# Billing



## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

After you've presented a client an invoice, how long do you wait until you pester them about payment? I've had several clients go three to four weeks before getting me my check, which is irritating. I've heard that, by law, once you've been given a bill you have two weeks to send a check. True?


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

kenscar said:


> After you've presented a client an invoice, how long do you wait until you pester them about payment? I've had several clients go three to four weeks before getting me my check, which is irritating. I've heard that, by law, once you've been given a bill you have two weeks to send a check. True?


 
About 5 minutes


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I feel your pain, Ken

I got a check TODAY that I've been waiting for for 7 GD weeks.

I had a letter ready to send the building owner...tattletaling on his property management company.
My favorite line line read: "I don't understand how anyone (or any company) can get away without paying bills at least once a month..I know I can't."

But now that I have the check, my fury has somewhat subsidded.

Does everyone in CO think us painters are so rich we don't need to be paid ASAP?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Do you guys not have a contract with payment terms? or on HO work do they not sign a return the proposal with a payment term listed at the bottom?

When I am working for a owner/builder I invoice every 2nd Wednesday, check due on Friday...no checky, no worky on Monday

Builders, net 30d or they will negotiate to follow their draw schedule with the owner...which is usually better then waiting 30d


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

Most residential work is C.O.D.,Commercial usually takes a month but I push for 10 business days.Most are good about it.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I've never had to wait 7 weeks before, and I won't have to again.

I've worked for this building owner for 25 years...this is his new management company...we'll get it straitened out.


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

Residential repaints for me and its remainder on completion. There is no need to send me the check when I am there to collect it. They see the work is done and completed. I warranty my work if there's a problem down the road and its my fault I will take care of it.

The home owners assoc. I do work with its usually no longer then 14 days after invoice is submitted.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Yeah...residential is always "balance due upon completion"... and I've never had a problem.

Property management companies aren't as simple. I called and talked to the bookkeeper 2 weeks ago.. and got a "I'll be writing that check today" from her.

what a pain


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## 98mustangguy (Sep 6, 2007)

rbsremodeling said:


> About 5 minutes


Same here I do a final walk around then get the owner and do a final wilk around with them and expect paymnet right then. Contract even states payment is due imediately upon completion. no way would i wait 3-4 weeks i need to eat too:furious:


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## paintr56 (Feb 4, 2005)

kenscar said:


> After you've presented a client an invoice, how long do you wait until you pester them about payment? I've had several clients go three to four weeks before getting me my check, which is irritating. I've heard that, by law, once you've been given a bill you have two weeks to send a check. True?


My policy is payment upon completion. 95% of the time I leave the final day of work with a check. I make arrangements for this the day before I am to finish. Customers I have built a relationship with I may have them mail me a check if they can not be around or I will pick it up later in the day or the next morning. The exception to this is if prior plans have been made and I am choosy about making them. I do work for the county about once a year I know they pay two days a month and expect to wait. I am currently waiting on a national guard check but I was told they take a long time and bid accordingly. 

Jim


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## mark942 (Feb 18, 2008)

Chris Johnson said:


> Do you guys not have a contract with payment terms? or on HO work do they not sign a return the proposal with a payment term listed at the bottom?
> \



IMO Chris has hit the nail right on the head..................:thumbsup:


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

A lot of my clients quit asking for contracts years ago. If I don't have a contract then I have no recourse other than re-fax a bill, or call them on the phone.

BTW...I've NEVER not been paid, but I've had to wait a month plenty of times.

But again..I'm talking commercial. Residential is simpler.


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## gideond (May 17, 2007)

Being a retail store we work a bit differently. We bill everything out at the end of the month and our invoices clearly state you have 30 days to pay before you start to accrue interest charges. At 2% per month people usually pay in a timely manner. There are still people who take 2-3 months to pay and then raise hell about finance charges showing up on their statements, despite a clearly stated notice on their bill.


