# Hiring mason labors



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

jb4211 said:


> If you lived closer, I'd work for free when I'm available just to learn. I always admired masonry. I think it's more artist than skill.


That is a very sound compliment and thank you. I would love to have someone like you,however my education as far as masonry goes would probably not be really suitable for some people(hence I take every apprentice under 5 year condition) (though I am sure you would still enjoy it).

This days in demand around here: stucco(sand and cement/acrylic),cultured stone,glass blocks,tile,repoints of all sorts.

This days (unfortunately) not in demand around here: natural stones,brick,block, exterior tiles (marble,granite), professional plasters (stucco with marble,pebble)...

Market is slowly dying and there is really no art left to it...around here anyway...

For three options we had as far as natural stone goes were tyndall(limestone),gneiss and travertine.

Tyndall has priced itself out of market,because now you have to buy it by tonn...You buy some,use quarter of a ton and then go through head aches of hauling it away and letting it sit in your backyard/warehouse for when again will people need you to install it for 20/sq ft...some guy with a trowel installs cultured stone materials inclusive for sa low as 12 sq ft...feel the difference?

Gneiss priced itself out because they bring it from Toronto and generally speaking smaller companies like me don't get higher end jobs on interior/exterior gneiss installations...People who order stuff like that prefer being charged out of their ass than trust someone like myself to provide the quality...they own million dollars houses and reastically they care more for fancy sticker than good work.

As far as travertine goes,people have this stupid idea that only thing its good for is backsplashes and washroom tiles...

Last time I worked with natural stone worth calling natural stone was 7 months ago...in september I build partition wall for a landscaper from river rock(pebbles)...and people wonder why only pictures I post are of cultured stone :laughing:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> Last time I worked with natural stone worth calling natural stone was 7 months ago...in september I build partition wall for a landscaper from river rock(pebbles)...and people wonder why only pictures I post are of cultured stone :laughing:


Round rocks can be a pain to work with. I like to take a 14" blade and make them squares lol.


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## zaydq (Nov 17, 2011)

I too admire masonry work... but on plenty of jobs ive been on the mason treats the laborer like utter crap. I recall the one kid literally working non-stop, still getting yelled at. To my untrained eye he looked quite quick too... not quick enough I suppose. Poor guy worked through his lunch while the bricklayer sat down for lunch.


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## MichiganPaint (Jan 4, 2012)

6stringmason said:


> There out there, but its been so ingrained in many of them that you need to go to school to make a decent living, or that you dont want to be a dirty construction worker, that finding them is like finding a needle in a haystack.


I went to school and received a business degree but stayed a painter. It was that or cut my salary in half and wear a tie. No thanks. The only reason I finished the degree was because I don't like leaving things incomplete.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

zaydq said:


> I too admire masonry work... but on plenty of jobs ive been on the mason treats the laborer like utter crap. I recall the one kid literally working non-stop, still getting yelled at. To my untrained eye he looked quite quick too... not quick enough I suppose. Poor guy worked through his lunch while the bricklayer sat down for lunch.


Yeah that's unfortunate. I worked for a couple guys like that. they worked for guys who were worse. I remember one telling me that he mixed a batch of mud that was too wet and the mason just dumped it on his head. A labourer that I hired for a while told me that he called one of the older masons old and slow and the guy threw a handful of lime in his face. Haha, possible blindness cracks me up. 

I think as the labour force shrinks that that attitude will disappear. I know I don't have it. I try to thank guys for their help after each day. And when I get frustrated with them I try to explain why I'm frustrated and that if their not doing their job properly, I'm not making money, and if I'm not making money there's no work for them or myself. I'm also young enough to remember being a labourer and not knowing anything, trying to learn while still hustling. It's tough work. I'm glad i don't labour for anyone but myself.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> I'm also young enough to remember being a labourer and not knowing anything, trying to learn while still hustling. It's tough work. I'm glad i don't labour for anyone but myself.


Yeah, I was screamed at like everyone else.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Question is not whether or not you have been screamed on(we all have been) but whether or not it made you a better worker/understand trade as well as you do now...thats one masonry is one of tougher gigs to be in and thats why not everyone can be mason.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I don't know if it makes anyone learn anything, but it makes them hustle.


