# Sub threatening Lien..



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

katoman said:


> The OP is willing to pay the guy and be rid of him. The guy can't/won't come up with the required clearances.
> 
> No way would I pay this guy without that.


 Im in no way trying to bag on the OP, but he should of required it up front before all this bs started. Ive done work with subs without a contract before, but this is a prime example of what could go wrong.

My opinion, pay it and be done with it. I know your pissed, but it is the best solution in my opinion.


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## Astrix (Feb 23, 2009)

WilsonRMDL said:


> I can almost guarantee the sub doesn't have an active insurance policy and we already know he has no license. Tell him good luck with the lien.
> 
> Next time get insurance certificates up front, I've never heard of proving you have insurance after the fact


Part of my job is issuing insurance certs, and there have been times where I've been asked to issue a cert on a job that is just finishing up. The contractor is looking to close out the job and get their final draw and only then is it realized that the insurance documentation was overlooked. 

There is always a really BIG SIGH of relief that there was no claim that triggered the realization that required insurance certs hadn't been issued before the start of work as they should have been. Then there is a second really BIG SIGH of relief once the existing insurance coverage is checked and we are able to confirm that there are no gaps in what was required for that job. It is pretty much impossible to buy back-dated insurance cover; so if you were supposed to carry $2 million limit, but only had $1,000,000, you will be in breach of contract as I won't be able to give you the insurance cert that you need.

QUESTION: Because the electrical sub is apparently uninsured/unlicensed, would the GC now have to undertake the extra expense of having another electrician come in to check and approve the work that was done?

SUGGESTION: Ajax, you mentioned that the electrical guy had been referred by a friend (which was one of the reasons he wasn't properly vetted). Can you contact this friend and perhaps ask him to act as an intermediary in this dispute? After all, based on others' input on this situation, it would probably be in everyone's interest to just get this resolved as amicably as possible and then move on.


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## headwatermike (Nov 17, 2007)

How did this wash out?

As a GC, I would have fired him when his license lapsed (certified letter), hired another electrician, paid him to finish (not sure how to get the original to release the permit once his license has lapsed!?), and given the original electrician the difference between the new electrician's pay and the contract amount, however much or little it was, after any backcharging for errors/issues that added additional expense. In your case, I would have used his invoices as the contract amount (though I do have contracts in place to define the T&M terms at minimum...) as it is too difficult to fight over that amount. I can be a really nice guy to work for or I can be a real ahole, and I don't want to wait on a project and dick about like you are describing. When he let his stuff lapse, he bent over in front of you and held his ankles. He should be over there with a "yes sir" attitude trying to get paid out--you have no obligation to allow him back to the site, and I would not as he is now a liability for you.

Had he maintained his professional license, ins, etc this would be different. 

Also, didn't you have this additional and necessary electrical work budgeted in your bid? Did you just miss it? Sounds like you are eating the difference. 

Not to be a jerk, but of course we only have one side of this story. It would be interesting to hear what his take is on the situation. 

Good luck.


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## AJAX (Sep 12, 2009)

Update: I told the original EC that he gets me what I need ( all paper work) and he finishes the job and I'll pay him. He wanted me to pay him the whole bill before he finished, finaled. Then threatens to lien. 

I hired a new EC and I met him at the job for the final. Day before he called inspector and asked about open permit. He has to close old permit and open new one. Inspector says, "what permit"?... hmmm, he didn't pull a permit and doesn't have a license. 

So, the new EC inspects old EC work... guess what? It would have NEVER passed inspection. 3 open grounds, had various issues inside the box and an unprotected Romex running through a cabinet. 

Met the inspector at the job the next day. Asked him if he was updated on the "story" with this job. He said he was told a little bit. So, I told him how we got to this point. He says, "yeeaaahhh, we have been having problems with him. He's an ok contractor, but the problem I mostly have with him is communication". Hmmmm, sound familiar? He was very interested that I paid for a permit and he didn't pull one. inspector was not pleased to say the least, stating "I will be following up him about this project". I stated that it was a shame that the new EC has to hold the liability for the job now. "oh no he doesn't, now that I know the story he will be on the permit for the rough in and new guy for the final". Inspector even said, "now I know why his master called me last week and asked if he was in some kind of trouble", he says, "no, not that I'm aware of". Does it all make since now guys?

So, to date I have yet to hear from said contractor. What the hell is he gonna do? Nothing. he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Even if you have a signed contract. Even if you dot all your i's and cross all your t's, it doesn't mean your not going to get screwed by someone not pulling a permit or letting there license lapse or whatever. Who's going to check that on every sub everyday, no one.

Bottom line is I got the job done for the client and there happy! 

To all my following naysayers, think I should just pay up now? Yeah, I should just pay that EC the full amount and caulk it up to experience, right? No permit, no license, lies about price, lies about pulling permit, lies about having inspection done, does shoddy work. Yeah, right.(enter sarcasm font here)


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Yeah I guess because you didn't do your research on who you hired to enter your customers home makes YOU in the right...


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Ajax, I'm curious as to what you think the role of GC is?

The reason I ask is that you take no responsibility for the mess YOU created and the potential headaches/delays you exposed the customer to but want to hold the original EC responsible for his role....  

At least he did work on his end to justify the money... 

But you still expect to get paid from the client, right? IMHO, unless YOU are giving up money to the customer out of your pocket for the mess and lack of oversight on your part, you are not paying any price here, so why do you think the EC should? Can you get away with it? Probably... should you?... :no:

As to what we think... refer to post #45...

Hopefully, lesson learned, but I am not getting the warm fuzzie's on that... :no:

And BTW...



AJAX said:


> "Even if you have a signed contract. Even if you dot all your i's and cross all your t's, it doesn't mean your not going to get screwed by someone not pulling a permit or letting there license lapse or whatever. Who's going to check that on every sub everyday, no one."


