# Horrible painting



## #1 Handyman (Aug 2, 2009)

I want to start by saying that I take a lot of pride in my work and always strive to improve it. As a true handyman I am responsible for a lot of trades and I am a sponge for knowledge.

I recently cut a hole through a exterior wall to installed a new header and door.

I picked up some Valspar paint at Lowes to match existing interior trim.

When painting on first coat the paint seamed not to flow smoothly.


Come the second coat (four hours drying it was even dried on the interior corners of the raised panels) it was impossible. I was forced to put it on thicker to cover without leaving bear spots. When I came back it was horrible with runs and brush marks.

Could it be because the door was colder than the room being a exterior door?

The Paint was new.
I had a 3"brush
I am a quick painter 

How could I avoid this in the future?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I had that happen many many years ago. Painted my kitchen with Behr. When I came back a few hours late the paint had runs, drips, was still super tacky and it had even slide down the wall in a few places. 

Problem that I have with your scenario is when you put on a second coat after you knew the first want right. You can top bad with bad and expect a good result. 

You probably should scrape, sand, prime and repaint.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Need more info, what was the substrate, what was the base, color and sheen what was the temp? Exterior paint I presume?

I never 2nd coat trim work on the same day because the 1st coat really isn't dry enough for an optimal finish.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Depends on what the manufacturer recommends for recoat.


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## #1 Handyman (Aug 2, 2009)

The first coat did not apply as smooth as I am used to but for first coat it wasn't bad enough to raise eyebrows.
You are right on having to strip sand and start again.

Door was fiberglass (new) with factory white prime.
Trim was wood, and factory white primed.
Top coat is SG, light beige color.
Room was, I am guessing, about 68 deg inside,outside temp was Mid forties.
All painting is interior with interior paint.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

1) It's fiberglass - no moisture from the paint is going to move into it like it will on drywall and wood.

2) Room temp matters, but humidity and surface temp is also important. There's no way I can guess what this was. 

Best guess is you needed to let the first coat dry longer, and put the second coat on thinner, even if you have to roll it out to get coverage.

I don't know about your specific paint, but a lot of paints now are a race between consolidation and drying. If it consolidates faster than it dries, it's going to be prone to running / sagging.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Sounds like bad batch of paint. Maybe should have added a little flotrol or even water to get it to flow better.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

#1 Handyman said:


> The Paint was new.
> I had a 3"brush
> I am a quick painter
> 
> How could I avoid this in the future?


Roll it on thin and let it cure longer. If the door surface is cold, set up lights / fan / heater to warm it and help speed cure.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

#1 Handyman said:


> The Paint was new.
> *I had a 3"brush*
> I am a quick painter
> 
> How could I avoid this in the future?





hdavis said:


> *Roll it on thin and let it cure longer.* If the door surface is cold, set up lights / fan / heater to warm it and help speed cure.


yup.
I can't imagine painting a door with today's paints using a brush.


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## Bradcon (Sep 9, 2015)

I had a fiberglass door this summer that we brushed on two coats and it looked terrible.
I mean terrible. I finally made my brother sand it and I sprayed it with the same paint and it looked great. I swore then and there to never brush another door.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Bradcon said:


> I had a fiberglass door this summer that we brushed on two coats and it looked terrible.
> I mean terrible. I finally made my brother sand it and I sprayed it with the same paint and it looked great. I swore then and there to never brush another door.


Exactly. I have brushes for cutting in walls. The sprayer is for trim and doors.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Now this is a horrible painting.

Andy.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Now this is a horrible painting.
> 
> Andy.



Looks like the mat at the local paint store's mixing station...:laughing:


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I have had mixed results brushing doors. New fiberglass seems to need at least 5 coats or more if it isn't white. I prefer to brush old prepainted doors. I can usually brush one out as fast as I can roll, or I at least feel I am getting better coverage with a brush.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

have to agree brushes and modern paint don't mix on smooth surfaces.

I know an older lady (good friends) who wants new base trim.......she is picky and says NO BRUSH MARKS, I always tell her good luck with that. I know I'm not that good of a painter. we did a jaccuzi tub and I used a smooth roller and she didnt like the "texture" LoL


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

As stated it's nearly impossible to get a decent finish with a brush on a smooth door with most latex paints. The primer could have caused the paint to drag. And as I said the 1st coat wasn't dry enough to apply a 2nd coat, it would have applied much smoother if you allow it dry 24 hours.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

If I am painting a door and for whatever reason I can't spray I use a foam roller. I can get a pretty good finish from this method, but it takes patience and a light hand.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> If I am painting a door and for whatever reason I can't spray I use a foam roller. I can get a pretty good finish from this method, but it takes patience and a light hand.


I can't stand foam rollers I use these they're more like 3/16" than 1/4"http://www.woosterbrush.com/other-tools/minirollers-trimmers/jumbo-koter-red-feather/


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

avenge said:


> I can't stand foam rollers I use these they're more like 3/16" than 1/4"http://www.woosterbrush.com/other-tools/minirollers-trimmers/jumbo-koter-red-feather/


Yup, that's them. I just unpacked the truck this AM, and was gonna take a pic of a *6" on the handle* so others would comment - it's all I've ever used.

Yes, I know spray is smoother - if the customer needs that - then I'm not your guy.

