# Yup...wood fired oven



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

It's a little different than most so I'm hoping someone can give me some insight. This is what i'm working with. I have the structural pad poured but not the insulating pad and the bricks are all full size because it's just for layout at the moment.





The oven is going to be quite small I realise that and am OK with it. I'm sure i would be happier with a larger oven but I'll be glad to have anything really. That said, I want to make it as large as possible. So, would a 2.25" thick (firebrick laid as a shiner, or a header) be enough. That while it wouldn't be a huge gain it would be better than nothing. the other thing I could do would be 3"= 1/3 of a stretcher or 1.5 shiners, not fun all that cutting but that extra 1/3 of strength seems significant to me. The narrower i make the walls the taller I'll have to make the rise of the vault to lessen the thrust.

next...On advice from you guys I've made the floor of the oven quite high, it's @ 44" at the structural pad and if i go 3.5" of insulating pad and another 2.5" of firebrick and fireclay, that brings it to 52" . That seemed alright on paper but 44" is seeming pretty high right now (granted I'm 4-5 " below finished grade right now because flagstone isn't in yet so maybe that's it but even when i stand on the pad it seems high). So IF i feel like the floor of the oven will be too high and i want to lower it a couple inches do you think that 2" of perlcrete would be sufficient or what about going with splits for the floor? 

And lastly. As you can see to try and save room i've got the front as a barrel vault and the back as a dome....so what I'm wondering is am I out to lunch? Also, should i make the rear a dome or build it up straight and bring the arch of the vault into it? it will mean some compound angle cutting, mostly by guess and by gosh but I'm into it now.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Keep us posted, I got nothing for ya though


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

Have never built one so no advice for you bud sorry, but when I do I will be going of the advice given in these posts, look forward to the progress pics and advice.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

When ya finish it think up a ball park price of what you would charge to build one.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

If that is the cross section laid out (as well as the plan), I would bring the spring line down to one brick high, unless the floor is inside, in which case bring it down to 1-1/2 brick. 2-1/2 is fine for an occasional use oven, no problem there. If what you have ends up too high, build a step in front; best of both worlds, no bending to look in, and you can stand on the step to work it.

I think you should definitely go with the dome back wall, someone has to the first. I have considered it myself.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

No it isn't a cross section but it would be close. Haven't thought tons about how much to raise the walls before the spring, somewhere between 4.5" and 9". if the dome rises by 8" (what the 'rise" of that semi circle is now) that would might work for a 6.75" wall. Give me enough room for a leg of lamb but not too much volume to heat


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> ... Give me enough room for a leg of lamb but not too much volume to heat....


Dam does that sound good.....Great idea...:thumbsup:

Just build the thing & cook in it...:thumbup:

Check these guys out. It's a mobile true wood fired oven. They make the most incredible pizza. Not all that big either, but they do crank out the pizza. I'll see them this weekend and ask about other goodies in the oven....

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rosies-Inferno-Mobile-Wood-Fired-Pizza/268536845382


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## pdmig (Nov 21, 2010)

There is a specific ratio for the dome height and the door height that is critical for a good burn. It is something like 1.6-1. I made mine with a 16" high dome and a 10" high door and it burns fine. I have a barrel to the back but a dome in the back sounds great. 

If you can lay it out to cook two pizzas at a time it is good for when there are lots of people over. The insulation is important if you are going to bake. For just pizzas a smaller insulation is OK. I think I made mine around 40" high. A bit low but easy to see the pizzas from a step back. You will get used to whatever you end up with.

I need to keep a fire going to cook the pizza, kind of like a broiler. So remember to leave enough space for the fire. I think I added a bit to the end of mine at the build to make room for the fire.

Remember done is right. There are lots of blogs on building and several books. One key that I kept in mind is to keep the oven part completely isolated from any structure. You need to allow for expansion and contraction because the bricks will glow with heat! I separated everything with the perlite. I hade to rebuild the entry arch with refractory cement as the fire clay did not hold up so do that the first time. 

Good luck and enjoy. I will share my dough recipe when you are closer.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Thanks. 63% or /1.6 opening to dome height is the number that Forno bravo uses and all the guys who have built them adhere to that and it seems to work well, so i won't monkey with that.

i agree, done is done and better than not done. I will have a minimum of 3" of perlcrete insulation at one or 2 spots because of the semi-circle inside a triangle business but I'll mostly have 5" around the walls and then as much as i can on top.

Bond breaks will be a for sure. And i'm hoping to be able to fire 2 10" pizzas and maybe 1 8" but even if i can do 2 8" at a time that gets a bunch of kids done and fed fairly quick and the grown ups can just wait and drink

we''ve been doing pizza in the oven most fridays for about 4 or 5 years so I have a decent dough recipe but post up your's I'm sure the wood fired dough @ 700*+ will be different from the oven baked at 450


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> It's a little different than most so I'm hoping someone can give me some insight. This is what i'm working with. I have the structural pad poured but not the insulating pad and the bricks are all full size because it's just for layout at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


44" was recommended as a finished hearth height, Sean. But it sounds like you will be in good shape after the patio goes in. 

You won't need to raise the height of the dome to counter thrust if you put a reinforced cladding over it. It will also add some mass, but you're talking about a fairly thin oven dome anyway. 

I'll second the domed back, I think it would look cool. I've seen it done with fireboxes but never on an oven vault.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Thanks. 63% or /1.6 opening to dome height is the number that Forno bravo uses and all the guys who have built them adhere to that and it seems to work well, so i won't monkey with that.
> *theres a bit more flexibility than that. 60%-64%*
> 
> i agree, done is done and better than not done. I will have a minimum of 3" of perlcrete insulation at one or 2 spots because of the semi-circle inside a triangle business but I'll mostly have 5" around the walls and then as much as i can on top.
> ...


