# Licensed VS. Unlicensed



## jgjrei (Mar 8, 2007)

I was Just wondering if anyone could tell me first of all an idea of how much more a licensed painting contractor can charge than one who is not licensed. Also, how is it that licensed contractors can get enough jobs if there are so many contractors out there running "businesses" unlicensed? aside from the obvious need to stand out based on quality and professionalism. Any input would be appreciated.


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## farrellpainting (Feb 24, 2007)

A licensed contractor can charge as much as he can get!

An un-licensed's contractor can't charge anything!

How we stand out is that we get more and bigger jobs due to the fact that we are professional, legal and have Ins.!

Don't plan on getting too far in life as a painting contractor, if you think it will cost you less to "do business" with out a license/paying taxes!


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

jgjrei said:


> I was Just wondering if anyone could tell me first of all an idea of how much more a licensed painting contractor can charge than one who is not licensed. Also, how is it that licensed contractors can get enough jobs if there are so many contractors out there running "businesses" unlicensed? aside from the obvious need to stand out based on quality and professionalism. Any input would be appreciated.



Depends on if during your own presentation, you tell them exactly what you said above and remind them to check license and insurance from all who work on thier home... thier biggest investment ever.... then show em yours.


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## 4thGeneration (Nov 23, 2006)

Bottom line is homeowners are looking for rock bottom prices for the majority of estimates. If they can cut someone 100 dollars they will. I will never lower my prices again. I hd a real estate lady try and get me to go lower on price because they were moving to a bigger house and had a budget. What about my family and the budget I have I said. I also asked has she ever cut her % take because remember they all have a "Budget" My whole thing is stop trying to keep up with neighbor and buy a home you can afford to keep up. I always show ins, license and such, but are never asked for it.


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## jgjrei (Mar 8, 2007)

I appreciate the input. I fully understand the importance of having a license and running legitimate business, however it just seems that the market being what it is does not reward those who are licensed. therefore does one get a license simply to be protected or is there a real difference in pricing?


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## farrellpainting (Feb 24, 2007)

Get a damn license and build a business!

Who cares about the low-life self proclaimed paint contractor, that will be undercutting other contractors for small time jobs, for poor clients, til he's 75!


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

jgjrei said:


> I was Just wondering if anyone could tell me first of all an idea of how much more a licensed painting contractor can charge than one who is not licensed.


_here's the breakdown

*$8.35 per square foot without license
$9.64 per square foot with license


additional 20% mark up with insurance (25% with workers comp)*


NOW ... KEEP IN MIND ... the rates in your area might not be the same as mine!!!!_


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## jgjrei (Mar 8, 2007)

Dirt Diggler, Thank you. I didnt want to come off as against licensing. I am far from that. Just wanted to know the real differences we should expect as legitimate contractors in terms of both benefits and pay.


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## farrellpainting (Feb 24, 2007)

dirt diggler said:


> _here's the breakdown_
> 
> _*$8.35 per square foot without license*_
> _*$9.64 per square foot with license*_
> ...





jgjrei said:


> Dirt Diggler, Thank you. I didnt want to come off as against licensing. I am far from that. Just wanted to know the real differences we should expect as legitimate contractors in terms of both benefits and pay.


 :no: !


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## Richard (May 21, 2006)

*jgjrei*



jgjrei said:


> I was Just wondering if anyone could tell me first of all an idea of how much more a licensed painting contractor can charge than one who is not licensed. Also, how is it that licensed contractors can get enough jobs if there are so many contractors out there running "businesses" unlicensed? aside from the obvious need to stand out based on quality and professionalism. Any input would be appreciated.


An unlicensed painting contractor can and will charge whatever they can get. They typically will charge less than a legit business owner, but not always. Keep in mind that in some states you dont need a license to operate a business. I feel like carrying insurance is more important than having a "license" which is really just a tax thing anyway. Insurance is a monthly cost, where a license is a one time payment per year. 

I hope and pray that all the unlicensed/uninsured idiots break or drop a $300,000 vase or painting. Or drop their ladder onto a customers car. Or better yet, burn down a customers house. Then and only then, I will be satisfied. :w00t:


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## Exroadog (Feb 11, 2005)

Also....if your unlisensed, all checks written to you will have to be written in your name. So when you cash enough or get a few big ones, the IRS gets a red flag! They will hunt you down! And to get a business bank account, you need the license, unless your in one of those un licensed states!


