# More design help......siege weapons.



## BlueRidgeGreen

I just can't figure this out.

Tre 1 (the smaller trebuchet was tossing water ballons to roughly 35 feet with deadly accuracy (could've put em in a 5gal bucket every time).

SO.......I added another stone (hastily....but miles of shrink wrap and duct tape are as good as steel and carbon fiber)......and didn't gain a foot of distance.

What gives?

It makes me call into question the awesomeness of The Beast (the large tre).
I doubled the size (frame and throwing arm dimensions), and at least quadrupled the counterweight (to like 350).........but now I'm worried it'll go 70 feet. 
70 feet????....for all that. I planned on using it as a Pumpkin Skeet Thrower after the boy's BDay Party. 

More weight should equal more force....yes?


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## Tom Struble

i don't know but thats awesome:clap:..


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## Leo G

You are dealing with square roots. So doubling only yields a small increase.


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## Robie

http://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/trebuchet-physics.html


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Leo G said:


> You are dealing with square roots. So doubling only yields a small increase.


I get the words.....the equation is.....beyond me.

Put it in layman's (6yr old) terms.

Longer arm.....longer runway/and string......higher pivot point?


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Robie said:


> http://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/trebuchet-physics.html


That.....is good chit.

Thanks:thumbsup:


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## Leo G

You should have to square the arms length and the weight to get double the distance.


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## Robie

Leo G said:


> You should have to square the arms length and the weight to get double the distance.


That's what I was thinking.....:blink:


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## BlueRidgeGreen

I have a translator working on the problem (head of the Math Dept. at VMI).

I sent him Robie's link and the pics........waiting for answer in "regular guy" speak.

Is Leo saying longer payload side of arm?


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## Leo G

Yes, and weight too. The secondary arm needs to maintain a 3.75:1 ratio.


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## Leo G

You need more speed. And you are limited in your speed by the size of your circle. Longer arm and same ratio of weight and speed will yield a similar rotation speed. But because the arm is longer you will gain speed because you are covering a much greater distance in the same period of time.


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## BlueRidgeGreen

I think the weight is sufficient.

Like 350 on the big one......

Gonna temp in a longer payload arm section tomorrow AM.....see how she reacts.

Does the pouch release string have to grow with it though?

My issue is size of circle....if that has to grow......it ain't happenin'.


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## Robie

I just re-read your initial post.

What are you trying to accomplish and with which machine?


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## Leo G

He wants more distance.


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## Robie

Faster arm making the circle....


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## Leo G

tmi

:laughing:


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## Robie

Try this:

http://www.virtualtrebuchet.com/


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Jaw dropping, and kid soaking, water balloon hurling. (Alex's 8th BDay......scavenger hunt to team color-dyed-water gun war in labyrinth cut into 5' tall pasture.....Dad manned siege weapons for 
added drama of war)

I mean.....they are cool for kid chit...

but i just can't understand why I am getting almost zero increase in distance by doubling the weight on the small Tre.....

plus, I spent the morning building the big Tre and am now worried (haven't test shot it yet (concrete setting up).....need help, or pulley system to even load it)) about the WOW factor of it.


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## Robie

> need help, or pulley system to even load it


Jenn???


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Robie said:


> Try this:
> 
> http://www.virtualtrebuchet.com/


Dude?????????

Amazing......:clap:

That thing says I get 397 feet out of The Beast (if my ballpark (short term memory) numbers are correct.

F that.....I'm grabbin a Fatmax 16 and going to measure.

THAT IS SICK!!!!!!!!

Where were you (and your fancy websites) yesterday.....?


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## Tinstaafl

Dude, that is awesome. I've toyed with the idea of building one for years, and never quite came up with a roundtuit. You gotta get that baby tuned up and then share the plans. :thumbup:


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## Tom Struble

thinkin of a career change?


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Getting them all tuned and tweaked (just some small adjustments left to do on The Beast).

After the disastrous 20' ....350+lb. throw and pivot arm distortion.....I shaved a couple hundred pounds off her, and now...
The Beast is throwing around 400' with a conventional (sm) balloon. I think I can get 20% more with some release pin/trajectory tuning (I'm releasing at around 65deg.......they say 45 is prime).
Large party balloons purchased....awaiting test fire.

Little Tre is slinging a kid-friendly 75-90'.

Cat 1...the straight torsion catapult is good to around 45'.

Cat 2...the bungee-assisted torsion is soft and paunchy, but safe at 35'-40' (rope length.......frame width issues maybe, needed some bungee help) 

Four latex tubing slingshots, each set up on two 8' 2x2 oak staves (driven 3 deep) in The Labrynth.....one next to The Beast so I can protect myself from the other Dads, who are bound to start raining rubber down on me.

