# Protecting wires in a 2x4 wall from nails



## 232323 (Mar 31, 2008)

I'm remodeling an old house including all new wiring. The boxes the electricians are using are 3-3/4" deep. With just a 2x4 wall, the backs of these boxes are within 1/4" of the exterior wall sheathing. I'm concerned that when I reside it will be very easy to shoot a nail through one of these wires. Your siding nails should penetrate the stud by 1" which could put them in the electrical box or wiring by 3/4" if we happen to just miss the stud. Any suggestions out there before we start siding? The walls aren't sheetrocked yet, so I have access. Maybe gluing an thin iron plate behind each box? Probably a better idea out there. Thanks.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Are your driving nails by hand or with pneumatic tools?


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## 232323 (Mar 31, 2008)

Pneumatic. Getting too old to hand drive. We've used the metal clips to protect the wires from the interior, but I've never seen anything to protect the wires/box from siding nails. Obviously these boxes are generally used for a 2x6 wall so this is an unique situation.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Just slow down a bit when doing the siding, and nail into the studs. :thumbsup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

not unique at all,i see it all the time on new construction they should have a plate behind them imo

go around the house and mark where these boxes are on the outside wall


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## VNativo (Dec 20, 2010)

Can you mark the sheathing from the exterior generally where these boxes are? Maybe you can spray or mark circles at these boxes so when the siding guys come in, the know something us there. Definitely not fool proof, but a suggestion. But I do have a question, why are these boxes so deep?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

232323 said:


> Pneumatic. Getting too old to hand drive. We've used the metal clips to protect the wires from the interior, but I've never seen anything to protect the wires/box from siding nails. Obviously these boxes are generally used for a 2x6 wall so this is an unique situation.



There is no such thing as a box designed for a 2x4 stud, or a 2x6 stud. They're designed for a certain amount of cubic inches.... each conductor in the box, as well as the device, requires so many cubic inches.

(See how EASY electrical is?!?!?!)

Nail plates aren't going to stop air-driven nails.... they'll go right through the 1/16" steel in a heartbeat.

Have your electrician keep all the cables from entering the KO next to the stud. Tell him you require him to use the further KOs, like this:










Also, require him to 'megger' the wires immediately after rough-in, as well is prior to trim, to detect any damage that may have occured between the two. If your electrician doesn't have a 'megger', tell him he's not a real electrician until he gets one and knows how to use it. If he doesn't, I'd recommend finding another electrician who does.

(See how EASY electrical is?!?!?!)​


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

so theres no sense in plating anything on the exterior wall sparky?or maybe plates should be 1/8''


see how easy siding is?:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> so theres no sense in plating anything on the exterior wall sparky?



"Anything" leaves a lot of interpretation. If there's a 3" vent in a 2x4 stud cavity, sure, you'd want to plate it. But I prefer to do my installs so I don't have to worry about spend extra time & money installing tons of plates. Besides, how do I install them when the sheathing is already on the exterior?



tomstruble said:


> see how easy siding is?:laughing:


Yep... siding it easy........ "F*#& the electrician!"


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i don't know:blink:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

480sparky said:


> "F*#& the electrician!"


 

oh...my...god your serious??:laughinglease

how about you the guy doing the impossible go around and make sure the product you install is protected


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> oh...my...god your serious??:laughinglease



I'm dead serious. I truly believe that every other trade..... plumber, framer, trim carpenter, roofer, landscaper, excavator, drywaller, painter, mason, tile setter, countertop installer, carpet layer.... that's the *first thing* they are taught......... "F*#& the electrician!"


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

that's b-ull****,i think you got a mental issue now:blink:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

You think I'm kidding?











NOW what is b-ull****?​


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

that says nothing of most of the guys on here and you know it,like i said you should take more responsibilty for protecting your work if this is what you find all the time


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

480sparky said:


> You think I'm kidding
> 
> 
> NOW what is b-ull****?​ [/CENTER]



Well atleast you know your nail plates wont fall off!:laughing:



Dave


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> that says nothing of most of the guys on here and you know it,like i said you should take more responsibilty for protecting your work if this is what you find all the time



"Most guys on here" don't work in my area, and, while 'most guys on here' are real stand-up type of people, the vast majority of those out there aren't like 'most guys on here'.

Sorry to come off so sour, but no matter _what_ I do, someone's gonna screw up my work... nail plates or not. If I were to install thicker nail plates, someone will rip them off because, "They'll make a bump in the sheetrock," or "It'll make the siding ripple!"

THAT'S why I meg all my installs immediately after rough-in, and it's the first thing I do when I return to trim out. It allows me to identify where the problems are so I can dig them out, correct them, then send the bill to the appropriate sub.


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## dprimc (Mar 13, 2009)

I'd fire anyone nailing that H3 through the nail plates. And I'd dock his pay for the time to fix it. Anyone allowing that kind of crap is a hack plain and simple.

Flip the stupid thing over and nail to the other side!!! 

