# Are my guys slow or am I not charging enough? Why can't I find work?! Issues within my business.



## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

Hello!

So I recently made a switch from a remodeling general contractor to a flooring installation business. The main reason I did this was to be able to remove myself from the tools easier and really niche down to focus on growing the business and being an investor more than a contractor. With this new switch, I had a lot to learn, and to be honest, I'm not much of a flooring installer myself so the first thing on my list was to hire two employees with experience. I want to mention I am based in Ontario Canada FYI. I was able to grab up two employees for $28-30.00 an hour with 4+ years of floor installation experience. Both of these guys are amazing! They know what they're doing, follow the standards I've set within the business, and best of all have the growth and goals of my business in their best interest!

Now here is my problem.
Note: We've only done really 4 jobs since we started working together. Two I don't count as they are kind of all over the place when it comes to the scope of work. I won't go too much into depth but one was my father's house so I didn't make any profit as I wanted to just keep them busy. The other is a full home reno which we are doing the floors in (and I'm not getting them to do anything else to keep the momentum going).

In the two jobs I am counting we aren't doing so great in the profit margins. Now I spend about $5500 /m in marketing right now just to try and pull some leads in to keep these two busy. I will get more into this later in this post. 

-The first job they ever did together and first flooring job as a company was a 436sqft rip out laminate/carpet and installing glue/nail engineered hardwood with baseboards(122LF) also. In terms of subs, we had my painter come on-site to do the baseboards, which was 170 total LF (Because the homeowner had some others he wanted to be painted too) Now for one of the mistakes I made, One of my marketing services is promoting a "17% discount" and originally I thought I could actually provide a discount but after my results, I realized I can't. On this one, I did apply a true 17% discount though. (-$25 credit is something I offer to my clients if they leave an honest review on our 3 review platforms as a way to say thank you) Now another mistake I made with this pricing is not accounting for the furniture that had to be moved. 3 China cabinets, a 50y/o light (big), stove, fridge, kitchen table with 4 chairs, and a medium-sized tv stand thing.
--Breakdown of invoice---









Now when I did my job costing for this job this is what I got. 

Contracted AmountDirect MaterialTrimLaborSubGrossProfit MarginLabor MarginTrim Margin$3,160.98$432.56$178.27$1,944.04$576.30$29.810.94%61.50%5.64%


The hours worked are as followed: (6% Labour Burden added on after this)

$MTWTHFTotal HoursTotal $$28.008889.533.5$938.00$28.0086.589.532$896.00

-The second job (4th job we've done). This one was an installation of 550sqft of vinyl click flooring on top of the existing tile and hardwood floors. We also installed new baseboards(230LF) around the home. Now some things applied for this job as I mentioned in the first one but the mistakes I made on estimating were the following, Minor furniture had to be moved (Couch, Fridge, Stove, Table with 2 chairs and a bench, and a dryer/washer) I also messed up as one of my workers told the homeowner we will caulk the baseboards with dap when I already told the homeowner before that we do not do that but our painter does (which he decided not to include on this job). I didn't want to go back on our word so I included it in for free as it's my fault for not informing my workers about this before.
--Breakdown of invoice---








Now when I did my job costing for this job this is what I got.

Contracted AmountDirect MaterialTrimLaborSubGrossProfit MarginLabor MarginTrim Margin$4,434.90$1,934.72$100.00$1,779.68$620.5013.99%40.13%2.25%


The hours worked are as followed: (6% Labour Burden added on after this)

$MTWTHFTotal HoursTotal $$30.007.177.6714.84$445.20$28.007.57.515$420.00$30.008.675.514.17$425.10$28.008.385.513.88$388.64

One guy got a $2 pay raise as we discussed in the interview!


Obviously, there is something wrong with this, The profit margin is not good at all! Now I'm stuck not knowing if this is because I priced it poorly or maybe my guys aren't working quick enough. With that being said I did do some data collection within my area and grabbed some numbers from other flooring installer contractors. Now take this data with a grain of salt because I don't know how much they pay the workers and if they're subs or full-time, etc.
Data comes from 12 (13 but didn't count one) Companies:


NAIL HARDWOODGLUE/NAIL HARDWOODVINYL / LAMINATEHOW MANY PEOPLESQFT $$DAYS - 1000SQSQFT $$DAYS - 1000SQSQFT $$DAYS - 1000SQON JOBSITE$2.952$3.803$2.652N/A$2.251$2.751.5$2.0012+$2.501$3.501-2$2.5011$2.001-2$3.001-2$1.7513-4$2.292$3.992$2.2921$2.25N/A$3.50N/A$2.00N/AN/A$2.001-2$2.751-2$1.801-24$2.003$2.503$1.5021$2.002$2.803$2.001.52$2.501$3.502$2.7526$2.503$2.753.5$1.752.53$2.752.5$4.003$2.2522-3$2.331.9$3.242$2.101.72-3AVERAGE

Now with this data, I almost feel as if it can't be my pricing because I already have a bad closing rate when it comes to my estimates, I've worked on my sales process so much so I can build value to sell my jobs at a higher price than competing companies. I also have negotiated my price to meet a lower profit margin to accommodate my clients sometimes if it means I get to close the job and I can keep my guys busy.

The other problem I'm having is I don't have any confidence in my marketing. I pay about $5500 in marketing a month and I feel like I get about 2-5 leads a week but most of the people say that they can't afford it or my prices are too high. Here is a breakdown of what I pay for marketing

Facebook/IG marketing agency - $3956.91 (Includes ad spend)
Smart Reno - $200 (I haven't fully set this one up yet but it's around $120-$200 a month I think
Home Stars - $395.61 (I believe my monthly went down on this one since I switched from remodeling to flooring)
Website - $20
Home Depot Pro Program - (haven't set this one up 100% yet)
Bark - $100-150 (Pay per lead program so price changes depending on leads)
RenoQuotes - $50-150 (Pay per lead program so price changes depending on leads)
Google Ad - $600 maximum (This is my first month using it and I'm only at $20 due to low clicks right now)

Now I'm not sure if the lead flow isn't good because covid numbers are rising lately or maybe the holidays and people are spending money elsewhere. I called HomeStars to ask why my leads aren't coming in at all and they said the holidays are probably why as it happens most years.

Anyways if anyone has anything they can offer to help me get over this stressful time I'm stuck in that would be fantastic. I am open to taking any advice as I know people have probably been in my situation or know how to avoid getting in this situation.

Thanks!
Ian


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

Lots of words.

Direct pricing questions are not allowed, but it looks like yours are not direct questions about how much you should charge, but if you are in the same ballpark as other flooring contractors.


I am not fast or expert at installing LVP, but I charge more than you. I refuse to work for dirt, and I don’t care if I get those jobs or not.



