# Caulk failure on crown molding



## Tom F.

I'm a GC/spec builder. I've got three new houses that I can't sell. They all have finger jointed pine 6" crown molding throughout. They have been finished since the middle of summer. Being complete, I have no reason to visit the houses but maybe every couple weeks. I was there today, and found that in two of the three houses the caulk has cracked at the ceiling joint, almost 100%, throughout the houses. The heat has been set at 50 degrees in all three houses for months. 

What causes this?
What is the appropriate fix?
How do I stop this from happening again?

The two houses with the problem are conventionally framed. The crown was professionally hung, with blocking where necessary. (By me). These two houses were painted by the same contractor, who has done a very professional job on all aspects, as far as I am concerned. The third house, which is still holding up well, was done by another painter, and is 12 months old now. I am not looking to lay blame, just fix the problem and prevent it from reoccurring on future projects.

Any ideas would be appreciated.


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## Patrick

It could have been a bad batch of caulking, or the caulking got painted before it had time to dry. I am not a painter, but I can tell you from painting my own home, there is a HUGE difference between the 99 cent tubes of caulking and the $2, $3, $4 tubes of painter caulk. Hopefully you will be able to caulk over it??


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## Tom F.

Wouldn't have been a bad batch. The two houses were done about 2 months apart. And they are relatively big houses, 3600' and 5400', so lots of caulk was used.

The caulk isn't painted. The caulk was applied as the final step, after the trim was finish painted. In most cases the break is where the caulk touched the ceiling, not the trim.


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## Leo G

Tom F. said:


> Wouldn't have been a bad batch. The two houses were done about 2 months apart. And they are relatively big houses, 3600' and 5400', so lots of caulk was used.
> 
> The caulk isn't painted. The caulk was applied as the final step, after the trim was finish painted. In most cases the break is where the caulk touched the ceiling, not the trim.


To thin of a caulk line. You need to leave more of the bead intact.


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## DeanV

Your crown could have shrunk more than the caulk could stretch. A high quality caulk always helps.

Having the heat at 50 could also contribute to the crown shrinking. Temperature changes wreck havoc on stuff like that. 

Why would caulking ever be the final step in finishing? That makes no sense.


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## dayspring

Sounds like the crown may have moved. Maybe it isn't fastened well in some areas. Carpenter could have missed the nailers and or studs:w00t:. I always use "Big Flex" caulk for crown, just in case.


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## PlainPainter

Shrinkage of wood -plain and simple. And the shrinking is at it's greatest during the cold winter months - by summer, those cracks will disappear, and then reappear next winter. By setting temps at 50 - you just aggravated the problem. It's easy for one painter to use 15 yr. painters caulking and the other painter to use 45 yr. siliconized acrylic painters caulking. As a builder - you never notice a different, but sometimes like this time you do.


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## Tom F.

I really think it is the temperature causing the wood to shrink. I am certain that the crown installation is not the problem--been down that road before. 

With all this in mind, what is the fix at this point? Do I recaulk right over the existing caulk, or do I have to dig it out before reapplying? If I recaulk now, at 50 degrees, am I going to see problems once the heat comes up?


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## Tom F.

And upon further thought, the caulk was applied before the final coat of trim paint on the crown, not after. Takes me a while to remember....


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## Splinter

Its not just temperature, but humidity as well. The dry winter air adds to the wood shrinkage. You could caulk over it all to fill the gap, but when summer comes, it's going to try to push the caulk back out.. Might not look as bad as the winter gaps you have now, but certainly wont look very good.


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## profinish

I had this same problem for awhile as a painter it was driveing me crazy what I found is prime the crown and let it dry before caulking when you get it wet it moves..
Works better for me anyway..


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## Dorman Painting

This is a hot/cold issue, like the above said, most things in the world shrink when it's cold outside. Things tend to swell or gain their full presence when it's warm outside. This wood is shrinking because of the temperature being frigid. 

Another thing you could check is your insulation in your attic, if you don't have enough, that's a big problem that will lead to this too. I would buy Shermax caulk from Sherwin Williams and give it a go, it's very flexible and might be able to keep up with the contractions.


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## KellyPainting

Yes have dealt with this allot. Especially in new construction....I even have a part in my contract...I'll paste it for you and then explain.


Kellstar Painting will not be responsible for any structural damage that may occur during or after work has been completed. Cracks happen for all sorts of reasons. Different construction materials have different expansion and contraction coefficients, some materials change shape and size as they absorb water and water vapor while materials immediately adjacent to them do not budge. Due to the weather in our area, expansion and contraction 
will occur in new as well as old homes. We make every effort to cosmetically fix any imperfections, but will not warranty any cracks from opening up or screws from popping out of your walls after work has been preformed.

