# What's it take to be a GC?



## Guest (Mar 29, 2006)

The G.C. is the idiot stupid enough to bet he can do a bunch of loosely defined non-co-ordinated work to the satisfaction of the picky owner on-time utilizing the local idiots and inferior material and still make enough money to suvive.:blink:


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## Spectatorz (Jun 11, 2004)

maj said:


> WELL EXCUUUUUUUSE ME:furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:
> I guess all the SCABS in Iowa are all pieces of ********************, then aren't they.
> 
> I believe I stated before that I wish Iowa did have a licensing requirement, but I don't make the laws!!!!
> ...


Thats a Very Interesting point you make.

In my humble opinion :
The measure of quality work as you might speak of would be based on What Standard or should I ask Who's Standards of Workmanship ?

There really need's to be some form of a legitimate regulatory board for the industry in All States across the Country, otherwise people can call themselves "GC's and Contractors" at will. No?!?!


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Spectatorz said:


> Thats a Very Interesting point you make.
> 
> In my humble opinion :
> The measure of quality work as you might speak of would be based on What Standard or should I ask Who's Standards of Workmanship ?
> ...


So who is to say that just because someone worked in a trade for 4 years, took a 4 hour test, and purchased a bond;he only does quality work. On the other hand, the person who is not required to do the above, is not able to do quality work?!!???!??

I don't understand how you guys can sit clear across the country and judge the quality of our work just because we don't have signed certificate from the governer.


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## Spectatorz (Jun 11, 2004)

My question was and still is : 
By "What Standard or Who's Standard of measure do you determine What Quality work is?"

My effort to answer the question that was originally posted seems to be getting twisted around to be a measure of some degree of quality regarding some form of work... No ?


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## Spectatorz (Jun 11, 2004)

maj said:


> So who is to say that just because someone worked in a trade for 4 years, took a 4 hour test, and purchased a bond;he only does quality work. On the other hand, the person who is not required to do the above, is not able to do quality work?!!???!??
> 
> I don't understand how you guys can sit clear across the country and judge the quality of our work just because we don't have signed certificate from the governer.


Around here it is the California State License Board that sets the "Standards" of being a "GC" some guys Can and Do Hold to them and others dont.


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

nadonailer said:


> I can't believe some states don't have licensing requirements! Jeez... I'd love to see some of that work
> 
> If you don't have a State Contractor's License, then you are not a contractor. I've been assuming that everyone calling themselves contractors on here are actually licensed by their respective states. No?


Here are a few of the states not requiring building contractors to be licensed BY THE STATE: 
Washington
Oregon
Arizona under $750,000
Idaho
Montana
Wyomig
Colorado
South Dakota
Kansas
Oklahoma
Texas
Missouri
Iowa
Illinois
District of Columbia
Maryland
Kentucky
Indiana
Ohio
Alaska
Pennsylvania
New Jersey
New York
Rhode Island
New Hampshire
Vermont
Maine


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Whew..... There must be alot of junk being built in these states


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

maj said:


> WELL EXCUUUUUUUSE ME:furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:
> I guess all the SCABS in Iowa are all pieces of ********************, then aren't they.


He's not calling _you_ a scab. He's only calling the people working illegally in CA scabs. 

I could bring up my example about drivers licenses again, but that didn't go over so well the other day (in another post). :laughing: I guess you just wouldn't understand how it is unless you lived here. 

Even though you don't think we seem like the GC's in your area, some of the kitchen and bath remodels around here are pretty spendy! Our baths run $25-$50K. The kitchen we just finished was $125K, and we just bid on a full interior remodel for over $200K, and we're just starting out. So it is still a lot of responsibility.


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Melissa said:


> I guess you just wouldn't understand how it is unless you lived here.


And vice versa


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

maj said:


> Here are a few of the states not requiring building contractors to be licensed BY THE STATE:
> Washington
> Oregon
> Arizona under $750,000
> ...



Maj, - - although I 100% 'agree' with the 'overall point' you are trying to make here, - - do note that NEW JERSEY does now require 'licensing', - - it just started this year. :thumbsup:


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

That list is so surprising to me! I really had no idea!


