# Salary Employee



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

If I were an employee, especially while I was younger, I would have loved piecework.

Get paid for what you produce... and if you think about it, I'll bet most of you all would have liked that when, or if, you were an employee.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Don't take this the wrong way but, if you and I were competing in the same arena I would clean your clock. Not just me, all my competitors could clean your clock as well. 

What water heaters were $1,250? 40 gal natural gas? I could underbid that and your employees would be broke. 

My cost on a 40 Rheem is about $370. About $20 in parts, give or take. 

1.) Walk in with a pump. 
2.) Power drain the heater in about 3 minutes. 
3.) Bust open the box
4.) Screw in Pro Press adapters
5.) Slide on Pro Press reducing couplings
6.) Crimp (20 seconds, 25 seconds on a bad day) Immediately turn on the water and start filling.
7.) Crack the union and screw on the gas.
8.) Flue pipe
9.) Haul old water heater out
10.) Fire it up

Done. Average time??? 30-40 minutes on site

So you charge $1,250? You pay out $250

$1,000 balance
-$400 for heater + parts?

$600 balance?

From that you have to pay out all the overhead and taxes etc? 

Ok, so now consider a really efficient company who underbids you by $200 which is easy as pie. You would be screwed.

Now, I have worked for a lot of companies. All of them were super competitive, had a freakishly awesome culture of dedicated employees, highly motivated and dedicated to providing great service. If not you were fired. Period.

3 water heaters in a day? That's easy, everybody I know does that. 

What am I missing? Is this an L.A. thing?


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

For those of you worried about call backs, i rarely have issues with my piece work guys. My hourly guys are ALWAYS more than willing to go back and fix their screw ups cause im the sucker stuck paying for it


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Oco....Who ya talking too.....


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Oco....Who ya talking too.....


Pcplumber


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*Water heater profit.*



Oconomowoc said:


> Don't take this the wrong way but, if you and I were competing in the same arena I would clean your clock. Not just me, all my competitors could clean your clock as well.
> 
> What water heaters were $1,250? 40 gal natural gas? I could underbid that and your employees would be broke.
> 
> ...


In California the natural gas water heaters are about $480 because they have a nitrogen oxide system on them. Add 10% sales tax, some parts and the total cost is close to $600. Add $250 for the percent I pay for installation and the cost is $850. So, my gross income is $400 and then deduct about $250 for advertising, matching payroll taxes, and all the other overhead. My net profit is about $150 to $200 and I don't think that is a lot of money. I could lower the percent I pay to $100 or $150 but the $250 I pay is one of those things that I feel perks the employees to offset days when things don't work so well. I don't always try to come out on the top.

Most plumbers in California are charging $1050, some $850, and I am positive I close a higher percent of water heaters for the $1250.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

PC.... I don't wander too far from the thread, but what the H is a nitrogen oxide WH.... real quick... just curious... Thanks


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Did not say the pay scale should be the same.


I thought that you were saying that it's just as complex as roofing but allows for piecework pricing. I just don't see that they are comparable. Just my opinion.

And I am not saying that piecework doesn't work. Just seems like it would be complicated with all the different variables in roofing. But then again, I don't like getting on 8' ladders, so roofing isn't something that I do for anyone else but friends and family and then I only help.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Patrick said:


> For those of you worried about call backs, i rarely have issues with my piece work guys. My hourly guys are ALWAYS more than willing to go back and fix their screw ups cause im the sucker stuck paying for it


Properly managed and they wouldn't be happy at all, they would be out of jobs.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*Nox*



MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> PC.... I don't wander too far from the thread, but what the H is a nitrogen oxide WH.... real quick... just curious... Thanks


When gasoline, natural gas, and propane burns it creates Nitrogen Oxide and Nitrogen Dioxide which are Greenhouse gases. A few years ago, California decided to reduce the Nitrogen Oxide and Nitrogen Dioxide emitted from all gas water heaters. So, California's water heaters don't have have conventional burners. They have burners that look like a box or long tub made of what looks like metal window screen material and/or they have some type of rod that is directly in the flame that is supposed to reduced the Nitrogen Oxides. Force air furnaces also have these rods. Less heat goes out the smoke pipe and the water heaters are suppose to be more-efficient. I think!


