# Nail or staple?



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Ok I been doing some research online for an answer to this but I'm getting varied results. I'm about to lay some 3/4 hardwood which is a first for me and I have been told to use a 2" staple or a 2" nail. I already have a 2" 15 1/2 bostitch flooring stapler but I wanna make sure I'm using the best fixing. Some sites says staples are fine and some say nails are fine. 

What would you guys recommend?


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Like a real floor nailer/stapler or that little funky one for staples they make?


----------



## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Ok I been doing some research online for an answer to this but I'm getting varied results. I'm about to lay some 3/4 hardwood which is a first for me and I have been told to use a 2" staple or a 2" nail. I already have a 2" 15 1/2 bostitch flooring stapler but I wanna make sure I'm using the best fixing. Some sites says staples are fine and some say nails are fine.
> 
> What would you guys recommend?


Usually, on the box somewhere it tells you what the manufacturer recommends to install it with.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Like a real floor nailer/stapler or that little funky one for staples they make?


The proper one that you smack with a mallet and plugs into a compressor. I think it's model miiifs.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Usually, on the box somewhere it tells you what the manufacturer recommends to install it with.


Shaw say either staples or nails. But some sites say nails and some staples. I always stick to what manufacturer says but they have given me a choice. :blink: one must be better than the other.


----------



## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Shaw say either staples or nails. But some sites say nails and some staples. I always stick to what manufacturer says but they have given me a choice. :blink: one must be better than the other.


If it is a single layer 3/4" subfloor - I usually use staples.

If it is a 3/4" subfloor with an added layer of plywood I usually use nails.

Or whatever the manufacturer suggests.


----------



## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Staples hold better, nails split tongues less. What I use depends on the species of wood I am installing.


----------



## Edger Boy (Dec 27, 2006)

Here is what NOFMA has to say about fasteners.
This if from a Virginia Tech Subfloor Test Report.

b) Staple connection strength was, in general, slightly higher than nailed connection strength for the test fasteners, However, because of installation damage, staple connections are less reliable and consistent than nailed connections for flooring. Pneumatic stapling resulted in damage to the tongue of flooring which resulted in negligible strength for some stapled connections.​ 
As Precision said, we use both depending on the situation.​


----------



## mattsk8 (Dec 6, 2009)

I used to have the pneumatic Bostich flooring stapler that everyone uses. Then I went to install Brazilian cherry w/ it and it broke off the tongue. I had to get a cleat nailer and this nailed w/ no probs. You also can't use a stapler for Ipe, hickory, etc, anything really hard.

All I can tell you is I know flooring manufacturers that won't warranty the floor if you use staples. Don't know any that won't warranty it if you you cleat nails.

I love my cleat nailer too. It's a Primatech. Pricy but worth every penny. Haven't touched the Bostich since I got it.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Looks like I may have to get the prima tech model then. It's hickory I'm gonna be laying so you got me worried now. What's better. The T or L shape nails?


----------



## mattsk8 (Dec 6, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Looks like I may have to get the prima tech model then. It's hickory I'm gonna be laying so you got me worried now. What's better. The T or L shape nails?


I use the L shape nails but only because that's what was recommended when I bought the gun. I never tried the T shaped ones.

The best thing about the Primatech is that it's smaller than the bostich so I can get one more row down before I have to break out the finish gun when I get up against a wall. It's also waaaaaaaaaay quieter!! These are the two reasons I love it. That and it just feels better when I use it if that makes any sense!?

The Bostich was good to me as far as misfires go, never had much of a problem w/ either the Primatech or the Bostich as far as misfires go.


----------



## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*ahhh,,,,Stapler,,,all the way,,,*

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:shifty:


----------



## mattsk8 (Dec 6, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:shifty:


Hahaha! I *promise* you won't have a problem breaking tongues off w/ this, you may however run into some warranty issues w/ gaps later on though :blink:!


----------



## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*MAtt,,,*

,,,really,,,,,why,,,,, - what,, you don't like my stapler. It was highly recommended by little Jimmy in the Tool department,,I think he is in Gardening Dept on the weekends,, ah,,,anyways,,,Is there something wrong with it,,,,:shifty::shifty::laughing::jester:

Alabaster K. Siflopolus


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Old fashion Porta Nailer, no pneumatic assist. You have to hit it a lot harder and it pushes the flooring together tighter. More work, better result.


----------



## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Leo G said:


> Old fashion Porta Nailer, no pneumatic assist. You have to hit it a lot harder and it pushes the flooring together tighter. More work, better result.


