# Support beam question



## Aaron (Jun 19, 2005)

Came across this forum tonight and looks like the perfect place to get some expert opinions. I lay tile for a living and this is the first time I have personally had to add support to a floor. I normally skip this part and tell the customer they should have someone else do it. To keep this job I need to do this myself though.

The floor I am tiling does not meet the calculation you do for a tile floor, but it is only off by 1-2 joists since the room is angled. 2 joists span too far and if I add a small beam between them I am fine. Just to be extra safe I am adding it much longer than needed to support even more of the floor though. Space doesn't really matter since it is a crawl space.

Little info on what's needed. Like I said it is in a crawl space. 4 foot crawl space with cement foundation. Plan on using an 8 ft beam and 2 floor jacks to support it. Was originally just going to throw up two 2x12s screwed together, but they would like to use something smaller if possible. What would you guys recommended for the beam? Are there any laminated options out there that would be the equivalent? I would like to overbuild to be extra safe my tile work stays safe.

Also what do you guys recommend putting under the floor jacks so I don't hurt the cement in the crawl space? It won't have to carry the load of the floor, just be snugged up.

Thanks
Aaron


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

For one a 8 ft beam with two supports is shoddy. A floor beam should have supports ever 3 to 4 feet really it depends on load but since you gave bare min.. This should suffice. Also do you plan on putting in concrete piers that contact hard pan?
Most of the time you can use the wall footing but the one in the mid span will need solid contact. Also two 2x12 doesn't equal a 4x12 its more like a 4x10. Another thing no floor jacks use 4x4 pressure treated posts with 2x4 gussetts. Also use A23 or better for 4x4 to pier attachment. This is all for permanent attachment. You don't want to come back when a home inspector calls you a hack if they sell.

Oh and one more thing a crawl space does matter. There is supposed to be 18" from beam to floor. I belive this code dates back to at least CABO. You know before the UBC now the IBC. LOL

Just to make this all easier why don't you add some joist to the over span? Now if the joist span from beam to beam/foundo wall is over spanned them adding beam would strengthen that span.

Hope this helps.


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## Aaron (Jun 19, 2005)

Thanks for the reply..

I will definitely add at least add another floor jack in the middle, they are pretty cheap and this will give me one every 4 ft.


As for putting down concrete piers, that really isn't as option for me. I was hoping putting something directly on top of the cement slab in the crawl space would be enough to spread out the weight. I have seen this done with just multiple sheets of plywood stacked, cut into around 3x3 squares with the jacks over them. Now I have no idea who did this or if it will even work, just seen in done many times over the years. I would think something pressure treated would be down first. What would be my best option?

Lastly, is there something I should use other than two 2x12s? 

Thanks
Aaron


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

You could also build a knee wall 16"oc or whatever your joist spacing is,use pressure treated lumber for this. I used this method to shore up a 2x4 framed roof that was sagging for some 80 years. Just make sure slab is solid at least 4" should be good.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Ok to my best judgment that slab could be a footing with a craw as deap as that its probably hard pan. I would add a 4x8 or 10 and post with 4x4's a 14" 4x4 presssure treated should cost around 15 dollars. a 4x8 beam should cost around 2-3 dollars lineal foot. 8' 2x4 for gussets what 2-3 bucks. 

Also another solution to strengthen the floor would be to add joists 8" O.C. Let me tell you these floors are tough. :cheesygri


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## Aaron (Jun 19, 2005)

Well, If this was my house I would do things different. Frankly though, I don't do this normally as part of my tile installation and don't want to go to the trouble of building a wall in the crawl space. About the most I am willing to do for them is throw up a beam on 3 floor jacks. I have talked to them again and they don't want to have someone else come in and do anything. So basically they want me to throw up the beam with floor jacks somehow or they are forgetting about a tile floor.

So if I am going to just put it on jacks, what would be sufficient to put under them to spread out some of the weight? I will be adding a 3rd jack in the middle.

Thanks


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## shopdust (Apr 9, 2005)

Check with a lumber supplier about LVL (laminated Veneer Lumber). Sounds like you really want to do a first class job, so you might want to think about sistering the other joists with 2"X__". Glue, clamp, nail, move the clamps and nail again. Stagger three rows at 6 to 10 inches, 16p nails are suggested. Any glue approved for subfloor use will be fine. Don't forget to glue the top of the sistered 2X's.


