# upside down panel



## dtsinc (Jan 26, 2009)

Can a 200 amp panel be installed upside down, so the main breaker is on the bottom? The reason is because the feeders come in the bottom, and this would make the shortest (cleanest) connection.

Thank you for your input!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

If the breaker operates vertically, you may have a problem with 240.81, which requires "Up" to be "On and "Down" to be "Off". [240.81]

Otherwise, as long as none of the breakers are above 6'7". [240.24(A)]


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## dtsinc (Jan 26, 2009)

All of the breakers will still operate horizontally. Thanks!


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Do you mean like this? To me this is upside down but I don't know if this ever passed inspection. Not sure if there is an issue here or not.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Do you mean like this? To me this is upside down but I don't know if this ever passed inspection. Not sure if there is an issue here or not.


Doesn't that need a Main Breaker inside the panel?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

bwalley said:


> Doesn't that need a Main Breaker inside the panel?


Not if there's a properly-sized breaker protecting the cable feeding it.

What I don't see, but I assume is there, is a grounding conductor and ground bar.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Not if there's a properly-sized breaker protecting the cable feeding it.
> 
> What I don't see, but I assume is there, is a grounding conductor and ground bar.


It was my understanding if it took more than six movements to turn off everything in the panel, it would need a main breaker.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

bwalley said:


> It was my understanding if it took more than six movements to turn off everything in the panel, it would need a main breaker.


That only applies to the main service. If there is a breaker feeding the cable for this panel elsewhere, it is then a subpanel and does not require a main.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> What I don't see, but I assume is there, is a grounding conductor and ground bar.



look closely on the right hand side for the bar ~ you can see the ends of the grounds pointing towards the bus....at the bottom you can see the grounding conductor heading to the right [bar] as well.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

One practicle problem I can think of when load centers get flipped upside down is some brands (GE for sure) have circuit numbers stamped into the cover steel. So you get to look at upside down numbers. No big deal in my book, but probably some code guru somewhere wouldn't allow it. Crouse Hinds BR panels are no problem at all when flipped over, but for me they have lost all my business due to combo ark fault breakers that trip out for zero reason.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I have only installed one sub-panel upside down due to lack of wire "previously run by owner" and my inspector had no problems with it. It was a 20slot Square-D if that matters.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> One practicle problem I can think of when load centers get flipped upside down is some brands (GE for sure) have circuit numbers stamped into the cover steel. So you get to look at upside down numbers. No big deal in my book, but probably some code guru somewhere wouldn't allow it. Crouse Hinds BR panels are no problem at all when flipped over, but for me they have lost all my business due to combo ark fault breakers that trip out for zero reason.


Numbers are not required. You can use whatever scheme you desire. Letters, Alphanumric, Binary codes..... whatever trips your trigger. The panel only needs to be labeled to show the load served. 408.4


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Numbers are not required. You can use whatever scheme you desire. Letters, Alphanumric, Binary codes..... whatever trips your trigger. The panel only needs to be labeled to show the load served. 408.4


I recommend braille :thumbup:


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## dtsinc (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks for all your input, my panel would look like the picture, except with a main breaker on the bottom. The box is Square D, I believe the cover can be put on either way, so I don't think labeling will be an issue at all. I set the panel height at 6 feet. I think i'm good to go. Thanks again!


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## Bubbles (Sep 27, 2007)

*upside down*

I just got turned down for that a few months ago. First time ever tried and I got geeked. Breaker has to be on in up position. Somewhere in code. I think it's for firefighters mainly. Is there a code guru on here that knows where it is?


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## Bubbles (Sep 27, 2007)

*left/right*

Oops. Didnt see that til after post 480. Thanks. I think there is a left right code as well. I'll look in 240 later.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

bubbles said:


> i just got turned down for that a few months ago. First time ever tried and i got geeked. Breaker has to be on in up position. Somewhere in code. I think it's for firefighters mainly. Is there a code guru on here that knows where it is?


240.81.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

Most load centers with main breakers (that I am aware of) are designed so they can be installed either way. I don't really think of either way as "right side up" or "upside down".


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

The nice thing about Square D is that buss bars are interchangeable with some panels. I had to do that once because the stupid boss ordered the wrong material, go figure.


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## kbsparky (Oct 14, 2007)

If you are using a square D panel, the mains are mounted horizontally, so bottom feed is fine.

Look closely, the word "Line" should be stamped near the main, both right side up and up side down. 

Other brands, such as Cutler-Hammer also utilize horizontally oriented mains, allowing for top feed and bottom feed applications. :whistling


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

kbsparky said:


> .......Look closely, the word "Line" should be stamped near the main, both right side up and up side down...........


Like this:


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## dtsinc (Jan 26, 2009)

I asked my inpector about it last Friday whaen I saw him. He said there would be no problems with installing it like that. Thanks for all the input.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

480sparky said:


> Like this:


Glad I haven't been drinking tonight!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Glad I haven't been drinking tonight!


I'm not so think as you drunk I am!


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## ShaneDugas (Mar 30, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Not if there's a properly-sized breaker protecting the cable feeding it.


Sparky, you have code ref on this off the top of your head?

In reference to the sub-panel breaker requirement, not the wire size/ampacity & ocpd.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

ShaneDugas said:


> Sparky, you have code ref on this off the top of your head?
> 
> In reference to the sub-panel breaker requirement, not the wire size/ampacity & ocpd.


Welcome to CT.??

480 is CT's walking and breathing reference book when it comes to electrical. Of course he knows.

For post number one though, he requires a credit card.:w00t:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

shanedugas said:


> sparky, you have code ref on this off the top of your head?
> 
> In reference to the sub-panel breaker requirement, not the wire size/ampacity & ocpd.


310.15


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

480sparky said:


> 310.15


I guess I didn't type fast enough


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> .....For post number one though, he requires a credit card.:w00t:


I'm still waiting for Leo G's credit card to clear.:whistling


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## Rtbach (Mar 17, 2017)

*You can, but*

Most modern panels can be installed with the lugs / main at the top or bottom. I agree with comments around wasting space running feeders the length of the panel. There is one issue though. Although the branch circuit breakers are typically (but not always) designed to operate horizontally, the Main breakers are not. So, you may see an "002" with the 2 upside down if you put the main at the bottom. Looks weird. Also off is now "up" on the main. I always use a label maker for my panels (much neater than hand writing). In this case I pop out a couple of "200" labels in the right size and pop them onto the main toggle. Sometimes they have a hard time sticking, depending on the brand. You can use a dab of crazy glue if you take this approach. For me, details like this matter. Some might disagree... Hope this helps.


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

Well i hope that last post helps, theres nothing like waiting severn years for power :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Rtbach said:


> ....... Although the branch circuit breakers are typically (but not always) designed to operate horizontally, the Main breakers are not. ........


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


>


Maybe most of the panels he sees are installed horizontally?:blink:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

cwatbay said:


> Maybe most of the panels he sees are installed horizontally?:blink:


That's common in Canaduh, but then the branch circuit breakers will operate vertically.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I'm still waiting for Leo G's credit card to clear.:whistling


Try the new expiration date on his card. 

:laughing:

Since he has owed us each a dollar since about 2011 I think we need to charge him interest.

Ken, can you find a form for him to sign so we don't get accused of unfair usury?:jester:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> Try the new expiration date on his card.
> 
> :laughing:
> 
> ...


Pffft. Send 'im a 1099Misc for Unpaid/Forgiven Debt. Deduct it off your taxes and let Uncle Sam go after him.


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