# I need legal advice



## DylanPope (Oct 22, 2021)

I have been doing landscaping for a few years now,I recently built a retaining wall for some homeowners,originally the wall was only supposed to be 50ft long and I had provided the homeowners with an estimate for the 50ft wall upon dropping off equipment and materials they decided they wanted the wall to be more than double the original length 125ft,I agreed to the work and bought more materials and started the job,the homeowner paid for the materials over the phone and I picked them up since it was a last minute decision to make the wall longer.

Fast forward I completed the wall by myself completely (I’m 21 and haven’t been able to find any reliable help)it looked great and they wrote me a check they were satisfied and all was fine.A week or so later they wanted me to come back and fix some grading they weren’t happy with (I had told them in the very beginning we needed to do it this way and they said otherwise) so I went back and fixed it,again everything was cool.A week or so later they called again about me fixing a drain that had been uncovered from hard rain and I agreed to knowing that they hadn’t put any sod down I also explained my truck was in the shop getting a transmission and that it would have to be after I got it fixed,again everything was just fine.The same week the homeowner text me on a Sunday afternoon late saying that “we need to talk about this wall,neither are structurally sound or in compliance to city code and that it will have to come down and be rebuilt correctly”...knowing I built the wall correctly and no one told me anything about any codes that it would need to meet I’m really confused here.I talked to them and they explained the issues which I told them I would be happy to help and I offered to fix it,even told them to let me know SOON so I could get them in my schedule....they said they would let me know.

A week later they call saying they do not want me to fix it because they have just put sod down and “there’s no way you can do it without messing it up” and then proceeded to say they wanted their money back.I offered to return the money they paid me for my labor but since they are keeping the materials that it would only be the labor cost that gets returned.The next day I sent a text telling them I would mail them a re fund check and got a reply of “we need for you to call us so we can determine a refund amount” I’ve tried to call several times since,I’ve sent texts as well asking how much they want the check for and haven’t gotten a response.So I’m not entirely sure what to do here or if they are going to try and sue me or if they even can I’m not sure so any advice anyone can give me will be greatly appreciated.


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## CarpenterRN (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm not aware of anyone on this forum with a law degree. What does your contract say? Does the wall meet code in the jurisdiction you installed it (that is your responsibility as the contractor)? You really need to contact an attorney who is well versed in construction laws in your state. 

FYI, paragraphs are your friend. Many here won't even read what you wrote because of that. Edit your post and space things out.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

DylanPope said:


> I have been doing landscaping for a few years now,I recently built a retaining wall for some homeowners,originally the wall was only supposed to be 50ft long and I had provided the homeowners with an estimate for the 50ft wall upon dropping off equipment and materials they decided they wanted the wall to be more than double the original length 125ft,I agreed to the work and bought more materials and started the job,the homeowner paid for the materials over the phone and I picked them up since it was a last minute decision to make the wall longer.
> 
> Fast forward I completed the wall by myself completely (I’m 21 and haven’t been able to find any reliable help)it looked great and they wrote me a check they were satisfied and all was fine.A week or so later they wanted me to come back and fix some grading they weren’t happy with (I had told them in the very beginning we needed to do it this way and they said otherwise) so I went back and fixed it,again everything was cool.A week or so later they called again about me fixing a drain that had been uncovered from hard rain and I agreed to knowing that they hadn’t put any sod down I also explained my truck was in the shop getting a transmission and that it would have to be after I got it fixed,again everything was just fine.The same week the homeowner text me on a Sunday afternoon late saying that “we need to talk about this wall,neither are structurally sound or in compliance to city code and that it will have to come down and be rebuilt correctly”...knowing I built the wall correctly and no one told me anything about any codes that it would need to meet I’m really confused here.I talked to them and they explained the issues which I told them I would be happy to help and I offered to fix it,even told them to let me know SOON so I could get them in my schedule....they said they would let me know.
> 
> A week later they call saying they do not want me to fix it because they have just put sod down and “there’s no way you can do it without messing it up” and then proceeded to say they wanted their money back.I offered to return the money they paid me for my labor but since they are keeping the materials that it would only be the labor cost that gets returned.The next day I sent a text telling them I would mail them a re fund check and got a reply of “we need for you to call us so we can determine a refund amount” I’ve tried to call several times since,I’ve sent texts as well asking how much they want the check for and haven’t gotten a response.So I’m not entirely sure what to do here or if they are going to try and sue me or if they even can I’m not sure so any advice anyone can give me will be greatly appreciated.


Don't agree to anything till you've spoken with an attorney.
Why would you offer a refund if the wall was built correctly? How tall is this wall?


