# customer wants to steal my subcontractors....



## Handyman33 (Jul 30, 2008)

I have done some previous work for a client of mine and some of that included re-doing her hardwood floors. My flooring contractor did a great job and I made some money off of it since he gives me a small volume discount. 

She now, months later, wants his info and number so that she can price some stuff and give it to her "neighbors". I really have no idea if she wants it for herself or what her motives are. 

I have not responded to her and feel like telling her "hell no". I feel like I have put in some considerable work and effort myself finding this contractor. My sub is the 4th flooring contractor that I have used and found that does great work for a reasonable price. 

On the other hand, I'm not sure if I am being silly or selfish. I don't want to cheat my sub out of work or piss off a potential returning customer. 

So what do you guys think? What do i tell her? What have you done in the past?


----------



## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Unless there is something there for you to be working on AND be able to call in the floor guy, just give the subs name and number to the client. They'll be pleased you recommended a top notch guy, the sub will be pleased you got him some work, the end result should be both of these people now remembering you and calling on you when they have something to offer. Good subs will reciprocate, good clients will be loyal when they need your services.


----------



## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Sounds fishy to me.

Why is she pricing stuff out for neighbors???? :blink:

But then again, you are a handyman, and she may be looking for a flooring contractor for specific jobs and views you as a middleman, and is trying to cut costs.

You could try and ask for her "neighbors" contact info and tell her you will personally pass along the information to your flooring subcontractor.


----------



## mhome (May 23, 2010)

Simply call your sub tell him that somebody from that neighborhood is going to call you and tell him to get you % of the job for you.
Tell your "old" customer that you will be more than happy to provider her/him with floor guy number for their neighbor.
Always works for me.


----------



## jimAKAblue (Aug 15, 2010)

Handyman33 said:


> I have done some previous work for a client of mine and some of that included re-doing her hardwood floors. My flooring contractor did a great job and I made some money off of it since he gives me a small volume discount.
> 
> She now, months later, wants his info and number so that she can price some stuff and give it to her "neighbors". I really have no idea if she wants it for herself or what her motives are.
> 
> ...


Are you a handyman service or a general contractor? How do your custumers think of you in those terms?


----------



## contractorcoach (Sep 14, 2010)

Good Advice worth its weight in gold!

The Contractor Coach


----------



## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

mhome said:


> Simply call your sub tell him that somebody from that neighborhood is going to call you and tell him to get you % of the job for you.
> Tell your "old" customer that you will be more than happy to provider her/him with floor guy number for their neighbor.
> Always works for me.


 
I tell all my Subs the same thing, I will give you the Client info for % of the Project, My Advertising $ Brought in this Client. + I will undoubtedly have to make an Appearance should any thing go Wrong. 

If I catch any of my Sub's working for my Client's on the sly (and I will find out) I will no longer Provide you with any future work.

Problem Solved!


----------



## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

Handyman33 said:


> I have done some previous work for a client of mine and some of that included re-doing her hardwood floors. My flooring contractor did a great job and I made some money off of it since he gives me a small volume discount.
> 
> She now, months later, wants his info and number so that she can price some stuff and give it to her "neighbors". I really have no idea if she wants it for herself or what her motives are.
> 
> ...


How is the customer trying to "steal" your sub contractors? Do the subs work exclusively for you? Do you have an exclusivity agreeement with the customer?

Sounds as if you are po'd that the customer is trying to eliminate you, and hence your mark up. If you are scared of losing your scratch on the project, ask the sub for a referral fee.

We hired a GC to build our transfer station a few years back. In turn, he used a sub to wire the place. We now need some additional electrical work - I called the sparky direct. Using your logic I should call the GC instead.

Yes, you are being selfish.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

I bought some stuff at an Ace hardware store yesterday. If I see a True Value hardware ad, are they trying to 'steal' me?



As an EC who works as a sub for several GCs, I can tell you I don't belong to anyone. I am not the GCs property, and I can work for whoever I damn well please.

