# Pay When Paid



## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

rdr8887 said:


> I don't think I did a good job at explaining myself. You would get partial payments. Pay periods with owners are typically every two weeks. So, unless you did all the work within a two week period, you expect a paycheck for the portion of work complete.
> 
> Week 1 & 2 - You ordered materials. You would submit an invoice showing they are purchased. You get paid for that. The next draw request for the owner would include your material pricing. He pays me within 48 hours, I pay you.
> 
> ...


GC pays for the materials when they are purchased. I do not front materials for non commercial projects.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Unlike some of the others, I occasionally do "pay when paid" work--but only small jobs, for trusted colleagues in a bind.



> And you float all the cash and risk for a non-paying owner?


You seriously expect a sub to assume risk for YOUR job? Just as a GC expects to be paid in full when his work is done, so does a sub. It should be and is completely irrelevant to him whether you get paid, let alone when. His contract is with you.

If you don't want any risks, get a job. :thumbsup:


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I am in a different line of work where I should be done with a few days max, not weeks. Even then, if it is a long drawn out project, you should always stay ahead on payments. You know how you go to the gas station and you have to buy the gas before you can use it? Sort of the same thing, you should be getting paid for the work before you do it. If you don't get paid for it, don't move on with the project.


Bingo....But sometimes the bank is looking over your shoulder and questioning everything. Sometimes it is not an option.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> Bingo....But sometimes the bank is looking over your shoulder and questioning everything. Sometimes it is not an option.


What do you think my hourly guys would say if I told them they would get paid when I did instead of on Friday? If I have to have money to pay my guys regardless of getting paid myself, then you as the GC should have the money to pay your guys.(subs) Or don't GC


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

As already stated your contract with any HO has nothing to do with your contract with your subs. Subs are usually paid within 30 days of completion.

It really is non of your concern if the sub has purchased materials or not. Your sub contract should be spelling out payment schedules if it's a large project.

I know GCs who will finance huge amounts of money. I also know GCs (like myself) who finance nothing. The HO finances the project. Either way, it's not your subs problem or their business for that matter.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

Okay, so the general consensus is that I am a bad GC because I am protecting my company. I'd advise everyone to do the same. How many of you have LLC's? Why? 

Would you rather work and wait a two weeks to get paid? Or would you rather not get this job? You might find out you never have a problem and established a good relationship. If you have too much work and don't need anymore, we probably are not having this conversation in the first place. If your companies financial position will not allow for that (IE, not enough cash in the bank), tell me that ahead of time and let's see what we can work out.

Who are the largest and most successful construction companies in the world? They all use "pay when paid" clause wherever it is allowed. And the same goes for subcontractors, architects, engineers, etc. There are many very successful subcontractors that sign for it everyday.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I don't think anyone would mind waiting two weeks. The problem is that if I'm a sub for you, my payment is tied to yours. Unacceptable.

Just because others use any given system doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean you should also.

Run your company as you see fit. Good luck with the sub thing.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> Okay, so the general consensus is that I am a bad GC because I am protecting my company. I'd advise everyone to do the same. How many of you have LLC's? Why?
> 
> Would you rather work and wait a two weeks to get paid? Or would you rather not get this job? You might find out you never have a problem and established a good relationship. If you have too much work and don't need anymore, we probably are not having this conversation in the first place. If your companies financial position will not allow for that (IE, not enough cash in the bank), tell me that ahead of time and let's see what we can work out.
> 
> Who are the largest and most successful construction companies in the world? They all use "pay when paid" clause wherever it is allowed. And the same goes for subcontractors, architects, engineers, etc. There are many very successful subcontractors that sign for it everyday.


I don't know who has this quote but it fits perfectly here. " I never lost a penny on a job I didn't get"
If you will work with all your subs then why do you need it in your contract? Seems like a shady way to deal to me and I would never work with that in any contract. You pay your subs regardless of you getting paid. That's why you make the big bucks. Or not. I doubt you will get many subs to sign that contract.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> Okay, so the general consensus is that I am a bad GC because I am *protecting my company*.


From what?, and by what means? If you have enough faith in the strength of your contracts and your solvency, why should there be any need to "share the risk"????


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> What do you think my hourly guys would say if I told them they would get paid when I did instead of on Friday? If I have to have money to pay my guys regardless of getting paid myself, then you as the GC should have the money to pay your guys.(subs) Or don't GC


The same thing mine would say, I'm quitting. I pay them regardless of whether the owner pays me. However, the subcontracted portion of the work will get paid after owner pays. 

It's interesting that we don't see this more now with the way things are. And if I were you, I'd lien if I weren't paid regardless of the relationship. Don't make that mistake. The law says you have "Three Months" to file one. 

Good information here. Thanks for the input so far.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Food for thought. Do you know why the worst subs do production housing? Because the builders pay sh!t. Good subs who can produce quality work will not work for them. Custom builders excluded here.

So if you want QUALITY subs, you will need to treat them fairly. Again, fairly.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

480sparky said:


> So all your jobs are 30 days or less?


I hope they are two days or less. I shoot for one day.

I was talking about when the projected is completed though.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

This is not meant to be a "shady" practice at all. We are in this together to build a job for a client. We all hurt if that client doesn't pay, not just me. But how often are we really talking about this happening? Hopefully never. Other than that its a stead flow of money every two weeks. Should you be a trade that has a small half day project and you are done, we work that out in advance. Maybe you perform on Thursday when I turn in a bill for Friday. You're paid Monday or Tuesday at the latest. Something could be worked out I'm sure.

Yes, I am speaking in generals and I didn't cover nearly enough scenarios....so don't beat me up too bad. I'm hungry...


