# Less headache with all subs and no employees?



## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

I know some of you run your business with 100% subs. Then i know some of you do as much in house as possible. And i am sure most of you have tried it both ways.

So my question is, overall which method leads to less headaches and less stress?

Matt


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## DavidNTX (May 6, 2007)

ruskent said:


> I know some of you run your business with 100% subs. Then i know some of you do as much in house as possible. And i am sure most of you have tried it both ways.
> 
> So my question is, overall which method leads to less headaches and less stress?
> 
> Matt


Of course subs are less headaches and less stress and might be less legal according to the IRS. There is a thread I read here a few days ago about how the IRS looks at a worker to see if the worker is actually a subcontractor or an employee. It appears the main thing they look at is whether the worker has the freedom to come and go as he/she pleases or are they required to be on the job by hours set by you. In other words, will this person have a problem if they show up late everyday and leave early. If so then they are an employee, not a contractor. They also look at things like who furnishes the tools. Subcontractors normally have their own tools and an employee uses yours. There are a total of like 20 different issues like this to decide if the worker is a contractor or employee and who will be responsible for the employers share of FICA and any other associated fines. Paying an employees FICA on a weekly basis is much easier than having to come up with a couple of years worth for several employees FICA plus penalties and interest.

Subcontractors are less stress and problems at first but if it ever becomes an issue with the IRS, employees would have been much less stress and headaches. Check with your CPA before jumping head first into something.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

We use both and even though both have different issues and stresses involved. I could never in a million years see running with only subs. Subs bring far more baggage and issues then employees ever will or could. Employees in my experience are totally directable, controllable and trainable. 

Subs are their own company and 99% of all contractors run horrible companies. Sorry if that sounds bad, but it's true to course from my experiences.

When one says which is easier I guess most people look for the path of least resistance when it comes to judging what 'easier' means. In the beginning it's easy to have a sub do something, but start doing 100 projects over a year, 50 with subs and 50 with employees, the subs will get you a head start since they get up and running quicker, but with proper management and training the employees will eclipse the subs by the 10th project and after that they will leave the subs in the dust in terms of quality and productivity and profitability. All granted of course that you are a capable manager and runner of your business.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

It depends on the business you're in.

When I did remodel we did everything in house. Scheduling subs was impossible. We would be working in a restaurant and need a plumber. You better have the capacity to do it right now. Same with all the trades. 

Now I do new homes. All subs. You know the schedule going in. Opening a wall/ceiling and finding something unexpected that needs to be dealt with right now is not an issue. Because they do only one thing, they are faster at it (usually) and they have the stuff they need in their trucks (usually).


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## nadonailer (Nov 15, 2005)

I use both. Can't see going the all sub route, because they can't be sent to a job on a moments notice to fix a problem like your own crew can.......


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Employees only here.
Headaches... what headaches?


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> We use both and even though both have different issues and stresses involved. I could never in a million years see running with only subs. Subs bring far more baggage and issues then employees ever will or could. Employees in my experience are totally directable, controllable and trainable.
> 
> Subs are their own company and 99% of all contractors run horrible companies. Sorry if that sounds bad, but it's true to course from my experiences.


Mike you do have a good argument in that last paragraph. Not that it's right or wrong. But from some of your recent posts - you need to find some new subs man

Rusk, I keep tellin you - figure out what you want to be. Are you a GC? Are you a tradesman? Do you know the difference between the two?? If you do, do you know how to be one WITHOUT being the other?

you're thinking right now "dirt - this has nothing to do with my question, you sh*thead"

but it does 

I keep tellin you figure out what you want to be - b/c THAT is your biggest problem; you have no idea what you want to be. Once you can answer that question (without flip flopping it 3 days later) - I truly believe the solution to a lot of your problems will become clearer.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

All my installers are subs. My foreman and drivers are employees. One of my salespeople is on staff. The others are subs.
If I wasn't so seasonal I would rather have meployees, but what do I do with them for 4 months a year when it's too cold to work?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

dirt diggler said:


> Mike you do have a good argument in that last paragraph. Not that it's right or wrong. But from some of your recent posts - you need to find some new subs man


I think there comes through enough discovery a point where you learn what your sub community is capable of, and continuous hiring and firing of subs in search of the elusive "super sub" eventually becomes nothing more than an effort of futility, akin to Ponce de Leon's search for the fountain of youth. 

There is simply an upper limit of what you can expect from others in the trades who are running their own businesses and anything above it just becomes unrealistic. 

You can beat your head on the wall till it's bloody or begin to use your resources to the best of their abilities and work with their limitations. Nothing different then using your tools in realistic manners. A guy can keep hoping his 12vt 3/8 drill will drill through concrete quickly but all the hoping won't change what the drill is capable of.

In the end it all comes down to resource management in this business. You have to find others with characteristics within your range of tolerances and then it's always going to be a matter of managing them to get what you want from them. There will be times to push and times not to, but in the end success or failure comes with recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of everyone on your team, be it a sub or an employee, and having the ability to pull the best from that person.


