# These kind of people are why I am struggling



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

asgoodasdead said:


> also a matter of keeping your guys busy. right now we have a year's worth of well-paying work lined up, but as framers we gotta wait on permits, excavating, foundations, steel, etc. nothing's ever ready as soon as it should be and sometimes you hit holes where you don't want your guys sitting home between jobs so you take something for less than you'd like to keep everyone busy and keep paying your bills. I know everyone likes to act like a bigshot on her and pretend they're flush with top-dollar jobs but that's not always the case for everyone. and it's not black and white.


I would think most people who dont agree with this either uses subs for everything, doesn't understand the true cost of training replacements and looking for/vetting replacements, or lives in an area with an abundance of skilled workers who are unemployed. 

It sucks to do it, but it just a cost of doing business to me. Even a solid laborer/apprentice who has some time on the crew is a valuable part of the team and their chemistry, which equates to quality production.


----------



## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Jaws said:


> I would think most people who dont agree with this either uses subs for everything, doesn't understand the true cost of training replacements and looking for/vetting replacements, or lives in an area with an abundance of skilled workers who are unemployed.
> 
> It sucks to do it, but it just a cost of doing business to me. Even a solid laborer/apprentice who has some time on the crew is a valuable part of the team and their chemistry, which equates to quality production.


When it all tanked I had three guys painting my trailer and another two organizing and doing odds/ends on jobs just so I could make sure they got their 40. Gives me the shivers thinking back about that.

No payroll for me ever again. I was quite possibly the crappiest businessman ever, at least in management and paperwork.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Deckhead said:


> When it all tanked I had three guys painting my trailer and another two organizing and doing odds/ends on jobs just so I could make sure they got their 40. Gives me the shivers thinking back about that.
> 
> No payroll for me ever again. I was quite possibly the crappiest businessman ever, at least in management and paperwork.



Are you working alone or use subs?


----------



## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Are you working alone or use subs?


In my best manliest princess vespa voice

Alllll byyyy myyy seeeellllllfffff

Sorry, space balls is one of my all time favorites.:clap:


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Deckhead said:


> When it all tanked I had three guys painting my trailer and another two organizing and doing odds/ends on jobs just so I could make sure they got their 40. Gives me the shivers thinking back about that.
> 
> No payroll for me ever again. *I was quite possibly the crappiest businessman ever, at least in management and paperwork*.


No you weren't.... you learned a weakness/risk, and you learned and took appropriate action.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

A very successful framer friend of mine maintained his crew for months when the economy tanked. When all said and done they all were permanently laid off. He works alone now doing small stuff and is.... Wait for it... Happy! 


Oh- and he said when he let them go after months of pay for nothing they only wanted a few more weeks for free.


----------



## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

Roofcheck said:


> Oh- and he said when he let them go after months of pay for nothing they only wanted a few more weeks for free.


he paid them to sit home for a few months? wut.


----------



## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

BFD said:


> "Hi my name is nathan ... i come for me! (Do u get it) "


At least he lets everyone know he is a "Jerk Off" right in the post.


----------



## BFD (Jan 31, 2014)

:laughing: :thumbsup:


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

asgoodasdead said:


> he paid them to sit home for a few months? wut.


Almost. Paid 40's when they worked or not and whole weeks went by and they didn't work. His guys were all with him since his start 10 or 11 years ago.


----------



## BFD (Jan 31, 2014)

Roofcheck said:


> Almost. Paid 40's when they worked or not and whole weeks went by and they didn't work. His guys were all with him since his start 10 or 11 years ago.


Thats insane. I am all for loyalty, but if there is no light at the end of the tunnel, you're just giving them the money that you will need to live off of. Live and learn I guess. If there was some light but it was far off, sure, have them do BS work, rake your yard, cut your lawn, etc if they want to get paid, but no matter what I am not paying someone to stay home.


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

He's a good man is all I can say.


----------



## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

yeah our guys just collected unemployment on and off between work after the collapse. that's why you pay into it.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Roofcheck said:


> A very successful framer friend of mine maintained his crew for months when the economy tanked. When all said and done they all were permanently laid off. He works alone now doing small stuff and is.... Wait for it... Happy!
> 
> Oh- and he said when he let them go after months of pay for nothing they only wanted a few more weeks for free.


This game aint for pvssys, certainly not at the level I want to play at. Ive known that since long before I was signing the front of the check. 

