# Water Hammer Arrester Question



## conroyian (May 12, 2008)

Hey all, 
I searched the existing threads for an answer but I didn't see one so I apologize if I missed a similar thread.

I recently installed a 4 fixture bathroom (urinal, sink, toilet, shower in this order from supply). I believe there is a water hammer problem when I flush the urinal. I installed a hammer arrester, size AA, about 8 feet from the valve of the urinal. It took care roughly 2/3 of the noise but it's not completely gone. Should I use a size B arrester? does it need to be installed right before the valve of the urinal (hopefully not since I will have to go into drywall)? Does anyone have any ideas?
Thanks


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

conroyian said:


> Hey all,
> I searched the existing threads for an answer but I didn't see one so I apologize if I missed a similar thread.
> 
> I recently installed a 4 fixture bathroom (urinal, sink, toilet, shower in this order from supply). I believe there is a water hammer problem when I flush the urinal. I installed a hammer arrester, size AA, about 8 feet from the valve of the urinal. It took care roughly 2/3 of the noise but it's not completely gone. Should I use a size B arrester? does it need to be installed right before the valve of the urinal (hopefully not since I will have to go into drywall)? Does anyone have any ideas?
> Thanks



Your plumber will know.


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## conroyian (May 12, 2008)

thanks 22....i appreciate the help. I am a contracter and do own my own business but I'm not a plumber. If you have any questions regarding carpentry I'll be sure to not help you.
thanks again


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

conroyian said:


> thanks 22....i appreciate the help. I am a contracter and do own my own business but I'm not a plumber. If you have any questions regarding carpentry I'll be sure to not help you.
> thanks again


Seriously, there is no way an honest professional plumber can diagnose your situation over the internet. You ain't a plumber and you are most likely breaking the law by plumbing for other people without a plumbing license.

Why should I make a bad situation worse by giving potentially incorrect advice when I cannot even see the situation? Now if I walked on the job I could tell you exactly what to do to fix this. 

Hey, how do we even know you are a contractor? Your first post on here is to try to get free advice from the real pros in a field you most likely have no business being in.


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## conroyian (May 12, 2008)

Conroy Home Improvement LLC

Look it up and please get off of my thread. How do I know your a contractor? It looks like you sit on the pc all day and bash people. I'm just looking for some advice from fellow contractors. Isn't this what this website is for or am I missing something?

Not that it's any of your business but I had a union plumber rough everything in for me. I can't get him on the phone right now and I was looking for some quick advice. No big deal.


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

22rifle said:


> Hey, how do we even know you are a contractor? Your first post on here is to try to get free advice from the real pros in a field you most likely have no business being in.


There is never any way of knowing who is real and who is not on the internet. We just take people at their word and there is really no other way to do it.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

conroyian said:


> Conroy Home Improvement LLC
> 
> Look it up and please get off of my thread. How do I know your a contractor? It looks like you sit on the pc all day and bash people. I'm just looking for some advice from fellow contractors. Isn't this what this website is for or am I missing something?
> 
> Not that it's any of your business but I had a union plumber rough everything in for me. I can't get him on the phone right now and I was looking for some quick advice. No big deal.


A newbie REALLY rockin' the Boat. NOT a good way to start. 

I understand your dissatisfaction........But that is no way to respond.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

conroyian said:


> please get off of my thread.



snicker...


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

22rifle said:


> snicker...



Hey you! Get off-a my Cloud!


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

You will have to admit though 22rifle........You can be obnoxious at times.........Just as I can be concerning certain topics. I have learned, sort of, that it is easier to ignore than to open new cans of worms!:sad:


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

*conroyian

*Ohio required you to hold a plumbers license to do plumbing work in your state, why are you doing plumbing without a license.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

MALCO.New.York said:


> You will have to admit though 22rifle........You can be obnoxious at times.........Just as I can be concerning certain topics. I have learned, sort of, that it is easier to ignore than to open new cans of worms!:sad:


Yeah, I just promised Nathan in a PM that I would back off a bit and asked him to holler at me if he sees me getting out of line.

