# Southern Finishers



## wallnatural (Oct 21, 2013)

Just moved to the south from GR Michigan and Im noticing huge differences in the quality. Humped joints seem to be the norm and what is this point up crap. We always sanded using lights and when we handed it over to the painter we were done. If we had to "point up" piss poor quality workmanship then backcharges were soon to follow. I can understand fixing damage nicks, dings, etc. but thats it and we got paid to do this. The finishers down here also seem to be 100% against automatic tools boxes etc. I guess this yank is going to have to adapt just wondering if I was the only one to notice


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

I can assure you not all drywall contractors in the South do hack jobs like the clowns you're working with. 

Now there are of plenty low budget builders here that hire unskilled workers that call themselves hangers and finishers. I'll give ya that. :thumbsup:


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

It's up to the superintendent to set the bar for quality. The finishers will get by with what they can, especially if they are piece workers. Super has to get it right before the painters, or suffer the consequences of schedule delays, poor quality finished product, etc. 

Hacks are hacks, not matter if they are Yankees, South of the Mason Dixon, or South of the border. It's got nothing to do with locale.


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

So what part of the south we talking


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## wallnatural (Oct 21, 2013)

country_huck said:


> So what part of the south we talking


North Cackalack Its a very big commercial outfit that I work for one of the largest in the country its crazy to me because I was a Sub of Subs for 7 yrs and had good success and the subs in Michigan make some of these hourly professionals look like amateurs. I came up using automatic tools and learned to hand coat afterwards so I try to mimic the box work with my hand while these guys seem to pile the mud on and use powersanders to "plane" it back down. Its not just a few ppl in the co. it seems to be a company cultural thing down here. I used to travel the U.S. doing retro-fits so Ive seen craftsmanship in WA, IA, FL, SC, TX, CO and they all seemed to be great craftsman but while doing work in DC, VA, and NC they all seem to all finish this way. I think sanding in between coats would help but they think Im crazy for suggesting it.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

wallnatural said:


> North Cackalack Its a very big commercial outfit that I work for one of the largest in the country its crazy to me because I was a Sub of Subs for 7 yrs and had good success and the subs in Michigan make some of these hourly professionals look like amateurs. I came up using automatic tools and learned to hand coat afterwards so I try to mimic the box work with my hand while these guys seem to pile the mud on and use powersanders to "plane" it back down. Its not just a few ppl in the co. it seems to be a company cultural thing down here. I used to travel the U.S. doing retro-fits so Ive seen craftsmanship in WA, IA, FL, SC, TX, CO and they all seemed to be great craftsman but while doing work in DC, VA, and NC they all seem to all finish this way. I think sanding in between coats would help but they think Im crazy for suggesting it.


Get use to it white boy!!!


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

I've got less geographical experience than you, but my experience is that trade responsibilities and practices vary dramatically with region.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

blacktop said:


> Get use to it white boy!!!


What I should say is....There good for business !!!:thumbup:


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## wallnatural (Oct 21, 2013)

blacktop said:


> What I should say is....There good for business !!!:thumbup:


Huh? didnt get that one...but your right about the white part last of a dying breed in this industry but to be honest the spanish finishers are better in most cases IMO cant find any white boys to finish anymore


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

wallnatural said:


> Huh? didnt get that one...but your right about the white part last of a dying breed in this industry but to be honest the spanish finishers are better in most cases IMO cant find any white boys to finish anymore


.....:sad:......


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

blacktop said:


> What I should say is....There good for business !!!:thumbup:


Did you mean to say that "they are" good for business? 

Please explain.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

To the OP, what is GR Michigan? 

Sorry I'm just a dumb hillbilly. :laughing:


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

mudpad said:


> To the OP, what is GR Michigan? Sorry I'm just a dumb hillbilly. :laughing:


I'm guessing Grand Rapids.


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## wallnatural (Oct 21, 2013)

Grand Rapids, MI .... didnt mean to come off as arrogant or go North Vs. South on "ya'll" me and my wife love it down here but as a craftsman its aggravating. Ill keep doing things the best way I know how and if I get fired for good quality then tuff titties....btw Ive crushed every budget this company has given me on said jobs and didn't have to put out a ****ty product to do so. They are so production minded that guys cut corners to appear fast but at the end of the job they blow their budgets by having to fix all of their cut corners. In the end it pays to do it thorough the first time:thumbsup:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

mudpad said:


> Did you mean to say that "they are" good for business?
> 
> Please explain.


no... I said ''there'':laughing:


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

wallnatural said:


> Grand Rapids, MI *.... didnt mean to come off as arrogant or go North Vs. South on "ya'll" me and my wife love it down here but as a craftsman its aggravating. Ill keep doing things the best way I know how and if I get fired for good quality then tuff titties..[/B:thumbsup:*


*

Wall......Yeah. your not arrogant at all, just a little different trade standards and operations.....

