# Concrete Contractor - looking to learn excavation



## MSUDrew (Dec 2, 2011)

I work for a commercial concrete contractor that does not self perform excavation. We are looking to expand our operations to include excavation/ backfill to support our concrete operations . I am looking for some advice or recommendations for estimating, books, methods, approaches, or just general comments on your experiences and knowledge bank that would help us gain traction. We plan to start small and work up. We currently own some small equipment and a backhoe, but would likely rent excavator and loader as needed until we could become proficient.


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## JDEERE (Feb 3, 2015)

MSUDrew said:


> We plan to start small and work up. We currently own some small equipment and a backhoe, but would likely rent excavator and loader as needed until we could become proficient.


Starting small is a good thought to begin. As a concrete contractor you already have a leg up on someone starting out totally green. You know grades, you can read plans, you are proficient with a laser and you certainly know how important it is to produce quality (on-grade) work. I would suggest you'll need the following at a minimum:
1. grade laser
2. excavator-size depending on the work you'll do.
3. fairly heavy reversible compactor
4. dump truck or the availability to hire one as needed.
5. Track loader or skid-steer-probably don't need a wheel loader at this point.

The only down side I see is the site guys that recommend you for concrete will almost certainly not in the future. 
Good Luck!


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

MSUDrew said:


> I work for a commercial concrete contractor that does not self perform excavation. We are looking to expand our operations to include excavation/ backfill to support our concrete operations . I am looking for some advice or recommendations for estimating, books, methods, approaches, or just general comments on your experiences and knowledge bank that would help us gain traction. We plan to start small and work up. We currently own some small equipment and a backhoe, but would likely rent excavator and loader as needed until we could become proficient.


All I can say is BE CAREFUL.....

What you need to know can't be book learned.

You can end up with an expensive mess very quickly.


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## MSUDrew (Dec 2, 2011)

Thank for the info.... I agree with what your saying.... We certainly could upset some of our current excavation partners, but the choice to branch out was based on the crazy high quotes we are getting from them to support our concrete efforts, especially on small jobs.


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## mattg2448 (Jan 26, 2015)

Depending on the size jobs you're doing, I would recommend a mini excavator or small mid sized one, a track loader and possibly a small dozer, 450 deere of d3 cat, long undecarriage. Probably a compactor of some sort too, either a roller on the track loader or a plate compactor on the excavator. Seeing that you have a backhoe, I'm not sure how good of an investment a track loader would be, but think it over. 

Learn swell and compaction rates for each material (each is different, moisture must be different, ect) how to run the equipment, get your hourly rates down pat, and try to possibly go T&M for the first couple jobs. Definitely line up trucking, in your line of work it might be beneficial to own your own rig. (For what I'm currently doing its not worth it, local dealer ships mobilize so cheap and have a deal with local trucking company to haul material). And then keep track of EVERYTHING! That way you know what you can do in what time. Also look into some different additional items on the quote if you see a need (dewatering, rock, undercuts, ect)

I'm sure I'm missing a ton, but that's a good start.


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## mattg2448 (Jan 26, 2015)

MSUDrew said:


> Thank for the info.... I agree with what your saying.... We certainly could upset some of our current excavation partners, but the choice to branch out was based on the crazy high quotes we are getting from them to support our concrete efforts, especially on small jobs.


Remember excavating is high risk and cost a lot of money!


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

MSUDrew said:


> Thank for the info.... I agree with what your saying.... We certainly could upset some of our current excavation partners, *but the choice to branch out was based on the crazy high quotes we are getting from them to support our concrete efforts, especially on small jobs.*


You may think these are "crazy high quotes" until you  start paying the overhead involved in a small excavation contract. 

My advice would be to subcontract the excavation if you need to, and tack on a reasonable percentage for you handling the project and everyone makes a few bucks.

Just my opinion....


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

I'd sell the backhoe and set up with the following:

1. Mid 90's 5 yard dump. I like my GMC topkick with the Cat 3116 and Allison. 10-15k
2. 50 series mini excavator. Look for a good used one with 1,000ish hours. 30-40k
3. Cheap Bobcat or Skip Loader (depends on how large of areas you think you will be working in). 10-20k.
4. Tag Trailer large enough to haul both machines at the same time. 5-10k.


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## Moxley-Kidwell (Jan 28, 2011)

tgeb said:


> You may think these are "crazy high quotes" until you  start paying the overhead involved in a small excavation contract.
> 
> My advice would be to subcontract the excavation if you need to, and tack on a reasonable percentage for you handling the project and everyone makes a few bucks.
> 
> Just my opinion....


Very true!! On smaller jobs your unit pricing needs to go way up to make a buck. I've tried to run the numbers hundreds of times and everyone always is sticker shocked at the end result. There is no point in even mobilizing unless you can turn a profit. On the other hand there always semms to be a guy that wants to work for peanuts, sounds like you haven't found them.

What size grading jobs are you trying to do? Unless you are talking grading for large tilt ups or thousands of yards of concrete get a track skid steer 8000-10000# and a roller. That should do most of the small to mid size jobs. Find a single/tandem axle dump truck and a decent trailer.


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## JDavis21835 (Feb 27, 2009)

MSUDrew said:


> Thank for the info.... I agree with what your saying.... We certainly could upset some of our current excavation partners, but the choice to branch out was based on the crazy high quotes we are getting from them to support our concrete efforts, especially on small jobs.


Give us some details on this. Crazy high quotes on small jobs. What do the small jobs consist of though? Remember, a machine doesn't just magically show up on the job. Equipment mobilization to a site that is in phases will have higher transport costs, and no excavation contractor can afford to eat that. 

What is the scope of work? If its just dig a hole, thats one thing. But if we are talking dig a small hole, on a tight site, full of utilities, with export of soils, we have some major costs there. The labor for finding the utilities, mind you there is cost with insurance if we damage said utilities. Now what about backfill? If there was no room to stockpile, or the soil on site was not suitable we have costs of importing soil. What are the compaction specifications like? What time of year is it? Frost protection and making compaction in below freezing temperatures, or worse, slightly above freezing temperatures where its easy to end up with mud. 

Excavation is not as easy as seems. You have painted a pretty broad picture here. Lets paint some trees and get into the details


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

Have you considered the cost of your XCU coverage, mobilization costs, what you're going to do with your crew while you're digging? 

Local concrete contractors have made the investment, get real busy. ..end up subbing the ex. out and that equipment became expensive lawn ornaments. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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