# Tracks or Tires



## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

With the economy the way it is do i go and rent or buy skid loader with tracks or do I buy a set of tracks for my wheeled skid loader I see a lot of hi drive CTLs (compact track loaders) I am getting more and more jobs in sand need advise!:w00t:


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## digdeep516 (Jun 8, 2009)

id go with the track machine if your not gonna be on concrete alot... look into bobcat there t320 is a beast in just about anything... what type of skid are you useing now cause there offering verry i repeat VERRRY generous trade in values + government rebates on there new machines.


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

It is an older 1840 Case. 1997 or 1998


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

digdeep516 said:


> id go with the track machine if your not gonna be on concrete alot... look into bobcat there t320 is a beast in just about anything... what type of skid are you useing now cause there offering verry i repeat VERRRY generous trade in values + government rebates on there new machines.


 What does being on concrete have to do with tracks this is new to me what will happen.


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## DaveVB (May 1, 2006)

The general consensus is "tracks for dirt, tires for concrete/asphalt". 
Whatever you are doing in dirt, tracks are the better option; traction, smoother ride, better control of bucket etc.....
Concrete/asphalt is going to tear either one up in time, but tires are cheaper to replace.


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## digdeep516 (Jun 8, 2009)

the concrete and the asphalt takes a beatin on the tracks... tight turns and constant manuvering on the concrete will signifigantly decrease the lifetime of the tracks... and yess to replace a set of tracks the cost is much greater sometimes 2 as much as replacing a set of tires and for a machine like that youd probably be better off trading it in... hows it been to you repair wise


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

To DaveVB and digdeep516 I see where you are coming from big time sand paper thank you. On the serious side if a person was to rent or by a CTL just how steep of a grade can they handel straight up and straight down not across the face.


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## DBRhino (Oct 2, 2009)

if your going to be working in alot of sand. I would get the CTL


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## eXpatRioteX (Jan 26, 2007)

The add on steel tracks are very heavy, and can really bog a machine down. You wont be able to push as much dirt around, even with the added traction. Also, if you get to turning in gravel or stone there is a good risk of snapping the track bolts. But on steep grades, they really help weigh you down.

I had a takeuchi with rubber tracks, and i really liked that machine. It left far less rutts than a wheeled machine if i was careful with my turns. The rubber tracks didnt pull up mud either. The big drawback is that the rubber wears out really fast running on concrete and blacktop.

I think i've run everything except maybe a john deere.


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## MBS (Mar 20, 2008)

sandbager said:


> To DaveVB and digdeep516 I see where you are coming from big time sand paper thank you. On the serious side if a person was to rent or by a CTL just how steep of a grade can they handel straight up and straight down not across the face.


You can run on a 100% slope up and down. Rubber tracks are the way to go if you're doing mostly dirt work. Tracks in sand however will eat the drive sprockets, front and rear idlers, and the embedded driving track lugs away very quickly, long before the rubber wears thin. Figure 400 hours max on a set of sprockets and tracks with mostly sandy soils work.

Tracks can run $3500 a pair and sprockets another $1500, plus installation. If you get a CTL make sure you charge more than for a tired machine to cover the added costs. The track wear in sand costs an average of $12.50 per hour over their lifetime.


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

MBS said:


> You can run on a 100% slope up and down. Rubber tracks are the way to go if you're doing mostly dirt work. Tracks in sand however will eat the drive sprockets, front and rear idlers, and the embedded driving track lugs away very quickly, long before the rubber wears thin. Figure 400 hours max on a set of sprockets and tracks with mostly sandy soils work.
> 
> Tracks can run $3500 a pair and sprockets another $1500, plus installation. If you get a CTL make sure you charge more than for a tired machine to cover the added costs. The track wear in sand costs an average of $12.50 per hour over their lifetime.


 How much does a person charge for a rental mach. to the customer per hour I have the job on a bib and have some built in on a rental mach. but not enough to purchase one .


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## digdeep516 (Jun 8, 2009)

work something out with the machine rental place... figure out the expected amount of hours and work with the rental company... last time i rented from sunbelt rentals (all green equipment) they had an option where you could buy a block of hours (lets say 50 to 75) for a set price and if you were over youd have to pay the up charge... but otherwise its hard because unless your renting by the day the price can start to spin out of control verry fast.


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

digdeep going to talk to local dealer and pump him up and see if I can get some of it on demo time let me try this thing man come-on-man.


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## digdeep516 (Jun 8, 2009)

yeah i hear ya... most rental places are willing to work with you if your going to tie the machine up for a good bit of time, they arent so apt if your just lookin at it for a day or 2.


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

Oh this is a 30 day deal or more good size project plus I will have cold days and snow days mixed in.


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## MBS (Mar 20, 2008)

sandbager said:


> Oh this is a 30 day deal or more good size project plus I will have cold days and snow days mixed in.


