# Underage workers



## 1018 (Mar 13, 2008)

Do you have anyone who has come to you asking for a summer job, and I'm not talking about some dumb a$$ who deserves nothing more than a freezer full of burgers and a deep fryer, I'm referring to the hardworking, dedicated kids (16+) who show they want to learn something. What would be the limitations you'd give them? And how far would the law extend towards what they can do?


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

Since your are from MA as I am, first and foremost, NO ROOFING, I dont even think they can be on the ladder or the staging. Even the rules about ground clean up are pretty strict, you have to be able to show that they have NOTHING to do with the roof. Other than that, it would have a lot to do with the kid. But mostly clean up and hauling, stripping siding, ripping off shutters, light demo etc


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## JonM (Nov 1, 2007)

This is something you should discuss with your insurance agent.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I believe construction is a hazardous occupation by law. If that's the case, you cannot employ them if they are under 18. You could employ your own child though. 

If you hired them to do a non-construction thing like washing windows etc, that would probably be fine. 

They cannot drive on/for company business. Though they can drive to/from the job, driving is also a hazardous occupation.

Assuming the above is true and I believe it is, it would be both a violation of law and of your insurance to hire a minor to do this work. Any injury to the minor could result in you personally paying penalties for gross negligence.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

When I was a kid, we had to get a 
work permit under if under 18.
You might look here:
http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=elwdage...)&L3=Division+of+Occupational+Safety&sid=Elwd
If I remember correctly we were allowed 
to serve as mastodon wranglers. :laughing:


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## 1018 (Mar 13, 2008)

I would never put my (hypothetical) child or anyone elses' in harms way. I just wanted to get some other opinions. He says he wants to learn how to frame, hes been around construction for awhile and knows the basics. At least he'll know how to read plans by the end of the summer.

Thanks for the replies, the only thing he'll be doing is sweeping. :sad:


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## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

I started working on jobsites at fourteen.:thumbsup:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I'm in favor of child labor. 

I do know that kids under 18 can't use power saws.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

unless you run an Amish crew, under 18 is verboten. OSHA says no, most insurance companies say no, most states departments of labor say no.

allowing a child can result in a great amount of liability. Should the kid get hurt, simply sign everything you own over to his parents and apologize.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

nap said:


> unless you run an Amish crew, under 18 is verboten. OSHA says no, most insurance companies say no, most states departments of labor say no.


You are soooooo wrong about that. Prove it! There are definitely tasks that a child under 18 may not do on a construction site, and there are definitely tools that a child under 18 may not operate. You are sorely mistaken that a person under 18 may not be employed in construction, however. Way, way, way wrong.


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## 1018 (Mar 13, 2008)

artisanstone said:


> I started working on jobsites at fourteen.:thumbsup:



Same here, but now a days I can't find a kid who actually wants to work, much less one that enjoys it. So when I came across this one I said I'd try to do as much as I can to help him out.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

mdshunk said:


> You are soooooo wrong about that. Prove it! There are definitely tasks that a child under 18 may not do on a construction site, and there are definitely tools that a child under 18 may not operate. You are sorely mistaken that a person under 18 may not be employed in construction, however. Way, way, way wrong.


pick a state and I will attempt to prove one of us wrong.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

nap said:


> pick a state and I will attempt to prove one of us wrong.


Okay, PA. I have in my hand a list right from my state with minimum ages to operate many construction site tools. Many of them as low as 14.


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

artisanstone said:


> I started working on jobsites at fourteen.:thumbsup:


Same here


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

California here...under 18 but over 16

Parents must sign a release or acknowledgement, maximum 16 hrs per week (I'm not sure about summer time) plus common sense on what they can do and operate


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

penn statutes


*



§ 11.38. Electrical work. Employment of minors under 18 years of age at installing and removing electric light and power meters, and doing inside wiring is prohibited, except for apprentices, student learners and graduates of an approved vocational, technical or industrial education curriculum which prepared them for employment in the specific occupation, and minors between the ages of 16 and 18 who are acting as assistants to trained electricians or electrical engineers over 21 years of age. This exception however, only applies to work on voltages up to and including 220 volts. 

Click to expand...

you have me on this one:





§ 11.41a. Highways. Minors under 16 years of age are permitted to work on sections of the highways that are not open to the public for vehicular travel.

Click to expand...





§ 11.63. Roofing operations. Employment of minors under 18 years of age in all occupations in roofing operations is prohibited, except for apprentices, student learners and graduates of an approved vocational, technical or industrial education curriculum which prepared them for employment in the specific occupation.

Click to expand...





