# Watts hot water recirculation pump what do you think?



## nhmaster3015

rbsremodeling said:


> I think the purpose behind the plumbing question should make a difference. When ever I ask a plumbing question it is usually so I can comprehend what has needs to happen.
> 
> By knowing the process I can prepare my work better so that the plumbers job becomes easier.
> 
> I won't put fire stop framing in the bays where water or wastelines need to go
> 
> I drop my joists out of the way of wastelines if possible.
> 
> I leave a mark on subfloor or put blocking with notes for rough ins
> 
> Put in blocking to straps for wasterlines
> 
> I flash the roof after plumbing vents go through the roof so the leak liablity is mine not the plumbers.
> 
> I put extra kick plates where I know there my be a problem with nails of screws
> 
> I try to make the job easy for anyone who follows my work so the job goes smoothly. Not so I can cut the plumber out of a job.
> 
> 
> So the plumbing, electrical, HVAC questions I ask or contribute to are to expand my knowledge to make me a better contractor


Now here's a guy I wouldn't mind working with. :clap:


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## 415moto

nhmaster3015 said:


> By the way Moto, your lack of knowledge concerning back flow and cross connection and the hazards therein show clearly why you should not be offering advice about plumbing. And yes, improperly installed or mal-function could indeed make finley and his entire family quite sick indeed.


There is where the holier than thou plumber attitude is an issue. These are the exact reasons that people post these questions. You can take the time to educate other trades about things like this. But the answer is usually "go ask a plumber, you shouldnt be touching this". Explain why, this a forum where trades can meet and discuss things. Explain what the issue is with cross connection and how it can make you sick. The posts are short in response and are along the lines of simple answers with no explanation, not conductive to learning. Which is the reason why most of us are here. 

Truth be told, my plumber (sub) has seen this unit and has no issue with cross connection. Other than the fact you get some warm with the cold. 
How can cross contamination between hot and cold make a difference?


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## rbsremodeling

415moto said:


> There is where the holier than thou plumber attitude is an issue. These are the exact reasons that people post these questions. You can take the time to educate other trades about things like this. But the answer is usually "go ask a plumber, you shouldnt be touching this". Explain why, this a forum where trades can meet and discuss things. Explain what the issue is with cross connection and how it can make you sick. The posts are short in response and are along the lines of simple answers with no explanation, not conductive to learning. Which is the reason why most of us are here.
> 
> Truth be told, my plumber (sub) has seen this unit and has no issue with cross connection. Other than the fact you get some warm with the cold.
> How can cross contamination between hot and cold make a difference?



I agree with most of your post. BUT is it the plumbers on this forum job to educate you on how something is done??? 

They spent many years and $$$ to become licensed why should they give away their knowledge for free???

BUT on the flip side why do the plumbers come to a public forum where the objective is to share ideas and educate others and have an attitude about it????

Things that make you go hmmmmm !!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## 415moto

rbsremodeling said:


> I agree with most of your post. BUT is it the plumbers on this forum job to educate you on how something is done???
> 
> They spent many years and $$$ to become licensed why should they give away their knowledge for free???
> 
> BUT on the flip side why do the plumbers come to a public forum where the objective is to share ideas and educate others and have an attitude about it????
> 
> Things that make you go hmmmmm !!!!!!!!!!!!!


Exactly, forum members are not soliciting this information by cold calling plumbers in the phone book or dropping by a jobsite. We are all members of the forum who want to better themselves and learn. Why participate in a forum if you do not want to be constructive?


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## nhmaster3015

but nobody said to call a plumber or anything holier than thou on this thread. All we said was that the Watts recirc pump is not allowed in many states. You guys started the plumber bashing. 

If you want a trieste' on backflow and cross connection go to www.watts.com there are several relevant videos on the subject. If you are getting testy because I didn't take the time to explain the whole principal of backflow and cross connection than I am sorry, it didn't occur to me to type in a 3 page explanation. But again, I never bashed remodelers nor was anyone flippant or discourteous to the O.P.


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## Double-A

415moto said:


> Truth be told, my plumber (sub) has seen this unit and has no issue with cross connection. Other than the fact you get some warm with the cold.
> How can cross contamination between hot and cold make a difference?


The legionella bacterium is but one good example of how a cross connection can be dangerous. 

We take our plumbing safety for granted in this country, because problems are rare, and water borne disease is usually undetected or unreported because the folks with the most problems are on well water, not municipal supplies. No one seems to care or think it news when Joe Rural's mother-in-law gets sick, or Joe's whole family. They just think he's an idiot for having a bad well and too cheap to fix his own problems.

Several very nasty things can live and grow in water up to about 140 degrees. This is why the food service industry has what they call "the danger zone". It is a range of temperature from 40 degrees to 140 degrees. Foods should be stored and kept out of this range of temperatures because bacteria thrive in it.

This is the reason we plumbers say we protect the health and safety of the nation. Plumbing has done more to prevent disease than the medical profession ever can, just by providing clean water and waste water treatment.

Drinking hot water from a domestic heater may not kill you, but if the temperature is too low, then it can be filled with bacteria. But, at the same time, turning the water temp up can expose folks to dangerous scald burns. 

If you think you know about plumbing, think again. It ain't rocket science, but it should be respected for more than just the pipes you see. The concepts are simple, but the repercussions of bad plumbing can be deadly.

Think about this for just a short time, and you will see why serious plumbers take issue with frivolous DIY'rs and those who may have the skill and some knowledge to undertake a project, but have no idea what the real risks are.

This cross connection issue is just one prime example of how a little ignorance can hurt. 

