# coiled roofing nailer for hardi backer



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm looking to purchase a couple of coiled roofing nailers to use to nail down hardi on floors for tile prep and get away from screwing it down for the increase in productivity.

Will need to shoot 1 1/4" corrosion resistant nails.

Any suggestions on the best guns?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

For that, I would suggest the Max Super roofer. It has a pretty good depth adjustment feature.


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## Joining_heads (Mar 4, 2008)

Hitachi


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

Mike, 
I really like the senco standup screw gun, I swiched from a Bostich roofing to it and never looked back. For larger installs 100'+ I get a helper to spread with a 18" notch trowel and i use self leveling spikes to walk on the spread areas and lay down the backer and screw it off.

Craig

The 
Fact that you never have to get on your knees as you install it makes it more effecient with just 1 or 2 installers working with 3 guys a gun might be a little faster in time but not man hours.


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## john5mt (Jan 21, 2007)

max super roofer shoots the straightest of the ones ive used (max, hitachi, bostich, and milwaukee)


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## Five Star (Jan 15, 2009)

Im with craig, except i use the quick drive system, Roofing nails can squeak or move since there mostly smooth shank! I find its not worth to skimp on the sub base,can come back to haunt you:thumbsup:


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## Stilts (Feb 18, 2008)

I've used a porter cable for almost 4 years now. I got a great deal on it, and decided to go with a nice cheap gun instead of high dollar because the dang thinset always seems to get all over them which can't be good for them.

I've used a bunch of brands for this, and every single one I had to follow up with a hammer and set a few nails per sheet. I havn't tried a max, or the hard to find super expensive hitachi that's specially designed for hardi. 

Thought about dropping the money on the hitachi several times, it's got some kind of booster on it so that it has a bunch more power than normal roofing nailers. I just couldn't convince myself to spend over twice as much money on a gun that was going to get all gummed up with thinset, which I figured would wreck a gun in a hurry. I have to admit though, I don't get as much thinset on it as I thought I would, and it doesn't seem to tear it up as bad as I thought either, so it might be worth the extra money.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I don't do tile very much, but I can't see the big savings here. I did my whole kitchen, probably 140 sq ft, and screwing it off took all of half an hour. It would probably take me that long to drag the compressor in here, unwind the hose, and hook up and start nailing. Gotta take down that whole setup as well. Nothing like the sure feeling you have with a screw grabbing vs the nail down method.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Where is Angus at?

Why aren't you using Ditra?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Warren said:


> I don't do tile very much, but I can't see the big savings here. I did my whole kitchen, probably 140 sq ft, and screwing it off took all of half an hour. It would probably take me that long to drag the compressor in here, unwind the hose, and hook up and start nailing. Gotta take down that whole setup as well. Nothing like the sure feeling you have with a screw grabbing vs the nail down method.


You could use a hammer instead of a framing gun in a bathroom too, a screw driver instead of a drill, mix mud by hand.... you get the idea. 

It all adds up day after day after day, the key word is all. 

An 1/2 hour saved on the flooring combined with 7-8 other 1/2 hours savings on other things adds up very quickly. :thumbsup:

I consider that in construction you are rarely going to trade something out that cuts a job by 50%. Your savings are always going to be small and incremental, but they all add up. With only about 6 real hours of productivity per man per day if a change is going to save an 1/2 hour, that's a no-brainer.



> Where is Angus at?
> 
> Why aren't you using Ditra?
> __________________
> ...


We use Ditra and a lot of other things, including Hardi, just depends on the job.


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## Andrew M. (May 25, 2008)

I would use my siding nailer, Bostich n66c with RS nails, a good gun for $179[Recon lokked like new], like how lightweight it is for ladder use. I think RS or Screw type would hold best on such a hard base. Roofing nails are best for a softer material. I also like the Senco screw gun with extension, they make backers type screws for it. I have used the self drilling deck screws which work well.


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> An 1/2 hour saved on the flooring combined with 7-8 other 1/2 hours savings on other things adds up very quickly. :thumbsup:
> 
> I consider that in construction you are rarely going to trade something out that cuts a job by 50%. Your savings are always going to be small and incremental, but they all add up. With only about 6 real hours of productivity per man per day if a change is going to save an 1/2 hour, that's a no-brainer.



Mike i agree on the save 1/2 hr per job is a no brainer. I question that a roofing gun/compressor combo will save you 1/2 hr over a stand-up collated screw system. I have found it the other way in fact.

