# Are you getting hammered by unlicensed contractors?



## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

Here in California, I am getting hit. The whole contracting industry has almost reached a crisis stage with unlicensed contractors and the underground economy they create. And, with the latest downturn in the housing market, this is only going to get worse. What do you think?


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

Agreed...but I think it has more to do with A: Location...and B: the type of customer we're talking about. I find.....the semi well off are the worst. They only care about cheap and cheaper. The very well off...not an issue (at least for me) The just skimpin by crowd is kinda mixed, mainly because alot of these types have already had their nightmare story or know of someone who has so they are the wiser. I find SoCal landlords are flat out the worst.
Always bitching about price and "that's too much" I have heard often....Infact the last time was a few weeks ago....I gave my proposal, they call me back an hour later and asked me over. Get there, HO tells me this is a very high bid and he thinks it's too much, I simply respond, it really is a lot of work, he tells me "Oh yes, I know, it's alot of work".......I am very choosie on landlord/tennant work I do. Most of the time the job is just chit work, place is a dump, and the tennants are welfare's finest......I remember seeing a father of 4 staying home all day long playing some kind of playstation gaming thing....Home owner later tells me if he gets a job, the medical and welfare will stop. If I had no ambitions in life, that might sound appealing, but that's another topic!!

In The S.F. Valley, it's prety bad. There are alot more unlicensed hacks than contractors. In the Los Angeles city area it is more contractors as it is very expensive to live and most have money for construction / service work. I did just lose a job down the street...a big job too to an unlicensed hack. 85K for the total job, and some yahoo! is doing it for half that. No plans no permits and is building a new interior - exterior load bearing wall 3 feet from his property deviding wall. Must be 5ft min. I was thinking of calling it in...but it's not my business


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

Unlicensed contractors are a problem everywhere licensing is supposedly required. (I'm in Ca. too...where you at?)

How do you compete with someone who works out of a truck, doesn't pay taxes, hires illegal workers, doesn't pay worker's comp, doesn't have GL ins. and can afford to charge half of what you charge?

I'm tired of being penalized for playing ball with uncle sam. What's the motivation to do things on the up and up when I see not nearly enough being done to stop these guys? Why shouldn't I just close my doors as a corp. and just use my license to get my foot in the door and not report my income?...

I would make a killing.


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## pwrpapa (Jul 3, 2005)

send_it_all said:


> Unlicensed contractors are a problem everywhere licensing is supposedly required. (I'm in Ca. too...where you at?)
> 
> How do you compete with someone who works out of a truck, doesn't pay taxes, hires illegal workers, doesn't pay worker's comp, doesn't have GL ins. and can afford to charge half of what you charge?
> 
> ...


what are you waiting for?


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

pwrpapa said:


> what are you waiting for?


I'm really fighting to keep myself on the up and up so I can sleep at night and look at myself in the mirror in the morning. I've only been at it a few years, so I have a little fight left in me.


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

JamesNLA said:


> I was thinking of calling it in...but it's not my business


JamesNLA,

The fact is that if we don't call it in, it becomes our business, or the loss of it. These unlicensed, illegitimate contractors are mostly there and thrive as contractors generally do not step up the plate and report such large violations. We have to rally together and speak out on the issue of unicensed contractors; if we continue to allow unlicensed contractors to work unreported, they'll begin to de-value the very license we worked so hard to get. As it stands now, most property managers and realtors choose to hire unlicensed labor rather than legitimate contractors; they are the group that pisses me off the most, since they willfully, illegally do so.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

There's a plumbing contractor about 30 miles to my north that is running short on work right now. He's keeping his best guys on the payroll 40 hours a week, but if he does't have work for them, he has them out driving around scouting work being done without permits and work being done by unlicensed plumbers. They even follow guys from Lowe's and Home Depot to see where they're headed with the plumbing supplies they just bought. This is a pretty militant tactic, which I don't completely agree with, but it made the local newspaper.


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

send_it_all said:


> Unlicensed contractors are a problem everywhere licensing is supposedly required. (I'm in Ca. too...where you at?)
> 
> How do you compete with someone who works out of a truck, doesn't pay taxes, hires illegal workers, doesn't pay worker's comp, doesn't have GL ins. and can afford to charge half of what you charge?
> 
> ...


Send It All, I'm in Sacramento. The fact is we cannot compete with them. We have liability insurance and licensing, and all the other costs necessary for running a legit business. They come by and work for a beer and a sandwich. I found out that this underground economy generates 40-60 Billion (thats with a B) dollars a year. Most of it is directly related to unlicensed contractors, whom most of them are tax-evaders or simply do not report the income. California contractors need to rally together and protect their industry.


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> There's a plumbing contractor about 30 miles to my north that is running short on work right now. He's keeping his best guys on the payroll 40 hours a week, but if he does't have work for them, he has them out driving around scouting work being done without permits and work being done by unlicensed plumbers. They even follow guys from Lowe's and Home Depot to see where they're headed with the plumbing supplies they just bought. This is a pretty militant tactic, which I don't completely agree with, but it made the local newspaper.


He's a hero in my book.


