# 12 vs. 14 guage for whole house remodel



## bk29 (Nov 1, 2010)

Just wanted to get perspectives from you guys. I have a whole house remodel with new electrical throughout. My electrician is planning to use 14 gauge/15 amp on the regular outlets and 12 gauge/20 amp for the kitchen/bath, etc. I'm inclined to have everything wired with 12. I don't mind spending a bit more on wire. He said that 14 gauge/15 amp circuit is better if there's a problem with an appliance - the breaker will trip sooner. I think it would be better to have 20 amp circuits because you never know where someone may be plugging in hair dryers, curling irons, portable heaters, etc. Am I pushing for overkill or is 12 gauge and 20 amp pretty standard out there for those who don't mind a bit extra cost? The panel will be a 200 amp/40 circuit square D blue line if that makes any difference. Thanks in advance.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Everyone has their own preference in what size circuits they like to run and this has been discussed many times. I myself use 12ga/20 amp circuits for all receptacles and i use 14ga/15amp circuits for all lighting.


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## bk29 (Nov 1, 2010)

Thanks for the reply Chuck. I figured this is a probably a question that gets beat to death among electricians. BTW - I see your from North Creek. I'm from Jersey but I spent ten summers up the road from you at a camp called Northern Frontier. It's back in the woods between North Creek and Indian Lake. I figure you've probably seen the sign. Have they thrown you any work over the years?


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

x2. I like to use 12 gauge wherever possible. The extra cost isn't that much. But, it is personal preference for the most part.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Using #12 wire for receptacles & appliances is pretty much standard out here. The whole house is roped in #12.

Anyways, it's your house. If you want all #12 wire tell the Sparky that's what you want.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

> He said that 14 gauge/15 amp circuit is better if there's a problem with an appliance - the breaker will trip sooner.


I agree. Look at the cord on your alarm clock and compare it to the cord on your toaster. Do you want that alarm clock on a 20 amp breaker while your kids are sleeping next to it?


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

our local code requires #12 even for 15A circuits. 

If you want it to trip easier, use #12 with a 15A breaker. There really isn't much difference in the total price. If your sparkey was only using it (#14) for general lighting, there isn't all that many circuits anyway.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

I suspect 14 and hair dryer did a flat screen in for me. It dang sure did a number on the receptical. Now I have the wife use the hair dryer in another room. I used 12 in that room.

I wish I had not used any 14 in the house. Thankfully, I have only used it in 2 rooms.

I may someday use 14 for lights, if I ever get around to changing the old wire out.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

That most likely had nothing at all to do with the gauge of wire used. You had a poor connection, either where the wire was fastened or in the prong contacts. Poor connections become resistive, and that causes heat to develop--much more heat than you'll ever get by pushing 15A through 14 ga wire.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

K2 said:


> I agree. Look at the cord on your alarm clock and compare it to the cord on your toaster. Do you want that alarm clock on a 20 amp breaker while your kids are sleeping next to it?


????
No, but the rule of thumb, IMO, should be always to run #12 awg for the Receptacles. You still can protect the circuit with a 15 amp breaker.
.
Do you want your kids to be in a house with #14 awg wire for all the receptacles knowing that they might be overloaded much easier than #12 awg ? A hair dryer dryer, which many use in their bedrooms are almost at that 14 awg limit by itself. Breakers are a protection but don't always trip & wires can ignite when they are over their amperage ratings................ I would feel a lot safer with the 12 !!!


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## [email protected] (Oct 22, 2010)

Your kitchen and bathroom outlets are going to be covered by a gfci anyways and afci breakers on the bed rooms, so overloading the circuit shouldn't be a worry.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

I never use 14 Ga. It is fine to be used on 15 amp circuits however. The cost difference is negligable. It is your house, if it makes you feel better, just tell him to run and the 15amp and 20 amp circuits with 12 Ga.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Your kitchen and bathroom outlets are going to be covered by a gfci anyways and afci breakers on the bed rooms, so overloading the circuit shouldn't be a worry.


????? 
Matt, Being Gfi & Afci has nothing to do with the overloading of a circuit............... !


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Your kitchen and bathroom outlets are going to be covered by a gfci anyways and afci breakers on the bed rooms, so overloading the circuit shouldn't be a worry.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

bk29 said:


> Thanks for the reply Chuck. I figured this is a probably a question that gets beat to death among electricians. BTW - I see your from North Creek. I'm from Jersey but I spent ten summers up the road from you at a camp called Northern Frontier. It's back in the woods between North Creek and Indian Lake. I figure you've probably seen the sign. Have they thrown you any work over the years?


