# This is for the opponents of Sharkbite and other push-in fittings



## Electric_Light

This is the fitting used on a returnless fuel line. It operates under severe vibration, wide temperature range of sub-zero to ~200F and carries gasoline pressurized at about 50 psi. It comes in from fuel pump at left, then the other end of hose uses another clip-on fitting that connects to fuel injector manifold. 

There is a rib on the metal line as opposed to teeth biting onto smooth surface, however the clip assembly is plastic. Disconnecting involves simply pushing on the white part and pulling straight out. Seal is established with an elastomer material (rubber is elastomer, but not all elastomer is simple "rubber"). 


This setup was chosen over compression or flare fittings and vehicle manufacturer deemed it was satisfactory.

Now, some of you still oppose the use of elastomer sealed connections for WATER???


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## ChrWright

What's the average expected lifespan of a vehicle?



> The U.S. Department of Transportation reports that the average life span of a vehicle is just over 13 years, with a final mileage of 145,000 miles.


What's the expected lifespan for a household plumbing system?

Shark bites may have their place, but I'm not seeing the correlation in your example.


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## Bastien1337

ChrWright said:


> What's the average expected lifespan of a vehicle?
> 
> 
> 
> What's the expected lifespan for a household plumbing system?
> 
> Shark bites may have their place, but I'm not seeing the correlation in your example.


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## katoman

And what's the expected life expectancy of any given plumbing connector?

Not a soldered connection.

I'll guess - 15 - 20 yrs max.


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## ApgarNJ

Thanks Chris, you said exactly what I was going to say. 

Vehicles have fuel lines that usually rust out in most parts of the northern states in 6-8 years if not before that. 
A house plumbing system should last several generations and then some. Sharkbites are going to be a MAJOR problem down the road when they were used for entire houses. I really can't see a plumber being that desperate that they need to cut corners and use those. PEX is fast and a safer system. PEX might even outlast copper. Sharkbites have a gasket that WILL wear out someday and leak, only a matter of time. These companies making them can't test them for 50-100 years before they are released to the public. 

I will only use them for bathrooms when we gut them and have to cap the supplies. or kitchens for the same reason.


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## katoman

These came up in another thread. I think they're cool, but why not just shut the water off and install shut off valves?

And there's no way mechanical fittings last several generations. Most are toast in 20 years max.


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## Mike's Plumbing

I can't believe we are gonna have this same argument again. It's like the dam Twilight Zone in here sometimes.

_......Picture if you will, a man, beyond sight and sound....you've just enetered...da da da....the Twilight zone....._


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## Bastien1337

my dad can beat up your dad


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## katoman

I can beat up all your dads. At the same time. :clap:


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## WarnerConstInc.

They serve their purpose. 

Sure beats trying to burn an old house down when you can't get at something.

Who would plumb a whole house in them?


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## ApgarNJ

warnerconstinc. said:


> who would plumb a whole house in them?


morons.


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## ApgarNJ

katoman said:


> These came up in another thread. I think they're cool, but why not just shut the water off and install shut off valves?
> 
> And there's no way mechanical fittings last several generations. Most are toast in 20 years max.


we shut the water off, cut the lines, push the shark bites on, turn water back on, keep working until the plumber can come to sweat in the new valve and other plumbing work, this to me is WHY these things were invented. 

whoever said you could use them permanently was smoking crack that day.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

WarnerConstInc. said:


> They serve their purpose.
> 
> Sure beats trying to burn an old house down when you can't get at something.
> 
> Who would plumb a whole house in them?


Believe it or not hundreds of thousands do all across the world. Its very common in Europe to plumb a whole house in these. The last house I did was about 5000sqft and it took me and my boss 2 days to plumb the whole house in. I didn't think it was a good idea. They have an expected lifespand of 15 years under normal use last time I checked. Look what's happens to tap washers after 5 years. The same exact thing will happen to the o rings in these fittings. I don't care what kind of space age rubber they are made from. They will fail much sooner than copper and all at around the same time.


