# Not happy with Ben Moore



## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

I'm sure there will be some people who are going to kill me on here so I will preface this by saying that I don't think that I am not a little at fault here but that is it...a little.

So I called my BM store a couple of weeks ago to order my paint for a house we were doing and I clearly asked for BM 'Lancaster White'. I know this bc I read it off of my notes that I took when speaking with the homeowner the night before we started. So the paint was delivered and my guys went to work on the trim. 16 pane windows, soffits and dormers with a boom I had to rent, dental work, you get the picture.

I called to order a couple more gallons of paint and when I dropped it off I noticed that there was a huge difference between the original trim paint and the additional trim paint. As it turns out, the store mixed 'Lancaster Whitewash' the first time bc it comes up wierd in the computer and the BM rep had not gotten his ass in to train the new girl at the store, which is his responsibility as a manufacturer rep. Also, the girl at the store didn't put formula stickers on the original cans, she just wrote 'Lancaster White' on the top of them.

So now we have about $2400 in labor including my time to drive back and forth and figure this out. I wrote up a damage invoice and the BM store owner got ahold of the rep. He finally got back to us friday because he was on another vacation. He basically told me that he would credit me a few gallons of paint and that would be it bc he felt that was going above and beyond on BM's part. Then he talked down to me for a few minutes about how I should run a better business, and I lost my mind on him. The end result was he told me I should be happy with what I'm getting, and I told him I was switching to California Paints and hung up.

I expected to eat some of this but not 90%. I am the easiest to deal with of the contractors who spend what I do at my BM store bc I want to have support the one time I need it, which didn't happen. I have never had an issue like this, and over looked other times when my paint has been ****ed up and resulted in guys standing around but this time I want it to be made right. Am I wrong to be really pissed about this? I mean the rep wasn't even trying to not be rude. I feel like if they can assume I can afford to take a $2400 bath, I can assume they can afford to lose 50K in paint sales a year. Thoughts?


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## gideond (May 17, 2007)

I'd say you are perfectly within your rights to feel this way. I'd have to say though that if this happened at my store I'd feel it was more the fault of our employees than the manufacturer. Fact is most manufacturers aren't going to send someone into train a store's staff. 

We were a Duron dealer who got set up with a new MatchRite system just before SW bought Duron out from under us and gave us Pratt & Lambert in place of it. Instead of getting us P&L's computer system they stuck us with a half-assed modification of the MatchRite software. It's a total mess to deal with and they never bothered to train us on it either. We've figured it out by now but if something similar to what happened to you happened in my store I'd still see it as our employee's fault, though I'd rehash the computer issues with the manufacturer again as well. 

Regardless, in a situation like this I'd be inclined to try and make some kind of restitution with you if the manufacturer would not, and no sales rep should treat any customer that way unless the customer has blown up in his face with no provocation what so ever. Customer service stretches a long way before you resort to telling your customers off.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I would tend to agree with vbmenu_register("postmenu_471175", true); gideond on this one, that it is the stores problem and not the manufacturers. They can't help if the employee's don't know how to read. I would be at the manager of the paint store that sold you the paint.


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## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

I agree and disagree. Ben Moore exerts quite a bit of control over their retailers bc unlike SW, their stores are independently owned so there is a responsibility to monitor quality control, and it is my understanding from my BM store and those that own and work at other BM stores, that the color names are confusing and make the computer system hard to use. For this reason as well, the reps are supposed to be accessible. This guy I have to deal with is NEVER around.


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## firemike (Dec 11, 2005)

> I expected to eat some of this but not 90%.


I agree that you should not eat all of it. A little maybe, because you didn't double check the color. I learned many, many years ago to verify the color before application. I always do a test sample and verify it with the paint chip and get the client's approval before continuing. I painted a basement once and didn't realize it was the wrong color until well into it. I ordered it by name (the name the client gave me), the person taking the order mis-wrote the name, making it a totally different color. It was something like sagebrush green and they wrote sage green. I now always order by color number and name.



> I am the easiest to deal with of the contractors who spend what I do at my BM store bc I want to have support the one time I need it, which didn't happen. I have never had an issue like this, and over looked other times when my paint has been ****ed up and resulted in guys standing around but this time I want it to be made right.


I would fully expect that the store should stand behind you on this, especially if you spend a good deal of money with them, or it's time to move to another store, if logistically possible. Since they made the mistake, they should do what it take to rectify it. Their employee made the mistake, plain and simple. Does the invoice show the correct paint, or the wrong paint? They need to learn the meaning of loyalty.



> Am I wrong to be really pissed about this?


Absolutly NOT!




> I mean the rep wasn't even trying to not be rude. I feel like if they can assume I can afford to take a $2400 bath, I can assume they can afford to lose 50K in paint sales a year.


