# Am I being hosed?



## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

BRShomerepair said:


> PC:
> 
> Anyways, when the OP was discussing what he does, and what he is paid for it, and he stated he sub-contracts- So I assume he invoices and gets a cheque, pays his own taxes, has a tax #, etc.
> 
> ...


I disagree 100%. 

First. without a license, he cannot do t & m as a contract. The 'time' portion has to be taxed as an employee. I hope we don't have to get into a huge debate to prove this.

Second, I am a general contractor. This guy is working for the hour for a general contractor regardless of how you slice it. He is an employee working for $23 per hour. No other way!

I am a general contractor. I hire employees exactly the way this guy was hired. I offer them $*** ($23) per hour and they accept that rate. As in the case of this guy, I am not going to allow this guy to come to my office every time I need some work and then negotiate with him because he thinks he is gods' gift to the earth because he worked for his grandmother and has 1-1/2 years in the trade.

Most important: My company does several million dollars in business every year. Suppose, I have a $100,000 job to start this morning and this clown gets a bug up his butt and wants to negotiate before he will go to the job. I am always looking forward and would never put myself in a position where a disrespectful and ungrateful employee who called me a hoser can cause me to lose my $100,000 job.

One major problem society has is we find too many bad things to be acceptable because 'bad' is usually the norm.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Pure Integrity said:


> Thank you to all for your valuable input and advice. Even to PC. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
> 
> Yes, I did ask for $23/hr. I knew at the time I was worth more than that, but being fairly new to the home reno industry, I didn't want to scare him off and lose the opportunity. So it was my lack of experience and eagerness to work in the industry that kept me that low. Of course, in the same situation today, I would ask for much more, because I know better.
> 
> ...


Now here's the thing... do you know how to achieve this? Here is an example of an employee mindset and a business owner... where do you think your salary comes from?

If you want to NET $75K/year as an example, on the surface it seems like you should charge $36/hour ($75K / 2080 hours)... is that what you should charge?

I really want to encourage you to think this through...

.


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## Pure Integrity (Jan 8, 2016)

BRShomerepair said:


> PC:
> 
> Anyways, when the OP was discussing what he does, and what he is paid for it, and he stated he sub-contracts- So I assume he invoices and gets a cheque, pays his own taxes, has a tax #, etc.
> 
> ...


This "getting under my skin" feeling is what prompted me to use the question "am I being hosed?" as the title. However, it does sound very accusatory before being informed. Now that I've learned some very valuable information, I'm actually quite happy with my title. And yes, my job situation will be changing very soon.


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## Pure Integrity (Jan 8, 2016)

KAP said:


> Now here's the thing... do you know how to achieve this? Here is an example of an employee mindset and and business owner... where do you think your salary comes from?
> 
> If you want to NET $75K/year as an example, on the surface it seems like you should charge $36/hour ($75K / 2080 hours)... is that what you should charge?
> 
> ...


The fact is I have always known the answer to that question. Unfortunately, I had read from a few sources online that I should be in the $25/hr range as a sub with my skills. This is the first time I've asked this question on a forum. So I'm actually quite surprised at the responses.

I think I would have to figure out my OH and desired company profit on an hourly basis and add that to the $36/hr. But if you're talking netting $75K, then I would have to figure out the approx gross income first because canadian government likes to eat yum yum income.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Pure Integrity said:


> The fact is I have always known the answer to that question. Unfortunately, I had read from a few sources online that I should be in the $25/hr range as a sub with my skills. This is the first time I've asked this question on a forum. So I'm actually quite surprised at the responses.
> 
> I think I would have to figure out my OH and desired company profit on an hourly basis and add that to the $36/hr. But if you're talking netting $75K, then I would have to figure out the approx gross income first because canadian government likes to eat yum yum income.


:thumbsup:

You're on the right track... now comes the harder part... realizing not everyone is your customer... out of a sea of prospects you have to fish the right waters to find the ones that feed your family and business...

It's really irrelevant for the most part what the "prevailing wage" is because your company is different than the next... that matters when it comes to employees but not so much when it comes to employers... and what you want to take home highlights this... if you have a guy in your next of the woods who is happy with $45K/year and you need to $75/K to feed your family, just on this ONE metric, you aren't going to "compete" with that guy... unless you want to make the same as him...

If the GC you are working with can't afford your new rate, it will mean you need to realize he is no longer a customer and find the customers that can support it, get faster at what you do (productivity = more money) or find ways to extract money from your business through process or marketing/fulfillment...