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> There's a plumbing contractor about 30 miles to my north that is running short on work right now. He's keeping his best guys on the payroll 40 hours a week, but if he does't have work for them, he has them out driving around scouting work being done without permits and work being done by unlicensed plumbers. They even follow guys from Lowe's and Home Depot to see where they're headed with the plumbing supplies they just bought. This is a pretty militant tactic, which I don't completely agree with, but it made the local newspaper.


California has one of the most progressive agencies when it comes to licensing contractors, but, the entire industry around the United States is being affected by: a - the downturn in the housing market, b-lackluster immigration policies.


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

FYI - I learned that MSNBC is doing an hour-long piece soon on unlicensed contractors, working with the CSLB here in California. It will air Wednesday night on MSNBC cable.


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

JamesNLA said:


> Agreed...but I think it has more to do with A: Location...and B: the type of customer we're talking about. I find.....the semi well off are the worst. They only care about cheap and cheaper. The very well off...not an issue (at least for me) The just skimpin by crowd is kinda mixed, mainly because alot of these types have already had their nightmare story or know of someone who has so they are the wiser. I find SoCal landlords are flat out the worst.
> Always bitching about price and "that's too much" I have heard often....Infact the last time was a few weeks ago....I gave my proposal, they call me back an hour later and asked me over. Get there, HO tells me this is a very high bid and he thinks it's too much, I simply respond, it really is a lot of work, he tells me "Oh yes, I know, it's alot of work".......I am very choosie on landlord/tennant work I do. Most of the time the job is just chit work, place is a dump, and the tennants are welfare's finest......I remember seeing a father of 4 staying home all day long playing some kind of playstation gaming thing....Home owner later tells me if he gets a job, the medical and welfare will stop. If I had no ambitions in life, that might sound appealing, but that's another topic!!
> 
> In The S.F. Valley, it's prety bad. There are alot more unlicensed hacks than contractors. In the Los Angeles city area it is more contractors as it is very expensive to live and most have money for construction / service work. I did just lose a job down the street...a big job too to an unlicensed hack. 85K for the total job, and some yahoo! is doing it for half that. No plans no permits and is building a new interior - exterior load bearing wall 3 feet from his property deviding wall. Must be 5ft min. I was thinking of calling it in...but it's not my business


:furious: It sure as hell is your business!! It's your duty!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

metroconstruct said:


> FYI - I learned that MSNBC is doing an hour-long piece soon on unlicensed contractors, working with the CSLB here in California. It will air Wednesday night on MSNBC cable.


So are we getting spammed by network television people now, or are you really a contractor?


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> So are we getting spammed by network television people now, or are you really a contractor?


I'm the dictator of a banana republic... of course I'm a contractor. I'm a General Building Contractor here in Sacramento, CA. I thought the FYI would be informative to this forum.


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

Report a homeowner doing a DIY unpermitted? Never turn in.
Report an unlicensed contractor doing work unpermitted? EVERY TIME.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

mdshunk said:


> There's a plumbing contractor about 30 miles to my north that is running short on work right now. He's keeping his best guys on the payroll 40 hours a week, but if he does't have work for them, he has them out driving around scouting work being done without permits and work being done by unlicensed plumbers. They even follow guys from Lowe's and Home Depot to see where they're headed with the plumbing supplies they just bought. This is a pretty militant tactic, which I don't completely agree with, but it made the local newspaper.


Good for him!!! If I was not so busy I would be doing the same. But trust me, any job I loose I keep and eye on and its done by a hack I will call it in.


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## RizzoMaryland (Feb 12, 2007)

I say cut off the demand....If there was some type of punishment to homeowners for hiring unlicensed contractors then they may not be as inclined to use them. A law on the books or a non-profit organization run by contractors/industry professionals..etc...Theres enough of us out here to enforce it locally and of course its in all of our best interests...among a lot of things it would reestablish a fair market value for the things we bust our butts to do....and not have to work twice as hard for half the money to compete with someone whose only overhead is chrome trim on their Toyota pickup.

Here in Maryland unlicensed contractors are a dime a dozen....Hopefully this slow market will help weed out some of them.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

RizzoMaryland said:


> ..Hopefully this slow market will help weed out some of them.


Seems to me that slow markets create them. They worked for an employer until the slowdown, now they try it on their own while they collect unemployment benefits.


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

RizzoMaryland said:


> I say cut off the demand....If there was some type of punishment to homeowners for hiring unlicensed contractors then they may not be as inclined to use them. A law on the books or a non-profit organization run by contractors/industry professionals..etc...Theres enough of us out here to enforce it locally and of course its in all of our best interests...among a lot of things it would reestablish a fair market value for the things we bust our butts to do....and not have to work twice as hard for half the money to compete with someone whose only overhead is chrome trim on their Toyota pickup.
> 
> Here in Maryland unlicensed contractors are a dime a dozen....Hopefully this slow market will help weed out some of them.


 
LOL @ chrome trim... here in California, there are many contractors whom are grouping together and working with the agency which regulates licensing and making some progress. Though said agency runs as slow as molasses, they are working towards viable solutions. Perhaps the federal government could take a look at federalizing the contractors license, maybe even adopting California's progressive approach and stringent laws. This would be especially helpful in a state of emergency/ federal disaster area, where quality contractors are needed most. Some nationalized standards would be good, i.e. what is being done in most building departments in moving from the UBC to the IBC.


