# Time/Material Bill Complaint



## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

mahlere said:


> bid high, or do straight T&M with no cap...


I usually bid real high, but lately I am considering the straight out T&M after a few incidents with popcorn ceilings that were going to remain smooth after scraping, and some difficult wallpaper.
But no I wouldn't consider a cap on T&M, that could get in the way real quickly.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I agree.

A cap on T&M would keep me awake at night.


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> I agree.
> 
> A cap on T&M would keep me awake at night.


Yeah, _working_!

:thumbup:

Oh I hate unforeseen late nights...


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## 410tip (Apr 2, 2009)

When I was a young and dumb college student, I bid a house on the Puget Sound with stained eves. Easy house,3,800sf, steep rooflines, but definately a job my buddies and I could crank out in a weekend. This was back in 02, when paint was $16/g. I bid $2750. The eves bled through the first coat of latex primer(my mistake) and the next four coats of oil primer. I set up spot lights and pulled a 24hr shift twice. 14 days later, I earned a whopping $4.50 hr on that job.
Things aren't always as they appear. Lessons are learned, and painters utilize t/m jobs to cover our asses.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

Handymanservice said:


> No. No. No.
> Why is he moonlighting?
> He's a teacher!
> Have you seen what teachers earn? Man, he probably has to moonlight just to have groceries.
> Just curious, is he off base on the price?


One of my #1 guys on the crew is seasonal summer help since he is a teacher (auto shop, construction, skeet) and we got to talking one day and he was crying about teachers not making enough, I laughed and said "Dave" you only work 9 months out of the year, so take your salary and divide it by 9...your doing pretty darn good.

We all chose our career paths, my wife spend big money to become a teacher, while she was in school we had multiple talks...aka arguements about how the ends dont justify the means since she could easily get a job with no education equirements and make MORE money than she does after yrs of college, but her excuse was this was a job she loved....fine, then dont cry your azz off cuz your broke then and hold it against me that i do and buy what i want when i want because i can, i made the decsion to go down the path i created, same as you. So i have zero sympathy for anybody making what they make, you make your bed, lie in it.


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## Dorman Painting (May 2, 2006)

There's certainly situations where T&M are a preferable route. We once did a hotel job in downtown Louisville this way. There was a contractor in ahead of me that was fired for drugging on the job and they actually had 70percent of the work completed. I went out to give a bid and simply couldn't come up with a ballpark figure. I told the super that I'd do it but only on a T&M basis, he loved it and signed the contract immediately. 

I charged 30 a man hour, this was five years ago and loaded the job up with five workers six days a week. There was no cap on the hours or man power and I cleared 50 grand in eight weeks. This is by far the most profitable job I've done and getting a check out of Miami hand delivered by the Fed Ex man for 10 grand every Friday was sweet. 

There's definitely a time and place for a T&M quote, but I never put a cap on the hours.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

If you are good at your craft and know all the pitfalls. You write a contract with clauses and provisions for unforseens. I have never done a T/M contract in my life. 

I know my job and I know how to bid. 

Make a postage stamp wall paper removal clause etc


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

rbsremodeling said:


> If you are good at your craft and know all the pitfalls. You write a contract with clauses and provisions for unforseens. I have never done a T/M contract in my life.
> 
> I know my job and I know how to bid.
> 
> Make a postage stamp wall paper removal clause etc



lol, yeah mkay Captain Perfect...

l.o.l.


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## 410tip (Apr 2, 2009)

IHI said:


> "Dave" you only work 9 months out of the year, so take your salary and divide it by 9...your doing pretty darn good.
> i made the decsion to go down the path i created, same as you. So i have zero sympathy for anybody making what they make, you make your bed, lie in it.


