# Your subs bidding to your competition !!



## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

What do you guys feel about loyalty to the generals you work for ? I mean if you have done work for a general for say 10 good years with good results, what would provoke you to give a price to his competitor on the same job ?...

Heres my take as a general !!!

If I have been good to you for 10 plus years ( always paid on time, always helping subs out of binds ) I think some loyalty is due. Heres an example:

I need a price from my electrician to install 100 outlets in a building (hypothetical situation) . I only get a price from one electrician because he does good work and always on time. Now say my competitor asks him for a price too! should he give it to him ? Now this entire job is just installing outlets, so the electricians price is like 95% of the job (5% my mark up).

I say NO, because now my competitor knows my price (cuz im loyal to my sub and only got his price), and now I have to get another electrician. In my experience my competitors are able to get some prices from a few of my subs. Then what my competitor does is take that price to his electrician to beat it by maybee 5% to 10%. So now my electrician just lost Himself and me a job ! now any job he bids for me after that im bringing in a new electrician till i can find one that was as good as him but LOYAL !!

What are your guys take on this ???


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

My subs can do whatever they want when they are off my jobs, if they give the competitor the bid and get it they now have work.


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

Ditto's with Kevin, there not my employees & if they fulfill their contracts with me were good


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

I think you r missing the point!, Im saying that they are giving your competition on "THE SAME JOB" you are bidding on a price.


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

Yes I agree 100% if they are givin prices to whoever...just not on my jobs im bidding on


LOL, i had an HVAC guy show up on a jobwalk that i invited him to and he passed out business cards to all the generals on the job walk...... last time i used that guy!!

another funny thing is that the way things have been goin i might be posting a new thread in SoCal for new some new subs. Loyalty pays off in the long run the way i see it.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

A sub is a sub,not an employee.You don't own them.They have a right to make a living.If you don't get the job then it should not matter to you who does the electrical work for the GC that does get it.
What are you going to say to the guy,"I didn't get this job so I don't want you to have any work either?"


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

HOOT said:


> Yes I agree 100% if they are givin prices to whoever...just not on my jobs im bidding on
> 
> 
> LOL, i had an HVAC guy show up on a jobwalk that i invited him to and he passed out business cards to all the generals on the job walk...... last time i used that guy!!
> ...


Why shouldn't they bid on the job with another GC - especially if said GC called him, he has already done the work up. Do you not think that the other GC will not get another price elsewhere? Do you think he will call "your" sub again? Are you keeping the sub busy 365 days a year?

FYI with just a 5% markup, I doubt the other GC is beating you on price.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

More power to them. This is business. If I'm not the only game in town, then why wouldn't a sub want to bid the job for more than one GC?

Putting all your eggs in one basket, out of loyalty, laziness, or friendship is bad business. Plain and simple. Preferring one sub over another is fine, but be sure that you're not being short sighted about it. 

Personally, I welcome competition. Your electrician can help you by helping your hungry competition learn that while cash flow is nice, profit is the only true friend of business. If your competition is willing to take less than 5% on a job like this, then either his overhead is much less than yours, or he's clueless. The cash flow may get him over the hump, but it won't put him any further ahead in the long run.

Don't take it personally.


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## wireless (Nov 2, 2006)

Do you expect your supply house to only give you a quote?


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

I am a sub, licensed as a General Contractor, for the purposes of being legally able to pursue many differing trade disciplines. It's a WA state thing.

As a framer, I strive to be the best framing contractor that there is. I bring this skill set to whomever wishes to hire my services. I treat all customers (GCs, Builders, HOs) the same. 

1. Never lie.
2. Be on time.
3. Do the job right.

When I read "your subs" it irked me. I don't equate "loyalty" with slavery. Those subs are providing a service in a "trade pool" for your area. If they are good at what they do, you should want them to do their thing all over, not just for you.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

When I bid a project I have given the same bid to four different GC's bidding the job, each one gets the same bid. I don't care who gets the job, as long as the check is good I'm happy.

If a GC doesn't want me giving my bid to other GC's and he doesn't get awarded the job, is he going to still pay me what I was going to make? He may not have got it, but one of the others I bid to did and I hope they used my numbers to win the process.


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## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

> I think you r missing the point!, Im saying that they are giving your competition on "THE SAME JOB" you are bidding on a price.


Let me ask you this, are you getting only his bid or sometimes you get one from his competitor?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

I think not...


