# *grumble* Why do people think this is ok to ask??



## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

We just quoted a basement job for a guy. 

He said we are in his price range but then adds, "What is the very best price you can offer? "

:blink: 

What? Is this a TAG SALE?! Do I need to launch into my spiel about getting what you pay for?

I just told the guy that this IS the best we can offer without compromising the quality of the materials we use and that doing so simply isn't our policy. That if he is looking for the "cheapest" price, perhaps we aren't the builder for him. :no: 

I would love to be someone who could just say "eh, it's the nature of the business, don't sweat it" but it's PRINCIPLE!!

When your Dr tells you it will be 12k to remove your gallbladder, you don't say, "What is the very best price you can offer? "!!!  

This just gets under my skin so much! The things I refuse to accept in life are things that are just WRONG. 

When we accept things like people not honoring their contracts (both builders and homeowners) or that our time isn't as valuable as anyone else's by compromising our business practices to "get" a job ie. lowering a quoted price, that's when the whole thing goes to pot. 

It is NOT ok for people to hurt children, it is NOT ok for men to beat their wives, it is NOT ok for adults to use violence as a form of conflict resolution. That is playground stuff and grownups aren't supposed to act like kids. Right???

I have to believe that there are some things in the world that are sacred and that is falling further and further away from us and it starts with this kind of crap, with compromising what WE believe in order to gain something. No amount of money is worth my self-respect. It's not an issue of pride, it's an issue of what's right and what's wrong. 

Or am I wrong? Which I could be. It happens quite frequently.


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

You simply tell him or her " This is my best price ", but because you're such a horses azz I'll take off another 5%. But the whole job gets paid in*CASH*! Now give me the deposit!:thumbsup:


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## eastend (Jan 24, 2006)

of course, it's common to price a job and include a "fudge factor" which would mean the price quoted is not really the "best price". And it seems many HOs need to play the game, or do the dance , of price negotiation based on their conception that a contractor never quotes their real price first.( very possibly a misconception)

Btw, do you ever seek to get a car salesman "to do better?" Or seek a better price on anything that doesn't have a "retail price" Have you ever bought a house??

I don't think it's worth getting bent out of shape about.

I usually tell them - I'm the owner - I can do it for free, if I choose to- but why would I want to??- That always shuts them up!


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

Hmmm good point. 

I guess I don't understand the car and home bargaining either. Price is price, why quote higher than you really need? Why would the exact same car be less money for one person than the other? Because they have better bargaining skills? How is that fair?

I dunno. I'd be leary of a contractor who said "our price is x amount" but when challenged said, "ok, our price is now y amount'. Well what?? Were you trying to rip me off with the first quote?!?!

I like the cash discount idea. Is that even legal? I suppose it is, we have suppliers who do the same thing to us.

Interesting. Thanks for the input. 



eastend said:


> of course, it's common to price a job and include a "fudge factor" which would mean the price quoted is not really the "best price". And it seems many HOs need to play the game, or do the dance , of price negotiation based on their conception that a contractor never quotes their real price first.( very possibly a misconception)
> 
> Btw, do you ever seek to get a car salesman "to do better?" Or seek a better price on anything that doesn't have a "retail price" Have you ever bought a house??
> 
> ...


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## hauoli63 (Aug 15, 2005)

Kristina said:


> I like the cash discount idea. Is that even legal? I suppose it is, we have suppliers who do the same thing to us.


Legal if you still report the cash as income! :thumbsup:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

When sales people I have managed would come to me in frustration with your scenario the answer was always the same - #1 put you ego away, separate yourself from the sale - don't get so personally involved - it's only business. #2 when you are asking for the sale and your customers asks anything along the lines of *"What is the very best price you can offer? "* don't get upset, instead jump for joy! That's a prime buying single. Lookers don't ask those questions, buyers do. Simply answer the question with a question along the lines of "What number to you have in mind?" - then shut up. Don't say a word and let him talk himself out. The very next question and the only thing you need to say after he tells you his price, no matter what it is or how ridiculous it is is simply "At a price close to that are you ready to sign the contract right now?"

This is simple sales 101. You now have a price and most importantly a commitment. You might not be at a price you can do the job at, but most importantly you have a customer ready to commit, now it's simply a matter or closing the deal. You might be suprised sometimes that the price he gives you is hardly a discount at all and you are more than willing to do the job at his "best price" - if not then it's simply time to go back a few steps and start again explaining why your company is worth doing business at the price you gave. Another percentage of customers will simply listen and sign your contract - telling you something along the lines of "I just wanted to make sure I was gettting a good deal" - a few more are going to be out of their minds with what they are expecting and a few more are going to be bumpable maybe much closer to what you origianlly told them it would take to accomplish their project - then it is just time to cut out some of the scope of work or change it a bit to fit their budget then say something along the lines of - "Okay, we are at your price - sign here" and shut up again.

You can't change your customers your advertising is putting you in front of, you can only change your advertising to bring in different customers or you can change how you are dealing with your customers. The most important thing is to separate your ego from the selling process - it's only business, this isn't a negotiation over your first born child. If every customer presentation brings out feelings that it is, then you need to deal with those issues even before these.


