# DIYers in the Plumbing Forum



## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

Copied and pasted from a post I made in another thread.



> But that's OK. If y'all want the plumbing section here to basically be a DIY section for other trades then who am I to argue. I thought it was something different and was sorely disappointed. But some of you seem to think that is how it should be.
> 
> I respect the other trades enough to not go ask them how to do DIY stuff on here. I don't see Ron the Plumber over in the electrical forum asking how to run a circuit for the disposer he just installed. Come to think of it, I don't see the electricians asking DIY stuff over here either. Maybe that's because they understand the concept of mutual respect between trades.
> 
> ...


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Here we go, all in context!:thumbup:

22,
I wasn't into the guy's other thread,
so I missed the carry over.
Still seems that there is a place to
let the lowly remodeling guys and
GC's get to know your take on at
least design and layout type stuff.
After all, you don't usually come in and
just randomly decide where the sink is
and where you want the DW and fridge.
Then let the sparky just put his rough
where he feels like it and hope everything
works out?
I get it when you ignore a "how-to",
but where and why can help make life
easier for all of us.
Maybe you haven't noticed, or maybe
it doesn't happen for you, but if I
have everything drawn up and decided
before the rough-ins start
things really do go smoother for everyone.
And I hope everyone makes more money
and gets fewer ulcers that way too!

It took me a lot of time and mistakes
to get to the point where I can make
most jobs run smoothly.
Everyone wants it instantly now.

Maybe it's harder to find the kind of
old time tradesmen I came up with
who would take the time to explain
what, when, and why.
Maybe not enough guys care about
what the other trades do, or why
until they need to know something?

Seems like this could be a place for
some of that (as well as a few laughs)
and still let someone know when you
think he's stepping over the line.

Geeze, I'm starting to get all warm
and fuzzy here.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*Neo,*
*It's one thing if you (and I mean You) come here and ask what clearance a toilet needs from a vanity because you're not sure what your plumber is saying.*
*I'm happy to help you in that respect, despite your rooting for the wrong football team...I still like ya.*
*It's another thing altogether when a newbie with "remodeler" in his listed trade with 3 posts who just joined 2 days ago is asking how to plumb a bathroom.*
*Sorry, I know many of the other trades may find our lack of interest in offering free advice distastful, but it's our choice...I don't see that changing any time soon, certainly appears the plumbers here aren't interested in offering free advice to someone who has decided to skip paying one of us in the first place.*

*If ya really wanna get down to brass taxes, it's illegal in my state and most other states, technically I'm aiding & abetting when I offer advice on DIY.*

*I have seen countless threads started by newbies that get the "treatment" from you guys, yet it's now objectionable when plumbers do the same...interesting.*


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Grumpyplumber said:


> ....
> *I have seen countless threads started by newbies that get the "treatment" from you guys, yet it's now objectionable when plumbers do the same...interesting.*


No not at all!
That part I get, it just seems
that there is some common ground
for all of us to educate each other,
even if it's informing the guy he's 
out of his bailiwick.
And like I said before, it's a different
thing telling why or where, than how.
All of us have to decide who's legit
and who's out of his league.
I'd discuss header sizes with Max,
but not a guy who is talking about
the "fat thingy over the door."

Just don't want to see you guys go 
away pissed when there is so much 
we can contribute to each other
without giving up the farm!
I try to see where you guys are 
coming from, and take the points.
That last thread about the multiple
shower head thing was classic.
I like to see *that* kind of give 
and take here.
I *do *mean it, this is a place where
we can all get an education about 
each other's trades, and that can't be all
bad for anyone.

Hope you see my point, I don't expect you 
guys to run a free plumbing apprenticeship
here.

