# Employees and time off



## bdog1234 (Feb 25, 2008)

I am struggling with time off policies with my employees. All of my guys are guaranteed and paid for 40 hours a week regardless if they actually work that much or not. If they work more than 40 they are of course paid over time and the extra hours.

There are lots of times the guys don't work and I don't come up with busy work just to see them. There were three months this year they did not work a single day but they were paid 40 hours a week the entire time. This was somewhat unusual but on average they get 10-15 days off, paid, every month. No set schedule though. 

This year they worked the following:

Jan 0 days
Feb 3 days
Mar 20 days
April 6 days
May 8 days
June 3 days
July 0 days
August 0 days
September 16 days
October 8 days
November 20 days

Now I have no issues with family emergencies, funerals, etc but the guys asking off for other things doesn't sit well with me. 

Right now we are on a project that will finish on the 19th. I have told the guys once it is done we won't be working until mid January at the soonest. So they are essentially getting 27 paid days off for the holidays. 
One of my guys told me today his family is planning on leaving for a ski trip on the 17th so he wants the 17th-19th off. I only have three employees so him being gone puts us in a bind. 

Am I a jerk for telling my crew there is absolutely no vacation time that can can take on their own schedule however I do guarantee that they will have at least 150 days off, paid, per year but I just can't say for sure when they will be?


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

bdog1234 said:


> on average they get 10-15 days off, paid, every month.





bdog1234 said:


> I do guarantee that they will have at least 150 days off, paid, per year


Am I reading this right: On a typical year, which for simplicity's sake has 250 productive work days, your crew gets 150 days of paid time off? I don't understand.

If they have absolutely nothing to do and you just can't bring yourself to lay them off, hire them out to people that need labor. Even if you lose a couple dollars an hour... That's better than $25 or $30 or $35 an hour.


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## bdog1234 (Feb 25, 2008)

You read it right. 100% of their work time is traveling and on the road, often out of state. What we do is very specialized and I need my crew. The only way I have found to keep them is to guarantee them a steady check regardless if we are working or not. For example and average month we are out of town working 10-15 days. The rest of the time they are off.


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## G&Co. (Jul 29, 2020)

bdog1234 said:


> on average they get 10-15 days off, paid, every month


Give me a call. I want to come work for you


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

bdog1234 said:


> You read it right. 100% of their work time is traveling and on the road, often out of state. What we do is very specialized and I need my crew. The only way I have found to keep them is to guarantee them a steady check regardless if we are working or not. For example and average month we are out of town working 10-15 days. The rest of the time they are off.


Oh that makes sense. Now I can appreciate your original question.

From your employee's perspective, they want to take their paid vacation and use it for something useful to them - family trips and stuff. That you were paying them to sit around in, say, September doesn't matter if they want to go on a trip in January or whatever.

So I would try to find a way to accommodate.

Tough situation.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

After all, it's just like you said:


bdog1234 said:


> I need my crew


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## G&Co. (Jul 29, 2020)

Yes, and they need him as well. If the work is specialized, there is relatively little demand and little supply for their skills. 
In general, it is understood that vacation needs to be taken at a time convenient for both employer and employee. In any business, not specific to construction.
If they can't negotiate a mutually beneficial time, then perhaps that employee doesn't belong in that company. 
Paid idle time due to lack of work has no bearing on it.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

If my guys got that much paid time off which I find really unreasonable, & 1 came up w/that chit, he’d be gone & I’d hijack a replacement


Mike


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

No PTO policy if you are already giving them that much time off paid.

Tell him to plan the trip around scheduled down time.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

Thats just disrespectful. I'd tell him to kick rocks on the 20th and use that time to find and train a replacement.


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## bdog1234 (Feb 25, 2008)

G&Co. said:


> Paid idle time due to lack of work has no bearing on it.


You don't think so? I mean personally I wouldn't work somewhere that didn't let me take some sort of vacation time if I had to work basically every week. If however I consistently got 150 paid days off a year just due to work scheduling or whatever I wouldn't care so much.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

In the infantry when not on deployment there's loads of down time. Organized units will fill some of that time with large training exercises. Four weeks here, three weeks there. But there are still weeks sometimes with nothing on. However, you don't get to **** off on vacation just cause there's nothing to do. Your presence, even if you're idle, is required. Good NCOs will find ways to train during that downtime. So here's another thought:

Fire the unreasonable ones, and pay the remaining one(s) to train replacements in the scheduled downtime.

