# Things every Journeyman Carpenter should know...



## BrianG (Sep 1, 2007)

Hi all,

I'm Brian, a Carpenter Apprentice, and this will serve as an introduction post too. I've been in the trade a few years and always want to learn something more. And it seems the more I learn, the less I know!

Obviously learning should never stop, but in my opinion you should be able to give a journeyman a set of prints, a sight level and elevation, and maybe a laborer or helper and he should be able to get to work.
*
So, regardless of your specialty (trim, drywall, framing, forms, etc), what are things you think every journey level carpenter should know?* I'm sure plenty of times you may have thought of this when either training someone or when someone did not know something.

Thanks for all the information I've picked up from these forums, I look forward to your responses.

Brian


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

*Welcome to the forum Brian*

Ability to lay out framing, stairs, roof rafter layout, take off materials, Ability to use tables found on a framing square, ability to calculate board feet, volumes, area, baluster spacing, Ability to visualize the finished product, ability to spot complications well in advance to avoid them, Ability to be be detail oriented. Ability to work around and plan your framing or project for other trades and to make their job easier without slowing you down. ability to schedule tasks in their correct order. Ability to use time management skills. for example don't go up or down a ladder or back to your truck empty handed if materials or equipment need to be moved.


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## BrianG (Sep 1, 2007)

*thank you*

Thanks for the response and list!


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Welcome, it sounds like you'll do well. AW knows whats he's talking about and summed it up pretty good. Hang in there and you'll be the man.:thumbsup:


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## curapa (Oct 8, 2007)

> And it seems the more I learn, the less I know!


You summed it up yourself.

Never get cocky and think you know it all. There is always something to be learned no matter how long you've been in the business.


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## trav007 (Jan 25, 2008)

Here's a rule that I learned very early on. It will make you an efficient, competent, and happy carpenter. This is the coveted 321 rule.

Plan, Plan, Plan
Measure, Measure
Cut


Unless your in a hurry...then just measure and cut....then run back to your saw because its 1 inch too short due to misreading the tape measure and cut a new piece....but now you forgot the measurement ( if you tried to go by memory ) or you forgot your note pad......so you remeasure and now your 1/8 too long because you don't want it to be too short again....now you cut a saw kerf off the end and it fits....and your tired.....and frustrated.....at least you had more wood right.


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## troubleseeker (Sep 24, 2006)

Never close your mind to anything someone is offerring as a "helpfull suggestion" for a task, no matter how dumb the guy offerring it may seem in your opinion or how outlandish the idea sounds at that particular moment, just put it in the back of your mind. I promise you that one day some version of it will save you a lot of grief on some task.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing I relentlessly tell young guys. "I never want to see you sharing your attention between operating a power tool and operating your mouth yacking with someone else." When my hand grabs a saw handle, I have only one point of concentration. If someone walks up and starts talking to me, they always get a "What were you saying" when I am finished with the tool.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

troubleseeker said:


> Never close your mind to anything someone is offerring as a "helpfull suggestion" for a task, no matter how dumb the guy offerring it may seem in your opinion or how outlandish the idea sounds at that particular moment, just put it in the back of your mind. I promise you that one day some version of it will save you a lot of grief on some task.
> 
> The MOST IMPORTANT thing I relentlessly tell young guys. "I never want to see you sharing your attention between operating a power tool and operating your mouth yacking with someone else." When my hand grabs a saw handle, I have only one point of concentration. If someone walks up and starts talking to me, they always get a "What were you saying" when I am finished with the tool.


 
Unless they are yelling "*shut the damn saw off the blades too deep and your cutting my saw horse's in half*"


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

A W Smith said:


> Unless they are yelling "*shut the damn saw off the blades too deep and your cutting my saw horse's in half*"



or "dont cut like that, your going to cut the cord." to which they will reply, "no i wont" then walk in five minutes later and tell you they owe you a cord.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

A W Smith said:


> Unless they are yelling "*shut the damn saw off the blades too deep and your cutting my saw horse's in half*"





chris klee said:


> or "dont cut like that, your going to cut the cord." to which they will reply, "no i wont" then walk in five minutes later and tell you they owe you a cord.


Both of which fall under.....



troubleseeker said:


> The MOST IMPORTANT thing I relentlessly tell young guys.... When my hand grabs a saw handle, I have only one point of concentration....


:thumbsup:


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Which brings up an interesting point.

What do you do with your circular saw cords while you cut?

I know some folks that just sorta flip them out of the way, but I, and some others, flip them behind, so they are being pulled behind the saw at all times.

I even have been known to flip the cord up over the shoulder of my cutting arm to keep in out of the way. Probably not the smartest thing I've ever done.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

When cutting my cord goes up my arm around my neck and down my left arm


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Over the shoulder...whatever it takes
to keep it out of the way, and not getting 
snagged in the kerf/on the end of the board.
Another reason I loves mah P-C --
they have a little clip up near the top of the
handle to pull the cord around so it hangs
over the motor when you want.
(This my partner just recently "discovered" 
after I pointed it out to him 10 years ago)


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

neolitic said:


> (This my partner just recently "discovered" after I pointed it out to him 10 years ago)


My wife never listens to you either.:blink::w00t:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Double-A said:


> My wife never listens to you either.:blink::w00t:


Ain't that the truth!:laughing:

Between my partner (61), 
and Mom (80) some days 
I'm pretty sure that when I speak
it comes out chinese! :blink:


