# Contractor sues customer for $750,000 for serious bad review on Yelp, Angieslist



## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> I know a couple of guys here who do a great job and are not licensed. Infact ones a alcoholic who got his license taken away and he has been the best sparky i have found over here since moving here. I don't use him though as he's not licensed and insured.


Right... I doubt that is true seems like a fairy tale jab at me because I'm an electrician.

I've met hundreds of electricians over my career and never met one that was an alcoholic. Sorry dude but we can't be heavy drinkers dealing with something as serious as electric. It's quite the opposite in my experience the nail bangers, roofers, and plumbers to be the alcoholics that I've met.

Sure their may be a few here and there alcoholic electricians but by far the lowest out of every trade. Actually I got into the trade party for that reason. I started doing carpentry even tried roofing and most of the crew were either drunks or druggies. So I quit partly because of that and wanted to get into a trade that uses my brain more.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Here are a couple things that bugged me about this story and the thread discussion:
-He is suing for loss of business which is ridiculously hard to prove satisfactorily in court for a service business.
-He is suing for $750k because he claims $300k lost revenue but he wouldn't have been able to keep much of that as profit so I see it as a frivolous amount.
-He could have spent some time or a $1k to develop more Yelp reviews or reviews from other sites and deflated the damage.
-All due respect to the military but rank and service don't guarantee honesty.
-We need to be careful how we view this kind of lawsuit. Of course we have sympathy as people who are afraid of ending up in the same situation as the contractor but unless we want to be held financially liable for everything we write on the Internet(including CT) then there needs to be a limit.


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

That's something I can agree with. I don't want courts running around deciding what can and can't be said online. I think it would be wise of yelp to offer a better solution in these cases.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

realelectrician said:


> Right... I doubt that is true seems like a fairy tale jab at me because I'm an electrician.
> 
> I've met hundreds of electricians over my career and never met one that was an alcoholic. Sorry dude but we can't be heavy drinkers dealing with something as serious as electric. It's quite the opposite in my experience the nail bangers, roofers, and plumbers to be the alcoholics that I've met.
> 
> Sure their may be a few here and there alcoholic electricians but by far the lowest out of every trade. Actually I got into the trade party for that reason. I started doing carpentry even tried roofing and most of the crew were either drunks or druggies. So I quit partly because of that and wanted to get into a trade that uses my brain more.


Not a jab at you at all. I was a sparky back in the UK so that must be a dig at me as well. I agree that plumbers and sparkys seem to be the least drugged up and drunk on site. Roofers seem to be the worst.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

EthanB said:


> -He is suing for loss of business which is ridiculously hard to prove satisfactorily in court for a service business.


If the glove does not fit...you must aquit! ANYTHING is possible in this flawed judicial system!


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## Bunited2 (May 30, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Not a jab at you at all. I was a sparky back in the UK so that must be a dig at me as well. I agree that plumbers and sparkys seem to be the least drugged up and drunk on site. Roofers seem to be the worst.


I've only seen a couple of workers drinking their lunch
over the years, so long as it has nothing to do with
my trade, I don't care.

What's worse is a drunk customer, had a couple of 
those (commercial) obnoxious fools before. Had a 
Facilities Mngr when I was doing a system at C&H
Sugar, nicest guy before noon after drinking at the
local bar for lunch, taking his afternoon nap and
materializing around 2pm every day, he would turn
into the biggest A Hole in Ca.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

realelectrician said:


> Right... I doubt that is true seems like a fairy tale jab at me because I'm an electrician.
> 
> I've met hundreds of electricians over my career and never met one that was an alcoholic. Sorry dude but we can't be heavy drinkers dealing with something as serious as electric. It's quite the opposite in my experience the nail bangers, roofers, and plumbers to be the alcoholics that I've met.
> y brain more.


That's one of the dumber things Ive heard.... Alcoholism knows no boundaries... You dont have to drink on a job to be an alcoholic.....


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

realelectrician said:


> Right... I doubt that is true seems like a fairy tale jab at me because I'm an electrician.
> 
> I've met hundreds of electricians over my career and never met one that was an alcoholic. Sorry dude but we can't be heavy drinkers dealing with something as serious as electric. It's quite the opposite in my experience the nail bangers, roofers, and plumbers to be the alcoholics that I've met.
> 
> Sure their may be a few here and there alcoholic electricians but by far the lowest out of every trade. Actually I got into the trade party for that reason. I started doing carpentry even tried roofing and most of the crew were either drunks or druggies. So I quit partly because of that and wanted to get into a trade that uses my brain more.


you have got to be kidding me


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

realelectrician said:


> Right... I doubt that is true seems like a fairy tale jab at me because I'm an electrician.
> 
> I've met hundreds of electricians over my career and never met one that was an alcoholic. Sorry dude but we can't be heavy drinkers dealing with something as serious as electric. It's quite the opposite in my experience the nail bangers, roofers, and plumbers to be the alcoholics that I've met.
> 
> Sure their may be a few here and there alcoholic electricians but by far the lowest out of every trade. Actually I got into the trade party for that reason. I started doing carpentry even tried roofing and most of the crew were either drunks or druggies. So I quit partly because of that and wanted to get into a trade that uses my brain more.