Please note! Municipal systems in many areas have many bad things in them, but the numbers are so small as to not be a concern. Municipals systems are also treated with bacteria killing chemicals. This lowers the danger to well below and acceptable level.

This is why its just as important not to over size storage tank type water heaters as it is not to under size them. Stagnant water can give the bacteria a foothold and allow them to reach numbers that are dangerous to human health and life.

For healthy adults, the risk is minimal. For the old, immune compromised or those too young to have fully developed immune systems, the risk is somewhat greater.


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## rbsremodeling

My plumbers knew about this before it was ever published. They were cutting out and replacing lead water service even before the city got involved. 

Drinking water was making people sick for years and no one said a word


Morning Edition, News of dangerous levels of lead in Washington D.C.'s drinking water sparks an outcry from the community -- especially because city water officials knew about the problem and did little to warn the public. In the first of two reports, NPR's Daniel Zwerdling explains that weak federal laws regulating drinking water are to blame.


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## Driftwood

*Please start listing documented cases here on resircs.*

Do You think Grundfos [a very large co. ] would still be selling these units around the world if there was an issue ? ESPECIALLY with our sue happy Country! Is it dangerous to drink from the hot water Tap now, also?.
There is a genuine concern for cross over BUT this isn't one of them!
Can You name JUST ONE DOCUMENTED health problem arrising from these pumps installed as per instructions?? How Many of You plumbers have backflow
preventers on all of Your hose Bibs? I do. Now that's something to caution about,this ain't :no:


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## rbsremodeling

Driftwood said:


> Do You think Grundfos [a very large co. ] would still be selling these units around the world if there was an issue ? ESPECIALLY with our sue happy Country! Is it dangerous to drink from the hot water Tap now, also?.
> There is a genuine concern for cross over BUT this isn't one of them!
> Can You name JUST ONE DOCUMENTED health problem arrising from these pumps installed as per instructions?? How Many of You plumbers have backflow
> preventers on all of Your hose Bibs? I do. Now that's something to caution about,this ain't :no:


Ford sold 4 million trucks with faulty wiring that left the plant and recalled them 2 years later when it was discovered by mechanics world wide.


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## Grumpyplumber

415moto said:


> There is where the holier than thou plumber attitude is an issue. These are the exact reasons that people post these questions. You can take the time to educate other trades about things like this. But the answer is usually "go ask a plumber, you shouldnt be touching this". Explain why, this a forum where trades can meet and discuss things. Explain what the issue is with cross connection and how it can make you sick. The posts are short in response and are along the lines of simple answers with no explanation, not conductive to learning. Which is the reason why most of us are here.
> 
> Truth be told, my plumber (sub) has seen this unit and has no issue with cross connection. Other than the fact you get some warm with the cold.
> How can cross contamination between hot and cold make a difference?


*Here's a thought...*
*I have done my share of DIY homeowner jobs where they decide to do the carpentry, drywall and tile themselves on bath remodels & kitchens.*

*Here thats legal, plumbing & electrical require licenses, not light carpentry.*

*Would you mind if I just send them here to ask you how to do the work?*

*It would make my life a hell of a lot easier if they could just figure out how to level and plumb the floors & walls.*

*You're not above that...are you?*


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## rbsremodeling

Grumpyplumber said:


> *Here's a thought...*
> *I have done my share of DIY homeowner jobs where they decide to do the carpentry, drywall and tile themselves on bath remodels & kitchens.*
> 
> *Here thats legal, plumbing & electrical require licenses, not light carpentry.*
> 
> *Would you mind if I just send them here to ask you how to do the work?*
> 
> *It would make my life a hell of a lot easier if they could just figure out how to level and plumb the floors & walls.*
> 
> *You're not above that...are you?*



I would and have answered DIY questions all the time. 

If it's going to help them do it right so I don't get physically ill when I open the wall and see all the f-uped work they did that I now have to tear out for the sucker who bought the house after they sold it :cursing:


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## nhmaster3015

Driftwood said:


> Do You think Grundfos [a very large co. ] would still be selling these units around the world if there was an issue ? ESPECIALLY with our sue happy Country! Is it dangerous to drink from the hot water Tap now, also?.
> There is a genuine concern for cross over BUT this isn't one of them!
> Can You name JUST ONE DOCUMENTED health problem arrising from these pumps installed as per instructions?? How Many of You plumbers have backflow
> preventers on all of Your hose Bibs? I do. Now that's something to caution about,this ain't :no:


Why do you insist on arguing the point? Call Grundfos and Watts see what they say. Then call the plumbers board and see what they say. It's not my job to interpret the rules, nor may I pick and choose which ones to follow and which ones I'd rather not. It don't work that way my friend.

As for backflow preventers on hose bibs we all install them, It't the code. Moreover if you buy your stock from a plumbing wholesaler instead of cheepo depot, it's all they sell. But kudo's and a pat on the back to you for putting one on your own hose.


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## Grumpyplumber

rbsremodeling said:


> I would and have answered DIY questions all the time.
> 
> If it's going to help them do it right so I don't get physically ill when I open the wall and see all the f-uped work they did that I now have to tear out for the sucker who bought the house after they sold it :cursing:


*You're one of the GC's I find to have at least a healthy respect for my trade, I can respect that.*

*However, my point is two fold.*
*There are so many small things you can do to screw up plumbing thats it's impossible to cover them all online, barring license issues.*

*My point, it's a slow market, I have a gc that I have been keeping busy.*

*He has no way of sending me as much work as I send him, I have talked homeowners out of doing their own work and gotten him the work instead.*

*I don't try to take that work myself, I respect his trade...I'm not stupid enough to yield to greed and I know that what I do now will come back to me in the future.*

*If I wanted to, I could pay a $100 HIC fee and do it myself, then find an online forum and get the info I want.*

*I don't, because I know it isn't that simple, there are a plethora of things I could screw up in lost communication online.*

*I respect other trades, I hope it's reciprocal, often here it isn't.*

*I have come to learn that the usual suspect for not respecting other trades (licensed in particular) is a lack of experience, not always, but it's very often a sure sign.*

*Other causes are local markets with lenient rules, or no rules at all.*


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## rbsremodeling

I think part of the big picture is how you where inducted into the trades. I was brought up a plumber-plumbed, an electrician did electric, A contractor contracted with the HO and the Subs etc.

