# Roofing felt under drip edge



## Cjeff

I'm on holidays, visiting family. My wife likes to sleep in so I go to the library. 
Saw a book on 'Roofing' flipped through it.

They advised putting the felt on first then the drip edge on top of it.:no:

If water comes down the felt it would go under the drip edge and on the fascia and possibly rot it.

I have always put the roof edge under the felt. Remember water runs down hill.


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## JonM

Remember code says Ice and Water on the eves over the drip edge...:thumbsup:


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## Cjeff

Ice & Water is not required in my area, Only recommended.


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## red_cedar

> If water comes down the felt it would go under the drip edge and on the fascia and possibly rot it.


This has been discussed here before.

Actualy what happens, is the tar ( black ) from either the ice and water shield, the black felt paper or the underside of the shingles will tranfer black stains on the fascia. If the fascia is white then its pretty noticable. Its not a matter of 'if 'the ice will get under the shingles, its when.
Some here will chime in and repeat what the bible books say. There is more to the body of knowlege then what one reads.

generaly though, water will stay on top of the roof covering assembly.


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## PA woodbutcher

I drip edge the eaves, lay the ice and water and the rest of the felt. After the rest of the felt is down then I put my rake drip edge on.


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## MJW

red_cedar said:


> This has been discussed here before.
> 
> Actualy what happens, is the tar ( black ) from either the ice and water shield, the black felt paper or the underside of the shingles will tranfer black stains on the fascia. If the fascia is white then its pretty noticable. Its not a matter of 'if 'the ice will get under the shingles, its when.
> Some here will chime in and repeat what the bible books say. There is more to the body of knowlege then what one reads.
> 
> generaly though, water will stay on top of the roof covering assembly.


I've seen that plenty of times before, but it wasn't the I&W. It was because the shingles were not hung over far enough and the water would run off the shingle and down the fascia. This is especially with older non "AR" shingles.

99% of the houses here have the I&W over the drip edge because the code was strictly enforced after the storms started hitting 15 years ago. We have our fair share of bad winter weather, so it would have shown up as a problem within the last 10 years or so. I just don't see it.


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## Cjeff

red_cedar said:


> This has been discussed here before.
> 
> Actualy what happens, is the tar ( black ) from either the ice and water shield, the black felt paper or the underside of the shingles will tranfer black stains on the fascia. If the fascia is white then its pretty noticable. Its not a matter of 'if 'the ice will get under the shingles, its when.
> Some here will chime in and repeat what the bible books say. There is more to the body of knowlege then what one reads.
> 
> generaly though, water will stay on top of the roof covering assembly.


Maybe I am not understanding this comment. Even if you put the I&W or Felt under the drip edge the shingles will still be on top so still a chance of stains on the fascia.

Every roof I have re-roofed that had tar paper (not all do) did not have stains on the fascia and the felt was on top of the drip edge.


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## red_cedar

Well, if you havent seen it then its not an issue. So realy the the thing to do is do what works best for you. 

The way ive done it, is to lay a 6+ or so inch strip of ice and water onto the fascia about 2 inches, the rest on the roof. Lay the gutter apron or drip edge
on top of that. then I put the ice and water shield onto the the metal .
I came up with this due to what I saw with the black streaks. 
Works for me, I feel good about it, homeowners happy, thats what matters.



> I've seen that plenty of times before, but it wasn't the I&W. It was because the shingles were not hung over far enough and the water would run off the shingle and down the fascia. This is especially with older non "AR" shingles.


Where I have seen it is with gutters in place.


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## woodworkbykirk

theoretically yes the drip edge should go down first then the ice and water over that, however ive seen it many times having the drip edge down first allows any dampness coming up out of the eaves to condensate on the dripedge then soaks the edge of the sheathing then rots it, so.... ice and water then drip edge, then starter course of shingles


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## buildpinnacle

red_cedar said:


> This has been discussed here before.
> 
> Actualy what happens, is the tar ( black ) from either the ice and water shield, the black felt paper or the underside of the shingles will tranfer black stains on the fascia. If the fascia is white then its pretty noticable. Its not a matter of 'if 'the ice will get under the shingles, its when.
> Some here will chime in and repeat what the bible books say. There is more to the body of knowlege then what one reads.
> 
> generaly though, water will stay on top of the roof covering assembly.


