# Why Is There a Shortage of Tradesmen?



## Admin

What do you feel is the biggest reason for the shortage of qualified tradesmen?

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"It's a critical threat to my industry and the problem is here right now, today," said Doug Dohn of Dohn Construction, one of Fort Collins' largest contractors. "There's a huge shortage of tradesmen." http://www.coloradoan.com/story/mon...tage-threatens-construction-business/8795373/

Click to expand...

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## greg24k

Cricket said:


> View attachment 119546
> 
> 
> What do you feel is the biggest reason for the shortage of qualified tradesmen?


To many hacks and unlicensed trades around, so old timers and legitimate guys say "screw" it @ trying to compete and waste time with all that, so they retire or venture off doing other things.


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## mstrat

Yep...Greg said it best.


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## Agility

Working in the trades is hard and dirty and you won't get famous. It's just not worth it for most people, even if it means getting a lower paying job or having no job at all. 

I love Mike Rowe on this topic: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/


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## Admin

I have to wonder if somewhere along the way we stopped teaching our children how to work. There used to be vocations taught in high school that may have increased interest in the trades. With budget cuts, often that has been eliminated.


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## GTX63

Cricket said:


> I have to wonder if somewhere along the way we stopped teaching our children how to work. There used to be vocations taught in high school that may have increased interest in the trades. With budget cuts, often that has been eliminated.


Lack of funding/cuts in rural schools has all but eliminated vocational training in many areas. There are masses of lightly educated and undermotivated people who just don't want to dedicate themselves to one specific trade, so they bounce around looking for the greatest payday with the least effort. Yes, hacks would be one term used to discribe them.
How they became that way is, in my eyes, mostly social and a little political.


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## HardWorks

Kids are freacking lazy brought on by parents not being parents. Hard work, video games, TV shows always showing office type workers, us saying how hard it is, the stigma that construction work is a step up from flipping burgers or pumping gas, the list is long. Also add government cheese. I had a choice (coming from a family of tradesman) go to college, the military or eat. I liked to eat.


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## Mrmac204

I am currently working on a large home in a nearby city, and the GC has brought a 76 yr old retired guy out to spin columns. Steel columns, and he wraps them with mesh then concrete with a special jig, then two finish coats of ? I will say white concrete. It looks fantastic when he's done each one.

There is just no one around that doe's that type of work - who is available.

Our drywall mud guys? treated like kings. We had to clear the main floor of the house, no dust, no workers etc. Apparently if we do work in the area where they are working they will walk off the job.

We can't hire enough finishing carpenters, the last two hired didn't have a clue. ((pay is $32/hr) one didn't know what a cope was! :bangin:

GC has just started another huge house out near the university (University of British Columbia, west side of Vancouver) not sure where he's gonna get the crew as we are stretched pretty thin now.


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## CJKarl

Millennials are lazy.


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## Youngin'

As a young person the one thing I noticed was the push towards university in high school. The trades were treated with a certain amount of disdain by teachers and councilors and that rubbed off on a lot of kids. Get a university education or you're nobody. 

I also think kids (Ha kids...I'm only 23) don't want to or don't have the patience to learn the skills that would make them a craftsman. 

They are really pushing (in Alberta at least) to get more people into the trades now. It's a bit late though, the supply is so far outpaced by the demand its going to take years to balance it out.


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## RangoWA

There is no funding problem with schools. There is a priority problem. The bulk of the cash goes into top tier pockets and dribbles down to the kids. The electronic age has made most younger people more interested in phones than hammers so I suspect it's tied in somewhat with the illegal immigration issue. They can't speak English but at least they aren't allergic to work.


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## donerightwyo

Here you have to be a pretty dumb, screw up to not be able to attend an instate college. 

With the coal,oil, and gas paying top dollar with bennies for no experience, only the trash have to work in the trades And it's the bottom of the trash that have to work with wood, drywall, concrete or roofs. Terribly sad really. 

