# Customer Delays Job AGAIN!



## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

I picked up a great deck job about two months ago. The customer called and asked me to hold off on the start date for a week, I said OK.

A water line had to be moved out of the way and she knew about it in advance but her plumber bailed so I referred one that I know after the job had to stop at that point. The plumber came out to fix it and we were on our way again. (delayed by three weeks)

Two weeks later, I get a message on my cell phone telling me (on a Saturday) that we can't work on the job site the following week because her brother is using the house on the lake for his honey moon. On Wednesday she say's we can go back to work even though her brother is still there so, I did.

The very next week end (on a Sunday) she left another message on my cell phone telling me I can't work for the next few days because she has rented to another couple that wants piece and quite. Unfortunately, I got the message on Monday morning and the guys were already there. I called them and told them to pull everything out and go to another job!

My last e mail to her a few days ago told her that we have about three or four days left to finish up and wanted to verify that she wasn't going to tell us not to be there with little notice again. Her response was that we couldn't work the next week either!!! WTF, are you kidding me?!

The deck isn't complete, some of the decking isn't down, the wrap around steps are only half done, and I just dropped about 2k worth of Cedar on the job site. If that doesn't get nailed down it's gonna be junk soon.

So what the hell do I do now; this lady it a nut case! I just want to finish and move on but she won't give me the time to do it. Should I just do the work anyway, before someone gets hurt on the damn thing? I've got liabilities hanging out all over the place!


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

Sounds like you need to write a detailed letter explaining all the issues with the delays and how it affects the job and send it registered.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

She's actually pissed at me because it's taken two months now!:blink:

It's a huge project and she's killed about 4-5 weeks on me. What does she expect when she keeps telling me not to work with short notice (like 12 hours notice over the weekend)


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

The only way to rectify this situation is to kowtow to her ego. Let her know that she is in charge.

Sucks, I know. But that is who she is.

Be sure you have a detailed record of the delays and the reasons. You will probably need to present it in the future.


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## excellencee (Feb 1, 2007)

I think when you get back to the job you and the guys need to work sunup to sundown. It's time to get done and gone before she stops you again. Is it possible that she is stalling because of a financial issue? Maybe she is stalling to get a few more rentals in so she can pay you and then complaining about you not being done yet to try for a discount. Just a thought.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

I've got all her emails and still have her messages on my cell phone.

Here's her last email:

Hi Jason
I can't see anytime upcoming, during the week, for hammering type work as I have had things planned (people coming and going) that require peace and quiet at the lake... that's the nature of the work I do. I'm in a quandary as to what to do now because I never expected the work to go on this long, 2 months now. It's very embarassing for me too, I was so hoping that the work could have been completed during the three sunny days of this past week.
Let's talk after the holiday as to how best to proceed now that there are ongoing previously scheduled events at this location.
Hope you have a nice holiday,

My response:

 
I'm really concerned about safety and you having people on an unfinished deck.

If I had more than 12 hours notice the last two weeks about not being able to work this could have been scheduled better but, that was in your control.

We have about three days of work to do there and all of the materials are on site. If they don’t get nailed down to something they could warp and be unusable in little time.

I will send you an invoice for all materials delivered and work done to this point. If we can't work on the house next week, you may have to find some other contractor to complete the project. I can't take the liability of having materials go bad due to your delays.

The amount due will be half of the final payment (about 2k). If you would like, I'll also send a release form for you to sign that will cancel our contract where it stands. Wish things could have worked out better, it's a project that we would be very proud of doing.

Thank you,
Jason W

Honestly, I'm thinking about going out there on Tuesday with some 2x4's and orange safety fence to close down the areas that are not complete. If she pays the bill to current completion, I'll leave the materials there. If not, they are going with me. I'll be sure to take photos before I leave.:furious:

Can you believe she's a shrink!!! Looks like she missed the self help course!


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Jason W said:


> I've got all her emails and still have her messages on my cell phone.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you believe she's a shrink!!! Looks like she missed the self help course!



Professions that seek Mental Health Counseling per Capita......

1. Police
2. Surgeons and PSYCHIATRISTS!


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

excellencee said:


> I think when you get back to the job you and the guys need to work sunup to sundown. It's time to get done and gone before she stops you again. Is it possible that she is stalling because of a financial issue? Maybe she is stalling to get a few more rentals in so she can pay you and then complaining about you not being done yet to try for a discount. Just a thought.


Thats a good possibility! She quit her job at a Hospital one week after she got the loan and was saying she needed to get going and make some money soon. I would be more than happy to work around that for her if she would just be up front about the schedule but she isn't and it's costing ME money now.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Barricade the entire work area including any access from the house for the safety of others. Take pictures. Remove every spec of materials and anything else you have on the job. Send her an invoice for the total job as if it had been completed. Add time for delays and changes in a separate column. Be prepared to drop those extra charges in negotiation. Send the invoice Certified Mail Return Receipt Requested along with a letter stating the job will be completed when ample time can be allowed but not before the invoice is paid in full. Give her seven days to respond *with total payment* or a lien will be filed on the property.

Check your state laws to be sure of what you can do.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

I like your style Bud. It really is getting to that point.

I'm thinking of calling the codes department to see what they can do as well. We don't have inspections or CO's for this stuff so I don't know if they can help. 

The deck is also part of the entry and I could really screw things up for her if she wants it that way. This is her second home and she uses it for rentals and an office for clients to come and get there brains worked on. I'm sure the town would be interested to know this residence is actually a business. I also need to contact my insurance company for there recommendations.

