# HO is trying to negotiate and "Bid Shop"



## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

I hear what you're saying, but chasing bad work is never a good idea. Focus on how to get the phone ringing. Call past customers, that almost never fails to rustle up work. I work as a tile, flooring and carpentry sub when I get slow. I can line up a week of work in an hour on a Sunday night by calling around. As mentioned above, focus on your marketing.
You're catching the wrong fish for some reason.
One thing is for sure, working on a job for a client that is shopping your prices that hard is going to be a nightmare. It's going to suck up too much time chasing nickels when you could be earning dollars.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

BThomas said:


> Sometimes you need to take nightmare jobs. It is not like he has any other leads now and he needs the work. I have taken work I did not like when bills needed to be paid. When you start to get behind it takes longer and longer to catch up if you don't do anything.
> I remember trimming a house for half what the price should have been because the builder knew there was no work around and if I didn't do it someone else would. And I did a great job even being way underpaid. I knew what I was getting into.
> I think Adam is aware of the possible problems. It will be his decision.
> Bill T


But that can bite cha in as$ real quick...If I cut my price in half on one job and the next guy finds out about it? :blink:


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## Adamsmith007 (Oct 20, 2013)

BThomas said:


> Sometimes you need to take nightmare jobs. It is not like he has any other leads now and he needs the work. I have taken work I did not like when bills needed to be paid. When you start to get behind it takes longer and longer to catch up if you don't do anything.
> I remember trimming a house for half what the price should have been because the builder knew there was no work around and if I didn't do it someone else would. And I did a great job even being way underpaid. I knew what I was getting into.
> I think Adam is aware of the possible problems. It will be his decision.
> Bill T


I agree. I know it can and most likely will be a nightmare. AM i willing to endure said nightmare to pay the bills? Yes. Will i when I'm up and running and not desperate? No. 

The guy is a nice guy. He moved here to Idaho from Europe, so i think i need to just educate him a little and help him understand my price is my price. If he doesn't' like it, then he can go with the $20k guy and see what happens.


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## BThomas (Apr 21, 2013)

Artisan - I agree with what you are saying but I am hearing that he is too new to have the contacts you are talking about. A bird in the hand - even if it poops on your hand - is better than sitting around. He can make calls and reach out while other subs are doing their part. There is time to do both. In the mean time he is desperate for work. I'm sure he will still make more on this PITA project than he could make at a fast food joint or other "fill in job".
Once completed it will be seen by others who might need work and not be so cheap. 
Bill T


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## Adamsmith007 (Oct 20, 2013)

ArtisanRemod said:


> I hear what you're saying, but chasing bad work is never a good idea. Focus on how to get the phone ringing. Call past customers, that almost never fails to rustle up work. I work as a tile, flooring and carpentry sub when I get slow. I can line up a week of work in an hour on a Sunday night by calling around. As mentioned above, focus on your marketing.
> You're catching the wrong fish for some reason.
> One thing is for sure, working on a job for a client that is shopping your prices that hard is going to be a nightmare. It's going to suck up too much time chasing nickels when you could be earning dollars.


I do need to focus more on marketing. Everything up until now has been word of mouth from previous customers. I am very likable, do great work, am on time, keep to my word, and i have a good reputation. I have repeat business from previous clients, and i have about 5 jobs lined up this spring once the weather turns. This basement job as well as the gym job from my other post have been referrals as well, but they are much bigger jobs and i think i just got the luck of the draw with a couple of people not wanting to pay what the job costs.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

I can only offer this. The only time I have ever regretted taking a job, is when I knew it was going to be a ****show going in, and I always swear to myself I'll never do it again lol. I don't chase bad work.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Break it down.

Make sure your line by line item prices come out to be higher than a single one project price. This is because you will need to coordinate to come back to those house 5 times.

And find better customers.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

When I first started painting, I was in the OP shoes. I painted for $100/room/coat.

I booked a customer who I knew had money, & friends with money. As I finished each room, he would have people over to brag. I overheard him giving a glowing review as he said: And he does it for ONLY $100 per room!