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Yeah Tom, I kinda figured there were a few changes to the list. I think the site is a little outdated.

As I have said before, I wish Iowa would jump on board.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

maj said:


> Yeah Tom, I kinda figured there were a few changes to the list. I think the site is a little outdated.
> 
> As I have said before, I wish Iowa would jump on board.


Yeah, I think it's the best way overall, - - I'm sure they'll jump on board soon, - - it might behoove ya' to be the one to start suggesting it. :thumbsup:


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

But Iowa can't even make up their mind if they want touchplay slot machines or not.

A few months ago they made it legal to put these machines in bars & convenience stores, now the gov. says, take 'em out. Poor bastards that spent millions of dollars to put em in, now they're SOL!!!


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

maj said:


> But Iowa can't even make up their mind if they want touchplay slot machines or not.
> 
> A few months ago they made it legal to put these machines in bars & convenience stores, now the gov. says, take 'em out. Poor bastards that spent millions of dollars to put em in, now they're SOL!!!



Sheesh!!, - - now see, in Jersey, - - any 'decision' that puts money in a politician's pocket is FINAL!!:laughing:


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

> I see a post every now & then where someone is asking the most basic guestion regarding the contracting business. I would think people would do their homework and learn the trade before starting such a complicated business.I am fairly mechanically inclined but not trained or even spent much time under a hood, so I would not just go out and open an auto repair shop without learning first how to be a mechanic.





> Without a technical degree in construction or engineering, or quite a few years of working for large construction firms (or preferably both), the odds of becoming an effective GC in less than a few decades are pretty slim. All told, it's much easier to become a medical doctor.





> It is very difficult, if not impossible, to get anywhere as a general contractor without at least one good mentor. Most people never figure out what it is that they're supposed to be learning. In their whole lives, most only get bits and pieces of it.
> 
> Construction is easy, it's just physics and calculus. General contracting is much more than that...


THIS IS THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE:wallbash:


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Spectatorz said:


> My question was and still is :
> By "What Standard or Who's Standard of measure do you determine What Quality work is?"
> 
> My effort to answer the question that was originally posted seems to be getting twisted around to be a measure of some degree of quality regarding some form of work... No ?


I believe NADONAILER decided to be the judge of that:furious: :furious:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

nadonailer said:


> I can't believe some states don't have licensing requirements! Jeez... I'd love to see some of that work
> 
> Basically, in order to call yourself a 'contractor', you need to be licensed. Period. If you don't have a State Contractor's License, then you are not a contractor. I've been assuming that everyone calling themselves contractors on here are actually licensed by their respective states. No?


Nope.


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## nadonailer (Nov 15, 2005)

maj said:


> I believe NADONAILER decided to be the judge of that:furious: :furious:


MAJ - Sorry if I offended you, man, I didn't mean to! Ever since I've been contracting there's always been these unlicensed guys using crews of Mexicans and underbidding everyone substantially! It just really pisses me off that the guys that abide by the law end up getting screwed! Again, no offense intended


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## saucedo80 (Mar 21, 2005)

The way I see it contracting is like the Military.

GENERAL IN THE ARMY: Ultimate command of a mission or operation. Coordinates and directs all soldiers in the division to get a certain task done.

GENERAL CONTRACTOR: Ultimate command an entire contstruction project, coordinates and directs all sub contractors to get the overall construction project done

COLONEL IN THE ARMY: Works under the general, has ultimate command of his/her specialized Unit(artillery, transport, tank unit) coordinates, directs, and accomplishes his/her specific task contributing to the completion of the mission

SUB CONTRACTOR: Works under the general contractor, has ultimate command of his/her specialized company (painting, roofing, plumbing) coordinates, directs and accomplishes his/her specialized trade contributing to the overall completion of the construction project.


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

> I don't mean this as a knock on anyone's skills or abilities, but in my opinion, I'd much rather know that the school building my child sits in, the hospitals that we rely on, the very home we lay our heads down in each night was built by someone who was adequately trained, proven by examination and held accountable by a licensing board, than someone who bought that right for $25 and some insurance.






