# A Patriotic Real Estate Investor that refuses to hire American Labor



## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Daggum we’re on a roll right now. 🤣

This is like the third in a row that came here thinking one thing, and ran into quite another. 😳👍


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## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> Ran across a real estate investor who is purchasing lots of properties in the Hartford Connecticut area. He indicated a level of frustration with the trades in their availability and rates. He told me a story of a plumber who told him that he would not put on his pants in the morning for No less than $150. This investor found this attitude vile and disgusting and now only hires foreign born labor that legally immigrated. He believes they did not grow up with a sense of entitlement and are willing to work harder for their money than those born here.
> 
> Any thoughts on encouraging trades at large to improve their image and attitudes?


I’m in the hartford Area market and I know a tremendous amount of contractors in the Hartford area, what’s his name?


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

I won’t even start my truck for less than ten tarps.


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Tree fiddy getting a run for it's money now.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Snobnd said:


> I’m in the hartford Area market and I know a tremendous amount of contractors in the Hartford area, what’s his name?


Tell the truth my friend. You took the red pill and now that you're in the matrix you will refer them and make 50% net.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TxElectrician said:


> Tell the truth my friend. You took the red pill and now that you're in the matrix you will refer them and make 50% net.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk



Man I just spit my coffee all over my console. Damn that chit was spot on lol


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

reggi said:


> I won’t even start my truck for less than ten tarps.



I won't pay 10 tarps. Price was 7 tarps last time these damn subs always going up on me


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## wazez (Oct 25, 2008)

reggi said:


> A buddy of mine is a flipper. Now, I've bought and sold real estate, at auction and otherwise, but I'm not a "flipper". But we shoot the **** sometimes about business and the stuff he says makes me cringe. Low dollar buy-to-sell developers (flippers) want everything done for craigslist crackhead prices, and that's pretty much the end of the story. They want to find a seasoned guy with tools to show up right away and use the investor's crappy materials to do ace work for $25/hr all in.
> 
> Slumlords are cheap too but they don't hire much out in my experience. They rarely do any work on the property at all. I respect slumlords a lot more than flippers. They know their line and they walk it. If you move into a property that's a slum, and has been a slum since before you were born, don't expect the landlord to fix anything with materials costing more than duct tape and you'll have no problems. It's a partnership. You need a place and can't afford anything nice. They need a tenant and don't want to do any capital expenditures. Win win.
> 
> ...


There are bad flippers and investors just as there are bad contractors...really depends which side of the fence your standing on. 

On a side note if and when I can quit doing work for gc and homeowners to do my own projects weather it be spec, flips or just maintaining my own rentals is a day I look forward to.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

If you find yourself stuck in the matrix, and the timer is at 10 seconds, do you cut the red pill, or the blue pilll?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Other than a light rehab on a double wide I lived in I've sincerely never started a remodel on a project that I own personally and not gutted to stud, had rewired, new plumbing, spray foam, new rock, windows, doors and hvac etc... . My dad's same way, at that point we trash the margin so just keep and rent 

Worst flipper of all time


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Jaws said:


> Worst flipper of all time


"A man's got to know his limitations."


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Flip, rent, it's pretty much all the same to me if it's an old house with plaster and lath. Kitchen, bedrooms, baths are going to be new. What plaster comes off is planned room by room. Everything comes out level 5 smooth.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

wazez said:


> There are bad flippers and investors just as there are bad contractors...really depends which side of the fence your standing on.
> 
> On a side note if and when I can quit doing work for gc and homeowners to do my own projects weather it be spec, flips or just maintaining my own rentals is a day I look forward to.


When you make it big, don’t forget where you came from, my friend. We’ve all got families to feed.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> If you find yourself stuck in the matrix, and the timer is at 10 seconds, do you cut the red pill, or the blue pilll?


No, now you’ve gone and got it confused with Inception, or Time Bandits or something.


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## Resta (Feb 11, 2009)

Even those who are self medicated.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

hdavis said:


> Flip, rent, it's pretty much all the same to me if it's an old house with plaster and lath. Kitchen, bedrooms, baths are going to be new. What plaster comes off is planned room by room. Everything comes out level 5 smooth.


Nothing wrong with that. Just don’t dump all the old tires you inherited with the sale into the septic tank or replace any pex with garden hoses.

