# Why does code note require gfci breakers on electric water heaters?



## bob_cntrctr

Riddle me this:

We require gfci outlets when electricity is available within 3-feet of water, so why don't electric water heaters, where an electric element is permanently and fully immersed in water, require gfci breakers?


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## bwalley

bob_cntrctr said:


> Riddle me this:
> 
> We require gfci outlets when electricity is available within 3-feet of water, so why don't electric water heaters, where an electric element is permanently and fully immersed in water, require gfci breakers?


I have never heard of a case where an electric water heater failing has electrocuted anyone, but you do have a good point.


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## 480sparky

How often does someone complete an electrical circuit between a water heater and ground?

The difference between the electricity available in your kitchen or bathroom is that you are plugging something into a receptacle. And what you plug in may or may not have a fault in it. If it does, the GFI will detect that fault and disconnect power.

If the heating elements are in direct contact with the water, then would not that create a ground fault and trip the breaker? Then you would only have a large water storage tank.

I think you're trying to apply the old-wives' tale of "Electricity and water don't mix" to an appliance that contains water and has electricity suplied tot it. But what about the ice maker in your fridge? Your garbage disposal in the sink? Your washing machine? Dishwasher? Aren't all these items connected to both water and electricity? Do you GFI them?


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## bob_cntrctr

Sparky,

I'm just sayin' I'm not sure I see the difference between a blown insulator on a water heater element and a hair dryer in the bathtub.

As for the rest of those appliance, you're generally not standing in the water of your dishwasher to be the link that completes the circuit, no?


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## 480sparky

bob_cntrctr said:


> Sparky,
> 
> I'm just sayin' I'm not sure I see the difference between a blown insulator on a water heater element and a hair dryer in the bathtub.
> 
> As for the rest of those appliance, you're generally not standing in the water of your dishwasher to be the link that completes the circuit, no?


The difference between the water heater element and the hairdryer in the bathtub is with the hairdryer, it is easily to become part of the circuit between it and ground. How often does a person, under ordinary, every-day circumstances, get near anything electrical that's sealed inside a water heater when it is energized? Just as often as all the other appliances I listed. 

If you're not standing in water when you're operating your dishwasher, garbage disposal, fridge or washing machine, then you're probably not the type that will be standing in water when you're operating your water heater.


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## Speedy Petey

bob_cntrctr said:


> We require gfci outlets when electricity is available within 3-feet of water,...


Who requires this?


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## bob_cntrctr

480sparky said:


> How often does a person, under ordinary, every-day circumstances, get near anything electrical that's sealed inside a water heater when it is energized?


Everytime you wash your hands under running warm water or take a shower, there's a direct line of water between you and the heating element.

Think of it like this - would you do this? : put a hair dryer in a plastic bag and plug it in and turn it on. Now put it and your hands under the water running out of the bathroom sink tap. Same thing. You're depending on the platsic bag, or the heater element jacket, to keep the electrical part out of the water your hands are in. No?


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## 480sparky

bob_cntrctr said:


> Everytime you wash your hands under running warm water or take a shower, there's a direct line of water between you and the heating element.
> 
> Think of it like this - would you do this? : put a hair dryer in a plastic bag and plug it in and turn it on. Now put it and your hands under the water running out of the bathroom sink tap. Same thing. You're depending on the platsic bag, or the heater element jacket, to keep the electrical part out of the water your hands are in. No?


So you're saying it's possible for electricity to travel fom your water heater, through the pipes, out the faucet, down the stream of water, through you, then.......... where?

The difference between the hair dryer and your water heater is that the hair dryer is SEPERATED from a potential ground source (usually the pipes that carry the water). And if the hair dryer has a fault in it, YOU become a potential circuit. But a water heater has both the source of electricity and a ground within the same enclosure, so electricity isn't going to travel up the pipes and into your bathroom and to the faucet and through the water, then through you, and then back to the water heater through the pipe. A single pipe cannot be the supply and return path for the electricity any more than a single conductor can supply the hair dryer and provide a return path.

Of course, this is assuming a metal plumbing system such as copper or galvanized pipe. Pex systems are basically plastic, and therefore are insulators. And water isn't really a good conductor either.


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## Speedy Petey

bob_cntrctr said:


> Everytime you wash your hands under running warm water or take a shower, there's a direct line of water between you and the heating element.


I truly hope you are not implying that the water will conduct electricity that far. :laughing:


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## Speedy Petey

bob_cntrctr said:


> Think of it like this - would you do this? : put a hair dryer in a plastic bag and plug it in and turn it on. Now put it and your hands under the water running out of the bathroom sink tap. Same thing. You're depending on the platsic bag, or the heater element jacket, to keep the electrical part out of the water your hands are in. No?


I am really not sure why, but you are looking for a problem where NONE exists. :no:


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## protechplumbing

I have.



bwalley said:


> I have never heard of a case where an electric water heater failing has electrocuted anyone, but you do have a good point.


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## 480sparky

protechplumbing said:


> I have.


"Details, Bob..... details!"
------George Malley (John Travolta) to Dr. Bob Neidorf (Brent Spiner), _Phenomenon_, 1996


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## protechplumbing

Top element was shorted out. Neither the heater nor the water distribution system was grounded. Guy touched the shower valve and got juiced with 120v. He was ok though.


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## 480sparky

protechplumbing said:


> Top element was shorted out. Neither the heater nor the water distribution system was grounded. Guy touched the shower valve and got juiced with 120v. He was ok though.


Then he was not electrocuted.


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## protechplumbing

Well, he felt electricity flowing thru his body and there was in fact voltage present at the valve. How do you figure that he wasn't?


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## Celtic

protechplumbing said:


> Well, he felt electricity flowing thru his body and there was in fact voltage present at the valve. How do you figure that he wasn't?



When a person is "electrocuted" - they are dead.


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## protechplumbing

I was always under then impression that electrocution is when someone has electricity from flowing threw their body at a sufficient voltage and current to cause discomfort. If your definition is the correct one then when it is stated on the news that "a man died from electrocution" it is somewhat of a redundant statement no?


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## protechplumbing

I just looked it up and you are correct.

Let me correct my former statement: He was shocked when he grabbed the shower valve, he was ok though.


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## 480sparky

protechplumbing said:


> I was always under then impression that electrocution is when someone has electricity from flowing threw their body at a sufficient voltage and current to cause discomfort. If your definition is the correct one then when it is stated on the news that "a man died from electrocution" it is somewhat of a redundant statement no?


If you have electric current flowing through your body, you are experiencing _electrical shock_. If it is powerful enough, it kills you and the medical examiner puts _electrocution_ on your death certificate.

I don't recall anyone on death row being put in the chair and 'shocked' to death. :whistling


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## Celtic

protechplumbing said:


> I was always under then impression that electrocution is when someone has electricity from flowing threw their body at a sufficient voltage and current to cause discomfort. If your definition is the correct one then when it is stated on *the news *that "a man died from electrocution" it is somewhat of a redundant statement no?


Do you see the flaw in your post?

The "media" are not the experts.....what's tom'row's weather gonna be :laughing:
Do you see my point?



Here is quickee definition from wiki [feel free to check other sources if you wish]:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock


> An electric shock can occur upon contact of a human body with any source of voltage high enough to cause sufficient current through the muscles or hair. The minimum current a human can feel is thought to be about 1 milliampere (mA). The current may cause tissue damage or fibrillation if it is sufficiently high. *Death caused by an electric shock is referred to as electrocution. *Generally, currents approaching 100 mA are lethal if they pass through sensitive portions of the body.



This little graphic also helps to illustrate the point [and common misconception]:









http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/mshop/safety/safetelec.shtml

In the graphic, you will notice the word "electrocution" has been omitted - by error or design I do not know. You will see the words:
Severe Shock
Death

Clearly, there is measurable difference between these words.


Clearer?


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## Celtic

protechplumbing said:


> I just looked it up and you are correct.


TY
I'll leave my post up for others....I'm watching "Good Fellas" ~ so there's a bit of a lag effect :laughing:


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## macmikeman

When he touched that shower valve he was standing on some surface that helped to complete a circuit back to the voltage source somehow or other. He became part of that circuit, however limited by resistance enough that he only felt shock, it did not "electrocute" him. That person should have his dwelling checked for metal piping system bonding problems, even if he has had the element on his water heater repaired and there is no longer any fault current present on the water piping. However, with blown heater elements, there can be sometimes only a tiny fraction of current fault level, enough to get a shock, but not enough to trip the circuit breaker. A gfi in this case would actually be a pretty good way of preventing that scenerio. There is a proposal form in the back of every code book. Anybody can submit for a change. Go for it.


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## bwalley

bob_cntrctr said:


> *Everytime you wash your hands under running warm water or take a shower, there's a direct line of water between you and the heating element.*
> 
> Think of it like this - would you do this? : put a hair dryer in a plastic bag and plug it in and turn it on. Now put it and your hands under the water running out of the bathroom sink tap. Same thing. You're depending on the platsic bag, or the heater element jacket, to keep the electrical part out of the water your hands are in. No?


*Wrong*


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## protechplumbing

I agree. I did note on the invoice that there are serious electrical grounding issues and that he needs to call a licensed electrician to check the building's grounding system. I could have bonded the heater but I am not licensed nor insured to do electrical work so I referred that portion of the job out.



macmikeman said:


> When he touched that shower valve he was standing on some surface that helped to complete a circuit back to the voltage source somehow or other. He became part of that circuit, however limited by resistance enough that he only felt shock, it did not "electrocute" him. That person should have his dwelling checked for metal piping system bonding problems, even if he has had the element on his water heater repaired and there is no longer any fault current present on the water piping. However, with blown heater elements, there can be sometimes only a tiny fraction of current fault level, enough to get a shock, but not enough to trip the circuit breaker. A gfi in this case would actually be a pretty good way of preventing that scenerio. There is a proposal form in the back of every code book. Anybody can submit for a change. Go for it.


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## protechplumbing

How do ya figure bud?



bwalley said:


> *Wrong*


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## bwalley

protechplumbing said:


> Top element was shorted out. Neither the heater nor the water distribution system was grounded. Guy touched the shower valve and got juiced with 120v. He was ok though.


If the top element was shorted out, it would have tripped the breaker, it sounds like there was an open in it and he completed the circuit and that is how he got shocked.


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## protechplumbing

It would only trip the breaker if the heater was grounded. Since the heater was not grounded, the circuit was not complete and therefore no current could flow to trip the breaker. The circuit was only closed to ground when he touched the faucet that was attached to the heater via the potable water distribution system. The only path to ground was thru his body at that point.


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## tgeb

Celtic said:


> When a person is "electrocuted" - they are dead.


Maybe the term for someone who is not made dead should be "Electrified" ? :blink:



> Main Entry: elec·tri·fy
> Pronunciation: \i-ˈlek-trə-ˌfī, ē-ˈ\
> Function: transitive verb
> Inflected Form(s): elec·tri·fied; elec·tri·fy·ing
> Date: 1745
> 1 a : to charge with electricity b (1) : to equip for use of electric power (2) : to supply with electric power (3) : to amplify (music) electronically
> 2 : to excite intensely or suddenly <the news electrified the nation>


Just wondering, in case I need to know.


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## Celtic

tgeb said:


> Maybe the term for someone who is not made dead should be "Electrified" ? :blink:
> 
> 
> 
> Just wondering, in case I need to know.


"Electrified" is generally usually used to refer to something that is "designed" to carry electricity...like an electrified fence ~ people really aren't of this design.

