# 2 coats of primer on ceiling rather than paint?



## Zeebo

Some of the new construction painters in my area (Mississauga, Ontario, Canada) use two coats of white primer on new construction drywall ceilings rather than one coat of primer + 2 coats of paint. So they use primer rather than paint.

My client, as a way to keep costs down, wants me to paint their drywall ceiling with 1 coat of primer and 1 coat of white paint.

So my question for you is what is the problem with using 2 coats of white primer on a new construction ceiling???

Zeebo


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## LennyV-NHSNOLA

Primer doesn't normally cover as well as paint. It's good for sealing and creating a uniform surface for later painting, but not for covering. Even the "stain killing" primers will usually show a dark stain through the primer but it creates a new surface for paint to go over and then the stain won't bleed through the primer into the paint.

I had a recent ceiling paint job where the owner did the first job himself and he was told to just use Kilz II and do two coats. It looked like crap and I could see the joint seams through the primer.


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## KENNEDY

If you have access to Pittsburgh Paints their Wall Supreme Flat is self priming over bare wallboard and you don't have to worry about coverage, or having only primer, yellow over time.


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## Joewho

Even if the primer can be applied so that it looks good, it won't stay that way. The seams and joints will show through pretty soon. Primer is not intended to have a very good "finish" surface. Its' just there to seal and bond the finish paint.


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## Richard

we've hit on this a lot, but yeah...primer, primes-finish paint, finishes

you can get away with the coverage, but since there is no finish paint, you'll notice over time and the primer will fail in different ways

why not go with the 1 coat of primer and 1 coat of finish--that's what I always do (on the ceiling) if it's new. The cost will be minimal, since they make contractor grade paints. The time would be the same too. But the peace of mind is the most important thing:thumbsup:


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## Joewho

I saw a guy get pro-mar 400, cut it almost in half and spray it as a primer. Kind of a mess, as he used duct tape to plastic the windows etc, and all that water was making the duct tape come off.
Full strenght for the top coat. S/W claims that the pro-mar line is self priming. It's a cheap way to go. I would rather use this method than just leaving primer as the top coat. In reality though, I've never done it either way.


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## Zeebo

Paintguy26 said:


> we've hit on this a lot, but yeah...primer, primes-finish paint, finishes
> 
> you can get away with the coverage, but since there is no finish paint, you'll notice over time and the primer will fail in different ways
> 
> why not go with the 1 coat of primer and 1 coat of finish--that's what I always do (on the ceiling) if it's new. The cost will be minimal, since they make contractor grade paints. The time would be the same too. But the peace of mind is the most important thing:thumbsup:


Good suggestion....this is what I was going to do.


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## Brushslingers

To tell the truth.. in the 7 states i've worked in on the east coast... everyone buys ceiling white flat from whatever store is close and sprays (1) one coat on the ceilings. Period. Never actually worked another mans job in 20 years that actually primed ceilings and two coated em.


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## Traditions

brush, I'm with you! I always 1 coat ceilings. Look great. I have been back to houses I've painted 10 years ago and still look good to me. Hell, there are contractors around here that don't even paint the ceilings. Just leave them stomped. There are builders around that like me because I put 1 coat on them.


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## Traditions

That is one coat on stomped ceilings though. Smooth is a different story. Even orange peel is hard to get away with one coat.


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## AAPaint

I don't agree with leaving just primer on anything. I don't like doing one coat on anything but ceilings. If there is a place to do only one coat, a ceiling is it. However, I do a primer and one finish on ceilings in new construction or previously un-painted. 

Ceiling paint is not subject to the abuse of wall or trim paints, and the only purpose of it in most cases is to make the ceiling appear fresh and bright. Unless you are doing something with colors or a sheen, a ceiling isn't the best place to have multiple heavy coats, especially in the case of roof leaks or popcorn/poorly applied textures because the more weight in layers of paint, the better the chance of catastrophic failure should something go wrong in the future.

Bathroom and kitchen ceilings, I recommend a semi-gloss paint (or a low sheen at least) and two coats for better protection against moisture problems from the inside.


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## metomeya

In my experience all primers don't cover well.

Also the stuff labeled "ceiling paint" doesn't cover well either.


I would go with 2 coats of a flat wall paint.

Or if its a new ceiling 1 coat of 'high hiding primer' and 1 coat of the flat wall white because the primer will seal and keep the paint from bleeding into the drywall leaving a thinner film, and uneven coverage.


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## 4thGeneration

Zeebo said:


> Some of the new construction painters in my area (Mississauga, Ontario, Canada) use two coats of white primer on new construction drywall ceilings rather than one coat primer + 2 coats of paint. So they use primer rather than paint.
> 
> My client, as a way to keep costs down, wants me to paint their drywall ceiling with 1 coat primer and 1 coat white paint.
> 
> So my question for you is what is the problem with using 2 coats of white primer on a new construction ceiling???
> 
> Zeebo


If they want cheap my response is "I am not your man" because if they try and get cheap with the paint, which is not near as costly as paint, they are not ideal customers to work for. Just tell them to go get some spray jockey and water paint.


