# What kind of sand for pavers



## [email protected]

Starting to get into pavers and walks and the jobs are getting bigger. It's too expensive to buy paver sand by the bag - as at Lowe's - does everyone just use builders sand from the local builders supply or does it need to be a special type of sand? :blink:


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## R&D Tile

Mason sand is fine, forgot the name of it, but they also make a binding sand just for pavers, stays in the joints, won't wash out like regular sand, do a search, haven't done any pavers in awhile, did for years, now just tile.


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## NasConst_land

Mason sand will work just fine. The sand for the joints is called polymeric sand. It just hardens when it gets wet, and like said above wont blow out of the joints also keeps ants and stuff out of the patio or walk. As far as i know you can only buy the polymeric sand by bags, atleast in my area.


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## Tscarborough

Technically, masonry sand is too fine. Concrete sand is what is specified, and it is even cheaper.


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## orionkf

Ts is correct. Mason's sand is too fine, and will not provide the required interlocking properties required. You want something more coarse and angular.


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## Always Greener

Unilock Polymeric Sand....


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## [email protected]

Thanks for the quick replys everyone. I love this site  Now that I know what to look for I can ask around and see if I can obtain any locally. Like to do things right. :thumbup:


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## InterlockPavers

Hi guys new to the site but hello.

Best bet for placing interlocking pavers is a 1 inch screeded area of coarse concrete sand. The coarser the sand the better. After placing 4-6 base of crush and run or crushed concrete for side walks and 6-10 base of crush n run for driveways this will be best. Make sure it is screeded equally and no deviations. After edge restrain is placed use compacter to lvl. Hopefully nice and smooth.

GOOD luck


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## [email protected]

Appreciate the reply and welcome. :clap: Always good to hear from another contractor. Crusher run is available here at the gravel quarries. Notice that you also do decks. Lots of good people here compared to other sites I've tried. I'm not a big business (just 2 of us) but that makes information so much more important. :thumbsup: 
Do you do a lot of composite decking or is it P.T.? I've found that I have to at least double the materials to do composite and it discourages a lot of people from using it. :blink:


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## Teetorbilt

I work in sand and mostly pavers. I use #3 to #5 rebar and mesh with a min. of 3" of fiber reinfroced concrete. Here', it will kickoff within a week. If time is an issue, throw a sprinkler(s) on it. Like most concrete, it won't be set for about a month and a half.


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## InterlockPavers

Hi edenscapes:

We are currently building a deck out of timbertech using the timbertech tounge and grove system. This allows for hidden fasteners, however with composite decks the price is significant. Picture this a 340 square foot deck with timbertech T and G and Timbertech radiance railling the total was a little over 15,000. This comes to about 48 per square foot. The price is high when you pay $65 per 20 foot board and $52 per 16 ft board. It all depends on the clientelle you are dealing with. If you are into building decks and doing interlocking concrete pavers here are a few good resources for you.

www . icpi . org
www . timbertech .com

wont let me post url since i have only posted 3 times =.=


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## Teetorbilt

Interlock, this is smelling of spam. Please prove me wrong. Nathan is the admin., you can contact him for ads.


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## InterlockPavers

spam?

Icpi if you are not educated in the paver industry is The interlocking concrete paver institute. OKay see now what they do is train installers and certify them in interlocking concrete pavers. 

TImbertech is a compsite decking manufacturer see now what they also do is help contracters become certified in installing composite decking boards.

Anything else here mate.

I think your post is just spam I am offering information to help someone where as your not.

OK

Once again good luck edenscapes


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## Teetorbilt

It appears as you are a newbie and promoting a singular product. That would make it spam. I'll let it ride for a while but don't be suprised if another mod slams the door on you.


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## Phil Graves

*Joint Sand*

Edenscapes,

The industry standard for joint sand is ASTM C144, which is the same as mason sand. The bedding sand is ASTM C33, which is more coarse than mason sand. The reason for the more coarse bedding sand is because mason sand allows for a certain percentage of fines, which could trap water in the bedding layer, which is intended to facilitate the movement of water. Many contractors use their bedding sand as their joint sand as well, but there is good reason to use the finer sand for the joints. Coarse sand tends to be tougher to completely fill in the joints due to the particle sizes, and you'll frequently get a "bridging" effect where sand gets hung up on the joints only a little ways down. This sand will eventualy setlle, revealing voids that can cause a loss of vertical interlock or create aesthetic problems. True mason sand is still angular and will lock up very well while more easily finding its way into the joint. Just be sure you don't end up with silica sand or play sand or anything else that has round particles or is way too fine.

