# am I done as a contractor?



## firePit (Dec 30, 2008)

I really need advice here, and please don't make fun of my writing, English is my second language and it's very hard for me to write this.

here is what happened, I got a remodeling job two month ago, doing popcorn remove (1500 sq ft plaster ceiling ), interior painting (1500 sq ft), remove old wall paper (700 sq ft), demolish old engineer wood flooring (200 sq ft glue down), new kitchen cabinet & granite counter-top, engineer wood flooring (1500 sq ft), two bathroom remodeling one with new Jacuzzi tub & one with shower, some new framing and drywall.....

total amount for the job was $38,000.00 (include most of the material except jacuzzi, toilet, sink, faucet, shower door ) 

I got $1000.00 at signing and $19,000.00 after demolition.

after demolition we removed all popcorn ceiling (scrap off popcorn, applied 3 layer skim coat, new texture & new paint.

than we remove all wall paper, old wood flooring (glued down engineer wood floor), new framing &drywall in living room kitchen & bathroom, fixed all damaged wall and re-texture, and than we start painting the interior of the house.

here is mistake # 1, I did not have the color which was chosen by the customer written on the contract. 
so when she came after we finish most of the interior painting, she told me the color were not what she wants, and she want me to redo it, I try to tell her she pick the color but she said they don't look like the sample I showed her, I did not continue to argue with her and promise to redo the paint once she decide on what she want.

mistake # 2, I didn't have the tile written on the contract.
I ask the ****en lady to go to Lowes with me to pick out the tiles for the kitchen, laundry & bathrooms. she came the next day after we finish installing the kitchen & laundry floor, she start yelling again and said I have use the wrong tile, this time it really piss me off and I ask her what is wrong with her, she pick the tile and now its not what she want again, we argued for a while and I finally told her if she really have problem with my job than she can hire some other contractor to finish the job, she said no and want me to forget about the tile and continue with my job.

mistake # 3, should have stop working for her
so since we haven't start the bathroom tile yet I ask the ****en lady to email me the tiles name and part # to make sure no misunderstanding again, she did and we start working on the bathroom the next day. she came two days later after we finished both bathroom wall and floor tile and she start yelling again, the tile is not what she want, I was so mad I stop all work immediately and sent my guys home, and I told her I will not work on the project anymore and I will send her a bill for the balance she owed me. 
she call me the next day and ask me to continue working on the job and forget about the bathroom tiles, I told her I don't trust her any more and if she want me to continue she will need to have the next payment ready and also she will need to get the rest of the material herself, she refused and told me she's a master in business law and she's making millions of dollars for her company and I better do what she says or she will sue me and I will
be out of business.

I got so mad that I remove all my tool from the job sit the next day, she call me again and ask me why I abandon the job, I told her I can't continue and I will sent her a bill, again she start yelling and threatening to sue me, and finally she calm down and ask me to please continue on the job and she will pay me after I finish the whole job, this time I just refused and hang up the phone.

a few days later she sent me an email and saying that since I abandon the job she have no choice but to hire some other contractor to finish the job, she also said that she will give me $5,000.00 for what I did and want me to give her a refund of $15,000.00. I email her back telling her again I did not abandon the job, I can't continue because she doesn't want to pay me and refuse to cooperate with me and ask her to stop lying.

today I got a letter from my contractor bond company and telling me she had file a claim with the bond company, she claim that I took $20,000.00 from her and abandon the job, she also claim that I used cheap material and the work I did was not acceptable, she also claim that I did not get a city permit for the job (I have email prove that she refuse to get permit to save money).

I also got a letter from CSLB intake/mediation telling me she filed a claim with them, again she claim that I took her money and abandon the job, she also claim that I have employ but with out workers comp (I guess I'm ****ed)

I call the CSLB guy today and he told me that since she claim that I have worker working for me but don't have workers comp, it is better for me to call her and solve the problem without CSLB, otherwise they will be force to investigate and I will have problem with my license.

what should I do now? beg her not to sue me and finish the job? fight the case and find some other job to feed my family, I don't think I can continue the job because she make me want to puke

please advise

thank you so much


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## mikec (Jan 2, 2007)

Not only are you done, you never should have started if you were going to do it without proper insurance, and permits.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

firePit said:


> (I guess I'm ****ed)


That says it just about right.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

You could consider writing a book on how not to be a contractor. That will pay better then what you are now doing.


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

I only pay $32000.00 a year to protect my men, myself, and my homeowners.
When did work comp become an option? By the way be real nice to mean lady.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

I believe you guys are missing the point of who's more wrong here, and aren't getting past your own personal (and business) judgements, even though I agree with your basic (though short-sighted) premisees.

