# what would this be worth to you?



## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

as MUCH as i hate snow removal....we're considering something for next year. our city snow plows do not have the gates on the end to stop from filling driveways up as they go by. many times homeowners don't get home in time to shovel it/blow it out before it turns to an iceberg. we're thinking of leasing 2 large high speed skid steers with snow buckets to follow the city's 2 plow crews and selling the service of NOTHING but taking that hard packed ice/snow ridge out...no actual plowing of the rest of their driveway. we've talked to a few people, friends....and the response has been great. we'd presell the service in september and october...demand full payment at that time so we don't have to chase people down and collect halfway thru the year for the rest of it, or back out at that time. we'd put a small reflective dot/decal on their house, or mailbox....different color each year, so the operators know who is a customer, who is not....we on the average....have 17 pushable snow events....forget the contractor mode for a minute...you, as a homeowner....what would this service be worth to you annually?

thanks in advance.

PS...i know to many of you, it's worth tree fiddy...i already have in mind what we need to sell the service...i'm just curious if i'm being rational in my thoughts on pricing.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

So you are trying to market to people who would shovel their own driveways but not the apron? Just trying to understand.

How do you deal with people who currently do everything themselves, and when you sell them on this specific service, want you to clear the whole driveway?


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## Upchuck (Apr 7, 2009)

Your city has only 2 plow crews. Either it's really big crews or a real small city. I've never seen gates on plows that don't let snow in the driveway. Do you know what they are called or have a pic?

As far as your question I would think that people that don't want to shovel the end of the driveway would be the people that have all ready hired someone to plow entire driveway. Unless you plow in the same area that you did the water line in the posted pics. The homes might be so far out of the way that people would be willing to pay for that service instead of having plow guy come back again. I'm sure you know your part of the country better than I do.:thumbsup:

What were you thinking of charging?
Tree fiddy does seem a little high.:whistling


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## bert0168 (Jan 28, 2008)

So how would you coordinate that service with city/DOT plowing.

What if there are multiple plows per a snow event?

When do you clear and how many times per event?

What about a customer who pays others to plow/blow/shovel and they happen to get their DW cleared after the plows but before you show up?

Personally, I would not pay for it. I wait until the plows are thru and then plow myself out.

Not trying to discourage you from it, just some curious questions I had. This very well may be a service that's in demand in your area.


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## magnet (Apr 20, 2008)

From someone who claims to know everything, why would you even be interested in someones opinion. Let's just give you what you seem to dish out. First know your cost, figure in profit, & there you go, or lets just say tree fiddy.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

CookeCarpentry said:


> So you are trying to market to people who would shovel their own driveways but not the apron? Just trying to understand.
> 
> How do you deal with people who currently do everything themselves, and when you sell them on this specific service, want you to clear the whole driveway?


yes, many people have their own blowers, or shovel them themselves...but that ridge the city plows into the driveway, is full of salt and sand that turns into an iceberg, making it fairly difficult to blow, or to shovel. i don't want the liability of sprinkler heads, landscaping in doing the whole driveway, and i think there locally is a huge market for those just wanting that ridge taken out.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

bert0168 said:


> So how would you coordinate that service with city/DOT plowing. *these 2 machines would be used exclusively behind the city plows...when they go out, we'd go out.*
> 
> What if there are multiple plows per a snow event? *we would specify in our contract with them, that this service would only be provided when the city plows go, if they go out twice a day...which i've never seen before...we would too.*
> 
> ...


 thanks for the response


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

magnet said:


> From someone who claims to know everything, why would you even be interested in someones opinion. Let's just give you what you seem to dish out. First know your cost, figure in profit, & there you go, or lets just say tree fiddy.



for someone with 9 posts...you're right...i would consider you unqualified to warrant reading, or considering any of your suggestions for that matter. thanks for keeping your post within your realm of expertise and experience.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Day - I do think you may have a good marketable idea here.

Personally, the guy that plows my driveway does the apron and clears by the mailbox, etc.

I know the mound of junk that builds up after the town plows, and I think if I did all the work myself, I might consider paying someone to remove just that - considering a 6 inch snow fall could leave upwards of 2 ft of snow by the apron.

I don't like the idea of a one season, up front price. I could see a seasonal "retainage" feel plus a per clearing fee each time. For example, a $250/season fee plus $50.00 per clearing.


