# Are trades a dying industry?



## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Tom M said:


> Their talking about unionizing AMAZON you could have a scenario where a box handler will have benefits, time paid off and low responsibility monkey work and a decent check.
> 
> Compare this to a guy paying for his own equipment, insured out the azz, managing own taxes, no discount healthcare, responsible for everything they touch a couple of years after a day they touch something, connected to thousands of dollars of product in order to work all for not a single day paid off and no security.......
> In fact you could be profitable and good half the month or year and then something falls apart with weather or product and it averages into you only end up meeting the overhead.
> ...


This big time. Problem with trades is it is low profit activity. Posted back then f farma like Pfizer make 700K of revenue per employee and 30% profit of it.
It shine in my head after 30 years of deep thinking that I should at minimum earn from financial side of construction (realtor, mortgage agent, home inspection) same money like from technical side or I'm f up.
Last sentence in comment that I quoted. Do not forget guys that has bad back and come to company only to sue it after one month of work.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

If the younguns don't go into the trade us old guys will be making a lot more change because you'll have to beg us to do your job. Which is why they want the illegals to come and do it for $10/hr


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

^^^ Hence is best be in trades that need licensing. Talked with electrician other day. He said he is at 750$/day.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

I would be extremely proud to have my daughters marry trades people. I'd probably start a lot more relaxed with them then I would anyone going to school. While my friends were partying in school I was sweating last nights drinking session out at 6 am. My daughters are not a commodity that can be bought and sold, I want the best for them and for them to have someone who treats them like they deserve, someone who will be there through thick and thin. I can't think of a better thing to prepare a young man for the world like the trades do, probably the military but there ain't nothing in school that teaches like hard knocks.

If you want to get ahead in the trades here, its not real difficult. If you fish in the right ponds, those doctors and lawyers will envy what you get to do with your family and still provide a good life. I know on my deathbed I won't be wishing I made more money. Beyond making enough not to worry, I don't really know anyone who is happier because they have more. That mindset is a cancer that you can't escape from and will lead you to the poor house. 

Furthermore desk jockeys do what, get to brag they got to sit for 30 years? Maybe they had a good, fun, stimulating job. The big things in their life still happened after work. Us, the entire ride is an adventure. Those 4 years my friends were in college I was learning how to be tougher than most, how to be responsible for my actions, manage money, and overall do the things they did and more. My wife's story from college to here is a couple out of control Christmas parties. I get to tell her at times about things like the time a neighbor came over and was freaking out because her son was crazy and said he was going to kill her. That was quite the day. Or when I watched guys fall off a roof. Or when guys come to blows on commercial sites.

Reminds me of the Robert Frost poem...

"And I - I took the road less traveled by"

And I wouldn't trade it for anything.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

All these people who don't know how to do anything but work on computers better make a lot of money. Because most of them don't know how to unscrew a light bulb. They need all that money to pay other people to do simple things. I can't imagine being mechanically illiterate, but there are so many people like that and more being bred every day.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

You tube videos provide answers and demonstration to a lot otherwise uncapable desk jockies 

Licensing for trades is like protected labor. Part of me says it's time the insurance companies demand better licensing for carpentry......the other part says it's impose to enforce and nothing will change other than more bold Diyers. Like that dumb Lead Paint Renovate Right. By the letter no one will ever higher you outside of a HUD program.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NYCB said:


> Historically though, a good degree will almost always out earn a trade.
> 
> By good degree I mean STEM, or even law school, something that will almost always have demand.
> 
> ...


Nah, I disagree. You comparing 12 years of college and 500k in college fees is absurd imo. 3% of the population can pr would go to be MD. Personally I wouldn't trade either, im good friends with a doctor in town, ophthalmologist. 12 years of college plus residency, was 35 before she started making money. Now she owns a surgery center but 7 million in debt for it. Yes her income is higher than mine but my shop and office are an asset paying me money at 37, not a stress or worry. While she was going 500k in debt for school I was digging ditches and sweeping slabs and working my way quickly up the ladder to a good salary, company truck, and insurance before contracting. 

Its all relative on lifestyle too. She has more payments than my entire lifestyle cost me id bet, I dont have installment debt and hate payments. Guess who's more stressed?  

