# Can I fire an electrician after he flunks rough inspection?



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Irishslave said:


> Actually I probably wasn't even supposed to remove all the chit I did. He had his crap stapled tight too in a lot of spots, *Special pinchers* and great care was needed in removal


Ah, something I can use as an excuse to jump into this thread.

Klein sidecutters. They do it all. Staples, 16p nails, plumbing strapping - no job too big, no job too small.

Oh, btw, FEMA has a standards list that's approx 2 volumes of Encyclopedia Britannica long. Sparky has to attach to sound structure.


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## WalnutBuilders (Sep 24, 2016)

Inner10 said:


> You can't fault the EC because the framing was crap. Pay the man.
> 
> You can reattach electrical wiring all day around here, you only need to be a liscence EC to add new circuitry.
> 
> Don't get involved in **** like this it won't pay well.




But why did he do the install on the crap framing? If that was me, I would have spoken up about the condition of the framing.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

WalnutBuilders said:


> But why did he do the install on the crap framing? If that was me, I would have spoken up about the condition of the framing.


Who said he didn't bring it up?

Look the guys was hired to do electrical work, not criticize the quality of the framing, that's none of his business. He did the job and it failed due to framing that isn't his fault. Pay up.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

pcplumber said:


> That work will not pass in California because the bottom plate has to be pressure-treated lumber.


It is pressure treated


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Oh, btw, FEMA has a standards list that's approx 2 volumes of Encyclopedia Britannica long. Sparky has to attach to sound structure.


Do you have a reference for that? I'm in negotiations with the EC as we speak. I would appreciate it if you could direct me


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Even if it looked like crap, if it held up to the banging it would get when nailing on boxes, how would the electrician know it was going to fail the framing inspection?

Still something missing.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> ...... Pay up.


Pay who? Someone the OP didn't hire? Why pay someone you never had an agreement with in the first place?

The issue of money is between the owner and the previous sparky.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Irishslave said:


> Do you have a reference for that? I'm in negotiations with the EC as we speak. I would appreciate it if you could direct me


No, not current.

There's a couple ways this goes - are they doing this through their flood ins?

Are they doing this through a FEMA Mitigation program?

If the work is done through a mitigation program, then there's a whole slew of standards that each trade has to conform to - how high to set appliances, conduit, wiring type...

My though? Redo the framing, move/remount devices as needed, get a new sparky to come in and sign off.

The smart management should have happened before you got there.

The original sparky was just doing what they could with what they were given to work with.

Not making excuses for anybody, just thinking about what the least painful way is to get to "done".


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Pay who? Someone the OP didn't hire? Why pay someone you never had an agreement with in the first place?
> 
> The issue of money is between the owner and the previous sparky.


That was directed at the home owner.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

UPDATE: I talked with EC today. Of course there was finger pointing and they even said they had conversations with previous carpenter {cough} about the condition of the framing....Carpenter said he would change them...he didn't. Electrician affixed anyway. Not one or two boxes I counted 20. EC said they will not assume any blame and that their work did pass the inspection...funny the card wasn't signed. So electrical rough pass is contingent on framing pass? Guess you sparks owe us real chippy's a debt of gratitude. That or either it's a joke what passes for a Carpenter or Electrician these days. 

I notice the sparks and spark related guys on here defend their brotherhood. I don't if your a stupid piece of chit....I'm gonna let you know it...I don't care who you are or how much money you have.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

txgencon said:


> Even if it looked like crap, if it held up to the banging it would get when nailing on boxes, how would the electrician know it was going to fail the framing inspection?
> 
> Still something missing.


 

Ain't nothing missing.....I'd rather live in a house wired by a real carpenter than one built by an Electrician....real simple


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> UPDATE: I talked with EC today. Of course there was finger pointing and they even said they had conversations with previous carpenter {cough} about the condition of the framing....Carpenter said he would change them...he didn't. Electrician affixed anyway. Not one or two boxes I counted 20. EC said they will not assume any blame and that their work did pass the inspection...funny the card wasn't signed. So electrical rough pass is contingent on framing pass? Guess you sparks owe us real chippy's a debt of gratitude. That or either it's a joke what passes for a Carpenter or Electrician these days.
> 
> I notice the sparks and spark related guys on here defend their brotherhood. I don't if your a stupid piece of chit....I'm gonna let you know it...I don't care who you are or how much money you have.


I bet you really gave him a piece of your mind.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> I bet you really gave him a piece of your mind.


Actually no I was real cordial, In fact I know the owner, I've had business dealings with him before....he even knew it was me when I called, my name must still be in his phone index. 

The work i did for him I think was mentioned in this thread.....They have a resort....it's like a phucking state park....custom phucking tree house w/a god damn big screen TV in it!!....Huge pavillion...big lake yada, yada. 

This firm w/o mentioning any names is not just known in my state but Florida, Kentucky, and Illinois....so would it pay to get my Irish up like I do here? No. 