It seems that flooring installation is not hyper profitable.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

Mordekyle said:


> Lots of words.
> 
> Direct pricing questions are not allowed, but it looks like yours are not direct questions about how much you should charge, but if you are in the same ballpark as other flooring contractors.
> 
> ...


Yes, there is a lot of words, I try to make my posts as detailed as I can so that there aren't any grey areas and un-needed back and forth. I'm not asking about pricing directly you're right but thanks for the heads up as I didn't know that. It's good to know I'm not lowballing but if I don't get the jobs then I can't keep my guys busy, I wish I didn't have to care but I gotta build the business!


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Don't know why you went into flooring especially since you lack the experience makes no sense. How do you even figure your bids. I lose a lot of flooring only bids I can't compete with in and out crews. I can get the flooring job at my price if it's part of a larger remodeling job.

Had one 4000 sq. ft. hardwood was underbid by half, several months later customer asked me to look at other work. While I'm there she asks if I can fix her subfloors where the hardwood was laid. No rip it out they were shooting blanks and there was colored putty everywhere.

I've never spent a dime on advertising, It's for you to figure out if you're under bidding or if your guys are slow but how do you figure that out with lack of experience. Nothing about your plan makes any sense to me.


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## Half-fast Eddie (Aug 21, 2020)

_“In the two jobs I am counting we aren't doing so great in the profit margins. Now I spend about $5500 /m in marketing right now just to try and pull some leads”_

$5500 a month for marketing? Even in Canadian money that is a huge number for a company your size.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

I don't see how you can generate enough revenue off of two men to support yourself and a $5k a month advertising budget. My advice for the short term would be to put on your tools.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

avenge said:


> Don't know why you went into flooring especially since you lack the experience makes no sense. How do you even figure your bids. I lose a lot of flooring only bids I can't compete with in and out crews. I can get the flooring job at my price if it's part of a larger remodeling job.
> 
> Had one 4000 sq. ft. hardwood was underbid by half, several months later customer asked me to look at other work. While I'm there she asks if I can fix her subfloors where the hardwood was laid. No rip it out they were shooting blanks and there was colored putty everywhere.
> 
> I've never spent a dime on advertising, It's for you to figure out if you're under bidding or if your guys are slow but how do you figure that out with lack of experience. Nothing about your plan makes any sense to me.


I do have experience as I've done it before but not for years and years, yes it's minimal but I am a learner, and when I need to figure something out I use resources. The reason I started a flooring business over anything else is that it's a trade that most homeowners hire (aka meaning higher profit margins than sub-contractor work). It has up-chargeable products, high labor pools, and is easy to understand.

Not all business owners need to be skilled in the trade to run a business. There are contractors and then there are business owners/investors. I bet most successful painting business owners don't even know how to paint.. Luckily I am a bit of both, I do have skills in lots of trades but I'm perfecting my business owning and investing in flooring.

I knew the industry-standard price for flooring installation from when I hired subcontractors when I did renovations, So going into it I kind of knew a good place to start my pricing. Only with time and learning will I be able to perfect it and then be at that level some people clearly lack the motivation to get to... I am here today to see if anyone has insight from their business to help me get there (aka resources) It's okay if my plan doesn't make sense to you, maybe there will be a lot who don't understand, Or maybe it's just not seeing the bigger picture and not having the investor mindset.

Side note, not spending a dime on advertising isn't really impressive from what I've been told and seen. You should always be able to spend money to make money, that's how you can grow a business bigger, better, and faster. There isn't anything wrong with you not doing that, some people prefer to stay small and that's understandable.

Thanks for the reply.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

Half-fast Eddie said:


> _“In the two jobs I am counting we aren't doing so great in the profit margins. Now I spend about $5500 /m in marketing right now just to try and pull some leads”_
> 
> $5500 a month for marketing? Even in Canadian money that is a huge number for a company your size.


I know, I have realized that I think I'm going to cut it back. Realistically it's mainly coming from the FB/IG marketing. To be fair a lot of leads come from that but I feel as if I'm attracting the wrong customers with that "17% Discount". I'm still wondering if all of it will pick up in the new year or not. Time will tell but I want to make sure I get there without going bankrupt! Hah

Thanks,
Ian


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

Pounder said:


> I don't see how you can generate enough revenue off of two men to support yourself and a $5k a month advertising budget. My advice for the short term would be to put on your tools.


One plan I was thinking of is inputting myself on the site for the next month - two months, While I'm there I'll act as a "Helper" to see if maybe hiring in a helper for the future will free up the time my 30$/h employees spend doing helper level work. Almost use it as a free experiment without making a huge financial move. The only thing I'm having an issue with is I already spend my days doing so much office work. (Estimates, Emails, Marketing, Etc)

Thanks for the reply!
Ianvgf


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## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

I have to agrees that’s a ton on advertising. Are you just working directly to the customers of through a flooring store?


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## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

Ianthebesta said:


> I do have experience as I've done it before but not for years and years, yes it's minimal but I am a learner, and when I need to figure something out I use resources. The reason I started a flooring business over anything else is that it's a trade that most homeowners hire (aka meaning higher profit margins than sub-contractor work). It has up-chargeable products, high labor pools, and is easy to understand.
> 
> Not all business owners need to be skilled in the trade to run a business. There are contractors and then there are business owners/investors. I bet most successful painting business owners don't even know how to paint.. Luckily I am a bit of both, I do have skills in lots of trades but I'm perfecting my business owning and investing in flooring.
> 
> ...


Spending money to make money and throwing money at advertising is different.

Buying a new tool to speed things up is spending money to make money


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

5,500 a month? That's more than many spend in an entire career. That's insane for a salesman and a two man crew. I spent 45 bucks on a box of cards once. That's it. I may need to spend another 45 bucks next month or so. Rarely need them.

Those prices seem insanely low to me. You would have to do that entire first job in like two days to even come out ahead.

How are two guys going to make enough for you to live on?

They need to bring in 2,000 a week each just to cover themselves. Then they need to bring in an extra 1,500 a week each to make you any money. 

That's labor only. 

So actually, they need to do that job in one day, at 2, it is getting tight.

You need to bag up and work in the field. 2 employees are going to have a hard time turning enough for you to get ahead if you aren't helping.

Are you running insurance on them and the business?

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## JoeStanton (Sep 24, 2008)

66k a year in advertising for 2 guys? That's completely insane and you need to rethink this whole thing. Your number seem very low and you need to bag up. Two new hires on their own off the bat is a bad idea. Have you called any local flooring co's to see what they get for installs?

