# Is this botched tile job within "industry standard"?



## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

The tile contractor is stating that most of his work is within "industry standards". He loves to use that term. Nothing about it looks to be up to anything more than garbage standards to me. Just wanted a few opinions. Also, he's threatening a lien if not paid.

It's a guy I've used for a long time, and he's always been dead on perfect. Apparently, he subbed this to a crew who I've never seen before, and it turned out pretty bad I think. I know it's white tile and black grout, but I say it sucks. He's willing to do some "fixing", where he takes out a 2-3 tiles along the visible joint lines and lays them back. It doesn't make it "right", but it does minimize the problems. Not sure what I want to do. 

Any thoughts? Is this in any way acceptable on any level? He's saying he will file a lien if we don't pay him, but it's going to cost more than we owe him to fix it correctly, and I don't really want to pay him anything. I say he'll be lucky if we don't sue him for the full cost of replacing plus our time and trouble.


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

Couple more.


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## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

That is Butt-Ugly...

Is it in a commercial kitchen? In residential no way, but on a commercial job, it is likely not a problem. 

I would probe around the grout lines where the lines are thin, sanded grout might not be able to get full penetration in those tight lines.

Did he inform you of his decision to use a sub? is that allowed in your contract? You will need a lein release from both the tile guy and his sub upon payment.


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

Don't industry standards dictate that joints must be uniform?


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

you really had to ask if this is a good job?


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

brunothedog said:


> you really had to ask if this is a good job?


No. I think it sucks. I just wanted to know how good I feel about not paying him for it.


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

That's horrible work . Tell him to fix whole job or he will see your lawyer . Give him chance so if you go to court you get more of leg up .


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

What does contract state .


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

asevereid said:


> Don't industry standards dictate that joints must be uniform?


That's my thought. It is in a light commercial job, and we mostly do residential. Didn't know if commercial was any different.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

To most tile guys that would suck... but I can't tell you how many sucky tile jobs I've seen in commercial... so if it's commercial, he could go around taking picks at different places and argue "industry standard" as there is no licensing standard...


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## Patsfanindallas (Aug 27, 2013)

Does an attorney need to be involved in order to get a lien removed. By that I mean, anyone can go file a lien. What is the process for saying hey, look at the pictures of this garbage work he's filing a lien for.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

BTW, if his previous work was great, that's your standard of expectation, no?... :whistling

Show him some pics of his previous work and tell him, THIS is your expectation...


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

The only time I ever hear the term "industry standard" in this business is when people are trying to explain away garbage work. Industry standards are for the manufacturing industry. Workmanlike manner may have been the term he was looking for and that job certainly wasn't performed in a workmanlike manner.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Let him try and fix it. Keep things well documented.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Not saying accept the work, tho......

Lot's of lee way in commercial. Customer is good with it, you can be good with it... If It's "back of house" type work, things do slide a little more function before beauty. 


Customer not happy, string up the tile guy- till it's done right.


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## Pete N (Dec 29, 2013)

He needs to fix it. He can get it 80% better in a day or two. He won't like it, but if you have used him before, deep down he knows it is not acceptable to you. Even if you offer to work with him to get it to a point were it will fly. In the end it is "fudge able".... without everybody lawyering up. He really should own up to it though.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Don't ever lower your standards even if the client says nothing. You don't want your name attached to that tile job, you already know that..

Given he has a great track record with you, I would start with being empathetic to his situation. It sucks to be him right now. Showing some compassion may get him headed in the right direction. 

At the same time I would be crystal clear about how it should look after his repair. He knows he needs to fix it but he will need the guidelines that will be acceptable. 

Mediators and lawyers can stay out of it given you have a good history. You need to find the right things that get him turned around. 

It always amazes me that's when things go bad there are guys that want to run from it. It can be such a great opportunity to show your true colors and solidify a relationship if you just get with the program and do the right thing. Short sighted people just can't see that far, I guess.


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

Who suggested using that tile..?


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

It looks like . That being said he's a tile guy and knows that. He ain't happy either, it sucks not paying someone but just express what you have to pay to have it right and you'd rather work with him to make it right. 

If you guys have a relationship than there is no reason to get lawyers involved, however, he doesn't need to know that. Don't let him get away with that kind of work, for him and all your other subs to know that you know.

I can see the separate sheets on my phone. He's probably embarrassed and just trying to justify something he's kicking himself in the ass for already and doesn't want the extra criticism. Be courteous and stern, but get it fixed.