Hell yes, Exactly. I work 9 months a year. Federal holidays off, two weeks for christmas, a week for mid winter, spring break. I get roughly 39,000 for teaching 5,500 for coaching. I bust my ass for damn near 70-80hrs a week in the summer running two crews to make another 25,000 to 30,000 after taxes.
I teach because I love it. I like to coach. I get a good pension and alot of free time. I make ok money, I like to paint because I can turn that ok money into a strong living wage. I make close to 70k a year on a good year.
Not bad. Fortune favors the bold. Take risks, do what it takes to succeed. I harp this to my workers and most importantly my students. Obviously, everyone in this room gets it. Those that take calculated risks and put in their sweat reap the rewards, even after the liberals take a big bite out of our pocket with their frivolus spending of our taxes.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm with IHI.

Don't come crying to us about having a GD education, 410.

Although (unlike IHI), I don't really get to "buy what I want when I want" because my wife spends my money. But I guess that's my own fault (since i created that path, so now i have to lie in that bed).


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

Steve Richards said:


> I'm with IHI.
> 
> Don't come crying to us about having a GD education, 410.
> 
> Although (unlike IHI), I don't really get to "buy what I want when I want" because my wife spends my money. But I guess that's my own fault (since i created that path, so now i have to lie in that bed).


:laughing::laughing: Your not alone my friend, I have ALOT of buddies in that same boat. They come home on friday, hand the wife their check, and they get an allowance for the week. My old electrician used to complain all the time about being stressed/over worked. His wife did'nt work so sparkey was in charge of bringing home the bacon as well as keeping his farm and raising/training his horses they showed and rode in competition. Then one day he stopped taking calls, stopped returning calls, basically just fell off the face of the earth. 4 months later he calls to apologize and had some big health issues arise, most of which were drawn from stress trying to be everything all the time since his wife was going through the money as fast as he brought it in on dumb stuff.

I/we get alot of flack from folks because my wife and i have seperate checking/savings accounts, she pays for certain bills and i pay for certain bills plus give her an allowance of sorts to offset her expenses since she dont make squat..last year was her highest gross since we've been together at $21,400 last year:laughing: So you take out insurance, fed/state,medicare, etc.. from her check and she does'nt take home much at all so basically it takes her entire pay check to pay for her share of the bills...hence my allowance to give her blow money. But she learned long ago never to bite the hand that feeds, a few times she'd try to throw stuff in my face about me just getting whatever i wanted when i wanted it so i'd jump right back and lay it all out that i've busted my azz, continue to bust my azz in order to earn that right, and that she has every opportunity to do the same if she'd step away from the safety net she's accustomed too; fact of the matter is, she's just like alot of people and does'nt have the drive it takes and the want to make things happen, and ingenuity to support when times get tough, so she stays the stable path...which is fine, but dont try to make me feel guilty because i earn my rights to spend/buy what i want. 

Our family does'nt want for anything, bills are always paid, foods always on the table, clothes are always on our back and usually i'm the pne paying for that stuff, so above that she can pound sand. I've told her before, i was getting along just fine before i met you and will get along just fine if we go seperate ways, so you can either STFU, hold onto my belt loops and enjoy the ride, or get to gett'n, either way this train aint slow'n down:no:


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

WisePainter said:


> lol, yeah mkay Captain Perfect...
> 
> l.o.l.


Its not about being perfect. Its about making a profit for my company. You have to write your contract to cover unforseens. Bidding a job correctly is a much more profitable method than T/M. I think T/M becomes a crutch a lot of times for some contractor to avoid bidding difficult tasks.

Once you learn to leave that T/M comfort zone and write a decent contract you tend to make more profit.

My advice is just that advice. If you don't like what I say its cool.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

IHI said:


> ...hence my allowance to give her blow money.


I tried that before...didn't work.




IHI said:


> I've told her before, i was getting along just fine before i met you and will get along just fine if we go seperate ways, so you can either STFU, hold onto my belt loops and enjoy the ride, or get to gett'n, either way this train aint slow'n down:no:


Roll on down that track!


