# Be honest...



## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

rselectric1 said:


> Be careful guys-this is the internet. (If we were sitting around having beers, it would be different)


It's okay...nobody does it anymore and it was done long before it was wrong to do so...RIGHT GUYS?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> We pay a couple friends to help once in awhile when they are laid off. Nothing big though. 98% of the time it is just the two of us making an honest living. Never an illegal alien. If I did that, I may as well have them smuggle some drugs in and sell them too.
> 
> I agree with Grumpy, even though we operate much different, we both try to do things right, nothing good in return, and the guys who go against the law flourish. The problem is our government. If they would enforce the laws we have, the people in this country would have jobs.



Soooooo true.

:thumbsup:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Grumpy said:


> There is an IRS checklist to determine sub or employee. If someone works for you from time to time and also works for other contractors you can get around them being anemployee. I suggest anyone using independant contractors have them sign a document stating as such. That will certainly help you should you ever be audited. If they didn't pay your taxes, you have a form stating they are independant, the form will say they are liable for their own taxes, and further more if you generate a 1099 you are better covering your arse.
> 
> I too use independants/part timers as necessary. Let's say we have a big tear off job and needs some strong backs to help us get the old roof out of the way for the new roof... Great time to pick up some temporary help for a day or two.


Here's what kicks my arse about that...there are illegals working 6-7 days a week making good money. They stack their cash. They "buy" things (goods & services) so that money one way or another goes back into the economy.

But, because they are not allowed to work legally, they don't have to pay income taxes. They get no benefits of being an American with full fledged rights. But we get the benefit of their cheap labor. 

Mark my words, if we made them all legal, we could run criminal background searches, export all the undesirables, keep the productive ones and turn 20 Million people into taxpaying citizens. 

You want to talk about a Stimulus to The Economy?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

skyhook said:


> Big Brother is watching this thread. :thumbsup:


Statue of limitations. :thumbsup:

Plus, anything said on the internet is inadmissible in court unless it can be "proven".


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> With all the laws and rules, I am not sure if it is possible to do everything by the books for your whole life without missing something.
> 
> When I first found out how much an employee costs ON TOP of what he/she is already paid, I had to go home to change my underwear. Makes it simple to understand how hard it is for small business to stay IN business.


For Roofing, you're paying (depending on where you operate) anywhere from 50-100% more than salary (i.e. $20./hr pre-tax salary + $10.-$20./hour expenses like insurance, benefits, etc...).


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

2ndGen said:


> Statue of limitations. :thumbsup:
> 
> Plus, anything said on the internet is inadmissible in court unless it can be "proven".


:laughing: IRS - no statue of limitations for willfully trying to evade... 

Keep it under $600 - no 1099's to file, above that - watch out 

You do have to love the conflicting info you will get from the IRS and other government entities - they can't even keep all there answers straight, but we will get the "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse..."


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

SLSTech said:


> :laughing: IRS - no statue of limitations for willfully trying to evade...


:jester: I know. 



> Keep it under $600 - no 1099's to file, above that - watch out


Of course NEVER over $600. :whistling



> You do have to love the conflicting info you will get from the IRS and other government entities - they can't even keep all there answers straight, but we will get the "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse..."



"It's off the hook this year!
Makin mad money off the books this year! 
Gettin mad money off the books this year!"


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

It's statu*te* not statue fellas........

The problem is the illegals don't spend their money here, _the way we do_. They live 15 to a house and switch off heading back down to old mexico. They cheat and lie to get vehicles, license, plates, trailers, swap plates, everything the hazard boys used to do bootlegging. Once you are illegal, why stop there.....I just can't believe big well known "contractors", who advertise all over can trust them and put their name on illegal labor.

There are some good ones who actually follow the rules though. I should not stereotype.


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

2ndGen said:


> :laughing:



Alright you got me:laughing: But that line really dosent apply to contractors just to customers:clap::laughing:


Dave


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

dkillianjr said:


> Alright you got me:laughing: But that line really dosent apply to contractors just to customers:clap::laughing:
> 
> Dave


:cheesygri


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> It's statu*te* not statue fellas........
















> The problem is the illegals don't spend their money here, _the way we do_. They live 15 to a house and switch off heading back down to old mexico. They cheat and lie to get vehicles, license, plates, trailers, swap plates, everything the hazard boys used to do bootlegging. Once you are illegal, why stop there.....I just can't believe big well known "contractors", who advertise all over can trust them and put their name on illegal labor.
> 
> There are some good ones who actually follow the rules though. I should not stereotype.


*But, while we're at it...*
1) "Mexico" should be capitalized. 

2) When you write "hazard boys", I imagine you're referring to Hazzard, Kentucky? 
That's another infraction. Hazzard should be capitalized as well. 

3) And that brings us to correction #3...Hazzard itself is misspelled. 



*Grammatical errors...*
1) Contractions in formal writing twice. 

2) Punctuation outside quotation marks.

3) Incorrect punctuation.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

It was a correction in a quote from a very popular show called "Seinfeld"........but once again you got your panties in a bunch. lol How long did that post take you 2ndgen?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> It was a correction in a quote from a very popular show called "Seinfeld"........but once again you got your panties in a bunch. lol How long did that post take you 2ndgen?


Actually, Seinfeld was the first thing that came to my mind 
(when Jerry corrected Kramer).



I'm good at putting out flamers...took me about 2 minutes 
(with the use of an online grammar check).

:thumbsup:


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

A good portion of my home owners ask if I have Mexicans which I say never. After the big Monday walk out a couple years ago almost every home owner said they would hire me as long as no Mexicans were on the roof. 

Did do an install for a home owner/general contractor a few years ago. He supplied a Mexican who worked very hard but he paid him.

I have real roofing insurance and workmans comp. Together last year the totals were around $19K. Good thing most of my work was insurance or if it was new stuff I would have lost money.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

dougger222 said:


> A good portion of my home owners ask if I have Mexicans which I say never. After the big Monday walk out a couple years ago almost every home owner said they would hire me as long as no Mexicans were on the roof.


When you say "Mexican", I'm assuming that they mean "illegal immigrant". 
I'd like to believe that it's not just because they were Hispanic.

