# Carpenters union



## Local650

Is there any carpenters union work thats hiring anywhere and how do i get ahold of them if they are please help and respond been out of work for a long time and need a job thanks


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## Dirtywhiteboy

Local650 said:


> Is there any carpenters union work thats hiring anywhere and how do i get ahold of them if they are please help and respond been out of work for a long time and need a job thanks


 Not in the 50th state:no: All dried up But we have a rail system to start soon and that will need manpower:thumbup:


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## 3bar

the way things look, many of us may need to find new trades.


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## Sar-Con

Did you try calling the hall? Isn't that what they do?:thumbsup:


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## ApgarNJ

no work, no jobs. unions don't care if they lay you off for months at a time. happens to my neighbor all the time as an ironworker. the work simply isn't there.


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## woodworkbykirk

around here the union is dead, they keep trying to recruit guys but the union employment rate is less than 50%


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## nailit69

There's talk around here of closing the local hall and moving everything to a regional hall in the city. The union jobs are all dried up around my neck of the woods.


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## katoman

Local650 said:


> Is there any carpenters union work thats hiring anywhere and how do i get ahold of them if they are please help and respond been out of work for a long time and need a job thanks


That's the down side to unions. So what have you been doing?

Try to find your own work, or work for a non-union company. Are you just going to stay unemployed?


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## TBFGhost

woodworkbykirk said:


> around here the union is dead, they keep trying to recruit guys but the union employment rate is less than 50%


 
You are so freaking right. I have been on jobs sites and the BA has come around and tried to recruit me...recruit me, to gain what? No work...:no::laughing:


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## woodworkbykirk

the biggest sign around here that the union is hurting is that the local office moved out of hte central core of the city to just outside the city to sackville. my guess is they needed a cheaper place to set up shop.

i definitely wouldnt wait for the union to call you, start hunting for work. another pointless part of the union.... your not allowed to look for union work you gotta wait for them to call you


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## ApgarNJ

people are realizing that union contractors are costing them a lot MORE than non-union contractors.


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## JustaFramer

ApgarNJ said:


> people are realizing that union contractors are costing them a lot MORE than non-union contractors.



There is a secret to how union contractors are competitive with non-union.


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## mahlere

JustaFramer said:


> There is a secret to how union contractors are competitive with non-union.


market recovery is not a long term solution...


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## JustaFramer

mahlere said:


> market recovery is not a long term solution...



:laughing: No ****.


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## ApgarNJ

JustaFramer said:


> There is a secret to how union contractors are competitive with non-union.


the secret must not be working.....


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## Joedog

Unions are a thing of the past for trades....good bye


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## bluebird5

unions suck. they waste money paying a bunch a jackasses that always want more money and go on strike twice a year


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## Joasis

After Oklahoma became a RTW state, the power of the unions were over...here. In the coming year, look for the end of unions and begin to think about taking care of yourself.


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## Al Taper

Local650 said:


> Is there any carpenters union work thats hiring anywhere and how do i get ahold of them if they are please help and respond been out of work for a long time and need a job thanks


If your a union guy you know the union is the best part time job you have. Like what one union guy told me. Union pays for lunch and side work pays the bills..New Jersey is dead .. Not much union work these day as a worker. I signed up as a union contractor to bid work. I got more work that way last year then I did as a worker.


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## detroit687

Of course non union companys will pick up the scraps while the economy is down. But when the economy comes back skilled trades men will want a decent wage with benefits. Unions in the public sector should be destroyed, collective bargaining and goverment workers doesn't make sense. As far as the not working the whole year guys make more money in 8 months than non union 25 dollar an hour no benefits employees. I mean seriously I know so many non union carpenters with nothing. No retirement, no health insurance a broken back and elbows living in a trailer drinking way to much. It's sad unions are strugling and this class warfare crap that Obama preaching is going to wipe out the middle class. Really poor and really rich. 
Work will eventually pick up it allways does.


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## ApgarNJ

I know plenty of private non union contractors who make more than any union carpenter is going to make. maybe for that contractors employees, they might not be making what they could in a union, but the owner and the guy who might only have one or two employees is making more, or should be.

there are union guys out of work for much of the year. I have health insurance, i pay for it myself out of my pocket. others in this country choose to spend money on other things like booze, cigarettes, and fast food everyday. i don't like paying for HC but I won't be tied to a union at this point. I think if POTUS has his way, the whole country will be union. No thanks! my neighbor is a union iron worker and he gets work but then he's out for several months randomly, hard to deal with that. At least in the private sector, you can be the one out there looking for work, not depending on someone else to call you and say come to work.


