# WSIB in plain text ?



## muskoka guy (Nov 16, 2013)

Never had a late payment, everything one hundred percent legit. Have had them send me a bill that I didn't owe and have to spend four hours on the phone to have it reversed. Have had them not send out remittance forms on time, then have to scramble to have one faxed at the last minute to avoid penalty. When asked why they were not mailed, they said it was a glitch in the system. Could probably take a chance on paying it late, but might get a penalty. You never want to be late with a wsib payment. If you have never had any issues with dealing with the govt I say you are lucky.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

muskoka guy said:


> Never had a late payment, everything one hundred percent legit. Have had them send me a bill that I didn't owe and have to spend four hours on the phone to have it reversed. Have had them not send out remittance forms on time, then have to scramble to have one faxed at the last minute to avoid penalty. When asked why they were not mailed, they said it was a glitch in the system. Could probably take a chance on paying it late, but might get a penalty. You never want to be late with a wsib payment. If you have never had any issues with dealing with the govt I say you are lucky.


The online system has really streamlined WSIB. About 6 years ago CRA sent me a letter claiming they needed some documents and I never received the letter, the letter I got was one that said I owed 10K. So I cut them a cheque, submitted the docs, 6 weeks later they paid me back my money...so ultimately it was the postal service that screwed up.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

Pretty much if you are unable to provide a proper clearance certificate now, then the contractor probably is not going to hire you as a sub. Don't make them deviate from what they normally do and be a pain. 

You should be able to get a WSIB number without issue now as WSIB wants the money. It puts you on the same playing field as everyone else, and you can also easily hire others to work for you. 

As for what you pay a percentage on, you pay it on your wages, meaning what you pay yourself. 

If you are a sole proprietor this is obviously going to be difficult. 

Doubly if you are a sole proprietor and in the security game, the f'in stop it! Get a corporation set up with proper FTP and liability insurance. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then you will be in for a real awakening if something goes wrong. 

Oh ya, join CANASA. Get an ATC1. You will learn a lot about what is available for security contractors in Canada and what you should be doing.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

We still hire them as subs, we just deduct for the WSIB. These guys realize they are in the wrong, need/want the work and know it has to be paid, by the next project they have all their ducks in a row.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

GregS said:


> Pretty much if you are unable to provide a proper clearance certificate now, then the contractor probably is not going to hire you as a sub. Don't make them deviate from what they normally do and be a pain.
> 
> You should be able to get a WSIB number without issue now as WSIB wants the money. It puts you on the same playing field as everyone else, and you can also easily hire others to work for you.
> 
> ...


No, if you are a sole proprieter you pay WSIB on the total gross labour portion of a contract. If it's 500 bucks in materials and 500 labour, you pay %3.61 x 500 (for security).

You don't have to be incorporated to get FTP and Liability insurance either, but it's silly not to be incorporated for the sake of retaining earnings in your company.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

I know you do not have to be incorporated, however being incorporated puts a greater distance between yourself and your company when it comes to liability. When the sh!t hits the fan hopefully it does not extend beyond the company and affect you personally. 

And if you have to pay WSIB on the retail value of the labour portion, that's even more reason to get incorporated where you just pay on the wages earned per employee, including yourself.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

I still argue security installers can bill their WSIB under 7791-001 : Security Services when not pulling wire. Its something like half the cost of the electrical rate. 

I would also say if I sold and installed the system I can bill everything under 7791-001.

I say keep a log for when you are pulling wire and when you are doing other things bill under the cheaper rate.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

SectorSecurity said:


> I still argue security installers can bill their WSIB under 7791-001 : Security Services when not pulling wire. Its something like half the cost of the electrical rate.
> 
> I say keep a log for when you are pulling wire and when you are doing other things bill under the cheaper rate.


Yes you can but WSIB requires you to keep separate records...pain in the ass. Technically you don't need WSIB if you are the company principle and you aren't pulling wires because that doesn't fall under mandatory.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

Inner10 said:


> Yes you can but WSIB requires you to keep separate records...pain in the ass. Technically you don't need WSIB if you are the company principle and you aren't pulling wires because that doesn't fall under mandatory.