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

I understand your two week concept. In your description to RS, you only mentioned it in the capacity of your contract with the sub, not the HO.

The problem lies here. If you end up in a situation where you are stealing from Peter to pay Paul, nobody knows that but yourself. I have no way of verifying whether you billed and got paid for my contract or not.

By the time it gets hashed out, you could be into me for 15-20K on a 50K project, if not more. If I'm supplying materials AND labor, could be much more.

My contract is worded for weekly installments, billed on Wednesday, payable Friday. In 18 years of business, I've never waited more than 21 days for a payment and it was a unique contract written to a HO working on a construction loan. 

One other thing, I've never floated material on a framing job. Labor and gun nails only. I will never risk being beaten for materials on a framing contract.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

katoman said:


> Food for thought. Do you know why the worst subs do production housing? Because the builders pay sh!t. Good subs who can produce quality work will not work for them. Custom builders excluded here.
> 
> So if you want QUALITY subs, you will need to treat them fairly. Again, fairly.


And I don't always go with the low bidder. Keep that in mind. I go for the best value. Professionalism says a lot. 

I would surely hope that not doing "pay when paid" is only way to be considered fair and a good GC to work for. I'd like to think their are many other things like.... not beating you to death on price, not making you do work at their house for a fair shot at a job, or maybe not being a complete tool to work with. 

Maybe I'm wrong though.....


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## Robs660 (Jan 15, 2012)

If we contract paid when paid then we bond the job. We limit the risk and will submit partial, or weekly AIA style requests for payment. If a client does not pay we notify everyone on the payment app and work with the client and team to get the payment. We have great subs who work with us and usually charge 1 to 3 percent more knowing it is a paid when paid contract. Clients know this as well. Many times it is the bank or company financing the project that slows down the process.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> This is not meant to be a "shady" practice at all. We are in this together to build a job for a client. We all hurt if that client doesn't pay, not just me. ...


Here's the part you got wrong. If I'm your sub we may work together to accomplish a goal but that's it. If the client doesn't pay YOU hurt. NOT ME. Period.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> ....so don't beat me up too bad. I'm hungry...


:laughing:

I hope you don't get the impression we are beating you up too bad.

But you asked, and you will receive!:clap:

So far I think this is a pretty healthy discussion.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> And I don't always go with the low bidder. Keep that in mind. I go for the best value. Professionalism says a lot.
> 
> I would surely hope that not doing "pay when paid" is only way to be considered fair and a good GC to work for. I'd like to think their are many other things like.... not beating you to death on price, not making you do work at their house for a fair shot at a job, or maybe not being a complete tool to work with.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong though.....


There are lots of things that make a fair GC but all the things you mention don't matter if at the end I don't get paid. As a sub I work for the GC NOT the HO. So why would my pay depend on the HO?


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

loneframer said:


> I understand your two week concept. In your description to RS, you only mentioned it in the capacity of your contract with the sub, not the HO.
> 
> The problem lies here. If you end up in a situation where you are stealing from Peter to pay Paul, nobody knows that but yourself. I have no way of verifying whether you billed and got paid for my contract or not.
> 
> ...


Touche. This is probably a question better asked a different way. What if the GC you have been working with for the past 5 years (good relationship) tells you that he has to start writing contracts like this as a company policy. Would you drop him? He gets good owners and has never stiffed you.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> Touche. This is probably a question better asked a different way. What if the GC you have been working with for the past 5 years (good relationship) tells you that he has to start writing contracts like this as a company policy. Would you drop him? He gets good owners and has never stiffed you.


So let's say I'm a sub for you. I have 8 men under me that I'm responsible for, plus myself or course. Do you expect that I will put them and myself at risk just because you change "your policy".

I'm not in the risk business, I'm in the construction business. If you wish to take risk, fine, but don't pass it along to me. I would refuse, sorry.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

I think I would skip you and go on to the next job.You can't expect subs to do that.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

rselectric1 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I hope you don't get the impression we are beating you up too bad.
> 
> ...


Nope. No bruises. I knew the general consensus, but I honestly thought more would be up for it. What happens when I pay your deposit and you don't show up? You fold? It happens every day.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

Cole82 said:


> Yes a GOOD GC has the capital or line of credit to float 200k until they get paid.
> 
> Cole


This hits the nail on the head. If you need money for your cash flow, borrow it. Don't use your subs as your interest-free bank. 

Try this scenario...my electrical work is AOK but there are problems with the plumbing and tile. The owner holds up the payment, so you hold up payment to me. 

I protect my company by not contracting with yours.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> What happens when I pay your deposit and you don't show up? You fold? It happens every day.


That's where checking out subcontractors via references and other means becomes important research (when selecting a new one)

I'll fire one back.

Let's say the job gets in trouble for whatever reason...underbid...etc. Doesn't matter...

What's to stop you from taking a cash buyout under the table and stating on paper that the HO never paid you. Where does that leave the subs?


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> Nope. No bruises. I knew the general consensus, but I honestly thought more would be up for it. What happens when I pay your deposit and you don't show up? You fold? It happens every day.


The only time I ask for a deposit it's for materials and due after materials are On-site. So how could you lose? what you are saying though is I can work for 2 weeks and then if the HO isn't happy with the electrical work and because of that doesn't pay you then I don't get paid. No way I'd work like that.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

rdr - you sound like a stand up GC. If your subs have been with you for five years then the relationship is good between you.

Don't mess it up. Deal with your contractural problems yourself. Why pass it on to your subs and risk loosing them?

If you're not comfortable with what the Ho wants to do, work to change it.

