# after some deliberaton....



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Sorry to hear it. Good luck , man


----------



## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

If you don't like actually going to work in the morning, it's probably time for a change. 

The headaches are everywhere though, regardless.

Ever work for a micro-manager? I did. For a VERY short time.


----------



## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Sometimes it takes the bad days to realize the good ones. 

Before you throw in the towel think back when you decide to go into business for yourself and why. You my inspire yourself to stick with it and build of your lessons you learned.

To be a better company we all strive to be day in day out.


----------



## RS Sam (Feb 9, 2009)

I vote for the downsize option. Be your own boss (clients notwithstanding) and just bring the best you've got to your own job on your own. It is a pretty nice way to work. Been the lead, been the boss, been the GC, being very happy to have only me to account for and am no worse off for the new way of doing business. Just a thought :thumbsup:.


----------



## BradingCon (Dec 17, 2010)

I also have to vote for the downsizing option. Less headaches the less people you have to manage. Also, a lot of people see that the money that they make doesn't change much even though they have a smaller company. I just couldn't give up the time freedom that comes with being my own boss.


----------



## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Why, yes I do.


i'm in metro detroit
steve scholl


----------



## Splinter hands (Aug 31, 2011)

I agree with the others on here to try downsizing first. You will have less headaches that way and when things turn around in a couple years you will still be in the game.:thumbsup:


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I posted a thread a while back about the possibility of going to work for my primary contractor next spring. 

I told him this morning I was tired of running a buisness and no longer found it worth it in the end as of late and that I have every intention of finishing my commitments first. 

Well, long story short, he said give him a few days, that he really wants to keep me around and will put together a job offer for me.


----------



## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Why not just fix the problem? Owning a business can be fun. Its supposed to be fun.


----------



## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Are you hittin' the sauce already this morning, Mike? :blink:

_Fun?!_ Are you nucking futs? :laughing:


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

katoman said:


> I'm pretty much unemployable. Too old, too fussy, too cranky, and I forget things easily. :laughing:


you forgot smelly:clap:


----------



## clancrawford55 (Nov 20, 2011)

Once every few months my boss looses it, says he is going to close shop & go to work for the town or something. He will spend the whole day yelling at us & telling everyone they need to find another job. The next day he will realize that he could NEVER work for anyone else as it is always his way or the highway & he does not take orders well @ all. After running the business for 35+ years is defines "unemployable"


----------



## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

clancrawford55 said:


> Once every few months my boss looses it, says he is going to close shop & go to work for the town or something. He will spend the whole day yelling at us & telling everyone they need to find another job. The next day he will realize that he could NEVER work for anyone else as it is always his way or the highway & he does not take orders well @ all. After running the business for 35+ years is defines "unemployable"


For your boss to be that miserable must be a living hell.


----------



## Tower (Nov 3, 2011)

I would rather cut off my extremities with a rusty spoon than work for anyone ever again.


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

ditto on the "un-employable" remarks and ditto on the downsize option as well.

particularly in roofing, if you are, physically able, presentable, are able to meet with people personally and personably and have good diagnostic skills you can earn an excellent living with a 2 man operation.

If you have the ability to solve problems- people WILL find YOU.

6:15 this morning I have an email from a guy in Toronto( I am in Ohio) with a roof problem he wants solved-- he was referred to me buy someone else and as far as I know I don't know either of them- but they found me, LOL

Best wishes,
stephen


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

I feel your pains and worries. Finding people that want to do a decent job, and act responsibly is surprisingly difficult. Getting paid in a timely manner is getting more difficult as well. The ever constant battle of mounting paper work is difficult. But, nobody said it was going to be easy.

Don't quit, unless this feeling lasts for another nine months. I think running a business, with employees is quite an honorable thing. You are providing employment for others, you are contributing to the economy, and although many may not appreciate it, we small time operators are todays unsung heroes...Or village idiots.


----------



## Dmitry (Aug 23, 2010)

flashheatingand said:


> ..... we small time operators are todays unsung heroes...Or village idiots.


That's ridiculously funny and poetic in the same time!


