# Why do they bother?



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Funny, HOs are telling me they can't get a call back from any electrician. It has been that way for months.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I’m up in Oregon right now visiting family, and my MIL and her BF told me they want some electrical work done at their place over in central Oregon and can’t get anyone for 4 months. 👍

Im 3 hours away and on vacation. I’m not doing it. 🤣

I told him “don’t hire the guy that says he can show up tomorrow. There a a reason he’s not busy”. 😳🤣


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Pounder said:


> Just received a bid from a sub, $50k for what is in reality a $20k project. It looks to me like the fellow is looking to clear $5k per day profit off of a three man crew. Why bother wasting your time driving out to look at the job, then writing an estimate that you know is going to get tossed in the garbage? The guy knew I was a GC, and it's pretty obvious I've been around the horn a time or two, is it just the hope that I'm stupid or desperate?
> It annoys me in that it was a waste of my time even talking to the guy. At the price he wanted I could have purchased all of the tools, equipment, and material to do the job, hired tradesmen at $100 an hour each to do the work, and still come out ahead.
> 
> I'm through ranting now. I wonder what's going to piss me off tomorrow?


Hard to say without all the details, but it could just be that in this climate he’s only taking on the jobs he can make a killing on, even if he loses quite a few along the way.

Not my business model, but some folks play that game.


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## dbbii2 (Apr 27, 2017)

It's supply and demand. We know material cost is nuts. There's a labor shortage. No one seems to know when a job will start. Sure, you want to start next week, but do you have the permit? Oh, the site guy can't get there next week, so we are all pushed back a week. Yeah, that's nothing totally out of the ordinary, but when you have limited manpower, it makes it tough to reschedule. When things are going nuts, like now, the subs are in control. When the workload slows down, the Owner/GC is back in control.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> Hard to say without all the details, but it could just be that in this climate he’s only taking on the jobs he can make a killing on, even if he loses quite a few along the way.
> 
> Not my business model, but some folks play that game.


It's a short sited game. Eventually you have a reputation for over charging.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Pounder said:


> It's a short sited game. Eventually you have a reputation for over charging.


Very true, but I do know a number of contractors, subs and generals who are known to be extremely high , many have been for decades and are busy.

I know a guy who does retaining walls and boat docks for the last 35 years, high AF. I make good money on walls and I've seen bids where he's double that cost. Like I look at it and it's 3 guys for 2 weeks and some materials, 20k in cost. To make a small job worth it to me I charge 30-32k , he bids it at 56k lol. He breaks all the societal norms for a rich self made businessman - alcoholic, drinking by 1 pm most days or atleast used to, nice truck but disgusting inside, receipts all over the dash usually, dog in the truck. He's an *******, to everyone including customers and prospects, often wearing camo cargo shorts and crocs - He also has almost no employee turnover

He does good work too but not any better than ours at all, and we do better finish work on the docks. 

He doesn't care to have a lot going on, he has teo crews or he did


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I know my shop is the most expensive in the area by at least 60%.

The only other custom shop can’t do what we do. The first job I did out here was because they could not do two color doors and drawer faces. 

You want insets without have 3” between the door and drawer faces were it. 

I was at a customers yesterday, she did a hybrid for her cabinets, her regret, they didn’t go with us for all their case work. The other shop won’t come back and take care of the little things that’s need to be done. Her sister in law did the same thing, her cabinets we that didn’t do are falling apart after 2 years. 

If a customer wants something, I’ll figure out how to get it done. The cost will reflect this ability.

One of the cabinets I delivered today is 16’ long, weighed about 400 pounds. The island for the same house would have barley fit through the 6’ front door, but you’d need 10 guys to lift it over the plumbing. It was fully assembled here, indexed, disassembled, delivered with everything needed for reassembly. 

I have no problem when someone tells me we’re expensive.

Tom


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Yep, 2 colors.... no problem.










And making a run of cabinets that look like they are one.




















Been there, done that.

You're the best Tom


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

tjbnwi said:


> I know my shop is the most expensive in the area by at least 60%.
> 
> The only other custom shop can’t do what we do. The first job I did out here was because they could not do two color doors and drawer faces.
> 
> ...


Hi end custom work commands a high price. The job I had bids on was stucco, and the house they have to match is poorly done, lumpy, junk. It was a lousy job when it was put on eighty years ago.
I could have stripped the entire house and put on Hardiplank for what he wanted to do the patchwork.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

A job I would have bid for $20k two years ago I would not hesitate to go to $50k. After all, wire has gone up 6x. So what's 20k x6?


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Leo G said:


> Yep, 2 colors.... no problem.
> 
> View attachment 514873
> 
> ...


at figuring out supply and demand.....

(people who own the 2 tones pictured are crying about the cabinet cost for their pool house cabinets, they want RSWO insets throughout with a floating island in the kitchenette area, their builder has spent 6 weeks looking for someone to create them cheeper than us......) 

Tom


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

480sparky said:


> A job I would have bid for $20k two years ago I would not hesitate to go to $50k. After all, wire has gone up 6x. So what's 20k x6?


That's a good thing if your market is willing to pay the price. All of my electric is done in house, so I'm not up to speed on what anyone else is charging. I know what my material and labor will cost, add my P&O and that's the number.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

So what did the bid consist of


Mike


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Pounder said:


> It looks to me like the fellow is looking to clear $5k per day profit off of a three man crew. At the price he wanted I could have purchased all of the tools, equipment, and material to do the job, hired tradesmen at $100 an hour each to do the work, and still come out ahead.


