# My first quote and I'm scared...



## carpenj4 (May 30, 2013)

I'm getting ready to submit an estimate to a friend. This is my first estimate and I do not have any other jobs in the future. So I'm a bit scared. Why am I scared? I'm afraid my bid will be too expensive because I have no clue how long the project will take. But I'm taking my best guess. I'm new to this, and have never dealt with pricing. My hourly rate equals out to about $30 an hour (and rightly so, I don't have many tools or a fancy truck.) And I am guessing the project will take me 10 days. Anyway, the job is a bathroom remodel. They want to replace the shower base, the tile, and walls (about 64 square feet), a smaller window, a toilet, and a small vanity / sink. I can do all of the tasks. But I have no clue how long each task will take me. Can anyone help me figure this out? Thanks.


----------



## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

There is no way we can tell you how to do it, how long it will take.

First floor,second floor?

Access? Dump fees? 

Do you drive a Yugo or F-450 CC Long bed?

The list goes on......................

What is your background? 

School of hard knocks is about to begin. Good Luck.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

We all start from this position of not knowing how long its gonna take. You will slowly build a list of previous jobs so you have a better idea next time. No body knows how fast you can lay tile, drywall, frame, plumb etc etc 

As an example I'm slow at drywall and muding but its because I want it perfect. But you may be much slower or much quicker. 

I been doing this 15 years and I still mess up. I'm currently over running 2 days on a 5 day job. It's part of this industry. You win some you lose some.


----------



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

So 1200 a week being self employed is a good way to ensure you wont have money for tools or a truck.

Business costs a small guy as much as $15 and hour alone. You should be no less than 50 plus a mark-up.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

carpenj4 said:


> I'm getting ready to submit an estimate to a friend. This is my first estimate and I do not have any other jobs in the future. So I'm a bit scared. Why am I scared? I'm afraid my bid will be too expensive because I have no clue how long the project will take. But I'm taking my best guess. I'm new to this, and have never dealt with pricing. My hourly rate equals out to about $30 an hour (and rightly so, I don't have many tools or a fancy truck.) And I am guessing the project will take me 10 days. Anyway, the job is a bathroom remodel. They want to replace the shower base, the tile, and walls (about 64 square feet), a smaller window, a toilet, and a small vanity / sink. I can do all of the tasks. But I have no clue how long each task will take me. Can anyone help me figure this out? Thanks.


First of all you will won't make a comfortable living bidding 30 bucks an hour...second of all you will go broke bidding 30 bucks an hour on a fixed price contract!

Work out every aspect of the job on a day-to-day realistic basis, add a day for screwing around getting materials, fixing unforeseen snags, then add another day for cleaning up, mounting towel bars, shelfs and such. The little sh!t can be a real time vampire. 

That job would probably take me 30 days because I wouldn't know what the hell I was doing. Now if I threw you into one of my projects you would be just as lost.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

The one thing that you don't want to do is charge for your lack of experience.


That said, $30 an hour is way too low. Like Tom said it should be up over $50 an hour. I know that this seems like a lot, but to stay in business as a legit contractor that is what is needed.

But we all have been where you are. You will have to live through a couple of losses and break evens before you begin to really understand what you are capable of and how to manage, schedule and organize a job.

10 days for all of that by yourself may be an accurate guess. That would be about what I would set aside for me and one other guy for the two weeks.

It would look something like this:

Day 1 Setup and Demo
Day 2 Plumbing and electric
Day 3 Set the shower pan, Start Drywall and Cement Board
Day 4 Finish Drywall, Cement Board, Water Proof shower walls
Day 5 Start Tiling Shower walls
Day 6 Finish Tiling Shower walls Start Floor
Day 7 Grout tile, Paint walls and Ceilings
Day 8 Install Vanity and Counter Top, Install Base trim if not tiled, Install Transition, Install Toilet, Install Shower Trim and Faucet, Install Shower Door, Install Light fixture(s)
Day 9 Finish what you didn't finish on Day 8
Day 10 Clean up and punchlist

This is just a rough scenario. It's an idea of how I would break it down. After that I figure each day at my rate x2 add my overhead and profit and that is my labor. I would then total my materials. I know how many screws, blades, bits, buckets of mud, tape, paint and the like it would take to do any task (after several years you just know it without having to sit down and figure it out every time). Add all of that up, plus 10% extra, plus over head and profit. Then take the total and see if it looks fair. If it looks too high add another 5% because you will need it in the end and then some.


