# My First Liability Claim



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

After paying liability insurance premiums for over twenty years, I’ve finally had a claim filed against me. 

I’ve done undermount sink reattachments at least 50 times over the last 8 years without incident and this was a typical job. The original installer smeared polyester on stone scraps then bridged the sink flange and stone bottom to hold the sink. Non-mechanical fastening like this fails anywhere between 6 months and 6 years later. 

Often the sink is completely detached, but I had to drive a scraper into the silicone between the stone and sink flange to get this one to let go. The stainless steel sink, which probably weighed less than 4lbs., broke the CPVC water supply line behind the cabinet and inside the wall on its way down.

It is amazing how instantly focused one becomes with water blasting into the cabinet and onto the kitchen floor. I tried to stem the flow with my hands while instructing the homeowner to turn off the main shutoff. A computer geek type, he had no clue where it was located. I abandoned my post and ran to the side of the house, turned the valve, only to hear the homeowner shout that the water was still coming. In hindsight, I should have just broken or cut the plastic pipe and had the water pump harmlessly onto the lawn and a $1.50 fix. Instead, I ran to my truck, grabbed a monkey wrench, and turned off the water at the curb box. If more than 8 minutes elapsed between the break and shutoff, I’d be amazed, although with water gushing, 8 minutes feels like an eternity.

I returned to the kitchen to find about an inch of water covering the tile floor and wicking its way to the wood floor in the dining room. I commandeered the homeowner’s push broom and swept it through the kitchen garage door where it ran harmlessly to the driveway. I finished rehanging the sink mechanically, told the homeowner “No charge”, and to call a plumber in the morning. Although I’m a licensed Florida building contractor, reattaching a sink is considered maintenance and doesn’t require a license or permit, not so repairing broken supply lines inside walls.

Several days later I received a certified letter from the homeowner’s insurance company stating their intentions to subrogate their expenses on his claim to my insurance company. I immediately contacted my insurance company to see how they wanted to handle the situation. They didn’t seem interested in attending the meeting offered by the homeowner’s insurance company, nor the documentation I had substantiating the repeated failure of CPVC pipe in Florida. (Pipes have broken from simply turning a shutoff valve.) Or in forensic testing of the piece of CPVC I absconded with:

(See picture below.)

The failed CPVC is on the top, new CPVC on the bottom. Note the color difference. 

My insurance lady told me they’d probably just settle; it was less expensive than proving the truth. When she told me they wouldn’t cancel my policy for making a claim, she lied, but my agent says he has another company to resume coverage when this policy expires. I wonder if my premiums will rise?

Now I find and test the main shutoff valve on my sink reattachment jobs before beginning any work.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/plumbers-warn-of-cpvc-piping-problems_20151105190735671


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

That sucks.

I wouldn't even mention the whole part of cpvc and it's failures though when telling the story. Makes it sound like you're just trying to shift blame from yourself. It's why you have liability insurance.

I know one guy who had a pretty big claim, his premiums did go up but not anything that was crippling. Insurance is the only business that elects not to do business with someone once their product is used. Kind of bull**** if you ask me, they should have like 5 year contracts.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> Now I find and test the main shutoff valve on my sink reattachment jobs before beginning any work.


Some times that's not even enough. Might make you feel better ...

Few months ago. Had PlaySkool plastic valves for the vanity sink supply. With a rotted/non existent seat gasket. No way to know that tho. Had worked on another bathroom in the home.  They glued the supplies into the valves. 

Late in the day, getting set up for the next ... figured I'd check out the valve supply situation. Hoping I could quick pull the vanity. Be done for the day and ready to replace valves in the morning. Dual sink vanity. First 3 went swimmingly (pun intended) fine. The last one was right tight to the cabinet and the supply fitting was angled 15 degrees away from the sink. Plastic supply tube was, lets say bent as far as it would bend without kinking.

Shut the valve off, loosened the compression nut. No leaks. Took the nut all the way loose, tugged on the supply line  they glued it. Well so much for getting a jump on things. So just in case, started putting the compression nut back on. Given the the angle of the fitting and maxed supply line, had to reef a bit on it.

Double and triple  it wasn't glued AND the valve  again. OK I got this, a little water, floor was demo'd, second story isn't good but if I can get the nut back on I'm golden. While unsuccessfully trying to get the nut to thread back on. Holy left side sink supply valve batman ... she's got the water heater set to 10,000 degrees.

So i'm thinking thank the good lord it's the hot supply. Water heater, with quarter turn gate vales, is down the hallway. Across the house in the attic. The last bathroom work there was from the heater going bad. Damaging the bathroom below. Quadruple no joy there. 

Had to round up the owner and find out where the second water heater was. Still quicker than getting all the tools rounded up to shut off at the curb. That valve really sucked to get get. Utility shut off out front of the house, truck in the back. Not a small shack either.

At most ten minute nightmare. Maybe 20 gallons. 19 too many. What you gonna do. Do anything long enough chit's gonna happen. Moral of the story 'Always' shut the main water off?

"PlaySkool" valve Pic is from the first bathroom.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Tough lesson to learn. I've had to have main shutoff valves replaced before I did anything, just to make sure I could shut off if I needed to.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Deckhead said:


> That sucks.
> 
> I wouldn't even mention the whole part of cpvc and it's failures though when telling the story. Makes it sound like you're just trying to shift blame from yourself. It's why you have liability insurance.


Deckhand:

I don't have any problem accepting blame when it's fairly due. With its track record in Florida, this pipe could have broken when this guy reached for his dish soap. Had that happened, his homeowners insurance would have really been stuck. They insured a home without testing the easily accessible shutoff, without checking for faulty CPVC, or without checking to see if the homeowner knew where his main shutoff was. 

Instead of being grateful for having a cool head on site, they blame the guy that saved them thousands of dollars.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

That sucks, Joe. I hate when i think about a solution (break the main) afterwards. 

Just my 2 cents, every business is different, but no way in hell i leave there with out getting the plumbing repaired and the water soaked up, baseboards removed, fans going ect... Thats why i like my plumbers 24/7/365 service van.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> Deckhand:
> 
> I don't have any problem accepting blame when it's fairly due. With its track record in Florida, this pipe could have broken when this guy reached for his dish soap. Had that happened, his homeowners insurance would have really been stuck. They insured a home without testing the easily accessible shutoff, without checking for faulty CPVC, or without checking to see if the homeowner knew where his main shutoff was.
> 
> Instead of being grateful for having a cool head on site, they blame the guy that saved them thousands of dollars.


Hey brother, I get it. CPVC is a joke here, and improperly sweated joints are just as bad. I was just saying the way most people not in the business will look at it. The insurance companies are always out to see how little they can pay.

I like pex personally and copper if it's a good plumber.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

This is why you have insurance, you broke the pipe, doesn't matter how brittle it is, you're the straw that broke the camel's back. Suck it up and move on.

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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Kinda ****ty they are canceling you for using them for what you pay them for. Once!


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Kinda ****ty they are canceling you for using them for what you pay them for. Once!


That is really ****ty! Stuff happens and that is why you have insurance. We have only had one claim for a bad pour by a concrete sub that wouldn't replace it. Covered 100% and no rate hike. Small town insurance agent and company so maybe that's why??


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## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

Shut offs are the worse. I was removing back spasm tile in a bathroom a few years back and turned off the sink shut off so I would stop turning the sink on accidentally. The shut off itself leaked that night and destroyed the bathroom ceiling below. 




builddaley.com


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Texas Wax said:


> ...
> 
> "PlaySkool" valve Pic is from the first bathroom.


Never seen a valve like that, except on irrigation lines. It's legal indoors?


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Jaws said:


> That sucks, Joe. I hate when i think about a solution (break the main) afterwards.
> 
> Just my 2 cents, every business is different, but no way in hell i leave there with out getting the plumbing repaired and the water soaked up, baseboards removed, fans going ect... Thats why i like my plumbers 24/7/365 service van.


I hear ya. I got the sink reconnected and probably would have taken my chances with inspection, but it was after 9:00 p.m. when I got the water soaked up and HD was closed and nuthin' on the truck.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Between the fish tank and this---stay away from water.

