# Who convinced homeowners that using subcontractors is a bad thing?



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Rob is correct about this-and virtually everyone in this thread realizes it on some level.

If you are in a situation where you need to hide the fact that you are using subs--- you know you have a problem---------------------otherwise you would refer to them as subcontractors,rather than "our crews"-you would allow your subs to drive lettered vehicles on site etc.

in my opinion- if you refer to "our crews" you are trying to imply to the homeowner that those are your employees

and if you are trying to make the argument that "subs are just as good as in-house employees"-you know you are on shaky ground there as well-----------

in your personal life as a consumer-when a salesman tries to tell you that brand X is just as good as brand A-how did that work out?

Notice that brand A never claims they are "just as good as brand X?"

your customers see through this just as easily.

in my career I have self performed work, I have used direct employees and I have used subs-some times all at the same time

but over time I came to see that if I had to"hide" something from the consumer- then maybe i shouldn't be doing what ever i was hiding

so now we only use direct employees-so every one working on our jobs is absolutely covered by medical insurance, WC, earns a living wage, shares in 2 bonuses a year which can total close to 40% of their income etc., is covered by UI. etc.

In my industry virtually all the "subs" are running some sort of scam. The "sub" holds a WC cert. which can be had for $50/half year-and then he 1099s all his "employees" so no one is actually covered by WC-despite the cert.

Betcha all the folks touting how "subs are just as good as employees"-don't spell that out for their un-suspecting customers,LOL
Stephen


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

robertcdf said:


> your own words you admit to taking pictures from the sidewalk, not exactly easy to see detail.
> 
> Want to see our detail? Look at the 2013 fiberon product catalog... Photographer even said to me "i'll recommend we shoot your projects as much as possible, i don't have to look for the best looking spot, i can photograph any part of it and not have to try to hide stuff".


*by my own words i was looking for a camera that would take long shots. *

*Dealing with you is like dealing with a frustruated woman who use parts of previous conversations in an attempt at an indictment.*

*all the pictures on my website and the ones posted here are within 10 feet. Maybe a bit longer when trying to show the whole project*. 

*I threw out the catalog when presented to me as i didn't like the massive color variations that the "new fiberon catalogue shows. *

*I really don't give a fat fooyey about what you do, getting in my **** because you think or pretend to be the "king" is ridiculous*.

.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

Stephen H said:


> Rob is correct about this-and virtually everyone in this thread realizes it on some level.
> 
> If you are in a situation where you need to hide the fact that you are using subs--- you know you have a problem---------------------otherwise you would refer to them as subcontractors,rather than "our crews"-you would allow your subs to drive lettered vehicles on site etc.
> 
> ...


This post clearly answers the ops question. This is all about 1 ups manship.
I've been using subs for 16 years. I don't go in the street to hire them, on a daily basis, I feed em work all year long. 
Should they find side work or feel the need to do dual subbing, the feeding stops.

I'm not paying buttheads hourly so they can drag out jobs. They are getting paid by the foot, bring their own tools, show up when they want (nite and day), have their own insurance. They do a great job, pretending hourly people could even be possibly better just clearly demonstrates your complete lack of business acumen.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

killerdecks said:


> They do a great job, pretending hourly people could even be possibly better just clearly demonstrates your complete lack of business acumen.


And pretending that there is no way employees could do better work clearly demonstrates YOUR complete lack of business acumen. 

You are so hypocritical in your statement it amazes me. 

You think just because someone is paid as an employee they do worse work than someone paid as a sub? That is amazingly dumb. There is one guy I will sub to, he is a true sub though so he usually doesn't have time for me, maybe 1 or 2 projects a year, otherwise he stays very busy on commercial work. Guess what... He used to work for me, he did the same level of work before, now though it seems that he bitches more and whines about things more as a sub than ever before. 

BTW, my guys ARE NOT paid hourly but they are STILL EMPLOYEES. 

What works for you is fine. I've already explained that I TRIED to do it with subs and their work quality was HORRIBLE. I can tell an employee "That's not good enough, redo it" and he does. A sub would respond "it's within industry standards, you want me to fix it? pay me more" of course that would be the last time they were used but it still leaves me holding the bag for that incident.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I don't know about you guys but I've hired 40+ (truthfully I lost count) employees that weren't worth the time it took to fill out the paper work.

My gutter guys are excellent. They save me money which allows me to quote jobs at a better price than if I use my own guys.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

RobertCDF said:


> What works for you is fine. I've already explained that I TRIED to do it with subs and their work quality was HORRIBLE. I can tell an employee "That's not good enough, redo it" and he does. A sub would respond "it's within industry standards, you want me to fix it? pay me more" of course that would be the last time they were used but it still leaves me holding the bag for that incident.


I used to have a sub, he told me that he gets no more jobs. Quite simply guys that are paid hourly which usualy defines employees, suck, drag out jobs, think they get paid travel time, think I'm so lucky to have them I should eat their shorts.

Subs are efficient, masters at what they do, not clock watchers, and work avoiders. There is no way to get peak performance out of guys unless they have the opportunity, to get paid for their performance.

Your comment when you used time lapse camera on one of your jobs was about how inefficient your fellows were. 

Demanding 1/64 tolerances on boards that expand and contract due to weather conditions, must be frustruating. Not sure how you can put up with all the tear out you must do as a result of that. Do you measure each board before you pay your guys or are your eyes good enough to calculate the difference?


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## pibe (Jan 21, 2013)

RobertCDF said:


> What works for you is fine. I've already explained that I TRIED to do it with subs and their work quality was HORRIBLE. I can tell an employee "That's not good enough, redo it" and he does. A sub would respond "it's within industry standards, you want me to fix it? pay me more" of course that would be the last time they were used but it still leaves me holding the bag for that incident.


Have you tried being more specific on the quality/standard you expect when contracting the subs? Shouldnt that solve that issue?



The bad experiences/bad opinions that a lot of people here have of subs is a bit shocking to me. I cant understand how some could see it as a bad thing that someone enjoys a specific trade and wants to specialize in it. Then support themselves by finding work doing their specific trade that they enjoy for multiple people.

Sounds like a lot of the subs that you all have used either dont take pride in their work or dont care to do a good job.(or perhaps they were not researched properly and turned out to be a just a single foreman using certain cheap labor) It would be wrong to label them all based on these few experiences, as there are just as many in the opposite category who love what they do, have perfected their trade through years of experience, strive to produce the best results possible.


