# Help me out on how to do this one.



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

This is the veiw above a dropped ceiling in a kitchen. I need to gain the 1 foot back taking the ceilings from 7 feet back to 8 by removing the dropped ceiling and tucking all the pipes and wires back up between the joists of the floor above. I'm not too worried about all the copper and electrical lines or the main 4 inch drain running parralel to the floor joists.

The problem is down on the far end where the 4 drains T back into the main (actually 3 into the main with 2 that T back into 1 in the photo that shows the left hand smaller branch) . How do I tuck that up into the joists? 

With the dropped ceiling removed there will be easy access to it all, but what about cutting into those joists to run the left and right branch into that main drain line? The joists are 2x10s, (9" actual). 2 to cross on the left hand smaller branch and 1 to cross on the right hand side. The place where these pipes are is right up against the rim joist at least and the span is about 12 feet coming back to the camera.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

What size are those smaller branch pipes..1 1/2" or 2"??


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

They should be 2 inchs on the left. The drains are for a bathtub and a vanity on the left the one going straight up in the middle picture should be from a toilet and the one on the far right I believe is a vent.


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

Mike, that is a tough one.

I think you can come up with something but you need to remove the drop ceiling to get a better look at the situation.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

It all comes down to code right, as long as there is enough room to redo the plumbing, it all just comes down to being able to run it through the 3 joists legally.

Do I have the code correct here? For a floor joist you can't bore a hole greater than 1/3 the joist within 2 inches of the joist edge right? So I have a 9 " joist but a 4 inch hole so that pushes the code. For notching you can't do more than 1/6 the depth of the joist which only gives me 1 1/2" to notch and only notching allowed is on the end 1/3rds of a joist, which is where I am anyways. 

Notching won't do me really any good other than not gaining the full 1 foot I want to recover as I would at best still have to fur down at least 3 inches. I can bore the two joists on the left to run the 2" pipes and be legal it seems, but the one on the right looks to be too big to fit with the 1/3 maximum bore hole. 

Is there an exception if you sister the joists to strengthen them?


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

You got yourself a goody here Mike. I can see pulling most of it off with the exception of the pipe coming in from the left in photo 1. It appears that the underside of the joist will have to be notched to maintain the pitch of the pipe, that's a no-no. You could notch and go with a tension strap, inletted or under but that is going to require an engineers stamp.


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## ron schenker (Dec 11, 2005)

Mike, just curious what is that 14/2 Romex wire coming down dangerously close to the nails in pictures 2 and 3?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

ron schenker said:


> Mike, just curious what is that 14/2 Romex wire coming down dangerously close to the nails in pictures 2 and 3?


It's most likely a wire coming through a bottom plate of a wall directly above it I would think. Maybe? Not sure at this point.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Teetorbilt said:


> I can see pulling most of it off with the exception of the pipe coming in from the left in photo 1. It appears that the underside of the joist will have to be notched to maintain the pitch of the pipe, that's a no-no. You could notch and go with a tension strap, inletted or under but that is going to require an engineers stamp.


Crap you know I for some reason thought the left side was going to be a piece of cake, just involving cutting of the pipes near the subfloor and re-running them so they hit the middle of the joist, but now that you pointed that out, that would involve having to access the one you are talking about all the way to it's source. I think it is doable, but it will involve opening up another 3-4 feet of the ceiling out side this dropped portion.

How about the copper pipes in picture 1 running through the bottom 2 inches of the joist.:whistling I'm wondering if the building dept is going to want that changed if we start mucking about up there?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Anybody help me out with the code here? Should I just take these pictures up to my building dept and have them tell me what I can do? 

Where's are all you geniuses at on this one?????


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Anybody help me out with the code here? Should I just take these pictures up to my building dept and have them tell me what I can do?
> 
> Where's are all you geniuses at on this one?????


Mike,

You should go and buy the CodeCheck books they sell. I am an absolute retard when it comes to remembering code details and those CodeCheck books are absolutely fantastic. I had an issue involving notching and they had the answers (with a diagram to boot!). They have them for all the trades.

The diagrams are so good in fact, that I've actually proved I was right to an inspector who was ready to fail something because (as usual) he didn't know the code as well as he thought.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Greg Di said:


> Mike,
> 
> You should go and buy the CodeCheck books they sell. I am an absolute retard when it comes to remembering code details and those CodeCheck books are absolutely fantastic. I had an issue involving notching and they had the answers (with a diagram to boot!). They have them for all the trades.
> 
> The diagrams are so good in fact, that I've actually proved I was right to an inspector who was ready to fail something because (as usual) he didn't know the code as well as he thought.


