# i need help......



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

carpentershane said:


> Yes it is and yes we do


Well, when it gets buried in snow, I guess you gonna have one hell of an ice dam somewhere downstream of that thing.:laughing:


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## carpentershane (Feb 9, 2009)

I alerted the job super to this fact already... He was the one who put in the fan


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## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)

Is that shingle wrapped rake board done like that on purpose?


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

carpentershane said:


> I alerted the job super to this fact already... He was the one who put in the fan


With the torch down, you most likely are in good shape in that area. I just think it could have been detailed more efficiently to simplify things.

Without a curbside view, it's hard to say what cosmetic effect my idea would have had. 

I've had to frame my share of less than perfect roof lines. lots of areas with diverters, EPDM or fiberglass/resin.:laughing:


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## carpentershane (Feb 9, 2009)

> loneframer;1339556]As the framer, I would have changed the design there. There should have been a diversion done starting from the ridge to the left, across to the roof on the right, creating 2 valleys that empty at or slightly beyond where the gutter on the right side ends. That rake on the right could have continued to plane into the rake on the left, eliminating the pocket.


I am having a hard time visualizing this...


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## carpentershane (Feb 9, 2009)

WarriorWithWood said:


> Is that shingle wrapped rake board done like that on purpose?



yup


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

Tom Struble said:


> not that kind of help:sneaky2:
> 
> 
> i need to make this mess work somehow
> ...


Is that real stone or lick & stick? I'm guessing the later. I can't see because of the ladder, but it appears the stone is laid on the roof for a few inches below the corner. 

Set a 2x4 on the roof, narrow side up. Ride a grinder on top of it and cut the stone away over the shingles. Step flash and kickout to behind the house wrap. Install a piece of PT 2x4 in the void created and counter flash over it with cu.

edit: and move that downspout as mentioned earlier.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

carpentershane said:


> I am having a hard time visualizing this...


Essentially, the roof to the right would not end with a fascia. It would continue down to meet the other roof, forming what I refer to as a dead valley, because there would be no slope to divert water.

To achieve a pitch, I would put a sleeper down that starts at the ridge on the left of your picture, following a level line over to the roof on the right.

From the corners of the sleeper, to the point where the two roofs meet on the open end, strike lines and lay valley plates. Fill in a few jacks and sheath it.

It looks like you would end up with enough slope to lay I&W and simply shingle the area.

The other thing I see that troubles me is the outlet on the gutter. It appears that it simply dumps into the corner of a suspect area. I see major ice build-up in that corner after a good snowfall.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Tom, 

Here's what I'd do:
1. Remove shingles to deck

2. Remove siding 3' vertically

3. Re-frame the roof against the siding to continue down onto the next roof. 
This will eliminate that open space where water/ice/snow will build up and
I'd use a closed-valley. 

4. That's going to leave you some fascia area right next to the stone
(a right triangle shape). That can be strategically trimmed with coil 
stock to blend in. 

5. I'd wrap all of that with Ice & Water shield and go up at least 24" up the wall before step-flashing it in. Also, I'd build up a "cant" from the wall out just for a little security; Not an aggressive height, but just enough to convince the water to not hang around there. 

6. When you re-install the leader, use a "B" elbow to point the water towards the other roof (not directly "at" the valley). I'd form my own elbow there. It looks like an factory "B" might shoot the water past the gutter. What angle? Like my old man taught me "think like water" when you decide what angle to make it and I'd cut the bottom of the elbow at the same pitch of the roof (to control any heavy rain). 

[You could also re-locate that little leader (downspout) and install it on the front of that wall, turning the elbow directly "into" the gutter. It might not be as clean looking as running it on the side is, but it will definitely eliminate a lot of issues with it and personally, I think it would look better than the extra 4"-6" that it's extended past the rake now.] 

7. Where those leaves are settling? It looks like built-up underlayment is causing a little damming there. 

I've attached the pics with how I'd alter them.

