# anyone working for free?



## smitty58 (Nov 26, 2005)

Lately I've been outbid by what can only be described as working for free. This last one really upset me, I know there are always going to be those willing to work cheap but sometimes it really gets to you. I bid a laminate floor job for $2.00 a sq ft which I thought was a good price ,only to find out someone else bid it at .75!!!! What the? This customer has picked my brain on several projects and then brags to me about finding this guy willing to work for free. Normally this would not bother me ,but this one really got me. So just wanted to vent.


----------



## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

Price difference happens to all of us. I always need to explain why we are asking for the money we are asking. What seperates us from the others. Sometimes its easy, sometimes it is not. Keep trying.


----------



## skymaster (Oct 23, 2006)

Smitty; Just remember this the next time he wants to pick ur brain:no:

Merry Christmas and fuget bout him


----------



## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

Yup it does happen to all of us I hate that. A homeowner will get a couple bids and go for the cheapest one and think they got a good deal, but what they dont realize is what materials are being used and the quaility of the job. I don't know how some of these guys can work so cheap and still eat!!:no: 


Dave


----------



## A.W.Davis (Oct 17, 2006)

I love the ones that go with the cheap ones and end up calling me back to fix their mess!!!


----------



## Murphy (Mar 28, 2006)

Charge him double next time to fix the mess el cheapo left behind. Dont ever bid for him again either tell him to call you if he wants it done right.


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

smitty58 said:


> Lately I've been outbid by what can only be described as working for free. This last one really upset me, I know there are always going to be those willing to work cheap but sometimes it really gets to you. I bid a laminate floor job for $2.00 a sq ft which I thought was a good price ,only to find out someone else bid it at .75!!!! What the? This customer has picked my brain on several projects and then brags to me about finding this guy willing to work for free. Normally this would not bother me ,but this one really got me. So just wanted to vent.



Sorry man. Happens every now and then. If he calls back...it will cost double, right?:w00t:


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

and you didn't pick his brain back about what he was getting for .75 a foot? Or did you and he is getting exactly what you would provide or  better???


----------



## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Can you even buy laminate flooring for .75 a sq. ft.????


----------



## King of Crown (Oct 12, 2005)

Door companies outbid each other here like that, but then when final balance is due, they charge 10x over for hinges, and thresholds. It ends up being the same in the long run. 

Or if its a custom job and they go with the lowest bidder, they will be giving you a call in two weaks, asking to pick up where the others left off.


----------



## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Reminds me of a new home that was built a few years back...now $4 a sq/ft was going rate then, and the HO was acting as his own GC, and asked for bids...so then he finds a crew that works for exactly half...$2 a foot. What he got was nothing was square, incorrect framing practices, blocked headers...I don't think this crew knew what a level or plumb line was for...and the guy that ended up with the tape and bed on the house made up for what the guy saved.....it was a mess...I think about it every time I drive by and notice how the roof doesn't look quite right....


----------



## picks (Dec 18, 2006)

its happened to me plenty!

and 9 times out of 10 the low bid job is a hack!!!

u get what u pay for...

some people know this but too many don't!

if somebody takes pride in themselves and what they do, then they should be doing it right and for the right price!!!


----------



## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I base laminate flooring install at $3.00. Add on for material.


----------



## AirPro (Oct 9, 2006)

Just have faith in the fact that these jacklegs won't be in business too long. I mean, how could they if their work was on par with everyone else and they are charging 1/2 the price? I get so tired of hearing the term NO overhead or LOW overhead from these hacks that don't even know what their overhead is. Overhead % in my industry actually goes DOWN when you get bigger and have more guys working for you, I don't know where these one man shows ( I use that term loosley as I am one myself with 2 part time guys) get the idea that they have less overhead % ...let alone half than anyone else in the same trade.  

Let them bury themselves is what I say.