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## 4thGeneration

*Now for the real product quote I give homeowners.*



Zeebo said:


> Some of the new construction painters in my area (Mississauga, Ontario, Canada) use two coats of white primer on new construction drywall ceilings rather than one coat primer + 2 coats of paint. So they use primer rather than paint.
> 
> My client, as a way to keep costs down, wants me to paint their drywall ceiling with 1 coat primer and 1 coat white paint.
> 
> So my question for you is what is the problem with using 2 coats of white primer on a new construction ceiling???
> 
> Zeebo


I only contract high end repaints, so this might be out of the park with some clients.
Everything is cut free hand and roll.
On ceilings and walls-BenjaminMoore Regal First coat.
Finish schedule for ceilings.Two coats BenjaminMoore Regal Aquavelvet Eggshell.
Finish Schedule for Walls. Two coats BenjaminMoore Regal Matte
Caulk-BenjaminMoore Moorlastic lifetime Urathane Acrylic sealant. 

If you are asking why caulk on repaints. The answer is that I always caulk a bead on edges of trim to walls to give laser line edges as well as recaulking all the window frames to the window returns.


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## Dave Mac

if he wants to go the cheap unproffessional way, just put one thick coat of cheap builders paint spray it, backroll it, spray it again, finished.


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## JackiTrades

Zeebo,
You do not always get good coverage, even with a good primer with one coat. Primer tends to cover good with two coats. One coat paint. Use good materials, better coverage. If you do this work for these people, they are probably not concerned with how their ceiling looks. Some clients do not care. Also, no warranty with this. Not best pratices.


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## painterofeveryt

moved into our house up in gaylord mi. and the ceiling was primed only back in 95 still looks great until we painted over it,the primer was devoe 50801 this stuff is the shizzle ! use it alot up here spray on one thick coat and backroll it! looks great for years


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## DPainting

painterofeveryt said:


> moved into our house up in gaylord mi. and the ceiling was primed only back in 95 still looks great until we painted over it,the primer was devoe 50801 this stuff is the shizzle ! use it alot up here spray on one thick coat and backroll it! looks great for years


I started using Devoe's primers about a year and half ago and let me tell you......I love it! It seriously covers awesome and even for that matter. 

If your trying to keep costs down on new drywall ceilings I'd suggest using that Devoe or similar and then a shot of SuperSpec white. I spray them out anyway and it looks nice and even in the end.


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## BobbyD

The two coats primer on ceilings technique is done for savings in labour and paint. When the house is primed you can recoat the washroom and kitchen ceilings the same day. I'm assuming the rest of the house is stippled/textured ceilings. When you return to finish paint the entire house the tiles and cabinets are usually installed. This saves time not having to cover everything. The coverage is not great with primer, especially watered down. Also, is there not a drywall checkout performed before painting? Sometimes repairs are made to the ceilings and you'll have to touch them up. One coat primer and one coat flat will cover much better and touch up as well. At the end of the day you can hold your head up high knowing you did it right not cutting any corners:thumbup:


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## zico

*Zinsser 2 Coats*

We use Zinsser Oderless, on ceilings. Two coats is needed and you are left with great coverage and a non-yellowing surface. However this is not an inexpensive approach. 

When painting new drywall and we are painting a number of rooms, we use BM's MooreSpec priomer on both walls and ceiling. We then use 2 coats of the specified finish paint. 

I really have never found a singe coat of anything to be sufficient


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## steve-in-kville

One time long, long ago, I used regular oil Kilz on a ceiling that was water damaged. The ceiling was the little acoustic snap-in 12" square tiles that get stapled to furring strips. It was a bathroom and looked like new when I was finished. 

I would never try that on a larger room. As mentioned before, unless someone's climbing the walls, the ceiling doesn't need the protection that a wall does.

steve


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## 2guns and a hammer

LennyV-NHSNOLA said:


> Primer doesn't normally cover as well as paint. It's good for sealing and creating a uniform surface for later painting, but not for covering. Even the "stain killing" primers will usually show a dark stain through the primer but it creates a new surface for paint to go over and then the stain won't bleed through the primer into the paint.
> 
> I had a recent ceiling paint job where the owner did the first job himself and he was told to just use Kilz II and do two coats. It looked like crap and I could see the joint seams through the primer.


 If your seeing tape joints through the primer... that's a drywall finishing error. Primer just shows those errors that need fixed. As far as primer as a topcoat..it may not be traditional but 2 coats of the bullseye 321 looks pretty darn good when everything is done right. I've had it on my ceilings for 10yrs and it still looks like it did on day one.