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

Exroadog said:


> Also....if your unlisensed, all checks written to you will have to be written in your name. So when you cash enough or get a few big ones, the IRS gets a red flag! They will hunt you down! And to get a business bank account, you need the license, unless your in one of those un licensed states!


Yes each state has different license requirements and it varies big between different states. Here in IL Painting contractors do not have to have a license with the state. All tho each village would love you to have one to work their. I have work in over 50 different towns and I am not going to pay each town money to work there. Not going to happen. If I will a GC, Electrician, Plumber and working with in the limits of a permit within a village then yes I see a purpose for it.

(BTW - I pay taxes, insurance and have a business banking accounts)


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## Joewho (Sep 20, 2006)

Bottom line is that being licensed, insured, pay taxes, costs more to do business, so you have to charge more.


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## KellyPainting (May 30, 2006)

*Massachusettes*

I live in Mass. We do not have to get a license. 
If we choose we can send $200.00 to some government agency and get a piece of paper in the mail.There is no test, no qualifications... just send money. I do not have a license...what I do have is insurance, bank account.. and a steady business built on references. I can get my dog a license tomorrow if I wish, but what will it prove.

In my short time in business (only 2 years) I have been asked for proof of insurance once..other than that, I am never asked for anything. I have never even given a page of references.. just rattled off a few names here and there..(Did I mention Bob..from Bob's discount furniture?..ya..I did his house). maybe because I don't work for people who have never heard of me yet.

I think there should be paint inspectors..ya thats right...
and there should be codes and fines. Maybe even some 
color citations... I'd love that!


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## farrellpainting (Feb 24, 2007)

Are we talkin about a "Painting License?" or a DBA for tax purposes?

I'm a little confused, is there really an actual license?


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## KellyPainting (May 30, 2006)

Not where I live, it's a general contractors license 
...and I have never seen a Painting license in my life
can anyone produce one? please copy and paste (along with a unicorn)
I have been painting for around fifteen years in conn, R.I and Mass.
No one has ever showed one to me ever...you would have thought I would have seen one by now if say..they were so important.

I do have a business certificate from my town.
if thats what you mean.


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## jgjrei (Mar 8, 2007)

In our State (California) any painting contractor must have a contractors license to accept any job over $500, so umm, yeah. We're talking about a Contractors License, well at least I was.


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## farrellpainting (Feb 24, 2007)

Kelly,So where you live you can get a GC license in the mail for $200, w/o takin any test's? 

You should have your business registered by filing a DBA(doing business as) to get an EIN(employment I.D) to pay taxes,and make you eligible to obtain Ins.That's all that N.Y requires anyway!

I don't really give a f**k anymore, people can pay taxes, or not, have Ins, or not, License? etc... I just hope that they come do an estimate after me because I notify every prospect of the potential atrocities of doing business with HACK's! Good Luck !


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## farrellpainting (Feb 24, 2007)

Jihad?,What are the requirements to this painting license?

For any paint work over $500???


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

In every state you must have a business license filed in the county/city that your office is located, as well as at least an LLC to actually be "legal". Some states require certification and a license to do whatever the trade you are working in calls for however, most do not. You CANNOT get an EIN/business account/insurance without proper certs, nor can you get workers comp or exempt without it. Those that do not are illegal and can be hit with well over 1500.00 in fines for a single incident. If you have no idea what I am talking about, you are not legal.


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## jgjrei (Mar 8, 2007)

in our state you do pay $200 or so but you also take the tests for both business and your appropriate job proficiency (painting) as well as the obvious requirement for I think 4 years of experience and the $10,000 bond requirement. BTW Im only reffering to the contractors license not the insurance all else.


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## farrellpainting (Feb 24, 2007)

Slinger, I have never heard of a painting license in N.Y.?

I registered my business (DBA) with my EIN I get Ins. through the state fund,biz accounts @ BOA, and I can get WC through paychex.

I'm not sayin that your wrong I just have never heard anything about a painting license?Do you or anyone else know how I get one in N.Y. if there is one anyway?I'm pretty sure that when I read the info from the state when I registered, that the only thing that I could get a license for was lead abatement?


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## Joewho (Sep 20, 2006)

Isn't that FEIN? Federal Employers Identification Number. It's required to pay or collect tax money. Unless something has changed, you can still start a legitimate business, by yourself (no employees) and use your SS in the FEIN box. Same for getting insurance.

You have to have it in every state because it's Federal. Not all states require a business license per se.

