# Customer stopped payment



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> You can like it on some other site. Ain't gonna happen here.



Plus, it's been suggested more times than I care to count. And not just here, either. It's nothing new, and has been tried before. So far, without success.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> 4K to file a lien?



Hey, the lawyer is entitled to make money too, if you need his number, PM me, I'll recommend my guy anyday


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## Deckem (Jan 27, 2011)

You might want to go to the local police dept. and file a "theft of services" claim, when the police show up at her house it will show that you are serious. Now you have the police report to show your damages. File a mechanics lien on her home and send her a letter that you have a lien on her home and a notice of intent will be posted in the local news paper. In the letter of intent you send to her by cert. mail state that you intend to force foreclosure proceedings. I don't know if the laws are the same by you, in Illinois this is the law and this is what I would do here where my business is!


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## Theron (Feb 7, 2012)

No contract. No justice.Simply Lien on the house and be done with it.The lien Is a attention getter.Good luck.


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## Handyman3970 (Nov 21, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> You can like it on some other site. Ain't gonna happen here.


I suppose there are legal issues with that.


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## Handyman3970 (Nov 21, 2010)

Deckem said:


> You might want to go to the local police dept. and file a "theft of services" claim, when the police show up at her house it will show that you are serious. Now you have the police report to show your damages. File a mechanics lien on her home and send her a letter that you have a lien on her home and a notice of intent will be posted in the local news paper. In the letter of intent you send to her by cert. mail state that you intend to force foreclosure proceedings. I don't know if the laws are the same by you, in Illinois this is the law and this is what I would do here where my business is!


I did talk to the police but they said there was nothing they could do. Maybe he didn't know or didn't want the paperwork. 
I will however pursue a fraud charge if the lawyer feels its justified.


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## Handyman3970 (Nov 21, 2010)

Theron said:


> No contract. No justice.Simply Lien on the house and be done with it.The lien Is a attention getter.Good luck.


Working on a contract now. Never needed it till now since I'm in a small town. Was bound to happen.


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## Handyman3970 (Nov 21, 2010)

So, I talked to the flooring contractor that she held money from. 
$300 and he never got it and get this..he did the tile in the bathroom, went to put the fixtures back and the pipes were too short. He said call her plumber as its his fault and he's not a plumber. 
She insisted he fix it and that's why she held money. 
She's a real piece of work.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> Hey, the lawyer is entitled to make money too, if you need his number, PM me, I'll recommend my guy anyday


Sure doesn't sound like a ham and egger, I'm happy with my guy luckily I don't have to employ his services often.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

This isn't the US, fraud is not a common term or loosely applied term as our friends in the south use it.

The cops are not getting involved as it is a civil matter in their eyes, not criminal

The prosecutor isn't going to do anything, again civil matter, not criminal

It only becomes criminal when you wrap a chain around the door and rip it out, then your the criminal...ask Heritage on here if he shows up, he went through this same thing, only he did remove the drywall he wasn't paid for, got his pee-pee wacked for that one.

Unless your out to piss her off with a lien that's going to cost more to discharge than the outstanding amount, which you are entitled to do, go the small claims route

And don't worry about talking to the flooring contractor she screwed, etc, you worry about yourself only, the one thing too many guys do is put emphasis on what the client did with other people, they make it personal...don't stick to the facts that pertain to you and your outstanding balance and leave it at that.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> This isn't the US, fraud is not a common term or loosely applied term as our friends in the south use it.
> 
> The cops are not getting involved as it is a civil matter in their eyes, not criminal
> 
> ...


Well said but I would think it would be less expensive to lien then to opportunity cost to go through small claims court...either way its 700 bucks...:whistling


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

I can't speak to the laws in Canada, and IMHO based on what you posted about the flooring guy, she may have had a legitimate complaint (he should have known plumbing would have been an issue before installation). 

I would simply send her a CRRL AND regular mail that explains you installed the product that she provided and the only complaint that she had was the metal on metal sound that (as the place she bought it from explained to her) is a reality of the product SHE chose. It has nothing to do with the installation, which is what she contracted you for. If you can, get a letter from the Lowes guy explaining this reality (even if an email) and enclose it with the letter. When you left she provided a check for final payment. Explain to her that *"as you can see from the attached email/letter from the store Ms. Customer, the store YOU bought YOUR door from has also explained the reality of the sound you don't like and that it is a function of the door NOT the installation. This is the only issue you have told me about as your reason for cancelling the payment you provided after having a chance to inspect the installation, but if you do not like that door, I am sure that they will take a return (but be sure to check), but it will cost $***.XX to remove it and $***.XX to re-install the new one."* (IOW, it is HER problem).

