# Green (Native) Lumber contract stipulations?



## NormW (Jun 4, 2009)

Im working on a contract for a two-floor 24x24 horse barn, using native lumber that is getting cut at a local mill.

I already did the drawings, permits been approved and pulled, and received a small deposit. Barn is going to be ballooned framed, and built on piers and beams. 

Anyone else have any experience, working with green lumber. Any recommendations on clauses to put in the contract, to help protect myself?


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

Why are you using green lumber?

Protect yourself from what?

Piers and beams??? So it has a floor in it that horses walk on?


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## NormW (Jun 4, 2009)

Customer is a Forester. Guess he did a Mill owner a favor of some sort, probably cruised a bunch of lots. Mill owner is going to pay him back, by cutting and donating the lumber he needs for this barn.

Customer basically is gonna supply all materials, for this job. I just have to supply the cut list.

I'v done the finish work on timber framed houses, that were built with native lumber. One job, they cut the lumber right off the property, and used a saw-mizer to mill it. Biggest and Best job I was ever on, but what a challenge to trim... everything twisted, split, you name it... I was a sub on that job, so I have no idea, how they worded the contract...

My butts gonna go in the sling on this one... so I want to be cautious.

Yeah, Mic, Horse has to step over the beam, and back onto dirt.. The way its built, a floor would be easy to add if they ever converted the barn... 2nd floor is 2x Rough sawn, random widths


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

ok got it...three words..."hold harmless agreement" ..have the owner sign it. it should state specifically he is to accept all liability for the use of uncertified materials.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

mics_54 said:


> Why are you using green lumber?


I think he means green, as in harvested with minimal impact to the forest, in a way that optimizes the wood output of a woodland.

I don't think he means green, as in sopping wet.

But I sure think the OP needs to clear this up for us


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## NormW (Jun 4, 2009)

Im not sure the proper terminology, but Im refering to locally harvested lumber, thats not going to be kiln dried. As far as how "sopping wet" the lumber is... remains to be seen :shutup:. 

Thanks mic, "hold harmless agreement"... that"ll gives me something to look into. Many thanks!:notworthy


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

In old houses and barns, they used to frame them and let them sit for a year to dry out and tighten up.

Green in his case means straight from the mill.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

NormW said:


> I already did the drawings, permits been approved and pulled


Will the lumber be graded? Some areas require graded and KD lumber, this could be an issue that may not come up until an inspection, at which point could result in some problems which would be difficult to resolve.

Some areas do not require agricultural buildings to have permits, or to follow many codes, but these areas are becoming few and far between.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

2" lumber can easily take as much as 3 months to dry down to 15 or 20 % moisture content. Bigger stuff, longer. And that means just sitting in a stacked rack, waiting.

Personally, I wouldn't touch the job without that drying time.


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

Nail the crap out of it with ring-shank nails. Don't know what the code was in York, SC in 93, but I built a whole addition with green lumber. It was allowed at that time.

Rocked it and had no problems after 5 years.


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## NormW (Jun 4, 2009)

They updated the codes here in Mass last year, guess in that update they pretty much outlawed green lumber. Local mills cried foul, so they made an amendment this spring, where the mills need to get "certified" to sell native lumber for outbuilding and residential use. Kind of surprised the mills got this through. 

The mill that is being used is certified. Advantages of the customer being a Forester... he knew some of the info we needed, in order to get the permits thru. Building Inspector hit me with shear walls :blink:, and this is Board and Batten, no plywood, that left me confused. Turns out the let in bracing used for balloon framing, counts for shear walls! Yay! Short circuited the Inspector there.

Timber framer told me drying time is 1 year per inch! :whistling Riiiggghhhhttt, I could see me telling the owners wife that. If she is like most wives, she will expect me to start after Thanksgiving, and be done well before Christmas. 

Guess balloon framing has an advantage over platform, when using green. It is a barn, nothing but wood, with a metal roof. Dont have to worry about sheetrock cracks, or nail pops. Should go easy. If I get them to agree to a "hold harmless clause" for using the native, I should be covered


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

I have done what you are asking for my own house while living in SW Colorado.
I took the trees off the property and had them milled into boards.

The accuracy of the milling will make this easy or a nightmare. 

