# Difference between carpenters and labourers



## Sk94 (Apr 12, 2013)

Is it like a rank process? You start off as a labourer and then 4 years time become a carpenter.

Which is easier to find work?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

All Carpenters can be laborers....

but not all Laborers can be Carpenters....


As for a job, depends how skilled you are & your attitude....:thumbup:


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## Sk94 (Apr 12, 2013)

No skill brother I'm 19, and willing to learn anything wood related


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## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

Sk94 said:


> No skill brother I'm 19, and willing to learn anything wood related


Well looks like you got some hard time to put in. Pay attention to things and then go do it yourself

You will mess up. As long as you can correct it.

Ive been a carpenter for about 4-5 years now and still push a broom every now and then


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

I've been around for over 40 years and still push a broom now & then...


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## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

griz said:


> I've been around for over 40 years and still push a broom now & then...


I take it you got your platinum broom certifaction huh


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

griz said:


> All Carpenters can be laborers....
> 
> but not all Laborers can be Carpenters....
> 
> ...


Hey, don't be volunteering me to pack lumber for you :laughing:


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

You can do a lot of planning pushing a broom. I have over 25 years and I still push a broom but I an also making a material list and a punch list at the same time


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

The only time I push a broom is when the only other option is trench digging or attic hopping. :laughing:


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## NCMCarpentry (Apr 7, 2013)

"Labourers" are just carpenters who don't have the skill and or experience to be called "Carpenters". As far as renovations and carpentry companies go.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm a business owner/ carpenter/ laborer/ shrink and occasionally taxi driver


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

In my experience, carpentry skills are usually in direct, but inverse, proportion to how much one brags about them...


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## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

ClaytonR said:


> In my experience, carpentry skills are usually in direct, but inverse, proportion to how much one brags about them...


Gotta walk the walk, not talk the talk.:thumbsup:


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## Rustbucket (May 22, 2009)

The difference is one gets told what to do, and the other does the telling. 

A "laborer" is generally considered unskilled, while a carpenter has some seat time and can generally only needs to know what the end product is to be, and knows the steps to get there. 

Not that there aren't skilled laborers out there, but generally speaking they need more supervision and direction. The important thing for a laborer to do is to show an interest and be proactive. Keep educating yourself to make the next step. If you're the one being handed a shovel every time you show up to work, finish up the digging figure out what else needs to be done. Suggest to your supervisor what needs to be done next, and see if he/she will allow you to do that. Keep building skills! After a while, your super should allow you to perform more complex tasks and start handing the shovel over to somebody else. It's the way of the world! Experience and knowledge is worth paying for. Anybody can use a shovel. 

Trust me, cleaning out crawlspaces and attics in old houses, compacting dumpsters, lugging concrete sacks, bricks, rebar, and digging trenches with a shovel and a pick gets old.


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## Young_Buck (Jul 19, 2009)

A guy who played with tools as a kid can work next to a Carpenter within just a few months of training.

A guy starting from literally ZERO experience -- never picked up a hammer or driven a screw -- could be much longer, and could be never.

Laborers are pointed in a direction and told to do particular tasks that require no more skill or thought than "put this on that"

Put this broom on that floor, straight lines.

Put this sander on that wall, circles.

Put this sh*te in that bag, tie up.


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## thezoo (Sep 13, 2008)

about $10-15 an hour difference? I've been a laborer every where I've worked. Now I work 90% alone and my favorite saying to myself is "who the f'n pays a mechanic to cleanup, where the h*ll is the laborers".... When I worked commercial major carpenters were called mechanics and they had differing grades of pay/skill/experience. Funny thing is, on some government scale jobs I made more per hour than some of the mechanics depending on what I was doing & how it was classified.
a Great laborer is a carpenter looking for work . 
Most of my employed jobs started as me walking onto a jobsite and asking for a job. 99% I was given the broom day 1 after refusing to grab the base stretcher, then as I jumped in and to initiative to do above my classification opportunities to make more $$/hour magically revealed themselves.

Lots of 50 year old laborers out there working for Friday payday and your lucky if you can find em when there's real labor to be done (bricks, humping bundles, trenching...).