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## DJ9222 (Apr 28, 2009)

*Returning GI,s*

I wonder if one source of future help might be the returning GI,s they sure didn,t make a lot of money in the service,and I bet they know what hard work is. When I was a little guy my father had several Vietnam vets working for him and they worked there ass off, some of them actually stayed in the trade and became first rate masons..:thumbup:


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

i havent had help in about 3 months now.i hired a mason/laborer and he wanted half of what i made on my job.my equipment,my job,my name..no.i paid him 20.00 cash.how did i get paid back?he charged items to a customer at the lumber yard for himself,drew up money from the same customer,while i was working another job,and finally stole my 16 foot trailer and honda oddessy four wheeler.
im on a rather large job now,4500 sq ft of thin stone.working by myself.i tried to hire help,but we are in the middle of an oil boom in my area and no one wants to work for 10-12 bucks an hour.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Did you have him charged? Do you know where he lives?

I'm willing to posse up and go gitim


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

stacker said:


> i havent had help in about 3 months now.i hired a mason/laborer and he wanted half of what i made on my job.my equipment,my job,my name..no.i paid him 20.00 cash.how did i get paid back?he charged items to a customer at the lumber yard for himself,drew up money from the same customer,while i was working another job,and finally stole my 16 foot trailer and honda oddessy four wheeler.
> im on a rather large job now,4500 sq ft of thin stone.working by myself.i tried to hire help,but we are in the middle of an oil boom in my area and no one wants to work for 10-12 bucks an hour.


pay me 35 cash and if i was there you got yourself guy with all his own tools,experience,trailer,3k towable mixer and an apprentice to labor :clap:

30 hours a week max


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> I'm willing to posse up and go gitim


Sign me up...got a piece of re-bar and baseball bat sitting in truck always...you kno...just in case:whistling


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

damn stacker, that is some ****! I hope you got something on him?


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*labor*

All the postings regarding tenders were very interesting.They obviously were reflections of the authors past experiences. I believe if one was to uncover the cause of not being able to "find good help" one must look within. As the old saying goes nothing ever happens to you all things happen through you. One must ask yourself some very serious questions ,and try your utmost to answer them honestly. The questions have various components to them. Some of them are as follows. How do i regard my tenders,as a valuable asset to my co. or as a inconvience to be tolerated? Are my jobsites a place of harmony or a den of disfunction? Do i require all wokers to treat each other with a certain modicum of respect or do i allow some to berate others? What about pay. Do all my workers earn a pay at the end of the year allowing them to support a small family or just eek by? Remember even 100 $ a hr. if you only worked 100 hrs does not cut it. When you went about setting up your co. did you use the buisness model of the co.that opperates out of the local gin mill or the most successful co. you have knowledge of? The most successful construction co. in the city of my birth opperates in 38 states has a yearly volume of 6 billion $ with a b. A laborer working for them has no trouble making 60-75 k a year with benefits to die for. Which co. would you want to work for his or yours.? To quote Daniel Burnham make no small plans they do not have the ability to stir mens souls.


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## artiospainting (Mar 16, 2011)

I'm a painter and the complaints the same one of the problems in my field is every buddy thinks they can paint they don't think there's a skill level and when you tell them they cant paint they get pouty and start showing you they can what you see is someone dabbing insisting hes not only painting he wants a raise. there's dabbers and there's stroker the dabber will say. [look how good i am inching a long] say you can do this job your self in 3 day so with his help it takes 3 days now he says look how fast we [WE] got this done. don't you think its time you give me more money i'm doing all your work because your always gone. [running for supplies making bids getting things for him because of little messes that aker. hes fast a nuff to keep you running as in putting fires out ] I didn't say you still didn't do 90%of the work plus ran you ass off. know a few day earlier you thought you were tired and needed help. as you get older you body hurts and drags you can cry all you wont in side. to you your surviving to them your just a old crazy man. they'll let you run circles around them and wont have a clue that your doing something profitable there response will be look what i did.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

I think when you take the hod away from hod carrying you might get labourers you are not so good. When they have to use the hod, especially on ladder work, only an experienced good hoddie will normally turn up for the job. The average site labourer knows that he wouldn't last five minutes.
Good hoddies see themselves as the elite of the labourers and usually take great pride in being good at the job.
Generally their pay is not much less than the tradesmen, and often on pricework gangs of 4 and 2, or 2 and 1 the gang has an equal split.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> I think when you take the hod away from hod carrying you might get labourers you are not so good. When they have to use the hod, especially on ladder work, only an experienced good hoddie will normally turn up for the job. The average site labourer knows that he wouldn't last five minutes.
> Good hoddies see themselves as the elite of the labourers and usually take great pride in being good at the job.
> Generally their pay is not much less than the tradesmen, and often on pricework gangs of 4 and 2, or 2 and 1 the gang has an equal split.


I don't get it. Are you saying we should bring back the hod and forget about brick tongs and pails? There haven't been hods used around here for 50 years. 