----------



## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

When people are in the mindset to go for the cheapest price, you will never win their business.
A few years ago, I gave a quote (It was a refferal) for a good size deck. I didn't get the job.
the following season, the homie called me for a retaining wall. I went on the call, and the deck was already built. A piss poor job, with lousy detail, but mostly my design. The customer says "what do you think". Turns out he hubby is a lawyer, and one of his clients did the work because money was owed. (so why did they call me for an estimate and waste my time: probably to make sure they didn't pay too much).
Anyway, I worked out the wall, explaines how to do it, answered their questions about why the deck was bouncy, and gave the price.
Later, I follwed up, and they gave the job to the same guy. 
reasoning: well, they knew I would do a better job, but he was 30% cheaper, so they used him.
So much for quality!


----------



## MKamis (Nov 17, 2006)

I'm always looking for the best ways to set myself apart from my competetion. One thing that burns me up is when I come up with really good ideas for a remodel, and then the other bidders get to sit down and look over my design/layout/etc. and simply bid it!

To avoid this, I've been drawing remodeling plans on my CAD program, then bringing the laptop to the customer's home for a sales presentation. Once the drawing encompasses everything the customer wants, they naturally ask me "can I get a copy of that?". 

Yes, once you give me the job.


----------



## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Couple of points I would like to add here-

First, just because somebody else is cheaper is absolutely no proof that they are not going to do such a good job. 
I regularly get jobs that were bid much higher by other cabinet firms, and there is no way they were going to do a better job than I do, in fact some of them would have been worse, with cheaper materials and poor workmanship (I've seen evidence of both). They do have excellent marketing though, which is how they are abe to keep going, by giving the impression that their customers are going to be well served

The other point I would like to offer is that _quality on it's own is a weak marketing tool_. You tell the customer that you will do a quality job, the guys underbidding you will be doing the same. The customers will have plenty of experience to teach them that careful shopping will produce a better price for the same product, so price is no indication of quality. 'Get what you pay for'? Maybe, maybe not.
What's needed are other ways to set you apart from the competition. Marty's example above is a good one, no drawings or specs til you've got the job

John


----------



## smitty58 (Nov 26, 2005)

He even went on to say that this guy is doing 80% of the new homes in the area and is covered up in work. But he called him on Tuesday for a bid and the guy said he could do the job THE FOLLOWING DAY!!! 
Now if you are like me we might slide a really good paying job in if it's the only way to get it ,but usually we just do them in order they award the jobs. So if this guy is "covered up" then how did he do it the next day. The whole thing just stinks, what I have learned is no more free advice to guys like this.


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

The thing you should learn is to start asking questions instead of listening naively to your potential customer selling you by repeating the pitch that sold him.

30 seconds of conversation between you two might have been the difference between you laying some flooring at your price and posting here about a job you missed.

When the customer said "This customer has picked my brain on several projects and then brags to me about finding this guy willing to work for free for .75 cents a foot"

You could ask him - is it the same material? Is he insured? Do you know the risks of him not having insurance? Is he licensed? Do you know the risks of him not being licenses? Has he been in business very long? Do you know the risks of hiring somebody just starting out? Have you checked his references? Did he ask for a large deposit? Do you know the risks of a large deposit? Has he installed this material before? Is he installing it this way? Is he installing it that way? Is he installing it to ensure the factory warranty is intact? Does he offer a warranty for his work? Is it in writing? How busy is he?

The list goes on and on and on... and I'm sure there are dozens of questions you could come up with that are important in your field.

.75 cents a square foot can start to seem pretty expensive in the eyes of a good by just plain uneducated customer if he suddenly gets educated to what he *isn't* getting for his .75 cent a square foot job.

If you do all that and it turns out he is going to get a hack job and the customer can't see the value then walk away with your head held high and go find a good customer.


----------



## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Client's will lie to you about anything and everything if you allow it.

The first thing you should have asked this client was about price. What was his budget? Why was his budget at 75 cents a square foot for labor?

Don't cry over spilled milk. Just chalk this one up to the Wal-Mart mentalities of the world and move on. Find a way to get your clients to call you for service, not price. They can get price anywhere.