I think she's going to be a little surprised on Tuesday morning!:whistling


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## dirtdiggler pt2 (Aug 22, 2008)

MALCO.New.York said:


> The only way to rectify this situation is to kowtow to her ego. Let her know that she is in charge.


 
I agree with malco

It's frustrating when a client keeps causing delays and THEN complains because the job is taking so long.


Been there ... I still can't understand the mentality there. It's almost like they do it on purpose!!!

BUT, the only way to get out of it is to just finish the job.

Assess the TRUE damages here. And obtain compensation (that is a whole other thread).


Jason -

The email ... hmmm

I would NOT _threaten_ to walk off a job. *If you're going to walk ... WALK ... but do not make ultimatums to do so prior to*. There is a Point of No Return with Walking. It is a last resort thing - right up there with Nuclear War. And just like Nuclear War, nobody really wins ... you won't either, because it will put a "scar" on your reputation record (or take you out altogether)

So you want to avoid that ... naturally, you want to avoid even talking about it. This is NOT the worst client that you will encounter. Stick it out. Look at the big picture. It's just one job. Finish it so you can go do more.



You do have a right to be frustrated - especially after having materials dropped out. A REASONABLE person would probably say "Ok, Jason, you're right, I've caused you some financial harm - and I apologize for my LACK OF ORGANIZATION - can we work something out??"

but, this personality is not reasonable. If you present her a bill for any materials gone bad, I highly doubt she'll pay it. She'll say _"well why did you drop it off? You weren't gonna be able to work for another 2 weeks"_

Yeah, doesn't make sense does it? It won't. 


Make her flakiness work to your advantage. 

In contracting, the REAL sweat isn't from the work. It's the people. And there's nothing you can do to change people. They are going to be what they are going to be. You've just got to adjust, act, react to each of those personality types. That's what I've learned anyways.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Go get her Boy!!!


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Dirt, 

You're absolutely right about indicating me leaving before I do it. However; not known to you and others; she gave me some crap about three weeks ago about getting someone else to finish if we couldn't. My offer to let her do that is still fine with me as long as I get paid for our time and that is the only reason I left her with that option.

Malco,

Even though I live in Vermont, I must confess that I grew up in Syracuse, NY and it's hard to hide that NY attitude when things like this happen. I'm, for the most part, mild mannered but screw with my time and money and you'll be surprised at the reaction when you grab the tail of this lion.:laughing: I've let it slide one to many times in this case.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Jason W said:


> Malco,
> 
> Even though I live in Vermont, I must confess that I grew up in Syracuse, NY and it's hard to hide that NY attitude when things like this happen. I'm, for the most part, mild mannered but screw with my time and money and you'll be surprised at the reaction when you grab the tail of this lion.:laughing: I've let it slide one to many times in this case.


I DO understand!!!


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Just finish the job on YOUR schedule, - - no matter what she says. And then give her the final bill and deal with it from there. You're losing more money than it's worth doing it any other way, IMO.

You've already gone way above and beyond the call of duty, to your own detriment.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

When a customer changes the schedule we had originally agreed to, they then get moved to the END of the schedule.

Had you written up that option the first time around, you would have had one of two things occur.

A. She would have said that she can't wait that long and would have either allowed you to proceed, or requested to be let out of the contract so that she could find someone willing to hop on and off of the job.

or 

B. She would have signed the agreement and kept being put off to the end.

With each change of schedule, a fee for departure and remoblization would have been neccessary.



Once again, as it usually does, the lack of writing down what terms are agreeable leaves the door wide open and if their are no consequences to live up to, then their is no motivation for her to give a damn about your schedule and your profit potential.

Ed


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> When a customer changes the schedule we had originally agreed to, they then get moved to the END of the schedule.
> 
> Had you written up that option the first time around, you would have had one of two things occur.
> 
> ...


Actually, the terms ARE in the contract. Weather, and the hole nine yards.

I just can't believe I'm at the point that I'm having to point these things out to her and she still doesn't get it.:no:

I'm on the fence about which way to handle Tuesday. Either I'm going to shut it down and cause trouble or I'm going to finish up and cause trouble!:blink:

Contracting is easy!:laughing::jester:


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*So, if the terms for a delay on her part are in the contract, have you been enforcing them from the beginning.*

Unless you have a severability clause, or a clause that allows for deviations from the written clause, while still maintaining the essence of that clause to be invoked in the future without forfitting your rights to that condition, even though it wasn't followed in the instantaneous circumstances, then it is as good as not having anything written in at all.

When a customer told me I had to stop work for the time being and come back when he was more ready, I had a signed change order for 5 men to remove all of our equipment and drive time back to the sahop and whatever mid-job cleanup that was required, because we wewre not going to come back until the end of our schedule.

Ed


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Store your material properly. If you have to sticker every piece of that material and stack it under a tarp then do it. You have a track record of delays.

I would tell her that we can not work on the project any further and takes Bud's advice as to how to shut down the project, I would however stop there. 

Contact her and let her know what you're doing and why. She has her business and you have yours. Part of her agreement is to allow access to the site during normal working hours to allow the project to be built.

Call her and set up a meeting. Tell her you're shutting down the project and are taking prudent steps to protect the materials, but, since they have been delivered to the job site, as your contract states, they are her responsibility if they can not be used on the project. Let her know that until you have a clear window of opportunity that is mutually agreeable to put your crew back on the project, you will not resume work. You must have 4 full days of clear weather and dry working conditions with full access to the site, and no noise restrictions to complete the job. 