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

pcplumber said:


> When gasoline, natural gas, and propane burns it creates Nitrogen Oxide and Nitrogen Dioxide which are "alleged" Greenhouse gases. A few years ago, California decided to reduce the Nitrogen Oxide and Nitrogen Dioxide emitted from all gas water heaters. So, California's water heaters don't have have conventional burners. They have burners that look like a box or long tub made of what looks like metal window screen material and/or they have some type of rod that is directly in the flame that is supposed to reduced the Nitrogen Oxides. Force air furnaces also have these rods. Less heat goes out the smoke pipe and the water heaters are suppose to be more-efficient. I think!


Fixed it for ya! :thumbup:


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## cdkyle (Jul 12, 2009)

Heck, the United States Postal Service does piece work. Albeit they are salaried employees, when the workers finish their route, they get to go home. 

Also, many government agencies pay by salary. And when/if their employees have overtime, they do not receive more pay. They are given "comp" time.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

pcplumber said:


> In California the natural gas water heaters are about $480 because they have a nitrogen oxide system on them. Add 10% sales tax, some parts and the total cost is close to $600. Add $250 for the percent I pay for installation and the cost is $850. So, my gross income is $400 and then deduct about $250 for advertising, matching payroll taxes, and all the other overhead. My net profit is about $150 to $200 and I don't think that is a lot of money. I could lower the percent I pay to $100 or $150 but the $250 I pay is one of those things that I feel perks the employees to offset days when things don't work so well. I don't always try to come out on the top.
> 
> Most plumbers in California are charging $1050, some $850, and I am positive I close a higher percent of water heaters for the $1250.


Thanks for the explanation Leonard.

It's crazy what you guys have to deal with in California. I spoke with a manufacturing rep on water heaters the other day. He said the government is forcing all of them to get another 2% efficiency rating. That means increased prices and more sensitive power vents to repair and different parts to carry on the trucks.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Oconomowoc said:


> Thanks for the explanation Leonard.
> 
> It's crazy what you guys have to deal with in California. I spoke with a manufacturing rep on water heaters the other day. He said the government is forcing all of them to get another 2% efficiency rating. That means increased prices and more sensitive power vents to repair and different parts to carry on the trucks.


If they are so worried about the efficiency of gas water heaters, then they should totally outlaw electric W/H's. How about the greenhouse gases produced by the power companies to make the electricity for those beasts?!?

Wow, talk about fftopic: .... Sorry Jake, I couldn't help myself. :blink:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Ahh!!!


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

CompleteW&D said:


> If they are so worried about the efficiency of gas water heaters, then they should totally outlaw electric W/H's. How about the greenhouse gases produced by the power companies to make the electricity for those beasts?!?
> 
> Wow, talk about fftopic: .... Sorry Jake, I couldn't help myself. :blink:


Better yet outlaw electricity.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

So is anyone going to answer the question or are we going to argue over water heaters?


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Does anyone* here* pay an employee salary pay?


BamBam....To be *almost precise*, yes I know many construction firms that pay salary (often to office personnel).

(I say almost precise, because they are not *here*, but I'll go get them if it will appease you.

*Question answered*...Sorry we digressed and did not precisely answer your question.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

You have our permission to pay salary


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Unless he is in management or sales you cannot make him salary. Any field work would disqualify him for OT exemption.





Oconomowoc said:


> Pay people hourly. Manage them well. Supply them with what they need. Foster a great company culture. Know and communicate well. And have fun doing it. Those kind of places are RARE, they are the companies that people dream of working for.





BamBamm5144 said:


> Does anyone here pay an employee salary pay?





BamBamm5144 said:


> So is anyone going to answer the question or are we going to argue over water heaters?


I thought it had been answered? Are you just waiting for another question to be answered or just the right answer? I am confused.

No, I don't pay labor salary, you can't. They are not overtime exempt. If you plan to have them work in the field at all, they will have to paid hourly.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

put everyone on a more ''equal''footing


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> If I got to decide, it would have been closed.
> 
> However, I do get to voice my opinion as to the timing.
> 
> ...


My CPA and the audit my last employer went through would tell you are wrong. 

I only know two superintendents who are hourly, the rest, including my brother are salary. He is management and has the decision of when he needs to work overtime. Any management position that can decide when overtime is needed (supers, PMs) can be salary.

Lots of supers still bag up pretty regular, this is not Harvey Cleary ,dude. Their jobs are to get the job done on time and on budget, so field work is a must in a small resi firm. Even medium commercial companies. 

