# SURETOUCH: What do you guys think?



## DannyBoyDan (Feb 2, 2010)

The ole Kentucky boy here again, after I first joined here, I got so busy that I couldn't see the light of day, now I'm just desperate to make bills. heh. No, I haven't done bad work anywhere, I just got lucky for a bit, but still hold the reputation as the 'Young New Guy in town' lol

Just wanted to know what you folks thought about SURETOUCH. I hadn't ever heard anything about it until a few weeks ago. I went to Nashville this week to a training seminar and I liked what I seen (Specifically that it comes in real clay brick). If you don't know what it is, I'll elaborate a bit;

It's a masonry veneer that is composed of all stainless steel hardware, Polystyrene panels, a special mortar mix, and precast stones or brick. The Precast stone and brick are colored all the way through, which is nice, and they have it in a real clay brick.

It ad's an R-13.5 Insulation value and has a built in water drainage system. It qualifies for up to a 1500$ tax credit on the Polystyrene from the GOV. It's a green Product, 100% Recyclable. I liked it, and it's super simple to install. I just wondered what others thought about it.




























I don't have pictures of the Real Clay Brick unfortunately, I didn't take my camera with me to Nashville and these photos of are the canadian product (Product started in Canada). The Real Clay Brick is an option from the USA only.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Why do you need a hard hat and safety goggles to play with legos?


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## masonlifer (Jun 10, 2007)

What do they say the cost per sq ft is just for materials?


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## DannyBoyDan (Feb 2, 2010)

masonlifer said:


> What do they say the cost per sq ft is just for materials?


About $6-$6.50 sqft.

That includes the Brick or Stone, Polystyrene, and Mortar. It all comes on a single pallet, you get 1 piece of Polystyrene extra on every pallet. Also get all the hardware (Screws and Anchors) for that pallet, I forget how much is on 1 single pallet. It's different for the Stone and brick. I think the Stone is like 160 something, and the brick is right at 200sqft on a pallet.


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## DannyBoyDan (Feb 2, 2010)

Tscarborough said:


> Why do you need a hard hat and safety goggles to play with legos?


The Hardhat is because while the things will stick in the polystyrene and stay there, there is a potential for it to come out of the polystyrene and fall until the Mortar is injected. I would not want to take one of these things to the head.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

One problem could be that you can't adjust the size of the joints to run the brick or stone into the frames properly, so you could be left with some really small cuts against the frames. This looks to be the case in the in the first photo, which could be why they have not gone right up to it for the photo. The top looks like a small split as well.
The quoins are a bit of a giveaway for not being a real stone house.
When you make systems for house building that semi, or unskilled labour can put up you usually find that the quality is poor, as in general a good quality tradesman will have a lot more pride in his work. 
This was proved here after the war when houses and tradesmen where in short supply and a lot of PRC system built houses were put up by unskilled labour. Most of these now have serious problems due to poor workmanship.


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## DannyBoyDan (Feb 2, 2010)

stuart45 said:


> One problem could be that you can't adjust the size of the joints to run the brick or stone into the frames properly, so you could be left with some really small cuts against the frames. This looks to be the case in the in the first photo, which could be why they have not gone right up to it for the photo. The top looks like a small split as well.
> The quoins are a bit of a giveaway for not being a real stone house.
> When you make systems for house building that semi, or unskilled labour can put up you usually find that the quality is poor, as in general a good quality tradesman will have a lot more pride in his work.
> This was proved here after the war when houses and tradesmen where in short supply and a lot of PRC system built houses were put up by unskilled labour. Most of these now have serious problems due to poor workmanship.


Actually, you can adjust the joints just break the verticle edges out of the panel and you can have custom sized joint. The verticle partitions for the cells in the stone panels is just there as a guide for layout and nothing definitive, the horizontal partitions of the cell are what hold hte stones up. The stone is a standard 3/4" joint but can be adjusted for better fit around openings. I like the Brick much better than the stone like I said I just don't have pictures of it right now. The first photo was actually from the this old house website (I thought they were professionals?). I will agree, they didn't plan their layout very well. None of this is my work, I've yet to sell a job with it, I've only been able to buy it since Wednesday after I took their training seminar. Just wondered what other folks thought of the product.