> Maj, I promise, I do not mean to offend, this is just adults discussing something, but as the law stands at the moment and from what you've stated yourself in reference to the nonexam contractors being just as equal to tested and state licensed contractors... do you realize that I could move to Iowa and be a contractor capable of doing anything you do and I've never driven the first nail successfully? I have a degree in Nursing, Business Administration and Computer Sciences.. never a day of hands on construction experience other than watching the guys who work for us, yet I could move to Iowa and build a house? Surely I am not the only one who has issues with that...


You have no idea lady!!!:wallbash:


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

maj said:


> joasis said:
> 
> 
> > 1. I still don't understand how a license can magically make me a better qualified carpenter. To say that without a license we are inferior to those that are required to have one makes me furious. :furious: :furious: :furious:
> ...


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

*OK..... gloves off*

:boxing: 

Seems we all got off topic..

I did not in any way mean for this thread to turn into what it has. I do not question the quality of work by anyone on this forum:thumbsup: I would hope that others do not judge mine:thumbsup: :thumbsup: 

For the record:

I AM a registered contractor in the state of Iowa
I do carry the required work comp. 
I have a $2,000,000 blanket liability policy for business, tool insurance,and shop insurance.
I pay state & federal unemployment.
I have a retail sales tax permit.
I have about $50,000 invested in vehicles, equipment, & tools.

I have NEVER called myself a General Contractor, nor do I want to be.:no: 

I DO think the $25 bi-annual fee for the registration certificate is a joke:thumbdown 

I did realize certain licensing requirements were needed for certain aspects of the construction industry.

I DID NOT realize the "average joe" carpenter, remodeler, handyman, etc. needed to be licensed in their respective states WHERE it is REQUIRED. BTW, that is what I class myself... "an average joe carpenter"

I CAN be called an Independent Contractor in MY state, although I now know that I can't in the state of California.

This last point is what I was not aware of.. I apologize for my ingnorance, but that's why I started this thread. I wanted the facts and the different meanings for the term "General Contractor"

Melissa.... Honestly, I was not refering to you in my first post. I really had no one in particular, just several posts in general, where it seemed to ME a very basic question being asked. I am just so accustomed to the way things work around here where most contractors have served many years working for other contractors first as "grunts", then moving eventually up to lead carpenters. The successful people who do an honest and high quality job for the customer around here will be the ones who last. I will have to say that MOST people do an honest, high quality job here.

PLEASE remember, I live in a small rural community where your business depends on quality.If someone is doing a good job of building, word gets out,, If someone is doing a not so good job, word REALLY gets out. Most of my customers are people I have known for years and probably grew up with. It's kind of like the old show "Cheers", where everybody knows your name. Quality or not so quality is kind of synonymous with the name around here.

It seems to me after reading back through this mess, we totally went off track at post #18, so I am sorry, Nadonailer, if I appeared to be a "scab" to you. I will tell you that I pride myself highly on the work that I do, because around here that's what it takes to stay in business. I go to the same church as alot of my customers, my kids go to the same school as theirs', I see them on the streets and wave or stop to visit..

And yes, we leave the keys in our cars, the windows down in summer, and some leave 'em running in the winter when they go to the store!!!!!
There actually is some trust, integrity, and accountability left in places of this screwed up country:clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup:


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## nadonailer (Nov 15, 2005)

maj said:


> :boxing:
> 
> Seems we all got off topic..
> 
> I did not in any way mean for this thread to turn into what it has. I do not question the quality of work by anyone on this forum:thumbsup: I would hope that others do not judge mine:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Nope...



maj said:


> I DO think the $25 bi-annual fee for the registration certificate is a joke:thumbdown


Sure seems like it! Although I am basically anti-government, I still see the need for some basic watchdog, if you will, to oversee the building industry (although most inspectors are worthless anyway and it really does come down to honesty and integrity.



> I DID NOT realize the "average joe" carpenter, remodeler, handyman, etc. needed to be licensed in their respective states WHERE it is REQUIRED. BTW, that is what I class myself... "an average joe carpenter"
> I CAN be called an Independent Contractor in MY state, although I now know that I can't in the state of California.


