# Question. Need quick answer??



## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

Ok so today I was switching out a bathtub, no biggie. But the client wants a separate shower control. So I cut the pipes added a T and hooked up both a tub spout with taps and shower control. That is all I touched for plumbing. 
But the issue is now there is no hot water?? The client has had the water heater looked at. They say its working fine. So what is happening here


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

When you turn the hot tap on it get warm for a second then cold. Has me totally baffled


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Is the shower body cartridges in the body .


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

Yes. The shower is completely together. Even the finish trim


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

And it's the entire house. Not just the bathroom. Every tap in the house.


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## B.Scott (Feb 1, 2013)

If the water runs hot, then cold I'd say you tee'd the hot and cold together by accident.


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

B.Scott said:


> If the water runs hot, then cold I'd say you tee'd the hot and cold together by accident.


Not a chance. They are completely separate.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

It may be that "somebody" accidentally connected the hot and cold water lines together. My previous plumber did that and it caused similar problems. I never used him again, and yes he held a license and a union card.

One of our plumbers will weigh in shortly I'm sure.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

B.Scott said:


> If the water runs hot, then cold I'd say you tee'd the hot and cold together by accident.


Sorry B.Scott, we must have been typing at the same time.

Eerily similar responses though!


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Is there a way to take the shower valve out of the circuit? Probably no shut-off valves. But maybe the plumbers have a way of closing off the shower valve, without going bonkers. 

Just saying from a troubleshooting p.o.v. if you could eliminate the shower, and the problem persists, ceases, at least you know where to start.. or not.


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

I honestly don't see how that is possible in this situation. Pipes were cut below a shut off T added and feeds the shower. There would be no way they could be connected together.


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

flashheatingand said:


> Is there a way to take the shower valve out of the circuit? Probably no shut-off valves. But maybe the plumbers have a way of closing off the shower valve, without going bonkers.
> 
> Just saying from a troubleshooting p.o.v. if you could eliminate the shower, and the problem persists, ceases, at least you know where to start.. or not.


Yes I put shut offs on the shower as well. This is really stressing me out. Lol. I will put a crude drawing up soon. Just gotta get the kids to bed. Lol


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

flashheatingand said:


> Is there a way to take the shower valve out of the circuit? Probably no shut-off valves. But maybe the plumbers have a way of closing off the shower valve, without going bonkers.
> 
> Just saying from a troubleshooting p.o.v. if you could eliminate the shower, and the problem persists, ceases, at least you know where to start.. or not.


True! Maybe it's a defective mixer valve (missing some type of part) that is allowing the cold and hot to mix together (if that's really the problem)

I'll be curious to see what Ocon, rex, and KTS have to say.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

The hot and cold are attached somewhere and those Moen mixing valves will not work anywhere in the house until you disconnect the problem area.


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

Here is my crude drawing. Sounds like maybe a faulty mixer valve. That's not a good thing here. If that's the case I have to pull the entire tub again.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

there should be stops built into the mixing valves ( supposed to be at least by code here ) shut them. See if problem goes away. Where is sh head in your dwg?

You can't have 1 spout w/2 valves 

Valve may be in 90 deg off or feeds to spout port

Nothing is impossible.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Start by shutting down what you touched and see if the house goes back to normal


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

rrk said:


> there should be stops built into the mixing valves ( supposed to be at least by code here ) shut them. See if problem goes away. Where is sh head in your dwg?
> 
> You can't have 1 spout w/2 valves
> 
> Nothing is impossible.



Stops are not enforced here...we can still buy without


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Is it a tank feed system. Or is it pressurized? Sounds like an air lock.

If it's a low pressure system or tank feed then turn on both taps and put your hand over the outlet. This will push water from the cold into the hot and clear most air locks.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

If your drawing is accurate and you actually have shut offs in line, shut them off and see if they regain their hot water in the rest of the house.

That's all I've got for you.

Please keep us posted.


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

Inner10 said:


> It's a scam but I'd say most water heaters are rented.


Agree !! Up here at least 90% are rented about $10 a month from the gas company. They provide free service to their units as well though.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Shut the cold supply valve off on the heater. Then turn the mixer on. What happens? Then turn on the sink. What happens?

If you crossed the lines it will run. This will tell you that.

If you pass this test then put a new cartridge in. You need to start eliminating potential problems to arrive at the issue. 

Is the house old? Are the pipes galvanized steel? Rust? 

How is it you have a plumber that comes to check a water heater yet somehow you are doing plumbing? If you are qualified to cut open water lines on a persons home you should have the skill set required to check a water heater without calling a plumber. If you are not able to simply check if a water heater works you should not be cutting open another mans water supply.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

I noticed on post 15, in regards to the drawing. Why are the shut-offs installed downstream of the tees?


