# No paper under shingles?



## PatChap (Jun 1, 2012)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Just to chime in, I've never had a problem installing or working with 15# felt. In fact, seems like its been used for decades without issues.
> 
> Issues will occur with tear offs in the future between the massive amounts of IW people use and the synthetics, which will mark tear offs difficult.


I tore off a 3 or 4 year old roof that had some sort of synthetic on it, was being replaced during an exterior colour makeover. 
We needed to carry a straight blade at all times to cut it, gets stuck in rippers really easily, wont come apart. Not really difficult, more inconvenient. 
Hopefully it breaks down a bit under shingles over the years.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Tom Struble said:


> well..who cares about that?
> 
> you do realize it's because it's tested as an assembly..not necessarily the paper does anything special


I know - the only thing the paper does that's special is get FD signoff:blink:


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

I haven't used tar paper for years.

synthetic is the war to go for sure. :thumbsup:


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## muskoka guy (Nov 16, 2013)

Have striped and reshingled many roofs. Most didn't have complete tar paper. Its only required for code to have two rows for eave protection. That's what most have here in Muskoka. Most new roofs we do have ice and water shield in any problem areas, some entirely. Regular roofs with no valleys and a decent pitch don't get paper, just the eave protection rows. If there is a threat of rain on a reroof job, we might paper the whole house. We try not reshingle houses if there is a threat of rain.


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## DFW Roofing (Mar 4, 2011)

Manufacturers require it. Not using felt means you are installing roofs without manufacturer's warranties. You are opening yourself up to a huge amount of liability by not adding felt.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

:blink:why?cause the shingles are junk?:blink:


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## DFW Roofing (Mar 4, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> :blink:why?cause the shingles are junk?:blink:


Not sure if you are replying to my post, but if so it is 100% irrelevant. If the manufacturer requires it to have a warranty on the product it is mandatory. 

If you are a business owner, it is very foolish to stick your neck out and not follow manufacturer's instructions.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

DFW Roofing said:


> Not sure if you are replying to my post, but if so it is 100% irrelevant. If the manufacturer requires it to have a warranty on the product it is mandatory.
> 
> If you are a business owner, it is very foolish to stick your neck out and not follow manufacturer's instructions.


Where does it say that?


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## DFW Roofing (Mar 4, 2011)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Where does it say that?


Rather than look at dozens of manufacturers it is required by the IRC which is applicable to 99% of the US & Canada (edit Canada has a separate code but is similar)

this is from 2009 and there is now a 2012 - it is a requirement 

R905.2.7 Underlayment application. For roof slopes from
two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up
to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope),
underlayment shall be two layers applied in the following
manner. Apply a 19-inch (483 mm) strip of underlayment felt
parallel to and starting at the eaves, fastened sufficiently to
hold in place. Starting at the eave, apply 36-inch-wide (914
mm) sheets of underlayment, overlapping successive sheets
19 inches (483 mm), and fastened sufficiently to hold in
place. Distortions in the underlayment shall not interfere with
the ability of the shingles to seal. For roof slopes of four units
vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope) or greater,
underlayment shall be one layer applied in the following
manner. Underlayment shall be applied shingle fashion, parallel
to and starting from the eave and lapped 2 inches (51
mm), fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Distortions in the
underlayment shall not interfere with the ability of the shingles
to seal. End laps shall be offset by 6 feet (1829 mm).


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## PatChap (Jun 1, 2012)

Since its not code to have underlayment on the entire roofs here, our bundle wrappers are worded differently then yours as well.

The word required isn't in the underlayment section, even on the american brands.


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## DFW Roofing (Mar 4, 2011)

PatChap said:


> Since its not code to have underlayment on the entire roofs here, our bundle wrappers are worded differently then yours as well.
> 
> The word required isn't in the underlayment section, even on the american brands.


Since my previous post If have read a few instructions and can see some ambiguity. 

However; following local codes are also on the instructions. At the end of the day building code rules and the International Residential Code requires it and that code very widely followed in the US. Where the IRC does not apply often the IBC does apply, which has almost identical language as the IRC.