I have never in my life seen that happen.....of course, it hasn't rained in East Texas in 17 years. :whistling


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## RooferJim

You never ever apply drip edge "or any other roofing or flashing" on bare sheathing. You always put your I&W shield down first, we turn it down on the facia 3/4". This is the W.R. Grace specifications and they invented the stuff. I see ice dam leaks every winter where the water backed up through the joint at the top of the facia and bottom of the roof sheathing. Kepp doing it wrong guys, more work for me.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## CutEdgeDesign

:clap:Congrats Jim, you seem to be the only one that knows the correct way to install ice guard. After reading this I will buy stock in osb as it seems alot of roofs are rotting out as we speak!


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## JonM

http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/custom/underlayments/downloads/english.pdf


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## The Coastal Craftsman

I had a couple of roofers come to look at doing a small 12x10 roof and this come up in the conversation. Grace say that it should be installed first but they both said that it's not the way it's done. I pulled the instructions and showed them both and they said that instructions was wrong and they never do it like that and that ice and water always goes over drip edge first. Didn't bother calling them back and now I'm doing it my self. Seems people no longer read instructions as they think they know better.


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## ApgarNJ

simple solution, stop using drip edge! if you run edge shingles along with starters what difference does it make? run the ice and water over the facia an inch, or 3/4 as was just stated and be done with it.

drip edge really doesn't do anything but help support the shingles on the fascia board, but if not overhung too far, that shouldn't make a difference.

I hate drip edge.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

ApgarNJ said:


> simple solution, stop using drip edge! if you run edge shingles along with starters what difference does it make? run the ice and water over the facia an inch, or 3/4 as was just stated and be done with it.
> 
> drip edge really doesn't do anything but help support the shingles on the fascia board, but if not overhung too far, that shouldn't make a difference.
> 
> I hate drip edge.


I thought drip edge was used to stop the splashing from the water going into gutters from getting up under the roof tiles and between the gutter and facia. That's the way I always seen them installed. The roofs I see without the drip edges leak water between the facia and gutters. Got that exact problem on a current house I'm working on.


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## ApgarNJ

if the ice and water shield seals down to the fascia board, then the plywood is covered. if the gutters are maintained and function properly, then water shouldn't be getting to the fasica board. with the pitch of a gutter, there is no way for the drip edge to go into the gutter and create a seal all the way along a fascia.

I have done with and without drip edge and never had a problem. 

Most of the fascia/rakes we do these days are Azek or wrapped alum 2x's. 

I like the cleaner look of seeing no drip edge, especially on rake boards.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

ApgarNJ said:


> if the ice and water shield seals down to the fascia board, then the plywood is covered. if the gutters are maintained and function properly, then water shouldn't be getting to the fasica board. with the pitch of a gutter, there is no way for the drip edge to go into the gutter and create a seal all the way along a fascia.
> 
> I have done with and without drip edge and never had a problem.
> 
> Most of the fascia/rakes we do these days are Azek or wrapped alum 2x's.
> 
> I like the cleaner look of seeing no drip edge, especially on rake boards.


I see what you mean. I guess if you was not doing gutters on roof it may be more important to use drip edge.


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## WarnerConstInc.

All the cost cutting builders around here skip the gutter apron on all these hip roof houses.

I have fixed more leaks then I can count because someone decided 5 bucks per stick was a good way to cut costs.


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## CutEdgeDesign

Consider the drip edge to be a diverter of water from the roof into the gutter. If there is not some sort of edge then the water would run in between the gutter and facia. A good comparison is a deck ledger board needing flashing to keep water from going between it and the house. Which by the way is code. I can't picture it working properly without the drip edge.


