# Bruce american vintage prefinished hardwood floors



## Tweed11 (Mar 6, 2012)

I'm a excavator by trade but been working for my dad a gc for many years and I am some what familiar with hardwood flooring. I'm installing 3/4 by 5" prefinished oak hardwood floor in my new house. It's a traditional two story with full basement. I live in the Midwest. I plan on subfloor adhesive and staple every board. When I mean subfloor adhesive i mean putting a thin bead in the middle of every board then staple. Was told by flooring guys it helps with cupping. Is my process right Any info would be greatly appreciated.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Tweed11 said:


> I'm a excavator by trade but been working for my dad a gc for many years and I am some what familiar with hardwood flooring. I'm installing 3/4 by 5" prefinished oak hardwood floor in my new house. It's a traditional two story with full basement. I live in the Midwest. I plan on subfloor adhesive and staple every board. When I mean subfloor adhesive i mean putting a thin bead in the middle of every board then staple. Was told by flooring guys it helps with cupping. Is my process right Any info would be greatly appreciated.


 I had that same floor in my home, about 900 s.f. of it. I had the right moisture reading and put down a moisture barrier and it still cupped. It wasn't real bad, but I noticed it and it drove me nuts for 10 years. My wife didn't notice it, or should I say if she did, she didn't care. It's a great looking floor, but I went with engineered my second go around.


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## Tweed11 (Mar 6, 2012)

How long do I let it acclimate before installing or how do I know it is acclimated thanks.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

The rule of thumb is 72 hours but this is ultimately meaningless. Local conditions determine when the floor is ready. Moisture reading differential should be 2% or less. calcium chloride test or the plastic vapor test for basment slab. 

You can trowel moisture barrier/adehesive like ms + but it gets expensive if applied according to manufactirers specs. Like a buck a foot in glue.

Ive never had a floor that was visibly dry and above grade fail to come in around 6-8 % and i live in the pac nw. Lumber from my distributer is usually about six.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Tweed11 said:


> How long do I let it acclimate before installing or how do I know it is acclimated thanks.


I just read the instructions and went by that. I'm sure you can find that info online. :thumbsup:


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

Stick a moisture meter in the back side of the flooring. Don't have one, then let it sit for a week. I've never heard of a line of glue down the middle. I've put glue lines across the width though every 1' or so.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

If it's an existing house, and not new construction, that is in your favor. If it were my house I would glue 5" too. I don't think letting prefinished flooring acclimate does a hell of a lot but I do it because that is whats specified. How much acclimation is really happening unless every box is opened and all the wood spread out?


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

Adhesive does nothing to prevent cupping. How could it? Grab some dried adhesive and see if it will stretch. Folla?

A bed of adhesive can act as a vapor barrier if it's 100% coverage, but the the easiest thing is to just staple the piss out of it. Do a 3 inch schedule and it will stay flat. Nothing beats a mechanical bond. Steel is stronger than wood. Adhesive isn't.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

Tweed11 said:


> How long do I let it acclimate before installing or how do I know it is acclimated thanks.


Acclimation is a myth. You can acclimate for temperature, but you can't acclimate for MC. Want to acclimate it? Rack the whole job. Then come back the next day. Maybe it's at 8% now. Maybe it's at 12. Either way, you've done nothing. If it's at 12, you'll break your arms trying to get it together. If it's at 8, it was going to be at 8 anyway. The whole thing is a fool's errand.


Acclimate the friggen' house.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

I'm open to being educated. How can adding an adhesive not help a 5" wide piece of oak stay flat (or flatter)? What's the science behind your statement?


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

I already told you the "science", but I don't mind repeating it. 

IF you full spread with a urethane adhesive, you'll create a true moisture barrier. Messy, but it works. Thing is, if you're just squirting it in spots, it's worthless. Why? Elongation. Adhesive manufacturers actually tout their products' elongation properties as a point of pride. Bostik's Best is around 300%. Pretty good for controlling lateral movement, but awful for cupping (if you're squirting it in spots). Why? Because the stuff will stretch like a rubber band allowing the wood to do whatever it wants to do.

I'll gladly explain this further if you need me to.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

I follow what you're saying. Thank you for responding.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

No sweat. I live to serve.

There was a time when acclimation meant something. Now it's become this retarded gospel of doing whatever the machine says to do for the sake of avoiding potential litigation. Lawyers. ugghh.


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## Kenny B (Jun 25, 2013)

Whatever you do, please dont "staple the piss" out of your floor. Follow the nailing pattern that the manufacturer recommends and if you need to use adhesive as well (sometimes this is recommended for wide width solid flooring) use a trowel and not a caulk gun. Also to properly acclimate your floor you may need to unpackage it and lay it out. Moisure goes from wet to dry so it will migrate to the dryer wood and equalize. The important thing is that the difference between the two is generally not more than 2 or 3% (check with manufacturer again). Check it with a pin meter into the face of the flooring, not the back, and keep it in the same grain line. A reading taken across grain can throw off the accuracy.


