# Keeping a floor flat & back buttering



## lifestooshort81 (Sep 8, 2012)

Hey folks. 
Two questions here. I have been doing tile work for some time now but no expert. I love tiling and always open to learning new techniques to better my work and speed things up. 

First thing I'm running across is a wavy subfloor. This is turn is creating a lot of lippage and it's taking me a long while to flatten out the tiles. I know this is mostly prevented by a different opinion but next time I do a floor like this how can I prevent this other than self-leveler. I used Durock as a substrate and screwed it work; taping and thin setting the seams. I did not thinset the panels to the floor like I have heard some do. I never have and have done several floors this way with no issues. Just looking for new techniques etc. 

Secondly someone asked me why you back butter tiles. I honestly don't know and just learned this way, so that makes me wonder as I'm a curious person, why does on back butter a tile? I have been using a 1/4x1/4 sq trowel and spread mud on the floor in a straight line then back butter the tile and set it.

Thank is advance


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

For leveling:

Instead of using a backer board you can mud the floor using lath and mortar. This is what separates the the boys from the men. Using self leveler is a viable option, and I have had lots of good success doing so. 

Back buttering:

I am going to get crap for this, but to me there is a time and a place for back buttering, and it is not on every install. You said you are using a 1/4" x 1/4" trowel, that is a pretty small trowel for floor tile, I would at least be using a 3/8" x 1/4" trowel.


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## duburban (Apr 10, 2008)

its really to "burn" the thin set into the back of the tile. it ensures a proper bond to the thin set on the floor. you can add more back butter for extra leveling but all you need is a thin layer burned into the back.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Firstly, thanks for your dedication to your trade and thirst for knowledge. People like you are becoming a rare commodity. 

Secondly, I have never not thinset concrete board down and you should never do it again. This is a critical step and you have only been lucky so far that none have failed.

Thirdly, like stated above 1/4 by 1/4 trowel is the smallest one in our arsenal of choices. For uneven surfaces and with large format tiles we have used all the way up to 1/2 by 1/2 square. 

Lastly, with regards to back buttering the tiles. The number one most important fact is that achieving bondage between the mortar bed and the back of the tile is your main objective. This is measured in coverage which can be gauged by randomly removing freshly laid tiles and seeing what percentage of the tile has thinset stuck to the back of it. This is a hard discipline because its not easy to pluck a perfectly set tile after you just worked so hard to lay it, but is one that is necessary to ensure that your clients are recieving top notch installations. 

In my opinion.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

If you have any pictures of jobs you have done we would love to see them! :clap:


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Al,

Matt has it. CBD should be laid into thinset. It not only supports the cement board but can help flatten the floor by filling low spots.

To help prevent lippage, get a longer trowel (16"). Use it for both the cement board and tile setting. 

Set floor tile with a larger notch trowel. The more material under the tile, the more you can float over the floor's imperfections. 1/4x3/8 is our minimum floor notch.

Some thinsets, like Ultra contact (Mapei), are made to allow the tile to squish into the thinset achieving a better contact without back buttering.


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## lifestooshort81 (Sep 8, 2012)

Thanks all for the input. I learned from an "old schooler" not that there is anything wrong with that but he could be stuck in his ways. I'm a firm believer in that the learning never stops. You could be using the same tile and backer and thinset for 30 years but maybe in year 29 someone or some company did research and found you don't need product or step x (for all intents and purposes) or maybe you need to include step Y. My point is to stay open minded, keep learning what's out there and work with what works for you. I know I'm a rare breed. I even drive the dentist nuts because I like learning what the heck they're doing in my mouth. 

Ok so thin setting cement board is necessary. Now I'll probably get flack for this, or at least corrected but I'm using 1/2" Durock as my underlayment. I'm laying 13"x13" tiles and using (please go easy on me) LASH clips from the big orange box store to "level" the tiles where I need to. 

I do own a 1/4x3/8 trowel. I'll start using it.

As for back buttering I was kind of under the impression that's all it was done for. Almost like priming the surface so to speak! 

Well on that note I will keep researching tiling methods. Thanks for your input and as an artist once told me, by not sharing our craft it will die. I'm young (so to speak) and look forward to plenty more years doing things the right way.