BTW, in this area Home Despot is at $2.65 a square for laminate install only, prep, base shoe removal/replacement, thresholds, transitions... all extra. If they can ask that price from their clients, who in their right mind would pay 75 cents a square for installation?

For tile removal? They are $4.25 a square foot for demo and haul off and $4.50 a square yard for carpet installation.

If you're charging less than this, you're undercutting Home Despot. Congratulations.


----------



## MattCoops (Apr 7, 2006)

when you low ball, you're always gonna get the other guy that steps on your toes.

In this case, the work is probably gonna blow.
I'd call in a few weeks and see when the homeowner wants to schedule a rip up, and lay the job right.


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

MattCoops said:


> when you low ball, you're always gonna get the other guy that steps on your toes.
> 
> In this case, the work is probably gonna blow.
> I'd call in a few weeks and see when the homeowner wants to schedule a rip up, and lay the job right.



No.

Let them call YOU and then YOU say , "Well, we MIGHT be able to do that job in a couple of months".


----------



## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

MattCoops said:


> when you low ball, you're always gonna get the other guy that steps on your toes.
> 
> In this case, the work is probably gonna blow.
> I'd call in a few weeks and see when the homeowner wants to schedule a rip up, and lay the job right.


They aren't going to call a contractor that they blew off for being too expensive, that would be too embarrassing. They will either live with it or get somebody else in

John


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

john elliott said:


> They aren't going to call a contractor that they blew off for being too expensive, that would be too embarrassing. They will either live with it or get somebody else in
> John


Yep, pride will get in the way before wisdom everytime.


----------



## smitty58 (Nov 26, 2005)

This guy would never admit he got screwed ,but he did come back to talk to me after this lowballer did the job. To my amazement he bragged on the guys work and said "if you ever need some help in carpentry this guy is great". I could not believe the ignorance of this comment. I said no I don't need any help and left it at that. Then he told me the guy took 7 hours to complete 160 sq ft of laminate and do approx 50 ft of base ,and he paid him $200. Then he said the guy picked up 2 more jobs from neighbors while there. Now I'm really struggling for work because mainly we do decks and fences which is basically not winter work ,so him telling me this really did not help. He said the guys family is loaded and his wife is a nurse so I guess he's cool with working for free. So this whole mess kind of makes me not want to be so willing to hand out free advice to Jo-homeowner as I have in the past.


----------



## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

This is just another crux of this business. Keep moving and the good jobs will come.


----------



## MattCoops (Apr 7, 2006)

damn,
talk about pissin in your coffee

maybe if youre that strapped for work
you might want to call around for some sub work

$200 isn't even enough to drive there and set up


----------



## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

smitty58 said:


> "if you ever need some help in carpentry this guy is great".


Check his work. Maybe it's good. Maybe it's outstanding! Who knows? He could be a master craftsman with no math skills. Offer to pay him 10% more than he is getting now, and start subbing him out at $3 per sq. If you can't beat 'em, buy 'em.


----------



## Danahy (Oct 17, 2006)

I think low ballers are necessary in helping to determine who's good and who's not. This guy was a good fit for that type of HO. Forget about him, and move on.


----------



## fci (Dec 11, 2006)

*Not exactly*

You'ld be surprised how many people will lie about a price they have recieved from another contractor. They tell you they are getting an install at 75 cents but they probably are paying just a touch under what you charge. Being gullable will get you in trouble. There are several ways to call their bluff.


----------



## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Chris G said:


> Check his work. Maybe it's good. Maybe it's outstanding! Who knows? He could be a master craftsman with no math skills. Offer to pay him 10% more than he is getting now, and start subbing him out at $3 per sq. If you can't beat 'em, buy 'em.


I agree, and will add to that that I don't understand why so many posters just assume that just because a guy works cheap that his work is less good. All of my work has been good and it was quite cheap for quite a long time. It isn't cheap now, but there are a few HO's out there that had a bargain.

