# How soon until the employee well is run completely dry??



## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

Where the hell are all the employees!????!??

I've talked to many guys like myself running small operations, salesmen, vendors, etc. etc. They all say the same....it's impossible to find help of any kind. Some can't get anyone to reply to ads, others to show up for interviews.

I've tried about 8 different methods from ads on Facebook to Craigslist to word or mouth among friends in the trades to putting the word out with my salesmen that I'm hiring. Like others, I've had terrible luck and it has NOTHING to do with pay. They don't even care how much I'm offering, no one calls.

I just placed an ad on Craigslist and the Jobs section for Skilled Trade is FILLED with identical ads, some blatantly offering $20-25/hr without expecting you to be a master in anything. Other ads beg for people to respond ASAP and claim you can be on their job site tomorrow morning. I've never seen anything like this in my life, and it's extremely frustrating. 

I can sell my self, my work and my company...but I can't find anyone to do the actual jobs. This is going to get a whole lot worse in the future.


----------



## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

I as lucky enough to find one last week. He was working for the sider who showed up during our last hour. He wanted to frame and i was offering a couple bucks more. He showed up a week later.


----------



## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

imho, you have to find them young and train them right.


----------



## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Also, I am moving away from trades that take a long time to train someone in.


----------



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Well, you know my thoughts on this Matt. :laughing:

In the long term, I think it's going to be a good thing as this shortage is bound to drive up prices and entice a new generation of tradespeople. In many ways, it may lead to a new boom time, but an actually sustainable one because the demand will outstrip the supply for a long time if we have to spend years developing the work force.

How many of you guys with teenage kids are just going to watch them go off to study Comparative Literature for $35k a year when you know they can make a damn good living at the age of 20 if they come into the trades?


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

My second tedm as president of our home builders association, we got a trades program slightly started in 4 high schools. Soon to be 5 i think. High school kids hire on with a trade contractor part time during the school year and full time during the summer is what they are trying to get started now. I might try a senior next summer, but I'm using more subs now, and i dont know what i can use a high school kid for yet.

I did sponsor any kid from our division who wants to be a member of the NAHB trades program yesterday. Hope to see some get trades school scholarships. 

Not a lot of takers so far. We will see.

This issue is discussed at every TAB and NAHB confrence i have been to in the last 18 months.


----------



## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Me and another buddy trade off one of our good buddies. I don't know of anyone else who I can hire who is worth it. They are all either working already, or work for themselves. I can't even find another contractor to help when I need it. We are all busy. I could dig up more work, but I can't find any other help that I can leave on a job and the job would get done correctly and in a timely manner.


----------



## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

it is hard to find workers that want to play in the mud and not know if they will work a full day because of the weather when they can set at a screen and make 20 to 30 bucks hour.
i bid a 38 million dollar apt complex one of 6 going up in town. had to pass on the full bid to trim it i could not find guys to trim at $30 per hour.
most of the workers on the job site are from Georgia or Texas.


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

jhark123 said:


> imho, you have to find them young and train them right.


 I agree with this. I try to hire in advance of need---
for example---- If I hire a young guy--- his first year is mostly spent learning how not to kill himself---or anyone else on the job. along the way he is doing basic labor tasks, learning to cut slate, learning to identify tile etc.--- we barely break even on the guy--- but he is worth it because he frees everyone else up on the job to do more lucrative tasks.

the second year he can begin joining in on basic production- but he doesn't REALLY start earning for us until his 3rd year

so we have to hire well in advance of need--- train relentlessly---and the guy has to see his career arc in front of him. He has to know that he has benefits, paid holidays--- that he will be able to buy a house of his own---get married, raise children---send them to safe schools--- that he isn't stuck shoveling crap into a dumpster--- but that he can advance,earn more, take on new challenges etc.

If I wait until we are swamped with work and then try to find a warm body to fill a hole--- well good luck with that.

I m looking for a new 1st year guy to start next spring--- but if I find him now, I will start him tommorrow!--- in advance of need.
stephen


----------



## Jethroe (Jan 27, 2007)

We are a small service and remodel firm in Tulsa OK. We must have gone through about twenty this summer all of them expected top pay and thought the job was going to be easy money.
But it wasn't easy and they didn't earn top pay Every single one of them have fired themselves within two or three days of starting none made it through the first project. We get hate mails all of the time for what we are starting at $18.50 per hour and then becoming a team player that can handle the work entails more $$$ so far no good just a lot of talk.
(One guy I recall even tried to bring his girlfriend to work 2nd day I told him he couldn't and he left with her never to return)
Interviewed a guy yesterday at Home Depot (20 YO) and he was supposed to follow me to the jobsite but his truck had other plans for him.


----------



## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

Seems anyone worth hiring already has a job.


----------



## Rhode Island (Mar 24, 2015)

I gave up with hired labor. I now rely on friends. If I need them they take a day off from cubicle land or meet me after work. I pay them per day and a whole lot more than they make at their day job. I do this part time so I can't really afford to hire a friend full time. Not too mention workers comp. I can see how full timers have a problem.


----------



## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Stephen H said:


> I agree with this. I try to hire in advance of need---
> for example---- If I hire a young guy--- his first year is mostly spent learning how not to kill himself---or anyone else on the job. along the way he is doing basic labor tasks, learning to cut slate, learning to identify tile etc.--- we barely break even on the guy--- but he is worth it because he frees everyone else up on the job to do more lucrative tasks.
> 
> the second year he can begin joining in on basic production- but he doesn't REALLY start earning for us until his 3rd year
> ...


Agreed, too many treat their laborers like **** and then wonder why they dont stick around.


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

jhark123 said:


> Agreed, too many treat their laborers like **** and then wonder why they dont stick around.


 Our newest guy is currently putting the finishing touches on an inventory system for our slate and tile.
In april his job with us was mostly shoveling debris into a dump trailer and carrying buckets of mortar up 32 foot ladders

but I bend over backwards to make room for them to advance. He worked with us a few years ago--- then finished college and got a job related to his major-------- after 2 years of THAT he contacted us and asked if we might have work for him---- of course we snapped him up.
4 of us in the company---all of us have been to college, 3 are graduates

we are looking for our 5 th member----and frankly I may put our newest guy in charge of finding that 5th guy.
Stephen


----------



## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

Go recruit at the college.


----------



## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

I went to college for 5 years, have a couple degrees, yet i found doing carpentry more fun than sitting in an office trailer doing paper work.


----------



## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I haven't hired anyone new in over two years. I have worked lined up now til probably June. I would rather stay small(4) than add people who will just not work out. It allows me to be really picky on the jobs that I choose.


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

chris klee said:


> I went to college for 5 years, have a couple degrees, yet i found doing carpentry more fun than sitting in an office trailer doing paper work.


 Chris--- that's interesting.
I am sure all 4 of us working here agree with that.

our new guy Tiernan--- I tell him "make sure you track your hours on this inventory system"
yesterday I remind him and he says---- I have worked on this maybe 20 minutes total at home---- the rest of the time has been spare moments here and there on the jobsite etc. where I am already on the clock.
We are all pretty excited because we would all prefer to be on our feet and outdoors where men belong laughing--- rather than shuffling papers. this system tiernan is putting in place means we can track all our stock from cel phones, in real time with virtually no effort once the system is up and running.

these young, smart, educated guys--- see answers to problems that I would never come up with--- they look at a lot of things much differently--- they see opportunities I don't even know exist

But if I just wanted a grunt to shovel crap into a dump trailer--- I would miss out on all that capability.
Best wishes all ,Stephen


----------



## LI-Remodeler (Feb 3, 2015)

Qualified skilled tradesman are out there but they are all in their 50's and older.

Those are your best age ranges for the best of the best, but they don't come cheap and most will run circles around the young generation before noon.

Don't sell your jobs cheap and factor in expensive labor that gets the job done right and in a timely manner. Otherwise you're just fooling yourself thinking there's a shortage of good labor, there's not. There's a shortage of smart contractors who know business and economics.

Ask yourself this. If you closed your business today what would you be willing to work for and feel fairly compensated?


----------



## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

For whatever reason skilled trades have been dubbed as a last resort vs going to college. My dad runs a construction program at the local high school and his enrollment numbers are slowly diminishing too...kids are being taught you must have a degree to make money and hard work is for others.


----------



## deter (Apr 4, 2013)

MattK said:


> ads on Facebook
> Craigslist
> word of mouth


So this is what you've tried and you expect to find decent employees? Most legit people aren't searching for a job on craigslist and facebook


----------



## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

deter said:


> So this is what you've tried and you expect to find decent employees? Most legit people aren't searching for a job on craigslist and facebook


So, where do you find them?


----------



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

overanalyze said:


> For whatever reason skilled trades have been dubbed as a last resort vs going to college. My dad runs a construction program at the local high school and his enrollment numbers are slowly diminishing too...kids are being taught you must have a degree to make money and hard work is for others.


I graduated less than 10 years ago and it was that way then. The mentality that seeps through in the high school business classes is "Plan your career path. If it doesn't involve college you will probably starve and live in poverty. Trades are what people who weren't smart enough to make it in college do."

I can only imagine that it is worse today.


----------



## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

I don't understand why so many adults are telling new school that a college degree is path to success. College is fine if one knows what they want, and have a certain direction. But, if one is going to class because thats what one does, it's a waste of valuable time, money and energy.


----------



## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

I had an ex girlfriend ask me what I wanted as a career since I'm "24 and should have that figured out by now." Apparently being a carpenter isn't considered a "real" job. 

Even after I explained that my current path will set me up as a superintendent with the experience to start my own company eventually she didn't get it. 

It's sad that's how the trades are perceived. 

But all said and done, I don't miss her.


----------



## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

I call it Bs. I'm extremely tired from project that I finish 9/1. Hence I, mostly, look for employment right now in some company that work at high end or upper bracket projects. You all saw my portfolio. Send like a dose emails and none answer back. At same time at that project over summer investor hired and fired 3 different carpenters that suppose help me and I worked like 60 hours per week. Now I do not complain if they hire and fire me, as happen to 3 above. I just can not believe nobody do not give me chance to show what I know beside my portfolio. It is not that I need employment or I care just negate all logic. Do you remember that other guy who give up at trimming? He talk about non logic too.


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

TxElectrician said:


> So, where do you find them?


careerbuilder.com
simplyhired.com
indeed.com

Pro headhunters

If commercial, see the local ABC/CAM

Join the local HBA (if you haven't already)

Wanna train 'em - rub up on the local school trades program.

WOM used to work - not so much any more.


----------



## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

overanalyze said:


> For whatever reason skilled trades have been dubbed as a last resort vs going to college. My dad runs a construction program at the local high school and his enrollment numbers are slowly diminishing too...kids are being taught you must have a degree to make money and hard work is for others.


No father should say him - "son go do framing for life" and send him somewhere to frame 16/12 roof in mid of MN winter where same guy can go to college to become nerd, and when is there flip a few early 20ties girls.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

The biggest hustle these days is private schools pretend to have an exclusive admission policy where only 100 students for every 1000 applicants get accepted. But they secretly accept ANYONE who has the money.

They brag and boast about accepting only the most "exceptional" children in their school and make parents think that their kids are brighter than they really are. 

So after spending thousands of dollars on their kids' primary education, no parent wants their kid to aspire towards a career of digging holes, carrying trash, and standing on the side of the road yelling cat-calls at women. They cringe at the thought of little Snookums wearing a hard hard, smoking a cigar, and yelling a bunch of obscenities.
:laughing:


----------



## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

I think I said it before but the whole "pay your dues." Thing is what turns allot of people away. Doing crap work for an undecided amount of time at minimum wage makes people wonder they're not at Mcdonalds making the exact same amount but with heating and Air conditioning.

You'd be surprised what giving a new person a taste of more interesting jobs can do for them.


----------



## danjann (Oct 23, 2013)

Spencer said:


> I graduated less than 10 years ago and it was that way then. The mentality that seeps through in the high school business classes is "Plan your career path. If it doesn't involve college you will probably starve and live in poverty. Trades are what people who weren't smart enough to make it in college do."
> 
> I can only imagine that it is worse today.


Not sure what you are talking about. I have an employee, who is a finish carpenter, that I pay 52,000 a year. He is well worth what I pay him and makes me money every day. He is highly intelligent and gets the job done correctly every time. I know he could have made it in college with no problem, but he followed his passion and I am grateful for it.


----------



## danjann (Oct 23, 2013)

OK, before you reply. I re-read your post and think I may have mis-interpreted it. Sorry about that.


----------



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

danjann said:


> OK, before you reply. I re-read your post and think I may have mis-interpreted it. Sorry about that.



Yep. You definitely misunderstood. No problem.


----------



## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Well finish carpenter is not exactly blood on. It is not real heavy duty construction. Like comparing generals who sit in leading tank when attacking line and a supply general. Doing trim someone like more then sit in cubicle? I saw it many, many times. I didn’t see no one who replace cubicle on purpose to work at skyscrapers frame, concrete bridges etc.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Now that I'm on the other side of things and speaking to multiple contractors a day, this problem is with everyone in every trade.

We've discussed the reasons a ton here and it should be pretty easy to know why there is no real talent pool to search of.


----------



## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

I heard the really hard part was trying to find someone with a drivers license too!!


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

overanalyze said:


> you must have a degree to make money...


...for the teachers.


----------



## BAREIN (Dec 26, 2007)

It's not only construction. My wife works in management in the large corporate world and they are having a hard time filling positions, labor, maintenance, machine operators. They are now bussing workers in from 1.5 hours a away. Funny thing is there are unemployed and leaches all over .You can get some to the job but they don't last, they're is a large portion of people out there that are just plain stupid, lazy, or addicted to something to work, you can get some to the job, but they're not worth having around.