Man I hated laboring for masons. That's a ruff group of ole'bastards, lol.


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## CJ21 (Aug 11, 2007)

I am labourer and carpenter, I tote my own wood, do my own layout, cut my own rafters, and do my own nailing. So I got everything pettry much cover. :clap:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ClaytonR said:


> In my experience, carpentry skills are usually in direct, but inverse, proportion to how much one brags about them...


50/50 in my experience. Ive heard dumb azzes talk about how awesome they are that couldnt build a kit chit house with blue prints and a helper. Then I have met guys who are one step from talking the third person they are so arrogant who are Norm status in the feild. One of my lead carpenters is in between :laughing:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Lets not sell laborers short...:thumbsup:

A Laborer that knows what is going on, can forsee the needs of the crew before they get there and doesn't stand around is worth a pretty fair wage.:thumbsup:


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## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

griz said:


> Lets not sell laborers short...:thumbsup:
> 
> A Laborer that knows what is going on, can forsee the needs of the crew before they get there and doesn't stand around is worth a pretty fair wage.:thumbsup:


I gotta find me a laborer like that


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## StrongTower (Mar 4, 2010)

I've always said you can tell alot of a person on how they sweep the floor.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Jaws said:


> 50/50 in my experience. Ive heard dumb azzes talk about how awesome they are that couldnt build a kit chit house with blue prints and a helper. Then I have met guys who are one step from talking the third person they are so arrogant who are Norm status in the feild. One of my lead carpenters is in between :laughing:


The two best carpenters I have ever met will tell you how good they are. But they aren't lying when they tell you.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Sk94 said:


> No skill brother I'm 19, and willing to learn anything wood related


One of the things you may or may not learn in the field, but I'm gonna box your ears about it right now: Respect your elders.

{(Sorry Griz) I'm gonna use you to state a point}

I may be a noob to the forum, but not to the trades.

You want to learn about the trades:

The guys that you are talking to are seasoned contractors.

This forum is full of information, and most guys here will be willing to "walk you through" a lot of things trade, employee, employer, business related. 

You don't have enough time in yet, to refer to a Lead, General or Boss as:
"brother"

Sorry,

I had to get that out.

It bugged me from the time I read it.


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## steex (Feb 19, 2013)

On the other hand, every time that an older guy starts calling me brother I know that he is planning to screw me out of money.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Sk94 said:


> Is it like a rank process? You start off as a labourer and then 4 years time become a carpenter.
> 
> Which is easier to find work?


The difference between them is Carpenters think they know everything and apprentices don't know s^*t. :laughing:


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

griz said:


> I've been around for over 40 years and still push a broom now & then...


I've been around for nearly 30 years & still push a broom when momma tells me to push a broom


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

laborers are worthless, I can unload my own trucks, stock my own material, fill my own dumpster, clean my own mess, and build my own stuff. when I have a laborer around to clean up, i make him work for his pay.
btw a laborer does not work his way up the ranks to be a carpenter, a carpenters apprentice does that. a laborer is an unskilled worthless body that trolls around job sites getting in the way of the skilled trades.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

ubcguy89 said:


> laborers are worthless, I can unload my own trucks, stock my own material, fill my own dumpster, clean my own mess, and build my own stuff. when I have a laborer around to clean up, i make him work for his pay.
> btw a laborer does not work his way up the ranks to be a carpenter, a carpenters apprentice does that. a laborer is an unskilled worthless body that trolls around job sites getting in the way of the skilled trades.


Their not worthless. A good laborer is a godsend.

Also, your grouping large commercial site laborers in with all laborers in construction and that's just not the way it is. Outside of large commercial and union projects it's different.

On commercial and industrial sites yes we hire laborers strictly to do that, labor. They are not there to move up or help. A helper or apprentice gets that job. 

HOWEVER, in smaller companies and residential/home improvement companies a young guy starting as a laborer that does his job and listens will most certainly rise up the ranks to apprentice, journeyman, carpenter, foreman, superintendent, etc...

