# What kind of septic system?



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Don't know of a better section to post this...

Septic inspections have finally come to a town near me. My town[ship], to be exact.

My grandfathered system would have flunked 10-15 years ago, let alone now--so I have just under a year to put one in that'll pass. It's only an issue legally; I'm on the side of a mountain with no downhill neighbors to poison, but nevertheless the gummint's going to get me.

Mostly rock & clay soil; everything built around here in the last 15-20 years has had to use sand mounds. Rumor has it that even those are marginal, and could wind up being disallowed for new housing any day.

I'll put one in if there's no other choice, but I think they're uglier than sin. Not to mention that I have a problem with having to _pump_ something that runs downhill naturally.

Can anyone point me at some reasonable alternatives?


Oh yeah. I'd rather not pay more than $1K for it, too. :jester:


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

No more than $1,000...........try a 55 gallon barrel with some holes in it and bedded in stone. 

A new thing in my area is a sand filter system. Look into that, there is just a 12" stone mound with 12" of dirt covering it, so no huge mounds. The sand is in the septic tank.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

rino1494 said:


> A new thing in my area is a sand filter system. Look into that, there is just a 12" stone mound with 12" of dirt covering it, so no huge mounds. The sand is in the septic tank.


Thanks. Though... First place I landed has the sand outside of the tank, and requires TWO pumps. Yeesh.

Yeah, I realize that's not what you're describing. I'll have to do more digging. It just chaps my gizzard that seemingly all the modern [approved] systems are either non-passive, and therefore much more energy intensive and subject to breakdowns, or heinously expensive. Or both.

There has to be a site somewhere that reviews and compares all of the available systems. Doesn't there?


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## piercekiltoff (May 28, 2009)

That does seem to be the nature of the beast these days.

Most of the systems I see going in now are low pressure pumped systems at best. I saw two gravity systems last year, and both of them were one in a million (so says the designer, health dept guy, and the owner).

I'd talk to a couple of the good designers in your area and ask them what can be done. Assuming you have septic designers out there?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Hey Tin, you don't have any local regulating agency dictating what you need? Out here we deal with the County Health Dept & Bldg Dept for septics. Have to do soils testing and system must be designed by an engineer.
Your $1k wish wouldn't get you part way through the engineer. Good Luck.


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## Kgmz (Feb 9, 2007)

From what I briefly read at the PA enviromental site on septics. You need to have a SEO (sewage enforcement officer) come and check your site, holes will need to be dug to see soil structure, etc. and maybe a perk test. The SEO will then tell you what type of system you can use. But they will not design the system, and I couldn't find out who is responsible for the design. Maybe the installer, don't know.

I am a certified septic system installer in Washington and Oregon and the rules are different from state to state. In Washington I can only install a designed system. I cannot design the system or do O&M (Operations & Maintainence) work later on it. To do O&M I have to take another test and get certified. To be a designer I would have to apprentice under a engineer for 4 years and then take the test or be a licensed engineer. In Oregon things are different one thing is my certification is statewide while in Washington we have to be certified in each county. And in Oregon I can design the system, install the system, and do O & M work.

Now about your system. If you have clay and barely any topsoil, you would have major problems around here. Around here you need at least 30 inches of topsoil or good soil before hitting anything bad like clay or mottled soil. Mottled soil just means there is a high water table, when the water is down in the summer, etc. it leaves evidence of itself which is the mottling.

If you don't have the necessary good soil, you will need a mound system. The reason you need good soil is that the soil has to breath so that the good bacteria which digest the sewage can stay alive and that whatever is left can flow through the area and be filtered by the soil. And this is also why when you dig the drain field ditches you don't smear the bottom of the ditch with the flat of your bucket, it will close off the floor and the soil won't breathe as well.

Clay doesn't breathe or let the sewage filter through it.

Why you don't see many gravity systems anymore. The reason is gravity systems don't distribute the sewage evenly over the whole drain field and tend to just flood the beginning and may never get to the end. When you flood a drain field the biomat that builds up in the drain field can become impermeable and then the system cannot breathe. And what usually happens is that instead of the sewage continuing on to the end of the drain field it usually just plugs up. A pressure system will distribute the sewage evenly and not flood the system. And with the new requirements for timers will distribute the flow evenly throughout the whole day by metering a little at a time and not just when the float tells it to and dumps the whole tank which can flood the system.

As for costs septic systems are not cheap around here. You can expect to pay at least $750 for the design. About $250 for the permit. And anywhere from $5,000 to $20,000 or more for a residential system.

A simple gravity system will run $5,000 or less for the lowballers. I won't touch one for less than $5,000. A very basic pressure system $7,000 to $8,000. 

