# Certainteed Horizon Shingles..



## Guest (May 12, 2004)

Ah well, "once more into the fray." At 68 years old yet and thanks to Certainteed for the opportunity to raise the the B/P. My roof looks as if it has been strafed by a ME-109. Its was new in 1991 and put on by a reputable contractor who builds houses in the area. Many homeowners in our enclave have Horizon shingles and all are in need of replacement. One owner got a new roof from Cert. but it was a marathon of endless calling and complaining. He also had to sign a non-disclosure. So I await the packet from Cert but I'm not optimistic as to outcome after reading these threads.
Failure to honor warranties is a disgrace and is the albatross of American business. The stench must be awful. One candid person agreed with the statement that, "warranties are merely a marketing device."


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Certianteed is having quite the problem with their "shangles" (Horizons aren't technically shingles). Rumor has it of a class action law suit. 

Warranties ARE meerly a marketing device. No asphalt roof lasts past 20 years. Well technically they "will" last but won't look pretty. This is how the manufacturers know they can give 50 year warranties. The average asphalt roof lasts 15 years, and the average asphalt/fiberglass roof lasts 17.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2004)

windchill said:


> Ah well, "once more into the fray." At 68 years old yet and thanks to Certainteed for the opportunity to raise the the B/P. My roof looks as if it has been strafed by a ME-109. Its was new in 1991 and put on by a reputable contractor who builds houses in the area. Many homeowners in our enclave have Horizon shingles and all are in need of replacement. One owner got a new roof from Cert. but it was a marathon of endless calling and complaining. He also had to sign a non-disclosure. So I await the packet from Cert but I'm not optimistic as to outcome after reading these threads.
> Failure to honor warranties is a disgrace and is the albatross of American business. The stench must be awful. One candid person agreed with the statement that, "warranties are merely a marketing device."



The French have no concept of loyalty or support. Can you expect more from a French-owned company?


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

Moving from *Remodeling Picture Post* forum to *Roofing* forum...

thx


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

What area are you in? I've done several defective Horizon shangle roofs and have three contracts waiting signatures at the moment. You will have to contact a lumber yard that stocks Certainteed products and get a form to fill out for Certainteed. At a minumal Certainteed will buy the new shingle more than likely Landmark 30's and pay some for age. Your roof is half it's age they should split the bill with you.

Grumpy, I've been on asphalt roofs that were over 20 years old and had to tell the homeowner they can wait a couple more years for replacement. Just did a townhome built in 84 with the metric shingles and only the very sunny sides were starting to show age. I could see an Owen Corning ashpalt shingle last 15 years but not the Sealdon 25's.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Douger based on reports I have read and my personal experience, roofs in the Chicago metro area don't usually last 20 years. This is an average...

My father put 20 year shingles on a front porch of our house that he built. Oh he nursed those shingles well past 20 years. He used the silver coatings on shingles. After 15 years he coated the roof every 3 years. It looked god-awful.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Grumpy, I would say Chicago and Minneapolis/St. Paul have somewhat similar seasons with your area having perhaps slightly warmer summers and my area cooler winters. There have been some shingles over the years though that can last a good while.

You must remember that many shingle manufactures 20 years ago made shingles with a 15 year warranty and not the 20-25 year warranty you see every shingle manufacturer with now.

My father said he's installed many roofs with a 15 year warranty over the years, will they last 20 years? Doubt it!


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

I really think that the fact of the matter is manufacturer warranties are a marketing trick.

Heck I know our warranty is a marketing trick, to a point. We WILL honor our warranty for the stated period of time. We also give a long term warranty. When I say long term I mean we double the local average on repalcements. 10 years labor on a roof replacement. We do this because we know if we do the work right, it should last ten years. I've been on many roofs that were brand new where the home owners forgot who did the roof so didn't know who to contact for the warranty. I've answered the phone for an ESTIMATE we did years ago but never landed the sale and they thought we were the roofers because they managed to dig up our estimate and they needed a repair. Houses are sold and paperwork lost. There are many variables that cause warranties to be forgotten.


