# Fail



## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Straight flex [original] It's never worked !!! Please stop wasting my time !!!


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

......


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Living room ceiling 16 '


Master bedroom 16' 


Nice !


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Crimp on bead???? REALLY! SI!!


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

Interesting.


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

First time I used the stuff I had the same issue. Seemed like a neat product but unless its bent perfectly it is trying to pull itself away from the joint as soon as the knife leaves the surface. Haven't used it since.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Don't you just love those easy jobs. :jester:

So how do you plan on fixing that straight flex ?


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

I did a repair job to a house that all the flex tape was falling off. I just pulled it back and sprayed trim tex glue and pushed it back.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Big Shoe said:


> Don't you just love those easy jobs. :jester:
> 
> So how do you plan on fixing that straight flex ?


Ultra-flex. I ripped It all out and replaced it with what should have been used the first go round. This ain't the first time Iv'e gone behind ''those'' people!


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

blacktop said:


> Ultra-flex. I ripped It all out and replaced it with what should have been used the first go round. This ain't the first time Iv'e gone behind ''those'' people!


nice... the job I did he wanted a quick fix and did not want to pay a lot


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

icerock drywall said:


> nice... the job I did he wanted a quick fix and did not want to pay a lot


Run


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## quickpatch (Jun 9, 2010)

*The best strait-flex joke*

The great strait-flex joke was the official solution to the "not sticking" to the wall problem The solution was to sell 8 ounce bottles of bonding agent for $8.00. Mix it in the mud and it would stick a little better. You could buy the exact same product for $20.00 per gallon being sold at Home Depot as concrete bonder. To be fair to strait-flex I should mention that I bought one of the first boxes of No-coat Ultraflex when it was brand new.
The ultraflex was a disaster. I contacted the supplier and they told me that there were production problems and the whole first run delaminated. The rest, as they say, is history.


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## flippinfool (Jan 6, 2009)

I've been using it for over ten years and had only one or two small 3-6" spots that gave way. I use red (tuff tape) for all inside corners and blue (big) for any off angles. I use green lid without adding any water(just a good mix) and also use the super bond glue. With the red I fold it in half hard and open it up just a bit more than the corner and install in a nice bed of mud. Do the same with the blue. The green (medium) and black (original) are much harder to work with. The red is a pc of cake. Hope it helps.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

quickpatch said:


> The ultraflex was a disaster. I contacted the supplier and they told me that there were production problems and the whole first run delaminated. The rest, as they say, is history.


Did you quickpatch it with hot mud? Hotmud will not stick to metal or vinyl .


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## Mr Knucklehead (May 31, 2014)

Been using Straight-flex for about 14 years and never had a problem. There's a learning curve, and that curve is to use plenty of mud behind the tape to ensure full bond/coverage, make a hard fold/bend and then bring it back so it wants to slightly flex into and inside corner or hold onto and outside corner and use 90min Durabond for your first embedding coat and make it a clean tight coat, just a thin layer over the tape. I can then go back same day and give another coat with green cap. Speeds up the job and gives you really nice inside and outside corners. And use scissors to make your cuts.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Mr Knucklehead said:


> Been using Straight-flex for about 14 years and never had a problem. There's a learning curve, and that curve is to use plenty of mud behind the tape to ensure full bond/coverage, make a hard fold/bend and then bring it back so it wants to slightly flex into and inside corner or hold onto and outside corner and use 90min Durabond for your first embedding coat and make it a clean tight coat, just a thin layer over the tape. I can then go back same day and give another coat with green cap. Speeds up the job and gives you really nice inside and outside corners. And use scissors to make your cuts.


Just because you've had no complaints .. Don't mean you've had no complaints !!! They probably called someone else to fix your fail!