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## detroit687

Are you a employee? I think your talking about a independant contractor a owner not an employee. Yes allot of non union contractors do well but being a employer and not a employee is not for everyone. But a skilled trades person should make a wage that could support a family. If not union wage than prevailing wage. I own a union company but I was raised on a union carpenters pay. My dad wasn't rich we lived average we had health insurance and we got to go on the occasional family vacation. Every ones so against unions because a journeyman carpenter with 4 years of trade school makes 29 bucks an hour with benefits. That's pathetic and it's not like the uaw carpenter can get fired at anytime.


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## NJ Brickie

ApgarNJ said:


> no work, no jobs. unions don't care if they lay you off for months at a time. happens to my neighbor all the time as an ironworker. the work simply isn't there.


First, unions do not employ tradesmen. Contractors do. The unions are not laying them off. Besides like you said no work, no job. Do you keep your guys around on the payroll if you do not have a job going on??





TBFGhost said:


> You are so freaking right. I have been on jobs sites and the BA has come around and tried to recruit me...recruit me, to gain what? No work...:no::laughing:


 It is no different union or non-union. If you are any good you will work. Do you think non-union companies have all the work??




woodworkbykirk said:


> i definitely wouldnt wait for the union to call you, start hunting for work. another pointless part of the union.... your not allowed to look for union work you gotta wait for them to call you


Speak about what you know. Have you ever belonged to a union? Some locals of certain trades do not allow you to solicit your own work. But may allow it.


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## NJ Brickie

ApgarNJ said:


> people are realizing that union contractors are costing them a lot MORE than non-union contractors.


Just like legit contractors cost alot more than the guy paying under the table to undocumented workers:whistling. 
Do you offer all of your employees health insurance they can afford? Or do you pass the buck onto their wife's employer? Or better yet, do you pass it onto the tax payers by them having to use government assistance when they need health care? Do you offer them retirement packages they can actually retire on? Or is the buck passed here too? All of these things "cost more".



Joedog said:


> Unions are a thing of the past for trades....good bye


 Yeah, good bye middle class America. Right on 



joasis said:


> After Oklahoma became a RTW state, the power of the unions were over...here. In the coming year, look for the end of unions and begin to think about taking care of yourself.


While I have read many of your posts, and generally agree with many of them. I can't disagree more here. Unions are not leaving just yet and being a RTW state is nothing to be proud of.


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## NJ Brickie

ApgarNJ said:


> I know plenty of* private non union contractors* who make more than any union carpenter is going to make. maybe for that contractors employees, they might not be making what they could in a union, but the owner and the guy who might only have one or two employees is making more, or should be.



First, union or non-union has nothing to do with a company being public or privately held. 

Second, You are comparing apples to oranges here. You can compare owners of similar size and type companies. Or you can compare employees with the same job. But lets not compare the CEO of one company to the 
factory floor worker of the next.


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## woodworkbykirk

the local here clearly tells guys your not allowed to solicit yourself to find work if your off you have to wait for a call otherwise risk being black balled within the union. also around here the union only accounts for about 30% of the commercial work going on there are several big non union companys taking most of the work. probably the only union jobs i know of right now are goverment projects and those are few

not to mention the better percentage of the union guys i know do more work outside the union than they do with it. they cant stand all the down time


Speak about what you know. Have you ever belonged to a union? Some locals of certain trades do not allow you to solicit your own work. But may allow it.[/quote]


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## Joasis

NJ Brickie said:


> While I have read many of your posts, and generally agree with many of them. I can't disagree more here. Unions are not leaving just yet and being a RTW state is nothing to be proud of.



Tell you a little union story: 

I was out of work in 1994....and although I hold an Airframe and Powerplant License, I was unable to be hired to work at the local air base....because they were union. You had to apply, get a job mowing or mopping, flipping burgers or whatever, and then as you gained "seniority", you could "bid" up to better paying jobs....like doing aircraft maintenance. Fully qualified people were not considered because of the union's rules...and the local base nearly closed because of the quality reviews of aircraft maintenance. However....the union did have something going I guess....take a kid off the street...let him work in the bowling alley or push a lawnmower for a year or so for $6 an hour (at that time) and before you could guess, he could be turning wrenches on a 10 million dollar trainer jet, like a T 38. :thumbsup:

Now granted....the thinking was that in the military, anyone could be trained to do anything and do it well, but in real life, in the civilian workforce, it just doesn't work that way. :no:

Now...after a few crashes and things getting out of hand, the union allowed Northrop Grumman to "go to the street": and hire qualified mechanics. I was hired in and until I left to teach aviation technology, the union took 2 hours of my pay every 2 weeks to "protect" me and negotiate for me. $64 a month. And the fact is this: After Northrop lost the contract and other contractors took over, Oklahoma became a RTW state...wages went up. No more lawn boys got to the flight line, and quality reviews got better. 

