# Shower diagnosis help



## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Find someone with a FLIR. They can shoot the wall and the temp change will show the path of the water.

If it is a Schulter drain their dovetail trademark symbol will be on the grate. 

What type of tile? If it is stone/marble without a water barrier behind it, they're screwed. Glazed ceramic or porcelain, you have a fighting chance with a good grout and tile sealing.

Tom

Tom


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Sounds like there are alot of showers to redo in this house. Id educate the client, make a case for protecting their investment, help them see if they can recoupe costs from the builder, then write up an estimate to do this properly...


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> If you can't do it, find someone reputable that can. It's not fair to caulk and walk on this one. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I knew they had this kind of issue that really needed to be fixed.


Dude...I would NEVER......EVER!

Hence the query.

And....there is noone. I live in a phucking desert. If he is decent, he is busy.

You really think it's beyond help?

I'm not so sure yet.

Sincere thanks for your advice though.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> DO NOT CAULK IT...CAULK IS NOT A SOLUTION. FIX IT!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"No clue?" Funny. Go do some research before you start spouting off like that. Btw, the Romans never caulked that joint and they have bathhouses that have held up for a couple thousand years.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> Find someone with a FLIR. They can shoot the wall and the temp change will show the path of the water.
> 
> If it is a Schulter drain their dovetail trademark symbol will be on the grate.
> 
> ...


FLIR?

Even just joint seepage? Wow! I'll try.

Pretty darn sure Schluter. I was 100% sure full Kerdi (probably cuz of the drain), just didn't double check today. Rushing...

Porcelain down....glazed up.

Thanks Tom.....greatly appreciated.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> "No clue?" Funny. Go do some research before you start spouting off like that. Btw, the Romans never caulked that joint and they have bathhouses that have held up for a couple thousand years.


Yep, no clue. Don't care what the Romans did, we don't build anything like they did so why would I institute something as stupid as grouting a plane change.

And I don't need to do research, that's the difference between me and you, I actually do it this for a living. Tiling is my specialty. I think you need to take your own advice, do some research, actually do it and back it up with a warranty and then spout off by telling someone to do it the right way.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Yep, no clue. Don't care what the Romans did, we don't build anything like they did so why would I institute something as stupid as grouting a plane change.
> 
> And I don't need to do research, that's the difference between me and you, I actually do it this for a living. Tiling is my specialty. I think you need to take your own advice, do some research, actually do it and back it up with a warranty and then spout off by telling someone to do it the right way.


Where do you suspect the water is coming from? Are you one of those guys that thinks water doesn't travel through the grout? Just wondering.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Sounds like there are alot of showers to redo in this house. Id educate the client, make a case for protecting their investment, help them see if they can recoupe costs from the builder, then write up an estimate to do this properly...



I've been running a tile systems workshop over there.....

I just need to be definitive before I advise them of redo, because they will do it on my word, and I want to be 100% right.

The builder is an acquaintance, decent guy, small town, father is big time realtor. This is still the south, and this NYC Yankee has a hard enough time with the "locals". He's probably already pissed cuz they are recommending me to anyone that will listen, and they already harassed him about the crappy showers (for grout touch-ups) to no avail.

I gotta live here.....and eat......THIS BLOWS!


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Dude...I would NEVER......EVER!
> 
> Hence the query.
> 
> ...


Yeah, anytime there is sitting water behind the tile it means that you have two issues.

1) water is getting behind the tile

2) the water is not draining properly once it gets there

Neither of them can be easily fixed, in my experience, without tear out.

The upside would be that the water might be coming from up stream and is trapped between the tile and the caulk. When you remove the caulk (seal), you allow a way for that trapped water to escape. Problem is if you have removed all the caulk and it is still seeping, the water has penetrated the tile and is not draining.

And never use any acrylic caulk in a wet area.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

There are no weep holes in a Schulter system. It is a water barrier system not a water in, water out system. 

Is the drain round or square?

What and where you describe, sounds more like a wall than pan problem. 

FLIR-Forward looking infrared, FLIR is a brand that has become the colloquialism for any brand and the process. The two people I know who specialize in the process use Fluke guns. 

If you ever have a roof leak you can't find, a good FLIR operator will find it.

Tom


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Where do you suspect the water is coming from? Are you one of those guys that thinks water doesn't travel through the grout? Just wondering.


Please read my posts.

1) Like I said tile and grout have perm ratings....if you don't know what a perm rating is, then like you suggested for me to do, go do some research.

2) Cementious grout, IMO, doesn't belong in any wet area. The perm rating is too high, IMO.

3) Without pictures, I believe that the grout has failed. It is probably cracked or missing in multiple areas or where the flow of water is directed.

And I don't "think" anything, I try to be educated, experienced and humble enough to learn new things. However, these are the basics.

I have been helped by the best and continue to hone my craft. I do not claim to know everything or be an expert at it all. I just know a few concrete DO's and DON'Ts.

I apologize for coming off a bit harsh, it's just pretty darn important that the wrong information is not spread.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Yeah, anytime there is sitting water behind the tile it means that you have two issues.
> 
> 1) water is getting behind the tile
> 
> ...


Answer to #1: maybe from permeable grout??
Answer to #2: maybe from impermeable caulk??

Ever wonder why tub caulk gets mold/mildew?? Same principle.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Yeah, anytime there is sitting water behind the tile it means that you have two issues.
> 
> 1) water is getting behind the tile
> 
> ...




Never. I use urethane grout exclusively these days (sensei Angus)....so I don't sweat it.

But this ain't mine.

I agree 1&2.

Logically then, if I can stop the water from entering from the most likely point (grout joints) with a good sealer, I can stop the problem?

I hear your head shaking from here, and I get it. 

Did I mention....THIS BLOWS!


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I stand by my comments, regardless of TNT's rants. But I defer to the john bridge forums. Go check 'em out.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I find most grout issues are from improper mix ratio. To much liquid makes it more like a sponge than a barrier. 

I know Mapie has an additive for their grout that improves its perm rating. I would not grout a shower with cement base grout without using the additive. 

Tom


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> There are no weep holes in a Schulter system. It is a water barrier system not a water in, water out system.
> 
> Is the drain round or square?
> 
> ...



Like I said, 99% Kerdi. I'm real familiar with em. Just didn't do the hard check tonight. 99.99%.

Sounds like definitely wall.

I just never envisioned a kerdi pan only install with no waterproof membrane whatsoever on the walls.

I meant...FLIR really? I wonder if I could even find a good operator around here. Worth looking into, for this and other things.

Riddle me this.....cementitious over Kerdi, caulked transition, wouldn't this always happen.....water "stacking" at wall base above caulk joint?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Riddle me this.....cementitious over Kerdi, caulked transition, wouldn't this always happen.....water "stacking" at wall base above caulk joint?


I think you mean kerdi over CBU (no the other way around). I would think so, too.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Answer to #1: maybe from permeable grout??
> Answer to #2: maybe from impermeable caulk??
> 
> Ever wonder why tub caulk gets mold/mildew?? Same principle.


I wondered once, and then was educated on the subject. Mold requires one essential thing to grow...organic material. If tub caulk is getting moldy, then you are using the wrong caulk. You should be using only 100% silicone caulk in wet areas. It has nothing to do with the permeability of anything.

But silicone is not a maintenance free product. It has to be replaced or gaps will form and organics from the people using the shower or the products they are using get trapped and allow for a place for mold to grow.

Is there anything else I can teach you tonight?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tjbnwi said:


> I find most grout issues are from improper mix ratio. To much liquid makes it more like a sponge than a barrier.
> 
> I know Mapie has an additive for their grout that improves its perm rating. I would not grout a shower with cement base grout without using the additive.
> 
> Tom


Don't use cementious based grouts in any wet area. No reason to when there are epoxy and urethane grouts that require no maintenance, are much more waterproof than cementious (with additive) and are stain proof.

And you are correct too much water and the material will not cure properly. Typically cracks are indicative of too much water in the mix, that and gaps after it cures.

I used to use cementious with admix, but there is no comparison to epoxy or urethane grouts. None!


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I wondered once, and then was educated on the subject. Mold requires one essential thing to grow...organic material. If tub caulk is getting moldy, then you are using the wrong caulk. You should be using only 100% silicone caulk in wet areas. It has nothing to do with the permeability of anything.
> 
> But silicone is not a maintenance free product. It has to be replaced or gaps will form and organics from the people using the shower or the products they are using get trapped and allow for a place for mold to grow.
> 
> Is there anything else I can teach you tonight?


I have to replace the silicone on my tub to tile transition once a year because if mold. starts building up on the grout behind the silicone. Sure is annoying. I ain't siliconed corners since using QL2 though. Not had one with an issue. Wouldn't attempt it with cementous grout though.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

This exact issue has been talked about for years. If you do your job right and waterproof the substrate, where does the water go that gets by the wall tile and grout?
I think that is exactly what we have here. 
Abstractly thinking, if you did your pan right, you could leave the wall to floor joint free of grout or caulk, and let it weep, as all water above and below the tile will get to your drain. I'm not advocating that of course.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I wondered once, and then was educated on the subject. Mold requires one essential thing to grow...organic material. If tub caulk is getting moldy, then you are using the wrong caulk. You should be using only 100% silicone caulk in wet areas. It has nothing to do with the permeability of anything.
> 
> But silicone is not a maintenance free product. It has to be replaced or gaps will form and organics from the people using the shower or the products they are using get trapped and allow for a place for mold to grow.
> 
> Is there anything else I can teach you tonight?


No, you've shown your ignorance and superiority complex quite enough. Thank you.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Riddle me this.....cementitious over Kerdi, caulked transition, wouldn't this always happen.....water "stacking" at wall base above caulk joint?


Not if the walls were waterproofed and the slope was correct on the pan.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I've never had a Batman question before.

Tile and stone all weep some water, so the question can be asked of any part of a tile system. 

Mapie grout is polymer modified.

This is Mapies grout additive;

http://www.mapei.com/public/US/products/Grout_Maximizer_TDS_EN.pdf

Biggest reason I end up with cementious grout, is color choice. I'm sure the urethanes will catch up eventually. 

