# Exterior Solid Stain v Paint for Wood Siding



## Skyvorima

Wanted to help create a guide for this issue due to many misconceptions and highlight there is no universal hard rule for which product is best for your project.


1. Iron Shell Myth: Finish coats on exteriors need to negotiate the moisture and temp differences between the inside and outside of the home. A hard cured finish that does not allow the wood to properly breathe may look good from the outside but is damaging the wood by water collection and creating a cavity for mold and mildew. 

2. Is solid stain and paint the same? No. If any company markets a stain that requires priming then they are really just selling you paint. They can be made using some of the same materials but the formulas are quite different which is why stain does not need to be primed. 

There are key differences between the two products:

A. Paint requires a primer coat which puts a barrier between the wood and the paint impeding the ability of the wood to breathe.

B. Solid stain does not need primer.

C. Paint creates a fairly thick film over the wood which is why paint bubbles and peels. It does not allow the water vapor to escape so it basically explodes off the surface.

D. Stain does allow the wood to breathe much better allowing water vapor to escape much better than paint. There is a thin film but it is also more integrated into the wood because the resin value is different from paint and there is no primer coat.

E. Paint is stronger in terms of mechanical performance but in general this is moot unless your wife likes to use the siding as your face scrub. 

F. Since the stain is not a filler nor holding a thick film it cracks less than paint because it contracts with the wood instead of in contention.

G. Solid stain should not peel. If it does your product is a poser because stain should not have enough resin to bind a film thick enough that can peel off. It can chip and flake but these are small in size (maybe an inch) and sporadic. 

3. Homemade solid stain works great(!): Huge mistake. Adding a thinning agent does nothing to change the formula used to make the original paint. 

4. Which product will last longer? This is a value question versus longevity which seems to be confusing for some people. Let's say two houses are coated, one with stain, one with paint. The stain fades away in 9 years and you need to recoat. The paint peels in 12 years and needs a recoat. Between the two projects, the stained house can be completed in the time it takes to prep the painted house and with almost half the material cost. The painted house has also created mildew issues around trim while the stained house has not, leaving the trim paint virtually untouched.

5. If your project is in a fairly dry climate and has good internal ventilation then paint would be a great choice as it will hold up longer than stain without causing the problems of trapped water and vapor. 

6. I would never apply stain over paint or vice versa because it is too risky not knowing how the resins will interact. I know some stains say they can be applied over paint but again, the risk is too high. If you cannot put it on bare wood then stick with primer/paint. If a house is seriously bubbly show the client the numbers to prove removing the paint and applying stain is definitely the cheaper long term alternative. 

7. Solid stain should fail a tape test. Since stain is designed to be malleable and not a mechanical bull it should always fail a tape test. This does not mean the product will fail to protect the siding. It only helps show how the stain is allowing the wood to breathe by not being a filler-blanket.

If you have applied solid stain in the past and it has failed it is probably due to a couple of common problems:

Applied over paint.

Applied to wood that has not been dry long enough. (I typically wait four to five days after any moisture exposure)

Used a stain that required primer, which is not really solid stain.

Applied on surfaces that contained a contaminate and usually some kind of cleaner, or the surface was not power washed at all. 

Applied to a hardwood. (always a no-no.)

Applied to smooth wood.

Conclusion:

There are several factors to consider but generally true solid stain is the better choice simply because even when it is time for a recoat it can be done with much less money than with traditional primer and paint and unlike paint it does not cause relational problems with adjoining trim and other materials. 

Another benefit I personally enjoy is the low temp application of 35 degrees. The most extreme test I did was spraying on Woodscapes in late January during a light snow. It was an east facing barn and the sun was very bright and warmed the surface very well so I sprayed it out and 7 years later still looks great. 

Look forward to suggestions.


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## hdavis

I'll get back to this when I have some more time - I'm subscribing:thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> Wanted to help create a guide for this issue due to many misconceptions and highlight there is no universal hard rule for which product is best for your project.
> 
> 
> 1. Iron Shell Myth: Finish coats on exteriors need to negotiate the moisture and temp differences between the inside and outside of the home. A hard cured finish that does not allow the wood to properly breathe may look good from the outside but is damaging the wood by water collection and creating a cavity for mold and mildew.
> 
> 2. Is solid stain and paint the same? No. If any company markets a stain that requires priming then they are really just selling you paint. They can be made using some of the same materials but the formulas are quite different which is why stain does not need to be primed.
> 
> There are key differences between the two products:
> 
> A. Paint requires a primer coat which puts a barrier between the wood and the paint impeding the ability of the wood to breathe.
> 
> B. Solid stain does not need primer.
> 
> C. Paint creates a fairly thick film over the wood which is why paint bubbles and peels. It does not allow the water vapor to escape so it basically explodes off the surface.
> 
> D. Stain does allow the wood to breathe much better allowing water vapor to escape much better than paint. There is a thin film but it is also more integrated into the wood because the resin value is different from paint and there is no primer coat.
> 
> E. Paint is stronger in terms of mechanical performance but in general this is moot unless your wife likes to use the siding as your face scrub.
> 
> F. Since the stain is not a filler nor holding a thick film it cracks less than paint because it contracts with the wood instead of in contention.
> 
> G. Solid stain should not peel. If it does your product is a poser because stain should not have enough resin to bind a film thick enough that can peel off. It can chip and flake but these are small in size (maybe an inch) and sporadic.
> 
> 3. Homemade solid stain works great(!): Huge mistake. Adding a thinning agent does nothing to change the formula used to make the original paint.
> 
> 4. Which product will last longer? This is a value question versus longevity which seems to be confusing for some people. Let's say two houses are coated, one with stain, one with paint. The stain fades away in 9 years and you need to recoat. The paint peels in 12 years and needs a recoat. Between the two projects, the stained house can be completed in the time it takes to prep the painted house and with almost half the material cost. The painted house has also created mildew issues around trim while the stained house has not, leaving the trim paint virtually untouched.
> 
> 5. If your project is in a fairly dry climate and has good internal ventilation then paint would be a great choice as it will hold up longer than stain without causing the problems of trapped water and vapor.
> 
> 6. I would never apply stain over paint or vice versa because it is too risky not knowing how the resins will interact. I know some stains say they can be applied over paint but again, the risk is too high. If you cannot put it on bare wood then stick with primer/paint. If a house is seriously bubbly show the client the numbers to prove removing the paint and applying stain is definitely the cheaper long term alternative.
> 
> 7. Solid stain should fail a tape test. Since stain is designed to be malleable and not a mechanical bull it should always fail a tape test. This does not mean the product will fail to protect the siding. It only helps show how the stain is allowing the wood to breathe by not being a filler-blanket.
> 
> If you have applied solid stain in the past and it has failed it is probably due to a couple of common problems:
> 
> Applied over paint.
> 
> Applied to wood that has not been dry long enough. (I typically wait four to five days after any moisture exposure)
> 
> Used a stain that required primer, which is not really solid stain.
> 
> Applied on surfaces that contained a contaminate and usually some kind of cleaner, or the surface was not power washed at all.
> 
> Applied to a hardwood. (always a no-no.)
> 
> Applied to smooth wood.
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> There are several factors to consider but generally true solid stain is the better choice simply because even when it is time for a recoat it can be done with much less money than with traditional primer and paint and unlike paint it does not cause relational problems with adjoining trim and other materials.
> 
> Another benefit I personally enjoy is the low temp application of 35 degrees. The most extreme test I did was spraying on Woodscapes in late January during a light snow. It was an east facing barn and the sun was very bright and warmed the surface very well so I sprayed it out and 7 years later still looks great.
> 
> Look forward to suggestions.


Sounds like you got it all figured out and have no room for any real suggestions or differing opinions. That is evident from the precious thread.


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## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> Sounds like you got it all figured out and have no room for any real suggestions or differing opinions. That is evident from the precious thread.


Surely professional painters can contribute with their empirical evidence.


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## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> Surely professional painters can contribute with their empirical evidence.


But when you start with fact and opinion mixed, we have to get that cleared up first.


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## avenge

This just made me realize I don't give a **** since 99.9% of my work is interior. But the next time I get a call for an exterior paint job I'll be sure to tell them the whole job has to be stripped and stained. And I guess I'll be filing a lawsuit against Cabot for selling me primer for under solid stains since that's just not possible.


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## TNTRenovate

avenge said:


> This just made me realize I don't give a **** since 99.9% of my work is interior. But the next time I get a call for an exterior paint job I'll be sure to tell them the whole job has to be stripped and stained. And I guess I'll be filing a lawsuit against Cabot for selling me primer for under solid stains since that's just not possible.


It wasn't stain...didn't you read the OP.


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## shesbros

Are we talking latex or oil? 

A few things. Every exterior latex stain is essentially paint. Period. Anything that forms a film is basically a paint.

If you mean oil stain, I hope the surface is beaten to death with a pressure washer and dry as he'll. Otherwise there will be drying, flashing, caulking and mildew problems almost immediately. Don't get me started on what the VOC laws have done to oil products.

There are a lot of generalities in the op that are misleading and wrong. I've seen oil stiain peel, I've seen latex paint last 20 years. 

When you say "real" oil stain you mean a real long oil. Hasn't been available in 15 years.

Sickkens is the only one left that's even close.

I would like to know specifically which products you are referring to. 

Given you wrote that entire post without mentioning a vehicle raises more than a few eyebrows.


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## avenge

He's probably too young to have ever used exterior oil stain. Too bad I can't give him some creosote to test.


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## jb4211

hdavis said:


> I'll get back to this when I have some more time - I'm subscribing:thumbsup:


Me too


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## Skyvorima

avenge said:


> This just made me realize I don't give a **** since 99.9% of my work is interior. But the next time I get a call for an exterior paint job I'll be sure to tell them the whole job has to be stripped and stained. And I guess I'll be filing a lawsuit against Cabot for selling me primer for under solid stains since that's just not possible.


Do you realize Cabot product you are referencing is a stain? There are stain primers used for tannin bleed but they are not traditional primers and nobody said the whole exterior had to be stripped as I clearly laid out options. 

You guys need to find a new gynecologist.


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## Skyvorima

shesbros said:


> Are we talking latex or oil?
> 
> A few things. Every exterior latex stain is essentially paint. Period. Anything that forms a film is basically a paint.
> 
> If you mean oil stain, I hope the surface is beaten to death with a pressure washer and dry as he'll. Otherwise there will be drying, flashing, caulking and mildew problems almost immediately. Don't get me started on what the VOC laws have done to oil products.
> 
> There are a lot of generalities in the op that are misleading and wrong. I've seen oil stiain peel, I've seen latex paint last 20 years.
> 
> When you say "real" oil stain you mean a real long oil. Hasn't been available in 15 years.
> 
> Sickkens is the only one left that's even close.
> 
> I would like to know specifically which products you are referring to.
> 
> Given you wrote that entire post without mentioning a vehicle raises more than a few eyebrows.


Given you had to ask if this was about water based or oil stains that raises several eyebrows. 

I never said paint wont last 20 years and I never said stain is always better than paint. 

Water based stains have a much lower level of resin which is why they do not need a primer, why they do not fill in gaps like paint, why they do not peel like paint, why they do not form a film like paint, why they allow wood to breathe better than paint, and why when it is time for a recoat there is very little prep involved compared to paint. 

Where did I say "real oil stain?"

If you saw oil stain peel it is probably because it never had the chance to cure due to wrong application. Once oil is cured it chips, doesn't peel. Latex peels because....well...it is latex and plastics are quite malleable.

