# Hand rail question....



## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

A customer of mine just got out of the hospital and the wife wants to add another hand rail on the wall going upstairs. There is an existing one with returns, curves and balusters. This one will be just a 5' section on the opposite wall with no returns.

The question....what is the correct way to deal with the ends? Are they just cut at 90* or, is there an angled cut on the top and bottom ends. I have it in my head that both top and bottom ends should be cut with inward angled cuts...just not sure how severe.

Thoughts?

Thanks.


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## TJDavis (Apr 19, 2015)

Robie said:


> A customer of mine just got out of the hospital and the wife wants to add another hand rail on the wall going upstairs. There is an existing one with returns, curves and balusters. This one will be just a 5' section on the opposite wall with no returns.
> 
> The question....what is the correct way to deal with the ends? Are they just cut at 90* or, is there an angled cut on the top and bottom ends. I have it in my head that both top and bottom ends should be cut with inward angled cuts...just not sure how severe.
> 
> ...


I've always drawn details for them at a 90 degree angle to the stair rise. That make sense?


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Residential does not have to return into the wall. Although I think it is a good idea to do so.

Commercial needs to return into wall though.


Andy.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

There is no real space for returns as the opposing wall has a decorative rail with a few balusters at/on the top/2nd story floor, but ending before the first step/rise. Confusing I know.

The opposing wall ends short of the bottom stair and has a rail with balusters at the bottom end. There is a 5' section of wall, in between and opposite the wall with existing handrail and balusters with nothing. She just wants a quick hand rail put in so her husband has something on the other side to hold on to. 

There won't be any balusters...just an oak handrail with probably 3 supports. 

I dunno...just thought it would look funny to have end grain showing.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Residential does not have to return into the wall. Although I think it is a good idea to do so.
> 
> Commercial needs to return into wall though.
> 
> ...


In nj it does and continuous, but he is in Del so never mind


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

If you don't want to see the end grain, just add a return at each end by means of a couple 45° miters. Or do you have a different definition of "return"?


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Tinstaafl said:


> If you don't want to see the end grain, just add a return at each end by means of a couple 45° miters. Or do you have a different definition of "return"?


I would like the top and bottom of the handrail to extend past the wall a little to give him something to hold before he takes his first step at the top and bottom. Doing that, a return would hit nothing but air....:laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

According to R311.8.3.3 of the IRC you must return the railing into a wall or a newel post. It's too prevent clothing from catching and causing someone to trip on the stairs. 

Here's a pic from the code book I took. This is in the residential code.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Sorry that was for ramps. Here's the one for stairs. Continuity. R311.7.8.2


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## J.C. (Sep 28, 2009)

Depends on the handrail profile how well it works but cut a V into the end for a miter return into itself.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Here's one I did to meet code


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> Sorry that was for ramps. Here's the one for stairs. Continuity. R311.7.8.2


Yup, quite right, my bad.

Andy.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Robie said:


> I would like the top and bottom of the handrail to extend past the wall a little to give him something to hold before he takes his first step at the top and bottom. Doing that, a return would hit nothing but air....:laughing:


Return them down instead of into the wall, so in essence, it would just be a straight rail.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Seriously guys, can we just agree to start sketching stuff on napkins and posting a pic. My brain in going to unravel trying to figure some of these descriptions.

If the 90 degree return will leave the handrail short, can you do a J return so you run the handrail long, do a return and then another return to bring it back to the wall. Like it was going to reverse and go down another flight.

Or just run it a bit long and throw a volute on it.


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

EthanB said:


> Seriously guys, can we just agree to start sketching stuff on napkins and posting a pic. My brain in going to unravel trying to figure some of these descriptions.
> 
> If the 90 degree return will leave the handrail short, can you do a J return so you run the handrail long, do a return and then another return to bring it back to the wall. Like it was going to reverse and go down another flight.
> 
> Or just run it a bit long and throw a volute on it.


Close enough?..........


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## TJDavis (Apr 19, 2015)

Railman said:


> Close enough?........
> 
> View attachment 203954


Railman, you are handier than a hay rake on mowing day.


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## kingcarpenter (Jan 30, 2015)

*Hand rail question*

I would return it to wall as it should be. I do a 22 on long piece with a 22 return which looks much better. Leaving it flooping in the wind can be a hazard especially if it extends past wall. Ditto what Ethan said about layout/pics.


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

kingcarpenter said:


> I would return it to wall as it should be. I do a 22 on long piece with a 22 return which looks much better. Leaving it flooping in the wind can be a hazard especially if it extends past wall. Ditto what Ethan said about layout/pics.



He means this:


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## kingcarpenter (Jan 30, 2015)

*hand rail question*

Thanks raiman. This ol tech challenged geezer needs all the help he can get. Learning though with 3 new grandkids. As mentioned before did a lot of work in your Mount Adam area starting out with my granddad. Sorry to jack thread but was taken back there a moment.


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## fisher44 (Dec 1, 2015)

i think this was mentioned already, but the reason to have a handrail return to the wall/post/floor is so that people don't get clothes caught on the rail and then trip and smash up their dentures or whatever.

some building codes and accessibility guidelines also recommend the rail comes out up to a foot so that people can reach out and grab the rail before lifting a step. i've also seen people stagger the brackets supporting the rail so that the bracket lines up with the edge of the tread. the idea is that when you climb stairs your hand and leading foot are in the same plane (in the middle of the tread), and keeping the brackets away from that area is desirable. i'm not sure how i feel about that one, though.


