# Pricing for a g.c before they get the job.



## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

I recently was contacted by a local GC company who's mason just retired. In 4 weeks they have sent me 6 jobs ranging from block addition to a few changes to door and window sizes, all nice jobs exactly the work I like to do.
However, 2 of those jobs have start dates the other 4 are in the bidding process, I just found this out after speaking to the office manager. 
I have yet to receive signed contracts for the 2 jobs with start dates, but they want more pricing, I kinda feel I am doing their work for them by giving out numbers for project they may or my not get. 
What if I spend all the hours putting together prices, they base the price of that and then bid it job out once signed. 
If I had a history with these guys this would not be a problem but as I say they are new to me.
Any GC I work with normally have the job in the bag before they ask for my numbers, I thought this is common practice.
Am I being takin for a fool on this????
Local GC's can provide work in the winter so I don't wanna burn my bridge before I have crossed it.
Thoughts
T.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Id tell them you've bid six. Thats it until you've done work and actually recieved some form of payment from them.


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## digiconsoo (Apr 23, 2012)

Most of the GCs we supply ask for numbers in the bidding stage - 

I like it better that way.

Many times we get the same set of plans from three or four general contractors.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Most of my bids for GCs are for jobs that have yet to break ground. But after bidding several times and never getting them, I tell them I'm not interested.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

Suggest you hone in on the 2 with start dates and what your involvement with them is and why or why not. :thumbsup:

Are you bidding off of plans or field verification?


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

After you gain some experience with these folks, and they with you, a lot of this may go away. 

I never ask my subs to pre-bid for any work. I tend to know what they charge for things and price my jobs accordingly. I do require they do an accurate field re-measure, before I order product and I pay them for that time and trip charge.

Occasionally, I will get a surprise on a bill and when I do, we discuss it. But, I trust my guys and if they run across a situation where they need to do something extra to make it a better install, I gladly pay it. I don't miss things too often, but sometimes I do.

But, my guys know that they are under strict marching orders to make the install as good as it can be. Because they understand that I'm not going to nickel and dime them to death come payday. Because of that trust, they often don't even charge me for some of the little extra things they may do.

So it works out well for all of us. But, it does take a while to build that trust.

Good luck with this GC.... it sounds like it might be a good source for you. :thumbsup:


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

I get prices from my subs for all my estimates. Of course, I don't get multiple bids.


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

Creter said:


> Suggest you hone in on the 2 with start dates and what your involvement with them is and why or why not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bidding of the plans,


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

SamM said:


> I get prices from my subs for all my estimates. Of course, I don't get multiple bids.


That's my man concern, I supply the numbers and they may use that to base their price on and try and get a lesser price once signed. If I didn't think there will be multiple bids from my competition I would be more inclined to give the prices


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

Who's the mason for the 2 projects with the start dates?

Is it you or someone else?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I have one GC that sent me one every week at least. After the first 5 bids and never hearing back I just stopped replying. After they called me asking if I was going to submit a price by dateX I just said no.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

There's nothing wrong with the practice, but 6 is too many without a signed job. If they're not turning into business, it's just costing you money. Tell him that.


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

Creter said:


> Who's the mason for the 2 projects with the start dates?
> 
> 
> 
> Is it you or someone else?



I was told its me but I ain't seen any written confirmation to back that up.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

There's nothing at all wrong with asking you for a bid prior to getting a job. With no history, how is a GC to know your pricing? Don't forget that HOs also get bids from GCs without necessarily hiring them either.

I do agree though, if you're working up multiple bids with no favorable results, there comes a point at which you have to call a halt to it.


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## calmod (Aug 16, 2011)

*bid before contract signed*

I'm a GC and I do it all the time. I don't like to submit a bid price to the client without knowing my costs. I often submit a seat of the pants estimate as I do tend to know unit pricing but I quite often try to have my costs on larger projects dialed in before I submit a contract I have to live with. I work in Los Angeles and with structural concrete especially I want to have some sort of commitment before I commit as those numbers can vary quite a bit. With that said I work with the same Subcontractors all the time and never base my price on my higher priced subcontractors and price shop after the fact. As a GC I have the same issue with architects and designers as I've been used quite a few times to keep the pricing of their already predestined contractor in check by submitting pricing on highly involved projects. After two or three exhaustive bids for an architect and nothing happens with them I tend to back off. My subs know that if they submit three bids and nothing happens on them I will make damn sure the next thing I have them price happens.


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

It's always their estimators that email too, it kinda like, "what do you do?"


