# Why not boards with FOUR tape edges?



## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

Wouldn't that make more sense? No more butt joints. Why not?


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

Sure, Time-versus-Cost trade-offs. Which one is better 4 U? Your pick. :thumbsup:


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

SelfContract said:


> Sure, Time-versus-Cost trade-offs. Which one is better 4 U? Your pick. :thumbsup:


 I dont understand...do they make it already? Where do I find it? I dont see why it should cost more to recess the ends. Elaborate, please.... I do PASSABLE mud jobs but butt joints are time wasters for me. Of course, you will still have an occasional but joint no matter what.I do jobs too small for real drywallers to even consider, so I'm not taking anyones work here.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Because that would require completely 
new manufacturing processes and
machinery.
They make the stuff in one long 
continuous sheet and chop it off
in different lengths, like a giant 
paper cutter.


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

They do make a roller tool, that you can run along a butt edge to smooth it into a factor-like edge (minus the paper over the end of it)..


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

AtlanticWBConst said:


> They do make a roller tool, that you can run along a butt edge to smooth it into a factor-like edge (minus the paper over the end of it)..


 Nice. So you cut the paper face off the end an the tool crushes the gypsum? Or is it shaved down like a rasp? Doesnt that get gypsum bits in the mud?


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

I've never used it, just seen it.


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

neolitic said:


> Because that would require completely
> new manufacturing processes and
> machinery.
> They make the stuff in one long
> ...


Well, I bet if they figured it out they would be the preferred choice. Its not rocket science.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

The boards would have to be made 
one at a time, rather than hundreds
of thousands at a time.
Might effect the price a bit.
Think about it for a minute.
The way drywall is manufactured
the line never stops, just rolls
mile after mile of board in one
continuous process.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

We walked on the moon, I think we can figure out how to cut a sheet of drywall off at the factory and give it a tapered cut. Sounds like I'd pay an extra 3 cents a board for it.


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

A standard drywall factory table is around 300 feet.It doesnt go for miles and miles! Never seen a factory miles long...When the slurry is wet and curing on the table, they could manually stamp tape edges 36 times a 8 foot interval before cutting. I'd even pay an extra DOLLAR a board!


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

It doesn't ever stop and lay 
on a table....it never stops
til it's cut and stacked.

On a side note, since it's 
such a simple idea, you guys 
will be over night billionaires
as soon as you get your ideas
drawn up for patents!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Does anybody realize that sheet rock didn't used to have any tapered edges in it's early days? :whistling


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## novicepro (Feb 29, 2008)

Do you guys use a 24" knife on your butt seams?
That's what I use and it comes out pretty flat.
Spread your mud with the 10" knife, feather the edges and wipe with the 24". No float marks and flat everytime!


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## al10fred1081 (Feb 9, 2008)

Well I suppose you could make a tool to taper the edges, but the paper prolly wouldn't survive could even put a track system on it and mount it on a 9 foot piece of sheathing in the field, make the roller tapered from 1/2 or 5/8ths down to 3/8ths or 7/16ths depending on the thickness of the sheets, mount it to a 1/2 hp motor with a gear reduction to push it down the rail, then have a banjo on the end of it mounted to lay tape right after the roller hits it. all you'd have to do is lay the sheet in the track, butt it up to the preset stops, hit the button watch the roller run and start the banjo when it hits the edge of the sheet....matter of fact you could make a cutting attachment for cutting square sheets to length, just lay another piece of sheathing on the other side, design a cutting head and flip the stops up. I'm thinking you could prolly make it out of a scrap aluminum brake and some round aluminum rails...

Could even have a scissor jack system automated in front of the roller table to lift the pile of sheetrock so you can feed the next piece...

I could build and patent it for prolly $3500...Then sell it for a gazillion dollars.... and then people could buy it for $1750 each when it costs about $105 to produce.

Another million dollar idea drawn up on a damn cocktail napkin....

Alex


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## firemike (Dec 11, 2005)

al10fred1081 said:


> Well I suppose you could make a tool to taper the edges, but the paper prolly wouldn't survive


Already done!

http://www.butttaper.com/thetool.htm


http://www.warehousebay.com/catalog/drywall-tools-butt-joint-solutions-c-411_122_130.html

Never used one, thought it is a good idea though. I don't do enough larger jobs where I could justify buying one, the few times I have to deal with butt joints I use the Buttboards from TrimTex and they seems to work decently.


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

Those look like more work than actually just floating out a joint.


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## Sportbilly (Oct 4, 2006)

firemike said:


> Already done!
> 
> http://www.butttaper.com/thetool.htm


Just an interesting aside, from their Independent Test report http://www.butttaper.com/pdf/FordsDrywall4june02Final.pdf, this little nugget is hidden at the bottom

"It must be noted that all the ButtTaper joints included the use of adhesive and the comparative standard joints did not. It is not possible to differentiate the extent of the higher loads and displacements attributable to the joint style versus the use of adhesive. "

Hmm, I bet the tested methods were as requested by the Manuf.