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## PatChap (Jun 1, 2012)

9.26.5. Eave Protection for Shingles and Shakes

9.26.5.1. Required Eave Protection
(1) Except as provided in Sentence (2), eave protection shall be provided on shingle, shake or tile roofs, extending from the edge of the roof a minimum of 900 mm up the roof slope to a line not less than 300 mm inside the inner face of the exterior wall.
(2) Eave protection is not required,
(a) over unheated garages, carports and porches,
(b) where the roof overhang exceeds 900 mm measured along the roof slope from the edge of the roof to the inner face of the exterior wall,
(c) on roofs of asphalt shingles installed in accordance with Subsection 9.26.8.,
(d) on roofs with slopes of 1 in 1.5 or greater, or
(e) in regions with 3 500 or fewer degree-days

this is the Ontario wording on the issue. We use the Ontario building code here.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

DFW Roofing said:


> Since my previous post If have read a few instructions and can see some ambiguity.
> 
> However; following local codes are also on the instructions. At the end of the day building code rules and the International Residential Code requires it and that code very widely followed in the US. Where the IRC does not apply often the IBC does apply, which has almost identical language as the IRC.


soo..maybe not as irrelevant as we thought now..


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## Onarooftop (May 19, 2008)

9.26.5.1. This is actually just the code for the eaves.

9.26.6 
is the actual code for Ontario - underlayment for shingles:


9.26.6. Underlay Beneath Shingles

9.26.6.1. Materials

(1) Except as required in Sentence (2), when underlay is used beneath shingles, it shall be,

(a) asphalt-saturated sheathing paper weighing not less than 0.195 kg/m�, or

(b) No. 15 plain or perforated asphalt-saturated felt.

(2) Underlay used beneath wood shingles shall be breather type.

9.26.6.2. Installation

(1) When used with shingles, underlay shall be installed parallel to the eaves with head and end lap of not less than 50 mm.

(2) The top edge of each strip referred to in Sentence (1) shall be fastened with sufficient roofing nails to hold it in place until the shingles are applied.

(3) The underlay referred to in Sentence (1) shall overlap the eave protection by not less than 100 mm.


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## PatChap (Jun 1, 2012)

Onarooftop said:


> 9.26.5.1. This is actually just the code for the eaves.
> 
> 9.26.6
> is the actual code for Ontario - underlayment for shingles:
> ...


Did you read that before you posted it or just assumed it says what you think it does?

When we use underlay under shingles it's always at least #15 felt....
Canada is not America, things can be significantly different.


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## hootrod351 (Jul 3, 2013)

the paper in mandatory in some areas, and not in others. put down paper then drive 10,000 nails threw it. it helps if some shingles get blown off so its worth it. but doesnt really save much by not using it.


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

Robs660 said:


> Watched a roofing company do s re-roof in a 10 year old home in a development the other day. They did not put anything other then 1 36" strip of ice and water shield down before shingling. Is this s new normal practice?


30# tar paper for first roll at the bottom and the 15# tar paper all the way to the top.

I never leave the roof with out paper... That's not common practice in Vancouver, BC to not paper the entire roof.

Well not anymore... The old t lock roofs over ship lap never had any paper that I would ripp... And I find they always had leaks of some sort.


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

hootrod351 said:


> the paper in mandatory in some areas, and not in others. put down paper then drive 10,000 nails threw it. it helps if some shingles get blown off so its worth it. but doesnt really save much by not using it.


or use a hammer tacker... But I find nailing secures down the paper... making it safer to walk on.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

#1Painters said:


> 30# tar paper for first roll at the bottom and the 15# tar paper all the way to the top.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Stick to painting


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## mtmtnman (Sep 18, 2009)

Right from GAF's Timberline installation instructions.....

• UNDERLAYMENT: Underlayment beneath shingles has many benefits, including preventing wind driven rain from reaching the interior of the building and preventing sap in some wood decking from reacting with asphalt shingles. Underlayment is also required by many code bodies.
Consult your local building department for its requirements. Where an underlayment is to be installed, a breather-type underlayment such as GAFMC's Shingle-Mate®underlayment is recommended. Underlayment must be installed flat, without wrinkles.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

YEA..more pics:tongue_smilie:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

#1Painters said:


>


Sniff, sniff... I smell troll.


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## PatChap (Jun 1, 2012)

I we


Tinstaafl said:


> Sniff, sniff... I smell troll.


