# Where are we going ??



## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Bid a new 4,000 sq ft house. Dig stumps and haul out, burn brush from loggers mess. Dig, backfill, stone footers, drain tile, silt fence, install 330' of electric conduit, and 230' of 1.25" pressure sewer line, finish grade and stone driveway. $20,000

Some clown beat me for a price of $9,000. :hang:


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## Williams Ex Co (Dec 25, 2007)

Wow..... Sounds like someone wants to buy work pretty bad! 9K? Thats crazy talk.


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## guyute65045 (Nov 23, 2006)

I feel your pain, I got called to bid on fixing a H.O's mess, he dropped an acres worth of trees haphazardly. Job was to buck em sort em and stack for the log truck, then stump the acre (roughly 90 stumps), and grade level for an arena. I lost the job to someone who was willing to do it for 1200.00 plus buy wood for 50/chord. :confused1:


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Well lets hope we can all outlast the low ballers, (they won't last long at those prices).

I cut some of my rates to make sure I landed a recent project, I am glad I have the work, but I do regret the discount, it makes it tough to provide the level of service that I customarily do.


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## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

tgeb said:


> Well lets hope we can all outlast the low ballers, (they won't last long at those prices).
> 
> I cut some of my rates to make sure I landed a recent project, I am glad I have the work, but I do regret the discount, it makes it tough to provide the level of service that I customarily do.


Isn't that the truth:thumbsup: I have been sharpening my pencil tighter in order to meet lower budgets for seemingly larger projects. The only way I can get it to where it needs to be is by doing less hand holding, and putting more of the leg work onto the customer. The drawback is that most of the legwork doesn't get done and if you want to get the project going you end up doing it for freearty: My equipment rates are still right up there and I am keeping busy, but I am learning how to stick to the contract more without doing "extras" for free........there used to be room to throw in that extra half hour clearing brush "on my way out". Not anymore if I can help it, since I need to be back on the trailer and on my way to another paying job so that I can feed my family and maybe enjoy one day off a week:clap: Hang in there guys, if you view your skills as a trade and charge for it, you'll do all right I believe.


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## Heimy (Jan 28, 2009)

Man and i thought you were giving it away at 20,000


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## D-Excavator (Jun 21, 2009)

We always get what we pay for! I am sure he will be calling when he is stuck in the peagravel on his driveway! LOL..


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## Upchuck (Apr 7, 2009)

I have given only 10 estimates this year to date. Only got 1 out of 10. These are the guys beating me:
1. Guy does excavation & foundation. Doesn't do any utility hook ups. 
Bunch of illegals on his crew. Site looks like a bomb hit it after he 
leaves.
2. Guy has bunch of young guys working. Doesn't pay them much. He was 
doing sewer connection in busy road. In sandy material he used 
2 sheets of plywood with 2x4 across in a 10' deep trench.
3. Guy doing existing homes connecting to new sewer. Permits, pump &
crush old tank, 60'-90' of pipe, 20-30 yds loam, rake.
free hydro-seeding. Total price $1500.

Thank god I have a condo project going. Downsized to 4 guys. Just trying to get thru this downturn.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

bid a storm sewer project last wk......2 yrs ago, been damn lucky to have 3 bidders....2 yrs ago, job would have went for $330-350k......11 bidders, went for $256k...to a contractor 100 miles away, with $222k worth of material on the job. this ain't over gents.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Maybe you'll be the guy to go in and fix it in 18 months! :w00t:


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

tom, what's sad....the low bid is a VERY reputable contractor....this guy doesn't have redo's......he's trying to keep men busy.


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## Blas (Jan 29, 2008)

20-50 people bidding dirt in the cities. We are working out of town this year unfortunately. I just gave up on that crap. People beating us by 30%-60% and I know we aren't cruzing around in Bentley's and lear jets around here so what do ya do. Most guys with paid for equipment are just charging for labor this year. To bad I am not in that boat.:laughing:


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

well, was the bridesmaid again today.....went in a job where backhoe1 is from....$412k worth of material, 1/3 of the sanitary pipe was 17-21' deep,....we went in at $793k, bid 8-10-12" watermain install at $6.75 a foot cause we need work. sewer main install @ $18 a foot....got taken out by $45k. this just isn't fun anymore :sad::sad:


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

My next door neighbor is a contractor or rather, a partner in a company that specializes in state and government work, like rip rap jobs, and waterways, etc. They haven't landed a job in months due to out of state contractors coming in and low balling the bids. Same thing Tom....he said a few years ago, a few bidders, now, 50 or more companies bidding and jobs going at cost of materials....

