# Moving Basement Stairs



## FirmFoundations (Mar 21, 2016)

Good afternoon gentlemen,

My name is Josh and I operate a small handyman company serving the greater St. Louis area. I have been an active lurker on the forums for some time as I slowly get my business up and going, and I have learned a lot both from the forums as well as real world experience.
I've run into something a little different that I could use some input on.

I have a customer that has asked me to move a set of stairs for them across the basement. I have built stairs before, but never opened up a new stair well, built stairs and then closed off the old ones. I was upfront about that and the customer is okay with that.

I have some questions regarding the best way to layout and attach the stairs.

There is a steel beam that spans the basement 13' 8" from the exterior wall. Also at what will be the base of the stairs is where the electrical panel is located for the house, so the the customer would like the maximum "landing" length possible.

From concrete (carpet in the future) to the underside of the subfloor is about 97" with another 1 3/4" thickness of subfloor, old floor, and new laminate. 
So a total rise of 98.75 inches.

The minimum total run for the stairs that I can come up with is 120" with 10" treads and 7 5/8" risers.
This results in the stringers butted right up against the steel beam.

What would be the best way to mount the stringer?
Do I cut the joists from the opposing side back on the steel to allow for a 2x10 ledger board sitting on top of the steel? 
Do I drill or ramset through the steel to attach a kicker board to bring the center of the beam flush with the top and bottom flanges?
Do I need to anchor the stairs with strapping if I ramset a treated 2x4 as kick out prevention?

Also, for moving the floor joists (which have very little apparent load above them), do I simply double up on the outsides with a double girder across the opening above the foot of the stairs to mount the joists for the remaining 3.5' to the foundation wall (will be under a bedroom closet)?

Do I need to support anything with temporary jacks to cut the opening and joists out?
The only wall is a non-load-bearing curtain wall on the right hand side of what will be the stairs. There will be a corresponding wall below it for another bedroom with either a partial wall or no wall and railing on the opposite side.

Thanks in advance!


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

You got me a little confused. Are the joists sitting on top of the steel beam? If so, why would you have trouble attaching there?


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I would pack out the steel then use hangers for the stringers. I would also definitely Ramset a treated cleat to prevent sliding.

I dont know how big your landing ended up without the floor plan but our rehab code allows a 9" tread I believe so depending on what yours is even a 9.5" tread may help your landing situation.

Yes you do double the headers and trimmers of the framing. If your new stairs run in the same direction as the current ones mimic the construction details. Parallel stairs with joists and no wall above wont need any major temporary support. Your only talking about two joists and the flooring will help it. A simple 2x prop on each end should be fine. If your opening is going across perpendicular build a wall under the remaining floor side first.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

I have a hard time picturing what you said. If you have photographs that would help. I doubt ramsetting to the steel would be adequate. 

Are you offering a design contract for these clients? Do you plan on using an architect and engineer? Building permits?


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## dutchroots2 (Sep 20, 2016)

If you want to get fancy I suppose you could try to cut the stringers to fit back into the I beam, so they would be carried by the bottom flange.


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## FirmFoundations (Mar 21, 2016)

Sorry about the delayed response. 
I do have pictures, but it took some digging around to figure out to put the pictures up.

I think I've figured out what I'm going to do, so I'll post both the pictures of the basement and also the pictures of the sketches that I've done for the project.

In answer to some of the questions:
@Warren:
Yes, the joists are sitting on top of the steel beam, one of the main questions was how best to attach the header for stair stringers to the ends of the 2x10 joists that are terminating over the steel beam in such a way so as ensure structural integrity.

@Tom_M:
Is there a specific type of hanger that you would recommend?
The more I have thought about it, I'm inclined to pack out the steel with ripped down 2x8 and then face that with a 2x10 below the 2x10 mounted to the ends of the terminating joists with LedgerLOK'd blocks between each that transfer the weight to the steel.
Then use a 18-24" hanger strap on the end of the stringers for that load and then just cover it the upper exposed straps with a 1x8 riser board.
Does that make sense? 