So I learned early on to respected craftmen and trades. Newer/ younger contractors aren't taught that.

Also I want to educate myself and be abreast of what's new in trades and code updates, but I don't want to cut out the middle man/sub.

Even when I do work that my subs should do because they could not make it out, told me it was ok or what ever reason. They come out and check it/fix-it/inspect-it and are compensated for their time.


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## Grumpyplumber

rbsremodeling said:


> I agree with most of your post. BUT is it the plumbers on this forum job to educate you on how something is done???
> 
> They spent many years and $$$ to become licensed why should they give away their knowledge for free???
> 
> *BUT on the flip side why do the plumbers come to a public forum where the objective is to share ideas and educate others and have an attitude about it????*
> 
> Things that make you go hmmmmm !!!!!!!!!!!!!


*As Shakespeare said, "THAT is the question.".*

*What demograph serves my business best?*
*There's a good question.*

*What is the best way to avoid getting stiffed on final payment?*
*Good question.*

*Why do certain people seem to expect me to work harder than others?*
*Happy to share on that...yup.*

*How do I plumb a bathroom I'm remodeling?*
*Sorry pal, the lines been crossed, this isn't info we share with unlicensed guys.*


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## CA PLMBR

Hello guys,
The manufacturer of the pump that Double A was talking about is a Metlund (Dmand System). That is the one that has the pump and comfort tee (thingy) in the same setup. I remember using those like 7 years ago. Now the ones that are most popular are the Watts (I believe made by Grundfos) type. They have the pump that goes on the top of the hot connection of the water heater and the comfort tee goes at the location where you wish to have the hot water fastest. I usually get a request of the MB & KIT. The true downside is the fact that the comfort tee has to circ a certain amount of luke warm water into the cold side because it uses the cold side as the return line. The comfort tee is somewhat like the thermostat for a car (but in reverse). With a car when the block gets hot it opens with the comfort tee it closes when the water gets luke warm (72 degrees I believe). Also a problem I've encountered is that the comfort valves get calcium build-up in mineral rich areas and they must be replaced. The symptom is usually a complaint of H&C mixing in the area of the comfort tee. It's definitely alot cheaper than running a conventional circ system where you have to actually run a 1/2" to 3/4" return line from the furthest fixture to the water heater and install a pump and check valve at the heater. In the case of the comfort tee, the comfort tee acts as the check valve. I have a question for nhmaster3015...How would a comfort tee be more illegal than a mixing valve for a tub/shower. These pump systems have to be approved by ISME/IAPMO and such to be used in potable water systems so they must meet the minimal UPC requirements. I do not feel the public safety is being compromised any more than would a person being endangered by going on a roller coaster. Also if you have a conventional circulating system you still have the likelihood of scalding simply by having the WH turned up too high and by using a lavatory faucet or other without a "scald-guard" device in place (normally tub/showers and kit). Simply the benefits outweigh the risks. If someone is worried about being scalded which is I assume was the reason you said safety is just a schtick, they should not have a circulating system period. I have heard of people with conventional circ sytems being scalded. I hope this answer helps someone.


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## nhmaster3015

I appreciate the question but again. I'm not the one that decided these things were or were not legal, our plumbing board did. I, like a good soldier, just follow the rules. The code does however specifically forbid any connection between hot and cold water that uses a mechanical device like a check valve that can fail. I must assume that the board is most likely worried about the possibility of legionella bacteria entering the cold water piping. I have noted however that not all states have banned this thing. I just know mine did and you should check with yours before installing. If your state allows it than it's purely a judgment call on your part.


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## dlcj

I have the same problem in my house. The w.h. is in the attic directly above the master shower so not a prob there but the kitchen and second bath take for ever to get hot. The house is on a slab (one more reason i hate slabs:furious so running a return line for a recerc pump like i would rather do is out of the question. Ive been thinking of doing it like you guys have been talking but reading some of the post have just about decided to not do it. Waiting for the cold to get cold may waste as much water as waiting for hot to get hot.
Is'nt there a mini elec. tankless that will go under the sink that will heat the water till the hot from tank gets there? Why not have one by every fixture and only have to run a cold to each? Is there a scald problem with those?


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## CA PLMBR

Hello again,
I read Double A's link to Legionnaires' disease and agree that risks like that should not be taken. I have to admit I posted before I read all 3 pages of this thread, my apologies. I thought the main concern was the scald potential. If I'm reading the Wiki right the growth range is 68-122 degrees. Outside of that the bacteria do not multiply so I would have to say they could not establish themselves within that range. If introduced to the system (through cross connection of say...lack of backflow preventer on a hose bib or lack of anti-siphon at a sprinkler connection) wouldn't they thrive more-so on the cold side than the hot side as far as temperature is concerned. I do realize the water heater tank (stagnant potential) has to be taken into account however the temperature that I normally find suits the homeowners is 125-135. I am a licensed plumber and have been in the trade for 20 years. I realize that not everything new is good but not everything old is good either e.g. galvanized, lead oakum, asbestos, etc...The thing that we have not touched on here is also the undo wear and tear that a circ pump (running 24 hours) puts on your water system. I have seen issues with copper systems where only the hot water line was affected and the copper was basically worn from the inside out. These systems all had a circ pump in place and soil tests did not reveal anything out of the ordinary as far as sulfur or acidic compounds. However the question was not, "Are circulating systems a good idea?". So I stand by my belief that for what they're worth, The Watts system is the best option for the homeowner if they had a GC/Plumber that built a house with the water heater 100+ feet away from the kitchen or MB and did not run a simple 1/2" line back to the heater for a conventional system. For the record my personal feelings on circ systems in general is that they waste more energy than they save water and they put undo wear and tear on your plumbing system. One last thing, if plumbers are "holier than thou" I need to get in line for my wings cause I sure can't fly!


