# Standard proceedure or ?



## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

After tearing off the existing roof, is it standard proceedure to dry in before repairing the damaged decking? There was dry rot over the eaves and around some of the vents.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

not unless it's raining.not only does your wood have to be replaced it would be a good idea to find out why it rotted to begin with.Here in NW Indiana I apply ice&water shield to the eaves ,rake and valleys.
ice shield gets applied to the wood deck also.I've seen it put on top of felt and old shingles.check out certainteed.com they have a great site that is very informative.
is it open eaves and rakes?venting?


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

I agree with roofwiz. Fix the wood and apply ice shield on the eves.

The reason I think it is damaged is because the vents leaked from improper isntallation and the eaves leaked from ice jams. Apply the ice shield and install the vents correctly.

Also, look for any protrusions in the roof above or around the bad areas. These could have leaked and caused the damage.


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

I'm in South Florida. The roof has a low slope and it was shingled before. The underlayment went under the drip edge by the gutters, I was told that was part of the problem. Also, there is very little roof ventilation the eaves are closed, no ridge vent. Here's the deal. It looks like the contractor I hired was going to just cover up all the bad wood without replacing it until I got up on the roof and lifted the underlayment, saw the damage and made him fix what I saw. The damage that I'm aware of is fixed and he torched down the rubberoid, the inspector should be here tomorrow. I'm concerned about what I may have missed, I know he didn't remove all the old tar paper and I felt something crunchy under my feet in one area and another soft spot over one of the eaves. Do you have any advise for me?

Thanks, Karen


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

When you hire someone, you should trust them. They have to guarantee it.
Let the inspector do his job. And Let the roofer do his. There is nothing worse than a homeowner who thinks they can inspect a professionals job.


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

Thanks MJW, I wish I could. I guess I should of told the whole story, but I won't bore you with the details. The inspector is coming today and I'll point out the obvious dry rot he left on my exposed tongue and groove ceiling, by the way the inspector is suspicious because the roofer never called in for an inspection after it was dryed in. I also told the roofer that I would like to see the decking after he tore off the old roof. Which he never allowed me to do, I was home all day. He didn't even rip off the old tar paper. He told me that he would be finished the next day. So, like I said, I went up on the roof myself after he left and saw that he had dryed in over the caved decking in four spots. That's when I called the inspector myself and they had told me he had not called in for inpection. The cheif inspector told me he would send someone over right away. The inspector came and we showed him all of the spots, he immediately called the roofer to let him know he was up on the roof looking at his work, well the job ended up taking 3 days instead of 2 like he had said. Who knows whats under the original tar paper, I'll never know. When he was hammering in the drip edge over the front door, (which he pieced in a 10" piece and also made a bad cut with his tin snips right in the corner which I have to look at) his hammer was bouncing and nails were going through without hitting wood, I asked him, if that was a soft spot because thats where the original damage had occured from a tree rubbing up against the fascia, he replied, "I don't think so". So that's kind of the whole story and the reason I don't really trust him as much as I thought I did when I hired him. The inpectors around here normally do not get up on the roofs and the roofer is allowed to finish 50% of it, this is what the chief inspector told me, so you have to kinda keep an eye on things yourself. I guess I did bore you with the whole story, but anyways I wish it could have been an easy as your reply, that's the way I would have liked it to have gone. Being a painting contractor, I am constantly asked dozens of questions by all the homeowners, they do have the right to know what is being done to their home, after all,you are working for them. Thanks again.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

I may be wrong, but it looks like old coving on the edges. That should all be taken off. I can see where you are coming from totally, but you hired them.

I have had jobs where people tell me how to do my job. I then tell them, if they know everything, to do it themselves.

Was this guy the best price? Any references? How did you come upon this roofing contractor?


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*Something else was not addressed*

You state that you have tongue and groove ceilings, so a vaulted/cathedral ceiling I presume? Also, the 2" X's running parallel to the eave edge would inhibit any fresh air intake to get into each rafter bay to travel towards the ridge of the roof for complete air exchange.

If the wood feels crunchy when you walk on it, it is probably already delaminating from previous leakage or condensation due to inadequate ventilation. 

