# Home owner wants detailed break down of job?



## maleko (Jun 6, 2007)

This is for a large deck with a screened in porch over a section.
All Mahogany. Wrapped post and columns etc...

Gave the customer a number, He came back with " we have to knock about $15k off it to get it reasonable"

So i responded with we will have to eliminate all the detail work on the post and porch etc. as well as change the material etc...

I was able to knock about $6500. - $7k off the original.

He now wants a detailed break down of the amount of men, how many hours etc... I know hes trying to figure out what the labor will be etc..

This is a bid job not T&M . Not to sure how to say to him without offending him that im not giving you my prices etc for material labor etc.

Thoughts?


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Tell him that you are unable to do break a fixed cost bid down, use the Mcdonalds analogy. They dont break down a big mac. Explain that the cost is a blend of historical data from previous like projects you have done, ect...and the labor, materials, your overhead and a reasonable profit, IF every goes well. If it go's bad you eat the loss.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Tell him it's against your policy or put materials at $9,999.99 and labor .01

I will never understand why people think its their business to know anything other than the final cost.


----------



## gastek (Mar 29, 2011)

Why should you worry about offending him? Tell him you don't provide proprietary information and that if he doesn't like your bid he is free to shop else where. 

People these days are really getting pushy on information from trades. As Jaws said, give him the McDonalds analogy. 

This is probably someone you don't want to work for if he's getting into your business. He'll end up being a thorn in your side the entire time and probably after. If you do work for him, you had darn well better get draws on your payment or he could try and stiff you at the end.


----------



## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I will never understand why people think its their business to know anything other than the final cost.


i think it's reasonable for them to know what materials you are using. to ask how you plan on flashing a chimney or what kind of shower pan you plan on using, etc. an informed customer is a good thing and them asking those questions only helps separate the good contractor from the bad.
imo, if you have the attitude that they should only know the final cost then you're going to be stuck in a race to the bottom.
now, does that mean they get to look at your books and determine how you do things? no. but i think they have a reasonable expectation to know more than just cost info and telling them some of "your business" can help you sell jobs to some people...."we use these materials, we pay our guys living wages with benefits, we are going to add these details to the trim, etc."


----------



## popagorgio (Aug 8, 2012)

This kind of customer is a huge red flag. They will use the itemized bid
to try and negotiate You into taking less profit. It is none of Their business and These types always get incredibly pissed When You
decline to play Their game. Do not worry They will offend almost every
Contractor They get a quote from until They are stuck with some 
desperate fool and Their whole project becomes a mess. As a professional
I assume You are in line with current prices for Your area and This 
HO thinks He can beat the system.


----------



## Astrix (Feb 23, 2009)

maleko said:


> Gave the customer a number, He came back with " we have to knock about $15k off it to get it reasonable"


Even though I am in the insurance field, I empathize with this problem that contractors seem to constantly come up against; the customer's only focus is cheapest price. We have the same problem with customers looking to buy insurance. I think our mutual problem is that we are not just selling a commodity (insurance policy or deck), but we are also selling a service (our respective knowledge and expertise in risk management or construction techniques).

A while back I was gifted a book as a joke: "Insurance for Dummies". It turned out that I found the book to be a useful resource because it is written for the layperson, so I sometimes refer to it when searching for a basic explanation in plain language that is easier for customers to understand. Anyway, there is an analogy in the book comparing buying insurance to buying brain surgery. I've handed a print-out of this to a couple of clients who were overly focused on price, and it actually worked re changing their mindset. I think this could transfer over to comparing a remodel project equally well. Just substitute the insurance words for construction terms. Perhaps some here will find it useful when the next "cheapest price" discussion comes up.



> *Bargain basement brain surgery*
> 
> Suppose you've been told you need brain surgery. If you shopped for it like many shop for insurance, here's what you'd do:
> 
> ...


----------



## popagorgio (Aug 8, 2012)

Sorry for double post but, it amazes Me when somebody wants to decide
how much I'm worth. Try asking Your doctor to shave His profit because
You think He is making to much.

posted after astrix but I agree and was trying to say the same thing in essence


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

aptpupil said:


> i think it's reasonable for them to know what materials you are using. to ask how you plan on flashing a chimney or what kind of shower pan you plan on using, etc. an informed customer is a good thing and them asking those questions only helps separate the good contractor from the bad.
> imo, if you have the attitude that they should only know the final cost then you're going to be stuck in a race to the bottom.
> now, does that mean they get to look at your books and determine how you do things? no. but i think they have a reasonable expectation to know more than just cost info and telling them some of "your business" can help you sell jobs to some people...."we use these materials, we pay our guys living wages with benefits, we are going to add these details to the trim, etc."


Uh what?

Im talking about financials of what and why things cost what they do.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

I would require that information be paid for up front with the signing of a change order.


