# Comparing Strategies in Masonry



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

I would like to discuss not only different strategies but also problems that have been solved and problems that we would like to solve the world of Masonry. 

Since it is not very productive or profitable to analyze which way works best while on the company clock I thought that this is the appropriate place to exchange our ideas and opinions.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

If you have to cut a control joint in a brick wall try putting two blades on your quickie saw.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

If you are 5 jacks high in the air and outriggers are too close to your wall (or too far away) make sure the screwlegs on the jacks that are next too the problem jack are snug (BE CAREFUL and make sure the scaffolding is plumb) then loosen the screwlegs on the problem jack so that the jacks that are adjacent to it are supporting it allowing the jack to swing freely back and forth. Position the scaffold feet in the correct position then tighten screwlegs.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

If you are doing a job with no place to dump your mixer clean out ,then after dump your last batch of mud do not put water in it. Banging out the leftovers is easier when its dry than when its wet.


----------



## Tommy C (Jul 11, 2005)

Confucious says, "Mason who cut stone without dust mask and water, wake up with black lung".


----------



## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

HgWhiz said:


> If you are doing a job with no place to dump your mixer clean out ,then after dump your last batch of mud do not put water in it. Banging out the leftovers is easier when its dry than when its wet.


if someone working for me was to try that,they wouldnt be working for me the next day.if there is no place to dump,you can make a sand dam and dump there.picking it up after it dries.


----------



## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

stacker said:


> if someone working for me was to try that,they wouldnt be working for me the next day.if there is no place to dump,you can make a sand dam and dump there.picking it up after it dries.


 
Or take it back to the shop to clean it out there.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

stacker said:


> if someone working for me was to try that,they wouldnt be working for me the next day.if there is no place to dump,you can make a sand dam and dump there.picking it up after it dries.


 

I was meaning a that job was finished and you no reason to come back like a mailbox for instance that was on the other side of town. Forgive me for not being clear.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

stacker said:


> if someone working for me was to try that,they wouldnt be working for me the next day.if there is no place to dump,you can make a sand dam and dump there.picking it up after it dries.


When you purchase a new mixer do you adjust the blades so that they touch the drum?


----------



## natural1 (Aug 30, 2007)

HgWhiz said:


> If you are doing a job with no place to dump your mixer clean out ,then after dump your last batch of mud do not put water in it. Banging out the leftovers is easier when its dry than when its wet.



 not a good idea. Perhaps applicable to a concrete mixer but cleaning the paddles on a mortar mixer is a PITA when dry. Banging not good.


----------



## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

Speaking of cleaning mort mixers, I'm wondering if any of you run plastic drummed mixers. I'm in the market for a new mixer (to replace little 6 CF), & wondering if they clean alot faster than steel? It seems I could buy another 8 CF mixer in a plastic drum that only weighs what a 6CF steel weighs.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

natural1 said:


> not a good idea. Perhaps applicable to a concrete mixer but cleaning the paddles on a mortar mixer is a PITA when dry. Banging not good.


 
When I said dry I meant let it set up for 30 minutes not hardened, and if I have limited water I bang then scrape then rinse. If you dump water in the mixer after the last batch the mud sticks to the drum and blades when you get ready to clean it out.


----------



## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

My Stone mixer is 5 years old. Still starts on the first pull everytime, and alot of smaller jobs I do I cant get a hose and have to cart buckets of water from the neighbor. 

There for I cant keep my mixer as clean as I want, but I have no qualms about beating on it, and have done so any many occasions. Granted I dont take my 5lb stone hammer to it and pound a hole in the side, but theres nothing wrong with givin it some TLC.


----------



## gallerytungsten (Jul 5, 2007)

*Mixer Cleaning*

A garden hoe with a small blade and a long handle works great for getting the last of the concrete out and cleaning the mixer.


----------



## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

gallerytungsten said:


> A garden hoe with a small blade and a long handle works great for getting the last of the concrete out and cleaning the mixer.


we used to use a margin trowel and piece of carpet for scrubbing.


and of course NuShine wax every other day.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Add 1/2 to 3/4 of your mix water for the next batch and run the mixer for a few minutes, and it is clean for a couple of hours. Put the used bags in the pour out zone, wet them and throw the whole mess away at end of the day, or at the end of the job if it is small.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

Anyone ever layed caststone with pins in the head joints ?


