stickers.


In DC, there is no CO [Certificate of Occupancy] inspection required before occupancy?


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Celtic said:


> In DC, there is no CO [Certificate of Occupancy] inspection required before occupancy?



Only on New homes or if you convert a basement to an apartment or existing house to a multi-use home. 

If it is a remodel no CO is required unless the use is changed from SF to Multi-use dwelling


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

mahlere said:


> there are justifiable reasons to give a GC a lower price....more work is not one of them....
> 
> for you GC's, why do you deserve a lower price? give real reasons....how can i give you a lower price and not cut into my profit?


Volume of work is definately a valid reason.

Working for a GC is not a one time job, you sales costs are lower.

Working for a GC is usually (Not always) easier as Homeowner's have no clue what they are doing, don't know what the proper sequence is.

Since you have a lower sales cost because you are not trying to sell over and over to the same GC and you will have less headache and labor in the job you will have less overhead and labor into the job.

How many Homeowners will hire an Electrician for commercial jobs?

None becasue they can't, only a GC will be hiring electricians for the commercial work.

Some people are cut out to work for residential clients only, if that is what pays your bills and puts food on your table that is great, but if a GC is putting steak on your table, shouldn't he be taken care of?

I nevr said or expected any sub to give work away, I am just pointing out the mindset of GC's that may or may not hire them.

My last electrical sub was terrible, his lead guy wouldn't listen to me, 

They didn't support the MC, got tagged, then they used tie wire, I told them they couldn't use metal tie wire, Bill said I didn't know WTF I was talking about, the inspector tageed them and made them cut all of the metal tie wire off and allowed them to use bat wings or nylon zip ties.

They got red tagged for not attaching the 2x4 drop ins to the grid, then they wanted to use the seismic clips, the inspector then red tagged them for that, eventually the inspector gave them a choice either attach the lights to the grid or independantly support them with their own wire, they finally did as I originally instructed them and attached the lights to the grid.

Also in the specs they are required to patch their own fire wall penetrations and it tells them how MC and conduit can enter into a rated wall, these guys ignored it and complained when the inspector made them fix it, I ended up using a case of fire caulk to fix it myself.

Quite a bit more of this crap went on, yet everything I pointed out to them, they got tageed on by the inspector and I never mentioned any of this to the inspector.

I think they were more residential service electricians than new construction or especially commercial, even though the owner had a Crtified (Statewide) license, I tried using a smaller guy for this remodel and it bit mein the ass.

Some of us GC's do know about other trades, including electrical, just because we are not doing electrical work, does not mean we don't know how it should be done, I am sure there are some area's we wouldn't know the difference on, but if I am not sure and have a question, I will find out how it is to be done per NEC.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Celtic said:


> How much [%] would you consider as adequate down prior to having a rough electrical inspection for a typical SFH?





bwalley said:


> An exact percentage of the total job is not an exact science, but somewhere around 10%-15%.


:blink:



Celtic said:


> In my experience, the value up to rough electrical inspection runs at about 67 - 72% of my price.



True, it is not an exact science....but 10 - 15% ????
What are YOU smoking? #*27*

You claim you "know the price"[ #*15*], but you estimate the rough in value for electrical portion at 15% of the EC's number.....You clearly do not know the price as claimed. You really believe the EC's bulk of coast is at trim?





bwalley said:


> I would never consider giving an electrical sub 50% down on a large job or any job unless there was a very good reason to.
> 
> I am not taking a chance with my clients money on the guy not doing his job and me having to sue the guy to get my money back.
> 
> ...


Like I stated previously, the electrical portion of the job [based on the EC's number] is in the 67% - 72% range.
Taking a chance on the EC not performing is bound to happen when he has not been supplied with the working capital required to get to rough inspection stage.
Your numbers are backwards.




bwalley said:


> Most electricians are getting their materials on credit and are paid by us before they end up paying the supply house and sometimes it causes issues with lien releases since the supply house will not sign a lien release or partial lien release until they have been paid but I expect a partial lien release everytime I make a payment.


I can see why at 15% 





bwalley said:


> As we get the 1st electrical rough in inspection, we will pay another draw at that point, then we will pay on the 2nd rough in, then we will pay the balance at the trim out or final inspection.


Unless the place is a mega custom mansion, I cannot imagine having 2 rough inspections for electrical...the EI's must like to spend a lot time driving around in thier cars with the AC blasting.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

bwalley said:


> Volume of work is definately a valid reason.
> 
> Working for a GC is not a one time job, you sales costs are lower.


 So right out of the gate, first job...the EC should drop his number based on some imaginary promise of additional work/jobs?

Let's get a couple of jobs under our belts...see if we are "compatible"...then we will discuss any thoughts of a discount.



bwalley said:


> Working for a GC is usually (Not always) easier as Homeowner's have no clue what they are doing, don't know what the proper sequence is.


So far...I am not impressed with your "clues".



bwalley said:


> Since you have a lower sales cost because you are not trying to sell over and over to the same GC and you will have less headache and labor in the job you will have less overhead and labor into the job.


:blink:
Is every home built exactly the same....same COGs, same archy, same HO, same HVAC man, same drywallers, same painters, same plumber, same framers, same tile man, same street, etc etc etc.

I though it wasn't an exact science #*45*





bwalley said:


> How many Homeowners will hire an Electrician for commercial jobs?


How many homeowners will hire an electrician to wire their yacht? :blink:

Try and stay focused a little bit on the OP's question and the topic.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Celtic said:


> :blink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The bulk of his job cost is not 1st day on the job, any electrician that knows what he is doing will not load the job with every peice of wire and equipment he needs for all of his rough ins on the 1st day, I guess you guys never had a problem with copper thefts.

Maybe you work on small jobs where you get done in a day or two, but larger commercial jobs take longer and they get paid in multiple draws, as they get work done.

When I have jobs that require a large amount of materials, the day the materials show up on the job if the sub has arranged it, they will get a check, when we have a roof done, we pay a small percentage down, when the roof is loaded with materials we pay another draw (Usually the largest) and then upon passing final inspection the balance due will be paid unless there is any retainage.

have you ever heard the term Progress payment? 