Thanks Greg, I have the actual code books so I know what they say but I don't know what the exceptions are, like Teetor pointed out about tension straps or my thoughts about sistering?

Those CodeCheck books are good though, I agree with you on how much of a good crutch they are. I'm retarded on the code too. What I do is everytime I run into an actual code situation I write it into my personal code book so I can refer back to it. Nothing like writing down what the inspector is telling you right in front of him, and it works pretty well since you usually end up running into a lot of the same stuff over and over again. Unfortunatly I haven't run into anything this complex before.

They got me good on a laundry room we were remodeling. They want built in anti water hammers in any water lines feeding a "machine with a valve" as they put it. The plumber didn't know it and I didn't. Luckily they allowed a set of screw in ones at the taps. Now that little tid bit is in my book!


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## Blackhawk (Nov 12, 2005)

i may not be getting this all right but i wonder if u cant just add on to the two inch for boring ur holes and reconnect your t ondown that pipe somewhere ..just something to think on im not sure but tryin


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## scentralpirate (Nov 16, 2005)

what about turning the whole deal 180* and re-routing it the other direction into the far wall, then down, and re-hook it together?

alittle bit of drywall patch & repair, but it seems you are going to be doing a bunch of demo anyway so one more sheet of rock isn't gonna hurt.

I guess I would also need to see into the room below to better understand the bigger picture.


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

How much did you allow for this in your estimate?

What has your plumber suggested?

What has your engineer suggested? 

Wood I joists? Microllam? Steel? Flitch beam?


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Mike, those copper pipes caught my eye right off. I assumed that they had already passed the first insp. and would be grandfathered in.


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## JPV123 (Sep 14, 2005)

I was able to run a 4" drain through 2 2x10 joists on a remodel I did last year. The plumbing supply sold these steel brackets in the shape of a long U that wrapped the joist. Sort of like a joist hanger but thicker guage. It was a bout 12" long and had a 4" hole through it. It can go anywhere on the joist. I don't remember if it gets screwed on or nailed on. put it uses plenty of fasteners. It all passed code. This is in Virginia so your code may be different.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Can't ya just 'header' off the joists at the far end?? Then just move everything straight up?? Double-up with some sisters where you 'header-in'.


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## Eric K (Nov 24, 2005)

Is that a drywalled drop ceiling?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

mikesewell said:


> How much did you allow for this in your estimate?
> 
> What has your plumber suggested?
> 
> ...


Mike, good questions no doubt. For the engineer - now damn, I want to avoid that. Estimate isn't even on paper yet, these are repeat customers and we have lots of time, they are still recovering financially from the last round of stuff We are in the what can we do and what makes sense stage.

As for the plumber, well without going into a long story, I'm trying to avoid bringing him in on this yet. To be honest both my plumber and electrician got me red flagged on both the rough plumbing and electrical inspections on the last project. I don't know what the deal is, both good guys, both doing this a while but damn, what the hell! I want to get my own information on this one since these guys seem to have a habit of getting into trouble with unusual circumstances.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

KBKConstruction said:


> Is that a drywalled drop ceiling?


Yes it is.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

JPV123 said:


> I was able to run a 4" drain through 2 2x10 joists on a remodel I did last year. The plumbing supply sold these steel brackets in the shape of a long U that wrapped the joist. Sort of like a joist hanger but thicker guage. It was a bout 12" long and had a 4" hole through it. It can go anywhere on the joist. I don't remember if it gets screwed on or nailed on. put it uses plenty of fasteners. It all passed code. This is in Virginia so your code may be different.


Any idea what they are called or where to find a picture or information on them? That might be right up my alley on this.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Tom R said:


> Can't ya just 'header' off the joists at the far end?? Then just move everything straight up?? Double-up with some sisters where you 'header-in'.


Tom, I'm not sure what you mean by all of that. You gotta take it sloooooow, it's me remember?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Any idea what they are called or where to find a picture or information on them? That might be right up my alley on this.


I don't know what they are called but I second the thought on using steel. You could even have your local metal fabricator make something out of 3/16" steel. Have it wrap around the joist and put a few through bolts in it.

