# Open shop labor rates



## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

Open Shop rate means what would you charge with your doors open instead of closed.


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## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

We use the term around here somewhat. I may have it muddled but I believe *open shop* pricing means when your doing non-union work.

Not a lot of union work here so most union shops send they're guys over into the next county, where there is a demand for union workers. It's a long ride, so we have "*open shops*" where they take in both union and non-union jobs. The rates vary. Here the union jobs (rate) pays better, but there is the ride to consider.

I believe '*closed shops*' only do union work, and only take union workers. *Open shops* hire both union and non-union. Obviously only the union guys go on the union work, and work for the lower rate when doing non-union stuff.

So I believe...


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## MLScott&Sons (Aug 28, 2010)

*open shop rates*

We do both open shop and prevailing wage work. Prevailing wages are documented, and in my exp. enforced. For instance in Phila PA. (There are different rates for different areas.) I pay a certified welder About $76.00/hr. This is the total package, It inc ins. bonus, vacation( we base ours on days worked so I have a documented value to deduct from the total package). A laborer is $45.50 same deducts apply. Alot of paperwork is involved in doing prevailing wage work. You Must be able to prove you paid your employees what you are supposed to.

On the other hand for open shop work I pay a welder around $28.00 and a laborer $16.00
Profit and overhead are set on what the market will allow.
Personally(I know negative responses are coming), I feel that the rates that we as employers are required to pay Are a large part of the reason that are economy is in the state it is in


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## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

A town nearby is trying to get a new metal firehouse built. The whole town is complaining about the cost due to to the prevailing wage laws. 

I don't know enough about it to comment, but I think the spread between prevailing and non prevailing is alarming. Guess being a union worker has it's perks. :whistling


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

jkfox624 said:


> I tried charging a million an hour once. I figured a days work and i'd be set. Sadly no one ever bit. :furious:


then you should've learned better selling skills...Bernie Madoff was able to do it...


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

open shop rates

if you leave us alone $ 00.00 per hour

if you watch $ 000.00 per hour

if you help $ 0,000.00 per hour​
fill in with your labor rate.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Jaf said:


> A town nearby is trying to get a new metal firehouse built. The whole town is complaining about the cost due to to the prevailing wage laws.
> 
> I don't know enough about it to comment, but I think the spread between prevailing and non prevailing is alarming. Guess being a union worker has it's perks. :whistling



You aren't comparing residential to commercial wages are you? Commercial work has a lot more required know how than residential.


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## claymation (Aug 11, 2010)

mahlere said:


> ... and your desired lifestyle.


I gotta raise my rates!


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## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> You aren't comparing residential to commercial wages are you? Commercial work has a lot more required know how than residential.


From the business end yes. But labor is labor, A bag of cement weighs the same whether its residential or commercial. Temperatures the same, heights are the same. Prevailing wage is what the worker is taking in right? Not what's getting charged out.

Also in a lot of commercial work, workers specialize. Not so much in residential.

Don't get me wrong from my previous post. Let the town get upset. I think they should pay it. I think residential should _get more_. I don't think commercial should get less. That's why I get fired up a bit, when insurance people talk about rates. It would be nice to make the insurance companies pay the prevailing wage. :thumbup:

The biggest difference in commercial compared to residential, is that you don't have to compete with Tom & Jerry, the building inspectors actually do their jobs.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Jaf said:


> From the business end yes. But labor is labor, A bag of cement weighs the same whether its residential or commercial. Temperatures the same, heights are the same. Prevailing wage is what the worker is taking in right? Not what's getting charged out.
> 
> Also in a lot of commercial work, workers specialize. Not so much in residential.
> 
> ...


BS I did residential for ten years and commercial for the last 5. Residential guys are not as knowledgeable as they think they are. Yes some are better than others but it just isn't so. In a residential project it can years before millions of dollar change hands. I.E. a tract
In a commercial project that is one building. And you don't hire residential guys to build it either.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I spent years doing both. I have ran multi-million dollar hospitals (plumbing) to hundreds of cookie cutter houses day after day.

Lets not get into this guys, everybody works their tail off here:thumbsup:

Mike


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I no longer have a tail to work off


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

I wasn't trying to be rude. But it is pretty bad when even the nonunion commercial outfits hiring have to put in their for hire ads. Not looking for residential framers. :blink:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I no longer have a tail to work off


Yeah....I know that feeling also!

Mike


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## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

JustaFramer said:


> BS I did residential for ten years and commercial for the last 5. Residential guys are not as knowledgeable as they think they are. Yes some are better than others but it just isn't so. In a residential project it can years before millions of dollar change hands. I.E. a tract
> In a commercial project that is one building. And you don't hire residential guys to build it either.


