# How To Upgrade Home Electrical Service



## csmith1281 (Apr 28, 2016)

I live in a mobile home built in 1984. I currently have 100 amp service and need to upgrade--probably to 200 amps. Everything in my home is electric. We have no gas service whatsoever. 

I have been doing some research and have learned that I probably need to replace everything from the meter to the house. 

Question 1 is when, if ever, it is necessary or appropriate to replace the meter? 

I went to look at my meter and main breaker, and I don't know what gauge wires are coming into my house from the 100 amp breaker outside, but it looks like they are the same gauge as the wires coming from the street. So that begs the question: 

Question 2: if my SE cables only provide 100 amp service and they are the same size as the ones coming from the street, do I need to call the power company and ask them to replace those cables as well?


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## csmith1281 (Apr 28, 2016)

My meter says "CL200" on it. Does that mean it's rated for up to 200A?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

The meter, as well as the line from your house to the pole, belong to your electric utility. Whether they replace those is up to them.

Upgrading a service is far from a DIY-type job.


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## rblakes1 (Jan 8, 2015)

I can't imagine a mobile home having enough room for all the things that would require a 200 amp service. Are you sure you don't need to just replace the current panel with a larger, 100 amp one? 

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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

csmith1281 said:


> ....... I don't know what gauge wires are coming into my house from the 100 amp breaker outside, but it looks like they are the same gauge as the wires coming from the street...........


Your utility doesn't play using the same rulebook as electrcians. They can use much smaller wires than we are required to use.

In addition, the current installation may not be acceptable under modern rules. In other words, your sub-standard wiring system may be 'grandfathered' in.


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

Wait till you go to replace the outlets and switch's


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## Peter_C (Nov 26, 2014)

rblakes1 said:


> I can't imagine a mobile home having enough room for all the things that would require a 200 amp service


Indoor farming? :whistling


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

Peter_C said:


> Indoor farming? :whistling


Would that be a cash crop? :whistling


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## csmith1281 (Apr 28, 2016)

So here's the situation. I just completed a drywall finishing job and a Jacuzzi tub installation for a customer, and they offered to give me a 15,000 BTU 220 V window air-conditioning unit. I thought my panel was maxed out, so I wanted to upgrade the service. During the winter I run a 1500 W freestanding radiator heaters to supplement my 1500 W infrared heater. And in the summertime we always run window air-conditioning units. Everything I have operated up to this point has run off of 110 V, but I have had problems with breakers tripping and even plugs burning. 

So I went to investigate my panel, and it appears I have a 100 amp main breaker in the panel that is redundant because I have a 100 amp main next to the meter outside as well. I'm thinking I could remove that breaker and install one circuit that could run all of my heating and cooling needs all year long, but I'm not sure if all the other breakers that are there are pulling too much juice as it is.

I'll just post a picture of what is. My desired end state is to be able to run all my heating and cooling appliances separately from all my lighting, wall outlets, and kitchen circuits.










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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

csmith1281 said:


> ......I thought my panel was maxed out, so I wanted to upgrade the service. .........


Performing a proper load calculation is the only way to know what you're up against and what you'll need to do.



csmith1281 said:


> .......So I went to investigate my panel, and it appears I have a 100 amp main breaker in the panel that is redundant because I have a 100 amp main next to the meter outside as well. I'm thinking I could remove that breaker and install one circuit that could run all of my heating and cooling needs all year long, ....


You'll still have a 100a service.



csmith1281 said:


> ...... My desired end state is to be able to run all my heating and cooling appliances separately from all my lighting, wall outlets, and kitchen circuits. .........


The number of circuits is not relevant to the required service size. Again, we're back to a service calculation.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

rblakes1 said:


> I can't imagine a mobile home having enough room for all the things that would require a 200 amp service. Are you sure you don't need to just replace the current panel with a larger, 100 amp one?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


One of the mobile homes I've worked in. 9' lids, they aren't little anyone.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> One of the mobile homes I've worked in. 9' lids, they aren't little anyone.



Krikey.... I'v seen *RVs *that require 200 amps.


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## csmith1281 (Apr 28, 2016)

[/QUOTE]You'll still have a 100a service.[/QUOTE]


But how can I determine whether the panel as it is currently set up can receive more circuits/deliver more power into the house without being overloaded?




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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

csmith1281 said:


> But how can I determine whether the panel as it is currently set up can receive more circuits/deliver more power into the house without being overloaded?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Load calculation.


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## rblakes1 (Jan 8, 2015)

Californiadecks said:


> One of the mobile homes I've worked in. 9' lids, they aren't little anyone.


 is that a triple wide? 

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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

rblakes1 said:


> is that a triple wide?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yep, I do the decks on those when they are brought in New. 5 parks to be exact. That one sold for 360k.


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## rblakes1 (Jan 8, 2015)

Californiadecks said:


> Yep, I do the decks on those when they are brought in New. 5 parks to be exact. That one sold for 360k.



And here I was going to guess it sold for twice what I paid for my house lol. I feel a little better knowing it was only 100k more.