The exception to the "rule" being things that are not designed to carry electricity, but sometimes do and are capable of carrying it ~ like water pipes, aluminum siding/gutters, etc.

"Shocked" is the correct term for a person who has come in contact with electrified apparatus.


Fair enough?


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## Speedy Petey

protechplumbing said:


> It would only trip the breaker if the heater was grounded. Since the heater was not grounded, the circuit was not complete and therefore no current could flow to trip the breaker. The circuit was only closed to ground when he touched the faucet that was attached to the heater via the potable water distribution system. The only path to ground was thru his body at that point.


So you think GFIs are the solution to poor, incorrect and dangerous installations? 
How about installing something correctly, safely and to code and we would NOT need anyone suggesting GFIs for water heaters. :whistling


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## Speedy Petey

bwalley said:


> *Wrong*


Yeah, I questioned that a couple of hours ago. No word on it yet. :whistling


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## 480sparky

protechplumbing said:


> It would only trip the breaker if the heater was grounded. Since the heater was not grounded, the circuit was not complete and therefore no current could flow to trip the breaker. The circuit was only closed to ground when he touched the faucet that was attached to the heater via the potable water distribution system. The only path to ground was thru his body at that point.


 
So where is the rest of the circuit? His body can't be the end of it. The electricity had to go somewhere.


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## Speedy Petey

protechplumbing said:


> How do ya figure bud?


How do YOU figure? You are the plumber. 
Are you actually suggesting the water in the pipes is a conductor???????
Please tell me you are not suggesting this. :blink:

The pipes themselves? Yes. 
The water? Come on now.


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## tgeb

Celtic said:


> Fair enough?


Yes Sir. :mellow:


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## Celtic

There was a case in Florida, a few years back, where a plumber or HVAC man was injured [maybe died???] due to contact w/electricity.

I think a dryer or washing machine was involved.

I cannot find the article.....anyone?


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## 480sparky

Water as an electrical conductor.


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## protechplumbing

I'm sorry, but exactly when did I suggest that a GFCI was the correct course of action to rectify the dangerous lack of bonding present?

What was needed was a bonding conductor running from the heater jacket to the building's grounding conductor.

How did you get off on that wild tangent?



Speedy Petey said:


> So you think GFIs are the solution to poor, incorrect and dangerous installations?
> How about installing something correctly, safely and to code and we would NOT need anyone suggesting GFIs for water heaters. :whistling


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## protechplumbing

No but his feet provide the path to ground.



480sparky said:


> So where is the rest of the circuit? His body can't be the end of it. The electricity had to go somewhere.


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## protechplumbing

There you go putting words in my mouth again. I never suggested anything of the sort. I was simply correcting bwalley on his statement about the water path.

There IS in fact a continuous path of water from the mans hands to the outer jacket of the heater element. That is what I was correcting bwalley on. At no point did I state or even insinuate that the water path it self was a viable path for the current to flow and cause an electrical shock (though I *WILL* do that now since you started down that road), I was merely correcting bwalley on the statement that "there is not a continuous path of water from his hands to the element jacket".

Now as far as the water being a conductor with a sufficient lack of electrical resistance as to allow enough current to flow so as to cause significant eletrical shock to the man, yes, that is possible. It will depend on the length of run through the water as well as the waters electrical conductivity (you do realize that it varies from source to source?). Another thing that you must consider is that the water lines were copper in that case so that the water's conductivity is more or less a mute point since it was a parallel circuit with a much higher ohm value than the copper pipe it self.



Speedy Petey said:


> How do YOU figure? You are the plumber.
> Are you actually suggesting the water in the pipes is a conductor???????
> Please tell me you are not suggesting this. :blink:
> 
> The pipes themselves? Yes.
> The water? Come on now.


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## 480sparky

protechplumbing said:


> No but his feet provide the path to ground.


 
What ground? How?


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## bwalley

protechplumbing said:


> It would only trip the breaker if the heater was grounded. Since the heater was not grounded, the circuit was not complete and therefore no current could flow to trip the breaker. The circuit was only closed to ground when he touched the faucet that was attached to the heater via the potable water distribution system. The only path to ground was thru his body at that point.


If the circuit was shorted, then it would have tripped the breaker even if the water heater wasn't grounded.

In this case it sounds like neither the water heater or the potable water distribution was grounded and there was leaking voltage.

A GFCI breaker in this case may not have corrected the bad installation.

If the element is leaking voltage to the water and the water heater and the potable water lines are properly grounded, it should trip the breaker or go to ground before going to a faucet as electricity will always take the path of least resistance.


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## protechplumbing

Really? Where did the current flow to after it exited the section of bad element?

FYI, the breaker usually does NOT trip when a heater blows an element. That is the whole reason for having the double poled high limit thermodisk in the upper thermostat. A blown element can in some cases cause the breaker to trip if there is a length of element short enough that is touching the element jacket it may have an ohm value low enough to trip that leg of the double pole breaker. Many times though the current isn't enough to trip the breaker and the blown element continuous to heat the water thru one side of the element until the water temperature rises to the point (160f) that the high limit thermodisk in the upper part of the upper thermostat opens both poles.

In case you are wondering, this isn't something that I read out of a book, it something that I have witnessed first hand several times when responding to a "no hot water" repair call.



bwalley said:


> *If the circuit was shorted, then it would have tripped the breaker even if the water heater wasn't grounded.*
> 
> In this case it sounds like neither the water heater or the potable water distribution was grounded and there was leaking voltage.
> 
> A GFCI breaker in this case may not have corrected the bad installation.
> 
> If the element is leaking voltage to the water and the water heater and the potable water lines are properly grounded, it should trip the breaker or go to ground before going to a faucet as electricity will always take the path of least resistance.


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## protechplumbing

Tub drain for one.



480sparky said:


> What ground? How?


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## 480sparky

protechplumbing said:


> Tub drain for one.


So it was an all-metal DWV system?


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## bwalley

protechplumbing said:


> Really? Where did the current flow to after it exited the section of bad element?
> 
> FYI, the breaker usually does NOT trip when a heater blows an element. That is the whole reason for having the double poled high limit thermodisk in the upper thermostat. A blown element can in some cases cause the breaker to trip if there is a length of element short enough that is touching the element jacket it may have an ohm value low enough to trip that leg of the double pole breaker. Many times though the current isn't enough to trip the breaker and the blown element continuous to heat the water thru one side of the element until the water temperature rises to the point (160f) that the high limit thermodisk in the upper part of the upper thermostat opens both poles.
> 
> In case you are wondering, this isn't something that I read out of a book, it something that I have witnessed first hand several times when responding to a "no hot water" repair call.


The high limit switch on the upper element is not meant to take care of electrical shorts, it is there in case the thermostat sticks and it keeps heating the water, it will then trip due to temperature.

I am sure you have seen some strange issues like this, my point is if the 120v line was shorted, it should have tripped the breaker or went to ground before the guy was shocked using the faucet in a kitchen.

Water heaters are grounded through the case as well as the water line, unless it is CPVC or pex, which is one of the bad things about non metalic water lines.


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## protechplumbing

I believe so. It's been a while though.



480sparky said:


> So it was an all-metal DWV system?


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## protechplumbing

I don't think you comprehended my previous posts. I'll give you a minute to go re-read all of them before I correct you. I'm trying to avoid talking in circles with you.



bwalley said:


> The high limit switch on the upper element is not meant to take care of electrical shorts, it is there in case the thermostat sticks and it keeps heating the water, it will then trip due to temperature.
> 
> I am sure you have seen some strange issues like this, my point is if the 120v line was shorted, it should have tripped the breaker or went to ground before the guy was shocked using the faucet in a kitchen.
> 
> Water heaters are grounded through the case as well as the water line, unless it is CPVC or pex, which is one of the bad things about non metalic water lines.


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## bwalley

protechplumbing said:


> I believe so. It's been a while though.


If it was a metal water line, why didn't the current go to ground before shocking the guy?

Even if it lost it's main ground, the water lines are usually grounded in more than one area.

If the water lines were run under the slab like most houses are, wouldn't that also act as a ground?


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## bwalley

protechplumbing said:


> I don't think you comprehended my previous posts. I'll give you a minute to go re-read all of them before I correct you. I'm trying to avoid talking in circles with you.


I am pretty sure I did comprehend what you are saying, I think you are just using the term "short" when you may have had leaking voltage.


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## protechplumbing

Post #13



bwalley said:


> If it was a metal water line, why didn't the current go to ground before shocking the guy?
> 
> Even if it lost it's main ground, the water lines are usually grounded in more than one area.
> 
> If the water lines were run under the slab like most houses are, wouldn't that also act as a ground?


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## protechplumbing

You are correct. Short is not the right term. I should have used th word "fault". I'll give you that.



bwalley said:


> I am pretty sure I did comprehend what you are saying, I think you are just using the term "short" when you may have had leaking voltage.


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## protechplumbing

I'm going to ask you a hypothetical question to illustrate my point. Lets say that I remove the wire connected to the un-switched side of the upper element and connect a new wire that is connected to ground. What will happen? Why?



bwalley said:


> If the circuit was shorted, then it would have tripped the breaker even if the water heater wasn't grounded.
> 
> In this case it sounds like neither the water heater or the potable water distribution was grounded and there was leaking voltage.
> 
> A GFCI breaker in this case may not have corrected the bad installation.
> 
> *If the element is leaking voltage to the water and the water heater and the potable water lines are properly grounded, it should trip the breaker or go to ground before going to a faucet as electricity will always take the path of least resistance*.


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## 480sparky

protechplumbing said:


> I believe so. It's been a while though.


I can't think of any other path. Unless he was standing on a tile floor that had an imbedded electric heat cable in it.

But just because someone comes in contact with an energized 'something' does not automatically mean they're going to get, or even feel, a shock.


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## protechplumbing

Agreed. The amount of shock felt will vary depending on the voltage and the resistance to ground.



480sparky said:


> I can't think of any other path. Unless he was standing on a tile floor that had an imbedded electric heat cable in it.
> 
> But just because someone comes in contact with an energized 'something' does not automatically mean they're going to get, or even feel, a shock.


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## bwalley

protechplumbing said:


> I'm going to ask you a hypothetical question to illustrate my point. Lets say that I remove the wire connected to the un-switched side of the upper element and connect a new wire that is connected to ground. What will happen? Why?


If you hook up a ground wire to the unswitched side, nothing will happen until the thermostat closes, then it will trip the breaker because 1 leg has a direct path to ground which is called a "Short".


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## protechplumbing

Incorrect


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## protechplumbing

120v will be applied to the 12.8 ohm (4500w) heater element and 18.75 amps will flow from one pole of the double pole 30 amps breaker thru the element to ground. Since only 18.75 amps is flowing it will not exceed the breakers 30 amp trip point and the current will continue to flow thru the element uninterrupted generating heat until the water is heated to the set point of the upper thermostat. At that point, the thermostat will reroute voltage to the lower thermostat away from the upper element and all heating from the upper element will cease.

Now that we have established that, let me go the next step and ask the question again but with a new twist this time:

_Let’s say that I remove the wire connected to the *switched* side of the upper element and connect a new wire that is connected to ground. What will happen? Why?_


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## bwalley

protechplumbing said:


> Incorrect


It will be a short circuit to ground.

I will test your theory on a water heater tommorow, and I guarantee you it will trip the breaker.