We call this denial. I know some great people who can help you with your obvious problem. Don't worry, you can get through this.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

jamestrd said:


> That's one of the dumber things Ive heard.... Alcoholism knows no boundaries... You dont have to drink on a job to be an alcoholic.....


How can you possibly know? He's bringing up a statistic, have you ever done this research?


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

KennMacMoragh said:


> How can you possibly know? He's bringing up a statistic, have you ever done this research?


Ha, since he obviously has done a scientific survey of alcoholic electricians. I happen to know three off the top of my head. One was my uncle.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

LeeFowler said:


> Ha, since he obviously has done a scientific survey of alcoholic electricians. I happen to know three off the top of my head. One was my uncle.


Idont need to know based on an idjotic and naive self made statistic. 

I will base it on the fact that 50% of the population isi n fact alcoholic d or substance abuse/addicts. 

Thats is very real statistic..  one based on scientific fact... 

Addiction plagues th world an people of all class and profession... 
Electricians have not raised the bar an side stepped this very real issue..


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

LeeFowler said:


> Ha, since he obviously has done a scientific survey of alcoholic electricians. I happen to know three off the top of my head. One was my uncle.


Maybe it depends where you're from? Lol, that's interesting, I've only ever known two alcoholics in construction, they were both carpenters.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

And Kenn.. Thats 50% of the real world a 90% of the Irish:whistling


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

I happen to know many in every field of construction. However, it seems lots are now drug users instead. I would also agree that roofers are by far the worst when it comes to this. 

Nice transition from yelp reviews to licensing to alcoholic electricians. Seems we have jumped the shark with this thread.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

Ken.. 


You said it yourself... You "only KNEW OF 2 ALCOHOLIS"... 

HOW MANY Do yOU not know of? ... MOST HIDE IT.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

jamestrd said:


> That's one of the dumber things Ive heard.... Alcoholism knows no boundaries... You dont have to drink on a job to be an alcoholic.....


28 years clean & sober here & trust me, alcoholism no's no boundries when it comes to profession. I've set in meetings with drunks from all walks of life, some of them were working electricians.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

pinwheel said:


> No, that's not the problem. She's making accusations without *proof*. Maybe he did steal it, maybe he didn't, but *unless she can prove he did*, then it's slander.
> 
> Who knows, she may have a teenage kid doing dope & needs to support a habit.:whistling


Only one thing is certain. When things go wrong and people make legal disputes, lawyers get rich. The rest YMMV

Libel is defined as *knowingly* making a false defamatory statement. Civil claims are usually based on the preponderance of evidence which basically means "more than 50% likely". This means that the person suing has to prove that the person he's suing more likely than not did so *knowing*that its *false*.

In the legal arena, precision in your language means is very important. 
"he stole it" is different from "we suspect that douche stole it". Latter is an opinion. 

Same goes for your response you leave for customer. Saying a follow-up comment like "this customer is a scammer" can get you in heat for libel.

People get published in paper on arrest for "suspicion of" yet you don't see the police dept or newspaper getting sued regularly over it.

Because of our 14th amendment, for him to be charged CRIMINALLY for theft, which would result in the government depriving him of liberty, the theft needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. 

It's even possible for someone to be declared not guilty, but held liable in civil court,as you can see from OJ Simpson case. "not guilty" is not the same as innocent. It simply means that the .gov wasn't able to prove to the standard of proof required to deprive someone of life, liberty or property.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Driftweed said:


> got a chip on tbe shoulder w/unlicensed guys?
> 
> Just painted a house. straight edges, no strokes on trim, etc. Did it properly. Was asked to spray the exterior of the garage. I'm *not licensed *(a.k.a I'm a hack). They hired it to a licensed,bonded,insured painter. Runs everywhere, 3ft overspray on the driveway, even painted the doorknob and deadbolt. And he did it for 3x as much as I did interior.
> 
> Licensed guys make me laugh. "This paper means I'm the greatest". Get over it.


All this says is you spouted a bunch of anecdotes.

You drive around without a license drunk and you got home ok. The other driver, licensed and sober got distracted and ran over a kid, therefore drinking and driving while not having a license isn't a bad thing, there are worse drivers out there who get into fatal crash sober and licensed.

