# Hardwood over Hardwood?



## bjg5240 (May 8, 2006)

Super sense of smell I guess :blink: 

Instead of a moisture meter, could you leave the product on site for a week to adjust?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

bjg5240 said:


> Super sense of smell I guess :blink:
> 
> Instead of a moisture meter, could you leave the product on site for a week to adjust?


Acclimation is *not about time*. That is a huge falsehood that is thrown around way to liberally. It is about reaching an equilibrium of moisture content between the product and the subfloor/environment. That could take three days or three weeks....a moisture meter is the only way to accurately gauge that phenomenon .


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## bjg5240 (May 8, 2006)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Rent, borrow, beg, buy, or steal (just kidding) a moisture meter. Acclimate your product until the moisture content readings of your subfloor and product are within 4% of each other.


The meter is a little pricey for probably just one job. Guess I'll be renting or stealing one! :whistling


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## bjg5240 (May 8, 2006)

I have yet another question. I would like to do random width flooring. Maybe 2" 3" & 4" planks. I know the Fulton Strip is the 2.25", and Fulton Plank is 3.25", but do you know of a wider style available also? Have you done this for any jobs, or am I treading into dangerous territory?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

bjg5240 said:


> I have yet another question. I would like to do random width flooring. Maybe 2" 3" & 4" planks. I know the Fulton Strip is the 2.25", and Fulton Plank is 3.25", but do you know of a wider style available also? Have you done this for any jobs, or am I treading into dangerous territory?


No you are fine with that thinking, I have done it quite a few times. I will say with pre-finished you definitely want to stay in the same product line though. Find a line that has the width(s) you are looking for. The milling between lines can be different and would cause problems with getting the tongue and groove to line up and still have the surface stay on the same plane. Test fit samples first to make sure the milling is the same. Not saying you can't mix say a Fulton Strip with a Liberty Plains Plank, but definitely do your homework before ordering


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## lawndart (Dec 3, 2006)

PrecisionFloors said:


> No you are fine with that thinking, I have done it quite a few times. I will say with pre-finished you definitely want to stay in the same product line though. Find a line that has the width(s) you are looking for. The milling between lines can be different and would cause problems with getting the tongue and groove to line up and still have the surface stay on the same plane. Test fit samples first to make sure the milling is the same. Not saying you can't mix say a Fulton Strip with a Liberty Plains Plank, but definitely do your homework before ordering


From a hardwood flooring guy, I must say all of your advice in this thread is excellent. Great work Precision :thumbsup:


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## bjg5240 (May 8, 2006)

Thanks for the afirmation Lawndart, I feel better. Could either of you recommend a Jam Saw? I was going to pull all the baseboard & door casings, but I'm going to need a saw to cut out the bottom of the door frames. I saw a Crane #812 for about $290, but did'nt know if there was a better alternative. Also, I'm still stuck on my decision between square edge and micro, can someone give me a push in a direction.

PrecisionFloors, with your advice to lay down a 2x4 in the middle of the room I have a question. How do you nail in the first row since the gun won't fit (kinda like the last few courses). I was just wondering if you toe nailed these with a finish gun, or glued them. I can't imagine nailing through the top. Again, you guys (especially PrecisionFloors) have been a great asset. I'm venturing into unknown territory, so I know I'm asking alot of questions. Thanks for all the advise.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

lawndart said:


> From a hardwood flooring guy, I must say all of your advice in this thread is excellent. Great work Precision :thumbsup:


Thanks dart...I take that as a huge compliment considering the quality work you put out. 



bjg5240 said:


> Thanks for the afirmation Lawndart, I feel better. Could either of you recommend a Jam Saw? I was going to pull all the baseboard & door casings, but I'm going to need a saw to cut out the bottom of the door frames. I saw a Crane #812 for about $290, but did'nt know if there was a better alternative. Also, I'm still stuck on my decision between square edge and micro, can someone give me a push in a direction.
> 
> PrecisionFloors, with your advice to lay down a 2x4 in the middle of the room I have a question. How do you nail in the first row since the gun won't fit (kinda like the last few courses). I was just wondering if you toe nailed these with a finish gun, or glued them. I can't imagine nailing through the top. Again, you guys (especially PrecisionFloors) have been a great asset. I'm venturing into unknown territory, so I know I'm asking alot of questions. Thanks for all the advise.


If it gives you any idea, I have the Crain 812. It is the best grinder bodied saw on the market. If you do alot of other types of work and don't mind paying for quality tools I would highly suggest a Fein Multi-Master or Supercut. They will do ALOT more than cut jambs but they do that very well also. Fair warning they are expensive. Absolutely worth every penny and then some though, I kid you not. Once you have one you will wonder how you ever did without it.

