# Financing a vehicle



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Warren said:


> I have always bought used and paid in cash. Payments suck for vehicles. I usually don't carry full coverage insurance either. I look at the example of the old guy who has made $200 a month payments since 77 and I can only say, why?? 33 years of payments and he owns what? How much did he pay in full coverage insurance? I just can't make the math work for a new work vehicle. I think the poster should just buy used for whatever he can with cash. If that means a $5000 truck, so be it.


You have a payment, it's just hidden. Second, an old vehicle IS NOT the same as a new. Third, he is left with ALWAYS driving brand new when used people drive used stuff.

30 years of driving new vs 30 years of driving used junk? Take your pick.

They guy who buys used? When he is done the truck is worthless.

Mike


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

There is another consideration. This of course does not apply to everyone, but you just cannot pull up to a million dollar home, quote top dollar for your work and get in your beat up truck.

The client will just say "thanks, I'll call you" 

May not be fair, but that's the way it is.

The higher end customers didn't make their money by being stupid. They will see that truck and think how good/successful can this guy be? He can't even aford a new truck.

It is an unfair assumption on their part, but that's what they think. Heard it many times from the horses mouth.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Mike your thinking has flaws. New vehicles do need repairs and maintenance, just as much as used. Some of these are covered, some are not. The depreciation thing also does not work in your favor. And the part about not being able to afford a down payment is ridiculous. I have bought used vehicles for as much as $13000 for cash. Pretty sure If I put that down I can drive new whatever I want. You still need to address the issue with the insurance as well. If you buy new with payments, you will pay for full coverage. Let me give you y example and you can run numbers. I own a 99 Ford E350 Econoline. I bought it in 2004 with 108000 miles and paid $6000. It now has 218000 miles, so I guess the first owner and myself have owned half the vehicles life. He probably paid about $20000 in 1999, and got $6000 back when he sold it. So in vehicle cost he had $14000 plus all the other expenses, insurance, repairs and maintenance (some),etc. I could probably still get $2500 for it now. I have done 2 sets of tires (1300), brakes twice ($300), radiator (300), and misc other repairs and maintenance for lets say $1000. I have driven it for 6 years with no full coverage saving me probably $3000 which offsets the repairs. So my cost compared to his is $3500 vs $14000. Not to mention, if he financed it he also had those costs. This is not some miracle situation. I have had many similar vehicle experiences, some a little worse, some a little better. This to me is typical. I write off the mileage which always works out better than taking depreciation and costs. 

This has been my experience for 25 years and it has worked well. Why would I buy new now and change things?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Kato: I agree that the vehicle needs to be decent. Joe homeowner cannot tell the difference between my van and a two year old van. Both white and not a piece of crap. I do work on million dollar houses consistently. Maybe I am just special? Who knows?


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

I checked KBB, Mike.

Here is a new 2010 f-150









Here is a used 2010 f-150









Here is a private used 2010 f-150











Looks awful close to 10k to me.

These were based on 18500 miles and excellent condition.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

As an owner and executive of the corporation my dad would never drive anything but a nice vehicle....but that's not why he does so. He does this because he understands the math.

Most people who end up with used vehicles end up in a big trap. Once they go down this road buying new is impossible. They depreciate the same it's just that people can't save for a down payment and that means a large monthly payment.

On a new loaded truck do the reverse math on my dads payment and figure out his equity. He owes less on a new one every cycle than people who buy used.

Don't take my word for it. Go to KBB.com and crunch the numbers. I have learned my lesson the hard way. I use to buy new and now I'm in the same trap. Back when I bought new I had it made.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

shanekw1 said:


> I checked KBB, Mike.
> 
> Here is a new 2010 f-150
> 
> ...


Again, it depends on what you actually pay. This isn't realistic by any stretch, people don't own a vehicle for 6 months.:laughing:

Run the numbers over 3 years and see what you get. 

Fully loaded Lariat extended cab. Loaded to the gills.

When you say "trucks" in general, what does that really mean? You have to put it into proper context.

Mike


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Warren said:


> Kato: I agree that the vehicle needs to be decent. Joe homeowner cannot tell the difference between my van and a two year old van. Both white and not a piece of crap. I do work on million dollar houses consistently. Maybe I am just special? Who knows?


Agreed, as long as your vehicle looks decent and is reasonably new, you be ok. I was imagining the ones with rust holes and bent bumpers. :laughing:


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Go back to 2008 and it's only another $1600


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

shanekw1 said:


> I checked KBB, Mike.
> 
> Here is a new 2010 f-150
> 
> ...


The price for the new vehicle you are showing is way to high. That price they show is def not invoice. My truck after one year was worth the same as paid for it. I did have xplan pricing as friend is manager for biggest dealer in area but almost anyone can get x plan if they know where to look. Your even better of if you can get a plan pricing though. 

Also OP if you have never had any credit before then dont worry about having checks done as if you have no credit then you have no credit score so you cant hurt it. also expect to pay way over the normal rates you see advertised. I come to the US with a lot of money in the bank but zero credit rateing because I had never had credit also. I couldn't get credit anywhere and it took me 2 years to build up a credit rateing of any kind and I'm still unable to get finance on anything.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> As an owner and executive of the corporation my dad would never drive anything but a nice vehicle....but that's not why he does so. He does this because he understands the math.
> 
> Most people who end up with used vehicles end up in a big trap. Once they go down this road buying new is impossible. They depreciate the same it's just that people can't save for a down payment and that means a large monthly payment.
> 
> ...


Wow Mike!

I respect you and generally agree with what you say. I think you are totally off base here. Some people like to drive newer vehicles, that's ok, however I am not one of them. As for being trapped into buying used??? What does that mean? Maybe you feel trapped and can't buy new anymore, I dunno. I can buy new if I want to, it just doesn't add up. I am extremely confident in my abilities to crunch numbers, real numbers. You have bought into a lie in my opinion. I think buying new is just a preference. There is just no way it goes by the numbers no matter what math you use.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Hey, this is a fun exercise.:laughing:

Shane, also consider that the sticker is NOT what people actually pay. The amount can swing in the thousands. Smae goes for trade ins (dealers love these), they can also swing in the thousands.

It's a good friendly conversation here. Not all people who buy new are morons. Companies sell a ton of new vehicles every month.

