# I fear for my safety



## grizl

Sort of. They union picketers have been picketing our company for years. Because we are non union. They showed up to my job yesterday and I mouthed off to them. Today they showed up. Big time.  Twenty plus guys with a military guy (seriously, a Military car) to lead the chants. They were yelling directly at us (very loudly and intimidatingly). Needless to say we left for the day. We will see what happens tomorrow. The two of us working left in different directions. The other guy got followed. He lost him through the city. They mean business this time.
Our company is a good company and we all get paid fine with benefits so we are proud of it and all respect the owner. This is a terrible campaign with no end in sight. Why does the Carpenters union think these are acceptable forms of competition?
Any thoughts?


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## neolitic

Don't know your situation.
I do know (and maybe now
you do too) it's not a good 
idea to provoke people.
I worked through one where 
the FBI made regular jobsite
visits.
One union steward found a bomb
in his car, the rep had a molotov 
cocktail thrown through his window.
How much was it worth to you
to "mouth off"?


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## shanekw1

Typical union strong-arm tactics, trying to scare ppl into believing their BS.


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## mickeyco

Did they bring out the giant rat, I love the giant rat.




.


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## grizl

neolitic said:


> Don't know your situation.
> I do know (and maybe now
> you do too) it's not a good
> idea to provoke people.
> I worked through one where
> the FBI made regular jobsite
> visits.
> One union steward found a bomb
> in his car, the rep had a molotov
> cocktail thrown through his window.
> How much was it worth to you
> to "mouth off"?


I heard a good quote today. An old African line, "hold your weapon" referring to your mouth.
I did get the sense of real danger today.
my new tactic, avoid, ignore, avoid.


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## 22rifle

grizl said:


> Sort of. They union picketers have been picketing our company for years. Because we are non union. They showed up to my job yesterday and I mouthed off to them. Today they showed up. Big time.  Twenty plus guys with a military guy (seriously, a Military car) to lead the chants. They were yelling directly at us (very loudly and intimidatingly). Needless to say we left for the day. We will see what happens tomorrow. The two of us working left in different directions. The other guy got followed. He lost him through the city. They mean business this time.
> Our company is a good company and we all get paid fine with benefits so we are proud of it and all respect the owner. This is a terrible campaign with no end in sight. Why does the Carpenters union think these are acceptable forms of competition?
> Any thoughts?


If they cross any legal lines call the cops.


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## grizl

mickeyco said:


> Did they bring out the giant rat, I love the giant rat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


 no not this time, though they have used it before.


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## Ed the Roofer

Threats of physical violence could be construed as rackateering, if the union police would want to get involved, but maybe a higher level such as the FBI would.

If there presence and actions creates a dangerous job site, try contacting OSHA to have them fined.

Ed


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## dreamz

mickeyco said:


> Did they bring out the giant rat, I love the giant rat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


lol...I've had the giant rat at one of my jobs..


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## BKFranks

I wouldn't mind having a stronger union presence around here. The way it is now around here, the union is worthless and illegals have driven all the wages into the toilet. Union wages $37.35 an hour plus benefits (IF anyone could actually get any work with the union). Average wage for non-union $15-18 an hour with no benefits. That's a whopping $37k a year. That may sound OK in some areas, but not in California. To afford a house in this state you've got to make a combined income of about $120k to even get approved for a home loan. Average listing price of a home here $658,000.


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## grizl

BKFrank- Yeah the country is a dynamic place. In some some situations and areas the union might be a good thing. In other parts of the country it's a problem. I don't think a family company should ever feel threatened because of a union campaign against them. Especially if the wages and benefit package is similar to that which is offered by union companies.


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## JonM

Camcorder....tape everything while they are carrying on...:thumbup:...you may need it someday.


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## mickeyco

BKFranks said:


> I wouldn't mind having a stronger union presence around here. The way it is now around here, the union is worthless and illegals have driven all the wages into the toilet. Union wages $37.35 an hour plus benefits (IF anyone could actually get any work with the union). Average wage for non-union $15-18 an hour with no benefits. That's a whopping $37k a year. That may sound OK in some areas, but not in California. To afford a house in this state you've got to make a combined income of about $120k to even get approved for a home loan. Average listing price of a home here $658,000.



