# Nailing cement board down?



## SES Constructio (Mar 1, 2008)

I have a sub doing a kitchen floor in a house i'm doing and he told me he was going to use 1 1/2 roofing nails to nail the cement board down instead of the normal cement board screws. Is this acceptable or will it eventually lead to the nails loosining up and the cement board moving and the tiles cracking? Thanks for any help with this so the home owner doesn't have problems in the future.


----------



## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

According to cement board manuf. instructions, roofing nails can be used. I screw them down. Is he putting thinset under the boards?


----------



## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

All of those products come with instructions. To protect yourself why not do your homework so you know what it is all the subs you hire are supposed to be doing.

Are they using thinset under the boards? That would be the big mistake if they weren't. The nails are fine.


----------



## SES Constructio (Mar 1, 2008)

Thanks guys. I try to do as much homework as possible, that's why i asked on here for some direction.


----------



## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Instructions are all well and good, but sometimes so is real world experience. I read every book, article, and post I can, then I come here and ask. The help you get from here is usually better than anything you can read in some book.


----------



## finehomes (Feb 4, 2007)

I've been doing it that way for years. Scrape the floors, put down liquid nails, lay down the hardi backer, then nail the piss out of it with a roofing nailer. Hell of a lot faster than screws and I have never had a call back....ever. I'm just a general that does tile occassionally on my own jobs and have had a few tile guys see me do it this way that are now converted!!!! 


Sam


----------



## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Liquid nails is the last thing i would use to attach the hardi, it should be thinset. 
When you nail do you follow the manufactures schedule, or just naile 300 nails into and say that looks good?
How many years have the floors been down?


----------



## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> I've been doing it that way for years. Scrape the floors, put down liquid nails, lay down the hardi backer, then nail the piss out of it with a roofing nailer.


*THAT PROCEDURE* is 100% against what the entire industry recommends for installing tile backer boards. I can promise you that if you ever end up in a courtroom over a floor tile failure your ass is gone. Do what you want, rules are made to be broken I suppose. But I'll never understand why it is guys like you don't understand.:no::sad::no:


----------



## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

He must watch alot of American Builder, they are always doing things wrong over there...


----------



## finehomes (Feb 4, 2007)

Thanks for the reassurance BUD!!!! I've only laid 1000's of feet of tile this way and NEVER had a call back....in ten years. Most of the floors have been travertine...only about the most brittle floor you could put down and have fail. You guys keep doing it the old fashioned way if you like....I'll do it my way for the same price and make lots more money!!!!!


----------



## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Do it any way you like.

I just want to be sure that everyone reading these forums understands that *ALL* the backboard manufacturers want thinset under their boards. 

*Not a single one allows for the use of any construction adhesive.*

The Tile Council of North America specifies thinset in their forty plus year old Handbook for the Installation of Ceramic Tile.

The entire tile and stone industry warns against using construction adhesive for this application and supports the use of thinset.

So all you boneheads that can't stay up with the reading assignments do as you please, the smart guys are going to follow the rules.


----------



## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

wow :bangin:


----------



## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Without me interrupting.....And I am not a tile guy, so no offense Mr. Cline, for I do respect your Omniscience when it comes to tile and the like......Where did he say he was ADHERING *tile* with LN or Construction Adhesive????

Anyone??? Anyone???

The Oil Companies recommend that I change my Oil EVERY 3000 miles. Yet the REAL professionals suggest every 5000 - 7000 miles. I go 4500. ALWAYS!


----------



## Bill (Mar 30, 2006)

MALCO.New.York said:


> The Oil Companies recommend that I change my Oil EVERY 3000 miles. Yet the REAL professionals suggest every 5000 - 7000 miles. I go 4500. ALWAYS!


Oil?? Whats that? What do you mean change it?:w00t:


----------



## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> MALCO.New.York: "Without me interrupting.....And I am not a tile guy, so no offense Mr. Klein, for I do respect you Omniscience when it comes to tile and the like......*Where did he say he was ADHERING tile with LN or Construction Adhesive*????Anyone??? Anyone???"



Is that not what this paragraph says:



> finehomes/Sam: "I've been doing it that way for years. _Scrape the floors, *put down liquid nails*, lay down the hardi backer_, then nail the piss out of it with a roofing nailer."


Am I misreading something?

:sad:


----------



## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Yea he uses LN for the hardi not the actual tile...


----------



## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> Yea he uses LN for the hardi not the actual tile...



And therein lies the problem.


----------



## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Exactly...Just clarifying for those playing along at home.


----------



## SES Constructio (Mar 1, 2008)

I'm not an expert at tiling but isn't the thinset behind the backer to fill any voids in between the sub floor and backer so there is no movement when walked on. So liquid nails would actually create more voids cause it puts a bead of adhesive down and where there isn't a bead there is more of a gap.


----------



## Forry (Feb 12, 2007)

SES Constructio said:


> I'm not an expert at tiling but isn't the thinset behind the backer to fill any voids in between the sub floor and backer so there is no movement when walked on. So liquid nails would actually create more voids cause it puts a bead of adhesive down and where there isn't a bead there is more of a gap.



