# Water Heater Insulation



## ThePEBros (Nov 25, 2013)

You guys got any opinions on the best type of insulation for the boiler / water heater? Got some clients asking, and the brands I can find seem a bit rubbish... You guys know of a really good product I could order online? :thumbsup:


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## Serviceplumber (Nov 18, 2013)

I personally think insulating a water heater is a waste of money,
The insulation from factory is more than enough, most of the money wasted is from the exhaust going up the flue ( on gas and oil type ) electric heaters are inefficient no matter what you do with them. 
If you customers are concerned I would upgrade them to a power vented model that are aprox 90% efficient. 
I'm not sure if rapping your water heater in a blanket is such a great idea. 
Most insulation kits that I know of cost between $50 and $100 and don't let the homeowner or tech do a visual inspection of the appliance .

Just my opinion


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

The cost savings are so Minimal its not worth it. You will spend more on a kit than the savings from using it.


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## ThePEBros (Nov 25, 2013)

I've also personally never seen the need for one, but with energy rising in RSA, not everyone can afford heat pumps / solar geysers, and looking at other methods. I've heard of some people having their houses caught on fire when using blankets too. I just want to be a bit more informed on it from the mouth of guys who have tried it and if any one can say it works and saves money. But if not, then I will try look into other means. Recommendations?

The Plumber Bro's
The Electrician Bro's


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## ThePEBros (Nov 25, 2013)

PS @BC Construction. 

How do the links at the bottom of your posts work for you? I've been told to do it for my Google, but I don't know what the actual procedure behind it all is? Could you also fill me in more on that please?


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

Got to agree with the above - it is not worth it & those that can actually benefit from it should be replaced

Look into Marathon water heaters - highest insulated ones around

Best tip if they want insulation (electric only) is to place a 2" piece of foam under the unit - blue or pink, not the crappy white junk, your catch pan & then the heater

As for links - it can help & the help files will tell you how exactly - basically you are just editing your signature though I am not sure you have enough posts yet to do it


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Place your hand on a water heater...notice how it doesn't feel hot?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

It's stupid to push a customer towards a power vent vs a standard water heater as a means of saving money based on efficiency. Idiotic is probably a better word.

A standard gas water heater is dirt cheap to run. Period. 

80% of my service calls on water heaters are on power vents. The reason to pick a power vent over a standard naturally vented water heater is to accommodate a location or if the old existing chimney isn't safe. 

To recommend it as a means of saving money based on efficiency is ridiculous. Not to mention the price difference between them etc.

Wrapping heaters.

At one time in history that actually did help but not any more. Modern day heaters have 2 part liquid closed cell insulation injected between the jacket and the tank. It's kind of like spray foaming a house.......it's highly efficient. Wrapping does nothing.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

About a hundred service calls a month for me.

Rheem has the least calls.

A.O. Smith has the most.

Bradford white is really good also.

Parts availability from Rheem is excellent in every respect. 

Mike


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> About a hundred service calls a month for me.
> 
> Rheem has the least calls.
> 
> ...


That's good to know on water heaters.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Gary H said:


> That's good to know on water heaters.


Selecting a water heater brand to stock and install has a lot to do with what a distributor carries and stocks. Often times this is regional. 

I for one would never put a new A.O. Smith in a customers house even if they gave me profit incentives. 
So far this year I had one warranty claim. It was a pressure switch on a power vent. Over a 100 units installed.

In 2012 I put over a 100 Rheem water heaters in. Had one service call on a defective controller. 

In 2011 I had ZERO warranty claims.

In 2010 I had ZERO warranty claims.

Last week I had 3 A.O. Smith calls both were less than 4 years old.

Bradford Whites are dam good also. Hardly ever have service calls on them.

I'm a big fan of Rheem except the tank less, those are not good at all.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

I also find Rheem is the best....its what I use

and I also find AO Smith is the worst...when I can a call with a 6-8 year old heater leaking or not working its almost always a AO Smith


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> It's stupid to push a customer towards a power vent vs a standard water heater as a means of saving money based on efficiency. Idiotic is probably a better word.
> 
> A standard gas water heater is dirt cheap to run. Period.
> 
> ...


