# Back-stabbing against local code.



## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Long story short, "licensed" EC was back-stabbing and got tagged, I looked it up and it's a local Amendment, thought it was interesting.

mdshunk, you involved with this Amendment?:laughing:

Here is a link to the actual ordinances:
http://www.villageoflombard.org/ordinances/title15c150.pdf


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I would support that amendment. The one right after that, (B), is interesting also. It would cause a person to pigtail out to each receptacle. I would support that also.

I understand that IL has 90-odd local permutations of the NEC. I would think that would be difficult for even a licensed electrician to keep straight, particularly if you only occasionally get into a certain jurisdiction. That said, I don't think any self-respecting electrician should be backstabbing. I know some do it for speed and economy, but these are normally guys who never get to visit their work after the warranty is out.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

:notworthy All hail the AHJ who in his own capacity of all knowing surpasses the UL and the NEC. Based on his vast experience after visiting thousands, no, millions of fires caused by the use of the method A. or B. An even safer method would be to require explosion proof wiring methods including grc conduit for all electrical work performed, regardless of what type of building enviroment. I think that perhaps he should also in his capacity for knowing the safety of wiring methods also mess around with Table 310-16 a bit. Maybe upsize the guage of the conductors a step or two for each ampacity level. If what I suggest is ludicrous, so is what they require.


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

Not ludicrous at all. I second the notion that back stabbing should be outlawed.....however I do make a good amount of money from that practice. Pigtails should be mandatory in all receptical installations. That is how I wire them all up. Should a HO or handyman choose to replace recepts there is less of a chance of them interfering with the continuous circuit.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

No stab-locking here!

But I do rely on the device (a receptacle) for bridging the circuit.

*except, of course, on MWBC's.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

Well here is the deal, I don't backstab either. But I know UL tests the devices and lists them as acceptable for that usage. My gripe is AHJ's that listen to the small talk out there and then control the workforce based on whatever it is that they think they know. I have seen an equal number of burnt wire nuts in my career as burnt receptacles so that point is moot at least with me. And if an unqualified hack opens a circuit by removing a device, then doesn't put it back right, the problem was the hack, not the side terminal screws and plate. By the way, the side plates will carry the full rated current load of the device no problem.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

Pigtailing the ground is required here so you can cut or remove the receptical without breaking the bond down the line.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

BuildingHomes said:


> Pigtailing the ground is required here so you can cut or remove the receptical without breaking the bond down the line.


Yeah, here too. It's part of the NEC. That's why there's only one ground screw on the device, unlike the hot and neutral screws. I understand that Canadian switches don't have a ground screw on them, even if you wanted to bond them. Is that still true? 
Under no circumstance may more than one conductor ever be wrapped around a screw, either under the NEC or the CEC.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> Yeah, here too. It's part of the NEC. That's why there's only one ground screw on the device, unlike the hot and neutral screws. I understand that Canadian switches don't have a ground screw on them, even if you wanted to bond them. Is that still true?
> Under no circumstance may more than one conductor ever be wrapped around a screw, either under the NEC or the CEC.


MD you're to fast, I was just going to say that, wouldn't you have to pigtail because of only one ground screw. Not a problem here because there is usually no GC, the conduit is the ground. *I do have a question*, do devices (outlets and switches) still come with those cardboard like screw retainers and don't you have to remove them when using emt as the ground? On that same job they are using devices that have the cardboard like retainers and they're not removed (weren't tagged for it). The electric work is being done by some fellows that don't speak the language (seeing a lot of that around here lately and these are some nice homes).


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I don't know about the code requirements as they pertain to removing those little cardboard screw retainers. I always pull a ground, and tail my ground out to the device. I know the "self grounding" receptacles have spring wire in the screw hole of the device yoke that contacts the screw, but it seems to me that there ought to be metal to metal contact between the device yoke and the box ear. Someone elese will surely know, but I just don't ever do it that way to know for sure.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Im all for pigtailing everything. But will it or doesnt effect the wire fill volume of the box. Thats how boxes get sloppy forcing wire in. What about 12 guage forget it. Doing this you better require taping as precaution.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

It does not affect the box fill calculation in any way to pigtail inside a box. It does physically make it harder to fit everything in, but if you are following box fill the right way you should have no trouble anyway. It just takes longer, uses two extra wirenuts. The extra "quality" of the method is up for debate.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

tom m said:


> Doing this you better require taping as precaution.


Why? Is that the way the clerk in the electrical aisle at Home Depot told you to do it? 

When I see tape around wire nuts, that's a big red flag that a handyman wrenched on this circuit.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Whats up with the wise cracks? You should write a book on being so perfect with everything. You must have been born a seasoned pro. I bet those pros twist that nut on perfect every time as well as that new apprentice my ignorance.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

tom m said:


> Whats up with the wise cracks?


Because you're attempting to dispense advice, and I feel the need to point out how foolish your advice was. 

Since you're not an expert in this category, something along the lines of "would a wrap of tape be of some benefit" would have yeilded a more educational response. When you blurt out something so silly, you've pretty much asked for what you got.