Also, read the Smart Money article I posted in my first post.

Mike


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Again, it depends on what you actually pay. This isn't realistic by any stretch, people don't own a vehicle for 6 months.:laughing:
> 
> Run the numbers over 3 years and see what you get.
> 
> ...


I bet I could find more than a few used trucks less than a year old. And I'm in Hickville.

When I say trucks, I mean anything with tires and an engine.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Warren said:


> Wow Mike!
> 
> I respect you and generally agree with what you say. I think you are totally off base here. Some people like to drive newer vehicles, that's ok, however I am not one of them. As for being trapped into buying used??? What does that mean? Maybe you feel trapped and can't buy new anymore, I dunno. I can buy new if I want to, it just doesn't add up. I am extremely confident in my abilities to crunch numbers, real numbers. You have bought into a lie in my opinion. I think buying new is just a preference. There is just no way it goes by the numbers no matter what math you use.


I'm trapped because to get me out of used and into new AGAIN is gonna cost me.....BECAUSE I bought used.

You have to actually do the math, look at the depreciation.

For a real reality check look at Toyota or Honda passenger cars, look how they hold the value.

A Chevy Cavalier? That you WANT to buy used because they depreciate like crazy. A CADDY? That also, they drop like a rock.

Trucks don't


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## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

LOL you guys are to much..... Everybody take a breath and relax!

All I was going to add was >Mines a chassis and cab truck not a pick up. Then have to read through 2 pages of ^

Cole


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Cole82 said:


> LOL you guys are to much..... Everybody take a breath and relax!
> 
> All I was going to add was >Mines a chassis and cab truck not a pick up. Then have to read through 2 pages of ^
> 
> Cole


It's all friendly Cole. Conversations like this are good and the folks here are good people. I don't think anybody is upset.:thumbsup:

I'm not

Mike


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## CCCo. (Jul 19, 2009)

I don't know, but my calculator shows you in the hole consistantly.

I have always owned used vehicles outright, so to shell out a payment every month, I just can't follow that.

I probably buy my used vehicles, for the price of the large down payment you speak of.
I'm not constantly paying for repairs either. This thread has me lost.

I thought I knew how to add. :laughing:


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Sorry Cole, I just take my math really seriously!


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

So?

Has anybody run the math on a loaded 07 Ford and a loaded 04 Ford?

What was the depreciation?

Mike


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Whether or not you pay for it outright has nothing to do with cost.

Depreciation IS the payment.

Come on guys, fire up the calculators.:laughing:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

If anybody can show me I'm wrong I will man up and write an official "I'm a dufas" post addressing each one of you.:laughing:


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Whether or not you pay for it outright has nothing to do with cost.
> 
> Depreciation IS the payment.
> 
> Come on guys, fire up the calculators.:laughing:


If you pay for it outright, you do not have to carry full coverage insurance. To some this may seem dangerous, but when you spent $6000 instead of $20000, you can afford the risk. 25 years of savings tells me I got this one right.


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## CCCo. (Jul 19, 2009)

You better get to work on that mike :whistling

:w00t:


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Mike is right, this is just a fun conversation.

But Mike, how does comparing an '07 and an '04 show the depreciation of a brand new truck off the lot?

It's that first year that is the killer.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

On that note, I have to go watch my daughter be an elf in her first Christmas concert.:clap:

I _will_ be back.:shifty:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

KBB value my 2009 at 4000 less than I paid for it. It's now a 2 year old model. My friend recently went to look at one as he really likes mine. Was in awful condition and the guy wanted $38k for it. My mate nearly bought it but someone got back to it quicker than he did. If a truck is selling for anymore than a couple of thousand less than it was new there's someone wrong. Trucks devalue very slow compared to cars. 

$2k depreciation on my truck is fine each year. They also say the first 3 years are the worst. Even the dealer says second hand prices a high at the moment on used trucks because many people can't get finance on new.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

shanekw1 said:


> Mike is right, this is just a fun conversation.
> 
> But Mike, how does comparing an '07 and an '04 show the depreciation of a brand new truck off the lot?
> 
> It's that first year that is the killer.


Well, it shows what happens in a 3 year period.

So....once you have this go back to KBB and price out a new one. Take the 07 number and look at the number. Break it down either in % or in yearly dollars. 

Shane, what we are looking for is the comparable rate between the two. It's really interesting what you find. Also, do it on the imports as well.

Do it on a Dodge, and Chevy. Math like this is a lot of fun.....at least for me.

Mike


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> KBB value my 2009 at 4000 less than I paid for it. It's now a 2 year old model. My friend recently went to look at one as he really likes mine. Was in awful condition and the guy wanted $38k for it. My mate nearly bought it but someone got back to it quicker than he did. If a truck is selling for anymore than a couple of thousand less than it was new there's someone wrong. Trucks devalue very slow compared to cars.
> 
> $2k depreciation on my truck is fine each year. They also say the first 3 years are the worst. Even the dealer says second hand prices a high at the moment on used trucks because many people can't get finance on new.


Bingo!!!!!

My Dad says the exact same thing. He says his new one will never depreciate more than 2,000 a year......he always does better.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Ya know something guys.....

My whole life I have been at odds with my Dad, we fought like hell growing up.:laughing:

When I got older I discovered he was right. I fought him on this whole used vs new things for years and years.

The numbers don't lie.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Your also forgetting the other great things about new trucks. Warrenty and free service plans. I get free service every 3k miles. They replace the cabin air filters, seat air filters, oil filters, rotation, refill all fluids for free. In a 3 year period this may save you round $1500 let alone anything covered under warranty. Oh yeah and because I purchased the vehicle from them I get an equivalent vehicle as a rental. A truck for a truck.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Your also forgetting the other great things about new trucks. Warrenty and free service plans. I get free service every 3k miles. They replace the cabin air filters, seat air filters, oil filters, rotate tillers, refill all fluids for free. In a 3 year period this may save you round $1500 let alone anything covered under warranty.


Ahhhhh.....and the smell, come on admit it....nothing beats the new car smell. :laughing:

As an added bonus every year that goes buy trucks get better gas mileage.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Don't forget something important here with what I'm saying.