----------



## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Tell him it's against your policy or put materials at $9,999.99 and labor .01
> 
> *I will never understand why people think its their business to know anything other than the final cost.*





BamBamm5144 said:


> Uh what?
> 
> Im talking about financials of what and why things cost what they do.


it was the bolded line that struck me, perhaps i took it too literally (wouldn't be the first time i've done that).
i agree that a customer doesn't have the right to know your financials, as i said. but i've had people ask me how long i think it will take and how many people will be on the job. if they want to know what i'm paying for materials i tell them i'm paying the best rate i can get for the products i need to do the job correctly. 
red flag? possibly. it's also an opportunity to explain the realities of a business to the customer. if he's reasonable then he will come around. if he's a nut or a cheapskate then he'll tell you to hire some guys from home depot to cut the costs, and you'll part ways.


----------



## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

I have been in the business world for 45 years, and, I will tell that when a client wants an itemized list, or, separate materials and labor costs, they are shopping the job. This is a guarantee.

I have never won a job, when in a moment of weakness, I itemized or in anyway separated out my costs. That is not to say that I didn't let them know how much options or change orders would be. 

I also, virtually never....which means 99.999% of the time, list make and model of the equipment or devices.......unless it is a government spec job, or, the client specially asked for those makes and models. 

From what you have said, this client was "sold" on your quality and craftsmanship, he may have even been "sold" on your depth of experience and knowledge.............the fact of the matter is, he made it quite clear that he DOESN'T want to pay for it. Are you really considering this guy as a client ??? Are things that desperate ?

I will offer you this guarantee, no matter how low you make the price, no matter how detailed you are in itemizing every little dink thing--including labor........this guy will waste your time with an imaginary carrot waving in front of your nose. Even if the universe totally implodes and you get the job, this nit picky, cheap ass will make your life a living hell for every minute you are on the job. But of course, this is just my opinion. :clap:


----------



## popagorgio (Aug 8, 2012)

aptpupil said:


> it was the bolded line that struck me, perhaps i took it too literally (wouldn't be the first time i've done that).
> i agree that a customer doesn't have the right to know your financials, as i said. but i've had people ask me how long i think it will take and how many people will be on the job. if they want to know what i'm paying for materials i tell them i'm paying the best rate i can get for the products i need to do the job correctly.
> red flag? possibly. it's also an opportunity to explain the realities of a business to the customer. if he's reasonable then he will come around. if he's a nut or a cheapskate then he'll tell you to hire some guys from home depot to cut the costs, and you'll part ways.


Maybe in the handyman business You explain the realities of the business but, in General contracting You don't. Trust Me on that one.
Or, don't and bid how You prefer.


----------



## popagorgio (Aug 8, 2012)

cwatbay said:


> I have been in the business world for 45 years, and, I will tell that when a client wants an itemized list, or, separate materials and labor costs, they are shopping the job. This is a guarantee.
> 
> I have never won a job, when in a moment of weakness, I itemized or in anyway separated out my costs. That is not to say that I didn't let them know how much options or change orders would be.
> 
> ...


 well said..


----------



## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

cwatbay said:


> I also, virtually never....which means 99.999% of the time, list make and model of the equipment or devices.......unless it is a government spec job, or, the client specially asked for those makes and models.


So your proposal just says you’ll install a light fixture? I don’t get to know what I’m getting and paying for? :blink:


----------



## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

I don't have any problem breaking down job costs for clients.
If they don't like it oh well, it is what it is if they want or need a lower price they can change the scope.
I target upper end clients and most of them understand how business works (everyone needs to make a profit), and they don't have a problem paying for what they feel is good value.
They do have a problem paying for things that they don't understand like "where does all the money go?"
Being transparent allows for a trusting contractor/client relationship.


----------



## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

I think the client should be crystal clear on what they are getting based on a very detailed scope of work. Having said that, there's no reason they need to see my material take offs or my breakdown of labor.

I agree with others that this guy is throwing up a major red flag.


----------



## popagorgio (Aug 8, 2012)

I have to get back to work but, this has truly been interesting and I had a great deal of fun debating. Have a great day.


----------



## bwiab (Mar 17, 2006)

*Don't Do it!!!*

I think you've done what has been asked of you and there is no need to put any more work towards this bid. I previously thought that it was a good idea to be transparent with the home owner, but based upon my recent experience I would have to agree with popa and cwatbay. I would ask them, however, if you don't specify what types of fixtures and finishes the owner is getting, at what point do you do that and what if it is not what they envisioned?

See my whine at

http://www.contractortalk.com/f18/remodeling-basement-mechanicals-keep-replace-121156/


----------



## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

i think some of you are confusing scope with bid break down. 
i will provide a scope with every job. it breaks down what i am doing as far as labor and spells out what materials i am planning on using.
i will break down a quote as far as what each phase will cost, but thats about it. 

here is an example for a simple job

Room 8: 
Drywall repair
Paint room
Remove and replace carpet
Supply and install radiant baseboard heat covers(20lf)
Electric- repair outlets and replace ceiling fan/light combo
Total $x,x00.00
Using materials equal to last years project….