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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

I'm no electrician, so correct me if I'm wrong, but in overly simple terms, there's no reason for a bigger service if you're not tripping the main 100A breaker.

Seems like you just need a bigger panel and more circuits.

I once built a 1100sf home and the owner's know it all dad questioned the 100a service. Gas range, water and dryer. Meanwhile the house he built the other daughter had a 120A instant water heater, an electric range and electric dryer, yet he failed to understand why my house was less likely to have issues.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Golden view said:


> I'm no electrician, so correct me if I'm wrong, but in overly simple terms, there's no reason for a bigger service if you're not tripping the main 100A breaker.
> 
> Seems like you just need a bigger panel and more circuits.
> 
> I once built a 1100sf home and the owner's know it all dad questioned the 100a service. Gas range, water and dryer. Meanwhile the house he built the other daughter had a 120A instant water heater, an electric range and electric dryer, yet he failed to understand why my house was less likely to have issues.


Not uncommon to see 3000+ square foot homes here with 100A services.

Gas heat, gas stove, gas dryer, gas water heater etc.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

My house is all electric which sucks but the only time I have ever blown the main is when I miswired an outlet.

From the looks of your panel you need a bigger panel not a 200 amp service.

If you are determined to have 200a service start by calling your power company, if they say its not happening you can stop wasting your time dreaming about 200a service.

If they say it can happen great, from there hire an electrician to handle your side of the utility and your all set.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

SectorSecurity said:


> My house is all electric which sucks but the only time I have ever blown the main is when I miswired an outlet.
> 
> From the looks of your panel you need a bigger panel not a 200 amp service.
> 
> ...


Utilities don't give a rodent's rectum whether your service is 40 amps, 60 amps, 100 amps, 200 amps, 400 amps or 600 amps. Nor do they have much say in the matter.

All they care about is whether the cash register they stick into it gets paid.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

What is on the 50 amp breaker a stove? Please don't tell me it has electrical outlets on it.


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## csmith1281 (Apr 28, 2016)

SectorSecurity said:


> What is on the 50 amp breaker a stove? Please don't tell me it has electrical outlets on it.




It's the range. 


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

SectorSecurity said:


> What is on the 50 amp breaker a stove? Please don't tell me it has electrical outlets on it.


What's wrong with 50 amp receptacles?:blink:


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## Peter_C (Nov 26, 2014)

480sparky said:


> What's wrong with 50 amp receptacles?:blink:


Like this one? Works well for smaller welders and plasma cutters too.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Utilities don't give a rodent's rectum whether your service is 40 amps, 60 amps, 100 amps, 200 amps, 400 amps or 600 amps. Nor do they have much say in the matter.
> 
> All they care about is whether the cash register they stick into it gets paid.


You cant get a residential service here larger than 200 amps without providing the poco with a load calc to show that its necessary


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I have a 60 amp service. We run baseboards and a space heater in winter and two ac units in summer, all electric house and have no problems at all.

We will blow the main lighting circuit if we run the microwave at full power, but that is because 80 percent of the house lighting/plugs are on one 15 amp circuit.

Old house.

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## csmith1281 (Apr 28, 2016)

After more research I've decided I can make it work with the 100 amp service. I bought a 20-space, 100-amp panel. (My existing panel has 12 spaces, and the main takes up two of those--the new panel has a built-in main breaker plus 20 spaces--so I'm getting 12 new spaces!) I plan to run a new circuit dedicated to the window unit AC using a 20A double pole breaker, 12/3 wire, and a 20A-250V single outlet. I am also going to install a 20A-110V outlet on the same circuit next to the AC outlet to run my 1500W infrared heater off of in the winter. In the future I am planning to run another circuit just like this one with three outlets--one in each bedroom--to run my 1500W radiator heaters (pictured above). 

As I was planning all this, it occurred to me that perhaps the reason I burned the plugs on the radiators (pictured above) is that the heaters were running on 20A circuits with 15A outlets--so the circuits may have been fine but the receptacle itself was overloaded. This has happened on three different occasions with three different plugs, and I was able to verify that this was the scenario every time--20A circuit & 15A receptacle. Does that make sense--and is that what would have caused these outlets to burn? I had a licensed electrician replace the first one that burned because I was renting the house out and lived out of state--and he replaced the burned 15A receptacle with a 20A receptacle.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

csmith1281 said:


> As I was planning all this, it occurred to me that perhaps the reason I burned the plugs on the radiators (pictured above) is that the heaters were running on 20A circuits with 15A outlets--so the circuits may have been fine but the receptacle itself was overloaded.. Does that make sense--and is that what would have caused these outlets to burn?


I'd guess that it was because your 15A receptacles were either worn, defective, or sub-standard. I seriously doubt that your space heater pulls 20 amps. 

I see this done with temporary power situations every now and then and they never have any issues. Of course this is the wrong way to do it but people get away with it because it's highly unlikely that anyone will be pulling 20 amps through a single receptacle.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

Have you ever got a tester and mapped outlets to breakers?