Isn't a power vented less efficient because of the electric motor?


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> Isn't a power vented less efficient because of the electric motor?


Power vents are a "last resort" installation. 

In 2014 it will be even worse. As of sits now they are very sensitive to pressure fluctuations and now the government is stepping in and forcing another 2% efficiency which translates to another $100 and more sensitivity issues on length of run and fittings. 

I can buy 2 regular heaters for the price of a PV. Now consider main thence etc. 

More efficient my azz. Avoid them like a disease.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> Power vents are a "last resort" installation.
> 
> In 2014 it will be even worse. As of sits now they are very sensitive to pressure fluctuations and now the government is stepping in and forcing another 2% efficiency which translates to another $100 and more sensitivity issues on length of run and fittings.
> 
> ...


I was almost going to install a power vent because the chimney Is shot. But like you said two water heaters for the price of one. Although the PV I seen around here are over $1200 and go up from there. I ended up running a b-vent though the only place I could make it fit.

The old owners left the new water at the house. I haven't got it hooked up yet because I got a problem finding the right size threaded nut to hook the water lines up to. This weekend I will get a pic and see what I am doing wrong.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> Power vents are a "last resort" installation.
> 
> In 2014 it will be even worse. As of sits now they are very sensitive to pressure fluctuations and now the government is stepping in and forcing another 2% efficiency which translates to another $100 and more sensitivity issues on length of run and fittings.
> 
> ...


I put one in because my chimney is shot. They are the norm here, most are GSW, Giant or rheem.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Gary H said:


> I was almost going to install a power vent because the chimney Is shot. But like you said two water heaters for the price of one. Although the PV I seen around here are over $1200 and go up from there. I ended up running a b-vent though the only place I could make it fit.
> 
> The old owners left the new water at the house. I haven't got it hooked up yet because I got a problem finding the right size threaded nut to hook the water lines up to. This weekend I will get a pic and see what I am doing wrong.


Text me the photo if you want Gary.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> Text me the photo if you want Gary.


I will. It will be towards the weekend since its at my farm house.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Gary H said:


> I will. It will be towards the weekend since its at my farm house.[/QUOTE


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Sent you a PM Gary.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Frost will go 6'.

Basements are 8-10'

Most sewers are under the basement


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> So you were going to answer it like Mike did? And why would all that Mike said be something I could guess? Wouldn't you think that the way a water heater is made is something that is learned? Because I've never learned this makes my question stupid. I have a feeling you didnt know this info either or you would of answered it instead of talking chit about my question.


You are over thinking it, the water temperature from a water heater is relatively linear. When it gets cold your incoming cold water is at a lower temperature. When they mix in the shower valve you need more hot to maintain the same temperature you enjoy. I'm not saying Mike's theory doesn't apply, but all newer houses here use thermostatic mixing valves which would make his reasoning less viable.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> You are over thinking it, the water temperature from a water heater is relatively linear. When it gets cold your incoming cold water is at a lower temperature. When they mix in the shower valve you need more hot to maintain the same temperature you enjoy. I'm not saying Mike's theory doesn't apply, but all newer houses here use thermostatic mixing valves which would make his reasoning less viable.


Obviously you didn't read what I wrote.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> Obviously you didn't read what I wrote.


Correct I didn't it just looked really long and over complicated.

We have a massive temp difference incomming water from summer to winter, so much that my shower valve is in a significantly different position.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

I barely even have to move the handle in my shower once I get the wood boiler cranking.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

rex said:


> I barely even have to move the handle in my shower once I get the wood boiler cranking.


Always wanted one of those.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> Always wanted one of those.


You don't have a handle in your shower? What do ya use vice grips?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> Always wanted one of those.


