# 14 3 switch



## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

what is the thinking with runing 14/3for light switch then not usen the white in the switch box


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

It's required to be there for future use. 404.2(C).


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## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

sparky said on the house that i'am working on now has over 5000 ft of wire in boxes just there alot of waste


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

pappagor said:


> sparky said on the house that i'am working on now has over 5000 ft of wire in boxes just there alot of waste


If that's true, you need to hire another electrician. One that needs _almost a mile_ of wire to comply with one Code section can't be all that efficient.

Just because _you_ install ordinary toggle switches doesn't mean someone in the future won't install high-end controls that need a neutral to operate. And using the ground wire, like has been done so many times in the past, is dangerous..... because the installer is too cheap to too lazy to install it correctly.

So all those lazy, cheap bastards forced the rest of us honest, hard-working businesses to increase our prices to compensate for their lazy, cheap ways.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

Could be for ceiling fan switch. Most new houses around here have 3 wire run from the $ to the light (ceiling fan box)


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

chris klee said:


> Could be for ceiling fan switch. Most new houses around here have 3 wire run from the $ to the light (ceiling fan box)


It's the required neutral in the switch box.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

480sparky said:


> It's the required neutral in the switch box.


How do you do ceiling fans then? Run power to the switch? Or does it have to be a separate pull?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

chris klee said:


> How do you do ceiling fans then? Run power to the switch? Or does it have to be a separate pull?


Running power to the light, then a switch loop down to the switch, is sheer stupidity. It makes troubleshooting the circuit at any time in the future a nightmare. If you run power to the switch first, then switch legs up to the light, you not only automatically accomplish compliance with 404.2(C), you make TSing a breeze.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

I just rewired the beach cottages this past fall. I ran the power to all the lights cause it was easy to run them in a loop in the attic and only fish one wire down the wall. If the walls were open I would have run the power to the switches. 
I like it better this way for reasons you said. But the walls were not drywall, they were t&g pine planks so I couldn't patch anything. We had to use the old wire as pull strings to fish the new wire in the back cottages. 

Doing it the ways did it caused some confusion a couple times with the guys helping. Keeping them labeled with a sharpe helped but I still had to keep checking everything so they didn't hook it up wrong.


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

No to sound stupid, but are you talking about 14/2 w/ground or 14/3 w/ground?


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Thank you for that. I can't tell you how many times I have run into this scenario. Basically a PIB and you have to take everything apart. 




480sparky said:


> Running power to the light, then a switch loop down to the switch, is sheer stupidity. It makes troubleshooting the circuit at any time in the future a nightmare. If you run power to the switch first, then switch legs up to the light, you not only automatically accomplish compliance with 404.2(C), you make TSing a breeze.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

Morning Wood said:


> No to sound stupid, but are you talking about 14/2 w/ground or 14/3 w/ground?


Op was probably talking 14/3


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

They are requiring a neutral at switch boxes to prevent unqualified hacks and ho's from splicing the neutral on the device to the ground wire in the box when a neutral isn't there. Some dimmers, time switches and occupancy sensors need a neutral connection.

So switch loops are out unless you use 14-3 but kinda defeats the purpose because switch loops are used to save wire.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Any new home or remodel i do gets power to each switch box and 3-wire to the ceiling fixtures. As Sparky 480 stated diag can be a hassle when line is put to the light 1st and then a switched leg put down to the switch. Then if you want to add another light elsewhere and put the switch in that existing switch box you now need that neutral that is missing, thus the code reference 404.2(c) requiring a neutral whether used or not.

You want a real nightmare try diagnosing a 4way switch circuit that is fed at the light. Usually these circuits are very old and the box way over filled so when you drop the light this huge spider of wire pops out and the insulation begins falling off as you sort out the wires. Of course this is normally done hot so you can at least find the one or two hot legs coming in and do not ever count on those hot legs being on the same circuit, sometimes they are different circuits. No worries though, any 12yr old can do it.


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## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

480sparky said:


> It's required to be there for future use. 404.2(C).


when did 404.2 start in


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

pappagor said:


> when did 404.2 start in


2011. Apparently there was enough lazy, unlicensed low-voltage people crying because they needed a neutral for their fancy-dancy lighting control thingies, but they didn't want to actually install a neutral like they're supposed to. So we gotta provide 'em on.

Just like we now have to provide a point to attach a ground wire to for the telephone and cable guys..... seems they're incapable of doing that as well.


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## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

now they want the gas line ground to be by it's self


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

pappagor said:


> now they want the gas line ground to be by it's self


That's not a ground. That's a _bond_.