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## digiconsoo (Apr 23, 2012)

S.U.M said:


> It's always their estimators that email too, it kinda like, "what do you do?"


Well, they do have to take your number and multiply it by something.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I generally ask for a general knowledge on how they price from a sub i become accustomed to dealing with and intend to stay with. I am certain guys like 480 who hate GCs :laughing: will not believe it, but i am not asking them to hold to what i estimate with that. I use it to make as accurate an estimate as i can, i give an ESTIMATE to my client. If they move forward, i send it to bid with my subs. We generally charge a fee for anything past that on a decent project, more than once we divided that fee up and paid subs for their time, but rarely is it necessary. 

As for old subs i have had a few ***** under their breath ( understandably ) during the recession about not getting jobs after several bids. I return that loyalty though, I have lost jobs because i wouldnt get multiple bids on a trade i only trusted my normal sub on, more than a couple times. My paving contractor is a big one. We lost a lot of houses in a row, for years, he has put in two roads for me this year ( one this week), and more than once i refused to get another bid when he seemed high to a client, or when he bumped a client more than once because of additons to his current contracts. My mason is another. I refer a lot of work to both. 

With a new GC, check him out with other trades and see if he is on the up and up. I see your concern.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Jaws said:


> ....... I am certain guys like 480 who hate GCs ..........



Untrue. I just hate certain ones. Not many, but they know who they are.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Untrue. I just hate certain ones. Not many, but they know who they are.


I was just funnin


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

S.U.M said:


> I was told its me but I ain't seen any written confirmation to back that up.


Since they have start dates and you most likely are the sub contractor - requesting a contract from them in order to firm your schedule is not too much to ask in my opinion.

If you do get the affirmation that suits you - continue on bidding the work if you have the time and inclination to do so.

Setting the standard now should allow for a great professional relationship down the line if everyone does their part.

Good luck! :thumbsup:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I already know about what you charge, that's how I am with most sub trades I use. If the guy needs precision pricing for a residential project he is bidding in Toronto...he shouldn't be in the business of estimating.


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

Chris is a great example, have worked together on a few projects, we discussed pricing and the scope of work I do and he knows the story, if he needs a price for something we have never done for him I have no worries about sitting down to put it together because the history is there..... And most importantly he pays on time😆


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I bid quite a few this way, if a job is outside of my usual scope. (Roofing) my contractors will typically ask for a price, a couple just tell me to do it and give them a bill.


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

Emailed the GC today, expressed my concern about the situation, within 30 mins had 2 PO numbers for 2 jobs I have priced, 
Thanks for the advice guys will keep pricing now I have jobs on the board.👍👍👍


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

Jaws said:


> I generally ask for a general knowledge on how they price from a sub i become accustomed to dealing with and intend to stay with. I am certain guys like 480 who hate GCs :laughing: will not believe it, but i am not asking them to hold to what i estimate with that. I use it to make as accurate an estimate as i can, i give an ESTIMATE to my client. If they move forward, i send it to bid with my subs. We generally charge a fee for anything past that on a decent project, more than once we divided that fee up and paid subs for their time, but rarely is it necessary.
> 
> 
> .



That's pretty much my standard practice as well, I'm not going to waste my subs time until I know we have a good shot at getting the job, now my subs know that part of me getting the job is their pricing and the more competitive they are the better the chances of us all eating. 

But don't get me wrong I have no problem getting another bid to check any of my subs if I think there pulling something.


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## RH*carpenter (Mar 24, 2014)

Digiconsoo

Why does a G.C. have to take your number and multiply it by something? Cost plus 20% would mean unknown cost plus 20%.

I live in Arizona. The lien laws here contemplate two conditions under which labor and materials may be furnished for the construction, alteration or repair of buildings and other structures: First, at the instance of the property owner; Or, second, at the instance of the owner's agent. All contractors and subcontractors are deemed agents of the property owner.

It is routinely held by courts that the term "agent" has a specific legal meaning. The Supreme Court of Arizona has held that in order to act as an agent for purposes of the lien laws that one must first be employed as an agent. So why would a person who does not already have a contract to order the labor and materials need a price for labor and materials? The job of a contractor or subcontractor is to create debt for the property owner. If these debts are not paid then liens can be imposed on the property.

By law here in Arizona, the agent must give invoices or bills from mechanics and materialmen to prove actual labor and material costs. The agent is then reimbursed for the actual costs. When labor and materials are furnished at the request of the property owner, the property owner is the contractor.

