# Hypothetical?



## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

Okay just for something to do I propose a hypothetical job. How would you do the job with the equipment you own or have at work. If you don't own it you would hire someone as a sub. You were hired to build a "durable driveway". This is a driveway from a paved town road up to an existing house that will be divided from other lots once the driveway is installed.

The job is a 12' wide driveway 2000' long that crosses a field up hill all the way. 

The field is known to have 15+" of topsoil.

Underneath there is a gravel clay mix.

Any excess topsoil needs to be moved 2500' either by going out onto a paved town road that is flat and into the adjoining property. Or up over the field and down a gravel drive to the same area to dump. Probably the same distance. 

Hopefully the drawing shows the slope of the field. There are neighbors on the lower slope side for 1/2 the distance of the driveway.

How would you spec the driveway? 
How would you do the work?

I'm trying to attach the drawing but not there yet.


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

I just realized that this is a 2000ft driveway, so my way has to be changed. I would cut out the topsoil and throw it off to the side with the excavator and level the shale with the excavator as the trucks are coming in. After the driveway is all done, I would come along and load the topsoil in the trucks and haul the topsoil to the dump site and clean up the sides as I go. This is how I do most of the long driveways. To modified the driveway, I would bring in a dozer. Usually on short driveways, I just use the excavator.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

denick said:


> Step #1
> Define load requirements
> Define durable
> 
> ...


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

Wouldn't it make sense to use a scraper on this job? Instead of using 2 machines for excavation just send in 1 guy with a scraper.



But i am not a excavator..


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Nick, is this for a driveway to a house or a road that would eventually be turned over to the township ?? If so, that would change the price dramatically. Around here, nobody brings in a roller to compact driveways because of cost. I just track in the shale with the excavator.


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

Rino,

This would be a driveway to a house but here we have only "expensive" houses for wealthy people so that should be kept in mind.


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

The spirit of this question is how would you do this job with the equipment you own or operate at work or hope to own. There is no wrong or right answer there is no perfect team of equipment.

In my years of work this type job has probably come up 10-15 times in various configurations and lengths. From what people have said about their areas I tried to describe something that could happen anywhere. From what people have listed as their equipment there are very few people who do not have at least 1 machine that could do this job.

I should have described it in the scenario that this driveway not only cuts across the field as shown in the diagram but it is a semi circle to get from the road to the house. there are probably 12 acres of field on the high side of the driveway. I've tried to add a plan.


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

I guess the real question is, will the extra time you save by renting equipment making up the additional $ you will spend on the rental equipment.


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Well, for something like that, I would charge about $1.50 sq/ft. This driveway is 24,000 sq/ft. So that is about $36,000.


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

denick said:


> The spirit of this question is how would you do this job with the equipment you own or operate at work or hope to own. There is no wrong or right answer there is no perfect team of equipment.
> 
> In my years of work this type job has probably come up 10-15 times in various configurations and lengths. From what people have said about their areas I tried to describe something that could happen anywhere. From what people have listed as their equipment there are very few people who do not have at least 1 machine that could do this job.
> 
> I should have described it in the scenario that this driveway not only cuts across the field as shown in the diagram but it is a semi circle to get from the road to the house. there are probably 12 acres of field on the high side of the driveway. I've tried to add a plan.


Nick,
What are the deep hole test results? Soil Profile? Where's the water table? Mottling depth? Sounds like you just have a job to give a bid on and you just want us to do your homework for you.:w00t: But some of this info would help me. Hypotheticaly speaking of course.:laughing:


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Looking at the pic, I would propose to shift the driveway to the left. It wouldn't be such a hard turn off of the paved road and it would shorten up the driveway a bit.


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

Look at the elevations. It much higher to the left rino.

It doesnt show it but you can't go to the left Hypo speaking.


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

denick said:


> The spirit of this question is how would you do this job with the equipment you own or operate at work or hope to own. There is no wrong or right answer there is no perfect team of equipment.
> 
> In my years of work this type job has probably come up 10-15 times in various configurations and lengths. From what people have said about their areas I tried to describe something that could happen anywhere. From what people have listed as their equipment there are very few people who do not have at least 1 machine that could do this job.
> 
> I should have described it in the scenario that this driveway not only cuts across the field as shown in the diagram but it is a semi circle to get from the road to the house. there are probably 12 acres of field on the high side of the driveway. I've tried to add a plan.