Polymeric sand is an excellent choice. There are a number of manufacturers and there are some differences that matter. I'll let others here comment on that as I work for one of those manufacturers. Feel free to send me a private message if you want more info.


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## [email protected]

Thanks Phil, Appreciate the advice. I've been doing some research of different products and methods as well as tracking the jobs I've been doing. It all helps and I will be P.M. you. :thumbsup:


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## eskerlite

With beige pavers I use fine sand, and with reds and grays I use stonedust that is a fine grey sand. Sweep the sand in a diagnal motion to the joints. Sweep in dry first then wet.
Sean C.


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## Jo Anne Moore

I like the Super Sand from Alliance as well.


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## golfsferr

*Paver advise*

I'm doing some redesign for some folks and they asked me if I could level out their pavers too. They have just sunk some. I would imagine that the base is still good but do I just need mason sand to raise them and then the polymeric sand to secure? 

Thanks in advance.


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## concretemasonry

If you look at the recommendations by the Interlocking Concrete Paving Institute (ICPI at icpi.org?), you will find that concrete send is best for the 1" setting bed. Because of the wide variation in gradations some concrete sands are too coarse for the spreading, sweeping and interlocking, so masons sand does meet the requirements better. It is a regional thing and not everyone builds streets and some people build patios, so you can get away with a little more.


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## Tscarborough

Concrete Sand, ASTM C-33, is screened to 3/8", which will cause bridging if used to fill joints. Masonry sand, ASTM C-144 is the best for on top, concrete for underneath.


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## AtlRemodeling

When I went through the ICPI training, the instructors were very adamant that mason sand was NOT acceptable for joint sand. They reason being that it was not angular enough and therefore did not create the friction needed to interlock the pavers. 

They, of course, highly recommend the polymeric sand which we use in most situations. I have used a number of different polymerics and can not promote one over the others as I have not had any callbacks due to joint sand. IMHO factor polymeric sand into the price, use it and remove callbacks as an issue. Peace of mind is wondeful.


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## Tscarborough

I do not like polymeric sand, and do not sell it or recommend it, for the same reason that I do not recommend adding a small amount of portland to the sand: bridging and washing.

If it meets ASTM C-144, it is angular enough.


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## Andy L

Base concrete sand. Final sweep concrete sand will work you have it on the job. Polmerics are okay to sweep in cost is an aspect but you pass the cost off to the client along with extra labor to sweep and wet it.


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## VAviaCo

Anyone hear of (or use) polymetric sand for the bed?
A guy suggested this but it seems the manufacturer's site only talks about it for joints.


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## concretemasonry

I wouldn't take a chance of using polymeric sand for the setting bed. - Why change what has been proven for many years? This is especially true since the week documentation by the supplier does not mention the use or can back it up.

The setting bed sand must be clean and free draining to avoid water accumulation, possible "floating" of the pavers, that could end being not level anymore. You would also have a teduced strength of the entire paver/base/ sub-base sytem. Since it just for a patio, you could get away with it, but it would not be allowed on larger, more critical jobs.

If you have to use it a the demand of the customer, make sure you get something in writing that the owner wants it. If there is a problem and you did not follow the normal paver installations published by the ICPI and other international organizations, you could have a replacement problem staring at you.


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## VAviaCo

I'm trying to track down bedding sand in my area.

I have 3-4" crusher run base. Will be putting in natural stone for steps and a walkway. 

Masonary sand is easy to find and it seems some people have used it for bedding though some posts have discouraged that.
The local concrete place (real close) has what they call "natural sand", which is what they use to mix their concrete. It looks to contain silica to me. They have no idea if it matches ASTM C33 or anything else. 
They also call something they call manufactured sand that looks almost black.

Further away some suppliers are sure they have what I need but I don't want to drive an hour to find the same stuff I can get 6 miles from here.

One local farm supply store has "bedding sand" in a bag that he says is not polymetric but its $3.80 for 50 pounds. I can get the other stuff for $20/ton.

