# how to know if unknown wire is "neutral or ground"?



## handyman99 (Aug 27, 2009)

I'm trying to add an outlet from 2 wires that are just hanging out of the wall. I followed the wires to the attic and only one wire goes to the attic. The other wire went somewhere else. 

I tested the one of the wires and found out that it's either a ground or a neutral. How do I find out for sure if this is a "ground" or "neutral". If it's a neutral, then this outlet I'm trying to add is almost complete. I will just need to run a hot wire to the wire in the attic. However, If it's a ground then I will need to run a new romex.

(PS. I posted the same question on DIY and the administrator there closed my thread and instructed me to go to this website.)


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Oh boy.....


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

I hope this is on your own house!


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## handyman99 (Aug 27, 2009)

oldfrt said:


> I hope this is on your own house!


I'm living in the house.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

Rent or own?


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## handyman99 (Aug 27, 2009)

oldfrt said:


> Rent or own?


It's not my place. However, the owner is paying me to do this. I'm asking for help to make sure I'm doing it correctly. 

So how do I know if it's a neutral or ground wire?


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

handyman99 said:


> It's not my place. However, the owner is paying me to do this. I'm asking for help to make sure I'm doing it correctly.
> 
> So how do I know if it's a neutral or ground wire?


 
:furious:Then hire a professional!!!!!!

You will be responsible for any problems and could face legal retribution.:hang:


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Is this knob and tube?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

handyman99 said:


> I'm living in the house.



Where is the closest fire hydrant?


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Your trade is "Plumber". I would suggest hiring an electrician. Two wires coming from different areas would be a serious bell-ringer for me.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Teetorbilt said:


> Your trade is "Plumber". I would suggest hiring an electrician. Two wires coming from different areas would be* a serious bell-ringer* for me.


Maybe you're on to something..They might be the door bell wires...:laughing:


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## Dustyrose (Feb 13, 2009)

You do know that electricity is a dangerous thing. Right? You should probably tell your landlord to hire a professional. 

What ya gonna do when this place goes into flames at 2am when your happy a$$ is asleep?


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## handyman99 (Aug 27, 2009)

oldfrt said:


> :furious:Then hire a professional!!!!!!
> 
> You will be responsible for any problems and could face legal retribution.:hang:



A professional will not do this job. That's the reason I got hired. The electrical in this house is not Code Compliant. A electrician will only rewire the whole house at some $5,000. 

Can you please help me and let me know how to know if it's a neutral or ground?


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

If you don't know how to figure this out you should not go near electrical work..This is pretty basic stuff and the fact you don't have a clue should be a wake up call.


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## handyman99 (Aug 27, 2009)

Dustyrose said:


> You do know that electricity is a dangerous thing. Right? You should probably tell your landlord to hire a professional.
> 
> What ya gonna do when this place goes into flames at 2am when your happy a$$ is asleep?


I replaced a whole circuit breaker. I've worked on electrical for some 20 years. So I have some knowledge. 

A professional will not take this job. The wiring in this house is not code complaint. Please help. 

How do I know if the wire is neutral or ground?


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

handyman99 said:


> A professional will not do this job. That's the reason I got hired. The electrical in this house is not Code Compliant. A electrician will only rewire the whole house at some $5,000.
> 
> Can you please help me and let me know how to know if it's a neutral or ground?


There's a reason for that. You have got to be F-ing kidding me.

Do you know how many people die in house fires every year because of that kind of sh**?????????? :furious::furious::furious::furious:


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## handyman99 (Aug 27, 2009)

JumboJack said:


> Maybe you're on to something..They might be the door bell wires...:laughing:


I'm sure it's not the doorbell wire. The doorbell works fine. Also, the door bell is usually thinner wires. These two wires are electrical for sure.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

handyman99 said:


> I replaced a whole circuit breaker. I've worked on electrical for some 20 years. So I have some knowledge.
> 
> A professional will not take this job. The wiring in this house is not code complaint. Please help.
> 
> How do I know if the wire is neutral or ground?