GC's who actually work for a living... if you already HAVE a copy of their Cert. of Insurance and license number on file, and you have worked with them in the past, you don't NEED to. You had NONE of this and you had never had worked with him before... Your story is so full of inconsistencies, I can't believe you had the gall to post that as if you were in some sort of right here... you weren't... :no:

The sooner you realize that, and take responsibility for it, the sooner you can be on a path to being a GC... :thumbsup:


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

AJAX said:


> He quoted me $2067 I submitted $2610 on the bid. When his invoices came in it was a total of $3821.92. I did agree this. After our talk I thought we agreed to me paying him $2900. I've already paid him $850 so after he performes his duties I agreed to pay him the difference, $2050... He changed his mind and wants the full 3821. Even tho he told me this morning that he would take off $600 to have another guy finish so the difference is $361... I'm not paying the 2050 till he gives me W9, all insurances, and lien waiver. That's it.
> Exactly!


If it's not in writting, you got nothing. Pay up, move on.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I;ve seen master electricians work on multifamily when their license doesn't cover it, others that took an up-front service entrance payment from a HO ($900) and took off, etc, etc, etc. Bottom line is it's your resonsibility to get the right guy, the right contract and payment schedule, etc, as well as making sure all the paperwork is in order (insurance, permits, etc).

Back to the original question, around here there is state law governing liens. The sub would have to prove he was owed money when it went to court - not much chance of that.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

IMHO a good GC would have had a contract, license & cert. before allowing the sub on the property. If I read this right you only paid $850 and are over 60 days on the rest? 

Over 60 days and screaming about the invoice...why I don't work for GCs.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Glad it worked out for you ajax!!


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

tiger said:


> imho a good gc would have had a contract, license & cert. Before allowing the sub on the property. If i read this right you only paid $850 and are over 60 days on the rest?
> 
> Over 60 days and screaming about the invoice...why i don't work for gcs.


A sub who wants to work for builders either uses a contract or works for what the builder pays him. I will run 3 to 5 jobs at a time and don't have time to run around and sign contracts with small subs. They rough in, get inspected, fax the ins cert. And get paid, easy stuff.


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## AJAX (Sep 12, 2009)

KAP said:


> Ajax, I'm curious as to what you think the role of GC is?
> 
> The reason I ask is that you take no responsibility for the mess YOU created and the potential headaches/delays you exposed the customer to but want to hold the original EC responsible for his role....
> 
> ...


I took responsibility for my part by not continuing the error of my ways and not allowing this to continue until he provides me with the documentation that is needed. NOT by paying him and moving on as you suggested. You are really taking this out of context and just choosing to be a dick about it. I'm not an immoral person and I'm not out to NOT pay him as you stated earlier. And it was never about $300 as you stated as well. The situation got out of hand, I admitted that in my very first post. I came on here to get advise, but now is see the error of my ways by posting this. Seems that you and some of the good ole boys like to sit on here all day and chastise those that may get into a situation by there undoing... 

Forgive me for not liking it when you and others make snide comments and feel justified by putting IMHO and smiley at the end of your sentence.


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## AJAX (Sep 12, 2009)

Shellbuilder said:


> A sub who wants to work for builders either uses a contract or works for what the builder pays him. I will run 3 to 5 jobs at a time and don't have time to run around and sign contracts with small subs. They rough in, get inspected, fax the ins cert. And get paid, easy stuff.


Exactly... But, if it where up to Kappy you would charged with a 10 year prison sentence for not getting the ins. cert. before work started.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

AJAX said:


> Exactly... But, if it where up to Kappy you would charged with a 10 year prison sentence for not getting the ins. cert. before work started.


What is the job of a GC then if they don't need to make sure all their subs have the proper qualifications for their job?

Don't have enough time? Not an excuse, if you don't have enough time then you need to hire one. 

How hard is it to get the insurance certificate from their agent BEFORE you sign a contract?


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## AJAX (Sep 12, 2009)

hdavis said:


> I;ve seen master electricians work on multifamily when their license doesn't cover it, others that took an up-front service entrance payment from a HO ($900) and took off, etc, etc, etc. Bottom line is it's your resonsibility to get the right guy, the right contract and payment schedule, etc, as well as making sure all the paperwork is in order (insurance, permits, etc).
> 
> Back to the original question, around here there is state law governing liens. The sub would have to prove he was owed money when it went to court - not much chance of that.


Yup, it is...

If your a practicing contractor in this state and don't have a license AND receiving funds for permits and not pulling them. That's grounds for major fines.


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## AJAX (Sep 12, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> What is the job of a GC then if they don't need to make sure all their subs have the proper qualifications for their job?
> 
> Don't have enough time? Not an excuse, if you don't have enough time then you need to hire one.
> 
> How hard is it to get the insurance certificate from their agent BEFORE you sign a contract?


In MN you have to have the Ins. agent mail the cert. to you. So, sometimes the lines get crossed with good intentions.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

He who has the money controls the situation. If a sub says he has insurance and then can't come up with a certificate, that sub is history without pay. I've hired hundreds of subs, liars rarely get past me.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Shellbuilder said:


> He who has the money controls the situation. If a sub says he has insurance and then can't come up with a certificate, that sub is history without pay. I've hired hundreds of subs, liars rarely get past me.


Yeah I bet you like that when you don't ask about certificates beforehand. Then when the time comes when you finally ask for one you can just say "Oh bummer, guess you won't be paid."


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Yeah I bet you like that when you don't ask about certificates beforehand. Then when the time comes when you finally ask for one you can just say "Oh bummer, guess you won't be paid."


I generally will call their agent so it gets mailed or emailed to the right address. Not sure what youre implying, can you elaborate?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Ajax,

The more you talk on this, the more you expose... 

*RESPONSIBILITY* 

Did you compensate the customer for your mishandling of the situation? You conveniently point the finger at the EC that YOU hired, when you didn't work with him before without the basic understanding that everything that happened from that point forward was YOUR responsibility. You seem to forget that you were ready *and *willing to have him complete the job. You know, the guy who was unlicensed, uninsured, no permits, etc... All things YOU as GC are supposed to be responsible for verifying ESPECIALLY with someone you've never worked with before. The results are the very lesson why...

