# why are people slow and incompetent



## illbuildit.dd (Jan 7, 2015)

I've mostly worked on my own over the years, but decide to grow a little occasionally. When I bid jobs, it's based on the fact that I have done it many times and I know how long it takes. When I do what I bid, it works out and is perfect every time. When I bid a job and have help do it, it never works out. Even though they are pretty good and well paid. 
Time to downsize again. After this big bathroom remodel thst is!!!


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Just the nature of the way things are now days....

Everyone I know in any trade has the same complaint.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

You will never get others to care like you do. I've settled into just accepting that and bidding accordingly. :thumbsup:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

You have to find competent people, and build their skill set in my experience. 

Not many competent tradesmen looking for jobs.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

If they have the same drive you do, they are working for themselves.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Simple. Most don't really care. They are in it for the check. No one is going to care about your project/company like you do.


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

Seems those worth hiring already have jobs.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

Ever have a guy who runs a good business work with you, he's different than your employee's. He understands that you are running a business and he's going to be working harder than the average guy.

My mason framed a deck with me while the rest of the guys were on an exterior job. I'm the lead for our crew now, and the mason, who had never framed a deck before, was more valuable than two of the guys on the crew. My guy who has a few years of experience would have been more help, but the mason is a good buddy and we had a great time.

Someone told me once, the best employee's, are those who think like owners. If you've got a guy who is very aware of costs, efficiency, productivity, etc, he will be a great employee. But then as Golden said, he's going to realize he can do better working for himself and he'll no longer be your employee.

I'm the exception... :jester:

But really, I'm fine with being an employee for a long time because the bottom line for me is, family is very important and the longer I can stay out of running the business the better.


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## illbuildit.dd (Jan 7, 2015)

Seems I've known these answers for years but still ask. When I was an employee, I worked the same as I do now. Efficient, effective, never had to do things twice, I don't know. Hell I have a guy I partner up with from time to time and he's slow too. And only listens to me when it's obvious he's wrong.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Jaws said:


> ... and build their skill set...


:thumbsup:

That's how the future looks, to succeed.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

illbuildit.dd said:


> I've mostly worked on my own over the years, but decide to grow a little occasionally. When I bid jobs, it's based on the fact that I have done it many times and I know how long it takes. When I do what I bid, it works out and is perfect every time. When I bid a job and have help do it, it never works out. Even though they are pretty good and well paid.
> Time to downsize again. After this big bathroom remodel thst is!!!


 lets look at this a little differently.
You---are competent when it comes to estimating how long it's going to take YOU to do a certain task.........

But YOU are incompetent---when it comes to estimating how long it's going to take someone ELSE---a mere mortal---to do that same task.

that---is a skill YOU have to learn in order to grow.
me personally---we did a project on Friday. when I was30 I would have done that project solo in 12 hours(7-7)

On friday it took 3 guys from 8-2:30 to do the same project---19.5 hours.
I am thrilled because I estimated it correctly, didn't personally lift a finger and made more money than the 30 year old me would have made working like a dog. plus 3 OTHER men earned a days pay and spent it working safe and relatively comfortable.

it's a skill you have to learn---- you can remain frustrated that everyone isn't as fast as you---- or you can accept reality, plan accordingly---and grow.
stephen


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Ever have a guy who runs a good business work with you, he's different than your employee's. He understands that you are running a business and he's going to be working harder than the average guy.
> 
> My mason framed a deck with me while the rest of the guys were on an exterior job. I'm the lead for our crew now, and the mason, who had never framed a deck before, was more valuable than two of the guys on the crew. My guy who has a few years of experience would have been more help, but the mason is a good buddy and we had a great time.
> 
> ...


You need people who learn quick and think ahead. I am not a car mechanic. But the guy across from my shop is, and he works on my families vehicles including mine. When I'm there I help him. I know when he needs a tool, I get it. A rag or a light or just about anything. I pretty much know how things work and what he'll need at any given moment. But I'm not a car mechanic... how do I know of such things?