Tom


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> I hear ya. I got the sink reconnected and probably would have taken my chances with inspection, but it was after 9:00 p.m. when I got the water soaked up and HD was closed and nuthin' on the truck.


Its always something aint it? If it was easy..... well that would be awesome but it doesn't happen much for me :laughing:

I had a water heater warranty deal i wrote about on here last year where i sautered it all up and got it working in the middle of the night for the home owners over the weekend and made my plumber take it out and redo it for liability reasons on Monday. Got to have a licence here too.

I do my own plumbing on our rentals enough to know i absolutely would be better off paying a plumber most of the time with all the trips for ONE MORE  PART i need, yet im considering plumbing our own home myself like a dumby. :laughing:


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

After this you'll always make sure you turn the water off first. Hell even doing siding you should carry a curb key...You just never know 

*Why wouldn't you shut the water off and disconnect the supply lines first if you are removing the sink? *


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> *Why wouldn't you shut the water off and disconnect the supply lines first if you are removing the sink? *


Umm...that would be because I'd done this job 50 times previously without incident and the fact that it's reasonable to believe that a supply line should withstand a 4lb. sink kissing it without failure.


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

I have a meter key in the truck. Most every time I have the meter cover off, turn the valve a bit to see if it will turn, leave the meter key upright in the hole.

Bummer...we all do our work to a level not to use and keep our insurance. Glad its there if needed. Doesn't sound like the worst claim in the world. Hope it works out.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Jaws said:


> im considering plumbing our own home myself like a dumby. :laughing:


Definitely do it, it's really easy. This will get you started:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> Umm...that would be because I'd done this job 50 times previously without incident and the fact that it's reasonable to believe that a supply line should withstand a 4lb. sink kissing it without failure.


I've had a bad joint on a 3/4" copper let go turning a valve. Not my fault, but still my problem. It would be nice if water wasn't so wet, though.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> Umm...that would be because I'd done this job 50 times previously without incident and the fact that it's reasonable to believe that a supply line should withstand a 4lb. sink kissing it without failure.


1 out of 50....If only I had those kind of odds with lottery tickets. I'd start buying them. Live and learn I guess 

The only claim I ever had was 30 years ago. I had a swing stage set up on roof rollers w/outriggers...moving the stage put several tears in the roof covering on the parapet wall...I offered to patch them...he wasn't interested and got a whole new roof out of my insurance 6k at the time. I was extremely new to the business and it left a bad taste in my mouth. From then on I trust no one or nothing....even though I hate them I make good friends with lawyers (yeah I know)


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## Quality5280 (Sep 4, 2016)

Sorry to hear that! 
I almost had a claim filled against me this year too. We run roll off containers and the new guy rolled back into the truck behind him at the landfill. Barely did any damage but he acted like all I had to do to resolve the situation was turn the claim into my insurance company and they would take take care of it 
1200.00 later 











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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Quality5280 said:


> Sorry to hear that!
> I almost had a claim filled against me this year too. We run roll off containers and the new guy rolled back into the truck behind him at the landfill. Barely did any damage but he acted like all I had to do to resolve the situation was turn the claim into my insurance company and they would take take care of it
> 1200.00 later
> 
> ...


Isn't it a crock that you can't use your insurance for what you pay them for, for fear of retribution?


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## Quality5280 (Sep 4, 2016)

Californiadecks said:


> Isn't it crock that you can't use your insurance for what you pay them for, for fear of retribution?




Tell me about it ! I can only imagine what the the claim could of done to us 


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I had a crazy liability claim before.

We finished a roof and got paid. It was inspected by the city and passed. It was inspected by the shingle manufacturer and passed. 

Then like 6 months later, my insurance company sent me a letter saying I owe them a $500 deductible. I called to find out what for and they said this guy made a claim on my insurance for a faulty installation and they paid it on. I freaked out saying how it doesn't make any sense since it passed multiple inspections. I asked them to send me pictures which they did and it was obvious this guy caused various damage to his roof but they sure didn't care. They paid him. I paid the deductible then immediately cancelled my policy with them.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I had a crazy liability claim before.
> 
> We finished a roof and got paid. It was inspected by the city and passed. It was inspected by the shingle manufacturer and passed.
> 
> Then like 6 months later, my insurance company sent me a letter saying I owe them a $500 deductible. I called to find out what for and they said this guy made a claim on my insurance for a faulty installation and they paid it on. I freaked out saying how it doesn't make any sense since it passed multiple inspections. I asked them to send me pictures which they did and it was obvious this guy caused various damage to his roof but they sure didn't care. They paid him. I paid the deductible then immediately cancelled my policy with them.


I would've told them it was a fraudulent claim therefore you paid a clam you shouldn't have, so I don't owe you a deductible. How the hell do they pay a claim without even questioning you?

In order for my customers to make a claim, I have to call my insurance.


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## Quality5280 (Sep 4, 2016)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I had a crazy liability claim before.
> 
> We finished a roof and got paid. It was inspected by the city and passed. It was inspected by the shingle manufacturer and passed.
> 
> Then like 6 months later, my insurance company sent me a letter saying I owe them a $500 deductible. I called to find out what for and they said this guy made a claim on my insurance for a faulty installation and they paid it on. I freaked out saying how it doesn't make any sense since it passed multiple inspections. I asked them to send me pictures which they did and it was obvious this guy caused various damage to his roof but they sure didn't care. They paid him. I paid the deductible then immediately cancelled my policy with them.




It's not like there's 2 sides to a story..
Let's just pay it charge him and move on .


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> Isn't it a crock that you can't use your insurance for what you pay them for, for fear of retribution?


And that's one reason why I despise ins companies - all of them.

Our nations #1 scam.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> And that's one reason why I despise ins companies - all of them.
> 
> Our nations #1 scam.


In most cases it cost more to insure something than the thing you are insuring.

That makes sense I loathe insurance companies, it was in my first reply.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

December 25, 2016

Joseph Corlett, LLC
3239 Woodberry Lane
Sarasota, Florida 34231

Cannon Cochran Management Services, Inc.
2600 Lake Lucien Drive
Suite 225
Maitland, Florida 32751
Attn: Heather Thompson-Bass
Claim Consultant
Re: CCMSI Claim 16F61G698026

Dear Ms. Thompson-Bass:

In your letter of December 15, 2016, you state your “…desire to thoroughly investigate every claim that is reported to us...”. Unfortunately, this statement is as true as your company’s assertion that Frank Crum Insurance would not drop me as a policyholder for making a claim.

Had you genuinely been interested in thoroughly investigating the claim, you would have taken my offer to have the sample of the failed CPVC pipe I took from the jobsite tested in a forensic laboratory. Disregarding my advice, you made a business decision that the cost of the testing and contesting the claim was not worth the risk and now want me to pay a $500.00 deductible. You get all the authority and I get all the responsibility.

I’m a reasonable and fair man and I pay the debts to which I’m contractually obligated, so I’m making you the following offer:

1. Drop your claim for the $500.00 and we will consider this matter closed. Judging by your previous skills at risk/reward analysis, this, in the vernacular, would be called a “no brainer”.

2. I will have the CPVC pipe lab tested at my expense. If the lab determines that the CPVC was not faulty, I will pay you $500.00 immediately. If the lab determines the CPVC is faulty, you will waive the $500.00 deductible and reimburse me for any reasonable expenses.

I look forward to hearing from you and resolving this matter.

Sincerely, 

Joseph Corlett

Owner
Joseph Corlett, LLC


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> December 25, 2016
> 
> Joseph Corlett, LLC
> 3239 Woodberry Lane
> ...


My god man you screwed up and can get off the hook for 500 bucks, just pony up
Kowboy!


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

I understand being unhappy with the situation. The reality is that you are the one responsible for the pipe breaking. Sure, it could have been anyone who touched the pipe wrong, but in this case it was you.

You can have the CPVC tested. It doesn't matter how the test turns out. All CPVC turns brittle over the years. It is a crap product. You are still the one who broke it.

Your insurance company doesn't care. They pay the claim and move on. If you don't pay the deductible, they will drop you.

