# EPA Certified



## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

So you both feel its not immoral to take a customers deposit of $2000.00 and then purchase an $1800.00 item and keep the differance. This is why homeowners do not trust contractors and prefer to do the work themselves. Contractors, free to charge what they want???
Well, it sounds like Contractor free agency is here. Its a shame, the policeman, firefighter, mailman and all factory workers cannot charge what they want for their services.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

rjordan392 said:


> Its a shame, the policeman, firefighter, mailman and all factory workers cannot charge what they want for their services.


Yes, they can all charge what they want. Nobody works anywhere with a ball and chain. They can get another job where they are compensated at a rate they feel they are worthy of. They can also go into business for themselves. Nobody must accept a certain wage... 

Anyhow, rjordan, this is a contractor site. You certainly have the minority view. Why did you choose to post here and haggle us? Why not blog on a site with someone who agrees with you, because you sure aren't changing anyone's mind around here, I assure you.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

Where would we all be if everyone was a contractor. "I'll tell you" ... we would all be in the same boat, under employed. I suppose keeping the contractor honest is bad news on this forum.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Are you a buyer for WalMart?


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## HVAC Doc (Apr 1, 2004)

I guess I can start stocking all my equipment and then the customer can pay for my insurance rates to cover that equipment in case of loss and can pay for storage space it takes up. Mark-ups are a part of business be it HVAC, plumbing, electrical, or the Mom and Pop hardware store down the street.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

Well it's time to break some stones. I spoke to a HVAC business owner about replacing my furnace and A coil. I believe he has an EPA card, but his employees are questionable. I am going to insist that he have an employee on the job that has all the necessary qualifications and certificates. If this employee leaves the worksite leaving others to finish the job, the owner does not get paid. One contractor did this to me and it won't happen again.

And it won't hurt to file a complaint to the FTC about the business practices between wholesalers and installers. If you think I don't present a valid point, then listen to this: Some time ago, I was in a plumbing supply company and I overheard the owner say to another "we only deal with stocking distributors".


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## Bjd (Dec 19, 2003)

I am sure glad that you do not live around here, and yes I do mark up!!

How in the hell do you expect us to make any money without a mark up.

You must work for a large scale corp, with 6 weeks vacation, a great 401 K and way too much health insurance.

Just how does your company pay for that? 

And where do you get off asking for copies of EPA certs for the crew, that sure is a great way to start a job. Please do that to your installer before he starts the job, and see what happens to your relationship with him.

I know it would sure put a damper on mine all of my guys have there certs, however just asking to produce them would piss me off.

Do me a favor, go back under your rock.

BJD


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

rjordan392 said:


> If this employee leaves the worksite leaving others to finish the job, the owner does not get paid.


Yeah, that'll work. (work to get a lein filed on you). 


rjordan392 said:


> And it won't hurt to file a complaint to the FTC about the business practices between wholesalers and installers.


That would be a hoot.


rjordan392 said:


> If you think I don't present a valid point, then listen to this: Some time ago, I was in a plumbing supply company and I overheard the owner say to another "we only deal with stocking distributors".


I fail to see how that proves anything.

I'm not sure why any contractor in his right (or very left) mind would work for you. Are you retired from the government? Are you a college professor? On permanent disability? In my experience, you must be one of the three to have such wild opinions.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

Bjd,
All comsumer advisories recommend that the installer be EPA certified. The business EPA card does not count. Either the owner or one of the installing crew must have an EPA card, not all of the crew. If you don't have it, you don't work.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

rjordan392 said:


> All comsumer advisories recommend that the installer be EPA certified.


Last I checked, no consumer advisory body's recommendations have the rule of law in any jurisdiction. They're just another batch of liberal business haters.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

<I fail to see how that proves anything.>

It proves that business people think thay are a step above the rest. If they can say; " we only deal with stocking distributors " then how about my right to deal with stocking contractors if you can find one. That why I say its immoral for them to charge a markup on items that they do not have an investment in. They can make enough money on delivery charges, installations and repair.

As for those who get their backup when a customer asks to see their EPA card ,
should get out of the business. This card is insurance for the customer in case there is a problem with a warranty claim against the installation. What kind of claim would a customer have if the installer does not possess an EPA card. Just as it is the homeowners responibility to check that the HVAC company has proper insurance, you check for the card also.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

rjordan392 said:


> It proves that business people think thay are a step above the rest.


