# How would you handle this situation



## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

I met a HO few weeks ago about finishing his attic. I gave him my Architect, they both met, and everything went well according to the HO.
Next day I receive email from the HO asking me for a price. I told him I need the drawings to do material take-off and see the design criteria so I could provide him with an accurate proposal to complete his project. This is the email I get back:

_Greg,_

_FYI, I have not hired your Architect to do the drawing, I understand that you need an Architectural drawing to make an accurate estimate, however, I need a rough estimate to see if I can afford the project and to decide on the scale of the project. Also, cost is one of the many factors to help me to pick a contractor._
_Honestly, other contractors have given me rough estimates and the range is quite wide. I know that you have good reputation and are very knowledgeable in your trade. I would hate to miss out on a reasonable and good contractor. _

This is what I wrote back:

_Hello HO,_

_I read your email, and I understand the cost is your main concern, but I never heard a reputable contractor give a homeowner a rough estimate from the top of his head. I find that being unprofessional or in any way conforming to the standards of a profession and ethical code of conduct._

_At this time I appreciate you considered my company as your remodeling contractor and after careful consideration, I respectfully decline the opportunity to bid on your project._
_I wanted you to know as soon as possible, to help you in your further decision-making process._

_I wish you luck with your project and I hope it will turns out to be a beautiful and useful addition to your home._

_Best wishes,_

_Greg_

What would you do in a situation like this...any thoughts?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Great reply Greg. Putting myself in the shoes of a homeowner, a reply like that would make me feel as though I lost out. I'll bet you get a call back on that one when they do a little more research.:thumbsup:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

rselectric1 said:


> Great reply Greg. Putting myself in the shoes of a homeowner, a reply like that would make me feel as though I lost out. I'll bet you get a call back on that one when they do a little more research.:thumbsup:



x2!


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Wow Greg, you took a stand.:laughing:

I would have probably taken a softer approach if I wanted the work. I would have tried once again to educate him as to the variables involved and hinted around on the square footage price ranges that you have dealt with in the past. Then tossed the ball back in his court to make some decisions. 

I commend you for standing tall and calling it as you saw it though. You must have not liked how the guy was handling himself to toss the whole thing aside though, huh?


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

I hope fir a good outcome.


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

Not sure why you would drop him so quickly. Help him understand they process. Maybe you could sit with him for an hour and find out what his vision is, and use that to give him a budgetary estimate...not a quote, but a rough idea of the type of design and the most suitable materials for his vision. Than after he recovers from his heart attack, you start the project. He wants YOU to be his builder, but he doesn't know if his project will cost 10k or 200k. If you sit with him for a while, you should get a feel for what you're up against.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

Gus Dering said:


> Wow Greg, you took a stand.:laughing:
> 
> I would have probably taken a softer approach if I wanted the work. I would have tried once again to educate him as to the variables involved and hinted around on the square footage price ranges that you have dealt with in the past. Then tossed the ball back in his court to make some decisions.
> 
> I commend you for standing tall and calling it as you saw it though. You must have not liked how the guy was handling himself to toss the whole thing aside though, huh?


You almost sound like a lawyer


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> Great reply Greg. Putting myself in the shoes of a homeowner, a reply like that would make me feel as though I lost out. I'll bet you get a call back on that one when they do a little more research.:thumbsup:


Like rs & angus said great response.


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

I'm not so sure it was a great response. it kinda sounds like a pissed off knee-jerk reaction. The guy sounds like he could be a potentially good client who is willing to pay more to have it done right, and you tossed him aside as if those clients are easy to come by.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

knucklehead said:


> You almost sound like a lawyer


If you find yourself in need of a good lawyer, don't hire the guy that sounds like me.:no:
Heck, I can't even get picked for jury duty when I want to serve.:laughing:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Gus Dering said:


> Wow Greg, you took a stand.:laughing:
> 
> I would have probably taken a softer approach if I wanted the work. I would have tried once again to educate him as to the variables involved and hinted around on the square footage price ranges that you have dealt with in the past. Then tossed the ball back in his court to make some decisions.
> 
> I commend you for standing tall and calling it as you saw it though. You must have not liked how the guy was handling himself to toss the whole thing aside though, huh?


I did Gus, I explaind to him twice, I cannot give him a price with nothing to go on, he didn't want to hear...so I rather eat bread then a steak if you know what I mean in a situation like this.


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

GOOD RESPONSE. however, maybe the project didn't need an architect in the first place. It's just a finished attic. You probably could've designed it yourself w/ HO. If you're not interested in that route, your response was EXCELLENT, aside from questionable grammar.