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## CA PLMBR

Hey dlcj,
As far as the under-sink heaters, the smallest is 2 gallons. They require a separate 3/4" line to the exterior of the home between 6" and 24" from the ground (per UPC). You will have to take that into account. also they are usually electric. I wouldn't recommend any water heater to be installed anywhere without using a smitty pan of some sort (a pan under heater with a 3/4" min line to the outside). I have seen too many of them leak into livable spaces ruining cabinets and creating mold issues. Where I live they no longer design any water heater in livable areas. They put them in the garage most often and still have a pan underneath (per municipalities). Theres no easy answer it seems.


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## rbsremodeling

2 plumbing questions asked by remodelers, answered by plumbing contractors without any arguements.

Mannnnn I feel a group hug coming on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:laughing:


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## neolitic

KillerToiletSpider said:


> It's a gravity system, they work, I've installed many of them.


Yeah, just took me a bit to figure
out that was what they were doing
up there.
I had never seen one without a pump,
but the convection loop worked pretty well.
(Other than the first guy mixed gavli with
copper and rotted out the heater in 5 years)

I was just curious whether Maine allowed
them where they required re-circ.


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## KillerToiletSpider

rbsremodeling said:


> 2 plumbing questions asked by remodelers, answered by plumbing contractors without any arguements.
> 
> Mannnnn I feel a group hug coming on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:laughing:


I'm not a contractor, I work for someone else.


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## neolitic

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I'm not a contractor, I work for someone else.


And I'm too damn old
to argue for no good reason! :laughing:


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## rbsremodeling

Damn!!! I really thought we hit a milestone here


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## neolitic

These threads are like 
death, taxes, and women.
Eternal, unnecessary, and inexplicalbe. :thumbsup:


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## MALCO.New.York

neolitic said:


> These threads are like
> death, taxes, and women.
> Eternal, unnecessary, and inexplicalbe. :thumbsup:


Without reservation! 


But it may allow some to vent, saving their wives from the daily beating!!!!!! So there IS a purpose! Of Sorts!


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## KillerToiletSpider

MALCO.New.York said:


> Without reservation!
> 
> 
> But it may allow some to vent saving their wives from the daily beating!!!!!! So there IS a purpose! Of Sorts!


No, the beatings will continue until morale improves.


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## MALCO.New.York

KillerToiletSpider said:


> No, the beatings will continue until morale improves.


You are not right!!!!!


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## neolitic

:laughing:


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## CA PLMBR

neolitic said:


> And I'm too damn old
> to argue for no good reason! :laughing:


Hey Neolitic,
I thought we were debating. My blood pressure rises during an argument. Maybe I need to check and see if I still have a pulse............beep...................beep..................Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.................


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## MALCO.New.York

CA PLMBR said:


> Hey Neolitic,
> I thought we were debating. My blood pressure rises during an argument. Maybe I need to check and see if I still have a pulse............beep...................beep..................Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.................



Uhhh. He is gone. One less Plumber!!!!!! :laughing: (I am joking Plumbers. JOKING!)


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## plumberman

:laughing:


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## K2

I actually learned alot from this thread although for a while I wanted to see it die. However, I won't mess with recirc's for another 50 years although, I believe a couple of guys here actually have the expertise to do it properly. Thanks for the info and the entertainment,( I don't have cable)..:laughing:


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## MALCO.New.York

I am sure that we are all happy to have been of service!

As you see..........Nearly all the threads that come to mud-slinging and piss and vinegar, turn out on a happy and jocular note. I guess that is how we say "sorry for my transgressions" in Contractor talk!!!!


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## KillerToiletSpider

K2 said:


> I actually learned alot from this thread although for a while I wanted to see it die. However, I won't mess with recirc's for another 50 years although, I believe a couple of guys here actually have the expertise to do it properly. Thanks for the info and the entertainment,( I don't have cable)..:laughing:


My business card reads 
Useless.

Not available for work.


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## Mike Finley

Well all's well that ends well!

So lets sum up what we learned by asking a plumbing question -

*What we learned for sure:*
Learned that the Watts unit goes on the heater not under the vanity. 
Noise isn't an issue.
Laing makes a unit that goes in the vanity, but there are some cons with going that route.
The best system without a doubt to accomplish this is a return line run to the hot water heater installed at time of new construction.

*What we discussed but no consensus was reached*
Watts may cater more to the DIY market in regard to this product
Grundfos is considered a better product by some.
There are some health considerations for this product, some states won't even allow it.
There could be a scald issue using one of these.

Had I asked my plumbers about this it's doubtfully 1/2 of this would have been revealed, but thanks to the collective genius of these forums I now know what to look into in order to make a very intelligent decision. Some of us are just a little bit smarter now.