So far you have not pointed out anything false claim in the OP. If I made a false claim then state why. These responses of simply not liking it wont fly.


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## Skyvorima

avenge said:


> He's probably too young to have ever used exterior oil stain. Too bad I can't give him some creosote to test.


I have some creosote in the garage. Not quite legal but it is a nice museum piece. 

I would only use exterior oil stain on a hardwood. Instead of making assumptions about posters it may be more helpful to actually respond to the post and what was actually posted instead of looking for ways to complain.


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## hdavis

Skyvorima said:


> Wanted to help create a guide for this issue due to many misconceptions and highlight there is no universal hard rule for which product is best for your project.
> 
> 
> 1. Iron Shell Myth: Finish coats on exteriors need to negotiate the moisture and temp differences between the inside and outside of the home. A hard cured finish that does not allow the wood to properly breathe may look good from the outside but is damaging the wood by water collection and creating a cavity for mold and mildew.


I agree there is no hard rule for which product is best for every project. On to 1):

Areas that have routine water exposure and poor dying conditions may perfoprma very poorly with Woodscapes acrylic stain. Moisture content in the wood spikes during the exposure to water, and due to poor drying conditions, the moisture level may not come down fast enough to prevent rot. This is more than theoretical - I have some acrylic stained boards outside that I tore out with exactly this problem I'm saving to test different preservation / consolidation techniques. Alkyds, urethanes, and epoxies will keep the moisture content down in these situations, but they won't dry well to the outside.


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## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> I agree there is no hard rule for which product is best for every project. On to 1):
> 
> Areas that have routine water exposure and poor dying conditions may perfoprma very poorly with Woodscapes acrylic stain. Moisture content in the wood spikes during the exposure to water, and due to poor drying conditions, the moisture level may not come down fast enough to prevent rot. This is more than theoretical - I have some acrylic stained boards outside that I tore out with exactly this problem I'm saving to test different preservation / consolidation techniques. Alkyds, urethanes, and epoxies will keep the moisture content down in these situations, but they won't dry well to the outside.


My experience has been the stain works well in these areas (on softwood only) so long as it was correctly applied and allowed to cure. The stain allows for much more air movement than paint so instead of the moisture getting trapped between the wood and the paint it allows it to escape preventing the topcoat from being pushed out.

This is all kind of tough since I cannot see your examples and know all the details but I do know if siding is constantly always wet to some degree then any topcoat is moot because the problem lies with the ventilation of the house.


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## hdavis

Skyvorima said:


> A. Paint requires a primer coat which puts a barrier between the wood and the paint impeding the ability of the wood to breathe.
> 
> B. Solid stain does not need primer.
> 
> C. Paint creates a fairly thick film over the wood which is why paint bubbles and peels. It does not allow the water vapor to escape so it basically explodes off the surface.
> 
> D. Stain does allow the wood to breathe much better allowing water vapor to escape much better than paint. There is a thin film but it is also more integrated into the wood because the resin value is different from paint and there is no primer coat.


I'll use SW acrylic Woodscapes and SW Superpaint for the purposes of commenting, but I'm not saying either are the best in their coating class.

Both the stain and paint dry to similar mil thicknesses. The stain does use a different mix of polymer lengths, as well as a ~2X larger amount of VOCs. On the right substrate with the right prep, either can be used with no primer with good results (I've used both of these products with no primer). On the wrong surface, they both need primer or they will both peel.

Permeability of the acrylic polymer would be in the same ball park for both these coatings. The fillers, however, are not permeable at all. Solid tints aren't permeable either, but that isn't much of an issue in most cases. Permeability of the dried film is pretty much set by the fillers / tint. If you used flake aluminum for the filler in a stain, it would have horrible permeability. 

On to penetration / surface consolidation. The shorter chain acrylic polymer with higher VOCs would be expected to give better penetration into the wood compared to the acrylic paint. I haven't measured it, but my observations make me think this does occur. The greater the penetration, the better it is bonded to the wood, making it more difficult for it to flake off the surface. 

Acrylics, however, don't penetrate as well or consolidate the surface as well as a traditional oil based primers. Here. I'm talking about the old, slow drying primers from back in the 70s, for instance. This is an advantage on a heavily weathered surface, where you may have significant degradation of the wood fibers. Putting acrylic paint on that (no primer), only the surface fibers get locked into the coating, and these are relatively easily separated from the underlying fibers. That will blow off the wall pretty easily. Solid stains penetrate more, so they won't blow off the wall as easily, but unless they penetrate enough to get past the degraded fibers, they still blow off the wall. In either of these situations, the next better thing to do is use an oil based primer. I used to use A100 oil based primer for this. Adhesion was better, but still wasn't as good as the 70s oil based primers. Those were runny, very low filler, slower drying and penetrated very well. Essentially, these were used as primer / sealers.

Coating breathability on an old house is somewhat overrated. They were painted with oil paints for 100-200 years without a breathability problem. Typically, moisture / drying issues in these buildings are caused by poorly thought out retrofits, heating system changes, and poor maintenance. In dealing with an old house that has blown in insulation retrofitted, drying is seriously impaired in all directions, so keeping moisture levels down on the inside and keeping exterior water from entering the wall system is my preferred approach, otherwise you're begging for rot issues somewhere in the wall system. Using a vapor permeable coating on the exterior to allow significant drying to the outside just may not be a good way to compensate for other problems.


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## hdavis

Skyvorima said:


> My experience has been the stain works well in these areas (on softwood only) so long as it was correctly applied and allowed to cure. The stain allows for much more air movement than paint so instead of the moisture getting trapped between the wood and the paint it allows it to escape preventing the topcoat from being pushed out.



There's a reason why acrylics aren't used on wooden skiffs, canoes, kayaks, just to give an extreme example. Prep it all you want, let the acrylic stain or paint cure all you want. Then put it in the water for a few hours, take it back out for a while, put it back in, etc. You get the idea. Unless the wood is rot resistant to begin with, it WILL rot. There are two different things involved - how vapor permeable the film is, and how fast liquid water will travel through it. If the vapor permeability can't keep up with the load you get from liquid water exposure, it's doomed. Same thing comes into play with house wraps - that's why looking at the two numbers (not just vapor permeability) is important. 

The correct way to apply acrylic stain or paint in those situations is dump it on the ground.


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## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> There's a reason why acrylics aren't used on wooden skiffs, canoes, kayaks, just to give an extreme example. Prep it all you want, let the acrylic stain or paint cure all you want. Then put it in the water for a few hours, take it back out for a while, put it back in, etc. You get the idea. Unless the wood is rot resistant to begin with, it WILL rot. There are two different things involved - how vapor permeable the film is, and how fast liquid water will travel through it. If the vapor permeability can't keep up with the load you get from liquid water exposure, it's doomed. Same thing comes into play with house wraps - that's why looking at the two numbers (not just vapor permeability) is important.
> 
> The correct way to apply acrylic stain or paint in those situations is dump it on the ground.


For the skiffs, etc the whole idea is to prevent any transfer of water and Im not sure how those examples are compatible with this discussion as the purpose of topcoats on wood siding is to allow the wood to breathe.

For solid stains there is little film compared to paint which is why it allows the wood to breathe better and allow vapor to pass through. This all of course is based on the assumption the house has the proper wrap/rain screen, etc. Topcoats can never be used as a problem solver regarding structure ventilation.


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## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> I'll use SW acrylic Woodscapes and SW Superpaint for the purposes of commenting, but I'm not saying either are the best in their coating class.
> 
> Both the stain and paint dry to similar mil thicknesses. The stain does use a different mix of polymer lengths, as well as a ~2X larger amount of VOCs. On the right substrate with the right prep, either can be used with no primer with good results (I've used both of these products with no primer). On the wrong surface, they both need primer or they will both peel.
> 
> Permeability of the acrylic polymer would be in the same ball park for both these coatings. The fillers, however, are not permeable at all. Solid tints aren't permeable either, but that isn't much of an issue in most cases. Permeability of the dried film is pretty much set by the fillers / tint. If you used flake aluminum for the filler in a stain, it would have horrible permeability.
> 
> On to penetration / surface consolidation. The shorter chain acrylic polymer with higher VOCs would be expected to give better penetration into the wood compared to the acrylic paint. I haven't measured it, but my observations make me think this does occur. The greater the penetration, the better it is bonded to the wood, making it more difficult for it to flake off the surface.
> 
> Acrylics, however, don't penetrate as well or consolidate the surface as well as a traditional oil based primers. Here. I'm talking about the old, slow drying primers from back in the 70s, for instance. This is an advantage on a heavily weathered surface, where you may have significant degradation of the wood fibers. Putting acrylic paint on that (no primer), only the surface fibers get locked into the coating, and these are relatively easily separated from the underlying fibers. That will blow off the wall pretty easily. Solid stains penetrate more, so they won't blow off the wall as easily, but unless they penetrate enough to get past the degraded fibers, they still blow off the wall. In either of these situations, the next better thing to do is use an oil based primer. I used to use A100 oil based primer for this. Adhesion was better, but still wasn't as good as the 70s oil based primers. Those were runny, very low filler, slower drying and penetrated very well. Essentially, these were used as primer / sealers.
> 
> Coating breathability on an old house is somewhat overrated. They were painted with oil paints for 100-200 years without a breathability problem. Typically, moisture / drying issues in these buildings are caused by poorly thought out retrofits, heating system changes, and poor maintenance. In dealing with an old house that has blown in insulation retrofitted, drying is seriously impaired in all directions, so keeping moisture levels down on the inside and keeping exterior water from entering the wall system is my preferred approach, otherwise you're begging for rot issues somewhere in the wall system. Using a vapor permeable coating on the exterior to allow significant drying to the outside just may not be a good way to compensate for other problems.


Superpaint is ok but I rarely use that for trim or anything else and I would never apply paint w/o a primer as Ive never seen it succeed.

Older homes were constructed with higher quality materials and craftsmanship which allowed for greater room in choosing a topcoat because there was not as much vapor passing in such large areas. If people ask about buying a house I always recommend looking for one built prior to 1970 because even if deleading is necessary the long term maintenance cost will be cheaper.


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## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> You guys need to find a new gynecologist.


I don't think you realize it, but you embarrass yourself when you say things like this.


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## hdavis

Skyvorima said:


> as the purpose of topcoats on wood siding is to allow the wood to breathe..


Wrong - besides any decorative purpose, the primary purpose of all these coatings is to protect the wood. It's a necessary performance criteria. That includes protecting it from conditions that could cause rot.



Skyvorima said:


> For solid stains there is little film compared to paint


This is exactly incorrect. Check the dry film mil thickness for the Superpaint and the Woodscapes - they're both right there.


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## avenge

Skyvorima said:


> You guys need to find a new gynecologist.


Don't know, I think I should wait until you post your expertise in that area.


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## EricBrancard

Skyvorima said:


> Older homes were constructed with higher quality materials and craftsmanship which allowed for greater room in choosing a topcoat because there was not as much vapor passing in such large areas. If people ask about buying a house I always recommend looking for one built prior to 1970 because even if deleading is necessary the long term maintenance cost will be cheaper.


I'm going to say that's a blanket statement that isn't really true. 

Not understanding how things work as a system is what causes problems. Old houses were leaky, new houses are tighter. But, you can't just do everything the same when you tighten up a house. That's where the problems come in. I would take a brand new house, built correctly, over a pre 1970 home any day.


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## hdavis

Some days I think a cave would be better - only have to repair and paint the front door, and they're air tight...


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## jb4211

A real Man Cave


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## hdavis

I'm thinking this is a dead thread...