Given that, I don't go behind builders' backs to try to 'get' to the client. But if one of their clients asks me for a card, or want me to give them a price, then that is outside the relationship I have with the builder.

A builder/GC does not command any sub, they simply hire them. _If you don't like they way they run their business, then quit whining like a baby and find someone else. _ Pretty soon, you'll figure out the world isn't wrapped around your pinkie.


----------



## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

they are not your clients so.....


----------



## jimAKAblue (Aug 15, 2010)

A general contractor can set up any business arrangement he wants with his subs. It's a give and take agreement. No one is forced to accept the terms. 

One of the terms that can be written in is that the sub will never pass out card s or advertise in any way while on the GC's job. Furthermore, the sub agrees to NEVER work directly for that particular client for infinity. 

Not all general contractors do business like that but some do. If the terms seen too constricting for the sub, he doesn't have to work under those terms. 

If the two firms do their business well, neither will ever need to step on the other's toes. It's important that each segment of the business relationship work in harmony according to the spirit of the agreement. 

In the absence of an agreement it's every man for himself but I can assure you that a well thought out group will do better than the "every man for himself" mentality.


----------



## On The Rock (Feb 5, 2010)

Anyone of the camp that believes that GC's are just middlemen that need to be cut out can skip to the next post....

Anyone who believes that morality is not a component part of this issue can also skip to the next post....




OK, so your customer thinks they can save some money. Do you have a non-compete clause/contract with your subs? This sub? Anybody subbing out work should prepared for these situations _before_ they happen; meaning, something similar to what Snobnd mentioned.



Snobnd said:


> I tell all my Subs the same thing, I will give you the Client info for % of the Project, My Advertising $ Brought in this Client. + I will undoubtedly have to make an Appearance should any thing go Wrong.
> 
> If I catch any of my Sub's working for my Client's on the sly (and I will find out) I will no longer Provide you with any future work.
> 
> Problem Solved!


Be swift, consistent, and firm (but professional) with whatever you decide, or else your subs and your customers will take advantage of you and the work you've done in finding and managing those good subs.

I don't think it's silly or selfish what you're thinking. Though it's true that what some people call hard work is actually misdirected energy, I'm a sub who respects those GC's who work hard to find good subs and treat them well. About 40% of my main GC's customers ask me to my face if I would do work on the side for them. When I tell them, "No," and why, half of those people pause for a moment and then ask, "Well, can you do work for my Mom and Dad," or someone else they know. I then tactfully explain that the work they are asking me to do is actually the ROI of the GC's marketing, the marketing for which I labored nothing. I would never "harvest that fruit" or cross that line with any of my GC's.

If you don't have any kind of prearranged agreement with your flooring sub in this case, you might be in a sticky situation. It's probably not so sticky that some well-chosen and honest words won't get you through, though....


----------



## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

If I do a room addition for a client I will use my plumbing sub to do all the needing plumbing work.

Now if long after the job is done the customer has a clogged drain why in the world would she need to go through me to get 
it unclogged?I will happily get her in contact with my plumber.It's a professional courtesy we have for each other. 

During a job sub's should know not to try and undermine the GC doing the job.But a GC does not own a sub.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Snobnd said:


> I tell all my Subs the same thing, I will give you the Client info for % of the Project, My Advertising $ Brought in this Client. + I will undoubtedly have to make an Appearance should any thing go Wrong.
> 
> If I catch any of my Sub's working for my Client's on the sly (and I will find out) I will no longer Provide you with any future work.
> 
> Problem Solved!



So, if, while on one of MY jobs, one of MY clients asks, "Say, do you know of anyone who can ___________________?"

Fill in the blank with your trade. Replace a window, build a deck, remodel a bathroom, roof my house, set a whirlpool... whatever.

If I give them YOUR name, do I get a percentage of the job YOU do for them?

After all, it's MY advertising and MY business that brought you this client, so where's MY cut?


----------



## VA Remodeler (Aug 8, 2007)

I didn't read all the replies, but around here we just give each others name out freely, whether we're getting a cut or not. In return they will recommend me for jobs. ...we all help each other.

