# Ice in gutters and down spout



## davinci (Dec 26, 2007)

everytime i get alot of snow it seems the gutters ice up as well as the downspouts. any remedy for it? also,what the damn cause?


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

davinci said:


> also,what the damn cause?


The damn cause of the dam? :thumbup:

All you can do to prevent ice is make sure the underside of the decking in the attic is the same temperature as the outdoor air via proper ventilation/insulation. 

The next step is a heated cable in the downspout, but as long as the ice isn't damming up into the soffit and onto the roof I wouldn't bother.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

a quality leaf guard system, bigger spout/gutter or possibly heat tape...


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## enforcer (Aug 25, 2008)

i'm not a roofer but would not having an ice/water shield have anything to do with it?


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

Ahhh good ol ice dams. I remember those. I have the perfect fix, I know it works because I did it about 16 years ago and never had an ice dam since. I moved south where Mother Nature does not spit that white puke on me.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

enforcer said:


> i'm not a roofer but would not having an ice/water shield have anything to do with it?


No.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Jimmy Cabinet said:


> Ahhh good ol ice dams. I remember those. I have the perfect fix, I know it works because I did it about 16 years ago and never had an ice dam since. I moved south where Mother Nature does not spit that white puke on me.


Cheater.:whistling


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## Ayerzee (Jan 4, 2009)

davinci said:


> everytime i get alot of snow it seems the gutters ice up as well as the downspouts. any remedy for it? also,what the damn cause?


Water freezing causes it. Take your gutters and downspouts off your house.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Or put insulation in your attic so the roof doesn't get warm enough to melt the snow to ice so it freezes in your gutters


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...3fff62a3e&itemid=7618097945&ff4=263602_304652


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Ice is the end result and makes the problem. The first problem is, why do you have water on your roof? It's either heat loss, the sun is melting it, or your vents are covered with snow. The water is under the insulated layer of snow till it hits the cold metal, then freezes. Heat tape will help, but then you'll just have ice where the downspout empties.

Leaf guards make the ice much worse because it just has more exposed metal for the water to hit and freeze.

Gutters are great, but require maintenance any way you look at it.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

Heat from house escapes through ceiling and warms attic and/or underside of roof sheathing. Transferred heat melts snow from underneath. Melted snow (water) runs down the roof and refreezes as it gets to the part of the roof where there is no more heated space directly below it (any part of the roof that extends beyond the exterior wall) The forming ice continues to gather and creates a ridge of ice (dam). More snow continues to melt and the runoff gets stopped by the formed ice damn. once the ice damn has formed high enough on the roof to be even with the exterior wall of the house it will no longer refreeze and there will start to be a collection of standing water. Shingle roofs are designed to shed water and are vulnerable to infiltration of standing water. If the roof was installed with waterproofing underlayment at the eaves, there is a _better chance_ the water will not infiltrate the roof system.

Proper insulation and ventilation which maintains the attic temperature to a match of the exterior temperature should eliminate ice dams. This is because melting only occurs when it will melt all the way off the roof and through the gutter system. When the temp is below freezing, there is no melting.

The problem is that in older houses (and a lot of newer ones as well) the insulation/ventilation was not well considered. Trying to re-engineer a working balance in an existing house with a bad icing problem can make for quite a challenge.

There are two things that are essential to getting ice damns to stop.


Proper insulation blanket over the ceilings of areas of the building which have attics/roofs immediately above
Proper ventilation in attic spaces and rafter cavities where heat loss occurs
 The problem with the above is many existing structures will not allow these conditions to be met without unreasonable expense. When modifications to insulation/ventilation are not able to provide a balance that slows the icing process (due to economic viability) there remain a couple of active measures one can take to reduce the ice.


Use a roof snow rake to remove the snow from the bottom edge of the roof as high as reachable
Use electric snow melting cables
 If the ice is not causing problems with leaks or pulling the gutter off the house or creating a safety hazard one can simply ignore it. It is however a sign of heat loss and one might want to consider what the cost of that heat loss is and if it makes sense to try and improve the insulation/ventilation configuration.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

We have dealt with this on several occasions over the last few winters. Most times it has to do with the insulation and ventilation. Heat escaping from lighting fixtures can also be a problem. Cathedral ceilings, change in roof slope, metal valleys, lack of or improper iceguard, and the overall design of the roof can also be factors. Sometimes elimination is not entirely possible in my opinion. The heating cables seem to work for the cases where everything else has been covered.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Mr Latone said:


> Heat from house escapes through ceiling and warms attic and/or underside of roof sheathing. Transferred heat melts snow from underneath. Melted snow (water) runs down the roof and refreezes as it gets to the part of the roof where there is no more heated space directly below it (any part of the roof that extends beyond the exterior wall) The forming ice continues to gather and creates a ridge of ice (dam). More snow continues to melt and the runoff gets stopped by the formed ice damn. once the ice damn has formed high enough on the roof to be even with the exterior wall of the house it will no longer refreeze and there will start to be a collection of standing water. Shingle roofs are designed to shed water and are vulnerable to infiltration of standing water. If the roof was installed with waterproofing underlayment at the eaves, there is a _better chance_ the water will not infiltrate the roof system.
> 
> Proper insulation and ventilation which maintains the attic temperature to a match of the exterior temperature should eliminate ice dams. This is because melting only occurs when it will melt all the way off the roof and through the gutter system. When the temp is below freezing, there is no melting.
> 
> ...


In a perfect world that copy and paste is correct(is that from your own website?), although we have mother nature and the real world to deal with. The media has gotten everyone stuck on heat loss, ventilation, and insulation. One big problem is most of the people installing ventilation and insulation aren't sure exactly what they are doing. Even though ventilation and insulation problems can cause problems with ice......just as much to blame is the heat from the sun on the shingles, too much snow covering ventilation, and metal gutters and gutter guards like I explained briefly. Not to mention some areas like MN that have -10 one day, 40 and rain the next, and then back to 0 with snow the next day.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

MJW said:


> In a perfect world that copy and paste is correct(is that from your own website?), although we have mother nature and the real world to deal with. The media has gotten everyone stuck on heat loss, ventilation, and insulation. One big problem is most of the people installing ventilation and insulation aren't sure exactly what they are doing. Even though ventilation and insulation problems can cause problems with ice......just as much to blame is the heat from the sun on the shingles, too much snow covering ventilation, and metal gutters and gutter guards like I explained briefly. Not to mention some areas like MN that have -10 one day, 40 and rain the next, and then back to 0 with snow the next day.


Not a copy/paste, just too much time on a Saturday afternoon lol. Your are absolutely correct about solar gain, etc. As far as the perfect world scenario, I thought I avoided any suggestion that remedies for every situation could be had by slapping on a couple of box vents and rolling out a couple inches of insulation.

I do maintain, however, that the majority of ice problems can be designed out of new construction, It just doesn't always suit the style of the building to do so.

The manufacturers have done a good job marketing their ventilation products. A great deal of contractors and a lot of web searching homeowners have been taken in by a lot of BS that is unsubstantiated in the real world environment.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

on iv'e been ''consuting''on recently the previouse roofer walked away from it


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

Walked?

JK, I love a challenge.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

hi Jeff:thumbup:

no they are friends of a good customer of mine see if we can help them out


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

This year so far has been one of the biggest ice dam years in history. Tons of newspaper articles and tv news reports. Have had several calls on newer roofs leaking as a result of ice daming.

Opened a Certaintee ice dam brochure and on the last page it states that all roofing underlayment manufacturers WILL NOT warrant backed up water on top of an ice dam. They will warrant against ice and wind driven rain but not standing water on top of an ice dam.

In about a four week spread most of the Twin Cities got about 40 inches of snow. Then it got to about 40 degrees for a few days!

What have I done to combat this problem?
Bought a $3,850 machine to charge $275 an hour to steam away the ice. The going rate is $325 an hour per person. For $275 for two people there getting a steal of a deal! A good friend of mine is friends with a guy who owns a company who runs 30 vans with steamers in them. Last I heard $350 an hour for steaming, $150 an hour to shovel snow, add $100 an hour for next day service. Spending $1,000 a day on google and bringing in $50,000 a day. 

Ice dams causing leaks is about the only time an insuarnce company will compensate for a roof leak.


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

Tom, that is one gawdawful fugly residence :whistling


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Renegade said:


> Tom, that is one gawdawful fugly residence :whistling


While I agree, it's just a box to keep the weather out. In the final analysis, that's what any house is.

Our job is to ensure that the box does what it's intended to do. :thumbsup:


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

tomstruble said:


>


That's not that dam bad looking to me. The most hideous part is the trim boards :shutup:

So it only leaks when icy? On the porch ceiling, or? Got insulation?


