# firing subs and/or resolving issues



## ultimatetouch (May 27, 2006)

George Z said:


> If sub wants deposit,
> sub gets deposit.
> I don't expect them to finance my projects,
> or tell them how to run their business.
> ...


George either the guy is you (painting contractor) or hes a sub and doesnt have to advertise or finance materials..just supply you with labor. Maybe your the one guy who could make it work..but why on earth would a sub need a downpayment unless he didnt trust you.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

ultimatetouch said:


> Learn to feel right about it dirt...its safer...if the guy doesnt want to start work then find someone who will conform to your policy.


Hmmm......I guess it is safer to have other people finance your projects.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

ultimatetouch said:


> but why on earth would a sub need a downpayment unless he didnt trust you.


Perhaps the sub doesn't want to finance your project. Why should the sub pay for all the Italian Marble, custom order items, etc., out of his own pocket???


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

ultimatetouch said:


> George either the guy is you (painting contractor) or hes a sub and doesnt have to advertise or finance materials..just supply you with labor. Maybe your the one guy who could make it work..but why on earth would a sub need a downpayment unless he didnt trust you.


Simple answer:
If a sub is a convenient way to say employee is one thing.
I think sub is short for sub*CONTRACTOR*.
Being a contractor he has the right to run his business the way he wants.
You have the right to use his contracting services or not.
A sub is not an employee.
Many seem to forget that.



> or hes a sub and doesnt have to advertise or finance materials


Tell me then
Is advertising and materials all it takes to run a business?
I know you know the answer.


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## Mr. D (Jun 7, 2006)

So, had a chat with tile guy sat. Told him if he needs to be around more to oversee his employees quality is up to snuff he needs to be around more. He agreed that they did a poor job and said he wanted to make it right. I then reminded him about some upcoming deadlines (this thursday). I said if you can't do it tell me now. Or tell me you can and be sure to do it. He says "I can tell you I can, but I'll be here monday to continue on and I'll show you I can do it." 
I said "fair enough." Once again trusting his word.

Well, Thursday is just a couple of hours away. Haven't seen any sign of him or his dudes. The axing hour is upon us.

Now, whats the best way of recovering my money from this deadbeat?


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Mr. D said:


> Now, whats the best way of recovering my money from this deadbeat?


Do you have a written contract with this POS??


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## Mr. D (Jun 7, 2006)

yes sir.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Mr. D said:


> yes sir.


Well, it sounds like breach of contract & possibly theft by deception. Bite the bullet & get advice from a competent attorney on the best way to proceed to get your dough back. In addition, Find out if this POS owns property, etc.,


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## ultimatetouch (May 27, 2006)

Brickie said:


> Perhaps the sub doesn't want to finance your project. Why should the sub pay for all the Italian Marble, custom order items, etc., out of his own pocket???



General contractor supplies all that and HO finances it, sub provides labor.


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## ultimatetouch (May 27, 2006)

George Z said:


> Simple answer:
> If a sub is a convenient way to say employee is one thing.
> I think sub is short for sub*CONTRACTOR*.
> Being a contractor he has the right to run his business the way he wants.
> ...


Your right he could run it like he wants thats why he wouldnt be working for me and most general contractors.

I am not saying to buy materials thats crazy...Im saying to provide labor. George you never worked a job where the customer provided materials and you worked with no money down.
I dont even see this as an arguement its just smart business..George you have employees and only do 5% general contracting....nuf said. 

Go ahead everybody keep giving downpayments...it only takes one jerk off for you to wind up upside down. This is a poinless arguement....the dog wags the tail.


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## ultimatetouch (May 27, 2006)

Mr. D said:


> So, had a chat with tile guy sat. Told him if he needs to be around more to oversee his employees quality is up to snuff he needs to be around more. He agreed that they did a poor job and said he wanted to make it right. I then reminded him about some upcoming deadlines (this thursday). I said if you can't do it tell me now. Or tell me you can and be sure to do it. He says "I can tell you I can, but I'll be here monday to continue on and I'll show you I can do it."
> I said "fair enough." Once again trusting his word.
> 
> Well, Thursday is just a couple of hours away. Haven't seen any sign of him or his dudes. The axing hour is upon us.
> ...


Your screwed face it..Im not trying to be mean. I dont like seeing guys get screwed by deadbeats. If you follow Georges way you will get screwed eventually as you are seeing now.


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## ultimatetouch (May 27, 2006)

George Z said:


> Tell me then
> Is advertising and materials all it takes to run a business?
> I know you know the answer.


Wow George you are quite argumentitive. I certainly dont know everything but not giving a sub money down to provide labor is common sense.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

ultimatetouch said:


> General contractor supplies all that and HO finances it, sub provides labor.


