# Why Do Framer's Get No Respect on this Site?



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Form carpenters build forms to pour concrete and say things like, "this ain't no pi-ano" a lot. Allowable tolerances are on a level with general wood framing, but their work does have to be done right or the forms blow out when the concrete is poured, as opposed to framing, where the defects may take years to become evident.

As with any job, "passable" is easy, but only the skilled can excell. JustaFramer may be an execellent framer; how would I know?


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

I got a good laugh from the "form carpenter" I had flash backs to the stint I did with a concrete business (swore I'd never pour mud-but I did for a summer) I had done remodeling/rough/finish carpentry for yrs prior to doing my stint with concrete. I knew the FIRST DAY I was in for a treat, they had me cutting boards for forms....my FIRST QUESTION was how many inches do you need it?

all 8 guys laughed their asses off? INCHES?? what's that??!! make it 6 feet long. "This is concrete, not carpentry" 

Not breaking balls, but anybody that's worked for a concrete crew, you know what i'm talking about LOL!!! But in all seriousness, when doing large forms, gutter boxes, stairs, etc...you do need a clue-somewhat-otherwise you just lost how many $$$ of mud.:furious: I like to flip my buddies that are true concrete fanatics and VERY good at their trade crap every time I see them, I tell em it's just concrete, or anybody can do this kind of work and it usually starts the fire and the day progresses nicely from there LOL!!:laughing:


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## old27 (Feb 13, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> I am a form carpenter, which is only a couple steps above framer...



TScar-

Thanks for the replies earlier...

I have yet another Friday Night Blues question:

Regarding your statement above, are you saying that form carps make more money than framing carps payscale stepwise, or did you mean that form carpentry requires a higher skill level than framing carpentry?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Well, pay is relative, as is skill. A good framer is worth whatever he can demand in wages, same as a form carpenter. Deficiencies are more readily apparent for the form carpenter, though, as his handiwork will either hold, or it won't, as soon as he is done and the concrete is poured.

6 mis-driven nails though a shredded header will hold, it won't be seen by anyone, and it won't cause the joint to fail, but it still poor workmanship and is "acceptable".


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

There is a hierarchy of woodworking in my mind, though individual craftmanship is what really counts regardless of the trade.

Furniture
Cabinet
Finish/Trim
Rough
Form
Framing

None is better than the other, per se, but you can bet that from the top down one can do the others below, while the opposite is often not true. They are all skilled trades of course, and it is just as hard to be a master framer as it is to be a master furniture maker.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Dude rough carps are framers. I have alot of friends that are form carps. The only carps I have ever had problems with are sheetrockers and trimmers. Never over my work it's just the fact that it's a different mind set.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

That is all it is no matter what level: State of Mind.

A craftsman cares about what his works looks like, even if he is the only person that will ever see it, while 
justanemployee will bang nails into wood and consider it a good day based on LnFt cut and filled with nails.


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## old27 (Feb 13, 2005)

TIME OUT!!!!!!!!!!

TScar-

Now I need to get your definition of a Rough Carpenter versus a Framing Carpenter. Thanks in advance.

-Eric


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

You forget luthiers, inlayers, fretworkers and many other woodworkers who are far removed from the construction industry.

In my experiance your list is incorrect. Form carps tend to be the worst.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Like the man said they are about the same, but a rough carpenter will do woodwork not involved with balloon construction; deck work, infill and remodel. Call it non-structual framing.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Teetorbuilt, you can expand it to banjo builders if you want, but those trades you list all fall into cabinet, furniture or finish carpentry. I won't argue that some of the worst, by tolerances, are form carpenters.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> Like the man said they are about the same, but a rough carpenter will do woodwork not involved with balloon construction; deck work, infill and remodel. Call it non-structual framing.


So the guy stuffing insulation is a rough carpenter. Ok a carpenter yes, a rough carp no.

And the word your looking for is Utility Carp.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The guy stuffing insulation probably doesn't have a hammer on his belt loop, and almost certainly can't lay out stair treads on a framing square, so I would call him an insulator or a handiman, if he can do both.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> The guy stuffing insulation probably doesn't have a hammer on his belt loop, and almost certainly can't lay out stair treads on a framing square, so I would call him an insulator or a handiman, if he can do both.


Sorry in the grand scheme he is a carp and especially if he is Union.:laughing: So are sheet rockers. Tape and mudders belong with the painters/wall finishers.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Texas is a right to work state, so I don't "do" unions, though I paid my bribes to the BA of the laborer local as a kid. 
Oddly enough, I worked on the IBEW building in Houston that was built with non-union labor because they did not want to pay union wages. Go figure.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Ts, I happen to play a 5 stringer (banjo) and classical Spanish/Flamencan. Also build guitars classical and electric (my son). Comparing this to most other types of woodworking is ludicrous.