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## bwalley

protechplumbing said:


> 120v will be applied to the 12.8 ohm (4500w) heater element and 18.75 amps will flow from one pole of the double pole 30 amps breaker thru the element to ground. Since only 18.75 amps is flowing it will not exceed the breakers 30 amp trip point and the current will continue to flow thru the element uninterrupted generating heat until the water is heated to the set point of the upper thermostat. At that point, the thermostat will reroute voltage to the lower thermostat away from the upper element and all heating from the upper element will cease.
> 
> Now that we have established that, let me go the next step and ask the question again but with a new twist this time:
> 
> _*Let’s say that I remove the wire connected to the switched side of the upper element and connect a new wire that is connected to ground. What will happen? Why?* _


When the circuit is closed it will trip the breaker, again because the 120v line has a direct path to ground.


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## protechplumbing

You forget that I'm a local bud. If you really doubt these basic electrical concepts (ohms law) you aren't qualified to even comment on this thread.

There is no doubt in my mind that the breaker will NOT trip in that experiment. I am speaking from both an electrical theory stand point as well as 10 years of first hand experience servicing electric water heaters on an almost daily basis.

No one who has any experience/training servicing electric water heaters would debate what I just said. If you understood Ohm's law (the most basic electrical concept there is), you would not even need to waste your time with such an experiment. I'm not trying to insult you or make you feel dumb, it's just obvious to anyone who knows what's what that you are not schooled or vetted in this particular subject.

I'll just go ahead and answer my old hypothetical questions for tonight for the sake of educating anyone else who may be reading this thread.


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## protechplumbing

Incorrect again. It will not trip because the current must first flow thru the element to get to ground. The element has a resistance of 12.8. Since a voltage of 120v is being applied to a resistive element of 12.8ohms, a current of 18.75 amps will flow and that is not more than the 30 amp breaker. But wait there's more.....................................



bwalley said:


> When the circuit is closed it will trip the breaker, again because the 120v line has a direct path to ground.


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## bwalley

protechplumbing said:


> *You forget that I'm a local bud*. If you really doubt these basic electrical concepts (ohms law) you aren't qualified to even comment on this thread.
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind that the breaker will NOT trip in that experiment. I am speaking from both an electrical theory stand point as well as 10 years of first hand experience servicing electric water heaters on an almost daily basis.
> 
> No one who has any experience/training servicing electric water heaters would debate what I just said. If you understood Ohm's law (the most basic electrical concept there is), you would not even need to waste your time with such an experiment. I'm not trying to insult you or make you feel dumb, it's just obvious to anyone who knows what's what that you are not schooled or vetted in this particular subject.
> 
> I'll just go ahead and answer my old hypothetical questions for tonight for the sake of educating anyone else who may be reading this thread.


Do you want to come over to my house and try your theory and watch the breaker trip?

I live in Plant City which is very close to Lakeland where I think you are, I am between exit 19 and exit 17 off of I 4.

How much are you willing to bet?

Let me know and I will get you my address.


----------



## protechplumbing

Since the voltage is not coming from the switched side of the upper thermostat, the element will now heat (At a lower output than normal) higher then the thermostats set point (the thermostat only switches one of the two poles) and when the upper tank reaches a temperature of 160F degrees the high limit thermo disk will trip and cut all voltage to all thermostats and elements until manually reset (which will not fix the problem).

Are we up to speed on things? If you don't understand the basics I can't make you understand the next level.


----------



## protechplumbing

Sure, that could be arranged. I'll even bring the video cam so we can let every one watch on here. I'll wager $100 in cash.

PM me with the time and location and we can hook up and put this issue to rest.



bwalley said:


> Do you want to come over to my house and try your theory and watch the breaker trip?
> 
> I live in Plant City which is very close to Lakeland where I think you are, I am between exit 19 and exit 17 off of I 4.
> 
> How much are you willing to bet?
> 
> Let me know and I will get you my address.


----------



## protechplumbing

Tell ya what man. Keep your $100. I'll do it myself and you can just watch the video. I'll be right back.


----------



## protechplumbing

Here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCqw_Od1PPU

Give it a few minutes for youtube to process it.

If you are insistent on giving away $100 I'll still come over tomorrow and we can do it again on your heater.


----------



## JamesNLA

That is fantastic!!I think it's worth a hundred bucks.


----------



## JamesNLA

This comment right here is what has Mr. Walley off a bit


> Since a voltage of 120v is being applied to a resistive element of 12.8ohms


He is treating it like one leg off the breaker directly....it's just a resistor. The element that is. I understand what he is saying, but he has the concept of the actual element wrong.


----------



## ARealplumber

Are the plumbers having to give electrical lessons again??:w00t::clap::w00t:


----------



## Speedy Petey

protechplumbing said:


> I'm sorry, but exactly when did I suggest that a GFCI was the correct course of action to rectify the dangerous lack of bonding present?
> 
> What was needed was a bonding conductor running from the heater jacket to the building's grounding conductor.
> 
> How did you get off on that wild tangent?


No bud, no wild tangent. What was the topic/title of this thread again???

You are absolutely correct though and I was wrong. You did not suggest a GFI was the cure. I though that was being implied because of the topic.
My fault for assuming.


----------



## rbsremodeling

Who would have thought the day that 5 or 6 grown men have a discussion of facts. 

That the arguement would be settled on you tube. This is incredible.

From now on if you want to prove someone wrong on CT, you need a you tube clip of the facts.

No more of this he said she said crap:laughing:


----------



## bob_cntrctr

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/military.electrocutions/

"The report found that a water pump installed by military contractor KBR was not grounded, leading to Maseth's electrocution when it short-circuited. "

The water pump. Way back up the line from the water heater. Electrocuted through the shower.


----------



## Anti-wingnut

bob_cntrctr said:


> http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/military.electrocutions/
> 
> "The report found that a water pump installed by military contractor KBR was not grounded, leading to Maseth's electrocution when it short-circuited. "
> 
> The water pump. Way back up the line from the water heater. Electrocuted through the shower.


What KBR is doing in Afghanistan and Iraq has no bearing on this conversation. What is going on there is gross negligence and incompetence. 

Who really knows what is happening there? Plumbing is being used for ground, but is mistakenly being heated up. Any Handyman99 can go to work for KBR an electrician, and when the hooking up the right colors becomes difficult, they only have to do what is easy, because no one can "prove" otherwise.

This thread has become a three pronged conversation: 

(1) Is it a urban plumbing legend about someone getting shocked in the shower

(2) Is a hot water heater thermostat SPST or DPDT?

(3) Why isn't a GFCI required on a HWT? ( Answer, because it is redundant. It should be correctly grounded with a ground wire bundled with the conductors in conduit, NM, or MC, and ran all the way to the panel).


----------



## protechplumbing

See responses in red below



Anti-wingnut said:


> What KBR is doing in Afghanistan and Iraq has no bearing on this conversation. What is going on there is gross negligence and incompetence.
> 
> Who really knows what is happening there? Plumbing is being used for ground, but is mistakenly being heated up. Any Handyman99 can go to work for KBR an electrician, and when the hooking up the right colors becomes difficult, they only have to do what is easy, because no one can "prove" otherwise.
> 
> This thread has become a three pronged conversation:
> 
> (1) Is it a urban plumbing legend about someone getting shocked in the shower No, it isn't. I have personally seen it happen and found voltage at a shower faucet.
> 
> (2) Is a hot water heater thermostat SPST or DPDT? SPST
> 
> (3) Why isn't a GFCI required on a HWT? ( Answer, because it is redundant. It should be correctly grounded with a ground wire bundled with the conductors in conduit, NM, or MC, and ran all the way to the panel) Correct .


----------



## MacRoadie

rbsremodeling said:


> Who would have thought the day that 5 or 6 grown men have a discussion of facts.
> 
> That the arguement would be settled on you tube. This is incredible.


Just make sure you pick your skivvies up off the floor...:whistling


----------



## electricbygeorg

*To GFI or not to GFI*

I would not be surprised in the least if GFCI protection would be required on electric water heaters in the future. They're required on Hot Tubs, which is nothing more than an open water heater. Your swimming pool equipment has to have it. Just wait & see


----------



## bob_cntrctr

protechplumbing said:


> See responses in red below
> 
> (3) Why isn't a GFCI required on a HWT? ( Answer, because it is redundant. It should be correctly grounded with a ground wire bundled with the conductors in conduit, NM, or MC, and ran all the way to the panel) Correct .


 
Yes, "Should".

That's why they're called "ground *fault*".


----------



## bwalley

electricbygeorg said:


> I would not be surprised in the least if GFCI protection would be required on electric water heaters in the future. They're required on Hot Tubs, which is nothing more than an open water heater. Your swimming pool equipment has to have it. Just wait & see


hot tubs have pumps, lights and other controls in addition to the heater.


----------



## Celtic

electricbygeorg said:


> I would not be surprised in the least if GFCI protection would be required on electric water heaters in the future. They're required on Hot Tubs, which is nothing more than an open water heater. Your swimming pool equipment has to have it. Just wait & see


I would be surprised.

The main difference between a water heater and the examples you stated concerns "immersion".
A person should never be immersed in a water heater.


----------



## neolitic

Celtic said:


> ....A person should never be immersed in a water heater.


They get all mooshy, and soon
begin to clog the faucets. :thumbsup:


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> Tell me what would happen if the power company lost its ground at transformer?


Nothing.


----------



## ARealplumber

There are 3 wires that went into that service panel. The neutral wire had votage coming from the pole and it was feeding through the ground at the water heater. Simple as that. i cant tell you the exact cause but the power company corrected a problem at the powerpole. Its up to you guys to determine why. if you cant come up with a reason then i will call the power co. and ask them how it can happen.


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> There are 3 wires that went into that service panel. The neutral wire had votage coming from the pole and it was feeding through the ground at the water heater. Simple as that. i cant tell you the exact cause but the power company corrected a problem at the powerpole. Its up to you guys to determine why. if you cant come up with a reason then i will call the power co. and ask them how it can happen.


I await with bated breath your report from your local power utility. I'm sure they will be so pleased to explain, to a plumber, in highly technical terms I'm sure you're familiar with, how an open ground at a transformer will cause power to magically flow through the service neutral and cause you to see sparks in a water heater that's not connected to the neutral that supposedly had power coming in from the pole. How refreshing it will be to be 'learned something' about electrical by a plumber.


----------



## ARealplumber

480sparky said:


> I await with bated breath your report from your local power utility. I'm sure they will be so pleased to explain, to a plumber, in highly technical terms I'm sure you're familiar with, how an open ground at a transformer will cause power to magically flow through the service neutral and cause you to see sparks in a water heater that's not connected to the neutral that supposedly had power coming in from the pole. How refreshing it will be to be 'learned something' about electrical by a plumber.


 The water heater wire had a ground wire. The grounds and neutrals are all connected together in the main panel outside. The transformer lost its neutral and the imbalanced load between the two conductors was dumped to that house. So the house was acting as a big ground rod for that transformer. As I said I'm no electrician but I will find the answer for you tomm. as given from the power co. Until then try not to disrespect people.


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> The power company lost its ground at the power pole. It was feeding intermittant voltage back to the house. ........





ARealplumber said:


> The water heater wire had a ground wire. The grounds and neutrals are all connected together in the main panel outside. The transformer lost its neutral and the imbalanced load between the two conductors was dumped to that house. So the house was acting as a big ground rod for that transformer. As I said I'm no electrician but I will find the answer for you tomm. as given from the power co. Until then try not to disrespect people.