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## Frank Castle (Dec 27, 2011)

Pearce Services said:


> That is Butt-Ugly...


:laughing:

That's just Fugly!


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

I'd like to buy a bag of whatever it was he was smokin' when he laid that...


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

hone:


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## mski (Apr 4, 2013)

KAP said:


> BTW, if his previous work was great, that's your standard of expectation, no?... :whistling
> 
> Show him some pics of his previous work and tell him, THIS is your expectation...


IMO this is the answer. 
You have been using this guy for a long time, he does great work, now he subs a job, it turns out ****ty and he is busting your balls with a lien because your expectations are of his previous work and you wont pay.

Show him pics and see what he says. Maybe he has come to the point where the almighty dollar is no more important the the quality of the work.
If thats the case do what you have to do and scratch him off your sub list.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

You guys!.....It's a kitchen ! those are drain holes!


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## Patsfanindallas (Aug 27, 2013)

blacktop said:


> You guys!.....It's a kitchen ! those are drain holes!


Haha, that took me a second.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

It stinks and he knows it, but he's probably within his legal rights filing a lien - it's functional, back of the house, and standards for that sort of work are low; not your standards, but industry standards.

I'd settle with the sub, and let the customer choose between the settled price or to have the work improved to your standard, at the original price. If it's going to cost you more to do the work than the settlement, then consider sweetening the settlement a little.

It's not ideal, but as long as it's an isolated thing and it's only in the back of the house, most commercial customers are going to understand that stuff happens, they'll understand that you're not happy about it, and they'll respect you for offering them a choice of equitable solutions.

You're probably going to eat some costs here, but that's fair. You're the general, so you bear some of the responsibility for it.

It's easy for me to suggest this, or for other people to tell you to threaten lawyers, but we don't know the details, and we're not in your shoes. How much money is involved?


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

CarpenterSFO said:


> You're probably going to eat some costs here, but that's fair. You're the general, so you bear ALL of the responsibility for it.


fixed it for you.
The contractor bears All the responsibility.
Thats a ****ty job, you'll take it up the azz this time. Tell the sub to stick his lean in the same place, 
I'd sue, 
Your sub gives hacks a good name, and licensed contractors a bad name.

That would not be accepted in a barn where we work.

Now I know why they want us to go to Cali.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

I can't see any other way to fix that other than total tear out and start over. 

No one else has mentioned that.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

For one thing, the tiles should be laid in subway style, - - with the straight lines of the pattern running 'across' the visual . . .


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

That looks like crap, the black dots aren't even spaced uniformly. Was the subfloor level? That might account for some of the spacing issues. But I would think it all needs to come out and be redone.


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## pdmig (Nov 21, 2010)

Every body always talks about "industry standard". Have him show you the written standard that he is speaking about. A lot of people also talk about "standard practice". I take this to mean justification for cutting corners by hacks. I like to ask them to show me a written standard, even something from JLC or Fine Homebuilding or something...

Lots of contractors do not even meet the " it says how to do it on the back of the bag" standard. In their defense, some things cannot be installed according to the instructions.

In the millwork business we use the AWI standards. They have economy, custom and premium levels all described for what each means. It is for woodworking, trim, millwork, stairs, etc.. For instance, when installing trim...if it is pre finished, the installer fills the holes, if it is paint grade, the painter fills the holes. If you are the installer and the painter, you fill the holes.

I would think that for this back room tile job, function is more important than looks. I would be more concerned with the small joints, not the big ugly wide ones. How can you get the grout all the way in? It will be a weak spot later.

How did it get that far without noticing? Did you check on the installers during the job? There can be a lot going on so sometimes that stuff gets by, but that is why , hopefully, you make the big bucks to be a GC.


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

tgeb said:


> That looks like crap, the black dots aren't even spaced uniformly. Was the subfloor level? That might account for some of the spacing issues. But I would think it all needs to come out and be redone.


The subfloor was fairly level, although it wasn't perfect. The house was built in1920, so we aren't working on tgi's and advantech here.... 

The black dots were supposed to be random, and actually were precisely placed by the owners for "just the right amount of randomness". The owners are very happy with the black dots. 

And yes, my thought is that it would need to come out and be re-done to actually be right. However, that's not going to happen, and we're just going to have to make the best of what we have.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

brunothedog said:


> fixed it for you.
> The contractor bears All the responsibility.
> ...