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## Aaron (Jun 19, 2005)

shopdust said:


> Check with a lumber supplier about LVL (laminated Veneer Lumber). Sounds like you really want to do a first class job, so you might want to think about sistering the other joists with 2"X__". Glue, clamp, nail, move the clamps and nail again. Stagger three rows at 6 to 10 inches, 16p nails are suggested. Any glue approved for subfloor use will be fine. Don't forget to glue the top of the sistered 2X's.



Unfortunately sistering isn't an option, or I would just do that since it is really only a few joists that are too long. But it is in a weird angled crawl space with ducting, wires, and pipes in the way. A beam is really the easiest option and will do the job fine, my only real concern was what to put under the 3 floor jacks.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Aaron said:


> I was hoping putting something directly on top of the cement slab in the crawl space would be enough to spread out the weight. I have seen this done with just multiple sheets of plywood stacked, cut into around 3x3 squares with the jacks over them...I would think something pressure treated would be down first.


I don't think the idea of transferring loads to non-structural concrete slabs is ever a first class idea - that being said...
I've seen the plywood idea used on numerous occassions in temporary applications. Typically the mat is 30" square (3 pieces per 4x8 sheet) and about 4" thick (the stiffening developed by thickness precludes point loading of the pad). The sheets are always oriented so that the laminate direction changes with each layer. I've seen 90 ton truck cranes succesfully use this method to protect 4" thick asphalt paving. In your case, three 30" square pads will reduce a 5 ton beam load to a ground force of less than 4psi. I would think PT plywood is appropriare throughout the pad.


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

My idea with adding wall would distribute loads much the same as the plywood idea, since this is supporting midspan your realy designing for live loads,if you were supporting a bearing wall neither of these methods would be appropriate.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

I will not further help you on your hack ways. Git-R-Done


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## Aaron (Jun 19, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> I will not further help you on your hack ways. Git-R-Done



Well.. That was unnecessary. Simply not replying to the thread would be what a normal person who isn't an ass would do.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Aaron said:


> Well.. That was unnecessary. Simply not replying to the thread would be what a normal person who isn't an ass would do.


Well what if said I have this tile job and went on to say I am going to use turds for thinset and silly putty for grout. LOL


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## HLCbuild (Jul 8, 2005)

*Lvl*

Aaron,

The reply using the LVL is on the right track. These are plywood beams, 1-3/4" thick and we usually double them up (use 2 side by side nailed together.) They are EXTREMELY strong so you could use (2) 7-1/2" LVLs and get the same or more bending stress as the 2x12s with less height. Also, 8 ft is not too long a span. I've used 30 ft LVLs to hold up a roof with no support in the middle (there were (3) 18" LVLs...). However, the more posts you add, the less weight is applied to the concrete at each post so the more the merrier. Remember, the joists will already support a normal floor load so all you are doing is adding supplementary support for the ceramic tile. Not supporting 40 lb/ft live load. I don't think you're a hack...just someone who wants to do it as good as possible on a budget. Good luck. 

HLCbuild


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Just out of couriosity why would doubling up two 1 3/4" LVL be better than one 4X LVL? Since he think's the cost of a 8x4x12 and 4x4 are costly. LOL Then I am sure LVL's are out of his ballpark.


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## HLCbuild (Jul 8, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> Just out of couriosity why would doubling up two 1 3/4" LVL be better than one 4X LVL? Since he think's the cost of a 8x4x12 and 4x4 are costly. LOL Then I am sure LVL's are out of his ballpark.


Cost wise and strength wise its the same. It is easier to install the 1 3/4 LVLs one at a time. I'm just looking at the best method to use without breaking up the concrete and installing concrete piers.


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## Aaron (Jun 19, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> Just out of couriosity why would doubling up two 1 3/4" LVL be better than one 4X LVL? Since he think's the cost of a 8x4x12 and 4x4 are costly. LOL Then I am sure LVL's are out of his ballpark.


Care to tell me where exactly I said it was "too costly?"

I said I do not want to get into the trouble of building a wall in a crawl space, that is not my trade and me bringing tools I don't use to the job site and crawling in/out of a 4 ft crawl space is not something I want to do. The most I was willing to do was put up a quick beam on some floor jacks.

My post was specific in asking the best way to do this because I have seen it done plenty of times. If you thought it was a bad idea you could simply say "I don't agree with that method" or something else like a civil person could do. But you seem to insist at acting like a little child at every given opportunity.