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

Some good points here. I've been meaning to put payment terms on the bottom of my invoices - "payment due within ten business days" or something like that. But then if you still don't get paid what can you do and still maintain a good relationship with the client? Most GC's seem to be in the same boat - they have to get payment draws from the HO before they pay me, or that's how they play it. I'm doing some T&M jobs right now and that's REALLY a billing pain. Sometimes at the end of a job I'll spend weeks going back to the site to touch up this and that - but I can't wait that long to get a check. So do I just do the little touch-ups pro bono? I think NOT! I've never not been paid either, but I've waited over a month for a check a couple of times while my bank account drains down to 0. There's got to be a better way.


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

Ahh the joys of working for GC's its good not to be in that boat :whistling


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm going to (on my next bill to that "paying me in 7-weeks" company) add to the bottom of my invoice some "terms".. Probably 1.5% per month. I don't work for them often though.

I do understand your problem though, Kenscar.

If we make too big a deal about needing money (to me anyhow) you/I seem less "stable" as a business.

..but if you DON'T make a fuss...you're liable to no longer be in business at all.

(and that seems even less stable)


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I've thought about: "payment due within 10 days, lien placed on property after 30"

now THAT would get some action!

Not many call-backs though.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Ken here is what my contract and draw schedule looks like. I am providing it for a guideline only. Always have an attorney review all legal documents. 

This contract will self destruct in 15 days if not accepted

View attachment rb contract2_J91.doc


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Pretty decent lookin', rbs.

I don't know about kenscar..but if I show up @ most of my old clients places w/an 8 page contract, they'd probably think it was a joke.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

..maybe not if it was for a 150k job though!


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> ..maybe not if it was for a 150k job though!


 
My contracts are usually 8-20 pages long the estimate is embedded into the contract then legal jargon then draw schedule. I think that one was a kitchen, bath and garage rehab


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks for that, RBS. That's most definitely a thorough contract. How long does it take for you to put a contract like that together? You had all the sq. feet broken down. I haven't been quite that formal with my GC's around here yet but, I think I might start.

Steve - you're so right about not wanting to look like you NEED the money too badly. It doesn't make your company look good. At some point I'd like to be solvent enough that I have a good chunk of change to fall back on - for supplies at the beginning of a job etc. But for now I'm paycheck-to-paycheck. It's tough. Maybe I should have stuck it out with IATSE.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

kenscar said:


> Thanks for that, RBS. That's most definitely a thorough contract. How long does it take for you to put a contract like that together? You had all the sq. feet broken down. I haven't been quite that formal with my GC's around here yet but, I think I might start.
> 
> Steve - you're so right about not wanting to look like you NEED the money too badly. It doesn't make your company look good. At some point I'd like to be solvent enough that I have a good chunk of change to fall back on - for supplies at the beginning of a job etc. But for now I'm paycheck-to-paycheck. It's tough. Maybe I should have stuck it out with IATSE.


I have invested a fortune trying out and testing software. The one I use know is really for medium to large remodeling contractors in my opinion. 

That estimate took 2 hours to produce. The contract is a template of many in the system takes to 5 minutes to write and maybe an hour or two proof read. 

The system cost me like 2-3k if I remember correctly.

I have been complimented many times by homeowners on the contract and the wording. I stripped out my logo and some other stuff but it is clear and concise to most homeowners.

After your reptutation is built up more you get your money up front. Look at my draw schedule again start of each phase. I am not a bank I do not finance projects, you should get your money up front 90 percent of the time.

If your reputation and ethics are solid it should not be problem:thumbsup:


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks again, RBS. This website is the greatest!


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

kenscar said:


> But for now I'm paycheck-to-paycheck. It's tough. Maybe I should have stuck it out with IATSE.



Don't start second guessing your choices.
My first December in business (1980), my gross receipts were a whopping $225. My wife even commented "maybe you should go back and work for someone else".

But I stuck with it, and the rest is...well......nothing.

