# AFCI Problem



## lbwireman (Dec 26, 2006)

Hi All,
We just finished trimout on a 500 sq ft Bedrm/bathroom/wardrobe room addition for a customer. Our local AHJs previously went with a "soft" interpretation of NEC Art. 210.12 and only required that receptacle outlets in bdrms be AFCI protected. They have now switched to a "hard" interpretation, in accordance with the Art.100 definition of "outlet". We are now required to AFCI protect ALL outlets in the bedroom (including lighting). Problem: In this addition we put all outlets subject to this Art. on one circuit fed from an AFCI breaker in the main load center (new Murray 200A side by side combination panel). There is a ceilngfan w/ light kit receiving its 120V power through a hard wired SPST switch. The ceiling fan speed and light kit dimmer are controlled by a built-in remote receiver and a hand held remote controller. There are 4 incandescent can lights receiving their power through a switched dimmer. There is a flourescent ceiling luminaire in the wardrobe. The AFCI OC device remains set until a load is put on the circuit (energize any of the switches) at which time, the luminaire(s) will come on for about a half second then the AFCI trips. This also happens if an incandescent floor lamp is plugged into the first receptacle outlet in the circuit and turned on. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
Sean


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Perhaps you got a faulty breaker? The lamps should have no arcing that would trip the AFCI, the fan could possibly be the culprit.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

Check the neutral carefully. Make sure it isn't crossed with the EGC anywhere, or that it is tied in with the neutral of another circuit. You cannot use a multifeed unless you use a 2-pole afci breaker.
<my experience with AFCIs has been 95%+ of the problems are neutral related.


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Check the neutral carefully. Make sure it isn't crossed with the EGC anywhere, or that it is tied in with the neutral of another circuit. You cannot use a multifeed unless you use a 2-pole afci breaker.
> <my experience with AFCIs has been 95%+ of the problems are neutral related.


I agree but would like to add. Check for any tight staples on your wire as the afci is more sensitive than a female loosing her poodle. Staples are required to be snug but not tight.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> I agree but would like to add. Check for any tight staples on your wire as the afci is more sensitive than a female loosing her poodle. Staples are required to be snug but not tight.


I don't even want to know about the poodle comment, but keep in mind this is a final inspection meaning the walls are sealed up.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Oh and also just remember for the future that everything in bedrooms is AFCI, despite what some nice guy inspector wants to let you slide on.
It's tough to hold and inspector to his words, it always seems he's on vacation in time for final and you get his flunky


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Sparky Joe said:


> Oh and also just remember for the future that everything in bedrooms is AFCI, despite what some nice guy inspector wants to let you slide on.
> It's tough to hold and inspector to his words, it always seems he's on vacation in time for final and you get his flunky


Unless of course your area does not yet require AFCI's. :thumbsup:


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

Sparky Joe said:


> I don't even want to know about the poodle comment, but keep in mind this is a final inspection meaning the walls are sealed up.


I just know that changing a breaker would not be advice I would give to someone with experience as it seems to be an insult as changing a breaker would be the first thing he already tried.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> I just know that changing a breaker would not be advice I would give to someone with experience as it seems to be an insult as changing a breaker would be the first thing he already tried.


I also thought about changing the breaker, but of course for inspection the inspector wants it there and will be flipping all switches and checking all receptacles. If something trips after 2 seconds you don't pass.

On that same note and because I hate AFCI's, perhaps you could swap stuff around according to how it's labeled in the panel, just so the inspector thinks the bedrooms are covered, but in actuallity you put the AFCI where it wouldn't trip and then swap it out when he's gone.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

So "lbwireman" where in Long Beach is your office? your website doesn't list it, though Mr. Lieberman looks like he's srtraight out of Utah :w00t: 

I grew up between 'the diagonal' and Palo Verde. Two houses away from the little golfcourse there on Carson, then moved a mile away to the Lakewood side of Carson and went to DeMille middle school and Lakewood high and Patrick Henry Elem. Just curious if that's your area or what your area is?
Probably sound like a ...(avoiding offensive words), but just homesick when it doesn't get above 15 degrees here in Utah lately.


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## faber307 (Jan 7, 2007)

*Afci*

:thumbsup: Every issue I've come across so far with an arc fault breaker tripping has been from a crossed neutral from another circuit.


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## lbwireman (Dec 26, 2006)

We're just NW of Downey and South. Been here, in one form or another fer 'bout 30+ yrs. I tried other states, always wound up back here at home. Long Beach = home. Sorry yur homesick.


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## lbwireman (Dec 26, 2006)

Yur a devious man, Joe. (not a bad suggestion, in a dire situation, tho, homeboy. :laughing: )


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## lbwireman (Dec 26, 2006)

*Thanks, all*

Thanks for the feedback. 
We won't be back on that site until Fri. but I'm gonna print this thread out and give it to the journeyman & apprentice running that job. JohnJ's comment re: a possible neutral/EG fault got my "troubleshooter's tuning fork" a' ringin" even louder (Bob and Chris over on the Mike Holt forum also pointed in this direction) so I think I'm gonna go have a looksee myself as well. I'll definitely let you all know how it turns out. Thanks to all of you for the help.
Sean:thumbup:


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

Forgot to point out the possibility of a bad AFCI breaker. Wouldn't be the first for me....


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Forgot to point out the possibility of a bad AFCI breaker. Wouldn't be the first for me....


I think I pointed that out in the first reply......