It just comes to common sense and the order of operation. Do I sometimes miss giving him something? Of course, I've never done most of the things he does. I'm clueless. But the next time around I do know and he has that tool waiting for him. 

He told me that I'm better then his brother that has been doing this forever. Asked if I wanted to cut my pay in half and work for me. He laughed of course.

But this is what you need in an employee. Someone who at least acts like they have skin in the game. You may be making the profit but they are still making an agreed upon paycheck. If the employee lags behind, so does the company and the ability of that company to issue your paycheck at the end of the week.

Most guys don't care.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Some people have drive and even if they were not being paid a dime would be trying to do it well just because, alot of people dont have that ambition.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I won't get started. You'll never find the answer.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

Leo G said:


> You need people who learn quick and think ahead. I am not a car mechanic. But the guy across from my shop is, and he works on my families vehicles including mine. When I'm there I help him. I know when he needs a tool, I get it. A rag or a light or just about anything. I pretty much know how things work and what he'll need at any given moment. But I'm not a car mechanic... how do I know of such things?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup. Like you said, it's common sense. Funny how many people seem to lack that.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Common sense is no longer common.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

Leo G said:


> Common sense is no longer common.



:laughing: so true...


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Why are they slow and incompetent?

Because there's no app that will make them faster and smarter.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

480sparky said:


> why are they slow and incompetent?
> 
> Because there's no app that will make them faster and smarter.


bingo


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Some edition of this book
http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Strategically-Competitive-Business-Paperback/dp/0393310353
tells you how to motivate your workers by having them invest in the outcome. Maybe as much as you are invested in the outcome, maybe more if they are desperate for work.

IIRC, his example used a software project but it should work as well for you.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

The question should be "Why are so many Americans slow and incompetent?"

Maybe things will change when the full library of Tipitop dvds become available.


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

Like others have said - They don't have any skin in the game. Giving a bonus when a job goes quicker and better than expected is one way to motivate people, but unfortunately you can't make your employee give _you_ money when they f-up a job. I hired a new guy, that started Monday, and I had to fire him by lunchtime. He wasn't very experienced, but he interviewed great and I thought "I can train him". But, the FOURTH time I caught him screwing off and texting his GF (On his FIRST DAY!) he had to go, even though I really needed a laborer on this job. When a HO comments on how lazy your workers are, it's time for a change.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

I think people want to do good and be efficient. We all sell what we know very very well. When we sell something a little different, we are still very very comfortable with 90% of the job. We know where all our tools are, are used to working with them. We know what we told the customer, what the proposal says, what material is being used and where. 

If you get help and let them do what you do day in and day out for 3 or 4 years I bet they will get very close to as fast as you. Especially if you let them have a say in tools, let them set up there own truck and order material.


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## walkinplate (Oct 11, 2014)

Why are people slow and incompetent? 

Because they don't care. 

If it was their name/business/reputation/money/headaches on the line, I guarantee they'd preform with more urgency and efficiency. 

Different employees have different strengths and weaknesses. A good leader knows how to use both, to get the end results he needs. 

A good leader also understands that employees only work for money.


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## Knight-Builder (Feb 19, 2015)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Ever have a guy who runs a good business work with you, he's different than your employee's. He understands that you are running a business and he's going to be working harder than the average guy.
> 
> My mason framed a deck with me while the rest of the guys were on an exterior job. I'm the lead for our crew now, and the mason, who had never framed a deck before, was more valuable than two of the guys on the crew. My guy who has a few years of experience would have been more help, but the mason is a good buddy and we had a great time.
> 
> ...


I always get the impression that you and I are in a very similar boat, Xtreme... apart for your enviable tool buying sprees :thumbup:, I don't get as many of those and it's usually my money anyway :sad:


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

*Why Are People Slow And Incompetent*



Knight-Builder said:


> I always get the impression that you and I are in a very similar boat, Xtreme... apart for your enviable tool buying sprees :thumbup:, I don't get as many of those and it's usually my money anyway :sad:



You're an employee I take it?