30 Nerf SuperSoakers on deck......triple stream Crossbow for the Bday boy (i gotta get some cheapee's for stragglers....I can bear no more)

GoPro mounted to remote helicopter comes tomorrow for fly by and memorial video.

I am jacked...like I'm 8......and it's my birthday.

Just finished up his present.

It's on like Donkey Kong. :thumbsup::thumbup:


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## CarpenterSFO

We need video.


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## hdavis

CarpenterSFO said:


> We need video.


And a blowgun anti-balloon defense system.


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## BlueRidgeGreen

hdavis said:


> And a blowgun anti-balloon defense system.


Blow Dome?


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## BlueRidgeGreen

CarpenterSFO said:


> We need video.


My buddy with the GoPro can't be here Sat.:sad:

I would love to have a bird's eye view of the battle in progress. I'm sure a bunch of folks will be Iphone vid ready and posting on social media though. I'll get something up.

(p.s. The compound bow metaphor has been my goto "you can't imagine what an idiot I was.......more weight means nothing past a certain threshold" retelling. Everyone can relate to that one. Thanks)


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## BlueRidgeGreen

His present.....

He got into chess this year.....seems to have a knack for it.

I was never a chess guy, but I can make chit...................
(I think he's gonna be really excited, I can't wait)


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## Robie

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> My buddy with the GoPro can't be here Sat.:sad:
> 
> I would love to have a bird's eye view of the battle in progress. I'm sure a bunch of folks will be Iphone vid ready and posting on social media though. I'll get something up.
> 
> (p.s. The compound bow metaphor has been my goto "you can't imagine what an idiot I was.......more weight means nothing past a certain threshold" retelling. Everyone can relate to that one. Thanks)


Hire Sparky....


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## Robie

> His present.....


Very cool.

I like gifts that have staying power....ones that he can use and pass down 60 years from now. Make sure it's signed and dated.

Well done sir!


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Robie said:


> Hire Sparky....


I wish.....

this thing is already crippling my tropical fly-fishing budget.:sad:

Those water guns ain't cheap.
and that's only a small part of this vast effort.

I have heard "honey, you have to dial it back a little" a few times this month. I refuse.

Thanks for the props. 
I really loved making it, and totally agree about the staying power. I am over buying him plastic chinese made crap that he will barely remember exists after a week (I have a playroom and basement full of that stuff that proves the point). Let the grandparents get their jollies shopping at Toys R Us. 
Also stoked that he loves chess.....and is pretty good at it. Always a nice way to pass a rainy afternoon or the last hour before bedtime.


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## hdavis

The big trebuchet has to be putting balloons out at over 100 mph to get the range you're getting. Those are going to hurt...


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## BlueRidgeGreen

I should post video of me last night with a can of corner bead spray adhesive and the fabric for that drawer insert.......:whistling

It was almost an epic disaster....:laughing:

I think my hand was stuck to my face at one point, and three pieces of royal blue now reside in my trash can.....


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## Robie

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> I should post video of me last night with a can of corner bead spray adhesive and the fabric for that drawer insert.......:whistling
> 
> It was almost an epic disaster....:laughing:
> 
> I think my hand was stuck to my face at one point, and three pieces of royal blue now reside in my trash can.....


I have no idea what you are referring to....never happened to me....:whistling


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## BlueRidgeGreen

hdavis said:


> The big trebuchet has to be putting balloons out at over 100 mph to get the range you're getting. Those are going to hurt...


Now.....you get all physics genius on me?

The Beast is just for show.....wow factor....no little nuggets will be targeted (or anywhere near the drop zone) during the firing of that thing.

Dads are another story all together....:whistling

It actually is aimed to land well past accessible terrain, and will only be fired with everyone accounted for and in safe viewing positions.

I ain't no reckless fool.....where would you ever get an idea like that?:whistling


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## hdavis

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Now.....you get all physics genius on me?
> 
> The Beast is just for show.....wow factor....no little nuggets will be targeted (or anywhere near the drop zone) during the firing of that thing.
> 
> Dads are another story all together....:whistling
> 
> It actually is aimed to land well past accessible terrain, and will only be fired with everyone accounted for and in safe viewing positions.
> 
> I ain't no reckless fool.....where would you ever get an idea like that?:whistling


LOL, there's still plenty of time to dodge them, unless they're knuckle balling in


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## BlueRidgeGreen

hdavis said:


> LOL, there's still plenty of time to dodge them, unless they're knuckle balling in


Not if you have a beer in your hand and are talking chit about golf...

Ka...Blaaaammmmmm!:jester:

I wonder if winding the pouch strings over each other pre-launch would add the desired Phil Niekro-effect? 

More testing after work today.


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## Leo G

When I was playing with that virtual chucker Robie linked to I was getting better results using an angle of 25 degrees instead of 45. Maybe it was the 20,000 lb weight I was using.