It's time to move on. 

Happy Holidays.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

$500 is pretty cheap considering. No lab test can let you off the hook. 

A contractor friend told me this about insurance companies, can't say if it's true or not but they need to pay out X amount of claims per year or run the risk of big government sniffing around as to why they aren't.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Quality5280 said:


> Sorry to hear that!
> I almost had a claim filled against me this year too. We run roll off containers and the new guy rolled back into the truck behind him at the landfill. Barely did any damage but he acted like all I had to do to resolve the situation was turn the claim into my insurance company and they would take take care of it
> 1200.00 later
> 
> ...


Your insurance company covered damage that occurred on private property?


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## Bull Trout (Dec 6, 2016)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I had a crazy liability claim before.
> 
> We finished a roof and got paid. It was inspected by the city and passed. It was inspected by the shingle manufacturer and passed.
> 
> Then like 6 months later, my insurance company sent me a letter saying I owe them a $500 deductible. I called to find out what for and they said this guy made a claim on my insurance for a faulty installation and they paid it on. I freaked out saying how it doesn't make any sense since it passed multiple inspections. I asked them to send me pictures which they did and it was obvious this guy caused various damage to his roof but they sure didn't care. They paid him. I paid the deductible then immediately cancelled my policy with them.


I dont know what they call it, but you can set it up where you have to be looped in on all claims and payouts, the one time I had to use GL I was able to discuss with the insurance companies lawyer and had to sign off on the plan, a BS claim that got settled for 5% of original claim, but somehow it felt better at least being part of the discussion and not just told about it afterwards. I felt okay with the settlement because I knew why it was settled, and was able to provide information that reduced the settlement amount. It could have been the same result but I was told about it afterwards and I probably would be upset with the results.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

builditguy said:


> All CPVC turns brittle over the years. It is a crap product. You are still the one who broke it.


The question is fault, and gradations of fault. Was the pipe such that it would break with ordinary care? If I go to hang a picture on the wall, and the drywall falls off, do I pay to have it all drywalled and painted?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> The question is fault, and gradations of fault. Was the pipe such that it would break with ordinary care? If I go to hang a picture on the wall, and the drywall falls off, do I pay to have it all drywalled and painted?


Typically the last person to touch it is the one left holding the bag... at a minimum, they're the first to get the stink eye as it was "fine" before you touched it...


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

The pipe was fine before but the real problem was not immediately shutting the water supply off. No way around that.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

KAP said:


> Typically the last person to touch it is the one left holding the bag... at a minimum, they're the first to get the stink eye as it was "fine" before you touched it...


Maybe. OTOH, if something breaks because it was substandard...


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> Maybe. OTOH, if something breaks because it was substandard...


Going to be hard to prove something was sub-standard years later... but it's going to be easy to prove it went south after you touched it... if you don't want the responsibility, don't touch it... if you're going to take the risk without getting it signed-off on you have only one place to point that finger unfortunately, especially if it's not your specialty...


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

So it's the mop woman's fault for breaking the CPVC by touching it with a mop? It's the homeowner's fault when simply shutting off a shutoff valve breaks CPVC? All documented cases in Florida; see my previous link.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

KAP said:


> Going to be hard to prove something was sub-standard years later...


I'll just mention that if these were high pressure lines that degraded and killed someone, the manufacturer and homeowner would be responsible for the loss of life. 

Responsibility doesn't change just because nobody was killed.


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## Jchresidential (Dec 27, 2016)

Insurance company's are a joke,all they want is more money for every little thing you need ,ask ,or have to have. They got us by the sack lol .I would have paid the deductible for 500 or fix it my self.truthfully I would of fixed it just to see it was fixed.but just a suggestion to you carry some half inch and three qrtr shark bite shut off in case that happens again. And if it hits the fan again just slap em on until you can fix the prob.anyone can use a shark bite even the blind lol.no offense to the blind


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

I just mailed my pipe sample to Atlanta for forensic testing. $255.00, or just over one percent of the claim they paid. I'll keep you posted in a few weeks.


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

It's CPVC. It's old CPVC. It's crap. It gets brittle and breaks.

What are you wanting to find out? 

What is your goal. I can almost guarantee your insurance company does not care. And, they already know it. I'm sure it's not the first claim they've had with broken plumbing pipes.

At some point you are going to realize your $500 deductible payment just went up to $755.00.

Don't read anything into the tone of this post. I'm not being sarcastic, or mean spirited. I really want to know what you expect to accomplish.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

builditguy said:


> It's CPVC. It's old CPVC. It's crap. It gets brittle and breaks.
> 
> What are you wanting to find out?
> 
> ...


He basically paid extra money to entertain us.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> He basically paid extra money to entertain us.


Didn't he just get sued Or something?


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> December 25, 2016
> 
> Joseph Corlett, LLC
> 3239 Woodberry Lane
> ...


You seem to like throwing names on the Internet. 

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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> I just mailed my pipe sample to Atlanta for forensic testing. $255.00, or just over one percent of the claim they paid. I'll keep you posted in a few weeks.


Kowboy, how are you going to prove the pipe sample came from that jobsite months later? I assume the repairs have already been made and therefore all you have is a piece of pipe you've submitted to be tested FOUR MONTHS after it happened... The insurance company certainly isn't going to reimburse you the $255.00, which puts you more than half-way to the deductible that you are upset about having to pay... 

IMHO, you're spending time and actual dollars chasing after pennies as they already paid the claim correct?

You had insurance for this type of situation, and they are paying... you have a deductible as part of that agreement... you've said yourself you have documentation that CVPC has been failing in Florida and you admitted to driving a scraper into the silicone and here it is, the SUBSEQUENT DAMAGE AFTER you did so without turning the water off before hand even though you said you've done it 50 or so times over 8 years...

I guess I'm a little lost as to what you think should have been done here... were you expecting the HO to pick up the tab/deductible on THEIR policy for something that happened while you were working? This is why we HAVE insurance... the simple fact is, brittle or defective CPVC or not, it was whole before you got there and damaged after you touched it... why would you expect the HO's insurance policy to take the hit and the HO pay THEIR deductible for damage you caused?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I'll bet somewhere that he signed when he signed his policy agreement, it says the insurance company has sole discretion as to whether or not they settle. Regardless If the policyholder believes it to be a winnable case or not.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

This guy likes fighting things on principal mote than me.

I completed a roof. Before payment it was inspected by both the city and manufacturer. Long story short, a few months later my insurance company sent me a bill for $500. They paid a cliam he filed on my insurance saying the roof was defective and showed pictures that made it clear he or someone else vandalized the roof. 

After discussions with my attorney, i paid the $500 and walked away from the insurance company. 

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## Jchresidential (Dec 27, 2016)

Should have put the big boy pants on and just fixed the pipe man. All the time and energy spent on a couple fitting and a clean up:blink: and the loss of a customer for leaving them with the mess. **** happens no doubt but is,or was it worth the time and fight? I wouldn't have been for me. It's only a mistake if you leave it your fault or not.that's what keeps the jobs lined up and phone ringing. Insurance to me is just a bunch of bull to make people feel like they are covered while we work at there place.meen while it doesn't cover **** and in the end you are responsible for it anyway. U need to think of insurance as a last resort incase of theft,terrorism, vandalism, or major accident like for instance guys are cutting whatever in front of bunch of windows like retards and a chuck kicks off and Flys through a fancy bf Anderson window.than the 500 buck for deductible doesn't sound to bad when you need a 1500 ,3000 k window and trim,labor ect...


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

KAP said:


> Kowboy, how are you going to prove the pipe sample came from that jobsite months later?


The background granite in my picture of the tested CPVC matches the customer's granite countertop exactly. So you have to believe that the pictured CPVC was Photoshopped over a picture of their counter or that I broke into their home with CPVC scrap to take the picture, or that I took a picture of the failed CPVC on site immediately. You pick.

In these types of situations, like car accidents, there may be blame to go around. I don't mind paying for my actual responsibilities, but I'm not inclined to subsidize insurance companies that underwrite homes with faulty CPVC and underwrite without testing above-ground shutoffs, and try to subrogate their losses on to me and my insurance company.

