# Health Insurance $$$



## cvtsf (Nov 5, 2016)

Windycity said:


> What do you mean Having the the insurance companies involved? The aca never changed that
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right, the ACA never changed the insurance companies involvement, but we were all forced to use them.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

cvtsf said:


> Right, the ACA never changed the insurance companies involvement, but we were all forced to use them.


Well, actually it did in the fact that the insurance companies were forced by the government to provide policies that didn't make sense that weren't what people wanted but what government wants... like mandating maternity care for males or women past child-bearing age or insurance the person who had it was happy with but the government decided was "substandard" and didn't give them a chance to say no even though the people are the ones paying for it...

Another way of looking at this is do you think you should be forced to pay for car insurance for your Ford but at Cadillac prices when you don't own a Cadillac? There's a lot of coverage that is like that in Obamacare...

It's why people lost the policies they were supposed to be able to keep and why a lot of people are choosing to pay the tax but also the have nothing to show for it...


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

J L said:


> Yeah, piss off...eh :laughing:
> 
> 
> Ours went up $200 for the wife and I. I found some "short term" plans with decent coverage and lower deductibles for reasonable rates but they don't qualify for obamacare so I'd still have to pay the penalty tax at the end of the year. Even with the tax, it's still cheaper than getting on an obamacare plan. :blink::no:


This is exactly what we done. $3200 annually. But it's only available for 2 years & we're getting ready to start our second year. My understanding, the penalty can only be deducted from your tax return, they can't make you write a check. We're both self employeed, so we don't get a tax return.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

KAP said:


> It's why people lost the policies they were supposed to be able to keep and why a lot of people are choosing to pay the tax but also the have nothing to show for it...



People lost their prior ACA insurance because it didnt meet the new requirements. Basically they were garbage plans that didnt cover much, it the same reason why there is a minimum requirement for auto insurance because if there was no regulations motorists would be driving around with affordable "insurance" that would not provide enough coverage to compensate the person they hit. The law says that you need to provide x amount of protection 

Of course it was a blunder of the president with the famous "if you like your insurance you can keep it" 



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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

cvtsf said:


> My rates jumped $200/mo. It's terrible, the problem with ACA is having insurance companies involved.
> 
> I wonder what it would be if everyone in the US was covered by Medicare? If we all paid the same amount per month? $200? $1,000? $2,000?


Yes, because when I think of efficient, well managed programs, the government is the first thing that comes to mind. That reminds me, I have to go to the DMV to register a truck. While I'm there, I'm sure I'll be thinking "God, I which these folks would handle my healthcare."


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

cvtsf said:


> Right, the ACA never changed the insurance companies involvement, but we were all forced to use them.


As opposed to what? Using the hospital emergency room as a PCP?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> *People lost their prior ACA insurance because it didnt meet the new requirements.* Basically they were garbage plans that didnt cover much, it the same reason why there is a minimum requirement for auto insurance because if there was no regulations motorists would be driving around with affordable "insurance" that would not provide enough coverage to compensate the person they hit. The law says that you need to provide x amount of protection
> 
> Of course it was a blunder of the president with the famous "if you like your insurance you can keep it"
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The challenge with the the "new requirements" is they included coverage people didn't need and now are paying for in the same way I'm sure you'd think it ridiculous that you be charged for insurance for a Cadillac when you don't own one or insurance based on a new car when you own a 5-10 year old one under the idea of "well you're gonna' own a new car someday so you should share in the cost now"... 

You'd shop and pay for insurance on the vehicle you actually own...

Never mind the RIDICULOUS deductibles which is just another way to add premium under a different word...

So even IF they have the new insurance with the new requirements, they have insurance they can't afford to use...


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

KAP said:


> The challenge with the the "new requirements" is they included coverage people didn't need and now are paying for in the same way I'm sure you'd think it ridiculous that you be charged for insurance for a Cadillac when you don't own one or insurance based on a new car when you own a 5-10 year old one under the idea of "well you're gonna' own a new car someday so you should share in the cost now"...
> 
> You'd shop and pay for insurance on the vehicle you actually own...
> 
> So even IF they have the new insurance with the new requirements, they have insurance they can't afford to use...



