# Tile over linoleum



## ODDBALLS (Jul 27, 2007)

When is it ok to lay tile over linoleum? What are the best methods?


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## CCSowner (Nov 9, 2007)

ummmm never....you should rip it up down to the plywood and add durock or something along those lines.



ODDBALLS said:


> When is it ok to lay tile over linoleum? What are the best methods?


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## EricTheHandyman (Jan 29, 2008)

I have seen free-floating snap together tiles at the home center for that situation, just slap them together and add grout, but I don't know if they will hold up over time. I would personally strip off the linoleum and do it right.


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## ODDBALLS (Jul 27, 2007)

That is what I thought, but lateley I have stripped/redone some tile floors where they laid right over the linoleum. Now, to jump ship, what is the best way to strip stubborn linoleum?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

ODDBALLS said:


> what is the best way to strip stubborn linoleum?


If there's luaun under it, I use my circular saw set to the depth of the luaun and cut the floor into a 3' x 3' grid, pry bar and it's all good. Can get messy though.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Here's why not to install ceramic and stone tile over vinyl....

http://www.thefloorpro.com/articles/tile_over_vinyl_flooring.php


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## Angus (Jul 12, 2007)

Schluter Systems says you can, when properly prepped, install Ditra over a sucurely adhered vinyl floor. We have not, and will not do it. I think there is to much that could go wrong. I mean, without seeing the substrate, how can anyone give a warranty on something they cant even see?

That said, tear it all out and start new. It will be more labor now, but a smoother and much better install in the long run. Your customer will be happier with the finished product. And you can sleep better knowing you did it right and not worry if its going to come back and bite you! My 2 cents. Hope it helped. 

Also, Buds article above is good. Print it and let your customer read it.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

By all means..........

Please help yourself, that's what it's there for. Anything we can do as a group in an effort to somehow standardize some realistic methods and techniques can only benefit the customer and the industry.

http://www.thefloorpro.com/articles/...l_flooring.php


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

Showoff!!


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Hey I was trying to warn one your followers over at GardenWeb about you............:whistling


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

I saw that. Thank you very little!!


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## ODDBALLS (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the info guys. I thought that it wasn't a good idea. I've had a couple of guys around here tell me that the linoleum acts like a crack supresent. Just did'nt sound right to me.


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

Not the first time I've heard that, and in a manner of speaking, they're right. Unfortunately, it creates more problems than it solves. :thumbsup:


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Actually it's an "Isolation Membrane", and in some cases may make a good isolation membrane if it weren't for:

Some people can't tell cushion vinyl from peanut butter and cushion vinyl is always an absolute no-no.

Some people can't tell if the vinyl was perimeter glued or totally glued.

Some people can't determine if the vinyl glue( if there is any) is still bonded to the substrate.

Some people can't figure out how to remove the edge curl.

Some people can't determine if a luan underlayment exists under the vinyl.

Some people can't determine if there is movement in the existing vinyl/underlayment package.

Some people can't spend money for modified thinset and they use unmodified.

Some people didn't mind that their new expensive tile installations log-term-survival depended on the bond of the adhesive of the previous vinyl floor installtion. :bangin::wallbash:


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## ODDBALLS (Jul 27, 2007)

Yeah, I'll just stick to scraping to the slab and laying the right way. Thanks for the lesson gentelman....where?:thumbup::notworthy


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

kernel angus 100% there in illinois has the best photo. He really looks military, much more than colonel sanders.


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

ODDBALLS said:


> Yeah, I'll just stick to scraping to the slab and laying the right way.


With the right tools, it's not even all that difficult to take up-- especially off of concrete!


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## ODDBALLS (Jul 27, 2007)

That brings up a good point. I am getting ready to tile a kithen, entryway, bathrooms, all the usual places. I stripped the kitchen and others so far. The entry is very tricky. It is linoleum. The top layer has/is coming up and seperating from the paper/stuck down part. What do you guys suggest. Thanks.