§ 11.64. Wrecking and demolition. Employment of minors under 18 years of age in all occupations in wrecking and demolition is prohibited.

Click to expand...





§ 11.66. Excavating operations. 
Employment of minors under 18 years of age in any of the following occupations involving excavating operations is prohibited except for apprentices, student learners and graduates of an approved vocational, technical or industrial education curriculum which prepared them for employment in the specific occupation: 
(1) Excavating, working in or backfilling trenches except for manually excavating or manually backfilling trenches that do not exceed 4 feet in depth at any point or working in trenches that do not exceed 4 feet in depth at any point. 
(2) Excavating for buildings or other structures or working in such excavations, except for manually excavating to a depth not exceeding 4 feet below any ground surface adjoining the excavation, working in an excavation not exceeding such depth, or working in an excavation where the side walls are shored or sloped to the angle of repose. 
(3) Working within tunnels prior to the completion of all driving and shoring operations. (4) Working within shafts prior to the completion of all sinking and shoring operations.

Click to expand...

limited allowance so you get this one





§ 11.77. Heavy work in the building trades. 
The term "heavy work in building trades'' as used in section 5 of the act (43 P. S. § 44) includes the following: 
 (1) Carrying or handling of heavy lumber. 
 (2) Hod carrying. 
 (3) Concrete mixing and mortar mixing by hand. 
 (4) Wheeling sand, cement, lime, mortar, gravel, mixed concrete or other similar materials. 
 (5) Digging or removing any heavy stones or rock. 
 (6) Pile-driving by hand.  (7) Handling or carrying any heavy material, such as pipe, sanitary and heating fixtures

Click to expand...

. 

that one is the great limiter.





§ 11.31. Employment of minors on outside electrical wiring. Employment of minors under 18 years of age on outside electrical wiring is prohibited, except for apprentices, student learners, and graduates of an approved vocational, technical, or industrial education curriculum which prepared them for employment in the specific occupation.

Click to expand...

 




§ 11.46. Woodworking machinery. 
(a) Employment of minors under 18 years of age on power-driven woodworking machinery is prohibited except for apprentices, student learners and graduates of an approved vocational, technical or industrial education curriculum which prepared them for employment in the specific occupation. 
Employment on power-driven woodworking machinery includes the following: 
(1) The occupation of operating power-driven woodworking machines, including supervising or controlling the operation of such machines, feeding material into such machines and helping the operator to feed material into such machines but not including the placing of material on a moving chain or in a hopper or slide for automatic feeding. 
 (2) The occupations of setting up, adjusting, repairing, oiling or cleaning power-driven woodworking machines. 
 (3) The operations of off-bearing from circular saws and from guillotine-action veneer clippers. 
(b) The term "power-driven woodworking machines'' shall mean all fixed or portable machines or tools driven by power and used or designed for cutting, shaping, forming, surfacing, nailing, stapling, wire stitching, fastening or otherwise assembling, pressing or printing wood or veneer. 
(c) The term "off-bearing'' shall mean the removal of material or refuse directly from a saw table or from the point of operation. Operations not considered as off-bearing within the intent of this section include the following: 
(1) The removal of material or refuse from a circular saw or guillotine-action veneer clipper where the material or refuse has been conveyed away from the saw table or point of operation by a gravity chute or by some mechanical means such as a moving belt or expulsion roller. 
(2) The following operations when they do not involve the removal of material or refuse 
directly from a saw table or from a point of operation: 
(i) The carrying, moving or transporting of materials from one machine to another or from one part of a plant to another. 
(ii) The piling, stacking or arranging of materials for feeding into a machine by another person. (iii) The sorting, tying, bundling or loading of materials.

Click to expand...

this is not a complete list.

I'll give it to you but the limitations are so great that what can be performed by somebody under 18 is so limited it is hardly worth the effort. I will still stand by the insurance situation and the liability situation. A minor cannot waive their rights or enter into contracts in most circumstances so a injury to a minor can still be more than you want to take on.


 
 

*


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

According to the Indiana Department of Labor:
"Child labor laws prohibit workers aged 14, 15 from working in construction, except when performing office work away from the construction site.
Other laws that apply to all workers under age 18 prohibit several tasks associated with construction, for instance occupations in excavation, roofing, 
wrecking, demolition and ship breaking operations. For a complete list of 
prohibited occupations please contact the U.S. Department of Labor."