If you do go ahead with relocating the leader, 
I'd use standoff brackets like these for that stone
(they'd be a nice clean install):


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

loneframer said:


> Essentially, the roof to the right would not end with a fascia. It would continue down to meet the other roof, forming what I refer to as a dead valley, because there would be no slope to divert water.
> 
> To achieve a pitch, I would put a sleeper down that starts at the ridge on the left of your picture, following a level line over to the roof on the right.
> 
> ...


LF, 

Do we have the same idea?


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

Tom:
As low as that J-Channel is I wouldnt be suprised if its not part of a problem. I'd be for checking on what they did behind the siding, I like to keep the J up at least an inch that keeps nails up 2 1/4.

Maybe some painted L trim 3x3 behind the siding and sealed and screwed thru shingles


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## carpentershane (Feb 9, 2009)

loneframer said:


> The other thing I see that troubles me is the outlet on the gutter. It appears that it simply dumps into the corner of a suspect area. I see major ice build-up in that corner after a good snowfall.


That gutter is going to be sloped to the outside to avoid dumping more water into the trouble area


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I would do something along the lines of what I did here, grind out your reglet, somewhat smooth out the stone, tapcon a 1x something to it, flash , counterflash, done. 

This of course assumes you remove siding, shingles, etc., but this should solve the stone issue.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)




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## WindowsonWash (Nov 1, 2011)

What...you mean that bead of caulk at the chimney:shingle interface won't keep out water...

:whistling

This is how we do our flashing in similar situations.


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

C'mon WoW, we all know caulk fixes everything! :whistling:whistling


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Renegade said:


> C'mon WoW, we all know caulk fixes everything! :whistling:whistling


Well yeah! What do you think is on the top of that reglet.....:whistling


Tom, you know that is probably a siding issue or ice issue. Once you take it apart you will find it rather easily I'm sure.


Loneframer....how could that be an ice problem in there? I didn't read where there was an insulation or ventilation problem....:laughing::blink:


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## dennis (Nov 17, 2004)

For the original question by Tom, I would do something like this;









Depending on the budget, epdm, modified or single ply would all work. Just get the shingles and step flashing out of the way.


For that last set of photos with the chimney cricket, why all that work with the new 1x and cutting/chiseling of the chimney. 
Why not just counter flash to the existing mortar joints?


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

dennis said:



> For the original question by Tom, I would do something like this;
> 
> Depending on the budget, epdm, modified or single ply would all work. Just get the shingles and step flashing out of the way.
> 
> ...


Because you can't flash something that's all lumpy


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

It's hard to tell in the picture, but the center of those stones are about 1 1/2"- 2" off the mortar line


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

MJW said:


> Loneframer....how could that be an ice problem in there? I didn't read where there was an insulation or ventilation problem....:laughing::blink:


Good point!:thumbsup: Comb your hair differently and it won't show.:laughing:


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## dennis (Nov 17, 2004)

> It's hard to tell in the picture, but the center of those stones are about 1 1/2"- 2" off the mortar line


I saw that. I think it would have been easier to just trim the individual stones as opposed to cutting and trying to straighten/flatten the whole 6" area around the chimney. 

But maybe that's just 20/20 hindsight on my part.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

dennis said:


> I saw that. I think it would have been easier to just trim the individual stones as opposed to cutting and trying to straighten/flatten the whole 6" area around the chimney.
> 
> But maybe that's just 20/20 hindsight on my part.


I think when it's all said and done the sq footage would be about the same, the whole process took a little more than 3 hours.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

So what'd you come up with Tom?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

didn't do it yet,maybe this weekend:yawn:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> didn't do it yet,maybe this weekend:yawn:


You shoulda done it in the rain today, so you could see where it was leaking.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

dennis said:


> For the original question by Tom, I would do something like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i can't do nice like that!


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

loneframer said:


> You shoulda done it in the rain today, so you could see where it was leaking.


just follow the rotten studs:laughing:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

didn't rain here till late


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> just follow the rotten studs:laughing:


That is the other option.:whistling


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## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> didn't do it yet,maybe this weekend:yawn:


dont put it off till this weekend. at the pace we're going, we'll probably have snow by then!


