# union job offer



## klyde (Nov 4, 2011)

So i have a in person interview with a union commercial carpenter company on monday, and i don't know much about the union at all. i have grown up with parents saying get in the union and then non union carpenters that i work with saying unions are a joke. 
The guy I talked to said that after the interview they will give me a quick math and skill set test then i have to go get a physical and pay union dues of $126 then they will hire me for a 2 month "test run" at $22.xx an hour, after the 2 months if they like my work they will give me journeymen's pay of $32.xx. i always thought i had to go to union class and be an apprentice for 4 years before your able to get journeymen pay? this sounds like a pretty good opportunity if that is the case. what do you guys think?


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

Give it a go. How long have you been working in the trade?


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## klyde (Nov 4, 2011)

Brutus said:


> Give it a go. How long have you been working in the trade?


7 years.


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

Maybe that's why they want to give you a test run at the lower wage, see what you know, if you meet journeymen standards... you get the pay.

Sounds like a sweet gig. Where you located? I know in Canada if you can have someone vouch for your knowledge of the trade, and your hours, you can challenge the red seal exam (journeymens). I think it's something like 14,000 hours to do it that way. So 7 years would sound about right.


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## klyde (Nov 4, 2011)

I'm in Minnesota.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Let's look at it this way, are you making close to $64k per year now? Would the work be less satisfying? Is the difference in pay and benefits worth the difference in work enjoyment to you?

You're not guaranteed full time employment so make sure you check their layoff rates compared to non-union companies in your area.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I know what my answer would be....NO, but that is me. If you can make it on your own, you are better off.


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

There are two kinds of jobs in the union. Concrete work and ***** work for the GC's. Oh yeah the whole brotherhood thing is a farce. Those bitches will sell you out to keep their job in a second. Stay out of any politics and just do your work. Don't drink with the faggets and only chit chat with them during break. 

I could write a book on how to worm your way though the corporate world of heavy construction. Oh yeah and if you want to get laid off like a man. Just go up to the clique members and tell them what you really think. Expect two checks that day or on Friday. :thumbsup:


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

Working for a union outfit is really no different than working for a non union outfit, especially when it's the carpenters or laborers. The other ones are a little more political, at least around the St. Louis area anyways.

Not sure how old you are or what sort of position you're in your life. But if you're a young guy it could be a good deal for you. Just bust your ass, stay out of the politics and you'll be fine and have some good benefits with a pension. Now on the other side of that coin if you bust ass at your business you can have all those things and possibly more! Best if luck!


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## B.Scott (Feb 1, 2013)

That's a great offer. I'd take it. 
If it's not for you you can always quit but if your in a good market it can provide security, benefits and retirement. 

I've had my own business for twenty years so I know how the other half lives. It's very rewarding but also slot of work.

My best friend is a union electrician and he's done very well. Will retire long before me. 

Good luck


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Needles said:


> There are two kinds of jobs in the union. Concrete work and ***** work for the GC's. Oh yeah the whole brotherhood thing is a farce. Those bitches will sell you out to keep their job in a second. Stay out of any politics and just do your work. Don't drink with the faggets and only chit chat with them during break.
> 
> I could write a book on how to worm your way though the corporate world of heavy construction. Oh yeah and if you want to get laid off like a man. Just go up to the clique members and tell them what you really think. Expect two checks that day or on Friday. :thumbsup:


Wow. I would do exactly the opposite of this.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

Yeah not really much of a problem solver!! Lol


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

slowsol said:


> Wow. I would do exactly the opposite of this.


So you would get into the politics and not do your work? :whistling 

Yes going out for drinks and brown nosing will get you very far.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Union carpenters around here are a joke. Glorified Drywall hangers that can't read a tape measure right, scared to death of a worm drive saw and for all intents and purposes...One trick ponies. What passes for a journeyman I learned the first 6 weeks on my own....I'm not kidding all they can do is hang board...that's it and oh yeah metal studs...whoa. Can't hang a door, not even a prehung. Steps and rafters? Forget it, they have to dig up a vintage carpenter from somewhere.....probably the tavern


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## Mavis Leonard (Mar 13, 2013)

Irishslave said:


> Union carpenters around here are a joke. Glorified Drywall hangers that can't read a tape measure right, scared to death of a worm drive saw and for all intents and purposes...One trick ponies. What passes for a journeyman I learned the first 6 weeks on my own....I'm not kidding all they can do is hang board...that's it and oh yeah metal studs...whoa. Can't hang a door, not even a prehung. Steps and rafters? Forget it, they have to dig up a vintage carpenter from somewhere.....probably the tavern





Damn! Iben atit since 13 for my uncl and stikframe roofs an dormerss alonebymeyself only 21now i thoughtunions promote workrskill


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Needles said:


> There are two kinds of jobs in the union. Concrete work and ***** work for the GC's. Oh yeah the whole brotherhood thing is a farce. Those bitches will sell you out to keep their job in a second. Stay out of any politics and just do your work. Don't drink with the faggets and only chit chat with them during break.
> 
> I could write a book on how to worm your way though the corporate world of heavy construction. Oh yeah and if you want to get laid off like a man. Just go up to the clique members and tell them what you really think. Expect two checks that day or on Friday. :thumbsup:


Man you nailed it I was a union carpenter and the guy you think is your buddy will stick a knife in your back the first chance he gets. It's pretty cutthroat, lots of politics. The work IMO sucks too, after about 12 years of form setting I had enough.


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

Irishslave said:


> Union carpenters around here are a joke. Glorified Drywall hangers that can't read a tape measure right, scared to death of a worm drive saw and for all intents and purposes...One trick ponies. What passes for a journeyman I learned the first 6 weeks on my own....I'm not kidding all they can do is hang board...that's it and oh yeah metal studs...whoa. Can't hang a door, not even a prehung. Steps and rafters? Forget it, they have to dig up a vintage carpenter from somewhere.....probably the tavern


I've seen this. It's sad. 

I was just at training. Interior systems was the curriculum. Had a guy that apparently did it for about 6 months straight. Couldn't lay out a 9'-6" wall with 16" centers. Apparently only hung rock. Never touched a stud. How is that even possible?

His favorite line during training; "F this, I'll never need to know this."


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## Mavis Leonard (Mar 13, 2013)

JR Shepstone said:


> I've seen this. It's sad.
> 
> I was just at training. Interior systems was the curriculum. Had a guy that apparently did it for about 6 months straight. Couldn't lay out a 9'-6" wall with 16" centers. Apparently only hung rock. Never touched a stud. How is that even possible?
> 
> His favorite line during training; "F this, I'll never need to know this."


id hateta hng rock ona wall heframed



snonds llki union brk skill down like assemble lin work master of onetask onlee no bg pictur


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

Makes sense to me.....


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## carpenter123 (Jan 7, 2013)

sounds like there gonna have you working on permit to me. a permit worker is hired when there are no guys laid off on the list and there is a demand for workers. the union will call put a call out from other locals but if no one comes or the demand for workers is still needed then they will hire permit workers. this is a good opportunity to get your foot in the door with the hall. but on the other hand though, once a member from the hall is laid off from any job then your the first to go and he /she will take your place. a company cant have permit workers working when theres members on the list. 
they might have you write that test to see how you do and then grandfather you in as a journeyman. thats a big bonus because the apprenticeship is 7000hrs, 3 8week terms of school, and the you have to pass the CFQ. I'd take the offer for sure.
Just like every job there are pro's and cons though.
pros - wage is high and doubles when OT is available
- great benefits
- great pension
Cons - the politics
- the scope of work
- lay offs
- the amount of union dues you pay in the year ( but are a tax deduction as income tax time)

I have worked non union until I got my journeyman ticket then I joined the union. the scope of work is way better non union but at the end of the day the money is better in the union. Definately take the offer and try it out


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## klyde (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks for all the input guys!! Thanks carpenter123 I think that is what the case may be, I've never heard of skipping all your apprentice hours and schooling and being able to basically jump into journeymen status. I think the boards are cleared since the papers say that MN is at a shortage of skilled Carpenters across the board, and the are some very big construction projects turning up. The new vikings stadium is supposed to be the largest construction project in MN history and employe 1500 union carpenters which takes a big chunk of an already shortage of skilled labor.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

If it is your long term goal to work a job that you can retire from and not own your own business, I think being a union carpenter is a great option. Retirement, health insurance, safety, vacation, promotions, etc. are all available with these jobs. 

It's not to say that you can't get those same benefits from a non-union company, I think you can. It's just harder to find, and usually they aren't as organized as the union signatory companies are. 