The mill that I used was not all that accurate. the guy in the picture built the thing himself. But just imagine trying to frame a wall with material of varying widths and thicknesses. Your plate stock needs to be the best stock you have. Good in width and thickness. Studs can be off in thickness but of consistent width.

While framing this house I had to cull out material of similar widths for each wall. Some was 6 1/4 another was 5 3/4 and so on. Finding good plate stock was the hardest. Then framed it flush to the deck and let the outside roll. The board and batten covered many sins.

I strongly urge you to sticker stack all your stock even if you plan to start framing right away. In CO the air is real dry and the lumber lost wieght very quickly. I think the first percentage of moisture is very quick to evaporate, then it takes a while to lose the last. But let it lose all it can while it is sitting there.

The other thing to factor in that I always took for granted until this house is cutting every end of every board. There is no factory end. Amazing how much that one thing slows you down.

Another thing is blocking. With varying widths of studs all your blocks are special sizes. Another slow down that you never see coming till you are there.

This house was sided with my trees too. But I had that milled all at the same time and it was stickered in the basement the whole time I was framing. It had some mold problems that had to be bleached out prior to staining. Thank my wife and her girlfriend for all of that grunt work.

Heck that is all I can think of right now, other that that is was a piece of cake.:laughing:


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

We built a gazebo a few years ago using green lumber. (as in fresh cut from the tree) Native lumber was the selling point. We planed it on site and put it together. After 1 year I went back and had to replace just 2 pieces that warped out.

Not far from me a guy built his house with all green lumber, 1x sheathing and roof deck. I was in the house a few years after and he reports there were no problems.

If you think about, you don't have to go back too many generations and that is how they were built. Around here anyways. The old timers claimed there were no problems until you started mixing in dried lumber or the new fangled plywood. All green and the structure dries together as a unit.

Good Luck
Dave


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## NormW (Jun 4, 2009)

Gus Dering said:


> I strongly urge you to sticker stack all your stock even if you plan to start framing right away. In CO the air is real dry and the lumber lost wieght very quickly. I think the first percentage of moisture is very quick to evaporate, then it takes a while to lose the last. But let it lose all it can while it is sitting there.
> 
> The other thing to factor in that I always took for granted until this house is cutting every end of every board. There is no factory end. Amazing how much that one thing slows you down.
> 
> ...


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

As far as the stickers went, I borrowed them from the that old hippy in the pic. He was a cool guy and was willing to help out where ever he could. I just kept good track of them and brought them back as I was done with them.

I wouldn't bother with wax. You should have the thing up before there is a real problem there.

But it does take quite a bit of effort to unload a stack all that stuff. 

The next house I was able to just make a call and tell the driver where to drop the load. Man I felt like I was relieving myself in tall cotton that day.:clap:


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Maybe an older guy from the NW can chime in, I've heard from others that they used to use green doug fir to frame houses around here.


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## naptown CR (Feb 20, 2009)

DavidC said:


> We built a gazebo a few years ago using green lumber. (as in fresh cut from the tree) Native lumber was the selling point. We planed it on site and put it together. After 1 year I went back and had to replace just 2 pieces that warped out.
> 
> Not far from me a guy built his house with all green lumber, 1x sheathing and roof deck. I was in the house a few years after and he reports there were no problems.
> 
> ...


This is correct old houses were framed with green lumber and some even today but is more of a west coast thing. I did one back in the precambrian age with green lumber. And by green I dont mean the current meaning.
I asked for lumber to be delivered on Wednesday trees were cut down on Monday milled on Tuesday and delivered on Wednesday. When I got it the lumber was full dimension, (A 2x4 was 2" x4") As gus said not precut so both ends had to be squared and cut. and the worst was it weighed a ton. You can figure at least adding 25 -30% more time in extra effort and jobsite milling. If there are no interior finishes you won't need to wory about shrinkage as it will shrink as a unit.
My back hurts just remembering that job.
If my recollection serves me I was building with Larch



jhark123 said:


> Maybe an older guy from the NW can chime in, I've heard from others that they used to use green doug fir to frame houses around here.


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## robin303 (Nov 15, 2009)

Gus Dering said:


> I have done what you are asking for my own house while living in SW Colorado.
> I took the trees off the property and had them milled into boards.
> 
> The accuracy of the milling will make this easy or a nightmare.
> ...


Thats nice. :thumbsup:


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