They are, indeed. They've gone the extra mile to start and operate a business to not only provide products and services, but provide for their famillies. That makes business owners a step above in my book. What have you spent your lifetime doing (other than whining about business people making a profit)?



rjordan392 said:


> ...you check for the card also.


Okay, here's both of mine. Article 608 Universal and article 609 special mobile. Where's yours?


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## HVAC Doc (Apr 1, 2004)

rjordan392
This card is insurance for the customer in case there is a problem with a warranty claim against the installation.[/QUOTE said:


> Actually, all an EPA license does is allow you to purchase refrigerant and put gauges on a refrigerant circuit and do repairs. That's it. It is not a sign of competence as far as ability to size equipment, do a load calculation, properly wire and set up a system or anything else. It means you passed a series of 100 question tests. Thats all. In our state, a Journeymans mechanical or Masters mechanical license carries far more weight considering guys just graduating tech school with zero field experience come out with an EPA card. Oh and one other thing, as for consumer sites recommending having an EPA card, many of them also state this:
> 
> Don't Confuse EPA Certification with State Licensing
> Finally, be aware that many individuals will imply that they are licensed to work on air conditioners because they possess Environmental Protection Agency certification allowing them to purchase refrigerants such as Freon. An EPA certificate, while important, is a far cry from a state license. To obtain an EPA certificate, an individual must own and know how to use a recovery unit. The recovery unit captures the refrigerant which is released when a technician is working on an air conditioner or heat pump. This process reduces the damage caused to the ozone by refrigerants. An individual may become EPA certified and be allowed to purchase refrigerant for the purpose of servicing his own home, his place of business, or his automobiles. However, the possession of an EPA certificate does not qualify him to work for pay on others' residential or commerical cooling and heating systems.
> ...


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

HVAC Doc said:


> However, the possession of an EPA certificate does not qualify him to work for pay on others' residential or commerical cooling and heating systems.


BRAVO!! In fact, I would add that the posession of an EPA card might not even qualify a person to install the gauges, although they are technically permitted to do so with the card. Let me pass along the inside scoop on this card to others. You don't earn it. You "buy" it. Any monkey can take the little class in which they teach you the test, and then sit down and regurgitate the information on the test form. Viola... EPA card in the mail.


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

exactly what is immoral about a 10% markup.anyone who what make such a statement has no idea of the costs efforts and hardwork that go into running contracting bussiness. hey may we should have a state system were the goverment sets the rates and prices contractors can charge. hmmm smells like communism??? yeah i know free enterprise is great thing except when it involves your contractor.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

HVACDOC,
You might ask how your distributor manages to stock the equipment and pay all the expenses of running his business. As a stocking distributor, he adds a profit on just sales and is well deserved. You buy it at retail, not wholesale. Distributors who claim they are selling wholesale is bull.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

<What have you spent your lifetime doing (other than whining about business people making a profit)?>

mdshunk,
I spent the last 27 years as a fire fighter and got a lot more thanks then you will see in your lifetime.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

mdshunk,
And any monkey without an epa card or qualifications can be taught how to hookup guages to a condensor ( its called factory training; am I right or am I right?)


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## HVAC Doc (Apr 1, 2004)

rjordan392 said:


> HVACDOC,
> You might ask how your distributor manages to stock the equipment and pay all the expenses of running his business. As a stocking distributor, he adds a profit on just sales and is well deserved. You buy it at retail, not wholesale. Distributors who claim they are selling wholesale is bull.


I am not naive as to how my distributor makes money. He marks up the units he sells me. That's a given and not rocket science. But, in no way could I buy in the mass quantities that my distributor does when they sell to 100's of other HVAC contractors, housing authorities, apartment complexes, etc. In other words, I cannot move the same quantity of product as a distributor can. But as for it not being wholesale, I couldn't buy a unit off the web for what I pay for my equipment from my distributor. I suspect if that parts house told you 1800.00 for a furnace, they gave you a retail price of the unit. I do not even pay close to 1800.00 for even a top end 90%plus 2 stage variable speed unit Lennox or Carrier.


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

*I have*

I have a hot water boiler I wish it was as cheap to replace as a forced air furance. :Thumbs:


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

I can't believe i've been ignoring this thread thinking it would be boring


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

rjordan- your comments buttress my long held opinion that there is no form of gainful employment more effective at breeding uninformed, self-agrandizing, socialist ignoramuses than civil service. While I'll grant you that not all civil servants are over-compensated under-achievers, I think it's fair to say that 70% - 90% of them are. Thank God the military is a shining exception when it comes to getting the job done.