Bill


----------



## jimAKAblue (Aug 15, 2010)

On The Rock said:


> Anyone of the camp that believes that GC's are just middlemen that need to be cut out can skip to the next post....
> 
> Anyone who believes that morality is not a component part of this issue can also skip to the next post....
> 
> ...


As a sub, I always "sold" the clients on the builder/gc that I was servicing too. I would always show loyalty and explain that my pricing to the builder reflected a healthy wholesale rate because of the volume we did. I'd then explain that they would end up with the same price if they used the builder because of the discount.

I always priced my jobs higher to individuals. There are real costs involved in dealing direct and real savings when dealing with a quality General Contractor.


Regarding a plumbing service call.....that tidbit would be dealt with in the GC/Sub Contract aggreement.


----------



## excellencee (Feb 1, 2007)

Once, I had a GC who was building his nephews house. The HO was sure(in his mind) that the old man was screwing him. The HO wanted all extras to go directly through me. I was uncomfortable but the GC wanted things to go smooth. I was told to bill directly with a 12% markup for the GC. Fair enough. At the end of the job, and for many years after, the GC gave me hell for my price being too high. All I did was take the price that I give him and added on his markup. Somehow I raped the HO? That was the first and only time I allowed myself to be in that situation.


----------



## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

480sparky said:


> So, if, while on one of MY jobs, one of MY clients asks, "Say, do you know of anyone who can ___________________?"
> 
> Fill in the blank with your trade. Replace a window, build a deck, remodel a bathroom, roof my house, set a whirlpool... whatever.
> 
> ...


 

Now your Twisting what I said.............Not do you know of________

My Point was- can you come back and do X y or Z. On the Sly


Most of the Guys I know will not do that......Most of the Time they will come to me and tell me what the Client said.

If I can give you 10 to 20 small and Big jobs in a years time- Do you really want to go behind my Back for one??

Speaking in general terms - 
Are you in the Business of Cutthroat Contracting??
Would you Bid against the GC for an extra on the same Job he Just gave you ??

Those are the Questions only you can answer, and I am not telling you to do anything. 
This is my arrangement with my Subs ( whom I have known since HS) 

Lets just say I just gave you 10 jobs, and I have more in the Hopper, and you take one Client on the Sly away from me.

Are you going to be Pissed that I never call you again?? 

But if you came to me and Said Hey man I need this weekend job for some extra $$ do you mind if I take it?? I might be cool with it - JUST ASK


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Snobnd said:


> Now your Twisting what I said.............Not do you know of________
> ...........



I'm not twisting anything. Just changing roles..... put yourself in the other person's shoes is all.

YOU want some of MY money for setting ME up with YOUR client.
I want some of YOUR money for setting YOU up with MY client.


----------



## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Snobnd said:


> Lets just say I just gave you 10 jobs, and I have more in the Hopper, and you take one Client on the Sly away from me.
> 
> Are you going to be Pissed that I never call you again??
> 
> But if you came to me and Said Hey man I need this weekend job for some extra $$ do you mind if I take it?? I might be cool with it - JUST ASK


So you are saying that someone you have done work for in the past must ask your permission to have a tradesman work on their house?And then that tradesman need to have your blessing to do the work?:blink:

Why in the world would a HO call a GC when they need a specialty contractor to work on their house?

If I need my yard worked on I'm not going to go through a GC so he can sub the work to a landscaper and take a cut.Now if a GC is working on my house as part of a remodel then yes I would want the GC to run all the trades.


----------



## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I'm not twisting anything. Just changing roles..... put yourself in the other person's shoes is all.


I know exactly what you're saying.

I use you when I need work done that I can't do myself.You refer me to people that need work done that you can't/don't do yourself....Simple.


----------



## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

Like so many other situations you deal with every day there is not one answer. I take it day by day and depending on who i am dealing with and past experiences dictate how I treat anyone. I always give first, most of the time that works best.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

One side effect of working in the construction trade is you end up knowing a lot of people in other trades.