You also said, "what about 12 gauge, forget it", which I didn't touch. Since you've provoked me now, I feel the need to point out how silly this is as well. Commercial work is the type of work where devices are almost always pigtailed, and devices on most commercial work are done almost exclusively on at least 12 gauge. 

Let's make a deal. I won't tell you how to remodel stuff as long as you don't try to tell the electricians how to best wire stuff up.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

macmikeman said:


> It does not affect the box fill calculation in any way to pigtail inside a box. It does physically make it harder to fit everything in, but if you are following box fill the right way you should have no trouble anyway.


Amen.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> I don't know about the code requirements as they pertain to removing those little cardboard screw retainers. I always pull a ground, and tail my ground out to the device. I know the "self grounding" receptacles have spring wire in the screw hole of the device yoke that contacts the screw, but it seems to me that there ought to be metal to metal contact between the device yoke and the box ear. Someone elese will surely know, but I just don't ever do it that way to know for sure.


Found this and the devices don't have the spring-type grounding strap. I talked to the GC, turns out he's the one with the electricians license, he gets the permits and has laborers do the work. In Illinois you only need to get a license in one town and all other towns have to accept it (Court decision). Anyhow the GC tells me he took an "exam prep" course that prepares you for the specific exam, pass the test and you're an Illinois licensed electrician, holy crap, and these are some pretty nice homes. If you have an electrical questions I can pass them on to him and get you some answers.:laughing:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Sounds good, Mikey. Heck, I even have the handbook you copied and pasted from, I was just too lazy to look it up. I just can't bring myself to not tail the ground out to the device, so it's a non-issue for me, but good trivia just the same. Thanks! 

So.... you on your way to being an IL licensed electrician? :laughing:


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

At least it's an actual AMENDMENT, and not the inspector just throwing his weight around.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> Why? Is that the way the clerk in the electrical aisle at Home Depot told you to do it?


:jester:
:laughing:


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## terrynistler (Dec 5, 2006)

tom m said:


> Doing this you better require taping as precaution.


I would like to see a properly assembled wire nut that would benefit from tape. Half the time when you dissasemble a properly secured wire nut the metal spring is still on the wires holding them together even though the plastic will separate after much force. If they are properly prepared the wires beyond the nut should even be twisted together at least two turns. What tape is going to surpass that? 

Bottom line if you need tape to secure a wire nut then you are doing it wrong.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

JohnJ0906 said:


> At least it's an actual AMENDMENT, and not the inspector just throwing his weight around.


Very true. I can jump through whatever hoop they want, as long as we have a published set of rules. 

Just today I learned of a man who used a very expensive fan box kit to mount a paddle fan in a suspended ceiling. This was a kit that was UL approved for fan support in suspended ceilings and, in fact, a kit that I've used before myself. This wasn't good enough for the inspector, and he wanted the contractor to add additional support with Kindorf type material. Abuse of power, I say. If it wasn't holding up this fella's final check, I think he'd have been a lot more vocal about the matter.


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## jbelectric777 (Jun 1, 2007)

*Stabbing devices*

Hello all, I have my dsl again here in south jersey (somers point/ocean city area) workin mostly in cape may and wildwood...... any way,,,, about stabs on devices, just dont do it, it was an idea 20 years ago and it didnt work. how many times have we all gotten a service call on a dwelling less than 25 years old when they say " i have no power in the bedroom and hallway" , the first thing I think is , hmmm, someone stabbed, just bang on the wall at each outlet and watch the lights blink........ we have an entire generation of stabbers to deal with, so lets all agree not to do it and maybe we could send those code change cards in our codebooks to the committee @ the NEC and get stabs banned all together ? Ya gotta start somewhere right.... Happy 4Th of July to everyone, make it safe..... Jim


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## POOLMANinCT (Oct 7, 2006)

please define "backstabbing"

ty


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

POOLMANinCT said:


> please define "backstabbing"
> 
> ty



Instead of using the nuts to attach your wire you can get outlets that have holes in the back and you just slip in the wire.


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

I ain't no sparky, but, "what is 'backstabbing'?

You have a choice on how to connect a wire to the back of a receptacle (often): You can twist the wire around a screw and tighten the screw, or you can simply push the bare end of the wire into a hole in the back of the receptacle, there is a 'barb' in there that holds it in and makes the connection. (sort of).

The second method is called 'backstabbing'. I am not an electrician, and have no opinion whatsoever on the efficacy of this practice (disclaimer).


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

I don't wire up devices using the holes, I terminate on the screws. It is called backstabbing sometimes. I have been instructed by a very wise old sage. According to him, they are "profit holes" and all the big city electricians do it that way, so if you want to be a big city electrician, then use the profit holes....:thumbup:


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> Sounds good, Mikey. Heck, I even have the handbook you copied and pasted from, I was just too lazy to look it up. I just can't bring myself to not tail the ground out to the device, so it's a non-issue for me, but good trivia just the same. Thanks!



I was to lazy too and was hoping you might know off the top of your head, I remember being told about removing the retainers years ago, didn't know if it was code or not. Now I know, it's not as clear in older versions of the NEC but it is there, not my business, it's between the inspector and builder, I was just curious.