Tom


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> No, you've shown your ignorance and superiority complex quite enough. Thank you.


Who advised to grout the plane change? :laughing:


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Don't use cementious based grouts in any wet area. No reason to when there are epoxy and urethane grouts that require no maintenance, are much more waterproof than cementious (with additive) and are stain proof.
> 
> And you are correct too much water and the material will not cure properly. Typically cracks are indicative of too much water in the mix, that and gaps after it cures.
> 
> I used to use cementious with admix, but there is no comparison to epoxy or urethane grouts. None!


I use it all the time, no issues at all. 

Not so much a cure issue as it is- when the mix water dries it leaves an excessive void. When wetted water fills the void and moves through the grout. 

I've used some urethanes, not enough choices yet.

Tom


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

ArtisanRemod said:


> This exact issue has been talked about for years. If you do your job right and waterproof the substrate, where does the water go that gets by the wall tile and grout?
> I think that is exactly what we have here.
> Abstractly thinking, if you did your pan right, you could leave the wall to floor joint free of grout or caulk, and let it weep, as all water above and below the tile will get to your drain. I'm not advocating that of course.


It goes down the wall, under the tile on the pan and out the drain.

Leaving a plane change without caulk would introduce more water than let out. You would have a ton of water riding under the pan tile. First goal is to get the water down the tile into the drain and then the second goal is to control any water that get's behind the tile.

Here's one we finished up recently. I use a preslope pan, vinyl liner, tile pan and then water proof on top of that. I even waterproof the subfloor before installing the 15# felt that the preslope pan sits on. I haven't, and probably won't, make the Schulter (or other comparable system) jump.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

MarkJames said:


> I stand by my comments, regardless of TNT's rants. But I defer to the john bridge forums. Go check 'em out.


Thanks a lot Mark.

I appreciate every word.

I may just have to go hunt down Yoda. I hear he's out there......somewhere. 

TNT's a teddybear. You just want him on your team:thumbsup:..........or you want to throttle him. .....momentarily...it passes.:laughing::thumbsup:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> I use it all the time, no issues at all.
> 
> Not so much a cure issue as it is- when the mix water dries it leaves an excessive void. When wetted water fills the void and moves through the grout.
> 
> ...


Tom have you seen the amount of colors for QL2? They ain't far behind with choice. Not had a customer have issue with lack of choice with it. They normally say why so much choice when I give them the grout sample pack.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Who advised to grout the plane change? :laughing:


Not ideal, but neither is the situation presented. So all you have to offer is a tear out? Nothing to explore before that, Nostradamus? Get off your high horse.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

My guess is that the weep holes are plugged in the drain, the floor substrate is soaked. Grout letting in too much water.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Tom have you seen the amount of colors for QL2? They ain't far behind with choice. Not had a customer have issue with lack of choice with it. They normally say why so much choice when I give them the grout sample pack.


Last time I looked was about a year ago. I'll take look again.

Try filling your bath tub with water before you caulk it. It may get you an extra year out of the job.

Tom


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It goes down the wall, under the tile on the pan and out the drain.
> 
> Leaving a plane change without caulk would introduce more water than let out. You would have a ton of water riding under the pan tile. First goal is to get the water down the tile into the drain and then the second goal is to control any water that get's behind the tile.
> 
> ...


I hear ya, I think most pans are soaked all the time anyway. This shower in question sounds like it has waterproofing in place. I would try to look at the back side of it to confirm its dry before I tore it out. It sounds to me like its working, just not draining from the wall down to under the floor.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tjbnwi said:


> I use it all the time, no issues at all.
> 
> Not so much a cure issue as it is- when the mix water dries it leaves an excessive void. When wetted water fills the void and moves through the grout.
> 
> ...


Too much water effects the curing of grout. Too much water will also cause shrinking. Those are just the facts. While I would agree that it leaves voids, those are the least of your worries if the mix was too watery. A lot of times it is also not left to sit after mixing to allow an even distribution of water.

Like I said, I used it too. Eventually it will have issues and need to be regrouted. It's just the nature of the beast. Epoxy and Urethanes will only need to be replaced when the renovation occurs.

What choices are you looking for? Laticrete and Bostik have pretty much every color that you can imagine. Or is it availability? Just curious.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

ArtisanRemod said:


> My guess is that the weep holes are plugged in the drain, the floor substrate is soaked. Grout letting in too much water.


No weeps. Kerdi drain....99.999% sure. 

I'll call HO to confirm for me, but I'm pretty positive.

Something must be blocking the pathway between wall mortar and floor mortar where the water should be directed. There is no way this _________ cut his chit that tight.

This seems to lend itself to the "phucked" opinion.

We have to assume water enters the wall mortar "cavity". If properly built, it should pass to the floor mortar "cavity" and down the drain.

Theoretically, the grout should not need sealing. The caulk should just be a stop against water entering the shower itself, not holding it in the tile/mortar column.

By this logic, I am leaning towards the "Holmesian" solution. 

But only after a Band-Aid and enough time for me to get to it. Not because I am greedy. If you knew the alternatives, you'd see it as the honorable thing it is.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Too much water effects the curing of grout. Too much water will also cause shrinking. Those are just the facts. While I would agree that it leaves voids, those are the least of your worries if the mix was too watery. A lot of times it is also not left to sit after mixing to allow an even distribution of water.
> 
> Like I said, I used it too. Eventually it will have issues and need to be regrouted. It's just the nature of the beast. Epoxy and Urethanes will only need to be replaced when the renovation occurs.
> 
> What choices are you looking for? Laticrete and Bostik have pretty much every color that you can imagine. Or is it availability? Just curious.


Discoloration in grout (Permacolor) is sure sign of excessive water in the rinse stages.(?)

Could be why it soaks it up so quick.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

ArtisanRemod said:


> I hear ya, I think most pans are soaked all the time anyway. This shower in question sounds like it has waterproofing in place. I would try to look at the back side of it to confirm its dry before I tore it out. It sounds to me like its working, just not draining from the wall down to under the floor.


WHy not?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Not ideal, but neither is the situation presented. So all you have to offer is a tear out? Nothing to explore before that, Nostradamus? Get off your high horse.


Not ideal? It's not recommended by anyone that knows what they are talking about. It will fail. It's ridiculous to dig into a position that is that backwards just to stand your ground. It will do NOTHING to help with this problem. NOTHING!

And go back and read my post. I was pretty careful to say, "WITHOUT SEEING IT". But yes, if there is not proper waterproofing and drainage there is no other option but to start over. Anything else would qualify you as a hack.

Like Matt said, educate your customer and give them a concise explanation of the situation and a REAL solution.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> I hear you, and agree on every single point........except me tearing it out right now.
> 
> I am deep. Way deep....for a good long while and I have no intention of any expansion.
> 
> ...


Unless the floor seems saturated, it's probably not the weeps. Problem is caulk level or above (or combo).


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Not ideal? It's not recommended by anyone that knows what they are talking about. It will fail. It's ridiculous to dig into a position that is that backwards just to stand your ground. It will do NOTHING to help with this problem. NOTHING!
> 
> And go back and read my post. I was pretty careful to say, "WITHOUT SEEING IT". But yes, if there is not proper waterproofing and drainage there is no other option but to start over. Anything else would qualify you as a hack.
> 
> Like Matt said, educate your customer and give them a concise explanation of the situation and a REAL solution.


Just scare-mongering. Keep it up, genius. Clients love that.

You are full of conjecture. You haven't seen it, yet that doesn't stop you from postulating and envisioning the worst, does it? You like to sow fear in your clients, don't you? Make them think they really f%%d up, then present yourself as the solution. Shame on you, if that's what you are in the name of "giving them real story"....but without actually knowing it.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

MarkJames said:


> Unless the floor seems saturated, it's probably not the weeps. Problem is caulk level or above (or combo).


Floor definitely not saturated.

Sealed the floors a couple months ago. I made them stay out of the showers for a couple days after I cleaned them, and those joints soaked up the sealer very well. 

Never seen any sign of excessive moisture holding in the floor joints.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Discoloration in grout (Permacolor) is sure sign of excessive water in the rinse stages.(?)
> 
> Could be why it soaks it up so quick.


In the rinse or mix stage.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> In the rinse or mix stage.


From my chats with Laticrete Technical a while back, could be either.

I had a MINOR issue with it myself a year or so ago after not having used Permacolor for many years.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Too much water effects the curing of grout. Too much water will also cause shrinking. Those are just the facts. While I would agree that it leaves voids, those are the least of your worries if the mix was too watery. A lot of times it is also not left to sit after mixing to allow an even distribution of water.
> 
> Like I said, I used it too. Eventually it will have issues and need to be regrouted. It's just the nature of the beast. Epoxy and Urethanes will only need to be replaced when the renovation occurs.
> 
> What choices are you looking for? Laticrete and Bostik have pretty much every color that you can imagine. Or is it availability? Just curious.


The shrinkage is due to the water molecules evaporating out. Strength and density are compromised due to the evaporation. The open pores are direct paths for the water. The voids are your biggest worry, they are the cause of all the other problems.

I have multiple tile jobs in service more than 25 years old. Long before urethane grout, not an issue with the ones I see at least yearly.

Avaliblity in my area is limited.

Tom


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Just scare-mongering. Keep it up, genius. Clients love that.
> 
> You are full of conjecture. You haven't seen it, yet that doesn't stop you from postulating and envisioning the worst, does it? You like to sow fear in your clients, don't you? Make them think they really f%%d up, then present yourself as the solution. Shame on you, if that's what you are in the name of "giving them real story..but without actually knowing it."


It's called common sense. I don't scare anyone, just tell them like it is.

Conjecture? Everything on this forum is conjecture without seeing it in person. Even your advice is conjecture. I just know from experience. I can't help if I have more than you.

No I don't like to sow fear into anyone. I pride myself on being honest and being able to walk from a job when the right thing needs to be done and they don't want to do it.

I hope that you present yourself as your customers solution in anything you do. It would be ignorant not to. A waste of time.