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

The HO is the worst. As a plumbing contractor that deals almost exclusively with HOs (primarily service but an awful lot of future baths and other remodels) it is my experience that about 99% of the time by the time I am even called into the project it will be well under way with nary a building permit in sight. So at this point if I pull a plumbing permit guess what happens and how the HO responds to what happens. Last week I had a lady start to want to get mad at me because after I got there I discovered that Jose the tile/carpenter/drywall man covered up both screwdriver stops on the roughed in shower valve when he ran the tile right up to the cartridge body. I explained that any competent tile man would have known better her response was "but nobody told him" :blink: as if it was my job to make sure that the tile man knew how to do his job. 

I am fully certified but a lot of times it makes no difference to the HO whether I am or not. 

A second note: start documenting with photos or videos every time your called in to clean up some hacks mess so that the next time someone invites you to "bid" against "Billy Bob" you can pull out your portfolio of actual nightmare scenarios to educate HO as to what he might expect from unlicensed people.


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

send_it_all said:


> The license and the bond are each approximately $300 every two years....It's really not that steep. The insurance here is the killer. W/C is approximately $40 per hundred for a carpenter and General Liability is ridiculous.


 
Workman's comp. is so outrageous I don't hire anyone, I use licensed subs only and avoid it. Liability insurance is also through the roof,:blink: though I did notice a bit of a reduction in it this year verses last year.


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## eagleandbaby (Oct 13, 2007)

metroconstruct said:


> Workman's comp. is so outrageous I don't hire anyone, I use licensed subs only and avoid it. Liability insurance is also through the roof,:blink: though I did notice a bit of a reduction in it this year verses last year.


I agree. I pay around $8000.00 per year in Liabilty, $9000.00 per year for Polution, (Becasue one customer req's it), $10,000.00 per year in medical insurance for my family only. This does not include workers comp. 

"it would be a *felony to bid over $500* with no license there, since the area's been claimed as a Federal Disaster area. Anyone caught in stings will go to prison for 3 years at least."

I think they changed the amount to under $700.00 that someone can do work without a license.


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## The Home Doc (Oct 26, 2007)

If it is that easy, why don't they just get the license? Well, I see it as that easy... but then again, they probably don't have the required experience. You guys are in a whole different world out there with your earthquakes. I've got over 13 years experience here, but I'd be lost out there.

SOMEONE MAKE THE RAIN GO AWAY!!!!!!


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## 3Corgis (Oct 16, 2007)

Dropped in between tasks and thought I'd pass on some similarities I've noticed. As an engineer that has worked with Heavy/GC's in Ohio for a few decades the issues in this thread can be seen in a few related areas.

First I like EagleandBaby's background. We could cause some real problems out here if we ever hooked-up. My sweetie would just cover her ears and plead for me not to explain the next fun project.

LivesNLA notes the various mindsets of HOs or project owners toward "lowest bidder". I was in the fortunate spot to approve bids and on occasion toss "lowest" because IMO they were not responsible (besides having to have all their paperwork, I felt they could NOT do what was spec'd for the price even after a chat with them). I was also lucky enough to know most of the bidders and knew their work. But the mindset reminded me of a person who's former job was to argue down prices for federal work (of some sort). This seemed to carry over in how this guy did everything. Some HO's also think that's just how you HAVE to do business. Same for "owners" wanting design work done. Too many hours are needed (in their opinion) and I've watched some beat the designers down to the point you KNOW they are not going to put the effort into the project it requires. I'm probably the only one in my past work that told consultants to add hours to do tasks XYZ because I know it's an important part of a job, and it's not shown.

I love the idea Smellslike$tome mentioned about the portfolio of botched low-ball work. So many times I referenced jobs-gone-bad as it related to some aspect of the construction that a portfolio...well it would probably have been pretty thick now that I think of it. I had a few BillyBob's but many of those really wanted to do a good job, they just needed some instructions to keep from hurting themselves. Then I need the portfolio for the "Owner" of the "gov't" job to show them that if they do to the consultant what they try to do to the Contractor working on their house...this is the product you'll get! First 10 years I spent too much time fixing Consultant designs to get them ready to bid.

Finally I see a definite trend that a registration-type organization (Board of Engineers for example) tends to police and deal with "their own", but dealing with those outside the organization, the unlicensed, is sparse. I watch proceedings in one state where the engineer's are being beat up, but you know how things are done on the outside and wonder why there is not 10-times (or more) actions taken against those operating outside the legal framework. 

Back to work for me!!


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

eagleandbaby said:


> I agree. I pay around $8000.00 per year in Liabilty, $9000.00 per year for Polution, (Becasue one customer req's it), $10,000.00 per year in medical insurance for my family only. This does not include workers comp.
> 
> "it would be a *felony to bid over $500* with no license there, since the area's been claimed as a Federal Disaster area. Anyone caught in stings will go to prison for 3 years at least."
> 
> I think they changed the amount to under $700.00 that someone can do work without a license.


