# Who's job is this?



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I need to install an exhaust fan in two bathrooms on a job coming up. Nothing is there now. 

What sub will take care of the pipe in the roof, cutting the hole, flashing, making sure it doesn't leak? A roofing sub or a mechanical sub?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Call the original roofer because if you cut a hole in his roof you are probably voiding his workmanship warranty.

When I work on remodels and rehabs usually it is the MEP sub who puts the vent throughh the roof and it is I who makes sure it does not leak. Infact that is the way I INSIT it to be. The reason being I want to make sure the roof is properly installed no matter what. If it leaks they are going to call me, the roofer, not the MEP contractor. I want to eliminate that call back before it happens.

2) I have seen the way most MEP contractors seal up a roof when they make a penetration and it usually involves heaps of roof cement and I am usually there a year later to fix their mess ups. In the defense of the MEP's I'd probably schlock up some mechanical work if I were ever to try it.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Grumpy said:


> Call the original roofer because if you cut a hole in his roof you are probably voiding his workmanship warranty.


Hmm, that never crossed my mind. 

Okay, what the helll does MEP stand for? Mechanical....?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

MEP, Mechanical, Electrical, Plumbing

Exhaust fans are often my responsibility, but any roof penetrations are the roofer's baby to rock. I'll cut up through, and duct tape the opening or silicone the best way I can until the roofer gets there to install proper flashing/capping. Sidewall penetrations I cap and seal myself. 

I like to vent bath fans out the soffit, and install the vent cap in the soffit whenever I can. I figure the less penetrations in the roof, the better.


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

How exactly would one go about schlocking down shingles. Sounds almost sexual in nature.

_Fricken no good shingle schlockers.:cheesygri _

_Bob_


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Getting more than one guy involved on such a trivial job is absolutely crazy in my book, - - level of 'consciencousness' seems to be inversely proportional to the number of trades involved, - - either do it all yourself or leave time on your schedule for the repair.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Tom R said:


> Getting more than one guy involved on such a trivial job is absolutely crazy in my book,...either do it all yourself or leave time on your schedule for the repair.


Yes, that is how a handyman would think.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

MEP - there are guys like that? I only know separate electricians, plumbers and mechanicals, nobody who has all the licenses. I must be missing something.



Tom R said:


> Getting more than one guy involved on such a trivial job is absolutely crazy in my book, - - level of 'consciencousness' seems to be inversely proportional to the number of trades involved, - - either do it all yourself or leave time on your schedule for the repair.


Yep, it sucks, but it isn't crazy, it is just the reality of keeping it all legal. While I could easily do it all myself and have done it all myself in my own properties where I could under a homeowner's permit, I can't do it as a GC. It is also important I keep my business model scalable and repeatable, I want to avoid at all cost this business essentially being "me", because that becomes a dead-end when I try to scale it up.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

On a lot of remodels I do, I might need only $200-$300 worth of plumbing or electrical sub work. Luckily I have some good guys who are able to fit in these small jobs for me and keep me on schedule. 

Talking about crazy Tom, I'm doing a job where the customer has a built in big screen tv in their living room, essentially it is mounted from the back of a closet into the living room, they want to take this out now, fix the hole and mount a plasma above where the old TV was.

1) Electrician to add an outlet on the wall for the plasma TV to plug into.
2) Structured wiring contractor to run the audio and video to an outlet for the tv to plug into.
3) Drywall texture contractor to perfectly match the existing texture back again.
4) Painter - they are taking care of that, using the guy who already painted the inside of the house for them once.

My part in it is to frame the hole, put up the dry wall, tape and mud it, replace some hardwood flooring in the closet where the big screen was, and of course hire all the subs. 

How's that for a circus side show? 5 guys to fix a hole in the wall in somebodies living room.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Mike, I'm in the same boat. I would have to hold all of those licenses as well, if for no other reason than to CMA. 

There is one guy that I know of that has been working his way through all of the licensing for about 15 yrs. now. It seems as though someone in the Bldg. Dept. ticked him off back when.... He is currently an electrician, carpenter, plumber, painter and God knows what else. LOL I know his brother but haven't seen either one in years.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

mdshunk said:


> Yes, that is how a handyman would think.


Especially one who's experienced the pitfalls of anything other than 'self-reliance'. :thumbsup:


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> On a lot of remodels I do, I might need only $200-$300 worth of plumbing or electrical sub work. Luckily I have some good guys who are able to fit in these small jobs for me and keep me on schedule.
> 
> Talking about crazy Tom, I'm doing a job where the customer has a built in big screen tv in their living room, essentially it is mounted from the back of a closet into the living room, they want to take this out now, fix the hole and mount a plasma above where the old TV was.
> 
> ...



You're right, - - that's crazy-as-all-hell in my book, - - I don't know how stringent things are in other areas, - - but around here somethin' like that would be too petty to even be a problem.

For instance, - - remodeling a bathroom doesn't even require a licensed plumber unless the fixtures are being 're-located', - - only other thing involving the plumbing requiring a license is the installation of the 'anti-scald' device.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

mdshunk said:


> I like to vent bath fans out the soffit, and install the vent cap in the soffit whenever I can. I figure the less penetrations in the roof, the better.


Installing an exhaust hood on the roof is a simple operation, - - exhausting up, across, and then down is a tremendous loss of efficiency.

Do the customer a favor, - - call in a good 'handyman'!! :cheesygri


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Vent runs should be limited to 25ft., knock off 5 ft. for each 90 deg. bend.