The facts are the facts. He has water behind the wall tile. It is coming from somewhere. I advised him to seek out the source. Yeah that's fear mongering. If it's cracked grout, remove and replace. I would replace with epoxy or urethane, problem solved. But that leaves the problem of the water not draining like it should once it's behind the wall tile.

How would you solve that? Oh, yeah, grout it and allow it to drain. Problem with that is it may introduce more water to the problem.

If I didn't install it, and I don't have a cool machine that let's me see behind the tile I will only replace. Anything else would be an unnecessary liability. I own it once I touch it. I know for a fact that if I replace it, I can warranty it. There are too many what if's and scenarios that would cost me too much time and money. Been there, done that and I refuse to go back.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tjbnwi said:


> The shrinkage is due to the water molecules evaporating out. Strength and density are compromised due to the evaporation. The open pores are direct paths for the water. The voids are your biggest worry, they are the cause of all the other problems.
> 
> I have multiple tile jobs in service more than 25 years old. Long before urethane grout, not an issue with the ones I see at least yearly.
> 
> ...


I guess we are saying the same thing just in different ways. I too have many cementious installs that are 15 years + old with no real issues. Curious as to why you visit them yearly?


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Whenever I'm back to a home I've worked on I look at my previous work. I find that most do something, even if minor about once a year.

I did a job in July of this year. For some reason I entered the front door instead of through the garage. Looked to my left and there was the first built-in I ever did for a client. That was 27 years ago. I had been back there 2-3 times a year in those 27 years, forgot all about that built-in. It still looked great.

Tom


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> Whenever I'm back to a home I've worked on I look at my previous work. I find that most do something, even if minor about once a year.
> 
> I did a job in July of this year. For some reason I entered the front door instead of through the garage. Looked to my left and there was the first built-in I ever did for a client. That was 27 years ago. I had been back there 2-3 times a year in those 27 years, forgot all about that built-in. It still looked great.
> 
> Tom


I am lucky to have clients I revisit often. Either personal or professional reasons, I love being able to look at my older stuff. 

You can see the result of every decision you made. I wouldn't feel as confident about some of my materials and methods without it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Do you guys find your technique and quality has changed much since you first visited these places to do work. I look back at some of my early pics and think did I really do it like that lol.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Do you guys find your technique and quality has changed much since you first visited these places to do work. I look back at some of my early pics and think did I really do it like that lol.


:thumbsup:
If you ain't gettin' better every year, especially between 25 and 45, you were either some freak savant, or you should get a new job.:laughing:

I look back at old stuff and think, "that's pretty darn nice, for a dumba$$ kid."


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It's called common sense. I don't scare anyone, just tell them like it is.
> 
> Conjecture? Everything on this forum is conjecture without seeing it in person. Even your advice is conjecture. I just know from experience. I can't help if I have more than you.
> 
> ...


Oh, so you don't sow fear, but recommend a tear-out as your first solution? And according to you, there are no other options or explanations? Yet you don't know the water source, but you rip those who make suggestions (based on their assumptions)? Then you justify this with your "more experience" claim? Guess what? You can have 30 years worth of experience and being full of yourself, but that doesn't make it right. Here's a little fact about showers -they get wet!!! So your comment about omitting caulk at the transition and introducing more water..is kind of pointless. The more important issue is whether the water can drain, dry out, evaporate, etc. But let's not let those little scientific facts get in the way of your apparent inferiority complex, eh? How about some disagreement without personal insults? What's up with you?


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Had this same thing. The shower liner where it turns 7" up the wall was filled with water. Various spots with missing grout must have filled liner. 
Also, the weep holes were completely filled. The wall water seeped up in cracked floor grout at plastic quick pitch system. 
Repaired both.


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## smeagol (May 13, 2008)

There is a good chance low thinset coverage is causing the grout discoloring/mildew


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

smeagol said:


> There is a good chance low thinset coverage is causing the grout discoloring/mildew


No chit?

Allowing pooling beneath those points?

New one for me. Thanks.


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## smeagol (May 13, 2008)

The bad joints stay dark/saturated. I learned this the hard way on one of my first showers.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

smeagol said:


> The bad joints stay dark/saturated. I learned this the hard way on one of my first showers.


Do you meen that there is to much mortar in the grout joint causing a shallow grout fill? The mortar is telegraphing through the grout?

Tom


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## essrmo (May 2, 2007)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> I don't ever repair other people's work, I usually just tear it out, or stay away, so this is confusing me a bit.
> 
> Good new clients, found me last year at the tail end of having their 6,000sq custom built by another. They have already recommended me for some nice jobs, so I'm doing my best for them.
> 
> ...


Shower walls and pans have an integral drainage system, as you can see from the water seepage.
Caulking that joint blocks the water passage. water will stack up behind the wall vertically. 
Let it dry and re-grout the joint. Grout is porous, it will let the water pass through on it's way to the drain.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

If you don't have time for the investigation of how to repair then leave the floor /wall intersection alone. Water will seep out rather than build up behind the wall tile. Also, if you apply any sealer or grout repair you will be able to test the effectiveness of the repair. If water stops seeping, you got it fixed.

You really need to know if poly was used behind the cbd or if there was any surface membrane. And what method was used for the shower base.

You might want to check out a WEDI product. It is a liquid which meets the new vapor barrier standards. It might be an excellent waterproofer as well. I only know of the product but haven't used it yet.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Oh, so you don't sow fear, but recommend a tear-out as your first solution? And according to you, there are no other options or explanations? Yet you don't know the water source, but you rip those who make suggestions (based on their assumptions)? Then you justify this with your "more experience" claim? Guess what? You can have 30 years worth of experience and being full of yourself, but that doesn't make it right. Here's a little fact about showers -they get wet!!! So your comment about omitting caulk at the transition and introducing more water..is kind of pointless. The more important issue is whether the water can drain, dry out, evaporate, etc. But let's not let those little scientific facts get in the way of your apparent inferiority complex, eh? How about some disagreement without personal insults? What's up with you?


What's up with me? People who think they know what they are taking about and don't. People who give bad advice thinking they know what the are taking about. 

You can try to frame what I said any way but most of what you said is simply not true. 

For showers that do not drain properly treating out is the only solution, imo.

Like I said, you cannot refute what I have said so you are trying to paint a picture to make yourself look better. Not working. 

I will repeat my advice for the helmet wearers. 

1) find the source of the water
2) if it's bad grout replace
3) find out why the water is pooling at the wall
4) find a REAL solution to the pooling. And unless Mark van recommends something other than grouting the plane change, I don't see any other alternative than to tear out.

That all being said, this is without seeing it. Which is exactly the stipulation I made in the first place. I just happen to hurt sometimes feelings in the process. Which I did apologize for.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> Try filling your bath tub with water before you caulk it. It may get you an extra year out of the job.
> 
> Tom


Used to do this before someone once told me to set tubs and shower trays into veneer plaster. Since doing that the tubs are so solid its like standing on concrete.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

tjbnwi said:


> The grout appears to be the biggest issue for water getting behind the tile :thumbsup:
> 
> With the amount of water that was behind that tile I'd expect to see discoloration on the back of the cement board. My guess is there is waterproofing. :thumbsup:
> 
> Tom


Agreed


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

onthelevel said:


> QL2 = Quartz Lock 2?
> 
> I used it once. Had no problem. 5 years now.
> I went back to one of the good tile shops around here and asked for their color chart.
> ...


I haven't heard anything. Sounds like their buyer went another direction and they are trying to scare you into keeping your business. They know that if they don't carry the products you like and trust you will take your business elsewhere. If they scare you away from your go to product and into their new line, you will stay.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tjbnwi said:


> As soft as that grout looks, it may just fall out.
> 
> Hand grout saw is not to bad. MM and Roto Zip, just have to be real careful.
> 
> Tom


I like my multi-tool for grout removal. Much less scary than a rotozip.

But I agree that it looks like a major grout issue. I would also remove and replace (with epoxy or urethane) and caulk the plane changes.

I am still on the fence concerning any waterproofing on the walls. I agree that it is usually not a secrete with a little investigation.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Also agree on regrouting. Might want to just refer it to another tile pro, especially if you're not too familiar with epoxy or urethane. A good way to wash your hands of this, too.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

MarkJames said:


> Also agree on regrouting. Might want to just refer it to another tile pro, especially if you're not too familiar with epoxy or urethane. A good way to wash your hands of this, too.



I'm 50 buckets deep into QL2 and I love that chit.
I roll epoxy from time to time, Mapei man myself.

But I got you, "I'm not too familiar"........:whistling

You guys aren't hearing me, this guy IS the local "TILE PRO". The one other guy (I'm sure he's out there, somewhere) in 100 miles wouldn't touch it with my float....so to speak.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> The grout appears to be the biggest issue for water getting behind the tile.
> 
> With the 1/2 bond on the tile they may have done a dot install.
> 
> ...


I checked the CBU in some spots that would be unreliable due to proximity, and even near the fixtures, it has only experienced actual showers for maybe 14 months. 

Do you think it would show up on the backside that early?

In one pic the bottom of a stud is suspicious, but I can't be sure.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> I'm 50 buckets deep into QL2 and I love that chit.
> I roll epoxy from time to time, Mapei man myself.
> 
> But I got you, "I'm not too familiar"........:whistling
> ...


Then you share the consensus with the client and they get to call that pro back to redo it, or you could have that "professional conversation" with them, if you're up for it. Too often the grouting is left to some newbie that's probably now long gone, even for a seasoned pro when they've got multiple jobs running. Tell him the grout is leaking like heck, you're stuck in the middle....but he needs to know and you don't want to mess with his work....and it obviously needs attention, etc.

(Tell him how cool the cross is, too.)


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I like my multi-tool for grout removal. Much less scary than a rotozip.
> 
> But I agree that it looks like a major grout issue. I would also remove and replace (with epoxy or urethane) and caulk the plane changes.
> 
> I am still on the fence concerning any waterproofing on the walls. I agree that it is usually not a secrete with a little investigation.


The multi-tool seems like it would kick ass.

I would prefer to spend my whole entire life NOT knowing what it feels like to re-grout a shower.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Multi-tool is by far the best tool for careful grout removal. Hell I use it to clean the joints prior to grouting too.