I'm sure that (like where I live) if they were Polish illegals or Russian illegals or Irish illegal immigrants they'd feel just as strongly about them being "on" their roof (question is, "if" they were European illegal immigrants, would they challenge you on their "legal status"?). 









> Did do an install for a home owner/general contractor a few years ago. He supplied a Mexican who worked very hard but he paid him.


From my experience, I'd say a solid 2/3's of them are great workers and would and "do" bring a lot to a crew. 

Let's not forget that one of the major reasons that they are hired because they are great workers and cost less to employ. 

It is the quintessential American quality of competition...offer more for less and you attract success. 

Imagine what damage they'd do to those contractors who don't do quality work if they were all made legal? They'd walk away from the companies they currently work for and start their own companies (like they do in the South West) and then not only would the face of the workforce change, but so would that of the business owners. 








> I have *real roofing insurance and workmans comp*. Together last year the totals were around $19K. Good thing most of my work was insurance or if it was new stuff I would have lost money.


Dougger, you rock! :notworthy

Your are a *REAL ROOFER*!

I have the utmost respect for you!

Last year, I carried full boat insurance (Roofers and Comp) too and it killed me bills wise, but I couldn't say that I was a Roofer without it. It's definitely harder, but I believe that fate rewards those who work to do the right thing and operate with integrity. 

Granted, in a climate where cheating is rewarded, it's difficult to walk the line of honesty, but sooner or later, it all comes back to fate. 


:thumbsup:


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## smeagol (May 13, 2008)

Try to get your workers to get their LLC. Then you just pay them straight out and they deal with taxes and unemployment. There are 5 of us and the 3 owners don't want to pay outrageous insurance when working off lifts the whole time.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

2ndGen said:


> But, because they are not allowed to work legally, they don't have to pay income taxes. They get no benefits of being an American with full fledged rights. But we get the benefit of their cheap labor.
> 
> Mark my words, if we made them all legal, we could run criminal background searches, export all the undesirables, keep the productive ones and turn 20 Million people into taxpaying citizens.
> 
> You want to talk about a Stimulus to The Economy?


How would that stimulate the economy? The money spent on everything you described would negate any stimulation.

How about we simply not worry about which ones haven't robbed, raped or stole anything and just get them all to deport themselves? 

Talk about a stimulus!

*California alone would be back in the black, health care costs would go down 5-10% right off the bat, indentity theft would go down by 80%, unemployement would drop by 2% instantly... and on and on.*


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

smeagol said:


> Try to get your workers to get their LLC. Then you just pay them straight out and they deal with taxes and unemployment. There are 5 of us and the 3 owners don't want to pay outrageous insurance when working off lifts the whole time.


You do know that is illegal in most instances, right?:sad:


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## apehangeralfy (Oct 26, 2008)

smeagol said:


> Try to get your workers to get their LLC. Then you just pay them straight out and they deal with taxes and unemployment. There are 5 of us and the 3 owners don't want to pay outrageous insurance when working off lifts the whole time.


You picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue....

This is exactly what we are talking about, hacks like you playing the sub game... Jesus Christ, you so stupid that you just not only admitted being an illegal employer but are giving advice to do the same.... :furious:

Sure everybody go get your LLC and go comp exempt, we'll pay you cash... you'll make huge bank... I'll just pay you then you pay your guys...


I bet you advertise as Licensed and Insured.... 

This makes me want to punch my screen....:shutup::shutup::shutup:



OK, maybe that sounded harsh, but... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you don't know any better. What you are going is destroying the business. How do you feel when someone cuts under your prices? Think about what your doing and the consequences. Do the right thing and stop the madness... Maybe your an employee that is being coerced into doing this? Think about what happens if you get hurt...


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

apehangeralfy said:


> You picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue....
> 
> This is exactly what we are talking about, hacks like you playing the sub game... Jesus Christ, you so stupid that you just not only admitted being an illegal employer but are giving advice to do the same.... :furious:
> 
> ...


I agree with you, but almost every company here does that. Even the big name ones. They use the same subs all the time. They even tell the customers. Some just have a few with the LLC or ICEC, the rest of the crew is just there (likely illegal aliens).
There are very few like us that do our own work.
I've even talked to guys who do this and work for contractors all over the midwest. Some get their own WC, most don't. It's a loop hole and it is killing us honest people.


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## smeagol (May 13, 2008)

Mjw all of us work all day everyday. Some line up more work at night. We are all related. 

Btw anyone can be a keyboard warrior


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> *Quid Pro Qou*
> 
> This was your challenge to me which was met.
> 
> ...




I just did. 

Read my answers to you regarding the very same sources that you listed where I extracted where they stated that they had to raise wages just to attract people to the plant in order to fill the vacated positions.

That meat plant is now losing $1,664,000. per year (if they didn't raise their prices). 

Now, multiply that type of loss by 20,000,000 illegals exported.

Now, answer the post. 

(Why do you keep diverting from it? Why do you refuse to answer it?)


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> Exactly!
> 
> I can do a job for the same price or cheaper than the big name companies that run around bidding jobs and subbing it out to illegals because I don't have the overhead they do.
> 
> They work by volume because they have a large cheap workforce that doesn't contribute to our society.


MJ, 

If we gave citizenship to those subs immediately and turned them into contributors to society, wouldn't that be better?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

2ndGen said:


> I just did.
> 
> Read my answers to you regarding the very same sources that you listed where I extracted where they stated that they had to raise wages just to attract people to the plant in order to fill the vacated positions.
> 
> ...


Nope. Nobody here could give a crap about your opinion. Prove your point the way you asked me to. Show us a legitimate source, a real world documented example that proves your point.

If not... just another blow hard, blog reading liberal. No substance.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Nope. Nobody here could give a crap about your opinion. Prove your point the way you asked me to. Show us a legitimate source, a real world documented example that proves your point.
> 
> If not... just another blow hard, blog reading liberal. No substance.


Why that's so communist of you.

Shut me down, but insist that your needs be met.

Me? Blow hard?













Around my parts, we have a saying..."No answer IS an answer."



Now, have you ever used an illegal or payed anyone off the books?

YES? 


*or* 


NO?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Uh huh. Point well taken.