HOOT said:


> I need a price from my electrician to install 100 outlets in a building (hypothetical situation) . *I only get a price from one electrician because he does good work and always on time*. Now say my competitor asks him for a price too! should he give it to him ? Now this entire job is just installing outlets, so the electricians price is like 95% of the job (5% my mark up).
> 
> 
> 
> What are your guys take on this ???


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Had this situation occur to me 2 years ago. I contacted a few reputable GC's that I had never worked for because we were slowing down. One of them called back, asked for my credentials, then offered to send me a print for a house. As we talked he dropped the name of the homeowner. I realized it was the same job I had bid on for a GC who has been incredibly loyal to me over the years. I politely declined to bid and explained the situation to him. When I talked to my loyal GC, he told me thay while he appreciated my loyalty, he understood that I needed to work as well and he would understand if I bid on the job. To me it just didn't feel right at the time. I would feel weird if I got the job and my old loyal GC drove by and saw us working there. Just me I guess.


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## BHR (Jan 7, 2009)

As a sub...personally I would be a bit upset with the fact that you would want to try and control MY business. Sure, loyality is a big thing - very important but the buck does not stop there. 

If the sub gave the other GC the same quote and you didn't get the job it isn't from that subs bid right? So where is your lotality to that sub then?


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## outlaw (Jan 7, 2009)

I lost a job last year that a competitor lowballed on me. At first the customer said the low price did not matter. We did the first building and he was highly impressed. Then the customer came back and told me that the competitor was usinig the same sub, so he got the job. I will never give that sub another job.


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

It may be possible in this hypo sit that the electrician gave you the best price based on long experience and problem free dealings with you. He may not, necessarily, give the other gc's the same price therefore the 5% reduction of the other electrician would match yours. I would assume he would not discuss these prices amongst all the competing gc'c.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

most of the roofing-siding contractors in my area want you to be a captive sub,all the benitits of an employee without the cost-no thankyou


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## mckellarman (Jan 4, 2008)

When my crew and I were mostly just framing & boarding (commercial) there were several occasions I was out with 2-3 GC's to look at the same job. I would bid them all exactly the same, I am loyal to my Generals as far as my word is my word and I get the job done on time but my feeling is as long as I give them all an equal shot (equal pricing) my conscience is clear.


just my two cents.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

HOOT said:


> What do you guys feel about loyalty to the generals you work for ? I mean if you have done work for a general for say 10 good years with good results, what would provoke you to give a price to his competitor on the same job ?...
> 
> Heres my take as a general !!!
> 
> ...


You shouldn't worry about competition unless you know you suck at what you do. You should not treat other contractors as your competitors, treat them as your coworkers. I have a great relationship with many GC's, builders and contractors in the area. If any of us needs a hand, we always there for each other, if someone is tied up on the job and can't get to a certain job where his good customer or a HO needs something done fast, we throw work to each other, who we know will do the right thing leaving the HO happy.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

Sorry. My take is that the sub contractor is in business just like you. He has to put food on his table. If you don't want him to bid the job to someone else, then either find him another job to do or gurantee payment even if you don't get the job. 
As long as he did not alert the other GC and say "here, I have this job you should bid" it's fine with me. The other GC approached him and asked to bid. In this case, the job is 95% electrical, but that's unusual. What about a complete reno where the sub in question accounts for 10 or 20 or 30% of the job?

It's a free world. Unless you have an agreement with the sub not to look elsewhere (in which case he's an employee according to our laws), he can do what he wants. Just suck it up and go look elsewhere for jobs to bid. And don't thow away the sub if he's any good. God knows how hard it is to find good people.


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## user38755 (Jan 1, 2009)

For the most part I will only give one GC my estimates. I have given estimates to other GC's but not with the same #'s. I also will not try to compete with the GC I sub to under any circumstances, I know better. Perhaps if I was in a larger market it would not make a difference. But where I am at 1 GC has the new construction market cornered, the entire family of brothers, sisters, and father own or have sold all of SW Iowa. Nobodies toes I care to step on. On the other hand we get all the Gov. jobs and large scale projects that we bid in the area. Some of the local GC's walk away when we show up to walk throughs. We also get alot of referals from the same GC for HO's that one of the 30-40 realestate agents in their office has sold. Along with work from some of the other subs. So, YES I am loyal to my GC.:thumbsup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Metal Bender i understand what your saying theres a family around here thats the same way.But if your just working for 1 gc well then your not really a sub,what if he tells you you cant sell your own work,im not saying this is your situation im just saying where does it stop


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm a GC, although in today's economy, I also do some straight subbing. So perhaps my view is a little slanted from both angles.

