# how bout " silly things you see other carpenters do?"



## Spike7

i shake my head watching some guys working 
they just don`t know how to make the most of their time.
i`m hands on , and most guys just can`t keep up with me.
i`m 54 
i don`t think of myself as an artist or the best . i`m a good carpenter , and i`ll leave it at that .
but just watching a guy take way too long to do something just drives me nuts.
today i had my guy cut 35- 1x10`s 130 inches on the compound mitersaw
i was cutting just as many peices of another measurent on another miter saw., and i finshed in half the time .
i watched him measure a peice , and then take the speed square and make square a line on it , then run it throught the miter saw
i told him " you don`t need a square line , the saw cuts square" but he just looked at me as if i was nuts.
most just don`t know how to do volume and make the most of their time.


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## griz

Some people just do not know how to work efficiently...

MOST of the guys I have known who can work fast,efficiently, safely & produce high quality work have had a production background some where along the line.


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## ohiohomedoctor

Everything is relative. If I had my saw stops set up next to you I would have finished in half the time you did and would have spent the rest of the time shaking my head at you posting bad things about you on CT. You get what you pay for..


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## hdavis

Build a wall with 2 drywall screws in each stud, and that's all.


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## TNTRenovate

Stupid is as Stupid does...

I had three doors trimmed today in the time that it took my helper to do one. Now I am a jacka$$ when it comes to details so I understand why he took his time.


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## CrpntrFrk

I am slower than most. Always have been. I have made sure every employer I ever had know it before they hired me.

I won't sit here saying how bad a$$ I am but in my 15 years of construction I have never been fired or let go. So I must do something right.

I even had an a$$ of a boss once who made sure (yes.....*made sure*) he was always faster then me to try to prove how awesome he was. He threw a fit when I told him I was quitting. I wanted to tell him that he was so fast and the best so he would do fine without me but I always try to never burn a bridge so I kept my mouth shut.


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## Tom Struble

i use to be fast,now i'm just half fast..


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## Pete'sfeets

Perhaps you are faster because you don't have cell phone in your hand, texting and trying out new apps


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## pinwheel

Some guys know how to work 3 steps ahead & others don't. Took me years to learn to make every move count. Like the OP, I regularly outwork guys 10+ years my JR. Not because I'm bad ass, but because I've learned to make the most of ever move.


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## Tom Struble

thats exactly what i tell the wife when i get done early:clap:


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## CrpntrFrk

Tom Struble said:


> thats exactly what i tell the wife when i get done early:clap:


:lol::lol::laughing::laughing::whistling

And your man enough to admit:thumbsup::laughing:


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## griz

Tom Struble said:


> thats exactly what i tell the wife when i get done early:clap:


Pretty daing funny.....:laughing: :whistling :thumbup: :laughing

You are talking about work....right?:whistling :no: :laughing:


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## Jaws

Tom Struble said:


> thats exactly what i tell the wife when i get done early:clap:


You didn't know this was a race??? I win again, I'm thechampion. Undefeated.

I got mine, you should of got yours! 

We both knew who was getting the better deal when we got married!


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## Warren

Tom Struble said:


> i use to be fast,now i'm just half fast..


I think you mean half A$$!


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## fourcornerhome

I saw a carpenter eat squirrel brains for lunch. Right out of the skull.


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## Tom Struble

dAVINCI!!!we got that hammer starer a partner:clap:


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## Jaws

Spike, there's probably a reason your the boss. :thumbsup:

I don't ever ***** about speed as long as the quality is there. When they forget 3 or 4 things, that's another story. Lol

Its all relative. I think I'm pretty fast and good, especially when I was working side by side with my guys every day. Then I work with a real bad ass, like my dad and a few others I've worked with over the years, I realize my shortcomings. Lol :thumbsup:

My dad and those others, were never in a hurry, it was efficiency, coordination and experience that makes them faster than when I am busting azz. Speed means nothing to them, that's their name on the work, and that's what counts for a craftsman. :thumbsup:

I would like to say with age comes maturity, but I re cut a simple shoe return today three times to produce the proper result I was looking for, because I was in a hurry. The guys I mentioned before would of taken the time to make a proper cut the first time and been done quicker. :no:

Craftsmanship is what sells work at a higher price, so that is far above speed to me.


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## katoman

I used to do the work of three men. Now I'm down to only two.....:whistling

One of my favorite sayings is " an average man would be dead by now " :laughing:


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## Jaws

katoman said:


> I used to do the work of three men. Now I'm down to only two.....:whistling
> 
> One of my favorite sayings is " an average man would be dead by now " :laughing:


:laughing:


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## donerightwyo

Some of my guys have got two speeds, slow and stop. You just have to deal with it.:thumbsup:


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## moorewarner

Tom Struble said:


> so it's true


Tom I *am* your father.










NoooOOOOO....


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## Ninjaframer

moorewarner said:


> Just tell 'em to go get a spatula, then after they hunt through the tool vehicle tell 'em that you need them to pick one up for tomorrow to get everything working properly and give them $10.
> 
> Then when they show up the next day and ask how the spatula is going to help tell them that a spatula is essential equipment for a career at McDonalds.


I had an old boss who used to keep McDonald's applications in his truck just for stuff like that


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## hdavis

I was making a decorative chase for a remodel using boards. Had a sketch I wasn't happy with, but there was going to be a light swich mounted on it, so I made the body of the chase, cut to length, painted and hung it on the wall so the electricians could do their thing while I figured the last details on the chase. Turns out one of those details was I shouldn't have cut it to length...


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## hdavis

Ninjaframer said:


> Yep- "slow makes smooth, smooth makes fast"



You need to take your time in a hurry

Fast is fine but accuracy is final. You must learn to be slow in a hurry

(Wyatt Earp?)


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## Tom Struble

i remember way back reading fine home building when it was the big magazine,looking at the pretty pictures of work done by craftsmen from New England or Oregon while i was slapping on 10 sq a day of plastic

now i get to talk with those same kinds of craftsmen on here...remarkable when i think about it


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## Tom Struble

but these days 2sq is enough


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## loneframer

katoman said:


> Right, there really is no such thing as perfect. I'm satisfied when I can walk the finished job and not find any imperfections. :thumbup:
> 
> It's always a challenge, but that's what makes this work great. I love renovating - making something nice out of junk.


