# ground as neutral



## aWorkaHolic (Oct 1, 2007)

Celtic, whats your actual profession asides from pie tasting? This is just a rudimentary question.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

aWorkaHolic said:


> Celtic, whats your actual profession asides from pie tasting? This is just a rudimentary question.


I played a major (but not starring) role in the birth of 2 babies. :thumbup:


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

Celtic said:


> Do you know _*WHY?
> 
> *_Simply because "that's what I was told" or "the master did it that way" or " that's the way I've always done it" ...doesn't mean a dam thing.


Well no one has been able to make a good explanation for that one....that i've talked to atleast. So if you want to enlighten me I would be grateful.

I understand that in the main panel the neutral and ground are basically the same(they're bonded how could they not be?). 

But then once they leave the panel their purpose changes. The neutral completes the circuit as a return. The ground is for safety. Current goes to ground rather than the metal(or anything else that would conduct electricity) or any person.

What I dont understand is how if current does get to the ground then the breaker trips, but a neutral carries current at times and this doesnt trip a breaker. I dont understand taht because once it gets back to the main panel it arrives to the same bar as the grounds do.

As far as what would happen if the ground and neutral were put together outside the panel...I have no idea...never tried it. That was my original question. What would happen?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

gravtyklz said:


> As far as what would happen if the ground and neutral were put together outside the panel...I have no idea...never tried it. That was my original question. What would happen?


PM me with your email address.

I have a MS powerpoint presentation of that very topic.
If you don't have a Powerpoint viewer, let me know in the PM, I'll send that along as well.
It's yours for free...just by asking.


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

Celtic said:


> PM me with your email address.
> 
> I have a MS powerpoint presentation of that very topic.
> If you don't have a Powerpoint viewer, let me know in the PM, I'll send that along as well.
> It's yours for free...just by asking.


It is sent. So what inclined you to make a power point presentation on this?


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Celtic, is there any way you can (or would) make that presentation available for us to use/view? :thumbsup:
Is it yours, or did you borrow it?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Celtic, is there any way you can (or would) make that presentation available for us to use/view? :thumbsup:
> Is it yours, or did you borrow it?



I've been looking for some place to host a ppt file...haven't found one yet.

The presentation is NOT mine...but I have permission from the author to distribute it.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

How big is the file?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

gravtyklz said:


> So what inclined you to make a power point presentation on this?


I didn't make it.

Grounding and bonding is one of the least understood concepts in the electrical field.

I found this thing...rather, someone emailed it me, just as I have to you....I asked the author if i could send it to people that wanted it...he said "sure". 


So let it be said, so let it be done...so sayeth the sooth sayer, so sayeth the naive. 
Get the flock outta here!
:laughing:
..or something like that from Mr. Mel Brooks


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> How big is the file?


Tiny...
Grounding Presentation.ppt

File Size:
738 kb


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Everyone hates fishing wire, but sometimes it's the only way. Do this;

Remove the single gang box and cut the opening to the size of a two gang box, reach in there to feel around for the staple that's holding the switch leg cable. Get your ***** in there and pull the staple(can be difficult but don't worry about damaging the wire)

Now remove the can portion of the can light where the switch leg first lands and again remove the staple.

Now tie a 14/3 to the old switch leg at the switch box, take lots of time making the head and considering what the cables will have to do when you pull them in. With some patience and some finnesse you shouldn't have a problem getting the new cable in (just like fishing), and this normally takes two people.

Now remove the can where the second switch leg needs to land, and get a 14/2 over to it, this all depends on layout. If your lucky the joists are running in the right direction. If not then drill as far as you can from direction then the same from the other direction using a 5 foot long flexible drill bit. After that it's just a matter of fishing, or if there are still joists in the way you will need to cut a rectangular hole in the sheetrock so you can get your drill bit in and drill further.

Of course a "has to get done" attitude is required, even if there are things someone "hates" to do, they still have to get done. And i honestly wish I could e-smack you for thinking of using the ground as a conductor.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Fishing is a skill...an art.

Some have the "touch" some are butchers :laughing:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Sparky Joe said:


> And i honestly wish I could *e-smack* you for thinking of using the ground as a conductor.


LMAO.


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## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

Sparky Joe said:


> Everyone hates fishing wire, but sometimes it's the only way. Do this;
> 
> Remove the single gang box and cut the opening to the size of a two gang box, reach in there to feel around for the staple that's holding the switch leg cable. Get your ***** in there and pull the staple(can be difficult but don't worry about damaging the wire)
> 
> ...


Hmm, giving away too many trade secrets. Why not just do the job for the guy? Geez


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Or he could just come in with a bulldozer and start from scratch.

I've often thought excavator would be a nice side career, I mean the two are alomost identical, and fishing wire would be a thing of the past :thumbup:


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

It's not the best solution but if done right the worst you end up with is 6 ungrounded fixtures.

I wouldn't do it.

A MUCH better solution is to simply cut and patch. We do it almost every single day. It's DRYWALL for God's sake. It it designed to be easily cut and patched. You will be in and out in an hour, TOPS.

They don't want to do it but....too bad. Don't let THEM tell you how to do your job.

You don't need to cut HUGE holes. Just cut small notches and fish around the plates/ blocking and under the joists. To keep code compliant, notch the joist slightly (if allowed) and nail plate it or slip the nail plate or small piece of 3/8 channel into the patching compound.

I have ton TONS of retro work and it's really easier than you are thinking. 

Next time put everything in writing.

