# How soon have you put down hydro ban after installing a mud bed?



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I'm sorry, Schluter is _not_ the rule maker when it comes to tile installations. ANSI and TCNA have _way_ more pull as far as I'm concerned. Like John asked, what thinset manufacturer will warrant that method?

Chemistry is science and you cannot alter that.


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## Don_h (Aug 11, 2011)

Your right, shluter is not the rule maker, but they make their warranty, so if you use their product under their conditions, good on you. Tcna also says tile over plywood, what setter will warrant that method. I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but brian's comment and method are correct, there is no tile police, but I will and have flood tested any shower upon request. Talk to me after five days of setting walls and someone dropped a screw under the cardboard you've been working working over, passed the flood test already, carry on or fix it? To each their own, just like a vapor barrier or a pre slope.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Of course Schluter will suggest that method. If the mud bed fails, it's not their issue. They are only saying Kerdi won't fail. 

If you have a mud bed failure for whatever reason, do you honestly think Schluter is going to pay you to R&R it? :no:


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## Don_h (Aug 11, 2011)

I don't expect the painter to rebuild the house if it falls over, but he is usually the last to touch it. I think you could argue that bostik would warrant the mentioned method for Kerdi since they make ditra set, and suggest schluter methods for their installation guidelines. How many guys put felt paper under their dry packs? How many put lath or chicken wire in their packs? I think there is quite a few reasons that a warranty may not be honored, but to say that someone's method is wrong because you don't use or understand it is silly. This thread has veered way off course, but asking a thin set manufacture to warrant your work is like asking the tire company to warrant your truck.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Don_h said:


> You can, and I have put Kerdi on a dry pack same day. Shluter not only endorses this method but does it at their classes. Gobs was there and didn't raise a stink about it. I trust the "tile budda". As for three days, that's crazy, for years tile has been set on mud as you go, water mist and thin set dust is just a new method, used to be set in a wet mud. I will gladly flood test any Kerdi pan I do same day, if I can Kerdi cardboard and fill that with water in two hours, then your pan will survive. I personally hate putting Kerdi down same day, or setting over ditra same day, but it can and is done buy setters everyday, and properly. In cananda the set over plywood, and while it may be a recognized method, it's not my preference.


These types of crazy stories I hear every week online. Funny thing is I just looked into this claim two weeks back. I was told that it's discussed somewhere on the John Bridge forum. I couldn't find it but we certainly don't need false claims like this on Contractor Talk.

By Gobs do you mean Dave Gobis? He is a tile expert that I believe tests for correct installs around the world. If a large hotel say somewhere in the Carribean had it's bathrooms failing and the testing was linked back to installing Kerdi over a fresh mud bed I bet you that "Gobs" would throw the book at them and sight all kinds of errors in the job.

So because your clients don't ask you to flood out your work you don't? How do you possible know they hold water?

Come on people. Phone Schluter - ask the techs yourself. These claims are insane and any setter doing a dry pack and installing Kerdi is doing so in my opinion to accomodate their schedule and pocketbook, not because Schluter says it's OK. 

Schluter in their classes don't even use real thin-set here in BC, it's a mix that can be washed away. I bet the mud bed and Kerdi in the same go was just showing the steps and you where in the bathroom when they said wait 3-28 days. Read your setting material bags for direction and for the love of god call anyone else in this business other than your local "Sales Rep" at Schluter.

Al Andresseen Mapei (604) 345-2192
Michael Getzlaf Laticrete (403) 617-7551

I read online to that Kerdi is Hydrophopic. What a joke.

I read online that Kerdi can make a Vortex Fold. Equally funny.

How about getting Gobis to chime in and say it's OK to set over a fresh mud bed. You can reach Dave here; 

David M. Gobis 
Ceramic Tile Consultant
7630 Douglas Ave
Racine, WI. 53402
262-994-1175

How about getting an email from any local Schluter Rep stating that?

Try Bob Weins or Dale Kempster;

[email protected] 
[email protected]

This business of "Selling Showers" is a lot of times just that "Selling". Tell the people what they want.

I love these claims and it only further proves to me that the business of selling Kerdi showers is "Tell the guys what they want to hear" - that is easy to sell against.

I'll send your comments along to Schluter and Mr. Gobis's head office. I bet Gobis emails you directly if not calls you to tell you to put a sock in it. I need to call Schluter back anyway and find out where my Kerdi Installer number is anyway.

I couldn't find Dave's email online so I Facebooked him. I sent a note to Dale as well. Lets see what the top techs in this business have to say.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Don_h said:


> ...How many guys put felt paper under their dry packs? How many put lath or chicken wire in their packs?...