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

MJW said:


> Loneframer....how could that be an ice problem in there? I didn't read where there was an insulation or ventilation problem....:laughing::blink:


Ha ha, I get it. Is funny because only the sun causes ice dams.

I guess as long as your customers can't use google either, everyone's happy.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

jmiller said:


> Ha ha, I get it. Is funny because only the sun causes ice dams.
> 
> I guess as long as your customers can't use google either, everyone's happy.


I look pretty good when I can show a customer first hand how their ice dams are created and how they can be fixed, despite what the main stream media says.

BTW, I never said that the sun is the _only_ thing that causes ice dams.

That roof in Tom's pic could easily have ice dams caused by meltiing snow from the roofs that receive more hours of sunlight in the winter....melting and flowing into an area that is shaded (cooler).

You do know that the earth tilts too, right?


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

MJW said:


> I look pretty good when I can show a customer first hand how their ice dams are created and how they can be fixed, despite what the main stream media says.


Ok, so how does roof above get 'fixed'? Giant umbrella, or eliminate as much heat and humidity from the attic as possible with insulation and ventilation?


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

jmiller said:


> Ok, so how does roof above get 'fixed'? Giant umbrella, or eliminate as much heat and humidity from the attic as possible with insulation and ventilation?



Could be to add a gutter, remove a gutter, add a heat tape. Some valleys are cut too wide and too much metal exposed (which is colder than the shingles in some months). Maybe the area where it flows could need some darker colored fascia, siding, maybe lighter colored. Could even be a window nearby with the wrong glazing. You've seen that, right? Some windows have burned siding on the neighbor's house from the sun rays.

There is more to it than what the climate change people have put into people's heads. The theory of lost heat and inadequate insulation is correct, but not in all cases. Anyone who can form a thought can figure out that heat rises and the edges of the roof have no heat below them. Most people just stop thinking right there.

Once you start "believing", you stop "thinking". 

I don't mean to beat it to death, but when I see this on houses every year it's hard to deny it.....Even if bloggers found on a google search say it's not true.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

It's really no different than seeing ice on the sidewalk that is on the north side of a building. It melts off a higher roof that may be facing south west and falls to the cement below that doesn't get above freezing for 3 months. I don't think that has anything to do with heat loss below the cement.


And BTW, we have been putting I&W on unheated garages for years.......


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Anyone who thinks heat can't be drawn into a soffit vent from outside needs to install soffit on a 10 degree day, on the South side of a house with felt paper on it.

A masonry wall will store the suns heat until long after the sun goes down, but not through the night. You can put R-60 in the ceiling, it won't stop the soffits from drawing that heat in and warming the roof deck.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

MJW said:


> Could be to add a gutter, remove a gutter, add a heat tape. Some valleys are cut too wide and too much metal exposed (which is colder than the shingles in some months). Maybe the area where it flows could need some darker colored fascia, siding, maybe lighter colored. Could even be a window nearby with the wrong glazing. You've seen that, right? Some windows have burned siding on the neighbor's house from the sun rays.


I don't think I'd suggest any of that as a possible cause, and have never suggested heat tape as a solution. They're already losing energy in the form of heat loss, and throwing away electricity too just adds insult. 



> I don't mean to beat it to death, but when I see this on houses every year it's hard to deny it.....Even if bloggers found on a google search say it's not true.