The unions have been lobbying on behalf of the illegal aliens, they want there cut, that should tell you everything you ever wanted to know about unions.






.


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## Cole

JonM said:


> Camcorder....tape everything while they are carrying on...:thumbup:...you may need it someday.


I agree, but this might cause things to get worse.


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## concretemasonry

Since the company has been picketed for several years, it was just going through the "by the book" process until something happened.

The mouthing off may just have been the trigger to let people above the union business agent and possibly the local president to get dramatic. It also may have been an local member activist or maybe local elections were coming up.

I was responsible for 3 mason training sessions (one or two weeks each year) to get masons to lay to the line and learn materials. The students attending were sent by their employers usually and were non-union and union (some were in the apprectice program also). One day I got a call from the local BA informing me that some of the guys he could not control were going to slash my tires. I had old tires put on my car and when I came out of the masonry contractors meeting that night, they were slashed. No big problem since I planned ahead and left the car where it was so the mechanics could come out and replace the tires in the morning.

I mentioned it to the the man from Wisconsin who was teaching the class and he said the same thing happened to there, but he was not the token target of the local "goon" members.


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## Cdat

Fight fire with fire. Pay a bunch of local or illegal thugs, your choice, to 'talk' with the union guys.


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## LocalSoljah

I have a job going in Milwaukee right now and by talking with the other trades, seems the union is very weak in wisconsin being its a right to work state. I believe the union should stay strong to keep wages up for everyone but not at the expense of threats or physical violence.


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## Joasis

I just have to be thankful for living in Oklahoma. This stuff doesn't happen here...this is gun country, and intimidation has about a 50/50 chance of turning deadly....not to mention that fistfights are still not that unusual here. I may be the lone voice, but I wouldn't have let anyone force me off a jobsite in the circumstances you describe. They would have had to been armed to do so....and hope I didn't have anything close....nail gun, framing hammer, or forklift. 

One lesson I learned long ago about dogs and bullies.....99% of the time, it is all bluff....the 1% you need to know how to fight or bite harder then the dog....if faced with 20 guys...yeah, it would be scary, but I am just hard headed enough to tell the head bozo I won't be alone at the hospital....I would take one or more with me...and I know this tactic works. There is strength, or in this case, intimidation with numbers, but how brave would the head duck be with a 24 ounce claw hammer buried in his shoulder?

Is it worth violence? Probably not....maybe I carry the thought too far, but hey, that is why we post here. *So how many other guys would do what i would do? Not back off an inch? *


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## Ed the Roofer

I bought the Picketers on one of my job sites a long time ago a case of Ice Cold Brewskies to sip on during an extremely hot day.

I then arranged to have a nice candid photo shot made of the Union Picketers for future reference.

In cold weather, I actually have bought them some hot coffee too.

I even volunteered to carry their picket signs for them. Damn, I can kill them with kindness.

Then I challenged the picketing and my opportunity to work on the project and future ones with the NLRB and during the course of those actions, requested to be allowed into the Union again in a little known method, called an "Agency Fee" Member.

At that point, since I did not want to financially support their political views and non-union related expenses, I was able to require from them an "Audited Financial Statement", which would have caused them quite a few more headaches to have the distribution of the funds whereabouts know publicly, so they relinquished their pressure and we all finally agreed on a compromise, which is what I wanted from the beginning.

Ed


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## neolitic

I was not kidding about having
the Fibbies as job site regulars.
At least twice a week for a 
couple of months.
When things are violent, 
or about to turn that way,
I believe in nolo contendre.
By the way in that case it 
wasn't the union throwing 
the bombs.
It was hired goons, just like
the good ol' days.

That steward? when he noticed
something funny about his truck,
he was about to drive his little
girl to dance class.


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## Justbuilding

Out of curiosity, if your company "pays similiar benefits/ wages" what is the advantage to being non-union?


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## grizl

My parents are the ones who started the company and run it today. I do not know the specific benefits on there end other than having more freedom and flexibility. There are only three people total who work the office end. Why would they want a larger force overseeing and shadowing what they do. Looking at it from a financial perspective it would cost them more. From the worker point of view we can enjoy more freedoms. Hrs, breaks when we want to take them. As long as we get our hrs. in and the job done, everyone is happy.
Me personally, after years of experiencing unwarranted hatred from Some union workers I could never go union. Especially when they work so hard to shut out a good company.


