# Do homeowners know what an estimate means??



## beapainter (May 29, 2008)

:wallbash:

I just started another exterior and after the first hour I realized that the painted cedar shake siding wasn't prepped the right way when previously painted. I scraped the lip where the shakes overlap to remove the build up and then take a thin scraper blade and literally push the blade up under the paint film and remove large sections of paint. The top coat is latex over oil based enamel. Very smooth surface with no evidence of sanding. I contacted the homeowner and did another walk around to show her what is going on. I will remove at least 60% of the latex off the shakes, which means a full exterior prime. I explained that, due to the previous paint job wasn't prepped the right way, the paint will fail due to the old paint film over two other paint films on top of stain. So, I will need extra materials and time to the job the right way. Needless to say the H.O isn't to happy. $$$$. My thoughts are should I be taking more time to test the paint film when I bidding?? It would allow for possibly a more accurate estimate, but it is after all an estimate. Another question I have is, when I run up on the cedar shake siding houses should I expect that this kind of issue will present itself?? No real answer in my opinion until you dive in and test it out.

Brian


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

no you need to put in your estimates, the possible scenarios that may occur regarding the painting of an exterior. write it, explain it during the contract revue. you must put yourself in the position that whatever occurs has been mentioned in your estimate as a possibility.


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## beapainter (May 29, 2008)

Very good point. I tend to get too relaxed when I'm meeting with the H.O. I try to put them at ease and show then that I'm going to do every thing the right way that I often leave myself in possible situations. I do explain that sometimes rotten wood will present itself that I or anyone else cant see until the work begins, and if it does I will inform them of what needs to be done and allow the h.o to decide if a replacement or band aid will work for them. Still learning the trade though. Every part of it, it seems.

Brian


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

dont sweat it brian, we are all learning something new every day, regarding your current situation, be honest with the HO be fair with the additional charges, and explain to her that you are just trying to do the correct job, you could have ignored the existing conditions and painted right over it, in a few years it would have failed, and she would have had problems. welcome to ct G


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## Snow Man (Aug 18, 2008)

beapainter said:


> :wallbash:
> 
> I just started another exterior and after the first hour I realized that the painted cedar shake siding wasn't prepped the right way when previously painted. I scraped the lip where the shakes overlap to remove the build up and then take a thin scraper blade and literally push the blade up under the paint film and remove large sections of paint. The top coat is latex over oil based enamel. Very smooth surface with no evidence of sanding. I contacted the homeowner and did another walk around to show her what is going on. I will remove at least 60% of the latex off the shakes, which means a full exterior prime. I explained that, due to the previous paint job wasn't prepped the right way, the paint will fail due to the old paint film over two other paint films on top of stain. So, I will need extra materials and time to the job the right way. Needless to say the H.O isn't to happy. $$$$. My thoughts are should I be taking more time to test the paint film when I bidding?? It would allow for possibly a more accurate estimate, but it is after all an estimate. Another question I have is, when I run up on the cedar shake siding houses should I expect that this kind of issue will present itself?? No real answer in my opinion until you dive in and test it out.
> 
> Brian


 Try to get them to sign up for a tear off and re-do. Faster and neater job.


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## kirbymurphy (Jun 5, 2008)

genecarp said:


> no you need to put in your estimates, the possible scenarios that may occur regarding the painting of an exterior. write it, explain it during the contract revue. you must put yourself in the position that whatever occurs has been mentioned in your estimate as a possibility.


Not only that, you must show it to them in the estimate and take 5 minutes to tell them about other hidden problems you have seen in the past. Customers have selective hearing, so you must reinforce what is in print by explaining it in words (and pix if you have any.

I had a guy that wanted a 8x16 porch roof over the front entrance. He was very specific in what materials he wanted and I asked him many questions as I sketched and took notes. I asked him if he wanted a bead board ceiling or a vinyl application. He answered neither-he wanted it left open for the feeling of height and some funky lantern he had in the garage.

