# I got a real brain teaser here if anyone wants a crack at it



## 6tring (Mar 27, 2010)

First of all I would like to say hello and extend a friendly handshake to everyone

I have a very, very bizarre situation going on for 3 months now and this is the only thing left for me to get an answer as all other options have been exhausted.

I'm going to copy and paste the same question that I've been posting on numerous guitar sites in cyber world. It has got to be an electrical issue.

This is it.

Well heres my problem and its a very maddening one. I've been to numerous guitar sites and have left to continue my quest for the answer.
I feel like a drifter going from city to city searching for a golden orb or something lol.

O.k. I have a gnx 3k a zoom g2.1u and a zoom g9.2tt all in x-cond. **these are multi effects processors that come with their own power adapters.** For guitars I have a Jackson RR1 (my baby) a Jackson dinky and a Dean Dimebag all with emg 81's in the bridge and a 7 string B.C. Rich with passive pickups.

**The difference between active & passive pickups is active takes a 9v battery and passives dont.**

Now...about 3 months ago before I had my g9, whenever I would play on any dirty patch the signal would get very weak and sound like total crap but the clean patches would be sweet and crisp like always, so I thought my gnx 3k was just getting old and going down the drain. Well I got my g9.2tt a, nd the same thing kept happening, so I dug out my g2.1u and the same thing happened. No matter what I do it always happens. 

I changed batteries, cables, rooms, pickups, every arrangement possible and the same thing. 

Somebody somewhere HAS to have the solution for this mystery.

*This next section is for this site.*

Someone on a job site mentioned that maybe the power coming from the outside lines or circuit breaker could be the issue. He asked if I had a power failure 3 months ago and I do remember the power going out for about 30 seconds and then back on. Last night after work I flipped the main off for about 1/2 minute and back on again. It seemed to have gotten a little better but not all the way. He also said that the acoustic channels use less power than the distorted channels?? Do you guys think thats true? If it is what would I need to do to test this theory? It truly is my very last option.

I know that some of this guitar stuff "might" be kinda hard to understand so if I dident explain it good enough I'd be more than happy to talk over the phone if anyone wants to.

Thanks

6tring


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Try using a different circuit and see if that makes a difference.

Not just another outlet.... it may be on the same circuit. Make sure you're on another circuit and see if the problem is still there.


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## 6tring (Mar 27, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Try using a different circuit and see if that makes a difference.
> 
> Not just another outlet.... it may be on the same circuit. Make sure you're on another circuit and see if the problem is still there.


Hi Sparky, I did that too all over the apt.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

6tring said:


> Hi Sparky, I did that too all over the apt.



It may be a hassle, but try someone else's house. Not another apartment in the building.... somewhere else in town.

If it does the same thing at a buddy's house, then you've eliminated the power source as the problem.


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## 6tring (Mar 27, 2010)

480sparky said:


> It may be a hassle, but try someone else's house. Not another apartment in the building.... somewhere else in town.
> 
> If it does the same thing at a buddy's house, then you've eliminated the power source as the problem.


Ya I could do that but is there any simple device I could buy at a home depot type store to test the power in my circuit breaker? It kinda is a hassle taking all my gear out (not too bad though) but I would really hate getting stuck at someones house plus I just started going back to work after being off from back surgery. This was my first week back at work and I did a little bit of light duty all week and I'm kinda hurting today and on serious pain meds and dont wanna drive. I'd rather just send my wife to home depot or something like that.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

6tring said:


> Ya I could do that but is there any simple device I could buy at a home depot type store to test the power in my circuit breaker? It kinda is a hassle taking all my gear out (not too bad though) but I would really hate getting stuck at someones house plus I just started going back to work after being off from back surgery. This was my first week back at work and I did a little bit of light duty all week and I'm kinda hurting today and on serious pain meds and dont wanna drive. I'd rather just send my wife to home depot or something like that.



There's not a $10 plug-in thingy that will work. it will only tell you there is proper polarity. You would need a Power Quality meter, and they start at $3 grand.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

How can you be so sure it's an electrical supply problem?

If I'm interpreting correctly, "clean" and "dirty" patches is something like the difference between [dating myself here] Chet Atkins and Jimi Hendrix. The latter is noisy, overdriven and full of spurious harmonics. That's a challenge for any gear to handle well month after month after year. While electronic circuitry is a lot more stable than mechanical stuff in general, components do shift in value over time, particularly when being pushed.