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Here's what I've found:
Young ones are lazy/indifferent/short attention span/unreliable
Middle ones people don't want to pay them much, like "experienced finish carpenters" $15/hour.
Older ones people don't want to hire due to potential work comp cases.

Urban areas pay more than rural areas, sometimes a great deal more.


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

tedanderson said:


> The biggest hustle these days is private schools pretend to have an exclusive admission policy where only 100 students for every 1000 applicants get accepted. But they secretly accept ANYONE who has the money.
> 
> They brag and boast about accepting only the most "exceptional" children in their school and make parents think that their kids are brighter than they really are.
> 
> ...


 Ted--- there is an amusing number of true facts in that post for the most part----- but in the whole I think you are mistaken

for the last 8 years , every employee I have had has been a private school kid. K-12---and all of them have/had at least some college.
Yes, most of the parents would discourage their kids from this industry--- but that's OK---- most people are not suited for this life

My wife taught in a private school for 17 years---and the last 2 years she has been teaching in a public school
something to keep in mind----------------
the private school kid, on average---has been held to a higher academic standard every step of the way--- then the public school kid.
the private school kid----raised by parents who had enough financial success to afford private school
the private school kid---expects to earn---and through his parents demonstration KNOWS that earning comes from achievement
in my experience--- the private school kid---is the kid who refused to let himself be beaten into a cubicle sized hole--- he is the kid who wants something different.
the ones we have hired have excellent critical thinking skills
out of a graduating class of 150 or so---every year there will be 2-3 kids like this-and they are potentially an excellent fit for this industry. the other 147 in the class are destined for a cubicle. I am ok with that ratio.
the 3 I have working with me now---are excellent young men--- at this point they are in their mid-late 20's- customers LOVE them.
all 3 graduated from the same school my wife and I attended in the late 70's.-Even back then the school discouraged us from "hands on " jobs- nothing has changed in that regard in at least 35 years. that's fine with me.

Best wishes ,
stephen


----------



## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Stephen:

I know we live in the same area and was wondering about the ad that you ran earlier this year. It was very detailed, and you were confident that your prospects of finding the right guy would come from that. From your previous post, it sounds like you found your guy elsewhere. How many "good" responses did your ad generate? I ask, because I have not had much recent success in hiring. I have all but given up and decided to stay small (4). I would need 2 or 3 good people to expand, but in my recent quest, I struggled to find even 1.


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

BAREIN said:


> large corporate world and they are having a hard time filling positions, labor, maintenance, machine operators.


Lemme guess:
labor: $9-10/hour, drug test, references, work history, clean record and have to be young.
maintenance: janitor or machine maintenance?
machine operators: $9-11/hour, drug test, references, clean record, but comes with a high probability of repetitive motion injury, also prefer to be young, but not as necessary as repetitive injuries take longer to manifest themselves in younger workers, so they'll probably have moved on by the time they appear.

Our friend has a 20 something kid and he cannot find work because he has a misdemeanor conviction on his record from his teens. 
I'm always amazed how for sh*t jobs with low pay, they want 'clean' people....and they improve their odds of that by just getting young ones they can burn through.


----------



## GoodStuff (Nov 10, 2014)

There are good people out there... but it takes a constant effort to continually cull through the ones who don't want to work until you find them. I always have a "gopher" on the jobsite - I don't pay them much. I tell them they are there to prove their worth and make our jobs more efficient. It allows them to observe what we do, help out where they can, and learn by being involved. At the same time it makes our jobs more efficient by staying on task and not having to drop everything to go find that next piece of lumber or tool. My crew all started in that position, so they share their "story" with the new guys and give them hope.

Where I find I run into trouble is when I don't have a "gopher"... when I need someone, I can never find the right one... better to have a good worker that I can move into a better position and train what I want. I lose a guys here and there because the "grass is greener", but when I do, I always have a gopher to fill their slot - the system is not perfect, but it keeps me sane and I still have my hair.


----------



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Youngin' said:


> I had an ex girlfriend ask me what I wanted as a career since I'm "24 and should have that figured out by now." Apparently being a carpenter isn't considered a "real" job.
> 
> Even after I explained that my current path will set me up as a superintendent with the experience to start my own company eventually she didn't get it.
> 
> ...


Guys, we have our thread winner here. You can offer $1,000.00 an hour. You can build trade schools. But until the status of the trades in society changes, you are never going to get a long-term solution. 

When you want your daughter to marry the guy you've just hired, we'll have seen the last of these types of threads. Until then, your wages and schools are BandAides on a severed arm.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> Guys, we have our thread winner here. You can offer $1,000.00 an hour. You can build trade schools. But until the status of the trades in society changes, you are never going to get a long-term solution.
> 
> When you want your daughter to marry the guy you've just hired, we'll have seen the last of these types of threads. Until then, your wages and schools are BandAides on a severed arm.


Depends on where you live. Tradesman are on city council, county commitees, deacons in church, leaders in the community here just like in any other profession. Big difference between a construction worker who is a wash out drinking paint thinner on the weekend and a tradesman. Big difference. 

Id have no problem with my daughter marrying a carpenter. Its done well for my family for a long time, it takes pretty good care of her right now. Especially if it is an ambitious guy with some talent i could see taking the reins. Why would i not be proud of a SIL who can create a home from where only dirt existed before, or tear a house apart and put it back together? Or be an electrician, plumber, mason, whatever? 

Sad so many people are so worried about what a few shallow, unoriginal sheep think about them and their profession. 

Youngin is better off without that gal.


----------



## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

Jaws said:


> Youngin is better off without that gal.


You got that right!


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Warren said:


> Stephen:
> 
> I know we live in the same area and was wondering about the ad that you ran earlier this year. It was very detailed, and you were confident that your prospects of finding the right guy would come from that. From your previous post, it sounds like you found your guy elsewhere. How many "good" responses did your ad generate? I ask, because I have not had much recent success in hiring. I have all but given up and decided to stay small (4). I would need 2 or 3 good people to expand, but in my recent quest, I struggled to find even 1.


 Warren , We ran that ad in late Feb./early march , I believe.

It did NOT draw the way similar ads have in the past--- however time of year may have had something to do with it. most of the time it ran we had snow on the ground and once we had contact with Tiernan we stopped running the AD.

Also--- we also reached out to someone running a joint vocational school. It was the school which pulls from Cuyahoga falls, Kent etc. THAT was more disappointing than the ad results.--- It took over a week to get anyone from the school to call us back---at that point they were excited( the school adm.)---- but it turned out they were looking for" internships"---part time work study deals for their current students. the fact that I had a full time mans job available as an apprentice level position---- went no where with them---we didn't get a single applicant.

that's why we are looking now---and would hire the right guy TODAY if possible. we are 2 years away from NEED--- but we really want to start a new guy spring 2016.
My current 3 guys ( and myself actually) are st. V-M grads. I think I am going to contact the alumni departments of St. V and of Hoban. 
those 2 schools send about 99% of their grads on to college- but a certain % of those kids are out of college after a year or 2.
THOSE kids are good potential hires
Stephen


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

GoodStuff said:


> There are good people out there... but it takes a constant effort to continually cull through the ones who don't want to work until you find them. I always have a "gopher" on the jobsite - I don't pay them much. I tell them they are there to prove their worth and make our jobs more efficient. It allows them to observe what we do, help out where they can, and learn by being involved. At the same time it makes our jobs more efficient by staying on task and not having to drop everything to go find that next piece of lumber or tool. My crew all started in that position, so they share their "story" with the new guys and give them hope.
> 
> Where I find I run into trouble is when I don't have a "gopher"... when I need someone, I can never find the right one... better to have a good worker that I can move into a better position and train what I want. I lose a guys here and there because the "grass is greener", but when I do, I always have a gopher to fill their slot - the system is not perfect, but it keeps me sane and I still have my hair.


 We do something similar though we wouldn't call it a gopher job. It keeps one in the pipeline at all times and though we are not earning off of their work directly---THEY are leaning a lot the first year while freeing up more skilled guys to do more skilled work. Excellent example on Friday--- our lead man was home with a sick daughter---we didn't miss a beat---everybody just climbed up the rung one notch for the day and got the job done. It also helps that everyone higher up the ladder is looking for learning opportunities to insert some lower down the ladder ( THIS is a good spot for andrew to work on XYZ, This is a good project for Tiernan to develope 345. etc.)
stephen


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> Guys, we have our thread winner here. You can offer $1,000.00 an hour. You can build trade schools. But until the status of the trades in society changes, you are never going to get a long-term solution.
> 
> When you want your daughter to marry the guy you've just hired, we'll have seen the last of these types of threads. Until then, your wages and schools are BandAides on a severed arm.


 I would disagree with that.
I don't have any daughters
but I have 2 sons and they both work with me.
they are BOTH married to delightful young women---- both families have bought their own homes, one of them is raising my first grandchild--- my oldest son is putting his wife through Grad School( she will be done in December) and my youngest sons' wife has just started taking grad school classes
Our 3rd guy is not married yet--- but terrific girlfriend and he is currently looking at houses to buy. I have known his family for 13-14 years and he is a catch as well
NONE of these three cares in the slightest what other people think of them in general- they kind of thrive on a certain amount of outsider status---- but I HAVE noticed the last year or so shorter haircuts and in their private lives more carhart and less concert tshirts, :laughing:

If I had daughters--- I would think them very lucky to marry guys exactly like these 3
Stephen


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

This is what makes it harder to attract good employees.

My new position starts with 3 weeks paid vacation a year on top of the 11 days that are considered holidays. I get a 401k match up to 4%. My car and fuel is paid for. I have a strong salary (more than the average wage for construction workers) to go along with commissions. My health insurance for a family of four with a 3k yearly deductible is $220 a month and the company I work for gives you $1000 in the beginning of the year to use towards any health expenses. That's every year and gets rolled over. Cell phone paid for, giving an IPad, laptop, etc. I start at 7:30 and get done around 4 and am not stuck in an office building. You get the picture.

The point of all that is that there aren't many construction companies that even offer benefits. For the guys here having trouble finding help, what are the benefits that employees receive? I know I was never able to afford them no matter how many ways I tried.


----------



## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Stephen H said:


> Warren , We ran that ad in late Feb./early march , I believe.
> 
> It did NOT draw the way similar ads have in the past--- however time of year may have had something to do with it. most of the time it ran we had snow on the ground and once we had contact with Tiernan we stopped running the AD.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean about the vocational programs. I came from one of those programs back in 84. I kept some contact with them for a few years. At my previous company, we used a few students on a part time basis. There were a few hurdles with the program then, and likely more now. I may reach out to them again and see if we can make something work.


----------



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

BamBamm5144 said:


> This is what makes it harder to attract good employees.
> 
> My new position starts with 3 weeks paid vacation a year on top of the 11 days that are considered holidays. I get a 401k match up to 4%. My car and fuel is paid for. I have a strong salary (more than the average wage for construction workers) to go along with commissions. My health insurance for a family of four with a 3k yearly deductible is $220 a month and the company I work for gives you $1000 in the beginning of the year to use towards any health expenses. That's every year and gets rolled over. Cell phone paid for, giving an IPad, laptop, etc. I start at 7:30 and get done around 4 and am not stuck in an office building. You get the picture.
> 
> The point of all that is that there aren't many construction companies that even offer benefits. For the guys here having trouble finding help, what are the benefits that employees receive? I know I was never able to afford them no matter how many ways I tried.


This is one of the things I struggle with regarding hiring an employee for my business. 

Can I give them the benefits and lifestyle that the type of employee I want deserves? 

That's a ton of money in benefits you're getting BAM. I wonder how much of an overhead burden that adds up to per year. I bet its close to what you're salary is minus the commissions. That's a lot to factor into the equation in order to get an all star employee.


----------



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

BamBamm5144 said:


> This is what makes it harder to attract good employees.
> 
> My new position starts with 3 weeks paid vacation a year on top of the 11 days that are considered holidays. I get a 401k match up to 4%. My car and fuel is paid for. I have a strong salary (more than the average wage for construction workers) to go along with commissions. My health insurance for a family of four with a 3k yearly deductible is $220 a month and the company I work for gives you $1000 in the beginning of the year to use towards any health expenses. That's every year and gets rolled over. Cell phone paid for, giving an IPad, laptop, etc. I start at 7:30 and get done around 4 and am not stuck in an office building. You get the picture.
> 
> The point of all that is that there aren't many construction companies that even offer benefits. For the guys here having trouble finding help, what are the benefits that employees receive? I know I was never able to afford them no matter how many ways I tried.


I think there is an invaluable lesson here for all of us who have known you on this forum. Here we can see what it takes to draw in an all star employee. It takes a great benefit package, a fair wage, and IMO most importantly...ROOM TO GROW aka commission/profit sharing.

With this type of scenario you can draw in a self motivated guy who would otherwise have all the abilities to run a business and put them to work for you.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Spencer said:


> This is one of the things I struggle with regarding hiring an employee for my business.
> 
> Can I give them the benefits and lifestyle that the type of employee I want deserves?
> 
> That's a ton of money in benefits you're getting BAM. I wonder how much of an overhead burden that adds up to per year. I bet its close to what you're salary is minus the commissions. That's a lot to factor into the equation in order to get an all star employee.


It's very expensive to offer benefits. I know. I looked into it multiple times and could never figure out how to afford it, even this year when I was doing over 150k gross a month.

Those aren't even all the perks. Once or twice a month we get lunch catered and other small things that I'm sure most employers take for granted. I know how hard it is so I'm very grateful I was given this opportunity.


