# Why the need for arc fault breakers



## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

I've been building a large extension on my home that's turning into a life long project .My sparkies installed a couple of main lug sub panels throughout the extension and existing home .They installed the breakers a couple of weeks ago and fired up the panels and checked to make sure everything was in working order . So everything looks good and I'm finally excited to begin rocking . My sparkies show up Saturday morning and start pulling out a few breakers from the panels and replace them with arc fault breakers that cost $30 ea. If I remember correctly they said I need about 35 of these breakers .I walked away without asking them why. My question is shouldn't they have known about this from the beginning and installed them from day one .I'm also assuming that they are required by code , but when did they become code and why ?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Yeah, they should have known (and probably did). The idea is that electrical arcs can obviously start fires, so there should be a lot less electrical fires with arc-faults in place. Been code since at least '08.

Arc-faults can be a little eccentric at times, popping when there's not really any problem--though they've gotten better than in years past. The sparkies may have just wanted to establish a baseline before installing 'em.

Yeah, they do hurt the wallet...


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

Tinstaafl said:


> Yeah, they should have known (and probably did). The idea is that electrical arcs can obviously start fires, so there should be a lot less electrical fires with arc-faults in place. Been code since at least '08.
> 
> Arc-faults can be a little eccentric at times, popping when there's not really any problem--though they've gotten better than in years past. The sparkies may have just wanted to establish a baseline before installing 'em.
> 
> Yeah, they do hurt the wallet...


Why is it that they aren't replacing all of them and just a few in each panel ?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Eaglei said:


> Why is it that they aren't replacing all of them and just a few in each panel ?


'08 code requires them in:



> family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas


Believe it or not, that still allows for a couple of places you don't have to have them. :laughing:

Not required in kitchen and bath (though GFCIs are), and a few other places. Though I'm sure they'd love to have 'em everywhere.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Several sub-panels and *35* arc-faults????
Just how big is this house/addition??


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Wouldn't it be cheaper to install a 200 amp arc fault main?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> Wouldn't it be cheaper to install a 200 amp arc fault main?


Have fun resetting that on a regular basis. They are close to 70 bucks here and required in bedrooms.


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

Chris Johnson said:


> Wouldn't it be cheaper to install a 200 amp arc fault main?


Good question , lets see what the sparkies have to say . I have one 200 amp main and five sub panels .


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

From the description of the time frame, you may have gotten caught in a code transition. 

The old one does not apply because no final inspection has been done. You need to comply with the code in force at the time of the inspection.

I would never install an AFI main.

Tom


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Eaglei said:


> Good question , lets see what the sparkies have to say . I have one 200 amp main and five sub panels .


You realize I'm kidding I hope. I have enough trouble fixing the time twice a year on the microwave, I can't imagine every time the arc fault pops doing that, a few alarm clocks, etc and then to fumble around to the basement to find the damn panel


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

We put them in at the last possible minute. So they don't keep popping when someone plugs a tool in.


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

jlsconstruction said:


> We put them in at the last possible minute. So they don't keep popping when someone plugs a tool in.


I didn't realize they were that sensitive , unreal .


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Eaglei said:


> I didn't realize they were that sensitive , unreal .


Especially if the brushes are getting a little weak.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

At $30 each you should buy all of them. I think they are close to $50 here for sd qo..


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Don't forget they have to have there own neutral . Cause 12/3 won't work on breaker . ( Doesn't protect )


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

I had some trouble with tripping when they first came out. For the most part haven't had any trouble with them in several years.

Have never heard of 35 in a house though, I have the same question as speedy - just how big is this house?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TxElectrician said:


> I had some trouble with tripping when they first came out. For the most part haven't had any trouble with them in several years.
> 
> Have never heard of 35 in a house though, I have the same question as speedy - just how big is this house?


Agreed the ones that came out at first were crap.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Arc fault breakers catch a couple of problems. 

One could be something like a nail shot into a wire - when the conductor gets too flaky, the arc fault should trip (if under load). I know of one development outside of Dallas that had wiring 1/2" from the stud edge (all the same builder, and I'm betting all the same inspector). Two houses burned from this problem.

The other would be something like a faulty appliance or connection to an outlet. I've seen new expensive refrs have problems popping the arc fault, but you could plug a table saw in and it would be fine. 

FWIW, I looked at a circuit diagram for an arc fault breaker, and it's actually pretty complex.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Each AFI will cost about about $1.00 a year to "run" in my area. They all draw a slight amount of current continually. 

Tom


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Seriously.... Whata ya got there..... with 35 arc fault protected branch circuits.... a whorehouse with high amp vibrators in every bedroom?

Is this a misprint or a joke.

I didn't even know you could obtain a main arc fault... and even less why you'd want that apart from mere cost.... and I agree with everyone else.... where is someone even finding them at $30.

Something is strange/screwy here.... Just my tentative guess/opinion.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> From the description of the time frame, you may have gotten caught in a code transition.
> 
> The old one does not apply because no final inspection has been done. You need to comply with the code in force at the time of the inspection.
> 
> ...