I get sick and tired of the BS in real life and when the same jokers bring their BS onto this forum I tend to get a bit grumpy.

But that's OK. I will be spending more time over at a new place where the DIYers won't be allowed and less time here.


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## conroyian (May 12, 2008)

Ron, read my post. I said a union plumber roughed everything. I dont need a license to put a p trap in. Don't comment if you can't help or feel your to superior to. Like I said, I'll get a call back tonight and it will be all good...just thought I would try this site out.

22....again...I'm not a diy'r and maybe you should try getting off of your high horse.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

If you alter add or change plumbing on a system you need a licence, you said you installed the hammer arrester, so I ask again why are you doing plumbing without a license?

Simply questions not hard to answer it.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

22rifle said:


> Yeah, I just promised Nathan in a PM that I would back off a bit and asked him to holler at me if he sees me getting out of line.
> 
> I get sick and tired of the BS in real life and when the same jokers bring their BS onto this forum I tend to get a bit grumpy.
> 
> But that's OK. I will be spending more time over at a new place where the DIYers won't be allowed and less time here.


Do not go away. You have good input.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

conroyian said:


> Ron, read my post. I said a union plumber roughed everything. I dont need a license to put a p trap in. Don't comment if you can't help or feel your to superior to. Like I said, I'll get a call back tonight and it will be all good...just thought I would try this site out.
> 
> 22....again...I'm not a diy'r and maybe you should try getting off of your high horse.


This is not "High Horsing" nor is it a kick in the teeth. It is a way for all here to see what you are made of. A "Hazing" of sorts.

Read some of this post and see what I mean.

http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?t=39835&highlight=jason


The Licensing Issue is a real one. Something to think about.


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## conroyian (May 12, 2008)

MALCO.New.York said:


> This is not "High Horsing" nor is it a kick in the teeth. It is a way for all here to see what you are made of. A "Hazing" of sorts.
> 
> Read some of this post and see what I mean.
> 
> ...


 
well that's all good and I really don't mind being "hazed" but I really was just looking for a simple answer. never mind......carry on with your personal conversations on my thread.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

conroyian said:


> but I really was just looking for a simple answer. .


Don't take this the wrong way, we as plumbers need to protect our industry, we spent time and school and lots of hard labor to get to where we are today, If we let everyone thats come in here get the answers they are in search of we might as well stop being plumbers. 

If you get away with doing plumbing once, who says you won't stop there. 

My replies might seem harsh to you but to me there legit question/s, as your quoted, I really was just looking for a simple answer, but I see it won't get a answer.

Have a Good Day

Ron


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Come on Con...You do not own the thread. Posting something on-line, anywhere makes you subject to the opinion of more than 2 Billion Persons. Public Domain. This is NOT personal. Stop thinking this way.


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## conroyian (May 12, 2008)

Well, thanks for nothing. I wont be visiting this website anymore. Good luck to everyone.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

You see that shower valve in that picture, that valve is not a fast closing valve, a waste of time putting those pipes and caps in there.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

The only fast closing valves you will find in a residential home will be at the DW and the laundry, some moen valves can close quickly, depending on who is operating the valves.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Any quarter turn valve is a fast closing valve Ron.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

Ron The Plumber said:


> You see that shower valve in that picture, that valve is not a fast closing valve, a waste of time putting those pipes and caps in there.


It's a new PP with 1/4 turn porcelin X handles. The house does have a PRV, non-op many moons ago.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Ok agree, I just don't see the need for arresters in alot of the plumbing, maybe it's cause I have rarely installed arresters, so my knowledge on this subject in limited, I was just trying to look like I knew what I was talking about. You got me. :notworthy


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

skyhook said:


> It's a new PP with 1/4 turn porcelin X handles. The house does have a PRV, non-op many moons ago.


Here all shower valves have to be pressure balanced/temp controlled, is there no balancing spool attached to that valve somewhere?


