# footer



## masonking02 (May 13, 2007)

on a residential footer for a small 6 course flower bed how deep would you go down for the footer ?


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

First doll houses now this...

Seriously, whats the depth required to get below the frost line in your area? I take it no permits are required - If they are I am sure the BI would be glad to tell you


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## masonking02 (May 13, 2007)

SLSTech said:


> First doll houses now this...
> 
> Seriously, whats the depth required to get below the frost line in your area? I take it no permits are required - If they are I am sure the BI would be glad to tell you


yea seriously,. frost level is 6' but for such a small project i don't think il need to go so deep !!!! just trying to trade thoughts if you don't mind


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Go down 16'' and call it a day, i know everyone likes to promote the FROSTLINE:no:, but 36'' down for a flower bed--F-that. You may get a little movement, but its a flower bed. G


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## masonking02 (May 13, 2007)

genecarp said:


> Go down 16'' and call it a day, i know everyone likes to promote the FROSTLINE:no:, but 36'' down for a flower bed--F-that. You may get a little movement, but its a flower bed. G


those were my thoughts too thanks:thumbsup:


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

6' - no flippin way

Well Gene's the man especially when dealing with concrete - 16" it is (funny that's what we always used in AZ, & I use here in AL)


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## masonking02 (May 13, 2007)

SLSTech said:


> 6' - no flippin way
> 
> Well Gene's the man especially when dealing with concrete - 16" it is (funny that's what we always used in AZ, & I use here in AL)


we get some cold winters here in ohio


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

masonking -

I suggest you double check the frost depth for Cleveland. Most charts show it at about 30" and not 6'.

Even in northern Minnesota the depth is only 60". - This about the deepest in the country.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

The fact that your asking suggests you not much of a mason. 

Sorry, but maybe you recall a little song you sang as a child about the wise man and his house on the rock. :whistling


Not trying to be a jerk, but why would you put your name on a flower bed that will surely fail sooner than later?

Dick is correct about the frost line also.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

You don't need no footing


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## Crock (Mar 8, 2009)

What kind of flowers are ya planting?


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## masonking02 (May 13, 2007)

dakzaag said:


> The fact that your asking suggests you not much of a mason.
> 
> Sorry, but maybe you recall a little song you sang as a child about the wise man and his house on the rock. :whistling
> 
> ...


actually imma very good bricklayer and have been one for 15 years .. the flower bed will be at my home ......


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## masonking02 (May 13, 2007)

concretemasonry said:


> masonking -
> 
> I suggest you double check the frost depth for Cleveland. Most charts show it at about 30" and not 6'.
> 
> Even in northern Minnesota the depth is only 60". - This about the deepest in the country.


yes ur right 3' is the magic number my mistake


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## masonking02 (May 13, 2007)

Crock said:


> What kind of flowers are ya planting?


small lilies, perennials , and hostas nothing to much


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## Crock (Mar 8, 2009)

Nice. Doing any kind of water feature in it?


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## Michael Olding (Aug 5, 2008)

When I was a young tradesman and bought my first house (new one) some 30 years ago I put in a planter along the front wall of my home. (typical for then) 

I went down the required 30" to frost line, put steel in the footings and did everything according to 'code' or better. My neighbors liked what he saw and decided to do the same thing at his home.

Well he found a cheaper mason then I, as he was told that he could lay the wall on a 6" footer at grade.

I explained to my neighbor that building a wall like that would likely heave during the freeze thaw cycle, (particularly in our area) would crack and probably eventually fail. He just looked at me like I was a little crazy and hired the 'other guy'. (I guess he never heard of such things before)

Funny thing is... his planter never did move and mine, after all the digging, all the re-enforcement and attention to detail... settled by the front porch! It was embarrassing and luckily this guy finally moved as I got tired of him ribbing me about how foolish I was to go so deep.

You see our homes were built on bedrock so truly, there is no need for footings though the building dept. would still require them. My planter just happen to catch the over dig of the original excavation and his planter wall didn't. 

Which begs a question for you masons up north... if someone chose to build a home on a mountain side on a huge slab of Montana rock... would you have to blast out the rock and pour footings or could you use an engineered anchoring system drilled into the rock and use the mountain as your footing?


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

SRW's will work with about 6" of compacted gravel. 

I would try without footings on my own house, but not if I am taking money for it.

Too bad about the neighbor and his good fortune, sounds like something that would happen to me.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

dakzaag -


the use of concrete footings is absolutly forbidden if you expect to get any code approval.

Around here the SRWs are used commonly by municipalities for grade and alignment changes. There are public design standards and plates that are used by the municipalities, counties and the state for their own work and to distribute to the owners looking for advice. This is for walls retaining up to 4'. Obviously, no mortar is permitted.

For over 4', the wall must be engineered, but the walls are still constructed without concrete footings. We have a few 25' high walls around here and i have seen 40' high walls over a mile long along a European freeway built without concrete footings.

Rigid concrete footings are not compatible with "flexible" wall systems that are designed to allow minor movements and frost heaves.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Dick

Sorry about the poorly worded response. What I meant to say was the planter could be constructed out of SRW's without the need for a concrete footer. 

If I was adding a planter to my house I might consider trying to build the masonry wall with a shallow footer (say 16") just to see how it holds up over time.

But if I was working with a paying customer, I would not try the shallow footer idea for a masonry wall. 

I think the OP was dealing with a customer.


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## CanCritter (Feb 9, 2010)

for alllll the buggered up planters lve seen over the years.........personaly l'd put a footing ect and tie into foundation with rebar and industrial adhiesive and build it right the first time


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