Craig


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Nails are cheaper then screws.:whistling


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## NjNick (Jan 14, 2009)

I have to agree with 'five star' and 'warren' too; I feel more comfortable with screws. I just did two bathrooms at our office with 1/2 hardi and screwed it down. Maybe its just in my head, but I feel like you get a much better bite and long term stability with a screw.

But, everyone has their own methods/opinions. As for the gun, Ive only used two coils, a hitachi and ridgid. I liked the hitachi.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

NjNick said:


> But, everyone has their own methods/opinions.


My personal "method/opinion" is to follow manufacturers' instructions and industry standards.

While Hardibacker says nails are acceptable, the TTMAC (Terrazo, Tile, and Marble Association of Canada) say "galvanized screws" and no mention of nails being acceptable.

I don't know what your TCA (or whatever your thing is called in the USA) says though, so don't mind me.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Winchester said:


> My personal "method/opinion" is to follow manufacturers' instructions.


 :thumbsup:

exactly.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> exactly.


edited :whistling


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Where is Angus at?
> 
> Why aren't you using Ditra?


Sorry. I was busy grazing with the other sheep...



Winchester said:


> I don't know what your TCA (or whatever your thing is called in the USA) says though, so don't mind me.


Isn't it the TC*N*A and that would include Canada, no?


Mike is a smart guy. I don't need to "sell" him on production. Anyone that chooses to be a respectable installer, of any material, does their due diligence before spec'ing materials.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

angus242 said:


> Isn't it the TC*N*A and that would include Canada, no?


You can include whoever you want in your associations, but the TTMAC has been in Canada since 1944 and the TCA decided to add an "N" to their name in 2003.

Look at their website: *tileusa*.com 

As long as you can use something to win in an argument against a misinformed customer or warranty claim, I don't care what you use (TCA, TCNA, TCABCD). I go by the manufacturer's installation specs or the TTMAC's (whichever is greater) so I have something I can refer to if I need to "prove" something.



> Mike is a smart guy. I don't need to "sell" him on production. Anyone that chooses to be a respectable installer, of any material, does their due diligence before spec'ing materials.


 I'm sure Mike knows what he's doing, I didn't mean to drag this off topic.

I've heard good things about Hitachi and Max. I'm not happy with one of my Hitachi nailers at the moment (not a roofing nailer though), so I would recommend trying out the Max.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Winchester said:


> You can include whoever you want in your associations, but the TTMAC has been in Canada since 1944 and the TCA decided to add an "N" to their name in 2003.
> 
> Look at their website: *tileusa*.com
> 
> As long as you can use something to win in an argument against a misinformed customer or warranty claim, I don't care what you use (TCA, TCNA, TCABCD). I go by the manufacturer's installation specs or the TTMAC's (whichever is greater) so I have something I can refer to if I need to "prove" something.


I was asking. As in I didn't know. 

Now I do. 

So galvanized screws are spec'd? Does that mean alkali resistant screws are not allowed? (And I'm asking because I don't know)


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Am I missing something guys?

I talked to James Hardie Co yesterday to verify the use of nails (we were originially looking into staples - there literature mentions them, but is not exactly clear, but according to the rep I talked to, no staples)

I also called a couple local building depts just to make sure everything would pass inspections.

I guess I'm not following along, if there is an installation problem using nails?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Am I missing something guys?
> 
> I guess I'm not following along, if there is an installation problem using nails?



Well in the USA, no. You are 100% correct that galvanized nails are allowed and are regularly used.

I had no idea Canada had different standards.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

angus242 said:


> I was asking. As in I didn't know.
> 
> Now I do.


Sorry, I took it as sarcasm and got all sarcastic-y



> So galvanized screws are spec'd? Does that mean alkali resistant screws are not allowed? (And I'm asking because I don't know)


I had to look up the hardiebacker installation specs when the topic came up and corrosion-resistant nails are acceptable by teh manufacturer. However, in the TTMAC installation specs (2006 is what I've got) it says "galvanized screws." I'm assuming that that is the "minimum" and that coated screws/stainless screws and other corrosion resistant screws are acceptable, but not nails.

I could always be wrong though. It has happened maybe once before :laughing:


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

angus242 said:


> Well in the USA, no. You are 100% correct that galvanized nails are allowed and are regularly used.
> 
> I had no idea Canada had different standards.


Oh, I'm sure nails would pass all inspections here as well. I bet I could use drywall nails and nobody would even know the difference :laughing:

I'm sure I could find very good tile setters here that use nails as well.

