# Efflorescence Mystery



## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

This an email from a client, any thoughts?

_Hi Chris, sorry to bother you with this, but I'm stuck. We have a strange water issue in the bricks on one side of the house--it rains, and 8-12 hours later we get a vast area of white that appears as the water evaporates out. Last winter it blew out the pointing, and I had to have it redone. The mason was guessing the water was getting in through some windows, but they are all fixed up, so that's not it. I had a roofer out last week to see if that was the problem, and he seemed to think probably not (but he was, as all roofers are, crazy, so who knows). So the mason has no idea, the roofer has no idea. But there is still water in the wall (it's between the bricks--it's a double brick wall). 

Do you have any idea what trade I could call next? Another roofer? I have absolutely no idea.
_
Best
cw


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

For more than you ever wanted to know about this, try
http://www.delawarequarries.com/cleaners/efflorescence.html
plus
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q="water+between+bricks"+pdf&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

and

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
Arthur Conan Doyle

Seems like some dispositive tests are in order, by contractors or the HO or some lab or some consultant. :blink:


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

have a Thermal imaging camera available?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

What has the most surface area of a wall? The wall itself. If the efflorecence shows up that fast it must be a very soft brick and/or mortar. Is the wall sealed? Normally you won't get wide areas of efflorecence from point entrance of water. 
Second he says it is a double wythe wall, what is in between the wythes?


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## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

Age of house is a consideration I should have mentioned. I think it's around 80 years old.

Between the whythes - most likely air and bits of mortar.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Efflorescence is generally a problem with younger masonry as the water soluble salts work themselves to the surface through evaporation of moisture.

If the wall is has been recently re-pointed which may be the case, it could be that mortar which is causing efflorescence.

A good quality sealer, e.g Sure Klean PD would surely put a stop to the transfer of such water and minimize your issue. That is, if everything checks out with undermining leaks.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Don't use sealer in our climate please. There should be absolutely no need for it. How high above grade? Roofers are crazy, and some are lazy. Need a pic for any sort of a reasonable diagnosis. If it's reasonably close to a chimney, flashing would be my guess but there are so many possible answers that without more info we're throwing darts blindfolded


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

I'M with dom-mas 100% regarding the use of sealers. The building has stood for around 80 years and now we need to apply a sealer ? ? ?



Applying a sealer to masonry is like dancing with the devil as far as I'M concerned.I think the root problem needs to be corrected rather than think the world of chemistry will solve your problem.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I know you do not like sealer, and a true mass wall should not be sealed, but it sounds like this is different and something is causing generalized moisture movement, and very quick movement at that. It does not sound like a point source, it sounds like a porous brick and not enough volume to make the cycle, driven by an issue with the wall makeup.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Chris G; post some pictures. Without pictures it is like expecting a mechanic to diagnose engine trouble by placing his knee against the fender with the hood closed.:laughing:


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

It is, but there are some cues: It must be a recent problem, it is not a point source, and it is extremely rapid.

Best guess on that information is a recent sealing of the interior wall, paint, or insulation/vapor barrier, etc.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tscarborough said:


> It is, but there are some cues: It must be a recent problem, it is not a point source, and it is extremely rapid.
> 
> Best guess on that information is a recent sealing of the interior wall, paint, or insulation/vapor barrier, etc.


good points. I'd still like a picture to try and eliminate some things.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Listen guys...I get the whole sealer debate but there's no way you can prove to me from what I've seen and experienced through the years of multi wythe construction...Our area is full of it...rusted out electrical boxes on interior perimeters, rusted out galvy flashings, rusted and jacked lintels, waterborne and oxide staining, and so on...Just because the building lasted 80 years without no sealer doesn't mean it wouldn't have benefited having it.

And to think chemistry is not helping to maintain some of the worlds most monumental monuments would be foolish thought as well. Sealers are here and here to stay, for very good reason IMO.

Dom and FJ, do you honestly think applying a quality product such as Sure-Klean PD poses long term threats to the masonry? My experience and verdict would be much different.

No disrespect...just my perspective.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Sealers work, when warranted. Here in central Texas there is a lot of hand made low-fired Mexican brick. It can last for 80 years unsealed, and then pop every face on the North side of the building when we get a rainstorm followed by an ice storm. It doesn't happen often, but it happens often enough to make it worthwhile to seal the brick.

On mass walls, it is a little more complicated, even with an excellent sealer like Siloxane PD. First if the wall is not dry when it is sealed, then there is an issue. Second, even though it is breathable, if liquid water gets in the wall on a sealed mass wall, there is going to be degradation.

I will defer to the cold weather guys on their climate, I don't know enough to say.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

There are very few sealers used in my area...almost none really. I'm not well versed on all the different products out there and I'm sure there may be some that will help more than hinder, but of the few I've seen applied, they trapped moisture, made the wall look wet, and eventually flaked off...and they usually didn't solve the problem because rain infiltration isn't a big deal here....unless it's coming from poor flashing or caulking, rotted wood which was often incorporated into the masonry, vegetation that has leaves that touch the structure, or bounce back from a driveway or sidewalk or some other form of water being diverted towards it

I also know that you use a type N or stronger mortar for re-pointing older homes. In Ontario that gives a moulded brick a 10 year death sentence, maybe 20 if it's in a sheltered area. You live in a very different climate than the OP and I do.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

That house was showing no signs of effloresence for some time before and it suddenly appeared. Some new development is causing it like Tscar says. Better to my mind to fix the underlying problem than to fix the symptom. Perhaps it will be that a sealer will cure it's ill, but I still want a pic first


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

If you use a surface sealer on exterior masonry, you an idiot, no matter what climate you are in. May as well paint it with oil paint.

