# Snapped a few CYA pics, just in case.



## HardWorks (Aug 6, 2014)

Lol. Doing estimates. Sure hope we don't get this one. Being occupied an all.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> He who blames the victim takes away blame from the guilty. He who chits on my floor needs to wipe it up and quite blaming it on my floor. I'm done! I'm on the job right now. :laughing:


Somewhere isn't there a thread about phone usage on the job? :whistling


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

KAP said:


> Lets put this another way... In Pinwheels situation, should the HO be responsible to take the time and expense to put protection down when they wanted to traverse the floors while he was doing his work?


YES. 
It is that simple.

when a home owner turns their property over to a contractor It becomes the contractors jobsite.
(these things need to be addressed to the owner at the out set so everyone is fore warned. even to the point where the owner signs something acknowledging that such a discussion took place)
It is inconvenient to have to skirt work in progress, even more so when there is a lag between steps. In my jobsites if someone walks on my tile during its cure, after i have posted no walking. that becomes their problem.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

I honestly don't understand why this even turned into a discussion.

It's a much Pineheels fault today as it would be if this happened five yrs from now.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

jb4211 said:


> I honestly don't understand why this even turned into a discussion.
> 
> It's a much Pineheels fault today as it would be if this happened five yrs from now.



Meaning it's not his fault?


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Meaning it's not his fault?


Correct, not his fault at all


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Pinwheel, did you determine who it was and were they back-charged?...


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

KAP said:


> Pinwheel, did you determine who it was and were they back-charged?...


It was all covered on the first page & recovered in post 71.

As the title said, they were CYA pics just incase there was staining that wouldn't come out. It turned out to be a non issue. Nothing more than usual sanding required.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

pinwheel said:


> It was all covered on the first page & recovered in post 71.
> 
> As the title said, they were CYA pics just incase there was staining that wouldn't come out. It turned out to be a non issue. Nothing more than usual sanding required.


Didn't finish reading post #71 so i missed the "on your dime"... 

So since the HO was the GC, why did they not receive a bill? 

My whole point is, there wouldn't be an issue in the first place if the floor was protected in anticipation of unforeseen circumstances... 

Relying on other subs to treat your work with the same respect you would treat theirs is just unrealistic IMHO... as you found out...

I'm sure it sanded out in short order but it bothered you enough to post about it...

I still can't wrap my head around you not protecting a work in progress especially for an extended period of time... it almost invites Murphy in the door...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

KAP said:


> Didn't finish reading post #71 so i missed the "on your dime"...
> 
> So since the HO was the GC, why did they not receive a bill?
> 
> ...


Well I can tell you all of my subs do and would learn to in a big hurry on any of my jobs, that they are responsible for thier chit stains. don't know who you have as subs but if it's unrealistic to expect them to respect others and clean up after themselves, you may want reevaluate who works for you. Cleaning up your own mess is a bare minimum requirement.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Kap, I installed siding on a house and then, two weeks later, the tree guy rips through several pieces while trimming a tree. Am I responsible for not protecting my work?

The story was hypothetical, yet relevant.

That would be the tree guys fault as in Pinwheels case it was the tile guys fault.

I fully understand your point. I do. 

But, protecting your work from inconsiderate azzholes is going beyond what should be needed and what most contractors that I know, included in their proposal. Because, if I have to protect my work from Slap Nuts I'm charging T&M for it.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

So we don't build new house's, we don't have lots of subs, we do most of the trades ourselves concerning, flooring, painting, carpentry, etc. We install wood floors but have a sub who finish's them for us. So I don't have lots of experience dealing with subs in and out which honestly is nice cause I know everything that's going on and am more in control since I or one of the other guys on the crew are doing the work.

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that anyone would think they're not responsible for their own mess. Not even just in the trades, just a common sense sort of thing. Isn't this the stuff our Mom's taught us? You make a mess, you clean it up.

The analogy was given regarding a tile floor that's just been laid. People assume you can walk on a tile floor. Most people don't know you can't walk on it right away. So what do we do? We tell them, and we also tape the door, block it, and do anything else to remind them, "Don't walk in this room" (Had one guy still get past all that...:laughing

That's a completely different story than the issue at hand. People don't assume it's ok to go spilling and tracking their crap all through the house without first protecting the floors. It's destruction of property... You don't destroy other people's stuff. Yes, I deal with remodeling scenarios 99% of the time so we're always covering stuff. But I'll say again, I fail to see why anyone thinks Pin is responsible to cover his floor's if he doesn't want someone to make a mess on them.

The only way that makes sense is if when Pin explained to the HO what was ok traffic/mess wise for the floors and the HO says "I think we're gonna be making more of a mess than that. Would you mind covering the floors if you have the material's to do so and add it to the bill?"
That would make sense, he doesn't want the other guys to have to deal with it. It's his call.
But you should always be planning to cover/protect everything you're not touching as part of your estimate IMO. It's foolish to think other wise.


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## HardWorks (Aug 6, 2014)

jb4211 said:


> Kap, I installed siding on a house and then, two weeks later, the tree guy rips through several pieces while trimming a tree. Am I responsible for not protecting my work?
> 
> The story was hypothetical, yet relevant.
> 
> ...



Your siding was finished and protecting it from non normal conditions is different. 

I'm not saying as a GC I wouldnt back charge for any costs with mess maker. But, what I am saying is protect your own work until it is bought. 

Who's responsible for stored products? I had a precast headwall hit by some truck on a job and broken. Who was responsible for it...ME and it was not even installed yet and 100 yards from the building.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

jb4211 said:


> Kap, I installed siding on a house and then, two weeks later, the tree guy rips through several pieces while trimming a tree. Am I responsible for not protecting my work?


Of course not... But make it more relevant... if you left a wall exposed to the elements for a month because you didn't protect it, is that the HO's fault?

Remember, protection doesn't discriminate... it doesn't matter how the damage was done... what matters is that it was done when it could have been avoided...