----------



## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Yes many times.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

So you know how to lay the closer and still be able to put the pins in on both sides?


----------



## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Pins who needs 'em. I assume you are talking about the old string line trick? I use that on large precast panels even if it is not the closure panel.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

DavidC said:


> I inherited my mixer when I was hired to clean out an abandoned property, and it came "preseasoned". Only used it ocassionally and never bothered to worry about it until I got into counter tops and it trapped dyes in the cracks that would ruin the next batch.
> 
> I cleaned it out with a 2 lb. hammer and a brick chisel. Only took a couple of hours and cleaned up nicely. I was surprised, thought I was F'ed.
> 
> ...



To my knowledge some mixers cant handle 4 buckets of sand so mud doesnt mix well..


----------



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Try cleaning the ultimate mixer...the truck!

My buddy who has the concrete plant has several guys who offer  to go into the barrel on occasion to chip it out.

I kid you not - A five yarder that is getting done now has a 12" to 
16" cured slurry running around the inside of the drum and this job ain't pretty. I bet this can only hold about 2 1/2 to 3 yards currently so he's losing money daily by not having true delivery capacity. They've been working on it for about 2 days and it's almost finished. 

All the water in the world ain't enough to keep a concrete truck clean and I view mixers the same way...just gotta bang'em out once in awhile.

Any given week of the year you'll hear the familiar chirping of the hammer guns in the background as he has many trucks on the road and is simply part of the business.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

DavidC said:


> I inherited my mixer when I was hired to clean out an abandoned property, and it came "preseasoned". Only used it ocassionally and never bothered to worry about it until I got into counter tops and it trapped dyes in the cracks that would ruin the next batch.
> 
> I cleaned it out with a 2 lb. hammer and a brick chisel. Only took a couple of hours and cleaned up nicely. I was surprised, thought I was F'ed.
> 
> ...


Concrete has large aggregate in it, mortar only sand. For mortar you need paddles to throw the mix around and thoroughly mix, it also adds a lot of air and thus workability. The heavy aggregate in concrete could never get passed the blades and the drum, and the weight of the aggregate in a barrel mixer causes it to fall, a big part of the mixing. 

Long and short is the size of the aggregate. I have seen mortar speced with large aggregate that I wouldn't put through my mixer, I'd rent or buy a concrete mixer.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

superseal said:


> Try cleaning the ultimate mixer...the truck!
> 
> My buddy who has the concrete plant has several guys who offer  to go into the barrel on occasion to chip it out.
> 
> ...



Dirty Jobs did that one. And Myth Busters did a try at using dynamite. I can't remember the results


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> Dirty Jobs did that one. And Myth Busters did a try at using dynamite. I can't remember the results


The point was to clean the drum, but I think that they were more interested in seeing big explosion because they blew the truck to smithereens.


----------



## Diamond D. (Nov 12, 2009)

jomama said:


> Speaking of cleaning mort mixers, I'm wondering if any of you run plastic drummed mixers. I'm in the market for a new mixer (to replace little 6 CF), & wondering if they clean alot faster than steel? It seems I could buy another 8 CF mixer in a plastic drum that only weighs what a 6CF steel weighs.


I'm in the same boat and have been meaning to pose this question for some time now.
But, since Hg brought back his thread, I thought I would reiterate Jomama's query.
Maybe, they're more in use now, three years later.

I really can't see a poly drum being any easier to clean, unless, of course you're waxing it every other day, like lukachuki does. 
And, God forbid, taking a hammer to it, if it gets away from you. :no:
I've seen some of the poly pans, some of the guys are using, and they don't bode well for the plastics industry in masonry.
I still have a couple of 30+ year old steel pans going strong. Granted they're not exactly square, but, they still hold mud without dripping all over the place.

That's my take on it, but, I have an open mind and may consider its use.
Anyone have any experience with these things.
Pros or cons.

