# Working Outside Your Niche?



## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I don't think anyone would pay me to work outside my niche. 

I suck at just about everything but Drywall! If you don't believe me.

Ask my Wife! :whistling The last time I Tried fixing the plumbing I crawled out from beneath the house to see Johnny standing there. She called the plumber while I was under the house!!! :laughing:


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

I'm new enough that everything is outside my niche.


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

Spencer said:


> I'm new enough that everything is outside my niche.


I'm old enough that everything is outside my niche. Realizing that was the first step to actual knowledge. If you realize that at a young age you're miles ahead of me. When I was in my twenties I knew everything about everything. Now I know that I know just enough about allot of things to be dangerous. Wished I had learned allot earlier to just shut up and learn.:banghead::banghead:


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

blacktop said:


> I don't think anyone would pay me to work outside my niche.
> 
> I suck at just about everything but Drywall! If you don't believe me.
> 
> Ask my Wife! :whistling The last time I Tried fixing the plumbing I crawled out from beneath the house to see Johnny standing there. She called the plumber while I was under the house!!! :laughing:


Which brings to mind the misquote: "A man has got to know his limitations".

The actual saying: "A woman has got to know her man's limitations".


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I usually do a remodeling project once a year. It needs to pay at least as much as I can make building decks.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

When I started years ago, about all I knew was flooring ,shoemold and cutting doors.

A customer asked me to install a nice storm door....it went perfectly, right til I tried to close it, and its' handle hit the entry door handle. Ugh. 

The problem with getting outside your comfort zone is you don't know what you need to be watching out for.

Today, I'm a licensed homebuilder, which means I can pull a permit and do residential remodeling or build a home....so I have branched out over the years , at the same time , I have my boundaries. 

Somethings I can't do, somethings I don't want to do, and some things , I don't even want to know how to do. 

At the same time , I 've always enjoyed trying new things and pushing my limitations ....I think we can all grow and expand our horizons that way.

Business wise, I draw the line at work we don't perform well.

We do baths really well, build cabinets well and do nice finish carpentry. We are good with additions, porches and kitchens .

We suck at things like 2nd story additions, large manpower framing jobs and scraping popcorn ceilings in an occupied home (or maybe that sucks). 

Sometimes , doing something "out there" a bit is fun, but I always remember: the problem with being a pioneer is you might end up with arrows in your back.


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

Spencer said:


> I'm new enough that everything is outside my niche.


Ditto. 

Every week seems to be something new and terrifying.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

All the time. That is one problem with being self taught for the most part. I can usually figure it out. Whether I make any money at it is another thing.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Californiadecks post made me think of something you new guys may want to consider:

You can do whatever you want out here and be whatever you want to be, but as far as building a reputation , making nice money and becoming accomplished , if you ll figure out what work you execute well, that's where your best money may ever be . 

It doesn't matter if it's commercial, residential , high end or low end, builder or whatever ....jobs you turn well will give you revenue and profit , satisfaction, and a loyal clientele. 

All the money in the world on a job means nothing if you can't finish and collect.

Is getting outside your niche bad ? Not ever developing one would concern me more.


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## krist (Dec 2, 2011)

For me, the economy determines my niche.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

A lot of niche knowledge or technique can be transferable from one to another and can be used as base knowledge you expand on...

There's a first time for everything and as I tell my kids, you'll never know until you try...

SOP and best practices come from trying new things... someone has to be first...


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

We have from time to time, there is also a limit to what we will do getting outside of your normal can easily turn in to a loss. Right now I'm bidding two dome roofs for the state, they cover their road salt. One is a geodesic and the other is hemispherical. Not exactly our normal low slope roofing. Real easy to lose your pants on these if you don't know what your doing.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Is it neech or nitch. I vote for the latter.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

VinylHanger said:


> Is it neech or nitch. I vote for the latter.


Look at the title of the thread... :whistling

I don't think either of those words exist... but maybe we can start our own CT dictionary... :thumbsup:


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

KAP said:


> Look at the title of the thread... :whistling
> 
> I don't think either of those words exist... but maybe we can start our own CT dictionary...


I think he was asking how everyone pronounces it...


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

VinylHanger said:


> Is it neech or nitch. I vote for the latter.


Nitch.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

overanalyze said:


> I think he was asking how everyone pronounces it...


LOL... oops... Sorry VynilHanger... my bad...

And thanks Overanalyze for catching and pointing out my over-ANALization of it... :thumbsup: :laughing:

See what happens when you step outside of your niche?... :whistling

Still think we could use a CT dictionary... :clap:


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

"nee-sh"


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## TEnglish14 (Jul 15, 2014)

I'm new enough to know I don't know everything and most is outside my niche. But I'm confident enough to know when I feel I will be able to do something or learn quickly and smart enough to know when to call a trusty resource when I need one. 