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## ApgarNJ

BCConstruction said:


> Believe it or not hundreds of thousands do all across the world. Its very common in Europe to plumb a whole house in these. The last house I did was about 5000sqft and it took me and my boss 2 days to plumb the whole house in. I didn't think it was a good idea. They have an expected lifespand of 15 years under normal use last time I checked. Look what's happens to tap washers after 5 years. The same exact thing will happen to the o rings in these fittings. I don't care what kind of space age rubber they are made from. They will fail much sooner than copper and all at around the same time.


so in 15 years, the plumbers and remodelers in europe will have LOTS of repair work to do. sounds to me like job security. lol

how much faster can it be than using PEX for a whole house? plus pex is a lot cheaper than copper right now, so using shark bites for a whole house using copper is not going to be less expensive. and I'm not even sure how much faster it would be VS. pex fittings. some plumbers can chime in here and relay that info.

another shark bite thread, lock it down!!!!


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## Mike's Plumbing

Mark my words

One day we will look back and the "sharkbit" fitting will be the largest mistake ever made to the consumer. After all, they are the ones who really pay the ultimate price.

There will be a massive recall....I guarantee it!

They are awesome for temp caps though.

Mike


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## Mike Finley

Electric_Light said:


> This is the fitting used on a returnless fuel line. It operates under severe vibration, wide temperature range of sub-zero to ~200F and carries gasoline pressurized at about 50 psi. It comes in from fuel pump at left, then the other end of hose uses another clip-on fitting that connects to fuel injector manifold.
> 
> There is a rib on the metal line as opposed to teeth biting onto smooth surface, however the clip assembly is plastic. Disconnecting involves simply pushing on the white part and pulling straight out. Seal is established with an elastomer material (rubber is elastomer, but not all elastomer is simple "rubber").
> 
> 
> This setup was chosen over compression or flare fittings and vehicle manufacturer deemed it was satisfactory.
> 
> Now, some of you still oppose the use of elastomer sealed connections for WATER???


They look good in your house.

Not in mine. 

Enjoy them.

Don't forget to install some of the Qest pipe with them. There were a lot of people who used to argue how good that stuff was too. :thumbsup:


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## bhock

> There is a rib on the metal line as opposed to teeth biting onto smooth surface


Maybe if sharkbite required a rib to be put in the pipe it would be received better.
Gas line leaks you know about it. Water line inside a wall leaks you know about it after a few thousand dollars in damage is caused.


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## KillerToiletSpider

I don't have an opinion on push fit fittings, they are not code approved in Chicago.


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## UALocal1Plumber

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I don't have an opinion on push fit fittings, they are not code approved in Chicago.


They aren't code approved in a lot of places. What's frustrating is seeing them in use where they aren't permitted. . . sometimes by licensed plumbers. Personally I think they're garbage. Anyone using them is covering something up.

Keith


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## rex

wannabe GC's/handy hacks/and ho's use them...i agree there are super cool for caps and temp stuff...

if you wanna see a dead horse beat go to PZ lots of good input there and even more idiots


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## Bastien1337

I like them for temp caps and for shutoffs in accessible areas.

i as well wouldn't plumb a house with them. too expensive if anything.


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## MAULEMALL

Bastien1337 said:


> I like them for temp caps and for shutoffs in accessible areas.
> 
> i as well wouldn't plumb a house with them. too expensive if anything.


 
And the fact that they are reusable... I have reused my caps 4 times already...


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## Electric_Light

ChrWright said:


> What's the average expected lifespan of a vehicle?
> 
> 
> 
> What's the expected lifespan for a household plumbing system?
> 
> Shark bites may have their place, but I'm not seeing the correlation in your example.


Take into account, houses are not subject to violent vibrations and shocks vehicles are subject to on regular basis. The refrigerant lines between coils and the compressor are flex lines since metal lines would not be able to endure the flexing without stress cracking.


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## ApgarNJ

Still doesn't matter, plumbing in a house should last 100 years or more and fuel lines in a car need to last 10 years or so and you start to replace them.

no one should be using these in a permanent location, and i think most here agree. they also cost an arm/leg.


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## TBFGhost

ApgarNJ said:


> Thanks Chris, you said exactly what I was going to say.
> 
> Vehicles have fuel lines that usually rust out in most parts of the northern states in 6-8 years if not before that.


Actually, many cars now use a polymer based fuel line to prevent them rusting out.