People like you are of no help to anyone, you think you are so much better. Its a shame when you get on boards like this and act how you do, gives others in the field a bad name. I am sorry I came in here in hopes of getting advice.

Thank you to anyone who took the time to give a real response.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Quick beam and floor jacks. Your a tard also I don't like you. I think you should stick to tiling and stop asking Carps how to do something then tell them what is what.
Floor jacks are for temperary applications. So next time you post something that your not sure of and don't like the real answer keep it to your self. Over spanning jiosts is a real issue if you don't what to take care of it right don't post your git-r-done crap. I am a professional Carpenter you are not. Tile boy. :Thumbs:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

HLCbuild said:


> Cost wise and strength wise its the same. It is easier to install the 1 3/4 LVLs one at a time. I'm just looking at the best method to use without breaking up the concrete and installing concrete piers.


Why the hell you you need LVL for what a 4x8 could do.
For one this guy doesn't know what he is talking about. A 4 foot crawler with a slab poured. in it ok. One he never mentioned that in the first post. In this case I would of posted off the concrete. Not floor jacks. The 3"-4" concrete slabwould probably sufficed this application with the weight load spread out. Yes a 8" footing would be best. But floor jacks that is were tile boy lost me.


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## Aaron (Jun 19, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> Quick beam and floor jacks. Your a tard also I don't like you. I think you should stick to tiling and stop asking Carps how to do something then tell them what is what.
> Floor jacks are for temperary applications. So next time you post something that your not sure of and don't like the real answer keep it to your self. Over spanning jiosts is a real issue if you don't what to take care of it right don't post your git-r-done crap. I am a professional Carpenter you are not. Tile boy. :Thumbs:


How did I tell anyone "what is what"? I simply said what I was capable of doing and what my options are. I never said anything was right or wrong. Since I am not in 3rd grade I can resist calling you names like "tard"

Man you need to grow up and gain some people skills.

But when calling someone else "tard" and other names try to at least say it correctly. "your a tard" That is you're a tard big guy. Also try spell checking your posts. Find it amusing I am the tard but I can spell works like temporary and all the others you misspelled above.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Aaron said:


> How did I tell anyone "what is what"? I simply said what I was capable of doing and what my options are. I never said anything was right or wrong. Since I am not in 3rd grade I can resist calling you names like "tard"
> 
> Man you need to grow up and gain some people skills.
> 
> But when calling someone else "tard" and other names. Try spell checking your posts. Find it amusing I am the tard but I can spell works like temporary and all the others you misspelled above.


Works ok. LOL :Thumbs:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Aaron said:


> How did I tell anyone "what is what"? I simply said what I was capable of doing and what my options are. I never said anything was right or wrong. Since I am not in 3rd grade I can resist calling you names like "tard"
> 
> Man you need to grow up and gain some people skills.
> 
> But when calling someone else "tard" and other names try to at least say it correctly. "your a tard" That is you're a tard big guy. Also try spell checking your posts. Find it amusing I am the tard but I can spell works like temporary and all the others you misspelled above.


Funny I caught you the first time nice post change.


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## Aaron (Jun 19, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> Funny I caught you the first time nice post change.


And your change?

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Works ok. The fact that you used spell checker tells me your a home owner.
***************

Once again you simply don't read what is on your screen. I never said I used a spell checker, because I can spell. I suggested since you cannot spell, you should use a spell checker when slinging insults.


That is a nice comment as well, I guess only homeowners like to appear as if they aren't ignorant when speaking? Nice generalization for your trade.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Touche. 
I stand by what I said. I am done with you.


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## HLCbuild (Jul 8, 2005)

Boys...I think we are off the subject of the thread. Any of the methods will work. Remember, all Aaron is trying to do is add some additional support for the added weight of the tile. No one overspanned the joists for their original floor load.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

HLCbuild said:


> Boys...I think we are off the subject of the thread. Any of the methods will work. Remember, all Aaron is trying to do is add some additional support for the added weight of the tile. No one overspanned the joists for their original floor load.





Aaron said:


> 2 joists span too far and if I add a small beam between them I am fine. Just to be extra safe I am adding it much longer than needed to support even more of the floor though. Space doesn't really matter since it is a crawl space.