For instance taping drywall, I have done 5 jobs, 3 were at the same customers house, 1 was my Dads basement being taught, 1 was my Mom basement being taught. I was confident I would pick it up quick and I did, am I the best? No, but I take my time and it comes out good.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Now that you've worked outside your niche and screwed up. Tell us about it here :laughing:

http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/sooo-youve-worked-outside-your-niche-you-screwed-up-232129/


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## platinumLLC (Nov 18, 2008)

tipitop said:


> Why would someone who frame new houses lower itself and compete with illegal and do siding and (or roofing). Of course that I know do siding and roofing, just is not worth my time. Will someone pay me to last two for 35$/hour? I do not think so. Would I hire someone without health insurance work for 7$/hour. Not either. Siding mean that poles, that I will not buy. I have sea of framing stairs, roofs, trim crown and hand railing in front of me.


I usually don't make comments like these but for someone putting down Latinos you sure make your English hard to read.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

platinumLLC said:


> I usually don't make comments like these but for someone putting down Latinos you sure make your English hard to read.


I reread his quote and can't find him "putting down Latinos" anywhere.


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

I'm pretty sure warrens siding jobs would put many of us here to shame. 

Those railings look like something built by some guy on Craigslist 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

tipitop said:


> Why would someone who frame new houses lower itself and compete with illegal and do siding and (or roofing). Of course that I know do siding and roofing, just is not worth my time. Will someone pay me to last two for 35$/hour? I do not think so. Would I hire someone without health insurance work for 7$/hour. Not either. Siding mean that poles, that I will not buy. I have sea of framing stairs, roofs, trim crown and hand railing in front of me.


I don't think we have ever charged anywhere close to $35 an hour roofing, I have employee's who make fairly close to that...



tipitop said:


> "That railing" is designed by architects of "St Paul historic district preservation society". I guess you are open for be sued for offending architects. I'm to lazy to email them. So better watch what you are saying. Nothing in that photo is designed by me. this is my standard railing. Btw that railing is from Ipe and probably lumber for it cost more then yours truck.


Sue him for what? There is lots of architects who design crappy looking projects, ask any contractor. Let alone the fact they can't figure out how things actually go to together out in the field.

How are you working on projects at $35 an hour and there is an architect involved? Anything that has a architect involved get's the automatic PITA up charge. So does that make it like $35.99 for you?


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## platinumLLC (Nov 18, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> I reread his quote and can't find him "putting down Latinos" anywhere.





tipitop said:


> Meh I know only that no one will pay me much for siding and roofing with so many Latinos around. If that worth anyting this is my siding.


I guess not really putting down but saying he can't make money siding because of all the Latinos around. Just thought it was funny how he was saying he couldn't make money with so many Latinos around when I can barely make sense of his posts.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

aaron_a said:


> I'm pretty sure warrens siding jobs would put many of us here to shame.
> 
> Those railings look like something built by some guy on Craigslist
> 
> ...


Nop. That railing in both pictures are excellent as in both case neighbor come by and admire and talk with me. Btw once again I finish entire calculus with grade A. You want say I can not do railing. Man. I’m top notch carpenter and you can not do nothing about it.
I know barking including myself is huge part of this business. We all bark we are best. But I have huge portfolio and can bark the best. Other day someone post how my framing is bad and hence I work for 35$/hour. Hey I framed complete roof at a house 7M worth. Btw customers believe from some reason me not you. Most customers hold me for sort of superman that can do just about everything. 
Watch my add here http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/sks/5290242302.html
It talk supremacy all over. I call companies at high end project to give me something and “if wrong you do not pay nothing and I pay lumber”. Sorry guys I’m so them good. I go routinely in high end companies and do better crown then theirs specialist for crown, better roof framing then theirs specialist for framing etc. Like matter of fact anyone here can give me whatsoever job and if is not good you do not pay nothing and I pay lumber.
You guys manage to put me down before Internet when it was my word against other. Now that guys who was “better” then me back in 90ties drive long distance trucks.


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

tipitop said:


> Nop. That railing in both pictures are excellent as in both case neighbor come by and admire and talk with me. Btw once again I finish entire calculus with grade A. You want say I can not do railing. Man. I’m top notch carpenter and you can not do nothing about it.



They look fine, I've seen better, and I've seen worse. 