Obviously it’s always the stuff you can’t see that is suspect in a flip and that’s why I don’t trust that type of transaction. A GC isn’t going to do scummy stuff to save $500 if he wants to stay in business. A flipper can do shoddy work with relative impunity because they don’t have a brand to protect. There will always be another buyer for their low volume business.


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## wazez (Oct 25, 2008)

reggi said:


> When you make it big, don’t forget where you came from, my friend. We’ve all got families to feed.


Im not so intent on making it big as just desiring a certain peace of mind and freedom !


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

Jaws said:


> I won't pay 10 tarps. Price was 7 tarps last time these damn subs always going up on me


Howsabout I do it for 9 tarps and I’ll give you one back as a gift.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

wazez said:


> Im not so intent on making it big as just desiring a certain peace of mind and freedom !


Definitely a good goal. I’m all about building a rental portfolio. For a good time read “Section 8 Bible”.

IDK if it’ll blow your mind or anything but the author has some neat insights.


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

reggi said:


> Howsabout I do it for 9 tarps and I’ll give you one back as a gift.


Now, we talkin the good Harbor Freight blues or what here.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> Everyone has families to feed including immigrants. Americans seem to charge significantly higher than immigrants.


As we should- we have a skill set that the people hiring us don't have or don't want to use. 

Immigrants first priority is not going to be living the good life - someone who grew up here doesn't think that way. I'm not going to make significantly less than my white collar clients and I'm sure they'd love to see my wife in a beater and me in a busted up mini van but my wife's riding on the same leather seats that dudes wife is because I understand leverage 

Why would a tradesman lower their rates to compete with someone whose standard of living is lower to get a better price for someone else whose making more than they are, basically subsidizing their lifestyles through sacrificing their own


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> In certain areas, flippers are the only people getting housing on the market. I think you know this already.


 We tear them down here. 4 of my last 10 new builds or teardowns, have at least 2 other teardowns coming in 2022.

May not be able to get him done until 2023 though, they have to wait during certain phases for me to find time between my 2nd breakfast and lunch break to drive out there and take pictures. Such a pain in the ass. @reggi


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

You tell him, Shark Boy!


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> Hmmm. This investor isn't looking for anyone to work for free. He just wants reasonable market rates and to not pay higher just because an american contractor has an inflated view of their self worth.


This site is for professional contractors visit DIY Home Improvement Forum or I believe there's a site called "Flipperssuck.com"


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Annnd………I was right.

Excuse me a minute while I pat myself on the back. 😳🤣


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Any Mod feel free to sticky this: 🤣🤣🤣🤣






Dear new poster: We have all been here a while.

You are not the first angry homeowner to come on here and whine about “labor “ and “materials” breakdowns, while pretending to be a contractor. You’re still wrong, and we still won’t break them down.

You are also not the first flipper to come on here and bichh that we won’t work for free. You, as well, are still wrong, and most, if not all, the qualified members here will not so much as give you a bid, let alone work for you.

And, last but not least, most of the established members here have been around the trades for years and even decades. You don’t have some secret wormhole in the universe, where we can all make millions of dollars a year, working 2 days a month. No, I won’t sign up for your seminar, and yes, we’ve all heard of insurance work.

If you still feel you have something to say, carry on.

Happy posting.


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## 623Carpenter (Oct 1, 2021)

Dudes first post on a contractor forum was complaining about contractor attitudes and he expects to not get roasted. I f#[email protected] hate egotistical arrogant flippers. Probably doesn't even pull permits.


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## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> This investor only uses contractors with licenses. The only issue is that certain contractors believe their self-worth is higher than reality.


Quality versus quantity, he hires one guy with a license and the rest of the crew are illegal aliens keeping costs down, I see it all the time in Hartford, some of these guys live 12 in a two bedroom apartment, they don’t pay state federal taxes only the guy at the top provides insurance .

Working in Hartford you have to have one guy watching your tools while the rest of the guys work otherwise when you come back to your truck they will be gone!

I have spent my entire 45 year career in that area, so if you only came here to piss off a bunch of contractors who have worked their butt off and know exactly what the job market should provide, and the New York real estate investors have no problem paying the wages because they are half of what they are in New York!


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## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> Any Mod feel free to sticky this: 🤣🤣🤣🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think he’s full of it!


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> This investor only uses contractors with licenses. The only issue is that certain contractors believe their self-worth is higher than reality.


