# The sub by the nads



## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

Double-A said:


> As for losing a sub over it, to be honest, that would be my hope. I would prefer a sub that has proven himself that underhanded and stupid to just pull off the job than to sign that document and stick the job out.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, anyone that self-centered and greedy shouldn't be called a professional and deserves to have his bluff called.


You had me right up to this point.

What are you saying?

A sub is "*underhanded and stupid"* if he does not want to sign his rights away to work in a 75 mile radius.

or

A sub is "*underhanded and stupid*" if he does not want to sign your Subcontractor contract containing:


> For instance, if one sub damages another subs work, they are responsible for the damage, period. Also, if a sub can't get in an area to work because of another subs mess, equipment or hit to the schedule, then the first sub gets paid for having to fart around or roll-up and come back later. Time is money and you screw with someones paycheck, you better be ready to pay.
> 
> This type of contract protects that and puts everyone on an even footing. You know what is expected of you, and of the other subs. No muss, no fuss.


If it is the first I vote "Evil One":shifty: 

If it is the second I probably would not vote "Evil One" BUT I would have to see the exact contract language before my final decision.  

As far as saying the sub is "underhanded and stupid" because he does not like the language of your contract  

Maybe those subs just didn't get a good feeling about the job or the GC and passed.:laughing:


----------



## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

R&S Exteriors said:


> A sub is "*underhanded and stupid"* if he does not want to sign his rights away to work in a 75 mile radius.
> 
> or
> 
> A sub is "*underhanded and stupid*" if he does not want to sign your Subcontractor contract containing: <deleted, we've all read this plenty of times>


Neither one. I'll take door #3, Monty. 

Underhanded and stupid enough to pull the junk Glass is talking about. 

R&S, what I said was, 



Double-A said:


> I would prefer a sub that has _proven_ himself that underhanded and stupid to just pull off the job than to sign that document and stick the job out.


Please note the word "proven"; its important. I have a long fuse and will tolerate a lot of guff, but what Glass has described is intolerable, rude, underhanded and stupid.

If you're gonna quote me, please be sure to get the qualifying and modifying adjectives in there. And I don't need to be prompted with loaded answers either. I excel at essay type answers. I feel multiple choice impinges on my freedom to say what's on my mind. 

Asking what I meant by "underhanded and stupid" would have worked great.:w00t:


----------



## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob's description of the event changes the point of the thread, from my view. If a sub were saying anything about me with a customer along those lines, we won't have a relationship after the fact. I don't mind telling a customer exactly what is up, when it comes to what I do and am being paid for, and what exactly the sub is going to be doing. 

I guess I am insulated from what a lot of you get into, since we usually only sub out the mechanicals, and as I posted earlier...we are very informal here.


----------



## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

Double-A said:


> Please note the word "proven"; its important. I have a long fuse and will tolerate a lot of guff, but what Glass has described is intolerable, rude, underhanded and stupid.
> 
> If you're gonna quote me, please be sure to get the qualifying and modifying adjectives in there. :w00t:


*Not sure what your complaint is. I believe I did quote you correctly with the correct adjective. See Below*



> Double-A quote form R&S Post #61
> _As for losing a sub over it, to be honest, that would be my hope. I would prefer a sub that has proven himself that underhanded and stupid to just pull off the job than to sign that document and stick the job out.__._


Your other complaint:


> Double-A
> And I don't need to be prompted with loaded answers either. I excel at essay type answers. I feel multiple choice impinges on my freedom to say what's on my mind.
> 
> Asking what I meant by "underhanded and stupid" would have worked great.:w00t:


*Isn't that exactly I asking. See below quote from my post . (what are you saying vs what do you mean.) Same thing*



> *What are you saying?*
> 
> A sub is "*underhanded and stupid"* if he does not want to sign his rights away to work in a 75 mile radius.
> 
> ...


 
Double-A
I was not trying to *"trick"* you or anything else. I was, and still am, confused with what you were trying to say in your post (#60). Probably on my end and not yours.

You did not mention Glass's situtation in that post. You started off stating


> I seem to have royally peeved some folks with *my writing*


 Then you talked about your sub contract, your Grandfather and then about how you fully appreciating a sub not wanting to sign your contract and then about the sub being underhanded and stupid for not signing the document.

Just really had (have) me confused about what your saying. Nothing personal.:thumbsup:


----------



## Peladu (Jan 8, 2006)

Alright girls, stop fighting and take a time out....


For my subs, they sign a 60 or 90 day, no-compete clause.
But that's just for the job I introduce them to.
If they get a chance to do neighbor work, then God bless.
I have had an electrician take advantage of me for four months, until I caught on. A lot of billable extras went to him, because he made a deal to come back after the renovation was over to do the 'extras'. This way, the billable extras went straight to his pocket. But most of all, I hate sneaky animals and sneaky people.

Just because I invite your family to swim in my pool doesn't give your kids the right to pee in it.


----------



## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

remember, everyone needs to eat. subs, next time you go behind a gc's back and do some shady stuff, think about the long term cost. gc's, next time you beat your unknowing subs into submission then he goes behind your back, realize why. if they willing to submarine you, maybe you haven't given them a reason to see a long term future with you on


----------



## cssconstruct (Jun 19, 2006)

What Bob is talking about is when the HO makes an us vs them situation. Trying to cut the GC out. That is just unethical in both directions..I look at things in based on my liabilty. Anything that is done while I am on a project ultimately falls upon my shoulders. People can argue what they want about who is responsible for what but to me it does not matter. A court will side against a GC 9 out of 10 times. I and most gc's just want to know all the details while we are there. After that you are more than welcome to solicit all the business you want. In our spec homes I leave a little notebook with all the subs(who want to be in it) names and numbers. My guys have gotten a lot of work on future additions, trim detail, flooring,etc. I am not trying to keep anybody from making a living. I just do not want to get screwed because somebody agreed to something I did not know about. I think that is fair enough. A lot of the trade guys say well it's just a switch, or a couple of tile, but at the end of the day if something goes wrong I was the one that brought you into the job and it will be my a** swinging in the breeze.