If I was a sparky, I be pissed at that as well.


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## 232323 (Mar 31, 2008)

Yes, using the knockout further from the stud would have made sense to me, but that wasn't done in most cases. The other problem with these deep boxes on 2x4 walls is they leave no room to insulate. We use to have about an 1" or so for stuffing...now there isn't any room left.


480sparky said:


> There is no such thing as a box designed for a 2x4 stud, or a 2x6 stud. They're designed for a certain amount of cubic inches.... each conductor in the box, as well as the device, requires so many cubic inches.
> 
> (See how EASY electrical is?!?!?!)
> 
> ...


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

Its a shame in cheap new construction, I don't thing anyone cares! Thats why I really don't do any new work. 


I'm not taking any sides:laughing: I just figure this story fits this thread!

A job i was on a year or so ago. The siding guys put a nail right through the 4/0 SE cable the nail connected both hots and the ground. When the power company came and put the meter in it blew up right in his face! 

I could go on for a while about all the other stuff the subs left hanging, I really didn't care though I was the guy thta got paid to finish and fix everything:laughing:


Dave


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i think it was the siding is easy comment that set me off:notworthy


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Our codes are getting so that we have no choice but to use deep boxes. That or use 4" sq metal boxes and rings, but that is way more work and more expensive.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

tomstruble said:


> i think it was the siding is easy comment that set me off:notworthy


Not to sound arrogant, but siding IS easy compared to electrical, plumbing or HVAC. 
Have you sen the size of our code books?


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

tomstruble said:


> i think it was the siding is easy comment that set me off:notworthy



My local home crepot makes it easy with their friendly knowledgeable staff and great prices on high quality materials! "you can do it we can help" Anyone can do it!:laughing:



Dave


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Not to sound arrogant, but siding IS easy compared to electrical, plumbing or HVAC.
> Have you sen the size of our code books?


 

yea i know.... it's a piece of cake:thumbup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Not to sound arrogant


your absolutely right Petey:thumbsup:
i for one never heard of an arrogant electrician:no::surrender:


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> Not to sound arrogant, but siding IS easy compared to electrical, plumbing or HVAC.
> Have you sen the size of our code books?


Not to sound naive, but who was the better craftsman and had the harder job on a victorian house with knob and tube wiring.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

Question for all the sparkies...

Is there a new work equivalent for these?:

This picture is kind of hard to see, but the right side of the box wraps behind the drywall so only a 'single gang' sticks out of the wall, but it's like a 'two gang' capacity (the back is kind of rounded so maybe it's more like 1.5 gang capacity, lol...but anyhow)


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I was amazed when i 1st started doing siding years ago, i had already worked for another electrician for many years so i knew about nails piercing wires in the walls. I asked the contractor that i was working with if he ever thought about hitting wires and he replied "its never happened". He had us using 3" nails going through 1" foam and 1" board siding leaving 1" of nail protruding. Most older homes are only 2X4 walls and we all know BX wire is never run straight in these older homes so knowing where the wire is located is just impossible. I was always just waiting to see/hear an electrical arc from hitting a wire.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

jmiller said:


> Not to sound naive, but who was the better craftsman and had the harder job on a victorian house with knob and tube wiring.



Hmmmm. Lessee here.

Electrician: "I want outlets and lights in every room. I don't want all my expensive wallpaper, crown moulding and baseboards torn up." So we get it done without punching holes in the walls.....age and condition of the house is not a consideration when wiring to the Code.

Roofer: Set up a ladder and start laying shingles on the wide-open, 100% accessible roof.



Gee, that's a tough one.:blink:


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Back on the original subject, though we use stucco (lath) here instead of siding the issue still exists with the lath nails. The lath gets installed before the insulation is installed. I check behind each outside wall box prior to insulating.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

tomstruble said:


> yea i know.... it's a piece of cake:thumbup:





jmiller said:


> Not to sound naive, but who was the better craftsman and had the harder job on a victorian house with knob and tube wiring.


How did I know what I said would be taken out of context? 
Read what I said: _"...siding IS easy *compared* to electrical, plumbing or HVAC".
_I didn't flat out say siding was "easy". I've done quite a bit of siding and I know what a challenge it can be.





tomstruble said:


> your absolutely right Petey:thumbsup:
> i for one never heard of an arrogant electrician:no::surrender:


Well that's your fault then. You cold have been one of us. :thumbsup:


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## Security101 (Aug 11, 2008)

How bout this:

Go around from _inside_ and drive a sinker through the sheathing directly above the boxes. When back outside just find them, pound them back in, and mark the area or just be careful right there. 

IDK I'm just an alarm guy... :whistling

Jim


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

I shouldn't have edited my post, because I deleted the sentence 'at what point did it change?'. 

I agree with you guys that the electrical rabbit hole is way deeper than siding. But in the old days when siding was still a craft on some houses in particular, the wiring of the house was a rather crude task.