It means as the job progresses you get paid.

Allowing contractors to get too far ahead of you in the draw schedule is a bad idea, also from a contractors point of view, it is a bad idea to get too far behind in the draw schedule.

By the time the second rough is done, the electrician will have been paid the majority of their money, in may cases probably as high as 85%, but we were talking about DOWN Payment here.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Celtic said:


> How many homeowners will hire an electrician to wire their yacht? :blink:
> 
> Try and stay focused a little bit on the OP's question and the topic.


In Florida Electricians are not who wires a yacht, it is an unregulated field, but some of the electricians I have seen, I wouldn't allow them anywhere near the marina, let alone on a clients yacht, and I do have a few clients that own yachts.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

bwalley said:


> Volume of work is definately a valid reason.


not if i'm not making money...it's the old "we lose money on every job, but we make it up in volume" theory...




bwalley said:


> Working for a GC is not a one time job, you sales costs are lower.


what about all the extra costs associated with chasing my money? interest costs for being the bank for 30, 60, 90 days...if you pay on time, every time, with no hassles, hats off....



bwalley said:


> Working for a GC is usually (Not always) easier as Homeowner's have no clue what they are doing, don't know what the proper sequence is.


working for a GC who thinks he knows something is way more difficult than working for any homeowner...few and far between are the GC's/Supers who truly know...



bwalley said:


> Since you have a lower sales cost because you are not trying to sell over and over to the same GC and you will have less headache and labor in the job you will have less overhead and labor into the job.


only if is a symbiotic relationship where the GC doesn't shop every job out to 30 different EC's looking for the best price...



bwalley said:


> How many Homeowners will hire an Electrician for commercial jobs?


50% of our work is directly for the company that owns the building...service and installations...we'll end run a GC in a heartbeat and get the contract direct with our customer...



bwalley said:


> None becasue they can't, only a GC will be hiring electricians for the commercial work.


maybe in Florida....



bwalley said:


> Some people are cut out to work for residential clients only, if that is what pays your bills and puts food on your table that is great, but if a GC is putting steak on your table, shouldn't he be taken care of?


i've put more steak on my plate from working directly with the customer (whether resi or commercial) than I will ever be able to in working with a particular GC...now, work with 10 different GC's and run 100 men, and you have steak...but 1 GC? not in this day and age...



bwalley said:


> I nevr said or expected any sub to give work away, I am just pointing out the mindset of GC's that may or may not hire them.
> 
> My last electrical sub was terrible, his lead guy wouldn't listen to me,
> 
> ...


still no valid reasons why a GC should receive a discount...though the sales/marketing one could be valid for the right GC...no way to know this until after you've done a few jobs and actually got paid on time....

I think its the assumption that right of the bat we should bend over is what has Celtic so perplexed...


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

I don't bid shop my subs that I use on a regular basis, unles they give me a reason to.

I am not into getting the cheapest sub available, because the headaches are not worth it.

Once I find a good sub, I give them all of my work and I work with them, if they need more money down for a valid reason, I give it to them, if they need money at rough in but are close to getting it, I will pay them in advance of getting the inspection.

I also know when the inspections are scheduled and once they pass (even if it doesn't and the issue is going to be quickly resolved), many I will hand the sub a check right after the inspector leaves.

Many times things in the plans get deleted and then things get added, I don't nickel and dime them looking for a credit and I don't expect to get a change order because in one offiice we added a duplex receptacle, when we deleted some in other offices.

Seems to me you guys have had bad exeriences working for GC's, if thats the case, don't bid on work for a GC, stay with what works for you.

Once a sub has an issue that they will not resolve or burn's me by not doing what they were paid to do, I will not ever use them again and I will let my other friends know about them.

I recommended a pool company to build my Mother In Laws pool, they wouldn't take care of some minor ($200) issues, I asked them repeatedly to fix it and they would never do it right, I ended up having on of my guys fix it, they have since lost about 20 new pool constructionjobs since then because I reffered my clients to another pool builder and they had them build their pool, and the average pool job is $45,000 +, and are very profittable, so for a a few hundred bucks they lost thousands of dollars worth of work so far.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

bwalley said:


> Maybe you work on small jobs where you get done in a day or two, but larger commercial jobs take longer and they get paid in multiple draws, as they get work done.


Try and stay focused....the OP is talking RESI.

You keep interjecting comm. jobs into the mix which is a completely different animal.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Try and stay focused....the OP is talking RESI.
> 
> You keep interjecting comm. jobs into the mix which is a completely different animal.


Even on a residenial job I wouldn't pay 50% down.

most contracts are signed, and some period of time will pass before they show up to do the work.

When the guys show up and get the majority of it roughed in, I will have another check ready for them, but I will need a partial lien release from the electrician and the suplly house since the electrician most likely will be done and paid by the time he gets a statement from his supply house.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

Celtic said:


> How much [%] would you consider as adequate down prior to having a rough electrical inspection for a typical SFH?





Celtic said:


> In my experience, the value up to rough electrical inspection runs at about 67 - 72% of my price.
> My contract is structured to receive that % by the time the rough has *passed* the EI...if it fails [which never happens :thumbup:] that % [usually about 15 - 20%] is not due until the EI has passed.
> I will NOT move forward until the %'s [$] have been met.
> 
> ...


To me, that is not considered down payment, that is a progress payment or draw. If the rough is done, you've obviously done work, and I have no problem paying up. Most jobs I do right now, however, I pay at completion, because they usually don't go over a week for subs. If they are longer, then it is fair to expect money along the way. We all have payroll and expenses.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

You know, there is an assumption here that we have to bargain these positions, I get calls nearly every day from sub contractors looking for my business....and I sometimes ask what they charge.....and it goes like this very often: I usually do it for X but if you have a lot of work, and you like my work, then I can cut my price to Y. 

