# Advantages of Hardie over Ditra



## DemRem (Apr 21, 2012)

I did a quick search and found some old posts on ditra, but they didn't exactly address the question I want to here.

When dealing with a normal plywood subfloor I like ditra because uncoupling makes sense to me...BUT unlike ditra Hardie adds structural support because it's rigid and can be used over a nasty subfloor (like carpet glue etc.) because it is screwed down.

I have a tile job coming up and I was just wondering what you guys think...

Most of the time it seems like the subfloor could use some extra support and many times in kitchens and baths it's covered with vinyl and glue so I like being able to screw down my tile substrate...*is it worth sacrificing all that for an uncoupling feature?*


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

Hardie does NOT add strength, no CBU can make up for a sound sub floor. If you have holes, they need to be addressed by cut and replace or going over with another sheet of exterior grade ply. If there is a lot of deflection (more than L/360") more plywood is needed.

The only benifits I can think of for hardi over ditra would be the ability to use modified thinset if you feel more comfortable with it.

I personally have either used ditra or lath/scratch


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## r4r&r (Feb 22, 2012)

What's wrong with both?


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## Evan1968 (Dec 5, 2010)

DemRem said:


> Hardie adds structural support because it's rigid


100% false. Probably started by some know-nothing at Home Depot.


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

Evan1968 said:


> 100% false. Probably started by some know-nothing at Home Depot.


You can ruin it, we can help.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

r4r&r said:


> What's wrong with both?


Cost.


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## DemRem (Apr 21, 2012)

world llc said:


> Hardie does NOT add strength, no CBU can make up for a sound sub floor. If you have holes, they need to be addressed by cut and replace or going over with another sheet of exterior grade ply. If there is a lot of deflection (more than L/360") more plywood is needed.
> 
> The only benifits I can think of for hardi over ditra would be the ability to use modified thinset if you feel more comfortable with it.
> 
> I personally have either used ditra or lath/scratch


OK that's my mistake for assuming that it adds some support...but my other concern with ditra is that if you're replacing an existing floor the subfloor is often pretty nasty (like old glue on it etc.) I feel better having screws and thinset holding down the hardie rather than just having thinset with ditra and no screws. I would obviously try and remove as much of the glue as possible but I would still be concerned that the remaining residue would keep the thinset from sticking the ditra to the subfloor.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

To each their own but I feel that a membrane substrate is superior to a cementitious one. When you're mechanically attached to the subfloor, movement is transfer up to your tile installation. A membrane can prevent some of that in-plane movement from affecting your tile.


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## DemRem (Apr 21, 2012)

angus242 said:


> To each their own but I feel that a membrane substrate is superior to a cementitious one. When you're mechanically attached to the subfloor, movement is transfer up to your tile installation. A membrane can prevent some of that in-plane movement from affecting your tile.


Yeah I definitely like the fact that it uncouples the tile from the floor! I still wonder how well it actually sticks to the subfloor if the subfloor has been used before?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

You prep the floor properly. A 100 sq ft plywood subfloor takes no more than an hour to strip clean.


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## DemRem (Apr 21, 2012)

I guess the whole conversation on "Back Buttering Vs Back Troweling" got me thinking about not only the adhesion of the tile but the adhesion of the substrate to the subfloor. So maybe it's not really an issue...I was just curious.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

No matter how good a subfloor is when I take up what's on it I always put extra subfloor over it and glue and screw it then apply my ditra to that. This way you stiffen the floor and you get a good surface to apply your ditra to.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> No matter how good a subfloor is when I take up what's on it I always put extra subfloor over it and glue and screw it then apply my ditra to that. This way you stiffen the floor and you get a good surface to apply your ditra to.


What if you have an adjacent room that has existing 3/4" hardwood you need to match closely to?


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

angus242 said:


> What if you have an adjacent room that has existing 3/4" hardwood you need to match closely to?


Exactly ditra xl good as gold.......no extra ply needed


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> What if you have an adjacent room that has existing 3/4" hardwood you need to match closely to?


Funny enough never had that issue. Every job I have done since being over here has had 2 layers of sub floor either existing or from sub floor I have added my self so buy the time im done with the subfloor I'm level with the sub floor in the next room or pretty close then but the time I add ditra, thinset and tile I'm almost dead on the other room finished floor heights with carpet or hardwoods. A lot of houses in this area also have thresholds on the bathrooms so sometimes they get replaced so height difference ain't a big deal in that situation either. 

I am thinking about going to wedi board for all the tile I do soon though. Very impressed with it so far and got a job coming up on concrete subfloor with underfloor heating so it's a perfect situation for the wedi board.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

It's almost a no-win situation. If you need the extra height, you can't use a thin membrane like NobleSeal without the extra stupi step of adding 1/4" CBU. If you need to keep floor height low, you can't use a membrane like Ditra. 

That's why I feel it's important to have multiple products in your arsenal.


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

Wish we had access to them here make my life easier.....but would confuse the hell out of our salesman....laughing


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

That's what I like about the wedi board. I can go from as small as 1/8th to 2"+. Ditra is quick to put down though which is nice.


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## DemRem (Apr 21, 2012)

angus242 said:


> You prep the floor properly. A 100 sq ft plywood subfloor takes no more than an hour to strip clean.


When you're prepping your floor for ditra, besides scraping it real well to get the glue off and cleaning it with water to get off all dust are you doing anything else to make sure it's clean?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Not really. Removed all old adhesives, vacuum, dampen, install Ditra.


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## Ethos (Feb 21, 2012)

CO762 said:


> Same here, but plank and sheet. But in modulars, it's chipboard. Even in million dollar ones.


Usually the larger the home, the worse the construction is the rule around KC. Mostly due to homes in the '80 ballooning in size, material getting cheaper and a huge influx of cheap Mexican labor.

Homes in the '60s/'70s seem to have the best construction. 3-wire romex, 3/4" subfloor, kiln-dried framing and PVC/ABS and copper plumbing. In the '80's they started using crap like OSB, CPVC, "Smart" panels (a nightmare for fenestration and waterproofing, relies solely on painters caulk...), masonite siding, etc. It's a shame really.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Groutface said:


> 100 million a year,scams working pretty good!


shlooter makes $100,000,000 per year on ditra?
Or in the US/canada there's 100,000,000 SF of ditra installed every year?



> U have tcna using the uncoupling word in their install methods as well as our Canadian standards


Got a definition?