Why are you here? What have you contributed? You appear to be bored and just need to stir the pot somewhere, maybe another site might be more suited to your needs.


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## old27 (Feb 13, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> Like the man said they are about the same, but a rough carpenter will do woodwork not involved with balloon construction; deck work, infill and remodel. Call it non-structual framing.



Okay okay okay okay....

I think before you or I lose any (more lol) credibility, I need to know where you get your definitions from. Something doen't jibe here....and if you don't mind me asking, please describe balloon construction...where i live ballon framing must mean something different than where you live. thanks again for your time...


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Balloon framing just means using long enough studs to reach from sill to plate. As for rough vs frame carpenter, let's put it like this:

All framers are rough carpenters, but not all rough carpenters are framers.

Teetorbuilt, I was not insulting fine woodworking, quite the contrary.


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

Teetorbilt said:


> Comparing this to most other types of woodworking is ludicrous.
> 
> .


Aside from blowing your own horn, Why in the hell did you introduce it into this thread than? Even though this thread is dumb I think TS is just giving an objective opinion.


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

Who really cares about any of this? 

Respect is earned, not deserved. 

Another thing...don't worry so much about what other people think...I'll never beg for anyone's respect. Don't need it. Love me or leave me....aidios. :clap:


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

AdamMeider said:


> All I got to say is why are the framers givin no respect among the trade. I think what it boils down to is this. Framers are givin no respect when it comes to anyone. We build your houses so you other trades have a job. You blame all your crap on us to your builders. Trim carpenters blame framers for allot of things. The wall is not straight etc.
> 
> The drywallers blame the framer, The siders blame the framer. The electricians blame the drywallers. The plumbers blame the framers.
> 
> I am a all around carpenter. rough,finish etc. I can frame it finish it.


I must beg to differ some. You build the house so YOU have a job. Not so I have a job. I paint the house so that I have a job. If you don't build it, someone else will. GC's contract the jobs so that YOU have a house to build. It seems you think there should be some sort of respect handed out just because you put a frame up. It doesn't work like that. 

Yes, ANY trade that follows another usually has something to say about the previous guy. It goes on at every jobsite on the planet. Get used to it. This isn't about respect. If your work is outta whack, the next fella is going to complain because he has to take measures to make it right. It goes on the whole way down the line until a house or building is finished. Of course all of the complaints will filter down to what the framers did. You build the foundation that EVERY other trade must work off of. 

NONE of this has anything to do with respect. It has to do with performance. If framers don't perform, everyone else works harder. Period. Now, if you guys will drop this high and mighty, I deserve respect attitude, you might start to earn some respect by your actions and your demeanor, not just because you nailed sticks together.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

It's always blame the framer. NO it boils down to blame the GC they get what they pay for. Period they want fast and they want quick and don't give a a ******************** if it's dirty half the time. They buy the cheapest lumber package they get they're hands on. The GC's know what they are doing that is why every plat they do is a seperate entity from their business that is just the go between for the trades. So if some one sues the money will be taken out of the plat money and not the GC's business will not be tarnished. But if it ever got that far the business are lock in with LLC's and INC's. Everbody wins but the buyer.


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## logical (Jan 5, 2006)

If going first was the end all....stump grinders would rule the industry.


* I was gonna make a more profound post but this thread isn't worthy.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

logical said:


> If going first was the end all....stump grinders would rule the industry.



Funny thing is I run with some Operators,Pipe layers,and Form Carps. :laughing: One of the first in; one of the first to get paid. I even know carpet layers that have the GC sign a pre-lien form because they know they're one of the last to get paid. :laughing:


:laughing: all the way to the bank.


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## A+Carpenter (Apr 19, 2005)

AAPaint said:


> NONE of this has anything to do with respect. It has to do with performance. If framers don't perform, everyone else works harder. Period. Now, if you guys will drop this high and mighty, I deserve respect attitude, you might start to earn some respect by your actions and your demeanor, not just because you nailed sticks together.



Just remember the guys that put what you call sticks together are what keeps you painting Mr.Picaso.

WE=FRAMERS=CARPENTERS=YOUR CHECK WHEN IT BOILS DOWN TO IT. :thumbsup: 

Everyone else works harder?WTF was that statement? I thought hard work pays off?


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## A+Carpenter (Apr 19, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> Funny thing is I run with some Operators,Pipe layers,and Form Carps. :laughing: One of the first in; one of the first to get paid. I even know carpet layers that have the GC sign a pre-lien form because they know they're one of the last to get paid. :laughing:
> 
> 
> :laughing: all the way to the bank.


