# Large concrete patios job questions?



## jgray152 (Oct 4, 2009)

People like Tito take jobs away from the skilled craftsman that deserve the job and all its profits. 

All the slabs with active cracks will crack again either on or next to the crack. If you don't want this to happen, hire someone to remove the slabs and put a quality slab in. I'll come down and do the job just have to give me most of your profits 

BTW, I can keep a lot of the cracks in the slabs, I'll just make stone around them and you will never notice. Natural Control Joints in the Artificial Mortar Joints


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Tito may be brilliant...*


Just use a sand topping, cash the checks, and gtfo...*




* one or both of these statements may be intended as sarcasm


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## jgray152 (Oct 4, 2009)

TimelessQuality said:


> Tito may be brilliant...*
> 
> 
> Just use a sand topping, cash the checks, and gtfo...*
> ...


:thumbsup:


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

Titodbuilder said:


> Now see how easy this is.....Mike, where do you live and what would you charge per patio. Is the epoxy you like to use an good holding injection gel? Will it bond permanently. I have to guarantee the cracks will not reappear in the same place, new cracks are a different story. The LV Epoxy Injection Gel runs about $40 and will do about 40 linear feet at a 1/4". I think 6-8 units would take care of all cracks if chaser blade is not run too deep and the slabs aren't too thick.


I would call Dale Mitzer at the euclid chemical co. in cleveland ohio, he is the concrete restoratio products manager, bus 216-486-8118 cell 216-246-0924. He will tell you the best and most affordable products out in the market, tell him mike ruffo from local 404 cement masons referred you. Also he can apply all the products besides selling them! 

There is a new product by euclid chemical that is like ardex but with a mico fiber reinforcement in it. Also I would be concerned with the alge and high PH areas on the walls and or concrete. Find out about the prep and a primer before applying any ardex or high strenth mortar. To answer about the mm 80 it is one of the best epoxy on the market, be carful on the over spill of the epoxy in the cracks so you wont need to grind the over spill.www.metzgermcguire.com/*mm80*spec.htm

To address why the readers here are hostile at times is the way you asked your question about pricing. It is NOT ALLOWED to ask for price, it is allowed to ask for a labor time frame. But you should know the time if you submited a bid. It is good to be honest and humble in this forum. We are here to help and come up with good insite for everyone.

For myself I would guess (for the flat work, to apply the topping)with the correct help 4-7 slabs a day, 5 would be safe. That is with a finisher and a labor. But the major part of this job is the prep: shot blast, grinding of walls, saw cutting, presure washing, dry time, primer,etc. That will be the major cost in labor on the project. But with the budget you listed, you should make alot of money if you get quality help and run the job the correct way.

P.S HIRE UNION


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

CONCRETE MIKE said:


> I would call Dale Mitzer at the euclid chemical co. in cleveland ohio, he is the concrete restoratio products manager, bus 216-486-8118 cell 216-246-0924. He will tell you the best and most affordable products out in the market, tell him mike ruffo from local 404 cement masons referred you. Also he can apply all the products besides selling them!
> 
> There is a new product by euclid chemical that is like ardex but with a mico fiber reinforcement in it. Also I would be concerned with the alge and high PH areas on the walls and or concrete. Find out about the prep and a primer before applying any ardex or high strenth mortar. To answer about the mm 80 it is one of the best epoxy on the market, be carful on the over spill of the epoxy in the cracks so you wont need to grind the over spill.www.metzgermcguire.com/*mm80*spec.htm
> 
> ...


Just give this man the job already! 

I agree with the previous poster Michael Olding!

I for one am not going to throw stones at someone who takes a different approach to the same problem. He has been upfront about exactly what he is doing and why he is doing it and how he is doing it...so power to him. If he does his homework and hires the right Craftsman it should be a win, win for everybody involved. He lives in a huge market with opportunities that don't even exist where I live....and apparently he is taking advantage of what is before him so whats not to like.

If I lived in his area I would call him up right now and figure out a way that his company and my company could mutually benefit each other.


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

You might as well hire Mike since you don't know what you are doing anyway


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## Titodbuilder (Feb 6, 2009)

I started this exercise out admitting that I haven't a clue what I am doing when it comes to concrete. I do know how to get business, which requires a whole different set of skills. I was hoping for a symbiotic relationship on this board, but some seem to think I am after their skills that have taken years to perfect. That is not the case, I simply want to fit a job into a budget and sought a little insight. Thank you to those that have provided it -- much appreciate it.

