# Customer never happy keeps holding payment. Please help :(



## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

Hi all. I built a deck for a customer a couple weeks back with a fence going across the front and a gate. I had a contract although it was extremely simple it stated that I was installing a deck with pressure treated frame and decking, the cost, and the payment structure. I am licensed and insured in my state as a contractor (though still new at being on my own). The payment structure was 60% up front due to materials and 40% upon completion. The project was completed a couple weeks ago. She wasn't happy with the gate so I took it down and rebuilt it then asked for my payment. She continued to make minor complaints (literally the paint on a screw chipped off) and I entertained her and took care of all these things. Now its time for payment once again and she claims she is getting moisture in her storage closet. Simply put I don't see how the deck could cause it the joists run with a pitch sloping away from the house and the joists run level across. Also there is an overhang above the closet I just don't see how it could happen. This lady has been so negative, rude, obnoxious, and everything else you can think of from the start. I am at the point I don't want to talk or see her again. How do I go about getting my money? She said she's waiting on another opinion and still isn't happy with the way the gate looks. The payment wasn't contingent on someone else's opinion so I think she's doing something illegal there and the gate is perfectly fine. Every neighbor and person who saw the project besides her have given me plenty of compliments so i have the confidence to call it complete.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Lien her property and be on your way. Or have a lawyer write something up for you to send to her.

Keep sending her invoices, keep track of them and send them by registered mail. If you have a clause in there for interest/penalties then add them in. If you don't put it into your next contract. The school of hard knocks teaches it's lessons well.


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## mako1 (Sep 1, 2013)

Good advice above.If you don't have a legal and binding contract for the scope of the work you don't have shtz.More people are like that than you think.Everything is always good until it comes time to write the check.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

> The payment structure was 60% up front due to materials and 40% upon completion.


I'm in PA too. I would tell her to get you three WRITTEN opinions from local registered contractors by the end of the month or you are going to start court - lien - whatever proceedings. 

In the future - do not leave that much hanging on the end. I leave MAYBE $200 payable upon completion with new customers. You can go with the state regs on down payment and it's all your call on every payment after that.

In 11 years we have only had maybe 2-3 people complain about the small token last payment.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tell her everything she wants you to do is warranty work. And she doesn't get the warranty until she pays for the work performed.


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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

I think I am going to have to go the lawyer route. Other contractors opinions aren't really all that important to me. There was no contingency in the contract about other opinions and it's a small deck barely above grade so no permit was required therefore I can't say I'm out of code. Beyond that the deck was built correct. Beams have a pitch away from the house the joists are level across. The deck is below the brick shelf of the storage closet she's complaining about and even lower from the sliding glass doors to the house.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

tdmopar59 said:


> ..... Other contractors opinions aren't really all that important to me. There was no contingency in the contract about other opinions........


So why did you bother asking?


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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

I'm sorry that came out wrong haha. I meant to amilia saying to have her get written opinions from other contractors about the deck. The opinions on how to handle the situation from other contractors is greatly appreciated


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

tdmopar59 said:


> I'm sorry that came out wrong haha. I meant to amilia saying to have her get written opinions from other contractors about the deck. The opinions on how to handle the situation from other contractors is greatly appreciated


She mentioned that she's from PA as you are and it's very likely she's giving you good advice that is specific to that state.


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

#1 ask for a written list of deficiencies
#2 go over each one onsite.
#3 if they're your fault fix it.
#4 if not your fault, try to fix it
#5 collect payment or send letter of INTENT TO LEIN
(found here in file sharing section

for future work, have a better contract.
not sure why no permit ? how much was the job?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Take as many pictures as possible too. Once other contractors get involved you have make sure everything was documented before they mess with it. I have seen contractors go in and purposely mess with the job.


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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

No permit because the deck isn't 20" above grade. Contract could've definitely been better. I've been back and forth with the "problems" 4 or 5 times already hence the frustration. I can't continue to go back and forth just because she doesn't wanna pay. It cost me money and time and enough is enough. I was going to contact a lawyer tomorrow. Like I mentioned I dont even wanna deal with her any more. She's been nothing but a hassle and has been holding may payment making me dance like a puppet on a string.


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

try the intent to lien letter

that's free , lawyers are not.


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## fourcornerhome (Feb 19, 2008)




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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

jaydee said:


> try the intent to lien letter
> 
> that's free , lawyers are not.


this might be my method. I am going to take action tomorrow. I am giving her the rest of the day to make a payment. I have done a lot of searching through this site as the problem was going on and this is where I stand. A lot of the posts I read regarding the issue said take care of the little crap its much easier than the legal route. However, I went back time and time again, like I said one time the paint on the screw was chipped and I replaced it no questions asked!!! At this point I just feel like whatever I fix shes going to make up her next excuse. I feel like she just simply doesn't want to pay. I never thought it would happen to me and what a great lesson its been to go through but man I wish i didn't have to!