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## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

480sparky said:


> That's not a ground. That's a _bond_.


ok i just know that when we add a fireplace that is gas we have to add a new bond


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## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

here is one more 
on a 3 way with power to switch one then 14/3 to light to switch 2 you would tape white to switch 2 black do you have to run a white to switch 2 or is one white per run good. just thinking


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

pappagor said:


> here is one more
> on a 3 way with power to switch one then 14/3 to light to switch 2 you would tape white to switch 2 black do you have to run a white to switch 2 or is one white per run good. just thinking


You still need the neutral at all the switches. Easiest fix for dead-end 3-ways is to use 14/4.


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## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

480sparky said:


> You still need the neutral at all the switches. Easiest fix for dead-end 3-ways is to use 14/4.


thanks good to know


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

480sparky said:


> You still need the neutral at all the switches. Easiest fix for dead-end 3-ways is to use 14/4.


Considering 14-2-2 is $152 for 250 ft. roll and 14-2 is $48 a roll I would just run tow sets of 14-2. I can buy 3 rolls of 14-2 for the price of 14-2-2 and I will use 14-2 a ton more.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

realelectrician said:


> Considering 14-2-2 is $152 for 250 ft. roll and 14-2 is $48 a roll I would just run tow sets of 14-2. I can buy 3 rolls of 14-2 for the price of 14-2-2 and I will use 14-2 a ton more.


14-2-2 is NOT 14/4.


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## skcolo (May 16, 2009)

pappagor said:


> ok i just know that when we add a fireplace that is gas we have to add a new bond


You need a bond with CSST or flex line in case of a lightning strike that could create a perforation in the pipe as the energy travels and arcs across the piping.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

480sparky said:


> 14-2-2 is NOT 14/4.


You're right but still has 4 current carrying conductors and roughly $150 for 250ft.

Still wouldn't buy either given 14/2 being used way more often and it's easy to pull.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> 14-2-2 is NOT 14/4.


Isn't the only difference the colour? What does the NEC say about using one for the other and vice versa.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Isn't the only difference the colour? What does the NEC say about using one for the other and vice versa.


How much more labor are you wasting keeping track, installing two runs, and properly identifying those extra runs?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> How much more labor are you wasting keeping track, installing two runs, and properly identifying those extra runs?


How much are you spending stocking an extra type of wire?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> How much are you spending stocking an extra type of wire?


30 seconds. After I buy it, it doesn't take any more time. From there, I save labor.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

480sparky said:


> How much more labor are you wasting keeping track, installing two runs, and properly identifying those extra runs?


For me the extra labor roughly an extra 5-10 mins is not much at all not enough to justify buying that stuff and letting it sit and take up space. But we all do things differently.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

realelectrician said:


> For me the extra labor roughly an extra 5-10 mins is not much at all not enough to justify buying that stuff and letting it sit and take up space. But we all do things differently.


So you don't carry any stock at all? All the returnable stuff you don't use gets returned for credit?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So you don't carry any stock at all? All the returnable stuff you don't use gets returned for credit?


If I stocked every odd ball types of wire I'd have to drive around a semi. I keep my wire stock skews as low as possible.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

480sparky said:


> So you don't carry any stock at all? All the returnable stuff you don't use gets returned for credit?


I certainly do, reason why the damn trailer weighs so much. Besides the local hardware store all my suppliers are 40 miles away. So, i tow the trailer just about everywhere even just to change a switch because you never know what you will end up needing.

Running 2 runs of 14-2 because it is cheaper? Time is money, i would rather save time then a few dollars. More often than not the time i save is worth more than the money saved and in the end the customer is paying and we get a mark up on materials anyway so we still make money.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

woodchuck2 said:


> I certainly do, reason why the damn trailer weighs so much. Besides the local hardware store all my suppliers are 40 miles away. So, i tow the trailer just about everywhere even just to change a switch because you never know what you will end up needing.
> 
> Running 2 runs of 14-2 because it is cheaper? Time is money, i would rather save time then a few dollars. More often than not the time i save is worth more than the money saved and in the end the customer is paying and we get a mark up on materials anyway so we still make money.


If there is markup on materials chances are your job is T&M therefore the extra time is also paid for so it's a wash...if it's a flat rate job then you save in material and spend on time...and I don't think it costs that much more to pull a pair of 2 conductor wires.

I use to carry every type of wire under the sun until I got rid of the box van, I cut my wire skews by half and would never go back to having everything under the sun.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> If I stocked every odd ball types of wire I'd have to drive around a semi. I keep my wire stock skews as low as possible.


Then why not ditch 14-2, 14-3 and 12-2 and just use 12-3 for everything? Just think of the riches you'll endow upon yourself!!!


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Then why not ditch 14-2, 14-3 and 12-2 and just use 12-3 for everything? Just think of the riches you'll endow upon yourself!!!