Your comparisons about the cars makes no sense, every single person should be regarded as a "cadillac" people never be separated into groups such as desirable (healthy people they can make money on) and undesirable people (sick, cancer...etc that the insurance co. will lose money) it would be easy if health was simply a matter of lifestyle choice, however it's not disease and sickness can strike anyone at any time..

Its no different than having the mindset that you dont want your tax dollars to pay for someone elses road that you dont drive on...you only want to pay for the services or the road that YOU use

Health insurance and health care in the private "for profit" system will never work.....well it works by not having compassion and simply looking to make money.. anyone remember the whole epipen controversy? Hey its what the market will bear right ? They have the patent and are the only manufacturer of the delivery system and boy did they stick it to the poor people that needed it? 




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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

EricBrancard said:


> Yes, because when I think of efficient, well managed programs, the government is the first thing that comes to mind. That reminds me, I have to go to the DMV to register a truck. While I'm there, I'm sure I'll be thinking "God, I which these folks would handle my healthcare."




I understand what you are saying but medicare has a pretty high satisfaction rate amongst seniors 

Plus something else to consider at least the government doesn't turn his back on its citizens (usually) I've had the pleasure of private health insurance companies denying me because my health conscious wife had a pre-existing condition (cancer) and my daughter had a seizure when she was a baby.....how the hell am supposed to prevent that? And when you have a condition you are SCREWED! You lose everything and if you dont health care cost will take all of your disposable income....medicare doesn't discriminate and its affordable 

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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> Your comparisons about the cars makes no sense, every single person should be regarded as a "cadillac" people never be separated into groups such as desirable (healthy people they can make money on) and undesirable people (sick, cancer...etc that the insurance co. will lose money) it would be easy if health was simply a matter of lifestyle choice, however it's not disease and sickness can strike anyone at any time..


I think you missed the point on "cadillac"... it was about paying for something you're not getting....




Windycity said:


> Its no different than having the mindset that you dont want your tax dollars to pay for someone elses road that you dont drive on...you only want to pay for the services or the road that YOU use


That's a bit off... Up until now, the taxpayer was never forced to buy a private product or pay a tax... 




Windycity said:


> Health insurance and health care in the private "for profit" system will never work.....


That's because it's not subject to competition... look at every industry that is open to competition and you'll find not only constant price wars to the benefit of the consumers, but more services added for less money... "for profit" BTW...

Now look at EVERY industry where there is little competition or monopolies and you'll find the OPPOSITE... 




Windycity said:


> well it works by not having compassion and simply looking to make money.. anyone remember the whole epipen controversy? Hey its what the market will bear right ? They have the patent and are the only manufacturer of the delivery system and boy did they stick it to the poor people that needed it?


And what happened with the epipen when the attention was brought to it? Did a government program force them to offer a $300 coupon or was it the market? There is an alternative to epipen that costs around $150, with the same meds/doses... only difference is two caps instead of one... but everyone knows epipen they have a monopoly on that brand and delivery system of one cap... Kinda' highlights the point on competition...

http://www.livescience.com/55911-epipen-alternatives.html

Now ask yourself when the epipen controversy hit the news, why did it not also include in the reporting about the alternative for cheaper...

The irony in all this is with Obamacare making the deductibles go up DRASTICALLY, people are more on the hook for paying these meds... the people it was supposed to help.... again, they have insurance they can't afford to use because it's not subject to market forces but their market is protected by law or tax...

http://www.businessinsider.com/epipen-price-increases-2016-8

From the article... 

_<b>"The list price isn't typically what a consumer with health insurance or coupons might pay.
​</b>__*In response to questions about its high list price, Mylan noted in an email to Business Insider that about 80% of people with commercial insurance who also used a "My EpiPen Savings Card" received the device for $0. The company also pointed to changing healthcare plans that have higher deductibles, leaving families on the hook for more of the prescription's cost than in the past." *_​


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I want the government to force everyone to buy a deck and subsidize the ones who can't afford it, so I can quadruple my prices. WTH, the government is paying, there are no victims right? Or my prices can be set by free market principles and I'm forced to compete. 

