# Lost a bid by 100k. Now owner wants me to fix all the problems.



## cevinklark (Dec 27, 2011)

I just wanted to post what happened to me because I know we all deal with these type of situations at times.

A local doctor was building a new building for his family practice. 
He got bids from 3 people. Myself, Lowballer, and Contractor A.

We all had a bid sheet and plans laying out generally what was wanted. It was up to the contractors to determine how to implement the build. eg. block, beams, roof layout.

We came in at around 320k. Contractor A came in at 350k. Lowballer came in at 220k!!!!!!!$##@[email protected]#

It was impossible to be that cheap. I checked periodically to see how he was possibly doing it that cheap. The ground was supposed to be built up because it was in a flood plane. He just layed block up to where it needed to be. He used 2x8 floor joist where it should have 2x12. I can't remember the spans, I just remember I planned on 2x12 joists. The block on one side was supposed to be 10" block and he used 8". This was just what I could see without going in and looking around.

Now for the good part. The owner wants me to fix a bunch of problems with the building. He didn't go into alot of detail, but I know it has settling problems, and squeaky floors.

I think I might charge him 100 thousand to fix it. I think he deserves it.


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## stombaugh85 (Jul 23, 2012)

I run into this all the time! Just not those high of numbers. Dont give him any breaks on the price.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

100k plus pain and suffering...sounds fair.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

He's probably not going to pay you either..


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

In a way I feel sorry for these people. They are ignorant and they just want to save a buck....

But on the other hand, even when I was a young tradesman scraping by, I bought quality. I couldnt afford a new car for my wife, but researched and paid cash for a good car, not a clunker. I bought good tools, if I bought my wife a watch or a set of earings, they were quality. I have no patience for cheap chit.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

You would probably need to charge more than $100k to fix it.

A $220k project with $100k in repairs doesn't equal a $320k quality project.


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## littlefred811 (Dec 16, 2012)

Estimate accurately, and fairly to you, then add 35%.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Have him demolish the building, then present him with your revised proposal...$320K


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

Whaddaya call the guy who graduates last in his class in medical school?








Doctor.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

I would charge fairly, but at the walk through make a comment like, "I wondered how he was so much cheaper than me. I guess we found out!"


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Be professional no matter how satisfying it might be to make a snide comment.

Evaluate the rest of the project, give a fair price with profit.

Or...tell him to go piss up a rope.

Andy.


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## PCI (Jun 8, 2012)

Be the pro that you are! That is why he came back to you! Charge him fairly, no discount or up-charge, and you will be his Superman. Let him tell the world how you saved the day. 
Of course you can always hint or tell him how great you are (and tell all you friends) so you get all the referrals.

One step further is have him agree to a press release after completion on how you saved the day and run with it.


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## iceman61 (Jul 26, 2007)

Be fair with him since he did come to you; but also let him know that he is putting a Band-Aid on a gun shot wound, since the other contractor cut alot of corners.


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## glkirk (Nov 27, 2011)

Don't they have a permitting process there in WV? Where the block and joist size would have been scrutinized in their office?
I'm sure I don't need to tell you this, but; be careful and take your time before you get involved in this.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

Don't even talk to the guy, let him learn a lesson.


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## cevinklark (Dec 27, 2011)

glkirk said:


> Don't they have a permitting process there in WV? Where the block and joist size would have been scrutinized in their office?
> I'm sure I don't need to tell you this, but; be careful and take your time before you get involved in this.


No permitting process in my county. They just tell ya not to build close to the property line. 

The state fire marshal does do his job though on fire protection.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

Work is work if you need it. If you don't need it, this isn't a job you should mind walking away from. If you have no reason to doubt the Dr.'s business ethics I can't see a reason to walk away.

I would suggest that everything you touch be completely documented with the building owner's signature.

I would also do your best to work off of a retainer. _ e.g._ If you agree to $50K worth of work get him to pay you in advance draws of $10K so you are never behind. Allow for yourself to withdraw from the project at anytime the terms are not met.

