# H/O Hiring Unlicensed on My Project



## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

I have been involved in a 2800 sf new residential construction project since April of '07. Custom house, modern. Worst architect I have ever worked with, and of course, he is friends with the husband H/O.

We're over the intiial budget by $350,000, the plan was so vague and impossible to bid that I insisted that it be a cost plus contract. No problem, got that, and have been keeping the H/O informed all along as to the cost of things, keeping good records and we frequently review the estimated maximum cost to completion, based on what info I can get from the architect, which is inconsistent.

For months, I have been haranguing the architect for a drawn detail of how he proposes to sleeper Ipe decking over waterproofed balcony and roof decks. A concern to me as there is only enough vertical space for 3/4" sleepers, not enough to hold down Ipe. All previous ridiculous suggestions by this architect have been rejected by me.

I finally told him to either give me the drawings, or admit that he can't figure it out and inform the H/O that he designed himself into a corner and I refuse to build him out of it with a weak detail. 

The architect brought "Juan" to the weekly meeting today. Juan has apparently, without questions or complaints, done Ipe decks somewhere in the past under the same conditions and there have been no problems.

Juan is now giving the H/O estimates for ALL the decks on the project, not just the waterproofed balcony decks, but three exterior decks as well.
I have informed the homeowner that Juan has no insurance, no bond, no WC and no general liability. They are just fine with that. "We need to save as much oney as we can now".

I haven't said anything yet, but I think I am going to inform the H/O that I have to go to the city, cancel the permit which lists me as the Priamary Contractor of Record and let them pull an owner builder. And get the hell off what will be an illegal job site.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Sounds like the right move for you to make. You don't need the problems that will arise on your permit or company name. After you pull your permit, inform the state/township that there is an unlicensed person doing work on the house.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Tough situation. So you're gonna quit milking the cow because she broke out of the pasture? :jester:

Yeah, you can't let him work under your permit, but it sounds like you're going to miss out on a few pounds of butter. No other way to separate his work from yours? Or is it just that you're burned about losing the deck work?


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

Tinstaafl said:


> Tough situation. So you're gonna quit milking the cow because she broke out of the pasture? :jester:
> 
> Yeah, you can't let him work under your permit, but it sounds like you're going to miss out on a few pounds of butter. No other way to separate his work from yours? Or is it just that you're burned about losing the deck work?


Honestly, some of both. I'm going to approach this carefully with the H/O. tell them I have to revoke the permit to keep the liability off of me, but will be happy to work as their employee along with "Juan" to complete the remainder of the job.
But I don't relish the thought of working next to unlicensed "subs". And I know damn well the H/O will expect me to operate in the same supervisory capacity as I have been.
What I really want to do is revoke, leave the project, and report the illegal activity. I only have another 4 or 5 weeks of work left. 
BUT, I don't like to have any bad blood with any of my clients if I can avoid it.
Rock and a hard place, but I will sacrifice a few bucks rather than support illegal unlicensed hacks in any manner. 
JEEZ! I wish these illegals would get the hell off of the landscape.


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## RizzoMaryland (Feb 12, 2007)

If there is no drawing for the decks then they can't be approved and permitted under your building permit. Here in Maryland the structural integrity of the deck has to be approved in drawing before it can be permitted. True there? 

Have Juan pull separate permits for the decks. In the meantime, write up some kind of release of liability for all deck work and have homeowner sign it.

(Then make them pay down the road for supporting illegally run businesses)


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Is there any concrete that still needs to be poured, sure would suck if Juan has a little accident.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Geez.... what the hell!

Did I get this right that you are acting as sort of project manager for the homeowner in managing the subs? I think if that's the case and you can work out doing what you said in regard to all the liabilty and permit issues and working for the homeowner as employee, you should be able to work in there that you can't oversee illegals who are subs either. That doesn't seem too hard for them to understand.

There has to be a way to get ICE involved isn't there? Preferrably right in the middle of Juan's deck building so you can then submit a nice change order which includes all the extra cost of ripping out Juan's work he did before he got deported?


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

RizzoMaryland said:


> If there is no drawing for the decks then they can't be approved and permitted under your building permit. Here in Maryland the structural integrity of the deck has to be approved in drawing before it can be permitted. True there?
> 
> Have Juan pull separate permits for the decks. In the meantime, write up some kind of release of liability for all deck work and have homeowner sign it.
> 
> (Then make them pay down the road for supporting illegally run businesses)


These are balcony decks that have been framed and sheeted, drains installed, and then covered with Dex-O-Tex. They are sloped to the center, so that the rainwater runs to the drain. 

But, being that the sloped surface isn't great to walk on or look at, there needs to be a top finish deck, like tiles, of Ipe. Sort of how they do the cockpit of a boat.