I take that as a over span since he never really gave the dimension of lumber and the span of said joists. 2 joists while one might not think is alot is actually 4ft which can be a real nasty sag in the floor.


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## Aaron (Jun 19, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> I take that as a over span since he never really gave the dimension of lumber and the span of said joists. 2 joists while one might not think is alot is actually 4ft which can be a real nasty sag in the floor.


The joists are not really overspanned for anything other than tile. Like I said in the original post:

"The floor I am tiling does not meet the calculation you do for a tile floor, but it is only off by 1-2 joists since the room is angled."

I think the longest joist run was under 16 feet and then since the room is angled the next one is 14 or so and then they keep getting smaller every joists. Material is all 2x10 16OC Douglas fur.

The floor is actually about one of the flatter floors ive seen in an older house. The area over the joists isn't low at all. I also wanted to add the beam because they were considering putting their laundry machines on the wall where the long joists are.

Like HLCBuild said, the beam isn't jacking up the floor and carrying the load of the entire floor. It is just snugged up to give a little more support and make sure it never bounced or anything which could crack the tile.

Normally I would just skip a job when something else is needed that I don't do, but these people had a very poor tile job done before in another room and when they got this job quoted no one even checked the subfloor. I would like to help them out, but they don't want to get someone else to do anything under the floor and the most I would be willing to do is get a beam and jack it up for support.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

From a pure code standpoint, almost anything Aaron would do would meet code. If the original joist spans met the prevailing codes, anything he builds underneath is considered non load bearing, even though some load may be transferred. We all know that the span tables for a tiled floor are more strict than code minimum span tables. What he's doing is no different than what a first floor non load bearing perpendicular partition would do in 2 story slab on grade construction.


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## WDA (Apr 8, 2005)

Aaron,

Besides this kind of BS Banter being everything I hate about the trades and construction..everybody's great..everyone is a 'proffessional' (without any Professionalism I would add)..everyone else is substandard..yadayadayada. You got slammed for just tryin' to go a little over beyond the scope of your trade-gheez you could have been a real hack and just did the job as is.

The definitive solution is to pay $500.00 and have an structural engineer to the calcs, legally and in all reality you'd have the proper solution. End of story, I'm sure if there's one floating around...they won't comment because of legalities anyway......

I vote knee wall, stud under every overspanned joist, top plate, bottom plate laid on a double treated 2x8 or 4x4 (to distrubute the point loading of the studs due to live loads, more evenly to the concrete, which would be minimal imho). I would run the knee wall at least half way across the total span of the floor, if not all the way. The flex of the un-supported joist next to a supported one may cause some problems....but that's your area of expertise, how much can it flex before oooops tile cracks 


WDA


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## Aaron (Jun 19, 2005)

WDA,

Thanks for the reply. As for how much it can flex before it breaks I go by a deflection calculator to tell me the score and if it passes or fails. 2x10 16OC spans 14 feet and under will pass. Over that you fail. That is for Ceramic tile, for natural stone you can't span more than 10 feet with 2x10s.

Now some tile guys don't even look at the joists, they figure you are paying them to lay tile and if your floor under it isn't good that isn't their problem. I either tell them how to fix the problem or I won't take the job. Unless it's just a builder being an idiot, then I just have him sign off on me saying "this shouldn't be done" and that I am not responsible for the life of the job.

9 out of 10 times I would just pass on this job if they didn't want to get this done by someone else, the thing is they have had 2 bad tile jobs previously. One in the house I looked at, whoever they hired just did a bad job all around. I would like to help them, but they have picked out a fairly expensive tile and claim if they want to do this they just can't afford to hire someone special to come in and do something.

Sometimes I will sister joists myself if its not many and there aren't a ton of things in the way. 

I agree a knee wall sounds like the best idea, would distribute the weight the most. I just don't want to do this much work to get to the job. That and the fact I don't have a framing nailer and I am on my knees enough doing this I don't need to be hunched over in a crawl space banging nails.. 

I have seen tons of these beams put up with jacks, just never done one myself and figured that might be an easy fix if I could distribute the weight from the 8 foot beam with 3 jacks and plywood or something under them. But if that is even ify then I will just have to pass on the job.