Used isn't a BAD thing....it's just that a new one costs the same.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Don't forget something important here with what I'm saying.
> 
> Used isn't a BAD thing....it's just that a new one costs the same.


Let's put it this way. My wife controls the money. She had to get the finance on the truck. If a used model would have worked out cheaper she would have made me get it. She done the numbers thing and she said go ahead. New is the way to go.

And yes the new car smell is a nice feature also. Still have it after 2 years.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Let's put it this way. My wife controls the money. She had to get the finance on the truck. If a used model would have worked out cheaper she would have made me get it. She done the numbers thing and she said go ahead. New is the way to go.
> 
> And yes the new car smell is a nice feature also. Still have it after 2 years.


Yes the wife pulls the strings here also.:laughing: My dad has a masters in finance, when it comes to numbers he makes me look like a pre-schooler.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

You guys got me going now. I bought my truck in Sept. 2001 for 33K. So basically, 111 months ago.

With my money down and finance charges, I actually paid $34,060.

This boils down to $306.85 per month to date. Next month, that figure will be $304.10.

Technically, the way I see it, if I can get into a new truck for 500 a month, it's really only costing me $195.90 out of pocket, because the truck I own outright is really costing me that $304.10 a month. Two years from now, that figure will still be $252.29. So if i can get into a used truck for $250 a month, I'll be making $2.52 a month profit.:blink:

OK Mikey, you following my math?

If I keep my truck, I won't have a payment, but if I buy used I will, but I'll be making $2.52 profit a month.

HEY GUYS!!!! I just figured out government math!!!!:laughing:


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## CCCo. (Jul 19, 2009)

loneframer said:


> HEY GUYS!!!! I just figured out government math!!!!:laughing:


Hurry patent those secrets before someone takes all the glory :shutup:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I'll tell you something else.

I have a brother who just recently bought a Dodge truck. It is really awesome and it's in mint condition. It';s a big four door fully loaded truck with every option....I like it a lot.

He bought it used with 90 some thousand miles on it. Right now he is in deep deep trouble. Not only is his payment massive but the repair bills are so large on the 4 wheel drive he had to borrow money to fix it. I feel bad for him, the mechanic actually is willing to give him a deal because he is so fuc###. As it turns out the previous owner beat the daylights out of it. I really don't think it a Dodge problem, this guy wore it right out!

He is now so upside down on the loan he will spend years recovering from it. The dealer shined it up as pretty as a picture, I looked at it with him. You would never know it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

loneframer said:


> You guys got me going now. I bought my truck in Sept. 2001 for 33K. So basically, 111 months ago.
> 
> With my money down and finance charges, I actually paid $34,060.
> 
> ...


Lone that's how I explain to my wife why I should buy something. It confuses her so much and she just looks at me as if to say WTF. I think I get what your saying though. I'm not sure though lol :laughing:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Well I'd say that my situation is the fly in the soup then. :whistling

2006: $52000 (new)
2008: $19000 (used)
-------------
Depreciation per year 1st 2 years: $15000

So basically the original owner paid $30000 to break it in for _me_. :laughing:

I got a warranty (no charge) and 1 helluva truck that will last me years for $33000 cheaper. I guess for that kind of discount, I don't need the new smell. :no:


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

You "new" guys seem to be basing your numbers on best case scenarios. The used one does not have to be best case. Yes, if you can get the absolute best price, on just the right make, right model, with the right add ons, get lowest financing, lowest insurance, best gas mileage, smallest depreciation, etc then yes you just made out slightly better than someone who bought used and made the worst choices. I prefer to not work as hard, and know that I will come out ahead without having to make perfect choices.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

angus242 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> $40000 msrp - $7000 down= $33000 financed
> 
> ...


Angus....for the love of God:laughing:.....you don't pay MSRP.

I can see this is a very hard concept. It's so hard now I'm getting confused.:laughing:


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Angus....for the love of God:laughing:.....you don't pay MSRP.
> 
> I can see this is a very hard concept. It's so hard now I'm getting confused.:laughing:


I think what he is saying is that a large down payment doesn't change the amount you pay for the vehicle. Other than some finance charges.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

shanekw1 said:


> I think what he is saying is that a large down payment doesn't change the amount you pay for the vehicle. Other than some finance charges.



BINGO!!!

$40000 OTD - $7000 down= $33000 financed

$33000 + $7000 _still_ equals $40000 paid

How's that :shifty:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

shanekw1 said:


> These days (post 2008) may be a different story, with the 3 truck makers being in the position they are all in. Factory and gov't incentives make certain new vehicles a lot cheaper than they were in say, 2004 or 6.
> 
> From what I see in my KBB adventures tonight, it has to make more sense to buy a 1 or 2 year old vehicle, drive it for a couple years and sell it for just a thousand or so less than you paid than to buy brand new and lose a large amount right away.
> 
> ...


I can understand what your saying, and again, you can great a great deal buying used. It's just that new is the same price. Even if it's a tad higher a new vehicle is NOT a used one. Warranty has a value, not working on it has a value.

If you do the work yourself that's a whole different animal. I would rather spend my time doing other things but really, that isn't part of the math.

In life I have meet so many people who are convinced people who buy new are foolish spenders. Nothing could be further than the truth. It's an interesting problem for sure. 

One thing I do know is if all the new vehicles made cost people a ton of money people wouldn't buy new...ever. What we find though is people do in fact buy new........each and every month.

Studies indicate what care retain value better than others so the math is easy to obtain to back this up.

I guess it all depends on perspective. People are trained to think "new is bad" but they don't run the numbers and put it into practice. They just buy used and think it's better. Sometimes it is and sometimes it's not.

I know this for sure, if I were buying a luxury vehicle as sure as heck wouldn't buy new.

Mike


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

angus242 said:


> BINGO!!!
> 
> $40000 OTD - $7000 down= $33000 financed
> 
> ...


Ok, I missed what you were saying.

In the end it all depends on what you actually pay. I wont buy used again...I learned my lesson the hard way.

Mike


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Mike, I'm fully versed in how new vehicles work. I've owned my fair share of them. I also worked at dealerships for almost 15 years. I understand margins, financing, warranties, etc.

Do you know the "warranty" is included in the price of that new car? Don't for one short moment think that auto manufacturers fix warranty issues totally for free. The price of that shiny new car is the way is is based off how much "free service" you're getting with it. 