No problem here Framer. It's all different niches. Non-union, Open shop, closed shop. Throw in Commercial vs. Residential, New-Building vs. Remodeling. It's all work. I was only looking at the difference between the rates paid for the actual labor, $75 vs $20ish. I pay roughly $25-30 to other carpenters, I bill out for more obviously. When things get thin, it can drop down to $20 at times. 

I do commercial as well for about the same rate. I don't do union or prevailing wage work. I don't know squat about it, wish I did. Maybe its something I should look into, if its paying those rates. The overhead or risks must be higher. I'm not ignorant enough to not know there's many a catch somewhere.

I was only answering the OPs question to the best of my knowledge. I believe I did that. I was only whistling whistling) at the rates prevailing rates pay. I only wish I could find a way to get a slice of it. That's not BS.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Jaf said:


> No problem here Framer. It's all different niches. Non-union, Open shop, closed shop. Throw in Commercial vs. Residential, New-Building vs. Remodeling. It's all work. I was only looking at the difference between the rates paid for the actual labor, $75 vs $20ish. I pay roughly $25-30 to other carpenters, I bill out for more obviously. When things get thin, it can drop down to $20 at times.
> 
> I do commercial as well for about the same rate. I don't do union or prevailing wage work. I don't know squat about it, wish I did. Maybe its something I should look into, if its paying those rates. The overhead or risks must be higher. I'm not ignorant enough to not know there's many a catch somewhere.
> 
> I was only answering the OPs question to the best of my knowledge. I believe I did that. I was only whistling whistling) at the rates prevailing rates pay. I only wish I could find a way to get a slice of it. That's not BS.


$75 per hr is not a typical prevailing wage salary. In my area $50-$65 is more in line for a skilled trade. Keep in mind that includes money in the pay check, ALL health benefits, retirement packages, and any other benefits. Once you deduct the benefits the pay check amount is usually in the $30-$40 per hour range. Still higher then your $25-$30 range but not as extreme. Unless you are including any benefits you give employees in that $25-$30 per hour.

I do agree with the earlier post that the gap is too large between the two. I also agree that the residential/non-union side should come up, not the commercial/ union side needs to come down. I think we are all sick of this race to the bottom in the construction industry.:thumbsup:


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> I wasn't trying to be rude. But it is pretty bad when even the nonunion commercial outfits hiring have to put in their for hire ads. Not looking for residential framers. :blink:


I don't want to be rude either but do you think if I ran a help wanted ad I could get away with " commercial carpenters need not apply? I have often seen bumper stickers that read " Proud to be a union carpenter". What do you think the response would be if I made one that read "Proud to be a Non Union carpenter"?

I have also worked both over the years and I will give you that they are completely different animals. But to imply that somehow the commercial workers are somehow more intelligent is ridiculous.


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## smeagol (May 13, 2008)

I've worked both union commercial and nonunion residential.

The hardest worker was a union superintendent at Donlar const. The sharpest a nonunion lead.

There are bad apples in both, but the worst carpenters overall were the union ones with the relationships/friendships with the supes/pm.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Warren said:


> I don't want to be rude either but do you think if I ran a help wanted ad I could get away with " commercial carpenters need not apply? I have often seen bumper stickers that read " Proud to be a union carpenter". What do you think the response would be if I made one that read "Proud to be a Non Union carpenter"?
> 
> I have also worked both over the years and I will give you that they are completely different animals. But to imply that somehow the commercial workers are somehow more intelligent is ridiculous.



Your funny I didn't say anything about union. I just said commercial. I work nonunion commercial. The only guys I know that are die hard union are the old codgers that put all that time in for a sh!tty pension. I am not going to discuss my wages past and present with you. But let's just say I have been paid well the majority of the time. 

As for the ad I think you read what I said wrong. It was the nonunion commercial contractors running those ads. If you want to run it go ahead. If it makes you feel better I will send you those numbers when I see them. So you can call them and give them a piece of your mind. Wound a little tight today. :laughing: That is also a common add to the hire ad of most residential remodel contractors around here too. You want me send those to you too?:laughing:

No I said commercial workers are more skilled than most residential carpenters. I didn't say there was none. I say from my own conclusion is that skilled commercial journeyman carpenters are more skilled. If you don't like that cry me a river.:laughing:


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

A lot has to do with the financial and government programs that can control what they finance in some way. If they do not the financing, the job may not be built. It is not necessarily Union, but the cost figures from contractors that furnish the cost and wage information. This history influences the cost estimates and financing options.


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