Point is, trimming a house, doing some excavation, framing or building cabinets does not disqualify a superintendent from salary. If it wasnt, my ex boss would been heavily fined.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> My CPA and the audit my last employer went through would tell you are wrong.
> 
> I only know two superintendents who are hourly, the rest, including my brother are salary. He is management and has the decision of when he needs to work overtime. Any management position that can decide when overtime is needed (supers, PMs) can be salary.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter to me what one CPA has to say. I am sure that there were plenty of CPA's working for ENRON.

Blue Collar Workers
The exemptions provided by FLSA Section 13(a)(1) apply only to “white collar” employees who meet the salary and duties tests set forth in the Part 541 regulations. The exemptions do not apply to manual laborers or other “blue collar” workers who perform work involving repetitive operations with their hands, physical skill and energy. FLSA-covered, non-management employees in production, maintenance, construction and similar occupations such as carpenters, electricians, mechanics, plumbers, iron workers, craftsmen, operating engineers, longshoremen, construction workers and laborers are entitled to minimum wage and overtime premium pay under the FLSA, and are not exempt under the Part 541 regulations no matter how highly paid they might be.

You can read the entire document here as well as look at each category that they list as exempt.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17a_overview.htm

I can only tell you what the law says, if a ruling has been made, then either it was not in their major responsibility or the entire picture was not given to the auditor.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It doesn't matter to me what one CPA has to say. I am sure that there were plenty of CPA's working for ENRON.
> 
> Blue Collar Workers
> The exemptions provided by FLSA Section 13(a)(1) apply only to “white collar” employees who meet the salary and duties tests set forth in the Part 541 regulations. The exemptions do not apply to manual laborers or other “blue collar” workers who perform work involving repetitive operations with their hands, physical skill and energy. FLSA-covered, non-management employees in production, maintenance, construction and similar occupations such as carpenters, electricians, mechanics, plumbers, iron workers, craftsmen, operating engineers, longshoremen, construction workers and laborers are entitled to minimum wage and overtime premium pay under the FLSA, and are not exempt under the Part 541 regulations no matter how highly paid they might be.
> ...


 

Whatever Rob. .

Supers dont get hourly. Im not paying 40 + an hour and benifits for anyone. Truck, gas, cell, vacation, tools and 45k + bonuses is pretty good for a small patatoe resi outfit like mine. I wish I had got all that when I started this ****er. ..

CPA is retired from Brown and Root, many audits. Im ready for mine :thumbsup:

A superintendent is not a field hand. But a good one will get his hands dirty. :thumbsup:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It doesn't matter to me what one CPA has to say. I am sure that there were plenty of CPA's working for ENRON.
> 
> Blue Collar Workers
> The exemptions provided by FLSA Section 13(a)(1) apply only to “white collar” employees who meet the salary and duties tests set forth in the Part 541 regulations. The exemptions do not apply to manual laborers or other “blue collar” workers who perform work involving repetitive operations with their hands, physical skill and energy. FLSA-covered, non-management employees in production, maintenance, construction and similar occupations such as carpenters, electricians, mechanics, plumbers, iron workers, craftsmen, operating engineers, longshoremen, construction workers and laborers are entitled to minimum wage and overtime premium pay under the FLSA, and are not exempt under the Part 541 regulations no matter how highly paid they might be.
> ...


A super is not hired for any of the above. They do it when it is needed. I do the same


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> A super is not hired for any of the above. They do it when it is needed. I do the same


Then we agree. If their primary duty is not to swing a hammer and they are not required to do so, but do so at will, then they can be paid salary. However if their primary duty is to swing a hammer to get the job done then they are not exempt. This is a protection so that an employer does take advantage of the situation and have someone work overtime and not pay them. You can whatever me like a teenage girl all you want, I am just providing the facts. Don't kill the messenger. I didn't tell you how to do anything.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Here is one opinion on a request made by an employer concerning their super. It's pretty clear that because their primary role was supervisory and had control of hiring and firing they were OT exempt.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/opinion/FLSANA/2009/2009_01_15_01NA_FLSA.htm


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

My real point is just because you call someone a super, doesn't make them one. There are criteria for making someone OT exempt. The OP said nothing of management or administrative, so back to the OP. You cannot make a roofer salary.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Then we agree. If their primary duty is not to swing a hammer and they are not required to do so, but do so at will, then they can be paid salary. However if their primary duty is to swing a hammer to get the job done then they are not exempt..