I'm on my last "pinkie" and the nap is down to maybe an 1/8" and it still works slick as snot on acrylic satin & semi.


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

Brushing out doors is an art and takes skill and knowledge to achieve a nice finish, especially exterior. I'm not saying you can ever stop brush marks but rather getting it to an acceptable point. Choosing the right paint is a start.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

avenge said:


> I can't stand foam rollers I use these they're more like 3/16" than 1/4"http://www.woosterbrush.com/other-tools/minirollers-trimmers/jumbo-koter-red-feather/


It's not easy to use, but the finish is the closet you can get to a sprayed finish.

Here's how I do it.

1) If it's a paneled door, I brush the panels and then back roll. Take the roller around the raised panel and then go over the panel. Roll with the length of the door.

2) Roll the middle stiles first, being careful to feather as you over roll to the rails.

3) Then roll the rails starting at the top and working your way to the bottom.

4) Lastly roll the outer stiles.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Here's an old door I had to paint last winter. No where to spray so I rolled it.


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## #1 Handyman (Aug 2, 2009)

I see three possible causes.

My solutions



Increase temp of door and room
Thin paint a tad w/water
Increase humidity with humidifier

Looking at the paint I noticed that the sales person slipped in paint with a primer included. (something i didn't want)


I have often painted doors with a brush. It is important to brush the stiles and rails in the appropriate direction. Doing this generally enhance the mock wood grain in the door and I've had no problems doing this in the past, provided the paint flows and levels well.

The pinkie rollers sound interesting. I will check them out.

Thanks for all your past painting observations.


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Here's an old door I had to paint last winter. No where to spray so I rolled it.
> 
> View attachment 250881


 Not to be overly critical but I could have done better brushing. I can see the roller stipple not to mention there's a lot of foreign material in the paint. Like I said it's a skill and knowledge.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

carzie said:


> Not to be overly critical but I could have done better brushing. I can see the roller stipple not to mention there's a lot of foreign material in the paint. Like I said it's a skill and knowledge.


No it was meant to be overly critical, but if I cared what someone thought off of a single angle of a single photo I wouldn't have posted it. It's the nature of these forums.

It was a door that had previously been painted, I think twice. It's in my own home and the only example I have. Maybe not the best, but the only one I had. If you knew me or have actually taken the time to look at my other work you would know better.

The stipple will be there with any roller, but with the foam it's the closest to spraying. Sorry, but I disagree that your brush strokes would look better than my stiple. Remember you are looking at a single angle of a single photo. Things look much different in person. I think brush strokes look like amateur hour.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

I'm more curious why a Handyman is cutting open a wall & installing a header & a door....


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Here's a job that we did in the Spring. Whole house paint. Doors came out beautiful.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Here's a job that we did in the Spring. Whole house paint. Doors came out beautiful.
> 
> View attachment 250985


Spray or brush/roll doors?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

griz said:


> Spray or brush/roll doors?


All rolled with the foam roller using my above described method. I had no where to spray. It was still pretty cold outside and I have no shop.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

#1 Handyman said:


> I see three possible causes.
> 
> My solutions
> 
> ...


If any of those 3 would have helped the "horrible" paint job it would have been #2. it's a fiberglass door not metal so it's not like it was too cold except for drying as I've said already. Why would you want warmer temps with an already quick to tack up latex? If I was brushing a smooth door I want lower temps not higher.

What's primer in paint have to with it? If you wanted a top quality job you should started with something other than Valspar.

And if anyone brushes a door in any other direction than the wood grain would run, put the lid back on the can and go do something else.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

griz said:


> I'm more curious why a Handyman is cutting open a wall & installing a header & a door....


So he can paint it.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

avenge said:


> So he can paint it.


That didn't work out so well....

Hate to think about the Carpenter work....:whistling


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## #1 Handyman (Aug 2, 2009)

The purpose of the header and door is to give outside access to a bedroom so it can be listed on air b&b as a room with private entrance for rent. The entrance is through a already existing porch.
I also am adding a door in a hallway that would isolate this bedroom with its private bathroom from the rest of the house.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> All rolled with the foam roller using my above described method. I had no where to spray. It was still pretty cold outside and I have no shop.


Couldn't set up and spray in that room?


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## #1 Handyman (Aug 2, 2009)

I guess I was confused what was meant by consolidation in davis's statement. Consolidating the primer and paint? What is meant by consolidation here?




hdavis said:


> 1)
> I don't know about your specific paint, but a lot of paints now are a race between consolidation and drying. If it consolidates faster than it dries, it's going to be prone to running / sagging.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

#1 Handyman said:


> I guess I was confused what was meant by consolidation in davis's statement. Consolidating the primer and paint? What is meant by consolidation here?


Forming the porous film that eventually cures into a hard film. That's what's behind the chunks that will form in some of the paint and primer in one products right in the can. It's right on the edge of consolidation.


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> No it was meant to be overly critical, but if I cared what someone thought off of a single angle of a single photo I wouldn't have posted it. It's the nature of these forums.
> 
> It was a door that had previously been painted, I think twice. It's in my own home and the only example I have. Maybe not the best, but the only one I had. If you knew me or have actually taken the time to look at my other work you would know better.
> 
> The stipple will be there with any roller, but with the foam it's the closest to spraying. Sorry, but I disagree that your brush strokes would look better than my stiple. Remember you are looking at a single angle of a single photo. Things look much different in person. I think brush strokes look like amateur hour.