Maybe the idea of hiring an architect sounded daunting to them. Also, it seems none of the other contractors suggested an architect, maybe you need to loosen up your approach. By the way, I'm saying all this in the most respectful and friendly way.


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

GOOD RESPONSE. however, maybe the project didn't need an architect in the first place. It's just a finished attic. You probably could've designed it yourself w/ HO. If you're not interested in that route, your response was EXCELLENT, aside from questionable grammar.

Maybe the idea of hiring an architect sounded daunting to them. Also, it seems none of the other contractors suggested an architect, maybe you need to loosen up your approach. By the way, I'm saying all this in the most respectful and friendly way. :thumbsup:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I think when the guy said that cost would be a big consideration on his pick for contractor it was a good choice to bow out.


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## rotarex (Mar 31, 2008)

Love the reply, for this reason you will get the job


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

greg24k said:


> I did Gus, I explaind to him twice, I cannot give him a price with nothing to go on, he didn't want to hear...so I rather eat bread then a steak if you know what I mean in a situation like this.


Are you against the use of the "budgetary range" approach to these situations?
Alot of people just need to hear that the top end is not beyond their worst nightmare price. You know how to coax a job along, I'm sure. 
There must be a gut feeling that you are listening to here to take such a drastic stand so early in the process.


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

I need to learn to read. For whatever reason, I missed the finished attic part and was somehow thinking this was a deck project. Anywho, I still think you could have worked with this guy and came up with a solution. Just my 2cents.....or 12 cents by now.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

Gus Dering said:


> If you find yourself in need of a good lawyer, don't hire the guy that sounds like me.:no:
> Heck, I can't even get picked for jury duty when I want to serve.:laughing:


I did say "almost"

Oh, if somebody said you were a stupid jackass, would that be grounds for an physical confrontation?


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

send_it_all said:


> Not sure why you would drop him so quickly. Help him understand they process. Maybe you could sit with him for an hour and find out what his vision is, and use that to give him a budgetary estimate...not a quote, but a rough idea of the type of design and the most suitable materials for his vision. Than after he recovers from his heart attack, you start the project. He wants YOU to be his builder, but he doesn't know if his project will cost 10k or 200k. If you sit with him for a while, you should get a feel for what you're up against.


It wasn't quickly, there was a few explanations. If you think me telling him between 20-35k would help him make up his mind...I doubt that and when I would get the drawings and give him the accurate proposal and it would be 30k instead of 25k....He will say but you said 20K...seen this 100 times...
This will cost me more time and money and it will get me nowhere.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

greg24k said:


> I did Gus, I explaind to him twice, I cannot give him a price with nothing to go on, he didn't want to hear...so I rather eat bread then a steak if you know what I mean in a situation like this.


WOOT!

If a customer, potential or otherwise, wants to start telling _me _how to compose an estimate, why do they need me at all? They are talking to a professional. They are getting professional advice. If they choose to not follow that advice, I (or anyone else) has the option to walk away.

If you take on a job like that, what's next? Them telling _you_ how to frame a wall?

I admire a man who is willing to run his business with more than dollar signs.

If you choose to do otherwise, that's fine. Greg asked for thoughts, I gave mine. No harm or foul to anyone that would do something different.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I'm with Greg on this one. Explained it to the HO twice, no drawings, no price. If the HO won't get drawings (assuming they are needed) then he's not serious yet.

I get the feeling they would have been 'high maintainance' customers.

Sometimes it's better to let it go. I liked the response Greg. :thumbsup:


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*Good!*

Give an estimate based on nothing-hmmmmmm,,,,, interesting concept:whistling
Good responce Greg-:thumbsup:
Brian


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

You nailed it Greg - to many red flags as others pointed out


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Gus Dering said:


> Are you against the use of the "budgetary range" approach to these situations?
> Alot of people just need to hear that the top end is not beyond their worst nightmare price. You know how to coax a job along, I'm sure.
> There must be a gut feeling that you are listening to here to take such a drastic stand so early in the process.


No, I don't have a problem with "budgetary range" approach, but after he met with an Architect, the bathroom was added, and who knows what else. I cannot give him a price with out knowing or seeing what they came up with. Now I have to open ceilings bellow, bring in water, sewer,etc. and I explained that to him...and from his last email I felt he was getting a bit out of line...so I did what I did.


