# Gerard and Decra



## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

Any of you guys use stone coated metal shingles. In an effort to increase per job profits I think I'm really going to start pushing Gerard this year. Any advice would be helpful.


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

We ran two Decra jobs last year. Suhweet!

I'm pushing them hard this year, but so far it's been a waste of my effort. Too expensive for most. Also, I've been looking at the Metro shingles, I'm going to try them out next. My only negative about Decra's are the bottoms hook on to the course below. Sure there isn't an exposed screw, BUT if you ever have to do a repair OUCH!


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I was trying to get Decra jobs sold but there wasn't much of a market for it.

I've actually only seen two roofs around here that has Decra on it. I think at the end of the day, people don't want to pay the premium when asphalt roofs have the same warranties, are much cheaper and people aren't staying in their homes that long anymore.


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

Agreed. Those things are crazy expensive. I sold a gerard roof to a guy who had to replace the wood shingles. I think it's on jobs like that they are competitive. It's a 66sq Canyon Shake Profile. I'm exited to see how it goes. The jobs I have seen around are probably some of the best looking roofs I have ever seen. It's a really niche market but one that pays well. I was thinking about Steven and his Slate roofing. It seems like similar marketing would do well for these jobs. I mean the large mailers to a very targeted list.


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

I don't think asphalt shingles carry the same warranty. Fifty year warranty, non-prorated until 20 years. Fully transferrable, which if your selling your home could help your house stand out from the crowd.

I just made up some mailers and working on that targeted mailing list


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## Donohue Const (Dec 31, 2011)

I like metro over decra

Seems like the decra never lay perfect and you can always pick out every seem and shingle on the roof


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

dDubya said:


> I don't think asphalt shingles carry the same warranty. Fifty year warranty, non-prorated until 20 years. Fully transferrable, which if your selling your home could help your house stand out from the crowd.
> 
> I just made up some mailers and working on that targeted mailing list


Ours are 50 year non prorated, covering everything for those 50 years. Materials, Labor, Tear off and disposal. Also workmanship for 10-25 years backed by the manufacturer.

Warranties aren't worth the paper they are written on but still.


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

Bam: When you say 'our' do you mean Decra's warranty? I agree about the warranty just being a piece of paper, but then again I've done plenty of shingle replacements paid by the manufacturer. Aesthetics are probably the most common problem that could happen with stone coated steel, stones falling off.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

> probably the most common problem that could happen with stone coated steel, stones falling off.


For the longest time I wouldn't install those for that very reason.
20 year mark or before these roofs have failed, looked like crap. I could go on and on about the details etc. Guys putting them right over asphalt shingles and scratching the underside of the material herefore causing/ allowing rusting on the underside. The stone coated material has a long history of not doing nearly as well as marketed.

Now, who am I to tell people how to spend their money, if they want it, we will give it to them.

I've been to the Gerard training in Kanas City area MO. few years back. couple day event if I remember.
Personally I think the Decra looks nicer, particular the Villa Tile


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## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

Stone coated metal is my bread and butter, pretty much done most of the main brands. Started with Decra back in the early 80's, did that for about 10 yrs, did some Gerard, Dura Loc and now we do mostly Metro.

All have advantages and disadvantages however, I am no a fan of any of the hidden fasten type profiles. Being in the industry for so long we do many room additions on existing metal roofs, those hidden fastener profiles cost some serious bank to tie into. You end up having to peal the roof system from the ridge down to the area you need access, which just adds to the overall cost. 

As for looks, no one company has the best the look for every profile, each typically has one they do best. The tread now seams to be making the these roof systems easier to install. While they are achieving this, they are taking away the aesthetic detail of how they use to be installed, with some hand forming, shear, and a couple of foot brakes. Everything is becoming cut and tuck, a look that takes the detail away from the installation. It's the details that count, and I feel they are sacrificing detail to sell more product.


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

Andy, would you have some pictures to show what your talking about as far as old detail vs new? I haven't sold a Metro job yet, but I'm really looking forward to trying them.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

dDubya said:


> Bam: When you say 'our' do you mean Decra's warranty? I agree about the warranty just being a piece of paper, but then again I've done plenty of shingle replacements paid by the manufacturer. Aesthetics are probably the most common problem that could happen with stone coated steel, stones falling off.