I do not want to accuse any other roofer of not doing there job properly without personally seeing the work in progress because many times moderately crunchy wood may be deemed to not require replacement. 

My own opinion would be to point out all potential "future" problems and let the homeownere make the call. I feel that if you are putting on a 30 -50 year roofing product, the decking should be expected to last at least that long as well.

Ed


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

MJW, I usually hire people by word of mouth (friends, family, coworkers etc) but I am new in the area and don't know anyone yet. So, I pulled three local roofing contractors out of the yellow pages. Got my estimates and this guy was the cheapest by just $200.00 and their contracts were identical with regard to what they were going to do ie: tear off existing roof down to smooth clean surface, new lead boots, drip edge etc, down to replacing ALL rotten lumber. I ran his name through the Better Business Bureau on my computer and checked out his license and he has been in business here in my town for 20 years with no complaints filed. At this point, I called his home and went over the contract with him so I could fully understand it, spoke with my husband, called him back the next day and told him he had the job, but the thing that I really liked about him is that he worked with his wife and it is just those two, I work with my husband also. So, the husband and wife team impressed me. I assumed that the lower price was due to the lower overhead. The third estimate was so much higher than the first two, I assumed that it was due to their overhead...full page Ad in yellow pages, secretary etc. So, I thought I did my due diligence and also went with a gut feeling. Also, the third and highest bid asked how he did in price and I showed him the other bids. He said he new of all of them (small town) and said nothing bad about any of them just that the lowest bid guy was " a little out there". Strange is okay as long as he does a good job as far as I was concerned. In hind sight that was my heads up, I guess. I wish he would of have told me to check his references. But, that's my mistake alone. I'll let you know what happens after the inspector leaves.


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

*After photo*







This is a picture of the finished product over the area I posted earlier around the electrical coming into the house. What do you think?


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

I mistakenly did not note that a torch down modified bitumen material roofing material was installed. Sorry, I skimmed through the posts too quick.

The seams of the membrane should have a steady continuous flowage of bitumen bleeding out from the overlapped edges. The sloppy application of roofing cement around the pipes pitch pocket reflects a disdain for aesthetic final appearances. If appearance were the only consideration, this could be touched up with excess granules the manufacturer sells. Plastic roofing cement is not approved for modified bitumen applications, unless some manufacturers provide an MB roofing cement.

Regarding the previous statement about crunchy decking, I have personally been on roofs where the sheathing seemed sound under foot and showed no signs of deterioration---until after the torch down product was applied. 

Post a photo of the perimeter edge detail and how it was terminated or sealed, and I can make an observation about that. Most importantly, does the roof have enough of a slope/pitch to allow the water to run off unimpeded or will it pond the water on the low slope/flat roof surface? 

Ed


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Yellow pages???OH No!!:w00t: 
I see you had no choice, but for future, the only companies in the yellow pages are huge companies with high overhead (like you said) and people desperate for work because they can't get their own work.

Anyways, that does NOT look like a finished product.

If the inspector passes it, I afraid to say you'll just have to live with it. Maybe the guy with the bid $200 higher would have been better.

Never take the lowest bid. I'm sure most here will agree.

Sorry I can't help you more, and I appreciate you accepting my critisism.


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

Hi Ed, I know he used a spray can on the drip edge, but here's some pics on how he overlapped, there is some mod. bit oozzing out of some of the edges but on most of them it's not (just in places its oozing). I know the pitch is less than a 2:12 but if you don't mind, I will post a couple more pictures (can only post 3 pics at a time). Also, the whole roof is bubbling like tiger stripes, long thin wavy bubbles. Thanks.