No you wouldn't. We used to install a lot of Aga units in the UK. but we pulled more out. The wood fired units that were used as system boilers were nothing but trouble and even worse to cook with. They were worth a lot used though so people got great cash back on them. There people out there who pay $5k+ for used units.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> You don't have a handle in your shower? What do ya use vice grips?


A handle is not thermostatic. Obviously you have no clue what you are talking about.

Stick to low voltage wiring.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> No you wouldn't. We used to install a lot of Aga units in the UK. but we pulled more out. The wood fired units that were used as system boilers were nothing but trouble and even worse to cook with. They were worth a lot used though so people got great cash back on them. There people out there who pay $5k+ for used units.


I know guys that use them and love them. I hooked up a warehouse with one and they burn pallets. It's been a few years so I don't know how happy they are now but I see it running all the time.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> A handle is not thermostatic. Obviously you have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> Stick to low voltage wiring.


It was a joke Mike...


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> I know guys that use them and love them. I hooked up a warehouse with one and they burn pallets. It's been a few years so I don't know how happy they are now but I see it running all the time.


They are nice bits if kit. Some we put in were in the $20k range but they were electric models though. Most of the people we installed them for we're more about the look and style over being wood fired ovens. One customer did use his in 5 years. Still had the instructions sitting were we left them inside the oven area when he sold the house. He ate out every night for 5 years lol


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I wasn't joking. You obviously don't know the difference between thermostatic valves and mixing valves. You keep on making azz hole comments but the fact is you don't know.

There's people who know, and there's people who think they know.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Kick his ass sea bass.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Cali, is your waterline for the shower on a outside wall? Is your house older with poor insulation?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I think when inner was talking about the TMV he meant it as a separate unit and not the shower valve its self. that's what got from it anyway.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> I wasn't joking. You obviously don't know the difference between thermostatic valves and mixing valves. You keep on making azz hole comments but the fact is you don't know.
> 
> There's people who know, and there's people who think they know.


I know exactly what they are, what part has you confused?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> I think when inner was talking about the TMV he meant it as a separate unit and not the shower valve its self. that's what got from it anyway.


Exactly I mentioned both.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> I know exactly what they are, what part has you confused?


I'm not confused, I can assure you.

Love how these threads end up. Total waste of time.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

It's Cali we hardly have insulation in these homes. Some have none. But to answer your question my be some of the line is in an exterior wall but I'm sure. Also I do have exterior insulation but how good it is I can't tell you.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Its not been that cold here yet. About 40'-50's but overall not really cold yet but my cold water temps feel like I have chilled water coming out my cold faucets. In the summer the cold feels almost warm. I have to sometimes go back to jobs to adjust the max temp setting of the valves because its such a difference in the winter. 

So even though it don't feel that different outside the cold incoming water can make your mix much cooler.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> I'm not confused, I can assure you.
> 
> Love how these threads end up. Total waste of time.


Yah I like wasting time and ruining threads.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Inner10 said:


> Yah I like wasting time and ruining threads.


If something doesn't go his exact way, he will pout and complain, lots.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> If something doesn't go his exact way, he will pout and complain, lots.


Should I draw a diagram of the difference between a thermostatic mixing valve, a pressure balancing valve and vice grips?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Yeah, you lost me on the type of vise grips to use.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Well Marcy, Darcy, or whatever your name is, I've helped a schist ton of people on here. But you, you have a crap ton of free time so you just scan all threads all day waiting to make a comment. That doesn't say much about you.

And what is Marcy doing in a plumbing thread? Nothing. 

It's laughable. Sad really.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> Well Marcy, Darcy, or whatever your name is, I've helped a schist ton of people on here. But you, you have a crap ton of free time so you just scan all threads all day waiting to make a comment. That doesn't say much about you.
> 
> And what is Marcy doing in a plumbing thread? Nothing.
> 
> It's laughable. Sad really.


This is the fulfilling life we live. I'm drinking at the same time if that makes it more productive.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> This is the fulfilling life we live. I'm drinking at the same time if that makes it more productive.


Whilst your drinking and being productive I have a couple questions. Sending you a PM.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Excellent!

I might be missing something really important here on the forum.