Pounder:

I had a woman customer tell me I was charging $400.00 per hour. So what? You signed the deal. You could have gotten someone else; you didn't. 

How much money this guy clears in a day with a three man crew is absolutely none of your business. 

If you can buy the tools and materials and hire the guys at a hundred an hour, have at it, but don't whine because someone was courteous enough to dignify you with a proposal.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Pounder said:


> Hi end custom work commands a high price. The job I had bids on was stucco, and the house they have to match is poorly done, lumpy, junk. It was a lousy job when it was put on eighty years ago.
> I could have stripped the entire house and put on Hardiplank for what he wanted to do the patchwork.


Patching stucco? My buddy always said don't do it, you'll never blend it in. He wouldn't patch a good stucco job, and he damn sure wouldn't want his name associated with a dogpoo stucco job.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

hdavis said:


> Patching stucco? My buddy always said don't do it, you'll never blend it in. He wouldn't patch a good stucco job, and he damn sure wouldn't want his name associated with a dogpoo stucco job.


A real stucco mason can make it look right imho - with expansion joints in my experience. Flashing is the biggest challenge


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

My problem usually arises that we want three scratches coats, 1 1/8" or so. Often have to do wall corner to corner for thst with all these hack stucco jobs here


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Jaws said:


> A real stucco mason can make it look right imho - with expansion joints in my experience. Flashing is the biggest challenge


Joints can make it happen. Sometimes doorways help, sometimes not.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Got a sub quote on repairing stucco on a poor stucco job. He'd only take it all off and start from scratch. I'm pretty sure he didn't want to match what was there.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

Kowboy said:


> Pounder:
> 
> I had a woman customer tell me I was charging $400.00 per hour. So what? You signed the deal. You could have gotten someone else; you didn't.
> 
> ...


It absolutely is my business when I'm paying the bill. I'd also note that he didn't "dignify" me with an estimate, he tried to gouge the crap out of me. 
Simple question for you. Why don't you increase prices 250% tomorrow morning? You'd make a lot more money, be able to give your crew a nice pay raise, maybe retire early. What's holding you back?


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

hdavis said:


> Patching stucco? My buddy always said don't do it, you'll never blend it in. He wouldn't patch a good stucco job, and he damn sure wouldn't want his name associated with a dogpoo stucco job.


That's the job. I don't get to define it, I just build it. Given my druthers I'd peel the whole house and put on wood siding, but the client doesn't have the budget for that, so it gets patched and the entire building gets coated with acrylic stucco.

I used to have a stucco sub that was superb, patches were near perfect, and he could match anything. He vanished one day, never to be herd from again. I really miss that guy.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Pounder said:


> I used to have a stucco sub that was superb, patches were near perfect, and he could match anything. He vanished one day, never to be herd from again. I really miss that guy.


Maybe he wasn't getting paid enough?  Seriously though - sucks when that happens. Especially with the state of the trades - it's only going to get harder and harder to find guys that can do the work.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Pounder said:


> That's a good thing if your market is willing to pay the price. ...


"The market" has no choice. If the cost of materials has increased 600%, then _everyone _has to pay it.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> "The market" has no choice. If the cost of materials has increased 600%, then _everyone _has to pay it.


When half their outlets go out, yes they have to pay it. When they want a new deck, or a bigger house they can choose not to. Even when they really REALLY should, if they don't have the money, deferred maintenance happens. They might live with half their outlets out.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Pounder said:


> It absolutely is my business when I'm paying the bill. I'd also note that he didn't "dignify" me with an estimate, he tried to gouge the crap out of me.
> Simple question for you. Why don't you increase prices 250% tomorrow morning? You'd make a lot more money, be able to give your crew a nice pay raise, maybe retire early. What's holding you back?


Pounder:

It is none of your business. Your paying the bill is an irrelevant circumstance. It's take it or f^C&!N leave it. Pay the bill or don't or DIY, but don't whine because you didn't like what a fellow businessman told you. In a capitalist system, "gouging" is impossible.

I've got a retrofitted custom sink in production that I'm charging $5,500.00 for. One guy, one day. I got a price from my premium fabricator for a tricky one of $7,800.00 and I have to wait 6 months. I told that customer his job would be 11K or so. He told me it was more than he expected, but not out of the question.

Never, ever, base what you charge on what you think something is worth. That's none of your business either. Your job is to put a proposal together, present it, sub or prime, take it or leave it.

I just gave an installer a 36% pay raise. Not because I'm such a nice guy, but because it was less expensive than the alternatives.

If I thought the market would bear my increasing my prices 250% tomorrow morning, I'd do it without a second thought. I'm running a business here, not a [email protected]&#n charity.

Question for you. Do you ask your waiter how much his boss paid for the steak you're considering? Or do you look at the menu, listen to your stomach, get out your wallet, and keep your mouth shut all the way home? Same thing here.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

smalpierre said:


> When half their outlets go out, yes they have to pay it. When they want a new deck, or a bigger house they can choose not to. Even when they really REALLY should, if they don't have the money, deferred maintenance happens. They might live with half their outlets out.


Not relevant to the cost of materials.


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## Fishindude (Aug 15, 2017)

Sorry, but a high subcontractor quote is not something you are going to get a lot of sympathy pi$$ing and moaning about.
If you are such an expert on the matter, and know what it should cost, do the work yourself. 