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## Dave in Pa (Oct 10, 2009)

I am not, nor will say much here! BUT take photo's lots of them, AND USE a cell phone, the time is there, date as well! A camera can be messed with, a cell phone photo, will and can be used in court!! 

My wife works, in this type of field! LAWYERS!! 

FYI if ya are involved in a auto accident, do the same! take the other peoples insurance card info, plate #, drivers ID, etc.

The insurance companies just hate it! LOL


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

you should have collected the check right after you fixed the first issue......why do you keep fixing things and not getting paid?

i collect my money when the job is complete with homeowners.....if they have issues i come back and fix them.....i dont fix them without being paid first.....they have no warranty if they dont pay you....so why fix things anymore

lien the house

learn how the lien law works in your state.....

i just had a customer who threatened me back, saying if i lien her house she will trash me on the internet..

dont let someone steal from you...


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I don't think it's a warranty issue until they have paid you because they are satisfied with the product.


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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

Every "issue" she has brought up has been aesthetic. I have been bending over backwards to make her happy but trying to avoid the legal procedure. Now that she is claiming she gets moisture in her storage room she says shes going to get a second opinion but I told her the deck doesn't have anything to do with it since the deck is below the brick shelf and the threshold. The seals on the door could be bad and that isn't related to the deck and its just a little storage closet that hasn't been updated since the house has been built there's a million reasons it could be getting moisture. She always has a complaint and nothing is ever enough and she is gut wrenching to deal with. That's why I was going to get a lawyer or go the legal route. If you put a level near the beam you can see the pitch away from the house. as you move away from the edges it varies a bit due to the crowns all being pointed up (as you would building any structure) so she thinks she has a case against me. It's just the fact that lumber isn't perfect I don't see how she has any case and I've been there enough times with e mails texts and pictures to prove that I did my best to satisfy her but she's just always miserable and wants more.


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

garden hose ???????


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

add this to your contract

60% down, 40% due upon completion (same day)

i get $0 down and insist on full payment upon completion(same day)....ive never had a customer complain about paying me....if they are at work i tell them to leave the check on the kitchen table



get a check in hand as you walk off the jobsite........let her have her issues later...right now your dancing and begging to get your $$


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

AmeliaP said:


> ...by the end of the month or you are going to start court - lien - whatever proceedings.


It's very important to set deadlines like Amelia said and then blast away with your next step.

There is a clock ticking somewhere and with each day, your rights tend to fade depending on your state laws.

This sounds like a total scammer. Do a background check on her. You might find some other complainants who might be of help with a few phone calls.:thumbsup:


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Other than chasing or waiting for my money I've never had an issue getting fully paid in 25 years. I wouldn't be leaving 40% as final payment. I also wouldn't have gone back more than once and would have expected payment right then and there.

Definitely go back and take a bunch of pics and be done screwing around with her.


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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

Thanks for the advice everyone it truly is a great help and this site seems like it will be an amazing resource for my new career path working under my own name. Huggytree you nailed it I feel like im dancing around and begging for compensation its ridiculous. Basically bullying. Avenge your completely right I should never leave such a large lump sum as a final payment. Now I know to include a payment while in progress. Rselectric you are correct about the deadlines and the last invoice she got had a date due yesterday and that was my final straw. For some reason I was waiting through the day and gave her another chance but as you said a clock is ticking somewhere so I have to take action now. I guess it is what it is, I never thought I'd be in this situation I've always had nothing but happy grateful customers and now this crazy nightmare!!


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

Take the gate down and start pulling deck boards. Tell her they are yours since she hasn't paid for them yet.


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

Morning Wood said:


> Take the gate down and start pulling deck boards. Tell her they are yours since she hasn't paid for them yet.


That would be fun if it was legal


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

You can take them off and tell them you will repair them offsite. And then forget that you removed them.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm in Pa. And in Pennsylvania, there is mention about not taking more than a 1/3 up front: Pa Home Improvement Protection Act.

I'm not sure of your total cost for the work and how the Act applies.

I have no clue how to paste the link in here.