From what you wrote, he took care of not only the service panel, but the rough on the job, and your issue was monetary and not with his work UNTIL the second EC came in to "inspect it" which was way later. Aren't you spanky-lucky that the original EC's substandard work didn't cause a fire, and someone getting hurt or property damaged, especially since you were not around to supervise the project... You weren't there to even KNOW what was going on...

To my knowledge, you only paid the first guy $850... the three issues you listed are easy fixes, but based on your posts, my guess is that you plan on keeping the difference and benefiting off the work the guy performed despite your own non-performance. That is, unless you had the new EC strip the walls and start over... 

With regards to when I said - *"if you already HAVE a copy of their Cert. of Insurance and license number on file, and you have worked with them in the past, you don't NEED to."*, it was in response to YOU saying *"Even if you have a signed contract. Even if you dot all your i's and cross all your t's, it doesn't mean your not going to get screwed by someone not pulling a permit or letting there license lapse or whatever. Who's going to check that on every sub everyday, no one."* What I was referring to was when you HAVE THINGS ON FILE, and you've worked with them in the past, it is easily verified BEFORE you start a job, which is what a GC does, and you don't have to check on them "everyday", just when it is NECESSARY, like in this instance. But ESPECIALLY with someone you've never worked with before, that is what you are THERE FOR as a GC. Otherwise, why do they need you? 

If you don't already have a CMS (Contact Management System) in place, you might want to look into one... this is where you can record licenses, insurance, WC, dates, reminders, etc... in their contact screen and have it at the ready. Then you establish a SOP for verification. Makes life easy...

You criticize and call me a "dick" when all I am doing is pointing out your deficiencies as a GC in this situation. When you say... *"To all my following naysayers, think I should just pay up now? Yeah, I should just pay that EC the full amount and caulk it up to experience, right? No permit, no license, lies about price, lies about pulling permit, lies about having inspection done, does shoddy work. Yeah, right.(enter sarcasm font here)"... *that doesn't go a long way in convincing me or anyone else that you didn't learn much from this... I hope I am wrong...

You can either LEARN from what I and others are trying to feed back to you or you will REPEAT these mistakes, because based on your posts, you have a very limited understanding as to what a GC's role and responsibilities are... getting defensive and trying to twist yourself into a pretzel justifying your actions doesn't change that... 

It is BECAUSE we've all made mistakes that we even take the time to point these things out... Benefit from the experience or ignore it... it's your company... :thumbsup:


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

TheItalian204 said:


> Quiet honestly I am trying to figure out whos bigger crook: guy who lied that he has the insurance or the guy that doesnt ask about it uprfront hoping deep inside that sub does not have the insurance so he can not pay him. Pay is pay regardless of if they had insurance or not especially if work was done and done with quality,you cant not pay them only because they dont have insurance. Dont hire them for next job as for this one, but not paying someone and hiding behind sheet of paper called law can get you in trouble one way or another. There are simple man etiquette. Some of us follow that as much as we follow law. Any experienced GC checks insurance beforehand rather than afterwards.
> 
> So its either GC is inexperienced or a crook...which one is it?...


You can print your own Insurance Certs by a simple seach on the internet. 
Old Russian Probverb: Trust, but Verify.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

skyhook said:


> You can print your own Insurance Certs by a simple seach on the internet.
> Old Russian Probverb: Trust, but Verify.


Can you also get those faxed from an agents office?


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

skyhook said:


> You can print your own Insurance Certs by a simple seach on the internet.
> Old Russian Probverb: Trust, but Verify.


Thats pretty much where I am going with that post...and if you did not verify you are either a) dumbass because you generated unnecessary liability or b) crook who takes a chance on no accidents happening,knowing from get go hes planning to screw sub out of cash if insurance is not there.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

skyhook said:


> That's fine if you want to pay for them. :laughing:
> 
> When you hold a *Certificate of Insurance*, the *Insurer* is *obligated by law* to notify you *immediately*
> if and when the policy is cancelled.
> ...


Apparently this is true.

Thanks, learn something everyday. :thumbsup:


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Hook,
This is from your link, I don't see the cancellation law in your link, in fact there is more discussion about not sending cancelation notices. Can you show a absolute link? My carrier is my neighbor, he tells me he is under no obligation to send these notices. He suggest i continue to obtain certificates each time I hire any sub regardless if they are repeat vendors or not, the numbers (percentages) would be in my favor to do that. To further explain that, many of the insured are paying quarterly, some monthly and cancellatoin notices to that sub could be at the same rate as their ability to make the mo nthly or quarterly payment.


So, what should agencies do?

We suggest not providing ANY notice of cancellation not supported by the policy. We agree with the emerging stance being taken by regulators that notice of cancellation is a contractual policy right and should be governed by the policy and state law. In those states, agents would be required by law to comply with insurance department directives and other applicable state laws.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

Shellbuilder said:


> Hook,
> This is from your link, I don't see the cancellation law in your link, in fact there is more discussion about not sending cancelation notices. Can you show a absolute link? My carrier is my neighbor, he tells me he is under no obligation to send these notices. He suggest i continue to obtain certificates each time I hire any sub regardless if they are repeat vendors or not, the numbers (percentages) would be in my favor to do that. To further explain that, many of the insured are paying quarterly, some monthly and cancellatoin notices to that sub could be at the same rate as their ability to make the mo nthly or quarterly payment.
> 
> 
> ...


Caveat emptor. 

I found that reference in less than 2 minutes by looking up "Certicate of Insurance cancellation"
You can do the same if the language is too confusing or you need more proof.

A Certificate of Insurance is of little or no value without a law that requires the additional insured to be notified of cancellation. 

Keep in mind, a (GL) Certificate of Insurance is limited to the work performed by the insured on your project, 
during the time you were listed as additionally insured. 

I agree with your agent, It is good practice to require Certificate of Insurance from each sub, on every new job. 

Think of the people who get car insurance policies, just to get their registration, then let the policy lapse. 
Is the DMV and the PD notified.? Abso  lutely. 