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## dayspring

mickeyco said:


> Did they bring out the giant rat, I love the giant rat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


 
OK, I'm a dummy, What the heck is the GIANT RAT?:w00t:


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## neolitic

dayspring said:


> OK, I'm a dummy, What the heck is the GIANT RAT?:w00t:


I feel a graphic coming on. :shifty:


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## SLSTech

neolitic said:


> I feel a graphic coming on. :shifty:


:whistling Google anyone


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## grizl

nice, i haven't seen that one. The one I saw on one of our job was a guy in a rat costume. :laughing:


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## neolitic

Yeah, I like the filth mated mangy fur one.


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## BirmanBuilders

Funniest thing I ever saw on a jobsite which the union picketed, was the giant rat. The next day the boss went out and bought an even bigger inflatable cat and placed it behind the fence, union wasn't impressed but we thought it was great. End of the day we all have to work, we've all got bills. What I find unbeleavable is the salaries these so called union reps make. And it takes three of them to turn up in different vehicles. Nice to see your union dues going where it's needed. Had loads of union guys calling looking for work, they said the union doesn't help them find work and some were told get whatever you can. Just don't forget to keep up your union dues though, those rep company cars don't pay for themselves.


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## SLSTech

You should have gotten a picture of that. 

Seems like someone had a similar idea









Story on this one here - http://gothamist.com/2005/10/27/cat_vs_rat_at_radio_city_music_hall.php

Want your own rat - http://www.bigskyballoons.com/ratpack.html - of course you can also get a big TRex to do battle with it from them also :w00t:


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## Cdat

My other job, I have a bunch of union guys work for me. If we work a Saturday, we can have only so many people in the building or else the top manager has to be there too. So, we have a set amount of workers come in. Low houred workers are given 1st crack. This total amount of workers includes any union people in the building, so every union steward or chairman working, that means one less actual worker. Last Saturday, I had 15 people working for me. 3 were union rep's. Chairman, Steward and their Benefit's Rep. From what I can see is, the Union takes care of their own 1st. Their own are not the hourly people but the Union Rep's.


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## Cdat

Justbuilding said:


> Out of curiosity, if your company "pays similiar benefits/ wages" what is the advantage to being non-union?


No union dues. No one else telling you how to do your job or when to do your job. Additional people having to be paid for doing non-work (union) so to make up the cost, the owner would 1st cut wages. THAT is why people go non-union.


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## grizl

http://www.nrtw.org/free-tagging/union-violence
:ninja:


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## Justbuilding

Cdat said:


> No union dues. No one else telling you how to do your job or when to do your job. Additional people having to be paid for doing non-work (union) so to make up the cost, the owner would 1st cut wages. THAT is why people go non-union.


In my area at least, there isn't a cost to the company for being signatory to the union. Just an agreement to pay the union wage to their employees. Dues are the responsibility of the union member. Don't know what you mean by people being paid for doing non work. If someone is in fact paying similar to union wages/ benefits then I'm not sure what the benefit is to being non-union for a company.

A employee always has someone telling them how and when to do their job, union or non. Usually the union employee is better paid, and has health benefits, a pension. And really,will all those who don't want to make more money and be able to take care of their families please speak up and say so. 

I get all the union bashing, there are certainly people who are slackers just getting a paycheck in the union, but those people exist outside the union as well. Usually those people don't stay with any company for very long. The union doesn't force people on me, and if someone doesn't cut it, I'm sorry I'm downsizing my crew. I'll find someone who wants to work.


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## nap

JonM said:


> Camcorder....tape everything while they are carrying on...:thumbup:...you may need it someday.


Unless the person doing the recording is a party to the conversation, it is illegal to record the audio portion. Even if the person recording is a party, Wisconsin apparently does not allow such a recording for evidence except for drug and murder trials.