----------



## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I've decided to say **** it and get a damn job where I can just show up and work. Tired of dealing with employees, insurance companies, other people making a liar out of me, being stabbed in the back, working for my guys, being responsible for their **** ups,etc, etc, etc.
> 
> I have a few commitments to take care of first, but I feel some relief already.


Why not do something else that's seasonal like plow during the winter? It's slow for roofing during the winter and you could be a one man show. 

Hey, I just saw your location..... your in town here. Dude where are you going to find a job, male nurse?


----------



## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

Paulie said:


> Why not do something else that's seasonal like plow during the winter? It's slow for roofing during the winter and you could be a one man show.


I've been there . . . done that . . . have numerous t-shirts . . .:clap:

Started as an equipment operator plowing in '78, survived the infamous Blizzard, purchased the plowing business in '90. That business, established in '64, had a solid, loyal customer base.

Pulled a builder license spring '91 . . . ramped up with crew, wc ins, liability ins, and overhead and moved the roofing to a full time seasonal operation. 

Dumped the plowing business in '04. I thought our residential roofing and the snowplowing business dovetailed nicely . . until I figured out that focus was needed on one or the other. I don't miss the third shift plowing schedule and sleepless nights checking for predicted snow. I do miss the cash flow of prepaid seasonal snowplowing accounts in the snow months, but really enjoy pushing the roofing into December and starting again in mid March. It was breezy and a little cold today, but sun was out and no snow. 

Repairs have been a HUGE part of us remaining afloat financially the past couple of years. I think this year will prove to be our best since about 2001 or so. We quoted work at the "right price", made good margins and good production and worked just about every day. Have jobs booked into next spring, and that hasn't been the case for the past few years.

Our crew today is my oldest son (a fourth generation roofer) and myself. My dad always told me the most efficient we would ever be is the owner and one employee. We pick up college help in the summer . . . train them well, pay them well, treat them well and they usually hang around two or three seasons. We are careful to pull them in for help only when needed. 

If being a small business owner was easy, everyone would be doing it. And residential roofing adds several orders of difficulty to the basics of business. If you are not passionate about this industry, it may be time to pack it in. 

Just my .002


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Well, I started a job today. Best damn day of work I've had in quite some time. Just showed up at 10, jumped on putting on some underlayments, tore off about a square, finished prepping, went to lunch, came back and just shingled. 

It was so nice that my phone wasn't ringing all day with who, what, when, where, why, and how. I just got to do my thing and so far they are quite pleased. I happen to know one of the guys so that's always a plus, well, maybe not always. Anyway, if today is the average day, then I'm a pretty happy camper.


----------



## KnottyWoodwork (May 23, 2010)

:thumbsup: right on man, glad the grass is greener for ya.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

SOme of you guys just need to learn how to relax a little bit. 

I am never under the gun to get something done, I do what I do at my own pace and usually don't get stressed out over anything.

If I do get a little stressed, I just go take some of my all natural medication.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

apkole said:


> Repairs have been a HUGE part of us remaining afloat financially the past couple of years. I think this year will prove to be our best since about 2001 or so. We quoted work at the "right price", made good margins and good production and worked just about every day. Have jobs booked into next spring, and that hasn't been the case for the past few years.
> 
> Our crew today is my oldest son (a fourth generation roofer) and myself. My dad always told me the most efficient we would ever be is the owner and one employee. We pick up college help in the summer . . . train them well, pay them well, treat them well and they usually hang around two or three seasons. We are careful to pull them in for help only when needed.
> 
> ...


I am very pasionate about this industry. 

For me it'd be hard to sub jobs from contractors boasting a 2 man roofing crew. Also, if I was liscensed, I too could quote the right price, however I'm not liscensed and stick, or stuck I should say, to the role of sub-contractor.

There is no money in labor only, especially when someone else has their hand in the labor pot before I get to it. If there was, why bother handling materials. 