Remember, one reason CA is so strict is because of the Earthquake thing. Ever since the Northridge quake, the code guys have gone crazy, everything is so overbuilt as to be just insane!



> It seems to me after reading back through this mess, we totally went off track at post #18, so I am sorry, Nadonailer, if I appeared to be a "scab" to you.


No, No, No - I was referring ONLY to my competitors in CA who don't play by 'the rules' I believe in a level playing field. You have yours , we have ours. I never meant to impugn the quality of anyone's work! You would have to visit SoCal and see for yourself, I guess...



> And yes, we leave the keys in our cars, the windows down in summer, and some leave 'em running in the winter when they go to the store!!!!!
> There actually is some trust, integrity, and accountability left in places of this screwed up country:clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup:


Beleive it or not, the little town I live in is much the same!


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I must respond to Realpurty on the idea of whether we really know our Sh*t or not. For one thing, my right to PLAY at being a GC is based on satisfied customers, quality work, and maintaining my credibility in a VERY competitive field. It has been my experience, in a tight market like we have here (everyone knows everyone), the weak and poor performers are weeded out long before they ever get to projects that get exciting. I have to ask, how many houses are built by builders and GENERAL CONTRACTORS who are first time newbies, with no experience or training? Hell, I am a pilot, and worked my experience level up from the bottom, i didn't start flying a Baron...Ok, moving right along. I spent a few years doing remodels and roofing before I ever had a chance to bid on a room addition. It was another few years and lots and lots of quality jobs completed before I was "contracted" to build a house. Now, I get a few calls a week on new homes. Now as to the training and experience levels you think make or break us. I agree to a point. Everyone learns differently, most get it on the school of hard knocks plan. A few do it through trade schools, but I have never seen an all around GC training module, most are geared toward one area or a mechanical trade. I worked for a contractor building houses before I went to college. I also have a technical background in machining and hold an A&P license. Any of this count? NO, but it makes a workable background for me. I worked in engineering and estimating for a steel building manufacturer before I got back into construction. That experience, plus my desire to learn everything I can, makes it happen for me. Maybe not everyone or very few others do it like I did, but it worked for me. I can take and pass any exam I have seen. I have the experience at the levels described as needed for the Ca. license. ( I keep up since Oklahoma will play big brother soon and make us toe the line) I'll refer back to flying: A license does not make a pilot, experience does. I do not need a plumbers license to perform as a GC, nor an elec. lic., or mech. lic. What I do need and have is a good understanding of what they do, how it works, and the ability to find out information I need if I come up short. Now to close this line for me, I am humbly sorry I live and work in a state that lets us work, for the time being, without the licence, but I like it here, and while California is a great place, like Florida and other places, I prefer it here, and it isn't over a license...if it comes, I will get it, no big deal. Will it make my work any better or higher quality? I don't know, but one thing for sure is IT WILL BE MORE EXPENSIVE to my customers.


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Well said joasis :clap: :notworthy :thumbup: :clap: :notworthy :thumbsup:


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Jeez folks, it really pans out as simple.

If your in the biz and you have no clue, your prey in the world of natural selection, your going to get in eaten.

Do you think the deer with the broken leg gives a crap what state he's in? The only thing he knows is the wolf is comin baby.

Now, why on earth would we want to create more wolves, even if we are the healthy deer?

Our gov is only out for one thing, your money, and unfortunately your money is your health in this natural spin off we call a market.

If ya don't get it, my point spells like this: The idiots won't last, the inspectors are in place. Why must you pay homage to the wolf?

Bob


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## G54Bstore (Feb 19, 2006)

your not a general contractor unless you have passed the state test and got a licsense to pull permits here in FL.
let me tell you it took me 4 times to pass the test.
its not very easy.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

In respect to everyone who has to have a few shots at tests, I didn't meant to brag about "passing any test". As lots of you know, some tests are a bear, multiple takes, and lots of headaches to pass. I am one of the fortunate ones who soaks up the info, and lays it back out...one of the lasting memories of taking the aviation tests...so, no bragging or offense intended.


