# OK i'll ask anyway ... (remodeling estimate)



## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

Just did a remodeling job (1st so far) last week and just wanted to see if i can get some estimates on what you guys would charge for what i did ... OK i had the homeowner get the cabinets himself .... i could get at good prices and probably make a nice profit but don't want to move too fast just to have more headache .... so here is what i did ... i moved 3 outlets just about a foot ea so they wouldn't fall behind the granite backsplash (minor connections because wires were too short),i disconected the plumbing from the sink,i re-sheetrocked about 24 sq ft,i installed the cabinets completely(hardware etc)which covered about 30 linear ft of wallspace,i hardwired the oven,hooked up the water to fridge,hardwired the dishwasher,set them all in place,and made the homeowners very happy.... I know this may be hard to estimate unless you see it for yourself but maybe you can just give me a ballpark #. thanks O and i already charged a very good price for them because they were friends and it was my 1st job but i want to know what i should be charging for future reference.... i also did not put any money out of my pocket for material and i did the job in a very wealthy town on the Jersey shore... most of my jobs will be around that area and north to central Jersey


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

I'm sorry am i in the wrong section because i see 56 views but no replys  no one has at least an idea?


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## jbfan (Apr 1, 2004)

How did you make up for the shortness of the wires?


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

jbfan said:


> How did you make up for the shortness of the wires?


 Stretched them  No we added wire. All in all the electric took about 2 hrs to do not including appliances


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## sawdusted (Mar 24, 2005)

sorry man ,
I started in on a reply last nite and my machine crapped out .I would have to say the reason your not getting a reply is because there is no good answer.you made some money and want to make some more,thats what its all about. we have all started out at some point and learning what works for us individualy in different areas, different overhead .The thing is this is a good point for you to start developing some good habits... keeping track of each job you do,how long it takes you to do different tasks so you can look back to speed up your future estimating practices. Also try to keep track of your expenses (overhead). if you read through some threads in different areas you will find some of the answers that you are looking for. It sounds as though you must have some experience in the trades.Welcome to the school of life, the answers are there have some paitence, do your homework, and try to stay organized.
Dan


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## jbfan (Apr 1, 2004)

How did you do the splices?


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

sawdusted said:


> sorry man ,
> I started in on a reply last nite and my machine crapped out .I would have to say the reason your not getting a reply is because there is no good answer.you made some money and want to make some more,thats what its all about. we have all started out at some point and learning what works for us individualy in different areas, different overhead .The thing is this is a good point for you to start developing some good habits... keeping track of each job you do,how long it takes you to do different tasks so you can look back to speed up your future estimating practices. Also try to keep track of your expenses (overhead). if you read through some threads in different areas you will find some of the answers that you are looking for. It sounds as though you must have some experience in the trades.Welcome to the school of life, the answers are there have some paitence, do your homework, and try to stay organized.
> Dan


 Thanks for the reply ..... I am a cabinet installer and i can do sheetrock(not that it's hard to learn). I figured the most work was with the cabinets so i feel good about having that covered. I have a guy do electric and plumbing but i also help with that seeing as the cabinets don't go in until last ... I've always wanted to be a remodeling contractor because i knew that was where the money was at not having to deal with the middleman but i had no one to do plumbing and electric until now. I didn't want to just hire anyone to do this because if they don't do it right it would all fall back on my name.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

jbfan said:


> How did you do the splices?


 :cheesygri come on man. I know your an electrician but i'm not asking if i did the job right. I used a butter knife


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

MANTUS said:


> ...I used a butter knife...


  
THANKYOUFORCALLINGSEWELLGENERALCONTRACTINGANDHAVE YOURSELFANICEDAYCLICKBUZZZZZZZZ


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

mikesewell said:


> THANKYOUFORCALLINGSEWELLGENERALCONTRACTINGANDHAVE YOURSELFANICEDAYCLICKBUZZZZZZZZ


 Any advice for me? I see your a GC and also that your in NY and i'm in NJ so no need to worry about me taking away work from you (not directed at you personally) ... I think JB thinks i should leave the electric for the electricians  ... Actually you just helped me and didn't even have to write anymore. I was just reading and still am reading your replys to a post and you really seem to know the business so i will be reading more :Thumbs:


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

That sounds easy enough  I should be rolling in the dough in no time


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## 2b2s (Apr 5, 2005)

I think that it is a dangerous practice to splice wires inside of a wall space. The caps can come off wires over time. If nothing else add a box to splice inside of, because as you said it is your name.