Sure, the general is ultimately fully responsible.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

brunothedog said:


> ...
> Now I know why they want us to go to Cali.


They want you to come to California to tile small restaurant kitchens? OK, I suppose you have to start somewhere.

Edit: And barns, I guess.


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## Patsfanindallas (Aug 27, 2013)

He has agreed to fix all areas that are outside of "industry standards", which he says is anything that is off more than a 1/16 either way from the 1/8" grout line. In other words, if the 3/16 or bigger, he fixes it. If its 1/16 or smaller, he fixes it. He just wants to put this behind him. The problem is, he made about a 15k mistake, and even though he's a good guy, he's not going to admit to how terrible the job is because there's no way he's going to eat that much money. By the way, it's not really "back of the house". It's an open bar area, and 2 bathrooms.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

If the joint variance is a result of an uneven floor it is acceptable. If the joint variance is the result of sloppy installation it probably isn't acceptable. 

"Industry Standard" in this case is a canard, there is none. 

There is no standard because tiles themselves are not standard. Some are manufactured with extremely tight tolerances, others are manufactured with variances as much as 3/16". The tile sheets might add to the problem. Were the sheets consistent enough that this would not happen without sloppy installation?


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

After an initial glance I recalled some tile I laid last year that looked exactly the same. It was a vicious PITA. The mats were not at all uniform or square. The backing was cheap and many rows were set adhered poorly and out of line. It took me a solid day with a sharp knife and a grout float to set it correctly. I would've been better off dropping each tile individually. 

I felt bad for this guy who previously had done good work.

Then......I went back and looked at the pics closer. IMO, it is clear that the actual mats are fine. The joints are sloppy at the seams/interlock due mainly to poor installation. 

If the tile were bad I would expect to see inconsistencies in the field as well as the mat seams...I didn't. I did see terribly inconsistent joint widths at the seams and obvious "pulls" where rows were distorted by the installer.

"Industry standard"? Light commercial? Whateva....it's just sloppy work. The pic of the main run is the most obvious evidence. You can see every individual mat.....straight Bobo (clown-like).


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> After an initial glance I recalled some tile I laid last year that looked exactly the same. It was a vicious PITA. The mats were not at all uniform or square. The backing was cheap and many rows were set adhered poorly and out of line. It took me a solid day with a sharp knife and a grout float to set it correctly. I would've been better off dropping each tile individually.
> 
> I felt bad for this guy who previously had done good work.
> 
> ...


This was my initial assessment as well. If you haven't come across mat set tile yet that isn't a pita to work with, you just haven't been setting tile that long. Especially octagon and dot and pinwheel patterns. 

That being said it's the installers responsibility to bring it to the GC/sub/supplier's attention and either get replacement tile or compensation to fix it. 

No way in hell I leave a job looking like that with my name on it. $15K is a drop in the bucket compared to the jobs lost due to sh!t work like that... Especially in commercial work.


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## ee3 (Feb 10, 2006)

Just wondering how many of you guys talking about the industry standards have them? ANSI books? TCNA handbooks?
Members of the NTCA or TCAA ?


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## Patsfanindallas (Aug 27, 2013)

ee3 said:


> Just wondering how many of you guys talking about the industry standards have them? ANSI books? TCNA handbooks? Members of the NTCA or TCAA ?


great question. Is there any kind of industry standards? Is a 1/16 of an inch an acceptable variance on an 1/8 inch grout line as far as any groups standards?


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

I just laid a hex floor. About 6,000 tiles on mats. I have maybe 20 tiles to replace because of being poorly placed. Frankly, it doesn't bug me. I'll replace the 1/3 of 1% of all the tiles I installed. Some of those tiles are factory defects-tiles miscut, placed with gaps etc. You don't always notice them until they're set.

Your job does have issues. Don't misunderstand. I agree. I just think there needs to be some compromise. Who supplied the tile?Are all the tile sheets perfect? I doubt it. Floors perfect? I doubt it again. Did the installer make errors? yep. But give him a chance to fix them. 

The lawyer up routine is more costly for everyone so try to work it out.


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## ee3 (Feb 10, 2006)

How long has this been installed? Im not to sure i would eat at this place ,looks filthy for a newer install.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

KAP said:


> Having subs is about relationships... It all depends on how this sub addresses it... no need to burn a bridge that doesn't need to be burned..:thumbsup:
> 
> Personally, IMHO, the sub needs the money and that's all he's thinking about short-term like most. Being that he has an established relationship with him, I would have a check on hand for the full amount and offer to give him the check for the full amount as soon as he fixes it after inspection and client sign-off. So the sooner he makes him a priority and fixes it, the quicker he gets paid...


