# Old Barn Conversion Nightmare- HELP!



## charford (Apr 22, 2007)

I got a job converting an old corn crib into a loft apartment, and this is posing several problems for me since this is so clearly not the purpose of corn cribs, and the owners want to keep costs very low.  
This particular crib has a 29 x 40 footprint with 12 foot high exterior walls. The structure has an incredible 20 foot gambeled roof which provides a massive amount of interior space for a loft. We are going to jack up the crib and repour a new exterior foundation, and basically gut the whole interior putting a 40 ft LVL beam the length of the barn down the middle with 4 anchored posts supporting the beam. The base will then be filled with gravel and topped with a 4 in floating slab to create the garage level floor. The second floor (main floor of the apartment) will basically be wide open to the ceiling with a couple bedrooms and a 3rd story loft approximately half the distance of the barn- making the rather large cupola accessible. 

Several problems, currently are interior walls that we would be tearing down and replacing with the center LVL (The barn was originally build to store 10,000 bushels of grain in interior bins, this support will not really be necessary. 




Here are my thoughts, build the first floor obviously on the exterior walls supported by the LVL. Build the second floor loft on top of the bedrooms and extend it out about halfway. There are kicker supports from the corners of the gambrel roof. I figured I would just header those off and half the barn the headers would be supported by the second floor walls and then just span the rest of the distance with a couple support beams. Not sure about any of this yet but it is not yet the heart of my problem.


I do not even know where to begin with insulation and ventilation. The roof of my barn is the majority of the area and it is steel with crossway 2x4’s spaced about 2 inches apart each, and then fastened to the 2x4 rafters. So basically looking at the roof from the inside the metal roof is visible in the spaces between the crossway 2x4 backing. Obviously there is going to be all kinds of problems when insulating because this will be climate controlled with would cause all kinds of condensation/general moisture/etc. since there is no OSB or tar paper or anything underneath the metal roof. I am not sure if just using baffles/vapor barrior/fiberglass insulation/drywall will be effective- or if the roof could even support hanging drywall from the whole thing. I in no way need to conserve the natural barn look, so I was thinking about spray foam insulation.

Could I just spray that directly onto the roof and solve all my problems? Is it possible to sand and paint that so as not to have to use drywall? If that is sprayed onto the ceiling wouldn’t condensation form underneath the wooden roof causing the backing or rafters to rot from moisture?

I have seen spray insulation sites claiming that absolutely no ventilation would be needed and they are complete solutions, but I find that a little hard to swallow, still if that is true I could leave the interior rafters exposed- and even better if I could finish and paint the cured foam there would be no need for drywall (which I am fairly confident the roof could never hold anyways).


Even if any of this is true, the rafters are only made of 2x4's so how could I even think of providing insulation requirements and ventilation requirements. The budget does not really permit for the removal of the metal roofing. I thought about furring strips but I would need to put like 2x8 furring strips to get the required R38. I am not sure if this additional weight would be supported. Maybe I could only vault the ceilings on about half the structure and then frame in a very small attick like structure on the loft half? Still, 2x8 furring strips!!! come on is that even possible! Maybe replace sheetrock with a foam insulation board, but can that be finished on the inside, ie painted plastered or anything?

I was thinking about making a gambrel truss design that provided sort of a false ceiling, but didnt take away much headroom- but the owners are verrrrrry picky about their vaulted ceilings, and don't want to lose the towering spaces barn look thing. 

I would greatly appreciate any help you could give me!

Thanks.

PS I have to do the ENTIRE barn restoration for under 50,000, my cost. The things you do for family members.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

This construction type is not really covered in the IRC. Has this remodel gone through plan review? Any permits yet? This unusual type of work normally requires an engineer's seal on a print or two before your inspector's are going to buy off on it.


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## woodmagman (Feb 17, 2007)

You sound like you have a plan of attack......how does the General contractor want it done?


