# My beef lately...I promise,no bashing...



## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

Cant we all just agree to disagree ?
I love everyone


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

crap, is jj offline?

i really wanna get to know jj. Sounds like he needs a friend. The biz is tough now for everybody, it's easier to lay blame than see the light at the end of the tunnel. I see alot of guys on here (CT) all day... during the week... those guys must be slow too. aint pointin no fingers... heck i'm slow too. Almost broke. But i know i got NO-BODY to blame but myself for it. I let off my game a bit and now ka-put on the calls... Jj's prob slow too. When he gets busy again he wont be so down on every body cashin in ( on all that's really left out there...) I wont beat no one outta work, lie, cheat or steal to get it... but i will knock on a door to see about cuttin a tree off a house after a wind storm.... no i aint a friggin lic'd forestry expert (stump rubber or what ever they get lic money to call it) but i stop and offer my services anyway, i know how to use a chainsaw.... I fix gutters too, and build a new bedroom, build a whole damn house.... hell i know how... If i got a call for an addition...you think for one minute i'm gonna say.... well sir, i dont have a license for that trade... you'll have to hire "A G.C." and then what?.... hope like hell he calls me to do the trim work? Why HELL no.... i say Sir, I can handle the entire job except for major ele and plumbing. We'll have to get that done by trade specific professionals. Then i sell, sell, sell and pray i get the job. Because i know the work well enough to sell it, and i have ref's to prove it and mainly because there's nothing else to pick from. I take what i can get.... if any one dont like it... we can fight it out fist to fist, when you tell me i cant do work for any reason.... you're telling me i cant feed my family. I dont think any one would be wise in that situation to show me their face...

But that's because i know my skills, i know my quality, my dependability,... im not a thief or a hack. I'm only gonna do what i know how to do, in a safe manner, to the t in quality, far better than acceptable... for a reasonable price that i choose, Not JJ, Not RBS, but me. If a local guy cares to tell me im out of line in pricing... i will pay attention... but one state to another? C'MON guys.

Stop bein mad at people just tryin to get by. If you catch a guy rippin someone ( A HOMEOWNER---- NOT YOU JJ) off, run him down and beat him up... you'll feel better. Slap him for me too. ***** slappin crooks makes me happy.


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

HMMMM It's interesting to get all POV's


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

I just wanna be able to support my family ......... and my mistress, .......... and 4 illigetimate children ........ and buy a 2010 Camaro ........ and drink good beer ......... and maybe go to a gentlemens club every now and then .......... but thats all.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

STRATHD... too deep for me to understand the printed lyrics even, but the tunes got jam to it... like that funk, down low, head bobbin beat baby. I'm just 32.... dylan i guess was b-4 my time a bit. What's the song actually about? Being a sucker? Foolishly hopeful? really i dont get it. Being too righteous? Sorry feelin dumb here.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

ModernStyle said:


> I just wanna be able to support my family ......... and my mistress, .......... and 4 illigetimate children ........ and buy a 2010 Camaro ........ and drink good beer ......... and maybe go to a gentlemens club every now and then .......... but thats all.


 
Maybe the RBSREMODELING guy can give you some pointers on how to make that happen.... That cat's got it made... jet, big screens, i hear he's even got a new prosthetic ..... never mind.... Sorry RBS couldnt resist.:laughing:


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

21gun said:


> STRATHD... too deep for me to understand the printed lyrics even, but the tunes got jam to it... like that funk, down low, head bobbin beat baby. I'm just 32.... dylan i guess was b-4 my time a bit. What's the song actually about? Being a sucker? Foolishly hopeful? really i dont get it. Being too righteous? Sorry feelin dumb here.


My take is deep insight, compassion and the fact that when people get consumed with pride "there aint no going back" they get overwhelmed with pride. Also think twice about severing ties cause when they're gone "there ain't no coming back".

I like music. Thought it might be relevant.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

MZ-HANDYMAN said:


> Weather I charged $20, $45, $70 per hour or $100-$500 for a job, The customer still gets top of the line work. sometimes they get a bargain and sometimes they get a normal price that one of you may have bid. It all depends on my bid and what they'll accept. I'm pretty good at reading my clients. If the guy has a Mercedes and a BMW in the driveway he'll get a different price than the guy with a Buick and an Olds.
> 
> But either way they get my full quality of work as if both were paing me double my going rate.
> 
> ...


