# Electric Radiant ceiling wires



## steveshort (Mar 27, 2011)

I have cut through multiple heating elements sandwitched between two layers of sheet rock on the ceiling of a 2,000 square foot home...

I have done this in the process of installing a forced air heating system... I have cut through low voltage wires spaced in the range of 1" to several inches apart at multiple locations in the process of cutting heating vents [4" by 10" vents] cut into the ceiling of each room... 

The heat in the home seems to be working still... What are the ramifications of what I have damaged, can the heat still work as a back up heating system... is it safe to leave these damaged elements in operation as a back up heating system ?


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Wholly sheep ****. Besides asking us, you need to be talking to a lawyer, your insurance company and the owner. Seems like such a unusual installation, that you could not have been expected to know about it unless you were told before hand. 

Does the owner know?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

steveshort said:


> ............... What are the ramifications of what I have damaged,....


You can burn the house down and kill everyone in it. Of course, that's a worst-case scenario and I'm just an electrician so what do I know?




steveshort said:


> .... can the heat still work as a back up heating system... ..


Uh........... no.




steveshort said:


> ..... is it safe to leave these damaged elements in operation as a back up heating system ?


Uh........... no.



You're either one of the most unqualified people in the tinning trade or you're a troll.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You're either one of the most unqualified people in the tinning trade or you're a troll.


It is certainly possible that the OP is a troll, look at the magnitude of the screw-up, the number of posts by the OP ( one ) and his very name - Steve Short.

As far as incompetence, the slack-jawed naivete of his questions does seem to belie some level dumbness.

As far as making the mistake in the first place, I don't think we know enough of what happened to be able to make a judgement about Steve in this regard. I could see how LV radiant buried in GWB is so out of the ordinary, that one would never think to consider the possibility. But as a HVAC pro, Steve should have voiced some concern about haw the existing heat was provided, and what the thermostats which were presumably present on the walls operated.

I myself wonder if the system was LV, or was it line voltage


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Ease up guys. Besides the obvious lack of etiquette, there is no evidence of a troll per the moderator tools we have available here at CT.

OP, please do an intro in the introduction section to avoid further suspicion.

Thank you and good luck with your dilemma.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

Years ago I did some remodeling on a house that is fact did have a heating element grid in the ceiling sheetrock. Needless to say it was no longer operational. It was something though to cut into the rock and find all these little wires and how crumbly the rock had became from the heat. But for someone to think they could ever use or want to after cutting into them is something else.


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## bhock (Feb 17, 2009)

Heat rises, whats the point of a heating grid in the ceiling to begin with?


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

bhock said:


> Heat rises, whats the point of a heating grid in the ceiling to begin with?


Not sure just know that is the way it was. From the OP sounds like his was/is that way too.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Inform your clients to put the fire department's phone number on speed dial. If they have iPhone they can use the Voice Control feature too.


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## steveshort (Mar 27, 2011)

rselectric: Thank you... I am unsure what you mean by obvious lack of etiquette... If I should have posted some information about myself/company before asking for some input, Please tell me more about your suggestion to do and intro... [what does OP stand for ?]

About being a troll, I don't know what you guys definition of troll is,, However I have been installing HVAC in new construction and performing extreme remodel work for 30 years, I have had my own business for the past 7 years... I have never seen this stuff inbedded inside two layers of sheet rock...The home owner told me it was there [with instruction's to stay within 12" of the wall with all my cuts... I assumed [ignorantly] and ["probably a little arrogantly] that I would be able to see what I was doing from the attic side of the ceiling... I kept telling the homeowner don't worry I don't cut any holes without sending a pilot bit through first to search for wires and plumbing... These heating elements were so imperceptible that I cut through several before knowing of the situation... [we were perplexed thinking where are those heating grids the home owner insisted was up here ?] I had know idea they were between layers of sheet rock... 

These grids are low voltage wires small as a thermostat wire... I was and am hoping the danger is not too intense for a day or two, while I get this NEW heating system operating... Although it does make a person cringe to thing of the ramifications... I am coming to believe that the electric heating system as it is: [ cut in many locations] is complete and utter toast, [unrepairable]... The homeowner wanted to keep this system for emergency backup heat... I am thinking that all the power going to that system needs to be disconnected,,, possibly rerouted to new base board electric heat elements if we are to use emergency electric back heating... Does this sound like the logical course of action... I assume the heating grids in the ceilings are not repairable...