Room 13:
Skim coat walls and ceilings –prep for paint
Paint room
Remove and replace carpet
Supply and install radiant baseboard heat covers(25lf)
Electric- reset conduit for light on fan/light combo
Total $x,x00.00
Massive amount of drywall repairs to walls….

Bathroom option 1:
Remove and replace 2 sink faucets
Total $***.00

Bathroom option 2:
Remove and replace 3 vanity cabinets, 3 sink faucets, and 3 sinks with counter tops
Remove mirror and replace with 3 18”x24” mirrors
Debris removal
Total $x,***.00


This i could see doing, but for a screened in porch i don't think i would do more than one price, just a good scope of work and a good list of materials used.

good luck to you


----------



## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

greg24k said:


> With that said, when someone asks to take 15k off the bid, you walk away from the job... period, because if you lower your bid that much, it makes you look bad.


your right, i just had this happen.
i got a quote for construction surveying from the firm that did the site drawings.
they came in a $19,800 with 50% retention
i told them it was more than our budget and we do not pay in advance, so we had to review and was probably going to get another bid. they send an email a couple hours later and says they can drop it down to $16,500 and will drop the retention. 

The next guy came in at $18,800, but had a few things in his scope he didnt need, so they adjusted the bid and was about the same ($16,900).

The project owner (who is paying them) thought the first ones were trying to rip him off, so even thou they were more, he went with the second bid.


----------



## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

I quote a lot of tub to shower conversions for $6,500 bux... When they tell me they were thinking it was gonna be $900 is when I start packing up :laughing::laughing::blink:


----------



## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

Tech Dawg said:


> I quote a lot of tub to shower conversions for $6,500 bux... When they tell me they were thinking it was gonna be $900 is when I start packing up :laughing::laughing::blink:


Reminds me of when I had a guy call in about adding a full bathroom in his basement. There was just rough framing and the plumbing was already in the slab. I asked how much he expected to pay. He said $1200. :blink::no::laughing:


----------



## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

A breakdown of cost is done by me for the amount of tree-fiddy :laughing:


----------



## J L (Nov 16, 2009)




----------



## 239STAIRS (Jun 18, 2012)

Have him get other bids and let them break down costs. If he likes you & your work and the price is in range he will still hire you. These kinda of people get ripped off all the time by hiring people who tell them what they want and lie about their qualifications. Sounds like you already spent enough time with this guy. He has your price and information let him get back to you. I always try to leave to door open by letting him know you would love to review your competitors proposal and try to beat it.


----------



## maleko (Jun 6, 2007)

Tech Dawg said:


> After reading the OP, I read every single post looking for someone saying this...or I would.
> Thanks Greg :clap:
> 
> To the OP-
> ...



if you read what i posted above , I didnt just knock off 6-7 k...
he asked how i could lower the price.
I said we have to eliminate this and that etc...

After discussion with the owner we were back at MY original bid. Since he didnt want to eliminate this and that.

I will end up probably dropping my original price only 2k.

This works for the both of us.


----------



## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

239STAIRS said:


> Have him get other bids and let them break down costs. If he likes you & your work and the price is in range he will still hire you. These kinda of people get ripped off all the time by hiring people who tell them what they want and lie about their qualifications. Sounds like you already spent enough time with this guy. He has your price and information let him get back to you. I always try to leave to door open by letting him know you would love to review your competitors proposal and try to beat it.


That's the worst advice I've heard yet... Bottom feeding off another contractors design or estimate is hackalicious 
If you know your business, you should never have to do that or care about how others charge


----------



## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

maleko said:


> if you read what i posted above , I didnt just knock off 6-7 k...
> he asked how i could lower the price.
> I said we have to eliminate this and that etc...
> 
> ...


What do ya expect... :whistling:
This thread is all over the place :laughing::laughing:


----------



## maleko (Jun 6, 2007)

Tech Dawg said:


> What do ya expect... :whistling:
> This thread is all over the place :laughing::laughing:


Agreed....:thumbsup:


----------



## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Tech Dawg said:


> *hackalicious *


Hackalicious:thumbsup: noted,,I like that one more than hackafied.


----------



## valparaiso (Mar 9, 2010)

break down each job and price it individually which will be a much higher cost (drive time, setup, take down, etc, etc). explain to him how building is about layers. footing covered by foundation wall covered by decking covered by wall framing covered by mechanicals covered by insulation covered by drywall covered by paint covered by trim. each layer works in harmony with next. if he wants an individual price for 15 different jobs then add 15 trips to job, 15 setups, 15 clean ups, 15 take downs, 15 trips to supplier for material, etc, etc. individually done one is repeating work due to peeling back and replacing the layers each time to a finish product. my last customer (kitchen remodel) asked for the same thing. my revised bid was 65% higher than the prior one. when asked why i explained to them the above. they understood and we went with the original. btw - i just finished an add on. garage roof needed done.

if he doesn't agree walk away. he may not know what we wants thus what it will cost, he may have champaign taste on a beer budget, he may not understand that he isn't only paying for a deck, for example, he is also paying for the expertise that you have to build said deck.


