# Pan slope customizing



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Hank B. said:


> Sorry if I came across kind of rude. would you put lath under the mud? I feel like the mark e setup creates control joints in the pan that don't need to be there. Given enough movement it's got a place to crack and fail where it might otherwise just shift. My other concern with that set-up its how can you evenly pack the mud. No feasible way to pack the mud evenly through the holes and under the strips evenly and the strength of deck mud is directly proportionate to how much you beat on it.
> 
> These may not be actual problems in most cases though. Like you say, lots of Styrofoam getting tiled over these days.



Yea, I go tar paper and metal lath with lath screws then the sticks.

Truly, I don't know the answer to the control joint issue. Doesn't the magical Kerdi membrane handle that problem?

I did take extra special care to pack my mud through all the enlarged holes very well before I went on with the rest of the deck mud. I assumed that would unify the slab and reduce the possibility of creating a control joint.

I always pack my mud like a an insane gorilla cuz my grandfather taught me to, never realized that it had that direct an effect on strength. Thought that proper cure was more important. 

Sincere thanks for your input. These issues are exactly why I asked the question.


----------



## Hank B. (May 6, 2013)

Proper cure its important too. A prominent member of the industry mentioned on another forum testing the deck mud torn out of shower pans constructed during classes. Can't directly recall the the exact numbers but the difference between lightly tapping it and beating the crap out of it was like 800psi I'll have to see if I can find his post.


----------



## Hank B. (May 6, 2013)

I was waaaay off. 

"If you don't pack it at all it is usually around 800-1000, smack it 2-3 times 1800-2200, wail it hard 3000, beat the heck out of it till footprint free, 3300-3600 roughly speaking. Why do I know? Use to cut and break cubes after shower class was over for almost a year. That was 4 or 5 to 1 with sharp sand." Dave Gobis


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Hank B. said:


> I was waaaay off.
> 
> "If you don't pack it at all it is usually around 800-1000, smack it 2-3 times 1800-2200, wail it hard 3000, beat the heck out of it till footprint free, 3300-3600 roughly speaking. Why do I know? Use to cut and break cubes after shower class was over for almost a year. That was 4 or 5 to 1 with sharp sand." Dave Gobis


 That is amazing.

Almost as amazing as how much chit I learn here. 

I am going to beat the living crap out of my mud from now on. I had no idea. I was taught to pack it well, (I think I am right around 2800) but now it is going to get violent.

Thanks again:thumbsup:


----------



## LyonsPrideTile (May 10, 2013)

You're putting way to much effort into what is supposed to be academic to any good mechanic. I wasn't allowed to even carry a case of tile until I could do mud jobs any size any shape, level perimeter in under 2 hours. Find yourself a good teacher and get back to basics.


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks Lyons.

I "could" finish the bed in an hour using only an old beer bottle and it would be 92%. 

I never claimed to be an expert tile setter. I AM NOT. That's why I'm here. I USED TO DO ALL MY PANS BY HAND.....no screeds, they were (still are) pretty darn good.........but alas, I must progress......veni, vidi, vici. 

I like my new way of doing slopes...Mark E sticks, BlueSticks, the Orlando Method (never actually tried that one). It seems easier and much more precise TO ME.

Schluter Dilex?.....looks interesting. Back to basics?

In the end. I'll have to respectfully ignore your advice for remedial instruction. I do okay with my BlueSticks (patent pending).


----------



## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

and the whorelando way !


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Bluestickin' .......sure a little more time, but laser precise.


----------



## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

That's the sane thing i did. But only spent 4 dollars


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Floormasta78 said:


> That's the sane thing i did. But only spent 4 dollars


He leaves the sticks in.

And you used rich man's mud.


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Floormasta78 said:


> That's the sane thing i did. But only spent 4 dollars


 "I" didn't spend anything. 

My client spent $25. Recouped from poor man's mud savings.

The plywood is definitely cool. But admit it......THAT CHIT IS TIGHT!
Not for everyone maybe......but for me.....I love how exacting they are.

I've been thinking about why an absolutely perfect slope is so important to me. I'm laying some fan-shaped mosaic carrerra on that shower floor.

I find that trying to overcome any defects in the pan using tile like that leads to a joint cleaning nightmare. I just love setting the mosaics nice and deep.....but nice and clean.

As I was floating the pan I was also thinkin how all the old-school guys that commented must be so much better at it than me. Which is probably why I love my sticks.


----------



## Hank B. (May 6, 2013)

no imperfections in my pans, it's essentially the same method you used, but instead of using strips you just create them with mud as you go.


----------



## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Leave it to a bunch of tile setters to argue over methods that accomplish exactly the same damned thing lol. Do what's comfortable and efficient for You - provided you end up with at least 1/4" per ft. and there's nothing left in the assembly to rot. I've used all of the methods listed above.


----------



## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

I'm in no way an expert .. Not even close. These tHings , I've ended up doing because my experience in other trades , and i utilize the same ideas. But the way the real good guys do it. I've seen, the pitch as they pack


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Hank B. said:


> no imperfections in my pans, it's essentially the same method you used, but instead of using strips you just create them with mud as you go.


 That is exactly what I was thinking as I was doing it. 

There is a lot of truth in the re-education statement. But that ain't happening at this point. I would love to bring one of the CT tile assassins in to do a shower for me, just so I could watch. Every time I lay tile, I wonder how they would critique me. The cool thing is, I would be embarrassed, but would love to have every small deficiency pointed out.

I have done it your way, but I constantly worry that a previous section got out of line on me as I progressed, and I do end up with minor imperfections. This method gives me a feeling of/and resulting certainty. For a guy that does 5-7 showers a year.......it looks like it will work well.