You could have at least installed the posts in a code compliant way and hidden the end grain on the treads though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Never. I do what I do and we're good at it so we just stick with it. I don't want to be distracted by all kinds of stuff all the time so we specialize and stick with it.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

I had so far along way at last 30 calls or emails from home builders and some are national (from top of head Leman brothers). They say like “you guys do fantastic job” would you come to bid (usually) framing and sometime trim. Only thing is that I do it all alone, there are not any “guys”.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

tipitop said:


> Only thing is that I do it all alone, there are not any “guys”.


Just hire Latinos, you can just yell and point or use sign language.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

tipitop said:


> Now that guys who was “better” then me back in 90ties drive long distance trucks.


And they are making more than $35/hour.....


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

aaron_a said:


> They look fine, I've seen better, and I've seen worse.
> 
> You could have at least installed the posts in a code compliant way and hidden the end grain on the treads though.


There's code compliant way - and there's The Way of The Tipi.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

There are only two ways to make money in this miserable industry.

1. Sell the same sh!t to more people.

2. Sell more sh!t to the same people.

I'm always looking to expand.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Inner10 said:


> There are only two ways to make money in this miserable industry.
> 
> 1. Sell the same sh!t to more people.
> 
> ...


Construction buy its nature is people and labor oriented not scientific. Hence is better be capable dill with people then no matter what strength in trade you have. It is better have a roofing company and employee a couple guys then be expert carpenter, or tile setter and sell yours skills. I know guy who have roofing company and clear over 100K every year easy.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tipitop said:


> Construction buy its nature is people and labor oriented not scientific. Hence is better be capable dill with people then no matter what strength in trade you have. It is better have a roofing company and employee a couple guys then be expert carpenter, or tile setter and sell yours skills. I know guy who have roofing company and clear over 100K every year easy.


Ever heard of building science? That's exactly what it is, a science. Then there is the craft. That is where you take the science and add the art.

I know tile contractors who make well over 100k a year and nowhere near the overhead and worries that a roofer has. Work inside in any weather (most of the time), liability insurance pennies to the dollar compared to a roofer, no state license that I am aware of (maybe local), no safety gear to really speak of...the list is endless. Just goes to show that you know very little about this business.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

100k is not a huge benchmark for any of the trades. Not even a painter! Lol


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

Tipi, I don't get you.

You seem to only want to come here to tell everyone how great you are. But clearly, there are guys on this site who can build circles around you. I'm not saying you're a total hack (though I've seen some code violations in your work), but you are nowhere near the top of the food chain here. I could be wrong, but didn't you start a thread a while back asking "What size header do I use for window opening?" That's not a question that a "top notch" carpenter asks to a bunch of strangers on the internet.

Bottom line is this. There are guys here that do better work than you, and who are making much more money then you. You could be learning from them and improving in both areas yourself, but you seem more interested in puffing your chest out, impressing nobody, and feeding your own ego.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

thehockeydman said:


> but you seem more interested in puffing your chest out, impressing nobody, and feeding your own ego.


IOW, just yer average contractor.:whistling

Tipi is here to show us that you CAN put a $10 dress on a $5 whoor and charge $35/hr for it.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> 100k is not a huge benchmark for any of the trades. Not even a painter! Lol


I'd say 100K profit is very difficult to achieve without capitalizing on the labour of other employees. You know a one man show that clears 100K?


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

tipitop said:


> Construction buy its nature is people and labor oriented not scientific. Hence is better be capable dill with people then no matter what strength in trade you have. It is better have a roofing company and employee a couple guys then be expert carpenter, or tile setter and sell yours skills. I know guy who have roofing company and clear over 100K every year easy.


You seem to have no real grasp on running a business.... I would love for you to pay our insurance bill for one installment. You would crap your self. It is getting to the point where the insurance company will not allow you to break down the trades for us anymore, we use to be able to separate shop work, or sheetmetal work, but they are slowly but surely stopping that. 

Let alone pay for the building we have to store the materials we need so the guys aren't wasting hours of the day buying material from the supply house at a higher mark up. 

Shall we get in to the amount of money we have spent on safety equipment? I'm not talking about $100 harness in a bucket junk, 200' of guardrail system 10K, don't think your going to get away with just one. Mobile tie off cart 5K, cones and flag line another few thousand. One of the big costs is the on going safety training. It's about $600 dollars a week in employee wages to do safety meetings for 10 guys. That's $31,200 a year, just for a 1/2-1 hour quick meeting on the tailgate once a week, not including the monthly meetings that go a bit longer. Also not including my time putting together specific job site safety plans.

I haven't even started on the equipment and maintenance of stuff yet. You may as well double your yearly safety budget. 

Granted we do commercial so it's going to be a bit more expensive but even shingler will have large overhead. 

