# The Great Unknown



## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Doing some wiring in the turret today and ran into something I'm not familar with.

The electrician knows what he's doing, he dam near wired the whole place.

What I found I put on a link. Somebody please tell me if he had something in mind I'm not aware of. Because it doesn't look to good to me.

Thanks fellas,:Thumbs: 
Bob


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

What does the switch go to? I can't make out the other color to 'unknown'.
If these are outside or security lights it looks like the neutral may have been used to go to a light or motion sensor.


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Unknown is just a 14-2 wire, blacks on the right.

I thought about another light, but it doesn't mesh, the three way circuit begins at the three way, with power in at the bottom of the box...

I just don't know. I went ahead and changed it and turned the 14-2 into an extra light fixture, I was just wondering what he had in mind......if anything.:cheesygri 

Bob


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Bob, I was just trying to figure out why someone would route a neutral somewhere and return it.
If just a neutral was needed somewhere, why not just run a single wire?
The fact that there are two wires inclines me to believe that they go to some sort of switch.
Electricity is stupid and it doesn't matter whether you switch the load or neutral. In a simple system, it will work either way.
A switch on the neutral would control that entire circuit and override the two switches connected to it which is what led me to a motion or light sensor although they should have been installed on the line side ahead of the switch.
Maybe the guy had a rough night. I'd still be interested on where that wire run goes.


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Ah ha!.....shut down the whole three way circuit by steeling it's neutral.

That would make perfect sence if it was the christmas lighting switches, but it was the ceiling light switches, The christmas light switches are on another wall not far away. Tuff to make that mistake.......unless the 60s came back on him.

Bob


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Is it a 4-way switched circuit? Can you find three switches that control the fixture? I did my lights in the basement on a 4-way (switch at door and 2 sides of the room) but can't remember what the schematic looks like.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Did you look for the Hefner switch? Low on the wall and next to the bed. LOL
Most likely a dimmer.


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

the white going to the black unknown is most likly a sw leg from three way . if he had to in stall another light some where he would need to pick up the swl and a neutral from that 4sq im assume it mc or romex? 12/2 and 12/3.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

marx, the tap is from the neutral and returns to the neutral, if it's not controlling something or just providing a neutral what else could it be doing?


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> marx, the tap is from the neutral and returns to the neutral, if it's not controlling something or just providing a neutral what else could it be doing?


the white on the left with b and r is a sw/leg from the other 3 wayit goes into the box ties into a black unknown making blk unk a sw leg they picked up the neutral to coplete the circut. unknown w is a neutrl .

unknow w nb goes to a working fixure or was cut out and abandond. put your tester on unknown black(swleg) and turn the swich on and off. it should cut power. put a amprobe around the unknown black and see what you get when everything is on. also the white unkown is the only neutral feeding the lights i assume because im looking at the power side of the three ways.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

roger on the balance of the switching. The neutral still goes to parts unknown and returns from there. That circuit must be currently closed or nothing would work.
This is all theoretical anyway as Bob has bypassed it. I'd still like to know what was going on there.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

If that is a 3-way where is the other traveller that should be attached to the switch?


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> If that is a 3-way where is the other traveller that should be attached to the switch?


 b and r are the travelers you can just see it cut off by the picture the white coming down with them is imo a sw/leg they passed back from the other three way and out with the neutral


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

hey mike are u a construction super?


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

My boy came in the other day said he was at a nearby job site and learned to hang a door. I said Oh yea, tell me?

He said you set it up, bump it a crouch hair left, then a crouch hair right, then you hang the mother &%$#@#.

I said "Boy fetch me a switch!" He said "Screw you Dad, thats the electricians job."


Bob


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Marx, look at the diagram. Neutral enters the box, takes off on a tangent and re-enters the box.


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> Marx, look at the diagram. Neutral enters the box, takes off on a tangent and re-enters the box.


 no not a neutral- the neutral enters the box at the botom w/power. goes right top and out. what you see comming back on the left is a WHITE wire coming in with the trav b/r -the white wire is not a neutral it is a switch leg- the only reason to use 12/3 b/r/w/ in this configuration is to backfeed an existing swich leg in the box -- the 12/2 on the right. 



if you had a bottom fed switch box and fed to a light in the ceiling or most likely recpt down below, you would have 12/ 2 coming in the bottom 12/2 out the top -(blk swich leg) (white neutral) for a single pole config. now if you were to want to add 3 ways you could use the supply from the bottom b/w( the feed to 3 way ) , run 12/ 3 in top (black and red for travlers)and backfeed the existing 12/2 with your extra wire (the white) and tie that to your old sw leg ( the black unknown)which most likely went in a differnt direction than up say.... a split recptical that you would never know was split and switched on and off with your new 3way because you never moved the couch and chaged the plug to the other hole. hence the neutral dosent cirle in and out.

why do i think it is a split recpt because you simply would have changed the wire in the ceiling when you ran your travlers and you woud have most likely notice it if it ran the wole recptical and would have seen it.