There's a fair chance that the problem is in your gear. But it's certainly more economical to take 480's suggestion and eliminate the supply part of the equation before taking your stuff in for service.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

In most apartments espicially older ones the only dedicated circuit is the plug on the stove. Plug your gear into it.

I'm telling you now I've only EVER have one power related problem EVER with AV equipment and it was a VCR that messed up everytime a near-by farm turned on their milking equipment. So chances are its not your power, sorry man.

I admit despite my knowledge of pro-av equipment and mics I really don't understand all of your guirtar lingo. Care to dumb it down a bit?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> In most apartments espicially older ones the only dedicated circuit is the plug on the stove. Plug your gear into it.....


The only time I ever rune a dedicated line to a stove is when it's electric. And most amps won't plug into a 240v outlet.

If it's gas, it's on with other outlets because a gas stove doesn't draw that much 'lektrickery.


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## 6tring (Mar 27, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> In most apartments espicially older ones the only dedicated circuit is the plug on the stove. Plug your gear into it.
> 
> I'm telling you now I've only EVER have one power related problem EVER with AV equipment and it was a VCR that messed up everytime a near-by farm turned on their milking equipment. So chances are its not your power, sorry man.
> 
> I admit despite my knowledge of pro-av equipment and mics I really don't understand all of your guirtar lingo. Care to dumb it down a bit?


Hi Inner10, I have an electric ignite stove and it does run on the same as everything else.

As far as dumbing it down, shoot, thats basicly as dumb'd down as it gets.


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## 6tring (Mar 27, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> How can you be so sure it's an electrical supply problem?
> 
> If I'm interpreting correctly, "clean" and "dirty" patches is something like the difference between [dating myself here] Chet Atkins and Jimi Hendrix. The latter is noisy, overdriven and full of spurious harmonics. That's a challenge for any gear to handle well month after month after year. While electronic circuitry is a lot more stable than mechanical stuff in general, components do shift in value over time, particularly when being pushed.
> 
> There's a fair chance that the problem is in your gear. But it's certainly more economical to take 480's suggestion and eliminate the supply part of the equation before taking your stuff in for service.


You got it right on how the gear works and the clean and dirty part. But theres no way it can be the gear because theres 3 different units with 3 different power supplies. 1 I always used thats 5 yrs old (which made me believe IT was the problem) 1 thats 3 yrs old and 1 that I bought new 3 weeks ago. The problem is with every unit so I know theres no way the gear at all. I even bought some very high end cables thinking that was it but it wasent either.

So I guess my only thing left to do is what 480 suggested. My wife said be more than happy to give me a ride cus she's getting sick of hearing me wine.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> The only time I ever rune a dedicated line to a stove is when it's electric. And most amps won't plug into a 240v outlet.
> 
> If it's gas, it's on with other outlets because a gas stove doesn't draw that much 'lektrickery.


I incorrectly made the assumption that you had an electric range and the older electric ranges always had a 110V outlet on the front that was dedicated. I don't know how many times I told people to plug their hi-fi gear into it to dispel their beliefs that it was the power.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

6tring said:


> ........My wife said be more than happy to give me a ride cus she's getting sick of hearing me wine.



Tell her to call a waahbulance. :laughing:








​


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

6string,
I am sure you are unaware of your achievement.
You have accomplished the near imposable, a non contractor coming in to the site, asking a question and not shown the door on the way out. :thumbsup:

Congrats,
Craig


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Craig it says he's a mason.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> Craig it says he's a mason.


If I listed my trade as proctologist,would you bend over and drop your shorts if I asked you to?:laughing:


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## EES (Jan 4, 2010)

Try your plugging your guitar into someone else's amp.


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## MAD Renovations (Nov 18, 2007)

EES said:


> Try your plugging your guitar into someone else's amp.


His wife my not like that!!!


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## 6tring (Mar 27, 2010)

JumboJack said:


> If I listed my trade as proctologist,would you bend over and drop your shorts if I asked you to?:laughing:


Yeah hey, I'm actually a gynecologist but dont tell my wife. She thinks I'm slinging mud and laying brick all day. Well....I am slinging and laying but it aint mud n brick. Just kidding, just kidding


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## 6tring (Mar 27, 2010)

charimon said:


> 6string,
> I am sure you are unaware of your achievement.
> You have accomplished the near imposable, a non contractor coming in to the site, asking a question and not shown the door on the way out. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


WOW!! When did masonry become non trade labor?? Go tell it to the boys in local 8 Milwaukee Wi. 