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

In Virginia, the class "A" test has three parts. All of them deal with finances.....this tells you how important it is to be business minded. Not until you want to build houses are you required to know soil compaction, header strength requirements, how to read plans.....all of this is on the "BLD" portion which is a seperate test. As much as I despise government intervention, I still think it is good to be licenced by the state. It is validation to others that you are a professional just like doctors, lawyers, etc. If your state does not require testing then good for you...less crap to deal with.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Sometimes, as I think about this particular post, I realize that I still don't communicate the basic point: I will use a current project as an example. A customer wants a new shop building constructed. He calls and asks me to price a 50 X 80 X 16 w/ 24 X 16 OHD's - both endwalls. Now, I call the manuafacturer for the building, my supplier for insulation, my door manufacturer, electrical contractor, plumbing contractor, EPA (septic system), concrete suppliers for bids on 160 yards of concrete, a finisher I use since this is larger then my 2 guys can handle, a trucker to haul fill and sand, and a few other details. 

This is an example of just a simple project, and if any of the steps are missed, the customer would not be a happy camper. Now as to my expertise, I am responsible for obtaining the materials, all to spec, and verifying the building is engineered for IBC '03 codes, and I will have an independent engineer certify (stamp) the drawings. I personally supervise the site work, concrete, steel erection, completion, and the work of the subs, until we hand the keys over to the owner. We will have state inspectors on site 2 or 3 times probably, the owner daily, and a lot of sidewalk super types. Any of you know, that during construction, a multitude of issues or discrepencies will arise, and if I were only a "contractor" I would not venture to go beyond my turf. I have seen many examples of guys buying a steel package, hiring their own concrete guy and he comes in and builds a pad and pours a floor, and when the steel erectors show up, the foundation or anchor bolts are not in place or don't line up. After they correct this, the owner decides a bathroom would be great, but uh oh...no provisions were made before the concrete...you guys get the point. A GC, by my definition, takes the whole project on, and that is what makes a project work. 

Now, if I ( or others like me) in my state, didn't know our stuff, how would we begin to manage the project? If we couldn't price our work correctly, we wouldn't be around for the second project. If we build an inferior building, we won't get another shot. If the state eventually makes us test and license, so be it...will it make me better then I am now? 

Ok people, hack away. ( comment invited)


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## nadonailer (Nov 15, 2005)

joasis said:


> Now, if I ( or others like me) in my state, didn't know our stuff, how would we begin to manage the project? If we couldn't price our work correctly, we wouldn't be around for the second project. If we build an inferior building, we won't get another shot. If the state eventually makes us test and license, so be it...will it make me better then I am now?
> Ok people, hack away. ( comment invited)


No it won't make YOU better than you already are, but here's the point - In my state, you wouldn't get even one chance to screw up! Not that I'm saying you're not capable but I'm sure knowing human nature that occasionally, at least, someone gets in over their head and ends up with a faulty product, right? Wouldn't it be better if that could be avoided?
Hack back


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

nadonailer said:


> No it won't make YOU better than you already are, but here's the point - In my state, you wouldn't get even one chance to screw up! Not that I'm saying you're not capable but I'm sure knowing human nature that occasionally, at least, someone gets in over their head and ends up with a faulty product, right? Wouldn't it be better if that could be avoided?
> Hack back


Is it your contention that no licensed contractor in California screws up or gets in over their head because they passed a written test? Who do you think that you're kidding? The owner of a fresh license is nothing but a novice. You have to pay your dues for quite a few years before you can call yourself a contractor. I've got a whole pocket full of licenses, the date of issue on each one will tell you the exact date that I became a certificated beginner. Get real...


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

mikesewell said:


> Is it your contention that no licensed contractor in California screws up or gets in over their head because they passed a written test? Who do you think that you're kidding? The owner of a fresh license is nothing but a novice. You have to pay your dues for quite a few years before you can call yourself a contractor. I've got a whole pocket full of licenses, the date of issue on each one will tell you the exact date that I became a certificated beginner. Get real...





nadonailer said:


> Specifically, though -to get a contrs. license in Cali, you must prove 4 years experience out of the past 10 in your trade(s), have a contractor sign a certification stating such, pass a fairly rigorous 4 hr. test involving both trade and law (the passing rate is less than 12% in some trades), and obtain a surety bond.