Unions had their time and place in America....many Americans owe their livelihoods to unions....but this is a different time. All one has to do is take a serious look at the true costs of the modern unions in America. Take a look at the thriving steel industry and auto makers.....the legacy costs of the negotiated benefits that the union wants others to pay for now.....well, we are the "others" who are now expected to pay the costs, and I have my own family to pay for.


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## Bergstrom

First off let me start by saying that I am a vested member of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters local 1865 in Minnesota. I worked as a cabinet maker for several years at a large shop in Minneapolis. Our shop was a closed shop which means that you had no choice but to join the union if you wished to keep your job. With that being said I became a union member at the age of 18. As the years passed I couldn't help but notice that the union was largely absent from the day to day operations of the plant and other than the fact that the cabinets rolling out the back doors had a "Union Made" stamp on them and your paycheck was $40.00 light every month you wouldn't even know that they were involved.

This always struck me as odd since we were the largest company in our local with over 100 employees. But just like clockwork every three years a few months before our labor contract was up the union agitators would show up and get everyone worked into a tizzy because the working conditions were so bad. I just remember thinking to myself "Hey buddy,how in the hell would you know what the working conditions are like, you haven't been around for three years?"

The main thing that always bothered me were the seniority requirements. No matter how much effort you put into your job and regardless of how well you performed it in relation to your co-workers you were only worth $X.xx per hour. I personally saw the drive to succeed be sucked out of otherwise ambitious people due to that very reason. After I figured out that the main obstacle in my way was the very thing that I had been funding for years I applied for and got a job as a shop supervisor. This is when my eyes were opened up to what was really going on. Although I often wondered about it during my time in the shop I never understood why certain people who really underperformed were never fired from their positions. I just figured maybe they caught the owner with his girlfriend while his wife was out of town or something.

It turned out,however, that it was almost impossible to fire someone regardless of how bad they were. Drunk,stoned,fighting, it didn't matter, once the grievance and arbitration process was followed the employee almost never lost his or her job. The end result was an employee base that lost the desire to excel at what they were doing. Now that I am older the whole experience reminds me of what communism must be like.


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## detroit687

I'm local 687 and it's nothing like what your talking about. The 50 dollar working dues is a small price to pay for your pension and anuity and health INS being taken care of. And I have never met a non union commercial carpenter employee making the same wage. And senority does not matter the employer has nothing to do with the union. The employees are union. If a employee in the ubc doesn't meet his quota than he's layed off. They will replace him in a blink of a eye. Exspecialy when times are slow. I own a union carpentry company and I can lay off anybody I want. I bid on non union work, prevailing wage work what ever. All it means is my minimum wage is different. And 90% off work the union does non union companys can bid on. Sometimes you have to pay prevailing wage. Really for any employee you would have to be stupid say you don't want to make a union wage. Or you don't want to go to trade school. 
I can see how some employers would want to pay there carpenters 25 bucks an hour. They get to pocket the other 20. 
As far as not being able to solicit work when your layed off. Your looking at it wrong, no if you bid a strip mall where you could hire union carpenters and pay there wage than they don't like that. If your layed off and you build a deck nobody cares. It's all about a fair wage for employees that's all the carpenters union is, it's for the working guys not the employers. 
Yes the uaw got out of controll and now there being put in check. Every union is different and anytime you deal with large amounts of money there's coruption just look at our government. 
Public sector unions are a joke, a civil servant shouldn't be able to strike. 
People complain about unions and don't say a word about government positions. There is a 23 year state represenative from Michigan starting out at 83 k with a 12 k expense account. Construction has the highest unemployment rate but government jobs show little effect.
The same people complaining about union wage are the same people complaining about craigslisters charging to little, talk about the pot calling the kettle black.


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## detroit687

23 year old waitress never had another job probably still lives at home with mom


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## Dirtywhiteboy

detroit687 said:


> But a skilled trades person should make a wage that could support a family





detroit687 said:


> . If not union wage than prevailing wage. I own a union company but I was raised on a union carpenters pay. My dad wasn't rich we lived average we had health insurance and we got to go on the occasional family vacation. Every ones so against unions because a journeyman carpenter with 4 years of trade school makes 29 bucks an hour with benefits. That's pathetic and it's not like the uaw carpenter can get fired at anytime.


