# Customer wants a refund mid job. Rain Gutter Job.



## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Shoot, I'm surprised he even offered 1/3. Most would have said "well demo is really easy, I could have had the demo done by some random person for $75 so I want the other $925."


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

tell him the 3 guys all have their master plumbers license and he actually owes you another 600


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Are the new gutters on site? If so that changes things.

Otherwise, charge whatever your hourly rate is for the guys who were there and the hours and refund the rest.

If you move here I can put you to work all day for gutters removed and replaced at $5 a foot. I'm nearly double that.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Are the new gutters on site? If so that changes things.
> 
> Otherwise, charge whatever your hourly rate is for the guys who were there and the hours and refund the rest.
> 
> If you move here I can put you to work all day for gutters removed and replaced at $5 a foot. I'm nearly double that.


Bam are these gutters that you just figure into your roofing price or do you also have a crew that just goes out and only does gutters with your machine? Thats awesome money:thumbup:


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## generalnobody (Mar 12, 2014)

I think you would be more than justified to tell him that you will install the new gutters as you were contracted to once they have repaired the eaves. No warranty though as its not your work to repair the eaves. 

He contracted with you for a service, so he should allow you to complete your service. Its bad enough that he's taking the potatoes off your plate by giving the repair job to someone else in the middle of your job.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

NYGUTTERGUY said:


> Bam are these gutters that you just figure into your roofing price or do you also have a crew that just goes out and only does gutters with your machine? Thats awesome money:thumbup:


I sub out gutters. I normally have them listed with the roof as an option for people. I'll have the roof price and a discounted gutter price because we don't charge for removal when it's coming down with the gutters.

My subs charge me a little over $5 a foot so I can only figure their homeowner work to be much more.


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## PoleBarnsNY (Jan 18, 2014)

Don't miss the lesson. Think about how you can improve your presentation to take the shock away when extensive damage has occurred. Something may be missing in your presentation for them to think someone else is a better option after the fact. Perhaps you could tune up the hidden conditions section of your presentation to future customers. Nobody likes surprises. It isn't a surprise if they know it's very possible.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

BThomas said:


> I can see the guy being upset. A $1000 job turns into an almost $5000 job. I would guess that he thought additional rot might double the cost at most. I'm not saying you price is wrong but 5 times the original quote is a big shock.
> Perhaps for future work you should make people aware that the cost of replacing rotten wood could be more than the price of the gutters.
> Back to the original question. As was said before - figure what you need to cover the removal and refund the balance. Tell him how sorry you are that it did not work out as planned and should he need you to install the gutters after someone else repairs the rot please call you. Let him know that you know he is probably having sticker shock but that the price you quoted him is for a solid job with no shortcuts.
> Bill T


Just be honest and reasonable as above BTOM's idea.

It was YOUR CONTRACT that was silent in regard to options/costs in event of significant repairs beyond replacing gutter.

I think resonable would constitute *offering* to let him repair the rot on his own ticket and you will complete new gutter as previously paid.... or if it is more convenient for him, you find his offer fair, even though your scheduling was such that perhaps you will loose money on a part day tear down.

It was YOUR contract, that did not define options/requirements.... you took the risk of downtime with rot.... your men probably would not of started repairs initially....

Just because a good customer paid you in advance for the entire job, does not ethically allow you to gouge him, or require him to take your repair price without competively pricing..

I can't evaluate the reasonableness of your cost to repair the damage, but gutter contractors that want 60/hour for their laborer's tear down are nothing but an expensive whore around here. 

I honestly think, given the circumstances. and the lack of clarrity in *your* contract and your clients good faith full payment up front, that your questioning his settlement offer is what gives contractors a bad name.

You have no material costs... and you are worried about $700. You've got problems buddy. And that is expressly why clients do not trust and prepay work.

And another thing, alot of people on here (alot do not) like to think if they are beat on price, it must be a hack.....