> Uncoupling membranes are defined in the Tile Council of North America (TCNA) Handbook as plastic sheets that have a geometric pattern to create an air space between the tile assembly and the
> subfloor.


Wait. Isn't ditra just a plastic sheet, like maybe PVC?
Did someone mentions "sheet"? Like slipsheet? I think slipsheets have been used long before herr shlooter began their marketing gimmick--I'd guess decades. 



> [TCNA]
> A plastic membrane system geometrically configured to provide air space betwen the tile and the substrate to allow independent movement between the two and limit the transfer of stresses


So, what's the ansi measurement for this "system"?
Shlooter itself doesn't provide any means to measure their "system", so how can they say what it does other than as a sales/marketing ploy?

There are absoltuely NO performance requirements for whatever the marketing gimmick of "uncoupling" is.

Anyone?

TCA want to chime in?
Shlooter?
Anyone?

And once someone can measure this marketing gimmick called "uncoupling", then they should be able to do tests (asni) to compare and contrast their product with other ones out there to say which is better, and here are the data...in actual numbers.


So, can ANYONE show me where ditra is better at uncoupling (whatever that is) than nobleseal?

Hello? This is a contractor board, open to the users and installers, and architects/spec people. I've seen the data (yes, real numbers from scientific testing) that show the difference, but I'm just a nobody on the internet.

Anyone from schluter want to come on this "tile board" and put forth their definition of "uncoupling" and give us some actual asni specifications? 

They won't. It's little more than "our car is the BEST". 
Adjectives are truly meaningless...which is why they are used so heavily in advertising. Meaningless.

Signed,
The BEST tile and stone installer ever,
CO762

Prove me wrong.


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

$100 million a year its what I've heard "best installer ever" so you are saying that the highest standards in setting in the USA and CANADA have no brains and just blindly follow what schluter says....I'm gonna say probly NOT! Schluter has spent millions on research to refine a product that uhhhhh WORKS. As far as the word uncoupling ,what's the deal u just defined it. As far as nobleseal or whatever other membrane I personally have never seen or heard of them till this forum a year ago. Could both be good products. Wow


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Ethos said:


> Usually the larger the home, the worse the construction is the rule around KC. Mostly due to homes in the '80 ballooning in size, material getting cheaper and a huge influx of cheap Mexican labor.


Yup. :thumbsup:
And don't forget a builder purchases a plot of land--their money isn't made off of the land, it's made off of what they build--so they stick this mcmansions out there with the 10' setback. Govt allows it because of all the property taxes they'll get. The only thing I've never understood is why someone would want to live in such a place, but I heard an explanation once--the familial structure and technology has joined to make the housing unit less focused on outside of the perimeter walls and more inwards. A lot of homes in mexico and CA/SA are like this...spanish influence. Their yard is inside the walls. But our walls are the walls of our individual rooms and technology our interaction with the outside world.



> Homes in the '60s/'70s seem to have the best construction.


Yup. Closing in on one of those.



> In the '80's they started using crap like OSB, CPVC, "Smart" panels (a nightmare for fenestration and waterproofing, relies solely on painters caulk...), masonite siding, etc. It's a shame really.


In the 80s is when the economic downfall of this country began (IMO) and most of that was structural. That was when the boomers were entering their major income earning years--and computers started to get come into their own (visicacl/lotus) and pocket calculators came into being. Deals were made over a table by whoever had the fastest calculator (thanks HP 12c). And all this enabled a vast amount of money to be sent around to noplace in particular, so there was too much money chasing too little economically feasible projects....but they were done. S&Ls disappeared in that era for a reason.
Can someone say "BS mortgages?" :laughing: Where have I heard that in the last few years? :laughing:

Too much money chasing a return based upon fantasy invariably leads to garbage, then disaster. Dot coms were the 90s fantasy. 2000 was the 'real estate fix/flipper' bs. Ok, that covers the 80s, 90s, and 2000-2010 fraudulent fantasies.

Where do we go from here? 
I'm picking up a 1970s house in the country......


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## DemRem (Apr 21, 2012)

angus242 said:


> Not really. Removed all old adhesives, vacuum, dampen, install Ditra.


So getting back to an original question I had that angus might have already answered. I've been reading some about thinset adhering to glue (like whats left behind when you remove vinyl). The ditra-subfloor bond is important with ditra since the only thing holding ditra down is thinset (no screws like with hardie backer).

*After reading this thread and other info am I right when I say that thinset will stick to glue as long as you don't notice the glue dissolving when water is placed on it? Is there a particular type of thinset that's best for subfloors with glue on them?*

The reason I ask this is because even if I scrap all the glue off I feel that unless the floor is totally sanded down there is still a lot of residue so whatever thinset is used should be able to stick to this kind of nasty surface.


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

DemRem said:


> So I think angus might have already answered this for me, but I've been reading some about thinset adhering to glue (like whats left behind when you remove vinyl). The ditra-subfloor bond is important with ditra since the only thing holding ditra down is thinset (no screws like with hardie backer).
> 
> After reading this thread and other info am I right when I say that thinset will stick to glue as long as you don't notice the glue dissolving when water is placed on it? Is there a particular type of thinset that's best for subfloors with glue on them?
> 
> The reason I ask this is because even if I scrap all the glue off I feel that unless the floor is totally sanded down there is still a lot of residue so whatever thinset is used should be able to stick to this kind of nasty surface.


I've always tried to remove to the best that I can any adhesive on wood or concrete. Installing thinset then ditra on a sanded plywood Probly not a good idea...to smooth....


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Groutface said:


> just blindly follow what schluter says....I'm gonna say probly NOT!


That's OK with me. You can believe whatever you want to.
Got a anything from the tca that says what uncoupling is?
And if they can define it--other than some vague, general concept, like putting tar paper down--how they measure it?

Please post it here. I'd like to know.



> Schluter has spent millions on research to refine a product that uhhhhh WORKS.


Then I assume they would have some actual data for their product.
How is their product superior to any other slipsheet?
Let's let them brag on how their product is superior to nobels sheet.
Let's have them brag on how their product is superior to spiderweb or whatever custom's put out there.
Let's have them compare how their product is superior to putting down a sheet of PVC.

if they've spend millions in research, that means they have actual data, so why not share it with us? 
is there a reason none of the shlooter people get on the internet and only use their sponsored boards to parrot their marketing BS? (note, I didn't say any forum, nor mention any 'bridge' to anywhere...)