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## charford (Apr 22, 2007)

_"This construction type is not really covered in the IRC. Has this remodel gone through plan review? Any permits yet? This unusual type of work normally requires an engineer's seal on a print or two before your inspector's are going to buy off on it"

_No plan review, permits, etc. we are talking very early stages- planning etc. As far as permits go, it is not a major issue around here they are very leanient on farmers- especially when it is only a remodelling job. You are right about probably needing a structural engineer to sign off, but again, early stages. 

_You sound like you have a plan of attack......how does the General contractor want it done?

_You are looking at the general contractor- but in all reality I am a landscape contractor. I will be doing this work for a family member- I am also a farmer so there is no shortage of equiptment, labor, and know-how floating around. Basically If i can get all the planning stages figured out ahead of time, and get through the planning and zoning office with no major bruises- I think the work should be pretty managable. 

Current problems--

Insulation and ventilation with only 2X4 rafters to work with. (SIP's are going to be way out of budget)

I think I have got a pretty good handle of the interior structure. I am going to use a Post and Beam structure inside the barn framework to support the building and give the home a rustic look and feel. This is just a matter of picking a design, referencing the codebook, and getting the building inspectors approval. How much does it usually cost to have a structural engineer review and sign off on a building design?

Alterations to foundation- The current foundation is in fantastic shape, however, it is only 12 inches deep (Code in Northern Illinois is upwards of 30 in). Jacking up the building and replacing the foundation isnt a huge hassle being we have the equiptment and significant experience- but it seems like a waste to tear out a pretty decent foundation. The post and beam interior structure will be supported by pier foundations on the interior structure. My thoughts for the outer wall foundations- relace a section of the current foundation every 10 feet or so with a 3 ft deep pillar. My predicimate- I'm not sure if this is legal or up to code. Also, how do you secure the existing foundation to the newly poured pillars, and will the frost still heave under the old foundation causing the building to faulted in spite of the new pillars?


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

Im prety sure I wouldn't want to set foot in a building whos roof couldnt even support the weight of drywall. Does it snow where this is located?


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

charford said:


> _
> 
> Current problems--
> 
> ...


_


Icynene should be suitable for your insulation, it will have to be thicker that the 2 X4 framing but is supposed to work well in such situations.

www.icynene.com

Frost can cause the foundation to fail, consider underpinning the entire thing to be on the safe side.

A structural engineer is where you need to start, only by asking one that you are comfortable working with, will you know what it will cost....I would get referrals to someone very good who may have done something similar in the past. 

You don't want this size building falling down in a stiff wind. _


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## woodmagman (Feb 17, 2007)

By saying that around your area they don't care how it is built or that the framing just does not matter. 
After all the framing is just the structure and not as imortant as the foundation. Your right, why should any area be concerned about that, just build it anyway you want then, if nobody is going to follow up to see if it is built according to plan.......
The preconcieved notion that you are doing something correct because you think it is, is a good way to learn how to do it twice.....permits and ispectors are not there to see you fail, they are there to see you succeed.....


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## charford (Apr 22, 2007)

Why does everyone on this forum automatically assume you are an idiot.

Obviously I am going to beef up the frame to support whatever loads need to be supported- I already said an engineer was going to be consulted after the plans are drawn up to double check everything.

The fact of the matter is they arent strict about permits, inspections and the like around here. I plan on bringing the project up to code because mininum code isnt that strict in the first place- I dont plan on building a ****ty structure. The fact of the matter is this is in the early stages- I am trying to get some ideas about how I can approach some of these problems to help me get through the planning phases. 

If you arent going to post something useful-dont post, and don't assume nobody knows what they are doing except for you. I've built and refinished too many houses,barns,bins,offices,etc etc etc- obviously I am not going to build something that is going to fall over in the wind- and obviously I am going to get the checkoffs that I need to get. In my last posts I can could how many times I have referenced the fact that I WILL be double checked by an engineer, I WILL be going to planning and zoning, I WILL be working with the building inspector, and I have continually references the fact that I will be working off the code as a guideline.