My vet as a great example. I know everyone thinks the vet is expensive. But compare it to human health care. My dog had a hip repaired with plates and screws, the bill? 3k. If it was humans it would be around 40k. Now the reason the vet is so cheap is because of what the market can bear. People would elect to just put the dog down. However my vet is still making a fortune even with only charging 3k. 

Now I realize humans have a different level of care and you can't put grandma down (yet). But even before the ACA the gov was footing the bill because it was more often than not that the elderly were getting most of the hip surgeries, paid for by uncle Sam. So if I'm in the hip business I see that as a golden opportunity. If the Government wasn't involved and everyone payed out of pocket, I guarantee the cost would be expensive but affordable (like the vet). It would have to be, or the hipsters would be out of business. 

When I was a kid we had health insurance, but it didn't cover the small stuff. A doctors visit was very reasonable. My parents paid the family doctor, we had for years, out of pocket on the way out the door. They even payed for my broken arm out of pocket. The whole reason health care is so expensive is because of the government. That's true before ACA and more so after. The pattern is (as proved by ACA) the more the government pays the higher the price becomes. 

College tuition is another great example. Everyone qualifies for FAFSA. Everyone will get the money. If I'm a college, I get to charge whatever I want. Kids are especially vulnerable. All of them go in believing the 100k degree is an investment. Again, I can't wait until the gov guarantees a loan to everyone, regardless of the ability to pay it back, to build decks. That way I can get rich. 

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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Another reason for higher health cost. When I go in with a chest cold my doctor has to order $5,000.00 worth of tests in case he misses something so he doesn't get sued. They treat the liability and risk not the patient. Tort reform has to be addressed. My doctor said his liability insurance premiums were $80,000.00 per year. He used to have a little family business, but was forced to shut the doors and work for a giant HMO. So now you have 3 or 4 facilities instead of community family doctors. Less competition more money. I won't even start in about not being able to buy over state lines. 

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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> Another reason for higher health cost. When I go in with a chest cold my doctor has to order $5,000.00 worth of tests in case he misses something so he doesn't get sued. They treat the liability and risk not the patient. Tort reform has to be addressed. My doctor said his liability insurance premiums were $80,000.00 per year. He used to have a little family business, but was forced to shut the doors and work for a giant HMO. So now you have 3 or 4 facilities instead of community family doctors. Less competition more money. I won't even start in about not being able to buy over state lines.
> 
> ________


My wife is the office manager for a surgeon's private practice. Medicare and Medicaid seem like a great idea until you see how much they actually pay the doctor for a procedure. It's so hard to keep a private practice now that most have to go work for a hospital instead. Then they are at the mercy of the hospital that can reduce their pay and fire them at any time. What's the incentive to even be a doctor anymore? Spend half the time getting a finance degree and make more money than they ever will without all liability.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Some of the biggest lobbyist in Congress are trial lawyers. Makes sense the dems didn't include tort reform. It would've interfered with campaign contributions. 

_________


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

So $1.00 out of every $8.00 goes to patient care here in the US under most health plans.

The system we have here just doe's not work, we have company's who wish to make a profit, decideing what to charge for premiums and what to pay for.

My wife's friend just had a stint installed (mild heart attack) just got the bill $90,000.00 in the hospital 24 hr's ???????????


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

Man I feel for you guys, most of you are carrying a second mortgage payment just to have to pay out of pocket in the office chance you need to use your health insurance.

It makes me sick when I see people here in Canada abusing the health care system.

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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

sunkist said:


> So $1.00 out of every $8.00 goes to patient care here in the US under most health plans.
> 
> The system we have here just doe's not work, we have company's who wish to make a profit, decideing what to charge for premiums and what to pay for.
> 
> My wife's friend just had a stint installed (mild heart attack) just got the bill $90,000.00 in the hospital 24 hr's ???????????


How do you think they make up the BILLIONS in money they don't get for care they end up providing for free or being short-changed by the government even though there are codes in place or pay for computerized billing mandated by Obamacare that cost from hundreds of MILLIONS into the BILLIONS per hospital network?...

Unlike the government, the hospitals can't write checks for money they don't have... the taxes the government now collects each year from people who are paying the tax and not getting anything for it, because they can't afford the insurance/deductible or to be able to use it, doesn't go to the health industries coffers...


