# Is the breaker bad?



## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

I've got an afi in my master bedroom that just decided to trip, so I reset it, came back in (my panel is outside) and it tripped 5 mins later, reset again and it tripped within 5 secs... what do you guys think? I've heard these break easily is this correct? 

Thanks


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

I would determine whether it's caused by an overload or an arc fault first.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

When it first tripped the only thing turn on was the cable modem and my tablet to charge.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

You can certainly install a replacement AFCi breaker, but if there's an arc fault somewhere you'll have gained nothing but a lighter wallet.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

What else can trip these things off? Water? (It's raining right now) loose wire in an outlet?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

RobertCDF said:


> ....... loose wire in an outlet?


Precisely what AFCIs' are designed to detect.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

480sparky said:


> Precisely what AFCIs' are designed to detect.


That's what I figured, but I don't even pretend I'm an electrician...


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Well I guess I'll have my electrician look at it, I checked all the outlets and while some of the back stabs were a little loose I pushed them in and it still trips after 5 secs.


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

while you're doing that i would recommend attaching to the screw. back stabs are no good from everything i've heard and seen.
you could hook it up to another breaker of the same size and see if it's tripping because of an overload. i'm guessing it's an arc fault though since that seems more likely.


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## PCI (Jun 8, 2012)

Im not an Electrician, but I have had too many problems with stabs And arc fault breakers


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Not a sparky either. I hear the backstabs are better now, but I will not back stab as long as there is a screw available.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Here we go again.

On the bright side, it's been at least a few months since the last Great Backstab Debate. :laughing:


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

It would help to know what kind of wire you're dealing with.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

If there is nothing plugged into the receptacle, and it has a loose wire, will it still trip seeing as there is no current flowing?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

What if it's daisy-chained with another which _does_ have something plugged in? :whistling:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Leo G said:


> If there is nothing plugged into the receptacle, and it has a loose wire, will it still trip seeing as there is no current flowing?


Yes.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Yes.


Okay, I gotta hear this one. No movement of electrons is going to activate a sensor that depends upon electron flow to do its thing?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

I love the saying that if you backstab, you will always get stabbed in the back.

I am amazed that they are still manufacturing them with that option. And YES, using the backstab feature (after the spring tension lightens in a year or so) will create the scenario that the AFCI breakers sense.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Tinstaafl said:


> Okay, I gotta hear this one. No movement of electrons is going to activate a sensor that depends upon electron flow to do its thing?


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Well damnit, I wasn't trying to start the back stab vs screw crap... my electrician hasn't called me back yet so it's either check the fan and switches (only things I haven't checked yet) and then I'll swap the breaker.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Bob, if you have an identical breaker elsewhere in the box, it's a no-brainer. Swap them and see what happens. If the same circuit keeps popping, THEN is the time to start trying to isolate the bad connection/device. :thumbsup:


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Bad breaker... btw due to the large number of false tripping (and breakers going bad) my local building department has decided to eliminate the afci requirements for the time being. Kind of nice when they realize that sometimes the codes don't make sense.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

RobertCDF said:


> my local building department has decided to eliminate the afci requirements for the time being.


How can they do that? It's my understanding that local AHJs can only _*add*_ to the state-adopted code, never subtract from it. Or are you under an older code (at state level) that doesn't require AFCIs?


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Tinstaafl said:


> How can they do that? It's my understanding that local AHJs can only _*add*_ to the state-adopted code, never subtract from it. Or are you under an older code (at state level) that doesn't require AFCIs?


To be honest I'm not sure if we have a state wide code, I've only worked in a few other areas and each has their own version they adhere to.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

skyhook said:


> It would help to know what kind of wire you're dealing with.


Reason I ask is because I came across a similar situation in a house wired with 12ga. copper clad aluminum branch circuits. All devices were AL rated, back stabbed from the 70s.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

skyhook said:


> Reason I ask is because I came across a similar situation in a house wired with 12ga. copper clad aluminum branch circuits. All devices were AL rated, back stabbed from the 70s.


House is from 2002, no al wire here, just 14g copper.


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## livingsoulsdie (Sep 29, 2006)

I come across this issue all the time. The first thing I will do if I suspect a bad breaker is I disconnect the suspected faulty breaker prob a 15Amp, unscrew the wires out of it, disconnect an already mounted breaker that is currently working good and hook that circuit up to it. If that continues to trip you know it is not the breaker. If you get to this point open up you boxes an check all the devices ex: outlets, switches etc. Make sure that in all the boxes you don't have a ground and a neutral touching this will trigger your Afci. If that does not work call an electrician lol.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

RobertCDF said:


> House is from 2002, no al wire here, just 14g copper.


14ga is ok for lighting, not recepticles.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

skyhook said:


> 14ga is ok for lighting, not recepticles.


It's perfectly acceptable for both, code-wise.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

Tinstaafl said:


> It's perfectly acceptable for both, code-wise.


I would have to see that in writing.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

skyhook said:


> I would have to see that in writing.


Try the code book. :laughing:


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> Try the code book. :laughing:


show me


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

skyhook said:


> 14ga is ok for lighting, not recepticles.


No such code. May be a job spec.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=70&cookie_test=1


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

you guys are right. It not code. my bad,
They make 14ga backstab 15 amp recepticles so it must be legal. 
Don't let blue smoke out. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

skyhook said:


> you guys are right. It not code. my bad,
> They make 14ga backstab 15 amp recepticles so it must be legal.
> Don't let blue smoke out. :laughing:


You can't backstab with 12ga wire. That's been a UL requirement since 2000. The rule holds for_ all_ devices, not just receps.

But that does not translate into 14 not being illegal for receps. There's still the screw terminals.


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