# Butchered joists



## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

What are some solutions to the butchered joists the plumbers always seem to leave in their wake?


Doing a remodel on my first flr bath .....sistered up all the joists....now I have to play plumber and cut in the drain for the new tub ~ which is right where the old tub was.

The previous plumber hacked a good portion of the joist out...I'll probably wind up doing similar to my new sister joist.

So what do you do?
Slap a couple of 2x4's on either side of the 2x8's?


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## HusqyPro (Aug 3, 2009)

Good question for the plumbers:


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## naptown CR (Feb 20, 2009)

or use 3/4 ply nt much choice there. Simpson or soneone makes a repair plate for this but I think it is for TJI's


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Is there room for a new lolly column?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

naptown CR said:


> or use 3/4 ply nt much choice there. Simpson or soneone makes a repair plate for this but I think it is for TJI's


I've got some 3/4 left over from the floor...I also have 2x4's...LOL.



I remember seeing those plates here...drilling it out would certainly be better than hacking/notching the joists.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Is there room for a new lolly column?


It'll piss the wife off when it runs through the dryer :laughing:



....we had one added for the dormer addition....the archy over engineered the ridge beam [triple micro lam]...so the building dept. "decided" to make us put in an additional lolly.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

If the drain lands center of the joist, we usually header it off or full-depth, full-length sister it to one side so the notching doesn't matter.


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## HusqyPro (Aug 3, 2009)

Celtic said:


> It'll piss the wife off when it runs through the dryer :laughing:


Your wifes reaction:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

This particular joist is like the bathroom king of joists.
Probably in THE worst possible spot....

The tub drain assembly goes through it at one end....at the other the toilet flange/soil pipe makes it's appearance in the bath.
So the joist gets cut to allow that mess in....and gets blocked with a 4" hole in the blocking.












You can just make out where the old toilet flange was there to the left by the clamp


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Joist are over rated. :whistling


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Drum traps are so yummy... :laughing:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

neolitic said:


> Joist are over rated. :whistling






...and here I am....concerned with weight even after I removed the cast iron tub to be replaced with a fiberglass or acrylic tub that weighs less then my kids do.

Think I can return the 2x8's to HD :laughing:


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## BKFranks (Feb 19, 2008)

How much does that tub weigh full of water with a 250 pound person in it?


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

ChrWright said:


> Drum traps are so yummy... :laughing:


That one had been replaced
some time in the late 50's(?).
Then in the 70's someone added
a P-trap up stream. 
They are totally amazed at how
fast the tub drains now! :laughing::clap:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

BKFranks said:


> How much does that tub weigh full of water with a 250 pound person in it?



No one is inviting your fat ass over here :laughing:


The tub will always weigh the same:thumbsup:
What's IN the tub will vary....gallons of water, number of kids, volume of toys :laughing:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Celtic said:


> ...Think I can return the 2x8's to HD :laughing:


If you're just gonna go and
drill holse in 'em anyway,
the plywood sandwich is far
stronger than sistering with
dimensional. :thumbsup:
(Notice that the old gaps were 
filled as well.)


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

While mine is not nearly as hacked as that bath was....those pictures are worth the thousand words.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Celtic said:


> While mine is not nearly as hacked as that bath was....those pictures are worth the thousand words.


Certainly was enough pain
in their acquisition. 
:laughing:


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Wood was invented to be cut with a saw...


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

jesus some of those are horrific. my plumber (who happens to be my uncle) plumbed the 2nd bathroom im adding in my house. he gets ready to leave and goes "oh by the way, you're going to have to head off a floor joist, i cut it."

oh... i see... i went and jumped on the area where he said he cut it, a good 5 times. im 300 pounds and it didnt budge so screw right? who cares baaa fahgetaboutit


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

What's in the room below? Can you get away with a small soffit? I used to bolt angle iron to the joists for strength. That is a pretty good chunk out of the joist.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

TimNJ said:


> What's in the room below? Can you get away with a small soffit? I used to bolt angle iron to the joists for strength. That is a pretty good chunk out of the joist.



At the moment...nothing really...typical unfinished basement with W/D setup...

However.....at what I perceive to be the critical point [joist gets dead ended]...there is duct work ~ I had to remove it just to gain access to the plumbing.

I was thinking...some angle iron would do the trick ~ and when I finish the basement, incorporate it into the soffit/dropped ceiling that will hide the duct work as well as the gas, water, and some electric lines.

I have a 2x on edge there [temped] that is " the spot " where everything collides.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Good lord Celtic, I thought you said you would have this wrapped up in like a week and a half.

What were our orginal guesses at this?