Good luck!

Rob


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> The one thing that you don't want to do is charge for your lack of experience.
> 
> That said, $30 an hour is way too low. Like Tom said it should be up over $50 an hour. I know that this seems like a lot, but to stay in business as a legit contractor that is what is needed.
> 
> ...


Add another day for waiting for the inspector.


----------



## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

And another for paint----


----------



## carpenj4 (May 30, 2013)

Thanks, everyone, for your honesty. I will certainly recount what I've figured, and take a lot more into consideration with my pricing. Great help, from great people.


----------



## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

carpenj4 said:


> I'm getting ready to submit an estimate to a friend. This is my first estimate and I do not have any other jobs in the future. So I'm a bit scared. Why am I scared? I'm afraid my bid will be too expensive because I have no clue how long the project will take. But I'm taking my best guess. I'm new to this, and have never dealt with pricing. My hourly rate equals out to about $30 an hour (and rightly so, I don't have many tools or a fancy truck.) And I am guessing the project will take me 10 days. Anyway, the job is a bathroom remodel. They want to replace the shower base, the tile, and walls (about 64 square feet), a smaller window, a toilet, and a small vanity / sink. I can do all of the tasks. But I have no clue how long each task will take me. Can anyone help me figure this out? Thanks.


I first sketch out my "best case" scenario. How many days, really, will it take me. Labor in one column. Materials in another. Maybe even a column for other costs, like how much gas I'll be using each day, just to remind myself of those costs. These numbers are just for me, for each step (demo & disposal, framing,.... Then I add a day or so for reality. I also add something to my materials numbers since I always end up underestimating them, anyway. And don't forget to include a whole day for installing the fixtures & trim. Always takes more time than I think for the sink, TP holders, hooks, towel bars, toilet, etc. 

Based on the above, I work backward, writing a detailed scope of work, total number and a time-frame. How I write it is important. I try not to break down costs too much, focusing more on the detailed scope of work. And if I'm trying to show appreciation and "help someone out", I mention where and how specifically. 

The most important thing is to gain confidence in your numbers. Any big round number to a friend can be uncomfortable. It's not like they'll be throwing a big pile of "profit" at you, despite how it may seem to them.


----------



## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Lol wow...

Never seen you guys so nice to a new guy. Must know someone personally to have the rulebook tossed out the window (pricing).

Or are you guys getting tired of being dbags to new guys?


----------



## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

This is the way a new member should be treated----

With respect ---

OP--get yourself to a bookstore and look at some estimating books---most, like the Craftsman series have times listed for various stages of the work---

I am not suggesting you follow the numbers listed in the book---but if your estimate is way lower than the book---you will do well to wonder what they know and what you may be overlooking-----


----------



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Good info on this thread. Thanks to all who contributed.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

It's not what you ask but how you ask. Discussing how to price is different than asking for a price. I will still be hard in any newbie that deserves it. Just see the post from the inspector Jar something. Everyone jumped on that guy


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Driftweed said:


> Lol wow...
> 
> Never seen you guys so nice to a new guy. Must know someone personally to have the rulebook tossed out the window (pricing).
> 
> Or are you guys getting tired of being dbags to new guys?


No we are all still dbags but the guys question was legitimate...unlike most pricing questions.


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

Good to know we are all still d-bags. The horror of anyone finding out we're not :laughing:

To the OP, lots of good info in this thread. It can take years to fine tune estimating. I had a terrible time trying to estimate when I first went on my own. The work I could do, no problem--better than most guys I worked with, but trying to estimate entire jobs was really daunting at first and I've been slowly getting better at it.

Maybe you could offer a cost-plus contract with a "not to exceed" clause until you get the hang of estimating? Keep in mind that bathroom reno's can get WAY involved if there's rot and you need to replace walls, subfloors, etc... So leave a clause for "unforeseen circumstances" which would justify a much larger "not to exceed" number.


----------



## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

The real issue isnt the price. The op knows he should price higher but he cant because he only has one customer. The solution is marketing.