I know that as a GC, I have gone the extra mile for many subs (long-term relationships), and made life and finances a little easier for them. I have, at times, accepted short "pull-offs" when it did not adversely effect my schedules, so the subs could go catch some suddenly-appearing quick cash elsewhere.

And I have also asked subs to bend and stretch their schedules or resources for me when I was in a bind.

Compared to many of the opinions I've read here, it's obvious I'm a little too old-school to suit the business styles of many other contractors. But, to me, it's people and relationships before just cold cash. And that goes either way.

I will be totally frank here, people who make statements to me that "business is business" usually aren't going to be partnering with me long. And that is how I have always viewed my working relationships with subs... or if I'm subbing, with GC's... as an informal partnership.

Looking at this from my subbing standpoint, I probably would not bid for work with my "partner's" competition on the very same job. I would, however, bid on other work the competitor offered. But the generosity of my prices might not reflect the same benevolence my long-time GC would receive.

From my earliest days of being a lead on a framing crew I've been a staunch proponent of what we old-timers call "horse trading". You scratch my back, and I scratch yours. My memory, and that of people I've worked with for years, stretches farther than just the last good buck I made off one of their jobs.

Will I ever own the 40' Cigarette boat with the triple 300 hp motors hanging off the transom that some of you sport? No. Not likely. But sometimes the cost of what we feel we must have becomes a little too steep a price to pay when weighed against what we sacrificed to have it.


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## user38755 (Jan 1, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> Metal Bender i understand what your saying theres a family around here thats the same way.But if your just working for 1 gc well then your not really a sub,what if he tells you you cant sell your own work,im not saying this is your situation im just saying where does it stop


I can sell my own work and even work for other GC's. Thing is the other GC is likely to fail if they try to take the Big Fish's sub's, not the sub's. We have had work "created" for us to keep busy by the GC, leads passed on to us that the GC just is not interested in, windows, doors, cabinets, given to us. As well as use of their lifts on jobs that we sold. One of my guys asked about a new heat pump sitting outside the shop all last summer and was told to take it home. We have a good working relationship that is benificial to both of us. Do I get beat down on prices, sometimes. Do I lose jobs to other subs, sometimes. Do I get the high end jobs, always. Do I get concert tickets and river boats cruises, yes I do. Another plus is when the new streets go in and a neiborhood is built we only have to move the trailer a block or so at a time.:thumbsup:


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## MarkNoV (Apr 29, 2006)

Pay me a retainer fee( lets say a $100K) at the beginning of each season and I am all yours. Otherwise, when you call me the first question should be : " Are you busy?" or : " Can you bid a job for me, please?"

Mark


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

My take as a GC. I had my electrician and plumber bid the job for me and a competitor. I am friends with this competitor. I don't like it, but I did understand and its no hard feelings.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

no belive me i understand, and i am loyal to the few gc i do work for not loyal in the sence of i just do thier work,loyal in the sence that i always give my best quality and service and thats what im loyal to.


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## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

*This thread is bull5hit, but a fun one!*

Like I say, do you only get his estimate or do you have his competition bid jobs also. And what is your closing % on your bidding process 1 out of 20 and then this loyal sub is only about .05% favorite to win the job. However if he sends a bid to all the contractors bidding the job he now has about a 20% chance to get the job.


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## CF Construction (Nov 16, 2008)

Wow, you're acting as if though this guy has an exclusive contract with you. If that's the case, he might as well become your employee. He has all the right to try to "network" with everyone and anyone who will help him keep bringing in income to his household. If he has such a good rapport with you, than he probably gave the other GC a higher price than he had given you. He also is conducting a business, the same way you are, so he shouldn't be limited to whom he can work for on a project even if that means bidding the same project for another GC. Unless you're keeping this guy busy all throughout the year and when you don't you give him some sort of residual income you have no reason to fault the man. Also, that was kind of weak, not using the HVAC guy because he was giving out his business cards to others that may allow him to continue bringing food to the table.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