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## LNSTRIC (Nov 13, 2006)

Grumpy said:


> Certianteed is having quite the problem with their "shangles" (Horizons aren't technically shingles). Rumor has it of a class action law suit.
> 
> Warranties ARE meerly a marketing device. No asphalt roof lasts past 20 years. Well technically they "will" last but won't look pretty. This is how the manufacturers know they can give 50 year warranties. The average asphalt roof lasts 15 years, and the average asphalt/fiberglass roof lasts 17.


I HAVE READ MANY OF THE COMPLAINTS RE CERTIANTEED HORIZON
SHINGLES. SOME OF THE COMENTS REFERED TO CLASS ACTION SUITS. HAS THERE BEEN ANYMORE ACTIVITY IN THAT DIRECTION? I AM AN IOWAN WITH A HORIZON PROBLEM. I'M AWAITING THE CONTRACTOR TO REMOVE SOME SHINGLES TO SEND TO CERTAINTEED. WOULD APPRECIATE HEARING FROM YOU.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

I have also done a few. The shingles are just plain garbage. On the certainteed website, you can print the pages for the claim and send the shingles in. They do pay.

I have seen shingles last many years, but I have to agree they don't look as nice after even 7 years, let alone 20. Some winters and/or summers can be bad enough to take 5 years off the shingles. 

Most of the horizon roofs around I have seen have been replaced from the hail storms. Sadly, some are being replaced by Timberlines.


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

Kinda funny how people bash GAF - And prefer Certainteed products. I used Certainteed for about 3 years their claims process is terrible takes them a year or better sometimes to settle a claim. They have fought and are still fighting numerous class action lawsuits wheras Gaf has had only one to my knowladge and fessed up right away and paid the piper.

I do think Certainteed has some good products but think they need to stand behind their warranties a little better after all it is their product.


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

Try to Google Lawsuits Shingles this is what i tell my homeowners if they want to use certainteed products.


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## RidgeWalker (Nov 1, 2006)

Many roofs don't last as long as they should becuase of ventilation problems.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

minnesotaroofin said:


> Kinda funny how people bash GAF - And prefer Certainteed products.


It's easy, they are a better shingle. Landmarks are better than Timberlines. Hard to argue that. As for 3 tabs, GAF has had the worst line until the certainteed XT's. They are almost as bad.


Give it time. They will have their hands full with claims on the timberlines. We have done some already.

Cetainteed makes their share of bad shingles. I'll agree to that. On the other hand, I haven't seen a GAF shingle that is really worth the money.


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

i do not see how you can say landmarks are better - maybee same quality - if you compared the 2 - 30 year products you would find gaf shingles are actually thicker and have more of a fiberglass to asphalt mixture than landmarks.

As far as 3 - tabs go the 25 year sealdon was the worst other than a globe 3 - tab. both these would be lucky to go 15 years. I have been using 3-tab sovereigns for 18 years. Except for a few batches in the 90's all are still performing well. i think i have had 2 or 3 callback warranty claims with GAF. have easily been on a dozen or more certainteed defects and i use GAF 90% of the time.

If you strictly use landmarks that is good it is a good shingle but if you did have a problem good luck working it out with certainteed there warranty protection sucks. they put you off for years. i sent in a claim for a homeowner on the horizon shingles over a year ago took them six months to come back and offer $350.00 now they are up to $650.00 i think if i push for another year or so i may get $750.00 on a 9 year old roof.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

More fiberglass doesn't mean bull. I have compared the shingles as I use both. The Landmarks are still thicker. Just setting the shingle, you can notice that.
As for 3 tab GAF's they do not stay on unless there is no wind whatsoever. Lightest shingle made, and they don't last 20 years.