Funny thing is they bill themselves as among other things specialists in water damage restoration...Ha...and some of the goings on at the resort? I was less than impressed


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> Actually no I was real cordial, In fact I know the owner, I've had business dealings with him before....he even knew it was me when I called, my name must still be in his phone index.
> 
> The work i did for him I think was mentioned in this thread.....They have a resort....it's like a phucking state park....custom phucking tree house w/a god damn big screen TV in it!!....Huge pavillion...big lake yada, yada.
> 
> ...


Yeah that's why I was being facetious. 

You just said how you don't hold back about calling people a stupid piece of crap regardless of how rich they are.

Then you pucker up because the company has lots of money and you want a piece of the pie.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> I bet you really gave him a piece of your mind.


Now that other Carpenter? He is a piece of chit....if I run into him I just might kick his ass.....he'll run from me guaranteed 

If you're contracted on one of my jobs you ain't pullin chit till everything and I mean everything is tight....no exceptions or i'll glue your god damn tongue to the buss bar


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> Now that other Carpenter? He is a piece of chit....if I run into him I just might kick his ass.....he'll run from me guaranteed
> 
> If you're contracted on one of my jobs you ain't pullin chit till everything and I mean everything is tight....no exceptions or i'll glue your god damn tongue to the buss bar


I thought your beef was with the EC?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Did that FEMA thing come into play? I know once the gubmt comes into play as mentioned as a possibility above, they can play havoc with our already tedious 700 page code book plus local amendments.

Good on you for looking out for this elderly person. :thumbsup:


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> Yeah that's why I was being facetious.
> 
> You just said how you don't hold back about calling people a stupid piece of crap regardless of how rich they are.
> 
> Then you pucker up because the company has lots of money and you want a piece of the pie.


I still let him know. Plus I ain't finished yet. I gotta call him back and let him know what the deal is. 

After talking to the customer today and hearing her side again....somebody or all body's are lying....to me....not cool 

And further I don't want chit from this EC. I'm not impressed...at all. They were difficult at the resort and they've been difficult here....Why would I use them or do work for them? Big firms often have narcissistic management and I shy away from them. i was recommended by someone else at the resort and that was how we became acquainted.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> I thought your beef was with the EC?


BOTH. The Carpenter absconded....No insurance I'll bet either


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

rselectric1 said:


> Did that FEMA thing come into play? I know once the gubmt comes into play as mentioned as a possibility above, they can play havoc with our already tedious 700 page code book plus local amendments.
> 
> Good on you for looking out for this elderly person. :thumbsup:


I didn't mention it because I don't have the pertinent information. 

I don't think our county inspector is enforcing a lot of FEMA's stuff at least on my end....Only treated plates instead of all treated (FEMA)....Regular wallboard flies instead of paperless (FEMA) except bathroom 

I think the FEMA stuff maybe just guidelines...don't know how much it's really enforced. 

And yeah this old gal is a friend of the family and she's not very good at communicating anymore...plus the original Carpenter ripped her off pretty bad....so I gotta take the best care I can....I don't do this for everybody....believe me


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> Who said he didn't bring it up?
> 
> Look the guys was hired to do electrical work, not criticize the quality of the framing, that's none of his business. * He did the job and it failed due to framing that isn't his fault. Pay up.*


If he did bring it up, makes it worse as he knew it wasn't up to snuff... then moving ahead anyway, that's on him IMHO, especially since it didn't pass...

That'd be like a mason moving ahead on bricking a skirt even though he knew the block was failing... or a sheetrocker closing the wall even though there's mold...

...and still expect to get paid when an inspector fails them for it...


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

KAP said:


> If he did bring it up, makes it worse as he knew it wasn't up to snuff... then moving ahead anyway, that's on him IMHO, especially since it didn't pass...
> 
> That'd be like a mason moving ahead on bricking a skirt even though he knew the block was failing... or a sheetrocker closing the wall even though there's mold...
> 
> ...and still expect to get paid when an inspector fails them for it...


Yep. The only other phone call I made today was to my lawyer. Of course he said defending these cases isn't worth the money you'll spend...but if they put a lien on her house to call him and he'll take care of it. 

So I took your advice and that of my wife and I'm just gonna hire a new EC


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Irishslave said:


> Yep. The only other phone call I made today was to my lawyer. Of course he said defending these cases isn't worth the money you'll spend...but if they put a lien on her house to call him and he'll take care of it.
> 
> So I took your advice and that of my wife and I'm just gonna hire a new EC


When you spoke to the original EC about the issue, he didn't offer to correct it?


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

KAP said:


> When you spoke to the original EC about the issue, he didn't offer to correct it?