You Groutface, as the worlds BEST installer, you should DEMAND data from all the millions of dollars (american I'd guess) in research spent on this product so you can discuss it with customers, using actual data.

Got any?



> As far as the word uncoupling ,what's the deal u just defined it.


And by my vague definition, I am the BEST tile installer.

Definition: "Best Installer" Does good installations that work and don't fail.

I am THE BEST tile installer. Why are you arguing with me on this point? I am, according to that definition. Can you prove that I'm not?
I am a better installer than you are because I am the BEST.
I am better than anyone here, because I am the BEST.

"Best: Does good installations that work and don't fail".

I am the best and you aren't. No one else is, because, well, I wrote the definition and (don't have) the data to back it up. :laughing:



> As far as nobleseal or whatever other membrane I personally have never seen or heard of them till this forum a year ago. Could both be good products.


Lot's of products out there, some old, some very old, some new.
I'm leery of when someone says something is "the best"....especially if it's a manufacturer that provides no data on anything and doesn't answer data driven questions. 

We should believe in their science, but they provide no numbers, no nothing but a cheap marketing slogan.

Hope....change....


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

DemRem said:


> The ditra-subfloor bond is important with ditra since the only thing holding ditra down is thinset (no screws like with hardie backer).


An interesting point. If you use glaziers shims for spacers, how do you get the thinset off of them? If it's to "uncouple" (let's just call it a tar paper slipsheet), then is the bond that important?


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

I've never said I'm the best because I know the English language.....I could never be that arrogant. I don't have any data on any of these products because like I said I've only been here a year and look back a few post on this thread, I'm litterally saying that I've learned more in a year than the last twenty as far as products.... I don't care if u think your the best .....good for you....but your opinion of a product as opposed to ttmac or tcna or even schluter for that matter is ONLY AN OPINION. laughing.....mlm


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## Ethos (Feb 21, 2012)

CO762 said:


> An interesting point. If you use glaziers shims for spacers, how do you get the thinset off of them? If it's to "uncouple" (let's just call it a tar paper slipsheet), then is the bond that important?


That's an interesting point with the old slipsheet method. That said, tile underlayment used to be 2" of sand mix too. Maybe Ditra was designed to solve problems caused by CBU which replaced the old mud bed method in the '80s.


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

Ethos said:


> That's an interesting point with the old slipsheet method. That said, tile underlayment used to be 2" of sand mix too. Maybe Ditra was designed to solve problems caused by CBU which replaced the old mud bed method in the '80s.


With the slipsheet "before my time" when I rip them out they always have wire mesh nailed to wood .....but not bonded for sure.....good point


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## Ethos (Feb 21, 2012)

Groutface said:


> With the slipsheet "before my time" when I rip them out they always have wire mesh nailed to wood .....but not bonded for sure.....good point


True enough. It's usually just a nail every foot or so to keep the lathe flat, which would still allow tons of lateral movement.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Groutface said:


> I've never said I'm the best because I know the English language....


I know. I said, "I am the BEST"! Because I am!!!! :jester:



> I've learned more in a year than the last twenty as far as products....


Then learn there are a lot of different products out there and when some manufacturing corporation says theirs is the best, or superior, ask "why?"
With shlooter, you'll just get the same, vague definition over and over and over.

Speaking of sales numbers:



> US number 1 for 7 weeks - Sep 1989,
> Canada 1 for 12 weeks - 1989,
> US 6 X Platinum (certified by RIAA in Jan 1990),
> Diamond in Canada (certified in Mar 1990),
> ...


That's just a two year run for them. 










...and they were lip syncing the whole time..... 
couldn't sing a lick. :laughing:


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

Ok that's funny......lmao.....I have no access to any of these products.....with the exception of online purchasing.....happy with what I use.....just cause it works.....


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Groutface said:


> $100 million a year its what I've heard "best installer ever" so you are saying that the highest standards in setting in the USA and CANADA have no brains and just blindly follow what schluter says....I'm gonna say probly NOT! Schluter has spent millions on research to refine a product that uhhhhh WORKS. As far as the word uncoupling ,what's the deal u just defined it. As far as nobleseal or whatever other membrane I personally have never seen or heard of them till this forum a year ago. Could both be good products. Wow


Uncoupling is not even a word nor is there a test for it.

The spec in the TCNA that outlines Ditra over plywood is F148-11 and this nets you a residential rating not a light commercial rating. 

Think about why the same subfloor and same joist spacing with 1/2" cement board, Wedi Board, Fiber Reinforced Water Resistant Gypsum Backer Board, Coated Glass Mat Water Resistant Backer Board and Fiber Cement Backer Board all qualify for light commercial ratings.

Hmmmm.

Interesting the level of the Schluterizing or Brain Washing that goes on. Look it up men. The information is right there.

Lets Sum it up. 

Wedi Board over plywood makes a stronger floor than one done with Ditra.

Permabase over plywood makes a stronger floor than one done with Ditra.

Denshield over plywood makes a stronger floor than one done with Ditra.

Or follow detail F145-11 (Joists 16" OC Plywood Subfloor Mortar Bed)

A brief review: Expanded metal lath nailed or stapled to subfloor over a cleavage membrane. Bed thickness 3/4" to 1 1/2". Floor rating Light Commercial.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Groutface said:


> Ok that's funny......lmao.....I have no access to any of these products.....with the exception of online purchasing.....happy with what I use.....just cause it works.....


The Noble Store ships for $5.00 anywhere in the states.


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> The Noble Store ships for $5.00 anywhere in the states.


I'm in Ontario....do you get the noble products....and are they better than ditra? In your opinion.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> Wedi Board over plywood makes a stronger floor than one done with Ditra.
> 
> Permabase over plywood makes a stronger floor than one done with Ditra.
> 
> Denshield over plywood makes a stronger floor than one done with Ditra.


How is any of that possible when none of those materials are structural?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> How is any of that possible when none of those materials are structural?


Just because they may not be classed as structural it don't mean they don't add structural stability to a floor or wall. There's a noticeable difference in stiffness of a floor done with 3/4" advantech, ditra and tile than a floor done with 3/4" advantech, 1/4" wedi and tile

Even though end finished heights are identical the wedi system is much stronger. Put some tile onto a wedi board then try and bend that sheet to get the tiles to break away from the grout then do the same on the ditra. The ditra fails vastly easier than the wedi board with tile on it and I think this is the reason for the floor felling so much stronger after wedi board being used over ditra.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

angus242 said:


> How is any of that possible when none of those materials are structural?