With the exception of Electrical, Plumbing and HVAC, we pretty much do all the other work on our jobs... from fabrication to installation of ours and other companies products... Constantly after process-improvement and efficiency.

I guess I don't see how protecting your work is a negative...

On the flip side, if you protected your unfinished work... no angst, no damage, no drama, no finger pointing, no uncompensated labor, etc...

If there was damage, there would be no question who would be responsible... 

The tile guy could have very well looked at the rough sanded floor and come to the conclusion that it wouldn't matter, it wasn't finish sanded yet... He certainly didn't take steps to rectify it... 

IOW, HE is the reason you put protection down to protect your unfinished work...




jb4211 said:


> The story was hypothetical, yet relevant.
> 
> That would be the tree guys fault as in Pinwheels case it was the tile guys fault.


Where did I say anywhere that it wasn't the tile guys fault for the footprints?... assuming it actually was the tile guy...

If it was, why was he not charged or the HO who was acting as GC?...

What I am saying is that it could have all been avoided by protecting his work especially when leaving it for an extended period of time...

Instead, it went on Pinwheels dime... as is usually the case as he said he does in post #71 because the damage is minimal... at what point do you get that it wouldn't have to be on your dime AT ALL if it was protected?





jb4211 said:


> I fully understand your point. I do.
> 
> But, protecting your work from inconsiderate azzholes is going beyond what should be needed and what most contractors that I know, included in their proposal. Because, if I have to protect my work from Slap Nuts I'm charging T&M for it.


I don't waste time worrying about our jobsite, because we set the conditions... we don't rely on the unseen and hope for the best...


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> *I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that anyone would think they're not responsible for their own mess. *Not even just in the trades, just a common sense sort of thing. Isn't this the stuff our Mom's taught us? *You make a mess, you clean it up.*


Consider... If that were the case, there would not BE an issue for Pinwheel to begin with, right? 

BUT the tile guy (assuming it was him) not only didn't clean up after himself (which I wouldn't want him touching the floor anyway BTW - can you imagine him using solvents and/or attempting to sand it out himself?... :blink but he didn't even notify anyone he made the mess in the first place... 

He didn't think he was responsible... which is the whole point...

The HO, who was apparently acting as GC, didn't even think it was an issue to tell Pinwheel when it happened, again, not being responsible... that's two unforeseeable's at work... and two reasons why protecting your work as a business practice exists....

All totally avoidable... 





Xtrememtnbiker said:


> The analogy was given regarding a tile floor that's just been laid. People assume you can walk on a tile floor. Most people don't know you can't walk on it right away. So what do we do? We tell them, and we also tape the door, block it, and do anything else to remind them, "Don't walk in this room" (Had one guy still get past all that...:laughing


Following the line of thinking in this thread, why would you protect your work? You don't think there are plumbers, electricians, cable guys, kids, pets, etc. who don't know you can't walk on the tile? 
And if they did, who would be responsible if you didn't put up tape, etc? 

If a painter did not put a "wet paint" sign up (thereby protecting their work and assigning liability) and someone leaned against the wall who was not there to hear the instructions about the walls being wet, who would be responsible for the re-paint?


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

So, I guess the solution would be just finish the floor right away and walk away, and let everybody else worry about a brand new floor.

........ Joking.... Sorta


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

KAP said:


> Consider... If that were the case, there would not BE an issue for Pinwheel to begin with, right?
> 
> BUT the tile guy (assuming it was him) not only didn't clean up after himself (which I wouldn't want him touching the floor anyway BTW - can you imagine him using solvents and/or attempting to sand it out himself?... :blink but he didn't even notify anyone he made the mess in the first place...
> 
> ...


Doesn't matter if the tile guy thinks that he's not responsible, he IS responsible. IMO the HO would have had every right to charge the tile guy whatever Pin would have charged him for fixing it had it needed repair past what he did (or even what he did, but good on Pin for just taking care of it).

Pin didn't say how large the floor was, I'm guessing 500-1,500 sq ft. Did Pin figure his T&M to cover it? No. He didn't need to. He lays the floor, tells people what's ok and not, and it's done. If he had laid a whole house, and then was going to come back next week and finish it, you're saying he then needs to paper the whole house so that it doesn't get messed up. That's idiotic IMO.

I just explained the difference in tile and other circumstances but I can say it again...

People see a floor, they assume you can walk on it. If it's tile, freshly painted, freshly finished and you don't want shoes on it, etc, put up a sign. Other wise, people are gonna think they can walk on a floor and rightly so, we're human, human's walk. Unless someone or something indicates not to, it's gonna happen.

The difference in my tile floor and Pin's wood floor with crap all over it, is you don't leave your crap laying on someone else's floor.
How is that so hard to understand...?

The exact same scenario would be for me to say that on your job (hypothetical) one of your guys spill's paint on a carpet, and you say it's the HO fault for not having covered their floors before you came in and painted. That makes no sense at all.

Your mess, your responsibility.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

This isn't a typical job for us. We normally work straight with the HO & have control of the job start to finish, or work for professional GC's who hire quality, professional subs.

In this case, the HO is his own GC & had the job timing all outta sink. What I really should have done on day one, was say, you're not ready for us & left & billed a trip charge. There's no reason a floor job needs to lay unprotected like that for a month. 

Live & learn, it's all gonna come out fine & I see no issues with getting final draw & the job will be finished to our standards, so alls well, that ends well.

We're waiting on the cabinet guys to finish up so we can put the final coat of finish on the floors.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Doesn't matter if the tile guy thinks that he's not responsible, he IS responsible. IMO the HO would have had every right to charge the tile guy whatever Pin would have charged him for fixing it had it needed repair past what he did (or even what he did, but good on Pin for just taking care of it).


If he or the HO acting as GC were responsible, they would have paid Pinwheel to take care of it... because you certainly don't want someone with no experience messing with solvents and sanding...

