# Property Managers Altering Estimates



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

SectorSecurity said:


> Seems like a watermark may be handy In this case.


Easy to remove.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

SectorSecurity said:


> Seems like a watermark may be handy In this case.


I can remove those....


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

Time to go old school 3 page carbon copy.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

One thing that I do in order to make a document un-editable is to print it at 97-98% of it's original size and then I'll scan it as a PDF. That way Adobe reader can only see it as JPG and not as a word document that can be edited. 

There are some pretty good PDF editing programs out there that will allow you to put new text on top of existing text, however, because I print the document a little smaller and scanning it makes it a little distorted, they'll never be able to match the font size or boldness of the characters and it will look like it's been modified.

But going back to the OP's question, it is VERY illegal and it becomes a huge tax liability for you. If they submit an inflated price in your name, they collect the extra money tax-free leaving you to pay the difference. 

The law in most states generally prohibits anyone from sub-contracting work out to the same company that hired them in order to circumvent any type of licensing or regulations. 

Personally I wouldn't care if it was legal or not. Just by the fact that they are doing this would make me want to RUN away from this situation.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

tedanderson said:


> One thing that I do in order to make a document un-editable is to print it at 97-98% of it's original size and then I'll scan it as a PDF. That way Adobe reader can only see it as JPG and not as a word document that can be edited.
> 
> There are some pretty good PDF editing programs out there that will allow you to put new text on top of existing text, however, because I print the document a little smaller and scanning it makes it a little distorted, they'll never be able to match the font size or boldness of the characters and it will look like it's been modified.


I can make it perfect.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

tedanderson said:


> That way Adobe reader can only see it as JPG and not as a word document that can be edited.
> 
> There are some pretty good PDF editing programs out there that will allow you to put new text on top of existing text, however, because I print the document a little smaller and scanning it makes it a little distorted, they'll never be able to match the font size or boldness of the characters and it will look like it's been modified.


\
Just run PDF editing software with OCR, then there are a couple other PDF editors that can do magic - remove water marks that aren't a separate layer, etc. Convert to Word, you name it - no PDF is safe. I've edited every single PDF one way or another.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

'Trust your gut' like mentioned. 
If you don't feel good about something then don't do it or allow it..


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

I wouldn't worry about their end but I would be sure to keep my copies, and printed out. Which I do anyway. What they do with their customers isn't your business.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Here's the scary part:

End of year tax time. Your "altered" bids can now be used to 1099 you. Making you the one responsible for taxes on potentially tens of thousands of dollars you never received.

If they're shady hiding $ from customers, you better believe there's a possibility they will be shady come tax time.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

I don't see the problem. You should have your bids, invoices and payments to back up your story.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Driftweed said:


> Here's the scary part:
> 
> End of year tax time. Your "altered" bids can now be used to 1099 you. Making you the one responsible for taxes on potentially tens of thousands of dollars you never received.
> 
> If they're shady hiding $ from customers, you better believe there's a possibility they will be shady come tax time.


I can see how you might think that, but your receivables would negate that as an issue... and their payable's wouldn't be able to manifest it into something it's not in a 1099...


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KAP said:


> I can see how you might think that, but your receivables would negate that as an issue... and their payable's wouldn't be able to manifest it into something it's not in a 1099...


If he is not a corp or llc it would be a problem. He has to submit the 1099's as misc income and that would be hard if they aren't reporting the same number. He would need to file for a correction.

Either way it could be a hassle to deal with.

Since you don't have to issue 1099's to corps, if he is a corp, their padded 1099 would matter.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> If he is not a corp or llc it would be a problem. He has to submit the 1099's as misc income and that would be hard if they aren't reporting the same number. He would need to file for a correction.
> 
> Either way it could be a hassle to deal with.
> 
> Since you don't have to issue 1099's to corps, if he is a corp, their padded 1099 would matter.


You can come up with all sorts of scenarios but one of the reasons 1099's are issued is verification... 

People make mistakes, whether intentional or by human error... it wouldn't make it past filing and the onus would be on the ones changing your bid to enrich themselves and to prove their 1099 which would be hard to do without funds being paid...

