# Getting sued for possible Bird defect



## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

Hello to all fellow roofers!
I have been roofing for 23 years and last week I got my first threat of a lawsuit. A Woodscape shingle roof installed in 1992. 
Customer already tore off and had roof re-done, now wants to sue me. 
Other roofer told him I did it all wrong becasue I ran the tar paper at a 45 degree angel. Also, they claim 1 1/4" nails were not correct.
Bird recalled these shingles and the buckeling after 15 years most likely occured from that, but now we have no evidence.
I need to defend my installation.
Does anyone have time to look at the pics via email?

Thanks so much!
Bob
[email protected]


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Statute of Limitations. What is it in your state? It probably has long ago elapsed.

That was 15 years ago for goodness sake. Just get a free consultation with your attorney and he will probably advise you to either ignore the unmeritous complaint or to tell the 15 years ago customer to pound sand.

Ed


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## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Bird defects reply*

Thank you , Ed, for your super fast reply. 
Here's the kicker. This customer also happens to be a litigation lawyer! He says the statue starts running when you notice the problem. We have consulted our own lawyer, but we can see the dollar signs adding up not that she has responded to his complaint. He will pay no money to fight and fight, we will.
What I was also hoping is your thoughts on 1 1/4" nails and running paper on an angle. I have benn taught by the best German roofer (Lutz) from New Jersey. I have never had a problem, but this other roofer has filled this guys head with all ideas that I have no idea how to install a roof. 
Also, he says some shingles only had 3 nails, not 4.
I had a crew with me, so I cant be 100% sure on that. But he wants $13,000 ! 
Bob


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

1 1/4" nails would be spec for a first or even a second layer roof. Find a supplier who has some old Bird paperwork laying around.

I think? Bird was taken over by Certainteed? Call Certainteed and see if they have records for Bird installation specifications.

Did the othe roofer or homeowner take photos of the alleged discrepencies? Do you have any photos?

Or is it just word of mouth?

Consult for free with your own lawyer first to see where you stand. 

Did the roof leak? If he says so, were you ever notified? Was it by certified letter or just a supposed phone call?

Why did you or do you still install felt paper on an angle versus parallel to the eave edge? No specification I have ever seenand read suggested that.

Did this homeowner receive the benefit of a leak proof roof for the past 15 years. I don't get it, so you better get a free consultation to see where you stand legally.

Ed


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

Bob-44 said:


> This customer also happens to be a litigation lawyer! this other roofer has filled this guys head with all ideas that I have no idea how to install a roof.


Back stabbing contractor :furious: Lawyers threaten but seldom act. Try the frivilous lawsuit defense. From what you said about 3 nails vs 4, the other roofer is clueless. S of L on work in Ca. is 5 years. Fight the SOB.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

What does the felt have to do with the roof? That's a question! If the roof was installed correctly, felt was unnecessary in the first place. HGTV and Bob Villa have often showcased roofs going on without ANY underlay. SO it's a moot point. IMHO

I've done it often when I ran short. Quit though when fiberglass shingles became mainstream.

But it should be installed paralell with the eaves, in just for reference lines that can let you know EARLY if something is off somewhere. 

The rest of it sounds like smoke and BS. Like Ed said, find some info on your own, etc. Heck you can even print from these forums if any answers seem relevant.


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## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

Yes, I have some pics. I can try to post them here, or can I email them to you, Ed?
My lawyer says settle with him for a few thousand before legal fees mount up. Also, says that our insurance really should help out, but our insurance (Natulis) says they wont back us because the claim in alleged "improper installation". We pay 5K per year for lialibility! For what?
Lawyer says we can and should get affidavits from other roofers saying that the installition process was acceptable.
As far as running paper like that, I was taught that way and it has never given me a problem, but now I guess I've learned to go by the book.
NO Leaks at all, not one call until a letter from this guy who is a big shot lawyer. He just said he noticed the roof looking "Odd" after 15 years. 
Also was told that the plywood now shows "early signs of Delamination" because the shingles were buckeling and moisture got in.
He really got an ear full from this other roofer. 
I just dont get why this is the first complaint in 23 years.
I do 99% slate now and I am GLAD!
let me know on the pics.
Bob
(thx, skyhook, too)


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Just post the photos so everyone can comment on them.