Kellstar painting warranties it's craftsmanship, we take our time and believe in doing things the right way. It's up to you (the customer) to listen to our suggestions and decide what level of preparation and products you would like to receive, and more importantly pay for. 
while you will always receive the same quality work ,there will always be higher 
priced materials and more extensive preparation available.





Now, the cracks...everyones right....Moister...expansion - contraction the heat setting.....and just allowing someone (or yourself) to just caulk and call himself done. Thats not proper painting...you should caulk...let cure.. prime (w/ latex) for maximum elasticity, and final coat twice with finish. To just caulk and walk away is not a finished product. No G.C would ever let me get away with that.....I wish he would.


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## THINKPAINTING

KellyPainting said:


> Yes have dealt with this allot. Especially in new construction....I even have a part in my contract...I'll paste it for you and then explain.
> 
> 
> Kellstar Painting will not be responsible for any structural damage that may occur during or after work has been completed. Cracks happen for all sorts of reasons. Different construction materials have different expansion and contraction coefficients, some materials change shape and size as they absorb water and water vapor while materials immediately adjacent to them do not budge. Due to the weather in our area, expansion and contraction
> will occur in new as well as old homes. We make every effort to cosmetically fix any imperfections, but will not warranty any cracks from opening up or screws from popping out of your walls after work has been preformed.
> 
> Kellstar painting warranties it's craftsmanship, we take our time and believe in doing things the right way. It's up to you (the customer) to listen to our suggestions and decide what level of preparation and products you would like to receive, and more importantly pay for.
> while you will always receive the same quality work ,there will always be higher
> priced materials and more extensive preparation available.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, the cracks...everyones right....Moister...expansion - contraction the heat setting.....and just allowing someone (or yourself) to just caulk and call himself done. Thats not proper painting...you should caulk...let cure.. prime (w/ latex) for maximum elasticity, and final coat twice with finish. To just caulk and walk away is not a finished product. No G.C would ever let me get away with that.....I wish he would.


Very well said....:notworthy:notworthy


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## Tom F.

Very good. Thanks for all the advice. At this point, do you recommend that I wait for warmer weather to fix the problems, or should I do it now? And either way, can I caulk over the old, or do I have to remove it first?


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## slickshift

Exactly what caulk did you use?


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## paint_booger

Kellstar Painting will not be responsible for any structural damage that may occur during or after work has been completed. Cracks happen for all sorts of reasons. Different construction materials have different expansion and contraction coefficients, some materials change shape and size as they absorb water and water vapor while materials immediately adjacent to them do not budge. Due to the weather in our area, expansion and contraction 
will occur in new as well as old homes. We make every effort to cosmetically fix any imperfections, but will not warranty any cracks from opening up or screws from popping out of your walls after work has been preformed.

Kellstar painting warranties it's craftsmanship, we take our time and believe in doing things the right way. It's up to you (the customer) to listen to our suggestions and decide what level of preparation and products you would like to receive, and more importantly pay for. 
while you will always receive the same quality work ,there will always be higher 
priced materials and more extensive preparation available.
:clap::clap::clap:


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## Tom F.

The caulk was a Sherwin williams product, but I do not recall which. I'm the GC, not the painter. Someone previously mentioned Shermax caulk for the repair. Is this a good choice?


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## KellyPainting

Thanks....I got pieces of it at contractor talk....from some of you last year...and just tweeked it. I actually lost a big customer over a caulking situation...And I wanted to learn from my mistakes.


Answer: If the caulking is indented then you can caulk over it....if it's sticking out or even flush I would remove it. Ya screw it do it now...there are houses being caulked everywhere in the world as I'm typing. but don't just prime, re-cut the ceiling over the caulk line and then cut the crown back in to the ceiling.


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## KnHProperties

IMHO 50 is way too cold to keep a house. I bet ALL of the trim has opened up. Heat the house and get some humidity (like 40 % )in there will solve most of the problems. The wood has shrunk, caulk was fine, it can only do so much. 
I bet if you ask a Sherwin Williams they will sell you anything to get you out of the store. 

You are trying a wrong fix forget about the caulk and heat the house.


