# Helpers



## billybrick (Aug 13, 2012)

How do you guys find and/or keep good help??


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## Blkhilconst (Jul 26, 2012)

I usually get helpers from fellow contractors with little bro's or kids. Work 'em hard, if they last a week and want to keep working give them a small bump in pay. With your trade good luck tho, carting hod is a tougher job for a helper than most trades


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

billybrick said:


> How do you guys find and/or keep good help??





Pay good money,if you pay peanuts you will only attract monkeys.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

It's tough. I find I can usually get a helper to the point that they can mix mud, set up scaff and load it, cut with a quick cut etc... But getting them along further where they WANT to be is tough. And I always tell them, i WANT to pay you more money because if I'm giving you a raise, it means you're doing more work and better. They always either expect to be at that point before they are or are just incapabke of getting to that point. I wish there were more intelligent people that didn't mind working hard. I just want to find someone that can make me a bit of money, not just save me money, the money I save barely compensates for the extra paperwork involved. I had a guy who was already trained but was waiting for a job to start with his real boss. He could labour for me and lay just enough, somedays even more, in a day to cover his costs. What a dream 3 days that was.

My major problem is i don't do the same thing often enough. A whole month laying manufactured stone, then a week re-pointing, another couple weeks doing some brick repairs, then some stone repair, back to some re-pointing but in a different style or material, some block, some natural stone etc...Hard for someone to learn it all without me getting frustrated and them losing interest


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Believe it or not, i've had very good luck with Labor Ready. Not the kind of helper you would generally leave alone on a job, but 90% have been good. I even hired one. With me for a couple years until he thought he saw greener grass out of state. Said he'd rather be back here.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

I use my over strong and under smart cousins usually, if they aren't available I call my dad.

Other than that I do most things by myself. Things that require extra guys I just call in some other contractors I know, makes the day a lot easier when everyone present has a good idea of what is going on.

The problem with getting other young guys is that when they are learning it is tough to pay them more than 10 bucks an hour because they don't know anything, but as most of us know, mason tending is tough work. Not many guys want to stick with it for long when you can get similar money flipping burgers and slacking off.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> It's tough. I find I can usually get a helper to the point that they can mix mud, set up scaff and load it, cut with a quick cut etc... But getting them along further where they WANT to be is tough. And I always tell them, i WANT to pay you more money because if I'm giving you a raise, it means you're doing more work and better. They always either expect to be at that point before they are or are just incapabke of getting to that point. I wish there were more intelligent people that didn't mind working hard. I just want to find someone that can make me a bit of money, not just save me money, the money I save barely compensates for the extra paperwork involved. I had a guy who was already trained but was waiting for a job to start with his real boss. He could labour for me and lay just enough, somedays even more, in a day to cover his costs. What a dream 3 days that was.
> 
> My major problem is i don't do the same thing often enough. A whole month laying manufactured stone, then a week re-pointing, another couple weeks doing some brick repairs, then some stone repair, back to some re-pointing but in a different style or material, some block, some natural stone etc...Hard for someone to learn it all without me getting frustrated and them losing interest


That's how I learned. I worked for one guy for almost 4 years doing exactly that, we would be pouring a floor one day, then cultured stone the next. I got **** pay for a lot of hard work but I am like a sponge when doing technical skills and can retain knowledge well. I bounced around to a few other companies for a few years before deciding I wanted the big bucks

Still waiting on the big bucks, but at least I make my own schedule now and everyone I do work for loves it.


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## billybrick (Aug 13, 2012)

Interesting, how do customers feel about you having temp guys? This sounds like it may be a good option for me.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Most times they don't even realize it. They never ask. I would tell them if they did.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I work alone.


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## cdkyle (Jul 12, 2009)

billybrick said:


> How do you guys find and/or keep good help??


Never put a trowel in their hand. Once you do, they think they are too good to actually labor. Just my .02


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

I have an opportunity to bring in a guy from the union who has ten years in. Not much trowel time at all other than during apprenticeship, but he knows the restoration and fire control side really well. 

He wants a chance to move out of the big city and back home where he and his wife were raised. 

Giving it some serious thought right now.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Ive never met a union guy I got along with. They all have this attitude, which wouldnt be bad if they also didnt think they were too important to bend over and pick up a bucket....

Maybe since he isnt a mason yet he isnt ruined.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

I can't say for sure til I see him work, but his head is screwed on right. 

On Sat. "John" told his boss of 10 years that 7 days of 10 hrs without any end in sight is not going to cut it for his young family. (1.5 kids)

Boss singled him out in front of the whole crew (15) on Monday morning and ripped him a new one for being lazy, good for nothing...

"John" is 3 or 4 on Sr. list, never late, never sick, climbs a 40' ladder like its a walk in the park, but will not stay with the guy after Monday's treatment even if he has to flip burgers. 

Strange outfit. they don't offer vacation time and "John" is one of the few that takes a week unpaid in the summer just to get away. Says the pay is good, but the benefits suck and he ends up paying all his medical bills out of pocket?