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> You can't change your customers your advertising is putting you in front of, you can only change your advertising to bring in different customers



I'm intriqued... please elaborate.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

If you lived in an area where there were only slabs you would not have these problems:whistling 

I would think if you have plenty of work hold tight but if you need the job bend a little.
I have some core customers that always use this line on me. 
I know they are going to do it and also know they are not putting the job out to bid. 
I raise the price and let the barganing begin. They always end up paying more than what they would have if they did not play this game??
However they feel proud as a peacock cause they beat me down. 
Of course I have to do the appropriate lip tightening and head shaking 

But more importantly....I went in to have some spots removed from my face. The doctor sent me to a surgeon because they were in a fold on the nose?
I walked in and told them my insurance is only good if I am dying so would like to know what it was going to cost up front.
We started talking hospital but when I said 'I'll live with them" he offered the office....Hmmmm. Ended up talking thousands at first and got it down to $200 with the office visit.

I must admit I intentionally did this because I have always made the same comment as Kristina about doctors. 
I guess they have it too!! Now the I.R.S.


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## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

I'm still new at this game too but I would agree, never take it personal. Why lose the sale by telling him you may not be the builder for him? He was probably not expecting you to actually lower your price anyway, maybe he was checking your integrity. I've always been told if price negotiations come up and the customer is really demanding a lower price tell them something like "no problem, instead of using plywood on the exterior walls we will use OSB, it's a little cheaper and that'll save you some money" or in my case " sure no problem, instead of using the more expensive Cutler Hammer Classic breaker panel, we'll substitute that with a Cutler Hammer BR style, they're just a step below the Classic and we can knock x number of dollars off the bill" of course then go on to explain the pros and cons of each option. So when it comes down to it, I'll say " we can work with you in regard to the quality of material, we of course, can not negotiate the quality of our workmanship, after all our reputation is on the line and I'm sure you can understand our policy on that". OR something to that effect. Come up with your own way of saying it, but never take offense. It makes you appear unprofessional imo.


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

ATS said:


> , I'll say " we can work with you in regard to the quality of material, we of course, can not negotiate the quality of our workmanship, after all our reputation is on the line and I'm sure you can understand our policy on that".


:thumbsup: :clap: 'nuff said right there


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## Patty (Jan 21, 2006)

I'm a graduate of the Mike Finley School of Salesmanship!:thumbsup: I couldn't have written a better response. He's 'right on'.

When I quote a job, I NEVER waiver on my price. My proposals take a lot of time and I try to offer the BEST price, for what they want to do,
right up front. I have always felt that your CREDIBILITY goes down the toilet if you hem and haw and end up dropping your price. What I WILL do, however, is offer a less costly product if price is REALLY the issue. Usually, offering them a choice is the best route to travel, and 90% of the time, they will choose the first proposal, anyway, cuz that's really the product they wanted in the first place. 

Haggling over price is just the 'standard' in our country. People have been programmed to think that they have to negotiate or they are being 'taken' and will pay more than they should. I deal with this on a daily basis. It doesn't even phaze me anymore. 

But, price is SELDOM the issue.:no: Think about it, Kristina. If a homeowner has X dollars budgeted to have a job done, do you really think 5% over or under will be a deal breaker? 

Just chaulk it up to 'culture'!


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

ATS said:


> ...So when it comes down to it, I'll say " we can work with you in regard to the quality of material, we of course, can not negotiate the quality of our workmanship, after all our reputation is on the line...[blah, blah, blah].


IMO, I don't want to hear about someone's committment to quality, standard of workmanship, strict ahdherence to the 'code of the craftsman' etc. In fact, I'm likely to wonder why someone would feel compelled to tell me that. It tells me they're feeling defensive about their reputation and starts me thinking about why they'd feel that way. And besides, if I had questions about the abilities of a potential contractor the last thing in the world I'd rely on to resolve the questions is their testimony.

I also don't ever want to hear someone offer to use material of a 'lesser quality' to reduce the price. There's a big difference between using a difffernt material, that costs less, and one that is of 'lesser quality'.


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## widco (Jan 16, 2004)

---


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

Mike Finley should write a book! I like Patty's answer too. 

Here's something to think about, what if he didn't make that comment and you never heard back from him at all. So you calll, and find out he hired someone, because they were just a bit cheaper. Wouldn't you have rather he tell you what he was thinking beforehand to give you the opportunity to come down on the price- if you wanted to?


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## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

PipeGuy said:


> IMO, I don't want to hear about someone's committment to quality, standard of workmanship, strict ahdherence to the 'code of the craftsman' etc. In fact, I'm likely to wonder why someone would feel compelled to tell me that. It tells me they're feeling defensive about their reputation and starts me thinking about why they'd feel that way. And besides, if I had questions about the abilities of a potential contractor the last thing in the world I'd rely on to resolve the questions is their testimony.
> 
> I also don't ever want to hear someone offer to use material of a 'lesser quality' to reduce the price. There's a big difference between using a difffernt material, that costs less, and one that is of 'lesser quality'.


This would be ONLY stated if price negotiations came up, not in a typical estimate. The point being integrity, the best price was quoted initially, if it's too high for their budget, here are the options to lower the price a little by offering them material choices. Consumers like choices, I always offer a few with any estimate I give and typically the customer will go with the better product after they are educated on the pros and cons of each. As I said Pipeguy, I'm new at this myself and still learning, but this is one thing that has served me well recently and thought I'd pass it on. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not. But I will say I doubt very much that your attitude is representative of the average consumer, no offense. But we as contractors think a little different on subjects like this than someone who may get something done on their house once in 10 years or so. Every customer is different and you have to be able to read people, and find out what's important to them. Albeit, I deal with homeowners, not general contractors, so what works for me may not work for everyone.