Have you ever thought that maybe you are a gouger and your valueation of your work and expertise in hanging a gutter (or making facia/soffit repairs might be overvalued by yourself. )

As a GC, I am a buyer of services (subs) and a seller of my own services and much of my own work.....

I have rarely found the highest bid to be the best quality....

Sorry guys.... I just think this OP's issue is rediculous and unwarrented... chit... I'm tempted (just tempted) to send him the $700 that he is crying about.

Wake up .... be professional/responsible/honest.

Best to ya...... Ya can always sell used cars if gutters don't work out.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Just be honest and reasonable as above BTOM's idea.
> 
> It was YOUR CONTRACT that was silent in regard to options/costs in event of significant repairs beyond replacing gutter.
> 
> ...


The price the OP had was $1000 for gutters and prob leaders. The $3800 is for all new wood, soffit, most likely aluminum fascia...Most likely would have been only another 5-600 just to replace rotten wood


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## libbycop (Dec 5, 2011)

Pro rate your cost whatever it is and refund him the rest..move on

not worth headache over a $1000 job


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Few jobs we tear off old gutters needed no new repair. I look from the ground the best I can for obvious signs of rot but nothing's full proof. 

I had a separate line in my contract: 
Rot Discovery Clause: At any point at time of tear off, rot is discovered you hereby authorize----------- to make all necessary repairs based on material costs (Materials subject to 20% handling fees) plus $---.00 per hour above the agreed contract price. Customer initial_______________.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

libbycop said:


> Pro rate your cost whatever it is and refund him the rest..move on
> 
> not worth headache over a $1000 job



easy to say.

everyone seems to be forgetting the fact that a contract was signed..the first thing everyone wants to pounce on in this forum..."was there a contract?" "you did have a contract right?"

if you dont respect your own contract that why should an HO?

the guy was contracted to install gutters.the homeowner signed and pre paid..if he dont like the repair costs then he can get someone to make repairs let OP install his gutters and void all warranty..period.

im sorry fellas..your contract is only as good as you want it to be..the rest is law.

NJ makes us write contracts..have certain verbage 
etc..someone signs it..they agree as in any other purchase/contract.

tell a bank you changed your mind and you want out..but will compensate them for their worthless time..

give me break..


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

NYGUTTERGUY said:


> The price the OP had was $1000 for gutters and prob leaders. The $3800 is for all new wood, soffit, most likely aluminum fascia...Most likely would have been only another 5-600 just to replace rotten wood


Agree in principal... just can't legitimately evaluate.....

But still and regardless, the clients offer seems VERY legit and honest...... his prepayment seems supportive of that analysis.... and I think to even debate it is a blackmark on our trades/professions.

Yes... The client was dumb, but well intentioned and honest, to prepay this gutter guy before he realized the gutter guys contract was silent in regard to options in the event of necessary repairs.

Just be honest/reasonable... your client sure seems to be./


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Roofcheck said:


> Few jobs we tear off old gutters needed no new repair. I look from the ground the best I can for obvious signs of rot but nothing's full proof.
> 
> I had a separate line in my contract:
> Rot Discovery Clause: At any point at time of tear off, rot is discovered you hereby authorize----------- to make all necessary repairs based on material costs (Materials subject to 20% handling fees) plus $---.00 per hour above the agreed contract price. Customer initial_______________.


THERE YOU GO.... Roof check knows what he is doing and seems that that is a very reasonable/honest/upfront contrct term.... 

This OP is crying over his own written defieciencies in his OWN contrct.

And regardless of a deficient contract that fails to address a certain issue, I think a fair reasonable settlement/solution is the best couse of action.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

jamestrd said:


> easy to say.
> 
> everyone seems to be forgetting the fact that a contract was signed..the first thing everyone wants to pounce on in this forum..."was there a contract?" "you did have a contract right?"
> 
> ...


James... Sorta agree with you.... 

but in this case a contract was signed that did not address/delineate a possible (but likely anticaipated) occurance.

It was the OP's contract.

Yes... I suppose you could *****/cry/moan till your titties fall off and try to enforce (keep the prepayment) the remaining $700 of your contract... against a seeming honest good faith customer.