If you really want something to pi4$ and moan about, hire a subcontractor for a big job that priced his work too low. I'll guarantee you that will give you a whole lot more trouble.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Again, what did the bid consist of


Mike


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

480sparky said:


> "The market" has no choice. If the cost of materials has increased 600%, then _everyone _has to pay it.


Then they just don't do the job. No one has to do it.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Leo G said:


> Then they just don't do the job. No one has to do it.


So I've been told.

My point is: A roll of 14-2 NM that cost me $28 two years ago now costs $157. That price increase will be reflected in my bid numbers, that which the OP is crying about.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

You've never thrown a hail mary number and got the job?

If he's already busy, it's worth a shot.

I've also thrown stupid numbers if a friend is also bidding and we talked and decided he should get it, makes his bid look way more reasonable.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

Pounder said:


> It absolutely is my business when I'm paying the bill. I'd also note that he didn't "dignify" me with an estimate, he tried to gouge the crap out of me.
> Simple question for you. Why don't you increase prices 250% tomorrow morning? You'd make a lot more money, be able to give your crew a nice pay raise, maybe retire early. What's holding you back?


You aren't paying the bill, the customer is.


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## TwoWaxHack (Aug 6, 2021)

Pounder said:


> Just received a bid from a sub, $50k for what is in reality a $20k project. It looks to me like the fellow is looking to clear $5k per day profit off of a three man crew. Why bother wasting your time driving out to look at the job, then writing an estimate that you know is going to get tossed in the garbage? The guy knew I was a GC, and it's pretty obvious I've been around the horn a time or two, is it just the hope that I'm stupid or desperate?
> It annoys me in that it was a waste of my time even talking to the guy. At the price he wanted I could have purchased all of the tools, equipment, and material to do the job, hired tradesmen at $100 an hour each to do the work, and still come out ahead.
> 
> I'm through ranting now. I wonder what's going to piss me off tomorrow?


I do this when I get to the job and realize that I don’t want to work for the customer for one reason or another.

I’ll give a very high bid to either “ outrage “ the guy or get the job and make working for an idiot worth the trouble.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

Kowboy said:


> Pounder:
> 
> It is none of your business. Your paying the bill is an irrelevant circumstance. It's take it or f^C&!N leave it. Pay the bill or don't or DIY, but don't whine because you didn't like what a fellow businessman told you. In a capitalist system, "gouging" is impossible.
> 
> ...


Two things to note. One, you don't increase your prices because you're closing rate would decrease, netting less volume, and most likely lower profits. In other words, you'd price yourself out of business. Everyone that offers a service faces the same equation.
Second point. If you sat down in a McDonalds and noticed that a big mac was $25 would you pay it or go elsewhere? 
Almost everything has a price point where the cost is greater than the value of the service offered. When someone want's to charge me 250% over what the local market is doing they better stand ready to explain why that number is justified. In this case it's a stucco job, there are a lot of competent plasterers around here, and most of their prices fall within a certain range. 
I have a couple of subs that are at the high end of pricing, I use them because they do quality work and have proven themselves competent trustworthy. Throwing out an absurd number without any information or justification is the mark of a guy that either doesn't understand his business, or is greedy beyond reason. I don't want to deal with either one.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

NYCB said:


> You've never thrown a hail mary number and got the job?
> 
> If he's already busy, it's worth a shot.
> 
> I've also thrown stupid numbers if a friend is also bidding and we talked and decided he should get it, makes his bid look way more reasonable.


That's collusion. Something I wouldn't recommend admitting to in an open forum.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Pounder said:


> When someone want's to charge me 250% over what the local market is doing they better stand ready to explain why that number is justified.


No, Pounder, he only owes you a satisfactory job at the number he quoted. Not an explanation. Not another damn thing. Nothing else is your business.

How much money he's making is not your concern. How often he bangs his old lady and how good it is isn't your business either.


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## Fishindude (Aug 15, 2017)

Pounder said:


> That's collusion. Something I wouldn't recommend admitting to in an open forum.


Well, at least you've got legal expertise 😁


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

480sparky said:


> So I've been told.
> 
> My point is: A roll of 14-2 NM that cost me $28 two years ago now costs $157. That price increase will be reflected in my bid numbers, that which the OP is crying about.


That's entirely incorrect. Clearly you didn't read or understand what I posted. 
Material and labor increases are a normal and expected part of doing business. Increasing prices when you're busy is also a normal and expected part of operations. But like everything, it can be done to excess.
A sub is welcome to ask any amount he wants, and I'm welcome to add his name to the list of subs to never bother calling when his numbers have no relation to reality. 
My entire point here is that the fellow wasted everyone's time. He knew I was a GC, he knew I've been in business for decades. He should have simply said "not interested". Instead he chose to present himself as a fellow that doesn't understand his business.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Why don’t you post what the job consisted of so we can get a better idea


Mike


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

When I first started out I learned real quick that the high-ballers didn’t know what they were doing, not the other way around. Good subs know what to charge, they don’t guess.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

Kingcarpenter1 said:


> When osb went from $10. To $50. did you ask the vendor why they bothered? Anybody that knows anything about business is doing the same. You wanna state what the bid consisted of now
> 
> 
> Mike


Apparently you don't understand the situation. When OSB hit $80 a sheet I shopped around. Had I found other vendors that were selling it for twenty, I would have stopped doing business with the first vendor. 
Price from another reputable sub for the work was just over $20k. Had another fellow who said he could do it for "around" $12k, but he wasn't licensed so I didn't consider using him.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Yep. Comp bids are the norm in local public bids too. Crooked contractors and dunce city management 

Very hard to prosecute collusion though, atleast in Texas. When I was TAB board three cases were brought up state wide that year and all three cases were dismissed


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

These diamond doors are a prefect example of saying yes or no.