Now back to reality - a journeyman plumber makes around 60k a year here unless they are on a service truck, those guys are on commission and my plumbers #1 service guy is six figures with a truck, free phone and health insurance. 2 kids, wife doesn't work. Chip, the 25 year old journeyman who does my rough ins and top outs is making a little more than average, and has zero student debt. Zero, he was paid to learn his trade. Now here in marble falls probably 80% of college grads including my AA/Purchasing manager arent making 60k. This isn't pulling numbers out of my ass these are EDC statistics. 

There are lots of college folks killing it, for sure. But there is a national epidemic of ones who are drowning... 

Like anything else if you choose to be an employee you'll never make it big unless you are 300k or more in education probably. You can make a damn good living but never be "rich" . Taking that further if you stay just a hand, a plumber installing pipe and never move up you'll remain in the average aggregate for pay. Still better than say, an administrator or teacher or whatever. 

Now you want to control your destiny, lifestyle and income? You take the next step and become a contractor. That picture is the check box on our shop. Not one of the contractors coming to pick up their check or their wives coming to get the check on Friday am do I look out my office window and say man that guys life sucks. Nice trucks, nice lives. Some are doing better financially than others but all that I can think of are living how they want to live. My mason(s), one has 30 men and is probably a millionaire at 36. The other is 63 and has 3 men and is a happy guy who still likes laying rock from what I can tell. Both live well and more importantly how they chose to. I dont know many college employees I can think of who have that kind of freedom or control. 

So yeah if you get off work and drink beer in your driveway everynifjt your not going far, or even if your going home and playing with kids and doing homework and spending all your time with family. All good but if you arent reading and progressing your staying where your at. Drunk or Mr.Dad

I would make a good living just wearing bags running a small crew. Im good at building, but I took it a step further like my younger mason and got good at not only trade work business. Then operations management. Then sales. Etc... just like anything else the more you got in the tool box the more you get pit of the tool box... 

Headed to do some work this am, with 3 guys. Off the top of my head as a natural numbers guy I'd make $625 bucks today after my hands, their over head, GL, truck payment etc if I was working out of my home with those 3 guys. Chit ill take it. 

My tool box is packed, I can make a lot more money in that plan room or make a damn good living with those bags and a small crew I could find and slash together and build houses, additions, retaining walls, driveways, clearing property, boat docks, pole barns, decks what ever. I made 100k in 18 working days wearing bags on 650 sq steel roof replacement on a plant once, pics on this forum. 

My choice which it is. No ones is going to do it for me or make the decision for me. Same for us all. 

I've been a member here 10 years and have seen lots of folks progress and lots stay where they are, some on purpose and are good with it, others its always someone or something holding them down. 

Id be very ok with my college educated daughters marrying tradesman. Just because Kowboy is a wuss doesn't mean others aren't doing well at it. Now if its a dude drinking beer in his driveway everynight or just not real Industrious I imagine he might feel a boot in his ass and maybe find himself working with big John 






























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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Leo G said:


> All these people who don't know how to do anything but work on computers better make a lot of money. Because most of them don't know how to unscrew a light bulb. They need all that money to pay other people to do simple things. I can't imagine being mechanically illiterate, but there are so many people like that and more being bred every day.


No chit. My house had 200k in equity and a loe payment when I finished building it. Thsts not because I am good at business its because I know how to do things other people pay huge money for. My outdoor kitchen and camper shed I imagine I saved 17-20k on alone just this year

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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> Overall, IMO neither of us should really be sneering at the other. As long as what you do pays the bills and doesn't keep you awake at night, it's all good.


You obviously haven't been on the internet very long. That's not how it works. 😁

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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

I'll take the freedom over more money any day. I get why guys want to get bigger, it's the next challenge and guys who are driven love the next challenge not necessarily for the money. For me personally the challenge was to make enough money to have maximum freedom. I did that and the next big thing I'm setting up is to try to find a way into these art galleries downtown and start selling whatever I want to build rather then someone else wants to.

Its a strange world to try to get into but the guys I know who do it, make a killing and travel all over the world making buttloads of money. Its a different kind of challenge but I enjoy it. Ultimately, I wanna find a way to get paid 40 hrs for 10 hrs of work, hah. Not sure I'll ever get to that point but the trades aren't going to die. I know some college kids who are starting to second guess their college choice and telling others they should go figure out a trade.