Just my 2 cents.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

rselectric1 said:


> That's where checking out subcontractors via references and other means becomes important research (when selecting a new one)
> 
> I'll fire one back.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Do your research. What if the research tells you I pay my subs everytime?


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> The only time I ask for a deposit it's for materials and due after materials are On-site. So how could you lose? what you are saying though is I can work for 2 weeks and then if the HO isn't happy with the electrical work and because of that doesn't pay you then I don't get paid. No way I'd work like that.


The owner can withhold the tile guys portion of the work and pay for all else. Plus my milestones are start dates, not finish dates. It helps with that.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> The owner can withhold the tile guys portion of the work and pay for all else. Plus my milestones are start dates, not finish dates. It helps with that.


Like I said earlier. If you are willing to work it out so easily then why do you need it in your contract? Just be fair. Pay who has earned their pay and go on. I would work with you like that. But not if you have a clause that leaves you an out and leaves me holding the bag.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

You still don't get it.

If you don't have the financial resources to pay your subs, then you have no choice but to try to do what you are saying.

A good general will either have the money or the resources lined up to pay whether the homeowner pays or not.

By doing things your way, the sub, not a party to the contract with the homeowner is asked to finance the job. not a good way for a sub to remain in business.

Now are there circumstances to which I would work under these rules? yep, but not in this economic climate.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> Like I said earlier. If you are willing to work it out so easily then why do you need it in your contract? Just be fair. Pay who has earned their pay and go on. I would work with you like that. But not if you have a clause that leaves you an out and leaves me holding the bag.


You're right. I should hold it. Because I'm rich? 

Curious, of those who are obviously against this, how many of you all get the GC to sign your contracts? Actually, I'm not even sure this has to be written, it's just a law. Meaning we can agree on two week payment schedule, but, I could still withhold payment until paid. 

But it doesn't leave me an out. I don't get paid either. It's not like I get to take your money and have a party with it. I have to pay you by law and the terms of our contract. I would be a fool not too.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> What if the research tells you I pay my subs everytime?


Then all would be good...But I'd still cross out that clause and have you initial it.:laughing:

I just don't understand the need for it if you are on the up and up. If you forecast no issues, and your past has not indicated a need for this clause, then why do you want it?


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

Framer53 said:


> You still don't get it.
> 
> If you don't have the financial resources to pay your subs, then you have no choice but to try to do what you are saying.
> 
> ...


The contract between my firm and your firm states otherwise. They are linked. Your contract with me is in existence solely because of the contract between myself and the owner. The language ties the two together. 

I am a general contractor. Not a bank. I don't do financing either.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> You're right. I should hold it. Because I'm rich?
> 
> Curious, of those who are obviously against this, how many of you all get the GC to sign your contracts? Actually, I'm not even sure this has to be written, it's just a law. Meaning we can agree on two week payment schedule, but, I could still withhold payment until paid.
> 
> But it doesn't leave me an out. I don't get paid either. It's not like I get to take your money and have a party with it. I have to pay you by law and the terms of our contract. I would be a fool not too.


It leaves you an out because if I want to remain in business I still have to pay my materials and my labor. YOU on the other hand don't have to pay me because you haven't been paid. YOU get to stay in business. YOU just get another sub while I go bankrupt because YOU didn't pay me.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

rselectric1 said:


> Then all would be good...But I'd still cross out that clause and have you initial it.:laughing:
> 
> I just don't understand the need for it if you are on the up and up. If you forecast no issues, and your past has not indicated a need for this clause, then why do you want it?


Protection for a very real future possibility. Keep cash close to home. Again, look at Turner Construction, Holder Construction, other large companies. They do the same things. They are in great financial shape. This was done long before today's economy.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> It leaves you an out because if I want to remain in business I still have to pay my materials and my labor. YOU on the other hand don't have to pay me because you haven't been paid. YOU get to stay in business. YOU just get another sub while I go bankrupt because YOU didn't pay me.


I don't think you understand that GC's have overhead as well. We buy materials, have employees, and have bills that get paid whether this owner owner pays us or not. So no, get enough of this going on at the wrong time and you can't pay bills on time. Can't pay your bills on time you have failed.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> Protection for a very real future possibility. Keep cash close to home. Again, look at Turner Construction, Holder Construction, other large companies. They do the same things. They are in great financial shape. This was done long before today's economy.


I'll bet they couldn't when they started. How does your balance sheet equity line compare with theirs? :whistling


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> I don't think you understand that GC's have overhead as well. We buy materials, have employees, and have bills that get paid whether this owner owner pays us or not. So no, get enough of this going on at the wrong time and you can't pay bills on time. Can't pay your bills on time you have failed.


The same can be said for subs....And I pay my bills on time by not signing contracts like you are suggesting...There really is a simple solution that would allow you to not have any risk and get rid of that F***ed up clause altogether....Simply have the HO finance the job. Make sure they pay you enough money.at the right times so that you can pay your bills and subs too. They miss a payment stop work. Easy enough.. by the end of the job they should have paid for everything. All that should be left is a small amount of your profit.It's all in how you schedule your draws..


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I have been involved in residential construction for almost 30 years. I have run the gamut from small remodels to working on mega million dollar houses. I have never heard any GC ever ask any sub to wait until he was paid. It aint gonna fly here, nor anywhere else I would guess.


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## CarpenterRN (Dec 3, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> I am a general contractor. Not a bank. I don't do financing either.


But it sounds like from everything you've said so far that you expect the subs to finance the job if you don't get paid by the HO.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

I think the fundatmental problem that the op has is he is financing the jobs and passing the financing on to the subs. If the draw schedule for the gc is solid the money will always be there to pay because the gc has already been paid.