Yeah but they wanted their money first. The original was 8300 to rewire and new 200 service which is pretty standard for that size house. She of course didn't wanna spend that much so they offered her an hourly agreement and they were going over the cap they had set to get to rough. This is their story.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Irishslave said:


> Yeah but they wanted their money first. The original was 8300 to rewire and new 200 service which is pretty standard for that size house. She of course didn't wanna spend that much so they offered her an hourly agreement and they were going over the cap they had set to get to rough. This is their story.


I was under the impression they were walking because they submitted the final bill after failing inspection...

If they're willing to correct it, it's in everyone's interest to let them do it (but not for MORE money)... So tell them you're taking over as GC, and will ensure they will get paid when it is corrected and passes inspection and prove it by having a check on hand from the HO that you'll provide when they actually correct it and pass inspection... shouldn't be an issue for the EC since the HO paid them up to this point and he won't have to chase payment and payment that will be a lesser amount... then you don't have to worry about getting another EC (and delaying things), re-permitting, you get an ally in the EC, and the HO is covered on all ends and doesn't have to worry about pissing matches, lawyers, courts and liens... HO trusts you, EC knows you (and no need to put yourself in the position of him perceiving you as an enemy going forward if not needed)... sounds like a no-brainer...

Win/win for everyone... and you're the man for getting it done... :thumbsup:

Good luck... 8^)


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

KAP said:


> I was under the impression they were walking because they submitted the final bill after failing inspection...
> 
> If they're willing to correct it, it's in everyone's interest to let them do it (but not for MORE money)... So tell them you're taking over as GC, and will ensure they will get paid when it is corrected and passes inspection and prove it by having a check on hand from the HO that you'll provide when they actually correct it and pass inspection... shouldn't be an issue for the EC since the HO paid them up to this point and he won't have to chase payment and payment that will be a lesser amount... then you don't have to worry about getting another EC (and delaying things), re-permitting, you get an ally in the EC, and the HO is covered on all ends and doesn't have to worry about pissing matches, lawyers, courts and liens... HO trusts you, EC knows you (and no need to put yourself in the position of him perceiving you as an enemy going forward if not needed)... sounds like a no-brainer...
> 
> ...


I wish it would work out that way but it's her money and her home and she feels like she was ripped off. Again this is an elderly friend of the family....I don't do this for everybody


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Irishslave said:


> I notice the sparks and spark related guys on here defend their brotherhood.


I'm not a sparky, though I could play one on TV. But you are flat out wrong here, Bubba. 

Have a guy to come in and do good wiring has nothing to do with whether you have crap wood for him to do it on. The wire is still good.

The red tag properly belongs to whoever provided the substrate, fixed or not. As long as the wires and fixtures are supported according to code, he did his job.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

KAP said:


> I was under the impression they were walking because they submitted the final bill after failing inspection...
> 
> If they're willing to correct it, it's in everyone's interest to let them do it (but not for MORE money)... So tell them you're taking over as GC, and will ensure they will get paid when it is corrected and passes inspection and prove it by having a check on hand from the HO that you'll provide when they actually correct it and pass inspection... shouldn't be an issue for the EC since the HO paid them up to this point and he won't have to chase payment and payment that will be a lesser amount... then you don't have to worry about getting another EC (and delaying things), re-permitting, you get an ally in the EC, and the HO is covered on all ends and doesn't have to worry about pissing matches, lawyers, courts and liens... HO trusts you, EC knows you (and no need to put yourself in the position of him perceiving you as an enemy going forward if not needed)... sounds like a no-brainer...
> 
> ...


There's that pesky little detail of him getting her check in his hand. :no: Kindly little old lady might not go for that.

I also wonder if she's got all of her wits about her, or if she might have a touch of "the old timers" and the carpenter was pulling a fast one.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> I'm not a sparky, though I could play one on TV. But you are flat out wrong here, Bubba.
> 
> Have a guy to come in and do good wiring has nothing to do with whether you have crap wood for him to do it on. The wire is still good.
> 
> The red tag properly belongs to whoever provided the substrate, fixed or not. As long as the wires and fixtures are supported according to code, he did his job.


So everyone but the electrician gets the blame?....I see 

Maybe we should blame the inspector too?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

MarkJames said:


> There's that pesky little detail of him getting her check in his hand. :no: Kindly little old lady might not go for that.
> 
> I also wonder if she's got all of her wits about her, or if she might have a touch of "the old timers" and the carpenter was pulling a fast one.


Well that's a possibility, but it seems she didn't have a problem paying up to the point where the inspection failed...

Considering she was hosed by the first contractor, the original EC installed over work they knew in advance the condition of the framing, and then failed their inspection (but wanted to paid in full anyway), and apparently everyone had been paid up to that point, I'd say the HO had good reason to feel like a fast one was being pulled on her...




Tinstaafl said:


> I'm not a sparky, though I could play one on TV. But you are flat out wrong here, Bubba.
> 
> Have a guy to come in and do good wiring has nothing to do with whether you have crap wood for him to do it on. The wire is still good.
> 
> The red tag properly belongs to whoever provided the substrate, fixed or not. As long as the wires and fixtures are supported according to code, he did his job.