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## DylanPope (Oct 22, 2021)

Pounder said:


> Don't agree to anything till you've spoken with an attorney.
> Why would you offer a refund if the wall was built correctly? How tall is this wall?


Probably 5ft at the highest point and mainly because I don’t want to have to deal with them taking me to court because I’m not sure where that would lead I haven’t agreed on anything just yet just discussing my options I’m supposed to be receiving a call from an attorney


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

DylanPope said:


> Probably 5ft at the highest point and mainly because I don’t want to have to deal with them taking me to court because I’m not sure where that would lead I haven’t agreed on anything just yet just discussing my options I’m supposed to be receiving a call from an attorney


Don't know where you're located, but around here a masonry wall over 4' measured from the bottom of the footing has to be engineered.


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## DylanPope (Oct 22, 2021)

Pounder said:


> Don't know where you're located, but around here a masonry wall over 4' measured from the bottom of the footing has to be engineered.


Ga


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

DylanPope said:


> Ga


The place to start would be looking into the building codes that pertain to the work you did. If you don't know what the code is, you can't know if you did it properly. Clearly the client has discovered something that makes them think they have a problem. Your best defense is proving that the work was done correctly.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Don't let them screw you over just because you are young. Push back, get paid.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

Giving money back is no guarantee that the customer won’t still be litigious. Couple things:

Keep the money.
Look for an attorney. Gotta find one you can work with that seems competent.
Start reading the relevant code literature for your work. You need to figure out whether you messed up.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

tgeb said:


> Don't let them screw you over just because you are young. Push back, get paid.


Unless he didn't get a required permit, or didn't build the wall to code, or didn't have an engineered design if it's required, or doesn't have the proper license. If any of those are the case, he needs to go into damage control mode. The most serious mistake he could make under those circumstances is to get adversarial. Piss his client off and they're going to want to punish him, make them an ally and they're going to want to help him solve the problem.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

Also, I read your entire post but it was a slog. Someone suggested you break it up three hours ago. Maybe you already did, I say break it up more.

If you want people to read your novels you gotta at least give them chapters.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

You already put your foot in your mouth agreeing to give a refund in a text. You didn't build it correctly if it's not to code. Your clients are probably speaking with their lawyer.


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## DylanPope (Oct 22, 2021)

avenge said:


> You already put your foot in your mouth agreeing to give a refund in a text. You didn't build it correctly if it's not to code. Your clients are probably speaking with their lawyer.


I spoke with them earlier they finally returned my calls.All they are asking for is their money back,which is what I’m debating no decision has been made and is why I’m seeking advice on the best route to take


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## DylanPope (Oct 22, 2021)

reggi said:


> Also, I read your entire post but it was a slog. Someone suggested you break it up three hours ago. Maybe you already did, I say break it up more.
> 
> If you want people to read your novels you gotta at least give them chapters.


I’m sorry I’m new here I will know next time I was just speaking my mind trying to get advice


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## DylanPope (Oct 22, 2021)

Pounder said:


> Unless he didn't get a required permit, or didn't build the wall to code, or didn't have an engineered design if it's required, or doesn't have the proper license. If any of those are the case, he needs to go into damage control mode. The most serious mistake he could make under those circumstances is to get adversarial. Piss his client off and they're going to want to punish him, make them an ally and they're going to want to help him solve the problem.


The homeowner 


Pounder said:


> Unless he didn't get a required permit, or didn't build the wall to code, or didn't have an engineered design if it's required, or doesn't have the proper license. If any of those are the case, he needs to go into damage control mode. The most serious mistake he could make under those circumstances is to get adversarial. Piss his client off and they're going to want to punish him, make them an ally and they're going to want to help him solve the problem.


the homeowner got the permits long before I started the job and I have built several other walls in this same city with no issues or even heard of building it to code or had any problem like this and I’m not trying to make myself sound good because if I’m in the wrong I’m not afraid to accept my mistakes like I said I’m just wanting advice I don’t want any trouble


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

They had a permit, did you build it to the permit plan? If so you don't owe them anything. 

These people are trying to play you. Don't fall for it.


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## DylanPope (Oct 22, 2021)

tgeb said:


> They had a permit, did you build it to the permit plan? If so you don't owe them anything.
> 
> These people are trying to play you. Don't fall for it.


Correct they had a permit,but I never seen it or read it I don’t guess they saw it necessary to have me look over it which looking back now don’t add up


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

DylanPope said:


> I spoke with them earlier they finally returned my calls.All they are asking for is their money back,which is what I’m debating no decision has been made and is why I’m seeking advice on the best route to take


According to you you already agreed to a refund which I'm clueless why you would do that to begin with. And what do you mean "ALL" they want is their money back I'm sure there's plenty of people here that will hire you if you provide your services for free.