 Forgot to mention, you should have more than 2" of perlcrete under the hearth...4" is a good minimum. If you use ceramic board or foam glas that's a different story..2" is fine.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> Forgot to mention, you should have more than 2" of perlcrete under the hearth...4" is a good minimum. If you use ceramic board or foam glas that's a different story..2" is fine.


Thanks for that. I'll go for 4".

I thought when we were talking in Bytors thread that everyone was saying that 48" was too low and they would have rather had the floor higher


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Weird, i can't find the thread where i talked about floor heights. I thought it was Bytors or maybe yours but I don't see it in either one. 44", where it is now seems like it would be a good height


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> You won't need to raise the height of the dome to counter thrust if you put a reinforced cladding over it. It will also add some mass, but you're talking about a fairly thin oven dome anyway.


Ok, so a 9" wall with an 8" rise for the vault...sounds good or too much...or not enough?

reinforced cladding meaning perlcrete with wire? or just perlcrete/vermicrete?


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Ok, so a 9" wall with an 8" rise for the vault...sounds good or too much...or not enough?
> 
> reinforced cladding meaning perlcrete with wire? or just perlcrete/vermicrete?



Sounds ok to me. There a lot of forgiveness as far as actual shape goes.

No, perl/vermicrete won't make a structural cladding, too friable.....but a reinforced layer of fire mortar or refractory will do the trick.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Maybe I'll make the dome height work to a good opening size.

How thick a layer do you think i'd need to add some structure to the thing. heatstop 50 isn't cheap. Would i need wire also do you think? 

I'm kind of leaning towards a a 3" structure. I'd still have a reasonable amount of insulation at the thinnest spot and while it's more cutting I'm just a bit nervous about an arch made of such flimsy material. 

So long as i know that I need to do min 4" of insulating slab i can carry on with that and lay the floor anyhow


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Maybe I'll make the dome height work to a good opening size.
> 
> How thick a layer do you think i'd need to add some structure to the thing. heatstop 50 isn't cheap. Would i need wire also do you think?
> 
> ...


Make your own fire mortar out of lime, portland, fireclay and sand...guys on FB go 1:1:1:3 but I think it's way too rich. I went close to 5 parts sand, and I cut the portland portion in half. 1/2"-1" will be just fine for cladding.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Use the scratch refractory mortar for the cladding. I have made cubes and tested them in both the oven and bonfires, they do just fine. For laying the brick, however, Heatstop is worth the money. You can do 4" vermi/perlcrete then stucco over that for an igloo shape or as a monocoque shell if you do not want the extra cladding on the oven itself.

Some reading I have been doing leads me to believe that there has been a misunderstanding at what temperature portland cement reverts to it's constituent parts. I have had portland plant lab engineers tell me "500 degrees" is when portland cement begins to fail, but I did not clarify centigrade or Fahrenheit. Some of the recent articles I have read give the number as 500 centigrade.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Oh yeah..it's 500 C, not F. 1200 F is what the original impure limestone needed to burn at to turn into whatever it's equivalent of quiclkime as opposed to 800F for marble or chalk. but i don't think it's just failing, it's it's ability to expand and contract and not crack, I think that up to 700* lime probably has the advantage over portland

That said a friend has an outdoor rotisserie that is made of brick and type S and the mortar is in terrible shape 15 years later and the bricks are cracked like crazy. Still useable though


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

How much of a covering of this mortar would i need to add strength? 1/2" anyway....I might still do the 3", who knows it could be less work in the long run


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Yeah the memory card that\s what i'm talking about. MAybe it's not a USB. Whatever the external memory is, the camera won't recognize it


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

You're saying your camera can store pictures on built-in memory or on the card, and you can only get it to store on the built-in memory? How old is the camera?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

correct. it's old for new things, new for old things. A little over 5 years old probably


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

dom-mas said:


> correct. it's old for new things, new for old things. A little over 5 years old probably


I have no help for you about the camera. I hope you figure it out, because I'd like to see the pictures.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Still no luck with the camera. It sucks cause it's the worst one we have.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

You have a smart phone? Snap a few pics with that.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I do, but I don't have a cord to attach it and I don't have a data plan. I'll find a camera soon. The first footing has been poured for the bridge and I'm finally starting a mildly interesting job so if i don't find a camera in the next week i'll buy one


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I just bought a USB card reader that reads every card known to man for seven bucks. I gave my camera a bath and needed to get the pics off the card.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Figured out the camera. I'm guessing that because it was lost ofr a while that when it got recharged it went into some sort of a default setting where it only looked at internal memory. I pushed a bunch of icons and one finally said settings. Searched around until I found memory and switched it over, pics tomorrow. 

I'm going to start either the 1/2 dome or the arch. I was going to do the 1/2 dome first since then I'd be able to joint easier but now i'm thinking that the vault would give me something to lay the dome to and give me a frame of reference for cuts. I guess i could just the end of my vault centre and add a 3" piece on top and lay the 1/2 dome to that. So long as it was in plane and plumb it should be good....right? Also will the 1/2 dome support itself if it isn't closed in? is fireclay a good enough glue to hold it temporarily if i don't finish it all in a day, I'm thinking it is but my entire thought process has always been to use the mortar to hold the units apart rather than to keep them together


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

pics so far. Nothing too great. i'm thinking I'm going to lay the barrel this evening. Got the center built now just waiting until it cools down outside to lay some up.

