# Help with remodel...house is sloping...no budget for underpinning or lifting.



## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

I am working on a residential remodel currently, and I am coming across some real challenges. The home was built in 1975 and has slowly sunk. The homeowner wants new tile and laminates, new kitchen, basement remodel, new roofing, new landscape, and a new fence to boot. The main issue is the amount of slope inside the home. It has up to a 7 inch slope (SLOPE WAS CALCULATED INCORRECTLY, SEE NEWER POSTS) over 65 feet...over the length of the house. They would like the floors leveled for flooring installation, but to do that would decrease the floor to ceiling height over the length of the house. The walls running perpendicular to the length of the house are all out of plumb as well. I don't even know where to begin with this place...but I wish to help the folks out. Like it states in the title, underpinning or otherwise lifting and leveling the entire structure is out of the budget (for the owner, I already suggested looking down those avenues for a solution). So what I am looking for is alternative solutions, or ideas, or theories...any kind of help really.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

So fixing a serious structural issue is not in the budget? 
But total kitchen, flooring, basement remodel, roof, landscape, fence are within the budget? Do you understand how ridiculous this sounds?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Read my tag line & pay attention to it....


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Fix foundation, then see if they can afford new carpet.


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

asevereid said:


> I am working on a residential remodel currently, and I am coming across some real challenges. The home was built in 1975 and has slowly sunk. The homeowner wants new tile and laminates, new kitchen, basement remodel, new roofing, new landscape, and a new fence to boot. The main issue is the amount of slope inside the home. It has up to a 7 inch slope over 65 feet...over the length of the house. They would like the floors leveled for flooring installation, but to do that would decrease the floor to ceiling height over the length of the house. The walls running perpendicular to the length of the house are all out of plumb as well. I don't even know where to begin with this place...but I wish to help the folks out. Like it states in the title, underpinning or otherwise lifting and leveling the entire structure is out of the budget (for the owner, I already suggested looking down those avenues for a solution). So what I am looking for is alternative solutions, or ideas, or theories...any kind of help really.


Leave out the fence, basement Reno, landscaping, and any other frivolous add ons, and put that money towards making their BIGGEST INVESTMENT EVER safe and structurally sound.


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## Tylerwalker32 (Jun 27, 2011)

Might as well throw the money away that was gonna be used on the other projects. If the structure isn't right all the rest is a complete waste.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Now that we know the house needs leveled, what is it sitting on?


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Start digging under the high side and let it settle seven inches.

Andy.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

BTW I was just kidding about the above.

Andy.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> BTW I was just kidding about the above.
> 
> Andy.



Ya, sure you were....:laughing: :laughing::laughing: :clap: :thumbsup:


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

I do understand that this sounds ridiculous, and I am asking for alternative solutions. I know that there is a whole lot of experience within this forum...I am looking for ideas. I do understand where the criticisms are coming from, because it is ridiculous to do all of that work on a home in that condition. If anyone has encountered a situation like this before, I would appreciate your insight.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

What is it sitting on?


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

If you are confident the house has stopped moving you could jack the house up to level from the basement. Of course you will have some issues with plumbing, electric, possibly hvac, siding, etc. but those are all manageable. Then you have a level house (the basement is still a problem)

If the house is still moving there is little point in dealing with the rest.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

It might not have basement? It could be sitting on post and pier?


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

If you dig under the high side of the house as Andy suggested, and the house will not level out, there could be a structural issue, try calling an engineer and he will give you proper details to rectify that problem.


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## EmmCeeDee (May 23, 2010)

How much is it going to cost to "level" the floor in each room? How is that going to cost less than doing it right and leveling the house?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Leveling floors the whole length isn't practical, but you can level room by room, you'll just have some pretty big step downs (or step ups), also known as tripping hazards I'd have all kinds of questions about this one.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

crazy stuff..


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Do the fence and roof. If it isn't too far out, level the kitchen floor and do the kitchen remodel - include shimming and dry walling the ceiling and any walls that need it to get it close to plumb / square. Cabinets don't look good or fit well if it's too far out. Beware of step downs / ups going into adjacent areas - these can be deal killers. If they aren't going to jack the house any time soon, do the basement (I'm assuming this could be done level end to end). The rest of it needs to stay the same - slanted, or be jacked.

Room by room (or full length) leveling never looks good unless you redo the ceilings (and possibly walls). There is only so much slop you can take up without everything looking / getting wonky. The room(s) on the lowest end could also be done, but the kitchen is where the remodel has the most benefit aesthetically and leveling everything will be needed for cabinets, etc., so that's where to really consider it. A word of warning, it's a lot of work and the HO may be surprised at what it will cost.


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## EmmCeeDee (May 23, 2010)

What you are being paid for is not just your labor but your experience and advice. Right now everyone, including you, is shaking their head. That is a sign. Your client thinks they know better than you, but no matter what they say now they are going to blame you when their expensive renovation starts showing the effects of movement. 