These days it's the opposite. The siding is usually generic, and the electrical code book supplants the phone book as booster chair.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

jmiller said:


> I shouldn't have edited my post, because I deleted the sentence 'at what point did it change?'.
> 
> I agree with you guys that the electrical rabbit hole is way deeper than siding. But in the old days when siding was still a craft on some houses in particular, the wiring of the house was a rather crude task.
> 
> These days it's the opposite. The siding is usually generic, and the electrical code book supplants the phone book as booster chair.


When I was a kid, it took an act of Congress, a Presidential proclamation, and a Papal bull to get a second phone book, and that's only if you had two phones in your house.

Today, a new phone book shows up at my door every three weeks. And they're still free

The NEC, on the other hand, used to fit in a shirt pocket. Now it can beat the crap out of any phone book, and costs the better part of a hundred bucks.

The times, they are a-changin'.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

OK then. So long as we agree that residential siding _can_ be as 'hard' as residential electrical. It's not required by code, but some sloppy stuff gets done to this day on either end.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

after reading some of my post i'm sorry for the way i responded,i forgot i was talking to my buddy sparky480:notworthy

I was up late talking with Cole about flashlights and lumens:blink: and was alittle grumpy


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I think we should throw the siders and electrician's both under the bus.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I think we should throw the siders and electrician's both under the bus.



And the first thing you'll do tomorrow is ***** there's no power for your saws. :thumbup:


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

You guys are amateurs compared to the plumbers....glad this wasn't about them. :laughing:


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

480sparky said:


> You think I'm kidding?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The bullsh/t is that the sparky didn't center his NM! I'd put my hanger nails right through it too just to teach him a lesson! F$^% the electrician!


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Remodelor said:


> The bullsh/t is that the sparky didn't center his NM! I'd put my hanger nails right through it too just to teach him a lesson! F$^% the electrician!


I hope you're being facetious. 
If not then I'll hold my comments since I like it here and don't want to get banned. :whistling


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Remodelor said:


> The bullsh/t is that the sparky didn't center his NM! I'd put my hanger nails right through it too just to teach him a lesson! F$^% the electrician!



And I'll just back-charge you for the repair.


Ever think that I _couldn't _center the drill?


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

I eat backcharges for breakfast.

For the record I am being facetious. Did that actually happen to you personally 480? I have a hard time conjuring an image of someone that would be dumb enough to even attempt to nail through a steel plate into romex like that, let alone follow through with it. I mean, I get it, that specific hurricane clip can't be reversed, but you just note that one and go get a left-sided clip later on.

Edit: Wait, it can be reversed, it just won't be completely symmetrical. My spacial thinking isn't working very well.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

No, not even the insulator is immune to the "F*#& the electrician" syndrome.

Replacing devices in a 15-y.o. house to fancy Lutron custom stuff today. All the boxes in the outside walls were filled with freakin' expanding foam.




























*ing insulators!*​


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

480, you got those out pretty cleanly. Whenever I have run into that, I ended up breaking the devices into little pieces to get them out.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> 480, you got those out pretty cleanly. Whenever I have run into that, I ended up breaking the devices into little pieces to get them out.



This was the only one I was able to get out in one piece. All the others were destroyed. I think it's only because it wasn't as packed full as the rest of 'em.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Well they were insulated well. No heat loss there :laughing:


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

On new construction, I plan my layout to use the shallowest box possible on exterior walls. That is, most (if not all) boxes in exterior walls have just one NM cable in it and I can use the smallest readily available box (usually 18 cu. in.). They actually make smaller boxes but the 18 cu. in. box allows for _some_ insulation behind it. I've never given much thought to siding nails or brick tie nails getting into the wiring. My main consideration is insulation integrity. Most of my fellow electricians buy only the 23 cu. in. boxes the OP mentioned and use them everywhere.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Most jobs i have ever been on it was always F*%@ the electrician and the plumber. Foam inside the boxes??? Never seen that yet and i hope i dont.


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## Bweikel (Feb 20, 2011)

jmiller said:


> Not to sound naive, but who was the better craftsman and had the harder job on a victorian house with knob and tube wiring.


You ever see a Victorian in San Fran. You know how much work and cutting goes into the ext trim work or how about the poor bastards that had to nail up the wood lath on the int walls.


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## Bweikel (Feb 20, 2011)

480sparky said:


> And the first thing you'll do tomorrow is ***** there's no power for your saws. :thumbup:


Lmao :clap clap:


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

I have seen people go crazy with that expanding foam, but never like that. Some of that foam is flammable right?

I had a job earlier last summer, HO had family member install perhung door. Serveral days later she cant figure out why the door will not close right. I pop the casing trim off. The entire right side, Latching side, filled with foam. The hinge side filled with 100% silcone. I advised her the door would be destroyed coming out. She didnt want to replace a brand new door. I didnt want to sit there digging all that junk out. I adjust the strike plate and that was that. The reveals were off. But i wasnt there all day to try to fix a 180 door.


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