# Worst Customer You Ever Dealt With



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

I'm sure we all have our own personal horror stories, which we would like to forget. Even several years after the fact I still have this one former customer haunting my memories. Post your own experience so we/I do not feel all alone. Or, am I the only one who went through this type of an experience? I doubt it.

I did a roofing estimate in spring of 2001. A very large historic home. Homeowner decides 3 months after I submit my proposal to go ahead with the job, because even though mine was substantially higher than 4 other quotes,(more than double of one), and 15 % higher than the closest one, I suggested she had a legitimate hail damage scenario on her roof shingles. After meeting with her adjuster, and he took due diligent photos of the exterior and interior damages, he approved about half of the total job cost to be reimbursed. Sounds good to me, I just saved the homeowner $ 19,000.00 off of my quote. 

She decides on only one shingle which is on another city owned historic building. After lengthy research, it is discovered that this company, Celotex, is bought out and that particular style and color has not been manufactured for about 3 years now. But, her painters girlfriend convinces her that it is obtainable over the internet. I did locate some, about half of what where required and told her that is not enough. Painters girlfreind talks her into using another similar style for the other half and then her boyfreind can FAUX Paint these shingles to match what she wants them to look like. I say, NO WAY, it would mean hand picking shingles from different bundles for every successive shingle on a 12/12 pitch and also that the solvents in the paint would void any warranty and possibly eat away at the asphalt. I write her a note the job can not be sceduled until she makes a decision on a shingle that is currently available.

One year later, she files a law-suit stating that the lack of me starting her project has caused significant interior damage, even though she just had two substantial brick chimneys completely torn down and rebuilt, which required the mason to move my tarps that had been up for over 6 months so far. BTW, when we signed the contract, I got the insurance funds as my deposit, and I offered to tarp the house where the shingles and valleys where completely worn through to prevent further damage to the interior.

I've already spent the deposit, so refunding the money and backing out over one year later was not available to me. We finally get her lawer to agree to have her choose another shingle and we agree to start within 3 weeks after she does.

The job went perfect, lasted 2 1/2 weeks plus a couple of bad weather days. I submitted change orders for every splinter of wood that required replacement, she would not sign anything until she got the advise from all of her 6 advisers, which never happened, but I submitted progress updates every day even though she would not sign anything. At least she verbaly agreed that everything was going well. She liked the crew and even invited them over to use her in-door pool in the adjoining pool house upon completion.

I submit the final bill, and she has her punch-list. It included some of the pre-existing damages from the interior when I first did the original estimate. I have a reasonably priced repairman so, so I just ate the repair costs to get every thing done so she had zero reasons to hold up the final payment, which now totaled just under $ 28,000.00.

To keep a long story long, we go to mandatory non-binding arbitration, and I win 100 % of my claim from the 3 judge panel. I even had the insurance companies original photos as evidence she was lying about the interior damages and when they occurred. I even had a CLUE report that showed she had a previous insurance claim for this same interior damage just 2-3 years prior, which they denied. I took 777 photos of the entire project as evidence to be prepared for what I knew was coming, and filmed 2 hours of the project on my cam-corder, with daily shots for about 5-10 minutes each day.

Court finally approaches and she fires her lawer and he withdraws due to not being paid. She loses the automatic finding for judgement in my favor for the full amount at court. She filed an appeal of the judgement one day too late, so I have a judgement for about 28 K. I settled for a reduced amount of $ 24,500, to be received immediately rather than have a judgement and try to chase down funds. Job completed in September of 2002 and I finaly got paid in December, 2005.

The moral of the story is: Have an attornys fee clause for collection of funds owed and a legally binding late fee, otherwise the $ 8,000.00 cost for my attorney is out of your own pocket.

Whew! I'm glad to unload that.

Sorry about the length.

Ed


----------



## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Thanks Ed ... now I feel like I've been very fortunate.

Bob


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*What Can We Learn From Each Others Experiences?*

Thats the short version. You know, I feel fortunate to have overcome this challenge as well. It taught me some valuable lessons.

That is my point or intention of this thread, so that we can learn from each others challenges. 

1) What was the problem situation?
2) What could have been done earlier on to avert the problem?
3) What learning experience have we gained from the situation?

And to anyone who actually took the time to read that lengthy post of mine, my hats off to you. I realize, that unless you were impacted by the situation personally, it is just another story.

Ed


----------



## HUDSONVALLEYEXT (Aug 29, 2006)

You don't ever ask for payment between the down payment and the final payment?


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Hudson,

When I got the insurance check from her, that was larger than the initial 33 % down payment I require. Upon start of the job, she did, slowly and grudgingly come up with the difference between the first 33 % down payment and the second 33 % on job start payment. 

If I re-call correctly, the original contract called for about $ 34,800. The insurance ck was for about $ 15,000 or $ 16,000. Slightly, (one week to be exact), later, she brought the amount paid up to the 66 % amount of the original base contract amount. I never had the opportunity during 3 seperate measurement appointments to inspect the attic interior to see if it needed complete plywood decking overlay if it was skip sheathing. Therefor, my contract identified and specifically listed the plywood decking overlay as a seperately priced out option, which I advised her was probably the case, but I was not 100 % sure enough to include in my initial quote without knowing for a certainty. 