But yes it's so much better then a tile setter who has very little in insurance, even less in safety equipment. I'd guess maybe tools may be the biggest cost but that wouldn't generally be a yearly cost. They don't really need a build/shop to work out of. 

It's way easier being in just about any trade to clear 100K a year then roofing.



TNTSERVICES said:


> Ever heard of building science? That's exactly what it is, a science. Then there is the craft. That is where you take the science and add the art.
> 
> I know tile contractors who make well over 100k a year and nowhere near the overhead and worries that a roofer has. Work inside in any weather (most of the time), liability insurance pennies to the dollar compared to a roofer, no state license that I am aware of (maybe local), no safety gear to really speak of...the list is endless. Just goes to show that you know very little about this business.


100% truth to this. After the quick break down I did above it really got me thinking of a carer change! :laughing:



Californiadecks said:


> 100k is not a huge benchmark for any of the trades. Not even a painter! Lol


100k isn't worth the headache to be a business owner IMO.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> I'd say 100K profit is very difficult to achieve without capitalizing on the labour of other employees. You know a one man show that clears 100K?


Is that what was said? Nope. Tipi said roofing company clearing 100k and Cali said trades. I missed the part about it being only an individual and not utilizing employees to achieve it.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> I'd say 100K profit is very difficult to achieve without capitalizing on the labour of other employees. You know a one man show that clears 100K?


A service plumber here does. But he even has a helper.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> A service plumber here does. But he even has a helper.


Absolutely plumber can do 100K and I think some electricians. Painter? Alone painter never ever no way. Period. Inner said it much better. Btw I talk about market prices. If you do some insurance repair work of course you can clear 1M like painter if you fill right pockets with money.


1985gt said:


> You seem to have no real grasp on running a business....


I know that running business is at completely different scale of difficulty then be a good tradesman.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

tipitop said:


> Absolutely plumber can do 100K and I think some electricians. Painter? Alone painter never ever no way. Period. Inner said it much better. Btw I talk about market prices. If you do some insurance repair work of course you can clear 1M like painter if you fill right pockets with money.
> 
> 
> I know that running business is at completely different scale of difficulty then be a good tradesman.




20,000 a week as a solo painter. Sign me up tipi. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Is that what was said? Nope. Tipi said roofing company clearing 100k and Cali said trades. I missed the part about it being only an individual and not utilizing employees to achieve it.


Guess I missed the part about running a business vs being a tradesman.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> I'd say 100K profit is very difficult to achieve without capitalizing on the labour of other employees. You know a one man show that clears 100K?


100k net profit after a decent salary would is probably pretty abnormal for a one man show. Down here 100k total take home for trades is probably rare. 

I know lots of GCs who would cry if they made 100k, and dont employ and never will employ employees, although they use subs. 

I knew an commercial HVAC service guy in Austin who is retired, he did 3 or 4 service calls 4 days a week, he told me he would quit whenever he couldnt work 35 hrs a week and make 2k a week minimum. He was like 70, worked out of his house and had one paid for van and no hands. Sweet gig. A lot of knowledge. 

One of the GCs i refer work to is a one man band builder/remodeler who does almost everything himself and id be surprised if he didnt make around 2k a week, maybe a lot more, but who knows. His overhead is very low though, and he charges around the same as i do for cost plus percentage and hourly labor. 

For the most part, I agree, certainly if you mean true net, but i bet there is plenty who would surprise me, even if 100k true net seems pretry far fetched. 

I know a multimillionaire who made most of his money rebuilding diesel engines for the oil field.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

We do a lot of different things, anything we feel like taking on in residential or light commercial construction, and i think we are pretty good at all of them, we are all WOM and have always stayed busy, so i guess others must think so too. So no real niche, we perform tasks according to strengths and sub specialty stuff. Whole house remodels and additions make up most of our revenue so I guess thats what we do most. 

Historically we are also profitable at what we choose to take on.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

100k as a benchmark is irrelevant. Just like everything in this business that is area specific. In my area 100k net to the owner would be a great salary...for Mike in California not so much...or New York City.


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

tipitop said:


> Absolutely plumber can do 100K and I think some electricians. Painter? Alone painter never ever no way. Period. Inner said it much better. Btw I talk about market prices. If you do some insurance repair work of course you can clear 1M like painter if you fill right pockets with money.
> 
> 
> I know that running business is at completely different scale of difficulty then be a good tradesman.



Insurance repair is a completely different ballgame. 

It doesn't matter if you are just your self or you have 1,000 employee's. It's still a business and should be treated as such. There is business money and personal money and the two IMO should never ever be combined.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> I'd say 100K profit is very difficult to achieve without capitalizing on the labour of other employees. You know a one man show that clears 100K?


