# 5 – Star flashing details



## MEL (Apr 7, 2007)

This house has fiber cement siding. Are you going to replace the siding on both walls so that you can get the new apron flashing and step flashing installed?

This house also has front porch roof across the front, if you have to take off the siding to get the new apron flashing in all of that siding would have to be replaced also.


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## MEL (Apr 7, 2007)

*Brick wall flashing*

This house has existing counter flashing that is stepped. To qualify for 5-Star coverage you would have to cut a notch in the brick and insert the counter flashing. To me that seems like a lot of unnecessary work.

It seems like it would be difficult to cut a notch in the brick without damaging the wood trim that is below the soffit.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

What we do if necessary, is cut the siding high enough to get the old flashing out and the new in. We then install a trim board parallel to the roof. 

If the corner boards are fiber cement, we plan on replacing them to get the new apron in.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

What brand of shingles has the 5-star warranty?


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## MEL (Apr 7, 2007)

seeyou said:


> What brand of shingles has the 5-star warranty?


CertainTeed, you have to be a Select ShingleMaster, 5 star covers workmanship and tear off for 25 years, 100% coverage.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Install new apron base flashing over the existing if necessary. This is S.O.P. for us.

I don't see why you would have to remove the siding. The old flashing can often be removed by loosening the siding, sometimes without loosening the siding at all, really just depends on how it was installed. See you also has a good idea about the trim board, as we've had to do that in extreme cases. Once a few of the baby tins were backwards funneling water into the building instead of sheding it away. In that case we were forced to cut the aluminum siding using a reverse plywood blade using a straight edge as a guide, and then after the roof was done, we install a 1x4 and trimmed it out with aluminum coil. No complaints, and that was 6 years ago. 

I don't know what you mean about cutting the notch in the brick, although as a standard I would reflash that wall using the same stepped counter flashing method that is there. i would NOT reuse that old flashing. We replace all flashings when ever possible. I see no reason to reuse the old flashing. Can you provide documentation that certainteed would require a cut brick reglet method of flashing? I don't see the upper frieze board from the 2nd floor being a problem at all. Actually that friezeboard acts much like a counter flashing, and where that particular piece of flashing terminates I see no reason for it to be raggled into the brick, certainly it would have a baby tin slid behind the frieze board which would be acceptable by my standards. 

FWIW that frieze board can likely be loosened from the brick if necessary as well. I would bet some kind of masonry screw was used to fasten it, find the screws loosen then and you can peel the frieze board away from the wall a few inches if necessary.

Certainteed has the 5 star warranty. See that's why I say for me the 5 star is a short jump (or small upcharge), since we are already doing our roof to 5 star specs anyways. Are there some houses I simply would not sell the 5 star on? Yeah a cut up dog that makes me scratch my head and say "wtf was the designer thinking?!" but I haven't seen that one yet since I started selling the 5 star. Like anything, there are no one size fits all solutions, but for me and the way I do things, the 5 star fits most situations.


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## MEL (Apr 7, 2007)

Grumpy said:


> Install new apron base flashing over the existing if necessary. This is S.O.P. for us.
> 
> I don't see why you would have to remove the siding. The old flashing can often be removed by loosening the siding, sometimes without loosening the siding at all, really just depends on how it was installed. See you also has a good idea about the trim board, as we've had to do that in extreme cases. Once a few of the baby tins were backwards funneling water into the building instead of sheding it away. In that case we were forced to cut the aluminum siding using a reverse plywood blade using a straight edge as a guide, and then after the roof was done, we install a 1x4 and trimmed it out with aluminum coil. No complaints, and that was 6 years ago.
> 
> ...


I can locate some images later on.

If you look at the flashing details in the manual you will see that they require you to cut a groove in the brick that they refer to as a Reglet. The metal has to be bent so that you insert it into the Reglet.

The frieze board I am referring to is the one by the upper roof. If you are cutting a Reglet into that brick wall your blade is going to cut into the frieze board unless you stop short.


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## MEL (Apr 7, 2007)

Stepped counter flashing is unacceptable for a 5-star warranty.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

In the BRICK or in the MORTAR? I'm goign to check my S.A.M right now. Into the mortar is no problem, that's how it shoudl be done. Into the brick I do not agree within in most situations. However we would cut into stucco... checking NOW. if that stepped counter flashing doesn't have a lip penetrating into the mortar joint then IMO it's purely cosmetic.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Page 61 of the SAM 9th edition "Masonry Chimney and Walls"... 

