# Newbie



## rob3429 (Feb 18, 2006)

Hi Guys ..well and Gals .. I am a newbie to the forum and would just like to say this is a great forum . I am newley in buisness for myself . I have over 15 years in Residential Painting Exp. I am currently trying to find some good Job Bidding software thats hopefully free . was wondering if any of You have any or know where I can obtain some . I am like I said just getting started on my own and have to keep expensis's down till I get a few more jobs under my belt and a little more cash flow . any help or advice that you may give would be greatly appreciated ...Thanks in Advance .....Rob :thumbsup:


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## easyrider241 (Jul 29, 2004)

Welcome to the board


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## JMGP (Mar 29, 2005)

There is no "Free" software for estimating... If you want to be cost effective because you are just starting out... try to creat an estimate sheet with a word document OR... set up your excel program... Spend a few bucks on a carbon copy set at Staples or something... there are reasonably priced software out there for "Painting Contractors"... there is also a thread(s) on here regarding those software programs...

hummm... let me check... I may have something I can post here to help you get started....or to just give you an idea......

gimme a minute...

Joe


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## JMGP (Mar 29, 2005)

Rob,

you dont want to "fly by the seat of your pants" you want to look and be as professional as possible...(obviously you already know that by wanting a software program) and by wanting to do a "true" estimate...and keep track of your data... (not this amature napkin crap!) 

You have enough experience to know how long it will take "you" to prep and paint each substrate... use that information to figure out your production rates and unit costs... by having a software program full of your data with that information will allow you to do a "true" estimate FAST! The software programs are only data base programs that you have to put your own info into them.. in return you will get a well detail "professionally" printed estimate... AND keep track of your true costs/profits...AND will allow you to know what areas you may need to change...and be consistant with your prices...

We all have different ways of estimating... its what ever works for you... 

By ONLY using the "eyeball" estimate method... you will probably find your estimates will be like a roller coaster...and you could lose a lot of money that way... You want to be as consistant as possible...

I understand that you may not have the right data yet... but keep track of your data and work your way towards true estimating... you will reap the rewards $$$


Also, dont act in a hurry... you want to spend the time with the homeowner and make sure all questions are answered... by spending the time with them... they will feel like you care about their concerns... that would be one thing that set you apart from other contractors too....

There are a lot of professional painters here that have a lot of valuable info too...

Joe


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## JMGP (Mar 29, 2005)

This estimate sheet is not what I use but may help you or at least give you an idea...





I found these also.... click on print out each one......

http://www.dunnedwards.com/retail/content.asp?content=74&ID=1


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## JMGP (Mar 29, 2005)

Rick Anderson said:


> rob..
> 
> another reason why software sucks is because software doesnt look into the eyes of the customer or hear the words they speak...
> 
> ...



No "experienced" contractor would give an "over the phone" quote (ball park figure)... I think you are misunderstanding what software programs could do for you... and you are missing out...

Maybe its becuase you talk a lot but dont listen...hummmmm

If your method works for you great!

We I am trying to guide Rob in the direction of "true" estimating... hopfully he will catch on...

Thanks,

Joe


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## JMGP (Mar 29, 2005)

Rick Anderson said:


> *"No "experienced" contractor would give an "over the phone" quote (ball park figure)... "*
> 
> experienced contractors do precisely that...but it takes experience...lots of it....less experienced guys shy away from ballparks
> *
> ...



If you havent used software.. than you cant debate something you know nothing about... 

maybe you did try it but wasnt smart enough to figure it out... so it all "sucks" to you... maybe you dont want to take the time to better your knowledge...be more consistant, organized, detailed, professional.. etc etc...

it's obvious in your statements you have misunderstood my points...

the software "ALONE" dont determine costs... it's the information that "YOU" put into it...

I bet 99% of the people on this forum use software for estimating and figuring their "true" costs... and im sure it benifits them well...

I would help you out but...but I would have to start charging you...since your a little slower than others...

I dont take Canadian Foodstamps though...:laughing: 


Joe


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

Oh boy....Mr. Know Nuttin is at it again. Software allows you to track costs, provide consistent and fair pricing, keep track of all of your customers and their contact info, previous job history, jobs bid, won and lost, provide thorough and professional looking estimates, impress customers, and about a thousand other VITAL things that I haven't mentioned. 

As far as pricing goes.....you enter your prices for everything from different types of doors and windows, to trim, walls, ceilings, etc, etc. The software doesn't determine anything, more like it formats it all. I mostly use the software to put all of the data into a professional looking format in a very detailed manner efficiently. 