Great example is framing....crews were getting up to $5 a sq/ft plus extras...and now, it is done for $2.75 including drying in completely...no up charges anywhere...and on a project I know of being built right now, they cut it to $2.50 since they will build 4 in a row. Sorry guys, but that is the way things are going. How many HO's are going to put food on the table when times get tough? 

These threads that spend a lot of time banging on GC's like we are crap are getting annoying. I pay, as most others do, on site when the job is complete. If invoiced, the check goes usually the next day. As a general, I solve all the problems, make all the critical decisions, and take all the heat....not the sub...and some of you want to say this isn't worth the discount?


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

The more I think about this, I want to call BS on a few of you guys. Do you really think, for example, that GC's on average are really stupid? That we don't know pricing down the line for most things we do? Like painting.....If a painter wants to break it off in me, and thinks I will bite the higher price, then he will be dealing only with HO's.....and, some of you know I am working hard to get a big project right now.....the hvac and electrical contractor are both wanting this as bad as I am.....the hvac guy came at me with what I think is a high bid...so I shopped it...and cut it by a 1/3. The guy giving me the break wants my business back....and I told him to bid fairly...I don't expect a cut rate, loose money deal from him....I am charging the customer and doing a percentage here. 

I don't operate like the subs I hire are dirt to be starved out....and the guys who do work for me seem to like my business.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

I think my question may have been confusing/not accurate:


Celtic said:


> How much [%] would you consider as adequate down prior to having a rough electrical inspection for a typical SFH?


I did not mean it to lead one [which it seems to] to think that the EC should be getting 62 - 72% at contract inception.
My intent was to ask what others felt the value was at the point of rough inspection.

My apologizes to all.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

I like to look at GCs from the viewpoint of financial motivation. GCs make money from:

1). Marking up subs.
2). Getting cheaper subs, and
3). Increasing the time to paying invoices (or rather Statement #3,4 or 5).

I don't have any problem with motivation #1. I have major problems with #2 & #3. "More work" is the bait for clueless subs until motivation #2 takes over. IMO the "no sales cost" and sub reliability is a wash. Production rate should be higher with a GC, but rarely is higher in my experience (see motivation #3).

I'm always amused by GCs complaining about sub quality & reliability when I know it's all about motivation #2. You get what you pay for.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

Celtic said:


> I think my question may have been confusing/not accurate:
> 
> 
> I did not mean it to lead one [which it seems to] to think that the EC should be getting 62 - 72% at contract inception.
> ...


I understood what you meant. I contract for 85-90% at rough.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Tiger said:


> I like to look at GCs from the viewpoint of financial motivation. GCs make money from:
> 
> 1). Marking up subs.
> 2). Getting cheaper subs, and
> ...


 
Gawd... 

I had no idea that GCs were such suprerior creatures. Poor subs don't have a chance against them. Must be something genetic or something, cause how could it be GCs can keep pulling the same tricks on subs over and over and over again?

The way subs describe themselves it seems these crafty and whiley GCs are just too tricky, they keep putting that burning bag of dog crap on your porch, ringing the bell and running into the bushes and laughing as every time you keep running out the door and see that burning bag and stomp it out. Everytime you do it, you remind yourself you're not going to get fooled again by those crafty GCs, but every time, you keep ending up with sh*tty socks no matter how many times they do it. 

Damn those crafty GCs!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Gawd...
> 
> I had no idea that GCs were such suprerior creatures. Poor subs don't have a chance against them. Must be something genetic or something, cause how could it be GCs can keep pulling the same tricks on subs over and over and over again?
> 
> ...


My first lawyer, may he rest in peace said "GCs are the most likeable people you'll ever meet, but they're liars. They'll lie to the bank to get the money & they'll lie to the subs to get whatever they want". ...and there are an endless supply of new subs to sucker.


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## precisionbuild (Nov 17, 2008)

Tiger said:


> My first lawyer, may he rest in peace said "GCs are the most likeable people you'll ever meet, but they're liars. They'll lie to the bank to get the money & they'll lie to the subs to get whatever they want". ...and there are an endless supply of new subs to sucker.



:furious:


I have subbed in the past. I do know alot of sh!tty contractors out there just like described, but this GC bashing is getting rediculous and out of hand. 

You don't want to work for them, then DON'T! It's pretty [email protected] simple actually.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Tiger said:


> I like to look at GCs from the viewpoint of financial motivation. GCs make money from:
> 
> 1). Marking up subs.
> 2). Getting cheaper subs, and
> ...


Getting cheaper subs is one thing, but some guys try to screw you on a bid, I had a drywal finisher tell me how great he was, he bid a small job for me, his price was outrageous, I told him I could finish it in 1 day and I am not that fast, he said he could get it done in about 4 hours, so I asked him why his price was so high.

He said "you can't blame a guy for trying" so I told him to go play games with someone else and I finished it myself.

He wanted $1200 for labor only for a job that he said would take him 4 hours, I did the job in about 8, came out good and I saved myself a bunch of money, had he bid $400 or even $500 I wouldn't have minded paying him that, which works out to $100 or more an hour for him, how many drywall finishers are making $100 per hour? yes I am aware he has overhead like taxes, he doesn't pay W/C because he was working under an exemption.

Many times a GC will use a sub because it works out better for them or in the case of certain trades we have to, electrical is one area I have to use a sub.

If I get prices that are too high, I end up just doing it in house and hire skilled labor to do the job.

Times are tough and a lot of subs are not working, the stupid ones try to make all of their money on the few bids they get coming in, the smart ones will give reasonable bids and get the job, the stupid ones sit at home, while the smart ones are working.

Please explain how I as a General Contractor make money by slow paying my subs?

I get no interest on my money in my business checking account, so how does me sitting on a bill make me money?

Even money market accounts aren't paying sh!t for interest.

My subs most of the time are paid before I am.

I have a kitchen job that we don't have an electrical final on, but the elctrician has been paid 100%, the Plumber has been paid 100% even though I have not been paid yet, cabinet guy has been paid, everyone else on the job has been paid, the only 2 guys on the job that has not been paid are the granite guy because he has not finished his work and me, the GC.

