# Picky customer, getting ridiculous



## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

So we are doing a house for a guy who is an engineer (red flag) of some ilk. Bout a $500k custom home.

His specs for the slab were pretty detailed, even more demanding than a commercial project we have going. Our Concrete guys do mostly residential, some commercial, and are pretty good. However, they don't usually run into even commercial jobs where inspectors are this picky. 

They trenched all the beams, and they weren't all straight. Some were a little crooked. The owner said he wanted a string put down the middle of the beam, and he wanted to see 5" dug out on either side, which would ensure exact proper beam location. He didn't care if it was wider than the specified 10", and the worst of the crooked beams had all 10" on one side for part of the way, so it was 5" off. We fixed them all, pretty well I thought, and told him to check it. 

He got out there today to inspect, and held a plumb bob from the middle string, and measured to the side of the beam. If it was 4 3/4" he noted it for correction. We packed the **** out of this pad and the beam walls are pretty flat and hard, so he could get pretty exact measurements. 

Now, I can deal with this. The concrete crew knew the deal and they will fix it again. That's not my problem. He also freely admitted that structurally the slab is fine as is, but why should he pay for less than perfect. This, I am also cool with. It's a little retarded I think, but ok it's what we signed up for. 

Here's the issue. He had asked us to install a deeper beam on one side of the house and out into the yard which would be 4' deep and 20' long as a "root barrier" for a large tree by the house. We gave him a price of $2000. So as he's telling me that "structurally the slab is fine, I just want it perfect" he also says, "now, if you give me a that trench for free I'll consider accepting the slab as is."

It's kind of like he's saying "I'll be a complete jerk about every detail unless you start giving me freebies". I just said "it's either acceptable or it isn't. If it isn't, we'll fix it. No deal on the trench." He seemed miffed as though he was offering me a favor that I rejected. 

Any thoughts? Is this job gonna be a nightmare? I can deal with picky, but manipulative jerk is something else.


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## illbuildit.dd (Jan 7, 2015)

I have told a customer "hold on let me make a call and find out". Then called the insurance company and ask if I can skip a payment. 

I can be an a hole sometimes. 
This job sounds like it will be a nightmare.


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

Stick with the contract details and do your due diligence. Don't let any detail slide, as you have seen that he won't.


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

Sounds like he's trying to frustrate you then offer an "out" by giving him free stuff. Sounds like a nightmare but it doesn't sound like your first rodeo.


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

Tell him if he wants perfect he better be ready to shell out some more coin. 
That barrier wall ain't gonna be worth the mud it's poured with in 10 years... Roots will do what they want to do. 
A more effective approach to the same wall would be an application of copper sheathing, or any type of barrier that contains copper... That'll divert the roots away from the barrier, but I guarantee it won't be cheap. 
But he's an engineer... He'll figure it out


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Let him know that if he is going to act that way, you will charge him for every single thing required to do the job not covered by the contract. Absolutely not one freebie. Even things you would normally do that aren't spelled out in the contract become add ons. That included any scheduled issues because of late selections or payments. Hand him a few extremely expensive change orders to accomplish what he wants and you will have him where you want him and you can remind him how the relationship got that way. If he isn't afraid to disrespect your time, you should not be afraid to disrespect his check book.


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Run


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Go there at night and cut that damn tree down. After you get paid for the concrete barrier. Show him what wasted money really looks like!


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## mtb (Oct 11, 2012)

He does sound like a pain... On the other hand digging your grade beams 5 inches off and crooked is a little weak... I would have set a string line and cut them straight and the right size the first time. And if I hired you to do it and that's what I got id be checking every detail too... I think using it as leverage to get freebies is definitely lame but being a stickler about you following the specs should be expected at this point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

mtb said:


> He does sound like a pain... On the other hand digging your grade beams 5 inches off and crooked is a little weak... I would have set a string line and cut them straight and the right size the first time. And if I hired you to do it and that's what I got id be checking every detail too... I think using it as leverage to get freebies is definitely lame but being a stickler about you following the specs should be expected at this point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah the concrete sub was informed that this guy was picky before they started, but apparently the trenching portion of their crew didn't get the message, and they picked a bad slab to be a little iffy on their beams. But, I've never worried about it too much, I bet most beams aren't dead straight in any project. 2 beams on this job were particularly wonky, other than that they were pretty normal. 

