# Need Serious Help Convincing My Brother



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

pcplumber said:


> I don't believe you can use common sense nor logic when considering whether or not to give discounts because people act more on emotions than logic.
> 
> I think it is Carmax that states in their advertising that they will not discount their car's sticker prices and at the same time I will bet that a very high percent of people walk off car lots when they want a car that is already a good deal and the only reason they walk is because the dealer is hard-nosed and will not give a small discount.
> 
> ...


Carmax out sells other used car dealers by over double. Once again you are dead wrong on your observations and conclusions.

I don't hassle with those ethnic groups and don't miss their business at all. When you do give in that's all they do is nickel and dime you for the entire project duration. They will ask while your there can you ____?

No thanks. I'll stick to customers who assimilate to the American way I dint need to make anyone feel like they got a deal through haggling. Like I have said a thousand times when they choose me they have chosen a great value at a great price.


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## Skyvorima (Nov 3, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Carmax out sells other used car dealers by over double. Once again you are dead wrong on your observations and conclusions.
> 
> I don't hassle with those ethnic groups and don't miss their business at all. When you do give in that's all they do is nickel and dime you for the entire project duration. They will ask while your there can you ____?
> 
> No thanks. I'll stick to customers who assimilate to the American way I dint need to make anyone feel like they got a deal through haggling. Like I have said a thousand times when they choose me they have chosen a great value at a great price.



It is sort of ironic you claim the American way is different from making people feel like they got a good deal.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Skyvorima said:


> It is sort of ironic you claim the American way is different from making people feel like they got a good deal.


Ironic? Hardly. Look up the definition. You and Alanis would get along swimmingly. 

I don't think that'swhat I said at all. I said I don't need to haggle like they do in other countries. When they hire a service provider they haggle the price. It's inflated then discounted to make you feel like you got a deal and not ripped off. I don't need to play that game. Do they haggle at McDonalds? Nope, because their price is their price.


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## Skyvorima (Nov 3, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Ironic? Hardly. Look up the definition. You and Alanis would get along swimmingly.
> 
> I don't think that'swhat I said at all. I said I don't need to haggle like they do in other countries. When they hire a service provider they haggle the price. It's inflated then discounted to make you feel like you got a deal and not ripped off. I don't need to play that game. Do they haggle at McDonalds? Nope, because their price is their price.


Until about 5 minutes ago how have car dealers operated? The freaking stock market? Banking? Mortgages? 

You cannot claim the American way is not to haggle then expect to be taken seriously.

For anyone needing help with the irony:

"in its broadest sense, is a rhetorical device, literary technique, or event in which what appears, on the surface, to be the case, differs radically from what is actually the case."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

So when anyone says or implies the American way is not to haggle they are being ironic.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

Guess I am unamerican then. I don't haggle anything. I research to find the best value and I go with that. Haggling is a waste of time.


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## Skyvorima (Nov 3, 2013)

Creter said:


> Guess I am unamerican then. I don't haggle anything. I research to find the best value and I go with that. Haggling is a waste of time.



Every product at every store you have ever bought went through a haggling price process. This is how Walmart dominated so well by basically extorting manufacturers who wanted their accounts.

It is not American or unAmerican to haggle. It is called a freaking economy. I dont haggle on bids simply because it is not worth my time.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It's a DISCOUNT warehouse. Everything is supposed to be at a discount. So that's all they do is give discounts. But when you look into some of the prices you aren't getting much of a discount.


It's not a discount warehouse here, it's a warehouse with fair fixed prices and bulk quantities.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Skyvorima said:


> Until about 5 minutes ago how have car dealers operated? The freaking stock market? Banking? Mortgages?
> 
> You cannot claim the American way is not to haggle then expect to be taken seriously.
> 
> ...


Okay. I know you are all excited to jump in but the subject is haggling over services.

It was said that certain ethnic cultures is customary to haggle. It is not customary to haggle a remodeling job. People try, but it's not expectec as it is in, say India. It's actually an insult to both parties if one doesn't haggle. I know because my SIL is from India.

You can twist my words any way you like but let's stick to the specific topic that I was referring to, okay?

Again, you clearly don't understand the definition of ironic. Wikipedia should never be your source.