36.20 in hawaii but that means nothing when there's no work:no: so now I work for 2 bills a day no benies, glad to be workin:clap:


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## ApgarNJ

pocket the other 20?? it's called TAXES, SS and other things that cost the company money for having an employee. you think if I pay my guy 20 bucks an hour and charge 40-45 to the customer that I'm pocketing 25 free and clear? I also offer healthcare. I pay 50% of the healthcare for any employee that works for me. I am a small contractor, so I only employee 1-2 guys plus myself at any given time. I don't go after union or commercial work.

I think the majority of the active members of this site are OWNERS not employees. If the union is that great then I'm happy for you. I just know I'd rather stick to what I'm doing now. If the union said, we'll pay you 80 bucks an hour and give you all the benefits and healthcare until you die, and a pension, and give you work most of the year, that would be good. But I don't hear that from most guys. Last union carpenter (employee) I talked to was making 27/hr and got benefits. He used to work for himself and got tired of chasing jobs and decided to go union. His best years salary was the same salary I had when I first started. I'm not sure he's making that much more than if he was working for a private company as a lead carpenter/foreman etc I bet he could make more than 27.

my neighbor the iron worker works on bridges and other big stadiums etc as they get built. he gets 70-80 bucks an hour as a union employee. that's pretty good. he usually has work now that stimulus money is being spent on bridges etc.

also has a long drive to NYC or that area every single morning.


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## detroit687

Exactly what I'm talking about
a union carpenter gets 46 per hour! They get 29 on there check the rest goes to there retirement health care anuity. I pay out 46 per man hour I then pay all my bills unemployment , taxes, comp , utilities. So to profit I have to charge at least 200 per man hour to profit but that's easy because I install commercial doors and hardware.


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## Sasquatch

Unions eufamism for extortion rings or legalized mafia?


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## tbronson

Unions. Allot like the Mafia. They take a percentage of your pay check and in return promise to "protect you" against the evil "Management". Sorry. I was forced to belong to one since it was a "Union Shop" and they did absolutely nothing for me except take 1% of my paycheck every pay period and get me discount tickets to Disneyland or Universal Studio's.


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## Mud Master

Unions suck.


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## detroit687

The reason why you don't hear good things about unions from most guys, is the guys that work all year round aren't saying anything. It's the slugs that are not working that are botching. All the union shops don't shut down there still building. I don't have to pay union wages my gc's could care less but Ive got good employees and they make a fair wage. 
I worry about what's in store for my daughter, is the USA going to be one big wall mart? A couple of managers making a good wage and hundreds of employees making nothing.


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## griz

IMO, the unions used to be able to provide skilled journeyman & apprentices willing to work.

Anymore you get some sloth out of the hall who might know which end of the hammer to hang on to or that there are really more than black & white wires in a circuit.

They want top dollar for a minimum output & look for any opportunity to complain to the BA if you ask for anything more.

A minor scrape or cut gets them 2 weeks off on a supposed "Comp Injury". 

If they are more than 20 seconds from the job they want travel time & per diem.

Unions wore themselves out long ago. Now just die & go away.


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## detroit687

Wow if that's the case I wonder how I get awarded any jobs? How do I compete with thes awesome non union guys? This is not the uaw I can fire my employees and I can hire non union. I've seen non union guys resumes in the commercial world it's a joke. My guys drill holes in thousand dollar doors I need a skilled labor. Journey man cards, OSHA cert , lock and hardware cert, Residential builders license my guys have all of this. I can't get away with just paying 25 bucks an hour. And the trade school I went to for four years was a good school. Probably one of the best in the country.


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## griz

If you have a hall with good people & a BA that can keep his nose out of your business, more power to you.

Just a side note, there are a lot of craftsman out there that can drill $1000 doors.

And you had a good trade school. I think that is a lot of the problem today. The apprenticeship programs just aren't be done. Most guys can just go to a hall & buy a card.


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## MSLiechty

out here in So- Ca, carpenters have some commercial work. This year does appear its going to be better than last year. 

ML


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## MSLiechty

detroit687 said:


> Exactly what I'm talking about
> a union carpenter gets 46 per hour! They get 29 on there check the rest goes to there retirement health care anuity. I pay out 46 per man hour I then pay all my bills unemployment , taxes, comp , utilities. So to profit I have to charge at least 200 per man hour to profit but that's easy because I install commercial doors and hardware.