 Plenty--- in fact I can't even believe this is a serious statement.
Stephen


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Stephen H said:


> Plenty--- in fact I can't even believe this is a serious statement.
> Stephen


So who? How much do they make, what do they do?


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

overanalyze said:


> 100k as a benchmark is irrelevant. Just like everything in this business that is area specific. In my area 100k net to the owner would be a great salary...for Mike in California not so much...or New York City.


 I can not believe things can be so different where you are.
If so--- you should move a few counties east where we are.

thinking of plumbers, electricians, painting and wall papering guys, many roofers, replacement window and door guys.

some solo operations , some small companies
that 100K figure is just not that difficult.
No offense to anybody in this thread--- but the people I know have an area of specialization---and they market to a certain extent---- they aren't waiting by the phone and talking about how great WOM is......
I just can't believe 100k is a serious challenge for anybody on this forum.....
Stephen Hazlett


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> So who? How much do they make, what do they do?


 Inner,
when I was still in asphalt shingles I could do 1 to 2 K in a DAY solo on re-roofs and small rubber roofs , garage roofs, porches etc.

And I am just a dumb roofer
so how is 100K a challenge for you guys with actual talent ????

I don't believe that it is.
Stephen


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Stephen H said:


> I can not believe things can be so different where you are.
> If so--- you should move a few counties east where we are.
> 
> thinking of plumbers, electricians, painting and wall papering guys, many roofers, replacement window and door guys.
> ...


While i agree on some of your points, WOM is great for some people. I dont advertise other than the Parade where i can showcase my work, I have never and will never sit by the phone. Millions of dollars in sales annually through WOM. I want all of my prospects to of seen my work and know who we are and how we do business before we ever shake hands. I don't want to waste their time or mine. :no:

Maybe for little 5k jobs its not feasible, for what i do it is. I can see needing to up volume for service work. 

I highly doubt someone hires a GC for a 300- 750k custom project HERE from a damn postcard :no: 

But as always, im sure you know whats best for every business, in every municiplaity, in every country in the world. :thumbsup:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Stephen H said:


> Inner,
> when I was still in asphalt shingles I could do 1 to 2 K in a DAY solo on re-roofs and small rubber roofs , garage roofs, porches etc.
> 
> And I am just a dumb roofer
> ...


I'd be hard pressed to do that. I don't work solo but if I did I doubt I'd gross over 200k, after expenses and material I'd probably take home 80 net.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

overanalyze said:


> 100k as a benchmark is irrelevant. Just like everything in this business that is area specific. In my area 100k net to the owner would be a great salary...for Mike in California not so much...or New York City.


100k after expenses and all liabilities are met for a one man show in the building trades. Sure it's doable. $50/hr 5 days a week 2000hrs per year + costs. :laughing: Not always so easy tho.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Jaws said:


> But as always, im sure you know whats best for every business, in every municiplaity, in every country in the world. :thumbsup:



Always easy for someone, like Stephen, who has a Gravy high end specialty niche' and clientele that very few of home owners or handyman can or choose to perform. 

He's earned it, worked hard for it, I admire that. I'd say he's just extra proud of it. It's cool by me, just weary of how well all things work in his world. How that should directly relate to mine and my market.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Jaws said:


> I highly doubt someone hires a GC for a 300- 750k custom project HERE from a damn postcard :no:


Exactly. And if they don't have any friends, family, or associates of whom to ask referrals they probably aren't worth working for anyway.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

tipitop said:


> "That railing" is designed by architects of "St Paul historic district preservation society". I guess you are open for be sued for offending architects. I'm to lazy to email them. So better watch what you are saying. Nothing in that photo is designed by me. this is my standard railing. Btw that railing is from Ipe and probably lumber for it cost more then yours truck.


I know you think you're the best ever and "everyone" tells you how much better you are than the "experts," but have you ever checked out the deck forum here to see how your decks and railings stack up?

I mean, I'm no tipitop, but I build a few decks here and there:


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Stephen H said:


> I can not believe things can be so different where you are.
> If so--- you should move a few counties east where we are.
> 
> thinking of plumbers, electricians, painting and wall papering guys, many roofers, replacement window and door guys.
> ...


I do appreciate your input and love that you have grown your business to create a great living for all your guys. I can tell you appreciate them and have a great thing going. 

That said this post was maybe a little narrow minded...100k net is a big amount to a lot of guys on here....me included. I am happy with what I make but it isn't 100k. I am charging on the top end of my area. A lot of guys in my area making way less so I feel fortunate that I have the skills and sales ability to get what I do. I do not specialize. We are a general/builder/remodeler. Maybe that is why I don't clear 100k...we are to diverse.