For some reason I cannot copy 
and paste the document here.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

california

<B>


> *Minors under 18 *MAY NOT _be employed or permitted to work _in the following occupations declared hazardous in federal regulation and adopted by inclusion by the state of California [LC 1294.1; 29 CFR 570 Subpart E]:
> • Occupations in or about plants or establishments manufacturing or storing explosives or articles containing explosive components, including, for example, small-arms ammunition [29 CFR 570.51 (H.O. 1)];
> *• Occupations of motor vehicle driver and outside helper* [29 CFR 570.52 (H.O. 2)] (See Chapter 7 of this digest.);
> • Coal mine occupations [29 CFR 570.53 (H.O. 3)];
> ...


</B>


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

the list I posted for Cali is the federal rules which apparently are what Indiana also observes.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Oh, and they still have to get a work permit 
under 18.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

A minor can still help frame a house, as long as he's not the cut man.


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

It's obviously different these days. But you're own kid or from a friend, we all do it. It's not like exploitation, it's the opposite. Value of a hard days work kinda thing.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

here is a more direct copy of the fed rules:



> 29 CFR 570.120 - Eighteen-year minimum.
> 
> 
> *Section Number:* 570.120
> ...


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

mdshunk said:


> A minor can still help frame a house, as long as he's not the cut man.





> § 11.77. Heavy work in the building trades.
> The term "heavy work in building trades'' as used in section 5 of the act (43 P. S. § 44) includes the following:
> *(1) Carrying or handling of heavy lumber.*
> (2) Hod carrying.
> ...


he can nail


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

nap said:


> he can nail


A 2x4 is not heavy.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

mdshunk said:


> A 2x4 is not heavy.


you seem to be savvy enough and experienced enough to have dealt with the administrative duties in a company. If so, you should understand that interpretation of the laws is not a definate and clear cut situtation. The powers that be often have different interpretations from year to year or simply different than what a layman would expect them to be.

An example of interpretations of the law;

in Indiana, which I posted most of the germane points of the labor laws, does not allow a minor to operate a power saw, correct? IOSHA has made a ruling that not only can they not operate a power saw, they cannot be in the same area as a power saw when it is operating. This is in response to an Amish group arguing that;

1; their minors should be allowed to use the equipment due to the fact they are trained on them.

2. when that failed, they agreed to not allow the minors to operate the tools but felt that hodding wood or cleaning up and such is still alllowed and acted as such. IOSHA came back and said that as long as those saws are running, minors were not allowed in the same work area.

So, plain and simple, whatever the rules say and how we interpret them is irrelevent (this did go beyond a simple IOSHA said ruling). They are often enforced in ways that do not even appear to be possible when simply reading them. Ultimately, most of the child labor laws are prefaced with verbiage that states that these rules are enacted to maintain a safe and healthy work environment for our children. That statement allows them to interpret those rules in a variety of ways but ultimately, if an action or area of work is deemed to be unhealthy for a minor, that one section alone can be utilized to prevent most any action the government desires.


The laws are simply a bunch of words. We have spent over 200 years asking the SCOTUS to interpret laws that were written over 200 years ago. We continue to make laws and ask about them as well.

In law, there is always the arguement: is the letter of the law most important or the spirit of the law. Here, the letter of the law seems to allow an action. The spirit of the law doesn;t. Which wins? How much money do you have?


How a law is interpreted and applied can be very different than what that bunch of words appear to infer.


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## pscinteriors (May 18, 2008)

*me too*



artisanstone said:


> I started working on jobsites at fourteen.:thumbsup:


Ive been working construction since i was 14 working as a Gopher on a roofing crew...was only summer job at first...Full time construction by 16...Thats how I have 17 years construction experiance at 31 yrs old(sometimes people ask)


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## trinitybrown (Dec 1, 2008)

You should not employ underage workers as it is against law and cause harm to your business in future


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Hmmm, an old post :whistling. What the hell, i have hired under age kids for laborer's including my son and step-son. I find that if they are someone elses kid they will hustle and sometimes listen, but your own kids might better stay home. For me i let them run rakes, shovels, paint brush/roller, some ladders, pressure washer, lawn mowers, weed eaters, tampers, some drills,etc. No saws, no auto's, no air nailers, no equipment. It all depends on whether they have any common sense or not, start them out with small tasks/tools and let them work their way up to the bigger task/tool. As far as anything electrical they do nothing unless it involves a shovel and with me watching over their shoulder. I tend to work alone when wiring so it is my eyes and hands on the job. But for other jobs where i need a grunt then i hire a kid.


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## thesidingpro (Jun 7, 2007)

When I was 15 1/2 I started co-oping through the vocational school.

I framed and the first day the boss had me laying black felt on a 12 pitch.


I'd say it's a good idea to keep them on the ground and away from power tools.


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## forsmant (Dec 12, 2008)

I started siding houses when I was 15. Wasn't allowed to cut only hammer my thumbs.