Personally I would walk away from this job unless the HO agrees to find some money in the budget to jack up the house. Have you gotten estimates?


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

RE: DWB: The home is sitting on a concrete foundation, open basement, 8 inch thick walls, and I am not too sure about the size of the footings...not enough info on the original blueprints. Weird thing about this house is that it slopes end to end, but is still level side to side.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

asevereid said:


> RE: DWB: The home is sitting on a concrete foundation, open basement, 8 inch thick walls, and I am not too sure about the size of the footings...not enough info on the original blueprints. Weird thing about this house is that it slopes end to end, but is still level side to side.


Cracking in any basement walls/walls?


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## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

only flooring that will take the dropping and future flexing is carpeting

tell them to carpet it , until they really want to spend the money to do it right 
you`ll be doing them a favor, and yourself

if they don`t agree . don`t join the village of idiots, and go elsewhere ...really

if you can`t figure out how to level it , it means your not experienced enought to deal with it( sorry)


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

UPDATE: Further inspection on the home shows evidence of a previous lift. I will be looking into it further if I can (ie: any previous permits pulled, if I can access that info with the city). The new adjusted lift will be 3 and 5/8" at the foundation wall, at one end of the structure, to level out the flooring above. Does this open up the possibility of pad footings in the basement, permanent steel pole shoring, and the installation of girders running the length of the structure? I am meeting with a consultant this week to discuss it further, as the homeowner is now on board with fixing the structural issue. I do appreciate the input I am receiving from you all, and even the criticisms are welcome. Now that the homeowner is ready to deal with the structure, this project can begin to move forward.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Was this built on fill? 

So now it's only 3 -5/8" out?


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

Timeless, I edited the first post, the measures from the original post were incorrect....that what happens when you forget to allow for the height of your instrument in some of the calculations. I checked and re-checked today, and had a good sit down with the homeowner. I explained the labor cost of their desired 'repairs', and all of the work that would accompany it...it was a bit of a tug of war for a while, but they came to the conclusion that fixing the structure will be the first thing to do. If all goes well with the consultant this week, we may be tearing out doors and windows, scheduling electrical, plumbing and HVAC relocation's before this coming weekend. It sounds hopeful, but I know that there are going to be a few more snags along the way.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

asevereid said:


> Timeless, I edited the first post, the measures from the original post were incorrect....that what happens when you forget to allow for the height of your instrument in some of the calculations. I checked and re-checked today, and had a good sit down with the homeowner. I explained the labor cost of their desired 'repairs', and all of the work that would accompany it...it was a bit of a tug of war for a while, but they came to the conclusion that fixing the structure will be the first thing to do. If all goes well with the consultant this week, we may be tearing out doors and windows, scheduling electrical, plumbing and HVAC relocation's before this coming weekend. It sounds hopeful, but I know that there are going to be a few more snags along the way.


As everyone said, it's best to take care of the critical systems of the house before completing any cosmetic projects. Kinda like getting your wife a boob job when your heart needs replacing. It's only going to magnify your heart problem.


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## Astrix (Feb 23, 2009)

In addition to the construction advice already given, there are also insurance issues that will need to be resolved. You may not have thought about this, but it is very important that you run this project by your insurance broker before starting to do any work.

1. A standard exclusion on General Liability insurance is XCU (Explosion, Collapse, Underpinning). You will have to get this coverage added to your policy, otherwise your insurance will deny any claim if the levelling procedure goes wrong. Here is a sample excerpt of the exclusion:


> "Structural property damage" means the collapse of or structural injury to any building or structure due to:
> .....a. Grading of land, excavating, borrowing, filling, back-filling, tunneling, pile driving, cofferdam work or caisson work; or
> .....b. Moving, shoring, underpinning, raising or demolition of any building or structure or removal or rebuilding of any structural support of that building or structure.


This coverage is not cheap, however, you can buy it with the Explosion peril still excluded; so in other words you are only buying the C&U cover.

2. In addition to having the above standard exclusion removed, you will likely also have to have your Liability rating revised. If you currently are insured as Residential Remodeling or Interior Carpentry, then you may not be covered for major structural modifications. A different (higher) rate may have to be added which will result in an additional premium adjustment. Your W/C rates may have to be adjusted as well. Again, check with your insurance broker. 

You should also get your broker to give you quotes for the additional insurance costs if any of the above changes are required. That way you can make sure to include those extra costs when you quote the HO.

An option may be to sub-contract out the structural levelling. Make sure you have a strong indemnity agreement and that the sub-contractor has added you as an Additional Insured on their policy so that you are protected if you get pulled into a lawsuit caused by the sub's mistakes.

3. Last, because there was previous work done to level out the home, you could end up in a mess of a claims adjustment if at some future date the house has ongoing structural problems. If that previous work was done many years ago, the statute of limitations may have expired on suing the first contractor even if future engineering reports show that they were negligent. Your insurance policy could then be stuck paying for a major future structural damage claim even if you only did some minor adjustments to the first contractor's work. 