Also....you need thick skin to ask questions in places like this. There are an awful lot of people that think they know everything.




> Now tie a 14/3 to the old switch leg at the switch box, take lots of time making the head and considering what the cables will have to do when you pull them in. With some patience and some finnesse you shouldn't have a problem getting the new cable in (just like fishing), and this normally takes two people


A good reason NOT to put a crapload of staples on your romex. It's also a good idea to run 3 wire swithlegs at least to the first can/JB. It makes my day when I find a spare wire


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## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

Sparky Joe said:


> Or he could just come in with a bulldozer and start from scratch.
> 
> I've often thought excavator would be a nice side career, I mean the two are alomost identical, and fishing wire would be a thing of the past :thumbup:


See you need to take what you read in a different lite. Just cause he says "excavation and electrical" doesnt have to be taken at face value. It might translate to have shovel and kleins, will work for food.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

> what negative side effects would I see if I used the ground as a neutral for these lights and then used the white wire as a second switch leg?


Well, the worst thing that can happen is death.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> Also....you need thick skin to ask questions in places like this. There are an awful lot of people that think they know everything.


An electrician doesn't need to know "everything" to know the answer to his original question. 

year one, day one, hour one.

Dunno if anyone's said it yet, because I started skimming after the first 20 replies, but the reason is.......

The grounding conductor shouldn't be normally (read: always) energized and it would be if you used it as nuetral.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

gravtyklz said:


> I've seen a master electrician do what I asked about


So have I and he refused to fix it, saying it was only a switch leg. So I took him to court, the judge sided with the electrician, siting that's the way it was done before 3 prong outlets. This was a 3way light system on 14-2. So I paid the first guy, then, I paid the next sparky to run 14-3.


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> What's your real name because I can't wait to hear about you on the news for killing someone, then I'll be right there at your trial with this post to make sure they never let your dumbas$ out of prison.


 
Don't have a stroke little b!tch. I will PM you my name, email, address any any other info you want .

You don't call someone out on a message board like that. It's not cool.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Settle down guys...fights are 3 doors down on the left.


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

220/221 said:


> Don't have a stroke little b!tch. I will PM you my name, email, address any any other info you want .
> 
> You don't call someone out on a message board like that. It's not cool.


I'll agree with you on that one. It's common in debate and in any organized communication structure to go after the issues and not after the people.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

220/221 said:


> Age 55
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Give me a moment while I go through statements and make "interpretations" then you'll have the chance to back pedal to what you really meant....


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

Interpet this.


Calling someone out like that was not cool.


Posting a private message moves you to douchebag status.

You are just another internet tough guy trying to compensate for something.

You would be wise to open your mind before you open your mouth.


PS....I didn't catch your name???? Show some balls apprentice boy


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

"It's not the best solution, but if done right you end up with is 6 ungrounded fixtures"

Obviously my interpretation is you're condoning using the ground wire as a current carrying conductor, but then again it is a very complex statement and I'm most likely wrong.


"You don't need to cut HUGE holes. Just cut small notches and *fish around the plates/ blocking and under the joists*. To keep code compliant, notch the joist slightly (if allowed) and nail plate it or slip the nail plate or small piece of 3/8 channel into the patching compound."

I am interpreting you cutting notches in the sheetrock to get around a permanent wiring installation and then "floating" nail plates in sheetrock mud.
Code or not; I'm not familiar. Workmanlike; definetly not


"It makes my day when I find a spare wire "

I'll bet the home owner is most relieved on those days.


"Give him a link to this thread and we'll set him straight."

Give him your e-mail personally and we'll leave the "setting straight" to you and whatever code cycle you're still under


"I actually saw this before in some old army barrack building turned into apartments.. It looked like cloth covered SE cable with only 1 insulated conductor."

First time seeing knob-and-tube, and yet "I have ton TONS of retro work and it's really easier than you are thinking. "


"It would not be OK because you still have no ground.
It would be BETTER...but not OK."

Interpretation; it'd be better to use an insulated ground as a neutral than an uninsulated ground as a neutral


"Don't confuse the poor kid. You know what he meant.
One lesson at a time."

So would teaching code compared to not code also confuse the poor kid?


"Don't have a stroke little b!tch. You don't call someone out on a message board like that. It's not cool."

You are free to your iterpretations, if you think that was calling you out; well i interpret your misinformation as calling me out. As you stated above, people here take this "lectricity" stuff seriously and have a clue as to how it works.

As for calling names, I'm in construction moron and I interpret that as a 55 year old acting like a child because he didn't get his way. Where's mommy when you need her right?


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Joe Magnuson, aka "tough guy"

And that's 'union' apprentice to you, just so you know where the balls come from.

And what status do you gain by calling someone a *itch. Just curious since you have the scale in your back pocket.


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

Dude, you are just a punk who wasted 30 minutes copying bullsh!t to make yourself feel better.

Union means NOTHING to me. I have seen just as much bad as good in the union. The local president in AZ pulled a gun and tried to KILL the nation president in 1974...5 when I was apprenticing. Good times.


1. I didn't condone using the gnd as a neutral.

2. You cut the drywall to get around the stud Einstein. Common practice.

3. I don't get it

4. I don't get this one either.

5. Read junior. It was NOT KT

6. Yes if you use it as a neutral and NOT a ground. It aint right but it is better. I am not condoning it, just making a comparison.

7. It was HUMOR douchebag. The guy I was talking to knew it.

You interpet my "misinformation" as calling you out? You are out of ammo soldier.

Stay in school. You got a LOT to learn.



