# Prevailing Wage: Why & How did it come to be?



## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

eastend said:


> Heritage- do they even have Davis Bacon in Canada, or something like it?
> Are you paying your workers $60 per hr? Are there no skilled carpenters at $25, $35, $40 per hour?


The mayoral elections are coming up and one of the candidates is fighting for prevailing wages much like the Davis Bacon concept you guys have going on. So right now...no.

I made no mention of how much I'm paying my carpenters. There's a big difference between $25/hr and $40. Nobody I know of is getting paid $60/hr for residential (carpenter).

I start my guys @ $30. That's SKILLED. We're not talking ass't carps. Then we have WSIB, tool/truck allowance + bonuses. Which means a carp. I pay $30 to, the client has to get charged $35 JUST to cover costs (and those are just HARD costs). My lead gets paid $40/hr.

There's still CPP (Canadian Pension Plan) +EI (Employment Insurance), and our taxes.

The guy making $30 is taking home close to $20. I don't know who in their right mind would work for less than that, doing what we do.

So Union is better, I think Red Seal Certified Carps. in the Union are making 40/ish before deducts + Union dues. 

Why can't the Gov't do the same?


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

eastend said:


> Heritage- do they even have Davis Bacon in Canada, or something like it?
> Are you paying your workers $60 per hr? Are there no skilled carpenters at $25, $35, $40 per hour?


I told you this in a PM. Davis Bacon wages include any benefits that employers pay. So say a nonunion private sector company pays it's journey level employees 30 dollars a hour and has a benefit package of say 8 dollars a hour. Includes insurance and 401k. And they turn in the survey. Ok now there is no union shop in the state or a week one. Now there is other variables but for this sake this is the example.
Now the DB wage is set at 38 dollars a hour for any company that does DB jobs.


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## eastend (Jan 24, 2006)

you're making my point. Here in NY, while we pay $22 plus bennies, the gov't under Davis Bacon, makes us pay $53/hr! ( this is for laborer rates not even carpenter rates!)
They are perfectly fine with our work, we do a great job, everyone is happy - but the taxpayer foots the bill for double what they would pay without D/B.
If the prevailing wage was let's say,$28 or $32- it wouldn't be so onerous; but it still doesn't make sense to me how they really determine what a true prevailing wage is. And it always seems to come back to inflated union wages.


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## rshackleford (Jul 2, 2007)

davis bacon costs the tax payer a lot of money. there is no reason that the rates need to be so high. i have always felt it was the unions that drove the law and the rates which further fuels my dislike for unions.


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

a local contractor bid on some concrete work for the Highways department under a provincial 'fair wage' contract and got the work awarded. I don't know what the carpenters received, but the labourer rate went from $12/hr to $28 for that contract.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Yes you pay 22 with benies but you are not the only company in NY. Which to me seems pretty low. That sounds like tract housing wages around here. I have a buddy that works over on Long Island around Montauk. I know he makes more than what you pay. Just saying you know you aren't the only one. 

Any I want to know what the F does a wood restorer know about heavy construction? You don't sound like you know to much or you wouldn't sell yourself so cheap. If some company wanted me to frame a house for 15 an hour or do heavy construction for 15. I wouldn't do heavy const. That is because I have been there and done that. 

Any way I don't care about NY that place is corrupt and deserves to go broke. That is all I have to say about that. It's another loser blue state that got to big for it's britches.
BTW union labors and different than the 12 dollar an hour labors you hire to do landscape or pick up trash or carpenter tend. Those guys don't do that stuff. LOL again that is experience not talking out the ass. Ahem


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## eastend (Jan 24, 2006)

why would you say DB only concerns heavy construction? We've done 4 prevailing wage commercial projects- 3 in NYC and 1 in CT ( btw, agree about NY) All these project were wood refinishing.
My point was and is why should the taxpayer pay inflated wages for work that can be done by a fully competent, legit company.
Would you like to pay double for the same work?
And my pay scale is on the better side of competitive for the type of work we do in our market. I cannot speak for carpentry, or demo, or excavating, or any other trade- but I do know from real experience what it meant for what we do.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I think we should get the f#%*@%$ gov out of it all together and let the contractors duke it out. 

But I'm a capitalist I guess, I'm wired differently.

Mike


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## K_Tile (Feb 10, 2006)

Prevailing wages is paid for any project that is funded by federal or state funded money. For the exception, in my state, schools! Schools used to be prevailing wage until the realized they became to expensive to build and no levies were getting passed.