All of this must be told to her in person, not a letter. Its fine to follow up with a letter, but she must see that you are frustrated and not angry or taking any of this personally. If she suspects that then she's going to shut down on you and you won't be able to recover anything as she'll ban you from her property.

If she is not willing to find time within a 3 week window, then do what Bud says about the rest, however, visit the site every other day and do some work. This way you preserve the longest window of time for filing a lien against the property should it be required.

Quit taking this personally. The woman just sees her needs for the people she is serving as greater than yours. Once you establish the ground rules for how you will proceed, she will be more understanding of her position and actions. She just needs some subtle understanding. 

Her note clearly shows that she will not own her own failings in this matter, as her perspective will not allow her to see it. Its just all happenstance to her. That she had hopes to have this done in 3 days and its dragged on for 2 months shows how little she understands what problems she is causing. 

Don't bow up on her or she's gonna ***** slap you. Then you have to find a way to fix that problem as well.


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## dirtdiggler pt2 (Aug 22, 2008)

Double-A said:


> Quit taking this personally. The woman just sees her needs for the people she is serving as greater than yours. Once you establish the ground rules for how you will proceed, she will be more understanding of her position and actions. She just needs some subtle understanding.


 

Four words to sum up what I was trying to say earlier I guess.

Hey - and btw, don't get me wrong - I'd be PISSED too. But I've been in this situation before and it does get better ...

... once the job is over.

You're nothing but the "deck guy" to her. Your problems, existence, whatever are a mole on a mountain to her. She doesn't care that you could lose $2,000 in materials.

I'll repeat that ...

_She doesn't care_ that you could lose $2,000 in materials.



I said in a past thread or post ...

A contract not only protects you from a liability standpoint


But it protects your profitability as well.

If you have no clauses that can help you right now - you can either enter a pissing match (and still lose money, etc) ... or you can lose money and at least try to leave the job on good terms (which is always important in a small business)



Look at it this way ... at least if you didn't have a Delay Clause in your contract - ya got one now!!

good luck, it'll work out


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> *So, if the terms for a delay on her part are in the contract, have you been enforcing them from the beginning.*
> 
> Ed


No, I've been lenient because part of what I sell is not throwing up a change order for everything that might go wrong. It's always held true until now.

I explain every contract to my clients whether they are spending 2k, 20, 100k, or 1 mill. Occasionally I have to bring up terms and most customers get it but this one seems to get a glazed over look in her eyes when I bring it up and I know she's not "hearing" it.

My goal remains the same, and that is to finish the project. For Christs sake, were a few days away from it! After two months of hell, I have it in me to do a few more days of work. She just keeps putting me off. I'm really starting to think she's out of money at the moment.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> The deck is also part of the entry and I could really screw things up for her if she wants it that way.


In that case the bigger-picture-question is if in the event someone is injured while accessing or egressing that property as a result of any unfinished work in progress who would suffer from any claims of liability or injury to a tenant or visitor or service provider, IE: mailman, meter reader, lawn service, pizza delivery person, etc.?

What is your exposure to liability if someone is injured while a work in progress is lying dormant. Doesn't matter why is is dormant!

Might want to immediately contact your insurance agent for a review of your exposure in this case.

It's a sticky situation to be in but the truth of the matter is the entrance of that property is apparently *under your custody and control* by means of a contract with the owner to provide and perform a construction service.

Somebody gets hurt and they will likely look to you to compensate them.


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

Invoke your right to cancel in the next 10 days and you'll be available on a T & M basis for whatever else needs to be done. It is reasonable for both parties to understand that these delays ultimately make the original cost structure unworkable. 

Upon the second delay on her part, a change order should be made to reflect the addl expenses. Contractual or not...You send the change order and bill for say $800 of mobilization expenses and a credit memo for the same amount effectively wiping out the charge, as well as a statement showing these postings. You're giving her a break one time. Folks just don't know what these things cost ? Spell it out.

If things are happening to me, I'm really letting them happen to me most times...There may not be enough hours in the day to do the above but at least I know who needs to make the changes.

Steve


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

I have a clause in my contracts, that charge a hefty rescheduling fee if I don't have it in writing 48 hours previous to the scheduled date.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

*Well, it's over...*

... or is it just beginning?

The nut case just called my house telling me we can only work on weekends. I told her that we work Monday trough Friday and that my guys wouldn't be willing to work on there days off, nor would I be willing to pay the overtime at our current price. She said she has someone else lined up if I won't do it, I said fine.

She started making threats, throwing "F" bombs and just going insane. I hung up in the middle of her rage then I got this email:

August 31, 2008
Jason:
This is my final email to you. 
Your services are no longer desired or required with regard to finishing the deck that you started July 7, 2008. This is largely due to the fact that the original time frame for completing the project was projected at 3 to 5 weeks, yet still the project remains unfinished and 2 months have passed. 

Please mail my keys to my address: The materials presently located on my property have already been purchased by me in the 1st and 2nd payments of $xxxx.00 each paid to you. If you trespass on my property to take these materials I will have the police notified immediately.
You have already received more than adequate remuneration for the work that you were able to complete to this point in time. Please mail to me (at the Albany address) copies of all work records and invoices for this deck project.