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## PoleBarnsNY (Jan 18, 2014)

1. Post a picture of the gate here and you will get plenty of opinions without an agenda. 

2. How much money are you owed? That matters a lot which way most here would go with advice

3. Small claims? fifteen bucks in my state


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Take as many pictures as possible too. Once other contractors get involved you have make sure everything was documented before they mess with it. I have seen contractors go in and purposely mess with the job.


sure you have


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

huggytree said:


> add this to your contract
> 
> 60% down, 40% due upon completion (same day)
> 
> i get $0 down and insist on full payment upon completion(same day)....ive never had a customer complain about paying me....if they are at work i tell them to leave the check on the kitchen table


your last post just said the HO threatened to trash you on the internet if you lien her home..that sounds like a complaint over payment if I ever heard one


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

TDMOPAR

Just punch her in the face..you know you want to..and keep punching til her purse falls out her a$$


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Tame it to small claims if the limit allows. If she doesnt go you get default judgement. It will be very sympathetic with the judge if you have documentation of your good faith efforts to satisfy the client. Take pictures and make the client knows you have them. The threat of having to stand before the ultimate bs sniffer will either make her pay up or give you a day in court.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

tdmopar59 said:


> Hi all. I built a deck for a customer a couple weeks back with a fence going across the front and a gate. I had a contract although it was extremely simple it stated that I was installing a deck with pressure treated frame and decking, the cost, and the payment structure. I am licensed and insured in my state as a contractor (though still new at being on my own). The payment structure was 60% up front due to materials and 40% upon completion. The project was completed a couple weeks ago. She wasn't happy with the gate so I took it down and rebuilt it then asked for my payment. She continued to make minor complaints (literally the paint on a screw chipped off) and I entertained her and took care of all these things. Now its time for payment once again and she claims she is getting moisture in her storage closet. Simply put I don't see how the deck could cause it the joists run with a pitch sloping away from the house and the joists run level across. Also there is an overhang above the closet I just don't see how it could happen. This lady has been so negative, rude, obnoxious, and everything else you can think of from the start. I am at the point I don't want to talk or see her again. How do I go about getting my money? She said she's waiting on another opinion and still isn't happy with the way the gate looks. The payment wasn't contingent on someone else's opinion so I think she's doing something illegal there and the gate is perfectly fine. Every neighbor and person who saw the project besides her have given me plenty of compliments so i have the confidence to call it complete.


My company handles a fairly large number of customers every day and we have a healthy number of problems to deal with every day. My most important goal for every problem is to resolve the problem in the least amount of time and to resolve it with the least amount of loss in dollars, but worrying about the loss of money is always on the bottom of my list because every time we have a problem with a customer we lost many more things that were much more important and the most important is our inability to do business without having problems in the first place. Every time we have a problem with a customer we should learn something that helps reduce our number of problems in the future.

Great rambling so far?

You can't win in this situation by filing liens and making threats. That is only a spitting contest that leads to nowhere.

You are at a point where you are seriously frustrated and you don't think you can resolve the problem. Lawsuits, liens and $2 won't get you a cup of coffee. Go that way, the attorney will get richer and you will dig yourself in deeper because the cost to resolve the issue will be more than the customer owes and you still won't get one penny.

In your case, the best option is to find a person who can speak with your customer and get her to open up and vent all her hatred for you, or whatever her problem is. Get your negotiator to play 'good cop, bad cop'. You are the bad cop who beat the crap our of her. The good cop is the guy who listens and shows compassion. The good cop promises to repair and resolve all her problems, but the good cop also has a loyalty to his partner who needs his money.

In simple terms, find someone else to visit with your customer who knows how to listen and resolve problems. 

As for the moisture, you can get a moisture meter at some carpet cleaning supply houses or online for about $15. They have prongs you stick into the wood, carpets and drywall. You stick the prongs into the building materials in several locations throughout the house and you show the customer the readings. We usually write the locations for each test on a piece of paper and we take a picture of the meter reading and the piece of paper with the location. This is building you evidence that you will never need for your lawsuit, but recording everything shows the customer that you are intelligent, methodical and she realizes that she can't argue the moisture results.

Obviously, if the readings are the same throughout the house then no moisture problem exists. Then, you calmly move onto the next issue. If she doesn't like the gate installation you need to be honest with yourself. If you didn't provide the best service that money can buy then you need to admit to yourself that you are wrong and make corrections so your workmanship cuts the grade (whatever that means).

As a business owner your job is to resolve problems without litigation and in the fastest and most-practical ways. Solving problems is why the bosses get paid the biggest piece of the pie and if you crumble when you have problems you should be working for someone else.