Thank you


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## 6tring (Mar 27, 2010)

EES said:


> Try your plugging your guitar into someone else's amp.


Did that. I have 2 and my 16 yr old son has 1, issue is still present.

The thing thats so mind boggeling is that we bought this place in 06 moved in 2/07 and everything was fine untill 3 months ago. I went to so many guitar sites trying to figure it out to no avail so after briefly talking to an electrician during lunch on Fri he kinda put the idea in my head that it could be electrical.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

6tring said:


> ........and everything was fine untill 3 months ago. ..........



My water heater worked just fine until it started leaking.

My truck brakes worked just fine until the pads wore out.

My printer worked just fine until it just died one day.



Point is.... nothing lasts forever. Your patch cords may have worked just fine, until 3 months ago.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Could this be a dirty power problem?

Had an issue at a High School where computers were blowing power supplies, phone system had problems and the band teacher complained about the electric guitar amps not working right. I brought in my Electrical Contractor and he found several dirty power issues. Fixed them and all are happy. It's just an idea so you *real sparkies* :notworthydon't hammer too hard. And all that guitar lingo in the OP might have well been written in Japanese or Greek.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

griz said:


> Could this be a dirty power problem?.........


That's why I suggested going to a friends house and trying it there. That would eliminate the power supply.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Could this be a dirty power problem?


Puh-Leeze! Explain to me what dirty power means. Low voltage can cause serious problems with electronics but dirty power?

"Here ya go sir you have to buy this $5000 power conditioner to clean up all your dirty power!" :clap:



> If I listed my trade as proctologist,would you bend over and drop your shorts if I asked you to?:laughing:


I'd be just at likely to hire you to renovate my house if you listed your trade as GC. :shifty:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Puh-Leeze! Explain to me what dirty power means. Low voltage can cause serious problems with electronics but dirty power?
> 
> "Here ya go sir you have to buy this $5000 power conditioner to clean up all your dirty power!" :clap:
> I'd be just at likely to hire you to renovate my house if you listed your trade as GC. :shifty:


Well I am glad to hear that you folks up north don't have this issue. Maybe it's because you have the $5000 "power conditioner" available to you. Never heard of that here. Dirty power is caused by the ground & neutrals cross connected or bonded some where in the system. It can occur at a piece of equipment or when a neutral wire's sheath is nicked causing it to touch the wall of a conduit or panel. It wreaks havoc with electronics. Stick to control systems up north because you wouldn't make it as a sparky down here.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Puh-Leeze! Explain to me what dirty power means. Low voltage can cause serious problems with electronics but dirty power?
> .......


You think 'Dirty Power' is a made-up term that means there's dirt falling out of your outlets? Large-scale electric consumers can spend thousands, if not millions of dollars locating, treating and managing power quality problems.


*Harmonics:* The electric power distribution system is designed to operate with sinusoidal voltages and currents.  But not all waveforms are sine waves. Electronic loads, for example, often draw current only at the peak of the voltage waveform, which always means that the current is distorted, and may distort the voltage as well. One convenient way to describe these waveforms is to make a list of sine waves that, when added together, reproduce the distorted waveform. The sine waves in this list are always multiples, or harmonics, of the fundamental frequency (50 Hz or 60 Hz). 

*Low frequency transients* are caused when a discharged power-factor-correction capacitor is switched on across the line. The capacitor then resonates with the inductance of the distribution system, typically at 400 - 600 Hz, and produce and exponentially damped decaying waveform. The peak of this waveform, in theory, cannot exceed twice the peak voltage of the sine wave, and is more typically 120% - 140% of the sine peak. However, in some specific circumstances, there can be "multiplication" of this transient by resonance with other power factor correction capacitors.

*High frequency transients* are caused by lightning, and by inductive loads turning off. Typical rise times are on the order of a microsecond; typical decay times are on the order of a tens to hundreds of microseconds. Often, the decay will be an exponential damped ringing waveform, with a frequency of approximately 100 kHz, which corresponds to the frequency of equivalent inductor/capacitor model of low voltage power lines. Typical peak voltages for end-use applications are hundreds of volts to a few thousand volts; several thousand amps of current may be available. 