Now on the other hand, if the gc is underwater and is using money from the next job to finish the last job then yeah, deposits from the current job aren't going to fund the current project. 

There was a company in my town that operated this way for apparently many years. Everything was hunky dory while they were growing. When the crash hit and there was no more work the gc stiffed every single sub on a ten million dollar project. Windows, doors, building materials all the way down to the painters got butkis. These were companies that had been doing business together for 15 20 years. 

As a sub don't put up with this - you will get screwed sooner or later. As a gc if you're doing this - letting the money get ahead of you - don't do it the house of cards will come crashing down sooner or later.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

I am not a builder but I will try to give an example...GC gets job and down payment. Downpayment should cover all gc costs to get the job plus get through until site work is done. Get draw. Next draw covers foundation plumbing and whatever else needs done before framing. get another draw to cover the next phase of work ie framing. and it goes on and on. let the HO finance it. Not you and not the subs for sure.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> Nope. No bruises. I knew the general consensus, but I honestly thought more would be up for it. What happens when I pay your deposit and you don't show up? You fold? It happens every day.


Pay a draw as work is completed instead of a deposit if this is your concern. Typically if you've been in the business long enough you should have your "ace" in the hole subs to where this would not be a concern at all.


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## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

The big problem I see with your concept is your talking residential not commercial. 

Commercial work it does work out this way for subs for 30 day terms. After that the phone will ring, doesn't matter what the contract says.

Big difference when dealing with a home owner or even a home builder and a Public works project. 

If you are involved in residential work and think subs will work under the pay when you get paid rule you are dreaming.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Everyone has bills.

I don't get it. You are hiring the sub to complete a job for you. That means you are in a contract with the sub. Wouldn't you be agreeing to the payment terms of the sub?

I don't see the way you want to operate being beneficial for your business long term. I don't know if you would ever find quality subs.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> I am not a builder but I will try to give an example...GC gets job and down payment. Downpayment should cover all gc costs to get the job plus get through until site work is done. Get draw. Next draw covers foundation plumbing and whatever else needs done before framing. get another draw to cover the next phase of work ie framing. and it goes on and on. let the HO finance it. Not you and not the subs for sure.


What about the bank that won't pay for work unless it is in place. They won't.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

rdr8887 said:


> And you float all the cash and risk for a non-paying owner? What happens when that happens on three jobs on the same month? Are you carrying a liquid cashflow of over 200k?


 Yes, you assume the risk. Financing the project is your job as the GC. I either have the funds in operating capitol , deposit or draw before allowing any work to be done. The subs work for me, and me alone. They don't awnser to the HO, they only have to deal with me. You turn a bill in Wednesday you get paid Friday, if you invoice Thursday, you get paid next Friday.

My contract is with the HO, theirs is with me, period. I wouldn't hinge my word and name on someone else paying. What if they NEVER pay, the sub doesn't get paid????


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

jawtrs said:


> Yes, you assume the risk. Financing the project is your job as the GC. I either have the funds in operating capitol , deposit or draw before allowing any work to be done. The subs work for me, and me alone. They don't awnser to the HO, they only have to deal with me. You turn a bill in Wednesday you get paid Friday, if you invoice Thursday, you get paid next Friday.
> 
> My contract is with the HO, theirs is with me, period. I wouldn't hinge my word and name on someone else paying. What if they NEVER pay, the sub doesn't get paid????


Doesnt your mom do that for you? :laughing: :jester:


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## jmacd (Jul 14, 2009)

How long does it take for bank inspection and payment. Two weeks could work, but you need to pay the sub either way. With bank money or your money.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> What about the bank that won't pay for work unless it is in place. They won't.


Like I said I'm not a builder. But I would think you could still do it if you got enough of a deposit. As long as your deposit covers enough then set your draws accordingly to the progress. And YOU may have to finance a little. But it limits your exsposure and you can still pay your subs on time. Have you had subs that will work under a contract like this? In residential construction? I mean really we are in the samr area and I need work. But I would Never Never Never agree to what you are saying.Now if you want a partner then we can talk about paid when paid.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

rdr8887 said:


> Okay, so the general consensus is that I am a bad GC because I am protecting my company. I'd advise everyone to do the same. How many of you have LLC's? Why?
> 
> Would you rather work and wait a two weeks to get paid? Or would you rather not get this job? You might find out you never have a problem and established a good relationship. If you have too much work and don't need anymore, we probably are not having this conversation in the first place. If your companies financial position will not allow for that (IE, not enough cash in the bank), tell me that ahead of time and let's see what we can work out.
> 
> Who are the largest and most successful construction companies in the world? They all use "pay when paid" clause wherever it is allowed. And the same goes for subcontractors, architects, engineers, etc. There are many very successful subcontractors that sign for it everyday.



I WOULD call you a bad business man, and worse, if you ever didn't pay someone, because you didn't get paid, I wouldn't think you were much of a man, period. 

Don't give me that BS about an LLC and what not. That's a cop out. We have a professional company with a very solid gross revenue, and I would NEVER consider this as a good business practice. We have done projects in the mid to high six figures, and never come close to not paying on time. 

No excuse, period.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Doesnt your mom do that for you? :laughing: :jester:


 Yep, her and the book keeper, thank god. That might be the only time i would be late paying, if her and the book keeper skipped town. I'd be lost


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

rdr8887 said:


> What about the bank that won't pay for work unless it is in place. They won't.