Irony is something happening in the opposite way expected. So a cat chasing a dog is ironic. Me saying that it isn't the American way to expect to haggle over everything isn't ironic. Not even in the slightest.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> It's not a discount warehouse here, it's a warehouse with fair fixed prices and bulk quantities.


Actually it is. It's a "wholesale" warehouse. Everything is discounted. Discount just means a reduction in the regular price. Since much of what your are being is bulk. You are getting a bulk discount.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Skyvorima said:


> Every product at every store you have ever bought went through a haggling price process. This is how Walmart dominated so well by basically extorting manufacturers who wanted their accounts.
> 
> It is not American or unAmerican to haggle. It is called a freaking economy. I dont haggle on bids simply because it is not worth my time.


Haggling and negotiating aren't the same thing.

It's also not extortion if you want it. It's not like they have to do business with Walmart.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Actually it is. It's a "wholesale" warehouse. Everything is discounted. Discount just means a reduction in the regular price. Since much of what your are being is bulk. You are getting a bulk discount.


They don't advertise a discount vs MSRP. It's not like Walmart. 

They have a very small range of product skews and are very picky about the quality of products they sell. They allow you to return anything you aren't satisfied with.

A discount store focuses only on price not service.

Maybe it's different in Canada but here its more of a premium bulk goods store with exceptional service.


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## crawlspacediy (Aug 24, 2015)

You can use discounts in a variety of different manners. Every home owner wants to feel like they are getting a great deal. I would concentrate on giving value to the home owner over giving discounts.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

One thing that happens on here , is anytime someone mentions a business practice, everyone that does that gets defensive .

It's situational. It can be stupid, helpful or neither .

One thing I do know, there is no benefit to doing it if the customer doesn't grasp that you are doing it for them . if anything , I'd use it as a close.....if you ll sign, write a check or whatever now, I ll do this for x dollars . but even that needs to be a case where its needed or beneficial, like saving your rear end .


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> They don't advertise a discount vs MSRP. It's not like Walmart.
> 
> They have a very small range of product skews and are very picky about the quality of products they sell. They allow you to return anything you aren't satisfied with.
> 
> ...


A discount store is any store that sells products at a discount. A discount is just a reduction in the normal price. It's nothing to do with quality or return policies.

They advertise savings based on wholesale prices. Since wholesale is less (reduction) from retail, it is a discount. If it weren't for the discounted price, why so there? 

There are several outlet malls that carry high end goods but sell everything at a discount. They are a discount stores.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

AGullion said:


> One thing that happens on here , is anytime someone mentions a business practice, everyone that does that gets defensive .
> 
> It's situational. It can be stupid, helpful or neither .
> 
> One thing I do know, there is no benefit to doing it if the customer doesn't grasp that you are doing it for them . if anything , I'd use it as a close.....if you ll sign, write a check or whatever now, I ll do this for x dollars . but even that needs to be a case where its needed or beneficial, like saving your rear end .


But what would you discount? Profit? Pay?

And I of I'm trying to save my rear how would making less help?


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Exactly ....what the guy is doing seems fairly pointless. And if , for whatever reason you think you have to do it , start high enough you don't put yourself under.

I still contend , if you discount all the time , you aren't positioned right in the market possibly .


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Membership clubs are a different model, sort of a hybrid of retail and wholesale. I don't care what they call themselves, that's just the marketing schtick. One pays for the opportunity to shop lower margins (discounts?) with annual dues, so what does that mean? Some products are closer to wholesale (the stuff the food truck guys have full carts of), and other stuff that's volume-packaged retail (peanut butter, for example)...and then there are their "events", a combo of premium-value for a limited time.

......hey, where's the OP? Hello!? (Now I want a hot dog w/ kraut.)


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

AGullion said:


> I still contend , if you discount all the time , you aren't positioned right in the market possibly .


Amen


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

I like it when I'm way higher and still get hired, because I can afford to do even better work. 

Then my phone rings because more people saw the work, and I have more to select from... Then I raise my prices more.

No kidding.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> A discount store is any store that sells products at a discount. A discount is just a reduction in the normal price. It's nothing to do with quality or return policies.
> 
> They advertise savings based on wholesale prices. Since wholesale is less (reduction) from retail, it is a discount. If it weren't for the discounted price, why so there?
> 
> There are several outlet malls that carry high end goods but sell everything at a discount. They are a discount stores.