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

I had exactly the same problem in a home I did last year. Using the same machine and blade as in the picture above, this was the end result:


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## orson (Nov 23, 2007)

If mine eyes do not decieve me that's a Bosch SDS Max hammerdrill, but where do you get that bit?

www.rubycon.us
Ruby Construction LLC 
Lancaster Kitchen Remodeling
Lancaster Bathroom Remodeling


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

11316EVS. The bit is a 6" SDS Max scaling bit, put out by Bosch. If you have trouble finding it at one of the tool places by where you are, get back to me, and I'll see about picking one up here, and we can do something, provided you have Paypal. Just a caution-- you'll find out yourself if you CAN find it locally- that bit is about 275.00, and worth every single penny. It's worth its weight in gold!!


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## ODDBALLS (Jul 27, 2007)

THat seems like a good way to do it. Right now I do not have a hammer drill and don't know where to getthat bit. I am going to get them though. That being said, I do need to getthis job going. I could swear that I have heard of people ripping up the design/plasticy/top layer of linoleum and exposing the paper/ Then they soak the paper in some kind of solution. I can't recall if it is mineral spirits or whatever. Do you guys know of anything?


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

There's nothing you can use and expect the tile to stick afterwards, including mineral spirits. As for some place to buy the jack hammer, I bought it off ebay brand new for 500.00. The cheapest I could find it locally was about 800.00 and I know one contractor I used to sub from bought his for 1100.00. 

Just a thought. 


http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Bosch-SDS-M...yZ104216QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

As of 8:18 eastern, 1 day 14 hours left. Bid's at 366.19, no reserve, on a brand new unit.


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

I paid $265 for mine, about 5 years ago.

Lets settle some confusion, just for the sake of a tiny bit of education. Sheet vinyl is not linoleum!!! Two totally different products. The only thing in common with both is, they come in sheet form.
Linoleum has a Jute backing, with no plastic film to peel off of a fiberglass backing. or PVC


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## ODDBALLS (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the education about the difference floordude. I really appreciate any advice/info/education I can get.


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## beachremodlr (Jan 14, 2008)

*Handheld pneumatic chissel*

You can go to Lowes, Ace hardware or many other tool suppliers and get a handheld air chissel with bits for around $20. The blade is much more narrow than the one bill has but I have used mine for entire floors. It just hooks to your compressor and your ready. It will take a while, but you could be surprised at the amount progress you'll see once you get started. If it ware our, buy another until you make enought to buy a big bosch, you can also rent the big scrapper/hammerdrill for a day or whatever from tool rental shops.
P.S. Don't overwork the compressor with the handheld, it will demand alot of air from the chissel


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## CCSowner (Nov 9, 2007)

Just to let you guys know I have seen the same hammer that Bill has in rental stores. Might want to check a few.


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## trav007 (Jan 25, 2008)

For 275 bucks for a drill bit I think it might make more sense to take an old sds bit and a rigid 6" taping knife to your welding buddy for a little "get together". Not sure of the alloy compatibility but I'm sure something will work.

As far as lying over lino I did a small area once 5 years ago as an experiment. No problems yet. I also laid over the backing of cushion vinyl after peeling the top away. That was three years ago now....still no problems and apparently the kid in the house likes to play soccer in the kitchen.

Ther was a quote from somewhere that says.." always ask the experts to see what can't be done and then do it anyways " or something like that.
I don't think anything can't be done....sometimes you just have to get creative about how to accomplish it. Just don't try it for the first time on a 1000 sqr. ft. project that someone is paying you large for. That's all for now.
good luck


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

So then your ads should read:

Custom Kreations 
of British Columbia
"Where quality is just another word in the dictionary".​:thumbup:


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

trav007 said:


> For 275 bucks for a drill bit I think it might make more sense to take an old sds bit and a rigid 6" taping knife to your welding buddy for a little "get together". Not sure of the alloy compatibility but I'm sure something will work.


IF you can get ahold of an old bit, you can get replacement blades for that bit for 28.00 a piece. That IF's a big word, though. I don't know of a single person who's bought one who'd even consider getting rid of it, unless it was completely trashed.