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

*Originally Posted by ATS
, I'll say " we can work with you in regard to the quality of material, we of course, can not negotiate the quality of our workmanship, after all our reputation is on the line and I'm sure you can understand our policy on that". *

Errrr isn't that what I said? :sad:


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

Kristina said:


> Errrr isn't that what I said? :sad:



Not the way we all read it... lol

You said "I just told the guy that this IS the best we can offer without compromising the quality of the materials we use and that doing so simply isn't our policy. That if he is looking for the "cheapest" price, perhaps we aren't the builder for him. "

:whistling:cheesygri


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

*Lookers don't ask those questions, buyers do.* 

Agreed.


*This is simple sales 101. *

Probably, but not all of us took the course so it isn't exactly something we are born knowing.

* it's only business, this isn't a negotiation over your first born child.* \

Good point. 

*If you lived in an area where there were only slabs you would not have these problems *











*Why lose the sale by telling him you may not be the builder for him? He was probably not expecting you to actually lower your price anyway, maybe he was checking your integrity. I've always been told if price negotiations come up and the customer is really demanding a lower price tell them something like "no problem, instead of using plywood on the exterior walls we will use OSB, it's a little cheaper and that'll save you some money" or in my case " sure no problem, instead of using the more expensive Cutler Hammer Classic breaker panel, we'll substitute that with a Cutler Hammer BR style, they're just a step below the Classic and we can knock x number of dollars off the bill" of course then go on to explain the pros and cons of each option. So when it comes down to it, I'll say " we can work with you in regard to the quality of material, we of course, can not negotiate the quality of our workmanship, after all our reputation is on the line and I'm sure you can understand our policy on that". OR something to that effect. Come up with your own way of saying it, but never take offense. It makes you appear unprofessional imo. *

That's essentially what I was saying and what he had already told the guy. I wouldn't just say "oh we aren't the builder for you". If you are looking for cheap and don't care about the quality, we aren't the builder for you because we don't put our name on that. It's fact. Not because you won't chose us, but because we won't lower ourselves to that standard.


*When I quote a job, I NEVER waiver on my price. My proposals take a lot of time and I try to offer the BEST price, for what they want to do,
right up front. I have always felt that your CREDIBILITY goes down the toilet if you hem and haw and end up dropping your price. What I WILL do, however, is offer a less costly product if price is REALLY the issue. Usually, offering them a choice is the best route to travel, and 90% of the time, they will choose the first proposal, anyway, cuz that's really the product they wanted in the first place. *

That's exactly my position on it.

*Haggling over price is just the 'standard' in our country. People have been programmed to think that they have to negotiate or they are being 'taken' and will pay more than they should. I deal with this on a daily basis. It doesn't even phaze me anymore. *

I just haven't reached that point yet I guess. Doesn't make me an idiot, it just means I'm not jaded. :thumbsup: 

*But, price is SELDOM the issue. Think about it, Kristina. If a homeowner has X dollars budgeted to have a job done, do you really think 5% over or under will be a deal breaker? *

Nope. I agree. Which is why I won't lower my price. 5% isn't going to make them NOT go with me either, if they are chosing us for the right reasons.



*IMO, I don't want to hear about someone's committment to quality, standard of workmanship, strict ahdherence to the 'code of the craftsman' etc. In fact, I'm likely to wonder why someone would feel compelled to tell me that. It tells me they're feeling defensive about their reputation and starts me thinking about why they'd feel that way.* 

Umm probably because they are consistently placed in a position of needing to defend their costs to people. By nature of the industry apparently. 

*And besides, if I had questions about the abilities of a potential contractor the last thing in the world I'd rely on to resolve the questions is their testimony.*

Why not? We are getting a porch job based on his ability to testify to the customer. They even said, "you are more expensive than the other guy we had quote, but you make us feel better about you doing the work than he did". If you know what the heck you're talking about, I think that speaks volumes about your ability as a contractor, no?
*
I also don't ever want to hear someone offer to use material of a 'lesser quality' to reduce the price. There's a big difference between using a difffernt material, that costs less, and one that is of 'lesser quality'.*

I don't get that at all. Then why chose a "more expensive" material if it's not a better material overall? If we could get the same quality for less, what dumbass contractor wouldn't opt for that? 

*....I bet you didn’t expect that to be such a loaded question, but I just felt the need to explore and explain my position. I can list a few of the things that were left out of the estimate and will be included at “no charge”: Pick up and deliver materials, shipping, clean up, bondo, sandpaper, primer/sealer, router bits, overhead & profit. These items would amount to 15-20% of the total so we can consider that the discount. I know there is the potential for a lot of work restoring portions of your hotel and would like the opportunity to be a part of it, but lower prices often indicate less time able to be spent on items, lower quality materials & workmanship, and ultimately work that would have to be re-done which is not my style. *

Again, basically what I was saying, but I didn't want to go into as much detail.  