I make damn good money on flooring but almost always as part of a reno. My hardwood guys is about a year out and he runs though a 5k sq ft house in about a week. All the flooring suppliers here are begging for subs, not sure what they pay.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Ianthebesta said:


> One plan I was thinking of is inputting myself on the site for the next month - two months, While I'm there I'll act as a "Helper" to see if maybe hiring in a helper for the future will free up the time my 30$/h employees spend doing helper level work. Almost use it as a free experiment without making a huge financial move. The only thing I'm having an issue with is I already spend my days doing so much office work. (Estimates, Emails, Marketing, Etc)
> 
> Thanks for the reply!
> Ianvgf


How could "office work" eat up that much time for 2 employees? Something is way out of whack with your whole business plan.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Targeted advertising up to 3% of revenue could be OK. From your post, you're way above that.

You have to be in the field to be able to see what's behind your productivity numbers. 

The last click down I did was ~500 sq ft solo and took a day once floor prep was done. If you are using an inferior product or just get a bad batch, it can take a lot longer.

2 experienced guys don't necessarily make a team.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Unless you're a high volume low margin business, marketing yourself as cheap (17% off) is a hugely bad idea.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

If you put that 5500 into Google ads only your phone would ring off the hook.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

JoeStanton said:


> 66k a year in advertising for 2 guys? That's completely insane and you need to rethink this whole thing. Your number seem very low and you need to bag up.


I spend $13,000.00 a month (about 16% of my gross sales) in advertising to keep two guys and a trainee busy full time. All are paid about 10% more than market rates. Yesterday was the last day they'll work until January 3rd, they're paid through then, and they got a cash bonus.

I helped out for half a day this month and learned that my tool days are over at 66. I've never made more money in my life than in 2021.

You can do this when you have no competition and you know how to run a business.

Speaking of how to run a business, Alan Mulally 
left Boeing to turn Ford around. I promise you he's never riveted a wing or put a wheel on a car. The idea that you need some sort of construction experience to run a construction business is nonsense. Businessmen run businesses, no matter the business.


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## Thom Paine (Nov 21, 2021)

wow!
There's so much wrong in what/how you're doing; I wonder if you're gathering info for a book or thesis on 
how start-ups fail.

Rethink your plans. You have much to learn about starting and operating a business.

Good Luck to ya'.


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## JoeStanton (Sep 24, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> I spend $13,000.00 a month (about 16% of my gross sales) in advertising to keep two guys and a trainee busy full time. All are paid about 10% more than market rates. Yesterday was the last day they'll work until January 3rd, they're paid through then, and they got a cash bonus.
> 
> I helped out for half a day this month and learned that my tool days are over at 66. I've never made more money in my life than in 2021.
> 
> ...


Not what I said at all. You think Alan Mulally just hired people and threw them in the field with no super. If it was that easy everyone would just grab some employees and kick back making cash.

Your advertising budget makes sense for what you do. I've repaired 1 sink in the 15 years I've been in business and my granite guy has only done 1 retro fit. Nice niche and business but far different than hardwood flooring.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Ianthebesta said:


> I do have experience as I've done it before but not for years and years, yes it's minimal but I am a learner, and when I need to figure something out I use resources. The reason I started a flooring business over anything else is that it's a trade that most homeowners hire (aka meaning higher profit margins than sub-contractor work). It has up-chargeable products, high labor pools, and is easy to understand.
> 
> Not all business owners need to be skilled in the trade to run a business. There are contractors and then there are business owners/investors. I bet most successful painting business owners don't even know how to paint.. Luckily I am a bit of both, I do have skills in lots of trades but I'm perfecting my business owning and investing in flooring.
> 
> ...


None of your plan makes sense if you knew what you were doing you wouldn't ask if you're guys are slow and if you're not charging enough. There are plenty that have no idea what they are doing as an owner and it's not pretty.

I've been in business going on 33 years referrals only I had 10 employees my 2nd year. But I was trying to build a reputation and my standard of quality wasn't there so I downsized. I don't need the stress or need to be big to make money.


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## 623Carpenter (Oct 1, 2021)

Ianthebesta said:


> I feel as if I'm attracting the wrong customers with that "17% Discount".


You are.

Discount prices attract discount customers. This is the reason I don't look for work on Nextdoor. My immediate neighborhood is not full of the types of customers I want. My neighbors won't pay my prices so I had to market in the areas that do. Now I don't have to fight for $75 handyman jobs that someone else will do for $50 when the homeowner thinks it's worth $25. 

I have repeat customers who have never gotten a discount, and who have never asked for one either. You're going to be known as the discount flooring guy and that's not sustainable. If you want to do something nice for your customers give them a 2% kick back for any referral that you convert. But to start, charging them that 17% is the smart thing to do.


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

Cut way back on your marketing and start focusing on knocking out flawless jobs. The money will come.


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## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

_I want to add. This is my 9th year in business and only the second year that I haven’t had a slow down mid December to mid or end of January _


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Same here. It is actually ramping up as the year ends.

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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> The idea that you need some sort of construction experience to run a construction business is nonsense. Businessmen run businesses, no matter the business.


Look around, there are plenty of people running construction businesses who who aren't really businessmen.


If you're going to be a truck ass contractor, you better get some management in that knows the operations.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

You have 2 guys doing all the work.

You’ve listed two weeks worth of work.

Not sure what you bring to the table, but it’s not a ton of work evidently.

And you want two untested guys working basically part time to pay you to do God knows what, AND support a $5500/month advertising habit, that evidently doesn’t work.

And that right there is what’s wrong with this country. So much glut and fluff with no real worth, driving up prices and time schedules, to pay for 6 Chiefs for every Indian. 🙄


$5500/month is a decent salary in most places. Just pay yourself that and stay home, and you’d be ahead of the game. 😳👍🙄

Bag up, learn the trade, work with your guys, and you’ll make money.

Hiring yet MORE people is not the answer.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

Stunt Carpenter said:


> I have to agrees that’s a ton on advertising. Are you just working directly to the customers of through a flooring store?


Directly though customers.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

VinylHanger said:


> 5,500 a month? That's more than many spend in an entire career. That's insane for a salesman and a two man crew. I spent 45 bucks on a box of cards once. That's it. I may need to spend another 45 bucks next month or so. Rarely need them.
> 
> Those prices seem insanely low to me. You would have to do that entire first job in like two days to even come out ahead.
> 
> ...


Hey, thanks for the reply, I do agree my marketing costs are high but the leads aren't showing for it. I think I'm going to join them on-site for the next couple of jobs to see how it goes, We are fully insured and they are covered.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

JoeStanton said:


> 66k a year in advertising for 2 guys? That's completely insane and you need to rethink this whole thing. Your number seem very low and you need to bag up. Two new hires on their own off the bat is a bad idea. Have you called any local flooring co's to see what they get for installs?
> 
> I make damn good money on flooring but almost always as part of a reno. My hardwood guys is about a year out and he runs though a 5k sq ft house in about a week. All the flooring suppliers here are begging for subs, not sure what they pay.