I forget who said it first..."Perfection is an unachievable goal. The illusion of perfection is the work of a true craftsman"....


Oh, wait, I said it first.:laughing:


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## Ninjaframer

loneframer said:


> I forget who said it first..."Perfection is an unachievable goal. The illusion of perfection is the work of a true craftsman"....
> 
> Oh, wait, I said it first.:laughing:


Long time no read lone 

Thats the real trick though isnt it- making something ok into something good, better or best.


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## tedanderson

I like the McDonald's spatula idea! :thumbup:

But even if I don't give them a spatula or an application, this is reason enough to do it "my way."

I'll tell them, "We do it this way so that we don't have to work at McDonald's. We do it this way so that we can go home mid-afternoon without having to work evenings, weekends, and holidays. And finally, we do it this way so that we don't have to wear paper hats and be subservient to some snot-nosed fresh out of college graduate who thinks he knows more than everyone else."


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## Spike7

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Everything is relative. If I had my saw stops set up next to you I would have finished in half the time you did and would have spent the rest of the time shaking my head at you posting bad things about you on CT. You get what you pay for..


lol , i was using my saw stops where i could .

you guys are a f###ing riot . lol 

i know each job has its true pace . demo ,framing , drywall is definetly something that you do faster than hanging a door , or millwork.stain grade needs to be more precise than paint-grade .... etc.
iits just that some guys just can`t make the most out of their time. when your the boss , unfortunaely you so see all this , see it as lost dollars.
the guy i brought up is a good guy, easy going , and easy to work with. he just second guesses himself all day. 
i trust him more than he trusts himself ( he`ll say " maybe you should cut this " , and i`ll say , " nope , i know you can cut it fine , just do it,"
i guess , i just do my work more fluently , because thats ll i`ve ever done ( carpentry , and remodeling )
where as , when i watch him, or alot of other guys , they have to think about " what do i do next?" he`ll not know whether to use a flat bar or a cats paw when removing a board,or he won`t know whether to ask me to help , or try to do it himself., he won`t ask , so he struggles to get started , and to get a rythm
truly , i usually keep it to myself , and let him find his way . sometimes i will say , " come on steve , your in the weeds , your thinking to much" but its never in anger


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## Spike7

hdavis said:


> You need to take your time in a hurry
> 
> Fast is fine but accuracy is final. You must learn to be slow in a hurry
> 
> (Wyatt Earp?)


yeah , thats it !


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## Ninjaframer

Well dont feel too bad, ive got one guy who is a freakin retard when it comes to building, i pay him at least 3$ an hour too much and i have to babysit him like a mother duck. But hes one of my best buds and i cant bring myself to fire him so i just keep hoping he finds a better job and quits.


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## summithomeinc

Ninjaframer said:


> Well dont feel too bad, ive got one guy who is a freakin retard when it comes to building, i pay him at least 3$ an hour too much and i have to babysit him like a mother duck. But hes one of my best buds and i cant bring myself to fire him so i just keep hoping he finds a better job and quits.


How will he find a better job when you pay him too much?? You are the "better" job


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## Ninjaframer

summithomeinc said:


> How will he find a better job when you pay him too much?? You are the "better" job


He has a commercial truck driving lisence (gave up on spelling after 3rd try) and im hoping he finds something in that field. Sad thing is he has like 30 years of construction experience. But really its like he has 30 years of first year experience, you know what i mean? Its like every time is the first time. Idk what to do, its to late now to do anything- the guy is way self-depreciating and is always saying that he sucks, and there i am sayin "no man yur doin ok " when in reality im thinking that i could have hired somebody of off davinci's crew and been better off.


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## jhark123

Tom Struble said:


> i remember way back reading fine home building when it was the big magazine,looking at the pretty pictures of work done by craftsmen from New England or Oregon or better yet Washington while i was slapping on 10 sq a day of plastic
> 
> now i get to talk with those same kinds of craftsmen on here...remarkable when i think about it


Fixed it for you :clap:


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## summithomeinc

Ninjaframer said:


> He has a commercial truck driving lisence (gave up on spelling after 3rd try) and im hoping he finds something in that field. Sad thing is he has like 30 years of construction experience. But really its like he has 30 years of first year experience, you know what i mean? Its like every time is the first time. Idk what to do, its to late now to do anything- the guy is way self-depreciating and is always saying that he sucks, and there i am sayin "no man yur doin ok " when in reality im thinking that i could have hired somebody of off davinci's crew and been better off.


I let one of my guys use my van for about a year. It was extra, I had 3. He oversprayed it with laquer, broke the windshield, and generaly ran it into the ground. The week after I took it back, hed had a new ride.

Feeling bad for a person and keeping them on, hurts them morew than helps. Let them go right away.


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## overanalyze

I watched a sparky put blue tape on a freshly painted wall so he could cut a remodel box out with a jig saw. Bragged about how detail oriented he was...took of the tape and fresh paint with it...lol. Just grab a jab saw and do it already!


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## Rich D.

overanalyze said:


> I watched a sparky put blue tape on a freshly painted wall so he could cut a remodel box out with a jig saw. Bragged about how detail oriented he was...took of the tape and fresh paint with it...lol. Just grab a jab saw and do it already!


The best part of that is an electrician with a jig saw :laughing:


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## Birch

Arguing with the Boss is one of the ultimate "Silly Things" anyone can do. :blink:

I had a pretty good carpenter/helper working for me years back, always asking for a raise he was. I'd say, "If you need more money all you have to do is show up 5 days a week instead of your usual 4. That's how you can make more money working for me, 40 hours will earn you more. Until then, you obviously don't need or deserve a raise. My first rule of raises is attendance." 