Problem is, as we know, Ipe needs to be set down well or it will arch and cup and move. A 3/4" sleeper underneath, with no attachement to the deck below so it won't penetrate, is not going to get it.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> Geez.... what the hell!
> 
> Did I get this right that you are acting as sort of project manager for the homeowner in managing the subs? I think if that's the case and you can work out doing what you said in regard to all the liabilty and permit issues and working for the homeowner as employee, you should be able to work in there that you can't oversee illegals who are subs either. That doesn't seem too hard for them to understand.
> 
> There has to be a way to get ICE involved isn't there? Preferrably right in the middle of Juan's deck building so you can then submit a nice change order which includes all the extra cost of ripping out Juan's work he did before he got deported?


I'm the general contractor on the job. I pulled the permit, up to now, I hire, schedule and pay all the subs, and supervise the work I'm there for all inspections, I issue all the RFI's to the architect and manage the responses and see to it that all the changes are implemented and all plans are updated. Doing business as a GC. 

This deck issue came up some months ago, I even posted on CT looking for advice on the sleeper detail, got some, but still had some trepidations about that Ipe lighting up and costing me thousands.
I told the architect that anytime in the past I had put a deck over a surface like this, I had lots of room for framing, like a heavy pallet. In some cases, I had installed steel angles to the plywood prior to the Dex-O-Tex so I would be able to lock the framing down.

This architect dodged the issue for months, I informed the thye archy and the client many times that I needed drawn details and that the architect should take some responsibility for only leaving 3/4" for furring. A point, by the way, that I had protested many times in writing and was ignored.
So at least I have that on record.

Now this archy has himself designed into a corner, and his fix is to blame me, inferring that I am "intimidated" by this, he shouldn't have to draw every little thing where every piece of wood and nail goes, and the archy brought the unlicensed guy to the site because "Juan" knows how to do this. No drawing required. The archy informed the clients, I was told, that this predicament could have been avoided had I told him sooner I was "stumped".

And I like your idea of waiting until ol' Juan is well into the job and getting EVERYBODY involved. I called the city this afternoon, spoke to a code enforcement guy, and he told me that I should immediately revoke the permit, tell the H/O to go down and pull an owner/builder permit. Otherwise, day one with Juan's band of boys, I am liable. First in line too, even thought the H/O can get stung too, I'm up first.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

It seems to me you're making this a bigger deal than it is. 

Provide the client a letter (copy his architect) that you will separate your work from the deck work. They can deal with all the decks independently. Disavow any responsibility or liability for that work. Tell the owner to wait until your work is done then hire the other guy. Explain that you cannot accept the liability of having an unlicensed and uninsured contractor on your site but once you're done, he's free. 

Call for finals on all your work but not a certificate of occupancy. Explain to the inspector what's going on. Get your work passed, get paid, then let the HO figure out how to permit the decks so he can finish up the job and get a CO.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

thom said:


> It seems to me you're making this a bigger deal than it is.
> 
> Provide the client a letter (copy his architect) that you will separate your work from the deck work. They can deal with all the decks independently. Disavow any responsibility or liability for that work. Tell the owner to wait until your work is done then hire the other guy. Explain that you cannot accept the liability of having an unlicensed and uninsured contractor on your site but once you're done, he's free.
> 
> Call for finals on all your work but not a certificate of occupancy. Explain to the inspector what's going on. Get your work passed, get paid, then let the HO figure out how to permit the decks so he can finish up the job and get a CO.


 Sound advice, and I wish I could make it go that direction. The decks are already permitted, the rough framing under the Dex-O-Tex was inspected before it was all covered with that surface.

Part of the problem where the decks are concerned is that they have to have the finish on them to be considered to code due to the slope to the drain. The H/O's want to get into the house soon. If all safety issues are met, they can move in prior to getting the C of O. These decks would be one of those issues, so the work has to proceed pretty quick, at the same time all the rest of the finish details are being accomplished at the site.
I'm going to give it a day or two to percolate. Ol' Juan is going to need that much time to get his quote together.
Also think maybe I'll give my lawyer a call, see what he thinks about this.

Thanks for the advice Thom. I might be able to get it going that way. I might be making a bit more out of this than it is, but it came out of left field this morning, and I could not get the H/O to understand on the liability thing. They said they would write a letter that exonerated me from liability. 
I don't think that's possible, and besides, there are State Contracting Licensing Board issues as well regarding licensed GC's hiring unlicensed subs, or having them at the site, regardless of who is paying them.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Bodger said:


> ................
> This deck issue came up some months ago, I even posted on CT looking for advice on the sleeper detail, got some, but still had some trepidations about that Ipe lighting up and costing me thousands.
> I told the architect that anytime in the past I had put a deck over a surface like this, I had lots of room for framing, like a heavy pallet. In some cases, I had installed steel angles to the plywood prior to the Dex-O-Tex so I would be able to lock the framing down.
> 
> ...