You got it. :thumbsup:


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

SES Constructio said:


> I'm not an expert at tiling but isn't the thinset behind the backer to fill any voids in between the sub floor and backer so there is no movement when walked on. So liquid nails would actually create more voids cause it puts a bead of adhesive down and where there isn't a bead there is more of a gap.


BINGO! :stuart:


----------



## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> *I'm not an expert at tiling but isn't the thinset behind the backer to fill any voids in between the sub floor and backer so there is no movement when walked on. So liquid nails would actually create more voids cause it puts a bead of adhesive down and where there isn't a bead there is more of a gap.*


*WE HAVE A WINNER!*
*JOHNNY TELL HIM WHAT HE HAS WON!!!!*
THAT is exactly the issue. In my thinking using NOTHING would be better than using construction adhesive. Once it dries it dries very hard creating a gazillion voids you wouldn't otherwise have.

I hate to be such a *****, but the guys that can't or won't read and follow the instructions in this industry are the same guys that piss and moan and blame the cop that wrote them the speeding ticket when the ticket could have been avoided simply by following the basic rules. Those are the same guys that blame the bartender for getting them drunk last Saturday night.:sad:

The guys that claim "I've been doing it wrong for a hundred years and never had a problem" are the same guys that never get call backs to do more jobs for the same customer. No body comes to an Internet forum to brag about all the job failures they have had. NOBODY!

I know when one of my subs has a failure I fix it myself or hire someone else and I never call the original joker again. So those guys can also brag about never having a problem. They just don't know it!:no:


----------



## dayspring (Mar 4, 2006)

finehomes said:


> Thanks for the reassurance BUD!!!! I've only laid 1000's of feet of tile this way and NEVER had a call back....in ten years. Most of the floors have been travertine...only about the most brittle floor you could put down and have fail. You guys keep doing it the old fashioned way if you like....I'll do it my way for the same price and make lots more money!!!!!


 
Only problem is it does not meet the manufactuers recommendations and will void their warranty if you do have one fail. If the home you build should have a life span of one hundred years, I believe the tile floor of which is permanant should be done as per manufactuer suggest or better, then you know your work is done as best it can be done and will live as long as the house itself.

I have seen liquid nails fail before, and just because you haven't had any call backs does not mean it will last.

It really doesn't take that long to spread thin-set and tape the joints. Or screw it down for that matter. But then at least you do use a backer, I've seen tile work with no backer before.:w00t:


----------



## trav007 (Jan 25, 2008)

It's funny, there are those who know and those who think. The problem comes when people think they know. 
You will find there are many ways to skin a cat but I'm sure if you google it, you will find that there is a "recommended" procedure. The key word being recommended. Most if not all manufacturers over-engineer their products in order to avoid things like complaints and oh....say.....*the occassional lawsuit.* It would only make sense to follow the recommended procedure but being that, in reality, it is only a suggestion, who's to say that something can't be done another way. 
If your confident that a different method can give the same results then I say go for it. But whatever you choose to do, remember the one thing that each manufacuter deos that you should as well. 

*CYA.*


----------



## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Roccommendations are generally built on research and developement. Why try to second-guess those in the know? What's the point?


----------



## trav007 (Jan 25, 2008)

Hey Bud, no offense but I'm curious. When one of you subs has a failure and you don't let them know or give them the opportunity to fix it how are they supposed to get better? At least call them and tell them not to expect any future business from you.


----------



## finehomes (Feb 4, 2007)

Before you go judging the process....I suggest you go try to rip up some backer that has been installed this way. Backer installed with thinset will come right up with a scraper....try to take up some that's been put down with glue.....you'll be there for days pulling up little tiny pieces and scraping the glue. 

I'm not saying that my way is right and the other way is wrong....mine is just much faster and just as good. I'll continue to do it with no worries and no failures and never a call back.


----------



## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Bud Cline said:


> Roccommendations are generally built on research and developement. Why try to second-guess those in the know? What's the point?



How many light fixtures have a MAXIMUM wattage of 60 or 75????

Nearly ALL.

This is an UNDERSTATEMENT so to avoid lawsuits IF overheating were to occur.



I am not saying that LN is BETTER than TS. I am only saying that "If it works, for you, Do it!"


Doughnut spare tire. " Do not exceed 50 MPH. Do not use for more than X miles". I have TESTED this statement!!! 70 MPH and 300+ miles before concern for safety was an issue.


----------



## trav007 (Jan 25, 2008)

Hey Malco, you make a fine point. TESTING something before applying it to practice is a good idea.


----------



## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

trav007 said:


> Hey Malco, you make a fine point. TESTING something before applying it to practice is a good idea.



Yeah....Kinda like seeing if banging my head against a brick wall hurts more than I can tolerate.

It is not the wall or the head that matters. It is the frequency and the force that makes the difference. Situational.