I know alot of GC's who will lowball you no matter how long you have worked for them, they are driven by the dollar the same as everyone else. I will give a bid to anybody I want on any job I want and if a GC I have worked for in the past has a problem with it then the next time he calls me for something my rates just went up. It is business, you wanna make friends then join a church group or something, because even your best friend ain't gonna pay your mortgage.
My loyalty to the GC would be not telling anyone any of his business, including the prices I quote him. I always do my very best work for anyone I work for and will go the extra mile and throw in extras for people who have been good for me. I just don't think I would turn down work in todays economy just because a GC tells me it hurts his feelings when I give bids to his competition. 
Maybe you could be a little more loyal to your sub and turn him onto the job without your 5% cut ............ You wouldn't make no money, you wouldn't want to do that, you are a business, well he is a business to.
You don't own your subs, if you want guys who will only work for you then get some employees and some non compete agreements, otherwise deal with it.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

I don't expect subs to roll over for me, when I say I don't like them bidding for my competitor, I don't mean they shouldn't do it. I wish it didn't happen, that's all. Work is work. The GC's that play the lowball game can do what they want, I stopped working for those guys. Even though I'm a GC I was a sub on many trim jobs. I met some real A-holes, one job and never went back to those guys.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

silvertree said:


> I don't expect subs to roll over for me, when I say I don't like them bidding for my competitor, I don't mean they shouldn't do it. I wish it didn't happen, that's all. Work is work. The GC's that play the lowball game can do what they want, I stopped working for those guys. Even though I'm a GC I was a sub on many trim jobs. I met some real A-holes, one job and never went back to those guys.


In a perfect world, this wouldn't be an issue. But none of us live in a perfect world, either.

I once had the pleasure of bidding on the same job for 3 different builders. They all got the same price.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

I realize that to some of you I might come across as someone that is driven by money, but I'm not. People and relationships are the most important things in my book. Money and business are secondary. But, with that said, please understand that money is important. 

Money can't buy happiness, but it is able to buy choices. That means that I can choose to work whom I will, and to pass the better jobs to those subs that I enjoy working with.

I don't do this work to get rich. I do it because I love it. I love to create and to make things better than they were. I enjoy seeing people realize their dreams and to enjoy what I have helped to create. 

But, no matter my reasons for what I do, or my priorities, I can never lose sight that I'm not a charity. I work to support my family and to do the things that I love whenever I can, with those I love. 

Believing in people, and the things they do, leaves me with no choice but to respect the decisions they make. If a sub decides to bid on a job with my competition, then I support that 100% and wish them both luck. I'm not in this business to lose, but I'm not in it to be the only game in town, or die with the most toys. I'm in it for the ride. Its a challenge and a passion.

I never take it personally because I consider myself a professional. I know, understand, and use all of the tools at my disposal to run the best race I can. If I allow any of this to become personal, then it becomes about winning and losing, instead of how I do my job. When I make it all about me, then I become more important than those around me. When that happens, I no longer have their best interests at heart and I know then that I'm no longer doing my job, I'm stroking my ego. 

I also know that from experience, those jobs I did that were all about me were the most grueling, tiresome and worthless jobs I have done. The money I made from them could never replace the hard feelings and pain-in-the-ass bad times I had to put up with just to survive the job.

So now, if it ain't all good, then it ain't no good at all. And if a sub wants to put a bid in with another GC, I'm plenty good with that and wish them well.


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

greg24k said:


> You shouldn't worry about competition unless you know you suck at what you do. You should not treat other contractors as your competitors, treat them as your coworkers. I have a great relationship with many GC's, builders and contractors in the area. If any of us needs a hand, we always there for each other, if someone is tied up on the job and can't get to a certain job where his good customer or a HO needs something done fast, we throw work to each other, who we know will do the right thing leaving the HO happy.


 
OK for those of you who dont get what im saying, i should give more details.....

We deal with a large corporation as a GC for all of their general work. It would not be fair business practice for this corp to just give us all the work, so they bring in up to 5 GC's. with 5 GC's it does not bug me, but when they need a quick job done and the majority of the work is say "carpentry" and i only have one competitor, and we both have fixed mark ups with the corp, and in say 20 yrs of using this sub and giving him say over $6 mil (probly way more) in jobs and my competitor has given him maybee $ 80 thousand in 10 yrs. They give my comp a price.....come to find out that on an 75 thousand dollar job i was beaten by 1 thousand dollars and they used a diff carpenter (took my carps price and had their carp chop it )..... ID say my carpenter just lost me and himself that job.... now if he does it again than its my fault for not getting a price from 5 carpenters on the next one... after all i have to compete for a job too

