# Superior walls installs



## Swncinstaller

Hey I been installing superior walls wanted to share some pics


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## UpNorth

Polk county?

How competitive is it with poured walls?


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## Chris Johnson

So what is the labor factor on these walls?

I'm always looking to see the comparisons to what I do. How about material costs, all in?


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## TimNJ

What's the actual thickness of the wall? Subtract out the foam thickness. The wall part not the stud part.


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## UpNorth

Pretty much everything you might want to know about Superior Walls can be found at their website.

The product is a blend of panelization and precast concrete technologies, brought to the single-family residential house construction niche. Rigid foam board, rollformed steel stud sections, and steel-reinforced precast concrete are all integrated into this bolt-together package that installs in just hours at the jobsite. The prep is a bed of crushed gravel on undisturbed soil, everything engineered to handle building loads, per site conditions. No spread footings are used under the walls, which have top and bottom bearing flanges of about ten inches width.


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## Swncinstaller

UpNorth said:


> Polk county?
> 
> How competitive is it with poured walls?


they are very comparabe and alot stronger


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## Swncinstaller

lots of pics here http://www.facebook.com/pages/Superior-Walls-of-North-Carolina/189886407733606


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## Swncinstaller

2-1/2" DOW® extruded polystyrene insulation
1" foam insulated concrete studs
1" foam insulation on bond beam
Access holes for ease in wiring and plumbing
Galvanized steel stud facing ready for drywall finishing
Horizontal steel rebar inside top and bottom beams
Steel reinforced top bond beam
Vertical steel rebar (inside each stud)
1-3/4" concrete face shell
10-1/4" overall wall thickness


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## concretemasonry

The superior wall is also inferior when it comes to strength and stability of the wall as built. This in spite of the glossy and impressive advertising.

The strength of the concrete used may or may not be higher than the other concrete systems. This is a very minor item when it comes to wall strength becasue the stength and stability of a wall depends on many different components AND the way they are used or put together. Even concrete block can be over 8000 psi, but because of the structural efficiency, it is rarely needed even on loadbearing block buildings over 20 stories high using 6" thick walls.

Briefly, a superior wall is a bunch of relatively thin concrete panels that are connected initially with bolts that can loosen and assembled on a gravel base, so there is minimum continuity and stability compared to a poured concrete or block built and positively attached to a continuous footing with all side positively connected.

It is similar to the old wood basement concept where treated wood panels were set on a gravel base that has been shown to be a failed concept.


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## UpNorth

"The superior wall is also inferior when it comes to strength and stability of the wall as built."

Please back up your statement with facts. Do you have test data? Failure analysis? I'm a structural engineer, have used Superior Walls, and am anxiously awaiting your details. Don't be afraid to produce reams and reams of data. We've plenty of space here to discuss this.


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## concretemasonry

Up north -

I am also a retired structural engineer and have done extensive forensic , failure analysis in similar fields after working in facilities design, construction of utilities and finally 40 years of experience in residential foundation and soil problems. Also a voting member of for 15 years of ASTM after waiting for 15 years to be allowed to vote, an ACI member, a founding member of the The Masonry Society (TMS) and a local ACI chapter. During that period, I received 3 honorary Doctors Degrees and spoken at numerous international concrete seminars regarding design, construction failures/problems. - You do not want to challenge international engineers unless you are absolutely correct.

The comments made were regarding the engineering, construction and failures observed for a specific system that have personally been observed. This forum is not for details on specific projects since no two are alike and framed documents on the wall are really meaningless and boring to others without details presented.

Every project is different and every failure has individual problems regarding the preliminary conditions and failure modes, but there are some common threads and incompatibility with basic engineering concepts and the resulting stresses of components and deformations that affect the load distribution and resulting performance.


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## TimNJ

concretemasonry said:


> Up north -
> 
> 
> Every project is different and every failure has individual problems regarding the preliminary conditions and failure modes, but there are some common threads and incompatibility with basic engineering concepts and the resulting stresses of components and deformations that affect the load distribution and resulting performance.


It goes without saying that you can failures related to improper preperation/installation in any system whether it is block, poured or prefab. I don't see how the through bolts can loosen any more than the anchor bolts on my mud sills can loosen.

I would like info on the structural failure of the panels themselves.
I suppose if you receive panels made from weak mixes that would be a problem, but would leave the superior wide open for a liability suit.