> So.... you on your way to being an IL licensed electrician? :laughing:


I already have the license, I got dinged doing a little electric work in a kitchen reno a while back and decided to get it after that, just in case, I don't do a lot of electrical work, only when necessary, but I'm not going to call and wait for an electrician for one outlet.


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## Beren (Apr 27, 2007)

Hm. Let's assume a "friend" recently replaced a bum GFI receptacle at his parents' home with a Cooper GFI using the holes in the back. This particular model lets you, or your "friend", tighten the terminal screws to secure the wires in the holes. 

Does the collective concern over "back-stabbing" apply to these style receptacles as well?


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## stars13bars2 (Feb 13, 2005)

No that is considered back wiring and not back stabbing. That screw tightning method is used on the best industrial receptacles, although they are generally a little better quality than the residential GFCI receptacles. Where you just stick the wire in the back of a residential receptacle is the one that usually presents problems.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

You all have brought up some very well articualted arguments. As well as some problems all trades face. It is true in Illinois that you test in one munincipality it is good everywhere in the state. I know of one place where they have three seperate tests. One for resi, one for commercial under 250v and one for 251v+. Some places there are no distinctions between those three. Personally, I would think since the code is national, so should the licencing (like pilots, airplane mechanics) since that is what the testing is based on.

There are hacks, people that do not know the rules, and people that are not willing to follow the rules, in all sorts of work. It is not limited to electrical work, or even construction. 

The people for other countries are a threat to all of the trades jobs, and quite often the safety of out jobsites, and homes that they work on. But, that is for anyone who is ignorant or a hack.

There has been talk of removing one cardboard retainer, even on the self grounding type receptacle. You do neet a grounding jumper on a device where the device mounts on the cover. (garvin type)

Lombard in general is a dificult place to do electrical work. But we have learned what they expect and do it without fighting it. One inspector told us he wishes we would do more work there because it makes his job easier. We try to have a good working relationship with inspectors in towns where we do a good percentage of our work.

Sorry for the lenghty post, I ready everything and replied to all at once.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

macmikeman said:


> My gripe is AHJ's that listen to the small talk out there and then control the workforce based on whatever it is that they think they know.


I agree, additionally I don't like it for the reason MD stated:


mdshunk said:


> I understand that IL has 90-odd local permutations of the NEC. I would think that would be difficult for even a licensed electrician to keep straight, particularly if you only occasionally get into a certain jurisdiction.


I happen to agree with not back-stabbing, but I'm so tired of the different codes and "special" amendments that every single town out here has, it's ridiculous, and half of the towns don't even have their amendments on-line, it's something you find out when the work is complete at time of inspection. 

Of note, is the town is on '90 NEC and has no amendments for while-in-use protection for outdoor outlets or fan-rated ceiling boxes.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

mickeyco said:


> Of note, is the town is on '90 NEC and has no amendments for while-in-use protection for outdoor outlets or fan-rated ceiling boxes.


That is true. Depending on the inspector, he may ask for them (in-use covers) to be put on. As a company we do our work to the latest code cycle anyway. They will make you use listed fan boxes.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

fridaymean said:


> They will make you use listed fan boxes.


They can try, but you can fight them an win if it's not in the code, I wouldn't, but you could.



fridaymean said:


> As a company we do our work to the latest code cycle anyway.


That usually works out okay on electric work but not for deck and porches, if you build one to 2006 IRC it won't necessarily meet 2000 or 2003 IRC and some of the towns out here are still on CABO.

Have you done any work in Northbrook or DesPlaines, I have found them to be about the toughest around on code issues. I used to build control panels for machines in DesPlaines and they forced us into having to submitt our panels to UL, at great expense, for approval. I've been shut down a few times in DesPlaines for not playing nice.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Took a picture of the receptacles being used,they're Levitons and made in the USA, just don't know what vintage (they're new and in packaging), the say #12 or #14 right on them and they have the larger holes on the push-in terminals (12 solid will fit).


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

That SKU comes back to a batch of th the white model 5320 receptacles, in the contractor 10 pack, made purposely for the distributors "Western Extralite" and "Rexel". Is one of those a supply house in your area? The catalog says that the holes are only supposed to do up to #14. 

https://images.ihscontent.net/MRO_images/Attachments/2003.1/LEVMFC/LEVMFCC00010_D15.pdf


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> That SKU comes back to a batch of th the white model 5320 receptacles, in the contractor 10 pack, made purposely for the distributors "Western Extralite" and "Rexel". Is one of those a supply house in your area? The catalog says that the holes are only supposed to do up to #14.


Both distributors are out this way but I think the receptacles are old, they have large push-in terminal holes, could probably push in #10, not like the newer ones where you'd have a hard time pushing in #12. Might even be counterfeits but I don't see there being much money in counterfeiting cheap receptacles. There's all types of funny stuff around the house, weird name tools, Canadian sand paper and other stuff I've never heard of or seen. Just a guy doing it on the cheap I'm guessing.


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