I would love to call your customer, listen to her side and negotiate a resolution because I have the ability to shut my mouth and listen to what the customer is saying. Even when the customer is wrong you need to look through her eyes to get inside her head because in her mind she thinks she is right. When you realize that she is not a stupid crook trying to screw you and you realize that she really thinks she is right then you can pause, ask her what she wants and ask how the problem can be resolved. Allow the customer to give you options and then you have the ability to start your negotiations by explaining why this and that will or will not work. If you refuse to get to this point then threaten her with lawsuits, liens and keep spitting until your mouth runs dry.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

I like what you said for the most part. I think it would be extremely difficult to have someone speak on behalf of your company unless they have some skin in the company game. I don't think I'll let my brother or best friend speak to a customer unless they were my partner. I don't have a partner.

But, what if, even if the chance is slim, what if the customer is a crook trying to get something for nothing?


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

jamestrd said:


> TDMOPAR
> 
> Just punch her in the face..you know you want to..and keep punching til her purse falls out her a$$


What women keeps a purse in her arse? lol


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

> I'm sorry that came out wrong haha. I meant to amilia saying to have her get written opinions from other contractors about the deck. The opinions on how to handle the situation from other contractors is greatly appreciated


I agree. I wouldn't give a crap about their opinions either BUT it puts pressure and a timeline on her to move her *ss or face consequences. I'd be surprised if she got 1 let alone 3. Plus it looks better in court that you entertained another opinion.

Anyway - make sure you document everything.


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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

Yeah I don't think she'd follow through. I had an e mail once that she had a "contractor" ) look at it and that's why I replaced two screws. The moisture in the closet could be a million things. She's impossible to talk sense with she knows everything and just loves to be a b**ch. Would you recommend the letter with intent to Lein or have a lawyer send something or just file a claim in small claims court? She owes me $1200 and I'm done trying to get it the "easy way" I have been bending over backwards entertaining her complaints that make no sense just to try and end it simply.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

She owes you $1,200.
If you keep investing more and more time and materials in this project, you may wish you just walked away.

I know that is a Black & White approach, but don't fail to see the first through the trees.

It may be best to spend as little time as possible trying to recoup the money. See what involved with filing a lien and be done. Move on.

Another option is to try to meet with her to discuss your intentions and maybe come to a settlement: 60/40, 50/50, etc. Save you both trouble.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

For the future try and qualify your customers better, this step can save you a lot of headaches later on.


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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

Thanks again for the further input everybody! At this point I'm going to send a legal notice that she has yet another 5 days to pay before she has a lien and a court date. Hopefully she comes to her senses and pays but if not I am confident that I will receive full compensation via the legal process. I am not going back to that house and spending any more of my time or buying any more materials to try and satisfy her considering it seems impossible.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Hard to qualify bat sh!t crazy until you get to know them.


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## eastend (Jan 24, 2006)

while it is certainly possible that this women's expectations were not met, and it is possible that she is super-picky to the point of being totally unreasonable, it is also possible that she is flat out trying to scam the OP.

Won't be the first time a customer tries to pull something to save money at the end of the job.

If that's the case, then most likely you're screw*d, because you'll never see what's owed you, and at best will have to settle for a % of the $1,200.

Ideally, you should never leave more than 10% due at the end of a project.


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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Hard to qualify bat sh!t crazy until you get to know them.


This is the truth!


Eastend you are correct. I'm working on making a new contract tonight while I organize ye ol office.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

You want Vinnie & Bruno's phone number?

Vinnie likes Vise-Grips. Bruno loves using blow torches.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Giuseppe likes concrete and fishes.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)




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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

haha if only it was as easy as calling moose and rocco. I don't understand why the local police department can't be involved. It's stealing at the end of the day. I gotta deal with all this extra BS because she wants to be as big of a _____ as possible.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

tdmopar59 said:


> ......I don't understand why the local police department can't be involved. It's stealing at the end of the day. ........


They simply will tell you it's a civil matter.


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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

480sparky said:


> They simply will tell you it's a civil matter.


you are absolutely right. I talked to the local police sergeant (it's a small suburb so he's easy to get ahold of). He told me he agrees with me that it is stealing but the law writes it out as a civil matter. He said there has been very few rare occurrences where they have actually been involved in solving these processes.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

ive had several crazy customers lately

one see's white spots inside her toilet....its the light reflecting off the toilet seat...i watch her lift and lower the lid while she kneels in front of the toilet....she doesnt believe its the light still....she also doesnt like that some of the tiles are darker than others.....she picked out a tile pattern that has what looks like a chip/flaw in it....its not a chip/flaw, its just part of the pattern...she put tape on every mark to show the tile guy....she asked why he would install those tiles...like its his fault she picked the pattern

had another that measured the wall sconces and found 1 was 1/8" lower than the other.. 


did a repipe a month ago and had to run a water line up through the floor for the toilet in the powder room...the customer is unable to get over it....they act like they cant move on and accept seeing a pipe come through the floor....i have to go back and open up the wall to run it normally....every time i talk to them its all they can talk about...OCD

people who have ideas that perfection exists will spend hours looking for flaws...like its a game....ill bet that customer of mine spends hours looking inside her toilet still

some people have OCD...they cant move on...their brain wiring wont let them


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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

Huggytree you aren't kidding. If people could have some kind of insight as to how construction works they might have a clue. But perfection doesn't exist.


