# 12 x 24 on Ditra?



## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

looking at a small foyer, about 120 sq. ft.

client wants 12" x 24" 1/2" ceramic either in a brick or parqet pattern

i have always used Ditra under my tile, but i have never used tile larger than 13 x 13 and schluter doesnt recomend using under larger than 12x12 (i think)

so... does anyone have experiance using larger ceramic tiles on Ditra?

if it is absolutely a no-no, what should i use? 1/4" hardi backer?


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

world llc said:


> looking at a small foyer, about 120 sq. ft.
> 
> client wants 12" x 24" 1/2" ceramic either in a brick or parqet pattern
> 
> ...


Not a Ditra guy,others has more experience..Ditra XL? As far as I know,you can use Noble Seal TS or DalSeal. There are much more products marketed by DalTile for underlayment for large format tiles.
What is the subfloor? Slab?Ply?Deflection is the more important question here..


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## Jaz (Apr 28, 2011)

> schluter doesnt recomend using under larger than 12x12 (i think)


I have no idea where you got that from. Not true. The only limitation is to not install tile under 2x2" on Ditra. I just finished setting 16x24 over Ditra.

Jaz


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

sub is 3/4" T&G ply

was going to use standard ditra, not the XL

will noble actually stop potential cracking from deflection? haven't used it as it's not available at the local dal unless i want to buy a roll...


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

Jaz said:


> I have no idea where you got that from. Not true. The only limitation is to not install tile under 2x2" on Ditra. I just finished setting 16x24 over Ditra.
> 
> Jaz


it's in my head like i read it in the install instruction years ago... i could be wrong, it's been a while since i read through it


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## Jaz (Apr 28, 2011)

> will noble actually stop potential cracking from deflection?


There is no product that will stop cracking from too much deflection. Did you think Ditra did that?

Jaz


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

world llc said:


> sub is 3/4" T&G ply
> 
> was going to use standard ditra, not the XL
> 
> will noble actually stop potential cracking from deflection? haven't used it as it's not available at the local dal unless i want to buy a roll...


Noble TS or DalSeal sold by the foot, not rolls.
No product is gonna fix deflection,as jaz said, you need to make subfloor more solid. Find out the how far joists are and the span.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

astor said:


> Noble TS or DalSeal sold by the foot, not rolls.
> No product is gonna fix deflection,as jaz said, you need to make subfloor more solid.


You can buy rolls of Noble... I think they are 100 linear feet


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

i have been reading the install guide online... there has to be 10x the ammount of info in it as when i had read it back when... and i have not found size limitations (other than too small) maybe it has changed or i am just confused...

i was always under the impression that ditra would aid in displacing deflection. obviously enough will crack through anything stuck to the floor.

joists are 16 OC

having re-read the install guide, i think i will be ok installing over ditra


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

Tech Dawg said:


> You can buy rolls of Noble... I think they are 100 linear feet


yep, thats all they can sell me... a 500 sq. ft. roll


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

What's the joist span of the foor?


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

astor said:


> Noble TS or DalSeal sold by the foot, not rolls.
> No product is gonna fix deflection,as jaz said, you need to make subfloor more solid. Find out the how far joists are and the span.


the sub is solid

we used to lath and mud under our tile til we were introduced to ditra about 6 or 7 years ago. it's so much faster and lighter that it's all i have known since then


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

Tech Dawg said:


> What's the joist span of the foor?


that i don't know.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Jaz, why did you start a new account?


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

I thought that name was familiar...


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

Tech Dawg said:


> You can buy rolls of Noble... I think they are 100 linear feet


Well, his job is only 120 sq.ft. Unless he wants to keep the rest:whistling I understood he does not want a roll.
I ma sure they sell by truck as well.
If local Dal does not, you can always order direct from Noble, online as little as you want(min 5 sq.ft)


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Its too much to order direct from Noble... Mid West Trade tool is more comparible to Dals price and I think Rich sells it by the foot there :clap:


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

i know there is alot to assume in the question of what would be better, BUT...

will noble over 1/4" hardi (for height) going to work better than ditra?

at the end of the day, noble over cmu is going to be more $/ sq. ft. material and more labor. if you tile boi's know it will out proform ditra, i will figure for it in my estimate.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

world llc said:


> i know there is alot to assume in the question of what would be better, BUT...
> 
> will noble over 1/4" hardi (for height) going to work better than ditra?
> 
> at the end of the day, noble over cmu is going to be more $/ sq. ft. material and more labor. if you tile boi's know it will out proform ditra, i will figure for it in my estimate.


I would say no. That's a lot of extra work just for a specific membrane.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Check your deflection on that floor assembly. I would bet that you have a floor with a deflection rating of L/360 and not the L/720 that it should be for that large format tile.

If space allows you might add another layer of 1/2" plywood to help. If your lucky the floor is good to go as is.