I don't think he is, I think he's really proud of that... 
The roof he did looks fine. Not flawless but not rough


That chimney looks like hammeres dogpoo. As I said, I've done some ugly repairs to buy time, but to use it in his flyer? Absurd.
I have also never lapped counterflashing backwards? Who does that?


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Jls, it's hard to tell if your wife is as good looking as it seems in that picture. You should probably post more so that we can form a better opinion. For all we know the first one could be photoshopped:jester:

Btw, I agree, that is definitely a quick and dirty counterflash job, to put it nicely.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Halloween a couple years ago


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Cute Kid, Chicks must dig Builders, I married above my pay grade also :thumbup:


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

jhark123 said:


> Cute Kid, Chicks must dig Builders, I married above my pay grade also :thumbup:



I've been lucky


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

jlsconstruction said:


> I've been lucky


I married mine when we were 18, before she realized her mistake. I was lucky but also smart.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

jhark123 said:


> I married mine when we were 18, before she realized her mistake. I was lucky but also smart.



We got together when she was 15 and I was 18. Will be 9 years in February


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

When I had an office job 15 years ago I had a picture of my wife on my desk. 

New guys would come in and say who's that. I'd say, my wife. I always got, "That's YOUR wife? " I know I'm not Brad Pitt but I'm also not Don Knotts.


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

PatChap said:


> I we
> 
> I don't think he is, I think he's really proud of that...
> The roof he did looks fine. Not flawless but not rough
> ...


Im not a troll... Im just proud of my work...

I enjoy roofing... And im not going to stop doing it because Joe blow tell me Im crappy at roofing... Im my BEST and that's all that matter so say what you want...


Im not insulting anyone's work or telling them to quit their jobs that pays for their family...

lol... its a negative thing too say... 



So obviously something isn't going right in their life...



anyways,


The flashing is a quality job... I dont care what anyone says...


I fixed the leak... It was leaking and it was raining that day... And I fixed the job.


It doesn't have to be pretty...


And put synthetic paper under neath the flashing and shingles 2 feet from the chimney and 8 inches up the chimney wall...

Installed new chimney flashing and step flashing then put the counter flashing over top of that and caulk and sealed it.

its completely water tight.


Thats the way its done in Vancouver, Canada...


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

jlsconstruction said:


> I just finished a $400k remodel, and I'm in the middle of a 2 million dollar addition, believe me I'm not jealous. I'll show you some real before and after pics.
> 
> 
> I'm 6'3 205 lbs, perfect weight for my height.
> ...



Your wife is pretty and your child is cute... (well atleast Ithink its your child)

Anyways, I hope your relationship works out great for you.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Interesting, these guys are from Vancouver and their chimneys look good

http://www.penfoldsroofing.com


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

PatChap said:


> I we
> 
> I don't think he is, I think he's really proud of that...
> The roof he did looks fine. Not flawless but not rough
> ...


Also, It just bring up red flags when some one starts pointing out made up things.


"Your drip edge is reused... the vents are reused... you shingled over the old stuff..."

When its CLEAR that its not true...


People tend to over exaggerate when they get jealous or feel threatened. 


But anyways the thing with white people is they always have to be 'perfect'...


Life ain't perfect sweet heart....

Im not saying do everything half @ss...


What Im saying is if you did the BEST job you could do and it does the job sufficiently then your the man, period...


OK, so my ridge caps are not lazer straight... so what... it still looks good and its water tight... Also, it looks great from the ground...

Besides, I don't care what the pigeons think that my ridge caps are not 'perfectly' straight enough, lol...



P.S The quality of a mans work is SUBJECTIVE.


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

jlsconstruction said:


> Interesting, these guys are from Vancouver and their chimneys look good
> 
> http://www.penfoldsroofing.com


You also have to consider in the fact what the client was willing to pay 

$$$ ...Money talks... $$$


Im not going to do this chimney with copper flashing... get real...


lol...


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

jlsconstruction said:


> Interesting, these guys are from Vancouver and their chimneys look good
> 
> http://www.penfoldsroofing.com


look jealous people or insecure people do crazy things to try and PROVE their self worth...



You went on Google and looked up Vancouver, BC Canada roofing company's to post a link and try to disprove my work.


Why does it mean so much too you... lol...