Can't say I'm all that crazy about Whiteacre Greer. these bricks vary by a good 1/8", in thickness and in length, 1/16 off in either direction...most are too thick though which is making layout with a tape annoying


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I'll get some more pics this eve after the barrel is up if it's not too dark. Hopefully I can start the segment of a dome tomorrow


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

WG bricks are one of the best around for a good conductivity number....you'll forget all about the size discrepancy when you're not scorching the bottoms of the pizza and bread.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

didn't end up doing much but layout tonight. Should start the vault tomorrow


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

stonecutter said:


> WG bricks are one of the best around for a good conductivity number....you'll forget all about the size discrepancy when you're not scorching the bottoms of the pizza and bread.


Can you explain about the conductivity number and different brick manufacturers to us lurkers?

I think from an excavator's point of view, fire brick are light tan and have no holes, didn't know there was more to it than that. :blink:

Thanks for the pics, Dom-as, looks like you are making good progress. :thumbsup:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

There are a couple different types of tan firebrick as well. One that is crisp and clean and another that is a crap pos in my opinion. I love it when I get some of one kind and some of another kind. I put them on my truck and bring them right back.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

tgeb said:


> Can you explain about the conductivity number and different brick manufacturers to us lurkers?
> 
> I think from an excavator's point of view, fire brick are light tan and have no holes, didn't know there was more to it than that. :blink:
> 
> Thanks for the pics, Dom-as, looks like you are making good progress. :thumbsup:


 Simply put, the more alumina in the brick, the higher the conductivity will be. A brick that is highly conductive will tend to burn pizza because of higher surface temperatures than a brick with lower alumina %....low duty brick tends to be less conductive than med duty brick, definitely less than high duty brick. WG is one of the lower ones out there with 0.69 W/mk. The density of each type of brick is a contributor to how heat is distributed, with high duty being the hardest, most dense...to low duty, which is softer and the least dense.....except for insulating firebrick, which is not used as theremal mass.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Interesting. I would have thought that the WG's would have a high alumina content. They are very dense (one of the heaviest per unit I've worked with) and brittle. Brittle generally means alumina to me. It does for limestone anyway


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Actually, come to think of it...the whiteacre are very brittle on the outside, but the inside is fairly crumbly.

SC...what do you say about leaving and unfinished dome for a while. I hope to get the barrel done today but i forgot about Garlicfest, so that will take up a good chunk of the day, (yesterday was basketball, last weekend was soccer, weekend before was the cottage, add that to the rain we've had every 3rd evening and it's no wonder this thing is over a monthe behind where I thought I'd be). 

Anyway, I know that once I get the dome started that I won't finish it in a day...so will HTC hold the brick up for days without any support underneath? With fireplaces nothing is less than 45* so i don't worry too much but after the 2nd course I think I'll be out of a horizontal plane


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Actually, come to think of it...the whiteacre are very brittle on the outside, but the inside is fairly crumbly.
> 
> SC...what do you say about leaving and unfinished dome for a while. I hope to get the barrel done today but i forgot about Garlicfest, so that will take up a good chunk of the day, (yesterday was basketball, last weekend was soccer, weekend before was the cottage, add that to the rain we've had every 3rd evening and it's no wonder this thing is over a monthe behind where I thought I'd be).
> 
> Anyway, I know that once I get the dome started that I won't finish it in a day...so will HTC hold the brick up for days without any support underneath? With fireplaces nothing is less than 45* so i don't worry too much but after the 2nd course I think I'll be out of a horizontal plane


Hey Sean,
The brittleness would indicated a less dense brick obviously...so there's more air in it, which will lower the conductivity of the material.

I've never had an issue leaving a dome that wasn't topped out, even an unfinished course...and I don't have centering that stays in place. What's HTC?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Brittleness....like it cleaves very sharply and cleanly. flint and chirt are very dense stones that are very brittle. Limestone with a high alumina content is usually very brittle. granite is also brittle compared to sandstone and is much denser

i actually totally revoke my comment about the WG bricks being brittle, I was just breaking some thin cuts apart by hand to use as wedges under my centre and they did not break cleanly at all...mostly crumbled, but not into tiny pieces

HTC...High Temp Cement


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Pretty funny hows alread black and you haven't even put the face on.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

I built mine in a very similar manner.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

It may not be necessary, but I'm going to do it anyway I'll probably cut all the brick until i get to the skewbacks, then i'll pour those weird areas. I have a bunch of castable refractory that's been hanging around a while, may as well use it


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm also thinking that since the rear is a segment of a dome that the front rolling a but will add to the dome type heat reflection that FB talks about so much. Whatever, it's just more work, and more cutting...YAY


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Either way, I'm sure you'll make it work. Don't hold your breath waiting for that mobile unit...I'll probably build my buddies oven before that happens. I still need to build my cabinet and set that stone slab, then lay the travertine patio.....


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

"Pretty funny hows alread black and you haven't even put the face on. "

I built in November. I built a fire in it as soon as I pulled the form (5 minutes after I finished it), and kept a fire going in it every time I worked on it. I wasn't curing it (I used heat set refractory though), I was warming my hands.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> "Pretty funny hows alread black and you haven't even put the face on. "
> 
> I built in November. I built a fire in it as soon as I pulled the form (5 minutes after I finished it), and kept a fire going in it every time I worked on it. I wasn't curing it (I used heat set refractory though), I was warming my hands.


It gets cold enough in Texas to need to warm your hands?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

When you are a sissy like me, sure. "Cold" means I have to wear long pants. "Real cold" means I have to wear shoes. "Freezing-ass cold" means I have to wear a shirt.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

After being in SC for 5 years, I'm beginning to understand that kind of cold. It's a little embarrassing, being from New England and temps in the 40s are starting to feel like winter.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Getting there, not really but every step forward is good. Making the dome is tougher than I thought, getting it to blend into the barrel is tough, too many square pieces in a round shape, plus that barrel is the most perfect thing I've ever done, rushing to finish by dark...Oh well.