One of my motivations for getting my A/C License and Plumbing License is so I don't have to rely on subs, the only sub's I do have to deal with is the Underground Utilities, Electrical and Roofing and I have done enough roof work to know I don't want to be a roofer.

Seems to me there are a bunch of subcontractors that don't like working for GC's which is fine because for every 1 sub that doesn't want GC work there are 100 that do.

On a job where a HO hires a GC to do the job, how do you expect to get invited to bid if you tried to hose the GC on his last bid?

Here is a great owner builder job for you guys-

My neighbor is an owner builder, she has no clue what she is doing, my wife talked to her when she 1st started the project and the lady made a comment the reason she was building the house herself was because a contractor would be too expensive and would rip her off, my wife asked her if she took any bids from a general contractor to build her house, she said No, my wife said how do you know they were going to rip you off or are too expensive? before she could answer my wife siad my husband is a contractor.

This lady has been working on her house for 2.5 years and it is a mess, she screwed up when the started on the footer, they dug it, put the steel in, no chairs, I mentioned to my wife that it needed chairs my wife tells neighbor she complains about how expensive they are puts them in, termite gy poisons the footers, it rains no less than 10 times filling the footer up, she never pulled the steel and redug the footers and poured on top of muck and other organic matter.

The do the stem wall, they must have screwed up because another crew comes in rips out half of what was done and re does the stem wall, then they start bring in the fill, HO said one of her guys said she need 60 loads of fill she didn't beleive him so she started with 20 loads, 64 loads later the stem wall is mostly filled, it sit for several months and all kinds of weeds grow in it, also sand has now filled up the cells, my wife talked to her and she planned on just pouring conrete over top of theweeds, my wife said I don't think you will get your inspection passed with weeds in your fill, the lady said, what inspection, why do I need an inspection?

She ended up weed whacking it down and then brought more fill to cover it up, so now she has a soft foundation her footer is on and organic material under her slab.

They get the block up a little more than 1/2 way because she did not have enough block brought to the job, she didn't beleive the mason who told her what to order, so the broke down their scaffold and left, she reorders material and it is all dropped off at the front of the house, it isn't staged, another crew comes out and finishes it up.

saturday morning I hear some activity and talk to the pump guy, he asked if he could use my water I said sure no problem, he offered to pay me, I said thanks, but keep it, while he is waiting for mud we are talking and he asked what I did, i told him I was a GC and A/C contractor, so he told me that last night at 10:30 avis called him up and accused him of taking advantage of her on price, he was supposed to get his mud the next morning at 7:00, he told her fine pay him for what he already did (200 blow out patches) and she could get someone else to finish it because he gave her the same price he would have a contractor, not Homeowner prices which are always higher, she said she didn't think they needed 14 yards of mud, they only needed 10, he said fine pay me for pumping 10 and I will leave when I am done but you will have a cold joint, she orders 10 yards, they run out, he re measures and they order 7 more yards and since this is a saturday, it takes quite awhile to get more mud.

She orders trusses, part of them come out and are left on the ground for 2 months, no protection, then the rest of the trusses come out, they sit on the ground maybe 2 months before they start, a crew of 6 comes out they wait around for a couple of hours she shows up they talk a bit and then they start hand setting some trusses, they end up getting 14 or 15 trusses set in 1 day, this is a 6 man crew, they are not properly braced and will most likely eventually fall, had they had a crane there, 6 guys could have set the trusses in 1 day.

They start framing some interior walls, I was surprised but by looking at some of the other trusses they set, they are load bearing walls, yet the slab was not thickened and she only has WM in the slab.

The frameres are still not done getting the russes up, I don't know how they are going to do the last few without a crane, she has to have some termite damage on the trusses that were on the bottom of the stack and they have some weather damage due to being exposed for so long.

She only has a porta john out there on ocassion (when an inspector is going to show up) does not have her well in yet, does not have her temporary power pole hooked up, so when the subs come out they end up using my water and when I am not at home I am sure they end up using my power.

Is this the kind of homeowner you subs are looking to work for?


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Tiger said:


> My first lawyer, may he rest in peace said "GCs are the most likeable people you'll ever meet, but they're liars. They'll lie to the bank to get the money & they'll lie to the subs to get whatever they want". ...and there are an endless supply of new subs to sucker.


Thats funny, a lawyer calling GC's liars.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

bwalley said:


> Times are tough and a lot of subs are not working, the stupid ones try to make all of their money on the few bids they get coming in, the smart ones will give reasonable bids and get the job, the stupid ones sit at home, while the smart ones are working.


only if the guy working is actually making money...if he's losing money on the job, I'd rather sit at home...


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

bwalley said:


> thats funny, a lawyer calling gc's liars.


lol!


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

mahlere said:


> only if the guy working is actually making money...if he's losing money on the job, I'd rather sit at home...


Not asking a sub to lose money, just asking him to use someKY when he tries to screw me.

I had a slab 15x33 that needed to be poured, called one guy $4,200

another guy $3,500

I got a refferal from another contractor, talked to Charlie who is licensed, the other 2 guys were not and he did it for $1350, it had $600 in mud, he paid $55 to rent to sod cutter, but he did 3 jobs with it, his 2 sons ended up pulling out a 21 sq. ft slab that had an average thickness of 7", they loaded everything up on my trailer, they formed it, poured it and the total man hours in the job may have been 10-12 max, which works out to about $60-$70 per hour.

I paid him an extra $100 for the removal of the slab, because I was supposed to have gotten it out.

I paid him in cash because this was a job for a friend, and Charley is now doing my commercial job.

Would you rather be Charley or the other 2 guys?

Some guys who have no work are trying to hose people too make up for it, yet they are the reason they are sitting at home not working.