Your story has now changed to 'the transformer lost it's neutral' instead of it 'losing it's ground'?




OK, let's run with that.

So now there's going to be some voltage differences between the each of the two hots and ground. Maybe 110v/130v, maybe 100v/140v, maybe 90v/250v. What it is depends on the loads impressed on each side of the service. 

But turning the breakers off will still turn off the power, whether it's 120v, 130,v, 10v, 50v, whatever. And if the transformer lost it's neutral, turning every breaker off will then _completely disconnect all the wires from the utility_.



ARealplumber said:


> ......... Have a nice day electricians.


Yes, let's try not to disrespect people. I'm still waiting for class to start.


----------



## protechplumbing

Perhaps you could break it down for me then.



macmikeman said:


> Protech stick to plumbing. You are so far off with that statement it is actually quite humorous. Thank you for that. I think I am going to have to raid the plumbers forum with insane stuff like that one.


----------



## protechplumbing

So let me get this straight. There is sufficient contact with the earth on a few ground rods to ground the system, but not a few hundred feet of larger diameter pipe?


----------



## macmikeman

ARealplumber said:


> The water heater wire had a ground wire. The grounds and neutrals are all connected together in the main panel outside. The transformer lost its neutral and the imbalanced load between the two conductors was dumped to that house. So the house was acting as a big ground rod for that transformer. As I said I'm no electrician but I will find the answer for you tomm. as given from the power co. Until then try not to disrespect people.


Just so you know, transformers loosing the neutral connection and transformers loosing the ground connection are two different animals. You have been saying the transformer lost its ground. The fact that the two conductors get connected at certain points does not mean you get to confuse one for the other. I can make either hot or cold water come out my one shower head. There is still a hot water pipe and a cold water pipe. It would rile a plumber for me to pose plumbing questions and not be able to make that distinction.


----------



## 480sparky

macmikeman said:


> Just so you know, transformers loosing the neutral connection and transformers loosing the ground connection are two different animals. You have been saying the transformer lost its ground. The fact that the two conductors get connected at certain points does not mean you get to confuse one for the other. I can make either hot or cold water come out my one shower head. There is still a hot water pipe and a cold water pipe. It would rile a plumber for me to pose plumbing questions and not be able to make that distinction.


Maybe you should go over to the plumbing forum and ask why the hot is on the left and cold on the right. :w00t:


----------



## ARealplumber

ARealplumber said:


> It was feeding through the neutral at the panel from the pole. Who knows what else was wrong with the house...maybe it didn't have a ground rod at the service panel i have no clue. I'm no electrician nor claim to be. I just know the power company came out and corrected the problem at the POLE. I never said i could explain it. I was hoping one of you could explain it.


THE ABOVE IS POST NUMBER 109. NOW WHAT DOES IT SAY IN THE FIRST LINE OF THAT PARAGRAPH? Why didn't you catch that two hours ago?
add>: You guys are far from professionals or you woulda picked right up on what had happened. This electrical forum needs major help in the tech department. I will still get the ruling for you guys as to what this can do. Since none of you seem to know.


----------



## macmikeman

protechplumbing said:


> I don't see that happening. The amount of pipe surface area exposed
> to the moist earth would dissipate any voltage before it made it all the way back up the neighbors water service and into his house. The water services would essentially be acting as grounding electrodes.


Dude you are trying to cheat. At least repost your ridiculous statement if you want to question my response to it. Here is what you posted. I will now highlight the foolish statement you made and then ask you a question.



protechplumbing said:


> I don't see that happening. The amount of pipe surface area exposed
> to the moist earth would dissipate any voltage before it made it all the way back up the neighbors water service and into his house. The water services would essentially be acting as grounding electrodes.


Question: Can you explain in your best plumbing terms to me what the frick you are meaning with The amount of pipe surface area exposed to the moist earth would dissapate any voltage before it made it all the way back up the neighbors water service and into his house? Oh wait I get it now. The electrons got hungry and dissapated down to that electro fast food resturant at the center of the earth they all want' to get to. Is that the right plumbers answer?


----------



## protechplumbing

And BTW, I was just able to get 67volts by holding one lead and sticking the other one in a 120v receptical. That is enough voltage to shock someone. I was also touching a painted block wall. So if voltage was being back fed into the ground wire of the house arealplumber was in, from another houses inbalanced panel, and the neutral tap on the transformer was not connected, he could have been shocked.

Probable, no. Possible, yes.


----------



## ARealplumber

480sparky said:


> Your story has now changed to 'the transformer lost it's neutral' instead of it 'losing it's ground'?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, let's run with that.
> 
> So now there's going to be some voltage differences between the each of the two hots and ground. Maybe 110v/130v, maybe 100v/140v, maybe 90v/250v. What it is depends on the loads impressed on each side of the service.
> 
> But turning the breakers off will still turn off the power, whether it's 120v, 130,v, 10v, 50v, whatever. And if the transformer lost it's neutral, turning every breaker off will then _completely disconnect all the wires from the utility_.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, let's try not to disrespect people. I'm still waiting for class to start.


TRY READING THE FIRST SENTENCE OF POST NUMBER 109 MADE ABOUT 2 HRS AGO. DO YOU NOT READ THE POSTS?:w00t: YOUR SUPOSE TO BE THE ELECTRICIAN AND HAVE THE ANSWER NOT ME.


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> THE ABOVE IS POST NUMBER 109. NOW WHAT DOES IT SAY IN THE FIRST LINE OF THAT PARAGRAPH? Why didn't you catch that two hours ago?


I caught it pretty easy. You said the transformer lost it's ground and somehow 'intermittent power' was being sent to the house, travelling through a the neutral.

Now you're saying the transformer lost it's neutral. How does power travel through a conductor that is no longer compete and cannot be part of the circuit?

What part of your own story don't you understand?



ARealplumber said:


> ........YOUR SUPOSE TO BE THE ELECTRICIAN AND HAVE THE ANSWER NOT ME.





ARealplumber said:


> ........ I know the reason why this happened but was curious as to what others think it was.


So which is it?


----------



## protechplumbing

I don't need plumbing terms. Electricity always tries to return to ground. Since it would have to travel through the pipe that is extremely well grounded, it would not travel all the way back up into the adjacent house just to, then threw an individuals body to then get to ground.

Are you going to make me draw you a parallel resistance circuit diagram?



macmikeman said:


> Dude you are trying to cheat. At least repost your ridiculous statement if you want to question my response to it. Here is what you posted. I will now highlight the foolish statement you made and then ask you a question.
> 
> 
> 
> Question: Can you explain in your best plumbing terms to me what the frick you are meaning with The amount of pipe surface area exposed to the moist earth would dissapate any voltage before it made it all the way back up the neighbors water service and into his house? Oh wait I get it now. The electrons got hungry and dissapated down to that electro fast food resturant at the center of the earth they all want' to get to. Is that the right plumbers answer?


----------



## Magnettica

you had objectionable current flow because the grounded connection to the utility was lost.

why do plumbers use red for hot and blue for cold, why not green for cold or orange for hot?


----------



## 480sparky

protechplumbing said:


> ...... electricity always tries to return to ground. ........


 
Uh, no it doesn't. 

Electricity is not 'manufactured' in the ground, and therefore electrons will want to 'return home like salmon'. *It will seek any path available back to it's source. *If that's through the ground, then so be it. But threre is no lunch counter in the ground that starving electrons are somehow drawn to.


----------



## macmikeman

protechplumbing said:


> I don't need plumbing terms. electricity always tries to return to ground. Since it would have to travel through the pipe that is extremely well grounded, it would not travel all the way back up into the adjacent house just to, then threw an individuals body to then get to ground.
> 
> Are you going to make me draw you a parallel resistance circuit diagram?


You are doing it again you know. Both of those funny colored sentances are Plumbers terms, not electricians ones because they are both completly absolutly in no uncertain terms wrong on all counts. Hows that?


----------



## 480sparky

protechplumbing said:


> ...........Are you going to make me draw you a parallel resistance circuit diagram?


No, but how about two diagrams using Ohms Law explaining what an open neutral will do to voltage to ground on the hots in a 3-wire circuit?



-------------

I hope ARP either fesses up or comes clean with an explanation. It's waaaay past my bedtime.


----------



## ARealplumber

ARealplumber said:


> I was disconnecting an electric water heater at a home. I turned the power off to the water heater. Opened the cover at the top for the wire connections to the unit,pulled the wired out and they sparked. I turned every breaker in the outside panel off and it still would spark. I know the reason why this happened but was curious as to what others think it was.





Celtic said:


> I know the reason too....someone was stoopid.
> Now, who knows who that someone was :whistling





480sparky said:


> It wasn't on a breaker.
> 
> I think Petey was slamming you for not properly testing for power after you 'thought' it was off.





480sparky said:


> Whatcha gonna learn him? How to test for power when you _think_ the power is off?
> 
> Or are you wanting us to guess there was another panel somewhere INSIDE?





480sparky said:


> I caught it pretty easy. You said the transformer lost it's ground and somehow 'intermittent power' was being sent to the house, travelling through a the neutral.
> 
> Now you're saying the transformer lost it's neutral. How does power travel through a conductor that is no longer compete and cannot be part of the circuit?
> 
> What part of your own story don't you understand?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So which is it?


So now do you want to answer my original question with an electrical theory??? Or throw more insults and act like a complete idiot. 
Botom line is all you guys were intrested in was telling a plumber he didn't have a test meter or he's stupid. You guys are sad excuses for professionals.
ADD>: So somebody lay out why the ground wire was sparking at my water heater. Tell me how that happened. ????? Ground or neutral being lost at the pole or whatever......can it happen?


----------



## macmikeman

480sparky said:


> I hope ARP either fesses up or comes clean with an explanation. It's waaaay past my bedtime.


You go right ahead Cap'n, I will take the helm over for you, I got hours to go .............:thumbup:


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> So now do you want to answer my original question with an electrical theory??? Or throw more insults and act like a complete idiot.
> Botom line is all you guys were intrested in was telling a plumber he didn;t have a test meter or he's stupid. You guys are sad excuses for professionals.


First off, you haven't asked a question about electrical theory (other than this one).

In order to answer your (now obvious) question (which you at first claimed you already knew the answer to, then stated you would find out, then admitted you didn't actually know....) we have to know what truly happened. Not "I think....", Not "I'll call the power company....." Not conjecture or guesses.

*Was it a lost neutral, or a lost ground?*

If it was a lost ground, NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN. If it was a lost neutral, TURNING OFF THE BREAKERS WOULD *STILL* HAVE DISCONNECTED THE POWER.

Does that answer your question?

Any more surprises for us? Like it was 120V only service?




macmikeman said:


> You go right ahead Cap'n, I will take the helm over for you, I got hours to go .............:thumbup:


Nah, I'll stick it out for a while. I'll meander over the the plumbing forum and start up some trouble whilst ARP composes a response.


----------



## ARealplumber

480sparky said:


> First off, you haven't asked a question about electrical theory (other than this one).
> 
> In order to answer your (now obvious) question (which you at first claimed you already knew the answer to, then stated you would find out, then admitted you didn't actually know....) we have to know what truly happened. Not "I think....", Not "I'll call the power company....." Not conjecture or guesses.
> 
> *Was it a lost neutral, or a lost ground?*
> 
> If it was a lost ground, NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN. If it was a lost neutral, TURNING OFF THE BREAKERS WOULD *STILL* HAVE DISCONNECTED THE POWER.
> 
> Does that answer your question?
> 
> Any more surprises for us? Like it was 120V only service?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, I'll stick it out for a while. I'll meander over the the plumbing forum and start up some trouble whilst ARP composes a response.