After it was almost completed I stopped by and he asked when they would build the ceiling. Huh? I reminded him of our conversation and he went stupid on me. 

He said "You said it would be a vinyl soffit system."
I said "No, I asked you if you wanted vinyl or beadboard and you said you wanted it left open for your stupid lantern."

We went back and forth, with blood oozing from my tongue as I bit down with great force. My vinyl guy was on site for the fascia and beam wrap and agreed to do the ceiling for a really good price. Not a great loss, but it pissed me off. He was playing me and I knew it, but had no record. :furious:

Now, whenever I think about it while bidding similar situations, I write them in the contract in *big, heavy letters.*


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

You need to add into your contract a clause that says this is a contract of _what will be done_. Anything not mentioned in the contract will not be performed, until a change order is written and payment is received.


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## dirtdiggler pt2 (Aug 22, 2008)

One thing I did to combat that was to STOP giving estimates. 


I give "proposals." It overall/essentially says "this is your price and it is BASED on the following conditions. Should YOUR site/project NOT meet the conditions meant within this contract, [oops, i mean "proposal"], then you WILL incur additional costs."

It's basically a lump-sum amount ... but contains time & material extras as well. Best of both worlds.

I do not spend much time doing in-depth site surveys. It takes far more time and effort to conduct a proper site survey, cover all angles -- than I am willing to give away. 


In other words, I do not make my contract revolve around a client's project. I make the project revolve around my contract. 


This allows me to spend no more than one visit per prospect. The time I do spend with them is at the kitchen table. I do not break out the tape measure until the proposal is signed.



Yes ... this method works. I occasionally have to revise/reword things, but overall, I am happy with this method.


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## beapainter (May 29, 2008)

My estimates do state that any additional scope of work that is above and beyond the original scope of work will not be done until the H/O is informed and that they sign for the extra work be performed at additional charges. My concern is that due to the "Free Estimates" that most of us give, you don't spend any more time at the site any longer than you think you need to. 90% of the houses that I repaint have the T1-11 siding on them. Usually the issue are the trim being rotten, window sills, occasional siding. You can usually tell fairly easily if the trim is going to be a full scrape or just hit and miss with sanding, and then give a price accordingly. But the more cedar shake sided houses I estimate, the previous issues will come to mind and help out. I guess it is all about building a data base to bid by. Maybe the H/O was having a bad money flow day that day.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

Not sure about there, but here you cannot go 10% over your Estimated price. I'm sure if you wrap all sorts of conditions around it and be very specific about the Scope of Work that it would fly if you went over. But the word 'Proposal' just might get around all of that. Time to update my forms!


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Proposal or Estimate = Contract, when signed and agreed to by both parties involved.

Take more time on the "Bids" and "Estimates" and differentiate yourself for having all of the potential bases covered and increase your closing percentages through the additional perceived Professionalism.

Ed


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## beapainter (May 29, 2008)

Well I know that the extra charge is going to be 10% of the estimate easily. The problem with being limited to that 10% of the estimated price , especially on a repaint is you would be making the decision ....do I not prep this house the way that it should be prepped. I would be passing this situation on to the next guy. Definitely loosing any future painting with the H/O. Like I stated earlier is that the top coat is latex over un prepped or poorly prepped oil enamel. The top coat isn't secure enough in my opinion, and I wouldn't put my sign in the yard if I couldn't prep it the right way at this point. I can't walk away. And I can't make a living at absorbing the cost of materials and labor for the previous paint job not being done the right way. So I spend more time at the estimate phase, now that I know what could be an issue with this type of siding, definitely test the top coat for good adhesion, price accordingly and present the bid.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

dirtdiggler pt2 said:


> One thing I did to combat that was to STOP giving estimates.
> 
> I give "proposals."


I'm w/ dirt...I give proposals not estimates. If I do an 'estimate', it's for T&M b/c the situation is unknown to me. If I do a proposal, which turns into a contract when signed, it specifies what is to be done and when I have the foresight, what may pose a problem.