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## UNION 101

*The union*

The union is the only way to go. This day and age, benefits, vaca, pension, annuity. Job security, unemployment if work is slow.... No under the table bull...... You can only make more, never less. There are shlubs everywhere, but they keep me working, if they are unemployable, i am very willing to take their work and be employable. Union is taught by codes and right and wrong. By the best teachers available throughout the union....... Non union you roll the dice with your employer.... Most likely, half assers who hire illegal citizens and so on. They were never trained in proper use and know how. Simply put....... The end


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## concretemasonry

I know of some guys that are union members. In the summer, they take a withdrawal/leave and work piecework on open shop jobs. When things slow up, they go back into the union jobs and work steadily because they are good enough to be needed.

In the end, they make more money in the summer doing piecework and allow the rookies and apprectices to get some time. - It is good for everyone. The union collects the dues, since the amount of union work is adequate for the "rookies" to learn on. If the guys with the "whiskers" did not wirhdraw, the kids would not learn and the union would not be able to be maintained.

The union is just a business and needs dues and some new blood to keep going and protect the rights of the older members since the influence is shrinking.

For a contractor, it is an advantage to be smart enough to know the rules and how to go "double breasted" or maintain craftsmen and cover yourself no matter which political wind blows, but he has to be able to compete. This may not work in some of the more "political" eastern areas.


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## 22rifle

union 101 said:


> no under the table bull......


roflmao!


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## Proud Plumber

joasis said:


> There is strength, or in this case, intimidation with numbers, but how brave would the head duck be with a 24 ounce claw hammer buried in his shoulder?
> 
> *So how many other guys would do what i would do? Not back off an inch? *


:clap::clap::clap:


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## rbsremodeling

joasis said:


> I just have to be thankful for living in Oklahoma. This stuff doesn't happen here...this is gun country, and intimidation has about a 50/50 chance of turning deadly....not to mention that fistfights are still not that unusual here. I may be the lone voice, but I wouldn't have let anyone force me off a jobsite in the circumstances you describe. They would have had to been armed to do so....and hope I didn't have anything close....nail gun, framing hammer, or forklift.
> 
> One lesson I learned long ago about dogs and bullies.....99% of the time, it is all bluff....the 1% you need to know how to fight or bite harder then the dog....if faced with 20 guys...yeah, it would be scary, but I am just hard headed enough to tell the head bozo I won't be alone at the hospital....I would take one or more with me...and I know this tactic works. There is strength, or in this case, intimidation with numbers, but how brave would the head duck be with a 24 ounce claw hammer buried in his shoulder?
> 
> Is it worth violence? Probably not....maybe I carry the thought too far, but hey, that is why we post here. *So how many other guys would do what i would do? Not back off an inch? *


*200%. got your back on this*

I am a fun loving guy to no end. But crap like this boils my blood. My daddy taught me to defend myself at the age of 8. I got a whoppen if I lost a fight and my pops found out. 

I would kindly ask the offender to please get out my face twice after that. *LETS GET READY TO RUMMBBLLLEEE*


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## K2

> I wouldn't mind having a stronger union presence around here.


I'd like to see more union in my city too.


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## Chris Johnson

fungku said:


> I don't ever hear of things like that where I'm from. Interesting though.


That's because in Canada the union is not as powerful or as demanding as the U.S. In Canada most union and non-union companies work in harmony together, side by side.


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## grizl

Chris Johnson said:


> That's because in Canada the union is not as powerful or as demanding as the U.S. In Canada most union and non-union companies work in harmony together, side by side.



that sounds nice


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## nap

22rifle said:


> Pretty hard to make charges stick on the provocation.
> 
> You do know he wasn't threatening them with the sledgehammers don't you? You know he put them there to tempt the union thugs to smash the radio right?


 
Uh, ya, sure. 3 sledgehammers to kill a radio as well as the threat of 5 mason to come out and whip some ass.


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## nap

> =grizl;511080]Whatever dude,
> these union *** friends of yours are actively trying to shut my families company down.


but what have they actually done to you? The mason is the one that has threatened bodily harm.




> We get full benefits, and good pay. We can do the work cheaper because their is less overhead.


and where is the extra overhead merely because of being union? 



> They are assholes, they chant all day. Most days is fine, today its getting old. The story about the masons was funny I thought. What else can you do. Any suggestions?


Sure. Ignore them. They have the legal right to be on public property.



> Exactly, nothing. Ignore them till the end of my career.


There ya go.



> Or till they succeed.


 success to them is your comnpany becoming union. If you don;t want to , then don't.



> You think the industry would go downhill huh?
> that's neat. I don't think so.