WOW!!! A whole circuit breaker!!??:laughing:
20 years and you don't know how to identify wires???:blink:


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## handyman99 (Aug 27, 2009)

ChrWright said:


> There's a reason for that. You have got to be F-ing kidding me.
> 
> Do you know how many people die in house fires every year because of that kind of sh**?????????? :furious::furious::furious::furious:


No, I'm serious. This is a duplex, that at one point was one house, now it's a duplex again. So the electrical was changed from 2 meters, to one meter, and now back to 2 meters. 

So can you help me. How do I find out if this wire is neutral or ground?


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

handyman99 said:


> *I'm sure it's not the doorbell wire. The doorbell works fine.* Also, the door bell is usually thinner wires. These two wires are electrical for sure.


I am so glad I was not drinking anything when I read that because it would have most definitely shot out my nose!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## handyman99 (Aug 27, 2009)

K2 said:


> It only matters in compliant or semi compliant installations. Sounds like you just need to hook it up.


thanks for the answer. I will try it first thing in the morning. I thought it would work, I just wanted to make sure.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

handyman99 said:


> Believe it or not, the insurance company just inspected the circuit breakers. However, the inspector didn't take the panal off the circuit breaker, therefore he couldn't tell it was not code compliant. Instead, the inspector was just making sure the house was circuit breaker and not fuses.


 
BUT:
IF you do the work and something happens,they will be concerned enough to refuse to cover any losses!!!


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

handyman99 said:


> It's not my place. However, the owner is paying me to do this. I'm asking for help to make sure I'm doing it correctly.





Dustyrose said:


> You should probably tell your landlord to hire a professional.





handyman99 said:


> A professional will not take this job. The wiring in this house is not code complaint. Please help.


Why are you attempting to do this?

Let the LL pay for a compliant installation.

Why are you willing to live in sub-standard housing?

Let the LL pay for a compliant installation.

A professional will do the work professional at a professional price.
Let the LL pay for a compliant installation.


What is the matter with you??????


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

This is a joke right? 



> However the ground and neutral are still different. So do you think it's a ground or neutral?


Put your multimeter on it.:laughing:



> The wiring has been fine for the last 15 years, so I'm not worried that anything will go wrong.


My roof has been good for 20 years your right why worry about it, they get better with age anyway right?

Instead of killing yourself and/or burning down your house and all your belongings (even if its just half a box of cheerios and a rolling machine) call a different electrician to install your plug. I work with wires everyday and have a college degree in electrical, I do all my own work on my personal property yet if I need to put in a plug or change a switch at a client's house I call my electrician, not because I don't know what I'm doing. Its a liability/insurance issue (not to mention its illegal) smarten up junior!


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## LEVELBEST (Dec 28, 2006)

Dang guys......if someone would just tell him how to tell the difference.....maybe he WON'T get killed! I know the answer.......however, i don't really want to be on the hook if he does it and the place burns down.....

:w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t:


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

I might pitch in and answer the question, but first I have my own plumbing question he must answer for me. I opened up my wall and there were two pipes in it. One was light brownish in color, and the other was big and black. Can I drink the water that comes down big black pipe? Which one is the hot water?? Man these plumbers didn't know what they were doing....


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

How come you haven't just connected it one way or the other - then flip on the breaker and see what happens.

Oh, and realize that I am a framer. I build the structure WAY before the electricians get in there and do their thing. 

I have almost NO electrical wiring knowledge.

So, take that advice for what it is...:no: :w00t:


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## handyman99 (Aug 27, 2009)

LEVELBEST said:


> Dang guys......if someone would just tell him how to tell the difference.....maybe he WON'T get killed! I know the answer.......however, i don't really want to be on the hook if he does it and the place burns down.....
> 
> :w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t:


I have to admit that is one thing that is stupid about this board. I ask a simple question but nobody wants to answer it. Whatever I do is at my own risk. The only reason why I ask this question to be on the safe side. However, if nobody answers the question, then I have to take the risk. I'm trying to avoid the risk by testing if this wire is neutral or ground.