Honestly, it is a pretty hard friggin test. I helped my husband study for it. I don't think a "novice" could pass. That's just my opinion.


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## nadonailer (Nov 15, 2005)

Like she said.....


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

> ...you must prove 4 years experience out of the past 10 in your trade(s), have a contractor sign a certification stating such, pass a fairly rigorous 4 hr...


4 years experience and a written test makes you a raw beginner, not a general contractor. Cut the BS.


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## nadonailer (Nov 15, 2005)

The 4 years must be as a journeyman, foreman, contractor or supervisor and you must be able to perform the trade(s) without supervision. In other words, you must have put in many years prior to the 4 that the state wants proved. Is that what you call a raw beginner? Cut yer own BS....


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

nadonailer said:


> The 4 years must be as a journeyman, foreman, contractor or supervisor and you must be able to perform the trade(s) without supervision. In other words, you must have put in many years prior to the 4 that the state wants proved. Is that what you call a raw beginner? Cut yer own BS....


Only 4 years as supers or contractors? I have been hiring and firing guys who are at this experience level for years. At this stage of their career, they still have to be watched very closely. Most of them have serious shortcomings in several critical areas, and do not yet have a good grasp of the 'big picture'. The vast majority have very poor writing skills, no statics or physics training, and can't even do the simple trigonometry that it takes to run a theodolite, or the simple calculus that it takes to design false-work. Most of them don't even know how to weld. Without someone with more knowledge and experience on the job, there would be serious safety issues, the engineering costs would be astronomical, and the job would run at a snail's pace.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I hate to hack at this again, but in my great state, verification of experience for the trade licenses (elec/plumb/hvac) must be slipshod, because I know one guy who I went to school with years ago became a plumber at 21, after "visiting" an uncle in a recip state for a week, and magically obtaining the requisite experience to apply for the license, never mind the journeyman ticket. Of course, I wouldn't hire this clown to dig a ditch but unlike our state inspector, I know for a fact he is dishonest and a liar. 

I just found out today our new building inspector is going to get 2 years to pass the knowledge area of the trades for inspection purposes.....hmmm...lets see..my electrical contractor has 25 years in the field and this "building inspector" has a new ticket from the state so he can "inspect" my contractors work?

Let me say, I bet there are lots of guys in the states that require the magically impressive GC license who came by the requisite experience by the good old boy method, rather then legitimate experience. Me, I will take EXPERIENCE, HONESTY, INTEGRITY, and the CLIENTS as the proof of how good I am at my job, not the ink on a license.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

definition of a general contractor? i've been in the const. biz now 30+ yrs....by today's definition....a general contractor hires a 22 yr. old construction management b.a. holder...hired by a bunch of white shirts and ties that put him up in a job trailer, give him a cell phone, lap top computer, and a fax machine. their goal, aim is to tell the owner of a property that we can build that project for "x" $'s......based on national averages....then the young project manager finds some other kid with a 13 oz. claw hammer, skil saw, he's the carpentry crew....another kid with a pair of knee pads and a hand trowel...he's the concrete crew...what i'm seeing is general contractors are nothing what they were 15 yrs ago


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

Spectatorz said:


> My question was and still is :
> By "What Standard or Who's Standard of measure do you determine What Quality work is?"
> 
> My effort to answer the question that was originally posted seems to be getting twisted around to be a measure of some degree of quality regarding some form of work... No ?


Who's Standard --- *The Home Owners *

What Standard --- *Your Good Reputation as a Contractor*
--- *Repeat Customers*
--- *Customer Referrals*
--- *Customer References*

If you do sub-par work, at least in a rural area, you will not be in business for long. Hell has no fury like a home owner scorned. Those that do quality work at a fair price will have all of the above.

A license or inspectors does not gaurantee quality work


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Residential Contractor as defined in Arkansas State Code



> Arkansas State
> Residential Licensing Law
> Act 950 of 1999
> 
> ...


You can see from how this is written, that it takes more than just a test here in Arkansas. This is the residential contractor only. There are other classes of contractors as well, but since most of us do residential, I thought you might want to see what the definition and qualifications are. 