That was your first thread right?
Somehow it sounded like this was 
where it would end.
He picked up a pencil and drew
you both into a corner.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

Leo G said:


> Sounds like the right move for you to make. You don't need the problems that will arise on your permit or company name. After you pull your permit, inform the state/township that there is an unlicensed person doing work on the house.


 Yeah, the more I think about it, the more the anger and frustration subside and I want to do the right thing. Look out for the H/O, and myself, get the owners to understand that the root of the problem is the archy to begin with. He'd rather bring an unlicensed guy to the site than risk submitting drawings and being responsible if the detail failed. I think he knows he has experimented here and his assumption about Ipe was incorrect.

In any case, ICE, CA State Licensing Board will be notified. Looking out for the homeowner and trying to protect them from themsleves is one thing. Standing aside for an illegal contractor is another.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

neolitic said:


> That was your first thread right?
> Somehow it sounded like this was
> where it would end.
> He picked up a pencil and drew
> you both into a corner.


 Yes Neo, I had posted about this a while back. Pictures as well, got some fair amount of traction and replies and good advice once I was able to get across what the damn thing was.
The boat cockpit similarity was what sort of broke it loose and I thought I might have had a handle on it. 
It still seemd flimsy to me, so I requested actual detailed stamped drawings from the archy. Never got them. 
The archy apparently thinks an unlicensed contractor is the way to go instead of putting his name on anything that could fail.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Bodger said:


> ........
> It still seemd flimsy to me, so I requested actual detailed stamped drawings from the archy. Never got them.
> The archy apparently thinks an unlicensed contractor is the way to go instead of putting his name on anything that could fail.


Yeah, got that.
It is obviously his tacit admission
that he hasn't a clue how to
actually do it.
Can't remember, did we discard
the possibilities of selling the HO
on composite/synthetics?
At least they will lay down
and stay put.


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## doubleaction (Oct 22, 2005)

All i can say it sucks to be you. Good luck!


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

neolitic said:


> Yeah, got that.
> It is obviously his tacit admission
> that he hasn't a clue how to
> actually do it.
> ...


 Funny you mention that, when these decks were first framed by the framing crew (I didn't frame this one myself), I noticed how little depth there was in front of the thresholds and took another look at the plan to be sure that was right.
Brought it to the archy's attention, and was told that the decks would probably be finished with 1 X Trex, and that he had a source for some special sleepers.

Then he went and sold the H/O on Ipe, and laid the whole mess at my doorstep. All the while referring me to the Ipe web sites, and various hidden fasteners, etc. All of which was a joke and I told him so. 

I have built about five Ipe decks, used Eb-Tys, and I know the joys of the Bow-Wrench and the waxed ends and all the differnt ways Ipe tries to escape the wiles of the tradesman. 
Not to mention the insidious sawdust that sh!t emits.

This is a classic case of the archy dodging responsibility. I tried like hell, even on my own, to figure out how to make this work. 
Screw it, I can only look out for the H/O so much, then I have to protect myself. Maybe the archy would like to run the job from here on out.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Bodger said:


> ............Screw it, I can only look out for the H/O so much, then I have to protect myself. *Maybe the archy would like to run the job from here on out.*


Now *that* would be worth
the price of admission! :clap::laughing:


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

doubleaction said:


> All i can say it sucks to be you. Good luck!


Thanks, I needed that:laughing:

Still, it's been a moneymaker, partly due to the archy adding on some Cadillac extras and running up the estimated maximum price with delays and high-end fixtures and all that stuff And hell, it's been time and materials from the get-go and I'm all paid up.

When I was getting the job, I saw the bid set of drawings, met the archy, and I passed on the job. Looked to complicated, too modern, too much steel and moment frames, I just didn't like the plan or the architect. Sixth sense this guy was a contractor buster. 

I got a call back a few weeks later and the clients were very sold on me, for whatever reason. They had talked to a number of conmtractors and just didn't get the good feeling. I told them I would do it, but I had trepidations about the archy, would be cost-plus with an ironclad contract.

Not bad, except for the archy, up to now.

I just don't like a job to go sour for any reason. Not what I like to see happen, somehow it seems like it can always come back on you even if you try to do the right thing.


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## mrghm (Nov 19, 2006)

tell the home owner that you will complete all other works inclduing the standard decks, get a completion certifacte from the local authority.

then the HO can get jusan or who ever he is to come and to it once they have moved in.

same way ho get blinds etc installed.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Bodger said:


> ...........Thanks to Neo for the "tacit admission" line I used.