----------



## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

My employer offers benefits. I used to pay into each month and after 4 years working for him he started paying half my benefits which put my expense down around $40 a month.


----------



## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

tedanderson said:


> So after spending thousands of dollars on their kids' primary education, no parent wants their kid to aspire towards a career of digging holes, carrying trash, and standing on the side of the road yelling cat-calls at women. They cringe at the thought of little Snookums wearing a hard hard, smoking a cigar, and yelling a bunch of obscenities.
> :laughing:


sounds about right! did it all last week, love working in town, you know shes hot when the whole crew does a double take

with a dirty hippie who needs a hair cut, a mexican, an ex cop, and myself, the four of us all have college educations wtf? so we all take on our alter egos at work they call me el hefe, then we have bob marley, the cia informant, and roberto martinez who is actually of polish decent 

if people realized how much fun we had all day long they would sign up in a second thick skin needed don't be afraid to get made fun ofor treated like crap, no wonder kids can't handle a construction site today


----------



## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Spencer said:


> Can I give them the benefits and lifestyle that the type of employee I want deserves?
> 
> That's a ton of money in benefits you're getting BAM. I wonder how much of an overhead burden that adds up to per year. I bet its close to what you're salary is minus the commissions. That's a lot to factor into the equation in order to get an all star employee.


Answer is NO. Only design/build firms, and it is by default firms that work at upper/high end projects can pay people so well that they have comfortable living and good life style. Or, like in case of that roofer from WI, companies that dill with insurance. Construction is low profit activity. Therefore I advocate investing and flipping then contracting. Would be more then happy to pay my labor 15-20$/hour, vacation, medical etc but can not do it till be a developer. Of course that people in medical field can have good living if treating a snake bite cost 150K.


----------



## 98crewcab (Oct 7, 2013)

I couldnt read through all 3 pages of replies.....BUT, i do have to say....

Where were all of you claiming to pay $30/hr before i started on my own??? 

A buddy of mine, and myself were working for this guy, making $30/hour setting up mobile homes, attaching utilities, skirting, decks, close ups and paint. I supplied all of my own tools (about the same collection I have now in my 16' trailer) Paid my own fuel in my own truck (and there was a lot of out of town work), I even used my own expendable materials. (he just reimbursed me for siding, framing, trim, etc) 

long story short, he sold us out for his cousin, who said he'd do the same work for $20/hr. 

We struggled for a couple years doing little things (not being licensed, had to go with under the table gigs...) finally ended up with a cabinet job for $15/hr. Was nice not using my tools, being able to ride the motorcycle to work, and clocking out at 2:30 every day......but couldnt believe how hard it was to find work (like before)

what blew my mind, was that we offered the know how, the tools and truck/trailer, paid our own fuel, even paid for materials (would be reimbursed later) and couldnt find anyone to work for. everyone wanted $15/hr guys. Ill be damned if i was going to use up my resources for $15/hr......

So i guess i am really asking, you guys looking for employees......

What are you really looking for and what do you expect to pay these guys??? I mean, if i were to roll up to your site with references, truck and trailer with everything we'd need....what would you offer as an employer?

(started on my own in Jan 2014, and never looked back, so not looking, just curious....)


----------



## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

If this year was any indicator of years to come, (my first year of fulltime business) then I will be getting an employee next spring/summer once I get a few decks lined up. I am hoping to get a young guy out of highschool that can carry some weight/do what he is told. A gopher basically.


----------



## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

98crewcab said:


> I couldnt read through all 3 pages of replies.....BUT, i do have to say....
> 
> Where were all of you claiming to pay $30/hr before i started on my own???
> (started on my own in Jan 2014, and never looked back, so not looking, just curious....)


This is true and I’m example. I just now look for job and can not find nothing. I look exactly for 30$/hur, all tools, references for each of photos in my huge portfolio (180 pics from 30 different projects). Contracting stay only choice.


----------



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Tipitop, in my opinion, you're going to have a very hard time STARTING at $30 an hour, anywhere. This isn't the corporate world where it's very easy to track your past performance, credentials and references. I was never comfortable hiring anyone for more than $20 an hour and then evaluating their skills. I even specified that I would do a sit down performance review after 1 month and negotiate their wage. If they had been an employee and I was able to speak to their employer then I was comfortable offering more up front. I offered one guy $25 to start, he blew me off on the first day of work.


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

tipitop said:


> This is true and I’m example. I just now look for job and can not find nothing. I look exactly for 30$/hur, all tools, references for each of photos in my huge portfolio (180 pics from 30 different projects). Contracting stay only choice.


 Finish Carpenter
***mel* Construction, Inc. - Elk River, MN

We’re looking for a couple of trim carpenters to add to our crew. Should you apply? *If you can cope crown molding so snug that a determined microbe can’t worm its way into the joint, then yes. If you can install cabinets level, plumb, square, parallel, and spaced correctly, then yes, please apply. (trick question - usually 2 out of the 5 of those aren’t possible)* If you buy wood filler in 55-gallon drums, then I’m sure other companies might be a better option for you.

We work for a small group of builders in the luxury home market, so customer service skills are preferred. We believe in compensating people well, so we offer competitive wages, paid holidays/vacation, and a retirement plan. We know that carpenters are people too, and work alongside the crew so we don’t forget that.

Would you enjoy working on interesting and challenging projects? Please apply. Would you like to stop lugging around your tools in your 12 mpg truck? Please apply; drive your 35 mpg car to work from now on – we provide and haul the big tools. Would you like working with self-measuring, laser cutting, crown molding installation drones? We would too. Someday…


The world is your oyster Tippy:
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=finish+carpenter&l=Minneapolis-Saint+Paul,+MN


----------



## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

SmallTownGuy said:


> If you buy wood filler in 55-gallon drums,


:jester: Damn I always knew I made too many trips to Home depot for wood filler. Gotta get me some of that 55 gal drum action :laughing:


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Texas Wax said:


> :jester: Damn I always knew I made too many trips to Home depot for wood filler. Gotta get me some of that 55 gal drum action :laughing:


Yup. I took over a failed condo project on the golf course where the Buick Open used to be held called Warwick Hills. First 2 units were completed. So bad all the trim had to be pulled and replaced. After that, my woodworks guy would bad-mouth something and talk about breaking out the Warwick Gun".



It's a good ad though. Written like it was one of the guys here on CT.


----------



## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

To give you some idea how I represent myself this is email that I send before 15 minutes to some company that (claim) build custom homes million and up worth.
Send 10 like this in 3 weeks and no one call back. Would be happy to add if something wrong build I pay spend lumber from my pocket and you do not pay me nothing, but would be sort of pushy. Only I lower 5$ as recommended above.

"I can do. Look for 25$/hour (or more if you want pay). I do all that exist in carpentry. Frame irregular hips roofs, frame bay windows with 4 hips (not 2 bend hips), all stairs framing. From trim I cope hardwood crown molding and need not putty, I know adjust proper compound cut. Do trim of enclosed stairs with hard wood treads, hand railing with gooseneck etc. All above is in my portfolio if you Google "situm photobucket", reference for each photo, 180 of them."

Tbh I do not give a f will be haired or not as I earn good over summer and would be OK not work until spring next year. Just funny to me who hire people in that companies, are they idiots or what? What more anyone can say then that. 
Again if they hire me for a few day and kick me out, I would understand, but that nobody do not give me a chance with my portfolio I can not believe it. It is total opposite with my contracting customers, even ones that are flipping houses for decades. They believe that I can do everything, do not doubt never.


----------



## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

I have now 1001 reward points. What happen now? Somebody send money?


----------



## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Tough to hire someone in cold at $30 an hour. A lot of folks can do some pretty nice work when they take their time. A good carpenter can do the same nice work, and do it in a timely manner also. I have seen guys who put out the same work, at much different speeds. So a premiere guy would be worth 40, and his slow counterpart may only be worth 20. Impossible to tell them apart until you work with them.


----------



## pizalm (Mar 27, 2009)

tipitop said:


> To give you some idea how I represent myself this is email that I send before 15 minutes to some company that (claim) build custom homes million and up worth.
> Send 10 like this in 3 weeks and no one call back. Would be happy to add if something wrong build I pay spend lumber from my pocket and you do not pay me nothing, but would be sort of pushy. Only I lower 5$ as recommended above.
> 
> "I can do. Look for 25$/hour (or more if you want pay). I do all that exist in carpentry. Frame irregular hips roofs, frame bay windows with 4 hips (not 2 bend hips), all stairs framing. From trim I cope hardwood crown molding and need not putty, I know adjust proper compound cut. Do trim of enclosed stairs with hard wood treads, hand railing with gooseneck etc. All above is in my portfolio if you Google "situm photobucket", reference for each photo, 180 of them."
> ...



I'm pretty sure I've read it before but you need to learn how to talk/write in English. You sound like a Nigerian scammer. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## kixnbux (Feb 12, 2015)

pizalm said:


> I'm pretty sure I've read it before but you need to learn how to talk/write in English. You sound like a Nigerian scammer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I really think that may be the main reason no ones responding to his ads. Might need to have someone else write it


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

tipitop said:


> I have now 1001 reward points. What happen now? Somebody send money?


A Nigerian prince will contact you shortly.


----------



## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

Tipi, why are you looking for hourly instead of subbing? 

You should just go to their office and ask for the super.


----------



## Swell Co (Oct 3, 2013)

Here in San Diego it's the same. I do general maintenance on HOA. I've had everything from people asking me to pick them up to asking for money up front. Go figure. I offer 20.00 an hour with an evaluation after 1 week and most can't cut it. I had I guy tell he had mold certification and provided his certificate which proved to be fraudulent.
Latinos are the most hard working I've encountered. As long as they have ID and a ss number, they are good. Sadly the undocumented workers show more initiative and integrity. 
We live in a society where people now want everything easy. Why bust your ass when you can collect unemployment and get by?
Funny because in LA my contractor friends have Latinos lined up to do work. And most are intelligent with common sense and understanding of the English language. And they show up when they are supposed to.


----------



## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

tipitop said:


> To give you some idea how I represent myself this is email that I send before 15 minutes to some company that (claim) build custom homes million and up worth.
> Send 10 like this in 3 weeks and no one call back. Would be happy to add if something wrong build I pay spend lumber from my pocket and you do not pay me nothing, but would be sort of pushy. Only I lower 5$ as recommended above.
> 
> "I can do. Look for 25$/hour (or more if you want pay). I do all that exist in carpentry. Frame irregular hips roofs, frame bay windows with 4 hips (not 2 bend hips), all stairs framing. From trim I cope hardwood crown molding and need not putty, I know adjust proper compound cut. Do trim of enclosed stairs with hard wood treads, hand railing with gooseneck etc. All above is in my portfolio if you Google "situm photobucket", reference for each photo, 180 of them."
> ...


I think the biggest thing is that you really need someone to proof read your information. Trying to read that post is like getting sawdust in the eye.

If you're not able to write things in a clear manner while you're sitting in your house, why would an employer assume you're able to do what you say while you're on their dime?


----------



## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

tipitop said:


> To give you some idea how I represent myself this is email that I send before 15 minutes to some company that (claim) build custom homes million and up worth.
> Send 10 like this in 3 weeks and no one call back. Would be happy to add if something wrong build I pay spend lumber from my pocket and you do not pay me nothing, but would be sort of pushy. Only I lower 5$ as recommended above.
> 
> "Master carpenter for hire. 20 years experience in all facets of framing, particularly irregular hip roofs, bay window roofs and stair framing. Expert at crown molding, hardwood stairs and wood rails.
> ...



Fify


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I have two other contractor buddies, one more than the other where we all share the help. It's a great system, no one ever sits home and we don't have to stress on whether or not the guys are able to pay their bills. Networking can be the key. Hell I've even borrowed my plumbers help before when I was in a bind.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I have two other contractor buddies, one more than the other where we all share the help. It's a great system, no one ever sits home and we don't have to stress on whether or not the guys are able to pay their bills. Networking can be the key. Hell I've even borrowed my plumbers help before when I was in a bind.


Juat curious, how do you handle that payroll wise, Mike? They work for all three of yall, and show three employers at years end?


----------



## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

Community college programs are a good place to find new guys. Talk with program director or instructors and ask who can follow directions and shows up to class consistently.

Our education system has discarded the idea of spending money on the trades. We also don't deal with energetic young boys well. We expect them to sit at their desk all day reading books and listening to the teachers. When they don't, we pump then full of drugs. Most get pushed into careers that don't fit and the trades are often forgotten. The whole thing is a shame.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Juat curious, how do you handle that payroll wise, Mike? They work for all three of yall, and show three employers at years end?


 I pay my buddy the liabilities. He also gets a a little more. Although, my buddy, who's licensed, I can 1099, works for me with his crew, so I hire him and his crew, most the time. When I borrow the plumbers guy on occasion I just pay my plumber. They have borrowed my guys as well. I also have been known to use temp services and have run them through the temp agency just so it doesn't screw up my books and they are covered if they get hurt. I have to pay them a bigger wage then the temp service offers though. That can get spendy.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Juat curious, how do you handle that payroll wise, Mike? They work for all three of yall, and show three employers at years end?


I do have the regular guys info to run them through the books if I get a long drawn out job.

My demo guy is licensed and runs a business, so it's 1099 as well.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Man back in the early 80's the market was flooded with good carpenters. It was very competitive back then. You had to bust a nut to stay on as well. It's the best way for young guys to learn. Competition has always been a great motivator.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Once again, another full day of hearing how hard it is to find good help from contractors. This will definitely become a larger and larger problem.