There are licensed guys doing concrete work for $2.50 a ft2 with a 500 ft2 min.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

I want to clarify my original post on this subject.
I do average about 10% break in price from my subs. I don't have them bid, when I get a design agreement I pretty much have the job. This seems to be worth the 10% they give me.
I got 20% a couple of times last year, the sub looked at the job and I sold it as an add on to existing work when I was acting as a trim guy only or doing a kitchen reface on the other job. So I found it and sold it for them. I don't see how this is bad for the sub.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Seems these poor subs are just stuck, can't get their own work, keep getting screwed by GCs. Poor subs sound kind of like a herd of dumb dairy cows. The GCs keep em around, give em a little feed to keep em barely alive and then milk em twice a day and sell their milk to the public and make millions off them off each job.

Poor subs. I don't even know how a sub can get up in the morning knowing he has no choice but to be milked by those superior GCs who are so crafty and tricky that the dumb subs can't even defend themselves.

Absolutely amazing how these poor subs have no control of their destiny. Funny how the GCs just name any price they want and the homeowner pays it, that's how it works right? The GC just figures out he wants a new Hummer on this job so he figures out the cost of the Hummer into the job and the homeowner say sure! Then the GC tells thesub what he will charge him and the poor dumb subs have to say yes to any number the GC tells them, those poor subs have no control of their businessness they can't say yes or no to a job aren't allowed to come up with thier own price for their own work... tisk tisk tisk... whoa is the poor sub let's all have a group hug for them...

Best thing a sub who thinks all GCs are too crafty and smart for them and live charmed lives of luxury at the country club, could do is get off the crack train of easy GC money. Stop sucking on the GC teat and go out there and man up and get their own work. 

Problem is most subs I know have not even a clue on how to do that. Those are the questions I get asked most often from my subs -"How do you get your work?" But I guess that's the GCs fault for being born to royalty and living the charmed life.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

bwalley said:


> I got a refferal from another contractor, talked to Charlie who is licensed, the other 2 guys were not and he did it for $1350, it had $600 in mud, he paid $55 to rent to sod cutter, but he did 3 jobs with it, his 2 sons ended up pulling out a 21 sq. ft slab that had an average thickness of 7", they loaded everything up on my trailer, they formed it, poured it and the total man hours in the job may have been 10-12 max, which works out to about $60-$70 per hour.
> 
> I paid him an extra $100 for the removal of the slab, because I was supposed to have gotten it out.
> 
> ...


I'd bet that Charlie was really at about 20-25 man hours for the job including mobilization, breakdown at the shop, travel, invoicing, etc...which would put him down in the $32-$40/hr range (including your 100 bonus) after material and rental...this is not taking into account any misc material (forms, etc) or fuel....

so, if I'm paying, I'd rather pay Charlie peanuts...but if I'm selling, or I'm an employee, I'd rather be or work for the other 2 guys...They can afford to pay me more...


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

silvertree said:


> I want to clarify my original post on this subject.
> I do average about 10% break in price from my subs. I don't have them bid, when I get a design agreement I pretty much have the job. This seems to be worth the 10% they give me.
> I got 20% a couple of times last year, the sub looked at the job and I sold it as an add on to existing work when I was acting as a trim guy only or doing a kitchen reface on the other job. So I found it and sold it for them. I don't see how this is bad for the sub.


it's not...this is a case where a discount is warranted...the only caveat is that it's based on the GC being honorable and paying on time and full, when the project warrants it...

it's the assumption that a discount is deserved from the jump, that gets most subs up in arms...it's the GC's that feel entitled to it...not the ones that earn the discount (whether through loyalty to the sub, or making our job easier, etc)


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Seems these poor subs are just stuck, can't get their own work, keep getting screwed by GCs. Poor subs sound kind of like a herd of dumb dairy cows. The GCs keep em around, give em a little feed to keep em barely alive and then milk em twice a day and sell their milk to the public and make millions off them off each job.
> 
> Poor subs. I don't even know how a sub can get up in the morning knowing he has no choice but to be milked by those superior GCs who are so crafty and tricky that the dumb subs can't even defend themselves.
> 
> ...


be careful mike...that soapbox you are standing on his pretty tall...


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Ok I have had enough of you subs. 

I want all of you to go outside, sit in your van and drink some coffee. I will call you inside and give you your opinions and pricing when I am ready for you. :laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

rbsremodeling said:


> Ok I have had enough of you subs.
> 
> I want all of you to go outside, sit in your van and drink some coffee. I will call you inside and give you your opinions and pricing when I am ready for you. :laughing:


Exactly. :laughing:

I always was under the impression that subs set their own prices, I always thought the process was they had their own overhead, expenses and profit margins and they calculated what they wanted to charge for a job.

I guess somehow that's not true.

I know though that it's tough for subs cause the crafty GCs practice black magic. GCs keep casting those spells on subs making them say yes when they should say no thanks.

Let's help out all the subs in the world- now hear this - when a GC says

_"Help me out on your prices on this one and I will give you a ton of work in the future"_

That is a spell, those are the black arts at work, that is the incantation of the dark GC weaving his spell on you.

You've been warned it's out there for all to see, the cat's out of the bag, no sub from this day on should have to worry about falling for that one again.

Now that that has been resolved, what's next? :laughing:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

mahlere said:


> I'd bet that Charlie was really at about 20-25 man hours for the job including mobilization, breakdown at the shop, travel, invoicing, etc...which would put him down in the $32-$40/hr range (including your 100 bonus) after material and rental...this is not taking into account any misc material (forms, etc) or fuel....
> 
> so, if I'm paying, I'd rather pay Charlie peanuts...but if I'm selling, or I'm an employee, I'd rather be or work for the other 2 guys...They can afford to pay me more...


How long does it take to form and pour 500 ft2 of slab?

He picked up the sod cutter, and did 3 jobs with it, it took him about 45 minutes to cut the sod from start to fisnish and he left.

his 2 sons came out and excavated and formed it, 2 hours (4 man hours).