Edited to add:

Dude, don't be so angry. Life is too short.


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## idoelectric (Jun 24, 2007)

I'm somewhat amazed and a little appalled that this young man OP is actually doing electrical work that he is apparrently not qualified for and is getting paid for it. IMO he is getting in over your head with the mere thought of such dangerous wiring. He should work under licensed qualified electricians and go to classes before attempting anymore electrical work.

Anyone qualified would already had this handled and corrected properly. Remove the sheetrock and install the proper wiring and the GC will worry about patching ceiling. You're working with electricity, respect it. 6 recess lights should have been split with two switches to begin with. This is a common method in my area and inspectors are requiring three or more recess lights split up. The lack of knowledge in the electrical field may get him and/or others hurt and he should step away from trying it on his own for awhile till he learns more.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Quick quiz and please don't give me any lectures, I spend about an hour a day reviewing grounding articles and posts , I know the arguements, and the dangers. 

Question 1: Anybody here remember 3 wire ranges and dryers?

Question 2: How many millions of fellow citizens lost their lives due to the 
above named practice?

Now, gravtykiz, read the first page about ripping out your installation, fixing it, and then charge the Gen. Cont. for the repair job. Its his screw up, but you are responsible to meet code, so do it and charge the repair to him.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Next quiz

Question: If you touch the uninsulated grounded conductor (you know, the one with all the neutral current going thru it back to the utility transformer) on a service drop with your bare hand will you instantly vaporize? :whistling


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## idoelectric (Jun 24, 2007)

That would depend. I would also like to wonder how hot that uninsulated grounded conductor would get after prolonged periods of time (you know, the one with all the neutral current going thru it stuff)?


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Mac Mike is not taking a stand but seems to be leaning to using grounds as neutrals as well, but because he spends an hour a day learning what's right it makes it okay.
Thanks Mike for rockin the boat, but for talks sake take a stand.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

I vote to now pull this thread. Thanks to a few members it has sunk to "Stupid" status. 
And I mean delete it, not just lock it. This is embarrassing. :furious:

Also, posting someone's PM and real name is a despicable tactic. I personally think there should be action taken.


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

idoelectric said:


> I'm somewhat amazed and a little appalled that this young man OP is actually doing electrical work that he is apparrently not qualified for and is getting paid for it. IMO he is getting in over your head with the mere thought of such dangerous wiring. He should work under licensed qualified electricians and go to classes before attempting anymore electrical work.
> 
> ...


Again this is another instance where someone has read too far into it. You've assumed more than you should about the structure of the company I work for. Its not the best, and thats why I asked. There is a master electrician here that I work under and he didnt like the idea even though he too had seen it done before plenty of times. BUT he could not explain the issue in detail like I wanted. So I asked here.




idoelectric said:


> 6 recess lights should have been split with two switches to begin with. This is a common method in my area and inspectors are requiring three or more recess lights split up. The lack of knowledge in the electrical field may get him and/or others hurt and he should step away from trying it on his own for awhile till he learns more.


Well I'm certainly missing something here then. I've never heard any cons or an inspector complain about 6 recess lights being on one switch. Isnt the issue about overloading a circuit? Think about stores you go into with recessed lighting, think they flip 200 switches so they dont over do 3 to a switch?

I don't do shotty work. Everything ive done so far in my career has been legal. My original question in the first post was just that...a question. And after looking at the many articles be very experienced electricians who train people, the harm of the idea isnt as high as alot of you make it seem. 

But what code says is what code says, and even if everyone here said that would have been an okay thing to do I wouldnt have done it because the Master Electrician said no. 

What about general ethics classes? Seems like that shoudl be taught a lot more. Some people on here have gone completely mad over a question, but as I said before, attack issues not people you'll get a lot farther.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

gravtyklz said:


> So you're saying it would be okay if the grounding conductor was insulated? (example: green insulated wire)


No Grav, it still would be just as bad. There is no such such thing here as a little bit wrong or a lot wrong. It is just wrong. A EGC carrying neutral current, bare or insulated, is waiting to bite the next person who works on the circuit and isn't aware of what you have done. He can die by not expecting to find current in that ground wire. And the fixtures would no longer be bonded back to the service to clear ground faults. Some time in your career you will become experienced with fishing wires. Sparky Joe has laid out how to do it. You might as well look at it as a challenge to get that new cable to where you need it. Do what it takes to do the job right and code compliant.


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

First of all, don't lock or delete the thread. This is America...right? Aren't we allow to have open discussion? If you don't like it don't fvcking read it.

Yeah, he was a jackass to post a PM but I don't give a sh!t. We are mostly blue collar working men here and should be able to deal this kind of stuff. It's a message board...a VERY trivial thing when put into perspective. Some of you take this sh!t WAY too seriously.




> There is no such such thing here as a little bit wrong or a lot wrong.


Sure there is. There are always varying degrees of right and wrong.


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## bauler (Nov 10, 2006)

gravtyklz what you are asking is a elementry electrical question. Go to Mike Holt's website and buy his beginning electrical book. You will then understand why using the "ground" as a "nuetral" would be so dangerous. There are other issues to consider, just because it works doesn't mean its done right. Hate to see you kill someone.:sad:


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

> And after looking at the many articles be very experienced electricians who train people, the harm of the idea isnt as high as alot of you make it seem.


Dude you're officially a dumb a**. Please don't return to that jobsite. Just call in sick while your looking for a school to teach you not only electrical but right from wrong.