Just my 2 cents,

2b2s


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I'll give you a range, but first you need to help me by backing out what it cost you for the plumbing sub and the electrical sub and the permits. If you spliced wires and buried them in the wall... well the only way to put it is you need to get out of the business if you feel that doing that is what you should be doing to your customers. I'm really hoping to hear you didn't really do that, and I'm even more curious how it passed inspection if you did.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Mike, it was inside of the wall, the inspectors probably missed it.
Just an aside, we do this all of the time on boats. With stranded wire and heatshrink crimp connectors, it's perfectly legal in all voltages.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

2b2s said:


> I think that it is a dangerous practice to splice wires inside of a wall space. The caps can come off wires over time. If nothing else add a box to splice inside of, because as you said it is your name.
> 
> Just my 2 cents,
> 
> 2b2s


 A junction box yeah i know. Friend didn't think it needed to be done but i thought it should have been. i will be using them from now on. thanks


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> I'll give you a range, but first you need to help me by backing out what it cost you for the plumbing sub and the electrical sub and the permits. If you spliced wires and buried them in the wall... well the only way to put it is you need to get out of the business if you feel that doing that is what you should be doing to your customers. I'm really hoping to hear you didn't really do that, and I'm even more curious how it passed inspection if you did.


 Well it didn't pass because there was no inspection because no permits and no licenses. Before getting on my case just know that i was not in charge of this job. I basically took on the bulk of the job myself and had friends do plumbing,electric. We all know the homeowner and they didn't worry about this stuff. The guy is a retired cop and now US marshall,he doesn't care about permits because inspections only slow down the work. As far as the electric and plumbing licenses,he doesn't need them for his house so didn't even worry but the junction box is definitally something i would have done,but he didn't care.... I got cash. so now how much cash would you take with no overhead (besides gas) for this work?


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## boogie (Jul 30, 2004)

upon readind this thread the tone changed from being a lagit job to a sidejob.
first thing i would say to you mantus is if you are serious about making this your profession and livelyhood you need to change the old train of thought on it all

just because the owner doesnt want it you have to think of protecting them from themselves 
there is an incredible amount of liability involved make that one of your top priorities
as far as the plumbing and electrical friend or not if its not done to the code (that is a minimum)get someone else 

not trying to bust your chops just think if you are serious start to think that way get insured, pull proper permits and have all inspections covers your b*tt and the cost and time is nothing compared to the consiquences

if not hell keep it up i dont mind doing insurance bids just cant stand the smell of kilzit


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## boogie (Jul 30, 2004)

> so now how much cash would you take with no overhead (besides gas) for this work?


to answer this part ......
NONE

wouldn't do the job if its not on the up and up too much to loose for a little cash


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Contracting in FL without a license is now a FELONY. I'm sure that other states will follow.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Since I moderate a few forum areas on a few other boards, I notice that guys asking "how much would you have charged" questions are really making several statements rather than asking a legitimate question.

1) They really don't care what you would have charged.
2) They want to show all legitimate contractors how "smart" they are by cutting corners and performing below minimum code standards in order to offer the customer a super cheap price. 
3) They wish praise from legitimate contractors for such activity in order to further legitimize themselves. 
4) When you constructively and respectfully point out faults, they try to act like they already knew what you told them. 

It's a pattern that has repeated itself dozens of times before, and this thread followed the same M.O. almost to the tee.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

I like how these guys never seem to have the courtesy (?) to mention how much they charged for the work in the first place. I say why tell them anything.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

PipeGuy said:


> I like how these guys never seem to have the courtesy (?) to mention how much they charged for the work in the first place. I say why tell them anything.


Sure. Plus, the original description of the scope of the work sounded more like the way a homeowner would describe things. A genunie contractor asking this question in a legitimate manner could have/would have written a quite long dissertation describing the work if he really wanted accurate input from others. Reminds me of a "I need a few plugs replaced" phonecall I got a few weeks ago that actually involved totally rewiring a duplex.