These aren't blogger's opinion:

"Ice Dams"
Timothy Larson, Lewis Hendricks, and Patrick Huelman
Revisions by Richard Stone (2009)
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/housingandclothing/dk1068.html

"Preventing Ice Dams"
Paul Fisette 
http://bct.eco.umass.edu/publications/by-title/preventing-ice-dams/

"Guidelines for Ventilating
Attics and Cathedral Ceilings to Avoid Icings at Their Eaves"
Wayne N. Tobiasson, P.E. - James S. Buska - Alan R. Greatorex
http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/library/booksnongovernment/MP02-5778.pdf


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

loneframer said:


> Anyone who thinks heat can't be drawn into a soffit vent from outside needs to install soffit on a 10 degree day, on the South side of a house with felt paper on it.
> 
> A masonry wall will store the suns heat until long after the sun goes down, but not through the night. You can put R-60 in the ceiling, it won't stop the soffits from drawing that heat in and warming the roof deck.


I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that if the interior of said south facing masonry veneer wall were left unheated the ice would not back up to the point of leaking into the house.

Some of the worst dams are on houses with not much intake ventilation, and it's very common to see ice coming out of the vents themselves.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

From 'Guidelines to ventilating...' link above:


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Can't argue with tunnel vision. I give up.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

jmiller said:


> I don't think I'd suggest any of that as a possible cause, and have never suggested heat tape as a solution. They're already losing energy in the form of heat loss, and throwing away electricity too just adds insult.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Found this excerpt in the first link above,...


What causes different roof surface temperatures?
Since most ice dams form at the edge of the roof, there is obviously a heat source warming the roof elsewhere. This heat is primarily coming from the house. In rare instances *solar heat gain may cause these temperature differences.*

Let's discuss this. Wind driven snow accumulates on the downwind side of the roof. In my area, as I would surmise is elsewhere, on the South side. This snow almost, if not absolutely, always builds deeper near the fascia and has a depth of zero near the ridge. Would it not be common logic to think that when the shingles near the ridge become heated by the sun, a certain amount of snow melt will occur near the top of the roof, causing water to run down behind the remaining snow? In this case, would it not be beneficial to have an attic that remains above freezing, to keep the dam from forming high up on the roof?

From the second article

SOLUTIONS

The damage caused by ice dams can be controlled in 2 ways: *Maintain the entire roof surface at ambient outdoor temperatures *or build a roof so that it can’t leak into sensitive building materials if an ice dam forms.

Again, let's discuss. See statement above. Impossible to maintain ambient temperature when there is solar heat gain in the exposed shingles.
 
From the third article

Figure 1 illustrates that building heat—not the sun—is the
*primary *cause of ice dams and icicles on roofs. When the sun
melts snow on roofs, it also warms the eaves, and this tends to
minimize the growth of icicles. Certainly, icings can form on
unheated buildings and from solar heating, but they are
usually small, infrequent, and do not cause chronic problems.

Discussion? See above statement. Deep snow along the fascia line will prevent solar heat gain at that location.



All three articles state facts that support the theory of other possibilities in the forming of ice dams. I didn't read any of those articles any further than these paragraphs. No need to.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

In short: 
Cold Roof = Good. 
The drier a roof is kept "inside", the better. 

I've gone up on roofs that were a hundred years old that were as 
intact and as structurally sound as the day they were installed.
I've been up on new houses and McMansions that looked 
liked they were dredged from the bottom of a swamp. 

Now, I ain't got no degree in engineering or anything, 
but something tells me that they knew something back 
then that we spend our time compensating for today. 

This might sound nutty, but a house is a living thing. It needs to breath.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

2ndGen said:


> In short:
> Cold Roof = Good.
> The drier a roof is kept "inside", the better.
> 
> ...


Problem is, ventilation is the enemy of insulation and vice-versa.

Insulation is designed to stop drafts. Ventilation is what? You got it, draft.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Ah who cares. Ice and water is the answer to all problems!


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

loneframer said:


> Problem is, ventilation is the enemy of insulation and vice-versa. Insulation is designed to stop drafts. Ventilation is what? You got it, draft.


:laughing:

There has to be a place for the hot air that is built up in the home to escape. Eaves and rakes (IMO) definitely need to be kept cold. It's tricky. It's all about design. I generally tell the house to tell me what she needs/wants with "clues". 