Good question Angus. Why does the TCNA list them all as light commercial and list Ditra over plywood as residential? If the other materials didn't offer up more structure how could they get a classification grade higher?

Did you go to KBIS? I had a virtual meeting with my Journey Man and Dean from Noble Company (National Sales Manager) to review his powerpoint presentation on "Why Waterproofing Systems Fail".

It was an eye opener to say the least. There is a big difference between residential standards and commercial. When possible we build our residential projects to light commercial standards. This is not hard and offers up a better product in my opinion.

Kerdi in a shower pan and wall meets "Residential Ratings" or up to 1/16" of movement. Doesn't give you much room for error. Going to light commercial you need 1/8" of movement. Noble Seal TS offers this.

Ditra is not a crack isolation membrane - never was. Noble Seal TS is.

Residential = minmum code requirements.

I find it funny that the spec in the TCNA guide for Kerdi over drywall requires a cleavage membrane, lath and scratch coat. Seems that info is omitted from the instal book. 

Checking these codes and what your options are is easy with a guide book. If you email Henry he might send you one. 

When you look at who makes up the TCNA is it any wonder that all the manufactures products are showcased with cross sections??? :no:

So compare the residential and light commercial specs and you decide what is the better or stronger approach.

JW


I have an importing account and a UPS brokerage. I can bring the stuff up direct from Noble myself but of late am getting better pricing having the sale go via my local supplier in Burnaby. Donny at Centanni has been adding my products to his orders for a new Hotel Project he is suppling drains and tile for.

Noble's products can be purchased at Dal Tile as well back East.

JW


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Just because they may not be classed as structural it don't mean they don't add structural stability to a floor or wall. There's a noticeable difference in stiffness of a floor done with 3/4" advantech, ditra and tile than a floor done with 3/4" advantech, 1/4" wedi and tile
> 
> Even though end finished heights are identical the wedi system is much stronger. Put some tile onto a wedi board then try and bend that sheet to get the tiles to break away from the grout then do the same on the ditra. The ditra fails vastly easier than the wedi board with tile on it and I think this is the reason for the floor felling so much stronger after wedi board being used over ditra.


And the one done with Wedi meets light commercial ratings and the one with Ditra would not.

JW


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Is that based off the "jump test"? Who has tested this? Did you have the Robinson test done over both surfaces?

There is so much BS going around here, it's ridiculous.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Is that based off the "jump test"? Who has tested this? Did you have the Robinson test done over both surfaces?
> 
> There is so much BS going around here, it's ridiculous.


Who said anything about a jump test! I can tell how stiff a floor is by just walking on it. I'm not the only one who can do this so I'm not super human. If you don't believe me about the wedi being much stronger test it for ya self. I will even send you a piece of wedi to use if ya like. The wedi board with tile is much stiffer and more stable than ditra with tile based on same thickness. How you can not understand this concept I have no idea. Perhaps use wedi board before knocking it. I use both and have experience with both and the reason I may switch to wedi board for every install is because it's a better product. Even the kerdi board ain't as nice.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Is that based off the "jump test"? Who has tested this? Did you have the Robinson test done over both surfaces?
> 
> There is so much BS going around here, it's ridiculous.



Angus the TCNA must test these products to come up with the residential, light commercial and commercial ratings. They publish the different floor and wall assemblies in the TCNA Specifications guide. I'm quoting ratings from the current 2011 specification guide.

Look it up.

The BS is that people believe that Ditra makes for a stronger floor than 1/2 cement board.

JW


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> ...Even the kerdi board ain't as nice.


Kerdi board does not have the cement layer Wedi does. Kerdi Board does not have a floor rating to my knowledge.

JW


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

This is simply funny now.....:laughing:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> Kerdi board does not have the cement layer Wedi does. Kerdi Board does not have a floor rating to my knowledge.
> 
> JW


I used it once on a wall and wouldn't use it again. I also don't know if it's suitable for floor use either. I would take a guess as to no based on how the stuff is constructed but who knows.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

angus242 said:


> This is simply funny now.....:laughing:



Funny how? Funny as in that a foam board makes for a stronger floor than Ditra or Funny that you just learned like me that all the bull **** about cement board over plywood adds nothing to the floor assembly and that all this time the Kerdi folks have hood winked you.

JW


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Your substrate, regardless of cementitious, foam, plastic or fabric is not meant to add any "strength" to a floor installation. If the subfloor structure is insufficient, you can add magic fairy dust set by the 3 Wise Men and installed by Santa....it's not gonna help.

Do you even know why ASTM C627-10 is performed?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> Funny how? Funny as in that a foam board makes for a stronger floor than Ditra or Funny that you just learned like me that all the bull **** about cement board over plywood adds nothing to the floor assembly and that all this time the Kerdi folks have hood winked you.
> 
> JW



No John, what's funny is the amount of bad information being dumped into the tile section here whether is from those who think they know better or those that have a big Schluter buttplug in.

I've back you many, many times and have supported you when others didn't. But even I'm tired of your anti-Schulter campaign. It's just plain old John.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Your substrate, regardless of cementitious, foam, plastic or fabric is not meant to add any "strength" to a floor installation. If the subfloor structure is insufficient, you can add magic fairy dust set by the 3 Wise Men and installed by Santa....it's not gonna help.
> 
> Do you even know why ASTM C627-10 is performed?


I do. Do you know who made the testing machine? I'll give you a clue. His name is Dale Kempster - he works for Schluter.

How do you think they get these ratings? Why do you think cement board out preforms Ditra in floor ratings. If Ditra was so great why do they not get a light commercial rating?

What's funny is Denshield outperforms Ditra as well. I nearly sprayed coffee out my nose when I read that. :laughing:

My last barrier free project was a double layer of 5/8 plywood. Then heating cable. Then skim coat. Then Ditra!

I'm not saying it's bad stuff just that all this BS as to it being the best is bull ****.

JW


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

angus242 said:


> No John, what's funny is the amount of bad information being dumped into the tile section here whether is from those who think they know better or those that have a big Schluter buttplug in.
> 
> I've back you many, many times and have supported you when others didn't. But even I'm tired of your anti-Schulter campaign. It's just plain old John.