You can see that $20,000 is the magic project mark. Under that and no licence is required.


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

Arkansas State
Residential Licensing Law




> The exam is given by:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


.


So your states test covers "law and business". Just how does that show that a licensed contractor in your state does quality work????

Lets see 50 MULTIPLE CHOICE questions on business and law to verify you do quality construction work. :w00t: 

And I'm sure questions are kept top secret and not readily available to "study" before the test


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

Arkansas State
Residential Licensing Law

*http://www.buildersexam.com/Arkansas/?PHPSESSID=78f01fbed79059ffe1b05ed1d8c74dcb*




> *Taking the Builders License Exam
> 
> You have studied diligently and are ready to take the exam. You can arrive with confidence knowing that you are prepared for whatever questions may appear on the test. It is recommended that you arrive 30 minutes prior to your scheduled testing time. When you arrive for the test, you MUST present a current, government-issued photo ID, such as a driver's license. The name on the Admission Letter must exactly match the name on the photo ID used to check in for the exam. In addition, you should bring a non-programmable calculator, 2 sharpened No. 2 pencils, and the Arkansas Contractor's Reference Manual.
> 
> ...


WOW that is really hard. Pay to study the test online. then take 2 hours to complete an open book test and get 35 of the questions right. And those questions deal with business and law (see above post). 

Explain to me again how passing this open book test makes someone a competent contractor who does quality work???????:w00t:


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

R&S Exteriors said:


> Arkansas State
> Residential Licensing Law
> 
> WOW that is really hard. Pay to study the test online. then take 2 hours to complete an open book test and get 35 of the questions right. And those questions deal with business and law (see above post).
> ...


I never said a test made anyone a competent contractor, but if you're just gonna breeze past the part in the law about experience and ability, fine. Ignore it. If you're gonna take what you find on a commercial website over the quoted law, then you're not doing your homework.

I'm not taking a stand either way. To me its becoming a silly argument, not a discussion anymore.

Some folks are choosing to get their noses out of joint, or to look down on others because of regional licensing laws. If you're running a law abiding business, why would you care what is being espoused on a website?

Now, if this were a national debate over a federal requirement, I'd have a dog in that fight, but, until then, I'm just trying to stick to the facts.

Furthermore, how does _not_ knowing the laws governing your business make you a competent contractor? 

Wouldn't you agree that should be required in some way, shape or form? And that form doesn't have to be in the form of a test for a license, btw.


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

Double-A said:


> Furthermore, how does _not_ knowing the laws governing your business make you a competent contractor?


Your right. If a person wants to have a profitable business they need to know the laws and how to run a business.

But many on these posts have argued, and the States that pass these licensing requirements Espouse, that those who have a license are somehow better qualified and more professional. Which is not true at all. 


Did some research on Contractor License tests. 

*Every state I checked used* 

*- Multiple Choice Questions.*
*- Open Book Test.*
*- 50 to 125 questions*
*- 70% to pass*
*- Take as many times as you want*

Also many websites offering to teach the test for any state. Many "guarantee" you will pass or they will either no charge you or refund your money. These are 16 hour courses

Most tests questions are on: *business & law (non-trade questions)*
Quote:

*Testing subjects*

*taxes, recordkeeping, business practices, job-site safety, OSHA requirements, environmental laws, project management, time management, scheduling, estimating, employer requirements and worker rights, contract law and lien law. *


How does an open book, multiple choice test on business & law topics demonstrate that the individual passing the exam is some how more qualified as a contractor then those in non-licensed states.

Personally I would rather have someone with a good reputation for quality work (licensed or not) work on my house rather than someone who qualification is that they passed an open-book multiple choice test with a 70%. 

What about the other 30%. I'd be worried that the 30% incorrectly answered questions might have been crucial to doing a quality job.


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## lxdollarsxl (Apr 13, 2006)

The short answer i think is, knowledge,patients, cool temper and a lot of lost sleep.:whistling


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

R&S Exteriors said:


> How does an open book, multiple choice test on business & law topics demonstrate that the individual passing the exam is some how more qualified as a contractor then those in non-licensed states.