I would argue if you are an SP selling and installing your security systems then you don't need WSIB because you are under a class I schedule, not a class G, but I am betting WSIB would debate that.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

SectorSecurity said:


> I would argue if you are an SP selling and installing your security systems then you don't need WSIB because you are under a class I schedule, not a class G, but I am betting WSIB would debate that.


They did when I called them.

I had a long conversation about it with a two different people at WSIB, the long and the short of it is if you touch a wire you pay the electrician's rate.

Us lads in the security industry get to pay 3x the insurance of an electrician and still get hammered with the same WSIB rate.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

Inner10 said:


> They did when I called them.
> 
> I had a long conversation about it with a two different people at WSIB, the long and the short of it is if you touch a wire you pay the electrician's rate.
> 
> Us lads in the security industry get to pay 3x the insurance of an electrician and still get hammered with the same WSIB rate.


Thats the problem WSIB wrote the rules and they have the final say on how they are interpreted.

The insurance sucks, having to pay to carry a bunch of extra policy riders such as failure to perform, to be lumped into the same WSIB class.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

SectorSecurity said:


> Thats the problem WSIB wrote the rules and they have the final say on how they are interpreted.
> 
> The insurance sucks, having to pay to carry a bunch of extra policy riders such as failure to perform, to be lumped into the same WSIB class.


That's why most alarm installers don't carry insurance or WSIB...hack industry.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

Inner10 said:


> That's why most alarm installers don't carry insurance or WSIB...hack industry.


Thats why I took your advice several months ago and got out of the alarm game, to much hassle to make 5$ a month off a customer.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

SectorSecurity said:


> Thats why I took your advice several months ago and got out of the alarm game, to much hassle to make 5$ a month off a customer.


The only reason I stick with it is because I'm forced to pay the insurance anyway, I have builders that I sub too that want to deal with one business for automation/network/alarm/cctv/cvac etc. 

The alarm industry is the perfect example of a race to the bottom. I was doing some POTS work on a job last week and noticed the alarm installer didn't even put the interrupter before the phones, he just connected it in parallel with the lines in the house. New installation done by ADT.

I was working in a restaurant and the alarm installer waited 45 minutes on hold with Protectron before he could speak to an agent at the monitoring station.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

WSIB has 2 rates for me, mine and only mine and the other which is for everyone except myself no matter what the job entails. Everything from admin to working a homeshow to being in the field is my typical 9.1%. Bonuses and incentives are subject to WSIB.

I had my kids on payroll and after quite a few months I removed them, so much for employing your kids and giving them money for nothing, I had to pay WSIB even though they were not doing anything...except going to school, but since they were getting paid from the company, WSIB was due.


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## muskoka guy (Nov 16, 2013)

We tried that angle as well. We do a lot of framing. We also own heavy equipment, as well as a few other fingers in the pie. wsib basically said we would be charged at the higher rate regardless of how little risk the other operations were. I guess they figured if they allowed us a lower rate on one operation, we would just move all our expenses over to the lower rate. They got you coming or going.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

Seems stupid to me to have different classes if they are going to lump everyone into the highest priced one, but then again the government does a lot of stuff I don't understand.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

SectorSecurity said:


> Seems stupid to me to have different classes if they are going to lump everyone into the highest priced one, but then again the government does a lot of stuff I don't understand.


They are hurting for money and decided to squeeze the blood from our stones...pay up or move on is all we got left.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

I was told a similar thing. I can't put my office admin at a lower rate. She never goes to job sites, doesn't even go in the warehouse, yet I still have to pay electricians rates for her. 

WSIB said I could set up another company for her, bit then I would have to contract that company, separate HST, blah labels not worthy for a single person. 

If I had an office full of people, then ya.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Set up the second company, it's your holding company, the cost for accounting shouldn't exceed $1000 yr. depending on your WSIB rate you may be ahead of the game. How do you think the big boys do it?


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