If I have to report that the CPVC was not faulty here in a week or so, it won't embarrass me in the least. $255.00 for peace of mind is mighty cheap to me. More importantly, it sends a message to the insurance companies that there are still a few guys out there that won't sit up and beg at their behest like a lapdog.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> The background granite in my picture of the tested CPVC matches the customer's granite countertop exactly. So you have to believe that the pictured CPVC was Photoshopped over a picture of their counter or that I broke into their home with CPVC scrap to take the picture, or that I took a picture of the failed CPVC on site immediately. You pick.
> 
> In these types of situations, like car accidents, there may be blame to go around. I don't mind paying for my actual responsibilities, but I'm not inclined to subsidize insurance companies that underwrite homes with faulty CPVC and underwrite without testing above-ground shutoffs, and try to subrogate their losses on to me and my insurance company.
> 
> If I have to report that the CPVC was not faulty here in a week or so, it won't embarrass me in the least. $255.00 for peace of mind is mighty cheap to me. More importantly, it sends a message to the insurance companies that there are still a few guys out there that won't sit up and beg at their behest like a lapdog.


Your insurance company didn't go to your job-site to inspect if there was faulty CPVC before insuring you... 

My point is even if it comes back that the CPVC was faulty, it's not going to change the outcome of your insurance company paying here because it was not only whole before you touched it up to that point, but you didn't turn off the water before doing so which is what caused the worst part of the claim (which means you're paying the deductible NO MATTER WHAT)... your actual responsibility is the deductible you're paying while your insurance company has already paid their responsibility... the fact that they did in the THOUSANDS through another insurance company should already be an indication to you that they know it's not defensible... while it may be your first fail in 50 disconnect/re-connects you might want to consider they've seen this story before... I know it sucks but simply put, none of it happened without the person who touched it... 

In any case, it's a little confusing as to why you think the owner should have ANY responsibility in this...


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

KAP:

It's always a great idea to read the entire thread before commenting. Had you done so, you would have known that CPVC in Florida has failed from the outrageous act of TURNING OFF A SHUTOFF VALVE. Now let's hear you argue that somehow, a homeowner should not have had the temerity to actually put a valve to its proper use. I mean hey, after all, the pipes and valve were fine until he touched it, right?

By the way, had I followed your advice and turned off the shutoff in advance, it would have done no good. As I stated previously and you failed to comprehend, the existing above grade shutoff valve didn't work.

Had you read the entire thread, you would have known that I have no problem paying for the part of the claim for which I'm contractually obligated. The Kowboy doesn't expect something for nothing or an exception to be made for him.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

You have no case. You are supposed to be the guy people call when their substandard construction is failing. If they had a perfectly built home you wouldn't be there. 

I cut a pipe in an apartment once. It was in an unbelievable location. It was a place where a pipe should not be. That didn't matter. The guy who put it there was long gone and I was standing in the waterfall with my saw. I fixed the damage on my dime and now assume pipes are hiding everywhere. I still work for the customer all the time. 

I like to think it was not my fault. But if it wasn't my fault I have no explanation for why I now cut so much more cautiously. I have a feeling you will release sinks more cautiously in the future as well. If it's not to late I would cancel your scientists. It really doesn't matter what they find. Either a good pipe broke when you dropped a sink on it or a bad pipe broke when you dropped a sink on it. Either way, you dropped a sink on it.


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## MonsieurBon (Feb 4, 2016)

Kowboy said:


> The background granite in my picture of the tested CPVC matches the customer's granite countertop exactly. So you have to believe that the pictured CPVC was Photoshopped over a picture of their counter or that I broke into their home with CPVC scrap to take the picture, or that I took a picture of the failed CPVC on site immediately. You pick.
> 
> In these types of situations, like car accidents, there may be blame to go around. I don't mind paying for my actual responsibilities, but I'm not inclined to subsidize insurance companies that underwrite homes with faulty CPVC and underwrite without testing above-ground shutoffs, and try to subrogate their losses on to me and my insurance company.
> 
> If I have to report that the CPVC was not faulty here in a week or so, it won't embarrass me in the least. $255.00 for peace of mind is mighty cheap to me. More importantly, it sends a message to the insurance companies that there are still a few guys out there that won't sit up and beg at their behest like a lapdog.


The home inspectors I've worked with won't touch shutoffs in not new homes. They said the risk of them leaking is too high to test them. They simply check that they exist.

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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

I will admit, now, I'm actually curious as to what the testing company will say.

It won't make any difference to your insurance company, but I am curious.

We all know CPVC becomes brittle over time, but does that mean that it is a defective product? Or had it just lived it's life span?

If I walk on shingles that are 30 years old, and damage them, is it because the shingles became brittle over time or because they were defective when they were new?

While I think you are wasting your time and money. I look forward to hearing the results.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

MonsieurBon said:


> The home inspectors I've worked with won't touch shutoffs in not new homes. They said the risk of them leaking is too high to test them. They simply check that they exist.


But if you are working on the plumbing it's a risk you have to assume. It's one of the reasons plumbers charge what they do.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

RangoWA said:


> But if you are working on the plumbing it's a risk you have to assume. It's one of the reasons plumbers charge what they do.


In regards to what plumbers charge, we are in the middle of a remodel, all the pipes are open (metal not PVC), no fixtures in the way. Had a plumbing company come over and quote us $800 to snake out the 3 pipes we had. And that was a discount ! Needless to say, we rented a snake and cleaned out the pipes for $50.00. 

On the liability issue, I was sued by the lawyer of the landscape contractor on a large job, because they wanted to "spread the pain" to anyone that happened to be on the site during construction. The landscape contractor really pissed off a VP of Merrill Lynch, so the VP sued him for the entire cost of the landscape job. The VP and his wife were happy with what my crew did, but we got caught up in the lawsuit anyway. 

Anyway, the plumber on the job sent it to his insurance, I decided to fight this thing. The cost of my lawyer and all the fees amounted to every penny of profit I made from this landscape contractor over the last two and a half years. So basically, I worked with this contractor for over two years for free. 

Who knows what it would have cost if I just turned it all over to my insurance company, and, then have this on my record along with increases in premiums.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

I'm sure not going to defend every practice out there, I think our laws are designed primarily to put money in lawyer's pockets. I can't say what something should cost but if a pipe broke while snaking the lines the plumber would have to fix it. A leak may not be obvious until damage was done, which is usually the case.

Your story is horrible. If someone cheats me out of $10 I want them to die.

Now let's get on to what sparkies charge....


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

This thread hurts my head.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Inner10 said:


> This thread hurts my head.


There's a cure for that.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

RangoWA said:


> There's a cure for that.


9mm?


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Inner10 said:


> 9mm?


That's a permanent cure for a temporary problem.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

RangoWA said:


> Now let's get on to what sparkies charge....


Not near enough 

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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> KAP:
> 
> It's always a great idea to read the entire thread before commenting. Had you done so, you would have known that CPVC in Florida has failed from the outrageous act of TURNING OFF A SHUTOFF VALVE. Now let's hear you argue that somehow, a homeowner should not have had the temerity to actually put a valve to its proper use. I mean hey, after all, the pipes and valve were fine until he touched it, right?
> 
> ...


Kowboy, go back and read your own responses... this whole thread has been about you blaming everyone else for the issue... EXCEPT the guy who caused the damage... it's the HO's insurance companies fault, it's the CVPC's fault, it's the HO's fault for not knowing where the shut-off valve is, etc... whether you personally knew in advance or not about the CPVC issue while having worked on 50+ sinks before is irrelevant... it's WHY you have insurance... to protect from situations that can go wrong... you got away with causing THOUSANDS of dollars of damage, never mind the inconvenience to the HO, and only had to pay a $500 deductible... if you weren't at fault in your own mind, why "no charge" and if it was the HO's fault for not knowing where the shut-off was (as opposed to you) why not charge him EXTRA?...