And despite N/S cultural differences, the BBQ is great.... and I never noticed tough titties at all...

Best to ya*


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I've actually seen it as a strategy. Hump it right up and sand it off. You can use low skill / low pay labor to do that. Considering the finishing materials / labor cost breakdown, I think it could be more profitable than conventional, careful finishing.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

hdavis said:


> I've actually seen it as a strategy. Hump it right up and sand it off. You can use low skill / low pay labor to do that. Considering the finishing materials / labor cost breakdown, I think it could be more profitable than conventional, careful finishing.


I'm the worlds slowest taper when I have to do a small job myself.... and I'm even slower sanding........

So I can't really understand how sanding would be more economical than just applying a satisfactory tape coat.

But .... intersting proposition/idea....


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> So I can't really understand how sanding would be more economical than just applying a satisfactory tape coat.


They use a power sander, like a porter cable orbital. The first time I saw it, there was just a huge cloud of dust - it smoothed it down real fast.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Why put it on to just take it off again? I can tape a whole house with very little sanding.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I can tape a whole house with no sanding. Nobody ever sanded plaster, you don't have to sand when using setting or drying mud either. It apparently can be cheaper to hire low skilled people to slap compound on and power sand it off, that's all


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

wallnatural said:


> Just moved to the south from GR Michigan and Im noticing huge differences in the quality. Humped joints seem to be the norm and what is this point up crap. We always sanded using lights and when we handed it over to the painter we were done. If we had to "point up" piss poor quality workmanship then backcharges were soon to follow. I can understand fixing damage nicks, dings, etc. but thats it and we got paid to do this. The finishers down here also seem to be 100% against automatic tools boxes etc. I guess this yank is going to have to adapt just wondering if I was the only one to notice


For some developers/builders it's all about quantity not quality :sad:


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

hdavis said:


> They use a power sander, like a porter cable orbital. The first time I saw it, there was just a huge cloud of dust - it smoothed it down real fast.


They are 'spose to attach a shop vac to that thing.


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

They are so used to covering everything with texture they can get away with lousy tape job. When the building boom was and on everything was about speed, get it done and go to the next one. In a lot of cases that meant 1 tape coat then spray with texture and move on.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

mudpad said:


> They are 'spose to attach a shop vac to that thing.


Windows open and a box fan blowing it out - still thick dust.


Besides, those Shop Vac bags cost more money than a cheap mask.


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

hdavis said:


> Windows open and a box fan blowing it out - still thick dust. Besides, those Shop Vac bags cost more money than a cheap mask.


 When I have to sand in finished house I use rigid shop vac with heap 5 filter . Dewalt orbital sander hooked to hose . Zero dust in house and no bags . So pretty cheap to run just hit filter in black bag and reuse .


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## wallnatural (Oct 21, 2013)

The quantity vs quality thing is def the case here I think. Only thing is the developer always wants all the poor quality fixed during point up and punchlists so they win and the Interiors Contractor loses unless they are fixing excessive point up and punchlists in their bids which may be the case. Counter productive IMO and I dont think there is a good case for it I really just think its unwillingness to change with the times or they think automatic tools are going to run them out of a job


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

I guess I'll ask the dumb question " What is point up?"


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## wallnatural (Oct 21, 2013)

ToolNut said:


> I guess I'll ask the dumb question " What is point up?"


Not dumb to me...didnt hear of it til I moved here. What the GC does is includes a point up in the bid so when the interiors contractor is done with the job and the job has been primed and 1st coated in paint the interiors contractor owes the GC one round of "point up" I think the intention is to go through and hit any nicks or dings created during the construction phase but what I have seen is rework of shiitey workmanship. They dont sand properly they just power sand and Go they are supposed to pick up a sanding block but they dont and they're doing it in the dark so how the hell could ya see anything. So once its painted and the permanent lighting comes on they have to go back and hit all these nicks and dings. It makes sense but for dings and minimal damage only. I was on a very high profile job down here biggest hospital in the state over a 2year project and the point up was ridiculous. Some walls had joints showing all the way down the hallway and the foremans response was "they didnt want to pay for a level 5" a level 4 still has to be flat I mean a level 5 isnt going to flatten out speedbumps its just meant to eliminate flashing and bring consistantcy.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> I can tape a whole house with no sanding. Nobody ever sanded plaster, you don't have to sand when using setting or drying mud either. It apparently can be cheaper to hire low skilled people to slap compound on and power sand it off, that's all


 You can't tell me you have no lap marks. You have to pull your knife up someplace, especially when you run metal. I suppose you can cut them off with your knife, but sanding them works best for me. Although it only takes me about an hour of sanding between coats, for a whole house.


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## Bencouver (Sep 17, 2009)

i am all about humping and sanding


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## wallnatural (Oct 21, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> You can't tell me you have no lap marks. You have to pull your knife up someplace, especially when you run metal. I suppose you can cut them off with your knife, but sanding them works best for me. Although it only takes me about an hour of sanding between coats, for a whole house.


