# pricing??



## jstor04 (Feb 7, 2014)

If you ask for $200 and pay your guy $180...200-180=$20. Unless you mean you ask for $200 on top of the $180?


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## Mr Knucklehead (May 31, 2014)

Pbpaints said:


> What I think I am trying to figure out is my day rate. I know a decorative painter and he tries to get 600 a day. For me at the moment I think 400 a day is fair.
> Now if I pay a guy 180 day how much do I charge the client?
> I feel like I know the answer but I just haven't heard what I wanted to hear yet. My comp is about 3500 a year and insurance 2300. I guess I am looking for a formula, if one even exists.
> Maybe I need to figure out how much I want to make a year and go from there.
> Dont judge me guys I may be over thinking this but I just want to protect myself and be successful


There's no simple answer, but I'll try...

I think you need to sit down with a good accountant (not some clown from Liberty Tax Service) Someone who is experienced with businesses and contractors. 
I set up a 7 page excel estimate sheet with my accountant. He actually worked on page 6 which is employee labor rates breaking down Fed, NYS, SS, MC withholdings, Workers Comp, Employee SS/MC match, P&O down to the hour. It has 6 categories of employees, ProjMngr, Working GC, Lead Carp, Class 1 Carp, Class 2 Carp, Helper.

All I do is figure out how long the job will take and who will be working it and just input hours for each employee. 


The other pages are broken down into Allowances, Materials, Subs, etc.. Once I figure out exactly what will be needed for the project (right down to tipping delivery guys, etc..) I can then come up with a number I'm confident with. The last page is Final Costs, it lists all categories showing cost for that category and P&O. 

The more you break down your project the more accurate you will be with your project costs and the easier it is to back something out if a customer decides to eliminate an element of the project (without backing out the P&O for that item) 

OK I tried


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

Mr Knucklehead said:


> There's no simple answer, but I'll try...
> 
> I think you need to sit down with a good accountant (not some clown from Liberty Tax Service) Someone who is experienced with businesses and contractors.
> I set up a 7 page excel estimate sheet with my accountant. He actually worked on page 6 which is employee labor rates breaking down Fed, NYS, SS, MC withholdings, Workers Comp, Employee SS/MC match, P&O down to the hour. It has 6 categories of employees, ProjMngr, Working GC, Lead Carp, Class 1 Carp, Class 2 Carp, Helper.
> ...


While I have no employees, I also use a fairly large excell workbook to work up quoted, track expenses, payments and divide the money up into categories of where the money goes at the end of the job. Life is much easier with it doing the math.


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## Tarpontim (May 30, 2014)

I would always price a job towards the high end. If I didn't get it, that's ok. I would rather *know *I am making money when I am working. 
I have spent a lot of time in sales and land most of my jobs. Selling to a client is a little more then just giving them a price. You need to back it up with many other items. Such as testimonials, guarantees, references... Have these items already in a binder so when a customs asks for them you have them ready to hand to them. (And you know they will! Especially if you ask them questions that would lead them to ask!) It is real simple. You need to create a sales system that you can use on all estimates. I can explain more on how I do it if anyone would like.


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## Pbpaints (Mar 12, 2014)

Thanks again guys you never fail me. I am at a transition point, I realize that I have to price on the higher end now because I have better guys. I think it was hard to let go of those 3 jobs last month but I move on quickly. I am upset because I had a soso site up with numerous testimonials and pictures but a designer friend was going to build a new site for me. So she took the old one down and now became to busy, basically im pissed cause now I look like the average joe. Again great tips and advice thankyou
I dont know if I am ready for a spreadsheet style of bidding just yet but maybe in a few months but thanks dude really appreciate the thought and will talk to my accountant. 
Thanks again


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## straightedgellc (Jul 12, 2014)

I like to have an average price per unit or sq. footage but I actually more lean towards amount of time to complete job, amount of workers needed (and their average speed), materials cost, and what I would like to make on the job as the owner. I think this is the best way because different crews will be faster than others so you always have to keep in mind how long with the job take considering the speed of the workers on the job...


house painters Jacksonville fl


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## Pbpaints (Mar 12, 2014)

Thanks man I have actually assembled a good crew of four guys and I have since been pricing my guys per day on site pluse my day rate on top.


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## NDW (May 28, 2011)

That's because your prices are based on the last tool you were eyeing on the shelf :laughing: C'mon, admit it


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## Pbpaints (Mar 12, 2014)

Yeah that porter cable dustless sander


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## Pbpaints (Mar 12, 2014)

Or the festool I'm not picky


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## Caslon (Dec 15, 2007)

Pbpaints said:


> Okay so my wife does the "office" work for my small but growing company. I have worked for a great boss mentor for about 6 years then I opened a bike shop with two other guys that didn't work out. Aaaanyway she complains about what appears to be a fluctuation in my pricing. I simply tell her that every job is different and I dont have a exact formula for pricing a job. Any suggestions or comments on pricing.
> Thanks.