Hey, Thanks for the reply!
Can you explain "bag up? Also what do you mean by "what they get for installs". Sorry, I don't mean to come off rude just not understanding exactly.
I've heard the profit margins as a sub aren't as good as direct homeowner selling, This is why I haven't tried to go and reach out to them.



Warren said:


> How could "office work" eat up that much time for 2 employees? Something is way out of whack with your whole business plan.


My day-to-day goes something like this. Either I'm answering phone calls, doing estimates, filing taxes, running social media, building systems for the business. I do keep myself busy most days doing something to benefit the business.



Kowboy said:


> I spend $13,000.00 a month (about 16% of my gross sales) in advertising to keep two guys and a trainee busy full time. All are paid about 10% more than market rates. Yesterday was the last day they'll work until January 3rd, they're paid through then, and they got a cash bonus.
> 
> I helped out for half a day this month and learned that my tool days are over at 66. I've never made more money in my life than in 2021.
> 
> ...


Thank you!!! I'm happy someone understands my mineset. At the end of the day reguardless of how much I spend on marketing you should always make a ROI to favour the amount you spend. Sure if I was getting so many leads that I had to start saying no to most of them I can see how my marketing costs are high but I feel asif there is something wrong.

Thanks for the reply!



623Carpenter said:


> You are.
> 
> Discount prices attract discount customers. This is the reason I don't look for work on Nextdoor. My immediate neighborhood is not full of the types of customers I want. My neighbors won't pay my prices so I had to market in the areas that do. Now I don't have to fight for $75 handyman jobs that someone else will do for $50 when the homeowner thinks it's worth $25.
> 
> I have repeat customers who have never gotten a discount, and who have never asked for one either. You're going to be known as the discount flooring guy and that's not sustainable. If you want to do something nice for your customers give them a 2% kick back for any referral that you convert. But to start, charging them that 17% is the smart thing to do.


I Agree, I've started to not actually input that discount. I think it was a good learning experiance though.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

I appreciate all the responses but I think it's also a bit sad that most of the responses come hostile saying stuff along the lines of I don't know what I'm doing and implying I've failed at running a business. Was hoping to get some more supportive people trying to think of things I can change or help me make business plans rather than a bunch of people trying to argue on the internet. I guess I was kind of expecting too much from here... oh well..

Nonetheless, I did listen to some of your responses and I will try to see how to implement them.


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## Adam_PDD (Truck2go) (Aug 29, 2021)

Mordekyle said:


> Lots of words.
> 
> Direct pricing questions are not allowed, but it looks like yours are not direct questions about how much you should charge, but if you are in the same ballpark as other flooring contractors.
> 
> ...


I would think that your paid marketing is a bit high for the company's size. I would suggest cutting down on the marketing budget and trying another marketing method. I notice many subs and GC ( like our company) are usually words of the month. We don't have paid to advertise besides posting pictures and videos on Facebook. But I would recommend a website with testimonial videos to have social approval ( Real customers or pay a spoke person to mention the benefits of choosing your company). Once your self-marketing is more stable, you can consider doing SEO and doing blogs. It can't always depend on paid ads.

But of course, I also own other companies, that do require big marketing budgets. But for Construction, I really don't think so.

That is just based on our experience. I hope this will help you a bit from the marketing standpoint.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ianthebesta said:


> I appreciate all the responses but I think it's also a bit sad that most of the responses come hostile saying stuff along the lines of I don't know what I'm doing and implying I've failed at running a business. Was hoping to get some more supportive people trying to think of things I can change or help me make business plans rather than a bunch of people trying to argue on the internet. I guess I was kind of expecting too much from here... oh well..
> 
> Nonetheless, I did listen to some of your responses and I will try to see how to implement them.


It’s sad that you are soft as a baby’s neck and didn’t hear a word we said. Sure, blame US strangers that took the time to reply. Jeez, you got more advice than most. You need a list? Let me try to explain this to you….

You dont know what you are doing. 
You are being taken advantage of by your marketing team and your employees because you are not working at the job site and think throwing money away on social media will make money appear. (You would LOVE home advisor / Angie’s list.)

You ARE failing at running a business. 
Have you turned a profit yet? Have you considered that YOU are the problem? You give us buzz words like ‘implement systems’ or tell us that you choose flooring because of the ample labor pool. (Are you living in a cave?) The only system you should concern yourself with is getting work.

Bag up means to put on tool bags and do the work yourself. ‘What they are getting’ means how much does it Pay!? You don’t know this phrase because you are an investor who is in over his head.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

> I was able to grab up two employees for $28-30.00 an hour with 4+ years of floor installation experience. Both of these guys are amazing! They know what they're doing, follow the standards I've set within the business, and best of all have the growth and goals of my business in their best interest!


If they were amazing they would make you money. Instead they shake their heads and smile while you explain goals and standards and growth. As soon as you aren’t around they are goofing off and costing you money.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

> Anyways if anyone has anything they can offer to help me get over this stressful time I'm stuck in that would be fantastic.* I am open to taking any advice *as I know people have probably been in my situation or know how to avoid getting in this situation.
> 
> Thanks!
> Ian


Seems like you didn’t really want our help. Buy this book and read it.





Amazon - Markup & Profit: A Contractor's Guide, Revisited: Stone, Michael C: 9781572182714: Books


Markup & Profit: A Contractor's Guide, Revisited [Stone, Michael C] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Markup & Profit: A Contractor's Guide, Revisited



www.amazon.com


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

> if my plan doesn't make sense to you, maybe there will be a lot who don't understand, Or maybe it's just not seeing the bigger picture and not having the investor mindset.


Or, maybe you’re wrong on all your assumptions. Maybe flooring ain’t as simple as you thought and the guys you hired are slackers and now you have convinced yourself that you are an investor and not a fool who doesn’t even know what he doesn’t know .

Us sad bunch of hostile and argumentative guys have more combined experience making and (more importantly) losing money than you would ever imagine. I do lack the investor mindset though, that’s for sure lol.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> Bag up,


Get your hands dirty there fluffy, put some tools on


Ianthebesta said:


> Directly though customers.


that’s obviously not doing much


Ianthebesta said:


> Was hoping to get some more supportive people


hop ain’t gonna get ya there


Ianthebesta said:


> I do keep myself busy most days doing something to benefit the business.


you need some paper boy training


Sounds like you need to grow a sack. Do I need to explain that 1? No, the money won’t fall from the sky sorry. Lastly, you should be embarrassed that you are donating $66k to Joe blowes advertising when there are plenty, did I say plenty of needy charities out there


Mike


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Hardwood flooring has got to be one of the most physically demanding businesses in construction, speed is key but you better be sure flooring is acclimated and boards are tight if you screw up it all comes out. Every mistake is very visible. Very competitive pricing.
And if you have never laid a floor before or only done a few you have no business having a flooring business.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Ianthebesta said:


> I appreciate all the responses but I think it's also a bit sad that most of the responses come hostile saying stuff along the lines of I don't know what I'm doing and implying I've failed at running a business. Was hoping to get some more supportive people


I thought the responses should have been expected. Sure, you're looking for specific types of input within certain parameters, but you get what you get, and all if it's useful.