That and kids are just F'n lazy.:whistling


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## Red Adobe

I don't think they are as TOUGH or thick skinned as the older generations. 25 years ago when i broke in the older guys were gruff and yelled alot, I just got used to it and yelled back. I don't uell at people much, but I will give a look and shake my head for some tho thats too much and Im the A hole.


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## Elyrain

This used to bother me alot but now I'm just waiting for the day to charge someone $2000 to plane the bottom of their door so it closes correctly. 

I really can't wait for the backlash of all these DIY reno's in 20+ years. It's gonna be fun!


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## aaron_a

I'm pretty young myself (27). Going through high school I felt like there was a big push to get kids into college, regardless if they had a plan or not, the vocational schools were treated as an option for kids who couldn't cut it in the academic part of school. I feel like there was an attitude of joining a trade as almost a punishment or a last ditch effort to do something.


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## Tylerwalker32

aaron_a said:


> I'm pretty young myself (27). Going through high school I felt like there was a big push to get kids into college, regardless if they had a plan or not, the vocational schools were treated as an option for kids who couldn't cut it in the academic part of school. I feel like there was an attitude of joining a trade as almost a punishment or a last ditch effort to do something.


 I agree with this 100%. I'm 21 and that's exactly the mentality of people today.


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## MSLiechty

don't forget most schools like to tell students they must go to college and the trades are are drop outs, most schools has got ride of shop classes "you don't want to dig ditches all your life" Funny part is I earn more than lots of my "college educated" friends.

ML


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## RangoWA

The push for college is another good reason. Lots of money in higher education. Train kids to believe it's the only way to prosperity, charge them a fortune and get the government to bankroll the loans. It's a pretty slick system. I have to admire it in a way.


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## NCMCarpentry

It doesn't pay well enough....


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## Kaiser

Supply and demand. 3 years ago there was no reason for anyone to get into the trades.


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## TimNJ

I think the TV shows are part of the problem.
On the one hand shows like This Old House help to advance the cause of the residential construction industry.

On the other hand, the vast majority of the DIY and HGTV shows promote that any a**wipe can use a nail gun and a power miterbox.
With that kind of publicity it is no wonder we as contractors are always derided on our pricing and skills by homeowners who "would do it themselves" but "I don't have the time".

I mean, how about a TV channel devoted to DIY medical procedures, or DIY financial investing. I mean something along the lines of a show..."We gave John Doe $50,000. Let's see how much money he can make investing it"

That is practically what HGTV does on their shows.


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## tedanderson

TimNJ said:


> I mean, how about a TV channel devoted to DIY medical procedures, or DIY financial investing.


Have you been on YouTube lately? :whistling


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## Stephen H

Jaws,
when I was in asphalt shingles---- I couldn't do all of the things for my employees that I can do now.

I went into slate and Ceramic roof tiles in large part so that I COULD do exactly what we are doing for the employees now.

also--- when I was in asphalt shingles it was a mixture of self performing most of the work and subbing out all or portions of bigger projects.--- sometimes I had employees---sometimes not.

but there is no reason any of us have to continue to do things the way we always have.

there has been a book out on the market for about 10 years now that I keep meaning to read.
"The Companies We Keep" by John Abrams
you can google his design/build firm, South Mountain Co.

the way things are-----are NOT the way they always have to be.

Please keep in mind--- I am just a dumb roofer----- but If I can get it done, YOU can certainly get it done.
Stephen

BTW---- you might just find that you make MORE money by doing the right thing. Over a 5-6 year period I eliminated what had been 95% of our work and EXPANDED what had previously been maybe 5% of our work into 100% of our work. It looks like 2014 will be our best year ever-----even better than the hail storm years 2008-2009.

so--- If I can do it---YOU can do it----all it really took was committing to the process.
stephen


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## TNTRenovate

Stephen H said:


> Jaws,
> when I was in asphalt shingles---- I couldn't do all of the things for my employees that I can do now.


Couldn't or didn't know how?


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## Kowboy

Tinstaafl said:


> Verbal dancing. Methinks you are in the same position as a childless person telling a parent howto raise his children. While your arguments have merit, they need to be backed up with experience. :thumbsup:


Tinstaafl:

I couldn't be more grateful than I am for your post.