I also don't wait by the phone. All our work is WOM. I work as much as I want to. Billable hours are approximately 35-40 a week per man. I work about 50-55 hours per week. I don't know if 100k net is a challenge, but for my business I don't forsee it. Now if you add up the other "perks" we get than maybe I am closer...


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Stephen H said:


> I can not believe things can be so different where you are.
> If so--- you should move a few counties east where we are.
> 
> thinking of plumbers, electricians, painting and wall papering guys, many roofers, replacement window and door guys.
> ...


You left out drywallers ! :sad:


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

overanalyze said:


> I do appreciate your input and love that you have grown your business to create a great living for all your guys. I can tell you appreciate them and have a great thing going.
> 
> That said this post was maybe a little narrow minded...100k net is a big amount to a lot of guys on here....me included. I am happy with what I make but it isn't 100k. I am charging on the top end of my area. A lot of guys in my area making way less so I feel fortunate that I have the skills and sales ability to get what I do. I do not specialize. We are a general/builder/remodeler. Maybe that is why I don't clear 100k...we are to diverse.
> 
> I also don't wait by the phone. All our work is WOM. I work as much as I want to. Billable hours are approximately 35-40 a week per man. I work about 50-55 hours per week. I don't know if 100k net is a challenge, but for my business I don't forsee it. Now if you add up the other "perks" we get than maybe I am closer...


 Overanylyze,
while we are in a specialty NOW--- it wasn't always so.
You know about where We live---- it's a rustbelt city surrounded by other rustbelt cities........
I don't think I am anything special--- in fact I pointed out in my second post I am just a dumb roofer didn't I ?
seriously---dumb as a box of rocks---stupid as a bag of hammers---a 15 watt bulb.....
so--- here is what I truly don't understand

that figure we are discussing?????------- solo, a guy can do that here re-roofing houses, re-roofing garage roofs, fixing porch roofs, putting on small rubber roofs etc.
It's the very definitition of "commodity work" isn't it ?
doing work like that---- a guy isn't really capitalizing on some specialized niche work is he ?-- there is no secret ,hidden knowledge is there ????
and for 20 plus years we didn't really market doing that work either........

so---- if that 100k figure isn't a barrier for that type of work

how can it be a barrier for the type of work most of you guys do ?
I readily and enthusiastically admidt what many of you do requires Waaaaay more skill and talent than what we have....
so why doesn't it pay better ?

It's been a handfull of years since I last did a garage roof solo---- but at that time I was getting around $1800-2100 or so for a 2 car garage. I would arrive at 8:00 AM, tear off the old 2 layer roof, repair the decking, titanium UDL underlayment, drip edge, 30 year dimensional shingles.--- tear-off thrown down in the yard on tarps and around 10:30 mike the dump guy would arrive and clean it all up for $8-10/ sq.
I would be gone by early/mid afternoon with plenty of time to give a couple quotes or go to the lumberyard on the way home.

that's clearly simple work---all but mindless isn't it ?--- requires in-expensive tools and an inexpensive artisans policy.
so why doesn't more skilled, more talented work pay better than THAT ?
this is what I can't wrap my head around--- I would think the work I just described---- would be kind of the baseline , right ?
so--- if someone with more skill, more talent, more brains---earns less for their efforts--- it's gotta be by CHOICE, right?--- because they could always do what I just described right?--- it aint rocket science...
so if it's their CHOICE--- why be angry about it ????

Hey , BTW--- taking my new pair of hoka bondis out for a spin this morning. 
last pair were fine untill a couple days ago when the outersoles just shredded. I think I got about 700 miles out of them. waiting till daylight to put 5 miles of mud on them!

Best wishes,
stephen


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Stephen H said:


> that's clearly simple work---all but mindless isn't it ?--- requires in-expensive tools and an inexpensive artisans policy.
> so why doesn't more skilled, more talented work pay better than THAT ?
> this is what I can't wrap my head around--- I would think the work I just described---- would be kind of the baseline , right ?
> so--- if someone with more skill, more talent, more brains---earns less for their efforts--- it's gotta be by CHOICE, right?--- because they could always do what I just described right?--- it aint rocket science...
> so if it's their CHOICE--- why be angry about it ????