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## ranteso (Nov 11, 2010)

how did you get this job? referral? ad? etc...


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

tdmopar59 said:


> Thanks again for the further input everybody! At this point I'm going to send a legal notice that she has yet another 5 days to pay before she has a lien and a court date. Hopefully she comes to her senses and pays but if not I am confident that I will receive full compensation via the legal process. I am not going back to that house and spending any more of my time or buying any more materials to try and satisfy her considering it seems impossible.


"THING GREEN!" Send your notice on toilet paper to get the most benefit from your threat!

This may have nothing to do with you and I don't mean to offend you, but your story reminds me of several contractors who worked for my ex-wife for the past three years. We hired several contractors in Sandy Valley Nevada, spent 3 years remodeling a house and spent $400k just for the remodeling. Maybe, I can find some pictures and post them tomorrow.

My ex-wife is a perfectionist and the cost to do a project means absolutely nothing. You have to remember that she wants everything to be the best, perfect and she does not care about the price.

Every single thing we wanted to do at this house had to be done two to three times. Before the kitchen was finished we installed kitchen cabinets two times, installed granite counter tops three times and we tiled this entire 3300 sq ft house's floors, tubs, showers and counter tops two times. We built a chicken coop foundation wall two times at a cost of $4,000 each because the contractor put the first foundation in the wrong location. We had to build a 100 ft x 12 wood overhang two times at a cost of $18,000 each. We had to install the Thermador stove fan two times and the list goes on and on.

We spent $12,000 to have about 160 feet of vinyl fencing installed and I think this was a hefty price, but like I said, "all she wants is perfection.

The reason this thread brings back bad memories is because of the way we had a problem with every contractor to the point where we SHOULD HAVE filed lawsuits against them. We paid $25,000 for the kitchen cabinets (not counting the granite, and as of today (2-1/2 years later) we are still missing a drawer and a door. 

This is what is sick about how contractors talk crap about customers. The cabinets were supposed to be 100% wood and they have a photo finish. A door was cracked on the inside during installation and the contractor said we broke the door (the house is vacant). One kitchen drawer had an entirely different pattern. When I called the contractor he was yelling at me and telling me what a b...ch my ex-wife is and he was paid all his money. Rather than argue I offered to pay $450 for the door. I delivered the door and drawer to his shop 1-1/2 years ago and now he tells me he moved and lost them.

The fence contractor was another freak. There was not one rail nor picket that was plumb. He installed hinges and hardware with different styles and colors. Gates would not self-close not lock and this was a serious issue because my ex-wife has a dog that is more valuable than I ever was. Regardless, we went back and forth and the fence contractor went to the house and tried to fix his problems, but his work was crap for even a person who is not a perfectionist. THE REASON PEOPLE CALL CONTRACTORS IS BECAUSE THEY WANT THE WORK DONE PROFESSIONALLY. Any idiot can do a sloppy job.

Eventually, the fence contractor started to call my ex-wife names (like when I was married to her) and he was very angry AT HER because he didn't have the talent to do work in a good workmanship-like manner. 

I'm not making accusations nor want to insult anyone, again, but, when a contractor is on top of his game from the beginning then things are less-likely to fester.

If the contractor in this thread worked for me and told me his only option is to threaten the customer with a lawsuit, then he won't be working for me, anymore. A business owner should be sharp enough to negotiate through problems just for the sake of keeping lives as stress-free as possible.

Just a few minutes ago, I had a customer threaten me with a lawsuit. We installed some drain pipes and after the job was completed her toilet kept clogging. We went to her hours 4 or 5 times and gave her two brand new toilets for free. Then she called 3 or 4 times because she has an odor coming from the pop-up and overflow holes in her bathroom sink. Now, she still has the odor and her water pipes are vibrating because she has a loose faucet washer.

She was steaming hot on the phone and threatening me. I calmly listened and told her not to worry because I will go to her house every day and do whatever it takes to make her happy. I am going there on Friday and I will install a new faucet for free. I will do this because all the people on this street (in this particular ethnic neighborhood) talk to each other daily. I know for a fact that I will gain 10 times more business by buttering the crap on this customer rather than threatening. I will never be like my ex-wife's contractors and I will never put the blame on the customer because I don't believe that most customers want to screw their contractors. I do believe contractors have a fiduciary duty to look out for and to protect their customers because this is one of the reasons customers contract with customers, in the first place.