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## Dozerman56 (Dec 11, 2009)

Don't have anything to contribute to the asked question but you've reminded me of my younger days in NH before I moved down here to NC in '91. I was the guy that would shovel most of the way out to the street but not the last few feet so the city couldn't keep filling it in after the storm.


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Every plow truck in my area windrows everything to the side so everyone needs to shovel the aprons of their driveway. I could be out all night plowing, dead tired and I will shovel that SOB before it freezes b/c I know what a PITA it is. Would I pay for this service, no. Would an older person pay for this service, yes, but as mentioned b4, they prolly already have a person to plow the driveway, so they can hit the apron too.

As far as a contractor's standpoint...steer clear.

I wouldn't consider this unless your town would be paying you.


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## bert0168 (Jan 28, 2008)

rino1494 said:


> I wouldn't consider this unless your *town would be paying you*.


LOL :lol: I know your not serious. Fat chance of them paying for a service they don't care about getting done now.


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## Security101 (Aug 11, 2008)

I like the idea, but I don't think it's really feasible.

Around here the plows go a good 30 MPH+, how would you keep up with that? (even with a limited amount of customers on any particular route)

Also, I myself am on a major thoroughfare and we average a lot more swipes per fall due to traffic patterns. Would you follow that?

Just throwing it out there for ya :whistling

Jim


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

Security101 said:


> I like the idea, but I don't think it's really feasible.
> 
> Around here the plows go a good 30 MPH+, how would you keep up with that? (even with a limited amount of customers on any particular route)*plows here travel at 10-15 mph...they work a motor grader and dump with one way plow together for each crew.*
> 
> ...


thanks for the response


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

rino1494 said:


> Would an older person pay for this service, yes, but as mentioned b4, they prolly already have a person to plow the driveway, so they can hit the apron too. *jason, i'm targeting the ken and barbie landers that both work, can't afford seasonal driveway plow...but don't want to contend with that snow ridge.*
> 
> 
> I wouldn't consider this unless your town would be paying you.


 *my intent is to presell all of this, and if i don't get the volume i'd need to cover expenses plus make it worth my while....i'll refund their money and scratch the idea*
there are 5000 homes in my town, if i can get 1000 to sign up at $150 a year....it'd be worth my while. 2-12 hr bobcat days per snow event x 2 machines...=816 machine hours (that's the average year now with 17 pushable events....that is approx $183.00 per machine hour...i think i can make that work pretty good.


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## Upchuck (Apr 7, 2009)

> I like the idea, but I don't think it's really feasible.
> 
> Around here the plows go a good 30 MPH+, how would you keep up with that? (even with a limited amount of customers on any particular route)
> 
> ...


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## Security101 (Aug 11, 2008)

Upchuck said:


> > Plowing @ 30MPH :w00t:. Better not hit curb or manhole.
> 
> 
> Heck, around here they roll up small cars! :laughing:
> ...


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Back in the 70's we were hit with a major snow storm. One of the major highways drifted shut. The state had the contractor who my dad worked for at the time, bring out the big boy to open it up. My dad was going down the highway with a D8 plowing drifts. That is something you don't see these days.


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## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

dayexco said:


> gee, this guy knows what he's talkin about....listen to him





dayexco said:


> snow removal sux.





dayexco said:


> i don't care if you're the only snow removal show in town, and make $3k an hour with your grain shovel....snow removal SUX! ever milk cows? snow removal is like owning a dairy herd....you can't leave. you can't schedule a night with family/friends...for yourself, you're married to the sheet.


 ......


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

Cole82 said:


> ......


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

i know, i know...i had that comin to me!! i don't like getting a procto either...sometimes you gotta do...what you gotta do!


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

Maybe 15 or 20 bucks, probably 15. It takes me about 10 minutes to clear with a shovel, or 30 onces its all all hardened. I think the collection would be the chore. You will spend as much time plowing as knocking on doors and getting paid if not less. But at 15 bucks a pop you could probably do like 8 an hour? Not counting collection time. Maybe they leave a payment in some sort of box out front? I live in a more rural area so that would work. Maybe a contract with the city would be better? think a skid would do better then a 4 wheeler?


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

BattleRidge said:


> Maybe 15 or 20 bucks, probably 15. It takes me about 10 minutes to clear with a shovel, or 30 onces its all all hardened. I think the collection would be the chore. You will spend as much time plowing as knocking on doors and getting paid if not less. But at 15 bucks a pop you could probably do like 8 an hour? Not counting collection time. Maybe they leave a payment in some sort of box out front? I live in a more rural area so that would work. Maybe a contract with the city would be better? think a skid would do better then a 4 wheeler?


if you read my prior posts...you can see that i presold this....that i collected for the SEASON up front...if we didn't hit the magic number to make it feasible for us, we'd refund all their money.