----------



## finehomes (Feb 4, 2007)

trav007 said:


> Hey Bud, no offense but I'm curious. When one of you subs has a failure and you don't let them know or give them the opportunity to fix it how are they supposed to get better? At least call them and tell them not to expect any future business from you.


 
Trav....we should be wondering why Bud even claims to be having subs???? According to his profile he is a tile contractor??? Why would he have subs then??? Seems a little fishy eh?


----------



## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Well he may have subs for the other trades...


----------



## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

I sub to plumbers, I sub to electricians, I sub to carpentry contractors, I sub to other tileguys on some bigger jobs. And I have been known to sub to junior tileguys that think they can do it and make more subbing. I judge whether or not they should be given an opportunity to do something over. Just depends. Not that much ever goes wrong when everyone uses reconized methods and goes by the play book.

And that's all I'm saying. plumbers have a code to follow, electricians have a code to follow, tileguys have a code to follow, so why try to reinvent the wheel. If a method has been proven to be unseccessful then why insist on doing it that way. Trust the craftsmen that came before you.

If you go by the book then you have something to fall back on if something does go to hell. If you shoot from the hip then all you have to rely on is "I've been doing it like that forever and never had a problem before."

The judge is gonna love that.


----------



## trav007 (Jan 25, 2008)

Yah, not a very good defense in court. I try not to think about what my defense would be though, as I try to do it right the first time. And if I can't, well, then I'll do the best I can given the situation at hand; or just stop and and think and come back another day.

Anyways, as a final note....mistakes happen, negligence shouldn't.

By the way, I love the idea of using a roofing nailer. I just got one and now have another use for it. Thanks. This will surely speed up my process, even a quickdrive can't keep up to that.


----------



## plazaman (Apr 17, 2005)

high end jobs, backer board , thinset, nails, rehab houses, nail lath with roofing nails, tile and thinset over. Over concrete, directly onto concrete with thinset. dad has been doing this for over 20 years, floors still holding strong to date


----------



## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

You use lathe? Please explain further.


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

You know that Hardi is naturally harvested product from the moon right? It's not like a company engineered it, developed it or created it along with researching their installation methods or tested them in controlled environements.

Backer boards are naturally occuring materials that man has been using since the days of the caveman, there is no or wrong way because it's been lost in time.

Liquid nails? I use peanut butter, but we always use Jiff smooth and creamy, not the crunchy only hacks use crunchy, I've never had a call back using smooth peanut butter. Plus what's with the screws and nails, it's faster to use thumb tacks and as has been said that's what it's all about right, doing it faster and making more money then those doing things some way that takes too long.


----------



## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

From another thread just started 



SES Constructio said:


> Thanks for the reply. There isn't any thinset under the backer and my floor guy said that is the main reason the floor cracked and is getting replaced. By small rotary hammer what size do you mean? Any recomendations on a particular size or model you would recomend? thanks again


----------



## finehomes (Feb 4, 2007)

Alwaysconfusd11 said:


> From another thread just started


 
Probably wasn't ANYTHING under the backer and that's why things cracked. There has to be some adhesive of some sort there or it will definately have some problems.


----------



## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

This will be my last and final post on this subject, I cant change you, I kinda hope Mike Holmes gets ahold of one of your jobs though..

*Q:*







*Can you use liquid nails or glue with Hardibacker?*A:







No. Where Hardibacker underlayment is being installed over a code-complying subfloor for the attachment of tile, the underlayment is installed over a 3/32"-1/4" thick bed of bonding mortar and then nailed down. "Liquid Nails" is not a bonding mortar. It is a structural adhesive generally used to bond the subfloor to the floor joists just prior to nailing. It creates a very solid joint between the surface of the floor joist and the subfloor and aids in reducing floor squeak. The properties of Liquid Nails are such that it is applied via a tube in the form of a bead-like caulking. It is not trowelable like a mortar and therefore results in high ridges with unsupported areas that can deflect under load, resulting in cracked tile. Where the Hardibacker underlayment is being installed directly to wood or metal framing, the use of a structural adhesive in addition to mechanical fastening can be used. However, the underlayment must be forced into the structural adhesive almost immediately upon application to insure that no ridge or crown is formed. The creation of a crown or ridge will result in an additional thickness of mortar being applied to fill in the valley created by the crown. This will require a longer curing time and result in a weaker bond between the tile and the mortar and the underlayment. The use of a structural adhesive does not result in fewer fasteners being required. 

*Q:*







*Why do you have to use thinset between the Hardibacker and the subfloor?*A:







Dry set (ANSI 118.1) or acrylic modified thinset (ANSI 118.4) is specified between the Hardibacker and the subfloor to eliminate any deviations between our product and the subfloor. This decreases the probability of popping or cracking tiles due to deflection and air pockets. 

(http://lowes.jameshardie.com/backerboard/homeowner/faq.htm#7)


----------



## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Never again shall you be allowed to bad mouth Lowes!


----------



## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Its the same exact information as on the actual Hardie site, I just wonder how many of there employees actually tell HO that its ok...


----------