What I think we can all hear in your posts is someone who is ready to go to the next level... encouraging nowadays... keep asking the questions... it's what this site is all about... :thumbsup:

I remember being right where you are at decades ago... was tired of not making money (I mean REALLY tired of not making money and struggling)... was ready to throw in the towel and finally said we're either going to charge what we need to be in business or go work for someone else who's figured it out... had MULTIPLE price increases and the close ratio barely moved... what an eye-opening year on how much money we were leaving on the table... don't listen to "average wages"... to come up with an average means there is some on the high end and low end... you don't want to be on the low or average end...

Best of luck... 8^)


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Pure Integrity said:


> I am a sub working for a mid-sized general contractor since last July. He hired me as someone who could take a project from start to finish as I have done it many times before. I have been working professionally in home renos for about 1.5 years, but I have a lot of experience just doing it for myself, friends and family.
> 
> At first he started me at $20/hr to gauge how skilled I was, and then offered me $22/hr a few weeks later. I asked for $23/hr and we settled on that.
> 
> ...


If you are an independent contractor with all the insurances and tools required to do this type of work, yes, you are getting hosed.

If he is telling you what to do, when to do it, how to do it then you are an employee.


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## Pure Integrity (Jan 8, 2016)

pcplumber said:


> I disagree 100%.
> 
> First. without a license, he cannot do t & m as a contract. The 'time' portion has to be taxed as an employee. I hope we don't have to get into a huge debate to prove this.
> 
> ...


You know, the funny thing is that just this very morning, I emailed the GC to tell him about my obligations to collect HST (our goods/services tax) and that I would not begin work today until he agreed to pay it. You're right PC. I'm an ******* for wanting to do the right thing and claim my income at year end. I could have just kept the whole thing as cash and not said anything. If I got away with it, I could have received free healthcare, free social services, free rebates from the government. But instead, I have a conscience and like to be fair and pay into the system just like every other honest person does.

Please GC, if you ever see me while driving, just run me over... several times. I'm a horrible person. You're awesome. I'm a loser. Enjoy!


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## Pure Integrity (Jan 8, 2016)

KAP said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> You're on the right track... now comes the harder part... realizing not everyone is your customer... out of a sea of prospects you have to fish the right waters to find the ones that feed your family and business...
> 
> ...


Thanks KAP. Very helpful indeed. Ever consider writing a book or starting a blog on the subject of contracting? 

Thanks to everyone for their input. Tomorrow is a new day.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I have never had a sub act as an employee, but down in here in Texas I pay considerably more for guys offering less. We have a sub contractor who has his own crew, signed vehicles, tools and insurance, i pay quite a bit more per man hour when he does crew labor on a remodel hourly, generally some work thats not straight foward or a change to a fixed contract price. He does not run the job or anything but do the work I contract him for.


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## BRShomerepair (Jun 28, 2015)

pcplumber said:


> I disagree 100%.
> 
> First. without a license, he cannot do t & m as a contract. The 'time' portion has to be taxed as an employee. I hope we don't have to get into a huge debate to prove this..


That's fine. I don't have the time or the inclination for a debate. I would just encourage you to remember he isn't living in California, or the same country as you for that matter. For the legalities of if he is truly a sub or not, I don't know enough about his situation or the employment laws of his province. I am assuming he has a tax # and invoices mr contractor. He may not be in the clear regarding the legalities, but in that case the contractor should bring him on board as an employee. Then he would need to put him on payroll, which I am assuming he is not.

And at the end of the day I don't care. He stated he is insured and tooled. (and I don't know many employees that carry liability insurance)I am not suggesting he walk into contractors office tomorrow and start throwing things and demanding justice. He accepted a rate to begin with that put him in a long climb uphill, unless he and his contractor re-negotiate. I do think he doesn't have anything to lose to chat with buddy and just tell him that financially this agreement isn't working out, thanks for the work but I will need more or will go elsewhere. 

I am suggesting that this is a good learning experience for him, and if he can't re-negotiate a more fair deal with the contractor (sub or employee, whatever) then time to move on to a company that will put him on the books properly, or set himself up as a sub with a more profitable little business.

Keeping a guy as a "subcontractor" and paying him a wage that is what an employee would be making, meanwhile he is bringing tools and a vehicle to the table, is a deal far more beneficial to the GC, and he knows it.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

This question & ensuing arguments started at the beginning of time and will likely go on until we colonize space several thousand years into the future....

Grass is always greener....

I'm not making enough....

