# Some help with new guy going out my own, Bidding/estimating.



## The Terra Firma (Sep 8, 2011)

So the time has come to poop or get off the pot.I have worked on the road for too long, 6yr old now in school and I want to be home more. I have 13 years of dirt work expierance and have decided to look for my own work.
I have been a superintendant for 6 years. site forman, operator and laborer. (even all at the same time!) I have laid pipe from 1" to 60", dug foundations, backfill. I am EXPERT in Loaders, hoes, trac-hoes blade, Dozers, and scrapers. I have class A CDL with pup endorsement. have heavy haul expieriance everything from crushing plants to D-8 dozers on low boys. I have done everything dirt related. Read plans, modify plans, RFI's, Pioneer roads,Pioneer gravel pits, shoot grade, pull permits, manage subs, Manage MSHA and OSHA........all of it......but estimate and bid a job. 


I want to start small, I can have some work with a local modular home sales place, they want some estimates from me for pad sites. I KNOW i can do all the work, I just want to get the bidding right.

Any heads up will be much appreciated.


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Everything that I have learned about bidding has been thrown out the window thanks to lowballers.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

The Terra Firma said:


> I have...6yr old now in school and I want to be home more. I have...decided to look for my own work. Any heads up will be much appreciated.


You're under the very widespread misconception that you can have your cake and eat it to. No upstart small businessman (OK gals...or businesswoman) has MORE time to be home. It just doesn't work that way Hoss. Particularly in your line of work. It can't. Never has and never will. Despite what you might think now having your "own thing" requires more of the skin off your arse - not less. Earthmoving ain't homebuilding, bathroom remodeling or window installation.

There's plenty of good reasons to start your own dirtwork thing (well maybe not plenty but at least two) and wanting to be home more ain't one of them as long as there's rain; drought; freezing temps; blistering temps; customers with all their permits; customers in need of permits; machines that are running; machines that need fixing; good employees; employees who don't show up; bids that need figuring; bids that need refiguring; refigured bids that need re-refiguring; stuff that gets broke what ain't s'posed to get broke; etc. etc., etc. :thumbsup:


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## The Terra Firma (Sep 8, 2011)

PipeGuy said:


> You're under the very widespread misconception that you can have your cake and eat it to. No upstart small businessman (OK gals...or businesswoman) has MORE time to be home. It just doesn't work that way Hoss. Particularly in your line of work. It can't. Never has and never will. Despite what you might think now having your "own thing" requires more of the skin off your arse - not less. Earthmoving ain't homebuilding, bathroom remodeling or window installation.
> 
> There's plenty of good reasons to start your own dirtwork thing (well maybe not plenty but at least two) and wanting to be home more ain't one of them as long as there's rain; drought; freezing temps; blistering temps; customers with all their permits; customers in need of permits; machines that are running; machines that need fixing; good employees; employees who don't show up; bids that need figuring; bids that need refiguring; refigured bids that need re-refiguring; stuff that gets broke what ain't s'posed to get broke; etc. etc., etc. :thumbsup:


When i say be home more...i mean not 800 miles away and home once a month......other than that....thanks for your reply!:thumbsup:


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

Just remember with a production modular home company....once you do one job you probably can't up the price. Make sure its a number you can be happy with.....That is Pay you direct labor costs, fuel cost, liability insurance cost, work comp insurance cost, licensing fees, equipment maintenance, truck maintenance, legal fees, bookkeeping expense, Pay taxes, and STILL HAVE SOME MONEY LEFT OVER TO LIVE ON!!! 

It can be very rewarding owning your own company, but your work days become being up hours before workers, working all day long, and then working in the office at night. It is not for everyone, but do it if you are willing to eat and breath it. 

My two favorite quotes on business are

"a good employee works hard everyday for 8 hours so that one day they can become the boss and work hard for 12 hours". 

"Running a non-profit is easy, my construction company has been doing that for years"


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## CatD8T (Apr 26, 2011)

Know your "known costs" well, very well; whether direct or indirect. Then you have to figure your unknowns. The first problem you will have is coming up with an overhead amount, since you have no historical information to come up with. However, you can get your insurances, book keeping and other costs nailed down. 

Use rental rates from equipment companies as your basis for your internal rates; since again, no historical data.

Most* construction companies have an overhead ranging from 6% to 17%, pending on how they classify their internals. But many smaller guys I know go with 10%, and this is probably good for covering you. Then, to get work, you let that 10% cover your margin for error since it should be more than enough to cover actual overhead.

The main problem I have found in training field guys to estimate is covering the unknowns. Example:

You have 2000 LF of waterline to install. So you think to yourself, I can install 500 LF per day. But can your really only include 4 days of crew labor? Probably not, there is start-up, cleanup, delays, material unloading, etc. But most field guys don't include these because there is not a bid line item for them. You have to learn, over time, how much risk there is with each bid item.

There are independent services that will perform a take-off for you and give you a suggested bid unit. This works well for a double check and can reduce your risk in a project. Unless your pockets are deep, you don't want to make a large error up front.