Sandbager, where are you located? Could you PM me?


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

MBS said:


> Sandbager, where are you located? Could you PM me?


I am having a dickens of a time trying to find how to private message ya MBS. might need to have you walk me throught that.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

put your curser over his name ,click, and select send private message in the flyout menu.


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

MBS said:


> Sandbager, where are you located? Could you PM me?


 I think to make this work you will have to message me first and I will reply back to you.


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## scrapecc (May 11, 2009)

Just so you know, there are a set of slightly used rubber tracks that go over wheeled skid steers on chicago craigslist right now they seem pretty cheap. let me know if you can't find them.:thumbsup:


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

Thank you I have an appointment with my dealer going to see if we can work out a demo deal on some of this then rent the balance. If I see the tracked CTL work out good I may purchase. Should be able to genarate plenty of work for it. Need to decide on model and size don't want one to big and not be able to get into those hard to get at spots. Thanks for help.
Has any body ever drove a skid loader on tracks withthe pilot control pattern travel and steering in left hand and bucket-boom in right hand?


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## digdeep516 (Jun 8, 2009)

sandbager said:


> Thank you I have an appointment with my dealer going to see if we can work out a demo deal on some of this then rent the balance. If I see the tracked CTL work out good I may purchase. Should be able to genarate plenty of work for it. Need to decide on model and size don't want one to big and not be able to get into those hard to get at spots. Thanks for help.
> Has any body ever drove a skid loader on tracks withthe pilot control pattern travel and steering in left hand and bucket-boom in right hand?


yeah my t320 bobcat runs those controls... i was a diehard foot and hand controls untill i needed to rent a machine with them... they make life so much easier and are less fatigueing on the operator... by the way where are you going to look at a machine


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## NICKPAUS (May 11, 2008)

sandbager said:


> Thank you I have an appointment with my dealer going to see if we can work out a demo deal on some of this then rent the balance. If I see the tracked CTL work out good I may purchase. Should be able to genarate plenty of work for it. Need to decide on model and size don't want one to big and not be able to get into those hard to get at spots. Thanks for help.
> Has any body ever drove a skid loader on tracks withthe pilot control pattern travel and steering in left hand and bucket-boom in right hand?


 My Cat Skidsteer has this type of controls with a gas peddle for extra power when needed. I had to use a newer bobcat 185 recently and it seems abouty half as efficent as the Cat. Only problem with Cat tracked units is cost of idlers and tracks. The Cat backhoe attachment also operates from inside cab unlike bobcat where there is another seat outside machine.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

sandbager said:


> How much does a person charge for a rental mach. to the customer per hour I have the job on a bib and have some built in on a rental mach. but not enough to purchase one .


In general rental places have three rates, daily, weekly, monthly (or more accurately, 4 weekly. A month in the world of rentals is 28 days.) Rates will be significantly lower on a monthly rate, and all the rental salesman in my area are starving to death right now, making negotiations very favorable to the contractor. Also, remember that three days equals a week, 3 weeks equals a month. Don't send a unit back after 3 weeks and 2 days, go ahead and get your full 28 days out of it.


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

digdeep516 said:


> yeah my t320 bobcat runs those controls... i was a diehard foot and hand controls untill i needed to rent a machine with them... they make life so much easier and are less fatigueing on the operator... by the way where are you going to look at a machine


 My Miller Bradford salesman is going to stop by. Might look at a bobcat and a cat as long as I am looking have all case eq. now and happy with it.


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

NICKPAUS said:


> My Cat Skidsteer has this type of controls with a gas peddle for extra power when needed. I had to use a newer bobcat 185 recently and it seems abouty half as efficent as the Cat. Only problem with Cat tracked units is cost of idlers and tracks. The Cat backhoe attachment also operates from inside cab unlike bobcat where there is another seat outside machine.


 Don't have alot of room on the job that this tracked unit will be used going to need some space like a football field to practice in manuvering around. Another thing is what size mach.do I look at,is what I have is 750' of shoreline that needs r/r and i will have lots of snow to move.The sand spoil from basement digging scatered all over the place (Dif. Contractor got the boot) needs to be gathered up and hauled off site. If you know any thing about basswood trees they like to grow in clumps of 4-6 dirt piled up 6' all around on several clumps lots of #2 going on here.:furious:


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## wyoming 1 (May 7, 2008)

If you plan on moving snow I would not go with tracks, the lbs per square inch is way low and they slide every where. A wheeled machine with a set of chains is almost unstopable in the snow.


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

I was wondering about that. Still have 1840 with tires and chains.


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

It looks like it is going to be the CTL440 by Case SWEET Machine. I like that pilot control set up drive and steering in left hand bucket and boom in right hand. Man can you crank the donuts and fast.