:thumbsup:
Glad you did what you had to do.
Bet you'll get a call when things
go "south", so to speak. :whistling


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

HI Bodger, I am here in Orange County am a licensed general in CA. Let me know if there is anything I can for you in this situation (letting the city know about the jacklegs)? I sure would like to know who the archy is for this job, I doubt I know him or would run into him but you never know.

Andy.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

its a hard call but you made the right one. i hope a nice job comes your way to make the karma from this balance out. i see way too much crooked stuff going on in the world, so its good to see some one honest.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

chris klee said:


> its a hard call but you made the right one. i hope a nice job comes your way to make the karma from this balance out. i see way too much crooked stuff going on in the world, so its good to see some one honest.


Thanks Chris.



ScipioAfricanus said:


> HI Bodger, I am here in Orange County am a licensed general in CA. Let me know if there is anything I can for you in this situation (letting the city know about the jacklegs)? I sure would like to know who the archy is for this job, I doubt I know him or would run into him but you never know.
> 
> Andy.


I'll PM you on it. He's West LA, but like you said, you never know.

I'm going to get and keep as much info on the jackleg as I can, and see if I can at some point in the future call him out and ask for an estimate on something and get him to give me a quote in writing that exceeds $500 and then turn him in to the state and demand he be arrested for contracting without a license. 
Maybe make some noise about media coverage if the CSLB ignores the report.

This isn't going to be the end of it. I don't really want to cause any problems for the H/O's, I'm hoping Juan's sub-standard work may well turn out to be their punishment and lesson. And I don't want it getting around that I was vindictive with them over the situation. Bad for future business, and these H/O's know other clients of mine.

I'm also going to look into possibly filing a complaint against the architect. Probably a waste of time, no paper trail and who needs a formal inquest, but I'm looking into it.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

This door closing will open a new one for you.
I love the way you value your integrity and continue to care for the clients you have come to like and respect.
My hat is off to you, Bodger. You are a good man. We need more like you.


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## Deadhead Derek (Dec 3, 2008)

hey Bodger, what is the address at the job.... I have some time, and even though I'm not Lic in CA, I thought I might stop by and see if they need any...

You did the right thing. Integrity is something you cannot put a price on.


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## mrghm (Nov 19, 2006)

get this guy jusan to do a sample say 3ftx3ft.

then he can hang him self.

when he works out he can not do it for his price, also treated him like one of your subs ask for insuarance etc.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

Gus Dering said:


> This door closing will open a new one for you.
> I love the way you value your integrity and continue to care for the clients you have come to like and respect.
> My hat is off to you, Bodger. You are a good man. We need more like you.


Thanks Gus! I appreciate the good thoughts and kind words. 



dirt diggler said:


> as if it hasn't been said ... Bodger - yeah, you get a Dirt Diggler thumbs up :thumbsup:


Thanks Dirt! 
This ain't over 'til it's over. I'm hard to kill and like to think I can be a wily sumbitch when I need to be. 

Doing the right thing is good. Putting things right is another matter. 
I intend to go through the proper legal channels and put this Juan out of business and maybe out of the country. 
"Beautiful work Juan, would you give me a written estimate for a deck at another job of mine? Be sure to put ALL your info on the paperwork, including your address and fake contractor's license number if you use one!"

No sense making it hard for the ICE and CSLB to find him.


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Bodger, be careful about going back on site. The HO already asked if you would 'oversee' Juan to make sure he is doing it correctly. If you step foot on the site while Juan is still under contract, even at the request of the HO, you may be opening yourself up to some problems. Without a request from the HO, a visit to the sight could be held against you if something is found to be wrong later. HO could say as a professional you had an obligation to inform them of something you may have noticed while on site. You don't want to be held liable for 'defacto supervision', no matter what your reasons for the visit were. If the HO initiates a lawsuit down the road, he is going to drag everyone involved into court. Right now, you are in good shape from that perspective. Careful here.

Do GC's, or any of us, have a LEGAL obligation to report something we see as unsafe, not to code, etc? Is there some quirk in the law that an HO could use to say you had an obligation to do something to mitigate an action that caused them harm or damage? I don't know and wouldn't want to find out the hard way. One of the most dangerous animals out there is an HO who is running out of money, has a crappy or unfinished project, and is looking for a deep pocket scapegoat. 

bwally said:

You and two other legal workers are now out of work because of an unlicensed contractor using illegals, if you don't drop a dime on them you are practically condoning what they are doing.

I agree with dropping the dime, but you guys are not out of work because of an unlicensed contractor using illegals. You are out of work because the HO chose to us them. He could have easily used a licensed contractor that undercut you with a price and a promise. Not condoning the illegals, but the HO made this call and you got the shaft because you made a principled decision. 