Thanks!:thumbsup:


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## Driftwood

*Very well said thanks' Mike*



Mike Finley said:


> Well all's well that ends well!
> 
> So lets sum up what we learned by asking a plumbing question -
> 
> *What we learned for sure:*
> Learned that the Watts unit goes on the heater not under the vanity.
> Noise isn't an issue.
> Laing makes a unit that goes in the vanity, but there are some cons with going that route.
> The best system without a doubt to accomplish this is a return line run to the hot water heater installed at time of new construction.
> 
> *What we discussed but no consensus was reached*
> Watts may cater more to the DIY market in regard to this product
> Grundfos is considered a better product by some.
> There are some health considerations for this product, some states won't even allow it.
> There could be a scald issue using one of these.
> 
> Had I asked my plumbers about this it's doubtfully 1/2 of this would have been revealed, but thanks to the collective genius of these forums I now know what to look into in order to make a very intelligent decision. Some of us are just a little bit smarter now.
> 
> Thanks!:thumbsup:


I will see if a Grundfos Rep. will comment on their experiences,as to any documented health problems with their product. I need to know this ! Will Post Here


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## Double-A

Mike Finley said:


> Well all's well that ends well!
> 
> So lets sum up what we learned by asking a plumbing question -
> 
> *What we learned for sure:*
> Learned that the Watts unit goes on the heater not under the vanity.
> Noise isn't an issue.
> Laing makes a unit that goes in the vanity, but there are some cons with going that route.
> The best system without a doubt to accomplish this is a return line run to the hot water heater installed at time of new construction.
> 
> *What we discussed but no consensus was reached*
> Watts may cater more to the DIY market in regard to this product
> Grundfos is considered a better product by some.
> There are some health considerations for this product, some states won't even allow it.
> There could be a scald issue using one of these.
> 
> Had I asked my plumbers about this it's doubtfully 1/2 of this would have been revealed, but thanks to the collective genius of these forums I now know what to look into in order to make a very intelligent decision. Some of us are just a little bit smarter now.
> 
> Thanks!:thumbsup:


You forgot the part where you were advised to check with the spouse as to acceptability. I'd hate for you to have done all this research, install your unit of preference and two days later the spouse says, "I don't like it, take it out."

Know your market or your market will eat you for breakfast. Or worse yet, leave you with your favorite lotion for some "me" time.


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## MALCO.New.York

Double-A said:


> You forgot the part where you were advised to check with the spouse as to acceptability. I'd hate for you to have done all this research, install your unit of preference and two days later the spouse says, "I don't like it, take it out."
> 
> Know your market or your market will eat you for breakfast. Or worse yet, leave you with your favorite lotion for some "me" time.





That is SOOOOOO efffed up!


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## Double-A

MALCO.New.York said:


> That is SOOOOOO efffed up!


Thanks!


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## Mike Finley

Double-A said:


> You forgot the part where you were advised to check with the spouse as to acceptability. I'd hate for you to have done all this research, install your unit of preference and two days later the spouse says, "I don't like it, take it out."
> 
> Know your market or your market will eat you for breakfast. Or worse yet, leave you with your favorite lotion for some "me" time.


:thumbsup:

On that note --

It was mentioned that you get some warm water out of the cold side, I took this to mean a few seconds of warm and then it's gone. But the more I thought about this the more I think I might be mistaken in my assuption.

If the hot water line is using the cold water line to return hot water to the hot water heater, doesn't that mean the cold water line all the way back to the hot water heater is filled with hot water? If it takes 60 seconds without one of these units in place to get hotwater from the heater to the faucet, doesn't that mean that once one is installed it takes 60 seconds to get the hot water out of the cold water line now, or 60 seconds to get cold water?

I must not be envisioning this right, where am I going wrong?


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## dlcj

I was wondering the same thing Mike.
but at least the cold wont be as hot as the hot is cold without the pump. If that makes sense:blink:
And the hot in the cold line will eventually cool off some.
but i dont want a luke warm glass of water in the middle of the night either :no:
Theres always a catch


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## CA PLMBR

dlcj said:


> I was wondering the same thing Mike.
> but at least the cold wont be as hot as the hot is cold without the pump. If that makes sense:blink:
> And the hot in the cold line will eventually cool off some.
> but i dont want a luke warm glass of water in the middle of the night either :no:
> Theres always a catch


Hey guys,
Let me reiterate with a bit more clarity. On the Watts recirculating system in essence the pump is only bringing approx 72 degree water to the point of use. Do not confuse this system as INSTANT hot water. I can understand the misconception and have had to explain this after the fact to homeowners. I now have to punctuate to the homeowners that this system is not better than but a substitute for a conventional hot water recirculating system. During normal use you will notice this...
1) You will get hot water sooner than without the system.
2) Initially your cold water will not come out as cold (more like luke warm).
3) You WILL save water.
4) you WON'T get INSTANT hot water.

If these are conditions that are suitable for you by all means go for it. Just be sure to explain to your homeowners these talking points BEFORE. Otherwise you'll have to do some fancy footwork to get them to understand afterwards. Hope this helps.


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## Driftwood

I live with one! after I shower, I fill the coffee pot with cold water. Takes,maybe
5 seconds from luke warm to cold at the kitchen.


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## JamesNLA

This thread is so diluted.
Here's the deal Mike,

Metlund D-mand recirc pumps. It's a Taco pump with a Metlund check - impeller - and all the digital electronics. This is not the Watts setup or the Armstrong setup. I love Armstrong pumps but the design of these stupid passive valves down range is a disaster waiting to happen, and simply they work like crap, and will fail within a few years.

Metlund pres, guy by the name of Larry is a engineer who made a great product with solid engineering to back it up. These are the only recirc pumps that do not void or drastically limit the manufacturers warranty on tankless heaters. 