So he continued to get 4 days a week in and asking for a raise every payday too. "No. :no: Attendance! "

After about four months of 4 day weeks he finally gets in a full week and as usual asks for a raise. I said no, he quit.  :laughing:

One other "silly thing" I think other "Framers" do is mark a solo single length 2/4 square, with a square, for cutting. If you're an experienced framer then you know how to cut that 2/4 square and on the mark without marking it square with your square. :sad:


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## Ninjaframer

Birch said:


> Arguing with the Boss is one of the ultimate "Silly Things" anyone can do. :blink:
> 
> I had a pretty good carpenter/helper working for me years back, always asking for a raise he was. I'd say, "If you need more money all you have to do is show up 5 days a week instead of your usual 4. That's how you can make more money working for me, 40 hours will earn you more. Until then, you obviously don't need or deserve a raise. My first rule of raises is attendance."
> 
> So he continued to get 4 days a week in and asking for a raise every payday too. "No. :no: Attendance! "
> 
> After about four months of 4 day weeks he finally gets in a full week and as usual asks for a raise. I said no, he quit.  :laughing:
> 
> One other "silly thing" I think other "Framers" do is mark a solo single length 2/4 square, with a square, for cutting. If you're an experienced framer then you know how to cut that 2/4 square and on the mark without marking it square with your square. :sad:


2nd that!
What a waste of time. I do it with 2x6 as well unless its plate.


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## KennMacMoragh

donerightwyo said:


> Guys that won't spend the money on saw stands get me. My table saw and out feed can be set up in less than one minute. Miter saw maybe, thirty seconds. The good ones last forever too.:thumbsup:


Th table saw I agree because it's a safety issue not having a stand and out feed table. But with a miter saw if I only have to make a few cuts it's not worth it, I have to load it in my vehicle to bring on site, then unload on the job, then load it back in my vehicle when I'm done, then put it away in storage when I get home. That's four trips loading and unloading, I can cut enough base to do a whole room with the time spent doing that.


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## griz

Silly things other carpenters do....

Show up late...or not at all...

Show up without the required tools...

Only have one tape

Mooch coffee......EVERY DAY...

Show up hung over

Come back from lunch in a slightly impaired state...

Drink booze or smoke certain agricultural commodities on the job...

To name a few...:laughing::no:


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## Jaws

griz said:


> Silly things other carpenters do....
> 
> Show up late...or not at all...
> 
> Show up without the required tools...
> 
> Only have one tape
> 
> Mooch coffee......EVERY DAY...
> 
> Show up hung over
> 
> Come back from lunch in a slightly impaired state...
> 
> Drink booze or smoke certain agricultural commodities on the job...
> 
> To name a few...:laughing::no:


When i smoked i hated moochers 

I used to keep a Thermos of coffee, I always had help getting rid of it :no::laughing:


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## Jaws

Also, bringing no spare parts for hoses, no spare hoses, bringing undersized air compressors, no back up guns... all while the needed parts are in the shop


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## KennMacMoragh

When it takes two guys to lift up a piece of Sheetrock and set it on saw horses to make a cut. Then snap chalk lines on it and carefully scribe free hand with their knife.15 minutes later the two of them have a piece cut. Then it's time for both of them to take a smoke break, in between their regular scheduled coffee breaks. And at the end of the day they get pissed and start yelling at me for sweeping on the opposite side of the floor they wanted me to sweep. When I spent all day busting my butt as they had to take their smoke breaks.


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## Calidecks

Birch said:


> Arguing with the Boss is one of the ultimate "Silly Things" anyone can do. :blink:
> 
> I had a pretty good carpenter/helper working for me years back, always asking for a raise he was. I'd say, "If you need more money all you have to do is show up 5 days a week instead of your usual 4. That's how you can make more money working for me, 40 hours will earn you more. Until then, you obviously don't need or deserve a raise. My first rule of raises is attendance."
> 
> So he continued to get 4 days a week in and asking for a raise every payday too. "No. :no: Attendance! "
> 
> After about four months of 4 day weeks he finally gets in a full week and as usual asks for a raise. I said no, he quit.  :laughing:
> 
> One other "silly thing" I think other "Framers" do is mark a solo single length 2/4 square, with a square, for cutting. If you're an experienced framer then you know how to cut that 2/4 square and on the mark without marking it square with your square. :sad:


I had an employee come to me and say hey Mike, I'm here on time, I work hard and I show up everyday can I get a raise? I said to him, all that stuff you just mentioned is what your supposed to be doing why do I have to pay extra for that?


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## livingsoulsdie

overanalyze said:


> Totally agree! Just made a jig today for our cedar soffit job. It will make sure all my nails are in the exact same spot on every piece. Homeowner wants stainless nails visible. Took 10 minutes..but will make the finished product very uniform.


We just did vertical cedar siding on a house they wanted the same exposed fasteners . We made the same drill jig for the ends. Chaulked lines for the field obviously. :thumbup:


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## Stephen H

Californiadecks said:


> I had an employee come to me and say hey Mike, I'm here on time, I work hard and I show up everyday can I get a raise? I said to him, all that stuff you just mentioned is what your supposed to be doing why do I have to pay extra for that?


 reagaurding your employee : I agree entirely with you.

It's part of what I call" the pussification of america"
people want a pat on the back-for simply doing what they are supposed to do.

want a pat on the back?- I am happy to do so--if you do something above and beyond

is your work simply competent?-well no pat on the back seems to be in order-it's what I am paying you to do!

screw something up-well THAT I am gonna comment on.

In actual practice,though-most competent employees-are able to fequently catch me about to make a mistake-or remind me"remember we were going to do this XYZ"-or will suggest" Hey---I think we should set this up like so"-----so with little effort I am able to find opportunities to thank them

but pat somebody on the back or give them a raise for simply the bare minimum required to remain employed???- nope,not gonna happen,LOL
stephen


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## mehtwo

Spike7 said:


> lol , i was using my saw stops where i could .
> 
> you guys are a f###ing riot . lol
> 
> i know each job has its true pace . demo ,framing , drywall is definetly something that you do faster than hanging a door , or millwork.stain grade needs to be more precise than paint-grade .... etc.
> iits just that some guys just can`t make the most out of their time. when your the boss , unfortunaely you so see all this , see it as lost dollars.
> the guy i brought up is a good guy, easy going , and easy to work with. he just second guesses himself all day.
> i trust him more than he trusts himself ( he`ll say " maybe you should cut this " , and i`ll say , " nope , i know you can cut it fine , just do it,"
> i guess , i just do my work more fluently , because thats ll i`ve ever done ( carpentry , and remodeling )
> where as , when i watch him, or alot of other guys , they have to think about " what do i do next?" he`ll not know whether to use a flat bar or a cats paw when removing a board,or he won`t know whether to ask me to help , or try to do it himself., he won`t ask , so he struggles to get started , and to get a rythm
> truly , i usually keep it to myself , and let him find his way . sometimes i will say , " come on steve , your in the weeds , your thinking to much" but its never in anger



That was my dilemma for a long time, but it was because my parents didn't believe in me and treated me like I wasn't capable. Since I FINALLY believe that I am capable, I'm kicking a$$ and taking names. :thumbup:


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## Greg from K/W

Self confidence is a big problem I see in guys. I have that problem. Its a bugger when you get doubting yourself. It is great that you mention that you never approach his problem with anger. 