Again, I'm no engineer, but I can look at a home and just see where it should breath and where it needs to be kept cool. There's too much thinking that goes into designing homes today. If a house is made air tight, then something has to give. Okay, ventilation is installed. But wait! Now, it has to be "designed for the space" with all kinds of formulas for square footage, floors, blah, blah, blah...

It used to be so simple before. It reminds me of this 
(knock down one problem, another pops up)...










I've re-dont roofs down to the rafters. When there, I look for trouble spots and for what looks "right", then rebuild accordingly. I've been asked by customers about ventilation. It almost always comes out that "so & so" contractor told them that they needed it or they saw it on public television read it in better homes and garden, yada-yada-yada. If there house has lasted for 80 years without it, I ask them why they'd want me to fix something that ain't broken.


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## WindowsonWash (Nov 1, 2011)

The ventilated roof design is a well proven and time tested approach.

If the envelope layer of the home isn't right or there is inadequate R-Value at the outside wall, you are asking for trouble.

Homes do not need to breath and certainly not to the extent that they do.

Unventilated attic assemblies have been proven to be more efficiently but they have inherent difficulties and require more expensive materials and applications in most cases.

The ventilated roof can be made to function quite well if it is properly air sealed, insulated, and vent baffled (preventing the wind washing of insulation).


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Ah who cares. Ice and water is the answer to all problems!


:laughing: I&W Shield is the tar of today!


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

WindowsonWash said:


> The ventilated roof design is a well proven and time tested approach.
> 
> If the envelope layer of the home isn't right or there is inadequate R-Value at the outside wall, you are asking for trouble.
> 
> ...


Homes don't need to breath, but they need ventilation? 

:blink:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

he's right houses don't breath,but they need ventilation


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Houses need to breathe *VS* Houses don't need to breathe.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

loneframer said:


> Figure 1 illustrates that building heat—not the sun—is the
> *primary *cause of ice dams and icicles on roofs. When the sun
> melts snow on roofs,* it also warms the eaves,* and this tends to
> minimize the growth of icicles. Certainly, icings can form on
> ...


See what the fool in the link forgot to mention or think about? I hate when they do a science experiment and forget about variables.


What about if the eave is shaded from a tree for 3 winter months? How about a close by overhang that keeps the area shaded for the entire winter. Maybe it heats up just enough to melt into the gutter and freeze, then start creeping up under the shingles.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Drafty houses don't rot as much as airtight houses.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Show me the grace!!!!


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Not all that scientific. 2 forces at work. 
One source is gravity. 6:00 am ice.......10:00am -3:30 ish thaw.... then slow refreezing. Everything rolls toward the bottom and refreezes every night till the pile on the roof is gone. In this case snow shrinks from the top and melts causing an ice slab underneath the snow pack. Minimal ice/ideal circumstance.

Heat loss contributes to nature by increasing the thickness of the ice build up. In this case the warm underside is melting even in the evening and causing a slushy effect that become large ice.

I personally believe gutters add to the problem alot. No gutter smaller ice dam. When the gutter becomes a giant ice cube your problems grow.



Tom just saw this thread. 
Im sure you thought it out already but I would pull siding & Cricket shingles, install flat roofing up wall, lay a generous bead of tar under the valley shingles and re install siding 2" inches above the roof line. Do what you have to do by the stone and change the leader elbow to a "B".


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

MJW said:


> See what the fool in the link forgot to mention or think about? I hate when they do a science experiment and forget about variables.
> 
> 
> What about if the eave is shaded from a tree for 3 winter months? How about a close by overhang that keeps the area shaded for the entire winter. Maybe it heats up just enough to melt into the gutter and freeze, then start creeping up under the shingles.


*Building Science* is a continuing evolution. It's about three stages behind *Building Experience*.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> he's right houses don't breath,but they need ventilation


Depends on the definition of Breathe, but ALL houses are subjected to periods of high and low atmospheric pressure. The house will find a way to equalize the pressure differential from interior to exterior and vice-versa. In my opinion, very similar to breathing.