I don't understand why Pinwheel would charge a trip charge when post-poning the install because they weren't ready (which I would totally support) but not when he had to redo the work... :blink:




Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Pin didn't say how large the floor was, I'm guessing 500-1,500 sq ft. Did Pin figure his T&M to cover it? No. He didn't need to. He lays the floor, tells people what's ok and not, and it's done. If he had laid a whole house, and then was going to come back next week and finish it, you're saying he then needs to paper the whole house so that it doesn't get messed up. That's idiotic IMO.


What's more idiotic... to protect your work or having to deal with redoing the whole house because you relied on other contractors NOT making a mess?... which as we can see here is mute no matter if you think they should or not... they didn't... neither the tile guy nor the HO acting as GC, who didn't even notify Pinwheel...






Xtrememtnbiker said:


> I just explained the difference in tile and other circumstances but I can say it again...
> 
> People see a floor, they assume you can walk on it.


As we can see with the tile guy (assuming it was him), felt the same... 

So you protected your floor from others because people will assume they can walk on it, but Pinwheel shouldn't protect his floor that is not finished? Why would you need to protect your floors if you told the HO already? Why would Madrina go to great lengths to protect his epoxy floor?...

Experience... not wishful thinking that other contractors will treat your work with the same respect you would treat theirs...





Xtrememtnbiker said:


> If it's tile, freshly painted, freshly finished and you don't want shoes on it, etc, put up a sign. Other wise, people are gonna think they can walk on a floor and rightly so, we're human, human's walk. *Unless someone or something indicates not to, it's gonna happen.*


Absolutely... the difference here is that it didn't cost the tile guy or the HO a dime... it cost Pinwheel... best practices avoid this...

In fact, this situation is a GREAT example to use to discuss protection with future customers and build the cost into the bid...




Xtrememtnbiker said:


> The difference in my tile floor and Pin's wood floor with crap all over it, is you don't leave your crap laying on someone else's floor.
> How is that so hard to understand...?


I don't disagree in the least that you don't leave your crap laying on someone elses floor... YOU put down protection of your unfinished work BECAUSE there are people like the tile guy, and the guy your referenced even though you protected your floor and Madrina's example of overboard protection...

But if you DON'T put down protection, you don't have a leg to stand on in back-charging the HO... 

You don't get time back if you fix someone else's mess, and you don't get compensated if you can't charge for it...

A lose/lose for you... by protecting your unfinished work, you can AVOID this as an issue in the first place, and if something DOES happen despite your protection, YOU are not held prisoner to working for free... not to mention it adds to your professionalism and makes you stand out in the crowd about someone who cares about your work more than the next guy...

A win/win for you... Is that so hard to understand? 





Xtrememtnbiker said:


> The exact same scenario would be for me to say that on your job (hypothetical) one of your guys spill's paint on a carpet, and you say it's the HO fault for not having covered their floors before you came in and painted. That makes no sense at all.
> 
> Your mess, your responsibility.


I think what you are missing is that this did NOT end up being the person who caused it's responsibility... neither the tile guy (assuming he did it) nor the HO who was acting as GC did anything about it nor compensated Pinwheel... He got hosed IMHO, which is why he was angry enough to start the thread... we are in TOTAL AGREEMENT that if you make a mess, damage something, etc. it's your responsibility... 

Where we are not in agreement is leaving to chance that other contractors (not to mention HO's, kids, pets, the cable guy, etc.) will treat your unfinished work with the same respect as you would treat their's...

I am literally amazed at how some are arguing Pinwheel shouldn't have protected his unfinished work for an extended period of time while at the same time telling us that they protect theirs for a day or two... :blink:

In this thread you have some saying it's the tile guys fault and others saying it's the GC's (HO) fault... but the pertinent point is...

*WHO PAID FOR IT? *THAT'S who ended up being responsible...

Pinwheel... and it wasn't the first time as he's indicated... and my guess is he just wanted to power through it and avoid confrontation and just take care of the minor issue...

I know this happening more than once would teach me not to rely on others, especially subs that I didn't hire or know, to protect my unfinished work especially over an extended period of time...

Pinwheel got hosed on this... I just don't want him or others to be hosed when it can be totally avoided...

To each his own...


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

pinwheel said:


> This isn't a typical job for us. We normally work straight with the HO & have control of the job start to finish, or work for professional GC's who hire quality, professional subs.
> 
> In this case, the HO is his own GC & had the job timing all outta sink. What I really should have done on day one, was say, you're not ready for us & left & billed a trip charge. There's no reason a floor job needs to lay unprotected like that for a month.
> 
> ...


Just curious... after applying the first few coats, is the floor protected?


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## HardWorks (Aug 6, 2014)

kap said:


> just curious... After applying the first few coats, is the floor protected?


lmao


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

KAP said:


> Just curious... after applying the first few coats, is the floor protected?



Yes, it's protected with 2 coats of poly. When I leave the site, the varnish is wet, without a 2 1/2 hour round trip, there's nothing else I can do. Instructions were given as to what acceptable on the floors.


They phuck em up, the homeowner/GC will get a bill for repairs, since he was given the instructions on what's acceptable & since he wants to save money not hiring a GC, then he assumes the risk, just like any GC would in their situation.


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## chriswoodfloors (Sep 4, 2014)

pinwheel said:


> They phuck em up, the homeowner/GC will get a bill for repairs, since he was given the instructions on what's acceptable & since he wants to save money not hiring a GC, then he assumes the risk, just like any GC would in their situation.


Do you ever have trouble collecting at the end of the job or do you collect it beforehand? How do you do it. Do you get a deposit up front and a final at the end or do you do something different just wondering?


Christopher Wood Floors
(207)458-5372
www.christopherwoodfloors.com [email protected]


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

chriswoodfloors said:


> Do you ever have trouble collecting at the end of the job or do you collect it beforehand? How do you do it. Do you get a deposit up front and a final at the end or do you do something different just wondering?
> 
> 
> Christopher Wood Floors
> ...


