# Finished drywall!!



## JLC (Jul 11, 2012)

I had a sub-contractor do some drywall work for me. When I inspected the finished work, I found all kinds of areas that were not sanded properly and you can see the sanding marks (He used 180 grit to finish it). When I told him about it, he told me that if you stand back five (5) feet from the wall and see no "blemishes", the work is good to go and there should be no "bitc*ing" about the work. 

Sorry, I inspect all work at a distance of 6 inches with a light. If not "perfect", the job is not done. I told him that this job is a "level 5", not a level 3. He said he never heard of that. I told him I never heard of the five foot rule. I guess the five foot rule has been around since the late 1960's!!

Is this guy for real??? Has anyone ever heard of the five foot rule or am I just a picky perfectionist???? :blink:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

What's the contract say?


What's your state consider acceptable?

Without actually seeing it, no one can say for sure, personally I say prime the walls and see what it looks like, secondly using a 500 watt halogen 6" from the wall your guaranteed to see defects on more then just the taping and sanding. 

Our Tarion warranty program says 8' from the wall after paint


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## WilsonRMDL (Sep 4, 2007)

I don't accept anything less than a "level 5". That being said, I think level 5 shoul be standard finish. 

I don't go around leaving big gaps in trim Saying you didn't pay for a level 5 trim job, same should apply for all trades.

Quality work should be what it is bid for.


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## FRAME2FINISH (Aug 31, 2010)

I wouldn't be real close but close enough to see and areas that could be seen close up yea I'd be picky

I hired a guy after hearing he was good 

No crap his name was close enough drywall oh boy the references he got were great

All I could think about was these people would call me god if I ever did their work

I finished it up so I guess he got it close enough for me to finish it lol


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Chris Johnson said:


> What's the contract say?


This.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

Unless you told him upfront you'd be inspecting at 6 inches away with a light, I'd say the fault is not his alone. 

If I called a guy in and said "go ahead, tape and spackle", I'd expect a need for a little touch-up here and there after priming.


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## Part Time Taper (Sep 2, 2012)

I would fix the stuff myself and never use him again. He sounds like hes making excuses for **** work. Any little blemishes that I find I fix them. It doesn't matter to me if its 2 inches or 2 feet.


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

Iintroduce him to the 400 dollar rule ? its the if i spend up to 4 hrs fixing the job i charge 400 for your screw ups


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## Part Time Taper (Sep 2, 2012)

A-1 INTERIORS said:


> Iintroduce him to the 400 dollar rule ? its the if i spend up to 4 hrs fixing the job i charge 400 for your screw ups


How would you ever collect? If he says go pound sand what can you do?


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## scottktmrider (Jun 24, 2012)

Have you gave him all his money?You should not give him all his money till the job is 100% that way you have him over a barrell,but than again mabye he cant finish drywall that good.In that case you get somebody in or your self to finish it than take that money out of his end pay.


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## ryanshull (Nov 1, 2012)

6" with a light is a little extreme, but if the only issue is sanding marks, you can fix an entire room in fifteen minutes with a fine sanding sponge (or he could) He needs to do this in order to get paid for a complete job in my opinion. If you can see it, it will show through the paint.


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

Part Time Taper said:


> How would you ever collect? If he says go pound sand what can you do?


I guess ya pound sand then  or go sand ... the walls that is :laughing:
Live and learn I guess


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## 11678 (Jan 11, 2007)

A little search found a 5 foot rule, whether it is enforceable ?
http://www.dwfc.org/wp-content/file...Inspecting_-_Interior_Wall_Surfaces_FINAL.pdf


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## bazooka steve (Jan 30, 2012)

Do you guys even know what. Level 5 finish is complete s kim coa t which means extra cost which Im sure you don't want to pay for and you probably beat the guy down to nothing anyway.sound like you're being a whine ass to me


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Level 5 takes very little additional product and often times saves time because it eliminates 90% of touch ups. 

At Ohio Home Doctor in Dayton Ohio we level 5 ALL of our projects to ensure the highest quality finishes for our valued clients.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Level 5 takes very little additional product and often times saves time because it eliminates 90% of touch ups.
> 
> At Ohio Home Doctor in Dayton Ohio we level 5 ALL of our projects to ensure the highest quality finishes for our valued clients.