The change you are talking about is not for unlicensed contractors, but contractors, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the home improvement contract, with it's many subsequent papers to be signed (notice to the owner, insurance statement, etc.), does not kick in until after the $750.00 mark, where it used to be $500. 

In other words the unlicensed contractor did not get a break, but the licensed contractor can do smaller jobs and not have to whip out the 7-page contract over little repairs.


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## MonsterToys (Oct 25, 2007)

workers comp is killing me too, as well as insurance. Since most of my jobs are well over $1000, I stay away from unlicensed subs.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

Since this thread is originally about getting hammered by less than legitimate contractors, I thought I'd weigh in with today's events.
We gave a snowplow quote yesterday to my son's good friend. 2 pages long, fully detailed, description of what we're doing, a Google satellite picture of where we're putting the snow, copies of insurance and Worker's comp. Our price was $6850. This was actually a few hundred less than I would normally have given, but they are good friends, and the property is very close to another one I do.
They got another quote, scrawled on the back of a business card (they showed me) for $1800.00!!!!! So I got an email, very inidgnant, about ripping off good friends, etc. 

What do you do? HOw the heck can I explain the difference? I did, but they just don't see it.

10 minutes later, I got a call from a property I quoted a month ago for $9500.00, to go ahead. They had 3 other quotes. The difference from lowest to highest was $300! I don't know if I was high or low, but obviuosly I was competitive.

You just never know.


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

Stone Mountain said:


> Since this thread is originally about getting hammered by less than legitimate contractors, I thought I'd weigh in with today's events.
> We gave a snowplow quote yesterday to my son's good friend. 2 pages long, fully detailed, description of what we're doing, a Google satellite picture of where we're putting the snow, copies of insurance and Worker's comp. Our price was $6850. This was actually a few hundred less than I would normally have given, but they are good friends, and the property is very close to another one I do.
> They got another quote, scrawled on the back of a business card (they showed me) for $1800.00!!!!! So I got an email, very inidgnant, about ripping off good friends, etc.
> 
> ...


You're not alone. These guys make a good living under-bidding legitimate contractors by 2/3; I must admit I am partial to the California model: here you are either licensed or not. 

These guys whom come in and do work for a beer and a sandwich really destroy the professionalism and quality of the industry. They just watched a Home Depot commercial that said, 'you can do it'. The contracting/ construction industry is far more complex than this. It is not just about buildign a deck, there are multiple code requirments, State, county, and city requirements, contract disclosures (which protect both the client and the contractor), etc. 

As a general rule, I try to avoid doing work for friends or family, simply because of the type of scenario you've described. I cannot stand people whom want something for nothing. The fact is, these poeple would not stand for such a thing in their own job, yet with contractors (whom for the most part spend years developing skills), somehow our services should be free. Its almost expected. That's usually when I double my rate, in what I call the 'Friend & Family Discount'.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

They are breaking the law. Report them. The consequences of not reporting them will result in the loss of business. And the bad reputation the industry will receive from shoddy work. Here in NJ you cannot get a permit without a license. So if you don't see a placard. Report the site.


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## eagleandbaby (Oct 13, 2007)

metroconstruct said:


> The change you are talking about is not for unlicensed contractors, but contractors, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the home improvement contract, with it's many subsequent papers to be signed (notice to the owner, insurance statement, etc.), does not kick in until after the $750.00 mark, where it used to be $500.
> 
> In other words the unlicensed contractor did not get a break, but the licensed contractor can do smaller jobs and not have to whip out the 7-page contract over little repairs.


 
Thanks. I was not too sure on that.


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## POOLMANinCT (Oct 7, 2006)

metroconstruct said:


> Here in California, I am getting hit. The whole contracting industry has almost reached a crisis stage with unlicensed contractors and the underground economy they create. And, with the latest downturn in the housing market, this is only going to get worse. What do you think?



not really a problem with them in the pool biz, out here (new england long off season). but if they creep up ill hammer them.

ray

ray


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## eagleandbaby (Oct 13, 2007)

POOLMANinCT said:


> not really a problem with them in the pool biz, out here (new england long off season). but if they creep up ill hammer them.
> 
> ray
> 
> ray


Good luck. :laughing: You can't stop a wave. _They...will...come_.


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## DREWALAN3 (Oct 3, 2007)