As for going over the lino, the following is from my site, copied and pasted:

_This is a subject that's very hotly debated within the industry. It seems every manufacturer has a thinset that they say can be used over resilient flooring (sheet vinyl) or vinyl tile. The problem with that is twofold. With all the different types of vinyl flooring out now, it's tough to know which ones can, and which ones can't be tiled over. Cushioned vinyl's are out. They can compress, causing voids under the tile, ultimately causing failure. Also, not all sheet vinyl is glued solid to the floor. A lot of times, vinyl installers will only glue the edges and spot glue in the center, and if you thinset the tile to it, it won't stay very long. In my opinion, vinyl tiles are out, as well, due to the fact that the thinset bond is only as good as the bond of the surface under it, and I've seen vinyl tiles ( especially peel and stick) let go way too easily. The same is also true for sheet vinyl. The second problem with tiling over vinyl is the underlayments used for vinyl installation. Normally, in woodframe construction, there are one of several underlayments used-- luan, 1/4" particle board, 1/4" plywood, and sometimes even MDF (medium density fiberboard). ANY of those in a tile subfloor is a guaranteed failure. 1/4" plywood has a nasty habit of delaminating (the layers come apart). Luan has the same problem, plus it can compress to 1/2 its original thickness from normal residential foot traffic (I've seen this happen). Particle board (as well as MDF), just from humidity, can expand enough to pop tile loose. Any of those can cause failure, and unless you pull the vinyl, you don't know for sure whether the vinyl installer just went over the existing subfloor, or added one of the underlayments mentioned. All in all, it's an extremely risky installation, and my question is why, when spending the money it costs for a tile installation, would you want to gamble on it?_


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## trav007 (Jan 25, 2008)

What's with the trash talk Bud.!! Is that what these forums are intended to show, how insulting or witty one can be. I'm simply providing an alternative insight to the original question.

I guess you missed the part where I said "*experiment". *I don't know you and you don't know me, but you better believe that you can learn alot from trial and error or experimentation. But like I said don't experiment for the first time on someone elses project...Those were MY floors..... I'm glad you had the dictionary handy so you could at least spell quality correctly.:shutup:


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## sao95 (Feb 5, 2008)

Bud Cline said:


> So then your ads should read:
> 
> Custom Kreations
> of British Columbia
> "Where quality is just another word in the dictionary".​:thumbup:


wow that's a bit harsh. Really it would depend on how you define quality, if the finished products look the same and his job lasts as long as yours, then the quality is the same. Unfortunately there's no way to know if his installation has held up or how any of your's fair as well. 
Personally I tend to be a bit creative in how I approach things as well, I'm not a by the book person. I was a Seabee in a prior incarnation and I've seen a whole lot of creative solutions executed correctly work.


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## tyler durden (Jan 12, 2008)

I did one five years ago and it is still holding up. its like a membrane.

I cleaned, 60gt quick sand down, then used modified thinset.


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## MattCoops (Apr 7, 2006)

Tyler, 

sounds like you know what you're doing
Keep up the good work brother.


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## MattCoops (Apr 7, 2006)

sao95 said:


> I was a Seabee in a prior incarnation and I've seen a whole lot of creative solutions executed correctly work.




If I'm not mistaken, my beloved Marine Corps trains Seabee's as well as Naval Officers. 
First thing I learned in boot camp, from a Drill Instructor with a clean cover, was: Perfect Practice makes Perfect.


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## sao95 (Feb 5, 2008)

MattCoops said:


> If I'm not mistaken, my beloved Marine Corps trains Seabee's as well as Naval Officers.


In some things they trained us, I.E. Marine extreme Cold Weather Training, et cetera et cetera


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## [email protected] (Jan 22, 2008)

linoleum can be tiled over if u install a wire mesh first . which will only add about 1/8 " of thickness to your subfloor:notworthy


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## Forry (Feb 12, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> linoleum can be tiled over if u install a wire mesh first . which will only add about 1/8 " of thickness to your subfloor:notworthy





Huh.


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> linoleum can be tiled over if u install a wire mesh first . which will only add about 1/8 " of thickness to your subfloor:notworthy


Only if you need the practice so you can do it right when it comes back up. Lath and scratrch (also known as a "Jersey Mud Job") has been found by TCNA to cause failures in alot of the projects it's been used in. Not that there were failures where it was used, but that it was the direct cause.


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