Just my $.02


----------



## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Well, I started a job today. Best damn day of work I've had in quite some time. Just showed up at 10, jumped on putting on some underlayments, tore off about a square, finished prepping, went to lunch, came back and just shingled.
> 
> It was so nice that my phone wasn't ringing all day with who, what, when, where, why, and how. I just got to do my thing and so far they are quite pleased. I happen to know one of the guys so that's always a plus, well, maybe not always. Anyway, if today is the average day, then I'm a pretty happy camper.


Good for you!:thumbsup:


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

If the phone is ringing frequently in the middle of a job, it's beneficial to have a helper. That way at least something is getting accomplished while the blah, blah, blah goes on.


----------



## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Wow. Only as a sub?
> 
> Wait until you have to do MORE than just SHOW UP. Pay your employees by the square. Production will increase. If quality decreases, fire them.
> 
> I have thought about this a lot in the past two years but boy, it was cold and snowy today and I was glad my truck has a nice heater and that I got to spend time with my daughter.


So that employee who p'd you off when said it would be nice to sit in a truck all day was right after all? :whistling:clap::laughing:


----------



## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

ah never mind.


----------



## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

It's about 2 grand for a generals ticket (bond and one year insurance). It's a investment as are todays throw away tools.

Filing a quarterly that say no business are easy and don't require a accountant. 

I carry that in my pocket along with a 500 dollar 9mm. 

What are we talking about again.

Oh yeah who cares what others think. Stick to your plan.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> There is no money in labor only, especially when someone else has their hand in the labor pot before I get to it. If there was, why bother handling materials.
> 
> Just my $.02


I don't know about that. It depends who you work for I guess. I subbed for the first three months and that is what really got me going. I was physically working then and I was taking home a few thousand a week, labor only.



Metro M & L said:


> So that employee who p'd you off when said it would be nice to sit in a truck all day was right after all? :whistling:clap::laughing:


It has its moments


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I don't know about that. It depends who you work for I guess. I subbed for the first three months and that is what really got me going. I was physically working then and I was taking home a few thousand a week, labor only.
> 
> It has its moments


I'm not saying I didn't have some good weeks, hell, I cleared 4,872.00 one week off 2 jobs. Cleared a couple grand several weeks. However, Grand Rapids is a little "big town" and straight up cut throat across the board, and my wfe spends it just as fast as I make it and the smallest fup can deplete the profit quicker than ****. Best thing to be here is in the medical field, lots of high tech hospitals. 

If I had a liscense, things would be different. But early 20's me fubard my credit so I can't get one,the test I can pass. 

If I can earn a decent wage, get some formal PM expierence, I can work my credit out over the next years, I can go about this whole liscense thing and have actual profit margins and such down the road. 

This past year was really rough, after splitting with my partner, I spent at leats 25k on new equipment, truck, and trailer. I'd probably do much better next year, but I need a good long break from the constant go go go.


----------



## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Merchant Bonds don't bond in your area? That would be the actual company your agent would get them from. Pretty much a no credit check bond. They just ask that you have 3 years in the trade you are licensing. 

Even with a score under a 700 I have been quoted under a grand for a 12k bond.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

JustaFramer said:


> Merchant Bonds don't bond in your area? That would be the actual company your agent would get them from. Pretty much a no credit check bond. They just ask that you have 3 years in the trade you are licensing.
> 
> Even with a score under a 700 I have been quoted under a grand for a 12k bond.


Not sure, never heard of that. Itwas explained to me that the credit history is my "personal reference".


----------



## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Not sure, never heard of that. Itwas explained to me that the credit history is my "personal reference".



I am just saying that there is bonding companies that operate that don't require credit. Merchant Bonds being one of them. You have to ask your agent. Yes the best price on a bond is based on your credit. 

There is even the bank account option. It's essentially a CD that the state can take if you get your bond pulled. Depending on the state the account can be interest bearing. So it isn't a losing proposition.


----------



## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I am very pasionate about this industry.
> 
> For me it'd be hard to sub jobs from contractors boasting a 2 man roofing crew. Also, if I was liscensed, I too could quote the right price, however I'm not liscensed and stick, or stuck I should say, to the role of sub-contractor.
> 
> ...


I thought to work as a builder In Michigan you had to be lic. Any job with labor and material over $600 you had to be lic and insured. Did our new guv. drop that requirement?