Don't give young men that are considering joining the trades reading this the wrong idea.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Mud Master said:


> Their not worthless. A good laborer is a godsend.
> 
> Also, your grouping large commercial site laborers in with all laborers in construction and that's just not the way it is. Outside of large commercial and union projects it's different.
> 
> ...


I started in a ditch :thumbsup: Still find myself in one from time to time  Whatever it takes to get it done :thumbsup:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

griz said:


> Lets not sell laborers short...:thumbsup:
> 
> A Laborer that knows what is going on, can forsee the needs of the crew before they get there and doesn't stand around is worth a pretty fair wage.:thumbsup:


You got that right, I worked for almost five years as a laborer for a commercial general contractor. Carpenters came and went but I always worked. I was in charge of the equipment had the keys to everything and made my superintendents job a hell of a lot easier. They paid me well for a 19 year old kid. Then they finally put me with an old grumpy Door hanger and finish carpenter. I learned more from that old man then I realized at the time. It was a treat to get to wear bags. 

Let me tell you I'm pushing 50 now and there's something to be said about starting at the bottom and working your way up through the ranks. Although you may not think so now, the experience you get from the bottom up is priceless.


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## Rustbucket (May 22, 2009)

ubcguy89 said:


> laborers are worthless, I can unload my own trucks, stock my own material, fill my own dumpster, clean my own mess, and build my own stuff. when I have a laborer around to clean up, i make him work for his pay.
> btw a laborer does not work his way up the ranks to be a carpenter, a carpenters apprentice does that. a laborer is an unskilled worthless body that trolls around job sites getting in the way of the skilled trades.


I'm guessing from your post that you are in your early 20's? If your time is worth as much unloading, digging, filling dumpsters etc as it is doing your primary job, you haven't moved up enough. 

Some of the most successful people in business started on the bottom.


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## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

ubcguy89 said:


> laborers are worthless, I can unload my own trucks, stock my own material, fill my own dumpster, clean my own mess, and build my own stuff. when I have a laborer around to clean up, i make him work for his pay.
> btw a laborer does not work his way up the ranks to be a carpenter, a carpenters apprentice does that. a laborer is an unskilled worthless body that trolls around job sites getting in the way of the skilled trades.


 Wow I was unaware that anyone created by GOD was worthless 
I am pretty sure the descisions they make and the actions they take to either prosper or fail are theirs to make and If they are happy in whichever path they choose ? 

Also any new kid who is willing to work hard show some dedication, willingness to learn (rare qualities now a days ) and who demonstrates a little loyalty ,has the ability to be doing your job with a little guidance and time under his/her belt 

There is only 1 Judge that matters in the grand scheme of things 
and he will be coming again ( in my opinion it will be pretty soon )


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I wear all the hats. If I don't do it, it doesn't get done.

I would consider a laborer someone with interest but lacking specific skills. Hopefully a good one will be willing to learn and help. Any laborer who needs constant direction probably won't make it up to carpenter. You need to know that you have to keep busy, you need to take the initiative to start doing something that needs to be done so someone doesn't have to tell you to do it and you need to follow instructions very well. If you have a better idea on how it should be done, speak up. If they say that's they way we do it, the shut up and do it that way.


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## Birch (Jul 20, 2009)

Leo G said:


> I wear all the hats. If I don't do it, it doesn't get done.
> 
> I would consider a laborer someone with interest but lacking specific skills. Hopefully a good one will be willing to learn and help. Any laborer who needs constant direction probably won't make it up to carpenter. You need to know that you have to keep busy, you need to take the initiative to start doing something that needs to be done so someone doesn't have to tell you to do it and you need to follow instructions very well. If you have a better idea on how it should be done, speak up. If they say that's they way we do it, the shut up and do it that way.


Generally skilled Vs. unskilled is the difference. 

The best way to become skilled . . . . . . attendance! 

"A good clean-up man is hard to find . . . :whistling, especially if he's hiding."