You get out of it with maturity sometimes. When it is chronic though or severe it can take a man down for life. 

This is most true with guys that had really had parents that battered them with words and never encouraged them. Ignored them when they needed to talk or had problems. 

Keep working on him like you are. With enough polishing you could have a jem of a helper.


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## Birch

Californiadecks said:


> I had an employee come to me and say hey Mike, I'm here on time, I work hard and I show up everyday can I get a raise? I said to him, all that stuff you just mentioned is what your supposed to be doing why do I have to pay extra for that?



Did he stay? Did you pay extra?


One of my long time good employees used to say something about the "Johnny come'n lately's". 

"I came in late, and I'm going home early to make up for it." :blink:


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## Calidecks

Birch said:


> Did he stay? Did you pay extra?
> 
> 
> One of my long time good employees used to say something about the "Johnny come'n lately's".
> 
> "I came in late, and I'm going home early to make up for it." :blink:


Actually I caught him smoking a fatty in his car, a couple Weeks after and fired him. 

The funny thing Is he actually said to me I cant prove that was marijuana. I told him your being fired because I dont like you. He threatened the labor board on me. I really didnt like him and the rest of the crew didnt get along with him either. IMO you can be the best carpenter in the world but if you clash with me and my crew you got to go


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## A&E Exteriors

Californiadecks said:


> . IMO you can be the best carpenter in the world but if you clash with me and my crew you got to go


Amen!


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## Crawdad

Californiadecks said:


> I had an employee come to me and say hey Mike, I'm here on time, I work hard and I show up everyday can I get a raise? I said to him, all that stuff you just mentioned is what your supposed to be doing why do I have to pay extra for that?


I worked in a foundry for a long time. At one point, the owner told me, "If Steve can go 2 weeks without being late or absent, I told him I'd give him that raise he's been wanting."

I took maybe 1 day a year, sick day, and I was always on time. I was like, "WTF, I haven't had a raise in 2 years?" 

I quit a while later, after working there for over 12 years. He was making us "cash our paychecks" in his office, not the bank. He cut everyone's pay a short time later.


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## mehtwo

Crawdad said:


> I worked in a foundry for a long time. At one point, the owner told me, "If Steve can go 2 weeks without being late or absent, I told him I'd give him that raise he's been wanting."
> 
> I took maybe 1 day a year, sick day, and I was always on time. I was like, "WTF, I haven't had a raise in 2 years?"
> 
> I quit a while later, after working there for over 12 years. He was making us "cash our paychecks" in his office, not the bank. He cut everyone's pay a short time later.


What amazes me is that people like that whine and complain about why they can't get good help, then they pull stunts like that.:whistling


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## Leo G

Spike7 said:


> i shake my head watching some guys working
> they just don`t know how to make the most of their time.
> i`m hands on , and most guys just can`t keep up with me.
> i`m 54
> i don`t think of myself as an artist or the best . i`m a good carpenter , and i`ll leave it at that .
> but just watching a guy take way too long to do something just drives me nuts.
> today i had my guy cut 35- 1x10`s 130 inches on the compound mitersaw
> i was cutting just as many peices of another measurent on another miter saw., and i finshed in half the time .
> i watched him measure a peice , and then take the speed square and make square a line on it , then run it throught the miter saw
> i told him " you don`t need a square line , the saw cuts square" but he just looked at me as if i was nuts.
> most just don`t know how to do volume and make the most of their time.


Throw 12 on a set of horses, measure the first and last, putting a pencil tick, snap a line and cut them with the circular saw. 3 cuts and you are done.


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## A&E Exteriors

Leo G said:


> Throw 12 on a set of horses, measure the first and last, putting a pencil tick, snap a line and cut them with the circular saw. 3 cuts and you are done.


Screw all that, stack your horses up and Make a jig, I used to do the whole build up (T's, corners, headers, and laps/liners/jacks/trimmers whatever you want to call them lol) in the time it took to snap out the slab or floor system.


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## Spike7

silly things :
my guy showing up , and asking almosty every day " you got a pencil i can borrow"?


when you ask for a measurement with a seasoned guy , and you see him counting the 1/16ths " its 25 and one, two , three , four ,FIVE sixteenths!"

cutting a measurent on the wrong side of the mark.

heres one that always gets me razzing the hell out of my guy 
he`ll take one cord out the truck ,and plug , and un-plug each power tool.
i always walk by and say " hey! we a one-cord company now?

truly , i have to laugh through out the day. i say these things kiddingly .bit it gets the message across 

truthfully , i belive the guys behind you are way more important than the client . most clients yiou wee one - 2 - three times , but your workers are there every day , and making you the money.

so i say these things in fun


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## mbryan

Stephen H said:


> It's part of what I call" the pussification of america"


Haha, covino and rich fan?


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## Spike7

silly things :
my guy showing up , and asking almosty every day " you got a pencil i can borrow"?


when you ask for a measurement with a seasoned guy , and you see him counting the 1/16ths
" its 25 and one, two , three , four ,FIVE SIXTEENTHS!"

cutting a measurent on the wrong side of the mark.

heres one that always gets me razzing the hell out of my guy 
he`ll take one cord out the truck ,and plug , and un-plug each power tool.
i always walk by and say " hey! we a one-cord company now?

truly , i have to laugh through out the day. i say these things kiddingly .bit it gets the message across


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## Jaws

Never seen a seasoned guy count sixteenths.....

Most seasoned carpenters see thirty seconds.....


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## Spike7

Jaws said:


> Never seen a seasoned guy count sixteenths.....
> 
> Most seasoned carpenters see thirty seconds.....


 never?

my best carpenter still has to stare and think about whether its 9/16 or 11/16. he is an awsome worker, and has every power tool known to man .
where as my helper ( with just a tool belt)says it without hestitaion.


