# Possible Behr paint problem



## Slapiton (Oct 18, 2007)

*Behr Paint sucks*

I agree with everyone about behr. I painted a hallway and that was all I needed to do to find out that paint is no good.It goes on thick and then runs and makes a mess. I have had really good results with valspar signature paints. Goes on smooth and covers well.Theres also a little hardware store where I live and they sell a paint called Best Look. Just finished a house with it and I really was impressed with it. Rolled on smooth,covered well and splattered very little.


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## painterofeveryt (Apr 8, 2005)

Not sure why You all hate it so bad,I have used it before,got good results,customer loved the job,and just for the record I usually use grahams ceramic ..............


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

painterofeveryt said:


> Not sure why You all hate it so bad,*I have used it before,got good results,customer loved the job*,and just for the record I usually use grahams ceramic ..............


Well..."job"...singular, there's the thing
Pretty much any product that "sucks", doesn't "suck" all the time

Let's face it, if, for example, Kilz2 failed every single time it was used, it wouldn't be out there anymore
But a (horrifyingly high) 20% - 25% failure rate means 75% - 80% of the jobs went OK
(Even at 50% hey you're 50/50)
So there's craploads of people out there with great Kilz2 success stories
You could use it for months, or years w/o a problem (but I doubt it)

But when it catches up to you, and it will...it sucks
I wouldn't take the chance on Kilz2...I can't recommend it...I wouldn't use it if it was free

Same with Behr...though it's hard to put a number on it like Kilz2, as the bad parts of it are much more than just mere total coating failure
It _can_ go on OK
It _can_ not look too bad
It _can_ stick to the wall
It _can_ hide, it _can_ cover...
Though it does none of these well
So in anything less than perfect conditions (perfect for behr), it starts veering out of the "OK" lane and heading into the "sucks" ditch rather quickly

As for the final finish, I suppose that's more of a personal thing, and I suppose sometimes it could look OK
But one of my favorite repaint upsells (on wall only jobs) is to paint over Behr trim
I've asked the customer if I can paint over the (obviously Behr or sim.) trim with the same color but in Impervo
Even though they are "perfectly satisfied" with the old trim paint
It's fun when _they_ can even tell the difference from across the room


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## 98mustangguy (Sep 6, 2007)

well I used to use Dutch Boy then switched to BM, but in the last few years I will use any paint if a customer really wants. We have sprayed easily in excess of 1,000 gallons of Behr in the last few years and I have no complaints as far as there paint goes


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## chris n (Oct 14, 2003)

*Mr*



Larman said:


> Hindsight is 20/20. I can tell you this, I lost money on my most recent paint job because of Behr paint. I could not get their white simi-gloss to cover over white semi-gloss. It took three coats to paint all window trim and moldings. Im not exactly sure what Behrs costs, around $16-18 a gallon? I think it would be an easy sell to tell the customer to "upgrade" to BM superspec for around $18-20 a gallon. I think if you approach it the right way they will go with the better paint.



I had this EXACT same problem just yesterday,finally convinced then to switch for the rest of the job after showing the results of the Behr.


"What if they INSIST on Behr?

Do you walk?"

From now on,absolutly!Never again will I use this crap that belongs in the woods as someone pointed out( not even sure the EPA would approve of that):laughing:


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Again I'll ask...

What is it in the Behr paint formulation that makes it so frustrating to use?

To me...the last time I used their flat interior, it "felt" like I was using an oil base product, in that is was thick and sticky, yet sagged easily. I've never seen a latex flat sag/run on a wall like that (unless of course I'd thinned it).


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

Steve Richards said:


> What is it in the Behr paint formulation that makes it so frustrating to use?


I don't know
I never felt it was worth my time to find out exactly
It's not like HD is going to have a website devoted why Behr can be hard to use, or be forthcoming with the formulation of their paint
I do know it was formulated to meet certain Target HD Customer Values/Points
Maybe that will help...

1) It has to look like the chip while wet and in the can
Stupid as this sounds, it's true
Think of the average HD customer opening up the can of paint at home and seeing it a shade off...they will freak...they will have returns up the ying/yang

HD knows it will be not be sold by knowledgeable paint people and they won't take the time-nor does HD want them to take the time-to educate the customers
HD only wants them to get as much product as possible out the door as fast as possible

2) It has to "cover/hide"
Now, this has different meanings to the average HD customer than to a professional painter (they want it to hide the dirt they aren't cleaning off because they are painting...ya know, why clean it if we are painting anyway), but sufficed to say that this criteria means a crap load of... (I couldn't tell you what they use for sure, I suppose it's titanium dioxide), and that affect the pigments and other qualities of the paints

Oddly enough, one of the things this affects adversely is "hiding" in certain colors
I can't say why, I can only say that everything is a compromise, and if you load up on one corner, the other corners are affected