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## johnk

CutEdgeDesign said:


> Consider the drip edge to be a diverter of water from the roof into the gutter. If there is not some sort of edge then the water would run in between the gutter and facia. A good comparison is a deck ledger board needing flashing to keep water from going between it and the house. Which by the way is code. I can't picture it working properly without the drip edge.


It is a regional thing 4-sure.Drip edge is not code in my area,and in the 20 yrs I've been roofing,I've only used it a handful of times(as per h/o request).We extend our shingles past the fascia aprox 1 1/2-2".99% of our tear-offs have had no drip edge,with no rot issues(stemming from lack of d/e).Like I said,its a regional thing.Your weather is the deciding factor.We have mild winters.


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## ApgarNJ

ok. drip edge is continuous and it touches the fascia board in the SAME spot all along the run. The gutter is raised usually on one end, sometime in the middle, and then lower on the drain ends. tell me how the drip edge is keeping the water from going behind the gutter and making a tight seal? no way. 

I have pulled off old wood that wasn't properly painted and gutters clogged, that had DRIP EDGE and there was still rot. drip edge is not making a seal between the two and if the gutter fills up and overflows. it's going to run over the front if properly installed. some water may get behind it. but that has nothing to do with the drip edge.

i've even gone to customers houses where it's a metal standing seem roof, which has copper drip edge all along the fascia and guess what, from blockages in the gutter, the water still got behind the gutter and in a few year rotted out the fascia

if you really want to protect the fascia, and you are keeping painted wood, then you gotta have a membrane between the roof and lay it into the back of the gutter and seal it. 

no drip edge is not cutting a corner as it's not necessary and doesn't make the roof correct or not correct. some guys may be stuck on it because that is all they have ever done but i've done jobs with and without it and it makes zero difference.


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## Tom M

I do like John K does, I think drip edge has 2 purposes. One is to support the shingle edge and reduce the overhang into the gutter which makes cleaning gutters easyier and then guide the water roll into the gutter.

I almost never use it I over hang into the gutter 2" no problems, truth be said.......the cleaning the gutters would be easier.


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## Cache

I realize that this is a slightly old thread but I stumbled across it in a search and since there is some mis-info on this thread I thought I should chime in for future searchers who happen to stumble across it too. This seems to be a frequent question.



Grace specs the I&W to go under any metal drip edge.
Henry EaveGuard doesn't say that I know of.
Certainteed Winterguard specs it over the drip at the eaves and under at the rakes.
Owens Corning Specs underlayment on top at eaves and on bottom at rakes
To my knowledge, Grace is the only company that specs the I&W type barrier to go under the drip edge. Indeed, the NRCA advises the drip-on-bottom method.

In my area (very cold snowy winters and desert summers) the inspectors will give you a really hard time about a drip-on-top install at the eaves, unless you also place another layer of underlayment over the I&W and the drip. This is because the 2009 IRC favors the underlayment on top method. Obviously, the IRC allows for either method, but if drip is installed on top at eaves, then the code requires an additional 4" wide strip of roof cement over the top edge of the drip. This point is often overlooked by those who advocate the drip-on-top method. In fact, it is my understanding that code officials preferred the drip-on-bottom method, but realized that in high-wind areas it was nice to have the mechanical fasteners of the drip edge to prevent wind from getting under at the eaves and peeling the entire roof off. They originally required the drip-on-top method to both have cement on top, and to also be bedded in cement, but they got rid of the second part. It should be noted that the Grace I&W install instruction details are against code in that they fail to require the 4" strip of roofing cement.

IMO, there is no problem applying the metal drip edge directly to the sheathing (which is also the NRCA recommendation). If condensation were a factor we would have wood rotting out at every nail head, and under every aluminum soffit. Indeed, a huge number of houses have aluminum wrapped sub-fascia with no condensation barrier between. The idea is that condensation forms on the humid side. The only way that this can happen underneath the drip edge is if somehow the water is already getting to the wood. Otherwise the wood side of the drip edge will never be the wet side in a properly vented roof.