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Its not a formal process, it is different for everyone. Sure, you start as a labourer but there is no set period of time (4 years) before you are considered a carpenter... its as your skills and knowledge progress, it is different for everyone. Just try to learn as much as you can and gain some skills, its a bit more appealing to potential employers if you have some limited skills over no skills. I am sorta in the same boat as you, just show an interest in what you do and people will be open to help you. I am the youngest on my crew and sure we all do labor work from time to time, but i am not a strictly a labourer, i am up and about working and doing real tasks... Labor work is not always the most fun, or easiest, but don't let that discourage you.. You know what you are working towards and if you work hard to achieve your goal the result will be great.:thumbup:


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

Mud Master said:


> Their not worthless. A good laborer is a godsend.
> 
> Also, your grouping large commercial site laborers in with all laborers in construction and that's just not the way it is. Outside of large commercial and union projects it's different.
> 
> ...


I am a union carpenter, and I do work on large commercial projects. On the smaller ones, we use the apprentices to do the clean up, and grunt work. We have apprentices tie ceiling wire, insulate, cut studs, unload trucks, etc. laborers who assist us usually just do the demo, unload trucks, and clean up.


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

Rustbucket said:


> I'm guessing from your post that you are in your early 20's? If your time is worth as much unloading, digging, filling dumpsters etc as it is doing your primary job, you haven't moved up enough.
> 
> Some of the most successful people in business started on the bottom.


I do agree with you about starting at the bottom, as I have been their. I am in my early 20's and I consider myself a runner, as I just get it done. my job is to make my boss money, and I cant stand relying on someone elso to get my casework off a truck or get my stud scraps out of my scaffolds way. I work commercial, and all laborers do is clean up, demo, and unload trucks. I can do that too


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ubcguy89 said:


> I am a union carpenter, and I do work on large commercial projects. On the smaller ones, we use the apprentices to do the clean up, and grunt work. We have apprentices tie ceiling wire, insulate, cut studs, unload trucks, etc. laborers who assist us usually just do the demo, unload trucks, and clean up.


I too was a union Carpenter on commercial projects. Our Apprentices did only carpentry work. We had union laborers do all the laborer work. A union laborer was paid pretty good and they got good bennies. If I remember right they could collect retirement earlier then the Carpenters. Although its been 15 years since I was in the union.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

ubcguy89 said:


> I do agree with you about starting at the bottom, as I have been their. I am in my early 20's and I consider myself a runner, as I just get it done. my job is to make my boss money, and I cant stand relying on someone elso to get my casework off a truck or get my stud scraps out of my scaffolds way. I work commercial, and all laborers do is clean up, demo, and unload trucks. I can do that too



Just wait until you have a few more birthdays....:thumbup::thumbup:


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

wnc viking said:


> You can do a lot of planning pushing a broom. I have over 25 years and I still push a broom but I an also making a material list and a punch list at the same time


:thumbsup:

I love me some sweeping at the end of the day. Gives me a chance to go on auto-pilot and review all the issues that I ran into that day or have coming up, mental list of what's needed tomorrow.


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## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

moorewarner said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> I love me some sweeping at the end of the day. Gives me a chance to go on auto-pilot and review all the issues that I ran into that day or have coming up, mental list of what's needed tomorrow.


A good day of mindless work is great every now and then


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## Chad McDade (Oct 14, 2012)

There isn't a set amount of time that it takes to move from being a laborer to being a carpenter. I know guys that have been digging holes, carrying lumber, and pushing a broom for 20 years and are no closer to being a carpenter today than they were the first time they set foot on a job site. I also know guys that started out as laborers 5 years ago that are well on their way to becoming skilled carpenters. There is nothing wrong with being a laborer - a good laborer can make a world of difference on a job. There is nothing better than being on a job with a good laborer who is always keeping the site cleaned up, material neatly stocked where it is needed, helping the carpenters and other trades when they need it.....


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## StrongBuilding (Mar 25, 2013)

ubcguy89 said:


> laborers are worthless, I can unload my own trucks, stock my own material, fill my own dumpster, clean my own mess, and build my own stuff. when I have a laborer around to clean up, i make him work for his pay.
> btw a laborer does not work his way up the ranks to be a carpenter, a carpenters apprentice does that. a laborer is an unskilled worthless body that trolls around job sites getting in the way of the skilled trades.


Obviously this is just your ignorance or arrogance talking.


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

StrongBuilding said:


> Obviously this is just your ignorance or arrogance talking.