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## CarpenterSFO

SmartConstruct now works for a stain company and has a new login id?


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## hdavis

CarpenterSFO said:


> SmartConstruct now works for a stain company and has a new login id?


I must have missed that one...


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## shesbros

You wanted it you got it.



Skyvorima said:


> Wanted to help create a guide for this issue due to many misconceptions and highlight there is no universal hard rule for which product is best for your project.
> 
> First off, true there is no universal hard rule, but you are full of misconceptions. First is that "Stain" is what everyone assumes stain is. Most people think when you say stain you mean an old semitransparent or solid oil. Something that penetrates the wood, gives it a drink of oil, dyes it in color, repels water and slowly fades away. This is only true of an alkyd product. Once you form a film (and even your best latex stain does that) it is actually a paint. So the mere idea that latex stain is a stain is a misconception. Once you start discussing mil thickness its a paint baby.
> 
> 
> 1. Iron Shell Myth: Finish coats on exteriors need to negotiate the moisture and temp differences between the inside and outside of the home. No the insulation and building envelope does that. _The paint protects the wood and allows upwards of 2 gallons of water vapor to leave the home every day. Even the old oils. _ A hard cured finish that does not allow the wood to properly breathe may look good from the outside but is damaging the wood by water collection and creating a cavity for mold and mildew. _Wrong, even the old oil lead breathes._
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Is solid stain and paint the same? No. _Almost _If any company markets a stain that requires priming then they are really just selling you paint. _Kind of. However any latex product is really closer to a paint than it is a stain so calling any latex product a stain is inherently disingenuous. _They can be made using some of the same materials but the formulas are quite different _Not really different enough to matter. Especially when 2 coats is involved. Where 2 coats of a latex stain is pretty much the same as 1 coat of a flat latex housepaint. _which is why stain does not need to be primed.
> 
> There are key differences between the two products:
> 
> A. Paint requires a primer coat which puts a barrier between the wood and the paint impeding the ability of the wood to breathe. _Nope. Actually, the oil primer you don't recommend is closer to the stain you are insinuating than the the latex stain you are recommending. _
> 
> B. Solid stain does not need primer. _Over bare wood? Oil No Latex absolutely.
> _
> 
> C. Paint creates a fairly thick film over the wood which is why paint bubbles and peels. It does not allow the water vapor to escape so it basically explodes off the surface. _No that's due to lack of adhesion. In some more extreme moisture conditions this may be true. However for most run of the mill homes this is not the case. This is the same as the "paint peels stain doesn't argument. That held up 20 years ago. _
> 
> D. Stain does allow the wood to breathe much better allowing water vapor to escape much better than paint. There is a thin film but it is also more integrated into the wood because the resin value is different from paint and there is no primer coat. _This is more due to surface tension as a result of mill thickness and has everything to do with the preparation of the substrate and the adhesion of subsequent coats rather than the nature of the stain itself. Which if it is a latex product is basically a thinned down flat paint._
> 
> E. Paint is stronger in terms of mechanical performance but in general this is moot unless your wife likes to use the siding as your face scrub. _The difference is the amount of solids left on the surface._
> 
> F. Since the stain is not a filler nor holding a thick film it cracks less than paint because it contracts with the wood instead of in contention. _Again mill thickness only. This "advantage" disappears with a second coat._
> 
> G. Solid stain should not peel._It does_ If it does your product is a poser because stain should not have enough resin to bind a film thick enough that can peel off. _This is only true of the old oils which haven't been available for 10-15 years. _It can chip and flake but these are small in size (maybe an inch) and sporadic. _Again surface preparation and adhesion. But then again if if forms a film aren't we talking at its base....Paint?_
> 
> 3. Homemade solid stain works great(!): Huge mistake. Adding a thinning agent does nothing to change the formula used to make the original paint. _Of course it changes the formula...you are changing the product. If I add 3 gallons of water to 5 gallons of latex stain is it the same thing???? No. It depends on what you are doing and what you are adding. You can take the new Sikkens, or Superdeck or any other company that still makes an Alkyd solid stain, and add thinner, penetrol and turpentine and come up with something like what you are trying to represent. You just have to add enough linseed oil and solvent to counteract the additional calcium chloride and lack of penetrating slow drying agents.. _
> 
> 4. Which product will last longer? This is a value question versus longevity which seems to be confusing for some people. Let's say two houses are coated, one with stain, one with paint. The stain fades away in 9 years and you need to recoat. The paint peels in 12 years and needs a recoat. Between the two projects, the stained house can be completed in the time it takes to prep the painted house and with almost half the material cost. The painted house has also created mildew issues around trim while the stained house has not, leaving the trim paint virtually untouched. _I agree it depends on the situation and the project._
> 
> 5. If your project is in a fairly dry climate and has good internal ventilation then paint would be a great choice as it will hold up longer than stain without causing the problems of trapped water and vapor. _Unless there is an extreme moisture problem there will be no trapped water vapor. If there is, paint/stain is the least of your problems._
> 
> 6. I would never apply stain over paint or vice versa because it is too risky not knowing how the resins will interact.I know some stains say they can be applied over paint but again, the risk is too high. If you cannot put it on bare wood then stick with primer/paint. _This comes down to the oil vs latex discussion. You can paint over stain and actually vice versa. Remember latex on latex is usually ok. It is a matter of adhesion._If a house is seriously bubbly _Why is it bubbly? I have never seen a job where "bad paint" was the culprit. Poor prep, yes, inner coat adhesion problems, yes, mill glaze yes but paint doesn't peel only because its paint. Latex stain will peel because of all 3 problems. Usually removing all the coating will solve the problem however after doing that a coat of oil primer and a coat of paint is the superior system._show the client the numbers to prove removing the paint and applying stain is definitely the cheaper long term alternative.
> 
> 7. Solid stain should fail a tape test. Since stain is designed to be malleable and not a mechanical bull it should always fail a tape test. This does not mean the product will fail to protect the siding. It only helps show how the stain is allowing the wood to breathe by not being a filler-blanket._Depends on the stain. Solid color latex stain, Ben Moore Aurborcoat, Cabot PROVT, Woodscapes, Stormstain, All Latex products if properly applied and allowed to cure should not fail the tape test. Solid oil will always leave pigment on the tape. If your latex stain is failing hte tape test then you should have primed. You are relying on a latex product to do too much in one coat. _
> 
> If you have applied solid stain in the past and it has failed it is probably due to a couple of common problems:
> 
> Applied over paint. _Yes if its oil. If its latex its because the surface was glossy._
> 
> Applied to wood that has not been dry long enough. _Maybe but doubtful. Usually 2-5 days is more than enough time. Any longer than that given good weather, the coating is not thte problem._(I typically wait four to five days after any moisture exposure)
> 
> Used a stain that required primer, which is not really solid stain._ Any latex product in my opinion should not be appled to raw wood._
> 
> Applied on surfaces that contained a contaminate and usually some kind of cleaner, or the surface was not power washed at all. _again very rare_
> 
> Applied to a hardwood. (always a no-no.) _But then how does one stain a oak floor????_
> 
> Applied to smooth wood. _By this of course you mean mill glaze right???_
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> There are several factors to consider but generally true solid stain is the better choice simply because even when it is time for a recoat it can be done with much less money than with traditional primer and paint and unlike paint it does not cause relational problems with adjoining trim and other materials. _I have no idea what that means._
> 
> Another benefit I personally enjoy is the low temp application of 35 degrees. _Most latex paints will now go down to 35. Hmm I wonder how on earth they got the latex stains down that low? Unless of course you are talking about an Oil product._The most extreme test I did was spraying on Woodscapes in late January during a light snow. It was an east facing barn and the sun was very bright and warmed the surface very well so I sprayed it out and 7 years later still looks great. _until I hit it with a powerwasher and it all came off. _
> 
> Look forward to suggestions.



_Last but not least and this may lose me some friends on this site. I have never met a guy up here in New England that does real quality work (residential) who's main supplier was Sherwin Williams. Not ever. Not once. I used the woodscapes twice in 20 years. Each time vowing never to use it again.
_


----------



## shesbros

Skyvorima said:


> Superpaint is ok but I rarely use that for trim or anything else and I would never apply paint w/o a primer as Ive never seen it succeed.
> 
> Older homes were constructed with higher quality materials and craftsmanship _Maybe sometimes kinda sorta. The old growth pine is definitely better. Or are you one of those guys that is going to try to explain to me that a properly glazed window with a triple trac storm in good working order etc...etc...etc..._
> 
> 
> which allowed for greater room in choosing a topcoat because there was not as much vapor passing in such large areas. _You can't be serious. As in seriously you just didn't say that. As in a house built in the 1800's has an AOK building envelope? As in there isn't tons of air, moisture, rapid changes in heat and humidity going through all the walls at all times? Not to mention the dirt floor, steam heat, no bathroom vents, 3 layers of roof shingles, no attic vents or insulation, and so on. The kind of extremes that causes the old Alkyd and Linseed oil Lead to Alligator and crack? As in Hollow walls and tar paper wrap if you are lucky. Yep. No moisture going through the walls there. _
> 
> 
> If people ask about buying a house I always recommend looking for one built prior to 1970 because even if deleading is necessary the long term maintenance cost will be cheaper._Assuming it has remained untouched since the Johnson Administration. _



Wow...Just wow.


----------



## TNTRenovate

EricBrancard said:


> I'm going to say that's a blanket statement that isn't really true.
> 
> Not understanding how things work as a system is what causes problems. Old houses were leaky, new houses are tighter. But, you can't just do everything the same when you tighten up a house. That's where the problems come in. I would take a brand new house, built correctly, over a pre 1970 home any day.


Agreed.

Cast iron drains versus PVC? I'll take PVC. Copper supply lines versus galvanized? Clothe insulated writing versus conduit...no brainer. Ancient HVAC systems. Lead. Asbestos. There are just too many things to list that cause a pre 1970 home to be more of a maintenance headache/nightmarr. Aluminum Windows. Crappy insulation or no insulation... the list is endless. 

Gotta be one if the dumbest things I have ever heard, tell someone that buying a pre 1970 home is better.


----------



## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> Wrong - besides any decorative purpose, the primary purpose of all these coatings is to protect the wood. It's a necessary performance criteria. That includes protecting it from conditions that could cause rot.


Allowing the wood to breathe IS what protects the wood. If the topcoat does not allow vapor to pass trapping moisture between the topcoat and wood, what happens to the wood? It rots.

I will post a couple of pics to demonstrate this principle.

All wood has a water content so it all needs to breathe.





> This is exactly incorrect. Check the dry film mil thickness for the Superpaint and the Woodscapes - they're both right there.


When you add up the film from primer and two coats of paint, how does that compare to two coats of solid stain? More importantly, since the formulas are different you could have a thicker mil of stain than paint and it would still allow the wood to breathe better. To be more specific, when using "film" in this context I am speaking about the strength of the barrier between the wood and outside air. 

The mil thickness variable is more noticeable on siding such as dry cedar shakes versus clapboards.


----------



## Skyvorima

shesbros said:


> You wanted it you got it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Last but not least and this may lose me some friends on this site. I have never met a guy up here in New England that does real quality work (residential) who's main supplier was Sherwin Williams. Not ever. Not once. I used the woodscapes twice in 20 years. Each time vowing never to use it again.
> _


More likely than not the problem was with the operator and not the product. I also never said SW was my main supplier. I simply prefer Woodscapes for siding. Ive already posted proven pics of Woodscapes on a building less than a quarter mile from the Atlantic that I stained over 8 years ago and it has not been touched since. It is not even close to needing a new topcoat.


