# "Need" a non-Hilti SDS hammer



## tesseract (Dec 21, 2006)

Hey all... I specialize in doing minimally-invasive re-wires of wood frame houses but I just finished doing one on a 50's era concrete block house w/ a stucco interior that came within a gnat's hair of whipping me. I did get the job done, though, and as a result, the h/o (unfortunately??) referred me to their neighbors... If I were a sensible man I'd turn the job down, but instead I see this as an excellent excuse to buy some new tools. :thumbsup:

Since I mainly do wood-frame houses (them's the ones most needing re-wiring, and usually as a result of an ultimatum from the h/o's insurance company, not because the h/o actually *wants* new wiring... :whistling), I won't be using a demo/roto hammer on a daily basis, nor will I need to drive 4" core drill bits like a plumber, so I figure a medium-duty SDS or SDS-Plus hammer will be about right. I did look at the Hilti TE 7C, but I was distinctly unimpressed with it's chipping performance and the pushy Hilti sales reps really turn me off, so I'd like to avoid having to deal with them unless there is an overwhelming benefit. I've read some bad things about the Bosch and Milwaukee hammers, some good things about the Hitachi's, but nothing or not much about the Dewalt's and Makita's. Any comments or suggestions from those that own 'em would be most appreciated.


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## Plank (Oct 11, 2007)

Bosch makes some of the best imo


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## Forry (Feb 12, 2007)

I've got the makita and it does just fine.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

My daily one is the Milwaukee 5321-21


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## tesseract (Dec 21, 2006)

Thanks for the reply, Plank. I stopped by a local pro tool store (Jim & Slim's) to get some flex bits and looked at their selection of rotary hammers. Oddly enough, after the salesman there asked me about my intended usage he suggested the Bosch 11236VS, which at $280 (their price) seems real reasonable compared to the $405 Hilti.

BUT... this is one of the models that has a couple of negative reviews on Amazon. BUT... those reviews are from 2001 and 2004, so perhaps taken with a grain of salt... Dunno. Anyway, Jim & Slim's is having a Bosch promotion on the 25th so the salesman told me to come back then to get it if I wanted to save a few bucks and maybe get a free bit or two thrown in.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

I use a Hilti, it will outlast a Bosch 5 years to one.


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## Plank (Oct 11, 2007)

Good choice on the Bosch.....I'll check tomorrow to see what I can get one for....usually can get some pretty sweet deals.


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## troubleseeker (Sep 24, 2006)

Had a Bosch that did not even last two years, and that is with really mininum usage on it. Replaced it with a Hilti, which has worked fine for more than four years so far. I do tend to agree though, It owuld make me feel like I was accomplishing more if the hammer action was stronger, but it gets the job done.


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## dlcj (Oct 1, 2007)

from what i hear, Hilti is the best but i have a Dewalt sds d-handle with 3 mode transmission. You can choose between drill, hammer, or hammer drill. works great if you need to chip a hole through block or brick bigger than the bit you have.It list for about $225 but i got it for $100 from a guy who never used it.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

I use a Bosch for removing tile, glue down hardwood, brick & slate hearths, etc. Have used it brutally for hours at a time and never had a hiccup.


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## tesseract (Dec 21, 2006)

Excellent feedback, guys. 

Forry: Which Makita? I was looking at a couple along with the Bosch that seemed real promising.

mdshunk: I see you are in the same trade as me but if the 5321-21 is your daily rotohammer I'm guessing you lean more towards commercial and industrial work. What do you mainly use your's for (core drilling conduit runs?)

troubleseeker: Which Bosch did you have problems with and which Hilti did you end up getting? I didn't feel that the TE 7C had enough chipping oomph to justify it's $405 price and that's about the max I have budgeted for this tool.

PrecisionFloors: sounds like whichever Bosch you are using would be more than enough tool for my level of usage... which one do you have?

