# Permit or not?



## Windy City (Jul 24, 2011)

Where do you draw the line in regard to getting a permit for a remodel job? Gut rehab of a half bath? Full kitchen redo? Some jobs are going to be obvious with an addition or major rehab of course. What about smaller jobs. 

Not trying to skirt the law obviously but sometimes a permit can be...overkill. What do you think? Thanks!


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Anytime your azz could be on the line:thumbsup:

That's pretty much every morning you get up.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Permits and inspections are a hassle, no doubt about it. But if you want to be completely legal *and* be able to go to court if things go sour, what other option do you have?


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

It's up to you, look at it on a case by case. On smaller jobs, sometimes I have a hard time justifying paying the government three hundred dollars for permits when all they are going to do is walk in and make sure the insulation isn't wet. I especially have a hard time when I walk into the building department and they have an atrium covered with marble. Do they really need my permit money when they are already sucking up our tax money on this crap we don't need? But make sure you and the homeowner both understand the risks if you decide to skimp on permits. Because there are lots of legal risks involved.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

A family member of ours works in the county permit office and these people dodge the permits more than anyone. he's currently building a double garage on his house. not one permit has been pulled and his response is its a waste of money. again this is coming from a guy who works in the permit office. yet you can go in his office and they all tell you that permits must be pulled:blink: one woman in there told me i didn't have a finished basement in my house yet i did and it had been that way for over 15 years she said that they would have to send someone around to check it out. later on that day he heard i had been in and called me and said don't let them in your house to inspect the basement. he said they have no right by law to even step foot on your property without you giving the say so. I never did let them check it and never heard anything back! 

But again this is on my own property. i wouldnt even think about not pulling one for a customer though even though they are a waste of time in my eyes.


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## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

that all varies by state. here in new jersey alot of municipalities now issue certificates of continued occupancy. so when you go sell your house. the inspector comes out to check if any work was done without permits. and if they find any. they will perform closed wall inspections. hopefully everything looks good. otherwise they have the right to make you open up walls. for what its worth. its not worth doin the jobs without permits. it could cause you more grief down the road. especialy if you plan to stay in business.


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

I have had a few clients that said they wanted to save money & bypass the permit. It's when I tell them that "You can make that decision as long as you understand that this is your property not mine & if YOU get caught YOU will be held responsible." Thats usually all it takes to change their mind:no::no:
Most HO think that if they don't have a permit & something goes wrong the contractor will be held 100% liable, not true.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Every areas different, When in California they required a permit to change a dishwasher or a toilet, made me laugh, now in Ontario I did a complete bath renovation once, new everything....no permit required all as I was doing was changing fixtures, not running new pipes...no structural work, everything was cosmetic


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I apply for permits for almost everything. I apply for so many that the people in each city, county, and township know me. In my area permits are not necessary for cosmetic work but I still apply. Often times they laugh and say," you don't need a permit for that" but hey that's their call I tried. I just don't see the point of not complying to the law. It costs money, but not my money, and it adds to the legitimacy of your work. Nothing better than a little CYA in my book. Most of our customers appreciatte our willingness to handle the permit and inspection process for them.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

If the AHJ is somewhat organized, they will have some type of guidelines available for what they expect and what items might be exempt. Here's an example of a town that has it's act together in which I do a lot of work without problems.

http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/BuildingPermitBrochure08-09.pdf

For many towns, a phone call to the building department will yield many answers without an interrogation. I have never had them ask for an address or pry for information so they can "bust you later".

Once you know if the job is either exempt of needs a permit, it's on your shoulders should you decide to gamble that they won't catch you. I wouldn't recommend it though.


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## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

i'm also a licensed building inspector and plumbing inspector in new jersey and we use the uniform construction code here. it pretty much spells out exactly what you need permits and dont need here. pretty much anything thats "ordinary maintenance" doesnt require one. or anytime you disturb less then 25% of the covered area. 
so technically you could do your roof in 4 stages and not need a permit.