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## carpentershane (Feb 9, 2009)

It is a shame that I don't have to worry about this controversial topic where I live:laughing:


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## robert (Nov 28, 2005)

A 10 year modified on shingles, not really a solution.How about metal or at least two pls of modified?Will you be koolsealing the modifed,if not it will detiorate rapidly due to uv exposure.


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## WindowsonWash (Nov 1, 2011)

2ndGen said:


> Homes don't need to breath, but they need ventilation?
> 
> :blink:





2ndGen said:


> Houses need to breathe *VS* Houses don't need to breathe.





2ndGen said:


> Drafty houses don't rot as much as airtight houses.


Ventilation and "breathing" are two totally different things. Ventilation is controlled and designed into the construction of the home. In most cases we are referring to attic ventilation and whose singular aim is to remove diffused and bulk air transferred moisture into the cold attic.

If you seal up the attic floor, your necessity for ventilation can often be cut in a 3rd and still be more than safe.

House do not need to breath, occupants do. There are certainly minimum ventilation requirements (which are a bit stupid if you ask me), but they are merely trying to preserve indoor air quality via dilution of the pollutants in the home (coming out of carpet, wood resins, and other chemicals).

Why we don't try to remove the chemicals from the building materials and control air quality that way...that would make too much sense and the building materials lobbies are powerful. We could easily make most of the products that go into the home for just a few cents more and be safe.

Leakier homes don't rot because they dry out. I would rather have the home be built properly and keep the bulk moisture out of the home than build a home that leaks air like a sieve and costs a mint to heat and cool.

You can build a home as tight as you want and if you provide for mechanical ventilation (ERV/HRV) you can exchange the air for fresh and recover the energy (or remove the energy depending on the season) from the air before pumping it back into the home. No sense in blowing those dollars out of the home.

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-015-top-ten-dumb-things-to-do-in-the-south


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

WindowsonWash said:


> Ventilation and "breathing" are two totally different things. Ventilation is controlled and designed into the construction of the home. In most cases we are referring to attic ventilation and whose singular aim is to remove diffused and bulk air transferred moisture into the cold attic.
> 
> If you seal up the attic floor, your necessity for ventilation can often be cut in a 3rd and still be more than safe.
> 
> ...


Taking in fresh air/exhausting air is "not" breathing?


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## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I would do something along the lines of what I did here, grind out your reglet, somewhat smooth out the stone, tapcon a 1x something to it, flash , counterflash, done.
> 
> This of course assumes you remove siding, shingles, etc., but this should solve the stone issue.
> 
> ...


Man, this is one of my biggest pet peeves. Why do roofers feel it is OK to wreck perfectly good masonry? The reglet should be cut on Plumb and level lines. So it adds a little more work for you? Oh freakin' well.

That chimney was well built and will never be put right again.


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## WindowsonWash (Nov 1, 2011)

2ndGen said:


> Taking in fresh air/exhausting air is "not" breathing?


No. Ventilation is something that is controlled and metered. 

Ventilation in an attic is driven in majority by convection and the air that is leaving the ridgeline/gables/fans/etc should be outdoor air and not connected to the living space in any capacity.

When a home is built tight and built with materials devoid of VOC and offgasing constituents, you could effectively tighten the home up and the only ventilation air would be the air that is from opening and closing doors/windows.

The idea that a home needs to breathe is fundamentally incorrect and was previously maintained because we could more aptly manage moisture and diffusion. 

Building a home tight is more healthy (without chemicals) and energy efficient.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

WindowsonWash said:


> No. Ventilation is something that is controlled and metered.


Wow. Okay. If breathing isn't air moving in an out 
(by whatever means), I don't know what is. 

So, I guess modern builders artificially accomplish what has been done regularly for centuries and now say it's not what it is because they control the means of air movement. In other words, "means" determine definition?

This...









VS...

This...