Easy Angus. These are facts right out of the TCNA Specification guidebook. You can simply look them up. I removed my Schluter butt plug three years back and finally am getting some solid advice from new suppliers. I did Kerdi the bottom of my toilet so it didn't scratch my hardwood. 

I didn't print the book. I didn't write the book.

But facts are what they are. Online so many people have read that XYZ is better that they believe it.

JW


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I still don't think you get the point. So am I to believe that Wedi 1/4" panel will get a commercial rating with a 5/8" subfloor over 19.2" OC? Hell, no. Why? Because it's the insufficient SUBFLOOR that determines whether or not an underlayment passes the test. Did you know there are circumstances when Ditra can achieve a Heavy rating? 

As soon as someone starts touting about how this panel or material makes a stronger underlayment than this material, I already know they have no clue.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I have no idea what these guides say about all these different products but you can't beat testing the stuff your self. I will buy and use what I find is better based on comparisons to other products. I have never been a massive fan of kerdi and ditra and it was nice to start seeing some of the better products used in Europe become available over here and stocked locally. It's like people who drive caddys and think they are driving the best car on the road yet don't ever test drive another vehicle. They know no better and kerdi and ditra is the exact same. Once you move away from it you won't go back to it.


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

Ditra xl on a very suspect 2x6 floor. No way we could remove joists or laminate without incurring crazy costs to the project. Tiles still good as the day we set them


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I actually never spec Ditra as my underlayment UNLESS it's Ditra XL to match to 3/4" hardwood.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> I still don't think you get the point. So am I to believe that Wedi 1/4" panel will get a commercial rating with a 5/8" subfloor over 19.2" OC? Hell, no. Why? Because it's the insufficient SUBFLOOR that determines whether or not an underlayment passes the test. Did you know there are circumstances when Ditra can achieve a Heavy rating?
> 
> As soon as someone starts touting about how this panel or material makes a stronger underlayment than this material, I already know they have no clue.


I get your point but we ain't basing it on unsuitable subfloor. Of course the sub floor has to be suitable no matter what product is used but when both substrates are the exact same and one uses ditra and one uses wedi the wedi floor is gonna be more stable and feel more solid. I'm not saying that the tile will come up or crack grout on the ditra. The wedi board just give a more solid construction.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> The wedi board just give a more solid construction.


And I'm saying that's a myth. Until you do a side by side comparison of identical structures that have an L/360 rating, install 2 different underlayments, tile with identical tile and then test the deflection again, it's all hearsay.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> And I'm saying that's a myth. Until you do a side by side comparison of identical structures that have an L/360 rating, install 2 different underlayments, tile with identical tile and then test the deflection again, it's all hearsay.


I just done this exact thing. Done 2 bathrooms next to each other. Same subfloor in both, same joist spacing and same spans. The bathroom with ditra was 1/3 smaller than the bathroom with wedi and the wedi bathroom felt more solid. No I didn't do proper calculations but when the customer can feel the difference between the 2 then it's evident there's a difference. The wedi board bathroom felt as if I had tiled onto concrete and the ditra bathroom felt like I tilled on 3/8+3/4 subfloor. It's no rocket science as to why it feels stiffer and more solid.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

angus242 said:


> it's all hearsay.


Still....


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Ok angus let me try to make it more simple. What underlayment would add more strength and support to what ever is on top on it. I added some weight to make it simple.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> What underlayment would add more strength and support to what ever is on top on it.


_Now_ you're getting somewhere.....*NONE!* An underlayment is NOT meant to add strength or support. It's there to:
give a superior surface to tile to
waterproof
adjust overall floor height
add crack suppression


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Now you're getting somewhere.....NONE! An underlayment is NOT meant to add strength or support. It's there to:
> give a superior surface to tile to
> waterproof
> adjust overall floor height
> add crack suppression


I didn't say it's meant to add strength but it does. It's the nature of the beast. Adding the wedi makes the tile feel likes it's on 2" of subfloor. If there's any give at all in a subfloor with ditra you still feel it but once you have that stiff strong wedi board on top your point loads spread further out because your distributing the weight to a bigger area which ditra does not do. I can't believe you don't understand this. In a way you may understand its like standing on a 2x2 tile compared to standing on a 18"x18" tile. The loads are spread across a larger area.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Oh no, is that 1/2" CBU deflecting under nothing but its own weight?









I don't consider the underlayment making anything "feel" more solid when I specify a material. I prefer to use NobleSeal TS as an underlayment because it help stops movement from transferring to the tile installation, not because it makes the floor feel more solid. If I want a floor to feel more solid, I address the situation _*before*_ I add an underlayment.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Oh no, is that 1/2" CBU deflecting under nothing but its own weight?
> 
> I don't consider the underlayment making anything "feel" more solid when I specify a material. I prefer to use NobleSeal TS as an underlayment because it help stops movement from transferring to the tile installation, not because it makes the floor feel more solid. If I want a floor to feel more solid, I address the situation before I add an underlayment.


Now do that with ditra. It can't even support it's own weight. All I'm getting at is both systems work but one requires less work to make the floor feel more solid. Ditra would require either extra subfloor, more joists, bigger joists or less span. When you put down the wedi over the suitable sub floor you don't need to do any of that above stuff as it will make the floor feel more solid. Ditra does nothing to stiffen the floor. Like said on the same thickness subfloors and deflection rates a wedi floor will be stiffer and stronger than a ditra floor. To say it wouldn't be is idiotic because your adding a extra layer of stiffer material. Just like sandwiching a layer off carbon fiber between fiberglass. It ain't no thicker than the fiberglass yet much stiffer.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> Ditra would require either extra subfloor, more joists, bigger joists or less span.


:w00t: :no: :bangin: :thumbdown: :001_huh:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> :w00t: :no: :bangin: :thumbdown: :001_huh:


Do explain to us how you make a floor stiffer without doing any of the above? Really sounds like you ain't got the first bit of technical common sense. I know tilers ain't the most clued up but I thought you was a bit more clued up than most!


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

Ditra can go over 5/8 plywood without the necessary build up to 1 1/4" minimum for most tile installations..That in itself is one of the great reasons to using a product like ditra on a substrait.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

You are so far off topic it's not worth it. You just don't get it and you wanna start calling me stupid? Keep stiffening floors with underlayments and priming before tiling with PVA, chief. I think real tile folks know the odor of moron in the room.


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)




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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

but i took a shower last week:sad:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

You use soap?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> You are so far off topic it's not worth it. You just don't get it and you wanna start calling me stupid? Keep stiffening floors with underlayments and priming before tiling with PVA, chief. I think real tile folks know the odor of moron in the room.