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## wazez (Oct 25, 2008)

If I'm 16 I may drive a 4 thousand pound hunk of metal down the highway and put dozens of other people in danger but no power tools as I might hurt myself? You can thank our wonderful goverment for !
Oh yeah I was finishing joints for dad before I went to school.


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

....whoops, looks like I broke every rule in there....I worked for an excavating company at 14....I did everything from the three point stance, driving mason dumps around the job site, loading trucks with loaders and back-hoes, I brush hogged, chainsaws and logging...jack hammering in 100 degree summer heat all day...up in the bucket of a machine limbing trees, digging graves did lots of mixing by hand and machine....climbed down into septic tanks...worked around power lines, 

almost got my head taken off once by a tracked hoe rotating to dump a load while digging a septic bed....I was running to get the laser from the truck...it was raining...i went to stop...I slid instead...the operator was already swinging...3 foot bucket stopped about one foot from my head......the list goes on....I am still here and alive....


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Federal OSHA specifically prohibits operation of forklifts by anyone under 18, with the exception in the agriculture industry.
http://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib093003.html

In general, NIOSH considers them high risk. 
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/youth/
If they get hurt, so does your company's wallet.

Oops... old old thread. was searching and came across


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

most high schools have work/study programs,they can tell you what they can or cannot do


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

I rarely hire guys under 21 when I'm framing. Most don't seem to have enough common sense to work safely.


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## KellyD&B (May 4, 2009)

I started working in construction when I was 16. I just needed a job and a friends dad offered me some work as his helper. I loved it. I had no idea I wanted to do this as a career. I would take on a teenager as a helper if it came up and I saw that he was interested in learning a trade. I was always thankful to my friends Dad and now 12 years later I still work with him now and then. I dont think I would hire a teenager as a carpenter though. They just dont have the experience.


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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

KIDS ON CONSTRUCTION SITES = HELL NO!!!!

I was P.M. on a 2500 sq ft garage conversion and the electrician had a 16 yr old H.S. kid on a work program as his helper. (Anyone who uses a framing nailer will relate) There was a stray nail that bounced along the floor near the kid (Who was sitting on top of an 8' tall ladder) nail came from about 50 feet away and he went crying to the electrician saying that the guys were shooting nails at him. I knew nothing about it other than my Electricians had left about 45 minutes after arriving and it looked like they did all the work I wanted. Setting boxes without running wires.

I was getting tore a new B-hole by the boss the following Monday and had to stop him to ask what the heck he was talking about. Said the kid was making a big stink about it at work and at school. I told the boss I didn't want HILL ELECTRIC on any more of my projects! After that incident, none of the other PM's wanted them either.

A stray nail to a framing carpenter is like a plumber seeing a drip or an electrician seeing a spark.

NO KIDS ON THE JOB NO WAY NO HOW!!!

FYI: I started remodelling at 17 and by 19 was managing men twice my age.
PM=Project Manager
MZ-HANDYMAN


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I have never hired anyone under age 18. I have however hired many who were 18 to 21. You generally have to take it slow and get a feel for what they can do and when. Lots of cleanup, hanger nailing,lumber toting,etc. I started working as an apprentice at 18 myself so I think it depends on the individual. Of course I also had 2 years in High school vocational program (whatever thats worth) and would frequently run a framing crew when I was 20 years old. Of course we were building some real basic condos then which didn't require a whole lot of skill.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

> 2. when that failed, they agreed to not allow the minors to operate the tools but felt that hodding wood or cleaning up and such is still alllowed and acted as such. IOSHA came back and said that as long as those saws are running, minors were not allowed in the *same work area*.


Jumping in kind of late here and the is sort of a rhetorical question...not aimed at anyone, really, but....


Define "same work area"

A 10ft radius around the saw? 20 ft? Anywhere on the construction lot? Same block? Same town?  ok the last one is kind of silly, but you get what I'm saying.

Yes the people who make the laws are normally the farthest thing from common sense, but I think (even at the extreme) if the underage worker is outside the "sawdust spray" area, it'd be fine.

Of course that's JMO


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

i gotta get me a work permit:thumbup:


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## fireguy (Oct 29, 2006)

artisanstone said:


> I started working on jobsites at fourteen.:thumbsup:


 
12, working for Dad on spec houses. Mostly I looked for Dad's hammer, tape or saw. But, I did everything except electrical. One day I stuck my right thumb in the the table saw. No first aid stuff on the job site. I put on my motorcycle helmet, gloves and went home. After I bandaged myself, I went back to work. Luckey I was left-handed, so I could keep my right hand under the dining table until it mostly healed up. I still have lots of respect for a table saw.


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