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## nicktools561 (May 29, 2013)

Chris Johnson said:


> Start by shutting down what you touched and see if the house goes back to normal


Yeah, I would definitely do the same. Worst case if it does not go back to normal, then you can prove that you are not liable for repairs.


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

Oconomowoc said:


> Shut the cold supply valve off on the heater. Then turn the mixer on. What happens? Then turn on the sink. What happens?
> 
> If you crossed the lines it will run. This will tell you that.
> 
> ...


I had no knowledge of the problem until after the client called the water heater guy. Of coarse I could tell if it was working. :laughing: 

The pipes in this house are all pex. It's an old home though. So I'm sure it was re piped not too long ago.


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

flashheatingand said:


> I noticed on post 15, in regards to the drawing. Why are the shut-offs installed downstream of the tees?


The thing is that in order to get the tub in ( its a drop in) and connect to the supply it was necessary to use the flex lines (like a faucet) 
I did however install new shutoffs on the lines that feed the shower as well.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Tub spout on a drop in fed through little faucet lines... The water will get cold before its done filling...


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

TimelessQuality said:


> Tub spout on a drop in fed through little faucet lines... The water will get cold before its done filling...


This is jus a remove and replace. That's how the last one was done. Lol


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

NothingButBath said:


> The thing is that in order to get the tub in ( its a drop in) and connect to the supply it was necessary to use the flex lines (like a faucet)
> I did however install new shutoffs on the lines that feed the shower as well.


And all of this is going to be hidden behind the wall without access?


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Obviously, it's a missing neutral.:laughing:

Well, really I'd go check all the valves back near the heater - I've seen all sorts of weird shunts and criss-crossed before, and maybe when you turned it all back on after doing your work you opened a valve that is normally shut. Is there a hot water recirculating pump? I can't remember the details any more, but a long time ago I remember something like this situation with a circulating pump. Gonna have to go down and stare at the pump in my house and see if it jogs anything loose.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I learned the hard way years ago with pressure balance mixing valves. We had one on back order so when doing the tub that had no valve during rough in we tied the hot and cold lines together to seal them, I'm thinking we had no test caps with us.

Couldn't get hot water anywhere in the house...pulled my hair out as the tank was working...just opened the pressure relief valve and hot water was flowing just fine.

Someone smarter then me told me to uncouple the hot and cold we tied together and see what happens...wallah hot water was flowing everywhere.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Thats why I think the valve is rotated 90 deg and supplies are going in head and spout ports, basically a feed thru.

I think is is probably something simple that is just overlooked.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Last bath I did they thought the lines were crossed but after gutting it we found that the diverter was installed upside down. Turning to the left never brought hot water.

Its something stupid no doubt.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

I remind everyone the O.P. said it's happening at every tap in the house. It could be because water's feeding through the mixer, but from his picture the mixer's on a detour off of a separate branch to the tub spout. That seemed to me like an awfully long detour to affect everything in the house. Maybe, though.


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

Chris Johnson said:


> I learned the hard way years ago with pressure balance mixing valves. We had one on back order so when doing the tub that had no valve during rough in we tied the hot and cold lines together to seal them, I'm thinking we had no test caps with us.
> 
> Couldn't get hot water anywhere in the house...pulled my hair out as the tank was working...just opened the pressure relief valve and hot water was flowing just fine.
> 
> Someone smarter then me told me to uncouple the hot and cold we tied together and see what happens...wallah hot water was flowing everywhere.


I did the same for one night at my house, in a pinch. The misses was allot hotter than her shower was. Went and got all kinds of caps the next day.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

CarpenterSFO said:


> I remind everyone the O.P. said it's happening at every tap in the house. It could be because water's feeding through the mixer, but from his picture the mixer's on a detour off of a separate branch to the tub spout. That seemed to me like an awfully long detour to affect everything in the house. Maybe, though.


post 15 shows where the the two could feasibly mix. He indicated there were other shut off valves off of those tee's, so, one could close off those valves to check it out. But, clearly this is a situation that one needs to be there. 

Hopefully he dials us in on the end result


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

rrk said:


> Usually if they are installed upside down just rotating the cartridge 180 will fix the hot/cold problem but the trim sometimes cant be rotated


Very wrong.

If the hot and cold lines are Reversed on a moen, you can spin the cartridge.
If the rough-in valve is upside down - your screwed. Water would come out of the spout and shower head at the same time and/or also mess with the mixer/cartridge operation.

My bet is the Delta valve is upside down :whistling:


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

flashheatingand said:


> post 15 shows where the the two could feasibly mix. He indicated there were other shut off valves off of those tee's, so, one could close off those valves to check it out. But, clearly this is a situation that one needs to be there.
> 
> Hopefully he dials us in on the end result


I will be there to figure this one out tomorrow. I also have my plumber stopping by to see if he can figure it out. I will take some Picts for you guys as well. 