Also, felt paper may not have been required, just suggested, so that is why you need to check out the manufacturers original specifications from way back in 1992. Check out your old building code requirements too. If it does not say anything to the contrary, at least you have some leverage on your behalf.

I would not pay him anything and just call his bluff. If you do choose to make an offer, make it prorated based on either your original warranty length terms or the manufacturers length and only for the remaining prorated amount for materials only based on the costs of the materials from 1992, just like the manufacturers warranties state. Have you attorney draw up a release of any additional liabilities for you.

Also, the insurance company you have can not just assume from the homeowners implication that this is an installation only issue. They have a legally implied duty to serve their client. Ask your attorney about this also.

If you want to take a proper legal avenue, subpoena the other roofing contractor and proceed with a Discovery motion at ascertain his actual comments and not just those homeowner interpretations of his comments.

I have heard of legal issues regarding improper ventilation specifications being an issue after the implied statute of limitations has supposedly expired. 

You can do a google search on law cases regarding roofing issues after statute of limitations have theoretically expired to gain additional insight.

Ed


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## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Can't figure out how to post pic*

Hi All,
I have the pics as a pdf attachment to an email. I can't (for the life of me) get them from the email to this forum. Is anyone smart enough to do this if I email directly to you?

I am printing all of your thoughts out. And I really do appreciate all this imput (dont be afraid to be honest)

Bob


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

The instructions are either in the faq section, or you can do a search for it.

I have never done it, so I can not hep, but I do remember reading the instructions on how to do it.

Or, you can post a question in the "site help and suggestions" forum down below. That is probably where the instructions are posted anyway.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Yes, it was in there. Here are the instructions compliments of ProWallGuy, who took the time to post a sticky there.

Ed

*How to attach a photo to a post* 
All right boys and girls, follow these instructions to attach a photo, word document, excel spreadsheet, zip file, etc. to a post. 

EDIT: To attach an excel spreadsheet, you must put it in a zip file first.

First thing to do is find the attachment on your pc, and make a note of where it is located. I prefer to put attachments in a folder on my desktop. The folder is called 'uploadpics'. This makes it easy for me to find. All attachments must be 100kb or smaller in size. The following chart shows what type of attachments will work.
Attached Images









__________________


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## RooferJim (Mar 6, 2006)

You can call Bird warranty hotline at 1-800-247-3047 they were bought out by Certainteed but still make good on the claims. You should not be on the hook for a 15 year old roof that is assinine. fight them tooth and nail dont settle. Lawyers suck

RooferJim


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## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

*pics*

trying to do what you said, but I dont see the pic. I'll keep trying


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

E-mail them to me I'll post them for you, send PM so you can get my e-mail.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

I think he needs 20 posts before he can pm anyone here.

Ed


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Mods...........

Please remove this post it's not needed anymore.


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## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

Well, I managed to send some pics to Ron. 
Thank you all very much! 
I am in Vermont, hope someday I can re-pay you all for even considering all this

Bob


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Got em, I'll size them done and get them up on here, give me some time, right now I have to head back to work, a couple of hours.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Roof Pictures

Here is three will upload one more.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Last picture


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Hope those are what you wanted to be seen, if not, let me know, I'll crop and upload more if needed.


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## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

Thank you so much. 
You did such an awesome job. 
I can't thank you enough. 
Seeing how someone is willing to help a stranger has really helped my wife and my stress levels.
Regards, Bob


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

What are the round white spots in the 1st photo?

Is it mold?

There was some significant vertical buckling of the deck sheathing which caused the breach in the shingles water tight integrity it would seem.

It looked like there was a continuous ridge vent installed. Was the vent opening cut out and unblocked to allow interior air to escape?

Try to deduce what the obvious problems are that you think you see, and the causations of those problems from your own perspective, and maybe we could help shed some more light on the matter.

Ed


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

I don't see paper at 45 deg. It looks vertical to me, or am i missing something? What size nails other than 1-1/4" are you supposed to use?