She just refuses to see her role in any of these delays. At least the email should release me from any harm that may come from personal injury on this incomplete deck (I hope I never need to find out for sure).

What a P.I.T.A. she has been. I honestly believe that even if I did get a chance to go back she wouldn't have paid the balance. It's like she's setting it up perfect for this.

I'm exhausted from all this crap over the last few weeks; hurry up, don't work, hurry up, don't work:wacko:. She's going to report this to the BBB, just great! Can't wait to see how thats going to work out!

I need to tune up my "nut case meter" and consider that in my qualifying from now on. I had a feeling from the start about this on and I should have listen to it!:furious:


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

So what is your next step Jason?


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

When you mail her keys back, ask her to put her email in writing or just print it and sign a copy of it and mail it back. Also, if your contract specifies a different method of canceling the contract, then she needs to follow that. An email just won't cut it.

Emails are admissible, but not as contract modifiers in most jurisdictions.

I wish you had just set up a meeting with her when she called as opposed to talking to her about the job at all. 

If there is one thing I can spot, its a client about to go nuclear. 

GL settling this Jason. I would contact an attorney and preserve all your rights for lien and to secure judgment regarding to whom the material actually belongs.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Don't send her anything until you can be counselled by an attorney. This appears to be a deliberate attempt at payment diversion. It would be wise to have any further communication come from your attorney.:shutup:


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

OCRS said:


> So what is your next step Jason?


I guess I need to lawyer up.:sad:

Double A,

I did try to make an appointment with her but she made excuses for every day next week. Thats when she said we can work on this coming weekend and MAYBE next weekend.

Bud,

I already sent her a reply and probably shouldn't have as you said. I'm going to end communications with her from here out and let the law decide what is fair. Hopefully I haven't caused damage to my case by this email well see what the lawyer says.

We will be on site Tuesday to pick up any of our tools (wheel barrow, saw horses) left and get the concrete that will not be needed on the project. Since you will not and have not allowed us access to the site during normal operating hours you and I have agreed over the phone that you should have someone else do this work.

I will agree to leave all other materials on site so that the work can be completed by others.

I know that you do not understand the sequence of things in regards to the schedule and what your delays have cost us. Your threat to "make our name mud" will be taken seriously if in fact you choose to do so and will be handled with our lawyer if it should come to light. It seems to me that you could find better things to do with your time but what do I know.

I will have a release done by Monday evening and will email it to you. Please review it and let me know if it is agreeable to you. If so just sign it and return it to us.

I do believe that we will never see eye to eye on this situation and the causes of. You do have your right to report this to the BBB if you wish. You'll give your side and I will give mine. I am willing to leave all materials in the slight chance that this will satisfy what you believe is fair. In exchange I would believe it's fair not to bash our company name. If you choose to carry out your threat because you believe it's the right thing to do, that’s your choice. I may also do the right thing by letting the town know that your property is a rental and that you do business there. The proof of that is in your emails to me. I would much rather just agree that we disagree and not get into this pissing match. That is your call, you're in control of that. You can have it any way you want it.

I think it would be best to have all further communication via email from this point on. I do not appreciate being verbally assaulted over the phone.

Best of luck to you on completing your projects. With the materials there and over 4k to finish up 3-4 days of work you should be able to have some left over for other projects. I will happily take the loss to avoid any trouble from you.

The receipts for materials and our record of labor is company information and will not be sent to you since this project was not a time and material agreement. You have told us to leave the property and we will once our equipment is picked up.



Good Luck,

Jason 

I think it's beer thirty:drink:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Man Jason, I have been working on a project since early May in a small town near where I live. She (the owner of the house I am working on) lives in Japan, so just guess why this has taken sooooo looooong. Any who, you should have fired her long before this. I get quite a kick out of it when I warn a customer that if they keep pushing it I am goning to have to fire them. Sounds like good riddens, take your attorney with you to pick up your posessions, and make sure she is there when you do it. That should keep her quiet, or better yet call the local police and tell them you need some assistance with retrieving some of your equipment, the look on a persons face is priceless when you show up with the cops and your attorney. Long story, rich ass HO got hooked on meth in middle of project, it got ugly. I think you are smart enough to make yourself look like a saint and her feel terrible. GOOD LUCK!!!


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Emails can be altered and I don't think they are considered conclusive proof of anything.

I wouldn't worry about the BBB, it is a spineless organization and only has potential authority with paid members. There is nothing the BBB can do to hurt you under any circumstances. To threaten someone with the BBB is a shallow and baseless process. SHE should know that. Forget about the BBB.

I also wouldn't confess to or agree to anything. It's too late for an undocumented compromise. Any further writings should be through the USPS and documented via their processes. YOU NEED A LAWYER at this point. Further communication along the lines of your previous communications can only serve to damage your case.

Under the circumstances she cannot ban you from the premises without you first being served with a court order to stay away.

You can not deal with nuts and to continue to communicate is a waste of time.:no:


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## Thewoodman (Aug 30, 2006)

I had a 40k deck job last year for a guy that turned out to be mentally unbalanced. Two day into the job I realeized that working for this guy would be nothing but trouble. I had $12,000 in material already on the job site and had taken a large deposit to start.

After some major soul searching I decided to fire him as a customer. I wrote him a check for all but a coulpe of grand of the down payment. I told him that after I removed the material from the jobsite and knew that he had not damaged it, I would refund the other couple of thousand. giving him his whole deposit back. 