Your kidding right?

So now we skip the Slip Joint and Diamond Lath.... 

Was that in your training as well? :sad:


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## Don_h (Aug 11, 2011)

John, since you asked, yes I am very certin that Dave will say it is okay, though as I also said, not the best method. I don't see how you can't understand mud set methods. I've talked with schluter reps, I've talked with John bridge, I've talked with many other setters because I am concerned about our trade as a whole as well as my own work. If you put 10 guys in a square room you'll get 10 different ways to install it. I know how to make the "vortex" fold, if you are curious it's called surface tension put some water on top of a penny and you'll surprise yourself, having said that, Kerdi fix or noble seal are amazing products that I recommend and use regularly. 
Also, due to making a few calls on your previous posts, please check with the owners of the phone numbers you are posting, they don't seem to appreciate it, for all other things tile, you have Daves number.
I do agree with you though that companies sure try to market the best or the fastest to sell their product, quite a few installers do the same. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean they are not right, and doing something for X years doesn't mean a thing if you're doing it wrong.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Don please check with someone else other than your local rep.

I'm not sure who complained about me posting a phone number. If it is one of my local reps I'm sure they will call me and ask me to remove it.

If someone in this business wants to tell me XYZ and then not share the info they don't know me very well. If you tell me ABCD I'll let the world know. These various sales reps should be held responsible for their comments and choose them wisley.

The internet makes the world a very small place and claims like this are easy to confirm if true.

Would love to see a video of the Vortex Fold. I'm still waiting for Bob's video or anyone else's for that matter. My daughter's and I myth busted that claim last summer.


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## Don_h (Aug 11, 2011)

I called your local rep, they seem to think that location has a more important say then then the manufacturer, at the end of the day, we deal with the customer and our own warranty. 
You are right, the Internet makes the world small, and what a great thing for us setters to use and exchange ideas. Maybe someone helps us with a problem, or maybe we help them, but to disregard something because we don't do it is silly unless we, and everyone else, knows it is wrong for any number of reasons.
I don't know what experiments you and your daughter run, but I think every tile setter has dunked some wonder board or tried to hold a tire up with thin set, but science has shown the properties of water, schluter is just exploiting it. Take the class with a bunch of other setters, nobody goes there drinking the koolaid, there are some "fun" conversations. Was nice to have Dave ther during mine, good voice of reason.


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## Don_h (Aug 11, 2011)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> Your kidding right?
> 
> So now we skip the Slip Joint and Diamond Lath....
> 
> Was that in your training as well? :sad:


Wow, I missed that earlier, by slip joint do you mean the little line of foam I put around my shower bases before I do my pan? If so then feel free to read my other post that mentioned this, it was part of my training, and the argument between lath and chicken wire rages on, but I use one or the other in every pan I do, but I beleive in setting them in the pan as opposed to stapling them to the floor. Now I know that may seem odd since when I mud walls the lath is stapled over the paper, but I have heard people say that you don't need either on pans, or the foam liner for that matter. But I guess it depends if your 3/1, 4/1, 5/1, or 5/1,1 right, since we all do it the same, and ANSI is a bunch of wasted pages.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Don_h said:


> and ANSI is a bunch of wasted pages.


Well I guess it all makes sense after you say that.

I understand people with experience can and do veer from certain rules from time to time. But it bothers me a bit when such a statement is made. Really? ANSI is a waste? 

If we (as a trade) didn't have some sort of group or governing body, there would be so much bickering about what is right, what works best, etc. Funny thing is, we do have ANSI, TCNA and NTCA and we are _still_ having all this bickering. 

I know even _this_ won't stop this argument but *STRAIGHT FROM THE KERDI INSTALLATION HANDBOOK:*
_"As soon as the mortar bed can be walked upon, waterproofing with the KERDI membrane can begin."

"Prior to setting tile, wait 24 hours minimum before water testing to allow for final set of thin-set mortar and ensure waterproof performance at seams and connections."
_


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

The building paper is the slip joint.

JW


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## Dave Gobis (Feb 9, 2006)

Ok, I got the message. 

First and foremost, I am not the tile police. When I was at CTEF we rented the facility to Schluter and a number of other companies for product demonstrations. I would never comment on the positives or negatives of anything to a paying customer or their clients unless asked. I also would not allow somebody to use the facility if their product did not have merit

TCA and ANSI exist as guidelines. They are augmented and superseded by manufacturer’s instructions. There was no standard for backer boards, thinsets, or waterproofing when they first came out. Once a product shows performance and there is more than one manufacture then the industry looks at a standard to level the playing field.

