# Best practices for removal of moldy drywall ???



## akm (Nov 13, 2007)

akm said:


> ...we should probably recommend that an 'expert' be hired to assess the damage and recommend remediation steps, and then as a general contractor we could put the place back together after ? If that be the process, how would we find such an 'expert', and how should we evaluate them beyond the normal subcontractor qualification measures ?


Insuranceclaims: Thank you for the followup info !
Photos (by owner, a close relative of ours, so at least some flexibility with learning curve) are attached (sorry about photo of hole, but just shows opng below p-trap in clg above and used to determining source of leak).
Work is being covered by above (5th level of 8-story steel and concrete condo) condo owners insurance, but dont know the details.
Plumbing repair is also being handled by the owner above (their tub was leaking from the overflow gasket when lady filled tub and then got in).
All walls adjacent on subject level are within the subject unit, ie none of subject bathroom walls adjacent to other condo units.
We did a 'locate a pro' search at the IICRC website for remediation companies in our area, and got...
- SUPERIOR CLEANING & RESTORATION 
- SERVICEMASTER OF SEATTLE
- SERVPRO OF EDMONDS & LYNNWOOD 
- SERVICEMASTER OF SEATTLE 
Called one, and they explained how they would come out and (paraphrasing) seal off the room, remove, hepa clean, leave their room seal for our work, etc (around $1200 for 2-men, one day) and then we could come in and re-build.
Also ask them about air sampling, and they could provide that service with a 3rd party sub (about $1500 additional per talk with air sampler firm) to check air, carpet, etc, b4 and after their remediation work.
So, guess we could write a contract to... rebuild after plumbing is repaired, and mold remediation and air sampling is done (per IICRC-SR520) by an IICRC certified firm who would: (quoting IICRC) identify moisture sources, evaluate mold growth (visible or suspected), to contain damage to the smallest area possible, to physically remove contamination, to dry materials to ensure that mold will not return, and to recommend procedures for returning property to a pre-loss condition. 
Sound reasonable ?


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

If you sub all this out, you probably won't get the job. It will cost too much, that's not a competitive way to do it in this economy. I've done some repair work bids in the Seattle area and offered to do it for dirt cheap, practically working for free, but na, they said I cost too much.

All the water damage jobs I've done are basically carried out the same way. 
1. Tear off damaged drywall or siding, in your case drywall, and check near by areas with moisture meter, if it reads high, tear off drywall.
2. Inspect damage behind wall.
3. Dry out water damaged area, usually just need a dehumidifier, on floors you can use blowers.
4. If there is wood rot, scrape away rot and cover with wood preservative. Unless the rot is deep enough in which it loses structural integrity, then it's got to be replaced.
5. Mold can usually be scraped away too, unless it's set into the wood too deep. One problem with mold is that insurance companies usually won't cover it. If the mold is so bad that an entire wall has to be replaced, the insurance company will probably shake their head and not pay for it. Something you'll have to negotiate if you run into that problem.
6. Leave the dehumidifier on, once everything is dried out, cleaned and structurally intact, you can cover.


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## akm (Nov 13, 2007)

KennMacMoragh said:


> If you sub all this out, you probably won't get the job. It will cost too much, that's not a competitive way to do it in this economy. I've done some repair work bids in the Seattle area and offered to do it for dirt cheap, practically working for free, but na, they said I cost too much.


Thank you for the local perspective !
As you indicate, construction projects are few and far between these days... and to a large part, from what I gather talking with other contractor friends, because of 'un-licensed' competition.
The process you outline would certainly seem the simplest way to handle the project (ie closer to the 'moled hill' instead of the 'mountain', per previous post).
But, since it is a highrise condo, and given the nature of condo associations and owners (and their lawyers and insurance companies), am inclined to treat it as a 'if we get the job, fine & if we dont get the job, fine'.
We are not mold remediation experts, do not want to become, and only want to be able to work with them.
We have an 'in' at this particular condo building, but these days that does not mean a lot (as you indicated), but Id rather play it 'by the book' in this case.
BTW, we would only be 'subbing out' the remediation part of the project, not the replacement part.


