# Insulating old home with no sheathing.



## philcav7 (Jan 15, 2009)

I demo'd a few rooms in a 1929 balloon framed home. There is no sheathing or vapor barrier on the exterior. The wood clapboard siding is nailed directly to the studs. 

There were indications of prior moisture intrusion especially around Windows and the outside corners. Essentially anywhere there's trim, there's moisture staining. Nothing it rotten, but a few spots of mildew/mold. 

It's easy enough to seal around the Windows, but that's not help any moisture that moves through the wood throug capillary action or absorbing through deteriorated paint into the siding. 

I'm fearful of insulating the walls, trapping additional moisture and causing problems. The client does plan to install vinyl siding in the spring. This would allow a mrb of tyvek, fan fold, or xps to restrict moisure from moving into the wall cavity. 

How would you approach it?


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

rip & remove - do it properly with actual sheathing, flashings & WRB then insulate (or you can always insulate & then install sheathing at same time)


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Homes back then were made like this for many very good reasons.
One of the primary reasons is that the house could breath and dry to both inside and outside without problems. As you can see it held up in your cold/snowy/raining climate very well for a long time.
At the time it was built they didn't care about the energy usage as they considered heat energy to be plentiful and cheap. Well not so nowadays.
If you start to introduce new materials (insulation, vapor barriers, etc.) and such now you have to be careful of what and how you install the new materials.

If they insist on not putting in a drainage plane system now and want to do that next year then in my opinion, I would have them wait to install the insulation until they do put in the drainage plane. Simple as that.

When you take off the siding to re-side then you have another question about bracing the walls for lateral loads like wind in your location, maybe seismic also. In that case your AHJ may want braced panels ala CRC 20xx in your area.

Lots of sh!t to think about when cracking open a wall for any reason.

Andy.


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## philcav7 (Jan 15, 2009)

It's a rental property so owner will want cost effective measures to remedy the situation. He already has the siding in storage, I could do it when spewing weather breaks. 

I'm aware of the potential risk of insulating these old structures. It a way, some of their concepts were very sound at the time. I've torn into 6 year old homes where the osb sheathing was mush due to mosture intrusion. These walls have been getting wet for 90 years with no ill effect since they can dry out. 

These walls were all torn out due to a roof leak, to eliminate some obsolete plumbing on the second floor, and allow electrical upgrades. 


I could skip the insulation for now and dense pack the walls with cellulose when the siding goes up. I can prep for this by filling the open 2nd floor joist bays with spray foam so the cellulose doesn't blow into the joist assembly. The home is getting all new flooring so it's an easy chore. 

I've never seen direct nail clapboard, there has always been plank sheathing, usually with tar paper behind it. To top it off, all framing is 2x3 and 2x6 floor joist. It's held up great!


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

Andy pretty much hit the nail on the head. Couldn't have put it any better myself.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

My house is claps on studs. 

Been pulling it down, sucking out the blown in, air sealing, re-insulating, sheeting, new windows, siding, trim, etc.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Trouble with cellulose is that it's like a giant sponge, I'd be thinking along the lines of roxul or some other hydrophobic inorganic insulation.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Chopped glass


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## philcav7 (Jan 15, 2009)

How would installing baffles along with closed cell foam work in a situation such as this? The baffle would allow circulation/drying of the exterior cladding, while the foam would air seal and vapor barrier. 

Has this been strategy been employed/tested? I couldn't find any info on it.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

O.K., this is what I would do, first and foremost I would wait until it is time to change the siding and determine if I want to put plywood up to act as braced paneling that will take the place of the wood siding acting as paneling. If that makes sense.

Then remove the siding, install your favorite insulation in the walls (Roxul) followed by the ply then the Tyvek and on that and would install 3/8" furring strips then re-install the wood siding and ditch the vinyl as that would be an insult to house. 

Anyway, that is what I would do.

Andy.


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## pappagor (Jan 29, 2008)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> O.K., this is what I would do, first and foremost I would wait until it is time to change the siding and determine if I want to put plywood up to act as braced paneling that will take the place of the wood siding acting as paneling. If that makes sense.
> 
> Then remove the siding, install your favorite insulation in the walls (Roxul) followed by the ply then the Tyvek and on that and would install 3/8" furring strips then re-install the wood siding and ditch the vinyl as that would be an insult to house.
> 
> ...