Make your own decisions in life!!!!!! Tells everyone alot.... I kinda like it when I learn about someone so inexpensively.

PS: In case you haven't heard, the government has pardoned/exonerated almost 35% of this country from their bank/mortgage contracts/obligtions..... and many were not good faith honest customers.


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## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

generalnobody said:


> I think you would be more than justified to tell him that you will install the new gutters as you were contracted to once they have repaired the eaves. No warranty though as its not your work to repair the eaves.
> 
> He contracted with you for a service, so he should allow you to complete your service. Its bad enough that he's taking the potatoes off your plate by giving the repair job to someone else in the middle of your job.


+1

I have no problem pulling off a job if the HO wants to bring someone else in to do the wood work. I would first trim a little off the wood bill and see if that helps them. We have to make something, not going to give it away.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

AndyWRS said:


> +1
> 
> I have no problem pulling off a job if the HO wants to bring someone else in to do the wood work. I would first trim a little off the wood bill and see if that helps them. *We have to make something, not going to give it away.*


Andy... Have to agree with you technically from a contract standpoint (disregarding the fact that the OP'ss contract was silent in this regard).

However, consider the practical ramifications of your reputation and general fairness and consideration of a potentially fair and honest customer's convenience.

Pleae note relatively to the highlite portion, the OP is not requesting anyone to give away the repair work... he just found a better supplier that he wants.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

How did you not notice all that dry rot at bid time?...:whistling

Bid the gutters and A$$UME the repair was yours?.....:whistling


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

I would tell the customer that you scheduled and paid your men for a full day for the installation of the rain gutters because they planned to finish the job and they would have completed the rain gutters had there been no wood rot. Therefore, since the customer signed a contract, you did nothing wrong and since you have not faulted the least I would ask the customer for is for one entire day of pay for your men plus 1/2 of the profit you would have earned had the customer not cancelled and I would not accept less than $400 (maybe $500 sounds better).

I would explain that even though the men worked on the job site for two hours they had to prepare the equipment, vehicles, procure supplies and they had to travel in both directions. My last argument would be that the customer entered into a contract and since he is the one cancelling the contract to save money, or for whatever reason then the least you are entitle to should be your recovering your actual expenses and those expenses are much more that the two hours of work mentioned because you have your time giving the bid, writing the contract, scheduling and you could have utilized your valuable time working for a customer who did not cancel and cause you to lose money on another job (if you had one).

I have to deal with many job cancellations every year after work is started. I use what is called a Mutual Cancellation Agreement. The first thing I tell the customer is that we have an open contract and the customer is obligated to fulfill his part of the contract (which means pay us the full amount) until this cancellation agreement is signed. This motivates the customer to listen and agree with my terms. I tell the customer I am very willing to cancel the contract and this defuses the customer. Then, I go over the Cancellation Agreement and I write full contract total, the work that was completed and the value of the work. If the customer does not agree to my terms and offer then I tell him (nicely) that we have to do something that is agreeable or we will not cancel our contract meaning he will remain obligated to pay us the full amount (meaning we will go to court).


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## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

I probably didn't word that very well, I didn't mean free...just that there is a min amount of profit I would do the job for. The supplier thing I must have missed, I didn't recall seeing that part. 

We actually write on the contract under our comments sections: Dry rot and or termite damage extra ...and specify the per foot price installed for each fascia, soffit ect... The only unknown is footage, we can ballpark them on only the footage that's visible but let them know there could be more. We usually also provide them a price range for the wood work based on what is visible, a best case and worse case scenario. But it is just a ball park and that's made clear... Less sticker shock that way.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Your so full of chit PCplumber, I don't know where to begin! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

Inner10 said:


> I'd probably call him up and work something better out...why doesn't he want you to do it anymore?


No clue, he won’t return my calls or emails.



EthanB said:


> Seriously, $1k sounds crazy low. Is that really how cheap gutter is in NC?