Lots of little niches to get into in the trades world, from the world of business and selling to the world of artistry and pinky out champagne meetings. Opportunity really is only hindered by the person running it. If you wanna be a doctor or engineer, school makes sense. If it's business, get out there and try to make your way in life. The trades provide that much opportunity. Lots of Indians out there with few chiefs, the trades provide a chance for the chief and not as much for the Indians, unless those employees want to work hard and make their own way someday as well. And some will just like to work with their hands. Nothing better than an honest days wages knowing you worked for it. Sitting as a desk jockey for a year I never felt fulfilled when I went home.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

VinylHanger said:


> You obviously haven't been on the internet very long. That's not how it works.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


True, and its sad. I have more respect for my mailman who is always happy and providing a needed service than a tech exec we just moved in whose a miserable and whiny. 

The mailman is probably more relevant to society, and that's probably evident in what I just relayed 

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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Tom M said:


> You tube videos provide answers and demonstration to a lot otherwise uncapable desk jockies
> 
> Licensing for trades is like protected labor. Part of me says it's time the insurance companies demand better licensing for carpentry......the other part says it's impose to enforce and nothing will change other than more bold Diyers. Like that dumb Lead Paint Renovate Right. By the letter no one will ever higher you outside of a HUD program.


The only thing that will do is make a new money cow for the states. They'll barley regulate it and they'll only go after guys who are trying to comply. The shlubs that don't get licensed are invisible to them unless they are reported. or they do a sting.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Jaws said:


> Nah, I disagree. You comparing 12 years of college and 500k in college fees is absurd imo. 3% of the population can pr would go to be MD. Personally I wouldn't trade either, im good friends with a doctor in town, ophthalmologist. 12 years of college plus residency, was 35 before she started making money. Now she owns a surgery center but 7 million in debt for it. Yes her income is higher than mine but my shop and office are an asset paying me money at 37, not a stress or worry. While she was going 500k in debt for school I was digging ditches and sweeping slabs and working my way quickly up the ladder to a good salary, company truck, and insurance before contracting.
> 
> Its all relative on lifestyle too. She has more payments than my entire lifestyle cost me id bet, I dont have installment debt and hate payments. Guess who's more stressed?
> 
> ...


A lot of people don't see that. Ohhh, you're making 150K/yr, but in debt so far you'll have to work 30 years just to see light at the end of the tunnel if you want a nice house and car too.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Deckhead said:


> I'll take the freedom over more money any day. I get why guys want to get bigger, it's the next challenge and guys who are driven love the next challenge not necessarily for the money. For me personally the challenge was to make enough money to have maximum freedom. I did that and the next big thing I'm setting up is to try to find a way into these art galleries downtown and start selling whatever I want to build rather then someone else wants to.
> 
> Its a strange world to try to get into but the guys I know who do it, make a killing and travel all over the world making buttloads of money. Its a different kind of challenge but I enjoy it. Ultimately, I wanna find a way to get paid 40 hrs for 10 hrs of work, hah. Not sure I'll ever get to that point but the trades aren't going to die. I know some college kids who are starting to second guess their college choice and telling others they should go figure out a trade.
> 
> Lots of little niches to get into in the trades world, from the world of business and selling to the world of artistry and pinky out champagne meetings. Opportunity really is only hindered by the person running it. If you wanna be a doctor or engineer, school makes sense. If it's business, get out there and try to make your way in life. The trades provide that much opportunity. Lots of Indians out there with few chiefs, the trades provide a chance for the chief and not as much for the Indians, unless those employees want to work hard and make their own way someday as well. And some will just like to work with their hands. Nothing better than an honest days wages knowing you worked for it. Sitting as a desk jockey for a year I never felt fulfilled when I went home.


There's a lot of people who don't understand that. Making money isn't what life is all about. It's nice, but time is usually nicer. You still have to make decent cash to have time off to do those things though.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Some people want to eliminate that college debt with the stroke of a pen further alienating everyone that already paid or didn't choose that option but it's forced to pay.

these computers are becoming more self-sufficient what kind of jobs are we creating are we just marketing Chinese product and managing that? We just talked about Google their cookies and marketing algorithms doing the work for marketing companies


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Leo G said:


> A lot of people don't see that. Ohhh, you're making 150K/yr, but in debt so far you'll have to work 30 years just to see light at the end of the tunnel if you want a nice house and car too.


A tradesman can make a good living in jeans and boots vs having to wear nicer and nicer clothes, cars, clubs etc to keep up with the Jones and look the part. Cost a lot of money to be a lawyer if your not in a big firm..