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## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

Frankawitz said:


> The product is called Mold Control they make a fogger that you can use to fog a room it will cover the Mold spores and it makes the Mold dry out which in turn kills the spores. They sell it at Home Depot in the paint dept.


I use a abatement supplier from my lead abatement days and it's called shockwave. It's guaranteed to kill 99% on contact. I've never heard of a fogger Frank. But I've never looked in the Depot for any of that stuff.

When are ya going to come over to this side of the state and teach me how to do that plaster crown stuff?


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## HomeElements (Nov 9, 2009)

Isnt the the cut off for just cutting out the molded drywall without haveing to involve Mold remediation 32sf or less. I went through the IICRC training and became certified, but that was years before Katrina, has that changed, if anyone knows?


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

I've dealt with alot of water damage and mold. Alot. 95% can be dealt with common sense. The other 5% is a pain , nasty suff, mostly from un-noticed slow water leaks.


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

Paul,
Yeah the Depot carrys the foggers in the Rental shop, I was on line the other day, and came across this company that makes Industrial Vaccums and they also sell the foggers that you use the Mold Control. These foggers fill the whole room and it incapsilates the Mold and it drys the Mold out which in turn it kills the spores. 
As for the Plaster Crown mouldings did you see the new pictures I put up?
If you want e mail me and we can talk about what you need to know on how this is done. I have made a few videos I was thinking of selling them but who knows. But let me know.


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## akm (Nov 13, 2007)

Big Shoe said:


> I've dealt with alot of water damage and mold. Alot. 95% can be dealt with common sense. The other 5% is a pain , nasty suff, mostly from un-noticed slow water leaks.


... if you can get everyone concerned on the same common-sense page.
BTW, this question is in ref to a slow water leak, which who knows how far down the 4-stories below it may have gone.


HomeElements said:


> Isnt the the cut off for just cutting out the molded drywall without haveing to involve Mold remediation 32sf or less. I went through the IICRC training and became certified, but that was years before Katrina, has that changed, if anyone knows?


Good question.
Would be nice to look at the IICRC S520 2nd Edition for a possible answer per ICCRC standards, but that would take $130 + tax/delivery, and too many days for us to wait.
BTW, called one of the 'certified' remediation firms and they are going to drop by a copy today... another piece of the learning curve 
EPA has really nothing much to say about it, other than different types of remediation measures for areas greater and less than 10sf, but nothing worth referencing since all are 'recommendations', and they have no official regulations to reference... but a lot of good info resources re 'mold'.
Of course, from what I am hearing, IICRC S520 only offers recommendations, but at least we would be able to limit our 'expert' references to one recognized organization.


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## Insuranceclaims (Aug 31, 2009)

Here is some additional information that might be helpful. For those not in the Seattle area, I recommend all visit the IICRC site and tak a Water Restoration Technician Course in your area.

Just in case you didn't know, 3 of the 4 vendors you listed are part of national franchises. I also viewed, online, where the other vendor has a long term history in the community and also was purchased in recent years by a national franchise.....all sound like good choices...........just a matter who you are comfortable with.

Couple of additional points to consider:

1) Will the vendor have a separate contract with your customer or will they act as a sub to you. If as a sub, make sure that they have GL, work comp and pollution liability (coverage for any type of mold remediation). 

Have them name you as additionally insured with an insurance cert.

If you have them sign a separate contract, make sure that they understand that they are not to overshadow your company and solicite other work while on site at the condos.

This may or may not matter to you: did they offer you a referral fee or discount from their billing fee?

2) The $1,200 sounds fair for the remediation and dry out. Also request a full documented report of water damaged areas, photos, and ask if infrared is part of their fee....may be extra and/or not necessary.