My wife and I are childless by choice. When my young niece was misbehaving and I mentioned it to her parents, my sister-in-law told me that people with no kids have no business telling others how to raise theirs. This is another perfect example of ad hominem circumstantial logical fallacy.

I do not need to be a parent to know that your rude, impatient, and obnoxious child is a brat. It is an easy diagnosis made by anyone with a brain, childless or not.

Thanks for proving my point.


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## Kowboy

BamBamm5144 said:


> After reading this and smashing my head against the wall, I came to the conclusion that Jaws question can't be answered by you due to you not owning your own company.
> 
> That means your speaking from the employee side of things which is entirely different. No matter how many big words you use, it doesn't change the fact that you aren't able to answer his simple question.


BamBamm:

I did answer Jaws' question. You just didn't like the answer I gave. 

To set the record straight, I do own my own company (licensed in 2 states and insured), but answering whether or not I have employees and how much I pay them contributes nothing and encourages more logically irrelevant questioning.

"…the employee side of things…" is yet another example of ad hominem circumstantial. It doesn't matter if an illegal alien thatch roofer gets on this board and makes a case for supply and demand and Millennials, you must answer his arguments. His immigration status is as irrelevant as how much he pays his crew.


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## Jaws

Kowboy said:


> BamBamm:
> 
> I did answer Jaws' question. You just didn't like the answer I gave.
> 
> To set the record straight, I do own my own company (licensed in 2 states and insured), but answering whether or not I have employees and how much I pay them contributes nothing and encourages more logically irrelevant questioning.
> 
> "…the employee side of things…" is yet another example of ad hominem circumstantial. It doesn't matter if an illegal alien thatch roofer gets on this board and makes a case for supply and demand and Millennials, you must answer his arguments. His immigration status is as irrelevant as how much he pays his crew.


I dont have to answer to anyone, especially not a hack running illegals. :thumbsup:

Your examples are ridiculous. No intelligent and remotely educated person will take the uneducated opinion of someone ignorant on the subject. For example, I am doing a remodel for a retired general. I wonder if I went into his study and gave him my opinion on how the Iraq , Gulf or Vietnam wars should of been run and my plan for exterminating Isis what he would say. Probably get out of my office. Because I am not a soilder or a general, he is and has a frame of reference in any discussion on war or battles. 


If the general offered advice for how I should handle his remodel, I would say thank you and we are looking at every possibility. Then I would go about my business. Because he has no frame of reference on renovations. Get it? 

Now I was dead serious when I asked for your plan, but you dont have one. So your just whining as far as I am concerned. I am looking for solutions, and I will find them, I always do. You want something changed using big words and attacking an industry is not going to get you there. You want to join in the discussion on how to fix the problem, Im all ears. Otherwise your just whining, imo.


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## Jaws

Stephen H said:


> Jaws,
> when I was in asphalt shingles---- I couldn't do all of the things for my employees that I can do now.
> 
> I went into slate and Ceramic roof tiles in large part so that I COULD do exactly what we are doing for the employees now.
> 
> also--- when I was in asphalt shingles it was a mixture of self performing most of the work and subbing out all or portions of bigger projects.--- sometimes I had employees---sometimes not.
> 
> but there is no reason any of us have to continue to do things the way we always have.
> 
> there has been a book out on the market for about 10 years now that I keep meaning to read.
> "The Companies We Keep" by John Abrams
> you can google his design/build firm, South Mountain Co.
> 
> the way things are-----are NOT the way they always have to be.
> 
> Please keep in mind--- I am just a dumb roofer----- but If I can get it done, YOU can certainly get it done.
> Stephen
> 
> BTW---- you might just find that you make MORE money by doing the right thing. Over a 5-6 year period I eliminated what had been 95% of our work and EXPANDED what had previously been maybe 5% of our work into 100% of our work. It looks like 2014 will be our best year ever-----even better than the hail storm years 2008-2009.
> 
> so--- If I can do it---YOU can do it----all it really took was committing to the process.
> stephen


I am very familiar with the South Mountain Company in Marthas Vineyard. I read their story on their website a long time ago, always intrigued me. 