----------



## Skyvorima

shesbros said:


> Wow...Just wow.


Should have been apparent I was referencing an older house that had been properly maintained. But if creating strawmen is the best that can be done in response I understand.


----------



## Skyvorima

EricBrancard said:


> I'm going to say that's a blanket statement that isn't really true.
> 
> Not understanding how things work as a system is what causes problems. Old houses were leaky, new houses are tighter. But, you can't just do everything the same when you tighten up a house. That's where the problems come in. I would take a brand new house, built correctly, over a pre 1970 home any day.


The major point is that most new houses are not built correctly. Older homes that have been maintained requires less maintenance than the newer homes due to overall quality. In my experience in the Boston/Cape Cod areas over 70% of interior repairs are being done on homes built after 1970. The problems are not endemic to any one area as it comes from leaking roofs, windows, doors, interior/exterior mold/mildew areas, topcoats failing, inappropriate use of silicone, wrong housewraps, etc. 

Maybe it is different in other parts of the country but the older houses around here are more solid and need fewer cosmetic repairs. One aspect that is definitely different is the difference between inside/outside temps. Older homes stayed closer to temp with the outside air due to no central air/heat systems and people just dealt with 90 degree temps and did not heat every corner of their home to 80 degrees in the winter. The newer homes around here are just unbelievable. While working on new homes in Marina Bay the carpentry was so bad we would drop 5 tubes of caulk on the front porch alone. Within 3 years 6 homes had to have their chimneys rebuilt due to leaking. (Which gave us more work inside but still....)


----------



## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Cast iron drains versus PVC? I'll take PVC. Copper supply lines versus galvanized? Clothe insulated writing versus conduit...no brainer. Ancient HVAC systems. Lead. Asbestos. There are just too many things to list that cause a pre 1970 home to be more of a maintenance headache/nightmarr. Aluminum Windows. Crappy insulation or no insulation... the list is endless.
> 
> Gotta be one if the dumbest things I have ever heard, tell someone that buying a pre 1970 home is better.


Didn't you just point out a newer house had to have a new topcoat just five years after application? Or was that result of certain people posing as professional painters?


----------



## EricBrancard

Skyvorima said:


> The major point is that most new houses are not built correctly. Older homes that have been maintained requires less maintenance than the newer homes due to overall quality. In my experience in the Boston/Cape Cod areas over 70% of interior repairs are being done on homes built after 1970. The problems are not endemic to any one area as it comes from leaking roofs, windows, doors, interior/exterior mold/mildew areas, topcoats failing, inappropriate use of silicone, wrong housewraps, etc.
> 
> Maybe it is different in other parts of the country but the older houses around here are more solid and need fewer cosmetic repairs.


You are highlighting my point. Old houses leak like crazy which means that you aren't going to have the same cosmetic problems. When houses started tightening up, people didn't look at the home as a system, which caused problems.

Now, we are to the point where we should understand that houses don't actually need too "breathe," they need to be ventilated properly. The mechanical systems on new homes are light years ahead of those in pre 70s construction. A new home, with proper detailing in regards to insulation, air sealing and ventilation, coupled with a rain screen detail will blow away old home construction.


----------



## Skyvorima

EricBrancard said:


> You are highlighting my point. Old houses leak like crazy which means that you aren't going to have the same cosmetic problems. When houses started tightening up, people didn't look at the home as a system, which caused problems.
> 
> Now, we are to the point where we should understand that houses don't actually need too "breathe," they need to be ventilated properly. The mechanical systems on new homes are light years ahead of those in pre 70s construction. A new home, with proper detailing in regards to insulation, air sealing and ventilation, coupled with a rain screen detail will blow away old home construction.


Proper ventilation is the same as breathing. It is about the transfer of air/water vapor. There is a better understanding of ventilation but this does not translate into quality construction.

If newer homes were actually as good as some are claiming there is no way most of my work for cosmetic repairs comes from homes built after 1970. I also do deleading and the older homes are simply more solid in an overall view. 

Again, this comes down to areas because others could be working in places where the new construction is actually great quality so I can only go by my experiences and I am not extrapolating them to all areas. 

My experience is also based on Maintenance Inspections for new home buyers.


----------



## EricBrancard

Skyvorima said:


> Proper ventilation is the same as breathing. It is about the transfer of air/water vapor. There is a better understanding of ventilation but this does not translate into quality construction.
> 
> If newer homes were actually as good as some are claiming there is no way most of my work for cosmetic repairs comes from homes built after 1970. I also do deleading and the older homes are simply more solid in an overall view.
> 
> Again, this comes down to areas because others could be working in places where the new construction is actually great quality so I can only go by my experiences and I am not extrapolating them to all areas.
> 
> My experience is also based on Maintenance Inspections for new home buyers.


I think every area will have good new construction and poor new construction. It depends on the builder. Every area will also have good old construction and poor old construction. This is why blanket statements shouldn't be made.


----------



## Skyvorima

EricBrancard said:


> I think every area will have good new construction and poor new construction. It depends on the builder. Every area will also have good old construction and poor old construction. This is why blanket statements shouldn't be made.


Maybe it was misunderstood but I was talking about the towns Ive worked in and not other places. New construction in these areas have consistently been low performers.


----------



## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> Like I said he well say it was poor prep if stain fails. However, if paint fails it's just because us paint.


There are places to use paint and there are places to use stain. Hacks like you who say there really is no difference between stain and paint fail to understand because you fail to learn.


----------



## jb4211

You say you want answers!!

I want the truth!

You can't handle the truth!!


----------



## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> You keep leaving out context. What I said was that there is no difference in reference to failing. It will peel.
> 
> You just like running your mouth to feel like a big boy. Seen plenty of you guys. A lot bark but no bite.


You keep whining context to hide your ignorance. Solid stain cannot peel just like paint because it does not have the same formula. Do you even have the first clue about what is necessary in the formula for paint to actually peel? It is clear you do not understand anything about the binders.

You are a hack but not because you don't know about painting. It is only because you refuse to learn. The only one punished are the people who pay you under the false pretense they hired a professional.

You still have not showed an actual solid stain that requires primer.


----------



## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> Everyone agree this guy is going to keep pulling the deal of misstating, ignoring, name calling? He doesn't know architectural coatings, and he doesn't know building science and I'm not sure he really knows stains.
> 
> To the OP - you're totally incompetent at doing comparative testing of coatings.


Goodness this is the paradise of pansies. You completely ignored the fact you were wrong to state the mil thickness of stain proved the film was the same as paint.

You completely ignored the question about adding up the mils and more importantly, that mil thickness alone is not the measure of the film. You need to know the binders. 

Every time I prove one of your statements wrong you simply duck, whine, then make new and even more ridiculously false claims.


----------



## Skyvorima

shesbros said:


> No response to my itemized rebuttal I see. And I guess I misunderstood you were referring to all of those 60+ year old houses that have been perfectly maintained and constantly updated with windows, house wrap, insulation and an updated building envelope. You must do your work in fantasy land.
> 
> I see we have yet another in a long line of painters who are "the best" and only do high end residential.
> 
> Also clearly that fence is peeling because of paint only. Not the poor prep, painting over a dirty surface, painting over dead wood fibers, absorbing water where the coating has been beaten off with a weed wacker, and incompatible coatings.
> 
> Nope just paint peeling.
> 
> But you already knew that.


I thought your response was a joke. If you were sincere, wow. You don't know the difference in binders between paint and stain. You don't know a pressure washer can remove any topcoat from any surface. You think you can put stain over paint with no problem. You don't think solid stain can be applied directly to wood. You think adding water to paint makes it a stain because you don't know adding water does nothing to remove the binder from the original formula. I don't need to go on.

I never claimed to be the best painter but with whiners like you who do not know painting basics it is understandable why you get so defensive. 

If you look at the pic of the fence you will notice a stark absence of marks from a weedeater so that is not the problem. You don't know if the fence was clean or dirty when it was done but yet, like the weedeater thing, you just make things up.

Paint should never be used on an outside fence like this no matter how it is prepped or what paint is used. I could tell you why but Im sure you will close your eyes again. Good luck with that.


----------



## Skyvorima

jb4211 said:


> You say you want answers!!
> 
> I want the truth!
> 
> You can't handle the truth!!


JN's third best performance.


----------



## jb4211

That is one of my favorite movies because of his performance. He made that movie


----------



## Skyvorima

jb4211 said:


> That is one of my favorite movies because of his performance. He made that movie


It was a rare movie where the supporting cast pulled in strong too. The guy who played Dawson fell into the role because someone saw him as an assistant to Reiner and asked him to do a screen test. 

Hard to nail down JN's best scene but it might have been at the Gitmo breakfast.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> There are places to use paint and there are places to use stain. Hacks like you who say there really is no difference between stain and paint fail to understand because you fail to learn.


I agree, never said any different. What I said was they both will fail. Their really us no difference.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> You keep whining context to hide your ignorance. Solid stain cannot peel just like paint because it does not have the same formula. Do you even have the first clue about what is necessary in the formula for paint to actually peel? It is clear you do not understand anything about the binders.
> 
> You are a hack but not because you don't know about painting. It is only because you refuse to learn. The only one punished are the people who pay you under the false pretense they hired a professional.
> 
> You still have not showed an actual solid stain that requires primer.


Context is king. Even HDavis recognized right away. You generalized my statement in an attempt to discredit me. You keep calling me a hack. I left the name calling back in jr high. But I guess it's easy to do when you can hide behind a screen.


----------



## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> Context is king. Even HDavis recognized right away. You generalized my statement in an attempt to discredit me. You keep calling me a hack. I left the name calling back in jr high. But I guess it's easy to do when you can hide behind a screen.


Hack is not name calling. It is a description of service. 

For the fourth time: show us an actual water based solid stain that requires primer.

You keep claiming stain will peel like paint but fail to prove it and fail to explain how that is possible when the binders in the two different products cure differently. You fail to understand one is a mechanical bond while the other is more of a chemical bond.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> Hack is not name calling. It is a description of service.
> 
> For the fourth time: show us an actual water based solid stain that requires primer.
> 
> You keep claiming stain will peel like paint but fail to prove it and fail to explain how that is possible when the binders in the two different products cure differently. You fail to understand one is a mechanical bond while the other is more of a chemical bond.


I posted pics of failed stain. Boom!

Stain that was applied to new bare wood. It failed on the knots and areas that the tannins leached through. That to me would require primer to seal the tannins in.

And don't kid yourself, calling me a hack after one conversation on the internet is name calling and a bit immature, but par for the course for an internet tough guy.

It's sad that you feel the need to prove yourself worth so much so that you have to act like a complete moron. I guarantee that all you have done it's prove how much of an ignorant SOB you really are.


----------



## avenge

Skyvorima said:


> Goodness this is the paradise of pansies


Hey, can I join this paradise of pansies? Sounds like fun.


----------



## shesbros

Sky I give up. You're the [email protected]&$?(g best.


----------



## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> I posted pics of failed stain. Boom!
> 
> Stain that was applied to new bare wood. It failed on the knots and areas that the tannins leached through. That to me would require primer to seal the tannins in.
> 
> And don't kid yourself, calling me a hack after one conversation on the internet is name calling and a bit immature, but par for the course for an internet tough guy.
> 
> It's sad that you feel the need to prove yourself worth so much so that you have to act like a complete moron. I guarantee that all you have done it's prove how much of an ignorant SOB you really are.


How long was the old stain on the siding?