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

Here's the ripples and pitch.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

well the edge is wrong,it should of been the membrane then the drip edge then a 10" piece of membrane to strip it in.there needs to be a 1/4-1/2 bead of asphalt along the edges of the laps.the pitch pocket looks bad.
I've been on flat roofs along time and you will have problems with the pipes.we lay the membrane then cement the lead down then a target patch on top.if he used a cheap cement in the pitch pan it'll shrink really fast and you'll develop a leak.I usually build a hood or a cap for them out of sheet metal.
I believe a customer should know what's going on.I have no problem with a customer asking or suggesting.Makes payday alot easier when they are satisfied with your work and understand what and why things have gotten done.If I was you I would arm myself with a few pages of detail specs and have him come back and do it right.as far as I can tell ,you got the shaft.
wherever they have a lap in the membrane you'll notice a little channel going up the entire sheet,it'll leak.I cut the corner off the bottom one so the top sheet lays flat.ripples could be cheap stuff or from him trying to run it straight.they seem to get bigger at the edge so I'd say installation error.
get a trowel and some chaulk go up on the roof and use the trowel along the seams,mark any not that aren't securely adhered.
don't worry about telling him his job,someone needs too.it's your house and you just paid for a new roof.you got some crap thrown on and cement is what's keeping water out right now.as soon as the cement dries and cracks around the pipes it's gonna leak.
real shoddy work.I know my grammer isn't the best ,but my roofing is with some of the best.I do lots of warranty work,it has to be right.speaking of,what kind of warranty did he give you?


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

Thanks Roofwiz, that's what I thought. Yes, I agree I should arm myself with a few pages of detail specs. Umm... where do I start?


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

The material is firestone, firestone what, I don't know. I'll find out what kind of cement he used. His warranty states "all work guaranteed for 7 years". Good idea about the trowel and chalk.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

MJW said:


> Yellow pages???OH No!!:w00t:
> I see you had no choice, but for future, the only companies in the yellow pages are huge companies with high overhead (like you said) and people desperate for work because they can't get their own work.
> 
> Anyways, that does NOT look like a finished product.
> ...


wouldn't the higher priced bid be the ones from the yellow pages?

I'm not the cheapest guy or the most expensive.what I do when I get a call is go ask what they want.How's the timeframe,budget,etc...
explain the situation,give some options and go from there.People don't want a 25 yr second hand shingle and pay for a 40.They want to know why it has to be tore off,why it leaked,why they need ice and water.most people I know have nothing to do with roofing,why would they know about it?explain it to them and price won't be a problem.
I hate it when people judge you by your truck and or your ad.
I've worked for the largest roofing company in the nation before,do you think they were the best?at selling yeah,the office I was in ran 5 production crews of 6 guys on each.Most crews were a million a year each total revenue.40 offices...it adds up.back to the point though,they sold some crap roofs.I've went over 4" saturated bur roofs with a 1/2 fiber board,45mil batten in seam.crap roof.screws will rust out in no time.roof pretty much falls off.they even have you thinking it's thier products...lol,gotta love marketing.the best guy to hire is one you check out yourself.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

KC8466 said:


> The material is firestone, firestone what, I don't know. I'll find out what kind of cement he used. His warranty states "all work guaranteed for 7 years". Good idea about the trowel and chalk.


when I warranty inspected they hated to see my big crayons.It come up missing all the time.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

in his warranty does it state that the product or the workmanship is warratied?see they get you like that,alot of metal roofing comes with a 50yr warranty...lol...just wait.....on the paint.I went on a roof leak once and the woman was getting extremly frustrated when I explained to her that her warranty didn't cover the workmanship and that the repair had to be paid by her.I ended up getting a $20 for gas and a good referance that generated me alot of work.


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

This is a direct quote from his proposal "All work guaranteed 7 years" My interpretation is that is referring to his labor.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

he may of stripped the edge in right,it's hard to tell.there should be roofing membrane under it,the drip nailed down then another on top.

you should ask him when you see him again what exactly that covers and if he could add it there on both contracts.Firestone I know carries a warranty on thier products.If you go to the firstone website I believe you can download specs.they are all about the same,roofing goes on then the details and flashings.


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

Is the underlayment right? He nailed down the drip edge over the underlayment, sprayed the top of the drip edge with something brown and torched down the membrane. Does the edge over the gutters look correct?