I've got another 2 courses on now, this was from last week but it rained most of last week and the weekend was ominous. I'll take a pic next time


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Looking good Sean. You might have an easier time transitioning from the dome into the barrel if you bevel the vault brick. Just a thought.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> Looking good Sean. You might have an easier time transitioning from the dome into the barrel if you bevel the vault brick. Just a thought.


I'm bevelling the dome brick, it's just tough because the dome is round made from squares and the vault is round made with squares, I'm making the bevels by placing the bricks as close to the vault as i can and tipping them until they follow the cuve closely, then marking them to follow the plane of the vault but since I can't get them in the exact spot I have to compensate a bit and sometimes too much, sometimes not enough. Alsothe dome increases in height quickly and gets tighter very quickly as well, I'm losing 1 3/4 bricks per course on average, 

it's just a lot of cutting, which i hate...did i mention that yet


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Just a couple times.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Do you use a miter saw?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

No, I've been using a grinder, i remember you sayig that about that herringbone box you just did...great idea, but it's a compound angle and I can't really mark it until it's cut, then i see if it works and adjust as necessary. very non technical bushleague sh!t


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

All you need are 1/2s, 1/3s, and a few 1/4s (and without the domed section, just halves). Just bang them out with your brick set and put the rough edge on the outside.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

So getting back at it. I guess I forgot to update before winter. The dome is closed in, and last weekend i built the lower arch of the facing material (the arch for the wood storage). I did that because I need to corbel the brick out to have more room for a landing. In retrospect I could have cantilevered the structural slab but then I would have had to corbel the bricks under it anyway and that would have been a pain. i guess this is what happens when you design in 2012, pour a pad in 2013, and don't start building until 2014 by which time the plans have long since disappeared. Oh well. 

All this to say that I've corbeled the brick and am now in position to build the landing and throat , chimney etc...I'll also be able to build up the sides pour some perlcrete and have an insulated oven ready to cook. My plan for that is by the May long weekend. 

So my next question is about the smoke chamber or whatever it's called above the throat, and how big a flue do I need. Flue area the same 10% ratio to opening as a fireplace? And the smoke chamber, can it be a straight shot up or should it angle in the same as a fireplace? I'll only have room to angle it in on the sides and only by 2" either side at most. If i do that I'll end up with a throat that is 13" wide by 4.5" deep Yay, Nay, indifferent? And if I do angle it in how high should I take it before starting the flue?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Who am I to give advice, but Matt had said the throat needs to be as wide as the opening, then what would look like a high velocity angle until you get to your 10 1/2" inside dimension for the 8x12. An 8x8 would be too small I think.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I was looking at his site and he had said that the throat should be 60-75% of the opening width and the depth of the throat should be about 50% of that. 

i think an 8x8 would be too big, way too big. Forno bravo says that anything smaller than a 32" should be 6" (round? or square? they don't say) That said i can't get anything smaller than 8x8 (more like 7x7 inside dimension) so I may build the flue out of some crappy old firebrick i have (even crappier than the chipped firebrick I used for most of my build)


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## mako1 (Sep 1, 2013)

oh yeah.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Yup...that's a big bagel


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> I was looking at his site and he had said that the throat should be 60-75% of the opening width and the depth of the throat should be about 50% of that.
> 
> i think an 8x8 would be too big, way too big. Forno bravo says that anything smaller than a 32" should be 6" (round? or square? they don't say) That said i can't get anything smaller than 8x8 (more like 7x7 inside dimension) so I may build the flue out of some crappy old firebrick i have (even crappier than the chipped firebrick I used for most of my build)


I would think the throat would need to be the same width as the opening otherwise you will have a flat spot on each side no?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

hmmmm. So my outer arch is 1" wider than the inner arch (so I have the reveal for the door to sit against), the 1st brick after the skew back will have a taper cut into it or something to that effect anyway, and then the bricks directly on top of that will also have the an angle cut in (or laid at an angle or something I'll know when i see it. that way the throat is narrower than the opening. if the throat were the same size as the opening it would be square up from the bottom of the arch.

Just so we're on the same page. What I'm calling the opening is the opening into the firebox. The throat is the opening just before the flue starts. Then there is the vent....and I'm not sure if that is the entire area just outside the firebox opening or if it is the initial opening leading towards the throat. But maybe the throat is that first opening


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> hmmmm. So my outer arch is 1" wider than the inner arch (so I have the reveal for the door to sit against), the 1st brick after the skew back will have a taper cut into it or something to that effect anyway, and then the bricks directly on top of that will also have the an angle cut in (or laid at an angle or something I'll know when i see it. that way the throat is narrower than the opening. if the throat were the same size as the opening it would be square up from the bottom of the arch.
> 
> Just so we're on the same page. What I'm calling the opening is the opening into the firebox. The throat is the opening just before the flue starts. Then there is the vent....and I'm not sure if that is the entire area just outside the firebox opening or if it is the initial opening leading towards the throat. But maybe the throat is that first opening


I think you're just fine with an 8" flue Sean. Better to air on the bigger side than making it too small....not that a 6" flue would be a problem either.

A lot of guys call the throat (of an oven) the vent...the opening and transition 
(To the flue) in the apex of the entry arch. Opening is usually called oven opening, to differentiate between the throat opening and entry opening.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Ok so the throat/vent is the transition between the opening and the flue. So... does it need to be tapered or can it be straight. And when you talked about the 60-75% and the 30-50% was that the beginning of the transition or the final size? Obviously if I go with an 8x8 my finished size will have to be that or smaller. I'm thinking that throat will start at 13" wide x4.5" deep and transition to 8" wide by 4'5" deep with either an 8x8 on top or a flue built from firebrick. 

