# Markup on subcontract work



## orson

Not sure if anyone will want to answer this on here since it is free for all to view, but what do you guys consider fair markup on subcontract work? i.e. I'm the GC on a bathroom remodel, what do I markup the bill from the tile guy? I have a pretty good idea of what I plan to do which is to mark it up 10% but I want to find out what the GC communities take is on this.

Let me be a tad more specific....When I price jobs I load my overhead markup onto my labor for any of the work my company actually does including job supervision labor. If the customer changes fixtures etc. it affects the price on a direct relationship. Then I take my total materials costs, subcontractor costs, and my marked up labor charges and get a total price w/o profit. Then I mark up that total to get a 10% profit margin. Does this sound like a fair way to price the subcontract work to the customer?

www.rubycon.us
Ruby Construction LLC 
Lancaster Kitchen Remodeling
Lancaster Bathroom Remodeling


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## knothole

The people that I do work for say they add 10% to my bill.


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## rbsremodeling

only 10% mark up ???

I think I am going to hell:devil:


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## ruskent

I wouldn't mark it up. I'd go for a 25-40% margain.


I made the mistake of only marking up subs 10%. That did not work out good for me. It barly covers your time of dealing with the sub. We are in business to make a living. We should not feel guilty for making a decent living.


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## rbsremodeling

ruskent said:


> I wouldn't mark it up. I'd go for a 25-40% margain.
> 
> 
> I made the mistake of only marking up subs 10%. That did not work out good for me. It barly covers your time of dealing with the sub. We are in business to make a living. We should not feel guilty for making a decent living.


Eactlly what i was thinking. Also I do alot of highend remodels where light fixtures or appliance can cost what the labor of subs bill. It also takes alot of time and research to get the layouts and fixtures placed, and installed like the homeowner wants.

Also my mark up varies by sub. I have some subs that are just that good that don't need alot of hand holding


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## Patrick

Its when your subs start living better than you, that you know you need to increase your markup


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## ChrWright

You'll find a lot of good info on this by searching past threads. This question gets asked a lot.

In the end, any number or percentage is meaningless unless you know a lot more detail about how someone runs their business. I know a builder who charges 10% who's the most expensive guy in town. 

Before plucking some number out of the air, take the time to know your own numbers first. Figure out what it costs you to be in business for a month, day, week, etc....Just knowing that will save you at least 2 years of wheel spinning.


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## orson

rbsremodeling said:


> only 10% mark up ???
> 
> I think I am going to hell:devil:


no, I mark it up X to get a profit margin of 10% I think x is 1.12 w/o a calculator in front of me. I see what you guys are saying though, it's sort of irrelevent because you don't know my exact pricing structure on how I mark up my company labor and how I determine how many hours of job supervision go into the job(job supervision includes getting the subs going and keeping them on track for my business). Every once in a while I still feel that tickle of insecurity in my pricing, especially when some chump undercuts my price using substandard quality subs 

www.rubycon.us
Ruby Construction LLC 
Lancaster Kitchen Remodeling
Lancaster Bathroom Remodeling


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## ultimatetouch

It also depends how cheap your subs are. If you are really getting rock bottom prices from your subs somtimes you could double the labor.


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## orson

I don't really consider it ethical to use rock bottom subs and mark up their labor extra. If they're doing quality work i just tell them to raise their price.

www.rubycon.us
Ruby Construction LLC 
Lancaster Kitchen Remodeling
Lancaster Bathroom Remodeling


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## john elliott

This is interesting stuff. Guys here are saying that in order to get paid for the time they spend supervising subs they add a percentage to their subs bills.

This seems to be a strange way of charging for time. I charge for my time by figuring the total hours I spend on the client's job.That time might be spent on making and installing cabinets, on consulting with the clients, on supervising subs etc etc. Seems to me to make a lot more sense to figure the total time I spend on a job and charge on a time x hourly rate basis. Adding percentages to subs is a very innaccurate way of charging for time.

John


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## send_it_all

john elliott said:


> This is interesting stuff. Guys here are saying that in order to get paid for the time they spend supervising subs they add a percentage to their subs bills.
> 
> Adding percentages to subs is a very innaccurate way of charging for time.
> 
> John


Not really. If you consider owner's salary and job supervision as overhead...which imo, is a good way to do it, especially if running multiple jobs simultaneously... I take my total direct job costs...labor, materials, AND subs...then add my markup (O&P) to that total to get my price. My total mark up is currently around 40% and probably about to go up a little.