So, if after everything I wrote in the last post doesn't make sense and you think that threatening customers with legal action is the best and only way to resolve issues then you are going to travel down a long bumpy road and you won't be doing anything for your reputation as far as being able to successfully resolve problems.

You say you are fed up with the customer and I get feel the same way every day regarding customers, but there is a satisfaction for knowing that you follow through with your jobs to make your customers happy regardless of what happens and there is a satisfaction for knowing that you did went the extra 100 miles, never gave up and you have what it takes to run a business. 

Suppose, I hire you to run my business and you resolve all my customer's problems with threats and you force my company to give up $1200 every time the going gets tough. I would not tolerate that type of thinking and management.

Otherwise, I have to ask the question why you would create a thread and ask the best way to resolve your problem.


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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

Ranteso it was a referral. The neighbor referred me and after seeing me back time and time again she kinda found out what happened and kept apologizing and was was complimenting the deck and fence and gate as have other neighbors. She seems to be the only one with the problem and believe me I want her to be satisfied but she's given me enough reason to think she's dodging payment more than she is "not satisfied"


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

pcplumber said:


> "THING GREEN!" Send your notice on toilet paper to get the most benefit from your threat!
> 
> This may have nothing to do with you and I don't mean to offend you, but your story reminds me of several contractors who worked for my ex-wife for the past three years. We hired several contractors in Sandy Valley Nevada, spent 3 years remodeling a house and spent $400k just for the remodeling. Maybe, I can find some pictures and post them tomorrow.
> 
> ...




I think you may not have as understanding an attitude if you were being stonewalled on payment because there were "solder boogers" on the water lines, or the PVC cleaner was not applied in a completely even ring around the pipe and didn't match the amount of cleaner on the other pipe joints.

I get the gist of what you are trying to get across, but OP's problem is comparable to somebody complaining that the wood grain doesn't look exactly alike on every board, therefore replace them all.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

I once had a customer obviously suffering issues make us fill every little hole in her 100 year old floor.

we left one unfilled where we instaling quarter round..the hole would be covered..she brings it up to me and i say the molding will cover it..

she then told me but what if a bug tried to come up througb it..i told her..if a bug can get through the molding, that filler will only make it angry


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## Quad Racer (Jun 2, 2014)

You left waaaay too much on the table for the final payment and unfortunately for you she knows it. 
She also knows your a green horn and likely to not pose any real threat. 

The first signs a HO is being disrespectful, it gets dealt with right then. 

Do any of you other contractors put up with rude customers, I know I sure as hell don't. There are too many good ones out there.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

TimNJ said:


> I think you may not have as understanding an attitude if you were being stonewalled on payment because there were "solder boogers" on the water lines, or the PVC cleaner was not applied in a completely even ring around the pipe and didn't match the amount of cleaner on the other pipe joints.
> 
> I get the gist of what you are trying to get across, but OP's problem is comparable to somebody complaining that the wood grain doesn't look exactly alike on every board, therefore replace them all.


The question in this thread is regarding how to resolve the problem to get paid and my two posts are about how to negotiate and deal with the customer. Regardless, of the customer's specific complaints I am trying to point out that threatening with lawsuits and liens is not the best nor most-professional option.

I apologize if I appear to be hard. If a person is going to ask a serious question then I hope that person can take some serious constructive criticism and sugar-coating the subject is a senseless waste of time.

Again, back to my ex-wife. I remodeled her kitchen in Los Angeles about 5 years ago. She spent 6 months searching for kitchen cabinets and I was very impressed because most people have anxiety and they want everything done yesterday. I always admired how she shopped for everything because she really knows how to pick quality items and when she does things like a remodel she wants nothing but the best. I had a custom cabinet maker I always use and he wanted $9,000 for the cabinets with the installation. She doesn't like this guy, personally, and she would not take the cabinet if they were the best and free. She ended up paying $22,000 at the Kitchen Warehouse plus $4000 for installation. After the cabinets were installed all the doors were a different color than the cabinets in the showroom and some doors had some horrible black streaks. She made them remove every cabinet and she was right.

Then, the kitchen warehouse installs the cabinets the 2nd time and they had two major problems. They had country-style S-designs in the corners between cabinets and the backing inside the cabinets had grooves that looked exactly like wood paneling. She made them remove every cabinet and they had to install a 3rd set. I'm sure you can imagine how angry the workers were and the names they were calling my wife. The worst thing is when I'm working at her house they think I am only a plumber and they are saying things to the wrong person.