A big flue won't make for a lazy draught?


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Ok so the throat/vent is the transition between the opening and the flue. So... does it need to be tapered or can it be straight. And when you talked about the 60-75% and the 30-50% was that the beginning of the transition or the final size? Obviously if I go with an 8x8 my finished size will have to be that or smaller. I'm thinking that throat will start at 13" wide x4.5" deep and transition to 8" wide by 4'5" deep with either an 8x8 on top or a flue built from firebrick.
> 
> A big flue won't make for a lazy draught?


The percentages are for the initial opening. Usually transitions aren't more than a foot or two before it connects to the flue...and straight or tapered doesn't make too much difference. 

An 8x8 would be good for an oven in the mid 20s, though I'm going on more of a hunch based on what I've seen happen with those ovens with smaller throats and flues. You have super heated exhaust cranking out of a small space...you don't want that puking over you're outside finishes. Every single problem like that (that I've seen or helped someone with) has been because of a small throat and flue. As of now, nobody that I know of has had to downsize a flue because of a draw problem.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

For my own interest I looked for some pictures. Indeed due to the arch there are no flat spots and the throat is smaller then the openeing


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I've been pouring over pictures, here, at forno bravo and on Stonecutters blog and I find it's tough to tell because of the arch wether those cuts make the vent plumb or if they taper. Still not sure what I'm going to do. I'll have to lay it out and see


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> The percentages are for the initial opening. Usually transitions aren't more than a foot or two before it connects to the flue...and straight or tapered doesn't make too much difference.
> 
> An 8x8 would be good for an oven in the mid 20s,


So if I start the vent @ 13"x 4" and taper the sides down to 8" but keep the depth @4" that should work? Been raining off and on all this week (chance of flurries tomorrow and friday) so I haven't done much but this weekend should be good and I'm going to get that vent built and the flue set.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I think it's mathematical if you taper it or not. Your going to start with one size and you need to end at another size. However you get there us ok no matter what you do I think.


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## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

My flue is rectangular 6x14 or so. It is firebrick laid shiner and stuccoed on the outside. It works surprisingly well for such a short chimney and doesn't smoke at all. My door is offset to the right, so the throat/smoke chamber is plumb on the left and slanted a little on the right. Overall height from top of arch to top of chimney is 2.5-3'. Hope this helps.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Thanks, it does


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JBM said:


> However you get there us ok no matter what you do I think.


True.

Just size your throat opening correctly and do whatever you want to transition up to the flue.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> So if I start the vent @ 13"x 4" and taper the sides down to 8" but keep the depth @4" that should work?


 What was your oven opening again?

If you have a 17"-18" opening then...yes.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

17.25" opening


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Then you are good to go.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm going to do it this weekend. there's a pic on the Fb site, image 12.3 on the pompeii oven plans, that shows some sort of an adapter for a steel chimney almost right on top of the vent arch, so obviously some go virtually straight to flue size from the vent. another pic shows a fairly tall crazy sort of a taper, so some do it otherwise...FB is advertising both as a method so I'm sure either will work. As Stonecutter says...super hot smoke and gases, i'm sure they just want to go up as soon as they can.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Here is an adapter to switch it to metal flue:

http://www.northlineexpress.com/4-x...SP-46DVA-KCT&gclid=CK3k96rqkcUCFQEEaQodh7cA1A


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I have no desire to actually switch to a metal flue, just the picture shows the adapter plate sitting pretty much right on top of the arch....meaning that there was little to no taper, that's all. I was at a Maple festival yesterday so hopefully the rain holds off today, it was supposed to be nice today but is ominous out there


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I want a landing that is a contrasting material to the brick that the bulk of the oven will be faced with. It's an old reclaimed brick and there will be a foundation of mainly local stone that won't be very visible from the front. I'm also going to do a band course of stone (Stonecutter did such an amazing job with his granite on his last oven that I feel compelled to do something to add at least some interest). The band course will either be Indiana limestone or Ohio sandstone, both a buff or light grey colour which will contrast well with the red brick....also both are extremely classic which is where I'm trying to go. My first thought is to use either of those stones for a landing but they are both porous, so they could stain, and I'm wondering about their ability to withstand heat. I could do granite as a different contrast, but i don't have a decent source for any, plus it's already been done by SC. I'm not a concrete guy either so that's pretty much not going to happen...but it might????


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

A heat break is a nice feature to add between your entry arch and your decorative arch or finishes. I noticed a big difference in how the break on the last oven kept the arch from heating up as fast as the oven before. Neither one was damaged from the heat, but it's still a nice feature...and as a bonus, it will insolate the heat from reaching further away from the oven mass that without one.

Im looking forward to seeing what you are going to do with the stone....and don't let what I did on my oven keep you from using granite.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Heat break? An air space or some of that "wool" that they put on wood stove doors?

Granite is my preferred material (I KNOW it can take the heat and polished it can resist staining), but I don't have a ready source for it. If my cousin hadn't moved back to Ohio I could get some from him but he's been gone 10 years now. What's your thought on Indiana or Ohio sandstone and the heat and porosity


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Yeah, a heat break is an insulated gap between the oven, entry arch and finishes.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I plan on an airspace but I was going to point it 1/2-1" deep.