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

QL2 was bought and now (for a while now) distributed by bostik... sounds like they dont want to deal with bostik


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> I checked the CBU in some spots that would be unreliable due to proximity, and even near the fixtures, it has only experienced actual showers for maybe 14 months.
> 
> Do you think it would show up on the backside that early?
> 
> In one pic the bottom of a stud is suspicious, but I can't be sure.


Take a piece of cement backer board lay it flat and pour some water on it. 

14 months is a lot of water.

Tom


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tjbnwi said:


> Take a piece of cement backer board lay it flat and pour some water on it.
> 
> 14 months is a lot of water.
> 
> Tom


While that would be a neat experiment, you would need to recreate the actual circumstance of the situation. Mortar, tile, waterproofing, screw holes?


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> While that would be a neat experiment, you would need to recreate the actual circumstance of the situation. Mortar, tile, waterproofing, screw holes?


My bad, just substitute a sponge for the grout in this case. 

My guess is, due to the lack of staining on the back of the CBU there is a waterproofing of some kind (it has not been confirmed). He asked if the CBU would show a stain within 14 months if there was no waterproofing. The exercise is to show water penetrates the CBU pretty quickly. 30+ hours of weeping water at the intersection tells me water directly on the CBU is replicating the situation exactly. 

Tom


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tjbnwi said:


> My bad, just substitute a sponge for the grout in this case.
> 
> My guess is, due to the lack of staining on the back of the CBU there is a waterproofing of some kind (it has not been confirmed). He asked if the CBU would show a stain within 14 months if there was no waterproofing. The exercise is to show water penetrates the CBU pretty quickly. 30+ hours of weeping water at the intersection tells me water directly on the CBU is replicating the situation exactly.
> 
> Tom


I would agree that there may be some waterproofing up the pan, that is evident by the fact that there is puddling water on the inside of the shower and no leaks on the outside.

There was a fella on here, who shall not be named, that did some pretty amazing lab tests on different scenarios. I just like his approach. Methodical, not sensational. There are too many variables for simply pouring water on CBU to be definitive, that was my point. Thinset will act as a barrier and redirect the water before it has time to soak through. Just the fact that the CBU is vertical versus horizontal will effect the saturation time.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Water was trapped or slowed behind the wall tile. It will show staining or moisture on the back of the cbu quite easily after months of use if there is no waterproofing.

At this point someone needs to pull a tile to get more answers.

Regarding "The Tile Setter" for the areas builders: it's an opportunity for you to show your stuff. You gonna go after it?


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

olzo55 said:


> Regarding "The Tile Setter" for the areas builders: it's an opportunity for you to show your stuff. You gonna go after it?


Like I said, it's mine, I can't let myself shake it.

The sad fact is that my work is well enough known, and so are my prices.

This guy generally charges around 50% of what I do. Despite this, I have never lost a job to him when in direct competition. But I steer clear of subbing from GC's. Around here, builders want cheap, even on "high-end"(?) customs.

These builders know. They would just rather pocket that dough for themselves. Their choice. I'm good. I have enough trouble keeping up with the tile work on my own jobs. 

I have another job that I will be re-doing in the spring. Client went through the Schluter Rep for a "top-flight" installer for an exterior porch deck over Truba. After she paid him $4K for the privilege of him wasting all those spendy materials, I have to tear it all out and start again. He took advantage of his mud bed to completely kill a nice slope that my buddy framed up, then tried to get it back in the thin set. And then there was the water pouring into the house.....Kerdi Fix as flashing at door penetration....no pitch....


I hate to sound like a snob.....but this place is thin on tilesetters.:sad:


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

You're right about working for GC. You'll make more money direct to homeowner.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Update:

I just ran into the builder and spoke to him about the shower.

I am happy to report that he responded in a completely professional and gentlemanly manner.

He was under the impression that the installer had Kerdi'ed the mud bed and run it up the wall about 8". He thought the CBU was dropped into this "pan".

When I explained that this "hybrid" was incorrect and bound to cause future problems, he responded that he would take whatever necessary action to handle it.

I apologized many times for having to be the messenger and explained I would rather have not been involved. He made clear that he would expect me to give the client my honest assessment, regardless of the effect on him. 

He then asked if I wanted to bid on 18 bath/showers for a hotel.:thumbsup:

So far, so good. Regardless of the outcome, he showed himself to be a credit to our trade. I couldn't be happier about how it went.

I was wondering if anyone has insight into the insurance situation, and likely outcome.....chain of liability, negligence? 
I have never made a claim or been to court for business, so I was wondering how this might play out. 
If a total redo is required, which seems probable...definitive; I want to be able to advise my client properly.

Thanks again, to everyone, for all the help.
I'll update as things progress.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Why do you think this is going to court? Sounds like the builder will take whatever measures are necessary to make it right. Wouldn't he have the other installer repair it?

Take pictures or video as the repair proceeds if you do the replacement. Keep a piece of the wall or floor if you think it explains the reason for the failure. What else are you expecting needs to be done?


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

olzo55 said:


> Why do you think this is going to court? Sounds like the builder will take whatever measures are necessary to make it right. Wouldn't he have the other installer repair it?
> 
> Take pictures or video as the repair proceeds if you do the replacement. Keep a piece of the wall or floor if you think it explains the reason for the failure. What else are you expecting needs to be done?


Well....

The only remedy I see is a total redo. How else can he confidently remedy the situation? Honest question..... I can't imagine that the Kerdi is lapped behind the CBU, and even if it is; between the grout sucking water and the "hybrid" install.....I see only a full demo and re-build in the crystal ball.

Then there is the client. He has made it clear to me that he would insist that I personally handle any "remediation" efforts. He has no faith in the original installer at this point.

I really don't expect a problem, but that may cause a little friction and I was wondering what could be expected if the client is unwavering in that regard. I can't really blame him.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

I pulled this one out today. Looked fine from outside and below. Ceramic over wonderboard with no waterproofing. Womnderboard soaked through, studs rotten. If I had to guess it's ten years old.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tjbnwi said:


> I was not trying to be contentious, just asking a question.
> 
> Tom


Sorry thought I was just answering it. No worries


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Sorry thought I was just answering it. No worries


Not really, you did not state either way.

I still don't understand why asking a question is being contentious. 

Tom


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> Not really, you did not state either way.
> 
> I still don't understand why asking a question is being contentious.
> 
> Tom


Pretty sure it was an AutoSpell correction from CEMENTITIOUS. Works much better contextually.

And his original statement was, "Epoxy and urethane _are much more waterproof_ than cementitious".

Not getting in the middle, but as the "OP", I have an obligation here.:laughing:


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Update:

Just talked to the client. who had just spoken to the GC.

The GC claims he spoke to the original tile installer, who claims that this is an accepted installation method throughout the industry and there is nothing to be concerned about.

So.....

What advice do you guys have in terms of building a "body of evidence" to refute this claim. I want to shut down this idea quickly and conclusively.

I was thinking that i would contact Schluter first......maybe assemble some of their documents that would back me up.

Is there anything else that I could do to make a good case?

Thanks again.
Jonathan


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

The theory and procedure of a particular method may be accepted through out the industry, however execution is key.

What we know: Water should not be getting behind the tile, but is, in enough quantity to pool behind the tile and leak out the plane change. While we do install tile so that if moisture gets behind the tile it is handled properly. I don't agree that water should be drained at the plane change. It should be directed under the tile to the drain, but even then, there really shouldn't be enough water on a constant basis to need to drain as this shower is draining.

I just wrapped up our shower repair job. The installer has used an "acceptable method" to build the pan. He lined the sub floor with the vinyl liner and then placed a mud bed on top of that. He used a clamping drain that was secured with a nut from under the sub floor. The only seal between the drain and sub floor was a bead of caulk.

We also found no water proofing on the walls or VB behind the durock or drywall. Which they installed durock 36" up and the rest was green board with metal corner bead. I am still scratching my head over the corner bead. And guess what, the bead was rusted out in most places a few feet up. And to boot, the liner only went up the wall 3/4"-1.5" passed the mud bed. It was a disaster. Luckily there wasn't more damage.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Blue,
Time to move on. Seriously. Your client can't possibly be pushing you keep pressing this, so there's no point. Wash your hands and move on to the next thing. It's a new year.

...And if they are pressing, tell them to get an attorney. Then they can invest in the case, call in experts and all that. That's not you....let it go......


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Good new clients, found me last year at the tail end of having their 6,000sq custom built by another. They have already recommended me for some nice jobs, so I'm doing my best for them.





MarkJames said:


> Blue,
> Time to move on. Seriously. Your client can't possibly be pushing you keep pressing this, so there's no point. Wash your hands and move on to the next thing. It's a new year.
> 
> ...And if they are pressing, tell them to get an attorney. Then they can invest in the case, call in experts and all that. That's not you....let it go......


Yeah, that's a great move, bail on your customer because it's not your problem? Blue, sounds like you care about your customers and want to help them in any way you can. If that is your gut, then go with it. Serving your "good" customers will never return void.

I think that you are on the right track getting Schluter involved. It will mean a whole lot more coming from the manufacturer than you. I am sitting down today writing up my findings for my customer, at no additional charge, because that is what I would want from my contractor, just someone to help in a situation that I felt lost in and helpless to know what to do.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

I'm sticking with it for many reasons.

They are my clients now, and it is my responsibility.

I guess my real question is......

Has anyone ever done, or heard of a shower being done with a Kerdi "pan" run only 10 inches up the wall over CBU?

It seems like a total F-up to me....and this guy is claiming "industry standard". If this is "industry standard", either I have no idea what I'm doing, or our industry needs an enema.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNT,
"Bail?" After so much time he invested? Not the word I had in mind.

But since you're so full of wisdom, why don't you lay out a plan for Blue? Be sure to estimate time and talk about his due compensation while you're at it. Please identify HIS (not the client's) actual "interest" and liability with this bathroom? How should he describe that "interest" with Schluter. I'm sure they're going to want to know, too. Let's hear it.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> I'm sticking with it for many reasons.
> 
> They are my clients now, and it is my responsibility.
> 
> ...


Blue, 
Did you post any pics in this thread? If so, what #?