Did you post pics of the siding before or after it was pressure washed?

Are you ever going to refund that client the money you charged for all the priming that was not necessary? Or are you okay with deceptive billing as long as you get paid?

For the fifth time, show us these solid color stains that require primer? 

What I find disgusting about guys like you is you charge people for a professional service you cannot provide. Your fundamental lack of knowledge means the best that you can do is get lucky with a good guess.


----------



## Skyvorima

shesbros said:


> Sky I give up. You're the [email protected]&$?(g best.


Here is a light post I installed in 2008 and stained only one time. Look at the bottom and see how much of a beating it has taken from the weedeater. Then notice how none of the stain above that point is failing. 

This isn't about who is right or wrong but only the most accurate information. I clearly showed why your responses were meaningless but like hddavis who claimed oil paint cant breathe, you simply run away when proven wrong.


----------



## jb4211

I wanna see the entire light post now.


----------



## Skyvorima

jb4211 said:


> I wanna see the entire light post now.


The second pic is the entire light post. Or are you referencing a 360 degree view?


----------



## jb4211

Is that little black thing the light?


----------



## Skyvorima

jb4211 said:


> Is that little black thing the light?


That is the lower mount. I didn't think the actual fixture was relevant.


----------



## hdavis

"Solid-color stains also form a film. They look and act like thin
paints. Use a primer and two coats of stain."

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/finishline_mknaebe_2013_014.pdf


----------



## hdavis

avenge said:


> You're so freakin wrong it's becoming annoying. How long exactly have you been painting?


He said on another thread about 12 years in business.


----------



## Jmayspaint

hdavis said:


> "The
> value of finishes with regard to moisture is
> in blocking liquid water from entering. "
> 
> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/finishline_mknaebe_2013_014.pdf



That idea is consistent with what I have observed to be the most effective exterior coating system which is sealing dried lumber on all sides before construction. Of all the houses and decks that I have done, the ones that have weathered the best were done like that. Permeability is less important when liquid water is sealed out to begin with. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hdavis

Wood coatings are a very complex topic, and different things work best in different areas. One thing to note about the OP's area is the gulf current comes in close to shore at Cape Cod, and keeps the temperature relatively stable compared to many other regions, and being on the coast tends to keep the outdoor humidity more stable, but at a higher level than you'd get in Wyoming, for instance:

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USMA0068

What works well there may not work at all well in other areas.


----------



## CarpenterSFO

This looks like a great thread, but I didn't have time to read it all. Can someone tell me which is better, paint or solid stain, and why?


----------



## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> "Solid-color stains also form a film. They look and act like thin
> paints. Use a primer and two coats of stain."
> 
> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/finishline_mknaebe_2013_014.pdf


Im not even sure how it is not possible you fail to realize how embarrassed you must be.


----------



## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> Wood coatings are a very complex topic, and different things work best in different areas. One thing to note about the OP's area is the gulf current comes in close to shore at Cape Cod, and keeps the temperature relatively stable compared to many other regions, and being on the coast tends to keep the outdoor humidity more stable, but at a higher level than you'd get in Wyoming, for instance:
> 
> http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USMA0068
> 
> What works well there may not work at all well in other areas.


We have 60 degree+ temp swings throughout the year and four seasons like many other places. The challenge on the Cape, as with any other coastal area, is the amount of moisture in the area with salt.


----------



## Skyvorima

avenge said:


> You're so freakin wrong it's becoming annoying. How long exactly have you been painting?


That was quite an explanation and we are all now more enlightened. Thank you.


----------



## Skyvorima

Jmayspaint said:


> That idea is consistent with what I have observed to be the most effective exterior coating system which is sealing dried lumber on all sides before construction. Of all the houses and decks that I have done, the ones that have weathered the best were done like that. Permeability is less important when liquid water is sealed out to begin with.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Even dried lumber has water content and condensation still occurs in addition to vapor movement. A coating that impedes vapor movement too much simply destroys the wood because the moisture cannot escape, the topcoat cracks open, and bulk water has a Six Flags day.

You pointed out before siding that had been stained for years then painted seemed to hold up the best. This is because most of the water in the wood has dried out because the perms of the stain help air move creating down time that also did not kill the wood. By the time it was painted it was fully acclimated to the interior and exterior conditions and since paint has some perm it could breathe but the lack of water content no longer posed the problem of a topcoat push out.


----------



## Skyvorima

CarpenterSFO said:


> This looks like a great thread, but I didn't have time to read it all. Can someone tell me which is better, paint or solid stain, and why?


There is no universal answer. Here are the criteria to be used when making the determination:

Type of siding. If wood, what type and origin.

Climate. Temp, humidity, precipitation, ground freeze, etc.

Type of heating/cooling system in home.

Type of house wrap.

Vapor barrier or retarder?

Does the siding currently have any topcoat or is it bare?

Overall stain is by far the most economical due to easy prep, maintenance, and flexibility.


----------



## hdavis

Think you know more than the FPL experts? Here's something to ignore as well:

"
A growing body of psychology research shows that incompetence deprives people of the ability to recognize their own incompetence. To put it bluntly, dumb people are too dumb to know it.
"

http://www.livescience.com/18678-incompetent-people-ignorant.html


----------



## hdavis

CarpenterSFO said:


> This looks like a great thread, but I didn't have time to read it all. Can someone tell me which is better, paint or solid stain, and why?


depends


----------



## Skyvorima

EricBrancard said:


> Exactly, which is why they are important on tight, well insulated homes where you want the dew point to be on the outside. There are a lot of things that can't be stopped, but they sure can be controlled.
> 
> Like I said before, with a rain screen, the main path of escape is not through the siding.
> 
> I will also again point out that houses do not need to breathe. That is and always has been a misnomer.


An example of a misnomer is thinking Chicago's Windy City is weather related.

People can nitpick all day about the exact terminology but it is undeniable houses need ventilation, which is what we mean when we say they need to breathe. It is all about controlling moisture and air quality.


----------



## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> Think you know more than the FPL experts? Here's something to ignore as well:
> 
> "
> A growing body of psychology research shows that incompetence deprives people of the ability to recognize their own incompetence. To put it bluntly, dumb people are too dumb to know it.
> "
> 
> http://www.livescience.com/18678-incompetent-people-ignorant.html


I already spelled it out yesterday and frankly only hacks would put a lab rat's limited skewed dynamic above actual field work. 

Since you claimed old oil paints did not allow any air to pass it is safe to say that:

1. You do not understand these basic fundamentals

2. You HAVE to rely on lab rats tests because your field experience is lacking.

Let me break it down one more time. 

Take a bare cedar shake and draw a line down the center. On the left apply two coats of actual solid stain. On the right apply primer and two coats of paint. After a day or two go back with a razor blade and see which side you can peel without taking the wood as well. 

It is so sad hacks like you prance around even after making some of the most absurd claims. What you cited above is your crystal mirror.


----------



## EricBrancard

Skyvorima said:


> An example of a misnomer is thinking Chicago's Windy City is weather related.
> 
> People can nitpick all day about the exact terminology but it is undeniable houses need ventilation, which is what we mean when we say they need to breathe. It is all about controlling moisture and air quality.


An example of a misnomer is when people still claim that houses need to breathe. Notice none of the building science experts use this terminology and have basically stated its false. In the law enforcement profession they call that a clue. 

Since you seem to be one of the people who claims they can back up everything they say, I would think you would welcome the correction in your improper use of terminology so that you weren't perpetuating a falsehood to customers and other professionals.


----------



## avenge

CarpenterSFO said:


> This looks like a great thread, but I didn't have time to read it all. Can someone tell me which is better, paint or solid stain, and why?


That's impossible to answer because if you think you're buying stain it could be paint.:laughing:



Skyvorima said:


> That was quite an explanation and we are all now more enlightened. Thank you.


I wasn't asked for an explanation, you started the thread now it's on you to prove your claims. Now who's dodging a simple question? How long have you been painting?


----------



## Skyvorima

EricBrancard said:


> An example of a misnomer is when people still claim that houses need to breathe. Notice none of the building science experts use this terminology and have basically stated its false. In the law enforcement profession they call that a clue.
> 
> Since you seem to be one of the people who claims they can back up everything they say, I would think you would welcome the correction in your improper use of terminology so that you weren't perpetuating a falsehood to customers and other professionals.


Whether you say breathe or ventilate is irrelevant. If you know the subject matter you know the two terms are interchangeable. They mean the same thing so it is not a misnomer.

The only problem is some people may misunderstand what is meant by "breathe" or "ventilate." 

Have fun splitting those hairs.


----------



## CarpenterSFO

hdavis said:


> depends


Thanks.


----------



## Skyvorima

avenge said:


> That's impossible to answer because if you think you're buying stain it could be paint.:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't asked for an explanation, you started the thread now it's on you to prove your claims. Now who's dodging a simple question? How long have you been painting?


I have proven my claims and if people like you are doing nothing but ignoring the facts and going into tampon twisters then you should not be anywhere near the business. Ive been painting for over 12 years but that is not relevant because there are hacks on here that will say they have been painting for 20 years yet do not know basics. 

If all you have in response in more whining then your hack buddies will be in good company.


----------



## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> "Solid-color stains also form a film. They look and act like thin
> paints. Use a primer and two coats of stain."
> 
> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/finishline_mknaebe_2013_014.pdf


If you need a hands on tutorial I can drive up from the Cape. Im always willing to do volunteer work for the less fortunate.


----------



## EricBrancard

Skyvorima said:


> Whether you say breathe or ventilate is irrelevant. If you know the subject matter you know the two terms are interchangeable. They mean the same thing so it is not a misnomer.
> 
> The only problem is some people may misunderstand what is meant by "breathe" or "ventilate."
> 
> Have fun splitting those hairs.


I see. I figured someone would no humility would respond this way. 

I don't think anyone who knows the subject matter that well could possibly recommend pre '70s homes. But, what do I know? I'm just a guy who doesn't have to hide behind a mask of anonymity.


----------



## avenge

Skyvorima said:


> I have proven my claims and if people like you are doing nothing but ignoring the facts and going into tampon twisters then you should not be anywhere near the business. Ive been painting for over 12 years but that is not relevant because there are hacks on here that will say they have been painting for 20 years yet do not know basics.
> 
> If all you have in response in more whining then your hack buddies will be in good company.


WOW In 39 years I've never been called a hack, If you were standing in front of me I'd slap your silly ass.

I don't ignore facts but first they have to come from an expert, that your not. You're correct experience isn't always relevant, what you haven't learned is that everything you THINK is fact isn't always absolute fact. 

You need to stop calling people hacks when you don't have clue about them and can't back that up either. They are simply disagreeing with your expert knowledge you've gained over your long 12 year career.


----------



## Jmayspaint

Dismissing the FPL as "lab rats" is a little absurd. They have been doing long term studies both in the lab and in the field for over 100 years and are one of the most trusted sources of data in our industry. 

Here's an article concerning cedar/redwood siding and solid stain.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/finishline_mknaebe_2013_010.pdf

These type of threads can be good opportunities for us to compare or personal data and observations from different parts of the country and around the world. No matter how much experience any one of us has, we can always benefit from the experience and observations of other professionals, and gleam some important information from trusted sources like FPL. Why this needs to turn into an idiot name calling match is beyond me. 



"Those that claim to have absolute knowledge most often have none"


----------



## CarpenterSFO

Are there some situations in which solid stain is better than paint? Which situations would those be, and why? The more detail, the better. Should I prime before using solid stain? TIA.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> Im not even sure how it is not possible you fail to realize how embarrassed you must be.