To the Hilti fans in general: Hilti certainly has a reputation for making the best rotary hammers, and maybe rightfully so, but given that I will be using it to knock out a few holes in concrete block *maybe* a few times per month does it really make sense to buy an $800 Hilti when a $300 Bosch will do?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Here ya go
http://bosch.cpotools.com/hammers_and_hammer_drills/rotary_and_combination_hammers/sds-plus_hammers/11236vs.html


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

tesseract said:


> To the Hilti fans in general: Hilti certainly has a reputation for making the best rotary hammers, and maybe rightfully so, but given that I will be using it to knock out a few holes in concrete block *maybe* a few times per month does it really make sense to buy an $800 Hilti when a $300 Bosch will do?


Hilti makes a better overall tool, period. My boss has a couple TE-21's that are 25 years old and work as good as new. So the question I ask is, would you rather buy a new Bosch every five years or so, or buy a Hilti once?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

tesseract said:


> mdshunk: I see you are in the same trade as me but if the 5321-21 is your daily rotohammer I'm guessing you lean more towards commercial and industrial work. What do you mainly use your's for (core drilling conduit runs?)


No, I mostly do service. I think I did my reasearch pretty well on that purchase, as the goal was to have a rotohammer that would do 99% of any task I'd normally need a rotohammer for. I really needed one that would core up to at least 5", because I do that pretty often for dryer vents and bath fan vents. That turns a one hour job into a 2 minute job.


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## tesseract (Dec 21, 2006)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> Hilti makes a better overall tool, period. My boss has a couple TE-21's that are 25 years old and work as good as new. So the question I ask is, would you rather buy a new Bosch every five years or so, or buy a Hilti once?



Actually, I really would rather buy a new version of a power tool - not necessarily the Bosch in this instance - every 5 years if for no other reason than technology marches onward. Also, it's easy to choose the most expensive tool when someone else is doing the buying, but when *you* have to pony up the cash it's funny how you start to consider other things like how often will I be using the tool, how much abuse does it need to withstand, what jobs do I have coming up that will justify its purchase, etc... Sure, I don't doubt that the Hilti will last a lot longer, but what I'm saying is that's not always the most important factor in every tool purchasing decision. 


_mdshunk_: I like your style - using a core drill to install a dryer vent makes total sense. What sort of arbor and bit do you use?


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

tesseract said:


> Actually, I really would rather buy a new version of a power tool - not necessarily the Bosch in this instance - every 5 years if for no other reason than technology marches onward. Also, it's easy to choose the most expensive tool when someone else is doing the buying, but when *you* have to pony up the cash it's funny how you start to consider other things like how often will I be using the tool, how much abuse does it need to withstand, what jobs do I have coming up that will justify its purchase, etc... Sure, I don't doubt that the Hilti will last a lot longer, but what I'm saying is that's not always the most important factor in every tool purchasing decision.


I'm betting you are GenX, or even GenY age? These can be hard concepts for those of us raised by children of the Great Depression to wrap our minds around. More and more I'm coming to see your point of view--in some situations. But "will it last forever" is still usually the first thing that comes to mind. Glad I have a son to argue these things with!


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## dlcj (Oct 1, 2007)

tesseract said:


> Actually, I really would rather buy a new version of a power tool - not necessarily the Bosch in this instance - every 5 years if for no other reason than technology marches onward.
> Through them 5 year old tools my way. Ill usem till there dead.:hammer:


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## WoodWizard (Sep 7, 2007)

*Hilti all the way*

IMO Hilti will outperform and outlast all the others. I tried and killed plenty of hammer drills before switching to Hilti and I would never go back. I have 3 Hilti hammer drills in various sizes and one of their chipping/demo hammers and they all work great!

I've been looking at selling my Hilti TE25 hammer drill so let me know if you're interested.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

tesseract said:


> Actually, I really would rather buy a new version of a power tool - not necessarily the Bosch in this instance - every 5 years if for no other reason than technology marches onward. Also, it's easy to choose the most expensive tool when someone else is doing the buying, but when *you* have to pony up the cash it's funny how you start to consider other things like how often will I be using the tool, how much abuse does it need to withstand, what jobs do I have coming up that will justify its purchase, etc... Sure, I don't doubt that the Hilti will last a lot longer, but what I'm saying is that's not always the most important factor in every tool purchasing decision.
> 
> 
> _mdshunk_: I like your style - using a core drill to install a dryer vent makes total sense. What sort of arbor and bit do you use?


