# Lost W-9, now refusing to fill out another



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I split some jobs with a guy last year, he filled out a w-9 but I seemed to have misplace it.

Well, he and his wife filed already and he is refusing to give me his information, saying he'd screw himself because he didn't claim the income. 

Anybody ever have this happen?

I was on hold with the IRS for an hour and they won't take a fraud report by phone...seems dumb as chit.

Do I have any other options or am I going to have to play karma's assistant and give him every headache I can come up with? 

I'm sure i can find deductions to cover half of it ($30,000ish) but I am not one to take a screwing sitting down.


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## goneelkn (Jan 9, 2010)

If you were going to issue him a 1099, they were due Jan 31st. Don't know what you have to do for a late filing.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I tried getting his info before then. That was not the question.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Did you write the checks out to his business?


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

No, he operates under his name and carries liability insurance .


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

So he has a DBA or no?


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

He does not


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Then how would he have a Fed ID number or are you just looking for his social number?

I'd tell him its not your problem and you'll file it that way anyway.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

So he wants you to pay his income taxes?

You should have documented your attempts to collect his EIN and then mailed the 1099 without it and noted "refused to provide". You still should but now you're late.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I need his ssn, had it, lost it. I guess I'll jave to do what the irs said and fill out their stupid form. I will be sure to include pics i have of him working and copies of texts regarding work that i have.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

EthanB said:


> So he wants you to pay his income taxes?


Pretty much, and wants his wifes $5,000 earned income credit check


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Make sure to let him know you'll be doing it that way then.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I told him I'd report it anyway and that he was opening up his wife to conspiracy to commit fraud charges, sent him a screenshot of the consequences of evading tax, he wont respond.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Sent him this, he is not taking me seriously


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## Mr Knucklehead (May 31, 2014)

why don't you seek the services of a good accountant? the good ones are worth every dime they charge. I give power of attorney to mine and he handles everything, all my audits, etc.. 

There's no way I would run a business without a good accountant


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I am way way way to small for that


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## Mr Knucklehead (May 31, 2014)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I am way way way to small for that


A&E please don't kid yourself. Most guys here are small companies (me included) but I learned a big lesson in my first business venture. I lost a ton of money, set me back years. 

I make it my business to afford a good accountant. It's the only thing that makes me sleep at night. 

I do a lot of my own paper work and books to cut down on the accountants cost. He's always a phone call away, always get's back to my emails. I would be lost without him.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

My girlfriends uncle is a cpa, maybe i should see what services he can provide for me


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

A&E Exteriors said:


> My girlfriends uncle is a cpa, maybe i should see what services he can provide for me


I don't think you necessarily need his service for this issue, just 10 minutes of his time to give you advice.

As said above, you are more than likely leaving a ton of money on the table by not hiring a CPA regularly. Worst case, he pays for himself and you can let him handle BS like this in the future. And a good one will scold you losing that form better than we can.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

He is obligated to report all income weather or not he received a 1099 for it. Just because someone forgets or neglects to 1099 you doesn't give you a free pass.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

EricBrancard said:


> He is obligated to report all income weather or not he received a 1099 for it. Just because someone forgets or neglects to 1099 you doesn't give you a free pass.


He will wish he had when i am done with him


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

You still need to send him his copy of the new 1099 when you send the IRS their copy so it's not like it will be a big surprise. After that, it's his problem, not yours.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I am way way way to small for that


You are too small to not have an accountant


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

A&E Exteriors said:


> He will wish he had when i am done with him


Don't stress over this. I think maybe Eric? (too lazy to look) stated it right. Just because you don't get a 1099 doesn't mean you get a free pass on reporting income.

As Ethan said, just file it anyway. It's on him.

As Cali Decks said....you are too small for a CPA? No such thing.

My annual sales are less than 300K per year (a comfy staying place for me), and even when I was starting out they were sometimes less than 20K. I wouldn't open a lemonade stand without having a CPA.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

As my accountant told me yesterday, it doesn't really matter how expensive she is because in the end she will make me more money than I spend for her services.


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## Keeyter (Sep 18, 2010)

Sorry but I think it also needs to be said that A.) You need to get more organized with paperwork. They only person who has your best interest in mind is you and if you don't care well why should someone else. B.) Stop hiring and working with dritbags like this who don't have a DBA EIN or any other official credentialing. 