Sure, you blow an engine within 6 months and you're ahead of the game. How often does that happen? Hell, every single used car I've ever bought comes with a simple dealership 90 day warranty. 

Some folks feel good with the full treatment of owning a new car. Others like the lower payment (whether paid in full or financed) of a used car. It's obvious from the arguments this evening, it's a _personal_ choice.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

What Angus hasn't revealed is the miles on the used truck (unless I missed it).

High miles will reduce the value of a truck dramatically 52K to 20K or whatever the number was is meaningless without knowing the miles. If it was low miles it's one thing, if its a 100K used truck its another.

Anyways -



Mike's Plumbing said:


> If anybody can show me I'm wrong I will man up and write an official "I'm a dufas" post addressing each one of you.:laughing:


As I said -



Mike Finley said:


> I can't get your math to work.
> 
> The only time I've bought new is when I have leased a vehicle every 3 years.
> 
> ...


I won't even add the issue of taking that 16 K in cash saved and turning into 30K in 6 months, which equals a free truck.:whistling



Mike's Plumbing said:


> They guy who buys used? When he is done the truck is worthless.
> 
> Mike


You're not on the ball on this one Mike. I sold trucks for 5 years, know every trick in the book and every iota of financing issues.

Anyways - trucks being worthless after being used up is the opposite.

Any vehicle, truck or car loses the biggest percentage of it's value in the first 3 years. (3 year lease? Sound familiar?)

After 3 years the depreciation slows, after 5 it slows even more.

Example 

Bought a 2002 f150 low miles for 15K, drove it for 5 years, just over 100K sold it wholesale (not retail which would have brought more) for $7500. Thats a 25K truck that lost 10K in its first 4 years, lost 7500 in its next 5. or only 1500 a year. Cost nothing to own, changed the oil and put gas in it.


Show me a new truck you're going to own for 1500 a year. Not going to happen.

There is no better deal in the world than a 4 year old truck. Depreciation has come to a stand still. You buy it with low miles in mint condition and you're golden. 

New is good if you're going to lease it and drive new every 3 years, but you won't come out ahead financially, but you will come out ahead mentally if you want to drive new vehicles. 

Nobody gets a free ride, the market dictates the value of used vehicles, those new vehicles end up used and go somewhere. Doesn't matter how you want to manipulate the calculator, the numbers don't work.

Trucks hold their value too well after the initial 3-4 years. Trucks also cost little to own due to being the best built vehicles in the manufacturers line. If you buy them right used you always come out way far ahead.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

angus242 said:


> Mike, I'm fully versed in how new vehicles work. I've owned my fair share of them. I also worked at dealerships for almost 15 years. I understand margins, financing, warranties, etc.
> 
> Do you know the "warranty" is included in the price of that new car? Don't for one short moment think that auto manufacturers fix warranty issues totally for free. The price of that shiny new car is the way is is based off how much "free service" you're getting with it.
> 
> ...


Don't get upset. You right, it's about personal choice but math is still math.

Mike


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> I know this for sure, if I were buying a luxury vehicle as sure as heck wouldn't buy new.





Mike's Plumbing said:


> I wont buy used again...


I'm just bustin balls, Mike :jester:arty::laughing:


I know what you're saying. However, I'm an F350 DRW King Ranch guy now and don't think I can go back. That _is _a luxury vehicle. The 2011 Superduty is GORGEOUS to me. It's a shame to think it will be another 3-4 years before I can afford a 2011. :sad:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> What Angus hasn't revealed is the miles on the used truck (unless I missed it).
> 
> High miles will reduce the value of a truck dramatically 52K to 20K or whatever the number was is meaningless without knowing the miles. If it was low miles it's one thing, if its a 100K used truck its another.
> 
> ...


No, the numbers don't lie. Go to KBB and look at the actual numbers. It all depends on what you buy it for, any car dealer will tell you this.

I can say more but I have said every possible thing I can, I'm just repeating at this point.

Mike


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> What we find though is people do in fact buy new........each and every month.


PT Barnum loved those types. :whistling


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> PT Barnum loved those types. :whistling


Oh well, used car dealers feel the same.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> What Angus hasn't revealed is the miles on the used truck (unless I missed it).


Mike (and Mike ) my truck had 89k when purchased. While you think that may have decreased the value, I don't think it did. I found the exact same truck for sale in Texas with 28K for the exact same price. For me, I know diesels and was comfortable after looking at the repair history that the 60K less miles was not worth what it would have taken for me to get the truck from Texas as opposed from the higher mileage truck from my back yard for the same purchase price. 

Don't forget, warranty is time _or_ mileage, which ever comes first. Since 8/08 when I bought the truck with 89k on it, today it has 104k. I would have run out of warranty on time before mileage anyway.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> It all depends on what you buy it for, any car dealer will tell you this.
> Mike


That's right, but what you guys keep leaving out of the equation is you can buy more value in a used vehicle then a new one.

A new vehicle has a bottom price. Invoice minus incentives. That's the bottom dollar, it won't sell for a dollar less.

Used vehicles have no bottom line. The bottom is determined by what the seller wants to sell it for, not what the dealership and every other dealership across the country bought a new vehicle for (the exact same price)

It doesn't matter how long you want to shop or where in the coutnry you want to shop. Dealership A in California pays the same thing for it's identical truck as dealership B pays in Florida.

Used vehicles don't have this artificial bottom. You can find an identical 2008 F250 fully loaded with 50K miles for 28K and you can find the identical truck with 10K miles for 26K somewhere else. You can't get that initial leverage in a new vehicle. 

If you're going to buy new you should lease it. Then you're trully only paying for depreciation and interest. However, because it's for work you're screwed because you run into mileage and damage which you can't overcome in a lease. That's why slightly used in mint condition beats new every time.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Mike, I think you are convinced that every second used vehicle is one drive around the block from tossing a con rod out the side of the block.