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

you couldn't just throw out some square footage costs for the project. He didn't seem to be looking for a hard number, just and idea. Say depending on what you do, could be $175-$350 sq. ft. Of course a range like that doesn't really answer his question. Also, proof read your grammar before you send letters off to clients. I couldn't really follow one of your sentences.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

d-rock said:


> GOOD RESPONSE. however, maybe the project didn't need an architect in the first place. It's just a finished attic. You probably could've designed it yourself w/ HO. If you're not interested in that route, your response was EXCELLENT, aside from questionable grammar.
> 
> Maybe the idea of hiring an architect sounded daunting to them. Also, it seems none of the other contractors suggested an architect, maybe you need to loosen up your approach. By the way, I'm saying all this in the most respectful and friendly way. :thumbsup:


In that town you need an architect to screw a lightbulb...Welcome to NJ :thumbsup:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

I still say an outstanding and professional response.
Greg has been in this business for awhile. Based on his past experience and sound judgment he respectfully declined to bid on the job. How does one just pull numbers out of the air to give a rough estimate. Yea a small job is one thing, but an attic finish out. What are the other bidders basing their quotes on, no plans or specs equals no bid. What takes some folks time to learn is that some jobs just aren't worth doing.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

griz said:


> I still say an outstanding and professional response.
> Greg has been in this business for awhile. Based on his past experience and sound judgment he respectfully declined to bid on the job. How does one just pull numbers out of the air to give a rough estimate. Yea a small job is one thing, but an attic finish out. What are the other bidders basing their quotes on, no plans or specs equals no bid. What takes some folks time to learn is that some jobs just aren't worth doing.


Thanks Griz, I never turn down work, and my reputation speaks for itself and this HO knows that. But sometimes you have that little feeling in your gut, and after a few simple conversations with a HO, he removes all the doubts, so walking away is the best thing you can do... and doing that, never bit me on my A$$ yet in almost 30 yrs in business.


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

Leo G said:


> I think when the guy said that cost would be a big consideration on his pick for contractor it was a good choice to bow out.


 Why would you say that ? To me, that sounds as if you're assuming you're gonna be the high number straight away. The guy wants a good price for a product he wants to purchase. Just like if you were gonna buy a new car, wouldn't you look for the best deal? True, the guy may be tire kicking or just looking for cheap for cheap's sake, but if a HO is serious about doing work why not give an honest bid?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

greg24k said:


> Thanks Griz, I never turn down work, and my reputation speaks for itself and this HO knows that. But sometimes you have that little feeling in your gut, and after a few simple conversations with a HO, he removes all the doubts, so walking away is the best thing you can do... and doing that, never bit me on my A$$ yet in almost 30 yrs in business.


Exactly what I'm talking about!!


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

d-rock said:


> HO is serious about doing work why not give an honest bid?


Greg had nothing to bid ON. Us remodelers run into this all the time. This is why it's important to ask (however akward) what their budget is on the project.

In order to get this number, you have to first build credibility with the client. Then, once you see where they are coming from, you have a better idea of if they are serious about the project as well as if you should be recommending Cherry cabinets or Maple, VCT or tile, moving walls around or not, Quartz or Granite tops, custom or box cabinets, a silgranite blanco undermount sink or a cheap stainless self rimmer, new lighting or fixture replacement, etc.

I always liken the process to the client as a puzzle that needs to be put together, but I need to know where they stand first. From there the process begins.

An off the cuff "bid" without seeing any type of plans or feasibility of their ideas and if it would work would be just blatently irresponsible.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

d-rock said:


> Why would you say that ? To me, that sounds as if you're assuming you're gonna be the high number straight away. The guy wants a good price for a product he wants to purchase. Just like if you were gonna buy a new car, wouldn't you look for the best deal? True, the guy may be tire kicking or just looking for cheap for cheap's sake, but if a HO is serious about doing work why not give an honest bid?


Pretty much, when a customer says they are going to pick the contractor based on price it is a red flag. Someone telling me that they will be going for the low price is not a customer I want to work for.

Plus asking to bid on something without plans is just asking for trouble. You are going to get a lot of "Well you said it was going to be thins much, why are you som much higher than what you originally said the price would be"

And now you have just turned into a dishonest contractor. I don't give ballpark figure. Just asking for trouble.


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

Leo G said:


> Pretty much, when a customer says they are going to pick the contractor based on price it is a red flag. Someone telling my that they will be going for the low price is not a customer I want to work for.
> 
> Plus asking to bid on something without plans is just asking for trouble. You are going to get a lot of "Well you said it was going to be thins much, why are you som much higher than what you originally said the price would be"
> 
> And now you have just turned into a dishonest contractor. I don't give ballpark figure. Just asking for trouble.