3) It has to dry quickly
This is at the expense of pretty much anything like leveling, lap marks, roller marks, picture framing/hat-banding...none of those things are important to their average HD paint customer

4) It has to be cheap enough so HD can charge what there average customers perceive as "a good price", yet still maintain a high profit margin (HD does not make money on "volume" alone, as they allow their customers to believe)
This means LOTS of fillers
Again, I couldn't tell you exactly what, I can only make an educated guess it's cheap clay
Obviously this also affect the paint qualities we appreciate

This all fits into HD CPV approach to selling stuff
Customer Perceived Value
They feel their average customer won't perceive the value of maintaining a wet edge, lack of roller/lap marks or hat-banding, leveling characteristics, or resistance to burnishing...etc...etc...

They will want an inexpensive paint that hides well and dries quickly, and looks the same wet and in the can as it does on the chip

They do not perceive value to their time or effort
As un-enlightened DIYers (behr-using that is), they expect it to take time and to effort...and to suck...
So as long as it doesn't take three weeks to paint the living room, and doesn't suck enough for them to off themselves (now, remember, they don't know it's not supposed to be that bad), they are happy customers

There ya go there's more I'm sure
But basically you have a paint that meets specific desires of the marketing dept. for a product aimed at un-educated occasional painting DIYers that don't know how to paint or what paint should do or look like when finished, but know they want it to dry fast and hide the dirt they are painting over, and it better look like the chip when it's wet and in the can


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## chris n (Oct 14, 2003)

slickshift said:


> I don't know
> I never felt it was worth my time to find out exactly
> It's not like HD is going to have a website devoted why Behr can be hard to use, or be forthcoming with the formulation of their paint
> I do know it was formulated to meet certain Target HD Customer Values/Points
> ...


Now,THAT pretty well sums it up,thanks!:clap:


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I did a Bear-formulation internet search w/no luck...but I intend to devote my life to studying why EXACTLY Behr sucks.

So someday when someone asks me to use it, I can say: "NO...they make it using inferior _________, that they (probably) get from China."


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## Ranger Rohland (Jan 28, 2005)

*Behr MSDS*

Just go to www.behr.com

Products.

MSDS.


You make the call!


Tom Rohland, Jr.
Ranger Painting & Pressure Cleaning, Inc.

_The Personal Attention Your Home Deserves_


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Ahaa!

Behr top-line interior flat:
Anhydrous aluminum silicate 66402-68-4 5 - 10 by weight 
Non-hazardous ingredients 30-60 by weight 
Titanium dioxide 13463-67-7 10 - 30 by weight 
Acrylic polymer(s) No data 10 - 30 by weight 
Nepheline Syenite 37244-96-5 10 - 30 by weight 
Ethylene glycol 107-21-1 1 - 5 by weight 
2-ethylhexyl benzoate 5444-75-7 1 - 5 by weight 
Palygorskite 12174-11-7 0.1-1 by weight 
Aluminum hydroxide (Al(OH)3) 21645-51-2 1-5 by weight 
Silica, amorphous, precipitated and gel 112926-00-8 1 - 5 by weight 

Ben Moore regal Wall:
Titanium Dioxide
Y N 25.0 013463-67-7 10 mg/M3 15 mg/M3 N/E N/E N/A
Silica, Amorphous
Y N 5.0 007631-86-9 10 MG/M3 N/E N/E N/E N/A
Diatomaceous Earth
Y N 5.0 061790-53-2 10 mg/M3 5 mg/M3 N/E N/E N/A
Crystalline silica
Y N .5 014808-60-7 .05 mg/M .1 mg/M3 N/E N/E N/A
Carbon black
Y N 5.0 001333-86-4 3.5mg/M3 3.5mg/M3 N/E N/E N/A
Hydrous Aluminum Silicates
Y N 5.0 001332-58-7 2 Mg/M3 5 mg/M3 N/E N/E N/A

As soon as I complete a degree in chemistry...I'll (finally) have my answer!

Thanks Tom!


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## 98mustangguy (Sep 6, 2007)

What exactly do you want to know about the formulas? I can tell you many things about those but as you see everyting varies all depending on the sheen ect. And obviously the Behr you looked up is an acyrlic and the bm is not


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

98mustangguy said:


> ...the Behr you looked up is an acyrlic and the bm is not


I don't see it


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

98mustangguy said:


> the Behr you looked up is an acyrlic and the bm is not


BM Regal wall satin is an acrylic


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

BM http://www.benjaminmoore.com/bmpswe...+Repository/18002&_pageLabel=fc_productsspecs

vs

Behr http://www.behr.com/behrx/act/view/products_detail?prodNum=1050&catId=19


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

Steve Richards said:


> BM Regal wall satin is an acrylic


Ayup


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