If you were to be as 'honest' a consumer as you desire your contractor to be an honest businessman, you'd afford those contractors who provide you bids a 'full disclosure' of your performance and service requirements, along with your technical requirements, for consideration in preparing a bid. You're certainly more likely to get the finished product you want if you're honest about spelling out what that entails. Of course, if you did that, you'd expose yourself to the possibility of having to pay a fair price for those requirements rather than pay the price for what the contractor otherwise thought was required. It seems to me what you really want is something for nothing.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

HVAC Doc,
Dare I suggest that $1800.00 is the list price that is used to scare off
those with limited mechanical and electrical ability. If they insist on purchasing it, then so be it. That's extra for the distributor but all qualified purchasers pay the retail price and are being told their getting it wholesale.


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## HVAC Doc (Apr 1, 2004)

rjordan392 said:


> HVAC Doc,
> Dare I suggest that $1800.00 is the list price that is used to scare off
> those with limited mechanical and electrical ability. If they insist on purchasing it, then so be it. That's extra for the distributor but all qualified purchasers pay the retail price and are being told their getting it wholesale.


Call it list price call it retail price, call it a purple balloon but contractors do not pay 1800.00 for a furnace. And yes, contractors do get their equipment wholesale from the DISTRIBUTOR as the distributor gets their equipment wholesale from the MANUFACTURER. It all goes down hill as I mentioned before distributors pay less than we pay for the equipment. And again as I mentioned before they can get the price breaks for equipment that I cannot due to volume. They get their 2 ton 10 SEER a/c units for about 200.00 a pop. I pay 325.00 a pop. So what? I know a fellow dealer who is larger than me that pays just under 300.00 for his and smaller dealers pay a little more. Please do not even for a moment suggest you know what contractors are or aren't getting from their distributors and that you know "how the system" works. You obviously need to take some economics and small business classes. Prices to contractors alot of times is based on volume volume volume. The more you can move, the better your break. Same goes for supplies such as refrigerant. If I buy it by the jug, I pay X amount. If I buy it by the pallet, I can get an around a $9 per jug discount which adds to my bottom line since my flat rate is set up on regular price parts costs, not sales prices.


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## Bjd (Dec 19, 2003)

This guy has to be a divorce lawyer, what I think he is asking is if we pay X ammount for an iteam thats what he wants to pay without any mark up.

Why dont you just do us all a great be favor and buy your own stuff, and then you will not have worry about us screwing you.

I do mark up and will keep on doing it!!

Next time you are at the food mart, ask the guy there what they pay for butter, maybe he will make it down for you.

BJD


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

<you will not have worry about us screwing you.>
Bjd,
What do you call it when a customer AC system is low on freon and all you do is add more, knowing that you will be back again. Why don't you send someone out with qualifications to remove the remaining freon and find the source of the leak? That's why you own a vacumn pump, is it not? 

And I say to all who think I am looking for something for nothing; the next time you see the local fire department rescue a family.....Guess what! No charge!
Would you like to venture a guess what it may cost for 2 ladder trucks, four engines and about 21 men if you had to pay for it. In my city, they already charge for ambulance service (on a separate call) to your insurance company or you if you don't have it. 

Well I won't be posting on HVAC anymore, I learned more then I should have. When you get someone pissed off, they usually say too much to the dismay of other contractors and amusement of non contractors.


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## HVAC Doc (Apr 1, 2004)

rjordan392 That's why you own a vacumn pump said:


> That statement right there shows your ignorance. No we do not use vacuum pumps to remove refrigerant, we use recovery units. Vacuum pumps are to remove moisture and non-condensibles from a refrigeration system. As for charge and go, 90% of customers balk at paying for the labor to find the leak and/or fix it. Most phone calls that come in are " Hey my a/c isn't cooling, I had freon put in last year. What does it cost to have it topped off again?" You are right about one thing, we did find you very amusing. Thanks for the laugh!!


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## NickTech (Feb 13, 2005)

i do believe that the fire department is not free. taxes, my friend taxes pays the FD. i hate to get in a pissing match, but you are questioning the integrity of our work ethic. let me ask you, the times you weren't fighting fires and hanging around the fire house doing nothing...waiting for something to happen....did you stop getting paid. did you get paid per fire, or were you being paid while most of the time doing nothing waiting for something to catch fire? thats your business, and this is ours.