When were these pics taken? Have the shingles been buckled like this for fifteen years?

On the vent (stack?) detail why is the flashing buried at the bottom?

Sorry to be all ?'s I'm really trying to help.:thumbsup:


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

*Venting*

Was there any other venting in the roof other than the ridge vent such as a pair of gable vents? Excessive heat and lack of ventilation could have caused the shingles to buckle. The lower stack shingles should not have been a problem unless it wass actually leaking and it would have done that fairly quick. I've always cut them out, but have replaced roofs where they were done that way and they weren't leaking. 

The roofer that redid the roof is kind of an a$$ in my opinion. I try not to bad mouth the previous guy if I don't have to....leave that to the HO. I usually don't have to make someone else look bad to make myself look good


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

The vent could have been installed correctly, but it's not an issue. Vertically run felt is not an issue. 
Round spots are cap nails.
The high nails in the shingles aren't the issue. 
Plywood buckling is not a roofer's issue. It's a building/builder's issue.

There is a trend trying to be started that claims the roofer is supposed to be able to determine moisture, mold, ventilation, and roof-framing issues.

Roofers upsell ventilation products, but are not responsible for understanding each house's individual issues. Shingle manufacturers are denying claims for shingle failures on ventilation issues. Real or perceived. 

Consider that half the homes with issues had asphalt/organic felt shingles on them beforehand with no issues. But after switching to fiberglass shingles, all of a sudden, it's up to the roofer to somehow figure out what is needed to keep an inferior product from failing!


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## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

The roofer who took the picture of the paper obviously wanted to make it look like the paper was run up and down and not on a pitch.
I pitch all my paper on about a 30 degree angle away from the top to create a pitch so water cannot run under the seams being that water runs down hill. 
On low pitched roofs I would run paper horizontally depending on the pitch of the roof. 
Along the bottom of the roofs, we run Bitithane Ice and Water Shield underlayment, but this roof must have been done before that product was available as bitithane has not been around for very long.
There are different lengths of nails that can be used as I'm sure all of you know. 
The smallest I have used has been 1", and the longest 1 1/2 in the nail gun. 
1" I have used where the roof boards are seen from below the room like an outside porch. 
I don't remember if there is any other venting like gable vents as I have not been to this house since the job was completed by me.
I would suspect that there is not however because the home is a log home and cathedral. 
Thanks for all your advice.
Bob


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## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

I wanted to elaborate a bit more on the paper issue. 
The roofer who took the picture took the picture only showing a few ft of the paper vertically and he took a picture from the edge looking away from the paper not directly in front of the paper. 
This tactic is very sneeky and a judge would not know the difference in this tactic. I'm sure the judge would just say the paper looks straight up and down which it is not. 
I have left roofs with #30 lb felt on the roof for 2 mths run up and down pitched with NO leaks in the past waiting for slate to arrive from the quarry.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

1 1/4 nails is what Certainteed will tell you.

I don't see a big enough problem here to warrant someone getting sued. 
Was the job inspected that many years ago? Just wondering, because it could give you a leg to stand on.

Stay tuned on this forum though. Alot of useful knowledge from some of these guys. :thumbsup:


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## Same Old (Mar 9, 2007)

Out of curiosity, why do you run your felt at an angle?


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## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

*paper*

It seems to stay flatter longer when I run the paper on angle. Maybe I'm nuts on that. It just was the way I was taught and it worked well until now.......

The round spots are roof tins.

Thanks again everyone for helping me!

Bob:clap:


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## NickofTime (Mar 12, 2007)

hi bob44i have some news about birdshingle


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

I used to lay 90 # that way on the old Chicago 2 flats with a full walkin attic on 12/12 pitches.

That is still very common in Chicago, but I don't do that type of work anymore.

That was when I was apprenticing in the roofers union and wanted to make some side money.

Ed


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

My opinion, you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

1. Statue of limitation 
2. Recall on the shingles 
3. them not calling you about the problem and having someone else do the work 

There are previous lawsuits similar in construction that states HO's, if they want a true prosecutable lawsuit, they need to tell the paid contractor that there are problems and you need to be given the time to evaluate and fix if the problem is truly yours.