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

no it's wrong.that's just a base sheet the actual roofing should go down on eveything,then the boots,edges and then you cut a 3x3 or 4x4 patch to go on top of that.or a long strip 10" wide for the drip.
it would be: base-roofing-pipe lead-patch.

the brown was primer.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

that last pic of the metal is bad.You are gonna have some problems there for sure.sorry about being the bad news guy.Atleast you can still do something,maybe.I'd find out exactly what product he put on then find the spec sheet for it.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*Manufacturers Specifications*

Once and for all, you need to obtain a copy of either the NRCA low slope roofing manual or the actual manufacturers specs for this product. 

Request from your contractor, the invoice for the purchase of the materials stating which product it is and which supply house sold the product. That supply house should have a copy of the manuals mentioned previously. The cost per roll should be somewhere between $ 50 to $ 90 per one square roll. Maybe, in FL it is higher due to Katrina and other roofing material shortages.

Verify what manufacturers product it is, as many roofers universally use some terms, such as "Rubberoid", because that may be the brand that has the best name recognition in your area. 

The warranty from the manufacturer will be a product "materials only" warranty, not an installation warranty. That is unless your contractor has gone through the procedure to become an authorized or certified installer. Even if that is the case, the manufacturers tend to not offer any workmanship warranties on residential applications. 

When you mention that the contractor "sprayed " on something onto the metal edge flashings, I must presume that the product was an asphalt primer to allow proper adhesion of the APP modified bitumen torch down roofing product to the sheet metal. Typically, unless this product has differing properties, the primer should be applied and be left exposed to the environment for between 24-48 hours for proper adhesion, which would allow the solvents contained in the primer to "flash" out. Honestly, most contractors do not allow for this flash time because it would delay their installation and completion of the job.

The wrinkles or buckled areas are from the weight of the mod bit rolls sliding down, (Down, meaning towards the lowest point of the roof toward the gutter eave edges). As the rolls of material are being continuously heated up the bitumen melts from the initial solid state to a maleable liquid. Gravity tends to slide the rolls downward. Attempts at making corrections as one is torching and kicking out the roll create the buckled sections you note. Slower movement during the application process would minimize this effect. Unless you are in a high thermal schock region, extreme cold surface temps to extreme high temps or reverse, this will probably not affect the performance. That is, UNLESS the overlapping seams also contain these air pockets diminishing their seam adhesion strength.

Others pointed out before that the membrane should be under the perimeter edge metal and also a stripped in piece on top of the metal and that is correct. My personal belief is that the membrane should overlap down onto the fascia on the rake edges and behind the gutter onto the fascia with an additional piece stripped in from the roof surface into the gutter trough. This overlapped material on the fascias would then receive a termination bar, usually an extruded 1 1/4" high piece of aluminum, with pre-punched oval slots spaced every 6" to 12" to enable a wood grip screw to hold the bar and the membrane properly in place and oval in shape to allow for expansion and contraction. Both methods are typical of mod bit manufacturers accepted methods of terminating along perimeter edges. This prevents any perimeter leakage from the membrane becoming detached from the currently installed metal gravel stop style drip edges from a seperation from the asphaltic primer.

Also, I would check out the soldered joints on the lead plumbing vent pipe soil stack flashings to see if they have melted from the torching of the membrane. Also, were the lead flanges primed with the asphalt primer before bonding the mod bit membrane to them?

Regarding the pitch pockets filled with plastic roof cement, the roofing supply house should stock and sell "pitch pocket sealer" which pours out in a liquid state and then solidifies into a rubbery like texture.

The most serious aspect of your entire project is if the roof was installed over deteriorated decking. 

Try to work with your contractor in a freindly, non-accusatory manner to attempt to resolve these issues. You are not in immediate danger of interior leakage, but if problems arise down the road, you will wish you ensured corrective measures were taken at this time. The leverage that you currently have is the final payment. If the contractor is willing to respond and satisfy your functional concerns rather than minor aesthetic concerns, you can make arrangements for payments to be issued.

If he and she do not, then you may have to hire another contractor or consultant to inspect and advise in person. If no satisfaction is arrived at, then you may have to seek legal advise.

Ed


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

what he said.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*Oh My!!!*

Did I get carried away, or what???!!!



> what he said.


