# Concrete apron



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I looked at this one today and it's anything but cut and dry.

The back story...the owner of the property which shares this common apron has been cited by the township and given 30 days to comply with replacement or face $1000.00 a day fines  Seems cars are bottoming out and getting damaged and pedestrians are tripping and having difficulty navigating the walk.

Owner claims it's a common drive and should not be responsible to pay...township sends out a surveyor and retrieves records that pin ownership to him with an easement which allows other residents to use it...including trash trucks mind you...yes, this surely sucks for the homeowner.

Since I felt bad vibes when talking to the owner (this is my township and I know they don't throw around fines like this everyday) I shot over to the township building and spoke to the head of code enforcement and other officials on hand. 

They told me he's been ignoring previous notices and has summonsed a commissioner in the town complaining about this "unfair treatment" and it's been nothing but back and forth for a while now, but still, nothing is getting done. 

Finally the owner agrees to pay and I surely understand his complaint, and has started to receive bids much higher than anticipated...township thinks it should cost around $2,500... a little low if you ask me but armed with this info, I called the inspector for this portion of Township and asked him to mark off the specifics for replacement so we're on the same page for the scope of work. 

When I visited the site to get my initial look and measure the work, it's apparent there's no way I can maintain a 2 percent slope on the sidewalk per code and not have cars bottom out and continue to get damaged. Either some of the street or alleyway will need to be cut back or a pardon placed for me to create a swale effect to smooth things out.

Back to the township I go and asked for a meeting between the inspector and township engineer so we can sort this out ahead of time and save everybody some aggravation. 

I'm just sitting here thinking, wait til the owner finds out he may now have to pay for a street opening and/or alley work to meet current code on the apron...seems awfully unfair to me that he would be pinned to these costs as well. Maybe the township will find a way to help this poor bugger out and chip in for some of the work. I believe some of the neighbors who use it should also help...unfortunately it's just not the way it is sometimes. 

Our meeting is scheduled for tomorrow at 930 am...I'll keep you updated.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Sidewalks end at curbs all over the place, except where there's a curb cut to allow for wheelchairs and whatnot. Is that the swale you're talking about?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Assuming that is his fence, and it has been up for 10 years, I would tell the city that they have acquired the property through adverse possession and they can adjust the deed accordingly, and fix it themselves.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Sidewalks end at curbs all over the place, except where there's a curb cut to allow for wheelchairs and whatnot. Is that the swale you're talking about?


I'm not sure what you mean Tin...My idea is to breach the 2 percent slope on the sidewalk portion of the apron to even out the steepness. Then of course you worry about pedestrians slipping in icy conditions because you've exceeded the max 2% 

see attached crappy azz drawing :laughing:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

That 2% max slope should say per code...that's the max they allow us.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> Assuming that is his fence, and it has been up for 10 years, I would tell the city that they have acquired the property through adverse possession and they can adjust the deed accordingly, and fix it themselves.


Our township would only do this if there was profit in it...I'm sure of it. 
Mind you, i really don't know for sure.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

This one looked about the same before.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I hope the price went up once you found out you have to sit in a meeting. :laughing:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

superseal said:


> I'm not sure what you mean Tin...


Not quite sure what you mean, either. :laughing:

Google sucks tonight; this is the best I could come up with.

You'd have to shift the ramped part inward so the walkway portion stays reasonably level, but that should make the sidewalk people happy.

Property owner, not so much.

Edit: crap, bad link. Hang on...


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Not the best, but gives you the concept.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

The sidewalk has to be moved, just like at that corner. No ins. co. will insure a side sloped sidewalk ( an invitation for a lawsuit ). Where I used to live every 2 years the town would come through and force sidewalk repairs on the homeowners. I would be shocked if the town paid a dime, they just about laughed at me in my town. They tried to make me responsible for water and sewer line under the street, that did not happen.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

greg24k said:


> This one looked about the same before.


You got tons of space there Greg to make it right...I only have 2.5ft, you have about 6ft.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> I hope the price went up once you found out you have to sit in a meeting. :laughing:


it may go way up once the engineer throws down the gauntlet :laughing:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

rrk said:


> The sidewalk has to be moved, just like at that corner. No ins. co. will insure a side sloped sidewalk ( an invitation for a lawsuit ). Where I used to live every 2 years the town would come through and force sidewalk repairs on the homeowners. I would be shocked if the town paid a dime, they just about laughed at me in my town. They tried to make me responsible for water and sewer line under the street, that did not happen.