Not the industry, the country. It is much bigger than "the industry". Just look what the illegal workers are doing to everybody.



> Ya know I don't care if your union or not, but if your gonna yell at me all day like these subhuman losers.


You must be thinned skin or something. I work in noisy environments all the time. I ignore the noise.

When they do something illegal, call the cops. Until then, ignore them. And yes, following you can be seen as illegal, depending on the totality of the situation.




> I'm thinkin' of taking action into my own hand.
> who knows tomorrow i could go back to laughing it off or it could be the day I snap. chanting negativity at me all day. concealed carry permit huh. I look into getting one. though I'm usually to busy working to carry a gun. union guys in my area don't have that problem.


Here's where I say: whatever dude!



> That is not what I'm saying. There are a few large union companies in our city. Perhaps they set the bar too high. I just heard yesterday on the radio from an economic expert of some kind that unions Artificially Inflate the Industry. Bing, that makes a lot of sense.


artificially inflate the industry? what the hell is that supposed to mean. The market drives the pricing, not the union. If the union shops are overpriced, they will fail. Apparently enough companies are utilizing their services. When jobs are bid, you are more than welcome to run over there and bid on the jobs as well. If you are low bid, you get the job.

Pretty simple.


> Picketing is common practice with unions, it's how they compete.


No, that is not how we compete. We bid on jobs just like you do. If the union shop got the job, there is a reason. We picket to inform the public that the jobs we are picketing are employing non-union companies. We work very hard to let the public know in other ways that many non-union contractors pay sub-standard wages and limited, it any, benefits. We are very active in the political circles.



> Dirty competition.


Dirty competition? How is that? You are free to do anything they do. Actually, how do you even see the picketing as competition at all? 



> If a company start doing good, they might try an stamp you out.


actually, no, they do not want to stamp you out. They want to unionize you.


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## MALCO.New.York

It is called a "Terroristic Threat" _and_ "Simple Assault". Could even be "Aggravated Assault" because of the Sledge Hammers. Since there were 3, a Fooked-up Cop would charge him with 3 counts!!!!


"In the United States, assault may refer only to the *threat of violence* caused by an immediate show of force." (sledgehammers)


Four elements were required at common law:

1:The apparent, present ability to carry out;
2:An unlawful attempt;
3:To commit a violent injury;
4:Upon another.



Terroristic Threat:


A terroristic threat is a crime generally involving a threat to commit violence communicated with the intent to terrorize another, to cause evacuation of a building, or to cause serious public inconvenience, in reckless disregard of the risk of causing such terror or inconvenience. It may mean an offense against property or involving danger to another person that may include but is not limited to recklessly endangering another person, harassment, stalking, ethnic intimidation, and criminal mischief.
The following is an example of a Texas statute dealing with terroristic threats:

TERRORISTIC THREAT

(a) A person commits an offense if he threatens to commit any offense involving violence to any person or property with intent to:
cause a reaction of any type to his threat by an official or volunteer agency organized to deal with emergencies;
place any person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury;
prevent or interrupt the occupation or use of a building; room; place of assembly; place to which the public has access; place of employment or occupation; aircraft, automobile, or other form of conveyance; or other public place;
cause impairment or interruption of public communications, public transportation, public water, gas, or power supply or other public service;
place the public or a substantial group of the public in fear of serious bodily injury; or
influence the conduct or activities of a branch or agency of the federal government, the state, or a political subdivision of the state.

But.............Who gives a Rats arse!? Intimidate away!!!


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## grizl

Wow ********************** That much is certain. Yet, I can tell from your superior logic that you are a man who really know what he's talking about. So I concede completely. Thank-you for taking the time to quote every statement I made and refuting each and every one. I bet you could argue all day. You should be proud, really proud. 

9 times out of 10 I think getting yelled at by pathetic unemployed losers is comical, yesterday it got a little under my skin. Thank-you for being there to jump on me.
:w00t:



*(Guys. This isn't Union Versus Non-Union. It is about ones safety concerns.)*
*Ed*


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## nap

LocalSoljah said:


> I have a job going in Milwaukee right now and by talking with the other trades, seems the union is very weak in wisconsin being its a right to work state. I believe the union should stay strong to keep wages up for everyone but not at the expense of threats or physical violence.