Have had claims with both shingle manufacturers. Both were slow, but Certainteed paid the full bill a few times. GAF hasn't yet. I think the warranties on any of them is not good past 5 years. All of them are getting cheaper made as time goes on. Used Elk today and they seem real strong, but a little dry. I'm not quite sure of them yet. Haven't recommended Timberlines to anyone though. The ones we do, pick them because of the color combinations they have. 

Maybe that's their problem is too much fiberglass, same as the horizons. They are actually comparable with the timberline just being a two part shingle and the horizon being one.


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/repair/msg0821243518283.html?50 here is what some other people think of the customer service at CT


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Yes, those are horizons. You can't discount a whole company for one line of shingles. Anyhow, good post.

As for GAF, we did a job last fall where the timberlines were 4 years old and cracked from top to bottom. It was a 5-plex with 5 different owners. This claim took 10 months and each owner had to front $1000 of their own money to get it redone. We had to use Timberlines again, and I'm curious to see what the shingles look like in the future, For their sake, I hope it's better. I have seen this more than once.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Finding out both the Horizon and "New" Horizions shangles both have quality issues. It's been known for a while that the NH's have had issues blowing off but now seeing other defects on the shingles within 10 years of install.

Tore off some junky Timberline 25's lately. 

Would it be safe to say most Timberlines had a 25 year warranty up until 2-3 years ago? Recall most laminate manufacturers jumping there 25 year warranties to 30 years. Wonder how many actually made the product to last longer? 

Agree, an advertisement ploy.

Certainteed although French owned isn't that bad of a company. I know several people that live in and around the Shakopee plant who have worked there many years.

Buying local to me is worth paying more for a better product. I buy my shingles from a small single owned lumber yard. All the felt is Roofers Sellect and the ice and water is Winterguard. 95% of the shingles ordred are Landmarks, the other 5% would be Landmark Plus, Premiums, and TL's.

Certainteeds Master Installer program is one of the best in the business. Certainteed has spent millions of dollars making products better of the years.

A year ago the Shakopee plant added a second plastic strip on the back side the Landmarks to prevent sticking, cost was a million dollars.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

a million dollars??? for a strip of plastic? is that here-say?

I know when Certainteed made the 25 to 30 year warranty switch, the shingles didn't change. We sold many certainteed 30 year roofs using Landmark 25's that were warrantied to 30 years. Now they are just simply called Landmark.

The old horizons were a tad thicker, but they were a 3 tab shangle.


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

I have yet to see a timberline roof fail under warranty - been talking to my suppliers -- United Supply corp -- ABC -- Roof Depot --- And Western Roofing. They have seen every manufacturers shingle fail the most common one though is certainteeds. Horizon line and Globe 20 year organic top two. GAF sovereign in the mid to late 90,s as well as seldon both had mixture problems not to mention O.C. too.

The most recent problem was the Certainteed Landmarks this spring Certainteed bought back from every supplier cause shingles were sticking together. They claimed that such a high demand was made they were stacking them to quickly before they had a chance to cool down. My opinion is that they started to follow GAF and put them in plastic then tried to change the sealing strip and made a mistake by not putting a film down.

Maybee you should talk to a non bias supplier who sells all brands ask who has the most problems.

I have yet to have a Landmark job fail under warranty either - I was however plenty peed when 3 different suppliers sent out shingles stuck together on one job that should have been a day job turned into a week. 

And just to be fair had a problem with the ridge cap falling apart from GAF last month. Had to hand seal the profile tab on every piece for 3 jobs.

Oh GAF - O.C. - Certainteed all have local plants here in MN. As i understand they all get their materials from the same asphalt companies locally.

I guess my main problem with Certainteed and O.C. is they do not cater to me enough. And i mean manufacturer reps not supplier reps. Certainteed as i here has one for the 5 state area. O.C. has One for the state of MN. GAF has 2 In the State of MN.

