# Flagstone patio re-point.



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Got this one underway...dustless saw cutting, relaying loose stone, pointing and sealing. Also have a front stoop to repair and some foundation patchwork.

Pressure washed everything first, then the real mess begins :laughing:

This job is a real pain in the knees...I bull chit you not :cowboy:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

At least you dont have to set up a roof set up!


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## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

How many of those are hollow? Most jobs like that I do, 40% or more have lost there bond. I think it's because the bluestone heats up so much in the sun and moves around.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

artisanstone said:


> How many of those are hollow? Most jobs like that I do, 40% or more have lost there bond. I think it's because the bluestone heats up so much in the sun and moves around.


A lot are hollow and no doubt very common with this type patio. I talked to the owner regarding his expectations and he's fine with leaving the stones that are tight, but would like the hand loose ones reset. This patio is 26 years old and most of the pointing is original. The hollow sounds have been around for years he says and based on my experience I believe him. I also informed him the any future mortar failure should be viewed as the sacrificial lamb at work and maintenance, the necessary evil.

I have a love hate relationship with cleft form variegated...it's looks nice but wet set with wide joints in freeze/thaw zones is mostly a recipe for a disaster of upkeep.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

The patio is now mostly prepped but since gargantuan rains are in the forecast, I won't start pointing until Monday. 

The owner would like the mortar color to match the chimney...looks like white cement with some bar sand, probably 4 to 1.

A new house just popped up across the street after a small rancher was torn down...friggin pool house is bigger than my digs, sucks being poor :laughing:

Got to see my leathery friends again on my way in...they're looking at a wet weekend for sure!


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Hey SS what hose are you using from the grinder to the 2 1/2 inch hose on the shop vac?


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

artisanstone said:


> How many of those are hollow? Most jobs like that I do, 40% or more have lost there bond. I think it's because the bluestone heats up so much in the sun and moves around.



I would agree with both you and S.S.'s assertions as to why the bond eventually gives way. I have only been successful in getting two clients to pop for what I feel is as close to a bullet proof installation because of the extra cost. My method is to lay all stones out, face side down, and I have a 160 cfm compressor with a 600 lb sand hopper. I blast the backsides with a course aggregate called Black Beauty. I try to also,hit the edges. Prior to installation,paint the backs and edges with a bonding agent. I have to admit,at this stage of the game,it would take an act of Congress to get me to spend that much time doing "prayer bone" work though.:laughing:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

JBM said:


> Hey SS what hose are you using from the grinder to the 2 1/2 inch hose on the shop vac?


The Bosch 5M hose...sometimes you can catch them on sale at Amazon for $19.00, reg about $50. I bought a couple on sale and one at full retail, I'm waiting for another sale.

https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-VAC005-5-Meter-Vacuum-Hose/dp/B0000AV78B


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

fjn said:


> I would agree with both you and S.S.'s assertions as to why the bond eventually gives way. I have only been successful in getting two clients to pop for what I feel is as close to a bullet proof installation because of the extra cost. My method is to lay all stones out, face side down, and I have a 160 cfm compressor with a 600 lb sand hopper. I blast the backsides with a course aggregate called Black Beauty. I try to also,hit the edges. Prior to installation,paint the backs and edges with a bonding agent. I have to admit,at this stage of the game,it would take an act of Congress to get me to spend that much time doing "prayer bone" work though.:laughing:


Damn Fred, all you gotta do is back butter them with a flexible thinset or straight up Portland slurry...that sound like way too much work :blink:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

superseal said:


> Damn Fred, all you gotta do is back butter them with a flexible thinset or straight up Portland slurry...that sound like way too much work :blink:




It is a whole bunch of work.:laughing: While it definitely is an overkill,the roughened surface coupled up with the bonding agent is a belt and suspenders approach. The saw cut edges are in my opinion the ***** in the armour especially with wide joints. Two problems result from that scenario,the smooth surface stymies mortar bond and the wide joints shrink from stone edges,allowing water to enter at the interface of stone and mortar.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

The patio is all pointed up and I'm moist curing the chit out of it...this thing gets direct sun all day and the stone cooks too much for my liking to be pointing it up under those conditions.

You either wait for a cloudy day or you pitch a tent  friggin' tomorrow and Thursday their calling for 92 degs.

Anyhoot, my customer is chucking a bunch of other work my way while I'm here...more pressure washing and sealer work, chimneys and front wall, more patchwork, etc...