WELL WHEN IT COMES TO MY AREA I HAVE TO PUT MY $1.00 . YES UNLICENSED SIDE JOBS ARE A PROBLEM. BUT THE PROBLEM IS *YOU *WHAT HAVE YOU DONE ABOUT IT. _DID YOU VOTE?_ THOSE CARDS LEFT AT YOUR DOOR DO YOU COLECT THEM AND SEND THEM IN ONCE A MONTH TO THE* CSLB*. DO YOU CALL THE CITY ON UNLICENSED JOBS DOWN THE STREET FROM YOURS? YES THIS IS A PROBLEM BUT I BET U AMPLIFY THIS PROBLEM BY HIRING ILLEGALS! BUT LETS GIVE THE BENIFIT OF THE DOUBT AS LONG AS THEY COME UP WITH A *LICENSE AND A S.O.S.* *ANY*. THEN WHEN THEY LEARN THEIR JOB THEY ASK FOR A RAISE AND YOU SAY NO. THEY THEN FIND A SIDE JOB SHORTLY ALONG THE LINE AND PUT THEIR PRICE ON IT WICH, BY THE WAY YOU PROBLY WOULD NOT TAKE A JOB EVEN IF YOU WERE SUPER DUPER SLOW. SO THEY GET THAT JOB DO THE SAME AS QUALITY JOB AS YOU, _SINCE THEY DID THE WORK FOR YOUR COMPANY._ WORST OF ALL YOU WILL PROBLY VOTE FOR A DEMOCRATIC PRES. LIKE HILLARY WHO WILL MAKE ALL ILLEGALS LEGAL. YOU GET A ILLEGAL BREAK ON INSURANCE AND WORKERS COMP AND A TAX BREAK BUT PAY FOR IT IN THE END. EXPECIALLY THOES WHO REALLY ABIDE THE LAW.


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

DREWALAN3 said:


> WELL WHEN IT COMES TO MY AREA I HAVE TO PUT MY $1.00 . YES UNLICENSED SIDE JOBS ARE A PROBLEM. BUT THE PROBLEM IS *YOU *WHAT HAVE YOU DONE ABOUT IT. _DID YOU VOTE?_ THOSE CARDS LEFT AT YOUR DOOR DO YOU COLECT THEM AND SEND THEM IN ONCE A MONTH TO THE* CSLB*. DO YOU CALL THE CITY ON UNLICENSED JOBS DOWN THE STREET FROM YOURS? YES THIS IS A PROBLEM BUT I BET U AMPLIFY THIS PROBLEM BY HIRING ILLEGALS! BUT LETS GIVE THE BENIFIT OF THE DOUBT AS LONG AS THEY COME UP WITH A *LICENSE AND A S.O.S.* *ANY*. THEN WHEN THEY LEARN THEIR JOB THEY ASK FOR A RAISE AND YOU SAY NO. THEY THEN FIND A SIDE JOB SHORTLY ALONG THE LINE AND PUT THEIR PRICE ON IT WICH, BY THE WAY YOU PROBLY WOULD NOT TAKE A JOB EVEN IF YOU WERE SUPER DUPER SLOW. SO THEY GET THAT JOB DO THE SAME AS QUALITY JOB AS YOU, _SINCE THEY DID THE WORK FOR YOUR COMPANY._ WORST OF ALL YOU WILL PROBLY VOTE FOR A DEMOCRATIC PRES. LIKE HILLARY WHO WILL MAKE ALL ILLEGALS LEGAL. YOU GET A ILLEGAL BREAK ON INSURANCE AND WORKERS COMP AND A TAX BREAK BUT PAY FOR IT IN THE END. EXPECIALLY THOES WHO REALLY ABIDE THE LAW.


If you are a contractor in the State of California, it is your obligation and responsibility to report illegal unlicensed contractor activity, if you care about your business, want to protect your livelihood and are proud of your license. 

I have brought up (and am still) this issue with multiple county and city officials, State Senators and Assembly members, and the Governor himself. The fact is though I cannot do this by myself: it would take the entire industry to wake up and in a body voice their objections.

As far as hiring illegals, first of all it's against the law, and secondly any contractor in my opinion whom hires illegals workers is no different than the unlicensed contractor and should have their license revoked.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

The problem around here is the inspectors. Im just now seeing it, they could care less whats going on. Why I dont know but they dont care what you do or if you have a permit. They dont pinch anyone for being unlicensed they dont even ask.


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

Here is a link check out more about the CA licensing proces and the CSLB:

http://www.genisiswebsites.com/genisiswebsites/uca1/cslb1.html

http://genisiswebsites.com/genisiswebsites/uca/Untitled-1.html

http://www.gouca.org/forum/index.php

Some great links.


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## email81 (Nov 1, 2007)

*My Opinion*

I think some of the issue with this problem is the state that requires Contractor's to carry these licenses do not do enough to protect the value of the license that they charge us for. I have seen a lot of businesses do work they should not be doing and pull permits. 

I even have reported one job where, in this case, they were building without a permit. I called the permit office and checked to see if they had a permit. They did not, but what killed me about the conversation was that the person I talked to said that if they drove by and siding was on the building they would not be able to really do anything at that point. As far as, that job site went the company they hired had not made it that far but even if they had of you could see it was a new structure that was not there before. The law was still broken. I asked her,* "What about the next person that buys that property? Since they are not doing this legally there is no guarantee that the building is even built correctly."* Her answer was, _*"Well then the new owner would have to go after the original owner who made the change if something should happen."*_ WTF???!!!! 

They are willingly letting people not follow the law but at the same time they tell me I need to follow the law for my business to make it and let my customers feel more at ease with me. The building in the example above was finished without the city doing anything about it. I tried to report it with no luck.

Now it has come to my attention that there is a business that is working under a deceased person's lic. doing major work that would need a lic. They have not reported the person's death and continue to let the state think the individual is still alive. I am thinking they plan to do this until they have to renew. 