My clients are responsible for payments, not the bank. When financing, the bank agrees to inspect and pay within 7 business days, or no dice.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

jawtrs said:


> Yep, her and the book keeper, thank god. That might be the only time o would be late paying, if her and the book keeper skipped town. I'd be lost


I admire what you guys have. Im where your father was and can only hope my kids treat it like you do. I often enjoy reading your posts and can tell you have become an asset to your families business. Most kids f up what was built for them, I hope my kids turns out like you. :thumbsup:


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

I guess it really doesn't matter. I'd have to consult an attorney to be sure. Georgia law states that a GC doesn't have to pay until paid. Be sure to get your deposits from your GC before beginning work.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> I guess it really doesn't matter. I'd have to consult an attorney to be sure. Georgia law states that a GC doesn't have to pay until paid. Be sure to get your deposits from your GC before beginning work.


I really am curious what the name of your company is? I didn't see it in your profile...


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

rdr8887 said:


> I guess it really doesn't matter. I'd have to consult an attorney to be sure. Georgia law states that a GC doesn't have to pay until paid. Be sure to get your deposits from your GC before beginning work.


Its against the law to keep donkeys in bath tubs in Georgia too..


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> I guess it really doesn't matter. I'd have to consult an attorney to be sure. Georgia law states that a GC doesn't have to pay until paid. Be sure to get your deposits from your GC before beginning work.


I don't care what the law says. It's not right. You ain't from around here are ya....That's what you will hear alot from guys north of Atlanta


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I admire what you guys have. Im where your father was and can only hope my kids treat it like you do. I often enjoy reading your posts and can tell you have become an asset to your families business. Most kids f up what was built for them, I hope my kids turns out like you. :thumbsup:



I appreciate that.

I feel lucky to have been able to get in right after he started this company, and to have helped build what it is now, and what i hope it will become. Certainly a major benefit to be able to learn from mistakes he made coming up, instead of with my own pocketbook.

One thing really sticks out, right now, that relates to this thread. When I was in middle school, he was still building houses for him self, before he shut down to be a PM for another builder. One of his customers was late paying him, for some reason I can't remember, and he was broke. He took am advance on a credit card to pay the plumbing contractor. He got paid the next week, but I still remember him drawing money at an ATM. Hell of a good reason to build operating reserves, and one of many things I learned first hand without it affecting my wallet.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

rdr8887 said:


> And do you all honestly believe my intention would be to take your money or purposefully not pay? Is really this clause something you would never work with someone about? What if this GC kept a clean jobsite for you to work in, bought random dinners for the crews on site, gave you gift certificates to nice restaurants after a good job.
> 
> I'm just saying, there are other things to worry about. Probably much bigger risks you take on a day to day basis. Maybe once or twice over a 2 year period it takes 3 weeks rather than 2 to get paid. I bet that isn't much worse that you already see.
> 
> ...


 Free lunch and gift certificates don't pay the bills.

My advice is get a good deposit, and write your contract so that your first draw milestone will be hit during that draw. If they pay late, the project stalls. This way you will always be able to pay on time. 

What kind of projects do you do? New homes, renos, or remodels? All the above? It works at any scale. Trust me.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

We have done work for gc's that paid this way. We agreed because the dollar amount wasn't huge and we still got paid in 20 days or so. We also will pay this way to our subs. However our invoices are due within 5 buisiness days and we pay our subs within 10 business days. So our subs are all ok to wait 10 days for their money. We let them all know when we are submitting our invoice to the client and if they want paid on this invoice to get us their bill. If the bill is small..under $5000 we will just pay it and get reimbursed when we get paid. I have never gotten paid the day the job is done nor have I paid someone the day the job was done. My subs all give us great work and are very willing to continue to work with us. I don't think ten days +/- is that long to wait to get paid if you are an established company.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> And do you all honestly believe my intention would be to take your money or purposefully not pay? Is really this clause something you would never work with someone about? What if this GC kept a clean jobsite for you to work in, bought random dinners for the crews on site, gave you gift certificates to nice restaurants after a good job.
> 
> I'm just saying, there are other things to worry about. Probably much bigger risks you take on a day to day basis. Maybe once or twice over a 2 year period it takes 3 weeks rather than 2 to get paid. I bet that isn't much worse that you already see.
> 
> ...


YES it's that important. I would never work for a GC under those terms. The job site is clean when I'm there because we clean it. I could care less about gift certificates. Pay me when I'm done.. I'll buy my own dinner. I have no idea if YOUR clients are good or not. MY concern is if YOU are a good customer because YOU are my customer NOT the HO. If my work is complete I will have been paid for it...If it gets damaged afterwords you can pay me to do it over. If you get that money from another sub or not is not my concern.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

If you don't have operating capitol, start a line of credit at the bank. Don't take a bonus until you have 3 months overhead and salary, plus. We just got our salaries for the first two year's in business. Got my first shareholder distribution this last July.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> I'm telling you you will not find good quality subs with that clause in your contract. Just cause it's legal don't make it right. If you can't afford to be in business as a GC ...Then you can't afford to be in business as a GC...Do you have a trade? Maybe you need to do that until you can get the financing you need........


I'm thinking I will definitely get to work with good quality subcontractors. The smart ones will stick around and bid my work while others back away because of the clause. They will get less competition and get paid more anyway. They will realize their risk is negligible and they will take steps to minimize risk. Also, they will know that most of the time I will be able to get the money to pay them before their work is ever in place. In essence, not much different than the current pay schedule trends. 

And most of what I am stating really only applies to when you are signing the GC contracts. For the most part, we wouldn't be signing anyone's price coats. 