If you can answer the question I would really appreciate it.


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## handyman99 (Aug 27, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I might pitch in and answer the question, but first I have my own plumbing question he must answer for me. I opened up my wall and there were two pipes in it. One was light brownish in color, and the other was big and black. Can I drink the water that comes down big black pipe? Which one is the hot water?? Man these plumbers didn't know what they were doing....


The black pipe (if it is plastic) is either for waste water or for ventilation. The black plastic pipe vents to the roof. If the black pipe is metal, then it's a gas pipe. The brownish pipe (copper pipe) is always for clean water. However, I've seen non-complaint places that actually use copper pipe for gas. Totally illegal. The only way you can tell if it's cold water or hot water is just by feeling the pipe. Run the water for a few minutes. If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask. You can even call me on my cell if you need help. Email me for my number.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

handyman99 said:


> If you can answer the question I would really appreciate it.


I'll answer your question when you answer mine:


Celtic said:


> Why are you attempting to do this?
> 
> Let the LL pay for a compliant installation.
> 
> ...


Fair enough?


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

handyman99 said:


> The black pipe (if it is plastic) is either for waste water or for ventilation. The black plastic pipe vents to the roof. If the black pipe is metal, then it's a gas pipe. The brownish pipe (copper pipe) is always for clean water. However, I've seen non-complaint places that actually use copper pipe for gas. Totally illegal. The only way you can tell if it's cold water or hot water is just by feeling the pipe. Run the water for a few minutes. If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask. You can even call me on my cell if you need help. Email me for my number.



You didn't answer me if I could drink it and you only get one shot at this...:laughing:


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## slowforthecones (Aug 24, 2008)

I think his username says a lot about this person asking the question.

And on contractor talk...there is a very common one 4 letter word we call these handyman. It is "HACK"

I hear there is plenty of room at the home depot parking lot for you to camp out and find new customers....


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## trptman (Mar 26, 2007)

handyman99 said:


> If the black pipe is metal, then it's a gas pipe.


I've got black metal pipes that I just can't figure out. they look like theymight be cast iron and the toilet is hooked to it. I"ve never seen a gas powered toilet before and didn't realizie I had one in my old house. I was gonna put a T in the line to run the gas range in my kitchen , but I can't find the right fitting. can you point me in the right direction?:whistling
seriously, if the 1st electrician won't do the job keep calling others until you can get one to show up and do the job if you are that unsure of what you are doing.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

handyman99 said:


> *The black pipe (if it is plastic) is either for waste water or for ventilation*. The black plastic pipe vents to the roof.* If the black pipe is metal, then it's a gas pipe*. The brownish pipe (copper pipe) is always for clean water. However, I've seen non-*complaint places that actually use copper pipe for gas. Totally illegal*. The only way you can tell if it's cold water or hot water is just by feeling the pipe. Run the water for a few minutes. If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask. You can even call me on my cell if you need help. Email me for my number.


What if the black pipe is C.I.? couldn't that be a vent, soil or waste line?

Ventilation is an HVAC term, I think you meant Vent.

I think you meant non-compliant. 

BTW Copper pipe is legal for gas at least it was when I took the state exam to get my plumbing contractors license.

Are you a licensed plumber or do you just include plumbing in your handyman work? no self respecting licensed contractor would call themselves a handyman.


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## Static Design (Nov 30, 2008)

Match the colors...........duhh


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Mzhandyman


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

After reading 3 pages of posts telling the OP NOT to go any further, yet he still insists, all I can say is:​ 







 

I wonder if I posted a thread in the plumbing forum asking, "I have three pipes going to my water heater. I know one of them is the gas line, one is the cold water, and one is the hot water out. How do I know which one is which? What would happen if I accidently hooked them up wrong?"

Handyman99: If you're hell-bent on hooking this clusterf







k up, go right ahead and throw the dice. It's your life, your insurance, your conscience.​


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

Are well having fun yet gentlement???.. This is supposed a joke thread setup (by some anonymous member) for teasing all OTHER serious members only... 