Brilliant!


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

woodchuck2 said:


> I certainly do, reason why the damn trailer weighs so much. Besides the local hardware store all my suppliers are 40 miles away. So, i tow the trailer just about everywhere even just to change a switch because you never know what you will end up needing.
> 
> Running 2 runs of 14-2 because it is cheaper? Time is money, i would rather save time then a few dollars. More often than not the time i save is worth more than the money saved and in the end the customer is paying and we get a mark up on materials anyway so we still make money.


A few dollars? Try roughly $100. You're burning a ton of gas hauling all that stuff around. I keep stock of all the stuff I use often and some oddball stuff that I may need. 

By the time you dig out the 14/4 out of your rolling warehouse I'd have those two runs of 14/2 pulled guaranteed. Time is money and the customer is paying for it:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

woodchuck2 said:


> I certainly do, reason why the damn trailer weighs so much..........


I have yet to see a resi electrician need a freakin' trailer. Just because *you* haul table saws and brakes and roofing jacks............

Compare apples to apples, not apples to AA batteries.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Ken, I seem to be getting mixed signals from you in this thread. In one post, you seem to be dissing the idea of traveling fully stocked; in another, fully stocked is the way to go because it saves on labor. In another, keeping track of stock squanders labor. :blink:

What _is_ your position?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Ken, I seem to be getting mixed signals from you in this thread. In one post, you seem to be dissing the idea of traveling fully stocked; in another, fully stocked is the way to go because it saves on labor. In another, keeping track of stock squanders labor. :blink:
> 
> What _is_ your position?


Woodchuck: Trade: Electrical Contractor & *Home Maintenance*

Not many electricians need to haul a trailer with a table saw, roof jacks, brakes.......

In fact, as I've already stated, I've never seen a resi electrician need a trailer _period_.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Not many electricians need to haul a trailer with a table saw, roof jacks, brakes.......


No kidding. But you have sidestepped my question. 

More directly: Do you feel that it is more profitable to maintain a high level of inventory and consequently minimize labor, or skimp on inventory and deal with the concomitantly higher labor charges because of that?

Not asking to snipe at you; I'm genuinely interested in your take on it.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> No kidding. But you have sidestepped my question.
> 
> More directly: Do you feel that it is more profitable to maintain a high level of inventory and consequently minimize labor, or skimp on inventory and deal with the concomitantly higher labor charges because of that?
> 
> Not asking to snipe at you; I'm genuinely interested in your take on it.


Why do you think it's skimping on inventory not carrying 14/4? I can go out and track down 10 different ECs and 9 out of 10 wont have it on the truck. And yeah taping a pair of 14/2s and pulling it through is so labor intensive


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> No kidding. But you have sidestepped my question.
> 
> More directly: Do you feel that it is more profitable to maintain a high level of inventory and consequently minimize labor, or skimp on inventory and deal with the concomitantly higher labor charges because of that?
> 
> Not asking to snipe at you; I'm genuinely interested in your take on it.


There's no one, single answer. For the guy doing service calls, carrying 14/4 would be a waste. For a crew roping houses day in and day out, they should buy 14/4 on 1000' spools.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

realelectrician said:


> Why do you think it's skimping on inventory not carrying 14/4? I can go out and track down 10 different ECs and 9 out of 10 wont have it on the truck. And yeah taping a pair of 14/2s and pulling it through is so labor intensive


I'm willing to bet 5 out of those 9 have never heard of 14/4. The other 4 don't know the difference between 14/4 and 14-2-2.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> There's no one, single answer. For the guy doing service calls, carrying 14/4 would be a waste. For a crew roping houses day in and day out, they should buy 14/4 on 1000' spools.


Can't argue with that. Since I have the impression that you're more the former than the latter, you would tend to minimize inventory?


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

About 90% of the materials i carry are electric specific and i find nothing worse than getting to the job to realize i forgot something or the HO has other work to be done and i do not have the material for it. I do carry excessive amounts of wire but if the need arises i know i have what is needed with me and i wont be making a trip to a supplier to get whats needed. I can justify charging windshield time to the job but not for a trip to the supplier for something i should be carrying with me.

As far as justifying running two runs of 14-2 instead of 14-3, well that depends on if it is T&M or rate and also length of run. These runs are not always straight and sometimes requires running between two floors. Running up and down stairs and ladders to chase a second wire seems like a waste to me if i can do it once with 14-3.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Can't argue with that. Since I have the impression that you're more the former than the latter, you would tend to minimize inventory?


If, by "minimize inventory", you mean "carry what you know you'll need", then yes, that's me. If there's no houses in my trade area built with SparkMaster panels, there's no reason for me to carry SparkMaster breakers in my truck. I don't service fire alarm systems either, so I don't carry Belden stuff.