Yep, I gave him a great price as well. The immigrants will hang it all day for $2-3 bucks a foot. 



Metro M & L said:


> Also, didn't your crew take down all of the rot in the time they were there? Sounds like additional work that was authorized by the client.


No, when the first gutter came down, he was advised there was rot. My guys know to stop work and check with me and the homeowner. The customer explicitly asked us to remove all of the gutters knowing full well the rot was present. Had we removed the first gutter and he said stop I’d refund everything but 149.00 which is our minimum to show up.


BamBamm5144 said:


> Are the new gutters on site? If so that changes things.
> 
> Otherwise, charge whatever your hourly rate is for the guys who were there and the hours and refund the rest.
> 
> If you move here I can put you to work all day for gutters removed and replaced at $5 a foot. I'm nearly double that.


No, we never ran out the new ones. Wisconsin? No thanks 


PoleBarnsNY said:


> Don't miss the lesson. Think about how you can improve your presentation to take the shock away when extensive damage has occurred. Something may be missing in your presentation for them to think someone else is a better option after the fact. Perhaps you could tune up the hidden conditions section of your presentation to future customers. Nobody likes surprises. It isn't a surprise if they know it's very possible.


I’m not sure what else I could have done, I bill these jobs by the foot, I explained to him once the first gutter came down that we were likely to find the same conditions behind every gutter. That’s x amount of feet and here is the cost per foot. His exact email to me is below,
Thanks for the follow-up. Installing the gutters this week will be fine with my wife. I checked!

That said, we’ve had our current gutters for years, so we’re in no rush. I would much rather the installer do the job on a good day than have him rush in around bad weather. In other words, if he’s not comfortable this week, then we’re fine with next week or beyond.

We want this job to last, so if we need to replace anything (outside of the current estimate) in the name of durability, then please have the installer call me. 



MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Just be honest and reasonable as above BTOM's idea.
> 
> It was YOUR CONTRACT that was silent in regard to options/costs in event of significant repairs beyond replacing gutter.
> 
> ...


I never said we charge 60 an hour for demo. Thanks for the colorful language though. If 180’ of 8” PVC fascia, 12” vented hardi soffit, 2x6 sub fascia and 5” seamless for under 5k is GOUGING a customer then so be it. Work up your number on it brother, were talking a complete job here, paint and all!
I appreciate your disdain for bad contractors. Take a minute and look up our 596 reviews on AL or google or yelp. You will quickly discover that I run a top notch operation, turn a healthy profit and sleep well at night with a clear conscious. The issue at hand is not ridiculous or unwarranted. The customer agreed to a project, knowing full well the possible outcome. My cost or time lost is not relevant. The issue at hand is the customers desire to exit our agreement on his terms while completely disregarding our signed agreement. What is so hard to understand about this…. The contract clearly states that WE will stop work and seek authorization if the scope of work changes. We fulfilled this requirement. Jeez, the disclaimer from my first post is even on the estimate. Being professional/responsible and honest? Would it be professional of me to break the contract? Would it be responsible to lose money and have to fire my guys? The point of a contract is to keep it honest, right?


pcplumber said:


> I would tell the customer that you scheduled and paid your men for a full day for the installation of the rain gutters because they planned to finish the job and they would have completed the rain gutters had there been no wood rot. Therefore, since the customer signed a contract, you did nothing wrong and since you have not faulted the least I would ask the customer for is for one entire day of pay for your men plus 1/2 of the profit you would have earned had the customer not cancelled and I would not accept less than $400 (maybe $500 sounds better).
> 
> I would explain that even though the men worked on the job site for two hours they had to prepare the equipment, vehicles, procure supplies and they had to travel in both directions. My last argument would be that the customer entered into a contract and since he is the one cancelling the contract to save money, or for whatever reason then the least you are entitle to should be your recovering your actual expenses and those expenses are much more that the two hours of work mentioned because you have your time giving the bid, writing the contract, scheduling and you could have utilized your valuable time working for a customer who did not cancel and cause you to lose money on another job (if you had one).
> 
> I have to deal with many job cancellations every year after work is started. I use what is called a Mutual Cancellation Agreement. The first thing I tell the customer is that we have an open contract and the customer is obligated to fulfill his part of the contract (which means pay us the full amount) until this cancellation agreement is signed. This motivates the customer to listen and agree with my terms. I tell the customer I am very willing to cancel the contract and this defuses the customer. Then, I go over the Cancellation Agreement and I write full contract total, the work that was completed and the value of the work. If the customer does not agree to my terms and offer then I tell him (nicely) that we have to do something that is agreeable or we will not cancel our contract meaning he will remain obligated to pay us the full amount (meaning we will go to court).