Angus just because people don't use the same products you do or put them down the same way you do it don't make it wrong. You have to realize I used a vast amount of products you have not even heard of let alone used so how in many way or form can you say you know anything about them. How many wedi shower systems have you installed to date to give the the expertise you have on them? But Hey I must be a moron because I don't do as you do!


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Axe,i gotta fight off the chicks:clap:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> Angus just because people don't use the same products you do or put them down the same way you do it don't make it wrong. You have to realize I used a vast amount of products you have not even heard of let alone used so how in many way or form can you say you know anything about them. How many wedi shower systems have you installed to date to give the the expertise you have on them? But Hey I must be a moron because I don't do as you do!


When did I ever say Wedi was bad? When have I ever said Wedi was inferior to any other product? 

"Vast" amounts, eh? I must be stuck in the tiling dark ages. I wonder where all these secret products are that I have no knowledge of. 

I help manufacturers test unreleased products pretty often. The thing is I'm not here to brag about what I have access to. You can play with all these vast products that I have no idea about all day long. Unless you install them properly or even have any idea to what their purposes are, they are just fluff.

Enjoy your secret products, Mr Peabody.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Tom Struble said:


> Axe,i gotta fight off the chicks:clap:


Ah, whore's bath :thumbup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

you tile guys rock:clap:much better then the deck pussies:thumbup:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Angus what I'm trying to explain is when I have used over 15+ different shower systems and "uncoupling membranes" you get a feel for what each one is doing different to the others. When you break it down they really all do the same thing yet some do it much quicker and better and wedi and it nailed in my eyes. Until of course we see some of these system they use in Europe over here but they may never happen. 

There's no way you can deny that adding anything on top of a sub floor be it extra subfloor, ditra, wedi, CBU, Hardie etc etc makes if stiffer if applied correctly. Even adding a sheet of paper would make it stiffer and adding 500 sheets would make it stiffer also. wedi with the way it's been designed if very stiff and light. All I'm trying to explain is when you install like for like wedi makes for a stiffer stronger floor than ditra over that same floor. The more layers of anything you add if installed correctly stiffens the floor. Just like laying up fiberglass. The more layers the stiffer and stronger it gets. Even though wedi is not designed to be structural it still adds to the overall strength. I loaded that same piece of wedi up earlier with 3 full buckets of mud and still no issues. You can't tell me that strength does not add ANYTHING to the overall strength of the system the tile sits on. 


I guess we have our ways we work and products we use and I'm not telling you yours is wrong. I just feel mine works better for me for various reasons.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

And how in the world did I miss this thread?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> And how in the world did I miss this thread?


You didn't have your ditra tinted glasses on did ya :thumbup:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Well I wanted to put this to rest so I went to the store.

I put on some Axe, went up to the lady and whispered in her ear that I would build her a deck next week. She pushed me away and asked when the hall bathroom was going to be done.

That proves it right there...tile is way cooler than decks.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Damn that got moderated in record time!


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> When you break it down they really all do the same thing


No, they don't. Can you compare 1/4" Durock to NobleSeal TS? 

Are you insinuating that 1/4" Wedi panel is a superior performing product over NobleSeal TS for flooring?

I have understood your point from the beginning but my stance is it doesn't matter. A plywood subfloor substrate is made stiff because of its thickness, the tongue and grooves and that its seams are aligned over the joists (along with the size, spacing and span of the joists). A floor panel, whether Wedi, Permabase or other does not interlock, its seams do not align with the joists and are not thick enough to make any measurable difference to the overall performance of the floor...period. If Wedi had something special to it, the minimum requirements for installation would be less than something like Ditra, no?

I specify my underlayment to best serve the floor; that's dampening movement from the subfloor to the tile installation and give the thinset something to grab to. A beneficial bonus is waterproofing. I would never specify an underlayment because, in theory, it _might_ make the floor a minuscule stiffer.

That's like saying I go to Hooters for the food. :no:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> I guess we have our ways we work and products we use and I'm not telling you yours is wrong. I just feel mine works better for me for various reasons.


So you're a tiling specialist? My mistake, I thought you did a lot of other things as well.

Myself, I've never had much luck at trying to be more expert than experts in a field I'm not an expert in.

Or something like that... :whistling


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> No, they don't. Can you compare 1/4" Durock to NobleSeal TS?
> 
> Perhaps quote my full reply and not parts. Like I said stop twisting what I'm saying!
> 
> ...



I guess I might as well give up. I could stack a aircraft carrier on that wedi and you would still say it don't add anything to the strength or stiffness of the install


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> So you're a tiling specialist? My mistake, I thought you did a lot of other things as well.
> 
> Myself, I've never had much luck at trying to be more expert than experts in a field I'm not an expert in.
> 
> Or something like that... :whistling


I have tiled for over 15 years with not one call back worth mentioning. If that classes me as a expert I have no idea. When I moved here I branched out into more work because of the lack of just tiling work. Now I do everything and have work booked until next year. I must be doing something right as I keep getting recommendations but bathroom and tiling was always my main trade. Just so happens I pretty good at other trades also but I wouldn't say I'm the best by a long shot I'm just trying to be good and make sure my customers get what they want.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> I guess I might as well give up. I could stack a aircraft carrier on that wedi and you would still say it don't add anything to the strength or stiffness of the install


And you're right. Adding weight to an uninstalled product is like throwing pebbles into the Grand Canyon. 

How does installing Wedi save time over installing NobleSeal TS? I make no attempts to hide the fact I'm slow when it comes to tiling but I know I can install TS way faster. You do know NobleSeal is one of the most waterproof components on the market, don't you?

I'm not twisting anything you're saying. You said, "_When you break it down they really all do the same thing_" and I said no they don't. I gave an example of 2 products and asked you how they compare.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

angus242 said:


> And you're right. Adding weight to an uninstalled product is like throwing pebbles into the Grand Canyon.
> 
> How does installing Wedi save time over installing NobleSeal TS? I make no attempts to hide the fact I'm slow when it comes to tiling but I know I can install TS way faster. You do know NobleSeal is one of the most waterproof components on the market, don't you?
> 
> I'm not twisting anything you're saying. You said, "_When you break it down they really all do the same thing_" and I said no they don't. I gave an example of 2 products and asked you how they compare.