Maybe I'll start a thread on indemnification next....:whistling


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

overanalyze said:


> We have done work for gc's that paid this way. We agreed because the dollar amount wasn't huge and we still got paid in 20 days or so. We also will pay this way to our subs. However our invoices are due within 5 buisiness days and we pay our subs within 10 business days. So our subs are all ok to wait 10 days for their money. We let them all know when we are submitting our invoice to the client and if they want paid on this invoice to get us their bill. If the bill is small..under $5000 we will just pay it and get reimbursed when we get paid. I have never gotten paid the day the job is done nor have I paid someone the day the job was done. My subs all give us great work and are very willing to continue to work with us. I don't think ten days +/- is that long to wait to get paid if you are an established company.


I bill every 30 days for alot of my customers. The issue isn't waiting 10 days. the issue is a clause in the contract that says subs don't get paid AT ALL until/if the GC gets paid.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> It doesn't have a name or exist at the moment. Hopefully it will be around for when my son is old enough to be as successful as the previous poster (good job by the way). When beginning, I might not have the reserves to cover a situation where the owner is late on paying and me having to come out of pocket 50k to pay 4 subcontractors anyway. Maybe I can cover it on one but not two. This is why many contractors go out of business within their first year.


Listen up. If you want to gamble, risk the future of your company, the well being of your family, go to Vegas.

Contracting is a tough enough business. LET THE HO FINANCE. I kid you not, I tell them this up front. If they can't foot the bill, let THEM go to the bank.

Same applies to GCs if I'm a sub contractor.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> I bill every 30 days for alot of my customers. The issue isn't waiting 10 days. the issue is a clause in the contract that says subs don't get paid AT ALL until/if the GC gets paid.


Gotcha. We don't have that clause in our contracts to our subs. We honesty have been very fortunate and have only been stiffed by a client once in eleven years and have never stiffed a sub.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> I'm thinking I will definitely get to work with good quality subcontractors. The smart ones will stick around and bid my work while others back away because of the clause. They will get less competition and get paid more anyway. They will realize their risk is negligible and they will take steps to minimize risk. Also, they will know that most of the time I will be able to get the money to pay them before their work is ever in place. In essence, not much different than the current pay schedule trends.
> 
> And most of what I am stating really only applies to when you are signing the GC contracts. For the most part, we wouldn't be signing anyone's price coats.
> 
> Maybe I'll start a thread on indemnification next....:whistling


Not to sound rude but have you ever been a GC on a job of any size? I'm concerned that you may have an unrealistic view of the trades and the crap they will put up with. Anyone with experience will never agree to that sh**. I'm sure you will get some guys that are hungry. But I doubt you will get quality. The guys that do quality will be working for the GCs that guarantee they will be paid.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

overanalyze said:


> Gotcha. We don't have that clause in our contracts to our subs. We honesty have been very fortunate and have only been stiffed by a client once in eleven years and have never stiffed a sub.


 Exactly.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

jawtrs said:


> Exactly.


I wish I could type as fast as you...My thoughts also.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> I wish I could type as fast as you...My thoughts also.


On a smart phone no less:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

summithomeinc said:


> I wish I could type as fast as you...My thoughts also.



You don't have to type..... just use voice recognition software. :whistling


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

overanalyze said:


> Gotcha. We don't have that clause in our contracts to our subs. We honesty have been very fortunate and have only been stiffed by a client once in eleven years and ha
> 
> Very true. And you should pay your subs. And remember, it's "Pay when paid" not "Pay if paid."


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

I've tried to explain different reasons why I think your reasoning is wrong. This is what I REALLY think....How could you expect someone who has done a great job for you. Finished the task that was agreed upon. How could you expect them to not get paid? For any reason? If you can't qualify your customers and they don't pay...YOUR FAULT..If you can't set up a draw system to get you paid in a timely manner..YOUR FAULT...Why Why Why would you expect a sub to not be paid for the work YOU contracted them to do? Do you not see a moral issue with this? Hell with the law..Do you think it's ethical? would you think it was ok if YOU were the one not getting paid? I really can't believe that there are over 100 posts discussing why it's wrong for you to use a contract clause to screw your subs.....but only if you get screwed..otherwise you will pay in 2 or 3 weeks...Hell NO I wouldn't work under that contract clause. I would be insulted if anyone even offered me a contract like that to sign. ok I'm done


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## CarpenterRN (Dec 3, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> And remember, it's "Pay when paid" not "Pay if paid."


So, do the subs get paid if you don't?


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> Not to sound rude but have you ever been a GC on a job of any size? I'm concerned that you may have an unrealistic view of the trades and the crap they will put up with. Anyone with experience will never agree to that sh**. I'm sure you will get some guys that are hungry. But I doubt you will get quality. The guys that do quality will be working for the GCs that guarantee they will be paid.


Yes. I have been a GC for the past 7 years. Before that, I was a cabinet builder for 5 years and worked for an electrical subcontractor for about 2 years I think. I have been around this since I was 15. I have been on both sides of the equation. So, I like to think I am being fair with this.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

One thing to point out. If I have a sub that has performed poorly for his part of the project and the client withholds money for his part, that sub does not get paid till he fixes the problem to my satisfaction. I know that is not the op topic but still worth noting...just because you think your done, you don't get paid till it's done correctly to specs/prints.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

summithomeinc said:


> Not to sound rude but have you ever been a GC on a job of any size? I'm concerned that you may have an unrealistic view of the trades and the crap they will put up with. Anyone with experience will never agree to that sh**. I'm sure you will get some guys that are hungry. But I doubt you will get quality. The guys that do quality will be working for the GCs that guarantee they will be paid.


And that's just the tip of the iceburg. If you've not been an operating GC, you're in a lot of trouble. I would suggest you work for a real GC for a while to learn the ropes.