Explain that you hope this clears up any confusion on her responsibility to pay but if not, detail to her your options (i.e. - lien and/or small claims) and that if they become necessary additional costs will be added to the final bill if left unsatisfied. Give her a date certain ("time is of the essence" clause) of when you expect to be contacted by or receive payment. After this date, you will move ahead with the lien and force the foreclosure which will also add additional collections costs to the final bill.

End with *"Ms. Customer, I certainly hope that all the above will not become necessary as I do not wish to see you exposed to additional unnecessary costs over a balance of $700, as it can turn a matter of hundreds owed to a matter or thousands when these proceedings occur. I look forward to receiving your payment."*

The important thing is follow-through. If she does not respond by the date provided, file the lien and/or small claims paperwork and send her an along with copies of the paperwork and updated bill that includes the balance owed and additional fees. 

If that doesn't get her attention, move ahead with the paperwork.

Best of luck... 8^)


P.S. - use of contracts are not for the honest customers, but the DIShonest ones... Protect both of you in any case...


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

I don't know the specific laws in Canada, but I know they are similar to US. 

First, don't take actions that will cost more than the $700 based on principle. A brief feeling of satisfaction is replaced by long term regret on wasting more money on some notion of revenge. 

Second, it does help to go through all the letter writing demanding payment and the reasons why. It shows due diligence on your part and the lack of response on hers

Third, don't count on small claims court to resolve this. We have won many times in small claims, yet failed to collect, regardless of the various methods the court uses to collect. You may also run into a judge that sides with the HO, rather than the contractor.....often due to prejudice against contractors. 

Fourth, you have a "seasoned" non-payer. You obviously aren't the first and will likely not be the last. Count it as education and a incentive to come up with a "quick and easy" contract that covers this stuff.......if you make it too cumbersome and too detailed for these small jobs (like under a $1000), people that just want something fixed quick won't go for it. I suggest a one pager that has your terms, estimated price, final price, warranty, guarantee, and terms of payment. Plus add in the process for any resolution to disagreements. Small print, one page, keep the wording plain and to the point. Having it on 3 part NCR paper helps so each of you has a signed copy, plus a hard one for your records.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

I disagree cwat. Principles are everything. We all know what is right and what we and others justify as a 'business decision'. I do not want to live in a world of business decisions where the dollar dictates everything everyone does.

Need a kidney transplant for a six year old kid? Not worth it; sorry just business. Habitat for humanity for free? sorry can't do it busines. Honoring your contract and providing a quality product. Sorry, business. Pretty soon you're in the wild west and everyone has a six shooter and nobody works with each other any longer.

One of the primary reasons I love what I do is I don't have to work in a corporate mentality. No cube farm, no downsizing, no hot dog sales. I don't care about the customer stealing the money from me; but I'll be damned if I'll let them steal my integrity.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Metro M & L said:


> I disagree cwat. Principles are everything. We all know what is right and what we and others justify as a 'business decision'. I do not want to live in a world of business decisions where the dollar dictates everything everyone does.
> 
> Need a kidney transplant for a six year old kid? Not worth it; sorry just business. Habitat for humanity for free? sorry can't do it busines. Honoring your contract and providing a quality product. Sorry, business. Pretty soon you're in the wild west and everyone has a six shooter and nobody works with each other any longer.
> 
> One of the primary reasons I love what I do is I don't have to work in a corporate mentality. No cube farm, no downsizing, no hot dog sales. I don't care about the customer stealing the money from me; but I'll be damned if I'll let them steal my integrity.


I understand your disagreement, and, sticking to a set of principles. However, my points were addressed to a contractor who got shafted on a door install, not a philosophical point of heath care, organ transplants and so forth. 

Part of being a "business"person is making financial decisions in such a way that you are in business tomorrow, next week, next year. 

Often times, this involved taking the emotional part out of making business decisions. Firing an employee because you got pissed off is an emotional decision, paying a lawyer hundreds or thousands of dollars to collect on a $700 debt, or, spending dozens of hours preparing for a small claims case has to be weighed against the possible outcomes. 