There's a lot of talk about being laid off all the time, which is true in a lot of situations. However, I think you DO need to play the politics and be one of the best workers. The most successful union workers I know play the politics are ass kickers. These guys rarely get laid off and are always first to be called back if they are.


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

You have to be breed into the culture of these companies. That means you were hired on as a apprentice. They liked you and kept you around. Card buyers and others that are hired on are typically just hired help and no matter how hard you work. You will get laid off when you are not a core employee. You will be catorgorized as "Essential Personel" and "Non-Essential Personel". 

As for playing the politics DON'T DO IT. At least until you are a established employee. It's a double edged sword. And the guy you are teamed up with. When he starts talking **** about the boss. Go tell the boss you don't want to work with him because he talks **** about the boss.:thumbsup:


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## jackrafter (Aug 27, 2012)

I would like to apologies to Mavis Leonard for a thoughtless post I made,it was brought to my attention he suffers from a traumatic injury.

I'm going to try and edit it but if I can't would a mod delete it.


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## Mavis Leonard (Mar 13, 2013)

Needles said:


> You have to be breed into the culture of these companies. That means you were hired on as a apprentice. They liked you and kept you around. Card buyers and others that are hired on are typically just hired help and no matter how hard you work. You will get laid off when you are not a core employee. You will be catorgorized as "Essential Personel" and "Non-Essential Personel".
> 
> As for playing the politics DON'T DO IT. At least until you are a established employee. It's a double edged sword. And the guy you are teamed up with. When he starts talking **** about the boss. Go tell the boss you don't want to work with him because he talks **** about the boss.:thumbsup:


bad ideea jus changethe subjecc dn't be a rat bad tooo


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

Mavis Leonard said:


> bad ideea jus changethe subjecc dn't be a rat bad tooo


Yes I know the hard reality of what really happens on union jobs is setting in..... 

I myself roll have rolled in cliques. Know the ins and outs. Know sometimes you have to get rid of a guy to get your buddy a job. That's the way it is. Trust me I am "friends" with everybody. people talk. 


There are three categories of guys on jobs. Oh he was hired off the list he must be a dreg or he is not fill in the blank company name guy, He bought his card, or FBI (friends, brothers, and inlaws). And know your place because they will let you know. :laughing:

Oh and anyone that thinks the pension is so great. Give me a break. I have 5 credits with close to 10 thousand hours. I am still under five hundred bucks a month on my retirement account. Complete Joke. If I spent another 15 years adding 15 more credits I would be at maybe 1800 a month and I would have to pay for my own medical when I am retired. :thumbsup:


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## Mavis Leonard (Mar 13, 2013)

Needles said:


> Yes I know the hard reality of what really happens on union jobs is setting in.....
> 
> I myself roll have rolled in cliques. Know the ins and outs. Know sometimes you have to get rid of a guy to get your buddy a job. That's the way it is. Trust me I am "friends" with everybody. people talk.
> 
> ...


 yep dont say no bad bout anyboy nothin too gain


that penson lookgood more thn nonunio


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

Mavis Leonard said:


> yep dont say no bad bout anyboy nothin too gain
> 
> 
> that penson lookgood more thn nonunio



Sir, You have no idea about union culture. 

Like I said in my first post. Do your work, don't get into the reindeer games and except the two checks when the job winds down. Don't get all huff and puffy. Sure maybe they will call you back when the next job starts in 6 months. But don't go holding your breath. 

And nobody but you is in control of your retirement account. Anyone can start a 401A at scottrade or similar. Don't need someone else to do it for you.


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## Snaglpuss (Mar 18, 2013)

Needles said:


> Oh and anyone that thinks the pension is so great. Give me a break. I have 5 credits with close to 10 thousand hours. I am still under five hundred bucks a month on my retirement account. Complete Joke. If I spent another 15 years adding 15 more credits I would be at maybe 1800 a month and I would have to pay for my own medical when I am retired. :thumbsup:


If you worked full time in a non union job for 5 years (10,000 hours)
would you have enough money in a 401k (if they give you one) to buy yourself an annuity that paid you $500 a month for your retirement years?
I think not.
You worked union for 5 years and what kind of pension do you realistically expect for that much time in?