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## sjm

Prior to becomming a paint contractor years ago,I spent 20 years building homes,upwards of a thousand over that period of time from large customs to trac developments for the Tolls,Ryans etc of the world.... I have installed a miles of crown,chair-rail base etc along the way...wood swells up in cold it does not shrink,it shrinks in the heat.Sounds like A.cheap caulk B.painted to soon or C applied to conservative.Most woods today are kiln dried little to no shrinkage .

You ever have a HO call you and say my door rubs sticks or drags in the winter but works fine in the summer?

Try a top notch caulk and let it set up,I have seen many guys caulk and then within the hour follow it up with paint,wet paint on wet caulk does not work well moreso cheap wet caulk.


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## neolitic

sjm said:


> Prior to becomming a paint contractor years ago,I spent 20 years building homes,upwards of a thousand over that period of time from large customs to trac developments for the Tolls,Ryans etc of the world.... I have installed a miles of crown,chair-rail base etc along the way...wood swells up in cold it does not shrink,it shrinks in the heat.Sounds like A.cheap caulk B.painted to soon or C applied to conservative.Most woods today are kiln dried little to no shrinkage .
> You ever have a HO call you and say my door rubs sticks or drags in the winter but works fine in the summer?
> Try a top notch caulk and let it set up,I have seen many guys caulk and then within the hour follow it up with paint,wet paint on wet caulk does not work well moreso cheap wet caulk.


Just which planet is it you come from?
It must be a desert planet
with winter monsoons.
This guy is where there is humidity in summer
and cold enough to require *heat* to bring it up to 50º now.
In this part of the world 
you have it completely bassackwards.


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## sjm

neolitic said:


> Just which planet is it you come from?
> It must be a desert planet
> with winter monsoons.
> This guy is where there is humidity in summer
> and cold enough to require *heat* to bring it up to 50º now.
> In this part of the world
> you have it completely bassackwards.


Pay attention before acting like a fool,nowhere in my post was I factoring in humidity,my post was in reply to the guy who said cold is the problem and causing shrinkage,which if you had a clue you would know cold does not make wood shrink.

For the record I live in se PA,we get quite abit of heat and humidity,done plenty of painting NEVER have I had to turn my ac on because trim was shrinking NEVER and guess what never went back because my caulk job failed,amazing what a top quality tube,applied right and giving proper amount of dry time can do.


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## neolitic

Summer = high humidity.
Winter = low humidity.
Whether you "factor" it in or not.


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## XanadooLTD

Tom F. said:


> I'm a GC/spec builder. I've got three new houses that I can't sell. They all have finger jointed pine 6" crown molding throughout. They have been finished since the middle of summer. Being complete, I have no reason to visit the houses but maybe every couple weeks. I was there today, and found that in two of the three houses the caulk has cracked at the ceiling joint, almost 100%, throughout the houses. The heat has been set at 50 degrees in all three houses for months.
> 
> What causes this?
> What is the appropriate fix?
> How do I stop this from happening again?
> 
> The two houses with the problem are conventionally framed. The crown was professionally hung, with blocking where necessary. (By me). These two houses were painted by the same contractor, who has done a very professional job on all aspects, as far as I am concerned. The third house, which is still holding up well, was done by another painter, and is 12 months old now. I am not looking to lay blame, just fix the problem and prevent it from reoccurring on future projects.
> 
> Any ideas would be appreciated.


 
If the house settled or if the nails didn't hold up in the crown the crown itself could have fallen causing a break in the molding.


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## Tom F.

The crown did not move from gravity. It is securely fastened. If the house had settled I would see the problem in only specific areas, not throughout the houses. The caulk failed. It is just a question of why, and what is the proper fix.

It would be great if one of you experts would suggest a specific brand and type of caulk. I buy mostly SW products. Do they offer a specific formulation you would suggest for this?


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## neolitic

I've had no problems with the 
50yr (40?) Alex.


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## KellyPainting

Never touch anything below 35 yr caulk....anything less has failed me before.

What everyone is overlooking is that they caulked and never even painted it.
So mistakes happened before the caulking even failed. But I do also believe the 
caulking was junk....I actually explain the types of caulking I can use when doing a historic restoration.... I let the customer decide what level it is brought to.
I've spent $100 a case for good stuff and went thru a few cases, so i need to know before I bid.


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## slickshift

Tom F. said:


> ...the caulk has cracked at the ceiling joint, almost 100%, throughout the houses. The heat has been set at 50 degrees in all three houses for months.
> 
> What causes this?
> What is the appropriate fix?
> How do I stop this from happening again?
> 
> I am ...looking to ...fix the problem and prevent it from reoccurring on future projects.
> 
> Any ideas would be appreciated.