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## Swncinstaller

Well I am not an engineer but I have been doing foundations all my life including pored in place and block and have installed hundreds of superior wall systems . This system when installed properly is by far the best and most efficient way to build in my opinion . Our company has installed more than ten thousand systems in our area.


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## Swncinstaller

TimNJ said:


> It goes without saying that you can failures related to improper preperation/installation in any system whether it is block, poured or prefab. I don't see how the through bolts can loosen any more than the anchor bolts on my mud sills can loosen.


The sealant used is more than likely going to still keep panels secure if the bolts ever loosened.


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## concretemasonry

Tim -

I never said that the individual wall panels would fail and referred to the superior panels as have good strength, since making high strength concrete in a plant is like "shooting fish in a barrel". The strength of the concrete in a panel is not a problem.

I have a problem with the long term structural performance of a system that is used.

The concept is something I have seen for many years in Eastern Europe and Russia (mainly). The joints and connections are critical as they age and a building is subjected to weather and soil movements. Relying on a sealant in a structure as a structural back-up in case of other problems that always occur in the life of a structure is a feeble point.

A concrete or concrete block wall is structural element built in place (and grossly over-designed for vertical load) that acts a very steep deep beam (about 8' deep). It has continuity which is beneficial in all construction.. Even a 4" thick block wall has more strength than a 2x4 wall.

The superior systems is a series of dominoes that are lined up and bolted together on a flexible foundation (rock , which does not really compact). It is really not rigid, even when built and any further weathering and movement compounds the problem.

I just see the problems a while after the contractor is paid and gone and the guarantee lines get blurred, leaving the owner helpless. Do you know how many precast apartment buildings are ready to collapse, even with welded connections between panels because the sealant in the joints was not periodically maintained or a replaced to prevent rusting, deterioration and freeze-thaw problems in a exposed environment?


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## SpringtimeHomes

Superior Walls are overtaking traditional foundations in our area for many good reasons. They have a long track record, are engineer approved, and have better warranties than block or poured walls.

They use less materials, labor and have built in continuous insulation. Just like with any foundation, a good install requires careful preparation and any problems that result would probably plaugue a regular foundation as well. 

Traditional foundations fail all the time. Without documented failure rates, Superior wall bashing doesnt mean that much to me. I wish the rest of the house could go together as smoothly as the Superior Walls have on the projects 'Ive been a part of.


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## fjn

*superior walls*

One of the things i do know about SUPERIOR WALLS is that it was a franchise when a guy i new back in the late 90s asked me to ride out to Pa. to investigate him buying a dealership. He was a gunsmith. They were willing to sell it to him!


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## jb4211

UpNorth said:


> "The superior wall is also inferior when it comes to strength and stability of the wall as built."
> 
> Please back up your statement with facts. Do you have test data? Failure analysis? I'm a structural engineer, have used Superior Walls, and am anxiously awaiting your details. Don't be afraid to produce reams and reams of data. We've plenty of space here to discuss this.


Damn, North. I can tell you're still on the fence about these wall, huh? :laughing::laughing:


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## Dirtywhiteboy

Hey Brutus I've got plenty of peanuts and beer


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## TimNJ

fjn said:


> One of the things i do know about SUPERIOR WALLS is that it was a franchise when a guy i new back in the late 90s asked me to ride out to Pa. to investigate him buying a dealership. He was a gunsmith. They were willing to sell it to him!


Anybody will sell to anybody. Money talks.

I did my foundation with ICF's back around '92. Then the only game in town was ICE Block and I think two others. I went with ICE and had to buy from Ohio if my memory is working. The guy I contacted back then wanted me to become a dealer. They didn't even had premade corners, you had to cut your own.
Point being when you have a new product you have to start somewhere and it takes money to get things going. So, if you are willing to invest who cares what you do for a job.


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## Fortisteel

*Engineer Manager*

Looks interesting I am using a product called Fortisteel www.fortisteel.net they are metal stud walls with Polystyrene sandwiched between the studs as a thermal barrier. 1" thick provides from R-3.8 to R-5.0 depending on the mix density.

Walls can be designed to handle varying structural loads and are installed in minutes with no cranes. They are all bolted together and the outer surface can be any product brick, NCMB, wood, stone etc.

Two experience laborers can install 600 LF of wall in one day. The product is also used as a roofing panel.

Can be manufactured to any thickness most common is 4" and 6" walls.