If your business model is to punish those that offend you in some way, then I hope you have a whole lot of money and time to invest. In an emotional way, you want to hurt or change the behavior of a person that you feel has unreasonably hurt you (financially, emotionally, physically, etc). If this is something that you dwell on, then it's you that needs professional help. 

As far as kidney transplants, homes for humanity and other heath and philanthropic pursuits, then unfortunately, whether you like or agree with it or not, these decisions are many times made in reference to the resources available. That is just reality.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

cwatbay said:


> I understand your disagreement, and, sticking to a set of principles. However, my points were addressed to a contractor who got shafted on a door install, not a philosophical point of heath care, organ transplants and so forth.
> 
> Part of being a "business"person is making financial decisions in such a way that you are in business tomorrow, next week, next year.
> 
> ...


I know I'm painting with a broad brush and the world is not black and white. Yes there are times you have to say that I cannot afford to do x just because I'm angry (or in love with or indebted to or whatever) with y. For me, I would make time to make a customer who created bs excuses for not paying me a pittance uncomfortable.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Metro M & L said:


> I know I'm painting with a broad brush and the world is not black and white. Yes there are times you have to say that I cannot afford to do x just because I'm angry (or in love with or indebted to or whatever) with y. For me, I would make time to make a customer who created bs excuses for not paying me a pittance uncomfortable.


I agree with you on this point of making the customer uncomfortable. I think that writing letters, applying a lien and possibly taking them to small claims are all viable ways to resolve the problem. Weighing in the costs of your time and money. Frankly, if it was me, I would do the letter, lien and small claims routes. Small claims where I am will ending up costing you around $100 to $150 by the time you are through. 

I have made MANY emotional business decisions, which in retrospect, I could have done much better with better outcomes, if I had extricated my emotions from the equation and approached things from a cold hearted, calculated, business/financial point of view. I definite could have put the "hurt" on the other party more effectively. 

On another personal note, I watched my father (blue collar, middle class union guy) invest over $300, 000 on a completely fruitless "wrongful termination" lawsuit against a billion dollar company with dozens of lawyers on retainer (PS: it wasn't my father, it was my POS brother who probably deserved to be fired).


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Metro M & L said:


> I disagree cwat. Principles are everything. We all know what is right and what we and others justify as a 'business decision'. I do not want to live in a world of business decisions where the dollar dictates everything everyone does.
> 
> Need a kidney transplant for a six year old kid? Not worth it; sorry just business. Habitat for humanity for free? sorry can't do it busines. Honoring your contract and providing a quality product. Sorry, business. Pretty soon you're in the wild west and everyone has a six shooter and nobody works with each other any longer.
> 
> One of the primary reasons I love what I do is I don't have to work in a corporate mentality. No cube farm, no downsizing, no hot dog sales. I don't care about the customer stealing the money from me; but I'll be damned if I'll let them steal my integrity.


It's nice to stick to principles but unless you have a barrel of money to blow it comes down to numbers every time.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Handyman3970 said:


> Yep, I've been putting the contract thing off for too long. Time to get one drawn up.
> Anyone know where I can get a generic contract that I can fix up to suit my area and needs?


Thecontractorsgroup.com. Has great contract templates and all other construction forms


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

theft of services or fraud will never apply here.. for fraud, you wold have to prove the HO's intent to deceive and establish she never had any intent of paying.

stopping payment disputes that theory..she issued a check then stopped it due to dissatisfaction..now it is civil.

if she wrote you a bad check and didnt make good on it is a different ball game., received work and goods etc..that can be fraud..

this is not..

for the 700, threats are not worth it and unless you know the lien process, you need a lawyer..and currently it would not be worth it..10 years down the road , it may be..

i had a couple liens come in after 15 years...was nice to wake up...like hitting the lotto..(well almost)

i think its best to try and get a meeting and discuss it..being nice will go further here.


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## CSinMa (Mar 4, 2012)

I think there should be a website dedicated to the non paying customers who keep screwing contractors so we all know who not to do business with. Fair is fair, they have sites that are directed to non performing contractors, why not non paying wannabees.


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## CarrPainting (Jun 29, 2010)

It wont happen. Who ever hosts such a list, opens them up for major lawsuits with the charge of defamation of character... bad news as the limits on such a suit are somewhere up around the stratosphere. And each person on the list can sue, individually. Its a legal nightmare.

