# Arc Fault opinions.....



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

From what I gather, arc fault circuits are required under NEC code on basically all circuits in “dwelling” spaces. 

My state, Virginia, has amended every cycle.... to just cover bedrooms. 

My original intention on a custom home I am building was to go with a plug on neutral panel, and just build to the latest NEC code despite my locality not requiring it. 

After speaking to a friend who is a knowledgeable electrician, I am reconsidering. 

He says it is unnecessary, and would be a waste of money and effort. 
Nuisance faults....etc. 

My feeling is why not?
Few hundred extra for breakers, a bit extra for the panel. 
No extra labor. 
New build...so nuisance faults I assume won’t be an issue. 


How do you guys feel about it?

Thanks,
Jonathan 


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Start chasing issues with arc faults and led lighting, you will find out. We have a few call backs on every new home to chase faults....and where the owners want them, and a few have, regular breakers are installed. In jurisdictions without inspections. No fires yet.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Nuisance faults. We went to the code version which required it 100%, then it was rolled back to bedrooms.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Wait until you have to tell a customer they need to buy a new vacuum, fridge, hair dryer..... 'cuz their existing ones aren't new enough to be 'compatible' with AFCIs.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

It can be as simple as buying a new refrigerator. Arc faults don't always play well with motors, etc.

You can always install them, and disconnect the arc fault feature if it's tripping for no good reason.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

hdavis said:


> ........You can always install them, and disconnect the arc fault feature if it's tripping for no good reason.


Huh? How do you 'turn off the arc fault feature'? :blink: Who makes AFCI breakers with a switch on them to do so?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Huh? How do you 'turn off the arc fault feature'? :blink: Who makes AFCI breakers with a switch on them to do so?


I'll double check next time I'm at this customer's house, but I believe all that was done was to float the curly white wire. I don't believe the breaker was swapped out, but I could be wrong.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

hdavis said:


> I'll double check next time I'm at this customer's house, but I believe all that was done was to float the curly white wire. I don't believe the breaker was swapped out, but I could be wrong.


Taking the curly wire from the breaker off the neutral bar just opens the circuit. Yes, it may prevent the breaker from tripping.... but nothing on the circuit will work.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Where is the data that supports the need for these controllers and devices? I'm sure it exists somewhere although I haven't seen it. In order to amend NEC doesn't the science have to be demonstrated? 

Or is this just for manufacturers to make more $$$$??


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Arc Fault


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

You could always go with FP


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Irishslave said:


> Where is the data that supports the need for these controllers and devices? I'm sure it exists somewhere although I haven't seen it. In order to amend NEC doesn't the science have to be demonstrated?
> 
> Or is this just for manufacturers to make more $$$$??


This one is easy, put a fastener through romex. If it isn't an immediate shirt, it may burn the house in 25 years once it degrades.

I know of 2 in a subdivision where whoever drilled the holes for running romex put them way too close to the stud face, no nail plates. Lit 20-25 years later.

Then there is what His do. A woman friend of mine got married, and one of the early arguments was she hung everything on the wall with a 20d nail. Hubby said don't do that, wife said STFU. She kept at it with the nails.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Taking the curly wire from the breaker off the neutral bar just opens the circuit. Yes, it may prevent the breaker from tripping.... but nothing on the circuit will work.


Obviously I didn't catch what he actually did....


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Irishslave said:


> Where is the data that supports the need for these controllers and devices? I'm sure it exists somewhere although I haven't seen it. In order to amend NEC doesn't the science have to be demonstrated?
> 
> Or is this just for manufacturers to make more $$$$??



Lobbyists.


I personally wouldn’t use them if I wasn’t forced to. Why not just install indoor sprinkling too?


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

hdavis said:


> This one is easy, put a fastener through romex. If it isn't an immediate shirt, it may burn the house in 25 years once it degrades.
> 
> I know of 2 in a subdivision where whoever drilled the holes for running romex put them way too close to the stud face, no nail plates. Lit 20-25 years later.
> 
> Then there is what His do. A woman friend of mine got married, and one of the early arguments was she hung everything on the wall with a 20d nail. Hubby said don't do that, wife said STFU. She kept at it with the nails.