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## eastend (Jan 24, 2006)

I think if you replace the word "sub-contractor" with " specialist", it changes the whole picture.
Most doctors will send you to a specialist for specific conditions. 
Obviously the quality of the "sub/specialist" is the real issue.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

pibe said:


> Have you tried being more specific on the quality/standard you expect when contracting the subs? Shouldnt that solve that issue?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just like a few rogue contractors there are rogue subs who tend to make things worse than they actually are. Than in an effort to get work and outsell their competition there is the cadre of builders who slam subs as a bad thing.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

pibe said:


> Have you tried being more specific on the quality/standard you expect when contracting the subs? Shouldnt that solve that issue?
> 
> The bad experiences/bad opinions that a lot of people here have of subs is a bit shocking to me. I cant understand how some could see it as a bad thing that someone enjoys a specific trade and wants to specialize in it. Then support themselves by finding work doing their specific trade that they enjoy for multiple people.
> 
> Sounds like a lot of the subs that you all have used either dont take pride in their work or dont care to do a good job.(or perhaps they were not researched properly and turned out to be a just a single foreman using certain cheap labor) It would be wrong to label them all based on these few experiences, as there are just as many in the opposite category who love what they do, have perfected their trade through years of experience, strive to produce the best results possible.


Clearly you didn't read what I posted... I contacted these "companies" and said "I am considering using you as a sub, I'd like to talk with you a bit more and see one of your current projects" I went to view a project and the workmanship was awful, it ended any opportunity for them to do anything for me, I'm thankful I didn't just throw them on a job and then find out how useless they were.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

eastend said:


> I think if you replace the word "sub-contractor" with " specialist", it changes the whole picture.
> Most doctors will send you to a specialist for specific conditions.
> Obviously the quality of the "sub/specialist" is the real issue.


Don't you think the homeowners already thinks they're taking to a specialist when they call a deck company to build their deck, why does a deck company need to call in a deck specialist?


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

killerdecks said:


> Your comment when you used time lapse camera on one of your jobs was about how inefficient your fellows were.
> 
> Demanding 1/64 tolerances on boards that expand and contract due to weather conditions, must be frustruating. Not sure how you can put up with all the tear out you must do as a result of that. Do you measure each board before you pay your guys or are your eyes good enough to calculate the difference?


Yea and things change... Thought you could have figured that out, but clearly that's too complicated for you so I'll try again.

I used to pay my employees hourly, I no longer pay my employees hourly. 

I hope that was clear enough to understand, if it wasn't then there is no hope for you. 

The last part of you're comment is ignorant and you know it, a miter is a miter if the angle is off it doesn't matter how much the product has expanded or contracted.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

RobertCDF said:


> Don't you think the homeowners already thinks they're taking to a specialist when they call a deck company to build their deck, why does a deck company need to call in a deck specialist?


Really, HO'S call the owner of the company who has specialized in decks, The owner sells, designs, advertises, and interacts with the homeowner. The business owner in turn hires guys who specialize in decks, theby being able to do 100's a year.

The subs are subs because they don't want to deal with the HO'S, or don't know how to get the jobs, or have tried to be in business for themselves gave up and just want to build. 

Not all carpenters, do everything. I thought you knew this. But oh well.


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## pibe (Jan 21, 2013)

RobertCDF said:


> Clearly you didn't read what I posted... I contacted these "companies" and said "I am considering using you as a sub, I'd like to talk with you a bit more and see one of your current projects" I went to view a project and the workmanship was awful, it ended any opportunity for them to do anything for me, I'm thankful I didn't just throw them on a job and then find out how useless they were.




My apologies. Youre correct, i was mainly focusing on the piece of your comment that i quoted. Where it implied that you had hired a sub that did substandard work. I was just suggesting that discussing the expected standard/quality beforehand or even putting it in the contract would save you a lot of headache. 

And i dont see anything wrong with what you did (checking out their work and walking away from it because it doesnt meet your standards). But if you were wanting to get more work done, you would need subs, so you may want to eventually take the effort to find some high quality ones.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

more homeowners themselves are subcontractors these days..


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

killerdecks said:


> Really, HO'S call the owner of the company who has specialized in decks, The owner sells, designs, advertises, and interacts with the homeowner. The business owner in turn hires guys who specialize in decks, theby being able to do 100's a year.
> 
> The subs are subs because they don't want to deal with the HO'S, or don't know how to get the jobs, or have tried to be in business for themselves gave up and just want to build.
> 
> Not all carpenters, do everything. I thought you knew this. But oh well.


My employees only want to build, they used to have their own companies and realized they either couldn't keep busy enough or didn't want to deal with the business end, they like getting a w-2 at the end of the year.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Tom Struble said:


> more homeowners themselves are subcontractors these days..


Tom, it's great to see you back here!


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

RobertCDF said:


> My employees only want to build, they used to have their own companies and realized they either couldn't keep busy enough or didn't want to deal with the business end, they like getting a w-2 at the end of the year.


everybody has different business profile. The point is have subs in no way makes for inferior work.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

killerdecks said:


> everybody has different business profile. The point is have subs in no way makes for inferior work.


can you also admit that employees does not mean inferior work too?


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

RobertCDF said:


> Clearly you didn't read what I posted... I contacted these "companies" and said "I am considering using you as a sub, I'd like to talk with you a bit more and see one of your current projects" I went to view a project and the workmanship was awful, it ended any opportunity for them to do anything for me, I'm thankful I didn't just throw them on a job and then find out how useless they were.


If you called me with that crap id tell you to eat my a$$


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

And BTW the IRS is usually more lenient than your state, at least in IL. IL ruled against us and the IRS did not.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I don't care for subs, but if they want some, there are always 5 dollar foot long specials.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

oh ****, I guess they are all your guys' subs and I just out bid you. It just amazing the amount of one upsmanship employed by nimrods going all out to prove how right they are.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

killerdecks said:


> They are my crews,
> I give em work night and day, they work can work for whomever they want to, the work from me just keeps coming @ them..
> Subcontracting is how the business is done, which is right.