----------



## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

cssconstruct said:


> What Bob is talking about is when the HO makes an us vs them situation. Trying to cut the GC out. That is just unethical in both directions..I look at things in based on my liabilty. Anything that is done while I am on a project ultimately falls upon my shoulders. People can argue what they want about who is responsible for what but to me it does not matter. A court will side against a GC 9 out of 10 times. I and most gc's just want to know all the details while we are there. After that you are more than welcome to solicit all the business you want. In our spec homes I leave a little notebook with all the subs(who want to be in it) names and numbers. My guys have gotten a lot of work on future additions, trim detail, flooring,etc. I am not trying to keep anybody from making a living. I just do not want to get screwed because somebody agreed to something I did not know about. I think that is fair enough. A lot of the trade guys say well it's just a switch, or a couple of tile, but at the end of the day if something goes wrong I was the one that brought you into the job and it will be my a** swinging in the breeze.


 
Sounds more than reasonable to me. Anything have to do with the HO belongs to the GC. I will not even discuss changes or additional work with a HO when I am the sub. I always refer them to the GC

On the flip side if a neighbor, friend or passerby admires my (Specific) work and ask for estimate on their home I'm giving the estimate. I don't see anything unethical at all about that. I'm a business man too.


----------



## cssconstruct (Jun 19, 2006)

R&S Exteriors said:


> Sounds more than reasonable to me. Anything have to do with the HO belongs to the GC. I will not even discuss changes or additional work with a HO when I am the sub. I always refer them to the GC
> 
> On the flip side if a neighbor, friend or passerby admires my (Specific) work and ask for estimate on their home I'm giving the estimate. I don't see anything unethical at all about that. I'm a business man too.



I have no problem with that. I look at it from the side of I am providing a total job for someone. You provide a specific service. If a neighbor has a need for your service give it. I would provide the reference. Hopefully if they need more than just the specific service, you provide my reference. That is just good business.


----------



## Peladu (Jan 8, 2006)

It all breaks down to common courtesy.

Those who have no common sense, have trouble with common courtesy.

More people today in general, have very little common courtesy.

my .02


----------



## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

cssconstruct said:


> I have no problem with that. I look at it from the side of I am providing a total job for someone. You provide a specific service. If a neighbor has a need for your service give it. I would provide the reference. Hopefully if they need more than just the specific service, you provide my reference. That is just good business.


I would not only recommend the GC to the neighbor if the neighbor was looking for more than a specific service. I recommend GC's that are good to me to people I come across that had nothing to do with any project they hired me for.

Your right that is good business. Take care of each other and everyone will prosper. Treat each other as fellow business men and not master/slave.:thumbsup:


----------



## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

When a GC calls me to provide electrical services at a job, I am NOT a subcontractor.
I am functioning as an independent specialty contractor.
I am required to hold a license as an electrical contractor, be insured as such, get a permit [on my own], have my work inspected, and provide electrical installation services to the GC on a contract basis.
The only time I am a subcontractor is if the GC is an electrical contractor.
Any work I do for the GC is billed to him/her/them/it.
ANY modifications to the scope of work I provide at their request must be approved by them, even if instigated by the property owner.
I TELL people that I am the electrical contractor installing the electrical portion of so-and-so's work. 
Anything I do that the owner would normally call the GC for otherwise, or that would normally require the GC to perform, I direct to the GC.
But, if it is an unrelated electrical issue, not contiguous to the GC's project, it is 100% mine. ... and I invoice the owner separately.
... unless I am truly subcontracting electrical work.
Then all the owner knows is that "Joe Blow Electric" sent me to fix, install, etc.
Any work I get then just goes on Joe Blow's billhead as an extra.



R&S Exteriors said:


> :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy
> 
> Must be a Pennsylvania thing


I guess so ...

... unless you guys who claim to be GCs are simply salesmen and brokers ... [and I won't work for them there critters ...]

next thing you'll be claiming that we have to pay you for the job we got from the guy in the 7-11 parking lot from the sign on our truck, because "you wouldn't have been getting a drink there if you hadn't been on my job...."
Get stuffed


----------



## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

*tsk! tsk!*



Double-A said:


> For you that see me as the 'evil one', understand that I don't use a non-compete clause. I do, however, use a subcontractor contract.


naughty boy ...
Agreement before the fact is always much more valuable than confusion and bluster later.
Most problems [exclusive of outright dishonesty] arise from divergent expectations and beliefs


----------



## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

RobertWilber said:


> naughty boy ...
> Agreement before the fact is always much more valuable than confusion and bluster later.
> Most problems [exclusive of outright dishonesty] arise from divergent expectations and beliefs


<nod>


----------



## Scott736 (Jun 28, 2006)

Just wanted to add my two cents as a siding sub.... I think it would be a good Idea for your company to offer some kinda referal fee for your subs if they send the business to you..Maybe even get them some empty referals to keep with them on jobsites.. I often times send the work to the Company I am subbing for but (Bill)The guy that runs and owns it is really good to me so I return the favor as much as possible. If I know he has plenty I may take smaller jobs through HO's.. I just think a referal program would be an incentive to get you the work an keep your subs happy..As for the no-Compete forms you all are talking about I wouldnt sign one unless the company was gonna start paying me a salary or somethin...


----------