I think it's become quite obvious that you have no understanding of how to demonstrate professionalism, or how to properly run a business. This isn't kids play. We are here to make a profit, and as any business does we need to fully understand every detail of what happens with our money so that we may better control expenses and keep profit margins higher while still offering our clients high quality work at a price that the customer will VALUE. 

None of us here are trying to look at a house and say "$3000!!!" whilst scribbling on the back of an overdue phone bill. Your knowledge of painting and business in general is severely lacking, and I can't get over you proclaiming yourself the "pope of painting"......I think you should do more reading than advising Rick.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> true estimating doesnt include pre-conceived notions about the value of things....the "true" cost is what people will pay...


So you charge what it looks like someone can afford?

What I mean is...if you walk into house "A" and it looks like Mr. and Mrs. Rich Customer can afford to pay $3000 for a job...and then the same day, you walk into another house, same exact job and it looks like Mr. & Mrs. Not So Rich Customer can only afford $2000, you charge two different prices for the same job? (I'm talking hypothetically..please don't start telling me how no 2 jobs are the same...I know that)

That's unethical, and should be illegal (if it isn't already)...charge what you charge...those who can afford it will and those who can't just won't have the "worlds greatest painter":laughing: working for them.


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

Rick Anderson said:


> *"Software allows you to track costs, provide consistent and fair pricing, keep track of all of your customers and their contact info, previous job history, jobs bid, won and lost, provide thorough and professional looking estimates, impress customers, and about a thousand other VITAL things that I haven't mentioned. "*
> 
> i do all that without any software
> 
> ...


Whatever you do is most likely a slow, clunky process. Scribblin' numbers on scraps of paper is not effective book-keeping. 

It is quite obvious you've forgotten a lot....like manners and general decency towards other people. Probably forget to tie your shoes judging by your posts......

Again, your website is a self-proclamation. The interview with the lawyer (of all things) is juvenille, and you wouldn't know a "superstar" if it fell outta the sky, landed on your face, and started wiggling! :laughing:


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## JMGP (Mar 29, 2005)

jproffer said:


> So you charge what it looks like someone can afford?
> 
> What I mean is...if you walk into house "A" and it looks like Mr. and Mrs. Rich Customer can afford to pay $3000 for a job...and then the same day, you walk into another house, same exact job and it looks like Mr. & Mrs. Not So Rich Customer can only afford $2000, you charge two different prices for the same job? (I'm talking hypothetically..please don't start telling me how no 2 jobs are the same...I know that)
> 
> That's unethical, and should be illegal (if it isn't already)...charge what you charge...those who can afford it will and those who can't just won't have the "worlds greatest painter":laughing: working for them.



Yeah.. thats exactly what he does... he has proven he doesnt know how to estimate so he determines price by there being a BMW in the drive way or a Kia... which is definitly unethical... it fits his character..

I think I have come to the conclusion that he is as fake as they get... the only thing he has experience doing is flapping his gums...

it sucks getting sucked into nonsense.. but when someone is waving a red flag all the time its hard not to...

there is nothing more rewarding than providing valuable information and sharing ideas to fellow painters that may or my not help them out... none of us know everything...and we could all benifit from good info... however, it seems that "most" of the responses that we ever get from him is garbage...


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## rob3429 (Feb 18, 2006)

I am sorry to have to disagree with the ones that dont think the software thing is the way to go . I would just like some others have said in this post keep a more consistent way of bidding and be able to keep track of cost and man hours and more efficiently and I think it looks a little more proffessional to be able to submit a printed out bid than one you scratched down on your left over napikin from lunch that you ate in your truck . Most of my current work has came from customers using word of mouth and many of the GC's that I have done work for in the buisness while working for someone else . I appreciate all of the feed back but I still lean toward the software . Thanks again and I hope You all have a prosperous new year .


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## rob3429 (Feb 18, 2006)

*Nice work*

nice job on the Estimate sheets there JMPG ..thanks


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> I am sorry to have to disagree with the ones


Just to clarify...it's not oneS..just one...THE one...THE only...Rick Anderson who thinks estimating software is a bad thing. I think most everyone else would agree they're an asset as long as they are used correctly.