----------



## UALocal1Plumber (Jun 19, 2009)

valparaiso said:


> break down each job and price it individually which will be a much higher cost (drive time, setup, take down, etc, etc). explain to him how building is about layers. footing covered by foundation wall covered by decking covered by wall framing covered by mechanicals covered by insulation covered by drywall covered by paint covered by trim. each layer works in harmony with next. if he wants an individual price for 15 different jobs then add 15 trips to job, 15 setups, 15 clean ups, 15 take downs, 15 trips to supplier for material, etc, etc. individually done one is repeating work due to peeling back and replacing the layers each time to a finish product. my last customer (kitchen remodel) asked for the same thing. my revised bid was 65% higher than the prior one. when asked why i explained to them the above. they understood and we went with the original. btw - i just finished an add on. garage roof needed done.
> 
> if he doesn't agree walk away. he may not know what we wants thus what it will cost, he may have champaign taste on a beer budget, he may not understand that he isn't only paying for a deck, for example, he is also paying for the expertise that you have to build said deck.


Elegant.... but sometimes the price is the price. And that's it.

Keith


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*Bids*



BamBamm5144 said:


> Tell him it's against your policy or put materials at $9,999.99 and labor .01
> 
> I will never understand why people think its their business to know anything other than the final cost.




I could not agree with you more. A fixed bid is just that,a fixed bid. There are several other types of contracts. If the home owner does not want to enter into them,he has no right to see your numbers. I would love to see our industry get away from FREE estimates. In that way the customer has some skin in the game right from the get go. We truly are professionals,we should begin to treat OURSELVES as such. Do NOT show him your numbers!


----------



## CarrPainting (Jun 29, 2010)

I have actually begun getting away from listing labor vs material prices on my bids. I started out based on T&M listed seperately but have begun to shy away from that approach. I find that if I list the scope of work, the materials to be used, and combined the labor + Material into one price, then itemized the tax, to give a final price seems to avoid the whole 'I can get X at Home Depot for Y' 

It does amaze me however, that people feel that charging X over what you pay for material seems 'unfair' with out taking into the account that you have to drive over there, wear and tear on your vehicle, plus gas, plus the real possibility of geting in an accident cause most people dont know 'the rules of the road' 

I have run into a few that have challeneged my material costs... with out realising that its not just the cost of material, its picking it up, handling it, in some cases storing it...so now i just combine the two...

My attorney told me that its always a very good idea to itemize sales tax... and then do a tally. this serves two purposes one; it allows the client to see the amount of sales tax being paid, and two: it makes it easier for me to tally sales tax quarterly.

With that said i geuss iot really depends on the part of the country your in, and what the local economy is like, Buffalo seems to be sheltered in alot of ways from the brunt of the shifts in the national economy... but it does seem as though there are more and more tire kickers out there, who for whatever reason cant/dont understand the real cost in doing business... which by the way, seems like it keeps increasing...Everytime I turn around its like some other entity/Govt agency wants ever more money for practically nothing...


----------



## NYBuilder (Apr 28, 2008)

I simple tell those type of customers all tradesmen Bill at the same rate give or take a few penny's on the dollar. the only way the price is getting knocked down is by either using cheaper quality material or a unlicensed, uninsured day laborer. Both of which will offer you the same out come of poor quality. 
Therefor if you still want to buy a Mercedes on a ford it's just not going to happen


----------



## RAbraker (Jan 26, 2011)

CarrPainting said:


> My attorney told me that its always a very good idea to itemize sales tax... and then do a tally. this serves two purposes one; it allows the client to see the amount of sales tax being paid, and two: it makes it easier for me to tally sales tax quarterly.


It seems to me that itemizing sales tax is just about the same thing as telling them how much materials are. While you aren't telling them the cost of each individual item, it's pretty obvious how much you spent total on materials. I.E, if sales tax is 8% and your sales tax line item is $16...A grade schooler could tell you how much you spent...


----------



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

RAbraker said:


> It seems to me that itemizing sales tax is just about the same thing as telling them how much materials are. While you aren't telling them the cost of each individual item, it's pretty obvious how much you spent total on materials. I.E, if sales tax is 8% and your sales tax line item is $16...A grade schooler could tell you how much you spent...



not really...if you give a total cost bid,then you are taxing the total cost.

in NJ, you must separate materials from labor and collect on the material in an 'itemized bid..here you would have an ST-3 form(tax exempt) on file with your supplier..you then charge the tax for the materials..

if you give total cost..you tax the whole amount...so the HO would never know.

HO's are funny...tell them to go to PC Richard and ask them how much their TV cost them and how much are they marking it up? After all..they should sell you the TV at their cost.

People who ask these types of question most often are not people you really want to do Biz with..but i think we all get sucked into at one time or another.

Asking how you wold perform, materials used ,timelines etc...are legitimate questions.

the rest is your biz..if they don't like your price, they should take other buds and sort it out..