Insurance Companies are always looking for ways to keep more of the (usury) money until it becomes profit. 
They spend millions, if not billions trying to confuse the public and escape payouts.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> Are you sure you're using a CMS correctly? You can enter a subs certificates and everything else you want but unless you get a certificate each and every time you hire them, there is no way you know they have not let the policy lapse. Someone else here has mentioned some laws regarding cancellation notices, I'm waiting for a link to that law. I have never had a cancellation notice sent yet I've had many subs policy discontinued for whatever reason, usually failure to pay.
> I have certificates each time I hire to work and name ownere as additionally insured. I'm sure everyone here is doing that right???? My sub burns a house or injures a client, causes a leak, guess whose insurance isn't on the line? But of course I'm just an idiot who takes a subs word and sticks my head in the sand…..really???


Am I using a CMS correctly? Info is verified before every job. The info to do so is held in one central location... in their contact file in the CMS. There is no need to even contact the sub if you've worked with them... all the info is available for verification...

BECAUSE subs let insurance/licenses lapse is the reason it is incumbent upon a GC to verify the info when hiring them out on behalf of the HO... if not, it's all on you as you were contracted and the money flows through you... If you verify the info and get the appropriate paperwork, you've done your job... if not, you haven't IMHO...

There's a reason the term is SUBcontractor...


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

I never understood why anyone would do work without EVERY detail in a contract. None of this "he said, she said" crap.

The days of a handshake contract are long gone this isn't the 50s anymore

I turned down a $7k+ job last year from a wealthy guy that wouldn't sign anything. I shook his hand and said thank you for your time and walked out. On my way out he said "so your not going to do the work?" I said not unless you sign the contract.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

realelectrician said:


> i never understood why anyone would do work without every detail in a contract. None of this "he said, she said" crap.
> 
> The days of a handshake contract are long gone this isn't the 50s anymore
> 
> I turned down a $7k+ job last year from a wealthy guy that wouldn't sign anything. I shook his hand and said thank you for your time and walked out. On my way out he said "so your not going to do the work?" i said not unless you sign the contract.


i believe this is about gc and subs. I USE A CONTRACT WITH SUBS ABOUT 1 IN 20 TIMES, MY HANDSHAKE IS MY WORD.With hos every one of them signs a contract


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> i believe this is about gc and subs. I USE A CONTRACT WITH SUBS ABOUT 1 IN 20 TIMES, MY HANDSHAKE IS MY WORD.


Good for you. If I'm not your employee everyone gets a contract over $500 for me. 

I would never work for anyone with a handshake and I don't care how many jobs I have done with them in the past. Most contractors understand a contract is just business nothing personal and guys who don't like them or use them usually have something up their sleeve.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

realelectrician said:


> Good for you. If I'm not your employee everyone gets a contract over $500 for me.
> 
> I would never work for anyone with a handshake and I don't care how many jobs I have done with them in the past. Most contractors understand a contract is just business nothing personal and guys who don't like them or use them usually have something up their sleeve.


That's B.S. I would think you would have some relationship problems to continue to work for a GC on a regular basis and demand signatures over and over. Thank goodness I have the subs I have, they are all doing well, take vacations and work hard.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> That's B.S. I would think you would have some relationship problems to continue to work for a GC on a regular basis and demand signatures over and over. Thank goodness I have the subs I have, they are all doing well, take vacations and work hard.


Sounds like you have subcontractor employees that just work for you. I am a business and sometimes get calls RARELY from GCs for help on projects.

There is a difference. Ofcorse if I wasn't a business and just working for you and your paying me as a sub then contracts are not needed.

Like i said before if I'm not working for you...your signing a contract.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> i believe this is about gc and subs. I USE A CONTRACT WITH SUBS ABOUT 1 IN 20 TIMES, MY HANDSHAKE IS MY WORD.With hos every one of them signs a contract


Shellbuilder, how did you go from verifying insurance, WC, license etc. on a new sub before starting a project (which is what this thread is about) to project work details for subs you do know?

We have subs that we use, and have their pricing set within our pricing, so we can text/fax/email spec's (along with drawings if necessary), and move forward. But we have a pricing agreement already with them so it's just a matter of us telling them what we need. That said, there are still projects we get it all in writing because of the scope. 

But that doesn't mean we can just ignore verifying their paperwork to ensure the customer is covered... 

Now, if we don't know the sub, everything is in writing, and that is what is the case here... I don't know how you can say you hire someone you don't know, don't get an agreement on pricing, don't verify their license, insurance, permits, etc... and still think you are performing the role of GC... :no:


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

KAP said:


> Shellbuilder, how did you go from verifying insurance, WC, license etc. on a new sub before starting a project (which is what this thread is about) to project work details for subs you do know?
> 
> We have subs that we use, and have their pricing set within our pricing, so we can text/fax/email spec's (along with drawings if necessary), and move forward. But we have a pricing agreement already with them so it's just a matter of us telling them what we need. That said, there are still projects we get it all in writing because of the scope.
> 
> ...


I think he hires "subs" that strictly work for him like employees not independent contractors.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

realelectrician said:


> I never understood why anyone would do work without EVERY detail in a contract. None of this "he said, she said" crap.
> 
> The days of a handshake contract are long gone this isn't the 50s anymore
> 
> I turned down a $7k+ job last year from a wealthy guy that wouldn't sign anything. I shook his hand and said thank you for your time and walked out. On my way out he said "so your not going to do the work?" I said not unless you sign the contract.


I would accept a handshake as long as there is a check that matches the amount on the contract to go with it. 
He was asking you to trust him by extending his hand. Old school. 
A contract is only as good as the person who signs it, same with a handshake. 
I certainly would not burn a bridge over it.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

skyhook said:


> I would accept a handshake as long as there is a check that matches the amount on the contract to go with it.
> He was asking you to trust him by extending his hand. Old school.
> A contract is only as good as the person who signs it, same with a handshake.
> I certainly would not burn a bridge over it.


 "A contract is only as good as the person who signs it, same with a handshake."

Absolutely wrong. You can tell the judge you shook on it and I will show the judge a signed contract. A contract doesn't guarantee a win in court but it sure as hell has better odds over saying "well duh we shook on it"

If I was a judge I would laugh if someone told me the contract was a shake of hands.