I may have found a piece of granite. I went to see a friend who works for a heavy equipment guy. The owner has tons of stone in the yard (literally of course). Most of it is the local limestone which i use for walling and flags but he sometimes has granite as well since we sit on the border between the limestone plains and the Canadian shield. Thought I might find something I could use, doubtful but worth a try. Talking with my buddy and he has a saw cut piece of granite that was a broken monument before it got started. He had thought of making a table out of it 5 years ago and it's just sat ever since. Said I could have it so I just might. 

If i do take it though, that will be 2 different materials in the foundation, a brown limestone quoining and the typical local stuff, and 3 different materials in the oven area, brick, dark granite, and the light grey/buff string course....hmmmmm


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Mine was hodgepodge because all the stone I used was scrap or had be picked over from two projects. It'll come together I'm sure.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Here's progress so far. I had to corbel out to give myself room for the facing brick. Can't remember exactly why I didn't bring the pad out initially but there was a reason...or not??? I don't mind it though, adds some interest, wish I hadn't done the dog tooth though, I maybe should have done dentils instead. I couldn't figure out how the end the dogtooth with it being projected like that so I just sort of stopped. A little clunky but oh well, probably should have kept the upper course going 1 brick more either side. I don;t do decorative brickwork much except in repair and even that isn't common

You may also notice that the brick isn't the same going up to the arch. That's because I made one side of the oven wider than the other because the right side will be all counter top so 2' deep and the left side is only 21" deep to match the grill.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

And I'm going to do a stone arch next, there's just too much brick there.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I think it looks cool. Keep going!


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I like the single course of dog tooth brick, it adds a nice visual break to the running bond that (imo) dentil coursing can't achieve in one course. I'm looking forward to your granite work. Did you color ( colour:whistling) our mortar?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Thanks guys. No colour in the mortar. It's actually just a pure lime mix, not NHL and I didn;t make putty, just bagged lime and sand. Kind of doing it as an experiment of sorts.

Oh and I remembered why I didn't just have a deeper oven area to begin with. Since it's a corner oven, the further I come out the wider the space and i didn't want to intrude on the grill any more than I was already


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

That's cool....what is your mix proprtion for your mortar?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Is the lime mix getting hard at all?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

My mix is roughly (just use shovels) 1:2.5 JBM, it gets hard but takes a good week. I give it a spray every day, even a few times a day at first, the first batch was done when it was still fairly cool, between 5-10c/40-50F during the day and a little less but not too close to freezing during the night, and damp too from the snow having just melted off the bricks, and the ground still being wet etc...that batch took over a week before it was cured enough that it could take a real spraying. the batch i did yesterday is pretty stiff but I'm sure if I popped a brick off the mortar in the frog would come back if I added water. I'm also sure that if I hit the joints with the hose on jet the joints would get eaten away pretty quick...but not the joints I did week before last


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

1:2:5 is type O


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Sorry just figured out your ratio. Need glasses


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## Gordon Forsyth (May 18, 2015)

I cannot wait to build my next real pizza oven.

http://http://www.accentmasonryllc.co


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Gordon Forsyth said:


> I cannot wait to build my next real pizza oven.
> 
> http://http://www.accentmasonryllc.co


I would be ecstatic to see a couple photos of YOUR prior real pizza oven:thumbsup:


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

stonecutter said:


> I like the single course of dog tooth brick, it adds a nice visual break to the running bond that (imo) dentil coursing can't achieve in one course. I'm looking forward to your granite work. Did you color ( colour:whistling) our mortar?


What is dog tooth? Even when in upstate N.Y. we call it saw tooth. Never heard the dog tooth terminology. Just wondering if they are two different methods or the same, just different names?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I only know it as dog tooth. 

http://www.ibstock.com/pdfs/get-it-right/get-it-right14-jun02.pdf


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

I thought one brick/header in one out was dog tooth. Bricks where corners are at 45°of wall every brick saw tooth?


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> My mix is roughly (just use shovels) 1:2.5 JBM, it gets hard but takes a good week. I give it a spray every day, even a few times a day at first, the first batch was done when it was still fairly cool, between 5-10c/40-50F during the day and a little less but not too close to freezing during the night, and damp too from the snow having just melted off the bricks, and the ground still being wet etc...that batch took over a week before it was cured enough that it could take a real spraying. the batch i did yesterday is pretty stiff but I'm sure if I popped a brick off the mortar in the frog would come back if I added water. I'm also sure that if I hit the joints with the hose on jet the joints would get eaten away pretty quick...but not the joints I did week before last


We used this mix back in school for our projects. After we finished with it and dissembled the brickwork, we take it off the brick with a single blow of the trowel (per side) and off to be recycled in the 2 man roll sieve. It smashed up pretty easy no matter how old it was and we screened it through the sieve which had a large vacuum hood to catch the dust.

The remaining product (powder) was housed in a block wall container and then wheeled over to the mixer as necessary to make new mud.

Off course during breakdown day, if the teacher left the shop for a awhile..."mortar fight', every man for himself :laughing:

That stuff will leave nasty welts on your head if hit from afar :blink:


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Love that sawtooth\dogtooth detail. I tried to do it on my own chimney 20 some yeara ago, but I was inexperienced and pressed for time.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

heavyc said:


> What is dog tooth? Even when in upstate N.Y. we call it saw tooth. Never heard the dog tooth terminology. Just wondering if they are two different methods or the same, just different names?


Regional terms but interchangeable apparently.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

heavyc said:


> I thought one brick/header in one out was dog tooth. Bricks where corners are at 45°of wall every brick saw tooth?


I think what you're describing is dentils, like teeth. Common throughout architecture, wood working, plastering etc...