Here's how they work, Pump gets installed under sink at furthest fixture OR at fixture where you want INSTANT hot water. You have a few options on how to activate the pump. Yes, you can go push button, OR you can also have it so a motion detector located in.....say the bathroom OR in a place mid house, that will detect your movement and activate the pump.

I have done motion detection and it works perfectly. They are great in guest bathrooms, as most guests are not going to either know or want to know what the little button does.

Controller / temp:
So there is a very accurate temperture probe mounted in the impeller housing. BAsically (out of the box settings) when one pushes the button the pump, which BTW is very quiet, activates and moves water from hot side to cold side (nothing new), once that temp probe detects 8 degrees of rise the pump shuts off. 120* water is about 8' feet away, or about 8-15 seconds from the tap with 2gpm raider. Amount of tempered cold water is about 2 - 4 seconds (at most).

Now, let's say you don't want to wait that extra 10 or so seconds for at temp water, you can open up a cover on the pump, remove the circuit board and there is a little potentiometer, give it an 1/8 th of a turn counter clockwise, and the degree of rise has just increased. Instead of 8* it can go all the way up to about 20. Here's the deal with that, when you look on a graph of the time it takes to get water at temp from the initial warming or leading water versus a few feet behind that, the water is basically at temp, or very close when the pump shuts off. Now, this is a trade off - the hotter you set the pump to shut off, the more hot water has tempered up the cold side. Time to discharge tempered cold water goes up minimally (few more seconds).

So what happends if you push it again, after the pump stops? Not a damn thing. You already have hot water sitting there. What about 4 or 5 minutes later? The pump will start up and either run for a few seconds and shut off or if the water temp in the pipe has fallen a bit, it will recycle.

You can't over use it, you can't break it by pushing it over and over. There is thermal protection and if you run it dry, it should take a lick and keep going.

You need to understand what you are getting into. It's NOT a 24/7 recirc system that so many have come used to, this is the most efficient way to get hot water to your tap with basically no water going down the drain while waiting to get up to temp. There are compromises to it and at first most of my customers are a little unsure of it all, but after a few weeks, they all love it. They actually how they are saving money and wear and tear on their plumbing lines and systems.

For what your original questions were, this is the facts with this unit. I have installed atleast 200 of these and have had maybe 3 that had issues. If you have a tankless, I reccomend at least an 1/8th of a turn, maybe a little more. Tankless versus tanked have a little but of a difference in the water temp from tap opening to discharge. Tankless take a little bit longer, if the tankless is not properly gassed it can take a little longer on the way to scaulding the homeowner, but that is an entirely different thread.

So now you are in the know about on demand recirc pump systems. These same setups work very well with a return line too. 
Hope things are well for ya mike

James


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## nhmaster3015

So California code allows a cross connection between the hot and cold?


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## Grumpyplumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> So California code allows a cross connection between the hot and cold?


* ....apparently.*


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## Driftwood

*Yes*

That's what I've been telling You Guys !!!!!!!


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## nhmaster3015

And once again the corporate whores win the battle by greasing the palms of the plumbing and code review boards that allow these travisties to be installed. When we have friends like this in the industry, who needs enemies? Just because some pimps decide to allow something (AAV'S, waterless urinals, 1 1/2 wet venting ect) does not mean that we have to go along with it and install these stupid things. We could stand up for our profession and quit finding ways to cheap things out or save a few hours here and there. We could begin to try and restore respect to the profession but I doubt any but a few will actually try. Thanks to the PHCC for driving the stake a little bit deeper each year. Good going hacks, keep up the good work.:thumbsup:


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## KillerToiletSpider

nhmaster3015 said:


> And once again the corporate whores win the battle by greasing the palms of the plumbing and code review boards that allow these travisties to be installed. When we have friends like this in the industry, who needs enemies? Just because some pimps decide to allow something (AAV'S, waterless urinals, 1 1/2 wet venting ect) does not mean that we have to go along with it and install these stupid things. We could stand up for our profession and quit finding ways to cheap things out or save a few hours here and there. We could begin to try and restore respect to the profession but I doubt any but a few will actually try. Thanks to the PHCC for driving the stake a little bit deeper each year. Good going hacks, keep up the good work.:thumbsup:


This is a bit funny considering your stance on PEX, and it's lack of real world testing before release.


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## Driftwood

Hey, You're up too late NH ! The Kids need a sharp teacher Thur! 

Not worth eating Your liver over! Drift


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## nhmaster3015

KillerToiletSpider said:


> This is a bit funny considering your stance on PEX, and it's lack of real world testing before release.


Spend a bit of time researching the subject. Pex has been in service for a long long time now. Uponor has been testing the stuff since they first introduced it. Pex has way more testing both lab and real world than almost any other product I can think of. Besides the recirc thing isn't a test issue. We all know it represents a cross connection. The companies that make them know its a cross connection and so does the code review board. They all just choose to overlook the hazards for the sake of expediency and a few bucks.


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## neolitic

I now know everything I need
to know about that Watts system.
It was featured in this week's Despot
flier that came yesterday.


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## Grumpyplumber

neolitic said:


> I now know everything I need
> to know about that Watts system.
> It was featured in this week's Despot
> flier that came yesterday.


 :w00t::laughing:


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## Driftwood

*Funny not,people are droppin like flies.*

There's a list of sick and dying from watts and grundfos re. circs.

STILL WAITING FOR DOCUMANTION GUYS !!!!!!!!!!!!