... just another blow hard, blog reading liberal. No substance.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Uh huh. Point well taken.
> 
> ... just another blow hard, blog reading liberal. No substance.


Is that like someone who just insults people and curses and calls them names and refuses to actually address the topic of a thread while demanding that he be responded to?

Is that what you mean by a "blow hard"?

Are you aware that you are improperly using that word?

That blowhard does not mean what you are implying that it means?













You've spend more time and text avoiding the question posed to you than just answering it with a simple yes or now.

And I haven't had to insult you one time. 







What are you hiding by not responding to the topic posted in the thread Mike?




*America wants to know!*

:laughing:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

*Mike Finley! 

Are you now or have you ever been a member of 
those who've either hired illegals or 
have payed persons off the books?*










*Be honest!*


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

POST #5 still applies. 

Mike, don't answer either way.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)




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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

rselectric1 said:


> POST #5 still applies.
> 
> Mike, don't answer either way.











http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/archive/Birds/Chickens/Hens-Clucking-1/295607


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

:laughing:

This is an interesting debate. I am definitely leaning one way and always have. But both sides have some valid points.

I'm glad it has stayed reasonably civil though.

You boys go about your business and I will continue to watch.:thumbsup:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

rselectric1 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> This is an interesting debate. I am definitely leaning one way and always have. But both sides have some valid points.
> 
> ...


:laughing:

Ahh!

Sometimes I argue just to argue!

:laughing:

Back to the rapp!


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

OK baby momma


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Save da' drama


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

2ndGen said:


> MJ,
> 
> If we gave citizenship to those subs immediately and turned them into contributors to society, wouldn't that be better?


This would be rewarding them for their behavior. Exactly what the Dems like to do. 

Either way, they are still taking jobs from law abiding CITIZENS of this Country!

Everyone whines about them because they are competition for work and they get it by being illegal and being cheaper. A little less competition in the construction field wouldn't be a bad thing, seeing so many construction companies out of work.

Think about it. :whistling


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

smeagol said:


> Mjw all of us work all day everyday. Some line up more work at night. We are all related.
> 
> Btw anyone can be a keyboard warrior


Ya, always wished I had some brothers to help out with the work. Never had that luxury. Even my bro-in-laws are worthless. My father and I have always done all the work ourselves.


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## apehangeralfy (Oct 26, 2008)

MJW said:


> Yes, I agree!
> 
> Both the business owner who hires them and the illegals should have punishment.


 
I believe the business owner should be held more at fault and punished accordingly, not just fined but do some time... not a lot but something like 3 days per illegal... we don't want to ruin there Co. but taking them away from there comforts will change there mind...

2nd offence doubles... ect.


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## outlaw (Jan 7, 2009)

2ndGen said:


> The reason that they send their money out of the U.S. is because they aren't allowed to spend it here.
> 
> If they were allowed to buy homes and cars and to open bank accounts and to invest and to pay for health insurance, they would spend their money here. But the system doesn't allow them to contribute to the society which they are contributing their labor to.
> 
> ...


 
The reason that they don't spend their money here is that most of them don't plan to stay. They build a nest egg back in their home country so they can retire in 5 to 10 years.

I don't blame the illegals. I blame the people that hire them and then claim that it is impossible to run a business to the standards that the law dictates.


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## outlaw (Jan 7, 2009)

[SIZE=7 said:


> Now, have you ever used an illegal or payed anyone off the books?[/SIZE]
> 
> YES?
> 
> ...


 
no!


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

From Department of labor here in MN.

_In addition to penalties for failure to provide workers' compensation and unemployment insurance, employers may also be subject to civil penalties of up to $5,000 per violation for violating provisions of the ICEC laws and rules. Individuals may also be subject to civil penalties if they provide false or misleading information in an ICEC application, fail to meet all requirements of the nine-factor test to qualify as an independent contractor, allow another person to use their ICEC, misrepresent their status as an independent contractor, or alter or falsify an ICEC. _


There are laws against illegal workers here, but they are not enforced. Have called a few times to report suspicious activity, and they won't do anything unless you have proof. The guy said "We just assumed everyone would abide by the law".


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Whether a Corp, LLc, or just an ICEC holder, the nine conditions to be a sub.........

_What are the nine statutory conditions to be an independent contractor?
An individual, who holds an ICEC, is an independent contractor if he or she:

1. maintains a separate business with the individual's own office, equipment, materials, and other facilities;
2. holds or has applied for a federal employer identification number or has filed business or self employment income tax returns with the federal Internal Revenue Service if the person has performed services in the previous year for which the individual is seeking the independent contractor exemption certificate;
3. operates under contracts to perform specific services for specific amounts of money and under which the individual controls the means of performing the services;
4. incurs the main expenses related to the service that the individual performs under contract;
5. is responsible for the satisfactory completion of services that the individual contracts to perform and is liable for a failure to complete the service;
6. receives compensation for service performed under a contract on a commission or per-job or competitive bid basis and not on any other basis;
7. may realize a profit or suffer a loss under contracts to perform service;
8. has continuing or recurring business liabilities or obligations;
9. the success or failure of the individual's business depends on the relationship of business receipts to expenditures.
_


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I think you both make good points. Good conversation. I do however, dont understand how anyone can think prices wouldnt go up if the labor was more. I am not talking construction either. Can anyone explain how that would actually happen?


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## smeagol (May 13, 2008)

I can't tell you how, but after a storm you would not see expensive salesman's trucks driving around only to be followed a week later by 8 hispanics packed into a 1984 ford econoline:thumbsup:

Not one hispanic crew did anything with the chimney flashing, and there were a lot of reused roof boots


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Thats true smeagol but like I said, not talking construction. If you do want to talk construction and roofing we can. 

First off I do not condone the use of illegals and I report them when I know for a fact a company has illegals working for them. It makes my job harder because I have to pay more to afford good labor. Thus to my point, is it impossible to keep your low prices the same when you have an expensive work force for you. On certain occasions I get asked why my price is what it is. I then have to explain that I have an all legal, english speaking work force who does very good quality work and for that quality work and peace of mind factor, I have to pay them well. Sometimes I do not get the job because of the price and other times I do because the homeowners like know they will be able to communicate in english with any employees at any given time.