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

carpenj4 said:


> I'm getting ready to submit an estimate to a friend. This is my first estimate and I do not have any other jobs in the future. So I'm a bit scared. Why am I scared? I'm afraid my bid will be too expensive because I have no clue how long the project will take. But I'm taking my best guess. I'm new to this, and have never dealt with pricing. My hourly rate equals out to about $30 an hour (and rightly so, I don't have many tools or a fancy truck.) And I am guessing the project will take me 10 days. Anyway, the job is a bathroom remodel. They want to replace the shower base, the tile, and walls (about 64 square feet), a smaller window, a toilet, and a small vanity / sink. I can do all of the tasks. But I have no clue how long each task will take me. Can anyone help me figure this out? Thanks.


If you have a second guy as a helper, $50/hour is not enough, even if you are paying him only $12-$15 hour...

You need to understand what this hourly cost entails... The first number is how much do you need to NET each year... this is AFTER taxes... even on the low-end of $40K/year after loaded costs (i.e. - taxes, SS, etc.) you are already at $20/hour just for this alone... 

So even with a helper, you would already be at almost $40/hour with loaded costs... and this doesn't even touch all the other costs that go into that hourly cost.

There's lots of reading on this forum on what this hourly cost entails... 

One thing you need to understand is the money you THINK you will making (i.e. - $30/hour) sounds like $75K/year if you could keep busy, but is nowhere near reality...

*L*abor
*O*verhead
*M*aterials 
*P*rofit

No need to retype it all... look it up on this site... there are detailed threads discussing this topic...

Being that this is your first estimate... One thing I would recommend is whatever number you ultimately come up with for hourly, multiply it by a factor of 1.25 to get the number that will help keep you from paying for the job...

If you are not going to use a second guy, you have to INCREASE the amount of time on the job... which means more money to add to the estimate...

By you saying $30 and hour, IMHO when you have properly calculated your costs, if you are not SHOCKED by the number, something is off...

Whether it is a friend or not, a contract MUST be involved... Best of luck... 8^)


----------



## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

I started out about that low and added $5 per hour to each estimate after that for quite a while. However, I think I was still able to survive at that rate working full time, but only because I'm stable to begin with. No loans, no debt, no kids, another income from my better half, a chunk of savings from previous job.


----------



## dave_dj1 (Mar 16, 2010)

Don't be scared! Make an educated summary of the materials and labor involved, go from there. We all have made mistakes and we move on and use the mistake as a learning tool. No one wants to lose money or work for free, we try hard to actually make money. If you are unsure of your capabilities of estimating this job, be honest with your friend, do it per hr and keep very good records so in the future when you encounter a project that is similar you will have the info and experience you need.
PROFIT is not a dirty word!

I break every aspect of the job down and turn it into man hours, the material is easy to figure.


----------



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

People new to the business are far more likely to lose their shirts because they forget to allow for certain tasks and materials or underestimate the time than because of their rate. The higher labor rate is what saves your butt when you do make this kind of mistake though.

After writing that out I realized that it's a lot easier to just mark your rate up 40% right off the bat than to accurately estimate project times and then have the faith in yourself to trust your numbers.


----------



## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

EthanB said:


> After writing that out I realized that it's a lot easier to just mark your rate up 40% right off the bat than to accurately estimate project times and then have the faith in yourself to trust your numbers.


Exactly, but when I was starting out I fell to the same fear. I get where he is coming from since we've all been there.

I also think he is in for some hard knocks on this one and how he handles it will speak volumes on future quoting.

The turn around in this business is high because it's somewhat easy to get into, and way easier to get out.


----------



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

rselectric1 said:


> Exactly, but when I was starting out I fell to the same fear. I get where he is coming from since we've all been there.
> 
> I also think he is in for some hard knocks on this one and how he handles it will speak volumes on future quoting.
> 
> The turn around in this business is high because it's somewhat easy to get into, and way easier to get out.


I know exactly what you mean. After a four year sabbatical from remodeling I was both shorting the hours on projects and shorting my rate. I've been steadily improving both but last year was a solid year for work and my year end numbers showed that I still wasn't charging enough as it isn't possible to work more hours.:no:

OP, no matter how much you want a job don't do it for free. My first major project on my own(13 years ago) turned out beautifully, the customer's were a bit disappointed at the cost but loved the work, and I took home a staggering $4.50 per hour, before taxes and expenses of course.


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

OP.... learn to charge NOW and how much it REALLY costs before you find yourself stuck on a rob Peter to pay Paul cycle... This is the time to develop that pricing muscle BEFORE you get trapped...