 Nick,
First thing you want to do is fire the Engineer that did this drawing.:laughing:


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

Gee I wish tgeb was here at least he might have something intelligent to add to this.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

As you may have noticed, I try to stay away from the hypothetical.:laughing: 

But if you insist,

I would tag team this with my rubber tracked skid steer and my backhoe to cut and load my single axle truck to haul the spoils on site. Maybe put a third machine on the stock pile, or leave it till later. 
I would base my price on the minimum cut and use a geotextile beneath the stone which would be hauled in as we progress. Poor soil conditions would be a change order.

All cut would be covered w/ stone by each days end as to minimize potential runoff to the neighboring property, or would have to silt fence the full length.

You have not stated what the finished product will be and that would dictate the depth of cut, therefore, I cannot price this one out.


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

Finally!


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Another thing that may be needed is a swale along the driveway on the right side going up. The land slopes that way and water runoff may be a problem.


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

rino, thats why I posted the second picture.

I had in mind when I posted this that we have Dirtguy / Dozerguy in Texas who could probably move the earth on this project in hours and we have bobbyg in Massachusetts who could be there weeks. And everybody inbetween. This job could be done by all with some thought. 

Anybody who wants to add their plan of attack I would like to hear it.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Go to the local Igleses. Hire 14, privide picks and shovels. In 3 days you'll be out, costs will be about $3K, charge what you want.

Sad but true.


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## sutton82 (Jun 9, 2006)

I have a similar driveway. It was built using a bobcat (don't know what model). They scraped away the topsoil and hauled it away. Then filled in with 6" of #2 gravel, then brought in 6" of base, then 4" of pea gravel. Been there 18 mos. Very smooth drains well.


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## hiaderph (Feb 1, 2007)

4" of pea gravel? wouldn't that be like driving on ball bearings? wouldn't normal traffic displace them?


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

hiaderph said:


> 4" of pea gravel? wouldn't that be like driving on ball bearings? wouldn't normal traffic displace them?


Yeah hi,
You're definately correct. Pea gravel might be ok on a level driveway, but absolutly nothing you would want on 1000' driveway with a slope to it at that. Snow removal in the winter would be ridiculous. At least you know what you'd be doing in the spring (redoing the driveway) :no:


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

jmic said:


> Yeah hi,
> You're definately correct. Pea gravel might be ok on a level driveway, but absolutly nothing you would want on 1000' driveway with a slope to it at that. Snow removal in the winter would be ridiculous. At least you know what you'd be doing in the spring (redoing the driveway) :no:


Yeah, I never use pea gravel for driveways. Even 2B I won't use, especially on hills.


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

sutton82, 
Glad to have your input. What part of the country are you from.?
What type of excavating do you do? Please continue to participate.

Most of us are used to pea gravel as a washed, clean, round, stone product that has nothing to bind it together and stay on a surface more than an 1" deep. So we don't see it staying well on a driveway. Your experience could be different.


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

First I just want to make clear that I would never be the cheapest bid on this job, by far. I would never even think of building a driveway leaving any topsoil under it. I'd recommend taking out the topsoil, installing Geo-tec stabilization fabric, covered with 6" of 3" minus and then topped with 3" of 1 1/4" process. I would also regrade the shoulders 8' wide from original grade to the new height of the driveway and have that figured in the exporting of the topsoil. Just a side note if I were doing a job like this I would also be running up the conduits for the utilities at the same time to minimize any distubance of the driveway once finished. I have also taken it upon myself to box out the driveway area to a width of 13' and if it was speced to be paved I'd have boxed it out to 14' to allow for curbs. 

Equipment to be used:
A) Kobelco 200SR
B) Gehl skidsteer
C) Rented tri-axle


Exported Topsoil to storage 750 cu.yds.