Even I did not appreciate reading such a long winded explanation.

Sorry, I didn't mean to write a technical manual about modified bitumen. 

Do your homework better next time and ask to see "similar" projects as the one you are thinking of contracting out.

The damn problem with torch down APP modified bitumen is that anybody that can use a torch to burn leaves thinks that they are qualified to be an expert in proper low slope/flat roofing applications. 

Ed


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

shoot no I liked it.I come to this site to learn.If I can help,even better.
I'm pretty new to the contracting side of the biz but I've been a applicater for a long time.I'm all about learning something from everyone.There are alot of really knowledgeable folks on here,that have helped me by thier responses on other posts.so keep up the long winded responses I read them.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Before I posted, I already had figured out that you would appreciate the details RoofWiz. It's just that I did not intend on climbing on a soap box for such length. 

The most common errors are in the little details if the applicator is not properly trained or else they just don't give a damn.

Ed


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

training...lol..yeah I remember that."carry these buckets till you're good at it"...lol...ahhh the good ole days.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

*Long time ago now*

Don't bend your elbows when your carrying that hot stuff rookie. Boy, my arms still ache thinking back to carrying 2 buckets of pitch all the way across the Avon wharehouse in Glenview, back and forth all day long. Too many ramp set ups over all the expansion joints to use a lugger. The hot was thicker than dope by the time I got it all the way to the mop bucket.

Ed

Excuse me. I didn't mean to turn this into a "this is the way we did things back in the good old days bucko" thread. It might make an interesting topic for another thread though.


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

Ed! Wow, last time I got that much advise I had to pay for it. LOL.
This forum is great, alot of knowledge at your fingertips, I really appreciate it. The product he used is Firestone and I downloaded all the specs for Asphalt SBS & APP (not sure which one he used) from Firestone's website. They have installation instructions too, but its so technical it's like reading a foreign language. I presume the other NRCA maual will be beyond my comprehension as well (hopefully there will be lots of pictures). Getting back to what really is my main concern as you pointed out, the decking. On the other side of the house there is an addition that is tongue and groove. The section over the porch had alot of damage.























My question is concerning the boards he left in between the eaves and the rest of the bad wood. The paint came off in sheets and the wood was wet. After the wood dried, I noticed a small portion of dry rot in the corner. Are these boards going to be okay and because they were wet when the roof was applied will there be problems? Also, the repairs stopped at the end of the tongue and groove above the front door and started again near the peak along the eaves. The area in between feels soft to me. The crunchy area I spoke about earlier in the thread is also on this tongue and groove section but about 3' in towards the center of the roof (I felt it under the base sheet before it was capped and torched).


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

*The inspection failed*

The inspector showed up this morning leaving his truck running and pen in hand ready to sign off on the final until my husband & I convinced him to take a look first. He said he didn't like the "mouths" in the seams, and the pooling. I asked him about the bleed out on the seams and all the stuff we've discussed so far and he pretty much blew me off. After all that, he says "you could of done this yourself", I said, yeh but its torch down and he replied "oh, is it?"  I can see I'm going to need a professional inspection by a roofer. A guy just did two houses down the street just like mine with torch down and his work looks great. I called him and he's coming today some time to advise us. I have the specs but this roofer we hired is a bully and know it all. He'll just start bellowing he's got 30 years experience ..blah blah blah. In fact, the inspector said that when he finds out he failed him he's going to start yelling at him and then us. You know it's just a small, simple 8 square roof...no valleys to flash, nothing fancy, only one layer of shingles to remove. I just thought how can someone with a license for 20 years screw this up. Lesson learned.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

KC Your a home owner fishing information on a contractor site. Thats not cool. I have been a roofer for 20 years and I'll be damned if an inspector or " do it yourselfer" is gonna tell me whats what. Inspectors dont climb ladders for insurance reasons. You fed that inspector information you learned on this site to steer him in your favor. Thats why your "30 year roofer" is angry and I dont blame him. Maybe your research was an attempt to do this task yourself instead of hiring out and now I bet you dont want to pay this man for his work because he failed this inspection.
I always say a little knowledge is dangerous even if your intentions were good.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

still doesn't excuse the job he did.would you put that roof on like that and sleep good at night.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

tom m said:


> KC Your a home owner fishing information on a contractor site. Thats not cool. I have been a roofer for 20 years and I'll be damned if an inspector or " do it yourselfer" is gonna tell me whats what. Inspectors dont climb ladders for insurance reasons. You fed that inspector information you learned on this site to steer him in your favor. Thats why your "30 year roofer" is angry and I dont blame him. Maybe your research was an attempt to do this task yourself instead of hiring out and now I bet you dont want to pay this man for his work because he failed this inspection.
> I always say a little knowledge is dangerous even if your intentions were good.


That is also what I dont like about some of the contractor replies. There are contractors willing to knock some persons work in an effort to appear more proffesional and more knowledgeable.
I question some of the details that are described by so called roofing experts here.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

it gets me when contractors have been doing it 30 years and still don't have a clue on what's right.They stand behind the 30yrs,that's 30yrs ago things change.I see it everyday.There is nothing wrong with a homeowner checking things out.it's thier house.if you did the job right what's the problem?people that don't know how to deal with a customer don't need to be in biz.
I'm not trying to make myself look better.I really don't care it's just the internet.Everything I said could be checked out.
It doesn't take a genius to see the things are done wrong.
everyone on here that has been at this for awhile that time on the job isn't crap.I've worked with people that have been laborers for 30 yrs.they make think they know how it works,lol well.
I don't care what kind of roofing you put on,epdm,tpo,pvc,duralast,metal,torchdown,peel and stick,bur,you get the point.the roofing goes on.....then the flashings


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## troubleseeker (Sep 24, 2006)

I guess that depends on the motive of the roofer. Is the dry in a precaution against the threat of wet weather before the repairs can be done, or it a sign that he intends to cover over the bad wood? Unfortunately a far too common practice with roofers who consider it a successful job if they can tear off and re-roof before anyone sees any problems.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

tom m said:


> KC Your a home owner fishing information on a contractor site. Thats not cool. I have been a roofer for 20 years and I'll be damned if an inspector or " do it yourselfer" is gonna tell me whats what. Inspectors dont climb ladders for insurance reasons. You fed that inspector information you learned on this site to steer him in your favor. Thats why your "30 year roofer" is angry and I dont blame him. Maybe your research was an attempt to do this task yourself instead of hiring out and now I bet you dont want to pay this man for his work because he failed this inspection.
> I always say a little knowledge is dangerous even if your intentions were good.



Maybe you should have found a contractor like me that will let you observe AND even let you see the installation manual.I welcome the chance to educate the homeowner so I don't have to come back on another's job and tell them it's time for a 'new' job already.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

That job was done sloppy and flashings would have been different on my job, but does it leak. For 7 years I had zero leaks on my work and still dont receive call backs, I had about 3 after that when I let some of my guys do things without my supervision. You cant have eyes in back of your head. Roofing is a lousey business, break your ass for a days pay and be on the hook for it years later. Make no money if weather is bad etc.... It takes alot for 2x to be rotten even if the sheathing were destroyed. You can have softness in the top of the rafter for an inch but it will still accept a 7 or 8 box nail safely and then dry out fine. You definetly dont go changing all the rafters. I dont know the language of the contract or the severity of the lumber but many people think your trying to sell them expensive un needed repairs. I have computer geeks telling me how I SOULD HANG A DOOR ACCORDING THIER BOOKS even though the wall is racked. My point is dont go into his office an examine how he programs his job.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

the flashings are sloppy?they are wrong.why would a computer geek be reading a door installation book?trying to say something?
don't beat around the bush.the guy doesn't know how to apply torchdown,if you do work like that then neither do you.