 My last post was not saying he should bid w/o plans, or solid details. The question was actually unrelated to his post.(maybe better for diff. topic)I was just wondering why you would walk away from a frugal client, instead of just bidding with an eye on supplying the best value for his buck.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Leo G said:


> Pretty much, when a customer says they are going to pick the contractor based on price it is a red flag. Someone telling my that they will be going for the low price is not a customer I want to work for.
> 
> Plus asking to bid on something without plans is just asking for trouble. You are going to get a lot of "Well you said it was going to be thins much, why are you som much higher than what you originally said the price would be"
> 
> And now you have just turned into a dishonest contractor. I don't give ballpark figure. Just asking for trouble.


I agree with you 100% Leo...:thumbsup: His concern was low price and not the work quality...and giving him a price between 1-10 would only start the cat and mouse game.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

d-rock said:


> My last post was not saying he should bid w/o plans, or solid details. The question was actually unrelated to his post.(maybe better for diff. topic)I was just wondering why you would walk away from a frugal client, instead of just bidding with an eye on supplying the best value for his buck.


D-rock...what do you base your bid on? What is the meaning of "supplying the best value for his buck"? What do you base that value on?


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> Greg had nothing to bid ON. Us remodelers run into this all the time. This is why it's important to ask (however akward) what their budget is on the project.
> 
> In order to get this number, you have to first build credibility with the client. Then, once you see where they are coming from, you have a better idea of if they are serious about the project as well as if you should be recommending Cherry cabinets or Maple, VCT or tile, moving walls around or not, Quartz or Granite tops, custom or box cabinets, a silgranite blanco undermount sink or a cheap stainless self rimmer, new lighting or fixture replacement, etc.
> 
> ...


 No...I was not saying he (greg) should give an honest bid on no plans or no details, I meant 'in general' about bidding for a cheap client. Why walk away from a potential job , before you even submit ur #? How can u instantly assume all the other guys will be lower ?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

d-rock said:


> My last post was not saying he should bid w/o plans, or solid details. The question was actually unrelated to his post.(maybe better for diff. topic)I was just wondering why you would walk away from a frugal client, instead of just bidding with an eye on supplying the best value for his buck.


Again, what was he supposed to "bid" ON?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

rselectric1 said:


> Again, what was he supposed to "bid" ON?


Would this be an appropriate use of tree fiddy?


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

greg24k said:


> D-rock...what do you base your bid on? What is the meaning of "supplying the best value for his buck"? What do you base that value on?


 I think the statement 'best value for the buck' is self explanatory. Instead of assuming you will instantly be the highest and get shot down. Maybe your #'s are in the middle but, as in your case, the guy knows ur reputation so he chooses you. Or you give him the best proposal with the best service and quality.


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## atrawlings (Feb 9, 2009)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a contractor picking their client just as there is nothing wrong with a homeowner picking their contractor.

A red flag is a red flag and a gut check is a gut check.

Well done Greg. Move on and don't look back.:notworthy


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

d-rock said:


> I think the statement 'best value for the buck' is self explanatory. Instead of assuming you will instantly be the highest and get shot down. Maybe your #'s are in the middle but, as in your case, the guy knows ur reputation so he chooses you. Or you give him the best proposal with the best service and quality.


But you have to have something to base the proposal on.


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> Again, what was he supposed to "bid" ON?


RS..are you reading my words? I never said Greg should bid on this specific project with no details and no plans.. The word 'bid' was used as a general broad term.


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

griz said:


> But you have to have something to base the proposal on.


 see above.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

When faced with this I tell the HO - two million dollars and I'll give you back the change.

They usually understand that there is no way I can give you a price unless I know what I am pricing. DUUUhhhhh.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

d-rock said:


> No...I was not saying he (greg) should give an honest bid on no plans or no details, I meant 'in general' about bidding for a cheap client. Why walk away from a potential job , before you even submit ur #? How can u instantly assume all the other guys will be lower ?


Because "other" guys WILL be lower. Especially without any specs to bid. They're called hacks around here. They rope the clients in with false promises, (and off the cuff bids) and have no problem charging clients more than double what they "bid" once they get the specs. How these guys can sleep at night baffles me, but I'm sure they're richer than me.

I do business like Greg. First get a plan, then bid apples to apples on every detail once the HO decides what they really want. 

From there, you make concessions, and the HO will decide which bells and whistles can be omitted.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

You did good Greg. I turn down about 2 a month.


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

:wallbash:
never mind...you guys are missing my point COMPLETELY. seems ur more interested in having a pissing match (which is actually fun). 

I'm not advocating for pricing work without details. I'm simply asking why would you walk away from potential client before you submit a bid that is based on plans and specs, just b/c you think he may be cheap ? You never know, your # may be lowest, or he may pick you b/c he liked your pitch, b/c he felt he was getting the best bang for his buck..:surrender:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

katoman said:


> When faced with this I tell the HO - two million dollars and I'll give you back the change.
> 
> They usually understand that there is no way I can give you a price unless I know what I am pricing. DUUUhhhhh.