You want the HO's insurance company to have made sure that he HO knew where the shut-off valve was before insuring them but you're OK with your insurance company insuring you when you went into the HO's home and didn't know where it was while actively working on what's connected to it... you state in one post that the *"pipe could have broken when this guy reached for his dish soap" *because it's so brittle (and that the HO's insurance policy would REALLY be on the hook because of the HO's actions) and then in another how it should be able to handle a 4lb. sink kissing it after YOU touched it and things went awry but now want to dispute it... 

The FACT is it is still acceptable under Code, it still has a 10-year warranty and it DIDN'T fail UNTIL you came in contact with it... it's such a prevalent problem you don't think the insurance company has seen this play out before and STILL paid even considering all your arguments?

You can waste as much time and money on this as you want, but in all your efforts to try to erase the fact that it was fine UNTIL you touched it, you did not ascertain where the shut-off valve was BEFORE touching it, it's simply not going to change the outcome... you LITERALLY want the HO's insurance company to cover this (and thereby the HO having to pay HIS deductible and potentially losing his insurance and rates increased) for a problem that originated with and by your own words, was exacerbated by you...

How does that make ANY sense?...

It sucks... we all can sympathize... but if you don't want to accept blame for the things that CAN happen during an install, then you should contract that part out to someone who does know all the ramifications of doing so...


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## MonsieurBon (Feb 4, 2016)

RangoWA said:


> But if you are working on the plumbing it's a risk you have to assume. It's one of the reasons plumbers charge what they do.


My comment was specifically about OP's statement that an insurance company shouldn't insure a house with certain shutoff valves. My point being they really seem uninterested in checking every valve's manufacturer and date. Probably cheaper to payout an occasional claim than pay out for 1/10 of valves leaking during an inspection and having to pay out on all of those.

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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

MonsieurBon said:


> My comment was specifically about OP's statement that an insurance company shouldn't insure a house with certain shutoff valves. My point being they really seem uninterested in checking every valve's manufacturer and date. Probably cheaper to payout an occasional claim than pay out for 1/10 of valves leaking during an inspection and having to pay out on all of those.


Well you have to wonder sometimes why the dots never get connected in large firms. Like one side doesn't communicate with the other.

I found a bubble on the rubber hose of my washing machine when I bought a new one. Ran to HD and bought braided lines. Then an insurance guy told me that's a major claim and they had a mountain of busted rubber lines. I think most people would gladly pony up for better lines if they knew. I sure never thought of it. They could provide a HO with some basic tips like that and likely save a bundle.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

RangoWA said:


> Well you have to wonder sometimes why the dots never get connected in large firms. Like one side doesn't communicate with the other.
> 
> 
> 
> I found a bubble on the rubber hose of my washing machine when I bought a new one. Ran to HD and bought braided lines. Then an insurance guy told me that's a major claim and they had a mountain of busted rubber lines. I think most people would gladly pony up for better lines if they knew. I sure never thought of it. They could provide a HO with some basic tips like that and likely save a bundle.




It's my opinion contractors should get insurance discounts for their private homes. I can't tell you all the times I fixed the damage from what would normally be a claim.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> It's my opinion contractors should get insurance discounts for their private homes. I can't tell you all the times I fixed the damage from what would normally be a claim.


Yeah, but then they'd find a way to double your deductible or make you absorb more of the cost of a claim... insurance companies ain't giving up a dime...


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

KAP said:


> Yeah, but then they'd find a way to double your deductible or make you absorb more of the cost of a claim... insurance companies ain't giving up a dime...


I think the industry is designed more to collect money and spend it here and there and preventive maintenance isn't even on their radar.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

RangoWA said:


> I'm sure not going to defend every practice out there, I think our laws are designed primarily to put money in lawyer's pockets. I can't say what something should cost but if a pipe broke while snaking the lines the plumber would have to fix it. A leak may not be obvious until damage was done, which is usually the case.
> 
> Your story is horrible. If someone cheats me out of $10 I want them to die.
> 
> Now let's get on to what sparkies charge....


I obviously don't charge enough


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## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

On one of my first bathroom remodels I was replacing the backsplash and the shower tile and keeping everything else. I turned off the taps under the sink to remove the backsplash tiles. One of the shutoffs leaked that night and damaged the ceiling below. Now my standard practice with bathroom remodels is cap the lines and replace the shut offs at the end of the job if they are being touched at all. Cheap insurance vs the cost to fix the ceiling 


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## MonsieurBon (Feb 4, 2016)

My mom would love this thread. She got bitten by a dog recently and is trying to get Medicare to subrogate the $1500 ER claim to the insurance of the guy whose dog bit her, and admitted liability, and took her to the hospital. She keeps calling Medicare and they're like "for real? we don't care. we already paid," but she's indignant that taxpayers are paying for what this guy's insurance should cover.


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## P42003 (Jun 15, 2016)

cwatbay said:


> In regards to what plumbers charge...
> 
> quote us $800...we rented a snake and cleaned out the pipes for $50.00.


Well, I guess that proves all plumbers overcharge.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

That sucks man, but no need for you to do anything because the insurance companies are duking it out, not you. They will probably settle and move on. It's life, don't worry. It happens. If you don't want it on your record, offer to pay out 0f pocket for the damage and have the customer withdraw the claim.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

madrina said:


> That sucks man, but no need for you to do anything because the insurance companies are duking it out, not you. They will probably settle and move on. It's life, don't worry. It happens. *If you don't want it on your record, offer to pay out 0f pocket for the damage and have the customer withdraw the claim.*


Don't know if you saw this from earlier in the thread... be a pretty expensive alternative...


Kowboy said:


> I just mailed my pipe sample to Atlanta for forensic testing. *$255.00, or just over one percent of the claim* *they paid.* I'll keep you posted in a few weeks.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

My sample couldn't even survive the lowest test setting. That may be a large clue right there:

Joe,

I have some news about the pipe that you sent. When our machine shop was in the process of chucking it in the lathe to machine it to the proper tensile size the pipe cracked from the lowest pressure setting for holding the sample in the lathe. I have a picture attached in this email, the crack goes down almost half of the pipe and there is also another hairline crack on the opposite it that is probably a quarter of the way down the pipe. Bad news is, this has probably compromised any other type of testing, like a crush test. We looked into doing a hardness test but there is no data within the ASTM specification for this pipe to compare it to. Do you have any suggestions of what type of data you would like?

Thank you,

Ashley Clay Andrews
Mechanical Testing of Polymers
Applied Technical Services, Inc.
1049 Triad Court
Marietta, GA 30062


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Tensile size? Lathe?


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Don't see how this will help your case. You still broke it.

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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Kowboy said:


> My sample couldn't even survive the lowest test setting. That may be a large clue right there:
> 
> Joe,
> 
> ...


Sounds like you really messed that pipe up when you dropped the sink on it. Now they can't even do tests on it.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Besides his beef isn't with the insurance company, it's with the product. You'd need to find a product liability lawyer that would take that case.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Joe, I like you. I don't think we see eye-to-eye on much about the way of going about business but I think you are an absolute freaking riot in how you are a hound to make your point. Your tenacity is fantastic.

Now for my main question... When the hell do you work? You got a lot of irons in the fire that don't pay anything and take months to see a result just to make a point.

We need to hook up for lunch. Your situations are superior to any entertainment on any network out there.

2 weeks and I'll have some time, you good then?


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Umm...we don't know how to test this. We accepted your money, so if you have any idea what kind of test we could do, that'd be great. 


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

KAP said:


> Yeah, but then they'd find a way to double your deductible or make you absorb more of the cost of a claim... insurance companies ain't giving up a dime...



and thats why there are public adjusters. but people are uneducated about stuff like that.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Deckhead said:


> Joe, I like you. I don't think we see eye-to-eye on much about the way of going about business but I think you are an absolute freaking riot in how you are a hound to make your point. Your tenacity is fantastic.
> 
> Now for my main question... When the hell do you work? You got a lot of irons in the fire that don't pay anything and take months to see a result just to make a point.
> 
> ...


Deckhead:

I do appreciate that. I don't take myself or my situations too seriously. As a columnist, I'm always looking for material to write about; sometimes that material is self-provided. Judging by the amount of views I get here, others seem to find my situations entertaining as well. Contractor Talk should put me on retainer.