Thanks,
D.


----------



## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

This is a good thread. Just took awhile to ripen.

Good Luck
Dave


----------



## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

Diamond D. said:


> I really can't see a poly drum being any easier to clean, unless, of course you're waxing it every other day, like lukachuki does.
> 
> 
> D.


"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Benjamin F. Ranklin :clap:


----------



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

lukachuki said:


> "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Benjamin F. Ranklin :clap:


Yep, as long as you don't become penny wise pound foolish, your good 

I'm quoting Ben to my customers all the time :whistling


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I had a poly drum and hated it. The grate on the top doesn't open like a normal one, so its hard to clean. Then one morning when it was about 5 below my Guy popped a hole in it with a hammer.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

This is how I prefer my block to be stacked.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

HgWhiz said:


> This is how I prefer my block to be stacked.


i prefer horizontal stack,8 horizontally running south,then 6 horizontally running east,4 running west,2 running north..so you sort of distribute weight...if its exterior,plywood is a must and i find horizontally its just easier to grab,


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*mixers*

I have been using 2 products from SPECCO INDUSTRIES to keep mixers clean with great success------MACHINE COAT R-10 & CEMENT BUSTER C-50 . SPECCO can be reached at 630-257-5060.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I like to use scaffold at all times if there is room. Or else a bench. i don't like material on the ground. It takes time to bend down and pick things up. With scaffold or a bench material and mud and tools are always at waist height. 

I also like my blocks laying in a horizontal position but up right would make sense if I were to butter the block I'm installing rather than the block I just installed. But I guess you can imagine which style I prefer. Also horizontally I stack 4-8" block 3 high on one side of my board and 3 stacked 3 high on the other side. That gives me 21 block on my board. I try to lay about blocks per scaffold section and do about 4 courses before moving up. It's not perfect but it's the best system i've tried yet.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

A lot also has to do with what size block you laying really...from my experience,I havent felt too comfortable with too many 8 inch blocks on scaffold level plus myself plus mud...


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

an 8" block weighs 35lbs +/-. 20 of them weigh 700lbs + some mud and your up to 750lbs. I feel confident on platforms being able to take that weight. And a course comes off fairly quick so your down about 175 lbs pretty quick. The platforms are 20"x80" or 11sqft and can take 70lbs/sqft so 770lbs. Add in a safety factor of .5 and the platform can support over a 1/2 ton. I stick to 770lbs tho

Think of this. how often have you seen forks loading a pallet of brick onto 2 platforms. I've seen it a thousand times. A pallet of brick weighs over 2000lbs, so each platform is taking over 1000. The 1 or 2 labias to unload and your at at 1250lbs per platform. More than half again my load with blocks


----------



## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

Diamond D. said:


> I'm in the same boat and have been meaning to pose this question for some time now.
> But, since Hg brought back his thread, I thought I would reiterate Jomama's query.
> Maybe, they're more in use now, three years later.
> 
> ...


I actually bought a Crown with the plastic drum about a year ago. Can't speak for other brands, but I prefer it now to the steel barrels we had before. I had no problem paying more for it IF it would save the laborer time cleaning it everyday, which it has. Also, the thing is darn light at the tongue for an 8 cu ft. mixer. We have a steel 8 cu ft. Stone as well, and we can't mix more than 2 bags in it, where the Crown can mix 3. The paddles don't run directly against the plastic drum (it would wear the drum out fast I suspect) so you do waste probably 1/4 to a 1/2 a batch every day, but you can mix pea-stone grout due to the gap.

We'll see how this mixer holds up over five to ten years, but so far I like it..............:thumbsup:


----------



## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

We always stack block flat (horizontally) on the ground with the tops always up (telling the laborer's it will cost them a buck everytime you find one upside down helps) and we toss the first one on it's side if it's muddy. As for height, 3 high for the first few courses, then 4-5 high for the rest of the wall. We almost always set scaffold at 6 courses and raise every 2 courses after that, 3 courses max.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

That's a lot of moving up. If you have the labour force or the equipment to move material that would be great.


