# Business: whaddya call a carpentry contractor who contracts to frame for a lump sum?



## UpNorth (May 17, 2007)

Crazy? Or are many GCs still working this way?


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

UpNorth said:


> Crazy? Or are many GCs still working this way?


Lump sum as compared to what??


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I'd call him a framer.


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## UpNorth (May 17, 2007)

_Lump sum as compared to what?

_How about maybe getting paid a donkey for each crew-day it takes to do the job? 

Seriously. We're talking agreed-price versus the old "hey, whatever time I spent doing it is right, 'cause I'm always so perfect."


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

UpNorth said:


> _Lump sum as compared to what?_
> 
> How about maybe getting paid a donkey for each crew-day it takes to do the job?
> 
> Seriously. We're talking agreed-price versus the old "hey, whatever time I spent doing it is right, 'cause I'm always so perfect."


That was not your original question.

You wanted to know what to call a carpentry contractor that frames for a lump sum.

I asked as compared to what? Hourly? Square foot?


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## UpNorth (May 17, 2007)

Thanks, Tinstaafl.

And how many framers would also agree to include, for an additional to the framing price, all the exterior carpentry to execute siding, trim, and related flashings?

Because what I am getting at here is whether such carpentry contractors still exist in this building climate, the kind that are profitably selling their labor and expertise, and not supplying the materials to the job. And doing the packages for an agreed fixed price.


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

:gun_bandana:sama::saddam:


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

I'm slightly confused Gene. Someone building for a "lump sum" IMO is a sub contractor. Someone being paid hourly to frame a home/building...that's called a contractor hiring guys to do the work.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

UpNorth said:


> And how many framers would also agree to include, for an additional to the framing price, all the exterior carpentry to execute siding, trim, and related flashings?


I would, but I'm not a framer. He's a specialist.

I can't speak to how many of which specialty are out there, because I don't hire them. With rare exceptions, I do it all.


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## UpNorth (May 17, 2007)

Framerman, I believe that there are some framing subs that don't quote lump sum. They work on some basis they call "squarefeet" or "time&material," but they do not take the time to review and absorb info from a plan set, and actually figure a price.

I'm just wondering how many carpentry subs there are that do the frame and the outside finish.


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## carpant (Oct 16, 2010)

Most framers can do the oustide finish also usually a General contractor hires the framers at a fixed price or cost plus and if they do a good job he will offer them the exterior finishing but there is more and more companies that specialize on one thing and they are probably faster and cheaper at that one thing.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Gene, I'm sure that there are. That is the GC's call. If I was the GC, I would think that I would want to know a solid number. How is the GC ever to know how much the framing labor is going to cost? T&M for framing could get real ugly real fast. And IMO, unless there is a contract, then it is just the GC hiring temporary guys, subject to employee laws.

SF pricing is just a gauge to me. I don't ever say "I will frame your house for $10/ft", it is just a number to get it close. The framing sub needs to look at all of the details involved, especially with ceiling treatments, arches, rounded walls, etc.

If it is new construction, get the solid number. Don't play games with T&M or SF.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I am a bit confused by the question. I have framed per bid and also T&M. On some of the larger remodel/additions, we do more than just framing. We usually do all of the demo and sometimes some or all of the exterior trim. Generally prior to starting, I will give them an approximate price based on what is known about the job at that time. Sometimes we end up below the number, sometimes not. Most of the time I get pretty close though unless the scope of our involvement changes.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

UpNorth said:


> Framerman, I believe that there are some framing subs that don't quote lump sum. They work on some basis they call "squarefeet" or "time&material," but they do not take the time to review and absorb info from a plan set, and actually figure a price.
> 
> I'm just wondering how many carpentry subs there are that do the frame and the outside finish.


Gene,

Some jobs I giver a price for framing labor only.

Some jobs I give a price for framing labor and framing material. 

Some jobs I give a price on framing labor and siding/trim labor.

Some jobs I give a price for framing labor and materials and siding/trim labor and materials.

Some jobs I give a price on framing labor and exterior trim labor.

Some jobs I give a price on framing labor and materials and trim labor and materials.

Can I price a job looking at a set of plans, who can't?

There are some framers that just frame and do nothing else and strictly work for builders by the s/f framing houses only. I've done that just like every other framer does. You work by the s/f on new homes. That's the way it has always been.

Additions and remodeling are a different thing. Some jobs I work by the hour.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

In new construction, I've never supplied anything other than gun nails as a sub.

I had a general number per sq. ft. that I started with and added to that any upcharge for complicated roofs, unusual framing details, etc.

In this area, there aren't many framers that would put 50K+ out of pocket for lumber and hardware, let alone another 50K+ for *fenestration.:whistling*


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I agree with Riz. In new construction as a framing subcontractor, I only supply labor, nails, and crane time. Only time I would supply anything else is if I was the GC. Everyone here works the same way. I recently started doing some insurance work as a sub and was required to provide lumber and windows as well. These were smaller jobs with only a few thousand dollars in materials.


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

> *fenestration*


Sounds like the _Word Of The Day_...


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## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2010)

Almost everything I do is lump sum. Even on t&m I give a not to excede based upon plans and discusions. Most remodels I do are T&M with a not to excede and scope of work. All bids are linked to a numbered print with revision date on them and my estimate clearly has that date plan number and all changes extra with an hourly rate to be billed. This protects everyone. All prices can be broken down to a square ft price (total price divided by sq ft)


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

UpNorth said:


> Crazy? Or are many GCs still working this way?


I would call a GC that hired a framing sub with out having a firm number crazy.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

loneframer said:


> In new construction, I've never supplied anything other than gun nails as a sub.
> 
> I had a general number per sq. ft. that I started with and added to that any upcharge for complicated roofs, unusual framing details, etc.
> 
> In this area, there aren't many framers that would put 50K+ out of pocket for lumber and hardware, let alone another 50K+ for *fenestrations.:whistling*


 
Bob - fixed it for you - it's plural!


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## Kingstud (Jul 11, 2010)

I still don't understand the question, you bid a job, win the contract, do the job, get change orders for any alterations to design or specs you bid, bill for change orders, eat anything you missed. Same for piece work...


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## MarkWood (Oct 8, 2010)

Yeah I always do a lump sum anything else can get ugly in a hurry!


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## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

I read through this too, I don't understand the question either.

There's plenty of guys who will give a firm bid on a set of plans. Plenty of people will do T&M too. Whatever the guy with the checkbook wants. I prefer bids personally. With T&M, I don't feel like I have as much control.


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