But when I do rope a house or an addition, I get the material needed for the job. 14/4 included. If I do an dead-end 3-way, I use 14/4, just like if I need a 4-gang switch box, I don't use two 2-gangs.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If, by "minimize inventory", you mean "carry what you know you'll need", then yes, that's me. If there's no houses in my trade area built with SparkMaster panels, there's no reason for me to carry SparkMaster breakers in my truck. I don't service fire alarm systems either, so I don't carry Belden stuff.
> 
> But when I do rope a house or an addition, I get the material needed for the job. 14/4 included. If I do an dead-end 3-way, I use 14/4, just like if I need a 4-gang switch box, I don't use two 2-gangs.


Just curious why you don't?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

griz said:


> Just curious why you don't?


Licensing. I don't get many calls for 'em and you need to have a state license to work on them here. It's just not worth the expense of taking CEUs and paying for a license.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Licensing. I don't get many calls for 'em and you need to have a state license to work on them here. It's just not worth the expense of taking CEUs and paying for a license.


Thanks.

A EC can do it out here.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

griz said:


> Thanks.
> 
> A EC can do it out here.


_Fire alarms_, or _smoke detectors_? *BIG* difference!


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

woodchuck2 said:


> About 90% of the materials i carry are electric specific and i find nothing worse than getting to the job to realize i forgot something or the HO has other work to be done and i do not have the material for it. I do carry excessive amounts of wire but if the need arises i know i have what is needed with me and i wont be making a trip to a supplier to get whats needed. I can justify charging windshield time to the job but not for a trip to the supplier for something i should be carrying with me.
> 
> As far as justifying running two runs of 14-2 instead of 14-3, well that depends on if it is T&M or rate and also length of run. These runs are not always straight and sometimes requires running between two floors. Running up and down stairs and ladders to chase a second wire seems like a waste to me if i can do it once with 14-3.


You can load your trailer to the max and still need something on a job you don't have guaranteed.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> _Fire alarms_, or _smoke detectors_? *BIG* difference!


Complete Fire Alarm systems...My choice is Firelite...:thumbsup:

There are integrated smoke, temp. & ion sensors in these systems.

Also referring to pull stations & DACT units.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

griz said:


> Complete Fire Alarm systems...My choice is Firelite...:thumbsup:
> 
> There are integrated smoke, temp. & ion sensors in these systems.
> 
> Also referring to pull stations & DACT units.


Fire alarms require licensing. Resi smokes, any EC can do.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I have yet to see a resi electrician need a freakin' trailer. Just because *you* haul table saws and brakes and roofing jacks............
> 
> Compare apples to apples, not apples to AA batteries.


We have been using a trailer for about a year, and while it does use more fuel, it more than pays for itself. 

The majority of our jobs are more than 20 miles from a supply house or big box. Having a good supply of material sure helps in service work where you're not sure what you are going to run across. It has also been easier to sell additional items if we have the material to install them right then, and not have to schedule another trip.

When working on an ongoing project where we know what we'll be doing every day, we sometimes unhook the trailer and give the truck a break.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

realelectrician said:


> You can load your trailer to the max and still need something on a job you don't have guaranteed.


Very true and it still does happen but not as much as if i only drove a van or utility truck.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

woodchuck2 said:


> Very true and it still does happen but not as much as if i only drove a van or utility truck.


Well your a handyman so you need tools for almost every trade. The most common vehicle for an electrician is a van.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

TxElectrician said:


> We have been using a trailer for about a year, and while it does use more fuel, it more than pays for itself.
> 
> The majority of our jobs are more than 20 miles from a supply house or big box. Having a good supply of material sure helps in service work where you're not sure what you are going to run across. It has also been easier to sell additional items if we have the material to install them right then, and not have to schedule another trip.
> 
> When working on an ongoing project where we know what we'll be doing every day, we sometimes unhook the trailer and give the truck a break.


But.... are you dragging the trailer around with a van, which can easily carry enough material to get you through the next few days?............ or a pickup, which you stock with a clipboard and cell phone?


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> But.... are you dragging the trailer around with a van, which can easily carry enough material to get you through the next few days?............ or a pickup, which you stock with a clipboard and cell phone?


Dragging it with a pickup, stocked with tools, wire, 2-6 footers, 2- 8 footers, 1-10, 1-12 and a 24' extension ladder.

Besides, I'm too old, tall, and fat to be crawling around on my knees trying to find a part. I like being able to stand up.

To be honest, I've never much liked working out of vans, a step van would probably be ideal.

But most of my work is in the country. If I had to pull it around town, or worry about finding a parking spot for it, I'm sure I would sing a different tune.


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