Other guys are making more.....

Boss is too rich....

Your current position is of your own doing, good or bad....

If you don't like it and think you can do better move on....

or just get up, thank God you have a job and just go to work...


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## Walraven (Jan 24, 2014)

I always love this line "I've been doing this 1.5 years but I can do all the sub trades better, faster than all the other guys"
1.5 years in one trade you don't know chit yet, let alone however many you are covering.


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## m1911 (Feb 24, 2009)

In this occupation, we're all being hosed.


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Did I hear correctly that you have 1 1/2 years experience? GTFO greenhorn. Get a job where you can actually learn the trade. You shouldn't be supervising anyone.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

If you are dumb and stupid enough to ask if you are getting hosed then you are stupid and you deserve to be hosed.

How can you tell everyone how smart and great you are and then be dumb enough not to know your own personal value. The truth is you don't know your value, it is probably much less than you think and I am basing that on the things you wrote. 

I've had several people tell me through the years that they want to spy of their wife because they think their wife is cheating on them. I tell them not to spy on their wife because it doesn't matter if she is cheating and that is because if you even expect that your wife is cheating you already have a much more serious underlying problem. If you think your boss is cheating you have a serious underlying problem and you should quit.

I would not want you working for my company when you have questions in the back of your mind asking yourself if I am screwing you. Get out of my face if you don't trust me. Don't bother coming to work thinking you are doing me favors. I am not desperate enough to have to hire someone who has to ask people he doesn't know if he is getting screwed.

I want to ask you a stupid question. All the other plumbers in town are getting $15,000 to $20,000 to install a 40-foot sewer. I agreed to install a customer's 50-foot sewer for $5,000. Is the customer screwing me? So, tomorrow morning when I get to the customer's home I will give her dirty looks all day long and when she asks what the problem is I will tell her that the members of CT told me that she is hosing me.

I am a general contractor and my job is not to pay idiots more money than they ask for and not to pay idiots money they don't deserve. If you are dumb enough to come to my company and ask for $23 per hour and I not going to be stupid and tell you that I will pay you $30 per hour.

If you come to my company and agree to work for $23 per hours I am not going to drop my pants to my knees and give you a raise just because you 'think' you are worth more money because if you have to ask people on CT how much money your are worth how we suppose to know how much you are worth when you don't even know the answer. Only your boss knows what you are worth to him and it is not all about what you think you are worth. I may call your boss, ask what you are worth and he could tell me that you are the biggest and laziest idiot he ever met.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

griz said:


> This question & ensuing arguments started at the beginning of time and will likely go on until we colonize space several thousand years into the future....
> 
> Grass is always greener....
> 
> ...


My boss never plays enough golf. What a bastard!


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

CLTCommercial said:


> I'm in commercial construction in North Carolina, so not a perfect comparison, but I would hire you in a heartbeat for that $/h as a subcontractor. I would expect to pay significantly more for a project foreman with your skill level providing their own tools and transportation.
> 
> Let's see what the residential guys say


This guy already told you that he:

agreed to work for someone for $23 per hour and at the same time has to ask CT because he doesn't know how much he is worth, 

said he is slow, 

said he is a s.o.b., 

bad mouths his boss and yet he has the jewels to still works for him,

complains behind his boss's back to members of CT, 

doesn't know what he is worth himself and you say you would hire him??? Is there anybody you would not hire because this guy covers just about everything that is bad about employees. You can't be serious about hiring him!


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

Pure Integrity said:


> In the owner's words, "I like you. You're professional, honest, hard-working, and you understand the way things work. And though you are fast and technically skilled, you are missing fluidity. Sometimes you have to figure something out before you do it."
> 
> It is true that, as inexperienced as I am, I do have to sometimes think things through before committing to a plan. In my experience on other jobs, I have found that jumping into the first solution that pops into my head usually ends up costing me time and money. I have found that by taking a few minutes to think things through, I can actually do the job in less time and save the worker behind me a lot of grief.
> 
> And you're on the ball. I cannot afford to continue doing what I'm doing at $23/hr.


I don't root for the underdog and just these two paragraphs you wrote tell me that you have serious mental issues. Most-likely, you skipped school too much or did some drugs. 

You sound like you have mental problems when you say in more than one way that you have to stop and think about things, or it will cost you. First, you claim you are experienced and then you say you have brain spasms where it takes you time to think. You are not building a prototype spaceship going to Mars and it doesn't take a whole lot of thinking to do something you are fairly experienced with. Your statements convince me that you are not worth $23 per hour because you do not have the experience you think you have. 