Been doing this for 19 years. In that time, I've been stuck with a client owing me money twice in all that time. Under $2k total. Not a bad collection rate, huh?

On this job, I collected for materials +markup when I picked them up from my supplier. When I finished laying the floors & installing the stairs, I collected all monies owed for the install. When I put the final coat on the floors & stairs & finish installing the handrail & ballasters, I'll collect final draw. If I had any uneasy feelings about this client, I'd have already collected for the sanding & finishing, less 10% of final. 


We work almost exclusively off of referals, so I don't get real wrapped up in contracts, or set collection policies. If it's a refinish job that's gonna be done within the week, I wait till the final coat goes on to collect. Always leave making sure they know the jobs not to their satisfaction once it dries, I'll be back to make it right. Almost never get to see our floors after they're dry.


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## HardWorks (Aug 6, 2014)

I know things are different out your way. If you had that attitude here in the Philly area, your work would be tempered with and you'd have a bigger net loss than 20 Franklin's. 

It is comforting to know that business can still be conducted the way your doing it. Just not here in my region.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

HardWorks said:


> I know things are different out your way. If you had that attitude here in the Philly area, your work would be tempered with and you'd have a bigger net loss than 20 Franklin's.
> 
> It is comforting to know that business can still be conducted the way your doing it. Just not here in my region.


I read posts on this site every day that make me very thankful to live where I live.


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## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

pinwheel said:


> I read posts on this site every day that make me very thankful to live where I live.


Yep, I have been installing carpet since 1973. Only two jobs that I got stiffed on, $80 total. A lawyer for $40 and a real estate agent for $40. People in Missouri pay their bills.


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

Reading some of these posts amaze me. Either some people have no/little experience in the real world on jobsites or they work for some dumbass GC's. Example - Expecting a floor guy (or girl) or painter, to stand around and wait for their finish to dry, so they can protect it, is not only asinine, but unrealistic. Doesn't happen that way in the real world.


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## HardWorks (Aug 6, 2014)

Here according to what city or township I work in, I have to pay a cop time and a half to babysit my public concrete. Don't think we don't do mass pours under these situations. 

When we do overlays, stenciled, stamped or textured concrete, we babysit it until it is hard as a brick bat. Most of the time that is still in an 8 hour day. Maybe one guy will stay and take watch. 

When we do backyard work or areas where the chance of someone damaging concrete, we get a release signed by the GC or HO. 

We have clamped boards a crossed doorways, barrier walks and driveways, etc. 

In 26 years, I have seen bike and vehicle tire tracks, hand, foot, face and ass prints, names, cuss words, etc. Straight concrete it is a bruise to fix. On the deco stuff, its a bigger deal. 

In a year I may pay out $10,000 or $15,000 in overtime for a babysitter. That is cheap compared to a tear out, redo time and materials, regardless if its the GC's, Homeowner or Subs fault. I run my schedules planned and tight. There are enough blimps in this business, I don't need to make any more. 

I'd like to know how many hours it took to fix (for free) and how many hours you have just in the floor. I'm a big numbers and percentage guy. If it took you a hundred man hours to do the floor and four man hours to fix it, I'm way ahead by paying $10-15,000 in babysitting fees. It amounts to about 1%. That's cheap insurance without using insurance.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

KAP said:


> Cali, I think we are in agreement here... we both think we have should protect the work of others and ourselves...
> 
> The issue here is not protecting your work when away from it for an extended period of time and expecting nothing to happen to it...
> 
> If that were the case, why would Madrina go to the lengths he did to protect the wet epoxy?



:clap::clapoooo ooooo i can answer that! i protected the floors because they were in the process of drying and I didnt consider the job finished. Once I finished the job and the customer/gc/homeowner has verified the work is complete and they are satisfied... I would no longer protect the work. 

Coincidentally, after i had finished the work, i got a call from the gc about 6 months later and had to re do it once again because they had a water pipe bust and they had to dig up the concrete. they also decided to install a shower in that bathroom. The shower was built but not yet tiled. After i poured the floor that time.. the gc came to sign off on it once it dried, all was good. then the as$clown tile crew went in to tile the shower and scratched the floor all to hell. I only know because the super called and told me... not because i was responsible for it, but because he knew how many times i had poured that floor and FINALLY we got it dried with no foot prints in it and then the tile guys effed it all up. I never heard a peep from the gc. I didnt feel responsible for not protecting my work after it was done. I didnt feel responsible when i had protected it and it got messed up either.

common courtesy. you dont go to a job as a sub and crap all over every bodys work. its your responsibility as a sub to not mess up other peoples stuff! its also your responsibility to protect your own stuff until you are finished. if i pour a floor and the gc wants it protected with ram board after im finished..(which i always suggest) then i add that in the estimate. 

when i was pouring that floor, i was having to work around sheetrockers and the electricians and the inspector.. the owners would come in every night and track sheetrock all over the floor... even tho i had walk boards up... no one used them.. and id have to spend all day the next day cleaning again because even opening the door causes a wind shift that compromises the adhesion to the floor. 

I kept my mouth shut and just tried to go with the flo, understanding that progress had to be made from all angles even tho it specified in my contract that no other subs could be in the building for 4 days. Then 4 weeks later i was still frecking cleaning and i just frecking lost it on a sheetrocker because we had rooms taped off and cleaned.. went to mix up the metallic epoxy and came back and the mf had done a little touch up sanding in each one!!! 

I yelled so frecking loud subs from everywhere came running to see what was going on.. I was yellin "What does this say! what does thiS say!? and holding up the sign that said "DO NOT ENTER NO ENTRAR" i was like "THIS WAS TAPED TO THE DOOR AND THE WALL ACROSS THE DOOR HANDLE! SO ANYONE WHO WENT IN THE ROOM HAD TO REMOVE THIS SIGN TO GET TO THE DOOR HANDLE!!! I said how bout i waste this 500$ worth of epoxy i just mixed up right here smearing it across that frecking sheetrock! i was unDONE lol.. ten minutes after my raging fit the gc showed up and kicked every one off the job right then and there and said "you have 4 days"... I was like "THANK YOU!"... and as soon as he left i said "A$$HOLE" real loud... lol it was December 23.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I think a lot of this can be avoided with proper scheduling from an experienced GC who knows when it's time to install the finished product.


