# new GFI plug for old bathroom



## Kingfisher (Mar 18, 2007)

Need to add a GFI in a bathroom. This is my own home and I want to make sure its right. Have a recp. on the other side of the wall to take a feed from but it does not have a ground. The whole house has old two prong recp. built in 1943. I have run all new wiring in the kitchen but can not get to this location. I want to run a ground wire to the 1/2" gav. water pipe under the sink for the GFI. Will this work or just keep using the little rec on the orignal light fixture? Thanks


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I hope you'll consider scrapping this idea of using a ground wire from a copper (errr, galvanized) water pipe. Will it work? Sure it'll work. But it's clearly not the right way to do this job.

Do it the right way and run a 20 amp dedicated circuit and install a fancy new GFCI receptacle.

Good luck.


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## Jim M (Jun 7, 2007)

GFI receptacles will work without a ground wire.

Perhaps you could fish a new wire next to the plumbing stack to get to your panel? Maybe sacrifice a corner of a closet to run your wire?


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## Kingfisher (Mar 18, 2007)

I would love to run a new line but there is no attic access and the walls are soild concrete. I'll have a hard enough time the way I described. This will be its own fancy new GFI the feed recp is not GFI. So it will work and is the safe way to do it?


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## te12c02w (Jun 1, 2007)

It will work and it will be safe if done properly, but it won't be code compliant. Bathroom receptacles must have a dedicated circuit.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Wow. So much misinformation.

Grounding to a water pipe:
- It MAY work. It MAY be very dangerous. It will NOT be legal or safe. 

Extending an ungrounded circuit:
- Illegal and NOT a smart thing to do.

Bathrooms receptacles DO NOT need to be dedicated, in general. It IS advised to keep them separate though.


The safest and easiest thing I can see you doing is to install the GFI at the existing receptacle and run to the new bathroom receptacle. This way you are GFI protecting the ungrounded circuit before you extend it.
Keep in mind, this is still NOT code legal. You cannot share a bath receptacle with any other rooms. 
I (almost) never give out advice that is not code legal. It goes against everything I believe in. That said, I do think doing it as I described is FAR safer than continuing to use the little receptacle built into an old light fixture.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

You're the Kingfisher, not the Queenfisher or Princessfisher. It doesn't matter to the Kingfisher if it's difficult. You want POWER!, don't you? It doesn't matter to the Kingfisher if it takes a sledgehammer or backhoe. Get the job done & let the decorator take care of the aftermath.

Run a dedicated 20-amp circuit from your service to your new 20-amp GFCI. If the Kingfisher can't handle it, hire an electrical contractor.

Dave


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> I (almost) never give out advice that is not code legal. It goes against everything I believe in.


Ok....Who are you and what have you done with Pete? :thumbup:


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

> Extending an ungrounded circuit:
> - Illegal and NOT a smart thing to do.


But the circuit IS grounded through the grounded (neutral) conductor.


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## DBack Elec (Nov 30, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> But the circuit IS grounded through the grounded (neutral) conductor.


 Your right Speedy, so much misinformation.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

The circuit is grounded, not bonded.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Mag, I'd quit while you still can. Not to sound mean but you are WAY off base here.

By "ungrounded" I mean no ground is run with the circuit conductors.
The circuit is ABSOLUTELY NOT "grounded" through the grounded conductor. All you are doing is creating confusing with statements like these.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Ungrounded to me means a negatively charged "hot" conductor. If a ground is missing, it is lacking an equipment grounding conductor (EGC). As previously stated, a GFCI receptacle will trip without an EGC through the grounded conductor.

Spare me the I don't mean to sound mean crap. You started this when you decided to chime in with "wow, so much misinformation" when in fact accurate information was given up to that point. Maybe you ought to step back for a minute and realize you're not the only electrician participating in this forum.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Listen junior, I never implied that I was the only one here. Nice try though. 
Your statements about grounded, grounding, ungrounded, etc, have only served to confuse things, and I see I am not the only one with this opinion.

NO ONE was talking about the neutral (grounded conductor). 
NO ONE was questioning whether a GFI would work without a groundING conductor.

Saying that running an EQUIPMENT GROUND wire to a nearby water pipe will work and be safe is nothing short of STUPID! Regardless of the little code disclaimer.



> I hope you'll consider scrapping this idea of using a ground wire from a copper (errr, galvanized) water pipe. Will it work? Sure it'll work.





> It will work and it will be safe if done properly, but it won't be code compliant.





> Bathroom receptacles must have a dedicated circuit.





> But the circuit IS grounded through the grounded (neutral) conductor.





> The circuit is grounded, not bonded.


"Accurate information" huh?

And now I couldn't care less if I sound mean.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

How does the wiring get to the original light fixture and it's receptacle? Can you fish a new three wire circuit in that way?


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

As much as it pains me to admit it, I'm with Speedy on this issue. Your use of electrical terminology and understanding of code safety issues are confusing. I'm not going to explain a pirated ground on an open forum. The grounded conductor is only connected to the equipment grounding conductor in the service where they're bonded. You can't bond them beyond the service. Running a wire from an outlet to a nearby water copper water pipe borders on criminal IMO. What do you think will happen when there's a ground fault in that outlet and a plumber cuts into that copper water pipe?

Dave


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## Kingfisher (Mar 18, 2007)

Tiger thats why I posted, to get the answer. I see its a hot button now sorry. Don't you have the ground fault issue in all old homes where the service is ground to the plumbing? Sorry if the terms are off. I thought everyone would know what I was talking about in an old home without grounds and only two condutor wire, a hot and a neutral. The light is fed the same by a switch leg and the plug only works when the light is on. (No, I don't let any one use this for a hair dryer) And yes I am looking for an easy out, but if its not safe I will just let it be as is.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

Kingfisher said:


> Tiger thats why I posted, to get the answer. I see its a hot button now sorry. Don't you have the ground fault issue in all old homes where the service is ground to the plumbing? Sorry if the terms are off. I thought everyone would know what I was talking about in an old home without grounds and only two condutor wire, a hot and a neutral. The light is fed the same by a switch leg and the plug only works when the light is on. (No, I don't let any one use this for a hair dryer) And yes I am looking for an easy out, but if its not safe I will just let it be as is.


No problem with asking a hot button question. Those get kind of fun. And a lot of us work on old houses with two wire circuits. None if us (I think) would run a ground wire to a water pipe or ground rod except at the place where we need to do that. Never from a receptacle. A GFCI receptacle can be installed in place of a two wire receptacle and no ground is required. But that is a replacement, not a new installation of one. The best answer you got was from Petey. You have a tough situation, no doubt.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

Kingfisher, I wasn't talking about you. Nobody expects a non-EC to know the correct terminology. 

For safety, the ground wire (or metal conduit or metal casing) is kept separate/insulated from the circuit wires until they get back to the electrical service. For a duplex receptacle without a ground wire, metal conduit, or metal casing, a two wire circuit with no ground can be made safe with the installation of a GFCI outlet. If there isn't an existing outlet, the addition of an outlet would probably require the addition of a 20-amp circuit. In Illinois, only the AHJ can answer that. IMO the circuit is required.

Dave


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## Kingfisher (Mar 18, 2007)

Thanks for all the input guys, from what I see I'll just let it go until the bath is gutted in about 2 years then do it right with a new circuit. Thanks again.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

What if the Kingfisher's wire is in the greenfield with the bond strip? :innocent:
(Should be little emoticon with little guy stirring a pot)


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