# New kind of Pressure Treated wood



## karma_carpentry (Aug 7, 2005)

I was at a tradeshow for greenbuilding (the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association conference) and I saw a new kind of PT called TimberSIL. I talked with the rep and he said it was developed by a doctor who was concerned about the negative effects of copper-based PT (the now-banned CCA and ACQ).

I was really excited about it. It's not green-tinted - it's natural color wood. It's going to be available in the Boston area within a few months, I think. (For folks around here, it will be at Sterrit's, I think.)

It's made by pressure-infusing the wood with sodium silicate, same way the wood was treated with ACQ. But then it's heated to a certain temperature so the molecules of the sodium silicate bind together into larger crystals that are bound into the fibers of the wood. As far as I can figure, it infuses the wood with glassy / vitreous particles. I can understand why termites won't eat it, but I'm still waiting to be convined that it will resist fungus. The company says it is unrecognizable as a food source for fungus.

They'll start producing decking boards, and then roll in to framing lumber for the southern areas where formosan termites are a problem.

And it doesn't rot away iron and galvy fasteners.

Anyway, I'm excited about it. No, I don't get a kickback from the company - I'm just excited that there's a good rot-resistant lumber coming on that I will feel really good about working with. I hope it's priced like the old PT, not higher.

They also say it's fire-resistant. I wonder how rough it is on carbide saw blades.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

I too wonder about blades holding up, just imaging how hard the silica will be after heating, but assume the after market will deliver with a specialty blade if this new product takes off.

I can see a niche even if price for lumber is a touch higher since we can go back to traditional framing/assembly methods and well as hardware and components.

Will keep the eyes and ears peeled for this stuff!!:thumbsup:


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## Riversong (Mar 17, 2006)

TimberSIL sounds like good stuff, compared to the old CCA (which is phased out for residential use) and ACQ (which is the current market standard) and CA-B both of which can be corrosive to metal fasteners. 

But if you're wanting to build green, then other issues need to be considered, including:

- embodied energy: how much energy is used to "manufacture" and transport the material

- life-cycle environmental costs, including manufacture, transport, use, and disposal

- cost-benefit compared to other, more natural, products such as naturally-resistant woods

- avoiding rot and infestation problems with careful detailing and construction practices

- Robert


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## snapper21 (Mar 13, 2006)

Oh great,, so much for the gravy I was getting. After the discovery came out that the galvy's rotted I was able to pick up quite a few rehab jobs that paid well for the short time they took.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

You know this product is just another of the dozen other alternatives to ACQ right? 

The only thing I hope for is for one of the alternatives to take the lead of the others and become a viable alternative. Keep in mind how long of a lag there was between ACQ coming out and the current knowledge base that it has issues with galvanized products. How many projects were built in that lag time with galvanized fasteners? Every new alternative to ACQ has the same potential to develop 'issues' but they only surface with time. The whole preserved wood deal is a cluster f#ck and won't be solved by a new alternative to ACQ hitting the market every six months. The only thing that will solve it is for one of these alternatives to gain enough market share over the others so that it becomes viable for testing and some official results that you can base your reputation on get established.

What do you think of that?


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## karma_carpentry (Aug 7, 2005)

I agree with you Mike. I want the product to get into the field so the real problems with it get discovered and either solved or end up being a dealbreaker for this product.

What are the alternatives to ACQ you have in mind for rot and insect resistant lumber, other than using naturally resistant species? And aside from borates.

Riversong, I totally agree with you on the importance of considering many other facets of building green aside from using so-called 'green' products. Knowing useful products is important but it's definitely a holistic philosophy, not a plug and play concept.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

karma_carpentry said:


> What are the alternatives to ACQ you have in mind for rot and insect resistant lumber, other than using naturally resistant species? And aside from borates.


I don't have any, that's beyond my scope of expertise. I'm just waiting for the day for all of this to shake itself out.


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## Riversong (Mar 17, 2006)

karma_carpentry said:


> What are the alternatives to ACQ


Well, there's pentachlorophenol and creosote, but I wouldn't recommend them. 

This is what we used to work with:
A CCA deck just 8 feet x 10 feet contains more than 1 1/3 pounds of arsenic. 
A single 12-foot-long 2x6 has enough to kill 250 adults were they to ingest it. 
30 million pounds of arsenic per year in the US have been eliminated since the ban on residential CCA.

The commercial options are ACQ and CA-B. While they're both corrosive to metal, they're supposed to be OK with hot-dipped galvy or SS. CA seems to be both safer to use and more ecological than ACQ.

Other options are composite (plastic/fiber) wood substitutes, though some might contain PVC which is the most pervasive toxic substance in consumer products and worth avoiding (not in use, but the production and disposal produces dioxins). Any made with HDPE is basically recycled milk bottles and a good use of waste.