My designer priced these through a national door/drawer box fabricator. There are 16 total these 8 are the largest at ~16x16, 4 are RSWO.

The price from the fabricator to get these to me was just under 7500.

The cut for glass doors were ~650, the diamond inserts were 6500, the shipping was 350.

The fabricator knows most shops don’t make their own doors (or drawer boxes) anymore, let alone something like these. I understand these would have to be done by their custom shop people.

My decision was, no, we’ll fab them here.

We will have 10 hours in these, the material for the inserts is drop off from this job. Didn’t need to get anything special to fab these.

The fabricator was asked for a cost for these, I guess they shouldn’t have bothered sending the estimate……….

Tom


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Folks this ain’t hard to understand.

No one is questioning the “right” of any company to charge what they damn well please.

On the other hand, if I walked into an ordinary steakhouse and found all the steaks were $600 dollars, it would probably elicit a What In The Sideways FKK from me, I’d walk out, and probably post about the crazy steakhouse on CT.

That’s it.

There is a “market value” for almost everything. I know this because if I started bidding basic new construction with mid range upgrades for $1,200 SF, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t get any takers.

It’s extremely efficient for a GC to know ballpark numbers on sub work. Thats how I can ballpark estimates for customers. If I suddenly got a roof quote from one sub that was 4 times the price of all the others I’d probably wonder what his problem was and bichh about it here. 👍🤣


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Pounder said:


> Apparently you don't understand the situation.


Apparently you don’t want to post what job consisted of so anybody would have a better idea. How could anybody have a clue. Talking r&r or what. Sounds like tunnel vision


Mike


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Pounder said:


> The pivotal point is that contractor A doesn't know what contractor B is charging. When they share that information it's collusion.


Sharing information isn't illegal. Acting on it in an illegal fashion is.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Kingcarpenter1 said:


> Apparently you don’t want to post what job consisted of so anybody would have a better idea. How could anybody have a clue. Talking r&r or what. Sounds like tunnel vision
> 
> 
> Mike


Why are you hung up on this?

He said it was a stucco repair, that usually goes for 20k. At 50, he could reside the entire house

And another sub quoted him 20. So he wonders about the 50k quote.

That’s all. It ain’t rocket surgery.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

hdavis said:


> And here I'm sitting on 250' rolls of 10, 12, 14 GA wire, and no use in sight.
> 
> No electricians in sight, either.


I’ll pay shipping. 👍🤣😳😬


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> He said it was a stucco repair,


That might explain it for you, but tells me nothing


Mike


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Not relevant to the cost of materials.


No, it's not at all relevant to the cost of materials. The price of the job is the price of the job - period. it might change whether or not the job gets done, but I'd rather not get a job than get it and lose money - A saying I heard here years ago - "I've never lost money on a job I didn't get" - words to live by


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Maybe some day, the light will come on.


This is not what I want to hear from an electrician! 🤣
Well played sir, well played!


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

Pounder said:


> https://www.justice.gov/atr/file/810261/download
> 
> 
> 
> The pivotal point is that contractor A doesn't know what contractor B is charging. When they share that information it's collusion.


It's also still a free market, it's not like myself and one other guy have the entire market cornered. You can solicit hundreds of bids.


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## Pounder (Nov 28, 2020)

NYCB said:


> It's also still a free market, it's not like myself and one other guy have the entire market cornered. You can solicit hundreds of bids.


True enough. Do you think that defense would get you a reduced sentence?
Again my point seems to have been lost in the weeds. All I was saying is that this isn't something you should admit to doing in a public forum. That's all. I'm not condemning you for it, not pointing a finger, not saying it doesn't happen. Just suggesting that it's best kept to yourself. The first rule of fight club and all that.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

It's not illegal, or even immoral, so I have no problem admitting I've done it.

Like the other guy said, it's not price fixing, it's just me declining a bid by pricing myself out of it....much like the sub you are complaining about did.


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## CarpenterRN (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm curious as to why someone would waste their time bidding the job if they didn't want the work?


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

CarpenterRN said:


> I'm curious as to why someone would waste their time bidding the job if they didn't want the work?


Bid it at a price that you would want to do it for? Like if it's an ******* customer that you really don't want to deal with, but an extra 20 grand would make it pallateable - maybe they go for it?


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

CarpenterRN said:


> I'm curious as to why someone would waste their time bidding the job if they didn't want the work?


What if by some small chance they bite and you make a pile on it?

If it meant making an extra 10 grand in say 1-2 weeks, I'm sure it would be possible to find a place to fit the job in. Otherwise, no big deal.


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## CarpenterRN (Dec 3, 2009)

That's not always the case though. I had a painter bid a cabinet finish earlier this year. I got the job using his price and he still didn't want the work, but was too unprofessional to tell me straight up. There were no issues between us, so no reason not to do the work other than he didn't want to and didn't expect to get the job with the quoted price. The painter I had do the work was less than 1/3 of the other painter. Both painters are the top of the line in town. The second painter has done more work for me and will get more as I need their service. The original painter will never get work or a good word from me ever. If the original painter had just told me he was too busy, then great I'll catch you on the next one.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

He didn't bid it high enough to want to do it then.