I'm sure you'd be okay with letting a 16 year old who drives a car without license and insurance shuttle your kids to school. It's unlikely that anything will go wrong unless he gets into a wreck. What if his sister gave a testimonial that he's driven his younger brother around and he hasn't been hurt yet and that princess Diana died in the hands of a professional chauffeur? 

You should be convinced to let him drive your kids around, because nothing bad will happen unless he wrecks and he hasn't wrecked yet.


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## JSM_CC (Jul 25, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Well lesson learned. Do a good job and definately don't steal anything from the clients house.


Wait...does that mean up until now you've been stealing something from every customer and doing just an ok job? ....jester...


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## cabinetsnj (Jun 10, 2012)

EthanB said:


> Here are a couple things that bugged me about this story and the thread discussion:
> -He is suing for loss of business which is ridiculously hard to prove satisfactorily in court for a service business.
> -He is suing for $750k because he claims $300k lost revenue but he wouldn't have been able to keep much of that as profit so I see it as a frivolous amount.
> -He could have spent some time or a $1k to develop more Yelp reviews or reviews from other sites and deflated the damage.
> ...


What ever happened to freedom of speech?

Plus if your company is doing a good job, one bad review shouldn't sink you.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

cabinetsnj said:


> What ever happened to freedom of speech?
> 
> Plus if your company is doing a good job, one bad review shouldn't sink you.


You have freedom from the Government... Not from the populace...

And if you are malicious in your unproven assertion you will pay...

A LOT...


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

cabinetsnj said:


> What ever happened to freedom of speech?
> 
> Plus if your company is doing a good job, one bad review shouldn't sink you.


I don't understand what you're asking me. Freedom of speech didn't really enter into my post.


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## skcolo (May 16, 2009)

Freedom of speech means that the government can't arrest you for speaking out against the government, not that slander is fair game.


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## harrymontana (Dec 27, 2012)

it would be interesting to know what the eventual verdict is, and if maybe the website such as Yelp or Angie's List can be held liable. You Americans are in a risky business..


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## cabinetsnj (Jun 10, 2012)

MAULEMALL said:


> You have freedom from the Government... Not from the populace...
> 
> And if you are malicious in your unproven assertion you will pay...
> 
> A LOT...


It is an opinion. How can an opinion be proven or not?


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## cabinetsnj (Jun 10, 2012)

skcolo said:


> Freedom of speech means that the government can't arrest you for speaking out against the government, not that slander is fair game.


I believe it would be difficult to prove whether the woman's post is slander or the truth.


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## harrymontana (Dec 27, 2012)

dificult or not that is the problem of the judge, so I would be interested in knowing the verdict. In some countries the website is held responsible, think about facebook murder, facebook riot, torrent sites, the reasoning is that 'if there were not this xx site, then it all did not occur'.


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## skcolo (May 16, 2009)

cabinetsnj said:


> I believe it would be difficult to prove whether the woman's post is slander or the truth.


I wasn't implying that it is, just saying that the intent of "freedom of speech" is not that you can say anything, just be able to speak out against the government without fear of prosecution.

It's only in recent history that people have taken that right to extreme measures.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

cabinetsnj said:


> It is an opinion. How can an opinion be proven or not?


She didn't say it was an opinion... She stated it as a fact.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

cabinetsnj said:


> I believe it would be difficult to prove whether the woman's post is slander or the truth.


This is an open and shut case.

She is done.:thumbsup:


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/local/complaint-filed-in-fairfax-county/164/


The actual complaint and if you read it, Read it all..:thumbsup:


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## JSM_CC (Jul 25, 2012)

MAULEMALL said:


> http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/local/complaint-filed-in-fairfax-county/164/
> 
> The actual complaint and if you read it, Read it all..:thumbsup:


Long.....did not care enough to finish reading past page 9. several pages are repetitive.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

Wow looks like i touched the nerve of some alcoholics here and some admitting to drinking on the job...real professional:thumbsup:

I hardly ever drink maybe once or twice a YEAR. And again I met a ton of electricians in my career and never once seen one that was an alcoholic. I have met and worked on job sites with many alcoholic roofers and plumbers though. Like I said before electricans REAL ones can't be coming to work hungover or drunk and dealing with something as dangerous as electricity. 

If you need a beer on a job site that is a clear indication you have a problem.

I'm not the pope or anything and have no problem with people having a few beers AFTER work.