----------



## RAbraker (Jan 26, 2011)

jamestrd said:


> in NJ, you must separate materials from labor and collect on the material in an 'itemized bid..here you would have an ST-3 form(tax exempt) on file with your supplier..you then charge the tax for the materials..
> 
> if you give total cost..you tax the whole amount...so the HO would never know.


That makes much more sense. I didn't realize you had to tax the amount of the entire project there.


----------



## deckman22 (Oct 20, 2007)

maleko said:


> When i say id prob meet him in the middle, Its NOT from the original when he asked to lower it 15k.
> 
> We are back to MY original quote . So me meeting him in the middle means me lowering my ORIGINAL price 2k.
> 
> ...


Golden rule of contracting = never ever lower your quoted price


----------



## studio guy (Aug 22, 2012)

*just lie to them*

I get that all the time. They want to know how much your making, by the hour, the day, whatever, because someone like you', could not possibly be worth that much. Also the customer wants to shop for the materials on his own, and he thinks you are marking up the materials, which is fine. When this happens to me, they always want to get their own materials, so when they say the will buy the stuff, the quote will always go up about 20% ! When they ask why, I tell them I get a substancial discount they cannot get since they are not a regular customer. I tell them yes I mark up materials, but even with the markup it is still cheaper than they can get it for., and simply say that is your business and you don't tell customers your personal business, unless he will tell you how much he makes so you can see if he can easily afford it. So why can't you buy it for him at your price will be the next question, so you explain part of the profit is in the markup, so when the customs buys materials, they pay retail plus the markup/profit. If he says its not fair, and he probably will, tell him you'll do it for him, if he in his business will sell you what he does with no markup. He will say no of course. So, what you do is buy much more than you need and let him pay for it like he wants to, then when he's gone while your working, take back a bunch of stuff to the supplier! I do this all the time, and make them buy expensive saw blades , drill bits etc,and explain them as needed for every job, then return it with a bunch of wood, hardware etc, he's happy cause he thinks he got you, and you're happy cause you know he didnt, then nail him on some legitimate unforseen problems that came up.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Play that game, and you're more dishonest than the customer trying to get a good price.


----------



## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

studio guy said:


> I get that all the time. They want to know how much your making, by the hour, the day, whatever, because someone like you', could not possibly be worth that much. Also the customer wants to shop for the materials on his own, and he thinks you are marking up the materials, which is fine. When this happens to me, they always want to get their own materials, so when they say the will buy the stuff, the quote will always go up about 20% ! When they ask why, I tell them I get a substancial discount they cannot get since they are not a regular customer. I tell them yes I mark up materials, but even with the markup it is still cheaper than they can get it for., and simply say that is your business and you don't tell customers your personal business, unless he will tell you how much he makes so you can see if he can easily afford it. So why can't you buy it for him at your price will be the next question, so you explain part of the profit is in the markup, so when the customs buys materials, they pay retail plus the markup/profit. If he says its not fair, and he probably will, tell him you'll do it for him, if he in his business will sell you what he does with no markup. He will say no of course.
> 
> *So, what you do is buy much more than you need and let him pay for it like he wants to, then when he's gone while your working, take back a bunch of stuff to the supplier! I do this all the time, and make them buy expensive saw blades , drill bits etc,and explain them as needed for every job, then return it with a bunch of wood, hardware etc, he's happy cause he thinks he got you, and you're happy cause you know he didnt, then nail him on some legitimate unforseen problems that came up.*


I can't believe what I just read. You are the type of person that gives us legitimate contractors a bad rep.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

RemodelGA said:


> I can't believe what I just read. You are the type of person that gives us legitimate contractors a bad rep.


Just a guess but I think hes joking about the last part.


----------



## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Just a guess but I think hes joking about the last part.


Hopefully. Maybe trying to read that post without an paragraphs got my panties in a bunch then I got to the last part and :wallbash:


----------



## studio guy (Aug 22, 2012)

As long as the customer is happy and you do an excellent job as I always do, no harm no foul, a fair price for a great job. Here in LA ,customers get used to paying illegals about 40.00 a day for skilled labor, yes with tools, so they see no reason a guy like me with 30 years experience should expect more since 65.00 a day is the minimum wage here,or 8.50 an hour. Gas is also 4.60 a gallon which won't get you far in a full sized dodge truck loaded with tools. I spend about 1,200 to 1,400 a month on gas alone,and 40.00 a day is gas money, assuming I don't eat,lol! So if you morons think my over buying tactic is bad business you are welcome to come compete in this market where people tell you up front how much they are willing to pay for your labor and skill level, by bid, by quote,or by t&m. A contract means nothing. I am always busy btw, and usually I get my 385 a day minimum because I have a great reputation. The biggest, and only complaint I get from new customers is that the job went too quickly, particularly Installing door units, entry doors. I charge 99.00 for an entry door install, retrofit or with new jamb/casing /will/weather seal/lock sets etc, and I get under bid a lot. Best I can do with full jamb tear out, bui.d frame, hinge door and all is about an hour and a half, which is damn fast. When its done, they offer you 25.00 , so I need to do about four a day at 99.00. The prices are posted and agreed to in advance, but here the better and faster you are, the less you charge,lol. I guess in the rest of the country you shiners pay the customer for the privilkdge of working for them.