So do you have a IRA or 401k system you contribute to for the employees? Or you give them profits sharing and they invest for themselves? Same for HC?


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## Kowboy

Jaws said:


> I dont have to answer to anyone, especially not a hack running illegals. :thumbsup:
> 
> Your examples are ridiculous. No intelligent and remotely educated person will take the uneducated opinion of someone ignorant on the subject. For example, I am doing a remodel for a retired general. I wonder if I went into his study and gave him my opinion on how the Iraq , Gulf or Vietnam wars should of been run and my plan for exterminating Isis what he would say. Probably get out of my office. Because I am not a soilder or a general, he is and has a frame of reference in any discussion on war or battles.
> 
> 
> If the general offered advice for how I should handle his remodel, I would say thank you and we are looking at every possibility. Then I would go about my business. Because he has no frame of reference on renovations. Get it?
> 
> Now I was dead serious when I asked for your plan, but you dont have one. So your just whining as far as I am concerned. I am looking for solutions, and I will find them, I always do. You want something changed using big words and attacking an industry is not going to get you there. You want to join in the discussion on how to fix the problem, Im all ears. Otherwise your just whining, imo.


John:

Let's go with your "reasoning". Let's say that the Constitution were changed so that only congress persons who had actually been active in combat could vote on whether or not to take the country to war. 

So a highly respected and intelligent reservist in Congress would be ineligible to vote, but according to your way of thinking that's just fine. No women legislators have seen combat, so that leaves them out too. 

And what about legislators who had several tours and saw lots of action? Does that give them more votes than a veteran who was in theatre but behind the scenes? Where do we draw the line when circumstances become the criteria?

If your General customer shows you a code book that says joist hangers are required on his addition, his lack of construction experience is irrelevant. You would have to explain to him and the building inspector that toe nailing, the way you've always done it, was actually stronger and substantiate your claim.


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## huggytree

if there truly is a shortage then the prices should rise as businesses try to steal good employees away from others.......supply and demand

i dont see the shortage here.....the economy has been blah for 7-8 years....every year the same...no real increase.....home builders/remodelers are still going under.....roughly 50% of gc's have gone under since ive been in business....with any new ones being low end/handyman types

if there is a shortage then all we need to do is raise prices and raise wages...problem solved....get a tradesman to make the same as a doctor and you'll have as many guys as you need begging for work....problem is GC's in this economy are all about doing it cheaper....so there may be the reason right there....why kill yourself for $15-20 an hour...

im 43 and my back is already shot...i have to think about everything i do now to protect my back and get another 12 years out of it.......i teach my kids to go to college and not get into the trades........i make a good wage since im the owner, but some days i wonder if i should have sacraficed my body to make $$...no matter how much it is


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## TxElectrician

kowboy- what are you adding to this conversation that is useful?


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## Stephen H

TNTSERVICES said:


> Couldn't or didn't know how?


 good question.

I would say it was a 90/10 split between couldn't and didn't know how

although "didn't know how" isn't really accurate because I wasn't directly pursuing it seriously.

I would say primarily couldn't--- because at the time I wasn't really interested in having employees at all. I did what I did and preferred to work alone.

If I needed a crew I would put one together---and then later we would go our seperate ways. As a practical matter--- it wasn't real feasible to put together the paperwork for various accounts for employees that are only going to be with you for 4 months or so.

I would like to think that I always paid well and treated people fairly- but I wasn't interested in having long term employees. At the time I considered the roofing business to be a pretty bad one to be in as a career employee- so I encouraged them all to either start their own gig--- or move into a different line of work.

Once I moved into doing more specialized work ,needing employees with specialized skills which were going to take YEARS to develope( and selling a larger volume than I could EVER self perform)---- attracting and keeping higher caliber individuals made me re-think things.