I could Probably get my GAF Rep to come to every sales call i make to promote GAF. And i cannot even compete production wise with the big boys on the block.


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

Oh i forgot to mention the Laminated shingle cracking problem is the O.C. Oakridge Pros - Not the Timberlines are you guys sure they were Timberlines? The pretty colors you have been mentioning got me thinking the Timberlines have the least amount of color choices looking at my samples Landmark has a color to match all Timberlines then some. O.C. has them both beat. in colors as well as in variations.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

I completely understand your view. Especially since you have a sales view. It has always been easier to sell timberline because everyone knows the name "timberline".
GAF also has a few more colors. The ridge always fall apart. They are a bear to work with. The tar is on one side and it doesn't bend right, but they are nice and big and worth the money you pay for them. OC has the best ridge IMO.
The shingles sticking together was a problem for a few weeks, and I told them they would have that problem at the meeting when they switched. They do have a tighter bag than GAF which makes them not stick together in hot weather.

And yes, they are timberlines that crack. GAF is specifically known for it for a long time. Our big supplier is United Products and they carry every brand. The metro stations do go through alot of timberlines. Most companies there are not owner operators. Further out you get more owner operated companies and most shingles are Landmark and Elk.

I almost had to switch to GAF awhile ago because of a few things I don't like about Landmark. Tried a few jobs with Timberline and went back. It's just a better shingle. You can notice this when laying them. 

Like I said, from a sales point of view, it can be different.


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## Guest (May 29, 2007)

*CertainTeed Sealdon*

Is there a class action on the CertainTeed Sealdon shingles? We are in the process of buying a home and the whole neighborhood in Woodbury MN was built with CertainTeed's Sealdon shingle. We have tons of curling now and it is 9 yrs old on the proposed house. Lots in the neighborhood do too. Is praying my only outlet than sitting on the phone for hours?:sad:


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Get a contractor to work for you. This is the easiest way to get them replaced.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Warranty issue, possibly.

Covered?

Maybe?

Ventilation usually is not done correctly and that is the escape clause for most shingle manufacturers warranties, because they know it in advance and do not do much if anything to enforce it before handing out worthless paper warranty paperwork.

Ed


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

The only class action law suit against Certainteed is for the Horizon shangles but the Sealdons fail by 15 years on the South and West sides. The North sides can stay looking good for up to 25 years. The sun and the rain make the Sealdons curl.

Last jobs I did with the Sealdons Certainteed prorated the shingles only and gave an extra $3 per square with the purchase of Landmarks. On most homes it comes out to $400-800 with a total bill of $4-8K. Only during the 5 year sure start warranty does Certainteed pay towards labor costs.

Last jobs I did with the Horizons Certainteed was still paying for Landmarks but wouldn't pay towards any labor or any other roofing materials although they make everything else needed but the valley metal and other flashing.

Been seeing cracking and lots of blow offs with the New Horizons recently. Some of these roofs were done up to 10 years ago and some are showing age already. The bid Minnesota wind storm a few Sundays back caused a lot of wind damage. Got calls on roofs from Northfield to Woodbury.


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## RooferJim (Mar 6, 2006)

Sealdons are an organic shingle. there is no such thing as a good organic shingle there mat is made from recycled news paper and can absorb water. thats why IKO's are notorious for failing early. Certainteed I think stoped making organic shingles .

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

RooferJim said:


> Sealdons are an organic shingle. there is no such thing as a good organic shingle there mat is made from recycled news paper and can absorb water. thats why IKO's are notorious for failing early. Certainteed I think stoped making organic shingles .
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com



Correct, Certainteed finally stopped producing the Sealdon 25's a couple years ago.


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## RooferJim (Mar 6, 2006)

Now you know why. Do yourself and your custumers a big favor and start using GAF roofing. Its an American company for an added bonus.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Good idea Jim. Then we can replace them sooner. There is a company near us that uses only GAF products. They get them shipped directly to their shop and is all they use. We have asked why they don't try other brands? Their direct answer was "if we use these then we can replace them again in 15 years or less....We are running a business here".......