Appreciate your reply
Aaron


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## Bukemdano (Mar 12, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> Well what if said I have this tile job and went on to say I am going to use turds for thinset and silly putty for grout. LOL


LMAO. That is priceless. I am going to have to remember that one :Thumbs:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

mdshunk said:


> From a pure code standpoint, almost anything Aaron would do would meet code. If the original joist spans met the prevailing codes, anything he builds underneath is considered non load bearing, even though some load may be transferred. We all know that the span tables for a tiled floor are more strict than code minimum span tables. What he's doing is no different than what a first floor non load bearing perpendicular partition would do in 2 story slab on grade construction.


You should come and build over in Snohomish County in WA. I don't think your average middle America carpenter wouldn't last long over here. I thunk the enjunnering woud kill th'err pro--fits.


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## WDA (Apr 8, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> your average middle America carpenter wouldn't last long over here. I thunk the enjunnering woud kill th'err pro--fits.



Only if they are bidding before the engineering clacs are done... you never know which way the wind / equations will blow them. Just when you think you have it figured out for yourself...they through a dart at the equation board and the entire solution changes LOL

.... there's no way to make profit if you don't know what your bidding on...that's called hourly or let the idiot who bid it..screw himself.


WDA


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

WDA said:


> Only if they are bidding before the engineering clacs are done... you never know which way the wind / equations will blow them. Just when you think you have it figured out for yourself...they through a dart at the equation board and the entire solution changes LOL
> 
> .... there's no way to make profit if you don't know what your bidding on...that's called hourly or let the idiot who bid it..screw himself.
> 
> ...


Bidding you don't bid high here if you want a job. Competition is steep. Even with all the over engineering and high General Liability. Price's are reletively the same as they were 5 years ago. GL being the big profit killer in the last two years. 
It seems every time I work for a s*M*u*CK*b contractor right when I hit about 10 g's in wages which isn't very long I get laid off. 
Not because I suck but because they know if they pay me any more money it will send the GL cost through the roof and kill any profit they hoped to make.


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## WDA (Apr 8, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> Price's are reletively the same as they were 5 years ago. GL being the big profit killer in the last two years.



Try the last ten years here, probably closer to fifteen. I bailed on 'just framing'  back in '93-as a subcontractor. I love framing, but not that much for just getting by. I'd be better off working at McDonalds and doing Habitat for Humaity houses to get my framing fix's. Commercial framing was better than residential...thats changed in the last 5 years too.

MY feelings are steep competition is not an excuse....that's why I moved to remodeling. Money is better, but you probably already know...thats a whole other can of worms 


WDA


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

WDA said:


> Try the last ten years here, probably closer to fifteen. I bailed on 'just framing'  back in '93-as a subcontractor. I love framing, but not that much for just getting by. I'd be better off working at McDonalds and doing Habitat for Humaity houses to get my framing fix's. Commercial framing was better than residential...thats changed in the last 5 years too.
> 
> MY feelings are steep competition is not an excuse....that's why I moved to remodeling. Money is better, but you probably already know...thats a whole other can of worms
> 
> ...


It's a damn shame too but it can be blamed on "cheap labor". I like framing but can't stand the pay. I really get paid more not being a "framer" so framing is a fall back trade for me. Now I go back and fix bad framing or old worn out wood  . lol The stuff I doing now requires a bandsaw, jigsaw,or/and tablesaw to get the kosher cuts.
With the insurance hike two years ago I wouldn't even want to frame everyday let alone have a big crew. Would end up doing a house or two for free just to pay the GL. Which comes back around to having err ... needing "cheap labor". Which most contractor around here blame on then insurance commision Barbra Senn ultra leftwing liberal scumbag b*tch.


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## karma_carpentry (Aug 7, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> With the insurance hike two years ago I wouldn't even want to frame everyday let alone have a big crew. Would end up doing a house or two for free just to pay the GL. Which comes back around to having err ... needing "cheap labor". Which most contractor around here blame on then insurance commision Barbra Senn ultra leftwing liberal scumbag b*tch.


Um... who is Barbara Senn, why do you seem to hate her so much, and how is she related to high liability insurance payments? Maybe it's a regional thing as I'm on the east coast and you're in Washington state, but I'm curious.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

karma_carpentry said:


> Um... who is Barbara Senn, why do you seem to hate her so much, and how is she related to high liability insurance payments? Maybe it's a regional thing as I'm on the east coast and you're in Washington state, but I'm curious.



She set all the rules. She also had doctors leaving this state in droves. This is the type of person that is qualified to be Attorney General too.


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