Sorry, doesn't always work like that. More often than not a GC will have some form of this blurb in their contract with a sub:

*"Subcontractor shall provide and furnish all labor, materials, tools, supplies, equipment, services, facilities, supervision & administration necessary for the proper and complete performance and acceptance of the following portions of the work:"*


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

The whole money down thing is being blown up into something bigger than it probably should be. It sounds like some guys are just getting noses out of joint over some ethical issue of "financing" somebodies project. (Again)

<Yawn>  Does it really matter? If I agree to 'finance' somebody or they agree or somebody else agrees, what's the point? The only issue is somebody is *agreeing*. That's the center point of all this, if somebody says yes to whatever the terms are, it's done. Just get on with the work. Nobody is pulling a fast one on somebody, as long as before they agree you outline the terms everything is above board, there is a moment when somebody considers the terms and decides yes/no.

We don't pay a cent to a sub until their part of the job passes inspection. Why? Well, why not? It works for me and if a sub agrees to it then what's the difference? We try to work with the same groups of subs over and over again, but if we are using somebody new, I'm not opposed to giving them some money up front. Hey, they don't know me, they are taking some risk on their end, so sure I'll give them something up front -BUT it's going to be handed over to them at the end of the first day, not 4 weeks in advance.:blink: 

Once everybody gets to know everybody, you develope a reputation. Before I went on vacation I told 2 different subs of ours if they wanted to get paid, make sure you fax me your invoice before such and such date because after that I'll be gone for 10 days. Both of them said the same thing "I'm not worried about getting paid from you." Neither of them even bothered faxing me their invoices until after I got back.

I'm very much of the mindset that if a company, no matter who they are can't front some money for their materials, they probably have much bigger issues also. Good, solid companies and people can manage their cash flow. I'd rather work with the solid guys and companies then the fly by nighters who are living from one deposit to the next, just because they are running around in their beater pick up promising to do work cheaper. I'd rather pay a little more and eliminate all the bull sh*t.


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## Millwork & More (Apr 26, 2007)

Oh man that sucks. If sub supplied labor AND materials I can see paying 50% down(Thats how we work) but if you supplied materials you should have broken the payments down. Good luck getting the job done right and getting your money back.:sad:

Luckily you have a contract. When you get home tonight. Document the timeline of events while it is still fresh in your memory. Dont let your emotions:furious: get to you when writing things down. Be very systematic, and honest. The contract with a documented timeline of events will put you in the drivers seat. Use copies of cellphone, fax and email records to back up the timeline of events.

Whenever something goes wrong dont look at it as a mistake. Look at it as a paid education. Take what you learned and come up with SOP to make sure it does not happen again.

Doing something wrong for the first time is a learning experience. Not changing policy to make sure it doesnt happen again, THAT is the mistake.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

ultimatetouch said:


> Your screwed face it..Im not trying to be mean. I dont like seeing guys get screwed by deadbeats. If you follow Georges way you will get screwed eventually as you are seeing now.


Are there no stories of bad general Contractors 
- that take forever to pay
- go out of business
- Have disputes with home owners and see no money.

There are many, many I have heard and experienced.

Why should the sub carry that load?


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

> I'm very much of the mindset that if a company, no matter who they are can't front some money for their materials, they probably have much bigger issues also. Good, solid companies and people can manage their cash flow. I'd rather work with the solid guys and companies then the fly by nighters who are living from one deposit to the next, just because they are running around in their beater pick up promising to do work cheaper. I'd rather pay a little more and eliminate all the bull sh*t.


Very well said.
I never stiffed anyone as a contractor, never been screwed as a sub.
Funny how that worked over 20 years.
Is it coincidence or good luck?
I wasn't always a good businessman but win/win always worked.
The solid guys you mention run some sort of a business
and we know it doesn't take the $18 $25 per hour that most subs get to run it (solidly).


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## ultimatetouch (May 27, 2006)

George Z said:


> Are there no stories of bad general Contractors
> - that take forever to pay
> - go out of business
> - Have disputes with home owners and see no money.
> ...


This is true. They ought to give the contractor the benifit of the doubt though George were not all bad.
Hey George you seem like a real sweat heart to work for...if I am ever a painter looking for work in Toronto I am going to look up Echo painting and ask for George.


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## King of Crown (Oct 12, 2005)

tnt specialty said:


> We never, ever, give "deposits" or "down-payments"; It's just not good business. If a subcontractor wants a deposit, that's a MAJOR red flag! It indicates one &/or two things; Lack of financial ability, &/or lack of trust. Niether are good elements in a contracting situation.
> 
> Likewise, as a subcontractor, we would never dream of asking for a deposit.


You have to get a deposit if material is being ordered. 50% minimum. If I can't get a deposit if I am ordering material, I am gone.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

ultimatetouch said:


> This is true. They ought to give the contractor the benifit of the doubt though George were not all bad.
> Hey George you seem like a real sweat heart to work for...if I am ever a painter looking for work in Toronto I am going to look up Echo painting and ask for George.


Thanks I am blushing...:laughing: 
Ecopainting is the name

There are many great contractors
most in Contractortalk are anyway :thumbsup:


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