Mr. Anderson, 

OBVIOUSLY...we all know that every job is different and anyone who uses numbers spit out by computer software as the end all, unwaivering, concrete number that they should charge is asking for trouble. Much like you are by giving estimates over the phone, even if it's only "ballpark". Personally, if I called you and you said "about $2000" over the phone, and then you arrived and bumped that to $3200 SOLELY because I was moving in 3 days, I'm afraid I would have to politely tell you to stick your napkin estimate up your napkin A$$. I'm guessing you didn't tell her the price went up because she was moving, but people aren't stupid. If you had kept your mouth shut on the phone and simply said that you would have to see it before giving ANY numbers, then the only number she would have heard was $3200 (still unethical if you would have charged $2000 normally, but she wouldn't have known that). 
I haven't seen (nor do I care to see) any of your work, so you MAY very well be the worlds greatest painter (doubtful considering the company you're in), but with all due respect, you have no clue about running a professional business. I mean really, going into peoples homes and jotting measurements down on scrap paper??? C'mon. Get yourself some forms together (alot of them you can probably find right here on this site) and at least make it look like you know how to do something other than paint. Owning a painting business (or any business) has nothing to do with the ability to paint (or whatever the business pertains to). Without business sense, you're just another employee...you just happen to be the employee who makes the most money.

2 more points that I've heard from various people then I'm done:thumbsup: 

Ballpark figures are only good if you're building ball parks.:jester: 

and.....

The definition of a business is: If you wanted out tomorrow, could you sell your "business", as it is, for any respectable amount of money? If you say no, then you don't own a business, you just created yourself a job working for yourself.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

"Software allows you to track costs, provide consistent and fair pricing, keep track of all of your customers and their contact info, previous job history, jobs bid, won and lost, provide thorough and professional looking estimates, impress customers, and about a thousand other VITAL things that I haven't mentioned."

We use Quickbooks for most of the above.
I can't think of an estimating program that will do all that.
All in one programs are clunky. Like the old "all in one" stereos.
You have to adjust your company to suit an estimating program?
You will very soon find out (like I did) that you will spend a stupid amount 
of hours searching, trying, learning, changing, adapting 
and at the end realize how useful that time would have been 
building your contracting business, creating systems, marketing, 
even painting if you so desire. 
As an owner or president of your company, do you get paid a salary
independently of the field work? You should.
Then you know what your time is worth. you may find out you spent 
$20,000 worth of your time looking for the perfect solution, 
in the meantime complaining how expensive this and that is,
because it costs a few hundred dollars.

I have bought and tried the following:
Devwave, PEP, CPR, Eagle Bid. The end result is:
This time wasted will never come back.
A new contractor has a business to build, all this stuff everyone is selling
is mostly junk.
You need Quickbooks and some calculating system for your estimating.
Some customer contact program is nice too, if you don't use the Quickbooks version


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

It is not imperative that you need an estimating program
to have a successful contracting business, but it might help.
One of the most successful and growing painting companies ever, doesn't. 
(in the Philadelphia area for some that know which one) 
At least that is what the owner posted couple of years ago.
They likely have great systems for estimating like they have systems 
for everything else.


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## JMGP (Mar 29, 2005)

George,

you are right... that it isnt "imperative" that one "needs" an "estimating" program... 

I think "some" of you may be getting confused with the "estimating" part... these programs are "called" estimating software but... they are not "estimating" programs... they are just programs to add data into them and are used to create professionally printed estimates...with "YOUR OWN" data...

the point about these programs is that you can keep your data "organized"...

Thats exactly what Quickbooks does for you... I use quickbooks for all kinds of data...

some figure it out more than others... nothing wrong with that...

the program I use took me a few to learn it well...I take my field data (measurements...etc, etc)and go to my computer and fill in name and address... then its all point and click from there... no spending all kinds of time figuring hours, or hand writing my estimate and wondering if I charged accordingly etc etc...

the programs you have mentioned I have tinkered with all of them and have found that with alittle effort... you can have a nice set-up... you will never find a plug-n-play software program for your exact needs... you will have to learn and spend time with them... I guess I have patience... it sure has paid off...

when you start a business its time consuming to find out what works and what dont...spending "many" of your own hours doing that... thats the sacrifice you must be willing to take... especially starting one on a limited budget.. which I think "most" painters do...

You could have a system but... is it an efficient one...

I can guarantee these millionaire painting companies that you talk about dont use a file cabinet system...they must have some form of a data base of information for their estimates... and im sure they dont bid by ONLY a eyeball or ballpark...

As far as Rick goes... what a joke... He's more of an embarrasment to your industry where you live than a benifit! 

He has proven that over and over...

he thinks that having a spot on Google makes him a business man... ha ha ha:laughing: 

alright im done with that character...


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> dont tell my students that...i lecture twice a week at a local community college on entrepreneurship and small business


God help us all:sad: 

Do you "teach" your students that it's ok to charge customers that look like they are rich MORE than the average joe?