Boss doesn't let you buy lots of tools?

Gotta sell the boss on how it will improve his bottom line. It's working for me... :laughing:


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## JAH (Jul 27, 2014)

I would like to preface my post with this comment. I'm not a business owner, yet. However I have many years as a hands on, bag wearing, red neck, PM. 
The employees, green or seasoned, who have impressed me the most are son's of blue collar families. Young fellas who grew up on farms or the loggers boy. Those young men get the fact that you are required to produce and be efficient in order to survive. Their hard work up bringing and physical labor is all they know. The rest can be taught.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

This industry is getting the workers the marketplace has said it deserves. No whining.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> This industry is getting the workers the marketplace has said it deserves. No whining.


Im very happy with my crew, i chose them, not the market place. You quit whining. You dont like it ( industry, market, what ever YOU look down on), fix it.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Jaws said:


> Im very happy with my crew, i chose them, not the market place. You quit whining. You dont like it ( industry, market, what ever YOU look down on), fix it.


Couldn't agree more. Someone who complains that they aren't happy with their crew is admitting to not being good at their job. Figuring out how to get seemingly ordinary guys to be extraordinary is to lead a crew. If those who serve in the military ended up in the trades instead of the military we would complain that they where helpless. The only difference is the leadership.


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## Knight-Builder (Feb 19, 2015)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> You're an employee I take it?
> 
> Boss doesn't let you buy lots of tools?
> 
> Gotta sell the boss on how it will improve his bottom line. It's working for me... :laughing:


I say similar boats as I'm also the site foreman/supervisor for my father's company - of which I hope to one day be at the helm.

As for the tool purchases, I can often win him over on some things, but other stuff I just foot the bill as I'm a sucker for shiny new toys. 

On certain purchases, he often brings up the fact that his father built what became one of the largest privately owned construction firms in the south of England with little more than a burlap sack full of essential tools.

Together, we strike a good balance; I'd easily go out and buy the best/latest gadget for the task at hand, while he's far more measured and will only budge if it can pay for itself within a couple of jobs. It's a good reminder too that for all the benefits particular tools have for speeding certain processes and jobs up, it's all lost if the user hasn't mastered their own efficiency. 

And besides, I'm happy footing the bill for most of the new tool stuff anyway... the company will be operating under me in the not too distant future and I consider it, along with my commitment to the business, as a downpayment. :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

66 Shelby said:


> Like others have said - They don't have any skin in the game. .......



Oh, but they DO have some skin in the game. It's called a _paycheck_. And if the business doesn't stay profitable, that paycheck can go away.

Unfortunately, most think the world _owes_ them that paycheck just for showing up 3 or 4 days a week. They simply need to be educated on the way the world works and hope they abandon their utopian ideals.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

It's all in the raising !


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

"Slow and incompetent"...depends on why they're slow. If they're unsure, that's kind of a good thing and can be addressed. In fact, one might get a loyal employee out of it. I have one PT guy who's slow, but competent. The first day I hired him, he helped to get me out of a schedule bind.....slowly....but did a solid job. I still call on him from time to time based on that first experience.

If they're just lazy butts that don't give a chit when left alone, that's irreversible. No way to salvage that unless you're cracking a whip all day. (Some folks need that, too.) Huge difference.


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## illbuildit.dd (Jan 7, 2015)

FrankSmith said:


> Couldn't agree more. Someone who complains that they aren't happy with their crew is admitting to not being good at their job. Figuring out how to get seemingly ordinary guys to be extraordinary is to lead a crew. If those who serve in the military ended up in the trades instead of the military we would complain that they where helpless. The only difference is the leadership.