I own all my tools, including power tools. As I have power tools go up in smoke on me, I have been replacing them with Hilti tools, because the quality difference really is that significant, and their service on broken tools is second to none. I dropped off a laser that an apprentice dropped from an 8' ladder, and had the tool back in four days.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

tesseract said:


> _mdshunk_: I like your style - using a core drill to install a dryer vent makes total sense. What sort of arbor and bit do you use?


I use the spline drive arbor, since my rotohammer is spline drive. I use Milwaukee's thinwall core bits, since I can't think of a compelling reason to use a thickwall core bit, and it's easier on the drill. Don't know if you've ever cored much or not, but you just spot a little hole in the middle with a small bit, then the core bit has a pointed plunger that will hold you centered in your centering hole until you have a "groove" with the core bit cut in 1/2" deep or so. Remove the centering plunger from the core bit, and core the rest of the way through the material. 

A side note... do not buy Hamilton Core Bits off eBay. They are the biggest pieces of crap I've ever had the displeasure of owning.


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## POOLMANinCT (Oct 7, 2006)

if you don't want to brealm the bank, I recommend makitas.

loved my hiltis, enjoy my makitas & hated my bosches.

ray


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## BigMikeB (Aug 1, 2007)

I have several Bosch hammer drills that are going on 10 years old with no problems, my jig saw must be 20 without a hitch. I also have a 30 year old Hilti from my dad but I won't spend the money for what I have seen of the new tools they have in the depot. The battery recip saw they have looks completely awkward.


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## tesseract (Dec 21, 2006)

Thanks for all of the responses, guys - keep 'em coming. *This* (and Amazon, oh, and ebay) is what the internet is good for.

In the interests of science, I bought 3 different SDS rotary hammers today and tested them by drilling several 7/8" holes with each through 4" thick concrete, standard cinder blocks, as well as chiseling a few tiles off a shower surround (the weekend project). This is by no means an exhaustive test, and this won't be a full scale review, but I did get some interesting results and I'll share them with you all.

First off, the contenders (please don't laugh!): the Bosch 11236VS (2.6ft-lbs impact energy, $319 from Home Despot); the Makita HR2455X (2.0ft-lbs impact energy, $179 from a local pro tool store); and the real Cinderella story here, Harbor Freight's 41983 (unknown impact energy, on sale for $59.99).

Average time through 4" fully cured concrete:
Bosch 1236VS: 33s
Makita HR2455X: 45s
HF 41983: 38s

Through cinder block:
11236VS: ~4s with heavy spalling on the underside of the hole
2455X: ~4s with little spalling
41983: ~7s with heavy spalling

Just for kicks, I chucked the SDS bit into my Makita Li-Ion hammer-drill (tricky, but possible) and it took an average of 72s?! Rotary hammers really are faster than hammer drills... go figure. 

Finally, the tile chiseling test, which wasn't nearly as rigorous as the already informal hole drilling tests... I used a special-purpose bit for this (Bosch HS1465) rather than a plain old scaling chisel. Not surprisingly, the rotohammer that drilled through concrete the fastest (the Bosch 11236VS) was also the fastest at separating tiles bedded with thinset, not mastic, from the wall (in this case, not-to-code 1/2" drywall). Unfortunately for me, it was so fast that if the chisel wasn't angled very shallowly it just plowed right on through the wall... and I got a couple of nice holes into my bedroom as a result. I don't blame the tool, though, as it was clearly the result of the operator having no clue here.

The Makita HR2455 was noticeably less efficient at chiseling tiles - much more so than the modest reduction compared to the Bosch in impact energy delivered (2.0 vs. 2.6 ft-lbs). I suspect there's a minimum amount of energy that needs to be delivered here before any real work gets done and/or, a the tool needs to weigh a minimum amount so that it bites into the tile rather than it bouncing off of them. The surprise winner here was the el cheapo Harbor Freight 41983, and not because it delivered a Goldilocks "just right" amount of energy - a little more than the HR2455, a little less than the 11236VS - but because the chuck on the HF lets the bit rotate freely while in hammer-only mode. Ergonomically speaking, this was by far the easiest tool to use for chiseling tiles off a wall.