Like wise I respect your knowledge,
even considering your lack of taste in 
football teams. :laughing:


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

everyone needs to lighten up alittle imo, lets face it there is nothing here that you plumbers know that is not readily available information, your plumbers , not MASONS (AS IN THE SECRET SOCIETY). for me , if i came in here to ask a plumbing question, it would be purely in the spirit of communicating and sharing with some fellow tradesmen. my master plumber is available for me 24-7 for any real question i might have. as for some new guy asking how to roughin a bathroom, i agree this is not the place for that sh##. but again it has been my observation that some of the plumbers here take themselves WAY to serious,


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

genecarp said:


> lets face it there is nothing here that you plumbers know that is not readily available information


Ah, but knowing how to use that information is a different story altogether.


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

ContractorTalk.com is a forum for all contractors. In fact our slogan is "Where The Trades Meet!". The idea is that we can all come together and learn from each other. For one thing business, marketing, and sales discussion is almost universal which I think is a strong point for this site. We also have trade specific forums which is a great place for trade talk but all the topics have cross posting in them between all the trades. I don't think your going to get around that and I don't think it happens just in the plumbing section. I also wouldn't say it's a bad thing in most cases.
As others have said, no one expects you to be offering a free advice line here and frankly if you don't want to respond then don't. But the nature of this forum is to have interaction between all the trades.

We do have www.PlumbingZone.com now which IS just for professional plumbers so I'd suggest hanging out there if this really gets on your nerves. But I still think there is value in this group trade discussion. Everyone has a lot to learn from everyone else!


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

I keep quiet for self-preservation.I don't think many have the balls to do what I've done which is moved my business far from anyone I know or anywhere I've bein.Different codes,different people,different way of doing business,different culture.The business is growing at the pace I had planned on,steady and not too fast.That is until Sept. when I'm going to shake up the market a little more here .I choose not to give away my knowledge though as I am trying to survive and solidify my position in this market.I feel sorry for the apprentice and Journeyman plumbers.
On a side note ,there are more than a handful of people that I respect on this forum that can pm me for advice if they care to.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*Nathan, I agree in respect to the "meeting place for all trades"..but the question here is of profitably & illegally dabbling in trades your not licensed or insured for.*

*I think the underlying tension here revolves around the current market, fact is that many smaller contractors will be forced to lower bids to keep from starving in some cases.*
*Problem is that a there will be plumbers, electricians and other contractors will be passed over as a result.*
*This will directly affect legitimate, established contractors who are then forced to compete with them.*
*Most of the older senior trades members here know to respect that line, if your taking risks with liability and legality to facilitate profit, it appears we're not up to offering free advice on how to avoid paying us.*

*I said it above, I have no problem telling Neo his plumbers layout might need some tweaking for example, I have no problem discussing what stock might be best (despite his awful football team)...especially when I know these guys legitimately hire us and are looking for differing perspectives.*

*However, when we all watch a new poster join, then ask blatent questions regarding doing work he has no right to do...well, hopefully you understand....it's in the best interest of all trades as a whole.*

*As for the exchange of information, I have reaped major benifits in the marketing and business forums by both offering and taking advice (admittedly taken alot more than offer, by far)...there is a wealth of knowledge there thats useful to ALL of us.*
*But there are lines, I joined this forum (read my very first post) on the premise that we were all professionals here, that we all knew what lines not to cross and how to respect each others trades.*


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

Look, I'm not saying people should be doing things that they aren't licensed to do... I'm just saying that there are benefits to learning from each other and that if you see a post that you don't want to answer because its a new guy or it's dangerous then pass it by. But, these sub forums aren't necessarily designed to be JUST for people from that trade. 
For example when I was a construction manager building new homes I might have a question about a plumbing, electrical, or whatever because I want to make sure it's done right. I'm not licensed to do it and in fact I wasn't doing it... but I was responsible for making sure it was done right and I had homeowners to look out for. 

I know it's a bit confusing at times but I would just suggest passing by and not responding to a post that you see as dangerous. Otherwise I'd encourage you to view it as a fair trade between the trades.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Grumpyplumber

22rifle

Might the names have a bit to do with the retorts? 

At least persons are warned up-front! Can not say they were not!

Me? I am just obnoxious on occasion for the sake of be obnoxious!