*Frequency variations.* On utility grids, these are rare events, usually associated with catastrophic collapses on the grid. However, at sites with back-up diesel generators, they are common.*

High frequency noise.* This can be caused by anything from arcing brushes on a motor, to local radio transmitters.*

Mains signalling* Some utilities intentionally place small signals on the mains voltage to act as control signals (for example, they may control a capacitor switch, or they may instruct revenue meters to go to a different rate structure).*

EFT* Extremely Fast Transients are nano-second range transient overvoltages. Due to their high frequency content, they do not travel well over the mains circuits, getting damped out within a few meters. However, they can be caused by nearby contact arcing.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Well I am glad to hear that you folks up north don't have this issue. Maybe it's because you have the $5000 "power conditioner" available to you. Never heard of that here. Dirty power is caused by the ground & neutrals cross connected or bonded some where in the system. It can occur at a piece of equipment or when a neutral wire's sheath is nicked causing it to touch the wall of a conduit or panel. It wreaks havoc with electronics. Stick to control systems up north because you wouldn't make it as a sparky down here.


Griz, I've never heard that used as a technical term. Saying its dirty power sounded like a snake oil to me that's all. 

Having a neutral and ground coming in contact is what I would refer to as a grounding problem. Ground potential issues are ones I deal with nearly every week of my life. I'm sure you know the problems associated with grounding in controls and how electronics react when there are ground loops.

Years of troubleshooting electronics have proved to me that it is rarely the supplied power that is the problem. If 6string takes his equipment elsewhere and finds it works just great then I'm going to eat crow on your behalf.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

480sparky said:


> That's why I suggested going to a friends house and trying it there. That would eliminate the power supply.


I would have to agree. I dont know much about all this music lingo nor do i know anything about harmonics and such but the problem could be as simple as a bad transformer on the pole. Even if the OP doesnt want to move all of his equipment then try using a generator with inverter technology and see if that takes care of the "dirty power" . It could still be the guitar itself too, strange things can happen with a power outage when it comes to power surges or brown outs.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Griz, I've never heard that used as a technical term. Saying its dirty power sounded like a snake oil to me that's all.
> 
> Having a neutral and ground coming in contact is what I would refer to as a grounding problem. Ground potential issues are ones I deal with nearly every week of my life. I'm sure you know the problems associated with grounding in controls and how electronics react when there are ground loops.
> 
> Years of troubleshooting electronics have proved to me that it is rarely the supplied power that is the problem. If 6string takes his equipment elsewhere and finds it works just great then I'm going to eat crow on your behalf.


Well it is a technical term down here. I heard it first from the computer geeks. But remember I'm in California. I thought I was being fished the first time I heard it too. The dirty power I've dealt with wreaks havoc mostly with computers. I didn't understand any of the guitar lingo and I threw this idea out as that just an idea. I'll give you a pass on eating crow. It doesn't go down real well. Cheers, Griz.


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## Ayerzee (Jan 4, 2009)

Is "dirty power" the same as non linear load? I thought that's what my teacher mentioned when he was talking about electronics and ballasts on fluorescent lights.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> You think 'Dirty Power' is a made-up term that means there's dirt falling out of your outlets?


Gollee, Sargent, you didn't have to go through all that!

In one of my 47 previous lives, I serviced electronic wheel balancers. Had one that randomly gave bogus readings, and you just couldn't reliably duplicate the problem. Finally turned out that there was an employee time clock on the same circuit, and if it just happened to go ka-CHUNK! at the right millisecond...

Then there was the corporate HQ word processing center full of totally squirrelly PCs and printers. 40 yards from a local radio station's antenna tower.

And the steel mill office in which all the computers rebooted every time a fax came in (well, that wasn't really dirty. Just pulled down to 37V every time the fax's laser printer fired up.).

I could go on... :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Gollee, Sargent, you didn't have to go through all that!.............


Inner10 wanted an explanation. I gave one.

Sargent?!?!


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Sargent?!?!


:laughing:

Jus' playing Gomer. :jester:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Jus' playing Gomer. :jester:










Pyle!​


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

:clap::laughing::clap:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> :clap::laughing::clap:



And two-thirds of the forum is wondering, "WTF are they talking about?!?!"

Shazam!


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Well, half anyway. 

Night, Sarge. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Well, half anyway.
> 
> Night, Sarge. :thumbsup:


Reveille at 0430!


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

6tring said:


> WOW!! When did masonry become non trade labor?? Go tell it to the boys in local 8 Milwaukee Wi.
> 
> Thank you


I didnd see mason just reg user and 2 posts when i wrote it it may be my tired ole eyes......lol


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