I do agree. A GOOD labourer should earn near as much as a good installer, so long as he can double the pace. Not many are born as good labourers. And few want to stay labourers more than a few weeks, they see someone laying to the line and say "how hard is that?" Then they want a trowel. I've met very few young lads who are willing to work hard, and masonry labouring is one of the hardest jobs out there.
Between the druggies and the lazy ones (often both) I find it impossible to find anyone.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

My whole life(including period of time I labored personally) we lifted brick using pulley and rope...block was also lifted by pulley and rope in large steel pan and two of us had to mount it up...however I had to lift bucket full of mud up scaffolding manually..if mason wanted to eff with you...he would say it was too soupy..and like that 3-4 times..until he was content with you sweating like a dog and out of breath...

Its a good lesson.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> I don't get it. Are you saying we should bring back the hod and forget about brick tongs and pails? There haven't been hods used around here for 50 years.
> 
> .


The hod is still used here, but if it hasn't been used for 50 years where you are there wouldn't be much point bringing it back as it would be hard to find anyone to run it.
It might be old fashioned, but it's still a good way of getting up materials on many jobs. A good hoddie can balance the hod on his shoulder and use both hands on the ladder to get up really quick.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> The hod is still used here, but if it hasn't been used for 50 years where you are there wouldn't be much point bringing it back as it would be hard to find anyone to run it.
> It might be old fashioned, but it's still a good way of getting up materials on many jobs. A good hoddie can balance the hod on his shoulder and use both hands on the ladder to get up really quick.


Just watch out they don't have any whiskey in the morning or they'll end up like Tim Finnegan


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> The hod is still used here, but if it hasn't been used for 50 years where you are there wouldn't be much point bringing it back as it would be hard to find anyone to run it.
> It might be old fashioned, but it's still a good way of getting up materials on many jobs. A good hoddie can balance the hod on his shoulder and use both hands on the ladder to get up really quick.


My longest ladder is 24', any more than that I set staging :thumbsup:

Painted my whole house with staging lol. Everyone made fun, but I was comfy.


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

I would be interested in seeing a photo of a hod in use.

I've seen illustrations, but I can't imagine one in use. Whenever I've had to get brick or block up somewhere by hand, I just lifted it up in shifts on a scaffolding. Brick with forks and block one at a time.

I can remember material carts for moving stuff. Just a flat-bed wheelbarrow. I can remember mixing mortar in a trough. And I can remember the first "bobcat" with no cab cover or guards of any kind.

I don't personally remember bringing mortar up on a scaffolding further than it could go with a shovel, or being lifted up in a tub on a pallet. Except for a few chimney jobs where it was hauled in five-gallon buckets. But I suppose if I had to do it by hand, I would get a tub up there, then bring up the sand and water and masonry mix by hand. At least I'd start that way.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

After Stuarts post I looked it up on youtube. A couple good vids. All from the british isles of course. 

I work mainly residential. I'm way smaller scale than the guys that I used to work for but on most jobs we moved mud with pails and bricks with tongs. On larger jobs where there was a fork lift or zoom boom we would put a cube of brick and a mortar tray up one section of scaffold, maybe 2 then move up the rest of the way using tongs and pails. Me being small time I use tongs and pails always. Surprising how quick you can move a few hundred brick 60' up

Pulleys scare the **** out of me. Having someone at the top miss the tongs and have a shower of bricks falling down can do that to you I guess


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

cleveman said:


> I would be interested in seeing a photo of a hod in use.
> .


Here's one of a hoddie running the Reading half marathon carrying a hod and 12 bricks.
That's typical of the modern hoddie.
The old ones would have done a full one and then gone back to work in the afternoon.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> Here's one of a hoddie running the Reading half marathon carrying a hod and 12 bricks.
> That's typical of the modern hoddie.
> The old ones would have done a full one and then gone back to work in the afternoon.
> View attachment 62712


Doubt I d let this guy on my site.


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

Thanks for the post.

That is a somber looking individual.

I can't say that I yet fully understand the use of the hod. Why not just my ten brick in the forks?

I can understand that you may be able to climb a ladder and use one hand, but I've never seen a ladder on a masonry job.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Because the hod is on a pole, you can pass the bricks up further without having to climb. Can also fill the hod with mud and dump it on a board. In the past it also held a jug of beer quite well. Brick tongs can't do that.

Brick tongs and forklifts have only been around for so long. Hods have been around for centuries.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> Doubt I d let this guy on my site.


I went to London/Paris for my senior trip in 88, it was quite the culture shock. The "Goth" scene was very popular, and out in the open, much like tattoos in general are becoming here in the last 10 years.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

JBM said:


> I went to London/Paris for my senior trip in 88, it was quite the culture shock. The "Goth" scene was very popular, and out in the open, much like tattoos in general are becoming here in the last 10 years.


