# Can't read a tape measure; & basic fractions / decimals primer?



## Panzer5

I've got a 'good spare pair of hands' working for me that the local labor hall sent over. He's a very good worker & eager to learn. 

Unfortunately, he can't read a tape and doesn't get it when I switch back & forth between fractions & decimals (I'll switch back and forth between saying "Forty three and one-half" and "Forty three point five" without warning). He certainly can't figure out (yet) what the total length would be if one side measures 47.5 in. and the other measures 47 3/4 in. (Don't get me started on 8ths / 16ths!) I've tried teaching him in the field, but need something for him to look at when I'm not trying to get work done.

*I'd like to print off a primer on reading a tape measure & maybe a refresher for him on basic math - like adding fractions and converting fractions to decimals - but can't find one I like on-line (too many video tutorials, not enough print). The guy doesn't have a computer, so I need something I can print off for him to read between jobs.*

You guys know of any basic books on carpentry that do a good job of explaining this?


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## Tom R

Sounds like he didn't pay enough attention in school, - - but you're sure not helping by throwing decimals around, - - I don't see where that's necessary at all.

Get him familiar with halfs, than quarters, then eighths, - - then just incorporate the sixteenths by the terms 'light' or 'heavy' . . .


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## Panzer5

Tom R said:


> ...- but you're sure not helping by throwing decimals around, - - I don't see where that's necessary at all.
> 
> . . .


Just my habit; I add decimals in my head faster than I do fractions. I'm certainly not the only carpenter who uses decimals:


John Carroll said:


> My technique is also different from the traditional approach espoused in most carpentry textbooks, which I've always found to be obscure and confusing. In rafter-length manuals and in booklets that come with rafter squares, dimensions are generally given in feet, inches and fractions of inches. *I use inches only and convert to decimals for my calculations*."


But you're right; *I'd be happy to start with if he could accurately read a tape & do the fractions bit.*


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## GrasshopperPete

Use Google to search :" How to read a tape measure" and you`ll have more primers, how to`s and videos than you can shake a stick at.


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## mics_54

forget a quicky primer. You are trying to teach basic math. Hire a tutor.

BTW...if he is the age to work for you and, skipped school or not, doesn't have a grasp of simple math, fractions and reading a tape measure...he may have a learning disability.


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## kuponoconstr

*fractions*

We had a high school senior working for us one summer, I was a little surprised when he couldn't read a tape measure but no big deal, takes practice to think in fractions. After a couple weeks and multiple tutorials, I'd call out a dimesion and he still couldn't find it on the tape, let along add or subtract fractions. We had to let him go.

Are they still teaching math in school these days? It seems like they skip that class and take meth instead.


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## WarnerConstInc.

Switch to metric, problem solved.


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## mickey69125

Had a guy once who couldn't read a tape either. He would call out "47 and 1,2,3, little marks". PITA but got used to it after a while.


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## Kgmz

It may not be that he has a problem with decimal or fractions, it may be he just can't figure out fast enough where 54 7/16" is on the tape. It is probably not a problem of understanding what the number means, just locating it on the tape quickly.

And that just takes practice, we all may be able to see 54 7/16" on a tape at a glance. But some people take awhile to understand that 7/16" is 1 little line under the half inch mark. When my wife first started working for me she had a problem with this. And she is a very bright well educated German girl, if she wasn't I wouldn't have married her. She had a problem visualizing the fraction on the tape for whatever reason. And I bought her a tape that actually said 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", etc at the hash marks on the tape in the beginning. After awhile she got the hang of it and can now use a standard Stanley tape, etc. What is funny is she never had a problem when we use a engineers 10ths scale, must be more like metric for her.


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## PA woodbutcher

I agree you are confusing him with the decimals, but here you go


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## dave_dj1

send him back to the labor hall and tell them unless there is a shovel involved, he should sit out!
WTF , send someone to be a helper that can't read a tape?? Short his pay and when he asks why, tell him it's correct, he will just have to figure it out.


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## PA woodbutcher

dave_dj1 said:


> send him back to the labor hall and tell them unless there is a shovel involved, he should sit out!
> WTF , send someone to be a helper that can't read a tape?? Short his pay and when he asks why, tell him it's correct, he will just have to figure it out.