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## CarpenterRN (Dec 3, 2009)

Apparently not. Though the experience gave me the opportunity to find a painter who does as good of work and doesn't give me bids on work they don't want to do or rather prices the work they want to do correctly the first time.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Another moron misled by the corrupt media probably didn't see Joe Biden strong arming Russia to drop investigations on his kid doing p*** and crack with Russian hookers after they stole his laptop.
There's your Russian collusion but they throw out a story that Trump is like a mobster and always been corrupt only because he doesn't play their game and you run with it with no proof whatsoever we can show you videos of the biden's.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

OK, so a guy on strike has an idea of how to run a business - he should run his that way. 

Deciding what a a "fair" price to charge customers can put you under in the long run.

Ignoring the rest of the nonsense, when demand goes up and supply stays the same or goes down price goes up.

I don't have an issue with people controlling their workload by not returning calls or floating a high price. I don't hear a lot if bitching when the tables are turned and people are bidding to keep their doors open with low bids.

You want stable pricing? Let govt boards set them.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Tom, this isn't P&R


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

kfreed said:


> You clearly missed the meaning of "free market." In the long run, the consumers you're trying to fleece will have the last word, as in NO. You see, a free market includes the people you're scamming. Fair wages, fair dealing, fair price or compete yourself right out of the market. THAT'S how he free market works.


So other countries can put tariffs on all our stuff but we have to have "free trade" on our end? Is that how it goes now? The tariffs made it fair for the US price structure so the jobs would stay here. We had manufacturing coming back to our country and employment was much better than it had been in many presidents.

It's also a national security issue to be able to depend on your own country for resources. In times of emergency if you need something from another country and they don't want to part with it you're screwed. It happened with PPE and it's going to happen with rare Earth metals. 

Making a country self sufficient is a good thing.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Leo G said:


> So other countries can put tariffs on all our stuff but we have to have "free trade" on our end? Is that how it goes now?


Yup. Change bad deals, and it screws everything up lol.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

kfreed said:


> . Then he lets a pandemic go unchecked and tells you to go ahead and drink bleach.


Proof?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Whoopie says so...


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

kfreed said:


> I would like to meet the one guy on the planet who built an entire house by himself. No, not the outhouse, an actual modern home. The so-called jacks of all trades here in the comments are suspect, to say the least.


By themselves? Why would a profesional do that, it's inefficient. I didn't do the drywall, paint, tile, etc... on my own home much less a paying job.

For sure lots of people have built homes mostly on their own though. Growing up my dad did everything on our own house including MEPs, my granddad laid all the tile, did his own stucco, paint, drywall, insulation etc... and of course formed and poured the foundation, framed, cornice, trim, cabinets. Both men were professional carpenters and generals.






























As to my comment we use in house carpenters for a lot, when I say I would like to do something in house I mean in house personell, I'm not wearing bags on a daily basis with our work load. My brother started the cabinet shop for our projects in 2012, we have two guys who build all the cabinets and built ins in the shop. All soft close, full extension, etc... 

I came up as a carpenter setting forms and framing, doing cornice and interior trim, that used to be the norm, specializationdidnt hit the region at all until the 90s- still is for us. I'm no cabinet carpenter or Painter, havent ever finished drywall, but have done a lot of structural welding, etc... If you can frame you can set forms, if you can perform interior trim well you'll be good at decking and cornice. We do a lot of our own welding as well, plenty of pics on this site of our work. Our last five Parade homes were in house foundation, framing, cornice, trim and cabinets, so is 2021s in the pics. Subbed that steel boat dock because of timing, but as shown dozens of times on the site we generally do them in house


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

My sister and her hubby DIYd their first house. Mainly her hubby.

Their second house they hired a framing crew, concrete, site work, and high drywall.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

kfreed said:


> You mean trying to figure out the highest number you can pull out of your rear end before you get the boot. If you just charge for materials up front and acquire as needed and then calculate labor, insurance, fees, overhead, etc. there's no guess work involved. The BS is extremely heavy on this site. We can all check our own materials costs, you know. Ya'll are out of control. Reel it in.





kfreed said:


> He wouldn't be getting it from me. Fairness is a two-way street. Ultimately, these creeps are gouging single-family homeowners, many of whom aren't exatly yanking bills off the money tree. It's especially galling when we're out in support of labor (because we are alos labor, but in different industries) only to end up with spit on our faces. What goes around, comes around. Be decent or be gone.





kfreed said:


> You clearly missed the meaning of "free market." In the long run, the consumers you're trying to fleece will have the last word, as in NO. You see, a free market includes the people you're scamming. Fair wages, fair dealing, fair price or compete yourself right out of the market. THAT'S how he free market works.


Actually the framer giving me a price he thinks is appropriate, even if it is double normal pricing, and me choosing to pay it or not IS the free market. Supply and demand. When we were paying 80 dollars a sheet for 7/16 Zip that's the free market setting the price. 

"Free market" doesn't exist though - it's highly regulated primarily by retards in office who couldn't run a gas station...