Don't worry... If it turns out you charged too much, you could always refund what you think you didn't deserve... :whistling

Best of luck... 8^)


Let us know how it turns out... :thumbsup:


----------



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

We have no idea if this guy is starting a business or just doing this job for a friend. 


The big seduction in this proffession is the deception of the salary. When you start out you do great work to impress the customer and charge too little. You quickly find yourself busy like that and loose track of where the money goes making deposit and handling all of the money for vendors.

After beating yourself over the head and blaming every possible cause like....new experience, never used this product, need of better tools, if my help was on time, if the delivery wasnt screwed up, if the weather was better... you realize what Ethan B said, there is only so much time you could work to pay all the bills associated with being self employed. Plan on 10 months or less of billable recovery.


----------



## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

KAP said:


> OP.... learn to charge NOW and how much it REALLY costs before you find yourself stuck on a rob Peter to pay Paul cycle... This is the time to develop that pricing muscle BEFORE you get trapped...


Or worse. Develop a reputation as a cheap, get it done guy. Cheap clients will recommend a cheap contractor to other like minded cheap clients who will also take advantage of your talents. BTDT.

I dismissed them all with higher pricing pretty quickly years back.:clap:

(But I did go through that cycle too when building the business, so don't feel bad )


----------



## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> Good to know we are all still d-bags. The horror of anyone finding out we're not :laughing:
> 
> To the OP, lots of good info in this thread. It can take years to fine tune estimating. I had a terrible time trying to estimate when I first went on my own. The work I could do, no problem--better than most guys I worked with, but trying to estimate entire jobs was really daunting at first and I've been slowly getting better at it.
> 
> Maybe you could offer a cost-plus contract with a "not to exceed" clause until you get the hang of estimating? Keep in mind that bathroom reno's can get WAY involved if there's rot and you need to replace walls, subfloors, etc... So leave a clause for "unforeseen circumstances" which would justify a much larger "not to exceed" number.



I have never understood the benefit to the contractor to have a NTE clause. No chance to charge more than an hourly rate, but a chance to work for free.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TxElectrician said:


> I have never understood the benefit to the contractor to have a NTE clause. No chance to charge more than an hourly rate, but a chance to work for free.


There is nothing that makes sense about NTE unless you like being screwed.


----------



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

TxElectrician said:


> I have never understood the benefit to the contractor to have a NTE clause. No chance to charge more than an hourly rate, but a chance to work for free.


That is how the guy I used to work for priced almost all his work...he is out of business and broke.

It is also a good way to get unmotivated employees. We did a big gambrel roof. Tear off and reroof. Very hard dangerous work. Very high and the roof would turn into a vertical wall in spots. He gave the NTE price figuring 5 days to do it. That was a realistic amount of time to complete the job. We were a good team of 4 guys, busted our butts and got it done in 2.5 days. HO gets charged for 2.5 days.

Why work hard? He's not making any money, which means for all my hard work I'm not going to be looking at a higher hourly rate. Why work at being more efficient? There is so much wrong with NTE I'm not even going to start.


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Spencer said:


> That is how the guy I used to work for priced almost all his work...he is out of business and broke.
> 
> It is also a good way to get unmotivated employees. We did a big gambrel roof. Tear off and reroof. Very hard dangerous work. Very high and the roof would turn into a vertical wall in spots. He gave the NTE price figuring 5 days to do it. That was a realistic amount of time to complete the job. We were a good team of 4 guys, busted our butts and got it done in 2.5 days. HO gets charged for 2.5 days.
> 
> Why work hard? He's not making any money, which means for all my hard work I'm not going to be looking at a higher hourly rate. Why work at being more efficient? There is so much wrong with NTE I'm not even going to start.


Oh how I despise anybody works with this mentality. 

You want to be the kind of man who's work is as good as you got, whether you are making $1.00 per hour or a zillion an hour. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, NTE is a cap on expenses not a fixed number for a given job.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Roofcheck said:


> Oh how I despise anybody works with this mentality.
> 
> You want to be the kind of man who's work is as good as you got, whether you are making $1.00 per hour or a zillion an hour.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, NTE is a cap on expenses not a fixed number for a given job.


Correct it's a cap...but what do you do when you hit that cap early?:whistling


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Unforeseen's or just bad NTE estimate? 

Unforeseen's shouldn't apply. 