Good Luck!!! :thumbsup:


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

PipeGuy make a good point. So to the hat's you already wear add to it: 

Salesmen
Estimator
Accounts Payable
Accounts Receivable
President/General Manager
Office Manager
IT Manager
Shop Foreman
Mechanic

Even if each of those roles only took 2hrs a week, that's almost 1/2 of your 40 hr work week.

Start up is a tough road to hoe, then in our line of work you still got to get out and hoe the road. 

Not to discourage, but it's a huge time investment, so don't kid yourself thinking you'll have more time!


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## naavi (Nov 3, 2011)

CatD8T said:


> The main problem I have found in training field guys to estimate is covering the unknowns. Example:
> 
> You have 2000 LF of waterline to install. So you think to yourself, I can install 500 LF per day. But can your really only include 4 days of crew labor? Probably not, there is start-up, cleanup, delays, material unloading, etc. But most field guys don't include these because there is not a bid line item for them. You have to learn, over time, how much risk there is with each bid item.
> 
> ...


Hello CatD8T,
As per my knowledge as an electrical estimator, i think material unloading cost and other costs are included in estimates as Installation and commissioning costs, suppose a transformer has to be installed then its unloading cost is included in installation costs. At least it happens in my trade, i have not much knowledge about your field.


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## CatD8T (Apr 26, 2011)

naavi said:


> Hello CatD8T,
> As per my knowledge as an electrical estimator, i think material unloading cost and other costs are included in estimates as Installation and commissioning costs, suppose a transformer has to be installed then its unloading cost is included in installation costs. At least it happens in my trade, i have not much knowledge about your field.


Agreed, but my point being, I have found that field personnel do not compensate for the indirect items related to their bid item. Their bid may read:

8" CL52 D.I.P. Waterline for 2000 LF @ $50.00 per LF. But they need to include these other costs in this line item, not just the actual install of the waterline.


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## SlumberJack (Jun 18, 2009)

Terra Firma; I'm head estimator for a civil/structural contractor servicing the NYC Metro and surrounding areas and the projects that come across my desk are typical by no means... I get everything from redeveloping tight lots between sky scrapers to complete site development from inception of wooded areas of several dozen acres, road work, and most everything in between, including both public and private work. You name it I've probably estimated/bid it.

My point is we may be able to help each other greatly... I've been estimating (from behind a desk) for over 10 years and can without a shadow of a doubt offer you loads of advice, insight, and information on successful, competitive, and thorough bidding/estimating to help you get off the ground and even continue after... what I lack is where you are likely more than qualified. I don't have the field experience you have, which any good estimator will tell you, is something that greatly helps (and solidifies) any estimate. Without the experience streamlined from the field, an estimate is near useless... some estimators rely on figures from national averages and such but the nature of bidding in today's market is so fierce and competitive that all the subtle variables of a project must be considered. Generic averages and unit prices will not win you bids.

While I don't have all the field experience you do, I do have a decade of estimating and consulting practice working along side with some of the best in the business who have given me a wealth of knowledge in order to make it to where I am. I make a great living estimating behind a desk and am by no means a "textbook" estimator - in other words, I didn't learn out of a textbook... everything I practice has been contributed from actual/real project data.

So the bottomline is send me a private message or just reply here with any questions you have...hopefully we can connect and contact eachother when we have any questions...I'm sure we can be a great asset to each other.


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## KnottyWoodwork (May 23, 2010)

As a guy who travelled the country for years, I COMPLETELY understand the "home more" that you're referring to. Rolling out of your own bed at 4am is easy compared to that hotel bed... Coming home at night, whether it be 6pm, midnight, or anywhere between; will beat the goodnight phone call hands down :thumbsup:


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

bestimator, you want/need the field experience? follow pipeguy around for a couple of years. he's doing both estimating and field work. there's a wealth of information you can glean from him.


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## SlumberJack (Jun 18, 2009)

dayexco said:


> bestimator, you want/need the field experience? follow pipeguy around for a couple of years. he's doing both estimating and field work. there's a wealth of information you can glean from him.


Thanks for the tip; much appreciated!


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

dayexco said:


> bestimator, you want/need the field experience? follow pipeguy around for a couple of years. he's doing both estimating and field work. there's a wealth of information you can glean from him.


How can you do that? The man is like a ghost. He only appears at certain times of the year. :whistling


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

I know pretty much diddly squat about excavating but I do know about going from running other people's operations to running your own. One of the most important factors in estimating it is to be realistic in what you can accomplish with the tools and labor that you have. You can clobber the big companies on price for small jobs but you'll lose if you try to match their price on big jobs. 

I went from being the top guy on the floor of a union cabinet shop to working on my own and my first job, after all my expenses, netted me about $5 an hour. My mistake was thinking that I could complete work in a similar quality and time frame even though I didn't have all of the resources available to me. It wasn't hubris on my part so much as a massive oversight with a fair bit of the "I need money" glasses on. Of course I couldn't do it in the same amount of time as when I had a full shop with a $50k spray booth.


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## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

Do you own any equipment? You we need some to start. Good credit is a must.


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