# Porcelain tile popping up.



## buletbob (Mar 16, 2008)

Hello guys,
I have a custmer who"s 1st flr was under salt water for about 4-5 hrs from sandy here on Long Island.
The task that I'm upgainst is trying to prove to the insurance companyies engineer that the flood caused the kitchen floor tile to start poping. 
The floor tiles are A patern of three 12x24, 8x8, 12 x12.
they are porcleain tile set in tin set over a 1"- 1-1/4" mud base with riandaint heat pex inside mud. over wire lath.
I was able to pull a lose tile up once i was able to clean the grout out from between the tiles. I was surprized to see that the back of the tile had no trace of thin set on back of it. but on the mud there was a perfect imprint of the back of the tile with almost 100% coverage. 
My question is, do you think that being the thin set was under water it could have softened and in such a way that any movement ( walking on it) on the tile could of broke the bond between the tile and thinset.
the mud base seems to be in great shape and the thinset still bonded to the mud. 
any ideas are greatly welcomed. thanks guys


----------



## buletbob (Mar 16, 2008)

buletbob said:


> Hello guys,
> I have a custmer who"s 1st flr was under salt water for about 4-5 hrs from sandy here on Long Island.
> The task that I'm upgainst is trying to prove to the insurance companyies engineer that the flood caused the kitchen floor tile to start poping.
> The floor tiles are A patern of three 12x24, 8x8, 12 x12.
> ...


the floor area is 500sf , with $90K of custom cherry cabinets and granite counters with tile back splash on top. floor goes under cabinets.


----------



## buletbob (Mar 16, 2008)

Anybody??
I can not believe a site with all contractors has never run into a situation of this type before. flooding in general.


----------



## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

Hate to tell you Bob, but the entire floor should be removed. That's mud and all... 

That mud was most certainly soaked with the skanky Great South Bay saltwater, along with everything it picked up along the way. (dirt, oil, sewage) 

I pulled out a few mud jobs that were soaked because of Sandy, and even a few months after the storm, they were still wet and now moldy underneath. 

If the kitchen is so large and expensive, dont let the homeowners half-ass it... It's surely nasty under there after all this time. My granite guy charges $40 sqft to remove, polish, store and replace the counters, and it'll take you two days to remove and replace the base cabs.


----------



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

I agree that it all needs to come up if it was exposed to dirty water.

I would be surprised if the water had anything to do with the tile popping unless it's on a wood subfloor or an improper subfloor.

The situation with clean tiles coming up sounds more like the thinset had skinned when they set the tile and they weren't backbuttering it. Hence the impression of the back but no adhesion. I see it all the time when demoing tile.


----------



## buletbob (Mar 16, 2008)

Thanks for the reply splinter. 
Thats what my first proposal was for. ( complete floor rip out.) now to fine tune it.
I do think We may have crossed paths here on the Island.LOL. there is a company here up in Huntington that goes under the name Splinters, would that be u?


----------



## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

Nope... Splinters is a roofing/siding company in Huntington... Im a few towns over in Northport.


----------



## buletbob (Mar 16, 2008)

EthanB said:


> I agree that it all needs to come up if it was exposed to dirty water.
> 
> I would be surprised if the water had anything to do with the tile popping unless it's on a wood subfloor or an improper subfloor.
> 
> The situation with clean tiles coming up sounds more like the thinset had skinned when they set the tile and they weren't backbuttering it. Hence the impression of the back but no adhesion. I see it all the time when demoing tile.


I agree with you


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

buletbob said:


> Anybody??
> I can not believe a site with all contractors has never run into a situation of this type before. flooding in general.


Most of us are just getting up...or in my case, came inside after working on some truck wiring.

Agree with the others above, for hygiene/health purposes alone. I'd also imagine there was a bit of swelling in the wood structure/framework too.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

If your tiles are lifting up with a little water they weren't laid properly.

Was there a bond coat of thinset on top of the mud bed?


----------



## buletbob (Mar 16, 2008)

Yes the thin-set was still adhered to the mud base.


----------



## sepindustries (Jun 2, 2013)

it definitely needs to come up. the ins cos engineer should understand that when the ground floods it expands, moves then contracts, all of the floor has definitely moved. I agree with the guy above the thinset set up too long and or a little bit of chalky dust on the back of a dry tile will cause it not to bond. are they all coming up this way or just some? the grout and gravity has probably been all that has held this particular tile in place till the floor moved with the water now its loose. ultimately the flooding caused the damage the engineer cannot deny this he/she will only try to say there may have been loose tiles before the flood and try to say the people are milking the policy to get a new floor. its just like every other insurance policy they will do whatever they can to keep from being liable.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I can tell you that we are replacing a flag stone patio which is delaminating only in the areas the client treated with salt in the winter. If I was you Id research the affect of sodium on the bonding compounds of the mortar. 