Thank you!

I’ll reply to the rest when I get some more free time. Thanks for the replies even though a few were full of assumptions. I didn’t ask for the collective opinion of this forum expecting sugar coated responses.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

pcplumber said:


> Your opinion is okay and I knew it was coming. This is a subject that can take a thousand pages.
> 
> .


PC..... ..... I don't have the time/inclination to disect our differences with regard to business ethics... but would note cautiously that we agree on some points.....

Primarily the individual's acceptance of their own responsibilities .

But let me explore one issue:

Would you take a relatively minor job (or bait a customer with a good price), that you realized in advance would require material and significant change order repairs, without disclosing those facts in advance to the customer, with the design and express intent to get on site and sell additional work at your expected very high margins.?


Incidentally, I also like your disclosure... do you present that, and if you do, I am actually impressed and think that is pretty honest.

Peter


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Bailey, the question is why do you need to install an all new Hardi soffit system? Why can't you just install the new wood and let him worry about what to do next.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> Your so full of chit PCplumber, I don't know where to begin! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


Probably with some toilet paper.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

WBailey1041 said:


> No clue, he won’t return my calls or emails.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bailey..... Nice clarrifying response. 

I think I have said enough times that we don't know the full story here, and apparently you honestly do not either as the customer will not return calls.

To the extent of new information you provide, (or any past info that I missed)... I would apologize for any of my preliminary and non-fully-informed conclusions that may have appeared derogatory.

( I do believe my logic was correct, just maybe not my fact situation...but the practical issue still remains the same.... are you really hurt by his attempted cancellation, and ultimately are not you served best by cooperation, assuming he was of good intent as it seemed in his pre-payment and his letter?) 

Now if the customer is a nefarious SOB, then maybe taking on the fight is just plain warrented, and fun, especially as you hold pocket aces.

Best Regards

Peter

PS: Were you not able to spot the extensive rot damage prior to contracting... or in the alternative, was the customer anywhere close to aware that damage might be anywhere near 3800.? Just Curious

Also, I apparently implied incorrectly that you ever charged 60/hour for gutter hangers... my reference was to the advice of someone posting earlier....


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> PC..... ..... I don't have the time/inclination to disect our differences with regard to business ethics... but would note cautiously that we agree on some points.....
> 
> Primarily the individual's acceptance of their own responsibilities .
> 
> ...


The answer is absolutely, 'no'. I would not PURPOSELY bait a customer with a low price, but the long version of the answer is more complicated that many may think because the way I see a high percent of customers is they purposely open themselves up and demand to be baited. This occurs almost daily when a customer is rude, arrogant, tells the contractor exactly what they want a price for, demands that the contractor does not vary from their request, displays an attitude that they will throw the contractor out for making suggestions, and refuses to listen to suggestions.

I get a high percent of these usually 30 to 40 year-old customers and these customers set themselves up for a rude awakening after the work is started. For these customers, I write every detail in the contract that explains that the contract is limited to the customer's specifications, requests and the customer will be financially liable for anything unforeseen and beyond the written scope of work. I will write that the customer did not want me to investigate the structure for additional work that may be required to complete the scope of work.