Now, I could go in there with an illegal crew of any decent and because they are illegal, I do not have to worry about paying them cheaply. Considering they would be paid cheaper than any legal citizen I can save money on labor, thus save money for the home owner while keeping my profit margin the same.

Lets say you only pay your labor 60 dollars an hour. Well you want to make an extra 20 dollars an hour on top of that so you charge 80. Well now you have all legal employees and you have to pay them 75 an hour total. Are you still going to charge homeowners 80 an hour and decrease your profit by 75%? I doubt it.


One of our biggest competitors has illegals do the work for them and even did my neighbors three houses down from me . 31 Sq, 9 pitch, 3 large dormers. Tear off and re roof and 6 hour laters they were done. Guess what, the homeowner saved 2500 dollars using them over us but has come over to ask me to help fix the problems hes having with it. Point is illegals are always going to be around. If the Govt wanted them gone bad enough, they would be gone. Until contractors quit hiring illegals, until homeowners quit hiring contractors with illegal work forces, there is nothing honest guys can do.

And yes, being dishonest in this business gets you ahead. Thats why its hard for us 5% of honest contractors to do well. :sad:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I think you both make good points. Good conversation. I do however, dont understand how anyone can think prices wouldnt go up if the labor was more. I am not talking construction either. Can anyone explain how that would actually happen?


Prices would go up, they would have to. The question is how much?

Those people who want to destroy our country and say the economy can't work without illegals try to make it sound like prices would rise so high the world would come to an end.

The reality is as I showed in the example of the Swift meat packing plants, prices for meat rose 3-5% after the illegals were replaced. That to me as an American who loves his country is a small price to pay - an extra 20 cents for hamburger to know American citizens have a job. I'll gladly pay that. You have to understand: Most of the savings that illegals produce goes to the company as profits. 

The liberal, self-loathing haters of our country have an whole set of half-truths they try to promote as facts to futher their agenda. 

Ever notice how they even try to change the language to confuse the issue? They substitute the words "immigrant" for illegal immigrant" all the time.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Mike, I remembered reading this article a year ago and just found it.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.co...ThrewOutAllTheIllegalImmigrants.aspx?page=all

True it is sort of biased but it does give a good idea of why it may actually not be as great of an idea as we all want it to be.


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## MrRoofer (Sep 21, 2008)

It happens. Most illegals here I find are from the US. Although increasingly they are coming from eastern Europe, but I don't think most people mind, as they are white. The legal imported Phillipino's do good for cheap while they are here, then when they are done with or things slow down, they get sent back. Too bad, they are the best workers of the lot.

The very nature of this trade (ie LABOUR INTENSIVE) makes it virtually impossible for this NOT to happen. There ain't too many honest, white, educated, law abiding folk around here willing to do the dirty jobs. It is beneath them, and indeed, only stupid people are willing to swing a hammer, or deal first hand with those that do. Labour is also highly profitable, so why would any educated individual want to go make a regular living on the tools when they can make even more off of the people on the tools. This is where this kind of business has been headed for a while now. I would also hazard a guess that at least a third of the roofers I have run into here cannot or will not get a bank account. A good chunk of them have criminal records as it is, and most are genereally undesireables in society, so they end up with the labour jobs .

Ever collected an allowance, hey guess what, you're off the books.

Ever shovelled a sidewalk as a kid? cut somebodies lawn as a kid? Again, off the books, illegal.

Ever been a hard working labourer for twenty years with nothing to show for it, now that is legal. Not advisable mind you, the cost to your health is immeasurable, and should be illegal.

Ever worked in a foreign country??? If you have, you probably have a much better understanding of the situation as a whole as opposed to those who never have. If it was me in their shoes, I would most certainly do the same. Hmm pesos over dollars, hard decision, isn't it. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it is never as easy as black or white either.

People are people, and they are going to do what they are going to do. Would they rather pay some unknown character in a governement office x amount of dollars everyday or would they rather take that money and better their own lives? Is it wrong for people to want and strive for a better way of life? They are always going to go where the money is, why?...you tell me.


I dunno, most of that is moot, as we have become a white collar society, preaching the letter of the law without realizing the negative effect that is havin on our own everday lives. So many new laws, rules and regulations everyday it is impossible to keep up. You have to be a damn lawyer now with everything you touch your pencil to, there is so much liability and BS involved. To that end we have become dangerously specialized, resulting in a very square group of individuals who can do one thing and one thing only.

Again, this is a capitalist, free market society. Not utopia. We are also a population that is expanding exponentially. Put the two together and you have a big business corporate environment that has to be to meet the needs of a supersized society. Big business has big lawyers that have nothing better to do than find all the loopholes to make things even more profitable. *Cheap labour = big profit, welcome to ideallist, capitalist America* ( I use the term America loosely, fundamentally I think Canucks are as American as apple pie, difference being the ice cream on top* :cheesygri* ). So, to make all the good doing _law abiding_ (as if such a thing really does exist, let's face it, somewhere along the line you will be breaking some sort of law somewhere, intended or otherwise, there are just too many to get around  ) folks happy again what we are talking about for a solution is wiping out a good chunk of the human population, so we can get back to the good ol days. Ridiculous tangent I realize, but not without its' plause.

As things continue to decline (as I believe they are), price undercuts will continue. Ideally there should be a standard set of prices and laws people should adhere to, but at the end of the day, life is less than ideal, rather, it is real. No government or group of people in history have been able to keep illegals out of any country or any area, with committing total genocide, so get used to it, and even better, embrace it, and make it work for you, because it isn't going to change!!! I would think history has proven that. 


To answer the question, yes. It was the only way I could reallistically start my business (having abosultely nothing to start with except me myself and I and those two pennies I had saved up from the lemonade stand , no bank or person in the world would have helped me with 0 colatteral, such was life fresh outtta highschool ). However I did fold that business as the last guy I ended up getting to work for me (legally) I had to pick up at the bar, and drop off at the bar, such was and is the state of skilled sloped roofers here. At this stage of the game however, No, I cannot afford the headache, and I do not think anyone should. However, I do have to respect an individual willing to take a risk to make it fly, it does indeed take a lot of balls, for without most roofing work would not get done. It is a high risk trade afterall.