Just because you have an SUV full of tools, those tools do not make you a craftsman. I know a lot of brain dead idots who buy boatloads of tools and they can't read a 12 inch ruler.

Ask your mother, relatives, or friends how much you are worth and they will be much kinder. I have no room in my heart for someone who makes an agreement with me, talks crap about me as a result of that agreement and then continues to work for me. If you stay with your boss and call him names at the same time you have another serious problem and reason I would not hire you. It is called low self-esteem! I can imagine you with your low self-esteem being visible to my customers as you drag your butt around every day pondering and whining about being hosed by the boss you made an agreement with. 

For all the people on CT who say they would hire you, you will still be the person you are regardless of how much you are paid and you will still treat all those bosses with the same disrespect. That is why we do thorough background and psychological tests. We (bosses) don't want to hire people we are going to have problems with. We don't want to make an agreement with someone and then be accused of hosing that person. We would rather hire people who are more-experienced, mentally stable and a person who knows what he is worth vs. a person who has to ask members on CT.

I am a really nice guy, I love people, dogs and fish. I purchased every tool that Home Depot sells. I am a little slow at times and have to think about things and sometimes I have to do them a second time (maybe more). My boss even agrees that I am not fluid (whatever that means) but I even work late without complaining (probably because I am fixing my screwups). I agreed to work for $23 per hour and I want to know if I am being hosed. How much am I worth? Answer: What is minimum wage in Canada?


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

BRShomerepair said:


> That's fine. I don't have the time or the inclination for a debate. I would just encourage you to remember he isn't living in California, or the same country as you for that matter. For the legalities of if he is truly a sub or not, I don't know enough about his situation or the employment laws of his province. I am assuming he has a tax # and invoices mr contractor. He may not be in the clear regarding the legalities, but in that case the contractor should bring him on board as an employee. Then he would need to put him on payroll, which I am assuming he is not.
> 
> And at the end of the day I don't care. He stated he is insured and tooled. (and I don't know many employees that carry liability insurance)I am not suggesting he walk into contractors office tomorrow and start throwing things and demanding justice. He accepted a rate to begin with that put him in a long climb uphill, unless he and his contractor re-negotiate. I do think he doesn't have anything to lose to chat with buddy and just tell him that financially this agreement isn't working out, thanks for the work but I will need more or will go elsewhere.
> 
> ...


The method of doing business and negotiating is correct. Making an agreement with your boss, calling him names, not knowing himself what he is worth, and making a deal and then setting the boss up to where the boss depends on him and is then subject to extortion and losing money because the employee keeps re-negotiating is not right.

People on CT have to be serious. Who wants to subject themselves to the pain that results from hiring someone with all these problems that poison the other employees in your company. Hire this guy and all your employees will want to negotiate every time their butt itches and they will mutiny when they know you have a lot of work and need them the most. 

My busiest season every year is from November 1st to the end of January. About 35 years ago, for about 5 years in a row, between Christmas and New Years, I fired my entire shop because they mutinied on me. One year, I fired a drug addict and all the other employees told me they would quit if I fired him. So, I fired the entire shop of about 18 employees and hired only one back. You can verify this statement in posts I wrote around the time I started on CT. When you hire one employee who spreads poison like this employee you can destroy your entire shop. You have to have employees who know what they are worth, or they will never be satisfied like this employee. You want employees who respect you. This employee does not respect his boss.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

to the OP
I think Griz and Kap did an excellent job of pointing this out to you---- but I will take a stab myself

You aren't being hosed by anyone.
you are in a situation YOU created yourself--- and you are experiencing the consequences of some poor decisions.
YOU are being paid what YOU agreed to.
YOU are the one who didn't buy a truck
when you made those decisions--- you knew you lacked some basic experience--- and you wanted to get your foot in the door........

Now--- you have better experience--- and you feel the contractor is taking advantage of you
You are blaming the contractor--- for the situation YOU created.

but the reality is--- if you want your situation to improve YOU need to change--- YOU need to improve it. It's not the contractors responsibility to do so.
Here is the long and the short of it.
if you want to improve your situation--- you are going to have to buy a truck,rent a pair of balls---and go out and sell your own projects.
once you complete a project----and learn you didn't make as much as you felt you deserved????? see if the customer feels obligated to pay you more than the contract you sold......

Really---best wishes to you--- you can fix this situation--- but no body else is obligated to fix it for you.

stephen


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