As for my tenacity, my wife of 35 years tells our friends that "he just wore me down" until she married me.:laughing: Tenacity makes me a hell of a fisherman too, which I need to do more often.

Contact me when you've got the time and we'll have lunch or a beer or both.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

If it broke chucking it up, you can have your expert come in to court and just crumble it one handed, and try to crumble a new one that's meeting standards.

Sometimes a demonstration is better than data. People understand what fragile means...


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

But shutting the water off quickly or prior to would have saved the day. I don't see a way around it.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I know we keep beating this dead horse...

But in court how would you respond when they ask you if you broke the pipe?

I'm guessing you respond with CPVC is a ticking time bomb and everyone knows it, here are my test results.

Then what happens when they say since you knew that the CPVC was a ticking time bomb why didn't you shut off the water before working on it?

I dunno, maybe I'm just fvcked in the head, like really right fvcked; and I got nothing against you personally, I really don't....But you're guilty as freaking sin here, Johnnie Cochran and Robert Shapiro couldn't get you your 500 bucks back.

Is this all for a good story?


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Inner10 said:


> I know we keep beating this dead horse...
> 
> But in court how would you respond when they ask you if you broke the pipe?
> 
> ...


I agree. He would stand a better chance by just lying and saying he has never been to that house and never met that customer.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Kowboy said:


> Deckhead:
> 
> I do appreciate that. I don't take myself or my situations too seriously. As a columnist, I'm always looking for material to write about; sometimes that material is self-provided. Judging by the amount of views I get here, others seem to find my situations entertaining as well. Contractor Talk should put me on retainer.
> 
> ...


Where is the column? Is this why you have been living such a high drama life these days. Between this, the law suite and the incident at the commercial job, you should be able to have something to talk about for a while.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

FrankSmith said:


> *Where is the column? * Is this why you have been living such a high drama life these days. Between this, the law suite and the incident at the commercial job, you should be able to have something to talk about for a while.


The columns is from his other thread... *"I'm Getting Sued..." * regarding the countertop repair...

http://www.contractortalk.com/f52/im-getting-sued-316066/index4/#post5535498

He references it in post #67...





Kowboy said:


> Same thing here.
> 
> *For the more technical version of events go here:*
> http://www.countertopiq.com/2017/01/06/im-being-sued/


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> Deckhead:
> 
> I do appreciate that. I don't take myself or my situations too seriously. As a columnist, I'm always looking for material to write about; sometimes that material is self-provided. Judging by the amount of views I get here, others seem to find my situations entertaining as well. Contractor Talk should put me on retainer.
> 
> ...


Now with fishing you will have my undivided attention... Work, meh it'll be kind of divided if it doesn't have to do with wood:laughing:


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

TxElectrician said:


> Don't see how this will help your case. You still broke it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


TxElectrician:

So it's the cleaning woman's fault that the CPVC broke because she touched it with a mop? It's the homeowner's fault because the CPVC broke when he turned off the shutoff valve? Both documented in Florida?

Or is it reasonable to believe that products specified to meet ASTM standards should withstand a glance from a mop, a turn of a valve, and a kiss from a 4lb. stainless steel sink without failure?


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> TxElectrician:
> 
> So it's the cleaning woman's fault that the CPVC broke because she touched it with a mop? It's the homeowner's fault because the CPVC broke when he turned off the shutoff valve? Both documented in Florida?
> 
> Or is it reasonable to believe that products specified to meet ASTM standards should withstand a glance from a mop, a turn of a valve, and a kiss from a 4lb. stainless steel sink without failure?


It is also reasonable to believe a professional, who knows the problems of cpvc to turn off the source.



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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

I'm starting to realize your main focus is being able to say, "It's not my fault."

Although several people have told you it's your fault, you just can't accept it. How about this?
It doesn't matter whose fault it is, you are the one that is liable. Just unfortunate circumstances that fell in your lap, when you just barely touched the crappy pipe. That you already knew to be a liability.

Remember the scene in Blues Brothers when she catches up to them in the tunnel. It wasn't his fault either.





So how do you proceed? Move on with life or continue to beat this dead horse?


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

builditguy said:


> I'm starting to realize your main focus is being able to say, "It's not my fault."
> 
> Although several people have told you it's your fault, you just can't accept it. How about this?
> It doesn't matter whose fault it is, you are the one that is liable. Just unfortunate circumstances that fell in your lap, when you just barely touched the crappy pipe. That you already knew to be a liability.
> ...


Seeing that we are at 5 pages for a $500 claim he will continue to beat the dead horse

It was not leaking before he touched it, it leaked after he touched it, very simple. There are things in this business we see everyday that scream "do not touch" so I don't. I explain beforehand about replacement.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> TxElectrician:
> 
> So it's the cleaning woman's fault that the CPVC broke because she touched it with a mop? It's the homeowner's fault because the CPVC broke when he turned off the shutoff valve? Both documented in Florida?
> 
> Or is it reasonable to believe that products specified to meet ASTM standards should withstand a glance from a mop, a turn of a valve, and a kiss from a 4lb. stainless steel sink without failure?


Yes.

It's also reasonable to believe you knew about how fragile it was before you started because you are a professional. But you still worked on it without shutting off the supply, and you still broke it.

How is it you don't see yourself as guilty?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> TxElectrician:
> 
> So it's the cleaning woman's fault that the CPVC broke because she touched it with a mop? It's the homeowner's fault because the CPVC broke when he turned off the shutoff valve? Both documented in Florida?
> 
> Or is it reasonable to believe that products specified to meet ASTM standards should withstand a glance from a mop, a turn of a valve, and a kiss from a 4lb. stainless steel sink without failure?




Kowboy said:


> Deckhand:
> 
> I don't have any problem accepting blame when it's fairly due. *With its track record in Florida, this pipe could have broken when this guy reached for his dish soap. Had that happened, his homeowners insurance would have really been stuck. They insured a home without testing the easily accessible shutoff, without checking for faulty CPVC, or without checking to see if the homeowner knew where his main shutoff was. *
> 
> Instead of being grateful for having a cool head on site, they blame the guy that saved them thousands of dollars.


Kowboy, it seems that you are assigning responsibility to the HO and their insurance company that you aren't willing to assign to yourself and your insurance company as the person working on the HO's property... you want the HO's insurance company to pony up if the HO did it, but don't want yours to pony up because you did it... the simple fact is, it was whole before you touched it... reworded to hold yourself and your insurance company to the same standard you want to hold the HO and his insurance company to...*"**With its track record in Florida, this pipe could have broken when the contractor **chose to drive a scraper into the silicone between the stone and sink flange to get this one to let go. And the the stainless steel sink, which probably weighed less than 4lbs., broke the CPVC water supply line behind the cabinet and inside the wall on its way down.. Had that happened, the contractors insurance would have really been stuck. They insured a contractor without testing the easily accessible shutoff, without checking for faulty CPVC, or without checking to see if the contractor knew where the HO's main shutoff was." 
*​Your insurance company accepted their responsibility, and you're going to extreme lengths not to accept yours... you say it could have broke if a cleaning woman's mop TOUCHED it or because the HO turned off a valve, but want to IGNORE what you did and your subsequent responsibility... sometimes in the heat of an issue, it's hard to see how you're actually working against yourself...


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

I just wish Judge Judy could deal with this.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

I hate having to repeat myself, but I've said repeatedly that I completely accept MY SHARE of liability in this issue. Do I find every shutoff in every house if I so much as glance at a faucet now? Yup. I'm not trying to weasel out of anything.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> I hate having to repeat myself, but I've said repeatedly that I completely accept MY SHARE of liability in this issue. Do I find every shutoff in every house if I so much as glance at a faucet now? Yup. I'm not trying to weasel out of anything.


So then why are you fighting it?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> I hate having to repeat myself, but I've said repeatedly that I completely accept MY SHARE of liability in this issue. Do I find every shutoff in every house if I so much as glance at a faucet now? Yup. I'm not trying to weasel out of anything.


Accepting responsibility is what your insurance company did (and my guess is it's because they've seen this story before otherwise why pay THOUSANDS right off the bat that you complained about when you only had to cover $500)... 