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## Bastien1337

MAULEMALL said:


> And the fact that they are reusable... I have reused my caps 4 times already...


reusable caps is the no brainer for me. but I think that has been clearly agreed upon already.


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## jarvis design

Just read through the last bit of this thread, and am wondering why anyone is comparing gasoline and water??


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## mrmike

Lets start a poll on them. I for one Love them for Emergency work. Used a 3/4 " coupling today fixing a busted water line that froze & was in a super hard spot get at (the pipes are run along the wood floor & boxed in) at a Hair Salon that was operating. Cut on each end of the slit on the pipe & popped the Sharkbite on & away I went with the place still operating...................... Now soldering a Union on in that spot would have been a nightmare................ Thanks for Sharkbites !!
PS. I don't use them for new plumbing anywhere


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## Mike's Plumbing

Pro-press is pretty cool, but I still don't trust it.

I was the foreman on a 10 story hospital that we did in pro-press.

Mike


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## Inner10

How do those push connectors work for plastic gas lines anyway..are they like a shark bite?


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## Electric_Light

Inner10 said:


> How do those push connectors work for plastic gas lines anyway..are they like a shark bite?


The male end is ribbed. The only difference is how they physically hold in place. I think the skepticism isn't so much in that, but the ability of elastomer ring to maintain liquid tight for the lifetime of system.

Well, true the useful life of cars are shorter.... but

gasoline is tougher on elastomers than water. Cars go through much harsher environmental conditions and fuel system holds pressure even after the car is turned off, so reliability is of great importance. If that thing leaks fuel and drips onto hot exhaust manifold and gas catches on fire and car burns in your garage and burn down your house. 

If SharkBite fittings leak a little bit, the consequences aren't as severe.


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## KillerToiletSpider

Electric_Light said:


> If SharkBite fittings leak a little bit, the consequences aren't as severe.


What if that leak is concealed in a wall on the 87th floor?

You won't know it's leaking till the ceiling on the 86th floor falls down, and it may go further than just one floor.

Oh, and by the way, buildings do move, that is why we put in expansion loops every fifth floor.


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## jkonks

I cant understand why a bunch of pro's would be sitting around and debaiting the use of sharkbites, Where im located those are used for two things someone that dont no how to sweat pipes and dont have pex tools, or for the pro that needs a temp fix. This is generaly a HO DIY product!:wallbash:


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## Electric_Light

KillerToiletSpider said:


> What if that leak is concealed in a wall on the 87th floor?
> 
> You won't know it's leaking till the ceiling on the 86th floor falls down, and it may go further than just one floor.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, buildings do move, that is why we put in expansion loops every fifth floor.


There are ferries that you can take your car on. The car is driven on, and you hop on the ferry to. Fuel system often remain pressurized. Now if one car sprang a fuel leak and caught fire among a lot of other cars in middle of the water... damage goes more than just one car.


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## KillerToiletSpider

Electric_Light said:


> There are ferries that you can take your car on. The car is driven on, and you hop on the ferry to. Fuel system often remain pressurized. Now if one car sprang a fuel leak and caught fire among a lot of other cars in middle of the water... damage goes more than just one car.


What is the ignition source from a parked car that is not running, and how the hell does it compare to a system that is under constant pressure?

You are comparing peanuts to coconuts, and not answering the actual possible scenario I pointed out, most likely because you can't, it is a concept beyond your grasp.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Electric_Light said:


> There are ferries that you can take your car on. The car is driven on, and you hop on the ferry to. Fuel system often remain pressurized. Now if one car sprang a fuel leak and caught fire among a lot of other cars in middle of the water... damage goes more than just one car.


Seems you think that car fuel systems never leak. The thing is they do and pretty often. speak to any mechanic they will tell you this also. The thing is even if they do leak that don't mean they will catch on fire. Far from it infact. Our over flow on our boat come lose and we put about 20 gallons of fuel into the bottom of the boat without knowing. We went most of the day without any issue. This fuel was covering electrical parts all over the boat and touch hot parts of the engine with no fire.