I am also looking for other skilled workers in the area (Carpenters, drywall, painters). My problem is my regular subs get the hell out of dodge in the winter for a few months and so I am a little lean until the end of March. the other day I actually put on my stiff tool belt and worked and entire day -- I dont like to do that very often. 

Anyway, thanks again guys!!


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

MY problem with this approach, and I see it often, is that it muddies the water when there is a problem. It is kind of like subletting a sublet apartment. The lines of responsibility and liability are not clear. As an example, you Titod, will sub this to a concrete contractor, who may then sub it again for specific segments. The Owner has no knowledge of any of this and is very surprised when he begins receiving lien notices from companies that he has never heard of and signed no contracts with.

It does happen, and it happens frequently. I am dealing with 2 exactly like this now.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Titodbuilder said:


> I am also looking for other skilled workers in the area (Carpenters, drywall, painters). My problem is my regular subs get the hell out of dodge in the winter for a few months and so I am a little lean until the end of March. the other day I actually put on my stiff tool belt and worked and entire day -- I dont like to do that very often.
> 
> Anyway, thanks again guys!!


Quit hiring "regular subs" that don't actually "live" in the same country where you work/live, maybe I'm wrong but I'd imagine there are plenty of Good ole Boys in NVA that don't take off for the winter.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

And it is not just payment. For example one I am dealing with is a sub that subbed out work that had to have manufacturer warranties which required the contractor to be a certified installer. The sub's sub was not, so the manufacturer is not going to give a warranty without extensive and expensive testing of the as built construction. The chances of it actually meeting manufacturer's specifications are almost nil.

Who holds the liability in law?


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

Tscarborough said:


> And it is not just payment. For example one I am dealing with is a sub that subbed out work that had to have manufacturer warranties which required the contractor to be a certified installer. The sub's sub was not, so the manufacturer is not going to give a warranty without extensive and expensive testing of the as built construction. The chances of it actually meeting manufacturer's specifications are almost nil.
> 
> Who holds the liability in law?


 Ultimately the general is, hope you can work it out, good luck!


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Yes, the GC, and you mean you hope HE can work it out. We just had the unpleasant duty of telling him he was not going to get the warranty.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

> IMHO, your best bet would be to hire your concrete sub to do several of them and teach you how to do them properly. It will be money well spent and hopefully prevent 90 call backs for failed/botched repairs.


What he said.


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## Titodbuilder (Feb 6, 2009)

Tscar, we bonded and even class B contractors up to ($120K/contract) in my state are bonded through the state, so if there is a problem the one on the hook can be well identified and dealt with. I am not that big that the line of command is muddied to the point where I dont know who is responsible for what. Ultimately I am responsible and if I have to eat it and cover an issue I will. I have no BS project managers that know what they are doing and run a tight ship. I also have an attorney on retainer who has drafted tight contracts, which deal with the very issues being discussed. 

I admitting dont know concrete, but I do know business and so far I have had no major issues. What happens often is many folks in the biz are super or great Craftsmen and horrible business people. You need at least some training in business before you pick up a trowel or a hammer and start working for yourself. I never pretend I could pick up your tools and do as good a job as many of you do, so for you to do the same when it comes to business is a bit self-defeating IMHO. We all have our core competencies and should use them to our advantage. I dont like getting dirty and so I went through 7 years of post HS education and had corporate America pay me handsomely me to learn to develop business strategy for 18 years before I started pretending to do my own thing 6 years ago. There seems to be a snubbing attitude towards my skill set in this forum when quite the opposite should be the case. We could all help each other out and create a symbiotic and mutually benefiting situation. but anyway, I will get off my soap box and thank you guys that provided insightful information. 

As for hiring American born subs, good luck around here. This area is inclined towards a professionally homogeneous culture. Nearly 100% of dry cleaners are immigrant Korean owned, the majority of 7-11s are east Indian or middle eastern owned and serious construction is white owned and Latin worked or Latin owned (small contractors) and Without these workers my white collar run area would be in serious trouble. Accepting these facts and adapting to them is part of doing business here. I hire the best qualified people that are legal to work in the US and provide a good price points and pay them well, its simple business, not to mention that not doing so would be detrimental to my business and perhaps even illegal. I wish I had the option to bug off to a warm tropical area for 1-2 months of the year. They work very hard and do great work, so who am I to judge them for leaving when the weather does not allow them to work -- it has been in the low 20s around here lately. Do I want a good ol boy poured slab at 30 degrees with a possible 40-50% less strength or wait until I can get it done right by a qualified contractor regardless or national origin?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

This is the problem I have with your "skill-set":

"We *won the bid* to repair about 90 10'x11' concrete patios."