Chicago went around that with EMT req. As others have said how many service calls have there been for chasing ghost faults? 

Nail plates do save a lot of grief


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Clear back in 2005...


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Conceptually, I like arc fault breakers.

I definately don't like paying $35 per vs $5 per breaker.

The NFPA and insurance companies like these types of codes.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> .... In order to amend NEC doesn't the science have to be demonstrated? .....


 You have to provide supporting documentation.


Apparently, 'theory' is now enough.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

How many Federal Pacifics are still out there? How many with Aluminum wiring?.....Lots


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

What happens when this guy comes along?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> What happens when this guy comes along?


It's called 'electrocution'. :whistling


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Irishslave said:


> What happens when this guy comes along?


Lesson learned: Do not bite the line that feeds ya...


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

These always concern me. They love to slither into my garage and then disappear. I've caught all but one. Hope he found his way out. 

I'm awash in reptiles around here. the lizards don't bother me as much as the snakes


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

In theory AFCI protection is good. In reality if you look at them wrong they will trip. Then it's always misplaced blame on the electrician when they trip constantly.

If you can avoid them do it until they get these things to work right.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

rselectric1 said:


> In theory AFCI protection is good. In reality if you look at them wrong they will trip. Then it's always misplaced blame on the electrician when they trip constantly.
> 
> 
> 
> If you can avoid them do it until they get these things to work right.




I’m so glad I asked. 

I’m getting the feeling that our consensus is a resounding ....no. 

Duly noted. 
Sticking with tried and true. 

(If you could do me the favor of perusing my “dirty power” from standby generator thread.....)
(( I’m serious...but I don’t want to beg....))




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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Thank you. 

Much appreciated. 




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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Yep, arc faults give loads of nuisance trips, just like GFCIs did in the early days. They don't seem to be getting the kinks out of them nearly as quickly as they finally did with the GFCIs. Been fighting arc faults on our current build with saws and whatnot.

I wouldn't put a one in if they weren't mandated.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I'll throw my worthless opinion in as well. :blink:

If you don't have to, don't. 

They were required years ahead of the technology being even half-assed decent.

They wreak havoc with LED's, motors, all kinds of stuff.

Basically what everyone else said. :blink:


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Where's your genny thread??


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> Where's your genny thread??




It’s in the planning stage. 

(Watching a Spider-Man movie with my kid. 
It’s actually decent. 
Priorities. 
(No arc faults either))


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> ......Been fighting arc faults on our current build with saws and whatnot.......



Cound be a ground fault.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Cound be a ground fault.


Moved our center of operations to the garage, which is GFCI only. Problem solved.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Joasis said:


> Start chasing issues with arc faults and led lighting, you will find out. We have a few call backs on every new home to chase faults....and where the owners want them, and a few have, regular breakers are installed. In jurisdictions without inspections. No fires yet.




We have a ton of high-end LED lighting. 

Coves that project light along the ceilings from the tops of curved walls. 

Not rope lights. 
Custom made linear arrays. 

Sounds like another reason to avoid arc faults. 

I had no idea LED’s were more susceptible. 
I would’ve assumed the transformers cleaned things up a bit. 



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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I don't know why an LED would be a problem, since it has no moving parts, but in the spec homes I am building, they are 100% LED and call backs to change breakers is normal. Some of the circuits have nothing but lights. Microwave trips them also, and the fridge. 

I had to paint some doors in a garage of one house after trim out...and of course, the arc faults don't like my Graco....so I bought an extra breaker to install, for just such occasions.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Joasis said:


> I don't know why an LED would be a problem,.........


It could be the drivers cause a signal the breakers interpret as an arc fault.


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## jameslandry454 (9 mo ago)

For people not knowledgeable on all things electricity like me: what is an arc fault circuit breaker?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

jameslandry454 said:


> For people not knowledgeable on all things electricity like me: what is an arc fault circuit breaker?


Wait.... what? You have a website dedicated to electrical............?


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