"This optional counter flashing technique uses a continuous metal piece instead of the typical staggered (stepped) counter flashing along the side of a chimney or wall with mortar joints." 

I do mine in the traditional stepped counter flashing with mortar joints method. PHEW you scared me for a minute that I was in violation of their installation instructions. Look at figure 6-11.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

MEL said:


> Stepped counter flashing is unacceptable for a 5-star warranty.


Tell me where I can read those words. Figure 6-11 on page 61 says otherwise.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

The straight line flashing method requirement was hanging me up as well. That's why I asked about the brand.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

With regard to step and apron flashings being replaced, its not that hard if you use the proper technique. Doesnt matter what kind of siding and have even done it with stucco.

Each situation will be differnt but generaly you can cut off the metal that extends onto the roof. You could use the old smooth flashing surface to slide in your baby tins and gutter apron or if you can remove the old you could do that to, but the smooth surface will help. put a slight curve toward you in the very upper portion of the flashing and round off all the corners of each flashing piece. This has worked for me for as long as I have been roofing. Was taught this way. It works and works well if you know what to do.
With some sidings, sometimes you need to loosen it up just a bit for it to work.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

MEL said:


> CertainTeed, you have to be a Select ShingleMaster, 5 star covers workmanship and tear off for 25 years, 100% coverage.


I would put my money on storm damage before CT pays an entire bill that is 25 years old. Just sayin'.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

red_cedar said:


> With regard to step and apron flashings being replaced, its not that hard if you use the proper technique. Doesnt matter what kind of siding and have even done it with stucco.
> 
> Each situation will be differnt but generaly you can cut off the metal that extends onto the roof. You could use the old smooth flashing surface to slide in your baby tins and gutter apron or if you can remove the old you could do that to, but the smooth surface will help. put a slight curve toward you in the very upper portion of the flashing and round off all the corners of each flashing piece. This has worked for me for as long as I have been roofing. Was taught this way. It works and works well if you know what to do.
> With some sidings, sometimes you need to loosen it up just a bit for it to work.


The geniuses around here jam the siding right into the roofing more often than not. So we're usually dealing with bad siding right against the roof anyway. 

If the proper spacing is there, we can use your method except at the corners. There's no way to solder the corner with a corner board in the way. If the corner board is wood, it's easy enough to pull and replace. But if it's fiber cement, the odds are good it's gonna break. We use a lot of PVC, but haven't had to re-roof around any of it yet.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

No one is gonna screw up 
any of my brick with a straight
saw cut like that.
That is just lazy crap.
Brick should have a longer life 
than any one's shingles.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

seeyou said:


> The geniuses around here jam the siding right into the roofing more often than not. So we're usually dealing with bad siding right against the roof anyway.
> 
> If the proper spacing is there, we can use your method except at the corners. There's no way to solder the corner with a corner board in the way. If the corner board is wood, it's easy enough to pull and replace. But if it's fiber cement, the odds are good it's gonna break. We use a lot of PVC, but haven't had to re-roof around any of it yet.


What i do if the siding is up against the roof then I use a circular saw and reciprcating saw in parts to cut 1.5 inches off the roof. And your right, the corners cannot be soldered unless you burn up some stuff.
The whole process can take some time if you havent done it before. 
Even with fiber cement, all you need is a smooth surface for the metal
to slide up against. some rigidity with the flashing helps as well, like a min.
.019 aluminum. Most things give even if its just a little.
With the corners, if you use the sawzall you can cut a sliteven with the sidewall for the first tin.

The point though with the OP is all the hassel for a 5 star. I just thought I would help with the not replaceing the siding part.
Mel is right though.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Hardi siding must remain 2" above the shingles. This will provide plenty of room to install new flashing if necessary. If you are re-doing a roof, and the siding is tight, you can cut it with a circular saw with a diamond blade. Hardi also shows a detail for those who don't like the 2" gap. It involves bending a custom piece of coil that becomes a trim piece and flashing all in one.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

MJW said:


> I would put my money on storm damage before CT pays an entire bill that is 25 years old. Just sayin'.