----------



## Leo G

I screw up 11 and 13 a lot more than I'd like to admit. 7 and 9 don't seem to be an issue for whatever reason.


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## Tinstaafl

I spent one of my past lives working in a machine shop for 7 years. First day or two in construction, I tried calling out "sloppy" measurements in 32nds. 

Learned real fast to quit that. :laughing:


----------



## Jaws

Im kidding, bro. Everyone screws up, just better make sure its not expensive materials.... been there, done that.


----------



## kiteman

I'm sorry, what are these sixteens thirty seconds you guys are talking about?:whistling


----------



## Leo G

isn't that a 1/2"?


----------



## kiteman

Leo G said:


> isn't that a 1/2"?


Now that's a mark on my tape I recognize!


----------



## Leo G

Would you be upset if I told you I worked to 5 thou?


----------



## kiteman

Leo G said:


> Would you be upset if I told you I worked to 5 thou?


Not at all. Every trade has its tolerances. Mine just happens to be about the width of my pencil or chalk line. :surrender:


----------



## Calidecks

Leo G said:


> Would you be upset if I told you I worked to 5 thou?


I can't stand tape measures with 32nds makes for a too busy tape. We like to just call it out as plus or minus, or save the line cut the line out if want to a little more exact


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## Leo G

I call it light and heavy, same diff. My tapes only have 1/16ths on them, no 32nds. But my shop equipment has digital on it. It is nice for the repeatability.


----------



## moorewarner

The cabinet shop I have been working in the past week (in the field before that) does their stuff in metric.

I gotta say I am digging it. I have a a couple metric/imperial Stabila tapes on order and I could definitely see moving more and more work over to metric, framing not so much but finish, yeah. 

Would be nice to not have to count sixteenths any more. :whistling


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## Leo G

The only reason I don't is because I can't picture what 130mm is without converting it. And if I have to convert then all it is is an extra step.

But Using it in the shop wouldn't be at all hard. It's just numbers on a rule.


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## Jaws

We say 3/16 long or short

When im doing trim, i measure, i cut.


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## Leo G

That would be a 64th


----------



## Jaws

Leo G said:


> That would be a 64th


???

I meant 16ths, its late.


----------



## moorewarner

Yeah I have zero sense of metric dimensions so far either, hope it comes before long.


----------



## chewy

Speaking from a metric country a rough calc is 1 inch = 25mm, 6 inches = 150mm, 12 inches = 300mm, 6ft = 1800mm. Those conversions arent accurate but accurate in terms of recognition when someone says "just about 6ft up that wall" or "just another couple of inches" as the older generation and foreigners often say. 

There is also homeowner metric and tradesman metric, it would be worth noting that centermetres dont exist in construction and the trades, its all mm and spoken as "mill" for short, people understand if you say 810 to centres or whatever. Metres arent really used either since you would just give a measurement as 3455 saying "three four five five" rather than saying 3 metres 45 centremetres and 5 millimetres or three thousand four hundred and fifty five. We still use metres for the big stuff though.


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## moorewarner

What's the difference between "homeowner metric and tradesman metric"?


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## Spike7

catfish/carpent said:


> myself and another carpenter where putting shoe base throughout over the base trim, i think were fairly equal on our carpentry skills, and he asked me if i wanted to go through get all the measurements and write them down and he'd go out and cut them all marked out for every room and areas, i was kinda hesitate about it knowing there would be several recuts give or take 16'ths or 32'ths, in my opinion it took quite longer for me to take one back out and say shave this one a Ch every other one while i'd go back in and nail, i don't know i gave him the benifit of the doubt


i totally agree with that method.
try it a handful of times. i usually do the whole house like this 
less walking , less bending down on your knees 

also , you can scan all the rooms and start with all the longest cuts . then take the cut-offs from them , and scan all the measurements , and make the most of them .
way less waste if you don`t mind multi-tasking 4 or 5 rooms at a time


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## mehtwo

Spike7 said:


> i totally agree with that method.
> try it a handful of times. i usually do the whole house like this
> less walking , less bending down on your knees
> 
> also , you can scan all the rooms and start with all the longest cuts . then take the cut-offs from them , and scan all the measurements , and make the most of them .
> way less waste if you don`t mind multi-tasking 4 or 5 rooms at a time


Very interesting.......I never knew anybody would ACTUALLY do this. It's great to know there are people that think and work like this......:thumbsup:


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## Jonno

catfish/carpent said:


> myself and another carpenter where putting shoe base throughout over the base trim, i think were fairly equal on our carpentry skills, and he asked me if i wanted to go through get all the measurements and write them down and he'd go out and cut them all marked out for every room and areas, i was kinda hesitate about it knowing there would be several recuts give or take 16'ths or 32'ths, in my opinion it took quite longer for me to take one back out and say shave this one a Ch every other one while i'd go back in and nail, i don't know i gave him the benifit of the doubt


This is standard way. Much faster than doing one or two at a time. If you measure them right then the # of recuts will be the same as doing one at a time anyway.


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## gbruzze1

catfish/carpent said:


> myself and another carpenter where putting shoe base throughout over the base trim, i think were fairly equal on our carpentry skills, and he asked me if i wanted to go through get all the measurements and write them down and he'd go out and cut them all marked out for every room and areas, i was kinda hesitate about it knowing there would be several recuts give or take 16'ths or 32'ths, in my opinion it took quite longer for me to take one back out and say shave this one a Ch every other one while i'd go back in and nail, i don't know i gave him the benifit of the doubt


Don't make your recuts soon as you see they are off. Mark how much to take off, put to the side, and keep going. At the end you take all your recuts back to the saw, cut them then nail them all off. The use of. A laser measure will just about eliminate 90% of recuts.


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## CUT2XStillShort

livingsoulsdie said:


> I always get mad when I see someone doing a repetitive task like cutting doors or drilling wholes with the exact measurements on all the pieces & they dont have the sense to build a jig. Instead lets take out our tape 5000 times mark 5000 times . Put down tools pick them up ... Another one of my favorites is when the guy your working with has to use 4 or 5 electric powered tools on a specific task with in a 10' radius and does not have the sense to bust out a power strip or a three-way. No lets unplug and replug in every time we need to switch tools. I dont know I am just a stickler for on-site jigs. I use them from everything to marking fasteners to cutting massive loads of trim to pre-drilling and countersinking. you name it I have made a jig for it. Another one is when guys use the table-saw on the ground when they know they have a ton of rips. Take a half hour make an onsite bench out of some 2x4 and a sheet of ply for the table saw and the mitersaw and save yourself hours in the long run. Some people just dont get it sometimes i swear.