 Ok then thats what your saying it cannot happen. Well it did mr sparky. And I will have an answer as to HOW it happened. Your gonna eat your words......I've been in the plumbing service business for 26 years and I've seen alot of strange things. The power co came out and repaired the problem at the POLE.


----------



## macmikeman

Good, the wife just hollared something about dinner time, and then I got to go teeech the kids spelllllin..........


----------



## protechplumbing

I have to go to bed as well. I will draw a diagram with the ohms law showing why you will not have voltage at the other end of the energized water service pipe. I'll get to it tomorrow evening.

I'll close for the night with this statement: The water pipe is one giant ground rod. If you apply 120 volts ac to one end of a series of ground rods you will not have 120 volts at the end of the string of rods. A long underground metallic pipe is no different( that's why you attach a ground clamp to the pipes for secondary grounding in the first place remember)


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> Ok then thats what your saying it cannot happen. Well it did mr sparky. And I will have an answer as to HOW it happened. Your gonna eat your words......I've been in the plumbing service business for 26 years and I've seen alot of strange things. The power co came out and repaired the problem at the POLE.


 
Hmmmmmmmmmmm:



ARealplumber said:


> I was disconnecting an electric water heater at a home. I turned the power off to the water heater. Opened the cover at the top for the wire connections to the unit,pulled the wired out and they sparked. I turned every breaker in the outside panel off and it still would spark. I know the reason why this happened but was curious as to what others think it was.


 


ARealplumber said:


> ...............ADD>: So somebody lay out why the ground wire was sparking at my water heater. Tell me how that happened. ????? Ground or neutral being lost at the pole or whatever......can it happen?


OK, so now it was the GROUND WIRE in the water heater that was sparking? Not the HOTs as us idiots assumed from your original post on the subject because you were turning all the breakers off?

I never said it just cannot happen. It's just I can't pin down what you're saying happened. First, it was the hots that sparked after the breakers were turned off. Then it was the ground that was lost. Then the neutral. Now it's the ground that sparked.

Ya know.... it's real hard to hit a target that's moving.

The utility may have fixed something at the pole, but there's more to this story than we know. You or me both. Something is missing.


----------



## protechplumbing

See pic for my response



macmikeman said:


> Protech stick to plumbing. You are so far off with that statement it is actually quite humorous. Thank you for that. I think I am going to have to raid the plumbers forum with insane stuff like that one.


----------



## ARealplumber

480sparky said:


> Hmmmmmmmmmmm:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, so now it was the GROUND WIRE in the water heater that was sparking? Not the HOTs as us idiots assumed from your original post on the subject because you were turning all the breakers off?
> 
> I never said it just cannot happen. It's just I can't pin down what you're saying happened. First, it was the hots that sparked after the breakers were turned off. Then it was the ground that was lost. Then the neutral. Now it's the ground that sparked.
> 
> Ya know.... it's real hard to hit a target that's moving.


Let me rephrase the question for you and then maybe you can answer it.
what problem could the utility company have if I can get a sparking ground wire at a water heater when its disconnected and all the breakers are off everywhere. Now whats your answer? So I got the neutral and the ground confused but only after you guys had no clue and started asking me how it could happen. YOUR THE ELECTRICIAN.


----------



## protechplumbing

Uh, yes, it does. Do I need to put a meter on a 120v leg and a driven ground rod? How about I install an incanecent bulb in series with a hot leg and a grounded rod. You gonna tell be it wont light? pulease:laughing:



480sparky said:


> Uh, no it doesn't.
> 
> Electricity is not 'manufactured' in the ground, and therefore electrons will want to 'return home like salmon'. *It will seek any path available back to it's source. *If that's through the ground, then so be it. But threre is no lunch counter in the ground that starving electrons are somehow drawn to.


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> Let me rephrase the question for you and then maybe you can answer it.
> what problem could the utility company have if I can get a sparking ground wire at a water heater when its disconnected and all the breakers are off everywhere. Now whats your answer?


An open neutral _could _cause a spark when you open the ground at the water heater tank, but NOT if all the power is off to the house.

Part of the story we need is:

1. Was the plumbing all metal (copper or galvanized), plastic (pvc/cpvc/pex) or a mix of the two?
2. Was the electrical service properly bonded at the main panel?
3. Is the incoming water line metal or plastic?
4. Was the electrical service bonded to the plumbing (assuming metal piping)?
5. Were there any 'made electrodes' (ground rods, rebar in the footings, plates, rings,..... etc) bonded to the system? 
6. Is all the bonding and grounding of a low enough impedence path to properly function as a ground?

None of what you've given us tonight would cause it. Maybe combined with another problem, it's possible. Maybe two other problems occured that had nothing to do with what the utility did at the pole caused it.

I seriously doubt you'll ever find an answer.


----------



## 480sparky

protechplumbing said:


> Uh, yes, it does. Do I need to put a meter on a 120v leg and a driven ground rod? How about I install an incanecent bulb in series with a hot leg and a grounded rod. You gonna tell be it wont light? pulease:laughing:


Only because you have a system that is_ intentionally grounded_. Take all the grounding out, and it will not light. Intentionally grounding a system simply provides an alternate path for the current to flow.

Waste water in a drain line do not 'seek' the sewer line out in the street, does it? Of course not! You provide a path to it with your drain line. If you did not install a sanitary sewer line between a house and the city's sewer, do you think all the wastewater is going to flow towards the street anyway like lemings to the sea?

PuhLeeze!


----------



## protechplumbing

The point I have been trying to make here is that voltage CAN'T travel from one house to another via the water service because the water service is well grounded. Electricity will not go into the ground and then jump back out. It don't work dat way:no:



480sparky said:


> Only because you have a a system that is_ intentionally grounded_. Take all the grounding out, and it will not light. Intentionally grounding a system simply provides an alternate path for the current to flow.
> 
> Waste water in a drain line do not 'seek' the sewer line out in the street, does it? You provide a path to it with your drain line. If you did not install a sanitary sewer line between a house and the city's sewer, do you think all the wastewater is going to flow towards the street anyway?
> 
> PuhLeeze!


----------



## ARealplumber

480sparky said:


> An open neutral _could _cause a spark when you open the ground at the water heater tank, but NOT if all the power is off to the house.
> 
> Part of the story we need is:
> 
> 1. Was the plumbing all metal (copper or galvanized), plastic (pvc/cpvc/pex) or a mix of the two?
> 2. Was the electrical service properly bonded at the main panel?
> 3. Is the incoming water line metal or plastic?
> 4. Was the electrical service bonded to the plumbing (assuming metal piping)?
> 5. Were there any 'made electrodes' (ground rods, rebar in the footings, plates, rings,..... etc) bonded to the system?
> 6. Is all the bonding and grounding of a low enough impedence path to properly function as a ground?
> 
> None of what you've given us tonight would cause it. Maybe combined with another problem, it's possible. Maybe two other problems occured that had nothing to do with what the utility did at the pole caused it.
> 
> I seriously doubt you'll ever find an answer.


I'm telling you that the center conductor in that main panel had voltage coming through it. The water heater's ground wire along with all the other grounds and neutrals from the house are bonded all together in that main outside panel box. Now why would voltage be coming down the neutral leg from the utility co.? The neutrals and the grounds do not run through the breakers so the breakers being off would not make a difference.


----------



## macmikeman

protechplumbing said:


> Uh, yes, it does. Do I need to put a meter on a 120v leg and a driven ground rod? How about I install an incanecent bulb in series with a hot leg and a grounded rod. You gonna tell be it wont light? pulease:laughing:



Tell you what. I can make the whole thing easier for you. Get a 12 volt light bulb out of your car. Get the battery from it also. Drive a ground rod. Hook a wire to one terminal only on the car battery. It really doesn't matter which one, you could try either if you want to experiment some, just make sure its only one terminal. Install your bulb in series with that wire and the ground rod. Watch in rapt awe as nothing happens. This result you will get is because you have not learned plumbing well enough yet to explain it properly to us. By your learn ed plumbing knowledge, that setup I just told you ought to send the spare electricity surging out of the battery thru the light and down, down, down, deep into the very center of the earth where all the wild things are. Do a you tube video of that for us....


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> I'm telling you that the center conductor in that main panel had voltage coming through it. The water heater's ground wire along with all the other grounds and neutrals from the house are bonded all together in that main outside panel box. Now why would voltage be coming down the neutral leg from the utility co.? The neutrals and the grounds do not run through the breakers so the breakers being off would not make a difference.


 

IF (and there's several ifs here!):

1. The service lost it's neutral connection completely between the pole and the house...... and IF
2. some or all of the breakers were still turned on...... and IF
3. some of those breakers that were left on supplied multi-wire branch circuits.... and IF
4. said mwbc's had enough load imbalance on them to create a potential current to ground on it's neutral......... and IF
5. the water heater ground itself was the only path left for said unbalanced current to follow............. Then

I could see it happening. But that's a lot of if's.

However, if ALL the breakers were actually off, I'll say there's no way the ground could spark.

Another possibility (and a long shot, I'm sure you'll agree): Static or devinely-timed lightning.


----------



## ARealplumber

macmikeman said:


> Tell you what. I can make the whole thing easier for you. Get a 12 volt light bulb out of your car. Get the battery from it also. Drive a ground rod. Hook a wire to one terminal only on the car battery. It really doesn't matter which one, you could try either if you want to experiment some, just make sure its only one terminal. Install your bulb in series with that wire and the ground rod. Watch in rapt awe as nothing happens. This result you will get is because you have not learned plumbing well enough yet to explain it properly to us. By your learn ed plumbing knowledge, that setup I just told you ought to send the spare electricity surging out of the battery thru the light and down, down, down, deep into the very center of the earth where all the wild things are. Do a you tube video of that for us....


 So now you want to talk about dc voltage??? stay on the subject if you can manage. try answering my question. You guys remind me of the last electrician I dealt with. I was called out to a sump pump that had a float with a piggyback plug for the pump to plug into. DUH DUH DUH how else would the pump know to turn off and on. This dumbass plugs them in seperately becuase the rainbox wouldn't close. Her basement floods and He tells her to call a plumber:w00t::w00t::w00t: Well I found out today it costs the electrician 15,000 in damage because he was too stupid to know how a simple float switch and pump is plugged in. :clap:


----------



## ARealplumber

480sparky said:


> IF (and there's several ifs here!):
> 
> 1. The service lost it's neutral connection completely between the pole and the house...... and IF
> 2. some or all of the breakers were still turned on...... and IF
> 3. some of those breakers that were left on supplied multi-wire branch circuits.... and IF
> 4. said mwbc's had enough load imbalance on them to create a potential current to ground on it's neutral......... and IF
> 5. the water heater ground itself was the only path left for said unbalanced current to follow............. Then
> 
> I could see it happening. But that's a lot of if's.
> 
> However, if ALL the breakers were actually off, I'll say there's no way the ground could spark.
> 
> Another possibility (and a long shot, I'm sure you'll agree): Static or devinely-timed lightning.


 I was told by the power co that the ladys house was basically a ground rod for the few houses connected to that transformer. i will call them tomm. I follow up on things so rest assured you will get a logical and correct answer in a day or so. I guess any imbalance was being fed to her house....since all the neutrals and grounds are bonded in the main panel thats how it bled through the ground at the water heater....it would have probably bled through any ground i disconnected. the power guy said it was very dangerous condition.