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## DylanPope (Oct 22, 2021)

avenge said:


> According to you you already agreed to a refund which I'm clueless why you would do that to begin with. And what do you mean "ALL" they want is their money back I'm sure there's plenty of people here that will hire you if you provide your services for free.


To settle this they want their money back


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## DylanPope (Oct 22, 2021)

avenge said:


> According to you you already agreed to a refund which I'm clueless why you would do that to begin with. And what do you mean "ALL" they want is their money back I'm sure there's plenty of people here that will hire you if you provide your services for free.


And maybe I have you confused I haven’t agreed to anything yet just debating options


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

DylanPope said:


> A week later they call saying they do not want me to fix it because they have just put sod down and “there’s no way you can do it without messing it up” and then proceeded to say they wanted their money back.*I offered to return the money they paid me for my labor but since they are keeping the materials that it would only be the labor cost that gets returned.The next day I sent a text telling them I would mail them a re fund check and got a reply of “we need for you to call us so we can determine a refund amount” I’ve tried to call several times since,I’ve sent texts as well asking how much they want the check for *and haven’t gotten a response.So I’m not entirely sure what to do here or if they are going to try and sue me or if they even can I’m not sure so any advice anyone can give me will be greatly appreciated.





DylanPope said:


> And maybe I have you confused I haven’t agreed to anything yet just debating options


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## 3bar (Jan 14, 2011)

DylanPope said:


> To settle this they want their money back


All of it including material?? Unless you did a really bad job, then no way. 
Did you use proper techniques to build wall? Gravel footing, drain tile, geogrid?


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## Ohio painter (Dec 4, 2011)

If there is a problem with the wall refunding money does not correct that problem.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Get a copy of the permit and any plans filed with it. They should be able to pull it given the property address.

Also, taking photos during a build like this can save you a lot of problems.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

This could go very sideways for you. I think you're doing everything you know to make it right, but sometimes thats not what the other side really is after. You should at least consult with an attorney thats got experience in the field. It's very possible that you could refund the client, and they STILL sue you. Or maybe there's nothing wrong with the wall at all, and they just don't want to pay for it.

You mentioned that at the last minute the client changed what they wanted, bought the materials for it etc - it's highly unlikely that the wall was built according to whatever plan was filed for the permit. There is more than a slight chance that the homeowner willy nilly changed what they wanted, and when they got called out on you doing exactly what they wanted - no matter how well you did the job - that they got called on it by an inspector, and they're looking for somebody else to peg the mistake on.

Granted - part of that mistake is your own. It's one of those costly lessons in life, I hope it doesn't cost you more than it has to. Don't pile mistakes on top trying to correct previous mistakes. What I'd do if I were you, is if possible try to find out from the customer as much as possible about exactly WHAT is wrong. Not because you're second guessing them or their intentions (because its likely they failed inspection when it wasn't to plan) - but because you want to know what you did wrong so you don't do it again, and so you are informed enough to be able to correct it one way or another. But before you sign up for any remedial action - consult with a lawyer and see what they say.

The thread title says it all - you need LEGAL advice, not construction advice. Consulting a lawyer doesn't mean you're fighting them, if they act like that - reassure them that you're just trying to make things right, and want to be certain that all the T's are dotted, and I's crossed. If they're honest, they should be good with that. You don't even have to tell them you're talking to a lawyer. But you do need to be talking to one.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Here if the HO pulls the permit they are essentially the GC and the responsibility for inspections and making sure you have the working set of plans falls on them.

With that said, the very first thing you should've asked for is the plans. How do you even bid a job without them?


Mike.
*___*


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

DylanPope said:


> I’m sorry I’m new here I will know next time I was just speaking my mind trying to get advice


No apologies required, but posts can be edited. If you had cleaned it up promptly, more people would have been willing to read it and give you the help you asked for.

At this point I wouldn’t bother, as you’ve already heard from a number of members. Good luck.

More to the point, _*please*_ don’t return their money without consulting a lawyer. Brownie points aren’t worth much in this game. I’ve been skinned by clients, I’m sure plenty others here have been too. No need to skin yourself my friend.