@KenMacMoragh
Yes, I had intended to put up some pictures sooner.
No, I am not offering a design contract. The customer is a friend that has purchased this as project house to remodel and has pulled all the necessary permits, etc.
He has already had an engineer out for a couple of other issues and doesn't really want to have him come out again to answer what is likely a straightforward framing question for someone with more experience.


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## FirmFoundations (Mar 21, 2016)

Attached are a couple of the pictures of the basement.


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## FirmFoundations (Mar 21, 2016)

Some sketches that I drew up to show what I'm talking about.
Do you see any issues with the proposed design?
Note that one of the drawing shows the use of an actual stringer hanger, and one shows the use of straps, the one with the straps is the route I think I'm going to take.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

FirmFoundations said:


> @KenMacMoragh
> He has already had an engineer out for a couple of other issues and doesn't really want to have him come out again to answer what is likely a straightforward framing question for someone with more experience.


Whenever someone says that, you really need to be careful. They are putting the liability on your shoulders. You might tell him this:

"Hey John (whatever your friends name is who pulled the permits) the problem with that is whenever you have a design that's lacking detail, it's possible when the inspector comes out, he'll say this is an RFI requirement (Request For Information). I need an engineer to come out and stamp this approved, this method that you used. 

Then I could go ahead and do that, engineer can come out, analyze it, draw up a set of prints and stamp them. Then he'll send me a bill, could be $2,000. And what's worse is he could draw up something different than what I did. He might include studs attached to that steel beam. Which in case you're unaware, studs in steel language means a bolt, not a 2x4. The engineer could write studs welded on with special inspection required. Then I'd have to rip apart everything I did and start over. That could be another $2,000 of labor. At that point, who's responsible? You could say well Josh that wasn't in your bid, you have to pay for it. And then I have to take it as a loss. That's what could happen when I have a set of prints that's missing some detail. So I like to arrange it so it doesn't happen."

Basically they are being too cheap to come up with an accurate set of plans. So they want to put the liability on you to save a few bucks. What would it matter to them? liability is on you, right? 

I've seen so many bad sets of plans, no dimensions, missing details, looks like it was done on an Etch a Sketch, not so much on CAD. Sometimes I have to stop them before continuing on with a proposal. Framing remodels can be complex, in my experience most architects can't do it. They won't do a sufficient job of it. I might refer them to an architect who I know can do it. I do know a few who can design a framing remodel and include everything in there. To the point where I don't have to worry so much about liability or RFI requirements thrown in my face. I don't know this architect but from what you're saying, it sounds like he sucks, which makes it a high risk job for you. I'd question your friends attitude too when you said he doesn't want the engineer to come out again. Does he care about your money? Or does he just not understand what the risks are for you?

That's why I would explain to him what's going on, and if he still fought me over it I'd say "You have to find someone else" and leave. You might be able to bring those sketches you made to the building department and get the verbal o.k. But if they say no then you've wasted a lot of your valuable time on someone too cheap to come up with an adequate set of prints. I would get the engineer to come out and get a verbal approval from the building department that a stamped revision is not necessary. But if you want to skip that and take the risks, that's up to you.

As far as framing methods, which was your original question. I would prefer a raised stair stringer instead of a dropped one. That way you could anchor your stair stringers to the wood joist frame instead of trying to hang it from that steel beam. Put in a couple 2x10 header joists, or whatever those are, add joist hangers to each stringer, the kind that pivots on the bottom, and you'll have your connection. Even then, an inspector might wonder if it needs studs welded on with a sill on that steel beam and say "I need an RFI pal". So I wouldn't do it without a proper design.


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

Housed, routed stringers would simplify that situation dramatically. With them, you simply shim & nail to stair opening joist. 

That's pretty much all I've seen in this town in the past 50 years.
Joe


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