# Question about my new Unit Installation



## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

Here are a few photos of the new Heatpump that was recently installed in my home. Just a new coil and outside unit was installed the furnace is original. It appears that the installer favors the use of tape as he used about a roll of it to seal the gaps. I'm not planning to showcase my install so I don't really care that it's not real pretty, but the tape the installer used is already coming lose in a few spots. I pulled some off just to see how well it was sticking. Since this unit has an access panel on the side should mastic be used to seal the gaps or should I just get some better tape? Also there is a lot of cold air coming out of the PVC condensate line, is this normal?

Thanks

Rob


----------



## playsinmud (Jan 25, 2008)

Ir comming out of the PVC is normal. The tape is somewhat normal (usually neater) but the tape comming off isn't good. He probably used old or a real cheap kind of tape. Are you happy with this unit yet or do you still wich it had a different compressor? Did you ask the contractor about the upgrade? Just curious to see how things are going there?


----------



## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

playsinmud said:


> Ir comming out of the PVC is normal. The tape is somewhat normal (usually neater) but the tape comming off isn't good. He probably used old or a real cheap kind of tape. Are you happy with this unit yet or do you still wich it had a different compressor? Did you ask the contractor about the upgrade? Just curious to see how things are going there?


So far I'm happy with the performance of the unit. I decided to not worry about the compressor. It sounds like the compressor I have has been around for a long time and the reliability has always been good. Performance wise who knows if I would perceive the difference. It's just not worth making a fuss over.


----------



## playsinmud (Jan 25, 2008)

It was a good idea on your part to replace the a/c with this unit. Where we are we don't bother with air to air (it's colder climare) We use ground source heat pumps and they work great. But for where you are I think you'll see substantial savings in the shoulder months, spring and fall. You should try to document to see the overall performance in the first year. By the way sorry for comming across so rude on earlier threads. I have just been dealing with a very ummm.. intersting home owner. And of course we can't say to the people that need to hear hit, what we really want to say.. So once again sorry.. But I'm interested how the air to air performs


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

The air coming out of the pvc is not only a waste but you don't need a trap as the coil is on the positive side of the air flow. You can have him come back and do some better taping and remove the trap. A trap is only required when the coil is on the negative side of the air flow, so the unit will drain condensate.


----------



## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

The tape should have the UL listing number written on it continuously.If it has no markings showing UL approval then it is illegal to use in International code areas as of 06.


----------



## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

playsinmud said:


> It was a good idea on your part to replace the a/c with this unit. Where we are we don't bother with air to air (it's colder climare) We use ground source heat pumps and they work great. But for where you are I think you'll see substantial savings in the shoulder months, spring and fall. You should try to document to see the overall performance in the first year. By the way sorry for comming across so rude on earlier threads. I have just been dealing with a very ummm.. intersting home owner. And of course we can't say to the people that need to hear hit, what we really want to say.. So once again sorry.. But I'm interested how the air to air performs


The temps have been ranging from upper 40s to over 80 a couple of days since we got the heatpump. So far it seems the heatpump is heating just fine. I think at these higher temps when the t-stat is still calling for heat, I'm getting longer run times with the heatpump than I was with propane and it feels warmer. 

No worries with rudeness, I'm pretty tough. I get fired up occasionally myself and mouth off so I probably deserved it.


----------



## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

randomkiller said:


> The air coming out of the pvc is not only a waste but you don't need a trap as the coil is on the positive side of the air flow. You can have him come back and do some better taping and remove the trap. A trap is only required when the coil is on the negative side of the air flow, so the unit will drain condensate.


Are you saying the trap and the air gap should come out? I'm not sure how this would keep it from wasting air, would the air not just come out of the end of the tube at the air break where it goes under the concrete?