As to the framer not getting the work from you, he wouldn't give a ****, the reason he could name that price is supply and demand, and he's in demand. I'm a professional home builder not a hobbiest, it made more dollars, which makes more sense, to pay his price and get my builder fee and keep that job rolling while my carpenters were making money on other projects. Feelings about the price don't enter into it.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

kfreed said:


> It's called price gouging. Since not a lot of work was going on last year, people put off home improvement projects. Trump then screwed up our trade agreements and materials acquisition became an issue. Once vaccines came out, people were feeling better and everybody got busy again, but the backlog has grown, so now it's a free for all. We'll remember who was doing the gouging when the bubble bursts again and the whining resumes. We see you. Since the window is closing again due to a new COVID variant and the man-children among us are refusing to get vaccinated, we'll be back at square one. If the backlog is too great, just be honest and tell people you're swamped and can't do it. Using this as an excuse to gouge other working people just like yourselves makes for bad business and enemies for life. The arrogance on top of that isn't endearing either. Personally compiling lists of decent guys making good pay, doing great work, and keeping them in my contacts. They've got our business for life. The get rich quick bros will be standing out in the cold sooner rather than later.


Where do you live that it wasn't busy last year? Demand was outrageous from May 2020 through now for construction and remodeling- on a national scale.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Democrats believe thei


hdavis said:


> Tom, this isn't P&R


I Know couldn't resist when he's blaming Trump. Not only could Americans use jobs and being self sufficient but it should never be cheaper or more "climate friendly" shipping someone else's product around the globe.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

hdavis said:


> My sister and her hubby DIYd their first house. Mainly her hubby.
> 
> Their second house they hired a framing crew, concrete, site work, and high drywall.


I’ve done just about everything at one time or another except poured concrete foundation walls and septic systems. I could do both of those if I really wanted to but why? I might take a stab at installing a septic one day but for now I just don’t have the time. I even drilled my own well with 4” submersible pump once.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> /pics of that gorgeous house


I have a serious case of house envy aside from the neighbors right there. Makes mine look like a fancy outhouse... Excellent job!


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## wazez (Oct 25, 2008)

NYCB said:


> You've never thrown a hail mary number and got the job?
> 
> If he's already busy, it's worth a shot.
> 
> I've also thrown stupid numbers if a friend is also bidding and we talked and decided he should get it, makes his bid look way more reasonable.


You may want to be careful with that. To my understanding it would be a violation of the Sherman antitrust act.


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## Djea3 (Jul 6, 2020)

Leo G said:


> Price didn't go up. Value of the dollar went down.


NO, that has NOT happened YET. IT will. And soon. The prices went up due to PROFITEERING globally, and now the dollar is beginning to move down. But the prices went up 300% on major materials beginning the day that Biden took office. They may come down may not. However we now get to pay 9 bucks a stick, and we can now build with GERMAN studs purchased at the Orange box.
We are about to see depreciation of the dollar, it is not going to be pretty at all. Along with it we will probably see inflation rear up hugely. The late 70's will look like the good old days. 
If you don't think that the liberals have planned this then you have your head in the sand. There is a global plan and the US is not to be a leader in it. believe me. We will be third world at best. why do you think our southern border is wide open? why do you think that all manufacturing was moved overseas by Clinton? Why do you think that China (at the time could not feed its people) was given not only the right to manufacture high tech, but literally given the tech if we allowed them to produce for us? Think of it. China was brought forward 50 years in tech in 3 years. No joke about it at all. All under Clinton. We engineers all asked how long before the crash? it was the first quarter of 2001, 6 months before 911 when the US hit the skids like those jets hit the trade towers.


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## Djea3 (Jul 6, 2020)

kfreed said:


> Um no. Trump screwed up our trade agreements and let a pandemic go unchecked. Maybe stop intalling the lazy, entitled spawn of right-wing industry heirs. Every chance they get these days, they wreck the economy and drive up the deficit. You can set your watch by it.


Have you EVER actually read the United States CONSTITUTION? You know that therein lies the powers and limits of office. Political DIMWITS want to give the credit or blame of say...congress' job to the president or visa versa. Go read the powers and limitations of each of the 3 estates as written in the Constitution. Then you will cease to SPEW idiocy like this.
Until you do that there can be no discussion. IF you had done that your statement would not be made or would be left wing propaganda.
In fact, it is the Nuveau Money left wing billionaires and silicon companies that are controlling the media and the country at this time.


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## Djea3 (Jul 6, 2020)

Leo G said:


> It's also a national security issue to be able to depend on your own country for resources. In times of emergency if you need something from another country and they don't want to part with it you're screwed.


I was a Manufacturing Engineer in Silicon Valley. I can tell you that in the 80's and 90's every manufacturer made sure they had 2 or 3 suppliers, even if it was custom products. One supplier may only get 10% of production but their lines could be increased in a moment. No one sent everything to Malaysia. Just one late container could destroy a company. 

Then came Bill Clinton. He signed agreements with China that made NO sense. Gave them the TECH on anything they manufactured including proprietary chips! When companies sent to China and other Asian places they began to eliminate the 2nd and 3rd sources. That is why we have the issues with C-19 today. We engineers made best on how long it would take to destroy production in the USA. We figured 3 years from Clinton's BS. China was so far behind technologically it took until end of first quarter 2001, 6 months before 911. I had been laid off and had three job offers. Before I could start the job I chose all employment ended throughout Silicon Valley, hiring freezes and layoffs. 5000 applications per job. Then 911 after our unemployment ran out and we were ineligible for extension believe it or not.