If you have GL Insurance you will end up paying for him as well. Time to man up and be a business owner.


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## Keeyter (Sep 18, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> As my accountant told me yesterday, it doesn't really matter how expensive she is because in the end she will make me more money than I spend for her services.


Can she make me any money fro what you spend on her? How did your boards go


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

Do your part you will be fine

I hope you have quickbooks or something like that, enter their info into the vendor section, I have all my subs info there including there tax numbers. So even if something gets misplaced or even forgot for that year I can still do all my paperwork.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

country_huck said:


> Do your part you will be fine
> 
> I hope you have quickbooks or something like that, enter their info into the vendor section, I have all my subs info there including there tax numbers. So even if something gets misplaced or even forgot for that year I can still do all my paperwork.


:thumbsup:

Not only that, but there is a field to enter the expiration dates of both GL and WC policies. As long as you enter that info, Quick Books will alert you when trying to make a payment to a sub whose policy has expired. 

Since I have subs that have been around forever, I go through this every year and just make a call or send an email that I can't issue the check until I have the new COI. It's on them at that point and it usually arrives via email the same day from their broker.

Before one single check is issued from me, all that info gets entered along with the other pertinent information including 1099 info.

Not picking on you A&E, rather trying to inspire you to get on a quick books type program.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> Not only that, but there is a field to enter the expiration dates of both GL and WC policies. As long as you enter that info, Quick Books will alert you when trying to make a payment to a sub whose policy has expired.
> 
> Since I have subs that have been around forever, I go through this every year and just make a call or send an email that I can't issue the check until I have the new COI. It's on them at that point and it usually arrives via email the same day from their broker.
> 
> ...


I am not feeling picked on in the least, i know i screwed up.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

I might be a little frustrated that you lost a form that had my personal social security number on it.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

what about workmans comp?sounds like someone needed it


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I'm like Ron, small one man band, less than 400k in revenue and have an accountant, and they will save you more than they cost you.

I also learned my lesson early on when I too lost a W-9. From then on all W-9, and for that matter all legal docs, get scanned and stored on a backup drive as well as on DropBox.


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## Mr Knucklehead (May 31, 2014)

All the talk about securely saving your documents just made me think of another reason to have an accountant. I scan all documents, e.g. time sheets, sub insurance certs, employee W-4's etc... everything is sent to my accountant and is backed up on his service. Plus I back up on two of my external hard-drives, a desktop, laptop, in the cloud and flash-drive. 

I never get hard copies from my accountant unless I need to sign something. Everything is in digital form. 

and slowsol made a good point, You need to safe guard peoples personal information. So the OP get's one demerit for misplacing that form. 


and in closing. The bottom line has already been mentioned but I'll repeat it. You must report your income regardless of any form issued to you. Do drug dealers receive W-9's from their suppliers? NO and they also don't report their income, but that doesn't give them a free pass. Income must be reported whether the money is legally or illegally obtained.

This all falls on the individual who put the money in their pocket. 

there must be more to it then the OP tells. If this guy thinks he can receive 30K in tax free income he must be a real moron to work with.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

goneelkn said:


> If you were going to issue him a 1099, they were due Jan 31st. Don't know what you have to do for a late filing.


He has a few more days, 1099's are February 16.

I believe he is looking for form W-9 not a 1099.

Tom


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## goneelkn (Jan 9, 2010)

tjbnwi said:


> He has a few more days, 1099's are February 16.
> 
> I believe he is looking for form W-9 not a 1099.
> 
> Tom


Recipients must be postmarked by Feb 2, 2015, IRS must be postmarked by February 16.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Asking cause I don't know...

Why not just submit without the SSN or EIN number, at least you filed it and let the IRS review and figure it out? I have to believe they will contact you, you will explain that you misplaced the guys info, since contacting him he is refusing to comply with giving you the info again, and they will contact him either directly or thru electronic means i.e. checking if the persons name and address you are saying you paid did in fact declare the income, and if not he will have some explaining to do.

I assume you have cancelled checks to backup the amount you are claiming to have paid him.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Yeah, I've. Got everything but the ssn


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

This is just going to be an exceptional PITA. I will find ways to return the favor though.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

A&E Exteriors said:


> This is just going to be an exceptional PITA. I will find ways to return the favor though.