I just think that screwing is a more fail-proof installation, and I have people who do testing and research who wrote a manual who agree with me.

However, if I was doing production work and bidding against other people in production who were all nailing, then I would probably be nailing, too. It_ is_ within manufacturer's specs. So I am not knocking anyone who does it, I just think it's worth pointing out.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Where we work galvanized nails or 'rust resistant fasteners' of any kind aren't required in the flooring areas, only in wet areas in the shower or tub surround.The wet areas fasteners get checked during drywall inspection, I believe this is in the 2006 IRC, could be the 2009, I can't keep up with which building dept is using which code book since we have about a doz to deal with, so we just default to whomever is using the most restrictive and work that way all the time.

We fasten everything using collated screws now, 2 types, one rust resistant for the wet areas and a cheaper drywall screw for everything else. 

The rust resistant screws run about $40.00 per 1000, where the galvanized nails go for about $3.00 per 1000. I'm am usually buying screws in lots of 10 buckets at a time, or about $450.00 per 10,000, the nails will run me about $35.00 for the same number. So not only am I looking at picking up productivity, but also lower material costs.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

for angus242's curiousity:

(sorry it's metric )










11 mm ~ 7/16"
13 mm ~ 1/2"
30 mm ~ 1-3/16"
203 mm ~ 8"


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Mike, I don't want to start getting off topic. However, you should be able to understand the "upgrade" philosophy of going with an uncoupling membrane over CBU.

You've just realized a menthod to reduce costs but if you really compare the 2, it's not a large cost difference. So apples to apples, CBU seems to be much cheaper, but I think it's not. CBU takes up space, is heavy to carry and needs more materials to install.

If you look at purchasing CBU per sq ft is cheaper. However, I can have a membrane delivered to my house/office/warehouse whereas I need to go pick up CBU. 
CBU is a lot heavier and therefore takes more time to transport.
CBU is much slower to fit. 
CBU is much slower to install.
CBU not only takes more thinset to install, it also takes screws/nails + the tools to cut/trim and install.

Uncoupling Membrane is much lighter.
UM is easier to transport and takes up much less space.
UM is quicker to deliver from vehicle to site (especially basements or 2nd floor locations).
UM is quick to install.
UM is cut with a utility knife.
UM uses less thinset.
UM is a superior product to CBU.

UM membrane is considered an upgrade and can be sold as such.

However, if you compare the two methods, I truly believe it's cheaper for me to install an UM. The only disadvantage is it's direct sq ft cost to CBU. But when you consider all aspects for the job, I think it comes out cheaper to install an UM. 

If you charge (for sake of argument) $1.50/sq ft to install CBU, you should be able to charge $3/sq ft for an UM. However, it will actually cost you less in the end and you'll have a superior installation. To me, it's a money/reputation maker.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Winchester said:


> for angus242's curiousity:


30MM galvanized screws. That's crazy. I've never even seen those here.

Can you get those collated up there? I can buy alkali-resistant for my Senco screw gun. Although, I haven't used that thing in 4 years.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

You don't have to sell me on Ditra, we have installed plenty of it. More lately then ever before. The cost of it is easily made up for in the saved labor time involved, plus I have a very good relationship with our local tile suppliers and get it pretty dirt cheap.

Truth be known, most of our customers eyes glaze over and they start to fall asleep when I talk to them about anything to do with better building processes. 

They are like cats. All they care about is the shiney pretty stuff. They could care less about paying extra for anything underneath the pretty stuff. Not that they won't pay for it, but they could careless. The money making in my business is selling them on a free standing $6000 tub or upgrading them from porcelain to stone.

I can always tell when a competitor has spent 2 hours trying to sell the customer on how qualified they are based on their building materials, usually it's a kerdi shower. Dead give away is the customer will specifically ask me about the shower building process, or will mention a specific building material. It's obvious somebody tried to sell themselves on it and the customer is 'checking in' with me for whatever reason they feel they are supposed to. I usually spend about 10 seconds assuring them there are many different ways to build and we build to high standards. 100% of the time the customer feels they can check that off their list and now we can get back to talking about how shiney the new faucets will be.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I've had 2 kinds of customers over the past year:
1) Worried about price
2) Worried about aesthetics. 

#1 I can upgrade because I sell it as a long term deal. I find most people in this category are upgrading (usually old tile) that is less than 10 years old. I market as a lifetime investment.