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## Mr Knucklehead (May 31, 2014)

Blacktop,

There's a short learning curve with the product, but once mastered you will love it because it saves time and makes perfect inside and outside corners. Most fail because they are not using a setting compound to set the tape and not ensuring full embedding of the tape. I prefer Durabond either straight or mixed with green cap for my first coat. This is why the came out with the perforated tape, so you can see the mud squeeze out of the holes showing you applied enough. Interesting enough, I was just teaching a new hire today on it's proper use.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Mr Knucklehead said:


> Blacktop,
> 
> There's a short learning curve with the product, but once mastered you will love it because it saves time and makes perfect inside and outside corners. Most fail because they are not using a setting compound to set the tape and not ensuring full embedding of the tape. I prefer Durabond either straight or mixed with green cap for my first coat. This is why the came out with the perforated tape, so you can see the mud squeeze out of the holes showing you applied enough. Interesting enough, I was just teaching a new hire today on it's proper use.


Hot mud with straight flex ? Hot mud will not stick to vinyl or metal . It will fail!! POOR BOND!!! Not my just my opinion . :no: FACT!


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## Mr Knucklehead (May 31, 2014)

Blacktop,

I'm sure you do fine work and take pride in what you do. We are all set in our ways and comfort zone with what and how we do things. 

The product may not be up to your expectations in performance and that's OK, I respect that. 

My work is mainly residential remodeling where the structure is very well settled (foundation/framing). The occasional kitchen extension, but that's as far as it goes with new construction for us. 

I try to do my due diligence and read all manufactures submittle sheets. It clearly states not to be used where structural movement may occur. Now I've been in this business long enough to know manufactures word their warranties to keep things in their favor by keeping things in the gray area that is open to interpretation. 

So with that said my projects are older homes that are not going to move much. 

According to Straight-Flex you are to use a "taping compound" or a "setting compound". Durabond according to USG is a "setting compound". Also straight-flex is not 100% vinyl, it's a fiber cotton/wool composite. 

I've found throughout my years that most product failure is due to improper application. Windows, doors, flooring etc.. usually fail due to improper installation and not fully understanding the products limitations and not following manufactures instructions.

Happy Thanksgiving


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

blacktop said:


> Hot mud with straight flex ? Hot mud will not stick to vinyl or metal . It will fail!! POOR BOND!!! Not my just my opinion . :no: FACT!


Huh, strange that they sell metal and vinyl bead across the aisle from pallets of quickset.

Personally, I have done all of my new work with first and second coats quickset and never had a problem. 

Dont give me the no problems doents mean no problems shtick, these are clients and properties Ive been around for years.


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## quickpatch (Jun 9, 2010)

*Hot mud does not stick to metal or vinyl*



blacktop said:


> Did you quickpatch it with hot mud? Hotmud will not stick to metal or vinyl .


I guess I should stop cleaning out my buckets, pans and trowels when I use hot mud. I should just wait until the next day and it will fall right off. 

The first shipment of ultraflex came apart. The vinyl and paper were not bonded properly. The place I bought it admitted that. Ultraflex has no exposed metal or vinyl.

A lot of people seem to think that if you had a problem with something it was because you did something wrong. I don't believe that is true 100% of the time.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Mr Knucklehead said:


> Blacktop,
> 
> I'm sure you do fine work and take pride in what you do. We are all set in our ways and comfort zone with what and how we do things.
> 
> ...


Sounds familiar. I agree 100%.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

quickpatch said:


> I guess I should stop cleaning out my buckets, pans and trowels when I use hot mud. I should just wait until the next day and it will fall right off.



Yes It will! Just beat around the sides and it will just pop off. Try that with A/P mud. Have you ever tried to get hot mud off a shower tub ? It just pops off with little effort. While A/P Is careful chore. 

Hot mud has a poor bond to metal,Plastic,Fiberglass . This I do know.


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

I use one of those plastic mud pans for repairs with hot mud because just let it dry and twist it like an ice cube tray and you have a clean pan.


