# Seeking Towing Capacity Explanation



## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

A little background - 

Looking to upgrade the main work truck - of which it will be wearing many hats.

Mostly work related - day to day usage, tool trailer pulling, dump trailer, etc...

Also, it will eventually bear the burden of pulling a toy hauler fifth wheeler that will be weighing in at around 20k.

My question(s) - 

Will a F 450 or Ram 4500 be strong enough?
Should I look into the F550 and 5500?
How can I tell what the towing capacity of the rig is without taking the word of the seller?
What, if any, issues should I be aware of traveling with the fifth wheeler? Will I have to stop at weigh stations? Any type of special licenses or fees?

I'd imagine I'm missing a few key items as it's obvious this is all very new to me.

Any insight to this will be highly appreciated.:thumbsup:


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Here is a chart from Dodge

http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

You can't haul that much w/o a cdl and can't do it with a class 3 license.
you'll be over 26,000 gross gvw.


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## BAREIN (Dec 26, 2007)

jaydee said:


> You can't haul that much w/o a cdl and can't do it with a class 3 license.
> you'll be over 26,000 gross gvw.


He could pull his 20k toyhauler if everything was under his name, no business name on truck....right?


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

not where I'm from..
any truck & trailer combo over 26000 lbs = cdl and class 1 license.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Creter said:


> How can I tell what the towing capacity of the rig is without taking the word of the seller?



http://www.google.com/search?q="tow...0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..7.0.0.zod3lJhyq2w

One of these
http://www.google.com/search?client...am+"mechanical+engineering"&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
may have formulas for figuring this out but I don't remember it in the edition that my library has.

Commercial truck & trailer companies may have credible towing data that can be extrapolated down to the sizes you're interested in.


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

Toy haulers can be tricky. If you don't have the toy in them, the pin weight is really heavy. I'd start with looking at manufacturers towing specs. But my personal main concerns would be -axle ratio
-wheel and tire capacity
-GAWR
-hitch capacity
-pin weight of trailer 
-GVWR of tow vehicle
I think 450 would be ok, but you need to check the pin weight of the trailer, especially if you tow it without the toy.
I bet some guys would pull that with an F350.


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## BAREIN (Dec 26, 2007)

jaydee said:


> not where I'm from..
> any truck & trailer combo over 26000 lbs = cdl and class 1 license.


Almost every state has a RV exemption. MA did in 05, don't know about current. CDL is commercial most of the old folks driving motor coaches around the US do not have a CDL. As long as OP toyhauler is considered RV he should be fine if everything is registered private.


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## Mort (Jul 18, 2012)

Creter said:


> A little background -
> 
> Looking to upgrade the main work truck - of which it will be wearing many hats.
> 
> ...



Why would you not take the word of the salesman? He's paid to know that, or know where to find out.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

The salesman is paid to sell the highest profit unit.
Sometimes it's the best fit for the customer. Sometimes it's not


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Morning Wood said:


> I bet some guys would pull that with an F350.


I used to tow a 26,000 trailer with a '97 dodge 3500.

Legally too.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

JT Wood said:


> I used to tow a 26,000 trailer with a '97 dodge 3500.
> 
> Legally too.


I am pretty sure most all of the new one ton dual rear wheel trucks are rated at or around 30k towing.

Not sure i would want to stop that much with it.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

jaydee said:


> any truck & trailer combo over 26000 lbs = cdl and class 1 license.


Not quite


> According to federal rules, in any state, you need a CDL to drive any of the following vehicles:
> 
> Class A CDL: Any combination of vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating (GWVR) of 26,001 lbs. or more, provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 lbs.
> Class B CDL: Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 lbs. or more, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 lbs. GVWR.
> Class C CDL: Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 passengers or more, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.


So a combo over 26K only needs a CDL if the power unit is over 26K or the trailer is over 10K. A tractor exactly 26K and a trailer exactly 10K would not require a CDL.

http://www.dmv.org/ma-massachusetts/cdl-faqs.php


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

I would just go ahead and get the class A cdl license towing that combo. It will save you a lot of hassle in the long run. I would imagine if he is using the truck for work it will be plated commercial which screws up all the rv exemption stuff. An f350 would do it except that I know some toy haulers have incredible pin weights. More than the standard 15-20%. I would imagine a pin weight of 5k and higher would be more comfortable on a 450 than a 350.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Mort said:


> Why would you not take the word of the salesman? He's paid to know that, or know where to find out.