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> So now you want to talk about dc voltage??? stay on the subject if you can manage. try answering my question. You guys remind me of the last electrician I dealt with. I was called out to a sump pump that had a float with a piggyback plug for the pump to plug into. DUH DUH DUH how else would the pump know to turn off and on. This dumbass plugs them in seperately becuase the rainbox wouldn't close. Her basement floods and He tells her to call a plumber:w00t::w00t::w00t: Well I found out today it costs the electrician 15,000 in damage because he was too stupid to know how a simple float switch and pump is plugged in. :clap:


So now electrical theory, which is valid in both the AC and DC world, makes us as dumb as this guy?

Seems I recall _someone_ (I won't say who.......) said "Let's not disrespect people".




























Now, since both the float switch and pump are plugged in seperately, wouldn't the pump run continuously since there's no float switch to turn it off? And how would that flood the basement?


----------



## ARealplumber

480sparky said:


> So now electrical theory, which is valid in both the AC and DC world, makes us as dumb as this guy?
> 
> Seems I recall _someone_ (I won't say who.......) said "Let's not disrespect people".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, since both the float switch and pump are plugged in seperately, wouldn't the pump run continuously since there's no float switch to turn it off? And how would that flood the basement?


You guys hurled enough insults at the start because you thought I was a fool. You deserve one back...dont act like you dont. 
The pumps thermal overload shut the pump off. The pump would cycle on and off by the thermal overload and finally it burnt the motor up. I guess he just plugged it all in and left,never waiting for it to cut off. He even admitted to plugging it in seperate. He thought thats how it plugged up.


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## Speedy Petey

ARealplumber said:


> I dont think petey has a freakin clue so he decided to make a wise crack. I have a tester and the wire was tested. Now if petey will listen he might just learn a thing or two.


Yeah, OK big shot. 

You must be a real joy on the job site. You know, being smarter than everyone else and making sure you let them know it all the time. :whistling :laughing:
WTF is it with some plumbers. There are a few I know that are the best guys, to the point where we are good friends and pretty much everyone likes them. THEN.....there are several who are complete pricks and don't get along with many folks.

I turned in early last night. I am glad the others here showed you what's what.


----------



## Speedy Petey

protechplumbing said:


> Electricity always tries to return to ground.


This one statement alone proves you have only half a clue.


----------



## macmikeman

Ok, in answer to Arealplumbers question, here is my list of ifs.
By the way you saw an ark, not a spark.

If: one of the surrounding houses lost their neutral connection, but the house you worked on still had a good neutral conductor connection back to the transformer.

If: The surrounding houses are tied together by a copper water pipe system like how they do it in my area, with no insulating joints in it anywhere and bonded around water meters.

If: The surrounding houses had their breakers on which allows current to get on their copper water pipes via their neutral bond connectons to grounding electrode conductor tied to the water pipe at those dwellings. 

Given those Ifs, your house was serving as a neutral current return path for the other house(s). You could have a 120 volt potential at an opening of a path back to the transformer like when you separated the ground wire from the heater which is continous to the water piping system. Your neutral would serve as a path back to the source for somebody else's unbalanced current. Current was traveling the water piping to the heater case, and then through the heaters equipment grounding conductor to the neutral/ground bond at the service, then back to the transformer source. That potential at the opening of the circuit could have caused an ark. Probably not a high energy ark, but still yet an ark. You can witness the same phenominum if and as you remove a neutral conductor from the neutral busbar while it is under load. (by the way I do not suggest that you go trying to do this as you can get quite a whallop off that neutral if you are not careful with it.) I hope that answers your question. I don't believe I was jumping on you before, (maybe I did a bit....) I did however the other plumber who came here with wrong info and then proceeds to tell us how we are all wrong.


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> You guys hurled enough insults at the start because you thought I was a fool. You deserve one back...dont act like you dont.
> The pumps thermal overload shut the pump off. The pump would cycle on and off by the thermal overload and finally it burnt the motor up. I guess he just plugged it all in and left,never waiting for it to cut off. He even admitted to plugging it in seperate. He thought thats how it plugged up.


 
See, now that's how you prove yourself the idiot. You only post PART OF THE STORY..... HALF THE FACTS. And even assumptions (......"I guess".....)

Both your story about the sparking ground (is it still a sparking ground, or is it something else now?), and your story about a pump.

If you want to get an honest freaking answer, try posting ALL OF THE INFORMATION. MAKE THAT INFORMATION CONSISTENT.... DON'T CHANGE IT EVERY OTHER POST.

I think it's already been shown to the world you don't have a clue what you're talking about. And the sad fact is.......... YOU PROVED IT YOURSELF!

Then, just so you can thump your chest and act the Alpha Male, you start spewing out Paul Harveys' _Rest of the Story_. "Boy, you guys are such XXX because you only know what I tell you and don't know all the facts and don't know the whole story because I didn't tell it to you! You're such XXX professionals {..... NOT!}! Now, let's not disrespect people..... _except for me_ because I'm so XXX smart about everything!"




You say a wire sparked when you took it apart. Fine. Then you say you knew why it happened. Yes, you said you knew how it happened. Then you said you didn't know how it happened, and would have to call the utility to find out. THEN: You wanted answers about _how_ that could happen. And they have been offered to you. Now, "don't disprespect people" (Yea, YOU said that!), but what do you do? YOU IMMEDIATELY DISRESPRECT THEM by calling them idiots and unprofessional. NOW who is unprofessional?

ARP......... give us a break: stick to plumbing. There's only two things you need to know to be a plumber.... XXX runs downhill and payday is Friday.


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## 480sparky

Speedy Petey said:


> This one statement alone proves you have only half a clue.


I tried telling him that, but apparently I'm too much of a fúcking ******* electrician I don't know what I'm talking about. I guess I should go to TurdHerder School in order to finish my electrical training.


----------



## ARealplumber

480sparky said:


> edited


 I know this ****s gonna roll downhill today for sure. Your just like the electrician that worked on the pump....assumed he knew everything and it cost him 15 grand. My original post said i knew what happened and I do....The power co had a problem at the powerpole. I only tried to explain half-assed i admit as to why it happened after you idiots couldn't figure it out or said "It cant happen". You will be getting a proper answer. In the mean time try to to kill anybody with your "Know it all" attitude......like the electrician who wired my pump up wrong. he was so dumb even after i explained how he burnt the pump up...he still didn't get it.:laughing:


----------



## ARealplumber

I will tell you another way i could get intermittant voltage at the water heater. This happened a few years ago thanks to a stupid electrician. I turn the double pole 30 amp breaker to the off position. Check the two legs and they show the power is off. I go to the truck for a garden hose and come back to the water heater,and when i pull the wires i get sparks. I check the wires and they read 60 volts or so. i check the breaker and its off....i go back to the wires and they show "NO POWER". I wait a few minutes and check the wires again......this time i get power again about 60 volts. The dumbass electrician didn't have a double pole space in outside main panel for a tanning bed he wired up...so what does this idiot do????? he sticks one leg of the 220v tanning bed into one leg of the water heater breaker and the ohter leg into some other breaker to get 220 for the tanning bed. Everytime the tanning bed was turned on i would get voltage back at the water heater. Another dumbass trying to kill sombody. I called an electrician about this problem.....His answer was "If the breaker is off theres noway power is coming through it".........so one electrician wired it wrong then another was so arrogant he wouldn't even come look at the problem...just assumed i was mistaken.
HEY DID ANY OF YOU ELECTRICIANS DO THIS......I FOUND IT IN AN ATTIC A FEW WEEKS BACK.NICE WORK GUYS


----------



## Magnettica

Usually I come and fix that sort of thing. 

Saw this the other day, did you do this?










NICE WORK GUYS!!!


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> I know this ****s gonna roll downhill today for sure. Your just like the electrician that worked on the pump....assumed he knew everything and it cost him 15 grand. My original post said i knew what happened and I do....The power co had a problem at the powerpole. I only tried to explain half-assed i admit as to why it happened after you idiots couldn't figure it out or said "It cant happen". You will be getting a proper answer. In the mean time try to to kill anybody with your "Know it all" attitude......like the electrician who wired my pump up wrong. he was so dumb even after i explained how he burnt the pump up...he still didn't get it.:laughing:


First off, YOU are the one assuming I assume I know everything. I am not the one here who is spouting off about how much smarter I am than everyone else. That's your job. 

How do you get any work done at the job site when you're so busy telling the framers, carpenters, drywallers, electricians, brickmasons, landscapers, painters, roofers, carpet layers, etc. etc. etc. how to do THEIR jobs since they're all a bunch of dolts?

You said you knew what happened. That is a lie by your own admission. You then stated you would find out what happened. We're still waiting, and I seriously doubt you will find out anyway.

You just can't seem to grasp the facts that your story keeps changing. How do you expect us to give you an answer when you keep changing and adding stuff?

The only defense you've offered on your behalf is that we're all just numbnuts who can't run a pair of wire strippers to save our lives. And yes, IT WAS YOU *----- YOU ----* who stated, and I will quote you:



ARealPlumber said:


> Until then try not to disrespect people.


Now, you want an answer about how it could happen. What part of TWO POSSIBILITIES HAVE BEEN OFFERED AND YOU HAVE NOT EVEN MADE NOTICE OF IT do you not comprehend? YOU WANT A FREAKING ANSWER, AND THEN YOU IGNORE THEM ONLY SO YOU CAN INSULT US MORE.

If you want to keep posting photos of someone else's poor work and childishly ask if it mine, well, go right ahead.... act like a two-year old. That is obviously the level of your mentality.


----------



## spdtrx

480sparky said:


> First off, YOU are the one assuming I assume I know everything. I am not the one here who is spouting off about how much smarter I am than everyone else. That's your job.
> 
> How do you get any work done at the job site when you're so busy telling the framers, carpenters, drywallers, electricians, brickmasons, landscapers, painters, roofers, carpet layers, etc. etc. etc. how to do THEIR jobs since they're all a bunch of dolts?
> 
> You said you knew what happened. That is a lie by your own admission. You then stated you would find out what happened. We're still waiting, and I seriously doubt you will find out anyway.
> 
> You just can't seem to grasp the facts that your story keeps changing. How do you expect us to give you an answer when you keep changing and adding stuff?
> 
> The only defense you've offered on your behalf is that we're all just numbnuts who can't run a pair of wire strippers to save our lives. And yes, IT WAS YOU *----- YOU ----* who stated, and I will quote you:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, you want an answer about how it could happen. What part of TWO POSSIBILITIES HAVE BEEN OFFERED AND YOU HAVE NOT EVEN MADE NOTICE OF IT do you not comprehend? YOU WANT A FREAKING ANSWER, AND THEN YOU IGNORE THEM ONLY SO YOU CAN INSULT US MORE.
> 
> If you want to keep posting photos of someone else's poor work and childishly ask if it mine, well, go right ahead.... act like a two-year old. That is obviously the level your your mentality.


 
480 sparky
Thats why I like you. You never hold anything back. :thumbsup:
I like reading your post at Mike Holt forum as well. 
I'v learned alot form your posts and I thank you for that.:thumbup:


----------



## ARealplumber

I thought you were the guy saying "IT CANT HAPPEN". Well mr sparky it did happen. I had a wire sparking with every breaker and panel in the OFF position as my original post stated. And i do know what happened. The power company had a problem at their powerpole. Nothing was changed or repaired at the customers home. You will get your proper explaination if you can hold your wad long enough.:w00t::laughing:
I JUST LEFT A MESSAGE TO A FRIEND THAT BUILDS THE SUB STATIONS FOR THE POWER CO. I WILL HAVE YOUR ANSWER SOON.