Here I rephrased it for all the snitches out there


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

killerdecks said:


> They are crews,
> I give em work night and day, they can work for whomever they want to, however, they are just too damn lazy to look for work anyplace else, because, the work from me just keeps coming @ them..
> Subcontracting is how the business should be done, which is right.


Here more refined statements for those to whom it must matter.


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## Calgaryfence (Feb 28, 2011)

killerdecks said:


> Here more refined statements for those to whom it must matter.


Sounds like it's YOU to whom it must matter. Why would you edit a post that's been already quoted several times? Backpedal much?

It's not a wonder that you defend subs so much.. In your case you are getting all the benefits of having employees (loyal, available, dedicated to you and familiar with your systems), AND all the benefits of subs (no insurance, no deductions, etc).

Your biggest defense seems to be that employees can slack off while subs cannot, but I think you are confused between the terms "hourly employee" and "employee". You don't have to pay employees if the job isn't done ,and done right. And they can still be employees.


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

1. Subs Truck, tools and Equipment
2. Subs Insurance
3. Suns Registration with the State
4. Schedule set by workers not GC
5. Maintain responsibility of labor and liabilty of their work. 


More importantly than IRS in terms of cost classifying theses subs subs not these subs employees doubles the insurance. 

When my sub crews climb out of their truck and onto my roof via their ladders directing their guys tasks providing their own insurance and installs the roof they are as much their own business as a sub contractor. 

These are subs.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

This is exactly what my guys do,


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Yea, and the stuff I posted directly from the irs was just lies...


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RobertCDF said:


> Yea, and the stuff I posted directly from the irs was just lies...


You love to twist the order of events. You posted that because they were exclusive the IRS would classify them as employees. Which isn't true. That is why I posted the real information from the IRS. That and that alone was what I referenced to Tins.

And I thought that you were going to put me on your ignore list? :whistling:laughing:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It actually doesn't. Employees are far more likely to take advantage of you. You are stuck with them, and they know that if you fire them they can collect unemployment and make your rates go up. There are all kinds of things that they can and will do to take advantage of you.
> 
> Subs are self employed. It's in their best interests to do better than their best to keep you happy. An employee can just do their job and keep it. They have no skin in the game, nothing to really lose.


Employees dont perform as well as subs? Subs dont perform as well as employees? The employee can just do his job and keep it? 

You guys are arguing one successful model against another. Its a ridiculous argument. There are successful firms using subs only, and there are successful firms using employees only. 

As for employees or subs not performing to the standards I set, they are gone. The only difference between a sub or an employee as far as performance standards is that as an employer it is my responsibility to train novices in their trade and and train leads to understand, perform to and embrace those standards that are set. A sub I just specify those standards, and they either can or cannot, will or will not perform to those standards. 

The only other major difference is if an employee burns a stack of Ipe or Azek Im going to pay him for that screw up before I fire him, a sub wont get paid. He will either buy some more material and complete the work or I will let him go without his draw and get someone who will.

Pick good subs and hire good employees and all will be well. Just takes incentive for either.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

The way the IRS defines employees is that if MORE than 80% of the subs income, comes directly from ONE company or contractor, they are employees!

Doesn't matter if they have their own insurance or you 1099 them at the end of the year.:whistling

once again, not guessing, go through the tax code.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Holy hell...

its been a while since I looked at the tax code for the employee vs. subcontrator definition.

My apologies...

It used to be an 80% monetary cutoff...

...now?

If anyone can sift through the legal-speak and tell us what it ACTUALLY says, I would be much obliged.

Its been a while since I had to deal with this.


JHC!


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Warren said:


> So if I do an hourly remodel for a GC that lasts for 10 months, that makes me an employee?


Tis not what I said...


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Right from the IRS website:


"There is no “magic” or set number of factors that “makes” the worker an employee or an independent contractor, and no one factor stands alone in making this determination. Also, factors which are relevant in one situation may not be relevant in another."


There used to be,

...and the magic number was 80%.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

tenon0774 said:


> Holy hell...
> 
> its been a while since I looked at the tax code for the employee vs. subcontrator definition.
> 
> ...


The make it hard to understand on purpose.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

They made a few changes to the rules, they made more changes to the WORDING, not really changing the rules, just making it harder to understand the rules.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

RobertCDF said:


> The make it hard to understand on purpose.


Didn't used to be that way.

So the guy I called out could have been well within his rights...:no:

still doesn't sit right with me...
but that's just me.:whistling

I still stand behind everything I said...

my interpretation was 80% and I'll stand to that, even though the "law" allows more leeway.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

killerdecks said:


> They are crews,
> I give em work night and day, they work can work for whomever they want to, however, they are just too damn lazy to look for work anyplace else, because, the work from me just keeps coming @ them..
> Subcontracting is how the business should be done, which is right.


 Actually-in post #43 you said if they do "side jobs" you get rid of them.

They aren't really free to work for whoever they want-are they?

sounds like employees to me------or" captive subs"

It would be reasonable for the customer to wonder about other issues as well...
Stephen


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

tenon0774 said:


> Tis not what I said...


It is what you said earlier. 10 months out of 12 is 80 percent.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

awh said:


> BamBamm5144 how do you provent your subcontractors from stealing your clientsÉ


With any subcontractor I have there is a subcontractor agreement. I trust that they will do the honorable thing and not bite the hand that feeds so to speak but if they do, it is written in that subcontractor agreement that we will no longer use their services.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Stephen H said:


> JAWS,
> I whole heartedly agree with you there.
> 
> If everything is all on the up and up-what possible reason would there be for a contractor to take pains to disguise his subs as employees.
> ...


Nailed it.

People you need to remember this conversation is about the HOMEOWNERS perception, getting attaboys from a bunch of other contractors doesn't do CRAP to change the HOMEONWERS perception of using subs (primarily in a single trade specialty contractor).


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

RobertCDF said:


> I bet most of the backlash of subs comes from a SPECIALTY contractors view. No one expects a home builder to employ guys that handle EVERYTHING start to finish (including excavation, foundation, framing, drywall, paint, trim, roofing, exterior finishes, hvac, plumbing, electrical, etc, etc.)
> 
> It comes when a homeowner picks up the phone and call "*XYZ roofing Your Roofing Expert, All we do is roofs so you know we do them right*" and after signing the contract with XYZ roofing the guys who show up to do the work are driving trucks that say "Joe's roofing and construction". The customer is confused, they call XYZ and ask, their response is "Oh that's our subcontractor" _The customer doesn't understand how when you ONLY DO 1 THING that you need subcontractors._


 Precisely.
In addition, the homeowner has zero idea or ability to determine of any of the crack heads that roll out of Joe's Truck are in any way covered by WC, Un- Employment, or Liability insurance.