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## bcradio (Apr 3, 2008)

22rifle said:


> Ah, but knowing how to use that information is a different story altogether.


Ah, but thats what how to manuals/books are for

isn't the world great


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

:thumbsup:THIS SHOULD BE TURNED INTO A REALITY SHOW, if anyone needs carpentry design, concrete, or contracting advice, i have no problem giving it, i do not feel it is my duty to protect the trade in this way, i am confident enough with the clientel and buisness that i have built, that i dont see some new guy as a threat to my livelyhood. now whether or not i have the patiance to answer a beginners questions is another thing.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Nathan said:


> ContractorTalk.com is a forum for all contractors. In fact our slogan is "Where The Trades Meet!". The idea is that we can all come together and learn from each other. For one thing business, marketing, and sales discussion is almost universal which I think is a strong point for this site. We also have trade specific forums which is a great place for trade talk but all the topics have cross posting in them between all the trades. I don't think your going to get around that and I don't think it happens just in the plumbing section. I also wouldn't say it's a bad thing in most cases.
> As others have said, no one expects you to be offering a free advice line here and frankly if you don't want to respond then don't. But the nature of this forum is to have interaction between all the trades.
> 
> We do have www.PlumbingZone.com now which IS just for professional plumbers so I'd suggest hanging out there if this really gets on your nerves. But I still think there is value in this group trade discussion. Everyone has a lot to learn from everyone else!





Nathan said:


> Look, I'm not saying people should be doing things that they aren't licensed to do... I'm just saying that there are benefits to learning from each other and that if you see a post that you don't want to answer because its a new guy or it's dangerous then pass it by. But, these sub forums aren't necessarily designed to be JUST for people from that trade.
> For example when I was a construction manager building new homes I might have a question about a plumbing, electrical, or whatever because I want to make sure it's done right. I'm not licensed to do it and in fact I wasn't doing it... but I was responsible for making sure it was done right and I had homeowners to look out for.
> 
> I know it's a bit confusing at times but I would just suggest passing by and not responding to a post that you see as dangerous. Otherwise I'd encourage you to view it as a fair trade between the trades.


Well said Nathan.
Always grateful for your input,
and creating this space to begin with.

And even allowing people with bad taste in football on here.



If nothing else this exchange has
helped get my mind off this
sprained foot. :laughing::clap:


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

bcradio said:


> Ah, but thats what how to manuals/books are for
> 
> isn't the world great


Plumbing how to manuals and books still only present raw data. Knowing know how to use that data correctly is what makes me not only a professional plumber, but a doggone good one to boot.

Bedsides, those manuals only present a basic overview of all that I have to know to do my job correctly. No one can read a manual and be a good plumber. Or a carpenter.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

genecarp said:


> :thumbsup:THIS SHOULD BE TURNED INTO A REALITY SHOW, if anyone needs carpentry design, concrete, or contracting advice, i have no problem giving it, i do not feel it is my duty to protect the trade in this way, i am confident enough with the clientel and buisness that i have built, that i dont see some new guy as a threat to my livelyhood. now whether or not i have the patiance to answer a beginners questions is another thing.


*There lies the trouble.*
*Obviously you'd know what it's like to sit through 4 hours of classes two nights a week that you paid for on an apprentices salary, fighting off the urge to sleep after a day in hot attic spaces, or freezing crawl spaces, digging trenches, coring concrete & drilling overhead joists.*
*studying for the state exam that you're not allowed to take until you have 5 years of full time experience & 500 hours of schooling, with w-2's to proove it, those years you sometimes thought to yourself that maybe you might not make it, maybe you should just go to college or get into something thats not so filthy & strenuous.*
*But Gene, you made it...you met that criteria, you now have the license & time in, you paid the price...*
*When you finally aced the masonry exam, the remodeling exam & the drywall exam...after all those long hard years you are still able to give those lessons away freely.*
*That makes you a much better person than I...by far.*


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

bcradio said:


> Ah, but thats what how to manuals/books are for
> 
> isn't the world great


*Those books, sold most frequently from HD, have made me a lot of money.*


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

MALCO.New.York said:


> Grumpyplumber
> 
> 22rifle
> 
> ...