Your question essentially is "I'm failing right now, how do I become successful?".

You have three critical things to work out. Production, estimation, and lead generation. I don't mention pricing, because that's the easiest part for a businessman.

You have 2 experienced guys, I'd sit down with them separately and have them estimate how much labor to do various typical installs and some difficult installs. Then you can compare the two, and dig into any major differences to see what the underlying difference in thinking is. Ideally the output of this exercise will allow you to accurately estimate labor for any job, but it takes adjusting based on actual performance.

Production you can be on site and see if there are obvious ways to improve, or you can ask for your guys to give ideas on how to improve production. Some tool, packout boxes, material handling equipment, what ever. Think working smarter, not harder. 

I'm word of mouth, so you have to go with other's input on lead generation.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

rrk said:


> Hardwood flooring has got to be one of the most physically demanding businesses in construction, speed is key but you better be sure flooring is acclimated and boards are tight if you screw up it all comes out. Every mistake is very visible. Very competitive pricing.
> And if you have never laid a floor before or only done a few you have no business having a flooring business.


From what I gather he's trying to do this closer to owning stock in a company. It probably can be done, but I wouldn't choose flooring.

Niche markets with no comparable competition have a lot more pricing power.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm wondering what "systems" a guy needs a to work on all day every day for two guys?

My system would be, sell job, order material, show up, install, clean up and get paid.

Didn't even take me long to figure it out.

With two or three crews it might take a bit more organization, but not much.

It's not like building houses, or even siding houses. It's pretty straight forward... if you know what you are doing. If not...

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

Adam_PDD (Truck2go) said:


> I would think that your paid marketing is a bit high for the company's size. I would suggest cutting down on the marketing budget and trying another marketing method. I notice many subs and GC ( like our company) are usually words of the month. We don't have paid to advertise besides posting pictures and videos on Facebook. But I would recommend a website with testimonial videos to have social approval ( Real customers or pay a spoke person to mention the benefits of choosing your company). Once your self-marketing is more stable, you can consider doing SEO and doing blogs. It can't always depend on paid ads.
> 
> But of course, I also own other companies, that do require big marketing budgets. But for Construction, I really don't think so.
> 
> That is just based on our experience. I hope this will help you a bit from the marketing standpoint.


Thank you! I want to try getting more organic marketing but I'm worried about not being able to keep my guys busy as I already am having trouble with.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

hdavis said:


> I thought the responses should have been expected. Sure, you're looking for specific types of input within certain parameters, but you get what you get, and all if it's useful.
> 
> Your question essentially is "I'm failing right now, how do I become successful?".
> 
> ...


Hey, Thanks for the reply. We do take the time as a team to try and improve production by thinking of ideas etc. I will try doing this again to maybe see if there's something we're missing. I like the idea of taking them aside and seeing how long each thinks it would take to do a project. I will try this!

Ian


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

VinylHanger said:


> I'm wondering what "systems" a guy needs a to work on all day every day for two guys?
> 
> My system would be, sell job, order material, show up, install, clean up and get paid.
> 
> ...


Well some examples of the systems are daily and job checklists to make sure everything gets done and we also make sure we stick to our standards "e.i cleaning up etc"

Like one time I went to the site and saw the tools kind of left all over the house soI told them we need to make sure we wrap everything up every day and keep it a nice clean work enviorment. Another day I came to the site it wasn't perfect but it could have been done better to what I consider our standard. So I spent the time making an "end of day checklist" to make sure that one, whoever does and signs it takes responsibility for the cleanup and two no one forgets a step as a normal human can do.

Now I don't spend all my days making these things but mostly it's doing estimates, ordering material, doing followups, etc. I try to find time to go to the site but I always end up needing to walk away to do something.


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## Half-fast Eddie (Aug 21, 2020)

Ianthebesta said:


> So I spent the time making an "end of day checklist" to make sure that one, whoever does and signs it takes responsibility for the cleanup and two no one forgets a step as a normal human can do.


okaaay! Well there’s one reason i won’t be working for you.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

Half-fast Eddie said:


> okaaay! Well there’s one reason i won’t be working for you.



Cleaning:

 Sweep and dispose of any dust in work area
 Remove and dispose of any debris in work area
 Dispose of any larger garbage (If Applicable)
 Neatly stack and sort any remaining materials out of clients way
 Do a final walk around to make sure there are no remaining debris, etc

Wrapping up:

 Collect all remaining tools
 Properly coil up any hoses or extension cords
 Neatly stack / organize all tools in a corner or pile out of clients way
 Do a final walk around to make sure there are no remaining tools, etc
 Cover tools with provided drop cloths
 Say final goodbye to client (If Applicable)
Notes:



 Name Date Signature

It's not that hard... If we have a standard that we promise our clients to secure a job then we need to make sure we stick to that standard. If I sit there every day and just tell them to do this do that then eventually they'll get fed up. This way I give them a list that they can follow even if I'm not there. This also allows me to see if they can follow instructions when I am not there. Learning to see who cares about the standard more so they can grow within a the business to a PM or team leader. I am trying to build this standard early on so we can fizzle the checklist out over time and then it be a standard that'll be taught to new comers in the business.


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## JoeStanton (Sep 24, 2008)

I guess I just don't understand at this point. I'm a gc with 2 guys and manage a dozen or so subs running about 2-4 jobs depending on size. I still bag up about 20 hours a week and I can answer my phone onsite. If you want to specialize your going to need more guys or get in the game. I make 20% off all my subs and that's what pays for my babysitting while my guys also make me money.

If I handed my guys a end of day checklist they would laugh and throw it in the trash. Not as disrespectful but they know my expectations. Nothing wrong with systems but you need to get the company in place first IMO.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

JoeStanton said:


> Bag up means to put the tools on and go to work. 66K is $33 an hour for marketing, to me that's nuts. You sound like you came here to get what you wanted to hear. I would re read the thread and realize everyone is telling you about the same thing.
> 
> What are the guys working out of? How efficient are they on site? Are they taking 1.5 hour lunches and 1hr long coffee breaks? All this stuff you will need to be on site to figure out. I spend stupid money on tools but I can't find help. I focus on efficiency and making sure we get things done as clean and fast as possible.
> 
> The way I'm reading it at this point is " Hey Jon this is Tom you'll be working together. Here is the jobsite address good luck!" If you can find the work you might be better off using subs. Only hands off flooring folks I know own a flooring showroom, sell the material and sub the work.