I don't think it is as :black and white" as you propose, here.

Employees are paid by the hour and the execs., (supers) are paid salary.

The execs/admins also "qualify" for "bonuses" as per their performance.

Not for nothin', Rob:

...but I think you're being a bit dogmatic about this.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tenon0774 said:


> I don't think it is as :black and white" as you propose, here.
> 
> Employees are paid by the hour and the execs., (supers) are paid salary.
> 
> ...


Supers are not considered execs, but admins. See the two links I provided. There is a difference. Another reason I would trust someone's opinion on the matter when they lump the two together. One link specifically states that they are not exec exempt. But, I am not going to continue to repeat what the labor laws state and what their opinions indicate. You can read them for yourself.

I am just giving you what the laws say. And for the most part it's pretty black and white. A super is administrative exempt as long as their primary duties are to supervise and they have some power in the hiring, firing and selection of employees and subs. If they happen to help finish a project or have to get their hands dirty, it would be considered an exception to their job description.

However the laws are pretty specific that it doesn't matter what you compensate them or how big a bonus they get, they have to meet certain criteria to be OT exempt. In fact bonuses may be calculated in their wages to determine actual OT rates. So even bonuses are covered under the law.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

If I hire an Asian hooker can I pay her a salary or do I need to do it by the hour?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> If I hire an Asian hooker can I pay her a salary or do I need to do it by the* hour*?


I just guessing "hour" is a typo & you really meant "minute(s)"...:whistling


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Yeaaaaaah.......I really set myself up on that didn't I?


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Oconomowoc said:


> If I hire an Asian hooker can I pay her a salary or do I need to do it by the hour?


:laughing:

It depends on how "sweetly" you talk to her...

:laughing:

...well that, and "holding" her passport doesn't hurt either. :whistling


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Here's the deal

I talked to Kristie, my wife.....who is an accountant for a large firm. 

First off, there's a ton of rules, exceptions, loopholes etc. You have to be very careful what position you call it and the nature of the work. 

Her previous employer got in very big trouble on this topic she said. They had a salesman who was hourly and a salesman who was salary. They decided not to pay overtime to somebody and he/she called the IRS.

They got busted. You can't split positions and pay overtime to hourly and not to a salary person who does the same job. That triggered an audit and they had to shell out over a 100K to the employees. 

According to her, you need to be dam careful if you have multiple people roofing and getting paid hourly and a salary guy picks up a hammer and starts slinging nails.

There's more but I ignored her. I had her read Rob's stuff and she agreed with Rob but said there's so many loopholes in the system you could potentially, and legally find a solution.

My advice. Go out and find a **** ton of work and treat him well. Pay him well. Problem solved. The rest of the world seems to make this work ok.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Dear Lord, she's opening up her tax books.......


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Yup. Robs right. He doesn't legally qualify for Salary.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Supers are not considered execs, but admins. See the two links I provided. There is a difference. Another reason I would trust someone's opinion on the matter when they lump the two together. One link specifically states that they are not exec exempt. But, I am not going to continue to repeat what the labor laws state and what their opinions indicate. You can read them for yourself.
> 
> I am just giving you what the laws say. And for the most part it's pretty black and white. A super is administrative exempt as long as their primary duties are to supervise and they have some power in the hiring, firing and selection of employees and subs. If they happen to help finish a project or have to get their hands dirty, it would be considered an exception to their job description.
> 
> However the laws are pretty specific that it doesn't matter what you compensate them or how big a bonus they get, they have to meet certain criteria to be OT exempt. In fact bonuses may be calculated in their wages to determine actual OT rates. So even bonuses are covered under the law.


Supers are administration my azz. Ive been a super. A REAL super. Admin was an afterthought ,i was building banks and remodeling high rise floors:thumbup:

Teeenage girl my azz. :thumbsup:


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Supers are not considered execs, but admins. See the two links I provided. There is a difference. Another reason I would trust someone's opinion on the matter when they lump the two together. One link specifically states that they are not exec exempt. But, I am not going to continue to repeat what the labor laws state and what their opinions indicate. You can read them for yourself.
> 
> 
> I read them, before I posted.
> ...


Sorry man, 

You're either:

Pre-Law

or 

Democratic.

:whistling


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

A supers job is to "make it rain" . My brother does that. I dont give two chits about how he does it.


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