He also knows that to maximize his average profit he should mix lies with truth.

Vehicle salesmen are distrusted by 93% of the population, nurses are trusted by 85%. Everybody else is in the middle.

Also, they hide a few dollars of profit in many different places. As long as it's a small amount they can claim 'computer error' rather than a deliberate attempt to defraud. If these are random errors, half the time the errors will be in your favor.

If you walk in with a handheld financial calculator they'll probably throw you out.

I've also heard of a buyer who got a really good deal by mistake. The dealership then sued to nullify the contract.

Fraud is a low risk, high return, business. Of 20,000 'guests of the state' in MD only 40 are doing time for fraud.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

GettingBy said:


> He also knows that to maximize his average profit he should mix lies with truth.


And boom goes the dynamite...exactly.

Whenever I am heading into uncharted waters I like to do my research before rather than finding out later. Regardless of it being $100.00 or $500,000.00

Wife and I have been kicking tires at two local RV dealers when we have a few moments on Saturday afternoons. Neither place, when asked, disclosed that there were toy haulers available without having to go maximus. Well, one fella did say there was one - but it was very expensive and could basically just carry bicycles - not motorcycles.

I found out through research today both brands that each place sells has toy haulers in many other configurations than what they initially said.

That there in and of itself already causes me pause. This is not something we're going cheap on, but I want ALL the facts to digest BEFORE buying rather than AFTER. The same courtesy I extend to my customers.

I understand that the bigger the trailer equals potentially more commission for the sales person but from where I stand it could also lead him to make zero as for a matter of principle I'll zero in on what exactly we do want - call a dealer across state and drive there to pick it up.

But enough of that for now.

I want to say thanks for most of the responses thus far. I have learned a lot in a few short hours. Again, gettingby - you and your links...opened up a whole other can of worms - and I thank you.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Creter, here's tons of tow info. 
Just pick your year truck.http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-towing-guides/

May even want to join the forum and see if anybody else has the toy hauler you are looking at to get some opinions on it.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

TimNJ said:


> Creter, here's tons of tow info.
> Just pick your year truck.http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-towing-guides/
> 
> May even want to join the forum and see if anybody else has the toy hauler you are looking at to get some opinions on it.


Thanks Tim!:thumbsup:


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

The dealerships will think you are a pro if you write your offer on a piece of paper and hold it up just long enough for them to read it. Don't name a number out loud.
If you do this paper thing, their gloves will come off pretty quickly. :blink:

If the salesperson starts getting whiny you will very soon meet some hard players.

But don't bargain too hard. Allow them to have the reasonable profit you have figured for them beforehand.

Take along a "third baseman", somebody who badmouths the product. If you can speak some language other than English, use it.

Also, 'buying services' seem to pop up and then go under. My auto insurer had one for a while.



BTW, you may be the only person in the world who thanked me for opening a can of worms. Almost all the others were furious. :laughing::laughing:


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

he said the trailer was 20k, double the 10,001 limit.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I am pretty sure most all of the new one ton dual rear wheel trucks are rated at or around 30k towing.
> 
> Not sure i would want to stop that much with it.


I got cut off real bad once on the highway. And the semi truck beside me.

He jacknifed, and I locked up the front tires. Cost me $250 for 2 new tires the old ones had flat spots.
Stupid guy didn't even know he nearly got killed.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Morning Wood said:


> I would just go ahead and get the class A cdl license towing that combo. It will save you a lot of hassle in the long run. I would imagine if he is using the truck for work it will be plated commercial which screws up all the rv exemption stuff. An f350 would do it except that I know some toy haulers have incredible pin weights. More than the standard 15-20%. I would imagine a pin weight of 5k and higher would be more comfortable on a 450 than a 350.


In my experience, a dually is happiest at around 5k in the rear axle.

A 450 or 550 is a much stronger truck though. :thumbsup:


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

I think the 450 has a combined weight rating of 40k pounds. 