The following day they met the batch truck on the job and pumped 6 yards of mud, 3 guys were there, they pumped it and fiished, after it was pumped 1 guy left with the pump to do another job, caharley and his other son celaned up while waiting for the mud to set up so they could steel trowel it and broom it, they were there about 3 hours total, so lets call it 7 man hours, because the one guy left with the pump after 1 hour.

invoicing took him 2 minutes maybe, I paid the batch truck dierctly for the mud, Charley gave me an invoice and I paid it in cash, he counted the money and said, I think you gave me too much money, I told him why I paid him extra, he said thanks but it wasn't necessary, I said keep it, he thanked me and left.

The following day I pulled the forms and Charley had them picked up on the way to another job.

I did not factor in any fuel or drive time, this job was scheduled into his other work.

There is no way he has 20-25 man hours in this job, factoring in drive time, maybe 15.

Charley was happy, and so was I.

I have another slab quite a bit larger for another friend of mine, Charley will give me a price and he will do it, I won't even waste my time getting another bid.

What do you think a 500 ft2 slab on grade 4" 3,000 psi pump mix concrete should be?

These small jobs I do for friends are cash jobs, he has no outlay for material.


As far as you rather working for the other 2 guys, you wouldn't be working, you would be sitting at home, because they didn't get the job.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Bwalley your just a cheap man stuck in his ways and that's cool. 

But what you think the price should be and how it should be done are opinions. 

The sub knows what he wants to charge and how he is going to do it. 

Everyone of your post bickers about price and technique, especially price more than anything else.

Let the other man/sub make some money for a change. Let him get a saturday, sunday off with his wife and kids.

Have you ever had a sub over to your house and cooked him and his family a meal and played with his kids.

I can hire, fire and admire with the best. 

But I never count another mans money, we are all in it together unless you fucz me. Until then lets all make some money.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Bingo!

That's what it comes down to and exaclty why this whole thing is so absurd to me. 

It's a free market and subs are able to choose who to and who not to work for. Just like I am, just like a customer is able to choose. We all get to choose.

All I can say is how we run things and how it works. I've had some subs come and go and I also have a core of subs we have been using for years. The ones we have been using for years obviously they like the way we do business and we like the way they do business. That's all it comes down to. This whole thing of GCs being evil and taking advantage of poor defensless subs is absurd.

Everybody has the right to choose who they want to work for. 

Mike's piss everybody off statement -* There are good subs and bad subs, good GCs and bad GCs, good customers and bad customers. If you find yourself over and over again working for or with the bad ones, you're too stupid to be successful in business anyways, so stop blaming others and start looking at yourself.*

I think people are making this way harder that it needs to be.

How about a little personal accountability people?


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

rbsremodeling said:


> Bwalley your just a cheap man stuck in his ways and that's cool.
> 
> But what you think the price should be and how it should be done are opinions.
> 
> ...


Yes I have had my subs over to my house and taken them out on my boat, my paver guy caught his 1st cobia on my boat, a 4 foot long one, I think it was his only Cobia, he took pictures of it at the bait house and he even won biggest fish of the month with it and got a $50 Publix gift certificate, they wanted to chip in for fuel but I wouldn't let them.

That was an offshore trip, about 45 miles.

I don't count another mans money, but when I am getting bids that are way high, why should I hire them?

The guys that were too high didn't even have a license, yet Charley does, he gave me his price, I hired him, he did extra work, and even though he didn't ask for it, I paid him extra for it, I think $100 to remove 21 ft2 of slab is pretty good, especially when I have paid between .65 ft 2 to 1.00 a ft2 to have it removed and hauled away.

If I was such a cheap bastard, why would I pay him extra?

I have also let subs that I have a working relationship know when they screw up and bid too low, and some subs I have never hired didn't get the job because they were too low and I wasn't going to take a chance on them starting a job and not being able to do it because they screwed up bidding it.

I have plenty of subs looking to work for me, my sign is in front of a job just down the road from the Tampa Bay Bucaneers training camp and I have had probably a couple of hundred if not more people stop by or call me looking for work.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Maybe one day one of your subs can afford to buy a boat and take you out fishing one day and return the favor:thumbsup:


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## precisionbuild (Nov 17, 2008)

rbsremodeling said:


> Maybe one day one of your subs can afford to buy a boat and take you out fishing one day and return the favor:thumbsup:


:thumbsup:
Homerun!


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Bwalley

I re read my post I do not want to come across like I am singling you out. 

I read your posts and do noy doubt you strive to do good work and produce good projects.

The pricing thing is just one of my pet peeves of mine.

I have seen it too often where GC's help put subs out of business.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

rbsremodeling said:


> Bwalley
> 
> I re read my post I do not want to come across like I am singling you out.
> 
> ...


I guess you missed the part where I have told my subs they bid too low.

A screen guy I use, bid a cage for me, he was way low at first I thought great, I will be able to make a few extra dollars, then I did a take off and called to get some pricing.

He left off the roof material in his bid.
Had I hired the guy, he would have done the job an dlost money, it migh not have made him go out of business, but he would have lost a few thousand dollars on this job.

Screen work in Florida is whored up pretty bad, so these guys are cutting their bids so tight it is easy for them to screw up and underbid a job.

I have also taken bids on job's where my preffered sub was too low and I have called them to let them know, they adjusted their bid upward because they left something out and they ended up getting the job at the higher price.

A good subcontractor that is no longer in business or is not making enough money on my jobs is no good to me, I want reliable FAIR subs, not cheap subs.

If I was cheap and beating down my subs, why wouldn't I save the money and pocket it?

BTW many of my subs have boats and nice houses, you should see the house a lawn guy has that does work in a neighborhood I work in, the Pool Guy has a 40x60 pool.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

bwalley said:


> I guess you missed the part where I have told my subs they bid too low.
> 
> A screen guy I use, bid a cage for me, he was way low at first I thought great, I will be able to make a few extra dollars, then I did a take off and called to get some pricing.
> 
> ...


Then I stand correct. Sometimes it is hard to read people not being face to face and not hearing the vocal tones and seeing facial reacations.

Hand shake?