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## orson (Nov 23, 2007)

One thing I didn't see yet, make sure you know the Pythagorean theorum, one of the most useful pieces of geometry in carpentry.

www.rubycon.us
Ruby Construction LLC 
Lancaster Kitchen Remodeling
Lancaster Bathroom Remodeling


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## TempestV (Feb 3, 2007)

A few other things that haven't been talked about yet in regards to helpers and apprentices:
A journeyman should be able to run a crew and keep a couple people busy and efficient
A journeyman should be able to train and coach helpers and apprentices up to their level (provided the helper is worth training)


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

A W Smith said:


> When cutting my cord goes up my arm around my neck and down my left arm


I only go around my neck when I'm working up high. Fall protection you know.:blink:


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

Also should know how to square up a layout using the 3/4/5 method, also known as the 6/8/10 or the 12/16/20 method



Double A depending on how high you are do you use six or eight coils?


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Thirteen. I don't want that sucker coming loose. Someone could get hurt.


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## bigdifficultme (Feb 28, 2006)

There will come a time when you will f--k up. Learn to take it like a man. No one is perfect. If you blame everyone else for your mistake you will learn nothing from it. Belive me, if you let everybody bust your nads for a few days or weeks you will never make that mistake again.


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

bigdifficultme said:


> There will come a time when you will f--k up. Learn to take it like a man. No one is perfect. If you blame everyone else for your mistake you will learn nothing from it. Belive me, if you let everybody bust your nads for a few days or weeks you will never make that mistake again.


Amen! If I may add to that....when you find a problem FIX it and move on. Don't waste everyone's time jawing about how you would have done better/different. 

also, IMO a journeyman should have patience, enjoy teaching, sharing tricks and watching the new guys grow into the trades. I suppose teaching time is a luxury for some, but that is something I enjoy.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

lodigirl07 said:


> theres no such thing i pulled that on a newb *in my class* and on one of my most reliable carpenter helpers dont fall 4 it pull joke on all newbies its very funny they spend all day lookin 4 it i have a newbie lookin fur 1 rite now 4 a board strecher


Would that be an english class perhaps?:blink:


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

Try to always stack frame. 

1. When you are shooting your plates to the subfloor shoot next to the studs so that you keep the nails out of the bay (plumbers and electricians hate to drill through nails. Or so I have seen...I think electricians are better at cussing out framers than plumbers.)

2. Provides for a positive anchoring path with all the metal straps and clips required now-a-daze:confused1:

3. Tends to make little things more predictable and self-truing.


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## lodigirl07 (Mar 7, 2008)

*wow*

thats so true electricians yell at carpenters more than plumbers for not stacking


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## parkway2328 (Jul 4, 2006)

remember kid : the only difference between a journeyman and an apprentise is the journeyman knows how to fix his mistakes. Keep your head down your mouth shut and keep nailing. Cheers.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

wallmaxx said:


> Try to always stack frame.
> 
> 1. When you are shooting your plates to the subfloor shoot next to the studs so that you keep the nails out of the bay (plumbers and electricians hate to drill through nails. Or so I have seen...I think electricians are better at cussing out framers than plumbers.)
> 
> ...


Question on nailing shoe plate:

I was just taught to shoot nails into the rim joists and one at the front of the stud in every bay (toe nailed towards the studs to keep them out of the way of the other trades) to make sure that there is an even distribution of holding strength (e.g. instead of both in the middle, both toward the front of the stud, both at the rear, etc...). 

Good advice? 

Alternative methods?


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

2ndGen said:


> Question on nailing shoe plate:
> 
> I was just taught to shoot nails into the rim joists and one at the front of the stud in every bay (toe nailed towards the studs to keep them out of the way of the other trades) to make sure that there is an even distribution of holding strength (e.g. instead of both in the middle, both toward the front of the stud, both at the rear, etc...).
> 
> ...



When I was framing the inspectors wanted 4-6" oc nailing into rim joist on exterior was.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

JustaFramer said:


> When I was framing the inspectors wanted 4-6" oc nailing into rim joist on exterior was.


Not that I'm anybody to question an inspector, but what type of tieing down is there for the wall side of the shoe plate? 
Is it left un-nailed?


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

JustaFramer said:


> When I was framing the inspectors wanted 4-6" oc nailing into rim joist on exterior was.


 
I would think nailing a shoe on four inch centers into the 1 1/2 inch edge of a band joist would weaken the connection by creating a splitting plane on both the band joist and the shoe.


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

GLUE

I started to glue my plates down. Ever since I was under my rent house trying to find the squeak in the floor system. It turned out to be a nail through the sill plate into the subfloor. When you stepped on that part of the floor, the subfloor deflected just enough to rub on the nail. I did a mike holmes and screwed up from the subfloor into the plate and fixed it.

In seismic areas I've done continuous metal clips and straps, every 48" from rafter to anchored sill plate.

It just depends.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

2ndGen said:


> Not that I'm anybody to question an inspector, but what type of tieing down is there for the wall side of the shoe plate?
> Is it left un-nailed?


When joists run perpendicular I throw in nails to joist by habit. When they run parallel the is nothing to nail to but plywood. That is a worthless nail.



A W Smith said:


> I would think nailing a shoe on four inch centers into the 1 1/2 inch edge of a band joist would weaken the connection by creating a splitting plane on both the band joist and the shoe.


Actually now that I think about it more I think it was 6-8" oc.


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