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## avenge

2guns and a hammer said:


> If your seeing tape joints through the primer... that's a drywall finishing error. Primer just shows those errors that need fixed. As far as primer as a topcoat..it may not be traditional but 2 coats of the bullseye 321 looks pretty darn good when everything is done right. I've had it on my ceilings for 10yrs and it still looks like it did on day one.


Is this mysterious Bullseye 321 something another 16 years into the future?


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## 2guns and a hammer

Joewho said:


> Even if the primer can be applied so that it looks good, it won't stay that way. The seams and joints will show through pretty soon. Primer is not intended to have a very good "finish" surface. Its' just there to seal and bond the





avenge said:


> Is this mysterious Bullseye 321 something another 16 years into the future?


No not at all. Is there an actual reason why not to use it? Or is it just traditional to prime then paint? I'm asking about ceilings only...not walls. I read earlier about tape joints showing through the primer. Isn't that a drywall finish problem and not primer. I'm just curious to how ceiling paint hold tape joints together or even hides those issues?


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## VinylHanger

The point is this thread is from 2006.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## 2guns and a hammer

2guns and a hammer said:


> No not at all. Is there an actual reason why not to use it? Or is it just traditional to prime then paint? I'm asking about ceilings only...not walls. I read earlier about tape joints showing through the primer. Isn't that a drywall finish problem and not primer. I'm just curious to how ceiling paint hold tape joints together or even hides those issues?


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## 2guns and a hammer

OK. I get 2006 part. I Googled a question ...this is where I ended up at.
My question is about using 2 coats bullseye 321 primer as a finish on ceilings without using a flat ceiling paint. And the reason I'm asking is because I subbed out the drywall hanging and finishing because I have other projects going on and was attempting to a hat trick. The homeowns are not happy because of all the seams are showing and there are nail pops everywhere.. and the subcontractor is making every excuse possible including that ceiling paint will hide everything. Sorry for being 16yrs late here lol


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## avenge

2guns and a hammer said:


> OK. I get 2006 part. I Googled a question ...this is where I ended up at.
> My question is about using 2 coats bullseye 321 primer as a finish on ceilings without using a flat ceiling paint. And the reason I'm asking is because I subbed out the drywall hanging and finishing because I have other projects going on and was attempting to a hat trick. The homeowns are not happy because of all the seams are showing and there are nail pops everywhere.. and the subcontractor is making every excuse possible including that ceiling paint will hide everything. Sorry for being 16yrs late here lol


And it's Bullseye 1-2-3. All primers are meant to be top coated. Unless it's a drywall finishing issue a good primer would cover Bullseye isn't one of them.


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## hdavis

This is worth starting your own thread.

Ceiling paint doesn't hide nail pops. Without seeing the seam issue, I can't comment on that. Ceiling paint is just a cheap flat paint, and defects aren't as noticeable with a flat paint.

Can you just leave the ceiling in primer? Sure. 123 is higher sheen than flat paint, so it will still show more.


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## 2guns and a hammer

avenge said:


> And it's Bullseye 1-2-3. All primers are meant to be top coated. Unless it's a drywall finishing issue a good primer would cover Bullseye isn't one of them.


 hdavis... thank you sir.
You are correct it does have a higher sheen and it doesn't forgive as much as flat. And yes when no issues are present it can be used as a topcoat finish. Thanks for validating what I already knew to be a fact. I apologize for such a dumb topic of discussion. One more thought though to all contractors...the homeowners deserve quality work and should get what they pay for...take pride in the customers smile at the end of a well done job...that's priceless!!!


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## hdavis

Avenge and I don't use ceiling paints, since they aren't very good. A quality flat or flat - paint is a better choice, IMO.

Possibly a flat+, depending on how good the drywall job is.


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## avenge

2guns and a hammer said:


> One more thought though to all contractors...the homeowners deserve quality work and should get what they pay for...take pride in the customers smile at the end of a well done job...that's priceless!!!


My clients get the same standard as always it's not based on what they're paying I don't do discounted projects. Getting what they paid for many times equals bad quality those aren't my clients.

What's priceless is full payment upon completion, no punch list, no callbacks, referrals and repeat customers.


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## 2guns and a hammer

Sure. I completely get the flat finish. 
But some homeowners want a high sheen...even as much as a high gloss. A month ago I sprayed out a God awful blue green. Homeowners want what they want. 
I understand that most primers call for a top coat. I've let the bullseye fly because it's served me well in the past and I've had no issues until this particular sub out job. 
Would I recommend my way of doing things to those that only do flat finish ceilings....heck no. It's tricky and time consuming and I charge more for those reasons. 
My frustration is no matter the method of application...it's a procedural process. Each steps effects the next step. And unfortunately with drywall it'll often involve the finisher having to come back and fix whatever needed.
Don't get mad at the next guy if it's your error and don't hold up a dollar for .10... Just get it did and move on. 
I'm not selling anyone bullseye primer. 
And I'm not to old to hear other ppls opinions or ask a question. 
Thanks for the feed back!