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## propertyone (Jan 23, 2009)

Around here, the plows plow the streets, then everybody plows there driveway. After everybody is done they come back around and push the snow back on the streets filling the driveways up again. Will you go back? I also feel the the people who shovel there driveway or snow blow it , do it because they are to cheap to pay somebody else.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

propertyone said:


> Around here, the plows plow the streets, then everybody plows there driveway. After everybody is done they come back around and push the snow back on the streets filling the driveways up again. Will you go back? I also feel the the people who shovel there driveway or snow blow it , do it because they are to cheap to pay somebody else.


go back for what? the city plows plow the street, the snow hits the driveway...we push the snow off to the side....all done! man, i must not be explaining myself very well here.


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## backhoe1 (Mar 30, 2007)

this plan would never work in my town because they wait acouple days to plow, so it is all packed down. when the plows go by, they just smooth out the snow pack so there isn't much to go to the curb.


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## wheeler (Feb 8, 2009)

our skidsteer snow handling ops are constrained to flat empty parking lots, laydown and staging areas, and roads that are our job sites and entirely under our control. they don't run where or when there are people. they are difficult to stop in ice, even with chains, and for this factor alone the machines often do more damage than good.


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## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

Day,

As a homeowner, the short answer is that I would be willing to shell out $150/season to have just the entrance cleared, if I haven't allready paid for complete driveway plowing. On a 2" snow, probably hard to sell. But figuring that for about 3 weeks a winter, entrance clearing is a real PIA, I would think you could find some interest. People need to remember that it isn't always sunny and 30f out when shoveling. It's that -20 windchill and shoveling to get in the drive after work that makes you look for other options . . . . . 

One thought on cycling behind the city . . . time was that when dollars were plentiful, the days when it didn't snow the city trucks would continue to cycle, pushing back the snow to the curb, and then some. That would make our phone ring, big time. What with city coffer$ being somewhat depleted, not so much of an issue now I suspect. Just a heads up . . . 

Hey, put some advertising out there and see what developes. I do think that a pickup with just a front blade would be more efficient. We used to smack the entrance at an angle to blow 'em open after the street plows had rolled them in. Cleared a 5 hour plowing route in about an hour or so if just entrance clearing. Not real pretty, but when the snow gets persistent and heavy, it's all about access, not perfection.

Just my .02 as a retired (tired after 28 years) residential and commercial plowing contractor.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

dayexco said:


> .we on the average....have 17 pushable snow events.......you, as a homeowner....what would this service be worth to you annually?


$15 or $20 a push $250 - $300 / year


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## backhoe1 (Mar 30, 2007)

We've got guys here that will plow the whole drive for $15-20.


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## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

I think you would make more money designing a process that eliminated people's driveways being blocked in the first place. 

Why be the guy who makes a living changing light bulbs when you can design a better light??? 

Seems silly to me that the city can get away with blocking people in in the first place.....isn't that illegal-Oh sorry honey, we'll just have to have the baby at home, the city just plowed our driveway shut:laughing:


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## gregj (Jul 31, 2006)

cexcavation said:


> I think you would make more money designing a process that eliminated people's driveways being blocked in the first place.


I actually plow my drive so it doesn't get blocked now. I live on a rural road so I plow my drive and the road itself at my drive cut and about 8 foot to the left. The road crew comes from the left of course and their blade empties in that 8 foot stretch so no ridge of snow across the drive. Only adds a few minutes to what is a long job anyway and is well worth it. Might have trouble doing that in the city though. 

If I lived in town I'd either do the entire removal myself or hire just one person to do both the drive and the ridge. Can't see splitting it up. I think you should offer a package deal including clearing the drive but that doesn't mean you can't have one crew quickly cleaning up the ridge before it freezes and leave the rest of the drive clearing to another crew.

I wouldn't want to pay a seasonal rate. I'd rather pay by the job. How about you get a seasonal deposit from which you deduct a certain cost per snow event? At the end of the season refund the excess or roll it into the next season. If the deposit goes dry it's time for them to ante up again. That way if it's an unusually heavy snow year you don't lose money.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

i've had a seasonal contract on snow removal at our local target store for gee, 10-12 yrs now? you just have to track/average costs...bid em for the bad years, come out good on tough years, like a bandit on no snow years...i don't want to chase customers down 3/4 thru the season, and hit them up for more money, or refund any....if i'm gambling, they can too


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## waldrop (Jan 3, 2010)

*what about a flagman?*

can you do this without a flagger on the ground ?you can't see good out of sidsteer & people will run up on you .just to get a check from your insurance company!