Is that your go to line? You are a tool.


----------



## avenge

Jmayspaint said:


> Dismissing the FPL as "lab rats" is a little absurd. They have been doing long term studies both in the lab and in the field for over 100 years and are one of the most trusted sources of data in our industry.
> 
> Here's an article concerning cedar/redwood siding and solid stain.
> 
> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/finishline_mknaebe_2013_010.pdf
> 
> These type of threads can be good opportunities for us to compare or personal data and observations from different parts of the country and around the world. No matter how much experience any one of us has, we can always benefit from the experience and observations of other professionals, and gleam some important information from trusted sources like FPL. Why this needs to turn into an idiot name calling match is beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> "Those that claim to have absolute knowledge most often have none"


That's exactly what I've been saying, I would never say everything I THINK as fact. Even the scientist that develop these products can be wrong, it happens all the time.


----------



## TNTRenovate

avenge said:


> That's exactly what I've been saying, I would never say everything I THINK as fact. Even the scientist that develop these products can be wrong, it happens all the time.


He was pretty quick to call me a hack, tell me I needed to refund my customer money, but has been silent on the subject ever since.


----------



## hdavis

CarpenterSFO said:


> Are there some situations in which solid stain is better than paint?


Absolutely. If the two coats of acrylic solid stain adhere well enough (I know it's vague) to not use an alkyd primer, then you actually can just come back along every 6-10 years and recoat with just a power wash for prep. If you have to prime, you're right back into the whole prep hassle.

I'd consider other applications where using something like TWP100 clear would be indicated in lieu of a primer, but then those are touchier cases. The upside is some surface consolidation, better wood protection, and it doesn't have to be scraped on repaint. That can also help with extractive bleed. In SFO, I'd expect you to have problems getting the wood dry enough to use TWP100, and IIRC, it doesn't meet Cali VOC standards. I think you're stuck using solid stains no primer if the situation is good for it:

-no major extractive issues 
-the surface is not heavily degraded (a issue for any coating)
-ideally the surface is somewhat rough

It's performance in areas such as horizontal surfaces, siding close to the ground, etc, which are routinely wetted is not as good as a regular acrylic paint, but neither of them perform as well as an alkyd in the same situation. 

I've been using acrylic solid stains for 16 or so years. If you look at a house and you consider it a "problem" paint situation, then the stain is probably not the best choice, and on some it isn't worth opening the can, it just isn't going to perform at all.


----------



## shesbros

Sky
Just curious, what product would then be your best choice of shingle and trim coating for new R&R Cedar "A's" 6" exposure, Winsor 1 trim primed at all cuts. New construction 2x6, fiberglass faced insulation, Tyvek all around, full basement concrete minimum 8" above grade, forced hot air with ac, architectural 30 year shingles with 6' of ice and water from edge. Painted in June in Barnstable Ma?

What would your A+ coating system be ? Money is no object.

What would you change if the siding was switched to pre primed CVG Rustics?


----------



## Skyvorima

EricBrancard said:


> I see. I figured someone would no humility would respond this way.
> 
> I don't think anyone who knows the subject matter that well could possibly recommend pre '70s homes. But, what do I know? I'm just a guy who doesn't have to hide behind a mask of anonymity.


In the areas I work it is well known newer homes are not anywhere near the quality of older homes. You can keep splitting hairs on breathing/ventilating because they mean the same exact thing.


----------



## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> He was pretty quick to call me a hack, tell me I needed to refund my customer money, but has been silent on the subject ever since.


You wasted your client's money by priming almost the entire sidewalls. You should have used paint since you decided to use primer when it was not necessary. You actually bragged about putting primer on all the bare wood before applying the stain because you thought it NEEDED to be primed.

In case you still have not learned, the reason primer should only be used on bleed spots is because it is a filler/blocker/binder which creates a film between the wood and the stain. Stain should always have direct contact with wood for best performance. When primer is used where it is not necessary to stop tannins, you only impede the stain and reduce the life.


----------



## Skyvorima

avenge said:


> WOW In 39 years I've never been called a hack, If you were standing in front of me I'd slap your silly ass.
> 
> I don't ignore facts but first they have to come from an expert, that your not. You're correct experience isn't always relevant, what you haven't learned is that everything you THINK is fact isn't always absolute fact.
> 
> You need to stop calling people hacks when you don't have clue about them and can't back that up either. They are simply disagreeing with your expert knowledge you've gained over your long 12 year career.


I once met a guy who had been painting for 18 years. He was looking for a razor to cut the tip off the new tube of caulk. I told him caulk guns already have a cutter and he looked shocked. Was that you? (Just kidding)

Im not replacing thoughts with facts. There are some seriously ignorant people claiming to be pros and I do not have the patience for those who clearly make mistakes then run away from them and other nilly nancies who come to their rescue.


----------



## Skyvorima

shesbros said:


> Sky
> Just curious, what product would then be your best choice of shingle and trim coating for new R&R Cedar "A's" 6" exposure, Winsor 1 trim primed at all cuts. New construction 2x6, fiberglass faced insulation, Tyvek all around, full basement concrete minimum 8" above grade, forced hot air with ac, architectural 30 year shingles with 6' of ice and water from edge. Painted in June in Barnstable Ma?
> 
> What would your A+ coating system be ? Money is no object.
> 
> What would you change if the siding was switched to pre primed CVG Rustics?


First I would string up the builder and inspector for wrapping a house with tyvek then putting cedar on top. If it was a forced issue that had to receive a topcoat I would use woodscapes with additional added packs of mildewcide and make it clear the tyvek will shorten the life of the cedar. For the trim use cally, val, or duration.

What is cvg rustic? In my experience those are two completely different grades of finish. 

Preprimed timber can be tricky because the primer they typically use is a joke so not much has been sealed permitting either solid stain or paint for a topcoat. However, if the preprimed is of good quality then use a high quality paint because stain is a waste of time, or do nothing for a couple of years and then apply the stain. Since it is on the cape I would not paint the siding because it will not last that long, especially since the idiots used tyvek under cedar.


----------



## Skyvorima

Jmayspaint said:


> Dismissing the FPL as "lab rats" is a little absurd. They have been doing long term studies both in the lab and in the field for over 100 years and are one of the most trusted sources of data in our industry.
> 
> Here's an article concerning cedar/redwood siding and solid stain.
> 
> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/finishline_mknaebe_2013_010.pdf
> 
> These type of threads can be good opportunities for us to compare or personal data and observations from different parts of the country and around the world. No matter how much experience any one of us has, we can always benefit from the experience and observations of other professionals, and gleam some important information from trusted sources like FPL. Why this needs to turn into an idiot name calling match is beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> "Those that claim to have absolute knowledge most often have none"


For the fifth time, I called someone a hack as a reference to the quality of service being provided. Their own words proved as much. I haven't call anyone a name on here that I can remember.

For this one issue yes it is a joke to rely on lab tests when field work provides empirical evidence the lab cannot duplicate. FPL has its uses but they are not a universal answer form.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> You wasted your client's money by priming almost the entire sidewalls. You should have used paint since you decided to use primer when it was not necessary. You actually bragged about putting primer on all the bare wood before applying the stain because you thought it NEEDED to be primed.
> 
> In case you still have not learned, the reason primer should only be used on bleed spots is because it is a filler/blocker/binder which creates a film between the wood and the stain. Stain should always have direct contact with wood for best performance. When primer is used where it is not necessary to stop tannins, you only impede the stain and reduce the life.


1) You have no idea what I charged my client for. Again making assumptions to suite your argument and claims.

2) Those areas were problem areas. Not wanting to revisit I consulted cabot abd they recommended problem solver. I applied that over the knots that were bare and five years later, no problems.

No life was reduced and the siding looks great. Like you said, experience is a great measure if success.

3) You said that there are no universal answers, so why do you keep going to the well of you are the only one with all the solutions?


----------



## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> I once met a guy who had been painting for 18 years. He was looking for a razor to cut the tip off the new tube of caulk. I told him caulk guns already have a cutter and he looked shocked. Was that you? (Just kidding)
> 
> Im not replacing thoughts with facts. There are some seriously ignorant people claiming to be pros and I do not have the patience for those who clearly make mistakes then run away from them and other nilly nancies who come to their rescue.


Not all have cutters.


----------



## Jmayspaint

Skyvorima said:


> For the fifth time, I called someone a hack as a reference to the quality of service being provided. Their own words proved as much. I haven't call anyone a name on here that I can remember.
> 
> For this one issue yes it is a joke to rely on lab tests when field work provides empirical evidence the lab cannot duplicate. FPL has its uses but they are not a universal answer form.



So he is a hack for following the manufactures directions with regard to priming extractive woods prior to staining?

You have made it very clear that in your opinion priming for solid stain is never a good idea and will retard the performance of the stain. But that idea is not an industry standard. 

If you primed with a vapor barrier primer like Bin then yes that would always be a bad idea. I'm not sure that appropriate oil primers used under solid stain as recommended by the manufacturer impede permeability to the degree your implying.


----------



## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> 1) You have no idea what I charged my client for. Again making assumptions to suite your argument and claims.
> 
> 2) Those areas were problem areas. Not wanting to revisit I consulted cabot abd they recommended problem solver. I applied that over the knots that were bare and five years later, no problems.
> 
> No life was reduced and the siding looks great. Like you said, experience is a great measure if success.
> 
> 3) You said that there are no universal answers, so why do you keep going to the well of you are the only one with all the solutions?


The pics showed at least two sidewalls that were mostly primed. You want people to believe there was a "problem" area for over 70% of the wall? You even said you primed ALL THE BARE WOOD. At this point you are beyond help. Keep screwing people over.


----------



## Skyvorima

Jmayspaint said:


> So he is a hack for following the manufactures directions with regard to priming extractive woods prior to staining?
> 
> You have made it very clear that in your opinion priming for solid stain is never a good idea and will retard the performance of the stain. But that idea is not an industry standard.
> 
> If you primed with a vapor barrier primer like Bin then yes that would always be a bad idea. I'm not sure that appropriate oil primers used under solid stain as recommended by the manufacturer impede permeability to the degree your implying.


Try to pay attention. I said priming for tannin bleeds is useful. He primed over all bare wood according to his own words. It was only AFTER I pointed out that was wrong did he start squirming about extractives. Also, the Cabot product being referenced is actually a stain.

There is a difference between standard primer and stain primer. Cover Stain can be used as a primer under solid stain because....it is a....stain. However, it should only be used in bleed problems.


----------



## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> Not all have cutters.


Go back to the homeowners home depot diy board and stop wasting our time.


----------



## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> You implied. You said caulk guns come with cutters. That is inclusive. You made no exclusive statement. Hack


That is the fallacy of argument from silence. If I said people drown in swimming pools would that mean ALL people drown in swimming pools?

Everyone can see your little Barbie ego has been shattered so now you desperately clinging to anything.


----------



## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> Yes I do. He jumped a guy from behind and was beating his head in the ground then grabbed for the gun saying he was going to kill him.
> 
> I don't know how you pressures wash but pressure washing shouldn't peel stain. It should be used to clean the surface not strip it. I thought you pros knew that.
> 
> You are a denier. If presented with facts and evidence you deny they are real or trustworthy. Only you are trustworthy. Only your experience matters. And when really backed into a corner you just come out calling names and insults. That the hilarity here.


Now how did I know you would hold that position? It is because I knew you did not know basic facts because just like painting, you simply hack blindly away. 

It was Zimmerman who got out of his truck to chase him on foot but you want to believe the guy who ran away from Zimmerman was the aggressor.