What about sole ownership? Partnerships, Incs.? 
I do not want an LLC. There's other ways to do business without the LLC designation. When I see a company with LLC at the end, it tells me their liability to me is limited. If I use someone for something, I want them to take full responsibility. Most of the designations were intended for large business'. However, it is beneficial to a painting contractor to be able to incorporate. At least it's my limited understanding. I might not have the whole picture.

Not razzin you, just trying to get all the options out there.

Seeing as I'm not anyone right now, I'm a little bummed about being outcast from being legitmate. And never will be in Nevada's eyes. However, as long as I have insurance, pay my taxes and don't rip people off, no one can tell me I'm not legitimate. Especially Nevada. 

It's my (go against the system) opinion that it's unconstituional for Nv to tell me I can't enter into a legally binding contract. As a matter of fact, they fine for it, but a contract is still a binding contract. Has the US changed so much that a guy can't put on his pants, go out into the world and make himself a living? We still live under the constitution and somewhere in there is a latin phrase (caveat emptor)that translates to "buyer beware". Is that not valid any more? Is it even in the constitution? Or somewhere else? Edit: no wonder i know that phrase, it was originated in real estate.

It all comes down to some people undercutting other honest people who don't cut corners. That's the difference, I think.


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## KellyPainting (May 30, 2006)

So, have we determined that there is or is not a "painting license" ?

here is the requirements for a mass license:

Home Improvement Contractor's Licenses (Mass)

If you work on existing residential structures that are one- to four-unit owner-occupied buildings, you also need to register with the state. To do this, contact the State Board of Building Regulations and Standards and ask for an application to register as a Home Improvement Contractor or Subcontractor. There's no exam connected with this registration.

Home Improvement Contractor's registration will cost you $100. But you may not have register if you have a Construction Supervisor license in Massachusetts.

There's also a Guaranty Fund that you may have to contribute to the first time you register. The amount you need to contribute will depend on how many employees your company has:
Number of employees Required fund contribution
0 - 3 $100
4 - 10 $200
1 - 30 $300
More than 30 $500


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## Joewho (Sep 20, 2006)

http://www.nvcontractorsboard.com/C...Contractors License Requirements Document.pdf


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## lmcgrew79 (Apr 25, 2005)

In the state of WV a contractors license is required for any contractor to do work in the state. The idea is that if you can't pass a test of general business knowledge the state assumes you probably shouldnt be in business. Which I believe is a good idea. Any contractor operating without insurance, WC and licensing are we call fly by nighters, and possilby could be around for a long time, but doing work most of us dont want anyways. And by the way, Joewho a limited liablity company hence the llc gives the owner not the customer limited liabilities in the event of being personally sued for actions of the business. Which is what your insurance covers. I dont think you would want them taking your house. Which is one reason we create a business in the first place. Its actually more of a tax structure than anything in which allows "sole propreitors" and or "partnerships", limited liabilites of the a company, just like a corporation, without the company being its own entity for tax purposes. So is a llc much better than just a sole proprietorship? That answer is yes. Is an llc better than a corp? To me that depends on how your business is structured tax wise. Legally a corporation is much harder to run legit than and llc because of the "month meetings" of the president, vice president, secretary, and treasure, which often dont happen, and the fact that a corporation is its own entity just like you are your own entity, and taking money directly from the entity without the form of a paycheck is actually call stealing. So read up and make your decisions wise. Sorry for the long post.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Joewho said:


> You have to have it in every state because it's Federal. Not all states require a business license per se.


Banks do to open a business account, Insurance companies do for WC, States do for local taxes and exempt where applicable. If you get caught on a worksite here in Florida for instance, without WC or exempt of, it's 1500 per person and a stop work order is issued. May not be fair to some but... it's the way.  Yes you can get an fein with your SS, but it stops there without a license and a company. We actually have a cert here, but it's a simple 25.00 a year "yes I paint" cert.


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

After reading this thread and posting it to I went to the website and call the state of IL and ask about a license, I start business 15 yrs ago so maybe something has changed  Still no license required for painters in IL. 

I have had my business bank account thru Bank One (Now Chase) since April of 1992, WC thru my insurance carrier, I have a EIN number I use for taxes, so I am legit or not? In IL I guess I am.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Are you paying your county/city each year for the little cert that is supposed to hang on your wall that says business registration certificate? If not, you really aren't a business, and aren't legit no matter what you think otherwise. Some states require different things, but ALL require you to register a business to do business.... even overseas. I am pretty sure most people on this thread are talking about a specific "painting" cert... which most states don't have... but all have a business license.