Flame on.


----------



## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

outlaw said:


> *no!*


:laughing:

Good Boy! 

:thumbsup:


----------



## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

outlaw said:


> The reason that they don't spend their money here is that most of them don't plan to stay. They build a nest egg back in their home country so they can retire in 5 to 10 years.
> 
> I don't blame the illegals. I blame the people that hire them and then claim that it is impossible to run a business to the standards that the law dictates.


I also blame the government that allowed them in and gave them sanctuary.

Of the illegals that I have known, 100% of them would stay and invest in America if America would let them. They don't want to come here and work and not have any rights or benefits of an American. 

They, like the rest of the world (generally speaking) want to become Americans.

Like I said, we allow them in, give them sanctuary, don't deport them, allow them to work, but won't give them citizenship?

Who's wrong there?

Those "in control"...the government and the politicians.

Who would deny a person citizenship if we needed their services.

Remember, in the 90's, nobody complained about them as much because times were good, but when times are bad, their one of the first to get the brunt of it. 

Facts is, unless you are 100% Native American, everybody is here illegally.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> This would be rewarding them for their behavior. Exactly what the Dems like to do.


Democrats never gave them Amnesty (The Republicans did that under Reagan).

When The Republicans had the Supreme Court, The Senate, The Congress AND The Presidency, they did nothing to deport illegals, so don't make this a Dem VS Repub debate. 





> Either way, they are still taking jobs from law abiding CITIZENS of this Country!


They are being allowed to do this "by" this country.

If it's happening, it's because the majority of the country wants it because nobody voted politicians in who would do anything about it. 

What you're saying is true, but if the Americans could compete with them, the illegals couldn't get the jobs. Americans just have to compete better against illegals. Then, Americans would get the jobs. 





> Everyone whines about them because they are competition for work and they get it by being illegal and being cheaper. A little less competition in the construction field wouldn't be a bad thing, seeing so many construction companies out of work.
> 
> Think about it. :whistling


:laughing:

I'd rather keep the good illegals and get rid of the bad contractors!


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> Ya, always wished I had some brothers to help out with the work. Never had that luxury. Even my bro-in-laws are worthless. My father and I have always done all the work ourselves.


Same deal here MJ. I was the only one of my brothers who stayed on Roofs while the other went on to other things.

Shame though...my big brothers could kick my arse 10X around the roof. 
They rocked. 

I snagged a 20sq flat (cold-applied SBS) and left my brother there with a helper at 8 in the morning. Came back with lunch for him at 11:30 and he was bringing down the trash! Knocked it out in 3 hours. Gave him a full day's pay ($200.) plus a tip ($100.) and sent him home!


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

apehangeralfy said:


> I believe the business owner should be held more at fault and punished accordingly, not just fined but do some time... not a lot but something like 3 days per illegal... we don't want to ruin there Co. but taking them away from there comforts will change there mind...
> 
> 2nd offence doubles... ect.


I knew one company that would just pay the fine and keep the illegals. 

They were saving so much on labor, that it was actually cheaper to keep them and pay the fines. And their the biggest Roofing/Siding/Window company locally.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MJW said:


> There are laws against illegal workers here, but they are not enforced. Have called a few times to report suspicious activity, and they won't do anything unless you have proof. The guy said "We just assumed everyone would abide by the law".


And that "F-ing" sucks doesn't it MJ?

The Laws aren't enforced! 

:furious:

I tell you...everybody in power wants them here. 
Screw the working class guy!

The Politicians, The Government, The Corporations, Big Business...they want them here. They save tons on it even if we (on the bottom end) pay for it.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Thats true smeagol but like I said, not talking construction. If you do want to talk construction and roofing we can.
> 
> First off I do not condone the use of illegals and I report them when I know for a fact a company has illegals working for them. It makes my job harder because I have to pay more to afford good labor. Thus to my point, is it impossible to keep your low prices the same when you have an expensive work force for you. On certain occasions I get asked why my price is what it is. I then have to explain that I have an all legal, english speaking work force who does very good quality work and for that quality work and peace of mind factor, I have to pay them well. Sometimes I do not get the job because of the price and other times I do because the homeowners like know they will be able to communicate in english with any employees at any given time.
> 
> ...


There's a link posted here where a meat plant (I believe) was raided. 

They then had to raise wages $2.05/hr to attract enough people to fill the positions $9.50/hr. They lost $1,664,000.00 that year. But, over the 20 years that they had the illegals there without legitimate working conditions and/or raises, they made something like $33 MILLION dollars more than had they used American workers.

And your post is pretty much on point on all counts.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Mike, I remembered reading this article a year ago and just found it.
> 
> http://articles.moneycentral.msn.co...ThrewOutAllTheIllegalImmigrants.aspx?page=all
> 
> True it is sort of biased but it does give a good idea of why it may actually not be as great of an idea as we all want it to be.


I've seen that before too.

Conjecture is one thing but the bottom line is -

America and our economy existed before there were illegals in it. It has existed with illegals in it and it would exist again without them.

The arguement that our economy can't exist without them is illogical at best and political at worst where Democrats want them as a voting block.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

MrRoofer said:


> It happens. Most illegals here I find are from the US. Although increasingly they are coming from eastern Europe, but I don't think most people mind, as they are white. The legal imported Phillipino's do good for cheap while they are here, then when they are done with or things slow down, they get sent back. Too bad, they are the best workers of the lot.
> 
> The very nature of this trade (ie LABOUR INTENSIVE) makes it virtually impossible for this NOT to happen. There ain't too many honest, white, educated, law abiding folk around here willing to do the dirty jobs. It is beneath them, and indeed, only stupid people are willing to swing a hammer, or deal first hand with those that do. Labour is also highly profitable, so why would any educated individual want to go make a regular living on the tools when they can make even more off of the people on the tools. This is where this kind of business has been headed for a while now. I would also hazard a guess that at least a third of the roofers I have run into here cannot or will not get a bank account. A good chunk of them have criminal records as it is, and most are genereally undesireables in society, so they end up with the labour jobs .
> 
> ...



:thumbsup:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> I've seen that before too.