For all you know that outlet could be tied into a 30 or 50 amp breaker.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SectorSecurity said:


> Have you ever got a tester and mapped outlets to breakers?
> 
> For all you know that outlet could be tied into a 30 or 50 amp breaker.


But the receptacle says 15amps. :laughing:


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> But the receptacle says 15amps. :laughing:


It wouldn't be the first time I have seen someone short cut something and tie into a 30 or 50 amp breaker.


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## csmith1281 (Apr 28, 2016)

tedanderson said:


> I'd guess that it was because your 15A receptacles were either worn, defective, or sub-standard. I seriously doubt that your space heater pulls 20 amps.
> 
> 
> 
> I see this done with temporary power situations every now and then and they never have any issues. Of course this is the wrong way to do it but people get away with it because it's highly unlikely that anyone will be pulling 20 amps through a single receptacle.




But if there were other appliances running on the same circuit, wouldn't the 20 A be running through that receptacle to get to the other receptacles on the circuit? That's why I was thinking that could be the problem. No, that heater does not pull 20 A by itself. But with all the other things on the circuit, it's probably did pull more than 15, which is what the receptacle was rated for.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

csmith1281 said:


> But if there were other appliances running on the same circuit, wouldn't the 20 A be running through that receptacle to get to the other receptacles on the circuit? T.........


If the installer didn't pigtail, yes. But even 15a receptacles are rated for 20a feed-through.

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## csmith1281 (Apr 28, 2016)

Well this is what I have come up with so far. I discovered that I cannot put a 110 V 20 amp outlet on the same circuit as the 20 amp 220 V outlet because I am using wire that only has a black white and ground. Both the black and the white are hot for the 220 V outlet, so there would be no neutral to connect to the 110 V outlet. I'm guessing if I used 12/3 I could have used the white as a neutral for the 110 V outlet and simply bypassed the 220 V outlet with the white and supplied that outlet with the black and red.










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## csmith1281 (Apr 28, 2016)

SectorSecurity said:


> Have you ever got a tester and mapped outlets to breakers?




Yes I have mapped out my circuits. I've got some really weird stuff going on. I have two wires coming out of one breaker, and I have no idea what the second wire goes to. I also discovered in the process of installing the new box that an outdoor receptacle is dangling in my crawlspace, but it is not hot with all the breakers on. It's right beneath where I do have an outdoor receptacle on my back porch, so I was thinking maybe that was the Phantom wire in my breaker, but I tested it and that's not it. I also have a 15 amp circuit with my laundry circuit, two bathroom GFI's, and an outdoor light on it. That breaker actually had two wires on it, so I was able to dedicate the breaker to the laundry circuit and move the GFIs to another circuit. 


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Install a Gas hot water heater and gas stove (with a auto vent), Use the freed up panel capacity to run the toys....

Mark Two: install a 200 Amp OUTDOOR panel undern 200Amp? meter, between house panel and added disconnects to 240Volt AC plugs and SPA pumps and heaters.....


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

csmith1281 said:


> Well this is what I have come up with so far. I discovered that I cannot put a 110 V 20 amp outlet on the same circuit as the 20 amp 220 V outlet because I am using wire that only has a black white and ground. Both the black and the white are hot for the 220 V outlet, so there would be no neutral to connect to the 110 V outlet. I'm guessing if I used 12/3 I could have used the white as a neutral for the 110 V outlet and simply bypassed the 220 V outlet with the white and supplied that outlet with the black and red.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Im guessing" and electrical installations dont usually turn out well.


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## csmith1281 (Apr 28, 2016)

TxElectrician said:


> "Im guessing" and electrical installations dont usually turn out well.




Good thing I didn't install that wire then!


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## mako1 (Sep 1, 2013)

csmith1281 said:


> After more research I've decided I can make it work with the 100 amp service. I bought a 20-space, 100-amp panel. (My existing panel has 12 spaces, and the main takes up two of those--the new panel has a built-in main breaker plus 20 spaces--so I'm getting 12 new spaces!) I plan to run a new circuit dedicated to the window unit AC using a 20A double pole breaker, 12/3 wire, and a 20A-250V single outlet. I am also going to install a 20A-110V outlet on the same circuit next to the AC outlet to run my 1500W infrared heater off of in the winter. In the future I am planning to run another circuit just like this one with three outlets--one in each bedroom--to run my 1500W radiator heaters (pictured above).
> 
> As I was planning all this, it occurred to me that perhaps the reason I burned the plugs on the radiators (pictured above) is that the heaters were running on 20A circuits with 15A outlets--so the circuits may have been fine but the receptacle itself was overloaded. This has happened on three different occasions with three different plugs, and I was able to verify that this was the scenario every time--20A circuit & 15A receptacle. Does that make sense--and is that what would have caused these outlets to burn? I had a licensed electrician replace the first one that burned because I was renting the house out and lived out of state--and he replaced the burned 15A receptacle with a 20A receptacle.


 I had two of those oil filled radiators in my finishing room for a couple years because I could not have anything that sparked.Figured out they were about the most inefficient thing I could have.Cost me $100 a month to run the two of them in a 400 SF finishing room.


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