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## chriswoodfloors (Sep 4, 2014)

Californiadecks said:


> I think a lot of this can be avoided with proper scheduling from an experienced GC who knows when it's time to install the finished product.


Completely agree.

Christopher Wood Floors
(207)458-5372
www.christopherwoodfloors.com [email protected]


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> I think a lot of this can be avoided with proper scheduling from an experienced GC who knows when it's time to install the finished product.


Agree also, but sometimes, as in this case, the HO is the GC... not always in our control, hence, the need to protect your unfinished work from the things out of your control IMHO...

Or just take the chance and create more work for yourself later that you aren't compensated for... you pay for that decision...

That's really what matters... the rest is just fluff...

Another case in point of others not treating your work with the same respect you treat theirs... 

http://www.contractortalk.com/f16/backcharging-153104/

.


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## pibe (Jan 21, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> If someone comes into my home and shoots my whole family, I'm going to be pissed when they put me in jail for not protecting my family and not the actual murders. :laughing:
> Just a joke by the way.


In some areas police are starting to hand out tickets/fines to people who leave their car windows rolled down too far and leave their car doors unlocked.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

KAP said:


> Agree also, but sometimes, as in this case, the HO is the GC... not always in our control, hence, the need to protect your unfinished work from the things out of your control IMHO...
> 
> Or just take the chance and create more work for yourself later that you aren't compensated for... you pay for that decision...
> 
> ...


Nope. I had almost the same thing happen to me on the deck with a radius thread. I told the HO to make sure the masons mask off the deck properly I'm not going to do it because I'm not going to own thier mess if they rip my plastic. They would certainly say it was because of my plastic. So the HO took charge and made them mask it. If you are going to be destructive you need to own your own protection. You will never convince me otherwise. I've been doing this a long time. You do things your way I'll continue with the successes of mine.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> Nope. I had almost the same thing happen to me on the deck with a radius thread. I told the HO to make sure the masons mask off the deck properly I'm not going to do it because I'm not going to own thier mess if they rip my plastic. They would certainly say it was because of my plastic. So the HO took charge and made them mask it. If you are going to be destructive you need to own your own protection. You will never convince me otherwise. I've been doing this a long time. You do things your way I'll continue with the successes of mine.


The interesting thing about this Cali is we don't have recurring problems like footprints and tool drop dings, etc. caused by other contractors because we control our jobsites and protect it... if there is damage on our jobsite, there is NO QUESTION who is responsible... one of the big steps forward in production and job delay elimination was protection... not only do we view it as next level, it's also a selling point for us... 

Including protecting our own work from ourselves as well as other contractors and anyone else who might enter the work area for other reasons even when told not to or without your knowledge (you can't be there 24/7, not reality), which this thread alone shows multiple examples... 

As we can see from others on here that go to great lengths to protect their work, even though it shouldn't matter if all contractors treated your work with the same respect as others, you will always come across the guys who aren't keen on "cleaning up their mess" or make assumptions about what's finished and what's not... for all we know, the tile guy could have made the assumption the floor was rough-sanded and what he did wouldn't matter... He could have forgotten to bring (at least) rosin paper, and like Pinwheel, didn't want to make the extra trip... there's a plethora of reasons...

But the reasons why the damage don't matter... the end result is what matters... WHO lost time and money?... Who ended up being responsible?... in this case...

Pinwheel... and it was avoidable... and it sucks that it happened to him... but as he said himself in post #71... he's used to dealing with it... we just don't want to deal with it so we learned from it years ago...

Everyone has their way... and if it works for you, great... Pinwheel doesn't use contracts either because of where he lives so issues like this are not spelled out other than verbal, which we all know the valie of he said/she said... being that Pinwheel keeps having to deal with it, it doesn't seem like what he is doing works for him... but if he's happy dealing with it (which I assume this thread show's he's not), more power to him... 

Our way is we don't like to re-do or get involved in the finger pointing game (BTW, who was responsible, the tile guy or the GC? You seemed to finger both, but the HO was the GC)... so we protect until we collect the final check... but as I said before...

To each his own... I'm not here to judge how you run your business, just give alternate ways to increase production, productivity and your bottom line based on my experience over the decades...

Take what you like and leave what you don't...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

So what happens when the masons ****s up my deck through my protection. Now it's both of our **** up. If he is the only one protecting things from his install he's the only one responsible for his **** stains. why don't you stop trying to convince me otherwise, is not going to happen.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Damn Kap, don't you have any work to do?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm just going back from break


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> I just going back from break


I just came up the hill from the shop to get some lunch. Gettin ready to head back down the hill.:whistling


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## chriswoodfloors (Sep 4, 2014)

Man pinwheel you really started something with this thread

Christopher Wood Floors
(207)458-5372
www.christopherwoodfloors.com [email protected]


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## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> I think a lot of this can be avoided with proper scheduling from an experienced GC who knows when it's time to install the finished product.


Do these people exist? I have never met one.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

chriswoodfloors said:


> Man pinwheel you really started something with this thread
> 
> Christopher Wood Floors
> (207)458-5372
> www.christopherwoodfloors.com [email protected]


Damn thread got legs & took off, didn't it?:laughing::laughing:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> So what happens when the masons ****s up my deck through my protection. Now it's both of our **** up. If he is the only one protecting things from his install he's the only one responsible for his **** stains. why don't you stop trying to convince me otherwise, is not going to happen.


Are you kidding? So when you put down protection and the cable guy or the kids or the pet makes whatever mess, you are saying YOU are responsible?... :no:

Uh no... it doesn't work that way...