I don't trust anyone these days and a lot of people feel the same was as i do.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

realelectrician said:


> "A contract is only as good as the person who signs it, same with a handshake."
> 
> Absolutely wrong. You can tell the judge you shook on it and I will show the judge a signed contract. A contract doesn't guarantee a win in court but it sure as hell has better odds over saying "well duh we shook on it"
> 
> ...


What's wrong for you and your business plan, may not nessesarily be wrong for everybody. 
No doubt, if it's not in writting, you got nothing in court.
When I look back on clients who became lifelong friends over the past 30 years, they are the ones I accepted on a handshake. 
The ones that I sued, all had contracts. 
By accepting a check for the same amount as the contract, and following the terms and draws to the letter, which, in my case, amounts to T&M with a retainer, I stay good. When you let the draws slip is when you get in trouble.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

skyhook said:


> What's wrong for you and your business plan, may not nessesarily be wrong for everybody.
> No doubt, if it's not in writting, you got nothing in court.
> When I look back on clients who became lifelong friends over the past 30 years, they are the ones I accepted on a handshake.
> The ones that I sued, all had contracts.
> By accepting a check for the same amount as the contract, and following the terms and draws to the letter, which, in my case, amounts to T&M with a retainer, I stay good. When you let the draws slip is when you get in trouble.


Whatever works for you that's all that matters. But remember all it takes is one time that could bankrupt your company.

I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars on electrical materials and install them after just a handshake. I can eat the labor if I'm stiffed I can't eat thousands of dollars worth of materials.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

Shellbuilder said:


> i believe this is about gc and subs. I USE A CONTRACT WITH SUBS ABOUT 1 IN 20 TIMES, MY HANDSHAKE IS MY WORD.With hos every one of them signs a contract


This seems to translate to "I rarely contract with a sub, but I always require a contract with the homeowner". 

So you have a written agreement with the customers who will owe you money, but the contractors who you will owe money to are SOL. So it is unacceptable if a sub follows your business practices?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

realelectrician said:


> Whatever works for you that's all that matters. But remember all it takes is one time that could bankrupt your company.
> 
> I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars on electrical materials and install them after just a handshake. I can eat the labor if I'm stiffed I can't eat thousands of dollars worth of materials.




If you set your draws up correctly you shouldn't be out much, it certainly wouldn't bankrupt me because if they don't pay a draw I stop work. 

Small projects I'm usually behind my draws, but its my operating capitol. If I'm out 10 grand on a bath remodel it would hurt but I'm not shutting the doors. More importantly, I either have the cash in operating capitol or from a deposit before I contract with any of my subs or vendors. They will get paid regardless, their contract is with me, not the HO, and MY word is better than any contract that can be written.

That said, I do get my clients to sign a contract. I don't use sub agreements often, I know the guys I'm working with. Have for years. I don't think I'd want to do this chit if I couldn't trust my own subs. I use sub agreements with new subs, the old gaurd I trust. They have rewarded that trust well.

I would, however , have no problem signing a sub agreement if one of my subs asked.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Jaws said:


> If you set your draws up correctly you shouldn't be out much, it certainly wouldn't bankrupt me because if they don't pay a draw I stop work.
> 
> Small projects I'm usually behind my draws, but its my operating capitol. If I'm out 10 grand on a bath remodel it would hurt but I'm not shutting the doors. More importantly, I either have the cash in operating capitol from a deposit before I contract with any of my subs or vendors. They will get paid regardless, their contract is with me, not the HO, and MY word is better than any contract that can be written.
> 
> ...


 As far as going Bankrupt, I'm talking about small time residential contractor's, like myself. Not big time commercial or even big time residential contractors.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

realelectrician said:


> I think he hires "subs" that strictly work for him like employees not independent contractors.


think again


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> think again


Ok, since that's not it, you never addressed post #113...


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

KAP said:


> Ok, since that's not it, you never addressed post #113...


Ive hired in a hurry many times, just like many gcs. There just arent that many liars out there who would go as far as lying about insurance and permits. I have 2 houses going now, a three bath remodel and a whole house reno. There are no written contracts for labor on any of these jobs including the granite guys. Maybe I live in a world and area of honesty and trust, too bad the electrician guy with the weird handyman slogan can't. These subs include plumber, HVAC, electrician, insulation, plaster, brick, siding, roofing, cornice, paint, trim, dumpster. I dont have time to run around and sign contracts with subs and they dont either. They make money working not piling up papers on their dashboard.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> Ive hired in a hurry many times, just like many gcs. There just arent that many liars out there who would go as far as lying about insurance and permits. I have 2 houses going now, a three bath remodel and a whole house reno. There are no written contracts for labor on any of these jobs including the granite guys. Maybe I live in a world and area of honesty and trust, too bad the electrician guy with the weird handyman slogan can't. These subs include plumber, HVAC, electrician, insulation, plaster, brick, siding, roofing, cornice, paint, trim, dumpster. I dont have time to run around and sign contracts with subs and they dont either. They make money working not piling up papers on their dashboard.


Yeah you sound reaaaalll trustworthy


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

realelectrician said:


> Yeah you sound reaaaalll trustworthy


Get in to the GC side of things elect, borrow a lot of money to keep things including subs going, accept the responsibilities of multiple clients, agents, lawyers and accountants OR>>>>>wake up everyday worrying about a 600.00 job you drove back and forth to get a signed contract that you apparently think a judge will be smitten over. I would really like to see a copy of your contract, mind posting one?

BTW, in the USA court system all it takes is for ONE, thats right ONE contractor to agree and appear in court against you to ruin your collection process, in fact likely you will be paying that person you chased down for this almighty contract you have.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> Ive hired in a hurry many times, just like many gcs. There just arent that many liars out there who would go as far as lying about insurance and permits. I have 2 houses going now, a three bath remodel and a whole house reno. There are no written contracts for labor on any of these jobs including the granite guys. Maybe I live in a world and area of honesty and trust, too bad the electrician guy with the weird handyman slogan can't. These subs include plumber, HVAC, electrician, insulation, plaster, brick, siding, roofing, cornice, paint, trim, dumpster. I dont have time to run around and sign contracts with subs and they dont either. They make money working not piling up papers on their dashboard.