Let me ask you something, If you run a red light and kill someone, should it matter if the light had been red for a little while or if you just missed the yellow?

You have NO business doing anything electrical


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

Celtic said:


> I saw one post(#*36*) calling for some Rube Goldberg concepts....where are all the others..barring the OPs?


I missed this earlier.

Fishing around blocking/studs is Rube Goldberg? To some people plastic boxes and wire nuts are Rube Goldberg. To some people NM is Rube Goldberg. There is nothing wrong with installations like this. It's 100 percent code compliant. Don't EVEN try and tell me you have never notched and plated a wire in a remodel.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said it had to be justified. Depends on my mood. :thumbsup: :w00t:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

gravtyklz said:


> Thats an angle I didnt look at actually. I'll go ahead and agree with you now.
> 
> See this is why I asked. I didnt ask so I could be told that I didnt know what I already admited I didnt know.


Books are great learning tools...some find pictures a better teacher.
Think about it....did you read your first Playboy or look at the pictures :laughing:
I'm a picture kinda guy myself :thumbsup: 





gravtyklz said:


> Thanks a lot for the energy you put into finding the information you gave Celtic.


I got mad skills....spread the word....oh yea...I also like pie:thumbup:


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

220/221 said:


> What was this, an ........ invitation to a BBQ?


Boy, if you consider that an attack you're worse off than I thought.





220/221 said:


> You have one thick skull dude.


OK. What's your point?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

220/221 said:


> It's not the best solution but if done right the worst you end up with is 6 ungrounded fixtures.
> 
> I wouldn't do it.
> 
> ...


Actually, you said it was something you wouldn't do - never suggested he not do it...but rather that it was a viable option and even supplied a "worse case" scenario that is misleading.

I'm not the thought police - I don't know what you were thinking when you posted that. 
I only know it's bad for business.



I'm not about to get into an argument on the internet ...we all know what that is equivalent to.

You've stated your opinions
I've stated mine
Done


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> OK. What's your point?


 
You say that personal attacks are uncalled for then personally attack someone.

You use your own definition of personal attack to defend your position. It's OK to call someone a hack or a fool but not a b!tch or douchebag? Come on now.

This is like trying to reason with a woman when she has PMS.




> You've stated your opinions
> I've stated mine
> Done


 
But.....but....but...what about the thread. Wont somebody PLAESE think about the thread !
Today 04:09 PM


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

You know what, this is getting pathetic. I NEVER called you a hack. I did say you are making yourself look the fool, and I don't apologize for it. I will say sorry that your skin is so thin.
If you think these are "attacks" then report me and move on. 

I'm done with this thread and with you.


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> I'm done with this thread and with you.


 
Heh heh....you said that exact same thing before too.


Never say never dude.


Sound familiar?



> If you think these are "attacks" then report me and move on.


 
Not my style. The attacks aren't the issue. I have a problem with the hipocracy .


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

Go away for a day, and look what happens! 

gravtyklz, those recess cans are required to be connected to a egc. (equipment bonding conductor). By using the EGC as a neutral, you would eliminate this vital safety feature. A short to the can would not trip the breaker, energizing the can to 120v. Or, by using the bare as both neutral and EGC, you would have current on the recess housings.

Do you see the hazard?

Someone recommended Mike Holt's Grounding vs. Bonding book. Excellent. I got one when I took his course earlier this year, and both the book and class were helpful.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Someone recommended Mike Holt's Grounding vs. Bonding book. Excellent. I got one when I took his course earlier this year, and both the book and class were helpful.


John...here's the "internet" version....not quite as good as the book, but lots of pictures :thumbsup:

http://www.mikeholt.com/freegraphics.php?id=gvb

I'm kind of partial to 250.142:









As well as 250.6:


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

OH...BACK TO THE TOPIC?...SAY IT ISN'T SO. I was just making a bowl of popcorn waiting for the war to continue.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

Celtic said:


> John...here's the "internet" version....not quite as good as the book, but lots of pictures :thumbsup:
> 
> http://www.mikeholt.com/freegraphics.php?id=gvb


You've earned your pie for today! :thumbsup:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> You've earned your pie for today! :thumbsup:


Awesome!


I edited and added a few pics....can I get a glass of ice cold milk too? :thumbup:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

send_it_all said:


> OH...BACK TO THE TOPIC?...SAY IT ISN'T SO. I was just making a bowl of popcorn waiting for the war to continue.


we've evolved to pie :clap:


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Whoa, this thing got way out of hand.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

fridaymean said:


> Whoa, this thing got way out of hand.


Just a little ...I think we are all in agreement now...just took a little while to reach that point.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

I think this thread should be *preserved in amber!!*
First, I'm pretty certain that there's a kid somewhere in Va who'll *NEVER EVEN* think of using a ground to carry current.
Second it's chocked full of examples of how to/not to conduct ones self, and how to/ not to resolve differences in an adult manner.:thumbsup:
I give it five stars!!!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
But I'm pretty sure Md just stroked out somewhere along the line


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I also have the Mike Holt Grounding & Bonding book. It definitely took me to another level and I didn't have to become a union apprentice to learn the differnce between grounding and bonding! I'm sure that'll come as a shock to ol' Sparky Joe who knows everything and everyone else knows nothing who isn't union. And I know of a few union electricians who know nothing about sizing feeders for 1200A services and the required bonding that goes along with it. So Joe, get over yourself. Not everyone knows everything, including you!

Question: On a 120/240 volt single phase service, why does the utility company use an uninsulated grounded conductor?