As for Tom's header idea sounds good on paper but eventually you will still have to go through a 2x10 joist. Maybe if you did a triple joist and punched through that it would hold, but I still think the steel is the way to go.


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> ...For the engineer - now damn, I want to avoid that...As for the plumber, well without going into a long story, I'm trying to avoid bringing him in on this yet...


I'm not sure why one would avoid having an engineer do the engineering, or why one would avoid having a plumber do the plumbing. I just read a thread a couple of days ago where a guy wanted to avoid having a surveyor do the surveying. 

I'm not sure what the thought process is here, but I can tell you that it's quick, easy, and cost effective to hire good design professionals, and good tradesmen, and have them each do the job for which they are properly trained. 

I meet with my engineer, on site, to go over the job before before any work starts. It costs VERY little. After that, most of these dinky little problems can be solved with an exchange of field sketches via email. This one is a piece of cake. I doubt that he'd even charge me for it.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

mikesewell said:


> I'm not sure why one would avoid having an engineer do the engineering, or why one would avoid having a plumber do the plumbing. I just read a thread a couple of days ago where a guy wanted to avoid having a surveyor do the surveying.
> 
> I'm not sure what the thought process is here, but I can tell you that it's quick, easy, and cost effective to hire good design professionals, and good tradesmen, and have them each do the job for which they are properly trained.
> 
> I meet with my engineer, on site, to go over the job before before any work starts. It costs VERY little. After that, most of these dinky little problems can be solved with an exchange of field sketches via email. This one is a piece of cake. I doubt that he'd even charge me for it.


You're probably right on with that advice. But, I thought I explained the plumber issue. (Plumber will do the plumbing but only after I'm sure of what the plumbing will be) As for the engineer I guess until you brought one up I never even considered that this was that much of a problem, seemed more of an issue of what can be done considering the code rather than what needs to be engineered.


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## A+Carpenter (Apr 19, 2005)

Id likes to comment on this. See the copper 45 upright? There is your 12 inches for your 7' to 8' height your needing. Ids take the joist and run your pipes threw them. Relocate your brass through holes also. I see this all the time and have run into this problem also on this project.

http://www.crosswindsconstruction.com/images/remodel490.jpg


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

Irc (2003) R502.8 / Pg 93


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> To be honest both my plumber and electrician got me red flagged on both the rough plumbing and electrical inspections on the last project.


You mean they failed the rough inspections? I wouldn't hold it against them. Sometimes inspectors fail things for the sake of failing them if there are unusual circumstances. It's easier to fail something they've never encountered before than to pass it on the spot. Theses guys are in serious CYA mode all the time. If it's not vanilla, they get scared...

Let us know how you make out.


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## sage (Feb 3, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Any idea what they are called or where to find a picture or information on them? That might be right up my alley on this.


Mike try www.metwood.com and go to products and reinforcer technologies.

Hope it helps.:thumbsup:


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## Nick H (Nov 13, 2005)

Mike, where does the 4 inch drain run to ? I'm thinking you could maybe run the smaller pipes between the joists towards the camera and then drop them down when you reach the wall at this (camera) end. If the drain drops at this piont it would be easy enough to spigot into it. Possibly ?


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## Eric K (Nov 24, 2005)

Just an idea......

What if you take the drain pipes to the left and right of the main drain and elbow them towards the camrea right at the upper floor. Run them to the wall starting at the top of the joist ending near the bottom at the end. From there elbow both into the main drain line under the joists by building a bulk head in the ceiling and maybe a pantry cabinet under it. The only problem is the pipe at the left that comes out of a joist, looks like a bathroom sink drain? Maybe able to raise that if its accessible from the vanity cabinet. Let me know what you think about that bowl of soup.:blink:


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## Eric K (Nov 24, 2005)

I didnt relize I may have stole Nick H's idea. Didnt read that one before posting.


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## ricks_plumbing (Jan 2, 2006)

not sure since i cant see the whole situation but the bottom pic looks easy bore a hole in middle of joist to catch toilet and the drain can be tucked into the joists depending on the distance you are having to run as for the first two pics I wondr if you could run them individually parrelel with the joists drop them all in same wall and tie together on your vertical in wall instead of in the ceiling


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## JustRightCo (Feb 20, 2006)

This this get resolved yet I dieing to see who's Idea worked best


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I posted an update as a new thread.


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