I order direct from Nobel and Quick Drain USA for my Nobel TS here in Vancouver and the local Rona sells Ditra by the foot. I noticed in TileLetter today that Spider Web looks a lot like Durval. 

Does anyone know if they are the same manufacture?

JW


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

Since when does large format ceramic require L/720 deflection? You're thinking of natural stone.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

HS345 said:


> Since when does large format ceramic require L/720 deflection? You're thinking of natural stone.


Greg any tile to my understanding with one length over 16" requires the same floor deflection requirements as natural stone.

I'm sure Brian, Bill or Angus can confirm this.


http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/flooring/msg0514414526745.html

A failing project... on Garden Web

NTCA training on Large Format Tile and NTCA updates October 18, 2011

http://www.tile-assn.com/Events/ShowEventDetails.aspx?eventid=82



ee3 said:


> Currently, large format is any tile with a 15" side.(15" X ?" ).
> 
> DEFLECTION (more or less)
> L"/360 = LENGH/ 360 or 720
> ...


CTIOA FIELD REPORT 2001-11-19

http://www.ctioa.org/reports/fr81.html


DEFLECTION - ARE CURRENT STANDARDS FOR CERAMIC & STONE TILE FLOORS REALISTIC ?
by Richard P. Goldberg AIA, CSI Architect –Professional Consultants International, LLC

http://www.proconweb.com/pdfs/publi...on_-_are_current_standards_realistic_2001.pdf






JW


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> Greg any tile to my understanding with one length over 16" requires the same floor deflection requirements as natural stone.
> 
> I'm sure Brian, Bill or Angus can confirm this.
> 
> ...


There is nothing to confirm. There is no such requirement in either ANSI, or TCNA guidelines. The L/360 guideline holds true for large format ceramic tile.


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

ditra is the bomb !:thumbup:

enough said !


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## CDC54 (Dec 28, 2009)

12x24 on Ditra.


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

CDC54 said:


> 12x24 on Ditra.
> 
> View attachment 54721


Uh oh.....hope ya had L/720. :laughing:


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

Deiter is the man !


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## CDC54 (Dec 28, 2009)

I went to M820 just to be on the safe side.


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

Isn't that a marine issued sniper rifle. Chad.


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## CDC54 (Dec 28, 2009)

Possibly lol


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

http://www.schluter.com/print/5140.aspx
i wasn't sure what all the l/360 alk was about so i googled it and found a gem of an article! i could only digest a small amount, i will have to re read...

but what i did learn is that there is alot more to tileing than just laying the tile... 

i am glad i stumbled onto this info...


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

CDC54 said:


> I went to M820 just to be on the safe side.


:laughing:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Deflection is hugely important when specifying a tile job over framing. I'd bet to guess a good 40-ish% of failures are because the installed didn't bother with deflection issues. 

As for large format ceramic (porcelain), there are no published requirements I'm aware of that state anything more than L/360. For my own personal preference, I like to have a minimum of L/480 with a fabric membrane. 

Obviously, L/720 and 2 layers of ply is even better. However, just because it's better doesn't mean I'm going to start requiring that setup for 12x12 porcelain :jester:

The larger the tile, the more deflection can affect it. Always use a quality thinset too!


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

do any of you actually do the 300lbs test? 

i found a thread on jlc where they were talking about placing a laser mid-span then adding 300 lbs and measuring the differance... 

i think that is pure professionalism that someone knows their trade that well.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

world llc said:


> do any of you actually do the 300lbs test?
> 
> i found a thread on jlc where they were talking about placing a laser mid-span then adding 300 lbs and measuring the differance...
> 
> i think that is pure professionalism that someone knows their trade that well.


Id better start eating more whoppers and fries :laughing:


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

world llc said:


> do any of you actually do the 300lbs test?
> 
> i found a thread on jlc where they were talking about placing a laser mid-span then adding 300 lbs and measuring the differance...
> 
> i think that is pure professionalism that someone knows their trade that well.


Could you post a link to that thread please? I personally don't see what point loading with 300 lbs could tell you over and above the standard calculations for deflection.


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

HS345 said:


> Could you post a link to that thread please? I personally don't see what point loading with 300 lbs could tell you over and above the standard calculations for deflection.


http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45989

the posts in the thread and the info on hyperlinks is very interesting...


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

world llc said:


> http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45989
> 
> the posts in the thread and the info on hyperlinks is very interesting...


That was a pretty neat thread... I was just amazed to see no spamming or kerdi arguments... :laughing:


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

well, i ripped up the old tile and underlay ply today. got the tile and the ditra XL. It looks like it might be a hair high assuming that a 1/2" x 1/2" comb will leave me with 1/8" of height overall. Am i asking too much to use a 1/4" x 3x8" comb to install 12 x 24's in un modified?


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## CDC54 (Dec 28, 2009)

1/2x1/2" should leave a 1/4" I think.


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