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## Kenny B (Jun 25, 2013)

ccoffer said:


> No sweat. I live to serve.
> 
> There was a time when acclimation meant something. Now it's become this retarded gospel of doing whatever the machine says to do for the sake of avoiding potential litigation. Lawyers. ugghh.


Im not sure I agree with that coffer. I talk to old timers fairly frequently that say theyve never acclimated a thing nor tested for moisture. Luck will only take someone so far. There is a science to things.


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

Acclimation is not a myth. If your flooring is not at the right MC when you install it, it will move, cup, warp, etc. There is proven science behind it. Look up acclimation, relative humidity in wood, and wood movement through changes in moisture content.

Old timers might not have acclimated becauses not all houses had AC or were as airtight and dry, so it wasn't as much of an issue. Flooring wasnt as wide, also reduceing the effects. I have seen plenty of crappy flooring installations from back in the day.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

There is such a thing as acclimation , but NOBODY does it. Unless you're taking it all out of the boxes and stickering it, you aren't acclimating anything but the cardboard boxes. Another thing is seasonal fluctuations. Acclimation does absolutely nothing to counter this. More nails will. I've always found it hilarious that NOFMA recommended the same nailing schedule for 1-1/2 inch strip as for 9 inch plank. It's patently stupid. (Manufacturers all defer to NOFMA /NWFA by the way) I personally don't care what anyone else does, but the wider the solid product, the more staples I'm putting down. Relying on anything else is just wishful thinking.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

An example I often use for the purpose of these discussions is Mirage. I've ben to their facility in Quebec and it's impressive as hell. they're people are what really impressed me the most. Everybody there is just a font of knowledge. Now they specifically tell people to NOT acclimate other than for temp. Why? Because you'll ruin the wood if you do it in a place unsuited for wood. That's really what it gets down to...the environment, not the product. Unless you're in some freakish place like Arizona or New Mexico, you aren't going to be drying the wood out any more by acclimating it. If you're in a place that's reading 12 -14 %, guess what, it's not a suitable environment for wide solid wood. Sorry, them's the breaks. So what to do? Get the wood wet? No. Dry the dang house out. The bottom line on acclimation can be seen in the dual reccommendations most everyone copies and pastes from NWFA. On the one hand, they say to "acclimate" by dropping the material off a couple days before you install. (aka, Jump through a stupid hoop) and then immediately after that they go on to describe the environmental requirements. They are between such and such degrees and such and such RH (45-55%, i seem to recall) well guess what. If you refer to the US Forestry Service matrix showing MC at various temp/RH combos, what they prescribe just happens to land right around 8%. 8% is what the wood (all wood) is when it shows up in the box. So, in short, they require you to have an 8% environment and also to acclimate the 8% wood to the aforementioned 8% environment. It's a joke.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Agree 100% with Chu. Working in South Florida in the homes of elderly who insist on keeping it 85 degrees and 70% humidity will learn you a lesson or three in wood science, salespeople ignorance, and futility. Engineered products give you a higher margin for stupid but it's still wood.


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

ArtisanRemod said:


> I'm open to being educated. How can adding an adhesive not help a 5" wide piece of oak stay flat (or flatter)? What's the science behind your statement?


When the wood wants to expand that beat of adhesive is not gonna stand aganist the force of expansion. In order to prevent moisture transfer from subfloor it really needs moisture barrier like Aquabar.If you use adhesive you can not use barrier unless using liquid barrier like Bostik MVP. In some cases the subfloor acts like carrier of moisture to wood. Like ply getting moisture from basement and serves to the wood.
Since the top surface is coated the moisture going to wood is very limited. Only time wood gets moisture when it shrinks and moisture goes between openings.
If you still want to glue for each board use MVP and staple.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

Meanwhile, my bare hands are worthless against a piece of wood that has been properly nailed down.

HMMM.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

ccoffer said:


> I guess I've been doing this wrong. Let us try the Dr Seuss Method.
> 
> Is a nail good? Why?
> 
> ...




the only way I see more fasteners helping which I don't believe will is if they are through the top and doweled at both sides of the board. over nailing one side cant possibly stop cupping when moisture increases significantly.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

ccoffer said:


> Can you twist a piece of wood with your bare hands? I can. With just my bare hands I can change the shape of a piece of wood. Not a lot. But some. With just my bare hands.
> 
> Hmmm.


that just means your a beast.. I know guys who would make rips with hand saws back in the day..that's just the way it was.

this isn't a pissing contest..well it seems to be..but not my intent.

but just as you think you're right, I think you're wrong.

you're right .I don't know you..thus why I asked if you actually had did any of those things..

it gives you more credibility but I didn't know.

the rest of the crap don't matter. cupping can not be stopped unless the source is stopped. 
that is my ascertation and Im sticking to it. nails could possibly. you bend woods in your barehands and expect nails to stop expansion that cause cupping?