You trying to get out of paying your $500 deductible in your letter to them in the beginning, after being the one it all started with, while at the same time wanting to put it on the HO (who would have had to pay their deductible) and their insurance and not even sending out the piece to be tested until four months later... isn't...

It's ironic that you claimed you saved your insurance company thousands for having a cool head, while in the process of causing the damage, while they are the ones who actually PAID OUT thousands and you STILL want to fight it based on what?

Based on your response to them, and their subsequent cancelling of your policy, you might want to consider it seems they made the judgement that you're increasing their risk factor and/or are not living up to your contractual obligation to pay the deductible four months later and counting...


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

..they probably would have dropped him anyway..often happens after a claim..


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> ..they probably would have dropped him anyway..often happens after a claim..


Of course they dropped me, even after they promised they wouldn't.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

they drop everybody:w00t:


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

KAP said:


> Accepting responsibility is what your insurance company did (and my guess is it's because they've seen this story before otherwise why pay THOUSANDS right off the bat that you complained about when you only had to cover $500)...
> 
> You trying to get out of paying your $500 deductible in your letter to them in the beginning, after being the one it all started with, while at the same time wanting to put it on the HO (who would have had to pay their deductible) and their insurance and not even sending out the piece to be tested until four months later... isn't...
> 
> ...


I am assuming it has less to do with the $500 and a lot to do with pride and reputation.

If you flood someones house and don't even remain involved to get the house dried out and water back on it looks like you are an extremely reckless contractor. Not to mention remaining involved to repair the damage from the flood. 

If you can change the narrative and convince people that the customer had a substandard house that caused the damage and you had to deal with it, it makes the contractor the victim. 

I would think that all other contractors who see the story concluding it is his fault would make him reconsider. If it was just about $500 I think he would. But its not about that. It's about stomaching the reality that he caused massive damage to someones house and didn't make it right. 

I see this as a case of someone wanting it all. Like I mentioned above. I cut a pipe once. I dealt with it on my dime and there for there was no insurance claim. The customer did't have to deal with correcting anything because I did. 

He want's to let someone else dry out the house, fix the pipe and repair the damage from the flood. All that and not have the negative effect to his reputation or loss of insurance. The only way to pull that off is to find a way to make it someone else fault. 

Not only that, he is out throwing fits on other people project to force them to take responsibility.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

FrankSmith said:


> I am assuming it has less to do with the $500 and a lot to do with pride and reputation.
> 
> If you flood someones house and don't even remain involved to get the house dried out and water back on it looks like you are an extremely reckless contractor. Not to mention remaining involved to repair the damage from the flood.
> 
> ...


And he stole a piece of the pipe he snapped off.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

I had a thing with a rusty oil tank and a law suit..I thought I was done:sad:..i don't wish that on nobody..


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> I had a thing with a rusty oil tank and a law suit..I thought I was done:sad:..i don't wish that on nobody..


You don't even wish it on me? 

_________


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

I like and respect you Mike..I consider you my deck guy friend in California :thumbup:


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

FrankSmith said:


> If you flood someones house and don't even remain involved to get the house dried out and water back on it looks like you are an extremely reckless contractor. Not to mention remaining involved to repair the damage from the flood.
> It's about stomaching the reality that he caused massive damage to someones house and didn't make it right.


FrankSmith:

I did exactly what I was supposed to do, which is carry $2,000,000.00 worth of liability insurance. The home was never unliveable. As a licensed Florida building contractor, I cannot legally repair plumbing inside a wall without a plumbing license and permit. I could not have repaired that pipe that night had I wanted to.

When you smack into someone else's car, you don't have their car towed to your garage so you can bondo and paint it that afternoon. Same thing here.



> If you can change the narrative and convince people that the customer had a substandard house that caused the damage and you had to deal with it, it makes the contractor the victim.
> 
> I see this as a case of someone wanting it all.
> 
> Not only that, he is out throwing fits on other people project to force them to take responsibility.


How many times must I say to read the entire thread? Had you done so you would have repeatedly heard me say I'm not abdicating responsibility, simply calling for proper attribution of blame and fairness.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> You don't even wish it on me?
> 
> _________


Maybe a little.:laughing:


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

I am working on a build out at the moment. Today we were installing some material on a wall where cabinets will be installed. As we went to slip some material over some brand new CPVC my help said "Lets get some shims over hear. That sh!t is going to explode if any weight ends up on it". I instantly thought of this thread. Good thing I have good help.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

I asked Ms. Andrews if I could say that this means the pipe was so bad that it couldn't survive testing to see how bad it actually was and she replied "That is correct."


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Sure looks like the smoking gun to me...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Maybe this is one of those times Kowboy doesn't need to be right. 

_________


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> Maybe this is one of those times Kowboy doesn't need to be right.
> 
> _________


This morning, my wife was giving me s#!t over spending the money for this test. I told her "Suppose the homeowner gets on the internet." Now I have proof that this wasn't all my fault. She agreed.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> Now I have proof that this wasn't all my fault.


No you don't. You have proof it's crappy pipe, nothing more.

The pipe didn't drop a sink on itself. Had that not happened, you have no way of knowing how long it would have lasted. Good grief, man.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Have you been missing your sertraline?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Well you managed to convince your wife you aren't at fault, it's just the rest of the world that thinks you're guilty as sin.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> This morning, my wife was giving me s#!t over spending the money for this test. I told her "Suppose the homeowner gets on the internet." Now I have proof that this wasn't all my fault. She agreed.


So does that mean you're going to try and argue this on some internet rating site? You'd not only have contractors arguing with you and using it against you in such a forum, but HO's certainly aren't going to get the warm fuzzies because you have a report from some company they've probably never heard of says a pipe couldn't be tested. How do you know you didn't affect the pipes integrity to perform such a test in it's removal if it is so fragile?

Putting aside you waited four months before even trying to have it tested, it's been almost five months and the HO has had their claim taken care of and you've not said they have claimed anything about it on the internet...

I can understand why your wife was giving you flack over spending the money based on the 0ff-chance that a customer who hasn't taken to the internet to post a review you don't like about your handling of it MONTHS later but will all of a sudden feel the need to do so... they've obviously moved on... why haven't you?

The simple fact is NONE OF IT happens without it originating with you... IOW, the very fragile pipe was working fine until someone touched it (and like you yourself said, if the customer touched it, THEIR insurance would be on the hook)... it's what we HAVE insurance for...

This is almost the very definition of confusing activity with accomplishment and a cautionary tale on the waste of company time and resources... in the end of ALL this you STILL have to pay your deductible, a report that doesn't prove anything and a wife who's upset you spend the money...

Exactly what did you GAIN here?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

KAP said:


> So does that mean you're going to try and argue this on some internet rating site? You'd not only have contractors arguing with you and using it against you in such a forum, but HO's certainly aren't going to get the warm fuzzies because you have a report from some company they've probably never heard of says a pipe couldn't be tested. How do you know you didn't affect the pipes integrity to perform such a test in it's removal if it is so fragile?
> 
> Putting aside you waited four months before even trying to have it tested, it's been almost five months and the HO has had their claim taken care of and you've not said they have claimed anything about it on the internet...
> 
> ...


All the test concluded is after you drop a sink on a pipe it becomes so brittle you can't test it.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

The testing company said they cracked the pipe just putting it in the lathe and that negates any further testing. Now they have figures?


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

If I break a window on a jobsite should I not have to replace it? After all, it was made with something fragile as glass.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

RangoWA said:


> The testing company said they cracked the pipe just putting it in the lathe and that negates any further testing. Now they have figures?


Not to mention it handled over 150 pounds of force.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

KAP said:


> So does that mean you're going to try and argue this on some internet rating site?


I use an internet lead service that provides customers the opportunity to review me. While this homeowner hasn't, if he ever did, I have a scientific rebuttal.



> Exactly what did you GAIN here?


I got material for a column out of the deal that almost paid for the testing and over 7,000 views here. We all learned a little bit.