YEA NO DOUBT HUH? I SECOND THAT NOTION WITH NO REGARD.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Try and sell a bunch of sticks to a homeowner, Mr. Carpenter.

There is no one trade that depends upon another for their job. The product is a complete house (or office, or warehouse, or factory), and all of the trades have an integral part in building it.

If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, it is the developers who provide a living for us all (may their soul rot in hell).


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

AAPaint said:


> If framers don't perform, everyone else works harder.





AdamMeider said:


> Everyone else works harder?WTF was that statement? I thought hard work pays off?


I happen to agree with Paint.
Yes hard work pays off Adam, but if you gave a price for hard work, and someone else's mistake, or laziness, caused you to work more, or harder, for that same price you'd be pised off too. 



I actually can't believe this lame thread is still alive.


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## King of Crown (Oct 12, 2005)

Tscarborough said:



> Try and sell a bunch of sticks to a homeowner, Mr. Carpenter.
> 
> There is no one trade that depends upon another for their job. The product is a complete house (or office, or warehouse, or factory), and all of the trades have an integral part in building it.
> 
> If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, it is the developers who provide a living for us all (may their soul rot in hell).


I know allot of good developers. and some bad ones, but more good ones than bad. and actually its the home owners who need someplace to live, which is every single one of us, who give the developers jobs, so if we all decide to not have kids, or make our lives better, we can really stick it to those evil developers.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Yeah, I know some good ones, I was just feeding the whole, "I ain't rich so they must be screwing me" mentality of this thread.


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, it is the developers who provide a living for us all (may their soul rot in hell).


I've read this thread for humor from the beginning until now and been able to keep my mouth shut, but sorry men, I can't any longer based on the quote above and all the other b*ll$hit before it. 

It is NOT the developers, the GC's, the framers, stumpgrinders..rough this or finish that who provide us all a living! It is the homeowners, the buyers, the people whom purchase our products and services... and if you don't go to your job every morning with the intentions of turning out something of quality and not half a$$ed slapped together, then maybe it's time to change careers. 

Alot of post have mentioned bad framing, shoddy here and there that all trickles down the trades. Blame the trade before you for mistakes and bad work. I've only been working in construction for a few years now, but if the day comes that my company, it's employees, subs or even the architects start showing this much competition between them and the quality of the work suffers because of the blame game.. I'd close the doors for good. I think every one of the trades all must work together with the same goal of getting the work done right or else every one suffers the same. 

Now, I'm officially shut up on this thread. It has lost any useful purpose or credibility.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

"but if the day comes that my company, it's employees, subs or even the architects start showing this much competition between them and the quality of the work suffers because of the blame game."

Never worked on a big commercial job, have you? I agree with you 100%, BTW, and have never understood why it was such an adversarial thing.


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## Artisanmike (Mar 3, 2006)

Framers couldnt tell a level from a potato. Plumbers are all crack.Drywallers cut with their teeth.Painters need to quit hyper-ventilating in those brown paper bags. GC's need to simultaneoulsy pull that finger from thier noses and that thumb from their a$$es.And all you tradesmen need to f'n clean up after yourselves or at least have your moms come in and do it for you. For the trades I might have over looked, you have my apologies. I had to finally once and for all locate that g'damn pea from under my stack of mattresses. I dont think I can take it one more night.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

I think every one is looking at this the wrong way. If every house was a custom them only the best would have jobs. However by the statements made on this thread I can tell the ones bitxhing you work in tracts. Typical work in a tract is half-assed. The reason for this is the developers have lots of money tied into these plats and they want results quick before the market becomes more unstable. Like now sure there is alot of residential work still on the table but it is projected that commercial will take the lead this year and the following. The time is now to get all the money you can from the residential sector what ever form it may be. 

I hope some of you cats are ready to bid in the big show.


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## Junglistic (Oct 5, 2021)

AAPaint said:


> I must beg to differ some. You build the house so YOU have a job. Not so I have a job. I paint the house so that I have a job. If you don't build it, someone else will. GC's contract the jobs so that YOU have a house to build. It seems you think there should be some sort of respect handed out just because you put a frame up. It doesn't work like that.
> 
> Yes, ANY trade that follows another usually has something to say about the previous guy. It goes on at every jobsite on the planet. Get used to it. This isn't about respect. If your work is outta whack, the next fella is going to complain because he has to take measures to make it right. It goes on the whole way down the line until a house or building is finished. Of course all of the complaints will filter down to what the framers did. You build the foundation that EVERY other trade must work off of.
> 
> NONE of this has anything to do with respect. It has to do with performance. If framers don't perform, everyone else works harder. Period. Now, if you guys will drop this high and mighty, I deserve respect attitude, you might start to earn some respect by your actions and your demeanor, not just because you nailed sticks together.