Sounds more like the investor wants dirt cheap prices so they can take the profit instead of it going to the people who actually do the work.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> What do you see wrong with flippers? They are taking real estate and getting it back onto the market. There is a massive shortage that no one else is solving for.


Mostly what I see wrong with flippers is someone doing the bare minimum, using the cheapest labor and materials to get their "investment" off their hands to cash out.

There are some people who do work for cheap. Mostly skilled people who don't know they should really be making much more.

And James, please tell us your trade.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

If you have to cheap out, you bought wrong. A lot of people can't tell the difference between a good flip purchase and a bad one.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

hdavis said:


> If you have to cheap out, you bought wrong. A lot of people can't tell the difference between a good flip purchase and a bad one.


For at least 3 weeks.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

hdavis said:


> If you have to cheap out, you bought wrong. A lot of people can't tell the difference between a good flip purchase and a bad one.


 "But the home inspector didn't point those issues out". LMAO. 

Sorry to derail. 

Carry on.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

rselectric1 said:


> "But the home inspector didn't point those issues out". LMAO.
> 
> Sorry to derail.
> 
> Carry on.


This is actually part if what I've done. Look a house over for an investor, may be come up with a couple ways to go, and what budget would be needed.

My only miss was not spotting that the new panel and wiring was just tape spliced in the walls. Full electric redo instead of partial.

Priced for all mid or top line materials and good subs

Ideal is pretty much just paint in and out and new landscaping. No permits needed.

Electric fixture replacement incidental to a remodel can be done by anyone here, but I still have an electrician do it.

Simple math, what will the sale price be, what's the remodel going to cost, how much padding for build and market risk, how much profit. Subtract stuff out, and there is your all in purchase number. If they don't sell for that, don't buy it.

I did this for an investor on a duplex, and the offer was rejected. Investor bought another property instead. Less than a year later, the duplex sold for 20% less than my investor's offer.

There are plenty of foolish people on both sides of these transactions


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> Hmmm. This investor isn't looking for anyone to work for free. He just wants reasonable market rates and to not pay higher just because an american contractor has an inflated view of their self worth.


James... what are you basing "reasonable market rates" off of? I don't think you really understand how this all works... answer that question, and things will be clarified...

As to attitudes, you only gave us the one example of the plumber and $150 and the "investor" was apparently turned of by all American contractors going forward... doesn't really make sense, but...


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## Porterfarm (Apr 1, 2019)

So why do you care the ethnicity of the contractors you hire?
If you are looking for a better product/ service than what you have been getting or expecting. You may need to consider ponying up for a higher level of product and service...

There is a shortage of a good experienced people who don't mind working. Or the demand for them is greater than supply right now. 
Personally, I work my relationships, I'm quite busy, and most people are just waiting for me. This is not a unique situation. I know of others doing the same.
Contractor/customer relationships can be good long lasting relationships or one and done, bottom dollar relationships.

It maybe hard to grasp the concept, but a contractor/ client relationship can be a good investment or a bad investment...

Maybe you'll place a higher value on your next vendor relationship??


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## james.mcgovern.jr (Dec 3, 2021)

623Carpenter said:


> Dudes first post on a contractor forum was complaining about contractor attitudes and he expects to not get roasted. I f#[email protected] hate egotistical arrogant flippers. Probably doesn't even pull permits.


I consider the individual I posted about as absolutely brilliant and someone who I want to follow in their footsteps. Of course, I expected lots of ignorant posts and was hopeful that someone could provide insight into the attitudes of contractors and ways to mitigate it for learning purposes. I did not expect the blinders that many wear in the profession.


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## james.mcgovern.jr (Dec 3, 2021)

KAP said:


> James... what are you basing "reasonable market rates" off of? I don't think you really understand how this all works... answer that question, and things will be clarified...
> 
> As to attitudes, you only gave us the one example of the plumber and $150 and the "investor" was apparently turned of by all American contractors going forward... doesn't really make sense, but...


I thought it was cool that he decided to purchase Pro-Press equipment off ebay and hire a local high school student that attends the local trade high school (Prince Tech) as a lower-cost alternative. 

The best analogy that comes to mind right now is the days when you could get your local neighborhood kid to cut grass at $50 a lawn whereas professional lawn companies now want contracts and other stipulations that did not exist before.

