# Commercial door installation



## SAcarpenter (Oct 10, 2008)

So I've worked on my share of light commercial sites before but have never had to install the metal door frames. This is a wood frame building on slab so the install is a little trickier is what the gc told me. We framed all the openings like normal and just sawzalled the king/shoulder assembly at the bottom, pushed it out of the way, and tapconed the frame.







Then we toenail the assembly back in place and plumb up from there. It seems to be working so far but we have about 20 more to do on Monday so if there's a better way, I'm open to it. The GC also told us to just chisel out the temporary spreaders to break the welds. Does that sound right? What am I missing? How do you commercial guys do it?


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## MLCcarpenter (Dec 11, 2011)

Depends who fabricated the frames but sometimes you can break the weld on the spreaders with a masonry chisel. I typically never trust the welded in spreaders and always cut my own. Saves a lot of headaches when it comes time to swing doors. Try to tapcon the temp spreader down until sheet rock is hung if possible. 

Don't think you have too many options on the studs though.


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## SAcarpenter (Oct 10, 2008)

Not sure where the frames came from but so far the spreaders are bang on. We're checking each one as we go


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Chisel should knock them right off.

That's the intent when they are made.


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## sandshooter (Dec 30, 2012)

leave the spreaders on until the frame is locked in. as long as your frame slide inside the king studs u should be able to fly.those fold out tabs make it pretty simple to screw and lock in. looks like that frame is a hollow metal. so i would use piece of drywall on each corner to set the in and out, i always laser in the top and down.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

No fireproofing needed in the door frame?

Un filled metal frames aren't a rated assembly...

Plastic shims used to level head of door frame?


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

Cut the spreaders with a pair of snips in the middle and wiggle them to and fro. Saves all the banging on the metal and the chisel. I hate that sound.


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

As far as install, swinging the trimmer out of the way is the way to go. 

We had to swap frames on doors that were just installed in a new opening. Someone messed up. :duh: 

We did the same thing. Move the studs out of the way. Remove tapcon, swap frame, re-attach to the floor, and put it all back together.


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## SAcarpenter (Oct 10, 2008)

No fire rating required, its just a small office space. We haven't had to shim any frames yet but when we do i was just going to cut shims out of green treated


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## Johnny_5 (Apr 24, 2014)

Fouthgeneration said:


> No fireproofing needed in the door frame?
> 
> Un filled metal frames aren't a rated assembly...
> 
> Plastic shims used to level head of door frame?


According to SDI, grout is not required in a rated frame assembly in either drywall or masonry up to a 3 hour rating. See page 8 on the link below. :whistling 

http://www.steeldoor.org/res/Fire Rated Doors and Frames Overview.pdf

When did the OP mention anything about a fire rating, and what's wrong with plastic shims? 

Back to the original question, you're doing it right. We used to use hammer in anchor as opposed to tapcons, but same difference. And the advice above about spreaders is all good.


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## MLCcarpenter (Dec 11, 2011)

Just make sure you check the spec book for slugging or insulating the frames before you get too far. In my area they have gone to using rock wool insulation in the frames as opposed to using structolite.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Un filled metal frames aren't a rated assembly...


Yea they are. Just not a real high rating. Commonly used with metal studs and 5/8X on one hour corridors all over the place.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

We typically install welded frames as we stand the walls.


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## Tenfourguy (Nov 15, 2010)

been using Lead drive pins for the feet for years with out any issues ...also use 3/8 inch galvanized washers and put under feet with the anchors going through the washers....will never fail ...


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

As a low bidder leaving out expensive upgrades like grouted/filled door jambs is profitable, but questionable on entryways and frames that are part of egress routes during a fire. And the thermal mass energy savings in any exterior applications...

the World Trade Center Towers collapsed in an hour because they had NO fireproofing on the structural steel, asbestos products just being outlawed and replacements not yet available( ~1973) Building codes are minimums required.


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## Johnny_5 (Apr 24, 2014)

Fouthgeneration said:


> As a low bidder leaving out expensive upgrades like grouted/filled door jambs is profitable, but questionable on entryways and frames that are part of egress routes during a fire. And the thermal mass energy savings in any exterior applications...
> 
> the World Trade Center Towers collapsed in an hour because they had NO fireproofing on the structural steel, asbestos products just being outlawed and replacements not yet available( ~1973) Building codes are minimums required.


Not to deviate from the OP, but as a bidder on a commercial project, you bid what is in the specs. Nothing more. A fire rated assembly up to 3 hours does not require the frames to be filled, given the wall is also rated accordingly. You can upgrade your bid all you want, but you'll lose because you'll always be high.

The World Trade Center? Really? There was definitely fire proofing on that steel. just in case you doubt me, or your conspiracy theory site says differently, see link below. It wasn't up to todays specs, but it was sufficient and met the specs for the time period. Maybe do some homework before you speak, and don't take those conspiracy sites too seriously. 

http://www.fireengineering.com/arti...e-rebirth/fireproofing-at-the-wtc-towers.html


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## SAcarpenter (Oct 10, 2008)

We are just the framing sub. Our scope is framing, WRB, windows and interior door frames thats it. The rest is up to the GC to complete or sub out.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

SAcarpenter said:


> We are just the framing sub. Our scope is framing, WRB, windows and interior door frames thats it. The rest is up to the GC to complete or sub out.


From now on try to check the drawings to see if the doors are welded frame HM. If so tell the GC you need them there by the day you're framing walls. Makes things a lot easier.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

slowsol said:


> From now on try to check the drawings to see if the doors are welded frame HM. If so tell the GC you need them there by the day you're framing walls. Makes things a lot easier.