I'm not sure, but the legislators in AR thought that the five items below were important as prerequisite to even being qualified to sit the test;

(1) Experience;
(2) Ability;
(3) The manner of performance of previous contracts;
(4) Financial condition;
(5) Any other fact tending to show ability and willingness to conserve the public health
and safety.

So I guess the answer to you question is, in AR, and other states with similar laws, just getting to take the test means that you have shown some qualification.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

lxdollarsxl said:


> The short answer i think is, knowledge,patients, cool temper and a lot of lost sleep.:whistling


A nice snack and some nap time in the afternoon helps too.:jester:


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

Double-A said:


> I'm not sure, but the legislators in AR thought that the five items below were important as prerequisite to even being qualified to sit the test;
> 
> (1) Experience;
> (2) Ability;
> ...


*Be a little more specific. I guess if you get two buddies to say you have ability and experience and your not "currently" seeking bankruptcy **your good to go for the test. Any stats on how many are turned down to take the test?*



> Originally posted by Joasis
> 
> I hate to hack at this again, but in my great state, verification of experience for the trade licenses (elec/plumb/hvac) must be slipshod, because I know one guy who I went to school with years ago became a plumber at 21, after "visiting" an uncle in a recip state for a week, and magically obtaining the requisite experience to apply for the license, never mind the journeyman ticket. Of course, I wouldn't hire this clown to dig a ditch but unlike our state inspector, I know for a fact he is dishonest and a liar.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

R&S Exteriors said:


> *Be a little more specific. I guess if you get two buddies to say you have ability and experience and your not "currently" seeking bankruptcy your good to go for the test. Any stats on how many are turned down to take the test?*


You have to show financial paperwork as well in the form of a complied or certified Balance or P&L from an accountant. Two friends vouching is not enough if you can't show the income, material costs, etc. to back your claim. I guess that ain't bulletproof either, but I do know that complaints against a license to the board are pursued aggressively.

Nopers, I don't know. I do know that several folks have to take the test more than once, which, in my mind is testament to why our industry is in trouble. 

We have wonderfully skilled craftsmen that don't know enough about to the laws and business to be able to answer 35 questions correctly, yet want to be able to pull permits legally that require them to have a contractors license.

I think the NAHB says that something upwards of 85% of new contractors go bust in the first 5 years of business.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Oklahoma is racing towards the precipice as fast as the political Oklahoma Home Builders Association can lobby and push for it. I am most positive the OHA will promote the most BS path to licensing and promoting $600 a year membership in the OHA as the way to mecca. Now I know the fees are tax deductable, and I know the drunken parties (_oops, continuing education_) are more then fun, but I can't stand to belone to an organization with a local chapter headed by a hack that has *never built one single home...not one!* What do you guys suppose this creep will teach me/assist me/demonstrate to me/enhance my skills about home construction? I don't want to learn what he knows about siding and roofing and how to hire illegals and other good stuff.

One thing for sure...his path to having the license will be easier then mine because he is a member/local president of the OHA, and I am a renegade that has refused to even join.

I have read a lot of the questions from contractors tests, and I have to say, lots of them aren't really something I would consider important...but oh well....we will take it, pay the fees, pass the costs along to protect J Q Public from the evils in the contruction world.


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

joasis said:


> Oklahoma is racing towards the precipice as fast as the political Oklahoma Home Builders Association can lobby and push for it. I am most positive the OHA will promote the most BS path to licensing and promoting $600 a year membership in the OHA as the way to mecca. Now I know the fees are tax deductable, and I know the drunken parties (_oops, continuing education_) are more then fun, but I can't stand to belone to an organization with a local chapter headed by a hack that has *never built one single home...not one!* What do you guys suppose this creep will teach me/assist me/demonstrate to me/enhance my skills about home construction? I don't want to learn what he knows about siding and roofing and how to hire illegals and other good stuff.
> quote]
> 
> Exactly. The PBA (Pennsylvania Builders Association) is also pushing contractor registration and licensing legislation. They call it the "*Home Owners Protection Act".* I have not read one story out of PA where contractors are running around screwing home owners. I'm sure there are a some, but nothing on the scale to warrant legislation.
> ...


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