 You have every right to disagree, as I knew you would. Bottom line is I know I do a better job brushing out a raised panel with mock grain then what you posted. Brush strokes looking like amateur hour... yes I agree...work on your skills.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

carzie said:


> You have every right to disagree, as I knew you would. Bottom line is I know I do a better job brushing out a raised panel with mock grain then what you posted. Brush strokes looking like amateur hour... yes I agree...work on your skills.


I had a couple of responses typed out, but I'll let you have your day.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> Couldn't set up and spray in that room?


If I could have I would have. No ventilation and everything was finished. I would have spent more time on prep than I did on rolling. We had them rolled in half a day.


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## #1 Handyman (Aug 2, 2009)

griz said:


> Hate to think about the Carpenter work....:whistling






The first pic is the front entrance.
The second pic is the hall door that was made from scratch.

I guess you can do soooo much better.
Or should I say your workers can.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

#1 Handyman said:


> The first pic is the front entrance.
> The second pic is the hall door that was made from scratch.
> 
> I guess you can do soooo much better.
> *Or should I say your workers can*.


Sorry hot shot, I've personally hung more frigging doors than you'll ever see....

As a handyman you have no business doing structural work,...

WTF, you couldn't even paint it....


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## #1 Handyman (Aug 2, 2009)

griz said:


> Sorry hot shot, I've personally hung more frigging doors than you'll ever see....
> 
> As a handyman you have no business doing structural work,...
> 
> WTF, you couldn't even paint it....


Does that mean you can do it better or does that just mean you have been doing it longer?

I don't see where this does anybody any good.

Good day!


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

We brush a fair percentage of doors. Doors have traditionally been brushed, and I much prefer that look to rolled. Homeowners seem to be OK with it too.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

#1 Handyman said:


> When painting on first coat the paint seamed not to flow smoothly.
> 
> 
> Come the second coat (four hours drying it was even dried on the interior corners of the raised panels) it was impossible. I was forced to put it on thicker to cover without leaving bear spots. When I came back it was horrible with runs and brush marks.
> ...


If it does not "flow" as expected ... stop and figure out why.

Second coat didn't "flow better than first, see above comment. What you describe is painting over a surface that has not cured properly. What did the directions say, specifically about recoating? What was the recommended brush? What did the 'pros' at Lowes say? It's a home owner friendly product from a box store, what have you used in the more pro supply lines for comparison? Hell, did you stir the paint?

If everything thing you say is as it should have been done - Don't use that paint again. Either you did something wrong, very wrong or it's bad paint.

Being really proud of workmanship is one thing. Being so proud of yourself not to think that maybe 'Griz' beyond really knows his chit. And you have problems with an apply and let dry process. Is kind of funny to me.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I prefer a brushed look even for trim. Of course, most work I do is either previously brushed, or matching old work.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Jmayspaint (Apr 20, 2014)

With all but the fastest drying paints, I like to roll and back brush them. Use a mini roller to apply the paint quickly, and stroke it out in the direction of the grain. With some practice this method can apply a thicker coat faster than brushing alone. And that seems to be the key to good flow. Works particularly well with Advance. 

Some of the newer low/0 VOC acrylics are hard to get to flow out because of reduced open time. Speed of application and minimum tooling seem to be the trick. There is just no time to play around with them. If you brush over an area more than two or three times it starts to gum up. Put it on and leave it alone works best. 

I know guys that do a fine job doing roll only. I just don't prefer the look myself with most paints.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

hdavis said:


> Forming the porous film that eventually cures into a hard film. That's what's behind the chunks that will form in some of the paint and primer in one products right in the can. It's right on the edge of consolidation.


Oh, "goes to tack". That's the problem I had to work out when going from oil to the low VOC acrylic. By the time I'd brushed in the moldings around a panel, any flat area hit was already going to tack, and telegraphing through when I rolled the flats.

If I tried doing the molded area as I went, then a few minutes later, there'd always be a corner or 2 that would want to weep out a drip or two, and it was already too late to pull it with a brush, or re-roll into the field.

So, the method is a modified version of what Rob does, using the pinkie roller. Cut in the panels, get all the door wet except the outer stiles, roll once more "with the grain" on rails and panels to where they meet the outer stiles, then those outer stiles last.

The foam roller is the cats meow for me on clear finishes - just never got it to work with paints on the vertical.

I won't say my rolling VOC acrylic is smooth as glass, but I'd be unhappy if you could look at it from an angle and say "yup, definitely done with a roller".


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> We brush a fair percentage of doors. Doors have traditionally been brushed, and I much prefer that look to rolled. Homeowners seem to be OK with it too.


Traditional around here as well.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

It was also traditional to brush walls.

Aint nobody got time for that.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I don't think that spraying doors is a new thing or that rare of a method used. My point was when you can't spray, a foam roller is a great alternative.

Personally, I don't like brush marks on my finish work, traditional or not. I have had many people over the years ask if we sprayed the doors that we rolled. I know guys like Carzie dismiss anything that deviates from his old dog tricks and techniques as the lack of skill and knowledge and I would wager that he would also dismiss satisfied customers in the same manner. But in the end, that is all that matters, is your customer happy with the end result.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

We spray if possible, brush otherwise. Spraying requires my involvement, brushing doesn't.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

The only time I roll and don't lay off doors is on the exterior side of smooth metal when I can't keep a wet edge. No not an optimal look but it beats terrible brush and lap marks. I brush interior doors all the time but you can't fiddle around, do it in the correct order very quickly. And don't attempt a 2nd coat until the following day.