Ah,... *99 bottles on da wall*.. *keep counting*... :whistling:thumbup:.. I'm outta here... :laughing::thumbsup:


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## handyman99 (Aug 27, 2009)

*it works!!!*

I talked to the owner this morning and told him that I couldn't do the job because I wasn't sure if it was neutral or ground. I explain to him that I wasted 2 hours on the internet trying to figure this out. The owner told me that he is not surprise, all electrician are either arrogant or stupid. The owner stated whenever he dealt with electrician, they give him the same attitude. 

Well to make a long story short, the owner told me that he was sure it was going to work and either way he was going to pay me for the job if I did the job. Originally price I was going to charge him was 2 hours of work at $75.00 an hour. After I told him that I wasn't going to do the job, he increased the pay to 4 hours of work. (Two hours on the internet and 2 hours wiring.) 

I made $300.00 cash and it only took me 45 minutes to install the socket.

I was frustrated yesterday, but the frustration paid off. For once in my life I am thankful that you guys are stupid.


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

handyman99 said:


> I talked to the owner this morning and told him that I couldn't do the job because I wasn't sure if it was neutral or ground. I explain to him that I wasted 2 hours on the internet trying to figure this out. *The owner told me that he is not surprise, all electrician are either arrogant or stupid. The owner stated whenever he dealt with electrician, they give him the same attitude. *
> 
> Well to make a long story short, the owner told me that he was sure it was going to work and either way he was going to pay me for the job if I did the job. Originally price I was going to charge him was 2 hours of work at $75.00 an hour. After I told him that I wasn't going to do the job, he increased the pay to 4 hours of work. (Two hours on the internet and 2 hours wiring.)
> 
> ...


 

Congrats!!.. Now, you shoudl thank all da serious members here for .. their countless hours of.. **consultation**... :thumbup:


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## ampman (Apr 1, 2009)

after reading your posts i don't think i would call anyone stupid


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

handyman99 said:


> ......Well to make a long story short, the owner told me that he was sure it was going to work...


Uh, 'it works' does NOT mean it's SAFE! 

And now you're taking electrical advice from a HOMEOWNER????????



handyman99 said:


> .......For once in my life I am thankful that you guys are stupid.


If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black!


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

handyman99 said:


> I talked to the owner this morning and told him that I couldn't do the job because I wasn't sure if it was neutral or ground. I explain to him that I wasted 2 hours on the internet trying to figure this out. The owner told me that he is not surprise, all electrician are either arrogant or stupid. The owner stated whenever he dealt with electrician, they give him the same attitude.
> 
> Well to make a long story short, the owner told me that he was sure it was going to work and either way he was going to pay me for the job if I did the job. Originally price I was going to charge him was 2 hours of work at $75.00 an hour. After I told him that I wasn't going to do the job, he increased the pay to 4 hours of work. (Two hours on the internet and 2 hours wiring.)
> 
> ...


:laughing:

Seriously..Why would someone pay someone to do something that they do not know how to do?And why would someone charge someone money to do something they have no clue about??


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

The condition you described sounds like knob and tube. If that's the case, you have no business tying new work to it. 

It's no exaggeration to say the risk is fire and loss of life. I hope you sleep well. I am incredibly disappointed this thread was allowed to continue. 

One of the responsibilities of working in someone's home is to counsel them when something they want done is not a good idea. 

I can only hope this was a made up story from some anonymous idiot, getting a nice laugh out of jerking everyone around for so long.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

The ridiculous threads always get the most response but are also the most entertaining.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

ChrWright said:


> The condition you described sounds like knob and tube. If that's the case, you have no business tying new work to it.
> 
> It's no exaggeration to say the risk is fire and loss of life. I hope you sleep well. I am incredibly disappointed this thread was allowed to continue.
> 
> ...


