# New smaller cement bags



## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Due to back injuries, insurance problems the Canadian equivalent of OSHA, Portland cement from LaFarge in Canada will be also available in 44# bags (20 kg). I assume it will spread to other suppliers and maybe to the U.S. since many masonry contractors may like it because it is close to a half bag and can minimize waste.

I assume it will be more expensive per pound because of the bagging cost and the costs of bags (individual bags are not cheap), and it should have little effect on the main LaFarge bulk market that is most of their volume.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

They tried 1/2 CuFt bags (47#) here about 10 years ago, it did not fly. They also tried metric CMU about the same time and that did not fly either.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I think its great.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Let's say you pay 9 bucks for a bag of portland. for the baby bags, you will be paying closer to 12 bucks, plus have 1/3 more trash.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Well until new construction picks up I don't need full bags unfortunately. Im fixing quite a few chimney tops every month right now, so full bags are a nuisance.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

How about they try to make a bag that doesn't rip and spill everywhere first. :laughing:


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Pros and cons with the new smaller size bags for sure. 

Usually when I end up with a partial bag I fold the sides in and roll it down. Then I duct tape the seam..this has served me well for a long time. Of course just like with unopened bags, were you store it effects the contents.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Inner10 -

The new bag size is based on what the market appears to need. It has noting to do with the metric system (although the Canadians have progressed futher than the U.S. The change/option is based on the bag weight and it is an option. - My 8 year old grandson would immediately convert the 44# to 20 kg, since he is lazy and knows a mortar joint is 1 cm if the mason is good. Younger people think differently.

Do you want to pay more for a better bag you just rip it open any way you want to? Good lined bags cost more and smaller bags are more costly to fill and handle - especially in moisture resistant bags. Nothing is for free, especially you work based on costs.

I had friend that worked for major cement bagging operation that ran 24/7 and they would also process unlined bags for kitty liter because they were easier and faster to bag and seal. That is the reason I said that it would be little more expensive than the larger bags of cement and the release I read said it was an "also" and up to customer.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Just a very small aside. Metric measuremnets are almost always given in either metres (m) or millimetres (mm) A metric mortar joint is 10mm, the same as 1cm but it's always referred to in mm.

Also, i've always been surprised at the weight of bags of Portalnd. A bag of masonry cement weighs in at 30kg/66lbs which I thought was the limit of what the unions said that one person could lift. In theory a union labourer is not supposed to move a bag of portland alone.


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

from a work injury standpoint this is a good thing. i remember seeing a story about a farm where work injuries decreased dramatically after reducing the size of the containers that contained the fruits/vegetables even by a relatively small amount. production increased overall because of fewer injuries despite the fact that they had to move more containers.
we have 47# bags around here and, on the rare occasion that i have to buy portland, i will buy those.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

dom-mas -

The weight requirement is why LaFarge Canada went to the smaller bags instead of the 94#(42.7 kg) bags.

My grandson thinks in both metric and usually talks in term of a "soft conversion" for amateurs and helps by using cm although he thinks in mm and can instantly convert to cm that most Americans seem to be easier to handle. He was interested in the differences in the systems since I traveled extensively in many foreign countries were everything was a 200mmx200mmx400mm modular block ( 7-5/8"x7-5/8"x15-/5/8" block in the U.S.) and mortar joints were 10 mm (not 3/8"), so layout was easy and there was no conversion of fractions that is also another source for differences/errors.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*bags*

Most guys in our trade realize a bag of portland is 1cubic ft.The weight comes to 94.7 lbs. Perhaps less known a standard bag of hydrated lime weighs in at 50 lbs.however,the cubic measure is 1.25 cubic ft.(my producer WESTERN LIME acknowledges this) Having said this,why not have the bag weigh in at 47.35 lbs. (half cu.ft.) ? The reality of all this is,if standard bags are used,what is thought as a 1:1:6 mix is really a1:1.25:6 mix. I believe somebody was thinking to reduce bag weight,but they need to do a little more thinking.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Layout with metric blocks is really easy. The block layer I worked for would show up at a job, get out the tape and calculator and in about 5 mins would give me 5 or 10 different cuts and how many of each we would need.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

weird. A bag of lime here is 50lbs (actually 22.5 kgs but awful close) and a bag of portland is 88lbs (40kg) both contain the same volume when I use a pail to batch and if you place the bags beside each other.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

fjn said:


> Most guys in our trade realize a bag of portland is 1cubic ft.The weight comes to 94.7 lbs. Perhaps less known a standard bag of hydrated lime weighs in at 50 lbs.however,the cubic measure is 1.25 cubic ft.(my producer WESTERN LIME acknowledges this) Having said this,why not have the bag weigh in at 47.35 lbs. (half cu.ft.) ? The reality of all this is,if standard bags are used,what is thought as a 1:1:6 mix is really a1:1.25:6 mix. I believe somebody was thinking to reduce bag weight,but they need to do a little more thinking.


Funny you deal with Western as well, I've been an advocate for their product for years. I actually did the foundation for an addition of the owner's house years ago........:thumbsup:


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

no pros,just cons. If you dont want to lift heavy stuff dont be in construction.

Work smart not hard does not apply here.

I go through 100-120 bags a week.(for stucco and some masonry).

GU used to be 12.74 after taxes around here for 88 lbs bag.

Now 7.98 for 40 lbs bag.