From one of the article's contributors (who has a show on tv):


> Construction (12%):
> If it looks bad now, imagine an economy where homebuilding is really crushed, says Rick Montelongo, owner of a building and remodeling company in San Antonio. "It would be a huge blow," he says. Workers' wages, which make up 30% of the cost of building a home, would have to rise "substantially," he says. That would make it more expensive to build new homes, resulting in even fewer sales for an industry already experiencing a sharp downturn.


 


> America and our economy existed before there were illegals in it. It has existed with illegals in it and it would exist again without them.


Nobody denies that, but in what "state" of existence would it be in? 

200 years of America's prosperity came from the free labor of millions of Africans that they kidnapped and put into slavery. 

From there until now, it's been using immigrants (both legal and illegal) for cheap labor (which is okay provided you give them their benefits and rights). 






> The arguement that our economy can't exist without them is illogical at best and political at worst where Democrats want them as a voting block


That is a very stupid argument (one no one here brought up or even introduced). Of course our economy will live on. The only difference is that we will have to pay more for the jobs we pay illegals to do now, plus give benefits to those who replace them (something illegals aren't getting now). Then, when wages go up, the business owners aren't going to suck that up, they'll pass that cost on to others.

Would you not pass that cost on to the customer if The Government forced you to double the salary of your employees (unless that is, you use subs)? 

Or are you making so much profit now that you can afford to pay their raises out of your end?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Prices would go up, they would have to. The question is how much?


Illegals get 1/2 of what an American gets to perform the same job.

Do the math. 



> Those people who want to destroy our country and say the economy can't work without illegals try to make it sound like prices would rise so high the world would come to an end.


Who's crazier, the nutjobs or the sane people who even pay attention to the nutjobs?

Why even bother worrying about what nutjobs think?

They're not worth your blood pressure going up (that is, unless you like to listen to them?). 

Of course the economy will work without illegals. 

Greedy Contractors and Corporations and Businessmen will just have to pay "fair living wages" from now on (double what illegals earn now). 

They'll pass that cost on to the consumer, sales will slow. 

Economics 101.








> The reality is as I showed in the example of the Swift meat packing plants, prices for meat rose 3-5% after the illegals were replaced. That to me as an American who loves his country is a small price to pay - an extra 20 cents for hamburger to know American citizens have a job. I'll gladly pay that. You have to understand: Most of the savings that illegals produce goes to the company as profits.


That same example showed how much the company was saving by using them. It's the greed of the Businessmen and the Consumer that keeps illegals here. If they had no opportunity here, they wouldn't risk their lives to come here.

If a horse is thirsty and you have a lake and it is not fenced in properly, who's fault is it that the horse has access to your pond? 

AND I'd gladly pay a premium to keep American workers working! 

I only buy AMERICAN cars and as many products that are "Made In America" as I can (it is my first consideration when I shop for things). 





> The liberal, self-loathing haters of our country have an whole set of half-truths they try to promote as facts to futher their agenda.



Again, what was the name of the President that gave illegals Amnesty?

Which Presidential Candidate was the co-author The McCain-Kennedy Immigration Reform Bill which wanted Amnesty for illegals? 

Save the division for a political argument. 

When it comes to illegal immigration and when Republicans had all the power in the world to stop it (Senate/Congress/Supreme Court/Presidency), they didn't stop it. 

At least with the Dems, you don't hear 1 story and get another. Of course they want as many illegals in here as possible. It would explode their voting block. But it won't matter anyway. Illegals or not, the Dems and Independents are outnumbering any other party 2:1 these days. 

It's too late now. Even if every illegal was deported, the population shift is leaning Democratic and unless non-Democrats begin to out produce Democrats, it's a wrap for them. 

By 2034, this country will be overwhelmingly Democratic (that's if the current demographics continue in the direction they're going) and we all know how them Dems lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvve to help people from 3rd world countries have a better life. 






> Ever notice how they even try to change the language to confuse the issue? They substitute the words "immigrant" for illegal immigrant" all the time.


:lol:

That drives me up the wall when I hear them say that!

I'm like WTF? They're ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, not "immigrants"! 

Frickin' Loons!

I think that's what p's people off most about them.
They try to insult a common man's intelligence.
Pencilneck Geeks that they are. 

:lol:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

The construction industry is one of,if not the largest employer,of IA's.If the laws where just enforced and illegals deported and contractors that hire them fined it would only be good for the industry.It would level the playing field.And it would put back to work many Americans.

Prices would not go up....Legit contractors set the ceiling for price so that would not change.Oh sure,it will take some $$$ out of the pockets of the bastards that have been using them all this time.They will now have to figure out how to run a business on the up and up.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

BattleRidge said:


> High school kids work for that all the time here. 7.50 an hour? The mexis here make more then that. I like how you slap everyones back here though to gain as much support for your tiff.


Thanks dude!

:thumbsup:






> End point is post the quote that says that you can pay more for labor, charge the same amount and profit the same. Nobody said that.


Uh, yeah. Somebody here did. They said that a "real" business man would be able to accomplish that. I know, I know...sounds stupid, but it was posted here. You just have to read the thread to find it. 






> Like a true liberal you leftout integral parts of what was said. Such as a meat packing plant. 33 MILLIONS DOLLARS!!! Some of these big companies literally fart that in a day. Labor isnt always the biggest portion of a product either. So there are lots of jobs that it hardly makes a difference to the consumer. Its illegal, the same is cheating. So why have a wight and measures bureau too? They could sell you like 3/4s of a pound and say its a pound. Its ok though because the companys making more money now.


No matter how you slice it, facts are facts. 

There are only two reasons that companies risk getting in trouble with the Federal Government in hiring illegals:

1) To save on labor costs

2) Illegals will do undesirable jobs for "less" money than American citizens will out of desperation.

[That meat packing plant proved this point]




> I have issues right now. How do you get rid of an immigrant


Go around asking every single American for proof that they are citizens and then deport those that cannot prove that they are citizens. 

Simple.

Granted, it will cost far more to do that than to just leave them, but if people are really bent on deporting every illegal, then that's the price that has to be paid. 

Some people just overcomplicate things. 

We could put a man on the moon, we can't stop illegals from entering the country?