His foreign contractors seem to go a little farther and not everything is a "change order". The agreement feels like they are happy with making their daily target rate. He purchases all of the material they need everyone is happy.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> Ran across a real estate investor who is purchasing lots of properties in the Hartford Connecticut area. He indicated a level of frustration with the trades in their availability and rates. He told me a story of a plumber who told him that he would not put on his pants in the morning for No less than $150. This investor found this attitude vile and disgusting and now only hires foreign born labor that legally immigrated. He believes they did not grow up with a sense of entitlement and are willing to work harder for their money than those born here.
> 
> Any thoughts on encouraging trades at large to improve their image and attitudes?


No way you’re getting a service call from anybody operating legally for under $150. You and I both know that’s what was meant by “would not put on his pants in the morning for…“. We can’t all have attended Charm School.


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## 623Carpenter (Oct 1, 2021)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> So why is an investor putting up capital wanting to maximize their return on investment a bad thing?


So when a contractor puts up capital to start a business and wants to maximize profit so his business will survive he needs to adjust his attitude? [email protected]&k off. 

Flippers need us more than we need them.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

623Carpenter said:


> So when a contractor puts up capital to start a business and wants to maximize profit so his business will survive he needs to adjust his attitude? [email protected]&k off.
> 
> Flippers need us more than we need them.


Leverage 

This guy would be dead in a puddle of his own chit and blood framing on a real crew for a week lol


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Those Texans sure can paint a picture, lol.

Well said, Jaws


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## james.mcgovern.jr (Dec 3, 2021)

Snobnd said:


> I have spent my entire 45 year career in that area, so if you only came here to piss off a bunch of contractors who have worked their butt off and know exactly what the job market should provide, and the New York real estate investors have no problem paying the wages because they are half of what they are in New York!


You are correct. New Yorkers coming into Connecticut have caused ridicolous inflation in contractor rates due to their overpaying when they believe it is cheap. I am certain this will come to an end a year or so from now and there will be contractors taking aggressive haircuts on what they can charge.


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## james.mcgovern.jr (Dec 3, 2021)

Jaws said:


> Leverage
> 
> This guy would be dead in a puddle of his own chit and blood framing on a real crew for a week lol


Investors tend to work on higher-value activities. In the same sense the CEO of Pfizer will hire a contractor because he likely has zero time or interest in the work, so investors are the same.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> Investors tend to work on higher-value activities. In the same sense the CEO of Pfizer will hire a contractor because he likely has zero time or interest in the work, so investors are the same.



So? I build multi million dollar homes - all over this site bud. I don't ask my contractors for a discount and most of my subs are top 5% for pricing


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## 623Carpenter (Oct 1, 2021)

Jaws said:


> Leverage
> 
> This guy would be dead in a puddle of his own chit and blood framing on a real crew for a week lol


This guy couldn't frame a picture much less the wall it hangs on.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

623Carpenter said:


> This guy couldn't frame a picture much less the wall it hangs on.


Stolen 😆


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## JoeStanton (Sep 24, 2008)

Difference is the CEO of Pfizer isn't going to buy the tools to have a high school kid make the medicine. Your trying to go around paying to use bottom feeders, great another scumbag to leach off the industry. If you don't like their price do it yourself if code allows. When you get sued because a unlicensed/uninsured sub gets hurt don't come crying here.

Using licensed, insured, knowledgeable subs takes time to build the team. I've had years my guys made more than I did. Once the team is in place and people know your the only guy to call it's a whole new ball game. There is nothing wrong with flipping real estate but don't try and make your money off the trades. You either offer a service or you don't, that's construction. You wanna be a middle man get into the stock market or commodities.

You might want to check with your insurance agent before letting high school kids do the work.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Ed Corrigan said:


> Those Texans sure can paint a picture, lol.
> 
> Well said, Jaws


very true let us not forget " soft as a baby's neck"


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

Flippers need contractors more than contractors need flippers.

Flippers call contractors, contractors don’t call flippers.

Nothing wrong with wanting to maximize profits, but flippers generally want to do it at the expense of others. That’s why anyone who has been around more than six months normally stays away from flippers. Flippers will take advantage of anyone who will let them.

Flippers need to mend their reputation a lot more than contractors do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> We can do name calling but that is a sign of unintelligence.



And yet, you're the one who wants to be a slimeball flipper. Not too smart, IMHO.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Funny, my buddy ran flips for over 20 years day in and day out. Beautiful work (not high end beautiful). He was a perfectionist. He did it right. The OP wants to go the investor route, but without crews or skills.