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## sawdusted (Mar 24, 2005)

Felony!!
I'd like to see ny require a license,
$35. for a dba ,hopefully smart enough to get some insurance, a skill saw and a pick up truck your in buisness. New guys every where... in 96 I ran in to a guy who couldn't even tape dry wall ,he got fired flipped fries for a while then went in to the contracting buisness... I just don't get it.
Dan


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

boogie said:


> upon readind this thread the tone changed from being a lagit job to a sidejob.
> first thing i would say to you mantus is if you are serious about making this your profession and livelyhood you need to change the old train of thought on it all
> 
> just because the owner doesnt want it you have to think of protecting them from themselves
> ...


I hear you... Thanks for the advice


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

Teetorbilt said:


> Contracting in FL without a license is now a FELONY. I'm sure that other states will follow.


 so what does it take to get a contractors license?


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

mdshunk said:


> Since I moderate a few forum areas on a few other boards, I notice that guys asking "how much would you have charged" questions are really making several statements rather than asking a legitimate question.
> 
> 1) They really don't care what you would have charged.
> 2) They want to show all legitimate contractors how "smart" they are by cutting corners and performing below minimum code standards in order to offer the customer a super cheap price.
> ...


I really don't know what your trying to say. I have to say that i don't understand you at all ... I want to know what a job like that would cost so i know for future reference. i'm not even going to waste my time with this one


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

PipeGuy said:


> I like how these guys never seem to have the courtesy (?) to mention how much they charged for the work in the first place. I say why tell them anything.


 Didn't know i had to mention that sorry. We charged 2,250 for 10hrs of work. Now what else should i have mentioned?


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

sawdusted said:


> Felony!!
> I'd like to see ny require a license,
> $35. for a dba ,hopefully smart enough to get some insurance, a skill saw and a pick up truck your in buisness. New guys every where... in 96 I ran in to a guy who couldn't even tape dry wall ,he got fired flipped fries for a while then went in to the contracting buisness... I just don't get it.
> Dan


 Well here is the way i see it. I know alot and i mean ALOT of GCs who don't have a clue how to read a tape ... ok they can read a tape but not much of anything else and they make tons of money as GCs so now tell me where is the GC school i need to attend in order to become a GC. Your right there isn't one. I'm a carpenter. I am great at installing cabinets,good with sheetrock,and i do crown molding better than guy with 20yrs in the business. I'll have to post a pick sometime of my work. SO NOW why can't i become a GC and these limp********************s can? Because i need insurance.. Covered ..... I need permits ... NO problem ..... I need to know how to bull******************** customers ... Ummm sorry i'm not good at that one. I'll let you know how business goes :Thumbs:


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

MANTUS said:


> ...now tell me where is the GC school i need to attend in order to become a GC. Your right there isn't one...


Many colleges offer 2 year degrees in construction technology, civil engineering technology, and construction management. Add several years of experience to that, and you have a good start.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

mikesewell said:


> Many colleges offer 2 year degrees in construction technology, civil engineering technology, and construction management. Add several years of experience to that, and you have a good start.


 yes but i don't NEED to attend them. Too many people with less knowledge than me make a killing. I have a son and a wife,do you think i am really going to spend time(could be making money) and money going to school because someone tells me that is the RIGHT way to do it? please give me a break. It's not that hard. I am not going to argue about this anymore because i see i am getting nowhere and deffinitaly not learning a damn thing here. I just asked the same question on one of my bodybuilding boards and you just wouldn't believe all the help i get. Like i said people are so scared of someone taking away their work. I see it all the time


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

MANTUS said:


> ...people are so scared of someone taking away their work. I see it all the time...


Yeah, I'm definitely $#!TTING my pants over it. :cheesygri

THANKYOUFORCALLINGSEWELLGENERALCONTRACTINGANDHAVE YOURSELFANICEDAY


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

mikesewell said:


> Yeah, I'm definitely $#!TTING my pants over it. :cheesygri
> 
> THANKYOUFORCALLINGSEWELLGENERALCONTRACTINGANDHAVEYOURSELFANICEDAY


I already told you,you live in NY you have no reason to be scared  Allright man,let's just forget i ever made this post. friends?