I took the same gamble, and it paid off. Just not at first. Its an investment. My better guys are still with us 4 years later, never been shorted or gone away with out a check on Friday, although mine was late more than once. We made busy work when necessary, but it has paid off. 

Will the better guys go their own way? Absolutely. But it has afforded us the time to train replacements


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I understand you boys up north are in a different position. Tradesman up there should know winter will come with layoffs, I would imagine.


----------



## BFD (Jan 31, 2014)

Most guys I know work year round. Even when I was roofing for years, we shoveled it off and went to work. When I was framing, we shoveled it off and went to work. You just get used to it. Unless it drops below 20*, its just a day of the week.


----------



## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

BFD said:


> Most guys I know work year round. Even when I was roofing for years, we shoveled it off and went to work. When I was framing, we shoveled it off and went to work. You just get used to it. Unless it drops below 20*, its just a day of the week.


Yes...The show goes on ! I try to make It work the best I can. The last 3 homes I worked on had the heat pump kicking at 72 degrees... but the one I started today has no power /no heat! Do I walk? Do I work?

I Work! I have little tricks that move me through the cold weather months... It's a total PITA but what do you do? I feel for the masons /siding /roofers / framers/ septic / well diggers etc... The winter cold takes a hard toll on you guys ,,and I feel for ya! But next time you walk by a bucket of drywall compound read the fine print...We ain't got it so good in the winter months either !!!:no:


----------



## BFD (Jan 31, 2014)

You know its been a long winter when today I was thinking how beautiful it was out and I was working outside in a long sleeve shirt all comfortable. It was 35* and sunny  I think its time for the snow to melt so we can move on or I am going to have to turn the AC on when it gets into the 60s :laughing:


----------



## music9704 (Nov 4, 2009)

Roofcheck said:


> Almost. Paid 40's when they worked or not and whole weeks went by and they didn't work. His guys were all with him since his start 10 or 11 years ago.


A lawyer once told me, "you have to be willing to hire, fire, and layoff". "It's a business to make money". My uncle told me you have to be able to lie to your own mother, (in other words to both owners, and your crew)to be a contractor. Both of those things stuck with me. After many years, I decided that's not the kind of person I really want to be. I like the work, sometimes i like the homeowners, miss having a big crew, but I am happier working alone. I have a couple of guys I use when I need, I sub out what I can't handle.


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Jaws said:


> I understand you boys up north are in a different position. Tradesman up there should know winter will come with layoffs, I would imagine.


well, with us we definitely don't work through the winter.

It's about an 8 month season for us-so if it ain't made by about Thanksgiving(typically)-it ain't gonna get made.
We will begin starting back up 3-18-14-but it's usually hit or miss untill about the first week of april.

they are payrolled employees so they get U.I benefits, and we talked a while ago in another thread about our end of season bonus. I carry their medical benefits through the winter. One guy is a woodworker who works all winter on personal projects- another guy is a musician who plays in 3 different bands.......and so forth. all in all they enjoy the winter- though I got to admidt we are all getting a bit bored and are ready to climb on something------ but not before our annual St. Patricks Day all day drinking binge...........
Stephen

BTW- I ain't waddling around on any snow covered roofs dressed up like the Michelin Tire man in Carhartt coveralls. If I am gonna make any money we gotta be able to MOVE, and besides those copper valleys are slippery when covered by ice, LOL


----------



## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

BFD
Your trying to get the wrong customers.

I work in Worcester and surrounding towns all the time.
As a mater of fact I work out of my own town more than in it.

Things to Remember
1) know what it cost to be in business
2) charge what you need to make
3) target the customers who can afford you (pre-qualify)
4) work in the areas that can afford your rates

NOT SURE WHO WILL HATE THIS ONE.

6) IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE IS UNLICENSED AND /OR INSURED.
OR NOT RRP OR NOT USING FALL PROTECTION.
REPORT THEM. (we have to follow the rules, so should the illegals)

BFD im me for more info, if you need it


----------



## BFD (Jan 31, 2014)

Thanks JayDee, my issue lately has more been a lack of leads. Its tough trying to justify advertising to the wife when there isn't any money coming in. Most of my work is in Marlborough, Ashland, etc. I have only done maybe a dozen estimates around here (oxford) and every time I have been outbid in disgusting fashion, so I don't advertise around here anymore. I can't and won't even try to compete with the guys charging no markup and $25/hr for labor (and there seem to be a TON of them around here)


----------