Beats a badly done spray finish and good luck touching those up.


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

You would loose that wager, I strive for happy customers...that is my number 1 goal. I rarely brush out doors with a mock grain, except for the in lay and cutting around hinges. If I had 1 door to do I wouldn't break out a 4" roller to do it, I have enough skill and knowledge to brush it out while keeping a wet edge. I do brush out metal exterior doors that have no mock grain, IMO it looks funny having roller stipple on the flats and brush strokes in the in lays, around the glass and along the hinge side.

I've never and I mean never had a customer ask me to re do a door because of brush strokes or roller stipple.

I'm with avenge, I can't stand foam rollers, you spend more time dipping the roller and trying to move what little paint it holds around evenly. Mohair or micro fiber for 4" and 5-10mm 91/2" on doors with a mock grain.

Call me an old dog if you like but my techniques work and work well. As I've said in a previous thread, learn to use a brush...it is your friend.

One more point I know spraying is huge in the US not so much in Canada, except for spraying commercial or primers etc most is done via brush and roller. What spray work I do see is on cookie cutter sub divisions. So I guess we're a bunch of old dogs up here. 

I have also had customers comment my work looks sprayed even though all was done via brush and roller.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

carzie said:


> You would loose that wager, I strive for happy customers...that is my number 1 goal.
> 
> You didn't understand what I was saying. What I was saying is that if I say my customers like the result of rolling you would dismiss it by saying they don't have the skill or knowledge to know what looks good.
> 
> ...


Brush and *ROLLER*? :whistling


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I looked over CT and can't find a single picture of your work. Nor can I find a link to your website. At least I have the balls to post pics and to link both my website and my FB page which has all of my work.


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

Here ya go www.carseythepainter.com


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

carzie said:


> Here ya go www.carseythepainter.com


No pics.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Brush and *ROLLER*? :whistling


"
I have never seen someone brush bookshelves or wall units, they all get sprayed, no matter where you live. Fine furniture and furniture grade cabinets are not brushed, but sprayed, no matter what country you are in. Why? Because it looks better.
"

I've done tons of this with a brush. You can't get a better finish spraying than you can by hand, but you can do it a lot faster


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

hdavis said:


> "
> I have never seen someone brush bookshelves or wall units, they all get sprayed, no matter where you live. Fine furniture and furniture grade cabinets are not brushed, but sprayed, no matter what country you are in. Why? Because it looks better.
> "
> 
> I've done tons of this with a brush. You can't get a better finish spraying than you can by hand, but you can do it a lot faster


You can't get a better finish spraying than by brushing? I'll have to disagree.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Dents on those steel doors are a PITA:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

hdavis said:


> "
> I have never seen someone brush bookshelves or wall units, they all get sprayed, no matter where you live. Fine furniture and furniture grade cabinets are not brushed, but sprayed, no matter what country you are in. Why? Because it looks better.
> "
> 
> I've done tons of this with a brush. You can't get a better finish spraying than you can by hand, but you can do it a lot faster


So when you order painted cabinets, whether it be a vanity, linen cabinet, kitchen cabinets, bookshelves, you get them brushed? When you go to buy furniture you can get them with a brushed finish? I can't imagine what the painted vanities I order would look like brushed and not sprayed.

Spraying definitely gives a better finish. Eliminating cross strokes or even sheen and color variation with the different direction you have to brush the rails and stiles puts spraying ahead. You can get more even coverage and consistency. Not to mention it looks even and uniform.

The only thing faster about spraying is the application. Setting up and cleaning up doesn't speed up the process at all. In fact, in my experience, it's faster to brush with everything is factored in.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

carzie said:


> Here ya go www.carseythepainter.com


So you finished this TV unit with a brush?









BTW, there is some debris in the finish of that door. :whistling


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> You can't get a better finish spraying than by brushing? I'll have to disagree.


Absolutely. Fine furniture finishes don't just get brushed or sprayed and shipped out the door.


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> So you finished this TV unit with a brush?
> 
> View attachment 251137
> 
> ...


 Doors were sprayed rest with good ole brush and roller and only second coat on the door


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

blacktop said:


> no pics.


my bad!


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

I think when it comes to spray book cases etc on site, if I can get a gun and hose inside to spray the finish will come out better. If the opening isn't large enough to accommodate a gun and hose and all the moving about needed to spray all components properly with no sags, runs etc then brushing will result in a better finish. 

Pre finished I would go with spray over brush.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

carzie said:


> Doors were sprayed rest with good ole brush and roller and only second coat on the door


Why couldn't you use your superior brush skills on the doors?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

carzie said:


> I think when it comes to spray book cases etc on site, if I can get a gun and hose inside to spray the finish will come out better. If the opening isn't large enough to accommodate a gun and hose and all the moving about needed to spray all components properly with no sags, runs etc then brushing will result in a better finish.
> 
> Pre finished I would go with spray over brush.


So I am confused. Why would spraying a bookcase look better but spraying a door wouldn't?


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

When did I say that?


