# Who runs the Thermostat wire?



## DupuisConst (Apr 20, 2007)

Im a GC in Connecticut and I recently got in an argument with my electrician about who is supposed to run the thermostat wire. Can anyone give me their opinion on this?


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

Thermostat wire? 18/2? 18/3? 18/6? 18/10?
HVAC guy.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

VERY common argument/discussion. 
I've heard both side of the argument and seen both outcomes. 
I leave it up to the plumber/HVAC. I am one of the few electricians in the area who can wire up pretty much any boiler/HVAC. The only thing I stay away from is hydro radiant. That is a very specialized installation, and they usually want to do it themselves anyway.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Generally my tinner does it. On the last two houses he didn't so I did (I am both the GC and EC). It's not worth arguing about. run a 5 wire between the furnace location and the t-stat location, a 2 wire between the furnace location and the a/c compressor location, bury enough slack in the walls so you will be able to pull it out later and you're done. 

The time to discuss this with the subs is greater than the time it takes to do it.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I plan on doing it just in case, but most of the time the HVAC man does it. I generally ask the GC or project manager on the first day walk through who's running it. Another thing that seems to fall through the cracks, that sometimes the electrician has to do, is the bath fan and clothes dryer venting. I really don't care who does it. I just need to know if they want me to do it or not.

In a residential project, I'd never argue about it. You're probably talking about 2 or three dollars worth of thermostat wire. If it is a commercial project, if it's not in the bid request or on an E sheet, I ain't doing it.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*Too funny, just had this debate with a homeowner I did some heat lines for.*
*His electrician said it was my responsibility. (nice of him)*
*I made a couple of points, first I saw it coming and had him re-read my contract..."not including wiring", second...well...it's wire, I'm a plumber.*
*I did another boiler a few months back where the electrician asked me "Are you going to wire the controls?".*
*I asked him "Um...I hired you to wire ...right?"*
*Don't get me wrong, if I'm doing something simple, like replacing a zone head, then yeah of course.*
*I'm not running around the house, up and down stairs drilling holes and pulling wire...trying to figure out what lead goes to what terminal when it's not my job description, if I am including it in a contract...it's subbed to the guys with the right tools and experience.*


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> In a residential project, I'd never argue about it. You're probably talking about 2 or three dollars worth of thermostat wire. If it is a commercial project, if it's not in the bid request or on an E sheet, I ain't doing it.


agreed. just gotta make sure it's not incidated on the M sheet that the EC is responsible for wiring...seen that before...


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Sorry Grumpy, IMO you are quite wrong. It IS in your job description.

What about a simple boiler replacement? Do you hire out the wiring for that?
What about electric water heater replacements? Or just the elements?

EVERY good plumber I know has a limited electrical license to work in the areas requiring one. 
EVERY good plumber I know can wire almost any boiler, as can most good electricians.

Sorry, but the _"I'm a plumber. I don't touch wire."_ mentality bothers me for some reason.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

it shouldn't...you should thank every plumber who says "that's wiring, I'll call an electrician"

why should you be upset that a guy doesn't want to take money away from you?

btw - in NJ, it's actually illegal for a plumber to wire anything over 10V unless he has an Electrical license.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

mahlere said:


> btw - in NJ, it's actually illegal for a plumber to wire anything over 10V unless he has an Electrical license.


Isn't there some sort of limited license? They have a limited electrical license in the areas that I work in also. It permits plumbers to change water heaters and wire boilers and controls and stuff like that. That's not to say, however, that there aren't some plumbers with such a license that have no business touching a wire, in my opinion based on the result of their work. 

There's plenty of work to go around...


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

nope.


but, I will say this...it's not enforced.

Celtic will be along later with the actual text from the Board of Examiners...


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

mahlere said:


> it shouldn't...you should thank every plumber who says "that's wiring, I'll call an electrician"
> 
> why should you be upset that a guy doesn't want to take money away from you?
> 
> btw - in NJ, it's actually illegal for a plumber to wire anything over 10V unless he has an Electrical license.


Because sometimes I have enough to do without having to do someone else's job.

Like I said, real plumbers DO have the license around here, for the few areas that require one.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Sorry Grumpy, IMO you are quite wrong. It IS in your job description.
> 
> What about a simple boiler replacement? Do you hire out the wiring for that?
> What about electric water heater replacements? Or just the elements?
> ...