The 350 will do it as well, the 450 has more heavy duty parts which in theory should hold up better. I know they just redid a lot on the 450 for this year.


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## BAREIN (Dec 26, 2007)

Here is a chart and explanation on why private RV's do not fall under CDL rules in almost every state. http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

Taking a moment to thank each of you that have contributed to this thread. There has been a lot learned in a short amount of time.

The big rig and the big fiver does not make complete sense to me at this time considering a lot of the factors I learned from you guys and the research through the links some of you left for me to learn more from.

To justify that setup I would have to use it 2/3 rds of the year - which is something I am in not a position to do while still growing the company.

I am in a position to buy less a rig and tow toy hauler in order for us to have our time off with the motorcycles and not have to worry about boarding the dog somewhere.

So in closing...thanks guys!:thumbsup:


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Creter said:


> Taking a moment to thank each of you that have contributed to this thread. There has been a lot learned in a short amount of time.
> 
> The big rig and the big fiver does not make complete sense to me at this time considering a lot of the factors I learned from you guys and the research through the links some of you left for me to learn more from.
> 
> ...


I went with a tow behind trailer and a Diamond back cover on the back of my truck, the cover can hold 2 atv's on top while still pulling the trailer. I still had a hitch put on the back of the camper to tandem pull the boat when we go to the lake. If I get more quads I could always pull them behind the camper.


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## Trimalot (Jul 18, 2015)

I have a 39 ft bumper pull toy hauler easily pulled at 12000lb with a 1 ton diesel I looked at the 5ers it was just to much of an expense for the amount of time I used it


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

RobertCDF said:


> I went with a tow behind trailer and a Diamond back cover on the back of my truck, the cover can hold 2 atv's on top while still pulling the trailer. I still had a hitch put on the back of the camper to tandem pull the boat when we go to the lake. If I get more quads I could always pull them behind the camper.


How do you get the ATVs up there like that?


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## Trimalot (Jul 18, 2015)

The same type of ramps you use for the bed of the truck just longer


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

aptpupil said:


> RobertCDF said:
> 
> 
> > I went with a tow behind trailer and a Diamond back cover on the back of my truck, the cover can hold 2 atv's on top while still pulling the trailer. I still had a hitch put on the back of the camper to tandem pull the boat when we go to the lake. If I get more quads I could always pull them behind the camper.
> ...


The ramps are 12' long, I prefer to find a hill or slope to unload onto to help the pitch.


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

Jesus. Is all that ATV weight just on the bed rails. Tell me that thing carries the weight down to the floor somehow.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Morning Wood said:


> Jesus. Is all that ATV weight just on the bed rails. Tell me that thing carries the weight down to the floor somehow.


The cover is rated for 1,600 lbs on it. The bed rails can probably hold more than that anyways. Atvs aren't that heavy, I flipped both of those bikes over and turned both of them back by myself.


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

Dude, I've been through my share of ford truck beds. Truck beds aren't built to carry that kind of weight on the rails. If you don't have rust then you're probably ok. Any rust and all bets are off.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Morning Wood said:


> Dude, I've been through my share of ford truck beds. Truck beds aren't built to carry that kind of weight on the rails. If you don't have rust then you're probably ok. Any rust and all bets are off.


The cover goes on top of the bed rails, it distributes the weight across the rails. Take a look at their website. www.diamondbackatv.com


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

If you are ok with it no worries. I just don't trust truck beds anymore the way they make them now.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Morning Wood said:


> If you are ok with it no worries. I just don't trust at beds anymore the way they make them now.


I have one aswell but I've never hauled over 600 pounds ontop.


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

I mean my rack is rated at 1000lbs on the rails, but I don't trust that for long term use.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Rust doesn't really happen here.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

RobertCDF said:


> The cover goes on top of the bed rails, it distributes the weight across the rails. Take a look at their website. www.diamondbackatv.com


The only thing my lumber racks are stitting on are my bed rails with full length angle. I've gotten 2000 lbs on them before (actually many times) without incident.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I think this weighed in at 1900 lbs. According to my sales rep who looks it up on a chart


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