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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Jaws said:


> A tradesman can make a good living in jeans and boots vs having to wear nicer and nicer clothes, cars, clubs etc to keep up with the Jones and look the part. Cost a lot of money to be a lawyer if your not in a big firm..
> 
> Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk


Hell, we can make a good living in flip flops and shorts.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Nah, I disagree. You comparing 12 years of college and 500k in college fees is absurd imo. 3% of the population can pr would go to be MD. Personally I wouldn't trade either, im good friends with a doctor in town, ophthalmologist. 12 years of college plus residency, was 35 before she started making money. Now she owns a surgery center but 7 million in debt for it. Yes her income is higher than mine but my shop and office are an asset paying me money at 37, not a stress or worry. While she was going 500k in debt for school I was digging ditches and sweeping slabs and working my way quickly up the ladder to a good salary, company truck, and insurance before contracting.
> 
> Its all relative on lifestyle too. She has more payments than my entire lifestyle cost me id bet, I dont have installment debt and hate payments. Guess who's more stressed?
> 
> ...


You just said it. It takes a lot of drive, and not wanting to be an employee for life to really crush it in the trades.

An engineer working for an oil or defense company is going to destroy most tradesmen in lifetime earnings, so much so that the student debt will end up being negligible.

Not all doctors and engineers will become wealthy, but most tradesmen won't.

Just based on personal anecdotes, the guys here that go union, heavy highway, or other prevailing wage work do pretty well, and live comfortably for the hours they have to put in, and often have a good shot at retirement.

Hour for hour though they are very unlikely to match someone with a good degree in earning potential.

Of course the groups will overlap, but they are different. Even if you compare two that make the same money in a year, if you look at the effort involved the tradesman likely has a lot more time and discomfort wrapped up in making that money over the course of the year.

I would never bad mouth the trades, they are vital, and it's how I make a living, but we need to be realistic about expectations. If you want to kill it you either need to go union and max out your retirement, or start your own gig and work pretty much 24/7 for awhile to get it making you money.

If you want to kill it with a degree, pick a good one, get good grades, and then go to work pretty much anywhere and not have to worry about waking up at 5am to go get cold and wet, or trying to figure out which insurance and taxes to pay to stay in good standing with the state.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Most tradesmen work for someone else and that makes it unlikely that you will be making a killing,.


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## Fishindude (Aug 15, 2017)

Since all teachers are college degreed individuals, they feel they are somehow superior for having this education and have pushed the agenda that all kids should go to college and working with your hands and getting dirty is for "second class citizens". They have the ears and of attention of our kids for 12 years of their lives, so they can make those ideas sink in. Their message has pushed young adults away from the trades for several decades now and that is why we are seeing the labor shortages, aging construction workforce, etc.

It's really our own fault as contractors for not doing a better job combatting this. We need to get the pay up as high as possible and give all of our people good benefit packages including; paid vacations & holidays, health insurance, retirement programs, a safe & clean work environment, etc. We also need to do a better job promoting our businesses and trades to young people in our communities to develop the interest early. Some contractors understand this, are implementing these strategies and are doing a great job recruiting new young people. Until more get on board, it will be a problem.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

tipitop said:


> Yup there is something else to. I did in past post about a female realtor that is stupid like a rock for technics and she own 8 houses or duplexes from her realtor business. I do not own single one even I'm gifted for all sorts of technics. At last I know I'm missing something even I do not know what.


Well Big John is gifted with the technics too, hoss. So we got it covered  

I know a realtor who is dumb as box of rocks but has big... never mind. Anyway she is all set too 



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## Carpenterlife (Feb 24, 2019)

The carpenter's union where I live is full of kids. The last few big jobs I've worked on were being run by kids. On one of them, I was taking direction from a foreman who seemed like he was only a few years out of high school. I'm 46 and it was hard to take. Anyway, someone's letting them in on the secret. Still a great life to be had if it's what you want to do and you fit in.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

Where are you?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Talking to a crew next to a lot for a prospect I was looking at I can see where they'd think the trades suck. 20 and 19, pretty rough fellas from west side of Skyline in Kingsland. They are getting 10 and 11 dollars an hour respectively, cash sometimes, sometimes checks from his bosses wife, sometimes late etc.. Boss is a loser ass contractor but trys to look the part. These are sons of a buddy sounds like. There dad is probably in a similar situation if they are sticking to the Skyline tradition. 