Our carpenters are getting close to $45 on the check. It cost me $61/ hr to keep them employed. You are saying you can complete with non union wages? My competitipn is paying $18- $20 an hour with no bennies. makes it pretty hard to compete on non- union projects. But since the majority of our work is high rise work, it limits the playing field regardless how unfair it is.

ML


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## carpsteve

bluebird5 said:


> unions suck. they waste money paying a bunch a jackasses that always want more money and go on strike twice a year



You should not generalize, not all unions operate the same


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## JustaFramer

carpsteve said:


> You should not generalize, not all unions operate the same


Actually they are. Just found out the other day the top leadersh!t wants to consolidate the union halls in W. Washington. After some investigation it looks like the regional is looking to steal millions of dollars from the formal locals. They claim it will stream line and make the union run better.  
I will not longer pay dues. If they try and kick me out and stop me from working I will sue the ****er scum cock suckers.


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## carpsteve

JustaFramer said:


> Actually they are. Just found out the other day the top leadersh!t wants to consolidate the union halls in W. Washington. After some investigation it looks like the regional is looking to steal millions of dollars from the formal locals. They claim it will stream line and make the union run better.
> I will not longer pay dues. If they try and kick me out and stop me from working I will sue the ****er scum cock suckers.


We have similar situation with the consolidation but I here its the outside local that is in trouble any now we will absorb there problem. I agree that the political stuff is bull and I haven't attended a meeting in 25 years, i also hate that they now appoint a pres instead of elections. I also hate that they seem to think I work for them instead of they work for me. On the other hand if I worked non union I would not start getting my pension at the end of this year and I would not have had health insurance for me and my family, not to mention lower wages. I think you and I are on the same page I just get tired of the union haters saying we don't work are asses off and all we want is more, more, more. We can't solicite our own work and that a contractor has to hire from the hall which is not true in my area. Are there duds in the union sure, but I ain't one of them. I also hate those that say that we only work 6 months a year which might be true for some but not me until this past year. Around here you would make as much or more in 6 month than the non union. I am glad I am almost done. I hope things work out for you


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## JustaFramer

We are going through a total reconsolidation. Any property, monies, etc now belongs to the regional. 
The myth that union members are lazy is a myth. At least in the construction unions. I know I tried being lazy once. :laughing: Just once. The don't pay out around 50 bucks a hour to slugs. It just doesn't happen especially when there is no senority clause. There is not first in last out. or last in first out rule. You work for what you get. Period.


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## carpsteve

JustaFramer said:


> We are going through a total reconsolidation. Any property, monies, etc now belongs to the regional.
> The myth that union members are lazy is a myth. At least in the construction unions. I know I tried being lazy once. :laughing: Just once. The don't pay out around 50 bucks a hour to slugs. It just doesn't happen especially when there is no senority clause. There is not first in last out. or last in first out rule. You work for what you get. Period.


 We will probably be doing the same thing. I am glad I am almost out. People start loosing pensions and there will be some serious issues.


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## detroit687

I wish i could of responded to some of these funny posts earlier. I was on vacation in Peru. The best funny post was laborers hanging commercial doors and hardware. 
The 200 dollars per man hour my company charges is my average of gross sales divided by total man hours. That doesnt just pay for my guys wage that has to pay to keep the lights on in my office. I compete with non union companys that only pay a journeyman $20 bucks. My employees have to have drug tests, physicals. Have there Osha 30 hr, have there ingersol rand door hardware certificate. There not just laborers working on uncle toms house. There installing vertical rod panics with delayed egress and coordinators and lcn closers on thousand dollar lead lined doors in hospitals next to the ICU. These are professional tradesman. 
If Michigan does become a right to work state and the union is disbanded and I start paying my guys 20-25 bucks an hour I wouldnt but lets say I did. What wage do you think you non union 20-25 an hour employees are going to make? You think that your going to make the same as the guys that were once working for $46 dollars an hour? Collective bargaining for a minimum wage is a good thing. Not in the public sector but definetly in the private. Im not talking about the retarded out of controll uaw. I can fire any one of my carpenters tomorrow if they look at me wrong union or not. All the union makes me do is pay there wage and benefits. 
Im not saying there are not proffesional non union carpenters out there that meet the same requirements that my guys do. But they want the same money or they are running work for some one else or they own there own companys. My guys would laugh in my face if i told them there going to work for 25 bucks an hour and no benefits and gas is going to be 5 bucks a gallon this summer.