It is easy to say that we all would do the same thing as you, Bodger, but who knows. Tough call but the right one. I expect that some short time in the future, you will be called back to 'fix' a small problem with the work Juan did. If it were me, the correct fix would be to redo the whole thing since it wasn't designed properly in the first place. You may get your money yet, AND on your own terms. :thumbup:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Mike(VA) said:


> Bodger, be careful about going back on site. The HO already asked if you would 'oversee' Juan to make sure he is doing it correctly. If you step foot on the site while Juan is still under contract, even at the request of the HO, you may be opening yourself up to some problems. Without a request from the HO, a visit to the sight could be held against you if something is found to be wrong later. HO could say as a professional you had an obligation to inform them of something you may have noticed while on site. You don't want to be held liable for 'defacto supervision', no matter what your reasons for the visit were. If the HO initiates a lawsuit down the road, he is going to drag everyone involved into court. Right now, you are in good shape from that perspective. Careful here.
> 
> Do GC's, or any of us, have a LEGAL obligation to report something we see as unsafe, not to code, etc? Is there some quirk in the law that an HO could use to say you had an obligation to do something to mitigate an action that caused them harm or damage? I don't know and wouldn't want to find out the hard way. One of the most dangerous animals out there is an HO who is running out of money, has a crappy or unfinished project, and is looking for a deep pocket scapegoat.


Very good advice, once you pull off the job, do not go back until after Juan and any other unlicensed contractors are done, or better yet, wait until Juan screws it up, then you can come back and fix it for the homeowner.

If they get burned by this hack and the HO calls you back, I am sure they won't try pulling that crap again and you should be able to charge them a premium price for fixing Juans mistakes, I would also charge them a remobilization fee.

I had a situation where I allowed the HO to bring in 1 of their own subs, next thing I know the job is being over run by their unlicensed subs, I eventually got out and never went back, funny thing is they ended up spending more money with these hacks and got an inferior job.

They bought what was sold to them as rectified porcelain tile, it had some issues but could have been set properly, the unlicensed tile contractor charged them labor and they had to buy the material, the tile had to be mudset and the guy didn't shoot any grades to find the high spot on the sub floor and start from there, I could see it, but he started in a corner that happened to be the low spot, once he started he was running uphill, it ended up having a lot of lippage, the lippage was so bad that you would trip on some spots if not careful and it looked like a roller coaster, he charged them more for labor only than my people charge me for labor and setting materials.

Their tile contractor staged a bunch of their material on the back porch, it was a wood porch attacked to a stemwall, it was just attached with cut nails, and was about 20 years old, with being overloaded with tile it came off the wall, the HO expected me to fix it, when it was their sub that damaged it, and I even showed them where it wasn't properly attached to the stemwall, but they said since I was the GC, it was my responsibility, I gave them a price to fix it, but they refused to pay it, when the inspector came out they told him I broke it, he supposedly told them I was responsible for it.

I told the HO if the inspector and his boss wanted to meet me out at the job along with the unlicensed contractors we would discuss it and if the inspector and his boss still agreed I should fix it for free AFTER our jobsite meeting, I would fix it that day, and not just by shooting cut nails into the stemwall, but I would do it correctly per current building code, they never set up the meeting or agreed to having that meeting, so they brought in another hack after I left the job to do the deck, a friend of mine lives across the canal from this job and I could tell from across the canal they guy didn't know what he was doing, it looked like a roller coaster, I don't think the guy used a level, it looked like he measured off of the pool deck to set the height.

My Painter gave me a price and zi quoted the HO, they didn't like it and brought in a crew, they ended up paying them before the job was finished and after they screwed it up, they bailed on the job, then they brought in painter number 2, again this guy didn't know what he was doing, got his money and left before the job was completed, then they bring in painter number three, again he didn't know what he was doing, but he did make the situation somewhat better but he left with the job not being done properly, I ended up getting the prep work done for them so they could bring in a fourth painter, I also ended up babysitting the guy making him do the job right.

At the end of the job they paid about double, plus the materials they were buying for these unlicensed paint contractors, I ended up also losing money and time on the job because of their hacks.

Now if a client wants to bring in an unlicensed contractor I will not allow it , they can bring in all of their unlicensed hacks or their own subs after I leave.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

Good points, definitely, BWalley and VA Mike. I read every word.
I spoke with the H/O last night, I need to get in there and tool out. I've got a fair amount of gear down there in a Mobil Mini storage unit and in two steel lockers. Plus some scaffolding and ladders. 

I had not thought about the fact that being on the job site at all after I revoked the permit could still put me in jeopardy.