*Thats your opinion.*
*Here it takes a 5 year apprenticeship and 500 hours of school to be licensed as an electrician.*
*I stated above, on a simple 24 volt line..like a zone head replacement, it's rediculous to hire out an electrician..so fine, no license needed on low voltage here anyway.*
*I could just see it...I miss something on 115 line to a circ...didn't realize the wire was too low guage, in poor condition or wired wrong, it overheats and starts a fire...*
*What do I tell my insurance?*
*What do I say to the fire, electrical inspectors?*
*As far as wiring 3 zones into a taco 503...still no..I've done single zone relays and what looks obvious to you is spaghetti to me.*
*I've seen shorts on wiring from guys that decided they knew enough to wire*
*house current and I ain't gonna be the knucklehead that has to explain to you that I figured I'd save a few bucks to do it myself.*
*Maybe code is different where you are...but wires aren't plumbing.*
*The only semblance to electrical equipment I have is a crude voltage tester that shows me what voltage it is and whether it's DC, AC...or a closed circuit.*
*I have an electrician I keep busy and he doesn't mind the work, in fact I think he appreciates it for some reason, I don't think he minds the "I'm a plumber I don't touch wire" routine.*


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*Also, here, any boiler installs require installation of a co detector directly on the boilers circuit...SPECIFICALLY by a licensed electrician.*
*Most often, boilers are replaced with higher efficiency 85% or better and through the gas co. they get substantial rebates.*
*This requires permits to prove it's done right, which means the plumbing inspector'll wanna know who wired it.*
*I'm not kidding, I could lose my license.*
*Seems like 90% of disagreements here are founded on code differences from state to state that some of us aren't aware of.*
*I make no assumptions that my states code is THE code.*


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> Another thing that seems to fall through the cracks, that sometimes the electrician has to do, is the bath fan and clothes dryer venting.


I (GC) install exhaust fans myself before the HVAC guys show up. They run the vents, when the house gets wired the fans get wired. Can hardly expect the tinner to vent fans that aren't there. The tinner installs a box for the dryer vent and does the venting. It's my job to give him a 2X6 wall to put it in and proper vent pipe access.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

thom said:


> I (GC) install exhaust fans myself before the HVAC guys show up. They run the vents, when the house gets wired the fans get wired. Can hardly expect the tinner to vent fans that aren't there. The tinner installs a box for the dryer vent and does the venting. It's my job to give him a 2X6 wall to put it in and proper vent pipe access.


Sounds like you're on the ball. Good job :thumbsup:


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*LOL...last summer I had a GC try to tell me the "fart" vent was my responsibility.*
*He's an older fella and the attic was very hot where it had to run.*
*His crew was at another job, I just kept him happy and did the deed.*


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mahlere said:


> it shouldn't...you should thank every plumber who says "that's wiring, I'll call an electrician"
> 
> why should you be upset that a guy doesn't want to take money away from you?
> 
> ...



Since I was invited to the dance 

In NJ you have a few choices of what hat you will wear when it comes to being an "electrician".
1 - Apprentice/helper 
2 - Qualified Journeyman
3 - Licensed Electrician
4 - Licensed Electrical Contractor
5 - Exempt Status

#1 and 2 are what category many electricians fall into...with the dominant choice being #1. The reason for the #1 domination is that the #2 selection requires some input to the State and most guys have never heard about "Qualified Journeyman" status ~ so _technically_ they are helpers, but as enforcement is virtually non-existent these guys call themselves electricians anyway.http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/adoption/elado63.htm (See item 1.9 for further clarification)
Also see http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/laws/ElectricRegs.pdf ~ 13:31-1.2
Some of these guys do not even fit under the classification of helper as defined above.

To be come #3, a person needs to take the electrical contractors test. When they pass(if they pass) they are now "licensed"....but are not "licensed" to do ANYTHING. They CANNOT pull permits or run a business.


#4 is the licensed electrical contractor. They have passed the testing requirements from #3, obtained their insurance and bonding, registered their trade name, received a FEIN number, etc. These are the people who can pull permits for a job.

#5 is a strange animal. You can obtain this classification to _some_ LV work...limited to telecommunications work (Article 800). You are "exempt" from "real" electrical work.
http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/electric/telewire.pdf

There is no limited/unlimited, master, etc classifications. 


The running of t-stat wires IS the work of the electrician....however, some people might have more than one hat. I personally know a couple of plumber/electricians who have BOTH their licenses for contracting BOTH trades. To my knowledge, HVAC requires no licensing/testing with the one exception being the actual use of the refrigerants (R-22? I don't know??) ~ although _registration_ with the State would be required under the HICA(Home Improvement Contractor's Act).

A person w/o _any_ sort of licensing status may NOT run ANY wiring WITH the following exceptions(there's more but I'll limit it to these few items ~ the others include Municipal Utilities; mines, ships, railways, etc; the dreaded "Home Owner" permit; etc)



> 45:5A-18 Exempt work or construction.
> Electrical work or construction which is performed on the following facilities or which is by or
> for the following agencies shall not be included within the business of electrical contracting so as to require the
> securing of a business permit under this act:
> ...


http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/laws/ElectricLaw.pdf



How's that mahlere?
As predictable as ever?
:laughing:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

yep...you just need to follow me around all day long, so when I have these conversations in real time, I can say "Celtic will fill in the details, see you tomorrow":laughing:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mahlere said:


> yep...you just need to follow me around all day long, so when I have these conversations in real time, I can say "Celtic will fill in the details, see you tomorrow":laughing:


LOL

You know the price 

BTW, next weekend (8/18) I'll be pie shopping again :thumbup: ....only question:
Who is buying?