So yes, i know they are not my employee. but my lesson learned to all you GC's if you have Subs that pass out business cards to your competitors on job walks........ dont waste your time their are plenty of good subs that will appreciate your work if u got a lot of it, and be more than happy to not bid to your comp on the same jobs..... and actually if your subs are good they will have so much work anyway they wont really care. And remember like i said I get about 80 percent of the jobs i bid on, so in the long run they will be better off not to bid to my comp on my projects


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

Willie T said:


> I'm a GC, although in today's economy, I also do some straight subbing. So perhaps my view is a little slanted from both angles.
> 
> I know that as a GC, I have gone the extra mile for many subs (long-term relationships), and made life and finances a little easier for them. I have, at times, accepted short "pull-offs" when it did not adversely effect my schedules, so the subs could go catch some suddenly-appearing quick cash elsewhere.
> 
> ...


 
Willie, couldnt have put it better..... Im a young guy coming up into this.... ive worked the trades my whole life, and i hate this new bidding concept im learning. Makes just doing the work seem easy. Im by NO means a business man (or architect or OSHA)....I hate them. I have no respect for them. I love the hammer swingers and trench diggers, and there isnt a day that im not doin it, and i think i gain respect from my guys for it. We are a friends and family run business, and yes we do work saturdays ( and sometimes sunday). ANYTHING my subs do I can do (just not as fast sometimes) so if they piss me off, ill do it myself, and they know it. But deadlines and job size creates need for the masses of plumbers, electricains, carpenters, painters, ironworkers, flooring, data, excavaters...... but each situation is diff


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

Definition of a GC = we are only as good as our subs, because in the end it is our combined efforts that have to make the customer happy


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

BHR said:


> As a sub...personally I would be a bit upset with the fact that you would want to try and control MY business. Sure, loyality is a big thing - very important but the buck does not stop there.
> 
> If the sub gave the other GC the same quote and you didn't get the job it isn't from that subs bid right? So where is your lotality to that sub then?


 
UUUh, i only got one subs price (that is loyalty) so what r u talkn bout. It is my comp that got the job and gave it to a diff. sub by chopping my subs price


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

Double-A said:


> More power to them. This is business. If I'm not the only game in town, then why wouldn't a sub want to bid the job for more than one GC?
> 
> Putting all your eggs in one basket, out of loyalty, laziness, or friendship is bad business. Plain and simple. Preferring one sub over another is fine, but be sure that you're not being short sighted about it.
> 
> ...


In the long run your business first friends last attitude will catch up to you. Yeah u might make a few bux, but in the end u will still be a D1CK

nothing personal


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

HOOT said:


> UUUh, i only got one subs price (that is loyalty) so what r u talkn bout. It is my comp that got the job and gave it to a diff. sub by chopping my subs price


 
you use that sub because you know the service he gives you is probably better than average at a price your comfortable with thats not loyalty thats buisness


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> you use that sub because you know the service he gives you is probably better than average at a price your comfortable with thats not loyalty thats buisness


 
? what

did u read the part about working with them for 20 plus years.....im not driving around in a ferrari. i lessen my markup to use good subs and provide an unbeatable service..and yes not getting other prices from subs that i know are lower is considered being loyal.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

you should grow up you definitely sound like a gc i would never work with

i didnt say anything about anybody being cheeper that ubeatable sevice is provided to you by your subs


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## Solar Control (Jan 27, 2009)

_"...yes not getting other prices from subs that i know are lower is considered being loyal"

_If everything - bid delivery, submittals, work quality, change orders, etc - is really even between subs, that may be loyalty, but probably not a great business practice. We all get beat out of jobs.

To use a current colloquialism, man up. *Talk to your sub(s) face to face and let them know what you require with your relationship*. I recommend you talk to all of your subs. It is a symbiotic relationship at best and both parties have to know what is expected.

Have you gone to bat for your best subs? Sure you have. Have they done the same for you? You bet.

I really do wish you good luck. For the subs that you are keeping busy 60% of the year, some may not have a problem with your request. Bird in the hand...