I think if you go into business with your current attitude you're going to get a fast and harsh lesson. I wish you luck, you're gonna need it.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

overanalyze said:


> One thing to point out. If I have a sub that has performed poorly for his part of the project and the client withholds money for his part, that sub does not get paid till he fixes the problem to my satisfaction. I know that is not the op topic but still worth noting...just because you think your done, you don't get paid till it's done correctly to specs/prints.


I agree absolutely...You are done when the GC says so. As long as it's in the original scope. If I'm late because of extras I want paid for work completed. But i do agree. Do it right or do it again,.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> Actually, that is exactly what I mean. If an owner was to stiff us, the reality is I would pay everyone good (if even needed) and chase the owner myself for payment. That is the cost of doing business. And my contract with the owner has a provision that late payments are subject to an x interest rate per month. So, they will pay. And we are ahead on draws with the private owner who is financing the job himself. So, really, I've mitigated the risk to your firm. You would stop work if you were late. However, the late payment is actually for work you haven't provided yet....because we are ahead. No one loses.
> 
> If the situation is bank financing, they will pay WHEN everything jives. They have to. If it doesn't and it is my fault, you have right to payment based on our agreed terms.


If that's how it really is then why do you need the clause in your contract at all?


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> And my contract with the owner has a provision that late payments are subject to an x interest rate per month. So, they will pay. .


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> When was the last job you did? what was it?


A jewelry box for my wife. It's walnut and has crotch walnut veneered drawer fronts and doors. It's got a flamed maple inside and the face frame was inlayed with maple as well. Pics? 

The last project I was on was a 13 story office building. It was built to match a pre-existing building (built 6 years prior). It matched very well. The entire curtain wall system spanned 11 stories and had to go through blast (boom) testing to ensure adequate performance. The project utilities were fed from three locations for redundancy. The first floor was all Sopele bookmatched wall panels and a beautiful reception desk. Their is a funny story associated with that reception desk. But for another time.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> If that's how it really is then why do you need the clause in your contract at all?


So you can't lien my property when you don't get paid on day 14. So we have the mentality that we are in this together. We are a team. If you don't share that attitude in general we will not work together. The relationships last longer this way. Sounds like money is most important. I think relationships are...the money will come. And by signing you are committing to one. Hopefully one that see's us both prosper.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> A jewelry box for my wife. It's walnut and has crotch walnut veneered drawer fronts and doors. It's got a flamed maple inside and the face frame was inlayed with maple as well. Pics?
> 
> The last project I was on was a 13 story office building. It was built to match a pre-existing building (built 6 years prior). It matched very well. The entire curtain wall system spanned 11 stories and had to go through blast (boom) testing to ensure adequate performance. The project utilities were fed from three locations for redundancy. The first floor was all Sopele bookmatched wall panels and a beautiful reception desk. Their is a funny story associated with that reception desk. But for another time.


Ya know... I started a whole thread here not long ago about bein nice to FNGs....I regret it alot...and I apologize to those who have had to put up with FNGs like you for way longer than I have been here..Here's your answer...Pay when you get paid..I'm sure you will pay Tree fiddy or the going rate. what a waste of my night..


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)




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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

katoman said:


> This speaks volumns. RTR, I'll be nice here. Go work for a real GC. If you go out as a GC right now, you'll get eaten alive.
> 
> Just trying to help you and a bunch of subs out here. You're not ready.


I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion based on my response.


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

rdr8887 said:


> A jewelry box for my wife. It's walnut and has crotch walnut veneered drawer fronts and doors. It's got a flamed maple inside and the face frame was inlayed with maple as well. Pics?
> 
> The last project I was on was a 13 story office building. It was built to match a pre-existing building (built 6 years prior). It matched very well. The entire curtain wall system spanned 11 stories and had to go through blast (boom) testing to ensure adequate performance. The project utilities were fed from three locations for redundancy. The first floor was all Sopele bookmatched wall panels and a beautiful reception desk. Their is a funny story associated with that reception desk. But for another time.


OP forgot to add....

I was the janitor on that job......:laughing:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> So you can't lien my property when you don't get paid
> QUOTE]
> 
> So now the real reason comes out.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion based on my response.


It's really not that hard for real GCs here to read between the lines.

It has been somewhat entertaining though. Can't wait to read your next topic.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> Ya know... I started a whole thread here not long ago about bein nice to FNGs....I regret it alot...and I apologize to those who have had to put up with FNGs like you for way longer than I have been here..Here's your answer...Pay when you get paid..I'm sure you will pay Tree fiddy or the going rate. what a waste of my night..


Care to explain FNG?


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

This smacks of "Chief Big-Talk Full-of-Wind".


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> rdr8887 said:
> 
> 
> > So you can't lien my property when you don't get paid
> ...


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> Care to explain FNG?


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

I almost spit my coffee out.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> Care to explain FNG?


FNG=Fu**in New Guy
Care to explain why you think it's ok to f*** your subs because you made bad descisions on who to work for?


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

katoman said:


> It's really not that hard for real GCs here to read between the lines.
> 
> It has been somewhat entertaining though. Can't wait to read your next topic.


Indemnification Clauses...lol.

And I can better respect a man that is direct. So I usually give everyone a second try. I don't do much reading between the lines. It's kind of like what they say about assumptions....


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

This guy reminds me of the son of a builder I knew. Full of himself, dilusional, not a clue, but he's the bosses son, so we have to tolerate him.

Ya, right.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> summithomeinc said:
> 
> 
> > Good job editing my post for content. Seems pretty shady... You're not one of those sub par subcontractors someone mentioned a while back are you?
> ...