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## ChrWright

john elliott said:


> This is interesting stuff. Guys here are saying that in order to get paid for the time they spend supervising subs they add a percentage to their subs bills.
> 
> This seems to be a strange way of charging for time. I charge for my time by figuring the total hours I spend on the client's job.That time might be spent on making and installing cabinets, on consulting with the clients, on supervising subs etc etc. Seems to me to make a lot more sense to figure the total time I spend on a job and charge on a time x hourly rate basis. Adding percentages to subs is a very innaccurate way of charging for time.
> 
> John


 
To anyone new to the business of being a GC: You'll go poor with that mentality and be of service to no one--your employees, your clients, yourself.

Comments like that can be poison to someone just starting out.


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## john elliott

The point that I am making is that adding a percentage to the various costs of a job is an inaccurate way of recovering the costs of supervising those subs. Some will need more time spent with them and some will need less. If you charge for the _actual time that is required _rather than a _flat rate percentage _of their cost then you will have a much more accurate basis on which to quote

John


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## Grumpy

Ask your accountant. He knows what you need to earn to survive.

10% goes to the salesman, so what goes to the project manager? What goes to the administrative staff? What goes to the corporate share holders?

If you ask my book keeper or accountant they will say I need to markup my labor and materials 25% to break even, and that's before paying the sales rep. I will typically mark up anywhere from 35% minimum to 100%. 

However I also would not LOWER my price if my costs happened to go down.


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## silvertree

I mark up subs 30 to 50%. No exceptions. If your advertising costs are 6 or 10% you are paying to market your subs. 10% markup is doing it for free.


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## Grumpy

john elliott said:


> The point that I am making is that adding a percentage to the various costs of a job is an inaccurate way of recovering the costs of supervising those subs. Some will need more time spent with them and some will need less. If you charge for the _actual time that is required _rather than a _flat rate percentage _of their cost then you will have a much more accurate basis on which to quote
> 
> John


Agreed, however for the "average" job a simple markup factor will do. How can you predict how many hours you will spend on a job? Sure you know on some you will spend more than on others. regardless if you guess at man hours or guess at markup estimating is still making educated guesses. 

If you have a cost plus contract with a customer that could go either way. It also could go a combination of both. Add administrative and supervisory hours to the job then mark up everything %.


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## Fence & Deck

If I was to sub out some electrical work, or windows, or roofing, to another company, and they supply all labour and materials, I would mark up their bill by 15-20%, and tell the client as much.
On the other hand, I include my subcontracted labour only rates as part of my cost on a job, and I mark them up at 40-60%, same as material.


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## Brock

Heres a good rule of thumb.

add up all subs
add up all materials (that subs dont supply) 
add up all permits
guess how many trips to job you will need to do at $50 per visit

Total these all up.

take this figure and simply double it. thats your estimate to the homeowner unless you come referred by another customer then you multiply by 3.


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## ChrWright

Rules of thumb and "guesstimates" are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Neither is copying what someone else does, without knowing a lot more detail than "oh, just go cost plus XX%."

You'll screw yourself more often than not by using such simplistic methods of estimating. A lot of us start out that way, working by yourself, & maybe one helper--when it seems like the only expense you have is your own time. You've got to get around that mentality if you want to grow. 

A contractor business, GC or Sub, is a business like any other. You will die on the vine, like 4 out 5 new businesses do, if you don't get a handle on this. 

You owe it to yourself, and to your clients, to ensure you have the financial stability to weather the storms that will inevitably come as you establish yourself. That means INTELLIGENT estimating. You'll never lose money on a job you don't get. However, one underbid project can send you into a financial tailspin from which you will never recover.


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## john elliott

I presume what we are talking about here is bidding fixed price work? Nobody here is talking about T&M, or if they are, what I am saying is NOT aimed at them

Anyway, the idea of bidding for work is to be accurate, to bid as much as you need to make the money you require, and no more. The reason being is that if you bid too much then you won’t get the job anyway. And no less than the money you need either, otherwise you would be better off bidding on a different job rather than losing money or failing to make enough money on a job you have underbid.

So, we are looking for accuracy. To get an accurate answer we need all the inputs to be accurate. We need to know our own costs which will include overhead, required profit etc etc etc. We need to know what it is going to cost us to get the job we are bidding on done. The greater our skill, experience, intelligence, attention to detail etc, the more accurate we can be with costing the job. I am sure no one here would disagree with that.