And as I said, I'm fine with him making us do it perfect, what irritates me is him saying "at this point it's done very well, and is going to perform structurally as well as it can, but unless you give me something free I will nit pick every last 1/4". That to me says he's just being a jerk. 

Been some good responses though. I think I will just send him a change order and a price for every little thing not explicitly written into the contract before we do it.


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## GregB (Jan 8, 2016)

I am an engineer and can completely understand wanting it to be right. I would find his offer to accept it as-is in exchange for something else for free to be unacceptable.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I don't get it. Either it's completed per the contract or it's not. If it is, then he can screw off. If it isn't you need to fix it. No "deals".


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

GregB said:


> I am an engineer and can completely understand wanting it to be right. I would find his offer to accept it as-is in exchange for something else for free to be unacceptable.


In my world there a difference between "practically right" wherein something will function as designed and intended to its full capacity even if not "technically right". For example, a slab with a full 10" beam that's 2" off center is going to perform the same whether the beams are exactly centered or not, to say nothing of an 11" beam that has 1/2" of dirt encroaching into the approved beam area. 

This guy is also obsessing over wedge anchors vs epoxied anchors to hold down the steel base plates for 12x12 timber posts. Practically speaking, either one will hold the steel to the concrete long after the wood post has blown away in a tornado, but technically speaking, only epoxied anchors are approved, and it will be miles of red tape to get wedge anchors even considered. 

So while I live in the real world of practicality, this guy does not but lives in the world of technicality. I can appreciate his thinking to a point, but at some point I think you should realize you're working with dirt not stain grade ornamental trim, and dispense with measuring grade beams to the nth degree. That's probably why I would not be a good engineer.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

What a douche. 

We have all been there, hoss. Good reminder to stay away from a-holes. 

Good luck.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Fight idiocy with intelligence, patience, integrity and perseverance...as tough as it may be. 
You'll win in the end and sleep better.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

It's a curious thing, isn't it?

The customer slams down with specs and standards but is willing to trade those away for a few dollars.

Makes you wonder how he is on his day job..


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## dave_dj1 (Mar 16, 2010)

industry standards.........that is all


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Acceptable industry tolerances


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## river rider (Dec 31, 2012)

Manipulative sounds about right. So does conniving. Some people are determined to get more than they pay for, and some go to pretty slimy, but perhaps legal ways to do it. Many like to think it's because they are so much smarter than you, not because they are slimy.

If you were doing the concrete only, I'd probably just push through and put it behind you. It sounds like you are GC ing it right through finish. I'd have a frank talk with the guy on how this tactic doesn't sit well, and a cooperative, fair approach to the project is best for both parties. Kind of put it out there point blank and try to set a tone for the relationship that you are not just going to let the guy weasel you around. Good quality work done to spec is a reasonable expectation, blackmail for freebies is simply not going to happen. I'd try to stay professional about it, but not very accommodating. 

You might have a whole bunch of examples ready of stupid items that you MIGHT need further extensive clarification and and written documentation on, right down to the minute meaningless detail. -Or 500 details. 

And you MIGHT need him to personally visually inspect and sign off on every single fastener placement in the entire structure because you need to ensure it is satisfactory to him. If he can't be onsite to do those inspections at least 6 separate specified times every day, he will be impeding the progress of the project type of thing. And that has a cost associated with it. And, oh, maybe he should have considered needing to take a leave of absence from his job, in order to properly build his project, etc.

Obviously you have to be careful about this, and do it to just the right degree. But, turning peoples own tactics against them can be a highly effective "cooperation builder". No one wants to get mired down on 600 or 1000 additional pages of useless documentation.

Anyway, it's just a thought. Some variation of this might be useful for you. The root wall for free crap is a really bad sign, and obvious sheisterism. And it's still early in the game. I'd be inclined to establish quite clearly that this is not going to be how it goes. Try to make his problems HIS problems.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

GregB said:


> I am an engineer and can completely understand wanting it to be right. I would find his offer to accept it as-is in exchange for something else for free to be unacceptable.


I agree. Not only that but whose to say that he won't get selective amnesia and suddenly forget the deal that you made. Or even worse, what if he isn't 100% happy with the root barrier? Is he going to say, "I'll ignore the issue with the root barrier that's supposed to make me ignore the issue with the slab if you give me another freebie. 4 months from now the discussion will be, "I gave my customer $40,000 in free upgrades and he is holding the final payment until I fix his slab." 

I can be a picky customer also. But if I decide to let something slide, then I just let it slide.


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