Good plan, go for it.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

****ing poser paper Boi. 

Banned to DIY - contractor my ass mf couldn't contract a latte at Starbucks


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

No, but he probably could contract a disease at the local poke and sniff.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

james.mcgovern.jr said:


> I thought it was cool that he decided to purchase equipment off ebay and hire a local high school student that attends the local trade high school (Prince Tech) as a lower-cost alternative.
> 
> The best analogy that comes to mind right now is the days when you could get your local neighborhood kid to cut grass at $50 a lawn whereas professional lawn companies now want contracts and other stipulations that did not exist before.
> 
> His foreign contractors seem to go a little farther and not everything is a "change order". The agreement feels like they are happy with making their daily target rate. He purchases all of the material they need everyone is happy.


James, it seems you have been banned even though you said you do contractor work part time... that said, what does any of that have to do with what I asked you? I asked you...

*What are you basing "reasonable market rates" off of? *​
How are you determining what "market rates" are to even determine that you are NOT paying "market rate", let alone "reasonable market rates" (another factor)... If you want to be a flipper, you have to be able to answer that to be even able to ascertain the value in what you are doing...

As a business, there is nothing wrong with maximizing value for anything, but not at the expense of the final product... What that means is, if you can find a qualified individual, who does good work at what you consider "market rates", by all means use them... but there is a reason the phrase "you get what you pay for" exists because someone who is qualified, does good work, and is operating above board, knows their worth and is generally not the least expensive around... those conditions don't generally go hand-in-hand... exceptions to every rule...

Nothing exists in a vacuum... there is a reason the lowest paid contractors are actually the higher risk... simply put, whether operating legitimate or not, if someone price is low, the next questions as a flipper you need to ask are...
​1) Are you licensed?​2) Are you insured? (otherwise you are exposed as an investor) - they should be able to provide you with a Certificate of Insurance... if they have employees, do they have Workmans Comp (Otherwise, again, you are exposed as an investor)​3) Do they pull permits?​4) Do they warranty their products and/or service?​5) Do they charge by the hour or by the project?​6) How do you handle your schedule? (someone who has multiple jobs going can cause havoc to a flipping schedule)​
There are a host of issues that are important, and just like there are contractors with a good reputation and ones who operate without regard to one, there are the same when it comes to flippers... but keep in mind, the buyers of your flipped property are no different than you... you get what you pay for... the question you have to ask yourself is do you want that to be a good reputation/business model that leads to a premium and bidding wars or one that doesn't take reputation into regard and whose "flips" are advised against (reputations happen either way) by realtors...


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## Mjaw (Apr 23, 2020)

623Carpenter said:


> I ran across a RE investor this morning. I'm frustrated with his expectations regarding scheduling and at how little he was willing to pay. How do we get these investors to improve their attitudes and unwillingness to pay experienced tradesmen for quality work?


Real Estate investors are notorious cheapskates , i dont bother with estimates for them.


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## Gene Murray (Jul 21, 2021)

623Carpenter said:


> I ran across a RE investor this morning. I'm frustrated with his expectations regarding scheduling and at how little he was willing to pay. How do we get these investors to improve their attitudes and unwillingness to pay experienced tradesmen for quality work?


Simple. Don’t waste you valuable time with that cheap sonofabitch


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

You mean he wants you to work for $15/hr and give him top priority? And you didn't jump at that?


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## JoeStanton (Sep 24, 2008)

RE investors are the worst, the pay is awful and they want it done yesterday. You're better off taking a job than doing their work, around these parts anyway. 

As far as changing their attitude, make more money on other jobs so you can afford to do their work.😀 I have never met a RE investor that wouldn't sell their first born for the right price.


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## Djea3 (Jul 6, 2020)

623Carpenter said:


> I ran across a RE investor this morning. I'm frustrated with his expectations regarding scheduling and at how little he was willing to pay. How do we get these investors to improve their attitudes and unwillingness to pay experienced tradesmen for quality work?