----------



## ARealplumber

spdtrx said:


> 480 sparky
> Thats why I like you. You never hold anything back. :thumbsup:
> I like reading your post at Mike Holt forum as well.
> I'v learned alot form your posts and I thank you for that.:thumbup:


 Keep checking back....Mr sparky's gonna learn somthing like the one earlier in the thread did about the water heater element not tripping the breaker. He already has learned i have a test meter and know how to use it. He also learned that some pumps have a float control and the pump has to be plugged into it or the pump's thermal overload kicks in.....and will eventually burn the pump up. All for free:w00t::clap:. I kinda feel cheated.:whistling


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> I thought you were the guy saying "IT CANT HAPPEN". Well mr sparky it did happen. I had a wire sparking with every breaker and panel in the OFF position as my original post stated. And i do know what happened. The power company had a problem at their powerpole. Nothing was changed or repaired at the customers home. You will get your proper explaination if you can hold your wad long enough.:w00t::laughing:
> I JUST LEFT A MESSAGE TO A FRIEND THAT BUILDS THE SUB STATIONS FOR THE POWER CO. I WILL HAVE YOUR ANSWER SOON.


 
OK, the ONLY TIME I said it can't happen is in post 155. And that is the post where I offered one of the possible explainations you have even yet to acknowledge reading. That explanation says some of the breakers had to be turned on, yet you maintain they all were off. If all the power was turned off, and the neutral had been disconnected at the pole (like you claim), then I still maintain there is no way a ground wire at the water heater could arc. If a structure is completely disconnected from it's source of electricty (all breakers off) and the neutral is open, there's no way for electricity to get into the house to cause an arc.

Care to comment on the possibility I offered? Is there something I did wrong? is there anything I missed? Do you actually understand it at all?

Or are you just going with "I'll have an answer in due time, just hold your horses!"?


----------



## ARealplumber

480sparky said:


> OK, the ONLY TIME I said it can't happen is in post 155. And that is the post where I offered one of the possible explainations you have even yet to acknowledge reading. That explanation says some of the breakers had to be turned on, yet you maintain they all were off. If all the power was turned off, and the neutral had been disconnected at the pole (like you claim), then I still maintain there is no way a ground wire at the water heater could arc. If a structure is completely disconnected from it's source of electricty (all breakers off) and the neutral is open, there's no way for electricity to get into the house to cause an arc.
> 
> Care to comment on the possibility I offered? Is there something I did wrong? is there anything I missed? Do you actually understand it at all?
> 
> Or are you just going with "I'll have an answer in due time, just hold your horses!"?


 The power co had a problem....it caused voltage to be fed back to the house...I happened to be the guy who disconnected a ground at the water heater and it was sparking. ALL THE BREAKERS WERE OFF. Now who is suppose to be the electrician? Your suppose to be telling me how that happened. You guys Fk'd up when you started making smart remarks about me checking the wires with a test meter and sombody being "stupid". Just like the typical "know it all" like the electricain's I've delt with in the past. Now I know why the Union pays the sparky's less than the plumbers union guys make. Serves you guys right:laughing:


----------



## Magnettica

_First off, YOU are the one assuming I assume I know everything._

You don't? :laughing:


----------



## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> ......Your suppose to be telling me how that happened. ......


 
AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 


AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID! 

AND I DID!

And so did mcmikeman in post 162. 

And so did mcmikeman in post 162. 

And so did mcmikeman in post 162. 

And so did mcmikeman in post 162. 

And so did mcmikeman in post 162. 

And so did mcmikeman in post 162. 



Can't you even acknowledge my post (#155) and mcmikemans (162)? Is that so fúcking difficult? Can you AT LEAST SAY you read them? Can you reach down into the bottom of the vast chasm of your experience and at least say that you read them? Is it so fúcking difficult to do this that you are incapable of it?

Can you even comment on them? Make a statement? 




Magnettica said:


> _First off, YOU are the one assuming I assume I know everything._
> 
> You don't? :laughing:


No, and I'm not like some plumbers who keep saying they do.


----------



## Anti-wingnut

ARealplumber said:


> I will tell you another way i could get intermittant voltage at the water heater. This happened a few years ago thanks to a stupid electrician. I turn the double pole 30 amp breaker to the off position. Check the two legs and they show the power is off. I go to the truck for a garden hose and come back to the water heater,and when i pull the wires i get sparks. I check the wires and they read 60 volts or so. i check the breaker and its off....i go back to the wires and they show "NO POWER". I wait a few minutes and check the wires again......this time i get power again about 60 volts. The dumbass electrician didn't have a double pole space in outside main panel for a tanning bed he wired up...so what does this idiot do????? he sticks one leg of the 220v tanning bed into one leg of the water heater breaker and the ohter leg into some other breaker to get 220 for the tanning bed. Everytime the tanning bed was turned on i would get voltage back at the water heater. Another dumbass trying to kill sombody. I called an electrician about this problem.....His answer was "If the breaker is off theres noway power is coming through it".........so one electrician wired it wrong then another was so arrogant he wouldn't even come look at the problem...just assumed i was mistaken.
> HEY DID ANY OF YOU ELECTRICIANS DO THIS......I FOUND IT IN AN ATTIC A FEW WEEKS BACK.NICE WORK GUYS


 
Chances are that none of that was done by an electrician, but by someone who "worked with electricity", maybe Handyman99


----------



## Magnettica

ARealplumber said:


> The power co had a problem....it caused voltage to be fed back to the house...I happened to be the guy who disconnected a ground at the water heater and it was sparking. ALL THE BREAKERS WERE OFF. Now who is suppose to be the electrician? Your suppose to be telling me how that happened. You guys Fk'd up when you started making smart remarks about me checking the wires with a test meter and sombody being "stupid". Just like the typical "know it all" like the electricain's I've delt with in the past. Now I know why the Union pays the sparky's less than the plumbers union guys make. Serves you guys right:laughing:


The power company discovered what we knew last night. Several of the good electricians told you exactly what the problem was, -- LAST NIGHT. The grounded neutral conductor came undone on the utility side, also know as the supply side. When this happens -- and it does happen, obviously -- current will take the path of the grounding electrode conductor. This is an NEC code requirement, not something we do to make fun of plumbers when they get shocked. Here, maybe this'll help you understand better....



> Have you done any service work lately, and noticed a spark as you connect or reconnect the grounding electrode conductor to the ground rod of what appeared to be a perfectly normal electric service? Have you ever disconnected the grounding electrode conductor at a water pipe and received a shock? Have you ever noticed any arcing or sparking at a loose grounding electrode conductor at an outbuilding that has a connection to its own separate ground rod? If you answered “yes” to any of these questions, the culprit is more than likely currents in the grounding electrode conductor.
> 
> Fig. 1. Open neutral with grounding electrode serving as return current path.
> Although electricians often attribute these phenomena to “phantom” currents or some sort of mysterious phase imbalance, the condition is usually due to a much different source. Many times, grounding electrode conductors regularly carry current. Many electricians assume the only time there will be current in a grounding electrode conductor for a properly wired system is during a fault. This assumption is usually based on the definitions presented in Art. 250 of the NEC, specifically the interpretations and misinterpretations of 250.2.
> 
> The requirements of 250.2 tell us that an effective ground fault current path is, “An intentionally constructed, permanent, low-impedance electrically conductive path designed and intended to carry current under ground fault conditions from the point of a ground fault on a wiring system to the electrical supply source and that facilitates the operation of the overcurrent protective device or ground fault detectors on high-impedance grounded systems.”
> 
> Fig. 2. Current returns through all paths, not just the path of least resistance.
> 
> Although this section of the Code clearly describes the function of proper bonding, particularly for low-voltage systems, use of the word “ground” in the definition sometimes gives the impression that the grounding electrode conductor is part of the fault-clearing path, and that the currents are only temporary, lasting only until an overcurrent protective device opens the circuit. With that assumption, and based on that incorrect interpretation, many electricians assume that in a properly functioning electrical system, currents in grounding electrode conductors are only present during faults — and only for a very short time. Although further examination of 250.4(A)(5) should make it clear that the earth shall not be considered an effective ground-fault current path, misconceptions persist.
> 
> The case of the open neutral. In a properly functioning electrical system, the neutral conductor carries the imbalance current of the system. For a single-phase system, the imbalance is the difference between the currents in the two “hot” legs of the transformer. For a 3-phase system, the neutral current is the imbalance between all three hot phases. To further clarify this point, let's review an example, starting with the review of a single-phase 120/240V system.
> 
> The current imbalance needs to return via the neutral conductor back to the transformer. But, if that neutral is open, the imbalance current will seek other paths to get back to the neutral leg of the transformer. At the main service, the neutral and ground are connected via the main bonding jumper. If the ground path has a low enough resistance, it may prove to be a satisfactory return path, and the imbalance current will travel through the main bonding jumper into the grounding electrode. Since the transformer neutral is grounded by the utility, and since the main bonding jumper connects the neutral and grounding conductor at the service, as per NEC requirements, the ground path provides a complete return for the imbalance current.
> 
> Fig. 3. An open neutral in a neighboring building, shown on the right. The imbalance current from the neighboring building finds a path back through the water pipe in common to both buildings, and up through the grounding electrode conductor of the building on the left.
> 
> Many times, the first clue to finding an open neutral in your system is to measure a potential difference at the various loads in a building. With the absence of a neutral conductor (or a high-resistance return path), there is no path for the imbalance current to return back to the source. When the neutral is open, and there is no return path at all, the entire system becomes a 240V series system. In the case of an open neutral, when the ground path is of high resistance, the open neutral becomes evident as the voltage difference between the phases. In the case of an open neutral with a low-resistance ground path, the open neutral may never be detected. Currents may continue to travel this path for years until an unsuspecting person opens the ground circuit, potentially placing them in harm's way.
> Typically during a service upgrade project, you're likely to disconnect the old grounding electrode conductor and replace it with a new conductor properly sized for the upgraded service and the new service ampacity requirements. You may also find yourself disconnecting a grounding electrode conductor during routine repair work or electrical system maintenance. It's at this point in the work process that you can expose yourself to a dangerous or potentially fatal shock (Fig. 1 on page C14).
> 
> The path of least resistance. All of us in the electrical industry have been conditioned with the phrase “current travels through the path of least resistance.” But is this really true? Some people conclude that when there are multiple paths for current to flow, current only flows through the path of least resistance. However, a more accurate description of current flow back to the source is that the majority of current flows through the path of least resistance, and less current flows through paths of higher resistance (Fig. 2 on page C16). Given multiple paths back to the source, current will flow through all paths to reach its destination, with the majority of current flowing through the path of least resistance.
> 
> Fig. 4. Building on right has open neutral. Imbalance current returns via cable television coaxial jacket to building on left, and then to transformer.
> Almost every electrical system has multiple grounding electrodes; ground rods, water pipes, building steel, etc., with a grounding electrode conductor to each. A service with multiple grounding electrode conductors that has a higher resistance on one of the conductors, and little or no measurable current in it, may still have significant current in the other grounding electrode conductors. Therefore, measuring the current in the conductor going to the ground rod and proving it safe does not mean there is a safe current level in the conductor going to the water pipe.
> 
> Your neighbor's problem is now your problem. Let's take a look at another example. This time you're working in a building or a house, and you're sure there is a continuous neutral. You look at the service entrance conductors, and don't see any breaks. Everything appears to be in good condition, including the neutral conductor and all neutral connections. You are convinced that since there have been no complaints about fluctuating voltages, or any other indications of an open neutral, that a neutral problem at this building doesn't exist. You even go as far as measuring current in the neutral, and convince yourself that since there is current in the neutral conductor, there can't be an open neutral. This leads you to have no fear of opening up any grounding electrode conductors. Is this a safe assumption?
> Even though the building you're working on may have a completely continuous neutral back to the transformer, the house next door or a building somewhere in the general vicinity may have an open neutral. If the building you're working in and the building with an open neutral have some type of conductive path between them, current may return via that path. A metal water pipe is a good example of such a connection. Current can come “up” through a ground rod or a water pipe into the building you're working on, due to an open neutral in a neighboring building. Figure 3 on page C16 illustrates this condition. The metal water pipe common to the buildings has such a low resistance, that it may not be apparent at the building with the open neutral that there is a problem. The current exits the building with the open neutral through the metallic pipes and finds its way back up through the grounding electrode conductors in your building. Any grounded electrically conductive path between buildings can serve as a return path for current for a building with an open neutral.
> 
> The grounded coaxial braid in the jacket of cable television drops can also serve as return paths for the neutral imbalance current from a building with an open neutral (Fig. 4). Cable television systems should be grounded as they enter the premises as per Art. 680 of the NEC. Since the cable television connection blocks typically get grounded directly to the same grounding electrodes that the electric service uses (or they have their own separate grounding electrode, and that electrode gets bonded to the electrical system grounding electrode), this can become a return path. However, this situation is quite rare, since the ampacity of the return current tends to burn out the coaxial cable). Nonetheless, it can still exist and create a hazard.
> 
> Is the current coming or going? So now you're convinced that there can be current flowing in a grounding electrode conductor. Next time you're on-the-job, use your ammeter to measure the current in the grounding electric conductor before you open up that connection. If you measure a current, how do you know if it's due to current going “down” into the ground at this building or current coming up through the grounding electrode conductor in your building and returning back to the source via your neutral?
> Unfortunately, putting an ammeter on the conductor will only prove that there is current flowing in the conductor. It does not tell you the direction of that current. You must use Kirchoff's Law to determine the direction of the current flow. Kirchoff's Law states that all currents entering a connection are equal to the currents leaving a connection. Simply put, all currents must balance. Let's look at a couple of examples for clarification.
> Example No. 1. You're working on a single-phase, 120/240V service. You measure 11A in the black conductor at the main service panel. You measure 5A in the red conductor at the main service panel. On a single-phase service, the neutral current is the difference between the two legs of the transformer, which in this case is 6A. Therefore, if you measure 6A in the grounding electrode conductor and 0A in the neutral service entrance conductor, you can be relatively certain that the neutral is open, and your building is dumping current into an alternate return path (i.e. the grounding electrode).
> 
> Example No. 2. You're working on a single-phase, 120/240V service. You measure 11A in the black conductor at the main service panel. You measure 5A in the red conductor at the main service panel. As in the first example, the neutral current will be the difference between the two legs of the transformer, which is 6A. However, this time you measure 8A in the grounding electrode conductor. How can this be? Can there possibly be more current being dumped into the ground by the system you're working on than the system imbalance current? Are there 2A of extra phantom current? When you measure the current in the neutral, you find 14A. Now you're really confused. Applying Kirchoff's Law to the circuit, you quickly realize that the 6A of current imbalance from the system you're working on is being joined with 8A coming into this system from somewhere else.
> Final thoughts. Neutral current will return to its source via any means possible. That return path could be through a conductor or connection that may seem unlikely to you, such as a grounding electrode conductor.
> As electrical services in some neighborhoods around the country age — and the likelihood of an open neutral is more probable as well as in areas with high population density where at least one open neutral may exist — neutral currents seeking return paths through what may be considered unconventional means become more likely. In any and all cases, shock hazards can exist with all electrical conductors, including grounding electrode conductors.
> Osoliniec is a private consulting engineer located in Warren, N.J. He is a licensed professional engineer and electrical contractor in the state of New Jersey.
> 
> Things to Consider
> •	*Never assume that a grounding electrode conductor is “dead,” or you may be.*
> •	If there is no current in one of the grounding electrode conductors, this doesn't mean there is no grounding electrode current flowing somewhere in the system. Treat all grounding electrode connection points individually.
> •	Always assume the grounding electrode conductor is “hot,” and treat it as such, until proven otherwise.
> •	Even though the system you're working on may be functioning correctly, and have a good neutral, a dangerous condition may still exist if there is an open neutral in a neighboring building.
> •	Even if the main circuit breaker in the building you're working in is open, as long as the neutral provides a path for that imbalanced current, current can be flowing up through your grounding electrodes, and back through your neutral.
> •	Current can come into the system you're working on from a local faulty system.
> •	The neutral in the building you're working on was sized for its own service, not for additional current from another service. If a neighboring building has an open or faulty neutral, it may affect the system you're working on.