I will remember that...:thumbsup:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Because it sounds like the client isn't planning on making this easy. He is doing it backwards. You don't need a n architects plan but you do need something specific that can be compared to apples to apples. He wants to get a price and then find out what the details are. Wrong way to do it. It sounds like you are willing to put up with a lot more bull**** from a client that Greg is. After you have been in business for a while you learn that some jobs/clients aren't worth the price/hassle.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

d-rock said:


> :wallbash:
> never mind...you guys are missing my point COMPLETELY. seems ur more interested in having a pissing match (which is actually fun).
> 
> I'm not advocating for pricing work without details. I'm simply asking why would you walk away from potential client before you submit a bid that is based on plans and specs, just b/c you think he may be cheap ? You never know, your # may be lowest, or he may pick you b/c he liked your pitch, b/c he felt he was getting the best bang for his buck..:surrender:


D-rock...frankly speaking I don't even know what to tell you, other then, there's principles and ethics, and I don't break them for anyone... :thumbsup:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Leo G said:


> Because it sounds like the client isn't planning on making this easy. He is doing it backwards. You don't need a n architects plan but you do need something specific that can be compared to apples to apples. He wants to get a price and then find out what the details are. Wrong way to do it. It sounds like you are willing to put up with a lot more bull**** from a client that Greg is. After you have been in business for a while you learn that some jobs/clients aren't worth the price/hassle.


You right Leo, in this business you learn allot over a long period of time, not only being good at what we do, also being good at reading people or foresee certain situations before they hit you hard...and being in this business almost 30 years and each time I walked away for what ever reason it was, was the best thing I did...and not only because of a bad vibe from a client, but some huge business decisions as well...


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

Sometimes I feel that you guys think the homeowner is supposed to provide a service to you. Thats your job. I know all of you would willingly pay out 5k no questions to find out how much it would cost to remodel your upstairs. They want a price, then details? If you didnt know what details cost that would be really difficult. Its easy for us we do it everyday. I get ballparks from my subs al the time sans plans. Dont get me wrong I really do respect and have learned alot from Leo G and Gmod and others in this thread. 

What do I think would be appropriate? Draw out a scope of work, then give a price for YOUR scope and how you would do it. They sounded like they arent frivalous with their money so shoot them. If I was them I would just be depressed with your answer. Sounds like you just let your pride lose you a possible 40k. Congrats.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

greg24k said:


> Thanks Griz, I never turn down work, and my reputation speaks for itself and this HO knows that. *But sometimes you have that little feeling in your gut*, and after a few simple conversations with a HO, he removes all the doubts, so walking away is the best thing you can do... and doing that, never bit me on my A$$ yet in almost 30 yrs in business.



I knew it! Why didn't you just say so in the first place.:laughing:

That is our only line of defense sometimes. Trust your intuition always.:thumbsup:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

BattleRidge said:


> Sometimes I feel that you guys think the homeowner is supposed to provide a service to you. Thats your job. I know all of you would willingly pay out 5k no questions to find out how much it would cost to remodel your upstairs. They want a price, then details? If you didnt know what details cost that would be really difficult. Its easy for us we do it everyday. I get ballparks from my subs al the time sans plans. Dont get me wrong I really do respect and have learned alot from Leo G and Gmod and others in this thread.
> 
> What do I think would be appropriate? Draw out a scope of work, then give a price for YOUR scope and how you would do it. They sounded like they arent frivalous with their money so shoot them. If I was them I would just be depressed with your answer. Sounds like you just let your pride lose you a possible 40k. Congrats.




But they want the free ride at your expense. Doing a project requires money. Even if you don't end up doing the project it may cost you something to find out that you don't want to do it. Yes, you will be getting the job if your price is right. But it costs you money to do this. If you don't feel that the outcome will be in your favor why would you pursue it?

Yes, it is a two way street. He has to provide the concept that they are trying to have as the outcome of the project. If they don't have the design then how do you bid it for them? Do you spend your time and design something for them for free? You realize the designers get big bucks, right?

I agree you should have to provide a service, but it doesn't mean you need to give it away for free.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I had a customer want me to bid on a really big addition.Double the size of the house.He only had conceptual/floor plan drawings nothing structural.He wanted a number too.I told him there was no way I could give him anything better than a guestimate and I don't like to do that.I mean it could have been anywhere from 80k to 300k.What good would that have done him?
I still have the plans somewhere....