You just made it very clear to me, you want this to be about you. We're just talking here.

Good Luck
Dave


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

strathd said:


> My take is deep insight, compassion and the fact that when people get consumed with pride "there aint no going back" they get overwhelmed with pride. Also think twice about severing ties cause when they're gone "there ain't no coming back".
> 
> I like music. Thought it might be relevant.


Strat? 
A Lou Reed fan? :clap:
Who knew? :laughing:



21, 
Dylan ain't just before your time,
he's now.
Playing in ballparks all summer
with Willie and Mellencamp! :thumbup:


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

neolitic said:


> Strat?
> A Lou Reed fan? :clap:
> Who knew? :laughing:
> 
> Dylan tribute concert Neo..................


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

strathd said:


> neolitic said:
> 
> 
> > Strat?
> ...


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

I can see some of you haven't run out of beer yet!

That's good, that's good.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

21gun said:


> crap, is jj offline?
> 
> i really wanna get to know jj. Sounds like he needs a friend. The biz is tough now for everybody, it's easier to lay blame than see the light at the end of the tunnel. I see alot of guys on here (CT) all day... during the week... those guys must be slow too. aint pointin no fingers... heck i'm slow too. Almost broke. But i know i got NO-BODY to blame but myself for it. I let off my game a bit and now ka-put on the calls... Jj's prob slow too. When he gets busy again he wont be so down on every body cashin in ( on all that's really left out there...) I wont beat no one outta work, lie, cheat or steal to get it... but i will knock on a door to see about cuttin a tree off a house after a wind storm.... no i aint a friggin lic'd forestry expert (stump rubber or what ever they get lic money to call it) but i stop and offer my services anyway, i know how to use a chainsaw.... I fix gutters too, and build a new bedroom, build a whole damn house.... hell i know how... If i got a call for an addition...you think for one minute i'm gonna say.... well sir, i dont have a license for that trade... you'll have to hire "A G.C." and then what?.... hope like hell he calls me to do the trim work? Why HELL no.... i say Sir, I can handle the entire job except for major ele and plumbing. We'll have to get that done by trade specific professionals. Then i sell, sell, sell and pray i get the job. Because i know the work well enough to sell it, and i have ref's to prove it and mainly because there's nothing else to pick from. I take what i can get.... if any one dont like it... we can fight it out fist to fist, when you tell me i cant do work for any reason.... you're telling me i cant feed my family. I dont think any one would be wise in that situation to show me their face...
> 
> ...


I think you and a lot of others are missing the point.Mike said it best.
LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.If I play by the rules and have the overhead I have,I have to charge a certain amount.If I am competing against someone that is not playing by the rules I can't compete.

Forget about someone that is "just" unlicensed and uninsured.A guy like that is usually using illegal labor.THAT makes a big,BIG difference in what they can change and still make money.We have an illegal problem here that many can not even begin to understand.

And believe me, I understand about selling...
But the area I am in has a population of around 12 million.There are thousands of LICENSED contractors and just as many unlicensed. When I go out and give an estimate I am damn sure to point out the importance of using a licensed and insured contractor.But when someone comes after me and is half the price I gave them by the time I call with a follow up the lowballer is already starting the job.For a lot of people the $$ is the bottom line.

I can understand a man wanting to make a living.And I can admire them for not just sitting on their butt's like a lot of people do...But like someone just said a lot of times it is breaking the law. Period.

Level playing field..Thats all one can ask for.THEN it should come down to selling and reputation.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Omg!!!


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Omg!!!


If this thread bothers you so much I am sure you can find another one that interests you with out ever having to look at this one again.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

If it wasn't for the hax and DIYers there would be less
work out there. All you have to do is find it. 
I don't see any legit owner/builders 
looking for a deal with the unlicensed.
As customers, they can have them.