Prior to her signing the contract I was able to inspect the attic and informed her in writing that new 1/2 " cdx would be required to the tune of about 155 sheets.

My goal is to reduce my monetary liability during the duration of the project as much as possible, but she was only going to come up with the difference to bring the total paid to date to the 66.667 % amount of the originally quoted base contract amount, even though we both clearly understood that the additional plywood would bump the price up considerably.

Thank you for the feedback though. That is a very valid point. Do not allow the amount owed to be overly significant. I would like to get it so that there is only 10 % due upon completion, but I feel most homeowners would object based on homeowner "how to choose a contractor" type articles which suggest substantialy more be held back. From what I interpret, in California, contractors can only collect 10 % deposit or $ 1,000.00, whichever is less, until completion.

Ed

P.S. Feel free to openly share your own darling customer obstacles and the lessons we can al learn from it.


----------



## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Anybody from the Middle East! They all suck.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

No, this customer was not a middle Eastener prone to the flea market method of negotiations. She could pass for Kathy Bates, in "Misery" though, and I felt like James Caan while she "hobbled" him.

As I found out after the fact, she already had made an insurance claim on the interior damage and the roof as well and it was turned down due to being pre-existing damage and deterioration from old age. I naively thought that by my persuaviveness to get the adjuster to quantify and accept the hail damage on the roof, that she would have been incredibly grateful. MY MISTAKE. Once a swindler, always a swindler.

After I was done with her case, and was down at the county recorders office, I looked up her track record, and the guy who took over the other portion of the contracted work, for 1/2 round gutters, got screwed for 50 % of his contract amount too, as he placed a lien on the property. The primary reason I did not proceed with the gutters when I did the roof was to allow her painting contractor time to do his exterior painting and repair/replace the 100 year old crown mouldings. I'm glad I did not have to provide any additional work, and that was a great reason to get the heck out of there.

Ed


----------



## HUDSONVALLEYEXT (Aug 29, 2006)

Teetorbilt said:


> Anybody from the Middle East! They all suck.


Im not racist but whenever some one from the "Middle East" calls me I never call them back. Every job with them goes wrong...


----------



## HUDSONVALLEYEXT (Aug 29, 2006)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Hudson,
> 
> When I got the insurance check from her, that was larger than the initial 33 % down payment I require. Upon start of the job, she did, slowly and grudgingly come up with the difference between the first 33 % down payment and the second 33 % on job start payment.
> 
> ...





I must I have misread about payment in your first post.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Who can blame you for missing it. The post is too darn long for me to read, and I had a stake in it.

I've learned a long time ago, to try to get as much of the money as soon as you ethically can.

I still make mis-judgements though.

Ed


----------



## BlenderWizard (Mar 21, 2006)

HUDSONVALLEYEXT said:


> Im not racist but whenever some one from the "Middle East" calls me I never call them back. Every job with them goes wrong...


Yeah, it's really hard to do work for people when there's a communication problem.


----------



## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> From what I interpret, in California, contractors can only collect 10 % deposit or $ 1,000.00, whichever is less, until completion


I heard something slightly different, but which makes a huge impact, money-wise. It was my understanding that in CA you can only collect 10% or $1000, whichever is less as a deposit...HOWEVER, there was nothing saying you couldn't collect another 23% (or whatever suits you) upon, say, material delivery or job day #1. One of us is misinformed (could very well be me)...or maybe both of us. I'm curious now, although it really makes no difference to me way over in IL.


----------



## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

My own worts customer story: the neighbour from hell!
I did a deck for my next door neighbour back in 1991. To this day I consider him my worst customer. suffice it to say that he is a lawyer, and a family law (divorce) lawyer to boot extremeely able to twist words. Not only that, but his wife is a lawyer as well!
In fact, even though he SCREWED me, I have reccomended him several times as a divorce lawyer because I know first hand how much of a shark he is.

But, he was my immediate next door neighbour, and we'd seem them socially, so I just didn't expect it.
As a minor example, at one pont in the job we spent TWO hours discussing how we were going to attach the 1x1 trim to hold in the lattice. 3 carpenters, he and his wife, me, and my foreman. 6 people. Should have taken 2 minutes. The deck took almost 2 months, when it should have been 2 or 3 weeks.
I eventually got paid the entire amount of the contract ($14,000: today would be double, at least), but nothing for extras, which were probably $5000.00. To this day it
sticks in my craw.
5 or 6 years ago, our best friend's daughter got married, and this fellow and his wife were there for the other side. I ignored him. Later, he went to my friend and asked him why I wouldn't talk to him. Not a clue!