No I mean the asphalt manufacturers warranties.

I do wish I could break into the metal market though but like I said, it doesn't seem like there is a real want for it around here.


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## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

In addition to the link I sent you, the valley is different also. We do either open or closed valleys, it al depends on what roofs the HO saw prior to buying and if there are a lot of trees around. Typically we do closed valleys.

With a cut and tuck valley your just cutting the roof tile on the angle of the valley an tucking it under a valley cover...typically a long 6 to 10 foot pc of stone coated metal. The old school way would be the roof tile is marked to indicate a cut line and a bend line. The tile is bent down 90 degrees into the valley on the bend line. The bend down is about 1-1.5". No straight piece of stone coated valley cover is used. 

If your installing a wood shake profile, why would you want straight pieces of metal at all(valley cover, gable channel). They look out of place on this profile, as they also would on say Decra Tile.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

, The stone coated roofing doe very well in areas that don't get much rain and do not have much weather variation like southern cal.

In other climates where temps. can range from 20 below to 100 degrees is when then coating wears off it as the adhesive is water based that softens in the heat. Many of the details retain debris and will keep the metal ends in a longer state of being wet, like in the valley. You wont see any copper granules imbedded on these for mold and mildew prevention.
Its considered by many , of those who do metal, to be the asphalt shingle ( temporary ) of the metal roofing industry.

That being said, there is a familiar look people like and if you don't say any cons about it, it does well.

In case anyone hasn't noticed I don't think much of those products and I have a tendency to be fairly opinionated.


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## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

If I had my choice and $ wasn't an issue, I would put a nice SS on my own home . I have 40 yr Malarkey on the house now, my HOA only allows comp. Stone coated metal is just another option. I would think the main reason folks here like it, other than the look, is its weight and fire resistance. Concrete weights a ton and would require engineering calcs...not to mention we get a lot of fires and the ground moves just a tad sometimes.


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

They are hard to get a perfectly straight clean cut with the shears, so I can see how the folded edge would take a bit of practice to be good. But I like it! Also saves money on the trim, which as mentioned, isn't cheap.

Have you seen these get algae or moss?


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

I have looked at about 20 installed around here (Gerard rep gave me addresses) and none have developed any algae as of yet. One job did have some stating where a gutter downspout exited over the top of it.


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## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

dDubya said:


> They are hard to get a perfectly straight clean cut with the shears, so I can see how the folded edge would take a bit of practice to be good. But I like it! Also saves money on the trim, which as mentioned, isn't cheap.
> 
> Have you seen these get algae or moss?


Yes I see moss on some, but its very minor. A bristle brush and a bucket of water usually takes it off. If its allowed to go unchecked you will have a bit more work ahead of you. We did power wash an apt complex once, they had a real bad moss problem in the shaded roof areas. Just need to be careful where you point it and use the 60 degree tip. 

The trim is pricey, but if you look at the stone coated valley cover and gable channel you are being charged a pretty penny there also. They are asking top dollar for the accessories, that imo, take away from the overall look of the product.

Granted the cut and tuck approach is allowing you to install metal with out having to buy the shear and foot break...those are probably $2k or more.


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

I've heard that debris can clog the valleys and it's best to run an open valley. My reps said that batten installs can have the open valley, but not direct to deck. Do you have any comments regarding this Andy?

Also, thanks for the info. I'm just trying to make sure I'm putting down the best work possible.


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

dDubya said:


> I've heard that debris can clog the valleys and it's best to run an open valley. My reps said that batten installs can have the open valley, but not direct to deck. Do you have any comments regarding this Andy?
> 
> 
> 
> Also, thanks for the info. I'm just trying to make sure I'm putting down the best work possible.



I recently went to the Gerard factory training and was taught the same thing. Also the instructor strongly suggested that you only go with an open valley when possible because of debris. Also we were only taught the bend down method at the valleys. Not sure how you could do one if these installs without the break and shear.