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

*We do it all ,sub nothing!*

My license lets Me pull all permits,and do all our work. I have ALL the tools and equept. and the experience. Sounds like bragging, just fact . Took a lot of years to get here. I just love all the trades! Not right for everyone, Keeps Me happy:thumbup:


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## marc (Mar 18, 2005)

Office staff, sales people, production Manager and Service Manager are all employees.
All installers are subs. They warranty their work for 1 year. We warranty it for 10 years. I find it a lot easier dealing with subs for my installs. If we slow down for one reason or another I don't have to worry about paying employees. If we need 6 siding crews we have 6. If we only need 3 then we only use our 3 best. same with windows and sunrooms. I have been fortunate enough to have great subs that have been with me for a long time. Our youngest crew has been with us since 2001 but I have guys that have been with me since 1996. 

NO MORE employee installers for us.

We only do Vinyl Siding, Replacement windows and sunrooms.


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## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

Stone Mountain said:


> but what do I do with them for 4 months a year when it's too cold to work?


4 Months? You're a slave driver! November, December, January, February, March, April, and bit of October are too cold for me.


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

dirt diggler said:


> Mike you do have a good argument in that last paragraph. Not that it's right or wrong. But from some of your recent posts - you need to find some new subs man
> 
> Rusk, I keep tellin you - figure out what you want to be. Are you a GC? Are you a tradesman? Do you know the difference between the two?? If you do, do you know how to be one WITHOUT being the other?
> 
> ...



Dirt- Figuring out what i want to be is not the proablem. GETTING to where i want to be is whats giving me the proablem. Growing to fast is my proablem. Doing things i never done before is my proablem.

I'll give you credit, you defiently read me correctly and can tell what my proablems are.

I am acting like a tradesman and a GC. Thats causing me trouble. I pay my guys to much money and their too slow. My worst proablem is i have no idea how to run a business. There i said it!

I am getting to the point where i just need to figure how wheather its a tradesman or GC i want to be then go work in a office for whatever i choose for 6 months or a year and learn everything i can about running a business. 

I have ALOT of short comings running a business and they are all coming out now.

But i am great at marketing!!!

Matt


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Chris G said:


> 4 Months? You're a slave driver! November, December, January, February, March, April, and bit of October are too cold for me.


We were doing exterior Painting in Scarborough last December


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

The head aches are not less. They are different. You have a complete different set of head aches. 

I use almost all subs, but as we grow I am finding that I need some employees for the very small, emergency and specialized jobs. 

Many companies I know run with only subs. I kind of toggle back and forth as te stress levels increase. I can see using only subs if I wanted to abandon anything specialized, like elastomeric roofing, or commecial roofing maintenance. If i wanted to stick with only main stream, I could easily use all subs.

Personally for me, I see nothing wrong with using subs if you can control them. The prblem most people have had with subs is they often slap some crap together, and they get away with this because most guys in my position either don't know what's what or don't care. For them to slow down and do things right usually is an impossibility. Even if I pay their boss more, he won't share it with them, so why should they slow down and do things right?

I really really REALLY like working with subs where the boss works on the crew, not guys who run 4 crews, and those are probably subs. I like getting to know the guys working for me, weather they are subs or employees. I like seeing the same faces every day. 

I'e kind of gotten it down to a science but again I am having various issues and finding it necessary to hire employees to grow into various markets and services.


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## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

George Z said:


> We were doing exterior Painting in Scarborough last December


By "we" do you mean.......everyone but yourself? :laughing:


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

ruskent said:


> Dirt- Figuring out what i want to be is not the proablem. GETTING to where i want to be is whats giving me the proablem. Growing to fast is my proablem. Doing things i never done before is my proablem.
> 
> I'll give you credit, you defiently read me correctly and can tell what my proablems are.
> 
> ...


i repeat ... you need to sit down FIGURE OUT WHICH ONE YOU ARE
and then COMMIT to that.

it IS THE PROBLEM. And it's preventing you from getting to where you want to be (which even though you say you know - i HIGHLY doubt that you honestly do)

and it's not even worth taking the time to discuss your problem(s) right now - because you need to figure that first thing out first. Right? Yep.


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## Brian (Jun 9, 2004)

George Z said:


> Employees only here.
> Headaches... what headaches?


All subs for the past 12 years.

Headaches... what headaches?

Seriously though, I see potential headaches either way. I think the company culture and systems are more important. If you have a good culture and good systems, either can work. I had a lot more headaches with employees, but I didn't have any systems then either.

Subs give me a lot more flexbility, and that works for me and for them. I have 6 to 8 subs I've used over the past 2 years. I can match the sub to the job, so that the customer gets the best fit. 

My office staff are employees. Salesmen are either employees or independent contractors, depending on their situation and needs.

Brian Phillips


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Driftwood said:


> My license lets Me pull all permits,and do all our work. I have ALL the tools and equept. and the experience. Sounds like bragging, just fact . Took a lot of years to get here. I just love all the trades! Not right for everyone, Keeps Me happy:thumbup:



I learned all the trades as well from concrete to roofing and ll in between because you just never know:thumbsup:


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## POOLMANinCT (Oct 7, 2006)

matt, 
before you can solve anything, you must define YOUR role in your company.... until then you are going to feel like all the life is being sucked from you......

ray


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