The day I came to remove the material there was a cop at his house. He told me that he was there by the request of the home owner to make sure I paid him his money. The cop watched us as we loaded the material then left after I gave him his check. I was actually glad to have him there , for proof of me paying him.

The material was special order and I could not return it. I ate $4,000 plus dollars after selling the material in the classifieds. After that experience I wrote my contract to address this if it should happen again.

All in all I fill I made the right move in firing him. It would be nice if everyone out there in the world were nice and understanding, But that is not always the case. So you can't take it personal. Just do the best you can and just think, the more people like that you deal with the better prepared you will be to deal with them.

Mark


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## j_builder (May 10, 2008)

*The nut case just called my house telling me we can only work on weekends*

*Does she have a evil twin sister?*

Tough call Jason!

I've experienced the same kind of wicked woman client on one occasion (really wicked woman). 

I finally finished the nine rotted out balconies in a months time because of her delays, her schedules, her lack of building expertize, and of course the lack of funds to complete the balconies. 

She threatened me that she'd call the cops and have me or my workers arrested if we even drove into a common alleyway (idle or blatant threats don't share me) but the "eyes" from this wild woman did:w00t:...she never called,emailed me or even sent me a Christmas card either. 

Move forward on this one and remember it for life, so it doesn't happen again.

Good Luck on the out come

I agree with Bud 

You can not deal with nuts and to continue to communicate is a waste of time.:no:

BTW, You might want to call the local PD to inform them that you need to pick up your tools/materials just incase she decises to switch from from Alice in Wonderland to Ms. Charles Manson.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Thanks for the support guys.

I've re-read my contract with her and found some open doors. I also contacted the local Constable in that town.

Hold on tight, you may feel a rumble in the earth on Tuesday Morning.

More to come:laughing:.....................


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

for what it's worth, I do not agree with the verbage chosen for corresponding with your customer. Even when the customer is wrong and difficult, treat them with respect. Once the crap started flying you can bet most (all) customers will not hold back. 

Some of your responses are more indicitive of what might be heard by employees and not the owner. Too late to change the direction of this transaction, but the emails back and forth are no good. Even though face to face interactions are more difficult and stressful, the ease of miscommunicating feeling (or going to far) with an email makes it a poor choice for airing differeneces. 

Best of luck and please don't take it personally


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Chevy,

I don't take it personally. All opinions are welcome, thats why I posted it.

This has been a very strange trip for me. I have never exerience a client that had absolutly no reasoning skills at all(or pretends thats the case). I guess I've just been lucky. I've had plenty of experience with dead lines but never combinded with "you can't work on..."

I really feel she is out of money and she is trying to make it my fault some how. Why else would you delay the completion to this project?

I've got 3-4 days to complete and shes got 4k!:blink: All the materials are on site!

On the legal side, I wish I could take back a few things, but as said by others, I'll learn from those mistakes.

I've covered my ass with the payment schedule so at least I'm not paying out of pocket for anything. I've also noticed that some additions need to be made to my contract.

Even in the light of things gone bad, it's all good:thumbsup:


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## Schmidt & Co (Jun 2, 2008)

I've been reading this thread & just had to chime in. I have found the only time we have been hurt on a job is when we did'nt listen to that "little voice" in the back of our heads. 

My father is our company founder & about 20 years ago we had a "learning experience" with another psycologist of all people. He was a little nervous with this HO, but it was the middle of winter & we were hungry for the work. So he got a 1/3rd deposit & we started a 2 week paint job. 

Dad waited a few days to deposit the check..... Job is completed, customer argues about the signed change orders, we compromise & agree on a reduced balance. Customer wants to pay the balance out of his money market account that has a minimum amount you can write the check on. He askes us if he gives us a check for more than the balance, can we wright a check to him for the diffrence. So dad agrees..... About $2,000.00

Well guess what, the next day we get a statement from our bank that his deposit bounced, and a few days later his next check bounced. Of course OUR check was good! So we did the WHOLE JOB for free & he had $2,000.00 of our money!

Well, at that point we contacted our lawyer, after a couple of months of back & fourth we settled. We essently did the job at cost, but were happy to even get that!

So with that learning experience behind us, both dad & I ALWAYS listened to that "little voice" when meeting with a prospective customer. Dad's retired now for about 8 years. But he was a great teacher to me. Just last week I declined to bid on a job after meeting with a prospect. The guy was telling me about how EVERY other painter that ever worked on his home did something wrong.... And he kept going on and on. I was not going to be the one to try and prove to them that there are good contractors out there!

So good luck tomorrow & keep us posted!


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Jason,

Sounds to me like you found the 2 or 3 worst clients all rolled into one. Reading through all the replies so far I would agree to these points;

Stop e-mailing her unless the verbage is lawyer approved. Make all of your future corespondence easily documented. 

Adjust your contract for future protection. Ours has a clause addressing customer caused delays.

The BBB is nothing to worry about. As always, worry more about your local reputation (past customers) and the customer at hand.

One other thing, don't let this interfere with your planned time off. If anything, it is more important now.

Good Luck
Dave


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## JBBS (Jan 17, 2008)

OK its Tuesday....what happened?!


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

Hey Jason I didn't notice this post until today I just read the whole thing. What a freak wack job that ladie is! I hope it works out for ya. But ya it is Tuesday what happened?


Dave


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Let this be a lesson to everyone.

Being the nice guy only gets you into trouble. Don't ever let a payment milestone slide, don't ever let the HO think it's their job. It's YOUR job at their house. They are really just bystanders.