We had a chat at the end of the job about bragging about the price. He still refers work to this day. 

If you do a job cutthroat, make sure to have that chat. Tell them you want them to brag so much about you, you're giving them a "special price".


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Adamsmith007 said:


> Sooo&#133;what would you do!?


 I would tell him you made a mistake and priced too low then raise your price. Less than $30 a square foot to finish off a house is a red flag in my opinion, so you are probably missing something.

If you're confused by the low competing bids then you need to realize 9 out of 10 contractors go out of business within the first five years. And the primary reason is not charging enough for the work they do. The people with these low bids will end up doing one of two things, either lose money then eventually raise prices to make up for it, or keep losing money until they go out of business. If you compete with these people then you are going to be right there with them going out of business. 

I'd say keep looking for better clients, if all else fails then get regular job as a carpenter.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

KennMacMoragh said:


> I would tell him you made a mistake and priced too low then raise your price. Less than $30 a square foot to finish off a house is a red flag in my opinion, so you are probably missing something.
> 
> If you're confused by the low competing bids then you need to realize 9 out of 10 contractors go out of business within the first five years. And the primary reason is not charging enough for the work they do. The people with these low bids will end up doing one of two things, either lose money then eventually raise prices to make up for it, or keep losing money until they go out of business. If you compete with these people then you are going to be right there with them going out of business.
> 
> I'd say keep looking for better clients, if all else fails then get regular job as a carpenter.


It does seem low, but Matt (ohio) does them for $25 a ft. It is probably a regional pricing deal. Seems high to some, low to others.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

griz said:


> DO NOT BREAK THE JOB DOWN BY LINE ITEM.....


 Just curious why you say that. I've always broke my proposals down by line item, mainly because that's how the software I use does it, never been a problem.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

KennMacMoragh said:


> Just curious why you say that. I've always broke my proposals down by line item, mainly because that's how the software I use does it, never been a problem.


I have on some fixed cost jobs when I trusted the client, and all cost plus. But, I think he is saying that because the client is already price shopping. Good way to have the said client give your work to the cheaper guy who is to inexperienced or ignorant to figure his own costs.

I don't give breakdowns as a general rule, just a price for my scope of work.


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## Adamsmith007 (Oct 20, 2013)

KennMacMoragh said:


> I would tell him you made a mistake and priced too low then raise your price. Less than $30 a square foot to finish off a house is a red flag in my opinion, so you are probably missing something.
> 
> If you're confused by the low competing bids then you need to realize 9 out of 10 contractors go out of business within the first five years. And the primary reason is not charging enough for the work they do. The people with these low bids will end up doing one of two things, either lose money then eventually raise prices to make up for it, or keep losing money until they go out of business. If you compete with these people then you are going to be right there with them going out of business.
> 
> I'd say keep looking for better clients, if all else fails then get regular job as a carpenter.


Kenn, i grew up in the seattle area. Lived there for 28 years in Issaquah. I crunched numbers over and over and too thought i was low. PM me as i would be interested to see what you think of my price breakdown. THis is my first basement finish job. I talked to a buddy who works for one of the biggest Construction companies in our area and he looked at the job and said he would bid it at $30 a sqft which seems to be the going rate in my area.



Jaws said:


> It does seem low, but Matt (ohio) does them for $25 a ft. It is probably a regional pricing deal. Seems high to some, low to others.


This is a pretty straight forward basement. Minimal framing and nothing fancy, so i agree, it seems low but still profitable.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Jaws said:


> It does seem low, but Matt (ohio) does them for $25 a ft. It is probably a regional pricing deal. Seems high to some, low to others.


He also has a system and the necessary workers in place to make it happen.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> He also has a system and the necessary workers in place to make it happen.


Yep.

Definitely the deciding factor. I imagine he put in some serious homework on that one


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I thought he was doing them for $20


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

jlsconstruction said:


> I thought he was doing them for $20


Maybe. I don't remember.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Maybe. I don't remember.