In Ohio XYZ may well have supplied a WC Cert. and Joe may have supplied a WC Cert.- but JOE is then 1099ing all his crack heads and the homeowner is on the hook when push comes to shove.

THAT is why Mr. And MRs. Homeowner quite reasonably may not want to do business with a single trade contractor who uses subs.( And that is why ,here at least, many contractor take such pains to hide the fact they are using subs by referring to "our crews" and requiring unmarked vehicles"
Stephen


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It's not a ridiculous discussion if you actually portray it for what it is. We are not arguing whether they both can or are a successful model, but discussing which is a better model. Surely you cannot be selling that both are equally successful or equally just as good? Not buying it. Our industry does not bare that out. Subs are easier to manage, easier to replace, easier to work with, have more at stake, the list is endless.
> 
> You also stated that the only difference is that you have to train an employee. That may be a big chunk of the difference, but it's not the only difference. An employee is a huge investment. If they don't work out you are out far more than if a sub does not work out. You pay for them long after they are gone. If I don't like the performance of a sub, out they are and the new one is in. No fuss. Heck I have subs that I let go calling back wanting to earn our business back. Once an employee is gone, they are pretty much gone. Rarely do they come back for another chance.
> 
> And I am not speaking out of my a$$, I ran a company with 6 employees for 5 years and now have run this for the past nearly 4 years using subs. Subs are the way to go, unless you have a gem and want to keep them for yourself, they are not worth the hassle. JMHO :thumbsup:


This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. Are you that close minded that you think what works for you is the only way. I have several very talented and loyal employees and I would not be as successful as I have been without them, never could have done it using subcontractors only. On the work that we self perform I use employees, for specialty trades I use subcontractors. I think true contractors and craftsman use their own employees, that's what makes you a contractor, other than that you're just a used car salesman.

Haha man I did not want to get into this, but **** I had too.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Also so you guys don't think I don't use subs, I obviously use them for electrical, gas lines, roofing (sometimes we do it in house, just depends upon scheduling), stucco, etc. I even subbed out some deck projects last year when we couldn't do them in the time frame they wanted, I told the owners "We can't do your project in the time frame you want it by, I know 1 guy that I trust to sub to, if he is available would you like him to do your project?" Their response was "That's fine, as long as your backing them up with your warranty and company name"


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Quit quoting the people on my ignore list, I can't stand to see the stupidity that flows from their keyboards, that's why I placed them on ignore.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

Stephen H said:


> Precisely.
> In addition, the homeowner has zero idea or ability to determine of any of the crack heads that roll out of Joe's Truck are in any way covered by WC, Un- Employment, or Liability insurance.
> 
> In Ohio XYZ may well have supplied a WC Cert. and Joe may have supplied a WC Cert.- but JOE is then 1099ing all his crack heads and the homeowner is on the hook when push comes to shove.
> ...


Well I guess, if you have to crack heads because you just can't get anybody better, you won't last very long. 
But as for me, *MR CONDESCENDING*, I've been at it 29 years and have people waiting in line to come to work.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

killerdecks said:


> Well I guess, if you have to crack heads because you just can't get anybody better, you won't last very long.
> But as for me, *MR CONDESCENDING*, I've been at it 29 years and have people waiting in line to come to work.


Yea cause he said he hires crack heads... Oh wait, no he didn't 

I get it when people misunderstand a SPOKEN conversation, but when something is WRITTEN and it can be READ over and over again, it still amazes me how people can still not comprehend.


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## pibe (Jan 21, 2013)

Stephen H said:


> JAWS,
> I whole heartedly agree with you there.
> 
> If everything is all on the up and up-what possible reason would there be for a contractor to take pains to disguise his subs as employees.


To be honest, if the GC uses the exact same subs for literally every job i can definitely see referring to them as your crew. Theyve built a work relationship through many years working together. I probably wouldnt think twice about it, i doubt they are trying to hide anything.



Stephen H said:


> JAWS,
> 
> But for a single trade contractor like roofing- or deck building-what logical reason could I make for using sub crews?
> 
> ...


I hadnt given that much thought before my first reply and i can definitely see where youre coming from there.

But you ask, " for a single trade contractor like roofing- or deck building-what logical reason could I make for using sub crews?"

Wouldnt a logical reason be wanting to do more volume? What do you do if you dont have enough people to do a big roof contract in (x) amount of time. The single trade subs would only be subbing out MORE single trade subs, so wouldnt it be logical to bring more guys in if you have more work then you alone can handle?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

QCCI said:


> This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. Are you that close minded that you think what works for you is the only way. I have several very talented and loyal employees and I would not be as successful as I have been without them, never could have done it using subcontractors only. On the work that we self perform I use employees, for specialty trades I use subcontractors. I think true contractors and craftsman use their own employees, that's what makes you a contractor, other than that you're just a used car salesman.
> 
> Haha man I did not want to get into this, but **** I had too.


You obviously didn't read my post. I said the discussion wasn't whether one could or couldn't be successful. I never said that employees are not loyal or that they cannot be talented. Go back and read my post, but this time try to look at it with less emotion.

I just said that subs are easier to manager and have less downsides. And maybe I should correct the notion of subs only. I never said subs only, I said that it's easier with subs and less of a hassle and expense.

And what makes me a contractor is that I am employed by people through a contract. What makes me a craftsman is my skill and experience in my field. And that really is your truth. You think less of a guy who hires only subs because that's not the way you do it. I never demeaned you or anyone else in this discussion for hiring employees. I just simply stated it's not equal.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RobertCDF said:


> Quit quoting the people on my ignore list, I can't stand to see the stupidity that flows from their keyboards, that's why I placed them on ignore.


The maturity is astounding from those that stand upon their own thrown.

So much for ignoring me....


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RobertCDF said:


> Yea cause he said he hires crack heads... Oh wait, no he didn't
> 
> I get it when people misunderstand a SPOKEN conversation, but when something is WRITTEN and it can be READ over and over again, it still amazes me how people can still not comprehend.