Northern Frontier sounds familiar, quite a few camps up that way too. Gore Electric gets most of the business between here and Blue Mt Lake area. I sub for him every now and again but i myself have little to no work in this area. I do most of my business in the Chestertown, Friends Lake, Loon Lake, Hague, Sherman Lake and Schroon Lake area. My "home town" of North Creek consists of 3% of my business area, i am very well known in this area and well liked too, no one wants to spend money here is all.


As far as my personal preference of using 14ga/15 amps for lighting it is because most lighting has a 16-14ga wiring at best so i prefer to use a smaller wire for easier connections and better protection.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

And welcome to the site, go to introductions and introduce yourself.


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## [email protected] (Oct 22, 2010)

mrmike said:


> ?????
> Matt, Being Gfi & Afci has nothing to do with the overloading of a circuit............... !


My bad, I didn't mean covered by overloading the circuit, but covered as he was worried about a hairdryer or something going bad and not tripping the breaker. I should have worded it better.
I may have misinterpreted what he was worried about though now that I re-read his question.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Tinstaafl said:


> That most likely had nothing at all to do with the gauge of wire used. You had a *poor connection*, either where the wire was fastened or in the prong contacts. Poor connections become resistive, and that causes heat to develop--much more heat than you'll ever get by pushing 15A through 14 ga wire.


Possible, I know. Anyway, it blew the top part of the receptical and the tv bit the dust that day or soon afterward.

Like someone said though, some of the dryers pull quite a bit plus the flatscreen was plugged to the same receptical. I figure 1 flatscreen, 2 lamps, and air filter machine, 1 1400 watt (I think) blow dryer is pushing the 14 awg wire.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

bk29 said:


> He said that 14 gauge/15 amp circuit is better if there's a problem with an appliance - the breaker will trip sooner.


This is completely false, and pretty silly as well. 

Trip "sooner" if there is a problem??? Is he serious? 

Sorry K2, your alarm clock logic really makes no sense to me.

Also, to suggest using #12 on a 15A circuit also makes absolutely no sense to me. Unless of course it is a heavily loaded circuit and is quite long in distance. To use #12 on a 15A breaker is nothing more than a waste of a potential 5 amps of circuit capacity.


In a house I use #12 for _most_ receptacles circuit and #14 for most all lighting circuits. I see no reason to use #12 for lighting circuits, and in some cases it can be a detriment. Like when you have multi-gang boxes with 3 & 4-ways and dimmers. 

And NO, cost has NOTHING to do with it.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

mrmike said:


> Breakers are a protection but don't always trip & wires can ignite when they are over their amperage ratings................ I would feel a lot safer with the 12 !!!


HUH???
Ignoring 240.4(D) for a moment, have you every really looked at 310.16 and the actual ratings of #12 and #14???


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Then you need to wire your entire house with 240v 15a receps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No I use the 20 amp t-style receptacle.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

rbsremodeling said:


> No I use the 20 amp t-style receptacle.



That would be a T-slot, on the opposite side of the 120v version. :thumbsup:

Now, my question is, what normal item do you have in your house that requires a 120v 20a receptacles?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Hey how about we discuss which direction we should install receptacals? :laughing:

I'm no electrician but I put 14AWG in my own house....and I used 15amp breakers....I guess I want to kill myself and my kids.....oh and my smokes are wired with 18AWG.:w00t:


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Hey how about we discuss which direction we should install receptacals? :laughing:
> 
> Then after that lets discuss what orientation all the cover plate screws should be in. I heard its best to spin them in so the slots all face different directions to confuse the eye.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

After all that is decided, we can debate whether all NM staples should have plastic on them.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I like to fasten all my wire upside down. :smartass:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

If 12AWG is so much better why not use 10AWG!

Heck BX would provide more protection against your wife hanging a clock with a 3.5" nail...lets all agree to only use 10AWG BX. Oh and to reduce stocking cost just carry 3 wire, because 3 wire is better than 2.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Screw it. 250kcmil in 4" GRC all day long.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> If 12AWG is so much better why not use 10AWG!
> 
> Heck BX would provide more protection against your wife hanging a clock with a 3.5" nail...lets all agree to only use 10AWG BX. Oh and to reduce stocking cost just carry 3 wire, because 3 wire is better than 2.