100 time more people are willing to do trim then roofing. True trim need much more talent but what if guy without talent show up? He will do job poorly but collect money again and more important suppress price for me and others. Painters are in similar situation. If some hack show up to fix 10K volts problem in some manufacturing he risk his life so there is not hacks suppressing price in electric field. I do believe that some framers collect some serious money in building brand new houses but remodeling, lake framing basement not so much. Plus roofing is often covered by insurance.
Why is actually so much more people doing trim or painting? Because with such job you can have a normal life. With framing and even far more roofing you live a life of rebel or Harley biker, danger, painful and all other bs. Here in Mpls is price of roofers suppressed jet with arrival of Latinos.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

tipitop said:


> 100 time more people are willing to do trim then roofing. True trim need much more talent but what if guy without talent show up? He will do job poorly but collect money again and more important suppress price for me and others. Painters are in similar situation. If some hack show up to fix 10K volts problem in some manufacturing he risk his life so there is not hacks suppressing price in electric field. I do believe that some framers collect some serious money in building brand new houses but remodeling, lake framing basement not so much. Plus roofing is often covered by insurance.
> Why is actually so much more people doing trim or painting? Because with such job you can have a normal life. With framing and even far more roofing you live a life of rebel or Harley biker, danger, painful and all other bs. Here in Mpls is price of roofers suppressed jet with arrival of Latinos.


Wow!! What a narrow minded view.


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

tipitop said:


> 100 time more people are willing to do trim then roofing. True trim need much more talent but what if guy without talent show up? He will do job poorly but collect money again and more important suppress price for me and others. Painters are in similar situation. If some hack show up to fix 10K volts problem in some manufacturing he risk his life so there is not hacks suppressing price in electric field.


:laughing: There is a lot more roofers then there is trim carpenters. I couldn't even start to count the amount of shinglers in my area. 

There is also plenty of hacks in the electrician field, ask any electrician... 




tipitop said:


> Why is actually so much more people doing trim or painting? Because with such job you can have a normal life. With framing and even far more roofing you live a life of rebel or Harley biker, danger, painful and all other bs. Here in Mpls is price of roofers suppressed jet with arrival of Latinos.


Golly gee, I sure hope I don't develop a drug problems when I'm out cruising around on my Harley, everyone better lock up the women and children folk. I wonder what my wife and 2 kids think about this dangerous life style I live. Must be ok with it since it's my only time every being married and she has put up with me for the last 13 years. 

I wonder if the world will come to an end when we hire and befriend all the Latinos! Oh wait....


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Stephen H said:


> Overanylyze,
> while we are in a specialty NOW--- it wasn't always so.
> You know about where We live---- it's a rustbelt city surrounded by other rustbelt cities........
> I don't think I am anything special--- in fact I pointed out in my second post I am just a dumb roofer didn't I ?
> ...


It's all good Stephen. Maybe subconsciously I don't want the 100k. I am not whining nor unhappy. I pay all my bills and have some left. I don't live extravagantly but have nice things. 

The math for the billable hours and our markup just doesn't add up once you take out expenses. Maybe I am missing something...I don't know. 

That is cool you're still running! I am too..ran a half marathon in September and then a 10k the next week. Both races I blew away my previous time. Average about 12-15 miles a week right now. I run in Nikes. Tried others and these work for me. I do use a custom insole.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

There are a lot of different ways to look at doing $100k. First we have to be on the same page and define it. 

To me net profit is what is left after EVERYTHING (overhead) is taken out INCLUDING owners salary.

If a one man show is doing a true $100k true net profit he is doing something incredible. 

$100k gross profit is a completely different story. (Total Revenue minus COGS = Gross Profit) In that case I agree, should be easy to accomplish.

It also completely depends on the growth stage of the business. If an established business stops all growth and holds onto every penny of the gross profit it is much easier to make the business sound impressive. But a business that is growing hard and fast is not going to show much of any net profit on the P&L because its all getting eaten up in growth expenses and equipment.

There are a lot of business owners who take a right turn on the road to nowhere in order to secure higher net profits but that isn't always the best choice.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I have a feeling most guys, not specifically here on this forum, but everywhere, would be ecstatic to earn 100k net a year. Almost 2k a week take home for yourself after all expenses, every single week, all while paying all the insurances, putting money into retirement, taxes, etc is great for anyone for nearly any part of the country.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I have a feeling most guys, not specifically here on this forum, but everywhere, would be ecstatic to earn 100k net a year. Almost 2k a week take home for yourself after all expenses, every single week, all while paying all the insurances, putting money into retirement, taxes, etc is great for anyone for nearly any part of the country.


"Making" $100k is before tax and retirement.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

I do it at least once or twice a month. It keeps me sharp and up to date with the new materials and techniques that are out there in the other trades. I also like to show-up the real tradesmen who think that they know everything. 

