# Powermatic 66 Table Saw



## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

I am looking at purchasing a 2004 Powermatic 66-TA, 5 HP 1Phase from craigslist. It looks like it is in good shape and comes with a lot of accessories. 

http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/tls/3890224834.html

Problem is I don't need the accessories and at this point they are not willing to brake up the set. They want $3k for everything which seems really high to me. If I was to buy everything and sell off the few accessories I would only be able to get about $300 for them. My question would is, what do you guys think this should realistically be worth.

Thanks!


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Sounds like you're paying $2700 for a used $3000 saw. After you sell the stuff. I see them regularly for 1000 to 1500.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Def ain't no $3k worth there. Buy a new one for not much more. Maybe $2000 for the lot if they were lucky.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

I was thinking $1800-1900 range myself. I wonder sometimes where people come up with these numbers.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

openhearth said:


> I was thinking $1800-1900 range myself. I wonder sometimes where people come up with these numbers.



Probably wishing it was one from the 60's early 70's....:thumbsup:

On the newer equipment it is pretty tough to go wrong with the stuff from Grizzly....:thumbup:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Last 66 I bought was a early 90's model, 5hp 54" fence for 850.00 That was through a machinery dealer.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

griz said:


> Probably wishing it was one from the 60's early 70's....:thumbsup:
> 
> On the newer equipment it is pretty tough to go wrong with the stuff from Grizzly....:thumbup:


Grizzly


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Grizzly



Ya, no pun intended....:laughing::laughing:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Don't buy pac rim garbage


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Don't buy pac rim garbage


Unless a guy wants to buy that antique iron you get, there are not many other choices...


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

There are choices besides what I have and grizzly wouldn't even make the list.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> There are choices besides what I have and grizzly wouldn't even make the list.


Care to share your list?:whistling


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## Jswills76 (Nov 12, 2012)

That's a nice set up. Real clean . I sold my 66 on ebay ( didn't have the space at the time)1250 $. I didn't have all the extras. I see them on craigs a lot 1000-2000$ but they don't alway look as good as that one.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

I was actually looking at buying the 5Hp 1023 from grizzly when I found this saw. Got tired of looking and I need a saw. The new PM's are made in china, way over priced and not anywhere close to what they were. I know the Grizzly's are a cheaper saw, but not terrible considering most of the them are made in China now or at least most of the parts are from there.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Don't buy pac rim garbage


Would you mind elaborating on why you think they are garbage.

I would like to see your list as well


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Bought a 5hp 1ph 50" Jet earlier this year for 2650. Considered the grizzly on cost. The table saw is the one piece that I would not go cost effective on. My dad, now departed, has/had a grizzly 3hp for 20 years. Tight as the day we set it up. He was a finish carpenter who built cabinets and custom pieces here and there.

We ran a 3hp jet table saw for 6 years in the previous partnership. Even survived pissed off shop guys jamming solid surface as hard as they could push....Knew what I was getting, so that's why I went with it.


Love to see the list.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

$1250

http://reno.craigslist.org/tls/3888296068.html

I see them $1200-1500 here


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Most would be too expensive for anyone here, couldn't power them up or even move one.

You guys are right, I would rather have a whimpy unisaw then any of the china junk. 

For new, Northfield #4, Martin, SCMI (both sliders), General canada (crap just shut down) the new unisaw, if it is still being made here (not a delta fan), Altendorf. Some of those are Eruo saws, but not made in a 3rd world country that pretty much owns us.

Lots of pm66, pm72, deltas, northfields, yates, olivers etc on the used market, all available through your local used machinery dealer, who will stand behind the saw and help with any questions you may have.

Screw the asian crap tin box saws, (I am not even a huge fan of the pms, deltas and the like, little light weight for my tastes)


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

One Table Saw I think that is very well designed/built , is The Wadkin- PK Dimension Saw.,Wadkin Ltd. Leicester, England


(Jacks machine): http://youtu.be/CshzDpA4AXs



You should see the restoration he did.......incredible ...


I say get what you feel comfortable with, 


B,:thumbsup:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

The PK is great if you are 4' 6".

The hand wheels are at about shin level, does not look it in pictures, but once you stand in front of one, you realize it.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

General is having a sale on the 3HP left tilt cabinet saw w\extension table. $2k, pretty good deal. I would rather have the used PM 66 for that price, but this could be a good backup plan. 

I am sure I will be abused for asking, but the General is that much better than the grizzly? The General only weighs 371lbs and the Grizzly 1023 is 547lbs

http://www.general.ca/promo/Flyer-promo-wood_ENG.pdf


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Just curious if any of you guys that bash grizzly, have actually used a grizzly saw?