Now, I don't hand out just anyone's name & number. I won't until I'm sure of a company's or person's ability to do the job right and at a fair price.

Still, I know plenty of plumbers, tinners, brickies, roofers, rockers, landscapers, etc.

I'd never stay in business if I told any of my customers, "Here, call this guy, and he's going to tack on 7% to your bill for my commission.".............


----------



## MarkNoV (Apr 29, 2006)

jimAKAblue said:


> A general contractor can set up any business arrangement he wants with his subs.


No, he can't. 



> One of the terms that can be written in is that the sub will never pass out card s or advertise in any way while on the GC's job. Furthermore, the sub agrees to NEVER work directly for that particular client for infinity.


Don't forget, at the end of the job, to leave a list of all the subs and tell the client that he cannot ever call them to work on his house. Emphasize the EVER part.

Did you come up with those ideas yourself or did you have legal help?

(Yes, I am being sarcastic)

Mark


----------



## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

MarkNoV said:


> Don't forget, at the end of the job, to leave a list of all the subs and tell the client that he cannot ever call them to work on his house. *Emphasize the EVER part.*
> 
> Did you come up with those ideas yourself or did you have legal help?
> 
> ...


----------



## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

JumboJack said:


> So you are saying that someone you have done work for in the past must ask your permission to have a tradesman work on their house?And then that tradesman need to have your blessing to do the work?:blink:
> 
> Why in the world would a HO call a GC when they need a specialty contractor to work on their house?
> 
> If I need my yard worked on I'm not going to go through a GC so he can sub the work to a landscaper and take a cut.Now if a GC is working on my house as part of a remodel then yes I would want the GC to run all the trades.


NOOOO so stop twisting my Words.


If I bring A guy - Flooring or Plumber, Sparky ect he is getting that info because of me. IF you happen to call someone I know out of the Blue that is a different story.

Would you like it if I referred another contractor to take your place With your client??
I am only speaking about the Tradesman I bring onto the site. No more no less.
Cross that Line I will no longer give you any more work Pure and Simple. If you happen to call one of the Guys who never showed up on site and I know them - That's a different story.

I do not ask my guys all the Time to pay me % But it depends on the Job or Scope


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Seems like your wanting to make money for nothing. If I'm called by a customer I have done work for before and they trust to call me again I will do what I can to help them out. I have been called hundreds of times asking for advice about a good contractor to use who they can trust. I always gave out our good subs numbers and in return they would do the same for me. Like they say "What goes around comes around". 

You need to gain customers and not lose customers.


----------



## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

At least the customer in the OP asked the GC directly. Have to give them credit for being upfront. I see no reason to get upset with the sub here. What can you say to the customer? They're being honest about it. I'd be peeved too, but you have little choice but give them the info. 

When a customer contacts a sub who they met through a GC, it's up to the sub to solve the dilemma. The proper approach IMO, is for the sub to contact the original GC and ask how they want to handle it. Standard courtesy. Depending on the situation, most GCs would probably, grudgingly, give it a nod. In the long run, they'll appreciate the sub telling them. It's the ethical way to do business.

I wouldn't use a sub again, unless there was no other choice, who worked for a customer without checking with me first. If I was a sub, I wouldn't work for the client w/o checking with the GC _*unless*_ I had 'zero' respect for the GC anyway.

Customer's will always try this, they're only thinking of money, and have little care for how this behavior affects relationships.

It's basic ethics. We all win, when there are rules to the road.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Snobnd said:


> NOOOO so stop twisting my Words.
> 
> 
> If I bring A guy - Flooring or Plumber, Sparky ect he is getting that info because of me........


And I BRING IN SOMEONE ELSE AS WELL..... I bring a roofer, plumber, tile guy BECAUSE OF ME.


----------



## apehangeralfy (Oct 26, 2008)

The GC's I work with will pass on my number because they know that when I get any leads I pass them on to them... we are trying to help build the others up because they in turn help build ourselves and costumers see that, when we help each other out it builds confidence and respect... customers recognise that, it can not be bought... 