I would feel strongly that a considerable effort should be put into the contract documents.. If you get even a little loose in this respect chances are above average you will come to regret it.


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## cevinklark (Dec 27, 2011)

Mr Latone said:


> I would suggest that everything you touch be completely documented with the building owner's signature.
> 
> I would feel strongly that a considerable effort should be put into the contract documents.. If you get even a little loose in this respect chances are above average you will come to regret it.


Good point. I wouldn't want to get blamed for the fist guy's work.

Also, I see a couple comments about not getting paid. Is this something that happens a lot in these situations?


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

> Also, I see a couple comments about not getting paid. Is this something that happens a lot in these situations?


Yes.

We do rip-out and re-do stuff occasionally. Often the customer wants it 'fixed' but since they already 'paid' for it they don't want to pay to fix it well. Then you can look bad since 'if you touched it last, you own it'. 

So, as someone else said, bid it fairly and add 35% - then keep the payments ahead of the work. I photograph EVERYTHING on these. What everything looked like before and then what we did.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

cevinklark said:


> Good point. I wouldn't want to get blamed for the fist guy's work.
> 
> Also, I see a couple comments about not getting paid. Is this something that happens a lot in these situations?


Not necessarily. What you have is a customer that has recently been 'burned'. The customer is more likely to be on the defensive. This can lead to an unreasonably tight pocket book.

I say unreasonably tight, because if the customer had been treated fairly they would more likely trust the process. As you won't really know how the customer feels it's best to be a little preemptive.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

One more thing.

It is completely possible that the Dr. is simply a cheap azz S.O.B. All the more reason to proceed with previously suggested caution.


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## SDel Prete (Jan 8, 2012)

Lets be real here. He didn't care to pay the money to have it done right in the first place. So why would he be willing to pay a lot to get it fixed. He's most likely very cheap. If your not desperate for work I say you tell him in a professional way that you can't be liable for the mistakes the lowballer made and don't feel safe touching it. Then again you could be rude and tell him he got what he paid for and to enjoy his crappy office. I would choose the first option though.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

SDel Prete said:


> Lets be real here. He didn't care to pay the money to have it done right in the first place. So why would he be willing to pay a lot to get it fixed. He's most likely very cheap. If your not desperate for work I say you tell him in a professional way that you can't be liable for the mistakes the lowballer made and don't feel safe touching it. Then again you could be rude and tell him he got what he paid for and to enjoy his crappy office. I would choose the first option though.


If you're hungry, maybe only then. This guy wanted Champagne (or at least a nice Chardonnay) but only wanted to pay for Pabst. That should tell you all you need to know about him. 

If you decide to do it, follow Amelia's advice, and photograph everything....even video with play by play.........


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## toluene_hawk (Jan 7, 2013)

Put a wedding photographer in your bid and have him follow your crew around.

Alternatively, if corners were cut, you could probably hold the previous company liable if these corners cut out of what the building code says is allowable. Prove that, and see if you can help the guy get his money back. Then you can charge him for a demolish and rebuild- which is the safest way of doing this project. You might make a friend and meet a good lawyer which may come in handy down the road.

Look at the situation from the customers perspective. He saw three bids, for the same product, and found 30% savings on the "low-ballers". How is he to know?


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## CScalf (Dec 18, 2008)

Seems to me the doc is just going up the ladder of bids. Low baller is gone, now he has moved to you, the middle guy. You do one thing wrong and yep, you guessed it, the next guy will be brought in and saying look what both of them did. If it were me, I would say sorry I am not going to touch the other guys' mistakes, but I would be glad to stick to my original price after you pay someone to completely demo what the first guy did, and we can start over.:thumbsup:


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

I would never go back to a client who decided to go with the low bidder and got burned and try to patch everything. 