Tom F. said:


> The caulk was a Sherwin williams product, but I do not recall which....


Knowing the exact product is crucial to troubleshooting this problem

For all we know they put windshield washer fluid in your engine oil fill tube and we're trying to figure out why your engine seized up


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## Tom F.

Kelly, you must have missed my follow up post where I corrected myself about the sequence of application. The caulking was done prior to the final coats of paint for the trim. But thanks for the other advice so far... All have been helpful.


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## Tom F.

Slick, I understand your point, but surely the GCs you work for do not keep up with the exact materials you use on a daily basis. That is why we try to hire professional subs. I know it was a SW product, but as I am not ISO 9000 certified (joke), I dont' know the exact flavor of caulk. I can and will call my painting contractor, but not until I have enough education to discuss the problems cause and solutions.


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## KellyPainting

Tom F. said:


> Kelly, you must have missed my follow up post where I corrected myself about the sequence of application. The caulking was done prior to the final coats of paint for the trim. But thanks for the other advice so far... All have been helpful.




Sorry, ya I did...so much to read...sometimes I just skip a few.


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## KnHProperties

My soulution to your problem.

Heat the house to at least 62 degrees 
Have humidity in the house about 38-40%
Watch and see if cracks go away in about a 7-10 days.
If they don't recaulk and repaint if neccessary.


Any one dissagree?


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## KellyPainting

Can't hurt...but I think you'll be caulking either way.


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## neolitic

Unless it's heated, I'd bet they come back 
no matter, when someone moves in
and cranks it clear up to 74º next winter!

And A/C on this summer too.


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## orson

This is just my opinion not backed up by scientific research, but I do not think 50 degrees is cold enough to cause excessive cracking in caulk on crown. It is a moisture issue plain and simple. Incidentaly, do you have many nail pops on the ceiling? The drywall could have had too high a moisture content when it was hung and has finaly dried out and shrunk. If it was properly glued it would shrink towards the joists above rather than towards the heads of the fasteners holding it on.

www.rubycon.us
Ruby Construction LLC 
Lancaster Kitchen Remodeling
Lancaster Bathroom Remodeling


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## neolitic

It isn't just temperature.
Temperature and humidity/moisture content
are related.


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## American Paint

KnHProperties said:


> IMHO 50 is way too cold to keep a house. I bet ALL of the trim has opened up. Heat the house and get some humidity (like 40 % )in there will solve most of the problems. The wood has shrunk, caulk was fine, it can only do so much.
> I bet if you ask a Sherwin Williams they will sell you anything to get you out of the store.
> 
> You are trying a wrong fix forget about the caulk and heat the house.


Exactly!!!! I bet the beed of caulk is still there tightly on the wall or the wood and is within 10 % of its original size. It aint gona Shrink a 1/8 or a 1/4 in.
It is the wood drying out and must reach its "moisture Equilibrium" 1 year.:thumbsup: AP.


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## Tom R

Not sure how these houses were built, - - but sounds like the real problem may be 'truss uplift'. 

The only way around this in the future is to have your crown attached to blocking, - - which is attached to the ceiling only.

Then the crown will just slide up and down the wall during seasonal movement of the trusses.


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## mrpaintguy

cut out the failed caulk -sw junk. Recaulk with either #1 Best "Big Stretch" by Sashco or #2nd best "Infinity" by lighthouse(GE Co.) These products can better withstand the movement of the surfaces. Also be sure to "fill" inside the joint for best adhesion , dont just cover the gap with too thin a bead. 
:thumbup:


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## BCPNJ

I know humidity,wood shrinkage,settlement, and temps play a role in shrinkage and cracking, esp. in new homes. 

When I paint a new crown I expect some areas to open up around 6-12 months later and explain that to the customer.That said it should'nt be more than 5% or so and I would be surprised at that much. In fact I've only been called back once and the culprit turned out to be a loose crown on one side, but I'm sure some of my other jobs opened a little but so little it wasn't noticeable. 

However, in the original post, the builder stated that all of it cracked. The only way that should have happened is if cheap stuff was used. All of it shouldn't have cracked even in the worst scenario. Even dumb luck would have kept a quater of it together.

I use phenoseal and hardly ever have an issue. I've used Alex 50yr. and it's my 2nd. choice caulk. I'm sure there are others that are good. Point is it has to be the best grade of a particular brand.

Make sure you push the caulk in w/the gun, not pull, and follow w/a wet clean rag to clean as well as to further push it in . A bead thats just thrown on top after painting is a slop job IMO.


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