*Here's something to think about, what if he didn't make that comment and you never heard back from him at all. So you calll, and find out he hired someone, because they were just a bit cheaper. Wouldn't you have rather he tell you what he was thinking beforehand to give you the opportunity to come down on the price- if you wanted to?*

Of course, I guess it's the assumption on his part that we WOULDN'T give him the best deal in the first place that bugs me. If you think your contractor would charge you more than necessary to do the work, why go with him at all?

*This would be ONLY stated if price negotiations came up, not in a typical estimate. The point being integrity, the best price was quoted initially, if it's too high for their budget, here are the options to lower the price a little by offering them material choices. Consumers like choices, I always offer a few with any estimate I give and typically the customer will go with the better product after they are educated on the pros and cons of each.* 

Again, exactly the point I was trying to make with the customer.

I feel like sometimes I am saying, "yes, no, yes, yes, no, yes" all to the same thing. :blink: Thanks for your feedback. I *think* we are all roughly on the same page, though everyone said the same thing 100 different ways. :thumbsup:


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

* I've always been told if price negotiations come up and the customer is really demanding a lower price tell them something like "no problem, instead of using plywood on the exterior walls we will use OSB, it's a little cheaper and that'll save you some money" or in my case " sure no problem, instead of using the more expensive Cutler Hammer Classic breaker panel, we'll substitute that with a Cutler Hammer BR style, they're just a step below the Classic and we can knock x number of dollars off the bill" of course then go on to explain the pros and cons of each option. So when it comes down to it, I'll say " we can work with you in regard to the quality of material, we of course, can not negotiate the quality of our workmanship, after all our reputation is on the line and I'm sure you can understand our policy on that".*


*You said "I just told the guy that this IS the best we can offer without compromising the quality of the materials we use and that doing so simply isn't our policy. That if he is looking for the "cheapest" price, perhaps we aren't the builder for him. "*

I guess I'm stupid. I don't see where I didn't say the same thing, just in less verbiage. :sad: :blink:


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

Your not stupid by any means. With or without the extra verbage, when you stated that price could only be lowered by altering materials but then followed that by it simply wasn't your policy... I, and maybe others, assumed your policy was not to even discuss lowering it and if they wanted it lower, go find another builder. Kinda how I read it atleast.. I must be the stupid one.

"And besides, if I had questions about the abilities of a potential contractor the last thing in the world I'd rely on to resolve the questions is their testimony."

Sorry but if I had one of those fancy Bovine Matter meters, I'd sure post it after that comment.


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## Patty (Jan 21, 2006)

Hey Kristina,

Having been selling for the last 22 years, the best thing I can tell you is that with age came wisdom (at least, for me, it did. ) My Father died in 1984, and he left behind a very lucrative manufacturing company. I was 23 years old, at the time. I blew off law school and jumped head first into a business I knew very little about. I was on a proving ground; young, female, BLONDE:laughing: , and thrown to the lions! I was involved in some VERY large business deals on a global level. But, no matter how big or how small the deal, I always wanted to clinch that deal because I figured that to get this far into it and to lose it was a TOTAL waste of my time. So the question, I always asked, quite humbly, was, "Gentlemen, what is it that YOU want? (Let them answer.) Then, I would address their issues, overcome any valid objections and "re-work" my sales pitch, usually with very little change needed, and I would close by saying, "If I can meet your requests, are you ready to come aboard and sign TODAY?" Kristina, 9 out of 10, I'd walk out with a signed contract and, as my Father would say, laugh all the way to the bank!:thumbsup: 

Now, what does this mean to you?

GET THE SALE!!! WORK WITH THE CUSTOMER!!! 

All the customer wants is a quality job done by a builder he/she can trust, and at the same time, for a decent price. DONE!

NOW GO GET THE SALE!!! (Oh,:whistling did I mention that, already?)

Oh, I never burn a bridge....:whistling unless the guy is trying to undermine my dignity or integrity. Then, I blow him off! And, for the record, I come with references on that one!:laughing:


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

Were you honestly asking a question or just wanting to complain? It sound like you're getting very deffensive to the replies you've been given.


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

*snort*









I could've said it the way you heard it, but I wouldn't necessarily SAY that to the customer. I'd word it much more eloquently for them. :w00t: 



realpurty2 said:


> Your not stupid by any means. With or without the extra verbage, when you stated that price could only be lowered by altering materials but then followed that by it simply wasn't your policy... I, and maybe others, assumed your policy was not to even discuss lowering it and if they wanted it lower, go find another builder. Kinda how I read it atleast.. I must be the stupid one.
> 
> "And besides, if I had questions about the abilities of a potential contractor the last thing in the world I'd rely on to resolve the questions is their testimony."
> 
> Sorry but if I had one of those fancy Bovine Matter meters, I'd sure post it after that comment.


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

*All the customer wants is a quality job done by a builder he/she can trust, and at the same time, for a decent price. DONE!

NOW GO GET THE SALE!!! (Oh, did I mention that, already?)

Oh, I never burn a bridge.... unless the guy is trying to undermine my dignity or integrity. Then, I blow him off! And, for the record, I come with references on that one! *

I absolutely believe this. I did not and would not be the ***** that I am to someone like him. He is geniunely interested and was just asking what is apparently a standard question. We answered him *kindly* and explained how we work. That's all.

Did anybody notice the time stamp on this post?? It wasn't even 4a and I hadn't had enough coffee or sleep to think rationally. :no: I was just reacting. Dashed out a pissy email, then thought better of it and decided to ask you guys what you thought. My husband later "edited" my email to take out the more bitchy parts and sent it on.

