# Asphalt thickness



## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

MBConst said:


> Don't you think determining the depth of asphalt is beyond a reasonable expectation for a contractor? This is why they have a provision in the specs for unforeseen conditions. Subsurface conditions are next to impossible to clarify prior to a bid. My thinking is if the owner knew - he would have put it in the plans and specs. He left it open because he thinks that's a way out. If I complained about there being 16 trees to remove instead of 5 I thought I saw on the print, I would agree that I am out of luck - the trees are there for all to see. Short of a Geo Tech report - and even that sometimes doesn't designate asphalt depth, there is no way of knowing subsurface conditions. This is a public works bid - no one, in the thirty years of doing this business, has set up traffic control, brought out a saw and demo hammer, removed a section of asphalt, then patch it back - just to determine depth of existing. First of all, you need proper permits to set up a cone in the road. It just doesn't happen that way.


Typically they will "core" it in several locations to gain an average depth. If no depth is given on the plans, your best bet is to specify what depth you are bidding it at. Communicating what your number represents eliminates confusion when a change order is necessary. If the plans do not specify, then it is a guess, and no one should be expected to bid based on a guess. The only trick is that every bidder should be bidding on the same "guess", or else the bidding process is not fair. Ultimately, it is up to the municipality to specify a thickness to ensure all bids are equal. We've all been there, and on smaller jobs its not a big deal, but you start tearing out a lot of footage and a guy starts losing money in a hurry.
Good Luck!!!:thumbsup:


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

JDavis21835 said:


> Saw or demo hammer? Ive seen an arrow board and core drill used plenty of times to determine depth of asphalt. Maybe they were just a mirage?


 I agree, you go to the job on a sunday an core it, thats what the contractors do here in ohio, but dont get caught.


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## user56890 (Jan 18, 2010)

Got a change order for the work. I don't think most of you understand the public works bidding process. For those of you that made sense in your response - Thank you. For those of you that pushed blame and made me feel like an idiot because I "bid" incorrectly $%#@ You.

Thought I could get some intelligent response on this site - apparently not. You people are like a bunch of old ladies gossiping and demeaning.

I'm outta here - trying to find a site with intelligence.


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## Ayerzee (Jan 4, 2009)

MBConst said:


> I'm outta here - trying to find a site with intelligence.


Later


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## Upchuck (Apr 7, 2009)

If you're going to ask the forum a question, you should be prepared for people to disagree with you. Also, you are being to sensitive. Nobody insulted you, they disagreed with you.

As far as your original question i think it may depend on the part of the country you work in. In my area it seems like many companies working public jobs live off change orders. They bid low & then pray for change orders. If I were bidding these types of jobs I would definitely core road if asphalt thickness wasn't specified. Due diligence never hurts.

This practice could be changing due to the lack of state money. On a local job a contractor wanted a an extra of $400,000 to go 70' of deep sewer due to all different utilities in the way. The town took that part of the job along with another part of the job & re-bid them. The original contractor sued the town but lost the case. I have a feeling this may be the beginning of municipalities cracking down on change orders.


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## spydeere (Dec 8, 2009)

...if it was up to me, User would never have gotten his change order for the extra depth, lots of sympathy,,but no cash.

my favourite line to a contractor who has under bid a job and then wants to add on extras for something he should have seen,,,,"did you review the site prior to bidding?" 

Fortunately in our contracts we include a spec that covers variations for the depth of asphalt, it must on average be over 15mm of what is stated in the plans and they are entitled to an increase of 15% of the bid item price.

Where no asphalt depth is specified we pay by the ton using weigh tickets.

All our contracts have bore hole logs, but never nearly enough, indicating depth of asphalt. If a contractor is smart he would get out and core the road for his own good add the extra costs into his bid price.

Last contract I was on, the Contractor was given 2 days to core 18 miles of highway to determine the asphalt thickness and subsurface conditions and then warranty the highway for 7 years. I have a meeting with the government coming up, this will be addressed as not being fair to any contractor to properly bid a contract. I suspect the Contractor increased his prices accordingly. Still not a good way to do business, not for the government nor for the you the tax paying citizen.


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## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

user56890 said:


> Got a change order for the work. I don't think most of you understand the public works bidding process. For those of you that made sense in your response - Thank you. For those of you that pushed blame and made me feel like an idiot because I "bid" incorrectly $%#@ You.
> 
> Thought I could get some intelligent response on this site - apparently not. You people are like a bunch of old ladies gossiping and demeaning.
> 
> I'm outta here - trying to find a site with intelligence.


Gotta love the sweet talk up front when you need us, and then responses like this when you get what you wanted in the first place. 

Sounds like you got lucky, but as Day said, other bidders on the project should be hounding the municipality that let this one slide. Come in low, talk your way out high is not the best way to go about doing business. Mistakes happen, but change orders like this open the door to unfair bidding practices:thumbsup:


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

To paraphrase my father, "Piss-poor planning on your part does not constitute a change-order on mine".


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

user56890 said:


> Got a change order for the work. I don't think most of you understand the public works bidding process...


Yeah.......I'm sure you did. 
Most of us understand enough to know that a guy wondering on Monday afternoon how to go about bounding a virtually unsupportable changed condition claim against a public agency doesn't have a legally issued Change Order in hand by close-of-business Thursday.
Now will you tell us the one about the pretty girl who lives in the woods with the seven little men.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

user56890 said:


> I'm outta here - trying to find a site with intelligence.


may the force be with you!


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## wheeler (Feb 8, 2009)

research. make very certain its not expressly or reasonably inferable in those plans / specs somewhere. documents are completely silent on existing road thickness. if so, start with documentation from pre-award, clarifications to the rfp in writing but not in the contract or notes from a pre-bid. other sources are reference documents in the plans / specs such as public works green book, public records that can be obtained under "freedom of information" act such as as-built records, dot standard specs for the class road, etc.


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## ch0mpie (Nov 30, 2005)

user56890 said:


> This is a public works bid - no one, in the thirty years of doing this business, has set up traffic control, brought out a saw and demo hammer, removed a section of asphalt, then patch it back - just to determine depth of existing. First of all, you need proper permits to set up a cone in the road. It just doesn't happen that way.


We do this all the time, especially for city jobs.


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## Vinny (Jul 21, 2007)

user56890 said:


> I am removing asphalt from a road. The plans don't specify a depth of existing and the pay item is per SY removal. I usually figure existing to be 4 to 6 inches when it doesn't specify. I am running into asphalt that is 8 to 12 inches thick. How do I present this to the owner? Obviously it is taking additional trucking time, machine time, and we are using a breaker when typically we wouldn't. I am confident in my additional cost calculations - my question is how to present it to the owner (a municipality) without getting it on the defensive.


I didnt take the time to read all the posts but the first thing you need to consider is using a milling machine and I would submit to the municipality theres no way for them or you to have known the thickness


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