This is very interesting to me... in a thread that started out on the OP not having a contract with ONE sub (EC) with whom he had not worked with before and was a referral no less from another sub (i.e. - hired in a hurry), from what you post, are you saying he was in the right to do so? 

He then went on to find out not only that there was a pricing issue, but he wasn't insured, no license, and no permit, and had supposed substandard work. This is a text-book example of WHY you don't do that with someone you don't know (in a hurry)... 

We don't have contracts with every work order either, but they get a work order nonetheless whether it's email/fax and/or text (for simple items) but we have their pricing already incorporated and we've worked with them for years. But a new sub, there is no way we would expose the client to the above issues. What happened if something horrible happened to you? No details, no work orders, etc...

As a GC, YOU are the buffer between the client and problems and is what they are payng you for. As we can see above, working on the fly, with no records, exposes your clients to problems. Just because you've been lucky doesn't mean you are protecting your clients... :no:

Based on what you posted, you would have hired the same EC as the OP without pricing confirmation, license, permit, insurance, etc... interesting... what exactly do you think is the role of the GC?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

KAP said:


> Based on what you posted, you would have hired the same EC as the OP without pricing confirmation, license, permit, insurance, etc... interesting... what exactly do you think is the role of the GC?


Leaving aside the question of handshakes vs contracts, the GC's role is to be a one-stop shop for the client. He counsels, organizes and arranges. Whether the workers are in-house or subs is irrelevant (in terms of the definition).

While I agree that the OP's situation is a bit of a train wreck, I also agree with others that you _can_ do business that way without such problems. But that does require experience and good judgement skills--which include an accurate valuation of the person providing a recommendation of someone else.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Shellbuilder said:


> Ive hired in a hurry many times, just like many gcs. There just arent that many liars out there who would go as far as lying about insurance and permits. I have 2 houses going now, a three bath remodel and a whole house reno. There are no written contracts for labor on any of these jobs including the granite guys. Maybe I live in a world and area of honesty and trust, too bad the electrician guy with the weird handyman slogan can't. These subs include plumber, HVAC, electrician, insulation, plaster, brick, siding, roofing, cornice, paint, trim, dumpster. I dont have time to run around and sign contracts with subs and they dont either. They make money working not piling up papers on their dashboard.


I guess I am only confused because if you aren't doing what a GC is supposed to do, how don't you have the time.

I get a signed contract for a job of any size. Takes me a whole minute to fax it over.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> While I agree that the OP's situation is a bit of a train wreck, I also agree with others that you _can_ do business that way without such problems. But that does require experience and good judgement skills--which include an accurate valuation of the person providing a recommendation of someone else.


How would you have determined that? The OP hired a EC that was not only a referral but referred to him by a friend no less.... that's one leg up on most subs that are "hired in a hurry", wouldn't you agree? EC told him he was licensed, insured and pulled the permits... he took him at his word and didn't verify anything and lead to a cascade of problems that he would not have even been aware of had he not had a pricing issue. Good thing nothing happened due to the substandard work... Whose responsibility would that have been? 

Tinstaafl, what would have been your discriminating factor in NOT hiring that EC in that situation?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

KAP said:


> Tinstaafl, what would have been your discriminating factor in NOT hiring that EC in that situation?


I wouldn't blindly hire an EC based upon a recommendation from a barhopping pipefitter beer buddy of mine. But I do have a couple of _real_ friends who also happen to be successful contractors. If they say he's golden, he's golden. :thumbsup:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> I wouldn't blindly hire an EC based upon a recommendation from a barhopping pipefitter beer buddy of mine. But I do have a couple of _real_ friends who also happen to be successful contractors. If they say he's golden, he's golden. :thumbsup:


I didn't see where there was a bar-hopping buddy, but a friend... So I guess he would have been golden... :blink:


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I guess I am only confused because if you aren't doing what a GC is supposed to do, how don't you have the time.
> 
> I get a signed contract for a job of any size. Takes me a whole minute to fax it over.


The few subcontractor contracts I have seen aren't specific enough for me and probably would be trouble to defend in court. The best practice is to work for reputable people. 

Mind posting your contract? I assume your contracts have rescission clauses, LBP provisions, attorney fees, designated parking, work hours, signage, start and completion dates, excapulatory and arbitration clauses,brand name and model no. for all supplied material, insurance modifications,….. all the basics of an enforceable contract.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> The few subcontractor contracts I have seen aren't specific enough for me and probably would be trouble to defend in court. The best practice is to work for reputable people.
> 
> Mind posting your contract? I assume your contracts have rescission clauses, LBP provisions, attorney fees, designated parking, work hours, signage, start and completion dates, excapulatory and arbitration clauses,brand name and model no. for all supplied material, insurance modifications,….. all the basics of an enforceable contract.


So I am trying to find the difference between the OP practices and the way you are doing it, because it sounds the same to me, so you would have ended up with the same problems, right? Not verifying their license, insurance, WC, permits, etc... leaves not only you, but the customer exposed...

What is the role of a GC? Just to sell the deal (which I am sure you have a contract with the HO, right?), schedule things and then collect a check?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

KAP said:


> I didn't see where there was a bar-hopping buddy, but a friend... So I guess he would have been golden... :blink:


I guess you didn't see that in my post, I was differentiating between "buddies" and true friends whose judgement, loyalty and reliability have been proven time and again. 

There's a major difference, but often it takes too many painful lessons to learn that.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Shellbuilder said:


> The few subcontractor contracts I have seen aren't specific enough for me and probably would be trouble to defend in court. The best practice is to work for reputable people.
> 
> Mind posting your contract? I assume your contracts have rescission clauses, LBP provisions, attorney fees, designated parking, work hours, signage, start and completion dates, excapulatory and arbitration clauses,brand name and model no. for all supplied material, insurance modifications,….. all the basics of an enforceable contract.