Agreed on the power cord issue.
Bosch 4100 and a power squid


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## hdavis

What's a recut?:whistling


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## Spike7

hdavis said:


> What's a recut?:whistling


its when you run your utility knife over the same cut you made on your finger yesterday:laughing:


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## Spike7

griz said:


> Silly things other carpenters do....
> 
> Show up late...or not at all...
> 
> Show up without the required tools...
> 
> Only have one tape
> 
> Mooch coffee......EVERY DAY...
> 
> Show up hung over
> 
> Come back from lunch in a slightly impaired state...
> 
> Drink booze or smoke certain agricultural commodities on the job...
> 
> To name a few...:laughing::no:


 yeah , that covers one guy i had working for me years back . 
jim would come late ,
after lunch , he`d come back with shades on to hide his " red-eyes"
he would steal hand-tools from everyone .
he would keep a red marker in his tool box , steal a tool , and quickly put his initials on it.( at lunch-time , while he was getting red-eyed , we`d all go thhroguh his tool box and get our tools back
he had the filthiest mouth .funniest guy in the world , but just so offensive .
in front of customers one day he told a laborer loudly " your dumber than a ni**er baby!"
he`d blow snot out of his nose , right in front of clients on the job site floor 
best carpenter i ever had , but just impossible. after firing him , i rehired him 6 months later. he un-loaded a planer , and sander he had stolen from me the last time . he forgot they were mine.
he just grinned a little boy grin at me when i confronted him on it " come on spike don`t get mad. i`ll give ya a blow-job! i`ll give em back to you!"
over the 3 times he worked for me ,he used the excuse for not showing up , his grandmother " died " twice .
old jim passed on since . but what memories


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## Tom Struble

so how was the blow-job?


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## hdavis

He rehired him, didn't he?


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## Tom Struble

3 times..


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## BamBamm5144

Anyone mention how the strangest thing any contractor did was to take advice from
Struble?


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## Tom Struble

i don't take advice and i don't give advice just like Howard Roark


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## Spike7

Tom Struble said:


> 3 times..


nothing gets past you bastards!


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## Tom Struble

:laughing:your ok Spike:thumbsup:


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## Jaws

Spike7 said:


> i totally agree with that method.
> try it a handful of times. i usually do the whole house like this
> less walking , less bending down on your knees
> 
> also , you can scan all the rooms and start with all the longest cuts . then take the cut-offs from them , and scan all the measurements , and make the most of them .
> way less waste if you don`t mind multi-tasking 4 or 5 rooms at a time


I did this when I was trimming production houses for Tilson. My partner and I usually knocked out an 1800 sqft house in 10-12 hours. For 50 cents a foot No crown, no window casings, one shelf closets or it was an extra.Strictly a side gig.
We had done those floor plans so many times it was like sleep walking. If we set cabinets we would either be there for 16 hours or so straight or be working sunday.

Doing custom now, I wouldnt even consider this method. Whether coping or mitering I measure, install, measure install. If I work in a team with a guy I trust , one will measure and one will cut. The measurer will install and measure the next peice. While the other guy is cutting he is measuring a peice in the closet or another room, or window casing or crown. 

Or my preffered way, I set up a saw, I measure, cut, install, you do the same. 16's count to me.


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## Jaws

Jaws said:


> I did this when I was trimming production houses for Tilson. My partner and I usually knocked out an 1800 sqft house in 10-12 hours. For 50 cents a foot No crown, no window casings, one shelf closets or it was an extra.Strictly a side gig.
> We had done those floor plans so many times it was like sleep walking. If we set cabinets we would either be there for 16 hours or so straight or be working sunday.
> 
> Doing custom now, I wouldnt even consider this method. Whether coping or mitering I measure, install, measure install. If I work in a team with a guy I trust , one will measure and one will cut. The measurer will install and measure the next peice. While the other guy is cutting he is measuring a peice in the closet or another room, or window casing or crown.
> 
> Or my preffered way, I set up a saw, I measure, cut, install, you do the same. 16's count to me.


This is not to say that everyone who uses this method is not doing top notch work, I just am not usually able to do it if I cut a whole room at one time.


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## hammerone40

We arent doing production builds so usually one piece at a time on base. As said above, we havent been able to get tolerances tight enough any other way. I do use shorthand similiar to those metioned when possible.

Casings will get a cut list. When the jambs are actually in plane and reveals dont need to be tweaked. 

Andy


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## gbruzze1

hammerone40 said:


> We arent doing production builds so usually one piece at a time on base. As said above, we havent been able to get tolerances tight enough any other way. I do use shorthand similiar to those metioned when possible.
> 
> Casings will get a cut list. When the jambs are actually in plane and reveals dont need to be tweaked.
> 
> Andy


Why cant you get tolerances down making a cut list? What's the difference measuring 20 walls then cutting 20 pieces vs measuring 1 wall then cutting 1 piece 20 times? I don't think "production trim" is the same as "rush job trim". If the measurements are accurate, and the cuts are accurate, then high-end custom trim can be done using production methods. All that's being done is eliminating unnecessary trips back and forth to the saw.


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## Jaws

gbruzze1 said:


> Why cant you get tolerances down making a cut list? What's the difference measuring 20 walls then cutting 20 pieces vs measuring 1 wall then cutting 1 piece 20 times? I don't think "production trim" is the same as "rush job trim". If the measurements are accurate, and the cuts are accurate, then high-end custom trim can be done using production methods. All that's being done is eliminating unnecessary trips back and forth to the saw.


Some guys can do this method well. I can do it passably, not within the tolerances I expect for custom work.


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## ohiohomedoctor

Jaws said:


> Some guys can do this method well. I can do it passably, not within the tolerances I expect for custom work.


You expect alot.. :whistling:


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## Jaws

ohiohomedoctor said:


> You expect alot.. :whistling:


 Its a tough road to the top :thumbsup: Only way to get there is to be a relentless SOB :thumbup:


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## Jaws

I will say, some of our guys do it this way, atleast one is better than I am, speaking terms of simultaneous crafts ability and and speed.