I can't say I'm not happy with my guys. I have an excellent crew. It just seems if I'm not there to answer a question, it never gets figured out properly. My guys care as well. Two of them aren't American (but are legal) and they arr the best of the bunch. I think I just expect everyone to pick things up the way I do. 
Anyway, just had a bad day dealing with mistakes and people not being too coordinated i guess


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## illbuildit.dd (Jan 7, 2015)

MarkJames said:


> "Slow and incompetent"...depends on why they're slow. If they're unsure, that's kind of a good thing and can be addressed. In fact, one might get a loyal employee out of it. I have one PT guy who's slow, but competent. The first day I hired him, he helped to get me out of a schedule bind.....slowly....but did a solid job. I still call on him from time to time based on that first experience.
> 
> If they're just lazy butts that don't give a chit when left alone, that's irreversible. No way to salvage that unless you're cracking a whip all day. (Some folks need that, too.) Huge difference.


Thats something I've always taught people is to take their time and do things right. Speed will come with time


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## illbuildit.dd (Jan 7, 2015)

480sparky said:


> Oh, but they DO have some skin in the game. It's called a _paycheck_. And if the business doesn't stay profitable, that paycheck can go away.
> 
> Unfortunately, most think the world _owes_ them that paycheck just for showing up 3 or 4 days a week. They simply need to be educated on the way the world works and hope they abandon their utopian ideals.


That's what happens in my world. "Sorry man, work just ran out" along with the many pages of reasons


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Here's my answer in a nutshell: Usually because they don't know what they are doing. 

They aren't accomplished and are usually working in the trades because they never buckled down and pursued any thing else. They certainly have no realization for how it affects when you get paid and how much you clear when you do. For the most part this won't change because we build houses in America, but we don't build tradespeople. The best thing you can do is figure out how to deal with it. It won't change in the near future.

Here's what I did: I hired a guy to do all the business administration, payroll, permits, chasing parts,etc so I can stay onsite and oversee production.

Then I set up this trailer to stop all the trips to Home Depot or wherever during the day and compensate for guys that can't remember they need a hammer each day ( I'm exaggerating).

In small business, there is no substitute for the presence of the owner. 

Here's another tip, especially true in finish work: Some guys just don't have it . They don't have the eye for it or the care level or whatever it is . Let them do demo or move on. 

Keep the faith, be thankful you aren't those guys and be the best you can be every day. Be someone the boy you were would be proud of. All the best.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Every once in a while I have to remind myself...

"Don't bid them like YOU are doing all the work yourself"!!!!!!!

My guys are super motivated, and have plenty of "skin" in the game.....psychological and economic, but it will never add up to the 25+ years of experience and my .....special talents :whistling .

I feel like a Vegas handicapper sometimes.

I signed a Change Order for some structural repairs the other day, and went off thinking "I could crush that out in a couple hours".
When I got back to the job and realized that it took 2 people five hours to do it................. I was glad I bid it based on them..... and not me.

(Truth be told, it still irked me that we left money on the table, but I figure that next time they might pull another 10-15% back in for the company)

To put the odds in my favor, I try to be patient and give them the benefit of whatever information and experience I can offer, and make sure they have every tool and material that will make their task easier to complete quickly and with high quality results.


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## JackP23 (Jan 1, 2013)

AGullion said:


> Here's my answer in a nutshell: Usually because they don't know what they are doing.
> 
> They aren't accomplished and are usually working in the trades because they never buckled down and pursued any thing else. They certainly have no realization for how it affects when you get paid and how much you clear when you do. For the most part this won't change because we build houses in America, but we don't build tradespeople. The best thing you can do is figure out how to deal with it. It won't change in the near future.
> 
> ...


That's a good post right there :thumbsup::thumbsup:

_________
Mike


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## apzimmermann (Oct 20, 2013)

I guess what i'm saying is that there aren't always bad people out there. All though I know that it is hard, but you have to give guys chances. Yes I did get yelled at a lot in the Military at first, but the guys that yelled would take a bullet for me and I for them. Its called LOYALTY, develop an atmosphere of loyalty and guys will walk through or rather build walls for ya.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

People are only slow and incompetent when they don't have anything to lose.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Calidecks said:


> You will never get others to care like you do. I've settled into just accepting that and bidding accordingly. 👍


If I could like this a hundred times I would. But I can't.. so guess what buddy... playful nipple twist coming your way!!


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