What I don’t get is the idea of adding a flat rate mark-up to any of the costs of the job. Not because that’s a good or a bad thing to do, but because it is INACCURATE. Let’s take the case of materials. Some materials are inherently cheap. Should you get less money for your time because you are working with cheap materials that day? I don’t think so. What you should get paid for is for your skilled time, not made up of some time and some (variable) markup.

Suppose we have two contractors bidding against each other on a job. This is just an example. Let’s suppose that the costs of the job are $5000. Contractor A figures out his bid -$5000 marked up 20% =$6000, plus 80 hours at $50 per hour = $4000. So he bids $10,000. Experience has show him that these figures make him money.

For the same job Contractor B figures out his bid- $5000 costs, no mark up. 80 hours at $62.50 per hour = $5000. So he also bids $10,000. With no other factors they have an equal chance of getting the job.

Where it all goes wrong for Contractor A is when the costs of the job change. Let’s suppose the next job the costs are only $1000. So, $1000 marked up 20% = $1200. 80 hours at $50 = $4000 so he bids $5,200

Contractor B, $1000 costs, 80 hours at $62.50 = $5000. Bid = $6000. Now this time Contractor A is probably going to get the job but the problem is that _he is going to be making less money_. In this example for the 80 hours he’s only getting $4,200 because he relies on the markup of his costs to get him the rest of his money, and if the costs are less he doesn’t make so much money for his time, which is, after all, the only thing that he sells which is in finite supply. 

Contractor B bases his bids on his time, not on variable costs with a flat rate markup, so his bidding is more accurate, and as we agreed earlier, I hope, accuracy is what we are looking for.

John


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## skyhook

2 true stories, I will try to keep it short. 

a) *Commercial TI*, 8,000 sq ft shell, demo, build out offices, commercial kitchen, AC, 400 amp , etc. job is going good.
I pull into the back parking lot overlooking a golf course, the weight of my F-250 caves in a *15'x15' sink hole*. Broken sprinkler pipe, belonging to the Golf Course has been undermining our parking lot.
I get 3 bids from paving Contractors, all are between 6-7 thousand dollars. 
I bid *$7k* to the Property Owner, he agrees and signs the addendum contract.
Next day I call R J Noble, ( nationwide paving co. ) for a forth bid before I sub it out. He tells me they have trucks in the area, they can squeeze me in for *$800*. They got it done and get paid, Property Owner is happy,
* net profit $6,200.*

b) *Hard demo* addition to $300k remodel overlooking the Pacific Ocean. I get 3 bids, highest bid was $25k. I bid *$25k* to CMA. Home Owner says go ahead for $25k, signs contract. Next day I call and get a forth bid, *$7k.* WTH, the guy has men, equipment and is ready to work. 2 days after they start, he comes to me a says he needs another Grand. OK but I need it done by friday, they finish and get paid, Home Owner is happy. 
*Net profit $17k.


*


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## silvertree

skyhook said:


> 2 true stories, I will try to keep it short.
> 
> a) *Commercial TI*, 8,000 sq ft shell, demo, build out offices, commercial kitchen, AC, 400 amp , etc. job is going good.
> I pull into the back parking lot overlooking a golf course, the weight of my F-250 caves in a *15'x15' sink hole*. Broken sprinkler pipe, belonging to the Golf Course has been undermining our parking lot.
> I get 3 bids from paving Contractors, all are between 6-7 thousand dollars.
> I bid *$7k* to the Property Owner, he agrees and signs the addendum contract.
> Next day I call R J Noble, ( nationwide paving co. ) for a forth bid before I sub it out. He tells me they have trucks in the area, they can squeeze me in for *$800*. They got it done and get paid, Property Owner is happy,
> * net profit $6,200.*
> 
> b) *Hard demo* addition to $300k remodel overlooking the Pacific Ocean. I get 3 bids, highest bid was $25k. I bid *$25k* to CMA. Home Owner says go ahead for $25k, signs contract. Next day I call and get a forth bid, *$7k.* WTH, the guy has men, equipment and is ready to work. 2 days after they start, he comes to me a says he needs another Grand. OK but I need it done by friday, they finish and get paid, Home Owner is happy.
> *Net profit $17k.
> 
> Those are great stories, and most of us have had that happen once or twice and have had it go the other way also. I bid with subcontractor pricing and materials plus labor and office burden by 50 to 70 %. Sometimes 80 to 100% for certain situations. Here in Mpls most of my friends and competitors do the same. The subs have insurance and work comp and we get copies of the certificates, the minimum markup considered is 50% to get a 33% gross profit. Is it accurate? Well it works for a lot of people. What the best of us are, is very good guessers. I guess it will take me ? hours to do a kitchen. I am a good guesser and sometimes I am a great guesser. When I guess too many hours and it takes less time, I am a great guesser, when I guess and it takes longer I'm an OK guesser. But I still have my subs and materials markups to cover my *ss.*