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

firemike said:


> Already done!
> 
> http://www.butttaper.com/thetool.htm
> 
> ...


Did you guys read my article on the ButtTaper in JLC last year? I guess not....

The BT works great and it's very easy to use. The result is a perfectly flat joint that requires barely any mud, no tape and is fast to do....

http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jl...0191c4927177f0000010560/Product/View/0712tami


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

pfloyd said:


> Wouldn't that make more sense? No more butt joints. Why not?


Maybe i missed something here. It would defeat the purpose to manufacture the board because you have to cut them to size. Cutting them would eliminate the tapered edge.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> O.K. the point is price matters, if the price of the material goes up the price of the job goes up. Lets go with a dollar a board. And say its 500 boards (8x4 would be about 800 boards). Are most contractors going to pay $800 more for the same finished results. I don't think so. Time wise it will come in about the same time. You're right 1.00 a square ft is off,i was making a point. Besides, the taping time would double in a house, not a smaller project. By the way the time to coat a 4' seam and a 4' butt joint isn't great enough to drop the price. But 1.00 a board will raise the price. Again i'm not knocking the idea just saying it's been thought of and knocked down. Not only by me.


A few actual reason I can think of off the top of my head why we justify the use of more expensive materials on our jobs are :

The extra material costs add value and are passed onto the customer who pays us and covers the extra material costs.
The extra material costs are a selling point of our company and we close more sales because of them.
The extra material costs reduce call backs and net a savings to our company over time.
The extra material costs reduce the time to complete a project, allowing more projects to be done in the same amount of time and net an increase in profit to your company.
*The extra material costs reduce time and therefore labor costs of installation and the savings are passed on to your company through lower charges to your company if it's a sub doing the installation or felt directly if it's by your own employees.*
The last one seems to be the most obvious one that you are overlooking. How can anybody not justify spending a dollar if it saves you 2? 

The actual dollar amounts are irrelevant for an example. In the real world a more expensive material is used on a regular basis if the numbers work and it meets one of those 5 reasons or a handful of other ones.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

ajpepe72 said:


> P.s Excellent point made above about where the excess slurry would go if board was stamped at former. I fear the people wanting 4 tapers are now running out of options for where this would actually occur on the line.


I could solve that issue in about 5 seconds and show you in a drawing, but what's the point? If somebody believes that sheet rock manufacturing is the Holy Grail of manufacturing and something as simple as a 4 beveled piece of drywall is unattainable, then so be it. I overcome proportionally more difficult issues on a weekly basis just running my business day-to-day.

You ever seen a ship in a bottle? If you don't know how it's done it seems pretty impossible too. :laughing:


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> A few actual reason I can think of off the top of my head why we justify the use of more expensive materials on our jobs are :
> 
> The extra material costs add value and are passed onto the customer who pays us and covers the extra material costs.
> The extra material costs are a selling point of our company and we close more sales because of them.
> ...


 
Sorry Finly i do not see the practicality of scrapping existing production machinery to bevel drywall products on ends which represent less than 5 percent of the square footage of installed product. You are also introducing a new problem for the installers. That of inside corners. Some factory end tapers will now end up in corners right below or above full thickness sheets. You will now have to blend that difference together. OR cut off those factory tapered ends to generate a smooth consistent thickness product at these corners. Now you are wasting at the very minimum 50% of the tapered ends you are paying extra to have manufactured. Impractical!!! I am certain the drywall manufactures have considered this option back in the forties/fifties and abandoned it.


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## Brockster (Aug 24, 2007)

Thanks AJPEPE for taking the time to explain production errors that cost us finishers lots of time and money over the years. 
We once had the USG boys on the job to show them the troubles we were having with shoulders showing and of course their answer was that we F-ed it up. We argued but to say it was bad rock would cost their company money and no way was that going to happen.

Butcherman, I agree with all your posts if that helps any.:thumbsup:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I am in total agreement that the product has no merit or it would be available. I'm in total disagreement that it is impossible to produce.

As I said before an intelligent manufacturer knows how to market products.



> 4x8 sheet rock is just one a tiny product line offered. In reality if they deemed a market for it, what would happen is they would probably offer this as new product offering, no different then a product like Quiet Rock or FiberRock or their bendable product or anything else they make. Probably call it something like Easy Rock, it would be a separate product produced on a separate line all together. Produced and marketed separately sold at a premium price and have little to do with the bread and butter 4x8 sheet market or process.


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## ajpepe72 (Mar 4, 2008)

Finlay, check out my quote below and then explain to me how you would do it ? taking into account that you cant shut the line down to change size.