The sealers which I am talking about do not change the appearance, are breathable, and penetrate and bind with the silica content of the brick.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

So they change the chemistry of the bricks? ugh, but maybe some bricks need their chemistry changed. TO had some excellent brickyards right up into the '70's, excellent brick for the most part. Good clay, well fired and durable

Maybe sealers have come a long way, I still can;t understand why they are needed for a well maintained home. We don;t get the volume of wind driven rain that other locations get.


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## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

I'll see if I can get him to take pics. Dark and rainy here, so clues to mystery will have to wait till tomorrow I guess.


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## jazzwillie (May 15, 2015)

While on a tour of the Belden Brick plants our guide was asked what kind of sealer to they recommend with their brick. His answer was "The best sealer we recommend is... no sealer. The best defense for a brick wall is air flow."


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Here are my observations. The last three res-ponders all have offered valid perspectives / possibilities. The thing I noticed / thought about,the building is probably lime based mortar. The pointing mortar definitely is not. Also,if you look at the window to the far left,it was pointed below the sill and the other pointing is obvious where it occurred. Bottom line,the pointing IMHO has somehow contributed to the efflorescence. Possibly situations as 4thgen. has suggested. 



By the way,IMHO do not apply sealer.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Yeah, sealer is not going to fix that.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Likely source is the window sill as already mentioned, you can see soem staining underneath. Brick sills don;t do well around here. Pointing mortar is definitely not compatible, and could be contributing as well but if the problem existed previously there are other factors. Bounce back from the driveway could also be adding to the mess


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## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

So, the answer to my clients question is: "Call another mason?" Dom-ass wanna give it a go.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

You could try PMing S.U.M, he's in the GTO. The cost of my commute would make it cost prohibitive


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Just a thought / observation,if the 100 yr. home truly is multiple wythes,where are the header courses ? In my neck of the woods (N.W.In.) you would not see a 100 yr. building metal tied. Wonder if it is solid up to the floor joists and veneered above ?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Take another look. Every now and again there are 2 heads instead of a stretcher. Not a super common bond and I don;t know it's name but I see it every now and again.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

It's on the courses that are on 1/3 lap and it goes 2 stretchers,2 headers, 2 stretchers, 2 headers etc.. On most of the buildings I've seen it on it;s every 5 or 6 courses like American bond and also under any openings. This one seems a little ore random


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Dom-Mas @ 48 A version of "Ideal" rowlock? I understood the OP as tuck pointed, then efflorescence...

The striking is rather poor, lazy, and a tag at EVERY head joint....

Maybe the tucker ground the glaze off most of the units widening the joints to "speed' the pointing....freeing salts formerly "trapped" inside the glazing...

Version II, sand or soda blasting destroying the brick's surface glaze...

I'd check for plumbing leaks or even HVAC issues behind above white spot.

Finally, what is up with the rock face footer/basement? is the black coating contemporaneous with the discoloring? formerly released moisture is now held in to lower courses of brick.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

definitely multi whythe and might just be rising damp or perhaps a splashing gutter? 

On a side note, we got pounded with 75 to 100 mph winds and heavy rain Tuesday night and were still out of power. Fast moving thunderstorms soaked and damaged a lot of old masonry structures. Slates were removed from local churches...sealers are commonplace in these parts. Used on healthy masonry, they prevent unwanted soaking, efflorescence issues, corrosion, and wood rot associated with let in floor joist, etc...


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Chris G said:


> This an email from a client, any thoughts?
> 
> _Hi Chris, sorry to bother you with this, but I'm stuck. We have a strange water issue in the bricks on one side of the house--it rains, and 8-12 hours later we get a vast area of white that appears as the water evaporates out. Last winter it blew out the pointing, and I had to have it redone. The mason was guessing the water was getting in through some windows, but they are all fixed up, so that's not it.
> _


_



Fouthgeneration said:



I understood the OP as tuck pointed, then efflorescence...

I don't think so. It looks like there was effloresence, it got bad enough to "blow out the pointing", which was when a mason came and did the "repair"
Finally, what is up with the rock face footer/basement? is the black coating contemporaneous with the discoloring? formerly released moisture is now held in to lower courses of brick.

Click to expand...

That's a good point and one I was thinking of last night. Typically here (4 hours+ away but still a shared masonry heritage) there is a bond break of some sort between the foundation and the brick. Usually just a strip of tar paper the width of the wall, but by the time I see it, it's most often pretty ratty and not doing a heck of a lot, so it is quite possible, but why isn't the rest of the lower wall the same?_


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

This is the best thread I've read in a long time.
Everybody working hard to solve the problem, no ad hominem, no Straw Man arguments, no "100% certain", no logical fallacies.

So, more clues needed? 

And, how to get them?


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Take another look. Every now and again there are 2 heads instead of a stretcher. Not a super common bond and I don;t know it's name but I see it every now and again.




They were hard to spot,but since you mentioned it,I did see them.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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