The purpose of the drip edge is to prevent water that is running down the roof plane from subsequently running down the front of the fascia or wicking up underneath the end of the shingles, with or without a gutter. It does a great job of this. Much more so than simply overhanging the shingles.


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## tccoggs

No drip edge with shingles hanging into the gutter an inch and a half to two inches looks unfinished and like crap IMHO.

Cut a 12 inch strip of I+W lay it down wrap the fascia a bit, then drip edge and a full width of I+W over it. Costs more, takes longer, but solves both cases outlined. I don't know why all roofers judge how good a roofer they are by how fast they can lay shingles and get to the next job, what happened to a little pride in your work and doing the job right.

Hanging the shingles over into the gutter causes leaf buildup and makes it impossible to clean the gutters without damaging the shingles.


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## johnk

tccoggs said:


> No drip edge with shingles hanging into the gutter an inch and a half to two inches looks unfinished and like crap IMHO.
> 
> Cut a 12 inch strip of I+W lay it down wrap the fascia a bit, then drip edge and a full width of I+W over it. Costs more, takes longer, but solves both cases outlined. I don't know why all roofers judge how good a roofer they are by how fast they can lay shingles and get to the next job, what happened to a little pride in your work and doing the job right.
> 
> Hanging the shingles over into the gutter causes leaf buildup and makes it impossible to clean the gutters without damaging the shingles.


Doesn't make it impossible.No drip edge where I'm from,never was and is not needed.Never had a problem because of lack of(d/e).It doesn't look like crap,because you don't see it from the ground._If it was called for or needed I would be the first one to use it.I do everything by the books._


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## dougger222

Here's the deal.

In Minnesota drip edge is NOT code.

In Minnesota ice and water shield two feet past the interior wall IS code.

That being said since drip edge is not code and ice and water is putting down drip edge first on the eave is sort of like running your ice and water two inches up past the fascia board. Of course you have drip edge down there or in some cases gutter apron but you only have the material to protect the bottom two inches of decking NOT ice and water shield.

With properly installed ice and water and drip edge how much water could get behind the drip? As a matter of fact when was the last time you tore a roof off this way and the drip edge didn't stick down to the ice and water much like the shingles or felt do?

Again drip edge NOT code ice and water IS code.

This topic has been beat to death and the outcome always stays the same about 50/50. If you warrant your work and your manufacturer allows both methods who really cares?

We get a fair amount of ice build up on eaves here in Minnesota so I feel it best to alway protect as much of the decking/fascia as possible. Like Jim we like to run the sticky stuff just past the outer edge of the fascia board.

Anybody ever put down drip edge in direct sun light on say a 90 degree day and then roll out 25ft of ice and water on top?


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## Tom Struble

your all a bunch of drips imho:thumbup:


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## tccoggs

johnk said:


> Doesn't make it impossible.No drip edge where I'm from,never was and is not needed.Never had a problem because of lack of(d/e).It doesn't look like crap,because you don't see it from the ground._If it was called for or needed I would be the first one to use it.I do everything by the books._


 
I just did it for 5 years on my own home and it sucked. When I tore off this summer, I put drip edge on. While you might not see it on a 2 story roof, the front of my house has a 10 pitch roof on a single story and it looked like crap standing 8 -10 feet back. Clean the gutters enough times and the shingle start getting all torn up on the edges.

So maybe its just personal preference, but if I did another roof, I would use drip edge. The drip edge also helps when you have aluminum capped fascia.


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## jmiller

tccoggs said:


> Clean the gutters enough times and the shingle start getting all torn up on the edges.


That's ridiculous.


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## johnk

tccoggs said:


> I just did it for 5 years on my own home and it sucked. When I tore off this summer, I put drip edge on. While you might not see it on a 2 story roof, the front of my house has a 10 pitch roof on a single story and it looked like crap standing 8 -10 feet back. Clean the gutters enough times and the shingle start getting all torn up on the edges.
> 
> So maybe its just personal preference, but if I did another roof, I would use drip edge. The drip edge also helps when you have aluminum capped fascia.