Or rent them out to me for a few months and when they come back from a demo deployment they'll be all "yes sir, no sir, when shall I take my vacation, sir?"


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## mrcat (Jun 27, 2015)

Is the downtime scheduled a reasonable time in advance? 
If not, I could see that being a pain for someone with a family to deal with....

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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Tell him if you let him off he get's no paid time off next year. How long has his trip been planned? Rather short notice.


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## bdog1234 (Feb 25, 2008)

No it isn't scheduled in advance. Basically weather and our client's schedules are what determine when we work. I try to tell them as much in advance as I can like right now I am telling them once we finish this job on the 19th/20th that they for sure are off until at least January 17th.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

bdog1234 said:


> No it isn't scheduled in advance. Basically weather and our client's schedules are what determine when we work. I try to tell them as much in advance as I can like right now I am telling them once we finish this job on the 19th/20th that they for sure are off until at least January 17th.


Can I come on the crew for a four week trial? I'll let you know mid January if I'm staying.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

reggi said:


> Or rent them out to me for a few months and when they come back from a demo deployment they'll be all "yes sir, no sir, when shall I take my vacation, sir?"


Or you could put them on my crew & let my lead, we call him Billy Jack, take em through boot camp all over again. Good ol boy from the deep Apallacian mountains where they never own a pair of shoes or meet another human outside of immediate family. Attitude will change


Mike


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## bdog1234 (Feb 25, 2008)

The thing is it isn't a surprise to them. I am very clear that we have no set schedule but in our 15 years of business we have never worked over 150 days a year and they will be paid for 40 hours a week minimum working or not. They are told they don't have any specific vacation but they will have a lot of paid time off. I have a family and deal with myself. It is hard to plan but it is what it is.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

You're in an incredibly lucrative business, with a pay structure that's unbelievably generous. You need to point out to your employees that they already have the deal of a lifetime, and that when you need them, you need them. 
It also seems to me that replacing any that couldn't live with that stipulation should take about an hour.


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## bdog1234 (Feb 25, 2008)

Pounder said:


> You're in an incredibly lucrative business, with a pay structure that's unbelievably generous. You need to point out to your employees that they already have the deal of a lifetime, and that when you need them, you need them.
> It also seems to me that replacing any that couldn't live with that stipulation should take about an hour.


You would be surprised how many people can't hack the travel. Most the time our jobs are a couple weeks long but there have been times where we worked 40 days straight in another state. The 40 days was rough but we had two months off after it.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)




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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

bdog1234 said:


> You would be surprised how many people can't hack the travel


If they can’t handle the travel w/the paid time off you say they get, you need to find one’s that will. I’ve traveled the Pacific & Gulf coast chasing Comm. for years, building resi in between. I’ve got contacts from Oregon to the Keys I use both subs & hourly. With today’s technology it’s a cinch. As you know in today’s market, we can offer top pay. Otoh I don’t know the scope of your business or what your aim is. Contacts are key


Mike


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

bdog1234 said:


> You would be surprised how many people can't hack the travel. Most the time our jobs are a couple weeks long but there have been times where we worked 40 days straight in another state. The 40 days was rough but we had two months off after it.


I once spend 9 months on an oil rig without a day off. Lots of oilfield guys work 30 days on and 30 days off. Where do I apply?


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

I agree with Mike. It's a big world full of people with all sorts of preferred lifestyles. There's likely a better fit candidate out there and you have loads of time to train them between jobs.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Grandma needs to die on days off if they are only working 150 days. 

J/k, kinda. Better be real serious if they need to burn off on work time with that schedule- not a vacation or whatever


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

For a small commission, I will post an ad in my local paper, but you'll have to PM me what you do for a living, so I can paint a broad picture to the candidates.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

OP, did you post something similar to this a year or so ago?????


Mike


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## bdog1234 (Feb 25, 2008)

Kingcarpenter1 said:


> OP, did you post something similar to this a year or so ago?????
> 
> 
> Mike


I don't think so? I frequently have gripes about various aspects of the business that I like to vent here but I think this is a new one. We have only been doing the guaranteed hours about a year or so maybe 18 months.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

bdog1234 said:


> I frequently have gripes about various aspects of the business that I like to vent here


Boy don’t we all. Was you maybe talking about the much paid time off or something along those lines. Hell, I could have been dreaming or space burnt


Mike


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

bdog1234 said:


> Am I a jerk for telling my crew there is absolutely no vacation time that can can take on their own schedule however I do guarantee that they will have at least 150 days off, paid, per year but I just can't say for sure when they will be?