Can you try going above his head to someone at BM that really cares about your business. That rep sounds like a moron, and even though it is not really B/M's fault, he should be professional enough to try and work out a solution. His supervisors need to be made aware of his demeanor and how he handled this situation. The economy is too shakey to risk losing business, no mater how large or small.


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## DeanV (Feb 20, 2006)

I think agree with the others that your issue is with the store, not BM itself. Since the store is independent, BM would have less liability or control over the situation compared to a company owned store.


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## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

It's wasn't so much with the manufacturer as it was with the store until the rep was an ass about the situation.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

use your leverage with the store to help offset some of the costs, if you spend some serious $ at that store the manager should step up also....if you dont get satisfaction send a letter to the higher ups at bm, maybe they will step up however i have discovered over the years that most companies put customer service low down the list of what is important...


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## donb1959 (Dec 9, 2004)

Same thing happened with me last year, except with Sherwin Williams. Had a huge exterior stucco home. Ordered 25 gallons to get started. Cut in and rolled the entire front. Ordered 15 more gallons, got the guys started and left. I came back about 1 PM and helped them finish the side.

Next day when we returned I noticed the paint on the side was about 3 shades darker than the front. So, before I called my rep I took the swatch put both colors on it, the color we had done the front on was correct, the color we had done the side with was 3 shades dark.

Called my SW rep, he came out we talked and compared the two colors, I told him I had X amount of labor in that side, plus materials. He submitted a request of some sort to his boss, within 48 hours I had a check in hand for materials and labor, this is why I deal only with SW.


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

> He basically told me that he would credit me a few gallons of paint


 So typical of paint reps. Do they think this will restore your faith in BM? Everyone's aware that paint is a fraction only of job costs.

If the cans were mislabelled (as I understand it) they should step up to the plate, at least partways and not try to shirk this. Important word: misrepresentation.

If you incurred damages due to their neglect/irresponsibility -- have you considered filing a claim seeking damages? Or at least a BBB complaint? If you have a credit account -- is holding back an option? I wouldn't accept procedural excuses or what they are 'authorized' to do. Maybe its time for a district or regional manager to get involved. Also, isn't correct coloration (reasonable) to be expected as part of the total purchased product? It is their obligation. 

Of course they'll probably say you should have been checking the color as you applied it. But then again if this was a new mixer they are responsible for what that person does, right? 

When the tables are turned, and nothing but their service is on the table in question, paint reps can suddenly transform into something else. Forget all the prior language they fed you.

Don't ever let them tell you how to operate your business. What he is doing is trying to put you on the defensive -- a cover that tries to avert the question of maintaining the integrity of their product. So important to BM to help satisfy their high price points. Paying you outright would be an admission that there is a clear weakness here. 

Anther option (I hessitate to mention) -- if you are sure you would buy $2400 in BM paint in the near term, and all else fails -- maybe the least you could take is that much in credited paint (along with a letter stating so) and they could avoid a large percentage of it. Which doesn't make payroll, I understand, but at least...


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

Nor sure where I'm going with this but I can tell you:

The store is an independant dealer, and could have Pittsburgh in there replacing BM tomorrow
BM wouldn't like to think so, and they can treat dealers as such, but in reality the training is up to the store

If they have a computer, when the employee punched in "Lancaster White", two choices showed up on the machine
Lancaster White, and Lancaster Whitewash
The tinter would have to pick one to continue

It is generally accepted it's the customer's responsibility to check that the paint is correct before application, and that may be posted in the store

It's officially your word against whoever took the order on what was ordered
The fact that _you_ had written something down won't hold up

Sounds like:
Whoever took the order did not repeat it back to you
You didn't ask they repeat the order back to you
You didn't give the color number along with the name
Whoever tinted the order did not double check White/Whitewash (and/or call you)
Your team did not check/know what the actual color was supposed to be
The store didn't check up on the newbie's large order

I don't see how the Benjamin Moore Paint Company has anything to do with this
I do see some procedures on your company's and your retailer's part that (should have been followed and) could help in the future
I'd think the store would throw you some new gallons as a peace offering
But that's up to them

I can also tell you, it's _way_ easier to get Thanks For Not Yelling At Us stuff, and you'll get much, much, more stuff, then Please Stop Yelling At Us stuff

I'm not saying you did this, I'm just saying...
Walking into a dealer slamming the counter and screaming "You've Got A Problem You've got to Fix.... NOW" or "You bastards I'm suing you" or "You owe me $2400" will not garner the same results that asking for the manager and calmly explaining the miscommunication problems (and perhaps suggesting some of the procedures mentioned above) would


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## donb1959 (Dec 9, 2004)

I would think it was reasonable to expect that a paint retailer would give one the color that was asked for, he asked for the white, not the whitewash. Sure, when you open the can you take a look at the paint, but often times if the two are similar you assume that the retailer knows what they are doing and gave you the correct product.