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## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

Railman said:


> He means this:
> 
> View attachment 203962


I know its an older post but I love the way that looks! I have been racking my brain how to do the railing on my current job. I was definitely doing returns but i like the angle, looks like its going into the wall to meet up with other rail. 

Mine will be for this, I had actualy thought about tying in just outside the wall, like cope it, but like like yours better.

My other question, does a 4' wide hallway/stairs need rails on both sides of the wall or can I just put on the 1 side?


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## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

Would it look nice to 45 the rails into the wall instead of 90? 

I like the way railman transitioned into the wall on the bottom railing part.

Other ideas guys?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

brhokel606 said:


> Would it look nice to 45 the rails into the wall instead of 90?
> 
> I like the way railman transitioned into the wall on the bottom railing part.
> 
> Other ideas guys?


I think it looks nice, plus you have more glue area on the rail.


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## StrongTower (Mar 4, 2010)

brhokel606 said:


> Would it look nice to 45 the rails into the wall instead of 90?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We always do a S Turn with 2 level quarter turn fittings to go around walls, and it looks nice if you use another terminating into the wall. 

But, I've done everything from a 45/90, 22/45, 30/30/30, and presently I like doing 22.5 pie that squares to the wall. 

Some staircases don't have the room at the end of run to level out, I do like that look as well


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Here the rail has to be continuous, it cant end and start up again, I normally cope it into the other rail. I have also mitered it into the rail but that took to long to do. Taking a pie shaped piece out of the rail was tedious.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

We have to be continuous – just one side under 8’ in stair width.


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## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

Absolutely beautiful work guys! Thanks for the info and ideas


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

StrongTower said:


> We always do a S Turn with 2 level quarter turn fittings to go around walls, and it looks nice if you use another terminating into the wall.
> 
> But, I've done everything from a 45/90, 22/45, 30/30/30, and presently I like doing 22.5 pie that squares to the wall.
> 
> ...


I'd love to see more pictures of you do your handrails and newels. Looks great. :thumbup: I really like the continuous handrail with S curve.


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## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

I agree with spencer, I would love to see more pictures from you guys on railing projects, those are works of art! Mad respect to you guys, just awesome.


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## StrongTower (Mar 4, 2010)

Here's a couple while I'm on lunch. The radius rail I didn't design, they had a lot of funky terminations I would've done differently if I designed.


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## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

StrongTower said:


> Here's a couple while I'm on lunch. The radius rail I didn't design, they had a lot of funky terminations I would've done differently if I designed.


Those are gorgeous


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

StrongTower said:


> Here's a couple while I'm on lunch. The radius rail I didn't design, they had a lot of funky terminations I would've done differently if I designed.
> View attachment 251833
> View attachment 251841
> View attachment 251849
> ...


I think you're missing a few balusters in that radius one. Just sayin :laughing:


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## StrongTower (Mar 4, 2010)

*Hand Rail Question....*

I didn't take many pics of it because I thought the design was so terrible. To boot they got cold rolled steel balusters from a fabricator in town and I went through so many blades trying to cut it, that I bolted after getting installed.


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## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

StrongTower said:


> I didn't take many pics of it because I thought the design was so terrible. To boot they got cold rolled steel balusters from a fabricator in town and I went through so many blades trying to cut it, that I bolted after getting installed.


I think it looks great


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Residential does not have to return into the wall. Although I think it is a good idea to do so.
> 
> Commercial needs to return into wall though.
> 
> ...


Andy, is that in CA code book? I just had to look up NJ IRC 2009 code, and it shows that you have to make returns. I know awhile back it was ok to leave open ended, but I remember that was changed about 5 years or so back.

R311.7.7.2 Continuity. Handrails for stairways shall be
continuous for the full length of the flight, from a point
directly above the top riser of the flight to a point directly
above the lowest riser ofthe flight.* Handrail ends shall be
returned or shall terminate in newel posts or safety terminals.*
Handrails adjacent to a wall shall have a space ofnot
less than 11/ 2 inch (38 mm) between the wall and the
handrails.
Exceptions:
1. Handrails shall be permitted to be interrupted
by a newel post at the turn.
2. The use of a volute, turnout, starting easing or
starting newel shall be allowed over the lowest
tread.

Never mind someone already posted that!!!


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## TractHomeTrades (Jun 14, 2015)

It's a safety issue. Depending on your region, the rail generally must return into the wall in such a way that a purse or other loose accessory would not get caught on it and pull a person off balance on the steps.


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## StrongTower (Mar 4, 2010)

*Hand Rail Question....*

Here's the return for grab rails I currently do, I was a big fan of a 30/30/30, but a buddy talked me into this. I also do this one on mitered winder rails, they take the point out the miter on a 90.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

StrongTower said:


> Here's the return for grab rails I currently do, I was a big fan of a 30/30/30, but a buddy talked me into this. I also do this one on mitered winder rails, they take the point out the miter on a 90.
> View attachment 252961


Do you like this one better because its easier? Or do you just like the look better?

Is this what your 30 30 30's look like?


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## StrongTower (Mar 4, 2010)

Yes, that would be it. To be honest I went this new route because my main builder does a lot of switchback landing stairs and you can get rail brackets closer to the end of the run, when they conveniently forget to put blocking in the wall.


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