No offense at all Leo, but I'd be pretty damned shocked if you could get a floor tighter with a manual nailer than I can with my Bostich. I've taken up a LOT of both.....40 year old manual driven floors ALWAYS come up easier. Just sayin :thumbsup:


----------



## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*here we go,,,*

:boxing::boxing::boxing:


----------



## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Nah no fightin, just an observatios and results that I have seen during at least 10,000 sf of flooring taken up over the years. Leo's observations and results might be different.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I would tend to think over the years any type of flooring fastener will loosen up do to movement from foot traffic, settling, expansion and contraction.


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

No fight here. Just looking at the physics. Using a small hammer to bump the piston to activate a small pneumatic hammer to set a nail/staple vs a very large hammer to generate a large force to squeeze the boards together at the same time while driving the nail. I have only taken one floor out in my career and it wasn't really that hard. I would think a staple would have more holding power because of the criss-crossing of the staples in the wood subfloor. I don't know of a manual staple unit even though one may exist. I believe they are all pneumatically operated.


----------



## mattsk8 (Dec 6, 2009)

I've never used the non-pneumatic one but I would agree the physics say it would drive a bowed floor board tight better than the pneumatic one would. I just refuse to put fourth that much effort :whistling. Quantity before quality :blink:.

I have bashed both of my pneumatics pretty good trying to drive finiky boards together and haven't had any issues. So hard I couldn't hit the manual one harder.

I do think the staples stay in the subfloor better, but that only makes them harder to remove after you rip the floor out then have to go back and pull the staples out!! The flooring w/ staples actually seems to come up the same if not easier w/ the stapler because the staples definately crack the tongues; hopefully that made sense to someone out there :wacko:


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Just found out today also that it's dam particle board subfloor. Instructions for flooring say nothing about recommended installation for particle subfloors. I'm gonna try the staples then see how well they hold and go from there. I have no comparisons for how they pull out compaired to nails though. I guess if I splitt the tounges then nail version it is.


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Nails won't hold in PB, staples may have a chance.


----------



## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

I have an air assisted porta nailer, costly little bugger that doesn't get used often but when I need it, it's there. It drives them in just fine and you still use a heavy hammer to hit , you just don't have to hit it as hard. The air doesn't do all the work but definitely helps. I prefer nails, only stapling I have done has been with the thinner engineered flooring but I don't care for that product.


----------



## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*Pb,,,,*

,,,,,,BB, I don't know,,, you may want to talk to them about their subfloor,,,

B,


----------



## mattsk8 (Dec 6, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Just found out today also that it's dam particle board subfloor. Instructions for flooring say nothing about recommended installation for particle subfloors. I'm gonna try the staples then see how well they hold and go from there. I have no comparisons for how they pull out compaired to nails though. I guess if I splitt the tounges then nail version it is.


Cleats hold fine in particle board subfloors too, that's what I have in my house (built in '82) and all my hardwood's heald down w/ cleats. Just make sure you put enough nails in. 

The staples will work. They'll just break the tongues off a lot in your hickory. For sure it will, I've installed hickory w/ a stapler. For the most part (prolly about 80%) you'll be fine but w/ hickory the wood is very unpredictable, inconsistent as far as the density goes. One board will be great while the next will be 'brittle', the brittle ones are the ones the tongues break off on. Just make sure if it happens you remove the board w/ the broke tongue or you will have a gap issue at this joint.


----------



## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Agree, hickory gets nails. Particle board is a big NO, but we've had that discussion a hundred times lol.


----------



## mattsk8 (Dec 6, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Just found out today also that it's dam particle board subfloor. Instructions for flooring say nothing about recommended installation for particle subfloors. I'm gonna try the staples then see how well they hold and go from there. I have no comparisons for how they pull out compaired to nails though. I guess if I splitt the tounges then nail version it is.


The reason for no hardwood over particle board is if the pb gets wet, it disintegrates therefore leaving nothing holding your nails (2" nails, 3/4" hardwood, usually 5/8" pb subfloor- you'll have 5/8" of the nail in the plywood sheeting on the floor below the particle board).

That being said, I chanced it in my house and it's been successful (so far!). I also have 4" wide plank flooring, wider planks should magnify these kinds of problems, should they present themselves.

As everyone says, hardwood over particle board is a no-no according to the manufacturers and if I was doing the job for a paying customer, I would make them sign a document stating that they are aware of the problems that can occur putting hardwood over particle board. Entrys where people walk in w/ wet or snowy boots, kitchens where you could potentially have a water damage, etc.