Is this about painting? How? Your bike business fails and now it's how to make this new business work? Bikes and the painting trade are different. So...your question was? Oh...the wife? hehehe

ummm, tell her to get the rolls in the oven and her buns into bed.


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## PennCoat (Apr 15, 2014)

Here's an online Painter Estimate tool I found. I have never used it, but it appears to be a nice tool for anyone without any estimating experience. 

http://www.paintestimating.com/new/index.php


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Every trade has their units of measurement and/or a combination thereof... SF, LF, CF, etc...

You need to assign value to those... your wife is right... you should be able to look at a job and know your pricing which includes a profit above and beyond your pay. Profit is what you pay your company, so you have things like capital reserves, emergency fund, etc...

For things that are out of the ordinary (the every job is different aspect), you still need a way to price those things out.

If you develop a price list for everything you offer that includes all your expenses and profit, you will look at your business in a whole new light and realize how much you are actually giving away that causes "rob Peter to pay Paul" cycles...

An accountant can help setup the framework but you still have to do the work... but if you do this, it will quickly become apparent what jobs are making you money and which ones were costing you money.

Best of luck... 8^)


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## Pbpaints (Mar 12, 2014)

Thankyou for taking your time to write that wonderful advice. 
I was unsure about figuring labor, my day rate, materials and then business costs.
Thankyou for having me revisit that thought. Any idea of a percentage I should add on for my storage, workers comp, insurance and transport?

As for the bike shop I was a small percent owner. my job was to run the day to day operations without controll of the books. I know you guys are going to jump on me but the main guy was just stupid and didnt know how to save/spend. Thats why we went under. 
I also painted for six years prior to the shop so I didn't just resort to painting I always and still do love my job.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

It sounded like a convoluted mess to begin with. If you were a partner and only had a small amount of control you were being used for financial backing. Accountants do paperwork and don't have any idea on how much time custom work takes. I don't see how an accountant can set/question pricing unless it's repetitive work. 

If you step out on your own just figure in all of your expenses, including toilet paper, and how much you would need to keep the doors open. Then figure out how much it would take to keep you interested. The old saying "too many cooks in the kitchen" applies to business very well.


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## straightedgellc (Jul 12, 2014)

I think you have to bid jobs to get them if you need them, but work extra hard on your marketing efforts on the side to get more leads. I read this somewhere and it stuck with me...guys read this and know this! *"you can only charge a price that you can support"* meaning you can only charge a high price if you have created options for yourself through, referrals, word of mouth, and marketing efforts. :thumbsup:


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

straightedgellc said:


> "you can only charge a price that you can support" meaning you can only charge a high price if you have created options for yourself through, referrals, word of mouth, and marketing efforts. :thumbsup:


I think it could also mean that the quality should match the invoice.


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## Grateful_Monk (Jan 31, 2014)

Pbpaints said:


> Okay so my wife does the "office" work for my small but growing company.


Stop Right There!

Not good for business, not good for family.


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## straightedgellc (Jul 12, 2014)

I think it would be great for my wife to do my office work if I could find a good wife! :laughing:

She would have to do a great job but I think she would because of it contributing to the family...





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## madmax718 (Dec 7, 2012)

Based upon the way you calculate, you really don't take complex factors into the equation. Which is good, and bad at the same time. 

Paint is expensive, even at contractor rates. I do a pretty darn good job of painting, but I take a lot of precautions that take time and money (like masking everything off, covering the floors, etc). I've had pro painters that never had a single spec drop, but I still put down covering- not worth the headaches for a few minutes of preparation. 

If you want above average paying jobs, you'll have to get a lot of word of mouth referrals. And professional image is important. Neat, clean, not smelly. Especially in the "paint and finish" category, that image is easily worth 100 bucks a day. People do notice when your tools of the trade are organized, vs a old paint bucket, even if the person with the paint bucket is the better tradesmen. 

Price out what you think that market will support- and also price accordingly to their "timeline"- if they want you in and out in 2 days, price higher. If they are flexible, price a little lower. Give them options on paint, the number of coats, etc. 

180 for your guys is pretty decent wage. How many hours do they work a day? Figure out how many you are hiring- also keep in mind the new laws on heathcare and "paid sick days" if you go over 5 employees. 

are they 1099 or w2's? Are you withholding for them or not? You need to check with a Small business accountant, they can help you a lot more in figuring out how to do everything legally, and make some profit.


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