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Gary H said:


> I thought to work as a builder In Michigan you had to be lic. Any job with labor and material over $600 you had to be lic and insured. Did our new guv. drop that requirement?


No they did not. That would be why I was a full time SUB-CONTRACTOR, the odd friends/ relatives roof, sure my job. 

But any walkups on a subbed job goes to the contractor. Never ever bit the hand that fed me. 
The odd refferal would go to a couple of select contractors, my #1 and #2 contractors if they want multiple bids. 

Got a few jobs that way, tell them it's in their best interest to go the liscensed guy route and why and they can simply request that I do the work. 

I am now the elusive "hourly sub contrctor".


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Wow that's strange. Those companies can legally subcontract to non licensed companies?

We only need a license to pull a permit but I thought Michigan was more strict.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Wow that's strange. Those companies can legally subcontract to non licensed companies?
> 
> We only need a license to pull a permit but I thought Michigan was more strict.


To be a sub in Michigan you need general consruction liability and comp if you want a crew.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

*update....*

well, f this s!

The company I have been working for for a couple weeks, can kiss my a. This jackwad is a retard. So I came up with a couple jobs for us, a 24sq ranch tear off and a 42sq prevailing wage new construction, 2 sides, 4/12, up and over, only 1 stink pipe. Well we did the tear off last Thursday and Friday, and were supposed to start the prevailing wage job this morning. It is 2 hours away.

I called him yesterday afternoon, at 4:00, and left a message telling him it was supposed to snow all morning then have rain all afternoon. Well he finally decides to give me a call at about 9:30pm saying we're going (not him) to Cadillac. Well I meet up with the guys and start fueling up my truck, he said i should ride on the cords, ropes, and hoses in the back of the work van on the plywood so I can save some money. Said he got a travel allowance on the job but alredy filled up the van and will not throw me any gas money. so I drive the 2 hours to find it's snowing faster than we can clear the deck. The foreman and I came to the conclusion that this was pointless, so I said call the boss and tell him we're gonna need that hotel room to which I was informed that if we stayed we'd be paying the hotel bill.

fing really, I landed that job as well as the previous one and I can't get any fing gas in my truck, and we would have to cover a hotel if we stayed.
F this, I'm renewing the Insurance next week and sending my wife to builders liscense classes.

I can't believe this clown, I still need to call and see what he's willing to do, but I doubt it will change anything. I'm almost sure of it. I guess I'm unemployable after all.

Thought some of you guys might get a kick out of this development.


Some people really have nerve. I'm so pissed that if i had any gas or cash left, I'd tell him what i thought in person. How does he expect me to lose money on a gig I landed for him?


----------



## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.

Some business owners can be really difficult. But I know first hand that it's a slippery slope: you take care of your guys in regard to fuel (for example), next thing you know he's filling up his and his wife's cars. I'm not speaking of your particular situation, your boss may just be an arzhole. I'm just saying in general, that I've talked to several owners who tried to treat their employees well, only to be taken advantage of.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

jb4211 said:


> I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.
> 
> Some business owners can be really difficult. But I know first hand that it's a slippery slope: you take care of your guys in regard to fuel (for example), next thing you know he's filling up his and his wife's cars. I'm not speaking of your particular situation, your boss may just be an arzhole. I'm just saying in general, that I've talked to several owners who tried to treat their employees well, only to be taken advantage of.


Thanks JB, I'll chalk up a couple more expierence points. I am unemployable and need to fight the tough times, no matter how daunting they seem. Time to take this game to the next level. :boxing:, not sure if I should torch this bridge or keep it open for some sub work down the road.


----------



## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Thanks JB, I'll chalk up a couple more expierence points. I am unemployable and need to fight the tough times, no matter how daunting they seem. Time to take this game to the next level. :boxing:, not sure if I should torch this bridge or keep it open for some sub work down the road.



PLEASE....Don't burn any bridges! Take my advice, you never know. Do whatever you can to make him think he's the best and you're grateful. :thumbup:


----------



## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

You need to get your relationship straight with the guy. Are you a sub or an employee? What about the rest of the guys?