That being said thanks for the reply tgeb, I have looked into icynene and other spray foams. I dont think they are going to be realistic because they are cost prohibitive, and eveything that I have read suggests using half pound foam on ceilings---unfortunatly half pound foam only has an R value in the 4 range that would be 9 or so inches of foam to bring the ceiling up to CODE which is R38 around these parts. That would be a huuuuuge expense, messy, and cause a host of other problems


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

charford said:


> Why does everyone on this forum automatically assume you are an idiot.
> 
> - I already said an engineer was going to be consulted after the plans are drawn up to double check everything.
> 
> ...



Sorry you got offended, did not intend to do so.

What I am trying to get across to you is that consulting with an engineer on the front end could save you money by having him help you with the design.

The engineer can give you input as to the least expensive way to address any issues you may have. If you consult him last he will simply make sure that your design is beefed up enough to be sound, regardless of whether it is the most efficient design.

I see all the time where people are shocked at what it will cost to build something a particular way, then the structural engineer will say "if we can move this wall, or add a post here, it can save you X-$$$", then the Home owner looks at the architect and asks why he designed it to be so expensive.

Oh, and you referenced the engineer twice: 



> You are right about probably needing a structural engineer to sign off, but again, early stages.
> 
> How much does it usually cost to have a structural engineer review and sign off on a building design?


You have a very interesting project on your hands, good luck with it.
Post some photos if you get a chance.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

The continual mention of items being out of budget is not promising...at all. I know how it is to work for family, but don't cut corners. If your uncle ends up living in this corn crib converted to house, and it fails, neices and nephews could be crushed. Worst case is renting to non-family who gets hurt who then proceeds to sue for the family farm b/c of non-approved building practices being followed. I highly recommend having an engineer come in and inspect the structure to determine if it is sound enough to work with. 

regarding the 'good' existing foundation. can you pour a new proper foundation/slab and pick up and move the crib onto this foundation? Do so directly attached to existing pour-then the 'old' foundation can be used for a garage and their is no need need to raise the current crib (creates a ranch like house). 

If you're doing all the labor yourself, $50k will go a long way on materials for a small simple house. Engineers fee's could be 5k, but given that your trying to make a house out of something that was never intended to be such, that's part of the cost. Do not let uncle Joe tell you he wants something done...find out the proper way to do so and proceed. 

Good luck.


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## charford (Apr 22, 2007)

Yeah I was kind of coming to the conclusion of moving the crib and repouring. We have moved sheds and bins before and have the equiptment so I think this would be the easier thing. It will be alot easier to pour a new concrete with out monkeying around with the building in the way. 

I'm not sure if it is possible or not but I thought about underpinning with piers, I'm not sure if this would end up being easier or harder though- and for this I would probably need to hire a foundation guy.

I am taking the hint to have an engineer out- he will examine the current structure and tell me what things will have to change etc etc. Still kind of lost on house to insualte the place!

One of the reasons I even decided to work on this was because I have done alot of work with older farmhouses- ones that have been standing for hundreds of years. This particular crib is only 70 or so years old and it is in fantastic shape. The foundation is better than farmhouses I have worked on. The frame is very heavy duty (because it had to hold 10,000 bu of grain, and the wood is in excellent tradition. There (at least from my inspection) seems to be only a few failing boards - The lumber is all rough cut, true sized, weathered lumber, and the location is gorgeous. I have looked into the costs of barn conversions and most people say it is more expensive per square foot that new construction if all the work is contracted out. I figure we got some know how, friends of every different variety of contractor, time, labor, equiptment, there is no reason to make this a bank breaking project.

My guess is an engineer will be first on the agenda- I have a couple friends that I graduated college with that are civil, mechanical, and construction management engineers who I will consult first, but I will still consult someone who does this for a living.


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