Sure, there is the odd truck that some kid rat bagged, but there are lots of nice off-lease soccer mom f-350s out there too.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

That's it Mike, I'm coming up to WI soon so you can take me to lunch....I'll drive though! :laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Exactly. Trucks for the last 50 years have held their value better then anything else. Depreciation is based on resale value. Nothing magical. After 3-4 years trucks depreciation slows down to a crawl and they become one of the best values on the road. Couple that with low cost of ownership and you've got a difficult hill to climb to convince anybody why you'd pay 40,000 for a new truck when you can buy a 3 year old one for 26K in mint condition and drive it for the next 10 years for $100 a month.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I just spent some time on KBB going over trucks that have a 3 year spread and the value between them. I'm more convinced than ever, the price can be 7-10,000 difference in 3 years. 

My Dad, I think, paid about 29,000 for his loaded Lariat. 3 years later what's it worth.

-----------------------

Rock bottom isn't exactly true in some situations. Right now I can go buy a 2010 left over at the local Ford store for crazy low prices because of the 2011's. A dealer that sits with a truck costs money every month.

--------------------------

Shane: No I don't think used vehicles are all junk, in fact I tried to make that clear. My only point it the difference between the loss of new vs used is not that different. KBB confirmed this, in fact new can be cheaper.

Lots of good vehicles can be bought used......but you don't really know what your buying. Like I said before, new is not used so to compare really isn't fair.

------------------------

Angus: Anytime man, i would be happy to buy ya lunch.....I kinda prefer Hooters.:laughing:

-----------------------

I would like to say thanks for the guys who made this discussion worthwhile. While we can't all agree we still all participated and kept it light. Nothing is worse than bitter conversation. It was a lot of fun going through this.

I'm still not sold on used, but that's ok......you can all buy my used vehicle from me. I don't plan on changing oil very much though, hope you don't mind.:w00t:

Guys have a good night, dam this made me tired.

Mike


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> -----------------------
> 
> Rock bottom isn't exactly true in some situations. Right now I can go buy a 2010 left over at the local Ford store for crazy low prices because of the 2011's. A dealer that sits with a truck costs money every month.


Never in the 5 years I was in that business did I ever witness a dealership lose money on a new vehicle. Meaning - never once did I see a dealership sell a new vehicle below cost.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> Never in the 5 years I was in that business did I ever witness a dealership lose money on a new vehicle. Meaning - never once did I see a dealership sell a new vehicle below cost.


Mike, what you experienced has nothing to do with anything as it concerns cost. Dealers blow out vehicles all the time and they do this so they DON"T lose money in the future. It's a very common thing.

Mike


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Dealers do in fact lose money on certain deals, that happens just like it does in construction or any other business. Ask a dealer if they ever lost money on a deal and they will most certainly say yes.

Mike


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Yes dealers do lose money on vehicles. i asked this question when i was trying to knock my truck down more. my mate said that the price im am buying it for is very close to the price they are paying. i understand that they have to make money also so i was not too worried as i was very happy with my price. he said the only reason they do this is because many people do pay sticker price :blink: and they make the difference up between the two and at times some vehicles will sell for less than they paid for it. he said even when they do that ford give them some kind of kick back depending on how many vehicles they move and at times they need to meet targets and vehicles have to sell below their cost to make these numbers but one way or another they make these back. 


But back onto buying new or used. when you compaire the cost of new to used make sure you compaire like for like. Too many times do a see guys on the ford forums say they got a platinum for $30k and they did but they got a model with the lowest spec they could find and when it comes to resale these lower model never get anywhere near the price of the higher spec models. 

As an example angus may have found a model without nav, ac seats, auto wipers, auto head lights, dual climate, moon roof, 20" rims, dual electric ajust seats, power slide rear window, audio package, side steps, bed steps, long bed, 4wd etc etc etc. 

These options make a massive difference on resale as much as milage does. the market is flooded with low spec models and very few high end models. For all that we know angus had a truck with 100K miles on that was 2 years old. we put around 100k a year on ours and after 2 years they are worth nothing. we just gave away our super duty because of how many miles it had.



Heres my truck as close as i can get it to the options i have and below is the same truck but the lowest options.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> As an example angus may have found a model without nav, ac seats, auto wipers, auto head lights, dual climate, moon roof, 20" rims, dual electric ajust seats, power slide rear window, audio package, side steps, bed steps, long bed, 4wd etc etc etc.
> 
> These options make a massive difference on resale as much as milage does. the market is flooded with low spec models and very few high end models. For all that we know angus had a truck with 100K miles on that was 2 years old. we put around 100k a year on ours and after 2 years they are worth nothing. we just gave away our super duty because of how many miles it had.


I have all but 3 options on my truck; 4WD, uplifter switches and sunroof.

If you think a diesel truck is worth nothing at 100k, you are sadly mistaken.

And since KBB has been referred to so often, I ran my truck through their evaluation:

Today, after owning for 2.5 years and putting on 15K miles:
$25,100


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I don't have to ask a dealer about it because I was there asking them every day for 5 years already. I only worked in the industry, was privvy to the computers, deals, profits etc.. for 3 dealerships in Denver, was in contact with other dealerships across the country and had dealings with the manufacturers. Those bastards must have been lying the whole time to me, with a better cover up conspiracy then who shot Kennedy. 

However, I did meet plenty of mooch customers who believed what you do. They'd come in drooling over last years units, making ridiculous money losing offers for weeks or even months, making the rounds to all the dealerships. They'd get on their soap box and explain to us why their ridiculous offers made sense, how we would never sell the thing and how much money we were losing every month....

You could give them an honest bottom line number, break out of the vehicle by selling it at dead cost and it wouldn't make any difference to some of them. They swore you were making 5 grand off of them somehow. 

Some of them you'd never see again, some you'd see back in over and over again and never sell them anything, some would finally figure it out and buy.

Many of the ones who did buy swore you were losing money, didn't make any difference to us what they believed, if it helped move the unit that the customer believed we were losing money on it, so be it, let them think whatever they needed to think. But I saw the screens and the figures, the hold back, the floor plan, the dealer cash money, everything that gets applied to the net of the vehicle cost. Never saw a loser once in 5 years, even on some grand poobas crazy 500 day old units. They eventually all sold.

"There is an ass for every seat." - meaning sooner or later there will be a buyer for it. Pretty common saying in that business.

2nd one is - perception is everything. Whatever the customers perception was, was reality to them.