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

I have been painting for 28 years and I have never ever heard of a painter who orders paints and doesn't order enough to do the job. then if you have to order more paint you would know to box the paints together, as for names of paints, I would not use a name to order paint, I only give manufactures Numbers, this way you get the right paint, it's not about guessing. all Benjamin Moore's paints have a number for each color. also the thing with painters now a days, they don't know anything about tinting paints, all the know is how to slap it on. When I started out all lead painters had to have knowledge in mixing colors. as for going by a name, well that is just a waste of time, you need to use the numbers to make sure you get the right color. as for the store help mixing up wrong color you should have taken the paint back and had them replace the two gallons, why would you think the store will pay for your painters who don't know what color thier suppose to be using. most painters can see the difference in the colors from one can to the next. if they can't well you need to teach them.
Yeah, ok the store help screwed up but to think they are going to pay you back for all the work you had your guys do and the color was wrong that my friend is your problem, you should have checked the color like Mike said. That is why you use the numbering system Benjamin Moore has in place. this way if the color isn't right and you ordered by the number then it will be on the store. Good luck

www.frankawitz.net


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## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

1. I find it hard to believe you have never had to go back for one more gallon.

2. I spoke to several Ben Moore dealers who all have problems with the way BM arranges their colors in the computer, and have communicated this to the reps and asked for changes to no avail.

3. In the northeast BM is supposed to train the people in the stores on using their mixing systems, even though they have been trained by store employees.

4. I did use color numbers. I always do, but what I got was even labled as 'Lancaster White' when it was whitewash, with no formula stickers.

5. I already said I accept responsibility in some capacity so don't give me the, "The problem with painters these days blah blah blah". I am personal friends with my BM store owner and this is not the first time this has happened, resulting in guys standing around while paint is fixed. This one just happened to go under the radar, and I wanted them to make it right, they and the rep admitted that in this case the responsibility is split three ways, then the rep basically reversed himself and acted like a jerkoff, and that is where I had a problem.

(Sidenote)

The BM store owner went over the reps head to his boss bc this is a common thing for the rep to act like an ass to all of the contractors in his area, with the exception of a couple of really big commercial guys whose ass he kisses even though they buy SW all day long. End result was given all the moving parts of this instance the regional BM guy agreed with me and BM and the BM store are hammering out an amount of paint in the $1800 range to compensate me.


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

Well that's good that you could get them to take more responsilbility then they started out with, But no I haven't come up short on paint for a job. Maybe I'm lucky like that or I just know how far a gallon will go. But I would still make sure you have someone at the store who does your orders only, cause if you have problems with the store help, then I would tell the owner since your friends that he or someone he knows will handle your orders in the right manner. But if I was you I would check all my paint before leaving the store, I would be poping lids, cause that's not chump change. couple screw ups like that well you know. As for the Rep. I don't have to deal with them, the ones I have had to deal with always did their best to correct the problem. I don't blame you for going off on the Rep sounds like a A hole. The BM store I deal with always writes the formula on the can or bucket. as for the help in the store being trained I don't know who does it but this store is Family owned that I deal with so we're talking fourth generation Benjamin Moore Paint Dealer, and they all know how to Match colors and use the software Benjamin Moore uses. But I still find it helps if your painters know what to look for also and not just say"Oh well so and so says paint" you know what I mean, cause some painters I have come across over the years will paint it just cause someone said to, even when the HomeOwner is saying "No wait I don't think that's the right color"
Good luck and hope everything works out for you.

www.frankawitz.net


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## artinall (Aug 14, 2007)

> I have been painting for 28 years and I have never ever heard of a painter who orders paints and doesn't order enough to do the job


This doesn't make sense, especially if you have been painting for 28 yrs. It's either box as you go, or box altogether on modest jobs. Then there is the case where the customer adds space to the original job for a change order.

Think of it, who in their right mind would name similar colors 'Lancaster White' and 'Lancaster Whitewash'. * That is practically asking for problems in a busy atmosphere. *Its confusing by design.

It's natural to assume there can be errors with colors since the mixers are not perfect. Just think of all the colors they mix & possibilities for errors and mishaps. 

And the point about specifying colors by number. It's only only to call it by name since it's easier to associate it with. Color codes would be too confusing and this is the whole idea with giving color names in the first place.

Any Season, now with this knot of people in a case of 'not much to gain' you are finding out what they are really like.