As far as black lists for businesses, thats somewhat different as businesses are generally not considered a 'person' unless you get into some serious hotwater. and even then, its generally an 'it' and not a 'who'

which is why crappy businesses can get blacklisted and the business doesnt have much recourse, cause a business is an 'it'

Now... with that said, its due to all these horror stories on this site that I now get signed contracts.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Not if it is customer reviews. The person opening the site wouldn't comment on the people who are bad to work for, the contractors would. And it would just be the truth (as long as they were telling the truth - duh)

Why can Angies list have a contractor rating system along with the BBB and not get hassled for bad ratings and contractors not have the same thing about their past clients?

Just state the facts.

Joe Blow didn't pay out $22K on contract to put in driveway.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Not if it is customer reviews. The person opening the site wouldn't comment on the people who are bad to work for, the contractors would. And it would just be the truth (as long as they were telling the truth - duh)
> 
> Why can Angies list have a contractor rating system along with the BBB and not get hassled for bad ratings and contractors not have the same thing about their past clients?
> 
> ...


I supposed as long as the site owners were neutral as to the postings (i.e. - allowing both sides to give their story and let the reader come to their own conclusion), and that it clearly states that, I don't see a problem with it...


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## mgb (Oct 31, 2008)

you can't get away with throwing on some door bumpers, or moving the strike plates closer to the door stop?

I don't like how the ball catches rattle around either. But I'd think there'd be a solution without involving lawyers.


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## maninthesea (Nov 11, 2008)

Maybe if you worded it as a statment and qualified it as an opinion not a fact. Such as 


Bob the builder will no longer do buisness with Jane Dirtbag becuase we consider recent stop placed on final payment check to be unwarrented.


Instead of saying 
Jane Dirtbag ripped us off for the last payment by putting a stop payment on her check.


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## CSinMa (Mar 4, 2012)

I guess there are sites out there for "DeadBeat" customers, check out this guys way of exposing them...I love it ! http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/Deadbeats/deadbeat.html


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

CSinMa said:


> I guess there are sites out there for "DeadBeat" customers, check out this guys way of exposing them...I love it ! http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/Deadbeats/deadbeat.html


There is a local grocer that does that from time to time... he places the checks as a group right in his front window where people walk into the store. Interestingly enough, they never stay up there long...

Unfortunately, that guys customers sphere of influence will be unlikely to see his display or wall of shame...


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## Deckem (Jan 27, 2011)

I don't know if it's the same in Canada or even other states in the U.S. but in Illinois, stopping payment on a check is fraud! You never cut a check and then stop payment. I have had this happen to me a couple of times. Every time this happened my attorney filed a fraud complaint with the states A.G and had the SOB that cut the check served at their place of employment ( by a little 70 tear old woman that was hard of hearing and talked very loud) **still makes me smile!** I always got paid. The attorney's fees were always about the same as the check,(they were small amounts) so I still lost money but it was a principal thing. 
I do agree with some of the others, If you need the money, you don't have the luxury of standing up for your principals.


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## Handyman3970 (Nov 21, 2010)

mgb said:


> you can't get away with throwing on some door bumpers, or moving the strike plates closer to the door stop?
> 
> I don't like how the ball catches rattle around either. But I'd think there'd be a solution without involving lawyers.


I tried a couple of things and she was given options by both myself and Lowes. 
She was too stubborn to accept.


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## Handyman3970 (Nov 21, 2010)

Deckem said:


> I don't know if it's the same in Canada or even other states in the U.S. but in Illinois, stopping payment on a check is fraud! You never cut a check and then stop payment. I have had this happen to me a couple of times. Every time this happened my attorney filed a fraud complaint with the states A.G and had the SOB that cut the check served at their place of employment ( by a little 70 tear old woman that was hard of hearing and talked very loud) **still makes me smile!** I always got paid. The attorney's fees were always about the same as the check,(they were small amounts) so I still lost money but it was a principal thing.
> I do agree with some of the others, If you need the money, you don't have the luxury of standing up for your principals.


Yes, its considered fraud here as far as I can tell. 
Also, my understanding is, if a lawyer is involved with fees, those can be added in to her cost. 
At this point though, if I only get $50 out of it, I'll be happy that she got back what she deserves.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

stopping payment is not fraud..I thinmk those who are posting that, should also provide some facts and or links supporting that..only in keeping with providing accurate info.. National law pertaining to fraud defends stopping payment...as seen below..