If you are a sub, YOU are the boss of what your company does. Pay for your own [email protected] gas and get a referral fee. A GC is not your boss and isn't responsible for you.

I hope you get licensed and quit getting taken advantage of. Once you get going treat your guys fair and legal. Ask Bamm. He is the only guy I know of who actually has legal employees in the exteriors field.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MJW said:


> You need to get your relationship straight with the guy. Are you a sub or an employee? What about the rest of the guys?
> 
> If you are a sub, YOU are the boss of what your company does. Pay for your own [email protected] gas and get a referral fee. A GC is not your boss and isn't responsible for you.
> 
> I hope you get licensed and quit getting taken advantage of. Once you get going treat your guys fair and legal. Ask Bamm. He is the only guy I know of who actually has legal employees in the exteriors field.


For this guy...we are all hourly subs. This a** hole puts gas in the van for the 2 he bit***s about the most and I have to pay for mine, or ride in the back of a cold van with no seat.:no:
I don't think so. 

On the upside, I have been remotivated in a single day and have made a couple GC's excited about my return. 

I'm anxiousley awaiting Bamms reply. 

I have always treated my crew well, tried to be the boss I wanted. Not always possible but overall I am more than fair.


----------



## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

That's BS!

That guy needs his a$$ kicked if you ask me.

The way he does business he needs to hire some illegals. After reading this....imagine how illegals are treated in this business......

I think everyone wishes they had some "hourly subs" they could send to a job and they do the entire thing for them.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MJW said:


> That's BS!
> 
> That guy needs his a$$ kicked if you ask me.
> 
> ...


Where do I drop a dime on the whole prevailing wage thing not being honored?


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MJW said:


> That's BS!
> 
> That guy needs his a$$ kicked if you ask me.


Yes he does.



> The way he does business he needs to hire some illegals. After reading this....imagine how illegals are treated in this business.


They get the floor in the back of the frozen van.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> For this guy...we are all hourly subs. This a** hole puts gas in the van for the 2 he bit***s about the most and I have to pay for mine, or ride in the back of a cold van with no seat.:no:
> I don't think so.
> 
> On the upside, I have been remotivated in a single day and have made a couple GC's excited about my return.
> ...


I am really confused. You are ALL hourly subs? I assume that means he is paying you somewhere around 45-60 an hour if he isn't paying you by the square (which he should be). Why is he paying for anybodies gas? That doesn't make sense. How does that look to an accountant when he is paying for a subcontractors gas?

If you are an hourly sub, and he is paying your gas, then you are an employee and he needs to pay workers compensation and insurance on you. If he tells you when to start, he needs to pay workers compensation and insurance on you.

My subcontractors aren't paid hourly, they are paid what they bid on the job. I don't think any GC would like to pay my hourly rate of $70 a guy.

This is another situation of why the roofing industry is the lowest on the totem pole. The "GC" gets to cut out workers compensation and insurance costs. The "hourly subs" don't have to pay workers compensation on themselves and they don't realize they have to pay insurance on what income they have for the year.

This is typical of what I bid against daily, cheats, hacks, low life "owners", drug addicts, etc.


----------



## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Where do I drop a dime on the whole prevailing wage thing not being honored?


This is where it depends on whether you are a sub or an employee. Subs don't have to be paid prevailing wage, but the subs employees do. This is also where a system like you guys have is just a mess waiting to happen. In Oregon, you can't be a sub without being licensed, bonded, insured AND registered with the state. That protects everybody.

Edit: And what he said^^^^^^^^^


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I don't know about Michigan, but here there's no such thing as hourly subs. Here you would be an employee.

I would finish up the pw job if you can because it's paying good money. Then I'd go back on my own. 

Can you work alone? Maybe you know one good guy you could work together with if the work needs two men.

The only real security is to be self employed. You can do it :thumbsup:


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

katoman said:


> I don't know about Michigan, but here there's no such thing as hourly subs. Here you would be an employee.
> 
> I would finish up the pw job if you can because it's paying good money. Then I'd go back on my own.
> 
> ...