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## Sprung831 (Apr 4, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> achieving *bondage*




Sorry Matt, I had to! :laughing::laughing:


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## CCSERV (Dec 18, 2012)

I'm not a tile expert by any means. However, TOH taught me that back buttering creates a better adhesion + a more level surface - especially if running your grooves on the tile perpendicular to those on the substrate


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

lifestooshort81 said:


> Hey folks.
> Two questions here. I have been doing tile work for some time now but no expert. I love tiling and always open to learning new techniques to better my work and speed things up.
> 
> First thing I'm running across is a wavy subfloor. This is turn is creating a lot of lippage and it's taking me a long while to flatten out the tiles. I know this is mostly prevented by a different opinion but next time I do a floor like this how can I prevent this other than self-leveler. I used Durock as a substrate and screwed it work; taping and thin setting the seams. I did not thinset the panels to the floor like I have heard some do. I never have and have done several floors this way with no issues. Just looking for new techniques etc.
> ...


1/4 x 1/4 square notched trowel? There's your problem (or part of it anyways). 

Kudos to you for wanting to learn proper methods. :thumbsup:


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## lifestooshort81 (Sep 8, 2012)

HS345 said:


> 1/4 x 1/4 square notched trowel? There's your problem (or part of it anyways).
> 
> Kudos to you for wanting to learn proper methods. :thumbsup:


Um yeah, after doing the research via this thread I went and got the right trowel and wowie-zowie what a difference!!!!! I want to shoot myself for not knowing this sooner. The guy I "learned" from was an old schooler and if I know him the way I think I know him, he probably had several 1/4" trowels and didn't want to buy new do just used them and made a thicker layer with them. 

Thanks for the compliment, I love learning and really only like to do things the "right way" even it it takes a few extra seconds per piece, etx. I've found if you do shotty work to be "quick" this only leads to a service call costing you money. Learning how to do something right and actually doing it right ultimately insures you won't get a service call on your work but a service call to fix someone else's shotty work LOL


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

lifestooshort81 said:


> Um yeah, after doing the research via this thread I went and got the right trowel and wowie-zowie what a difference!!!!! I want to shoot myself for not knowing this sooner. The guy I "learned" from was an old schooler and if I know him the way I think I know him, he probably had several 1/4" trowels and didn't want to buy new do just used them and made a thicker layer with them.
> 
> Thanks for the compliment, I love learning and really only like to do things the "right way" even it it takes a few extra seconds per piece, etx. I've found if you do shotty work to be "quick" this only leads to a service call costing you money. Learning how to do something right and actually doing it right ultimately insures you won't get a service call on your work but a service call to fix someone else's shotty work LOL


Use a 1/2×1/2 and you wont worry about "bondage" (lmao) or back buttering unless its lft.......


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

lifestooshort81 said:


> Thanks all for the input. I learned from an "old schooler" not that there is anything wrong with that but he could be stuck in his ways. I'm a firm believer in that the learning never stops. You could be using the same tile and backer and thinset for 30 years but maybe in year 29 someone or some company did research and found you don't need product or step x (for all intents and purposes) or maybe you need to include step Y. My point is to stay open minded, keep learning what's out there and work with what works for you. I know I'm a rare breed. I even drive the dentist nuts because I like learning what the heck they're doing in my mouth.
> 
> Ok so thin setting cement board is necessary. Now I'll probably get flack for this, or at least corrected but I'm using 1/2" Durock as my underlayment. I'm laying 13"x13" tiles and using (please go easy on me) LASH clips from the big orange box store to "level" the tiles where I need to.
> 
> ...


If he was a true "old schooler" he would of only done wire lath with a mud bed. Never met a real old stuborn dude who used cement board.

If your using a 13x13 tile i would only grab a 1/2" x 1/2" sq notch trowel.

If you mix the thinset correctly you wont need to back butter a tile that large. But you can check by laying tile and prying it back up. If there nice coverage your good to go. If not, then back butter. I always like to back butter. Makes me know i did a good, strong job.


And btw mud your board down. Or better yet use an uncoupling membrane.


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## lifestooshort81 (Sep 8, 2012)

Rich D. said:


> If he was a true "old schooler" he would of only done wire lath with a mud bed. Never met a real old stuborn dude who used cement board.
> 
> If your using a 13x13 tile i would only grab a 1/2" x 1/2" sq notch trowel.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right. My brother in laws father is a true old schooler. When they were replacing carpet I saw the tile job he did 20 years ago and yep it was a mud bed. Floor looks feels and is rock solid. 

As for the guy I "learned" from used 1/2" board where I'm learning you really only need 1/4" board, thinsetted down and taped, yeah he's a little stubborn in his own way, god forbid I even made a suggestion I don't "know anything". 

Regardless I'll be doin it right from here on out or at least asking how to! 

thanks all!


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

It's personal taste but I prefer a half moon trowel. I use a 3/8x3/8 half moon most of the time for standard floor tile. 1/2x1/2 half moon for stone or planks.


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