I think you may be right.If it was not K/T then it would just be NMC and the wires would be easy to trace.But when one wire "goes into the attic" and the other "goes someplace else" that sounds like K/T...Unless they guy is even more of a goof then it seems.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

handyman99 said:


> I talked to the owner this morning and told him that I couldn't do the job because I wasn't sure if it was neutral or ground. I explain to him that I wasted 2 hours on the internet trying to figure this out. The owner told me that he is not surprise, all electrician are either arrogant or stupid. The owner stated whenever he dealt with electrician, they give him the same attitude.
> 
> Well to make a long story short, the owner told me that he was sure it was going to work and either way he was going to pay me for the job if I did the job. Originally price I was going to charge him was 2 hours of work at $75.00 an hour. After I told him that I wasn't going to do the job, he increased the pay to 4 hours of work. (Two hours on the internet and 2 hours wiring.)
> 
> ...


You are a funny guy, you are an unlicensed hack and you want us to believe the landlord was stupid enough to pay you $300 to do something you have no clue about.


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## wireless (Nov 2, 2006)

Any chance this is retaliation for Grumpy's post on plumbingzone?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Four pages of posts, and no one has mentioned the PAINFULLY OBVIOUS!

The OP wants to know if one of the wires is a neutral or ground.

As a professional electrician, I KNOW what the difference is between the neutral (correctly called the ground*ed*) and the ground (ground*ing)* conductors.

As *any* _first-year apprentice_ can tell you, the main difference between the two is how they are used in ordinary circumstances. And in ordinary circumstances, ONLY ONE of them will carry current.

The OTHER will only carry current when circumstances are ---not--- ordinary.




Handyman99, you need to leave your wire strippers at home.







Oh, wait, this _is_ your home. In that case, walk into any electrical supply house and turn your strippers in to them. They will have you sign an affidavit to never touch wiring again. Do this, and no charges will be filed, and no one else will get killed.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

handyman99 said:


> I made $300.00 cash and it only took me 45 minutes to install the socket.



...and the cycle continues of the non-compliant wiring done...jacking up the eventual cost of repairing that hovel you call a home :laughing:


I hope you keep marshmallows in the roach infested cabinets arty:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Celtic said:


> ......jacking up the eventual cost of repairing that hovel you call a home .............


How does one repair a pile of smoldering ashes?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> How does one repair a pile of smoldering ashes?



With backhoes and excavating equipment :laughing:


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## trptman (Mar 26, 2007)

This had to be a gag thread. no one in their right mind would come on here and take the continual abuse this guy took, AND KEEP COMING BACK. 
I can believe someone would ask the original question, but not keep coming back after getting ripped over and over.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

It has to be a gag, no one would ask such an assinine question.

Someone post this thread in on the joke page it takes the cake!


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

trptman said:


> This had to be a gag thread. no one in their right mind would come on here and take the continual abuse this guy took, AND KEEP COMING BACK.
> I can believe someone would ask the original question, but not keep coming back after getting ripped over and over.


Not necessarily.

Someone who's been around here before...(someone who's been banned perhaps :whistling)...would know that even in the midst of all the flaming--someone usually ends up coughing up some info.


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## mccarty.74 (Jul 4, 2009)

OP, you said yourself that you have the ability to do it yourself. Then please figure it out. Call me after 10 tomorrow and I'll have the dumpsters and skidsteers there by lunch. We'll have the lot cleared by 5.


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## slowforthecones (Aug 24, 2008)

This is way too funny....... handyman on CT asking for advice. Go get a qualified professional...yah loser go back to the home depot parking lot job line.


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## slowforthecones (Aug 24, 2008)

Celtic said:


> With backhoes and excavating equipment :laughing:


i'll provide that...


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

slowforthecones said:


> i'll provide that...



:thumbup:


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

No one brought up the idea that the landlord WANTS the home to burn down and is setting up the handyman for a fall. I'm sure the pay was 'cash'. I can here the landlord now, "I did not authorize or pay for any of the modifications made to that structure by my RENTER and have no liability for the deaths of his wife and children. Kindly remit my check for $250k; "Sorry about your dead family. That's a bummer dude. oh my insurer has some questions for you..."


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