The only way I would do anything is to rip it all out and start over and front load the contract with payments so when all the discoveries are made of just how bad it is you at least get paid. 

I would seriously re consider even bidding this unless your slow.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

toluene_hawk said:


> Put a wedding photographer in your bid and have him follow your crew around.
> 
> Alternatively, if corners were cut, you could probably hold the previous company liable if these corners cut out of what the building code says is allowable. Prove that, and see if you can help the guy get his money back. Then you can charge him for a demolish and rebuild- which is the safest way of doing this project. You might make a friend and meet a good lawyer which may come in handy down the road.
> 
> Look at the situation from the customers perspective. He saw three bids, for the same product, and found 30% savings on the "low-ballers". How is he to know?


Exactly the wrong process. 

The problem started with a customer unwilling to do the legwork required to get apples to apples comparison. There is no reason to believe the contractor who got the job did not provide what the customer paid for and what he was willing to pay for. Maybe the customer was unwilling to pay for what he hoped for.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I would be willing to do the repairs if I had a hole in my schedule. 

My proposal would be accompanied by a letter. The letter would explain that some things cannot be fixed. These would include improper soil preparation, inadequate block size, etc. This letter would make it clear that the work included in the proposal is not a substitute for the inadequate work performed but it is a repair of some of the work. You can guarantee the work done by you under the attached proposal will perform adequately while at the same time explaining that that work is only a part of a greater system that may not perform adequately. 

The proposal should be very specific as to what work will be performed. You could sister in micro-lams to provide adequate floor bearing capacity. This would not remedy an inadequate foundation. The same could be true of adding structure to the roof. 

You could include new finishes and repairing existing finishes with the disclaimer that the possibility of an inadequate foundation could result in future failures of these finishes for which you would not be responsible. 

The point is, offer what you can while at the same time making it clear that removing a fukc-up still leaves an abortion.


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## glkirk (Nov 27, 2011)

You had said that the other contractor used 2x8 where you called out 2x12s. Thats a big difference!
If you don't have any permitting process, you should strongly consult an engineer, (or at least figure out if it requires 2x8s or 2x12s).
Sounds like a mess in process.


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## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

loneframer said:


> Have him demolish the building, then present him with your revised proposal...$320K


Best Quote of the day :thumbsup:


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

cevinklark said:


> I just wanted to post what happened to me because I know we all deal with these type of situations at times.
> 
> A local doctor was building a new building for his family practice.
> He got bids from 3 people. Myself, Lowballer, and Contractor A.
> ...


Do you have this job? Or are you "quoting" it so he knows how much to sue the other guy with your detailed quote? 

You might be getting burned by this guy twice. I've always stayed away from coming behind anybody.


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## cevinklark (Dec 27, 2011)

glkirk said:


> You had said that the other contractor used 2x8 where you called out 2x12s. Thats a big difference!
> If you don't have any permitting process, you should strongly consult an engineer, (or at least figure out if it requires 2x8s or 2x12s).
> Sounds like a mess in process.


I just going by memory, but I think it needed 2x10, but that was the upper limits of 2x10, so I planned for 2x12. Over building is common practice around here since there are no permits.

A lot of new construction here are simple buildings. A hospital or school or things like that would definitely have engineered plans. I doubt anyone would want to build a school drawn on a bar napkin. Lol


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## cevinklark (Dec 27, 2011)

killerdecks said:


> Do you have this job? Or are you "quoting" it so he knows how much to sue the other guy with your detailed quote?
> 
> You might be getting burned by this guy twice. I've always stayed away from coming behind anybody.


Not sure. He just mentioned about fixing some things for him. I'm in no hurry to talk to him, I'm abnormally busy for winter. He can wait til next winter when I might be slow.


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## JBrzoz00 (Jan 11, 2011)

I wouldn't bother, no telling what kind of crazy hack stuff your going to run into. Once you put your hands on it you'll be liable.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

killerdecks said:


> I've always stayed away from coming behind anybody.