This is a national security issue but the government wants the USA to always be in trouble and not have productivity (except in construction and lending). Now we have issues with lumber yards full of material ready to ship and not shipping today because they want HIGHER PRICES and more PROFIT. Instead we are seeing lumber from Germany in box stores in the USA. C-19 is being used to explode values and exploit profits in every building trade and the reason is USA productivity and protection against foreign control does not exist.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Dfea3 may appreciate some if thus. After Nixon established relations, technology export was very tight. China was able to buy obsolete Fab equipment in the 80s. They couldn't buy anything that wasn't obsolete.

Clinton's change meant they could get approval for equipment that wasn't obsolete. Fab, missile,...

The switch from having second sources to single source was US management following Japanese quality and supply management practices. The idea is to get higher quality, lower costs, shorter lead times and lower inventories. It works as long as there are no hiccups.

Having a system for second sourcing chips these days would be tough. The foundries used would have to achieve a certain level of compatibility. That doesn't exist any more.


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## Djea3 (Jul 6, 2020)

hdavis said:


> US management following Japanese quality and supply management practices. The idea is to get higher quality, lower costs, shorter lead times and lower inventories. It works as long as there are no hiccups. Having a system for second sourcing chips these days would be tough. The foundries used would have to achieve a certain level of compatibility. That doesn't exist any more.


I worked in Silicon Industry for 30 plus years, from Lockheed to Fab Shops and from wind turbines to high tech baby beds and potato or even strawberry harvesters. The Japanese NEVER had single source and no corporation in thier right mind would (read Demming if you do not believe me he was adamant about that and he was the one that made Japan a world manufacturer). ALL of the companies I worked with were one form of JIT or another. All had MULTIPLE sources for EVERY product. Multiple sources was an ENGINEERING MANDATE. The problem was that virtually every company ended that mandate at the end of 1st quarter 2001. Thereafter came the real problems and that was all based on CHINESE interference in trade and true single sourcing of even custom fabrications. That was WRONG and dangerous and the US is dying today because of it. That simple.
As I said, we figured 3 years maximum after Clinton signed. It was much longer...and hit us much harder than anyone could have thought.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Got something similar today. Got a bid on a 4/3.5 from my plumber that was about 80% higher than normal. I broke down the fixtures into the bid and removed Navien - 2k a hole. 

I holler at him. Hey hoss, you mad at me? 😆

I said last year I was paying 900 a hole, then it's been about 1250 for all year - now it's 2gs. 

He said is that too high? 

I said thats more than I'd be willing to pay at this time, but thst doesn't mean it's too high. 

He said well I has to try 😆

Man wtf. He's getting it I guess. He revised my bid


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

PVC has gone up.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Big Johnson said:


> PVC has gone up.


Yeah that's why it's 1250 not 900. Pvc going up doesn't increase total price by 80% 😆

He wants to do that that's cool he just won't be my plumber right now


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Jaws said:


> Yeah that's why it's 1250 not 900. Pvc going up doesn't increase total price by 80% 😆
> 
> He wants to do that that's cool he just won't be my plumber right now


How do you calculate this per hole price? I want to see where my guy is at? Is a double vanity 2 holes? Vents? I think we’ve had this discussion before but I can’t remember.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Big Johnson said:


> How do you calculate this per hole price? I want to see where my guy is at? Is a double vanity 2 holes? Vents? I think we’ve had this discussion before but I can’t remember.


In a bathroom with a double vanity, single shower head/handheld and toilet is 4 holes. If it's got teo shower heads it's 4.5


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Fridge and Ice makers are .5 hole. Washing Machine full hole


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Jaws said:


> Fridge and Icelanders are .5 hole. Washing Maxhine full hole


My guys about $800 but I don’t get the diva tax.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Big Johnson said:


> My guys about $800 but I don’t get the diva tax.


Plumbers competitive with other quality plumbers at 1250. Mason does limestone for svwryone else for 9 and sandstone for 10 I pay 10 and 11. Stucco he's 7 for them 7.75 for me - I'm friends with a lot of builders he works with

I also want a lot more ties and am picky on a lot of stuff. Went through 5 roofers before i found one that would work for me or I with them on standing seam. I've probably torn out 5 backsplashes and 3 showers before I found a good tile guy when ours retired. Most cabinet and trim guys are trash, only person ive ever subbed trim to is AustinDB. Same for framers.

Trades here are trash overall in general unfortunately


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

[QUOTE="Jaws, post: 7961648, member: 70163"

Trades here are trash overall in general unfortunately
[/QUOTE]

Jaws, you don't get to brag about kicking the $&!t out of your plumber's bid while simultaneously saying the trades are trash. If the trades are trash, that's what the marketplace (you) has demanded by beating their prices down so much that they can't afford to not be trash. 

I'm sure you tell your customers low price, fast service, or quality, pick two. The same applies to you Hoss.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Trades here are trash overall in general unfortunately



Jaws, you don't get to brag about kicking the $&!t out of your plumber's bid while simultaneously saying the trades are trash. If the trades are trash, that's what the marketplace (you) has demanded by beating their prices down so much that they can't afford to not be trash.