I told him to make my wife a partner....Native American....then they can bid the jobs reserved for "NA" companies, and at least still compete.


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

Day are you guys atleast staying busy?


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

dayexco said:


> well, was the bridesmaid again today.....went in a job where backhoe1 is from....$412k worth of material, 1/3 of the sanitary pipe was 17-21' deep,....we went in at $793k, bid 8-10-12" watermain install at $6.75 a foot cause we need work. sewer main install @ $18 a foot....got taken out by $45k. this just isn't fun anymore :sad::sad:




Wow, I wouldn't even think about doing sewer mains for $18/ft. I am bidding a job for only 500' and I am going in at $40/ft.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

i'm moving to pennsylvania


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## ctkiteboarding (Jul 10, 2006)

i hear ya guys my main client is looking shakey and has strated to cry abit about day rates i have a 130, a 580 and a mini on site at all times what would a rate per day be if it were you? im trying to see his side but damn this is getting old real quick


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## JDavis21835 (Feb 27, 2009)

rino1494 said:


> Wow, I wouldn't even think about doing sewer mains for $18/ft. I am bidding a job for only 500' and I am going in at $40/ft.


Yeah, But you have them pesky rock things to dig thru.


We are starting to see some work coming down the line, and the office is out to get anything and everything. We have two schools going on right now, one is not a big issue when it is complete, its the track, tennis courts, and soccer field. My project will be an issue if things to get hashed out between the architect and school board. Since im doing the parking area that is all sand, surrounded by clay, wet material is an issue. Compound that with old concrete septic drain tile encased in concrete that had several breaks, dumping water into the subgrade, its been a tough project for something that should be simple.


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## guyute65045 (Nov 23, 2006)

Just got word back from a commercial bid that I placed a couple weeks ago. I was in the middle of the pack at 57K, low bidder was 37.5K giving away 700 yards of state spec road base just to keep his tracks moving. I cant compete with that.


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## Williams Ex Co (Dec 25, 2007)

I bid a house demo a few weeks ago. Demo, cap utilities, back fill and grade... Landfill fees, cans, everything all inclusive at 12K and didnt figure I would do too well at that since the LF fees are so high now... Now I get to drive by it most days and watch the low bidder... Notice I said most days? Thats right, he's been at it for over a week now... She hired some lowlife hack to dismantle the house a piece at a time and haul it off.... Not haul it to the landfill though as he bid it at $2500 bucks.... Freakin' amazing! Veins start to pop outta my neck when I drive by.... This woman is doing something blatantly wrong AFAIK... Hauling this house off to someones farm so it can be burned or buried there just chaps my a$$... I shouldnt be surprised, she is a retired State Official...


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I would not hesitate to make a call to the EPA or DEQ in the area.....we pay those guys to do a job, and it would only take one exposure to a Fed and a fine of thousands to ruin a hack's day.


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## pce (Apr 12, 2009)

Well, after seeing the mess that the lowest bidder blocklayer left and the crooked wall that was put up, he did not put the electrial boxes in. The plumber left $ 30,000.00 on the table, no laser to shoot grades, didn't know so he says about half the stuff he needs to do. I am having a good time watching. The general has wondered away from me once and I charged him more than what my first bid was to fix all the problems that were left to me to fix. Hang in there and hold your numbers. Digger


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

I am not in excavating, but this same type of thing is running rampid throughout all trades. What do you guys forecast happening? I mean this trend can't continue?!! Have you guys ever seen what is happening now? I mean you guys that have been in the biz for quite some time. Seen anything like this lowball working for material type of situation? It can't go on. Just can't. To wipe out all the trades.. there is just no way.


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## BobsLandscaping (May 25, 2009)

Where are we going? We're going down, down down into a burning ring of fire.





 
You guys take a look at the lawn industry lately? Not everyone can afford a big excavator and a truck to haul it. Unfortunately everyone can afford a POS mower from Wal Mart. Then these guys go out, do a crappy job, and make it harder to sell professional lawn care. Especially when it costs more than $10 a week. :furious: :furious:


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

ctkiteboarding said:


> i hear ya guys my main client is looking shakey and has strated to cry abit about day rates i have a 130, a 580 and a mini on site at all times what would a rate per day be if it were you? im trying to see his side but damn this is getting old real quick


Based on 8 hr day.