👍👍


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## Junglistic (Oct 5, 2021)

AAPaint said:


> I must beg to differ some. You build the house so YOU have a job. Not so I have a job. I paint the house so that I have a job. If you don't build it, someone else will. GC's contract the jobs so that YOU have a house to build. It seems you think there should be some sort of respect handed out just because you put a frame up. It doesn't work like that.
> 
> Yes, ANY trade that follows another usually has something to say about the previous guy. It goes on at every jobsite on the planet. Get used to it. This isn't about respect. If your work is outta whack, the next fella is going to complain because he has to take measures to make it right. It goes on the whole way down the line until a house or building is finished. Of course all of the complaints will filter down to what the framers did. You build the foundation that EVERY other trade must work off of.
> 
> NONE of this has anything to do with respect. It has to do with performance. If framers don't perform, everyone else works harder. Period. Now, if you guys will drop this high and mighty, I deserve respect attitude, you might start to earn some respect by your actions and your demeanor, not just because you nailed sticks together.


👍👍


Tscarborough said:


> Try and sell a bunch of sticks to a homeowner, Mr. Carpenter.
> 
> There is no one trade that depends upon another for their job. The product is a complete house (or office, or warehouse, or factory), and all of the trades have an integral part in building it.
> 
> If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, it is the developers who provide a living for us all (may their soul rot in hell).



👍


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Junglistic said:


> 👍👍


Do framers suck 15 years later?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

avenge said:


> Do framers suck 15 years later?


It's not _framers_. It's _framer's_.

Thi's i's the innernet's. Every word that end's with an 's i's supposed to be with an apostrophe. Everyone know's that!


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Junglistic said:


> 👍👍
> 
> 
> 
> 👍


🙄

How _do_ you morons find this crap??

And what, in the name of all that’s holy, would entice you to you dig it up, and then comment on it??


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

Old is new for a new guy.

I love framing. I wish it paid better.


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

480...Not exactly...

Add just s to word for plural...............Framers, more than one framer.
Add 's to word for possession.....Framer's , one framer who is in possession of something.
Add s' for plural possession........Framers, multiple framers who are in possession of something.

I often butcher this, but it's not worth picking apart.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Railman said:


> 480...Not exactly...
> 
> Add just s to word for plural...............Framers, more than one framer.
> Add 's to word for possession.....Framer's , one framer who is in possession of something.
> ...


I understand thi's. But there are folk's who honestly believe *any *word that end's with an 's need's to have an apostrophe in it.

And then there are those who dispose of punctuation capitalization and sentence structure and even spelling altogether they right like there texting theyre GF run off with endless paragraphs that take several minutes to decipher


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## AllanE (Apr 25, 2010)

Whether there is an apostrophe or not, in my opinion and from experience the framer is the most important sub working on my jobs.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

A comma goes after "experience".


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

480sparky said:


> I understand thi's. But there are folk's who honestly believe *any *word that end's with an 's need's to have an apostrophe in it.
> 
> And then there are those who dispose of punctuation capitalization and sentence structure and even spelling altogether they right like there texting theyre GF run off with endless paragraphs that take several minutes to decipher


Jeebus.... Are their girlfriends retarded or something?


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Framers are a very dirty people. They are ignoble beasts, veritable neanderthals really. Brutish of nature and deed. Dragging their knuckles across the job site and peeing on the materials with naked abandon.

Wherever three or more congregate you can expect trouble to soon happen.


Andy.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Now finish carpenters are a very clean and noble race of man.

Graceful and elegant in speech and wise in the ways of the world. Never a cross word passes their lips.

Andy.


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## JFM constr (Jul 26, 2014)

I think Andy is on to something there


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## 51carpenter (Jul 4, 2016)

Funny. 

I’m a framer this week, I have to clean my act up and go trim out a house next week. 

Switch from structural select doug fir to quarter sawn white oak. 

I prefer framing until winter, but I like doing all carpentry to keep it interesting. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Framers are the smartest and coolest on the job. 


Mike.
*___*


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Framers are a very dirty people. ......





ScipioAfricanus said:


> Now finish carpenters are a very clean ......


That's because the MEP trades haven't been on-site to do their thing when the framers are. So the framers are working in the stifling heat, with no lights, and no flush toilets.

The trim carpenters have AC, the lights have been installed, and can take a shyte in a flush toilet. This is why they trim the bathroom door first.


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