As a carpenter, I've installed thousands of HM doors. And a equal number as a superintendent. 

The doors need to be there before the sheet rock, and if there is too much winning on the part of the sub, I just tell them to tell their mommies, cause I don't give a ****.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> As a low bidder leaving out expensive upgrades like grouted/filled door jambs is profitable, but questionable on entryways and frames that are part of egress routes during a fire. And the thermal mass energy savings in any exterior applications...


Read the plans. Why put in a grouted 4 hour frame in a one hour wall?


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## mgb (Oct 31, 2008)

If the door frames get thresholds later on, or any flooring that would cover. I like to attach a piece of angle at the bottom. Self tappers into that pre-made hold down, so it's exposed on the inside of the jamb. Then run a couple tapcon's into the slab.

Another way is to make a jig that locates the mounting points. Then wire nail a couple headless spikes. Drop the door frame onto the pins.

Steel frames kinda suck. Collapsible's are ok, just wish they had more tolerance for the mounting points.

Usually just stuff the frames with roxul.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Johnny 5, read about the collapse.... the kerosine/jet fuel lit a fire that softened the un-fire proofed structural steel enough to drop two floors which overloaded the floor under them..... "pancaking" the rest to 'pile' on the ground...:sad:

Most high rises were built bare for a few years following the Asbestos ban.. hopefully they have been mostly retro-fitted post 911.:whistling.

the grout in the HMF make the building much harder to burgle, and cheaper to heat and cool every day....


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## Johnny_5 (Apr 24, 2014)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Johnny 5, read about the collapse.... the kerosine/jet fuel lit a fire that softened the un-fire proofed structural steel enough to drop two floors which overloaded the floor under them..... "pancaking" the rest to 'pile' on the ground...:sad:
> 
> Most high rises were built bare for a few years following the Asbestos ban.. hopefully they have been mostly retro-fitted post 911.:whistling.
> 
> the grout in the HMF make the building much harder to burgle, and cheaper to heat and cool every day....


First, the steel was fireproofed. Though there is controversy around how well the work was done, whether the steel had been allowed to rust prior to application, and the fact that the contactor was owned by Louis DiBono, a member of the Gambino family, the fact remains that you're statement about there being NO fireproofing is absolutely incorrect.

Also, asbestos was not the only fireproofing around at the time, it was simply the better product. When health concerns arose about the asbestos, there was no choice but to change to the then inferior product. Buildings were not built "bare" while they waited for a fireproofing replacement. In fact, the first 30 or so floors of the trade center were fireproofed with asbestos, then later stripped off and replaced due to the rising health concerns. The replacement product was called Blaze Shield and, according to the manufacturer, had been thoroughly tested and carried a UL certification. 

While grouting a door frame is good practice for the reasons you mentioned, your previous statement that a fire rated opening REQUIRES grouting is also absolutely incorrect. It is also not prudent to do work that is not specifically called out in the specifications.

Sorry OP for derailing the thread a bit......


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

I've worked tons in Type I steel framed skyscrapers, built around 1986-88. Thru multiple TI's, the fireproofing takes a beating. I'm sure the WTT fireproofing was similarly beat upon beating almost twenty years older.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

The exterior wall structural steel wasn't fireproofed internally... nor were the floor joists bottom chord covered "adequately" Those were the parts that failed in less than 65 minutes... killing 3,000.

Evidently Asbestos containing FP was used till the 36/7th floor of the North tower...

Mea Culpa, Fire proofing was installed partially on the WTCs.

If I had to tell a sub to grout an exterior entry door to a business, I'd flip out.:blink: I even grouted the door frames in my own house--evidently a waste of time and material to create a quieter stronger door assembly with only a few more $ used too add value.

I do thousands of necessary things that aren't in the SPECS, maybe that is why I am not a Billionaire... 

I can see interior doors with out any security issues omitting grout.(I'd want my office door built so you couldn't pop it open with 8" long pry bar)'


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Fouthgeneration said:


> If I had to tell a sub to grout an exterior entry door to a business, I'd flip out.:blink: I


Then you'd flip out again when you got the change order. Do you normally build not as-per-plan? When the plans call for a two story wood framed structure, do you build a five story mansion? I don't see your point.


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

slowsol said:


> From now on try to check the drawings to see if the doors are welded frame HM. If so tell the GC you need them there by the day you're framing walls. Makes things a lot easier.


Or leave the framing out, install the frame, then frame around the frame. :blink:


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## elementbldrs (Sep 26, 2010)

Why arent you using kd's? Same rating, no knocking the kings over.


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## GCTony (Oct 26, 2012)

elementbldrs said:


> Why arent you using kd's? Same rating, no knocking the kings over.


'cause welded were specified would be my guess. We prefer to leave the spreaders in until the frames are caulked, doors are on site ready to swing. Less chance of the frame getting knocked out of position.

These days you don't see wood framing in commercial spaces very often.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

I hate KD's


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## elementbldrs (Sep 26, 2010)

*Commercial Door Installation*

Interesting, we've seen welded frames nearly go away out here. All Knock down. For us the sequencing works. Frames, doors, hardware don't hit the site until after rock is hung, when typically there is room for laydown. Most of the spaces we work has extremely limited space, so shaking material out has to be thought out. Not seeing really any getting knocked around, by the time they go in we are past rough in.

I hear you on what is spec'd, but i regularly drop the RFI to get them switched out to KD's.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

We prefer welded also. Hate dealing with the miters not lining up.


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