 
Wisconsin is not a right to work state.


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## nap

grizl said:


> ******************That much is certain. Yet, I can tell from your superior logic that you are a man who really know what he's talking about. So I concede completely. Thank-you for taking the time to quote every statement I made and refuting each and every one. I bet you could argue all day. You should be proud, really proud.
> 
> 9 times out of 10 I think getting yelled at by pathetic unemployed losers is comical, yesterday it got a little under my skin. Thank-you for being there to jump on me.
> :w00t:


I quoted each section so as to be able to address each section seperately. So how am I ******** for telling you to call the cops if these guys do something illegal but until they do, they are within their legal rights to picket. Do you have a problem with law abiding citizens? It seems those on your job are the ones considering illegal actions.

I see you have failed to support your position as well. If you really believe what you are saying, then provide at least some reasonable explanation (such as the overhead comment). You toss out claims and statements with no explanation let alone supporting information.



and who says these guys are unemployed. In my local, many of the guys that picket are fully employed. They take off time to picket because we believe in our cause; every man is entitled to a decent wage, decent and safe working conditions, written work rules so everybody knows the rules to the game, and a reasonable level of benefits.

I'm still trying to figure out why you are so adverse to becoming a union contractor. You claim your pay and bene's compare with union scale so why make so much grief for yourself?


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## MALCO.New.York

Would you Guys just shut the Fook up. This petty quarreling is silly. BE MEN! If not? Go Home.


Have your opinions..........But if someone disagrees, that is their right and allow them to have it.


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## woodchuck2

Unions are one of the reason why our economy is in such a hole. Why would we expect an employer to pay a huge benifit package on top of a good salary if he can import his product from overseas for alot less money due to the fact that the overseas labor force works for less money and little or no beneifits. IMO unions push greed, in turn they push business overseas and in the end the union is without a job. If the union guys are standing out picketing maybe they should think about how the scab is working and paying their bills and how they are not. Alot of local guys found out the hard way here about 5-6yrs ago. They went on strike at the local paper mill for over a year. They did intentional damage at the mill, slashed tires on the scabs cars, followed them home and threatened them. In the end over half the strikers lost their jobs, the others that were allowed to come back did so with pay cuts and some even lost their seniority. The scabs were given a good benifit package and good wages for a job that they normally wouldnt have gotten unless someone retired or quit. Some of the union workers who lost their jobs also lost their cars, their homes and were forced to take lesser paying jobs to survive. Do you think the union reps cared? They still got payed as well as the union attorneys. So who really loses?


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## K2

> if he can import his product from overseas for alot less money due to the fact that the overseas labor force works for less money and little or no beneifits.


There lies the problem. Why deal with our own labor issues at home when you can buy the same products made by 9 year old girls in foreign countries cheaper?.. Just like why would you pay 400 k for a home built buy U.S. labor when you you can buy the same home built by border crossers for 300k?... At least the union hasn't giving up on U.S. labor yet.

In the days when men were men the govt and their cronies would send in machine guns to break organized labor. Now they just hand you the knife and let you cut your own throat..


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## neolitic

K2 said:


> There lies the problem. Why deal with our own labor issues at home when you can buy the same products made by 9 year old girls in foreign countries cheaper?.. Just like why would you pay 400 k for a home built buy U.S. labor when you you can buy the same home built by border crossers for 300k?... At least the union hasn't giving up on U.S. labor yet.
> 
> In the days when men were men the govt and their cronies would send in machine guns to break organized labor. Now they just hand you the knife and let you cut your own throat..


:clap::clap::laughing:

Boys and girls? Can we say "Walmart"?


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## Celtic

grizl,
I'm curious....did you even speak to any of the reps at the picket line or reps at the union hall?

By reps, I do not mean the rank and file guys I mean the actual union reps ~ Business Agents.