Sanding between coats catches me a lot of flack down here but its so worth it to me It only takes an hour or so even on a whole floor of a skyscraper if you got 10 guys have em all sand 1st thing in the morning for a half hour or so. Your final sand will in turn be that much easier because your only sanding one layer and it will be flat and not humped in places. Equals an win win for me big or small jobs thats my method and I can fly through my point up without having to re-do work. A lot of these ole schoolers think they can do work without sanding or just scraping down laps yeah right the tip of the lap mark scrapes off but the majority of it remains causing a hump on your next coat they will never get it...if you hump out your 1st coat and seal it in with another coat of mud you "aint" sanding that down or if you do your gonna be grinding on it for awhile.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

wallnatural said:


> Sanding between coats catches me a lot of flack down here but its so worth it to me It only takes an hour or so even on a whole floor of a skyscraper if you got 10 guys have em all sand 1st thing in the morning for a half hour or so. Your final sand will in turn be that much easier because your only sanding one layer and it will be flat and not humped in places. Equals an win win for me big or small jobs thats my method and I can fly through my point up without having to re-do work. A lot of these ole schoolers think they can do work without sanding or just scraping down laps yeah right the tip of the lap mark scrapes off but the majority of it remains causing a hump on your next coat they will never get it...if you hump out your 1st coat and seal it in with another coat of mud you "aint" sanding that down or if you do your gonna be grinding on it for awhile.


Well said. :thumbsup:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

ToolNut said:


> I guess I'll ask the dumb question " What is point up?"


It's when the G/C needs to hire a new trim and floor man!


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> You can't tell me you have no lap marks. You have to pull your knife up someplace, especially when you run metal. I suppose you can cut them off with your knife, but sanding them works best for me. Although it only takes me about an hour of sanding between coats, for a whole house.


I sand or don't depending on what I'm working with, timing of set or drying, ... I agree, if you're doing it right, it's just a very fast, light sanding.

My point was there are drywall firms around here that intentionally put on more mud, and do it sloppily, knowing that they're going to be power sanding it flat.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

hdavis said:


> I can tape a whole house with no sanding. Nobody ever sanded plaster, you don't have to sand when using setting or drying mud either. It apparently can be cheaper to hire low skilled people to slap compound on and power sand it off, that's all


.....:whistling


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## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

hdavis said:


> I can tape a whole house with no sanding. Nobody ever sanded plaster, you don't have to sand when using setting or drying mud either. It apparently can be cheaper to hire low skilled people to slap compound on and power sand it off, that's all


Plaster also took a month to do a small house, if the weather was nice. In todays world you must sand, dont need to power sand but a lil sanding between coats and depending on finish ( smooth, textured) more sanding. If you can get the painters to do a sanding between there coats it will turn out even nicer:thumbsup: Not saying that it cant be done ( no sanding) but in todays world a " I dont sand anything guy" probably isnt too busy:no:


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## Bencouver (Sep 17, 2009)

wallnatural said:


> Sanding between coats catches me a lot of flack down here but its so worth it to me It only takes an hour or so even on a whole floor of a skyscraper if you got 10 guys have em all sand 1st thing in the morning for a half hour or so. Your final sand will in turn be that much easier because your only sanding one layer and it will be flat and not humped in places. Equals an win win for me big or small jobs thats my method and I can fly through my point up without having to re-do work. A lot of these ole schoolers think they can do work without sanding or just scraping down laps yeah right the tip of the lap mark scrapes off but the majority of it remains causing a hump on your next coat they will never get it...if you hump out your 1st coat and seal it in with another coat of mud you "aint" sanding that down or if you do your gonna be grinding on it for awhile.


i agree one hundred percent. sanding makes for a way better finish and i believe it makes both coats faster. you can cruise through first coat because your not being fussy and trying to make it pretty and second coat is a uniform skim over an already flat surface. sanding is the bee's knee's. hi chris and moore. it's carpentaper from drywall land.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

blacktop said:


> .....:whistling


How do you attach a power cord to that?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

blacktop said:


> .....:whistling


What's that:laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

iDAHOchris said:


> Plaster also took a month to do a small house, if the weather was nice. In todays world you must sand, dont need to power sand but a lil sanding between coats and depending on finish ( smooth, textured) more sanding. If you can get the painters to do a sanding between there coats it will turn out even nicer:thumbsup: Not saying that it cant be done ( no sanding) but in todays world a " I dont sand anything guy" probably isnt too busy:no:


I haven't tried power sanding, but traditional light sanding is fastest for me, coupled with knives and pan. In the cases where I'm doing patching or skimming with durabond and acrylic admix as a base coat, I bring a carbide scraper if it has set, or shave it if I'm there at the right time - sand paper doesn't do anything to it.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

hdavis said:


> What's that:laughing:


It's what I use on sand day. A large sanding sponge .


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