​


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

skyhook said:


> If it wasn't for the hax and DIYers there would be less
> work out there. All you have to do is find it.
> *I don't see any legit owner/builders
> looking for a deal with the unlicensed.*
> ...


You don't live in SoCal...

Un-permitted additions and remods are all over the place here.
To many the idea of it costing half what a legit contractor charges is worth the risk.


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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

Jumbojack, You can't blame everything on a Mexican who came over here to get a little bit of what you were born into.

But you CAN blame your fellow GENERAL CONTRACTORS who hire them and give other MEXICANs a reason to come over here to get a little bit of what you were born into.

I bet you got your job because you were related to someone or brought up into a family business or your Dad knew someone who gave you the position you have.

If you actually EARNED your position you wouldn't be such an A$shole about it..

Unlike you, most of us weren't born with a silver spoon in our mouths.

You , RBS, Mike Finley, Chainsaw Charlie, SLS and all my other little groupies are all A-HOLES. you will always be A-HOLES and you are the reason CT is going to S#!+.

A lot of the focus/blame is on me and *all I'm doing is defending myself* *and fellow HANDYMEN*. Yet all you sorry motherF9Ukers get to keep acting like A-H0les, Fu9cking up my threads, Talking out your Sorry racist a$$es and get away with it because the MOD's would rather join in and F9Uck with me for not taking your $#!+. than just ban your useless a$sses all together.

Well F9Uck You and the high horse you rode in on! There are plenty of people here that are sick of your $#!+ and they PM me about you and tell me not to take it personal. A guy can only take so much harrassment before he posts a message like this... Look at what 21gun said up there... Look how many people have told Mike Finley he's a greedy bastage, RBS and Chainsaw charlie think everything is a fu9Cking joke.

Well, again FU9ck Those of us who try and contribute and get sh!+ all over by you because you have 1000+ posts... No one cares that 800 of your posts are just $H!+.

Ban me I don't give a f9uCk anymore!

Lately I'm the most popular subject on this sorry assed (Thanks to you clowns!) forum.


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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

Who the hell made you the End all Be all construction god. I bet you have no talent other than sitting behind a desk at a job that was handed to you like Mike Finley. Neither of you will ever amount to anything. You live off the sweat of others and think it's all ok because your stupid Dad's did the same thing and brought you up as Whit Trash Racists.


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

Typing drunk tonight Manny? Those post are pretty out of line. Talking about a mans wife and kids and father.


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## carpentershane (Feb 9, 2009)

I happen to be the father of 3 small children, I expect to see angry temper tantrums out of them *occasionally*. What I don't expect to see is angry temper tantrums out of grown ass men who are old enough to be my father on a public forum (for anyone with a computer and half a brain to see) on *a regular basis. *You all are professionals, businessmen, and on the most basic level-men. Now man up and act your age, quit the name calling and whining and treat one another with respect. This does not mean you have to agree, it just meants showing a little common courtesy and manners. Like your parents tried to teach you. This is getting a little ridiculous.

Respectfully, 

Shane


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

Is it safe to assume you aren't ignoring me anymore?


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

You ought to go back and edit those posts Manny.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

JJ, i'm just sayin here, for instance... it's easy for me to say this...I have yet to become a GC... for all the normal reasons, some out of my controll, some with in... but still.... I'm only trying to offer what could be a suggestion, (Please dont yell at me) By the way JJ, sounds like you've mellowed out a little bit since last time. Let's all try to be supportive and offer some real specific info here on JJ's thread....It's obvious that some cheeseheaded, lowballin, f*^ckers are really puttin the ka bosh on good companies where JJ's at..... With out lightin torches and gettin all hell bent on blood...

No yellin at me, remember? you promised.

Have you thought about, given the current economy and unemployment rate, and how many DIY'ers we'll call em for now, that there might be a need to re-evaluate your pricing structure? I am not saying you're over-charging... i'm saying... is there any way you can see a managable temporary cut in profit to bring your bids closer to theirs? I hate that, that even sounds morally wrong. To lessen yourself to their level seems... ugh.... but can you see what i'm trying to say? Is there a little something you figure in, that you really could live with out to lower your bid?