You sacrifice paying them for not working to keep them. That is a business decision. You don't have control over when you work and your employee may not have control over when his family plans a ski trip. I wouldn't step into the cost of the turnover world over 3 additional days off. That tough-guy $#!t just doesn't cut it in my mind.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> You sacrifice paying them for not working to keep them. That is a business decision. You don't have control over when you work and your employee may not have control over when his family plans a ski trip. I wouldn't step into the cost of the turnover world over 3 additional days off. That tough-guy $#!t just doesn't cut it in my mind.



Been cutting it for me for 14 years hoss. How many hands you running? 2 ?

That work schedule is ridiculously good, I'd be replacing that guy unless he was norm Abrams if they tool off one of their 150 work days for a ski trip


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

I wouldn't pay for any of their time off if it fell during a paying job. ****. 

Freaking gravy snowflakes. Seriously. 

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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

You have X # of working days for your line of business. Those are crucial performance days for your company. MAKE that absolutely understood by your people, and then move forward with that agreement. 

For example, we need to work 150-200 days a year. 

You take time off and it happens to fall during a project...I am not paying for it off. 

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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

META said:


> I wouldn't pay for any of their time off if it fell during a paying job. ****.
> 
> Freaking gravy snowflakes. Seriously.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I wouldn't keep a hand period who scheduled a vacation for the 40% of the year you work. Thats an unheard of schedule for a full time check. Paid or unpaid I'd be looking for a new hand unless they were a beast, that is a cancer imo unless it's something vital 

If you have a service company etc... maybe it's different but if you have hard start dates and deadlines in the real world and paying top dollar and to be off half the year I'm gonna say 100% attendance required


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

META said:


> You have X # of working days for your line of business. Those are crucial performance days for your company. MAKE that absolutely understood by your people, and then move forward with that agreement.
> 
> For example, we need to work 150-200 days a year.
> 
> ...


If he can pay them during down time it's smart imo. My old havac Contractor did it 15 years, months on end they'd work a few hours a week but during the summer and spring 6 days a week they did a change out - no excuses. Paid year round, same hands for years


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

Jaws said:


> If he can pay them during down time it's smart imo. My old havac Contractor did it 15 years, months on end they'd work a few hours a week but during the summer and spring 6 days a week they did a change out - no excuses. Paid year round, same hands for years


Or like was mentioned, change the expectations slowly with new hires. We work 40 hours a week. Plan on it, and you get X days vacation.

Then figure out how to supplement the down time with some form of comparable work not (beneath) the guys. 

I don't know...how special is this work? 

Are we talking about 1 in 500,000 people special? 

I guess that context might help too. 

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## JoeStanton (Sep 24, 2008)

You gotta clue us in to what you do. Sounds like an awesome job if you can stomach the travel. That said it has to be tough to schedule vaca with the fam when you don't know the schedule.

I would have a no tolerance policy if I were paying basically 40% of the year to stay home. There's no way I'm paying someone a month off to be short handed when we are working. I would offer to pay for his flight to where they are going after the job is done. Have a meeting when everyone is home and set expectations. 

I would send em' to Srg Reggi and let those fellas fall in line!


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

JoeStanton said:


> I would offer to pay for his flight to where they are going after the job is done


F—that. He’s getting more than he’s worth if he’s going to skip when it’s crunch time. I’d fly em w/a boot in the arse


Mike


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

JoeStanton said:


> I would send em' to Srg Reggi and let those fellas fall in line!


lol, never made Sgt. but a salty Cpl. can do some damage.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

bdog1234 said:


> You would be surprised how many people can't hack the travel. Most the time our jobs are a couple weeks long but there have been times where we worked 40 days straight in another state. The 40 days was rough but we had two months off after it.


Change the way you pay. Rather than a guaranteed 40 every week give them a huge hourly rate. Your yearly labor cost stays the same, but days off when your busy costs the employee, not you. It also allows you to hire a temp replacement. 

It will also look great in a help wanted ad, "part time employment, starting at $80 an hour". You'll get 500 responses the day it lands.


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