Total Cost: materials $13,105
labor $10,000
sub total $23,105.00
overhead 20% $4621.00 Total $27,726.00

Dam,thought it said 1000', but just saw it said 2000' so these numbers would be doubled.:laughing:


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## fhdesign (Jan 17, 2007)

Nick,
Tuff question with out knowing more detail, but assuming no bad conditions, I would probably use a large excavator. Keeping it simple... would install silt fencing, strip all top soil from driveway, cut and fill areas stock pilled on the low side. Rough grade and compact sub base with the same machine, probably would then use a layer of 1 1/4 process on the driveway area plus 1ft on bolth sides. With a completed sub base would then spread top soil over cut and fill areas, hauling excess to a stock pile area on site with a truck, after would use a small blade to spread 3/4 process. I would also excpect that most customers would probably want a decorative pea stone to finish.
Jon


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

jmic said:


> covered with 6" of 3" minus



Is that what you guys use for sub-base ?

We use shale which is around 8 - 12"


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

I wish we could get a productlike your shale rino. I alwys try to find out if there is a blasting job going on when I need base material.


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

Where i am in NJ people use shale for base material all the time. I know one guy that bought some land just for the shale on it. He must of taking thousands of yards out of that land by now.


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## sutton82 (Jun 9, 2006)

The pea gravel does fine on mine. It is a very level driveway. I missed that in the earlier posts. At first, it felt very squishy to drive on. But after about 2 months, it compacted very nicely. It does get displaced on the turns. On the straightaways it stays very well. I am actually very pleased with it. Having the soft base under it does help to hold it together some. I am in North Alabama. As far as excavation experience, I am on the money and "problem solving" side. Actual seat time I do not have. I am hoping to change that. I hope to start a dealership in the next two years. The company I am in with does mostly residential work, such as septic and subsurface utilities. You guys seem to put a lot more effort into your projects than we do. I would like to be able to do driveway work that would last 10 yrs. But people seem to be more willing to have grading and gravel done once (some people twice) a year rather than pay the big money up front. Lots of cheapskates around here.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

denick said:


> Finally!


Finally??!! WTF?! See *POST #3 !*


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

Pipe read # 14 and then #15, and WAH-LAH # 16:laughing: :laughing:


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

You're slay'n me JMIC. I must be on somebody's "ignore list".:notworthy


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

PipeGuy said:


> Finally??!! WTF?! See *POST #3 !*




Don't worry, Tom actually paid Nick to say that. :whistling


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

Pipe, please read posts 10, 13, 22, 25, 32 and I hope you will understand and forgive me.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

The Moderator of the Excavation & Site Work forum at ContractorTalk.com is requesting design/build Contract offers for construction of approximately 2000 linear feet of 12' wide driveway to serve an undetermined number of lots. OFFERS WILL BE DUE by electronic delivery to "The Hard Hat Zone" no later than 2:00 p.m. Eastern Time on Friday, March 2, 2007. 
A non-mandatory pre-bid meeting will be held on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 at 10:00 a.m., at the site. The Moderator has established a minimum goal of twenty percent (20%) of the total dollar amount of the proposed contract for Minority Business Enterprise ("MBE") utilization, applicable to all minority and non-minority businesses proposing to provide the requested services as the prime contractor. No goal has been established for participation of Women-owned businesses ("WBEs"), however, the Moderator strongly encourages and affirmatively promotes the use of WBEs in all ContractorTalk.com contracts. 
Responders shall also comply with all applicable requirements of Section 3 of the Housing and Urban Development Act of 1968, 12 U.S.C. Section 1701u. The IFO may be obtained on or after Monday, February 12, 2007, at the following location: 
Denick's yard

Questions regarding the IFB should be directed in writing to the Moderatorand must include the reference: Hypothetical?


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

denick said:


> Pipe, please read posts 10, 13, 22, 25, 32 and I hope you will understand and forgive me.


Hey Nick,
What are you trying to say? When are you going to post your game plan, huh?:blink: :laughing:


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

Oh boy, now I have offended one of the most knowledgeable, intellectual, articulate, members of this forum and jmic.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Not to worry Nick, I am not offended. 

I will admit though that I stole some of my ideas for the Hypothetical job from Pipeguy. 

I just re-worded it, same type thing got me in trouble at high school too.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

denick said:


> Pipe, please read posts 10, 13, 22, 25, 32 and I hope you will understand...


I'm just dense. I don't "get it".
It's all good though, no offense taken here.:drink:


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