When you say it's your responsibility, what does that actually mean? Would you please clarify? Are they reimbursing your time, or is it just that they have come to trust you and are interested to see where this goes (yet without any cost considerations on your part)? In other words, are you doing it as a courtesy as you build the relationship, etc.?

Also, I'm trying to understand any leverage you may have in your role in this predicament. It's one thing to figure out what went wrong (lots, apparently), but what next? If you can't persuade the builder to redo, where does that leave you? What are you paid, expected and empowered to do?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> TNT,
> "Bail?" After so much time he invested? Not the word I had in mind.
> 
> But since you're so full of wisdom, why don't you lay out a plan for Blue? Be sure to estimate time and talk about his due compensation while you're at it. Please identify HIS (not the client's) actual "interest" and liability with this bathroom? How should he describe that "interest" with Schluter. I'm sure they're going to want to know, too. Let's hear it.


You told him to bail, that it wasn't his problem. Whether it's the word you had in mind or not it's what you suggested.

And I have plenty of wisdom, that's probably why I am booked till May at this point and enough work to move into next Fall.

His interest is keeping a good client. If he is smart he will chalk some up to helping a good customer and charge accordingly when he does the repair work.

And I don't think he has an "liability", not sure what you are talking about. He should tell Schluter the story. That a contractor installed their product, refuses to repair and states that his installation methods are acceptable. Schluter will send a rep to look at the job and help with the investigation. It's in their best interest that their products not get a bad rep. Kinda seems like you have never dealt with a manufacturer before.

Anything else that I can educate you on? BTW, sounds like I was right, it needs to be torn out. Funny how that works.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You told him to bail, that it wasn't his problem. Whether it's the word you had in mind or not it's what you suggested.
> 
> And I have plenty of wisdom, that's probably why I am booked till May at this point and enough work to move into next Fall.
> 
> ...


We still don't know the nature of his role regarding this job, so you're just blowing smoke again. You think he should call Schluter? :laughing: Was he hired to follow-up on this job? I still don't know the answer to that. Is he an expert? Is he an attorney? Is he being compensated in any way, whatsoever? Does he have any legal rights, duties etc. in terms of the contract on that job? Is he related to these folks? Unless there's a "yes" to any of these, it's a charitable endeavor. Chalk it up to goodwill. 

So this seems to be your plan:
Call Schluter. They conduct an investigation and tell us what we already know. Blue tells client and says it has to be redone. (Hopefully he gets hired to do it.) Charge accordingly.

Is that about it, TNT? BTW, how should Blue inform them that they have to pay a second time for that bathroom? Do you anticipate that will have any effect on whether he gets the job?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> We still don't know the nature of his role regarding this job, so you're just blowing smoke again. You think he should call Schluter? :laughing: Was he hired to follow-up on this job? I still don't know the answer to that. Is he an expert? Is he an attorney? Is he being compensated in any way, whatsoever? Does he have any legal rights, duties etc. in terms of the contract on that job? Is he related to these folks? Unless there's a "yes" to any of these, it's a charitable endeavor. Chalk it up to goodwill.
> 
> So this seems to be your plan:
> Call Schluter. They conduct an investigation and tell us what we already know. Blue tells client and says it has to be redone. (Hopefully he gets hired to do it.) Charge accordingly.
> ...


He said in his first post that he met them on a tail end of the job and they became good clients. He has received some nice referrals from them.

As for the nature, he said that he was called into to look at it. He also said that the GC of the job was a friend and he was hesitant to call him, but did.

As far as I can tell he was called to look at it and fix it, again I get this from the first post, since he was asking for advice on his possible repair. He also said that he didn't really have the time to tear it out if I remember correctly. 

What does being an expert or attorney have to do with anything? And how would you qualify an "expert". He does this for a living, is humble enough to come online and ask for help. Schluter is an expert in their products, so yes, if the original installer used their products I would call them. There is no harm in doing so.

According to what he said, he didn't have anything to do with the tile installation, therefore no "duty" according to any contract. He has simply been called in as a trusted contractor to fix their issue. Why is that so hard for you to grasp and follow. I would suggest going back and reading the thread again. It's obvious that you have a terrible memory and even worse skills of deductions. I started off by saying a tear out was the best option. You accused me of being a fear monger, turns out I was right. Everything indicates a tear our and proper installation is the prescribed "fix". It's just too bad you couldn't see that from the beginning. 

And it's not a charitable endeavor, there is no payment at the end of charity. This is customer relations. I would assume that if and when he felt the need to charge for his service he will. He certainly doesn't need the likes of you telling when and where he should charge. I figure he's a grown man and can make that decision on his own. Again, it's too bad you don't see that.

As for Schulter, you said leave it to the experts, who else would be more of an expert on their products? I am suggesting the same. Have them give an assessment. Why do this? Legal repercussions. They will have the written statement from Blue and the manufacturer that the products were not installed properly and that a complete demo and installation is required to ensure a solid product. I guess you fail to see that the more evidence you have the better the outcome.

And yes, the manner in which you present yourself and your proposal will greatly effect what the client decides. This is all basic business stuff, I am surprised that you don't know this stuff. 

Seems like you just take the easy jobs and never have to deal with hard situations. I love the challenge and love helping people who have been screwed over by hacks. In the end if he does rebuild the shower and the customers are happy, he not only has won them over but they will be a sounding board for his work and work ethic. Win-Win-Win.

Too bad you don't see anything but mountains and obstacles that are too hard to overcome.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

With all the time that has passed on this thread, I am trying to clarify whether he has obligations with the client to continue addressing it, or whether he is taking it upon himself to do so. I don't think it's clear.

Also, how about we tone down the personal stuff?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> With all the time that has passed on this thread, I am trying to clarify whether he has obligations with the client to continue addressing it, or whether he is taking it upon himself to do so. I don't think it's clear.
> 
> Also, how about we tone down the personal stuff?


What does it matter either way? Either was is an obligation, contractually or self imposed. And neither effect my advice. Yours is to cut and run if he has no contractual obligation.

Saying stuff like I am a fear monger and that all I am doing is blowing smoke is not quite the invitation of a friendly conversation. I just bite back and call it like I see it.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What does it matter either way? Either was is an obligation, contractually or self imposed. And neither effect my advice. Yours is to cut and run if he has no contractual obligation.
> 
> Saying stuff like I am a fear monger and that all I am doing is blowing smoke is not quite the invitation of a friendly conversation. I just bite back and call it like I see it.


"Cut and run"....not what I'm saying. Just gauging the present expectation of client. Also, by now a major decision probably should have been made. This thing is dragging on too long, imho. 

But you are correct that I didn't remember much of this thread- been a while since I visited it. Anyway, the pics say enough for me. That joint would make me nuts. 

As for biting back, me too, regarding some of your responses. No need to rehash it. Later.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Blue,
> Time to move on. Seriously. Your client can't possibly be pushing you keep pressing this, so there's no point. Wash your hands and move on to the next thing. It's a new year.





MarkJames said:


> "Cut and run"....not what I'm saying.


That's odd.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> That's odd.


I'm fairly sure that if you were in his shoes, you would have encouraged a decision by now, one way or the other. Also, the readers of this thread would have a better understanding about the client's current "buy-in" to all this, and their expectations. We are way past "come have a look and tell me what you think". 

As for "client relations", did the client hire him to do this...to this extent? I mean beyond the "come have a look" part. I'm not so sure. Maybe I'm wrong, but something isn't quite right. Does his client realize that it's sizing up as a possible redo? I hope so. Will the client perceive this is as a conflict of interest in any way, if it were to require a redo...by him? Has the client asked for any lesser alternatives that they might try first? Lot's of questions. 

I think I've been fairly reasonable in my comments. If you don't like them, fine. But it seems like you are trolling instead of replying reasonably with comments that differ.

Way back in this thread, when you started with quoting and red highlighting me, calling me out, etc., that took the cake. Classy. "No real tile pro would ever grout a plane change...." Well, you might think that, but you're wrong.... I know that I can't argue with you because it's that way "by definition"...I get it. That's why my comment was prefaced with "I might catch heck for saying this..." But I also have seen plenty of tile pros that do solid work with that. (You would call them hacks, by definition, of course.) But anyway, it's reality.....they've been around a long time doing fine work. Oh, and by the way, John Bridge has admitted to always grouting some of his plane changes. He knows it's "not by the book" (he writes tile books), but he also mentions that he does the extra prep so it won't fail. All that being said, I don't recommend it in general. Again, that's why I wrote it the way I did. But based on that comment you jumped all over it and called me out. Who's really trying to start something around here all the time?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

You clearly haven't read my posts. I just did a repair shower job. I did an extensive analysis and report at no charge. I was charging double what anyone else was abd won the job. 

I would never tell someone to bail on a good customer.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

And you will always have cracks in the grout on plane changes. Regardless of what sine big names do.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I would never tell someone to bail on a good customer.


Forget that. I'm done with your negativity.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> And you will always have cracks in the grout on plane changes. Regardless of what sine big names do.


Not if you know how to build it right.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Not if you know how to build it right.


You cannot stop two planes from moving at different rates.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

And I thought you didn't want to relive the whole thread?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Let's get back to the topic. Contact schluter abd see what they say.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

MarkJames said:


> Forget that. I'm done with your negativity.


He's on his way to Richmond!:thumbsup: 

Throw some of your subs his way Mark! :laughing:


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You cannot stop two planes from moving at different rates.


Sure you can. Lock 'em together. Tie the framing together, not just taping the seams. I've got 20 year old durock jobs that say so. Similar principal for the newer materials. Most cracks are attributable to quick prep. Screw the framing to the floor and that helps, too. It can be done.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Sure you can. Lock 'em together. Tie the framing together, not just taping the seams. I've got 20 year old durock jobs that say so. Similar principal for the newer materials. Most cracks are attributable to quick prep. Screw the framing to the floor and that helps, too. It can be done.


The tile expands as well. You cannot didn't anything to keep that from moving. Cementious grout will eventually crack.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> The tile expands as well. You cannot didn't anything to keep that from moving. Contentious grout will eventually crack.


