# How to support this huge limestone crown?



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

I was trimming out this job this summer and talked with the mason about how he was going to support this crown as its so front heavy that it would just fall out. Went back to the job today and got to see some progress.

He ended up having some bar bent and notching in a channel to receive the bar. 

How would you masons do this? Its not your everyday job. 

Just curious. Looking to learn. See pics below.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)




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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Personally,I would tell the architect / designer they need to provide a detail and specs. That is why they get paid the big bucks.


It is kind of like the old lawyer adage,"he who represents himself has a fool for a client". 


Why do anything that puts you in the cross hairs ? There is no percentage in it .


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

I'm sorry, but I'm not a very big fan of that stone :no:


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

fjn said:


> Personally,I would tell the architect / designer they need to provide a detail and specs. That is why they get paid the big bucks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've got nothing in it. Just wanted to get opinions for future reference. 

That was funny about having the architect figure it out. Lol


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

brickhook said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm not a very big fan of that stone :no:



Crap ton of money going into it. I hope they like it.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

That is a typical way of doing it. If the soffit wasn't on I'd prefer to install a bracket on the top rather than in the back. Threaded rod epoxied in the back and bolted through the wall would work as well....maybe a better method. Would give more room for adjustment The entabulature doesn't look arrow straight perhaps because the brackets don't have any room for movement


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I like the entabulature and the window surround, but the walling stone? If you don;t have anything nice to say and all that....


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## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

That is not how I would handle it. The angle in the bed joint is doing jack. The tendency to overturn could be handled easily several different ways. Basically, hardware in the head joint that is doweled to each piece and bolted back to the wall would work. Simple Simpson angles and tapcons would work fine if that was all you had. Most specs for exterior dimensional stone call for stainless though. In the old days they did most work like that with dowels and copper wire.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

artisanstone said:


> That is not how I would handle it. The angle in the bed joint is doing jack. The tendency to overturn could be handled easily several different ways. Basically, hardware in the head joint that is doweled to each piece and bolted back to the wall would work.


Agreed that the angle in the bed is useless. However...if the hardware is in the head it is the most susceptible to moisture, unless like you say SS was used.

In the old days it wouldn't be needed because the stone would be bedded into the wall far enough that no additional support would be required


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

is the angle there to prevent tipping?or something?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Which one?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

ah idk..the vertical one?:blink:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

There are 2 pieces of angle in that pic. One below the entabulature and one on top. The one on top is to stop the stone from tipping forward (it has a downward bend and the stone has a reglet to accept it) and the one below the tone is useless and redundant,,the bed joint is already doing everything it could do


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

http://wirebond.com/wp-content/products/stoneanchors/3059.jpg


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Tscarborough said:


> http://wirebond.com/wp-content/products/stoneanchors/3059.jpg






The accouterment you posted would work really,really good if this job had been thought out a whole lot better. For example,leave the soffit off until the stone was set. That way,the anchor you showed could be installed on top of the stone,one on each end as opposed to one at each head joint. Also,I'd be willing to bet the sheet rock is already hung,that gives the lag bolts the wonderful ability to sink into a bunch of crap O.S.B. :laughing: If the rock is not hung then at least solid blocking can be installed where needed. Top anchoring also has a fighting chance to hit the double top plate,depending on heights etc.


This detail should have been noted on the drawings. As I mentioned before,I'd dump it in the designers lap,let him go on record to sign off.We all can solve these design issues.......if we carry errors and omissions insurance.:laughing:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

artisanstone said:


> That is not how I would handle it. The angle in the bed joint is doing jack. .





I was thinking the exact same thing. I think the angles at the beds are just temporary. I think they place them to hold the stone close to the soffit panel and under pin them. I could be wrong though,hard to tell by a still photo.


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## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> http://wirebond.com/wp-content/products/stoneanchors/3059.jpg


http://wirebond.com/wp-content/products/stoneanchors/3053.jpg

This one would be better. Or, a split tail anchor. The head joint is pretty much the only location that will work, per the photo. What the masons were trying to do seems ridiculous to me. As noted by Dommas, it would be completely unadjustable.

FJN, I don't know how much residential work you do, but in my experience the architect would not be equipped to specify details like this. It's either done on site "******* engineering", or if the project is big enough you call in the specialty engineers. One job I bid had an engineering cost of $250,000 just to design the stone connection details and specify products.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

artisanstone said:


> FJN, I don't know how much reside... bad set costs the owner even more.:laughing:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Who cares about the stone, what about the tyvek on a high end project like that. ****** stupid.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

fjn said:


> Nothing,as long as it has a longer life expectancy than the material installed in front of it.


But you're missing the point. No one can see the tyvek so why would you spend money on that? You only spend money on visible stuff so you can impress people. Or if you're the builder so you can make more money off a clueless HO.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tyvek is made from polypropylene. While wet mortar splashes make it useless, I've never heard of it breaking down, except for when it's exposed to UV. Most plastics are frighteningly stable


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Housewrap is crap for veneer work. Probably doesn't need mortar net but it's a nice touch. Stones looks close to the wall, could transfer moisture eventually.