Seriously though, I never got rich, but I never had a boss or punched a time clock either.


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah - not having a boss is fantastic. Worth the stress and struggle of figuring out billing and finances. Still want to get rich, though. Figure I have a better shot at it doing this straight painting than I did being an artist.


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

kenscar said:


> Yeah - not having a boss is fantastic. Worth the stress and struggle of figuring out billing and finances. Still want to get rich, though. Figure I have a better shot at it doing this straight painting than I did being an artist.



There's not many rich painters no matter what kind of painting you do. Not too many people sitting around saying they want to get rich and the light bulb goes off and they say " I am gonna start a painting company"


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I dunno, Mak.

Some of the guys here probably have the right idea. 

Have 20 , 40 or 60 painters, and net $10~$20 an hour profit from each one...you could get pretty wealthy doing that.

Might end up in the nuthouse too though.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

..not that I'm far from that as well.


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

That's the way to do it, Steve. Go BIG. Hire a couple of crews. But around here, you'd be hard pressed to find one or two reliable guys with a decent work ethic, much less a couple dozen. That's why my big plan is to be a faux finish/restoration guy. The best faux finish/restoration guy on the planet in fact. There's good money in that work if you can find it. I do it about 50% of the time. It's just a matter of getting your name out there.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Well at least you have a plan!

I haven't been to BV in a few years, have they starting building "big"?

I used to come there pretty often...back before they RUINED Cottonwood lake. We used to camp right where the parking lot is now, and fish where the "fishing docks" are built out into the water. The last time I was there, I didn't even wet my line. I watched some guy sailboard for awhile, and then drove elsewhere in semi-disgust.

sorry for the rant...


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

Ah . . . Cottonwood Lake. It's still nice there in the off-season. If you want the real fishing, you have to hike to one of the hundreds of high-mountain lakes we have around here. That's the only way to get away from the hordes.

This area is booming all right. Three major developments going in right now. It sort of makes me sick, but there's no stopping progress as long as people keep having babies and filling the earth with their drooling spawn. Damn Mormons. And Catholics. And fertility clinics. Oh well - more to paint!


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

Not to turn this into a religious thread but it is not the Catholics and Mormons we have to worry about over populating the world.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I've found places where I/we can be alone (sometimes) here in CO (I've lived here since I was 4). But they're a long drive from home.

When I was working in Granby last year, I heard tell of another big-build on in Hot Sulphur Springs. Never made it over there to see what the fuss was about though.

I mostly just work on the flatlands. And I don't ski... so I pretty much avoid the mtns altogether after hunting season. Which I've also started avoiding after my last hunting trip several years ago. It got down to 8 below, 3 nights in a row (I was in a camper shell) and I decided I was just too damn old for it anymore.

BTW..that was near a little town called Tincup. I bet you know the place.


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

MakDeco - if not them then who? If you're talking about the illegal immigrants (I'm not assuming - although there is definitely an anti-illegal immigrant tone in many of the threads on this site) most of them are Catholic.


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

Hey Steve - I was up by Tincup pass just a few days ago. I gather you're down on the front range - Colorado Springs, Pueblo, Denver or Fort Collins?

The housing market is sure taking a dive down there these days, ain't it? Hard times for painters that's for sure.

_What_ was this thread about again?


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Catholics that don't pay their bills, Ken.

Yeah, Denver


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

kenscar said:


> MakDeco - if not them then who? If you're talking about the illegal immigrants (I'm not assuming - although there is definitely an anti-illegal immigrant tone in many of the threads on this site) most of them are Catholic.


 I would think in the far future that Hindu's and Orientals would be the ethnics groups that will explode in population. I would think that most european ancestry would lose numbers in population


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

Mmmmaybe. I see your point for sure - China is the most populous country on Earth by far but Hindus and Orientals don't believe "every sperm is sacred" like Catholics and Mormons do, do they? I haven't seen many Asian families with more than one or two kids. I suppose if they do have litters of kids like Catholics and Mormons are encouraged to do that just means there'll be more stuff for us to paint!