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## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

Debris can clog in the valleys open or closed. Regular cleaning off of the roof is required if you have a lot of surrounding tree cover. I would say once each year prior to the rainy season should be fine...regardless of the valley being open or closed, its just good preventative maintenance.

Which one is more prone to clogging would depend on the amount of debris accumulation. An open valley would be easier to clean, a closed valley would require removal of the valley cuts to clean it out. But both can clog. I see about 2 or 3 leaks like this on old roofs a year and its always from not cleaning the debris off the roof at the valleys.

Battens or direct to deck can have a closed or open valley. The difference being the batten installation uses a 7" W valley and the direct to deck uses a 24" valley. If debris gets in to either of them it can clog it. With the 7" W valley you have a bit more space for water to flow than the direct to deck installation. imo direct to deck is the way to go, battens elevate the roof and create a walkability issue for anyone but the roofers. If you need to clean off the roof each year do you really want the HO or their gardener to walk on the metal roof. The answer should be no. Gardeners don't give two shiats that you have to walk on it a certain way, they will destroy it. I have tons of pics of this very type of damage. 

Battens are required, by us, for any roof pitch above 8/12. You need the battens in order to install the roof on slopes you cant walk on, it creates a built in ladder. These installs are not prone to damage by others because of the pitch, most folks don't walk on these roofs so battens are no big deal.

I would insist on installing all the roof panels and trim with screws. Forget nails, they have been proven to fail...even the ring shanks didn't stay put. Besides the fact its a better installation, it will allow for the HO to add skylights, room additions and solar without destroying the roof panels if they choose to do this work down the road. Also, how would clean out a closed valley nailed with ring shanks. You can, but you will damage the valley cuts when you remove them with a catspaw. Screws just make sense.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

LeeFowler said:


> Agreed. Those things are crazy expensive. I sold a gerard roof to a guy who had to replace the wood shingles. I think it's on jobs like that they are competitive. It's a 66sq Canyon Shake Profile. I'm exited to see how it goes. The jobs I have seen around are probably some of the best looking roofs I have ever seen. It's a really niche market but one that pays well. I was thinking about Steven and his Slate roofing. It seems like similar marketing would do well for these jobs. I mean the large mailers to a very targeted list.


 Interesting thought Lee.

I actually looked pretty seriously at Decra and went to a training session last winter.
prior to the training session I was thinking it might be an OK product for us under certain circumstances.
specifically---- I was thinking about people with PA. grey slate roofs at the end of their lifespans--- who are definitely not going to install a new slate roof---- and yet are not happy with going to asphalt........

After the training session I was less interested in the product and my oldest son was pretty adamant about us NOT using Decra or similar products--- he really hated the valley system as I recall ( I wasn't wild about it either)
We have not pursued it any further

speaking for my company only--- i think we succeed by NOT trying to be all things to all people. Adding Decra would, in effect " dilute our brand"
Having said THAT---- in general I think there IS an opportunity for someone to effectively and professionally market that product---and a contractor could present themselves as a specialist in that product.
I think there is POTENTIAL for that type of product to be a growth market---- but potential doesn't mean it WILL be a growth market.

Stephen


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## Katoryan (Mar 1, 2015)

*Gerard*

I'm brand new to this site. But thought I would give you my two cents.
I have been installing both Metro and Gerard Steel Roofs for 7 years and honestly you won't find a better steel shingle.
I myself prefer Gerard. Either the Canyon Shake or the Granite Ridge Shingle. CS shingle we only do open valleys. GR valleys are all closed valleys.
Where I am in Southern MN, the Market has only grown for steel shingles. 75% of our steel roofs are put on farmers houses,sheds. We even do churches once or twice a year. Sure it's expensive but how many times would you replace asphalt in your lifetime on your own home? 3,4+ times.
We sell Steel Shingles for anywhere around $650 a square to $775 a square depending on the job.
So the money is there to be made, it's not very difficult to lay. Either direct to deck or batten system. Always use screws to fasten them, they hold so much better. 
They are rated at 160+mph winds. I've seen them take bigger then a golf ball size hail with little to no damage. 
That being said give Gerard a chance you won't be disappointed. If you would like some pics I would be happy to post a few of current or past jobs. Thanks for reading.