OK, if not then what makes your bid more appealing? 
*Do you have the capability to accept credit cards? People love them sky miles/Rewards.
*What is your labor warranty? Mines 10 years, yes TEN, if your quality is good it could be 100... ya know? I bank on it being right, but i do all the work.
*Do you give a certificate of warranty? I haven't in a while... need to start again. I keep it (sample) with my Lic and Ins in my Bid Book, with my letter head, schedule etc. (your selling tool box i call it.) When you whip that bad boy out on a nice embellished (like a car title- they sell them in the office supply stores) professional "certificate of warranty for labor" some people really appreciate it. Says, here i plan to back your job for this long and i know the quality is there. Especially if you go all out and put on there fully transferrable to any new owner of the property until expiration. Then you have a document that will be a selling key potentially for the owner should they ever be in the selling position.. thus they give it to realator... they give to new owner... then you have a new client all over again. (AS LONG AS the labor is good and no call backs. In 18 years i've had 3 call backs. all 3 were roofs. One was my fault, shingled a small flat porch that i should have put modified on. one was the h/o'er got on roof and stepped in the tar to clean the sky light she didnt want to pay for a flashing to go around.... the other was a pile of raccoon poop in a valley the owner swore i left something on the roof....wasn't me i said.... hahaha

any way... Warranty good, transferrable better.
*Are your last 5 including current jobs going well? are the clients willing to give a referrence? I keep a list of every job and customers # and always ask if i can use them for a ref,,, again, my work is first rate, they are all very happy to speak for me... when you offer 5 sequential jobs as ref's it shows that you are handling things how they would appreciate also.
*are you stressed when you get to the estimate? does it show in your body language? we all know a bad day shows... are you using your personality to sell the job? what's your hand shake like? etc...
*Bashing another contractor that is named or unnamed to a customer is very unprofessional. Making certain remarks about the hacks may take a more creative approach to bring about their awareness of them. Maybe something more like... 
*I want you to know that we carry up to date insurance and the proper lic. to perform these trades, we have them here for you to view. I understand that you will be getting more bids, i just want you to know that we have incorporated the cost of proper permits in your estimate and show up for work able to provide the "local governing body" with the necessary insurances and documentation to render services (as such what ever they are), in the event of audit or inspection of your job site by the (authority)
*if will you be recieving any bids from any friends or family or coworkers, please be aware that any lack of insurance could put you at substancial risk of liability for their actions as well as inactions regarding the completion of your project. 

some others could be
*key benefits you dont really see as being key... things you just do out of habit that others might not offer. What really sets you apart from the others? Do you always answer the phone? Do you have a show room? Do you come to the job everyday to check progress? Will you be performing any of the work first hand? Do you have a really good deal with any suppliers? Can u get them a discount? Do you give a discount for Cash paymnet? Seniors? Military? AARP? SChool band card? people like freebies.

My wife sells SCENTSY products. every customer that spends atleast 500.00 gets a gift... usually runs me around 25 bucks each... they're great little room fresheners, nightlight type thing, not very manly, but they love them, they work great and the extra fragrances are only 5 bucks if they choose to call the wife and get more. Plus she makes a small commission and sometimes anew customer. Hey, scratchin my wifes back at the same time ya know? But it's a gift. They're cool. And i note(FREE) People like free. I even give em to the customers that beat me up on price.... that really sends the message home to em. AHd one guy call me and apologize for jewin me. really. I think his wife made him, but still... They bought 4 more for their kids. Hey, every body wins, i spent 25 bucks...

Any how, i have more if you like these ideas and are not using any of these already. Let me know if i should carry on... Or do i just sound stupid?

I'm tryin JJ. It'll get better bro, always does.


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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

carpentershane said:


> I happen to be the father of 3 small children, I expect to see angry temper tantrums out of them *occasionally*. What I don't expect to see is angry temper tantrums out of grown ass men who are old enough to be my father on a public forum (for anyone with a computer and half a brain to see) on *a regular basis. *You all are professionals, businessmen, and on the most basic level-men. Now man up and act your age, quit the name calling and whining and treat one another with respect. This does not mean you have to agree, it just meants showing a little common courtesy and manners. Like your parents tried to teach you. This is getting a little ridiculous.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Shane


 My appologies to you Shane, and anyone else not F'ing with me but, In my defense (AGAIN) these guys just push and push until they get what they want and the above is what they want. Then they start yelling BAN HIM HE SAID A NO NO.... Like I care, do you know how many forums there are out there? Like getting banned from this one even matters?