Remember, pigs get fat... hogs get slaughtered!!!!


----------



## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Snobnd said:


> NOOOO so stop twisting my Words.
> 
> 
> If I bring A guy - Flooring or Plumber, Sparky ect he is getting that info because of me. IF you happen to call someone I know out of the Blue that is a different story.
> ...


I understand exactly what you are saying and I'm not twisting your words.

If a customer happens to remember that you used "Joe's Plumbing" or "480's Electrical" on the remodel you did for them and then looks them up at a later time to come snake their drain or change a panel,you want a cut of their business.


----------



## jimAKAblue (Aug 15, 2010)

MarkNoV said:


> No, he can't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was speaking for free Americans...at this point in time, we still are free to enter into legal agreements with each other. 

I'm sure it's much different in Marxist countries. 

How is it in your country? Are you allowed to establish mutual agreements between yourselves?


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

As a GC you do not own any of your subs nor can you dictate terms outside of your specific contract on that job. Once the job is over the contract is over. And even when you give the sub you used name to the HO you would figure that the price that they give to the HO will be higher as they are a client and not a GC (job provider).


----------



## jimAKAblue (Aug 15, 2010)

Leo G said:


> As a GC you do not own any of your subs nor can you dictate terms outside of your specific contract on that job. Once the job is over the contract is over. And even when you give the sub you used name to the HO you would figure that the price that they give to the HO will be higher as they are a client and not a GC (job provider).


It's theoretically possible to "own" the subcontracting company but slavery was outlawed back in the 1800's. 

So, yes, anything is possible as long as it's legal....at least here in the States.


----------



## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

If you own them then they are not a sub anymore so you can't 1099 them. I would check with an accountant, he can explain the legal relationship between a sub and GC.


----------



## MarkNoV (Apr 29, 2006)

> I'm sure it's much different in Marxist countries.
> 
> How is it in your country? Are you allowed to establish mutual agreements between yourselves?


Actually, I feel that the province I reside in is more Fascist than Marxist, but that is beside the point.

Fundamentally, two parties cannot agree to something that affects a third party without the third oarty's consent. That holds true for any 'ism you like.

Mark


jimAKAblue is online now Reply With Quote


----------



## jimAKAblue (Aug 15, 2010)

jmacd said:


> If you own them then they are not a sub anymore so you can't 1099 them. I would check with an accountant, he can explain the legal relationship between a sub and GC.



I don't need to check with my accountant. I would need to check with my lawyer, and he would tell me that one entity is entitled to own another entity. So, the GC could be a C corp and own the LLC or vice versa. How this all get reported on the K1's is the accountants job to figure. 

You can beat this all the way around the mulberry bush but you're missing the point entirely....but...if you want to continue, I'll be here.

And yes, the parent company would still be required to 1099 the child company.


----------



## jimAKAblue (Aug 15, 2010)

MarkNoV said:


> Actually, I feel that the province I reside in is more Fascist than Marxist, but that is beside the point.
> 
> Fundamentally, two parties cannot agree to something that affects a third party without the third oarty's consent. That holds true for any 'ism you like.
> 
> ...


So, in facist Canada, I would need to get every citizen's consent to write up a non-compete clause?!!!

I'm glad I don't live there. We have non compete clauses with many of our subs.


----------



## MarkNoV (Apr 29, 2006)

> So, in facist Canada, I would need to get every citizen's consent to write up a non-compete clause?!!!
> 
> I'm glad I don't live there. We have non compete clauses with many of our subs.


You can write all the clauses you want. The ones that are contrary to law principles or against public good have no legal value, and would be ignored. 
I might as well find another contractor, we can both throw our business cards into the Pacific and claim all the work in all the countries that surround it for ourselves. I am sure the Chinese would be concerned.

Have you ever tested your non-compete clauses in a court of law?


Mark


----------



## jshebert13 (Aug 8, 2010)

Your concerns are genuine, but don't discount the goodwill factor. More valuable than what you might have made from the sub. Give her the info and even help her line the guy up. It'll pay off in the long run.


----------