So what your saying is Ohio Home Doctor in Dayton, Ohio cares so much about their end product that they require level 5 drywall finish on all their remodels, additions, kitchens, bathrooms, basement finishes and custom homes.:thumbsup:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

bazooka steve said:


> Do you guys even know what a Level 5 finish is? Another complete skim coat, which means extra cost


Fixed it.:thumbsup:

But yeah I was thinking the same thing.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Level 5 takes very little additional product and often times saves time because it eliminates 90% of touch ups.
> 
> At Ohio Home Doctor in Dayton Ohio we level 5 ALL of our projects to ensure the highest quality finishes for our valued clients.


Very little is still additional product. We both know the cost is in the labor though. An extra coat of mud is still extra. It also takes more paint, and labor, to paint level 5.

What I really want to know is do your customers understand the difference between what you offer and what most others offer?

How do you sell that difference when ,at least in my experience, If you put Joe HO face to face with level 5 finishing and something less, they couldn't tell the difference?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> What I really want to know is do your customers understand the difference between what you offer and what most others offer?


I like to think so since I charge a little more than most the guys around me. I try not to let my clients ignorance get in the way of offering top quality installations. 

They are hiring me because they cannot or do not want to gc their own projects and thus I provide them with a service which includes all sorts of upgraded quality goodies, level 5 drywall finishes just being one of them.

Lastly, since my detailed proposals stated clearly that the finish is to be level 5 they know they are getting it whether they know what it is or not.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> If you put Joe HO face to face with level 5 finishing and something less, they couldn't tell the difference?


I dont know about that Jeremy. I really think most people now a days are able to see the difference in the quality and smoothness of a wall finish. It is one of the finishes that really does matter in my opinion.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

"First off - the contract did call for a level 5 finish. The price he charged for hanging and finishing 8 sheets (4x12) of drywall was over $1200.00"

8 sheets of what? Ceiling? Wall? How hight? 8sheets of what 1/2" 5/8" who bought materials. That price tells us nothing. So your point that you paid him $x is just......

180 grit 150 or 220 if you not careful you can make a mess with all of them.

There is no PERFECT.
If you think you can do it PERFECT maybe you should do it yourself and than call a home owner give him a 500watt light, show him or her your way of inspecting the job and tell customer that if they see something that means it is not perfect and therefore they can keep 40% of the money.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

" He is just lazy about his work and trying to pull one over on me, as many subcontracotrs here seem to do."
If you start thinking that it is all of them maybe it is you.

"No, I didn't pay him in full, as I always pay the last 40% AFTER everything is perfect."
I wonder who come up with that payment schedule? 
You are not going to pay a guy $480 because there are some imperfections? I would take your arrrs to court next day.

The guy was using 180 grit for finish sanding - and a good drywall person KNOWS that that does not get it done. 
How you know what he used?? you can tell by looking at the wall or you where standing behind him.? I use 180 on a poll ever day a follow up with a sponge.

"All the work I have ever done for a customer gets a level 5 finish - no matter what!!" 
single mother with 3 kids living from paycheck to paycheck I will still charge her for level 5 she likes it or not. because "My name is on the job"
ohh and " I want it to be perfect." 

"If subcontractors can't do the work they are hired to do - they need to go work at McDonalds!!"
Be careful one day you might need that job and I dont eat there but I respect everbody who works.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor- "The other advantage is it eliminates the roughing of the drywall paper" Why would you rough the paper in the first place????


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

During sanding the feathered edges Zack. Have you honestly never seen this? Its noticible on all jobs of level 4 and lower when a satin or greater sheen is selected.


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## ryanshull (Nov 1, 2012)

It was you, wasn't it.......Zach


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I dont get it..


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## ryanshull (Nov 1, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I dont get it..


Edited


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

yes I have seen it and i see it every day because some guys are not careful when they sand and run with the poll or whatever they use allover the place. The only place you should sand is where the compound is. 
I recognize some of your points but not this one because that will mean that you charging people more money because your sub do not know how to sand properly.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Zack78 said:


> yes I have seen it and i see it every day because some guys are not careful when they sand and run with the poll or whatever they use allover the place. The only place you should sand is where the compound is.
> I recognize some of your points but not this one because that will mean that you charging people more money because your sub do not know how to sand properly.