The fact of the matter is (taking for granted here his story is accurate), - - the lady had every intention of screwing him over whether he had proper coverage or permits or not.

In fact, - - I would venture to say she purposely insisted on getting the work done without permits so she could use that against him later.

What needs to be done here is to beat this 'liewyer' beeotch at her own game.

Go back to her house to 'make amends' and _fall off her porch._

With witnesses.


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## Magic Hammer (Dec 11, 2007)

Well, it seems like your getting smarter. Go out of business, take some classes, read about contracts, how to write them etc.
Start another business in a year or two when you're ready. It seems like you were not ready this time. It's a lot more than being a good craftsman.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Well at least you have a contractor's license.

So now that you have gone to school, what have you learned?

This HO knew just how to get you where it counts and you paved the way for her to go there. 

If you want to be legitimate, you have one choice the way I see it. Drive over and beg the lady for another chance to finish the job and do what ever she wants. Knowing full well that final payment may be at least difficult to get.

Then at the same time get your paper in place. Get the liability and WC that real contractors need to do business.

Or you can lose your license and continue to work without any of the legal requirements the rest or us operate with. Continue to pay your guys under the table. And hide from the law.

The second choice is exactly the issue that plagues this business right now. Be a man and do the right thing.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

Tom R said:


> I believe you guys are missing the point of who's more wrong here, and aren't getting past your own personal (and business) judgements, even though I agree with your basic (though short-sighted) premisees.
> 
> The fact of the matter is (taking for granted here his story is accurate), - - the lady had every intention of screwing him over whether he had proper coverage or permits or not.
> 
> ...


I disagree. The OP is the most wrong here - he should have never started or taken the job if the HO insisted on no permits. In furtherance, he should not be in business without the proper insurance coverages. 

Now, lets not even get into his draw schedule or the fact that his contract lacked detailed specifications on the materials to be used, or that he apparently had no "termination for convenience" clause.

Whether or not the HO was intending to screw him from the start is irrelevent - he should have never signed the contract to begin with - all the warning signs were there BEFORE he began the job (her insisting on no permits should have been enough alone for him to say thanks, but no thanks).

Ignorance is no defense.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

What does your contract say as far as specs, payment etc.?

For a job to be considered abandoned, there usually has to a certain time period of now ork done, in Florida it is 6 months I think.

You should never do a job without getting written approval of any colors or other material selection.

Once a client approves a color, if they don't like it, it now becomes a change order.

You are the professional and you should know you had to pull a permit, talk to the building dept. and see what you have to do to pull a permit now.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

DPCII said:


> I disagree. The OP is the most wrong here - he should have never started or taken the job if the HO insisted on no permits. In furtherance, he should not be in business without the proper insurance coverages.
> 
> Now, lets not even get into his draw schedule or the fact that his contract lacked detailed specifications on the materials to be used, or that he apparently had no "termination for convenience" clause.
> 
> ...




Then on your whole premise I should be able to, for instance, murder a prostitute??

She would be breaking the law to begin with, - - so does that in your mind make her more wrong than me??

Again I say, - - you're not looking past your personal business bias in this matter.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

Tom R said:


> Then on your whole premise I should be able to, for instance, murder a prostitute??
> 
> She would be breaking the law to begin with, - - so does that in your mind make her more wrong than me??
> 
> Again I say, - - you're not looking past your personal business bias in this matter.


 
Huh? How do you get that out of what I wrote. Murder is a criminal offense, where as here, we have a civil case that is governed by the boundaries of the contract that both parties agreed to enter into.

In simplicity sake, one is governed by the right and wrong as governed by a society's laws, where as the other is governed by what each party agreed to in advance. Here we have the latter, not the former.

Only, in this case the OP was seriously out gunned and out maneuvered, but he knowingly, and willingly, signed the agreement.

Is the HO a slime ball? Yes, based on what has been written. However, that is not relevent to that fact that the OP entered into a verry poor contract, and did so at his own free will knowing he lacked proper insurance and there were no permits.

This has nothing to do with a bias, it has everything to do with looking at the situation objectively and saying yeah, there are more mistakes here than you can shake a stick at.

In fact, I will concede that the HO will probably try to hire another contractor to finish the job, and probably try to screw that guy too.

However, a basic check by any contractor will show that this HO is litigous and should be a huge red flag.

Seriosuly, how can the OP stand before a judge, arbitrator, licensing board, etc. - as a PROFESSIONAL and say "Yeah, I knew there was no permit, in fact, I have an e-mail claiming the HO insisted on proceeding without one." So a professional just continues in ordinary course? I don't think so.

The reality is, the OP played poker, only he threw all his chips into the pot while at the same time exposing his hand to his opponent.

How many times has it been written here; If you have a bad feeling or see the warning signs - walk away.