It all starts from the first time you meet. You must make it crystal clear that you are the boss--not them. If you get the vibe that it's going to be a tug of war for power, run. It will only get worse.

Jason, thanks for posting this experience. We all learn from these things. Remember, what fails to kill you only makes you stronger!


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Also, a good point to remember before sending off a scathing or threatening letter, is to write it, but don't send it.

Review it the next day with cooler feelings.

Possibly post it for others to review and adjust it.

Or, just hire Greg Di to write it for you. If the written word is sharper than a sword, then Greg's are the Samurai version of the written letter.

Ed


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> Let this be a lesson to everyone.
> 
> Being the nice guy only gets you into trouble. Don't ever let a payment milestone slide, don't ever let the HO think it's their job. It's YOUR job at their house. They are really just bystanders.
> 
> It all starts from the first time you meet. You must make it crystal clear that you are the boss--not them. If you get the vibe that it's going to be a tug of war for power, run. It will only get worse.



A lot of truth in that statement!


SIDE BAR:
About seventeen years ago I took a stand on a progress payment that was due me on a job. They wouldn't pay me on time simply because they new I had issues with them ignoring my change orders that increased their costs.

They said they were afraid if they paid me that I would take the money and pull off the job leaving them high and dry and looking for another contractor to complete my work.

I told them "IF THEY DIDN'T PAY ME, I was walking away.

I gave them until 5pm the next day to have my check in my hand. Five pm came and went and no check. The next day I pulled all the equipment off the job and sent the guys to other jobs, never to return to that work site.

Bottom line is it cost me $31,000.00. That's a hard pill to swallow but I did it.

Truth is.......there was a serious lesson in it for the both of us.

I sued, but after spending another $8000 on a shyster lawyer I walked away from that ass hole also. Sometimes you have to take your lumps, mitigate your damages, and move on with your life.

I'm still in business today, that company went under about year after they had their way with me. ADIOS.:clap:


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Or, just hire Greg Di to write it for you. If the written word is sharper than a sword, then Greg's are the Samurai version of the written letter.
> 
> Ed


Thanks, Ed. I'm flattered!


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Well, I didn't do anything stupid although the thought sure crossed my mind how many ways I can "F" her day up while I was there today.

She told me last week I couldn't work there because she had people renting. Went there to get my tools today and know one was there. I talked to the neighbor and she said nobody's been there all week. Whatever, I'm moving on.

I did take some pictures to show were I left things and that the materials were on site when I left. 

Seems stupid to pull the plug so close to the end of things. It must be a money thing. What a ***** to make accusations that it's something else!:furious:

Here's the hole we started in


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

And here's what we "almost" built for her. 3 more damn days!!!


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Sorry, my IE was misbehaving and I had to re-start. Here goes........


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

I did get the guys paid and the materials out of the draws I received. I'll be takeing a loss for my time.

I'm just going to send her an ivoice for what she owes me based on completion and let the chips fall where they may rather than waste more energy on it.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Tell me again why you didn't just finish the job? 

You said if I'm not mistaken, you have a contract that covers you for stopped work and has spelled out pretty clearly who owes what, when and where.

Would you just be better off finishing this job and then it's pretty clean and pretty cut and dry -- Job is done, you owe me $X.XX. From there it's just a matter of collecting which is relatively easy, instead of this mess of limbo that it sounds like you are in.

Do you have in your contract a clause that talks about job site accessibility? Mon-Fri 7:00 Am - 7:00 PM and the ulterior course of action if job site is not accessible?

If you don't have it, time to add it, also add in that clause about providing you with clean electricity, water and toilet facility. If you do have it why didn't you just schedule the finish of the job and explain to her that you would work weekends and hand her a change order for the extra costs?


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

xxx


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Tell me again why you didn't just finish the job?


We were initially delayed by almost three weeks due to her not getting a plumber to move a water line. She understood that then but no longer does.

As Greg pointed out, I was being to nice and tried to work around her plans so we wouldn't disturb her clients that rented the house. It bit me in the ass this time but usually it has always got me great praises from my customers.

After reviewing my contract, it's pretty weak to protect me from dip **** Home owners like this one. I've really never encountered such a person in my life.

After this I can see I need to add in about a page of things to the back end of my proposals.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Well, contracts that we all use aren't for the normal customers. For those customers we could all get away without even using one and not be any worse for it. Contracts are really for the exceptions, the people who are trouble, don't want to play fair or are just nutty. I know the last doosey of a customer we had, afterward I tightened up at least 3 areas in my contract that showed weakness they exposed, thankfully though the contracts we had were at least good enough to cause them to back down and not even try us on. But it's hard to think of the contingencies you need until you need them, sometimes it takes a customer like this to show you where you need to protect yourself. 

I read through our contract with every customer as we are signing them up, going over everything and it gets a little embarassing sometimes as you read that stuff out loud to them, it sounds like you are ridiculously trying to cover every contingency to the point of beating the customer into the dirt, but that's the result of the few exceptions, they cause those clauses for everyone else.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

I have a pretty reasonable contract. My Lawyer rewrote it a few years ago, but it too, Like Mikes, is based on problems that have come up over the years. 

Trouble is, if there IS a problem, customers simply cannot believe they are wrong, or in breach of the contract, or that the contract they signed actually means something. In the last 3 years, I have taken a few people to small claims court, and the judge has found in my favour simply becuase the problem was already covered by my contract.