WHAT DEFENSES MAY BE RAISED TO BAD CHECK PROSECUTION? 



Post-dated check - a check with a date after the date on which the check was presented is considered a post-dated check and may not be prosecuted criminally. The post-dating of the check creates an extension of credit, even if only for a day, and converts the case to a bad debt situation. 

Stopped payment on a check - a check which was dishonored because payment was stopped, and not because of insufficient funds, may not be prosecuted criminally. 

Payment of antecedent debt - a check which represents payment of an antecedent debt (e.g. - repayment of a loan or payment on an account) may not be prosecuted criminally. 

Statement by the maker of the check at the time of tender that he has insufficient money in bank to cover the check, though he expects to have the money in the bank by the time the check is presented. In effect, the payee has agreed to extend credit and there is no present consideration. 

Prior dealings of the parties. 


here is a link for further reading and info..

http://www.ckfraud.org/faq.html#5

i have charged someone with check fraud and got paid as a result ..however..dont ever try to go this route as a payment tool in court..you will get your ass handed to you from a judge...follow the rules..written notice and/or verbal notice..within 10 days..then aceclerate the action...written is better as it is recorded and documented.


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## Five Arrows (Jan 30, 2010)

Talk to your customer.
Resolve the problem.
Get paid

be thankful that you were able to buy a course from paying your dues on contracts for something small.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

KAP said:


> There is a local grocer that does that from time to time... he places the checks as a group right in his front window where people walk into the store. Interestingly enough, they never stay up there long...
> 
> Unfortunately, that guys customers sphere of influence will be unlikely to see his display or wall of shame...


I have seen something similar done at a neighborhood convenience store.


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## Deckem (Jan 27, 2011)

In Illinois, when a check is given for services rendered and the service has been completed prior to the payment, a case can be argued in the courts that the stopping of payment for these services constitutes fraud.
This is the argument that my attorney won all of my cases with.
Fraud is the willful deception with intent. By giving a check, the customer has accepted the work, by stopping the check, the customer has committed willful intent and is viewed the same writing a bad check.
This is my experience, and my attorney has won thousands of these with this argument!
Don't forget, there are a lot of laws that have been amended.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

Deckem said:


> In Illinois, when a check is given for services rendered and the service has been completed prior to the payment, a case can be argued in the courts that the stopping of payment for these services constitutes fraud.
> This is the argument that my attorney won all of my cases with.
> Fraud is the willful deception with intent. By giving a check, the customer has accepted the work, by stopping the check, the customer has committed willful intent and is viewed the same writing a bad check.
> This is my experience, and my attorney has won thousands of these with this argument!
> Don't forget, there are a lot of laws that have been amended.




thousands?...this guy must be Super Atty......my thought s are he hasnt even had a thousand cases let alone a thousands...stopping payment is not fraud..you can argue anything you want..

fraud will be willful intent to deceive..issuing payment and then stopping it is not fraud..just like disputing a CC charge....it can be argued that the work was found to be defective and she feared him not returning to fix it..this is not intent to deceive.

where it goes if they do not make good on it is another story and possibly may walk the line...


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

different states have different laws. In NJ maybe it isn't considered fraud, but many other states it possibly is.


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

When I get a deadbeat check or have a slow payer on my hands, I let my wife call and deal with them. 

She's never come back empty-handed!

Really!



I love my wife!


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Handyman3970 said:


> [Deadbeat Clients]
> It is a great idea!
> Would make for a good sticky thread.


Sort of the contractor's version of angies list 

I could stick a few names up there,
also, more than a few GCs and subs...


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Handyman3970 said:


> I did talk to the police but they said there was nothing they could do. Maybe he didn't know or didn't want the paperwork.


I'd still do it. They should file a police report and you can get a copy of it and/or reference that number. A lot of cops think they are the decisionmakers on whether or not a case can be successfully prosecuted in court--they're not, that's the DA and the court's job. Their job is to write reports and/or apprehend anyone. 

So if a stealing, conjob homeowner has 4 police reports on him/her/it from 4 different contractors all stating the slimebucket didn't pay them, don't you think that would carry weight?

Then get the local TV station involved as they like to do when contractors rip off HOs, now it's the other way around. Be interesting to see the HO's response to having a camera shoved in its face and asked, "why do you keep stealing from contractors?" or the like. Then have it air at 10pm news....


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