In your thinking, Madrina and others who protected their work and it got FUBAR'd are responsible... :no:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

pinwheel said:


> Damn Kap, don't you have any work to do?


I mdke a post at 8:10am and 11:30am... lame 

Interestingly enough... just finished a full-house remodel this past week... 

No footprints or stains... :thumbsup:

Wonder why...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

KAP said:


> Are you kidding? So when you put down protection and the cable guy or the kids or the pet makes whatever mess, you are saying YOU are responsible?... :no:
> 
> Uh no... it doesn't work that way...


Uh yes it does. If they say he should of use this or that when it fails. If the guy who leaves the **** stain makes a mess they don't have a legal case let alone a logical one. I own nothing of the mess that I don't leave if I'm not a partner in the protection. 

What are they going to tell the judge? Well the Painter over sprayed the tub this is why we're suing the plumber. Unbelievable.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> Uh yes it does. If they say he should of use this or that when it fails. If the guy who leaves the **** stain makes a mess they don't have a legal case let alone a logical one. I own nothing of the mess that I don't leave if I'm not a partner in the protection.
> 
> What are they going to tell the judge? Well the Painter over sprayed the tub this is why we're suing the plumber. Unbelievable.


Totally wrong... The plumber already installed his product... his liability in that situation is over... you don't need to protect the product once installation is complete... if your deck was finished being installed, you have no reason to be in the protection business from that point... If it is unfinished, you still have an obligation to protect your work in the same way another trade has to protect your work... 

If the mason's don't think your protection is adequate for their purpose or product that you used to protect YOUR product (not just from the mason), they have an obligation to protect it further... the same way a painter would have the obligation to add plastic if a HO (you know, the GC) put down old bed sheets to protect from paint... the trade installing THEIR product knows what protection should be in place... There is a reason painters use plastic and rosin paper and others use Ramboard... different purposes of protection...

But here's the critical point... assuming your deck wasn't finished, the mason is not the only you are protecting from... what don't you understand about that?...

Unbelievable indeed...


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

pinwheel said:


> Damn thread got legs & took off, didn't it?:laughing::laughing:


No, no, no...this thread got on a plane and KAP is the pilot and then it took off. lol


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## chriswoodfloors (Sep 4, 2014)

I think it just comes down to professionalism. We all work just as hard for our finances and customer satisfaction. So simply to have a little respect for each other's trade goes a long way. Let's just all make an agreement that we will do our best to protect each other's work. And if we are unable to protect the work and damage it ,be a man and a professional and fix your mistake.

Christopher Wood Floors
(207)458-5372
www.christopherwoodfloors.com [email protected]


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## chriswoodfloors (Sep 4, 2014)

KAP said:


> If the mason's don't think your protection is adequate for their purpose or product that you used to protect YOUR product (not just from the mason), they have an obligation to protect it further... the same way a painter would have the obligation to add plastic if a HO (you know, the GC) put down old bed sheets to protect from paint... the trade installing THEIR product knows what protection should be in place... There is a reason painters use plastic and rosin paper and others use Ramboard... different purposes of protection.



You have answered it all right there. The incoming Trade protects the previous trades work. How could the trade that installed the item anticipate what protection will be needed for the next incoming trade? So it is up to the incoming trade to protect the previous trades work with what they feel is adequate protection. If said said protection was not adequate and damage is done then it is their responsibility to have it fixed.
Kap appear to be arguing with himeself

Christopher Wood Floors
(207)458-5372
www.christopherwoodfloors.com [email protected]


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

chriswoodfloors said:


> I think it just comes down to professionalism. We all work just as hard for our finances and customer satisfaction. So simply to have a little respect for each other's trade goes a long way. Let's just all make an agreement that we will do our best to protect each other's work. And if we are unable to protect the work and damage it ,be a man and a professional and fix your mistake.
> 
> Christopher Wood Floors
> (207)458-5372
> www.christopherwoodfloors.com [email protected]


You are assuming the mason was your only concern... :no:

As noted above, if the protection put in place by you (assuming you tarped it to protect from rain) to protect your work was not adequate for the work being done by the mason, the mason would have to bring it to the level of protection needed for his product or service... 

Take it in the reverse.... if you didn't tarp for rain, which is relevant protection for your work and he did put down protection that was relevant to his work, and it rained, guess whose payin'...


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)




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## chriswoodfloors (Sep 4, 2014)

EthanB said:


>


LMFAO !!!!

Christopher Wood Floors
(207)458-5372
www.christopherwoodfloors.com [email protected]om


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

EthanB said:


>


To you... no-ones forcing you to read or post...


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## InterCounty (Apr 27, 2010)

Holy Crap this thread is exhausting! 

Didn't realize it was going on for so many days and just caught up by skimming over a billion posts with massive walls of text.

I don't even see the original big deal really. Some dirt & glue prints on a troweled floor? 

That sheet will sand right out with a 36. If you leave a raw floor for a month - where you know there are other trades - plan on people taking a dump on it. 

I would never even rough out a floor if I was gone for a month. I know its gonna be a muddy nightmare when I come back.

Now who's responsible? Well floors are a bit of different story then other trades. People HAVE to walk on them. Plan on NORMAL wear & tear. NORMAL dirt. NORMAL light debris. It all comes out with NORMAL sanding.

Some idiot sh!tting GLUE all over the place because he was too damn lazy to put down a drop cloth is HIS fault. I mean wtf? 

However, in his mind he prob *thought* the floor guy was coming back and didnt think it would be an issue. I doubt he would have left it that way if it was brand new carpeting.

Bottom line it comes down to communication.
Go over it with the GC/Homeowner. As was stated in another post - let them know what is acceptable.

We leave pre-printed signs all over the job site stating, "Dont eff up our effing floor or else you will effin DIE!!!".