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Californiadecks said:


> I want the government to force everyone to buy a deck and subsidize the ones who can't afford it, so I can quadruple my prices. WTH, the government is paying, there are no victims right? Or my prices can be set by free market principles and I'm forced to compete.
> 
> 
> 
> ________



Yea but the major problem with what you are saying is that everybody does not need a deck, actually a lot of people don't even own homes. Same thinking can be said about car insurance, law requires you to purchase insurance if you want to drive a car. However a lot of people don't have a drivers license and don't own a car therefore they do not have to purchase automobile insurance. We all have bodies and we all will require some sort of medical care at some point in our lives. 





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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> Yea but the major problem with what you are saying is that everybody does not need a deck, actually a lot of people don't even own homes. Same thinking can be said about car insurance, law requires you to purchase insurance if you want to drive a car. However a lot of people don't have a drivers license and don't own a car therefore they do not have to purchase automobile insurance. We all have bodies and we all will require some sort of medical care at some point in our lives.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But following your logic everyone is going to live in a home of some sort or ride in a vehicle or even die (why should families, society be left to absorb your debt)... so why shouldn't everyone pay homeowners/vehicle/life insurance with minimum coverage decided by the government?

As it stands now, the governments idea for minimum insurance is the equivalent of someone not having a driving license but still being forced to purchase automobile insurance or pay the government a tax for choosing not to purchase a private product... 

Not to add too much of a political bent to it, but if you think the government is the best choice in making those life choices for you or forcing those who think differently to pay a tax, there's LOTS of private products that we should be forced to buy or pay a tax for not doing so because it benefits everyone else... the challenge with this thinking is you become a commodity to be managed not an individual with inalienable rights... your needs/wants/desires are supplanted by BORG thinking with your choices being made for you whether you like it or not... the constitution holds little value in that scenario...


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

KAP said:


> But following your logic everyone is going to live in a home of some sort or ride in a vehicle or even die (why should families, society be left to absorb your debt)... so why shouldn't everyone pay homeowners/vehicle/life insurance with minimum coverage decided by the government?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes but if you are riding in somebody else's car they have insurance on their car that covers you? Right? If you are walking down the street and somebody hits you with their car then their insurance covers your bills. I have been to over 25 countries and I've done a lot of studying about their governments and their insurance. We are the only country in the industrialized world that does not provide insurance for its citizens. We are the only country in the world where people actually worry about losing everything my own if they come up with cancer. We are the only country in the world that people have to pay such crazy amounts of their income for healthcare..

Our system is not working. I do not believe that the government is the answer for everything. However when dealing with healthcare it seems to be the only system that is working in other parts of the world




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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

KAP said:


> But following your logic everyone is going to live in a home of some sort or ride in a vehicle or even die (why should families, society be left to absorb your debt)... so why shouldn't everyone pay homeowners/vehicle/life insurance with minimum coverage decided by the government?


Everyone who lives in a home or rides in a vehicle already does pay insurance, through their rent or cab fare, etc. to the owner who pays insurance.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

KAP you also mentioned earlier about having more competition, I agree with you there and i am very excited to see what president Trump is going to do however the only thing he has committed to is that he is going to open up the state lines to enable people to purchase insurance across state lines.....maybe it will help but I really dont know any state that has affordable health insurance?? It is expensive everywhere and the only thing it's going to do is it is going to force all the health insurance companies to move to the state with the least amount of regulation just like the credit card companies did back when they were deregulated... does anybody ever wonder why all the credit card companies are from Delaware? It's because they are the state with the least amount of regulations against the credit card industry 


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> Yes but if you are riding in somebody else's car they have insurance on their car that covers you? Right? If you are walking down the street and somebody hits you with their car then their insurance covers your bills.


Only to the limits of the insurance (again... government minimums at play)... then you have to go after the person for the rest... to the point of bankruptcy for the person who was insured... IOW, you can't protect against every bad thing in life, and we live in a country that provides avenues of relief (which are easily recovered from nowadays BTW) if you are in a position where you can't pay...




Windycity said:


> I have been to over 25 countries and I've done a lot of studying about their governments and their insurance. We are the only country in the industrialized world that does not provide insurance for its citizens.