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

ToolNut said:


> I use one of those plastic mud pans for repairs with hot mud because just let it dry and twist it like an ice cube tray and you have a clean pan.


I use a steel pan and just mix what I need ....


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## GCTony (Oct 26, 2012)

So we shouldn't be using setting mud for vinyl zip or other trimtex beads?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

GCTony said:


> So we shouldn't be using setting mud for vinyl zip or other trimtex beads?


Use What you want ... Let us know!


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## Windwash (Dec 23, 2007)

You should clarify the hot mud you are talking about so we can narrow down the problem. Sandable or brown bag? 

I'm just a remodeler and I have a good taper but I will tape on smaller projects to stay on schedule when I am there to do other stuff anyway. In my experience, Durabond brown bag will stick to anything. I have used it for off angled hip/valleys and stair heads and have never had a problem.


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

GCTony said:


> So we shouldn't be using setting mud for vinyl zip or other trimtex beads?


little mud max in your ezsand or I would not use light baby blue


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Wow. Have not looked at this thread for a while.

I've worked with a lot of finishers and I understand where Blacktop is coming from. I've seen my fare share of failed installations. But agree with Mr Knuclehead's statement as well. New const. vs remodels. Two totally different beasts. 

I use 45 for installing Straight flex. Been doing so for years. Wet 20 in a pinch for small repair. I had the new stuff with the holes come back and haunt me the first time I used it. But I can see the holes help with bonding.

Every kind of tape ever invented has failed on ceilings where there has been movement/settling. Nature of the beast.


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## Mr Knucklehead (May 31, 2014)

Big Shoe said:


> Wow. Have not looked at this thread for a while.
> 
> I've worked with a lot of finishers and I understand where Blacktop is coming from. I've seen my fare share of failed installations. But agree with Mr Knuclehead's statement as well. New const. vs remodels. Two totally different beasts.
> 
> ...


 Big shoe, I'm on board with much you said. It's all about proper application, mixing the mud correctly and structural movement. I know what works for me, and I'm sure other professionals on this board that do this day in and day out know what works for them and why. 

Just for all's information, (I do not use Trim-Tex products) however a post above mentioned it so out of curiosity I contacted the manufacture and asked if USG Durabond was an acceptable mud for installation of their mud-set corner beads. 

I received a prompt response from an inside tech that Durabond is not recommended because it's too brittle. 

There we go back to structural movement.

However let's not confuse all products to be the same. I'm a user of StraighFlex and it's a home-run for my work in remolding projects. I've been going back to the same homes for years (well over 10-15) with no failures and I'll either use Durabond full strength or mixed with green cap. I'll be honest I have very little experience with new construction except for additions, but I'll still use Straightflex for those projects. I believe most failures are probably due to installers not knowing the product, improper mud mixing, improper amount of mud and installers trying to beat the clock.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

There is enough variation in site conditions / framing condition between sites, especially new construction sites, that I think call backs can vary quite a bit for a given set of materials / techniques. You can only really get a system worked out to be highly reliable in a high volume situation, which means new construction. They have their own set of conditions to deal with, compared to remodeling.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

hdavis said:


> There is enough variation in site conditions / framing condition between sites, especially new construction sites, that I think call backs can vary quite a bit for a given set of materials / techniques. You can only really get a system worked out to be highly reliable in a high volume situation, which means new construction. They have their own set of conditions to deal with, compared to remodeling.


Agreed. Including climate conditions. What works in the Northeast might not have the same results in Florida ect... :no:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I'm pretty sure I do things not everyone would approve of. I must have listened to a guy talk about how I was skim coating some T&G for a week. Said it wouldn't work, it would crack,... He finally complained to the HO. It was fully cured by then, so I took a framing hammer and beat some of it off while he watched. Shut him up real quick, and I patched the mess I made. It was a screwed up deal, but you couldn't narrow the stair well, and you couldn't take the stairs out to rebuild it all. Skimming was the only option.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I Ran short of Ultra-flex today . 