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## NickTech (Feb 13, 2005)

what would you think as a tax payer i demanded that all firemen were paid on a fire by fire basis......., what would you say? or that I as a tax payer felt ripped off because my taxes were going to fire men who for the most part do nothing but wait around all day for something....what would you say to that?!


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

HVAC DOC,
<As for charge and go, 90% of customers balk at paying for the labor to find the leak and/or fix it. >
You just confirmed my belief that 90% of the people have common sense. I just got a bid for a replacement gas furnace and A coil. Its the American Standard Comfort R model Freedom 80 with two stage heater operation and variable speed motor, 60,000 btu imput, for a total price of $3950.00. 

The owner has got to be kidding, this is not a new install but a replacement job. 
At that cost, he must be making $1500.00 to $2000.00. That's one big hellava pay day for an estimated 5 hours for one technician by himself.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

<but you are questioning the integrity of our work ethic.>
Nick Tech, The work ethic has nothing to do with materials cost or labor rates. I'll tell you something. You won,t find anything in my postings knocking down anyone choice of occupation. But when it is mentioned that civil service employee's such as fire fighters are over compensated under achievers, then the line is overstepped. You don't need a skilled occupation before you become one, just the courage to be one.
Pipe Guy and those who agree with him should hang their heads in shame. 

If I can't get my job done for $1000.00 over cost, then I"ll forget about the A coil and install the gas furnace myself. I installed my present furnace and can do it again.


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## HVAC Doc (Apr 1, 2004)

rjordan392 said:


> At that cost, he must be making $1500.00 to $2000.00. That's one big hellava pay day for an estimated 5 hours for one technician by himself.


Actually not. You have no clue as to the costs of running a business and this statement proves it. After getting done paying FICA, Medicare, Fedral, State and unemployment taxes plus the techs hourly pay wage that is a big chunk gone. Next, lets add to it the cost of fuel for the van, taxes, tags and insurance as well. Don't forget utilities and lease/mortgage payment for the shop. Phones are also needed plus pager/Nextel/ Cell phone charges. Hmm and the distributors want paid for the parts/equipment bought to service your unit or install a new one. Not alot left. HVAC companies would love to make a 15% profit margin. I made at the end of the year 6.33% profit margin. So out of that BIG $2000 you think the owner is just walking away with, I would of made $126.00 out of that after paying all expenses to be in business. My tech would be making an approx. $100 to $125 dollars for those 5 hrs. Who do you think gets the better end of the deal?? Get a fricking clue you idiot!!! You have ZERO idea of how a business operates or the cost to exist. I am now done with this thread as you have shown your stupidity well enough.


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## NickTech (Feb 13, 2005)

yeahhhhhhhhhhh


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

As the son of a firefighter 25years fdny, and in- law of two current nyc firefighters i have an interesting perspective on this. i find if quite amazing that a proffessinal firefighter is advocating the right of untrained novices to install or service fuel gas burning appliance,cosidering the consequences of an improper installation, co poisioning,fire,and explosion.arent you supposed to be the life safty expert.in our area only lic plumber can pull a permit for gas piping or installation,this not due to building dept but gas company regulation.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

HVAC DOC,
So out of $2000.00, you and the technician make $251.00 and expenses takes the rest. Tell that to the gullible. Do the math over and this time don't count what you pay weekly, monthly or quarterly for expenses. Take a percentage of the gross profit for just the expenses for this job only. At the way you explained your expenses, nobody in their right mind would work for themselves.


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## HVAC Doc (Apr 1, 2004)

Again, you still have no clue. Since HVAC can be very weather dependant, you would be commiting business suicide waiting to take out expenses in a quarterly fashion. You have to take it out to cover per job because in those times when there is hardly any work due to warm weather in winter or a cool summer, the bills STILL have to be paid. Service techs and installers still have to be paid, insurance still has to be paid, lights still have to be kept on. Please continue to display your ignorance of running a business, you are quite a laughing stock!!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

rjordan392 said:


> .... nobody in their right mind would work for themselves.