You won't lose money on jobs you don't take.

The OP is looking for advice - shut the doors and work for someone else for a while. Learn about contracts and accounting, and how to protect yourself from downside risk.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

This is vindictive, but one thing I would certainly do (since you will have plenty of time sitting around with no jobs) is to birddog that project, and be certian the city is always up to speed on what is happening there.

Don't let her continue construction without paying SOMEONE.


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## codaman (Oct 15, 2008)

Firepit, I appreciate your honesty here but your story is exactly what is wrong in this business. No permit, undocumented workers and no real contract or change orders. You were obviously the low bid and in conducting your business unprofessionally like you did you took a job from a professional who couldn't compete with you who also has a family to feed. Wise up, finish the mess YOU created, if even possible, and stop blaming this lady. You have no one to blame except yourself. What would a permit have cost? $300? How much has your cheap labor cost you now? Good luck!


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

DPCII said:


> Huh? How do you get that out of what I wrote. Murder is a criminal offense, where as here, we have a civil case that is governed by the boundaries of the contract that both parties agreed to enter into.
> 
> In simplicity sake, one is governed by the right and wrong as governed by a society's laws, where as the other is governed by what each party agreed to in advance. Here we have the latter, not the former.
> 
> ...



I'm hardly arguing your point about 'his' wrongs, - - I'm addressing his post about 'hers'.

She's a thief, he's a half-hearted contractor.

She's outright stealing, his 'criminality' is trying to work and make a living.

If I'm going to get upset about bogus contractors, - - I'll start with the ones that are following 'none' of the laws, - - not those who are only following half.

Our government's been telling us for years that it's OK to be 'illegal' because after all, they're just trying to feed their families.

Well, this guy's trying to feed his family too, - - and it sounds like he's made at least some attempt (which is better than none) to be legitimate.


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## DREAM1 (May 25, 2010)

well as a contractor you shoulda known better.when you got your license isn't one of the first things they taught you is to pull permits.nut on the up side this may work in your favor because her being in buisness law she knowingly let you start the job with out permits (as long as you have the e-mail to prove this that is)being an officer of the court she can not knowingly do any thing illegal and could be disbarred for it.(my wife's a lawyer)now for the tile you stated she sent you an e-mail telling you what she wanted.did you keep this e-mail?and did you get what she wanted?for the paint well no documentation on what she wanted the your at fault.now for the non workers comp. WTF are you thinking do you realise if some one gets hurt you would be so screwed walmart wouldn't even hire you.
and how did she know you didn't have comp on your men? because if she being in buisness law knowingly let you work on HER home with out the proper insurence is also breaking the law.you do have some leverage here so use it wisely and you may be ok.i dont care that you didn't have the proper contract that's on you but for pete sakes get some f-en insurence we have to and it p#$%^s me off to see some one skate by with out it while mine keeps going up.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

firePit said:


> I really need advice here, and please don't make fun of my writing, English is my second language and it's very hard for me to write this.
> 
> here is what happened, I got a remodeling job two month ago, doing popcorn remove (1500 sq ft plaster ceiling ), interior painting (1500 sq ft), remove old wall paper (700 sq ft), demolish old engineer wood flooring (200 sq ft glue down), new kitchen cabinet & granite counter-top, engineer wood flooring (1500 sq ft), two bathroom remodeling one with new Jacuzzi tub & one with shower, some new framing and drywall.....
> 
> ...


First guys he has not stated he didn't pull a permit.
Second he has run into an uncooperative customer, as we all have.

Third, he should immediately get WC insurance or go through an employee leasing company so she can't use that against him.

The last thing is, it sounds like he has not abandoned the job by any reasonable definition. He needs to go quietly, hat in hand and try to talk things out with the HO.

I suspect if he keeps his cool, he might have a shot at straightening it out with her.


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## JHC (Jun 4, 2010)

You guys can blame him all you want, but short of stipulating the exact number ID or color into the contract he sounds like he was solid. I have had customers like this, as I am sure many of you have before and no matter what you do they will try and find a reason not to pay you.

If it were me I would just put a lien on the house and count it as a loss. Next time write a better contract.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

JHC said:


> You guys can blame him all you want, but short of stipulating the exact number ID or color into the contract he sounds like he was solid. I have had customers like this, as I am sure many of you have before and no matter what you do they will try and find a reason not to pay you.
> 
> If it were me I would just put a lien on the house and count it as a loss. Next time write a better contract.


I would also except in Cal. they have a licensing board that is quite active in making sure contractors follow the law. That is why I suggested he quickly get his helpers legal and go from there!


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Tom R said:


> ....Our government's been telling us for years that it's OK to be 'illegal' because after all, they're just trying to feed their families.....