That money is what you feed yourself with. Got family? Kids? That money is how you feed _them_.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Hey Dylan, welcome. From my experience Calidecks — Mike is right. If h/o was acting as GC, plans & procedures falls on them. But like Mike said, did you build it to plan. Footings etc, all have to be per plan. Consult a competent attorney now. Cut off communication w/owner now. Don’t dig the hole deeper.
As Tom said, they may be trying to take advantage of your youth. Maybe they feel they spent too much after doubling the size. Do you know for sure if they had plans & permit for that? Finally, don’t beat yourself up as we all — yes all have been in your shoes 1 way or another. None of us on here jumped in knowing all proper steps to any given jobs when we were young. It’s all part of Construction Education. Stick with it the trades need many hard working young men bad. Stick around & best luck to you


Mike


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Lawyer, schmoyer. These things are settled by who is in a position of strength, not necessarily as to who has the best legal position or lawyer. Hopefully they'll have their lawyer send you a nasty sounding letter. That's always a sign of weakness, because someone with a strong case has you picking a lawsuit out of your a$$.

You need to make them believe that you've done nothing wrong and are unwilling to settle. Bluff if you have to, but this is where you start. Before you even think of running up your own legal bill.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Kowboy said:


> You need to make them believe that you've done nothing wrong and are unwilling to settle


Nothing to settle if he’s compliant. Now determine that for us


Mike


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> Lawyer, schmoyer. These things are settled by who is in a position of strength, not necessarily as to who has the best legal position or lawyer. Hopefully they'll have their lawyer send you a nasty sounding letter. That's always a sign of weakness, because someone with a strong case has you picking a lawsuit out of your a$$.
> 
> You need to make them believe that you've done nothing wrong and are unwilling to settle. Bluff if you have to, but this is where you start. Before you even think of running up your own legal bill.


I don't disagree with a lot of this, other than not consulting a lawyer. It doesn't sound like time to "lawyer up" so to speak, or cut off communications with the homeowner like somebody else suggested. But bending over and giving them money back at this point - I wouldn't even consider it until the actual problem with the work has been clarified, and if they DO have a valid complaint, and you feel it's the right thing to do (as in - you ferked up and you want to make it right amicably) you need to make sure that it's really settled. You don't have to rack up huge legal bills do consult with a lawyer and figure this out.

Yes, if a lawyer sends you a nasty sounding letter when you're trying to figure it out amicably, that's a sign of weakness, and would trigger me thinking they're trying to scam you. If you cut off communications though - be prepared because they might actually HAVE a case, but are really trying to just make it right. If that's the case, and you cut off communication you WILL be picking a lawsuit out of your a$$.

The last part - if you believe you've done nothing wrong, and they just keep saying "its not up to code" or whatever - you need to find out WHAT is not up to code, and how it can be fixed, not trying to refund them and bail. If you do that, they can STILL proceed with legal actions. Don't pay twice for the same mistake. When they had a problem, you should have first hashed out what exactly the problem is. If they're being vague, and dodging simple questions like "what exactly failed on the inspection" thats red flag city.


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## Half-fast Eddie (Aug 21, 2020)

Dylan would you mind telling us what city you are in, we can look up the requirements for a retaining wall.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

We still don't know any relevant information.

Were there plans when the permit was pulled. If not, did he do a footing, use geomat, drainage, proper backfill,, do the proper steps needed, etc.

I don't do landscaping, but here if you are a landscaper, you need to have a landscaping license to do any form of landscape construction. 

If not, you can only run landscape tools and plant plants, basically maintenence.

Heck, as a GC, I can't even technically replace a sprinkler head.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

They're out to screw you. Lots of places have standard drawings, including ones for retaining walls although as pointed out 5' is likely to require a stamp. If it's built correctly and they already had the permit pulled screw them.


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## Platesurfer (Feb 9, 2019)

What's really red flagging this for me is that they supposedly had a permit, then decided to MORE THAN DOUBLE the size of the wall...

Now they are throwing this back at you where even if you were working off of a plan for a 50' wall you built it 75 feet longer than the approved plan... 

Do you have anything in writing showing they asked you to increase the size of the wall on the fly? If so things look better for you here. I'm no lawyer, or even have a ton of experience with this, just my take. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


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## Alex R (Apr 25, 2021)

I have not read the entire tread but if the wall is over certain height, you need a shopdrawings stamped by an engineer depending where you live.

Also depending on materials, supplier etc, The supplier can get you that Engineering stamp.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Lots of things around here require a wet stamp. Depends on the city.


Mike.
*___*


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## Half-fast Eddie (Aug 21, 2020)

Calidecks said:


> Lots of things around here require a wet stamp. Depends on the city.


Are they still requiring a wet stamp, vs digital?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Half-fast Eddie said:


> Are they still requiring a wet stamp, vs digital?


I've never submitted via digital. 

With that said, I'm hearing it'll all go digital eventually.


Mike.
*___*


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## fourcornerhome (Feb 19, 2008)

They're happy enough with it to throw down the sod. They just don't want to pay.


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