With the 2x4 thing you just have to pull that first row back out (its not nailed so it comes right up) after you pry the 2x4 up and you run the opposite way. Glue (regular old wood glue) and blind nail the slip tongue into the first row that was installed before. Turn the row around that you already have cut and start bangin em in. Naildown is very forgiving with just a little bit of experience and the right tools. I can put in borders, diagonal fields, direction changes, etc. with just a little pre-planning and a router. Its alot of fun once you loose the fear of screwing it up :thumbsup: You are asking all of the right questions so I know you are anal and picky....just like me :laughing: You'll do fine.


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## bjg5240 (May 8, 2006)

My first problem already! I was doing a preliminary measure of the house we are buying and there is a hump in the kitchen! I checked the basement & it appears that the house has settled but the 2x8 sitting on top of a block wall has held its ground.

I guess I'm gonna have to hold off on the floor order until we make settlement (15th of May) and can pull up the subfloor & see if I can plain down the joist. Aghhhhh. It's always something isnt it!

I keep ya posted

In the meantime I'm gonna see about getting a good jam saw.


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## bjg5240 (May 8, 2006)

Hey Precisionfloors,

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but got a quick question. When you said that installing square edged flooring was more difficult than micro edged, what did you mean?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

bjg5240 said:


> Hey Precisionfloors,
> 
> I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but got a quick question. When you said that installing square edged flooring was more difficult than micro edged, what did you mean?


Its not that it is easier to install. It is easier to to make it look good. All hardwood flooring is going to have some milling tolerances. Not each and every board wil be cut exactly, absolutely perfectly square or the same size (we're talking thousandths of an inch here). What that means is, when it comes time for install you will find end joints that are not perfect....out of square, overwood, tongue/groove depth not perfect. etc., etc.
Square edge joints by their nature make this stand out alot more than beveled or even micro-beveled edges do. You will typically have less culling and an overall faster install with a beveled edge. The milling just always seems better and what isn't perfect doesn't draw the eye nearly as much. This is all in MY experiences with pre-finished hardwood. A site finished product won't matter either way as it will be puttied and sanded anyway.


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## bjg5240 (May 8, 2006)

Thanks once again! Now I'm leaning more towards the micro for my first time experience:thumbsup:


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## Russ (May 7, 2007)

*My Thoughts*

I think I just lost my whole message trying to preview it 

Well, I'll just have to paraphrase. Nice choice in getting the micro bevels. Although there are some great prefinished companies, I have not seen one that can pull off the sitefinished look. Without the bevels you will get sharp edges at the joins due to milling imperfections. As for getting a jam saw, I wouldn't buy one at all. Especially if you are only going to be doing your house. Not only are the saws expencive, the replacement blades are as well. I've been doing this for five years now and prefer a good pullsaw. Just put an off-cut beside the door jam and cut it to the same level. it's done in about a minute. Moving on. Don't buy a moisture meter, just wait a week and it will be fine. Just kidding guys:laughing: don't do that. There are too many cheap meters that I wouldn't trust. I use a mini LIGNO DX/C. It's reliable and has settings for different species of wood and for different kinds of subfloors. I wait for the moisture content to go below one percent difference between the wood and subfloor. To speed up the process just pull all of the wood out of the packs and lay it all out on the floor and put some fans on it. This really saves time in the process. Find a friend in the business and borow his/her meter. For starting the floor in the middle, I use a long piece of extruded aluminium and screw it into the floor. It's rock solid and I can nail the first row. I'm not suggesting that you need to buy a huge piece of aluminium. I'm just saying that it does not really matter what you use to start a row, as long as it is straight and won't move when you use you stapler. Oh, and one more thing. Make sure to check with your prefinished company about warranty. A lot of companies wont warranty a floor that has been installed with a staple gun because they tend to split the tonges more that a cleat gun. Thats all. Good luck.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

I'd like to know what manufacturers specifically, will not warranty a stapled installation Russ. 

Not buying a jamb saw because they are expensive??? If a $250 tool is expensive to you, you ain't chargin enough my friend. What do you do when you have a whole house to do with 20+ jambs to cut? By the time you get done under-cutting I will have wood on the floor and all of my moldings stained.