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## ohiohomedoctor

Jaws said:


> Its a tough road to the top :thumbsup: Only way to get there is to be a relentless SOB :thumbup:


You do it like the honey badger..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NRNsM3dFwk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Jaws

ohiohomedoctor said:


> You do it like the honey badger..
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NRNsM3dFwk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


:laughing:

We try :whistling

Maybe when/if I get to the top Ill get some A team money :laughing:


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## Jaws

ohiohomedoctor said:


> You do it like the honey badger..
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NRNsM3dFwk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Your PM box is full.


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## ohiohomedoctor

Jaws said:


> Your PM box is full.


Thanks, fixed.


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## hammerone40

gbruzze1 said:


> Why cant you get tolerances down making a cut list? What's the difference measuring 20 walls then cutting 20 pieces vs measuring 1 wall then cutting 1 piece 20 times? I don't think "production trim" is the same as "rush job trim". If the measurements are accurate, and the cuts are accurate, then high-end custom trim can be done using production methods. All that's being done is eliminating unnecessary trips back and forth to the saw.


I agree to a point. It just seems the best joints I have come from actually measuring the pieces or marking them. We scribe to the floor as needed or can cut slightly out of plumb for for existing terminations that are not square with the floor.

Maybe I just need more practice with full on cut list work. it all depends on what client is paying for.

I do agree high end work can, and should, use production methods when possible. Dont mean to equate production with rushed.


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## mehtwo

ohiohomedoctor said:


> You do it like the honey badger..


In a weird way, it reminds me of this clip:


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## r4r&r

I agree for tight tolerance I have never been able to pull of a large cut list. Not saying it can't or shouldn't be done that way I just don't seem to be able to pull it off.


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## Spike7

hammerone40 said:


> I agree to a point. It just seems the best joints I have come from actually measuring the pieces or marking them. We scribe to the floor as needed or can cut slightly out of plumb for for existing terminations that are not square with the floor.
> 
> Maybe I just need more practice with full on cut list work. it all depends on what client is paying for.
> 
> I do agree high end work can, and should, use production methods when possible. Dont mean to equate production with rushed.


main thing is , if your the cutter , than you should do the measuring , 

maybe your not good at measuring pretty precise ( no offense ) 
i see alot of guys who still have trouble reading a tape accurately when its laying on an inside corner . they arent sure exactly where that measurement is on the tape , you know?

of course there are areas , like you meantioned that need t.l.c. and have to be babied , and customed .
but the majority of ost homes is fairly true


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## hammerone40

I agree that he who measures, cuts.

I disagree that my measurements lack precision. 

We have not been able to duplicate the tolerances we achieve fitting one piece to the next. I'm Just not convinced that cut lists should ALWAYS be used and that not using that method is silly. 

Use the method that fits the job.


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## mbryan

Spike7 said:


> i see alot of guys who still have trouble reading a tape accurately when its laying on an inside corner . they arent sure exactly where that measurement is on the tape , you know?


Saw this on a Katz program. Cut a block to be say 4" and put a mark on the wall. Measure to the line and then add for the block. The walls 34"+4" block is 38".


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## Tinstaafl

mbryan said:


> Saw this on a Katz program. Cut a block to be say 4" and put a mark on the wall. Measure to the line and then add for the block. The walls 34"+4" block is 38".


Use that technique with caution. I once bought a window after forgetting to add the 10" block length to my measurement. :laughing:


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## Leo G

Stupid block :laughing:


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## overanalyze

Yep..the ol one inch short trim too...stupid inch I burnt then forgot in 15 seconds..


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## mbryan

overanalyze said:


> Yep..the ol one inch short..


hey!


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## Leo G

Sorry to hear that.


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## hdavis

mbryan said:


> Saw this on a Katz program. Cut a block to be say 4" and put a mark on the wall. Measure to the line and then add for the block. The walls 34"+4" block is 38".


Or use one of these:

http://www.woodcraft.com/PRODUCT/20...ode=10INGOPB&gclid=CIS22Jn7x7ECFQff4AodqX8AxA


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## Spike7

yeah , "be wary of the block

i just take my pencil , and run it right in the corner , then push that tape till it touches the pencil mark , and voila !! there it is !!
the crowd roars !! 
( oh , no ....thats the t.v. , the olympics are on )


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## Spike7

back to " silly things "

a painter on the job ( years back) had a ladder on an expensive floor rug.

he was touching up on the ceiling , and had the gallon sitting on the top of the ladder..
he turned quickly , and bump the ladder , and the whole gallon of paint spilled all over the expensive rug.

he looked around quickly panicking!
he saw the cat walking into the room
he grabbed the cat and dropped it into the spilled paint.
he started cussing and screaming" god d###it, oh my god!!!"
client ran into the room , and said " what happened??"
" that damn cat knocked over the paint !!look at this !! all over your rug !!, i can`t beleive it!!

quick thinking huh?


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## Tom Struble

oh spike..:shifty:


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## Warren

Spike/davinci??????


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## Tom Struble

na Spike knows how big a 2x4 is:whistling


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## ohiohomedoctor

Tom Struble said:


> na Spike knows how big a 2x4 is:whistling


I think I know this one............ 2......... byyyyyyyy....... 4?......right?


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## Tom Struble

shh. he will post a 2x4 thread and get 15 pages on it:whistling


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## Spike7

Tom Struble said:


> shh. he will post a 2x4 thread and get 15 pages on it:whistling


 hey! YOU MOCKIN ME!?


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## Tom Struble

not unless you can't read:whistling


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## Spike7

hey how bout a post on what guys bring for lunch?
i remember once , i was eatin my ham , and squirrel gravy sandwich , and .this guy comes up , and.........................................