Well, part right here. I sometimes wonder why I work for myself too.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

Bergenbldr,
Take time to read all my posts. Nowhere will you find that I advocate that unqualified others install or service gas appliances. I am retired now but thirty years ago, I installed a gas furnace in my home with no problems. Back then, things were much simpler. Furnaces came ready to run and all that was needed was to hook up the piping and electricity. Today may be a differant story. I worked in sheetmetal for a few years and learned to build machinary from blueprints before I became a firefighter. I taught myself through watching others and reading books on installing electric circuits with the proper size wire. So I considered myself qualified to do the work back then. I used a heating and air conditioning book to determine the heat and cooling load on my residence. It is probally outdated and no use to me now, I figure. The furnace has not given me any problems since its installation. But it is old now and will need replacement soon. Even though I feel confident, I can still install the new furnace, I will say that I do not know electronics and any instructions to adjust the furnace through them is just enough to deter me from doing it all myself. So I will try to find professional help at a reasonable cost. Again, you must read the whole thread, especially where one of the members here called 90% of civil servants overcompensated under achievers and other remarks that were made about firefighters. No where will you see any thing I said that downgrades anybody's occupation. I am questioning their pricing policies only.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

bergenbldr said:


> i find if quite amazing that a proffessinal firefighter is advocating the right of untrained novices to install or service fuel gas burning appliance,cosidering the consequences of an improper installation


I smell POND water :cheesygri


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

rjordan392,your original post stated that the hvac wholesaler refused to sell you a hot air gas furnace with out a epa card. the wholesaler has no idea if you or any other homeowner has the knowledge or experience to install install it correctly.this mainly a liability insurance issue. you may be perfectly able to install it correcty but the wholesaler has no way of knowing that.hell,i may be perfectly able the remove someones appenidix after reading a medical textbook,doesn't mean i shoud.as for deriding one's proffesian,you seem the take the famaliar all contractors are crooks making too make money position.you seem to have a big problem with a contractor making a profit on his bussiness.a profit is necessary to stay in businness, the size of that profit is determined by two factors one being the market the other how well he runs his bussiness i.e. charging a proper markup.


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## MechAcc (Feb 27, 2005)

rjordan392 said:


> Where would we all be if everyone was a contractor. "I'll tell you" ... we would all be in the same boat, under employed. I suppose keeping the contractor honest is bad news on this forum.



Well if everyone was a contractor, then who would be a doctor, or more importantly a farmer so we can nourish and sustain ourselves. Being a contractor is no more important than your unlisted profession. Charging an amount to cover costs and projected increases in costs is correct and right. The contractor graveyard is littered with the corpses of those that get into the never ending spiral of cutting costs below other contractors. They end up cutting things that the homeowner may be unaware of such as training for their workers to do a proper install, or disconnect switches to service equipment. Instead of using separate drain piping or hoses for furnace condensate, air conditioning and humidifiers they tie everything together into one pipe or hose and many times even reduce the diameter to restrict water flow which may end up causing furnace problems. Or rather than installing a liner for an exposed chimeny they install a furnace without one. Then the furnace rots out in a few years. Shortly they are out of business because they have priced themselves out of the market and their installs look it. Or they don't carry workmen's comp insurance, or they may not be bonded or carry no insurance at all. If someone gets injured who pays then? Will anyone pay? Or they may not pull a permit to do the job if one is required. Am sure that others on this forum can add to the horror stories as well.

The homeowner usually ends up with shoddy installs from lowballers. My recommendation is if you think the price is too high then shop around to find a handyman or contractor that meets your price range.
But you might get just what you pay for.


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## MechAcc (Feb 27, 2005)

rjordan392 said:


> <you will not have worry about us screwing you.>
> Bjd,
> What do you call it when a customer AC system is low on freon and all you do is add more, knowing that you will be back again. Why don't you send someone out with qualifications to remove the remaining freon and find the source of the leak? That's why you own a vacumn pump, is it not?


Actually a, for your information, vacuum pump is for removing air an noncondensibles from the system after repairs you need a refrigerant recovery machine to remove the refrigerant. Unless you hired one of them lowballers that are venting the refrigerant into the atmosphere. In that case video tape the incident and turn them into the EPA and get them off the street for honest contractors.


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## MechAcc (Feb 27, 2005)

rjordan392 said:


> HVAC DOC,
> <As for charge and go, 90% of customers balk at paying for the labor to find the leak and/or fix it. >
> You just confirmed my belief that 90% of the people have common sense. I just got a bid for a replacement gas furnace and A coil. Its the American Standard Comfort R model Freedom 80 with two stage heater operation and variable speed motor, 60,000 btu imput, for a total price of $3950.00.
> 
> ...


Yes you are quite right that is a replacement job. Now a new install just for heating in the 50's ran close to half the cost of the entire house according to my hvac history teacher. You sure don't even pay half the cost of house to install furnace and even air conditioning with the duct work and even zoned systems for good measure.