So adding weight to subfloor when it's not installed means it gives you no idea of how stiff or strong it if before being laid! As an example if I support some 1/8 partial board on the ends and some 3/4 advantech on the ends and load them with weight it tells me nothing about which material is stronger under load! Same exact principle applys to anything that goes on a wall/floor be it joists, beams, subfloor etc etc. they all have given load bearing ratings and believe it or not wedi can support significantly more than ditra. Now when you add this extra layer to your sub floor it does nothing to increase its strength or stiffness! See how your logic is flawed now. So let's get this straight. Your saying that if I apply both systems to 3/4 advantech board there will be zero strength and stiffness added due to both of them being bonded to the boards? I have no problem getting some board and proving this to you. It's pretty easy to see with just the pics I posted which system will deflect less and be stronger. 

Again you don't post my full reply. I said shower systems and uncoupling membranes do the same thing. They uncouple the tile and water proff is what I'm saying. Which is why they all do the same thing in the end. Just some better than others.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> See how your logic is flawed now.


It's not. I'm not trying analyze whether a product doesn't crush under extreme weight. That's what you're describing. 

And how in the hell does showing a picture of uninstalled Ditra prove anything? By the time it's installed with a layer of thinset underneath, the waffles filled with thinset and then another layer of thinset on top of that, it's much stronger than just blowing in the breeze uninstalled....

I stand unchanged; a tile underlayment is not designed to stiffen a floor structure. The end.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> You didn't have your ditra tinted glasses on did ya :thumbup:


I have never used Ditra or Kerdi or Wedi for that matter. I am a CBU on shower walls and tub surrounds covered with Aqua Defense and backer for the floor, mortared down screwed every 6". I actually started using the Green E-Board recently instead of cement backer. Love the stuff.

As far as stiffening the floor I think that all do to varying degrees. However if you are relying on these products to reduce the deflection you haven't a clue as to what you are doing. And if you have, what does it matter what you use?

CO makes a good point and no one has yet to answer his real questions.

John is an avid seeker of the truth when it comes to tile and tile products. But I am confused on why the anger towards Ditra. It is a strong company with a strong product. We need to set aside our biases and make sure that we are seeing what is true and not what we believe or feel to be true. Their is a big difference.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Yes ditra well add a little extra stiffness and strength but nothing near what wedi does. 

Here is 160lbs on the wedi board below and less than a lb on ditra. Now apply both these products to a board with thinset without even knowing what the board type will be the wedi will take 159lbs more weight than the ditra setup before failure on the same level. Now apply these 2 setups between a 16oc joist layout and you have vastly less deflection and much more stiffness than the ditra setup has. Yes both are way above minimum required to Kay tile but the wedi floor is still stronger and stiffer. I bet the wedi would be vastly stiffer when applied to board compared to ditra also. Ditra will flex and crack pretty early on we as the wedi board will take much more pressure before failing.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> Ditra will flex and crack pretty early on we as the wedi board will take much more pressure before failing


Your pics are meaningless as neither product is meant to be a structural product.

If Ditra fails because of flexing, your subfloor system was incorrect to begin with.

*AGAIN*, a tile underlayment should not be used a reinforcing material.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Yes ditra well add a little extra stiffness and strength but nothing near what wedi does.
> 
> Here is 160lbs on the wedi board below and less than a lb on ditra. Now apply both these products to a board with thinset without even knowing what the board type will be the wedi will take 159lbs more weight than the ditra setup before failure on the same level. Now apply these 2 setups between a 16oc joist layout and you have vastly less deflection and much more stiffness than the ditra setup has. Yes both are way above minimum required to Kay tile but the wedi floor is still stronger and stiffer. I bet the wedi would be vastly stiffer when applied to board compared to ditra also. Ditra will flex and crack pretty early on we as the wedi board will take much more pressure before failing.


You clearly miss the point.

1) None of these products were designed or intended to reduce deflection.

2) Comparing the stiffness of Wedi and Ditra is a strawman argument. It's not an apples to apples comparison. I can snap Wedi in half with my bare hands, but cannot do that to Ditra, Does that make Ditra stronger? Nope! It proves nothing. Placing a car on top of car proves nothing. They are unscientific unproven test methods.

3) If you are relying on these products to reduce deflection you really need to rethink your line of work.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Those pics remind me of my kids school projects where they use a single sheet of paper to hold up a gallon of milk. I guess I should start using paper in reducing deflection.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Where on here have I said anything about not putting down the correct subfloor to begin with? As I have stated numerous time when both systems are installed correctly to the correct subfloor using the correct thinset and install method the wedi is vastly stiffer. I'm not saying the ditra is a inferior product. I'm trying to give you guys advice who have never used it before. I have only recently started using the wedi board for flooring situations and what's nice is I can can any height above suitable subfloor to match room with tall flooring and thick carpet which I can't do with ditra as easy plus I gain a lot of stiffness when using the wedi board. 

Here's the last bathroom I used ditra on and it was in combination to wedi so I know the pros and cons of each system pretty well now. One of the biggest pros with it is modified thinset throughout the install. 

It's gonna be the last one for ditra too unless HO really has to have it.


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## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::drink:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

ISM37 said:


> :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::drink:


:huh: I'll take number 4, please.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Ethos said:


> That's an interesting point with the old slipsheet method. That said, tile underlayment used to be 2" of sand mix too.


amazing how old school "uncoupling" is.  Even before the dry latex/milk revolution allowed for greater movement w/o failure.

The parameters have always been the same--bond a solid 'stone' to something solid. 

As thinbeds came into being (latex flexibility), then the mudbed was no longer needed (generically speaking). So why did CBU come into being again? What's the purpose of CBU?



> Maybe Ditra was designed to solve problems caused by CBU which replaced the old mud bed method in the '80s.


Great observation. But what are the problems of CBU?


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Groutface said:


> Ok that's funny......lmao.....


I agree. I impressed my dizzy self on that one. :laughing:



> I have no access to any of these products.....with the exception of online purchasing.....happy with what I use.....just cause it works.....


Use what works for you and be open to other things. In these light speed internet times that can manipulate the power of algore's internet, things sometimes can get sizzle crazy and leave the steak behind, as an afterthought. Do your own work and when someone wants you to do it a different way, ask "why?". If they don't provide a good enough answer, then why do it their way?