 
Don't be ridiculous.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Doubleoh7 said:


> Don't be ridiculous.


Should he be a crustie cookie instead?


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

bk29 said:


> Just wanted to get perspectives from you guys. I have a whole house remodel with new electrical throughout. My electrician is planning to use 14 gauge/15 amp on the regular outlets and 12 gauge/20 amp for the kitchen/bath, etc. I'm inclined to have everything wired with 12. I don't mind spending a bit more on wire. He said that 14 gauge/15 amp circuit is better if there's a problem with an appliance - the breaker will trip sooner. I think it would be better to have 20 amp circuits because you never know where someone may be plugging in hair dryers, curling irons, portable heaters, etc. Am I pushing for overkill or is 12 gauge and 20 amp pretty standard out there for those who don't mind a bit extra cost? The panel will be a 200 amp/40 circuit square D blue line if that makes any difference. Thanks in advance.




I'd say that's fine to do if that's what you want. The 20 amp circuit has more amperage capability meaning less home runs and circuit breakers. Nothing wrong with using 12 AWG everywhere. :thumbsup:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> I'd say that's fine to do if that's what you want. The 20 amp circuit has more amperage capability meaning less home runs and circuit breakers. Nothing wrong with using 12 AWG everywhere. :thumbsup:


That I have no problems with, its your preference. I just don't get why people consider 14AWG to be "unsafe" and think that 12AWG makes a world of difference. 

As a side note, I find connecting electronic dimmers with flimsy stranded pigtails a real pain to tie in when using 12AWG.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Should he be a crustie cookie instead?


 
:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> That I have no problems with, its your preference. I just don't get why people consider 14AWG to be "unsafe" and think that 12AWG makes a world of difference.
> 
> As a side note, I find connecting electronic dimmers with flimsy stranded pigtails a real pain to tie in when using 12AWG.


14 Ga. on a 15 amp circuit is completely safe. I just don't use it.


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## bk29 (Nov 1, 2010)

Thanks for the responses guys. I appreciate the input. I'm guessing there's a story related to "crusty cookie."


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Inner10 said:


> Hey how about we discuss which direction we should install receptacles? :laughing:


As pictured would get MY vote. ALWAYS!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

One disadvantage to using all 12 is you have to pay more attention to your box fill. I know I've come across some situations where I would have to alter my 'normal' method of wiring with 14 in order to keep my box fill legal.





bk29 said:


> .......I'm guessing there's a story related to "crusty cookie."


I think there is, too, but I'm not in to children's stories.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Speedy Petey said:


> This is completely false, and pretty silly as well.
> 
> Trip "sooner" if there is a problem??? Is he serious?
> 
> .


Overload current would trip a 15 amp breaker sooner than a 20 and i'm certain that short circuit or fault current would also trip a 15 before a 20. Overload can occur by multiple pieces of equipment on one circuit but one piece of faulty equipment can also cause overload in which case i would prefer to be on a 15amp. As far as protection from too much equipment on a 15 amp circuit, just add more 15 amp circuits. Arc fault protection would probably change the equation but my county has not adopted those requirements yet.

And as you already touched on, "box fill", becomes an issue when everything is run in #12. 

Bottom line for me would be to hire the best electrician i could find and let him do his job.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

12, at times, adds a certain level of "Force" when dealing with boxes. 

But practice makes perfect and over time, it becomes as easy as 14.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

MALCO.New.York said:


> 12, at times, adds a certain level of "Force" when dealing with boxes.


A good reason for 314.16.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

K2 said:


> Overload current would trip a 15 amp breaker sooner than a 20 and i'm certain that short circuit or fault current would also trip a 15 before a 20. Overload can occur by multiple pieces of equipment on one circuit but one piece of faulty equipment can also cause overload in which case i would prefer to be on a 15amp. As far as protection from too much equipment on a 15 amp circuit, just add more 15 amp circuits. Arc fault protection would probably change the equation but my county has not adopted those requirements yet.
> 
> And as you already touched on, "box fill", becomes an issue when everything is run in #12.
> 
> Bottom line for me would be to hire the best electrician i could find and let him do his job.


Incorrect. 15a breakers do not and will not open as soon as the current reaches 15.0000000000001 amps, nor will a 20a breaker open as soon as it reaches 20.00000000001 amps either.