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

artisanstone said:


> Man, this is one of my biggest pet peeves. Why do roofers feel it is OK to wreck perfectly good masonry? The reglet should be cut on Plumb and level lines. So it adds a little more work for you? Oh freakin' well.
> 
> That chimney was well built and will never be put right again.


Because that's how we roll son! What! :laughing:

Seriously though...

First of all, A&E is not a Roofer, but a General Contractor. I'm going to speak for The Roofers (not the G.C.'s). I don't know if A&E removed the shingles and installed step flashing because I see no finished work there, but of course I'd remove the shingles and install new step flashing as well. I believe he was offering a solution to flashing in round/odd shaped stone. 

Second of all, the "Roofers" I know all cut horizontally and step it back. I'm not knocking anybody's methods, but that's how we do it around my way. And we ONLY use Copper (flashing material should always outlast the field material) and I mortar (not caulk) in the new work. But hey, that's just me!

:cheesygri

Here's my definition of a decent job: 








http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7OtGTJl07...dAQ/s1600/copper+chimney+counter+flashing.jpg

Personally, I like the separate pieces for several reasons. 

They move better with the structures individually than one solid piece that could buckle with significant movement and individual pieces can be removed to facilitate access to brick replacement in the future if chimney maintenance is needed.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

I'm glad I'm stoopid!


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## WindowsonWash (Nov 1, 2011)

2ndGen said:


> Wow. Okay. If breathing isn't air moving in an out
> (by whatever means), I don't know what is.
> 
> So, I guess modern builders artificially accomplish what has been done regularly for centuries and now say it's not what it is because they control the means of air movement. In other words, "means" determine definition?


Attic ventilate passively...i.e. no effort from a diaphragm require to bring in air.

The idea of homes breathing is based largely on all the air leakage, stack pressures, and unchecked movement of air. When people talk about a home breathing, they are referring to movement of air out of the home and being replaced by outside air. 

Ventilation is something that can be set and changed as necessary and nothing about the home "breathing" accounts for recovery the energy from the air that is exhausted out. When you breathe, the air that you expel carrying more energy than what came in (provided it is cooler than 98.6°). Is that how you want your home to breathe...losing its energy to outside.

Comparing a 100 year old home to what homes do now is a stretch. Homes that were 100 years old didn't have the amount of internally generated moisture that is present now.

Homes do not need to breathe out of the attic/living space connection either. It is entirely counter productive to the purpose of the attic ventilation by design. 

You can argue semantics but homes, when built to a certain standard, do not need to "breathe" and having a home breathe to compensate for a poor envelope is the equivalent of cutting off your finger for a hangnail.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

maybe you can understand if we put it this way 2gen,

do you cut in a vent or a breathing hole?:balloon:


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

artisanstone said:


> Man, this is one of my biggest pet peeves. Why do roofers feel it is OK to wreck perfectly good masonry? The reglet should be cut on Plumb and level lines. So it adds a little more work for you? Oh freakin' well.
> 
> That chimney was well built and will never be put right again.


the mason who started it, cut the reglet, smoothed out 1 stone and said fill the stones with tar to make a smooth surface to flash against. I told them to take a hike. Secondly, that chimney is not hurt at all.



2ndGen said:


> Because that's how we roll son! What! :laughing:
> 
> Seriously though...
> 
> ...


You are confused, I am not a G.C., last I checked, I am a sub-contract ROOFER. This job I installed the roof, the homeowner initially did not want counterflashing, and the contractor assumed we'd be able to use flashing that was not there, when the homeowner was told we'd have to flash it, they said, "caulk it and see if it passes inspection", which of course it did not. What can I do? 

Yes, I put brand new terratone step along the 1x8

99% of my chimneys get stepped, looks nicer, is faster, sticks better, and if you f-up a piece, you don't waste 5' of coil stock.

I love copper, no one wants to pay for the material though, i work for yellow-page companies. 

Yes, I was pretty much offering a possibly helpful solution for the stone flashing.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> maybe you can understand if we put it this way 2gen,
> 
> do you cut in a vent or a breathing hole?:balloon:


Well, when my father stopped breathing on his own, they put him on a ventilator....not a breathalator.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

Good point Lone.