There's places in my life, I'm pretty much a purist, but my tools are not one of them. I buy tools to produce a product. My grizzly TS has done everything I've ever asked it to do & I don't treat tools nicely, they get a workout.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Yes Pin,
I have - not a bad saw ......

Personally - I am into OWWM when it comes to WW machinery. I think it's a personal decision and no matter what brand it is- as long as gets the job done and your happy- that's all that matters....:thumbsup:




B,


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Yeah, they are cheap tin china crap boxes. I have no use for china made crap tools and machines. Grizzly is the same as ryobi to me, fine if you want to pretend and send your money overseas.

Personally, I find the unisaws and pm66 to be kind of a flimsy saw. Not into sheet metal cabinets. Hell, I have owned and used both.

Although a 1 hp single phase unisaw would make a good job siite saw.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

OWWM is not for everyone D.



I am in agreement on how you feel but as I said its not for everyone.....






B,


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I am not telling them too, I am just saying screw the china junk, if that includes grizzley, jet, new PM, so be it.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I am not telling them too, I am just saying screw the china junk, if that includes grizzley, jet, new PM, so be it.


I respect that decision for you Darcey. Hell, I've got a very early 40's unisaw that I need to get the motor fixed on. When that happens, it'll go back to being my primary saw. But the real truth for me is whatever makes my bank account the fattest is where my loyalty lies. Beside, Grizzly is right here in MO, so I can go in & pick up whatever I need when I'm in the area. When ya live in BFE like I do, ya take what ya can get when ya can get it.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Back to the op here's one in Syracuse


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/tls/3826035205.html


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

If you can deal with some weight and phase conversions....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLIVER-270-...647?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257f76bb8f


http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/467246.html



Get what you like but I will say this, the differences from the older machinery that was made in the US and the machinery coming in container ships from Asian manufactures is vast. Until you go see these types of comercial grade machinery, it's hard to capture emotions through words....


If you can find an older made (US) saw bench with a slider , that's a great feature, I use mine a lot on my 88D.


The choice is ultimately yours but look at all your options before you pull the trigger.


B,


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

Honestly I like the OWWM, but I am not real confident in my abilities to get the old machines restored or fixed if there is something wrong. I don't have any background with these at all and I need something up and running right away because of work. Here is a local Tannewitz. Know nothing about them though.

http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/tls/3845404810.html

I really like the Oliver stuff
http://www.vintagemachinery.org/classifieds/detail.aspx?id=826&p=3


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## tccoggs (Dec 17, 2008)

PrestigeR&D said:


> If you can deal with some weight and phase conversions....
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLIVER-270-...647?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257f76bb8f
> 
> ...



Your also gonna have to retrofit a new modern fence on there as well. Some technology has improved in the last 100 years. That fence might be good if you were ripping 1 size all day, but I would rather have an accufence or similar fence on there over the stock. I'm sure the construction of the saw is good, but I think the modern designs are more flexible when it comes to multiple tasks.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

Thoughts?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oliver-4045...296?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35a9d240a0

Where are the Oliver's manufactured and assembled now?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

tccoggs said:


> Your also gonna have to retrofit a new modern fence on there as well. Some technology has improved in the last 100 years. That fence might be good if you were ripping 1 size all day, but I would rather have an accufence or similar fence on there over the stock. I'm sure the construction of the saw is good, but I think the modern designs are more flexible when it comes to multiple tasks.


I actually prefer the rack and pinion style fence over a modern beismeyer fence, adjustments are quick, simple and very accurate. You can angle a fence like that and do cove work easily. 

I rip all my lumber on a saw from 1885 and prefer it over the late model 66 that I used for a year. You can actually do more with that fence and similar then any modern fence. You dont need to buy extra junk for them to do extra things like you do with most modern fences.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

openhearth said:


> Thoughts?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oliver-4045-003-12-Heavy-Duty-Table-Saw-/230482395296?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35a9d240a0
> 
> Where are the Oliver's manufactured and assembled now?


Taiwan or China. Only thing they have to do with the old oliver is they stole the name.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Taiwan or China. Only thing they have to do with the old oliver is they stole the name.


I just read that. How sad. I was pretty excited when I saw their new saws, but then I figured the prices were too low to be made in the USA. If I am going to buy an Asian saw I will save the $ and get a Grizzly. 

Found a great article though. I may call this guy to find out what he has used. Only 2 hrs from me. Interesting history. A 62' Lathe. Crazy #[email protected]!