What Robert fails to understand that in the WRITTEN word inflection and tone are missed. I guess common sense doesn't run in his family. (That was typed sarcastically, BTW.)


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

pibe said:


> To be honest, if the GC uses the exact same subs for literally every job i can definitely see referring to them as your crew. Theyve built a work relationship through many years working together. I probably wouldnt think twice about it, i doubt they are trying to hide anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldnt a logical reason be wanting to do more volume? What do you do if you dont have enough people to do a big roof contract in (x) amount of time. The single trade subs would only be subbing out MORE single trade subs, so wouldnt it be logical to bring more guys in if you have more work then you alone can handle?


Yup Volume, which IMO seems to be a non issue for the, fine negative, IRS quoting, business types on this thread.

Seems like people are clueless, Like, "you mean it's possible to do more than 1 deck a week, well gees I can't do that, I have to do what all the others say".


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Yea, I can't hire other employees... It's completely impossible to add more staff. And if you went back and READ I HAVE SUBBED DECKS!!! OMG!!!! But it seems people can't comprehend what they are reading. Sometimes thing are written in black and white and some people still read it as blue and red, completely amazing. 

Fill out the SS-8 form Steve, if you're SO RIGHT they'll tell you that you are.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

From the IRS itself. 


> Form SS-8
> If, after reviewing the three categories of evidence, it is still unclear whether a worker is an employee or an independent contractor, Form SS-8, Determination of Worker Status for Purposes of Federal Employment Taxes and Income Tax Withholding (PDF) can be filed with the IRS. The form may be filed by either the business or the worker. The IRS will review the facts and circumstances and officially determine the worker’s status.
> Be aware that it can take at least six months to get a determination, but a business that continually hires the same types of workers to perform particular services may want to consider filing the Form SS-8 (PDF).


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

killerdecks said:


> Yup Volume, which IMO seems to be a non issue for the, fine negative, IRS quoting, business types on this thread.
> 
> Seems like people are clueless, Like, "you mean it's possible to do more than 1 deck a week, well gees I can't do that, I have to do what all the others say".


wait a second, I quoted the IRS...nah, you gotta be talking about Bobby. Never mind.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

RobertCDF said:


> Yea cause he said he hires crack heads... Oh wait, no he didn't
> 
> I get it when people misunderstand a SPOKEN conversation, but when something is WRITTEN and it can be READ over and over again, it still amazes me how people can still not comprehend.


I never said *HE* hired crack heads but he mentioned it in a negative way, like, maybe others do that use those terrible subcontractors, who only hire crack heads. That's what he implied. You know it, I know it, maybe you employ the same tactics when selling jobs. HMNNNNNNN.

Go read your PM's theres a message of high importance waiting for you.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

killerdecks said:


> Go read your PM's theres a message of high importance waiting for you.


I read it... Amazing maturity. :thumbsup:


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

RobertCDF said:


> Yea, I can't hire other employees... It's completely impossible to add more staff. And if you went back and READ I HAVE SUBBED DECKS!!! OMG!!!! But it seems people can't comprehend what they are reading. Sometimes thing are written in black and white and some people still read it as blue and red, completely amazing.
> 
> Fill out the SS-8 form Steve, if you're SO RIGHT they'll tell you that you are.


Go call em, your the one worried. I'm not, I'll survive. Need the phone #
here's a list for you to get started with.http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/IRS-Hotlines-and-Toll-Free-Numbers:


Service

Telephone number

Hours of operation




IRS Tax Help Line for Individuals

(800) 829-1040

M–F, 7:00 a.m.–7:00 p.m., local time



Business and Specialty Tax Line

(800) 829-4933

M–F, 7:00 a.m.–7:00 p.m., local time



Practitioner Priority Service (Practitioners Only)

(866) 860-4259

M–F, 7:00 a.m.–7:00 p.m., local time



e-Help (Practitioners Only)

(866) 255-0654


e-Help Desk Hours



Refund Hotline

(800) 829-1954

Automated service is available 24/7



Forms and Publications

(800) 829-3676

M–F, 7:00 a.m.–7:00 p.m., local time



National Taxpayer Advocate Help Line

(877) 777-4778

M–F, 7:00 a.m.–7:00 p.m., local time



Telephone Device for the Deaf (TDD): Forms, Tax Help, TAS

(800) 829-4059

M–F, 7:00 a.m.–7:00 p.m., local time



Electronic Federal Tax Payment System

(800) 555-4477

24/7



Tax Exempt and Government Entities (TEGE) Help Line

(877) 829-5500

M–F, 8:00 a.m.–5:00 p.m., local time



TeleTax Topics and Refund Status

(800) 829-4477

24/7



Forms 706 and 709 Help Line

(866) 699-4083

M–F, 7:00 a.m.–7:00 p.m., local time



Employer Identification Number (EIN)

(800) 829-4933

M–F, 7:00 a.m.–7:00 p.m., local time



Excise Tax and Form 2290 Help Line

(866) 699-4096

M–F, 8:00 a.m.–6:00 p.m., ET



Information Return Reporting

(866) 455-7438

M–F, 8:30 a.m.–4:30 p.m., ET



Disaster or Combat Zone Special Hotline

(866) 562-5227

M–F, 7:00 a.m.–7:00 p.m., local time



FBAR and Title 31 Help Line


(866) 270-0733
(313) 234-6146 (not toll free)

M–F, 8:00 a.m.–4:30 p.m., ET


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

You want me to call them on me? Or on you? I can do both, I don't mind. I'll fill out the SS-8 form. I know I won't get in trouble because I use PROPER classification.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

RobertCDF said:


> You want me to call them on me? Or on you? I can do both, I don't mind. I'll fill out the SS-8 form. I know I won't get in trouble because I use PROPER classification.


Go dwell on your PM as I am not allowed to use bad language out here. Than go do what you feel the need to. I've never cowered down from anybody, anything, and I won't start with you.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

I am unclear as to what you want me to do with the "call them" comment, Do you ME to call and TURN YOU IN? Or do you want ME to call and TURN ME IN? 

Please be a little clearer. I'm not going to turn you in, I don't give a flying flip, but you should probably look into the rules and laws instead of trying to insult people who do things different than you do.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

RobertCDF said:


> I am unclear as to what you want me to do with the "call them" comment, Do you ME to call and TURN YOU IN? Or do you want ME to call and TURN ME IN?
> 
> Please be a little clearer. I'm not going to turn you in, I don't give a flying flip, but you should probably look into the rules and laws instead of trying to insult people who do things different than you do.