For example, my contract says payment on completion; If it is 5 days late, , there is no warranty. recently I had a lawyer pay me in 10 days, even though there was absolutely no problem. His reason: he didn't want to be rushed. He was a miserable type anyway, and difficult to deal with. I sent him the warranty certificate marked void, and now he's threatening to sue me. It's as if the contract means nothing.


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## darienite (Aug 30, 2008)

Reading this...and a few of the other stories...has anyone taken out liens? Not an immediate solution, but something to think about.:shifty:


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Well, contracts that we all use aren't for the normal customers. For those customers we could all get away without even using one and not be any worse for it. Contracts are really for the exceptions, the people who are trouble, don't want to play fair or are just nutty. I know the last doosey of a customer we had, afterward I tightened up at least 3 areas in my contract that showed weakness they exposed, thankfully though the contracts we had were at least good enough to cause them to back down and not even try us on. But it's hard to think of the contingencies you need until you need them, sometimes it takes a customer like this to show you where you need to protect yourself.
> 
> I read through our contract with every customer as we are signing them up, going over everything and it gets a little embarassing sometimes as you read that stuff out loud to them, it sounds like you are ridiculously trying to cover every contingency to the point of beating the customer into the dirt, but that's the result of the few exceptions, they cause those clauses for everyone else.


Thanks Mike. Your last paragraph explains my hesitance for adding in all the legal jargon. However, I got off real cheap in this case and see that I have some weak spots.

I'm heading into some larger contracts shortly and if this type of thing went wrong without a contract to protect me, I'll be screwed to the wall for sure!

Just amazing that I've worked for so many people without the scary terms and it took just one to make me change the way I do business. I hope that won't change the initial perception of future prospects.


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Also, a good point to remember before sending off a scathing or threatening letter, is to write it, but don't send it.
> Review it the next day with cooler feelings.
> ...Ed


Good Advice, I've given the same advice out, and applied it as well. 

It works. :thumbsup:, you will always go back and either tone it down, or not send it at all, and be glad that you did....


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

AtlanticWBConst said:


> Good Advice, I've given the same advice out, and applied it as well.
> 
> It works. :thumbsup:, you will always go back and either tone it down, or not send it at all, and be glad that you did....


That "send" button has made asses 
out of better men than me or thee.
Even folding a letter, sealing the envelope
and sticking on a stamp used to give 
one a little time to think the better of it.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

I don't think I said anything that bad, did I?


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

It's just that you did express some regret.
Just saying that damn "send" button is 
too easy sometimes.
I have learned to sit on e-mails when I'm
POed because I've sent some when I 
wished the were a "*retrieve*" button. :laughing:

More agreeing with Greg and Atlantic
than commenting on the content of
your e-mail. :thumbsup:


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## Schmidt & Co (Jun 2, 2008)

Ummmm.... It's a good looking deck though


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Schmidt & Co said:


> Ummmm.... It's a good looking deck though


Glad you brought that up because it kinda got lost in the shuffle. I agree by the way.

And also, we do the same as Mike, read every line and every word stopping now and then to make sure they comprehend as best I can. The usual reaction is "wow, you do cover everything". Most seem to appreciate it.

Like has been said, it is really only for the few. According to my lawyer, a successfully completed contract is a waste of paper.

Good Luck
Dave


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Jason W said:


> I guess I need to lawyer up.:sad:
> 
> Double A,
> 
> ...


Firstly, materials that are Not attached to the property do not belong to the client and are yours up to that point.

Now, the other bolded and underlined sentences should have been eliminated.

Threats do no one any good. Action does. Certified letter and a summons by your attorney would have forced her hand to allow access to complete the project, if you chose not to throw away your profits.

Ed


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Yes, it was going to be a really
nice deck. :thumbsup:


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

:w00t::w00t::w00t:

This just couldn't get any better!

A week ago I sent her the keys along with a stop work order through certified mail. I've been checking the tracking # and she hasn't signed for it yet.

Today I went by the job and saw a truck there so I stopped and looked over the hill to see an old friend from another job a few years back. He was told the "other" contractor was taking too long. I went on to tell him my side of the story and played the few messages on my cell phone for him as evidence. Just then the Neighbor stopped by and told them "be careful, she's nuts"!:clap:

I shot the bull with the guys for a few and he told me that she showed him a release form but didn't know it was my company name so it didn't click. Apparently she got the copy in an email I sent, printed it, and now I have proof. It also warned her that until she signed it and I returned it with my signature we were still under contract and if she broke the contract we would proceed with collections within our rights in the state of Vermont.

The guys decided to pack it up and not return.:laughing::thumbup:

She's about to hit the wall hard and I believe I see a payday down the line after all!:thumbsup:


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

I like the way you played that!!!! Good strategy!


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Thanks Malco.

Turns out she wanted to change the design too and move the Hot tub. (she just had it wired up two weeks ago). She's gone to Maine until Monday and expects everything to be done upon her return. These guys also had enough left over material to build an 8 x 8 deck on the lake side of the house where she intended to move the tub.:laughing::w00t:

Ain't gonna happen:no: I'll be removing the extra materials tomorrow.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Get it. Get it. Get it and Screw Her. Screw Her. Screw Her!!!


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Jason W said:


> :w00t::w00t::w00t:
> 
> This just couldn't get any better!
> 
> ...


 Good.Sounds like he is a stand up guy.I glad for you she hired someone you know....Good luck.