Bad estimate on the NTE, well sprinkle some salt and pepper on it and eat it.


----------



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Roofcheck said:


> Oh how I despise anybody works with this mentality.
> 
> You want to be the kind of man who's work is as good as you got, whether you are making $1.00 per hour or a zillion an hour.


Sorry, I don't like working for people who suck at business. Who said my work changed. To quote Charlie Sheen, "I have one gear......go."



> Correct me if I'm wrong, NTE is a cap on expenses not a fixed number for a given job.


Not what I was talking about. Around here it goes like this, HO wants to know how much a project is going to cost. Doesn't want a bid because that means a contractor has to account for unforseen's, doesn't want T&M because contractor can milk the job. So contractor says, we will do T&M and it won't exceed this amount $XX. HO wins. HO is ok with max price but has the could get lucky option if things go well. Contractor opens himself up to the risk of really getting screwed and if things go well he still gets his hourly rate. No real incentive to work hard, fast, efficient, and smart other than if you don't you lose your arse.


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

TxElectrician said:


> I have never understood the benefit to the contractor to have a NTE clause. No chance to charge more than an hourly rate, but a chance to work for free.


The reason I mentioned it because Massachusetts law is engrained in my brain. I personally have never done a NTE contract. In Massachusetts it's illegal to work hourly for anything requiring a permit (as well as not accepting more than 1/3 contract price up front--minus deposits for materials, etc.). A price needs to specified so the NTE clause is a way to work hourly while setting a price.


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> Correct it's a cap...but what do you do when you hit that cap early?:whistling


How's that any different from quoting a price and hitting the cap early? :confused1:


----------



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> How's that any different from quoting a price and hitting the cap early? :confused1:


If you are using quote and bid in a synonymous way then there is a big difference. If you quote/bid it, then if you come in low you get to keep the difference. 

With a quote/bid or NTE you are screwed in both cases if you go over, but the risk/reward is completely different when you get to keep the difference when you come in low.


----------



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> The reason I mentioned it because Massachusetts law is engrained in my brain. I personally have never done a NTE contract. In Massachusetts it's illegal to work hourly for anything requiring a permit (as well as not accepting more than 1/3 contract price up front--minus deposits for materials, etc.). A price needs to specified so the NTE clause is a way to work hourly while setting a price.


Never even heard of that. I'm in small town Indiana. I would venture to guess that less than 10% of residential jobs even get a contract drawn up around here.

I like the idea of the law. I am competitive and think it would be to my benefit. Isn't Massachusetts a liberal state? Probably won't happen in Indiana, we don't get a lot of laws like that.


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

Spencer said:


> If you are using quote and bid in a synonymous way then there is a big difference. If you quote/bid it, then if you come in low you get to keep the difference.
> 
> With a quote/bid or NTE you are screwed in both cases if you go over, but the risk/reward is completely different when you get to keep the difference when you come in low.


I understand (& completely agree with) that. But in this situation, I think it's best for the OP. if he gives a quote that's too high (since he doesn't know how long it will take him) he won't get the job, with nothing on the horizon. 

If he enters a NTE agreement, he can give a fairly high price based on the unforeseen circumstance scenario, still land the job, make the rate he deserves, hopefully come in under, and get a good reference.

I don't think the NTE clause is for everybody (definitely not me) but for the OP & his situation, I think it's a win/win for both parties.


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

Spencer said:


> Never even heard of that. I'm in small town Indiana. I would venture to guess that less than 10% of residential jobs even get a contract drawn up around here.
> 
> I like the idea of the law. I am competitive and think it would be to my benefit. Isn't Massachusetts a liberal state? Probably won't happen in Indiana, we don't get a lot of laws like that.


The red tape in MA is ridiculous. We have to have a "Home Improvement Contractor" Registration which we pay $100/yr (or 2 yrs, can't remember) this money goes to a guaranty fund so if the homeowner gets screwed by a contractor, they are awarded a portion of this fund (I think up to $5k). It is this program that doesn't allow us to collect more than 1/3 up front and have us provide a complete price, and a payment schedule with specific dates. I wonder how many contractors out here besides myself actually follow these rules. :whistling


http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/consumer/...-improvement-contractor-frequently-asked.html


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> How's that any different from quoting a price and hitting the cap early? :confused1:


Does this even warrant a response?

Because there is reward if you finish early...


----------