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

Snaglpuss said:


> If you worked full time in a non union job for 5 years (10,000 hours)
> would you have enough money in a 401k (if they give you one) to buy yourself an annuity that paid you $500 a month for your retirement years?
> I think not.
> You worked union for 5 years and what kind of pension do you realistically expect for that much time in?


Considering they can reduce the multiplier at anytime for current year and for two year previous. Which the did. Of course they could add to the multipler and adjust it for three years also. Along with a we need to take your raise and add it to the general fund. Which was sold as going into our accounts. But that wasn't so. 

If I contributed to my own 401A read A. The same amount of money that would be 55,000 dollars contributed. That's real money G. As it is I die my wife would not be entitled to the full worth of my pension. I would leave her much less and in despair. I am glad I don't have you managing my family's future.......


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## Snaglpuss (Mar 18, 2013)

Needles said:


> Considering they can reduce the multiplier at anytime for current year and for two year previous. Which the did. Of course they could add to the multipler and adjust it for three years also. Along with a we need to take your raise and add it to the general fund. Which was sold as going into our accounts. But that wasn't so.
> 
> If I contributed to my own 401A read A. The same amount of money that would be 55,000 dollars contributed. That's real money G. As it is I die my wife would not be entitled to the full worth of my pension. I would leave her much less and in despair. I am glad I don't have you managing my family's future.......


And which nonunion contractor would have contributed $11,000 a year to your 401k?

If working union is so bad why not bail? 
I know our contract is "employment at will"
Boss can tell you to go or you can tell him to go...

See if you could work a better deal on your own.


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

I already did. I just wanted my vesting. No reason to give up my money even if I have to wait 30 years for it.......


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

It depends on where you are and the union local interests in enforcing the requirements. - And what you interests are.

I knew of many very good union brickies with whiskers and skills that took a leave in the summer to work non-union (they paid benefits in advance) to work piece work for block/brick contractors because they could make more money in the "glory summers" and have a say in the days and hours they got because of the money. The union looked the other way, because it gave union apprentices more of an opportunity to work. In the fall/winter, the union brickies went back to commercial work and worked in enclosures when the weather went bad. - Not a bad combination.

Also, some of our senior Teamster drivers would typically work 3,4 or 5 days a week driving and delivering (to get over 40 hours) and then a day or two laying block non-union to the customers they delivered to the other days.

We were a 100% union company (manufacturer/supplier), but we allowed employees some elbow room and did not violate any union requirements.


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

Needles said:


> You have to be breed into the culture of these companies. That means you were hired on as a apprentice. They liked you and kept you around. Card buyers and others that are hired on are typically just hired help and no matter how hard you work. You will get laid off when you are not a core employee. You will be catorgorized as "Essential Personel" and "Non-Essential Personel".
> 
> As for playing the politics DON'T DO IT. At least until you are a established employee. It's a double edged sword. And the guy you are teamed up with. When he starts talking **** about the boss. Go tell the boss you don't want to work with him because he talks **** about the boss.:thumbsup:


my dad owned his own business for 15 years times got tough and the commercial end was really doing good he got in the union as a journeyman about 13 years ago. He is not a super for a HUGE GC in the area and has missed less than a week in 13 years. I am an apprentice, I had some experience, but had to go as an apprentice. I have been laid off, I do not work for my dad, and I just the past year have been with a company that keeps me working. When I just worked but didnt kill myself I was laid off alot. When my dad told me to step it up a notch and get it, I have been steady. It can be good and it can be bad. If you are a great worker, you will do fine. Some scaffolding guys make over 100,000 a year. Some supers who bring skyscrapers out of the ground make over 200,000 a year. I was always told "it is what you make it", if you only wanna be a worker you will, if you wanna be more, work for it, and it will come. The company I work for, the owners best friend was working for us and he was the first to get laid off. He thought he was untouchable, but these days its about production not politics


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## Boda (Jan 18, 2013)

Take the job. Union carpentry work is dead in the residential area, all that's left is commercial work. You get a good wage and benefits, which is better than any job you will find non-union.

Yeah its tough , guys will want to sell you out to keep their job, but just keep your head down and do good work. It will speak for itself. Remember your there to put food on the table for your family, not make friends.

Save as much money as you can for when the slow times come.

Best of luck.


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

Ran into a guy from the union the other day. The first thing out of his mouth was how he was going to get a foreman fired so he could take over his crew.


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