And then you get into sand filters, mounds, and anaerobic treatment units, etc. Sand filter actually clean the sewage better than anaerobic units, but if a sand filter fails you have to completely replace it usually. With a anaerobic unit it can be cleaned and you only have one pump, but you also have a turbine that blows air through the system and maybe a UV light. The difference between a sand filter and a mound is that the sand filter is usually in the ground and the only thing you will see is a few monitoring port caps and the lid for the pump well. A mound will be what the name says, a mound on top of the ground. But you will not have another pump. Around here you can expect to pay $10,000 to $20,000 for a sand filter, mound, or anaerobic system. As for my wholesale costs for treatment units, the cheapest smallest unit is $3,000 and includes the blower, the timers start at $500, then you need tanks, pump, pipe, electical wiring, alarms, gravel, etc.

I will be installing a system in a few weeks that will be more than $100,000. It is a 3,000 gallon per day system for a commercial shopping center with convenience store, restaurant, espresso stand and other spaces for rent. And has 3 Nibbler anaerobic treatment units and 10 pumps. Plus another 1,000 gallon per day system for some warehouses, auto repair, etc. on the lot behind it. This system will be just under $40,000.


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

I didn't realize you were in PA.........where you located at ?? 

Whatever you do, stay away from peat moss systems, you will pay through the nose for them. Just the tank and peat moss delievered was $7,600.


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

Excuse the long post but this triggered a response on a recent subject.

We were in the process of selling our house in Vermont.
Our septic system failed the inspection and we were required to replace it.
Our soils were tested by a State certified engineer and the current tank and leach system would never be allowed in today's world.

The new system is a *mini waste water treatment plant *that pumps potable water to the mound system.
It runs every 20 minutes, and has an alarm system hooked to Wastewater Technologies who monitor and maintain this thing twice a year. 
Oh yeah.......The State requires that you have a contract on file at all times with this or a similar company...........

The yard now has a Green Plastic trap door approx 3' x 6' that has to remain accessible for the inspections and maintenance as well as a breather pipe sticking up in the air and two more 24" round access covers to the holding tank.....not to mention the frikkin' mound system :blink:

Cost of this thing:
* $2,500 *- Engineer :detective:- has to submit plans & drawings to the State and to the contractors to bid on. Then he has to inspect and oversee the installation. After that he has to submit a closeout to the State and to the Town that the system was done in accordance to his design.
*$8,000* - Contractor - his equipment, time & materials :wheelchair:
*$12,000* - :nuke:*Mini Waste-water Treatment Plant* :nuke:
*$500/year* - contract with maintenance company (State required)irate:
*$3-400/year* - estimated electric bill to run this beast.

Oh yeah .....and did I mention that it makes a *thump* noise that you hear inside the house when the pump kicks on and off every 20 minutes????

Don't get me started:boxing:............too late..........we sold the house, moved and we now live on a quiet lot in Maine where the soils perk just fine..............:thumbup:

Thanks for letting me rant...............


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Tin - I don't know how far you are from New Britain, PA, but Franc Environmental is located there - I have used them a handful of times for septic systems.


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## jennyvachel (Jun 9, 2010)

Hi......,

I am newbie to this forum. And I am from UK.


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

Hi Jenny

Go to introductions

Welcome to the site..............:thumbsup:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Kgmz said:


> As for costs septic systems are not cheap around here. You can expect to pay at least $750 for the design. About $250 for the permit. And anywhere from $5,000 to $20,000 or more for a residential system.


That's in the ballpark with the numbers I heard when looking into this 5-10 years ago. Now that I'll _have_ to do it, it's probably double. 

Thanks so much for taking the time to type all of that up! Good info there. :thumbsup:



> Why you don't see many gravity systems anymore. The reason is gravity systems don't distribute the sewage evenly over the whole drain field and tend to just flood the beginning and may never get to the end.


Makes sense, but for years I've been trying to wrap my head around the idea that a pressurized system won't do the same thing. Gravity fed is still pressure, just less of it.

And just like I'll always have a wood stove in the house for when Armageddon comes and I need to burn the furniture to stay warm, I'd rather have a system that doesn't require electricity and failure-prone motors to function.

I'd rather just rebuild the drain field periodically if necessary.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

rino1494 said:


> I didn't realize you were in PA.........where you located at ??





CookeCarpentry said:


> Tin - I don't know how far you are from New Britain, PA, but Franc Environmental is located there - I have used them a handful of times for septic systems.


I'm near Harrisburg. There are plenty of firms around here who do that sort of thing; I'm just doing some homework online so I can talk to them semi-coherently.



tcleve4911 said:


> Don't get me started:boxing:............too late..........we sold the house, moved and we now live on a quiet lot in Maine where the soils perk just fine..............:thumbup:


Oy. Maybe I'll just come live with you. :thumbsup:


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

Tinstaafl said:


> Oy. Maybe I'll just come live with you. :thumbsup:


Sorry, Tin. Our system is only rated for an outhouse :laughing:


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