We put rugs w/ plastic under them in the entry and the whole entry (door and all) is new (thanks to a bad door install by the previous ho and termites) so I'm not too worried about it.

All that being said, if you have a water damage that's bad enough to seep through the hardwood and set into the particle board long enough for it to break down, you'd probably be replacing it if it was plywood or OSB as well anyhow. I'd just install it if it were me but I'd use a cleat nailer :thumbsup:!


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I done some tests today. 90psi with the staple gun and it held really well in the PB and I had to pry them out of the flooring and it wernt easy. Problem was I got splits on a few of the boards I tried. Contacted shaw and they said the flooring is ok to use with staple or nails and shouldn't be splitting. They say I'm using too much PSI! I'm gonna do a few more tests on Monday. 

I'm getting tiny splits about 1/4" either side of the staple. But it's really hard to get the flooring back up after it's nailed down. I will post some pics when I finish cleaning my truck. 

Thanks again guys for the advice so far. Really helping me out :thumbsup:


----------



## Shouldz14 (Nov 21, 2014)

all difference of opinion I guess. however you can make an argument that when using staples to install roof sheathing or wall sheathing they aren't as good as using your framing nailer with coated nails. so what makes staples in a floor hold/are better than staples in sheathing?


----------



## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

A rave from the grave, i set all my floors with ramset d60.




He he !!


----------



## Madhungarian (Jan 25, 2017)

*Cleats vs Staples*

Well you guys gotta add my 2 cents here this is my 35th year in hardwood floors been self employed since I was 24 and staples hold a heck of lot better over OSB period. Not all OSB decking is the same and it's come a long way. Switched to pneumatic floor staplers in 1998 and never looked back as far as the splitting issue staples definitely do it more often than cleats but in many cases it's about your SCFM, pneumatic floor staplers and cleat nailers need a constant 4.0 SCFM and for best results between 70 and 110 SCFM. Truth is this is hard to do beacause most of us nail faster than most compressors can keep up.


----------



## ptspurlock (Jan 30, 2017)

*Nail or Staple*

There is no straight up nail or staple answer. It depends on what brand of Solid hardwood you are installing and what hardwood fastener you are using.

As a general guide for 3/4 in. solid hardwood ...

Stanley Bostitch (multiple models) with M 4 foot 1½" 2" Fastener

Powernail (multiple models of the 445) with NailerShoe 1½" 2" Fastener 15.5 gauge.

Armstrong, Bruce and Robbins 3/4 in. solid hardwoods ...

Stanley Bostitch (multiple models) with M 4 foot 1½"- 2" Fastener

Powernail (multiple models of the 445) with NailerShoe 1½"-2" Fastener 15.5 gauge

Chesapeake 3/4 in. solid Hardwoods...

Manual or Pneumatic Nailer or Stapler with 1½" -2" Staples or Cleats with 15.5 gauge
*Do not staple down products that exceed 5′′ in width or Pecan, Maple products or Hickory products.*

IndusParquet 3/4 in. solid hardwood...

445 Pneumatic Powernail 1-1/2" - 2" Cleat Fastener 15.5 gauge

DuChateau 3/4 in. solid hardwood...

Powernail Model 50PBostitch EHF 1838K & Senco SLS20HF 1-1/2" to 2" 18–19 gauge staple or 18 gauge barbed cleat

Mirage 3/4 in. solid hardwood...

Bostitch MIIIFS pneumatic stapler with 1-1/2”up to 2”staples

Primatech P210 with 1-1/2 Nails

Powernail 445 with 1-3/4 Nails

Senco SHF50 pneumatic with 1-1/2” Nails

Triangulo 3/4 in. solid hardwood...


Stanley Bostitch(multiple models) with M-4 foot 15 ½ Gauge Staples

Pneumatic Powernail 445 1-1/2" - 2" 16 Gauge Cleats

Pneumatic Powernail 50P 1-1/2" 18 Gauge Cleats
*
Particleboard has little to no holding power for fasteners*. 

Other wood floors may be installed if the particleboard is ripped out, but if the original sub floor is not thick enough, at least a 1/2 inch layer of plywood or 3/4 inch OSB must be added once the particleboard is removed. The other option is to install a layer of plywood or OSB over the top of the particleboard although that may create unacceptable height differences with the adjoining rooms; always check.

I tried to identify the companies that manufacture solid hardwoods, at least the ones we sell. If you need additional info, our website link is in the profile. Please feel free to visit Acufloorz website and submit a form.

Paul Spurlock


----------