That just it, we're not getting anything over our regular rate, and it will take about 5 or 6 hours to do, so after 140 in gas, I'm still gonna come out negative. If I can bring myself to milk it, wich I don't know how to do, I may break even.


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

A&E Exteriors said:


> That just it, we're not getting anything over our regular rate, and it will take about 5 or 6 hours to do, so after 140 in gas, I'm still gonna come out negative.


 
What? It's only a 6 hr. job? I'd be GONE.

Time to go back on your own. Being pissed off is a great motivator. Use it to get back in the game.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> That just it, we're not getting anything over our regular rate, and it will take about 5 or 6 hours to do, so after 140 in gas, I'm still gonna come out negative.


As a sub you should be charging a trip charge for the job. YOUR GAS MONEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN COVERED in the bid. But wait, you're just an hourly employee who has decided to pay taxes on himself.

This is a mess. You should be making around $700 a day for the job for all your expenses and your wage.

Edit : I'm irritated!


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm about to call him and tell him if he wants me to go back out there, he'll need to drive the 45 minutes to my house from his and fill my tank.


----------



## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

VinylHanger said:


> This is where it depends on whether you are a sub or an employee. Subs don't have to be paid prevailing wage, but the subs employees do. This is also where a system like you guys have is just a mess waiting to happen. * In Oregon, you can't be a sub without being licensed, bonded, insured AND registered with the state.* That protects everybody.
> 
> Edit: And what he said^^^^^^^^^


It's the same here for roofers and siders. Does anyone enforce this or follow these rules? Not many at all. Most use the sub sub game to avoid paying taxes, SS, insurance, WC, etc. 

Most days I feel like the only fool doing things legitimately. Just look at what is outlined in this thread alone.


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

A&E, just went back and read your origional post. If you go back on your own keep it simple. You and one man. That way it's a lot easier to control.

How aggravating it is depends somewhat on your perspective. I have days where I'd like to pack it in, but the alternatives are worse. I know it will pass, and just keep on truckin'.

You already know there's a ton of info here to help you keep the argo to a minimum and sort sh!t out for you.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

katoman said:


> How aggravating it is depends somewhat on your perspective. I have days where I'd like to pack it in, but the alternatives are worse. I know it will pass, and just keep on truckin'.


This is the lesson I learned from the last month and a half.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I'm about to call him and tell him if he wants me to go back out there, he'll need to drive the 45 minutes to my house from his and fill my tank.


Well, 3 hours now and no reply... took JB's advice to not torch the bridge and left a detailed, polite, and professional message.

Basicly I said that I had a bad taste in my mouth about how this job went down. 

That I tried to give him a headsup on the weather situation at a decent hour yesterday afternoon then did not hear back from him until after 9pm with my warning disregarded. 

That I got him the last 2 jobs and I was dissatisfied that the 2 guys he bit**** about constantly get a free ride and I don't unless I sit in the back of the frozen van.

That I wasn't going to be able to finish this job unless he comes and fills me up. 

That I'd still be happy to help him out here and there, but to give me a call and we could discuss it. 

I **** you not the guy just called me, I'll post another update in. Few moments.....


----------



## Real World (Jan 28, 2012)

Warren said:


> Some people are just not cut out for it. Good luck with the new grind. We all think about it from time to time, but for most of us here, *we could not function as a regular employee.*


*True, most of us (incl me) are misfits.* We do not do well being an employee.

Many contractors have ADD and are very creative. Working for the man slowly kills us.

Is work that bad in Grand Rapids (my old hometown years ago) or just not worth dealing with the daily grind dealing with all the business BS?

Real World


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Real World said:


> *True, most of us (incl me) are misfits.* We do not do well being an employee.
> 
> Many contractors have ADD and are very creative. Working for the man slowly kills us.
> 
> ...


i have ADHD.:thumbup:

GR is quite slow compared to when i moved here in 97. It's biggest problem is that it's so cutthroat, I read an article the other day that stated labor rates are 21% below national average overall.