I'm going to get my tools and get the hell out. Damned if this jackleg and his banditos are going to get my work AND my gear too!
It will take a few hours, but I don't need to go into the house at all.

It will be tempting as hell to go and see what this guy is doing on those balcony decks, but I'll leave it alone and hope he screws the pooch and I'll get called back to fix it. 

I feel like I'm being evicted from my house or something.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Bodger said:


> Good points, definitely, BWalley and VA Mike. I read every word.
> I spoke with the H/O last night, I need to get in there and tool out. I've got a fair amount of gear down there in a Mobil Mini storage unit and in two steel lockers. Plus some scaffolding and ladders.
> 
> I had not thought about the fact that being on the job site at all after I revoked the permit could still put me in jeopardy.
> ...


Get your scaffolding, ladders, saws etc. out of there *immediately*, otherwise Juan or someone else may use them and when he cuts his fingers off with YOUR saw or falls off of YOUR ladder or YOUR scaffold, it will be YOUR ASS that is sued.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

How come you aren't going after the HO for breaching contract by hiring un licensed jerk off? You had a signed contract to complete the decks? You did the framing and passed inspection? Just curious as to why you wouldn't fight the jack leg hackola and the HO.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

kevjob said:


> How come you aren't going after the HO for breaching contract by hiring un licensed jerk off? You had a signed contract to complete the decks? You did the framing and passed inspection? Just curious as to why you wouldn't fight the jack leg hackola and the HO.


It was all T&M, remember?
Kind of complicates things.


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## inthegutter (Dec 9, 2008)

*Happens in NJ all the time*

We have our share of these A**holes here too. Run far and run fast or you'll be sued when "Juan's" decks fail or kill someone.:furious:


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

:thumbup:Good call Bodger.:thumbup: My hat's off to you.


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Hey, Bodger, I expect you went to the site to retrieve your stuff. We're all waiting for your return to let us know how it went. You didn't have to pry their cold dead fingers off your scaffs, did you? :laughing:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Mike(VA) said:


> Hey, Bodger, I expect you went to the site to retrieve your stuff. We're all waiting for your return to let us know how it went. You didn't have to pry their cold dead fingers off your scaffs, did you? :laughing:


Bodger thinks it's only 
3 in the afternoon. :laughing:


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

kevjob said:


> How come you aren't going after the HO for breaching contract by hiring un licensed jerk off? You had a signed contract to complete the decks? You did the framing and passed inspection? Just curious as to why you wouldn't fight the jack leg hackola and the HO.





neolitic said:


> It was all T&M, remember?
> Kind of complicates things.


T & M it was. And even if I had an ironclad clause in my T & M contract regarding unlicensed subs hired by the H/O, (which I will from now on), I'm trying to avoid a head-on confrontation, legal or otherwise, with the clients. 
Believe me, all manner of outrage and legal (well, mostly) acts of retribution have run through my mind. I'm not out so much money as to change my life, and it's not worth it to muddy the waters with any other clients, past or future, that these people may know. 

The jakeleg, however is another story. He's in my crosshairs now. I'm going to wait and see if he and the H/O have any problems and I'm needed to complete the work. I'm not necessarily lookin to get him busted while he's on this particular job. But I fully intend to set him up, get a proposal in writing, and turn him in and make one hell of a stink if he continues to work without a license. 
These guys confidently go about their illegal business with near impunity.
They should know that when they take work from a licensed guy, they can only burn him one tree at a time. 
We can take their whole forests from them.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

Mike(VA) said:


> Hey, Bodger, I expect you went to the site to retrieve your stuff. We're all waiting for your return to let us know how it went. You didn't have to pry their cold dead fingers off your scaffs, did you? :laughing:


I've got my scaffs, sawhorses orange traffic cones, ladders and steel lockers out of there. 
The Mobil Mini is legally parked on the street, off the job site property, with an LA City permit. I still have to get my gear out of that.

A humourous side note to this is that I got a call today from Roy, the tile and stone contractor today and told him what had happened with the job.

He hated the architect worse than anyone, and nearly came to fisticuffs with him once. Roy suggested gathering up all the subs who worked on the project and creating a class action suit against the architect for lost time due to withheld details and information, nit-picking on shop drawings, and insisting that work be included for items not clearly depicted on the plans.


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## A Smarter Home (Jan 16, 2009)

Make sure the H/O is completely aware that they are legally entitled NOT to pay for Juan's services even after he finishes. There is absolutely NO recourse Juan can legally take against the HO. You could bring this up to them as... "You know Mr. Mrs. HO you might want to have me or another licensed contractor inspect Juan's work after they are finished before you pay them. I believe you have been pleased with my work as a licensed professional and I wouldn't like to see you get screwed by Juan. If there is any corrections that need to be done, you can use the funds that you appropriated for Juan to fix the problems."