By Zimmerman's own words his head was not being hit when he pulled the trigger and he even admitted he was not on the concrete. 

Trayvon did not have a single drop of Zimmerman's dna on his hands which makes it nearly impossible for it to have happened (one of the five ways) Zimmerman claimed.

But by far, the most ridiculous claim is that Trayvon tried to grab his gun. It was dark. Zimmerman's gun was under his coat on the BACK of his hip with an INSIDE WAISTBAND holster. 

In case you didn't notice, one of the witnesses from the trial now admits Zimmerman did racially profile and would not have taken the same actions if it was a white guy. 

People like you are just sad. Period.

Ive never denied any facts but that will not stop you from continuing to be a liar and thief. If you know anyone who wants to hire a professional painter you should help them look in the yellow pages.


----------



## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> "The largest difference between stain and paint is the former relies on a mechanical bond while the latter is chemical."
> 
> They both have chemical bonds. They both also rely on mechanical bonds, which is why you just can't grab some paint and slap it on any old smooth as glass hard wood and have it adhere very well. Conventional alkyd primer penetrates more than acrylic stain, which (at least for the SW Woodscapes vs Superpaint) penetrates more than acrylic paint.
> 
> Can't really get any where on this thread - it's stuck in a rinse and repeat cycle...


Once again you simply stick to some mythical knowledge base. The entire reason you prime before painting is so the CHEMICAL PROCESS is allowed to run its course. If you skip priming and just slap paint on the wood sucks up too much from the paint causing it to dry too quickly thus preventing the curing which is what leads to the paint falling off.

Solid stain is a mechanical bond which means the wood can suck it up as fast as it wants without damaging the cured product.

You have made an unbelievably amount of blatantly false claims but ignore them and continue on as if you are actually informed. When will you stand up?


----------



## Skyvorima

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Eh.....
> truth is......sometimes a good throwdown yields some stellar info.
> 
> I now overfloweth with technical "paint v. stain" knowledge (handy for current project).
> 
> Thank you all....
> even the OP. Especially the OP, without whom, none of this would have been possible. (you too TNT...you chit-stirring savant)
> 
> I guess it holds true. You gotta break some eggs.......or balls....


Frankly, it has been quite disturbing to see so many self professed professional painters make so many bizarre claims. Not trying to be a jerk but ive never been one for much a filter. What I see are people repeating misinformation one would receive by using google or bing, and especially on the claim there is no difference between stain and paint.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> Since you are dishonest with clients it is no surprise you would continue that MO on here. Good luck.


That's all you got? Weak!

Just avert the tough questions. Where did you hear that paints only form a mechanical bond? Where did that stack if knowledge come from?

As far as dishonest to customers you are waking a fine line if liable. I'd be very careful with throwing out these accusations. I gave them what they wanted, a long lasting finish. You just can't stand it that your hard and fast rules are not so hard and fast.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> That is the fallacy of argument from silence. If I said people drown in swimming pools would that mean ALL people drown in swimming pools?
> 
> Everyone can see your little Barbie ego has been shattered so now you desperately clinging to anything.


You changed the argument. If I said swimming pools have tile then I am implying that all swimming pools have tile.

You really need to learn the language. Seems that you are the one clinging to the fact you can't be wrong even in the things that don't matter. 

I admitted I may have went a little crazy on the primer. But it didn't hurt anything.

But I live the fact that you keep having to end your posts with a personal attack. You need to paint a picture of others, knock then down, so you feel like a big boy.

The ego issue isn't in this side if the table.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> Frankly, it has been quite disturbing to see so many self professed professional painters make so many bizarre claims. Not trying to be a jerk but ive never been one for much a filter. What I see are people repeating misinformation one would receive by using google or bing, and especially on the claim there is no difference between stain and paint.


There ya go repeating a lie. I guess you really believe if you repeat it enough it'll come true.


----------



## shanekw1

Skyvorima said:


> You are more than welcome not to parse posts just to whine. You are also more than welcome to ignore posts. But then again, if you couldn't toss a tampon fury, what would you have to say?


Not whining, simply stating that if you feel the forum is so sad and full of hacks spreading misinformation, you are free to leave.

Contractor Talk is about discussion, and discussion goes two ways. Attacking members by inferring they are hacks simply because they have a different approach than you to a situation is caustic and disruptive and, frankly, makes you sound like a know it all with his head up his ass. 

Now, you do seem to have a pretty good knowledge of paint, but your presentation puts people off. Try some civil discussion instead of attacking well respected members (or their camera or caulking gun, like really.) and calling them hacks or pansies and you may have much better luck in getting people to listen to you.


----------



## hdavis

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Eh.....
> truth is......sometimes a good throwdown yields some stellar info.
> 
> I now overfloweth with technical "paint v. stain" knowledge (handy for current project).
> 
> Thank you all....
> even the OP. Especially the OP, without whom, none of this would have been possible. (you too TNT...you chit-stirring savant)
> 
> I guess it holds true. You gotta break some eggs.......or balls....


Troublemaker:laughing:


----------



## hdavis

So, just a quick bottom line:

Super Paint - 25 yr warranty
Woodscapes - 8 year warranty

Super Paint - 0.31 Lb/Gal theoretical VOCs
Woodscapes - 0.71 Lb/Gal theoretical VOCs 

Super Paint - 4 mils wet; 1.6 mils dry 
Woodscapes- 4-8 mils wet; 1.3-2.6 mils dry

And no, there isn't some magic acrylic for one vs the other. There's a shift in the polymer chain length to slightly shorter chains for the solid stain, but the increased VOCs have a big role in getting greater penetration. Neither will penetrate cell structures, so they pretty much lay on the surface of hardwoods.

Talc is the ingredient that allows the "solid stain" to be a self cleaning paint - it accelerates the film surface degradation.


----------



## WarnerConstInc.

Hmmmmmm


----------



## hdavis

Exactly.


----------



## Skyvorima

shanekw1 said:


> Not whining, simply stating that if you feel the forum is so sad and full of hacks spreading misinformation, you are free to leave.
> 
> Contractor Talk is about discussion, and discussion goes two ways. Attacking members by inferring they are hacks simply because they have a different approach than you to a situation is caustic and disruptive and, frankly, makes you sound like a know it all with his head up his ass.
> 
> Now, you do seem to have a pretty good knowledge of paint, but your presentation puts people off. Try some civil discussion instead of attacking well respected members (or their camera or caulking gun, like really.) and calling them hacks or pansies and you may have much better luck in getting people to listen to you.


I didn't say the whole forum was sad. Just in this painting section where people are clearly more interested in egos than information. I called one guy a hack because that is exactly the service he provides since he clearly does not understand paint even though he sells himself to people as a professional. 

That was being civil.

Ironically, when others make clearly ignorant statements on painting and/or lie, and actually call people names nobody seems to mind so long as the target is shared. Pathetic.

The only people who pay are the unsuspecting homeowners who hire hacks.


----------



## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> So, just a quick bottom line:
> 
> Super Paint - 25 yr warranty
> Woodscapes - 8 year warranty
> 
> Super Paint - 0.31 Lb/Gal theoretical VOCs
> Woodscapes - 0.71 Lb/Gal theoretical VOCs
> 
> Super Paint - 4 mils wet; 1.6 mils dry
> Woodscapes- 4-8 mils wet; 1.3-2.6 mils dry
> 
> And no, there isn't some magic acrylic for one vs the other. There's a shift in the polymer chain length to slightly shorter chains for the solid stain, but the increased VOCs have a big role in getting greater penetration. Neither will penetrate cell structures, so they pretty much lay on the surface of hardwoods.
> 
> Talc is the ingredient that allows the "solid stain" to be a self cleaning paint - it accelerates the film surface degradation.


You are still stuck on the mils myth because thickness alone does not determine perms. 

You thought stain failing a tape test meant the stain would not protect the siding. I posted pics of stain 8+ years old proving that wrong and you ignored it.

You claimed oil paint did not allow the wood to breathe.

You claimed wood siding did not need to breathe and that a topcoat should make everything airtight.

Finally, here is a simple question: Is the wood siding part of the house?

When talking about a house and breathing the siding is absolutely inseparable because it is....part of the freaking house. 

Here is what is important:

How the house is breathing (ventilating) directly impacts how much vapor needs to pass through the siding. This a crucial factor in determining whether to use solid stain or paint.

Im going to have to do a sample test with pics so people can see it with their own eyes. Yes I am aware people like you will ignore it because I hurt your fragile feelings but grow up. This is all about the work. For everything else, call Dr. Phil.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> I didn't say the whole forum was sad. Just in this painting section where people are clearly more interested in egos than information. I called one guy a hack because that is exactly the service he provides since he clearly does not understand paint even though he sells himself to people as a professional.
> 
> That was being civil.
> 
> Ironically, when others make clearly ignorant statements on painting and/or lie, and actually call people names nobody seems to mind so long as the target is shared. Pathetic.
> 
> The only people who pay are the unsuspecting homeowners who hire hacks.


Again, calling me a hack because I said there is I heard there was no real difference between paint and stain without looking at the context in the conversation is just your sad execuse to call others names when it was unwarranted. 

The fact is the subject was solid stain versus paint in the context if peeling and failure. Solid stain will peel and fail like paint. I think plenty of actual facts presentef by others as well as them agreeing that they have all experienced peeling stain.

You think ventalation and breathing are interchangeable. You think all caulk guns have cutters. And when it comes to defending your verbiage you want everyone to just know what you mean. You say that real pros would have known what you meant. You make mistakes and errors and it's still everyone else fault for not understanding. Even after I clarified myself out was not good enough for you. Even when others who said they didn't read it like you did, it wasn't good enough.

So far you haven't listened to anyone yet want everyone to bite to your egotistical bent. You want everyone to accept your words abd never question. You have appointed yourself paint guru but it's obvious that like us all you have a lot to learn.

It's sad when a self appointed pro promotes ignoring manufacturer's recommendations along with organizations with much more experience in this field than they have.

I would still like you to answer the question as to who told you about chemical and mechanical bonds. Where have you gained your definitive answers that fly in the face of the wisdom of your peers?


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## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> You are still stuck on the mils myth because thickness alone does not determine perms.
> 
> You thought stain failing a tape test meant the stain would not protect the siding. I posted pics of stain 8+ years old proving that wrong and you ignored it.
> 
> You claimed oil paint did not allow the wood to breathe.
> 
> You claimed wood siding did not need to breathe and that a topcoat should make everything airtight.
> 
> Finally, here is a simple question: Is the wood siding part of the house?
> 
> When talking about a house and breathing the siding is absolutely inseparable because it is....part of the freaking house.
> 
> Here is what is important:
> 
> How the house is breathing (ventilating) directly impacts how much vapor needs to pass through the siding. This a crucial factor in determining whether to use solid stain or paint.
> 
> Im going to have to do a sample test with pics so people can see it with their own eyes. Yes I am aware people like you will ignore it because I hurt your fragile feelings but grow up. This is all about the work. For everything else, call Dr. Phil.


Why would we pay any attention to your testing? You ignore lab results. You ignore other's experiences. I will post pictures of my five year old stain job that looks like the day we stained it even though you claim I have compromised it with to much primer.

Posting a few pictures proves nothing, unless it comes from you I guess. Shanes point was that you have earned no redirect with your disrespectful ways.

My suggestion is to walk away or join the discussion. Listen to what others are saying and give then the curiosity of their experience and stop the ego. I still think it funny you keep taking about other people's egos when it is clear who had the ego.

Go back abd read the thread. It did not become hostile until you showed up.