----------



## kixnbux (Feb 12, 2015)

About everyone that could went into oilfield related jobs here in Oklahoma. Caused a huge shortage. Construction demand went way up for both new and renovations as all the oil workers needed homes. However all the construction workers had gone to better paying oilfield. Now it's tanking hard but still not affecting those of us that never left construction. The ones that did are finding it difficult to start back in. May just be a local problem but that's the issue here


----------



## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

I was under the impression that a lot of these big jobs with big companies are crews of illegals that travel city to city, job to job. Staying in one spot would be more challenging because you're a captive of that market.


----------



## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

sailfish27 said:


> I think you have it all wrong. Competition is the act of winning. No one competes to try and lose, whether for money, power, love, sex, respect etc.
> 
> The politician who gerrymanders his district does so to win. They are competing at a higher level. They have the wherewithal to use the system to their advantage in order to win the competition.
> 
> ...


You don't get competition. Winning is only part of it. Read some John Wooden. Compete with yourself first, it's about self improvement.


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> Well it is true. It goes back to the caveman. Men were just like any other in the animal Kingdom we fought for our breeding rights. Because we don't do that today we have things like sports. Because you say it isn't doesn't make it so. If men weren't competitive sports wouldn't be much more popular with men than women.



If those sports watching men were actually competetive--- they would be out competing in a sport--- rather than watching OTHER men play the game
most men would rather NOT compete---and instead watch others compete.
stephen


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Yup. I was gong to ask Stephen H something about his guys, or non-competitive people in general: Do they watch sports, buy lotto tickets, compare tools, addresses, clothing, pass in the high speed lane, look for discounts, practice some art form or have a hobby - so many ways we compete at one level or another.
> 
> Just because the incentive to be competitive is removed in one circumstance, doesn't mean its removed from the DNA.


 out of the 4 of us--- 3 of us run---- one has given up rock climbing since the birth of his daughter, 3 of us bike a lot all of us do some sort of self motivated sport---usually alone.-- 3 of us have a a passing interest in baseball and one of us follows basketball but I can't think of the last time someone mentioned watching a game on TV
none of us is dumb enough to buy a lotto ticket,
none of us care about clothes ( possibly to our wives shame)
tools are something to earn money with---we are primarily interested in what work it will save us and how long it will last
2 of the guys are musicians
basically the activities we are interested in---are either self motivating--- or are collaborative in nature
3 of us are big readers---so we are much more likely to be talking about something we read--- than a sports event
mostly we are interested in doing our own thing for our own reasons---and competition would de-rail that---certainly make it more un-pleasant.
Stephen


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Stephen H said:


> out of the 4 of us--- 3 of us run---- one has given up rock climbing since the birth of his daughter, 3 of us bike a lot all of us do some sort of self motivated sport---usually alone.-- 3 of us have a a passing interest in baseball and one of us follows basketball but I can't think of the last time someone mentioned watching a game on TV
> none of us is dumb enough to buy a lotto ticket,
> none of us care about clothes ( possibly to our wives shame)
> tools are something to earn money with---we are primarily interested in what work it will save us and how long it will last
> ...


So beyond the cloning, competition is integral to their lives.


----------



## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Stephen H said:


> out of the 4 of us--- 3 of us run---- one has given up rock climbing since the birth of his daughter, 3 of us bike a lot all of us do some sort of self motivated sport---usually alone.-- 3 of us have a a passing interest in baseball and one of us follows basketball but I can't think of the last time someone mentioned watching a game on TV
> none of us is dumb enough to buy a lotto ticket,
> none of us care about clothes ( possibly to our wives shame)
> tools are something to earn money with---we are primarily interested in what work it will save us and how long it will last
> ...


For a non competitive guy, you sure have a need to be right in every conversation.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

A person who doesnt care about his neighbors car, job, house, money, isnt a douche bag who is spiking it on his buddys wife or kid in a back yard volley ball game can also be the guy who finishes a weekend marathon on a sprained ankle or works harder to get more widgets built at work that anyone else. 

Not everyone is one dimensional in this aspect.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Stephen, in your view, is Tom Brady or Peyton Manning not REALLY a competitive person when they watch a baseball game on TV or go to a tittle fight? 

Or any number of world champion boxers who watch others play sports?


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Stephen H said:


> If those sports watching men were actually competetive--- they would be out competing in a sport--- rather than watching OTHER men play the game
> most men would rather NOT compete---and instead watch others compete.
> stephen


I didn't say "watching" sports, now did I?


----------



## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

So I tried to work like employee for a while. Just to do some technical job at high end project and not have all responsibility for everything. Asked for 25-30$/hour and didn't find nothing in one month. At other hand lined a few contracting jobs for 35$/hour. So there is answer. In time of internet (Craig list, angie list) it is easy to be a contractor. Contractor pay is by default better then employee because one hand is less between me and customer. It is not my choice, market push me in that direction.


----------



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

I'd make more as a $25 dollar per hour employee than as a $35 dollar per hour contractor.


----------



## BCampbell (Jul 22, 2015)

I ran into a project that I needed a few project managers. I hired 3 women and it went great no problems with inspectors the trades cleaned up after themselves and there was no whining or complaining like I had to put up with from the boys. I would hire them again in a second. A lot of my people that have worked for me have been people that have hired me to work for their company in the past as they lost their jobs or been downsized I put them to work and it has been a good thing all around. Some stay with us and some move on but they call us when there is a need.
My daughter even worked for me a few years put the guys go shame when it came go dhoeing up on time and working without complaining. Now she is a manager for a mechanics shop and wants to know why the guys there act more like whiney girls yhan girls do.


----------



## handymanhenry (Sep 30, 2015)

*job boards*

I have heard that thinkin blue will have job boards for a variety of contractor industries, but they haven't launched yet.


----------



## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

I think the well went dry a long time ago, like 1970.

As a society, we look down on blue collar work, and have told our bright young kids to go to college and "make something of themselves" for 40 years. Now all we get in the trades is mostly dopeheads that can't pass a drug test anywhere.

We have been so busy filling the corner office we forgot to teach someone to build it.

The upside , there are fewer "A" guys to start companies and compete with. 

The Calvary is not coming . At the same time , no ones remodel is ever going to be made in China, and as long as any of you want to, you will have a contracting business . Good help will be hard to find ....really, it probably always has been.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Boo hickey, people don't look down on "blue collar" (not many uniforms are blue with collars anymore) it's some sort of novelty notion that "blue collar" worker's like to say. 

Those darn dope heads.


----------



## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Well, most people want little Osgood to grow up and be a Dr., lawyer or engineer, not a plumber , electrician , Mason or mechanic . Blue collar is a term, but my call on that is pretty much dead on .


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Sure, everyone thinks their kid will be some sort of over achiever and has big dreams. 

That's not looking down on blue collar whatevers.


----------



## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Boo hickey, people don't look down on "blue collar" (not many uniforms are blue with collars anymore) it's some sort of novelty notion that "blue collar" worker's like to say.
> 
> Those darn dope heads.


Our uniforms are blue collared lettered shirts. Up to now, never made the connection.


----------



## LI-Remodeler (Feb 3, 2015)

Forget it guys, the average contractor can't find good help because he doesn't has the clientele to pay for that good help. 

You're never going to hire good people unless you can afford good people. 

We didn't lose the good old American work force because of illegals, we lost the work force because of moron contractors underbidding each other believing that getting the job was more important than making money on that job. Now those same morons are just keeping "busy" to keep their guys "busy" and making tidbits along the way trying to put together a decent weekly salary for themselves running multiple run of the mill jobs.

I can go into any area of this country and find quality tradesman for most any field. But get them to work for you and that's a different story because money talks and illegal labor rates walk. 

You're not getting the good old American tradesman anymore. He's gone, and all that's left are you guys who are the tail end of the baby boomers. 

Either find your niche with the high end money clients, knock them over the head and give them the best workmanship and service with top quality workers or do the run of the mill jobs with your bums, druggies, and born agains.


----------



## BCampbell (Jul 22, 2015)

LI-Remodeler said:


> Forget it guys, the average contractor can't find good help because he doesn't has the clientele to pay for that good help.
> 
> You're never going to hire good people unless you can afford good people.
> 
> ...


There is more truth to this statement than you realize. If you cant make good wages at a job stay home.
The other problem with this business is construction management companies that expect the guys to work 7 days a week 10 to 12 hrs per day. To do a job and if your lucky 8 to 10 % profit margin if you can get your money before they disolve the llc.
The second problem we run into is these clients who expect a 6 week job done in 30 days. Just because hgtv can rebuild a house in 30 minutes doesnt make it possible.
There is a process 9 women cant have a baby in a month.


----------



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

I just had a countertop fabricator friend of mine hire me to template a top on an out-of-town job. This should be done by a $15.00-an-hour guy, but he's paying me, drive time included, about 6 times that. Why? 

He can't get/retain anyone and he's sick of fighting it. I don't think he cares how much the template costs him, he'll bill the client, and if she doesn't like it, fine, he's got lots of other work. Plus he can sleep at night, knowing those high end tops will fit perfectly.


----------



## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Another reason some contractors can t find good help is they don't know how to recruit , train and retain good help. You have to be willing to give up some of your money , in order to pay them better and make sure they have the tools and equipment they need. In turn , they can learn your methods, create sales and profits, and ultimately you will grow and prosper . As long as a contractor has the less for you means more for me mentality, he's not going anywhere .


----------



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

AGullion said:


> As long as a contractor has the less for you means more for me mentality, he's not going anywhere .


Many years ago, another sub and I were talking about a GC we both subbed for. The other sub said "Poor Phil. He's always worried that someone else may earn a dollar."

It was true and I never forgot it.


----------



## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Guys like that , sooner or later, have no friends in the business .


----------



## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

Want one reason why quality members of the workforce are staying away from construction? Try doing a mock job search.

_want reliable guys 2 work. join busy crew. must have own car, min one year experience. call Bart 2 start 2morrow _

Somebody try telling me this isn't 90% of the job advertisements out there in the industry... What the  do you expect??? 

When some quality, young potential employee looks through job ads and sees five positions all written up just like this and _all only from the construction industry_, he's going to run as fast as he can away from the business and never look back. And I wouldn't blame him at all.

We all complain that our incoming workforce is comprised almost entirely of cavemen, yet we write ads as if we ourselves are the Missing Link.


----------



## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

Man...my resume is written better than many of those ads...


----------



## MetalStretcher (Apr 9, 2015)

Start poaching. In this economy anyone whos worth a **** is employed and overworked/naming their price. The only way guys around here are getting drop in the mix employees are by poaching from other companies. I'd be weary in this economy of any "skilled" man that didn't have a 40+hr a week job already. If they are unemployed AND skilled, they have HUGE red flags.

Find out what your competitors employment packages include and up it.


----------



## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

MetalStretcher said:


> Start poaching. In this economy anyone whos worth a **** is employed and overworked/naming their price. The only way guys around here are getting drop in the mix employees are by poaching from other companies. I'd be weary in this economy of any "skilled" man that didn't have a 40+hr a week job already. If they are unemployed AND skilled, they have HUGE red flags.
> 
> Find out what your competitors employment packages include and up it.


I haven't had to apply for a job in 5 years. I've networked with enough other people that if I'm even thinking about going elsewhere it makes it through the grapevine and I get offers.

Not that I like skipping from company to company. I dislike starting over. If I ever leave this job it will be to start my own gig.


----------



## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

In my opinion , this same problem , means we all have great job security . and no ones remodel job will ever be made in china .


----------



## MetalStretcher (Apr 9, 2015)

Youngin' said:


> MetalStretcher said:
> 
> 
> > Start poaching. In this economy anyone whos worth a **** is employed and overworked/naming their price. The only way guys around here are getting drop in the mix employees are by poaching from other companies. I'd be weary in this economy of any "skilled" man that didn't have a 40+hr a week job already. If they are unemployed AND skilled, they have HUGE red flags.
> ...


Don't EVERY feel bad about doing what's best for you and yours. Whether you work for someone else or yourself, you are your brand. Your life is a business. You should be maximizing your earnings anyway you can. I don't care how well a company takes care of you. When the **** hits do you think your boss is going to feed your family over his? No. And you shouldn't do it either. Get that money brother.


----------



## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

MetalStretcher said:


> Don't EVERY feel bad about doing what's best for you and yours. Whether you work for someone else or yourself, you are your brand. Your life is a business. You should be maximizing your earnings anyway you can. I don't care how well a company takes care of you. When the **** hits do you think your boss is going to feed your family over his? No. And you shouldn't do it either. Get that money brother.


I have no disillusions about how it goes. My boss needs to take care of his business, his family and his bottom line. I need to do the same for myself and have exercised that before when a job wasn't lining up with what I needed. 

I like my job. It has pay, diverse experience, benefits, and a path that will set me up as superintendent with a small but growing company. But who knows what the future brings. It may get to a point where the job no longer lines up with my priorities or goals and by then I'll have the experience to strike out on my own. 

Either way, I'm not worried, I will make it work to my benefit.


----------



## digiconsoo (Apr 23, 2012)

Youngin' said:


> I have no disillusions about how it goes. My boss needs to take care of his business, his family and his bottom line. I need to do the same for myself and have exercised that before when a job wasn't lining up with what I needed.
> 
> I like my job. It has pay, diverse experience, benefits, and a path that will set me up as superintendent with a small but growing company. But who knows what the future brings. It may get to a point where the job no longer lines up with my priorities or goals and by then I'll have the experience to strike out on my own.
> 
> Either way, I'm not worried, I will make it work to my benefit.