I gave you the short version of what I wanted to say, which could come across much more "tersely" than the way you guys put it. Like I said, I agree with you guys, mostly, I think.  


*Were you honestly asking a question or just wanting to complain? It sound like you're getting very deffensive to the replies you've been given. * 

Yes and yes but mostly, I just wanted to complain. The venting prevented me from doing something totally stupid and the feedback assisted me in doing something LESS stupid. Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## eastend (Jan 24, 2006)

this thread is begging the question- then what is a "price"? How does one arrive at a figure to quote a client? Sure you figure in your fixed expenses, and your variables,your cost of doing business, your labor, your materials etc, etc, but you also figure in how much "profit" you want your company to make on the job. You can do that by a pre-determined formula, or you can take a guess. 

But in either case, isn't that "profit" a number that you hope to make? And couldn't that change depending on circumstances?

If demand for your work goes way up, isn't it a normal business practice to raise your price, even though it doesn't cost you more, so that you can take advantage of the demand and reap greater rewards?

And if business is slow, don't we have an option of lowering our profit expectation to keep busy?

My point is that a "best price" isn't always; and that it really is a function of what you percieve your needs to be; and that really is something that can change in response to any unique situation.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

eastend said:


> I usually tell them - I'm the owner - I can do it for free, if I choose to- but why would I want to??- That always shuts them up!


you just made my night :notworthy , i cant wait to throw that on the next person who ask me to lower my price, it has just enough humor in it, and yet remain's classy, as well as slightly insulting, i love it:clap:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Kristina said:


> Of course, I guess it's the assumption on his part that we WOULDN'T give him the best deal in the first place that bugs me. If you think your contractor would charge you more than necessary to do the work, why go with him at all?


Unfortunately that comment tells me that no matter how much you have said you get it, it all comes back that you still aren't getting it.

There are a lot of insights into how your perceptions are messing with your ability to do business in that statement, I don't even know where to start - maybe with the concept that you believe estimating has something to do with giving somebody your best price? that there is even any such thing as a concept of your best price? that a customer has crossed some invisible line if he dares question anything you are saying? or that you still are saying "that bugs me", says you haven't heard anything about separating business from your ego... you keep saying you get it or that is what you said in the first place, but unfortunately it doesn't sound like you are getting any of it yet.

You can't work on the answers to the questions if you aren't even aware of what the questions are. I'll still say it: You can't change the way the customers you are getting in front of think and act, and I'll add :it's about as productive as farting in a whirl wind.


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

Whatever, Mike. Whether I understand the concept of separating business from ego has nothing to do with whether or not it still bugs me.

Because "it's the way it works" doesn't mean I can't think that "the way it works" sucks monkey balls? Does it really matter what I *think* or does it matter what I *do*?

Seriously, your condescending tone is really "bugging me", while that doesn't mean I don't get the value of what you're saying, it CAN still bug me and it DOES mean that I "get it".

Of course I can't change how they act, I can change how we respond to them. I can change what I *say* to them, but I can't change what I *think* about them. :thumbsup: 




Mike Finley said:


> Unfortunately that comment tells me that no matter how much you have said you get it, it all comes back that you still aren't getting it.
> 
> There are a lot of insights into how your perceptions are messing with your ability to do business in that statement, I don't even know where to start - maybe with the concept that you believe estimating has something to do with giving somebody your best price? that there is even any such thing as a concept of your best price? that a customer has crossed some invisible line if he dares question anything you are saying? or that you still are saying "that bugs me", says you haven't heard anything about separating business from your ego... you keep saying you get it or that is what you said in the first place, but unfortunately it doesn't sound like you are getting any of it yet.
> 
> You can't work on the answers to the questions if you aren't even aware of what the questions are. I'll still say it: You can't change the way the customers you are getting in front of think and act, and I'll add :it's about as productive as farting in a whirl wind.


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## kgphoto (May 9, 2006)

Kristina,

I think you are getting it. At least most of it. One thing you may have missed, is the concepts of; We can only respond to what you put here and It is not what you say that matters, but how you say it.

You asked the question as to what is the difference between a lessor quality item at a price lower than the first choice and a lower priced item? Maybe you weren't aware this was what you were doing, but you did.

An item that can perform the same function for a lower price is a less expensive item.

An inferior product does an inferior job, for a price worth its value. It just also happens to cost less than the best choice item, but may not be really less expensive, especially if you include all the potential downsides and rework.

Many responded to your words and part of your response was the classic: "I know you understand what you think I said, it is just that I am not sure you realize what I said is not what I meant."

So please don't think badly of us for forming conclusions based on the misinformation you supply.

Finally, I think you now have an understanding as to the ambiguity of "best price". We all put a contingency factor in our bids. Some are larger than others. If you don't ask, you don't get. So it is a good idea to ask. Yes this doens't happen as much in Doctors offices, but surprise you would get better prices and or service if you did. 

There is a mystical connotation surrounding doctors that contractors don't have. I suspect it is because almost anyone would feel comfortable smacking a few nails with a hammer, but most would be uncomfortable sticking their hand in the open abdomen of a friend.