May be so, I have some friends that are laborers, I just dont need them on a job that I run. apprentices are cheaper:whistling


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ubcguy89 said:


> May be so, I have some friends that are laborers, I just dont need them on a job that I run. apprentices are cheaper:whistling


Can't think of any job that was very substantial that I didn't need a laborer. I definitely am not going to let my carpenters do the labor work. Jobs I have been on, the laborers did a lot of finish grading also. They drove skip loaders and skid steers. Back in the day laborers used to set up screed rails and pins and hand graded all the pads no matter how big they were.


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## StrongBuilding (Mar 25, 2013)

I have worked with/for union carpenters. Iron workers, pile bucks, operators and teamsters. Everyone of them liked my work and would request me to work on their crew. If they're interested in getting work done and not sucking up or too union. Meaning they are production , quality and safety oriented.


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## StrongBuilding (Mar 25, 2013)

As a union laborer I don't have any problem with working a conglomerate crew. But buildings don't get built by laborers but without laborers all the crafts are not going to be doing their jobs. 

When all the other crafts want their apprentices to do laborer work I'm glad my union puts their rather large foot down. . There are only so many man hours in a building. . If apprentice carpenters want to do laborer work. They should pay their dues at the laborers hall. 
That's really the biggest reason other crafts want their guys to do our work.


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## StrongBuilding (Mar 25, 2013)

As a union laborer I don't have any problem with working a conglomerate crew. But buildings don't get built by laborers but without laborers all the crafts are not going to be doing their jobs. 

When all the other crafts want their apprentices to do laborer work I'm glad my union puts their rather large foot down. . There are only so many man hours in a building. . If apprentice carpenters want to do laborer work. They should pay their dues at the laborers hall. 
That's really the biggest reason other crafts want their guys to do our work. Their hall gets paid for the man hours


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

StrongBuilding said:


> Obviously this is just your ignorance or arrogance talking.


Seems like a very union thing to say. Union carpenters seem to have an idea about labourers or other carpenters that it is their work, not a laborers, not a non union carpenters.... Guys we are all in the same boat, trying to produce quality work and make some money while we are at it. So to call it "your work" :no:
Its not your work until you get it. I am not really sure why unions are in place... We are all in the construction field and to further separate ourselves and give grounds to fight and argue....? For what?


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

ive been around union guys before, a couple years ago i worked in a union shop but i wasnt part of hte union.. couldnt believe how lazy some of them were. one of them had never used a nail gun.. didnt know what 16" o.c meant at all.. other union guys ive worked with couldnt read a tap.. Locally the union is considered a joke among quite a few guys.. especially since the union brags about having a 50% employment rate... umm that means they have a 50% unemployment rate.. the provincial unemployment rate is around 8% last time i checked


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

woodworkbykirk said:


> ive been around union guys before, a couple years ago i worked in a union shop but i wasnt part of hte union.. couldnt believe how lazy some of them were. one of them had never used a nail gun.. didnt know what 16" o.c meant at all.. other union guys ive worked with couldnt read a tap.. Locally the union is considered a joke among quite a few guys.. especially since the union brags about having a 50% employment rate... umm that means they have a 50% unemployment rate.. the provincial unemployment rate is around 8% last time i checked


When I did my stint in the union we worked our asses off. There were three shifts 24 hours a day. Form-setting, we were building 100' of poured in place walls a day. Formed and reinforced. It looked like a bunch of monkeys on a football.


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## StrongBuilding (Mar 25, 2013)

Unfortunately there are plenty of lazy, good for nothing laborers.. They don't hang around with me and I don't hang around with them. As my former career was being a timber faller cutting for scale/ volume, what we call Busheling. A bushel is 1,000 board feet, woods scale. To fall and buck 300$ worth in a 6 hour day ( standard day for a faller) . You have to know what your doing and really go ahead oner. . When I went into carpentering I approached it the same way and later did the same with laboring. The Local got a number of real good older laborers when the timber industry went belly up in Alaska .


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## StrongBuilding (Mar 25, 2013)

About 5.50$ is what we got paid per thousand.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

Here in Chicago the union laborers make a couple bucks and hour more than the union carpenters.