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2012/04/the_legend_of_oliver_machinery.html


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

openhearth said:


> I just read that. How sad. I was pretty excited when I saw their new saws, but then I figured the prices were too low to be made in the USA. If I am going to buy an Asian saw I will save the $ and get a Grizzly.
> 
> Found a great article though. I may call this guy to find out what he has used. Only 2 hrs from me. Interesting history. A 62' Lathe. Crazy #[email protected]!
> 
> http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2012/04/the_legend_of_oliver_machinery.html


It sounds good, but in dealing with the guy, you find out pretty quick that he is pretty much a dick. 

I know I sound like a dick saying it, but from personal dealings and being told of the same experinces by machinery dealers and fellow old machine users I know, he is consistent with his poor attitude. He is nice if you are stoking on his oliver while giving him a reach around though.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> It sounds good, but in dealing with the guy, you find out pretty quick that he is pretty much a dick.
> 
> I know I sound like a dick saying it, but from personal dealings and being told of the same experinces by machinery dealers and fellow old machine users I know, he is consistent with his poor attitude. He is nice if you are stoking on his oliver while giving him a reach around though.


Maybe I will just drive over there and kick him in the junk instead


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

It's sad, the same thing is going on with the grandson of the founder of Moak, another Michigan machinery manufacturer. Tannaweitz, Yates American and a couple others that are still around either deny they ever made something or their attorneys send you a letter demanding you destroy whatever piece of machinery that you have.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

So, not to beat a dead horse, but I am now looking at the General 650R-ST52-M2M 5HP model. It is the only saw they still build in Canada. After reading they will no longer will be producing anything in North America after last fall I am assuming they will only be selling these until the stock is gone. They also say that "Warranty
service and replacement parts for existing General MFG. models will be available through General International and our network of dealers for years to come." 

I am assuming this means all replacement parts will be produced in China? 

Is this the last saw in the $3k price range that was made in NA or are there others?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

My machinery dealer in fort Wayne has a brand new one of those sitting in his show room, not at a new price though. Check out noble machinery.


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## J.C. (Sep 28, 2009)

openhearth said:


> So, not to beat a dead horse, but I am now looking at the General 650R-ST52-M2M 5HP model. It is the only saw they still build in Canada. After reading they will no longer will be producing anything in North America after last fall I am assuming they will only be selling these until the stock is gone. They also say that "Warranty
> service and replacement parts for existing General MFG. models will be available through General International and our network of dealers for years to come."
> 
> I am assuming this means all replacement parts will be produced in China?
> ...


The delta unisaws are currently made in South Carolina. Can't say I'm a big fan of the current owners.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Ahhhh,.....
The fence debate resurfaces........:laughing: 
And D's Idol.......... Rich Fink....... :laughing:



Let me ask you,....

Do you think a 5' fence is better than a 30" fence...(length- not capacity ).....?

The answer:

Makes no difference if your ripping 8' on her....


Most people have this preconceived notion that a longer fence is better ......not so......

Picture this. Your ripping a 8' board on a table saw ( which is not really what it was designed for to begin with) but you do it anyways - as so many of us have done and still do from time to time. ...but avoid it like the plague .....
Anyways ...
You want the cut to be "perfectly" straight from end to end. Now in order to accomplish this you would need to have a fence that fell 8' before the blade and 8' after the blade to make absolutely certain the cut will be straight and standing on its cut ;be absolutely flat with no daylight in-between, a perfectly parallel cut to the blade /fence. 


So when your feeding your table saw, the fence is vastly lacking ahead of the blade and behind the blade....there is nothing to make certain in the beginning of feeding an 8' piece into your saw that the board is perfectly parallel to the blade . then when the beginning portion of the board passes the end of the fence there is no more support after the fence to keep the board parallel to the blade,.....yet the cut is dimensionally accurate.........:blink:...go figure....:blink:

A Panel saw.....horizontal .....uses the full length of its defined rip or crosscut capacity 8.5' in front -8.5 behind the expansion rail spanning a whopping 19' perfect parallel position to the blade.

So, 
No matter what it is your cutting - most of the time the size in length is usually superior to the the fence length........

Only way to get that amount of precision from a "table saw" is on a horizontal panel saw (a very well made machine,and they are expensive)...

Have you ever used a commercial grade rack & pinion fence.....:blink: to update to a Biesemeyer fence on my 88D would be downgrading (IMPO)

They are an extremely well built fence design, extremely accurate, very easy to use....if you had to get one new...$$$$$..:laughing:..you would fall off your chair.....its pretty close to what your thinking of spending on your saw......


Anyways ,
Don't be fooled with the bigger is better theory for a table saw fence (length) ...it's BS... that is unless your planning on throwing a whopping 19' custom built fence on your table saw.....:laughing:

Anyways,...

Try to Think about it...-.logically...