 $24 and $23 with his coupon, I just looked it up. Still cheep


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## Adamsmith007 (Oct 20, 2013)

jlsconstruction said:


> I thought he was doing them for $20


Its $24. His slogan is "Finished for $24"


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

jlsconstruction said:


> $24 and $23 with his coupon, I just looked it up. Still cheep


A major semi custom builder here advertises a low Sq ft price and books a lot of work. From all accounts they deliver on their promise, I imagine they are making money or they wouldn't do it. 

Matts guys are mostly inhouse, he can know and control his costs very effectively with his experience and knowledge of his crews ability and performance.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

The only ones allowed to apply for a permit is the contractor or HO. Our municipalities don't act as a conduit for anyone. When the HO ask the city who is available to do the work the last thing they will do is recommend someone. 2 reasons. One I don't think they want the liability and two it's unfair business practices and makes it impossible to be impartial.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

However the city will give the HO a list of all the contractors that hold a valid city business license, but they absolutely won't call me to let me know a HO just pulled a permit.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

If you do end up taking the job from the OP, please do yourself a favor and make the payment terms as absolutely favorable to you as you can. If you are compromising your rate at least don't let the draw schedule hurt you.

Q: What's worse than a PITA job that you do for too little money?

A: The one that is a PITA for too little money that you have to wait to get paid for or don't get paid at all.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Adamsmith007 said:


> I agree 100%. but don't i have to start somewhere? My last job was the middle of October, haven't worked a job since. Have called all my friends who own their own companies and have worked for a few days and made $400. My credit cards are getting maxed out and my wife is stressed. Im starting to post guns and god forbid my quad for sale. I understand the principle of what you are saying, and agree, but i gotta eat and support my family.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good idea. Only thing i can really take out would be bathroom features. Other than that, its pretty much drywall and carpet down there.


I know it's hard, but stand your ground. You wouldn't want to work and lose money and these type of "at least I am working" jobs turn into losers every time.

I would also consider not having a high and low price. My price is my price. It is what I need in order to live and make the life my family deserves. I am done giving away my luxury for theirs, especially when they have it in abundance.

With all that said, you have to provide for your family. I, like everyone here, has been where you are. We have all taken jobs that we probably shouldn't have to keep the cash flow coming. Just be careful. Your number one responsibility in life is providing for your family and making sure that you wife feel safe and secure.

And don't take the lack of communication from a client as a negative any longer. There have been so many times that they called back weeks and sometimes months after a bid just to ask when I can start. Life happens to everyone. It's only amplified when the bills are piling up.

Good Luck and God Bless!

Rob


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

procrpntr said:


> I forgot to adjust my notifications. Cali they call me whenever there is an interest in permitting work,my outside sales staff calls them.we get the work. Someone applies for a permit, we call and ask for a chance to bid.....on the permitted work.
> 
> California I hope you get it.


If true, completely illegal


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Anti-wingnut said:


> If true, completely illegal


How so? If there was no monetary exchange, why would it be illegal?


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

The city employees are giving specific information to an individual without a FOI request. When are these employees telling proc....? On their time or the cities dime? They are also interjecting themselves into a commercial endeavor and giving one company an advantage that the others do no have. 

The local press or politicians would have a field day with this, but I actually doubt the story.


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## Adamsmith007 (Oct 20, 2013)

Mr Latone said:


> If you do end up taking the job from the OP, please do yourself a favor and make the payment terms as absolutely favorable to you as you can. If you are compromising your rate at least don't let the draw schedule hurt you.
> 
> Q: What's worse than a PITA job that you do for too little money?
> 
> A: The one that is a PITA for too little money that you have to wait to get paid for or don't get paid at all.


Depending on material cost or size of job, i usually do 50% before the job starts, and the remaining once the job is done. That's what i told the HO we would do for each phase of construction. If i were doing his whole basement start to finish, i think i would probably break it down into 1/3. What have you found to work?


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

Adamsmith007 said:


> Depending on material cost or size of job, i usually do 50% before the job starts, and the remaining once the job is done. That's what i told the HO we would do for each phase of construction. If i were doing his whole basement start to finish, i think i would probably break it down into 1/3. What have you found to work?


It really depends on the length and costs of the job.