130 -- $720
580 -- $600
mini -- $600


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## insane (May 27, 2009)

I get the same crap all the time.
I wonder if these low ballers are desperate for the money.
If they are desperate for the money it must mean they don't have any and are in debt up to their eyeballs. 
The way i figure it wont be long before they are out of money and out of business.
Boy i sure hope this is true because this isn't fun anymore.

Tim


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## ctkiteboarding (Jul 10, 2006)

rino1494 said:


> Based on 8 hr day.
> 
> 130 -- $720
> 580 -- $600
> mini -- $600


 im at 15 for the day w me in the seat and and 1 crew hes wants me to cut it down im finding it hard to swallow


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

don't do it. I hate the fact that us contractors have to "sharpen our pencils" or eat the cost when no other industry does. Mcdonalds doesn't come down on price for 1 or 1000 big mac burgers...


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## fhdesign (Jan 17, 2007)

im at 15 for the day w me in the seat and and 1 crew hes wants me to cut it down im finding it hard to swallow

It is hard to swallow, but if he is keeping up with paying the bills then you may want to stay with him, paying work is getting hard to find in our area.


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## ctkiteboarding (Jul 10, 2006)

fhdesign said:


> im at 15 for the day w me in the seat and and 1 crew hes wants me to cut it down im finding it hard to swallow
> 
> It is hard to swallow, but if he is keeping up with paying the bills then you may want to stay with him, paying work is getting hard to find in our area.


he wants 1000 after 2 for the crew and 150 for fuel ouch


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

> sharpen our pencils


I never heard this phrase until a couple weeks ago. A customer tried to renegotiate the price at contract signing. He said "are you ready to sharpen your pencil for some greens?"

Bill held to his price and got the job. I'm so proud.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

I should add that he didn't always hold to his price. Early on this was a problem.....


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## pepe (Nov 1, 2007)

1st post, I have been reading with interest this post and is eerie what is happening to the majority on the board and our situation here in Western AZ.

A little background, our company has been in business for 19 years and needles to say did pretty well during the real estate boom, however when the shoes started to fall down, our area when from 1800 building permits a year to 300. Anticipating the dark days ahead the owner decided to start concentrating in public works, Federal, State, County and City.

Well that have not worked that great, Companies from out of state started to flock to this area, we had bid 15 projects from sewer hook ups, demolition and Mass Excavation and cannot even smell the top 3 bidders.

What is real frustrating is that we owned our dirt pit, employ local force, have excellent relationship with our suppliers and it most cases don't even account for mobilization in order to be competitive.

I did a little research into the outfits that have been awarded the contracts and find out that these companies are basically owned by members of a church/set located out of town that employs only members of that Church. I don't have any quarrels against any religious affiliation of lack of. But it appears to me that this a clear violation of federal laws against discrimination, although the contractors in the area don't have any proof the assumption is that payroll checks are distribute and later refunded in the form of ties. 

Is utterly impossible to Bid a job for 850,000 when your labor cost along amount to 350,000 and Materials are 450,000. But this has been happening in a regular basis. What about overhead? mobilization? profit? 

The contractors in our area are a very tight bunch, they live by the motto "you scratch my back and I scratch yours" and regularly use each other as subs, However the matter has reach epic proportions in our area.

I have always believe that local contractors should received a sort of discount or "home field advantage" in the bidding process, after all the City will be able to collect a greater proportion of sales taxes because the labor force will spend more of their monies locally also local employment will reduce the burden of services for those unemployed and business will be able to stay afloat for future tax revenues.

All we can do for the moment is make sure that a level playing field is been enforce by local agencies in this matter and for private clients that use this type of outfits be aware that when you roof leak, your foundation start sinking or your sewer back up and is time to pick up the phone, don't be surprise to hear the dreaded "this number is no longer in service"


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Thanks for your input Pepe, and welcome to the site!


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## Hanalike (May 3, 2008)

Its just as bad here. Guys will literally ask homeowners how much the lowest bid is, and tell them they will beat it by 10%. No take off, don't even look at the plans nothing, its ridiculous.


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## Hanalike (May 3, 2008)

And on a second note, sometimes I go back and see what kind of job the homeowner got. 99% of the time its a pure hack job, but everytime I point it out to the homeowner they all say the same thing:

"But I got such a great deal!"

 Whatever. call me when you need it redone, or it fails, or when you realized you got ripped off, IF im still in business. 

Good luck guys, hang in there.


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