In your studies, I guess I'm surprised that you didn't find that their government healthcare systems were not only lacking (i.e. - rationing, long wait lists, higher taxes, doctor shortages, etc.) but that they were offering additional PRIVATE insurance to make up where it lacks... 




Windycity said:


> We are the only country in the world where people actually worry about losing everything my own if they come up with cancer. We are the only country in the world that people have to pay such crazy amounts of their income for healthcare..


With bankruptcy laws, you do NOT lose everything you own... And if you choose this option it ERASES the debt you've incurred... 

The crazy amounts of healthcare have INCREASED with Obamacare, not only in direct premiums, but increases in deductibles which is just another way of charging more premiums. And the answer is to give government MORE control over it when they've PROVEN they can't even put a website together after spending BILLIONS on it and running the VA for DECADES with people literally dying?




Windycity said:


> Our system is not working. I do not believe that the government is the answer for everything. However when dealing with healthcare it seems to be the only system that is working in other parts of the world
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You'll note that the more government has gotten involved in healthcare over the decades and the more it's moved away from competition, the MORE EXPENSIVE it's become... the system is not working because there are two hands washing the other (i.e. - government and monopolized/limited choices health insurance companies), while the only decision they leave you with BY LAW is who to pay...


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

The long wait times you mentioned are severely over exaggerated if you have a life-threatening condition you are taken care of immediately. However yes if you need a knee replacement that is not very urgent then yes you might have to wait


And our country has the highest healthcare costs with some of the worst outcomes so the countries that provide insurance through the government actually has a lower health care cost with better outcomes for its residents 

The US also has a shorter life expectancy rate I believe as well

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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Golden view said:


> Everyone who lives in a home or rides in a vehicle already does pay insurance, through their rent or cab fare, etc. to the owner who pays insurance.


I get what you're trying to say but that's not the case... the person paying the bill is indirectly paying that, whether renting or insuring the vehicle, but if someone is living in a home and/or drives in someones car as a passenger and does not give money to the person paying rent or owner of the car they are riding in, they aren't paying that insurance cost at all...


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

KAP said:


> I get what you're trying to say but that's not the case... the person paying the bill is indirectly paying that, whether renting or insuring the vehicle, but if someone is living in a home and/or drives in someones car as a passenger and does not give money to the person paying rent or owner of the car they are riding in, they aren't paying that insurance cost at all...




This is exactly the problem with trying to debate health care. At some point everybody is going to need it but you dont know when


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Windycity said:


> This is exactly the problem with trying to debate health care. At some point everybody is going to need it but you dont know when
> 
> So how do we make everyone do the responsible thing and make they buy it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Sorry for the double post i went to edit the post but i quoted it instead...

How do we make everyone buy something?? Health care, if its optional no matter how cheap it is alot of people wont be able to afford it. Even though of course they'll still be able to afford their cigarettes, vacations, and new SUVs. 

I guess one way to solve this is if we change the law to make you pre-pay your hospital visit. For example you can't be admitted to the hospital if you're having a heart attack unless you pay for it on the spot or have health insurance. If you cannot pay or do not have insurance then I guess you're out of luck. I guess this will make people do the responsible thing



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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> KAP you also mentioned earlier about having more competition, I agree with you there and i am very excited to see what president Trump is going to do however the only thing he has committed to is that he is going to open up the state lines to enable people to purchase insurance across state lines.....maybe it will help but I really dont know any state that has affordable health insurance?? It is expensive everywhere and the only thing it's going to do is it is going to force all the health insurance companies to move to the state with the least amount of regulation just like the credit card companies did back when they were deregulated... does anybody ever wonder why all the credit card companies are from Delaware? It's because they are the state with the least amount of regulations against the credit card industry
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The models already exist... Auto, Life, Disability... and you'll note that competition in those BREEDS better pricing and/or benefits and even off-shoots of companies SHOPPING what you're looking for and getting you the best price...

In contrast, if you have a monopoly or limited number of choices in a state, what pricing pressure do you think they have especially when now it's MANDATED you use their private product?




Windycity said:


> The long wait times you mentioned are severely over exaggerated if you have a life-threatening condition you are taken care of immediately. However yes if you need a knee replacement that is not very urgent then yes you might have to wait
> 
> And our country has the highest healthcare costs with some of the worst outcomes so the countries that provide insurance through the government actually has a lower health care cost with better outcomes for its residents
> 
> ...