This thread has really gotten some mileage.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Tom Struble said:


> maybe you can understand if we put it this way 2gen,
> 
> do you cut in a vent or a breathing hole?:balloon:


A vent hole. 
But I don't understand what a "breathing" hole is. 
Does this stop the house from "inhaling/exhausting" air? 
Or, does this facilitate it? 

To you, ventilation "isn't" breathing (exchange of air in/out)? 
Breathing
Ventilation
Definition

To me, both are one in the same.
An exchange of air. 
You disagree? 



loneframer said:


> Well, when my father stopped breathing on his own, they put him on a ventilator....not a breathalator.


You mean like, one of "these"? :whistling
"A *medical ventilator* can be defined as any machine designed to mechanically move breatheable air into and out of the lungs, to provide the mechanism of *breathing *for a patient who is physically unable to breathe, or breathing insufficiently."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_ventilator





> You are confused, I am not a G.C., last I checked, I am a sub-contract ROOFER.


Okay. I only went by two things. You describing what you do as a professional and your name that leaves the door open for your company doing siding, windows, etc... If your job description was "Roofing" (and nothing else), then I would've taken your word that that's all that you do and nothing else.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

WindowsonWash said:


> Attic ventilate passively...i.e. no effort from a diaphragm require to bring in air.
> 
> The idea of homes breathing is based largely on all the air leakage, stack pressures, and unchecked movement of air. When people talk about a home breathing, they are referring to movement of air out of the home and being replaced by outside air.
> 
> ...


So, an airtight house is okay in your opinion (no exchange of air)? 
[simple yes or no question]


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

2ndGen said:


> Okay. I only went by two things. You describing what you do as a professional and your name that leaves the door open for your company doing siding, windows, etc... If your job description was "Roofing" (and nothing else), then I would've taken your word that that's all that you do and nothing else.


just because one is a roofer, does not mean they aren't more than proficient at something else.

edit: i believe we've had this discussion before...


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

jmiller said:


> Good point Lone.
> 
> This thread has really gotten some mileage.


this thread has been  by a ventilation/ ice-dam debate!


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

A&E Exteriors said:


> just because one is a roofer, does not mean they aren't more than proficient at something else.


I agree. I'm pretty good at a lot of stuff too but, I wouldn't call myself anything other than a Roofer (professionally). That's all I charge people for. 

"My" definition of a roofer has roofer's insurance with roofing cited as the nature of his business, roofer's workman's compensation and advertises as a roofer and when it comes to business. But I wouldn't impose my definition on anybody else. 

I've found that guys who have "Exteriors" in their name do that to leave room for other jobs that might come down the pike and to conceal that they are mainly roofing companies to avoid paying our insurance rates. I'm not saying that that's "why" you did that, but I've mostly seen General Contractors use that term in their name and "not" use the word "Roofing" specifically. 

I wouldn't have said you were a G.C. that does "Roofing, Framing, Finish Carpentry". If your profile name was "A&E Roofing" and you cited "Roofing" as your work, I wouldn't have been confused. 







A&E Exteriors said:


> this thread has been  by a ventilation/ ice-dam debate!


I'm learning a lot! :cheesygri
(about how people define what)


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## WindowsonWash (Nov 1, 2011)

2ndGen said:


> So, an airtight house is okay in your opinion (no exchange of air)?
> [simple yes or no question]


Yes.

As long as indoor air quality does not suffer as a result of indoor pollutants.

Most people go in and out of a home more than enough to exchange the air inside the home and not homes are built completely airtight (even passivhaus designs leak some measured amount of air through windows, doors, etc).


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

> 2ndGen said:
> 
> 
> > So, an airtight house is okay in your opinion (no exchange of air)?
> ...


Okay.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

Apparently a 'breathing' hole is plaster with no insulation and single pane windows. A more common term is 'drafty'.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

duplicate


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