The more people I call the more confusing it is.

Any check I can do to this "natural sand" to see if its good stuff?

Thanks for the help.


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## concretemasonry

ASTM C33 sand is concrete sand. The natural sand is just a local term. An excess of fines is not good, but if it is used for concrete, it should be fine.

If all possible, do not used a manufactured since it is often crushed and has an angular shape. If that send is the same stuff that is used by a ready-mix concrete producer, it should be OK. They cannot afford the angular shape because that increases the cost to get strength and workability.

Make sure you DO NOT compact the sand and it should be a uniform 1" thickness with the adjustments for slope made when the base material is put in and compacted.


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## Treeandland

Besides what was said above about it not draining, using polymeric sand for the base would get very expensive.
I don't think the polymeric is the proper type sand except to fill the joints anyways, the base is worked up into the joint to interlock the pavers when you tamp them and then they are filled the rest of the way with whatever type you want. I've found that using concrete sand to fill the joints is a pia and not worth the time.


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## AustinDB

not sure what brand paver you're using-if you purchased from a supply house, ask for company literature-it may have install instructions. I use EP Henry and they have install specs in their yearly catalog and info online. 

https://www.ephenry.com/TechnicalInformation/Files//Paving%20Stones/Installation%20Guidelines/EPH%20Paver%20Installation%20Guidelines.pdf


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## concretemasonry

For installation instructions, you can always to the Interlocking Concrete Paving Institute (ICPI) site at icpi.org. The have many specifications, installation instructions AND they also certify paving stone contractors. It is also an organization for contractors to involved in.

Most reputable paver manufacturers are member and the the technical and installation if they are not at the meetings. EP Henry is a member as I remember, since they are a good manufacturer. When it comes to the patio business, there are a few that only supply that type of paver and do not meet the tighter specs like EP Henry can, as an example.


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## VAviaCo

No pavers, natural rock.
Some color called "chocolate gray"
Not sure of the species even, sort of like slate but I don't think it is.
Costs about $200/ton from the home/farm supply house locally.
It has a lot of odd shapes and uneven thicknesses. 
I think I'll need some kind of medicine or yoga trance to make them look good fitting together.


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## HandyHails

I agree w/ concrete for bedding sand unless you are using a thinner natural stone as a paver. I've had instances w/ travertine where the larger rocks in the concrete sand actually caused many of the pavers to crack upon compaction and then a few more split over the course of the winter. Now I would use mason sand for the thinner pavers to avoid this altogether and just take some extra time on the base.

Polymeric sand is fine in most instances. I won't keep it stocked because if its not used right away it has a tendancy to absorb moisture and then once it dries out it won't adhere to itself anymore.


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## antnepi

Does anybody know of a thin exterior tile for a front door area? I have a client that wants a thin tile or stone. I have only installed paver stones and she doesn't like how thick they are. The front door area right now has steps that come up to a concrete pad and she doesn't want to see a thick paver on the lip. I am going to talk to my tile guy tomorrow, but any suggestions you may have would be great.


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## tkle

Compacted concrete sand or base with an inch of masonry sand screed on top.


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## lucky644

Golf course sand and crusher fines get my vote (golf sand for the interlocking and crusher fines for the base)

I've never used the bagged stuff for anything except maybe interlocking on some occasions, since sometimes the sand you have is too moist to properly tamp and lock it in.


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## concretemasonry

I have never seen polymeric sand used on a street or a major or high spec project. This especially covers 40 acre site with very high wheel loads (4 wheel stradle loaders to pick of 50,000# containers) and stack them on the site creating repeated loads over the aisles. Also never saw polymeric for pavers on a taxiway for 747 transports.

If you are just doing a patio that does not require performance, you can use the gimmicks or most anything include seat of the pants "advice".


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## Patrick Edelman

Sometimes Landscapers around can have left overs that they could sell or they will refer you to someone where they buy it for a good price. Just ask you have nothing to loose. After, if you need any landscaping work you will have known how friendly they were to help on a smaller scale! 
We used polymeric sand for our project in St-Félix-de-Valois L'Accalmie Spa Nordique. One of my men left a pouch near the sprinklers-not to tell you that it was lost. So no humidity around the pouch of polymeric sand- seems obvious I agree but better be reminder over and over.


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