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

The guy is a sub, he provides a service to you, you are really no different then a HO, would you tell RotoRooter that you want them to only clean your drains? You shouldn't even know who your sub submits bids to, it has nothing to do with your business. You cant blame your sub if he gives your competitor a bid and your competitor wins the job, maybe they have better salesmanship then you do, or maybe they didn't seem like such a self righteous d!ck.
"I gave my sub $6 million in work" ....... you didn't give him sh!t, he earned his money or you would have never used him again. You wouldn't like it if your sub was on here saying he paid your wages on every job he did for you. You cry and say the sub can be replaced, well so can you, losing a good sub to your competition is a brilliant thing to do, that will really teach everyone a lesson ......... 
Is it possible that you lost the job on your own???? Maybe you overcharged on your %. Maybe the guy you were presenting the bid to thought you were a d!ck. Maybe he just didn't like your cologne, you will never know. But kicking a guy to the curb who has by your own account preformed well for you in the past and bringing in an unknown sub to replace him is not really something I would want to do. 
You need to get it out of your head that someone did you wrong, maybe focus on how to win the next job.


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

Its obvious who the subs are here, and who the GC's are. Maybee we will never see Eye to eye, and thats understandable. I know what i got to do. just wanted to see what the GC's thought about it, I already know what all you subs think. And to all you subs out there, just cause you dealt with a few bad GC's in your time, having a good realtionship with the few good GC's out there might pay off in the long run. Good luck to you all......


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

ModernStyle said:


> The guy is a sub, he provides a service to you, you are really no different then a HO, would you tell RotoRooter that you want them to only clean your drains? You shouldn't even know who your sub submits bids to, it has nothing to do with your business. You cant blame your sub if he gives your competitor a bid and your competitor wins the job, maybe they have better salesmanship then you do, or maybe they didn't seem like such a self righteous d!ck.
> "I gave my sub $6 million in work" ....... you didn't give him sh!t, he earned his money or you would have never used him again. You wouldn't like it if your sub was on here saying he paid your wages on every job he did for you. You cry and say the sub can be replaced, well so can you, losing a good sub to your competition is a brilliant thing to do, that will really teach everyone a lesson .........
> Is it possible that you lost the job on your own???? Maybe you overcharged on your %. Maybe the guy you were presenting the bid to thought you were a d!ck. Maybe he just didn't like your cologne, *you will never know.* But kicking a guy to the curb who has by your own account preformed well for you in the past and bringing in an unknown sub to replace him is not really something I would want to do.
> You need to get it out of your head that someone did you wrong, maybe focus on how to win the next job.


 
wrong... I do know. I know the situation, we have been an exclusive GC at this place for 40+ years, I know. You dont know, and im not going into 40 years of details. Its a new game right now, and dirty games are being played.... I dont like to play dirty, I just try to stay honest. And when my comp gets dirty than we have to come up with new strategies.


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

ModernStyle said:


> The guy is a sub, he provides a service to you, you are really no different then a HO, would you tell RotoRooter that you want them to only clean your drains? You shouldn't even know who your sub submits bids to, it has nothing to do with your business. You cant blame your sub if he gives your competitor a bid and your competitor wins the job, maybe they have better salesmanship then you do, or maybe they didn't seem like such a self righteous d!ck.
> "I gave my sub $6 million in work" ....... you didn't give him sh!t, he earned his money or you would have never used him again. You wouldn't like it if your sub was on here saying he paid your wages on every job he did for you. You cry and say the sub can be replaced, well so can you, losing a good sub to your competition is a brilliant thing to do, that will really teach everyone a lesson .........
> Is it possible that you lost the job on your own???? Maybe you overcharged on your %. Maybe the guy you were presenting the bid to thought you were a d!ck. *Maybe he just didn't like your cologne*, you will never know. But kicking a guy to the curb who has by your own account preformed well for you in the past and bringing in an unknown sub to replace him is not really something I would want to do.
> You need to get it out of your head that someone did you wrong, maybe focus on how to win the next job.


Im a construction worker, why would I wear cologne for the guys...lol, is that what you do ? you wear cologne to work around a bunch of sweaty ass men...haha. oh man "YOU GO BOY !!"


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

Hoot

You are mistakenly mixing emotions and business. 

And now you are spewing emotion all over here when you don't get answers you want to hear.

I have worked with good and bad builders, GCs and HOs. The only constant is even if I do a terrific job...there is no guarantee that I will get the next one. So how's that for loyalty? 

I make sure that I give *ALL *my customer's my very best work. Keeps me busy that way.