Maybe I have this all wrong. Maybe I should be on the wood working & electrical sub-forums giving advice instead sticking with just plumbing & business . Dam, this could be great! This could be a whole new adventure.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Oconomowoc said:


> Excellent!
> 
> I might be missing something really important here on the forum.
> 
> Maybe I have this all wrong. Maybe I should be on the wood working & electrical sub-forums giving advice instead sticking with just plumbing & business . Dam, this could be great! This could be a whole new adventure.


I just look at the recent posts and give lousy advice at every opportunity.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

Hey Ocono, I enjoy reading your posts. Please continue to do so as I'm sure others do too. Guys like you make the internet worth something.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> Well Marcy, Darcy, or whatever your name is, I've helped a schist ton of people on here. But you, you have a crap ton of free time so you just scan all threads all day waiting to make a comment. That doesn't say much about you.
> 
> And what is Marcy doing in a plumbing thread? Nothing.
> 
> It's laughable. Sad really.


What's laughable is how you always stamp your feet, whine about anything that does not pertain to what you wanted it to and then every time you always have some melodramatic post about never posting anything again. 

All because you didn't comprehend using vise grips to turn the shower on and then posted one of your little fits about it.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> What's laughable is how you always stamp your feet, whine about anything that does not pertain to what you wanted it to and then every time you always have some melodramatic post about never posting anything again.
> 
> All because you didn't comprehend using vise grips to turn the shower on and then posted one of your little fits about it.


You may think I'm stamping my feet but anybody who knows me knows that's not true. That's just your interpretation, and you are meaningless.

But I do get pissed. I have an extremely short fuse for idiocy. Extremely short. 

You contribute nothing Marcy, yet all of a sudden here you are. And once again people can see your useless posts.

You can hate me or like me but at the end of the day I answer real questions by real people and my answers are well thought out and complete, and I answer them until people understand it. That is a fact, and most people here know that. 
What do you do here? Nothing. Seriously, what is your purpose? Why are you on this thread? Care to answer?

You don't like me, I get it. So avoid me alright. I mean, are you psychotic?????


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> What's laughable is how you always stamp your feet, whine about anything that does not pertain to what you wanted it to and then every time you always have some melodramatic post about never posting anything again.
> 
> All because you didn't comprehend using vise grips to turn the shower on and then posted one of your little fits about it.


How many useless arguments have you participated in? I've seen a lot....

Ocono actually contributes a lot more good stuff to this forum than you or inner10 or any of those other yahoos on here.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

tyb525 said:


> How many useless arguments have you participated in? I've seen a lot.... Ocono actually contributes a lot more good stuff to this forum than you or inner10 or any of those other yahoos on here.


Yahoo!


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Oconomowoc said:


> You may think I'm stamping my feet but anybody who knows me knows that's not true. That's just your interpretation, and you are meaningless.
> 
> But I do get pissed. I have an extremely short fuse for idiocy. Extremely short.
> 
> ...


If I am so meaningless, why do you bother? I can read and respond to what I so choose to.

At least I have not resorted to your level of name calling.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> If I am so meaningless, why do you bother? I can read and respond to what I so choose to.
> 
> At least I have not resorted to your level of name calling.


Lol


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

tyb525 said:


> How many useless arguments have you participated in? I've seen a lot....
> 
> Ocono actually contributes a lot more good stuff to this forum than you or inner10 or any of those other yahoos on here.


In fairness to inner 10, he does and has offered good ideas and input. At times I'd really like to kick him in the balls but I can't take away the fact that he has contributed.


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

Oconomowoc said:


> In fairness to inner 10, he does and has offered good ideas and input. At times I'd really like to kick him in the balls but I can't take away the fact that he has contributed.


You're right now that I thought about it some more. Best of both worlds?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

tyb525 said:


> You're right now that I thought about it some more. Best of both worlds?


I'm here for comic relief...






...and plumbing expertise.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

You people do know that the forum software has an ignore feature, right?

That is if you don't have me on ignore already.


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