Why would you be a dick if he's a good worker and willing to learn? Everyone learns something new every day.


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## dave_dj1

I wouldn't be a dick, I would expect a competent worker when i requested one. Maybe if you had hired him long term with the knowledge that he didn't know how to read a tape and he in fact was a good worker and you saw potential then maybe keep him.


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## PA woodbutcher

If you ask for a laborer, chances are pretty good you'll get a laborer...If you want skills you better specify.

I grew up a carpenter son and was better at fractions in school than most of the honor students. My son in law is 23 and I've showed him how to read a tape a dozen times...Fruck em, he don't want to learn to read a tape, here's a shovel.:laughing:


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## PA woodbutcher

dave_dj1 said:


> I wouldn't be a dick, I would expect a competent worker when i requested one. Maybe if you had hired him long term with the knowledge that he didn't know how to read a tape and he in fact was a good worker and you saw potential then maybe keep him.


Sorry, being kind of a dick myself..crunching numbers, tis the season:whistling


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## slamminhammer

Maybe since you can do both decimals and fractions you should stick to fractions for both of you. If he wants to work and learn he is better than most!


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## Tom R

Maybe you can explain it to him in terms of a dollar.

A _half_ dollar is 50 cents or .5(0)

A _quarter_ is 25 cents or .25

An _eighth_ is 12 and a half cents or .125


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## cbreeze

Panzer5 said:


> I've got a 'good spare pair of hands' working for me that the local labor hall sent over. He's a very good worker & eager to learn.
> 
> Unfortunately, he can't read a tape and doesn't get it when I switch back & forth between fractions & decimals (I'll switch back and forth between saying "Forty three and one-half" and "Forty three point five" without warning). He certainly can't figure out (yet) what the total length would be if one side measures 47.5 in. and the other measures 47 3/4 in. (Don't get me started on 8ths / 16ths!) I've tried teaching him in the field, but need something for him to look at when I'm not trying to get work done.
> 
> *I'd like to print off a primer on reading a tape measure & maybe a refresher for him on basic math - like adding fractions and converting fractions to decimals - but can't find one I like on-line (too many video tutorials, not enough print). The guy doesn't have a computer, so I need something I can print off for him to read between jobs.*
> 
> You guys know of any basic books on carpentry that do a good job of explaining this?


He sounds like a young Mexican I hired 8 years ago. He was one of about 4 applicants that I was screening at the time and when I told him I had chosen another applicant with more experience he thanked me for interviewing him and then looked me in the eye and said "how you get experience if no one give you a chance?" I said your right and I hired him right then and there. He is still with me today and has a thirst for learning. It doesn't always come easy for him but he never gives up. He is a class A employee and his work ethic is incredible. I took a chance and trained a guy who couldn't read a tape when we first met and now there's not much he can't do. He's neat , clean, honest and the next best thing to showing up with a box of puppy dogs when working around kids. And he makes me money. 
I think I would back off on the fractions until later too.
If you look on line you will find some real basic stuff. Good luck I hope you make out as well as I did.
.


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## Railman

Tom R said:


> Maybe you can explain it to him in terms of a dollar.
> 
> A _half_ dollar is 50 cents or .5(0)
> 
> A _quarter_ is 25 cents or .25
> 
> An _eighth_ is 12 and a half cents or .125


I started to reply with this method earlier today!:thumbsup:
It helps to be able to relate to something you deal with daily.

If you really want to teach him though, stick to one standard for a while. Learning two is just complicating things.

We use both around our shop daily also. 
I print out a simple conversion chart on every job spread sheet worksheets, so that there is always a reference available. Once the basics are familiar, it's simple addition to go from one to the other. 