The MODS here would rather have these idiots F'ing everything up than have me trying to contribute and getting SH!+ all over. And NO I'm not going to edit my posts and No, I'm not drunk and I'm just sick of these a-holes just like everyone else is.

Go to our profiles and see who has more percentage of useful posts. Most of my Off post are me defending myself.


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

Dude...you take this stuff wayyyyyyyyyyy too seriously.


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## carpentershane (Feb 9, 2009)

MZ-HANDYMAN said:


> My appologies to you Shane, and anyone else not F'ing with me but, In my defense (AGAIN) these guys just push and push until they get what they want and the above is what they want.
> 
> Most of my Off post are me defending myself.


That is my whole point. You can choose to act or react... You are choosing to react and react and react. They push you only because you respond every time... They don't have to see eye to eye with you, you don't have to see eye to eye with them. Just because something is said, and alot of the times it is said (and likely unwarranted) does not mean that you have to honor it with a response. Do the right thing, don't be and a$$hole, edit your posts.


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

MZ-HANDYMAN said:


> The MODS here would rather have these idiots F'ing everything up than have me trying to contribute and getting SH!+ all over. And NO I'm not going to edit my posts and No, I'm not drunk and I'm just sick of these a-holes just like everyone else is.


Well you can bet this thread is closed and your posts are either edited or just placed in the trash. That would of already happened if I was a mod around here, read the posting rules. Not that you need to read the rules to know you are out of line.


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## carpentershane (Feb 9, 2009)

Man up Manny, do the right thing

DO NOT RESPOND IN KIND

_A gentle answer deflects anger, but harsh words make tempers flare._


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

Damn Manny, that was harsh. I can only imagine you have some history with a few of thes guys being clowns. I havnt read any of those posts yet. Hope the soon stop, really. I got clobbered a time or two for saying some stuff that wasnt sound advice. i took it to heart and larned from what was there to learn from. I got cheeky with a moderator a bit ago my self... But tried to keep it civil. In A PM... private message. You know, where evrything you say isnt out there like dirty laundry.

I guess i feel some need to keep the peace here or something. Times are tough for some of us and this place is a good way to vent that. I think we're all trying to be heard here... none of us are secretaries, i dont think any of us love to type.... altho i'm the fastest:clap: screww all of ya.... i'm better at typing 90 wpm:w00t::2guns:sorry, i just made that way...

aint no sense in some of that manny, not from what i can tell from here any way.

I wouldnt talk that way about a mans fam even if he had spoke like that about mine. i'd be pissed, but dont stoop to that level for anyreason.

I think you should edit that. Be a bigger man than that manny, you obviously take pride in your work enough to take pics of it... so you're a man like me in that regard, proud, i dont think you;ll be proud of what you said here tonight come tomorrow. Maybe you will. But is the beef is there, why buy into it? I sure wouldnt.


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

MZ, you're not the only one here that has threads go off topic. Look around. Lighten up and go with the flow. You would see that they soon get back on topic if you weren't flying off the handle. It happens to all of us. 

You're dealing with the ADD profession here.

Focus is for solving string theory.


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## slowforthecones (Aug 24, 2008)

As an employee you are guarenteed by labor law payment for work performed. As a independent contractor, contractor...you get paid when customer pays...customer skips pay..you won't get paid. 

Part of being a business owner is paying ahead of time for the equip, tools, marketing and insurance (home office overhead) to hope to make a PROFIT. The owner is entitled to making a PROFIT because he bears all risks and the biggest risk of not getting paid after work is completed.

Don't worry about your boss getting this and that, you want to be in your boss's shoes..then go out on your own by all means and do that! That's what I did...I got upset with the boss one day and told him "you phuking sack of sheet, i'm done with your slimely j---wessh ass" Also got a buddy to bang old boss's daughter and knock her up... that was good payback.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

another thread gone to crap...