He claims they have never missed one week of work in the whole time he has been there and lately the crew has ballooned up to 15 trying to keep up. Now the boss is forcing Sunday work to stay on schedule. A lot of the co-workers love the money, but obviously no life outside of work.

SHTF when "John" refused to work Sunday #4 in a row, just because they were busy. In the past they have had to work Sunday on occasion to complete work while a factory was shut down, but only once in a while. This came up as the new normal and is a deal killer for him no matter what the pay. 

I respect and completely believe the young man, I have recruited him for the last five years, but he has always been fat and happy. My phone rang Tuesday and I was flat on the couch with the flu, thought I was taking too much medication. 

We had a long conversation last night and he is leaving regardless, but is going to check around other union crews. He is concerned that the boss is going to black list him as the town is not big enough for him to just disappear into the labor pool.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

You can always give him a chance....:thumbsup:

You are not adopting or marrying him....:whistling

I have seem blacklisted, blackballed and bad mouthed guys turn out to be great individuals & employees....:thumbup:

Sometimes a guy just needs to feel appreciated...

and not be browbeat just because he takes a breath....:thumbup:


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Not adopting, but I am a little old fashioned and would love to lead this young family back to our barely surviving little community. I know his family, I know her folks by first, middle and last name, they are good people.

If it goes to the crapper I will end up being the bad guy.:whistling


Why can't I look on the positive side and see the benefits if it goes well...?:laughing:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

I understand the concept of old fashioned and small town politics...:thumbsup:

You know his family & him, must be some mutual respect & understanding there....:thumbsup:

Tell them & him you want to give him a shot, but if he doesn't fit with your company you don't want to hear about it....:thumbsup:

Face to face conversation is a VERY powerful tool that is quickly becoming an ancient art with the advent of email & texting....:thumbsup:


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Funny you mention it, I don't think he emails at all. I got an email today thanking me for the meeting and looking forward to whatever, but I am sure it was from his wife...:laughing:

This would be my first stab at qualified help. I have had so many kids and out of work helpers and worthless dead beats, that I went solo back around Christmas. 

Problem is I am not getting projects completed timely enough and customers are starting to notice. Bottom line is hurting as well so I am pretty sure this solo flight around the world is about to crash and burn.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

dakzaag said:


> ...I am pretty sure this solo flight around the world is about to crash and burn....


Do not crash & burn...:thumbsup:

Improvise, adapt & overcome...failure is not an option...:thumbsup:

ALWAYS more than one way to skin the proverbial cat...:thumbup:


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

Finding good help isn't always easy, but a good tender is worth his weight in gold......most have come to me, sometimes I've just stolen them from another trade.

A great tender has to work hard, but has to think two steps ahead at all times.......have a real hop in their step.......and preferably one that doesn't bump their gums all day......or at all, that's OK with me.....

But you _have to pay_ for good help.......I don't even _want_ a ten dollar an hour guy...........those guys should be working for the DPW.......if you can offer full weeks and steady pay, you can snipe short order cooks, deli workers, janitors, whatever.......

You gotta pay for great help though.......a really good tender will do twice the work of even a decent one........and you wanna keep them happy........


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Rockmonster said:


> Finding good help isn't always easy, but a good tender is worth his weight in gold......most have come to me, sometimes I've just stolen them from another trade.
> 
> 
> You gotta pay for great help though.......a really good tender will do twice the work of even a decent one........and you wanna keep them happy........



There is much wisdom in these statements. I pay my tenders just slightly under mason wages. The fact of the matter is, several tenders actually earn more per year than most masons. Reasons being,they log more hours per year that offsets the slight reduction in pay. They start between .50--1 hr before masons,usually put in a extra .50 hr. at end of day,we do our own wash down (tenders not masons) between scaffold erection and break down along with travel time to next location it is easy for them to put in considerably more yearly hrs. and consequently more money.


You need to think of the tenders as a integral and valuable part of the team and treat them accordingly. Talk to them with respect and set the stage for all others to do likewise. The crew will then in most instances establish a certain cohesiveness that will aid in production and make for a very pleasant work environment and consequently likewise day.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

All sounds good FJ but I will work with blood dripping down my arm in the rain with no lunch. All I get is cry cry cry. Money wont fix that. There is no mental tough help any more. They all want to be coddled and told life will be rainbows and unicorns. Yes, it will, but you have to stand in the pouring rain from time to time when its freezing cold with no lunch. Bleeding is optional.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

If I "have" to work with blood dripping down my arm in the rain, I need to seek a different line of work.

If I choose to work in those conditions, I might need to see a Shrink. Or I might just want to finish what I'm working on.


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## renov8r (Feb 16, 2013)

I use a bunch of guys I've met over the years. Usually pay them flat rate for the day for x amount of hours. I start at 100 dollars and work from there up depending on the job. I tell them what needs to be done and when we are done they can leave.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

JBM said:


> All sounds good FJ but I will work with blood dripping down my arm in the rain with no lunch. All I get is cry cry cry. Money wont fix that. There is no mental tough help any more. They all want to be coddled and told life will be rainbows and unicorns. Yes, it will, but you have to stand in the pouring rain from time to time when its freezing cold with no lunch. Bleeding is optional.