I see the same thing on other forums. people just assume that the lowest price means the lowest performance. It ain't necessarily so.

John


----------



## Doc (Aug 25, 2006)

Just something to keep in mind.

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey."
Ruskin, John


----------



## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Doc said:


> Just something to keep in mind.
> 
> "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey."
> Ruskin, John



Is that for _us_ to keep in mind, or for the home owners?

John


----------



## CENTERVILLE (Dec 15, 2006)

*How hungry are we?*

In my area, alot of work is $8.00/ hour. $80.00 for a 10 hour day before uncie sam steps in. How about a wage garnishment taking half of the rest. A guy jumps in and makes $200.00 in 1 day. He just made out like a fat rat. I bet at $200.00, he isn't licenced, working under the table, or just plain hungry for work. Check the guy out with the state and see if he is licensed. If he is, make sure permits are purchased if they are required. An inspector might love to see this guys fine work, good or not. If all is good, figure out how and why. 

If any one beats me substantially on jobs, I go to work checking out why. If they Know something you don't, try to learn it. If they are hacks they won't last, or if they are working illegally, hang em high & dry.


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

CENTERVILLE said:


> In my area, alot of work is $8.00/ hour.


I couldn't even get a potential employee to show up to fill out an application at lunch time offering $8.00 an hour, even if I was buying lunch!:laughing:


----------



## lawndart (Dec 3, 2006)

Smitty58 Walk away and dont look back. I decided when I first started my business, that I wont get involved in price wars with my competition. I charge what I want, and I dont move one cent. 

If a homeowner asks me if I can do it for a better price, I will politely tell them "I've already given you my best price". If they try and tell me "contractor XXX gave me this price for $$$, knock off $$$ money and the job is yours" I still dont. Afterall if contractor XXX above was soo good why did you call me? 

Let's face it most people will call a couple of guys from the local book, because most HO lack the proper education on whats involved with their project. Afterall they dont want to be ripped off, and should have the opportunity to make a good informed descision. It's never about the price IMO, if it becomes an issue you are not doing a good enough job of educating them, and selling your services.

With that being said, I dont like to talk about my competitors very much, while on my appointments. I dont care about what they do, I'd prefer they focus on my company, and how we can help complete their project. I'm doing this for a very long time, and I'm damn good at what I do. If thats not good enough, I'll politely shake their hand, wish them well, and move on. Although my closing ratio says I walk out the door without a sale only 20% of the time  .


----------



## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

lawndart said:


> If a homeowner asks me if I can do it for a better price, I will politely tell them "I've already given you my best price". If they try and tell me "contractor XXX gave me this price for $$$, knock off $$$ money and the job is yours" I still dont. Afterall if contractor XXX above was soo good why did you call me?



It's not just the homeowners. A lot of the GC's pull that as well. It's one of the oldest gags in the book: 

"We want you to do the job. We have a quote from another sub & if you come down ___ the job is yours. We a have all this work coming up & would love to slide some your way but we need you to come down to___":no:


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The only points I will negotiate are terms and scope. Cash money up front and meeting written scope of work are the only way to reduce my price. Anything else, I raise my price 10% everytime they ask.


----------



## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

Lost a deck job last year. Customer ended up buying the materials and hiring a "contractor" for $1400. It took the "contractor" 3 weeks to finish the deck. $1400 for a second floor deck 24x14 with stairs, I hope his kids starve.


----------



## lawndart (Dec 3, 2006)

Brickie said:


> It's not just the homeowners. A lot of the GC's pull that as well. It's one of the oldest gags in the book:
> 
> "We want you to do the job. We have a quote from another sub & if you come down ___ the job is yours. We a have all this work coming up & would love to slide some your way but we need you to come down to___":no:


Dont forget how tough it is to get your money from them. Some of these guys act like they are doing you a favor when paying you 1 month late.

Thats why I refuse to work for Builders or GC's in my area. I find that subcontracting from some of the local stores, and residential work pays best.


----------

