# Sherwin Williams Exterior Super Paint - Spray & Back Roll Method



## jenn2up2down (Oct 28, 2011)

Used Sherwin Williams Exterior Super Paint in Satin to repaint a stucco home using the spray and back roll method. Need documentation supporting this method is equivalent to two coats of paint. Any help or point in the right direction will be wonderful.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

jenn2up2down said:


> Used Sherwin Williams Exterior Super Paint in Satin to repaint a stucco home using the spray and back roll method. Need documentation supporting this method is equivalent to two coats of paint. Any help or point in the right direction will be wonderful.


But it's not.


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## jenn2up2down (Oct 28, 2011)

Documentation of approved and adequate application.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

You could have done it with a wet mil gauge when it was wet. You can pick them up at any SW store. With the paint allready on I would think you would need to call your SW rep and see if they can measure dry mils.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm assuming you are asking how to prove you put 2 coats of paint on the house? And that you put it on properly.


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

How can this be equivalent to two coats of paint ?? Paint thickness is determined in mil thickness both wet and dry. A little difficult to determine with stucco however. 

The application you describe is one coat. You may have your terminology / applications confused. Nearly all spray apps call for brushing / rolling into the work. That is spraying does not in of itself penetrate evenly into most any surface and should be followed up with brush or roller. 

Do a second coat of what you describe. Then it will be two coats. 

The thickness of 1 spray coat or 1 roller coat is about .70 - 1.2 mils is one coat according to SW. To further answer your question a 2 coat app when dry will be in the 1.2 - 2.0 mil thickness. I don't think achieving a 2.0 mil + finish coat is going to happen with Super Paint or most any acrylic latex in one continuous application (except SW Duration).


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

We Fix Houses said:


> The thickness of 1 spray coat or 1 roller coat is about .70 - 1.2 mils is one coat according to SW. To further answer your question a 2 coat app when dry will be in the 1.2 - 2.0 mil thickness. I don't think achieving a 2.0 mil + finish coat is going to happen with Super Paint or most any acrylic latex in one continuous application (except SW Duration).


Thanks, I went and looked at the can and couldn't find the mils info. 
Then again I've only had to prove I was putting on enough paint one time and I had a wet mil gauge in my brush box.


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## jenn2up2down (Oct 28, 2011)

Even if there was existing paint before spraying and back rolling?


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

jenn2up2down said:


> Even if there was existing paint before spraying and back rolling?


Oh sweet jesus. :laughing:



What did your contract specify? Did it say 'paint house' or 'paint house two coats' or 'paint house once coat and backroll and hope it looks like it covered from 15' or more?'


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## GPI (Jan 13, 2005)

jenn2up2down said:


> Even if there was existing paint before spraying and back rolling?


This is what we call a Florida 2 coat. Spray and backroll, back roll ensures even coating but not to be misconstrued as a second coat. Second coat is a second coat.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

jenn2up2down said:


> Even if there was existing paint before spraying and back rolling?


You want to tell us the rest of the story? It sounds like you quoted a price to put 2 coats of paint on but, you really only put one coat on and the customer is unhappy. I know that's alot of assumptions so clear it up so we know the whole story and maybe we can give you better advice. From what I hear so far I say go put on another coat of paint and make your customer happy.


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

All SW products have a PDS - Product data sheet. See the first paragraph. That's under ideal / lab conditions. Then you have to consider human factors / motivations.

You now should know what a coat of paint is.

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777823774/


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## jenn2up2down (Oct 28, 2011)

Fair enough, here's the story; 

The contract says paint house and trim 2 coats. The homeowner met with the painter to discuss the details. Painter sprayed and back rolled the house with the new color the homeowner selected. The homeowner is happy with the results, he was present and knows how the paint was applied.

The homeowner selected a color for the trim and the painter applied it using the same method of spraying and back rolling. The homeowner is fully aware of the method used. The painter finished all the trim on the entire house. The homeowner's wife decided she doesn't like the color of the trim. The homeowner now wants the second coat stated in the contract, but he wants it in a new color (lighter than the originally selected and applied color). He says since the painter was supposed to do another coat anyway he doesn't see there being a problem if they decide they want the second coat in a different color.