Timberlines are OK at best, but they still crack too easy. Now with the new Landmark plant and colors, there is no reason to use GAF anymore.

Yes, Certainteed had some problems in the past, but are slowly discontinuing their worst products. GAF is still selling them at Home rip-off.


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## RooferJim (Mar 6, 2006)

Thats a joke MJW. You are showing a lack of roofing knowledge. GAF has not produced a 15 year warrany organic shingle in years. the cracking you refer to was a universal problem they all had when fiberglass mat first started . GAF has a better warranty than any of them and they are very good at standing behind it. I have also seen Certainteed make good on warranty claims as well . Of course if your a roofing contractor you have more weight to have a warranty resolved than a general contractor or a home owner does.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

RooferJim said:


> Thats a joke MJW. You are showing a lack of roofing knowledge. GAF has not produced a 15 year warrany organic shingle in years. the cracking you refer to was a universal problem they all had when fiberglass mat first started . GAF has a better warranty than any of them and they are very good at standing behind it. I have also seen Certainteed make good on warranty claims as well . Of course if your a roofing contractor you have more weight to have a warranty resolved than a general contractor or a home owner does.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


I'm not trying to start anything here, but............ There isn't any truth to this post.
For the 15 year thing, that is how long they last, not a warranty.

There is no proof saying any warranty is better than another.

Roofing Contractor or general Contractor......there isn't a difference when it comes to a warranty claim. I have been a Roofer for 12 years and my dad for over 30, so I would consider us Roofers. I just expanded to include other parts of the business. It is alot easier making a weather tight house when you can do the framing, siding, roofing, and windows without any subs. No one is passing the buck to the next sub.

The truth is that I have seen many more GAF's fail than any other brand.
I do remember you saying that the GAF's are different in the south. This may be and I can't comment on that.

I may have to put a little effort in with pictures and/or video to prove my point. I will if I have to.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

MJW said:


> Good idea Jim. Then we can replace them sooner. There is a company near us that uses only GAF products. They get them shipped directly to their shop and is all they use. We have asked why they don't try other brands? Their direct answer was "if we use these then we can replace them again in 15 years or less....We are running a business here".......
> 
> Timberlines are OK at best, but they still crack too easy. Now with the new Landmark plant and colors, there is no reason to use GAF anymore.
> 
> Yes, Certainteed had some problems in the past, but are slowly discontinuing their worst products. GAF is still selling them at Home rip-off.



I agree 100% with this post. On the small handfull of jobs I've put down with Timerblines in the past 10 years there have been cracking issues. On a 6 year old 55sq 12/12 I roofed as new construction for a friend with Timerblines the hail damage pails in comparison to the cracking and I don't know what to call areas were the shingles are falling apart? There is plenty of good ventilation at work on the home so that is not to blame. The shingles have sealed down very well, one good thing.

What I do know as a roofing contractor/installer is that the Landmark shingles give me the least amount of problems, opening the packages, pulling apart the shingles, nailing them down, never seeing fiberglass slivers, and never having to go back to see the product only when hail comes through. They are very very rare to blow off especially with the tar on the bottom side.

Isn't a Certainteed shingle a "professional shingle" which is why Certainteed says there not in the big box stores because most professionals don't buy there materials from big box stores?

My yard only stocks Certainteed Landmarks and XT30's all other shingles have to be orderd and brought in which takes a whopping half day for Certainteeds and haven't gotten Timberlines from them in 4 years which took a day to get. My yard also gets me roofs every year from customers that inquire about quality roofers. 

I'd rather have a relation with the owner of a yard and all the salesmen and yard people to know each other on a first name or nick name basis rather than a big box store who's owner you'll never meet, who's general manager you may never meet and who's manager you may meet.


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