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## DupuisConst (Apr 20, 2007)

I guess a lot of it has to do with the area you're in too. Same with framing for me. If I'm in CT, I'm expected to frame the house and put in the windows. If I'm in MA going towards boston, I'm expected to frame, put in windows, and roof the house. It's all included. I have a buddy of mine who is an electrician in vermont and he always puts in the t-stat. down here, its up for grabs. My HVAC guy is doing the wiring at the boiler. He says he knows it gets done right when he does it so he does. Especially because the house we are building right now is because of a house fire that happened because of bad wiring at the old furnace.


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

We have a sparkie in my town who also advertises furnance work. Thats the way he supplements his income in the winter. Actually a couple of years ago i had him come over and clean my boiler. He did an excellent job took it apart cleaned it and finally was running back and fourth from thermostats to boiler. Making sure they were functioning properly. I think who would be the perfect guy on new construction. I don't think he does ac work though.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I worked for 15 years before learning how to wire a simple split-system, air-conditioning set up. It's not that difficult. But I did go to school to learn how to read schematics and it really, really helped me. Keep in mind that 80% of all A/C problems are electrically related. You just have to know how it all works and the sequence in which it works.

Red = Transformer
White = Common or Heat 
Green = Blower Fan 
Yellow = Cooling


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## BigMikeB (Aug 1, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> I worked for 15 years before learning how to wire a simple split-system, air-conditioning set up. It's not that difficult. But I did go to school to learn how to read schematics and it really, really helped me. Keep in mind that 80% of all A/C problems are electrically related. You just have to know how it all works and the sequence in which it works.
> 
> Red = Transformer
> White = Common or Heat
> ...


 
Red for the switched leg of transformer, Green for fan relay, and Yellow for cooling relay are about the only standards the rest all depend on the wire run and the colors in it.


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## MechanicalDVR (Jun 23, 2007)

I only take R for granted most of the time, I agree it all depends on the type of wire that was run.


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## MSSI (Mar 25, 2006)

thom said:


> I (GC) install exhaust fans myself before the HVAC guys show up. They run the vents, when the house gets wired the fans get wired. Can hardly expect the tinner to vent fans that aren't there. The tinner installs a box for the dryer vent and does the venting. It's my job to give him a 2X6 wall to put it in and proper vent pipe access.


We installed fart fan in a new home about a month ago. we showed back up 2 days later after squeezing in a 1 day job and the hvac guys had the flex hooked up and ran from the fans...No questions asked..no discussion..and no one else suggested it.. ?? I was very happily amazed. Usually there is at least some polite discussion about it in our circles. You know kinda like,, did you guys _WANT_ to do the flex .. Or offering to do it in the tone of _we really dont want to do it_:clap:


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## pulpfiction32 (Feb 11, 2007)

the only time we dont duct out our exhaust fans is on commercial jobs. For residential we hang, wire and duct them out. we even supply the vent caps. GC vents the dryer and hood fans. It is also in our contracts that the hvac guys will run their own wires to the panel and we will supply the breakers, they also run thier own t-stat


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

pulpfiction32 said:


> It is also in our contracts that the hvac guys will run their own wires to the panel and we will supply the breakers,.....


That won't fly in NJ - unless the HVAC guy is a licensed EC.
Where are you located?


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Around here, the HVAC guy does, but I was always taught, whatever is a wire is run by an electrician. Speakers, CAT-5/6, and especially garage door opener wires.

Anything ductwork would be HVAC *including* the dang dryer vent.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*I just think it's funny hearing an electrician tell me I'm dodging responsibility when I don't want to wire a boiler.*
*Here we are required to have one to at least connect a co detector off the boiler circuit, plumbing inspectors DO ask.*
*I have a guy I use regularly, might as well have him price it to include the whole thing.*
*More work for him, less frustration for me, it's all good.*


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## pulpfiction32 (Feb 11, 2007)

In lancaster, PA. the hvac guys dont hook it up they just run the wire. We have them run the wire because half of the time during rough in they dont even know what size wire they need.


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## MechanicalDVR (Jun 23, 2007)

pulpfiction32 said:


> In lancaster, PA. the hvac guys dont hook it up they just run the wire. We have them run the wire because half of the time during rough in they dont even know what size wire they need.


How could they bid a job and not know the wire size they need?


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