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

rbsremodeling said:


> Then I stand correct. Sometimes it is hard to read people not being face to face and not hearing the vocal tones and seeing facial reacations.
> 
> Hand shake?


You owe me no apalogy, I was never mad at you.

Your handshake is accepted though.

I used to be a sub contractor, that is why I know how they should be treated.

I hated giving a GC a bid, doing the work, calling them to let them know there was some extras and after getting authorization to do it, going to settle up and not only did they want to beat me out of the approved extras, they wanted to renegotiate my bid after the work was done and take more money out of my pocket.

That is one of the reasons why I went and got my Building contractors license, and my A/C contractors license.

I have to go, but I have more stories of me taking care of my subs.


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## precisionbuild (Nov 17, 2008)

bwalley said:


> That is one of the reasons why I went and got my Building contractors license



That's why alot of contractors go the GC route. I'm with you all the way there. And that's one of the reasons we should strive to not follow in the bad GCs' footprints.:thumbsup:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

bwalley said:


> I hated giving a GC a bid, doing the work, calling them to let them know there was some extras and after getting authorization to do it, going to settle up and not only did they want to beat me out of the approved extras, they wanted to renegotiate my bid after the work was done and take more money out of my pocket.


Bingo...this thread isn't about any particular GC or sub...it's not about anyone here, necessarily....it's a general discussion to talk about an issue that affects many on this board...as well as tick off Finley and let him get some sarcasm out of his system...


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

...and let mahlere call the kettle black...


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

gone away for good


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> ...and let mahlere call the kettle black...


i know what color I am....but you....it's fun to see you start to turn red:laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Sorry, lack of personal accountability is what has created the nanny state we are already in. 

I would expect a sub contractor at some point needs to accept personal responsibilty for selling his soul to the devil. Doesn't seem to happen, instead they either ignore the horns and tail when they are there to see and assume they are working with Saint Peter in a Halloween costume, or they see the horns and tail on everyone they meet. Where along the way does personal accountability ever appear?


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## kbsparky (Oct 14, 2007)

rbsremodeling said:


> ....I have seen it too often where GC's help put subs out of business.


And I have no sympathy for any GC that has to go thru hell trying to sort out the mess he creates when hiring substandard subs, and then the job gets screwed.

Case-in-point:

A renegade electrical sub lowballs a bid on a public housing project. The GC laps it up thinking he is going to make out big time, by not having to pay as much for the electrical work as originally planned.:shifty:

The sub doesn't even have sufficient credit from the suppliers to keep the job going. GC opens up a job-specific account at the supply house so sub can keep working on the project. 

Sub takes advantage of this newly opened charge account, and starts buying up extra materials for other jobs, etc. Runs up huge bill at supply house. :shifty:

GC refused to pay large supply bill. :w00t:

Supply house puts lien on project, and calls in the bond. GC gets mad, and has to go thru a lot of hassles to clear up the mess, including hiring another electrical sub to finish/clean up the job. :blink:

GC ends up paying lots more than originally planned, due to his own greed. 

This fiasco went so far that the GC actually sent out a letter to all other electrical subs in the area telling them that any bids for future projects could not include any materials from this supply house, since they had caused them so much grief on this particular project. :no:

I could not believe that I actually got one of these letters from them, it was borderline slander in content. :blink:

In the end, the GC had to pay off the supplier, the renegade sub went out of business, and a retraction letter was sent out to everyone. I think the supplier threatened other legal action due to the first letter. :laughing:

Needless to say, I would not ever deal with the likes of this type of GC, who would stoop to such tactics. 

It is these types of things that goes on more often than many would like to admit that gives the GC's the stymied reputations that seem to be remembered in the discussions on the boards here.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

One of my GC's, basically has a pricing sheet and that i swhat they pay. So there are no surprises and everything is signed by homeowner before I do anything. Very simple and I'm happy.

Another one, I just met him in court 2 weeks ago, got $5,000 in mediation in small claims. He handed over his 1st $500 payment, what a fing loser $500 a month.


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## wireless (Nov 2, 2006)

bwalley said:


> Yes I have had my subs over to my house and taken them out on my boat, my paver guy caught his 1st cobia on my boat, a 4 foot long one, I think it was his only Cobia, he took pictures of it at the bait house and he even won biggest fish of the month with it and got a $50 Publix gift certificate, they wanted to chip in for fuel but I wouldn't let them.
> 
> That was an offshore trip, about 45 miles.
> 
> ...


 
Did you pay him extra because he did extra work or you felt bad that he did it so cheap?


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

My last project with a GC I did a service panel change & wired a basement as phase one of a large addition. The whole time the GC is on the project, he's checking caller ID on his cell w/o answering it. His voicemail isn't connected to leave a message, but he calls back in a few minutes. Most of his stories are about lawyers & court dates. We get about even in our contract & I put a contract for the big addition in front of him with materials on the van & he's not signing it, so I leave.

I don't hear from him for week after week & a few months. Then I get a call from the homeowner that he got an advance on a pile of expensive trim, never delivered the trim & abandoned the project. The EC left live wires hanging everywhere in an occupied home.

It was a rewire for me with quick payments from the homeowner. It turns out I was one of the few subs that was close to even on the money with him. Some were out thousands of dollars on multiple jobs, and the homeowner had to pay some subs that they had already paid the GC for.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

wireless said:


> Did you pay him extra because he did extra work or you felt bad that he did it so cheap?


I paid him extra because he did work that was not included in the original bid.

This was a gravy job for the guy, he fit it in between other jobs, had he not done this job, he would have had a little more free time, but less money.


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## D.A.S.Anthony (Dec 3, 2008)

If my subcontractors go out of business then I am left building new relationships, finding good reliable subs, and going into a project with an unknown. 

Every company has the right to make money and should make money on every job. We are not in this for the fun of it. 