----------



## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

dom-mas said:


> That's a lot of moving up. If you have the labour force or the equipment to move material that would be great.


We usually move foot plank only the first time, and then footers & material the next lift. Takes a minute or two to lift the foot plank using outriggers, and saves alot more than that by always being at the optimal height. I'll try to take some pictures of the scaffolding we use and post them later.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

With block I don't mind laying between my knees and chest, Although the last course probably is a bit slower because I have to use 2 hands to lay the block, but my one hand is still holding my trowel so it's not that much. I don't think I could move my foot planks without moving material. It just wouldn't feel "right"


----------



## Diamond D. (Nov 12, 2009)

jomama said:


> I had no problem paying more for it IF it would save the laborer time cleaning it everyday, which it has. The paddles don't run directly against the plastic drum (it would wear the drum out fast I suspect) so you do waste probably 1/4 to a 1/2 a batch every day.


So how do you clean it? Does it just, easily peel away from the drum, with a light scraping?
That 1/4-1/2 batch must get fairly hard by the end of the day.
And I guess the paddles are no different. Clean as usual.



> We'll see how this mixer holds up over five to ten years, but so far I like it..............:thumbsup:


That was my concern, like I said, I've seen some pretty rough poly pans much younger than that.

Although, I guess it's really about, how you treat your equipment.


As far as block goes, I butter on the wall with the bed scrapings, so I like to stack my block. 8's, usually 6 high and 6-8 between pans is the norm.
Even on scaffold planks. :shifty: 
I hate it when they are upside down, and I always point it out.
They usually catch on and correct it pretty quick.
But, I really like the dollar idea, I'm going to use it.

D.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

HgWhiz said:


> This is how I prefer my block to be stacked.


The significance of this particular style of stocking out is that you can butter one side (the outside head joint) of all six blocks required to fill in one scaffold length, with only ONE trial of mud. You use the mud that squeezes out of the bed joint to butter the inside head joint. If you use blocks for mud board stands you can appreciate the fact that there are no mud board blocks left over to lift up the next level of scaffold. I believe this style could be even more useful if you get a labor to spread and butter the block for you. If that is the case then I recommend buttering both ears of the block so that you don’t even need your trial.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Trial? Trowel?


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

HG, that is the best method to achieve early carpel tunnel syndrome that I have ever seen.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> Trial? Trowel?


 
From time to time I misspell words that I know how to spell. 

For example:

How poisoness is mercury?


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

The significance of this particular style of stocking out is that you can butter one side (the outside head joint) of all six blocks required to fill in one scaffold length, with only ONE trial of mud. You use the mud that squeezes out of the bed joint to butter the inside head joint. If you use blocks for mud board stands you can appreciate the fact that there are no mud board blocks left over to lift up the next level of scaffold. I believe this style could be even more useful if you get a labor to spread and butter the block for you. If that is the case then I recommend buttering both ears of the block so that you don’t even need your trial. 


*The old fashioned way:*
One scaffold length requires *30* strokes per course. (12 strokes dedicated to filling the trial, 18 strokes dedicated to emptying the trial) 

*Spreading the mud for one scaffold length requires the following steps:*
Scoop, spread, scoop, spread (1.5 blocks), scoop, spread, scoop, spread (3 blocks), scoop spread, scoop, spread (4.5 blocks), scoop, spread, scoop, spread (6 blocks).

*Buttering the block for one scaffold length requires the following steps:*
Scoop, ear 1, ear 2, scoop, ear 1, ear 2, scoop, ear 1, ear 2, scoop, ear 1, ear 2, scoop, ear 1, ear 2, scoop, ear 1, ear 2. 


*Style A:*
One scaffold length requires *22* strokes per course. (12 strokes dedicated to filling the trial, 10 strokes dedicated to emptying the trial)

*Spreading the mud for one scaffold length requires the following steps:*
Scoop, spread, scoop, spread (1.5 blocks), scoop, spread, scoop, spread (3 blocks), scoop spread, scoop, spread (4.5 blocks), scoop, spread, scoop, spread (6 blocks).