They are barely taking breaks and lunches, Sometimes they take a quick smoke or a 10-15 to eat a sandwich. I know this for sure because my clients or other trades have told me so I know they're not just sitting around not getting anything done.
What it looks like when we get a new job is I meet them there, introduce them to the clients and help them unload the tools, and go over the scope of work. I show them minor things that need to be done (ei. Poi, Direction of floor, baseboards, Shoe etc)
Once they're set up I normally leave from there. I do stop by the site often to see how things are going or if they need something but most of the time I'm on the other side of the city doing estimates.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

JoeStanton said:


> I guess I just don't understand at this point. I'm a gc with 2 guys and manage a dozen or so subs running about 2-4 jobs depending on size. I still bag up about 20 hours a week and I can answer my phone onsite. If you want to specialize your going to need more guys or get in the game. I make 20% off all my subs and that's what pays for my babysitting while my guys also make me money.
> 
> If I handed my guys a end of day checklist they would laugh and throw it in the trash. Not as disrespectful but they know my expectations. Nothing wrong with systems but you need to get the company in place first IMO.


That's exactly what I'm trying to do with the checklist. We need to build the foundation from concrete so it will stand strong for years... Not sand so we have to come back and fix it within a year.,


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

623Carpenter said:


> If you are paying someone ~$4K/month for facebook/IG marketing then there is no reason for you to do social media. Are you getting any ROI from them? If not fire them and do it yourself.
> 
> Are you really doing taxes that often? Why? Maybe Canada is different but I don't understand why this is part of your day to day. Hire an accountant.
> 
> ...


When I said social media I mean posting on Instagram etc (branding), They cover all the lead generation from the ads.

As they said in the first meeting the first month is really good and then the second is okay and the third is low, once you hit 4-5 months it starts to get really good again. Now the reason it works like this is that they're learning our market and figuring out where to put the ad spend. If I could explain how the first 3 months have been that is exactly how it was. The first month I had over 45 leads come in. 

I've been trying to catch up on my 2021 taxes, I only have 3 months left to be totally caught up and then I will be doing it once a month as I've blocked off a day every 2 weeks for payroll, scheduling, and taxes.

"You've done a couple jobs with low margins."
I don't expect success over night whats so ever! I know it might be over a year until I even see decent profit margins. The reason why I came on here is so I don't crash and burn before I get there. I am investing in myself to run this business, I am learning everything for the first time so it's a lot to take in. I will get a grasp of this.

I'm not doubting that there is a lot of advice within the messages people gave me. I can take criticism but I don't think the way some of the responses came out was respectful. I'm not used to the forum pages as when I normally get help from a group of contractors through coaching calls and stuff like that, On there it's mainly very respectful and professional people giving responses understanding you're looking for help and trying to give you advice in your situatuion as respectfully as they can. I wasn't expecting people to baby me but not to bash me either.

Thanks for your reply


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Ianthebesta said:


> most of the time I'm on the other side of the city doing estimates.


You have 1 crew of 2 people
How long does it take to do a flooring estimate to keep a flooring crew busy for a week ? My guy can give me a price in 20 min tops

You should be so far ahead in estimates if you are doing them all day every day that you would need 5 or more crews


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I wish you lots of luck and success. Seriously, I do.

However, your answers make it painfully obvious you haven't ever been in a small construction company.

Most of us work all day, 6-10 hours, then do the other stuff.

It is rare I can leave a job and have stuff getting done. The current job is an exception because we have subs and we also subbed out a good part to ourselves. Buddy and I partnered up and his guys do the finish and hardwood floors.

But the demo, reframing, subfloor, miscellaneous carpentry? That's all me and him bagging up with the crew. You need to put time into the trades. You will learn a lot from your successes and your mistakes.

Even guys who run with the big dogs on here are doing the grunt work many times. Deliveries, helping frame or pour concrete, etc.

You keep getting the same suggestions, and keep finding ways to disagree.

Believe me, even the least of the guys on this board, as far as volume, can tell you pretty much what I've just said.

And the lower the volume, the more you need to actually do the physical work.

Most, if not all of my work is from referrals and the network I've built up by being on the job, not social media or cold calling customers.

Your mileage may vary, but it sounds likebit doesn't.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

This is quite funny actually.

Your contribution is to “help unload tools?”

How are you laying out the job for tease guys, when by your own admission you know nothing about flooring, you think you’re an investor, and your guys are geniuses?

I still don’t see what you bring to the table. 2 guys doing floor installs can’t support basically 2 other guys as well, who contribute basically nothing. Yay would be you and your advertising habit, which is a salary for two guys for all practical purposes.

You’re talking about hiring a PM and a helper. YOU HAVE TWO GUYS!! 🤣

What you need to do is get to work. If you want to drive around all day, get a job with Uber.

And making a list about sweeping up!? 😳🤣 That’s first year apprentice $)(t bro.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

rrk said:


> You have 1 crew of 2 people
> How long does it take to do a flooring estimate to keep a flooring crew busy for a week ? My guy can give me a price in 20 min tops
> 
> You should be so far ahead in estimates if you are doing them all day every day that you would need 5 or more crews


Well I go by the 95-5 rule. I really spend most the time learning the customer and selling to their needs. I also do estimates on-site instead of going home to write them up. Most estimates take 45 -1:15


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Ianthebesta said:


> Well I go by the 95-5 rule. I really spend most the time learning the customer and selling to their needs. I also do estimates on-site instead of going home to write them up. Most estimates take 45 -1:15


Its a floor, not a vacation home. Their needs are to finish or cover the floor.
You should be a politician, you are as out of touch as they are


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

VinylHanger said:


> I wish you lots of luck and success. Seriously, I do.
> 
> However, your answers make it painfully obvious you haven't ever been in a small construction company.
> 
> ...


I appreciate this. I believe you do.

I don't have any problem with going on site to do the work. I believe in one of my earlier responses I mentioned I already had that idea. I wouldn't mind doing the "other stuff" (I'm assuming you mean admin stuff and estimates etc) in the evenings either but I already do. Normally when I reach out to clients about setting appointments I more go off of their schedule. They're staggered out throughtout the day and sometimes I can't really drive 45mins to the site to than spend 20mins there and drive another 45 mins back for an estimate. Normally when I have this downtime I just make use of time either doing follow up calls or even door knocking. I don't just sit on my butt hoping everything is going to be done for me but I do spend a lot of my time estimating.