Quote: P.s Excellent point made above about where the excess slurry would go if board was stamped at former. I fear the people wanting 4 tapers are now running out of options for where this would actually occur on the line. I suppose you could say that you could put nylon tapes across the boardline widthways at set intervals, but again this isnt possible as all length size changes are done "on the run " and you can have anywhere between 5 and 9 size changes during the day. Imagine how much money the company would loose if each time you wanted to change size you had to shut line down and move tapes and make sure they were spot on length wise ! For every hour the line is down costs about £30'000 and you always have quality problems when you are constantly stopping and starting the line.

But hey, what do i know, im a fully qualified taper who also worked in drywall production for 14 years !
The only way it could happen is to build a dedicated line making only one size of fully tapered board. But our most recent line cost £60 million, would take some time to claw back that kind of money !


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> I am in total agreement that the product has no merit or it would be available. I'm in total disagreement that it is impossible to produce.
> 
> As I said before an intelligent manufacturer knows how to market products.


 
Yes i never said that it couldn't be made. In fact I know how i would go about manufacturing it. But it would take quite a while to explain.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

ajpepe72 said:


> Finlay, check out my quote below and then explain to me how you would do it ? taking into account that you cant shut the line down to change size.
> 
> Quote: P.s Excellent point made above about where the excess slurry would go if board was stamped at former. I fear the people wanting 4 tapers are now running out of options for where this would actually occur on the line. I suppose you could say that you could put nylon tapes across the boardline widthways at set intervals, but again this isnt possible as all length size changes are done "on the run " and you can have anywhere between 5 and 9 size changes during the day. Imagine how much money the company would loose if each time you wanted to change size you had to shut line down and move tapes and make sure they were spot on length wise ! For every hour the line is down costs about £30'000 and you always have quality problems when you are constantly stopping and starting the line.
> 
> ...


Your answer is in my quote in the post above. There is no need to outline a specific solution engineered to minute detail. I'm not here to invent a sheet rock line solution.

Prior to 1908 all automobiles were manufacturered differently then the assembly line method. Prior to 1961 all cars were assembled differently using the assembly line method with human assemblers only.

No one prior to 1908 could imagine there was a process that was waiting to be discovered that would reduce assembly time and costs by 90%. Prior to 1961 no one could imagine there was a way to assemble cars without human beings. 

Whatever method is being used today for sheet rock production does not necessarily mean it will be the method used 10 years from now, or 20 or 30 years from now.

Prior to 1959 all steel was produced in large smelting plants. Prior to 1960 no one could predict that Nucor would come about and invent a new process called the mini mill and totally revolutionize the steel making process.

Like I said, it you believe it can't be done, so be it.


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## ajpepe72 (Mar 4, 2008)

of course it can be done, by having a dedicated line as mentioned above, but im afraid it would never happen due to cost and the fact that so many boards are cut, especially in the uk where almost all vertical wall boards have cuts at the bottom. To say that in 10,20, 30 years time it may be possible is going off on a tangent a little bit, it may well be possible then with super sonic robot powered lasers or something, but you cant possibly predict what technology would be around then. Its like me going onto a car forum and asking why we cant have flying cars ! It could be done maybe in the future but at the moment its not possible and if it was the cost wouldnt be proportionate.
All this is a bit of a silly subject, as pro tapers are telling you that it would cause just as many problems as it would solve.
Anything is possible if you throw unlimited amounts of money at it, but as a business they have to weigh up if its worth it and if demand is there.
Lafarges research and development people are on one hell of a salary, trust me if it was possible and practical it would have been done.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Like I said, it you believe it can't be done, so be it.


In the seventies, Canada believed it was going metric in the construction industry. I even remember they built a metric model house. Except the gypsum board on the walls of that house had to have a filler strip in the middle. 35 years later the drywall manufacturer's still don't believe.


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## ajpepe72 (Mar 4, 2008)

The only place i normally have butt joints is on the ceiling and normally only 2 or 3 on each ceiling, these honestly take no longer to do that tapered joints and i dont know of one single taper that has problems with them.
So, in my opinion the manufacturers are never going to get feedback from us saying we have a problem with it(and we are the trade they take most feedback from). So even if it was possible to do at a reasonable cost, why would they do it when the present specs are not causing a problem for their number one customers (boarders and tapers).


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> O.K. the point is price matters, if the price of the material goes up the price of the job goes up. Lets go with a dollar a board. And say its 500 boards (8x4 would be about 800 boards). Are most contractors going to pay $800 more for the same finished results.


 If it save $1000 in drywall labour time, yes. I still dont understand your claim that you can mud , tape , and finish a butt joint as fast as a recessed joint. If you can, you are very good, but most people arent that good (including me). Not to mention that with a butt joint you are deforming the flat surface of the wall. Period. A tape joint doesn't. Answer me this:If butt joints are the SAME as recessed joints, why do they even bother making TWO??