PW work is basically due to the unions. Unions can not compete with non union shops so they have tried to equal the bidding tables. The union does have a competitive advantage since they have an apprentice program and can pay less money for apprentices (half the $). Non union shops are not eligible for apprentice programs and have to pay "anyone who touches a tool" full wage. Depending on the county the job is located our guys make $42.00/hr. Thats $42/hr "cash" to employee not company OH&P.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

You guys are stupid. 
The union has no advantage in PW work other than the apprenticeship program. And I will tell you that the union is scared of a non-union state certified apprenticeship program. The work goes to the lowest qualified bidder. And no the cost of a 1st period apprentice isn't 50% close but it's 60% of journey level and a company can't just load up on 1st period apprentices. They don't know much and advance every 6 months.

BTW you know why it goes to the lowest qualified bidder? Because the government doesn't want hacks and fly by nights going broke in the process of building. And if it does happen the government will alway pay out more money to finish the job. Which in turn cost's the tax payers more money.

My only regret joining a union was I took a pay cut. :laughing:


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

eastend said:


> I have read that the law was enacted to prevent Southern Black construction workers from coming to NY and underbidding the labor force there.( esp the unions) There's probably some merit to that. The argument that it helps avoid "shoddy" work is ridiculous; any firm can pay prevailing wage and still perform shoddy work - there is no control on the quality of workmanship in Davis Bacon- just that employees must be paid an artificially high wage that doesn't represent current market conditions.
> And it's really the taxpayers who ultimately foot the bill; paying much higher wages and thus higher costs for gov't construction jobs than they may really need to.
> I think it is a law which has outlived any possible usefulness.


 :no:


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

Heritage said:


> The mayoral elections are coming up and one of the candidates is fighting for prevailing wages much like the Davis Bacon concept you guys have going on. So right now...no.
> 
> I made no mention of how much I'm paying my carpenters. There's a big difference between $25/hr and $40. Nobody I know of is getting paid $60/hr for residential (carpenter).
> 
> ...


 :clap::notworthy:thumbup:


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

Kgmz said:


> Thi big thing everyone is forgetting here is, the Unions.
> 
> Prevailing wage is pretty much the same as a Union wage in most states.
> 
> ...


 And that is why the city is still a mess.


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## jegolopolli (Aug 24, 2010)

Interesting discussion.

My company bids prevailing wage jobs and we compete against the union shops. Its not even worth it for us because it costs so too much in labor, but we still try for them because we need the work.

I dont buy into the thinking that you can get quality work for half the price, but it does depend on the trade I guess and the company.

As far as the wage goes I think that for any trade it is a fair wage for the work being performed. Here in Illinois minimum wage is $8.25/hr, which isnt anything. Prevailing wage for a glazier is $38.00/hr. So its 4x higher than minimum wage, sounds like a lot, but it really isnt. Funny thing is I dont even make half of what a union glazier makes but I can probably do more than they can. There is a union shop that actually comes to us to get glass cut from time to time becasue no one over there knows how to do it, its pretty sad for them actually. But on the same token I used to be a union carpenter (wish I still was/am trying to get back in) and I see some horrid work done by a lot of these non-union shops on the jobs I go onto now and the unon shops would not let half of this stuff fly. 

Think about the amount of time it takes to acquire the skills necessary to do your job. Key word is skills, we all work in a skilled trade and most of us bust our balls, body and mind to get the job done. Not only that, think about what the company you are working for (if you are not an owner) is making off of your labor. What about thatguy who started working minumum wage at Walmart who is now making $12/hr? Now imagine paying a carpenter $15/hr to do one of the many skills he possesses to work for you. Also imagine yourself working for that amount of money. 

Prevailing wage doesnt affect the small guy too often, and around here most public jobs require union shops. Most of the jobs requiring prevailing wage are pretty extensive projects where you need at least tens of thousands of dollars to even consider trying to do the job and make any money on it. It doesnt bother me any, maybe its becasue there is a clear line around here with the major union force in the area.

I am not a super pro-union or pro-prevailing wage guy but I do think that the wage is worht it. By not paying a good wage the work being performed is being greatly devalued.


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## cartnj (Oct 21, 2010)

eastend said:


> If the prevailing wage was let's say,$28 or $32- it wouldn't be so onerous; but it still doesn't make sense to me how they really determine what a true prevailing wage is. And it always seems to come back to inflated union wages.


AGREED
I work for a medium size Concrete Construction Company here in NY and NJ. We carried 75 union guys on our payroll up to about 1.5 years ago when things got real slow and we cut back. The Cement finishers make about $61 per hour and the Laborers make $50 per hour Union wages. 

Fast forward today and those same cement finishers are begging to come back to work for $25.00 per hour and the laborers are working for $17.00 including benefits. This is for large commercial construction projects in NJ and NY. These are highly skilled Union Construction workers.

My point is, the prevailing wage and the Union Wage are more than double what a reasonable rate is in this part of the Country. And is one of the biggest reason why we have little work here and also why are big State jobs are stopping or not even starting.


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