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

rbsremodeling said:


> *If you are good at your craft* and know all the pitfalls. You write a contract with clauses and provisions for unforseens. *I have never done a T/M contract in my life.
> *
> * I know my job and I know how to bid.*
> 
> Make a postage stamp wall paper removal clause etc





rbsremodeling said:


> Its not about being perfect. Its about making a profit for my company. You have to write your contract to cover unforseens. Bidding a job correctly is a much more profitable method than T/M. I think T/M becomes a crunch a lot of times for some contractor to avoid bidding difficult task.
> 
> * Once you learn* to leave that T/M comfort zone and *write a decent contract you tend to make more profit*.
> 
> My advice is just that advice. If you don't like what I say its cool.


I know you aren't referring to me...even though you tossed that postage stamp bit in there.

It isn't what you post, it's how you post it, You make T&M sound disgusting and for those that are retarded.
Apparently you have never met a T&M job...lol, you will.
It's going to hurt, but the best lessons are learned the hard way.

Wait a minute, you don't paint, maybe that is why you can laugh in the face of T&M.

figures.

:w00t:


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I personally don't like T&M, because I don't like people watching the clock for me while I work.


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> I personally don't like T&M, because I don't like people watching the clock for me while I work.



T&M is best served when you are doing a referral job, the built in trust is there.
I have yet to use it, I give straight bids and then try to beat my time to earn the maximum amount of profit. Just finished up a job for a OCD off the chart client; so much so that her husband stopped me to thank me for handling her better than _*any*_ other contractor ever has. 
I set it to be $35.00 hr, came out $65.00.
They both asked me how I get such perfect cut in lines.

:clap:


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Yeah...people don't ask me about my perfect lines..more like they wanna know how come my lines are so crooked.

I tell them to not stand so close.


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> Yeah...people don't ask me about my perfect lines..more like they wanna know how come my lines are so crooked.
> 
> I tell them to not stand so close.



good god.

:blink:


































:laughing:


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

im not a painter but i have a couple buddies who are property managers and are getting into the building game. they were asking me how much to paint a 3000 sq ft house. i told them i cant tell you what it is per sq but all i know that the painters i know charge $28/hr and their some of the best in town, only use top quality material they do all the prep work

builder buddy nearly **** himself, told me i gotta be out of my mind he then went on to say he can get some kids to paint for him at $9 or $10 /hr plus he would buy paint for cheap. last week im talking to him starts preaching to me the importance of using quality painters and high quality materials. guess finally realized what i was telling him. 

this same guy wanted me to trim a 4500 sq ft house which was getting a custom trim package for $3000. he was complaining that no one woul do the work. sooo after declining the offer to trim he then offers me $500 cash to lay 1000-1200 sq ft of hardwood. sorry but i want to be able to take the wife out for no name mr noodles


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## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Just because we paint is no reason to ever charge T&M! T&M is crazy, I don't even see how someone would sign a painter up at a T&M type of contract. What is the incentive to hurry up and get done.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I think he is working it the other way, if you know what I mean.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

rbsremodeling said:


> If you are good at your craft and know all the pitfalls. You write a contract with clauses and provisions for unforseens. I have never done a T/M contract in my life.
> 
> I know my job and I know how to bid.
> 
> Make a postage stamp wall paper removal clause etc


:thumbsup:

How relevant this is.

I met a wealthy man this weekend in a social setting. He finds out I'm in construction and has to tell me all about his latest project and the sour experience he went through. He hired somebody and for whatever reason he lets me know it was hourly (T&M), long story short was he was shocked at how much it came to, thought he had been ripped off based on the final bill. 

Basically my conversation consisted of telling him he got what he deserved. He asked why I thought that and I told him, T&M in remodeling means he hired somebody who can't even figure out how much it costs to produce his service that he does 5 days a week, so he falls back on hourly like an employee putting all risk on the employer/homeowner, I said what do you expect when you hire and agree to something/someone like that? 