Texas Association of Builders offers a great set of contracts ( HO, sub, vendor, Lein release) for 300$ to members. Worth every penny. I'm sure your states BA has something similar.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> I guess you didn't see that in my post, I was differentiating between "buddies" and true friends whose judgement, loyalty and reliability have been proven time and again.
> 
> There's a major difference, but often it takes too many painful lessons to learn that.


I assume when someone says friend, that's what they are talking about when asking for a referral, but the OP doesn't qualify it (i.e. - real or true) so that is an assumption on my end... 

I assume then that means in a situation where you are "hiring in a hurry" and you don't have that special friend to refer you to someone that you perform due diligence on behalf of the HO?


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

KAP said:


> So I am trying to find the difference between the OP practices and the way you are doing it, because it sounds the same to me, so you would have ended up with the same problems, right? Not verifying their license, insurance, WC, permits, etc... leaves not only you, but the customer exposed...
> 
> What is the role of a GC? Just to sell the deal (which I am sure you have a contract with the HO, right?), schedule things and then collect a check?


I doubt I would spend the time to explain my daily role in this business to you. Right now I have so much going on and so much in the pipeline, the communication side of things is my main priority. I could have done what the OP did, however I would let that thief take me to court before I would pay. And i would have only hired that quick because i was in a bind. My company is fast at what we do, there is no waiting time for slow poke subs and suppliers. I draw the plans and use 25 page contracts/specs for the work to make that happen and manage a crew of highly talented carpenters. My time is the hardest thing to manage. 
I get a sense that certain subs here think all GCs are lowlife cigar smoking, Cadillac driving pricks who you cant trust. I do what i do and wear a tool belt at least half a day. Framer by trade started in 1971, framed millions of dollars of high end custom homes for builders without ever using a contract. Never had a problem with any of them.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

KAP said:


> I assume when someone says friend, that's what they are talking about when asking for a referral, but the OP doesn't qualify it (i.e. - real or true) so that is an assumption on my end...


You know what happens when you assume. :laughing:

Seriously, I am constantly astounded by the amount of faith so many people put in so-called "friends" who are no more than acquaintances in reality. IOW, beer-drinking buddies or the equivalent.

Yes, I'm a firm believer in due diligence. If I fail in that respect, I'm ethically bound to eat the consequences.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Interesting read, I haven't been back since page 1 or 2. I'm always amazed at what bad business practices so many "professionals" are not only willing to admit to, but will also advocate. 

Doesn't matter if Uncle Murphy hasn't made his presence know to you _"in all your years of doing it like this"_, it still doesn't make it a good, sound business practice.

Any yet some people will argue differently. WTF? :blink:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

J F said:


> Interesting read, I haven't been back since page 1 or 2. I'm always amazed at what bad business practices so many "professionals" are not only willing to admit to, but will also advocate.
> 
> Doesn't matter if Uncle Murphy hasn't made his presence know to you _"in all your years of doing it like this"_, it still doesn't make it a good, sound business practice.
> 
> Any yet some people will argue differently. WTF? :blink:




It is crazy sometimes, for sure.

As far as my own practices, I share them when others share theirs or I otherwise feel it is appropriate. I wouldn't advocate many of them and don't care to defend most of them. They are what they are. :thumbsup:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Shellbuilder said:


> I doubt I would spend the time to explain my daily role in this business to you. Right now I have so much going on and so much in the pipeline, the communication side of things is my main priority. I could have done what the OP did, however I would let that thief take me to court before I would pay. And i would have only hired that quick because i was in a bind. My company is fast at what we do, there is no waiting time for slow poke subs and suppliers. I draw the plans and use 25 page contracts/specs for the work to make that happen and manage a crew of highly talented carpenters. My time is the hardest thing to manage.
> I get a sense that certain subs here think all GCs are lowlife cigar smoking, Cadillac driving pricks who you cant trust. I do what i do and wear a tool belt at least half a day. Framer by trade started in 1971, framed millions of dollars of high end custom homes for builders without ever using a contract. Never had a problem with any of them.



WTF dude, I like cigars and Caddys. :laughing:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Shellbuilder said:


> The few subcontractor contracts I have seen aren't specific enough for me and probably would be trouble to defend in court. The best practice is to work for reputable people.
> 
> Mind posting your contract? I assume your contracts have rescission clauses, LBP provisions, attorney fees, designated parking, work hours, signage, start and completion dates, excapulatory and arbitration clauses,brand name and model no. for all supplied material, insurance modifications,..... all the basics of an enforceable contract.


No I won't post it but of course it has all that stuff and a heck of a lot more. Enough to make it cover my legal size paper in a small font. Pretty detailed for simple two day jobs. My subcontractor agreement comes out to be over 5 pages but thats different. I paid good money to have it written up by my lawyer. I'm pretty confident in it.

If things have worked for you, great! I only want to know how someone doesn't have time to get contracts signed when it is their main job description.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> I doubt I would spend the time to explain my daily role in this business to you. Right now I have so much going on and so much in the pipeline, the communication side of things is my main priority. I could have done what the OP did, however I would let that thief take me to court before I would pay. And i would have only hired that quick because i was in a bind. My company is fast at what we do, there is no waiting time for slow poke subs and suppliers. I draw the plans and use 25 page contracts/specs for the work to make that happen and manage a crew of highly talented carpenters. My time is the hardest thing to manage.
> I get a sense that certain subs here think all GCs are lowlife cigar smoking, Cadillac driving pricks who you cant trust. I do what i do and wear a tool belt at least half a day. Framer by trade started in 1971, framed millions of dollars of high end custom homes for builders without ever using a contract. Never had a problem with any of them.


Shellbuilder, that's kinda' where I was going with this... you DO have contracts and things in writing (i.e. - plans, etc.) otherwise what are you submitting for permits? But what it comes down to and where you might want to consider you are exposing you and your client, is in due diligence as it relates to verifying license, insurance, WC, etc...

Do you realize that if you let a sub onsite without verifying this info, and something does indeed happen, insurance can be invalidated? It only takes one...

_*Consider as an example...*_ http://contractorsinsurance.biz/what-you-need-to-know-before-you-hire-a-sub-contractor.html

I guess as long as you make the clients aware and they are OK with giving you the go ahead, who am I to stand in the way of the inevitable?...