It works for me. My tile doesn't know enough to expand/contract (please don't tell it). What's contentious grout, anyway?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> It works for me. My tile doesn't know enough to expand/contract (please don't tell it). What's contentious grout, anyway?


It's obviously auto correct... something else I need to educate you on. So we are back to personal?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It's obviously auto correct... something else I need to educate you on. So we are back to personal?


Obviously. You could have let that pass with a laugh or something.

What's with the "educate you" comments all the time? Chill.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

As a moderator I really really miss Angus to handle these things.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Obviously. You could have let that pass with a laugh or something.
> 
> What's with the "educate you" comments all the time? Chill.


And you could have just let it be an auto correct issue. I am one chilled dude. :laughing:

BTW, you said that I am just trolling. I actually looked and was the first to comment on Blue's update. Hardly trolling, I just disagree with your methods and your rabbit trail on his obligations and such.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

rselectric1 said:


> As a moderator I really really miss Angus to handle these things.


Nah, Angus wouldn't have let me have this much fun. :whistling


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Wow!


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

rselectric1 said:


> As a moderator I really really miss Angus to handle these things.


Some of us have the ability, but lack the time or give a damn.....


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## ranteso (Nov 11, 2010)

I didn't read every post, kind of breezed through. But I did catch this from post #205


"The GC claims he spoke to the original tile installer, who claims that this is an accepted installation method throughout the industry and there is nothing to be concerned about."

This is the mentality in an industry of neanderthals. It's called foolish consistency, an industry of fools following fools. 

The op needs to first understand why he was called in after a major remodel. That to me is a huge red flag and is time for the owners to answer a few very direct questions from the op.

Personally, I would not get involved; however if I did I would approach them as an attorney would. Have them agree to compensating me on a time bases, otherwise you'll get reeled in and lose your shirt. 

I see this more often than not and is usually the result of the owners going with the bottom feeder. You can not do quality work that will have a long life inexpensively. It's a simple law of economics.

I'll never "repair" previous work (I did twice in all my years). Never again. Rip out completely and start from ground zero, it's the only way you can guarantee the longevity of the work. 

That bathroom is the least of the owners problems, they just haven't surfaced yet. Give the gremlins time, they'll come out and show their ugly faces.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I suggested the same early on and got called a fear monger.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

what "case" can you build without pulling a tile or two?


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

I do hybrid with Kerdi boards, hydroban , and 9235 Waterproofing Membrane - Laticrete...


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

Blue updated 2 days ago and TNT hasn't commented. Can someone in his area do a welfare check on him?


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

They are probably working


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

ArtisanRemod said:


> Blue updated 2 days ago and TNT hasn't commented. Can someone in his area do a welfare check on him?


He updated at 5pm on Monday, it's 7am Wednesday, don't panic I am just fine. I am surprised that Ozlo hasn't responded.


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

They are both holding hands


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

He's made up his mind. No point in suggesting anything more.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

olzo55 said:


> He's made up his mind. No point in suggesting anything more.


Suggest away......I really just want to do what's right.

I want to advise them properly.

I do not have the desire to repair a system that I believe was installed improperly.

Would you ever install one like that?

What would you do if you were in the same situation as me?

I am completely sincere in wanting to know what your "recommendations" would be.

Given that the original installer has verified what I assumed from my investigations. Kerdi....8" up.....no further waterprooofing or even vapor barrier. Cementitious that is clearly soaking up water like a sponge.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Floormasta78 said:


> I do hybrid with Kerdi boards, hydroban , and 9235 Waterproofing Membrane - Laticrete...


Hybrid like that......good.

Hybrid ...1/10 membrane-9/10 wide open...bad.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

I said back some 200 posts ago that if there was no waterproofing above the kerdi, I would tear it out. But I wouldn't recommend a tearout either not knowing or not checking. Too many hybrid installs. ( I like the Kerdi drain but hate the corner pieces, especially in niches.)

The original installer finally told you how it was built. But it took until these last few pages to get that information.

Your situation is not new to me. I have builders ask me to help when leaks happen with their installers.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> I said back some 200 posts ago that if there was no waterproofing above the kerdi, I would tear it out. But I wouldn't recommend a tearout either not knowing or not checking. Too many hybrid installs. ( I like the Kerdi drain but hate the corner pieces, especially in niches.)
> 
> The original installer finally told you how it was built. But it took until these last few pages to get that information.
> 
> Your situation is not new to me. I have builders ask me to help when leaks happen with their installers.


He posted pictures a 100 posts ago that looked like there was no other membrane or waterproofing on the walls. All you could see was CBU. Don't know about anyone else but when I install AD you can see it when the trim is off and any CBU is exposed.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

I wouldn't recommend a $10-15,000 tearout based on peering into a valve opening. The original installer might have stopped just short with waterproofing for whatever reason. In under an hour two tile could be removed. No guessing or probablies.

So if the Kerdi was all the way up or some other waterproofing what then? There are only a few ways water can get behind the tile. Plumbing leak ( which should be tested), cracked tile, grout - missing,cracked or very porous, and corners/ change of planes.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> I wouldn't recommend a $10-15,000 tearout based on peering into a valve opening. The original installer might have stopped just short with waterproofing for whatever reason. In under an hour two tile could be removed. No guessing or probablies.
> 
> So if the Kerdi was all the way up or some other waterproofing what then? There are only a few ways water can get behind the tile. Plumbing leak ( which should be tested), cracked tile, grout - missing,cracked or very porous, and corners/ change of planes.


I guess I just don't think pulling a few tiles is as conclusive as you are trying to imply. No more so than it not being visible behind any trim.

They may have waterproof 48" up. Pull above and you think there us no waterproofing. Pull below and you think there is waterproofing.

Plus you have now introduced a patch that you have no real way to repair 100%.

Like I said before, sloppy pan, crooked tiles, bad grout lines, and seepage from a brand new shower (x2) is not what the client paid for and the fact that they didn't know any better is not a reason they should be stuck with it. I actually find that scary that you said that. They deserve a proper installation, built by proven methods and looks amazing. 

I also am trusting the op. He was in site and has am over all picture of the situation. He has also stated that he didn't really have the time for a tear out, so we know his motivation isn't $, but the best for his good customers.


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## bowtie (Feb 4, 2012)

ArtisanRemod said:


> Tear it out and do it right if your name is on it. Simple. Done yet?




^^
This ...


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Sure, but easier said than paid for.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Sure, but easier said than paid for.


I never worry about getting paid. Pretty simple, either you pay our it doesn't happen.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I never worry about getting paid. Pretty simple, either you pay our it doesn't happen.


Yup.


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## bowtie (Feb 4, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I never worry about getting paid. Pretty simple, either you pay our it doesn't happen.


You collect before the job is complete?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

bowtie said:


> You collect before the job is complete?


50% Deposit
25% Progress
25% Upon major % complete or complete


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Time for a reality check. Let's separate the water issue from the other subjective issues. In addition, I suppose Blue showed the worst issues in the photos.

Master Bath
If you look at the pictures, what is it about the grout that can't be repaired? That chunk of grout can be fixed rather easily. The corner should have been caulked as well as other changes of plane on the wall. Can the poor miter be repaired. Sure can. I wouldn't tearout a shower over these.

Some mosaics out a bit? A tile turned. Sloppy slope on mudbed (whatever that is) I'll point it out but they make the call. If they can live with it I don't impose or insist it be done. If they don't like that mosaic or other issue then it gets fixed. Not scary, it's their call. 

Water issue. It's the open grout joint and lack of caulk. And that can be tested. But what of the waterproofing? If the original installer said he didn't waterproof above the Kerdi then case closed, it's a tearout. But if he said he it's waterproofed to industry standards then I would pull tile to check. What height should the waterproofing be? Choose the TCNA standard of full height or Schluters' just above the showerhead standard. 

The lower shower doesn't have enough close up pictures to determine a solution.

So a repaired shower isn't good enough for you? What if it is good enough for the homeowner? You gonna stomp your feet and go all Holmesian on them?


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

Olzo how to you dry out tht mess before you regrout and caulk. How do you confirm that you haven't sealed off a soupy moldy mess that will tear its ugly head later?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Time for a reality check. Let's separate the water issue from the other subjective issues. In addition, I suppose Blue showed the worst issues in the photos.
> 
> Master Bath
> If you look at the pictures, what is it about the grout that can't be repaired? That chunk of grout can be fixed rather easily. The corner should have been caulked as well as other changes of plane on the wall. Can the poor miter be repaired. Sure can. I wouldn't tearout a shower over these.
> ...


No one said anything about stomping? I am just taking the ops words that the showers are a mess. Since I have not seen it in person and only have a few pictures that don't give enough detail to make the assertions you are making, I would say tear it out. 

Is a repaired shower good enough, not when it's brand new and is not done properly. Like I said, pulling one tile from around the shower head is not conclusive, no more than removing the trim. And that's my problem, your tests don't conclusive prove anything. That's why I would tell them, considering all of the issues that I see, I can not conclude whether the shower was properly constructed, and I cannot guarantee anything unless I tear out and rebuild it.

I would not definitively conclude that it was built wrong, but without pictures of the installation in progress, none of us can be sure.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

ArtisanRemod said:


> Olzo how to you dry out tht mess before you regrout and caulk. How do you confirm that you haven't sealed off a soupy moldy mess that will tear its ugly head later?


Great question. Since we don't know if the shower had the water problem from day one or if it occured 3 months ago, is there any evidence of mold on the grout? Of course, it might be behind the tile. Are there any mold remediation products that could be surface applied or sprayed into the cracked grout. Yes there are.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

He could tell pretty easy by the water that was seeping out of the wall when he pulled the caulk.


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

i hope your being compensated for alllll this time your spending looking at it... you could have re built it 5 times over by now!


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Check out this online magazine for mold, floods and asbestos remediation products and methods.

"Restoration and Remediation"


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

This is exactly the type of problem I get called to figure out for builders.
Of course you start looking for waterproofing at the plumbing trims.But if that's inconclusive, you can tell if there is waterproofing much better by pulling a tile or two. After the tile is removed, you score the surface of the backer. The membrane can be peeled up. If that doesn't work then core the backer. Now you have a piece in your hand to examine.