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

waldrop said:


> can you do this without a flagger on the ground ?you can't see good out of sidsteer & people will run up on you .just to get a check from your insurance company!


 
Trust me.....they get out of the way pretty quickly when they see you're not stopping!:whistling


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## figbuild (Nov 27, 2009)

if i were thinking bout do something like that i would probably get in my truck with two mexicans and some shovels. stop at each driveway and set it up to do walkways too. bobcats will cause damage every know and then. no one is perfect. i've been pushing snow for ten yrs and i still hit a thing or two a year w my equipment.. this way you dont have to pay for insurance which you must have, fuel, maintenance, and so on. just give them coffee, ten bucks in hr, and keep them warm in between driveways. i got bout thirty shoveling the condo plexes with me. they love me when i show up with dunkin donuts.....


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

figbuild said:


> if i were thinking bout do something like that i would probably get in my truck with two mexicans and some shovels. stop at each driveway and set it up to do walkways too. bobcats will cause damage every know and then. no one is perfect. i've been pushing snow for ten yrs and i still hit a thing or two a year w my equipment.. this way you dont have to pay for insurance which you must have, fuel, maintenance, and so on. just give them coffee, ten bucks in hr, and keep them warm in between driveways. i got bout thirty shoveling the condo plexes with me. they love me when i show up with dunkin donuts.....


in order for this to cash out for me, i need a minimum of 1000 driveways...two mexicans with shovels in a pickup ain't gonna work...no matter how many doughnuts you put in them. this will be pure an simple.....volume and production driven. i don't WANT to do the whole driveway....just the ridge the city crews leave.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

waldrop said:


> can you do this without a flagger on the ground ?you can't see good out of sidsteer & people will run up on you .just to get a check from your insurance company!


2 city plow crews, 2 skid steers trying to keep up with them...that's a min. of 250 driveways per skid steer per day. flagman would have to be a marathon runner.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

you know....i've given this a lot of thought, and it's something i'm definitely going to pursue...and i've found out another thing with this thread....many people do NOT read the original post before they start responding...which is okay i guess...but without ALL the details of the original post....make many of the followups not worth reading.....sorry if i sound like an ornery old fart....that's just the way it is..hope some mod for my sake closes this damn thing


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## backhoe1 (Mar 30, 2007)

Gene-
It has nothing to do with being old! As you know, I'm only half your age and I've been very annoyed at the responses that have nothing to do with the original post.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

dayexco said:


> go back for what? the city plows plow the street, the snow hits the driveway...we push the snow off to the side....all done! man, *i must not be explaining myself very well here.*


I think you explained yourself well enough. Trouble is that most of us that have to deal with snow don't have the same municipal crews to deal with, yours seem to be fairly laid back. I plowed my drive yesterday and the plows went by at least twice while I was plowing and again for good measure after they saw I was done. :>) 

Seems like a doable idea that could work. I'm not sure it would in my area but I hope you give it a shot and report your results.

Good Luck
Dave


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Dayexco - Heres my opinion.

It will be very hard for you to keep up with the city plow trucks no matter what. It will take you longer to push the snow to the side of each driveway or wherever you decide to put it than a truck just driving by. I plow a large apartment complex using a skidster. People are dumb and do not realize how much you can not see or that you can not hear anything while you are in one so you have to pay extra attention to that.

Maybe you should sell the people on not that you follow the skidsters directly behind but you come after they have already plowed that area of your street. The hours are horrible and you never know when you will have to work. I put in 22 hours on X-Mas Eve.

In my city, this idea would never work but where you are there could be a good market for it. I know I hate the very end of the driveway especially since I live on a cul-de-sac. I think it will be very hard to convice people to buy your service when doing such a small area. I know its the worst part but if theyve already done their whole drive way, is the extra few feet really worth 20 dollars a pop or whatever you charge. Around here, most contractors in plow trucks do driveways for 20-25 a pop depending on the size.


As a homeowner, I wouldn't pay to have a guy come move a little bit of snow when Ive already done the whole driveway. However, I do think there are certain types who will.

Try it out and let us know how it works.


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