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

I dont thnk its that much of a risk or cost to put more effort forth then saying, since you dont have plans you dont qualify to have me work for you. I understand what you are saying but judging from these emails its seemed pretty short and semi rude.


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

I think you did right. You know you did too. Sorry you had to waste the time on it though.. better luck next time.


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## App-ironworks (Sep 9, 2009)

Leo G said:


> Pretty much, when a customer says they are going to pick the contractor based on price it is a red flag. Someone telling me that they will be going for the low price is not a customer I want to work for.
> 
> Plus asking to bid on something without plans is just asking for trouble. You are going to get a lot of "Well you said it was going to be thins much, why are you som much higher than what you originally said the price would be"
> 
> And now you have just turned into a dishonest contractor. *I don't give* *ballpark figure.* Just asking for trouble.


One steel salesman/estimator (with 50 years experience) , that I've had the good fortune to work with and learn from, has a standard reply when someone asks him for a ballpark number.

"You want Dodger stadium or the sandlot down the road next to the projects?"


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## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

Sounds like you did not want the job in the first place
There is no substitute for standing their and talking to someone 

Lets say you did want the project

I like to give an estimate on something like 
this before drawings are started

After I talk to customer He/she tells me what they would like 
Then they tell me their budget
I now have all the tools to make them happy
Estimate includes
1 bath
1 bed
1 dormer
and so on
Total x

Anything not listed here is not included in price
now the ho and arc have a scope of work that includes budget
anything they add they know will cost more
If I do not do this, and leave the ho and arc alone together
A 30,000 attic reno turns into a 150,000 second story addition


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## Five Star (Jan 15, 2009)

I think you handled it right!! 

:clap:to you!!!

if other contractors would stand their ground like Greg, their wouldnt be half as much bidding wars and our prices would HOLD UP THROUGH THIS RECCESSION!! 

Do you see lawyers,doctors,mechanics,insurance,health insurance,Etc companys dropping their prices or out bidding one another to help a customer out!!

i had a plumber quote me $1100 to put 2 new shut offs and hook up a basic sink and dish washer in a small apartment kitchen!! :laughing: and the guy was telling me hes doing me a favor!! @ $185hr + materials 

Good post Greg And i commend you for taking a stance!!:thumbsup:


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*D-rock,,,,*



d-rock said:


> :wallbash:
> never mind...you guys are missing my point COMPLETELY. seems ur more interested in having a pissing match (which is actually fun).
> 
> I'm not advocating for pricing work without details. I'm simply asking why would you walk away from potential client before you submit a bid that is based on plans and specs, just b/c you think he may be cheap ? You never know, your # may be lowest, or he may pick you b/c he liked your pitch, b/c he felt he was getting the best bang for his buck..:surrender:


"IMPO"-------If the HO is serious about getting the project running- you need "Prints",,,stamped- something to go on- there is nothing to base a bid on here and I personally feel he is price shopping and his system of getting bids is totally dysfunctional at best. BP's first- The architect can tell the client a ball park figure of the project -if he/she- knows what they are doing. You could go back and forth on this for someone of this mindset,waisting your valuable time for absolutely nothing in the end,,,,,leason learned? 
prints,
prints,
prints,:thumbsup:
Brian


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

If you've got plenty of other work available, I'd say you handled it right. 

From the homeowners side, the first step is to develope a concept of what's possible to do, complete with options. Archies typically can't do that. I'd want to weed out the contractors that don't have a feel for the project. I'd give examples of jobs done in the past, what they entailed, & what the delivered price was. From that they have a basis as to whether they have confidence in you. This much should be available without too much work on your part.
The first step is to sell yourself. 
Joe


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## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> "IMPO"-------If the HO is serious about getting the project running- you need "Prints",,,stamped- something to go on- there is nothing to base a bid on here and I personally feel he is price shopping and his system of getting bids is totally dysfunctional at best. BP's first- -if he/she- knows what they are doingThe architect can tell the client a ball park figure of the project . You could go back and forth on this for someone of this mindset,waisting your valuable time for absolutely nothing in the end,,,,,leason learned?
> prints,
> prints,
> prints,:thumbsup:
> Brian


So an architect that does not deal with construction pricing every day
can come up with a ballpark figure.
A contractor that deals with contruction and pricing every day can not?