The painter is prepared and willing to apply a second coat of the originally selected trim color. Applying a different lighter color is not the same process and will likely require a second coat to cover the originally selected color for the trim.

The homeowner says he isn't making an issue about the house being painted with two coats because he is happy with the results of the spraying and back rolling. Now, he says if he really wanted to be an @$$hole he could make the painter paint the entire house with a second coat, but right now he is not asking for the whole house, just the trim he says, but with the new color.

He says our other option is for him to hire someone else to do the job and then only pay us half the amount they received (insurance claim) for painting since the painter only applied one coat. The claim doesn't even allow enough for the paint already applied. We are working to supplement the insurance company to get the work already performed covered. 

I appreciate the perspective and advice, thank you!

Best,
Jenn


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

Gladly get the trim done correctly as you said and get this all behind the both of you. Don't make your problems the customers problems !


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## jenn2up2down (Oct 28, 2011)

I completely agree, I want to make it right and certainly want to do a good job.

Second coat of trim paint in the same color?


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Jenn, you have "Roofer" listed as your trade. Why are you getting involved with painting houses?

Also, if the contract says, "...paint house and trim 2 coats" why didn't you just do that?

The damage being done, why not do the following

make the customer happy
learn from this mistake
do what you say you're going to do (at the very least)
do more than you say you're going to do (at the very best)


Some mistakes are costly, some not so much.


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## GPI (Jan 13, 2005)

Id second coat the body and issue a change order for the color change and charge them one coat on the trim seeings how you actually owe them for one anyhow. :thumbsup:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

I would paint the trim however many coats it took and be happy you're not painting the entire house another coat.


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## jenn2up2down (Oct 28, 2011)

I agree and appreciate the guidance.

Upgraded he roof from shake to concrete tile and gutters from 5" to 6" no out of pocket.

I cannot afford to have the trim on the entire house paint with a different color, it's a HUGE house.

I am annoying myself with all of this so I am sure the sentiment is the same on y'all's end. Apologies.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Jenn, take a minute to think about the issue.

You said you would apply two coats, you applied one. I'm sure that leaves the customer thinking that you're dishonest to some degree. He may have you by the short and curlies now, but you put yourself there.

Try and rebuild the reputation that won you the job in the first place and future work may still come your way.


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

jenn2up2down said:


> I agree and appreciate the guidance.
> 
> Upgraded he roof from shake to concrete tile and gutters from 5" to 6" no out of pocket.
> 
> ...


I don't think I have anything to say that wouldn't generate a warning from the moderator.

ETA: I own page 2


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

jb4211 said:


> Jenn, take a minute to think about the issue.
> 
> You said you would apply two coats, you applied one. I'm sure that leaves the customer thinking that you're dishonest to some degree. He may have you by the short and curlies now, but you put yourself there.
> 
> Try and rebuild the reputation that won you the job in the first place and future work may still come your way.


I agree


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

jenn2up2down said:


> Fair enough, here's the story;
> 
> The contract says paint house and trim 2 coats. The homeowner met with the painter to discuss the details. Painter sprayed and back rolled the house with the new color the homeowner selected. The homeowner is happy with the results, he was present and knows how the paint was applied.
> 
> ...


Ideally the one coat of Superpaint would have been made a change to the contract. You can buy a lot less expensive exterior paints if Suoerpaint wasn't specified to begin with. Obviously there was a problem with the original quote. Too late to change any of that. I think you're jammed pretty bad.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Ok. First if there is a signed contract stating that there is to be two coats applied to the house then that is what needs to be done regardless of what the customer is saying. If they say it looks good now then tell them it will look better with the second coat. Regardless of what they say now, if they decide in the end they want that second coat then by all means they are entitled to that due to it being in the signed contract.

Now after all that mess is taken care of if they want a different color on the trim then that is when it is time to whip out that good ol change order. 

Basically since you did not fulfill the contract to date you have lost the upper hand in the matter. I don't care if they said don't paint the body a second time, you uphold the contract so there is no problem later. 