I do handicap ramps as well and am somewhat experienced in this dept...this is a tough case for the homeowner, trust me. Yes, the walk would have to be offset into the alley in order to keep 2% on the sidewalk or they allow me to ramp the running slope by ripping further back. Both involve a rather large cut into the alley and side to side. I get what you're saying trust me. 

I can do I believe an 8.33% running slope given the rise on either side is less than 30" ...anything over 5% running is considered a ramp and has new sets of rules. We'll see what they say...there the boss on this one.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

It looks like the apron sunk near the curb-cut and it should come up about 1 1/2" above the street pavement for the gutter line near the curb cut, so after you get rid off all that broken up crap and raise the grade, you will be close...
The grade level on both sides of the apron doesn't look that steep. After all, this is existing curb cut, so it had to be done to the original city specs... Unless the city wants you to do entire street, if not you have to work with the existing grades.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

They may also agree if we can get it close, to apply existing structure code, although the public aspect of it leaves me wondering.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

greg24k said:


> It looks like the apron sunk near the curb-cut and it should come up about 1 1/2" above the street pavement for the gutter line near the curb cut, so after you get rid off all that broken up crap and raise the grade, you will be close...
> The grade level on both sides of the apron doesn't look that steep. After all, this is existing curb cut, so it had to be done to the original city specs... Unless the city wants you to do entire street, if not you have to work with the existing grades.


Yea, it will be coming up 1 1/2" above the street and that will help...we ain't doing no street trust me there...or should I say the homeowner ain't anyway. 

I think they're going to make us rip back the run of the walk and cut the alley back...seems like that's what i'm zoning into anyway as I pick my brain here. I've breached that 2% cross slope many times back in the day flaring these puppies out. Yea, it's illegal now but it's not as bad as most think if you keep it below 5%.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> Assuming that is his fence, and it has been up for 10 years, I would tell the city that they have acquired the property through adverse possession and they can adjust the deed accordingly, and fix it themselves.


Interesting...I know little about adverse possession I can tell you that.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

superseal said:


> Yea, it will be coming up 1 1/2" above the street and that will help...we ain't doing no street trust me there...or should I say the homeowner ain't anyway.
> 
> I think they're going to make us rip back the run of the walk and cut the alley back...seems like that's what i'm zoning into anyway as I pick my brain here. I've breached that 2% cross slope many times back in the day flaring these puppies out. Yea, it's illegal now but it's not as bad as most think if you keep it below 5%.


In cases like this when it gets this bad, some places here they make you take the curb out to the nearest joint and redo the entire portion of the curb on each side of the apron including apron curb, some places you must have an inspector on site from engineering department inspect the depth of the curb, make sure there is wire mesh, etc to make sure it meets all NJDOT requirements, make sure you have 6" apron and sidewalk depth, etc. 
If inspector checks the forms and not planning to stick around, you have to give him a copy of the concrete ticket to make sure you used 4,000 PSI mix to meet DOT standards and some places, they make you post a cash bond etc anywhere 1-3yrs before you get your money back.

Nothing is easy anymore.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

greg24k said:


> In cases like this when it gets this bad, some places here they make you take the curb out to the nearest joint and redo the entire portion of the curb on each side of the apron including apron curb, some places you must have an inspector on site from engineering department inspect the depth of the curb, make sure there is wire mesh, etc to make sure it meets all NJDOT requirements, make sure you have 6" apron and sidewalk depth, etc.
> If inspector checks the forms and not planning to stick around, you have to give him a copy of the concrete ticket to make sure you used 4,000 PSI mix to meet DOT standards and some places, they make you post a cash bond etc anywhere 1-3yrs before you get your money back.
> 
> Nothing is easy anymore.


Yep, here, if you're working on a state road or highway, the permit and inspection process must go through the state (Penndot) ...county, borough and township roads, you go through them. Everybody does things a bit different and enforcement can be extreme on non existent.

The meeting went well this morning...I shot a few lines and we discussed layout and all agreed we can get it close enough to not cause concerns. Keep in mind, I know these guys well as it's my hometown and they know I like doing it right. They basically said we ain't coming out with smart levels and tape measures on this one and will bless the job as discussed. They also thanked me for getting them involved before the fact , rather than after and praised my attention to details and concerns...always a good thing having the trust and respect of the inspectors.


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