As a future claim would be considered a Completed Operations claim, that means that you will have to keep the extra Liability rate line for "structural construction" (see Item 2. above) on your policy for as long as your contract warranties completed operations and/or the statute of limitations in your area. I am not sure what is usually found in residential construction contracts, but the standard in commercial is minimum of 2 years and most public works require 6 years.

Sorry to add to the list of concerns, but I would hate for you to find out after the fact that you don't have the correct insurance or that you didn't budget for any extra costs. These are issues that you should get resolved with your insurance broker to make sure that you are adequately insured before proceeding with this difficult project.

P.S. - To drive home the risk of ongoing future problems, I added a photo of a famous "levelling" project that has been ongoing for 800 years and is still unresolved. :laughing:


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

Astrix said:


> In addition to the construction advice already given, there are also insurance issues that will need to be resolved. You may not have thought about this, but it is very important that you run this project by your insurance broker before starting to do any work.
> 
> 1. A standard exclusion on General Liability insurance is XCU (Explosion, Collapse, Underpinning). You will have to get this coverage added to your policy, otherwise your insurance will deny any claim if the levelling procedure goes wrong. Here is a sample excerpt of the exclusion:
> This coverage is not cheap, however, you can buy it with the Explosion peril still excluded; so in other words you are only buying the C&U cover.
> ...


Astrix, I cannot thank you enough for that information. It's folks like you on this site, and in this forum, that add a little more value to our projects and our businesses when we need a bit of help. That goes for some more of you folks too...EmCeeDee, Timeless Quality, Warren, ScipioAfricanus, griz, Dirtywhiteboy, greg24k, moorewarner, Spike7...you are all a great help. Even the criticisms can point someone in the right direction. I will continue to update as this progresses.


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

This post from a couple of years ago shows a lot of great ideas in a somewhat similar situation. technique, I am going to be looking for you for some insight. http://www.contractortalk.com/f18/s...oad-bearing-walls-without-support-more-71408/


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## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

hope all goes well
a good structural engineer will put you in the right direction

hey ! they are gonna move out while your doing this , aren`t they?


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> BTW I was just kidding about the above.
> 
> Andy.


Glad I caught this just in time. Otherwise I would have been 1/2way to Canada with a shovel.

Good Luck
Dave


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

asevereid said:


> RE: DWB: The home is sitting on a concrete foundation, open basement, 8 inch thick walls, and I am not too sure about the size of the footings...not enough info on the original blueprints. Weird thing about this house is that it slopes end to end, but is still level side to side.


Well thats good only half the house is sinking I am on the west coast of fl the sink hole capitol, I am not convinced about a lot of these repair methods,


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

UPDATE: This project will be put on hold for some time now; the HO is considering legal action against whatever party they can find responsible for their current situation. If it continues after legal action, the house will be leveled...or "leveled", and the project will begin again. I wish them the best of luck, and hope they don't lose my number. For all who contributed witticisms, criticisms, and sarcasmisms...?, thanks. Now, onto the next potential project...a 40'x60' shop.


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

asevereid said:


> UPDATE: This project will be put on hold for some time now; the HO is considering legal action against whatever party they can find responsible for their current situation. If it continues after legal action, the house will be leveled...or "leveled", and the project will begin again. I wish them the best of luck, and hope they don't lose my number. For all who contributed witticisms, criticisms, and sarcasmisms...?, thanks. Now, onto the next potential project...a 40'x60' shop.


good now send him a bill for your time, i mean it!!!


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

I asked about being built on fill, because we a had a situation in Wichita, where the builder raised the grade improperly, and had many homes sinking as you described..


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

Not too sure about the site conditions...but they did say a few other folks in the neighborhood have had similar issues. They went on to say that those neighbors had pursued legal action as well, so I think when they heard about that it got their wheels turning. And they were paid me appropriately for all of my time. Again, I hope it works out for them because I am really looking forward to remodeling their home for them in the future. Timeless, what was the outcome in Wichita?


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

The builder has had to supply repairs, and even offered one a new home.

In turn, the builders association sued the city for lack of soils testing, and the end result is a bunch of new compaction regs..

Here's a link to one of the stories..Wichita Eagle


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

Update: The client came to see me the other night to discuss the project further. I asked them again if they would be bringing the structure up to where it should be. They declined. So I informed them that I would not continue to be involved in the interior remodel of their home. Turns out that's okay with them (always is isn't it?), and they have 'professionals' coming in to level the floors...not the house, the floors. The client is going to pay a flat rate of $4000.00 to someone to shim the floor joists on the first and second floor of the house. Can't wait to see how the kitchen remodel goes after that.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Sounds like you made the right decision to me. You don't want that liability hanging over your head.


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