At the end of the day (literally) I'm not sure which one I'll go with. I'm not totally happy with any of them and despite it's good showing in popping tiles off drywall, I don't trust the HF tool to survive more than a few hours of use (the hammering action is already going intermittent). I'll also be taking a close look at the DeWalt D25313K (2.5ft-lbs; $260) and D25404K (3.3ft-lbs; $330), Hitachi DH30PC (3.9ft-lbs, $350) and Makita HR3000C (3.9ft-lbs; $400) assuming I can find them locally as I definitely feel this is one tool where trying before buying is of the utmost importance.

Let the flames begin... :furious:


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Compare a Hilti TE-16-C too.


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## jiffy (Oct 21, 2007)

If you're testing 7/8" holes in 4" concrete you should be using a bigger rotary hammer. Your pushing those 1" hammers pretty hard. Using close to the maximum bit size in a tool is not really ideal. But you probably already knew that.


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## tesseract (Dec 21, 2006)

jiffy - I know that you shouldn't run a tool at its maximum capacity all the time - that's a recipe for early tool death - but for comparison purposes I thought it would magnify any differences in speed between them. Besides, I wanted the holes to take more than a few seconds to drill because I had to hold the tool with one hand and operate the stop watch with the other (whaddya think OSHA would say if they saw that at a jobsite... :whistling).

Otherwise, yeah, I agree that none of these tools seem to have enough power to drive 7/8" bits through concrete slabs on a regular basis. I'd say they have more than enough power for Tap-Cons (5/32" and 3/16") and probably up to 1/2" wedge anchors. The 12236VS should be fine for 5/8" sill anchors but I don't think a D-handle style drill would hold up doing such on a daily basis. 

These are all just my informal impressions, mind you, not the Absolute Truth.

KillerToiletSpi - if the Hilti reps will let me, I'll see how fast the TE 7C and TE 16C can bore holes with my 7/8" SDS bit. Course, then I'll have to suffer through the used car lot-style sales pitch from them about how great Hilti is, blah, blah, blah... That may be more suffering that I can tolerate even in the name of science.


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## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

I have a milwaukee 18v hammer drill (not the little driver drill type) that I use for anchors (up to 5/8") daily and I use the 7/8" bit fairly often and other than hitting rebar it works just fine.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

tesseract said:


> KillerToiletSpi - if the Hilti reps will let me, I'll see how fast the TE 7C and TE 16C can bore holes with my 7/8" SDS bit. Course, then I'll have to suffer through the used car lot-style sales pitch from them about how great Hilti is, blah, blah, blah... That may be more suffering that I can tolerate even in the name of science.


Rent them.

Most of the rental places here only use Hilti tools for their rentals, because it is so hard to kill them.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Watch E-Bay... I bought a lightly used TE-76 for $350 last year. Put a lot of hours on it so far:thumbup:

I've used Hiltis and Bosch... The SDS Max units are pretty comparable...


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## Kingfisher (Mar 18, 2007)

Tesser, I got a heavy 1 9/16" dewalt hammer that is great but over $500. where are you in Tampa, I'm in south tampa if you want to try it out? Also I don't have a coring bit but used a 4" Rem bit for HD to drill a hole in a slab porch to put a putting green cup in for my brothernlaw's birthday. The bit cost around $40 and is non hammer abrasive type. It took about 15 min to dill 4" pf solid contcrete. The bit is still in great shape and usable. If you look at he dewalt you don't need the one that has the hammer on/off selector unless you plan on using drill bits as chisels:blink: just a waste of money IMO. Here is the closest I could find to mine and not bad at $401

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008WFSW/ref=nosim/15053889-20


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## tesseract (Dec 21, 2006)

randomkiller - My cordless hammer drill before I bought the Makita LXT set was a Milwaukee and I the only thing that impressed me with it was the chuck... I sold it on eBay after owning it for less than a year. Course, I just sent the LXT hammer drill back to Makita to have the transmission replaced for a *second* time, so I can't say much good about it, either. 