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## bjg5240 (May 8, 2006)

I have to agree with both of you on the jam saw. I guess if I was only doing one hardwood install, I would probably just handsaw it. But like Precision said, whats $250 when you just spent $6000.00 in materials. Im gonna buy the jam saw, mostly because I do alot of ceramic tile work and it will make the jobs much easier. I will get plenty of use from my $250.

We went to Lowes tonight to design our kitchen. I'm glad I held off on the order, because the Butterscotch color that we loved so much clashes badly with the Maple cabinets that we choose. It also gave us the opportunity to compare edging. We liked a color called Coffee, but it was from Mowhawk flooring (3/4" naildown). I know they make carpet, but I'm a little sceptical about them as a hardwood source. Anyone got info on them? The whole cabinet order is gonna blow my budget out of the water ($11000.00) just for cabinets. One other sore spot i've seen on here is weather to install the cabinets or the floor first.

The kitchen designer said with 100% certainty is that you install the floor first for a more stable cabinet base & for a better finished look. Im not sold on that completely, but I know everyone her has a mixed opinion.:no: It would however be so much easier if I could install the floor while I wait for the cabinets to come in!


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## Russ (May 7, 2007)

*Warranty*

Mohawk is quality stuff. It is milled nicely,installs great and the bevels aren't too big. As for the warranty it says right on the Mohawk site

"
*Improper Installation* -- Improper installations, done in a way that is contrary to the specifications, can cause problems with a Mohawk floor. Manufacturer will not replace a floor with defects caused by improper installation."

And in those specifications it says to use power cleats. So they do not have to warranty any floor that has been installed with staples. This is the reason I switched. Staple guns are cheaper and so are the staples but cleats are the proper fastener. I don't represent a cleat nail company or anything, I just had to make the switch because of warranty issues. Also I'm pretty quick with a good pull saw but thats is a stupid thing to argue about.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Do whats comfortable for you Russ. I have been at this for a long time now and this is the first instance that I have ever heard of a manufacturer not warranting a stapled install....if that is infact the case, it is only there as a potential way for them to kill a warranty. I will talk to my Mohawk rep about it when I get a chance. 

You are pushing cleats as if they are definitively better than staples. They are not. That is your preference and opinion. I can respect that as there are alot of methods that I prefer over others and its just the way I do it. That doesn't mean its the only way. 

Have you ever taken up a 3/4 solid with 2" staples that has been installed right? I promise you that you would rather have pulled up the one with cleats. Staples hold better, it is a proven fact to those of us that have been in this game a while and have used both. The argument against staples for splitting tongues is true to some extent.....if the gun is setup right it happens very little unless it is a very hard exotic like brazillion cherry. On those I would prefer cleats myself, but only in those cases. 

Staple guns are not cheaper, as a matter of fact my Bostich MIIIs are more money (new) than just about any cleat nailer you can name. What you are seeing is all of the cheap knock off staplers that have flooded the market in the last few years. Why is that do you think?


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## bjg5240 (May 8, 2006)

Hey Precision,

What is your opinon on Mowhawk Hardwood versus Bruce? Also, do you think the 3/4" naildown is better than some of the thinner stuff, or is it just the amount of times that it can be refinished? Thanks!


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## Russ (May 7, 2007)

I will not argue that staples hold stronger than cleats because i have ripped both out before. Staples are definetly more solid but that's not the issue. It's the fact that staples split tounges more often than cleats do. 

Lauzon said this about yellow birch

NOTE: TO MINIMIZE THE RISK FACTOR OF FRACTURES AND OTHER STRUCTURAL FAILURES TO YELLOW BIRCH CAUSED BY THE
FLUCTUATIONS OF ITS MOISTURE CONTENT, WE RECOMMEND THE USE OF CLEATS WHEN INSTALLING THIS SPECIES OF
FLOORING.

And as for the cleat guns I was referring to the price diference between the Bostitch MIIIfs and MIIIfn.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

bjg5240 said:


> Hey Precision,
> 
> What is your opinon on Mowhawk Hardwood versus Bruce? Also, do you think the 3/4" naildown is better than some of the thinner stuff, or is it just the amount of times that it can be refinished? Thanks!


I would go with Mohawk over Bruce. 3/4 gives you alot more options down the road. The finishes are pretty much the same but you will get more re-finishes out of a thicker solid product than you will an engineered. The engineereds are more stable however and do have their place in the market. In your situation you couldn't go wrong with a 3/4 solid pre-finished Mohawk.

Now pay me to do it and I'll come up there and put some borders and a medallion in it for ya....and some stairs....maybe run your dining room on a diagonal :whistling :laughing:

Seriously, if you want to do any of that stuff I can walk you through it over the phone.


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