Oh, and I never even look at a sink without finding the main shutoff now.:laughing:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> I use an internet lead service that provides customers the opportunity to review me. While this homeowner hasn't, if he ever did, I have a scientific rebuttal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Views on CT are worth something?


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Inner10 said:


> Views on CT are worth something?


Apparently his pride

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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

TxElectrician said:


> If I break a window on a jobsite should I not have to replace it? After all, it was made with something fragile as glass.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


TxElectrician:

Suppose you were guilty of allowing raindrops to hit the glass and the raindrops broke it? Is is reasonable to assume a window on a job site should withstand raindrops?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> I use an internet lead service that provides customers the opportunity to review me. While this homeowner hasn't, if he ever did, I have a scientific rebuttal.


What scientific rebuttal do you think you have? You said they couldn't test it and there's no way to determine if the section you took out was damaged from the sink, or during your extraction ir shipping it to them for that matter... being that you are holding onto the fragility of it, keep in mind, it all originates with you... there's simply no way around it...





Kowboy said:


> I got material for a column out of the deal that almost paid for the testing and over 7,000 views here. We all learned a little bit.
> 
> Oh, and *I never even look at a sink without finding the main shutoff now*.:laughing:


Do you realize what you just said?...


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> TxElectrician:
> 
> Suppose you were guilty of allowing raindrops to hit the glass and the raindrops broke it? Is is reasonable to assume a window on a job site should withstand raindrops?


I'd expect my window to stop rain drops, I wouldn't expect it to stop the kitchen sink if it were dropped on it.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> I'd expect my window to stop rain drops, I wouldn't expect it to stop the kitchen sink if it were dropped on it.


Rain drops absolutely... power washer at close range... not so much... one is naturally occurring, the other originates with someones action... who's insurance company is on the hook for either depends on how the damage originated...


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## Quality5280 (Sep 4, 2016)

Inner10 said:


> Your insurance company covered damage that occurred on private property?



A little late but 
No we ended covering the expense from it
I've never looked into if our policy covers incidents on private property


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

My premiums have been around $1,000.00 a year for the last several years. My new agent came back with a quote of $4,000.00 per year since this $20,000.00 claim was paid. 

Can anyone tell me what other industry punishes the customer for using the product? Imagine if your Ford dealer said "What! You DROVE the truck? You didn't keep it in the garage 24/7/365? And now you expect us to sell you another?"

I'll be 62 in two months. I may quit before I pay it.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Are you the same guy that brags about how much you charge? 

And let me guess you charge the customers that use more of your time and resources more than those who use less?


You pay insurance so that if something terrible happens they will pay it. Something terrible happened and they paid it. Many people cover it out of pocket to avoid an increase in insurance cost. You didn't. They now think you have a potential for recklessness causing a liability to them. 

I am more understanding when the situation is outside of your control. That is not the case here and the Ford analogy is not at all similar.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> My premiums have been around $1,000.00 a year for the last several years. My new agent came back with a quote of $4,000.00 per year since this $20,000.00 claim was paid.
> 
> Can anyone tell me what other industry punishes the customer for using the product? Imagine if your Ford dealer said "What! You DROVE the truck? You didn't keep it in the garage 24/7/365? And now you expect us to sell you another?"
> 
> I'll be 62 in two months. I may quit before I pay it.


Insurance is a high priced loan.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> I'll be 62 in two months. I may quit before I pay it.


If you're a LLC and lease the tools from yourself, who needs insurance? No assets at risk, what's to lose?


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

FrankSmith said:


> Many people cover it out of pocket to avoid an increase in insurance cost. You didn't.


I was never given an opportunity to cover it "out of pocket". The homeowner's insurance company would not return any correspondence.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

hdavis said:


> If you're a LLC and lease the tools from yourself, who needs insurance? No assets at risk, what's to lose?


I get a lot of work from www.homeadvisor. No insurance, no work from them.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

You can't be licensed if you have no bond or insurance here. My experience with home advisors was they are scammers. They charge you for leads for work you don't do and outright lie when they set it up so they can.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

4000 is still good depending on what it covers and volume. Are you covering more than countertop work? 

It is B.S. though when rates do that. Haven't had a claim yet but several friends have and have the same issue


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Former boss had a peice of plywood blow off a scaffolding in a grocery store parking lot that was open for business. We used to travel the western states and convert all the Lucky stores to Albertsons. Changed out the massive storefronts. The plywood hit a lady knocked her face first into the concrete. Jacked her up pretty good. His liabilty was 27k a year after that. Never did find out the lady's outcome. 

_________________


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Just increase your rates for sink installs to cover the higher insurance premium. If you do ~50 sinks a year and got hit with $4000 extra per year for insurance, add $80 to every sink job.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Kowboy said:


> This morning, my wife was giving me s#!t over spending the money for this test. I told her "Suppose the homeowner gets on the internet." Now I have proof that this wasn't all my fault. She agreed.



How much did it cost to test the pipe?

I’m just thankful I don’t have that job testing when a pipe breaks. Holy shlt that sounds like it would suck. Almost makes me so thankful I want to eat the cost of my concrete guy using my gravel driveway as fill dirt. Almost.


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## Pangdev (Dec 6, 2017)

*Hand the claim to*

your insurance agent

Thats what they get paid for.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Each time this thread resurfaces, I am immediately reminded of this vid.

Both OP & video guy belong to AHU. Ass Hats United.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Each time this thread resurfaces, I am immediately reminded of this vid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Holy crap was that worth the 13 min. Lmao 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

i had a pretty rough day.... but holy **** that video is the best thing i have ever seen:clap:


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I think it’s hilarious that they’re videoing instead of trying to find the main shut off.

Tom


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

...so today at work, still chuckling about that video,,, i remembered that The Stooges did something similar.... sorry I don't know how to post links but on youtube "a plumbing we will go" enjoy:thumbsup:


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

parkers5150 said:


> ...so today at work, still chuckling about that video,,, i remembered that The Stooges did something similar.... sorry I don't know how to post links but on youtube "a plumbing we will go" enjoy:thumbsup:


Those guys are caricatures of all my subs. . Whenever I see a gaggle of my subs at work I always comment.. 3 stooges drywall, 3 stooges concrete, 3 stooges roofing, 3 stooges HVAC, 3 stooges granite, 3 stooges electric....... you get the idea. :biggrin2:


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Big Johnson said:


> Those guys are caricatures of all my subs. . Whenever I see a gaggle of my subs at work I always comment.. 3 stooges drywall, 3 stooges concrete, 3 stooges roofing, 3 stooges HVAC, 3 stooges granite, 3 stooges electric....... you get the idea. :biggrin2:
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/xXHVVXAcNYM


You need better subs. Or you might be one stooge gc.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Big Johnson said:


> *How much did it cost to test the pipe?
> *
> I’m just thankful I don’t have that job testing when a pipe breaks. Holy shlt that sounds like it would suck. Almost makes me so thankful I want to eat the cost of my concrete guy using my gravel driveway as fill dirt. Almost.


Page 3... 



Kowboy said:


> *I just mailed my pipe sample to Atlanta for forensic testing. $255.00, *or just over one percent of the claim they paid. I'll keep you posted in a few weeks.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

The insurance company is insisting I owe them a $500.00 deductible and they're sending me nasty notes. I sent them their deductible minus the forensic testing fees.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Kowboy said:


> The insurance company is insisting I owe them a $500.00 deductible and they're sending me nasty notes. I sent them their deductible minus the forensic testing fees.


The insurance company that dropped you?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> The insurance company is insisting I owe them a $500.00 deductible and they're sending me nasty notes. I sent them their deductible minus the forensic testing fees.


That's confusing... They paid your claim and honored your agreement with them... why don't you think you should hold up your end of the agreement?


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> The insurance company is insisting I owe them a $500.00 deductible and they're sending me nasty notes. I sent them their deductible minus the forensic testing fees.


The insurance company paid this claim to avoid the cost of a law suit. I’m pretty sure they’ll have no problem going after you for the balance due.

Tom


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

KAP said:


> That's confusing... They paid your claim and honored your agreement with them... why don't you think you should hold up your end of the agreement?


No wonder they dropped him...


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