Funny thing, I was just calculating the flow vs. turbulence factor in using flex vent hose in a sweep configuration vs. a sheet metal 90 deg. elbow for my house. I'm still entering data, I'll let you know how it comes out.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Teetorbilt said:


> Vent runs should be limited to 25ft., knock off 5 ft. for each 90 deg. bend.
> 
> Funny thing, I was just calculating the flow vs. turbulence factor in using flex vent hose in a sweep configuration vs. a sheet metal 90 deg. elbow for my house. I'm still entering data, I'll let you know how it comes out.


And I doubt venting 'downward' is even on the chart.

Remember, - - those calculations are for 'day-one', - - that flex will cake up with dust much quicker than the smooth-wall in time, - - don't even want to get into it's 'life-expectancy'.

I wouldn't use flex on someone else's house, - - let alone my own!!


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Tom, I'm an engineer. I have a work station running Catia with finite element analysis. I do this kind of thing for fun and just to satisfy my curiosity.

You are an antagonist. I'm interested on your viewpoint against flexible metal duct for bath vents.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Flex friction losses are generally around 4 times more than sheet metal. These are outlined fairly well in the ACCA Manual 'D'. Many heat and a/c systems flow enough to overcome even the high friction losses when flex ducting is used for major portions of the system. If the ducting system is great (large, that is), and the CFM requirements at each register are strict, the use of flex may become objectionable. Some (commercial) mechanical codes only permit flex to be used in short sections for the final termination at the register or grille. 

It might interest some guys to know that flex is not permitted for dryer ducting anymore in accordance with the IRC. You're only permitted to use flex for the final connection to the dryer. You're not permitted to fasten the sections of dryer sheet metal ducting with screws or rivets (no protruding fasteners). The sections are just slid together hard, and taped with foil tape. I know that doesn't have anything to do with bath fans, but I just thought I'd pass it along anyhow. I've seen a good many field correction notices written up on improper use of flex duct for dryer exhausts.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Teetorbilt said:


> Tom, I'm an engineer. I have a work station running Catia with finite element analysis. I do this kind of thing for fun and just to satisfy my curiosity.
> 
> You are an antagonist. I'm interested on your viewpoint against flexible metal duct for bath vents.


Hmm, - - sounds 'antagonizing'.

Like having fun myself, - - what more is an atagonist to say.

Viewpoint has pretty much been stated, - - it's cheap, it's thin-walled, it's a dust-catch, and has a comparatively short life-span.


P.S. And after reading back I'm seeing you started out talking flex 'hose', - - then changed to flex 'metal', - - so for the record, - - I'm talking about hose.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

mdshunk said:


> Flex friction losses are generally around 4 times more than sheet metal. These are outlined fairly well in the ACCA Manual 'D'. Many heat and a/c systems flow enough to overcome even the high friction losses when flex ducting is used for major portions of the system. If the ducting system is great (large, that is), and the CFM requirements at each register are strict, the use of flex may become objectionable. Some (commercial) mechanical codes only permit flex to be used in short sections for the final termination at the register or grille.
> 
> It might interest some guys to know that flex is not permitted for dryer ducting anymore in accordance with the IRC. You're only permitted to use flex for the final connection to the dryer. You're not permitted to fasten the sections of dryer sheet metal ducting with screws or rivets (no protruding fasteners). The sections are just slid together hard, and taped with foil tape. I know that doesn't have anything to do with bath fans, but I just thought I'd pass it along anyhow. I've seen a good many field correction notices written up on improper use of flex duct for dryer exhausts.


That's the EXACT 'technical-interpretation' of what I was trying to say!! :cheesygri 

Good stuff, md.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Tom R said:


> You're right, - - that's crazy-as-all-hell in my book, - - I don't know how stringent things are in other areas, - - but around here somethin' like that would be too petty to even be a problem.
> 
> For instance, - - remodeling a bathroom doesn't even require a licensed plumber unless the fixtures are being 're-located', - - only other thing involving the plumbing requiring a license is the installation of the 'anti-scald' device.


Yep, but it's the reality I have to deal with. Installing the outlet is going to be as simple as cutting in a new work box and running about 6 feet of 14/2, all of about 10 minutes, but I'm not doing it. 

My insurance doesn't cover it, so I'm not willing to risk my family's life style and I'm not willing to risk the customers $1,000,000 home ultimately when their insurance company would deny their claim also. It amounts to a quick $125.00 bucks to my electrician and a $200 charge to the customer. They want what they want so you figure out what it takes and hit them between the eyes with it, if they want it done by me that's what it will cost, if not they have to find a handyman to roll the dice with. The whole thing is costing them $1200.00. They didn't bat an eye and instead were greatful to have somebody they could rely on to just get it done and get it done right. A lot of people in this income bracket don't bat an eye at stuff like this, they think nothing of spending $300 to have their car cleaned, they pay cleaning people to clean their house once a week, they hire sprinkler companies to turn their sprinkler systems on and off at the beginning and end of the season, they hire nannys for their kids and dog walkers to play with their dogs...

In the end I will put almost as much in my pocket hiring out what needs to be done on this job as I would if I did it all myself. That's middle management in America and the power of the mark-up!:thumbup:


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

JustaFramer said:


> Oh you know the liberal hippies and their granola. Those types which are the majority are quite regular. :jester:


Hmm, - - keep that up you're gonna be on 'double-secret-politics-probation' around here!! :cheesygri


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Any issues with connecting 2 fans to the same exhaust pipe?

These are two bathrooms sharing the same common wall, both need exhaust fans installed. Any pros or cons with T'ing them together?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I've done that a few times where the wall is brick, and only making one hole is desirable and quicker. A single 4" cap will not flow enough for 2 fans, so use a 6" vent cap, and get a 4x4x6 wye. The bath fans have dampers in them, so there's not a big issue with air from one fan coming out the other if it's not on also.


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