It's across the board, a friend of mine owns a window cleaning company. He had a strip mall with a large cellular retailer and a coffee shop in that payed well on regular maintence (bi weekly service), well over the years about 5 little stores went as well for $8 each he'd make $40 in about 10 minutes, a competitor went to $4 on the little jobs (only 2 took the guy up on it but you get the idea).

Construction laborers start at about 8-9 bucks an hour,the factories don't even pay like they used to, all temp services now.


----------



## Real World (Jan 28, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> i have ADHD.:thumbup:
> 
> GR is quite slow compared to when i moved here in 97. It's biggest problem is that it's so cutthroat, I read an article the other day that stated labor rates are 21% below national average overall.
> 
> ...


I love West Michigan, beautiful shoreline, state parks, and very nice people.

But the construction industry sucks. Cut throat Mutha *******

I just read about a builder in West MI who had been around for about 70 years that went belly up last month. Good family, honest, built great houses, and tons of respect. Repeat homeowners would upgrade to new houses with him over and over.

I said to myself "if this guy went under no one can make it."

*I know your biggest problem is Michigan itself.* I'm very good at marketing and getting jobs, but put me in your neighborhood and I'll probably cry myself to sleep every night.

I was in Grand Rapids one month ago, I couldn't believe how many businesses were closed, vacant stores on 28th street, etc... like a friggin nuclear bomb hit.

Have you considered moving?

Real World


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

*Post phone call.....*

Well, I'm glad I kept a cool head.

I am going to finish this job, and at least stick through the winter. 

The situation has however resparked my drive and am still going to have to get the wife in the liscense courses and get that taken care of, and really do what it takes to get to the next level. By sticking around awhile, I can take my time and get all the details put together and not have to throw something together next monday like I initially had to start out.

We both agreed this was a lack of proper communication all across the board, him, me, and the other guys. There was no time given to coordinate who was driving what, I wasn't leaving my truck, with ladders and a brake at the car pool lot, and most surley not to ride in the back of the frozen van.

He is gonna split my gas cost with me which I'm cool with.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Real World said:


> I love West Michigan, beautiful shoreline, state parks, and very nice people.
> 
> But the construction industry sucks. Cut throat Mutha *******
> 
> ...


I have considered moving, I met my wife in Indianapolis and she'd love to move back. I'd like to go there as well, just can't swing it currently and we have 2 boys one is slightly special needs who it will be a major adjustment to change school systems from one who knows him so well.

I did my brother and sister in laws roof on the north side of indy this spring and the roofing there is booming, the residential is ripe for the picking. 20 year old 3 tab roofs as far as the eye can see.:clap:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Glad to see you back


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

jawtrs said:


> Glad to see you back


why thank you:thumbsup:


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

So then you are an employee and not a sub?


----------



## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> So then you are an employee and not a sub?


Just a hunch, but I would guess there isn't a single employee in the entire operation here.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MJW said:


> Just a hunch, but I would guess there isn't a single employee in the entire operation here.


Not 1. But I need all the work I can get at the moment and I am not going to forget this guys true ways which he showed me on this job.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Not 1. But I need all the work I can get at the moment and I am not going to forget this guys true ways which he showed me on this job.


I don't know how he could afford paying "subs" hourly. It has to cost him at least $1600 a day in labor and with that he has no idea how much work is getting done.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I don't know how he could afford paying "subs" hourly. It has to cost him at least $1600 a day in labor and with that he has no idea how much work is getting done.


C'mon Bam, you know how he does it. He pays good "employee" rates and no tax and comp. He pays hourly to keep quality up, he is a stickler in the quality dept.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> C'mon Bam, you know how he does it. He pays good "employee" rates and no tax and comp. He pays hourly to keep quality up, he is a stickler in the quality dept.


With the way he runs his business, I find it hard to believe that he is a "stickler" in the quality department.

Even worse than him are the guys who allow him to treat them like this. No way in heck are you running anything close to a legitimate company yourself if you can survive on hourly wages as a sub.