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Guy's, I must admit not too many of you are able to catch on to my sly little humor at times so I will break it down for you. Most of you have done the exact same thing while hooking up ranges and dryers at some point in your career before the code stopped allowing it. But it was allowed in the code, so you didn't do anything wrong at the time. I never said it was a good or safe practice, but I always get a big kick out of when forum veterans gang up on somebody over this practice that they themselves in essence have done without realizing it was the same condition. By the way, Mike Holt's books are the best, and his grounding and bonding is the best of his books.

As far as the second quiz question goes, that was directed at one poster in particular who really needs to learn more before jumping on the bandwagon, but I'm not going to say who, or start up another fight. I let you figure it out for yourselves.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

OK, not totally done. Just done bickering.

Mac, I wouldn't say it was the same condition. The circumstances were very different, specifically the type of cable used. 
It's not like we used to use 2-wire NM cable for ranges.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

Hey Grav, you still there? Did any of us answer your question as to why using the ground wire for a neutral was a bad idea? Seems like a whole bunch of people forgot that you asked a question. If I'd have had this bunch jump me every time I asked a question, I'd have never learned a damned thing except that some electricians have huge egos and get off showing how much more they know than the other guy. I'm thankful I had good teachers through the years. I hope you find some too. :furious:


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

jrclen said:


> Hey Grav, you still there? Did any of us answer your question as to why using the ground wire for a neutral was a bad idea? Seems like a whole bunch of people forgot that you asked a question. If I'd have had this bunch jump me every time I asked a question, I'd have never learned a damned thing except that some electricians have huge egos and get off showing how much more they know than the other guy. I'm thankful I had good teachers through the years. I hope you find some too. :furious:


Yes surprisingly enough a few answered my as many different ways as it took until I understood.

Maybe its been a rough week for everyone? Seems like every contractor, sub contractor, and every customer I know is having a bad week.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

To address the 3-wire oven range thing, I come across a lot of SE cable used for this application, obviously in older homes. The problem with this type install is that current can flow on the metal frame of the range. By using a 4-wire, the bond between the neutral and ground is not made and therefore no neutral current can flow on the frame (chassis) of the range.

250.140

Did I explain that okay?


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Nice reply jr. I'm still trying to figure it out as well. I deal with elecrtrics/electronics on a marine basis, this includes a bonding and/or isolation system. With certain exceptions all paths lead to ground, how we get there can be a huge headache.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> With certain exceptions all paths lead to ground, how we get there can be a huge headache.


*Source* Teetor. Please tell me you were using the word ground in a generic way. Under the right conditions of voltage and impedence the ground itself can become a path of transmission back to the source of the generated voltage, but it is never the final destination unless you are talking about lightning. I wish the word "ground" would dissapear entirely from electrical discussions and get replaced with a better word.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Speedy Petey said:


> OK, not totally done. Just done bickering.
> 
> Mac, I wouldn't say it was the same condition. The circumstances were very different, specifically the type of cable used.
> It's not like we used to use 2-wire NM cable for ranges.


Because they were wired for 240 volts.:thumbsup: But they still shared one conductor for the purpose of neutral and equipment (dare I use this nasty word?) "ground". Therefore the frames of said machines were capable of carrying electrical current, and potentially dangerous. They are still out there and still potentially dangerous. I am a culprit in the wiring of many of them, all legal at the time, just like I suspect many of the other fellows here are. :whistling


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I wish the word "ground" would dissapear entirely from electrical discussions and get replaced with a better word.


Earthed?

Aren't that using something like that in the '08?


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Celtic said:


> Earthed?
> 
> Aren't that using something like that in the '08?


Don't like that one either. I would prefer "bonding path" or sum such, but I am just not qualified to be the term inventor cause I don't belong to any associations or have fancy credentials to give it enough weight. How does that one sound? Now we would have to figure something out for the terms "grounded conductor" and "ungrounded conductor", but its Friday night, give me a few hours of "research" time with my bong and I'll think of something :jester:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> ...but its Friday night, give me a few hours of "research" time with my bong and I'll think of something :jester:


You do that...but don't go thinking you're gonna bogart my pie when the munchies hit :laughing:


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## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

gravtyklz said:


> This is true....this thread minus the worthless insults would only be maybe 5 posts long.
> 
> If any of you woke up one day an all knowing electrican congratulations, you should be on Oprah or something.
> 
> ...


Hey Grav, Are you still interested in X10?:w00t:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

*X10*

I remember a few years back....every time I opened a yahoo window I would get an avalanche of x10 ads...that pissed me off.

Totally irrelevant to any of the numerous topics and tangents in this thread, but just something I felt everyone should know for no particular reason :jester:


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

robertc65 said:


> Hey Grav, Are you still interested in X10?:w00t:


Definitely, i'de like to try it on this job, and if I like how it all works I would definitely use it more.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Earth was where I was going next but you don't hear that much unless you read Tesla or Edison. The basics remain the same. Positive charges react to negative charges. The variables constitute the problems.

EXCEPT for today when PROGRAMMERS can manipulate the basics and REALLY screw systems up.


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

Celtic said:


> I remember a few years back....every time I opened a yahoo window I would get an avalanche of x10 ads...that pissed me off.
> 
> Totally irrelevant to any of the numerous topics and tangents in this thread, but just something I felt everyone should know for no particular reason :jester:


atleast you're having fun and not trying to maim someone


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Gravityklz, I'd love to help on the x-10, but the last time I fooled around with any of that stuff it was so long ago they still had that ugly box with the buttons on top for a master controller. :laughing:


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

macmikeman said:


> Gravityklz, I'd love to help on the x-10, but the last time I fooled around with any of that stuff it was so long ago they still had that ugly box with the buttons on top for a master controller. :laughing:


They still have some pretty dated looking stuff on their website. A lot of what they have is cheesy, but still a few things are good, or they look and sound good at least.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Back to topic? You can PM your X-10 comments or other whatZits.