TimelessQuality - I've rented the 76C before to break up the improperly poured slab on my front stoop and a big blob of concrete in between my ribbon driveway. I agree that it's a phenomenal tool, but it's a bit much for drilling/chiseling hollow block. Also, you gotta realize that only paying $350 for a lightly used Hilti that retails for $1300 is pretty much a once in a blue moon kind of deal. The best price I've seen is $550 or so and that ain't for a "lightly used" tool... 

Kingfisher - I'm in the Seminole Heights area but I'm working on two condos in S. Tampa right now and I'd never pass up a chance to try out a tool before buying. Send me a PM or e-mail when it would be most convenient for you - I'll bring the concrete, you bring the tool and bits. Thanks!


Jim & Slim's is having the Bosch promotion today so I'm going back there to return the Makita 2455X and try out the next tool up from the Bosch 11236VS. The next tool up is only available with an SDS Max or Spline chuck, though, and I'd really like to stick with SDS Plus.


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## Kingfisher (Mar 18, 2007)

Couldn't get the pm to work call me, Chris 813 436 6818. Also check the prices on the bits, I think the spline drive are usally $15-20 cheaper when you get to the bigger bit. I have been wondering about the HF too :laughing: its always in their flyers but you know its junk. I have 2 of their 4" grinders at $15ea it was worth the gamble burnt 1 up using a 7" blade on it but it did cut 3' concrete first and do the job:w00t:


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## jiffy (Oct 21, 2007)

I talked to jim and slims repair guy and he said that the only reason they have transmission problems with the LXT Hammer Drill is not using the speeds in the transmission. It has 3 speeds but you have to change it and not stick with just speed 3. I did not know that would be such an issue, but it makes sense.

I would try the 1 9/16 Makita HR4010C. It is large and has the anti vibration and it eats concrete better than my Hilti. A guy had one at a job and I tried it out. It was a beast.


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## tesseract (Dec 21, 2006)

Thanks for all of the responses, guys. Another job distracted me from my research but I did finally buy a rotary hammer.

I tried out the Bosch 11236VS and felt its performance was adequate - which is to say better, but not overwhelmingly better, than the Makita HR2455X - but the real zinger to me was how hot it got after using it for just a couple of minutes.

I also got to try the Hilti TE 16 when the reps were doing a demonstration at a **** depot one day. It definitely had the best "feel" of any of the rotary hammers, and you can just tell it'll take a real licking, but once again, the price was too steep for the limited amount of use I'd give it.

Since nothing available locally was really wowing me, I did a quick zip through eBay and found a listing that was particularly intriguing. A Hitachi DH30PC (pre-basketball shoe look) for $135 + $25 s/h. As I had learned from my research, the DH30PC delivers the highest impact energy of any SDS-Plus rotary hammer, so that alone makes it attractive. On the other hand, I'm not a huge Hitachi fan, though I admit that a lot my caution is because of the garish color scheme. At any rate, I pulled the trigger on the tool and a couple days later I got to play around with it. The upshot so far: it drills holes faster than the other three rotohammers, but not by as much as the increase in impact energy would suggest, it feels almost as smooth as the Hilti's (much less jumping around in the hand than the Bosch), and is fantastic at chipping hollow block without cracking them in half (another issue with the Bosch). As for how I was able to get a brand new tool that lists for $350 for only $160, my guess is that it's because it is the pre-garish color scheme (current model is DH30PC2) and the warranty card is addressed to Hitachi _Canada_...

Jiffy - I got the same explanation about the Makita LXT drill from the same guys, but I don't accept it. First off, I didn't abuse the drill by driving big bits in 3rd gear (quite a few 5/32" holes for tapcons - hardly what I would call abuse); secondly, because a $300 drill damn well better be able to take such abuse *anyway*. Besides, the Makita reps were there that day and all but admitted that there was a flaw in the original BHP451 transmission that had just been corrected: the planet gears in one of the planetary gear reductions were made of plastic! Sheesh...


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Hitachi makes a good tool, the main problem I have is getting them fixed, there are no real dealers around me other than Lowes, and they have to ship stuff out for repair, and getting it back can take weeks.


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