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## 2guns and a hammer

A happy customer with full payment in hand and happy to give it will always be a well done job. 
A pissed off customer with full payment in hand after you had to jump hoops can be your demise.


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## Djea3

2guns and a hammer said:


> I subbed out the drywall hanging and finishing because I have other projects going on and was attempting to a hat trick. The homeowns are not happy because of all the seams are showing and there are nail pops everywhere


Stop the job. The sub is the problem. any nail that popped is not considered a fastener in the code, period (same as if paper is blown though by screw head). It therefore does not meet screw pattern by code. Many drywall subs today attempt a ONE PASS finish with mud. Some even attempt to spray the seams run the tape and then spray the texture in one day. It is NOT POSSIBLE to do and have any quality to the product. Eventually even the tape will fail and screw coverage pop loose.

Tape mud is mixed thinner and used to draw the tape TIGHT to the wall as it dries. It requires two more coats over it. Read on:

My neighbor just retired from Union drywall job where he and his crew averaged about 10,000 square feet a day. this is what he taught me. 
It takes 4 days to drywall normally. Sheetrock up day one.
Seams and first pass with 4-6 inch knife, corners, fill screws day 2. 
Second pass with 8 inch knife, reset corners, 12 inch knife pass on smooth finish surfaces day 3.
12 inch knife and touch up any corners early morning, texture and knock down 100% last pass smooth surfaces. wet sand as necessary when set. Set up FANS then:

THREE DAYS LATER PAINT CAN BEGIN. Read the specification on all sheetrock and mud products and paints, 3 days cure of all mud products is REQUIRED before paint. I never allow paint on any of my jobs until the 3 day cure. This includes HOT MUD. Hot mud sets and hardens but stays wet and not cured until 3 days!

If you can feel the tape joint with your hand you will see it. If they tried to finish in one day then they skipped the processes, the mud should DRY between coats or there will be issues with the finish. Stop your job and reject the mud job in writing. Give the sub 24 hours to come up with a "recovery plan" in writing. You can use several terms but "does not meet manufacturer defined methods and work not performed to 'workman like standards'.

No way I would touch it until it is done properly, redoing mud work after paint causes bubbles to surface in the mud. makes it worse not better.


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## hdavis

Level 3 doesn't get you a smooth ceiling.

Nail/screw pops are on the drywall guys.

If you want a smooth ceiling, specify level 5 or take your chances.

Ceiling gets whatever sheen your customer agreed to.


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## 2guns and a hammer

OK. That is very informative for sure. I especially like the way you worded the recovery plan ...workman like standards. 
Here's the problem...Like I said this was a sub job and it was 5 rooms and 45 boards. The sub sent 2 different guys. The first spent a week in a daze and got everything hung and supposedly 2nd coated...Then ghosted to California. 
So the sub sent a 2nd guy. This one 3rd coated and sanded. He tells me and the homeowners that everything is good to go. 
I already expect some minor touch ups but I prime a first coat. 
There literally are over 200 nail pops and all the seams are visible. 
I contact the sub. He sends same guy. He recoats and sands. He tells me and homeowners again it's all good and ready to paint. It gets primed again. It still looks horrible. Wtf?
I read the comment about trying to mud over the paint. And I completely understand why another contractor wouldn't touch it.
But that's where I'm at with this...








I already know I'm going to have to finish this out myself... here's my question:
The ceilings have been primed twice and there are seams and nail pops still showing. I think I can skim it and feather the edges to make it look good but I definitely question the integrity of the bond. Any suggestions??


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## 2guns and a hammer




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## hdavis

If you used decent ceiling paint and AP mud, integrity isn't a question.

Those seams are humped, so they need coats on both sides, not down the seam. I'd assume it's going to be 3 coat with 8, 12, 16" knives for that 

Nail / screw pops get screwed I
In tight with a hand screwdriver and 3 coated again.

It's just like finishing a new ceiling, except worse. Your DW guy should get bsckcharged.


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## 2guns and a hammer

The homeowners are extraordinarily forgiving people and are even willing to change the sheen to a flat if necessary. 
It is what it is with the sub and that is being addressed.
The drywall itself is secure. Nothing is loose. The tape coats aren't showing bubbles or creases. 
My best guess is that the first guy went with a heavy tape coat, sanded, and called it a 2nd coat. Idk? The third guys is just blind. And I'm a dumbass for subbing to flunkies.LOL
Lesson learned all the way around. What doesn't kill us..right.💪
Thanks for the feed back guys!


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