Oh,
One more note, if i where you, and Im not , but anyway- i would stay away from the New Oliver - I call them Cholivers - all made overseas.....Asian .......not even close to the original quality and construction. The Original Oliver WW machinery company dated from 1903 up till 1986...that would be all the "original" Oliver machinery and they spared no expense with the construction ,as did most of the WW machinery manufacturers in this category....






B,


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

J.C. said:


> The delta unisaws are currently made in South Carolina. Can't say I'm a big fan of the current owners.


I was under the impression they were only "assembled" in the US, but all of the parts were manufactured in Asia


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

Found this. What a steal
http://www.machinerymax.com/detail.asp?id=2562&n=Oliver-88D-18quot-Table-Saw-RESERVE-MET


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## J.C. (Sep 28, 2009)

openhearth said:


> I was under the impression they were only "assembled" in the US, but all of the parts were manufactured in Asia


Depending on who you talk to, they are 70-75% of US content.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

If that was listed with no reserve .....it would be gone. That 88D was listed on eBay a while back and IIRC it was listed for $2000.00 as a starting bid.

The problem for most people is location,location,location.......
The shipping would be a deal breaker to get a machine of this weight shipped across the country. 

Do you have 3ph power supplied in your shop?:blink:




B,


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

that looks like a nice setup. I haven't used my (cheap) tablesaw in forever b/c all of my accurate cuts are done with the tracksaw.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

PrestigeR&D said:


> Do you have 3ph power supplied in your shop?:blink:B,


I do not, and I would rather avoid a phase converter if I can.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

I would really like to pickup an Oliver 232 or 270, and I will down the road, but I am planning on moving soon and do not want to have to move it twice. I need a bigger shop first. I found this one on CL today and I am going to take a look at it in a couple of hours. For now I think it will work just fine, and it is made in the USA.

http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/tls/3900395862.html

Thanks for everyone's help. Learned a lot about real table saws in the past few days.

Scott


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## Jswills76 (Nov 12, 2012)

Reading this had me looking on craigslist for a 66 to see what some are going for. Now I'm taking a 3 hr drive to get one in the morning


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Good for you..:thumbsup:

Remember the rules though.....no pics....it didn't happen...:no:





B,:thumbsup:


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## Jswills76 (Nov 12, 2012)

Ill put one up on sat. Its stuck in my van till then haha heavy


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

I ended up picking up the Unisaw, outfeed table and a Forest WW II blade for $950. Took a day to move and get setup, but it is great shape. I still have some re-org to do now that I have this huge saw in my tiny shop, but pretty happy with it so far.


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## Jswills76 (Nov 12, 2012)

prestiger&d said:


> good for you..:thumbsup:
> 
> Remember the rules though.....no pics....it didn't happen...:no:
> 
> B,:thumbsup:


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Nice picks guys...:thumbsup: Your going to really enjoy working with your new machines....

By the way. This: http://www.machinerymax.com/detail.asp?id=2562&n=Oliver-88D-18quot-Table-Saw-RESERVE-MET

Is now here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oliver-Tabl...g-Machinery-/170935023864?hash=item27cc8578f8






B,:thumbsup:


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

PrestigeR&D said:


> Nice picks guys...:thumbsup: Your going to really enjoy working with your new machines....
> 
> By the way. This: http://www.machinerymax.com/detail.asp?id=2562&n=Oliver-88D-18quot-Table-Saw-RESERVE-MET
> 
> ...


Nice. I wonder why it said reserve met at $430. I really like the Northfield #4 on Ebay right now. Had I already moved to a new shop I would have really considered making them an offer.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Northfield-...r-Rip-Fence-/360500359803?hash=item53ef7ef27b


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Nice #4 Scott....
Although,
It's nice to see them kept together....the fence, miter....Don't get me wrong on this,...The Biez is a nice fence but the finiky buyers that are deep into OWWM like to see machinery with almost all of it being original. 

Looks like it's in good shape ! but looks are just that..... I really don't care to buy machinery without inspecting it first....you can win ,....or loose...

Especially (some) machinery dealers.....when they know nothing (about) the machinery that sends red flags off all over the place. Some of them are very good and know the machinery inside and out. But the middle man (out to make a quick buck) machinery salesman are something to take note........


If you can, Keep us posted on how your new machines are going gentleman.....

thumbs up,

B,


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

PrestigeR&D said:


> Nice #4 Scott....
> Although,
> It's nice to see them kept together....the fence, miter....Don't get me wrong on this,...The Biez is a nice fence but the finiky buyers that are deep into OWWM like to see machinery with almost all of it being original.
> 
> ...


Makes perfect sense, thank you. I will have to fly you out to Detroit when I am ready. :thumbup: I don't know anything about them other than they last forever if taken care of. I still have to tune my Unisaw and not sure on everything I have to do, but with enough reading I will figure it out. Thanks again for the info! Scott


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