----------



## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Just a guess but I think hes joking about the last part.


Guess he wasn't joking


----------



## studio guy (Aug 22, 2012)

*and still more....*

I work all over the country, and pay wise the west, southwest, and the south pay the lowest by far, with California, Arizona and Texas being by far the worst.( I'll let you guys speculate as to why that is).:whistling The best pay nation wide is working for the film studios, that can be anywhere from about 500 a day to 3k a day depending, and about 75.00 per hour on standby,...sitting and waiting,...touch up something,....sit and wait, but that's maybe 2 months total a year,

Best payers who want quality work are, northern Virginia, Boston, New York, and Philadelphia. I head east in the fall to make the big bucks out there. In the DC area I can 650.00 for a nice entry door install, meaning a 3,000 door n jamb with a nice lock set. That's 500% more that you can get in LA,lol.

Look ma, paragraphs!

I have one truck loaded with my tools in Baltimore for hurricane jobs so I maybe heading south soon. Pay is low there, but I have connections to do insurance repairs which actually almost balances it out, and hurricanes are a prtetty reliable source for work. Usually the customers want a kickback, and that's SOP when Allstate foots the bill.:clap:


----------



## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

studio guy said:


> As long as the customer is happy and you do an excellent job as I always do, no harm no foul - a fair price for a great job.
> 
> Here in LA, customers get used to paying illegals about $40.00 a day for skilled labor (yes with tools). So, they see no reason for a guy like me even with 30 years experience should expect any more. That's less than $65.00 a day which is the minimum wage here (or 8.50 an hour).
> Gas is $4.60 a gallon which won't get you far in a full sized dodge truck loaded with tools. I spend about $1,200 to $1,400 a month on gas alone. $40.00 a day only covers my gas money, assuming I don't eat LOL!
> ...


There.... now I can read it. :blink:


----------



## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Paragraphs or not, your plan sucks and is detrimental to the efforts of a legitimate contractor.

Good Luck
Dave


----------



## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Hey Richard:whistling Whats with all the name calling:blink:


----------



## studio guy (Aug 22, 2012)

Hey David, so you suggest I work for about 40 or 50 a day? So you suggest I let customers tell me, " you'll make 9.00 an hour, show me every receipt for every stick of wood, and we'll discuss it item by item". I guess you have no problem disclosing your profit margin with customers so they can deterime your value. I do well in NY too when I'm there, though its almost all recording studios there and all the other residential stuff I do there is a direct result of that, and most often for friends of the clients. 
New yorkers want the bottom line in my experience, but the tactical business strategy varies by region and ethnicity. What works here may not be needed there. Your results may vary,lol:thumbup:
Well traffic is clear by now so time to go:clap:, but I will say nation wide the best customers, gay guys:clap: they insist on the highest quality materials and the highest quality workmanship, they always are very well researched as to the details of the project and know what to expect, and never complain about the price, and always add more stuff as the job goes along! I'm not gay, but I wish all of my residential customers were! I'm finishing off a custom bathroom today, the tub was 22.000 dollars. They are thrilled with my work and I have lots of their friends interested in hiring me.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Sounds like the teacher from peanuts is in here.


----------



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I just looked at a complex add a level with work on existing areas as well. The clients says give me a price to GC the job and one broken down by trade in case he GC's it himself he will use me in certain parts where I come in lower. 

As if anyone can do it.


----------



## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Sounds like the teacher from peanuts is in here.


Yep:thumbsup:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

studio guy said:


> As long as the customer is happy and you do an excellent job as I always do, no harm no foul, a fair price for a great job. Here in LA ,customers get used to paying illegals about 40.00 a day for skilled labor, yes with tools, so they see no reason a guy like me with 30 years experience should expect more since 65.00 a day is the minimum wage here,or 8.50 an hour. Gas is also 4.60 a gallon which won't get you far in a full sized dodge truck loaded with tools. I spend about 1,200 to 1,400 a month on gas alone,and 40.00 a day is gas money, assuming I don't eat,lol! So if you morons think my over buying tactic is bad business you are welcome to come compete in this market where people tell you up front how much they are willing to pay for your labor and skill level, by bid, by quote,or by t&m. A contract means nothing. I am always busy btw, and usually I get my 385 a day minimum because I have a great reputation. The biggest, and only complaint I get from new customers is that the job went too quickly, particularly Installing door units, entry doors. I charge 99.00 for an entry door install, retrofit or with new jamb/casing /will/weather seal/lock sets etc, and I get under bid a lot. Best I can do with full jamb tear out, bui.d frame, hinge door and all is about an hour and a half, which is damn fast. When its done, they offer you 25.00 , so I need to do about four a day at 99.00. The prices are posted and agreed to in advance, but here the better and faster you are, the less you charge,lol. I guess in the rest of the country you shiners pay the customer for the privilkdge of working for them.