Reason I took notice is those boys were working their tails off. They could be top end probably, but they likely won't be. They don't know any better and whats worse is they won't try to find better or advance. They are learning from a wanna be. 

I dont need hands - if I did id of try to paoch them and I never poach. As it is I told them to call my framer, hed hire them for better pay but they'd end up with the same on the check with taxes coming out. I doubt they call.

Probably thought I was a paper builder but I could build circles around their boss, and the framer could actually teach them something and get them over a crew in a few years. Those types from chit holes anyone in this thread would tear down before we'd rent to someone end up sticking to themselves, low confidence. It sucks to see. 

I dont keep up with the kingsland low end hillbilly contractors but a while back I posted I was eating lunch on a site and watching this loser contractors 4 man "crew" share a chitty nail gun and old ass skill saw doing a terrible job on a remodel. One kid was measuring sixteen inches and marking and then measure 16 inches and marking and his bud would toe nail in a stud. It would move from recoil and he'd have to reset. I finally told the guy about accumulation of error and to use a clamp if there was noticing to hook to lay out and I cut a voice for the other kid. One looked at me like I was nuts and the other like I just told him how math worked  

Maybe 2 years ago. Late summer I saw two of those same hands were with that same contractor at the yard. 

Thses types muddy the waters on good job or not. 

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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Here in MN school bus driver get 24$/hour. If you guys do not believe I will do photo of bus with advertising at it. That said framers are from 16$ to 35$/hour. My 2c would be maybe try framing for a few years and try to move to contractor or GC/builder role. Looking behind from age 56 and "health is most important" (true) only full blow idiot would stay for such wages in framing like employee for life. About buss drivers, back than in 2000 they made like 12$/hour. Several of my friends are school bus drivers. At same time maximum wage for framers went from 25 to 35$/hour. So math and MN weather do not add up any more here.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

TxElectrician said:


> You always complain about the trades. Just curious, you say you're making good coin on these sink installs, do you provide vacation, sick pay, holidays, retirement plan for your help or just make your money on his $20.00 an hour back?
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk


TxElectrician:
My guy gets a housing allowance and got a $10,000.00 Christmas bonus. He gets plenty of paid holiday time. I'm working on a truck allowance; we'll be shopping after the holidays. IRA match in the future. He is quite happy.

Thanks for asking.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Here's why the kids don't want in the trades. Two doors down from me on a $300,000.00 waterfront remodel. I'm sure the GC thinks he's on an adequate clean-up schedule because the illegal aliens haven't complained a bit.

The kids want a clean place to $#!t. The bastards.

Worse than the GC and the illegals are his apologists that will appear following this post telling me to quit whining and to suck up these dignity destroying working conditions.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm with you. I put locks on my bucks and only my crew or the ones I give permission to use them.

Ours stay spotless.

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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> View attachment 507473
> 
> 
> Here's why the kids don't want in the trades. Two doors down from me on a $300,000.00 waterfront remodel. I'm sure the GC thinks he's on an adequate clean-up schedule because the illegal aliens haven't complained a bit.
> ...


 What a f'ing Karen  I haven't seen anyone say they like ripe porta johns in this thread. That being said ive worked on high rise construction projects that make that look like child's play. Maybe just me but i would not trade my career for any other career, certainly not because of that. But im not a wuss, I just went across the street and dueced. Lol. 

Call the builder or you just venting? 

I am not ok with porta pottys being nasty either, if there is scheduled to be a lot of trades we have two on site, when I was doing plant renovation, 4.. Having worked on crews and jobsites with low and high standards I always chose the high standards when I acquired the skill set that allowed it. 

Probably low end and low teired subs here who don't have enough pull in their own market to call the Gc and tell him to get that chit cleaned up pronto. Chit happens, if it does its a phone call away to fix it. Jbar (our services) responded to tipped over porta potties (by hood rat rich kids, this is a two million dollar house) within a couple hours 4 times this year. Spotless

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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> View attachment 507473
> 
> 
> Here's why the kids don't want in the trades. Two doors down from me on a $300,000.00 waterfront remodel. I'm sure the GC thinks he's on an adequate clean-up schedule because the illegal aliens haven't complained a bit.
> ...


Only 300k on a waterfront remodel? Someone is doing some cheap work. There are only a couple on the islands that I would trust to build more than a ****box, many, MANY of them only value the coin and not the condition. I've seen some absolute messes on some of those sites.