I know...you'll insert your pansie or ego comment hear ignoring what I just said.


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## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> Again, calling me a hack because I said there is I heard there was no real difference between paint and stain without looking at the context in the conversation is just your sad execuse to call others names when it was unwarranted.
> 
> The fact is the subject was solid stain versus paint in the context if peeling and failure. Solid stain will peel and fail like paint. I think plenty of actual facts presentef by others as well as them agreeing that they have all experienced peeling stain.
> 
> You think ventalation and breathing are interchangeable. You think all caulk guns have cutters. And when it comes to defending your verbiage you want everyone to just know what you mean. You say that real pros would have known what you meant. You make mistakes and errors and it's still everyone else fault for not understanding. Even after I clarified myself out was not good enough for you. Even when others who said they didn't read it like you did, it wasn't good enough.
> 
> So far you haven't listened to anyone yet want everyone to bite to your egotistical bent. You want everyone to accept your words abd never question. You have appointed yourself paint guru but it's obvious that like us all you have a lot to learn.
> 
> It's sad when a self appointed pro promotes ignoring manufacturer's recommendations along with organizations with much more experience in this field than they have.
> 
> I would still like you to answer the question as to who told you about chemical and mechanical bonds. Where have you gained your definitive answers that fly in the face of the wisdom of your peers?


For the last time King Hack:

It is impossible for solid stain to peel like paint. They contain two completely different formulas. Stain does not have enough binder to form the film that creates the base necessary for peeling. At worst solid stain can chip in small places and this is usually due to a dirty surface where the stain cannot mechanically bond to the surface.

With paint you can peel a few inches off at a time and this is because the vinyl/latex cures to solid form through a chemical process. Stain binds to the wood, not itself.


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## hdavis

"How the house is breathing (ventilating) directly impacts how much vapor needs to pass through the siding. This a crucial factor in determining whether to use solid stain or paint."

Ventilation problems get fixed with ventilation - siding permeance won't keep it from destroying the structure. Air gaps in the siding can help, but that isn't a fix, either.


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## hdavis

"Stain does not have enough binder to form the film that creates the base necessary for peeling."

See dried film specs already posted.


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## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> For the last time King Hack:
> 
> It is impossible for solid stain to peel like paint. They contain two completely different formulas. Stain does not have enough binder to form the film that creates the base necessary for peeling. At worst solid stain can chip in small places and this is usually due to a dirty surface where the stain cannot mechanically bond to the surface.
> 
> With paint you can peel a few inches off at a time and this is because the vinyl/latex cures to solid form through a chemical process. Stain binds to the wood, not itself.


Chip...peel a real pro would have understood what I meant.


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## shesbros

Skyvorima said:


> For the last time King Hack:
> 
> It is impossible for solid stain to peel like paint. They contain two completely different formulas. Stain does not have enough binder to form the film that creates the base necessary for peeling. At worst solid stain can chip in small places and this is usually due to a dirty surface where the stain cannot mechanically bond to the surface.
> 
> With paint you can peel a few inches off at a time and this is because the vinyl/latex cures to solid form through a chemical process. Stain binds to the wood, not itself.


Impossible......impossible? I see peeling stain 3 times a week. Yes it does peel like paint it doesn't have the mil thickness but I've seen it chip, flake, bubble blister, peel, delaminates, peel in sheets and act just like latex paint. Just not as thick. So who am I supposed to believe. You or my lying eyes. You are right. You are the best and the rest of us wit a combined hundreds of years of real world experience are hacks.


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## hdavis

shesbros said:


> Impossible......impossible? I see peeling stain 3 times a week.


That's all prep...


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## Skyvorima

shesbros said:


> Impossible......impossible? I see peeling stain 3 times a week. Yes it does peel like paint it doesn't have the mil thickness but I've seen it chip, flake, bubble blister, peel, delaminates, peel in sheets and act just like latex paint. Just not as thick. So who am I supposed to believe. You or my lying eyes. You are right. You are the best and the rest of us wit a combined hundreds of years of real world experience are hacks.


How do you know what you are looking at was solid stain? Did you apply it yourself? Was it primed before stained? How many coats are on the surface? Ive already said it can chip but stain applied directly to wood cannot peel like paint. The wood has soaked a lot of it up and it does not have the binders found in paint. Now, if a hack primed the wood then put on the stain, guess what, the stain does not directly get on the wood, and more importantly, any product that was put on by hacks is expected to fail. I was talking about properly applied product.

You never did answer the question of what is "CVG Rustic." Please don't tell me that was your pathetic attempt at a trick question.


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## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> "Stain does not have enough binder to form the film that creates the base necessary for peeling."
> 
> See dried film specs already posted.


For the fifth time, mil thickness does not determine binder. But keep ignoring that like you have ignored all the ridiculously false claims you have made and ignored.


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## hdavis

All this talk of penetration and can't peel is ridiculous. Put two coats of acrylic solid stain on a smooth surface, and watch it peel off, just like paint - even Skyve knows this That's because they're film forming paints. Calling it a solid stain is marketing, not paint chemistry.

It doesn't penetrate and bond well enough with smooth wood to guarantee performance. Neither does Super Paint. 

Save the sales pitches for HOs that don't know any better - there are limited situations where solid stain buys the customer something significant, other than a cheap paint job.


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## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> How do you know what you are looking at was solid stain?
> 
> Here we go again, you are the only one that can tell. No one else has knowledge. If he can't tell then you can't tell. If that is the case then you cannot say that you have never seen stain not peel. By your own words, How do you know what you are looking at was solid stain?
> 
> Did you apply it yourself? Was it primed before stained? How many coats are on the surface?
> 
> And here is your fall back. If you any one shows you something different than what you believe you have a whole list of questions in the wings waiting as a safety net.
> 
> Ive already said it can chip but stain applied directly to wood cannot peel like paint. The wood has soaked a lot of it up and it does not have the binders found in paint. Now, if a hack primed the wood then put on the stain, guess what, the stain does not directly get on the wood, and more importantly, any product that was put on by hacks is expected to fail. I was talking about properly applied product.
> 
> Do you know what stain primer is made to do? It binds to the wood and then the stain binds to it. It is formulated to chemically and mechanically bond to each other. Properly primed it will not peel, chip or flake. I'll use one of your lines...I can post pics of a job that I had a lot of primer applied and the solid stain looks as good as it did the day it was applied.
> 
> You never did answer the question of what is "CVG Rustic." Please don't tell me that was your pathetic attempt at a trick question.


And you never answered the question where you learned about the chemical make up of paint and stain and you claims to chemical and mechanical bonds. I think that you need to start putting up or shutting up. So far HDavis is the only one that has been able to back up EVERYTHING that he has said. Still waiting for you to do the same big shot.


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## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> All this talk of penetration and can't peel is ridiculous. Put two coats of acrylic solid stain on a smooth surface, and watch it peel off, just like paint - even Skyve knows this That's because they're film forming paints. Calling it a solid stain is marketing, not paint chemistry.
> 
> It doesn't penetrate and bond well enough with smooth wood to guarantee performance. Neither does Super Paint.
> 
> Save the sales pitches for HOs that don't know any better - there are limited situations where solid stain buys the customer something significant, other than a cheap paint job.


If you don't prep the surface according to the product it will always fail. Im going to do the test with a cedar shake and post the pics. People can decide the conclusions for themselves. 

Are you still claiming wood cannot breathe through oil paint?


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## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> If you don't prep the surface according to the product it will always fail. Im going to do the test with a cedar shake and post the pics. People can decide the conclusions for themselves.
> 
> Are you still claiming wood cannot breathe through oil paint?


Still waiting for you to answer some questions. Seems to me that you are a lot of talk and lack on action. Tell us your sources for chemical and mechanical bonds.

And until you recognize other photos as evidence, why should be take any heed to yours?


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## hdavis

What's the point of cedar shakes, they let air move through them no matter what you put on them. You get real ventilation with shakes, not just a little vapor transport.


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## shesbros

CVG is clear vertical grain. The other option out of the yard is PFJ. That's primed finger jointed. The "rustic" means it is milled and primed to be installed with the rough side out.

I don't need to take an attempt at a trick question. Your narrowmindedness is embarrassing you plenty.


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## hdavis

Skyvorima said:


> You falsely claimed air could not pass through old oil paints





Skyvorima said:


> It is no wonder you cannot find a proper topcoat stain and why you think air could not pass through old oil paint.


Air, breathing, that's just goofy.


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## hdavis

Skyvorima said:


> If you don't prep the surface according to the product it will always fail.


Fresh, smooth surface, and either will fail.

Surface prep is the old standby excuse for why a product failed. Some times tht what it is, and sometimes that isn't it. Going to a pat answer doesn't require any thought.


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## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> Fresh, smooth surface, and either will fail.
> 
> Surface prep is the old standby excuse for why a product failed. Some times tht what it is, and sometimes that isn't it. Going to a pat answer doesn't require any thought.


If the surface is too smooth for solid stain then you simply do not use solid stain. 

Pointing out a product failed due to improper application is not an excuse. It's called knowing your job.


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## Skyvorima

hdavis said:


> Air, breathing, that's just goofy.


People like you are a joke because when you get busted on bs you just squirm away instead of standing up. Good luck with that.


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## hdavis

"
The differences in the significance and magnitude vapor diffusion and
air transported moisture are typically misunderstood. Air movement as
a moisture transport mechanism is typically far more important than
vapor diffusion in many (but not all) conditions. The movement of wa-
ter vapor through a 1-inch square hole as a result of a 10 Pascal air
pressure differential is 100 times greater than the movement of water
vapor as a result of vapor diffusion through a 32-square-foot sheet of
gypsum board under normal heating or cooling conditions.
"

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0412-insulations-sheathings-and-vapor-retarders


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## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> People like you are a joke because when you get busted on bs you just squirm away instead of standing up. Good luck with that.


Like I said, unlike you he had provided multiple sources to back up his claims. You on the other hand have not. You my are a fraud.


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## Skyvorima

TNTSERVICES said:


> Like I said, unlike you he had provided multiple sources to back up his claims. You on the other hand have not. You my are a fraud.


lol.....he has not had anything back him up. The link he just provided proved he was wrong about wood not being able to breathe through oil paint. It is sooooo funny you are such a hack you cannot see it when you are wrong.

Ive explained everything I have said but hacks like you keep on plugging away with your ridiculous comments and thanks for broadcasting on your website you are a hack.

Btw, how did you have time to create a website while being flooded with referrals? :thumbup:

Go back to Home depot.


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## TNTRenovate

Skyvorima said:


> lol.....he has not had anything back him up. The link he just provided proved he was wrong about wood not being able to breathe through oil paint. It is sooooo funny you are such a hack you cannot see it when you are wrong.
> 
> Ive explained everything I have said but hacks like you keep on plugging away with your ridiculous comments and thanks for broadcasting on your website you are a hack.
> 
> Btw, how did you have time to create a website while being flooded with referrals? :thumbup:
> 
> Go back to Home depot.


So you are not going to answer the question and are now completely reduced to name calling. Ya I'm the hack. Put up or shut up.


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## hdavis

If clapboards should never wind up air sealed, and shakes are never air sealed, then you can use flake aluminum epoxy paint and not have a moisture issue - both of these will ventilate because they don't present an effective air barrier. That pretty much makes the whole thread irrelevant - powder coat it, put clay on it, don't coat it at all....


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## hdavis

TNTSERVICES said:


> So you are not going to answer the question and are now completely reduced to name calling.


Reduced to name calling...


----------