I would assume good hourly wages for a sub in Michigan is what I pay my employees an hour. As I said, if you aren't making over $50 an hour, then you would be A LOT better off to document everything so when he sends you a 1099 for next year, you can tell the Gov't that you were an employee so you don't get raked over the coals.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> With the way he runs his business, I find it hard to believe that he is a "stickler" in the quality department.
> 
> Even worse than him are the guys who allow him to treat them like this. No way in heck are you running anything close to a legitimate company yourself if you can survive on hourly wages as a sub.
> 
> I would assume good hourly wages for a sub in Michigan is what I pay my employees an hour. As I said, if you aren't making over $50 an hour, then you would be A LOT better off to document everything so when he sends you a 1099 for next year, you can tell the Gov't that you were an employee so you don't get raked over the coals.


I'm not sticking up for how he runs his buisness, but I went to him for a job because of his reputaton for quality in town. He is a fussy one. I was actually shocked that his emploees are not on the books when he told me. 

No, I'm not getting close to 50hr, But what I'm getting is better than no dollars or what's availble elsewhere. And I've learned how to play this game in this town over the years


----------



## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Wait till he gets thrown in the slammer and starts naming names.

"Your telling me your company did 100 reroofs last year?"

"yep"

"all by yourself?"

"well no..."

"Who did the work on these 100 houses?"

"subs"

"how did you pay them?"

"money I earned from the jobs I did"

"but you didn't do them"......"did you send out 1099's?"

"no"

"You owe the taxes on the money made on these 100 houses"

"well, I don't have the money...I paid it to my guys" No taxes.

"your a dumba$$"




I still don't know how these guys get away with claiming so much income with no employees and no legal subs. There has to be a paper trail somewhere.


----------



## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

MJW,

Actually, you may not be too far off. I've been running across information on the 'net and in trade publications for awhile now that the fed & state wage and hour people are implementing an enforcement program targeting the "sub game" in construction trades. 

Every one who works for me in our residential roofing business is a W2 employee. I've watched this sub thing over the years, as well as the "cash-under-the-table" operations. It can be frustrating, but I've learned to focus on what I do. 

State of Michigan basically says that he who writes and gets paid for the contract must be licensed. Beyond that, the installer can be anyone the contractor chooses to use . . . might be another fully licensed and insured contractor . . . might be a guy who shows up on a bicycle with a nail apron and hammer. It's all legit as far as the state is concerned, so long as there is a builder license to hang the responsibility on.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

apkole said:


> MJW,
> 
> Actually, you may not be too far off. I've been running across information on the 'net and in trade publications for awhile now that the fed & state wage and hour people are implementing an enforcement program targeting the "sub game" in construction trades.
> 
> ...


Are you hiring? :whistling:


----------



## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

Not at the moment, but was out looking at work today. With the sunny and 50 degree temps and a relatively dry forecast, sure got to thinking I should just suck it up and break loose one of my backlogged jobs. 

But at 58, I've turned into a fair weather roofer. So long as I have one piece of wood for the fireplace, a plate of macaroni and cheese and a bed to lie on . . . I'm good.:clap:


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

apkole said:


> Not at the moment, but was out looking at work today. With the sunny and 50 degree temps and a relatively dry forecast, sure got to thinking I should just suck it up and break loose one of my backlogged jobs.
> 
> But at 58, I've turned into a fair weather roofer. So long as I have one piece of wood for the fireplace, a plate of macaroni and cheese and a bed to lie on . . . I'm good.:clap:


Thanks anyway, :thumbsup:


----------



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Maybe hang out in Indy at your brothers and do some roofing there if it's booming. Just a thought.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

You guys are gonna love this.... this douche texts me at 9:30 last night to tell me he doesn't need my help on this job and will let me know if he needs me on the next one. 
I replied that I thought we worked it out and he said he decided to go a diferent direction. 

Whatever, this will suck for a couple days but something tells me this is going to save me a huge migrane down the road.

Who wants to work for someone who doesn't even have the balls to call me to fire me


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> Maybe hang out in Indy at your brothers and do some roofing there if it's booming. Just a thought.


Has crossed my mind.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MJW said:


> "but you didn't do them"......"did you send out 1099's?"
> 
> "no"
> 
> ...


he requires general liability, subcontractor agreement forms, w9's, and 1099's


----------