Great attitude!!:thumbup:

Especially the "I will make it work" part. 
There is greatness in individual freedom and responsibility.


----------



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Youngin' said:


> I have no disillusions about how it goes. My boss needs to take care of his business, his family and his bottom line. I need to do the same for myself and have exercised that before when a job wasn't lining up with what I needed.
> 
> I like my job. It has pay, diverse experience, benefits, and a path that will set me up as superintendent with a small but growing company. But who knows what the future brings. It may get to a point where the job no longer lines up with my priorities or goals and by then I'll have the experience to strike out on my own.
> 
> Either way, I'm not worried, I will make it work to my benefit.



Good plan. Always keep multiple options open. Never let ANYONE get you by the balls.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I don't normally allow ultimatums. If a guy came to me and said something like, I really like working for you but I just can't afford too. Or something like that I might have an honest look at it. But if a guy came to me and said, Lusardi Construction is paying 25 if you don't give me 25 I'm going to work for them. I'd say I wish you well.


----------



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> I don't normally allow ultimatums. If a guy came to me and said something like, I really like working for you but I just can't afford too. Or something like that I might have an honest look at it. But if a guy came to me and said, Lusardi Construction is paying 25 if you don't give me 25 I'm going to work for them. I'd say I wish you well.


Mike:

That's the marketplace, not the employee, speaking. Too bad your pride keeps you from making the best business decision.

I'd say if he didn't take the other job you'd have to fire him for being an idiot. His math skills suck. 25 is larger than 24 the last time I checked. His obligation to himself and his family exceed those to you.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Has absolutly nothing to do with pride. I can't allow someone any kind of control over me or my company. It's certainly a business decision.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> Mike:
> 
> That's the marketplace, not the employee, speaking. Too bad your pride keeps you from making the best business decision.
> 
> I'd say if he didn't take the other job you'd have to fire him for being an idiot. His math skills suck. 25 is larger than 24 the last time I checked. His obligation to himself and his family exceed those to you.


Are you forgetting I'm part of the marketplace?

If the market demanded I pay 25 I'd send him packing and hire another 25 guy. I will never allow someone to think they can hold my feet to the fire and I will cave. It's not the money it's the attitude I'm not going to continue to deal with. Has nothing, zero to do with pride. 

My company is not a democracy, I make all the decisions it's not "we" make the decisions. I get all the liabilities, as well, so that's why I get to be a dictator. I dictate everything aspect of the job. It's called being the owner of the company. It's pretty much how all company's work.


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

How Soon Until The Employee Well Is Run Completely Dry?? 

Better question is.....

WHEN WILL ALL THESE BS CONTRACTORS GO BROKE?..:thumbsup:


----------



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Boo hickey, people don't look down on "blue collar" (not many uniforms are blue with collars anymore) it's some sort of novelty notion that "blue collar" worker's like to say.
> .


That's not been true, in my experience, Darcy. I'm a well spoken guy and I couldn't count the number of times where people have told me that the were surprised I was a carpenter or that I was so smart I could do "more". That's not an angsty 20 something complaining but crap that people have actually said to me in my mid thirties.

It's not an overt prejudice but it's still very commonplace.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

griz said:


> How Soon Until The Employee Well Is Run Completely Dry??
> 
> Better question is.....
> 
> WHEN WILL ALL THESE BS CONTRACTORS GO BROKE?..:thumbsup:


Some other retard will just take their place


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> I don't normally allow ultimatums. If a guy came to me and said something like, I really like working for you but I just can't afford too. Or something like that I might have an honest look at it. But if a guy came to me and said, Lusardi Construction is paying 25 if you don't give me 25 I'm going to work for them. I'd say I wish you well.


 I would do the same as you would--- in fact I have done it.

the guy who says " pay me $25 or I am going to Lusardi"--- is really saying " and as soon as I can find someone paying $26 I am going THERE "
not everybody makes their decisions based on " what's the most I can make /hour"
plenty of people are happy to earn a bit less / hour for a variety of reasons--- better hours ?, better working conditions, ? a chance to work with cool materials ? , more interesting projects ? , better co-workers ? ,a better boss ? , a more flexible work schedule ? room for advancement ? more responsibility ?--- LESS responsibility ?
plenty of reasons.

As far as giving up controll ?--- I think I am probably interested in a more collaborative situation than you are. speaking for my little organization--- I think we are better off if I am less dictatorial and more collaborative.

in our last 2 months
1) our newest employee has set up an inventory system which in real time will allow 3 separate crews to track up to the minute exactly what slate/tile/ misc. pieces we have back at the shop from our cel phones----and got the system up and running---- on his own initiative. this is HUGELY valuable to us.
2) another employee ( my oldest son)--- has approached me with an idea for a new service/product we can offer . It's related to what we currently do- but something we have never really explored before. It's a sizable growth opportunity for us
3) 3rd employee ( youngest son)--- just yesterday in fact stopped me from making an expensive mistake RE: renting larger shop space. all 4 of us looked at the space together---and while 3 of us were discussing how great the space would be and what we could do with it---- AJ zeroed in on exactly WHY the space ultimately would ber a nightmare for us and end up largely unworkable on a dailey basis ( it had to do with door positions)

all 3 of these guys made really valuable contributions which they would NOT have---- if this place was a dictatorship

but that's the beauty of us running our own little businesses--- you can do things YOUR way--- and I can do things MY way and every body happy .
stephen


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I agree that being more of a collaborator has many advantages. However that is my choice because I'm in control. The dictator part is not done disrespectfully. It can be done in a nice way. Some guys do much better as followers. Allowing them the freedom to think things out for themselves is equally important. The trick is finding the right balance.


----------



## KHContractor (Sep 18, 2017)

This is the same problem we are having. We have tried everything from Facebook, Craigslist, Indeed, job fliers, word of mouth through other contractors! Most do not even show up for the first day. We even offer the pay they ask for and they show up high or they cant do anything they said they could. It is very frustrating. Everyone wonders why we end up using undocumented workers.


----------



## ComRemodel (Jul 5, 2016)

Stephen H said:


> Also--- we also reached out to someone running a joint vocational school. It was the school which pulls from Cuyahoga falls, Kent etc. THAT was more disappointing than the ad results.--- It took over a week to get anyone from the school to call us back---at that point they were excited( the school adm.)---- but it turned out they were looking for" internships"---part time work study deals for their current students. the fact that I had a full time mans job available as an apprentice level position---- went no where with them---we didn't get a single applicant.


That's because that school knows they would be run out of town on a rail. Parents would have a fit if they were steering kids to the trades instead of a college education. 

The big problem as I see it is that we now are two generations past the Baby Boomer parents. During that time our grade school educational system went to crap. They are doing nothing to prepare kids for life, only "extended daycare" in a college of their choice. So now we have two generations of cubical dwellers that have no idea what it's like to get their hands dirty. Is it any wonder that their Snowflakes have been "rewired" to believe that manual labor is for the lower class?

-Hal


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Do you guys realize this is a 2 yr. old thread.


----------



## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

fjn said:


> Do you guys realize this is a 2 yr. old thread.


Now they do


----------



## fireguy (Oct 29, 2006)

fjn said:


> Do you guys realize this is a 2 yr. old thread.


In 2 years, has anything changed? I see that the job seekers are fewer and even lazier and less motivated.


----------



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

fireguy said:


> In 2 years, has anything changed? I see that the job seekers are fewer and even lazier and less motivated.


Yeah, and you're offering middle class jobs with benefits, or is this more $9.00-an-hour whining about laziness?


----------



## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> Yeah, and you're offering middle class jobs with benefits, or is this more $9.00-an-hour whining about laziness?


I highly doubt any regular on this forum is paying $9.00 an hour, would suspect most are averaging at least twice that.


----------



## MOC (Mar 14, 2017)

My lowest paid laborer/ assistant was receiving $17 an hour. I gladly would have paid him $25 an hour if he would have put more effort into learning the trade, barely could read a tape measure when hired. I tried to hire a lead carpenter for 3 years willing to pay $30-40 an hour but my area is also in a drug epidemic. Couldn't really find any clean decent guys that weren't already working for themselves. I will not blame the immigrants for doing what's best for them and there families, we all would do the same. I blame the last 50 years of public education that has successfully bred a bunch of parents of snowflakes! Nearly everyone has pressed their children into thinking they wouldn't be worth a s%&t unless they go to college. It's pretty much broke the work ethic of everyone now. And if they don't go to college they think f^$k it I can do better by laying around doping it up and drawing welfare. Pump out a bunch more kids for a govt paycheck. It's a vicious cycle! I do see a hint of can do here and there but it's far and few between. That's the main reason I hung up the business for now. Very few decent subs as well. Most of them are nearly part time with their wives bringing home the bacon. Sad sad sad! Don't get me started on the feminazi movement!


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Anyone who has true carpentry experience and apprenticed under real carpenters Will continue to be able to charge more and more money if they learn how to sell themselves to the people who will pay for craftsmanship. You can make a fortune if you have that and know how to train and run a crew and a business. And even if you are not the type who wants to go out and make a fortune you can certainly make a very good living

Any qualified tradesman can make a great living. Guys like Kowboy who are naysayers will always use the lowest tier guys in the lowest tier positions as examples because it is easier to make their point.... Or perhaps they just are not successful themselves within the trades and are bitter about it. 

Of the truly qualified Tradesmen that I know that are in my age group we are all making a good living. No job starts off making top-end dollars. Another thing that I will say against the naysayers is that while that kid is making $15 an hour with no benefits starting out in a ditch he is also not having to spend $100,000 on a bachelor's degree that will make him possibly the same amount of money than a journeyman Tradesman will make. The difference is the journeyman Tradesman will have been paid for all of his experience and education and will not be out of pocket for his education.


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Jaws said:


> Anyone who has true carpentry experience and apprenticed under real carpenters Will continue to be able to charge more and more money if they learn how to sell themselves to the people who will pay for craftsmanship. You can make a fortune if you have that and know how to train and run a crew and a business. And even if you are not the type who wants to go out and make a fortune you can certainly make a very good living
> 
> Any qualified tradesman can make a great living. Guys like Kowboy who are naysayers will always use the lowest tier guys in the lowest tier positions as examples because it is easier to make their point.... Or perhaps they just are not successful themselves within the trades and are bitter about it.
> 
> Of the truly qualified Tradesmen that I know that are in my age group we are all making a good living. No job starts off making top-end dollars. Another thing that I will say against the naysayers is that while that kid is making $15 an hour with no benefits starting out in a ditch he is also not having to spend $100,000 on a bachelor's degree that will make him possibly the same amount of money than a journeyman Tradesman will make. The difference is the journeyman Tradesman will have been paid for all of his experience and education and will not be out of pocket for his education.


A- the ****-men.


----------



## ComRemodel (Jul 5, 2016)

> Of the truly qualified Tradesmen that I know that are in my age group we are all making a good living. No job starts off making top-end dollars. Another thing that I will say against the naysayers is that while that kid is making $15 an hour with no benefits starting out in a ditch he is also not having to spend $100,000 on a bachelor's degree that will make him possibly the same amount of money than a journeyman Tradesman will make. The difference is the journeyman Tradesman will have been paid for all of his experience and education and will not be out of pocket for his education.


THAT'S what we all have been saying but we are swimming against the tide. Schools and current culture make parents and kids believe that they will be nobody without a good college education which turns out to be nothing but party time for most. Add to that, many of these kids don't want to get their hands dirty for any amount of money. That's because mommy and daddy will give them anything they want. 

Look up Millennials. 

This current generation is the most maligned and useless generation yet. To be sure, there are plenty of that group that have their act together, but for they most part they are not likely to want to work in the trades. Yeah, many are good with tech stuff because their parent threw an iPhone in their crib to keep them occupied. But by and large they value their social life, leisure and "congenial" working conditions over salary. 

I keep reading pro Millennial articles in trade magazines about how they are the future and how businesses must adapt to accommodate them. Yeah, right. I'm not about to let employees come and go as they please, not show up for work because they have a concert to attend or bull **** and text with their friends all day. 

This is what we are up against and why immigrants look better and better. 

-Hal


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm not sure I would've pushed college for my kids if they had to get student loans. Not having college loans after they graduate is a huge advantage in the job market. 


Mike.
_______________


----------



## kixnbux (Feb 12, 2015)

Californiadecks said:


> I'm not sure I would've pushed college for my kids if they had to get student loans. Not having college loans after they graduate is a huge advantage in the job market.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________




Agreed! I hope mine go into a trade. Unfortunately half the dang family thinks a degree is all that matters. The humorous part of that is I'm certain I make more than any of them with only trade school behind me and no debt


----------



## tman78 (Aug 13, 2016)

fjn said:


> Do you guys realize this is a 2 yr. old thread.


Doesn't matter. Point is, workers with skills, tools, and good character are in short supply. Pay them as much as you can, and hold onto every good one you can.


----------



## ComRemodel (Jul 5, 2016)

Californiadecks said:


> I'm not sure I would've pushed college for my kids if they had to get student loans. Not having college loans after they graduate is a huge advantage in the job market.


I hope you weren't like some parents around here who mortgaged their property just to send their kid to college to get a degree in coconut milking. 

-Hal


----------



## B.Johnson (Sep 17, 2016)

The irony of it all is that the few who do decide to go into the trades have the potential to make really good money. I wish I was 20 again with the knowledge that I have today.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ComRemodel said:


> I hope you weren't like some parents around here who mortgaged their property just to send their kid to college to get a degree in coconut milking.
> 
> 
> 
> -Hal




Paid cash to send them out of state. Daughter left college with a degree in International relations and a minor in Spanish. right into a job and lives in New York City. Son will soon be graduating with a criminal justice degree at Boise state. He's already on his third interview for the police department. They are well on there way to a very fulfilled and successful life. We opened a college account when they were young. Total cost was around 200k and that is with scholarships. 