#2 I can upgrade because we never discuss the material. I just automatically add it to the cost. The only time it gets questioned is if I'm compared to other bids. I just tell them I already included premium materials to make their installation the best possible.

This is all hard to convey via text but I have pushed an over 80% close rate in the past year using only Ditra. I won't install any other way (unless I have to). 

Tile installations have become so big for me, we are considering specializing in only them.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

angus242 said:


> 30MM galvanized screws. That's crazy. I've never even seen those here.
> 
> Can you get those collated up there? I can buy alkali-resistant for my Senco screw gun. Although, I haven't used that thing in 4 years.


I don't know where I would even buy some other than ordering online.

I am sure that is a "minimum" requirement and that the newer coating technologies are considered superior.

I use deck screws.

here is an intereseting product photo when doing a search for galvanized screws in canada :laughing:


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

I use roofing nails. I've never had a problem, the thinset under the cbu is bonding it to the subfloor. 

Even with a collated (sp) screw gun, you would be saving vast amounts of time and money with a roofing nailer. I have the current Senco, works fine. If I were doing a lot of tile I'd go with the Hitachi or Max.


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

jhark123 said:


> I use roofing nails. I've never had a problem, the thinset under the cbu is bonding it to the subfloor.
> 
> Even with a collated (sp) screw gun, you would be saving vast amounts of time and money with a roofing nailer. I have the current Senco, works fine. If I were doing a lot of tile I'd go with the Hitachi or Max.


:whistling:whistling:whistlingWell I hate to admit it but I put down some underlayment today and tried out both ...... the nail gun is faster ..................like I tell my wife your right. Im wrong. Im sorry. just glad i have enough hose that i didnt have to drag the compressor inside.

Craig


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## stonelayer (Feb 21, 2009)

The only gun that we have found to give no trouble, and keep up, is dewalt.We are hanging wire lathe on a daily basis.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

I can't really add much, as Angus and I are in agreement (or collusion depending on who you ask :shifty on this one for sure.

I have stopped even offering backer as an option...I explain the benefits of Ditra, and why it is my underlayment of choice. I have yet to find a customer that must have a cbu. Now that XL is on the market there is no longer a real need to use cbu, other than as a wall surface imo.

I went this route not just because I believe in the product, but because, after a year of paying attention to real costs, I found it is also cheaper for me to install it! You have to add everything up as you say. Cbu is costlier to install, period. Fasteners, additional labor, additional time, transport, storage, etc. it ALL adds up right?

Throw in the added benefits of uncoupling, waterproofing, and zero dust...it's a no brainer imo.

All that said, when I was using cbu's, Hardie became my least favorite, and screws are superior to nails in that type of substrate. There's no getting around that. Nails will never grab in any of the cbus on the market anywhere near like screws will. Take a few up and you'll definitely agree.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Nails should be grabbing in the sub floor not the CBU. (sorry couldn't resist, but I know what you are saying)

(But also I'm a firm believer that how well nails vs screws grab measured by demoing isn't an indicator of anything) The measure of success or failure should be measured in Failed tile installations. Right?

Not pick'n at you, just adding some insight to the topic.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Five Star said:


> Im with craig, except i use the quick drive system, Roofing nails can squeak or move since there mostly smooth shank!


that's why I always use a handful of screws per sheet.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

angus242 said:


> I had no idea Canada had different standards.


If you have time to kill and want some fun, watch "holmes on homes". He's a canuck and a drama queen, but a lot of his "fixes" of hackjobs are also rarely up to code, eh? So as he goes thru w/the homeowner/camera, he surely mentions all. IMO, that's why that show's not popular in the US. It's TV so there's not much depth to it, but still interesting to watch and see how others do/have to do it...especially some of the hackjobs out there that people did. Always interesting to see.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> I talked to James Hardie Co yesterday to verify the use of nails
> ...I also called a couple local building depts just to make sure everything would pass inspections.
> 
> I guess I'm not following along, if there is an installation problem using nails?


If there is, one would think that their hardisiding wouldn't use nails either tho IIRC the "hardi gun" was the hitachi an65, which shoots longer nails than in a tile setting. I know people that have/use used the roofing guns for hardibacker, but other than one time (an65), I've not. Personal pref on my part as the studs nowadays tend to be borderline green/leafy/still having roots, so i don't trust them, tho joists are better. So for a lil extra, I glue and nail all...with some screws mixed in just for grins and giggles.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I hope 'glue' is slang for thinset.


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