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

MANTUS, Here a County Residential Contractors license requires a minimum of 5 years of verifiable supervisory experience in the field + tests + all of the usual business trappings.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

Teetorbilt said:


> MANTUS, Here a County Residential Contractors license requires a minimum of 5 years of verifiable supervisory experience in the field + tests + all of the usual business trappings.


 well it's a good thing that's not the case here because plenty of people would be out of work


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## Rusty Nails (Apr 3, 2005)

MANTUS said:


> well it's a good thing that's not the case here because plenty of people would be out of work


From what I'm reading here, Your going to be the next one out of work.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I'm a little bit puzzled why a person would post for advice on a contractor's board and not take the advice? Or at least acknowledge its merits? I guess that might be a question for a psychology forum and not this one.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

MANTUS said:


> I know alot of GCs who don't have a clue how to read a tape ... ok they can read a tape but not much of anything else and they make tons of money


Otay Alpalpa :Thumbs: 



MANTUS said:


> I'm a carpenter...better than guy with 20yrs in the business.


  



MANTUS said:


> I need to know how to bull******************** customers ... Ummm sorry i'm not good at that one.


Don't bother trying to develop that skill. It won't help you at all. If you think it's helping others, you're wrong. First, learn how to listen. Second, learn how to listen better. You'd be surprised how far listening alone will take you. 



MANTUS said:


> Too many people with less knowledge than me make a killing. It's not that hard.


Dude, if you're feelin' froggy, by all means leap. Gather up all the money you need and put it out there -at risk. But if you're thinking all those nitwit GC's you know are some kind of indicator about how easy it is too make it then you are really on the wrong track. If they are as dumb as you say I'd bet they know less about measuring how much money they're making than they do about measuring a piece of lumber.

If yopu're serious about going on your own, take the time to sit down with pencil and paper and really sketch out what it'll take. Make a list of every single thing you'll need, every cost you'll have. Very few (if any) small contractors make it without a comprehensive understanding of what their business entails.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

mdshunk said:


> I'm a little bit puzzled why a person would post for advice on a contractor's board and not take the advice? Or at least acknowledge its merits? I guess that might be a question for a psychology forum and not this one.


 And i'm a little puzzled why no one answered my question. I didn't ask if i did the job the way YOU would do it. Read the post and then talk to me


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

Florida,NY,Mid atlantic,GA,Colorado .... I guess we do business different here in Jersey


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

MANTUS said:


> Like i said people are so scared of someone taking away their work. I see it all the time


That must be why no one answered your question...they're all scared. By nature, contractors are a bunch of scaredy cats that don't take chances.
Or maybe everyone REALLY wants to help you succeed over the LONG RUN and are prodding you to do the footwork yourself. After all, your LONG TERM success is what'll most help you and the misses and Mantus, Jr. - not charging one price or another on the next job. Get your head in the business side and do the math. After that, pitch yourself and the prices YOU'VE determined. It's a good thing.


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## jbfan (Apr 1, 2004)

The reason I didn't answer your question is I'm just an electrician. All I want to know when I see other people have done something electrical , is have they done it right. If you are not going to do it right, or advise someone to do it the correct and safe way, then you should not be asking the questions.


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## sawdusted (Mar 24, 2005)

sawdusted said:


> sorry man ,
> I started in on a reply last nite and my machine crapped out .I would have to say the reason your not getting a reply is because there is no good answer.you made some money and want to make some more,thats what its all about. we have all started out at some point and learning what works for us individualy in different areas, different overhead .The thing is this is a good point for you to start developing some good habits... keeping track of each job you do,how long it takes you to do different tasks so you can look back to speed up your future estimating practices. Also try to keep track of your expenses (overhead). if you read through some threads in different areas you will find some of the answers that you are looking for. It sounds as though you must have some experience in the trades.Welcome to the school of life, the answers are there have some paitence, do your homework, and try to stay organized.
> Dan


slow down a minuite, don't get excited.....the answers are all there .


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

sawdusted said:


> slow down a minuite, don't get excited.....the answers are all there .