Suppose we take a simple example. A property owner wants his house painted. As is contemplated by the lien laws he can contract directly with mechanics and materialmen. In such case the owner is the painting contractor. Or, as is contemplated by the lien laws, the property owner can employ an agent to act as painting contractor. Such a contract is to order the necessary labor and materials for the job. Mechanics and materialmen are therefore third parties to that contract. As such they are entitled to see the contract before giving prices to perform labor or furnish materials. 

Since contractors and subcontractors are reimbursed for labor and material costs then it must be true that their contracts are on a cost plus basis with the costs being an unknown.


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## digiconsoo (Apr 23, 2012)

RH,

It appears that you spent a fair amount of time and effort to create that loquacious response.

Forgive me if I don't understand what the heck you are talking about.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Interesting topic, says me, aka Captain Obvious.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

When builders, GCs or homeowners leave me a message "im getting bids for xyz", I just delete the message.


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## BradingCon (Dec 17, 2010)

I can't imagine trying to run a construction business by getting multiple sub trade bids for every project. Having no trusting relationship with my subs would be stressful to say the least. In my 5 years of running things I have had one plumber and one electrician. They give me numbers for the projects and if I get the job then they get the job. Simple as that. I trust them and they trust me and I feel everybody wins. Or loses sometimes.


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## RH*carpenter (Mar 24, 2014)

Digiconsoo

Put simply, there is a distinction between a contract to perform labor and a contract to employ labor. There is a distinction between a contract to furnish materials and a contract to order the materials from someone else. A painting contractor does not perform labor or furnish materials. He makes contracts to employ painters and obtain the materials from third parties for which the property owner is liable.

I will bet that your state's lien laws are like Arizona's. If you do not understand them how can you possibly enforce a lien? Ask an attorney what the term "agent" means. Have you ever heard of a sports agent? He represents the athlete who hired him. A contractor is an agent of the property owner who hired him. 

Try this visual imagery. As was stated by the Supreme Court of Wisconsin in City of Milwaukee v. Rissling, 184 Wis. 517, 199 N.W. 61, concerning the electrical field there are "contractors on the one hand, and journeymen on the other." Journeymen are mechanics and contractors are not. Mechanics perform labor and contractors do not. This distinction can be applied to any trade. If we call those on the left hand "journeymen" and those on the right hand "contractors" who do you think could make a contract to perform labor? From which hand must he come?

By the way, this distinction between contractors and journeymen is the basis for all valid licensing laws in the U.S.


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## digiconsoo (Apr 23, 2012)

RH,

That's all fine and good.

What did that have to do with my offhanded, snarky comment about the "heavy" workload of the *ESTIMATOR* who gets numbers from subs????

Here it is again, for context:

http://www.contractortalk.com/f16/pricing-g-c-before-they-get-job-216897/#post3413649


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

A fellow GC and I were driving to our state HBA meeting a few days ago, and he told me his mason gave him a bid, did the work, got paid, and then a few days later, he found the mason measuring the house he already finished....asked what he was doing? The mason said he misfigured the bid, and didn't charge enough. 

Sure enough, a few days later, my friend gets a bill from the mason for an extra $6500 or something, and tells the guy to explain his reasoning since he bid it? After listening to crying and whining, my buddy agreed to pay him half of what he demanded, and the mason is still crying. 
I told my buddy better you then me because if I screwed up, I would not expect to get anything from anyone...and I would have told the mason to pound sand. 

Moral of this story? The mason lost any future work with my buddy, and after hearing that, me, and I would guess that the rest of our association has heard it too....so if your bid isn't good, then you probably need to evaluate your business. 

BTW, I always solicit bids before I turn in final numbers. The guys who get the jobs and then go low ball shopping for bids are trying to increase their bottom line, IMO.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Joasis said:


> ...his mason gave him a bid, did the work, got paid, and then a few days later, he found the mason measuring the house he already finished....


That's just comical.


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## jadleybray (May 2, 2008)

There is a large seperation in residential and commercial contracting regarding procedure, and even more between private and public work. It is sop to solicit bids as a GC, even small projects, bid per the plans & specs. Any work outside of that is a CO, preapproved prior to commencing work. It is not uncommon on larger portion MEP scopes to have 5-10 bids. We shoot for no less than 3 bids per division, because our competitors certainly will! Look at it this way, if you receive a request to bid from a GC on a public project, it most certainly is competitive bidding for the GC also, however, this also should trigger you as a subcontractor to research all the GC's bidding the project and provide a bid to them, multiplying your opportunity for securing the project no matter which GC is successful. Food for thought.


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