With that said, if I am going to give joe the plumber 6 jobs this year at an average of 15,000-20,000 a contract. why do I not get a discount? I am making him steady money and leaving him alone on a job because of our history and relationship. It is easy guys, if you want the work that a GC gets, you have to be competitive.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

D.A.S.Anthony said:


> With that said, if I am going to give joe the plumber 6 jobs this year at an average of 15,000-20,000 a contract. why do I not get a discount?


So on which job does discounting begin?
1st...2nd...3rd?

How much?
5%...10%

Sliding scale?

Remember...we are in this to make money also.


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## wireless (Nov 2, 2006)

bwalley said:


> I think there are two different trains of thought here, some GC's want a discount, some just want fair pricing.
> 
> I expect fair pricing not a sub just trying to get what he can out of a job, and I don't stick my hand in their pocket and get mad when they stick their hand in my pocket.
> 
> ...


Again you are not giving him extra money if he has to send his guy to a different job site and do more work!


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## wireless (Nov 2, 2006)

bwalley said:


> How about subs giving GC's a good price to begin with instead of playing games trying to see how much they can get?
> 
> How about subs not trying to screw GC's when there is a change order?
> 
> ...


And when you are given the best price out of the gate, you are not going to be expecting a volume discount after the third job?


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

wireless said:


> So then you didn't pay him extra, you paid him for his work!


Sheesh! The guy did extra work outside of the original scope of work without getting consent first, not expecting more money and was paid for the extra work even though he didn't ask for it. Really, nothing to brag about, but at least it shows he's not an ******* penny-pinching GC out to screw everyone to make a buck


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

wireless said:


> Again you are not giving him extra money if he has to send his guy to a different job site and do more work!


Reading comprehension must be your weak point and obviously you don't understand business, do you own your own business or do you work for someone else?

You have no idea what you are talking about, the guy took longer on the jobsite than *I* thought it would, *he naver gave me a time frame for how long he thought it would take him*, he bid the job to haul away the masonry materials, he was a legal subcontractor who bid the job lump sum, not by the day, hour or load.

I never disclosed the prices the other guys were quoting me to each other.

He was very happy to get an extra 25% and his guy that came out to my property the next day was very happy with the tip I gave him, I am sure my tip was far more than he makes in a couple of hours.

He will also be doing other sitework for me in the future, as we were both happy with the job and the way we worked together.

BTW they sell the masonry so he was making money on that as well, I didn't care that he was selling it and am glad he did.

Have you ever had a GC pay you 25% more on a job because he thought you deserved it, without you asking for it?

I bet you are the type of guy that would complain if I gave you a $100 bill because you would prefer 2 $50's instead.

If it will make you feel better, I have a commercial job getting ready to start, I will make the electricians re bid the job since the scope of work has changed, we have deleted about 20 fire smoke dampers, so now sparkey has less work to do, I was originally going to just let them know about and figured it would wash out in the end since we usually end up doing add ons, Now I also get my change order prices quoted BEFORE the signing of the contract, so I know what an extra light, receptacle, circuit etc. costs me, so I can't get hosed on changes like the last electrician did.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

wireless said:


> And when you are given the best price out of the gate, you are not going to be expecting a volume discount after the third job?


I don't beat my subs up on price, they bid, (sometimes I only ask for 1 bid), if the price is close to where I think it should be I hire them, if I think it is high, I will ask them about it, if they can justify it, I hire them.

I guess I need to start expecting volume discounts from my subs and pocketing the extra money so I can buy a bigger boat.

My painter gives me a bid, I hire him, I don't ask for another bid, because he hasn't screwed me like the electricians have.

With the way the electricians whine here, maybe I should get that license, then I wouldn't need any subs except roofers and I have some good roofers that do work for me.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Winchester said:


> Sheesh! The guy did extra work outside of the original scope of work without getting consent first, not expecting more money and was paid for the extra work even though he didn't ask for it. Really, nothing to brag about, but at least it shows he's not an ******* penny-pinching GC out to screw everyone to make a buck


He was paid 25% more because he took longer than I thought it would take him, he never asked for or expected more money, he was shocked and very happy that I paid him 25% more than the bid price.

I asked him to do me a favor and do some minor work on my property, he could have refused, he was already paid.

For what I gave his guy in a tip, I could have paid someone in my area to come out with their bobcat or loader and do the work, it was very minor and didn't take him very long, I think he had planned on being out on my property the whole day.


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## wireless (Nov 2, 2006)

For easier reading (and my lack of HTML expertise) my responses are in red.



bwalley said:


> Reading comprehension must be your weak point and obviously you don't understand business, do you own your own business or do you work for someone else?
> 
> You have no idea what you are talking about, the guy took longer on the jobsite than *I* thought it would, *he naver gave me a time frame for how long he thought it would take him*, he bid the job to haul away the masonry materials, he was a legal subcontractor who bid the job lump sum, not by the day, hour or load.
> 
> ...


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

wireless said:


> For easier reading (and my lack of HTML expertise) my responses are in red.


I could have paid the guy his asking price, and kept the difference, he bid the job and it took longer than I expected.

For what I gave him extra, I could have rented a bobcat for a week.

I could have paid someone else in my area to do what I gave the guy in tip money.

the sub contractor who did the hauling was happy I paid him 25% above and beyond what was contracted for, his guy was happy with the tip I gave him.

The sub contractor could have refused to send his guy out, or if he thought he was being taken advantage of charged me to go out to my property.

The only one complaining is you.

I am always fair with my subs and it is they who usually end up not giving anything back when there is less work done, yet they are quick to bill for any extra, especially the electricians.

I bet you are the type of sub who is always looking how to get over on a GC, because we are such crooks.

I am glad you and the other subs have opened my eyes, I will from now on follow the letter of the contract, and when there is something deleted, make sure I get properly credited for it, and next time a guys crews up and bids too low, I will hire him and just pocket the extra money, and start saving it to buy a bigger boat.

I could probably get a new boat within a year.:thumbsup:


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## Mr. Wms (Jan 5, 2007)

I would have to charge the GC a little more due to late payments which
We are good for. But if the GC can pay upon completion like the homeowner then I charge the same as I charge the homeowner.


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