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

JMGP said:


> George,
> 
> you are right... that it isnt "imperative" that one "needs" an "estimating" program...
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. The estimating software has done tons for me allready. When I first started I was able to provide my clients with a professional looking estimate when, at that time, I really had no clue how to estimate. However, I could provide more detailed and professional looking estimates than most of the competition. Like those guys that write on napkins, Rick. I still don't know it all, but the software has helped ME to organize my business. Quick books is good, but I can't figure sq footage with it, amounts of doors, windows, trim, etc. and have it print it all in a nice format. If I wanted that I'd spend more hours baning my head than I have with estimating programs and it still wouldn't accomplish what I want. On another note, I absolutely love my business. It's more of a hobby than a job to me, so working on software is not even a concern. 

I use quickbooks pro for all of my accounting, but just learning it alone is a massive undertaking. The estimating programs have allowed me to get my head around my numbers as the pertain to each individual job in a much easier fashion. 

$269 is expensive for a piece of software. I understand that there are programs costing thousands of dollars, but anything over $100 for any piece of software is outrageous. Most 3d games today take a hell of a lot more work to develop than an estimating (database) program ever will and the new releases which take up 6 discs of space only cost $59.99. I like the Linux way of doing things....it's all FREE!! $269 or free.....269 = expensive.

Rick, you would go so far as to say anything that keeps your ego polished. From this point forward you will simply be known as "the peanut gallery".... :laughing:


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Figuring square footage and counting doors is something excel can do
What you have is a calculating function.
Professional proposals? That's what Word is for. 
Beautiful 4-6 page proposals, customised (quickly) to address your prospects every single need in detail and be your silent salesperson.
Tight but customized terms and conditions that don't look like fine print.
For example:
_"Paint colours – Colours must be decided a minimum of three days before work starts.
If the colours are not decided by that time, re-scheduling may be necessary. 
Colour samples and matches are only approximate, as exact duplication is not possible. Ecopainting Inc. will provide assistance to the customer, including samples, lending of our “colour box,” and other resources where possible. If required, we will paint a test patch in several areas of one room. Cost is $30.00 per colour plus cost of sample paint.
Computer colour matching is available. The cost of this service is $45.00 per colour.
A change of a colour, after work has started, is subject to extra charges. The reason is that tools have to be washed, a trip to the paint store has to be arranged, there is extra cost of materials and the work sequence will be affected." _
This is a part of our latest proposal (job). Customers love it. 
Great value all around, good money maker and it sells jobs for us. 
At the same time it is very tight contractualy.
Can PEP do that?
An estimating program is a calculator and a data collector.
Any more than that you have a clunky situation or what JM said: 
you have to customize it and spend the time doing it.

Also there is a distinction between a hobbyist and a businessman.
Most of us use the hobby thing as an excuse for not getting paid for our hard work. You will soon find out that you have to distinguish between the two.

Now, for Vancouver's Best Painter.
I don't agree with some of his opinions but he is allowed to have them.
Should we call him ...colourful? (or colorful)


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

My contract terms are simple enough for anyone to understand. No mumbo jumbo, just plain english. The point is the spreadsheets and databases are allready created, and I can plug in my info without having to develop a whole separate tool on my own in excel. I'll use that time setting the software up to do my bidding, pun intended. PEP can store most of my contract terms and automatically apply them for me. I'm telling you, when you really get down to all it can do it's awesome. 

Yes, my job is my hobby. I don't know of any way in the world to get payed for putting the systems in place that will take my company where I want it to go. I pay myself a good salary, which will increase as time goes on. I don't care about getting paid fiddling with these things, because they all pay off once the systems are in place. 

Unlike some people, I come from no money what so ever. Every bit of the business I own now has been built off my own blood, sweat, and tears. If it gets me where I want to go in life (which it's doing a pretty decent job allready in just over a year) then I don't mind one second of time spent on it. 

This is not a case of not getting paid for work. This is a case of seeing nothing better to do with my free time than work on things that will further my business efforts. My evenings consist of nothing more than toying around on the computers anyway. 

Yes, the idea is to build a $uccessful business, but if you truly enjoy what you're doing money is no issue. I guess I view that stuff different because I never had money, my parents didn't have any, etc. Now I'm seeing rewards from my efforts, and quite frankly, putting the extra energy into my company is exhilerating.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

AAPaint said:


> My contract terms are simple enough for anyone to understand. No mumbo jumbo, just plain english. The point is the spreadsheets and databases are allready created, and I can plug in my info without having to develop a whole separate tool on my own in excel. I'll use that time setting the software up to do my bidding, pun intended. PEP can store most of my contract terms and automatically apply them for me. I'm telling you, when you really get down to all it can do it's awesome.
> 
> Yes, my job is my hobby. I don't know of any way in the world to get payed for putting the systems in place that will take my company where I want it to go. I pay myself a good salary, which will increase as time goes on. I don't care about getting paid fiddling with these things, because they all pay off once the systems are in place.
> 
> ...