I got my revenge, though. In May 1992, I held a bar-mitzvah for my oldest son in my backyard. I had 220 people, a party tent, two 8' barbques, a hot dog stand, a concession trailer (cotten candy, candy apples, and the like) in my driveway for the neighbour kids, a plywood dance floor, and a band.
In short, a fantastic party. I invited about a dozen of my neighbours, and sent a letter to the rest both warning and thanking them for putting up with the noise and the cars.
The only one I didn't invite, was, you guessed it, my next door neighbour!!!

That's my story.


----------



## Doug M (Nov 26, 2006)

4 out of my 6 worst customers were Lawyers.The 1st one got me......real bad.I got the other three.They feel the Law and Contracts mean nothing.I have a short leash on them.1 1/2 days after a payment is due and the Job will stop.With one he lived in a village that fined him everyday past a certain point that the c.o was due.His wife was happy as a clam with the whole job and I recorded her saying so.He was coming up with stuff like I thought(even though the contract stated otherwise) that the drawers had under mounted slides????.He was trying to get out of the last payment which was only $3000 on a $50,000 kitchen.Let him get fined for a few months until he called and left a message that he sent a check.I deposited it and as soon as it cleared I picked up the phone.Gave him a call and said I would meet the inspector the next day.
Having said that I will be starting a bathroom for a lawyer on Monday who is one of my best customers and have done work for her parents,brother,Inlaws,Aunts...

Doug M


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*What caused the discepency for the change order sum?*

Stone, 

What was the conflict regarding your additional costs and how did it occur?

Those particulars is what I am trying to pull out of everyone, so that we can all share from each others learning experiences.

Besides the fact of working for an attorney, I mean.:laughing: 

Ed


----------



## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

BOUT 5 years ago, I did a 35sq mansard hip cedar tearoff and replace with 5/8" royals for my lawyer who I had a balance of about 7k with for child custody litigation, he paid upfront for all materials and my bottomline to him was 15k, had a contract to get paid the balance due after deducting fees I owed him (8k) well well you can guess what he did to his invioces to me, yep he adjusted them just shy paying me $100, thats right. 

labor=$15,000
 -$ 7,000 (work in trade)
= $8,000 (balance due me)
 -$7,900 (fabricated invoicing to me:thumbdown)
=$100 paid in full
Paybacks are a *****:whistling


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*RE: CSLB, California Regulations, Glad I'm not there!*

Jprofer,

I went to the CSLB, California State Licensing Board site and searched under consumer info.

*Money - The Bottom Line*

*Price –* 
All contracts must include the price that was agreed upon for the work. Any job $500 or more needs a written home improvement contract. And by law, the job must be completed for the agreed upon contract price.
If the contract price needs to be changed, it MUST be done with a written "Change Order", which then becomes a part of the contract.

*Down Payment –* 
If the contract calls for a down payment before work starts, the down payment can not be more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) or 10 percent of the contract price, whichever is less, for a home improvement job or swimming pool, excluding finance charges.* There are no exceptions for special order materials.*

*Schedule of Payments –*
A home improvement contract must include the payment schedule. It should show the amount of each payment and explain what work, materials or services are to be performed for that particular payment.
*Payments to the contractor cannot exceed the value of the work performed.*

*Ed*


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*Lawyers?*

*How do you prevent a lawyer from choking to death?*
***
**
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Remove your hands from his throat!:laughing: *


----------



## Mrmac204 (Dec 27, 2006)

there is what might be an urban legend here- lots of trades won't work for folks (particularly lawyers) on the "west" side of town- old money district, near to the university- same reason as others have stated above- no pay, tricks, games.. not sure if its true, but it seems reasonable...


----------



## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> If the contract calls for a down payment before work starts


It's the "before" that I am (or would be) interested in. Fine, 10% BEFORE work starts, but then another 23 or 40% WHEN work starts.




> There are no exceptions for special order materials.


This is exactly why, if I *had* to love in CA for whatever reason, I would close my business. I'm not spending MY money on YOUR non-returnable, non-refundable, special order, pink with purple polka dot solid marble vanity top and matching tub with surround. No way.


----------



## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

POOLMANinCT said:


> my worst customer , a lawyer that wen to law school in his 40s, as his engineering career bored him.


lol ... 

reminds me of a joke


_A lawyer, an engineer and a contractor walk into a bar ..._


:laughing: :whistling


----------



## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

A few "bitches" about middle easterners here, probably warranted. I've had some experience with Indians (middle eastern Indians not American Indians) with the same result. I've come to the conclusion that it's a cultural thing. It's the norm and to be expected in their society. Unfortunately, it's abusive here and it's us Americans who end up being abused. 

I took a different approach in dealing with them. Rather than just saying no, I would add the final payment amount to the total contract amount. If the job would have been $50,000 with a final payment of $5000, it becomes $55,000 with a final payment of $5000. If they "cheat" me out of the final payment, which I expect they will, I still got my "real" price.


----------



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

This is America, and if they accepted the price you offered without any deceipt, that is the real price then.

You are entitled to receive the whole amount agreed to. 

Maybe you will learn that your actual prices should have been at that plateau in the first place. :thumbup: 

Ed


----------