Feel the difference.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> GU used to be 12.74 after taxes around here for 88 lbs bag.
> 
> Now 7.98 for 40 lbs bag.
> 
> Feel the difference.


Can you not buy both weights? Is there no other supplier? What about Essrock/Italcementi


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Can you not buy both weights? Is there no other supplier? What about Essrock/Italcementi


Dont have any of that around here...only Lafarge and only 20 kilo bags now...still have some 40 kilo ones in stock but they said its old stock so its hard to find them now.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Sound like the italians price just went up $0.50/sqft


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Sound like the italians price just went up $0.50/sqft


yea thats about right.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

TheItalian204 said:


> If you dont want to lift heavy stuff dont be in construction.


I know what you're saying,but...Just wait till you get older.

I was watching a guy struggle while loading 3-88 pounders into the back of his truck the other day. Not for me. I'll take the smaller ones.

Like moving drywall. I used to pick up two at a time.:whistling


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## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

whats next? 20 lb buckets of spackle?


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Whats with the 88 lb bags? Here in CT a bag of Portland weighs 94 lbs. Nice way to start the day when you need to toss 4 or 5 bags on your truck and they're the last ones on the pallet.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

I think the interior plaster guys are still humping 100 lb bags. That's a manly man bag.


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## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

Same here in jersey
94 lb bags of portland


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

CJKarl said:


> Whats with the 88 lb bags? Here in CT a bag of Portland weighs 94 lbs. Nice way to start the day when you need to toss 4 or 5 bags on your truck and they're the last ones on the pallet.


Yeah whats this 88, isnt that a race car number :laughing:


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## masonryexpert (May 26, 2012)

the smaller bags might come handy with smaller projects, but for commercial projects I feel like it would slow my guys down.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

88lbs = 40kg, 

Not that I'm a union man but what do the various unions in the US say a max weight for a single person to lift is?


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

In St. Louis the maximum weight at one time for block was 36# or it required two men. But obviously, it backfired and more work went non-union. Not all unions are that backward, but if OSHA and insurance companies get involved there could be pressures on manufacturers because it becomes a financial issue.

In our area, residential masons would lay 12x8x16 (49#), 14x8x16 block and 16x8x16 block, but some contractors wanted medium weight (or even lightweight) block since the added block price did not offset the reduced labor costs.

Every local is different. I knew great union bricklayers on commercial jobs that took a withdrawal for the summer and worked piecework (7 days a week) on other residential and some commercial block jobs. The local union knew about it and expected it, but did not object because it opened the door from apprentices to get more experience. In the fall, the turned in the withdrawal card and went back to work in heated shelters 8 hours/day at a good rate on commercial work. - In many places, this would not happen because of rigid local union politics.

A good laborer can easily carry at least 2 or 3 of the smaller bags.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

concretemasonry said:


> Every local is different. I knew great union bricklayers on commercial jobs that took a withdrawal for the summer and worked piecework (7 days a week) on other residential and some commercial block jobs. The local union knew about it and expected it, but did not object because it opened the door from apprentices to get more experience. In the fall, the turned in the withdrawal card and went back to work in heated shelters 8 hours/day at a good rate on commercial work. - In many places, this would not happen because of rigid local union politics.
> 
> .


Extremely common here. 1 guy i worked for was a foreman in the 2nd largest masonry company in the city, but only 5 months of the year. May-Dec he worked his own jobs. He would also get his union cronies to show up at 3:30-4:00 and blast in 1000 bricks in a couple hours. My entire afternoon was usually in getting everything prepped for when they showed up, then it was run with mud non stop and they'd use it as fast as I could mix it and transport it.

In the winters here though the bricklayers only get 35hrs a week in the winter, the labes get 45 or more and actually bring in as much money or more than the installers


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

We had some drivers of block trucks that knew all the contractors well and would work for our contractor/customers on week-ends. They ofte knew how to find the jobs and some eveb took full loads at night to their homes near the jobs and deliver from home early the next morning when they were not "moonlighting". The Teamsters Union knew what they were doing, but the drivers were high on the seniority list. It all depends whether you fight with unions or or work for a mutual advantage for both.


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## CanCritter (Feb 9, 2010)

l like the smaller bags at my age but cost is prohibitive :O(


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

concretemasonry said:


> We had some drivers of block trucks that knew all the contractors well and would work for our contractor/customers on week-ends. They ofte knew how to find the jobs and some eveb took full loads at night to their homes near the jobs and deliver from home early the next morning when they were not "moonlighting". The Teamsters Union knew what they were doing, but the drivers were high on the seniority list. It all depends whether you fight with unions or or work for a mutual advantage for both.


yea best for scumbags to work together:thumbsup:

why are unions needed again?


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

fck unions.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> why are unions needed again?


Unions are needed so that the working man can get a decent wage and have enough money to go on holiday and not work 12 hrs a day 6 days a week just to survive.

Oh wait it's not the 1920's anymore. No...unions have no use


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

concretemasonry said:


> Inner10 -
> 
> The new bag size is based on what the market appears to need. It has noting to do with the metric system (although the Canadians have progressed futher than the U.S. The change/option is based on the bag weight and it is an option. - My 8 year old grandson would immediately convert the 44# to 20 kg, since he is lazy and knows a mortar joint is 1 cm if the mason is good. Younger people think differently.
> 
> ...


..yeah see I was trying to be a smartass not really trying to make a valid argument...:whistling


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