You sound like one of those cheap GCs who wants employees but doesn't want to follow the tax laws, so you pay them as subs. Remember to read carefully...I said YOU SOUND LIKE. Maybe you ain't...but you SOUND LIKE THAT TO ME.

Hope everything works out for you. 
Tough times weed out the weak and the whiners. Don't be either.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

HOOT said:


> Im by NO means a business man (or architect or OSHA)....I hate them. I have no respect for them. I love the hammer swingers and trench diggers, and there isnt a day that im not doin it, and i think i gain respect from my guys for it.


I think being in business somewhat requires you to be a business man.

If you aren't then perhaps you should find someone else to run your business who understands that a sub is a sub. 

Some subs are better than others in skill, some are cheaper than others in price. They too are businessmen looking out for their business.

Good luck.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

HOOT said:


> Im a construction worker, why would I wear cologne for the guys...lol, is that what you do ? you wear cologne to work around a bunch of sweaty ass men...haha. oh man "YOU GO BOY !!"


Maybe thats why they replaced your company, maybe they were looking for less sweaty asses. Personal hygiene is not an option, it is a rule.


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

ModernStyle said:


> Maybe thats why they *replaced your company*, maybe they were looking for less sweaty asses. Personal hygiene is not an option, it is a rule.


wrong again, not replaced still there !! are you learning yet modernstyle, gonna have to keep up here buddy

I originally posted a ? about how ppl feel about subs bidding to their competition "*ON THE SAME JOB"*, seems like im getting a lot of responses about how my situation is. Dont need ppl to tell me what they think my situation is, just curious bout what they thought about subs biddn to their comp on the same job. To many know it alls. And actually business couldnt be better right now, but as the game changes we have to adapt, and im curious how some "GC's" deal with this situation.

So if your just jumpn in read the whole thread b4 u put in ur $0.02


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> you should grow up you definitely sound like a gc i would never work with
> 
> i didnt say anything about anybody being cheeper that ubeatable sevice is provided to you by your subs


 
dont worry i wouldnt hire you, siding is easy


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## DavidNTX (May 6, 2007)

It is pretty easy to control, offer the sub about 50 bux for his estimate, then it belongs to you.

You have several competing GCs bidding the same job and only one of them will get the job. Remember your subs do this for free and there is absolutely nothing wrong with giving a price to all GCs bidding the job. If you can't guarantee a job for the free estimate and the best price then your sub should be able to do as he wishes, with your graces.

If you do your subs right they will probably give you a better price anyway. Getting your money on time and not having to bug the gc every week/month for your money is worth something and your sub should know it.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

HOOT said:


> dont worry i wouldnt hire you, siding is easy


 So is being a cry baby too big for his britches GC, but you dont have to hire them, they seem to grow on trees.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

kool i stopped doing work for guys like you along time ago:thumbup:
and your right besides my own work i sub for a few good gc here who act like men not little boys

you sound like your in a family buisness was this a sub that maybe your dad has worked with for a long time?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

ModernStyle said:


> So is being a cry baby too big for his britches GC, but you dont have to hire them, they seem to grow on trees.


 
Thanks???Modernstyle:laughing:


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## mook (Aug 31, 2006)

Hoot...you sound like an ass. Why would you expect a good sub to submit pricing to only you. I would never expose my company to the risk of relying on one GC. It is common practice in central Fla. for prequalified, resonsible, bondable subs to price every job that comes around. I pay good money for exchanges just to be sure we don't miss a job unless we decide we don't want to bid it. If you're the last man standing I'll go find some grass to mow.


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## thelodges (Nov 30, 2008)

HOOT said:


> wrong... I do know. I know the situation, we have been an exclusive GC at this place for 40+ years, I know. You dont know, and im not going into 40 years of details. Its a new game right now, and dirty games are being played.... I dont like to play dirty, I just try to stay honest. And when my comp gets dirty than we have to come up with new strategies.


 
From what I have read it seems that you believe that your competitor is taking YOUR subs bid, and then assuming this is your submitted price and then using that knowledge to underbid you and cost you the job. Is this a correct assumption?

I notice that from the quoted text above, that you believe that it is your COMPETITOR that is playing dirty. (taking your subs bid and beating that number). I do not have enough information to know what he did or didn't do, but I would hope that you wouldn't punish your sub for somebody elses dirty trick. I can completely understand your frustration but I honestly believe that your sub acted in good faith and it was your competitor that took that information and used it against you.