YEP:thumbsup:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Before you start taking siding off, go down to the basement and look between the joists along top of foundation and make sure there is no signs of brick. It's called brick nogging, this was common way of construction throughout a good portion of late 1800's early 1900's. The bricks acted as a wind barrier, thermal mass and a firestop. Brick also acted to prevent house from rocking back and forth and they would run cross braces between the studs and fill the cavity with brick. In this cases they would nail clap board right to studs, because otherwise without sheeting fist wind that would hit the house, the house would rock and siding would pop right off. 
If you find brick, you will have use foam insulation going right over the clap siding. 
I did a house like this a few years back,* Click Here to see an example in the post #2*


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

greg24k said:


> Before you start taking siding off, go down to the basement and look between the joists along top of foundation and make sure there is no signs of brick. It's called brick nogging, this was common way of construction throughout a good portion of late 1800's early 1900's. The bricks acted as a wind barrier, thermal mass and a firestop. Brick also acted to prevent house from rocking back and forth and they would run cross braces between the studs and fill the cavity with brick. In this cases they would nail clap board right to studs, because otherwise without sheeting fist wind that would hit the house, the house would rock and siding would pop right off.
> If you find brick, you will have use foam insulation going right over the clap siding.
> I did a house like this a few years back,* Click Here to see an example in the post #2*


Thanks for the link. Pictures tell all.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

just knock it down and start over..probably best way in the long run


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

Published this week - may have to sign up for a free trial. GBA is one of the best sources around. Contributors are top notch.

Insulating Walls in an Old House With No Sheathing
POSTED ON FEBRUARY 12, 2016 BY MARTIN HOLLADAY, GBA ADVISOR	IN MUSINGS OF AN ENERGY NERD

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/articles/dept/musings/insulating-walls-old-house-no-sheathing


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

We Fix Houses said:


> Published this week - may have to sign up for a free trial. GBA is one of the best sources around. Contributors are top notch.
> 
> Insulating Walls in an Old House With No Sheathing
> POSTED ON FEBRUARY 12, 2016 BY MARTIN HOLLADAY, GBA ADVISOR	IN MUSINGS OF AN ENERGY NERD
> ...


When opening the link this is what I get.

Andy.


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

The web link is the article. I guess you need to get at least a free trial.

If you choose "No thanks" on that screen, I believe it returns you to the home page.

Top tool bar area -- go to "Blogs" --- its about the fifth article down as it is current. Still have to sign up some way.

Addl - this is a great site. New articles every day. Many you can view without a sign up.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Tom Struble said:


> just knock it down and start over..probably best way in the long run


You know Tom, I was thinking of doing that, but there were zoning issues, the whole house would had to be moved and at that time I had to do it quick in and out and you know how long the zoning changes takes in NJ :laughing: At the end I made more on my investment in comparison to what I would have made if I started from scratch.

On the general note, it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be... Most of the exterior walls were left untouched, I just busted the brick out for the outlets and on the second floor the same thing and put 3/8 sheetrock right over it. HVAC went into the attic and I dropped duct from there into the basement and branched to cover the first floor. Foam insulation on the outside and siding right over it.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

philcav7 said:


> I demo'd a few rooms in a 1929 balloon framed home. There is no sheathing or vapor barrier on the exterior. The wood clapboard siding is nailed directly to the studs.
> 
> There were indications of prior moisture intrusion especially around Windows and the outside corners. Essentially anywhere there's trim, there's moisture staining. Nothing it rotten, but a few spots of mildew/mold.
> 
> ...


One homes that old, when you remove the clapboard, be prepared for potential rot or termite damage at the sill plate... water runs down...

Also, make sure you measure studs... they were 1 5/8" x 3 5/8" back in those days... :whistling

IMHO, wait til spring to do it right... One of the selling points to the "landlord" is it's repairs not improvements (better deductibility), it will cost less for heating/cooling and when he goes to sell it, he is selling a better product...


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## philcav7 (Jan 15, 2009)

Drywall went up with empty walls. We wouldn't pull the clap board to side it. Honestly, it will likely get xps with new vinyl over it. If he allows us to sheath it, I can assure he will only want it laminated over the clapboard...which will still aid in lateral bracing. 

Most of the homes around here are ballooned. I never have seen how any are attached to the stone for uplift. Thankfully I guess. His is hollow top to bottom. 

Entire house is 2x3 framing, they are milled but measure about 2 7/8. 

We will only be doing blown insulation in the attic until we do the siding.


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