If you memorize these he good to go:
1/8 = .125, 1/4 = .25, 3/8 = .375 , 1/2 = .5, 5/8 .625, 3/4 = .75, 7/8 = .875 
From there you just add, or sutract .06 to get nearest 1/16 dims 
ex:
13/16 = 3/4 + 1/16 , so .75 +.06 = .81" 
5/16 = 1/4 + 1/16, so .25 + .06 = .31"

Also helpfull is that:
1/32" = .032" 
1/16 = .06
3/8 = .38

Now that I've muddied the waters, I'm gone!
Joe


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## Cletus

Hand out some small objects to practice on and have him log his results. Grade him and then reward him for his efforts. If he is willing to learn, don't give up on him.

Skip the decimals for now.


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## antonioooooooo

Get him a frickin tape with the eights and sixteenths labelled right on the tape!!!


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## Kgmz

Found the tape I mentioned in my earlier post and took a couple of pics. Can't remember what brand it is though.


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## nailkiller1

Do not have him use the tape with the measurements
This is temporary

I make a giant inch
Day one halves and quarters
Day two add eighths if ready
Day three sixteenths
adjust accordingly
You are just splitting each measurement in half to achieve next fraction
(doubling the size of the lower number)

Do not try to do this all at once
a little every day 
Tell him to work on it at night 
If he is a hard worker like you say in a couple days he will grasp the concept

A good hard worker is hard to find
Anyone can learn to read a tape

Hope this makes sense


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## JKBARR127

i think for many, switching from decimals to fractions is difficult unless they have used both from a relatively early age. I learned decimals from inputting into auto cad for hours at a time when i was younger. I am convinced without that i would not be able to rattle off decimals as fat as i do. If your laborer is having problems, stick with one or the other. I would say fractions are probably easier when dealing with a tape. if he is willing to learn he will. As a mentor, if you don't mind calling yourself that, u just need to find a way to teach him in a way he can understand. Its so easy to get angry when something that comes so easy to us seems so alien to another.
Good luck


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## Tom R

Can't somebody invent a 'measurement-prompt' talking tape?? :laughing:


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## gregj

Use this and make some homework for him:
http://themathworksheetsite.com/read_tape.html

You could even make 16 flash cards covering every 1/16th interval and give them to him to study at night. Seems like everyone can learn from flash cards.


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## galla35

I agree id work on 1/4s 1/8s and 1/16s and then after he is solid with those work on decimals


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## naptown CR

At what point do you introduce the various shades of p hairs?


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## JKBARR127

teach him in cu-t hairs. i bet he could relate to that haha.


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## Panzer5

I still haven't found a tape that measures in RCH increments... :whistling I just know them from years of practice - which is I guess the only way you learn!:thumbsup:

@ PA Woodbutcher - thanks for the conversion chart. I'll hand that off to him with a worksheet and the picture of the tape KGMZ supplied. I think that will help.

FWIW - I think a guy who wants to learn & works hard is worth the effort.


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## Tom R

Panzer5 said:


> FWIW - I think a guy who wants to learn & works hard is worth the effort.



I couldn't agree more . . . :thumbsup:


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## CStanford

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Switch to metric, problem solved.


Yup.


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## doncando

Tom R said:


> Sounds like he didn't pay enough attention in school, - - but you're sure not helping by throwing decimals around, - - I don't see where that's necessary at all.
> 
> Get him familiar with halfs, than quarters, then eighths, - - then just incorporate the sixteenths by the terms 'light' or 'heavy' . . .


I thought "light" and "heavy" referred to 32nd's since 16th's are already marked on the tape measure. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd like to follow convention.


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## Framer53

doncando said:


> I thought "light" and "heavy" referred to 32nd's since 16th's are already marked on the tape measure. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd like to follow convention.


Are you framing or finishing? That is the difference. In fact in framing, the 1/8's are the heavy or light!


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## Tom R

doncando said:


> I thought "light" and "heavy" referred to 32nd's since 16th's are already marked on the tape measure. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd like to follow convention.



Pretty much like Framer53 says, - - usually boils down to if your a finisher or a framer, - - and I do it your way, - - (32's on a job site, but 64ths in the shop) - - but I'm taking into consideration this guys already having numerical problems.

Main thing is to be on the same page with your co-workers . . .