Moron???? 

This is a board made up primarily of professional contractors, scheming and stealing from your clients will not be well recieved here.

As far as calling us morons, whos the chit kicking hack who cant make an honest living without ripping folks off?:whistling Whos the dumb azz who just posted he is a thief on the world wide web? 

You need to read Pricing, Estimating and Success. It is one of the first threads in the business section. Or get a job at Whataburger, they are hiring.


----------



## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

studio guy said:


> Hey David, so you suggest I work for about 40 or 50 a day? So you suggest I let customers tell me, " you'll make 9.00 an hour, show me every receipt for every stick of wood, and we'll discuss it item by item".


See, right there is the sucky part of your plan. I never suggested that you let your customers tell you anything, you simply take it on yourself that that's how it's done. It is the act of assumption that keeps you pinned down like that.

If you start your day by assuming that your clients will beat you down than the only manly thing to do is go out and prove you're right.

I would suggest that you calculate accurately what a job is going to cost to have you do it and then go out and sell it for that. You wouldn't have to steal from the clients that way and maybe you wouldn't have to move so much.

Good Luck
Dave


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

studio guy said:


> I get that all the time. They want to know how much your making, by the hour, the day, whatever, because someone like you', could not possibly be worth that much. Also the customer wants to shop for the materials on his own, and he thinks you are marking up the materials, which is fine. When this happens to me, they always want to get their own materials, so when they say the will buy the stuff, the quote will always go up about 20% ! When they ask why, I tell them I get a substancial discount they cannot get since they are not a regular customer. I tell them yes I mark up materials, but even with the markup it is still cheaper than they can get it for., and simply say that is your business and you don't tell customers your personal business, unless he will tell you how much he makes so you can see if he can easily afford it. So why can't you buy it for him at your price will be the next question, so you explain part of the profit is in the markup, so when the customs buys materials, they pay retail plus the markup/profit. If he says its not fair, and he probably will, tell him you'll do it for him, if he in his business will sell you what he does with no markup. He will say no of course. So, what you do is buy much more than you need and let him pay for it like he wants to, then when he's gone while your working, take back a bunch of stuff to the supplier! I do this all the time, and make them buy expensive saw blades , drill bits etc,and explain them as needed for every job, then return it with a bunch of wood, hardware etc, he's happy cause he thinks he got you, and you're happy cause you know he didnt, then nail him on some legitimate unforseen problems that came up.


This post is almost unreadable. And i agree, quite the scam you have going for you. Why don't you just run your business in a professional manner. The last 3rd of your huge paragraph sounds like outright theft to me. 

Edit, oh I guess I'm not the only one with this opinion. I do agree about gay customers though. They want the best and are willing to pay for it. 

My question is, why are you some sort of hobo contractor that travels the country looking for work when you have thousands of satisfied customers in the parts of the country that pay well?


----------



## VCGConstruction (Aug 28, 2012)

The customer is always right, if the customer wants a detailed proposal give it to them. There can only be two outcomes from doing this. Although for us to release a detailed line by line proposal including a break down of all costs our clients must put a nonrefundable "Good Faith" deposit down Appox. 2 % of the cost of the total job! Generally this will flush out the window shoppers & save you from putting together a "blueprint" for them to go and shop around!

http://www.vcgconstruction.com


----------



## popagorgio (Aug 8, 2012)

Studio Guy You must not be licensed and if You are and Your saying California is the lowest paying state in the country Your whacko lol.

Also, I agree with the part about the illegals being a dime a dozen but, then again They don't get the good jobs so, who cares?

Regarding Your statement about stealing from the customer That's crazy You won't last much longer like that I assure You.

The general consensus in this thread is to leave that type of job alone so, Your comments about paying the customer for a job is unfounded.

Overall You are wrong on so many levels lol. Time for a beer it was a long day making some good Money here in sunny S. California


----------



## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

Studio Guy, why do you only see two options; let you "clients" treat you like dirt, or rip them off? Do you really think those are the only two possibilities?

You should take a long hard look at your self and the world around you.


----------



## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

moorewarner said:


> Studio Guy, why do you only see two options; let you "clients" treat you like dirt, or rip them off? Do you really think those are the only two possibilities?
> 
> You should take a long hard look at your self and the world around you.


He travels all over the country ripping people off:clap: and he's proud of it:whistling


----------



## popagorgio (Aug 8, 2012)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> He travels all over the country ripping people off:clap: and he's proud of it:whistling


lol 

The man said He steals Their S**T! LOL


----------



## studio guy (Aug 22, 2012)

The answer to question of why I work all over the country is that I primarily design and build studios which is highly specialized field. It requires a great deal of design work,and construction methods largely unknown in the residential area of construction. There are few people who can do what I do, and those in the industry are familiar with who I am. I have built studios all over the world, and as for the determination of how music and sound should be recorded and mixed, viturally every iPod has at least some music on it that was mixed or mastered in a room I designed, assuming it was recorded in the last 3 decades.