Your right Davis . New construction and renos are two different beast.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Hard to see from the pics. I paper taped the flange of the Straight Flex .


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

I wouldnt use hot mud. Dryes to fast. When i use no coat i use green lid from usg only.
There is a lot of things that can make staff fail.
1. Wrong mud.
2. Temperature. 
3. Spreding mud to much ahead of yourself. Than by the time you install no coat mud is dry allready. 
4. Bad mud. Simply old or frozen befor.

I dint think its a product or tool. Usually is the operator.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

Anyone here use magic corner set in tite bond? The results are awesome. I just finished a ceiling with a lot of detail. The points didn't even come together but they do now. There are so many options with magic corner and it's adjustable. I love the stuff.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> Anyone here use magic corner set in tite bond? The results are awesome. I just finished a ceiling with a lot of detail. The points didn't even come together but they do now. There are so many options with magic corner and it's adjustable. I love the stuff.


I've used the MC A few times on off angles in vaults ..Thing Is with that stuff the frame needs to be perfect ! Which i seldom get to see here .. I also paper tape the flange on the MC. For insurance . I like the look of it after paint. It's cheap too compared to No-coat . And that's always bothered me too....Why did they name It No-coat?? I block it in with a 10'' then skim out with a 12'' to level out ...That's coating!! They should have just stuck with the name ultra-Flex. :laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> There is enough variation in site conditions / framing condition between sites, especially new construction sites, that I think call backs can vary quite a bit for a given set of materials / techniques. You can only really get a system worked out to be highly reliable in a high volume situation, which means new construction. They have their own set of conditions to deal with, compared to remodeling.


Yep, I did this to the stair walls in my own home, I didn't care if it failed because I could address it if needed down the road. Well its been about 10 years and it still hasn't cracked.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

blacktop said:


> I've used the MC A few times on off angles in vaults ..Thing Is with that stuff the frame needs to be perfect !


Actually, it don't. The trick is to cut a 12" piece of magic. Place it in the corner and make a pencil mark on the outer bottom on the wall or top of the ceiling. Never on the pitch. Make sure the points meet. Snap lines from corner to corner all the way around. Then secure with stapler on wall. Under pack any areas that are off the point with hot mix. That should give you straight angles and tight points. I've been doing this over 15 years and never a problem. This is my own personal trick that I came up with. Give it a try. You'd be surprised just what you can do with magic corner. Trim tex doesn't even know it's limitations.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> Actually, it don't. The trick is to cut a 12" piece of magic. Place it in the corner and make a pencil mark on the outer bottom on the wall or top of the ceiling. Never on the pitch. Make sure the points meet. Snap lines from corner to corner all the way around. Then secure with stapler on wall. Under pack any areas that are off the point with hot mix. That should give you straight angles and tight points. I've been doing this over 15 years and never a problem. This is my own personal trick that I came up with. Give it a try. You'd be surprised just what you can do with magic corner. Trim tex doesn't even know it's limitations.


That's the same thing i do with N/C I cut pieces to fill framing voids .. If i'm using 4.50 I'l use the 3.25[as levelers ] to level out the dips . [you know what I'm sayin!]


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

blacktop said:


> That's the same thing i do with N/C I cut pieces to fill framing voids .. If i'm using 4.50 I'l use the 3.25[as levelers ] to level out the dips . [you know what I'm sayin!]


I get that. I just run into points that don't meet because the framing is off or the rockers throw it off. Magic corner is the best way to bring those points together. But as for the framing voids. That's where my rockers float the rock and tie it together with tite bond. We've put a lot of thought into our methods. I just finished a real beauty. I have to sand it Monday. I will take pictures. Though they don't show so well with the level 5 finish. You can't always see the crisp points. 

I just try to avoid things like level line and no coat. Though they are more flexible and durable. They aren't as adjustable.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

I mean more flexible and durable than strait flex, not magic.


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