I am glad to hear that you got the job and hope you have a good time with that relationship. Let us know how it goes, if you don't mind?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Kristina said:


> Of course I can't change how they act, I can change how we respond to them. I can change what I *say* to them, but I can't change what I *think* about them. :thumbsup:


That's the first real thing you have said in the 10,000 words or so you have danced all over the place with this simple issue.



Kristina said:


> Seriously, your condescending tone is really "bugging me", while that doesn't mean I don't get the value of what you're saying, it CAN still bug me and it DOES mean that I "get it".


Thinking I'm being condescending to you once again points to the root of the problem. The problem isn't your customers - instead it might be your attitude. 

The customers you have in front of you are the ones you have to deal with, for the 10th time - you can't change them.

Either change your marketing methods and get some customers who better mesh with your personality; learn to deal with and make lots of money with the ones you hate so much; get out of the business; or I guess there is always the 4th choice which is to do nothing, keep bitching about everybody and keep wondering why the bills keep piling up.



Kristina said:


> Because "it's the way it works" doesn't mean I can't think that "the way it works" sucks monkey balls? Does it really matter what I *think* or does it matter what I *do*?


They why bother posting it here? Just to get somebody to pat your back and agree with you to tell you everybody sucks in the world? Don't you have real world friends to do that for you?

If you seem to think every customer you get in front of is a dirt-bag, back-stabbing loser, the problem is pretty clear the customers aren't the problem.




> Many responded to your words and part of your response was the classic: "I know you understand what you think I said, it is just that I am not sure you realize what I said is not what I meant."
> 
> So please don't think badly of us for forming conclusions based on the misinformation you supply.


KG is right on the money with those statements.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

As for Doctors - ask the next doctor you meet if he has ever had a patient call up and ask to negotiate the bill? He's going to tell you it happens every single day. It's quite a common practice in the medical field. My Brother-in-law has 3 kids and hasn't paid a doctors bill in full in 20 years.


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

*
I think you are getting it. At least most of it. One thing you may have missed, is the concepts of; We can only respond to what you put here and It is not what you say that matters, but how you say it.*

Oh I know. I'm not as eloquent *here* as I am with customers/potential customers. :thumbsup: I've got limited resources and patience and I don't use much of either here.  

*You asked the question as to what is the difference between a lessor quality item at a price lower than the first choice and a lower priced item? Maybe you weren't aware this was what you were doing, but you did.*

Oh no, I'm WELL aware of the difference.  

*An item that can perform the same function for a lower price is a less expensive item.

An inferior product does an inferior job, for a price worth its value. It just also happens to cost less than the best choice item, but may not be really less expensive, especially if you include all the potential downsides and rework.*

I did say "lessor" but I didn't specify "lower quality" or "lower price". There aren't many products that you compare apples to apples, it's usually apples to oranges on some level. Like you said, at some point, they WILL pay the same price down the road. A product that provides the same service but at less cost HAS to have a down side. Usually in how long that product will provide the exact same service is the difference in cost. 

*Many responded to your words and part of your response was the classic: "I know you understand what you think I said, it is just that I am not sure you realize what I said is not what I meant."

So please don't think badly of us for forming conclusions based on the misinformation you supply.*

I don't think badly. I was just clarifying because obviously I wasn't properly communicating what I meant. I totally believe this to be true because like I said, I don't waste what limited resources I have on detailed explanations on this board. I was hoping that since most of you are in the same realm of business, you would understand the "gist" of what I was saying. Apparently, it's much easier to assume I am an idiot, than that I am paraphrasing thoughts. I'm guilty of presuming people understand my train of thought. It's not misinformation, it's information that is generalized and I simply have to be more specific.

*Finally, I think you now have an understanding as to the ambiguity of "best price". We all put a contingency factor in our bids. Some are larger than others. If you don't ask, you don't get. So it is a good idea to ask. Yes this doens't happen as much in Doctors offices, but surprise you would get better prices and or service if you did. * 

I agree, there is apparently that ambiguity, but we don't ALL have to play the same game do we? I would just as soon not artificially inflate prices with the expectation that I will bargain DOWN to the price I originally wanted in the first place. I'm holding a tag sale today. I priced items for what I wanted and won't budge. People don't like it when they don't have the thrill of the chase I guess. I get this is some people's idea of a good time. I don't have the time or patience to go back and forth haggling over price. 

So maybe I shouldn't be "bugged" that he asked. He was making an assumption that we work the way most contractor's work. It's not his fault. We just explained that it is not how we work and he understood. 

Because some of you chose to work that way does not mean we *have* to work that way. What is standard practice might not be something we are comfortable with. Some people mark up, some people don't. It's a "YMMV" kind of thing. Your Mileage May Vary. 

I retract any implication that I made that anyone who does chose to "bargain" is making it difficult for those who don't to do business.

I pretty much assume that everyone here is an inherently good , semi-inteligent person whether I agree with what they say or not. If something SOUNDS nasty, I assume it's not MEANT that way. It's a message board and I give people a lot of leeway. I guessed that the same would be thought about me.

It's really tiring to have to pick apart and explain every word of every statement I make because it hasn't been written "just so" and everyone breaks it down into the most miniscule part and bases my whole position on it. I apologize all the time for not being articulate or specific enough when I am obviously misunderstood. 

If something I say SOUNDS stupid, please assume it's not MEANT to be. I will willingly admit when I don't know what I'm talking about at all, I don't need people to tell that to me.