Normally, I would call the government and report, but it got me no where last time and to be honest why should we have to pay to be licensed and stay legit and then act like the construction police as well. The government should be doing all the leg work to make the Contractor's license and other gov. requirements not become the jokes that they use to just milk us of our hard earned money. Maybe if the state gov. stepped up our potential clients would have no choice but to go with someone licensed to do the work because there would be penalties for not following building laws that require the use of lic. Contractors. *I am sorry but having a license should guarantee work.*

Maybe instead of acting as the construction police we should be going to the Contractor Board that issued us the license in the first place and demanding that they police their laws. For, we all know laws mean nothing without enforcement.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

email81 said:


> Maybe instead of acting as the construction police we should be going to the Contractor Board that issued us the license in the first place and demanding that they police their laws. For, we all know laws mean nothing without enforcement.


:laughing: keep dreaming, they will never do it. I just got my GC license a few months ago and have about $400 into it and alot of time I'll never get back. I think with as much money as the state got from me they should use it to keep us guys who follow their rules from getting screwed. 

What really burned my  is at the dueplex when we met the building inspector and the electrical inspector over there. The siding was about 1/2 done and other things were being worked on by the flybynight guys. The flybynights werent there because they didnt want to get introuble. The stupid inspector didnt care about anything. From what I understood the law was you have to be licensed to work on rentals because they dont want somone getting hurt or killed from shoty work. Besides the house is condemed so I would think they would want to make sure somone who knows what they are doing is going to repair it. 

I hate to do it but maybe to stay alive in the construction world you need to try to get these guys in trouble. Im sure nobody will care though.


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

Call your local news, and they may do an investigation, and get the ball rolling. They do it here all the time. "7 on your side" "42 for you" "Consumer Watch" 

I did one on the news, about the city not grandfathering in easement setback, when my dads home was built in the 50's, before it was in the city and no easement or setback codes, period. They came this spring and told him he had to move 3 buildings and part of the house, that had been there for over 45 years, because they didn't meet the 5 feet setback code. It was a big stink.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

Floordude said:


> Call your local news, and they may do an investigation, and get the ball rolling. They do it here all the time. "7 on your side" "42 for you" "Consumer Watch"
> 
> .


 
Thats a idea, they are realy getting bad and I dont see any sign of inspectors giving a rip any time in the future.


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

send_it_all said:


> They didn't have any trouble springing into action this morning when my truck was parked on the "street sweeping" side of my street.


Those laws are easy and much more profitable to enforce. The sheep (us) are here to be shorn, the wolves may roam unmolested.


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## Spectatorz (Jun 11, 2004)

metroconstruct said:


> if you are a contractor in California, you can do something about it. Find out here: http://www.gouca.org
> 
> :thumbsup:


I Completely AGREE !!!

Sign Me Up.

Next California Contactor ... ???

Let's "Take Care of Business"

:thumbup:


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

Spectatorz said:


> I Completely AGREE !!!
> 
> Sign Me Up.
> 
> ...


Where you located Spec?


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

send_it_all said:


> What about the police? Since contracting without a license is AGAINST THE LAW, shouldn't the fuzz be obligated to take action if reported?


:lol:

The police dont care about law breakers. If I could get payed $1 for every law I seen broken I could retire a millionare in one week. Out at the bates motel there was a guy living there who just got out of prison. He was on heroine, threatening everyone and the police wouldnt come out. They said you have to go to the court house and get eviction papers. WTF does that have to do with anthing :furious:. 

The CSLB and the police are the same, they go after the easy targets and the easy targets are the ones who are licensed and have money. If you have a license then you have a place of business, etc. You have something that can be taken. If you just some bum that has squat you can dissapear and most likely you have very little of anything of value so why wasit the time to try to give them a fine? All they will do is move to another trailer.


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

Michaeljp86 said:


> :lol:
> 
> The police dont care about law breakers. If I could get payed $1 for every law I seen broken I could retire a millionare in one week. Out at the bates motel there was a guy living there who just got out of prison. He was on heroine, threatening everyone and the police wouldnt come out. They said you have to go to the court house and get eviction papers. WTF does that have to do with anthing :furious:.
> 
> The CSLB and the police are the same, they go after the easy targets and the easy targets are the ones who are licensed and have money. If you have a license then you have a place of business, etc. You have something that can be taken. If you just some bum that has squat you can dissapear and most likely you have very little of anything of value so why wasit the time to try to give them a fine? All they will do is move to another trailer.


Some of these unlicensed contractors get much more than a fine; they get jailtime. If any of them advertise or work in the disaster areas, i.e. the southern California wildfire disaster areas, it is automatically a felony, punishable by up to three years in a state prison, plus thousands of dollars in fines.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

metroconstruct said:


> Some of these unlicensed contractors get much more than a fine; they get jailtime. If any of them advertise or work in the disaster areas, i.e. the southern California wildfire disaster areas, it is automatically a felony, punishable by up to three years in a state prison, plus thousands of dollars in fines.


The same is true here but nobody enforces the law so they never get in trouble.