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## Mike Carpenter

detroit687 said:


> I wish i could of responded to some of these funny posts earlier. I was on vacation in Peru. The best funny post was laborers hanging commercial doors and hardware.
> The 200 dollars per man hour my company charges is my average of gross sales divided by total man hours. That doesnt just pay for my guys wage that has to pay to keep the lights on in my office. I compete with non union companys that only pay a journeyman $20 bucks. My employees have to have drug tests, physicals. Have there Osha 30 hr, have there ingersol rand door hardware certificate. There not just laborers working on uncle toms house. There installing vertical rod panics with delayed egress and coordinators and lcn closers on thousand dollar lead lined doors in hospitals next to the ICU. These are professional tradesman.
> If Michigan does become a right to work state and the union is disbanded and I start paying my guys 20-25 bucks an hour I wouldnt but lets say I did. What wage do you think you non union 20-25 an hour employees are going to make? You think that your going to make the same as the guys that were once working for $46 dollars an hour? Collective bargaining for a minimum wage is a good thing. Not in the public sector but definetly in the private. Im not talking about the retarded out of controll uaw. I can fire any one of my carpenters tomorrow if they look at me wrong union or not. All the union makes me do is pay there wage and benefits.
> Im not saying there are not proffesional non union carpenters out there that meet the same requirements that my guys do. But they want the same money or they are running work for some one else or they own there own companys. My guys would laugh in my face if i told them there going to work for 25 bucks an hour and no benefits and gas is going to be 5 bucks a gallon this summer.


100% agreed. Thank you for being a part of the UBC!


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## jhark123

detroit687 said:


> Exactly what I'm talking about
> a union carpenter gets 46 per hour! They get 29 on there check the rest goes to there retirement health care anuity. I pay out 46 per man hour I then pay all my bills unemployment , taxes, comp , utilities. So to profit I have to charge at least 200 per man hour to profit but that's easy because I install commercial doors and hardware.


 
Your a better business man than I, my friend.

I don't think that would fly in an open residential market. I carpenter is just not worth $1600/day to a customer 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time.

I don't hate unions or union workmen, I hate the laws that give them special protections. You don't like the wages/benifits I offer, fine - go find another company to work for.

And $25/hr is a wage that a man can support a family on with no benifits, not that I owe that to anyone. It's 50k a year with two weeks unpaid vacation.


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## Jaws

NJ Brickie said:


> Just like legit contractors cost alot more than the guy paying under the table to undocumented workers:whistling.
> Do you offer all of your employees health insurance they can afford? Or do you pass the buck onto their wife's employer? Or better yet, do you pass it onto the tax payers by them having to use government assistance when they need health
> care? Do you offer them retirement packages they can actually retire on? Or is the buck passed here too? All of these things "cost more".
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, good bye middle class America. Right on
> 
> 
> 
> While I have read many of your posts, and generally agree with many of them. I can't disagree more here. Unions are not leaving just yet and being a RTW state is nothing to be proud of.


 Why is it the responsibility of the employer to take care of HC for employees? This is the entitlement mindset that is ruining this country. No one owes you anything. I pay an above average wage and expect them to take care of their own needs, just as I do. 

I never expected any of my employers to pay my HI, just a honest days pay for an honest days work. 

Why is being a RTW state something to NOT be proud of? The unions her suck, and are way over priced, they aren't craftsman at all for the most part, and when work gets slow for a carpenter here, he puts on his boots, packs a lunch and goes out to sites to find work, if he's worth a sh##. 

You want to talk about leaching, the union LIVES on unemployment payed by the public coffers. JAW


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## NJ Brickie

jawtrs said:


> Why is it the responsibility of the employer to take care of HC for employees? This is the entitlement mindset that is ruining this country. No one owes you anything. I pay an above average wage and expect them to take care of their own needs, just as I do.
> 
> I never expected any of my employers to pay my HI, just a honest days pay for an honest days work.
> 
> Why is being a RTW state something to NOT be proud of? The unions her suck, and are way over priced, they aren't craftsman at all for the most part, and when work gets slow for a carpenter here, he puts on his boots, packs a lunch and goes out to sites to find work, if he's worth a sh##.
> 
> You want to talk about leaching, the union LIVES on unemployment payed by the public coffers. JAW


Whose responsibility is HC? Ultimately it is an individuals. I positioned myself with employment that covers HC. You pay above average wage, care to share what you pay specific tradesman? If not I understand that it is a private thing for many people. But the "average" does not come close to paying for HC and living life as I have already said here. You maybe a good, responsible employer, but many are not and I am not personally attacking you here. But why not offer your guys HC so they can get a group rate if you have enough employees? Where to they currently get insurance/HC from? Is the buck passed to their spouses' employer or to tax payers through government assistance? It is not about "entitlement", it is about paying what things actually cost. People need Health care during their lives. They also need a paycheck. My job provides a paycheck and HC and is not supplemented by anything else, no government assistance or need to be married to someone with insurance. So like I said, it is paying what things actually cost.