Sounds good


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

Rick Anderson said:


> Alcoholics Anonymous slurred:
> 
> "I never had money, my parents didn't have any"
> 
> ...


My children will have plenty of money, as they do allready. Btw, you're the only thing that'll ever get dropped between me and you. :boxing: :clap:


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## old27 (Feb 13, 2005)

Rick Anderson said:


> cool...happy for the yungins..
> 
> fightings ok..but i prefer the more macho approach...
> 
> ...



Did you get your signature from this freak show website? http://www.itstimetowakeup.com/Essay_Allen-Ruiz.html

Gadzooks.


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## CarlW (Feb 2, 2006)

Rick Anderson said:


> cool...happy for the yungins..
> 
> fightings ok..but i prefer the more macho approach...
> 
> ...



You don't really think that the winner of those 10 weenie events can be called the worlds greatest athlete do you? That's a joke, right?


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

Rick Anderson said:


> *"and I can't get over you proclaiming yourself the "pope of painting".."*
> rofl...thats a little understated...try www.worldsbestpainter.com


Congratulations on securing and _purchasing_ nothing but a domain name. 
Reckon I'll go out today and get:
www.worldsgreatestlay.com
www.worldsrichestman.com
www.worldsmosthandsomeman.com
www.worldsluckiestguy.com
www.worldshippestdude.com
www.worldsbestsalesman.com
www.worldsnicestguy.com
www.worldscoolestcat.com
www.worldsmostvaluableplayer.com

Holy crap, then I can actually _*be*_ who I *think* I am.
Wow, can't wait to go out and *troll* the web and proclaim myself to the world. Kudos to me.

Paleeze.


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## CarlW (Feb 2, 2006)

Rick Anderson said:


> not the worlds "greatest"...but the "best all around athlete"...yes, for sure...
> 
> check the scoring charts...all top marks (anything approaching 1000) is world class...
> 
> ...


No, man but you don't have any endurance type events. I don't really understand what those events are trying to measure...looks like it would be a fun thing to do at the family picnic though.


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## CarlW (Feb 2, 2006)

Rick Anderson said:


> hi carl
> 
> having an endurance event (without actually having a race) was one of the initial challenges for the Selection Committee..seeing as how we did not want to duplicate any of the events in a decathlon...so we did two things...
> 
> ...


Yeah, I figured that the rope jumping was about as close to an endurace test out of all the events. But, when I think of worlds greatest athlete type people, I think of Michael Jordan types...maybe it's just me, but he has that endurance thing, agility, dexterity, field awareness, intelligence, etc....your 10 events really measure none of those things. But, maybe I'm being too picky...I'm sure it's just all in good fun and that is cool. By the way, what do you do with all the cash generated?


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

Rick Anderson said:


> cool...happy for the yungins..
> 
> fightings ok..but i prefer the more macho approach...
> 
> ...


Too punk to try? LoL....I'm quite athletic, I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings by taking away one of your self-proclaimed titles, bahaha!! :laughing: 

How bout both....first I squash the ego. Then I squash your mellon! :clap: :boxing:


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

I don't measure my worth by how good I am at sports. There is so much more to life than throwing balls around and skippin' rope. I'm real good at martial arts..I don't need any other sport.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> glad to see you giving a little more thought to your postings


This from a guy who says: "if you don't dig football, hockey..etc, etc..and FOOTBALL (do we have to double dig football?)...."


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## cutnroller (Jan 20, 2006)

My own experience with "estimating" software is limited, but I do know that that the software is always only as good as the data entered into it. I also know that as soon as I can afford quickbooks im getting it.

But I decided that in the early stages of my business that it would be best to do things the (old fashioned) way at first just so that I could wrap my head around all the numbers and figures. I figure this will help me out more when I start shopping for software as I will know exactly what I need out of a program.

I made up all my own estimate sheets, cost sheets, contracts etc based on what I want for my company. Eventually I will find a program that matches my system to some degree and I will then probably use it. But until then, with my very small business needs, I will do things by hand as much as possible so that I can really learn the stuff inside out.

So not slagging software, I think technology is great. I just want to learn the behind the scenes stuff first so that I can make better use of the technology someday. :thumbup:


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