Start with attempting to identify what the mortar bed is comprised of. Take a sample down to the local college, they might help. I took a concrete compositon course at Sinclair years ago. I'm sure a similar professor could quickly and accurately identify the issues you are having. 

I'd push for new cabinets too. Feel free to send me the old ones. Now get busy and do your own research...


----------



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Can I assume the mudbed is over a wood subfloor with joists? Or is the mudbed on a slab? Any grout joints cracked? How many loose tile?


----------



## buletbob (Mar 16, 2008)

olzo55 said:


> Can I assume the mudbed is over a wood subfloor with joists? Or is the mudbed on a slab? Any grout joints cracked? How many loose tile?


Yes, the first post has all the specs.
The I joists were underwater the subfloor also. 
I believe that softened the floor system that when you walked a crossed the floor any deflection in base would brake bond. You can here the tile pop. Then another
I'm ripping the entire floor up.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Its more about long term affects of the flooding not actual current damage. The insurance company would love to make it a current damage claim. I'd argue potential future loss and the benefit of doing it right the first time.


----------



## buletbob (Mar 16, 2008)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Its more about long term affects of the flooding not actual current damage. The insurance company would love to make it a current damage claim. I'd argue potential future loss and the benefit of doing it right the first time.


I agree.


----------



## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

Where is the home? With $90K in kitchen cabinetry, I'll assume it's an expensive home... Why such a long wait to get it repaired?


----------



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

My point is the wood joists would swell, cracking grout or popping the bond. Some adjusters would check the grout joint cracking inorder to determine the cause of the loose tile. So are the joints cracked or not? You can have hollow sounding tiles without cracked joints.


----------



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

I joists with osb cores? They would swell a lot. And I joists usually are used for longer spans. Maybe the floor is actually sinking due to the weight of saturated mudbed+tile


----------



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

My money is on the weight of the saturated mudbed,tile and cabinets with granite tops causing the I joists to bend, shearing the tile off the mudbed.
I wouldn't remove anything until they approve the removal. You might need your own engineering study.


----------



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Engineered Wood Products Exposed to Flooding . 4/2012 - Structure Magazine.

Check it out or Google search topic.


----------



## buletbob (Mar 16, 2008)

Splinter said:


> Where is the home? With $90K in kitchen cabinetry, I'll assume it's an expensive home... Why such a long wait to get it repaired?


 Location=The House is located in the village of Babylon, 

Expensive Home= high end area on the water. there spending over 1million on a home then knocking them down to build bigger. 

Why SO long to start.= we are going back and forth with the insurance company, and there engineer who they brought up from GA. and is back down there now. there phone calls and Text messages are very slow to respond back.

The kitchen floor is the only item left to repair, until the home owner pointed out most of the inside corners of the drywall on the outside walls have the spackle tape buckleing up at the ceiling line, and some corner beads are starting to show signs of poping at the floor line.
I will post pictures. later this evening..


----------



## buletbob (Mar 16, 2008)

olzo55 said:


> My money is on the weight of the saturated mudbed,tile and cabinets with granite tops causing the I joists to bend, sheering the tile off the mudbed.
> I wouldn't remove anything until they approve the removal. You might need your own engineering study.


That is what I have come to decide. I was in the crawl space with a laser level and shot all girders and outside walls and found 1 pile cap down 1/2" and a few of the I joists are compressed at the ends. plus the center span of the joist has deflected down in some areas as much as 3/4" on a 16' span. 
I tried googling your link on structure magazine and came up empty. will try again later. thanks.


----------



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

I Googled"deflection of flooded I joists".

"Engineered wood products exposed to floodwaters".
WWW.structuremag.org/article.aspxarticleID=1432

And this article on the search list: "Creep of wood I joists exposed to abnormally high moisture conditions."

FemaInfo.us " Flood insurance common problems".


----------



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

There is an article that said joists can deflect when wet and temporary support should be installed until dry or floor would stay in deflected condition. Quickly drying helps the most and they recommended removing floor tiles. You have a very wet mudbed that won't quickly dry out. I'll try to locate the article.


----------



## buletbob (Mar 16, 2008)

found the artical. thanks 
.


----------