The brick is not an issue at all (which is why i liked it more), as there is no edge to the cell to define a mortar joint (other than at top and bottom which could potentially be an issue), you set your own mortar joint, there are marks on the panel as a guideline for a standard 3/8" mortar joint but you can adjust the width of that joint to break well on windows, doors, and corners. I fell in love with the brick option of this stuff. I am gonna try to find some photos of the brick.

When I say this is simple, you will have to have some skill and experience in masonry to do it. That is one thing they stressed before I signed up for the seminar is they wanted to know how much experience I had in masonry. I have some, I packed hot many years ago, and laid block. So I've had some experience, it's just not my specialized trade. I'm not fast at it by no means, but do deliver an outstanding product. I do a fair amount of it in outdoor kitchens and things of that nature, and a little tuckpoint. However, I'm no bricklayer. There is nothing in the rulebook that says someone can't provide a quality product outside of their, I dunno, it may be unspoken, I'm still new around here.

There is a catch with this stuff, you must go through their training seminar before they will sell it to you (in the USA anyway) as this isn't a product that you can just pick up from your masonry supplier (that's what they told us at the seminar). Personally, I'm gonna run with it, and push the clay brick, and provide the stone if someone wants it.

I assure you, I'm no handyman playing contractor my friend.  If you didn't mean that statement to come across that way, it's all good. If you did, well, it's still all good cause I really don't care. :tt2:

Anyway, thanks for the input.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

DannyBoyDan,
I am not talking about you personally being a handyman turned contractor, just that in general simplified systems that imitate traditional building can often lead to poor quality workmanship. This have been proved here as I mentioned. 
I am talking about possible problems with the system. I can see how you could adjust the head joints, but bed joints also need to be adjusted to reach cill, frame head heights etc, so this may be an issue. 
As with any new system the long term life span can only be proved with the test of time. As you stated the mortar injection in the joints holds them in tight. In 50 years time after the brickwork has expanded and the joints erroded and cracked allowing water in there could be problems with them dropping out. 
This is only guesswork on my part and the system may well take off and replace traditional masonry.
I wish you the best of luck with it, although I hope it stays your side of the water. We have started to get the brick veneer houses over here now, and these have about 8% of the new house market.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Imitating brickwork was done in the 18th century with mathematical tiles. They looked identical to brickwork apart from the fact that they were too perfect. 







http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/page_id__6738_path__0p116p1230p.aspx


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I call these types of "systems" Disneyworld products: They look like the real thing from the street, but no matter what they are not the real thing.


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## DannyBoyDan (Feb 2, 2010)

stuart45 said:


> DannyBoyDan,
> I am not talking about you personally being a handyman turned contractor, just that in general simplified systems that imitate traditional building can often lead to poor quality workmanship. This have been proved here as I mentioned.
> I am talking about possible problems with the system. I can see how you could adjust the head joints, but bed joints also need to be adjusted to reach cill, frame head heights etc, so this may be an issue.
> As with any new system the long term life span can only be proved with the test of time. As you stated the mortar injection in the joints holds them in tight. In 50 years time after the brickwork has expanded and the joints erroded and cracked allowing water in there could be problems with them dropping out.
> ...


It will never replace traditional Masonry. I don't foresee anything ever being able to. That's what I was talking about was the horizontal partitions in the panel (bed joints) aren't adjustbable and they could cause a problem.