 Of coarse the manufacturers are smart. There are 99 ways for them to get out of paying and most of them have to do with storms, people moving, people forgetting etc... I do not disagree, but I/we will cross that bridge when the time comes.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Warren said:


> Hardi siding must remain 2" above the shingles. This will provide plenty of room to install new flashing if necessary. If you are re-doing a roof, and the siding is tight, you can cut it with a circular saw with a diamond blade. Hardi also shows a detail for those who don't like the 2" gap. It involves bending a custom piece of coil that becomes a trim piece and flashing all in one.


vinyl should be 3/4" but how many guys install it flat ont he roof surface. I don't know how many customers I have had to pull out the spec book and say "look your neighbor's siding is wrong, this is how it's supposed to be done." I've never done 2" with my fibercement to be honest, Usually just 5/4".


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## MEL (Apr 7, 2007)

Grumpy said:


> Page 61 of the SAM 9th edition "Masonry Chimney and Walls"...
> 
> "This optional counter flashing technique uses a continuous metal piece instead of the typical staggered (stepped) counter flashing along the side of a chimney or wall with mortar joints."
> 
> I do mine in the traditional stepped counter flashing with mortar joints method. PHEW you scared me for a minute that I was in violation of their installation instructions. Look at figure 6-11.



I don’t have a manual at this location so I’ll check it tomorrow. The 9th addition may be different.

I’ve asked my local rep about this and he told me that the edge of the flashing has to be inset into the brick or mortar joint.

When you have staggered counter flashing only the horizontal edge is inset into the mortar joint, the vertical edge is just pressing against the brick it’s not inset into a mortar joint. Typically the vertical edge of the flashing is only sealed with caulk. That’s why they want you to cut the Reglet.

To qualify for a 5-star warranty everything has to comply with the Integrity Roof System. If you are setting both the vertical edge and the horizontal edge of your staggered counter flashing into a mortar joint then that would qualify. If you are only setting the horizontal edge into the mortar joint and the vertical part is only pressing up against the brick it would not qualify.


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## MEL (Apr 7, 2007)

Grumpy said:


> Page 61 of the SAM 9th edition "Masonry Chimney and Walls"...
> 
> "This optional counter flashing technique uses a continuous metal piece instead of the typical staggered (stepped) counter flashing along the side of a chimney or wall with mortar joints."
> 
> I do mine in the traditional stepped counter flashing with mortar joints method. PHEW you scared me for a minute that I was in violation of their installation instructions. Look at figure 6-11.


I found this picture in another thread.

Notice how the vertical edges are angled back to prevent water from getting in, this is better that a vertical edge that is straight up and down.

I’m not knocking this guy’s work but this type of flashing would not meet the requirement of the Integrity Roof System.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Since all flashing must be replaced in order to get the 5 Star you would have to cut into each motor joint and install new flashing. Or just install new step flashing and new counter flashing on top. Never had one leak this way and IMO it looks just fine. 

My Dad has cut many miles of riglel in his days with no call backs. We can do the fashing in the motar lines as well just opt not to. I feel the straight looks better than the stairs going up the chimney look.


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## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

I see no requirement in the Certainteed SAM that says the vertical of the counter flashing needs to be cut in. It does say that a 3" lap is needed. If you look at figure 6-10 on page 61 of the ninth edition SAM there is no indication of a vertical lip extending into a vertical reglet. Looking at fig. 6-14 for the optional continuous counter flashing, the detail shows no requirement for a vertical reglet cut into the masonry joint or brick.

Am I missing something?


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

I think some misinterpretation of requirements is hanging Mel up. I suspect he is listening to the sales rep and he is BS's Mel.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Again in order to get the Certainteed 5 Star Warranty ALL FLASHINGS must be replaced. That would tell me and I'm not very smart that ALL FLASHING must be replaced which would make me think even flashing around chimney's, brick, stucho, etc would have to be removed and replaced.

The MSA 8 or 9 is not based entirely on the Integrity Roofing system and when I read the MSA 8 book made no comments on requirements for the 5 Star Warranty.

At the last two Certainteed Roofing Advisory Counsil Meetings we talked about it and yes what you read above is what was said of the requirement for the 5 star. This was right from the mouth of Mr. Butch.


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## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

Framer53,

Methinks you may be correct. I just happen to have an original BS detector which closely resembles a cow bell. If one suspects BS in a conversation, one needs only to pick up said BS Detector and shake vigorously. 

If BS is indeed present, the shaken BS Detector will ring loudly. :clap:


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