Hope I don't come out of this looking like too big an idiot to you all. :laughing:


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

NothingButBath said:


> Hope I don't come out of this looking like too big an idiot to you all. :laughing:


We'll be sure to let you know. Of course we all know about these possible screw-ups on a hypothetical basis only.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Tech Dawg said:


> Very wrong.
> 
> If the hot and cold lines are Reversed on a moen, you can spin the cartridge.
> If the rough-in valve is upside down - your screwed. Water would come out of the spout and shower head at the same time and/or also mess with the mixer/cartridge operation.
> ...


Read what I said.
Not very wrong, if the valve is being fed thru the head port and the spout port it acts like a coupler there is no water coming out of the valve until the valve is turned on. Water will come out but the temp will not be able to be regulated.

If the valve is upside down only diff is hot cold switched, if 90 deg rotated discharge ports are at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

Ok. All is good now. I spun the mixing valve. Boom hot water. 
I guess you learn something every day. Thanks a million guys.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

NothingButBath said:


> Ok. All is good now. I spun the mixing valve. Boom hot water.
> I guess you learn something every day. Thanks a million guys.


I will have to remember this if a home has no hot water. So why was it causing no hot water at the other faucets?


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

BCConstruction said:


> I will have to remember this if a home has no hot water. So why was it causing no hot water at the other faucets?


I can only assume the tub faucet mixing valve was allowing the cold water to pass into the hot. Thus flooding the hot pipes with cold water. 

Honestly it still makes no sense to me. I would have thought if there was a problem with the tub faucet it would only affect the tub. Not the entire house. Oh well lesson learned and client is happy again.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

rrk said:


> Read what I said.
> Not very wrong, if the valve is being fed thru the head port and the spout port it acts like a coupler there is no water coming out of the valve until the valve is turned on. Water will come out but the temp will not be able to be regulated.
> 
> If the valve is upside down only diff is hot cold switched, if 90 deg rotated discharge ports are at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock


When I was employed, one of the idiot installers installed a moen up-side down. Water will come out of both tub and shower at the same time and water won't mix right. This was confirmed after 3 more trainees did the same in the near future. There's a reason why the shower head port says "up"


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> We'll be sure to let you know. Of course we all know about these possible screw-ups on a hypothetical basis only.


Everyone of us has done something dumb like this at one time or another. Its one of those "what was I thinking" moments.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Tech Dawg said:


> When I was employed, one of the idiot installers installed a moen up-side down. Water will come out of both tub and shower at the same time and water won't mix right. This was confirmed after 3 more trainees did the same in the near future. There's a reason why the shower head port says "up"


Like I said it feeds through the valve, with the valve in the off position


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Yeah you get the same thing if you leave the rough in test plug, and don't install the cartridge...

Or so I've heard...


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Nothingbut... Maybe it's just me, but I can not understand your drawing..... maybe everyone else can

1)you're showing two "faucets"....that is meant to be a shower mixing valve right... is it temp controlled or pressure balanced?

2) Please label your feed and stops clearly.... I think I know, but not sure

3)You are showing a T for a shower feed (I think) in lower right hand corner, before a stop I think, what the heck is that

We know you can't supply a picture, ut a clear drawing would sure help.. I'm sure you do a neat and clean plumbing wall.... I'll bet you can give us a little better drawing.:thumbsup:

Is that flex behind the wall? Did you remove the cartridge.

Best

Peter EDIT: OOPS.... MIssed a page... didn't know it was solved....Sorry Nothingbut


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Nothingbut... Maybe it's just me, but I can not understand your drawing..... maybe everyone else can
> 
> 1)you're showing two "faucets"....that is meant to be a shower mixing valve right... is it temp controlled or pressure balanced?
> 
> ...


No Biggie!!! But yes those are T joints before a shut off. Those T's feed a separate shower control. I did put shut offs in a accessible spot for the shower control. 

Here is a pict of the final tub.


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

Gotta ask.....what's with the chrome and bronze combo? Isn't the vertical bar for a shower head?


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## NothingButBath (Mar 18, 2013)

TAHomeRepairs said:


> Gotta ask.....what's with the chrome and bronze combo? Isn't the vertical bar for a shower head?


Didn't think if slip that past you guys. The client has all new towel bars and the like to match. But insisted on installing them, themselves. I did remove the old shower head bar however.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

tenon0774 said:


> Is the mixing valve installed, right side up?
> 
> ...instead of up-side down?





NothingButBath said:


> Ok. All is good now. I spun the mixing valve. Boom hot water.
> I guess you learn something every day. Thanks a million guys.


:whistling


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