MR CONDESCENDING, ME[SIZE="3" is sick and tired of the amount of poop given to HO's about sub's. Like, maybe they are bad, just because they are subs. Well they are not, using them is not bad, etc. The whole post was started about why using subs is been given a bad rap.

Subs aren't bad, employees aren't bad, the only one that is bad here is the owners themselves that let bad subs or bad employees run over them.

So now I guess we can burn another 9 pages up about that. 

If your not going to the IRS, what's with all your brandishing of them as a final weapon, quit using their name. This is much like bringing out a 45 auto waving it around just to be a badd ass. Don't bring your "guns" around me unless you are going to use them.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

pibe said:


> To be honest, if the GC uses the exact same subs for literally every job i can definitely see referring to them as your crew. Theyve built a work relationship through many years working together. I probably wouldnt think twice about it, i doubt they are trying to hide anything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pibe- that is absolutely a fair point. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that in the past I have self performed work, used subs and Used employees- often all at the same time.

--------- My thinking on this has evolved over time-----as far recently as 3 years ago we would occasionally uses a sub in the situation you describe. Basically we would hire a sub-but we wouldn't turn a project over to him-he would bring his crew and we would essentially merge our crews for the project. My employees and myself would handle the copper work, the chimney flashing, the skylights, the carpentry-----and the subs guys would handle the bulk of the slap and tack work-my lettered trucks and uniformed employees are there- his lettered trucks and uniformed employees would be there- everything out in the open.

But my thinking on this has evolved-----and so also our process. For several years now- if we can't do the work in house- we decline the job. We know the kind of work we want to do-and we know the process we want to use to accomplish it. Subs don't fit in with that.

The product and the process are equally important to me. I want to KNOW that everybody on my job is well paid for the work they do- I want to know they are covered by WC--- that they are covered by un-employment--- I want to know that they have medical insurance--- I want to KNOW that they can afford or will be able to afford to buy their own homes. Using subs won't accomplish this for me. It may be different elswhere- but here using subs in this situation just pretty much gaurantees that a group of guys are largely trapped in a underclass situation.

All in all there is no benefit to me to just take on more work in order to sub it out.

If I am too busy to take on additional work without subbing it out- I simply raises our rates.

Just my opinion and the way I prefer to work,
Stephen


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

It used to be 80% of monetary income.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

Stephen H said:


> Pibe- that is absolutely a fair point. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that in the past I have self performed work, used subs and Used employees- often all at the same time.
> 
> --------- My thinking on this has evolved over time-----as far recently as 3 years ago we would occasionally uses a sub in the situation you describe. Basically we would hire a sub-but we wouldn't turn a project over to him-he would bring his crew and we would essentially merge our crews for the project. My employees and myself would handle the copper work, the chimney flashing, the skylights, the carpentry-----and the subs guys would handle the bulk of the slap and tack work-my lettered trucks and uniformed employees are there- his lettered trucks and uniformed employees would be there- everything out in the open.
> 
> ...


I paid 2 of my lower class subs 100k ea last year. I bet they feel trapped as hell. Poor guys.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Pibe- I also wanted to mention that we frequently work with or need to match exterior trim/molding details that were once stock items- but that maybe haven't been commercially produced for 50 years.

To every extent possible we will reproduce those moldings in house

If the reproduction of the millwork is beyond our ability- then we explain exactly which company will be reproducing the work for us---- so we won't be misleading the homeowner about what we are doing.

Stephen


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

killerdecks said:


> Subs aren't bad, employees aren't bad, the only one that is bad here is the owners themselves that let bad subs or bad employees run over them.


We AGREE!!! 

I never said they were bad, I gave answers as to why homeowners can perceive them as bad. YOU said that subs would do better quality than employees. Go back and read YOUR OWN posts.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

killerdecks said:


> I paid 2 of my lower class subs 100k ea last year. I bet they feel trapped as hell. Poor guys.


 Maybe you did- maybe you didn't---so what?

my concern is for the schlubs working for your "subs"

Stephen


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

killerdecks said:


> If your not going to the IRS, what's with all your brandishing of them as a final weapon, quit using their name. This is much like bringing out a 45 auto waving it around just to be a badd ass. Don't bring your "guns" around me unless you are going to use them.


Not knowing for yourself the rules and regulations that ALL businesses are to comply with is foolish, I don't give a crap who you are, you could be Norm Abrams and if he subbed/employeed people and hadn't read the IRS guidelines then I would call him a fool.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

Stephen H said:


> Maybe you did- maybe you didn't---so what?
> 
> my concern is for the schlubs working for your "subs"
> 
> Stephen


Unfortunately in society there are, cheifs and there are indians, There are masta's and slaves. 

Everybodys has to learn somewhere and I am not paying for their mistakes, standing around, or whatever it is they perceive to be a work day. That what the *SUB* crew leaders do.

I sell, design, advertise, provide building materials.

When to sclubs as you called them care to pay attention, work and learn the trade they too can be *SUBS*, Until than they can grovel in their pain. 

The opportunity is there, they just need to recognize that fact otherwise they will be schlubs all their life by choice.


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## Calgaryfence (Feb 28, 2011)

I use employees mostly because I can pay them about half of what I would pay subs.

I would have to give subcontractors around 90% of the gross job price (including materials). But when I get employees to build a job I only pay out around 66% of the gross job price (including materials). The difference adds up to 10's of thousands of dollars per year.

I will gladly go through the "hassles" of establishing good employees for the extra 10's of thousands of dollars per season I make from doing that.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

killerdecks said:


> Unfortunately in society there are, cheifs and there are indians, There are masta's and slaves.
> 
> Everybodys has to learn somewhere and I am not paying for their mistakes, standing around, or whatever it is they perceive to be a work day. That what the *SUB* crew leaders do.
> 
> ...


 Killer- that's your world view- it's not mine.

I am not religous--------- but there is a saying-"there but for the grace of god,go I"-----

I am pretty happy with the way my life has worked out, all in all
However

If I had been a few IQ points lower,
Or if my parents had not set a good example of work ethic,
or I had gone to worse schools,
or if I had worse contacts
or if i had poorer health
if i was afraid of heights

IF- any number of things the result could have been way different

sometimes schlubs are schlubs because of the choices they made

And sometimes they are schlubs because of circumstances beyond their controll.