 :thumbsup:

If he has no money paid out then some portion of the money is due. The rest upon repair of agreed on areas.


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## njremodeler (Dec 22, 2013)

ClaytonR said:


> The tile contractor is stating that most of his work is within "industry standards". He loves to use that term. Nothing about it looks to be up to anything more than garbage standards to me. Just wanted a few opinions. Also, he's threatening a lien if not paid.
> 
> It's a guy I've used for a long time, and he's always been dead on perfect. Apparently, he subbed this to a crew who I've never seen before, and it turned out pretty bad I think. I know it's white tile and black grout, but I say it sucks. He's willing to do some "fixing", where he takes out a 2-3 tiles along the visible joint lines and lays them back. It doesn't make it "right", but it does minimize the problems. Not sure what I want to do.
> 
> Any thoughts? Is this in any way acceptable on any level? He's saying he will file a lien if we don't pay him, but it's going to cost more than we owe him to fix it correctly, and I don't really want to pay him anything. I say he'll be lucky if we don't sue him for the full cost of replacing plus our time and trouble.


OK. how is the subfloor ? If the subfloor is really solid...you can get a very very strong thinset and just go over it .
It is a poor outcome job, for both of you .having done that type off tile a million times , I know that tile pattern it is not easy to in.stall the manufacturer is at fault to. None off the sheets comes in perfect condition. An installer has to have a lot off patience with the tile(cut and adjust all the time)
Industry practice it is not. the grout joint supposed to be the same as the grout joint between the tiles laid and glued from the factory. Meaning,, you can not put 1/8 of grout joint when you already have a 1/16.
the black grout does not help. Why the appliances on top off a faulty floor. That makes it that you did not care about the condition of the floor.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

ee3 said:


> How long has this been installed? Im not to sure i would eat at this place ,looks filthy for a newer install.


It might have been clean until the appliances were installed and everyone that had a punch list dragged their boots across the floor. I've seen my nice tile work get trashed by other trades even when covered. 

I bet they have a final cleaning before they open.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Patsfanindallas said:


> In all seriousness though, getting the attorney involved would not be worth 15k. The guy said he's going to come fix the bad spots. We'll draw up an agreement before hand, so everyone knows what to expect. The proper thing to do would be to tear out out and redo, but since he'll file a lien if we don't pay, and I'm pretty sure we don't want the owners to have to deal with that, and I'm 100% sure the tile guy won't eat that much, this seams to be the best option.
> 
> But after he does his work, and we pay him, and him gives us an invoice paid in full, I'm going to lay into him like a pittbull. He WILL understand how he did a horrible job, didnt make it right, and will never work for us again. Until I get the paid in full invoice, I'm all gum drops and roses.


How long have you been a gc? You got this all ass fing backwards. Liens dont mean squat 90% of the time. Did the sub do any legwork to perfect the lien? Notify mortgagors,file notices with appropriate parties? You still havent even mentioned your contract or any of its provisions which leads me to believe there proly isnt one. 

The way its supposed to work is no work no money. Dont like the work, no money till its right. Terms to this effect and the standards to which work will be held should be in your contract. If he doesnt want to play by your rules then when you get served you think about negotiating a go away payment, until then he can wish in one hand....

What youre proposing is to cut off your own balls and then complain about not having a pair to the guy you asked to pass you the knife.


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## njremodeler (Dec 22, 2013)

onmywayup said:


> I've only been doing this work for a few years, but this is the first time that I've come across these ideas of "backroom" standards or lower standards for commercial kitchens, etc. I guess I'm going to start paying more attention to tile in out-of-the-way places and see what I can see.
> 
> This is just sloppy work man. It's ugly, he's embarrassed, and I would have a hard time leaving that work in place. I don't understand how it can be "fixed" without a full tear-out.
> 
> When he pops up one mat to move it over and shrink the grout line, won't be just be splitting the difference and still opening up the line on the opposite side of the tile too much? 'Ole boy needs to utilize a little less weed before work, and a little bit more plastic tile spacers.


Commercial means cheaper to install. the quality does not have to be all there. It is the fault of the GC and the Owners. Just because it is commercial they wanted it faster and cheaper. 
that's not to say this is the case in this post.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

I'm getting confused.... are ClaytonR and Patsfanindallas one in the same?