It seems that everyone has your customer pegged as a potential PITA. Maybe he just thinks negotiating is the way it's done. Maybe he will turn out to be a real gem. My advice just covers your ass if he turns out be a slow pay.

I don't want tell you how to structure your draws. I just would hate to see anyone looking at need for cash flow get stuck with a cash flow situation that drags them further down a hole. Of course you expect to get paid, but make sure you don't extend yourself beyond your breaking point.

To some people ten days is nothing, hell they deal with 90 (not in retail remodeling however). In a really tight situation, ten days might push you past payment due dates for important obligations. Just based on your posts, you might be closer to the latter.

There are times I don't feel I want a particular customer to be ahead of me by $1500, other times I know the job will require I be out $20K.

You might need 50%, 35%, 15% or something. It really keeps the back end of the job from crushing you.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Anti-wingnut said:


> The city employees are giving specific information to an individual without a FOI request. When are these employees telling proc....? On their time or the cities dime? They are also interjecting themselves into a commercial endeavor and giving one company an advantage that the others do no have.
> 
> The local press or politicians would have a field day with this, but I actually doubt the story.


But what law is bring broken?


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

You're playing a word game. You must be smart enough to know that the municipality has a code of conduct and professional standards which are codified, hence they are law.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

procrpntr said:


> ... Know your building departments, befriend all of them, especially the clerical staff.same with the inspectors, don't argue, just go with it. This gets u phone calls when someone makes an inquiry about permitting, phone calls from subs when they here about work, discounts, and a general sense of camaraderie. ....


This idea is a complete non-starter where I work. Maybe it's a small-town thing.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I'm small fry compared to you G/Cs..I wouldn't want your job!:whistling
My terms are ..A deposit on the hanging when the hang is complete.
Which is 40% [give or take] This way the client is paying for a service that's been completed . I have never had an issue with this. 
When the job is paint ready . I turn my invoice in with everything broken down . If there are any extras that occur during the job they are discussed during the job. I leave with no surprises .


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> This idea is a complete non-starter where I work. Maybe it's a small-town thing.


I've heard of subs pulling permits ..Then call the G/C looking to bid on the job..But I don't think That's the way they do It ... I wouldn't know I've never been that desperate ! :whistling


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Anti-wingnut said:


> You're playing a word game. You must be smart enough to know that the municipality has a code of conduct and professional standards which are codified, hence they are law.


It's your words not mine. You infactically called it "completely illegal"...that's not a word game.

Nor I or you have any idea what every municipalities code of conduct is. I say this is a grey area and there is no way to say it is completely illegal if no exchange of goods or services has taken place for the information.

And a professional standard or code of conduct are not the law. Unless there is a law that underpins the code, there is not criminal charge to be had. Ethical or unfair maybe, but not criminal.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Building codes and illegal parking are not crimes, yet against the law


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Anti-wingnut said:


> The city employees are giving specific information to an individual without a FOI request. When are these employees telling proc....? On their time or the cities dime? They are also interjecting themselves into a commercial endeavor and giving one company an advantage that the others do no have.
> 
> The local press or politicians would have a field day with this, but I actually doubt the story.


What's to doubt about it? In a small town, or an "old-fashioned" locale (which includes some big cities) the homeowner comes in to talk about a project, and the permit clerk or inspector says, "Hey, if you need a pro, call this guy," and hands over a card or a number. That was the practice when and where I grew up, and it's obviously still the practice in some places. I've seen it happen in recent years, but not anywhere that I work.

If you're on the inside, it's great; if you're on the outside, it's simply corrupt. The practice has diminished over time. You can say that building departments have become less friendly, or that they have become more professional.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Somebody would have blown the whistle by now


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Building codes and illegal parking are not crimes, yet against the law


uhhh, what world do you live in.

Crime: an action or omission that constitutes an offense that may be prosecuted by the state and is punishable by law.

They are the definition laws and therefore when broken crimes punishable by the law. They will throw your butt in jail for unpaid parking tickets or breaking building/housing codes. Happens all the time.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> But what law is bring broken?