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> I'm not looking for praise just respect.


 Not calling yourself "Butcherman" would be a good start.:thumbup: Just kidding,bro. I have massive respect for good drywallers. I hope eventually i will become one. it is a LOT easier on the body than framing.


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

A W Smith said:


> Just be honest Floyd. You fear the time and effort required to acquire that skill don't you? as a carpenter it took me many years to learn drywall finishing. You want the drywall industry to manufacture a shortcut for you. The problem lies in the fact that they don't cater to the whining handyman. They cater to drywall professionals and other trades that are willing to acquire the skills needed to survive in the industry. If you cant manage to acquire the skill why not sub it out?
> 
> Another problem with the suggestion that they just put a depression on a formed board every so many feet is that the wet gypsum must be displaced somewhere. where to? a mound next to the depression? that would make the problem worse. the gypsum would have to be screeded down at the forming machine and not after. We already have defective goods showing up in the field with the edge bevel mounding up in high spots.


 Be honest, Smith.WHY did they put TWO bevels on the sheets? A real pro shouldnt need any, because the drywallers are so skilled,right?.:whistling

As far as gypsum displacement, they could have three or four stamped holes in the top paper at the joint for it to puke out.

As a carpenter, you should know better.Its called INNOVATION, not "pleasing the whiners". Ever use a pneumatic hanger nailer? An air gun?.Why dont you do it by hand? If not, ever us cordless eqivalents? Why not use air? Ever use a wall jack? How about an articulated ladder? Are all thos things for "whiners?" I am baffled by the stubborn old dogs around here.This helps US ALL, pros and "whining handymen".


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## ajpepe72 (Mar 4, 2008)

> I still dont understand your claim that you can mud , tape , and finish a butt joint as fast as a recessed joint. If you can, you are very good, but most people arent that good (including me).


What you have to understand is that as tapers, we do this day in day out and eventually its just automatic and it comes naturally, my butts get treated the same as tapered joints but feathered out slightly further. yes, you can see tape after first coat, but once second coat goes on you couldnt tell difference between butts and tapers, then you still have your finish coat to go on.
There are probably things you do as a carpenter that i would never master just doing it occasionally , but if i was to do it day in,day out it would eventually come to me.
When i started taping, my boss would constantly be following behind me tidying up my work and if im honest it was about a year, maybe more before he was confident enough to be able to put me in a house and not come back and check it when finished.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

why do they make twelves? fourteens? did it occur to you that its the easiest way to eliminate butt joints in the first place? of course they tapered the edges. they always have since they started making four foot wide gypsum panels. You also need to scroll up a ways and answer my question as to what you would do with those tapered ends in an inside corner. 

And sorry your holes in the paper is impractical. I have a much better method but as I said, tapered ends would create more problems for the installer than they would solve. best to use a rock splicer and break the joint between joists or studs.


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## ajpepe72 (Mar 4, 2008)

> Be honest, Smith.WHY did they put TWO bevels on the sheets? A real pro shouldnt need any, because the drywallers are so skilled,right?.:whistling
> 
> As far as gypsum displacement, they could have three or four stamped holes in the top paper at the joint for it to puke out.


like ive said, tapers on the edge are easy, just nylon strips either side of the line which are wound in when they make tapered edge and wound out when they go to square edge. If my supplier has no stocks of a certain size of taper board, i have no problem buying square edge.
So, if you have holes for excess slurry to puke out, can you imagine the mess you'd have on the surface of the board.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

pfloyd said:


> Ever use a pneumatic hanger nailer?


 
Ok ill bite. what the heck is a "pneumatic hanger nailer? :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

A W Smith said:


> why do they make twelves? fourteens? did it occur to you that its the easiest way to eliminate butt joints in the first place? of course they tapered the edges. they always have since they started making four foot wide gypsum panels. You also need to scroll up a ways and answer my question as to what you would do with those tapered ends in an inside corner.
> 
> And sorry your holes in the paper is impractical. I have a much better method but as I said, tapered ends would create more problems for the installer than they would solve. best to use a rock splicer and break the joint between joists or studs.


 Hey Smitty, did you know that some walls are OVER 14 feet high? What do you do then? Did you also know that some people work alone or in inaccessible spaces where bringing in 14 footers is impossible? You rarely will have landed a tape edge in a corner, and if so, you deal with it, or you splice two sheets putting the butt (cut) edges into the wall, and WHADDAYA KNOW, you have three remaining bevel edges left on the two pieces for easy taping. Handy, huh? I am done doing all the thinking for you.You seem to want to fight.


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## pfloyd (Feb 28, 2008)

A W Smith said:


> Ok ill bite. what the heck is a "pneumatic hanger nailer? :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


A palm nailer..................And you're old.:laughing::no:


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