 Ha Ha you know that's the only answer i got that's worth a damn  ... I'm listening to everyone here,even if i don't agree with them. I may have another job coming up and if i can't do the electric work right i will get my cousin to do it. I agree that the work should be done right but i don't agree on always getting permits.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

jbfan said:


> The reason I didn't answer your question is I'm just an electrician. All I want to know when I see other people have done something electrical , is have they done it right. If you are not going to do it right, or advise someone to do it the correct and safe way, then you should not be asking the questions.


 what? you lost me


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## Rusty Nails (Apr 3, 2005)

MANTUS said:


> Ha Ha you know that's the only answer i got that's worth a damn  ... I'm listening to everyone here,even if i don't agree with them. I may have another job coming up and if i can't do the electric work right i will get my cousin to do it. I agree that the work should be done right but i don't agree on always getting permits.


No need for permits man............ Just do it.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

Rusty Nails said:


> No need for permits man............ Just do it.


 no need for permits if your building a hut :Thumbs: ... go get me a 4 by 4 sheet of straw LOL


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

I don't believe a permit would be needed if i were keeping the existing structure. Am i correct. Say i were to just rip out and replace cabinets,would i need a permit? I know even minor plumbing and electric i would but didn't think i did for cabinets


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## housedocs (Jan 10, 2005)

Whether or not you need permits is dependant upon where you're at. In alot of places in the country permits not only aren't needed, if you went to the courthouse and asked about buying one, they just give you a dull look and say HUH? I worked on the mayor's house in one small burb here abouts and there were no permits pulled at all, none required by any governing authority. Sad but true, however there are steps in the works to try and remedy this situatoin in the rural areas of Mo where I'm located and I think this is great, my only complaint it should have been done years ago.

All that being said, regardless of whether permits are pulled or not, if you want to get in the game and thrive and make money and get customer referrals, always, always, do all work according to nationaly recognized codes and do it just as if you were right in the middle of the city and each phase had to pass inspection. By doing this you're giving the customer a quality job and you'll be able to sleep good at night. :Thumbs: That's my .02¢


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## housedocs (Jan 10, 2005)

MANTUS said:


> I don't believe a permit would be needed if i were keeping the existing structure. Am i correct. Say i were to just rip out and replace cabinets,would i need a permit? I know even minor plumbing and electric i would but didn't think i did for cabinets



In alot of the small towns we work in around here that would be true. Here in the little town I live in, no permit is required to completely remove the existing siding on a home and replace it with sheeting, fanfold and vinyl siding. But if they want 4 sq ft porch built it requires a permit. Same thing with interior work, we can completely gut a place right to the studs, rewire, new plumbing, the works, and still no permit required, but add a couple of small walls like for a bedroom closet and you need a permit. Go figure!  That's why I'd like to see a uniform statewide minimum code come into effect. However many small towns don't have the resources to hire a qualified bldg inspector so who kows if this would accomplish any thing or not. Regulation does need to come to the remodeling industry in the rural areas of the country.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

housedocs said:


> In alot of the small towns we work in around here that would be true. Here in the little town I live in, no permit is required to completely remove the existing siding on a home and replace it with sheeting, fanfold and vinyl siding. But if they want 4 sq ft porch built it requires a permit. Same thing with interior work, we can completely gut a place right to the studs, rewire, new plumbing, the works, and still no permit required, but add a couple of small walls like for a bedroom closet and you need a permit. Go figure!  That's why I'd like to see a uniform statewide minimum code come into effect. However many small towns don't have the resources to hire a qualified bldg inspector so who kows if this would accomplish any thing or not. Regulation does need to come to the remodeling industry in the rural areas of the country.


 I live in the city so i'm sure permits are required. I have a licensed electrician and plumber if needed so i'm glad i have that covered. I am going to look at my second job tomorrow around the same area i did my 1st one. after that i'm going to talk with my friend who is a GC and i will eventually be getting and selling the cabinets from him. thanks for the info


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

MANTUS said:


> Well it didn't pass because there was no inspection because no permits and no licenses. We all know the homeowner and they didn't worry about this stuff. The guy is a retired cop and now US marshall,he doesn't care about permits because inspections only slow down the work.