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## wyoming 1 (May 7, 2008)

Everyone else has an opinionso here is mine. I may have handeled it a little different. I kinda get the feeling your HO as just looking for a rough number to see if it was even in his budget. Most ho's have no clue about cost, lets say this guy only had $15,000 and you gave him the ball park (with stated if is tough to give an estimate with out specifics) of somewhere between $25 to $40,000 depending on what choices you make ect. The ho might say " well thats more than I wanted to spend (because he only has $15000 to spend) but how about we do a new deck instead"or he might have said " you know I think we are close with those rough numbers." To which I say "Great at this point we need to go ahead and have a set drawings done and a set of specs. so I can give you a more detailed est." 
The bigest factor invloved in this is the fact that none of us where there and after you have been doing this for a while you develope that gut feeling and if it says run you run. I kinda get the feeling you might be second guessing yourself? I always say go with YOUR gut instinct.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

wyoming 1 said:


> Everyone else has an opinionso here is mine. I may have handeled it a little different. I kinda get the feeling your HO as just looking for a rough number to see if it was even in his budget. Most ho's have no clue about cost, lets say this guy only had $15,000 and you gave him the ball park (with stated if is tough to give an estimate with out specifics) of somewhere between $25 to $40,000 depending on what choices you make ect. The ho might say " well thats more than I wanted to spend (because he only has $15000 to spend) but how about we do a new deck instead"or he might have said " you know I think we are close with those rough numbers." To which I say "Great at this point we need to go ahead and have a set drawings done and a set of specs. so I can give you a more detailed est."
> The bigest factor invloved in this is the fact that none of us where there and after you have been doing this for a while you develope that gut feeling and if it says run you run. I kinda get the feeling you might be second guessing yourself? I always say go with YOUR gut instinct.


What you saying is: _" Start him with the ball park (with stated if is tough to give an estimate with out specifics) of somewhere between $25 to $40,000 depending on what choices you make ect." _
Now what sense will that make? None what so ever... 

Let's look at something...The HO already said _" I will not hire your Architect, but I need a rough price, because other contractors have given me rough estimates and the range is quite wide"_

The way I interpret this: _"I have a s^*t load of prices that don't make any sense to me, I already wasted your Architects time to come out here, and I don't need him, now could you please waste a little more of your time and give me an estimate that will also not make any sense, so I could add that to the pile of estimates I already have on my desk"_

Now hypothetically speaking lets give HO the benefit of the doubt that he has a 40k budget for this job, and you come in at 35k...do you actually think he will say _" thats is great, it leaves me with 5k to upgrade a few things in the bathroom?"_ Or he will say _" gee, you said starting price was around 25k, can we do something basic for that price?"_ Now what, you got a 10k difference? 

Fugghedaboudit, you know,that doing it this way it makes no sense. If you a professional contractor, and you have a great reputation, you cannot be doing this things, because it is a waste of time and time is money. Not only you confuse the HO, you make yourself look like an armature, because everything will come down to the lowest # of your rough estimate and you basically screw yourself.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Gus Dering said:


> I knew it! Why didn't you just say so in the first place.:laughing:
> 
> That is our only line of defense sometimes. Trust your intuition always.:thumbsup:


Gus, I think when you do this long enough, you sense this things from a mile away...:thumbsup: I don't have to tell you that, I'm sure you been there few times yourself.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I have handled it several different ways described in the thread. Every hand needs to be played different as all situations are unique, it all comes down to that gut feeling. And that only comes from experience.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

"It will cost roughly whatever you budget to spend, provided you start with good construction documents and stick to them"


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## Gabuilder (Feb 19, 2010)

Sounds like a tire kicker to me. 

But,(there's always a but, isn't there) I would have asked the customer if they would be willing to spend a few$ to get some preliminary drawings, not full blown, engineered prints. At least then there is a concept to bid on. That way you could see if they are really serious.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> "It will cost roughly whatever you budget to spend, provided you start with good construction documents and stick to them"


It will cost roughly 10% more than you budgeted.

Come on, step into reality :whistling:laughing:


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Leo G said:


> It will cost roughly 70% more than you budgeted.
> 
> Come on, step into reality :whistling:laughing:


there ya go.:whistling


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## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

I started reading the first page of this thread and skipped over the rest so my apologies if it's been said but I don't have a problem with the content of what was said because the contractor has a "feeling" of what to say or do. I think I would have declined or whatever face to face. Email is great way to communicate but I would much rather be there in person. So much of the tone of interaction is lost in the digital world.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Sounds like this guy has never had anything built or remodeled for himself before. And he thinks he is better off making new rules that suit his sense of value. If he sees no value in a good drawing he will regret it later, no doubt. 

I find the best clients are the ones that have been around the block a few times and have been thoroughly burned at least once by some sleeze that had a low number. Now they can fully appreciate all that the good guys bring to the table. Seems to me that until then there is not quite the appreciation for showing up on time with a great product.