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I looked over CT and can't find a single picture of your work. Nor can I find a link to your website. At least I have the balls to post pics and to link both my website and my FB page which has all of my work.


I just looked....I still have my balls but no pics on CT or a website. :laughing:



SmallTownGuy said:


> Dents on those steel doors are a PITA:


Body putty


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

avenge said:


> Body putty


Never.

It's only a PITA, because EVERY steel door gets them. But no plastic Bondo stuff ever.

The reason you can see those spots in the pic, is because the filler was just applied and its still very wet.

What are there, something like a dozen dents - or more?!


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Now this is a horrible painting.
> 
> Andy.



Pollock?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

avenge said:


> I just looked....I still have my balls but no pics on CT or a website. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> Body putty


I know that some think everything is about them, but I clearly directed my comment at Crazie....er...Carzie. He decided to pic apart my work and make judgments based on one pic instead of getting to know me and my work. I don't hide it. It's right there in my sig line.

I went back and read the thread, you made no comments on my work. If you had, I would have said the same about you. I think guys are full of chit who pick apart someone's work when they haven't or won't post theirs or a link to their site. Put up or shut up.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Robie said:


> Pollock?


The fish? I didn't know fishies could paint.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I know that some think everything is about them, but I clearly directed my comment at Crazie....er...Carzie. He decided to pic apart my work and make judgments based on one pic instead of getting to know me and my work. I don't hide it. It's right there in my sig line.
> 
> I went back and read the thread, you made no comments on my work. If you had, I would have said the same about you. I think guys are full of chit who pick apart someone's work when they haven't or won't post theirs or a link to their site. Put up or shut up.



You know I was just messin with you? I pretty much don't comment on anyone's quality of work in pics good or bad. Personally I don't have anything to prove to anyone here on CT, I don't need to use pics for my business although I have them and I don't want or need a website.

I think the rolling,brushing spraying debate is more of a personal opinion, it doesn't make any of them a bad quality job due to the method of application.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

avenge said:


> You know I was just messin with you? I pretty much don't comment on anyone's quality of work in pics good or bad. Personally I don't have anything to prove to anyone here on CT, I don't need to use pics for my business although I have them and I don't want or need a website.
> 
> I think the rolling,brushing spraying debate is more of a personal opinion, it doesn't make any of them a bad quality job due to the method of application.


My response was a bit tongue and cheek.

I have a lot of respect for you and your work as well as your opinions. And I agree that it's all opinions, that's why I said as much as well as what really matters is if your customers are satisfied.


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## #1 Handyman (Aug 2, 2009)

Texas Wax said:


> If it does not "flow" as expected ... stop and figure out why.
> 
> Second coat didn't "flow better than first, see above comment. What you describe is painting over a surface that has not cured properly. What did the directions say, specifically about recoating? What was the recommended brush? What did the 'pros' at Lowes say? It's a home owner friendly product from a box store, what have you used in the more pro supply lines for comparison? Hell, did you stir the paint?
> 
> ...



For the record the paint can states " Allow 2 to 4 hour before recoating.

I stated "being proud of my workmanship" to show I am not a fly by nighter. I am a long way from being overly proud to where it affects my judgement.

I do though have a problem giving respect to a person when that person shows no respect towards me.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Robie said:


> Pollock?


Yes sir.

Andy.


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I know that some think everything is about them, but I clearly directed my comment at Crazie....er...Carzie. He decided to pic apart my work and make judgments based on one pic instead of getting to know me and my work. I don't hide it. It's right there in my sig line.
> 
> I went back and read the thread, you made no comments on my work. If you had, I would have said the same about you. I think guys are full of chit who pick apart someone's work when they haven't or won't post theirs or a link to their site. Put up or shut up.


 Sorry Rob but that was easy pickins, I did have my links up but as from a previous thread you know I was trying to dodge telemarketers. I didn't know how they were getting my number so I removed the links from here as a 1st attempt to determine where they were coming from. 

If I had of known it was a door in your home instead of a client's it would have made a difference. As far as brushing goes, yes I know you don't like brush marks but maybe just maybe some of us can brush out a fake grain door without brush marks. So when I say it takes skill and knowledge it's because it is what it is. So maybe just maybe it's not this old dog that's not willing to learn but maybe it's you.

I would start by recommending some good self leveling paints such as BM Impervo, BM Regal Select and SW Pro Classic...be careful with the Pro Classic, it tends to creep when applied a little too heavy. 2 1/2" sash fairly soft...Wooster is a good choice. Give it a try some time.

Forgot a couple...BM Advance, levels very nice,easy to work with but coverage isn't the best...Pro Classic Hybrid...levels nice but doesn't cover the best and once it starts to set you can't go back and dick with it so you have to hustle.


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## Jmayspaint (Apr 20, 2014)

carzie said:


> ...... maybe just maybe some of us can brush out a fake grain door without brush marks.... .



I think most painters could paint a door like that with a long haired cat and make it look pretty good 

Quite a forgiving substrate. Smooth metal or wood is a different story.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Jmayspaint said:


> I think most painters could paint a door like that with a long haired cat and make it look pretty good
> 
> Quite a forgiving substrate. Smooth metal or wood is a different story.


