# Square footage cost/bidding



## vtgaetano (Mar 5, 2006)

Does anyone actually use square footage cost to bid framing, labor only? The range can be so wide that I tend to do it the long old fashion way by studying the print, adding man hours to come up with a number? Is this the "best" way or is there some square footage "formula" I should get? Thanks.


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

Framing, yes thats all I use is sf for bidding labor only.

But I know how fast my guys are.


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## Paulsan (Jun 19, 2005)

Ditto. Square foot pricing. The only add ons for me are " custom framing " features like prow walls, balloon framing, barrell or tray ceilings, hand framed witch's tits, etc...
Basically, generic framing = sq. ft. pricing.
Framing that involves a skill set which only comes from years of experience naturally increases the sq. ft. price.
If you can deliver a minimum of 5000 sq. ft. per month with a three man crew, ( plus a part time ground ***** for cleanup ) and all the trades that follow have a deficiency-free environment in which to perform their tasks, then I say it will be in no time at all that word will spread and you will get whatever price you negotiate for.
Keep in mind that you must frame your kitchen walls absolutely square and plumb. The cabinet boys will love you. You must frame your washroom walls properly to keep the plumbers happy. You must frame your floor system to ensure that the soil pipes in the washroom don't end up in the middle of a joist.
The list goes on and on, but I think you get the picture.
When I first walk on to a job site I will eyeball the foundation for level. Then I take my construction master and check the foundation for square. If it's nasty, which makes my job harder, I'll make a point of telling the general. If it happens twice, I tell the general that I need more money per sq. ft., or that he needs to hire a more proficient cribber. And so will the mason ask for more money because his brick check will be eaten up by my squaring the building on the shabby foundation.
When all is said, I think that the better a job you do as a framer, the easier it will be on all the trades that follow. When all the trades that follow comment favorably to the general about your framing, the more respect (/money)
you will earn.


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## vtgaetano (Mar 5, 2006)

[Basically, generic framing = sq. ft. pricing.
Yes, that all makes sense. I build everything, plumb, level and square thats for sure, I don't think you'd make it around here with anything less. I almost never do any "generic framing" generally always on the high end custom stuff, so that was the price I am trying to get, for a not "generic" SF price. Thanks both.


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## dayspring (Mar 4, 2006)

I've never understood the logic behind the sf (floor space) estimating method. Unless all your homes are exactly the same or you are soooo high on your price that you know you labor time is covered, you simply can't give an accurate or fair estimate. For example a 2000 sf home could have 3 bedrooms, 1 or 2 baths, livingroom, hallway,walk-in closets, pantry, Could be 1 or 2 story, could have basement, just too many variables. However if you bid using the sf of wall space, sf floor, sf ceiling, sf roof, etc. you will be more accurate. Does this or does this not make any sense? Ya'll help me understand this. I like to know I have enough money in a job to not only produce a high quality product but also profit a little without being unfair to the client. It does take a lot more time to itemize an estimate, I've just never had any luck with the one size fits all method.


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## vtgaetano (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree with dayspring and is why I asked the question. Every project is usually so different that I don't see (and still don't after getting replys) how one could have a "square foot" cost for framing. I guess I will continue to do it the way I always have, man hours.......Thanks.


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

vtgaetano said:


> I agree with dayspring and is why I asked the question. Every project is usually so different that I don't see (and still don't after getting replys) how one could have a "square foot" cost for framing. I guess I will continue to do it the way I always have, man hours.......Thanks.


I like the man hours approach also. This is fair to you and the client. We need to educate the HO as to why sqft pricing is detrimental to them. Every job we do is site specific and has numerous variables that can not be calculated under sqft pricing.


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## Bushido (Mar 15, 2006)

I price by sq/ft. Framing is framing, who cares how many interior walls or baths or bdrms? Gotta bang togather a few 2, 3 or 4(or more lol) ply beams, so what. Hangers, who cares. Tall walls? Just less to frame upstairs. Bsmt out of square? S#*t, when don't you run into it?
I find 5000 sq per mo for 3 man crew poor, no offence. Roof is where you make your money. All these guys want a custom roof on a production home. Get the roof set-up and covered as quick as possible or you either lose or price yourself out of a job.
How much money is in a house? At $4 per/sq on a 3000 house = $12,000. Doesn't matter what is inside that house, it's all floor, walls and roof. That's it! Deduct labour, ins, nails etc, transportation and upkeep = profit. Pop that up every 10-12 days, do the math. Subtract the time you will spend adding up studs and valleys and crap, and you will make more money and spend more of your nights getting laid lol. 
by the sq is he only way imo


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

I use the SF price as a takeoff, then add for up and cut up. Works fine for me. If I spend too much time picking at every penny the job looses my protective man hours. I try to see ahead, however I realize this biz can be unpredictable and I'm not going to see it all.