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## PA woodbutcher

Panzer5 said:


> I still haven't found a tape that measures in RCH increments... :whistling I just know them from years of practice - which is I guess the only way you learn!:thumbsup:
> 
> @ PA Woodbutcher - thanks for the conversion chart. I'll hand that off to him with a worksheet and the picture of the tape KGMZ supplied. I think that will help.
> 
> FWIW - I think a guy who wants to learn & works hard is worth the effort.


Actually you can thank either Loneframer or Wallmaxx. I snaggled it form one of them a couple of years ago. It's actually from a framers cheat sheet, or a least that':laughing:s how I label it.


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## PA woodbutcher

Kgmz said:


> Found the tape I mentioned in my earlier post and took a couple of pics. Can't remember what brand it is though.


Your kidding right? Tis better to teach a man to fish and all that good stuff.

Besides my eyes are getting old and there enough stuff on the tape. I work better using the1/16th heavy or light instead of the 32s. To many little lines and my eyes have a hard time separating them. Since I do the majority of my own cutting I probably come closer to 64ths using the heavy/light system.


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## Panzer5

Thanks for the cheat sheet!:thumbsup:


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## Tinstaafl

PA woodbutcher said:


> I work better using the1/16th heavy or light instead of the 32s. To many little lines and my eyes have a hard time separating them. Since I do the majority of my own cutting I probably come closer to 64ths using the heavy/light system.


"strong" and "shy" are for 16ths around here; "heavy" and "light" are 32nds.

I get to 64ths with "strong-heavy-strong." :laughing:


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## ApgarNJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CA_Ch0mYRI

Just show him this guy! LMFAO!!!!!


omg. i get half way through that video and i'm laughing so hard, i'm crying! haha Tim Jones is a TOOL!


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## sancho

Start taking him to lunch and buy him a Pizza. First lunch have the pizza cut the pizza in halfs. Next into quarters, next time into eigths. Then after each visit to the pizza place show him on a tape what he just had. 1" is a whole pizza. then 1/2" is the half pizza and so on. Some folks learn through their stomach..I know I do :>D


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## ApgarNJ

i'd like to see the guy's look on his face when you ask him to slice the pizza 16 or 32 times, 64, he might throw you out. hahhaha


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## DKC94

Keep him on the dumb end of the tape. Sorry, that isn't very helpful but I have used that line with friends that are not in the construction industry and they get a good laugh out of it. Some people just have a very difficult time with reading a tape measure. For most of us it is elementary, and others just never seem to grasp it. I don't have any good info for you, but if he is a good hustler I would give him some time. If it gets to the point where he is a liability and isn't showing any improvement, you may have to cut him loose and get someone else. Goodluck.


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## JT Wood

If you ask me, If he can't figure out a tape, he's in the wrong industry.

seriously 

I can see in the flurry of a jobsite that a guy may get flustered.
But to be unable to grasp the concept of a tape measure is weak.

If he is slow but accurate that's another thing.


My advice ( and how I learned )




Tell him to do everything in 16'ths

1/16
2/16
3/16
4/16 Etc.


After 2 or 3 days ask him to reduce all fractions to the lowest possible whole number

1/16 -cannot be divided 
2/16= can be reduced to 1/8 ............. 2/16" >1/8"
3/16 Can not be divided
4/16 = Can be reduced to 1/4............ 4/16" > 2/8" >1/4" 
5/16 can not be divided
6/16 Can be reduced to 3/8 ................ 6/16"> 3/8"
7/16 can not be divided
8/16 Can be reduced to 1/2.................8/16"> 4/8" >2/4" >1/2"



Etc

Tell him to always try to reduce the fraction by half until it can no longer divide by 2
:thumbsup:


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## john5mt

I do agree that the easiest way to learn and communicate on the jobsite is in 16ths anyway (then at least he can count the hash marks till he arrives at the right measurement till he gets the hang of things)

ie 10 7/8 is 10 and 14

the you dont have the conversations oh i thought you said 5/16's not 5/8's

Do realize a majority of high school graduates are having trouble reading these days. Lots of on the job schooling to happen in the future i fear.