3) Get a written quote for the $1,500 air quality check. For $1,500, get a written breakdown of charges. For this fee, they should be doing an air samples outdoors, a couple indoors and a hard surface sample. This should be done also in the bathroom. Will they include a report of their findings, plus a protocol (report, which recommends how to remediate). After the clearance test, will they provide such a report. You will need a copy of their clearance for the insured (your customer), yourself and, possibly, the condo association. Each sample can be anywhere from $75 to $125 each.

Now, with all of this, is there enough money for you for the repairs. Keep in mind two thoughts if you proceed with this process:

1) While you are giving part of the job away to others, you are protecting all parties concerned.

2) Most important of all, it is better to sub part of the job to qualified others and provide good customer service to your customer and the association.

Maybe, while in the condos, you can meet some of the Board members and solicit other work.

SIDE NOTE ON EDUCATION:

See the www.iicrc.org. In Seattle on 2/16/10, there is an IICRC water damage technician class. The instructor is the manager of the Dri-Eaz Educational program in Burlington (see the education section at www.drieaz.com). If you plan to get more into water damage claims and to understand the importance of structural drying, look into the class in Burlington on 2/8/20, a 5 day combo class for water damage technician/applied structural drying). 

The first class for WRT is a 2-day class, which would be great for you. This would open a new area for your services.........we can discuss investment and oportunities by phone if you want. I highly recommend this class.

This 2nd class is a five day course of classroom and hands-on experience where they flood a home and you actually dry the home.

Please e-mail or call with any other questions.


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## akm (Nov 13, 2007)

Insuranceclaims said:


> Couple of additional points to consider:
> 1) Will the vendor have a separate contract with your customer or will they act as a sub to you. If as a sub, make sure that they have GL, work comp and pollution liability (coverage for any type of mold remediation).
> Have them name you as additionally insured with an insurance cert.
> If you have them sign a separate contract, make sure that they understand that they are not to overshadow your company and solicit other work while on site at the condos.
> ...


Thank you for the followup info !
Am setting up remediation for separate contract directly between insured (owner of unit above, which caused water damage in subject unit) and remediator and IEP (if recommended by remediator) contractors. 
As GC we would offer to assist the insured with selection (verify scope of work, qualifications, etc) of the remediator and IEP... insured is older lady being helped by her nephew.
Will specify as condition of contract, the remediator/IEP are not to communicate about this project and/or their services with other occupants of the building.
Planning to show remediation as an allowance, in the budget estimate cost for our contract, for work done under separate contract. 
Seems insurance companies normally like one cost figure to work with.
Have previously done some minor work for brother-in-law in this 50 unit condo bldg and have somewhat of an 'in' with manager.
Many of owners are older and we specialize in disability/ADA/accessibility upgrades.
Hopefully, if done right, we will be able to do additional work for other condo owners in the bldg.
BTW, (per previous post) got copy of IICRC stds and saw nothing about 'sf scoping'.


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## Insuranceclaims (Aug 31, 2009)

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FreemontREO (previous post): Great response. Is this Mark of Dryout?
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No. While in the area, I was located a couple of miles from where he used to be located....not sure if he is still there.

I have never met this person, but I have received a lot of feedback from others in the area. I will only say that we are not associated in anyway.


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## Insuranceclaims (Aug 31, 2009)