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## silvertree

john elliott said:


> I presume what we are talking about here is bidding fixed price work? Nobody here is talking about T&M, or if they are, what I am saying is NOT aimed at them
> 
> Anyway, the idea of bidding for work is to be accurate, to bid as much as you need to make the money you require, and no more. The reason being is that if you bid too much then you won’t get the job anyway. And no less than the money you need either, otherwise you would be better off bidding on a different job rather than losing money or failing to make enough money on a job you have underbid.
> 
> So, we are looking for accuracy. To get an accurate answer we need all the inputs to be accurate. We need to know our own costs which will include overhead, required profit etc etc etc. We need to know what it is going to cost us to get the job we are bidding on done. The greater our skill, experience, intelligence, attention to detail etc, the more accurate we can be with costing the job. I am sure no one here would disagree with that.
> 
> What I don’t get is the idea of adding a flat rate mark-up to any of the costs of the job. Not because that’s a good or a bad thing to do, but because it is INACCURATE. Let’s take the case of materials. Some materials are inherently cheap. Should you get less money for your time because you are working with cheap materials that day? I don’t think so. What you should get paid for is for your skilled time, not made up of some time and some (variable) markup.
> 
> Suppose we have two contractors bidding against each other on a job. This is just an example. Let’s suppose that the costs of the job are $5000. Contractor A figures out his bid -$5000 marked up 20% =$6000, plus 80 hours at $50 per hour = $4000. So he bids $10,000. Experience has show him that these figures make him money.
> 
> For the same job Contractor B figures out his bid- $5000 costs, no mark up. 80 hours at $62.50 per hour = $5000. So he also bids $10,000. With no other factors they have an equal chance of getting the job.
> 
> Where it all goes wrong for Contractor A is when the costs of the job change. Let’s suppose the next job the costs are only $1000. So, $1000 marked up 20% = $1200. 80 hours at $50 = $4000 so he bids $5,200
> 
> Contractor B, $1000 costs, 80 hours at $62.50 = $5000. Bid = $6000. Now this time Contractor A is probably going to get the job but the problem is that _he is going to be making less money_. In this example for the 80 hours he’s only getting $4,200 because he relies on the markup of his costs to get him the rest of his money, and if the costs are less he doesn’t make so much money for his time, which is, after all, the only thing that he sells which is in finite supply.
> 
> Contractor B bases his bids on his time, not on variable costs with a flat rate markup, so his bidding is more accurate, and as we agreed earlier, I hope, accuracy is what we are looking for.
> 
> John


John, I follow your logic, and agree to a point. What if I was a plumber and used 100% markup on materials. Today I install 100 galvanized fittings at $1.00 ea and charge $100 an hour. 
$1.00 x 100 + 100%= $200 plus 8hrs labor for a total of $1000 for the day.
Tomorrow I install gold plated faucets 1 per hour at $1000 cost per faucet.
$1000 x 8 + 100%= $16,000 plus 8 hrs labor to total $16,800 for the day. A very good day indeed. We would not do this and in this case would quote pricing differently. The flat markup method works, and it shortens bidding time. As for being inaccurate, experienced business owners play with the markup if they have to, but it's how we do business around here. If I do a labor only job, I have to charge wages plus operating costs or I'm paying for the business from my wages. But I get your argument and would agree with you except for the fact I have been both contractor A and B and the flat rate markup has worked the best for me, but I'm a pretty good guesser.


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## Mike Finley

john elliott said:


> This seems to be a strange way of charging for time. I charge for my time by figuring the total hours I spend on the client's job.That time might be spent on making and installing cabinets, on consulting with the clients, on supervising subs etc etc. Seems to me to make a lot more sense to figure the total time I spend on a job and charge on a time x hourly rate basis. Adding percentages to subs is a very innaccurate way of charging for time.
> 
> John


We charge much more along the lines of what John is saying, we don't base it on time as he is saying, but never in a million years would I base what we charge by adding 10% or whatever percentage to a subs bill. That sounds way too much like time & materials method to me. It's a rare experience where I even have a sub look at a job, so the only way I could even attempt to do the add 10% thing would be to have an agreement with the customer to work t&M and that ain't gonna ever happen.