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## jbfan (Apr 1, 2004)

The power comes in on the black wire from the bottom. it coonnects to the 3 way switch on the common screw. The black and red wire in the 3 wire are the travelers. the white wire inside the 3 wire bundle is attached to the common screw on the other 3 way switch. this becomes the switch leg. the white wire attached with the black hot coming into the bottom of the switch box is the netural. The white wire inside the 3 wire bundle is the switch leg, attached to the black wire going to the light fixture.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

What does any of this have to do with the problem? Yes, the 3 way is wired properly. The question is why does the neutral embark on such a trevail?


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> Bob, I was just trying to figure out why someone would route a neutral somewhere and return it.
> If just a neutral was needed somewhere, why not just run a single wire?
> The fact that there are two wires inclines me to believe that they go to some sort of switch.
> Electricity is stupid and it doesn't matter whether you switch the load or neutral. In a simple system, it will work either way.
> ...


there is only oneneutral in the box it comes in with the power and out with the 'unknown white. it dosent come back in with the red and blue as you assumed.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

marx, look again at the diagram. The line side enters the box and the neutral is shunted off to God knows where and then returns through the B wire which connects back to the W on the load side. The other end of that wire has to be connected together or else nothing else would work.


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> marx, look again at the diagram. The line side enters the box and the neutral is shunted off to God knows where and then returns through the B wire which connects back to the W on the load side. The other end of that wire has to be connected together or else nothing else would work.


 HI  no this is where you go wrong.assumimg the unknown tie together the neutral comes back , i belive the neutral never comes back down it just terminates at the last light. i wish i could draw the rest of it out to show you what i mean  get this guy back to the thread) :cheesygri :evil: i just saw your resume, very impressive............but you still wrong. :cheesygri


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

fluid dynamics thats a nice touch on the old personal file , thats not like bartending is it. if it is i will be very very disappointed. if i break out the quantum mechanics and string theories, and you come up something about funnels and harvey wall bangers i will ask you to delete that very cool FLUID DYNAMICS. :cheesygri


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

marx, I am only going by what was presented. Glass has been here for a while and verified that the diagram was correct. I will accept his word on that.
I am looking forward to your explanation of the wayward neutral.
As to my resume, I am not allowed to post it all. I can tell you that I worked for Lockheed/Martin Marrietta on some aquatic projects and that some holes in my resume include the development of the recievers for multi barreled firing systems.


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## jbfan (Apr 1, 2004)

That is not a wayward neutral. The white wire that ia attached to the black wire shloud have been remarked to a black. This is a common way to wire a 3 way switch. If he opens the other 3 way switch he will find just the 3 wirs hooked up. black and red are travelers, and the white is connected to the common. As far as finding out what this thing turns on or off, we can only guess or assume it is a light or an outlet somewhere in the room. Not knowing how thw room is set up, it is only a guess.


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> marx, I am only going by what was presented. Glass has been here for a while and verified that the diagram was correct. I will accept his word on that.
> I am looking forward to your explanation of the wayward neutral.
> As to my resume, I am not allowed to post it all. I can tell you that I worked for Lockheed/Martin Marrietta on some aquatic projects and that some holes in my resume include the development of the recievers for multi barreled firing systems.


im going by the profile, thats outstanding. i suffered accute profile envy when i saw it. i hate it when i meet people that much smarter than me! i got a d in calculus and i was trying. :cheesygri you are number 9876 , ive started counting all the people smarter than me.. 9876- yep , thats just today


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

im not saying that the drawing is wrong, im just telling you whats going on outside the box. and i dont belive he ever said that the wire returning was a neutal he just drew its color. the only one he gave value for was power,right? 
i have enjoyed talking about it with you though. and as soon as i figure out how to draw this without a scanner its there!


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

marxlaws said:


> im not saying that the drawing is wrong, im just telling you whats going on outside the box. and i dont belive he ever said that the wire returning was a neutal he just drew its color. the only one he gave value for was power,right?
> i have enjoyed talking about it with you though. and as soon as i figure out how to draw this without a scanner its there!


 im trying.


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## marxlaws (Jan 11, 2005)

marxlaws said:


> im trying.


still trying


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