About RTW states. Even after adjusting for cost of living in different areas, comparable workers in RTW states make an average of 6.5% less. Work place accidents are over 50% higher in RTW states. Over 20% more people lack health insurance in RTW states and poverty rates are higher. Nothing to be proud of.

As far as unemployment goes. If union construction workers only make up 13% of all construction workers and unemployment for construction is at 27%, do the math. Especially since housing(mostly non union) has been hit the hardest. You may also want to look at how unemployment is funded.


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## katoman

I don't think $25/hr is sufficient for anyone to raise a family on. I am all for a decent wage for tradesmen.

That's what the unions have fought for for so long. I'm non union, but agree with the fight for a decent wage and safety, and training.

If all GCs had to pay union rates the results would simply be less work, more layoffs. This is a complicated topic with no simple answers. 

But I support well trained tradesmen, being paid a good wage, mandatory trade certification, and health care as we have in Canada.

That's my take on it. Good luck to us all. The free enterprise system has already balanced it out at the cost of the employee.


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## Jaws

I guess things are different here. No one charges 200 an hour I can guarantee you. I was making 23 an hour as a commercial carpenter FOREMAN and I was tickled to get it.

25 an hour for a lead tradesman is a very good wage here. I'm a contractor and I made less than that last year

Maybe it is different up there, but here only large. Corps pay HC here, and they don't pay as good a wage I pay a competitive wage and expect them to pay their own way from there out. As it should be imo, if you want benys go to work for a big corparation, not a residential builder down here. JAW


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## jhark123

katoman said:


> I don't think $25/hr is sufficient for anyone to raise a family on. I am all for a decent wage for tradesmen.
> 
> That's what the unions have fought for for so long. I'm non union, but agree with the fight for a decent wage and safety, and training.
> 
> If all GCs had to pay union rates the results would simply be less work, more layoffs. This is a complicated topic with no simple answers.
> 
> But I support well trained tradesmen, being paid a good wage, mandatory trade certification, and health care as we have in Canada.
> 
> That's my take on it. Good luck to us all. The free enterprise system has already balanced it out at the cost of the employee.


Maybe the costs are different where you live. You can get a starter home for 200k here and our median household income is about 55k IIRC. We bought our first home when I was making $11/hr and my wife was working for $13/hr part time. Granted things were tight, but one does not need everything that society says you should want. I never made more than $16/hr working for someone else. This is all with 2 children and a spouse. So, when someone says that you cannot raise a family on $25/hr I just don't understand. 50-70% of our population seems to do it just fine.

A job will pay what the market demands in a FREE market. A wage is a negotiation between employee and employer. Like I said I don't care if my employees appointed a representative to negotiate on their behalf, but I should be able to fire every last one of them just as they are free to quit at any time.


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## detroit687

jawtrs said:


> Why is it the responsibility of the employer to take care of HC for employees? This is the entitlement mindset that is ruining this country. No one owes you anything. I pay an above average wage and expect them to take care of their own needs, just as I do.
> 
> I never expected any of my employers to pay my HI, just a honest days pay for an honest days work.
> 
> Why is being a RTW state something to NOT be proud of? The unions her suck, and are way over priced, they aren't craftsman at all for the most part, and when work gets slow for a carpenter here, he puts on his boots, packs a lunch and goes out to sites to find work, if he's worth a sh##.
> 
> You want to talk about leaching, the union LIVES on unemployment payed by the public coffers. JAW