Mike.
_______________


----------



## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> Paid cash to send them out of state. Daughter left college with a degree in International relations and a minor in Spanish. right into a job and lives in New York City. Son will soon be graduating with a criminal justice degree at Boise state. He's already on his third interview for the police department. They are well on there way to a very fulfilled and successful life. We opened a college account when they were young. Total cost was around 200k and that we with scholarships.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________


Curious, did your son have no desire to work in the trades, or did you steer him away? Neither of my sons had wanted anything to do with construction.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TxElectrician said:


> Curious, did your son have no desire to work in the trades, or did you steer him away? Neither of my sons had wanted anything to do with construction.



Both. He had no desire for the trades. He had wanted to be a cop for as long as I remember. Well as a youngster he wanted to play pro ball, but didn't we all! 

He's been on the deans list his entire college years. He's a great kid. 


Mike.
_______________


----------



## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

My kids were in the teens before I told them what I did for a living. :laughing: They were like,,,,ewe!!!:blink:


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

fireguy said:


> In 2 years, has anything changed? I see that the job seekers are fewer and even lazier and less motivated.




I learned many ,many moons ago,if you pay peanuts all you will attract is monkeys.

I have never had a problem getting qualified help. I have to ask all the naysayer,there are construction firms with literally many hundred and thousands of workers. Do you mean to say they are all stumble bums ? Nothing would ever get built if that was the case. Silly talk,that's all. Reminds me of the fox story. The fox could not get the grapes,hence he said they are all sour.


----------



## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

fjn said:


> I learned many ,many moons ago,if you pay peanuts all you will attract is monkeys.
> 
> I have never had a problem getting qualified help. I have to ask all the naysayer,there are construction firms with literally many hundred and thousands of workers. Do you mean to say they are all stumble bums ? Nothing would ever get built if that was the case. Silly talk,that's all. Reminds me of the fox story. The fox could not get the grapes,hence he said they are all sour.


Mixing mortar ...pushing a wheel barrow ..setting up scaffold !! Hell ! even I could do that !! 

Whatcha payin? I'll be there in the morning ! and after a fer years I could graduate to striking!!


----------



## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

I was helping my girlfriend look for a new job as we just moved and thought for ****s and giggles I would look to see what people were paying in my trade.

I was amazed the amount of people that were offering 16$ an hour and requiring you to have your own vehicle own tools supply your own consumables.

Why would anyone want to work for that price when they can flip burgers for 13-14$ an hour

Sent from my XP7700 using Tapatalk


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

blacktop said:


> Mixing mortar ...pushing a wheel barrow ..setting up scaffold !! Hell ! even I could do that !!
> 
> Whatcha payin? I'll be there in the morning ! and after a fer years I could graduate to striking!!





Laborers $ 27.66 hr. + bennies.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

SectorSecurity said:


> I was helping my girlfriend look for a new job as we just moved and thought for ****s and giggles I would look to see what people were paying in my trade.
> 
> I was amazed the amount of people that were offering 16$ an hour and requiring you to have your own vehicle own tools supply your own consumables.
> 
> ...


You learn how to flip burgers flipping burgers. I'd take less to learn a trade

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

fjn said:


> Laborers $ 27.66 hr. + bennies.


Hired !! :thumbsup: so long as I don't have to go inside the house and see a piece of sheetrock! you can put the sand pile and mixer at the bottom of the hill ...I'll push that wheelbarrow up to ya!!


----------



## B.Johnson (Sep 17, 2016)

blacktop said:


> My kids were in the teens before I told them what I did for a living. :laughing: They were like,,,,ewe!!!:blink:


What did they think that the white powder was from?


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Hired !! :thumbsup:




:laughing::laughing:


----------



## ComRemodel (Jul 5, 2016)

TxElectrician said:


> Curious, did your son have no desire to work in the trades, or did you steer him away? Neither of my sons had wanted anything to do with construction.


Interesting. Back when, sons usually wanted to follow in their father's footsteps. The IBEW was father/son as I'm sure other trades were. Businesses were passed on from generation to generation. That your sons and Californiadecks son wanted nothing to do with construction speaks volumes about the brainwashing going on in our educational system. Geeze, if you can't even get your own son to work in your business what does that say? 

-Hal


----------



## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

B.Johnson said:


> What did they think that the white powder was from?


I told them i was a pigeon farmer .


----------



## MOC (Mar 14, 2017)

fjn said:


> fireguy said:
> 
> 
> > In 2 years, has anything changed? I see that the job seekers are fewer and even lazier and less motivated.
> ...


They're not "all" bums, but for me, and my standards for my business it was tough. No doubt there are some great young guys out there. But until you reach that point of having at least one great hard ass lead that does what I expect and expects the same out of his crew. For me I couldn't make it happen, and I understand part of that is me being too chicken to take chances, and give chances. Now once a company gets to that point, I can see how you would have time to find more qualified help and grow exponentially.

In my area even the most "high end" builders are loaded with dope addicts and illegals. They get things done obviously but I wouldn't let the f#$s change my oil.


----------



## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

Jaws said:


> You learn how to flip burgers flipping burgers. I'd take less to learn a trade
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


As would I but these guys are looking for experienced installers they can send out to do service work.

Likely billing them back out at between 60-100$ an hour

Sent from my XP7700 using Tapatalk


----------



## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

ComRemodel said:


> Interesting. Back when, sons usually wanted to follow in their father's footsteps. The IBEW was father/son as I'm sure other trades were. Businesses were passed on from generation to generation. That your sons and Californiadecks son wanted nothing to do with construction speaks volumes about the brainwashing going on in our educational system. Geeze, if you can't even get your own son to work in your business what does that say?
> 
> -Hal


It says to me that each had a desire to be a better man than me. One entered the Marines and the other the US Army. So much for your brainwashing theory.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ComRemodel said:


> Interesting. Back when, sons usually wanted to follow in their father's footsteps. The IBEW was father/son as I'm sure other trades were. Businesses were passed on from generation to generation. That your sons and Californiadecks son wanted nothing to do with construction speaks volumes about the brainwashing going on in our educational system. Geeze, if you can't even get your own son to work in your business what does that say?
> 
> -Hal


It doesn't mean **** other than they didn't want to go into construction. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

TxElectrician said:


> It says to me that each had a desire to be a better man than me. One entered the Marines and the other the US Army. So much for your brainwashing theory.


 My boy wants to be a music teacher . I'm all for it !!


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ComRemodel said:


> Interesting. Back when, sons usually wanted to follow in their father's footsteps. The IBEW was father/son as I'm sure other trades were. Businesses were passed on from generation to generation. That your sons and Californiadecks son wanted nothing to do with construction speaks volumes about the brainwashing going on in our educational system. Geeze, if you can't even get your own son to work in your business what does that say?
> 
> 
> 
> -Hal




So my son has to be in Constructon otherwise I failed as a parent. What are you stretch ****ing Armstrong? 

Why would I try to get my son to do anything? It's his life not mine. 


Mike.
_______________


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Good thing I don't pick cotton for a living!


Mike.
_______________


----------



## ComRemodel (Jul 5, 2016)

Jaws said:


> It doesn't mean **** other than they didn't want to go into construction.


Well, yeah it does. 

For the last 10 pages you all complain that you can't find good workers and now it comes out that you wouldn't encourage your own kids to work in the trades. :whistling

-Hal


----------



## Bambamm511 (Jan 29, 2014)

For the most part, I think the older generation is lazy. Spent years doing things the wrong way or inefficiently and too stubborn to change. 

Think they are worth a fortune because of age but move like molasses and it still needs to be fixed.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ComRemodel said:


> Well, yeah it does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's not a position I want to take. I encourage my kids to be whatever they want and strive to be the best at whatever that is. My wants/needs shouldn't be pushed onto my kids. 


Mike.
_______________


----------



## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Bambamm511 said:


> For the most part, I think the older generation is lazy. Spent years doing things the wrong way or inefficiently and too stubborn to change.
> 
> Think they are worth a fortune because of age but move like molasses and it still needs to be fixed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


So I assume you're calling me lazy? I'm 59, I work hard and I'm just now figuring out ways and spending money to reduce the toll on my body. Has it occurred to you that they realize the pay sucks, that they should be earning more? They like myself that have been in this industry for a long time (myself over 40 years) have seen better days. The pay scale isn't where it should be compared to 20-30 years ago. And that's just not this industry. How would you feel if You earned the same or even less pay than you did 20-30 years ago? What do you think was the driving force behind the man that became president?

Now it may be true they can be stubborn and are reluctant to learn new ways or even be aware of them. They've lost the desire and motivation, they've spent most of their lives in an industry that went downhill. I try new methods and products all the time but not until I've researched them and not for the sake of efficiency, I do it if I feel I'm supplying a better product or a better method if more efficiency come with that's a plus. 

Inefficient? Times have changed but efficiency doesn't equal quality, today getting it done as fast as possible seems to be the goal. There's bad work everywhere age doesn't matter, I see it on almost every job I do and it's someone younger than myself that did the work.

There's so many in this industry that don't come close to knowing what their doing it's a f**king joke and that's the younger ones that can't get a job, sit around and watch HGTV, wake up one day and say "Yeah I can do that"

So don't knock the older guys because you don't have a clue. You're getting your fix, low paid unskilled, clueless young people and immigrants many of them have no intention of making this industry their career.


----------



## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

avenge said:


> So I assume you're calling me lazy? I'm 59, I work hard and I'm just now figuring out ways and spending money to reduce the toll on my body. Has it occurred to you that they realize the pay sucks, that they should be earning more? They like myself that have been in this industry for a long time (myself over 40 years) have seen better days. The pay scale isn't where it should be compared to 20-30 years ago. And that's just not this industry. How would you feel if You earned the same or even less pay than you did 20-30 years ago? What do you think was the driving force behind the man that became president?
> 
> Now it may be true they can be stubborn and are reluctant to learn new ways or even be aware of them. They've lost the desire and motivation, they've spent most of their lives in an industry that went downhill. I try new methods and products all the time but not until I've researched them and not for the sake of efficiency, I do it if I feel I'm supplying a better product or a better method if more efficiency come with that's a plus.
> 
> ...


Yep, gee what can I add? I've seen it more than a couple of times....young kid late 20's early 30's gets a job as a union carpenter (they need warm bodies too) but sooner or later he gets with a foreman or super that's for real and he finds he's in way over his head. He then convinces Mommy and/or Daddy to set him up in his own business in other words buy the kid a job....he still knows next to nothing and his fresh eager face is stealing customers from you


----------



## kixnbux (Feb 12, 2015)

I will push my kids toward a trade. Our local vo tech offers free half day during the last 2 year of their high school and free full days schooling for 2 years after high school and Just like I did it they will too. If after that they still want college then that’s their decision but they will have a fall back trade period


----------



## B.Johnson (Sep 17, 2016)

I can't add anything at all, but I would expand on one thing that Avenge said. Wages in this country are (and have been) stagnant or declining. I won't get into why I think that it has happened, only that I fear that it will be the downfall of our country.


----------



## Bambamm511 (Jan 29, 2014)

avenge said:


> So I assume you're calling me lazy? I'm 59, I work hard and I'm just now figuring out ways and spending money to reduce the toll on my body. Has it occurred to you that they realize the pay sucks, that they should be earning more? They like myself that have been in this industry for a long time (myself over 40 years) have seen better days. The pay scale isn't where it should be compared to 20-30 years ago. And that's just not this industry. How would you feel if You earned the same or even less pay than you did 20-30 years ago? What do you think was the driving force behind the man that became president?
> 
> Now it may be true they can be stubborn and are reluctant to learn new ways or even be aware of them. They've lost the desire and motivation, they've spent most of their lives in an industry that went downhill. I try new methods and products all the time but not until I've researched them and not for the sake of efficiency, I do it if I feel I'm supplying a better product or a better method if more efficiency come with that's a plus.
> 
> ...


I wasn't singling anyone out.

Why isn't the pay skill where it should be? Whose fault is that? Why do so many guys still not know to price properly?

All im saying is everyone blames the younger generation but the older generation isn't much different. There are good and bad at every level.

I am confident you personally would most likely out work most guys I know.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

Bambamm511 said:


> I wasn't singling anyone out.
> 
> Why isn't the pay skill where it should be? Whose fault is that? Why do so many guys still not know to price properly?
> 
> ...


Every day will breed another 1st time contractor just happy to earn a little more than his hourly employee wage. The barrier to entry in many states is limited or non-existent. In RI, you only need $175 to the SoS, $100/annually to the Cont Reg Board and $600 will get you the cheapest, least coverage insurance to get you off and running. It's an intro investment of less than $1000. That being said, if you were making $18/hr and you have an opportunity to price well below market rate to guarantee business and you off the ground, you're going to do it. Years later you'll realize the mistakes you made in the beginning, but chances are we all made them; I know I did.

I will add in my opinion, another big issue I see with guys bidding is not knowing their back end numbers. I've seen many guys tell me they make 70-80k/ year but their accounting is non-existent and they do a piss pour job of maintaining and tracking write-offs of all sorts(generator gas, office supplies, work clothing, etc.).

This leads guys to severely under-price jobs and further perpetuate lowering the market standard as a whole.