If you want to see the pictures that came with this article from EC&M magazine, click here


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## ARealplumber

480sparky said:


> IF (and there's several ifs here!):
> 
> 
> 
> However, if ALL the breakers were actually off, I'll say there's no way the ground could spark.
> .


Yeah I read that post.......did you? All the breaker were OFF. The ground DID SPARK. What part dont you get...oh yeah thats why i'm waiting on my phone call from a guy who can explain it to you in terms you will understand.:whistling


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## 480sparky

ARealplumber said:


> Yeah I read that post.......did you? All the breaker were OFF. The ground DID SPARK. What part dont you get...............


So you read it. Care to comment? Or don't you understand it at all?



ARealplumber said:


> ........oh yeah thats why i'm waiting on my phone call from a guy who can explain it to you in terms you will understand.:whistling


Yes, but will *YOU* understand those terms?

And you're waiting for a phone call from someone to explain something to you that you have already highly boasted that you already knew.

Like I said..... shît runs downhill and payday is Friday........


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## ARealplumber

Magnettica said:


> The power company discovered what we knew last night. Several of the good electricians told you exactly what the problem was, -- LAST NIGHT. The grounded neutral conductor came undone on the utility side, also know as the supply side. When this happens -- and it does happen, obviously -- current will take the path of the grounding electrode conductor. This is an NEC code requirement, not something we do to make fun of plumbers when they get shocked. Here, maybe this'll help you understand better....
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to see the pictures that came with this article from EC&M magazine, click here


Nothing posted remotely came close to this explaination. Thank you for this very informative post. I'm glad I read it. I hope some other electricians will read it and THEN READ THE CRAP THEY POSTED AND COMPARE THE difference in the content. SORRY THE PLUMBER COULDN'T GIVE AN EXPLAINATION LIKE THAT.:clap:


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## ARealplumber

ARealplumber said:


> I was disconnecting an electric water heater at a home. I turned the power off to the water heater. Opened the cover at the top for the wire connections to the unit,pulled the wired out and they sparked. I turned every breaker in the outside panel off and it still would spark. I know the reason why this happened but was curious as to what others think it was.


 HERE IS MY ORIGINAL POST. I STAND BY THE STATEMENT I KNOW THE REASON. THE REASON WAS GIVEN TO ME THAT THE POWER CO HAD A PROBLEM AT THE POWERPOLE. Dont try to take a word out of context to make up for your lack of knowledge. read the LONG AZZ post with the answer you friend posted a few minutes ago. Go ahead and learn somthing.:laughing:


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## Magnettica

ARealplumber said:


> HERE IS MY ORIGINAL POST. I STAND BY THE STATEMENT I KNOW THE REASON. THE REASON WAS GIVEN TO ME THAT THE POWER CO HAD A PROBLEM AT THE POWERPOLE. Dont try to take a word out of context to make up for your lack of knowledge. read the LONG AZZ post with the answer you friend posted a few minutes ago. Go ahead and learn somthing.:laughing:


He already knows what's written in that article. I posted that info for you so your face will turn red when you realize the article says what they said in post #155 and #162.


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## ARealplumber

Magnettica said:


> He already knows what's written in that article. I posted that info for you so your face will turn red when you realize the article says what they said in post #155 and #162.


I guess you dont read well either. Compare the lenght of the magazine article you posted to those posts. OK NOW TELL MR SPARKY THAT THE BREAKERS BEING OFF WILL NOT STOP IT FROM HAPPENING. THINK YOU CAN DO THOSE TWO THINGS?
post number 162 was posted this morning around 6 am. what happened lastnight?


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## Magnettica

480sparky said:


> IF (and there's several ifs here!):
> 
> 1. The service lost it's neutral connection completely between the pole and the house...... and IF
> 2. some or all of the breakers were still turned on...... and IF
> 3. some of those breakers that were left on supplied multi-wire branch circuits.... and IF
> 4. said mwbc's had enough load imbalance on them to create a potential current to ground on it's neutral......... and IF
> 5. the water heater ground itself was the only path left for said unbalanced current to follow............. Then
> 
> I could see it happening. But that's a lot of if's.
> 
> However, if ALL the breakers were actually off, I'll say there's no way the ground could spark.
> 
> Another possibility (and a long shot, I'm sure you'll agree): Static or devinely-timed lightning.



I agree with everything other than "if ALL the breakers were actually off, I'll say there's no way the ground could spark" because if the neighbors service is powered from the same transformer there is still a load there, but not if all their breakers are off too which is what he probably meant.

Just admit that this technical talk is way over your head Mr Plumberman.


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## 480sparky

OK, I am going put this as simple and sincerely as possible:

It is painfully obvious you have no clue what you are talking about. You are a poser. And a troll. And a liar. You should stick to plumbing because shît runs downhill and payday is Friday.

You claim this..... You claim that. But you cannot provide any sort of evidence, proof, information, documentation, _anything_ other than you say 'Well, it happened!".

Fine. Believe what you will. I'm sure the union just loves to have self-dilusional helpers on the jobsites.

I wish you well in your endeavors in life. May your illusions of grandeur provide you with many lovely surprises in the future.


You are not worthy of any more of my attention. I will punch out now.


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## ARealplumber

Magnettica said:


> I agree with everything other than "if ALL the breakers were actually off, I'll say there's no way the ground could spark" because if the neighbors service is powered from the same transformer there is still a load there, but not if all their breakers are off too which is what he probably meant.
> 
> Just admit that this technical talk is way over your head Mr Plumberman.


 I totally admit it. Ive been saying it from the start. I never said i could explain it all. I was attacked from the start. I see mr sparky doesn;t want to talk about it anymore......i guess he doesn;t agree that the breakers has nothing to do with it. Atleast he admits now it CAN happen.


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## Magnettica

480sparky said:


> OK, I am going put this as simple and sincerely as possible:
> 
> It is painfully obvious you have no clue what you are talking about. You are a poser. And a troll. And a liar. You should stick to plumbing because shît runs downhill and payday is Friday.
> 
> You claim this..... You claim that. But you cannot provide any sort of evidence, proof, information, documentation, _anything_ other than you say 'Well, it happened!".
> 
> Fine. Believe what you will. I'm sure the union just loves to have self-dilusional helpers on the jobsites.
> 
> I wish you well in your endeavors in life. May your illusions of grandeur provide you with many lovely surprises in the future.
> 
> 
> You are not worthy of any more of my attention. I will punch out now.



:laughing:

I agree!


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## ChrWright

I think the OP got the info he needed.

This thread is closed.


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