I want to work with slate, with ceramic roof tiles, with copper, with cedar, with redwood

I want to work with guys who think those things are cool as well

I want to work with guys who can own their own homes, who have decent health care, who can afford to decently educate their children---------with guys who have time to run, or bike, or rock climb.

Subscribing to your world view wouldn't accomplish that for me----subs wouldn't accomplish that for me.

If it works for you-- that's fine-but it's not for me.

All in all, I don't think you are entirely fine with it either or you wouldn't have spent some much time in this thread, back pedaling,mis-stating others remarks,revising your claims, twisting things around etc. to try to convince others of your position.

"me thinks thou doth protest to much"

But best wishes anyway,
Stephen


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## pibe (Jan 21, 2013)

Stephen H said:


> But my thinking on this has evolved-----and so also our process. For several years now- if we can't do the work in house- we decline the job. We know the kind of work we want to do-and we know the process we want to use to accomplish it. Subs don't fit in with that.



This is exactly how i am and have always been. I love what i do, i love working by myself or with a partner if needed. But i will not fault a man for wanting to make exponentially more money than me by taking on much more work. His reputation is still the one on the line and as long as he is giving his customers the quality they expect from him then i dont see any problem whatsoever. And taking on that kind of volume is just impossible with employees in my opinion. I think these are some of the points tnt was trying to get across. 

But to be honest, it sounds like u guys just have a bunch of crappy subs in your areas that dont care about their work. I like to think that if someone chooses to master a specific trade then they enjoy it and should try to produce results to the best of their knowledge. And since they have spent years mastering said trade while others stretch themselves out over a number..then they should be better equipped to handle the task. And my line of thinking there extends over to specific trades (decks) hiring out more subs under them. In a perfect world the deck subs are going to do the best deck they know how, and the subs they hire out for other work will be like minded...so theoretically produce like quality results. (another pro of using the subs is you can just not use them if they are not up to your standards. IMO finding a good quality sub will benefit greatly. Another pro in the sub category would be that subs are going to be doing other work as well on their own most likely as well as talking to other subs and contractors etc... and if you are in good relations, will be recommending you to other people. I dont think there is as much opportunity for employees to gain you extra work because they are going to be in contact with relatively the exact same people you are. just my opinion)


Sorry i got a bit off topic there maybe haha..but yes i do agree with you on only taking on what you feel comfortable with. I just dont see a problem with doing it the other way.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Stephen H said:


> Maybe you did- maybe you didn't---so what?
> 
> my concern is for the schlubs working for your "subs"
> 
> Stephen


Sorry, I have enough to worry about concerning my own company and families well being to worry about how my subs handle their employees.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Sorry, I have enough to worry about concerning my own company and families well being to worry about how my subs handle their employees.


 good point- that's why I am not using subs.
Stephen


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I shall say I have a lot less headaches with my subs and can make the same amount of money as with my employees.

I also wouldn't have any subs on any of my jobs if they weren't as good as my regular employees would be. I just don't get why anyone is arguing the difference.

I assume some of you then have never done work for any other contractor because at your point you then become a subcontractor and with your logic, you won't do as good of a job for whatever reason.

This year I am making a switch to nearly ALL subcontractors who each specialize in either roofing, siding, gutters, windows & doors and also framing, concrete and carpentry for my garage deals I am working on.

I will gladly have anyone look at any of my subcontractors work and compare it to their own employees. I know it definitely won't be any worse.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Stephen H said:


> good point- that's why I am not using subs.
> Stephen


You make no sense. So you would rather hire employees worrying about how they would be treated as a subs employee? You are the one that says you worry about them, so how does that make it easier?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You make no sense. So you would rather hire employees worrying about how they would be treated as a subs employee? You are the one that says you worry about them, so how does that make it easier?


I think his point is that he can be sure that as his employee, they are being paid fairly and treated well. Even though a sub may perform the work expertly, the GC would have no say in how they treat their employees.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Warren said:


> I think his point is that he can be sure that as his employee, they are being paid fairly and treated well. Even though a sub may perform the work expertly, the GC would have no say in how they treat their employees.


I don't hire subs that would ever treat their employees bad or not pay them what they are worth.

Another negative stigma with subs. It implies that when I hire subs I don't know the owner, how their company operates or if they have good employees. That's just ridiculous. It's not like a guy pulls up in a truck and I hire their company. I rarely use a sub that I don't know personally or have a high recommendation from someone that I do know personally.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I don't hire subs that would ever treat their employees bad or not pay them what they are worth.
> 
> Another negative stigma with subs. It implies that when I hire subs I don't know the owner, how their company operates or if they have good employees. That's just ridiculous. It's not like a guy pulls up in a truck and I hire their company. I rarely use a sub that I don't know personally or have a high recommendation from someone that I do know personally.


I wasn't accusing you of that. I work primarily as a sub (framing) for about 3 or 4 contractors on a regular basis. Most of them know most of my guys by name. I think where this gets away is when a contractor is not on site during the construction phase. The final product may turn out nice, but who knows what was sacrificed to get there.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Warren said:


> I wasn't accusing you of that. I work primarily as a sub (framing) for about 3 or 4 contractors on a regular basis. Most of them know most of my guys by name. I think where this gets away is when a contractor is not on site during the construction phase. The final product may turn out nice, but who knows what was sacrificed to get there.


Warren, forgive my tone, my comment was not directed at you, but rather Stephen and his line of thinking.

I agree with everything you just said.


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## pibe (Jan 21, 2013)

Warren said:


> I think his point is that he can be sure that as his employee, they are being paid fairly and treated well. Even though a sub may perform the work expertly, the GC would have no say in how they treat their employees.


Not trying to start an argument, but i find it odd talking about fair pay when hes agreeing with someone using employees because he can pay them half of what he pays subs.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> ......
> Another negative stigma with subs. It implies that when I hire subs I don't know the owner, how their company operates or if they have good employees.



Not directed at you TNT, but your comment has a direct bearing upon that which the OP began this thread.

So, from where did the customer develop their ideas about subcontractors? Why do they believe, "sub bad, employee good?"