----------



## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

MattK said:


> Every day will breed another 1st time contractor just happy to earn a little more than his hourly employee wage. The barrier to entry in many states is limited or non-existent. In RI, you only need $175 to the SoS, $100/annually to the Cont Reg Board and $600 will get you the cheapest, least coverage insurance to get you off and running. It's an intro investment of less than $1000. That being said, if you were making $18/hr and you have an opportunity to price well below market rate to guarantee business and you off the ground, you're going to do it. Years later you'll realize the mistakes you made in the beginning, but chances are we all made them; I know I did.
> 
> I will add in my opinion, another big issue I see with guys bidding is not knowing their back end numbers. I've seen many guys tell me they make 70-80k/ year but their accounting is non-existent and they do a piss pour job of maintaining and tracking write-offs of all sorts(generator gas, office supplies, work clothing, etc.).
> 
> This leads guys to severely under-price jobs and further perpetuate lowering the market standard as a whole.


In Missouri all you need is a craigslist ad and a pickup truck....you can pick up tools as needed at harbor freight or garage sales. It's why my close rate at best is 1 in 6


----------



## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Bambamm511 said:


> I wasn't singling anyone out.
> 
> Why isn't the pay skill where it should be? Whose fault is that? Why do so many guys still not know to price properly?
> 
> ...


I don't think there's one definitive answer, personally I would say immigrants, government & greed as my top three. If an immigrant gets a job for $10-$12 an hour they feel they hit the jackpot when that job paid an American $20 or more an hour.

Jobs in this industry used to be sought after and highly regarded, there's hardly any good jobs in any industry these days. With HGTV and Home Depot lessons everyone thinks they can get in this industry and they do. It's obvious in this forum I call people out all the time as DIY'ers when they're actually in the industry.

If a person is earning $15 an hour and decides to go on their own they think they're successful charging $20 an hour.

I know a guy that was a painter in a hospital doing closets everyday. He borrows $30,000 from grandpa, starts a painting/remodeling business. Starts a website, advertising, his wife is a hairdresser with high end clients, she starts getting him jobs. His website and advertising is nothing but lies and bull. He never does anything correctly mainly because he doesn't have a clue but he's so far in debt and spends money foolishly unless he cuts corners and rips people off his bills won't get paid. He won't pay the good ones the higher pay, he'd rather pay less for crappy work.

He's basically a salesman and designer. I haven't figured how someone who doesn't have a clue how it's done then how can you estimate it? I've met some of his clients they know he's a bull****ter but yet they use him again, until these jobs that he's done wrong will come back and bite him in the ass and it will happen he just might find himself hanging by a thread.

The stories I could tell about this guy are endless and that's just one of the guys I know. He's one reason why people become DIY'ers, why pay so much for crap work and his employees are barely earning a wage?.

I'm done.....for now.


----------



## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Maybe I'm not done.

I think the well drying up is a good thing if the right people get in it. Otherwise what else will drive up the rates?


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

If others can't get the work done my demand will go up.


Mike.
_______________


----------



## Bambamm511 (Jan 29, 2014)

avenge said:


> Maybe I'm not done.
> 
> I think the well drying up is a good thing if the right people get in it. Otherwise what else will drive up the rates?


It's a great thing. Realistically looking at the trades in my area, everyone is struggling finding good employees. Everyone I talk to (legit guys) are working less and making more and it will continue to happen. There will still be homeowners who simply can't afford for things to be done right but those who understand will be paying more than they imagined but it's how it is. Most guys I know of are scheduling months out.

There will be big changes in the next five years. My plan is to focus on my highest profit margin work and turn down anything that isn't going to get me those margins.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

I think part of the problem is the aging population that can't afford to retire.

I'm talking guys at 75 working because they have to because they still have 10 years on their mortgage.

I think it holds back jobs from younger guys who could have taken over that job to learn a trade

Sent from my XP7700 using Tapatalk


----------



## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

SectorSecurity said:


> I think part of the problem is the aging population that can't afford to retire.
> 
> I'm talking guys at 75 working because they have to because they still have 10 years on their mortgage.
> 
> ...


You may not be able to retire either sonny. I'm 60 I can semi-retire I think. Maybe. But you quickly realize your work was your life. I know it's hard to believe but it's true....once you're caught up and take a few vacations you'll get bored sometimes


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Once you get past the initial excitement of starting retirement, it can be a lot of work trying to fill that time in retirement...


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm somewhat afraid to retire. My biggest fear is golf will get old. 


Mike.
_______________


----------



## Stilla (Sep 23, 2017)

This is truly a fantastic thread. I spent the morning reading every word. I am 39, I am not sure if that makes me a millennial, but I am kinda sure I am the son of the baby boomers generation. Lots of things have been stipulated about my kind in this topic, like, am I working, do I want to work, where can I find you, are you lazy, are you on drugs? That's just to start.

I am also the product of the 2008 recession, where I couldn't buy a job, like the other hundreds of thousands of workers. The trades took the biggest hit. 

There was a 5 year gap where landing a job as a tradesmen was like winning the lottery. Most of the initial jobs went to the skilled workers. The pool of young journeyman had to wait for the economy to stabilize, or work at a huge discount, or find a new path to pay the bills.

Why is any of this relevant? In that five-year span there were no gophers in the pipe. Skilled Tradesman we're not teaching apprentices and laborers. The market was dry. Young people moved away from trades for jobs they could get.

We are still coming out of a huge recession, young people are very aware about how life changed so drastically for tradesmen, they are looking for greener pastures.

You would have to be blind, not to see the huge difference between the corporate workforce and the trade workforce as it relates to demographics.

It would be wise for me to understand more than just English if I want to be competitive, and have a job.


----------



## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

College is good for some, going directly into a trade is good for some. Some aren't worth a chit no matter what they do.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I regret I didn't get a business degree. Would've came in handy.
> 
> _________________


My best friend has an honors degree in business from Tech. We do the same thing and I don't see he has any advantages as a GC but he does have those options to go corporate somewhere and has great contacts to do that from his fraternity ect... He also got to play for 4 more years on a fill scholarship :laughing:

This business was not developed and was a start up when we started together, but I did have the massive benefit of a long term carpenter/builder/businessman with decades of experience to mentor and council me or I'd probably think differently about that business degree.....


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TxElectrician said:


> College is good for some, going directly into a trade is good for some. Some aren't worth a chit no matter what they do.


That about sums it up. Concisely :laughing:


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

A business degree is only good for so much. One of the people I know who ran their business right into the ground quick when they tried to expand had a business degree. She didn't really learn how risky expansion was, and figure out your cash flow ahead of time, especially if you're going govt contract with SLOWWWW pay. Already leveraged, so the money supply dried up....

I say work at construction during the day when you're young, and do the degree at night school.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> My best friend has an honors degree in business from Tech. We do the same thing and I don't see he has any advantages as a GC but he does have those options to go corporate somewhere and has great contacts to do that from his fraternity ect... He also got to play for 4 more years on a fill scholarship :laughing:
> 
> This business was not developed and was a start up when we started together, but I did have the massive benefit of a long term carpenter/builder/businessman with decades of experience to mentor and council me or I'd probably think differently about that business degree.....


You don't know what you don't know. Same with your friend. 

_________________


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> You don't know what you don't know. Same with your friend.
> 
> _________________


Yeah? I'll take my chances. :thumbsup: 

When I'm about ready to hang my spurs up maybe I'll have it all figured out :whistling:laughing:


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I think a business degree would be a great asset. My sights would more them likely be further than a construction company. Being a developer is where the money is. Then I could hire Jaws construction. 

_________________


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I think a business degree would be a great asset. My sights would more them likely be further than a construction company. Being a developer is where the money is. Then I could hire Jaws construction.
> 
> _________________


I'm good with that :laughing:


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Think big or go the **** home! :laughing 

_________________


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Think big or go the **** home! :laughing
> 
> _________________


I agree with that.:laughing: 

In reality, I absolutely understand my limitations due to a lack of knowledge and education in thinking big. There are a lot of things that a business degree would teach you about personnel management, management systems, and all different manner of things I don't even know what.:laughing: that would be necessary to successfully take a company to the next level from a few million a year and sales to a large development or Construction Company. 

At this point I would have to hire people who show me what to do to get to that level if I ever wanted to do that. I don't really see ever trying to do that but it is a limited option due to education for sure

My only point is that if I had to trade knowing how to actually build a house well, for a business degree, or give up something I own or have achieved at this point I would not make that trade. And one of those things would have to happen for me to have done that. My entire life may have been different, and that may not be a good thing as I am pretty happy with how it is turned out so far. Business-wise I am doing exactly what I wanted to do when I started out. 

Like Tx I said, some or meant for the trades and some to go to college, I am definitely a trades guy


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

If you really want a college degree, you can always marry one.:whistling


----------



## ComRemodel (Jul 5, 2016)

Ok, so with all this being said we should have a pretty good picture of why there are no kids wanting to go into the trades. With all the kids out there, there have to be many wanting to take that path if it wasn't for:

1) An educational system that doesn't even tell kids that there is an option besides college.

2) A pervasive societal perception that trades people are not worthwhile people, 2nd class citizens. 

3) A government that doesn't mandate some form of introductory vocational or trade classes during high school. 

Knowing this, now we need to figure out what we can do to make this problem go away, otherwise the well will go dry and the only option will be immigrant labor.

-Hal


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I am a strong believer in industrial arts classes. 

It was woodshop that steered me towards being a Carpenter. Jesus Crist and Noah helped as well. I heard homeboy could build one badass boat. 


Mike.
_______________


----------



## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Please enough about college. These days it just means you payed your money and showed up. How do we know you learned anything? I've seen so called college graduates that don't know coefficient from deficient. 

We were taking about the shortage of good employees here and in the employee thread. I have a somewhat workable solution here. I share with other contractors when they are slow I borrow one or two of theirs and likewise. Sometimes we all work together. 

If it's that big of a problem I have another idea. I'll start a nationwide labor pool....Construction only....pre screened applicants ...I take a nominal fee....you use as little or as much as you like. If you want to hire them permanently they are my property so we can negotiate.....Call it Construction Pimp Inc.


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

There are temp services out there already. You can try someone and then hire later if you want. There are also day labor places, even up here. Most of those people are good for a shovel, or simple work.

You can't hire skilled labor if the skills aren't being built.

Even one of my sons (no interest in learning to fix a car or work on a house) wished he'd worked with me when he was younger. At least he'd know something about cars or construction.

He was a heck of a baseball player, though.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ComRemodel said:


> Ok, so with all this being said we should have a pretty good picture of why there are no kids wanting to go into the trades. With all the kids out there, there have to be many wanting to take that path if it wasn't for:
> 
> 1) An educational system that doesn't even tell kids that there is an option besides college.
> 
> ...


1) as far as educators pushing college instead of the trades, you have to get involved in a local level to show them both the need and demand for tradespeople as well as show the kids some success stories

2) have not experienced the second class citizen. Maybe it's there and I don't notice because I'm not insecure? Or maybe it's a chop on a lot of trades guys shoulders

3) the government doesn't do **** and hasn't in a long time. The schools are beauracratic wastelands that put history teachers over shop :laughing: 

Get involved. Like I said on 1), get with NAHB or your local hba and get some statistics for demand of tradesman, and try to get involved with the school for a workforce mentor program. We have done it in 5 schools here, started my last term as HBA president. Still a joke at my local school where I went but several of the others are actually having tradesman mentor students and getting them ready for real jobs in the trades. We are still struggling along and working with the school locally to get it going, maybe build workforce housing for the teachers as many have a hard time with housing costs here. 

I have hired some temps during the summer and have had several welders from the program work on our projects after they graduated. 

Got to cowboy up and do something besides *****. Bitching is like a rocking chair, gives you something to do but doesn't get you anywhere. Got to give up time or money or both or just deal with what we got. Expecting the government to do anything but make it worse is ignorant. History repeats itself


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with the trades or college. My perception is that colleges do a great job of "teaching" one to work for someone. The most successful guys,Gates and Zuckerburger dropped out of Harvard. Not saying college stymies self reliance and the entrepreneur mindset,but it does not do a great job of promoting it.

I would take all day long the worst business over the best job. But that is just me,not saying it is the best for all.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> 1) as far as educators pushing college instead of the trades, you have to get involved in a local level to show them both the need and demand for tradespeople as well as show the kids some success stories
> 
> 2) have not experienced the second class citizen. Maybe it's there and I don't notice because I'm not insecure? Or maybe it's a chop on a lot of trades guys shoulders
> 
> ...


I agree with this 100%, but will add that nothing will really change until the one's in charge feel the pain. The pain will be in the form of outrageous costs for services that reflect the shortage in the labor force. Then they will get it.


----------



## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

^^^Some guys never got light. Did you read my post #218. They will change rules. Everyone will be poor but tradesman will be poorest. There will not be demand. If you will not go to do what they say dark will swallow you.


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

tipitop said:


> ^^^Some guys never got light. Did you read my post #218. They will change rules. Everyone will be poor but tradesman will be poorest. There will not be demand. If you will not go to do what they say dark will swallow you.


Or they will simply find ways to avoid the issues altogether...

And the irony is, if you listen to the videos, a common theme they base it on is not being able to find workers (you mean workers that are willing to accept so little)... I guess the companies found another way to eliminate the next level of low-wage workers... they don't have to pay employment costs for these... :no:

The kicker is watching how proud the engineers are, not realizing that AI is being stacked against them in the future for their jobs...


----------



## MOC (Mar 14, 2017)

I've found with entry level laborers the more I paid the easier it was for them to call-in, show up late, etc.. Paying them less makes them hungry for more, worked harder, showed up on time, etc.. Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.