You're splitting hairs at best. First I didnt say I was charging anyone more money. Its the way we do it, period. Secondly, sanding only where the compound is is a ridiculous notion that negates the entire concept of a feathered transition. Lastly, if you like my facebook page Ill tell you how to negotiate high quality at the same price from your subs..


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Ohiohomedoctor- yes some paint are more forgiving than others that why sub and gc should have the conversation long before the job is started. 
I ask my customer a lot of questions before I even pull my tape. But the point is that if you have bad job it do not matter what level you apply.
JLC complained about sanding marks so level 4 or 5 if the job is bad no matter what level you have.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

"Lastly, if you like my facebook page Ill tell you how to negotiate high quality at the same price from your subs.."

see that is why some of Gc run to problems because they beat the price down and still expect PERFECT. 
All you need is a fair price for a good work again good not perfect there is no perfect.
About sanding i am sorry but you just dont get it.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Zach, at Ohio Home Doctor we have no bad job.. Your post was either slang or some sort of broken vernacular I didnt fully understand.

Also, people still go to jlc? I thought that place was growing into the most heavily advertised ghost town around..

If the people at jlc were talking about sanding marks then they should do a better job and charge less :laughing:, or level 5 everything like we do which was the intent of my post to help those who needed it.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Zack78 said:


> "Lastly, if you like my facebook page Ill tell you how to negotiate high quality at the same price from your subs.."
> 
> see that is why some of Gc run to problems because they beat the price down and still expect PERFECT.
> All you need is a fair price for a good work again good not perfect there is no perfect.
> About sanding i am sorry but you just dont get it.


Thats better I could read that one. Please advise me how to sand only the compound.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

ok "you dont get it " is like asholeee comment from my site. 
ok when you sand you should sand only compound not paper. Yes there is 
a line between mud and paper that is why you have to be very careful to not go to paper so you dont damage it. Some guys just do a bad taping job and than they have to sand like out of hell or they don't sand after 2nd coat there is a lot of reasons why people find themselvs sand forever.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Jlc is the person who start the conversation. not journal of light construction


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

"Zach, at Ohio Home Doctor we have no bad job."
according to who's standards? yours?


. Your post was either slang or some sort of broken vernacular I didnt fully understand.
English is not my first language I am doing my best.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Lets get a couple things straight here Zach. You sand drywall, I admittedly dont so I will take what you're saying seriously. Now there is no way to sand just the compound, period. Thats why we level 5.

I realize that you having to toil away drywalling every day are probably about as crazy about skim coating your projects as our highly qualified subs are because you are convinced that your work is so nice that you dont need to. The funny thing is that when we, the gc, pay your boss to do it you do it every time..

Now to conclude, If you are having a meeting with the gc and drywaller and painter about minimum qualities to coincide with selected finishes rough paper is the least of your worries, Zach.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Zack78 said:


> "Zach, at Ohio Home Doctor we have no bad job."
> according to who's standards? yours?
> 
> . Your post was either slang or some sort of broken vernacular I didnt fully understand.
> English is not my first language I am doing my best.


Thanks for clearing that up. You're doing great that being said..


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Zack78 said:


> Jlc is the person who start the conversation. not journal of light construction


Thanks for clearing that up too.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Damn mr. ohimsohi, you are an a$$$$.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

Zack78 said:


> So what you want to know about the job? Will be happy to answer


This whole thread is about a little dab of drywall that wasn't done good enough. Did you finish this particular drywall?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

What is your "first" language Zack?


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> I'll bet he's 34 and with a name like Zack probably not Hispanic.


You shoul be working for CIA:clap:


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

donerightwyo said:


> This whole thread is about a little dab of drywall that wasn't done good enough. Did you finish this particular drywall?


Yes. With 2 other people who where very good much bedder then me. I learn a lot about drywall from those 2 guys.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

J F said:


> What is your "first" language Zack?


Polish I was born in 1978 as you can tell in Chicago Il moved to Poland when I was 2 came back when was 25 9 years ago


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

There we go, Ohio will be glad to hear it:thumbsup:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Zack78 said:


> Yes. With 2 other people who where very good much bedder then me. I learn a lot about drywall from those 2 guys.


So let me get this straight so there is no mistakes here. You and two other guys did the drywall that the OP is complaining about?