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## Cdat

joasis said:


> One lesson I learned long ago about dogs and bullies.....99% of the time, it is all bluff....the 1% you need to know how to fight or bite harder then the dog....if faced with 20 guys...yeah, it would be scary, but I am just hard headed enough to tell the head bozo I won't be alone at the hospital....I would take one or more with me...and I know this tactic works. There is strength, or in this case, intimidation with numbers, but how brave would the head duck be with *a 24 ounce claw hammer buried in his shoulder*... *So how many other guys would do what i would do? Not back off an inch? *


Could I suggest a underhanded swing with the claw to embed in the crotch with a good hard swift jerk up?! You'll remove the 1st threat entirely and I can promise you that the rest will hesitate long enough to take another one or two out...:whistling


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## grizl

Celtic said:


> grizl,
> I'm curious....did you even speak to any of the reps at the picket line or reps at the union hall?
> 
> By reps, I do not mean the rank and file guys I mean the actual union reps ~ Business Agents.


As I said before my father is the owner, so any real negotiating had to be done by him. He of course has met with head guys before. He has nothing good to say. I get the impression they want him to join up or move out of the way. I don't really see either of those happening anytime soon.


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## oldrivers

Justbuilding said:


> Out of curiosity, if your company "pays similiar benefits/ wages" what is the advantage to being non-union?


---------------------------


I believe once you sign a contract with the union you always have to be union. say you start on big million dollar commercial jobs such as wallmarts, sky scrappers, apartments etc , your able to pay your guys salaries and benefits because your dealing with millions of dollars, lets say that kind of work slows down and you arent getting those size jobs anymore and you have to settle for some residential jobs now your dealing in thousands and not millions anymore, but since you have a union contract your unable to lower your costs, the benefit of being non union is is you can do any job you want flexibility without getting heavy fines from the union for breaking the union contracts. 



as far as unions keeping wages up i disagree for the same reason , unions are used to dealing with big million dollar commercial jobs once they start working on residential jobs that arent soley union their costs are over inflated based on the commercial jobs millions so the residential contractor who has a smaller limited budget- homeowner versus -commercial , has to make cuts elsewere meaning hiring illegals or others who are willing to work for alot less to do the other trades. unions are good for unions maybe but they hurt other non union trades because like i said homeowners are forced to pay the piper union shops because they do the liscensed trades that are required by law and since the homeowner has a limited budget their forced to cut others bids . as far as im concerned unions could stay out of residential so the rest of us could get a bigger piece of the pie. 
the union guy obviously doesnt underdstand that some jobs have limited budgets unlike govt spending commercial etc . :whistling


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## Celtic

oldrivers said:


> I believe once you sign a contract with the union you always have to be union. say you start on big million dollar commercial jobs such as wallmarts, sky scrappers, apartments etc , your able to pay your guys salaries and benefits because your dealing with millions of dollars, lets say that kind of work slows down and you arent getting those size jobs anymore and you have to settle for some residential jobs now your dealing in thousands and not millions anymore, but since you have a union contract your unable to lower your costs, the benefit of being non union is is you can do any job you want flexibility without getting heavy fines from the union for breaking the union contracts.


Many unions have different pay scales based on the type work performed..ie, industrial/heavy commercial; light commercial/residential; maintenance, etc


Not every union contractor deals exclusively in multi-million dollar projects. Many do - but not all...and there is no requirement to.


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## Chris Johnson

My electricians company just quit the union...I don't know how, actually the company got kicked out of the union. So it can be done...


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## Justbuilding

oldrivers said:


> ---------------------------
> 
> 
> I believe once you sign a contract with the union you always have to be union. say you start on big million dollar commercial jobs such as wallmarts, sky scrappers, apartments etc , your able to pay your guys salaries and benefits because your dealing with millions of dollars, lets say that kind of work slows down and you arent getting those size jobs anymore and you have to settle for some residential jobs now your dealing in thousands and not millions anymore, but since you have a union contract your unable to lower your costs, the benefit of being non union is is you can do any job you want flexibility without getting heavy fines from the union for breaking the union contracts.
> 
> 
> 
> as far as unions keeping wages up i disagree for the same reason , unions are used to dealing with big million dollar commercial jobs once they start working on residential jobs that arent soley union their costs are over inflated based on the commercial jobs millions so the residential contractor who has a smaller limited budget- homeowner versus -commercial , has to make cuts elsewere meaning hiring illegals or others who are willing to work for alot less to do the other trades. unions are good for unions maybe but they hurt other non union trades because like i said homeowners are forced to pay the piper union shops because they do the liscensed trades that are required by law and since the homeowner has a limited budget their forced to cut others bids . as far as im concerned unions could stay out of residential so the rest of us could get a bigger piece of the pie.
> the union guy obviously doesnt underdstand that some jobs have limited budgets unlike govt spending commercial etc . :whistling


My area has lower union rates for residential then commercial. Perhaps I misunderstand you but it appears that you are saying because you are a nonunion company you will jerk the wages of your employees around up and down depending on the size of the job? How do your employees handle that? 