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

bkb0000 said:


> Yea, there are way better ways of doing counter-flashing...
> 
> What is this guy talking about with the vents and drip metal, though? Looks like new plastic vents and the only metal I can see is the rake-edge, which looks like new big-T. Roof looks good, from here.... except it kind of look like you did "no-cut" valleys, which I *hate*.
> 
> Everyone's got their own style, though.


I know, hes delusional...



I hate the no cut valleys aswell... I use Valley Metal and shingle it in "California style"...


That's how this roof was installed... with valley metal in the valleys then shingle it in accordingly... It produces a bit more waste but its worth it... 

You can also save some pieces from the valley cuts and reuse them in the stagger.


I cut my wrist really bad one time on the valley metal...


I took off my shirt and wrapped it around my wrist really tight and drove to the hospital. 

I received 12 stitches, nearly cut arteries and ligaments. Close to needing plastic surgery. I had to use my left hand for a couple weeks to use my hammer and air nailer...


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

#1Painters said:


> Also, It just bring up red flags when some one starts pointing out made up things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh now it's because I'm white? I think you're "jelly" because you're not white. You're "jelly" because you're working for pay checks. You're "jelly" because you have to do entire jobs by yourself. You're are a hack, I never once said you reused drip edge, I said it looked like the old drip was still on there (under the new drip) then after blowing the picture up I corrected myself. Apparently you can't roof or read. 

How did you get step flashing behind stucco without cutting it? Explain that I'm all ears. 

When you take money from someone to do a job it should be perfect when you get done. 

The next job you look at tell them you're going to half ass some of it, and see if you get the job.

You don't use Ice and water shield. You already said that, but then you said you roofed it to code. I can't find an answer online if i&w is code in bc but I can't imagine it's not. 

There is absolutely no jealousy going on here, your a hack, you proved your a hack right now by saying you do stuff half ass (not everything, but something) yes everything should be perfect, that's what you got paid to do. That's what professionals do. 

You can sit here, and act like you're the man, but you're on a forum of professional contractors. Pros that have to compete with hacks. Pros that won't do chit work because people can't see it. 


One last thing. Drip edge should match the fascia, not the roof.


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

PatChap said:


> I we
> ugly repairs to buy time, but to use it in his flyer? Absurd.




Your right... 


People see things for face value... I should put copper flashing in my ads instead.


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

jlsconstruction said:


> Oh now it's because I'm white? I think you're "jelly" because you're not white. You're "jelly" because you're working for pay checks. You're "jelly" because you have to do entire jobs by yourself. You're are a hack, I never once said you reused drip edge, I said it looked like the old drip was still on there (under the new drip) then after blowing the picture up I corrected myself. Apparently you can't roof or read.
> 
> How did you get step flashing behind stucco without cutting it? Explain that I'm all ears.
> 
> ...


LOL!!!!!!!


You just wrote me a whole story book on MY roofing...

You directed and focused all that energy on me, thanks!
Ill sign that autobiography you made for me.

Anyways,
Look, I didn't say anything thing about half assing the work.

I said life aint perfect. Your ridge caps are not always going to be lazer straight.

Also, I did use ice and water sheild, but only on the low slope. It would be pointless and a waste of time to do it on the steep pitch.


You only need to use ice and water shield on the low slop in BC, Canada.


The drip edge color is SUBJECTIVE. That adds no effect to the 'quality' of the roof. 


And again the way its done in VANCOUVER, BC CANADA...


...The drip edge matches the color of the roof.


Not every Country/City/State/Province does everything the same.


So go ahead write another book on why Im wrong.


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

The entire peanut gallery has to chime in on my flashing...



Anyone posting and responding about my chimney is an attention wh*re trying to gain recognition from his 'peers' typical herd mentally....


"If we group in herds we and gain up on the big bad guy we won't be consider the weak."


I am an individual and my chimney flashing is GREAT.


Who are any of you? NOBODY'S!


Its not hard to walk into a bank and ask for a loan to start a "small business." Its also not hard to ask for loan for a car note or a house...

It's also not hard to go on an internet forum and start smack talking some ones work because your not feeling CONFIDENT your own.

Your over bloated vehicles and over bloated mcmansions got on credit doesn't impress me... Everybody has an oversize truck... So then whats makes that 'special'?...



