# How Do You Bid?



## Kyras (Jan 2, 2010)

Haha. No, really. Do you bid by the sq ft or the job or the item. Not that there is a right answer.

I bid by the day (plus materials obviously). That takes into account complexity, distance, etc. It's the only way I've ever bid, but then, I don't sub anything out. I work hard and I know what I can get done in a day.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

By the job...after costing it out and adding for complexity items like patterns, borders, niches, benches, extensive prep, etc. If you live and die by sf pricing in the custom tile trade, you will be out of business at the worst and leaving boatloads of money on the table at the least, imo. If you do a lot of wide open floor work, I suppose it works out fine. 99% of the stuff I do is under 500sf and is almost always custom to some degree.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I bid similarly. I use hourly for demo and rebuilding of structure/substrate if need be. I then use sq ft for a basic figure for determining setting material cost. Pattern depends but will figure that hourly. I figure mldg by linear ft and use a fixed cost per jamb cut. 

I know you (Kyras) don't use the orange stuff but I bid that per sq ft as it's ridiculously easy to install. There is rarely an anomaly to Ditra. 

For my proposals, I NEVER break them down by sq ft. For one, because that's not how I configure a bid and two, if my proposals are ever compared to another contractor's bid, it looks like apples to oranges. An inexperienced tile guy could not decipher my proposal to be able to contradict or compare to it to his. 

I also believe by breaking down each step and then giving a total cost, it is an easier sale.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

angus242 said:


> I bid similarly. I use hourly for demo and rebuilding of structure/substrate if need be. I then use sq ft for a basic figure for determining setting material cost. Pattern depends but will figure that hourly. I figure mldg by linear ft and use a fixed cost per jamb cut.
> 
> I know you (Kyras) don't use the orange stuff but I bid that per sq ft as it's ridiculously easy to install. There is rarely an anomaly to Ditra.
> 
> ...


While I am not a tile guy, This past week I have had the pleasure of doing my two baths and kitchen. Most customers probably have no idea how many steps are involved in a tile job. I like your approach of breaking it down so that they can see the process and understand the necessary steps.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

PrecisionFloors said:


> If you live and die by sf pricing in the custom tile trade, you will be out of business at the worst and leaving boatloads of money on the table at the least, imo.


I'd have to agree. I have seen some of our tile subs cost themselves right out of some jobs because they have stuck to one system without standing back sometimes and considering the entire picture, while the guy who did the job made a good buck simply because he was using a different method to figure his price based upon the unique circumstances involved with that project. Sq ft might be a good place to start, but I think you have to do a gut check, stand back, walk around the table once, and sit back down and make sure you aren't locking yourself into either screwing yourself by not getting the job or even worse screwing yourself if you do get the job.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> I'd have to agree. I have seen some of our tile subs cost themselves right out of some jobs because they have stuck to one system without standing back sometimes and considering the entire picture, while the guy who did the job made a good buck simply because he was using a different method to figure his price based upon the unique circumstances involved with that project. Sq ft might be a good place to start, but I think you have to do a gut check, stand back, walk around the table once, and sit back down and make sure you aren't locking yourself into either screwing yourself by not getting the job *or even worse screwing yourself if you do get the job.*



Ain't that the truth. Been there, done that, got the minimum wage paycheck and was too broke to spring for the t-shirt. 

Like Angus, I do break down the major steps of the job on my bid...but that's about it. I ain't giving nobody the ammo to shoot me down with. If their gonna do that, their gonna have to earn it.


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## Kyras (Jan 2, 2010)

I might break like this:

Master shower Tile$ Mat$ Labor$ Total$
Master floor Tile$ Mat$ Labor$ Total$
Foyer floor Tile$ Mat$ Labor$ Total$
Totals Tile$ Mat$ Labor$ Total$

Adding it up top to bottom of column=bottom number
Adding it up across the row=Row amount
Adding the last column to the bottom = adding the bottom row as a double check.

I don't always break it down like that for a customer, but I usually figure it like that. So when they change the tile in the foyer, or add sq ft to the master shower you don't have to start all over.

Plus, if doing a whole house full of stuff (like 10-15 items listed) it becomes easy to make a draw. Look, all the materials delivered, that's this amount you owe me. Plus, the master shower is 90% complete, so here's the bill for 90% labor. You decided to supply all the tile, so that's easily taken out of the equation. Everyone understands exactly where we are in the job.

That system is a leftover from when I ran a much larger company. It took years to refine stuff like that into a system. I recommend it highly in certain situations because it makes for good relations with the contractor.

Oh, and all my materials bids are based on an equation. Durock+laminating thinset+tilesetting thinset+tape+nails+waste+profit+grout+sealer= this sq ft price. In the case of a durock floor, that's 1.80/sq ft. All setting systems are broken down like that, which makes it much quicker to bid. It takes a little while to sit down and add it all up, but it saves hours for the rest of your life.

And then there is a piece work price fro a niche, a seat, lineal foot of polishing limestone vs marble vs granite vs bullnose. I don't bother to break it down into really small parts, but you could.

Ideally, the system should enable anyone with a small amount of training to bid a job if it is well designed. At one point I devised a slide rule. Slide it to the sq feet and type of work. The price shows in the window. I don't worry so much about stuff like that now because my bidding requirements are small. I used to bid jobs non-stop. It takes a lot of wood to fuel the fire for 14 guys.

For the record, stay small. It's far more enjoyable. But you should still use systems to some extent. I could go on about job numbers and circular accounting but I'm beat. I set way too much tile today.


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## Ed4x4 (Nov 24, 2009)

Kyras, I like your style! I had a problem this weekend with a customer wanted a bid broke down, had I done it this way, it would have saved me the time of having to subtract numbers from the total to see what was material (carpet, pad, ect..) and what was labor. I generally just get the measurements and then add the material and labor into one number and forget about the individual costs.

Good info right there! I'll definately consider your layout on my next bid. I'll probaby combine all the numbers into one sum when I present the bid, but have a broken down copy for myself. If something changes, I know right where to go.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

Kyras said:


> For the record, stay small. It's far more enjoyable. But you should still use systems to some extent..


Smaller definitely allows you to focus and speak with more confidence when telling a customer how something is going to be done! 

As far as bidding I break it down as well; example:

Bathroom Remodel

Demo $
Plumbing/Electrical $ (separating big ticket items in (); tub/lights/etc)
Ceramic surround$ (separate allowance for tile)
Walls & Floor $(separating tile)
Other$ (vanities, mirrors, towel bars; every fixture price separated)

Then the total.

Most of the time it seems the customer will think they'll get a better deal on the materials that I've alloted and then run all over to purchase! 90% of the time they spend more.

As far as consistancy with bidding? :blink: I have quickbooks that allows me to see my profits of each job, but each job seems to have its own set of difficulties or tedious tasks that seem to make me feel like it wasn't quite enough..... Maybe its because I'm bidding for just me now rather than a crew and I'm the one doing everything or maybe its not seeing the larger flow of money that once was when I did have a crew (which is definitely a false sense of security)


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