...well, something kinda close to that but you get the point.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

chriswoodfloors said:


> You have answered it all right there. The incoming Trade protects the previous trades work. *How could the trade that installed the item anticipate what protection will be needed for the next incoming trade? *


You don't... if what they are installing needs more protection than what you provided to protect your work, that is up to them to bring it to that level... hence, the painter example... 






chriswoodfloors said:


> So it is up to the incoming trade to protect the previous trades work with what they feel is adequate protection. If said said protection was not adequate and damage is done then it is their responsibility to have it fixed.
> Kap appear to be arguing with himeself
> 
> Christopher Wood Floors
> ...


Chris, where you go off the rails is assuming the next trade is the only thing your work needs protection from... :no:

You are not just protecting from the next trade in line which we all agree they should provide their own protection, but as this thread shows does NOT happen as much as it should... you are protecting from the unknown (which could be the HO, kids, cable guy, pets, etc)...

But you NOT providing protection for YOUR product puts it on YOUR DIME the same way it does when you don't protect others work... If Madrina did not go to lengths he did to protect his epoxy work, the finger could easily be pointed at him if a kid or pet went in there... 

Protection is for the unknown... as Pinwheel found out...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Kap the reason I'm not wrong is because this has happened exactly like as I described, to me already. It didn't happen the way you described it. So that makes you wrong. That's fact not a hypothetical.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

KAP said:


> Totally wrong... The plumber already installed his product... his liability in that situation is over... you don't need to protect the product once installation is complete... if your deck was finished being installed, you have no reason to be in the protection business from that point... If it is unfinished, you still have an obligation to protect your work in the same way another trade has to protect your work...
> 
> If the mason's don't think your protection is adequate for their purpose or product that you used to protect YOUR product (not just from the mason), they have an obligation to protect it further... the same way a painter would have the obligation to add plastic if a HO (you know, the GC) put down old bed sheets to protect from paint... the trade installing THEIR product knows what protection should be in place... There is a reason painters use plastic and rosin paper and others use Ramboard... different purposes of protection...
> 
> ...


So the plumber needs to come back and install his fixtures that means he's now needs to mask it for the Painter? I don't think so.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

KAP said:


> Protection is for the unknown... as Pinwheel found out...


_...there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones._ - Donald Rumsfeld


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## InterCounty (Apr 27, 2010)

I think there is reasonable liability for BOTH parties.

Someone should plan on reasonable protection for their work against normal jobsite happenings. Something that is extreme is the other parties responsibility.

If a new appliance is installed one would expect the plastic wrapping left on would protect it against normal dirt/dust. However if another trade dented the stainless steel facing with a piece of lumber, that would be extreme and beyond the normal protection provided. The appliance guy shouldn't be expected to built a plywood fort around the refrigerator.

As a floor guy, I expect a normal amount of dirt, spackle & paint spatter on an unfinished floor. Our 'normal protection' is no sanding at all if we wont be back for a while. All that stuff easily sands out and we protect ourselves from double work.

Now, if some idiot used a wet saw and drowned the hardwood in water, causing cupping and separation, it would be extreme and his fault.

"Whats normal protection" for every various trade's work is open for debate.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

InterCounty said:


> I think there is reasonable liability for BOTH parties.
> 
> Someone should plan on reasonable protection for their work against normal jobsite happenings. Something that is extreme is the other parties responsibility.
> 
> ...


Nope, only the person who makes the mess is to blame. Period!


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

> As a floor guys I expect a normal amount of dirt, spackle & paint spatter on an unfinished floor. (Our 'normal protection' is no sanding at all if we wont be back for a while.)


Uh huh, well that's fine an all, except that:

As a Builder/Contractor, it's all on me. So if for some reason, there is a delay between laying and finishing - I/we will do whatever is needed to protect said floor. Seeing a raw floor boogered up with spackle or whatever is NOT on my "Acceptable" list.

I've seen some stupid-azzed **** in my 40 some years doing this: Mostly by the after hours homeowner visiting, or a really fricking dumb-azzed inspector walking across a fresh laid tiled floor, or one of my own "rode the short bus to school" cleanup guys singing "do-dee-doh" while locking up at night.

But God D**n it - it is on ME in the end to see to it that whatever is adequately protected.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Once you see my work isn't protected and you proceed anyway you assume responsibility.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

You boys have fun with this thread, I'm checking out. I've already addressed everything that concerns me & I'm comfortable with how I do things & how this job's progressed. Client's tickled chitless with their new floors & I'm gonna collect final draw in a week or so. At the end of the day, those are the only 2 things that I really give a damn about where this is concerned.


Inter, I've already addressed everything your bringing to the conversation as far as I'm concerned. If you want my input, just go back & actually read all my posts.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> Kap the reason I'm not wrong is because this has happened exactly like as I described, to me already. It didn't happen the way you described it. So that makes you wrong. That's fact not a hypothetical.


Cali, what are talking about? If the plumber already installed the tub and the fixtures were not installed yet, most around here leave the wrap on as a minimum to protect from dust, spackle or paint splatter or tape the cardboard on that it came in... fixtures don't go on until after tile or surround... 

You are going to install a $2000 jacuzzi tub and NOT protect it until the job is done and leave it to chance you'll end up with the tile guy from this thread? I don't think so... that would be negligent IMHO... 

I wouldn't leave it unprotected for the very idea that the kids or pets would be potentially jumping in and out...

We have different standards on protection... I get it... 

One thing is for sure... this thread is an AWESOME sales tool for those who do protect their work... :thumbsup:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Uh huh, well that's fine an all, except that:
> 
> As a Builder/Contractor, it's all on me. So if for some reason, there is a delay between laying and finishing - I/we will do whatever is needed to protect said floor. Seeing a raw floor boogered up with spackle or whatever is NOT on my "Acceptable" list.
> 
> ...