It's all good. Now I know it was all a conspiracy. :laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

BCConstruction said:


> Yes dealers do lose money on vehicles. i asked this question when i was trying to knock my truck down more. my mate said that the price im am buying it for is very close to the price they are paying. i understand that they have to make money also so i was not too worried as i was very happy with my price. he said the only reason they do this is because many people do pay sticker price :blink: and they make the difference up between the two and at times some vehicles will sell for less than they paid for it. he said even when they do that ford give them some kind of kick back depending on how many vehicles they move and at times they need to meet targets and vehicles have to sell below their cost to make these numbers but one way or another they make these back.


Is 'mate' another word for companion?

Anyways, I've witnessed more than one time a friend made a nice little profit off their friends selling by them vehicles that their friends would swear to God himself that their friend sold to them at cost or even lost money on it. I know this couldn't have ever happend to you, I'm referring to the 'other guys', not you.

Dealerships are like Vegas. What happens in the dealership in the office doesn't get disclosed, even to 'mates'.

But, whatever you guys need to believe to help you guys sleep at night. :laughing:

By the way - when you calculate the cost of the vehicle you take into consideration all the little items you ticked off. If Ford is going to give them $300 toward that unit to make their numbers that means they own the vehicle for $300 less. You haven't lost money on it. Get it? No. I know you don't.

I know it's hard to believe. This must be like finding out your girlfriend really was doing your best friend even though both of them for 2 years swore to you they weren't. :no:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Is 'mate' another word for companion?
> 
> Anyways, I've witnessed more than one time a friend made a nice little profit off their friends selling by them vehicles that their friends would swear to God himself that their friend sold to them at cost or even lost money on it. I know this couldn't have ever happend to you, I'm referring to the 'other guys', not you.
> 
> ...


 
Well the freind is not a good frined of mine but a familey friend for many years. Its the same guy who sells us the trucks and vans for familey buisness and after being a member on numerous forums i know for a FACT we got good deals. Go over to the blue oval forums. I have many a forum buddy who works for ford pretty high up and they are able to supply you with some pretty handy info no dealer can even find out. as an example my truck went missing and ended up in cali. My dealer couldnt find any info on where the truck was until it was shipped to the freight company who ships it to dealer. my truck left factory on train and ended up in cali by accident. this was the reason i got the dealer to find a another truck the same spec from other dealer. as we all know the people who sell these vehicles aint got a clue. i knew more about my truck that had not been released than the guys who run the place and sold the vehicles. whats that say about people who work for dealerships.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> I have all but 3 options on my truck; 4WD, uplifter switches and sunroof.
> 
> If you think a diesel truck is worth nothing at 100k, you are sadly mistaken.
> 
> ...


 
im not saying its worth nothing. but it could be worth a lot less than a truck with 30k miles which seems the norm around here for 2 year old truck.

I also think thats a fair price for your truck on kbb. They sell for around $20k here from what i can make out with around 100k miles. a 2 year old model sells for around $43k if fully loaded. so if you put that into a comparison thats a lot more than you paid for your 2 year old model when you bought it.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I used to lease my trucks. One day I decided to buy a new one and keep it "forever" ha, ha.

I bought a brand new, loaded gmc. I maintained it rigorously, and kept it for 10yrs. I kept all the bills for all repairs.

Guess what? It cost exactly (within $500) the same as leasing. 

Gave up, since then I just buy new every four years. I consider it the same as buying a new pair of work boots every two years. It's a necessary expense.

I just roll it into my overhead. Bottom line is the customer is paying for it.

NOTE- this is a work vehicle. Not my personal vehicle.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

katoman said:


> I used to lease my trucks. One day I decided to buy a new one and keep it "forever" ha, ha.
> 
> I bought a brand new, loaded gmc. I maintained it rigorously, and kept it for 10yrs. I kept all the bills for all repairs.
> 
> ...


I dont know all the ins and outs of leaseing but if it was more cost effective to lease our familey buisness would do it. we always buy now for one reason or another. but we did used lease. i dont know anything about leaseing so i have no idea why they changed over. its just cheaper to buy new.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

BCConstruction said:


> Well the freind is not a good frined of mine but a familey friend for many years. Its the same guy who sells us the trucks and vans for familey buisness and after being a member on numerous forums i know for a FACT we got good deals.


*Who ever said you didn't get a good deal?*

I'm Curious - Unless your family 'friend' is getting blown by somebody in the family, I'm not sure what his incentive is to keep selling vehicles to your family if all he does is lose money on them. Or by chance is the guy aloud to make a profit once in a while whenever your family so deems him worthy?



BCConstruction said:


> as we all know the people who sell these vehicles aint got a clue. i knew more about my truck that had not been released than the guys who run the place and sold the vehicles. whats that say about people who work for dealerships.


Doesn't say a lot. However what's that got to do with anything that we were discussing? Unless you think just cause a Ford Fan Boy who gets off on mentally masturbating over every gooey detail of a new Ford truck coming out, means everybody at a dealership is too stupid they can't run the computer systems to make deals?



BCConstruction said:


> I dont know all the ins and outs of leaseing but if it was more cost effective to lease our familey buisness would do it. we always buy now for one reason or another. but we did used lease. i dont know anything about leaseing so i have no idea why they changed over. its just cheaper to buy new.


I think that pretty much sums up the whole situation, you really have no idea, you're just repeating what you been told. "We do it this way cause it's cheaper." You have no idea if it is or isn't or any of the details or issues involved, you're just regurgitating.

This whole discussion in regard to this subject is akin to your customers who think they can tell you how much money you are making off them. Those guys have your intimate businesses financial details as figured out as you do about a car dealerships. You guys are beginning to sound like the customer who wants you to supply them with all your receipts and sell them everything at wholesale at that massive discount they know you all get on materials. :whistling


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> *Who ever said you didn't get a good deal?*
> 
> I'm Curious - Unless your family 'friend' is getting blown by somebody in the family, I'm not sure what his incentive is to keep selling vehicles to your family if all he does is lose money on them. Or by chance is the guy aloud to make a profit once in a while whenever your family so deems him worthy?
> 
> ...


 
Ermmm you Mike:blink: 

also if you re read what i said my mate was still making money on the truck. i know people who paid as much as $2k less than me on the same exact truck.