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## CARPENTERDON

> Dave dj1 wrote: *"send him back to the labor hall and tell them unless there is a shovel involved, he should sit out! WTF , send someone to be a helper that can't read a tape?? Short his pay and when he asks why, tell him it's correct, he will just have to figure it out.*


Personally, I think that is a pretty poor attitude! We ALL started out just like this guy. Some people take longer to understand a tape rule than others.

I bought a couple of Lufkin fractional read tapes. They really work great for teaching beginners. In no time my novice newbies graduate to a Stanley regular tape rule.

They don't know math because the public education system sucks! And if we (the experienced) don't give the inexperienced a chance, how do they ever or when will they ever learn??

One thing that I like about novice newbies is that I get to train them in the way I do things and I don't have to try and fix bad habits they learned elsewhere!


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## Willie T

CARPENTERDON said:


> Personally, I think that is a pretty poor attitude! We ALL started out just like this guy. Some people take longer to understand a tape rule than others.
> 
> I bought a couple of Lufkin fractional read tapes. They really work great for teaching beginners. In no time my novice newbies graduate to a Stanley regular tape rule.
> 
> They *doin't* know math because the public education system sucks! :clap: :whistling *(Yeah it sure do.)* And if we (the experienced) don't give the inexperienced a chance, how do they ever or when will they ever learn??
> 
> One thing that I like about novice newbies is that I get to train them in the way I do things and I don't have to try and fix bad habits they learned elsewhere!
> *(Yes, I know it was just a typo... but I simply couldn't resist.)*


I agree with your premise that the problem is poor education. But let's bring it home where it belongs. To the family.

Too many parents feel that the few dollars they spend in taxes (if, indeed, they contribute anything) abdicates them from the responsibility of teaching their own children.

Pay a teacher a few percentage points above what most of us would consider poverty level, then saddle them with classes of about 25 unruly urchins, most of whom were never taught discipline at home... and expect them to actually TEACH? That sound realistic to you?


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## john5mt

I agree with both of the above posts 

and add to that the strange social priorities given by school boards and the pressure to not fail anyone anymore.


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## CARPENTERDON

Home Depot carries the Lufkin Fractional Read, Self-Centering Measuring Tapes that I purchased.

Here is a picture:


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## PA woodbutcher

Willie T said:


> Pay a teacher a few percentage points above what most of us would consider poverty level, then saddle them with classes of about 25 unruly urchins, most of whom were never taught discipline at home... and expect them to actually TEACH? That sound realistic to you?


And then have to worry about the parents raising hell becaus etheir kid was waaay out of line to boot. Not me. Swinging a hammer is easy:laughing:


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## JT Wood

I think I'd toss that tape in the bin after 5 min. too many things going on.


A person of average intelligence should be able to understand how to work a tape in 1 day of use or less. Period.

School or not, Being taught fractions in school or on the jobsite is the same information.

1 inch is divided into 16 pieces.

Want a piece 4 5/8"?

Call down "4 inches and 10/16'ths WHICH IS 5/8'th"

If he gets it both ways for a day and he can't understand after A DAY OF THAT , kick him to the curb. Or find a nice sweeping job for him.

imho of course


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## TempestV

The tape with the fractions marked is probably the best way to go, for two reasons:
First of all, right off the bat, it helps in the short term because it makes it easy to understand, so you aren't waiting for him to count 16th marks.
Second, over time, he will probably get more used to looking at the marks instead of the labels, at which time he is ready for a regular tape.

Of course, you still need to teach him how to add fractions, do conversions and such, but if he is willing to learn, then it shouldn't be too difficult.


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## CARPENTERDON

> hughjazz wrote: *"A person of average intelligence should be able to understand how to work a tape in 1 day of use or less. Period."*


So, did you learn multiplication or fractions or geometry all in one day? After all. a person of average intelligence. . .:whistling



> hughjazz wrote: *"School or not, Being taught fractions in school or on the jobsite is the same information."*


The way they teach fractions in school is not the same as the way fractions are used in construction measurements.

Did you learn how to use and read a tape measure in one day?? Or did you have a nice sweeping job? :confused1:


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## TempestV

ApgarNJ said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CA_Ch0mYRI
> 
> Just show him this guy! LMFAO!!!!!
> 
> 
> omg. i get half way through that video and i'm laughing so hard, i'm crying! haha Tim Jones is a TOOL!