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

Sounds like its working out for ya Jason. Yup get the material and get out! she is gonna sh*t a brick when she gets home!:laughing:


Dave


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Did your friend have a contract with her to finish the work, or was he just estimating it, or did she "Promise" to pay him T & M to finish the job up/

Hope he didn't get himself in any trouble on your behalf.

I'm sure glad he walked though.

Ed


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

They got a $1800 down payment for labor only. the two of them where two days into it. He said they would leave an invoice and a reimberstment check under the door for the remainder of the time not worked.

NO CONTRACT!:laughing::laughing:

The agreement was to finish my deck and build her 8 x 8 deck WITH MY MATERIALS and move the tub for 3K.:blink: (she owes me 4.2K on completion) Nice for her huh?


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Good for you. And good for your friend too. She won't like how her second victim spit the bait.

Good Luck
Dave


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

Wow! It's not very often things turn this way. Good for you Jason! :thumbsup: I'm sensing you're gonna hafta file a restraining order soon though :wacko:


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

OCRS said:


> Wow! It's not very often things turn this way. Good for you Jason! :thumbsup: I'm sensing you're gonna hafta file a restraining order soon though :wacko:


You might be right!

Do you think I could get away with adding motion censored security lights and a break in alarm to the damages?:jester::laughing:


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Jason W said:


> You might be right!
> 
> Do you think I could get away with adding motion censored security lights and a break in alarm to the damages?:jester::laughing:


Only after there is a need for a R/O. But ABSOLUTELY!


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Jason W said:


> They got a $1800 down payment for labor only. the two of them where two days into it. He said they would leave an invoice and a reimberstment check under the door for the remainder of the time not worked.
> 
> NO CONTRACT!:laughing::laughing:
> 
> *The agreement was to finish my deck and build her 8 x 8 deck WITH MY MATERIALS and move the tub for 3K.:blink: (she owes me 4.2K on completion) *Nice for her huh?


At the risk of sounding like my Grandmother...The nerve of some people!:furious:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Can your buddy sign his invoice "Bob the Contractor, a.k.a. Jason's Buddy" just to tweak her? :laughing:

It would be nice to see/hear her expression/fit when she gets it.

Glad it's kind of worked out for you...you must have some good karma banked.

J


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

J F said:


> Can your buddy sign his invoice "Bob the Contractor, a.k.a. Jason's Buddy" just to tweak her? :laughing:
> 
> It would be nice to see/hear her expression/fit when she gets it.
> 
> ...


He called me this morning to let me know he left her a message. He told her that he knows me well and doesn't want to get involved until the legal stuff is over. He also said he told her I should have had a fair chance to finish the work.:laughing:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

nice :thumbup:


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Now thats a real friend for you.

Way to go. Make sure you take him out for dinner soon.

Maybe you could even get him to join this forum and relate his experiences with this psycho idiot.

Ed


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Now thats a real friend for you.
> 
> Way to go. Make sure you take him out for dinner soon.
> 
> ...


Ditto on all counts!


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

And ditto again!

It seems you may have mastered the ole falling into sh*t and coming up smelling like roses routine. 

Well, you deserve it.

Good Luck
Dave


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

I just got her signed request to stop work. It was post marked for the day after the other guys started working. This is great! More proof and another agreement broken.:laughing:

It states that until both signatures are on it, we are still under contract. (I sent it without my signature):innocent: oops!

I just sent her a VERY fair "settlement agreement" for the 4.2k balance less the 1.8k she is paying the other contractor. She has till Friday to pay the bill or I lien the property for the full amount of the contract, use of left over materials, and costs to us for delays by her!arty:

I'm expecting a phone call from a crazy lady, I'll not answer, see if she leaves a message, and let her keep digging that hole.

Oh, my buddy doesn't do computers.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 9, 2008)

WOW!!!! From north to south and east to west, we all get a "crazy lady" LOL LOL. I started reading this string and couldn't stop. it gave me an Idea........ homeowners have Angies List, how about contractors start "Dicks List" a place to report dead beat homeowners who pull crap like this. When the home owners tell you they will need to check you out..... Simply point to the BOLD at the bottom of the contract *we check all homeowners background on DICK LIST.*


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

I think I posted a thread last night with this, but here goes again.

http://crapcustomers.com/crapsamples.htm

Ed


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Ed the Roofer said:


> I think I posted a thread last night with this, but here goes again.
> 
> http://crapcustomers.com/crapsamples.htm
> 
> Ed


Short term memory loss is
just an early symptom. :laughing::clap:


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 9, 2008)

What can I say?........ The 80's were rough..... PVC glue is strong. YOU try to run a genius mind with that working against you LOL LOL!!!!!!!!


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

neolitic said:


> Short term memory loss is
> just an early symptom. :laughing::clap:





Proud Plumber said:


> What can I say?........ The 80's were rough..... PVC glue is strong. YOU try to run a genius mind with that working against you LOL LOL!!!!!!!!



*I had a good reply, but I can't remember what it was right now.*

By the way, too many solvents to clean the membrane roofs. Lots of Tolulene and Xylol and Acetone.

Ed


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> *I had a good reply, but I can't remember what it was right now.*
> 
> By the way, too many solvents to clean the membrane roofs. Lots of Tolulene and Xylol and Acetone.
> 
> Ed



Ed did you mail out the check to my company yet??:shifty:


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

rbsremodeling said:


> Ed did you mail out the check to my company yet??:shifty:


:laughing:


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