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> Back to topic? You can PM your X-10 comments or other whatZits.


X-10 is a solution to the original problem on here acutally. I'm surprised anyone got around to thinking about that. :clap:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

gravtyklz said:


> atleast you're having fun and not trying to maim someone


Isn't that a better route?


I teased you a bit, you took it in stride, you learned something(possibly some other people too), we laughed and laughed and laughed....and I got a pie! ....well the promise of a pie, no actual pie :furious:

If anyone should be PO'ed in this thread it should be me - WHERE'S MY DAM PIE!


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> *Source* Teetor. Please tell me you were using the word ground in a generic way. Under the right conditions of voltage and impedence the ground itself can become a path of transmission back to the source of the generated voltage, but it is never the final destination unless you are talking about lightning. I wish the word "ground" would dissapear entirely from electrical discussions and get replaced with a better word.


I agree that we all throw that ground word around a lot. And usually we know what we mean. I understood what Teetor said and meant. But I have run across a lot of untrained people who don't have a clue about "ground." An instructor years ago told us, "there is no resturant in the ground that the electrons want to go to. They want to return to the source, and will use the earth to get there." That made perfect sense to me then and still seems to apply today. Like you, I would like to see a better term.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

I like that resturant thing, thats good. I've been teasing that they get trapped in the cooling magma below the crust for lack of a better mock. A week ago I had a great exchange with a person who lists himself in another community forum as an "electrical expert" and answers public inquiries about electrical matters. He believes in the resturant below. I tried to straighten him out in a fairly polite manner, and in return got a tirade about his many years of electrical instructor time, accolades from many organizations, and other laurels. It is a common mistaken theory largely propigated because early on they picked that one word to symbolize the current return path.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Here's another link:
Free Grounding Video (30 minute video) ...found on Mike Holt's site.

...and some more from Mike:

View 2005 NEC®  Grounding vs Bonding Videos
(this link should come with a price tag ~ but it's free from Mike)


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## te12c02w (Jun 1, 2007)

DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT use the grounding conductor for a neutral.


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

te12c02w said:


> DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT use the grounding conductor for a neutral.


I think we're all getting that as the general consensus.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

Celtic said:


> ...and I got a pie! ....well the promise of a pie, no actual pie :furious:
> 
> If anyone should be PO'ed in this thread it should be me - WHERE'S MY DAM PIE!


I said that you had EARNED your pie, not that I was buying you one. :whistling :no:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> I said that you had EARNED your pie, not that I was buying you one. :whistling :no:



Why is it like pulling teeth to get a pie out of you people?:furious:


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## Bubbles (Sep 27, 2007)

*For Gravity*

Don't feel so bad gravity. I just saw a huge developers crew use an insulted ground at light pole and the 120v leg to be used to carry current for things out in parking lot (receptacles, signs, etc..) because the didn't want to run a new circuit under driveways. They had 8 parking lot lights almost already maxed out on a 30 amp 2 pole breaker (240v). They said the lights would be off in the day so it would'nt be a problem to use the recep. then??? It was really sad. I turned them in of course.


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## DaveTap (Nov 8, 2006)

Bubbles said:


> Don't feel so bad gravity. I just saw a huge developers crew use an insulted ground at light pole and the 120v leg to be used to carry current for things out in parking lot (receptacles, signs, etc..) because the didn't want to run a new circuit under driveways. They had 8 parking lot lights almost already maxed out on a 30 amp 2 pole breaker (240v). They said the lights would be off in the day so it would'nt be a problem to use the recep. then??? It was really sad. I turned them in of course.


Whats even sadder about that is they would have to turn on the contactor for all the lot lights just to make that one outlet hot... (unless they were on individual photocells)


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

Celtic said:


> Cutting holes IS a solution...maybe not the most popular solution over at the OP's job site - but an acceptable solution nonetheless.
> 
> Cut the hole/s in the rock...get a drill with a sharp bit and an extension....forget about the nail plates and be done even FASTER :thumbsup:.



With two 4' bit extensions all these were wired and snaked through the ceiling joists. Finished floor above.


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

Only reason I could see for not cutting holes and drilling it properly is because you would have to retape the ceiling in some parts. A good taper will have that hidden in two days time and the wiring done correctly.


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

I've actually found a great X10 solution for it. When I explained it to the GC's customer they were amazed by it and showed me a place in the basement where they want me to do the same thing.

Researching for ways to do this without damaging the sheetrock has openned up another avenue for our remodel jobs.


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## shed-n-deck (Sep 25, 2007)

So here is my question pertaining to ground as a neutral; On electric hotwater heaters, there are 2 wires, a black and a red......On the plate, there is a green screw marked [GND] ground....Anytime I've ever seen one installed, it's installed using 10 or 12 Gauge 2 wire romex with ground....No neutral. Same thing for base board heaters, there is no neutral connection, only ground....If a person were to connect an insulated 3 wire romex with ground and installed the neutral to the ground, it doesn't seem to me it would make a difference, current would still flow through the ground. So my question is why if it is dangerous practice to use a neutral as a ground, then why are heater manufacturers not following suit? Or is this a different situation.