It's a premium store here. Walmart is a discount store.


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## JLeeDB (Oct 19, 2015)

TaylorMadeCon said:


> Why the frig do people think this is an acceptable practice?


I've been wondering the same thing for the past 2 months. I don't have much experience with real estate/construction since I'm in the financial/investments industry. However, I've been noticing a pattern of just about every homeowner asking for some kind of cut off the price, or at least that's what my brother has been relaying to me. 

I would regard contractors and architects as professionals, but many people don't see it that way. I wonder if doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants, and other professional service providers give "discounts". I wouldn't ask my doctor for a discount, that's for sure. 

The world morphed into a "Made in China" type of cheap for all services? Everyone wants a deal and the cheapest price possible, even if it entails a huge risk?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What conclusions?
> 
> Give me some good reasons why a customer would ask for a discount on a quote? You guys find it easy to tell me I'm full of it, but that is all you can come up with. The fact is they think it's too much for the scope, they are cheap or the aren't educated on the cost of that type of project. Overcoming objections is a great shill to learn. Giving into discounts isn't.
> 
> ...


The conclusion that they're all discount shoppers and hagglers. I do agree to avoid them in general, but I disagree that they are all the same.

Some are naïve, uneducated, watch too much TV, have a neighbor that just had it done for "x", whatever the reason. Avoid, educate or move on. 

Others bring their negotiating business acumen of "getting a special deal" to everything and just need that extra touch. Some are so good at it that they lull us into our sweeter pricing before we even write it up. What makes a customer feel good, or anyone for that matter? It is just getting what you ask for? For some, yes. But others need that extra special touch they can boast about. It's not that they "took advantage", but that they feel special. And it's not always about money, that's oversimplifying. For such folks, the bottom number is less important than how they got to it and how good they feel. So if you want to "throw in a sink for free", for example, the next time you quote a granite job, I'll understand.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

JLeeDB said:


> I've been wondering the same thing for the past 2 months. I don't have much experience with real estate/construction since I'm in the financial/investments industry. However, I've been noticing a pattern of just about every homeowner asking for some kind of cut off the price, or at least that's what my brother has been relaying to me.
> 
> I would regard contractors and architects as professionals, but many people don't see it that way. I wonder if doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants, and other professional service providers give "discounts". I wouldn't ask my doctor for a discount, that's for sure.
> 
> The world morphed into a "Made in China" type of cheap for all services? Everyone wants a deal and the cheapest price possible, even if it entails a huge risk?


It's awkward, but you can gently inquire about a private pay discount from some doctors. Their pricing is sometimes only a list price that is marked up to bill insurance (whereby insurance reduces it back to their "allowable"). My doc's policy is to accept 50% for private pay, and he's top notch with a first class office. The right way to ask is "does this office offer a reduced rate for private pay"?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Initial sticker shock isn't the issue. It's when you submit the final bid and they ask for a discount. You should be able to overcome initial sticker shock. Once you have submitted your final quote and they are shocked at the price you have most definitely failed.


Nice try. Folks don't ask me for one at that time. The problem can lie in them seeking other bids at the same time and then comparing bids. You can't control who else they're calling. If they heard "great things" about you and a guy who comes in $2k cheaper on say, a $12k job, it's tough.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> The conclusion that they're all discount shoppers and hagglers. I do agree to avoid them in general, but I disagree that they are all the same.
> 
> Some are naïve, uneducated, watch too much TV, have a neighbor that just had it done for "x", whatever the reason. Avoid, educate or move on.
> 
> Others bring their negotiating business acumen of "getting a special deal" to everything and just need that extra touch. Some are so good at it that they lull us into our sweeter pricing before we even write it up. What makes a customer feel good, or anyone for that matter? It is just getting what you ask for? For some, yes. But others need that extra special touch they can boast about. It's not that they "took advantage", but that they feel special. And it's not always about money, that's oversimplifying. For such folks, the bottom number is less important than how they got to it and how good they feel. So if you want to "throw in a sink for free", for example, the next time you quote a granite job, I'll understand.


Sorry I'm confused. Who is all discount shoppers and hagglers? My post you just quoted gave the reasons they ask for a discount all of which are easily overcome.