Mike Finley said:


> Is 'mate' another word for companion?
> 
> Anyways, I've witnessed more than one time a friend made a nice little profit off their friends selling by them vehicles that their friends would swear to God himself that their friend sold to them at cost or even lost money on it. I know this couldn't have ever happend to you, I'm referring to the 'other guys', not you.


 


Mike Finley said:


> I don't have to ask a dealer about it because I was there asking them every day for 5 years already. I only worked in the industry, was privvy to the computers, deals, profits etc.. for 3 dealerships in Denver, was in contact with other dealerships across the country and had dealings with the manufacturers. Those bastards must have been lying the whole time to me, with a better cover up conspiracy then who shot Kennedy.


 
Like you stated above. you worked for a dealer ship and as i said non of these guys know what they are talking about. I knew more about a truck than the so called experts. As anyone knows who has bought a new cars salesman aint got a clue.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

BCConstruction said:


> im not saying its worth nothing. but it could be worth a lot less than a truck with 30k miles which seems the norm around here for 2 year old truck.
> 
> I also think thats a fair price for your truck on kbb. They sell for around $20k here from what i can make out with around 100k miles. a 2 year old model sells for around $43k if fully loaded. so if you put that into a comparison thats a lot more than you paid for your 2 year old model when you bought it.


Isn't that one four wheel drive?

Isn't Anguses 2 wheel drive?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

So if this family friend wants some construction work done at his house, does he get it done for below cost?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> *Who ever said you didn't get a good deal?*
> 
> I'm Curious - Unless your family 'friend' is getting blown by somebody in the family, I'm not sure what his incentive is to keep selling vehicles to your family if all he does is lose money on them. Or by chance is the guy aloud to make a profit once in a while whenever your family so deems him worthy?
> 
> ...


 

I dont have a clue about leaseing because i have always been told its a waste of money. esp in this trade.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Warren said:


> So if this family friend wants some construction work done at his house, does he get it done for below cost?


No he gets it done for just above my cost. you scratch my back and i will scratch yours kind of deal.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I think you are mis-reading. I never said a word whether you got a good deal or not.

Your car deals are one subject. The other is whether dealerships routinely lose money on new cars. 

Two different subjects. 

Plus a "good deal" is subjective.

Buying a vehicle and screwing somebody raw over it to squeeze every last dime of profit out of it so I can brag about how I stole it on an internet forum doesn't appeal to me as much. 

Just like I like to make a nice profit on jobs my company does for our customers, I believe a car dealership or anybody else in business deserves one too.

You guys are obviously on another track.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Isn't that one four wheel drive?
> 
> Isn't Anguses 2 wheel drive?


Im not sure. 2wd models are a little less but even if you said 10k less angus still got a unreal deal.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> I think you are mis-reading. I never said a word whether you got a good deal or not.
> 
> Your car deals are one subject. The other is whether dealerships routinely lose money on new cars.
> 
> ...


 
The dealer as far as i know made around $4k from my sale. thats not includeing the "kick backs" from ford. i have no idea what they amount to. They then make money from each and every service repair and warrenty repair from the time i have my vehicle until the next time i buy one. Thats good money in my eyes. like they say they make more money in 3 years of service and repair than they make on the profit of the vehicle.

if i could get $8k every 3 years from every customer i wouldnt be on this forum lol


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Holy cow 6pages in less than 2 days! 
I have to say I buy new because I feel like it. I like a new truck. When i buy new I order it so it is exactly what i want it to be. I don't mind paying extra.
Two years ago I did buy a used Dakota that was very low miles and it was priced well because of the depreciation. However, I looked within 500 miles of me and I couldn't get exactly what i wanted and equipped the way I wanted it. I got "close enough" though for the money.
That said, my main work truck, '09 Chev, 2500, loaded LTZ is what I practically live in. I figure for as much time out of my life i spend in this thing I might as well have what I want. The Dakota has become the grocery getter and errand runner. 

Bottom line, to h*ll with the math, buy whatever YOU want to buy.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TimNJ said:


> Holy cow 6pages in less than 2 days!
> I have to say I buy new because I feel like it. I like a new truck. When i buy new I order it so it is exactly what i want it to be. I don't mind paying extra.
> Two years ago I did buy a used Dakota that was very low miles and it was priced well because of the depreciation. However, I looked within 500 miles of me and I couldn't get exactly what i wanted and equipped the way I wanted it. I got "close enough" though for the money.
> That said, my main work truck, '09 Chev, 2500, loaded LTZ is what I practically live in. I figure for as much time out of my life i spend in this thing I might as well have what I want. The Dakota has become the grocery getter and errand runner.
> ...


If that was me in control of money and not the wife thats how i would be lol. lucky for me new worked out cheaper than used. plus like you say you spec it exactly how you want it.


Infact if it was me in control of the money i would have the raptor screw with the velociraptor 800 twin turbo


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

4x4 is a minimum of $4K.

Regionally it could be even up to 8K in value on a used truck.

4x2 in Colorado for instance will sell below book always. Those things are considered damaged goods, nobody wants one. I've witnessed many a customer with a beautiful trade in truck get a used car manager all excited, till they look closely and discover it's not 4x4, then they hit it back of book 5 grand because they know how long it will take them to find a buyer for it.

There are guys who have made a living in the wholesaler market doing nothing but buying 2 wheel drive trucks in Colorado and taking them to Texas and selling them and buying a 4x4 there and bringing it back to Colorado, making a profit on both ends because of the differences in the markets for 4x2 versus 4x4.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Ran the same KBB but added 4WD: $28,700.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> 4x4 is a minimum of $4K.
> 
> Regionally it could be even up to 8K in value on a used truck.
> 
> ...


 
im always amazed that anyone would by a truck in an area where snow and ice falls. 2wd as good as useless in these conditions. today i tried to pull my trailer up small hill and wheel spun. couldnt move at all until i put it in 4x4. even without trailer i couldnt get out of my estate with 2wd.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

In almost 30 years of driving, I've owned 1 4WD vehicle and only 2 FWD cars. I don't ever remember getting stuck.