At the end of the day I'm going to try to focus a lot of my time more on-site and helping / seeing what a 3rd person might do. Or maybe me being there will just make them pick up the pace. I'll have to wait and see. My biggest fear is not keeping them busy as I would never send someone home without work. This is mainly why I spend my days doing estimates or doing anything to get leads. My closing rate isn't great and again I'm not sure if its to do with my pricing or maybe the time of year but I have worked on my sales process a lot, I feel as if I can sell pretty well. I have 3 jobs booked in january and my first week is a bit dry. Tomorrow once we're back to work my first thing is follow up with leads and book estimates to get that week filled. Aka pulling me away from the jobsite. This is the loop I'm stuck in.

Thanks again for the reply.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> This is quite funny actually.
> 
> Your contribution is to “help unload tools?”
> 
> ...


Brother... I hired two skilled floor installers. They know how to lay the floor out and I'm there helping them do it. I help them unload tools because I'm not stuck up and going to sit in my truck while they do it.

Me talking about a PM is for the future, I built a company to grow within. The helper is the bring the labor cost down on the "first-year apprentice work" and if they can't follow a list about sweeping up then they never passed first-year apprentice. In the early stages of our business, everyone has to pick up the slack and do some ***** work.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

rrk said:


> Its a floor, not a vacation home. Their needs are to finish or cover the floor.
> You should be a politician, you are as out of touch as they are


Look at it this way.

I walk into a house to estimate a job about these nice new floors, top quality flooring, long-lasting, super durable, great warranty.

After I explain about all those great things and give them a price they tell me well I'm actually moving out so none of that matters all I want is it done as quick as possible so I can list my house. WASTE OF TIME

If I walked in and asked questions like "So what's the story, why did you call us here" or ask any questions to see WHY they are getting their floors changed then I can sell to THEIR needs. The thing about sales is you want as much information as you can get. Like pain points, "Excuse me but before I go ahead and make this estimate for you, are there any major concerns you have about this project? (I would only ask this if I wasn't able to get anything out of them during the walk around) Maybe they say something like "Oh yes there is! I'm really worried about hearing these squeaks in our floor once we get the new hardwood in" Now I can go ahead and say "Oh no that's no problem we can promise you we will remove at least 90% of those squeaks by screwing in your subfloor and tightening it up as much as possible for you. On top of that if we get a deposit today I will actually give you a roll of tape to stick on your floors whenever you hear a squeak from now until we start so we can make sure we don't miss any spots"

Now if Jim walks in and just gives them a price and walks out if there isn't anything other than the EXPERIENCE they had to compare the two companies and they'll most likely go with the person who educated and gave them the best experience.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ianthebesta said:


> Look at it this way.
> 
> I walk into a house to estimate a job about these nice new floors, top quality flooring, long-lasting, super durable, great warranty.
> 
> ...


Hi, I’m William with Gutter Pros, how can I help you? (Then I shut up and let them tell me what they want.) 
By the time I get to the house I’ve already pre-qualified the customer on the phone. I know whether it’s their forever home or they’re just gonna be there for two more years until their kid graduates high school or expecting their employer to transfer them across the country.

You admit your closing rate sucks in one post and then in the next post you say “The thing about sales is…” And then you start explaining sales to us. Would you try to explain football to Tom Brady? I’d bet your sales rate sucks cause you are blabbering on about systems and warranties when the customer just wants a number.

If you came to my house and spent an hour and 45 minutes to give me a flooring estimate I kick you out and never invite you back in again. 

Your posts remind me of all the 25 year old kids that are ‘trying to get their “start up” off the ground’. When pressed, it turns out they just have some guy in India making a rudimentary iPhone app for a service that’s already saturated. You are trying to reinvent the wheel. Hire a commission only outside sales guy and I bet your close rate would skyrocket.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Ianthebesta said:


> Brother... I hired two skilled floor installers. They know how to lay the floor out and I'm there helping them do it. I help them unload tools because I'm not stuck up and going to sit in my truck while they do it.
> 
> Me talking about a PM is for the future, I built a company to grow within. The helper is the bring the labor cost down on the "first-year apprentice work" and if they can't follow a list about sweeping up then they never passed first-year apprentice. In the early stages of our business, everyone has to pick up the slack and do some *** work.


You missed the point. Completely and thoroughly. 

I said you should be doing MORE grunt work, not less.


You help unload tools and walk the job, which takes 30 minutes max. You booked two jobs.

That’s about 2 hours of work.

I fail to see how that entitles you to a full month of pay.

Ive been on this forum for almost 11 years, I’ve been in the trades for more than 25 years, and you’re not the first kid to come on here and think he’s going to make a killing sitting on his ass doing “marketing” and “implementing systems”. 🙄

You want to make money? Get to work.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

Also, if I had to tell my help to clean up after themselves I’d fire them. I would not get on the internet and refer to them as awesome installers.

Just thinking about making a cleanup list makes my blood boil. Insanity man.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

The construction industry doesn’t need anymore paper pushers who don’t know the trade.

Selling a project right now is about as easy as selling a raft to a drowning man. There is such a shortage of skilled labor right now it’s unprecedented.

What we don’t have a shortage of is wannabes and paperbois.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

WBailey1041 said:


> Also, if I had to tell my help to clean up after themselves I’d fire them. I would not get on the internet and refer to them as awesome installers.
> 
> Just thinking about making a cleanup list makes my blood boil. Insanity man.


Thats the other thing I was gonna say.

A signed paper that you swept up?! 😳🙄 Dafuq??

You’re not locking up the fkking Launch Codes every night FFS. 🙄


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Newspaper Headline- "Man found bludgeoned to death by floor sanding machine, police suspect foul play"


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Wannabe paper boy found strung up by his sack. Investigators said he could not pay his 2 hands because he broke the bank paying Joe blowes ad service


Mike


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## Thom Paine (Nov 21, 2021)

For $1000. Alex, 
Yoda says, "Sanding machine, what is a floor?"

Really, I hope the kid decides to listen, instead of crowing about how good he is while falling on his face.

Some succed in spite of themselves; maybe he's one.


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## Porterfarm (Apr 1, 2019)

Ianthebesta said:


> Brother... I hired two skilled floor installers. They know how to lay the floor out and I'm there helping them do it. I help them unload tools because I'm not stuck up and going to sit in my truck while they do it.
> 
> Me talking about a PM is for the future, I built a company to grow within. The helper is the bring the labor cost down on the "first-year apprentice work" and if they can't follow a list about sweeping up then they never passed first-year apprentice. In the early stages of our business, everyone has to pick up the slack and do some *** work.


How many tools are you unloading?
For flooring, doesn't most of f the tools you need fit into a drywall bucket?

You mentioned that you did give floors or the last five floors you weren't getting your numbers you need. where can you cut cost? Start highest dollars first, and lowest ROI items....

If you're marketing right now are to existing home owners in there home, why do you think the market is slowed this month? Particularly this time of month?
Could the holidays have anything to do with it? ( Most people want projects finished before Christmas, not start one)

January/ February can be slow as people finish paying off the Holiday expenses....