ROOFING-FLASHIJNG-TARGET PATCH.anybody that knows how to do it knows that.Doing something for years doesn't make it right.
your door example...there are still proper ways to hang it.where do you fasten a door when you install it?
you don't need eyes in the back of your head if your guys are trained.

and my point is if you don't know then don't do.
any idiot can watch someone and think they know.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Since your so sensitive what is you experience level? Did you write this contract that left the customer so confused? Dont ever question my proffessionalism you are probably young and think you got it all figured out. Guys come and go in roofing business that what make it so hard. Trained guys dont stay unless you can afford to put them on salary during winter months. Even then its still a young man job and the guys dont always show up and when they do they think there doing you a favor. Its the least respected trade in construction. If you dont go full force roofing you will probably start doing other trades along the way for steadier, cleaner and less back breaking work.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

i agree that picking up another trade is helpful when it's slow.
I'm not sensitive,I can't stand for someone to base all roofing off what they know cause they've been doing it 30 years.
most guys that are good don't work for mr.fly by night anyway.I am good.I have a wall full of awards from several differant companies in several differant areas.not selling that's for sure.
I grew up roofing with my dad and grandpa,we did and do the best that we can.people that don't use the book atleast for a training aide,aren't really worried about the big picture.put it on and get paid.
I can tell from the way you defend this contractor that you must be one just like him.
least respected trade??you've got to be joking.i get mad respect for the work I do.I am told all the time about how they couldn't or wouldn't do it.do a good job show up everyday and you'll get some respect.


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## RooferJim (Mar 6, 2006)

Roofing is a great trade, its recesion proff, there is and will always be plenty of work. Yes at the right price, with respect and the ability to take care of your people. Sure there are plenty of fly by night guys but there gone soon enough and value buyers see right thru there BS even though they will always be cheaper. Have no desire to do anything but Roofing.

Have a Great Roofing Day !

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I am not defending anyone, I am defending experience. I too am a third generation roofer but I evolved to many other systems and many other trades. My biggest problem in business is I dont trust anyone else enough to do quality work. In business you have to treat every job as if it were your own and learn when to look away. In order to stay busy you need to accomadate all types of personalitys the picky customers and the careless customers. Many are not going on that roof. They can care less how it looks as long as it dont leak. So I get a little irrated when people who work in resturants, car sales or on computers etc.. watch flip this house or get online help for something and think they can get rich being there own GC. Do you call a health inspector when you go to a resturaunt ? Get my point here. I wasnt trying to offend anyone but some people look for an excuse not to pay. Who do you think is more respected the Const. Mgr in a suit or the roofer with ripped jeans and tar on the elbows?


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

i see what you are saying


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Crap job all the way around. Sorry, but you got taken.


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

*Roof leaks*

You probably heard about the rain in South Florida today, just thought you might be interested to know the roof does in fact leak. Found a couple of wet spots on my ceiling this afternoon. It's leaking under the area by the pitch pocket (the area that had all the dry rot before). It looks like it's leaking about a foot above the penetration and a foot below it and maybe a foot in towards the middle. I did notice after examing my photos that the cap sheet is directly on top of the base sheet (seam on seam). I spoke with someone at Firestone who told me this would be a problem it should be offset at least 3". As bad as that area was before with all the dry rot it had it never leaked through to the ceiling before.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

The water should never make it past the waterproofing membrane...if the guys at Firestone had a friggin clue about real-world roofing, they would have told you this... Once again, sorry you got screwed.


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

*Need Repair advice*

My roofing contractor is willing to redo the penetration flashings according to the manufacturer's installation instructions. I've been told he will cut out the areas around the penetrations, remove the boots that were improperly installed, patch the membrane with a piece of SBS then...can he reuse the lead boots? I don't know what he has planned, I just want to ensure it will be done right, any suggestions? By the way I would like to thank you guys (Roof Wiz, Ed the roofer, etc) arming myself with the manufacturer specs really did the trick. I've also read the NRCA's online manual for membrane roofing systems which was very helpful, but I don't have the repair manual, and it's not available online. By the way, if this was your brand new roof would you accept five patches? What do think would be fair? 

Thanks again for all your help, I have the greatest admiration and respect for those who are masters of their trade.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Installing a target patch is a correct procedure for the base of the pipe penetrations. I would not reuse the lead flashings and if he does the application the way I learned and successfully have done since then, you do not need the lead flashing. The modified gets installed in a 2 step process around the pipe. I don't know the current Firestone approved method, but the NRCA manual online will have pipe penetration details.