This guy may be a good client after he wades through this attic project with no drawings and lowball numbers. Like a fine wine, he will ferment then be worth something.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

greg24k said:


> What would you do in a situation like this...any thoughts?


If I wanted the work, I would have given him an estimate - or at least a range - based on the information I had on hand with the clear caveat that his (HO) choices regarding materials, design, and timing would determine at which end of the range his final cost would be.

It sounds like he wanted to use you from his email, so I don't understand why you are reluctant to give him a range/rough estimate now and revise it later when you get more information regarding design and materials.

In any case, I never would have responded with an email. Email is the WORST way to communicate with people when you are trying to make a sale.

Emails is impersonal and often leads to all sorts of misunderstanding (like these message board posts) as readers often infer all sorts of things that the writer did not intend for all sorts of reasons.

I think your email to him was a bit dismissive and your remark belittling your competition by implying they are not as professional as you are b/c they actually do give estimates also sounds like sour grapes.

You may as well sent back this message: "nm. no longer interested." since that's pretty much how it comes across.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

greg24k said:


> It wasn't quickly, there was a few explanations. *If you think me telling him between 20-35k would help him make up his mind.*.*.I doubt that* and when I would get the drawings and give him the accurate proposal and it would be 30k instead of 25k....*He will say but you said 20K...seen this 100 times.*..
> This will cost me more time and money and it will get me nowhere.


If you are so certain of what the outcome would have been had you gone another route, and that you made the only correct choice, why did you even bother to ask what we thought?


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

greg24k said:


> Fugghedaboudit, *you know,that doing it this way it makes no sense.* If you a professional contractor, and you have a great reputation, you cannot be doing this things, because it is a waste of time and time is money. .


I'm still not sure why you posted this scenario since every person who has offered their advice or presented their alternative approach - AT YOUR REQUEST- has been shut down or dismissed with comments similar to these.

If you know you made the right decision all along, no matter what the approach, did you just post this so we could all applaud how great it was you turned down the HO?


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

I agree, its like you wanted to thank everyone that agrees and tell everyone else to butt of if they didn't. I guess we live in different places. Here remodels are very common with out plans and we usually come up with an estimated hourly figure unless the project is 200k or more. I think people deserve the right to want to get the most for their money.


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## wyoming 1 (May 7, 2008)

My bad Greg24 I misunderstood the title I thought it said "How would you handle this situation"


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Yumpin' Yehosophat, you guys! There is absolutely not enough information in the OP (nor most of those following) upon which to base a resounding yea or nay to Greg's response to the HO. 

It is perfectly reasonable for a HO to want a "ballpark" figure so that he can determine whether it's worth wasting _anyone's_ time in pursuing the project. No way does an experienced contractor need detailed specs from an architect to come up with a rough price range for any given job.

While it's obvious after a review of this thread so far that Greg's radar was in overdrive, perhaps properly so, the fact is that he hasn't really demonstrated the necessity for the response he gave. The fact that he's asking for validation here gives weight to the idea that just maybe he isn't quite so sure of that himself. Nothing wrong with that; we all second-guess ourselves on a regular basis.

But just because we respect Greg as a good common-sense sort of guy based upon his history here, that is no reason to rubber-stamp his actions without a modicum of objectivity.

Absolutely no offense intended, Greg; just telling it the way I see it.


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## naptown CR (Feb 20, 2009)

d-rock said:


> Why would you say that ? To me, that sounds as if you're assuming you're gonna be the high number straight away. The guy wants a good price for a product he wants to purchase. Just like if you were gonna buy a new car, wouldn't you look for the best deal? True, the guy may be tire kicking or just looking for cheap for cheap's sake, but if a HO is serious about doing work why not give an honest bid?





Leo G said:


> Because it sounds like the client isn't planning on making this easy. He is doing it backwards. You don't need a n architects plan but you do need something specific that can be compared to apples to apples. He wants to get a price and then find out what the details are. Wrong way to do it. It sounds like you are willing to put up with a lot more bull**** from a client that Greg is. After you have been in business for a while you learn that some jobs/clients aren't worth the price/hassle.


I have read a few of these posts and you are being stubborn.
You know the spans of joists and what needs to be done to reinforce without an architect.
You should be familiar with enough codes to be able to interpret what the HO wants and come up with at least a preliminary estimate. By not doing so you are displaying the fact that you do not know what is required to build what the HO wants and are relying on another professional to tell you what you need. Altholugh this may be required for a permit and final approval you should know what is involved and what needs to be upgraded and changed, without the help or crutch of an architect's drawings. jeez this aint rocket science and you aint building no rocket it's finishing an attic.
end of rant


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