Tom, that one statement speaks volumes! Excellent point that almost all of us seem to have missed.


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## Gary L (Nov 24, 2008)

The job I just finished I watched with great pleasure that I was not the painter.

HO went ballistic when they saw the color, up one side and down the other of the painter demanding that he do it over and get the right color. When they got done screaming the painter took from his pocket the paint chip they gave him from the paint store that had the exact color code written right on it. He calmly taped it to the wall and it was a dead match. He said very nicely, " I'll be happy to repaint and make it any other color you pick out but I will not accept the blame after doing exactly what you asked ".

HOs wife was about to start again but the husband put his hand up and said, "He is right, we picked it and it is the color we picked and we will pay him to do it again".


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Gary L said:


> The job I just finished I watched with great pleasure that I was not the painter.
> 
> HO went ballistic when they saw the color, up one side and down the other of the painter demanding that he do it over and get the right color. When they got done screaming the painter took from his pocket the paint chip they gave him from the paint store that had the exact color code written right on it. He calmly taped it to the wall and it was a dead match. He said very nicely, " I'll be happy to repaint and make it any other color you pick out but I will not accept the blame after doing exactly what you asked ".
> 
> HOs wife was about to start again but the husband put his hand up and said, "He is right, we picked it and it is the color we picked and we will pay him to do it again".


And that is how it is done. Cover your butt. I think this painter probably learned from experience. Thank god I don't do tile or paint. 

But we do cameras, which is why I take a lot of photos before hand and get their approval for each one. People think they are going to get a Cecil B. Demille wide screen Technicolor production -- when in fact is is more like what you get out of a Brownie Starmite ( I know that I have dated myself with all those comments ).


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

more CANIPTION fits to come,
cut your losses and _run Forest, run._​


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> Rule #1 in working for a lawyer: Make sure your lawyer is bigger than they are.


Rule 2 Just dont work for them.


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## Home Remodeler (Jun 9, 2010)

Gary L said:


> The job I just finished I watched with great pleasure that I was not the painter.
> 
> HO went ballistic when they saw the color, up one side and down the other of the painter demanding that he do it over and get the right color. When they got done screaming the painter took from his pocket the paint chip they gave him from the paint store that had the exact color code written right on it. He calmly taped it to the wall and it was a dead match. He said very nicely, " I'll be happy to repaint and make it any other color you pick out but I will not accept the blame after doing exactly what you asked ".
> 
> HOs wife was about to start again but the husband put his hand up and said, "He is right, we picked it and it is the color we picked and we will pay him to do it again".


Gary L ..... Goodgman - you got lucky and the husband sided for them- the wife usually wins the battle in an argument......... 

us handymen have these issues - we concour over mishap an do good work :thumbup:


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## Gary L (Nov 24, 2008)

skyhook said:


> more CANIPTION fits to come,
> cut your losses and _run Forest, run._​


I could not say it better! Fortunately they were very happy with the cabinets I built but when they asked me to take over for the finish guy she was having issues with I kindly bowed out, had other jobs to get to, was my excuse when I actually just went fishing for a few days.

Being able to read people in our line of work is probably one of the most important skills we can learn and there are lots of folks out here who will never be happy and will always complain.

On the rare occasions when I do any painting I insist that the HO provides all the paint and writes on the lids where it goes.

Gary


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

has the OP returned to post a response? I haven't seen any posts that he's been back to post an update.


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## tbronson (Feb 22, 2010)

ApgarNJ said:


> It all depends what size your company is. Most contractors with a few employees doing mostly residential don't need 37 page contracts, and if you tried to get a residential customer to sign one that thick, they'd be wondering why you going through all that trouble to have them sign it and be running the other way. now for much larger projects, where half a million or several million are on the line, then a much longer contract is necessary.
> 
> This is an area I am working on right now with my business to cover myself better. I've trusted people too long and been lucky, not saying I work without a contract but I need a better one.


That is very true. I didn't think about it that way since most of our jobs are for commercial/government clients.

But even so I would think that you could whittle that down to about 20 pages and sell it to the HO as being in both their interest and yours because it spells everything out and protects both parties. To me thats a big selling point. The days of my dad doing business on a hand shake or a table napkin agreement are sadly long gone. 

*THANK YOU* Mr./Ms. Lawyer! Now please kindly go outside and play hide and go  yourself for making us into a society that litigates instead of works with each other.


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## AdCon (Jan 15, 2010)

You've got it all wrong! Mistake #1 was not having proper insurance. Mistake #2 was thinking you can remodel a kitchen, two bathrooms, and install so many sq. ft. of floorig for just $38,000.00.

Yes, you may be done and that's great news to all of us legitimate contractors.


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