Maybe the customer's distrust of contractors in general just cannot tolerate another level such as the subcontract.

This is almost certainly a problem more prevalent in the trade specific contract.

Off hand I can think of a job where the customer was concerned that I would not be subbing the roofing (standing seam) but was fully aware and comfortable with the subbing of spray foam insulation and gutters. 

BTW, the insulation was around $12k so it was a fairly significant piece of the project.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Mr Latone said:


> Off hand I can think of a job where the customer was concerned that I would not be subbing the roofing (standing seam) but was fully aware and comfortable with the subbing of spray foam insulation and gutters.
> 
> BTW, the insulation was around $12k so it was a fairly significant piece of the project.



For clarification... The customer WANTED you to sub the standing seam? But instead you were performing that in house?


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

RobertCDF said:


> For clarification... The customer WANTED you to sub the standing seam? But instead you were performing that in house?


No, I believe they would have looked elsewhere.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

RobertCDF said:


> For clarification... The customer WANTED you to sub the standing seam? But instead you were performing that in house?


Re-reading my post I can see how it could confuse. The customer did not want the roofer to be one whose work was sub-contracted, yet the other trades weren't an issue at all.

As a matter of fact, they were in contact with at least one other insulator. The customer preferred that I bring in the insulator if it meant for a smooth install.

I guess my point is that a customer's attitude toward the sub is not black and white.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Mr Latone said:


> Re-reading my post I can see how it could confuse. The customer did not want the roofer to be one whose work was sub-contracted, yet the other trades weren't an issue at all.
> 
> As a matter of fact, they were in contact with at least one other insulator. The customer preferred that I bring in the insulator if it meant for a smooth install.
> 
> I guess my point is that a customer's attitude toward the sub is not black and white.


I'm not sure what your company name is but it might have something to do with it. If your name was "Ken's roofing" they might expect you to self perform the roofing, if your name was "Ken's roofing, gutters, and insulation" they'd probably expect you to do all 3 in house.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

Mr Latone said:


> So, from where did the customer develop their ideas about subcontractors? Why do they believe, "sub bad, employee good?"
> 
> This is almost certainly a problem more prevalent in the trade specific contract.
> 
> Off hand I can think of a job where the customer was concerned that I would not be subbing the roofing (standing seam) but was fully aware and comfortable with the subbing of spray foam insulation and gutters.


 Maybe its the clean air of Western NY,or maybe its from being "old and tired"
but Mr.Latone always seems to give a level headed response in his posts.

I'm sure most HO's understand that subs are necessary for larger,more complicated projects.The negative ideas of subs could arise from not 
knowing or having met the subs,feeling they may be dealing with an unnecessary
third party,or paying more than they should because of dealing with a third party.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

Don't you guys work, how are you properly managing your employees if your sitting here all day posting.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

killerdecks said:


> Don't you guys work, how are you properly managing your employees if your sitting here all day posting.


It's called Saturday... Seeing as how I like to take time off so do my employees. Contrary to your belief I am not an @ss hole that makes my guys work M-S for 12 hrs a day.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

killerdecks said:


> Don't you guys work, how are you properly managing your employees if your sitting here all day posting.


I am in the office today. My crew is at home :thumbsup: 

Tuesday if Im posting its because I have bad azz leads who are running chit while Im checking CT as a break from cranking out bids....

Actually Tuesday Im doing a shower.....

But theoretically...... :laughing:


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

Jaws said:


> *Actually Tuesday Im doing a shower.....*


Once a week eh?


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

Well holy gees, I sure hope the moderators saw you calling me and *A$$ HOLE *and take appropriate action.

According to the rules of engagement, for *SUBCONTRACTORS*, and I follow them well, because I use *SUBCONTRACTORS*, it is not for me to tell them when to work or go home. I give them a job and they go do it. In a timely fahion I may add, realizing full well that this is seasonal work and that in the winter they can have all the time off they want.

For all you know your employees may be motivated and want to work on Saturdays and Sundays, or is it, you twisting things around, again, don''t allow them to work on the weekends as you will have to pay overtime. Than you call me names because you are too cheap to give them all the work they may want.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Lord almighty. Shut it.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

killerdecks said:


> Well holy gees, I sure hope the moderators saw you calling me and *A$$ HOLE *and take appropriate action.
> 
> According to the rules of engagement, for *SUBCONTRACTORS*, and I follow them well, because I use *SUBCONTRACTORS*, it is not for me to tell them when to work or go home. I give them a job and they go do it. In a timely fahion I may add, realizing full well that this is seasonal work and that in the winter they can have all the time off they want.
> 
> For all you know your employees may be motivated and want to work on Saturdays and Sundays, or is it, you twisting things around, again, don''t allow them to work on the weekends as you will have to pay overtime. Than you call me names because you are too cheap to give them all the work they may want.


No difference. A sub would pay his employees overtime on weekends as well. I have had my employees work for two week stints when I wasn't even in the country. I made money, and jobs rolled smoothly. People are people. Subs or employees, there are good ones on each side.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

My customers know that responsibility for quality ultimately rests with me, personally. I've never gotten any feedback that they care about subs one way or the other.


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Where is the police with all this online beating up for no reason who cares :whistling . It's the weekend enjoy . Life is to short . . . .


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

killerdecks said:


> Well holy gees, I sure hope the moderators saw you calling me and *A$$ HOLE *and take appropriate action.
> 
> According to the rules of engagement, for *SUBCONTRACTORS*, and I follow them well, because I use *SUBCONTRACTORS*, it is not for me to tell them when to work or go home. I give them a job and they go do it. In a timely fahion I may add, realizing full well that this is seasonal work and that in the winter they can have all the time off they want.
> 
> For all you know your employees may be motivated and want to work on Saturdays and Sundays, or is it, you twisting things around, again, don''t allow them to work on the weekends as you will have to pay overtime. Than you call me names because you are too cheap to give them all the work they may want.


Can you please point out where I called you an @ss hole? I don't see it. Please RE-READ my post and understand what it says. 

I never said you make your guys work M-S for 12 hours. I SIMPLY SAID THAT I DO NOT MAKE MY GUYS WORK M-S for 12 hour days, THUS THE REASON I CAN BE AT HOME ON MY COMPUTER. 

If what I said strikes a nerve to you... not my fault.


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