Irishslave said:


> UPDATE: I talked with EC today. Of course there was finger pointing and* they even said they had conversations with previous carpenter {cough} about the condition of the framing....Carpenter said he would change them...he didn't. Electrician affixed anyway.*


When you take it upon yourself to install good over bad KNOWING in advance it's bad, and voice it, it's kind of hard to then say it's someone else's fault when you choose to do it anyway... if that's the case, the original EC would have no need to bring it up to the contractor in the first place...

But the biggest indicator is the electrical rough didn't pass and from what Irish has posted, it's not like the original EC was an unknown quantity in town...

My guess would be that the inspector would have also failed the electrical rough if the EC installed over mold even if the stud were structurally good... once the walls are open, whoever had their hands on it last usually gets the brunt because they see what's existing...


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

KAP said:


> My guess would be that the inspector would have also failed the electrical rough if the EC installed over mold even if the stud were structurally good... once the walls are open, whoever had their hands on it last usually gets the brunt because they see what's existing...


Yep and this was an obvious situation. FEMA disaster relief teams had gutted the lower level and up 4' on the upper level. Studs on upper level were sound as the water had only reached this height once. The lower level had been flooded many times but this was the first time it was gutted 

I removed another 15 cu. yards or so of stud debris. It all had to come out. I knew it instinctively...it was a common sense issue. The moldy smell has improved significantly. I gave the homeowner some paint and the old gal wire brushed primed and painted the lally columns and beam......NOW it's ready for Romex....Clean, tight, and right


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

I don't know where you're located, but around here you couldn't get a new permit for the work until the existing permit was closed out somehow (completed, cancelled, transferred), which is very difficult to have happen if the existing contractor doesn't want it to happen. You'd be breaking the law doing that work without a new permit, naming you or the new electrician.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I think the HO could get it under their name without issue. I believe the HO could get it canceled as well. Probably take some leg work though.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

KAP said:


> My guess would be that the inspector would have also failed the electrical rough if the EC installed over mold even if the stud were structurally good... once the walls are open, whoever had their hands on it last usually gets the brunt because they see what's existing...


The NEC says nothing about rot or mold. Best I can make out from the hearsay we're presented with is that the sparky was responsible enough to try getting the framing fixed, but was told to go ahead anyway. 

Far as I can tell, the inspection failure had nothing to do with the quality of the electrical work. That was just a handle for the inspector to require other issues to be fixed.

If indeed that's the case, the man should be paid.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> The NEC says nothing about rot or mold. Best I can make out from the hearsay we're presented with is that the sparky was responsible enough to try getting the framing fixed, but was told to go ahead anyway.
> 
> Far as I can tell, the inspection failure had nothing to do with the quality of the electrical work. That was just a handle for the inspector to require other issues to be fixed.
> 
> If indeed that's the case, the man should be paid.


The NEC and the NEC only governs everything sparkys do? Gee if only it were that way for the rest of us and we didn't have to use anything but a code book to govern our doings. If you saw the condition of this framing it was obvious. Apparently though Electricians have a God complex and can do their work irrespective of any extenuating circumstances. 

Moreover, I didn't hire them nor would I. This situation would not have occurred had I been in control.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> The NEC says nothing about rot or mold. Best I can make out from the hearsay we're presented with is that the sparky was responsible enough to try getting the framing fixed, but was told to go ahead anyway.


Where did you get from what was posted that he was told to go ahead anyway? It said the EC had conversations with the previous contractor about the condition of the framing, who said he would fix it and didn't and the EC affixed anyway knowing in advance the condition...

The argument of saying the NEC says nothing about rot or mold as a defense for an EC who should know better (and did as evidenced by his advanced discussions otherwise why have them to begin with) is just as ridiculous as a painter noting that there is water damage on a wall to a contractor before painting, the contractor saying he will fix it, doesn't, and the painter going ahead and painting anyway... after all, he was hired to paint not sheetrock/spackle or fix the substrate... 




Tinstaafl said:


> Far as I can tell, the inspection failure had nothing to do with the quality of the electrical work. That was just a handle for the inspector to require other issues to be fixed.
> 
> If indeed that's the case, the man should be paid.


Why should the HO, who hired the expert to perform a responsible and professional installation of their products and services, be responsible for paying an EC TWICE for the same work when the EC voiced his concerns in advance of doing the work? If you choose to install over a turd, over your own voiced concerns, that's on a you...

Since the HO is paying the EC, at a minimum, if the contractor didn't fix the issue the EC himself voiced concern over, the EC should have brought it to the attention of the HO and that he couldn't move forward until it was corrected...

And shouldn't have IMHO... we wouldn't be having this discussion at all if he had been watching after the HO's best interest as the professional and done the responsible thing in the first place...