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## Donohue Const (Dec 31, 2011)

What part of southern mn?


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## Katoryan (Mar 1, 2015)

Mankato


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## Donohue Const (Dec 31, 2011)

I'm only about an hour south of you then.


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## Katoryan (Mar 1, 2015)

I've done a few jobs to the west of Granada on 150th towards hwy15


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

Ok, here is a question that I hate to ask but I was told by a company rep that you could install two of the profiles DIRECTLY on top of shingles, no batten or felt. Now that I've heard that, I found a lot of examples online. I was against it at first, but this could make a good dent in the price for some of my customers.

Note: I fully realize metal generally shouldn't be installed directly on shingles, just wanting to talk to other contractors about this.


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## Katoryan (Mar 1, 2015)

You sure can. We always use a barrier PSU for ice dams and UDL 50 instead of a felt. I've heard of many people that use no barrier. You can go over 1 layer of shingles. anymore then that you have to tear off.
Batten system is nice for steep pitches and you can start from the top and make your way down and not stomp on the new shingles.


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

Good to know thanks! We haven't used Gerard. I'm thinking about switching over to open valley systems. Have you done this w/ Metro's direct to deck and what did you think?


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## Katoryan (Mar 1, 2015)

I've never done the open valley direct to deck with metro. Those valleys were always 24in W valleys which as you know are closed. Metro and Gerard Canyon Shake are essentially the same exact shingle just different companies. It wasent until I switched to Gerard with a different company that we went to open 6in valley's direct to deck.
I myself prefer open valleys. Mostly looks.
They do take more time but once you start getting the hang of it it goes fast.
We shingle the whole section of roof with full shingles up to the valley, then starting at the bottom of the valley we measure each valley piece until the top and cut and bend them all at one time. Then install them.


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

I could see that moving right along. I'm interested in open valleys because I've heard that debris could cause a leak in as little as a few years. Plus we just bought an 20" deep throated break, so I can bend the valleys myself. 

It's kind of hard to sell a top of the line roof system to somebody and then say "oh yea, I'm going to need to service it every few years"


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## Donohue Const (Dec 31, 2011)

Katoryan, care to share your company name?
Do you do just steel roofs?
Sorry for all the questions, but you are the first member near me. Maybe I have heard of you.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

dDubya said:


> Ok, here is a question that I hate to ask but I was told by a company rep that you could install two of the profiles DIRECTLY on top of shingles, no batten or felt. Now that I've heard that, I found a lot of examples online. I was against it at first, but this could make a good dent in the price for some of my customers.
> 
> Note: I fully realize metal generally shouldn't be installed directly on shingles, just wanting to talk to other contractors about this.


I would check the manufacturer installation instructions. If there is ever a problem about anything, that is what is going to be looked at.

Will anyone ever know if the material is rusting from the underside due to all the scratches, probably not.


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

Red: Manufacturer is the one who said it was okay, but I question everything. I'm assuming its allowed because only one small piece touches the roof, and thats right near where it's screwed.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

dDubya said:


> Red: Manufacturer is the one who said it was okay, but I question everything. I'm assuming its allowed because only one small piece touches the roof, and thats right near where it's screwed.


 manufacturer installation instructions ( written)


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## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

Going over a layer of comp, in good condition, is a rare install for us. Either way we would still put down synthetic underlayment. 

It's been my experience that folks looking for a premium metal roof are not concerned about the cost of a tear off. They want to do it right one time and that means tear off, going over is not considered best practice.

My supplier has pre bent drip edge designed to go over a clean deck. These flashings are not avail at HD or any supply yard, they bend them in house and are specific to Metro installs. I would have to have a custom size drip edge bent to accommodate a go over... it does happen on a rare occasion.


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

Red: What is this "read" you speak of  J/k I've read Decra's many times, but haven't fully read Metro's guide & warranty yet.

Andy: Agreed. I just happened to bid a property owners house whose roof is laying great. He talked me down on the last job, so I'm knocking the felt off this bid to see how he reacts.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

> Red: What is this "read" you speak of


Don't know what you mean. 
I said if there are any problems, things in writing will prevail over verbal.
Personally, don't know exactly what the instruction for reroofing is, but don't think it says no underlayment is needed.