Good grief- that has to be about the worst explanation of how to use a tape I have ever seen. Showing him that would just confuse him all the more.


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## antonioooooooo

A few years ago when I graded I always thought to myself in math class...
When would I ever need to know the slope of something, or why do I care if something is square, and when would I ever add or subtract fractions. Now working in construction Im happy they taught us these formulas... 

One thing I have to say is not being able to read a tape, especially after this long, is straight up pathetic. If he has hussle, awesome, but hes going to slow you right down if hes not even sure if hes marking it right. I know I slow down if Im unsure of something. I feel like even when I have to sharpen my pencil, or I cant get my speed square out quick enough Im wasting valuable seconds. lol, sounds dumb but I swear it makes a difference...


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## JWilliams

When I first started working construction as a carpenters helper building highrises I couldnt read a tape either. I had a fractional tape measure. I used it for about a month and after that I bought a regular tape measure. It helped me alot after that it was a breeze and I didnt feel like such an idiot anymore.


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## JT Wood

CARPENTERDON said:


> So, did you learn multiplication or fractions or geometry all in one day? After all. a person of average intelligence. . .:whistling
> 
> 
> 
> The way they teach fractions in school is not the same as the way fractions are used in construction measurements.
> 
> Did you learn how to use and read a tape measure in one day?? Or did you have a nice sweeping job? :confused1:




No one taught me how to use a tape measure. Like I said, I'm not above average intelligence.

But seriously If I understand correctly, The person in question cannot translate a given number, say... 15 3/8" into a measurement on his tape.

I honestly think it's something that a normal person should be able to figure out in about 10 measurements or less. 

I'm not saying he should be fast in 10 measurements. But the giy should know HOW


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## Inner10

> The way they teach fractions in school is not the same as the way fractions are used in construction measurements.
> 
> Did you learn how to use and read a tape measure in one day?? Or did you have a nice sweeping job? :confused1:


They did when I was in school...

I remember every day getting a sheet of fractions to simplify and being timed to see how many we could do.


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## Willie T

As a person involved in education and teaching most of my life, I feel compelled to point out one thing we are overlooking.

Failure of the transfer of knowledge from one person to another is usually and largely due to a shortcoming of the teacher and their methods, not the student.

What I mean by this is that a great part of teaching is understanding how to present material in a variety of ways. Do you remember the most boring (and therefore, ineffective) teachers you had? Weren't they the ones who had "their way" of teaching? And by God it was the _right way_, so you'd better get squared away and LEARN!

You cannot really "teach" anyone anything. You, yourself, have to learn how to lead them to the threshold of their own understanding. Once you have discovered the pathway to that special, unique, individual's receptive doorway, the student will often happily and eagerly walk right in, mostly all by themselves. We have to know (often LEARN, ourselves) how to be effective guides.

But few of us are willing to objectively assess less-than-impressive learning as, more accurately, a failure on our parts to effectively present the material in a manner that the student can absorb. Try never to think "How come you can't get it"? Rather, consider "What am I missing that will be the golden key that unlocks this mystery for you"?

***********************

Just for kicks, take a gander at *This example* of some ways a couple of guys at MIT say people should learn complicated computer procedures. Would you call yourself (or anyone) 'stupid' for not getting this mess? Or would you question their delivery?


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## thom

Willie T said:


> Pay a teacher a few percentage points above what most of us would consider poverty level, then saddle them with classes of about 25 unruly urchins, most of whom were never taught discipline at home... and expect them to actually TEACH? That sound realistic to you?


Are you nuts? Where do you live?

Most of us work a 2000 hour year, teachers work a 1200 hour year. They get an hour of prep time in their 6 hour work day. Sure, beginner teachers may need to do homework, so do beginners in construction. 

In addition to working only 60% as many hours, they get much better benefits than most of the working world. I was a teacher back in the 1970's when pay was crap. A lot has changed since then. Today's teachers are a bunch of whiners who blame everyone but themselves for their incompetence.


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