The most important thing from your earlier posts, if I remember correctly, was that the roof was applied over crunchy/soft wood decking. Has that problem been addressed?

Ed


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

patches are fine if done right.sounds like he's being a real stand up guy about it,that's rare in this biz.


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## the roofman (Feb 14, 2007)

hi guys just came back from florida last march,worked wilma in miami, they love there flat roofs looking like crap if them miami dades inspector dont see some tar ooozing u can count that torch down not passing. these people r paying big money for there roof to look like crap but what do ya do? also worked charlie down in punta gorda and port charlotte .they also wanted to see alot of tar. same goes for shingles tar ooozing out of valley gables eaves un real.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

I usually get the granules to match the roof then spread them on all the exposed asphalt and cement.nice and thick too,makes the roof look better and protects the asphalt from uv,a little atleast.
some folks slap them on and some of us do it right.


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## roofwiz74 (Oct 27, 2006)

I'm not aiming my remarks at anyone in particular.
I take for granted at times that the things I do everyday I learned at a early age.My father was teaching me as a kid everything he had learned in his 30 or so years,from my grandpa.so I guess I had a headstart.I was always taught you never know enough and do it right,once.


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

*Here's one for the portfolio*

I don't think I ever showed you the finished product. These look like before pictures but this is my new roof. The inspectors said "it's the worst they have ever seen", lucky me. The scraps on the the peak really take the cake.
















Ed, I don't know what to do about the crunchy plyboard, we'll have to see when they get here. It still feels firm, hopefully it's just marginal delamination. 

Roofwiz, I was raised the same way, do it once and do it right. As far as my contractor is concerned...let me rephrase my statement. He is willing to come back at the request of a local licensing authority.

Roofman, as far as the bleed out is concerned, the Sarasota county inspector told me you really don't have to have it, but he asked the contractor to fix the eight or nine areas you can get your fingers under with a touch up torch. 



I'm concerned about my edges (strip flashing), Firestone shows a couple of methods, one is strip flashed and the other is field sheet flashed. I don't know if the method depends on the type of metal edge you're using or if it is just an alternative method. I'm not able to get the manufacturer's instructions and my edging doesn't resemble what is in the manufacturer's details (gravel stop or anchor). Any suggestions?


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

KC,

At some point you are either going to have to accept and be satisfied with the job or have it redone if you feel the end product does not meet standards.

By re-examining every little cosmetic defect, you are only beating a dead horse from this point on.

The black spots are cosmetic and could have new granules applied if moderately heated.

The top of the ridge on the far point of the photo sho the 4 " selvage edge exposed. That should be capped off with the granulated product. It may be common practice to use the left over cut off pieces for the ridge covering to save on the waste factor.

If the inspector is saying it is the worst job he has ever seen, is he stil passing it?

Too many people can easily criticize other peoples work post mortem, and none of us know the conditions he actually had to work with.

So, accept it or don't, but dont make this the never ending roof story, for your own sake.

Ed


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

Ed, The cosmetic details are the very least of my concerns. The inspector has not passed the roof and he's the one who is having the contractor replace the scraps and put down granules. I think scraps might have been okay if they were wider, he used a straight edge, and didn't use the piece with the exposed edge. Maybe it's not just a cosmetic issue in this area.

The conditions he was working under were optimal. Sunny in the low 70's, no wind. 

As far as the never ending roofing story I couldn't agree more, no one wants to move on more than me. I don't know what's going on in my city but they were willing to fix the cosmetic stuff and not the flashing issues until I cited the Florida building code to them. The first inspector had passed the dry-in inspection and he shouldn't have. Had he caught the flashing issue then, it would have saved all of us alot of trouble. As it stands now, he has til June when the permit expires to complete the repairs. When the roof passes it's final inspection then I will have the opportunity to accept it or not.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Here's a white modbit that I did myself. This is how it should look.


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## KC8466 (Jan 16, 2007)

Aron B., Thanks for the photos, looks like a job well done. It helps to see the target patches, strip flashing and what the bleed out should look like.


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