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## eXpatRioteX (Jan 26, 2007)

sandbager said:


> Thank you I have an appointment with my dealer going to see if we can work out a demo deal on some of this then rent the balance. If I see the tracked CTL work out good I may purchase. Should be able to genarate plenty of work for it. Need to decide on model and size don't want one to big and not be able to get into those hard to get at spots. Thanks for help.
> Has any body ever drove a skid loader on tracks withthe pilot control pattern travel and steering in left hand and bucket-boom in right hand?


I've run Gehl and Takeuchi set up this way, it took a while to get used to as i had been running hand and foot controls for years. As long as i stay moving and constantly have the controls engaged i'm fine. If i stop for more than a few seconds i try to mash the fake pedals on the floor only to realize they dont do anything.

Donuts are gunna wear those rubber track out in no time.



sandbager said:


> It looks like it is going to be the CTL440 by Case SWEET Machine. I like that pilot control set up drive and steering in left hand bucket and boom in right hand. Man can you crank the donuts and fast.


I hate Case skid steers. The bucket design is awful. I like being able to see the edge of the bucket, and you cannot do that with a Case. Case also seems to have the highest center of gravity, so easiest to tip, especially on hills and bumps and while holding a high load. Be very careful, keep your laborers and crew back. The forward tip is the worst, stay in the cab.

Also watchout for the Case autofloat feature. It can be tricky/dangerous.



sandbager said:


> Don't have alot of room on the job that this tracked unit will be used going to need some space like a football field to practice in manuvering around. Another thing is what size mach.do I look at,is what I have is 750' of shoreline that needs r/r and i will have lots of snow to move.The sand spoil from basement digging scatered all over the place (Dif. Contractor got the boot) needs to be gathered up and hauled off site. If you know any thing about basswood trees they like to grow in clumps of 4-6 dirt piled up 6' all around on several clumps lots of #2 going on here.:furious:


Be real carefull around that water. Make sure you know how to operate the emergency exit (the back window).


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

1) The donuts I was talking about was on glear ice, snow pack. Oh I can imagine big old sanding block I under stand.
2) Working near water in the solid form 15' to 20' of sand beach and then tapers out to the ice, should not have to go on ice. I hope!
3) CASE does not make the buckets for any thing they sell. To make it so you will like CASE EQ. you ask your sales man that I would like to look at my bucket opptions on my old 1840 I have a custom built by Central Fab. Low profile extra deep genral purpose bucket. The 440 CTL is going to come with a Esco Low Profile Extreme duty with bolt on cutting edge and side wear plates. If you DO NOT ask you will get the bucket designed for pine needles,leaves,and rasberry brush, VERY LIGHT DUTY! ! A stock bucket comes with no extra cost . A custom Bucket upgrade is $100.00 more. Do you like the CASE MACH. with forks on it?
4) Oh and the tipping thing oh you can bet your life no load will be lifted other than what the mach. can do. I did a compare the compatision sheet on the net on the cat.gehl, bobcat,and mustang.And the CASE 440 was 2nd to cat for all around catigories. Except price:w00t:


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

If you have a New Holland dealer near you, you might want to look at the C-175.

It beats the Case 440, has better visibility, weighs less and has higher lift capacities. 

I own a C-175 and it is quickly becoming one of my favorite machines.

Pushed snow with it last week, and with the exception of sliding around on the ice, it would really move the snow. 

Sorry to give you one more option, but if you do a legit comparison the New Holland beats the others.


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

As you know Case owns New Holland and Kobelko I don't have a problem with any other brands at all . Is what I am after is what kind of service do I get after the sale. MBR is willing to bend-over back wards to service you.Call at 9-9:30 and they will be at job site by noon that is something that has creditablity and satifacsion. Kinda like the Chevy,Ford Dodge, Toyota thing ya know.........


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

sandbager said:


> As you know Case owns New Holland and Kobelko I don't have a problem with any other brands at all . Is what I am after is what kind of service do I get after the sale. MBR is willing to bend-over back wards to service you......


Dealer support is important that is why my post started with "if you have a NH dealer near you"...

Some of the Case/NewHolland/Kobelco equipment is nearly identical, just re badged and different paint colors. This is not so with the Skidsteers and Compact Track Loaders.

It is not a Chevy/Ford type comparison, there are real differences in the two machines, here are a couple specs for each and my reasons why I prefer the NH.

Operating weight: 
Case 440CT 8,925 lbs.
NH C-175 7,535 lbs.

Engine Horse Power: 
Case 440CT 90 gross.
NH C-175 60 gross.

Rated Operating load @ 35%: 
Case 440CT 2,100 lbs.
NH C-175 2,200 lbs.

Now, looking at the numbers what I see is that the Case weighs more has a larger engine, and will accomplish pretty much the same "work" that a lighter loader with a smaller engine will accomplish.