Here in CA you can knowingly hire an unlicensed contractor, have them finish your project and willingly just not pay them. There is no legal recourse the unlicensed contractor can do. Matter of fact, we should all hire unlicensed contractors to do projects on our own houses and then not pay them. That'll run them out of business real quick!


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

If that's true, it sounds like a great idea! Though I wouldn't want them knowing where I lived after that.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

Greg Di said:


> I'm not reading 5 pages of this, but you might want to try Bison deck supports and their square Ipe decking tiles. They can be installed to level out a pitch and they have a variety of very low clearance supports that don't add much to the height. The Ipe tiles interlock and are pretty bombproof. It's used a lot in NYC on rooftops and balconies.


LOL Five pages, I don't blame you, this thread struck a nerve and the replies have been many. And much appreciated good advice and humor is contained therein.

I'm not familiar with the Bison system, but there was another similar interlocking Ipe deck system that I looked into and obtained a sample of. 
Minimum height requirement was 1 1/8" if I recall. And as Neo reiterated, I have as low as 3/4" in some areas.
The client also didn't like the 2 foot lengths and butt joints on the tile system.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

> Here in CA you can knowingly hire an unlicensed contractor, have them finish your project and willingly just not pay them. There is no legal recourse the unlicensed contractor can do. Matter of fact, we should all hire unlicensed contractors to do projects on our own houses and then not pay them. That'll run them out of business real quick!


Not exactly true. The CSLB will not do anything in the matter of course but Juan can still bring suit in small claims and he will probably get it.

I was recently talking to a contractor (not working in the trade but keeps the license active) who is a professional arbiter for disputes in construction matters and he says that although this is technically true it just doesn't work that way in the real world.

Andy.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

I found this on the internet regarding the subject of not paying unlicensed hacks in CA: http://www.icandocs.org/icanweb/Factsheets/sc_contractor.pdf

I am forwarding it to the H/O involved in this.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Bodger said:


> I found this on the internet regarding the subject of not paying unlicensed hacks in CA: http://www.icandocs.org/icanweb/Factsheets/sc_contractor.pdf
> 
> I am forwarding it to the H/O involved in this.


Man, I'd lay low for a bit.
You've been cool, stay cool. :thumbsup:

This,
http://www.icandocs.org/icanweb/Fact...contractor.pdf
seems almost as slimy as the
architect and Juan.
Just my thoughts.


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

I have to agree with our famous Curmudgeon on this. Lay low, be the pro & move on. As for 1 or 2 calls to ICE & the licensure board, yes you should call. Beyond that - you need to start moving forward again so you don't get stuck

Just my .02


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## Deadhead Derek (Dec 3, 2008)

what Neo said. it is hard to walk away, I understand that better than I ever wanted to in my profeesional career, but again, as Neo intimated, let the dust settle, you will be needed for the fixes later.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

neolitic said:


> Man, I'd lay low for a bit.
> You've been cool, stay cool. :thumbsup:
> 
> This,
> ...





SLSTech said:


> I have to agree with our famous Curmudgeon on this. Lay low, be the pro & move on. As for 1 or 2 calls to ICE & the licensure board, yes you should call. Beyond that - you need to start moving forward again so you don't get stuck
> 
> Just my .02





Deadhead Derek said:


> what Neo said. it is hard to walk away, I understand that better than I ever wanted to in my profeesional career, but again, as Neo intimated, let the dust settle, you will be needed for the fixes later.


I was thinking it would appear to the homeowner that I was looking out for them, but you guys are right.
As it stands, I'm on the high ground by stating my position, following through, leaving it behind. No sense in tipping my hand that I've got any retributional angst brewing towards the hack. If the H/O gets stopped out and in a bind, I'm sure I'll be the one they call to try to clear it up.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Bodger said:


> I was thinking it would appear to the homeowner that I was looking out for them, but you guys are right.
> As it stands, I'm on the high ground by stating my position, following through, leaving it behind. No sense in tipping my hand that I've got any retributional angst brewing towards the hack. If the H/O gets stopped out and in a bind, I'm sure I'll be the one they call to try to clear it up.


:laughing:
It was just your link. :laughing:
Musta screwed it up when I copied it. 

I must say, it does give me the 
warm fuzzies to be in such good
company here!
Guess great minds think alike!

Ours too! :laughing:


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## rsss396375 (Aug 11, 2008)

thom said:


> It seems to me you're making this a bigger deal than it is.
> 
> Provide the client a letter (copy his architect) that you will separate your work from the deck work. They can deal with all the decks independently. Disavow any responsibility or liability for that work. Tell the owner to wait until your work is done then hire the other guy. Explain that you cannot accept the liability of having an unlicensed and uninsured contractor on your site but once you're done, he's free.
> 
> Call for finals on all your work but not a certificate of occupancy. Explain to the inspector what's going on. Get your work passed, get paid, then let the HO figure out how to permit the decks so he can finish up the job and get a CO.