I believe you...but I am no tattoe,no piercing(besides left ear,that I dont wear on construction site) no weird haircut guy and I think this just does not suit masonry laborer etiquette.

I am not anal about shaving or clean shirt since I am scruffy and dirty most of the time myself from all the work I do,but have decency to look like human being and not scare my customers away by your Piercingstein look...


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## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

As of now you can't see my tattoos if I'm wearing a t-shirt. If I layer down to an athletic shirt you can see them. What's the consensus for going shirt-less in the summer on a job site. Is it acceptable practice to allow it or no? How strict of a rule is it?


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

You can dress however you like, as long as you aren't looking up my kilt.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

I dont mind tattoes its really everyone's persnal business and they cant ever make you look as bad as three lip piercings or crazy pink colored haircut.

As far as summer shirtless etiquette works,I have worked several times without shirt and I have been taught that:

1. Never work shirtless with female in the prescence,especially spouse,daughter of the customer
2.Never work shirtless in front of seniors.

Both would be acts of disrespect towards HO and his family.

In front of HO or any other man is ok.


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## Fundi (Jan 5, 2009)

TheItalian204 said:


> Doubt I d let this guy on my site.


I think if i knew he ran a half marathon carrying a full hod I would hire him . One would get used to the piercings real fast if he was good. When I was in high school your one pierced ear would of freaked me out. things change.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Fundi said:


> I think if i knew he ran a half marathon carrying a full hod I would hire him . One would get used to the piercings real fast if he was good. When I was in high school your one pierced ear would of freaked me out. things change.


Quiet honestly I dont think it would have to do with him being a bad man because of his 3 piercings,more with impression his three piercings would leave on HO...

I remember back in a day i knew amazing roofer who is still roofing who had sketchiest crew ever. You could tell he pulled kids from bad neighborhouds,tattos up to neck **** among lines of: "Death before dishonor" and etc.

Quiet honestly I was not impressed but turned out their fav song was "Spongebob square pants"(they would sing it on site)

Quiet hilarious,so you certainly can't judge book by its cover,but its not how HOs portray construction guys.

And considering that us,masons/bricklayers are the gold of trades(mainly due to the fact that you don't just get shoved into our trade because you had nowhere else to go,its because you had interest/family history/you liked it) I highly suggest to support positive image masons/brickies support among trades and HOs.

I have been working intensevly to prove to most of HO that I am not drunken,wife beaten bastard who had to get shoved into construction because he had criminal record and its been working.

Mostly also because I hire normal people. As I said I dont care how you look as long as it does not affect my business. And if someone's lip piercing will make difference whether I get that refferal or not..I would probably stick to hiring guy without one. Quiet honestly I am just looking out for my best interest. Its nothing personal,just business.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Compared to some of the hoddies I've worked with that guy looks quite normal.
Tattoos are not really a problem here, as many ex members of the armed forces have them.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm more interested in how someone acts towards homeowners than what they look like. If they're respectful and sound halfway intelligent when they talk that's fine with me. 

And there really are a lot of people who get into masonry because they have no other options. The old theory of strong back and weak mind persists and will for a long time. I had one guy (who only lasted with me a day) say that he got into the trade because his dad said he was so dumb the only job he could get was as a bricklayer.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> I'm more interested in how someone acts towards homeowners than what they look like. If they're respectful and sound halfway intelligent when they talk that's fine with me.
> 
> And there really are a lot of people who get into masonry because they have no other options. The old theory of strong back and weak mind persists and will for a long time. I had one guy (who only lasted with me a day) say that he got into the trade because his dad said he was so dumb the only job he could get was as a bricklayer.


As I said above I dont care how people look. I would not let someone like that guy on my site because I know people can be prejudiced and this has nothing to do with my personal preferences as far as the guy's looks.
A lot of HO are more concerned of a laborer looking more like a bandit than like a laborer.
Thats where I was going with this.

Now as far as what that guy's dad said...he must have been a totally ignorant man. Not everything in everyone's lives works out the way they want to. I know ton of bricklayers with university degree(including myself) who would not trade the trade for the desk job.


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## wood_rots (Dec 6, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Don't get me started on the cellphones and text messaging.


ANY one with electronic crap goes home for the day. Period.

All electronic items belong to me and will be encased within the grout cells.

Only need to do it once. (as even though these are 'he-men' they talk like little girls amongst them-selves) Even as a 'lowly' laborer.
(helps if your arms are thicker than than his thighs though)


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

wood_rots said:


> All electronic items belong to me and will be encased within the grout cells.


I like this


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