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

CO762 said:


> I agree. I impressed my dizzy self on that one. :laughing:
> 
> Use what works for you and be open to other things. In these light speed internet times that can manipulate the power of algore's internet, things sometimes can get sizzle crazy and leave the steak behind, as an afterthought. Do your own work and when someone wants you to do it a different way, ask "why?". If they don't provide a good enough answer, then why do it their way?


Agreed I'd love to explore the different membranes out there but I'm not going to use them just to say I did. I would use them if the product I'm currently using now, let me down . That being said ........see what you started.....hahah laughing


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> So after reading the whole thread I am unsure if there are any advantages to hardie over ditra..


:laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

HS345 said:


> :laughing:


So are you going to contribute to the actual OP or just avoid the actual topic? What a joke!


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> BBC, are you saying that the 1/2" ply is directly screwed to the framing? That's the entire thickness of the subfloor? 1/2"?


Yep 1/2 ply directly to the framing. What's funny is when you see carpet in other rooms they have added at least another 3/4 to the 1/2 to beef the floor up yet the bathrooms have tile on 1/2" what's even more crazy is most of them have been ok no issues with cracks or loose tile.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> So after reading the whole thread I am unsure if there are any advantages to hardie over ditra..


Not any advantages for me to make it worth using hardie over ditra but wedi over ditra yes lol


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Someone has read the whole thread? Ohio you have too much time on your hands. Go get a job!


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Will there be a prize for the 200th post to this thread?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Will there be a prize for the 200th post to this thread?


I am hoping, this has been exhausting! :blink:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

The minimum code tennis match has been moved to a different court:
http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/minimum-code-117254/


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

I'm unsubscribing to this thread..


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> So after reading the whole thread I am unsure if there are any advantages to hardie over ditra..


What do hardie or ditra have to do with anything?
We're talking about the fluking french!


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Will there be a prize for the 200th post to this thread?


A mini roll of ditra and a big box of hardibacker screws.


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## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> So after reading the whole thread I am unsure if there are any advantages to hardie over ditra..


after reading this thread, i'm unsure weather there any advantages to reading anymore of this thread!!


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

CO762 said:


> What do hardie or ditra have to do with anything?
> We're talking about the fluking french!


Withoutem no good NHL goalies!jester......ok I'm done


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## uwill3 (May 1, 2012)

Groutface said:


> This city I work in even the suppliers haven't even heard of half of the stuff we talk about here. I humbly say that I have learned more about products and procedures in the last year from CT than I have in the last 20 of installing.....thumbswayup!


I'm new to this site, ran into this as my first blog, found it right up my alley, as far as my life trade the last 8 years of tile installation, and I agree with groutface, already within just a few mins of reading, it refreshes my memory of the right names of products, and their applications...

Work has thinned out in my area, and "word of mouth" just isn't cutting it anymore, hopping to land a commercial job within the outlaying states of indiana, have a 3 man crew with over 20 years experience in the trade, hope this can spread the company a bit and get the ball rolling somewhere. Glad to be on Contractor Talk , Thanks everyone :thumbup:
my 1st post


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## Floormasta78 (Apr 6, 2011)

You'll regret it Will.. 

You'll regret it...


Haha !

Awesome ! Welcome


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

uwill3 said:


> hopping to land a commercial job within the outlaying states of indiana, have a 3 man crew with over 20 years experience in the trade, hope this can spread the company a bit and get the ball rolling somewhere.


Piecework baby!

Welcome aboard.


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

Welcome aboard......


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## uwill3 (May 1, 2012)

I haven't used screws on ditra in the past... Just to clarify this is the rolls of orange square punched plastic with a white fabric side... Ditra is so expensive compared to cement board, that it isn't very popular around here... It does open up some possibilities when you have a sturdy floor already that needs tile but in a thin surface to match existing thresholds. 

Again, not a product I use often, but install was simple, cut to fit the shape of the room, and then using a v notch trowel, unroll the Ditra and press it down firmly pressing the fabric side down into the mortar leaving the squares faced up... Then ready for tile install, using a 3/8 trowel (floors).

Pros to Ditra:
No dust when cutting
Lightest underlayment 
Fast Install - No screws

Cons to Ditra:
Expensive
Less Durability


Cement board is more durable, cheaper... 
Without the right tools, very dusty, heavy, and requires lots of screws/nails/staples whoever the case may be.

What the  am I rambling on about now...


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

uwill3 said:


> I haven't used screws on ditra in the past... Just to clarify this is the rolls of orange square punched plastic with a white fabric side... Ditra is so expensive compared to cement board, that it isn't very popular around here... It does open up some possibilities when you have a sturdy floor already that needs tile but in a thin surface to match existing thresholds.
> 
> Again, not a product I use often, but install was simple, cut to fit the shape of the room, and then using a v notch trowel, unroll the Ditra and press it down firmly pressing the fabric side down into the mortar leaving the squares faced up... Then ready for tile install, using a 3/8 trowel (floors).
> 
> ...


Ditra is not more expensive when you factor in labor. Also, Ditra is "less durable" than cement board? How do you figure?

One more thing, I don't think staples are an approved fastener for cbu.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Such a debate.

It's always the case when the Mighty Orange King is shown to be not so great.

Lets remember the original topic at hand. "Advanatges of Hardie over Ditra".

The number one point I guess I made back on page one or two. A floor done with Hardie Board gets a light commercial rating and one done with Ditra gets residential.

So when you wrap up your home renovation, the counters go in, the tile guy comes back and does the backsplash and you throw the huge house party.

Do you want a "Residential Rating" or a "Light Commercial"?


I also keep my off cuts of Hardie and Green EBoard outside. The get wet from the rain, then dry. 

I can load my sheets of Hardie in my truck. With off cuts of Ditra they could fly away! :laughing:

When you tile over Hardi Board your knees don't get pinched like when you tile over Ditra. Spider web is better on the knees for this but I can't get any right now.

I can't think of anything else.

The flip side of the coin is that Ditra goes down better over graded surfaces. It follows contours better than sheet membranes and if your a big baby like me and don't want your knees pinched you can wear knee pads. I would never install Hardie over cable heat and would never not install some sort of anti fracture membrane over my heating systems.

Ditra is not an anti fracture membrane like Noble Seal TS but locally for me is much cheaper (half the price as Noble Seal TS) and has not let me down ever.

On the cheap. No heat. I would be banging down cement board and taping the seams. I'd skip Hardi and use Wonder Board and Mega Light from Custom. 25 year install warranty. Tough to beat that here locally.

JW


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