*Buttering the block for one scaffold length requires the following steps:*
Scoop, 3 ears, scoop, 3 ears, ear, ear, ear, ear, ear, ear. 


*Style B:*
One scaffold length requires* 18 *strokes per course. (12 strokes dedicated to filling the trial, 6 strokes dedicated to emptying the trial)

*Spreading the mud for one scaffold length requires the following steps:*
Scoop, spread, scoop, spread (1.5 blocks), scoop, spread, scoop, spread (3 blocks), scoop spread, scoop, spread (4.5 blocks), scoop, spread, scoop, spread (6 blocks).

*Buttering the block for one scaffold length requires the following steps:*
Scoop, 3 ears, 3 ears, scoop, 3 ears, 3 ears.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

That is well and good, but the twisting motion required to both stock and lay from that position is horrible.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

Style B eliminates almost half the amount trowel strokes normally required.


----------



## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

How many masons require block with mortar beds and hand holds?

How many are one handed layers (a center web) and how many are two handed for two webs and jam the trowel between the block web and the and the finger/thumb space?

How about the "knuckle-buster" blocks with flush ends? Our good customers/mason contractors would not lay them for a 15% block cost discount.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> That is well and good, but the twisting motion required to both stock and lay from that position is horrible.


Can you elaborate a little bit. I am not sure what you mean by twisting.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I am not sure i can describe it other than to say that you have to move it from horizontal to vertical to stock it and from vertical to horizontal to lay it. You save a few strokes of the 3# trowel at the cost of twisting a 30# block twice. Your wrist will understand.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

concretemasonry said:


> How many masons require block with mortar beds and hand holds?
> 
> How many are one handed layers (a center web) and how many are two handed for two webs and jam the trowel between the block web and the and the finger/thumb space?
> 
> How about the "knuckle-buster" blocks with flush ends? Our good customers/mason contractors would not lay them for a 15% block cost discount.



Is this a poll? If so, 1 handed but only for 8" or smaller. 10's i can do 1 handed maybe till lunch, not after. What I don't like about the "knuckle busters" is the added weight. I make sure to lay the flat end against a webbed end so there's room for my fingers if I need to. But they are heavier, and I lose steam the more i have to lay.

I've only seen 3 celled blocks in pictures


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Tscarborough said:


> I am not sure i can describe it other than to say that you have to move it from horizontal to vertical to stock it and from vertical to horizontal to lay it. You save a few strokes of the 3# trowel at the cost of twisting a 30# block twice. Your wrist will understand.


I agree with you Tscar...not to mention that stacking blocks vertically decreases amount of blocks you can put per "pyramid" therefore forcing you to put extra pyramid every 3 feet or so.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Not for the labourer, they carry them vertically anyway. And if you work 2 handed, the first hand tips the block into the horizontal. I don't think I'll switch though because I work off scaffold most times and that wouldn't work.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Not for the laboure


I got a pulley and two labourers..one on the ground another one on scaffold level i am on...block per bucket,or mud; i get them way faster than walking them up or any other method.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

If your laborers are carrying them vertically they are beating your block to pieces. They build in handles for a reason.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

TheItalian204 said:


> I agree with you Tscar...not to mention that stacking blocks vertically decreases amount of blocks you can put per "pyramid" therefore forcing you to put extra pyramid every 3 feet or so.


We can only go four foot lifts, then we pour concrete. My pyramid has 36 blocks. 36 Blocks lays one scaffold length, four feet high.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> Not for the labourer, they carry them vertically anyway. And if you work 2 handed, the first hand tips the block into the horizontal. I don't think I'll switch though because I work off scaffold most times and that wouldn't work.


Why wouldn't it work. I have done it *ON *scaffold.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

HgWhiz said:


> We can only go four foot lifts, then we pour concrete. My pyramid has 36 blocks. 36 Blocks lays one scaffold length, four feet high.


so you stacked 36 blocks on top of each other like you demonstrated on picture on scaffolding level?


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> If your laborers are carrying them vertically they are beating your block to pieces. They build in handles for a reason.


The handle is for the masons. It is possible to carry them vertically without damaging them.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

The top of the pyramid is what 48" high, from my waist 48" is over my head.