But this job you can ask the original installer. That makes it easier. You can learn a lot if you ask the right questions.

Regarding repairing a new installation. If the kitchen were finished with granite tops and a cabinet gets scratched do they tear it all out? They get a touchup specialist. Crack in the foundation? Call the foundation repair specialist. Stuff happens. If you're good, you can fix it.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> This is exactly the type of problem I get called to figure out for builders.
> Of course you start looking for waterproofing at the plumbing trims.But if that's inconclusive, you can tell if there is waterproofing much better by pulling a tile or two. After the tile is removed, you score the surface of the backer. The membrane can be peeled up. If that doesn't work then core the backer. Now you have a piece in your hand to examine.
> 
> But this job you can ask the original installer. That makes it easier. You can learn a lot if you ask the right questions.
> ...


I guess if your examples were Apples too Apples but it's funny that you choose a cosmetic cabinet flaw and a crack in the foundation. 

If the cabinet doors didn't close and the cabinets were not plumb, I would recommend pulling and rehanging. If the foundation crack was leaking, I would have them properly repair it giving them a tight basement, even if it meant the had to dig up around the outside of the foundation or the finished floor of the basement. I wouldn't just squeeze caulk all over it, and if it stopped, call it a day. I would give them what they paid for, which is not only a sound installation but one that gives them peace of mind.

And while it's great that you can talk to the guy and play Sherlock asking him the "right questions", it is still only his word and so far I don't trust him as far as I could throw him. I had access to the last guy, but I am sure glad I didn't waste my time. The home owner did speak to the HO and the contractor and all they would say is how offended they were that the HO was accusing them of building a shoddy shower. We found paper towels taped to the underside of the drywall beneath the shower drain. When the HO confronted them about it they both accused the current owner of planting the paper towel themselves. So while it may be fun to play 20 questions, after looking at the last shower the guy did, I was better off just assuming that everything was built wrong and going from there. And guess what, it was.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

So you do repairs? I thought it would have to be ripped out. 

BTW, what if that foundation repair were on the driveway side of the house and the driveway butted up to the house foundation? And it had radiant heat in the driveway? Gonna dig all that up? And btw, I also do foundation repairs- injections and other products.

Good story about not trusting the installer. I did mention verifying the waterproofing but you only read what you want. 
I looked a the picutures and conclude the open grout joint is the source of water along with lack of caulking. Very doable repair that can be tested. You looked at same pictures but only see tearout.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> So you do repairs? I thought it would have to be ripped out.
> 
> BTW, what if that foundation repair were on the driveway side of the house and the driveway butted up to the house foundation? And it had radiant heat in the driveway? Gonna dig all that up? And btw, I also do foundation repairs- injections and other products.
> 
> ...


Olzo, it's unfortunate that you are so short sighted and only see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. We have really only been discussing one scenario, the OP, and yet you some how wish to paint me with one broad brush because I disagree with your approach, think that your "testing" isn't any more conclusive than mine and believe what the OP, Schluter and many others believe, that in THIS INSTANCE, with ALL of the issues that these showers have, the OP shouldn't touch it without rebuilding it. And I have repeatedly said that is with the stipulation that I HAVE NOT SEEN THE SHOWER.

So please stop repeated false conclusions that insinuate I am not a competent contractor, who's only desire is to rip things out instead of doing what's right for the customer.

Regarding the pictures, I actually said that they are not good enough to make any real assertions. Again, I have said that with the information presented, not just the pictures, he should DEFINITIVELY find the source of the water seepage and determine a course of actions. I have also said that with the other described issues that the customer truly deserves what the paid for and even if you repair the seepage, what other issues may present themselves and how do you solve the sloppy slop, bad grout lines and crooked tiles.

You have stated that since the customer didn't say anything at the time the took the keys, they are SOL. It is appalling that you think a customer has one shot and done when it comes to satisfaction. During a closing a customer has many items to review and there is a reason the house is under warranty. The customer deserves a better product.

One last point, we actually agree on this and you don't even see it. We both agree that if the walls are not waterproofed the showers needs to be ripped out. The one thing the pictures do show is bare cement board behind the trim. While this is enough for me, it isn't for you to make the same conclusion.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

I have said it could be a tearout but we differ on how quickly to get to that conclusion. 
All the problems this shower has may be repairable except the waterproofing which is verifiable. I don't jump to conclusions without more evidence. That's one of the differences between us.
Also, your say the shower should be 100% but allow for repairs of other construction defects in other trades. A doubles standard,no? I believe that it can be brought up to whatever level is acceptable to the homeowner.

The OP said he has little experience in diagnosing shower problems. I have a lot. Walking in that shower he should have seen wet grout joints at the bottom of the wall before he cut the caulk. And checked for missing grout and caulk. Since it doesn't leak outside the shower it is an internal leak. The hundreds of gallons of water the shower takes each month going over a cracked or missing grout joint is going to get into the wall. Fix the joint fixs the leak. A repair not a tearout.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> I have said it could be a tearout but we differ on how quickly to get to that conclusion.
> All the problems this shower has may be repairable except the waterproofing which is verifiable. I don't jump to conclusions without more evidence. That's one of the differences between us.
> Also, your say the shower should be 100% but allow for repairs of other construction defects in other trades. A doubles standard,no? I believe that it can be brought up to whatever level is acceptable to the homeowner.
> 
> The OP said he has little experience in diagnosing shower problems. I have a lot. Walking in that shower he should have seen wet grout joints at the bottom of the wall before he cut the caulk. And checked for missing grout and caulk. Since it doesn't leak outside the shower it is an internal leak. The hundreds of gallons of water the shower takes each month going over a cracked or missing grout joint is going to get into the wall. Fix the joint fixs the leak. A repair not a tearout.


You have the same info and have come to a conclusion as well. How is mine quick and yours is not? The only difference is our conclusion.

Did I say 100%? I think I said they deserve what they paid for. You cannot just regrout a bad grout line. The grout will continue to fall out if the line is too small or tapers to a point. And yes I believe that if an installer is that sloppy on what you can see imagine what you can't see looks like. 

I don't have x-ray vision and could not in good faith say that the shower will hold up over time.

If we were just talking about failing grout, which I have replaced many times, I would agree, but we aren't. The entire perimeter is seeping.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

As much fun as it was, this slap fest is over for me.

To the OP: If you are going to step in between the builder/installer and the homeowner then you better be right about your conclusion. Don't tell them it's a tearout without doing any checking. If it turns out it's waterproofed but just a cracked grout joint not only will you look bad but they will as well for insisting it's a tearout to the builder. And the builder and homeowner will surely mention it to other people.

Rob, you told the OP to find the source but didn't offer any way for him to do that. How helpful. 

The water is the critical issue the rest is aesthectics. The sloppy shower floor slope or the twisted tile don't affect the water getting behind the wall. Besides, the homeowner may not want their house torn up or it just might not bother them to have the other issues. It's their choice not yours or the OP's. He can mention something about it but it's up to them to decide. 

It's funny how you mention how you think I portray you. How often do you disparage someone in your posts? You did it several times in this thread. Of course when you do it it's ok. Think about it.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> As much fun as it was, this slap fest is over for me.
> 
> To the OP: If you are going to step in between the builder/installer and the homeowner then you better be right about your conclusion. Don't tell them it's a tearout without doing any checking. If it turns out it's waterproofed but just a cracked grout joint not only will you look bad but they will as well for insisting it's a tearout to the builder. And the builder and homeowner will surely mention it to other people.
> 
> ...


Yeah and you told him to splash some water on it, bravo for stating the obvious. Disparage is a little different that completely misrepresent. Look it up. As far that goes that's a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black. You have no issue disparaging either.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

You both have some good points. Your mother and I love you both equally, we don't have favorites.

To the OP, if you aren't really solid on diagnosing a shower then I wouldn't step in between the HO and a local builder. If the HO want's to hire you to do the repair/replacement, fine. Don't end up in a situation where it's your word vs. the builder in a lawsuit or insurance claim, you're not getting paid enough for that.

If it's just you and the HO then I'd start out slow and pull some tile, do some core cuts. I don't have a problem offering a repair to a HO with the caveat that I'm just fixing what I KNOW is wrong and that there might be additional issues. I'll also present them with a replacement option and let them decide what kind of risk tolerance/budget they have. Good wording in contracts can keep you from owning all the liability but you should have the wording looked at by a lawyer. I know a couple guys that can revise that kind of thing for less than $100 for me.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

(kick)...wake up!...not done yet...


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

This is for you Rob so you can conclusively tell if there is a membrane behind tile. 
The square was cut and peeled off of cbd. Wetting and scraping reveals the membrane. Conclusive, I think.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

The homeowner isn't SOL. The homeowner showered for over a year with a poorly cut miter and a gob of grout. Seems obvious that they would mention it to the builder if it bothered them. Also, they could have asked the OP to touch up those items as well but he was only there to clean the shower floors.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> This is for you Rob so you can conclusively tell if there is a membrane behind tile.
> The square was cut and peeled off of cbd. Wetting and scraping reveals the membrane. Conclusive, I think.


I didn't say that you could tell if it was behind a particular tile. I think it would also be present at the trim openings as well.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> The homeowner isn't SOL. The homeowner showered for over a year with a poorly cut miter and a gob of grout. Seems obvious that they would mention it to the builder if it bothered them. Also, they could have asked the OP to touch up those items as well but he was only there to clean the shower floors.


I like the seems obvious comment. Funny how things that need to suit your argument are obvious but not others.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I guess I just don't think pulling a few tiles is as conclusive as you are trying to imply. No more so than it not being visible behind any trim.



????? I guess you've never looked.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I think that you are too cowardice to confront anyone else. I believe that you think you are superior to me and my skills and take issue when I assert myself.


I thought I'd let a stupid comment like this hang in the air before I comment.

How many threads have you burned down? The name calling, I know better than anyone else attitude, and opinion without facts is your MO.
I'll bet more new people would comment if they weren't afraid to be called a "hack" by you.

Did you see that I used the same type of comments with you? Now you know what it's like. And how did you respond? Calling me a coward and other disparaging comments. Funny how it's OK when you do it but not when it happens to you.