But a good point was made from andywrs, about the selling point of a quality install.


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

red_cedar said:


> Don't know what you mean.


Bad joke about roofers in general, especially since you didn't say the word read. I didn't see anything about covering shingles in their installation manual or warranty information found online.


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## twill59 (Aug 14, 2009)

Gerard does not Pro rate, ever


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## barnhartconst (May 6, 2015)

We are owners of Barnhart Construction Company in Monticello Iowa. We started installing Decra shingles in 2003 and have approximately 2600 sq installed in Eastern Iowa. We repeatedly had an issue with a leaking roof put on in 2009. The customer kept calling after a rain and telling us he had leaks. Not dripping leaks, but his sheeting was wet. He had a walk in attic and would go up and check it out after every rain. Our first inclination was that the water was blowing in the ridge vent. We replaced the ridge vent, still had a problem. We went back several times and figured out the water was tracking back and wicking down the screws. We filed a claim with Decra, they sent a technician down who said the install was good, and he didn't know why they were leaking. Decra's answer was that we used too big of a screw (#12). If you look closely at their installation instructions as they were printed in 2009, they wanted at least 4 screws not smaller than a #8, and for high wind areas they wanted 4 #12 screws. So, we were following the high wind instructions. They also said the screw put in at an angle was tearing the shingles. Once again, they specify the one screw being put in at a 45 degree angle. We sent letters from our attorney, to no avail. We ended up hiring an independent engineer to come look at the project. We had made an agreement with the customer that we would remove the Decra shingles and put on Malarkey asphalt shingles. The engineer's report states: "In our opinion, the water that infiltrates at the fastener group is coming from the lap splice, which is not designed to be a sealed condition. Water flowing down the face of the panel above returns around the bottom edge where the formed notch is encountered. The water stains show that most of the water that gets into the lap splice is directed to the bottom of the panels and escapes through the weep hole. However, at the top of the lap the panels are screwed together, held apart slightly by the applied aggregate. This narrow gap induces capillary attraction, actively drawing some of the water that gets into the lap up to the fasteners." I sent the information gathered by the engineer to Decra, of course there was no response. We have (obviously) discontinued installing this product and would recommend that others do not install it either. The company will not stand behind their product. I would be happy to forward a complete copy of the engineers report to anyone who wants to see it.


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## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

Regardless of manufacturer, no one company has a perfect record for manufacturing. Decra is tried and true, like it or not, sounds like a newer Decra product you had an issue with...hidden fasteners maybe? The traditional Decra tile and Shake profiles have been around for decades. We have been installing stone coated metal going back to 1978and had it on at six of our own homes. 

You did 2600 sqs and you had one re-occurring leak, sounds more like an installation issue than product but i can say for sure, haven't seen it. What product did you install?

I am no Decra fan boy, but it is a good roof system installed correctly. There are Decra, Metro, Gerard, Metals US profiles that are terrible and we don't promote or install those. They all have proven products though, just not all of them are good imo.


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## barnhartconst (May 6, 2015)

We installed the Decra Shingle. This is happening on more than one project. We have inspected a few others, including our own home and have found the same problem. We filed a claim with Decra on our house also, the rep they sent out said it also was a good install.

We have found that the issue occurs on 6/12 pitch and lower. We inspected several roofs that are steeper and it seems like gravity pulls the water away like it is meant to.

Those customers that don't have ready access to their attic won't see the problem. Like I said, it is not a dripping leak, but is wetting the sheeting. This is going to be a problem for those who have OSB.

None of the installs were installed over existing roofing. Everthing was installed over a clean deck with Ice and Water shield at the eaves and valleys and Titanium synthetic on the remainder.


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## barnhartconst (May 6, 2015)

I was going to try to show a picture, but the file won't upload.


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## dDubya (Feb 1, 2013)

I ran the Shingle profile one time. That was enough for me to dislike it. However we just did the Metro Cottage shingle today for the first time.

edit: This isn't to say that I don't like Decra. I really like the rest of their panels. Just not the Shingle.


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