I think it has more to do with knowing what you're doing with the vehicle and the situation.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

BCConstruction said:


> im always amazed that anyone would by a truck in an area where snow and ice falls. 2wd as good as useless in these conditions. today i tried to pull my trailer up small hill and wheel spun. couldnt move at all until i put it in 4x4. even without trailer i couldnt get out of my estate with 2wd.


That was a major factor in getting that Dakota. It has 4wd and i was tired of driving the wife to work in the snow. Her car, Honda S2000, useless in 1/2" of snow. Now I can just tell her, "Take the Dakota"


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> In almost 30 years of driving, I've owned 1 4WD vehicle and only 2 FWD cars. I don't ever remember getting stuck.
> 
> I think it has more to do with knowing what you're doing with the vehicle and the situation.


 
Angus let me know what you would have done to get up the hill this morning. i have been stcuk in 2wd many a time. i have soft compound tires that work very well in the snow. i wont use chains as i cant be arsed with them. there's nothing i could have done to get up that hill without 4wd. there was even a 2wd police car stuck on the hill and i know for a fact these guys run snow tires around here in winter. 4wd took me up the ice like i was on dry ground. nioght and day difference.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TimNJ said:


> That was a major factor in getting that Dakota. It has 4wd and i was tired of driving the wife to work in the snow. Her car, Honda S2000, useless in 1/2" of snow. Now I can just tell her, "Take the Dakota"


 
my wifes mazda is the same. it wont even go through an inch of snow on flat ground without losing traction and stoping.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> Angus let me know what you would have done to get up the hill this morning. i have been stcuk in 2wd many a time. i have soft compound tires that work very well in the snow. i wont use chains as i cant be arsed with them. there's nothing i could have done to get up that hill without 4wd. there was even a 2wd police car stuck on the hill and i know for a fact these guys run snow tires around here in winter. 4wd took me up the ice like i was on dry ground. nioght and day difference.


No clue. I live in flat Illinois. :laughing:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> my wifes mazda is the same. it wont even go through an inch of snow on flat ground without losing traction and stoping.



Although I did make it through 2 winters driving one of these:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> No clue. I live in flat Illinois. :laughing:


 
2wd good for you then. i come down my road last night and was doing about 5mph. truck started to slide and i couldnt do anything about it. no brake no steering no nothing. i proper puckered up when that happend. i hit some soft snow on right side of road and caught some traction. i called my bro in law after and told him how bad it was and to be careful and he said just power it when ever that happens. i was glad he wernt driving lol. also glad you didnt say power it lol :thumbsup:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Although I did make it through 2 winters driving one of these:


that looks like an mx5 or is it a nissan?

cant work out what the hell it is lol


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

1994 Mazda RX7


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Well, there is part of the problem 



BCConstruction said:


> i couldnt get out of my estate with 2wd.


You should have your servants warm that thing up for you if you live on an estate. :laughing:




angus242 said:


> Although I did make it through 2 winters driving one of these:


F'n - A brother!

Had a black one. Fastest son-of-a-*****'n car I ever owned. Bose acustimas speaker system rocked the house too! :thumbsup: I wouldn't have dared drive it in the winter though.

I bought mine from a stripper. She wanted to trade it in during the winter, the used car manager refused to even look at it so I bought it and drove it for a year before selling it. She was a stripper and her boyfriend bought it for her, he was from Saudi Arabia and now she had to move there to follow the money and she needed to dump it quick before she left. :laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Any of you guys familiar with Celestial Seasonings the tea company?

It started out here in Boulder Colorado, Mo Seagle was the founder, this was around the time he was just taking off and making some bank, so he came into the dealership and paid cash for a new RX-7, about 40K as I recall. 

He tried to return it to us a week later, he said it hurt his neck because it snapped his head back too much driving it. :laughing:

Needless to say, he didn't get to return it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> 1994 Mazda RX7


my bro bought one of them couple year ago to try and mod. he is good at his job but that engine gave him all sorts of trouble. sold it and bought a 4motion VW


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Any of you guys familiar with Celestial Seasonings the tea company?
> 
> It started out here in Boulder Colorado, Mo Seagle was the founder, this was around the time he was just taking off and making some bank, so he came into the dealership and paid cash for a new RX-7, about 40K as I recall.
> 
> ...


i had the same thing with tv's when i used to sell them. people would try and return them and say they were to big and too loud :blink:

did know a guy who bought a honda civic type r and he went through 2 engines in about 3 months. in the 3rd engine they checked the computer and found that he had shifted to wrong gear and hit 17k rpm. he had to pay for the new one out of his own money :laughing:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> F'n - A brother!
> 
> Had a black one. Fastest son-of-a-*****'n car I ever owned. Bose acustimas speaker system rocked the house too! :thumbsup: I wouldn't have dared drive it in the winter though.


There were 3 version; base, luxury and race. I had the race version. It was actually bare-bones. Nothing beyond necessary. They did that to save weight. So I didn't get the fancy Bose system. Instead, I spent a ridiculous amount of cash on a custom system. I believe there were around 12 speakers and 2 10" subs. Yeah, I was dumb.

Definitely the fastest thing I've driven. It wasn't blazing off the line (could barey spin the tires) but damn once the 2nd turbo kicked in, it was insane. I had the speedo pegged on I55 S around Bloomington, Il. I believe that was the 175mph range. I once did a trip from Chicago (Crestwood, IL) to Louisville, KY in 2 hours 40 minutes. Yes, my _average _speed was around 115. Yeah, I was dumb.

I've had some significant time behind the wheel of a Viper and I can say the RX7 was more fun to drive. I used to love when some red neck guy would come up to me at a gas station and ask "Hey buddy, how many cylinders that thing have?" My reply, "None." :laughing:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

A 2wd dually will get stuck on dry dog crap, backing down a hill.

Come on angus, man up.:laughing:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> A 2wd dually will get stuck on dry dog crap, backing down a hill.
> 
> Come on angus, man up.:laughing:


 
as long as he dont hit the dry dog crap he will be fine :thumbsup:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

angus242 said:


> Although I did make it through 2 winters driving one of these:



That's a sweet ride, I was always a fan of the RX-7. I had a Toyota Mr-2 and a Toyota Supra, both were a blast to drive, my buddies RX-7 could always take my MR-2 but my Supra would beat him flat out. The RX-7 was a better handling machine than both Toyota's.......I miss the Supra.

Mike


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