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

donerightwyo said:


> There we go, Ohio will be glad to hear it:thumbsup:


to hear it what? about the job?


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> So let me get this straight so there is no mistakes here. You and two other guys did the drywall that the OP is complaining about?


? no body complain about my job. My wife maybe. " are serious? you going to work 3 sunday this month?"


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Zack78 said:


> Polish I was born in 1978 as you can tell in Chicago Il moved to Poland when I was 2 came back when was 25 9 years ago


Thank you. Don't give up here, it's a tough crowd.































I haven't read all the previous pages, so I claim the right to rag on you later if it is warranted. :laughing:


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> So let me get this straight so there is no mistakes here. You and two other guys did the drywall that the OP is complaining about?


who is OP?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Zack78 said:


> ? no body complain about my job. My wife maybe. " are serious? you going to work 3 sunday this month?"


Do you run a bazooka gun, roller, glazer, nail spotter, skim box, angle box


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> Do you run a bazooka gun, roller, glazer, nail spotter, skim box, angle box


hand


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Actually I have all the taping tools do you want to buy it?
I will give you a deal


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

ohh god I am not starting a hand vs tool war. It is 1:58


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

You have a gun,? What brand? And do you have the pump?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Zack78 said:


> who is OP?


OP = Original Poster, the thread starter, in this case, YOU.

The OP is Zack.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Zack78 said:


> ohh god I am not starting a hand vs tool war. It is 1:58


It's not 1:58 it's 10:58


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

some of the tools did not see a mud even


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

J F said:


> OP = Original Poster, the thread starter, in this case, YOU.
> 
> The OP is Zack.


Good grief, I'm slow but eventually I catch on. Thanks for the clarification


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

J F said:


> OP = Original Poster, the thread starter, in this case, YOU.
> 
> The OP is Zack.


I dont think so I think Mr JLC is


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

JLC said:


> I had a sub-contractor do some drywall work for me. When I inspected the finished work, I found all kinds of areas that were not sanded properly and you can see the sanding marks (He used 180 grit to finish it). When I told him about it, he told me that if you stand back five (5) feet from the wall and see no "blemishes", the work is good to go and there should be no "bitc*ing" about the work.
> 
> Sorry, I inspect all work at a distance of 6 inches with a light. If not "perfect", the job is not done. I told him that this job is a "level 5", not a level 3. He said he never heard of that. I told him I never heard of the five foot rule. I guess the five foot rule has been around since the late 1960's!!
> 
> Is this guy for real??? Has anyone ever heard of the five foot rule or am I just a picky perfectionist???? :blink:




here it is


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Zack78 said:


> I dont think so I think Mr JLC is


:laughing: You're right, I'm sure. I never read the first post in the thread, Zack.

My bad.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

JLC said:


> First off - the contract did call for a level 5 finish. The price he charged for hanging and finishing 8 sheets (4x12) of drywall was over $1200.00 - the subcontractor does know what a level 5 finish is. He is just lazy about his work and trying to pull one over on me, as many subcontracotrs here seem to do. No, I didn't pay him in full, as I always pay the last 40% AFTER everything is perfect. The guy was using 180 grit for finish sanding - and a good drywall person KNOWS that that does not get it done.
> 
> All the work I have ever done for a customer gets a level 5 finish - no matter what!! My name is on the job. I want it to be perfect. If subcontractors can't do the work they are hired to do - they need to go work at McDonalds!!


jawohl herr kommandant
hi hitler

I am just kidding :laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Zack78 said:


> jawohl herr kommandant
> hi hitler
> 
> I am just kidding :laughing:


What does jawohl herr kommandant mean?


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

I do not now what happened between JLC and his sub All I know that is always 2 ends to the story and the truth is probably in the mid


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> What does jawohl herr kommandant mean?


"I I sir" but in german. I grew up on the border so I picked some german. I watched cartoons in german :thumbup:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Who am I? _Where_ am I?


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

J F said:


> Who am I? _Where_ am I?


Going back to the subject I think that if there is a problem on the job try to deal with it like a human first. You can always be upset next day.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> What does jawohl herr kommandant mean?


so you buying my auto tools or what?


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Zack78 said:


> Going back to the subject I think that if there is a problem on the job try to deal with it like a human first. You can always be upset next day.


but from the sound of it it was more talk than walk
am I talking to myself now??


