# Schluter Innovation course



## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

I took the plunge and flew down to South Carolina this past week for the Schluter coarse. First off, i want to say that the company is absolute class the way they treated us... second, i met alot of great tile setters from all over this great country that were all there to up their game.

The first day we spent at TCNA and learned a great deal about the physics involved with the making, setting, and behavior of tile on it's substrate. It's funny how much i though i knew prior to actually learning from a book!!! we also got to take a quick tour of the facility and see how many of the tests are done. very interesting place:thumbsup:

the last 2 days were spent at CTEF watching and doing hands on floor, wall, and shower moch-up's. we got to install Ditra, Kerdi board, Kerdi shower kits, and Kerdi fabric as well as use the different inside and outside profiles available. I am glad the learning curve was on their dime because it was not as easy as it looks the first time!

i also learned some technique from some Boston wet setting mud guys, they were true setters from California, they really made my life easier with a few simple tricks of the trade.

4 days is alot of time to take out of your business, but anyone interested in these products or just want to learn more, i highly recommend it! if nothing more, you will walk away with a copy of the TCNA handbook and be versed in quite a few pages of it. 

Looks like my area of northern NJ is a wide open market for vapor managed showers...


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## goneelkn (Jan 9, 2010)

Pretty ironic, they push TCNA, but then tell you to disregard parts of it. But i do agree, it's great learning.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

I have built many wonderful bathrooms with both Kerdi and Ditra. The efforts you took to raise your game and your understanding of this one product will serve you very well in the coming years.

Two things to consider before you race off and forget everything else that you have already learned is you need to work out your setting materials. Both for installing the product and the tile.

I'm sure they taught you to mix up a loose mix to install your Ditra or Kerdi. Problem # 1.

Which thin-set company will allow you to add extra water to their recommended ratio? I have not found one willing to send me an email saying it is OK to do this. Check into this first.

I have read many setters recommendations to over water or make a soupy mix. Here in Vancouver I have watched guys pour out their thin set for Ditra. Over watering thin-set weakens it. Fact.

Now in regards to steam showers Kerdi as we know it here is not even rated for steamers in Europe - there is a Kerdi DS that is installed differently than Kerdi here. To build a proper steam shower look for Perm ratings under 0.15 not 1.0 - Noble Seal TS is an excellent choice.

The restrictions on thin sets is the nail in the coffin for me with Schluter's products but I heard the other day they are trying to switch back to allowing them. You might want to wait till this happens before using their stuff. 

If they told you in class it is is OK to use modified's then check this out with Schluter Head Office because every stick of literature they have says not to. They go as far to even write into their instruction s regardless of what you hear the printed instructions are the ones to be followed. I wonder why they include this text in their handbooks?

Schluter does put on a good show and always excellent food. They have a good reason to do this for you. They want your business. All of it. But so does Mapei, Noble, Custom and the rest. Remember you are the customer - you call the shots.

Call up your rep and ask for a letter saying it is OK to overwater the thiset for installing his product. Ask for a letter saying it is OK to use modified thin sets. Ask for an installer card that says you took the workshop. Get it all on Letter Head.

If you can not get these things from your local rep - Ask yourself Why?

JW


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> I have built many wonderful bathrooms with both Kerdi and Ditra. The efforts you took to raise your game and your understanding of this one product will serve you very well in the coming years.
> 
> Two things to consider before you race off and forget everything else that you have already learned is you need to work out your setting materials. Both for installing the product and the tile.
> 
> ...


john,

you bring up some great questions, i will look for answers...

with regards to an overwatered soupy mix, we did not have that on our training. it was a bit looser than a normal, but not runny or soupy as you describe. maybe they have changed? idk, but i am glad i had a chance to play around on their dime to get my install right.

with the perm rating, i thought my rep had said it was a .5... even if it is .75 it still falls within the guide lines of 1.0 for north America.

the talks of mod. vs un-mod were quite interesting from the history of the first dry set morter and why it is called dry set to the additions of polymers and latex and the reasoning and physics behind it. i'm a bit nerdy with learning how stuff works and why/ what the purpose is. I agree with their reasoning behind using un-modified thinsets and i haven't heard of any bond issues people might have googling the subject.... it appears to work.

i hope to continue my education with mapei and possibly laticrete. i would also like to take a noble class if they have one... who knows, maybe they will convert me aswell:laughing: 

at this point, i would feel confident installing Kerdi as they have taught me how they want their product installed. when i learn that from the other manufactures, i will confidently work with their products aswell.


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> I have built many wonderful bathrooms with both Kerdi and Ditra. The efforts you took to raise your game and your understanding of this one product will serve you very well in the coming years.
> 
> Two things to consider before you race off and forget everything else that you have already learned is you need to work out your setting materials. Both for installing the product and the tile.
> 
> ...


Ardex FB-9L is a pourable thinset. You don't need to overwater, it is pourable when mixed according to directions. It is perfect for installing Ditra.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

world llc said:


> ...with the perm rating, i thought my rep had said it was a .5... even if it is .75 it still falls within the guide lines of 1.0 for north America...


Ask yourself why in the country of origin (Germany) Kerdi DS is used in steam showers and not Kerdi.

Perm ratings overseas are looking for ratings around 0.15 not 1.0.

Kerdi is rated at .75

Some random facts. Noble Seal TS is 30mil. Kerdi 8mil.

Red Guard is allowed in steam showers at 45mil.

Kerdi is roughly 1/5 the thickness of Noble Seal TS or Red Guard - you do the math. Do you really think it is the best product for a steam shower?

I like the pourable thin set. That makes way more sense than overwatering regular thin set.

I could only imagine the strength difference between that product and watered down Versabond for example.

I checked on the over water recommendation I read online often with my local Mapei rep and he said not to. It weakens the thin set. That Ardex stuff looks good and I have been seeing more and more of it around Vancouver.

Great tip.

JW


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

Ardex makes some of the best mortars in the industry.

Another advantage of the FB-9L is, it's groutable in six hours. The bond is tenacious, to say the least. I know Schluter doesn't condone it's use over Ditra (in the USA), but I don't hesitate for a moment.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Greg, what do you pay per bag?


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

angus242 said:


> Greg, what do you pay per bag?


Around sixteen bucks.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

HS345 said:


> I know Schluter doesn't condone it's use over Ditra (in the USA)


Yet another reason I say that shlooter (in the US) is little more than a top down marketing machine. It seems like there's a protective sphere around the continental US that prevents anything from coming in and inside is only what the marketing machine of shlooter says is real. 

Weird, this force field, but then again, shlooter is really great at creating an "internet buzz"


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

HS345 said:


> Ardex makes some of the best mortars in the industry.
> 
> Another advantage of the FB-9L is, it's groutable in six hours. The bond is tenacious, to say the least. I know Schluter doesn't condone it's use over Ditra (in the USA), but I don't hesitate for a moment.


You can lay tile with this thinset and walk on it in 6 hrs to grout? or can you only grout walls in 6 hrs?


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

bluebird5 said:


> You can lay tile with this thinset and walk on it in 6 hrs to grout? or can you only grout walls in 6 hrs?


Yep, you can walk on it in six hours.


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## opiethetileman (Apr 7, 2005)

i atended the class with the JB freak folks a few years back and greg was there as well. great class and lots of good info. But i have to say the laticrete PTK is a step above the schulter class.:clap:


but its a great place to get some good info and meet great folks:whistling


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