Its not my responsibility to pay for there healthcare. I have to pay them what there contract is wich is 46 an hour 29.60 on there check and the rest goes to there pension anuity and healthcare.
Why do they want it that way because they get a group rate, and they have a office with secretarys that take care of it for them . I pay them what there willing to work for. You dont know what is overpriced.
Heres a scenario, exterior framing multi million dollar project. 16 gauge 28 foot studs shot to the iron work. Comp, liability, scissor lift rental, pay for the studs, pay for the track and pan heads, pay for the powder actuated fastner, pay for the shot, pins, pay for the labor, pay for my office, lights, receptionist , estimator , dense glass and its commercial so im not getting a startup payment. Im on net 30 and there holding on to 10% for retainage. I for got safety meetings, harnesses, tool box talks. 
I only make money for what I build in the field. The lineal footage price for that wall I just described better pay for all those expenses and make my company money. I cant run a business on T&M but yes when i have to I charge a gc T&M im charging about 65-70 per man hour but I make much more than that when I bid a job. 
You lived just fine on 23 an hour with no benefits, I think my employees definition of quality of life is different than yours. And theres nothing wrong with that. 23 an hour - health care for a family, truck payment, mortgage, tools, gas ....I dont know how you do it brother.
You cant compare commercial with residential and all companys are bigger and smaller. Just because im a bigger company than others doesnt mean I have more employees. And there are residential companys out there that make me look like im working out of a enclosed trailer and a clip board. 
Gene Auger , he owns Auger Built Carpentry they just do residential and multifamily framing. My company is a peanut compared to him, I sit at the kids table compared to him. Hes with out question a multi multi millionaire.
And Ive said it before I can fire anyone of my employees even if there union. 
Enough of this class warfare crap, you dont know what my carpenters are worth or what they deserve to make. There worth what ever I can sell there product or service is what there worth. And Im not lying if my guys are installing 10 hollow metals with vertical rod panics and closers im making about 200 per hour per man that they work. That pays me my overhead and there wage. 
ENTITLEMENT ok chairman MAO.


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## detroit687

I was just thinking about a guy I went to apprenticeship school with, In our third year his wife who was only like 25 got cancer. Fortunatley as a third year apprentices we were only making like 17 or 18 an hour but we had blue cross from the carpenters union . He got lucky. How many apprentices are out there making 10-12 an hour with no benefits. So what who cares ? I got to go to a four year trade school, class was 8 hrs every other week and was a paid 8 hours. I only had to pay 150 for books and 150 for tuition every class. classes were three months long. Taught buy qualified instructors from everything from level and transit to cabinetry. I got health ins, pension, MRA. 
I guess even though I am a employer now, I feel like I owe allot to the carpenters union and wouldnt hire a 23 hour journeyman who has no clue what a decent, safe , career as a carpenter is. Even if it means making less money.


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## Jaws

As I said, it must be a regional thing. Your labor IS worth whatever you can sell it for. I live in the Highland Lakes, near Austin. We have the most expensive labor in the state other than Austin. A high framing cost for custom framing on a multi million dollar house is 7.50 a foot. At 46 an hour you would never sell a job here. Commercial they get a bit more, some may get 60 an hour. The GC I ran a crew for was charging 45 an hour, and he was considered high


I shouldn't talk about what I don't know about, the unions up there may be very good. Every union crew I ever worked around was pathetic, save for a few guys. Too many breaks, too much bitching, too much specializing, they wouldn't hang dry wall, bitched up a storm over digging footings, it was ridiculous. But it may very well be different there. Who knows, maybe it is better, but not to me. JAW


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## NJ Brickie

jhark123 said:


> Your a better business man than I, my friend.
> 
> I don't think that would fly in an open residential market. I carpenter is just not worth $1600/day to a customer 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time.


Like Detroit was saying, it is apples to oranges. Small residential contractor vs. large commercial contractor. The overhead for large commercial contractors is huge. Just to put it into perspective, the company I work for has more money wrapped up in just scaffolding than alot of small companies have into their entire companies including trucks. They also have more employees at the office/shop than total employees of many companies. Estimators, mechanics, truck drivers, secretaries, and road man. Think about how much more you would have to charge if you needed just one of these people. This all does not even scratch the surface of overhead. Equipment, insurance, vehicles, the list goes on and on. And the bottom line is for every brick I lay the cost of all of these things are built into that. So yes the small residential contractor could lay that same brick for alot less money, but he could also not do most of the jobs we do.


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## NJ Brickie

jhark123 said:


> A job will pay what the market demands in a FREE market. A wage is a negotiation between employee and employer. Like I said I don't care if my employees appointed a representative to negotiate on their behalf, but I should be able to fire every last one of them just as they are free to quit at any time.


Most locals you can fire someone, as long as it is legal, just like they can quit. You would not be very happy if you got what you are asking for, a free market. There needs to be checks and balances. Otherwise there would be the "haves and have nots" and you and I would be dirt poor. Unions effect what you pay your guys and how much you make weather you see that or not.


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