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Here all shower valves have to be pressure balanced/temp controlled, is there no balancing spool attached to that valve somewhere?


No spool, exactly like the old 8" oc with new style cartridges, old style diverter.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

And it's allowed there?


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Boy this thread has way outlived the life of the poster.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

conroyian said:


> If you have any questions regarding carpentry I'll be sure to not help you.
> thanks again


Not a very friendly old chap. :no:


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*And just as I was looking for some advice on banging a nail....*


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *And just as I was looking for some advice on banging a nail....*


Nial Hammer Banging, sound like plumbing to me

How they all go together.:laughing:


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## SNC (Dec 2, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, we as plumbers need to protect our industry, we spent time and school and lots of hard labor to get to where we are today, If we let everyone thats come in here get the answers they are in search of we might as well stop being plumbers.
> 
> Ron


You better turn your eyes to the south then. I spent 2 years working on Dover AFB we put up 330 buildings and I did not see 1 American plummer in any of those buildings.
Seems as though Taco has you on their short list.:w00t:


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

Actually I am seeing more and more Romanians -- Ukranians -- Russians--- Mean fookers too. I stuck my head in a starbucks being built last week and was staring at a 1 1/2" brass union on a sink drain line......A guy looks at me and says "can healp you"? I gave him a quick Nope, you guys are doing great and left. I have been seeing these guys more and more and they are the new mexicans. They know just enough to stay alive and the building standing. They know no codes, just remember how someone else told them how to do it. That's why I like service work....ya gotta actually know things to be good!!


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## ct plumber (Jan 9, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, we as plumbers need to protect our industry, we spent time and school and lots of hard labor to get to where we are today, If we let everyone thats come in here get the answers they are in search of we might as well stop being plumbers.
> 
> If you get away with doing plumbing once, who says you won't stop there.
> 
> ...


Couldnt have said it better myself,iam so tired of these contractors(carpenters) that do it all,your right what the hell did i do all my schooling if some hammer nailing fool will do it himself.Here in CT any border jumper from mexico is doing something out of the back of his stolen Datsun.We need to stick together like doctors.Our state is so hard to get licensed in,but yet they dont crack down on these home depot carpenters/plumbers.:furious:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Funny thing about it, is they don't enforce that part of the code here, you just don't see them in residential applications, now granted in commercial applications they will be seen, but hay if you got water hammer in your home, chances are your pressure is too high, throw in that PRV and fix it, don't just put a band aid on it with arresters.


In Florida water hammer arrestors are required on all jobs including residential (the code does not differentiate between residential and commercial) where a fast closing valve (Solenoid) is used like on dish washers, ice makers or refrigerators with an water dispensor and clothes washers, they can not be the old style pipe, they also have to be accessible, a whole house system can be used or individual devices at each fast closing valve.

I won't claim to be a Plumber until after I get my license, I take the test next month and have been studying for it lately.

I am a Licensed Building Contractor and A/C Contractor.


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## essrmo (May 2, 2007)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Here water hammer arresters have be a mechanical device not just pipe and cap on it, which is not an approved device, they have to be a accessible.





skyhook said:


> A mechanical device would have to accessible because it will eventually fail. The old school system worked for 50 years +/-. The plumber said it wasn't nessesary and left it out but as soon as he turned the new valve on it hammered, so I made him put it back the way it was, and it worked.





Ron The Plumber said:


> Funny thing about it, is *they don't enforce that part of the code here*, you just don't see them in residential applications, now granted in commercial applications they will be seen, but hay if you got water hammer in your home, chances are your pressure is too high, throw in that PRV and fix it, don't just put a band aid on it with arresters.





KillerToiletSpider said:


> Suffice it to say I disagree with you, we'll leave it at that.





Ron The Plumber said:


> You see that shower valve in that picture, that valve is not a fast closing valve, *a waste of time putting those pipes and caps in there.*





Ron The Plumber said:


> The only fast closing valves you will find in a residential home will be at the DW and the laundry, some moen valves can close quickly, depending on who is operating the valves.