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## Robie

> It actually is aimed to land well past accessible terrain, and will only be fired with everyone accounted for and in safe viewing positions.


I fully expect the expended ammunition to be gathered up and disposed of properly....unless of course it is edible or will safely and quickly decompose....:whistling


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## hdavis

Leo G said:


> When I was playing with that virtual chucker Robie linked to I was getting better results using an angle of 25 degrees instead of 45. Maybe it was the 20,000 lb weight I was using.


45 ignores aerodynamic drag, and ignores the possibility of getting more energy into the projectile by using a longer arc before release. 

Actual results for longest throw with people throwing baseballs is 30-35 degrees. Batting is a little different, and ~10 degree down swing with ~20 degree ball trajectory gives the longest hit based on simulations incorporating the Magnus effect (back spin).


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Robie said:


> I fully expect the expended ammunition to be gathered up and disposed of properly....unless of course it is edible or will safely and quickly decompose....:whistling


Biodegradable water balloons......amazon.com

what...what.....!:thumbsup:


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Leo G said:


> When I was playing with that virtual chucker Robie linked to I was getting better results using an angle of 25 degrees instead of 45. Maybe it was the 20,000 lb weight I was using.



Just finished for the day..

going out to do some testing with various angles.


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## BlueRidgeGreen

So I checked the *actual* distance of the throw with my range finder.

400' was an overstatement to say the least. More like 200' (I'm originally from the city, it's a very tall grass pasture....it was late and dark...and I was tired:sad.....and it was a fluke on top of it. I ran out of zucchini, and the balloons were never getting out past 125 or so (rangefinder...all distances are verified from here on out)...... no matter what I did. 

Big balloons......doubling up balloons before filling (they are so waifty).........3 different pouch sizes.....string lengths.....firing pin angles.........NUTTIN"!!!!

So............
I played around on Robie's simulator last night, which led to this morning...... whence.....
I bailed on installing some faux columns we built and broke out the sharp cutty things.

Here she is......The Beast V2.0......so much more elegant....so much more a beast. 
The counterweight mod was the most significant I think.
......then the pivot height and arm length and weight reduction....etc....etc.

And when she goes.....she goes every bit of 350'....still tuning....looking for 425...ish.
350' with a doubled up large party ballon filled to approx. 40% capacity (think a D cup)

J got a great video on her Iphone. I'll try to figure out how to post it.

Thanks everyone.....


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## Robie

Killer!


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## Leo G

D cup.....thinking...thinking....wait


Need hot soapy shower :laughing:


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## hdavis

Cool:clap:

What angle?


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## BlueRidgeGreen

hdavis said:


> Cool:clap:
> 
> What angle?


That confused me in the beginning (which angle)....still does kind of.

45deg launch arm angle at rest.

Looking at the vid now to see release angle. Looked like arm was 90 or so.....cant tell with pouch yet...bad angle for viewing.


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## Tinstaafl

Leo G said:


> Need hot soapy shower :laughing:


Take a cold shower, ya prevert.

Still waiting on those design specs...


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Tinstaafl said:


> Take a cold shower, ya prevert.
> 
> Still waiting on those design specs...


I'll get them up.:thumbsup:

So many numbers......so little sleep.


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Had I built this one from the start....or the next one (I have to .........Pumpkin Skeet beckons (although this beauty just may throw a pumpkin with perfect skeet trajectory and distance ("grow faster you useless orange fleshy orbs....grow!!!!"))

5 hours build time, probably.....chillin'. (and I would buy weights....variability, but the bags of concrete were just sitting there)


Made totally out of scraps/leftovers, which added a bit of time....rippin' and searchin' an such.


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## Leo G

Pumpkins make good pies.


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## Robie

Leo G said:


> Pumpkins make good pies.


I don't like pumpkin pie.


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## hdavis

Leo G said:


> Pumpkins make good pies.


Even skeeted ones?


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Robie said:


> I don't like pumpkin pie.


That tooth acting up again?:sad:




I love me some pumpkin pie. 

So..... it has one marvelous use.

I can buy one for a pie.

We ARE talking about a group of men exploding pumpkins in midair with shotguns .....pumpkins launched from a medieval siege weapon........duh.


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## BlueRidgeGreen

hdavis said:


> Even skeeted ones?


I eat all those birds......the non-skeeted (yet pellety nonetheless) ones.:thumbsup:

Great idea......870 food processing.:clap:


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## Robie

> That tooth acting up again?


I like blueberry pie
I like cherry pie
I like apple pie
I like chocolate cream pie
I like Boston cream pie
I like Pecan pie

I don't like pumpkin pie.


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Robie said:


> I like blueberry pie
> I like cherry pie
> I like apple pie
> I like chocolate cream pie
> I like Boston cream pie
> I like Pecan pie
> 
> I don't like pumpkin pie.