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## Electric_Light

KillerToiletSpider said:


> What is the ignition source from a parked car that is not running, and how the hell does it compare to a system that is under constant pressure?
> 
> You are comparing peanuts to coconuts, and not answering the actual possible scenario I pointed out, most likely because you can't, it is a concept beyond your grasp.


Exhaust manifold is very hot right after the car is shut off. Also, the electrical contacts nearby can ignite fumes.


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## ApgarNJ

DO CARS LAST 50-100 years or more ???? didn't think so.


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## KillerToiletSpider

Electric_Light said:


> Exhaust manifold is very hot right after the car is shut off. Also, the electrical contacts nearby can ignite fumes.


Gas does not ignite from heat, and you have no idea what you are talking about, quit while you are behind, every response just proves how much of a fool you are.


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## Tscarborough

My Pops has a 1955 T-bird that runs as good or better today than it did 56 years ago.










(It actually has a red hardtop and spoke wheels on it now)


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## Ckconst

I will have to try that from my computer as the only attachments that I can get from my iPhone are pictures, not a PDF


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## Ckconst

here is the pdf i was sent


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## DuMass

I don’t have a stake in this debate one way or the other, but I honestly don’t see anything in that .PDF that specifically states they are actually approved for use in any particular location, but the last sentence on the Certificate of Listing indicates that you would need to check with the AHJ regarding acceptance.

“This listing is subject to the conditions set forth in the characteristics below and is not to be construed as any recommendation, assurance or guarantee by IAPMO Research and Testing, Inc. of the product acceptance by Authorities Having Jurisdiction.”


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## angus242

DuMass said:


> I don’t have a stake in this debate one way or the other, but I honestly don’t see anything in that .PDF that specifically states they are actually approved for use in any particular location, but the last sentence on the Certificate of Listing indicates that you would need to check with the AHJ regarding acceptance.
> 
> “This listing is subject to the conditions set forth in the characteristics below and is not to be construed as any recommendation, assurance or guarantee by IAPMO Research and Testing, Inc. of the product acceptance by Authorities Having Jurisdiction.”


Agreed.


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## Ckconst

Guys,

I specifically emailed an specifically asked if the sharkbite fittings were approved for use under the Chicago plumbing code. They responded that the fittings were not only approved under the Chicago plumbing code, but also the Illinois plumbing code. I can't see why they would answer my email back and say they were if they were not? What would they gain by lying to me, someone who they do not know?


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## angus242

Ckconst said:


> What would they gain by lying to me, someone who they do not know?



Sales, my man. Sales!

You did come to a contractor forum and re-quote what they said...without any concrete proof as in an amendment from the Chicago Plumbing Code.


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## Ckconst

I didn't know I had to have proof of anything? What I quoted was a specific question to a manufacturer asking them if their fittings were approved for use under the Chicago plumbing code. I am not saying I know the code inside and out, but j would assume that what he sent me can be verified against both the Chicago and Illinois plumbing code as certain fittings that have certifications for use under the codes. I will try and get in contact with someone for both the Chicago and Illinois plumbing codes to see if they are in fact approved for use. But again, I can't see why they would outright lie or try to be deceiving about it. I was very specific with my question and left no room for vagueness. I have been a land developer/builder for the last 18 years so I am the farthest from being naive about sales, products, etc. In fact, I am probably more cynical than most when it comes to pitches, sales, etc. Common sense would tell me that he has nothing to gain by lying about something that can be checked, and that he would be putting his company, a very large company, at risk by his actions. Not saying it can't happen, just unlikely. I will get the "concrete evidence", not because of this thread, but really for my own knowledge.


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## angus242

Ck, you're getting defensive for little reason. I'm not questioning _you_. I'm questioning the info _passed _to you. 

Hell, I've had Liquid Nails tell me it's OK and "certified" to install tile with :laughing:


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## Ckconst

Not defensive at all. Have seen plenty of different forums, whether contractors, fishing, sports, etc where people are attacked for their opinions

If you knew me, you would know that I am the type of guy that would rather laugh and have a beer than argue. Life is too short. Just realized in my life that is ok to have a different opinion than the masses and to respect everyone for their own ideas/opinions.


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## txgencon

KillerToiletSpider said:


> ...it's not exactly rocket surgery.


I love mixed metaphors.