*Been meaning to ask...what do you do for a living?*


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *There lies the trouble.*
> *Obviously you'd know what it's like to sit through 4 hours of classes two nights a week that you paid for on an apprentices salary, fighting off the urge to sleep after a day in hot attic spaces, or freezing crawl spaces, digging trenches, coring concrete & drilling overhead joists.*
> *studying for the state exam that you're not allowed to take until you have 5 years of full time experience & 500 hours of schooling, with w-2's to proove it, those years you sometimes thought to yourself that maybe you might not make it, maybe you should just go to college or get into something thats not so filthy & strenuous.*
> *But Gene, you made it...you met that criteria, you now have the license & time in, you paid the price...*
> ...


YOU MAKE A VALID POINT, SOMETIMES I FORGET JUST WHAT IT TOOK TO GET HERE, THANKS:thumbsup:


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Why did we even go to school, we should have just become GC's, GC's don't need school to become a plumber, that just do it. All this time the state convensed me I need a plumbing license to do plumbing work, forced me to school, work long hours in the ditches, take a closed book exam and a pratical exam.

Boy I feel cheated in my career.

All I really needed was a GC license.


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## nick114920 (Sep 24, 2007)

As a GC id like to let all you guys know i have learned a ton on this website. Without a doubt enough to do some of the work myself instead of sub it out. This saves me $$.... Now yes you do have some guys (especially in plumbing and electrical) who spank themselves to this website and talk code code code and will not give up any info.. My question is if your not here to trade info then why are you here at all??? If anyone is refering to my shower jets post its unfortunate i had to change my question 20 times in order to get some info. but after recieving some info from some great plumbers (mike finley) on this website i went to the supply store and learned everything about shower jets in about an hour. I did the job (with my greatest employee paco) and it came out great and i def saved myself some cash by not having to sub it out. This is why i am on here and i also try to share knowledge that i have even with these one time DIY. Besides if we are that great at our jobs then why are we so afraid of a little competition?? thats why i just think all these guys on here, who are pissed at the fact paco and taco are stealing their trades , should do something about it instead of spanking themselves to this website 24/7... go get a job


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

And you just don't get it.
Too bad good advice was wasted
on an admitted liar.
You are truly a sorry excuse for
a human being.
Nothing personal you understand.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Nick

I reported you to the powers to be on here, not sure it will do any good but I sure hope it does.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

nick114920 said:


> As a GC id like to let all you guys know i have learned a ton on this website. Without a doubt enough to do some of the work myself instead of sub it out. This saves me $$.... Now yes you do have some guys (especially in plumbing and electrical) who spank themselves to this website and talk code code code and will not give up any info.. My question is if your not here to trade info then why are you here at all??? If anyone is refering to my shower jets post its unfortunate i had to change my question 20 times in order to get some info. but after recieving some info from some great plumbers (mike finley) on this website i went to the supply store and learned everything about shower jets in about an hour. I did the job (with my greatest employee paco) and it came out great and i def saved myself some cash by not having to sub it out. This is why i am on here and i also try to share knowledge that i have even with these one time DIY. Besides if we are that great at our jobs then why are we so afraid of a little competition?? thats why i just think all these guys on here, who are pissed at the fact paco and taco are stealing their trades , should do something about it instead of spanking themselves to this website 24/7... go get a job


*From here on in, I'll just post a copy of this to anyone who asks why the plumbers won't give out freebies here.*
*Thank you Nick for the helpful & informative response.*


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

nick114920 said:


> As a GC id like to let all you guys know i have learned a ton on this website. Without a doubt enough to do some of the work myself instead of sub it out. This saves me $$.... Now yes you do have some guys (especially in plumbing and electrical) who spank themselves to this website and talk code code code and will not give up any info.. My question is if your not here to trade info then why are you here at all??? If anyone is refering to my shower jets post its unfortunate i had to change my question 20 times in order to get some info. but after recieving some info from some great plumbers (mike finley) on this website i went to the supply store and learned everything about shower jets in about an hour. I did the job (with my greatest employee paco) and it came out great and i def saved myself some cash by not having to sub it out. This is why i am on here and i also try to share knowledge that i have even with these one time DIY. Besides if we are that great at our jobs then why are we so afraid of a little competition?? thats why i just think all these guys on here, who are pissed at the fact paco and taco are stealing their trades , should do something about it instead of spanking themselves to this website 24/7... go get a job


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

All you mods, etc. who think we are too hard on people, can't judge them right off, etc.

Now what you got to say for yourselves?

I want to say "Kiss this" but am trying to be respectful.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

nick114920 said:


> As a GC id like to let all you guys know i have learned a ton on this website. Without a doubt enough to do some of the work myself instead of sub it out. This saves me $$.... Now yes you do have some guys (especially in plumbing and electrical) who spank themselves to this website and talk code code code and will not give up any info.. My question is if your not here to trade info then why are you here at all??? If anyone is refering to my shower jets post its unfortunate i had to change my question 20 times in order to get some info. but after recieving some info from some great plumbers (mike finley) on this website i went to the supply store and learned everything about shower jets in about an hour. I did the job (with my greatest employee paco) and it came out great and i def saved myself some cash by not having to sub it out. This is why i am on here and i also try to share knowledge that i have even with these one time DIY. Besides if we are that great at our jobs then why are we so afraid of a little competition?? thats why i just think all these guys on here, who are pissed at the fact paco and taco are stealing their trades , should do something about it instead of spanking themselves to this website 24/7... go get a job


:ban::ban::ban:


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> :ban::ban::ban:



Noooo... you don't understand... they want us to kiss and make up...


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

22rifle said:


> Noooo... you don't understand... they want us to kiss and make up...


Not with the likes of him.
Cynical as I am, I won't conduct my 
life based on the existence of the
lowest scum that slimes my path.


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## Nathan (Jul 21, 2003)

I'm not sure I understand everything going on in this thread. There seems to be some history behind some of the posts that I'm missing. 

ContractorTalk.com has always been a place where all the trades meet and share ideas. It's not a single trade site and never has been. Once again I'd suggest going to www.plumbingzone.com if your looking for a single trade site. 

I think everything that needs to be said has been said and it looks like this is going down hill so I'm closing the thread.

For reference I'm copying the responses I posted earlier....



Nathan said:


> ContractorTalk.com is a forum for all contractors. In fact our slogan is "Where The Trades Meet!". The idea is that we can all come together and learn from each other. For one thing business, marketing, and sales discussion is almost universal which I think is a strong point for this site. We also have trade specific forums which is a great place for trade talk but all the topics have cross posting in them between all the trades. I don't think your going to get around that and I don't think it happens just in the plumbing section. I also wouldn't say it's a bad thing in most cases.
> As others have said, no one expects you to be offering a free advice line here and frankly if you don't want to respond then don't. But the nature of this forum is to have interaction between all the trades.
> 
> We do have www.PlumbingZone.com now which IS just for professional plumbers so I'd suggest hanging out there if this really gets on your nerves. But I still think there is value in this group trade discussion. Everyone has a lot to learn from everyone else!





Nathan said:


> Look, I'm not saying people should be doing things that they aren't licensed to do... I'm just saying that there are benefits to learning from each other and that if you see a post that you don't want to answer because its a new guy or it's dangerous then pass it by. But, these sub forums aren't necessarily designed to be JUST for people from that trade.
> For example when I was a construction manager building new homes I might have a question about a plumbing, electrical, or whatever because I want to make sure it's done right. I'm not licensed to do it and in fact I wasn't doing it... but I was responsible for making sure it was done right and I had homeowners to look out for.
> 
> I know it's a bit confusing at times but I would just suggest passing by and not responding to a post that you see as dangerous. Otherwise I'd encourage you to view it as a fair trade between the trades.


Thanks. :blink:


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