Why do they need the extra touch? What motivates them? That's the basis of my argument. The raw psychology of it. Why do I need to lose so they can boast? Like I said you guys can have those clients. To me is a huge red flag. What else will I need to give to make them feel better.

They are getting what they asked for, a price for the scope of work they requested. Why must I give more? Why would I give then a discount when I didn't give the last 10 one?

Unless I got the sink for free I'm not buying then a sink.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

JLeeDB said:


> I'm only helping with the business aspects. He handles all of the estimates/quotes. I can't be there during the day to really monitor what's going on in his office.
> 
> You guys want a good example of what's going on? Today, my brother sent out a design proposal for $2,000. He said the prospective client asked for "$1,500 and the job is yours".
> 
> Let's see what happens. I really hope he doesn't back down from $2k.


"$1500 and the job is yours." Straight from the cheapo's handbook. Many world-class chiselers are excellent judges of character.

"Thank you for your response. No worries, I understand if your budget doesn't have room for our quality proposition, and I wish you the best of success with your project."


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Sorry I'm confused. Who is all discount shoppers and hagglers? My post you just quoted gave the reasons they ask for a discount all of which are easily overcome.
> 
> Why do they need the extra touch? What motivates them? That's the basis of my argument. The raw psychology of it. Why do I need to lose so they can boast? Like I said you guys can have those clients. To me is a huge red flag. What else will I need to give to make them feel better.
> 
> ...


You keep oversimplifying and calling it a discount. That assumes you are always presenting your best, bottom line price. Fine, I get that. But not everybody does it that way and there's nothing wrong with alternatives. You're too set on your "direct" method being the only way. 

We've got so many stone guys out here and yes, I do get certain sinks for free from my place and pass it on. Do I say who actually bore the cost? No. Everybody's still happy.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

As an example, when these guys are playing a round at their 100k/year club, I guarantee you they give each other leads on "who will take good care of you" for various things. Cars, renovations, clothing, whatever. Then you're dealing with some cabinet showroom or premium tile outfit and there's special treatment. I can't believe you haven't seen this and/or turn away the projects. Whatever.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> You keep oversimplifying and calling it a discount. That assumes you are always presenting your best, bottom line price. Fine, I get that. But not everybody does it that way and there's nothing wrong with alternatives. You're too set on your "direct" method being the only way.
> 
> We've got so many stone guys out here and yes, I do get certain sinks for free from my place and pass it on. Do I say who actually bore the cost? No. Everybody's still happy.


A discount is what it is. Look up the definition. It's a reduction in price. It's not oversimplified is what it is. 

You should present the price you want. Pretty simple. No need to play games.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> As an example, when these guys are playing a round at their 100k/year club, I guarantee you they give each other leads on "who will take good care of you" for various things. Cars, renovations, clothing, whatever. Then you're dealing with some cabinet showroom or premium tile outfit and there's special treatment. I can't believe you haven't seen this and/or turn away the projects. Whatever.


You are proving my point. They will tell their friends not to accept your first price that you'll negotiate. 

When my customers refer me they tell them I'm worth every penny I charge. And that's the difference. I'm eliminating hagglers by the clients I chose and the referrals they give.

You will attract like clients by the clients you cultivate. You guys act like it's do or die, that you have to give discounts in order to be successful. You don't, ever.

There's plenty of proof. That's my only point. I've said it several times, if you guys want to play that game and have those customers go for it. Just here to educate others that you don't have to play that game. There are plenty of people out there that don't waste your time with it.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

This is epic.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You are proving my point. They will tell their friends not to accept your first price that you'll negotiate.
> 
> When my customers refer me they tell them I'm worth every penny I charge. And that's the difference. I'm eliminating hagglers by the clients I chose and the referrals they give.
> 
> ...


Not exactly. I tell them I'm giving them my best price right off the bat. You keep spinning the stories to fit your argument.

Are you worth every penny because you undercharge? 

It's not "do or die" for me. I have no problem getting a sense over the phone and declining work (in a nice way.)

It's not a game. It's one of many, many ways business works. In general, are you averse to incentives? It's not a dirty word. It's part of business.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Not exactly. I tell them I'm giving them my best price right off the bat. You keep spinning the stories to fit your argument.
> 
> Are you worth every penny because you undercharge?
> 
> ...