Are you having a hard time picking out the tile still?:whistling

I'm sorry man, I just know how it goes. By the way, how's the wife doing with the progress so far?:laughing:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Celtic said:


> At the moment...nothing really...typical unfinished basement with W/D setup...
> 
> However.....at what I perceive to be the critical point [joist gets dead ended]...there is duct work ~ I had to remove it just to gain access to the plumbing.
> 
> ...


I finally realized that it's a header
not a joist.
Where is the stool flange going?
Have you done any more since the pic?


*I have screwed around with this pic
til I'm ready to cry!
I rotated the damn thing so it's 
rightside up and now I can't post it!*


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

*Geeze!*
It wouldn't show up in preview,
now up it pops! :laughing:

Which side of the cut joist is 
the stool on?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Good lord Celtic, I thought you said you would have this wrapped up in like a week and a half.
> 
> What were our orginal guesses at this?
> 
> ...



LMAO :laughing:

I should have saved this "timeline" I saw for a bath remodel....
the "claim" ~ 18 days...
I feel like I haven't touched that bath in 18 days .....
but I do have a *DEADLINE*: 10/18/09

I'm giving the wife a new crapper for our anniversary 

I am gonna be sooooo much in the dog house.:laughing:


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Celtic said:


> What are some solutions to the butchered joists the plumbers always seem to leave in their wake?


Make the retarded plumbers who do this drink drano. I don't mean this for the good ones, just the retarded ones who hack up joists. There's no reason to do it, period!


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

While I don't have a pic (yet), I was looking at a job the other day and when this house was built(in the 80's) the plumber cut not one but two floor joists - cut out a 4" section in each, to run his toilet drain. 


My question is this: How the hell does stuff like this get missed by the building inspectors?? This is certainly not the first one I've seen.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Thanks Neo...I flipped that thing so many times and STILL is was sideways...I just posted it as is.



On the left....you see that shiny metal bar?
It's a clamp.

Just above it you can just make out where the old flange penetrated the old floor [new ply is above]

In that area will be the new flange, slightly offset... the old tile wall were set in like 2" of mud.



Today I broke out the tape measure:
....the width of the room is 61"...the tub 60"....have to build it out 1"'ish [walls are crooked as expected]

....have to drop a soffit over the tub or build the wall out 3.5".....EF flange [that was installed last year or before] is lower than it should be...

IF I build that shower wall out, my fixtures my be too close for my liking....checking cut sheets as we type.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Joe Carola said:


> Make the retarded plumbers who do this drink drano. I don't mean this for the good ones, just the retarded ones who hack up joists. There's no reason to do it, period!





jarvis design said:


> While I don't have a pic (yet), I was looking at a job the other day and when this house was built(in the 80's) the plumber cut not one but two floor joists - cut out a 4" section in each, to run his toilet drain.
> 
> 
> My question is this: How the hell does stuff like this get missed by the building inspectors?? This is certainly not the first one I've seen.



It's amazing, isn't it?

The upstairs bath was a massacre.
I think they notched ALL the joists and laid the pipes in their little "trenches".

I sistered them all up...but one ~ that one I removed completely, then drilled all the other joists and slide my pipes in....so I used a few extra couplings - that really broke the bank


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Celtic said:


> It's amazing, isn't it?
> 
> :


These F##king idiots are brain dead. Maybe they put the glue on the end of a pie and suck the glue all day. Any plumber that hacks a joist before asking the GC or HO to get someone in there to make room for the plumber should jump off a bridge. There will be some plumbers that will argue and say that they had to get the job done and couldn't wait around to have the GC or framer fix it. That's even worse than cutting the joists. They are F##KING RETARDS!!!


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

That header can't really do much
for you as is.
My take is, I'd rather cross that joist
if it were sistered with plywood,
than have what you've got there.
It would mean some plumbing,
but if you could cross it way back
near the basement wall, so much the better.

I know that's just what you wanted to hear.
Maybe someone else has some 
more clever magic?


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## spdtrx (Sep 10, 2009)

Joe Carola said:


> These F##king idiots are brain dead. Maybe they put the glue on the end of a pie and suck the glue all day. Any plumber that hacks a joist before asking the GC or HO to get someone in there to make room for the plumber should jump off a bridge. There will be some plumbers that will argue and say that they had to get the job done and couldn't wait around to have the GC or framer fix it. That's even worse than cutting the joists. They are F##KING RETARDS!!!


 
LOL. Thats how I feel sometimes when I go do a rough plumbing inspection 
I look and want to say WTF is this and the plumber go's :whistling ( what )
Guess what does'nt get passed. Then they get :furious: and  at me.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

spdtrx said:


> Guess what does'nt get passed. Then they get :furious: and  at me.