And TScarborough. The labe carries a block by the outer web in each hand. Grab it at the outside and swing onto pile, or carry with weight hanging down rather than out. I certainly didn't invent that.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

You can carry them vertically with no problem, it is when you swing them onto the stockpile that they chip.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

I really thought that reasoning behind this topic was to compare strategies not to argue whose is better,but I guess everything boils down to that again :laughing:


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

While on the subject of stocking out. I prefer having the materials stocked out in advance if possible. Six men working in unison can stock out 12 scaffold lengths without having to walk back and forth (1 man per 2 scaffold lengths). In fact, each man remains in one spot. If they do it properly each man will have one foot that never leaves the ground (the pivot foot).


----------



## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

The strategies involve the design of the specific units made and the way they are delivered to preserve quality and minimizer handling problems in addition to individual contractor preference.

Block are normally made in a "mold box" that has individual compartments that can accept different mold parts to make different size and shaped units. A typical traditional mold box can make 12-2x8x16 units, 6-4x8x16 units, 3-8x8x16 units, 2-10x8x16 units, 2-12x8x16 units, 1-14x8x16 unit with either one 8x8x16 unit or 10x18x16 unit, or one 16x8x16 unit with 1-8x8x16 unit. Each unit can have many different cores shapes, configurations (1,2 or 3 cores) or features such as mortar beds, hand holds and splitting cores in addition to the end features. The possibilities are almost unlimited and each local area has different preferences.

When it comes to palletizing/packaging there are also many different possibilities. Different areas prefer different packaging methods. Brick oreient markets seem tp prefer plastic wrap, but colder markets may br large and more block oriented and most contractors do not want plastic because of the safety/slipping problem with snow, so wood pallets are preferred or strapped package are used to provide some waste straps to trip over. 

The wood pallet allows more customization in cubing/palletizing patterns depending on the area contractor's preferences. When I was in the block business, were used 48x48 wood pallets, all units (except 2", 3" and 4" thick) were stacked with the cores vertically for moisture control and alternate layers forming an interlock. For the winter, the top layer was stacked with the cores horizontally to form a "snow cap" and keep the snow and ice out.

A typical block producer can have hundreds or thousand of different type/size of units in stock if he provides a range of what contractors want. At one time, the company I worked for had 4,000,000 block in one yard to build the inventory up over the winter and be ready to deplete the inventory in the summer. Generally, all block were made with hand holds on the webs and mortar bed on the face shells with square cores to minimize weight and the hand holds and mortar beds were on the top. If we did not turn the block to have wider areas on top we immediately heard about it from the contractor within a few minutes of the block hitting the job site.

There are thousands of different shapes of block made in the U.S. I also worked for a production equipment/mold manufacturer. We had over 1,000 different mold box designs in our current files just for 8x8x16 units. The international market demanded some more sophisticated block shapes and features and they were made to metric dimensions (except 4x8x16 units).

As a producer, we supplied a large sound wall project of over 400,000-12x8x16 split colored units. Before bidding, a contractor asked us to make small quantities of different block with different features to be evaluated by superintendents, foremen and masons to use before bidding. We made prototype molds out of polyureathane, one day, delivered the cured block the next day and that evening they were used on mock-up walls to determine which gave the best productivity. Then they got together at the end of a week of evaluation and tell the estimators what the productivity would be, so the job could be bid. The contractor recognized that they could not do it just like every other job and had to change strategies.

Contractors can be willing to change strategies. We were supplying 4" and 8" block to a 50 story high rise where traffic and available crane tipe was limited. To minimize the delays and keep production, the contractor request us to fabricate special forks to pick up 2-48"x48" pallets at one and deliver at night when the cranes were available and the traffic was less. - You adjust strategies and do what makes sense.

I probably should not admit to it, but we did allow the drivers to boom a pallet of block up on a good, stable scaffold. We did cut off the tipping of the drivers by the contractors, but the drivers were paid a "bounty" for returning pallets and most drivers had nice new pick-ups paid for by bounty money earned when they had spare time on a job.


----------



## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

> it is when you swing them onto the stockpile that they chip.