A judge will look at the precedence over anything else in court. 

Even if it did go that far, their "expert" is the roofer that replaced yours. If you have any type of decent lawyer defending you, he/she will look into HIS past to see if anything has been brought against him. And even still, your lawyer will grill this guy on the stand to make him look like a complete idiot. That's their job.

But it will NEVER get that far. I don't know the exact figure, but people who take it all the way to a lawsuit is like 1 in a 100. It's very minimal.

Don't bother wasting your time money retaining a lawyer. You can say anything, and do anything you want, but be careful who you say it to. Watch the ground you walk on so to speak.

If anything, it will probably go to an arbitrator at the most. And this will be if both sides agree to an arbitrator. And still yet again, the outcome, if not favorable to you, you can say no to the arbitration results.

They will be spending thousands of dollars trying to get the money out of you.

I would suggest calling them and having a civil discussion. Show them you are a professional and will stand by your installation being correct. There can be many other reasons why the shingles buckled. Tell them you're sorry, but a roof that old will not be under your warranty coverage. Don't have a discussion with them if the other roofer is there. That's not businesslike and you won't do that!


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

Did the HO even give you the opportunity to correct any issues that he thinks were your fault?

If not and he just did it and hands you the bill afterwards, I fail to see how you could be liabile for anything without even being given the option to give your side of the story before someone else makes changes destroying any evidence.


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## bill r (Feb 19, 2007)

I'd get Certainteed involved, not with a threat but with a respectful request for assistance from a business partner. They got lawyers accustomed to dealing with rattlesnakes. Their current warranty, best I can determine, only requires underlayment under certain conditions. Their warranty payouts are (appropriately) extremely heavily discounted for elapsed time and limited to supplying new shingles. Bob, you got nothing to apologize for. Bad things do happen to nice people.

edit: Tell them the case is creating quite a buzz on the internet among installers.


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## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Nick, I'd love whatever info you have on Bird*



NickofTime said:


> hi bob44i have some news about birdshingle


:blink: I really want to hear anything anyone knows about these old Bird shingles.
thanks!
Bob
[email protected]


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## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

Ed the Roofer-Where are you from? You speak of Chicago.
We have close friends in Oak Forest in Cook County. Are you near there?
Bob


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

I used to live in the South suburbs 25 years ago. my whole family still lives in Palos Heights, Lemont, and Orland Park.

Oak Forest has a real well rated public golf course thats better than most high priced courses if I remember correctly.

I went to school in Oak Lawn, at Richards HS.

Now, I am enjoying the Fox River area in the NW suburbs.

Didn't Bird or was it Flintkote(?), have a munufacturing facility out around Joliet or Bolingbrook? Down the road from the White Fence Chicken restaurant I think.

Ed


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## Bob-44 (Apr 12, 2007)

Gee, I don't know much about that. I've only visited them in Oak Forest once. LOVED Chicago and China Town. My friend (who is really my son's girlfriend's dad) is a union carpenter , works in downtown Chicago.

Anyway, I am in the woods of Vermont. I try so hard to live a simple life, but it sure is hard.

Bob


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Man, I just spent about 1/2 an hour reading this thread and then find out that it is an old one! And we was left hangin'! Well, maybe Bob took the advice here to beat the crap out of the guy and now he rots in jail. You know Vermont is a socialist state; maybe he didn't go to jail, he was sent to NJ. :cheesygri


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Mike(VA) said:


> Man, I just spent about 1/2 an hour reading this thread and then find out that it is an old one! And we was left hangin'! Well, maybe Bob took the advice here to beat the crap out of the guy and now he rots in jail. You know Vermont is a socialist state; maybe he didn't go to jail, he was sent to NJ. :cheesygri



I'll be damned! i read to page 3, ran out of patience and jumped to page 5 to find your post. You had to go and ruin it:laughing:


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## dinkisdad (Apr 6, 2006)

I thought it was a new thread too. Apparently i've got too much time on my hands this morning. I'm feeling a bit ripped off.

Is there a time back guarantee on this board? I want the last 20 minutes of my life back before I started reading this thread.

Merry Christmas

Dave


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