Words to live by:laughing:


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

i wouldn't touch it unless he agrees to an architect/engineer's inspection and given a scope of remediation. otherwise, you do what you think needs to be done, something pops up 2 weeks later, and it's still your fault, he just paid you to make the repairs. i would NEVER assume that liability. you need a professional's "opinion" on the scope of work involved.

otherwise, this doctor may introduce you to his attorney friend.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

In addition to all the other good advice already given, try reading this:

http://www.contractortalk.com/f14/can-ninja-fix-124708/


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

dayexco said:


> i wouldn't touch it unless he agrees to an architect/engineer's inspection and given a scope of remediation. otherwise, you do what you think needs to be done, something pops up 2 weeks later, and it's still your fault, he just paid you to make the repairs. i would NEVER assume that liability. you need a professional's "opinion" on the scope of work involved.


Nah, easy as pie. You write up each piece of work as "remove & replace (NOT Repair & Replace) or "Add the following materials" and state that it is at "the customers direction".

No implied reliance on your skills, no warrantability.

Somebody else pulled the permits - at this point, it is back on the owner, and you (the feller doing the work) just need to specifically disavow any claim to special knowledge in resolving the issue(s).

Your just an outfit providing skilled labor and materials at his/her direction. The customer can choose to use an archy or engineer - or not for counsel. Just make sure it ain't you.



> otherwise, this doctor may introduce you to his attorney friend.


Yes, that's why you stipulate "pay as you go".

You add some joists - the customer pays you. If all good, continue with next segment.

If not, then adios amigo and place the lien.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

and, at whose direction? doc apparently didn't have a clue as didn't his first contractor. so you "remove and replace"...and the adjacent beam/structure, etc. fail...will you be able to convince the jury that it wasn't your fault? are you going to be able to convince them that you are educated enough in the field of structural design that your method was the best alternative? the other atty. is going to have your lunch, and smack his lips when he's done. if you've ever sat in a court room before and been drilled by an atty...you'll know it's his job to convince the panel of your peers that you're a low life, know nothing hack. to me anyway...to be able to respond...hey, "under the direction". of so and so engineering company, i was directed to do this scope of work for this price would give me a considerable amount of comfort...i am NOT a professional engineer or architect, NOR profess to be. i just remediated the items under his direction and inspection. but, if you like gambling in a court room, and risking the verdict on the emotions of those peers...have at it, but it's not the way that "i" would do it.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

dayexco said:


> and, at whose direction? doc apparently didn't have a clue as didn't his first contractor. so you "remove and replace"...and the adjacent beam/structure, etc. fail...will you be able to convince the jury that it wasn't your fault? are you going to be able to convince them that you are educated enough in the field of structural design that your method was the best alternative? the other atty. is going to have your lunch, and smack his lips when he's done. if you've ever sat in a court room before and been drilled by an atty...you'll know it's his job to convince the panel of your peers that you're a low life, know nothing hack. to me anyway...to be able to respond...hey, "under the direction". of so and so engineering company, i was directed to do this scope of work for this price would give me a considerable amount of comfort...i am NOT a professional engineer or architect, NOR profess to be. i just remediated the items under his direction and inspection. but, if you like gambling in a court room, and risking the verdict on the emotions of those peers...have at it, but it's not the way that "i" would do it.


LOL Sounds sad.

My first few years - before I had "clientele", we would've eaten very lean had I not picked up a LOT of "fix the other guys stuff" -, this forum is FILLED with posts from guys fixing the other guys stuff.

In fact, I want to give a shout out right now to "Frank J, W**ker Developer Inc." without whose persistence in underbidding, under-delivering, under-building, I would never have had the opportunity to get my foot in so many commercial projects so early on.

I showed up with tools, good men, great work ethic and NO PROMISES. We always got paid (well, it was close a couple of times)and never had a day in court, or an hour in front of a lawyer.

RIP Frankie, you wuz always good for me


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