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

superseal said:


> We used this mix back in school for our projects. After we finished with it and dissembled the brickwork, we take it off the brick with a single blow of the trowel (per side) and off to be recycled in the 2 man roll sieve. It smashed up pretty easy no matter how old it was and we screened it through the sieve which had a large vacuum hood to catch the dust.
> 
> The remaining product (powder) was housed in a block wall container and then wheeled over to the mixer as necessary to make new mud.
> 
> ...


If I take the mortar i laid a few weeks ago and throw it in a pail of water it wouldn't break down....unless I took a hammer to it. when i was in school we used just lime as well, but if more than a week went by we'd make a new mix. I wish I knew how to make videos, I've got a few blobs on the pad that are quite hard


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> I think what you're describing is dentils, like teeth. Common throughout architecture, wood working, plastering etc...


British Wikipedia confirms my belief. 
Dog tooth one header in one header projected out.
Saw tooth headers projected at 45° angle to the wall.
Had to call and confirm with my Dad. 55 year veteran retired out of local#1 Buffalo.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Ibstock disagrees 

dentils= alternate headers projected
dog tooth = bricks laid at 45* with the head exposed


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Glossary of British brick laying clearly calls each out as I stated. No big deal I guess we studied the British glossary in our line of masons. Kinda confusing how an encyclopedia wouldn't have the most accurate information?


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Ibstock disagrees
> 
> dentils= alternate headers projected
> dog tooth = bricks laid at 45* with the head exposed


Exactly...

page 4....http://www.gobrick.com/portals/25/docs/technical notes/tn2.pdf

UK site...http://moodle.sbc.ac.uk/sharedConte...ing/Bonds and Features/Bonds and Features.pdf


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

stonecutter said:


> Exactly...
> 
> page 4....http://www.gobrick.com/portals/25/docs/technical notes/tn2.pdf
> 
> UK site...http://moodle.sbc.ac.uk/sharedConte...ing/Bonds and Features/Bonds and Features.pdf


Go to Home depot Web site for do it yourself masonry and type in saw tooth border then add that link to your next post? Better yet might want to inform them and other information sources that they are providing false information?


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

We always called the ones at an angle a sawtooth, the alternating protrusions we always called a dental block....didn't know there was a fancy spelling for it until this thread.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Different regions different terms. We had this discussion last year sometime with the hidden bond/secret bond/ clipped bond. Only thing that's important is that you know what's spec'd in the drawings and that you and the customer/GC/architect are all on the same page. For this project I am builder/customer/architect so I'm mostly on the same page with myself in many of the important matters...other matters not so much


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Since this is as good a thread to ask as any, where do I get the thermometer that can be built into the ovens?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Do you have a store that specialises in grilling and barbecue etc...they should have one.

I think I'm going to get a heat gun, like they use in automotive. Fairly cheap at Princess Auto/Harbour Freight and you can get a reading of the walls, the floor the top of the dome whatever. Accurate as well


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The reality is that you only need a temperature reading while you learn to use the oven or to impress your friends. The cheapo IR gun is just fine for that.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

heavyc said:


> Go to Home depot Web site for do it yourself masonry and type in saw tooth border then add that link to your next post? Better yet might want to inform them and other information sources that they are providing false information?


I don't really care that much, I thought I'd post those links to show that other sources have other names for the same detail. Home Depot huh?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Local terms do differ, but there is a specific language used by architects across the world to define certain architectural details. Note that I said "architectural" twice, since that is what we are discussing, an architectural detail. This question was already determined at least as far back as the first century, although I bet it goes back a millennia further at least.

Vitruvious said (Chapter V, Section 11), "...is apportioned so that the face of each dentil is half as wide as its height and the cavity of each intersection two thrids of this face in width". "Dentil" itself means "tooth", not "sawtooth".

The sawtooth detail does not go back so far, mostly being a function of Victorian brick detailing (the Romans almost always covered brick with stucco, so it wasn't normally used to create details), but prima facie, it most resembles the teeth of a sawblade)


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tscarborough said:


> Local terms do differ, but there is a specific language used by architects across the world to define certain architectural details. Note that I said "architectural" twice, since that is what we are discussing, an architectural detail. This question was already determined at least as far back as the first century, although I bet it goes back a millennia further at least.
> 
> Vitruvious said (Chapter V, Section 11), "...is apportioned so that the face of each dentil is half as wide as its height and the cavity of each intersection two thrids of this face in width". "Dentil" itself means "tooth", not "sawtooth".
> 
> The sawtooth detail does not go back so far, mostly being a function of Victorian brick detailing (the Romans almost always covered brick with stucco, so it wasn't normally used to create details), but prima facie, it most resembles the teeth of a sawblade)


Not quite. Dogtooth is a very old style, and is applicable to ANY triangular projection in a series, usually in a moulding. Outside of brickwork it is commonly found as 2 or 4 flower petals or leaves coming to a point and projecting out like this. This definition say conical but others say triangular
http://www.finedictionary.com/Dog-tooth.html

The only way to do this with regular brick is to lay the brick at a 45
so maybe it's a sawtooth version of a dogtooth. Whatever


And a dentil is a dentil no matter the proportion. You can find dentils of varying proportions throughout architecture from ancient times to modern. Interesting to note that their occurence is most likely from the original Greek temples that were built of wood. the roof timbers were visible and looked like teeth. When the stone temples were built to mimic the wood ones the detail was called dentils


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I misunderstood, I thought we were talking about sawtooth VS dentil, not sawtooth VS dogtooth.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Yeah, dentils being called dogtooth is interesting, I'd never heard of it but it's what it's called by some. A quick google search brings it up a few times


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## Gordon Forsyth (May 18, 2015)

This is a picture of a Wood Burning Pizza Oven I built in my back yard a few years ago. Can cook a pizza in 5 minutes once warm enough!