To assume my business is going to fail, I will lose customers, money, my shirt because of a few sentences on a message board is pretty freakin' ballsy and I resent the implication. 

I hate the standard cop out of "oh well, we can only base it on what you SAY". What I *type* and what I *say* are two completely different birds and I'd appreciate the courtesy of presumption of intelligence until I clearly prove otherwise as I provide for all of you guys.

Thankyouverymuch. Have a great day! I genuinely appreciate the feedback. :thumbup:


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

*Thinking I'm being condescending to you once again points to the root of the problem. The problem isn't your customers - instead it might be your attitude. * 

I assure you, I am not the first or only one to think this, but that's ok. It's just who you are and doesn't subtract from what you have to say that is of value.


*Either change your marketing methods and get some customers who better mesh with your personality; learn to deal with and make lots of money with the ones you hate so much; get out of the business; or I guess there is always the 4th choice which is to do nothing, keep bitching about everybody and keep wondering why the bills keep piling up.*

Did I ever say I wouldn't? Nope, I just said I didn't like how it was done. Or is that not ok? I already admitted I was just bitching and venting or didn't you read that so many posts back?

*They why bother posting it here? Just to get somebody to pat your back and agree with you to tell you everybody sucks in the world? Don't you have real world friends to do that for you?*

Nope, no friends. We are swingers and our friends didn't like our lifestyle choice.


*If you seem to think every customer you get in front of is a dirt-bag, back-stabbing loser, the problem is pretty clear the customers aren't the problem.*

I don't think that at all. I think there is a misconception about contractors and it's frustrating that it doesn't seem to change and I'm disappointed that we have to play "games" in order to make a living. I'm not a game player by nature because I think it's better to be honest and straightforward.

And while we are "dancing around" things, Mike, perhaps rather than dance around the idea that you believe *I* am the problem with our business in 10,000 or so words you've already typed, you'd just come right out and say it. 

It could very well be that we just aren't cut out for this. I don't know if we can sacrifice the things we believe in to make a dime, whether it's a good one or not. Telling me that this is just the way it is, is cool. That helps me. Telling me I'm bound for failure if I don't play the game is just being an *******. You are assuming I am TRYING to play the game and failing rather than that I chose not to play the game. I think there is a difference.

It's lucrative to sell drugs to make money, some people are ok with the fact that it's against the law and do it anyway. Some people aren't ok with it and so they don't sell drugs and make less money doing legal work.


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> As for Doctors - ask the next doctor you meet if he has ever had a patient call up and ask to negotiate the bill? He's going to tell you it happens every single day. It's quite a common practice in the medical field. My Brother-in-law has 3 kids and hasn't paid a doctors bill in full in 20 years.



I never disagreed with that. I'm a nurse, I've worked for lots of Drs who gave group discounts or charged half to people who don't have insurance. It definately happens. Does that make it right? I have yet to determine that. You could go down the whole path of why insurance rates are so inflated, because Drs mark up so much for services to make up for the money they don't get from patients who have no insurance who they charge half for. Either way, the Drs aren't losing anything. Is it ethical for us to overcharge people who readily pay our prices to make up for those who bargain us down to a 1/3 of what we originally quoted?

It would just be so much simpler if it were black and white.


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## Patty (Jan 21, 2006)

Kristina
[B said:


> They why bother posting it here? Just to get somebody to pat your back and agree with you to tell you everybody sucks in the world? Don't you have real world friends to do that for you?[/B]
> 
> Nope, no friends. We are swingers and our friends didn't like our lifestyle choice.



Well, that got my attention!:laughing: :whistling :w00t:


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

Kristina, I just think it's pretty ballsy of _you_ to lash out at people who have taken the time to write a very descriptive and well thought out answers to your question. And none of them were making it sound like you're dumb. I think this defensiveness is coming from something else.


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

(audio/music) Funky cold Kristina (audio/music):thumbsup::w00t:

Bob


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## Patty (Jan 21, 2006)

Glasshousebltr said:


> (audio/music) Funky cold Kristina (audio/music):thumbsup::w00t:
> 
> Bob


Bob's contribution: A little background music for your listening pleasure!:laughing:


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

Melissa said:


> Kristina, I just think it's pretty ballsy of _you_ to lash out at people who have taken the time to write a very descriptive and well thought out answers to your question. And none of them were making it sound like you're dumb. I think this defensiveness is coming from something else.



I agree completely with Mike and Melissa. If your here to learn or discuss trade issues then why expect everyone to read your mind and just know what your thinking? We've all made a bad post or two..sometimes three.. but to continuously seek controversy, it just gets old. 

You stated from day one that you were new and made many post about how badly your business was going..lawsuits, customer complaints, not making enough to survive.. every one here jumped in and tried to give you valid suggestions to get on the right track but there seems to be a attitude and contridiction problem somewhere. 

You don't have to follow any set of rules or conform to anyone's way of doing things but don't ***** and moan when your business isn't operating at it's maximum potential either.