By the way we found heating grids closer than 12" in places that the homeowner said they would NOT be... We have stepped in muck for sure... has anyone got any more advice... are my conclusions sounding like the only alternative, anybody got any other ideas ?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Steve, the OP is the Original Poster in a thread; in this case you. The suggestion to post an introduction, which you've pretty much just done, is to give other forum members a bit of confidence that you aren't a troll--someone who posts provocatively just to stir up a bee's nest.

It's really surprising that in all those years you've never encountered such a setup, but we all have gaps in our knowledgebases. Yes, disable power to that system sooner than immediately; it's toast.

And the number one rule of being in this business: Never trust the homeowner to provide accurate information in a situation like that. Verify for yourself, or refer the job to someone who can.


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## PSG (Oct 16, 2010)

bhock said:


> Heat rises, whats the point of a heating grid in the ceiling to begin with?


Heat does not rise, warm air rises. Heat moves from hotter to colder.


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## steveshort (Mar 27, 2011)

How are you guys quoting those selected statements, for the purpose of pin pointed reply ? 

Example:[tinstaafl] It's really surprising that in all those years you've never encountered such a setup, but we all have gaps in our knowledgebases. Yes, disable power to that system sooner than immediately; it's toast.

Yea I am feeling pretty stupid and incompetent right now...It is entirely plausible that I have encountered this stuff and don't remember it... IN FACT, I bid this job 3 years ago and went through the entire drill with the original home owner,, [the guy past away]... at that time he [the ole boy] realized what I was saying, what I was thinking about my expectations of seeing this stuff from the top side.... The ole guy informed me of my errant thinking... I was called back by his wife after he past and forgot all about the information I was once privy too...

I leaped to the assumption [again] Whats the big deal ? I have cut thousands of these... Sheet rock is all it is, I always get up in the attic and spot for wires anyway no problem... YIKEs


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## steveshort (Mar 27, 2011)

PSG said:


> Heat does not rise, warm air rises. Heat moves from hotter to colder.



NICE!!! never mind I figured it out [ how to pull the quote]... 

Heat does not rise, warm air rises. Heat moves from hotter to colder.[/quote]


NICE: that is an astute connection to the delema/debate always coming up... very simple also very helpful


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

If you can find someone who installs those systems (or the guy who installed that one..), perhaps they could isolate the damaged zones, and salvage a few zones to keep as a backup...


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## steveshort (Mar 27, 2011)

TimelessQuality said:


> If you can find someone who installs those systems (or the guy who installed that one..), perhaps they could isolate the damaged zones, and salvage a few zones to keep as a backup...



NICE!!!! that was the kind of answer I was looking for... Is this possible ? I am looking for some committed accurate direction and solution to give the home owner for his piece of mind... I wish to get this new system in place, operating like the neatest thing on the planet... and then take a deep breath and figure this out...

I am looking for accurate things to tell the homeowner,,, I do not wish to step into invalid implied promises...t 

Not like you need heat in every room for an emergency... They hated the worthless EXPENSIVE heat anyway.... Now they have the newest and greatest HIGHEST efficiency heating on the planet, so what is the problem ? if we can isolate and continue to use a couple zones for an emergency situation, problem solved, [mostly solved, still look like an incompetent idiot and they have lost some value in the home...] but it is a start in some positive direction...


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

I had line voltage radiant ceiling heat in a bachelor apartment for 7 years. The LL warned me not to put any holes in the lid. My electricity bill was sky high from the heating sytem. I turned off the circuit breakers to the heat and used jackets and extra blankets to stay warm.
A good electrician should be able to disconnect the system.


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## PSG (Oct 16, 2010)

Should you ever run into this situation again , I would recommend having someone with a thermal imager locate the grids before cutting. It may cost you 2 - 3 bills but is worth it as you probably know now.


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## DuMass (Feb 6, 2008)

It most likely would have been difficult, if not impossible, for you to install supply and return ducts in the ceiling of rooms with the electric radiant heat without hitting a couple of panels anyway, since the wattage is so low, they generally need to utilize almost the entire ceiling area available.

My 2-cents worth… I would recommend disconnecting that worthless radiant ceiling heat and installing a few electric heat strips in the plenum if they are worried about having backup. 
Since you’re in the trade, you could likely supply and install the heat strips for less that it will cost to hire an electrician to fiddle around and attempt to repair that junk radiant ceiling heat and any related drywall damage. You could pay the electrician to run a branch circuit for the new heat strips instead. 
You should have the electric service capacity for the new heat strips, once all the existing radiant heating circuits are disconnected


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