Agreed I actually think a brushed finish looks better on your run of the mill Masonite grained door. But I prefer to just use a whisk broom easier to rinse out than a cat. :laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

avenge said:


> Agreed I actually think a brushed finish looks better on your run of the mill Masonite grained door. But I prefer to just use a whisk broom easier to rinse out than a cat. :laughing:


Horse hair push broom.:thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

carzie said:


> As far as brushing goes, yes I know you don't like brush marks but maybe just maybe some of us can brush out a fake grain door without brush marks. So when I say it takes skill and knowledge it's because it is what it is. So maybe just maybe it's not this old dog that's not willing to learn but maybe it's you.


This is what you said on this very thread:

_"Brushing out doors is an art and takes skill and knowledge to achieve a nice finish, especially exterior. I'm not saying you can ever stop brush marks but rather getting it to an acceptable point. Choosing the right paint is a start."_


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

#1 Handyman said:


> For the record the paint can states " Allow 2 to 4 hour before recoating.
> 
> I stated "being proud of my workmanship" to show I am not a fly by nighter. I am a long way from being overly proud to where it affects my judgement.
> 
> I do though have a problem giving respect to a person when that person shows no respect towards me.



Dry times ... Sometimes they don't dry in those times. Really sounds like it behaved in manner that was not dry. Dunno -Chit happens, sue Lowes and valspar ?????? I'm sure you had to get the door painted, I understand that. However the best way to determine if the paint was actually dry in your situation was .... give it a night and see. How'd the repaint go? Try to duplicate the the sequence of events of site? No amount of Monday quarter backing will give you a definitive answer, imho. Need to do some testing to really know.

:whistling You realize everybody is really proud of their workmanship. Especially the fly by nighters. Handymen are a close second and few I've seen can carry their weight against experienced tradesman. Don't know you from Adam. Your profile has no website links and such to show you're actually anything you say you are.

Some one showing you respect? This is a contractors forum :laughing: If there's even a hint of BS, well you see how that works. Respect is: fill in the blank:thumbsup:


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm starting to realize where that guy the other week got the idea that we disparage handymen on site. Just sayin'.

As for this situation, it could happen to anyone. Then you throw the second coat on hoping it fixes it, which many times it does, but it doesn't. Then you realize you are screwed. Then you ask on here.

Doesn't seem to far out there to me.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

VinylHanger said:


> As for this situation, it could happen to anyone. Then you throw the second coat on hoping it fixes it, which many times it does, but it doesn't. Then you realize you are screwed. Then you ask on here.
> 
> Doesn't seem to far out there to me.


No not to anyone, an experienced painter would have realized pretty quickly if the 1st coat isn't applying as desired. It's likely the primer was causing it to drag, or the paint is crap thinning or Floetrol may have helped. And an experienced painter will also know when brushing and/or rolling if the paint isn't dry enough to apply a 2nd coat.

Regardless of what the stated recoat time is some eggshell, satin and semi gloss paints aren't dry enough till the following day for a 2nd coat unless you don't mind it looking like crap.


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## Jmayspaint (Apr 20, 2014)

avenge said:


> ...I actually think a brushed finish looks better on your run of the mill Masonite grained door...:



I do too. Then again I doubt most people can tell. A painters eye will pick out a rolled door right away, but unless it's done really poorly (nappy) I don't think the average person ever notices. The fake grain hides many sins.


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> This is what you said on this very thread:
> 
> _"Brushing out doors is an art and takes skill and knowledge to achieve a nice finish, especially exterior. I'm not saying you can ever stop brush marks but rather getting it to an acceptable point. Choosing the right paint is a start."_


 Sorry, I was initially thinking about an exterior door, raised panel with no grain for the brush strokes. In hind sight this can also be applied to interior with no grain. I should have specified that.

Fill your boots Rob, if you want to waste time and get a roller out and clean it for one mock grain door then it's your dime. I was only pointing out there is no need for it if you have a bit of skill.


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

I've used valspar once and never again. 

If I have to finish trim, doors, windows, or bookcases, I use Proclassic from Sherwin. 

I will spray it, because that is how I will get top notch results.

I figured out a long time ago that I am not the right person to brush any of those. That's why I have a helper who is awesome with his brush skills. If I lose him, I'll make sure it is something I can spray in place or at my shop. If that's not possible, I'll pass on the work. 

There is no one solution that fits everyone.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

carzie said:


> Sorry, I was initially thinking about an exterior door, raised panel with no grain for the brush strokes. In hind sight this can also be applied to interior with no grain. I should have specified that.
> 
> Fill your boots Rob, if you want to waste time and get a roller out and clean it for one mock grain door then it's your dime. I was only pointing out there is no need for it if you have a bit of skill.


You clean out your rollers? I usually just toss them. Maybe not lambswool, but pretty much anything else. I'll wrap them for a job, then toss.


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

VinylHanger said:


> You clean out your rollers? I usually just toss them. Maybe not lambswool, but pretty much anything else. I'll wrap them for a job, then toss.


 If it's oil they get tossed, if not they get washed.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

carzie said:


> Sorry, I was initially thinking about an exterior door, raised panel with no grain for the brush strokes. In hind sight this can also be applied to interior with no grain. I should have specified that.
> 
> Fill your boots Rob, if you want to waste time and get a roller out and clean it for one mock grain door then it's your dime. I was only pointing out there is no need for it if you have a bit of skill.


I guess I am stumped by this mock grain door you speak of. Last time I look pine wasn't mock anything.