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Chic fight!........some one have some mud!:w00t:

Bob


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## ron schenker (Dec 11, 2005)

I can't take much more of this jello/dragon/wrestling/catfight/all good on my end/ stuff. You girls are killing me here:w00t:


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

Kristina said:


> Hmmm it would seem I'm not the only member with a bend in her halo. :whistling :thumbsup:



halo?? what halo?? oh is that the round thingy laying in the floor covered up by the stillettos and whip? :devil:


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)




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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Did some one say handcuffs?:whistling 

Bob


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

Glasshousebltr said:


> Did some one say handcuffs?:whistling
> 
> Bob



Which kind? Hard, cold steel or leopard fur? :shifty:


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

Kinky! :laughing: 

I feel ya on the sunburn Kristina. Just went for a bike ride at beach and I got pretty burnt too. We didn't even get there until 3:00, and I _still _got burnt.  And it's not my first burn of the season! I am so butt azz white I hate it! :no: 

No hard feelings on my behalf. I'm not against you by any means. Just thought you were being a bit harsh on some!  But now I understand you didn't mean it that way! :thumbsup:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Kristina -You ever hear the old joke "*Denial *ain't just the name of a river in Egypt."?



Kristina said:


> I certainly don't aspire to make customers feel stupid, but wouldn't it feel good if we COULD?!?!


Do you think your problem might be your customers know exactly what you think of them?


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Kristina -You ever hear the old joke "*Denial *ain't just the name of a river in Egypt."?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think your problem might be your customers know exactly what you think of them?



I like a lot of my customers but I have "you are an ass" thoughts with many of them. 
Construction ain't rocket science and you don't have to feel good about everything you say or do. 
I must admit I want what you are taking Mike. I believe you are the next Zig Ziggler of construction sales


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## mas2006 (Mar 18, 2006)

*Rocket science*

Your level of education does not preclude you from being a PITA. Some people just come off as more pompous than others. Some come by it naturally :laughing: .

P.S. Fur sounds intriguing. lol:whistling


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

copusbuilder said:


> Mike. I believe you are the next Zig Ziggler of construction sales


Hey, that's an insult to Zig!  

I actually have had the good fortune of seeing him speak about 3 times and the really blessed experience of actually getting to talk to him for a few minutes just once. He is one of those rare individuals who can change your life, by opening up a whole new world to you. I had listened to some of his tapes for years when I was in my 20s and when I got to see him for the first time in person, it was like an Elvis fan getting to meet Elvis in person. He's awesome, super positive and after listening to him you always come away with such a clear perspective on life, he has some magic way of allowing you to sweep all the BS aside and concentrate on what is most important in life.

Since we are on the topic - 2 of my favorite zig quotes that I try to follow -

*"You can have everything in life that you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." *

and 

*"If you don't see yourself as a winner, then you cannot perform as a winner." *


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## ron schenker (Dec 11, 2005)

Mike Finley for moderator:clap: :notworthy or president:blink:


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## Patty (Jan 21, 2006)

ron schenker said:


> Mike Finley for moderator:clap: :notworthy or president:blink:


Oh oh,  

Now we got nominations for Glass (Bob) & Mike? 

This could get interesting!:blink:


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

(Ding)

On the left, in the blue trunks and representing the consevative party is Mr Mike Finley.

On the right, in the red poke a doted pleated briefs ....wwwith the mouse ears and floppy dog slippers and representing the Illinois state mental health facility is Glass Bob!:w00t:

Bob


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Glasshousebltr said:


> (Ding)
> 
> On the left, in the blue trunks and representing the consevative party is Mr Mike Finley.
> 
> ...


As the two oppents begin circling each other and sizing each other up, Bob takes a mistep and trips into Mike... Mike goes down hard mumbling something about "ow, my glass jaw again..." Bob is hoisted to the crowds shoulders and Mike hands Bob a pen where Bob gladly signs Mike's contract assigning him as his publicity agent for a 15% cut of the take.:clap:


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

The first time I heard about Zig was when my 'rents got involved in *cough* Amway *cough*.

I thought "Og Mandino" was a great motivational speaker, until I realized his name was created by scrambling the words "Go Diamond" which I had heard ad nauseum while I dated the son of some "Emeralds" in "the biness".  

I now have a phobia surrounding motivational speakers.

I heard about Zig again though at a leadership conference I attended in high school. I was a card carrying member of "DECA" Distributive Education Clubs of America, a marketing club. 

He's good stuff! :thumbsup:


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

Girls.... we got cheated big time on that last one!! They wanted us in mud! 

No taking it to the ring guys, we want some spandex and floor action going on. :laughing:


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## Kristina (Apr 21, 2006)

I agree we got ripped off, but I have NO desire to see ANY man in spandex.









I wouldn't mind them duking it out in some faded levi's and a white t-shirt though!!









*slaps self* Dirty girl!!! Stop it!!











realpurty2 said:


> Girls.... we got cheated big time on that last one!! They wanted us in mud!
> 
> No taking it to the ring guys, we want some spandex and floor action going on. :laughing:


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

People ask all the time and you can't blame them for trying. I always try. Why not? Sometimes one simple question will save you hundreds. What I have learned from reading several different negotiation books is that there is always room for improvement. I am often on both sides of the table, and I implore various techniques depending on which side I am on... but bottom line is it never hurts to try as a buyer.

If I am selling and someone asks, I go into my spiel about how we don't play pricing game, how it's a small job and there really isn't much markup (I don't care how large a job it is) but the bottom line is I can always give just a wee little bit to convince them to sign. Keep in mind any discount I might give is probably only good for that day or until the end of the week.


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