Being that he would have records of his bid submittal in addition to what he was actually paid, it would be much more of an issue for the company (not to mention fines and/or imprisonment) trying to commit the fraud for 10-15%... 

It's hard to envision why they would invite that chaos into their business, especially when the IRS is involved, but never say never...


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KAP said:


> You can come up with all sorts of scenarios but one of the reasons 1099's are issued is verification...
> 
> People make mistakes, whether intentional or by human error... it wouldn't make it past filing and the onus would be on the ones changing your bid to enrich themselves and to prove their 1099 which would be hard to do without funds being paid...
> 
> ...


It's not a scenario is the scenario. It's either or. Either he's a Corp and it won't matter or he's not and it might. 

Regardless he needs to part ways.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

So at end of year, he has records showing $50k income from this client. They send a 1099 for 60k...

Life just got fun because now he has to deal with the hassle of proving it. Sure, he is right, but now he has to track down all that paperwork, etc...costing him time he could be making $ doing other things.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

hdavis said:


> \
> Just run PDF editing software with OCR, then there are a couple other PDF editors that can do magic - remove water marks that aren't a separate layer, etc. Convert to Word, you name it - no PDF is safe. I've edited every single PDF one way or another.


The whole point of protecting the PDF with watermarks and other methods mentioned is to prevent the recipient from simply typing an extra zero or changing 5 into a 7 with a few keyboard strokes and mouse clicks. 

Rather than doing the OCR thing and converting it to Word, you could just as easily re-type the entire thing from scratch. At the end of the day, if the invoice that I sent looks different from the one that the 3rd party receives, the middle man is going to have some serious explaining to do.
:whistling


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Driftweed said:


> So at end of year, he has records showing $50k income from this client. They send a 1099 for 60k...
> 
> *Life just got fun because now he has to deal with the hassle of proving it.* Sure, he is right, but now he has to track down all that paperwork, etc...costing him time he could be making $ doing other things.


Actually, he doesn't assuming he keeps accurate records... the one providing the 1099 as an expensed item is responsible for proving it... assuming you do expense accounting, you already have the payments logged and method of payment and where it was credited... 

Very easy to match up what they say they paid you versus what they actually paid... a simple email showing your accounting will yield you a corrected 1099... if they don't provide it, it's on them... you file anyway..

A 1099 should be for verification... you're records should already be accurate...


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## Alan M (Jan 18, 2015)

i think that this is a very serious issue that all of us need to be aware of . it can affect us all . everytime we sent an invoice or estimate to a middle man or contractor we are exposing ourselves to them doing this. 
im sure this happens a lot more that we think. 
we all hope that they are honest and trust worthy but we don't know

it is frightening to read how insecure pdfs etc are , I hadnt realised how easy it is 



one small story I remember . a lad I know gave an estimate to a builder on a house. 
he met a mutual friend of the homeowner a few days later and they said the HOs were shocked by the estimate and thought it was extremely high. turns out that the builder added a lot to the estimate but claiming it was the sub being high priced . 
im not sure of the figures but I think he added 30% to the estimate and then his mark up. 
long story short HO heard back and fired builder and hired the sub direct


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## tucnasam (Feb 1, 2016)

Sounds to me like he wants to delete your prices, but then show another contractor or under the table guy to get a cheaper bid. I worked under the table from time to time from 16-25. I had one realtor give me two bids from other legit handyman companies. There was no price, but scope of work and their letter head.

They wanted me to bid the work. I most likely was going to get screwed by them. I didn't even proceed because I went with my gut and the realtor was a dikbag. Actually now that I remember. I was standing outside with him when a Mexican tenants 12 year old kid came out and asked the Reator "when his Dad was going to get Paid." So sad, I doubt he ever did.

I did not do bid work as an under the table guy. I certainly was not going to bid against legit companies. Needless to say. I love paying taxes now.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

tedanderson said:


> Rather than doing the OCR thing and converting it to Word, you could just as easily re-type the entire thing from scratch.


Depends on the PDF. Typing is easy, formatting may not be. The whole point of the software is to be able to do whatever you want with little effort.


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