# How do you all handle the tire kickers?



## mrramsey1969 (Jul 23, 2019)

Just curious what everyone else is doing. You know the drill, set an appointment with a potential client, measure up the project, get a list of all of their wants and needs, and when you ask what their budget is for the project you get the "no idea" response. I explain my position to my clients that it doesn't do either party any good to present a $50k kitchen reno if I they only have a $20k budget. One recent estimate I recall after submitting it to a client was the reply via email that said "what is it with you contractors" lol. 

Most usually do have a budget in mind and I explain to them that the first thing I do is to estimate the project at 15% less than the budget or make sure they have cash on hand for contingencies. Then there are some that wont give a budget because they think we're all crooks. The smaller projects aren't too much of an issue but on more complex jobs there's quite a bit of work that goes into the estimate. I have walked away from a few that I didn't get a good feeling from the client.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Tire kickers? Kick 'em to the curb...


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

If you don't tell me your budget in the first phone call, I ain't comin'. What a way to waste time.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

If they aren't in the position to talk budget (i.e. - I have no idea) simply put it in language they can understand...

*"Mrs. Customer, we all buy things and most people generally have an idea of what they can afford when considering purchasing a product or service. It's the basis for any realistic approach to a project such as this (I'll use kitchens in your example)...*​​*Just like when people buy cars, different budget levels will yield you different levels of cars depending on the level of quality and options you choose... in this case with your kitchen, there are some who are looking for a no-frills basic kitchen with not a lot of changes in their current setup, just a newer version and they rely on apartment grade or builder grade cabinets and that usually will run you in the range of $X to $X (fill-in your relevant numbers for your market)... then you have people who have been looking at doing this project for some time, have specific ideas of what they want, and want more of the bells and whistles and storage and convenience options that come with higher level semi-custom to custom cabinetry which will generally put them in a range of $X to $X.... and then there are those for whom budget is not a concern, and they want what they want, and that finds them at $X (higher end of last pricing range) on up... now, in each budget range there is flexibility, but where do you think your budget and wants fit most comfortably?"*​
And then be quiet until they answer... once they do, all it's a matter of doing at that point is zeroing in on their specific project details and costs... if they still can't give you a range? Yeah... they're a tire-kicker and kick 'em to the curb...


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

"Hello. So tell me what you want to do? Why? How long have you been thinking about this? Who else is/was involved? Do you plan on financing or not, and what range have you planned on allocating/contributing to this project?... Why? I need to know if we're both on the same page to proceed to more detailed numbers...we go by the numbers, nothing more, nothing less...."


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I couldn’t care less what someone’s budget is.

I can ballpark it pretty close, even give them a range. 

I don’t do design work for free.

If the ballpark is something they can work with, then they can either hire their own designer, or hire me to do the design work.

Period.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I have no issue giving an estimate. That’s all it is though. An estimate.

I expect one from my mechanic.

Design work is something completely different.

Just like I don’t expect a diagnostic or repair instructions from my mechanic, but I do expect a ballpark number.

Maybe a tire kicker is just that, but how else are they going to know if they can afford what they want.

Our job is to be sure we get paid for what is worth getting paid for. And design work and material takeoffs are worth getting paid for. 👍


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Some folks have no idea how much things cost, and when the whim to do some improvement strikes them, they think nothing of asking contractors for free visits and estimates, and many even expect some sort of written estimate without sharing their spending intentions. Those are the folks we're talking about.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

There are no free estimates; there is only an even exchange of information. You want to know how much things cost and I want to know how much money you can spend. You show me yours; I'll show you mine.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

I'm fortunate that most of my work is Sq ft or Lin ft priced so it don't take a long time to give a ballpark. I write many estimates with just a phone call & exchange a few pictures. Most of the time, I don't even show up in person to give a final # till I've qualified that I'm not wasting my time


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## Fishindude (Aug 15, 2017)

Learning to prequalify prospects is a very important part of the business. Time is money, and you can't spend a bunch of time chasing dead end leads.

Generally after doing an initial walk through, you should have a decent idea of the cost range for the project, so share that with the client. _This looks to me like a project that should range somewhere between $100,000 & $150,000. Is this a price range you were expecting and can handle? _
If yes .... _So, If I were to measure things up get a couple subs involved, price things out, and come back to you next week with a written scope of work, a conceptual drawing and a price that fell within this range, would you be prepared to sign the proposal and place an order?_
If no, then you need to find out why. If they are wanting to get competitive bids, need to get a loan approved, etc. you need to find out now. If it's a bidding thing, try to figure out what their strategy is and decide if you want to risk your time and effort going down that road. If it's money or something else, find out what they are thinking and again decide if they are worth continuing to work with. 
In many cases, if the answer is no at this time, you can just tell them .... _Well, I've given you a price range, if you get serious and want to try to get this project going, just give me call and I'll be happy to put the time in to firm up the numbers if you are ready to work with us and make a deal._


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> There are no free estimates; there is only an even exchange of information. You want to know how much things cost and I want to know how much money you can spend. You show me yours; I'll show you mine.