The rest is just defending hack tactics by an EC who should (and does) know better while causing an elderly HO unnecessary grief...


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Let me see if I can restate this. The fact remains the electric did not pass. NEC or other doesn't matter....the work has to be removed. The members to which the work was attached have to be replaced. Then the work must be reattached in order for it to pass. 

Now if the work in any fashion has to be redone that indicates to me something was wrong with it. This seems to be the union mentality "Not my job"


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

...


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> Let me see if I can restate this. The fact remains the electric did not pass. NEC or other doesn't matter....the work has to be removed. The members to which the work was attached have to be replaced. Then the work must be reattached in order for it to pass.
> 
> Now if the work in any fashion has to be redone that indicates to me something was wrong with it. This seems to be the union mentality "Not my job"


Union mentally or not framing isn't his job.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

The Code DOES matter. If it's failed, the inspector must cite a code violation.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> More likely, it's because everything thinks what we do is easy-peasy. After all, there's an orange book down at Home Depot that will teach you everything you need to know, isn't there?


Compared to holding a wormdrive or nail gun all day long it is....What's a pair of pliers or screw driver weigh? a few ounces? pound for pound I'd say it's a hell of a lot easier.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Irishslave said:


> Compared to holding a wormdrive or nail gun all day long it is....What's a pair of pliers or screw driver weigh? a few ounces? pound for pound I'd say it's a hell of a lot easier.


It's a different set of skills and knowledge base. I have the utmost respect for electricians.


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## mtb (Oct 11, 2012)

Irishslave said:


> The savior. It's open ended. I know the homeowner personally. Is there something she is not telling me? yes possible. She may not even remember certain things. She's 80 years old.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Out here plumbing and electric go in before framing so they can catch sawzall happy plumbers.

Still shouldn't have pulled wire through junk studs, but if the homeowner or more likely in this case carpenter/GC said it was ready... I'd get payed upfront. 

Did the carpenter get payed? A good GC has a purpose... sometimes.

-Dave


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> Compared to holding a wormdrive or nail gun all day long it is....What's a pair of pliers or screw driver weigh? a few ounces? pound for pound I'd say it's a hell of a lot easier.


Typical muscle-head response. Thinks the construction trade is about brawn and not brain. If this is your perception of what we do, then apparently you ain't smart enough to do it.

I rest my case, Your Honor.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Having read the 6 pages of this thread, and, not having been at this place when certain discussions happened, I would say the EC needs to get paid.........but.........If he really did tell the HO or GC or whoever was in charge that the framing was crap, the wood was rotten, etc, but he was told to do the electrical anyway. then he did his job and deserves to get paid. 

Now, I would know about 1 out of 10 contractors that would have said NO, I'm not doing anything until this issue is fixed. 

Here's an analogy. You take your car in and tell the mechanic you want the transmission fixed. He tells you that the car sounds like it's about ready to throw a rod.........You tell him "I don't care" just fix the transmission. He fixes it, you drive a mile and the engine throws a rod. You have the car towed back and tell the mechanic you want your money back cus the car doesn't run anymore......so now, who's fault is it?


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> More likely, it's because everything thinks what we do is easy-peasy. After all, there's an orange book down at Home Depot that will teach you everything you need to know, isn't there?


You know, I am desperate for some trained help. Any way I can get that monkey's name and phone number :laughing:


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I was leafing through a Stanley "advanced wiring" book at my folks place the other day. Even with knowing what they're writing about (and such nice pics), there's a whole lot of experience that cannot be conveyed to the reader. It's a strange thing to read, because I can imagine folks getting themselves into a whole heap of trouble with a book like that.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

cwatbay said:


> Having read the 6 pages of this thread, and, not having been at this place when certain discussions happened, I would say the EC needs to get paid.........but.........If he really did tell the HO or GC or whoever was in charge that the framing was crap, the wood was rotten, etc, but he was told to do the electrical anyway. then he did his job and deserves to get paid.
> 
> Now, I would know about 1 out of 10 contractors that would have said NO, I'm not doing anything until this issue is fixed.
> 
> Here's an analogy. You take your car in and tell the mechanic you want the transmission fixed. He tells you that the car sounds like it's about ready to throw a rod.........You tell him "I don't care" just fix the transmission. He fixes it, you drive a mile and the engine throws a rod. You have the car towed back and tell the mechanic you want your money back cus the car doesn't run anymore......so now, who's fault is it?


The transmission place I go to doesn't do patch work. Only complete rebuilds. So if the top end gears are the only ones that are shot and you say just fix that, I don't want a complete rebuild, they will just tell you to go somewhere else. There's always a choice to be made.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Trying to figure out how an EC should get paid when what he was hired to do didn't pass inspection and he hasn't corrected the problem... we can all speculate all day long as to the the reason it didn't pass but the electrical inspector who was actually there and saw what was involved made that call... if it wasn't the right call, the EC would be able to dispute it, which apparently isn't the case... until it's corrected, why should the elderly HO who hired the licensed professional be on the hook to pay for work AGAIN that didn't pass inspection in the first place?