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

shed-n-deck said:


> So here is my question pertaining to ground as a neutral; On electric hotwater heaters, there are 2 wires, a black and a red......On the plate, there is a green screw marked [GND] ground....Anytime I've ever seen one installed, it's installed using 10 or 12 Gauge 2 wire romex with ground....No neutral. Same thing for base board heaters, there is no neutral connection, only ground....If a person were to connect an insulated 3 wire romex with ground and installed the neutral to the ground, it doesn't seem to me it would make a difference, current would still flow through the ground. So my question is why if it is dangerous practice to use a neutral as a ground, then why are heater manufacturers not following suit? Or is this a different situation.


Ummmm, never mind. You'll get beat up enough by the rest of the group. Just think about 220 for a minute though, OK.


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## shed-n-deck (Sep 25, 2007)

No, I won't get beat up, I didn't use 10 or 12 gauge wire, even I know better than that...Plus, I'm not claiming to be something that I'm not...I'm just posing a question that may to some seem simple, but the question is quite perplexing to a non electric head like myself...I'm not going to argue with anyone, but I am interested in this subject, I spent an hour reading this thread....I don't know enough to argue.

Oh, I don't know if you saw the other thread where I posted a comment on 220V, but if you did, you'd know that my 220V thought process is a bit lacking...


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## gravtyklz (Dec 24, 2005)

shed-n-deck said:


> No, I won't get beat up, I didn't use 10 or 12 gauge wire, even I know better than that...Plus, I'm not claiming to be something that I'm not...I'm just posing a question that may to some seem simple, but the question is quite perplexing to a non electric head like myself...I'm not going to argue with anyone, but I am interested in this subject, I spent an hour reading this thread....I don't know enough to argue.
> 
> Oh, I don't know if you saw the other thread where I posted a comment on 220V, but if you did, you'd know that my 220V thought process is a bit lacking...


10-2 Romex is pretty common for hot water heaters if thats what you're talking about.

Beat up or not beat up as long as you get you're answer I'm sure you'll be satisfied.....thats how I feel atleast.


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## shed-n-deck (Sep 25, 2007)

I agree grav...If someone wants to be mean to me, that's fine, but I'm certain the next guy will jump on the opportunity to help educate a simple minded carpenter..... And that's all I care about...


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

shed-n-deck said:


> I agree grav...If someone wants to be mean to me, that's fine, but I'm certain the next guy will jump on the opportunity to help educate a simple minded carpenter..... And that's all I care about...


You are such a moron....I can't believe you waste professional electricians time with these first graders questions.......I despise people like you.......:laughing:


Just kidding, but you had it coming right :whistling


Think of it as your house is fed with 220; simply 2 wires that equal 220 between them. Well now imagine tapping off the center of what connects those 2 wires, this would be your neutral. Because this neutral is tapped from the center of your 220 volt coil you now have 120 from common to one side of the coil and to the other side.

I'm trying not to go too much further without knowing where the haziness is, but 220 is natural for the transformer, and it's human ingenuity that tapped it in the center to get 120 :thumbsup:


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

Imagine a saw blade with only two teeth on it as compared to a normal blade with maybe 60 teeth. You know already that a 60 tooth blade is only cutting the wood 60 times per revolution. With the two tooth blade it would only be cutting the wood two times per revolution. Electricity for a regular 240 volt ac circuit works just like the two tooth saw blade in that the voltage is at it’s peak voltage two times per revolution.

Here is a graph of what the voltage would look like as it cycles. There are times when the voltage between the two “hots” is anywhere between 0 and 240. “0” on the graph would be where the system neutral would be. The system ground would also be attached at this point so that the electrical system has a reference point to ground for technical reasons that I won’t go into.

And for all the electrical genius’s :jester:this graph is a simplistic view and is not technically accurate.

View attachment 6852


View attachment 6853


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

shed-n-deck said:


> ......Same thing for base board heaters, there is no neutral connection, only ground....If a person were to connect an insulated 3 wire romex with ground and installed the neutral to the ground, it doesn't seem to me it would make a difference, current would still flow through the ground. So my question is why if it is dangerous practice to use a neutral as a ground, then why are heater manufacturers not following suit? Or is this a different situation.


VERY different. 

A 240v circuit, such as your water heater, a baseboard heater, or a big table saw, whatever, DOES NOT require a neutral. As CE1's graph shows, current flows from line to line, it has NO interaction with a neutral. This ONLY comes into play when there are 120v loads present.

So......with no neutral required you only have the two hots, and the ground which is there for safety. The circuit WILL _function_ absolutely fine even without the ground. 

It is incorrect to use a white wire as the ground as in your example, but it is not unsafe. It IS however unsafe to do the opposite. 
Having current on the bare ground, which has continuity with all metal parts of any appliance or tool, is extremely unsafe!!

Understand?


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

Digger1799 said:


> With two 4' bit extensions all these were wired and snaked through the ceiling joists. Finished floor above.


Nice job. Shows how the job can be done right with a minimum of tearing things up.