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

I never give an estimate
Just bids/proposals that become contracts/promises






*Well, OK, sometimes, for the weird stuff, where I know I may find some unseen problems (wall covering removal, wood rot, mold, etc.,) I will add a little "proposal based on testing, if unforseen problems arise, work will be halted until the H/O is apprised and options presented"


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

What Ed says is one way to go, another is this is a damn freak'n good excuse to charge for an indepth estimate!

For me if a painter was coming out to tell me how much to paint the exterior of my house I wouldn't expect any suprises later because the damn house exterior is accessible for inspection. Damit my boy, the house is right there, why don't you go look at it and figure out what it's going to cost? I say my boy, don't you understand I have you out here to tell me what this is going to cost for you to do it? And doing it means a proper paint job. If a proper paint job can't be guaranteed on every house no matter what the conditions, then............. it sure as hell makes sense you better be figuring out what conditions exist so you can speak intelligently about what it's going to take.

You know what I mean?









Now sure we have hidden defects clauses in our contract, but we are talking about stuff that is covered up, and I can't tell you the times I've told customers if they want to remove the possibility for extra costs, then knock a hole in the wall right here.

But unless I'm just way off base, you're talking about exterior paint on a house you have access to everything you would need to figure out what conditions exist.

Like I said, this is a damn good reason to charge a customer for a REAL paint estimate, one that inlcudes inspecting the conditions and removing as much contingency as possible.

I thinks it's one thing in regard to what you are talking about and another about finding rot 2 stories up tucked under an eve.


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## Midwest BuildIT (Mar 16, 2006)

Spend the extra time on the estimate. I hate the idea of free estimates, but around here everyone does them for free. I will generally never give an estimate on site. I usually, according to my customers, spend more time at the first visit than others that show up. I will do everything possible to find out the conditions of the work area. Then I will go home and think of everything that could possibly go wrong. From there i give my estimate. I have only gone over my estimate about 5-10% of the jobs over the past 6 years. I hate contractors that sell on a low price and then have a crap load of add ons at the end....


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## beapainter (May 29, 2008)

Yea taking more time to find things out is what I'll have to do. I'm a one man operation. When I run to do my estimates then all work stops where I'm working at. We all use the history of previous projects and try to give a bid accordingly. I haven't bid on to many cedar shake sided houses. So this is definitely being plugged in to the data base for the future.


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## painterdude (Aug 4, 2008)

beapainter....starting out is always tough. I'ts a good thing to stretch yourself and get more experience, but for the first few years you should stick to what you know. We all learn from our experience and get clobbered when we go where we haven't gone before. As you get more experience you'll learn how to bid and when not to bid. Sometimes you meet people and after a time you'll "forget" to send them a proposal. Be sure to tell homeowners and businesses that you'll send them a written price and include"what if's". Do it by email or thru the mail, but cover yourself and the homeowner so there are no questions as to what's included and what's not. People will try to take advantage of you if they see you're not sure. As for taking time away from your one man jobs to bid stuff...schedule your bids for late afternoons or first thing in the mornings. Or, make appointments for the weekends. hope this helps, pd


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## Flaky (Aug 20, 2007)

slickshift said:


> I never give an estimate
> Just bids/proposals that become contracts/promises
> 
> 
> ...


 
I work in the same market as Slickshift (Hello, Slick - I'm mostly in Chatham and Harwich), and I do just the opposite. Since I'm not as confident in my ability to estimate accurately, I try to get jobs on a time and materials basis, and use a sliding scale of hourly rates depending on how much I think the h/o is willing to pay and how bad I want the job. In my estimates for new customers I always include the language "This is an estimate only. Payment would be for actual hours worked plus cost of materials." This helps, because I've had several cases where owners don't know the difference between an estimate and a proposal, or pretend not to know the difference and act surprised when the actual cost is more than the estimate.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Flaky said:


> I work in the same market as Slickshift (Hello, Slick - I'm mostly in Chatham and Harwich), and I do just the opposite. Since I'm not as confident in my ability to estimate accurately, I try to get jobs on a time and materials basis, and use a sliding scale of hourly rates depending on how much I think the h/o is willing to pay and how bad I want the job. In my estimates for new customers I always include the language "This is an estimate only. Payment would be for actual hours worked plus cost of materials." This helps, because I've had several cases where owners don't know the difference between an estimate and a proposal, or pretend not to know the difference and act surprised when the actual cost is more than the estimate.


