# Union Vs Non Union



## Justintyler (Feb 25, 2021)

Hello my name is Justin I am 20 years old and love the trade of carpentry. On my free time I love to build furniture in my garage. I was thinking about getting into the trade of more rough carpentry. Things like framing. I was wondering y'alls opinion on Union vs non union. I understand that the union has great benefits but it seems like they do a lot of industrial stuff. My question is, is there like a branch that does rough framing with wood in the carpenters union. Or is it all metal studs and scaffolding? Thank you for any input that one can give on the pros and cons of both!


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Hey Justin. I was in the carpenters union when I was your age. The Indiana, Kentucky, Ohio area was largely union then. It was very political then. You played the game or you didn’t & if not you didn’t work as much as the azz kissers. I couldn’t rub shoulder w/those guys. I went to work for a big G.C. & never looked back. Started on my own 2 years later. I would check around w/G.C’s & stay on them. If you keep on em, they know you want to work. As far as the union work, then it was whatever was available commercial wise. Formwork to office building. Don’t know how union operations are now but I’m sure the same. I would look hard @ the bennies if you go that route

Mike


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I have always been very pro union in general. 

I was in a Non construction union in my teens, and then joined the IBEW.

However, nowadays they are just another corporation for the most part, political, corrupt, and in it for themselves while they screw whoever is actually making the money. Kind of like the government in general.

In addition, the unions won. They changed wages and working conditions for everyone. I feel like they have kind of out lived their usefulness.

And nowadays they are so specialized that you might not end up with a well rounded construction education, especially in the carpenters hall.


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## Fishindude (Aug 15, 2017)

Very few real carpenters in the carpenters unions anymore. Most of their work centers around concrete form construction, shoring, scaffold, metal framing, etc. They don't work with all that much wood and don't doo much finish carpentry or trim work.


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## rjconstructs (Apr 26, 2009)

I have an inherent dislike for unions in general. Union workers I have known are laid off for months at a time, if not permanently. I was talking to a union carpenter once, the topic of nail guns came up. He said they aren't allowed to use them. I said why? His answer...it takes a job away from another employee. So by design they are supposed to work less efficiently to draw the job out longer.


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## RacinMason (Oct 26, 2017)

rjconstructs said:


> I have an inherent dislike for unions in general. Union workers I have known are laid off for months at a time, if not permanently. I was talking to a union carpenter once, the topic of nail guns came up. He said they aren't allowed to use them. I said why? His answer...it takes a job away from another employee. So by design they are supposed to work less efficiently to draw the job out longer.


Isn't that 16CC sinker stronger than a nail gun?


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Ask a guy "Asgoodasdead" on here. He's young-ish and is in the Carpenter's Union. Personally, I would never want to be in a union, not enough freedom. Think about your long term goals though. If it's security and stability, a union is not that bad of a way to go.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Deckhead said:


> Ask a guy "Asgoodasdead" on here. He's young-ish and is in the Carpenter's Union.


I thought he was a pipe fitter or something but not a carpenter.
Oh edit,, yep I remember now he's working on some broken bridge.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

I spend half my time doing union work because they control most of the work here.
The pay is not too bad. The 5K every 6 months for vacation pay isn't bad and the health insurance is excellent! Lots of nepotism here and I'm a white guy in a brown mans world.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Yup I was making bank in the union. It's very cutthroat. Hard to trust anyone. 


Mike.
*___*


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Op, I forgot to mention back then if you were not placed on a job, you went to the union hall each & every morning. At times waiting for 2-3 hours to wait to be called out, if you were lucky enough to get called out. This could go on, as mentioned above for months, lots of wasted down time. Time that could be spent finding work elsewhere. But— like Mike said bennies were tops. I had blue cross-shield & didn’t pay a dime for it. There will be down time, then again there’s boom or bust in the private sector. I like freedom. You won’t do any wood carving in the union. Form work, metal studs & all commercial. But you can gain knowledge from millwright etc. there also. Good luck

Mike


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

Location, Location, Location - can impact all of your questions though generally it will only be in shades. Hands down though I give props to the unions for their training programs


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## RacinMason (Oct 26, 2017)

My problem with the unions is....if you're out of work with them, you can't go do that job for someone else, non-union. It's like they're saying "we can't keep you busy, and we won't let you work somewhere else".


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## Fishindude (Aug 15, 2017)

RacinMason said:


> My problem with the unions is....if you're out of work with them, you can't go do that job for someone else, non-union. It's like they're saying "we can't keep you busy, and we won't let you work somewhere else".


Our company at one time was union. We went non union and a few of the key older union guys that knew and trusted us came along.
My biggest beef with the unions is the inability to jump back and forth between trades really limits what you can use a man for. Also not fond of everyone being paid the same regardless of skill level or ambition.