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Zack78 said:


> but from the sound of it it was more talk than walk
> am I talking to myself now??


Do you have a gun and pump for sale?


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> Do you have a gun and pump for sale?


i have a bazooka brand new never used
angle head never used
10" 12" boxes used 3times
pump 3times


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> Do you have a gun and pump for sale?


roller never used 
nail spotter 1 time used


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Zack can you post a video of how to sand the mud without hitting the paper. Curious how feather the mud in without hitting the paper.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Matt, all of your clients want smooth walls? Here level 5 is smooth, using a velour roller so you dont leave roller texture on the wall. Most people dont want ultra smooth walls, they want texture. 


Or are you saying you skim the whole wall and then sand and texture? When using a sugar coat or a small, light texture we skim and sand too. Otherwise, lights and a straight edge to check for flatness, if its not flat, they can float the part I circle out. 

No reason to skim the whole wall imo, for Monterey texture


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I have had only one person require a "level5" and i think it was a 3/16th nap roller i used. There was no way a level 4 for would have been smooth enough to do that smooth a finish on them walls as i would have been able to see the paper texture through the paint. the majority of walls i paint are finished with 3/8" - 1/2" paint which is fine with a level 4 in my eyes even though i finish to a level 5. The most important thing to be no matter what level of fiinish is to remove sanding marks and imperfections that will show through the paint like over sanding, screw holes and gouges.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Matt, all of your clients want smooth walls? Here level 5 is smooth, using a velour roller so you dont leave roller texture on the wall. Most people dont want ultra smooth walls, they want texture.
> 
> Or are you saying you skim the whole wall and then sand and texture? When using a sugar coat or a small, light texture we skim and sand too. Otherwise, lights and a straight edge to check for flatness, if its not flat, they can float the part I circle out.
> 
> No reason to skim the whole wall imo, for Monterey texture


John, yes my clients want smooth walls. :laughing: Level 5 is a skim coat of mud and has nothing to do with the paint. What the painter does afterwards is up to the client.

Not sure what a Monterey texture is. We do not typically texture walls because it drives me nuts.

Most of the time I am matching existing finishes so we use whatever nap the exisiting walls have on them.

If left up too me for non adjoining work I level 5 then two coats of pva, then 2 coats of paint with 3/8 nap.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> John, yes my clients want smooth walls. :laughing: Level 5 is a skim coat of mud and has nothing to do with the paint. What the painter does afterwards is up to the client.
> 
> Not sure what a Monterey texture is. We do not typically texture walls because it drives me nuts.
> 
> ...


I know Level 5 is the drywall finish, did a lot of it in my commercial days. My point was, for the level 5 to show correctly, you need to use a velour or atleast small nap roller. Some spray, but almost impossible to touch up sprayed paint on level 5. 

Obviously everyone wants there walls to flat and smooth :laughing:

That's cool, but most people here want texture. Monterey is what 90% of people here do. I hate it, been seeing it my whole life. Its a heavy texture sprayed on the wall and dragged with a broad knife. Ill post a pic when I get to the site. One of my subs is having a hard time figuring out how to do his job, so i will be spending sunday morning giving him a game plan instead of siding my shop addition.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Zack can you post a video of how to sand the mud without hitting the paper. Curious how feather the mud in without hitting the paper.


BCConstruction - I feel sarkazm but that it's ok I will answer anyway.
For the secont coat I use a "red lid" and I lightly sand After it so my wall it is flat and makes my life easier. So my 3rd coat it is very light coat just to smooth it out. I don't use green lid for 2nd because shrink to much and sands much harder. After 3rd i use poll sander and I sand compund only yes. After that I follow with a fine sponge and sand transition you think about but I don't have to sand that transation like a hell because I did my job to the begin with. Again I am not against level 5 i already post that. But for me the argument "I will give a customer level 5 because I rough the paper when I am sanding level 4 is to me like I will give a custom a detail because when they come for oil change my mechanic make a mess inside the car. And The argument that I will not charge them for level 5 is like hmmm? who will than? somebody is payng for it because it's diffrent product.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

it is like my lumber yard "delivery is free" really ?? who pays for it ? are you guys getting your trucks and fuel for free? The drivers are volunteers? Ohhh you mean it is INCLUDED so I am paying for it or my customer is at the end anyway.


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