The unknown... and as we can see, it's not necessarily the next trade... :thumbsup:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

KAP said:


> Cali, what are talking about? If the plumber already installed the tub and the fixtures were not installed yet, most around here leave the wrap on as a minimum to protect from dust, spackle or paint splatter or tape the cardboard on that it came in... fixtures don't go on until after tile or surround...
> 
> You are going to install a $2000 jacuzzi tub and NOT protect it and leave it to chance you'll end up with the tile guy from this thread? I don't think so... that would be negligent IMHO...
> 
> ...


I can only hold the one who did the **** staining responsible for the **** stain I can't blame it on the person who got s**t on.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

While your job is on-going, you should protect your work/the jobsite. If we open up a roof and don't get it covered then it rains over night, it's on me. If we finish that roof, the homeowner gets satellite TV and it leaks from the guy screwing holes into the roof, that's on them.

In this case, Pin wasn't done, some jack leg made a mess on the floor (that he should be man enough to clean up) then pinwheel had to spend more time to clean up this mess when he went back to finish.

If this floor was finished and that happened, then the responsibility is solely on the person who caused the mess.

It's our job as PROFESSIONAL contractors to minimize any damages to our work, others work, and the homeowners property itself when we are working on a jobsite.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> I can only hold the one who did the **** staining responsible for the **** stain I can't blame it on the person who got s**t on.


Cali, you are assuming you will know who that is and whether or not they provided protection at all.... you've never been on a job with multiple trades at work? 

If you don't know who it was and didn't protect your unfinished product, you are up the creek... it's on you... 

In this thread, you said it was both the tile guy (assuming it was him) AND the HO who was acting as GC... This seems to run contrary to your position...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

KAP said:


> Cali, you are assuming you will know who that is and whether or not they provided protection at all.... you've never been on a job with multiple trades at work?
> 
> If you don't know who it was and didn't protect your product, you are up the creek... it's on you...
> 
> In this thread, you said it was both the tile guy (assuming it was him) AND the HO who was acting as GC... This seems to run contrary to your position...


Do you realize I'm purposely and for fun making you chase your tail. :laughing:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> Do you realize I'm purposely and for fun making you chase your tail. :laughing:


Yeah, THAT's the reason... I was actually getting ready to PM you wondering what was up your butt... 

But don't worry, I know where my tail leads so I am more than happy to chase it... :thumbsup:

Carry on... :laughing:


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## InterCounty (Apr 27, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Nope, only the person who makes the mess is to blame. Period!


Reading over mostly this entire thread I see that -

Obviously, you are hell bent stuck in your thought pattern and have been arguing tooth & nail to get you way to be "proven right". 

There have been plenty of plausible ideas and reasonable examples posted by several contractors on this thread that you absolutely refuse to even consider as relevant.

You continue to argue, posting on this thread for days on end.
You have drawn your line in the sand, dug your heels in to save face and to uphold your pride.

Cali, I personally don't 100% disagree with you, but I don't 100% agree with you either. 

At least in most of my discussions I am *open* to the thoughts of others - even if I don't have 10k posts

However, I won't debate it with you as that would prove to be foolishness on my part.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

KAP said:


> Yeah, THAT's the reason... I was actually getting ready to PM you wondering what was up your butt...
> 
> But don't worry, I know where my tail leads so I am more than happy to chase it... :thumbsup:
> 
> Carry on... :laughing:


Why do you keep going when you know your not gong to change my mind? (Which should be obvious at this point) Because of that you think something is up my butt? Sometimes when something is right for you and how you conduct your business doesn't mean it has to be right for me and how I conduct my business. So I'm going to concede you are right, for your circumstance, but not mine. Fair enough?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

InterCounty said:


> Reading over mostly this entire thread:
> 
> Obviously, you are hell bent stuck in your thought pattern and have been arguing tooth & nail to get you way and be "right".
> 
> ...


Yes I am absolutely he'll bent on what I think, So?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

InterCounty said:


> Reading over mostly this entire thread I see that -
> 
> Obviously, you are hell bent stuck in your thought pattern and have been arguing tooth & nail to get you way and to be "proven right".
> 
> ...


Dude I could care less what you think.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> Why do you keep going when you know your not gong to change my mind? (Which should be obvious at this point) Because of that you think something is up my butt? *Sometimes when something is right for you and how you conduct your business doesn't mean it has to be right for me and how I conduct my business. *So I'm going to concede you are right, for your circumstance, but not mine. Fair enough?


I already said that a few pages ago and again on this page... We have different standards on protection... I get it... could be because I am a GC and you are just looking at it from a subs POV... I am looking at it from a financial, productivity, best practices and customer POV...

The reason I was going to PM you is your posts have typically landed on the quality side of things... I don't consider leaving an unfinished product unprotected in that vein... especially from a customer service POV... in fact, I view it as inviting Murphy onto the job...

There's all downside NOT to protect your unfinished product, and all upside TO protect your unfinished product...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

KAP said:


> I already said that a few pages ago and again on this page... We have different standards on protection... I get it...
> 
> The reason I was going to PM you is your posts have typically landed on the quality side of things... I don't consider leaving an unfinished product unprotected in that vein... especially from a customer service POV... in fact, I view it as inviting Murphy onto the job...
> 
> There's all downside NOT to protect your unfinished product, and all upside TO protect your unfinished product...


doesn't matter if I leave it unprotected or not and you proceed to move forward and damage an obviously unprotected surface it's on you to protect it. Only the person making the mess is responsible for his or her mess. It's not the person that got pooped ons fault. 
Unbelievable and 
Unsubscribed!


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

KAP said:


> Yeah, THAT's the reason... I was actually getting ready to PM you wondering what was up your butt...
> 
> But don't worry, I know where my tail leads so I am more than happy to chase it... :thumbsup:
> 
> Carry on... :laughing:


ooooooo?? thats kind of kinky. sort of. in a weird homosexual sort of way. 

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD LETS JUST FIGHT ABOUT IT! its going to be like the news teams fighting in the alley on anchorman.... lol 

PS its only fair to let yal know... im a one hitter quitter and ima take the first shot you give me. just sayin..:boxing:


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