This stuff will eventually need to be repointed. No doubt about it, it is not without fault, and far from perfect no product is. I like it for the idea of a retrofit. It eliminates the need for the footer. the Mortar is composed of a higher amount of hydrated lime, so in theory, it will reset some of the cracks. It has a drainage system behind it in the poylstyrene panels. Like you said, Time will tell. The stuff they have in canada that has been up for several years has weathered really well. 

thanks for the input.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

What is the weight per SqFt? I thought I read on the site that it was around 40#s per Sqft? If so, that can not be hung off standard framing.


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## DannyBoyDan (Feb 2, 2010)

Tscarborough said:


> What is the weight per SqFt? I thought I read on the site that it was around 40#s per Sqft? If so, that can not be hung off standard framing.


it's about 22lbs per sqft.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

I don't hate it......at least it cannot be butchered by horrible craftsmanship, since there isn't a whole lot of it needed....the picture looks pretty nice, except for that *ugly* precast set of steps....It's funny, go back 3 thousand years and you get Machu Pichu and the pyramids, then stonehenge and Angor Wat (sp?) Then we get the Taj Mahal and the great cathedrals.....now we have panelized concrete stone and stick on brick....sheesh...any proponent of evolution would have an awful hard time explaining away the trajectory of masonry....


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

Rockmonster said:


> .....now we have panelized concrete stone and stick on brick....sheesh...any proponent of evolution would have an awful hard time explaining away the trajectory of masonry....


So true, but we ARE living in the Walmart era. :whistling


I think it finishes out well asthetically on the house shown, but that is not a retro-fit either. Probably a home built with a 4" brickledge to accept the fake veneer.

I'd be aprehensive to "hang" a 22# per sq. foot veneer off the sheating 2"+ before getting to the veneer. I'm assuming the 2"+ merely from the R13 insulation claim. I have to think that this system is still 4" deep, so it will be hard to finish out at the base w/o a brick ledge.

I should mention that 22#'s isn't very lightweight either, I've probably laid real brick assemblies that weren't much heavier.


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## DannyBoyDan (Feb 2, 2010)

jomama said:


> So true, but we ARE living in the Walmart era. :whistling
> 
> 
> I think it finishes out well asthetically on the house shown, but that is not a retro-fit either. Probably a home built with a 4" brickledge to accept the fake veneer.
> ...


You would be correct that you still need some form of a brick ledge, however it's not there for structural. The home in the picture actually is a retrofit. They discussed this photo in the seminar and if I remember right, this was actually the home of the president of one of the sister companies in Canada.


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## masonlifer (Jun 10, 2007)

Could you show a side cut on the wall. I would like to see how water is drained from behind the insulation. Also, have there been any siesmic studies done on this system?


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## DannyBoyDan (Feb 2, 2010)

masonlifer said:


> Could you show a side cut on the wall. I would like to see how water is drained from behind the insulation. Also, have there been any siesmic studies done on this system?


I'll have some samples in my possession in a few weeks. I will give you detailed pictures of the foam then, and the drainage system I don't have any right now unfortunately. If you look closely at the installation pictures on the foam, you can see the channels in the front of the panels that drain the water, and there are channels on the back of the foam as well.

I did get some pictures of the brick in my inbox this morning though. I'm attempting to bid this on a state project here locally that is about to take place and needed some photo's.

They are on my temporary site, too large to post here (I don't know how to resize them) at 

http://www.peterscontracting.webs.com/

I hope to be investing in a domain in a few weeks.

As for your seismic studies question...I have no idea, I will ask my rep next time I get a chance to talk to him which will hopefully be later this week if I get good news from the state project I'm looking at.


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## DannyBoyDan (Feb 2, 2010)

masonlifer said:


> Could you show a side cut on the wall. I would like to see how water is drained from behind the insulation. Also, have there been any siesmic studies done on this system?


Also, I see you're from Tennessee, this stuff is made right in your back yard. Let me know if you're interested and I'll give you my guy's name from Adams Products. Really nice guy and one of the most helpful Vendors I've ever worked with.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

You can see more on their website.
http://www.suretouch.ca/e/4-a-galerie.htm


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