Your competitor is an ass, not your sub. In an equal setting everything your sub did is kosher. Everyone is getting the same fair price and work. In this case your competitor is taking information and using it against you to underbid you. I see no disloyalty from your sub, he is being used himself, if what you say is correct.

I think if you really want a positive outcome to this situation, then drop the loyalty talk etc. and talk to your sub face to face and explain to him your concerns about his NUMBERS being used against you by your competitors, and give him the example which you gave us. Find out a way in which you feel confident that your bid numbers are being protected whiile at the same time making your sub feel free to bid freely. Sometimes you have to educate your subs as to these types of games, something like this probably doesn't even register to him since he conducts business as a sub and in such a different way..


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

dont really understand all this your a sub im a gc stuff, we all work for somebody -the customer


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> dont really understand all this your a sub im a gc stuff, we all work for somebody -the customer


Negative! Negative! Negative! As a sub, I work for the person or entity that hires me and signs the contract.

I usually for the GC, but on rare occasion work directy for the customer. My contract is therefore with the GC. Only the GC is authorized to make change orders, only the GC gets my bill, and the GC is the only enitity I deal with, at least on a business & legal level. Yes, the customer is important, but the customer in this case cannot make change orders as my contract is not with him/her/them.

If you let the customer change things and think the GC is going to always merrily pay you, then you're going to get hit hard in the wallet some day.

I also sub-subcontract some of my work to specialized trades (alarms, home theater, etc). They work for me, not the GC or owner. I have also had sub-subcontractors sub even more work out (say, ground work or concrete cutting/boring ). Their subs work for them, not me or the GC or the customer.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

As a sub, I never turn down an opportunity to bid work, that is just good business. However if I'm bidding for an unfamiliar GC, he doesn't get the same number as someone who I have a loyal relationship with. If I get those jobs at a slightly higher rate, I'll discuss that fact with the loyal GC and try to work out new terms. I have an obligation to my company to get the best price for a given job. It also protects the sub from being taken advantage of by the GC who thinks the sub owes him something. When the work is done and the bill is paid, everyone is even. :thumbsup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

yes i understand sparky i think i meant in the larger sence we all work for someone eles ,that can be a gc or a homeowner they are bolth customers


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> yes i understand sparky i think i meant in the larger sence we all work for someone eles


Yes, the final customer is important, but it's also important to know which side of your bread is buttered.

I work closely with the homeowners on resi projects as they're the ones that ultimately pony up the dough. But I keep them at arm's length when it comes to the legal end of the deal. Take a simple change order, for instance, initiated by the owner. "Yes, I can do that. I'll write up a change order, present to your builder, and he will present it to you."

It's not that difficult, but I've seen guys get burned and burned hard when they lose sight of the fact that, as a sub, the owner has no contract with them. In the end, the owner doesn't pay because there was no contract, and the builder doesn't pay because he didn't authorize the change.


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## tsb (Jul 6, 2008)

as a sub, I'll give a bid to anyone that contacts me. And it'll be the same price as long as I know you're not a pita to work with. I'm glad this is the general consensus of the thread.

That said, I would never hand out business cards during a walk. That's in poor taste.


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## HomerJ (Jan 23, 2009)

I've experienced a similar situation this week.

It's hard to believe how ridiculous and petty some people can be regarding subs. 

Some people actually act like they own these subs or have exclusive rights to their services. 

Unreal.


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## GAK (Apr 22, 2005)

Now that's a real hoot!
As was pointed out, "your" sub is not the bad guy. The other "GC" used him. A sub has every right to bid for whomever he decides. I am not a sub very often, only for a few select contractors that I trust and respect. Everyone is entitled to play any games they want but I can tell that you and I would probably not be doing business together more than once with the attitude that comes across on line.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

roofins easy:laughing:


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

Well said Greg24k. 
Most of the GC's in my area are quick to help one another out whether it partains to new code changes, supply/material info, even recommending or reffering subs. We all have to do our part to keep that wheel going round and round


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> kool i stopped doing work for guys like you along time ago:thumbup:
> and your right besides my own work i sub for a few good gc here who act like men not little boys
> 
> you sound like your in a family buisness was this a sub that maybe your dad has worked with for a long time?


 

Actually its me and my two brothers and sister, im the oldest. But anyways sounds like things arent goin to good for you. You seem bitter about GC's, but to each their own. Better luck to you in your future


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