Judging by your opinions and ideology you all lack BALLS.





I stand alone.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW37AGZ0Pj0


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

Ok...enough of this ****.
Your flashing is not better.
Flashing needs to be stepped and lapped properly...doesn't matter if it's in Oklahoma, Taiwan, or Vancouver; water still flows the same direction and the overlap prevents it from penetrating.
Your pic CLEARLY shows an incorrect lap with a whole bunch of caulking in it, and when that caulk fails water WILL penetrate and cause damage.
Get over your god damned attitude and accept the fact that the example you showed is a piss poor example of your work.

You may have done better work than that before, or even now...but that one is NOT the example you should be showing and arguing about on a forum with members based internationally that perform this kind of work day after day, year after year.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Would a mod please chut that piece of chit...


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

#1Painters said:


> LOL... my flashing is better than yours...
> 
> 
> How is mine crap... mine is excatly the same as your escept I put on counter flashing...
> ...

































Here take a closer look to c*cksize with me some more.


You see I installed synthetic paper underneath the shingles. I then installed the front pan. 

After I installed NEW step flashing OVER the old flashing there.
Folding it over the front pan into wings as you can see there...


Then I installed the back ban leaving 3.5 inch wings out the back so the water doesn't drip straight down the step flashing.


Finishing it off with 10 inch counter flashing... I over killed this chimney repair.


Also caulking all the seams on the counter flashing and the counter flashing... I caulked the crap out of the inside.


and yours is a simple caulking the counter flashing and its done.

lol... weak...



What I meant by quick fix was that its faster to do it then getting an entire chimney and roof repair...


I cant believe the audacity...


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

asevereid said:


> Ok...enough of this ****.
> Your flashing is not better.
> Flashing needs to be stepped and lapped properly...doesn't matter if it's in Oklahoma, Taiwan, or Vancouver; water still flows the same direction and the overlap prevents it from penetrating.
> Your pic CLEARLY shows an incorrect lap with a whole bunch of caulking in it, and when that caulk fails water WILL penetrate and cause damage.
> ...


LOL.. look...

you cant see my flashing because I used 10 inche counter flashing... give it up already.


Also, the side counter flashing goes 8 inches behind the front counter flash....


Go on write me another book on how crappy my work is...


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

superseal said:


> Would a mod please chut that piece of chit...


What you cant handle an adult conversation.



lol...


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I carry a can of this chit for special occasions, pretty sure this fits the bull...


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

superseal said:


> I carry a can of this chit for special occasions, pretty sure this fits the bull...


what part is bull****?...


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

Even if my caulking failed I used enough lap, step flashing, synthetic paper, the old flashing, and caulking on the inside to prevent leaks...



I did a quality job. Its not the prettiest copper flashing. But it does the job and I did it proper...


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

#1Painters said:


> Even if my caulking failed I used enough lap, step flashing, synthetic paper, the old flashing, and caulking on the inside to prevent leaks...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## #1Painters (Jan 22, 2015)

superseal said:


> That's the sig of a lifetime - hope you don't mind if I scarf that:lol:


Go ahead... I can even autograph it for you too...


..,I think you became my second fan...


super seal #2 fan...


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I'll hand it to you...you have a sense of humor, but please don't hold your breathe.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

So far, it looks like we've established that underlayment may or may not be required by code, depending on location, and may or may not be required for manufacturer warranty, depending on product and application.

Only a little info about comparative longevity of a specific install...


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Oh, yeah, and trolling will run up your post count...

Stairs did top notch work.


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## JAH (Jul 27, 2014)

Ding!
Alright ladies, sit down. 
Ice and water has to be 3' up the deck from the plane of the exterior wall. Thats all I have to say.
You can go back to the verbal hair pulling.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

JAH said:


> Ding!
> Alright ladies, sit down.
> Ice and water has to be 3' up the deck from the plane of the exterior wall. Thats all I have to say.
> You can go back to the verbal hair pulling.


Ehh, around here is recommended to be two feet in from the "warm" wall of the house so you may have 3,6,9 or however many feet.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Thanks to all for shutting down what was once an interesting thread. Unless another mod is in the mood to clean this up, it will remain closed. In the future, please use the report button instead of piling on. Not all of us read every thread when they don't pertain to our business or interests.


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