I'm sure you tell your customers low price, fast service, or quality, pick two. The same applies to you Hoss.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> Jaws, you don't get to brag about kicking the $&!t out of your plumber's bid while simultaneously saying the trades are trash. If the trades are trash, that's what the marketplace (you) has demanded by beating their prices down so much that they can't afford to not be trash.
> 
> I'm sure you tell your customers low price, fast service, or quality, pick two. The same applies to you Hoss.


Did you not pay attention to what Jaws said?

How do you beat down subs by paying them more?...


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Jaws said:


> Plumbers competitive with other quality plumbers at 1250. Mason does limestone for svwryone else for 9 and sandstone for 10 I pay 10 and 11. Stucco he's 7 for them 7.75 for me - I'm friends with a lot of builders he works with
> 
> I also want a lot more ties and am picky on a lot of stuff. Went through 5 roofers before i found one that would work for me or I with them on standing seam. I've probably torn out 5 backsplashes and 3 showers before I found a good tile guy when ours retired. Most cabinet and trim guys are trash, only person ive ever subbed trim to is AustinDB. Same for framers.
> 
> Trades here are trash overall in general unfortunately


My stone supplier told me 70+ yo guys are coming out of retirement because there’s a huge shortage of skilled masons around here and they’re making a shlt load of money.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Big Johnson said:


> My stone supplier told me 70+ yo guys are coming out of retirement because there’s a huge shortage of skilled masons around here and they’re making a shlt load of money.


It's actually a sleeper trade. Jesse pays his 4 crew leaders about 2k a week and a nice truck, his lowest paid guy is a tender making 900 a week. Tenders are the only hourly guys, the Masons and crew leads are piece work. 2 of his crew leads worked for his dad and have been doing rock work for them for 20+ years. 

There's 2 other large Masons here about the same, but they are more production based imo and Jesse will not ***** a second if I call him for a patch, point up or one column etc and he didn't when I went 4 years without selling a house. He's done hundreds of repairs for me, the others don't want that kind of work but during the recession called all the time wanting repair work lol


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> Jaws, you don't get to brag about kicking the $&!t out of your plumber's bid while simultaneously saying the trades are trash. If the trades are trash, that's what the marketplace (you) has demanded by beating their prices down so much that they can't afford to not be trash.
> 
> I'm sure you tell your customers low price, fast service, or quality, pick two. The same applies to you Hoss.


Beat his bid down? Really? I simply told him I wouldn't pay 2k a hole for something I could get the same install, schedule, materials and insurance coverage for at 1250 from another plumber who'd love to have our houses. He must of decided 1250 was a fair deal because he didn't get off the phone before he'd revised 

What you probably fail to understand about larger scaled business in the custom residential realm is while you want to be able to move pricing all around and that's cool for what you do - most builders subs don't work for homeowners and don't want to unless they are an MEP trade on a service call - my mason doesn't want to perform rock work at double the price for a homeowner, neither foes my Painter, insulator, roofer or drywall contractor. They don't want to sell, they like builders to sell the work and their best case scenario is setting a price with me and know if I get the house I won't bid them out and that they'll get 8-12 nice projects and 10 smaller projects. 

I didn't ***** one minute when the prices of my MEP trades went up 25-40% in the matter of monthes and I didn't bid any of them out even if it was a bid job I ate the overage on - I could defintely get cheaper bids but that's not operating within the integrity we operate in. No exaggeration- I haven't bid a single sub contractor out in the last 12 months for any reason and my cost to build the house in 30% higher. If the house cost ME 400k last year it's 520k now, a couple bid houses I'll be lucky walk away paying for my truck fuel after 13 years of hitting projected GPM. 

Beat down his bid my ass, your opinion on anything in this business is worth about as much as my 11 year Olds sink Boi. If I need to change a sink or faucet out I'll look you up 😆


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

hdavis said:


> Did you not pay attention to what Jaws said?
> 
> How do you beat down subs by paying them more?...


Nah he thinks he knows everything so never strengthened that reading comprehension.

Hope my plumber doenst starve or his wife is OK with her High Country Tahoe or his 90k bass boat doesn't need repairs he's probably hurting at 30% gross margins lol


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

As to the majority of trades here being trash, I'm talking about their work, and I maintain that is accurate. Lack of competition in a rich area they can charge top dollar and do half ass work, everything I have to change subs I have to go through a bunch to find one I like and can keep up 

A number of my subs have been with me more than 10 years, same for hands


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Jaws said:


> As to the majority of trades here being trash, I'm talking about their work, and I maintain that is accurate. Lack of competition in a rich area they can charge top dollar and do half ass work, everything I have to change subs I have to go through a bunch to find one I like and can keep up
> 
> A number of my subs have been with me more than 10 years, same for hands


I can attest to that. Go in to some of those million dollar homes even 15 years ago, and you could see tile and stone work that was a hack job.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

hdavis said:


> I can attest to that. Go in to some of those million dollar homes even 15 years ago, and you could see tile and stone work that was a hack job.


I have torn plenty of it out. Why do you think we do a lot our foundations, all the framing and cornice, trim and 70% of the cabinets? Lol Standards


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

The objective is to bid the job as high as possible and still get the job. 

How that's done is the important part.


Mike.
*___*


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Calidecks said:


> The objective is to bid the job as high as possible and still get the job.
> 
> How that's done is the important part.
> 
> ...


Yep. If I wanted cheaper plenty of wanna bes out there wiring and piping houses 25% less and you'll know the difference 😆

Same for builders, mechanics, cpa, etc... usually. Highest doesn't mean best but often they are at least with sub trades


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