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akm (previous post): BTW, (per previous post) got copy of IICRC stds and saw nothing about 'sf scoping'.
```
This post is in two parts: 1) general information for contractors, who don't specialize in insurance work, and 2) specific information to answer "akm".

Contractor Estimates vs Insurance Estimates
During my travels, throughout the country, I have found that most contractors present 1-page estimates with generalized information for the scope of work and a lump sum cost.

In the insurance world, insurance adjuster/carrier estimates are computerized, line item estimates based on unit pricing in SF and LF costs. While there are many insurance property estimating softwares, the most widely used are Xactimate by Xactware and Integriclaim by Marshall & Swift/Boeckh. If you don't use this software on a regular basis, it can be an expensive cost. Using these softwares also require attending actual classes, employee time, and travel expenses, if they are not located in your area. "Practice makes Perfect" to become proficient with this software.

For the most part, carriers will not pay on lump sum totals. To expedite the claims process, it is helpful if both the contractor and adjuster are on the same page in preparing estimates. If not, claim closure and the issuing of funds can be delayed.

akm current project
Well, it sounds like your making substantial progress in educating yourself, protecting yourself and the customer, and, just plain giving good customer service.

Here are some additional comments/answers and a recap of how I would handle the project:

Insurance estimates are based on measuring rooms in squares and rectangles in SF and LF measurments. So for your bathroom (assuming hall bathroom), if it is rectangled shaped, there are 2 rooms in one:

1) Main room (5 x 5'6" x 8) and the shower/tub area (5 x 2'6" x 8') with a missing wall between these two rooms.
---Remove/replace entire ceiling
---Detach/reset exhaust fan
---Remove/replace insulation, if any
---How much water ran down the walls? If you don't know, you can look for caulk separation behind the toilet or the opposite wall, coming off of tub. Separation or stains to drywall/base will be indication of water damage. At this point, a moisture meter can be used. While any water inside the wall may have dried or passed, the framing may have absorbed the water. Depending on how long and how much water ran down the wall, the water may have traveled along the framing behind the vanity. The side of the vanity should be checked (by hand, visually, moisture meter) for swelling and or water damage. Once the particle board is damaged, it will retain excessive moisture.

You may want to mention these concerns to the IEP and mitigator.........better safe than sorry.......sometimes, I would rather demo for discovery of additional damage than remodel and have a problem later. 

The IEP and or remdiator may appreciate your sugggestion and agree to open the base and drywall behind the toilet for a visual check of damage. This would include:

---Detach/reset toilet
---Remove/replace 3 lf approximately of base
---Remove/replace drywall 2'6" x 2 approximately behind toilet
---Skim entire wall; mostly likely orange peel in bathroom; if this is done, apply 1-2 coats of paint on this wall; 1 coat on other walls; and 2 coats on new ceiling.

Now you will be able to tell whether water damage to vanity or whether water traveled along framing behind vanity.

If vanity damaged or have to remove to access wall cavity for cleaning/drying/remediation, you would add these line items:

---Detach/reset or Remove/Replace mirror (sf) if sitting on backsplash
---Detach/reset or Remove/Replace backsplash (lf)
---Detach/reset or Remove/Replace countertop (lf)
---Detach/reset sink faucet (single or double) (each)
---Detach/reset or Remove/Replace vanity cabinet (lf)

Depending how much water ran down the walls or how the drywall/base looks next to the base of the tile tub surround (if any), you can possible get a visual look at the wall cavities of each end of the tubs....in addition, you should look at the opposite walls at each end of the tubs in the adjoining rooms with both a visual inspection and moisture meters for possible damage.

This will, of course, will increase the size of the loss and can be discussed later.

If you or anyone else would like to see what an Xactimate estimate would look like for a hall bathroom is, please provide your e-mail.

I hope this helps.

With more information, I could provide more detail.


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## Insuranceclaims (Aug 31, 2009)

To FreemontREO:

No, I am not Mark of DryOut.

I am familiar who this person is and where they used to be located. Matter of fact, I sometimes drive by, where they were once located. I do not believe they are in the same building.

While I have never met the person, I have heard that there are several local vendors and restorers around the country, who are not happy with the services provided or lack of. 

I do not plan on getting any first hand experience either.

By the way, the best way to contact me is by a post. I have changed my number and should get an 800# because I sometimes have to change my number, depending on who I am working with.

If anyone has questions or needs help with an insurance claim, I can be of assistance. It doesn't matter whether you are involved at the beginning, middle or end of the claim. Whatever it is, I can help you solve it.

Have a nice day!


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