Love our subs, and have great relationships and am also a big advocate in paying them right away because we all work for a living, but if I hired on a new sub I didn't know for a project and it didn't pass inspection, unless it's a minor issue, there's no check until it does...


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## calmod (Aug 16, 2011)

*rough framing inspection*

In California there is no rough framing inspection until the mechanical trades are ready for rough inspection. It's way too easy for a mechanical sub to compromise framing especially plumbers and HVAC. It's not smart to attach anything to those studs but who knows what was said to the electrician as there doesn't seem to be a GC in sight. I run into all kinds of jobs with bad GC's or the home owner acting as their own GC. I earn my money by running the job but a lot of people don't think there's any value in a GC and that's what happens. If i was the electrician I would reset boxes and charge for my time. I write contracts so payment is due after passing certain inspections. I work with the same subs all the time and they know how I work and that I pay on time and in full. I'm a hell of a carpenter and a ****ty electrician so I pay the people that know. 
Everybody is happy


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Typical muscle-head response. Thinks the construction trade is about brawn and not brain. If this is your perception of what we do, then apparently you ain't smart enough to do it.
> 
> I rest my case, Your Honor.


Er uh No. Muscle Head? I'm almost 60. Muscle days are long gone. Carpenter work is more physically demanding. However, the brain work all depends on what it is exactly you do. Grunt work is grunt work, planning the grunts work is another matter. I'm the son of an engineer....not a truck driver. I think 35 years in this I have a perception of what you do. Plus I read the home depot book too :laughing:


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

UPDATE: Talked with another EC today. He asked who was in there before. I told him who. His reply? "I've been in behind them before" and "If I'm busy I have a list of EC's I recommend....they aren't one of them" 

This coupled with reviews I've read from employees (that's really the best place to get the skinny the employees) and the work I did for them indicates their management style which is pressure on estimators to sell, pressure on installers to complete...all leading to performance issues. 

As far as them being paid....that ain't my problem...all I know is I am. 

I will deal with some smaller shop always. They appreciate the work and the string to the owner is much shorter. 

Don't know why this drug out and everybody got butt hurt....but none of it's my fault anyway...i would never have hired them and this wouldn't have happened on my watch and that's that


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> I was leafing through a Stanley "advanced wiring" book at my folks place the other day. Even with knowing what they're writing about (and such nice pics), there's a whole lot of experience that cannot be conveyed to the reader. It's a strange thing to read, because I can imagine folks getting themselves into a whole heap of trouble with a book like that.


I agree with that. All these books are written so the writer can make money. If a reader thinks he can perform something without having seen it done he's straight up bat chit and even then seeing it done once isn't enough. Live it and learn it. I worked for an EC for about a year and a half years ago as a grunt. Do I know what a master does? hell no but I could with just a few more trips around the block handle residential. Trouble is there are changes and omissions every couple of years. If you're going by 2002 NEC....you might be eating a few things when the inspector arrives


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I had to shove the can up and place a backer to screw the board to . 

Then pull the can back down . No one will ever be the wiser!! 

Did I throw a fit about It ? Nope! :no: I fixed It ! And I will get paid for It!!!!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> Er uh No. Muscle Head? I'm almost 60. Muscle days are long gone. Carpenter work is more physically demanding. However, the brain work all depends on what it is exactly you do. Grunt work is grunt work, planning the grunts work is another matter. I'm the son of an engineer....not a truck driver. I think 35 years in this I have a perception of what you do. Plus I read the home depot book too :laughing:


You obviously have never done electrical work. So you're basically pissing down your own pantleg.

Oh, and I'm 58 *and still working*. I guess lugging around that nail gun a few hours a day kinda wore you out, huh? Yet I'm still lugging around 1/2" right-angle drills, sawzalls, core drills, demo hammers, 32' extension ladders, 22' temp poles, 120-circuit 600amp 3ph panels, you name it. 

It ain't all t-strippers and 10-in-1 screwdrivers, old man.

Maybe it seems like grunt work to you, but I'd like to see you do a proper service calculation for a $15mil hotel. Or figure the OCD for a pair of 50HP 480v fire pumps. Or even wire up a simple Ansul system for a restaurant kitchen hood.

Then again, maybe it seems like grunt work to you because you simply can't comprehend what it takes to 'plan out' the grunt work.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

480sparky said:


> You obviously have never done electrical work. So you're basically pissing down your own pantleg.
> 
> Oh, and I'm 58 *and still working*. I guess lugging around that nail gun a few hours a day kinda wore you out, huh? Yet I'm still lugging around 1/2" right-angle drills, sawzalls, core drills, demo hammers, 32' extension ladders, 22' temp poles, 120-circuit 600amp 3ph panels, you name it.
> 
> It ain't all t-strippers and 10-in-1 screwdrivers, old man.