Your statement explains alot about your personal views on legal, ethical, and business matters and just plain lack of personal pride that I wouldn't even know where to start. But without going into details, if you let homeowners personalities shape your buisiness and building practices you're nothing more than a whore or a homeowner's *****. 



MANTUS said:


> I got cash. so now how much cash would you take with no overhead (besides gas) for this work?


I wouldn't be able to do the job for any amount of money because I set my policies not homeowners. I don't work for homeowners who want to take shortcuts like that. I'm a professional and have standards and practices that I don't compromise. Besides I wouldn't risk my families financial well being over one job.


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> ...I don't compromise...


:Thumbs:


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> Your statement explains alot about your personal views on legal, ethical, and business matters and just plain lack of personal pride that I wouldn't even know where to start. But without going into details, if you let homeowners personalities shape your buisiness and building practices you're nothing more than a whore or a homeowner's *****.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be able to do the job for any amount of money because I set my policies not homeowners. I don't work for homeowners who want to take shortcuts like that. I'm a professional and have standards and practices that I don't compromise. Besides I wouldn't risk my families financial well being over one job.


 OK that's great. Now i know how you feel .... aaaaand i guess it's back to watching TV for me .. thanks a bunch PAL :Thumbs:


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## shopdust (Apr 9, 2005)

At this point in your career, think like a businessman. You have a limited number of hours to sell and what will you get for them. How many hours were you in this job?
(BTW, I only use union or union trained electrical folks, the yellow pages are full of attornies who are all to happy to seperate me from what I got --- One million Liability don't really go far when a child is injured)


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## Rusty Nails (Apr 3, 2005)

MANTUS said:


> no need for permits if your building a hut :Thumbs: ... go get me a 4 by 4 sheet of straw LOL


I know a guy just like you.

He's an idiot too..........

Here's one of thirteen 5.5 million dollar huts I'm building, Mr cash for remodling.


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## sawdusted (Mar 24, 2005)

Nice hut rusty,
not one shack like it up here, I'm definitly in the wrong market area.
Dan


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## wasdifferent (Dec 18, 2004)

WOW.  

There may be a good lesson here. Let me think about it for a while...


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Mantus, 

I'm from Jersey, too, - - just outside of Trenton, - - most towns (individually) in Jersey each require their own local contractor/home improvement license (usually just fill out the paperwork and pay anywhere between $25 - $150/year). Best to do it legit, - - simple enough, - - why look over your shoulder? Generally the rule that would get you is that any job over $500 requires a permit. Homeowner's are allowed to do their own work if they sign off on all responsibility, - - permit still required. Best too always just get the permits, - - charge accordingly, - - and at the same time establish a 'repoire' with your local inspectors.

Be forewarned that a 'State' GC/home improvement license will be required starting Jan. 1st, 2006. You must register at least 3 or 4 months in advance to get it on time, - - or you can't do any work in NJ, - - period. I already have mine. Fill out the paperwork, - - proof of insurance, - - criminal background check, - - etc., etc., - - and $90. This will get you a NJ Contractor's registration # which must be displayed on trucks, business cards, etc.

Supposedly, this will be strongly enforced, - - $10,000 first time fine. I also heard they are 'licking their chops' to be able to confiscate your truck and tools right on the spot (I don't know if that part is true or not).

Have to go (dinner's burning), - - but I'll be glad to try to answer any questions for you later. Tom R


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Tom, we've been doing this for years.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

Tom R said:


> Mantus,
> 
> I'm from Jersey, too, - - just outside of Trenton, - - most towns (individually) in Jersey each require their own local contractor/home improvement license (usually just fill out the paperwork and pay anywhere between $25 - $150/year). Best to do it legit, - - simple enough, - - why look over your shoulder? Generally the rule that would get you is that any job over $500 requires a permit. Homeowner's are allowed to do their own work if they sign off on all responsibility, - - permit still required. Best too always just get the permits, - - charge accordingly, - - and at the same time establish a 'repoire' with your local inspectors.
> 
> ...


best advice i got so far  Thanks alot man. I plan on doing everything legit because i would like this to be a career. I really appreciate the info,i will definitally be looking into that. thanks again


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

Rusty Nails said:


> I know a guy just like you.
> 
> He's an idiot too..........
> 
> ...