:blink:





> If you call INS they dontjust come take them away.You have to file a petition and your reason cant be because they are hispanic. Its BS. We dont need them. If you run mexican you should be arrested and imprisoned. The purpose of a punishment for a crime is so people dont do it again. Its blatant if you hire someone you have no regard for the law. If you get caught you should be put out of business, period. Then they will have to be legalized, and paid a decent rate which would aide in americans getting more jobs. I rarely hire people because they are cheap, I hire people because they are good.



EXACTLY!

Except for one thing, not just Mexicans, but Irish, Ukrainians, Polish, African, Asian, Middle Eastern, Russians, etc...


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Tinstaafl said:


> This has been entertaining for the most part, but... why don't you guys just get a room? :whistling


:laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

NormW said:


> :001_huh: How can you label someone a "liberal" for claiming if you get rid of illegal immigrants, wages would go up?
> 
> Simple fact, Illegals are "exploited". There are benefits to us, as well as costs. Its a double edge sword, that every american is benefiting from, and paying for. Has nothing to do with politics, just human nature.


Okay let's stick to the facts. Okay?

#1 nobody was labeled a liberal for claiming if you get rid of illegal immigrants wages would go up.

Somebody was labeled a liberal for posting 10,000 words of liberal ideology. And the part about wages going up isn't even part of it, it was more specifically that the American economy can't function without illegals that it would be destroyed here is the exact quote -



2ndGen said:


> *Because if they deported themselves, the economy of this country would collapse.*


#2 Every American is NOT benefiting from illegals. Let's get this straight - an American who gets a head of lettuce for 3 cents less because of illegals is not benefiting from illegals when the baggage that goes along with that is our country is sitting with 10% unemployment, illegals are filling jobs that Americans would have, illegals are putting HUGE strains on publicly funded programs and private businesses, from our police forces to our hospitals to our schools. Illegals are destorying the VERY INDUSTRY YOU MAKE YOUR LIVING IN - CONSTRUCTION. Where are the young replacements? When I was a kid working construction was one of the highest paying jobs you could have without a college education. Now why would a young kid go be a drywaller and work next to 10 illegals making no money, just so the owner can get rich?

Who is actually benefiting from illegals? - The answer is THE INDIVIDUAL BUSINESS OWNER WHO EMPLOYS THEM, skirts taxes, wages, overtime, benefits ect... and puts that money in their POCKETS AS PROFIT.

NOT every American. I don't get any benefit from a 3 cent cheaper peach, not when my country is being F&*ked over for the sake of that farmer pocketing more money or the concrete contractor pocketing more money.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

*Why is illegal immigration allowed in the United States of America?*


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## smeagol (May 13, 2008)

and don't let me even start on those damn eskimos:no:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

smeagol said:


> and don't let me even start on those damn eskimos:no:


:laughing:


----------



## NormW (Jun 4, 2009)

Thanks for setting me straight MF...

There was 140 somethin posts, I didnt read them all. So I wasnt sure when the topic got politicized. Immigration is hard enough, when we mix it with politics, its a black hole.

Illegal Immigrants are like drugs, so long as there is a demand, they will come. Up where I live, theyre around, but I wouldnt call it competition... yet.. Ive only been on one job, where they where involved. They were doing demo work. Seemed as if they were looking for a promotion, I had to keep chasing them off my chop saw... I remember complaining to the GC. The HO actually hired them, they worked for her landscaper.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

NormW said:


> Thanks for setting me straight MF...
> 
> There was 140 somethin posts, I didnt read them all. So I wasnt sure when the topic got politicized. Immigration is hard enough, when we mix it with politics, its a black hole.


Yep.

A person's political background has nothing to do with illegal immigration. 

Blaming liberals or Democrats can't be applied here.

Especially since it was a Republican President that gave them amnesty and since it was The Republican Party that chose as their candidate the man who co-sponsored the McCain-Kennedy act that would've given them amnesty too.

And, when Republicans held The Supreme Court/Senate/Congress/Presidency, they did nothing to deport all the illegals. Under Republicans, worksite arrests dropped 200% and continued to fall. His brother married a Mexican so they're Mexican sympathizers. 



(And you do realize that you are addressing the same person who began to hurl the political titles and insinuations...right Norm? Post #56 "Your calculator is broken, or perhaps it only does Democrat math."  )










> Illegal Immigrants are like drugs, so long as there is a demand, they will come.


Exactly. If there was no demand, they wouldn't be up here. 

What the majority of Americans want, the majority of Americans get. 

Until America decides to stop illegal immigration by electing politicians that will fight not only to enforce current laws, but to create newer stronger laws to stop illegal immigration, nothing will change. 

That's why I love this country!

MAJORITY RULES!












> Up where I live, theyre around, but I wouldnt call it competition... yet..


That's a smart way to look at it. 



Now, imagine if all the illegals were immediately deported from one day to the next and all those positions were "left behind" unfilled. 

Now, try to fill them. 

What would happen to the economy between the time that they were taken away until the time that the newer workforce was trained up to their level?

How much productivity would be lost in that time? 

How much would wages go up (someone here posted an article where wages HAD TO be raised almost 30% in order to attract Americans to fill those spots left behind by the vacancies of the illegals)?

How much would prices go up for services and goods with 30% wage increases across the spectrum of industries that thrive on the use of illegal labor? 

Another article posted to counter this argument literally has someone stating these same concerns. It's as if the articles were posted without being read. 

When costs go up, prices go up. 
When prices go up, sales go down. 
When sales go down, people get laid off. 
Especially in this economy. 

Remember, the good old days of the 90's are gone.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

2ndGen said:


> *Why is illegal immigration allowed in the United States of America?*


Because Democrats want them here as a voting base.

By the way have you seen the new rough draft of Obama's immigration legislation that they are working on?

You could have wrote it or they could have copied it off your writings.

You got that in common with em.:thumbsup:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Because Democrats want them here as a voting base.


So then, America, knowing the Democrats' stance on illegal immigration, chose them anyway.

What does that say about America's views on illegal immigration if they chose a pro-amnesty party (not that it would make a difference had they chosen McCain since he is the co-sponsor of an amnesty bill himself)?



Why didn't the Conservatives do anything about it when they had complete control of The Senate/The Congress/The Supreme Court and The Presidency of The United States for 6 full years? 