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

The old timers did mosaics quite well on a lot of local work I rip out here, but I'm never really satisfied when I see modern day installations that's for sure. 

Not many people using it on entire floors anymore as it notoriously painstaking even for a perfectionist to get it right.

I does look bad however and I would agree, I don't like the way it looks and something should be done.

Mosaics need to be done right the first time around proper time allotment assigned to make this happen. 

And as far as black grout in a white matrix...ain't for the faint at heart that's for sure. Every stinking imperfection shows and even more so when you start flinging grout.

Here's my last black grout white/black mosaic job I did, thankfully at my own house...took all day to get that little floor done to my satisfaction as the tiles were already crooked on the sheets  

Don't look too hard, you might see a few :whistling

Went on to torture myself a little further with the tub walls using old style 4x4 and a glass mosaic band...WTF was I thinking :laughing:


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## njremodeler (Dec 22, 2013)

superseal said:


> The old timers did mosaics quite well on a lot of local work I rip out here, but I'm never really satisfied when I see modern day installations that's for sure.
> 
> Not many people using it on entire floors anymore as it notoriously painstaking even for a perfectionist to get it right.
> 
> ...


looks good . you right on the 4X4 . a different tile would have done it. for the mosaic if they pay I ll do them all day long


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## ee3 (Feb 10, 2006)

Thanks for asking that KAP. I was tring to figure that out to.


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## Patsfanindallas (Aug 27, 2013)

KAP said:


> I'm getting confused.... are ClaytonR and Patsfanindallas one in the same?


Clayton and I are partners.


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

Patsfanindallas said:


> Clayton and I are partners.


Business partners, that is... 

Let's be very clear.


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## Patsfanindallas (Aug 27, 2013)

Metro M & L said:


> How long have you been a gc? You got this all ass fing backwards. Liens dont mean squat 90% of the time. Did the sub do any legwork to perfect the lien? Notify mortgagors,file notices with appropriate parties? You still havent even mentioned your contract or any of its provisions which leads me to believe there proly isnt one. The way its supposed to work is no work no money. Dont like the work, no money till its right. Terms to this effect and the standards to which work will be held should be in your contract. If he doesnt want to play by your rules then when you get served you think about negotiating a go away payment, until then he can wish in one hand.... What youre proposing is to cut off your own balls and then complain about not having a pair to the guy you asked to pass you the knife.


how long have you been a douche? The sub does very high volume, and certainly has the money and means to file lien and perfect it. Not something I care to deal with. If you had read the posts, you would have seen that we said his work has always been perfect, for years. The conundrum was wether or not to work something out, or take a legal route.


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## Patsfanindallas (Aug 27, 2013)

ClaytonR said:


> Business partners, that is... Let's be very clear.


that hurts sweety.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Redliz? Sweety....

Speaking of which where has dwb been?


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Patsfanindallas said:


> how long have you been a douche? The sub does very high volume, and certainly has the money and means to file lien and perfect it. Not something I care to deal with. If you had read the posts, you would have seen that we said his work has always been perfect, for years. The conundrum was wether or not to work something out, or take a legal route.


Yeah it was a douchY post. But youve got to get back in control; thats your job as gc.

Clearly youre scared of this sub and his money. Find the leverage. You know like uploading a you tube video of his work.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Not to be a superdouche....

And completely understanding the desire to avoid legal quarrels.....

if one of my subs threw up work like that, *and his response was to threaten a lein*..........

I would ask for a copy, excuse myself for a moment, return, and hand him back the pages that had I just used to wipe my ass.

Matter of principle.


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## ee3 (Feb 10, 2006)

Alright already ,per ANSI a 108.10 -installation of grout in tile work 5.3.4 ---all grout joints Shall be uniformly finished.
That is right out of the 2013 ANSI A108 handbook (The American National standard specifications for the installation of ceramic tile ) those would be the very same standards he is claiming installation meets.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

LOL, guys can quote TCNA lines all day and talk about suing and liens, but it rarely gets that far. I know how I would handle it. We know it's a poorly done job. If the client is accepting it, I would pay the loser and never call him again. If the client isn't going for it, have your attorney send him a letter if after you offer to let him fix it all, he refuses. 
If he files a lien, let him. Then you call out inspector for a report, and get ready to bang it out in court. Sue his ass for the tear out, and replacement, and any loss of business etc etc. $$$


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