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> No I won't post it but of course it has all that stuff and a heck of a lot more. Enough to make it cover my legal size paper in a small font. Pretty detailed for simple two day jobs. My subcontractor agreement comes out to be over 5 pages but thats different. I paid good money to have it written up by my lawyer. I'm pretty confident in it.
> 
> If things have worked for you, great! I only want to know how someone doesn't have time to get contracts signed when it is their main job description.


Read my last post about what i do……the reality between a sub and a GC contract is a warm and fuzzy. A typical 4g contract would cost you 5g to defend it. Maybe more. I wouldn't be so naive about the judicial system.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

This.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

KAP said:


> Shellbuilder, that's kinda' where I was going with this... you DO have contracts and things in writing (i.e. - plans, etc.) otherwise what are you submitting for permits? But what it comes down to and where you might want to consider you are exposing you and your client, is in due diligence as it relates to verifying license, insurance, WC, etc...
> 
> Do you realize that if you let a sub onsite without verifying this info, and something does indeed happen, insurance can be invalidated? It only takes one...
> 
> ...


DUUUUUUDE, Its happened twice in 34 years, quit trying to make headlines!!!!! You don't make a mistake in over 10,000 days of business? And yes all customers sign a contract!!!


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Shellbuilder said:


> DUUUUUUDE, Its happened twice in 34 years, quit trying to make headlines!!!!! You don't make a mistake in over 10,000 days of business?


I make mistakes more often than I would like to admit, but I don't do it intentionally... 

Not trying to "make headlines", but this is an important topic... read that link... sounds familiar...


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

KAP said:


> I make mistakes more often than I would like to admit, but I don't do it intentionally...
> 
> Not trying to "make headlines", but this is an important topic... read that link... sounds familiar...


And what trade is "Custom"? custom what?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Now you're just being silly.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

KAP said:


> _*Consider as an example...*_ http://contractorsinsurance.biz/what-you-need-to-know-before-you-hire-a-sub-contractor.html


Please select a different example. While much of the information there is on-target, it's so poorly written that I certainly wouldn't use that as legal advice. My boys wrote better in ninth grade.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Which parts?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Still have avoided the question of what you're so busy doing but that's okay. You win.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Still have avoided the question of what you're so busy doing but that's okay. You win.


skim reading?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> Please select a different example. While much of the information there is on-target, it's so poorly written that I certainly wouldn't use that as legal advice. My boys wrote better in ninth grade.


I guess the same could be said for a lot of our posts... info good, writing bad... :laughing:

I used it for the example on that insurance site as it was along the same lines of Shellbuilder... many years doing it on the fly... only to find out it left himself and the customer exposed years after the work was performed... Guy worked for 26 years and still got whacked in the end for not doing what he was supposed to do...

Here's one from a SC Supreme Court ruling that deals with it directly... http://www.gwblawfirm.com/general-c...-each-time-a-new-contract-is-entered-into.php

Quote - *"The South Carolina Supreme Court in a recent opinion found that each time a general contractor enters into a subcontract agreement, it must verify that the subcontractor has insurance if it is to escape potential liability under workers compensation laws for subcontractor injuries."*

Here's one from Serivce Magic on insurance/liability citing a ruling about a Contractor not properly supervising the sub (kinda' like our OP)... http://www.servicemagic.com/article.show.Why-Subs-Must-Carry-Liability-Insurance.13828.html 

http://www.ehow.com/how_7989659_verify-workmans-compensation-insurance-subcontractors.html

I don't know how you can argue you are not negligent in your role of GC (proper supervision of a project) if you don't verify license, insurance, etc. but still allow them to work on a customer's job and something goes wrong... I don't understand the reason why you wouldn't just do it. There's no reason NOT to... "didn't have time" doesn't cut it... The sub could argue the same for letting insurance, license, etc... lapse, right? Didn't have time, and I've been doing this for years, and it never hurt anyone before...

As much as it sucks, in a world that's become MORE litigious not less, why would you not do what you're expected to do to not only protect the client, but yourself?

Hope those read a little better... :thumbup: :laughing:


.


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

Shellbuilder said:


> DUUUUUUDE, Its happened twice in 34 years, quit trying to make headlines!!!!! You don't make a mistake in over 10,000 days of business? And yes all customers sign a contract!!!


 34 years ??? Hire yourself a project manager. Things have changed a bit since then and you obviously dont want to


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

iDAHOchris said:


> 34 years ??? Hire yourself a project manager. Things have changed a bit since then and you obviously dont want to


No thanks, I've already been in the larger business of remodeling, 2 secretaries, 8 to 12 lead carpenters (never needed project managers for stick and brick remodeling)3000 sq ft showromm/office, part time salespeople,handful of apprentices. Yes things have changed, I can do 1/3 of what I used to do without all that overhead. A larger business made more money, in fact lots of money but the older I got the less I wanted todo that. Fortunately I acquired a slew of single family rentals that will float me through retirement.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Shellbuilder said:


> No thanks, I've already been in the larger business of remodeling, 2 secretaries, 8 to 12 lead carpenters (never needed project managers for stick and brick remodeling)3000 sq ft showromm/office, part time salespeople,handful of apprentices. Yes things have changed, I can do 1/3 of what I used to do without all that overhead. A larger business made more money, in fact lots of money but the older I got the less I wanted todo that. Fortunately I acquired a slew of single family rentals that will float me through retirement.


 When you say lead carpenter, do you mean a guy who runs the project with his nail bags on? Meets with subs, writes change orders, orders materials ( windows , doors ) release materials, ect... 

If so, was that a good system?


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Jaws said:


> When you say lead carpenter, do you mean a guy who runs the project with his nail bags on? Meets with subs, writes change orders, orders materials ( windows , doors ) release materials, ect...
> 
> If so, was that a good system?


Yes it is, worked well for me, one man is the contact for the owner, workload is designed to keep him busy there everyday. Helpers were sent out only to assist during roof framing , footing digs and pours, demo and some clean up.


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