I am also baffled by your insistence that it is a waste of time. I can roll the door much faster than you could ever brush it, and it gives a nicer finish, at least closer to a spray than brushing does. My brush skills are fantastic, but I chose to use my time wisely and efficiently.

The continual attack of my skill level makes me laugh every time. You are like every old timer I have come across when faced with something that is done differently than you have done for decades, they run to the tired old conclusion that I must not know or have the skill to do it your way. Like I said, I like the look better. Why? Because it looks closer to a sprayed finish.

I guess in the end I could say that you hate foam rollers because you don't have the skill to use one, but that wouldn't be fair. I just don't think you like the look or how the function, and that's okay.

But if you continue down the road of insulting a fellow contractor solely based on the fact that you don't like the method they use as a personal preference, I'll have to assume that the insults are just your way of making yourself feel superior. Fact is, you haven't seen anything that I have brushed, nor seen me brush anything, so how could you possibly know anything about my brush skills?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

VinylHanger said:


> You clean out your rollers? I usually just toss them. Maybe not lambswool, but pretty much anything else. I'll wrap them for a job, then toss.


What's a good roller cost, $3?. I'm not spending 5 minutes washing a $3 roller. And then it's never the same after the wash. I know, I know, someone will tell me it's my lack of roller washing skills that I don't wash them, but again, it's just plain economics. I could buy 2 rollers for the time I spent washing the one.

Same goes with buckets as I tile. If there is a hint that I will spend more than a few minutes cleaning it, out it goes. It becomes the next trash bucket or added to the stack of debris buckets for demo.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

I have switched to the Wooster Cirrus and Polar Bear about the easiest fastest roller cover to clean.


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## Jmayspaint (Apr 20, 2014)

I will wash out microfiber mini rollers, several times in fact. Reason is they actually get better after a wash or two. Provided you get them completely clean. Microfiber rollers don't shed fibers like woven naps do. When they're new you might get a big piece of fiber or two coming off in the paint, but after a wash or just a spin out, they are shed free. That's a big deal to me, especially if I'm using them for trim work. If I have a chance I'll spin out new ones with a hose before use. 

Never really liked foam rollers for application, but I will use them occasionally to 'back roll. I have a hard time getting a thick enough coat on with a foam roller, so if I want that texture I'll apply the material with a microfiber and tip it off with a foam. Works great with some materials, not so much with others.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jmayspaint said:


> I will wash out microfiber mini rollers, several times in fact. Reason is they actually get better after a wash or two. Provided you get them completely clean. Microfiber rollers don't shed fibers like woven naps do. When they're new you might get a big piece of fiber or two coming off in the paint, but after a wash or just a spin out, they are shed free. That's a big deal to me, especially if I'm using them for trim work. If I have a chance I'll spin out new ones with a hose before use.
> 
> Never really liked foam rollers for application, but I will use them occasionally to 'back roll. I have a hard time getting a thick enough coat on with a foam roller, so if I want that texture I'll apply the material with a microfiber and tip it off with a foam. Works great with some materials, not so much with others.


I agree about the wizzy rollers. I wash them several times. They are quick and easy to clean and they are definitely better after a wash.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Jmayspaint said:


> I will wash out microfiber mini rollers, several times in fact. Reason is they actually get better after a wash or two. Provided you get them completely clean. Microfiber rollers don't shed fibers like woven naps do. When they're new you might get a big piece of fiber or two coming off in the paint, but after a wash or just a spin out, they are shed free. That's a big deal to me, especially if I'm using them for trim work. If I have a chance I'll spin out new ones with a hose before use.
> 
> Never really liked foam rollers for application, but I will use them occasionally to 'back roll. I have a hard time getting a thick enough coat on with a foam roller, so if I want that texture I'll apply the material with a microfiber and tip it off with a foam. Works great with some materials, not so much with others.


Not pertaining to mini rollers but I've had just the opposite experience with microfiber I haven't used one I didn't hate. The 2 covers I posted are woven and I've never had any issues with them I think they're fantastic.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

VinylHanger said:


> You clean out your rollers? I usually just toss them. Maybe not lambswool, but pretty much anything else. I'll wrap them for a job, then toss.


Same here. It think a few have offered to take them. I do clean (most) brushes, though.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I have some cut down roller covers that I've tapered to work with a specific paint. I don't throw these out - they get cleaned, but they're 12" and larger.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Foam rollers are a great way to get an oil based finish on a smooth exterior door. Run a hair dryer (no heat) to pop the bubbles that form.


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

I tried painting a door once. 


I shouldn't be allowed to paint.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Each time I go to C.T., I see that title, click on it in order to see the horrible painting, and am disappointed to find some thread about painting doors. It's possible that this says more about me than about the title.


Yes. Darn ordinary I'd say.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

Tom Struble said:


> ..i wanna work with Travis and his Dad..


:laughing:

Because I buy stuff at 30% off...?


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## #1 Handyman (Aug 2, 2009)

I have given up on the battle of defending myself.
Those interested the door came out fine. I set it on saw horses. Used a sharp wood chisel to shaved any drips off. Used a orbital sander and removed any sagging down to smooth and then repainted with the same paint spiked with floetrol. I forever will stay away from Valspar. Back to Benjamin Moor.