Took my skid steer into the CAT dealer.

Told him what was wrong. He told me a couple things it could be; Turbo, head gasket, injectors.

I asked him, "Worst case scenario, head gasket, whats this going to run me? Are we talking 3K, or 10K?" I need to know if this is even worth fixing, or if I should buy a new one.

He told me a ball park number, I told him "go ahead and do it".  

Had he come back with, "Well, how much you looking to spend to get this machine running?" I would have laughed in his face and he would never get a bit of business from me.

I'm not a mechanic, I have no idea what it takes to replace a head gasket. He does, that's his job to tell _me._

Same thing, I don't expect an average homeowner to know what a bathroom remodel costs. I can ballpark it in 15 minutes, and probably be +/- 10%.

Clients budget is absolutely irrelevant to me. It's probably way out of whack on the low side anyway, and it's my job to educate them.

I would never insult a customer by asking them how much they are looking to spend.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I'll give an estimate only on jobs I want. I've never asked anyone how much they have to spend. Works for me. 

With that said chances are they wouldn't live around here if they didn't have money. 


Mike.
*___*


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Calidecks said:


> I'll give an estimate only on jobs I want. I've never asked anyone how much they have to spend. Works for me.
> 
> With that said chances are they wouldn't live around here if they didn't have money.
> 
> ...


So you spend time estimating jobs that may exist only in the dreams of your potential customers?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> So you spend time estimating jobs that may exist only in the dreams of your potential customers?


I make their dreams a reality. Asking them what they want or how much they have to spend on the phone is not how I roll. What I offer needs an in person meeting. I guess if I was changing a sink that might be different. 

They could have a budget for 10k but after I leave them, they could easily sign for 20k. My closing rate is exactly where I want it. 


Mike.
*___*


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## G&Co. (Jul 29, 2020)

7D41:
I mostly agree with you, but your analogy is not valid in my opinion because:
1. Most of us do projects that are discretionary, so the client can choose a budget. Your skid steer is not discretionary in the least.
2. Apples to apples. Fixing the skid steer is an identical operation in terms of parts and labor no matter where you have it done, within reason. Most dealers are operating from the same pricing/hours software, etc. So your cost will be roughly the same between dealers. When somebody asks "how much to remodel my kitchen", it could mean anything. So 2 estimates could be in a 2 to 1 ratio or more, even after the client tells you that the type of cabinets they want is "nice but not too expensive". And we don't have CAT to hold us "remodeling dealers" to any uniform standards.

It's true that the average HO doesn't know what a bathroom remodel costs. But you can show them the numbers in the Cost vs. Value statistics and they can get a very good idea of what people are actually paying. 

Now let's try a different scenario. You walk into a CAT dealer and say, gee, I want a machine that can move some dirt. I'm not sure how much dirt, how often or when/if I'm going to buy it. And I don't know how much I want to spend. What will the dealer say?


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## baughsten (Apr 17, 2021)

mrramsey1969 said:


> Just curious what everyone else is doing. You know the drill, set an appointment with a potential client, measure up the project, get a list of all of their wants and needs, and when you ask what their budget is for the project you get the "no idea" response. I explain my position to my clients that it doesn't do either party any good to present a $50k kitchen reno if I they only have a $20k budget. One recent estimate I recall after submitting it to a client was the reply via email that said "what is it with you contractors" lol.
> 
> Most usually do have a budget in mind and I explain to them that the first thing I do is to estimate the project at 15% less than the budget or make sure they have cash on hand for contingencies. Then there are some that wont give a budget because they think we're all crooks. The smaller projects aren't too much of an issue but on more complex jobs there's quite a bit of work that goes into the estimate. I have walked away from a few that I didn't get a good feeling from the client.


I find that most clients believe that stating a budget will give the contractor a license to steal and move the price to the budget amount. The problem with that thinking is that most customers severely "under-estimate" the true cost of their project.
I used to offer an "estimate without obligation". That way I could meet the customer for "short" visit, engage in a friendly conversation and begin to uncover hidden motivation and desires. Win/win or no deal. Didn't always work, but it kept the stress to a managable level..


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

baughsten said:


> *I find that most clients believe that stating a budget will give the contractor a license to steal* and move the price to the budget amount. The problem with that thinking is that most customers severely "under-estimate" the true cost of their project.
> I used to offer an "estimate without obligation". That way I could meet the customer for "short" visit, engage in a friendly conversation and begin to uncover hidden motivation and desires. Win/win or no deal. Didn't always work, but it kept the stress to a managable level..


Working with price ranges and different expectation levels of quality (see post #4) within those ranges usually eliminates that concern and they are generally willing to give you a range to get the level of quality they want, as opposed to a dedicated figure at first... once you have a range, it's just a matter of matching what they want within that range... if they want a level that's beyond the range they indicated, they usually understand it's going to come at an additional cost to get there...