But you do not have a clue on how to actually price doing the work. This means your skills are to schmooze, bribe, or brother-in-law a deal, unless you simply took a WAG and low balled it.

In none of those scenarios can I appreciate the skill set. The bolded part indicates to me that you used the last of the skills and WAG'ed it.


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## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

Titodbuilder said:


> "I am a marketing guy not a "real" contractor, I have an MBA and devise ways to get jobs.....and get them. I bid them high and take people out drinking I figure out how the hell to do them later. "


I think the OP laid it all out by the 2nd post. 

It's kind of hard to read such things and _want_ to help. I also wonder if the question was asked before the bid was won if the answers might have been different. 

Willy


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Sorry if that sounded insulting, but here is where I come from. I have worked commercial construction, and my father owned a very successful firm for many years. Currently, I am a vendor, so I see all sides equally.

One of the worst things for our industry is unqualified companies bidding on open bid projects. It is not fair to them, the owner, or the other contractors, and the outcome is more often than not unsatisfactory to everyone except the vendors because they will get the money owed, as a rule.

You are a marketing genius, great, assemble a team of estimators BEFORE you bid a project.


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## Titodbuilder (Feb 6, 2009)

Tscar, 60% of my work comes a from a direct result of targeted marketing campaigns aimed at HOAs and condo associations. Why, because they have approved budgets, work throughout the year, and you are not dealing with emotionally attached homeowners directly. I have on-site maintenance contracts with some averaging 70% profit, yes profit after covering all costs including overhead. This for simple (low risk) handyman work on property for a guaranteed number of man hours per week. This approach pays very well, so if that means my skill set is bunk I am OK with it. 

I will not start suggest I have a notion why some feel the need to drop their pants just to get the job and then take shortcuts and do crap work to fit a budget. I will say that if I can only do 45 patios right that is how will get done and next year they approve more money to do the rest. Its that easy if you take the time to develop a sound business strategy that is not predicated on giving the lowest price. 

I have taken the time to develop relationships with property management companies, attorneys, and BODs. I am never the lowest bid (so I have been told), but I do get the work done and done right, or I could not survive. Like other projects where I dont have a lot of experience in, this job will get done and get done right, perhaps not by you, but done nonetheless. 

For all ventures I do an analysis, posting here was a small part of that exercise. Beyond a SWOT analysis I try to get anecdotal information from folks that actually do the work on a daily basis. Not having a "know it all attitude" has served me well so far. I have not encountered the push-back on this site for something as simple as fixing concrete slabs. You would think we are competing for the same work. What exactly is the purpose of this forum if not to share ideas and help each other?

I am far from a marketing genius. I just wanted to spend more time with my daughter and so I quit the corporate rat race and figured out another way to make a living. I have never been sued and have only lost money on small insignificant projects. I rely on return business from established relationships. The people awarding me contracts know one thing, past work has been done right and I stand 100% behind my work regardless of what is is. 

You will be abhorred to know that this is only part of what I do. I am also a real estate broker and make as much as I do on construction. I have access to some 20k homeowners and it simply makes sense. I am just trying to survive like the rest of us man, and I asked a simply concrete job question. Why the animosity?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

It sounds like you are going about it in the right way, you just need to tweak the actual method you use to arrive at estimates. Most contractors will be happy to give you a bid on specific parts of a job before it bids, but not so much after.

It is called "bid shopping" when you win a bid then start looking for quotes. Most contractors will think you already got a bid, but are just trying to under cut the contractor you bid the job with, and good contractors do not appreciate it.


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## Titodbuilder (Feb 6, 2009)

The funny thing is that I actually help people tell me how much to charge me, AFTER they give me a low bid I know they will not make a fair a fair profit. I seriously question low bids. If I like the person and they do good work I call him in and ask them to go over the bid with me. I explain the importance of covering costs and overhead and calculating profit. I also tell them if they are not making more they should walk away from work as it can quickly become a hobby and a way not to have to listen to the wife all day. I do this because I respect their skills and know they will respect the fact I did not screw them when I could have, which establishes and nurtures a good working relationship in the future.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

You should do well.


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## Titodbuilder (Feb 6, 2009)

Sorry if my approach insulted you guys, it was not my intent. Next time I will take the time to read some posts so I can ask in the proper manner. For now I am off to watch football.....enjoy and thank you.


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