If you're getting cry, cry, cry........you probably have the wrong guys......thirty years in business and I've honestly never heard that....(at least, not to my face)

If someone's a plug, I won't let them get past 3, 4 days, ever. Everyone (almost everyone) is good on day one. If they take a step back on day two, they're either a) not a great worker, or b) not into the job. 

It's not rocket science......it's just hard work and foresight, so the good ones will start seeing the process quickly. As far as coddling and rainbows and unicorns.........I don't often see that, I'm sure those guys exist........but it's like fishing.........the quicker you cull, the quicker you can find the keeper. There are tons of great workers.......and when you find one that you would hate to lose, that's when you'll find a way to keep him happy.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I know I'm not in the same industry but there is a big difference between a helper and an employee that you take the time to train to work on his own. My helpers are always short term low pay positions, university students hungry for work in the summer, young guys between jobs. A helper position isn't a careen it's lugging tools and running wires.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

JBM said:


> All sounds good FJ but I will work with blood dripping down my arm in the rain with no lunch. All I get is cry cry cry. Money wont fix that. There is no mental tough help any more. They all want to be coddled and told life will be rainbows and unicorns. Yes, it will, but you have to stand in the pouring rain from time to time when its freezing cold with no lunch. Bleeding is optional.


I used to do stuff like that. Now I skip it.

The only exception is if the work has to get done right now, we have all been in that situation and it sucks, but luckily they are few and far between.

Also, I eat lunch when I can. I work hard for a living, no point in being miserable while I do it.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

sitdwnandhngon said:


> Also, I eat lunch when I can. I work hard for a living, no point in being miserable while I do it.






We always eat lunch at the appointed time every day come heck or high water. In the summer time I try to provide a cook out at a minimum every other week or more often if possible. It is always on Friday. I provide the grill,90 % of the meat,lots of times it really is a pot luck from there. Some bring potato salad,watermelon etc. A tender will light the grill at the right time and someone starts the food so it will be ready close to whatever is our usual lunch time.


With all this said,I try real hard to keep lunch time light,talk fishing weekends etc. not shop. With that being the norm,when it absolutely needs to get done I will use a portion of lunch to talk shop,always real brief and under those circumstances I always have everyone's ear.


I believe these things are a needed must,they provide a chance to recharge batteries and production always benefits,never suffers.


An old time horse trainer gave me this bit of wisdom many years ago. It goes like this, "if you go about to train a horse like you have 15 minutes it will take all day,if you go about it like you have all day it will take only 15 minutes. I know that this can be applied to almost all things in life if we but try it.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

fjn said:


> We always eat lunch at the appointed time every day come heck or high water. In the summer time I try to provide a cook out at a minimum every other week or more often if possible. It is always on Friday. I provide the grill,90 % of the meat,lots of times it really is a pot luck from there. Some bring potato salad,watermelon etc. A tender will light the grill at the right time and someone starts the food so it will be ready close to whatever is our usual lunch time.
> 
> 
> With all this said,I try real hard to keep lunch time light,talk fishing weekends etc. not shop. With that being the norm,when it absolutely needs to get done I will use a portion of lunch to talk shop,always real brief and under those circumstances I always have everyone's ear.
> ...


You guys hiring :whistling


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## 17Egress12 (Jul 10, 2009)

*Employees*

I have three men, 5 years, 9 years and 13 years, they work their butts off, don't need me to coddle them or stand over them. All of my customers like them and constantly complement me on them.

I could use a 4th man--but--my men lay CMUs, use shovel/pick, install temporary steel supports, demo block walls, place concrete, etc. a "mason" is out. All 3 came from other contractors, all received ojt here.

I will pay a 4th man whatever he is worth--no drugs, no smoking etc. That eliminates most prospective employees. My crew won't tolerate some one who can't keep up with them, even if it is a friend.

We do only residential, no new construction so I have to be a bit picky who I hire. Tried a "man?" recently who wasn't getting enuff hours with his present boss, hell he had to take rest breaks too often, used a customers toilet and left a mess-bye-bye. Enuff bitching for now.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

We have the same issues with helpers.....I was starting to wonder if it was me since I came out of a corporate background and just got thrown into this. I was wondering if it was the heavy materials or my personality! :laughing::laughing:

Our son is saving up for a car so he is on deck this summer. He's a good kid and works hard. 

The other day I was talking to one of our GCs for a bit and he is having trouble also.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Something tells me that JBM is talking about doing whatever it takes to get the job done and get on to the next one, if that means a bit of blood and some rain so be it. I really don't think that he's saying that his idea of good time is getting injured on the job and standing in the rain. 

It's dedication. I have a hard time finding it too. Finding an employee that sees that what is good for me (my business) is ultimately good for them as well. If my business is not doing well there is little reason to hire someone. And if they are only around for the easy jobs then what's the point.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

How the help in Poland does it.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=24a_1375478088


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Good sticky mud.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

Good grief! I could have had 2 or 3 pails of mud up in that amount of time.


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