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## RCPainting (Jan 29, 2006)

Utah Requirements for Painting Contractor License
50 question Legal test
40 question Trade test
Insurance
FEIN
2 years W2 to show experience
$105 to Lein recovery fund
$ 200 application fee
Workmans Comp
Affadavit claiming no bankruptcy or convictions.
8 hours cont.ed every year.

Job sites are inspected regulaly. State website allows anyone to verify a license and see citations.
City and county business license as well.

Every GC requires copies of insurance, license and workman comp.
Not too many hacks here!


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

Here in Michigan they have a license for painting you have to take test, have ins. and WC if you have employees, But they also say you can do painting as long as the price doesn't go over $600.00 per job. As for plaster and drywall trades there is no license, but for everything else there is. You can take tests for each trade you do or you can take the builders test and do eveything but Electrical and Plumbing, HVAC, these are separate license you need to take tests in each of these trades.
The only thing here is if you do a job and the people don't pay you then if you take them to court the judge will only award $600.00 to you. But that is why we see so many auto workers get laid off and they jump right into painting, drywall, plastering, and they fly under the the laws. but we have these TV reporters getting involed lately and they are putting these rip off artist on TV so everyone can see them. the only thing here is that when these guys get busted for ripping some one off they change the name of business and they start right back up. The State of Michigan just looks the other way, this has gone on for years here. And from what I have read it aint gonna change.


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

If you wish to think I am not legit, go right ahead. but after 15 years if theres some agency here in IL that wishes to tell me I am doing it wrong I will make it right.

I have talked to many of the towns I have work in (at homeonwers request) and there is no license / bonding required to do residential re paints, certainly if I were to do a large commecial job I would expect to file some type of paper work with that village to met there bonding requirements.


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## KellyPainting (May 30, 2006)

So you've been in business for 15 years.... have your insurances and pay taxes....... and some agency that wants more money out of you wants to call you non-legit...well I say.....



http://www.contractortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5208&stc=1&d=1176568136
wG2vjLkuWJsCvIVd2IiaM3fD0wm9.jpg


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## farrellpainting (Feb 24, 2007)

RCPainting said:


> Utah Requirements for Painting Contractor License
> 50 question Legal test
> 40 question Trade test
> Insurance
> ...


N.Y. could use a course from Utah!

It's good to hear that at least one state in this country has their s**t straight!


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Mak.... hit this www.chicityclerk.com/licenses/business.html


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

Brushslingers said:


> Mak.... hit this www.chicityclerk.com/licenses/business.html


No listing for paint contractors, and that is for people who would have a address in the city limits. I have not lived in the city since I was 17. Wouldn't go back either 

Closest I saw on the page was this:
Home Repair
*License Information*

A Home Repair License is required for any business that offers to fix, alter, convert, or improve any 1-6 unit residential property. 
*Fee:* $250 
*Municipal Code Reference:* 4-204 
*Inspections:* Zoning


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## THINKPAINTING (Feb 24, 2007)

KellyPainting said:


> I live in Mass. We do not have to get a license.
> If we choose we can send $200.00 to some government agency and get a piece of paper in the mail.There is no test, no qualifications... just send money. I do not have a license...what I do have is insurance, bank account.. and a steady business built on references. I can get my dog a license tomorrow if I wish, but what will it prove.
> 
> In my short time in business (only 2 years) I have been asked for proof of insurance once..other than that, I am never asked for anything. I have never even given a page of references.. just rattled off a few names here and there..(Did I mention Bob..from Bob's discount furniture?..ya..I did his house). maybe because I don't work for people who have never heard of me yet.
> ...


Bob's discount furniture......I hate those commericals:w00t:


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

MakDeco said:


> No listing for paint contractors, and that is for people who would have a address in the city limits. I have not lived in the city since I was 17. Wouldn't go back either
> 
> Closest I saw on the page was this:
> Home Repair
> ...


What do you think painting is?


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

Brushslingers said:


> What do you think painting is?


I suppose you can consider it improving? altering I suppose, re paints are using by choice more or less. I can see exteriors to maintain siding for sure. Any ways doesn't apply to me I am not in Chicago... My little town of 5k people doesn't require a cert. for me to hang on the wall.. just another way for big brother to collect more taxes...


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

As you wish, I do hope that big brother doesn't find you then. If you do not have a business lisence however, you are not a business... glad you made it 15 yrs.


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