# Old pipes leak. Customer doesn't want to pay for repair



## EmmCeeDee (May 23, 2010)

A question for the plumbers out there about an issue that came up on the job today.

We are working on a bathroom reno / expansion in an old house. Existing toilet, tub and sink were removed and a double bowl sink installed in the same location. The existing waste lines were way off to either side of the new sink, so our plumber capped them and tied the new sink into a vertical 2" vent that happened to be in the exact location we needed it. 

We closed up the wall, the plumber connected the sink, we trimmed the bathroom and done. That weekend the HO noticed a leak in the basement.

Today we tracked down the leak and it was from a stress crack way down the 2" vent that we tied into. It would never have become apparent unless it was used as a waste line.

The customer is now asking why we did not just use the original lines and is balking on paying for repairs to the 2" line. The plumber is saying it did not make sense to run to the existing line when the vent was in the right location and he should not be responsible for repairing existing cracks in the pipes.

I am kind of a neutral observer on this, as the argument is between the HO, my employer and the plumber, but I would appreciate any perspective the community has on this dispute.


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## Builderbob 72 (Dec 15, 2010)

I would say this is on your dime. Without knowing the history of the line, it wasn't leaking before you got there, but now it is. The whole "last man to touch it is responsible" catch. 

That is just my opinion, as someone that has had to eat repairs caused by innocent actions that were not inside my original scope of work.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Tough call but I'd say the plumber should have done his due diligence to verify he was connecting to something sound.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Here it is a code violation to use a vent as a drain, the original drain line would have to be extended and revented.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

I can see this from the homeowners perspective. It was fine until you touched it, and I paid you for your expertise. I would offer to provide the labor to fix for free, they would be responsible for materials.


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## EmmCeeDee (May 23, 2010)

I hear you. The plumber and I were talking about the you touch it you own it rule. 

On the other hand, if we had gone to the existing lines it would have been much more involved and expensive and the HO could have justifiably questioned that approach as well. The HO was not consulted on this, but if he had been I have no doubt he would have chosen the cheaper, easier approach, as would most people.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Perhaps, but the home owner wasn't asked to make the call. I can sympathize with the plumbers point of view, but, shouldn't he have asked what route to take? Gotta go with Artisan's advise.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Not a plumber but pretty sure tying a drain into a vent is a code violation anywhere codes are enforced, and a bad idea anywhere else.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

It's at most a 1/2 hour repair... some things are not worth fretting over... get 'er done...

You touched it, you fix it... split with him and move on...


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

KAP said:


> It's at most a 1/2 hour repair... some things are not worth fretting over... get 'er done...
> 
> You touched it, you fix it... split with him and move on...


I don't see it being the responsibility of the builder...if anything the burden should be shared between the homeowner and the plumber.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

2 problems here guys....

Here is my invoice. Let's start with this.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Here it is a code violation to use a vent as a drain, the original drain line would have to be extended and revented.





mudpad said:


> Not a plumber but pretty sure tying a drain into a vent is a code violation anywhere codes are enforced, and a bad idea anywhere else.


I agree with the unamity of everyone on here that it is not the HO's responsibility. (whether the GC or plumber... depends on another senario)...

Someone should have priced in (or contracted "unforseen circumstances") moving the drain lines.

However... Killer and Mudpad... as referencing the quotes above , and assuming it's a pretty standard sink vent (ie servicing the two/one drain of the old sink which are capped off) what's the problem with using it's vent as a drain.

It's not a wet vent... bottom of the pipe is a drain... top is a vent????

TIA

Best

Peter


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

2nd issue is simple. You can not, under any circumstances, tie 2 lavatories in to a vent. Period. No exception. Not even Guam.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> 2 problems here guys....
> 
> Here is my invoice. Let's start with this.
> 
> ...


OCO... Sorry bubbi for the above post.... we x-posted and never saw your contract....

Different story now as to responsibility ....


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> I agree with the unamity of everyone on here that it is not the HO's responsibility. (whether the GC or plumber... depends on another senario)...
> 
> Someone should have priced in (or contracted "unforseen circumstances") moving the drain lines.
> 
> ...


OK, vents have short pattern fittings and are non compliant with codes for drains. That's the first thing.

2nd. That vent was used for some some fixture? I'd really like to see a photo of all this. 

3rd. Vents are dry. This is made from steel. Introducing water in to a steel vent that has been dry for 80 years is just asking for trouble. 

4th. That's pure laziness. Leaking or not, nobody bids on tying it in like that. My guess was he bid it before the walls were open? Then they were opened? Then he thought, "sweeeet motha phucka, I'm gonna tie this ***** in and head home early".

Install it the way you bid it. Keeps your azz out of trouble.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

lol not even guam


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Also, if it's a vent that comes up from the basement, then it apparently is venting something in the basement.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Guys, I can tell you something from the repair side of life. In old homes that have work done on them it's reality that other things fail. It's like the plumbing gods come down and smack you 4 out of 10 times minimum. 

It's very intelligent as a builder/contractor/GC/plumber to sit down with a HO and let them know that the domino effect happens and is not part of the contract.

I learned the hard way. Did a repair inside a home on a sewer. 2 days later I have excavators in the back yard digging pipe up.......on my dime! Never again. Lesson learned.


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## EmmCeeDee (May 23, 2010)

Clarification on the wet vent issue: this is a 2" cast iron line that used to drain a first floor sink, long since capped, and it happened to run up through the second floor wall where we were mounting the new sink. Nothing else is attached to it other than the new sink.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> 2nd issue is simple. You can not, under any circumstances, tie 2 lavatories in to a vent. Period. No exception. Not even Guam.


OCO.... could you explain.... I'm a GC not a plumber, but isn't it a drain below and a vent above...., assuming it is not venting anything else.

We have to use a Wye with directional baffle... but are you saying two separate drains for a two sink bath.

PS... I'm not in Guam.

TIA


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

flashheatingand said:


> Just my opinion, I think it's a builder/plumber issue. Technically speaking, if the plumber didn't ask the builder, and, just did it as the plumber sees fit, then I'd say it's on the plumber.
> 
> Having said that, the builder doesn't need the drama over a significantly low number.


Flash, the details aren't important, the fact is he walked out of the building after performing and installation that leaked. Same as me using an abandon wire, punching on an end and not testing to see that it worked. No matter how simple or complex the install you test your work.


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## plummen (Jan 9, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> 2 problems here guys....
> 
> Here is my invoice. Let's start with this.
> 
> ...


When he tied the waste into the existing vent for another fixture that all went right out the window in my book anyway,plumber stepped on it in my book anyway.
Fix it the right way this time and revent the fixtures and move on.:whistling


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