Tell him to go take the test ! He might pass It third go round! 

:whistling I know Class A contractors That also hold master Electrical license ..They say the class A License test was a breeze !


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

blacktop said:


> Tell him to go take the test ! He might pass It third go round!
> 
> :whistling I know Class A contractors That also hold master Electrical license ..They say the class A License test was a breeze !


Of course it was. _Anyone_ can add and subtract 16 and 24 in their head. That's all carpenters do, isn't it? 









































Shoot, they don't even have to do that...... it's on their tape measures now! :laughing:


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Of course it was. _Anyone_ can add and subtract 16 and 24 in their head. That's all carpenters do, isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The math on these new exams are crazy. One load calculation by hand during the test can take nearly 45 minutes even with a calculator. My last one was earlier this year and I thought my brain was going to explode again.:laughing:

I was wondering during the 4 hour exam if 7-11 was hiring.:jester:

Passed with 88%.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

rselectric1 said:


> The math on these new exams are crazy. One load calculation by hand during the test can take nearly 45 minutes even with a calculator. My last one was earlier this year and I thought my brain was going to explode again.:laughing:
> 
> I was wondering during the 4 hour exam if 7-11 was hiring.:jester:
> 
> Passed with 88%.


A friend of mine took the test twice . And failed !

He said the second time he took the the test He got all the chit wrong he got right on the first exam !


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

blacktop said:


> A friend of mine took the test twice . And failed !
> 
> He said the second time he took the the test He got all the chit wrong he got right on the first exam !


I believe that. Most of the test usually involves things that we rarely use, but this last one was a nice refresher. It's almost all math.

Three guys in the last one started getting agitated and walked out. One of them even yelled at the proctor of the exam saying he's been doing electrical work for years and never needed to know any of this before. Good riddance to another pretender. You can't just hook up wires and change them around until everything seems to work OK. There are actual reasons for every one of the thousands of rules and exceptions in our 7-8 hundred page code book. Then the local amendments come in and they delete code numbers and put a bunch of extra requirements in based on their individual town.

I have only seen a total of ONE house that I worked on where the wiring was perfect from the last or even original EC. Once the boss with the knowledge leaves, it's apparently no different than anywhere else. They get lazy and sloppy. A lot of things get missed. Where it usually affects the HO is when they go to remodel and the original omissions get noticed by the next guy in.

Not to mention all the handy hacks that make things worse between the original CO and the new project. That is always a mess, and real electricians can tell if somebody has worked on the system that had no business doing so.

Geez, this turned into a vent! Sorry.:jester:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> I just can't wrap my head around that. With NM, you essentially poke a few holes and pull a piece of string through. No metal bending, no pre/post-cutting to precise lengths, no issues with getting a rigid length into several studs in a row, no problem turning a corner without tools.
> 
> How the heck can it be faster? :blink:


There's tons of tricks you learn quickly. And you only get faster and better the more you do. 

BTW, why are you using string with NM?


Plus, you're assuming there's only two or three wires in each raceway. When you plan effeciently, you can run multiple circuits through the same pipe. So instead of running 3-4 NM cables, you pipe once and pull 8-12 THHNs.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> There's tons of tricks you learn quickly. And you only get faster and better the more you do.
> 
> BTW, why are you using string with NM?


Because there's tons of tricks you learn quickly. :laughing:

But seriously, NM is the equivalent of pulling string. With conduit, you first have to put that in place and then pull the string. That has to take longer, no matter how many tricks you have up your sleeve.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Nice edit while I was typing. :whistling: :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Because there's tons of tricks you learn quickly. :laughing:
> 
> But seriously, NM is the equivalent of pulling string. With conduit, you first have to put that in place and then pull the string. That has to take longer, no matter how many tricks you have up your sleeve.


Pull _what_ string? Why do I need a string in the raceway?

If you're using a string, you got trained wrong.




Oh, and let the rest of us peons know where you get 14, 12 and 10 NM with 4-12 conductors in it.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Many times it's a job spec.
> 
> And it doesn't take any longer that flex.
> 
> ...


Job spec I get, but no way you can hard pipe faster than running flex.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Job spec I get, but no way you can hard pipe faster than running flex.


None are so blind as those who refuse to see.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Oh, and let the rest of us peons know where you get 14, 12 and 10 NM with 4-12 conductors in it.


At the string store. 

Obviously there's a point at which raceways excel for multiconductor, but there's not a lot of that in residential work.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> None are so blind as those who refuse to see.


I'd race ya.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> I just can't wrap my head around that. With NM, you essentially poke a few holes and pull a piece of string through. No metal bending, no pre/post-cutting to precise lengths, no issues with getting a rigid length into several studs in a row, no problem turning a corner without tools.
> 
> How the heck can it be faster? :blink:


With EMT you poke a few holes and pull a bunch of "strings".