Around here - I don't know if it's California or just a local thing - it's the code in force at the time the permit was pulled. It's made a difference in a couple of cases for me.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Here it is the adopted code at the time of the inspection. Our permits run for 2 years, a 1 year extension is pretty much automatic. On my own home I had to change a railing for occupancy permit. New code was in force one week prior to my final. They did not charge me for a reinspection at least. 

Tom


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## SparkyDino (Oct 15, 2013)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> SparkyDino..... I do not have a copy (or the research expertise right now to investigate) of the 2014 NEC......
> 
> But I am curious as to your use of the word UPDATE. NEC code obviously requires new construction/renovation to comply.... but surely the code can't require updating to AFIC's...... the principal of grandfathered must still exist.
> 
> Necessarily you always risk some buffo HI stating something is not up to code and not mentioning grandfather building codes..... but surely the NEC has not asserted updating is required?


"updated" was the wrong way for me to say it.

I don't know that the 2014 is requiring you to go into existing homes and upgrade to AFCI. Other than knowing if you touch it, or add to it, or add new, you do have to put in AFCI's for just about every room in a house now if that city is on the code cycle requiring it.

I was trying to make a comparison to GFCI's in kitchens & baths, etc etc........ those structures are also "grandfathered" for many things BUT you still have to put GFCI's in & upgrade the kitchen, bath, garage, outside etc receptacles to GFCI when you buy or sell or rent the dwelling out even though the building was built to a different code cycle. the electrical safety devices are not grandfathered, they are required.

They do require certain life safety issues to be brought to code regardless when the building was built. GFCI's as the main example.

I'll say it again, watch in the coming years they will probably be doing the same thing with AFCI because they limit arc duration, hence limit fires starting.

I didn't mean to mis-lead, still learning about this new AFCI BS myself after many years of not doing residential


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## SparkyDino (Oct 15, 2013)

and another side note..............the banks & insurance companies can/may require it just like they do with other things.

a fused 60 amp service panel is grandfathered in, bank will make ya put 100 amp circuit breakers in to buy/sell it.

I was just trying to point out this will most likely be the same with AFCI's


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Around here - I don't know if it's California or just a local thing - it's the code in force at the time the permit was pulled. It's made a difference in a couple of cases for me.


Yes.... But through the grace of an AHJ (not the BI) we caught the lucky side of that....

Can't recall my exact Cali code years.... get mixed up when I'm not out there, but you had that double firewall (5/8 rock interior/EXTERIOR garage) when in certain proximity to adjoining property..... that changed with the code cycle. The AHJ let us use the new code.... although permit was clearly old code...... just a resonable cooperative AHJ.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

SparkyDino said:


> "updated" was the wrong way for me to say it.
> 
> I don't know that the 2014 is requiring you to go into existing homes and upgrade to AFCI. Other than knowing if you touch it, or add to it, or add new, you do have to put in AFCI's for just about every room in a house now if that city is on the code cycle requiring it.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: Yuup....... You got me covered...

You know..... GFI's are so and such a dominate issue with property sales as a practical matter, I always recommend bringing them to compliance before an HI or even before putting on the market.

GFI, just scares an unsophisticated buyer.... for a lousy $50-100 bucks, who wants to write the letter and argue grandfather code.

Best


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

SparkyDino said:


> and another side note..............the banks & insurance companies can/may require it just like they do with other things.
> 
> a fused 60 amp service panel is grandfathered in, bank will make ya put 100 amp circuit breakers in to buy/sell it.
> 
> I was just trying to point out this will most likely be the same with AFCI's


I had not run into it with a conventional loan..... but some VA loans/appraisers raise the issue, and if you want to sell the home, clearly the least expensive and pragmatic issue is to capitulate.... or put it back up for sale.

Best


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

AFCI's drive a fair number of remodeling decisions in a condo development that we work in. The original panel might have room for a new circuit or two for the bath or kitchen, but when you touch one of the general lighting circuits, which are on tandem breakers, you need to switch to an AFCI. You need a full space, and you don't have one available, so you need a new panel. The original panels are in the closet, so you put the new panel in the hall, and tear up the the wall and ceilings putting in EMT. Well, as long as we're doing that, why not look at some additional stuff. Either the project gets bigger or it goes away.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

SparkyDino said:


> and another side note..............the banks & insurance companies can/may require it just like they do with other things.
> 
> a fused 60 amp service panel is grandfathered in, bank will make ya put 100 amp circuit breakers in to buy/sell it.
> 
> I was just trying to point out this will most likely be the same with AFCI's


I have never seen that happen here, banks and ins. co. never say a word about stuff inside a house. Outside is a different story, usually with sidewalks & stair railings.

What do they say about Federal Pacific Panels? 

I was told a while back that the arc fault stuff was started because of electric blankets, it that true?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Insurance companies will force upgrades here, at least in multifamily. Smokes, egress, electric. These aren't always a "bring it up to code", they can and have required above code changes.

Just to be clear, this doesn't come up in single family much, just in commercial underwriting of residential multi-family.


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