None of my jobs look like crap.Like I said thats how we do it.We allow room for gutter cleaning,we adjust according to gutter size.


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## TsiGtp

Drip edge first, its common sense really having the paper underneath defeats the purpose.


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## tccoggs

jmiller said:


> That's ridiculous.


Rediculous maybe, but fact in my case. I unfortunatley speak from experience, lots of trees, gutters hung to high and shingles left way to long, just poor quality work all around.

I'm not a roofer, the only roofing I'll do in a quick patch here or there, or in this case my own home. Not sure if its the norm, but its what the roofer did when they roofed my house in 1990, and I was cursing everytime cleaning the gutters for the last 5 years.

No matter, all fixed and done right this time around.


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## Ed the Roofer

JonM said:


> http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/custom/underlayments/downloads/english.pdf


The better way, if you want to stand out and if you are able to drive home the difference to the customer is to follow the instructions on page 10 of the grace manual listed above.

1. The drip edge is installed over the first layer of
Grace underlayment
*2. A second layer of Grace underlayment is installed*
*over the drip edge*
3. Install Grace underlayment to form water shedding laps
4. Repair all holes left from removal of toe boards,​roof jacks, etc.
 

Ed


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## Tom Struble

wow i thought i just saw ed the roofer:blink:


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## Ed the Roofer

tomstruble said:


> wow i thought i just saw ed the roofer:blink:


LOL..... I'm trying

Ed


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## MJW

Ed the Roofer said:


> The better way, if you want to stand out and if you are able to drive home the difference to the customer is to follow the instructions on page 10 of the grace manual listed above.
> 
> 1. The drip edge is installed over the first layer of
> Grace underlayment
> *2. A second layer of Grace underlayment is installed*
> *over the drip edge*
> 3. Install Grace underlayment to form water shedding laps
> 4. Repair all holes left from removal of toe boards,​roof jacks, etc.
> 
> 
> Ed



Many homes now have this because of storm damage. An old layer or two or three, and a new layer over the drip with the new roof. 

Personally, I think it's getting way out of hand. This is pushed by people in offices that make up these broad specs to go by and leave very little to the professional.

I also feel all I&W should be covered by a layer of felt. That way we can actually remove the shingles.


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## Ed the Roofer

MJW said:


> Many homes now have this because of storm damage. An old layer or two or three, and a new layer over the drip with the new roof.
> 
> Personally, I think it's getting way out of hand. This is pushed by people in offices that make up these broad specs to go by and leave very little to the professional.
> 
> *I also feel all I&W should be covered by a layer of felt. That way we can actually remove the shingles.*


I agree. I started doing that a couple of years ago, when the discussions were talking about how difficult it was to tear off the old shingles stuck to the Ice and Water Shield.

Out of hand or not, if it is one more way and one more item out of several or many that tips the scales in your favor for getting the job and doing it better than anyone elses specifications, then I am all for it.

Ed


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## dougger222

The idea of felt over w&i was brought up at the last CT advisory meeting. 

The problem I see and eluded to is after the shingles are easily extracted from the lower portion of the roof covering what to do with the felt? The last MSA book made mention to the fact that Winterguard is not recommended to be installed over felt.

If you put w&i over felt do you really have a proper seal? This is of course when you have felt over w&i. It's sort of like an underlayment sandwich with felt being the "meat".

The roofs I've torn off with grace we didn't have to scrape the shingles off it like other w&i brands. From my experiance Winterguard is the toughest.


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## MJW

I believe the instructions on Winterguard now say to install felt over it if the sand is worn off. Usually this happens when installing shingles when it is too hot.

Doug, you have a good point, but I bet the felt comes off the I&W easier than shingles.

Anyone notice that the roofs with most sun exposure and direct sun exposure have the most problems? It also seems even worse when you know the last roof was installed in very high temps.


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