Wow, years ago when I was a helper you were expected to learn how to stack without chipping. With just the right amout of swing, you can land a block softly even up over your head. 

And it's interesting the mention of handles. I never heard of that till I moved to the west coast. Out here guys will pick up a block with one hand then butter both ears of it manipulating it to the vertical, then back to horizontal to lay in the wall. Man, talk about carpel-tunnel!

I was taught years ago to keep the line on the finished side - usually towards you - lay with two hands, and butter the block you just laid. 

Even with the "handles" they have in the blocks here these days I usually still do it the way I learned except sometimes with double open end blocks.

Dave


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I was working with a kid (sub) this passed fall who insisted on the line bieng on the outside when the block got above belly height, said he didn't want to have to lift over the line. That course stuck out like a sore thumb.All the blocks were slightly twisted, out of plumb and overhanging a bit. He couldn't see his line properly. I still got paid but I'll never do it again.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> I was working with a kid (sub) this passed fall who insisted on the line bieng on the outside when the block got above belly height, said he didn't want to have to lift over the line. That course stuck out like a sore thumb.All the blocks were slightly twisted, out of plumb and overhanging a bit. He couldn't see his line properly. I still got paid but I'll never do it again.


I had same sort of experience...say,isnt it really up to you to let kid know how you want it if hes just sub?


----------



## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

dom-mas said:


> I was working with a kid (sub) this passed fall who insisted on the line bieng on the outside when the block got above belly height, said he didn't want to have to lift over the line. That course stuck out like a sore thumb.All the blocks were slightly twisted, out of plumb and overhanging a bit. He couldn't see his line properly. I still got paid but I'll never do it again.


We always try to lay an outside line, unless we're limited on which side we can set scaffold on a splitface wall, in which case you're stuck with the line on the non-rocked side. I think the problem with lipping block comes when you're accustomed to laying with an inside line and have to switch. When you always lay with an outside line, it becomes second nature to sight your block in plumb. Or, maybe I'm just not as picky with block wrork........


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Yeah i could have been all firm and hardnosed about where the line went but I wanted to show him. similar to how I showed him when he was using a twig on his lead and thing were 1/4" out of line real quick at his end. I also didn't want him to walk cause I needed the help. 

And no, I'm not real picky about block at all. I care about doing it well enough to pass and get paid, better if possible but not something I stay up at night about .
I don't do very much, probably only 1000 on average in a year, some years more, some not at all, I do prefer it to brick though. I did labour for a mason of german heritage though who did a lot of block and he was VERY particular abou how he wanted things done. In my experience so far, his way has been best that I've come across. 

Like anything, you get used to what you know and it's when things change then there's a learning curve.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

I am always in to learn something new...I havent done much block work in past year though...maybe under 1k...I was supposed to get big project,but customer bailed last second due to financing issues and left me with cool 2k for doing nothing(termination of contract).

But still,I would love to tear into it.

I find its good to enlighten ones who know how to do only ONE WAY,because that gives them option of doing it other way and most of the time way I do is usually much easier than theirs.


----------



## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

JoMomma . I do think you're right. The guys out here in the west mostly want a line on the outside. I think it's part of that one-handed thing  

But they learned their trade that way and lay them fine with the line on the outside. But don't get me started on some other stuff, like they'll build a foot scaffold, put the wall up 8 or 9 courses, then build the rest of the wall on a regular scaffold with the planks starting the wall out at your toes.
Dave


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*line*

The question of line in or out is not so much the criteria of blocks lipping or hacking as is the care in laying them. I remember a new guy (first day working for me) asking what side do i want looking good. I said both, and if you don't know what you are doing,don't try doing it here. To ensure good results on block if condusive,we snap a line on concrete, mark out Both ends of head joints with pencil,and spray lines with verathane clear varnish. The lay out can then get rained on etc.and still remain. At this point six guys can jump in cause every place can be a starting place. I require the first two courses to be cross leveled and EVERYONE to lay the same distance from line(just a crack of dayl light between block and line. Every four feet a plumb mark is placed on unit layed. All joints are struck both sides. Even those below grade ( though not twice or brushed ) This will provide you a wall you will have no trouble selling to a architect.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

fjn said:


> The question of line in or out is not so much the criteria of blocks lipping or hacking as is the care in laying them. I remember a new guy (first day working for me) asking what side do i want looking good. I said both, and if you don't know what you are doing,don't try doing it here. To ensure good results on block if condusive,we snap a line on concrete, mark out Both ends of head joints with pencil,and spray lines with verathane clear varnish. The lay out can then get rained on etc.and still remain. At this point six guys can jump in cause every place can be a starting place. I require the first two courses to be cross leveled and EVERYONE to lay the same distance from line(just a crack of dayl light between block and line. Every four feet a plumb mark is placed on unit layed. All joints are struck both sides. Even those below grade ( though not twice or brushed ) This will provide you a wall you will have no trouble selling to a architect.


fjn,thanks,thats same way I do it..that varathane trick was taught to me by some old-timer and I thought that was a great idea...also spray-paint is another way to do it.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I was taught with the line on the inside and in Florida learned to do it with the line on the outside. If I can help it , i will never put the line on the inside again. It really makes a difference not only in speed but its so much less aggravation with it on the outside.

In about 1 motion I can slap mud on one head, then slap it on the block and guide it right in place. No navigating the line with the trowel, lifting the block over the line, banging into it- nothing.

Of coarse to get the full appreciation of the line on the outside you have to stack your blocks flat.


----------



## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

> In about 1 motion I can slap


No need to try to sell us JBM  But I can tell you those of us who keep the line on the finished side of the wall think it's the best way too.

I know it's easier not to have to lift over the line, but I learned to do it so long ago that I don't give it a thought. I just think you end up with a nicer wall. 

Part of this too I think is that if you want guys to lay 12" blocks by themselves you're going to have to put the line on the outside. 
Dave


----------



## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

dbros -

In FL, very often the "finished" side is on the outside since the inside gets stripped or firred and the outside is plastered or sprayed, so variations on the outside of the masonry wall are more critical.


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*block work*

JBM I learned the trade when alot of mass walls were still being built. As a result of that era the work was done both over hand and off hand,in most cases we had few choices on line position. From that perspective when block became more prevalent the line was USUALLY placed on the side that was considered more as the "finished" side. The theory on that was the line provided a better guide to allow for more accurate placing of masonry blocks. Some manufactures produced blocks that were like fba brick,the tolorences negated the chance to have both faces faced off accurately. Those companies fell by the way side and now the block is like a fbx brick. Very exacting,allowing both faces to be laid with no lipping or hacking on either side. The bottom line each era and region has their methods.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

dbrons said:


> No need to try to sell us JBM  But I can tell you those of us who keep the line on the finished side of the wall think it's the best way too.
> 
> I know it's easier not to have to lift over the line, but I learned to do it so long ago that I don't give it a thought. I just think you end up with a nicer wall.
> 
> ...


I hear ya. I learned like that as well. I just wanted to share that I found the way they do it in Florida much more comfortable, less strain and faster.


----------



## CanCritter (Feb 9, 2010)

dbrons said:


> , we just have our experience - what works for us.
> 
> Dave



agreed


----------



## MasonryToronto (Oct 31, 2012)

Tommy C said:


> Confucious says, "Mason who cut stone without dust mask and water, wake up with black lung".


Well thats a good one :thumbsup: never heard it


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

I shake my head when I see a blayer use all-thread that is like four foot long.


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

Then I see a blayer using one that is two feet and rejoice, hitherto them reaching the top and sliding it all the way out to the very top course. :/


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

Marking basic block cuts, with only a tape measure.


----------



## wazez (Oct 25, 2008)

HgWhiz said:


> I shake my head when I see a blayer use all-thread that is like four foot long.


I guess I'm not following you......


----------



## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

wazez said:


> I guess I'm not following you......


A lot of times I see bricklayers plumb 4ft long, 3/8ths allthread to assist them in keeping a straight expansion joint. That would be fine if they didn't slide it up to the very top course after reaching the top of it.


----------