For instance, I know a millwork guy who is especially good at cutting inside angles for molding and trim. It took him a few years to perfect this because he never knew anything about back-mitering. So one day when he came to my house, he wanted to know how I was able to get my joints so tight without the caulk shrinking. I told him that I don't use any caulk. Then he wanted to know what kind of saw I used because he couldn't find any of my butt-joints and was amazed at how everything was so smooth and consistent. 

The only downside to my flawless work is that it takes me more than an hour to do what this guy can do in 15 minutes.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

EricBrancard said:


> "Making" $100k is before tax and retirement.


That's still a good living, at least in my area. 

Then again I know there are crazy living prices in other parts of the country. The wife and I were watching some real estate show. These people spent 2 million on a house the same size as ours but with only like 1/5 acre when I'm on slighlty over one acre. We spent 10 times less for ours.

I get the opportunity to meet a lot of contractors and let me tell you, most would give an arm and a leg for 100k


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I have a feeling most guys, not specifically here on this forum, but everywhere, would be ecstatic to earn 100k net a year. Almost 2k a week take home for yourself after all expenses, every single week, all while paying all the insurances, putting money into retirement, taxes, etc is great for anyone for nearly any part of the country.


In this business it really comes down to how bad you want it and how hard you're willing to work for it. Its a lot easier to achieve those big profits if you're willing to put in the hours.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Spencer said:


> In this business it really comes down to how bad you want it and how hard you're willing to work for it. Its a lot easier to achieve those big profits if you're willing to put in the hours.


While this is certainly true, I refuse to put in more hours. Forty a week is enough for me. Saturdays and Sundays are for sanity. I know I could work more and make more, but I am content with what I earn at this point in my life. If anything, I may decide to work a little less, and earn less. I am sure it is different for guys who are younger and just starting out. I was there once too, and all of that hard work enables me to back off a little now.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

warren said:


> while this is certainly true, i refuse to put in more hours. Forty a week is enough for me. Saturdays and sundays are for sanity. I know i could work more and make more, but i am content with what i earn at this point in my life. If anything, i may decide to work a little less, and earn less. I am sure it is different for guys who are younger and just starting out. I was there once too, and all of that hard work enables me to back off a little now.



*bingo we have a winner....:thumbsup:*


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Warren said:


> and all of that hard work enables me to back off a little now.


That's why I work hard now. I know the day is coming when I will wake up and decide I don't want to put in the hours. Hopefully by then the hard work will have paid off and established a solid business that creates more income with less effort. Until then...make hay while the sun's shinin. :thumbup: Plus its just fun seeing goals be met and a business grow.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

tedanderson said:


> I do it at least once or twice a month. It keeps me sharp and up to date with the new materials and techniques that are out there in the other trades. I also like to show-up the real tradesmen who think that they know everything.
> 
> For instance, I know a millwork guy who is especially good at cutting inside angles for molding and trim. It took him a few years to perfect this because he never knew anything about back-mitering. So one day when he came to my house, he wanted to know how I was able to get my joints so tight without the caulk shrinking. I told him that I don't use any caulk. Then he wanted to know what kind of saw I used because he couldn't find any of my butt-joints and was amazed at how everything was so smooth and consistent.
> 
> The only downside to my flawless work is that it takes me more than an hour to do what this guy can do in 15 minutes.


You could solve all that by coping.


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## Framer87 (Dec 27, 2014)

Spencer said:


> That's why I work hard now. I know the day is coming when I will wake up and decide I don't want to put in the hours. Hopefully by then the hard work will have paid off and established a solid business that creates more income with less effort. Until then...make hay while the sun's shinin. :thumbup: Plus its just fun seeing goals be met and a business grow.


Ain't that true, how young are you anyways? I'm 28 and feel that I have to give it 150% for a few more years so till then we'll stay within the framing niche.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Framer87 said:


> Ain't that true, how young are you anyways? I'm 28 and feel that I have to give it 150% for a few more years so till then we'll stay within the framing niche.



About the same. I'm 27.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Spencer said:


> There are a lot of different ways to look at doing $100k. First we have to be on the same page and define it.
> 
> To me net profit is what is left after EVERYTHING (overhead) is taken out INCLUDING owners salary.
> 
> ...


My analogy was taking home 100k after all expenses. Not taking personal wages into account. I think that would be pretty impressive for most tradesmen.

Unless your installing shingles apparently those guys make 1500 a day.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

People who are employed also have to pay taxes, retirement and a portion of insurance. To do a real comparison you can't subtract all these expenses from your side and have an apples to apples comparison of what it is to make $100k/year. Otherwise we may as well just start saying that every employee that makes $100k a year just makes $50k/year.


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