Yeah and i've never seen million dollar homes before ... Nice house but how hard is that to build and a builder could install those cabinets by himself. Come on man,i come from years of high end cabinets with 6-10 layers of crown. I could install those cabinets with toe and base trim the windows and hardwood floor all in a days work.... nice kitchen though :Thumbs: a basic builder kitchen if i ever saw one. You couldn't even give the homeowner granite? Let me guess,the house isn't even sold yet ... here's one of my bathrooms.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

shopdust said:


> At this point in your career, think like a businessman. You have a limited number of hours to sell and what will you get for them. How many hours were you in this job?
> (BTW, I only use union or union trained electrical folks, the yellow pages are full of attornies who are all to happy to seperate me from what I got --- One million Liability don't really go far when a child is injured)


 Would probably be in your best interest to incorporate ... no? .. yes,it's probably best to use well trained electricians for major work .. journeymen that is


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Teetorbilt said:


> Tom, we've been doing this for years.


Yeah, - - I'm actually looking forward to it, - - it should get rid of a lot of the 'fly-by-nights', - - just seems like it should involve some heavy testing, too. Maybe that's next. You wouldn't believe how many guys around here call themselves contractors, - - and have absolutely no technical knowledge whatsoever, - - and could care less, - - long as they get paid before the next rainfall or windstorm.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

MANTUS, 

That's one beautiful job, - - I know you're at least 'installing' the cabs and crown, - - are you making them too? Do you have your own shop? I've spent the last several years 'setting up shop', - - at this point I've got most of the equipment I need, - - next (hopefully by fall), - - I'll be doubling the size of the shop, - - it's only about 20 X 20 now. I plan on slowly phasing out of most of the remodeling and just doing cabinetry, built-in's, wainscoting, libraries, etc. No particular rush, - - just the old 'grass-is-always-greener' syndrome.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

Tom R said:


> MANTUS,
> 
> That's one beautiful job, - - I know you're at least 'installing' the cabs and crown, - - are you making them too? Do you have your own shop? I've spent the last several years 'setting up shop', - - at this point I've got most of the equipment I need, - - next (hopefully by fall), - - I'll be doubling the size of the shop, - - it's only about 20 X 20 now. I plan on slowly phasing out of most of the remodeling and just doing cabinetry, built-in's, wainscoting, libraries, etc. No particular rush, - - just the old 'grass-is-always-greener' syndrome.


 no i don't build them. I'm sure you have more experience than me. i was just looking for a little help and i think we all got off on the wrong foot... cabinetry, built-in's, wainscoting, libraries,and sometimes closets .. i used to do all those but now just mainly cabinets. Being an installer and having to pay for tools,insurance,gas,ect i just don't see where it pays to just do cabinets. Maybe for you because you make them but not just installing. I want to cut out the middlemen. My son is crying so i'll talk later


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## shopdust (Apr 9, 2005)

MANTUS said:


> Would probably be in your best interest to incorporate ... no? .. yes,it's probably best to use well trained electricians for major work .. journeymen that is


Yes and no as to incorporation.
The courts will "pierce the veil" if the corp. didn't have sufficent liability insuraence. That's fancy talk for going after the 'stockholders' personal assets. For any kind of BK action, CH. 7 , Ch. 13 etc, incorporation is the only way to go. I've been stiffed there and the jerk was still driving an MB. kid in private school and so forth.


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## Rusty Nails (Apr 3, 2005)

MANTUS said:


> Yeah and i've never seen million dollar homes before ... Nice house but how hard is that to build and a builder could install those cabinets by himself. Come on man,i come from years of high end cabinets with 6-10 layers of crown. I could install those cabinets with toe and base trim the windows and hardwood floor all in a days work.... nice kitchen though :Thumbs: a basic builder kitchen if i ever saw one. You couldn't even give the homeowner granite? Let me guess,the house isn't even sold yet ... here's one of my bathrooms.


Uh.........They didn't want granite. They wanted what was installed. 

Crown has been out of style here forever. It's something we've done. but not used to much on beach houses. The owners are looking for a clean, rustic look.