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## MechAcc (Feb 27, 2005)

rjordan392 said:



> HVAC DOC,
> <As for charge and go, 90% of customers balk at paying for the labor to find the leak and/or fix it. >
> You just confirmed my belief that 90% of the people have common sense. I just got a bid for a replacement gas furnace and A coil. Its the American Standard Comfort R model Freedom 80 with two stage heater operation and variable speed motor, 60,000 btu imput, for a total price of $3950.00.
> 
> ...


So you are saying that the price should be cut and the secretary fired just to make you happy for a cheaper price?????? 


Sorry fellow tradesmen about my replies but I have seen some of the worse of installs by both DIYers and Lowballers that have no clue as to proper equipment sizing and installs.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

MechAcc,
I had two estimates so far and one may be a low baller as you say. I don't think I'll be dealing with him as he uses a P.O. box for an address and I could not find any information on him from the BBB. 
I am getting the impression that there are contractors here who are what we call "working out of a suitcase". Whereas they rent some of their equipment to perform their work and pass on the full expense to the customer. This may sound right to them but a good mechanic has an investment in his own tools and equipment and only pass's on a percentage of the cost to every customer for the estimated life of the equipment. After all, he gets to depreciate them for tax purposes too. If a contractor gets only two jobs a week, the customer is not responsible for the other two he thinks he should have and have to make up for it by paying extra for a full tank of gas, a weeks worth of phone bills, three days of truck payments, etc, etc, etc, when the job only take 5 to 8 hours for one technician. When I first started out as a sheet metal trainee, I was told by my foreman that I was expected to purchase my own tools. I saw what the mechanics were using and I purchased the same with my $1.35 an hour salary at the rate of one tool a week. "That was my investment" at the beginning of my working life.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

rjordan392 said:


> they rent some of their equipment to perform their work and pass on the full expense to the customer. This may sound right to them but a good mechanic has an investment in his own tools and equipment and only pass's on a percentage of the cost to every customer for the estimated life of the equipment.


You're confusing tools and equipment. Of course, "tools" should be owned by the tradesman or contractor. Equipment is often rented or leased. Look at any large high-rise or large commercial project, and 90% of all the trade equipment on the job is rented or leased. Being an electrical contractor, I find it more useful to rent the $10,000 cam track hydraulic bender setup per the specific job rather than to own it for the 2-3 jobs a year that I'd need to use it.


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

mdshunk,
This is about residential work not large scale commercial or industrial jobs. I believe that years ago, the HVAC installer used one of those pipe benders to install the refrigerant lines. This type of work does not require high priced equipment. I don't consider a vacumn pump or recovery unit high priced equipment, but one respondee mentioned the cost of renting a recovery unit was part of the cost of the job. I already mentioned that the technician can recover his costs based on the life of the equipment and he could charge each customer a percentage of that cost and still be able to depreciate it for tax purposes. Now this is an investment that will pay off, unlike the sales of equipment where the HVAC company has no investment in.


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## Bjd (Dec 19, 2003)

Still no clue?

"The hvac co has no investment in" I forgot that you ordered, checked and delivered your own unit.

If not, then who has the investment until the entire project is complete?

BJD


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## MechAcc (Feb 27, 2005)

rjordan392 said:


> Just today, a clerk told me that installers can use the companys EPA card. But that does not sit well if the installer does not have the required training and experience to get his own EPA card. Years ago, gas furnaces were like plug and run. But now these units are getting like high tech. I'll be asking the winning bidder for his EPA card.


All service technicians must have certification on the type of equipment that they are servicing and a copy of that certification must be on file with their employer. Check http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/608fact.html


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## rjordan392 (Feb 9, 2005)

Bjd,
If I were to purchase this otc, then the investment is mine because I am the end user. Also to make something clear, I stated earlier that I was shopping for a new gas furnace. Some took this to mean I wanted to install it myself. I admit that it appears that way, but my intention was just to match quality with pricing so that I could compare it with other brands. The sales clerk at the distributor would not cooperate and give me any type of price. Obviously, if a unit is a few hundred dollars more or less then other brands, then I would want to know why, if all other specifications and perks were the same. The only thing I got to judge for quality is Comsumers Reports recent article on the frequency of repair of the top 12 brands. This report does have some weight, although limited because it did not indicate if the brands were simular, with the same perks which would make a differance because a manufacturer may just be having a problem with one particular model in his line.


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## NickTech (Feb 13, 2005)

_..............................is he gone?........................_


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