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

wtf?


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Walking away, head shaking. Hoping to get far enough away from the tracks.

Good Luck (sorely needed)
Dave


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

JumboJack said:


> You don't live in SoCal...
> 
> Un-permitted additions and remods are all over the place here.
> To many the idea of it costing half what a legit contractor charges is worth the risk.


It unfortunetly seems to plague most of the U.S. 

And from personal eye witness accounts I see Ya'lls "throats slit" by "your" fellow Licensed Contractors who will do roof jobs on weekends or other projects "off the beaten track" knowing city inspectors won't be by.

They pull a "lettered truck" up and no one is the wiser.

Seeing and knowing how much Ya'll have sacrificed to be legit and the risk/penalty involved when not being so. It befuddles me why these people would do this to themselves and you. :no:

I can see why it would infuriate you when you chose to "play by the rules".


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## davitk (Oct 3, 2008)

Think I may add some Bushmills to my coffee.

I propose a new rule, no posting after 2am!!


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

21gun said:


> Have you thought about, given the current economy and unemployment rate, and how many DIY'ers we'll call em for now, that there might be a need to re-evaluate your pricing structure? I am not saying you're over-charging... i'm saying... is there any way you can see a managable temporary cut in profit to bring your bids closer to theirs? I hate that, that even sounds morally wrong. To lessen yourself to their level seems... ugh.... but can you see what i'm trying to say? Is there a little something you figure in, that you really could live with out to lower your bid?


I understand your point but it only looks good on the surface. 

These guys have established their prices based on what they feel their work is worth. 

Whatever their mark up they feel it meets their needs as a business person and their personal lifestyle.

For them to devalue it says it was never worth that to begin with.(you can disagree or agree with their pricing but it still sends the same message.) 

Now if they chose to "temporarily slash prices" how long would it take for them to work their way up to the original?

Could they? or would they be another failed business that has to close shop?

You can like them dislike them agree with them disagree with them think they're all douschbags it doesn't matter. You have to applaud there tenacity as they are on the front lines doing what they believe is standing their ground to not let the industry get dragged down. 

Every one of them that caves in or folds completely causes the rest to loose a foot hold.

What do they say to their past or repeat customers to explain full price to them versus reduced price now?

Each and every person can AND will do what's right for THEM, but to some they can't justify altering their business plan if they believe the one they use is successful.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Well sorry to take this back to the normal topic but,

Like i said in a previous post the UK has the same problem with these people doing jobs at half your price and to be honest it never affected our work. Ok we would lose some jobs but we were so busy it wouldn't make any difference. But the customers we did have were 95% return customers who lernt the hard way with trying to do it on the cheap. Most of the customers we had were from going to fix the jobs that the cheap company didn't do properly and they didn't wanna go back and fix it. They then had to pay us to take it all out and fit it all again properly. 

We wernt cheap but we done a good job and backed up our work. If there's a problem we are there to fix it and our prices covered this. If we charged what some of the other guys charged then we would be out of business and the customer would then have no support. But some people are willing to pay the cheapest price possible and not worry about the problems they may have and they are the customers i don't and didn't want as the penny pincher's are the ones who nit pick every part of your work and never pay you on time. When we used to go and price for jobs and got one of these customers who were telling us that they got a quote for half of what we were thinking we would add 20-30% extra on top of our normal price because of the hassle the cheap ass people were. 

I would rather not have the work from these customers to be honest. They can cost you more than you earn on the job if you done it for the prices and quality they want.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

It doesn't matter where you live and work, the downturn has had an affect on all of us to one degree or another. In difficult times it's easy to fall prey to a victim mentality--and the strong desire to find some one or some thing to blame for our troubles. That mentality is a slippery slope and detracts from our natural ingenuity in finding solutions to the challenges we face.

Every day a new post shows up to stir the same old sh**. I'm not defending or attacking anyone specifically--but how many times can you have the same discussion guys? 

The vitriol and bitterness of some of the posts lately has done many of your arguments a disservice.


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