There you go. They hack the joist knowing it's wrong and then get pissed at you for failing it. They are bigger retards. They make no sense in life. They hack a joist like F##KING APES and then they get mad when they fail inspection. How the F##K do they get mad at their own stupidity and want to blame someone else? They have no argument...at all! 

Did this Plungerhead Ape go in his truck and drink a can of glue after he made you fail him.........


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

neolitic said:


> That header can't really do much
> for you as is.
> My take is, I'd rather cross that joist
> if it were sistered with plywood,
> ...


Of course it's what I wanted to hear...music to my ing ears.

Just the other side of the header, is a TY:










...which ties into the [new] stack:









Plywood sandwich there would be a PITA at this point.

The joists are in much better shape now then they were before.

I'm thinking some steel would be the strongest, easiest option at this point.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

You are just full of cute little 
surprises aren't you? :laughing:
What is at the top of the pic?
A beam?
Another header?


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Just for fun,
what is the total unsupported span
of the joist?
How far from the basement wall
to your new header?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

The other end of the area:


















This shot really shows what's there.

You can see the old hole for the flange as well as where they had a 2x4 brace in place.

This is all that was there.


The new flange hole will be a bit closer to the new waste line.....I could toss in a couple of 2x8s to tie into the other dead end by the duct 90.

A 2x8 WILL fit between the waste line and the existing old 2x8


Any of this change the equation?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

neolitic said:


> just for fun,
> what is the total unsupported span
> of the joist?
> How far from the basement wall
> to your new header?


70"


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

70" to the header?
and how far from the basement wall
to the beam in the first pic?


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

davitk said:


> Yeah, sorry didn't mean to steal your thunder. I need to become a better reader.


I have no thunder. :laughing:
I took Beano!


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Celtic, what you have is a Tee on its back, and not a Tee Wye. A tee wye is a combination tee and 1/8 bend, and its what most, if not all model codes require for transitions from vertical to horizontal in a waste stack (since this is carrying waste from the lavatory, then its a combination waste and vent stack, but for our discussion, its a waste stack).

My suggestion? Double your single 2x8s and properly box off that closet riser area/return air area. Also, you don't have to fun those pipes within the joists, they can be dropped and offset so as to get them beside the return air and not on top of it. Cleaner to run on top, until you have to reach them, but oh well. You're doing remodeling here, so make the best compromise.

Replace that tee with a combination wye and 1/8 bend (a true tee-wye and not a sanitary tee on its back) and get to getting. 

Joe Carola and I would have had that crud whipped out in a half day and charged you two days so we could leave plenty of time to drink your beer and laugh at your nail apron.:w00t:

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. My granny could have done all that plumbing in service weight cast iron and poured lead joints by now and done the carpentry work with logs and a one-woman rip saw. Of course, she was 'shine powered, but that's a topic for a different thread.

Now git to gitting!

Oh, and I forgot... Replace all that hacked up wood. This is a professionals forum. Show us some new wood. Sheesh.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Double-A said:


> Celtic, what you have is a Tee on its back, and not a Tee Wye. *A tee wye is a combination tee and 1/8 bend,* and its what most, if not all model codes require for transitions from vertical to horizontal in a waste stack


Is that the same as a "Fee"?
"Sanitary Fee"?


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Celtic said:


> I'm finding that out right now :blink: ....and being the clueless HO that I am ....not having any luck.
> 
> http://www.strongtie.com/products/category_list.html :shutup:


From the USP catalog,
HUS 212-2 (3-1/8X11-1/8)
HD 212-2 (3-1/8X11)

Maybe the lumberyard dudes
will convert that to Simpson-ese? :laughing:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

neolitic said:


> From the USP catalog,
> HUS 212-2 (3-1/8X11-1/8)
> HD 212-2 (3-1/8X11)
> 
> ...



I found HUS212-2 in the simpson catolog 
but not the HD212-2 ???


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

I was re-reading this post.....




Cdat said:


> Wood was invented ....













*POST OF THE YEAR NOMINEE*

:laughing:​


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Celtic said:


> I was re-reading this post.....


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Celtic said:


> I was re-reading this post.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember that.
Had a chance to buy in on the IPO,
but thought it was just another fad.


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## ets80 (Jan 1, 2013)

3/4 plywood screwed and a repair plate made by simpson


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## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

ets80 said:


> 3/4 plywood screwed and a repair plate made by simpson



Im sure it was fixed....Date was 2009 :laughing:


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

and here we go 


BUT this time i caught myself at post #3:thumbup:


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