> By the way have you seen the new rough draft of Obama's immigration legislation that they are working on?
> 
> You could have wrote it or they could have copied it off your writings.
> 
> You got that in common with em.:thumbsup:


Well, considering that he is far more liked than our last President (by an overwhelming majority of The American People), thank you. In fact, he has a higher approval rating than the percentage that actually voted for him so he's doing even better today than he did when The American People elected him to be President of The United States! 

Obama!
Obama!
Obama!

:thumbsup:

Barack Akbar!
Barack Akbar!
Barack Akbar!


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

It says enough Americans (yourself included) voted for a guy who basically promised you that he'd take care of everything for you by taxing everybody else. Problem is now some of those people thinking he was going to be taxing anybody but them have figured out they are now part of the everybody else he was talking about.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> It says enough Americans (yourself included) voted for a guy who basically promised you that he'd take care of everything for you by taxing everybody else. Problem is now some of those people thinking he was going to be taxing anybody but them have figured out they are now part of the everybody else he was talking about.



fftopic:

Why didn't the Conservatives deport all illegals when they had complete control of The Senate/The Congress/The Supreme Court and The Presidency of The United States for 6 full years?


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

2ndGen said:


> fftopic:
> 
> Why didn't the Conservatives deport all illegals when they had complete control of The Senate/The Congress/The Supreme Court and The Presidency of The United States for 6 full years?


 
Mike I will take this one.

Conservatives were not in control. Republicans were. See how easy if you ask dumb questions?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Framer53 said:


> Mike I will take this one.
> 
> Conservatives were not in control. Republicans were. See how easy if you ask dumb questions?














Oh yeah, I forgot...the're having a civil war now and getting all "mavericky"! 

:laughing:

Every Conservative that's messed up is no longer a Conservative "today".
But when they had full control of The Senate/Congress/Supreme Court & The Presidency, they "were" Conservatives (even if today, some would try to disassociate themselves from them).

*Conservatives Line Up for Bush, the CPAC Rock Star*
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/news-de...ives-line-up-for-bush-the-cpac-rock-star.html

What was it that they called themselves? 

"Compassionate Conservatives", right? 

Okay...why didn't REPUBLICANS deport all illegals when they had complete control of The Senate/The Congress/The Supreme Court and The Presidency of The United States for 6 full years?

[Since there was no Conservative Party in control back then...
I guess, there is no Liberal Party in control today? :lol: ]


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## NormW (Jun 4, 2009)

Uhm, Mike...

Illegal immigrants can't vote... 'cause they are illegal... 

Now if your talking about "legal" immigrants, your partially right. But, dinos are courting them as much as libs,... I can name swing states, where they are critical.


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

2ndGen said:


> ... Why didn't the Conservatives do anything about it when they had complete control of The Senate/The Congress/The Supreme Court and The Presidency of The United States for 6 full years?


They sort of tried, but it went nowhere unfortunately - please remember that all Republicans are not "conservatives" just like all Democrats are not "liberals"
Hopefully the same fate will happen with the current health care bill, which most American's do not support (according to the polls)

End point is post the quote that says that you can pay more for labor, charge the same amount and profit the same. Nobody said that. 


> > End point is post the quote that says that you can pay more for labor, charge the same amount and profit the same. Nobody said that.
> 
> 
> Uh, yeah. Somebody here did. They said that a "real" business man would be able to accomplish that. I know, I know...sounds stupid, but it was posted here. You just have to read the thread to find it.


No, that is not what I said & I clarified it for you in a later post - if the business man has to pay more for his product he will charge more, simple economics... Now in some cases he may not, but he may sell more in bulk & still make the same amount of profit


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

NormW said:


> Uhm, Mike...
> 
> Illegal immigrants can't vote... 'cause they are illegal...
> 
> Now if your talking about "legal" immigrants, your partially right. But, dinos are courting them as much as libs,... I can name swing states, where they are critical.



There's going to be a 3rd Party next election (possibly Independence Party) that will syphon off the "reasonable" Blue Dog Democrats and Moderate Republicans. It will be interesting. 

And "center center" America will have a big impact. 

I'll probably roll with them. 

The Left Wing Loons and the Radical Right Wing Tea Baggers are way off the reservation for me. 

I hope a "common sense" consensus builds after America is through dividing itself and all the Wing Nuts will be brushed aside so that we can get back to work on rebuilding America and not being diverted by Radical Extremism.


----------



## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

SLSTech said:


> They sort of tried, but it went nowhere unfortunately - please remember that all Republicans are not "conservatives" just like all Democrats are not "liberals"


Thank you for noting that SLS. I knew that. I just wanted to get someone with "reason" to also point that out. 

:thumbsup:






> Hopefully the same fate will happen with the current health care bill, which most American's do not support (according to the polls)


Well, thers is no "Bill" per say. There are just proposals that will all be combined and hopefully, the best of them will be brought together to form one good bill.

Almost everybody wants Reform. 
It's been 100 years in the making. 
There just is no point to waiting anymore. 
Something has to get passed at least to get us moving away from the impending catastrophe that awaits us if we don't act. 

Tell you one thing, Abortion will kill it. I hope to Gosh that The Stupac Ammendment holds. There is no way that it will pass if it's taken out.

America (Thank God!) is now over* 51%* Pro-Life! Finally! 








> No, that is not what I said & I clarified it for you in a later post - if the business man has to pay more for his product he will charge more, simple economics... Now in some cases he may not, but he may sell more in bulk & still make the same amount of profit


Then I'm sorry for misunderstanding & misrepresenting you.
I give you my word I didn't do it purposefully. 

I don't drink, but here (mine will have Pepsi in it  )...


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

NormW said:


> Hum, Mike...
> 
> Illegal immigrants can't vote... 'cause they are illegal...
> 
> Now if your talking about "legal" immigrants, your partially right. But, dinos are courting them as much as libs,... I can name swing states, where they are critical.


When Obama grants them amnesty and a super quick path to citizen ship (which is part of the new legislation) they sure as hell are eligible to vote.

Acorn didn't even need real live human beings to vote, as I recall they were able to sign up Mickey Mouse and Daffy Duck more than a few hundred times.


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