You probably know this already but maybe not.
On cleaning rollers I find that I can store them up to a week wrapped in a grocery shopping bag. Spin the roller, tighten the bag. When I get back to the shop I scrape the paint off. Take the roller out back and spin it with a water hose. This leaves the rollers nice and fluffy and dry for next use. Make sure your grocery bag has no pin holes in it.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

#1 Handyman said:


> I have given up on the battle of defending myself.
> Those interested the door came out fine. I set it on saw horses. Used a sharp wood chisel to shaved any drips off. Used a orbital sander and removed any sagging down to smooth and then repainted with the same paint spiked with floetrol. I forever will stay away from Valspar. Back to Benjamin Moor.
> 
> You probably know this already but maybe not.
> On cleaning rollers I find that I can store them up to a week wrapped in a grocery shopping bag. Spin the roller, tighten the bag. When I get back to the shop I scrape the paint off. Take the roller out back and spin it with a water hose. This leaves the rollers nice and fluffy and dry for next use. Make sure your grocery bag has no pin holes in it.


You can store them a bit longer in the frig.

I've cleaned many rollers with that hose method, still can't justify the time it takes to do all of that when a roller is $3 to replace.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You can store them a bit longer in the frig.
> 
> I've cleaned many rollers with that hose method, still can't justify the time it takes to do all of that when a roller is $3 to replace.


We very rarely clean a roller. Use it and throw it away. Wrap in plastic when you go to lunch.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

If you're buying 5 gal buckets of paint, you can just leave the roller covers in the bucket with the unused paint - don't clean them at all. It'll keep a LONG time that way.

You can also make up PVC pipe wet storage for individual covers, but I don't do that - it's just one more thing to drag around and keep up with.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Rollers will keep in gallon freezer bags for quite a while.


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

Don't store oil laced rollers in the fridge. Did that that many years ago when I was doing sub division work. 

Had about 5 different colors of solid stain I used all the time, wrapped them in bags and threw them in the freezer. Lost about $300 in beef


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

hdavis said:


> If you're buying 5 gal buckets of paint, you can just leave the roller covers in the bucket with the unused paint - don't clean them at all. It'll keep a LONG time that way.
> 
> You can also make up PVC pipe wet storage for individual covers, but I don't do that - it's just one more thing to drag around and keep up with.


One thing I hate more than 5's is finding a roller cover in a 5.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

avenge said:


> One thing I hate more than 5's is finding a roller cover in a 5.


I think you have turned this thread into "Things I Hate 2" or "Things I Hate in the Paint Trade"


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I think you have turned this thread into "Things I Hate 2" or "Things I Hate in the Paint Trade"


I used to love the paint trade now I hate it. If I started a "Things I Hate 2" thread I'm afraid it would be never ending.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

avenge said:


> One thing I hate more than 5's is finding a roller cover in a 5.


LOL, at least it's safer than opening a mud bucket.:laughing:


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

hdavis said:


> LOL, at least it's safer than opening a mud bucket.:laughing:


I was on a fire job went to get more Kilz for my cutting pot, opened the lid and someone pooped in it.


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

avenge said:


> I was on a fire job went to get more Kilz for my cutting pot, opened the lid and someone pooped in it.


Well, if you can't polish it, paint it!


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

hdavis said:


> LOL, at least it's safer than opening a mud bucket.:laughing:


Once a 5 gal bucket of anything leaves my chain of custody I have zero trust for the contents.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

avenge said:


> I was on a fire job went to get more Kilz for my cutting pot, opened the lid and someone pooped in it.


Sorry bout that dude...:whistling


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Yuck.


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## MarcoPollo (Dec 6, 2014)

What's with the hate on Valspar? Maybe I'm just dumb but I honestly think that there are times when BM or SW or the like makes sense and others its just overpaying.

For example my go to colour for trim on all jobs unless a client asks specifically is CC-10 Aura.

But I use Valspar for a basic wall cut and roll a LOT without issues. Maybe I'm a hack?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

MarcoPollo said:


> What's with the hate on Valspar?


Pick the paint brand, someone's going to hate it.


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## BRShomerepair (Jun 28, 2015)

#1 Handyman said:


> I have given up on the battle of defending myself.
> Those interested the door came out fine. I set it on saw horses. Used a sharp wood chisel to shaved any drips off. Used a orbital sander and removed any sagging down to smooth and then repainted with the same paint spiked with floetrol. I forever will stay away from Valspar. Back to Benjamin Moor.




Good that it worked out for you. Sometimes chit happens, whether bad luck or learning curve I find, just part of this work and having your own business. I think one big thing that separates the good from the bad is the fact that those who actually care will recognize when something could be improved upon, and make it so-even when it means lost time and $. Hopefully your customer is happy with everything.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm glad I missed this thread as it occurred. (Wish I missed it completely though.) Geez.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

MarkJames said:


> I'm glad I missed this thread as it occurred. (Wish I missed it completely though.) Geez.


I hear ya ''handy man ''


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

BRShomerepair said:


> Good that it worked out for you. Sometimes chit happens, whether bad luck or learning curve I find, just part of this work and having your own business. I think one big thing that separates the good from the bad is the fact that those who actually care will recognize when something could be improved upon, and make it so-even when it means lost time and $. Hopefully your customer is happy with everything.


I would put that a little differently..... Do it right, if you phuck it up, fix it. If you can't fix it you shouldn't have attempted to do it in the first place.


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