You're carrying just short of $25k / month in expense. To clear that before you begin to make a dime, you need to installing 12k ft of flooring,. If small houses have 150 sqft RMS larger you may get 400 sqft, so that's potentially needing to close on 75 jobs/ month. And that's before you get paid.....

That's kinda how I see your current business model. 

You need a store front, and you gave to be more diverse in product offerings....

It's Abit daunting in how you expect to make this work. I would look harder into your numbers, and how realistic are your expectations. Money disappears quicker than it can appear.
If you like flooring, try a franchise, or any type of franchise. Buy an existing business, that you can grow. 

If you were the one doing the bulk of the labor, then I would say you may have a better chance....

The taxes, payroll, book keeping, pick materials, planning, estimating, figuring, educating, all comes after the day is completed and before the day is started for most of us. The ones who it doesn't, has already put that equity into their businesses..and that did not come easily, or by just buying into it or inheriting it. 

And even with that the failure rate is high!

Good luck.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

👍

Spot on Porterfarm.

150 sf floors, a guy could make good money banging those out himself.

Overhead would be so low it would be funny.

Quit at 3:00, look at a job on the way home, call in the materials, schedule it for next week.

No payroll, taxes, marketing, managing, IG, systems implementing, just hard work, sweat, and money.

And that doesn’t appeal to some folks. 🤣👍


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## Adam_PDD (Truck2go) (Aug 29, 2021)

Ianthebesta said:


> Thank you! I want to try getting more organic marketing but I'm worried about not being able to keep my guys busy as I already am having trouble with.


I understand where you are coming from. I think management would be your biggest challenge; that goes for all contractors. Managing specific projects for profits, projects for cash flow, and projects to keep employees working to stay with the company (low-profit margin or fast, small jobs). But don't worry man., we all have been thru that at some point. You will get thru it for sure 🤙


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## DeskJockey (Jul 12, 2021)

Ianthebesta said:


> My closing rate isn't great and again I'm not sure if its to do with my pricing or maybe the time of year but I have worked on my sales process a lot, I feel as if I can sell pretty well.


You're chasing the bottom of the market with your "discount" advertising. This is not a path to profit.
This gets the kind of customer that will likely go on to find someone even cheaper or they'll want you to go even lower.

As someone else mentioned, focus your money on Google ads, you should be able to get plenty of leads even at 1/2 to 1/4 of that budget.

I know it varies from location to location but the biggest problem we have right now and have had this last year is having too much work and turning away more than we take.


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## Artistic Created (Aug 18, 2021)

I have been a contractor for many years (retired) and one thing I see missing in your thorough calculations is there is no markup on the flooring you install. If you're paying retail then there's a loss of profit right there. You see successful flooring companies are also distributors and the markup is where the profit is. Flooring companies mark up 30-50% or more on the product because they get it at wholesale pricing due to the amount of volume sold. Generally, a contractor's profit margin should not be lower than 8% and an average would be 15 to 18% and higher. What you're trying to do is compete with a business modal that you can't afford to do. Flooring is a good business but what you're trying to do is compete at a level that you can't. You need to discuss this with your sales reps and see about at least a 20% incentive. The irony of it is you are competing with the very same person that sells you the flooring because they use sub-contractors who are paid by the job and not by the hour. Now mind, that by law you cannot "sub-contract" to someone who is directly working from your employ to avoid Workman's Comp and employer tax liabilities which can create a huge difference in your pricing, but the fact is you are in the wrong market and should be reaching for the high-end clientele such as interior designers and custom home builders. 

The second part of this I see from a web developer's analogy is you're not investing in your website. $20 dollars a month on the best selling and marketing tool in your arsenal can impact your leads enormously. If you were to take a minimum of 1000 and put it to targetted PPC campaigns correctly by doing a thorough keyword search you would be surprised how this could turn around for you, You can reach a much higher end market doing this and leave the low hanging fruit of the Pay Per Lead fiasco. You're paying to compete with 10-20 other contractors for the same job. However if you use your website as the tool it was meant to be you would be getting leads from those who are looking for a specialist in what they do and not for someone who installs flooring from the big box stores.

I have painted multi million dollar homes of 20,000+ sq/ft and the ones who build these homes will pay the price for the best, You have to put yourself in that market.


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## Artistic Created (Aug 18, 2021)

WBailey1041 said:


> If you put that 5500 into Google ads only your phone would ring off the hook.


Nuff said


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## Artistic Created (Aug 18, 2021)

JoeStanton said:


> 66k a year in advertising for 2 guys? That's completely insane and you need to rethink this whole thing. Your number seem very low and you need to bag up. Two new hires on their own off the bat is a bad idea. Have you called any local flooring co's to see what they get for installs?
> 
> I make damn good money on flooring but almost always as part of a reno. My hardwood guys is about a year out and he runs though a 5k sq ft house in about a week. All the flooring suppliers here are begging for subs, not sure what they pay.


Agreed, I had 20 painters and only spent 20k on adverts and 10k on my site and did very well with that but then I did highend new construction so a lot of it was WOM


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

Adam_PDD (Truck2go) said:


> I understand where you are coming from. I think management would be your biggest challenge; that goes for all contractors. Managing specific projects for profits, projects for cash flow, and projects to keep employees working to stay with the company (low-profit margin or fast, small jobs). But don't worry man., we all have been thru that at some point. You will get thru it for sure 🤙


Thank you, I appreciate that.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

DeskJockey said:


> You're chasing the bottom of the market with your "discount" advertising. This is not a path to profit.
> This gets the kind of customer that will likely go on to find someone even cheaper or they'll want you to go even lower.
> 
> As someone else mentioned, focus your money on Google ads, you should be able to get plenty of leads even at 1/2 to 1/4 of that budget.
> ...


Yes, I didn't really choose it as my marketing company put that up. It is an American company so maybe that works more in the US rather than here where everyone is looking for bottom dollar... I have to ride out some of these costs (The marketing company being the bulk of it) but maybe that's just what I am going to have to do when I can. I wish I was turning away work though, My guys have work until Monday and then the schedule is open until the last week of Jan. I spent 3 hours today door-knocking just to try and keep them busy. I got one estimate done for around 10-17k (Multiple quotes) but we'll see if they bite.


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## Ianthebesta (Feb 23, 2021)

Gene Murray said:


> Ian. Spending 5k a month for advertising is lunacy. My advice is to start doing the installs yourself with one helper. Jack your bids up and forget about all these discounts. It takes time to build any kind of business up. You’re spending way more than your taking in with your current plan. Lastly there is the ups and downs when you are self employed. Good luck. Gene


Yes, Thanks for the advice.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

The side track thread has been redirected here - 50% Net

Let's let this thread remain relevant for the OPs flooring business


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