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## Remodelor

WarnerConstInc. said:


> They serve their purpose.
> 
> Sure beats trying to burn an old house down when you can't get at something.
> 
> Who would plumb a whole house in them?


Besides that, who could afford to plumb a whole house in them?


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## Tom Struble

i don't understand why the guys that hate them only use them in difficult situations or even use them at all? that seems pretty dumb to me


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## Tinstaafl

Heck, I don't hate them. But I don't use them, either. :laughing:


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## ApgarNJ

tomstruble said:


> i don't understand why the guys that hate them only use them in difficult situations or even use them at all? that seems pretty dumb to me


I think the guys that hate them, hate them for doing permanent work. I see no reason to hate them for temporary caps/unions. I will be anxious to see any of the whole house jobs start to leak all over in the next few decades. If not sooner.


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## Tom Struble

but Dan temporary or not if there going to definitely leak why would anyone trust them,even a temporary fitting that leaks will cause alot of damage and for use in hard to access areas the use of them sounds even more ludicrous


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## ApgarNJ

Tom, because they aren't going to LEAK right away, could take several years or decades even for a potential problem to show up.

I'm talking about a bathroom gut, where I can drain the lines, cut the old out, cap with shark bites, turn the water on. The next day or so, plumber sweats in his new valves, etc. I trust them enough that they will not leak for a short term solution.

make sense?


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## Tom Struble

i guess... they are good ...but not that good


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## Ckconst

guys,

I emailed the makers of sharkbite and asked them for more specific information regarding their approved use under the illinois and chicago plumbing codes. They emailed me a pdf attachment that is a letter from the illinois department of public health stating that the valves and fittings are approved for use in Illinois, as of 2007. So they have been approved for use in illinois for more than 6 years. Here is a copy of the email correspondance and I also attached a copy of the pdf:



Matt,

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. With the recent tornadoes in Alabama power has been sporadic. However, were back in business now. I attached a letter from the IL Dept. of Health stating SharkBite® fittings are permitted in the state of Illinois. Our fittings are marked accordingly to comply with ASSE standards. The same applies for the City of Chicago as they comply with Illinois code. Please let me know if I can help you with anything else. 



Thanks,



Ben Wertz

Cash Acme 

A Division of the Reliance Worldwide Corporation

Ph: (205) 803-4516







From: matt klabisch 
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:23 PM
To: Ben Wertz; John Brill; John Brill
Subject: Fw: code










----- Forwarded Message ----
From: matt klabisch 
To: Ben Wertz
Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 7:11:39 AM
Subject: Re: code

ben,



Thanks for the response and the attachment. I was hoping you could help me out and be a little more specific in showing me how/where the fittings are approved for use under both codes ( maybe reference me specifically to where in both codes the fittings are referenced) I have a few jobs coming up in both the city of Chicago and villages that fall under the state code and I would like to be prepared to handle any questions with the inspectors during the permit/plan stages, as I know I have asked quite a few plumbers and they did not think the fittings were approved for use under either of the codes. Any help/direction is truly appreciated


Thanks,

Matt Klabisch











--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ben Wertz 
To: matt klabisch 
Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 10:37:34 AM
Subject: RE: code

Matt,



SharkBite® push fittings are certified under the Illinois and Chicago plumbing code. Attached is our current IAPMO certification listing.



Thanks,



Ben Wertz



Cash Acme 

A Division of the Reliance Worldwide Corporation

Ph: (205) 803-4516


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## Grumpyplumber

*Comparing a rubber fuel line to a seal thats made on a potable water system with an O-ring that's roughly 1/8" thick is nuts.

When the fuel line goes, it leaks onto the ground with little harm more than some dissolved pavement, I've spliced a couple in my time on vehicles less than ten years old when the rubber begins to dry and crack.

Just look at a toilet flapper after five to ten years, the way the rubber stains your hand after a few years of exposure to chemically treated drinking water.

When the rubber flapper goes, you replace it.

When the rubber seals go in a faucet, you replace them.

When the rubber seal starts to go in a valve, you tighten the packing nut.

When the 1/8" O-ring goes on those Sharkbites inside a wall, you're screwed.*


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## ChrWright

:laughing:


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