:thumbsup: Got it.

strawberry-rhubarb meringue

Key Lime

(other outstanding pies)

I'll even eat a coconut cream.

I could really use a pie right now.


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## Robie

> I could really use a pie right now.


I'm microwaving a piece of frozen banana cream I made a few weeks ago.

Too late for coffee? Nah...maybe milk though.


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## hdavis

It'd be a heck of a way to plant a pumpkin patch.


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## Leo G

Robie said:


> I'm microwaving a piece of frozen banana cream I made a few weeks ago.
> 
> Too late for coffee? Nah...maybe milk though.


Where's my picture.:whistling


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Cake.....he chose a Tron cake (go figure....Tron?)

Slumber Party Crew.......smores.

Slum Dogs .....Scooby-Doo + popcorn + juice.......big mess the next morning


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## Leo G

Every one of them will be suspended from school if anyone mentions this.


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Alex and his BFF since he was 6 months old (THall's little girl), diggin' on his present.


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Thanks Robie...

everyone.

Tin.........you may have to wait a bit longer (that was exhausting), but I'll get to it.:thumbsup:


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Leo G said:


> Every one of them will be suspended from school if anyone mentions this.


All stool pigeons will face a rainbow hued firing squad.


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## Robie

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Thanks Robie...
> 
> everyone.
> 
> Tin.........you may have to wait a bit longer (that was exhausting), but I'll get to it.:thumbsup:


Nice job Dad!

I have a feeling that will be one of those days remembered and cherished for the rest of his life.

Of course we'll need to see pics from his 16th party with the strippers and such.:whistling

Man, I was looking forward to the good stuff too. This McCormick sh!t is for the birds.


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## Tinstaafl

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Tin.........you may have to wait a bit longer (that was exhausting), but I'll get to it.:thumbsup:


After that pic-fest, I need to stop and wheeze a bit too. What a shindig! Can't wait to see what you do next year. :laughing: :thumbsup:


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## hdavis

Updated list of things every kid should play with growing up:

Spear
Bow and arrow
Blowgun
Slingshot 
Paint Ball
Trebuchet

What'd I miss?

Awesome party, BRG!


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## Robie

Mud, sand and dirt
Trees to climb
Kites
Roller skates
Playboy magazine


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## hdavis

Robie said:


> Mud, sand and dirt
> Trees to climb
> Kites
> Roller skates
> Playboy magazine


I was going with the theme


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## Robie

hdavis said:


> I was going with the theme


Then you should have specified....


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## Tinstaafl

hdavis said:


> What'd I miss?


A mechanical clock. :thumbsup:


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## BlueRidgeGreen

Throwing stars 
compass 


bow and arrow.....check.


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## Robie

I know he's young but does he exhibit any interest in what his Dad does?


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## BlueRidgeGreen

He is a born builder.

Always has been.

He has a huge collection of scraps that he constantly rearranges into various things......stone, tile, wood, pipes....etc...etc.

We get in the shop once in a while. We have been working on a collection of bug and bird houses for a few years ("bug houses too Daddy".....was his response at 4 yrs old to "let's build a bird house").

We also love to build fairly complex creek structures in the park.

Sometimes I dream that he'll enroll in the Architecture School at UVA (and finish, like his father never did at NYIT).

It will be interesting to see what happens when he gets older and comes to work with me.

Old pic...BIRD1


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## Robie

Safety glasses and all...good man!


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## hdavis

Anyone else remember pea shooters?


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## hdavis

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Sometimes I dream that he'll enroll in the Architecture School at UVA (and finish, like his father never did at NYIT).
> 
> It will be interesting to see what happens when he gets older and comes to work with me.


6 yr program? Archis have to be pretty dedicated to it in school -all nighters, and all that.


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## Robie

hdavis said:


> Anyone else remember pea shooters?


Oh man...yes!.

We had an old 57 Ford station wagon where the back seat faced to the back. We'd come back from a day at the beach ( a real big treat for us) and shoot those the whole ride back.

They had spin art back then also on the boardwalk...maybe still do. Piece of white cardboard on a turn table with plastic aqueeze bottles of paint.

What fun!


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## Robie

We in the hood would go through phases every year of things to do.
We'd roller skate for a few weeks. I was cool and took a pair of cowboy boots I had and attached the old skates to them real tight. I was ready to roll on a moments notice.

Then we'd skateboard for a few weeks...play army, kites in the spring...swimming every single day in the summer at the base pool.

For a few days it would be homemade parachutes from Mom's or sister's scarfs (big back then) and a spark plug. 

God...there weren't enough hours in the day and hated to come inside. But when we did, the entire family watched TV together. Being the youngest, I was the official channel changer, antenna adjuster and volume control go-to guy.

Pretty goofy stuff I guess....


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