Let's put it this way... one of my kids had an ingrown toe-nail... went to doctor and they fixed it... they billed the insurance company something like $540, of which insurance company paid like $320 for the visit and we were to pay the remaining amount as part of meeting our deductible, which would have been over $200... I questioned this... I called them and asked if I was to use them for this service how much would it be for cash, without insurance... $150... why would this be? BECAUSE they know they have to compete for the cash market on pricing, but not on insurance... So I was paying for insurance, they got paid from the insurance company over TWICE the amount they would have gotten in cash, and STILL wanted over $200 to meet my deductible portion, even though they only charge $150 for the same service if you're paying cash...

Needless to say, after bringing this to their attention and after a little back and forth, they waived the remaining amount... if there are no price pressures from the consumer, there is no reason to change the above?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> Sorry for the double post i went to edit the post but i quoted it instead...
> 
> How do we make everyone buy something?? Health care, if its optional no matter how cheap it is alot of people wont be able to afford it. Even though of course they'll still be able to afford their cigarettes, vacations, and new SUVs.
> 
> ...


It's not an either/or... the government can regulate businesses as a means of operation within our borders... has always been the case...

What's wrong here is regulating people under the same thinking FORCING them to buy a private product or pay a tax for not doing so as the only two choices... once you give up the right to remain sovereign in your actions, and subsequent consequences of your choices, YOU become the product to be regulated... 

If someone goes into business, providing goods/services that benefit other people, employees, tax coffers, etc. but they go bankrupt and lose everything despite this, are they any less bankrupt? 

What's at play here is pretending the government can negate the issues of life... even though there is Obamacare, there are still TENS OF MILLIONS who now not only don't have healthcare, because they can't afford it, but are now blessed with paying a tax on top of it... those who do have it, with increased premiums/deductible's are having a hard time even affording it and nwo at the same time, the cost is being transferred to non-Obamacare insurance...

Government isn't the answer... they only deal in minimums/rationing...


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

KAP said:


> The models already exist... Auto, Life, Disability... and you'll note that competition in those BREEDS better pricing and/or benefits and even off-shoots of companies SHOPPING what you're looking for and getting you the best price...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again you are referring to products that people dont need....you dont need life insurance on kids. Plus auto insurance has a much lower payout ie replacing a $40,000 car vs paying a million dollars to treat cancer. Auto insurance also has the benefit of making higher risk people pay a higher premium or just flat out denying them coverage because they are too risky. Now the law says you must have car insurance to drive so if you cant afford it then you dont drive. That is not an option with health care. Well I guess it is since if you cant afford health insurance then you do with out your prescriptions if you cant pay for the crazy high cost

The insurance companies have consolidated over the years through the free market which has eaten up competitors so yes your argument has merit. However it is dual sided because we are not just talking about insurance companies but we are also talking about the astronomical cost of the health care industry that charges the insurance companies requiring them to charge us for them to make a profit 




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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> Yea but the major problem with what you are saying is that everybody does not need a deck, actually a lot of people don't even own homes. Same thinking can be said about car insurance, law requires you to purchase insurance if you want to drive a car. However a lot of people don't have a drivers license and don't own a car therefore they do not have to purchase automobile insurance. We all have bodies and we all will require some sort of medical care at some point in our lives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We need food, clothes and a home, to survive, the government doesn't make it mandatory I buy food. And the gov doesn't make it mandatory I buy car insurance for myself. I only have to show I can pay 15k for the other driver. I can send the state 15k if I want, so no i don't even need car insurance. I believe the minimum is 15k. But that's beside the point. 

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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Using data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and other sources, the report, U.S. Health Care from a Global Perspective: Spending, Use of Services, Prices, and Health in 13 Countries, compares health care spending, use of services, prices, and health outcomes in the U.S. with those in Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom. Most of the data are for 2013, and so predate the major insurance provisions of the Affordable Care Act.

Commonwealth Fund researchers found the U.S. to be a substantial outlier when it comes to health spending. Health care consumed 17.1 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product (GDP) in 2013, about 50 percent more than any other country. Despite being the only country in the study without universal health care coverage, government spending on health care in the U.S.—mainly for Medicare and Medicaid—was high as well, at $4,197 per person in 2013.