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## Tree doctor (8 mo ago)

I am an ISA Certified Arborist and the Tirekickers call with a request for a tree removal
quote and expect an appointment so they can walk me around their yard for an hour asking me questions about every Tree and shrub in their yard and how they can control pests eating their trees without hiring me.

I very rarely set appointments and email all my bids. I hate talking about price when I evaluate a tree onsite.

A tree removal quote is very straightforward and lets face it they are looking for the lowest price. I do my best to avoid meeting with these potential customers and just send the quote electronically. I often prescreen by imposing minimum trip charges. I hate sales and customer service for the most part. Its a good thing I'm the boss and pick my clients very carefully. The luxury of being a small business.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

I would never do business with someone that wanted to know my budget right off the bat. The only time I've asked about a budget is when I give them an estimate and they tell me it's more than they can afford. That said, virtually every one of my clients has at least $15K tied up in designs before they ever speak to me.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I usually ballpark it and ballpark it high. I don't work with people that want to save 35 bucks here, or 300 bucks if we spend three weeks second guessing fixtures or tile choices. If they want to save thousands, I can work with that, but it isn't coming out of my pocket. That took me years to learn. And usually, we end up right at the high end by the time we are done.

That part being said, I do expect to spend weeks picking tile, countertops and the various bits and bobs. It is part of the gig, especially now during supplymageddon. A good budget allows a lot more freedom.

I know what a 10,000 dollar bathroom gets you, and I know what a 30,000 dollar bathroom gets you. Same with a kitchen or a basic home remodel. I am doing one now that I ballparked around 85,000. If they are comfortable with that, then we move forward. It looks like it will be closer to 65,000. She is getting the top end countertops and fixtures she wanted. And she is under our initial budget. That isn't accidental. 

Those aren't actual numbers, but you get the idea.

If I had said we will be at 65,000 dollars and then we start bumping into the 60,000 dollar range, it starts feeling cramped. Then we always end up repicking fixtures, repicking tile, repicking shower surrounds, etc.

I tend to just be frank and honest. Most folks don't have any clue what it will cost. I just tell them that in order to move forward, they need to be prepared to spend at least this much. It also keeps me from having to worry about nickle and diming my end as well. I do "budget" remodels, and simple shower surround replacements, but I prefer not to. 

I try and stay in the deepish end of the pool.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I sell them new tires.


Mike.
*___*


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

The reason you are getting a certain few who think you are a crook is because when you simply ask 'what is your budget?' your client is thinking to themselves 'If I tell him 30k and then if the project is worth 20k, he will charge me 30k anyway'. So they think you are price gouging 10k. Remember the movie Vacation when Chevi Chase crashes his car then asks how much it will cost to fix, and the mechanic says 'how much you got?'. That's what's happening. When you're really not trying to scam, you are just trying to get a budget so you can price your job accordingly. 

Use a different approach, there are several ways you can present price. You need to do it in a way that will build up trust with your client. You can say:
'Before we go any further we need to establish a budget, I can do it one of two ways, I can put everything you want together in a bid and show it to you. Or you can give me a price and I can design the remodel to fit that price.'
Or you can say:
'I think it will cost between 40 to 45k, we'll need to start with a design contract so I can give you a firm bid'
I just say whatever feels natural at the time. I find if I try and say what other people say in sales then I fail miserably, but if I tell them what I honestly think then they can sense it and I've built up trust with them. 

Try keeping a journal, when you think you've lost a sale, write down what you said and what you think you could have done different to make the sale. It takes some time, but eventually we all find a technique that works for us.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Btw I found the video clip of what I was talking about, this is how clients see contractors.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

If you’ve been doing it long enough, it gets easy to ballpark numbers.

I can tell someone who wants a full gut remodel in a bathroom that they are looking at a minimum of $20k, for example. I can guarantee its not gonna go lower than that. 

You want tile, steam showers, heated floors, etc etc. could go as high as high as $50k.

I dont care what their budget is. I gave you a range, you pick. 👍

They come back and say they want a tub with tile surround instead of a one-piece, and tile floors, and I can tell them it’ll add 10 and 15k , depending on their tile choice. That’ll get them tile at about $4/sf.

Didn’t spend more than 15 minutes on a project I may or may not get, I don’t need to make them uncomfortable asking about their budget, and they got a realistic idea of what a bathroom remodel costs. And it ain’t $8,000 anymore. 😳 Maybe they didn’t know that.


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## russellremodel (Apr 24, 2015)

Now days I tell the potential customer that I will give them a general idea of cost. If the price was somewhere in the price range they were thinking, the we can agree and proceed to do a proper estimate.
If you know that their project would come in around 10 grand and in their heads they were budgeting 2 grand, no need to waste any more of your time.


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