It's really not though. It's on HIM. You're reporting the payments. They're going to be happy about that. The IRS, in my experience, isn't overly worried about collecting every little bit of paperwork before they will charge someone. It's when you don't want to pay that they start asking for your paperwork.


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## river rider (Dec 31, 2012)

My accountant told me on several occasions that not filing 1099's is only a fairly minor penalty from the IRS. It may be a reasonable option for you to not file that item of paperwork, and possibly pay that penalty if it boils out that way.

Failing to administratively file a form can be way different from actually messing with the #'s in calculating & paying your taxes. (you'd need to verify specifics of course) 

I would NOT fudge my taxes, and I would NOT pay tax on his $ If he omits #'s in HIS calcs, he is the one evading taxation. And HE is responsible for that. Hate to see him get away with scamming all of us citizens though. Taxes are the public's money, not government's money. I know it often doesn't feel that way.

I'm definitely not giving advice, just mentioning possible viewpoint that may be worth you exploring. Good to know consequences of possible actions or inactions. 

Gather & keep all documentation that shows you paid him the funds. Just in case it MAY be needed. Send him an email asking for w-9 info, his response might provide more documentation, -- even if in an indirect way. And it would document that you made efforts to gather & submit for IRS. 

Get with a CPA, at least for some amount of consulting on this specific matter of yours. You obviously need it. To sleep well if nothing else. And +1 on strong recommend using CPA in general too.

Good luck.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Not positive about this, but I think it's only a 50 dollar fine for each 1099 that was late or not sent.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> Not positive about this, but I think it's only a 50 dollar fine for each 1099 that was late or not sent.


I don't know what the rate is but the first year I used sub's I didn't send 1099. Had no idea I had to. Figured since all the checks were written to the company, it didn't matter.

When I was contacted about it they just wanted forms that I sent them. Maybe they let me get away with one but I don't remember paying a penalty.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I don't know what the rate is but the first year I used sub's I didn't send 1099. Had no idea I had to. Figured since all the checks were written to the company, it didn't matter.
> 
> When I was contacted about it they just wanted forms that I sent them. Maybe they let me get away with one but I don't remember paying a penalty.


I really believe the burden is mostly on the guy who owes.


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Yep my accountant tells me not ti worry about the 1099s with the number of subs I have. I assume you wrote the check to his company?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

jhark123 said:


> Yep my accountant tells me not ti worry about the 1099s with the number of subs I have. I assume you wrote the check to his company?


If he had he wouldn't need to send a 1099.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

jhark123 said:


> Yep my accountant tells me not ti worry about the 1099s with the number of subs I have. I assume you wrote the check to his company?


For me yes.

The original poster made it out to his personal name.

Edit - my understanding is they want your copy of the 1099 you gave whoever so they can make sure that person reported the income.


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## river rider (Dec 31, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> If he had he wouldn't need to send a 1099.


I believe this is inaccurate. 

1099's do NOT need to be sent to s corps & c corps. They DO need to go to sole props, LLC's. 

I verified this again w/my CPA 2 weeks ago.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

river rider said:


> I believe this is inaccurate.
> 
> 1099's do NOT need to be sent to s corps & c corps. They DO need to go to sole props, LLC's.
> 
> I verified this again w/my CPA 2 weeks ago.


No it's accurate. If he made it out to his company, i.e. corporation, he wouldn't have to send a 1099. Also don't have to send to an LLC's that is setup to be taxed like a corp.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

The problem may be that the irs will claim that the op mis-classified him as a sub. The irs could come back and say he should of been an employee. Slippery slope.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> The problem may be that the irs will claim that the op mis-classified him as a sub. The irs could come back and say he should of been an employee. Slippery slope.


Even then, the guy would still owe his side of the taxes.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> The problem may be that the irs will claim that the op mis-classified him as a sub. The irs could come back and say he should of been an employee. Slippery slope.


They'd have a hard time with that when the job/ money was split.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> No it's accurate. If he made it out to his company, i.e. corporation, he wouldn't have to send a 1099. Also don't have to send to an LLC's that is setup to be taxed like a corp.[/QUOT
> 
> hmm..