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> FNG=Fu**in New Guy
> Care to explain why you think it's ok to f*** your subs because you made bad descisions on who to work for?


You really haven't read anything I've said. The point is to make you wait along with me. Please re-read and most especially read what I wrote about the team thing. I get it. You don't like it. We would never work with each other.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

katoman said:


> This guy reminds me of the son of a builder I knew. Full of himself, dilusional, not a clue, but he's the bosses son, so we have to tolerate him.
> 
> Ya, right.


For whatever reason, this has bothered you to the point of being very personal. I know this is the internet and all, but really this was meant to be a health debate. Just keep that kind of stuff to yourself please.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> You really haven't read anything I've said. The point is to make you wait along with me. Please re-read and most especially read what I wrote about the team thing. I get it. You don't like it. We would never work with each other.


Why should I wait along with you. You just don't get it do you. You look after your responsibilities and I'll look after mine, thank you.

Don't dump your poor business practices in my lap. I would never work for you. Ever.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> rdr8887 said:
> 
> 
> > day 14 or 40 doesn't matter. Either way you want to take away the only recourse a sub has...other than stealing your truck and tools and and stuff....so no the editing was perfectly fine...and YOU want to talk proffesionalism? what a joke
> ...


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> You really haven't read anything I've said. The point is to make you wait along with me. Please re-read and most especially read what I wrote about the team thing. I get it. You don't like it. We would never work with each other.


I agree that a sub and GC should be a team.What YOU don't GET is YOU are trying to MAKE a sub wait....MAKE isn't very team like is it?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

rdr8887 said:


> I figured you might say that. I do subcontract out all of the work. I self perform nothing. Could I? Yes. Will I? No. But I like to think of myself as a builder. I actually take that back, I would like to be able to begin producing all of my own custom millwork as well. But that is a few years out at the earliest.


 Nothing wrong with hanging the bags up, lots of good contractors do it early or late in their careers, but when you chit on the men wearing them you lose all respect with me.


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

Please pass the popcorn.....


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> I agree that a sub and GC should be a team.What YOU don't GET is YOU are trying to MAKE a sub wait....MAKE isn't very team like is it?


I'm waiting right there with you. It's not like I get paid and you don't. Doesn't work that way.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

katoman said:


> This guy reminds me of the son of a builder I knew. Full of himself, dilusional, not a clue, but he's the bosses son, so we have to tolerate him.
> 
> Ya, right.


I worked for the son of the boss once...then when the boss wasn't around I educated him on who he could boss and who would throw his A** out a window...got along fine after that...


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> I agree that a sub and GC should be a team.What YOU don't GET is YOU are trying to MAKE a sub wait....MAKE isn't very team like is it?


 It is a team. You are the captain. What you are describing is ill be the golden boy as long as the game is going good, but when its a mess, ill fold up like a cheap suit.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> I'm waiting right there with you. It's not like I get paid and you don't. Doesn't work that way.


Again, you don't get it. I DON'T WANT TO WAIT WITH YOU.


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

katoman said:


> Why should I wait along with you. You just don't get it do you. You look after your responsibilities and I'll look after mine, thank you.
> 
> Don't dump your poor business practices in my lap. I would never work for you. Ever.


Your responsibilities are mine. Who do you think the lawsuit comes to? Me. Everything you do is my responsibility to the owner. You would wait because I have a job you would like to do and could be profitable on.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

rdr8887 said:


> Your responsibilities are mine. Who do you think the lawsuit comes to? Me. Everything you do is my responsibility to the owner. You would wait because I have a job you would like to do and could be profitable on.


:laughing::laughing: I don't think so.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> I'm waiting right there with you. It's not like I get paid and you don't. Doesn't work that way.


YOU wait alone..subs get paid upon completion..or as agreed upon


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

jawtrs said:


> Nothing wrong with hanging the bags up, lots of good contractors do it early or late in their careers, but when you chit on the men wearing them you lose all respect with me.


I hope you wouldn't think that is what I am doing now? Knowing me, you wouldn't ever hear that. I have respect for the work that everyone does. Just like I expect everyone to respect what I do. It's not the easiest job in the world.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

damn I type too slow...gonna just start typin ..."what kato and Jaw just said"


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

svronthmve said:


> Please pass the popcorn.....


I grabbed an apple instead....


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> I hope you wouldn't think that is what I am doing now? Knowing me, you wouldn't ever hear that. I have respect for the work that everyone does. Just like I expect everyone to respect what I do. It's not the easiest job in the world.


what have you offered to respect? that you will leave subs hanging because you didn't get paid?


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## rdr8887 (Jan 28, 2012)

katoman said:


> Again, you don't get it. I DON'T WANT TO WAIT WITH YOU.


No, I get it.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

rdr8887 said:


> I hope you wouldn't think that is what I am doing now? Knowing me, you wouldn't ever hear that. I have respect for the work that everyone does. Just like I expect everyone to respect what I do. It's not the easiest job in the world.


 Double post


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

rdr8887 said:


> I hope you wouldn't think that is what I am doing now? Knowing me, you wouldn't ever hear that. I have respect for the work that everyone does. Just like I expect everyone to respect what I do. It's not the easiest job in the world.


what you need is a partner...a partner will share the riskk with you...a sub will take your truck as payment


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

rdr8887 said:


> I hope you wouldn't think that is what I am doing now? Knowing me, you wouldn't ever hear that. I have respect for the work that everyone does. Just like I expect everyone to respect what I do. It's not the easiest job in the world.


 Not paying men money you owe them in a timely manner is chitting on them. Don't you expect them to complete the work in a timely manner?


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