The NH will have better flotation due to decreased weight, the tracks/undercarrige would theoretically last longer. It will burn less fuel each day because of the smaller engine.

These are just my observations, and some of the things I take into account when shopping for equipment. 
I by no means am putting down the Case loaders, or any others, they are fine machines. 
Nor am I making any judgement on your choice of machinery, we all have our preferences, get what will work best for you, in your situation.


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## digdeep516 (Jun 8, 2009)

Not trying to bash the case but the one machine i owned was a piece of S*#$.... had it for about 3 months and put less than 150 hours on the thing when i told them to take it back, compared to bobcat it dosent feel like it has the "omph" even though they were similar sized machines... was in the repair shop multiple times and was overalll not impressed. Personally the only machine with which id stray from bobcat would be caterpillar, not because they contain the same prefix lol but because of the quality of cat machines, most of my fleet is caterpillar i just cant seem to justify speniding 70,000 on a ctl... for a comparable size bobcat you can knock about 20 of the top with all the bells and whistles...


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

tgeb said:


> Dealer support is important that is why my post started with "if you have a NH dealer near you"...
> 
> Some of the Case/NewHolland/Kobelco equipment is nearly identical, just re badged and different paint colors. This is not so with the Skidsteers and Compact Track Loaders.
> 
> ...


I don't want to disagree with any one but in this case I disagree.
The 440CT is not in the same weight class or hp. class as the NH C 175 in smaller machines under 10,000 lbs they need to be within 100-200 lbs. not 1400 lbs case has a machine in that class it is the 420CT . A person can't compare the 160 class excavators that means 160 metric ton to the 290's or the 300's = 290 or 300 metric ton etc. or even more the 400 class this is how big of a gap you are compareing in the larger excavators. In the smaller weights of CTL's. Inline four cyl. or a V8 is not close either!


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

You and I have a difference idea of weight classification.

I see the weight class of CTL's as what the machine will lift, as that will tell you how much "work" you can get out of the loader.



> Rated Operating load @ 35%:
> Case 440CT 2,100 lbs.
> NH C-175 2,200 lbs.


These two loaders are almost equal in their ability to lift @ 35% of their tipping weight.

The Case loader is costing you 1,400 lbs of additional iron that is giving you no additional benefit. It is also costing you 30 additional HP which equates to more fuel burned per hour, with no increase in the work output.

I don't think the weight classification method used for excavators is the same method used for CTL's and Skidsteer's. It has always been my understanding that lifting capability is how loaders are rated, if that is true the 440 and the 175 are on par with each other. If they are rated by how heavy the loader is with no regard for what it can actually do, then I stand corrected.


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

No problem the CTL is new to me . I dont even know if I will like it but it might take a while to get used to it. Thank you for input everything it cool. Happy New Year to you and your family......


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Thanks, SB! Happy New Year to you also. arty:

Once you get the hang of those pilot controls, you will love them, much less operator fatigue.


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## plummen (Jan 9, 2010)

i use my t250 around dirt sand,rubber tires are pretty helpless in sand in my experiance unless you like digging your self out a lot.you just need to make sure to run it through the carwash really good after running around in sand to keep things cleaned out and keep it greased but thats just normal maintenance on any machine. :thumbsup:


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## sandbager (Dec 19, 2009)

plummen said:


> i use my t250 around dirt sand,rubber tires are pretty helpless in sand in my experiance unless you like digging your self out a lot.you just need to make sure to run it through the carwash really good after running around in sand to keep things cleaned out and keep it greased but thats just normal maintenance on any machine. :thumbsup:


How often do wash the machine down?;


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## plummen (Jan 9, 2010)

during the summer months i try and scrub all my tractors down atleast once a week with a hotsie,but i hate greaseball equipment.in the winter it depends on the weather and how much they get used :thumbsup:


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## The Baron (May 22, 2010)

I've got a couple of Case skid-steers in the fleet (a 420 and a 445). They both have rubber tires and bolt-over Loegering steel tracks. The tracks aren't too hard to put on/off - about 1/2 hour to get them off and maybe an hour and change to get them back on. Hardest part is handling the tracks when not in use as they are heavy. This setup makes my skid-steers extremely versatile - tires on asphalt, concrete or dry ground and steel tracks for increased productivity in dirt, mud, rock, etc.


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## lucky644 (Jan 16, 2008)

No question, if you work in soil/sand a lot, get tracks. But if your on a lot of hard surfaces, you will rattle your machine to pieces and tear up your tracks which are very expensive.

We have a T250 and a T320.

Both machines, before 1,000hrs, looked like they were 3,000 hours old, the vibrations of using them on pavement destroyed them, and their tracks.

We also have a M650 and had a S205, much nicer to work with on hard surfaces.


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