People seem to only build for what is deemed "long enough" but when it fails it will bring with it black mold and health problems potentially. 

It's not about hugging trees , and all that.

If there isn't a few hundid bucks in the budget for either a mesh or ice and water, I mean really, go do something else.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

JBM said:


> People seem to only build for what is deemed "long enough" but when it fails it will bring with it black mold and health problems potentially.
> 
> It's not about hugging trees , and all that.
> 
> If there isn't a few hundid bucks in the budget for either a mesh or ice and water, I mean really, go do something else.




:thumbsup::thumbsup:


As the old saying goes "there is never enough money to do it right but there is always enough money to do it twice".


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

JBM said:


> Who cares about the stone, what about the tyvek on a high end project like that. ****** stupid.


Never mind that. I'm trying to figure out that vented soffit?


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> Tyvek is made from polypropylene. While wet mortar splashes make it useless, I've never heard of it breaking down, except for when it's exposed to UV. Most plastics are frighteningly stable


Trust me, it breaks down. I've seen it many times behind bad stucco and wood siding.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

superseal said:


> Trust me, it breaks down. I've seen it many times behind bad stucco and wood siding.





:thumbsup::thumbsup:



Anyone who thinks house wrap is the answer to a maidens prayer is living in a dream world.


This article is about a 10 yr.old $ 600, 000 house that had tyvek house wrap on it and the wood under it turned to compost. The repair bill came to $ 80,000 and good old 15 lb. felt was the material of choice for the fix. It made it to the cover of JLC Sept. 2007.




http://www.jlconline.com/how-to/insulation/rain-screen-retrofit_o


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

my thought is that the top of the crown gets notched to receive the bracket.... the bottom bracket is is being used to push the crown up and hold into place...the reason being that the course below the crown has to be out in order for the crown to get past the lip in the soffit. Whether they leave the bottom brace or remove????...what's Tyvec?


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

I keed about the Tyvec question:laughing:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Big Shoe said:


> Never mind that. I'm trying to figure out that vented soffit?


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Big Shoe said:


> Never mind that. I'm trying to figure out that vented soffit?



I was wondering who would be the first to spot it. No problem there at all. It's got like an inch still exposed.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

superseal said:


> Trust me, it breaks down. I've seen it many times behind bad stucco and wood siding.


early stuff..who knows how long it was left exposed,ive seen the same thing with tar paper


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

While I certainly don't think that Tyvek is the be all end all I don't think it's particularly bad so long as it's installed properly

I did some work on my In laws last house and thy had used tar paper. the tar paper and the plywood beneath both had reasonable amounts of rot. Nothing is foolproof. Proper install is key to just about every products durability


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

fjn said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Since it was the tannins in the wood that degraded the Tyvek (I stand corrected, tannins and UV both degrade Tyvek, i'm sure there are a few other chemicals as well) I would think that if the strapping had been done originally that the issue wouldn't have occured even with Tyvek. Like I said before...I'm not a huge advocate of Tyvek but if installed properly and whatever siding is used, masonry, wood, vinyl etc is installed properly..it will perform well enough


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

not the tannins per say but the surfactant that was created when combined by moisture,this happens with many materials


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> While I certainly don't think that Tyvek is the be all end all I don't think it's particularly bad so long as it's installed properly
> 
> I did some work on my In laws last house and thy had used tar paper. the tar paper and the plywood beneath both had reasonable amounts of rot. Nothing is foolproof. Proper install is key to just about every products durability


I bricked my house in slow times replacing the tyvek when it stopped beading water. It went nearly 10 years before I did the back wall which was granite at walkout basement level. When finally getting around to it I once again had to put new tyvek on [always used a double layer] so while doing it I wanted to get it to lap around the corner a bit.....I have a 1-1/4'' air space but I couldnt get much a lap so I bent aluminum and nailed it through the toothing....In doing this I realized the tyvek behind the veneer was like newspaper....good thing I doubled it because it does degrade. I used 30 lb felt to finish. Carpenters have also said same behind cedar siding etc.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Why wouldn't you just demo the soffit and remove the fascia board until the masons were finished?

Drop in SS pins that lay in a milled slot at each end that pass through a stainless strap (the strap passes through the head joints to the pins) screwed off to the top plate, that is Hurricane/Tornado anchor tied to the roof trusses.

On the walls that parallel the truss layout, the carps would need to add enough tension blocking to counter act the couple of tons of stone pulling the walls out of plumb....

Some sort of anchor is needed at the bed joint in case the bond fails. Even just a shim between the stud and stone to stop inward movement at bottom.

Anchoring to a wooden wall that shrinks and grows, where are the CJs?

The anchor packages were well over 10% the cost of the precast stones the last few jobs I've done, but a big time saver over rolling your own.

If you can't weld, you're not to handy on most commercial stone veneer jobs. 

the Indiana Limestone Institute has a internet pamphlet on their product that shows some of the simpler methods of securing the veneer stones.


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