# Arc fault breakers



## BaldBill (Apr 4, 2007)

I'm getting conflicting information from two electricians. I'm hoping that you guys can help me.

The home in question is a 1950's single family home in PA. The seller of the house's electrician claims that if he preforms the service change (60 amp, fuses to 100 amp, breakers) he does not have to use AFI breakers. The buyers electrician says that all the breakers now have to be AFI. I know that in new construction they have been required in bedrooms and they are now adding other rooms that must use them but what about in an existing home?

Thanks in advance!
Bald Bill


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Cover your @$$ and let the AHJ make the call for you.

I get different rules thrown at me depending on the jurisdiction and well as even the individual inspectors within jurisdictions.

Get it in writing.

New construction you definately need AFCI's, but that doesn't necesarily apply in your case.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Contact your local inspector.:thumbsup:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> ... and let the AHJ make the call for you.


OK, having one of those Calif blond moments.
What is AHJ?


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

That would be authority having juristiction.


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## Static Design (Nov 30, 2008)

Depends on what code book you're still under and what your AHJ says he wants..... Around here it depends on the mood of the inspectors.:laughing:


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## solarguy (Feb 14, 2010)

California is now using the 2008 code.
http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=70


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## solarguy (Feb 14, 2010)

According to the 16th edition of "Electrical Wiring Residential" based on the 2008 NEC, the union training manual, it says:


> The mandatory requirements in 210.12 for AFCI is for new work only. It is not retroactive.


It goes on to say it's not a bad idea to replace the existing circuit breakers with AFCI circuit breakers. Original wiring was rated at 140* and the insulation becomes brittle with heat. 
They cost around $40 compared to $10.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

solarguy said:


> According to the 16th edition of "Electrical Wiring Residential" based on the 2008 NEC, the union training manual, it says:
> 
> It goes on to say it's not a bad idea to replace the existing circuit breakers with AFCI circuit breakers. Original wiring was rated at 140* and the insulation becomes brittle with heat.
> They cost around $40 compared to $10.


Bear in mind that is only the author's opinion and nothing more.


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## solarguy (Feb 14, 2010)

The opinions are fairly well accepted, though they are only opinions as you say. I see nothing in 210.12 concerning retrofitting. I believe the ICC addresses retrofitting when a certain percentage of work is done to the structure. The NEC does say all 120v , single phase 15 and 20 amp circuits...shall be protected by a listed AFCI. The only exceptions are if RMC, IMC, EMT, or steel armored cable, type AC, meeting the requirements of 250.118... a AFCI can be used on the first outlet. The other exception is for fire alarms. A service change would have to meet present code.
As previously stated, check with the AHJ.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

There is no clear answer because the code is not clear. 

New work does require AFCI breakers. Swapping out parts (switches, receptacles, lights) in an existing system is not considered new work, but adding to an existing circuit (an additional light or receptacle) does constitute new work. 

This is where it gets fuzzy. Is a replacement panel a replacement change-out or is it an extension. The answer to that question determines whether or not an AFCI is required AND different officials answer the question differently. 

The key words are repair and replace vs modification. A modification should require an upgrade, a repair and replace should not. Your building official will determine whether "HE" calls this repair/replace or modify.


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## AFOREMA1 (Jun 25, 2009)

It all depends on the AHJ I have have some say yes and others no so check and make sure and save yourself the trip back after the inspection.:thumbsup:


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## solarguy (Feb 14, 2010)

His lawyer says no. My lawyer says yes.


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## GE Electric (Jan 8, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> Contact your local inspector.:thumbsup:


 
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

solarguy said:


> His lawyer says no. My lawyer says yes.


Who _cares_ what lawyers say? It 's the *AHJ*s call, and no one else's opinion matters.


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## solarguy (Feb 14, 2010)

My local inspector passed a retaining wall that he knew was wrong. It contained #5 steel for horizontals when #7 was the called out by the engineer. So far the wall is still standing and it probably will for some time to come. We are in earthquake territory. If it does fail, especially if there is injury, regardless of passing inspection, there will be lawsuits. The inspector is not the final word. It needs to be to code as written and accepted by the AHJ. Their lack of enforcement, or even their lack of understanding, doesn't make a difference.
In any case it is cause for concern by the buyer and a reason to back out of the deal or try to correct it through small claims court. Things that should be taken into consideration when trying to save a few hundred dollars on breakers.


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## sparks134 (Oct 5, 2009)

That inspector signed it and said it was ok, its all on him now, he should have FAILED it. That's why they get paid the big $$$.:whistling


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## solarguy (Feb 14, 2010)

Inspectors take no responsibility. They are not there to guarantee your work. It is your job to meet code.


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## Static Design (Nov 30, 2008)

Inspectors make big money??? Hell the electrical inspector I know around here doesn't, he said he is thinking about quitting and going back to an electrical contractor: now benefits on the other hand................


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## solarguy (Feb 14, 2010)

Private special inspectors make good money and being under contract would hold some liability. City inspectors...if they knew what they were doing, they would be contractors.


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