Then there boron in dry applications. And, of course, the naturally resistant woods (but it's only the heartwood that's resistant!).

- Robert


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## AndyJones (Mar 9, 2006)

dont hold your breath on this stuff, it has yet to satisfy the EPA. All of these pressure treated products have to satisfy the EPA, and unlike ACQ and CA, timbersil has been dodging them for a while. finally caught up to them this week, and EPA has told them to cease production and distribution unitl told otherwise.


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## karma_carpentry (Aug 7, 2005)

Thanks for the heads up on that.

Hopefully it will only be a short-term hurdle. Sodium silicate is recognized as a safe substance by the EPA, and even food-safe by the FDA (when it's bound).


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

The use of sodium silicate as a timber treatment for pressure-treated wood actually began some time in the 19th century. It is suggested as an alternative for using silicate of potash (Potasium Siliacte), but that it is more expensive in a book called "Handy Farm Devices and How to Make Them" by Rolfe Cobleigh, published in 1910. Its use has become popular again in 2005, when an environmental scientist developed a method for rendering sodium silicate insoluable once the lumber has been treated with it. This treatment preserves wood from moisture and insects and possesses some flame-retardant properties. Sodium silicate treated lumber is considered a safer alternative to chromated copper arsenate (CCA), restricted by the EPA in 2004, and alkaline copper quaternary (ACQ), which corrodes non-galvanized nails and screws - Wikpedia

One more note on sodium silicate it was used in the early 20th century to preserve eggs for up to 9 months


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## bridgman (Apr 24, 2006)

*Epa*

Epa


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## bob the builder (Oct 6, 2005)

bridgman said:


> _Again, please post where this EPA rumor started, if anyone out there knows._


My guess for Andy's comment is silicosis. Edited, didn't notice it was an old post.
Silicosis is a respiratory disease caused by inhalation of silica dust, which leads to inflammation and scarring of the lung tissue.

Three types of silicosis are seen:

*Simple chronic silicosis* -- results from long-term exposure (more than 20 years) to low amounts of silica dust. Nodules of chronic inflammation and scarring provoked by the silica dust form in the lungs and chest lymph nodes. This disease may feature breathlessness and may resemble chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD). 
Accelerated silicosis -- occurs after exposure to larger amounts of silica over a shorter period of time (5 - 15 years). Inflammation, scarring, and symptoms progress faster in accelerated silicosis than in simple silicosis. 
*Acute silicosis* -- results from short-term exposure to very large amounts of silica. The lungs become very inflamed and may fill with fluid, causing severe shortness of breath and low blood oxygen levels. 
Progressive massive fibrosis may occur in simple or accelerated silicosis, but is more common in the accelerated form. Progressive massive fibrosis results from severe scarring and leads to obliteration of normal lung structures.

Causes, incidence, and risk factors Return to top 

Silica is a common, naturally-occurring crystal. It is found in most rock beds and forms dust during mining, quarrying, tunneling, and work with many metal ores. Silica is a main component of sand, so glass workers and sand-blasters also receive heavy exposure to silica.

Risk factors include any work that includes exposure to silica dust. Mining, stone cutting, quarrying, road and building construction, work with abrasives manufacturing, sand blasting and many other occupations and hobbies involve exposure to silica.

Intense exposure to silica may result in disease in a year or less, but it usually takes at least 10 or 15 years of exposure before symptoms develop. Silicosis has become less common since the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) instituted regulations requiring the use of protective equipment which limit the amount of silica dust inhaled.


People with silicosis are at high risk for developing tuberculosis (TB). Silica is believed to interfere with the body's immune response to the bacteria that causes TB. Yearly skin testing to check for exposure to TB is recommended. Treatment with anti-TB drugs is recommended for people with a positive skin test. Any change in the appearance of the chest x-ray may indicate TB.


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## bridgman (Apr 24, 2006)

*Epa*

Epa


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2006)

*Good luck finding TimberSIL*

abc


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## karma_carpentry (Aug 7, 2005)

Mr Meanor, thanks for this update.

What kinds of quality issues - was it in Huttig's production process, or was it in the nature of the product itself - some problem with the process of infusing sodium silicate into the wood?


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2006)

abc


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## karma_carpentry (Aug 7, 2005)

Thanks for the further details. Yes, please keep us updated if you learn more. What are your sources on this? Are you close to people involved? I didn't find anything in the news about it.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2006)

abc


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## Deck & Fence Co (Aug 7, 2007)

*Question*

Hi Karma,
Is this TimberSil wood still on hold for production? I did a search and found thier web site, it didn't really show any testing by the FDA or any Independent test labs.This stuff don't sound to safe? Any comments?


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