I agree with Thom and what a nice project you have... Since the decks are permited, along with the rest of the house, create that paper trail you spoke, perhaps a Change Order,and seperate yourself from the deck only. You have alot of time and your reputation wrapped up in this project to just walk off for a deck. The next time you get a scheduled inspection, let the inspector know that your company will not be doing the decking. This "Juan" may even have some experience that he can pass on to you, so watch his work. If his work is sub standard and it endangers you or your guys, then I would report that to the inspector, who I assume you have become familiar with all the work you have done. It's not ratting the H/O out, just protecting the indegrity of the trade....and YOU
You may have a credited amount already set aside for the deck. I would tell the H/O that you will credit them back the amount that Juan is charging them, not what it would have cost you to do the job since you have hours built into the design and planning stages.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Bodger said:


> I found this on the internet regarding the subject of not paying unlicensed hacks in CA: http://www.icandocs.org/icanweb/Factsheets/sc_contractor.pdf
> 
> I am forwarding it to the H/O involved in this.


Florida has pretty much the same law, some HO's will knowingly hire unlicensed contractors so they can get free work out of them.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Not exactly true. The CSLB will not do anything in the matter of course but Juan can still bring suit in small claims and he will probably get it.
> 
> I was recently talking to a contractor (not working in the trade but keeps the license active) who is a professional arbiter for disputes in construction matters and he says that although this is technically true it just doesn't work that way in the real world.
> 
> Andy.


The law clearly states that unlicensed contractors have no right to sue.

It is an open and shut case, the unlicensed contractor sues, you go to court with a copy of the statute, ask to see his license, and then ask for triple damages, case closed.

There is no "Technically true", the law is the law.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

rsss396375 said:


> I agree with Thom and what a nice project you have... Since the decks are permited, along with the rest of the house, create that paper trail you spoke, perhaps a Change Order,and seperate yourself from the deck only. You have alot of time and your reputation wrapped up in this project to just walk off for a deck. The next time you get a scheduled inspection, let the inspector know that your company will not be doing the decking. This "Juan" may even have some experience that he can pass on to you, so watch his work. If his work is sub standard and it endangers you or your guys, then I would report that to the inspector, who I assume you have become familiar with all the work you have done. It's not ratting the H/O out, just protecting the indegrity of the trade....and YOU
> You may have a credited amount already set aside for the deck. I would tell the H/O that you will credit them back the amount that Juan is charging them, not what it would have cost you to do the job since you have hours built into the design and planning stages.


 Unfortunately, in Los Angeles, the LADBS could not care less about licensing issues, or who is doing the work. As long as the proper permits are in place, and whoever pulled tham has shown that they either have WC, or no employees, licensing issues fall to state jurisdiction and in CA, it's virtually unpoliced by the CSLB,
I had a choice, hold my nose and let this Juan come on to my job site with no license and no insurance, thereby assuming a lot of liability for him and his band of jacklegs, or get my name off the project pronto. 

I'll be damned if I'll watch a jackleg work unlicensed and uninsured on my job site to see what I can learn from him. If he had the kind of experience that could teach me anything, he would first be working legally. 

The only thing to be learned from those guys is that they take profit from licensed guys by working illegally. And in LA, a large percentage of them are breaking the law just by being here. They are in the USA illegally to begin with, so they have no right to work anywhere, much less as a contractor.

That's not to infer that I don't appreciate the advice, I do, and thanks.


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## toddovan (Dec 17, 2008)

Bodger , As a new poster on this board I absolutely have a instant respect for you.Times are tough , yet you had the dicipline,good sense and morals to walk away. Bodger, I salute you, Todd:rockon:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

No word on Juan's "progress"?


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Most of the blame falls on the Architect and HO they had you a licensed guy tell them how to do it and the balked at your experience so Mr. Architect decided to cut you out of the loop, I say F-them they get what they deserve.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

toddovan said:


> Bodger , As a new poster on this board I absolutely have a instant respect for you.Times are tough , yet you had the dicipline,good sense and morals to walk away. Bodger, I salute you, Todd:rockon:


 Bodger is my hero too, sometimes in the throws of passion I call my wife Bodger.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

neolitic said:


> No word on Juan's "progress"?


 I haven't heard a thing. Last time I was there was when I tooled out and rolled up my gear. 
I'm going to call the H/O next week, still a few loose ends I need to take care of.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Could you provide pictures of his work? We could make you a poster child of illegal work abuse or something.


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