You do not. It is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain reasonable bid values from these low life scum that have been taught by some investor group that no contractor should charge over 12.50 an hour per man regardless of trade.
How to deal with them:
Explain that you always obtain permits, and the fees involved. Then explain that you file pre-lien notices and notices of commencement to protect the OWNER and Contractor from third party fraud. Explain the costs. Then tell them that you charge $150 per partial lien release and 100 per full lien release. Then explain the difference between T&M and bidding and change orders.
I guaranty that each of those you charge to every home owner in a remodel, why would you do less for some wealthy idiot attempting to screw you and the buyer?
I also guaranty that the MOMENT you mention pre-lien notices they will RUN. Ends the entire issue.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

Djea3 said:


> You do not. It is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain reasonable bid values from these low life scum that have been taught by some investor group that no contractor should charge over 12.50 an hour per man regardless of trade.
> How to deal with them:
> Explain that you always obtain permits, and the fees involved. Then explain that you file pre-lien notices and notices of commencement to protect the OWNER and Contractor from third party fraud. Explain the costs. Then tell them that you charge $150 per partial lien release and 100 per full lien release. Then explain the difference between T&M and bidding and change orders.
> I guaranty that each of those you charge to every home owner in a remodel, why would you do less for some wealthy idiot attempting to screw you and the buyer?
> I also guaranty that the MOMENT you mention pre-lien notices they will RUN. Ends the entire issue.


He was just joking


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Djea3 said:


> You do not. It is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain reasonable bid values from these low life scum that have been taught by some investor group that no contractor should charge over 12.50 an hour per man regardless of trade.
> How to deal with them:
> Explain that you always obtain permits, and the fees involved. Then explain that you file pre-lien notices and notices of commencement to protect the OWNER and Contractor from third party fraud. Explain the costs. Then tell them that you charge $150 per partial lien release and 100 per full lien release. Then explain the difference between T&M and bidding and change orders.
> I guaranty that each of those you charge to every home owner in a remodel, why would you do less for some wealthy idiot attempting to screw you and the buyer?
> I also guaranty that the MOMENT you mention pre-lien notices they will RUN. Ends the entire issue.


Or just walk away laughing at them.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Djea3 said:


> You do not. It is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain reasonable bid values from these low life scum that have been taught by some investor group that no contractor should charge over 12.50 an hour per man regardless of trade.
> How to deal with them:
> Explain that you always obtain permits, and the fees involved. Then explain that you file pre-lien notices and notices of commencement to protect the OWNER and Contractor from third party fraud. Explain the costs. Then tell them that you charge $150 per partial lien release and 100 per full lien release. Then explain the difference between T&M and bidding and change orders.
> I guaranty that each of those you charge to every home owner in a remodel, why would you do less for some wealthy idiot attempting to screw you and the buyer?
> I also guaranty that the MOMENT you mention pre-lien notices they will RUN. Ends the entire issue.


Isn't it easier to just say no?...


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## Nick1001 (Nov 4, 2012)

Mordekyle said:


> Flippers need contractors more than contractors need flippers.
> 
> Flippers call contractors, contractors don’t call flippers.
> 
> ...


I used to install crown moulding on cabinets for a friend that flipped houses. One I’m climbing up my 4’ ladder and use the top of the cabinet to balance myself, the cabinet pulled right off the wall. Took about a minute to find the stud to put a screw in.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

TimothyDriscoll said:


> If we look at his situation, we can understand why he decided. Immigrants are the ones who can do the work without problems because they need money and are under the control of the state. Many of them don't have parents who will give them money if they need to, unlike people who live in the country from the day they were born.


That's quite an oversimplified first post...


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

TimothyDriscoll said:


> under the control of the state


What planet are you on that the State has control? They have always been free range sucking off the Gubment if that’s what your implying. What gives you the impression any human don’t need cake to live on?


Mike


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

TimothyDriscoll said:


> *If we look at his situation, we can understand why he decided. Immigrants are the ones who can do the work without problems because they need money and are under the control of the state. Many of them don't have parents who will give them money if they need to, unlike people who live in the country from the day they were born.*





HaryGreen said:


> *If we look at his situation, we can understand why he decided. Immigrants are the ones who can do the work without problems because they need money and are under the control of the state. Many of them don't have parents who will give them money if they need to, unlike people who live in the country from the day they were born.* After getting some investment help from Fundrise vs DiversyFund vs CrowdStreet, I also started my business as a real estate, and I can easily put myself in the shoes of your friend.


Gee, one of these things looks just like the other... from two different posters? and then a concealed Ad for a fund-raising site?


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

A mere coincidence they are exactly the same...........I don't think so........


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