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## griesbaum (Jun 2, 2007)

*NJ Unlicensed, Undocumented Workers are the biggest problem*

NJ Unlicensed, Undocumented Workers are the biggest problem. They "State" when it enacted that all contractors must be licensed, did not do a great job at informing the home owner. As a result an unlicensed contractor is able to offer low ball rates and get the jobs since licensed contractors have to pay some high premiums just for insurance which is required to be licensed.

Undocumented "Illegals" are the next biggest problem. In NJ they learn a little english and they set up shop and start offering services. This is very big in the large cities in NJ. Again the home owners believe they are getting quality services for the cheapest rates. I have seen the quality and I will continue to be over priced, since the quality they produce is garbage.


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## C.C.R. (May 19, 2006)

In MA. you have to have you lic.# & HIC# on any and all advertising including trucks. Yesterday, within a 2 hour drive for material I compiled a list of 12 trucks with $20.00 magnetic signs "joe's construction", etc. none having any lic. or HIC #s and you could just tell they were the hacks driving our prices down. The trucks all barely able to drive parts falling off etc. The guys, all look like they just crawled out of a dumpster some minority some not. :furious::furious::furious: This is BS you can't make a living because of these guys nevermind get ahead. More often than not I get from customers," Won't it be cheaper if we don't get a permit?" or "how much will you take off if we don't get a permit?":furious: Tell ya what, it'll cost ya extra because I would be risking my license for you and you aint worth it. 
I think rather than putting efort into getting these unlicensed guys the building department is just taking it out on the guys that try to play by the rules.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

griesbaum said:


> .
> 
> Undocumented "Illegals" are the next biggest problem. In NJ they learn a little english and they set up shop and start offering services. This is very big in the large cities in NJ. Again the home owners believe they are getting quality services for the cheapest rates. I have seen the quality and I will continue to be over priced, since the quality they produce is garbage.


My dad talked to the woman at lowes who is incharge of their installation. Hes a electrician and was wondering if they needed a contractor to install things for customers. She said no Jesus hernandez does it for us. Well it turns out this guy cant even speek english so I doubt hes licensed or even a citizen. Id also like to know how the hell lowes could hire him if hes not licensed.

He may be licensed, when I took my GC exam taking it in spanish was a option . And I wouldnt put it above the state to give a license to a illegal.


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

Michaeljp86 said:


> He may be licensed, when I took my GC exam taking it in spanish was a option .


Is this California?


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

L. B. Condulet said:


> Is this California?


Michigan


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

Wow


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

L. B. Condulet said:


> Wow


There was spanish speaking guys who came in there while I was taking my test. The first time there was one guy out of 3 of us and the 2nd time there was 2 maybe 3 out of 4 of us.


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## Gregpaves (Dec 15, 2007)

*dime a dozen and not worth a cent.*

I did have time to read the 120 odd posts but, if you do good work you'll weather the storm.:hammer: just work harder and smarter


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

I didn't read all replies either.....

Send it all, and other California contractors, I understand and share your grief somewhat as I began as a Calif. lic. contractor in 83', and moved to Colorado in 92'.

It can get worse, (alot worse),.......Now; Take your existing problems and eliminate the licensing requirement, and although illegal and unethical, have the ability to miss-represent your employees as subcontractors, eliminating all labor burden costs; That's what we have in Colorado!

Depending on the particular municipality, some require contractors to obtain what is the equivilent to a city business license in Calif. Illegals have no problem aquiring these "licenses" when or if they're required.

Colorado suits the mega-big contractors and the "under-ther radar", (so-to-speak), scumbag/jackleg types. The honest/ethical small or moderate outfit has got the cards stacked against them from the git-go.

There is essentially no employees in residential construction. They're all "subs". These "subs" typically work for wage rates that we pay our employees. These "subs" are predominately illegals that run "under-the radar" anyhow.....the wife and kids are under another name and enjoy all the public assistance they can manage to bilk us out of.........So it's suits them just fine.

Over the years, I've sat on a couple of local construction association commitee's dedicated to implementing state licensing, only to be continually shot-down. 

Hell, most of the long-term, well established companies don't want to "rock the boat"; They've managed to rise above, (in market share), and the existing conditions actually further insulate them from the scum. Then you have the smaller/younger companies that just don't know any better, because "that's just the way we do it here"; And, lastly the crooked scumbag hail-chaser cheat'n-where-you-can jacklegs, (big & small), that just love the situation. Oh! And let's not forget the big tract homebuilders that are one of the major opportunists, taking every opportunity to exploit the situation.

There's my rant.......


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## a2zhandi (Nov 2, 2007)

JamesNLA said:


> I find SoCal landlords are flat out the worst.


Try Florida Realtors. They scrape the copper off a penny and sell when the market increases!! NO JOKE:no:


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

tnt specialty said:


> IThere is essentially no employees in residential construction. They're all "subs". These "subs" typically work for wage rates that we pay our employees. These "subs" are predominately illegals that run "under-the radar" anyhow.....the wife and kids are under another name and enjoy all the public assistance they can manage to bilk us out of.........So it's suits them just fine.


Dont worry, hilary will save us in'08. She will give them so much assistance none of them will have to work ever again. Dont worry you working stiffs can afford it, after all your rich and they're not.