So if you tell them right if the bat, why would they ask?

You already said it's done to make them feel good and so they can boast. That's a game.

The incentive should be why you are a better choice and value not a price reduction. Why give a discount if you can convince them to pay you the entire amount?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BTW when I said "you" it wasn't you that I was referring but the general "you". I should have said "one".


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> So if you tell them right if the bat, why would they ask?
> 
> You already said it's done to make them feel good and so they can boast. That's a game.
> 
> The incentive should be why you are a better choice and value not a price reduction. Why give a discount if you can convince them to pay you the entire amount?


I'm talking generally. I've marketed and "sold" in different industries before settling on this utopia. But I can get a sense of someone real quick. When they're a referral, I inquire about the type they are. But if I am up against a few other "good" contactors, sometimes all the sales skills in the world and my great reputation won't help if I'm a couple grand too much. I've had this discussion with other very good local contractors, and everybody seems to have similar experiences and also have a couple tricks up their sleeve to manage it or walk. A couple years ago I got blown out of the water on a nice job that I thought was mine, and then asked for some feedback from a GC I know. A real eye opener. He basically told me that my numbers were "4 years old" (too high), no matter how great I was, and now there are certain numbers that need to be achieved, no matter what, to seal the deal. He explained why, but I won't go into it. It's kind of like working backwards from expectations in the market. Just hit the number any way you can.

Same for my floor guy. We were just talking about a few jobs he didn't get. He had over 40 years experience and knows his stuff and has low overhead and a great reputation. But he's dealing with a market that wants to pay much less and can find plenty of skilled guys to do it. The GC's are pushing him down, as well, and the referrals are finding too many alternatives to compare with him. He's losing his mind. The market treats flooring like a commodity out here.

Hey, whatever. All the best. I need to go write up some discounts.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Adjusting for market isn't discounting.

But again your examples work against you in a way. If we keep discounting then the expected price continues to drop.

As for subbing and working for builders and GCs, that's an entirely different discussion and has nothing to do with selling to the end user.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

JLeeDB said:


> I've been wondering the same thing for the past 2 months. I don't have much experience with real estate/construction since I'm in the financial/investments industry. However, I've been noticing a pattern of just about every homeowner asking for some kind of cut off the price, or at least that's what my brother has been relaying to me.
> 
> I would regard contractors and architects as professionals, but many people don't see it that way. I wonder if doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants, and other professional service providers give "discounts". I wouldn't ask my doctor for a discount, that's for sure.
> 
> The world morphed into a "Made in China" type of cheap for all services? Everyone wants a deal and the cheapest price possible, even if it entails a huge risk?


Some people ask everyone for a discount - lawyers, doctors, drug dealers, the minister at the wedding, the cemetery, everyone.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Ok, for those that have never had to discount, if other contractors discounting is hurting the game, then how is it you have never had to offer any kind discount? My point is, by your own words, you don't have to do it , and you stay slammed, so obviously it's having no affect on you. 

Mark James really shed a lot of light , as he knows you have to be aware what the market will bear.

Also, in case no one has realized it yet, we all make up every bit of what we charge and or discount ...there is no set price for doing any of this. It's totally subjective.

There can come a time , in everyone's business life, they have to be aggressive to survive . If you haven't , I am proud for you. 

Discounting , when done profitably and strategically can be a good strategy, when done recklessly it won't .

If you think you are so good is the reason why you never have to discount , you may just not have any real competition in your area . 

It speaks well that you don't have a need to, but it doesn't make you a contracting genius.

.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Who claimed to be a connecting genius? I'm just saying that you never have to discount. There isn't a single objection that one shouldn't be able to overcome.

What do you mean by aggressive to survive?


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

If you don't know what that means, you obviously have a way different strategy than a lot of us.

Some us out here are high. I mean way high, and get it . We are among the best in the country at what we do. . But we run into jobs we want , jobs we can kill,jobs we can turn fast and clients we know pay....and if the timing is right, and we want the job, we make sure it happens .

If you never discount, and get all you you bid, that's amazing , and if you are making what you need to make , keep at it.

As far as "overcome" , you can't overcome a 40,000 difference on a 120,000 project in most cases. If it's profitable at 120 and you need it or want it , you work it out.


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