I've had a few hard head union guys give me grief regarding pay scale, etc. Had to explain that they didn't know what the heck they were talking about. All of our guys know where the union hall is and could quit anytime they wanted to join up, but they stay with us because the pay, benefits and working environment is a whole lot better, plus they work year round.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

RacinMason said:


> My problem with the unions is....if you're out of work with them, you can't go do that job for someone else, non-union. It's like they're saying "we can't keep you busy, and we won't let you work somewhere else".


We never have that problem here. No union work we can go seek more union or we do our own work or work for anyone else.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

RacinMason said:


> My problem with the unions is....if you're out of work with them, you can't go do that job for someone else, non-union. It's like they're saying "we can't keep you busy, and we won't let you work somewhere else".


Well your not supposed to work for a nonunion outfit when you’re out of work however I have a bunch of guys that work for me when they are not busy

But you have to be careful with getting caught working on a non union job especially if you are drawing a pension 


David


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## shanewreckd (Oct 2, 2014)

I spent nearly 10 years doing union carpentry. Take all this with a grain of salt, because it was mostly through the Operating Engineers union, and we were the only company in the union with carpenters I'm aware of. I didn't do a single scaffolding job or steel stud job, the vast majority was wood free forming or steel gang forming, with actual wood framing in most of our renovations, steel stud got subbed out. I did spend time in the BC CMAW carpentry union, which was entirely scaffolding around here. Saw and pulp mill shut downs and lots of down time in between. Never had a union back up a dispute I've had though, because they are no longer what they were intended for, they are for their own profit. Unions pay better as a general rule of thumb, and apparently in the states they actually have training for their guys, but the hours are usually longer, jobs aren't always local, and that POS that smokes more than works gets paid the same as you (or lots of time more than you because he's friends with your super and gets foreman rate).

I've said it before on here, you can make good money and a good life wherever you want, union or not, but the jobsite culture matters to me more than anything else. Good bosses, a crew with a vibe, and maybe not 60+hour work weeks.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

A year or so ago I was working near a non union construction site where they were building a large condo complex. Apparently there was a laid off union worker working on the jobsite. He parked his Rat Patrol car a block away and walked to the site. For those who don't know, the car is an old police car with rat patrol written on the sides along with union stuff and signs saying don't hire scabs. The inflatable rat is usually in the trunk. So here is the union guy being a scab while telling everyone not to hire scabs

kinda like this

__
https://flic.kr/p/HN5BHo









Operating Engineers 520 calls Rat Patrol on Don’s Asphalt at Laura Buick - The Labor Tribune


Collinsville, IL – Members of Operating Engineers Local 520 called in the Rat Patrol on Thursday, July 9, at Laura Buick at 903 N. Bluff Road, where non-signatory contractor Don’s Asphalt is performing parking lot work paying below area standard wages and benefits negotiated by Local 520...




labortribune.com


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Windycity said:


> Well your not supposed to work for a nonunion outfit when you’re out of work
> 
> 
> David


Who says this??? I was told by big shot in our local to do what you need to do to take care of my family.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Who says this??? I was told by big shot in our local to do what you need to do to take care of my family.


The whole point in joining a union is to be United against lower paid non workers/companies 

The only strength the union has is for its members to be united

At least the locals here are set up where if a union member whom is drawing a pension is caught working for cash their pension gets penalized/fined


David


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Windycity said:


> The whole point in joining a union is to be United against lower paid non workers/companies
> 
> The only strength the union has is for its members to be united
> 
> ...


How much pension do they get? What union is this?


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

The point of a Union was not to unite against other workers, but to give the workers power over unethical companies.

The heyday of unions was when people worked 60-80 hour weeks, no overtime, in dangerous conditions, for crap wages, and the companies killed workers by the thousands.

With the LRB, EDD, OSHA, and on and on, the unions got implemented across the board what they were fighting for.

Hence my belief that they have sort of outlived their usefulness.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

But ask a union man and they believe they are sticking it to the evil corporations. 


Mike.
*___*


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> The point of a Union was not to unite against other workers, but to give the workers power over unethical companies.
> 
> The heyday of unions was when people worked 60-80 hour weeks, no overtime, in dangerous conditions, for crap wages, and the companies killed workers by the thousands.
> 
> ...


Old boss of mine told me almost those exact words 19 years ago.


Now it's a bunch of guys leaning on a broom for half the day because it's near impossible to fire them

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Lets not forget about the payoff the business agents get from non union contractors to look the other way when they are on union jobs


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> How much pension do they get? What union is this?


The BAC

It’s been a while since I asked them what their pension is so I’m not sure 


David


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Windycity said:


> The BAC
> 
> It’s been a while since I asked them what their pension is so I’m not sure
> 
> ...


I don't think the carpenters union give a pension.


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## Fishindude (Aug 15, 2017)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> I don't think the carpenters union give a pension.


They do around here.
But like many pensions, had you invested that same amount of money yourself over same time frame you could likely have made out much better.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> I don't think the carpenters union give a pension.


What kind of retirement do they offer?