Maybe not criminal, but if I'm competing in that city, you can bet there would be a lawsuit. It's not a level playing field when the municipality calls and acts as a conduit for a HO and a contractor. Unless the city called every contractor licensed in that city. Now I remember asking a city where I can find a licensed soils engineer that works in their city. The guy pulled a list of engineers that held a city license, out and gave me a copy and said "all of these guys have a valid license".

If I'm a HO and the contractor that the city recommended phucked up my home you bet the city will be a part of the suit. Do you see why a city attorney might advise the city against this?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Just don't want specific municipalities mentioned. 

Carry on


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## procrpntr (Nov 17, 2013)

I don't think it's unethical or illegal. Plus this thread isn't about me. It's about getting shopped out, and line item bidding... I apologize for getting off topic.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

So if a local building dept employee is out to dinner one night and his daughter in law says "we are going to redo our bathroom" you think the guy will say " I can't recommend anyone it's unethical"? Be realistic. I don't think his recommendation is unethical unless he benefits from the referral.


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## procrpntr (Nov 17, 2013)

I an given a heads up occasionally, there is not many folks who can pull of jobs of any size locally, I still have to find a way to connect with the project, get invited to bid, then win the bid, yes it nets occasional jobs but 90 percent of our work is referrals from clients, just nice to score a gem here and there that would typically be awarded to out of the area folks. I firmly believe in keeping it local, tho it is nice to learn new technologies, building practices and so on from my more up to date city living brethren.
To survive you have to create opportunities...see a need fill a need.... and all that jazz


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

having a "Bone Thrown" your way does not make you an unethical contractor


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

parkers5150 said:


> having a "Bone Thrown" your way does not make you an unethical contractor


No but it makes the municipality an unethical Muni. IMO. So if someone is giving me work that is unethical and I know it, what does it make me?


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

ArtisanRemod said:


> So if a local building dept employee is out to dinner one night and his daughter in law says "we are going to redo our bathroom" you think the guy will say " I can't recommend anyone it's unethical"? Be realistic. I don't think his recommendation is unethical unless he benefits from the referral.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

We are not talking about his family, we are talking about the general public. We are also talking about getting a heads up from the clerk. It is public information, so if procrpntr wants that info, he can go look it up. Not receive calls from the muni, on the muni's phone during muni business hours


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Anti-wingnut said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum We are not talking about his family, we are talking about the general public. We are also talking about getting a heads up from the clerk. It is public information, so if procrpntr wants that info, he can go look it up. Not receive calls from the muni, on the muni's phone during muni business hours


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum 

That was a Perfect example Anti-wingnut


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## Willy1959 (Mar 27, 2009)

a painting contractor friend of mine says he tells the client.
"If I am able to cut large numbers out your price, that means I was ripping you off to start with, and I wasn't" He then just like to watch their face.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Willy1959 said:


> a painting contractor friend of mine says he tells the client.
> "If I am able to cut large numbers out your price, that means I was ripping you off to start with, and I wasn't" He then just like to watch their face.


I like that!


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## FlyFishRI (Aug 17, 2013)

Willy1959 said:


> a painting contractor friend of mine says he tells the client.
> "If I am able to cut large numbers out your price, that means I was ripping you off to start with, and I wasn't" He then just like to watch their face.


I say the same thing! I have seen companies offer 20% off...


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

Willy1959 said:


> a painting contractor friend of mine says he tells the client.
> "If I am able to cut large numbers out your price, that means I was ripping you off to start with, and I wasn't" He then just like to watch their face.


no it means you were selling ( note selling not working) at higher profit margins and were offering a temporary discount of standard rates to attract new clients.

Besides making a good check a business is supposed to profit as well.
How much profit and what it needs to support are 2 different numbers.

treat it like a job its may be overpriced,.,treat it as a business and its profiting.

just my 2 cents


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

jamestrd said:


> no it means you were selling ( note selling not working) at higher profit margins and were offering a temporary discount of standard rates to attract new clients.
> 
> Besides making a good check a business is supposed to profit as well.
> How much profit and what it needs to support are 2 different numbers.
> ...


I like you Man! You make my grammar look good!:laughing:


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