----------



## Stilla (Sep 23, 2017)

The schools aren't going to motivate people to go into the trades. They never have and never will. Yes it's true, not to long ago there were shop classes in highschools, that's because most of U.S. economy was built around blue collar jobs. Those classes were remanence of a time long gawn, they were created for the, U.S. highway system, for ww1 and 2. We now live in a service economy. Assist the baby boomers as they age.

Target, (the super store,) just announced they're going to pay all of their employees at least $15. Walmart, is going to offer a product, where someone walks into your home and puts together your shopping lists.

I grew up watching This Old House and the Yankee Workshop, I thought carpenters were awesome. I thought I was to stupid to get into the trades, until I was given the chance to be a carpenter.

I have read articles about how carpenters and tradesmen, were thought highly of, like a doctor or a lawyer 100 years ago. 


Maybe it's about time, being a tradesmen, is a niche job, and those who go into the trades get paid well for planning that future like any doctor or lawyer.


----------



## ComRemodel (Jul 5, 2016)

I think shows like This Old House and Home Depot, Lowes et al add to the public's perception that trades people are second class citizens. 

Years ago if you needed electrical or plumbing material the only place to get it was a supply house. And if you weren't a pro they would show you the door. Now, with all the TV shows and Big Box stores people can get anything they want encouraged by how "easy" it is to do the work. The thinking is geeze, how much intelligence does it take if I can do it (never mind doing it right).

Try that with brain surgery and you see why neurosurgeons are higher up the food chain.

-Hal


----------



## Stilla (Sep 23, 2017)

ComRemodel said:


> I think shows like This Old House and Home Depot, Lowes et al add to the public's perception that trades people are second class citizens.
> 
> Years ago if you needed electrical or plumbing material the only place to get it was a supply house. And if you weren't a pro they would show you the door. Now, with all the TV shows and Big Box stores people can get anything they want encouraged by how "easy" it is to do the work. The thinking is geeze, how much intelligence does it take if I can do it (never mind doing it right).
> 
> ...


Your right Lowe's, the Home Depot and T.V. shows, show how hard it is to paint, use a nail, and screws, solder joint, and cut wood. Those dumb home owners should pay a professional screwer, and sawdust maker. They are too dumb.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tipitop said:


> ^^^Some guys never got light. Did you read my post #218. They will change rules. Everyone will be poor but tradesman will be poorest. There will not be demand. If you will not go to do what they say dark will swallow you.


I ignore you so no I didn't read your post.

You can't change the rules. People need plumbers, electricians, guys to remodel their house. When there is a shortage and demand increases so does price. When it begins to hurt, they will realize the need and might do something about it.

Don't you have some legal blunder to consume your life?


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MOC said:


> I've found with entry level laborers the more I paid the easier it was for them to call-in, show up late, etc.. Paying them less makes them hungry for more, worked harder, showed up on time, etc.. Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.


Find the right guys.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Stilla said:


> The schools aren't going to motivate people to go into the trades. They never have and never will. Yes it's true, not to long ago there were shop classes in highschools, that's because most of U.S. economy was built around blue collar jobs. Those classes were remanence of a time long gawn, they were created for the, U.S. highway system, for ww1 and 2. We now live in a service economy. Assist the baby boomers as they age.
> 
> Target, (the super store,) just announced they're going to pay all of their employees at least $15. Walmart, is going to offer a product, where someone walks into your home and puts together your shopping lists.
> 
> ...


When you needed a case of planes to create trim, it was a highly skilled trade and they were seen as such.

But where I grew up they did encourage the trades and not only had shop but also building trades. They would build a house over the year. Every year they would work with a different builder and work on a house.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

as Gary Katz talks about there was a time when a master tradesman wore a shirt and tie to the job..


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tom struble said:


> as gary katz talks about there was a time when a master tradesman wore a shirt and tie to the job..


----------



## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Don't you have some legal blunder to consume your life?


If other 99 creditors would stand with me I would win case. If you remember I did call each one from list. From some offices I get literally kick out. I stand proud all the way. Strange after that I have most job ever and it for 5$ more per hour. God exist? And case is not over. Lawyer, trustee and so on will see me more on court. Just can not handle at moment because of work load.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tipitop said:


> If other 99 creditors would stand with me I would win case. If you remember I did call each one from list. From some offices I get literally kick out. I stand proud all the way. Strange after that I have most job ever and it for 5$ more per hour. God exist? And case is not over. Lawyer, trustee and so on will see me more on court. Just can not handle at moment because of work load.


A fool and his money are soon parted. You have spent more money on this case than you have lost or would ever gain. :thumbsup:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> A fool and his money are soon parted. You have spent more money on this case than you have lost or would ever gain.


I don't agree with a lot Tipi posts. 

I gotta say some fights are worth fighting for the fight. For some people it's impossible to back down. That has its positives and negatives. 

I respect he didn't back off of his. I doubt I could forgive a man Not paying a debt he owed me. Not in my nature. Not in his either I'd gather

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> I don't agree with a lot Tipi posts.
> 
> I gotta say some fights are worth fighting for the fight. For some people it's impossible to back down. That has its positives and negatives.
> 
> ...


After knowing what I know about the situation and tipi, this wasn't a fight worth fighting. He failed in so many ways from the start, he carry's just as much blame as the guy he is going after. Then the whole conspiracy aspect is a joke. No one is out to get him.

Not to mention I am reminded of this:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> After knowing what I know about the situation and tipi, this wasn't a fight worth fighting. He failed in so many ways from the start, he carry's just as much blame as the guy he is going after. Then the whole conspiracy aspect is a joke. No one is out to get him.
> 
> Not to mention I am reminded of this:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3L1Tokh3Pg


Did he do work and not get paid?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> After knowing what I know about the situation and tipi, this wasn't a fight worth fighting. He failed in so many ways from the start, he carry's just as much blame as the guy he is going after. Then the whole conspiracy aspect is a joke. No one is out to get him.
> 
> Not to mention I am reminded of this:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3L1Tokh3Pg


Fwiw I wouldn't let the 20 bucks go. Dude would find my 20 bucks fast lol

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Fwiw I wouldn't let the 20 bucks go. Dude would find my 20 bucks fast lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Maybe you can help Tipi get his $4500 back then... pretty sure he'd pay you a "finders fee"... :whistling :laughing:


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

tipitop said:


> If other 99 creditors


Famous old saying: "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

How long ago was this - and you are still whining about it?


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Jaws said:


> Fwiw I wouldn't let the 20 bucks go. Dude would find my 20 bucks fast lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Yup. That's the difference tho: It would have been handled, and you would have moved on.


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Jaws said:


> Did he do work and not get paid?


He performed half-assed work as a half-assed scab contractor and got half-assed scab results.

This is not a one time thing. It is an inherent condition of being Tipi.

Each and every other wannabee unlicensed, uninsured, day labor Craigs list specialist has been run out of here on a rail.


----------



## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

I passed wannabe situation 20 years and 6 months ago when I start work at my first house. It was 7 million dollar Dayton Hudson residence. Will not go to post again my portfolio 101st time.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Spencer said:


> That right there is something I haven't heard before but I really like it. No BSing with the guy. No trying to keep a guy crippled once he reaches a certain level so that he has to stay with you. You're tell him straight up that if he has got the stuff to be his own boss you will teach him and set him up with the inside knowledge to do so in exchange for X years of his dedication. Very interesting strategy.


It's inevitable and imperative. Very few people who have the ability to lead and manage properly will not hear the calling of hanging their own shingle out eventually.i am not trying to mislead him out of that

I am sure he is already thinking that when I hired him. Every single job I took between the ages of 17 and 26 were to become a builder


----------



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Jaws said:


> It's inevitable and imperative. Very few people who have the ability to lead and manage properly will not hear the calling of hanging their own shingle out eventually.i am not trying to mislead him out of that
> 
> I am sure he is already thinking that when I hired him. Every single job I took between the ages of 17 and 26 were to become a builder


Yep. You can go back and search for the first thread I had here on CT...I would have been either 16 or 17 when my plan was..."How do I become a contractor" :laughing::laughing:

That was always the end game for me. Still took me till I was 25 though. I would have been an animal for a guy like you who would have made me that offer.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Spencer said:


> Yep. You can go back and search for the first thread I had here on CT...I would have been either 16 or 17 when my plan was..."How do I become a contractor" :laughing::laughing:
> 
> That was always the end game for me. Still took me till I was 25 though. I would have been an animal for a guy like you who would have made me that offer.


That's the plan. He better not be a snowflake for my subs and crew will eat him alive. LOL

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Jaws said:


> That's the plan. He better not be a snowflake for my subs and crew will eat him alive. LOL
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


It does take time. I look back at myself and shake my head. 

Personal development is very important. Once he really starts to understand himself, his gifts, his weaknesses, his goals....he can become an efficiency machine. Once a person gets to a point where they can teach their mind how to have the confidence and ability to tackle and problem or obstacle and execute....there is a certain "power band" that you enter into. Takes time to get there though.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

When I told him that his job was to help my Subs and employees, and that he was not at this time anyone's boss and that all of those subcontractors and hands knew me extremely well on a personal level and had my cell phone number, and many had worked side-by-side with me on projects and would not hesitate to call me and tell me he is a f*** up his eyes look like saucers. LOL.

I think he understands the dichotomy of his role at this point and what it will take for him to become the manager over those people


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Spencer said:


> It does take time. I look back at myself and shake my head.
> 
> Personal development is very important. Once he really starts to understand himself, his gifts, his weaknesses, his goals....he can become an efficiency machine. Once a person gets to a point where they can teach their mind how to have the confidence and ability to tackle and problem or obstacle and execute....there is a certain "power band" that you enter into. Takes time to get there though.


I got thrown into management and leadership roles at an early age, too early in hindsight, but I never back down from the Challenge. Hopefully he will be the same. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> I would take the required steps to retrieve it.
> 
> A lot of people have owed me money. Only one hasn't decided to pay.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


What steps? What steps would you take to get back that $20?


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Good advice but some people it's not all business
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


And that is why I said a fool and his money are soon parted.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What steps? What steps would you take to get back that $20?


That would depend on the situation. I'm multi talented. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> And that is why I said a fool and his money are soon parted.


I may be a fool but so far I feel like I'm winning in that column. 

The same guy that makes my living day in and day out is the same guy who will get that 20 dollars from someone who doesn't want to pay what they owe. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> That would depend on the situation. I'm multi talented.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


And very careful with your words...


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> And very careful with your words...


Measured response requires thought, reflection on past experience and experiences learned through others, and sometimes diplomacy... It's still a work in progress lol

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

I'm not familiar with Tipi's situation but if I could collect from every POS that owed me money I wouldn't have to worry about keeping this winter booked. The situations happened long ago and it always involved getting involved with somebody where it was against my better judgement but desperation got the best of me. You know when someone is a scumbag....if you don't have that 6th sense you'll always get screwed...Live and learn


----------



## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What steps? What steps would you take to get back that $20?


Well I don't know what he would do butttt,,, Once a guy was messing with me and I saw him at the beach park and went up to talk to him and he gave my some chit in his accent and I grabbed him by the shirt and with both hands and slammed so hard into a tree he couldn't breath right. I told him what I need to and all problems were solved:thumbsup: You've never been false cracked:whistling I know I have,,,


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Irishslave said:


> I'm not familiar with Tipi's situation but if I could collect from every POS that owed me money I wouldn't have to worry about keeping this winter booked. The situations happened long ago and it always involved getting involved with somebody where it was against my better judgement but desperation got the best of me. You know when someone is a scumbag....if you don't have that 6th sense you'll always get screwed...Live and learn


Only happened to me once. He wishes he paid me every time he sees me around I guarantee you and that a worth more to me than money. 

I feel.the same way at getting jipped the same way I felt about getting ear holed by Gus Henry in 4th grade football practice.... he got the best of me. I made sure to light his ass up the next opportunity. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

A great leader of men once said - "what you tolerate becomes the standard"

That's a wealth of knowledge right there. I'll be up between 415-430 tomorrow to make my little company all it can be. I'll think about and use that qoute as we all.should. 

I don't want the standard to be Jaws doesn't get paid what he's owed for sure. Worth a lot of trouble to keep that from happening.


----------



## HansDohm (Oct 19, 2016)

Just for your info on the subject.. on the CBS Sunday Morning Show this last sunday.
https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/rebuilding-americas-pool-of-construction-workers/

The segment is on the subject of not enough new hires coming to the trades.

By the way my EZ Square holder showed up on tool belt worn by Norm Abrams. 
at time mark 8:26 mins pretty cool for this old guy who invented the damm thing.







EZSquareHolder.com


----------



## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

HansDohm said:


> Just for your info on the subject.. on the CBS Sunday Morning Show this last sunday.
> https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/rebuilding-americas-pool-of-construction-workers/
> 
> The segment is on the subject of not enough new hires coming to the trades.
> ...


You've advertised your square holder in every post so far. I like how you've worked it into every thread, lol. Not knocking you, I'd do the same if I ever had a good invention. :thumbsup:

Maybe Cricket and you can work something out for an October drawing. :whistling


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

MattK said:


> You've advertised your square holder in every post so far. I like how you've worked it into every thread, lol. Not knocking you, I'd do the same if I ever had a good invention. :thumbsup:
> 
> Maybe Cricket and you can work something out for an October drawing. :whistling


Only problem is his video link doesn't work... :whistling


----------



## HansDohm (Oct 19, 2016)

*link is good but CBS site is slow to load*



KAP said:


> Only problem is his video link doesn't work... :whistling


I checked the link and it works but slow, I guess CBS is getting some play LOL
9 min segment is a good one for this thread
I would love to find out how to help the Mike Rowe foundation:thumbup:


----------