MAYBE ,THIS IS JUST HOW YOU FEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL


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## CA PLMBR

JamesNLA said:


> This thread is so diluted.
> Here's the deal Mike,
> 
> Metlund D-mand recirc pumps. It's a Taco pump with a Metlund check - impeller - and all the digital electronics. This is not the Watts setup or the Armstrong setup. I love Armstrong pumps but the design of these stupid passive valves down range is a disaster waiting to happen, and simply they work like crap, and will fail within a few years.
> 
> Metlund pres, guy by the name of Larry is a engineer who made a great product with solid engineering to back it up. These are the only recirc pumps that do not void or drastically limit the manufacturers warranty on tankless heaters.
> 
> Here's how they work, Pump gets installed under sink at furthest fixture OR at fixture where you want INSTANT hot water. You have a few options on how to activate the pump. Yes, you can go push button, OR you can also have it so a motion detector located in.....say the bathroom OR in a place mid house, that will detect your movement and activate the pump.
> 
> I have done motion detection and it works perfectly. They are great in guest bathrooms, as most guests are not going to either know or want to know what the little button does.
> 
> Controller / temp:
> So there is a very accurate temperture probe mounted in the impeller housing. BAsically (out of the box settings) when one pushes the button the pump, which BTW is very quiet, activates and moves water from hot side to cold side (nothing new), once that temp probe detects 8 degrees of rise the pump shuts off. 120* water is about 8' feet away, or about 8-15 seconds from the tap with 2gpm raider. Amount of tempered cold water is about 2 - 4 seconds (at most).
> 
> Now, let's say you don't want to wait that extra 10 or so seconds for at temp water, you can open up a cover on the pump, remove the circuit board and there is a little potentiometer, give it an 1/8 th of a turn counter clockwise, and the degree of rise has just increased. Instead of 8* it can go all the way up to about 20. Here's the deal with that, when you look on a graph of the time it takes to get water at temp from the initial warming or leading water versus a few feet behind that, the water is basically at temp, or very close when the pump shuts off. Now, this is a trade off - the hotter you set the pump to shut off, the more hot water has tempered up the cold side. Time to discharge tempered cold water goes up minimally (few more seconds).
> 
> So what happends if you push it again, after the pump stops? Not a damn thing. You already have hot water sitting there. What about 4 or 5 minutes later? The pump will start up and either run for a few seconds and shut off or if the water temp in the pipe has fallen a bit, it will recycle.
> 
> You can't over use it, you can't break it by pushing it over and over. There is thermal protection and if you run it dry, it should take a lick and keep going.
> 
> You need to understand what you are getting into. It's NOT a 24/7 recirc system that so many have come used to, this is the most efficient way to get hot water to your tap with basically no water going down the drain while waiting to get up to temp. There are compromises to it and at first most of my customers are a little unsure of it all, but after a few weeks, they all love it. They actually how they are saving money and wear and tear on their plumbing lines and systems.
> 
> For what your original questions were, this is the facts with this unit. I have installed atleast 200 of these and have had maybe 3 that had issues. If you have a tankless, I reccomend at least an 1/8th of a turn, maybe a little more. Tankless versus tanked have a little but of a difference in the water temp from tap opening to discharge. Tankless take a little bit longer, if the tankless is not properly gassed it can take a little longer on the way to scaulding the homeowner, but that is an entirely different thread.
> 
> So now you are in the know about on demand recirc pump systems. These same setups work very well with a return line too.
> Hope things are well for ya mike
> 
> James


Hey JameNLA,
Thank you for your very detailed and accurate posting, however I was wondering if you read the prior posts. I believe there was quite a bit of substance before yours. I brought up the Metlund in one of my first posts. I appreciate your detail. Your calling the thread diluted was inaccurate I believe there is a lot of worthwhile info here. Thanks again.


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## Mike Finley

I still haven't seen a reply address the issue of cold water taking just as long to run out of the cold side yet. (maybe I missed it)

But could someone logically explain why this is not what will happen?

If I understand this system correctly if for example we have 200 ln ft of hot water pipe between the hotwater heater and the faucet this is why it takes so long to get hot water out of the hot side. Logically if there is 200 ln ft of hot water pipe back to the hot water heater, there is close to 200 ln ft of cold water pipe also. 

If you are pushing the hot water back through the cold water pipes, then in order to get cold water don't you have to let all that hot water back out through the faucet before cold water comes out?

If it takes 60 seconds to get hotwater without this system, won't it take 60 seconds to get cold water after this system is installed?


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## Driftwood

*Mike I live with a grundfos comfort series in My home*

ASs far as explaining why ,I can't. The LITTLE bit of warm water has never been a problem with wife or Myself! We have a 59 Eichler home. Slab on grade.
Maybe the fact the copper is in the ground is a factor. I use a return system on homes ,when wood frame permits. We have never had a problem in the 5 years It;s been in. How many people dissing this product, have daily experience with it in their own own home?


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## nhmaster3015

Driftwood said:


> There's a list of sick and dying from watts and grundfos re. circs.
> 
> STILL WAITING FOR DOCUMANTION GUYS !!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> MAYBE ,THIS IS JUST HOW YOU FEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL


Tool, there probably has not been a case of it happening. But many plumbing boards feel that it is a possibility, however remote. The issue really isn't whether or not there have been any actual reported illnesses. The issue it the plumbing boards rejection of the device. If you read thorough the IPC and the UPC, both codes specifically prohibit a driect connection between the hot and cold water supply and that alone is enough to make the device non compliant. Some states have reviewed the data and decided to make an ammendment to allow them. Our state has not. Would I support a change. Probably yes.


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## Mike Finley

Driftwood said:


> ASs far as explaining why ,I can't. The LITTLE bit of warm water has never been a problem with wife or Myself! We have a 59 Eichler home. Slab on grade.
> Maybe the fact the copper is in the ground is a factor. I use a return system on homes ,when wood frame permits. We have never had a problem in the 5 years It;s been in. How many people dissing this product, have daily experience with it in their own own home?