On the other hand, a couple of them run a tight ship and the poop palaces don't look like that because they have 2 or more and are cleaned twice weekly. Some get it, some don't.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> Worse than the GC and the illegals are his apologists that will appear following this post telling me to quit whining and to suck up these dignity destroying working conditions.


Jaws:

Thanks so much for proving that yes, in fact, the Kowboy can predict the future.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> Jaws:
> 
> Thanks so much for proving that yes, in fact, the Karen can predict the future.


Ok Karen 

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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

How much remember in 80ties working in Germany at big projects dixy was at minimum always half full of business and sometime so much that almost my thing touch business when I would sit down. So it is better situation in USA. I do not complain about it. But I would like to be capable buy Ferrari from my self employment work and 1M house. It didn't happened so far.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

My thing touches when its empty.

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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Ok Karen
> 
> Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk


Jaws, the Super Moderator who is completely unfamiliar with the rules of the site he's in charge of enforcing:

"Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on ContractorTalk.com. Ideas and opinions may be challenged, but name-calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause your account to be banned."


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

VinylHanger said:


> My thing touches when its empty.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


Until I read this I thought I might be weird or something.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Oh,


Kowboy said:


> Jaws, the Super Moderator who is completely unfamiliar with the rules of the site he's in charge of enforcing:


Oh, he knows the rules. However, he's not bound by them to ignore BS when he sees it. If you don't care for that, you are free to go elsewhere.


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## Carpenterlife (Feb 24, 2019)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> Where are you?


I'm in Vallejo, CA


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Oh,
> 
> 
> Oh, he knows the rules. However, he's not bound by them to ignore BS when he sees it. If you don't care for that, you are free to go elsewhere.


Duplicity, thy name is Tinstaafl.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> Duplicity, thy name is Tinstaafl.


 

I know who was the brunt of the jokes on any crews they came up on. If I hadn't seen some of your posts and work on a few items I'd find it hard to believe your a real tradesman who had been on a crew at some point. 

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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Jaws said:


> I know who was the brunt of the jokes on any crews they came up on. If I hadn't seen some of your posts and work on a few items I'd find it hard to believe your a real tradesman who had been on a crew at some point.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk


What you're witnessing is the manifestation of your lack of moderating by the rules. Readers see you calling me "Karen" and "wussy" and figure "Hey, if the f#@%!ng Super Moderator can get away with it, so can I".


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Enough, Kowboy. If you don't like how the moderators operate here, you are free to go elsewhere. When you own the site, you can dictate behavior.

You don't own the site.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Perhaps we can provide him with an all expense paid vacation....


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

griz said:


> Perhaps we can provide him with an all expense paid vacation....


No need for that. He can't take some ribbing. Not the first we've seen 

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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> What you're witnessing is the manifestation of your lack of moderating by the rules. Readers see you calling me "Karen" and "wussy" and figure "Hey, if the f#@%!ng Super Moderator can get away with it, so can I".


Well, Mr. Kowboy, I thought I was in a room with people who could take some back and forth. I apologize for the insults. 

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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Doesn't deserve the "Mr"...

Obviously he dont have much time on a real job site...

Fictional writer, wish he'd go hang at readers digest or something...


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Jaws said:


> Well, Mr. Kowboy, I thought I was in a room with people who could take some back and forth. I apologize for the insults.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk


When you said that where is that guy, I guess home builder in small town and alcoholic, who talk trash about me all time? I'm missing him.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

tipitop said:


> I guess home builder in small town and alcoholic, who talk trash


Your going to have to be more specific  

I think you mean John, Smalltownguy. I think he outgrew the place, hadn't been around 


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Yeah it is him. However I think he figured out will never be so good looking like myself hence he off itself. I'm not guilty he is ugly mofo.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

tipitop said:


> Yeah it is him. However I think he figured out will never be so good looking like myself hence he off itself. I'm not guilty he is ugly mofo.


 John could hold his own 

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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

John's stories were something else. Funny as ****. Sure was a grumpy old bastard though. He'd get nasty with people quick like and in a hurry. Seen him say some things that might have gotten him to dentures a little faster if it was in person.