I’ve never heard of a trade union that doesn’t offer some sort of pension

If I remember correctly the last bricklayer I asked was getting about 2200 a month for his pension on top of his Social Security


David


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## JoeStanton (Sep 24, 2008)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> I don't think the carpenters union give a pension.


Here in MA it's typically 22 years and they get 50% or so of their pay until they die. I have about 12 friends in the union in Boston and it quite handsome when you get out. It's to the point their fathers are getting in over their 50's just to get a partial pension. If it wasn't all government money I could care less.

My brother and his father in law are in the Miami local also a big fat pension. Those guys actually get above scale if you are better at what you do. Last time I checked my brother was close to 20% over scale. His FIL just retired so I will pick his brain when I am down next. I thought you were union, you guys have no retirement?


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Windycity said:


> What kind of retirement do they offer?
> 
> I’ve never heard of a trade union that doesn’t offer some sort of pension
> 
> ...


We have a retirement fund. Also a 401K. It's not mush tho.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

They can keep their political pensions

Mike


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## GCTony (Oct 26, 2012)

I don't know if there's any truth to this but was told by an electrician he left the union because he could make a lot more money over the course of a year working non-union, health insurance, 401K. Evidently the union dictates a person's pay or worth but non union, your pay is determined by supply and demand and what you are willing to invest in yourself.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

GCTony said:


> I don't know if there's any truth to this but was told by an electrician he left the union because he could make a lot more money over the course of a year working non-union, health insurance, 401K. Evidently the union dictates a person's pay or worth but non union, your pay is determined by supply and demand and what you are willing to invest in yourself.


I’m sure it happens occasionally especially for smaller gigs but I don’t know of a single non union company that pays more than union companies do 

For example Union bricklayers around here make $46 an hour On the check plus they also get full health insurance and money going towards their pension. I think total compensation is around $87 an hour 

Nonunion bricklayers probably make around 40 at most and may or may not have health insurance. But the average pay is more like mid $30s for experienced guys 

On a smaller outfit the lead guy might make union wages but probably is not compensated the same in benefits

Most guys that choose to go nonunion like The fact that nonunion companies are a little more laid-back and not so performance/production driven. From start to finish it is nonstop production all day 

It’s funny hearing everybody bash how lazy union guys are however my experience is that union jobs are a ball busters all day because They have to meet their production numbers due to the high cost


David


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Windycity said:


> I’m sure it happens occasionally especially for smaller gigs but I don’t know of a single non union company that pays more than union companies do
> 
> For example Union bricklayers around here make $46 an hour On the check plus they also get full health insurance and money going towards their pension. I think total compensation is around $87 an hour
> 
> ...


Next time I will take a picture of the union power company guys hanging out at the bagel shop for 815 to 1030 and again at 1230 to 200

Or the DOT guys with their 2 1/2 hr lunch and then waiting in their cars in line at the gate of their shop at 330-340 to leave at 400.

Or the place where my daughter worked at a trade show in NY that had to pay an electrician 4 hrs at $125hr to plug 1 extension cord in, and another 4 hrs to unplug it at the end of the show


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

rrk said:


> Next time I will take a picture of the union power company guys hanging out at the bagel shop for 815 to 1030 and again at 1230 to 200
> 
> Or the DOT guys with their 2 1/2 hr lunch and then waiting in their cars in line at the gate of their shop at 330-340 to leave at 400.
> 
> Or the place where my daughter worked at a trade show in NY that had to pay an electrician 4 hrs at $125hr to plug 1 extension cord in, and another 4 hrs to unplug it at the end of the show


You can take all the pictures you want of guys sitting around, I wasn’t referring to the power company or government type trades I was referring to construction unions. 

Yes the power company and DOT are pretty sweet gigs however I’m talking about construction trades that work in building construction

The big convention centers downtown Chicago also have some gravy union gigs as well (electricians and carpenters) but those are far and few in between. 

I know that McCormick Place in Chicago has been under pressure lately due to a lot of tradeshows going to other cities that don’t require the high cost of setting up shows because of the union bs 

I also know for a fact that when I work on a union bricklayers jobsite I am going to be busting my ass all day to hit my count, how do I know? Because I’ve been there and I’ve worked for several different companies 


David


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Windycity said:


> I wasn’t referring to the power company or government type trades I was referring to construction unions.
> 
> David


Fine, but that is not what you said

This is what you said
"It’s funny hearing everybody bash how lazy union guys are however my experience is that union jobs are a ball busters all day because They have to meet their production numbers due to the high cost"


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## camacho427 (Mar 22, 2021)

I would agree that unions have outlived their usefulness. They were created for a purpose but that has long been fulfilled IMO.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

camacho427 said:


> I would agree that unions have outlived their usefulness. They were created for a purpose but that has long been fulfilled IMO.


I live on a union island and you can't even bid on any big job without being union.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

camacho427 said:


> I would agree that unions have outlived their usefulness. They were created for a purpose but that has long been fulfilled IMO.


Yeah, because employers these days are an altruistic bunch.


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