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

ccoffer said:


> *more fasteners ill not stop cupping..instead of insisting on more fasteners how about focusing on the source of the problem?*
> 
> Well, you're a genius and I'm just me. Since fasteners are simply some sort of useless tradition, maybe you need to be teaching framers how inconsequential they are.l


this is dumb.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

If the wood is wet its going to move in one or several different directions.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

What I'm writing only applies to wide stuff. No amount of fasteners can stop 2-1/4 from cupping. On wide stuff, however, there a certain leverage to be gained. I'm not very good at explaining it, I guess. Wood will be have like a textile in a manner of speaking. Cupping is the wood literally rolling up. On narrow stuff, the force is much greater because it's focused across a shorter distance. On wider, stuff, however, there is less torque. It's not magic, and it's not some sort panacea. It does work, though.

Imagine this, if you will. I weigh 200 pounds and you weigh the same. If you and I can focus our weight on either long side of a cupped board, will we straighten it out? Heck no. Now lets try it with a 9 inch board. Can we move it? Yes. Why? Because of the greater surface area. You get more leverage on a wider board. Now think of what fasteners are able to achieve on one width versus the other. 

I don't consider this an argument since I'm sure as hell not going to be "talked out of" what I already know to be true. I'm just sharing information. Anyone is free to ignore it.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

FWIW: I think one of the most ingenious ides I ever heard was from a guy I met a long time ago named Don Bollinger. He's sort of a guru. If you're a flooring nerd like me, you've probably heard of him. He told me that in certain situations, he'd just keep a 5 gallon bucket of urethane open and dip each end of every board in it before nailing them down. Very smart. Another guy I know would rack an entire wide plank job upside down, run over the whole thing with a roller full of urethane, then flip each row over as he goes. Again, very smart. It's not "recommended" by any recognized authority, but it's based in a sound understanding of wood science.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Don did write a very good book on flooring installs. Pulled it off amazon for cheap and learned the raking method from that


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

sealing undersides of boards is not a new idea by any stretch.

been there done that..same with plywood..actually about to re do a failed install by another outfit.

this done NJ shore..18" crawlspace

since the crawl space is not accessible over 1600 sf I proposed to seal underside of top layer underlayment/plywood since I cant from underneath including joists with red guard.

o then proposed install with vapor lock adhesive.

its all about understanding your situation and compensating for it.

you need to get creative.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

BTW..this a Mirage engineered install that failed.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

Mirage has about the least "engineered" engineered out there. When I represented them as a distributor we called it "solid engineered". Pretty much no one else does what they do. Anderson invented engineered flooring back in the fifties. (Kahrs had their stuff too, but it's totally different than what we all call engineered now.) Anderson literally made oak plywood and cut it up into flooring. All Mirage does is cut up hunks of solid product and glue them to really high quality plywood. It's beautiful, but it behaves more like solid than almost any engineered product on the market.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

BTW: 10 mil Polyethylene is a hell of a lot cheaper than redguard and will achieve the same result.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

Funny. A lot of this would go away if not for the fact that wax and urethane are mortal enemies. When they rough cut lumber, the first thing a good mill does is wax the ends of the boards. This keeps the planks from checking while they dry. Better laminate manufacturers wax the heck out of all the exposed material on their products. It seals and gets rid of noise. Can't wax wood floors, though. Pity.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

This was a really good thread. James and coffer I don't think you guys are disagreeing as much as you think. From what I'm reading it is more of an argument based on semantics. 

Any of us that work with wood for a living know that the thicker the wood the harder it is to control the cupping. We have also probably all found that the wider the board is the easier it is to manually suppress a cup by force. And we definitely all know that controlling the environment is the most important key in preventing cupping/movement. I think you are both saying basically the same thing. Just emphasizing opposite sides of the equation. Hope you both keep contributing. I learned a lot.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

* We have also probably all found that the wider the board is the easier it is to manually suppress a cup by force.*

I think you and I are alone in making that assertion. The industry is pretty much silent on this point and I don't know why. I believed it before I understood it because of who gave me the information. I thought it was ridiculous at first. Then I watched one of the preeminent people in this field take a Powernailer and proceed to nail 9 inch wide product on a one inch schedule. One inch!! He went on to tell me and everyone else, "believe it or not, this is how wide product is supposed to be nailed."


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