KillerToiletSpider said:


> Any quarter turn valve is a fast closing valve Ron.





Ron The Plumber said:


> *Ok agree, I just don't see the need for arresters in alot of the plumbing, maybe it's cause I have rarely installed arresters, so my knowledge on this subject in limited, I was just trying to look like I knew what I was talking about. You got me.* :notworthy


 did anyone hear about the hydro electric plant in Siberia that disintegrated due to uncontrolled water hammering?


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

I agreed with KTS not skyhook that it was a fast closing valve, but it did not need capped pipes which are useless when water logged, he probably had high water pressure, skyhook had no idea how to solve the issue, except with unreliable capped pipes, if the owner of the building dos not ever know they are there, what good are they, there worthless.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Now go ahead make a report it is good to see threads shut down more then needed around here, yep this thread should be closed also. I will thank the mod who closed it down.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I think you guys are all overcome by your oversized egos.

Take him at his word. He hired a licensed plumber, an incompetent one. Any of us who have been GC's for a while have been there. You hire a guy with the credentials, he doesn't do his job properly and now there's a problem. 

The guy who did the job won't deal with his mistake but the GC must. The GC already looks bad in the eyes of his customer because he hired an incompetent plumber. 

It was the "licensed and competent" plumber that created the problem. Telling him to hire a plumber is arrogant, but beyond that it does nothing to resolve his problem. 

So, sure, the law says you've got to be licensed. Clearly, in this case, licensed and competent are not synonymous. If you want to be helpful, tell him how to find a competent plumber. Clearly, in this case, a license is not proof of competency, merely a way to legally do a crappy job.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

thom said:


> I think you guys are all overcome by your oversized egos.
> 
> Take him at his word. He hired a licensed plumber, an incompetent one. Any of us who have been GC's for a while have been there. You hire a guy with the credentials, he doesn't do his job properly and now there's a problem.
> 
> ...


 
+1 

Too many times have i come across guys who have a license to do their trade and ain't got the first clue about what they are doing. I have ended up fixing the problems the licensed guys caused and couldn't fix far to often.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

If the plumber screwed it up then back charge him and hire another one.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

You heard him skyhook, you should call a licensed plumber, stop doing unlicensed work.


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## essrmo (May 2, 2007)

essrmo said:


> did anyone hear about the hydro electric plant in Siberia that disintegrated due to uncontrolled water hammering?


bttp :laughing:
hydro pneumatic stress results.


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

Arresters are now required here (as of July 1st) off each riser during any remodel where plans are drawn/permits pulled.
They must be accessible.
New code so I thought I would post.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Mellison said:


> Arresters are now required here (as of July 1st) off each riser during any remodel where plans are drawn/permits pulled.
> They must be accessible.
> New code so I thought I would post.


NYC does have some strange codes.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

Boy, you sure are showing us plumbers.

-Galvanized steel 2 hole straps on copper? Nice. Can you say e-l-e-c-t-r-o-l-y-s-i-s
-Air chambers (not a valid method of mitigating water hammer by most codes these days due to eventual water saturation) on a compression valved faucet.
-Solder joints bleeding all over the place with tits hanging

Boy, you sure showed us plumbers sky hook. Hey do you think you could drop by the PZ and give a lecture on pressure wave calculation vs. velocity and dynamic pressure since you're so good?



skyhook said:


> All this talk and no pictures.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Not to mention the valve is not even a scald guard valve, totally against code. A real time plumber. :laughing:


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

I didn't list that because there may be an existing tempering valve on the heater. Unlikely, but since I don't know one way or the other I didn't bust him on that.



Ron The Plumber said:


> Not to mention the valve is not even a scald guard valve, totally against code. A real time plumber. :laughing:


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

He will tell is just that, why of course, the soldering work is not pretty, running solder down the pipes, allowing beads of solder to stay on the fitting/s, real good looking job.


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## BuiltByMAC (Mar 11, 2006)

enough. it's an old thread w/ nothing but a buncha new bickering.

SSDD


Mac


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