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## CScalf (Dec 18, 2008)

griz said:


> I've been around for over *40* years and still push a broom now & then...


I think you are missing a few digits...maybe even a comma:whistling


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## StrongBuilding (Mar 25, 2013)

mrcharles said:


> Here in Chicago the union laborers make a couple bucks and hour more than the union carpenters.


Wow. In Prudhoe there aren't any union carpenters. All the carpentry is done by laborers. All the unions except IBEW took a scale cut to work the Slope. Those that didn't like the carpenter's don't work there. So we or non union carpenters do the carpentry*.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Though a carpenter may have to do some laborer work and a laborer may have to do some carpentry work, a laborer might think of himself as a carpenter but a carpenter will never think of himself as a laborer.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

I usually just saw the carpenter and laborer term in the union, they each had a different pay scale and did different tasks.

Laborer:
Rigging
Pour concrete
Set scaffolding
Unroll and roll up tools

Carpenter:
Set forms
Basic carpentry

Although the tasks get interchanged a lot. When I first entered the union I found rigging was being switched from laborers to carpenters. Carpenters generally can do any of the laborer tasks but usually are not as good at it. I was a carpenter and tried working for a scaffold company for two weeks. All the leads were laborers, they were the ones training me how to do everything. I never realized how much went into scaffolding, it takes about five years experience doing nothing but scaffolds to really get good at it. I saw a really skilled journeymen carpenter try and vibrate a wall once, he got it stuck inside the forms because he didn't know what he was doing, it had to be cut off and left in there. The laborers know how to do that correctly.

When working non-union it's all subjective, you can call it what you want. When I did a lot of non-union framing they would try to have people be laborers but I don't think it worked very good. They would tell me as a lead carpenter "have so and so do nothing but pack lumber and clean up your mess". Which was fine at the time but five months later all they knew how to do was pack lumber. Then I would be left with a crew of guys that didn't know anything. Framing houses, at some point in time everyone needs the skill to actually frame a house. That's why I'm not a fan of having the distinction between carpenters and laborers when you're framing. I believe in equal labor, you pack your own lumber. I can also pack lumber and sweep a floor faster than an inexperienced person, so even when we had laborers I didn't see us saving any money.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

In Detroit and in Chicago all rigging is done by iron workers.


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## detroit687 (Sep 4, 2008)

In my experience I see the non union company's as thinking of laborers and apprentices as one in the same. And the union co and my opinion is that there both completely different profesions.
A laborer has no use for a tape measure. A large enough commercial job could easily have a laborer sweeping and staging material all day long. a apprentice should be performing the same tasks as a journeyman under supervision.


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## mski (Apr 4, 2013)

tenon0774 said:


> One of the things you may or may not learn in the field, but I'm gonna box your ears about it right now: Respect your elders.
> 
> {(Sorry Griz) I'm gonna use you to state a point}
> 
> ...



I'm in the business 24 years years and didnt feel he was disrespectful. Took its as a figure of speech. Actually read it in a Hulk Hogan voice.:laughing:

To the OP, many have mentioned already, put your time in. Stick your nose in when something is being done you're not familiar with.
If you dont know how to layout a wall, ask your boss or lead to teach you. Dont know how to cut rafters, watch and learn, ask questions, etc, etc. Look, listen, learn. 

I work by myself and do just about every trade except carpeting. I learned by watching other trades and asking questions. People with knowledge will just about always are willing to teach someone. Boost's the ego.
I learned a lot about electrical by staying after work helping an electrician pull wire, install breakers, recept's etc. Not for pay but for experience. Plumbing the same way. Had a neighbor who did HVAC and plumbing. On rainy days I sometimes worked with him for experience. No pay.

BTW: nothing wrong with pushing a broom. I do it every day. A clean job site shows the client you care about their home, your work and quality you are delivering. A dirty job site comes off as a WGAS attitude.


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## Chesire cat 182 (10 mo ago)

griz said:


> All Carpenters can be laborers....
> 
> but not all Laborers can be Carpenters....
> 
> ...


Agreed no one is to important to do what jas to be done.


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