Yay.


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

kenscar said:


> Mmmmaybe. I see your point for sure - China is the most populous country on Earth by far but Hindus and Orientals don't believe "every sperm is sacred" like Catholics and Mormons do, do they? I haven't seen many Asian families with more than one or two kids. I suppose if they do have litters of kids like Catholics and Mormons are encouraged to do that just means there'll be more stuff for us to paint!
> 
> Yay.


China didn't do the whole one kid thing till what maybe 10 yrs ago? maybe longer but they did it for a reason . If any Chatholic group is pumping ou the babies it would be the hispanic Catholics in Mexico and South America. Mormons may have a lot of kids but there's just not enough Mormons to make a big dent in world pop numbers.


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

Back to the original topic - Does anyone here give written guarantees? I've been going with three years exterior, four years interior against defects in workmanship - stated on my invoices. Good? Bad? Discuss.


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

Two years exterior no more, not with the weather around here, one year on decks.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

kenscar said:


> Back to the original topic - Does anyone here give written guarantees? I've been going with three years exterior, four years interior against defects in workmanship - stated on my invoices. Good? Bad? Discuss.


 
I give 1 year warranties standard 5 years at an additional cost


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

How much extra for the five year warranty? That's a f'ing great idea actually.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

10 year on structural and 2 year on everything else. Never offered a 5 year warranty. I will go out up to 3 or 4 years depending on the client. Cheap fixes like a free door adjustment are good advertising.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

2 year warranty exterior (labor and materials, affected area(s) only)

0 years warranty interior...never even been asked for/about one though


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## remodeling joe (Feb 21, 2007)

wow!! rbs, pretty f____ng impressive. !! i just call tony to rough'em up when they're late on payment! ahhahaa!:laughing:


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## Newby (Apr 29, 2008)

I am a retired military person trying to start my own business. I chose paint because it is something I've done rom time to time and enjoy doing.
Now that I would like to make painting my livelyhood, I am seeking help in how to get started relative to landing my first job. I am primarily interested in repainting apartments. Can someone point me in the right direction?


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

This forum is a great place to start for that. Browse all the threads - you'll find lots of good info on here. I started my biz a little over a year ago and like anything there's a learning curve until you get in a groove. There's a lot to know about painting - it's not as easy as most people think - but it's not rocket science either.


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

FYI: If you browse all the threads here you'll find several related to billing and estimating jobs.


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## paint_booger (Jun 15, 2007)

kenscar said:


> This forum is a great place to start for that. Browse all the threads - you'll find lots of good info on here. I started my biz a little over a year ago and like anything there's a learning curve until you get in a groove. There's a lot to know about painting - it's not as easy as most people think - but it's not rocket science either.


Yes ... there is lot's of help here! Have you tried Paint Talk . Com also. I haven't seen you there. Replies are faster X 10!

http://www.painttalk.com/index.php

PB


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## plazaman (Apr 17, 2005)

MakDeco said:


> There's not many rich painters no matter what kind of painting you do. Not too many people sitting around saying they want to get rich and the light bulb goes off and they say " I am gonna start a painting company"


Mak, can you say the same for commercial and insutrial painting?


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

plazaman said:


> Mak, can you say the same for commercial and insutrial painting?


there's a difference between having money and being rich/wealthy.... I am sure there are painting co's are there that make a lot of money and maybe so of the owners live well. but come on wealthy??


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

remodeling joe said:


> wow!! rbs, pretty f____ng impressive. !! i just call tony to rough'em up when they're late on payment! ahhahaa!:laughing:


The 5 Year warranties start at 1500 and up. Depending on the project and equiptment used.


There are companies that will back the warranties for you.


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## kenscar (Mar 7, 2008)

What companies? Product manufacturers? Insurance co's?


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