By comparison, the U.K., where all residents are covered by the National Health Service, spent $2,802 per person.


I love the part that despite being the only country that doesn't provide universal health care our government spends twice as much as the UK that PROVIDES the health care..

This system is a total scam

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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> Again you are referring to products that people dont need....you dont need life insurance on kids.


And you don't need maternity coverage if you are a single guy or past child bearing age... yet, you get to pay for it as part of the minimum coverage...





Windycity said:


> Plus auto insurance has a much lower payout ie replacing a $40,000 car vs paying a million dollars to treat cancer. Auto insurance also has the benefit of making higher risk people pay a higher premium or just flat out denying them coverage because they are too risky. Now the law says you must have car insurance to drive so if you cant afford it then you dont drive. That is not an option with health care. Well I guess it is since if you cant afford health insurance then you do with out your prescriptions if you cant pay for the crazy high cost


Nope. unless you have an auto loan, you are only required to have liability coverage, which means you are open to all the things that bring you to the same point of bankrupty...What is happening now is akin to you paying for car insurance without a car or paying a tax if you don't want a car ANYWAY...




Windycity said:


> The insurance companies have consolidated over the years through the free market which has eaten up competitors so yes your argument has merit. However it is dual sided because we are not just talking about insurance companies but we are also talking about the astronomical cost of the health care industry that charges the insurance companies requiring them to charge us for them to make a profit
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


State agencies control which health insurance companies are in what state market... it's why opening the markets up to competition across state lines, like they do in auto, life & disability will open it up to price pressures... 

Look at it this way, in my kids ingrown toe-nail story above, you see the very problem with the insurance companies & healthcare industry. Unless the CONSUMER is involved in the process, the healthcare industry will simply charge the health insurance companies (who are supposed to be negotiating rates on your behalf as part of their service) MORE than what they would charge the CONSUMER who is paying in cash...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> Using data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and other sources, the report, U.S. Health Care from a Global Perspective: Spending, Use of Services, Prices, and Health in 13 Countries, compares health care spending, use of services, prices, and health outcomes in the U.S. with those in Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom. Most of the data are for 2013, and so predate the major insurance provisions of the Affordable Care Act.
> 
> Commonwealth Fund researchers found the U.S. to be a substantial outlier when it comes to health spending. Health care consumed 17.1 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product (GDP) in 2013, about 50 percent more than any other country. Despite being the only country in the study without universal health care coverage, government spending on health care in the U.S.—mainly for Medicare and Medicaid—was high as well, at $4,197 per person in 2013.
> 
> ...


Again, the reason for higher prices is because of the gov. So more gov isn't the answer. The gov has been supplying free health care to millions of citizens way before ACA. You can't insert gov into free markets without prices skyrocketing for those without gov help. They don't just raise prices for the gov payees, that would be illegal. So everyone's prices go up. I was hit by a car on a motorcycle, broke both feet received 57 metal staples in my leg and was blind for 4 hours with a concussion. It was a hit and run. My bill was picked up by the Methodist hospital. I didn't pay a dime. I was young and didn't make much. 

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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Tele a good look at the VA, that's a microcosm of what it will be like to add 300 mil people to a national healthcare system. 



> Waiting times at five-year high in British National Health Service
> By Mark Blackwood and Ajanta Silva
> 19 October 2013
> Thousands of patients across the UK are facing long delays, exceeding the national target of treatment within 18 weeks of a problem being identified.
> ...


https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/10/19/heal-o19.html

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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Californiadecks said:


> Again, the reason for higher prices is because of the gov. So more gov isn't the answer. The gov has been supplying free health care to millions of citizens way before ACA. You can't insert gov into free markets without prices skyrocketing for those without gov help. They don't just raise prices for the gov payees, that would be illegal. So everyone's prices go up. I was hit by a car on a motorcycle, broke both feet received 57 metal staples in my leg and was blind for 4 hours with a concussion. It was a hit and run. My bill was picked up by the Methodist hospital. I didn't pay a dime. I was young and didn't make much.
> 
> ________