Example: I gave an estimate to remodel a bathroom. The wood floor was soft and I suspected the floor was rotted. I also like to inspect the drains and water pipes before I estimate a remodel because I am honest (I think) and I don't like to haggle with customers after the job is started. The customer was rude, told me he had several other estimates and no other contractor looked underneath the house. I take that as an insult like he (or she) is calling me stupid. So, I bid the remodel very low for $8500. I went low on purpose because I knew based on the soft floor, age of the house and the galvanized nipples and drain pipes I could see from the top that this job would turn into a goldmine and I could rub the customer's comments in his face. The final job turned into a complete bathroom remodel, new drain pipes, new water pipes, a new sub floor and $21,000.

This customer baited himself and I love to do business with these customers since they purposely make change orders and up-selling a piece of cake. This is exactly what every contractor should be doing when they bid from blueprints for remodels and new homes. We bid exactly from the plans, don't offer any suggestions and make more profit from the change orders than from the original bid.

My point to all these long posts is; I won't call the contractor in this facia board incident any names without knowing every rhyme and reason. 

I've been thrown out of many homes for making suggestions and I tend to get fairly emotional when a customer is disrespectful. One way to get even is to allow the customer to think he (or she) is smarter than myself 'ride with the tide' and 'go for the gold'.


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## pathway (Jan 9, 2014)

WBailey1041 said:


> Greetings,
> I'll cut to the chase. Customer wanted new gutters, I gave him a great price on ~180 linear foot. We did the take down 3 weeks ago, found massive wood rot. The disclaimer in our contract covers that, he knew it was going to be the case and was present when my guys were removing the old gutters. He directed them to remove all the gutters to expose ANY wood rot. They called me for approval, I called the customer to confirm. All good right?
> 
> Long story short we couldn't find ONE board that didn't have damage. I gave him a fair estimate, (180'ish feet of fascia, sub fascia and soffit using PVC, Treated and Hardi for around 3800. 18 days later I get this email,
> ...


2 things strike me as awkward in this deal. 1) The OP has the benefit of having full payment for the contracted job in his posession already, a point that speaks volumes for the clients integrity and worthiness of exceptionally fair treatment. Should no money had changed hands yet I'm sure the posted comments would be quite differant. 2) Though I've no knowlege of the OP's history or credibility as a contractor, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt& assume him to be competant, fair,& honest in his business practices. Having formerly owned a gutter machine & incorporated it in my previous exterior business I have seen similiar circumstances & a major consideration in this instance, which I would hope the OP will change in future estimates, is the lack of making the client aware of the potentential costs of rot repair before ANY work was performed. I do feel some empathy for the HO since now, rot or not, you've made changes that make his house look incomplete & in disrepair, for all his neighbors to see & perhaps start a rumour since work has stopped (every good man has pride in such things). So he has this on his mind on top of the fact that he's aware he is the underdog in negotiating since he prepaid in good faith, & he may very well have been stretched financially for the $1000 bill. If that being the case, & contractually speaking it seems he has no obligation to use you for the repair work, I wouldn't hold any hard feelings against him for shopping the best price for the repair work. 
None of this would be the case if you'd have taken the time, ( and I know it's not alot of time for a ballpark estimate as everything in your business is priced per lf or sqft ) to throw a ballpark, not firm, estimate of the potential cost once you begin removing the gutter. This may very well have caused him to get further quotes since it's 4 times the cost but he's done that anyway & you're now wasting you're time.
IMHO, to turn this into a profitable job & presumably keep the HO satisfied he's treated fairly, you most certainly have a preexisting price for service calls such as leaky corner repairs, rather than supply & install, that includes costs for individual installers, overhead & profit. Write out an invoice for the time your crew left the shop till they left the job & send it to him with breakdown description he can understand, marked paid, along with the balance owed to him. This should net you the same profit as any other service call & you don't want to complete the new gutter replacement on the contract now anyways since you'd have to convince him why that contract is more money now too due to another trip & setup. 
As for losing the full day work due to this, it shouldn't be a factor, if you're sending 2 or more crew out to only do a $1000 job in a day with nothing further or at least a backup you've more to think about than refunding a few hundred to this HO.


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