 
So what you are saying is my logic is flawed then right?

Even if the problem is it takes 60 seconds to get hot water because of the run of pipe, you won't wait 60 seconds for cold water with one of these installed? You are saying you turn on the cold and you would initially have warm water for a few seconds only and then the cold is as cold as it would be without one of these pumps installed?


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## Driftwood

*Mike Your logic is great.*

But missing one thing ! The pump flow is constricted to a small volume. NOTHING like the faucet flow. In the morn, i set the pump to start 20 minutes before I hit the shower. This hot water is SLOWLEY getting to the fixtures .
After shower each morn,I fill the coffee pot with cold water. Yes ,I wait maybe
5 seconds for luke warm water to go down the drain first. hope this helps


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## CA PLMBR

nhmaster3015 said:


> Tool, there probably has not been a case of it happening. But many plumbing boards feel that it is a possibility, however remote. The issue really isn't whether or not there have been any actual reported illnesses. The issue it the plumbing boards rejection of the device. If you read thorough the IPC and the UPC, both codes specifically prohibit a driect connection between the hot and cold water supply and that alone is enough to make the device non compliant. Some states have reviewed the data and decided to make an ammendment to allow them. Our state has not. Would I support a change. Probably yes.


Hey nhmaster,
According to 2003 UPC Illustrated Training Manual Section 603, "cross connection" is defined as "...any actual or potential connection or structural arrangement between a public or private or private potable water system and any other source or system through which it is possible to introduce into any part of the potable system any used water, industrial fluid, gas or substance other than the intended potable water with which the system is supplied. It also goes on to describe 2 types of CC; direct and indirect. I assume you would call hot and cold cross connection direct. In definition "direct cross-connection" according to this code section is "...where the potable water line is directly connected to a pipe line or pressure tank that contains non-potable substances". I would not consider hot water to be consistent with this definition. Please direct me to something in writing that contradicts or reinforces your stance. Thank you. 

Sorry for not having my 2006 UPC but I do not believe that the new title 24 touched on anything on cross connection, but I could be wrong and don't hesitate to correct me.


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## Driftwood

All good info, Need to hit the builders book scource in Baazerkley for the 06 UPC


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## Mike Finley

Another question - in regard to this contamination issue with this cross over valve -

I'm a little fuzzy on the issue. If you have contamination in the hot water tank you have contamination in the hot water lines as they cool down don't you? How is this different then having a hot water tank with contaminated water passing through the cross over valve and back into the hot water tank through the cold water lines?


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## nhmaster3015

Well we have pretty much thrashed the crap out of this subject. Let's talk about waterless urinals.:thumbsup:


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## 22rifle

nhmaster3015 said:


> Well we have pretty much thrashed the crap out of this subject. Let's talk about waterless urinals.:thumbsup:


ROFLOL

And PEX vs. Copper while we are at it.


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## Driftwood

*Gotta love this*

Mike makes a GREAT point, and They run! No intelligent reply ! :clap:


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## Driftwood

Mike Finley said:


> So what you are saying is my logic is flawed then right?
> 
> Even if the problem is it takes 60 seconds to get hot water because of the run of pipe, you won't wait 60 seconds for cold water with one of these installed? You are saying you turn on the cold and you would initially have warm water for a few seconds only and then the cold is as cold as it would be without one of these pumps installed?


 Yes , In our home It took 1 min. 20 seconds for hot shower water in morn. NOW 5 SEC. Pump is programmed to work 5:30 to 6:30 am only 7 days. While the pump is on the cold tap has luke warm water for about 5 seconds.


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## Ron The Plumber

mdshunk said:


> I tried to fix a drippy faucet today...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....three people died.​


Should have called your plumber. He will know how to fix it.


----------



## JamesNLA

CA PLMBR said:


> Hey JameNLA,
> Thank you for your very detailed and accurate posting, however I was wondering if you read the prior posts. I believe there was quite a bit of substance before yours. I brought up the Metlund in one of my first posts. I appreciate your detail. Your calling the thread diluted was inaccurate I believe there is a lot of worthwhile info here. Thanks again.


Hi CA plmbr!!

I called this thread diluted, because that is exactly what it is. There is a cluster fu*k of information, some accurate and some not. I did not say that all the info in the thread was wrong, just simply diluted. I did NOT read every single post. I read alot of them, and still saw that mike was not getting a straight forward answer. I did my best to answer his questions in an accurate and technical manor. It appears that STILL.......didn't get his questions answered. And that's OK, someone else can take a crack at it. BAck to the point, it is my personal opinion the thread is so diluted nothing useful can be taken from it. Less is more. But that's the point of these threads. To help other contractors and share stuff. Speaking of sharing, ya gotta backhoe? I gotta driveway that is in the way of my gas line I'm getting ready to install. This one is way up in the hills of Santa Barbara.

Local news: Costner just bought 7 acres of prime realestate in SB....wants to build a new polo course. Purchase price for the land? 48 million. This job is about a mile away from that. Buy ya lunch at Hamburger Habit!!!!:laughing:


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## nhmaster3015

Yes he did. Right in the beginning his questions were all answered on the first page. From that point on the whole thing went south, all the way to the Antartic


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## Grumpyplumber

*James, in my state they're prohibited.*

*I also dislike Watts for the fact that they are slowly evolving into a Home Depot staple...many of their products are marketed to appeal to laymen, homeowners & DIY's.*

*When I offered my thoughts, up to and including the fact that he should talk to his regular plumber, another member hopped in to complain that I suggested so.*

*I don't know his code, nor do you.*

*His plumber does.*


----------