He agreed, said he's hired many people over the years but this was the first time he was approached with this set up and would never agree to it again. He thought it strange but wasn't sure since he had never been approached with the arangement before.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> so he falls back on hourly like an employee putting all risk on the employer/homeowner,


Mike, you preach a good line and for the most part I'm right in there with you.

But this is off base. If I perceive a _possibility_, no matter how small, that the job will run over normal costs, you can bet I'm going to bid it way high, just to CMA. But if the job turns out to be "normal" after all, it would be totally unethical and immoral to take the poor guy for a heck of a lot more than the job turned out to be worth.

In a case like that, the fairest deal for both client and contractor is T&M, with a "not to exceed" price. The latter gives the client a modicum of assurance that you're not just going to dog it in order to get way more than the job is actually worth, while giving fair warning that the cost could be more than initially expected.


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## NAV (Sep 5, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> I don't get it, NAV.
> 
> If you're as sure as you say you are about how long this (or any other) job is going to take...then why not just bid it?
> 
> What's in it for YOU to work T&M w/a NTE price?


Repeat business and word of mouth business. the customer feels like they are getting the best possible price. My hourly rate has my profit already figured into it. Sure I could put a hard number on it but it will be at the high end of my time and material number, I make a ton of money on that job but I am risking the homeowner feeling like they didn't get their moneys worth.

I feel that when you are working as a residential contractor you have to build relationships with your customers. communication and trust will pay off with referrals. It is 100 times easier to close a referral sale than a cold call. 

don't forget, if you crush the job and finish quickly you can always charge the time it took to pickup materials to make more money. The homeowner usually wont have a problem with that.


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

NAV said:


> then stop using a postage stamp sized scraper


ha, ha. 
I usually request from the HO that I be able to remove a test spot to assure that neither of us will be hosed at the end.
This is a tough question to propose and I usually only do it when I am a shoe in for the contract. Only a couple of times have I run into a nightmare and it usually when the paper is over that ancient brown paper drywall from 32 B.C.

Otherwise, I don't bid a lot of wallpaper removal jobs (by choice).


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## Mr. Mike (Dec 27, 2008)

> don't forget, if you crush the job and finish quickly you can always charge the time it took to pickup materials to make more money. The homeowner usually wont have a problem with that.


:no:


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## outsidethelines (Oct 19, 2007)

I bid a job that included wallpaper removal that I am working on now. When I bid it, I provided a straight bid for the painting part and T/M for the wallpaper removal and wall prep. I explained to the HO that there is no way to know what is under the wallpaper. I told her how long I would expect the work to take if only one layer, providing a possible time frame with no firm commitment. I explained worst case scenario, and I provided an hourly rate. So, I get into the job and see there are multiple layers, paper over painted paper in some areas, areas where wall repair was done over paper and some really ugly looking walls. Almost every worst case scenario. But, it was ok. I am covered, and she is not upset because I explained ahead of time what could come up, so she was mentally prepared. Best of all, I told her it may take a couple days, and it took a total of two days to remove the paper. The only thing going over is the wall prep. She is happy and I am making good money. Can’t beat that. No “not to exceed” and no firm bid. Just T/M with a detailed explanation prior to. 
However, other than situations of the unforeseen, a contractor who knows his/her job should have no trouble providing a straight bid.
Another unforeseen: Exterior painting where you don't know what you will find after the pressure washing is completed. I had one stucco house where the paint came off in huge pieces due to efflorescence that I was totally unaware of based on previous inspection. It had been painted fairly recently. But the previous owner apparently had some hack slap on some elastomeric over a chalky surface just prior to selling. That is where clauses and provisions come in handy.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

On my brothers house when I removed the wall paper I was delighted to find that the drywall seams had never been mudded. Instead there was clear packing tape over the seams. I am still not sure what the drywall screw holes were filled with, it was white but unsandable. No primer or Shieldz under the paper, just glued straight to the drywall. Mold had formed under the paper all around the bathtub, couldn't see it until the paper was removed. I did this job for free, but there is no way I could have placed a bid on it and not lost my ass.


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