The homes are all sold, thanks. and permitted. Pretty nice huts though?


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## Rusty Nails (Apr 3, 2005)

mdshunk said:


> Since I moderate a few forum areas on a few other boards, I notice that guys asking "how much would you have charged" questions are really making several statements rather than asking a legitimate question.
> 
> 1) They really don't care what you would have charged.
> 2) They want to show all legitimate contractors how "smart" they are by cutting corners and performing below minimum code standards in order to offer the customer a super cheap price.
> ...



Ding Ding Ding.....

We have a winner. :Thumbs:


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

I'm hereby gonna' go ahead and stick my neck out a little and stick up for MANTUS (even though he didn't ask), - - I just read back thru the whole 4 pages and really didn't see the point of treatin' a guy so rude, - - who's just asking a friendly question, - - sure, - - a few of you made a few good points about 'short-cutting', - - and 'legitimacy', - - but he's new, - - or wants to be, - - in remodeling, - - and we all had to start somewhere.

He pretty much heeded people's advice, - - and alluded he wants to go legitimate, - - but in the meantime wants to feed the family while he's learning how to go about things.

I've got a few things to 'admit' to you guys, - -  , - - I started out 26 years ago doing 'side-jobs', - - neighbor here, - - neighbor there, - - didn't know 'squat' about permits, licenses, etc, - - learned as I went along, - - (no one would tell me squat about anything around here, - - no 'internet' to ask then). I studied on my own as I went along and learned everything from reading books and more books, - - I still to this day 'study-up' on a job before I start it, - - even if I feel I already know the job in and out. I actually laugh at the 'petty' selections at the bookstores. 

And guess what else, - -  , - - one of my first jobs, - - was turning an attached garage into a bedroom, - - it was for one of the local county prosecutors, - - he didn't want a permit, - - told me to frame right inside the overhead garage door and leave the outside 'as-is', - - I guess I don't need to tell you guys I decided not to be a hero, - - so I went ahead and did the job and got paid, - - he became a regular customer for the next 15 years until he retired and moved down south about 10 years ago

As I went on and learned some 'ropes', - - now (and for years and years), - - I've always gotten permits and such, - - and I personally can't stand 'fly-by-nights' any more I'm sure than you all can, - - but I really don't view MANTUS as such, - - he's simply a guy with some good hands tryin' to figure out how to get started.

Whether you agree or not, - - thanks for listening.


P.S. I p.m.-d MANTUS with some 'getting started in NJ' info, - - which he thanked me for.

P.S.S. He doesn't need permits to 'change-out' cabinets, - - or do minor (handyman-type) electric or plumbing, - - though of course everything should always be done to code either way.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

Rusty Nails said:


> Uh.........They didn't want granite. They wanted what was installed.
> 
> Crown has been out of style here forever. It's something we've done. but not used to much on beach houses. The owners are looking for a clean, rustic look.
> 
> The homes are all sold, thanks. and permitted. Pretty nice huts though?


 it is a nice place. I know what you mean about the crown,sometimes it's just too much. The reason i was asking about it being sold is because i'm looking for a place myself


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

thanks Tom .. i think we all wasted alot of time getting nowhere on this thread. I'm going to do my research and get things done right. Even the smaller jobs pay good so i really don't mind starting small. I just want to keep out as many middlemen as possible and start getting paid for my work ... less middlemen means not only more money in my pocket but less things getting screwed up ... cabinet orders,deliveries,setting start times and days with homeowner,etc


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Right, - - good luck, - - I strongly encourage you to go on your own. The independence can't be beat, - - and even the 'bad decisions' are much easier to take when at least 'you' are the guy making them  

A contractor once asked me "What makes you think you're any good"? I replied "because I already made every mistake, - - twice". :cheesygri He hired me on the spot.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

MANTUS, you will learn that manufacturers and distributors can screw everything up just as proficiently as a dealer. You will be putting more money in your pocket which will make the foulups a little easier to absorb.
Work your way up and do your best not to take on a job that you are unprepared to handle, they caused me some major headaches and some consistant customers back in the early days. Best of luck.


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## MANTUS (Jan 15, 2004)

thank you


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