Resi breakers have two trip methods.... thermal and magnetic. One (thermal) senses excessive heat (as during an overload) and the other (magnetic) senses magnetic fields (as during a short circuit).

All breakers will trip in about the same amount of time in a short circuit. They are not all identical times, and there will be subtle differences in the manufacturing process. This is called 'tolerance' in the manufacturing and testing processes, and is shown in the orange band below. But all should open within 7-10 cycles. This is why you sometimes will short out a 15- or 20-a branch circuit, and the main will trip instead. When you short a circuit, it's simply a horse race on which breaker will open first. If the main opens first, this is due to a lack of proper co-ordination in the system, but that's another story.

During an overload situation (NOT a short circuit, which is altogether a different animal!), whether or not the breaker even trips depends on the time the overload is impressed on the circuit, and how much over the breaker's rating it is. This is due to the inverse-time function of the breaker. The higher the overload, the quicker the breaker is to respond.

This means a 20a breaker may take 10 minutes to open when there's 20.5 amps flowing. Increase the current to 22 amps, and it may trip in 2 minutes. 30 amps takes 10 seconds. 50 amps, 2 seconds. 200 amps, 0.1 seconds.


I'll apologize for the large image, but I left it this big to be able to read. This is a standard 'trip curve' chart for breakers used in residential panels. It should be self-explanatory.











Using this type of 'trip curve' in designing breakers, you now have breakers that will not trip as soon as your air compressor, garbage disposal, dishwasher, dryer, furnace, sump pump, washing machine, or any other motor-driven appliance turns on. Trust me.... your AC compressor draws anywhere form 50-150 amps for a fraction of a second when it first starts up. (This explains why your lights may dim when that happens.) Without this 'inverse-time' method, you'd never get any motors to start unless you used an ungodly huge wire to feed them with. Image using a 200a breaker and trying to hook up 3/0 to your _air conditioner_!  Now apply that to ALL the motors in your house.

The reason this brief over-current is allowed is because such short bursts do not create enough heat to degrade the insulation on the wires. But if the excess current is allowed to continue, the thermal trip mechanism of the breaker will react and open the circuit, protecting the insulation.


In short, the only difference (from a safety standpoint) between using 14 and 12 in a residence is when there would be a 15.1 to 20.0 amp load on the circuit. A 15 breaker will _eventually _trip, and a 20 _never will_. Introduce a short circuit, and there's _no difference_ between a 15a and a 20a breaker in terms of safety.




And everyone thinks electricity is 'easy'. Now, how many 12-year-old *euphamism-for-a-people-with-diminished-mental-capacity-deleted-here* will know this?​


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

As said before it is all a matter of opinion and i believe as this topic has gone it may be how we estimate/charge for our work too. I personally charge the same price per box for 14ga and 12ga circuits but i will save money by using the 14ga wire for the lighting circuits. I also charge for each home run to the panel so if the HO wants every room on its own circuit then that is more for me to charge for. We are here to make money, keep the customer happy and make it easier for ourselves and the next guy.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Nice write up 480.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Now, how many 12-year-old *euphamism-for-a-people-with-diminished-mental-capacity-deleted-here* will know this?


All of us, now that you told. Silly.

And you misspelled "euphemism." :smartass:


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

> Introduce a short circuit, and there's no difference between a 15a and a 20a breaker in terms of safety.


I stand corrected, at least in theory.


Colorado now has a sit down retest at a test center for all electricians in 2011. I better brush up.:sad:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

K2 said:


> I stand corrected, at least in theory......


It's not theory. It's the process which breakers have been manufactured by for decades.




K2 said:


> .....Colorado now has a sit down retest at a test center for all electricians in 2011. I better brush up.:sad:


This type of stuff usually isn't on tests.





Tinstaafl said:


> All of us, now that you told. Silly...........


Assuming everyone can read. :laughing:


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## cleanhoods (Oct 22, 2010)

bk29 said:


> Just wanted to get perspectives from you guys. I have a whole house remodel with new electrical throughout. My electrician is planning to use 14 gauge/15 amp on the regular outlets and 12 gauge/20 amp for the kitchen/bath, etc. I'm inclined to have everything wired with 12. I don't mind spending a bit more on wire. He said that 14 gauge/15 amp circuit is better if there's a problem with an appliance - the breaker will trip sooner. I think it would be better to have 20 amp circuits because you never know where someone may be plugging in hair dryers, curling irons, portable heaters, etc. Am I pushing for overkill or is 12 gauge and 20 amp pretty standard out there for those who don't mind a bit extra cost? The panel will be a 200 amp/40 circuit square D blue line if that makes any difference. Thanks in advance.