Funny story here. When I first bought my new fancy long bit (6 footer) I needed something to try it out on. My wife always wanted a receptacle behind the night stand by the bed. Outside wall. No problem, I told her. With this bit I can put that in quick. With her watching, I cut the single gang hole, pulled the insulation from the box ends in the basement, stuck my new bit in the hole, and drilled. I felt the bit go through the plate and the sub floor. Then it dropped 10 inches or so and stopped. Smiling at the wife, I went down in the basement to connect the wire to pull back up through the hole. Just for the drama effect. I looked all over for that bit and it was no where down there. Went outside. Yup, there it was. Sticking out of the back of the house, right through my 2 year old new siding. Dang it. I found out that is what that steering handle is for that I was to cheap to buy. She didn't laugh to long. By the time I ordered that handle off the internet, she was back to normal. I redrilled and installed the outlet, no problem. I told her it was better to practice on our house than a customer's house with my new drill bit. So she asked for another half dozen outlets here and there to let me practice. I have since gotten quite a bit better at steering that sucker.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

shed-n-deck said:


> So here is my question pertaining to ground as a neutral; On electric hotwater heaters, there are 2 wires, a black and a red......On the plate, there is a green screw marked [GND] ground....Anytime I've ever seen one installed, it's installed using 10 or 12 Gauge 2 wire romex with ground....No neutral. Same thing for base board heaters, there is no neutral connection, only ground....If a person were to connect an insulated 3 wire romex with ground and installed the neutral to the ground, it doesn't seem to me it would make a difference, current would still flow through the ground. So my question is why if it is dangerous practice to use a neutral as a ground, then why are heater manufacturers not following suit? Or is this a different situation.


That water heater is a 240 volt load. No neutral there at all. Just 2 hot wires along with a ground wire that carries no current. Most 240 volt circuits are that way. The whole point in this thread is that a ground (grounding) wire carries no current except when there is a fault. That is true no matter what voltage the circuit is.


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## shed-n-deck (Sep 25, 2007)

Well I learned something....So 220 is a 2 wire system, where each wire acts as the other wires neutral, so to speak...Okay, so the 220V system has 2 hots, one at +110, the other at -110, whereas a 110V system only has the + or -110 and needs the neutral to complete the circuit...Is that right?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

shed-n-deck said:


> Well I learned something....So 220 is a 2 wire system, where each wire acts as the other wires neutral, so to speak...Okay, so the 220V system has 2 hots, one at +110, the other at -110, whereas a 110V system only has the + or -110 and needs the neutral to complete the circuit...Is that right?



Not even close....


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

jrclen said:


> Nice job. Shows how the job can be done right with a minimum of tearing things up.
> 
> Funny story here. When I first bought my new fancy long bit (6 footer) I needed something to try it out on. My wife always wanted a receptacle behind the night stand by the bed. Outside wall. No problem, I told her. With this bit I can put that in quick. With her watching, I cut the single gang hole, pulled the insulation from the box ends in the basement, stuck my new bit in the hole, and drilled. I felt the bit go through the plate and the sub floor. Then it dropped 10 inches or so and stopped. Smiling at the wife, I went down in the basement to connect the wire to pull back up through the hole. Just for the drama effect. I looked all over for that bit and it was no where down there. Went outside. Yup, there it was. Sticking out of the back of the house, right through my 2 year old new siding. Dang it. I found out that is what that steering handle is for that I was to cheap to buy. She didn't laugh to long. By the time I ordered that handle off the internet, she was back to normal. I redrilled and installed the outlet, no problem. I told her it was better to practice on our house than a customer's house with my new drill bit. So she asked for another half dozen outlets here and there to let me practice. I have since gotten quite a bit better at steering that sucker.


Like this? :laughing:

View attachment 6857


Been There Done That!:notworthy


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

CE1 said:


> Like this? :laughing:
> 
> View attachment 6857
> 
> ...


ME TOO. Have a house in Vermont with a roof patch because I was in the learning stage. Same situation only I was feeding it up into the attic. It was a 2x6 top plate and I had to be at the center to inside to make it work. I eneded up at the outside and went right through the 12/12 pitched roof.

Just like you, it was my own home too!


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

shed-n-deck said:


> Oh, I don't know if you saw the other thread where I posted a comment on 220V, but if you did, you'd know that my 220V thought process is a bit lacking...



Yeah, I read the other thread first. At least your giving us a laugh. :laughing:

I'd rather someone ask a million questions and either do it right or keep away than someone that jumps into it without a clue. So keep asking as long as you dont tell us your in the middle of wiring a shed for 220. :thumbup:


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## shed-n-deck (Sep 25, 2007)

Digger1799 said:


> Yeah, I read the other thread first. At least your giving us a laugh. :laughing:
> 
> I'd rather someone ask a million questions and either do it right or keep away than someone that jumps into it without a clue. So keep asking as long as you dont tell us your in the middle of wiring a shed for 220. :thumbup:


Well, actually......

No, I don't wire anything. I've just always been fond of learning new things about stuff that I've no idea about.....I keep a database in my head, it's filled with information that I have no use for, and I am just looking for ways to add to that info...I'm glad that at least my lack of knowledge is worth a good laugh, that means that I am giving back to the community....


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

CE1 said:


> Like this? :laughing:
> 
> View attachment 6857
> 
> ...


About 2 years ago, I got a call from an electrician I know. He was kinda frantic and asked me to come and bail him out of a "situation". He was putting in some recessed lights for a doctor who had a very nice house in Huntington Harbor...a pretty upscale area. The sparky was using one of those long drill bits and hit a copper water line. He shut off the water fairly quickly, but not before it did a fair amount of damage. we had to replace about an 8' square section of living room ceiling. He thought he could do all this without telling the doctor about it, but the re-paint was a beeitch. The living room ceiling was connected to an adjoining hallway and there was no way to just paint the repaired area. I wanted nothing to do with the painting, so I fixed the ceiling and he was on his own...I'm not sure what the outcome was.


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