WHen something is your "trade", your specialty, and you are at the top of your game.......you do chit perfect....... intuitively/subconsciously, almost without "effort". I think i drop some pretty decent tile, but I still have a lot to learn.

Thanks again Hank.....everyone.


----------



## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

While I read all these and as a pretty good pan builder myself(sorry about bragging) not needing any of these sticks and stones, thinking what would be the next in the future of building. I know there are equipments that uses GPS to draw game lines for sport flooring.
I am sure in very near future there will be an app that uses GPS/camera/laser in the phone to help create a slope in that dawn pan. All it needs a look at the screen and know where to lower or pack areas to correct the slope. like a UV light map, u'now what i mean? Don't laugh, it is happening...:laughing:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I'd rather just snap a picture of the subfloor, text it to the supply house, and pick up my pre cast lightweight base the next morning.


----------



## bowtie (Feb 4, 2012)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Bluestickin' .......sure a little more time, but laser precise.


Your curbs are wood?


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

bowtie said:


> Your curbs are wood?


Hardi-backer glued and screwed, then full Kerdi wrap.


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I'd rather just snap a picture of the subfloor, text it to the supply house, and pick up my pre cast lightweight base the next morning.


 I wish.

I live in a supply black hole. I can't even get decent thin-sets without ordering a few days in advance from 50 miles away.


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Hank B. said:


> These may not be actual problems in most cases though. Like you say, lots of Styrofoam getting tiled over these days.


Isn't most 'stucco' these days over styrofoam? Yup, durable stuff there....... :whistling


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Do what's comfortable and efficient for You


:thumbsup:


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

CO762 said:


> Isn't most 'stucco' these days over styrofoam? Yup, durable stuff there....... :whistling


 We just built a custom that had Dryvit over 6" styrofoam. 

The stucco guys left a bunch of the blocks on the job, like 2' x 4'.

We started stacking them up and laying our 20" x 24' Werner stages on them to do porch ceiling work. They were rock solid, didn't even compress at all with 2 guys working on the planks for days. We kept em.

Our stucco contractor also installed some special fiberglass?? mat thing (short term memory loss) under the Dryvit on all the porch walls and anywhere there would be traffic. A hammer would bounce off that stuff.

I was a full on stucco hater.....but that house has changed my opinion....so far.


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> We kept em.


You're my kinda engineer. :thumbsup:

Woodpeckers and water seem to be the weakness of euro stucco.
6" foam? Our garage was and will continue to get water damage from snow and drainage, so thinking about taking off the alum siding up to 3-4', then putting stucco there like a rain screen.


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Yup....already had one peckerwood woodpecker pecking at it.
Superior walls down low....so no water issues.

6" over 2x4 walls with pink in em. Super-insulated. 

Still never gonna catch me building a stucco house for myself, but I was definitely impressed. The Dryvit sample was on cardboard and had been kicking around my architects office for 5+ years....no cracks, looked great.

Pics? Sure....since you asked......


----------



## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Everything down here is stucco. Holds up better than just about any other option imo.


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Interesting use of the site and orientation. And that is some super insulation.

I agree on the stucco, but I like it because it's, well mud and I like working with my hands, sculpting mud. Anyone can hold up a board and pull a trigger or snap and tink in sloppy plastic.....


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

CO762 said:


> Interesting use of the site and orientation. And that is some super insulation.
> 
> I agree on the stucco, but I like it because it's, well mud and I like working with my hands, sculpting mud. Anyone can hold up a board and pull a trigger or snap and tink in sloppy plastic.....


 All about the views, the river below, and a few degrees from due South.

Super duper insulated. Dig the screened soffits. We were up in the trusses in August finishing fart fan penetrations......comfortable.

I def have a new respect for stucco.


----------



## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

Back on track.

I built a pan today. My outer edge was 1 1/2" thick and up against the Laticrete drain was 1 1/4". It was only 30x30. 

I went around the outside by holding a 2x4 flat and about 1" out from the wall. I packed it in there all the way around, then packed in around the drain flange. Then I went back and did the field.

This gave me something to screed off of around the perimeter and worked fine.


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

cleveman said:


> Back on track.
> 
> I built a pan today. My outer edge was 1 1/2" thick and up against the Laticrete drain was 1 1/4". It was only 30x30.
> 
> ...


Sounds familiar.... :whistling



KAP said:


> Or you could just rim the drain and the wall with the first batch, let it set 10 minutes before working on the next batch, and screed it with the remaining batches... automatic sizing... :thumbsup:


----------



## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

That is right, but the method of going around was nice.


----------



## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Is'nt there an app for that? :whistling


----------



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Cleveman, 

If you are doing any type of surface membrane, I just build the pan using the bottom plate as a guide for the mud or set a line on the studs. Then set the drain height. Go around perimeter level,corner to drain,centers to drain, fill in and screed flat if needed. Then I crank the drain up the thickness of the tile.Done.

With the board in the mud, just set corners level at your chosen thickness and fill in as above.


----------



## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

One more done...This was a kind of re-do because the client was watching too much DIY TV I guess, He had the HardiBacker, I prefer Durock Nex, I had to pull all boards and push & align mixing valve etc. that is why it has many seams.
I will post pics when it is all done.It is not gonna be fancy as the house will be on market as soon as I finish.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Use this helpful diagram..


----------



## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Use this helpful diagram..


Alright Matt, what's the backstory on the pic?


----------



## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

I thought I shared that diagram with you in confidence, Matt.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

overanalyze said:


> Alright Matt, what's the backstory on the pic?


I got it from Orlando. I still think its funny..


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

overanalyze said:


> what's the backstory on the pic?


Unless it was written on a bar napkin or drink coaster, it wasn't worth what it engineered on.


----------