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## JSM_CC (Jul 25, 2012)

realelectrician said:


> Wow looks like i touched the nerve of some alcoholics here and some admitting to drinking on the job...real professional:thumbsup:
> 
> I hardly ever drink maybe once or twice a YEAR. And again I met a ton of electricians in my career and never once seen one that was an alcoholic. I have met and worked on job sites with many alcoholic roofers and plumbers though. Like I said before electricans REAL ones can't be coming to work hungover or drunk and dealing with something as dangerous as electricity.
> 
> ...


Are you in the right thread?


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

JSM_CC said:


> Are you in the right thread?


Sure am how about you? Instead of making childish remarks why don't you ask specifically what makes you come to that conclusion?


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## JSM_CC (Jul 25, 2012)

realelectrician said:


> Sure am how about you? Instead of making childish remarks why don't you ask specifically what makes you come to that conclusion?


Im not sure how the alcoholism is relevant to this thread?


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

JSM_CC said:


> Im not sure how the alcoholism is relevant to this thread?


It was brought up some how earlier on. Instead of reading the last replies of a thread and making a comment try reading the thread.


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## JSM_CC (Jul 25, 2012)

realelectrician said:


> It was brought up some how earlier on. Instead of reading the last replies of a thread and making a comment try reading the thread.


I read the whole thread, but alcohol never caught my eye.


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

MAULEMALL said:


> She didn't say it was an opinion... She stated it as a fact.


Yes, exactly the difference.


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## JSM_CC (Jul 25, 2012)

JSM_CC said:


> I read the whole thread, but alcohol never caught my eye.


Oh, it seems when i quoted from page 4 i skipped to the bottom of page 8 and missed all the drunk talk.

Still, not sure how it's relevant to the original post.


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## detroit687 (Sep 4, 2008)

realelectrician said:


> My main thing is the claim about the theft. That claim can ruin someone his business and any future employment.
> 
> Also it's nothing new to check for license and insurance before hiring a contractor. If this is all true she got what she deserved then.


Shes not a gc
Shes a home owner i really dont think she got what she deserved. The truth is there are more unqualified contractors out there than qualified ones.

I went to some horrible pediatricians with my daughter and didnt hesitate to write a bad review. If you feel you have poor service then you have poor service.


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## detroit687 (Sep 4, 2008)

In michigan no residential builders license no work performed over 599


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## JSM_CC (Jul 25, 2012)

detroit687 said:


> Shes not a gc
> Shes a home owner i really dont think she got what she deserved. The truth is there are more unqualified contractors out there than qualified ones.
> 
> I went to some horrible pediatricians with my daughter and didnt hesitate to write a bad review. If you feel you have poor service then you have poor service.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if it has a potentially negative outcome on someone's livelihood, than perhaps an unbiased judge should determine what stands.

Two people can witness the same event and recall it very differently.
This is why things like Job Journals and before and after photo documentation are extremely important. There are some good threads on here that explain the benefits of job journals.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

JSM_CC said:


> Oh, it seems when i quoted from page 4 i skipped to the bottom of page 8 and missed all the drunk talk.
> 
> Still, not sure how it's relevant to the original post.


Nobody said it was relevant I was replying to comments earlier made to me...


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

A good start is to not rape the English language by not using slander and libel synonymously. Consumer shouldn't be discouraged from expressing themselves. 

When writing unflattering scathing reviews, the golden rule is to tell the truth. If what you want to say isn't an indisputable fact, take an opinion approach. Don't say "xyz construction overcharged me since his work wasn't up to standards". 

You say "I *felt *overcharged by xyz construction, because the quality wasn't up to *my *standard". These are true statements, as long as you actually felt the way you did lol. 

These qualifiers I bolded make the difference between possible libel claim vs protected opinion. 
libel
) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an *untruth *about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or broadcast form of defamation, distinguished *from slander, which is oral defamation.*


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## Vermey (Oct 31, 2012)

Fake online reviews are a huge problem! Here is a great lawyer that can help you should you be the victim of one.
http://www.hutchersonlaw.com/
He has sued Rippoffreport.com, yelp.com and been successful in removing the negative reviews!


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Supreme Court just threw out the censorship. Now ACLU is involved. 
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...gainst-Yelp-Angies-List-Review-185484422.html

Someone posted the contractor's claim. I found the counter side posted by defendant:
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/local/response-from-perez-to-the-complaint/161/

In the contractor's side of claim it says that they're licensed. Well, that would not be false, as according to DPOR site it appears that Dietz's company has been licensed since September 2012. 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/2012/12/04/1cdfa582-3978-11e2-a263-f0ebffed2f15_print.html

Anyways, talk about streisand effect.

Here's more in depth 68 pages of wall of text on this matter. This includes correspondence between the parties, state regulatory agencies, etc. 
http://www.citizen.org/documents/PerezExhibits1-13.pdf


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## Blu Roofing (Jan 5, 2013)

Interesting post.


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