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## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

looks good.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Looks great ,love the white joints.:thumbsup:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

On to the front stoop...the riser is all screwed up and there's a cracked stone I'll be replacing. Saw cut all the joints so it won't look like a patch and I'll float on a smooth riser and Thoro it. 

Of course it gets a sealer when I'm done.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Parged the step riser with rapid set mortar, sponged it out to a flat plane and followed up with a coat of thorolastic...still needs another coat along with cleaning and sealing the stone but it's looking a little better given the cards I was dealt. 

I wrapped up the week here cleaning a stone retaining wall, a nice canvass umbrella that was all mildewed up, parging and coating the addition foundation, leveling a walkway and replacing cracked stones, setting a stone for the grill pad and few other little things.

More work coming up here as well...cleaning and sealing chimneys, some new stainless chase covers and caps, front wall cleaning and sealing...he just keeps adding more.

Three straight days above 90 and humid...today, cloudy and cool!


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

That riser came out sharp,like the cream color ! We must of sent you the 90,s ,we had it early in the week. Now back in the upper 50,s .:clap:


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

superseal said:


> Damn Fred, all you gotta do is back butter them with a flexible thinset or straight up Portland slurry...that sound like way too much work :blink:


I don't put down bluestone very often, but I have been doing it the same way you describe fora while. I usually use Laticrete MVIS for the back buttering. Just curious what thinset you're using?

Oh, and nice work, as usual.......:thumbsup:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

jomama said:


> I don't put down bluestone very often, but I have been doing it the same way you describe fora while. I usually use Laticrete MVIS for the back buttering. Just curious what thinset you're using?
> 
> Oh, and nice work, as usual.......:thumbsup:


Laticrete 254 platinum and thank you!


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

superseal said:


> Laticrete 254 platinum and thank you!


I've used the same product many times and I don't think theres a better product for thin bed stone setting.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

A lot of rain this week but managed to get the washing and sealing of the patio done along with everything else and I'm measuring up some chimneys for the next phase of this job. 

A little old historic building not too far from this job has a rich little history ...in case anyone's interested. 

http://www.historicnewtownsquare.org/histori…/square-tavern/

The cleaning agent used was Prosoco 600 detergent...much safer than muriatic acid, then a neutralizer of water...allowed to dry and then SureKlean siloxane PD sealer.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Like the historical side shoot ! You guys got lots of history on the E .coast !


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Saw this on a DIY forum yesterday.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

And here is the 'store bought" version that comes from your back yard.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Also,this is the U.S. version of an automated pointing tool.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

My pointing for flatwork is called Wayne.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

JBM said:


> My pointing for flatwork is called Wayne.




:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Mine is called Matt,Sam,George,John,Andrew or Kyle.:clap:


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## Jughead (May 31, 2017)

artisanstone said:


> How many of those are hollow? Most jobs like that I do, 40% or more have lost there bond. I think it's because the bluestone heats up so much in the sun and moves around.


The effort the OP put forth is inspiring and the stones look great.

Sadly my input involves substantial investment before the stones are laid, as in a 4" concrete sub-base that the stone would be thin-setted to as with tile. This way the grout joints are permanent and it acts together as a system, as in a tiled floor done correctly.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Jughead said:


> The effort the OP put forth is inspiring and the stones look great.
> 
> Sadly my input involves substantial investment before the stones are laid, as in a 4" concrete sub-base that the stone would be thin-setted to as with tile. This way the grout joints are permanent and it acts together as a system, as in a tiled floor done correctly.




You offer an interesting perspective. From viewing the posted photographs,I assumed there is a concrete base beneath the stone patio.

If not,that is problematic. The rule of thumb I'm familiar with is this,no concrete below,not mortared joints. Concrete base,mortared base.

Of course,S.S. is working with what is there,he had no option but to do the best he could based on the hand he was dealt.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

This is on a 4" thick concrete base with rebar grid. You can't just thinset variegated natural cleft 1" flagstone as the stones vary in thickness way too much. In order to thinset an entire patio you would need a thermal bluestone which is gauged to actual thickness. Most applications of this style stone over a concrete base is achieved using a 1 1/2" to 2" mud bed on top of the concrete to take up these inconsistencies...this is where the bonding issues arise. 

The only reason I was able to use thinset to rework the stones is because I surfaced grinded the exact amount necessary to achieve bond and height.

In other words, it's impossible to set these stones like tile...go to your local stoneyard and looks at the pallets...you'll know exactly what I mean.


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## Jughead (May 31, 2017)

Good advice and a great job!


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