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tom Struble said:


> TNTSERVICES said:
> 
> 
> > No it's accurate. If he made it out to his company, i.e. corporation, he wouldn't have to send a 1099. Also don't have to send to an LLC's that is setup to be taxed like a corp.
> ...


hmm...what?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

LLC can elect how they are taxed. Either class "D" Disregarded entity, "C" corporation, or "P" partnership. This is entered on the W9. If they elect "C", you treat them as a corporation and do not have to send a 1099.


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## river rider (Dec 31, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> The problem may be that the irs will claim that the op mis-classified him as a sub. The irs could come back and say he should of been an employee. Slippery slope.


Very, *very* good point. I'd think any "employee" issues would be way worse to deal with than just the basic tax matter. You are right -slippery slope. Could be multiple cans of worms behind that door. Def talk to CPA. -Now.


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## river rider (Dec 31, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> No it's accurate. If he made it out to his company, i.e. corporation, he wouldn't have to send a 1099. Also don't have to send to an LLC's that is setup to be taxed like a corp.


To me, company does not necessarily = corp. I think it is a more general term. Perhaps I am technically wrong. ?? Do you know for certain that the term means corp?

I, and many others often casually use "company" as a term equivalent to "business". I just looked one place that said sole prop is a form of company also. ??


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I am thinking maybe i did not lose it and he took it from my desk


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

river rider said:


> To me, company does not necessarily = corp. I think it is a more general term. Perhaps I am technically wrong. ?? Do you know for certain that the term means corp?
> 
> I, and many others often casually use "company" as a term equivalent to "business". I just looked one place that said sole prop is a form of company also. ??


It's obvious what I thought.

But technically a company doesn't have to be a corporation. LLC means Limited Liablity Company, so it doesn't have to be a corp, but it can be treated as a corp. That's the gray area with LLC's.

EDIT: The post that I responded to said something about making it out to his company. I just pictured separate intity or a corp. Otherwise it wouldn't matter much as long as it was deposited in the company account.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Even then, the guy would still owe his side of the taxes.



Would he? If he claims he was an employee and it was the employers responsibility to hold back and submit the taxes on his behalf...just saying...I've seen guys do that before.

I err'd once and did not take enough tax off a guys check, minor amount, under $30, it was me that had to pay that and another $50 penalty and interest


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Chris Johnson said:


> Would he? If he claims he was an employee and it was the employers responsibility to hold back and submit the taxes on his behalf...just saying...I've seen guys do that before.
> 
> I err'd once and did not take enough tax off a guys check, minor amount, under $30, it was me that had to pay that and another $50 penalty and interest


Yes he would. When I pay someone $15 an hour that is before taxes. Regardless if I fail to withhold he still owes his side. Ask me how I know?

I was an employee that was classified as a sub. I had to submit a form (SS8) to request a classification change. I had to pay my side of the taxes, in the end it was my income.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I'm going to guess and say the government probably looks at who is easiest to get the money out of, or maybe they go after both parties and first one to pay loses!

As an employer I got the letter and I paid immediately...didn't need a visit, you filed a form and they asked you to pay.

I had a guy working for me who's last employer told him his pay was after taxes, at the end of the year no T4 (your W9 I think) asked the guy what was going on, boss said he didn't remit as he couldn't afford it!!! So this guy files his taxes and government went after the employer.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I just can tell you what happened with me. I owed my side of the taxes. I had to pay on my income.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I just can tell you what happened with me. I owed my side of the taxes. I had to pay on my income.



So Fed and State, plus the employer side too? Ouch


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I had to pay my fed, state and FICA. He had to pay the company's side.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

TNTSERVICES said:


> hmm...what?


what?..a guy can't hmm without being interrogated?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tom Struble said:


> what?..a guy can't hmm without being interrogated?


I can't speak for everyone, but hmmm me and you can expect at least a what?


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## jstanton (Mar 25, 2012)

A & E you cannot afford to not have a cpa. I do my own books and meet with him at tax time, costs me $400 - $500. I get to bounce questions off him all year before purchases, payroll ect... He has a day job and does this on the side, I'm sure if you look around you will be presently surprised. I actually met with him before I went on my own to get everything in line.


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