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Good thing the other "roofer" ran Tom. Otherwise, all that wood siding would be caulked to the shingles with Silicone.:laughing:


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

dougger222 said:


> This year so far has been one of the biggest ice dam years in history. Tons of newspaper articles and tv news reports. Have had several calls on newer roofs leaking as a result of ice daming.
> 
> Opened a Certaintee ice dam brochure and on the last page it states that all roofing underlayment manufacturers WILL NOT warrant backed up water on top of an ice dam. They will warrant against ice and wind driven rain but not standing water on top of an ice dam.
> 
> ...


Seems to be on topic of the OP enough, so please indulge me......

What have you got? Is it more than a hot pressure washer? Seems like a small investment for a large return. While I realize each roof is different, how long does it take? Maybe this could be described with something like "I can remove 30 feet x 8" of ice at the drip edge in about ? minutes.

Anything else you care to elaborate on would be appreciated.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

dougger222 said:


> $350 an hour for steaming, $150 an hour to shovel snow, add $100 an hour for next day service. Spending $1,000 a day on google and bringing in $50,000 a day.


I'm not sure who's making out better, the guy with the vans or the SEO expert.

That steamer does sound nice. If it weren't for ice I'd have had a lot more time to spend here on CT.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

jmiller said:


> I'm not sure who's making out better, the guy with the vans or the SEO expert.
> 
> That steamer does sound nice. If it weren't for ice I'd have had a lot more time to spend here on CT.


You know damn well who's making out in these situations. I know Dougger is legit, but most of these "companies" are charging top dollar for a specialist who really is just another ordinary laborer. The business owner sitting on the ground or in the truck is the one making the money.

You see the "contractors" that are interviewed on the news because they remove ice dams right??? When you get their name, google it. You'll see what kind of slime they really are.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

tomstruble said:


> on iv'e been ''consuting''on recently the previouse roofer walked away from it



I think I would suggest losing the gutter on hat one and 
try addressing the run off at ground level.
Maybe a lined stone filled trench pitched to
a run into the yard.
You could always build something to divert
the run off from the entry,or just exit to
the side when its raining.
And you thought I got all the fun ones!


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Superheated steam does not equal water.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

MJW said:


> You know damn well who's making out in these situations.


I take it that wasn't meant to be a pun, so no- I was actually not familiar with that business model. Nobody around here advertises for it. I added it to my google places acct, and now we're the only ones that show up on a map search (website under construction). Hopefully the result will be that we need to buy a steamer.

I'd also like to have a FLIR camera, to help diagnose and fix the root cause. I have my doubts the insurance co would pay to the fix the cause, but I may be wrong.


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## James Knowles (Jan 30, 2011)

I have a carpet cleaning business. Cleaning is slow in the winter so we got involved in this years ago. We shovel off all the snow then use our carpet steam machines to melt the ice and collect all the runoff with our vacuum system so as not to create a flooding condition. We also do the restorative drying inside the dwelling if damage is present.


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## winters (Feb 1, 2011)

superseal said:


> a quality leaf guard system, bigger spout/gutter or possibly heat tape...


 


I wouldn't recommend a leaf guard system unless you like icicles:no:1st make sure the gutter is draining.Then upgrade to a 3x4 downspout if the gutter is 5".Last run ray-chem heat tape (you can order from weather guard)one line start at edge of roof loop up about 2ft up and down the edge of the roof run back through the gutter then down the downspout.Pop it out buy a GFI , wire on the control switch and BAM:clap:, good to go! Est time 1hr materials 150 bucks:thumbsup:


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

winters said:


> I wouldn't recommend a leaf guard system unless you like icicles:no:1st make sure the gutter is draining.Then upgrade to a 3x4 downspout if the gutter is 5".Last run ray-chem heat tape (you can order from weather guard)one line start at edge of roof loop up about 2ft up and down the edge of the roof run back through the gutter then down the downspout.Pop it out buy a GFI , wire on the control switch and BAM:clap:, good to go! Est time 1hr materials 150 bucks:thumbsup:


Your getting a hell of a deal. Last time we bought from weather guard it was 4.04 per foot for 100 ft rool and 42.00 for rey chems gfci controller. 100' doesnt get you very far. You also forgot to include the price of an electrican to install a 30 amp outlet on it own circuit.


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