While the contractors can yell and scream all they want at my ex-wife I have to agree with her and she is 100% right. When people are paying for services the contractor has to put every tiny detail in writing and when it comes to wood grains and colors the contractor has to make 100% sure that the customer understands that the project cannot be done two times for the same price.

I am not trying to judge whether or not this contractor did something wrong. The thread asks what the best solution is to resolve the problem and get paid and the answer depends on the contract and every detail starting when the customer requested the bid. I mention my ex-wife's jobs because I am trying to point out that there are customers in this world who REALLY want quality work and when it comes to selling wood products a contractor has to understand what the customer wants and take the precautions to protect himself, but what the contractor thinks is okay for his best interest is not always what the customer wants. If a contractor can look through the customer's eyes and apply the negotiation skills mentioned in my last two posts then he may be is worth his weight in salt (or something like that) as far as meeting the customer's desires, needs, expectations and what the customer is paying their hard-earned money for (unless that person is my ex-wife).


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

huggytree said:


> ive had several crazy customers lately
> 
> one see's white spots inside her toilet....its the light reflecting off the toilet seat...i watch her lift and lower the lid while she kneels in front of the toilet....she doesnt believe its the light still....she also doesnt like that some of the tiles are darker than others.....she picked out a tile pattern that has what looks like a chip/flaw in it....its not a chip/flaw, its just part of the pattern...she put tape on every mark to show the tile guy....she asked why he would install those tiles...like its his fault she picked the pattern
> 
> ...


This reminds me of the time years ago when I was going to do some work for one of my uncles who was moving. I knew I was in trouble when he had his micrometer out measuring the grout lines on the tile! He was a hell of an engineer but not a good client at all.


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## ranteso (Nov 11, 2010)

Most contractors are at fault for a myriad of reasons. Two at the top are pricing the job too low so you can not do a quality job, and failing to communicate and understanding what the customers' expectations are. 

It's your job to feel out your customers expectations and price your job accordingly. Don't just assume and then cry foul when the customer rejects something. Ever detail, every component needs to be explained and discussed. Most people are very reasonable and want things explained to them. They are not looking to beat you up, they just want to know what they are getting for their money.

Granted, remodeling is not easy, there are hundreds of details that can be misinterpreted by the customer, but that's why it's not for everybody. It's not as simple as selling a pair of shoes.


There's only a few reasons why a customer does not pay, 1. they are not satisfied, 2. they ran out of money, 3. they planned from the start to scam you out of your final payment. 

1 and 2 are easy to deal with if you are a good communicator and you set a professional tone from the start. Your customer should always feel comfortable about approaching you with their concerns and it's your job to set that tone from the first meeting. 

as for 3, if you did everything correctly, fulfilled your promise, have a properly executed agreement, then there's small claims court or whatever you have agreed to in your agreement to settle such matters.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

pcplumber said:


> The question in this thread is regarding how to resolve the problem to get paid and my two posts are about how to negotiate and deal with the customer. Regardless, of the customer's specific complaints I am trying to point out that threatening with lawsuits and liens is not the best nor most-professional option.
> 
> I apologize if I appear to be hard. If a person is going to ask a serious question then I hope that person can take some serious constructive criticism and sugar-coating the subject is a senseless waste of time.
> 
> ...



I understand your point about customer service.
There is a difference between getting the wrong style door and being nit-picked to death. There is also a difference between quality work and someone on a power trip or having a real OCD problem.

To the OP, for $1200 just file small claims court. Cheap, quick, and easy.
Unless you already have a lawyer on retainer, you will have to pay a retainer to get one involved ($2-3,000), not worth it.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

I'm confused, if this is an 'ex-wife' thread, excuse me while I turn my caps-lock on . . .


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

I KNEW that dead pig/customer composter would come in handy....:blink:


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## tdmopar59 (May 7, 2012)

TimNJ said:


> I understand your point about customer service.
> There is a difference between getting the wrong style door and being nit-picked to death. There is also a difference between quality work and someone on a power trip or having a real OCD problem.
> 
> To the OP, for $1200 just file small claims court. Cheap, quick, and easy.
> Unless you already have a lawyer on retainer, you will have to pay a retainer to get one involved ($2-3,000), not worth it.


the power trip is a strong part of this. like i said i feel like a kid dancing around the school yard trying to get his lunch money back


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

If there is a contract, it is a simple breach of contract case. If there is a lawyer involved they will file as a breach, for the whole amount of the contract, regardless how much already been paid... and cases like this usually settled with a mediator and attorney fees being awarded, and the plaintiff gets his money to be made whole... 