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

This is the time of the year that heat pumps are great. It's actually better that it (the appliance) runs a long time instead of cycling on and off. Don't get me wrong, when it gets cold, one wants real heat and that is when h.p's aren't so great, but since you have propane as a back-up, you have what in my opinion is the best setup


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> The air coming out of the pvc is not only a waste but you don't need a trap as the coil is on the positive side of the air flow. You can have him come back and do some better taping and remove the trap. A trap is only required when the coil is on the negative side of the air flow, so the unit will drain condensate.


One should not remove the trap. It's there to prevent air from getting sucked through the condensate drain line. However,the "vent" should be relocated downstream of the trap. Good eye.


----------



## awtr3y (May 7, 2008)

Wow, no offense but that is one ugly installation. Did you use the cheapest guy in town? The coil is restricting the furnaces airflow by being smaller than the furnace outlet. A good tinner does not need tape if it does need sealed duct sealant is to be used. You do not need the trap or the tee this guy obviously does not know when to use what so he just always install them. 

Good Luck I would call a pro to come out and fix this right tell that guy to take his undersized coil back.

If you dont mind I would like to add these pictures to my wall of shame 

Trane would drop that guy in a heartbeat if they seen someone installing there equipment ike that.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

I believe one should keep the trap because he would be drawing air from the condensate line otherwise. Unless there was a condensate pump, then that would serve as a trap. Without a trap, the drainage would be "restricted" while the blower was operating. If I am wrong, (which does happen), could you explain when one needs to trap a condensate line?


----------



## BigMikeB (Aug 1, 2007)

flashheatingand said:


> One should not remove the trap. It's there to prevent air from getting sucked through the condensate drain line. However,the "vent" should be relocated downstream of the trap. Good eye.


It would be pretty hard for air to get sucked into a coil cabinet with a blower forcing air into the coil, you NEVER use a trap on a positive pressure coil. There would never be a time that the air pressure on the drain fitting would be below 14 psia. I also agree that's a rough looking install, he installer can't have much pride in his work.


----------



## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

awtr3y said:


> Wow, no offense but that is one ugly installation. Did you use the cheapest guy in town? The coil is restricting the furnaces airflow by being smaller than the furnace outlet. A good tinner does not need tape if it does need sealed duct sealant is to be used. You do not need the trap or the tee this guy obviously does not know when to use what so he just always install them.
> 
> Good Luck I would call a pro to come out and fix this right tell that guy to take his undersized coil back.
> 
> ...


Feel free to add it you your wall of shame. 

This guy basically worked as a sub to a restoration contractor my insurance co. sent out when a tree hit the side of my house smashing my condensor unit. The insurance co paid the restoration contractor and the contractor paid the guy that installed the unit. He seemed OK. He said he could replace my Goodman with a Trane and I knew the insurance co. would agree to the estimate since it was their own direct contractor who was doing the job. I got hosed, plain and simple. The guy told me he could replace my 10 seer Goodman AC inside and out with a 13 seer Trane and for an extra 1K he would replace it with a heat pump giving me propane and electric for heat. He said he would use a vision Pro stat and I knew that was the way to go. I thought I was getting a little more than I deserved from the insurance co. so I went for it. 

I could tell the guy was a bit shady from the begining, and it turned out I knew his partner. I expected a less than perfect install and I can over look a sloppy tape job. I can always re-tape it myself. I did not think for a second that he was a Trane dealer and figured he was going to purchase the unit sideways. Hold on it gets even better. The day of the install the guy shows up right on time, to the minute. The 1st thing he says it that we may have a problem. He forgot the new stat needed more than a 4 conductor cable, and he was afraid he would have a problem fishing a new wire. I told him no worries, I could have his wire up behind the stat in less than 1/2 hour. It ended up taking about 15 minutes. I did not care, I had fun doing it. I should have pulled the plug at that point, but instead I solved his problem for him. That was a mistake. He was there for about 30 minutes and I came around the side of the house and heard a loud hissing noise. I said to myself, He's not just dumping it out is he? Well when I looked I saw no tank or gages, just the valve open and the r22 leaking out. I should have called the police at this point, but I stayed the course. I was wondering since he arrived if he planned on humping in the unit himself since he was alone, but about 1.5 hours into it a truck shows up with his partner and another guy. The unit is in the back. I walk up and notice the name on the truck is from one of the largest heating and plumbing contractors in the state. My parents just happen to be very close friends with the deseased founder and his deseased wife and as luck would have it the 3rd guy in the truck is the son of one of the family members that owns the company now and this guy knows my parents and me very well. Atleast now I know how this guy is getting a Trane unit. He is buying it from the son of the owner of a large contractor, who happens to have a horible reputation for quality. I would never use their services. All I can say is it turned out to be one web of a mess. Now I'm pissed at myself for doing it. I knew better, but thought I was getting over on the insurance co. 