_When I go to paint dealers, I look for those that are reliable and accurate with colors as most of us do. Like when I can pick up on a deep base custom color for an extra $ 40 gallon and not even have it noticeable. Makes all the difference. Getting dry-downs at times, but not always. But that doesn't help you here, I realize._



> Walking into a dealer slamming the counter and screaming "You've Got A Problem You've got to Fix.... NOW" or "You bastards I'm suing you" or "You owe me $2400" will not garner the same results that asking for the manager and calmly explaining the miscommunication problems (and perhaps suggesting some of the procedures mentioned above) would


Not so sure anyone is taking this tack, certainly not me, but if a store did cause damages the trend now seems to be to back away from the customer in many ways. They have indicated at least initially what they will do, which seems a consolation. So obviously it is time to take it to the next level. 

Any Season said he is willing to take partial responsibility, so what is so unreasonable here? I wouldn't treat this as an exceptional request if they are part of the cause. I would firmly state what is a reasonable cure in an atmosphere of compromise on your part, with no hint of walking away with less. 

_By filing a complaint with the BBB, others will find out about this which they may have a right to be aware of for their own interests. Not just intended for 'leverage'

*added:* just read you sidenote, and I hope you get what is fair.
_


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

Artinall, if a customer adds a room well, Hello! no kidding there's gonna be extra paint, but if you go and bid a job what you only bid two gallons and hope it makes it? What you don't know how many doors with casing or how many windows you get out of a gallon or how many sqft it will cover if you spray or roll?:whistling This is being a Painter your job is to know how much primer, paint, spackle, caulk, painters putty the job will need:thumbsup:. if you can't figure it out then it will cost you in the long run. That's money wasted.


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## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

Case closed. This was just a bad situation all around that my rep didn't make better but BM and the store made good, which is all I was hoping for. Thanks for the feedback.


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## donb1959 (Dec 9, 2004)

In 28 years you have never had to return for more paint? Youre a genius!!:thumbsup:


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## firemike (Dec 11, 2005)

Really glad to hear things got worked out for you Any Season! At least you can sleep better tonight.


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## Dmax Consulting (Jul 22, 2008)

I have never been impressed with ben moore's customer service. They are difficult to deal with in pricing issues, and by hearing your story, apparently they arent much better with complaint resolution.

Try sherwin-williams. They are more customer service oriented.

Good Luck.


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

Don Thank You Sir, I really mean it in that time I have not come up short when it comes to ordering paints. I guess I had a Great Teacher that's all, His name was Ray Howell he had painted for around 50 years, and he could tell you the quanity of paint you needed if you were painting doors with or without case mouldings, the same with windows and all the different types, the guy was amazing. and he showed me how he would figure it out, and like I said I just have that ability to know how much paint it will take. the other thing that I find funny is I always end the job with enough paint to give to custmer for touch up. about a half a quart. unless it's ceiling paint then I take all that with me. But Thanks again.


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

I think part of the problem may be that Lancaster is one of there old standards for exterior and there may not of been a number associated with it. Or it was two digit number that was printed on the can itself since it was a standard. 

Lancaster on my fan deck is labeled as EXT RM meaning it was an old standard. Anyway i thought too that it was ta store situation and not BM's. I know if that happen to me at my small independent store the owner would of worked with me and BM never would of been involved...

All tho the whole situation sounds aggravating to say the least...


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

Dmax Consulting said:


> Try sherwin-williams. They are more customer service oriented.
> 
> Good Luck.



everyone situations is usually unique as I wouldn't trust a word that SW says around here. The service turned me off of them 15 tears ago and never went back...


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## gideond (May 17, 2007)

I agree with MakDeco. Around here I get a lot of SW customers coming to me because they are fed up with SW customer service. I also have to deal with them on the Dealer end since we place P&L orders through the SW customer service now. They are horrible and their sales reps are even worse.


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## ddm (Jul 21, 2005)

I use all of them, and they all suck at on point or another, but I still prefer bm, 4 different stores and hc-77 is still green on the wall:blink:


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## Will (Jul 18, 2005)

I wasn't too thrilled with my benmoore store a while back. Went to pickup color customer picked, got it on the wall and though.. Wow that don't look right, but I will let it dry overnight and come back to see if its any better before putting on another coat. Next day, still way way off.

They tried to tell me it just needed more dry time. Brought in the can and said this clearly isn't the same color. Turns out someone didn't update the computer there and they had the old color code or something like that.. Oops.

I didn't throw a fit, but they didn't seem to think it was a huge deal that I had to go back and put 2 coats of this new correct color up because they screwed up. One coat didn't totally cover it up. They gave me a free gallon(not really free since I paid for the wrong one. They just replaced it free). That's great and all, but didn’t make up for my time to go put another coat on a room. Small room so wasn't the end of the world, but I thought they could have pretended to care more.

I mostly hit SW since then.


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