I would go with all 12 gauge service and commercial grade plugs and switches. When i build my home i put those in the house and the outdoor plug i put at 30 amp service so i dont have issues with my equiptmnet when i want to plug and use it.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

cleanhoods said:


> I would go with all 12 gauge service and commercial grade plugs and switches. When i build my home i put those in the house and the outdoor plug i put at 30 amp service so i dont have issues with my equiptmnet when i want to plug and use it.



You installed 20a receps on a 30a circuit? That's a Code violation right there.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

I just want to add another + for using #12 awg & 20amp receptacles. 
I have many times plugged in my dual tank portable air compressor, a big tile saw, and a big floor sander into customers receptacles only to have them trip because they were 15 amp circuits.
IMO, the more these trips happen, a weak spot in the circuit can be made, even in the breaker itself, as they arc when they break the overload.............


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

So, we should all wire our houses for that once-every-five-years occurance when a skilled tradesman comes to your house and wants to plug in some monster tool?

Cripes, there's a 20a circuit _somewhere_ in the house. _Use a freakin' extension cord! _


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

cleanhoods said:


> When i build my home i put those in the house and the outdoor plug i put at 30 amp service so i dont have issues with my equiptmnet when i want to plug and use it.


 :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## Electricmanscot (Feb 6, 2005)

Awesome thread. :no: Yikes.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)




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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

It's easier to wire in 14 gauge than 12 gauge, the wires are more bendable/workable. That's probably why your electrician is leaning towards the 15 amp, 14 gauge circuits, it's just more convenient for him. Although I've heard other reasons for it too, one electrician told me it's safer to run 15 amp circuits in case you drop a hair dryer in the bathtub or something. But that's not true, it only takes 0.2 amps to kill somebody, a 15 breaker isn't going to save you. 

Did you ask the homeowner what they prefer? If the customer wants 20 amp circuits for the outlets, then tell your electrician to do that.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

480sparky said:


> So, we should all wire our houses for that once-every-five-years occurance when a skilled tradesman comes to your house and wants to plug in some monster tool?
> 
> Cripes, there's a 20a circuit _somewhere_ in the house. _Use a freakin' extension cord! _


 
That is exactly what I end up doing------- BUT you missed the Point ! It is not only a big tool- but a vacuum or a hair dryer with other things on that circuit that overloads the 15 amp circuit causing trips that can lead to failures................ Which I have seen many---- I have experienced Breakers & overloads blowing up---- Do you think that breaker is going to work everytime???? I know otherwise..................as you should--- you must have seen a burned up breaker in your travels..........


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)




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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Inner10 said:


> That I have no problems with, its your preference. I just don't get why people consider 14AWG to be "unsafe" and think that 12AWG makes a world of difference.
> 
> As a side note, I find connecting electronic dimmers with flimsy stranded pigtails a real pain to tie in when using 12AWG.



Because people like to know they are getting the most they can get. 20 amps at 120 volts can deliver 2400 watts, while at 15 amps only 1800.


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## stars13bars2 (Feb 13, 2005)

Why would you stop at 30amp for receptacle circuits when the 50 amp single pole breakers are the same price? You know the real question be considered here is whether it is ground up or ground down on the receptacles. :jester:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Because people like to know they are getting the most they can get. 20 amps at 120 volts can deliver 2400 watts, while at 15 amps only 1800.


And 30 amps can deliver 3600 watts and so on and so fourth....how does that impact safety?:blink:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

stars13bars2 said:


> ... You know the real question be considered here is whether it is ground up or ground down on the receptacles. :jester:


Uh-oh, what if they're sideways?:w00t::laughing:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

cleanhoods said:


> .................And on the RV plug with a 20amp recept. is no different then an factory adaptor from a RV rept. to a standard recept. still running on the 30 amp breaker.


Let us know who provides a listing for the adapter. :whistling


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

So, it is not up to code to have a 30A breaker, then have mutliple 15 or 20A receptacles down stream provided that each part of wiring is able to handle 30A?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> So, it is not up to code to have a 30A breaker, then have mutliple 15 or 20A receptacles down stream provided that each part of wiring is able to handle 30A?



Not legally.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

And on that note, this thread is closed to make room for the next rambling dissemination of information and misinformation.


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