So sounds like your right near Lakewood Mall, I may be wrong but I think that's the area


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

So you did.:thumbsup:


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## MO-AMPS (Jan 16, 2007)

I found out 9 times out 10 wireman roped it with 14/3 or 12/3 it will get you all the time .............me personaly what I would do switch breaker in breaker box to pass inspection then accesss the situation to see the reasonable solution.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

MO-AMPS said:


> I found out 9 times out 10 wireman roped it with 14/3 or 12/3 it will get you all the time .............me personaly what I would do switch breaker in breaker box to pass inspection then accesss the situation to see the reasonable solution.


Translation;
I have found that 9 times out of 10 the electrician wired with 14/3 or 12/3, that will get you every time...................Me personally, I would switch the breaker in the panel to pass inspection, then assess the situation to find the reasonable solution. :thumbsup: 


Just teasing you Mo-Amps :jester: Don't take it wrong, it's good to have your input


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## lbwireman (Dec 26, 2006)

*Problem Solved!*

To all who responded to my request for help, After disconnecting the grounded conductor and and the grounding conductor for the branch circuit in question, they were rung out (ohmed) and showed continuity between the two. It was then simply a matter of isolating the location of the fault along the cable. Staples were pulled, sheathing was inspected for penetrations and testing of each cable section between points of connection was conducted. The offending segment was identified, fault (contact between grounded and grounding conductors) was cleared. Problem solved. Apparently the insulation on the grounded conductor was inadequately applied during the manufacturing process and the flaw hidden from view by the NM sheath. Thank you, one and all, for your input. I am now considerably more informed re: the operation of AFCIs, and we would have spent a great deal more "head scratchin'" time without your contributions. I posted this to the MH board as well, as several members there also were kind enough to expand my "AFCI knowledge base" Once again, Thanks.
Sean:thumbup:


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

You're welcome. It's good to save someone the headache I've already had! By the way, You will notice some of the same people (like me) participate on both forums. (and others as well nline2long: )


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Wow, what a tough one to track......

I would never suspect the cable to have a fault within it, I would've checked the receptacles(after seeing the continuity) for the ground touching the neutral screws, but beyond that I wouldv'e been baffled.

At least if you didn't pigtail it could be more easily troubleshot :laughing: (referrence to another post)


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

lbwireman said:


> To all who responded to my request for help, After disconnecting the grounded conductor and and the grounding conductor for the branch circuit in question, they were rung out (ohmed) and showed continuity between the two. It was then simply a matter of isolating the location of the fault along the cable. Staples were pulled, sheathing was inspected for penetrations and testing of each cable section between points of connection was conducted. The offending segment was identified, fault (contact between grounded and grounding conductors) was cleared. Problem solved. Apparently the insulation on the grounded conductor was inadequately applied during the manufacturing process and the flaw hidden from view by the NM sheath. Thank you, one and all, for your input. I am now considerably more informed re: the operation of AFCIs, and we would have spent a great deal more "head scratchin'" time without your contributions. I posted this to the MH board as well, as several members there also were kind enough to expand my "AFCI knowledge base" Once again, Thanks.
> Sean:thumbup:


Thanks for listening. Less pressure on a staple will make life more comfortable for an AFCI and GFCI breaker problem.


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## MSSI (Mar 25, 2006)

lbwireman said:


> To all who responded to my request for help, After disconnecting the grounded conductor and and the grounding conductor for the branch circuit in question, they were rung out (ohmed) and showed continuity between the two. It was then simply a matter of isolating the location of the fault along the cable. Staples were pulled, sheathing was inspected for penetrations and testing of each cable section between points of connection was conducted. The offending segment was identified, fault (contact between grounded and grounding conductors) was cleared. Problem solved. Apparently the insulation on the grounded conductor was inadequately applied during the manufacturing process and the flaw hidden from view by the NM sheath. Thank you, one and all, for your input. I am now considerably more informed re: the operation of AFCIs, and we would have spent a great deal more "head scratchin'" time without your contributions. I posted this to the MH board as well, as several members there also were kind enough to expand my "AFCI knowledge base" Once again, Thanks.
> Sean:thumbup:



I stripped back a piece of 12/2 the other day and found the neutral shrink tubed....This was a repair done at the factory...I dont know if its where they splice a new run of wire in or maybe where the machine stops for the night. Who knows.. What are the chances of finding that 6" of repair right where its cut for a switch box??


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

MSSI said:


> I stripped back a piece of 12/2 the other day and found the neutral shrink tubed....This was a repair done at the factory...I dont know if its where they splice a new run of wire in or maybe where the machine stops for the night. Who knows.. What are the chances of finding that 6" of repair right where its cut for a switch box??


That's interesting, of everyone else in here that has run miles and miles of romex, I think that's the first I've heard of such a thing.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Actually I have seen this a few times. The first was a break I traced to the middle of a cable using a tracer. The signal just stopped at the break. 
I found a splice UNDER (inside) the sheathing wrapped with one wrap of black tape. It was butt joined (brazed?) with no other mechanical connection. The joint simply broke/separated.

Then I think two or three more times I have seen the shrink wrapped splice inside NM sheathing.


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## MSSI (Mar 25, 2006)

Ive pulled miles of this stuf and its the first time _I _saw this....I was dying to strip it back to see if it was spliced/joined, but I had about 8" comming out of the switch box on a home run, and 6" of it was shrink tube....I guess I could re-shrink tube it now that I got the inspection. But I dont keep white shrink tube handy,,,,,, and am I realy that curious??


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