I liked him.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Deckhead said:


> Seen him say some things that might have gotten him to dentures a little faster if it was in person


Or put somebody else in dentures quick

Mike


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Kingcarpenter1 said:


> Or put somebody else in dentures quick
> 
> Mike


Maybe, either way, the guy knew what he was saying when he said it.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Deckhead said:


> Maybe, either way, the guy knew what he was saying when he said it.


Not in all things.


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## mattsk8 (Dec 6, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> The kids aren't lazy or stupid; they're smart for wanting no part. Who wants their daughter to marry a tradesman? No, everyone's little Suzie deserves a doctor or lawyer. The kids want more than jobs, they want a wife someday too.


My son is almost 22 years old, he's in the Coast Guard Reserve and going to college for engineering. I would absolutely LOVE it if he decided he wanted to be a builder. I don't think he should quit school (mainly because he's managed debt free college so far and he's doing well), but if he got his bachelors, then said, "Dad, I think I want to swing a hammer", I'd be all-in with him. And my 19 year old daughter's boyfriend works for his parents who rehab houses, he's going to school for political science. I think he has a brighter future with building than he will with that degree. IN SPADES I would rather my daughter marry a builder or a tradesman than a lawyer.

I started but never finished college because I started making good money swinging a hammer, and my wife and I got married at 22 years old so I had to figure out how to make money. I do better than most of my friends who have their degrees. I watch some of these kids who bought into the college lie, coming out of school and wondering where there $80k/year job is... only to find out it's actually only $40k/year tops. And also... good luck paying back that ridiculous student loan debt you have. And yes, I do think it's their fault for buying into that garbage. I had the same option, I chose to go to work.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Just met my nieces fiance is 23, has 2 years erecting steel buildings, 2 years on the pipeline welding and has been welding panels for the wall for Gibraltar for a year. Certified in every type of welding you can be. With 10 hrs a week overtime and a 7k dollar production bonus he will make about 68k this year, and has health insurance. He owes 35k on a little house hes fixed up and 3 acres. Just bought her a nice rock and gave her a nice budget for her wedding. 

I think her moms probably pretty happy....

After a whiskey on rocks for me and a rum and coke for the young fella this last weekend Id guess he will be running a doing steel erections for himself in the next few years.... turns out he has a new uncle with some connections in construction. Just needs to set aside a bit of capital. 

His brother has a degree he owes 45k on and makes less than her fiance and he's 6 years older. He also can't fix a car, remodel a house, or make extra scratch building deer stands and feeders in his barn. 

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## JoeStanton (Sep 24, 2008)

Jaws, I'm sure capitol is the least of his worries if you believe in him. You'll bank roll em' and keep a fire under his ass, if he can take it!

College isn't for everyone, but they pushed it for a good 20 years. I was never gonna make anything out of college except having a few kids. I was shamed for going to a trade school and even worse for not going to college. I make at least as much as my friends who went to college and make my own schedule. I went on my own at 24 after running my old bosses gig since about 21.

These "guidance consolers" need to realize there is no one size fits all. Some want to work 8 hours and enjoy life, and that's great. Others want complete misery and to run a small business. It's rewarding and intrusive to life at the same time. Just make sure to marry someone who is understanding.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

JoeStanton said:


> Jaws, I'm sure capitol is the least of his worries if you believe in him. You'll bank roll em' and keep a fire under his ass, if he can take it!
> 
> College isn't for everyone, but they pushed it for a good 20 years. I was never gonna make anything out of college except having a few kids. I was shamed for going to a trade school and even worse for not going to college. I make at least as much as my friends who went to college and make my own schedule. I went on my own at 24 after running my old bosses gig since about 21.
> 
> These "guidance consolers" need to realize there is no one size fits all. Some want to work 8 hours and enjoy life, and that's great. Others want complete misery and to run a small business. It's rewarding and intrusive to life at the same time. Just make sure to marry someone who is understanding.


I'll believe in him when he shows up with that money I told him to save  

Not enough to get started but enough to show hes serious. 

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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Funny, a construction guy a couple miles from here just posted every sub he knows is hiring if people want to work and put up with the ribbing. He's hiring, too.

Show up.
Work hard.
Good attitude.
Get paid.

You don't even have to take the SATs.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

hdavis said:


> Funny, a construction guy a couple miles from here just posted every sub he knows is hiring if people want to work and put up with the ribbing. He's hiring, too.
> 
> Show up.
> Work hard.
> ...


Forgot to mentiin, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE OUT A LOAN.


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