Should this case go in front of the judge, and there is a full proof contract (don't have to be mambo jumbo or 20 pages long) and everything in the contract spells out as required by law, defendants are screwed. Period.

Seen this happen million times, been my self in 3 successful Breach of Contract litigation's and one thing I learned, when it comes to breach of contract it never fails because Contract is a Contract and Law is the law.

With that said, being a contractor it is not only about banging nails, it is also a business and we have to be educated in our field as well in our rights and what we have to do to get our hard earned money the fastest and most efficient way possible without a loss. To do that, we have to know the law and how things work. 

Difference between small claims court and special court divisions (NJ has them and so is everyone else, maybe called different).

Small claims court listens to both sides, and Judge listens to both sides and looks who has more proof and goes by that. If its going back and forth he will make a rough justice so it can go either way.

Special Courts generally address only one area of the law or they have specifically defined powers, so here you need solid proof which is a contract which was breached for none payment. Why payment wasn't done... there has to be solid proof, pictures, documentation, certified letters, etc to prove why final payment wasn't done. Period.
If the proof is not there, or the proof is some frivolous excuse without a merit, you win the whole package, not a portion of it, because that is the law... But like I've said before you have to have a nice simple contract (as every professional should have), because the more flaws you have in it, the less you will get.

Good luck


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## Home wood (Mar 8, 2014)

I am going through similar situation right now.
I have done several jobs for this client. He was always happy with our work. We priced fair but on the cheaper side. It was what he wanted.
"it's just a basement rental, I don't need it to be perfect"
BS
He had to move in his tenant before the final touches because of her situation. (leaving her husband and needed out ASAP)
We have now come to learn that she is not just a tenant and there is more to the relationship. Bottom line is she keeps making lists and I keep going back. Untill now.
The invoice for the additionals is in and not been paid.
The invoice for final draw on the kitchen is in.
He claimed he would have the money last Friday. Didn't happen.
Yet he's bitching that I won't come and install the tile back splash.
Pay up and then I show up.
I always split up the payments into what can seem like to many small payment. But it's less risk for me and should make my client feel more comfortable.

Any how good luck to you.
I'm getting burnt for prob close to $2000 but at least I got the first $30,000 before the B--ch / GF / Tenant from hell showed up.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Home wood said:


> I am going through similar situation right now.
> I have done several jobs for this client. He was always happy with our work. We priced fair but on the cheaper side. It was what he wanted.
> "it's just a basement rental, I don't need it to be perfect"
> BS
> ...


This thread is 2 years old. If he hasn't been paid by now he's probably not going to be.


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## Home wood (Mar 8, 2014)

Good point


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## JohnSawyer (Sep 28, 2016)

Depending upon your state, I would do the following. It seems that you have enough time to protect your lien rights. 

Step 1. Send "Notice to Owner" This procures your lien rights
Step 2. Send "Intent To Lien" This should get her attention
Step 3. File Lien if not paid 
Step 4. Release Lien after paid. 

I can share the timelines on these steps if I know the State of the Project. 

In many states, you cannot file a lien if the preliminary notices and Intents have not been sent. 

I predict when she gets the Notice to Owner and Intent to Lien, you will get paid. 
Good luck. 






tdmopar59 said:


> Hi all. I built a deck for a customer a couple weeks back with a fence going across the front and a gate. I had a contract although it was extremely simple it stated that I was installing a deck with pressure treated frame and decking, the cost, and the payment structure. I am licensed and insured in my state as a contractor (though still new at being on my own). The payment structure was 60% up front due to materials and 40% upon completion. The project was completed a couple weeks ago. She wasn't happy with the gate so I took it down and rebuilt it then asked for my payment. She continued to make minor complaints (literally the paint on a screw chipped off) and I entertained her and took care of all these things. Now its time for payment once again and she claims she is getting moisture in her storage closet. Simply put I don't see how the deck could cause it the joists run with a pitch sloping away from the house and the joists run level across. Also there is an overhang above the closet I just don't see how it could happen. This lady has been so negative, rude, obnoxious, and everything else you can think of from the start. I am at the point I don't want to talk or see her again. How do I go about getting my money? She said she's waiting on another opinion and still isn't happy with the way the gate looks. The payment wasn't contingent on someone else's opinion so I think she's doing something illegal there and the gate is perfectly fine. Every neighbor and person who saw the project besides her have given me plenty of compliments so i have the confidence to call it complete.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Thread is 2 years old


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> Thread is 2 years old


That's twice you told them!


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