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## GeorgeCF99

*No way!*



Swncinstaller said:


> they are very comparabe and alot stronger


There is no way that Superior Walls are stronger or even as strong as a cast in place wall. You cannot compare a 1 3/4" concrete faced wall with a steel reinforced concrete stud every 24" to a 8" solid concrete wall with reinforcement every 24" or even 36". I would never trust a "one size fits all" design when every other engineered wall is engineered for particular heights and backfills. 
Also, anyone who says that 5,000 psi is "waterproof" does not know about concrete. Concrete walls are simply giant hardened sponges. If I were to even consider using Superior Walls, I would add a primer, adhered bituthene membrane, and drainage mat against the surface of the wall and footing.
They are much cheaper than poured walls. There are no shortcuts for good, and like most things, you get what you pay for.


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## naptown CR

This seems to be dividing into 2 camps. Those who use and like Superior walls and those who compete against them with more traditional methods. 
I agree with additional waterproofing being used as sealants do tend to break down after a while. However this is more prevalent above ground where UV can get to the sealant.


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## wallmaxx

what about ICF?

I'm kinda partial to that way.


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## Wcceric

Put me down for superior walls! We built two homes within 6 months of each other. The one was my parents and they used superior, the other a customers and it was poured. The superior was fine until the day they sold never a leak or crack and the home did not settle in any areas. Second home on the poured walls cracked and leaked within a year. I understand the statement that concrete is stronger in poured walls BUT that only stands true if all the walls are built exactly the same and to perfection and good luck with that in the field on a one day pour with 10 guys and concrete trucks lined up and weather issues. The manufactured walls are engineered to each job and are built in a controlled environment. An easy comparision is build me a concrete stairway outside and build me one in a ware house which one would have greater temperature control?


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## GeorgeCF99

That's why you have slump tests and break tests. If you are the GC on the job, you should be responsible in checking reinforcement spacing and forming. I can tell you that no job will be perfect, and I can also tell you that no concrete wall will be waterproof. However, that's why you don't just use a spray on barrier. I would always go with a membrane and drainage mat. I think too many people are putting faith in the concrete aspect of this, but the real strength to the wall in these situations is the reinforcement. On the superior wall system I just don't see it. You really want 2" of concrete facing for the reinforcement. I don't know how they get to that in such a thin wall w/ thin studs. For a 10' wall with 10' of backfill, how would they get the engineering is #6 every 13" on an 8" wall. How in the world would they run with that?


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## FramingPro

I am not convinced.. why use this over ICF..
No need for a crane, higher r value, zero air transfer, nothing will beat the strength of poured concrete wall...
Besides with those steel framed walls you are gonna have definite thermal bridging.


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## Warren

I have framed two homes that had Superior Wall foundations. Both had zero issues. The speed of installation is a benefit, as is the interior being ready for drywall. I have not worked on an ICF foundation yet. I have heard good things there as well.


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## FramingPro

My question remains unanswered... why this over ICF?
There are only a few plants, so trucking it around the country adds to costs..if you are local then yea, but if not... ICF is readily available almost anywhere.


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## Brutus

FramingPro said:


> I am not convinced.. why use this over ICF..
> No need for a crane, higher r value, zero air transfer, nothing will beat the strength of poured concrete wall...
> Besides with those steel framed walls you are gonna have definite thermal bridging.


I'm pretty sure the foam counteracts the thermal bridging.


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## FramingPro

Brutus said:


> I'm pretty sure the foam counteracts the thermal bridging.


Well still, with steel it is always gonna be a issue.


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## Brutus

With anything there is a possibility of thermal bridging. But yes, with steel it can be a bigger issue, you have to isolate it for maximum success with the system you are building with.


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## FramingPro

Brutus said:


> With anything there is a possibility of thermal bridging. But yes, with steel it can be a bigger issue, you have to isolate it for maximum success with the system you are building with.


Steel conducts more then foam, plastic or wood. :whistling


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## GCTony

I personally would never use them for the following reasons:

1) the countless complaints found on the net
2) A 15 year warentee (concrete is forever)
3) The talk of the ICC to discuss significant changes to the code regarding prefab foundations in their annual meeting this year.
4) Stronger than reinforced concrete. HAHAHAHAHA. One needs to look at the methods of testing cast in place vs. prefab. and what levels they test them to. 
5) Why does a company have to try so hard to convince people their product is so good.
6) They will sell a franchise to anyone. It looks to me the installation process is extreamly important so experince and training are very important.
7) Not resting on a footing, tied down, locked in with concrete on the inside and out makes no sense.

I just seems to be another product to allow for having cheap "disposable" houses. Will these houses be around 100 or 150 years from now?


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