Bending becomes second nature. With proper box layout I only need to mark the EMT for 95% of the install. I know the distance knockouts boxes from the layout. 

Getting full lengths of EMT through stud bays is not an issue, much easier than most imagine. Ceiling/floor joist it is more difficult due to the no drill zones, still not to bad. Plan as much as possible so you don't have to cross joists. 

As I said, I don't install much NM (less than 50' a year). I hate the plastic boxes, having to fasten NM centered on the studs, stripping the sheath/jacket, connecting the grounds is all foreign to me. I'm a native Chicagoan, EMT is what I know. 

EMT is not as difficult as it appears to be. 

Tom


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

tjbnwi said:


> All we use in the Chicagoland area. Very easy to do.
> 
> Tom


I learn something new every day. I suppose it is harder for someone to drive nails through the conduit.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> I'd race ya.


If that's the only way to prove it to you, sure.

But until then, you'll just have to accept the fact that simply because you are untrained, slow and inefficient, not everyone else is.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If that's the only way to prove it to you, sure.
> 
> But until then, you'll just have to accept the fact that simply because you are untrained, slow and inefficient, not everyone else is.


I'm not arguing the fact that you can pipe emt faster than myself. I'm arguing the fact that a pipe that does not need to be bent what-so-ever is faster to run inside walls than a pipe that has to be bent.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> I'm not arguing the fact that you can pipe emt faster than myself. I'm arguing the fact that a pipe that does not need to be bent what-so-ever is faster to run inside walls than a pipe that has to be bent.


Um.......... so you only run EMT on the outside of walls just because it's quicker and easier than bending it and putting it in the walls?

I'd really like to see you sell that to your customers. "Yes, Ma'am. I run EMT. But I won't install it until the walls are up and painted. Then I'll slap my pipe and boxes on the wall........... Why? Well, it's just quicker that way............. Yes, I know it will look like chit, but it's faster for me because I don't want to learn how to install pipe inside walls................"


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

pcplumber said:


> I learn something new every day. I suppose it is harder for someone to drive nails through the conduit.


Finish/trim nails will most often deflect, framing nails will penetrate the EMT.

Another tidbit about Chicago---the only person who can get an electrical permit in the City of Chicago is a Chicago licensed electrician. A homeowner cannot get a permit to do electrical work on their own home/property in Chicago. 

Tom


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Um.......... so you only run EMT on the outside of walls just because it's quicker and easier than bending it and putting it in the walls?
> 
> I'd really like to see you sell that to your customers. "Yes, Ma'am. I run EMT. But I won't install it until the walls are up and painted. Then I'll slap my pipe and boxes on the wall........... Why? Well, it's just quicker that way............. Yes, I know it will look like chit, but it's faster for me because I don't want to learn how to install pipe inside walls................"


No, I said flex was faster to install inside walls than EMT.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

480sparky said:


> Um.......... so you only run EMT on the outside of walls just because it's quicker and easier than bending it and putting it in the walls?
> 
> I'd really like to see you sell that to your customers. "Yes, Ma'am. I run EMT. But I won't install it until the walls are up and painted. Then I'll slap my pipe and boxes on the wall........... Why? Well, it's just quicker that way............. Yes, I know it will look like chit, but it's faster for me because I don't want to learn how to install pipe inside walls................"


I mean, not everyone lives in Chicago, so the need for EMT in wall exists in a very small fraction of this country.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

I can't see how you can bend and install 3/4", 1" and 1-1/2" EMT inside walls without a massive amount of couplings. We run a lot of 3/4 inch flex even for residential homes and even flex can be difficult to work with when you have sharp turns in tight spaces.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

pcplumber said:


> I can't see how you can bend and install 3/4", 1" and 1-1/2" EMT inside walls without a massive amount of couplings. We run a lot of 3/4 inch flex even for residential homes and even flex can be difficult to work with when you have sharp turns in tight spaces.


1½"? Who the he11 runs 1½" EMT? 1" isn't really that common in walls either unless it's a 70-amp-plus 3-phase load. ½ and ¾" is the bulk of our in-wall work.

And again, until you actually do it it seems baffling. But it ain't rocket surgery.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> I mean, not everyone lives in Chicago, so the need for EMT in wall exists in a very small fraction of this country.


and surprisingly homes are still standing with romex in the walls, how could that be?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

rrk said:


> and surprisingly homes are still standing with romex in the walls, how could that be?


Because it's safe if installed correctly.

The big savings in time is pulling wire and making up boxes.

We have a rainbow of colors to pick from to keep all the circuits, travelers and other items straight when using EMT.

I had to use all NM on a kitchen remodel last month and have done it prior when it's legal. I'd just as soon run pipe. 

As others have said, it's second nature and believe it or not, really goes faster than the few I've done in romex.


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