Please feel free to pick it apart. If you really think my airflow is significantly affected by the smaller coil than I just may try and get myself out of this mess. Like I said I don't care if it's sloppy, but if my performance is far reduced I care. 

I pulled some more tape off and took a few more photos. :furious:


----------



## awtr3y (May 7, 2008)

If you look inside the furnace on the name plate it normally has an acceptable temperature rise usually 40-70 degrees take a return inlet temp with a clean filter and a discharge air temp if that number exceeds the 70 number then your airflow is probably restricted. I would get a pro involved at this point if you want to try and get it done right.

Good Luck :blink:

Big Mike has it right. you only install a trap on a draw through coil. Usually an electric furnace. Even if that was a draw through coil the tee would make the trap irrelevant.


----------



## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

awtr3y said:


> If you look inside the furnace on the name plate it normally has an acceptable temperature rise usually 40-70 degrees take a return inlet temp with a clean filter and a discharge air temp if that number exceeds the 70 number then your airflow is probably restricted. I would get a pro involved at this point if you want to try and get it done right.
> 
> Good Luck :blink:
> 
> Big Mike has it right. you only install a trap on a draw through coil. Usually an electric furnace. Even if that was a draw through coil the tee would make the trap irrelevant.


Thanks for the info. I measured 67 inside the filter box and then poked a hole through the tape just above the coil and got a 150. So I have an 83 degree difference. My sticker says the range is 35 to 65. Does this mean it's going to cook my heat exchanger?


----------



## awtr3y (May 7, 2008)

Thats what that means. Janitrol furnace with propane cycling on high limit. Yea thats not good.:no:


----------



## wrenchman (Jan 5, 2008)

That my friend is one of the most hack installs I have seen. He should have added a transition between the coil box and the furnace or got a coil that fit your furnace. Relying on foil tape, hell why not take the pics top a lawyer and see if you can get enough to have a priofessional company come out and show you how it should have been done in the first place.


----------



## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

wrenchman said:


> That my friend is one of the most hack installs I have seen. He should have added a transition between the coil box and the furnace or got a coil that fit your furnace. Relying on foil tape, hell why not take the pics top a lawyer and see if you can get enough to have a priofessional company come out and show you how it should have been done in the first place.


I really don't want to throw the guy under the bus. I spoke to him today and he said allthough he thinks the coil is OK he will do what ever it takes to make me happy. I'll give him a chance to make it right. I don't care if it's not the best looking job as long as it's not being restricted or has other significant performance issues as a result of the install. I can live with the sloppy tape and other cosmetic details. I don't really look at the thing unless I'm changing the filter and I'm pretty much the only person that sees it. 

These pics show what it looks like from the inside looking down into the furnace. Does appear to be obviously restricted?

Rob


----------



## wrenchman (Jan 5, 2008)

Generally speaking if the part of the job that you see looks really bad and sloppy, the parts you don't see are much worse. There are basic steps or practices to doing a job and when those corners are cut the owner is getting it in the back.


----------



## westernhvac (May 26, 2008)

The heat exchangers in your furnace don't look exceptionally good. I do believe that Goodman had fixed their ring popping problem by 1993 though. 

Also, I agree, that is one bad looking install and when it is ugly, 9 times out of ten it doesn't work right.


----------