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Often times they laugh and say," you don't need a permit for that" but hey that's their call I tried. I just don't see the point of not complying to the law. It costs money, but not my money, and it adds to the legitimacy of your work.


That's funny because I've run into the same problem. I've had to beg at times to issue me a permit. Why they don't want to- because I'm not doing anything structural or adding sq footage. Yet the plumber and electrician have to pull a permit on that job. kind of weird but not really. 

I asked for a drywall screw inspection a couple months ago. They asked how much drywall are you putting up. I say, about six sheets and fifty patches. "Don't worry about it"


I'm dealing with a customer on and off, she had some work done a couple years ago and always complains about the building dept to me. How they rip you off and the rules are so stupid.

While listening to her I can see between the lines. Pretty much what happened is a contractor installed a dormer on the roof. The building dept inspected and wanted to know why the load wasn't carried to the foundation. Oops.... The contractor and engineer screwed up and blamed it on the building dept "they were making things difficult" He then charged her more to tear out drywall and post down. The whole while blaming it on the building dept. I think it's kind of funny, cause the guy is known as a clown around town.

Another gov't job I'm looking at, I asked about permits and codes and what not, well sure enough they weren't too interested in going by the book which was kind of funny, but then again the project is fixing a glorfied shed, but still there is rules aint' there?

Permits are funny, I like them though makes me feel like a legit contractor.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

> Where do you draw the line in regard to getting a permit for a remodel job?


Wherever the local ordinances say we need to.


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## Windy City (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks for all the great replies! In general its much better to just CYA and go a little overboard if you have to. Plus it seems to go along way in the clients eyes.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Are you aware of the rules in the building code? They list everything that is exempt from permits.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Before you do it, stop by and ask you need a permit or you don't...this way you covered. 

For the most part if you open less then 25% of the wall and patch with the same, you don't need a permit. If you moving/re-routing electrical, plumbing, opening, removing a wall or a soffit, etc you need a permit. Direct replacement, you don't need a permit.


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## A.T.H.I. (Feb 8, 2008)

greg24k said:


> Before you do it, stop by and ask you need a permit or you don't...this way you covered.
> 
> For the most part if you open less then 25% of the wall and patch with the same, you don't need a permit. If you moving/re-routing electrical, plumbing, opening, removing a wall or a soffit, etc you need a permit. Direct replacement, you don't need a permit.


That's pretty much the way it is here. If it's a repair ie. you have 10 feet of damaged pipe and you replace that section then that would be ok but if you change the direction of that pipe then it would be considered new construction and a permit would be required.

Basically if you take something out and update it with something in the exact same place then it's a repair or upgrade. Some exceptions to that rule will require a permit/inspection like taking an old furnance out and putting a new one in it's place. 

To be safe if you don't know call your building department and ask. When I work out of town they don't laugh when I call them. Just because your a pro doesn't mean you are going to know all the bylaws and permit requirements in every little town you work in. Even if you do work in the same town as years go by laws and bylaws will change it's best to ask then to have to explain later.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Here the rule of thumb for remodeling is if you are altering the framing you need a permit. A full gut remodel would trigger a permit even w/o framing changes. When in doubt, ask the AHJ. 

The city will sell you a repair permit for situations that don't require a building permit @ $100 if you want, but it's not required. 

One thing that confuses me around here is decks. The city requires a permit because it's attached to the house. The county says no permit unless you put a roof over it. With all the deck collapses in the news you'd think they'd insist.

When you're hired out it's foolish to go without a permit and wasteful to get one not required, IMO. I'd go without at home unless I was doing something like an addition.