Finally, I do have more experience than you in tile. That's a fact.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> I thought I'd let a stupid comment like this hang in the air before I comment.
> 
> How many threads have you burned down? The name calling, I know better than anyone else attitude, and opinion without facts is your MO.
> I'll bet more new people would comment if they weren't afraid to be called a "hack" by you.
> ...


Please show me where I have called anyone a hack? The vast majority of my posts are positive. Funny how those that keep bumping heads with be are the same handful of guys. No coincidence there? :laughing: 

Maybe more experience but definitely not better, and that's a fact. You are a coward. Others have said the same thing as me but because you think you are better than me I am an easier target. Only thing is on this thread you are wrong. Nearly everyone, including the OP, Schuller....agree tear out.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

well you are the self proclaimed "head of the snake", right?:thumbsup: It's brave to go after the head of the snake. Only a coward would suggest going after someone else.:laughing: Maybe you need to get the dictionary out and look up those words.

you only implied "hack" in this thread. You really said to another member how he knows nothing about caulking and "only a true tiler" would never grout the change of plane at the floor of the shower. I guess JB on that other forum needs to hear your wisdom because he leaves it grouted.And how you could educate same member,teach him and how you have so much more experience than him (without even knowing his background.) For a guy that claims he didn't know tiling until Angus showed him a few years back, you're pretty full of yourself.

So how does the Schluter guy know whats behind the wall tile? Maybe he could say "without seeing it" I know there isn't a membrane of any sort above the Schluter pan material. Hardly a thorough investigation when he's just talking over the phone. And someday when you actually do a Schluter shower, you'll be able to speak with some knowledge about their product.

Doesn't bother me that others agree or disagree with me about how to figure this out. I've actually said what to look for and how to test it. James, Artisan, tjbnwi all made good points. They can make their point without being a jerk to the other members unlike you.

Most of the time, I let your silly comments go, figuring why bother. No point in trying to educate such a stubborn person. I doubt I'm alone on that.

Seriously, you're better?:laughing::no: You're good but I'll compare client lists any day. And, just how long have you tiled? You said how much more experience you had than another member to somehow impress us. But your explanations in this thread are anything but experienced. So I call BS about your experience (one of your terms, btw.)

For anyone interested, check out the book " Spy the Lie" it relates strongly to this thread. This thread could be one of the examples for several reasons.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> well you are the self proclaimed "head of the snake", right?:thumbsup: It's brave to go after the head of the snake. Only a coward would suggest going after someone else.:laughing: Maybe you need to get the dictionary out and look up those words.
> 
> you only implied "hack" in this thread. You really said to another member how he knows nothing about caulking and "only a true tiler" would never grout the change of plane at the floor of the shower. I guess JB on that other forum needs to hear your wisdom because he leaves it grouted.And how you could educate same member,teach him and how you have so much more experience than him (without even knowing his background.) For a guy that claims he didn't know tiling until Angus showed him a few years back, you're pretty full of yourself.
> 
> ...


Like I have said, you have not confronted anyone else but me. At least I have the balls to confront anyone. You think that most don't like me here and that it will garner you support. You waited until I unsubscribed to go off again. Yea, that's not cowardly. So bro your just a joke. I confronted you, mark... anyone that directly or indirectly contradicted or misrepresented what I said. You? Nope. Many guys agreed that they wouldn't touch it with ALL of it's problems. Many said it wouldn't be worth owning it, because once you touch it you own it. 

Admit it. It boils your blood when any one would agree or say the same thing I do. And that's your real problem. No one listened to you and now your butt hurt.

So when do you want to meet up and compare work? Time and place baby! You laid out the challenge, now let's see if you got the stones to follow through.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

You think confrontation is wisdom and solves problems. Hardly. Why should I confront someone that can state their point without being a jerk? I can discuss view points with Artisan without being confrontational. Like grownups do.

Worked for the #1 remodeling co in the Chicagoland area,3 mayors, a couple of village trustees, the father of a state rep,the CFO of the Chicago Tribune, 8.5 years with tile shop in a high end area and various doctors and regular people, too. What's on your cocktail napkin?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> You think confrontation is wisdom and solves problems. Hardly. Why should I confront someone that can state their point without being a jerk? I can discuss view points with Artisan without being confrontational. Like grownups do.
> 
> Worked for the #1 remodeling co in the Chicagoland area,3 mayors, a couple of village trustees, the father of a state rep,the CFO of the Chicago Tribune, 8.5 years with tile shop in a high end area and various doctors and regular people, too. What's on your cocktail napkin?


You know what. I had three responses typed out but realized you aren't worth it. I an sure that it's best for this thread and the forum to stop.

So say what you will. Say that I saw your client list and got scared, I really don't care.

I have great customers, great reviews and am booked till the end of June with as much work as I want. I have worked for MLS players, city officials, VPs of major corporations, doctors, lawyers and the like. And yes even the regular people as you out it. But to me it's the regular people that matter most.

And the difference between me and you is you used to work for the #1 remodeling company in Chicagoland, I now own the #1 remodeling company in Chicagoland. :laughing:.


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## Patsfanindallas (Aug 27, 2013)

Maybe you 2 should get a beer and talk about something everyone can agree on, how totally awesome I am.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Patsfanindallas said:


> Maybe you 2 should get a beer and talk about something everyone can agree on, how totally awesome I am.


I bought the guy a beer once. He was a sweetheart in person. I believe we were butting heads at that time as well.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> You think confrontation is wisdom and solves problems. Hardly. Why should I confront someone that can state their point without being a jerk? I can discuss view points with Artisan without being confrontational. Like grownups do.
> 
> Worked for the #1 remodeling co in the Chicagoland area,3 mayors, a couple of village trustees, the father of a state rep,the CFO of the Chicago Tribune, 8.5 years with tile shop in a high end area and various doctors and regular people, too. What's on your cocktail napkin?


Does having more posts on ct count?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> Does having more posts on ct count?


Angus won a long time ago.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Angus won a long time ago.


So that's why he's the tile god?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> So that's why he's the tile god?


Nah he could have one post and have that title.

I get to work with him this weekend. He's buried with work and asked if I could help.


I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy.

But seriously gonna be cool to work with him finally.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Inner10 said:


> Does having more posts on ct count?


Having posts of substance is good. But many experienced people don't post a lot,too. 

Some people post "hi" to new members. Does that mean they have construction knowledge or just being nice?


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I bought the guy a beer once. He was a sweetheart in person. I believe we were butting heads at that time as well.


I remember that. You insulted me on here a few weeks before that. I wanted to go to meet Angus (again),Ron and the guy who thought post count was more important than substance.

I can be a nice guy or a pita. Depends on who I deal with.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

The saga continues.....

I just met with the HO (who, as I have mentioned numerous times, are STELLAR human beings, and a credit to homeowners and clients everywhere).

The original GC's response....as paraphrased......

"there are no "industry standards" with this stuff, and that is what all the installers do around here (the completely incorrect hybrid failure--in-waiting), so I have no responsibility to remedy anything".

:blink:


I believe he added something about them looking to reduce costs.....which I assume implies it was their fault anyway.


Truth be told, that chit makes me livid.

As much as I hate being the guy in the middle, hearing that line of dogchit makes me want to go to the mattresses. 

Thanks again....

I'll update if anything else happens.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Well that's a great attitude and business model.

Looks like an opportunity in the making.

Has any water leaked into the wall or mold develop on the grout?


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

olzo55 said:


> Well that's a great attitude and business model.
> 
> Looks like an opportunity in the making.
> 
> Has any water leaked into the wall or mold develop on the grout?


To be totally honest....

I was there about a cork flooring install on their first floor slab, and I didn't even look (the joints have been left wide open......to allow for "proper" drainage though:blink.

The HO (and is wife) are exceedingly decent and "positive" people, and I think they have tried very hard to not let this become adversarial and combative with the GC. 

When it came up in our conversation, I felt as if I needed to temper my disgust and frustration.

Which was difficult....no, impossible. 
I just traded a few emails last month with a fellow contractor who wanted me to do a Kerdi shower and bathroom floor for him (fairly involved....niches, bench, inlays in shower; main floor on diagonal with 1" mosaic inlay wrapping in 4 tile groups...etc....etc.). I asked him how much he had budgeted for the job so I could tell if we were even in the same zip code.

He tells me $5k. I ask ...labor right?....thinking I may break down and do it because I like this kid. Nope....the whole enchilada.

When I respectfully decline and ask him not to bother me anymore (5th or so time) he has the nuts to tell me that "his clients know what things should cost, and would know he was "overcharging" them if he asked for $5k in labor alone"......as if I was some kind of phucking thief or something. 

Meanwhile, this "other guy" will do the job, install the same POS that he does everywhere ("No industry standard....locally accepted"), and the clients will be none the wiser....until it's too late.

How many of these clients will be lucky enough to have one of us meander into their showers because of some missing grout (insignificant to problem) and figure this out early enough?

Around my locale....apparently not many. 

The GC.......
I am losing any respect I had for. To be educated on this issue, and then revert to "not my problem" when taken to task, is cheap and unprofessional IMO. Either he is not that smart, or just a douche. 

As you can see, it pisses me off. But, the HO is taking it in stride and it isn't my place to inflame him if that isn't his desire. I think I may have already though.....:whistling

I hate being "that guy". The tattle-tale. But this is bullchit! And even though I have to live and work here, I have to stand for something. 
It's about the HO's and the hard earned money they spent on dogchit, and about me, having to make a living where this is considered "acceptable".

I had the local Building Inspector come do a flood test on a Kerdi shower I am doing right now. I felt the burning NEED to lace my commentary with a bit of education. He is a good guy, who takes his job seriously.....but I don't think he even realizes that when he sees these hybrids (half-assers), that they are hackjob failures, ticking like a moldy, rotting time-bomb. 

Sorry for the vent.

I just did a nice one, glass and Carrera, that I'm pretty proud of.
Can't wait to post it.
Something to offer other than bitching......

Here is what it looked like......
wonder who installed it?


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Job security following behind the other guy. But it was a good vent, anyway.


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