In the more pedestrian end of residential construction, yes I am fully licensed/bonded/insured in California. For most other states, there are simply no codes for studio construction, or the methods used I actually invented so they are not aware of what's happening building and safety wise, but showing the engineering to plan check, then explaining it to them is usually just fine to pass it,if they even bother with permits which most do not.
For home owners ya gotta watch them. They always seem to out to get you. I have a window and door biz on the side, and we make cabinetry as well, all wood all custom. It just seems for many, the best bid is not good enough. I just got a gig Georgia turning an old church into a studio, so as usual I'll be subbing out the rough stuff there.


----------



## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

So do you have a contractors license in Georgia? Because you need one to do a project over $2500.


----------



## bdoles (Sep 11, 2007)

Sounds like he might be a Gypsy from Augusta, GA. They are well known for his type of "scam".


----------



## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

bdoles said:


> Sounds like he might be a Gypsy from Augusta, GA. They are well known for his type of "scam".


And his kin before him sold tin siding:whistling


----------



## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

The thing about blowing your own horn is that the music usually sounds best to the musician. Respect asked for is seldom granted.

If it was me building studios all around the continent (unqualified as I am to hold such a high position) and making the money such a dignified profession surely affords, I don't think I'd waste my time with miserable homeowners that always tell me how little I'm going to make.

I never got past basic math, but I did learn about things that don't add up.

Good Luck
Dave


----------



## studio guy (Aug 22, 2012)

Who treats em like dirt? I give great prices with signed comprehensive quotes with strict completion dates on every job. I don't do estimates, an estimate is a guess. THEn, when its done, they want to renegotiate and see how much the materials cost me?, then pay based on what they think I deserve? Bull. If you'd work that way be my guest! Its not every customer, but theres a few every year. My good clients will wait six months till I can get to them cause they know the work is top shelf. The main problems come mostly from the little jobs and mostly from the same "type" of people from a particular region. It costs me a lot more cause I only use citizen workers as well and pay them what they are worth,and always bonuses if we complete the job early with good results, which is pretty much every job I use em on,lol. I am amazed at how many guys on here like getting crapped on.


----------



## popagorgio (Aug 8, 2012)

studio guy said:


> Who treats em like dirt? I give great prices with signed comprehensive quotes with strict completion dates on every job. I don't do estimates, an estimate is a guess. THEn, when its done, they want to renegotiate and see how much the materials cost me?, then pay based on what they think I deserve? Bull. If you'd work that way be my guest! Its not every customer, but theres a few every year. My good clients will wait six months till I can get to them cause they know the work is top shelf. The main problems come mostly from the little jobs and mostly from the same "type" of people from a particular region. It costs me a lot more cause I only use citizen workers as well and pay them what they are worth,and always bonuses if we complete the job early with good results, which is pretty much every job I use em on,lol. I am amazed at how many guys on here like getting crapped on.


We are all amazed as well 
This thread sure got crazy.....


----------



## studio guy (Aug 22, 2012)

A license in Georgia,lol,...does anyone out there? I think there's 200 licensed contractors, and 4 .million gun licenses,lol. I did two homes ground up near this big lake near Atlanta, can't remember the name, real pretty, everything passed as usual, no one cares. Too long ago. A client from here owns them and lives in one now. I was thinking of doing one for myself, but the humidity is too much, I like living on the beach.


----------



## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

You're right, Bubba. Contractor licensing in Georgia didn't go into effect until 2008. But they are required now and you can't pull a permit without one. But I'm sure you already knew that....


----------



## studio guy (Aug 22, 2012)

No They'll be in Lafayette tonight by 6:00, or so. Its six now there. Send what's left to Florida, sell for half price and dump em all,toss in free ridge cap, no supplie can match that. It'll all be gone by Monday.


----------



## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

studio guy said:


> No They'll be in Lafayette tonight by 6:00, or so. Its six now there. Send what's left to Florida, sell for half price and dump em all,toss in free ridge cap, no supplie can match that. It'll all be gone by Monday.


So what does all that have to do with the homeowner wanting a detailed breakdown of the job?


----------



## popagorgio (Aug 8, 2012)

studio guy said:


> No They'll be in Lafayette tonight by 6:00, or so. Its six now there. Send what's left to Florida, sell for half price and dump em all,toss in free ridge cap, no supplie can match that. It'll all be gone by Monday.


lol somebody is schizo......


----------



## bdoles (Sep 11, 2007)

WTF, amazing how a good thread can go to pot in a heartbeat. 

Maybe close the thread and put it out of it's misery.


----------



## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

Late to the party.

:blink:I don't know what to say but Wow


----------



## studio guy (Aug 22, 2012)

Oops sorry. Typed in the wrong window. Never mind.


----------



## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

:blink:



studio guy said:


> Oops sorry. Typed in the wrong window. Never mind.


----------



## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

donerightwyo said:


> Late to the party.
> 
> :blink:I don't know what to say but Wow


Wow about covers it...


----------