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## Tight Trim Tim

2 carpenters and I were installing crown...2 installers and 1 cut man...the cut man and I had been working for our boss for a number of years...the other guy was the FNG(F-ing new guy)...we put he new guy on working the corners(to see how he is as a trim carpenter)he wasn't quite getting it...and instead of saying he doesn't have much crown installation experience he kept making excuses(these walls/ceiling are bad, this cut man isn't that good ect). At one point he's fighting with this corner for agood while...the cut man comes in and says to me " How long are you gonna let him struggle?" I said "As long as it takes....that's how he'll learn." The struggling carpenter says "its not me its the cut man...he's not cutting these properly...I need this cut adjusted. Take nothing to nothing off!" The Cutman and I look at each other confused. Cutman "ok". Grabs the board and goes to the saw...I hear the saw turn on run for a minute then turn off. Cutman comes back in and hands us the piece of crown. It luckily slides right into place. Struggling carpenter says "If you'ld cut the pieces correct to begin with Iwouldn't have to struggle!" Cutman just starts laughing. I walk over to the cutman with a confused look and say " did you recut that piece?" He says "no! I just turned the saw on and then brought the piece back in!" Lmfao


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## Dirtywhiteboy

Tight Trim Tim said:


> 2 carpenters and I were installing crown...2 installers and 1 cut man...the cut man and I had been working for our boss for a number of years...the other guy was the FNG(F-ing new guy)...we put he new guy on working the corners(to see how he is as a trim carpenter)he wasn't quite getting it...and instead of saying he doesn't have much crown installation experience he kept making excuses(these walls/ceiling are bad, this cut man isn't that good ect). At one point he's fighting with this corner for agood while...the cut man comes in and says to me " How long are you gonna let him struggle?" I said "As long as it takes....that's how he'll learn." The struggling carpenter says "its not me its the cut man...he's not cutting these properly...I need this cut adjusted. Take nothing to nothing off!" The Cutman and I look at each other confused. Cutman "ok". Grabs the board and goes to the saw...I hear the saw turn on run for a minute then turn off. Cutman comes back in and hands us the piece of crown. It luckily slides right into place. Struggling carpenter says "If you'ld cut the pieces correct to begin with Iwouldn't have to struggle!" Cutman just starts laughing. I walk over to the cutman with a confused look and say " did you recut that piece?" He says "no! I just turned the saw on and then brought the piece back in!" Lmfao


Welcome TTT, I see your in Palm Beach ? Isn't that a small island with some high end homes on it! I used to do work in West Palm Beach at times. We have a lot of members in that area:thumbsup:


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## Tight Trim Tim

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Welcome TTT, I see your in Palm Beach ? Isn't that a small island with some high end homes on it! I used to do work in West Palm Beach at times. We have a lot of members in that area:thumbsup:


Thanks Dirty, Im actually in lake worth, but meant to put Palm beach County...I do the majority of my work on high end custom homes on The island of Palm Beach!


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## JSM_CC

tedanderson said:


> The one thing that irks me is when I see someone confronted with a difficult task.. sometimes impossible.. and they will just whine and complain for 2 hours about what's messed up about the task at hand and why it can't be done.
> 
> Or.. they'll come to the conclusion that it can be done but they will complain and moan over what it will take to do it. They do that heavy mouth breathing as they say, "huuuhhhhhhh! Now I gotta go get a level. hhhuuuuuhhhh! Now I need a chalk line. huuuuhhhhh! now I gotta put a new blade in the saw...huhhhhhh!"


I've almost lost a couple jobs from some employees with this mentality....not sure why they care. It all pays the same for them.


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## JSM_CC

Ninjaframer said:


> 2nd that!
> What a waste of time. I do it with 2x6 as well unless its plate.


Shoot, I do it with 14" tji and plywood.....j/k but its nice to use my table for quick rips of 1-1/2 & 3-1/2.


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## JSM_CC

Last winter I saw two guys take two weeks to install 26 kitchen cabinets. They spent nearly 2 days on the first cabinet. Can you believe that they were a HD contractor?[/QUOTE]

That's what you call milking it for all its worth...


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## JSM_CC

Gus Dering said:


> I live on what is left over. I want as much as possible to be left over.
> 
> I'm not looking for "faults". I'm looking for deviations from our system and ways to improve productivity. Some would call that supervision.


Sounds like "pick-up", "backing out" , or the punch list?


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## JSM_CC

over the 3 times he worked for me ,he used the excuse for not showing up , his grandmother " died " twice .
old jim passed on since . but what memories[/QUOTE]

Um dont most people have 2 grandmothers?


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## Dirtywhiteboy

JSM_CC said:


> Um dont most people have 2 grandmothers?


Only people with 2 parents do and sometimes not even then.


----------



## Tight Trim Tim

JSM_CC said:


> Last winter I saw two guys take two weeks to install 26 kitchen cabinets. They spent nearly 2 days on the first cabinet. Can you believe that they were a HD contractor?


That's what you call milking it for all its worth...[/QUOTE]

If they were hd contractors they weren't milking for all its worth...they were losing money...hd pays by the job not the hr. They were just lost/confused!


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## fjn

*boots*



Tom Struble said:


> you gotta train them young,i was trained by a hack..well not really a hack i guess i should say...what do you call someone more concerned with going fast?:whistling


 It must be a regional thing,here in mid-west we call them "boots" as in a shoemaker:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Needles

Morning Wood said:


> Yeah, when my miters are a little off I just start bashing things with my hammer.




I have a finish carpentry book by Gary Katz that shows scaping corners to make trim fit flat to the wall. 

I would say anyone that doesn't tune a bad corner is lazy. :whistling


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## Leo G

I just take out the PC 2 1/2" belt sander and grind the back of the molding down. If it's pine it goes in a few seconds.


----------



## mgb

That's why i feel its necessary to always have my apron plane with me. Can adjust miters, or just improve the fit of some peices.


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## smpcarpentry

]I have got a good one :thumbsup: 














i told the owner good job u saved some money:clap: it is a store in worcester


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## asgoodasdead

smpcarpentry said:


> ]I have got a good one :thumbsup:
> View attachment 120204
> 
> View attachment 120205
> 
> i told the owner good job u saved some money:clap: it is a store in worcester


yeah, who needs to snap lines?


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## kiteman

smpcarpentry said:


> ]I have got a good one :thumbsup:
> View attachment 120204
> 
> View attachment 120205
> 
> i told the owner good job u saved some money:clap: it is a store in worcester


Hey, Don't go blaming that on the carpenters!:no::no::no:


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## smpcarpentry

kiteman said:


> Hey, Don't go blaming that on the carpenters!:no::no::no:


Thats the silly part the guy doing it is the carpenter i did a floor and finish on another store for the owner i was to expensive for this time around cannot imagine why


----------