I have to chuckle about the budget comment. All clients are the same, they all want more for less and they all have a budget. 

Your comment about wanting to get a bigger piece of the pie makes me believe that perhaps you could become a union member after all.:thumbup:


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## nap

> =oldrivers;513548]---------------------------
> 
> 
> I believe once you sign a contract with the union you always have to be union.


Nope. You're wrong. Being a union employer is a contractual agreement and you can leave the union. It just doesn;t happen at the drop of a hat though. You have to wat until your contract expires.



> say you start on big million dollar commercial jobs such as wallmarts, sky scrappers, apartments etc , your able to pay your guys salaries and benefits because your dealing with millions of dollars, lets say that kind of work slows down and you arent getting those size jobs anymore and you have to settle for some residential jobs now your dealing in thousands and not millions anymore, but since you have a union contract your unable to lower your costs, the benefit of being non union is is you can do any job you want flexibility without getting heavy fines from the union for breaking the union contracts.


You really have no idea about the unions, do you. There are union EC's in my area that do a lot of resi work. As a matter of afact, they have done a lot of services for modular homes and maintenaince in mobile home parks. So, tell my why the union costs are so much greater than non-union shops?







> as far as unions keeping wages up i disagree for the same reason , unions are used to dealing with big million dollar commercial jobs once they start working on residential jobs that arent soley union their costs are over inflated based on the commercial jobs millions so the residential contractor who has a smaller limited budget- homeowner versus -commercial , has to make cuts elsewere meaning hiring illegals or others who are willing to work for alot less to do the other trades. unions are good for unions maybe but they hurt other non union trades because like i said homeowners are forced to pay the piper union shops because they do the liscensed trades that are required by law and since the homeowner has a limited budget their forced to cut others bids . as far as im concerned unions could stay out of residential so the rest of us could get a bigger piece of the pie.
> the union guy obviously doesnt underdstand that some jobs have limited budgets unlike govt spending commercial etc


again, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. The union shops have to compete, dollar for dollar against the non-union shops. Where do you get the idea that simply becuase a union shop wants to do a job, they get it, regardless of cost? They bid work just like everybody else does. If they can't compete on cost, they just don't get the job. How is that wrong?


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## Brickie

simplejack said:


> Hey! they passed out color fliers with a RAT eating the American Flag with my company name on it! I have one framed and hung in my office, I thought it was just me! LOL!
> 
> you mean the Rat is there official symbol of "scab" contractors?! this is awesome! :laughing:


 
Yeah, back in the day when I was union organizer we loved taking the rat out. Oh well, we all had our "*youthful* *indiscretions"*




> Unions once had their place in the United States, they now cause more harm than good.


 
I agree


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## Stevelsc8721

*Obama*

If any of us fellow workers listen to Sean or Rush the sec. of labors statement Alan Wreigh's ,about white workers should not be considered to work on the new deal with roads and bridges in Lew of black and others is a joke. Has anyone else heard this quote yet?

What was once good is now done, the Dem's and socialism have taken over, where are the white workers going to work now?

Unions and construction better unite and fight this now!


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## Brickie

Stevelsc8721 said:


> If any of us fellow workers listen to Sean or Rush the sec. of labors statement Alan Wreigh's ,about white workers should not be considered to work on the new deal with roads and bridges in Lew of black and others is a joke. Has anyone else heard this quote yet?
> 
> What was once good is now done, the Dem's and socialism have taken over, where are the white workers going to work now?
> 
> Unions and construction better unite and fight this now!


 
Yes, I saw that on tv the former Labor Secretary during Clinton & Obama economic "advisor", make these racist comments.


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## roof-lover

"Yes, I saw that on tv the former Labor Secretary during Clinton & Obama economic "advisor", make these racist comments. "




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opxuUj6vFa4&feature=channel_page


Unreal untill you see it for yourself.


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