Sorry I have to disagree with you. Healthcare costs are high because of the unregulated market. I also know somebody that was hit by an uninsured/undocumented Mexican driver while he was riding his motorcycle... it definitely was not free. His own insurance paid a large amount of the cost, however it personally cost him thousands of dollars out-of-pocket. The cost he had to pay to rebuild all of his teeth were enough the finance a new car

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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> Using data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and other sources, the report, U.S. Health Care from a Global Perspective: Spending, Use of Services, Prices, and Health in 13 Countries, compares health care spending, use of services, prices, and health outcomes in the U.S. with those in Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom. Most of the data are for 2013, and so predate the major insurance provisions of the Affordable Care Act.
> 
> Commonwealth Fund researchers found the U.S. to be a substantial outlier when it comes to health spending. Health care consumed 17.1 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product (GDP) in 2013, about 50 percent more than any other country. Despite being the only country in the study without universal health care coverage, government spending on health care in the U.S.—mainly for Medicare and Medicaid—was high as well, at $4,197 per person in 2013.
> 
> ...


Putting aside you are comparing apples and oranges with the UK/USA, you're forgetting that the USA is the R&D capital of the world as it relates to healthcare (last I looked, we were in the 40-60% range) which are adsorbed into our healthcare costs and we subsidize a lot of countries healthcare... you don't think they pay the same for US meds over there do you? You don't think their doctors get paid the same do you? Etc...

You're also forgetting tort and government regulation issues, which add a TREMENDOUS amount of cost to the system... I'll give you one example... a family member works for a hospital network of 14 hospitals... keep in mind that there are THOUSANDS of hospitals in the US and this was only 14 of them...

Do you know how much it cost them to implement the government required software changes for Obamacare? Over $500 MILLION for the initial roll-out, and will be upwards of a BILLION when all is said and done... this was for only 14 hospitals and has to be absorbed... now factor in THOUSANDS of hospitals... regulation at it's finest...

Do you know how much they are generally reimbursed by the government for Medicaid? 40 cents on the dollar... 

Total scam? Agreed... :thumbsup:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Windycity said:


> *Sorry I have to disagree with you. Healthcare costs are high because of the unregulated market.* I also know somebody that was hit by an uninsured/undocumented Mexican driver while he was riding his motorcycle... it definitely was not free. His own insurance paid a large amount of the cost, however it personally cost him thousands of dollars out-of-pocket. The cost he had to pay to rebuild all of his teeth were enough the finance a new car
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Healthcare is one of the most regulated markets there is... :blink:


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

KAP said:


> Putting aside you are comparing apples and oranges with the UK/USA, you're forgetting that the USA is the R&D capital of the world as it relates to healthcare (last I looked, we were in the 40-60% range) which are adsorbed into our healthcare costs and we subsidize a lot of countries healthcare... you don't think they pay the same for US meds over there do you? You don't think their doctors get paid the same do you? Etc...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




We have been historically the leader in healthcare advancement yes however other nations are definitely catching up, it is difficult to find unbiased info but from what I found within the next decade asia will be ahead of the US in research and development 

The whole obamacare software required changes were implemented to combat the incredibly high cost of all the administrative fees that are charged to healthcare. These costs are probably the biggest reason why healthcare is so high in the United States. These costs were in place well before Obama was even President and its probably why only $1 for every $8 spent is actually used to provide health care 

I do not see where the government is so involved with my health care. Outside of the requirements, my health insurance company United healthcare is a private Corporation that my company pays directly, The hospital I go to is a private Corporation, with I believe 16 board of directors on it. My doctors office has absolutely no involvement in the government and they are they paid directly from me and my health insurance...

All of the above does have to abide by government "rules" or regulations but i do not see all of this government involvement that is skyrocketing healthcare cost... i do know all of the above has an incredible amount of overhead... 


Looking ahead obamacare was promised to be cut so this software issues should go away and Trump is definitely against regulations so we will see in 4 years if anything is going to change...hopefully for the better 


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Interesting article on the subject...
*
Want to ditch ObamaCare? Let's copy Singapore's health care miracle.... *http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016...lets-copy-singapores-health-care-miracle.html


I think the biggest key is bringing it back to a system that is bottom-up as opposed to top-down...


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