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## ChrWright

What if you ruin one of those gold plated faucets?

As was mentioned before... there is a risk to being responsible for everything--eventually you're going to end up having to replace something.

More expensive materials=more risk.


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## Mike Finley

There are also handsome rewards for being responsible for everything.


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## Mike Finley

thom said:


> You guys left a huge hole in your budgets.
> 
> If your sub doesn't carry WC you pay it on his full bill.
> 
> If your sub doesn't carry liability ins, you pay it on his full bill.
> 
> Before you do your bid you've got to include all the costs. Adding 10% to a sub that doesn't carry insurance puts you in a deep hole if everything goes as expected.
> 
> Those are big words, "EVERYTHING GOES AS EXPECTED". Sometimes things go bad. If you don't add enough, you'll go bad in the process.


Isn't the simple solution to that a sub-contractor agreement that says no payments what-so-ever are to be made to the sub if:

A)
B)
C)

With one of those talking about a current insurance certificate with your company listed as additional insured in your possession and another about WC?


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## ChrWright

I'm surprised all of the licensed craft guys/girls aren't weighing in more on this subject. 

Reminds me of this story:

A giant ship engine failed. The ship's owners tried one expert after another, but none of them could figure but how to fix the engine. Then they brought in an old man who had been fixing ships since he was a young. He carried a large bag of tools with him, and when he arrived, he immediately went to work. He inspected the engine very carefully, top to bottom. Two of the ship's owners were there, watching this man, hoping he would know what to do. After looking things over, the old man reached into his bag and pulled out a small hammer. He gently tapped something. Instantly, the engine lurched to life. He carefully put his hammer away. The engine was fixed.

A week later, the owners received a bill from the old man for ten thousand dollars.

"What?!" the owners exclaimed. "He hardly did anything!" So they wrote the old man a note saying, "Please send us an itemized bill." 

The man sent a bill that read: 
Tapping with a hammer....................... $ 2.00 
Knowing where to tap........................ $ 9,998.00


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## orson

ChWright, 

I agree with you on that but I also agree with John Elliot, here's how I reconcile the difference:

I determine how many hours of labor including job supervision etc. my company will spend on the job.

hours times hourly rate which includes my overhead markup 

add subcontractor bids

add materials marked up 11.3%(this pays for damage/errors, probably a little high, if you're damaging 10% of your materials regularly you may need AA)

markup this total number 11.3% for profit, yielding a net profit margin of 10%

www.rubycon.us
Ruby Construction LLC 
Lancaster Kitchen Remodeling
Lancaster Bathroom Remodeling


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## ChrWright

We all have slightly different ways of arriving at the same destination. 

However, the GC markup percentage is generally accepted as SOP for bidding. If you're bidding on larger projects, insurance work, AIA contracts, etc., you're going to look silly charging some hourly rate for management. 

I'm not talking about subs, I'm talking about GCs. 

This fee covers *project management*, overhead, risk, insurance, etc etc... The argument here seems to be that charging a percentage markup is somehow unfair to the customer, and that's BS.

Property managers charge a percentage fee for their services (usually around 10% of gross receipts)--same thing.


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## Mike Finley

ChrWright said:


> We all have slightly different ways of arriving at the same destination.
> 
> However, the GC markup percentage is generally accepted as SOP for bidding. If you're bidding on larger projects, insurance work, AIA contracts, etc., you're going to look silly charging some hourly rate for management.
> 
> I'm not talking about subs, I'm talking about GCs.
> 
> This fee covers *project management*, overhead, risk, insurance, etc etc... The argument here seems to be that charging a percentage markup is somehow unfair to the customer, and that's BS.
> 
> Property managers charge a percentage fee for their services (usually around 10% of gross receipts)--same thing.


I'd have to agree, if the job is 20K, it doesn't really matter how you get to it as long as you get to it!:thumbup1:

In situations where you gotta show yer cards to somebody then you're gonna have to make sure you're doing things in the way they are expected them.