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

Michaeljp86 said:


> My dad talked to the woman at lowes who is incharge of their installation. Hes a electrician and was wondering if they needed a contractor to install things for customers. She said no Jesus hernandez does it for us. Well it turns out this guy cant even speek english so I doubt hes licensed or even a citizen. Id also like to know how the hell lowes could hire him if hes not licensed.
> 
> He may be licensed, when I took my GC exam taking it in spanish was a option . And I wouldnt put it above the state to give a license to a illegal.


 

Not sure about LowesHD labor issues, but Walmart was lost in court battle and heavy fines over hiring Mexican/illegals cleaning stores after mid-night for only $2.00 per hour per head. This problem in years 2002-05 I think?


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

L. B. Condulet said:


> Is this California?


 
They can also take driver license exams with their own chosen friend/translator brought in. When they sit back-to-back with two chairs, the other translator just mumbles... *1. Mark B, ...2. Mark D, *and so on (in Spanish tounge *or their own codewords*)... All I watched is the security guy don't understand a thing these guys mumbling about... Maybe now DMV change the exam tactics, they could put security people who know Spanish, just watch, and pretend and listen ...and fire on the spot.. Hahahaha .. funny!


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

SelfContract said:


> Not sure about LowesHD labor issues, but Walmart was lost in court battle and heavy fines over hiring Mexican/illegals cleaning stores after mid-night for only $2.00 per hour per head. This problem in years 2002-05 I think?


The probably got fines for paying less then min wage, not fined for hiring illegals. They should have got a couple million in fines.


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## metroconstruct (Oct 21, 2007)

Spectatorz said:


> I Completely AGREE !!!
> 
> Sign Me Up.
> 
> ...


 
Thank You 

http://www.gouca.org/forum/index.php


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## enap66 (Oct 10, 2007)

JamesNLA said:


> Agreed...but I think it has more to do with A: Location...and B: the type of customer we're talking about. I find.....the semi well off are the worst. They only care about cheap and cheaper. The very well off...not an issue (at least for me) The just skimpin by crowd is kinda mixed, mainly because alot of these types have already had their nightmare story or know of someone who has so they are the wiser. I find SoCal landlords are flat out the worst.
> Always bitching about price and "that's too much" I have heard often....Infact the last time was a few weeks ago....I gave my proposal, they call me back an hour later and asked me over. Get there, HO tells me this is a very high bid and he thinks it's too much, I simply respond, it really is a lot of work, he tells me "Oh yes, I know, it's alot of work".......I am very choosie on landlord/tennant work I do. Most of the time the job is just chit work, place is a dump, and the tennants are welfare's finest......I remember seeing a father of 4 staying home all day long playing some kind of playstation gaming thing....Home owner later tells me if he gets a job, the medical and welfare will stop. If I had no ambitions in life, that might sound appealing, but that's another topic!!
> 
> In The S.F. Valley, it's prety bad. There are alot more unlicensed hacks than contractors. In the Los Angeles city area it is more contractors as it is very expensive to live and most have money for construction / service work. I did just lose a job down the street...a big job too to an unlicensed hack. 85K for the total job, and some yahoo! is doing it for half that. No plans no permits and is building a new interior - exterior load bearing wall 3 feet from his property deviding wall. Must be 5ft min. I was thinking of calling it in...but it's not my business


If it weren't your business, then you would have gotten the job! If you don't get a job due to liars, cheats and unlicensed (probably an illegal on top it. No, take that back, DEFINITELY an illegal!) then it IS your business. Have some balls man, turn him in, you'd be doing EVERYONE a favor. Your choice to ignore it is foolish.


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## RenaissanceR (May 16, 2006)

*Massachusetts Enforcement...*

[deleted]


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

RenaissanceR said:


> The problem with the Massachusetts licensing system, is they go after licensed contractors who have broken the rules first. People who hire unlicensed contractors and get burned, are advised to fill out 6 copies of a complaint form, and wait anywhere from a month to a year or more to hear back regarding their complaint.
> 
> I had a client who hired an unlicensed contractor who also didn't pull a permit. $25,000 later, the contractor was fired. I came in and completed the work to code, and with permits. Last year the unlicensed contractor sued the client for the rest of his money as "I had a contract", and tried to sue me as "he took work away from me!". The judge ruled in favor of the
> unlicensed contractor and awarded him $35,000 in damages.
> ...


Ive heard alot of stories like this. its the same for americans and illegal immigrants. Americans have SS# and drivers license #, they can be traced. If you ask a illegal imigrant his name its guatamala, then next week his name if rafiael. 

If you have a license its easy for you to get in trouble, thats why illegals dont get into troublw, its to much work.

Think about it, you hire Lightning construction to put a addition on and they screw something up and you go to court. Yo ucan look them up in the phone book, have the license # etc. You hire some guy named Pablo and you he screw up your house Pablo is gone.

Its the same with evicting them from apartments. I told my dad to get them out of the building. What do you do fill out the eviction papers and for the name you write florida? Then they wont go to court sp you lost your $ and you cant track a guy down or put a warrent on a guy named florida who has no drivers license or no ID at all.


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