The status quo is no longer in your possession. They got you by the short hairs. IMO


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## Dorman Painting (May 2, 2006)

Regarding the spray and backroll method, you should tell them that IT IS two coats because you're spraying one coat on with the sprayer AND then rolling out of a bucket with paint to apply what would definitely be considered a second coat of paint. So yes, in theory, you certainly are putting two coats of paint on that house...make sure he understands that. You DON'T have to backroll after spraying a nice finish coat on...especially if you criss cross your work...This customer is tricky so make sure he knows that you certainly did double coat the house with your method...unless you didn't backroll out of a five gallon bucket with paint on each dip. That's how I backroll my spray work and I consider it two coats. 

On the trim issue, I would just paint the trim over and get the hell away from the guy. He's shooting an angle, like it or not and that almost always leads to trouble.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Dorman Painting said:


> Regarding the spray and backroll method, you should tell them that IT IS two coats because you're spraying one coat on with the sprayer AND then rolling out of a bucket with paint to apply what would definitely be considered a second coat of paint. So yes, in theory, you certainly are putting two coats of paint on that house...make sure he understands that. You DON'T have to backroll after spraying a nice finish coat on...especially if you criss cross your work...This customer is tricky so make sure he knows that you certainly did double coat the house with your method...unless you didn't backroll out of a five gallon bucket with paint on each dip. That's how I backroll my spray work and I consider it two coats.
> 
> On the trim issue, I would just paint the trim over and get the hell away from the guy. He's shooting an angle, like it or not and that almost always leads to trouble.


That is not two coats. A coat is when you apply an even amount of paint and then let it dry. 

Spoken like a true painter. But I rolled over that spot like 10 times..


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> That is not two coats. A coat is when you apply an even amount of paint and then let it dry.
> 
> Spoken like a true painter. But I rolled over that spot like 10 times..


I have to disagree with you to a point. A true painter would know better than to say that because 2 different methods were used on the same wet paint it was 2 coats. A true painter would have put 2 coats on to start with. But hey, I do agree with you on your definition of 1 coat versus 2.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I dont care if you spray then back roll then wipe some more on with your fore arm followed by troweling a few more mils on with a drywall knife. Thats one coat on my jobs. :thumbsup:


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Dorman Painting said:


> Regarding the spray and backroll method, you should tell them that IT IS two coats because you're spraying one coat on with the sprayer AND then rolling out of a bucket with paint to apply what would definitely be considered a second coat of paint. So yes, in theory, you certainly are putting two coats of paint on that house...make sure he understands that. You DON'T have to backroll after spraying a nice finish coat on...especially if you criss cross your work...This customer is tricky so make sure he knows that you certainly did double coat the house with your method...unless you didn't backroll out of a five gallon bucket with paint on each dip. That's how I backroll my spray work and I consider it two coats.
> 
> On the trim issue, I would just paint the trim over and get the hell away from the guy. He's shooting an angle, like it or not and that almost always leads to trouble.












Are you kidding me right now??!! That is *not* two coats! See reasons by the previous posts why it is not.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I dont care if you spray then back roll then wipe some more on with your fore arm followed by troweling a few more mils on with a drywall knife. Thats one coat on my jobs. :thumbsup:



But hey, I do agree with you on your definition of 1 coat versus 2. 

I think I just said that. We agree with each other:thumbsup:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> But hey, I do agree with you on your definition of 1 coat versus 2.
> 
> I think I just said that. We agree with each other:thumbsup:


You agree with me all the time summit as I am usually right. :laughing:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> You agree with me all the time summit as I am usually right. :laughing:


I think you have that backward. If I agree with you it's only because you can type faster than me. And typed what I was thinking. There fore I am the one that is usually right. But thanks for allways agreeing with me.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> I think you have that backward. If I agree with you it's only because you can type faster than me. And typed what I was thinking. There fore I am the one that is usually right. But thanks for allways agreeing with me.


Nice try. :whistling:


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Nice try. :whistling:


Nice try? That's all you got for me? Man that was solid gold. It was so much more than just a nice try...:clap:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> Nice try? That's all you got for me? Man that was solid gold. It was so much more than just a nice try...:clap:


Ok, try this. TYPE FASTER.... :laughing:


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