 
How do you give somebody an estimate if it's time and materials? That sounds retarded to me. 

I'd estimate it's going to cost $5600. Okay then write it up for $5600. Woah now, I said I estimate it will cost that, not that it will. Well, then how much is it going to cost? I don't know you're paying me $20 an hour and it's going to take awhile. Then what is the $5600? That's just an estimate. :blink:


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

A long time ago, when I was first starting out...

I told a guy (exterior) I'd do it time ($25 per hour) and materials.

Then he asked about what I thought the total might be...and I said $2500.

So he said: "Ok then, $25 an hour plus paint, up to $2500."

I said; "well, it might come to more than that"

and he said: "how much more?"

Me: "well, I don't really know"

So he got someone else to paint his house

HA!:w00t:


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## Flaky (Aug 20, 2007)

Steve and Mike,

You're right, most owners want to know what they're going to be paying. But painters want to know that we're going to get paid what we're worth. I've bid low on too many jobs and wound up making $10/hour. And when I bid high I never get the job. And in both of those situations I don't care as much about the quality of my work. Being a perfectionist, I really prefer a situation where I can do my thing the way I want to do it and know that I'm going to be paid fairly. Not many owners are willing to go that route, but the ones that are turn out to be good customers.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Working T&M is fine.

Giving an estimate/bid is fine.

but don't do both.


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

An estimate is an estimate, a contract is a contract. Estimates are "estimated" pricing (sometimes ballpark with additional pricing of finished materials to be figured out, etc.). Estimates should not have a place for a signature. 

Contracts are binding agreements with set costs and signatures of all parties involved.

If any contractor starts a job based on an unsigned estimate, they are playing russian roulette. Besisdes, the fact, that it's a against the law in some states.

When Doing a rough estimate...Put in writing, the areas that will need additional "confirmation" prior to issuing of the agreed terms and actual contract. I would think that if one is going to issue an estimate on paintwork, that they would inspect the existing paint surfaces first, before issuing any pricing...


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## capital city (Mar 29, 2008)

I do a estimate and guarentee the price as long they dont add items and as long as it does not include wallpaper removal. People want to know what they are paying and yes I do paint exteriors with alot of scraping, etc and still set the price. Sometimes I make more then I figured and sometimes less, but I dont charge more when it takes more time cause I sure as hell aint going to charge less when it takes less time. It all equals out and if it dont you need to hire an estimator. I can figure a job in 20 min just about everytime and on site. I have 2 kids and its only myself and 1 other worker, I dont have the time to spend 6 hours on a "free estimate". Some people may think your more thorough when you take longer some think that you dont know what the hell your doing. There is no way to understand what is going to work on all these different type of poeple, I am looking into buying a mobile printer so that I can take my laptop with me and do an onsite estimate and still have it typed and professional looking. Charlie


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## fenceauthority (Nov 26, 2008)

*Great Idea*



genecarp said:


> no you need to put in your estimates, the possible scenarios that may occur regarding the painting of an exterior. write it, explain it during the contract revue. you must put yourself in the position that whatever occurs has been mentioned in your estimate as a possibility.


I completely agree- at the start its useful to mention that unforeseen circumstances such as previous bad work or rotten wood found could result in an additional cost. 

Well put!
Fence Authority
fenceauthority.net


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## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Don't anyone know the difference between an estimate and a contract?

Estimate = Ballpark

Contract = An exact cost for something and both parties agreed.


Hey Capital City, I use the frankfortpainter.com lol


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