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## silvertree

orson said:


> ChWright,
> 
> I agree with you on that but I also agree with John Elliot, here's how I reconcile the difference:
> 
> I determine how many hours of labor including job supervision etc. my company will spend on the job.
> 
> hours times hourly rate which includes my overhead markup
> 
> add subcontractor bids
> 
> add materials marked up 11.3%(this pays for damage/errors, probably a little high, if you're damaging 10% of your materials regularly you may need AA)
> 
> markup this total number 11.3% for profit, yielding a net profit margin of 10%


Sure thats not gross profit at 10%?

I have to mark everything up at least to 50% or 1.50 to get 33% gross profit out of which I pay all costs. So your saying you get most of your operating costs by marking up labor= so a carpenter who gets $30 plus workers comp, vacation, tool wear, plus truck plus rent plus advertising ect and then you markup materials 11.3% plus subs and you net 10%. I'm not good at math, so I'll stick to the way I do it, but if I got 8% net after a 1.6 markup I would consider myself lucky.


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## orson

I'm shooting for net of 10%, all the other markup is in the labor rate, carpenter costing 30 is billed at more than double that.

I do agree with mike finley though, how u get there doesn't really matter, I just like that fact that my customers can improve their fixtures etc. and it affects the end price a little closer to directly. also when customers try to cheapen the job by reducing spending on fixtures you are still getting your needed markup.

www.rubycon.us
Ruby Construction LLC 
Lancaster Kitchen Remodeling
Lancaster Bathroom Remodeling


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## Mike Finley

orson said:


> I just like that fact that my customers can improve their fixtures etc. and it affects the end price a little closer to directly. also when customers try to cheapen the job by reducing spending on fixtures you are still getting your needed markup.


That is right on the money, and basically how I want to structure everything we do. I never want to be confused with a non-profit.


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## ultimatetouch

Mike Finley said:


> We charge much more along the lines of what John is saying, we don't base it on time as he is saying, but never in a million years would I base what we charge by adding 10% or whatever percentage to a subs bill. That sounds way too much like time & materials method to me. It's a rare experience where I even have a sub look at a job, so the only way I could even attempt to do the add 10% thing would be to have an agreement with the customer to work t&M and that ain't gonna ever happen.


I am not sure I understand why it wouldnt work to add % to the bill if your sub hasnt seen the job. Hopefully you know about what he is going to charge you. I dont do time and materials and I do it all the time. I know maximum amount I pay out from knowing costs add the percentage I want to make on top.


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## Mike Finley

You know, there are a lot of ways to do it. Another way can be to piece out a remodeling project. Let's say for example a kitchen remodel. You could create a pricing system that breaks out each possible remodeling component and assigns a price to it. For example:

A sink cabinet.

30" cab = cabinet cost * 1.50 for material cost 
Installation $60

36" cab = cabinet cost * 1.50 for material cost 
Installation $80

48" cab = cabinet cost * 1.50 for material cost 
Installation $100

This is only an example and a simple one, but the idea is the same for anything.

Your sub has his own way of figuring the install for you, maybe it's square foot, maybe it's by the box, whatever, it's irrelevant cause you have tweeked your system to work based upon your internal prices.

Maybe you say a pedestal sink install is $450.00, moving plumbing when you are dealing with a cabinet vanity switching to a pedestal is pretty common, maybe you have a very simple $300 charge for any plumbing move required... what does your plumber charge you? Doesn't really matter cause you have worked out your system, the numbers you use to charge are based upon past work analyzed to average out to provide you your required profit margins.

Maybe you figure taking off a door off it's hinges is a $9.00 charge. I don't know, the numbers don't matter.

With a system like that the advantage is all you are doing is picking off a menu what you are going to be doing and the numbers drop in place. No need to ever call in a sub to bid something.

Like I said, it's all really the same thing, if it's a 20K project how you get there really doesn't matter. I'm never the lowest bidder on a project so it's never about hitting some number established out of some means guide or something.


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## kevjob

I never have subs look at my job, heres the permit number see ya then!


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## Milhaus

It takes quite some time to develop that pricing system is you're not doing the same thing everyday. Albeit a great way to speed up the process. I need to put some time into it. 

mark


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## ChrWright

The longer you estimate, the more emphasis you'll put on past experience & feel--and the less you'll place on square foot/unit pricing.

There is a point however, when you can't do everything yourself anymore. And in order to grow, you have to systemize your bidding process. You'll end up going back to a method as Mike described.


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