Good Luck
Dave


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

things are different up here in the great white north... or great wet i should say..

for carpentry related we need permits for additions, decks, new construction, fences building a shed or garage or $5000 in structural alterations. 

other trades need them when it involves installing new lines for power, water etc.. simple repairs or upgrading existing fixtures are nothing more than "repairs

i cover my ass by not getting permits on side jobs by only doing interior trim upgrades.. only thing in code about trim is that it must not be able to self-combust. plus the odd deck repair


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## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

Since I know most of the inspectors around here I ask first. At least if one of the neighbors calls in and complains they have a heads up.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Windy City said:


> Where do you draw the line in regard to getting a permit for a remodel job? Gut rehab of a half bath? Full kitchen redo? Some jobs are going to be obvious with an addition or major rehab of course. What about smaller jobs.
> 
> Not trying to skirt the law obviously but sometimes a permit can be...overkill. What do you think? Thanks!




Well WC,

For smaller jobs in Chicago it all depends who it is, where it is, what it is & if you can get away without it.:laughing:

All the Union boys doing "side jobs" ain't pulling permits 

Nor are the illegals.

Nor are all the new "handymen" that this terrible economy has produced 

Like it or not, it's the "Chicago Way":whistling


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## A.T.H.I. (Feb 8, 2008)

woodworkbykirk said:


> things are different up here in the great white north... or great wet i should say..
> 
> for carpentry related we need permits for additions, decks, new construction, fences building a shed or garage or $5000 in structural alterations.
> 
> ...


Some stuff is tricky around here for decks, you need a permit and 2 inspections and if you attach it to a house it's considered an addition. If the deck floor is under 16" in height you don't need a permit. Sheds you don't need a permit unless it's over 110 square feet.

It's always best to ask especially if you haven't done a certain job for a few years or are working in a different city as the requirements will vary and change often.


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## abacab (Sep 16, 2009)

I do whole house remodels, and they tell me that as long as I don't open anything up to the stud cavities, I don't need a permit. Unfortunately, there is almost always something that needs to be opened up. If all I was doing was replacing all light and plumbing fixtures, painting and floor covering, then I don't need one. I always call anyway.


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

I would say if you are re-arranging the floorplan, plumbing lines, electrical, anything structural, you need a permit. New tile floor, bathtub, shower, and a paintjob, no way.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

Here in metro Detroit things vary twp to twp. I replaced a bunch of LP lap siding on a condo for a plan reviewer who lives in a different twp than where he works and he said I needed a permit. I told him I didn't think so because I was not replacing any sheathing. I called the building official where he lived told him what I was doing and he said nope no permit. These towns are only 5 minutes apart. 

I agree with my buddy from Chicago that in remodeling sometimes the permit just isn't going to happen. These roofing inspections are starting to drive me nuts here. One township comes out to look at the deck before your recover the roof. So if you are doing the upper one day and the lower the next you have to call him, wait till he gets there, gets out of the car, looks up at the deck from below and says ok have fun

I redid a shower for the Building Official of a prominent town around here and he said no permit.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

This is the internet and as such there are too many eyes and no way to control who sees what you say. For that reason, I always comply with local codes and ordinances and pull permits for all jobs when required.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I never post in this section but noticed the headline.

Follow the law, you will never get in trouble, it's professional, the owners have to pay for it, and you have no hard feelings.

Ignore the law, you can get in trouble, it's hackish, YOU end up paying for it, and everybody ends up having hard feeling towards you and your company.

Piss an inspector off and they will never forget!!!

Mike


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> I never post in this section but noticed the headline.
> 
> Follow the law, you will never get in trouble, it's professional, the owners have to pay for it, and you have no hard feelings.
> 
> ...


Piss on an inspector and none of them forget about it! :laughing:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Piss on an inspector and none of them forget about it! :laughing:


Had to fix that for ya:thumbsup:

However, it is a very true statement.:thumbsup:


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## EPAYNE (Jul 21, 2011)

I call the inspector when ever in doubt. Most times I tell them whats going on, and they make a decision. Some municipalities want a permit for everything over $400 so I weigh out the worst case scenario and decide if I should pull a permit or not. Did a half bath last week, no structure changes, inspector took my name and the address of the project and gave the go ahead without a permit. I guess it depends on your local inspectors. I work in five municipalities regularly, one wants wants a permit for everything, the other could care less as long as the structure isn't changing. The others are somewhere in the middle.


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