On Kerdi over dry pack, they are good when you can walk on it. My personal opinion is the next day after the initial shrinkage has occurred with unmodified only.

The polymers in modified thinsets will not will not coalescence when installed under an impervious sheet over a damp substrate. For the same reason a waterproofing such as Hydroban should not be used over a mortar bed for 48 to 72 hours after the mortar has been installed. I have had numerous experiences with both. One was a 297 room do over because the liquid waterproofing was applied the next day. Now that I think about it that was followed by a few hospitals.

I won't be following this thread. Doing tech stuff all day for a living I enjoy life beyond tile.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Maybe that puts some closure to the ridiculous arguments in this thread... :laughing:


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

I sure hope that's the end of it!!


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I appreciate Dave stopping by. But did we really expect him to say anything to the contrary to Schluter's instructions?


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## Don_h (Aug 11, 2011)

angus242 said:


> Well I guess it all makes sense after you say that.
> 
> I understand people with experience can and do veer from certain rules from time to time. But it bothers me a bit when such a statement is made. Really? ANSI is a waste?
> 
> It was called sarcasm, and I don't believe Dave can say anything other then manufactures instructions publicly, kinda a job security thing. I don't care how anyone does their work, but the industry as a whole suffers when jobs fail and people put down vinyl after dealing with a tile job gone bad. What bugs me is when someone is attacked for suggesting an accepted method. I do my pans at the end of the day after prepping walls or whatever else so they can sit over night, but you can do them anyway you would like.


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## Don_h (Aug 11, 2011)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> The building paper is the slip joint.
> 
> JW


Thanks, cleavage membrane where I come from, but good to know.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Dave Gobis said:


> ...On Kerdi over dry pack, they are good when you can walk on it. My personal opinion is the next day after the initial shrinkage has occurred with unmodified only....


Thanks for stopping by Dave. The shrinkage is an excellent point and I would think a freshly Kerdi'd shower would be stressed when this shrinkage occurs - at the seam connections, if the Kerdi was installed the same day.

Yet another reason in my opinion to do the seams with Kerdi Fix. To use folded corners instead of factory ones and/or to use a product like Mapei's new T2 (still not out) that is designed not to shrink. I have noticed slight shrinkage with the Mapecum Fast Setting Screed Mortar but this shrinkage far less than a standard dry pack. With the Mapecum Fast setting mortar you could go into a job at 5:00 AM and bang out your pre-slope by 6:00 and then come back 14-16 hours if you had to and install your membrane. Over fresh work I have been told that rapid sets are recommended and a product like Grani Rapid is ideal. I don't know how many clients would let you come back past 8:00 PM but that would meet the drying requirements.

On most projects I try and get in early and leave my standard drypack jobs a good two weeks before any liquid or membrane. Three days is the earliest I have covered a fresh shower pan with any liquid and we have done two jobs with Nobel TS over Mapecum the next day.

I realize that it is very hard to juggle all the balls in the air and follow every single rule under the sun. The end user needs to understand that these visits and call backs cost money and they should expect to pay more for these extra steps to insure the job is done right.

Outlining the course of construction is a huge selling point for me here in Vancouver. An educated client will not be so quick to go on price point when they understand that it is not possible to build a shower that fast or to meet unrealistic schedules. Someone in a rush will be more open to a Schluter Kit, Proline kit, AKW pan or fiberglass base to streamline the process. When looking at my quote vs the next guy they will question his quote because I have explained the proper procedure. Those jobs that come straight done to price only will not hire me and my crew and most likely get exactly what they pay for.

Installing Hydro Ban, Aqua D, Nobel TS or Kerdi all have slightly different schedules and Kerdi and Nobel TS do offer up a faster process when you map out all the steps.

JW


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> Thanks for stopping by Dave. The shrinkage is an excellent point and I would think a freshly Kerdi'd shower would be stressed when this shrinkage occurs - at the seam connections, if the Kerdi was installed the same day.
> 
> Yet another reason in my opinion to do the seams with Kerdi Fix. To use folded corners instead of factory ones and/or to use a product like Mapei's new T2 (still not out) that is designed not to shrink. I have noticed slight shrinkage with the Mapecum Fast Setting Screed Mortar but this shrinkage far less than a standard dry pack. With the Mapecum Fast setting mortar you could go into a job at 5:00 AM and bang out your pre-slope by 6:00 and then come back 14-16 hours if you had to and install your membrane. Over fresh work I have been told that rapid sets are recommended and a product like Grani Rapid is ideal. I don't know how many clients would let you come back past 8:00 PM but that would meet the drying requirements.
> 
> ...




The shower gospel as far as I'm concerned.


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