Another thing, Bushido, 4 is a little low. Thats where I start on a ranch, or used to, I don't sub much anymore.

Bob


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Bushido said:


> I price by sq/ft. Framing is framing, who cares how many interior walls or baths or bdrms? Gotta bang togather a few 2, 3 or 4(or more lol) ply beams, so what. Hangers, who cares. Tall walls? Just less to frame upstairs. Bsmt out of square? S#*t, when don't you run into it?
> I find 5000 sq per mo for 3 man crew poor, no offence. Roof is where you make your money. All these guys want a custom roof on a production home. Get the roof set-up and covered as quick as possible or you either lose or price yourself out of a job.
> How much money is in a house? At $4 per/sq on a 3000 house = $12,000. Doesn't matter what is inside that house, it's all floor, walls and roof. That's it! Deduct labour, ins, nails etc, transportation and upkeep = profit. Pop that up every 10-12 days, do the math. Subtract the time you will spend adding up studs and valleys and crap, and you will make more money and spend more of your nights getting laid lol.
> by the sq is he only way imo



Can somebody translate?


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## Bushido (Mar 15, 2006)

Sorry Gordo, what part do you not understand? Buddy asked if you priced by sf. I do. This is why. i don't like the man hour guess thing, it doesn't work unless you pad your price by a percentage of god knows only what. Your lead hand on lot a has a hangover monday morn, guess what, you lose. Rookie two toe is off sick fri, doesn't call in. Who covers? You. Lose again. 
A house is a house. It's all the same job. Because you have a problem doing something and it is going to take longer than someone else, you want to charge more. Is that right?
I was also saying that most crews lose their time on the roof, so it is important to get off the roof quickly.
Not beefing you Gordo lol! I tried pricing by how long I've thought a job would take in me younger days, but you either make a killing or take it up the .
Hello Glass, how are you doing? Are you in any of 'dem 'der pics on your site? I'm up here in ont, canada. I do new const framing and our prices run about $3.75 to 4.5 sqft, no window installed, backframing, deck framing or clean-up and we provide our own nails but not hangers or glue. On the other hand, we don't get paid for garages or open to above areas.
if I do private work for joe blow i charge more, but there is more expense, such as floating the zoom boom etc.
Let me know if you need more interprutation Gordo lol!


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Yes, some of dem der pics are of yours truly.

Another point I thought about along this topic, if your a sub, and most users of SF labor rates are, The GC's going to want a quick figure in order to consider your use, making SF rates more important to project totals.

Bob


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Thanks Bushido. I like the Rookie two toe nickname:laughing: . My experience is that square foot pricing is a ball park figure, not exact science. Most of my work is for HO and sometimes they ask for sqft. pricing. I say I do not do it. The reason is there are specific site considerations (keeping the house clean,parking,stairs,talking HO,where do we set up,etc.). If you know your daily rate and you know how many days its going to take then you know you will make your wage plus a profit (the way it should be). On the flip side, I do some new construction work as well. Its shocking when I here the GC say can you do it for x sqft. cause I know that figure is way low because I know how long it (there are always delays/f-ups) will take and I know my profit and overhead. In other words my sqft. pricing is going to be higher than the standard Dickie Wanchese I ain't got no insurance/certificate/don't pay no taxes price. I do not have to worry about my employees not showing up because I pay them well and they have been trained well. Sure the occasional might happen, the company still makes a profit. This is just my experience around here. Thanks for the interpretation.


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## vtgaetano (Mar 5, 2006)

Thanks for all the feedback. The majority here are(well, the experienced) agree that (from doing it over and over) we know how long it takes. And whoever said they would frame a 3000sf house for 12 grand, well good luck to you. I live in VERMONT, lots of "flatlanders" with lots of money, I know how long it takes to do these jobs, man hours I have always proffited big. Kind of rambling but I like to make as much as possible, obviously. I'm not in it for the exercise!


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## vtgaetano (Mar 5, 2006)

*one more thing...*

fire the fools that don't show up, leave early, shoot themselves, whatever, get someone in there that WANTS to work. I tell all my help "your fired right before you hit the ground".:thumbup:


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