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Here is mine, I can cook a pizza in 45-90 seconds at full heat!


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Gordon Forsyth said:


> This is a picture of a Wood Burning Pizza Oven I built in my back yard a few years ago. Can cook a pizza in 5 minutes once warm enough!


Ratchet up the heat and you can cut that time down to 90-120 seconds. Is it a kit oven?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't normally cook them that fast, usually just one or 2 at the start so I can make my wife's favorite (Guadeloupe-ground tomato sauce, fresh mozzarella, cherry tomatoes and cilantro (pic 1)) or a Hangover-rum-soaked cherries, very thin lemon slices marscapone and EVOO(pic 2). After that I go 3-4 minutes, neo-NY style, like this andouie and onion favorite (pic 3).


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Here's one that was below the 120 mark...I didn't have basil, but it was a decent sourdough pie.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

No pictures cause not much has changed except the stone on the foundation and the back wall has been built so I could pour the perlcrete around it. I've done a couple fires and am hoping to be able to use it for pizza on friday. So a couple of questions

What are the essential tools...pizza peel... what's the tool called that you turn the pizza with, or is that the peel? or is the peel what you put the pizza in the oven with? Or are they the same tool? What about tools for fire management, same andirons you'd use for a fireplace, I'll need a different brush i think to get in there properly.

Also I've done a few fires some just paper, some just softwood, and 2 with a few sticks of hardwood. The oven is black inside, real black, does the soot get burned away somewhat with a hotter fire? I though it would.

No door yet, i'll just be stacking brick sin front for a little while. Still lots of stuff to do, including the roof, and countertop. The countertop has been my biggest holdup. that and basic indecisiveness


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

You need 2 peels. Most home pizza guys use a wood peel to launch, but almost 100% of (WFO) professionals use a slotted metal peel, and I have found it to work best as well. You also need a smaller round peel, a turning peel, to rotate the pizzas in the oven. Really, those are the only two specialized tools you need. I use a hoe for the ashes and coals and a regular fireplace poker to poke.

The slotted one is 14" wide with a 24" handle, the turning peel is maybe 5" across with a 48" handle. Neither is cheap, but they are worth the investment.

Also, stay away from brushes and mops to remove ash from the floor before cooking. Brushes drop bristles which cause medical issues, and mops cool the floor too much. Use the slotted peel and give the floor a few whacks and it all goes up the flue.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

yeah no one wants to chomp down on a piece of wire, all new type of short and curly


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Find those peels at a restaurant supply house or on-line or at a specialty type store?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Here is the cheapest I found for the slotted peel, the turning peel was given to me but here it is.

http://www.fredsmusicandbbq.com/category_s/596.htm

http://brickovenbaker.com/brick-ove...-inch-round-pizza-turning-peel-47-inch-handle

So between them, almost $200 bucks. Had I not been given the turning peel, I would have bought a cheap regular big aluminum peel and cut it down. That would only cost about 15 bucks and all you would be lacking is the sliding, rotating handle.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I've always used an inexpensive wooden peel to launch the pizza. I'm sure the perf ones are better, I just don't want to pay for one. I did just pony up for a perf turning peel from GI metal. You can get them through Amazon, Sean.

I do use a brush on occasion, natural bristles. A quick dunk and shake out and no worries about ingesting a bristle. These days, I only use it after a live fire session when prepping the hearth for bread baking. During live fire I just slap the hearth with the peel and the heat flow takes the airborne ashes away and up the flue.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> Find those peels at a restaurant supply house or on-line or at a specialty type store?


You can get a solid aluminum peel with a wooden handle for about 25 or 30 bucks at Hendrix on Baxter. It's no fancy slotted peel but it will do the job.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> You can get a solid aluminum peel with a wooden handle for about 25 or 30 bucks at Hendrix on Baxter. It's no fancy slotted peel but it will do the job.


I saw that after doing a search yesterday. Never heard of it. I can;t even think of where Baxter is. They looked about the right size to able to fit in my tool cubby also. 27" or so


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> I saw that after doing a search yesterday. Never heard of it. I can;t even think of where Baxter is. They looked about the right size to able to fit in my tool cubby also. 27" or so


Beside Ikea.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> Beside Ikea.


Oh...in the plaza? So Baxter is the road into the plaza? Cause iris is the one that goes on to Woodroofe. Or is it the rd Lee Valley and Centura are on?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> Oh...in the plaza? So Baxter is the road into the plaza? Cause iris is the one that goes on to Woodroofe. Or is it the rd Lee Valley and Centura are on?


Perpendicular to Iris, it runs off Iris east side of Ikea.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Thanks, I decided google map was probably easier. Never been in there. Pretty close, I'll try to go this week or get my wife to stop by on her way home


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Trust me on this one. The cheapo aluminum peel is going to lead to frustration. Better to use a wood one than that, they are just as cheap.

Once you get tired of making calzones or worse with the aluminum or wood one, you will be amazed at the ease with which you are able to launch pizzas using the slotted one.

Buy the aluminum, solid one, then when you get tired of fighting it, cut it down into a turning peel.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Can't i cut holes in it and bevel them like SC did....No wait I can't do that, definitely can;t do that. 

I'll get a wood one and the aluminum one. I like the idea of a wood one to put it in the oven but the aluminum one to pull it out, if I fvck up too much I'll invest in a more expensive one


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Very light dusting of powder and away you go. All the times I've messed up a launch was because of operator error, not because of the wood. Someday I'll spring for one of those peels just to say I've tried it. Btw, that homemade perf peel was Stainless steel not aluminum...


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