Once I was seriously interested in it----"didn't know how" wasn't really a factor----some basic solutions were readily apparent.
stephen


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## Stephen H

Jaws said:


> I am very familiar with the South Mountain Company in Marthas Vineyard. I read their story on their website a long time ago, always intrigued me.
> 
> So do you have a IRA or 401k system you contribute to for the employees? Or you give them profits sharing and they invest for themselves? Same for HC?


 john---- I am afraid what I currently do isn't going to be relevant for most people here----- that's why I would like to hear how other companies accomplish it. I need to make additional changes. We had non family employees in 2008,2009,2010,2011,2012

2013 and 2014 are a statistical anomaly with both employees being family members and I can handle profit sharing in a way that I couldn't with non family members. In 2011,2012,2013 profit sharing was done in a significant but informal manner.

for 2015 we will have our 3rd employee(4th counting me) ---and this will be a return to non family employees---- So I am going to need a much more rigorous,formal system. currently with health care its a bit of a hodge podge because I pay for one man, his wife and his impending daughter on one account--- and I pay for the other man on another Account.

Stephen


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## Tinstaafl

Kowboy said:


> I do not need to be a parent to know that your rude, impatient, and obnoxious child is a brat. It is an easy diagnosis made by anyone with a brain, childless or not.
> 
> Thanks for proving my point.


Nothing has been proven. While that statement is true, it is completely non-responsive to my statement:



> Methinks you are in the same position as a childless person *telling a parent howto raise his children.*


It's generally easy to spot when something is wrong, but providing solutions is best done by those who have been there, done that--successfully. Since you decline to provide evidence that you fit into that category, the logical conclusion is that you are theorizing rather than drawing from experience. :thumbsup:


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## PPRI

What are we talking about again?


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## TimNJ

TxElectrician said:


> kowboy- what are you adding to this conversation that is useful?


An alternative viewpoint.


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## Kowboy

TxElectrician said:


> kowboy- what are you adding to this conversation that is useful?


TxElectrician:

Good question.

When I participate on these forums I have few preconditions, but a big one is that my interlocutors must be logical. I'm not interested in conversations that don't make sense.

When we are discussing roof trusses, you can't say "I think my wife is cheating on me." Your wife may be cheating on you, but that doesn't have anything to do with roof trusses.

The problem arises when folks mistakenly think their comments and/or questions are relevant to the discussion when in fact they aren't. Asking about my circumstances initially sounds like a sensible rebuttal, but it's not upon examination. When someone makes an argument, you must address that argument, not the circumstances of the proponent.

To answer your question, I bring logic to the discussion. Show me I'm wrong if you can, please.


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## PPRI

I thought we had a good discussion going on. I thought maybe we could come up with some ideas that would further improve our trades. If we would like to get back to doing that I would be much obliged; you fellas can take your little pissing match to another forum or topic. 

It's hard for a one man band to understand the complexities of being an employer and sometimes we, as employers become blind to those things that other people can see about the way we sail our ships.

There you're both right, I'm wrong and we can all move forward.


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## Jaws

Kowboy said:


> John:
> 
> Let's go with your "reasoning". Let's say that the Constitution were changed so that only congress persons who had actually been active in combat could vote on whether or not to take the country to war.
> 
> So a highly respected and intelligent reservist in Congress would be ineligible to vote, but according to your way of thinking that's just fine. No women legislators have seen combat, so that leaves them out too.
> 
> And what about legislators who had several tours and saw lots of action? Does that give them more votes than a veteran who was in theatre but behind the scenes? Where do we draw the line when circumstances become the criteria?
> 
> If your General customer shows you a code book that says joist hangers are required on his addition, his lack of construction experience is irrelevant. You would have to explain to him and the building inspector that toe nailing, the way you've always done it, was actually stronger and substantiate your claim.


You dont get it, hoss. 

I am not saying congress should only be made up of combat vets, they SHOULD be delegates elected by the people from their districts. They should absolutely vote for WHEN to go to war. Do I think some pencil neck dweeb with a Harvard education should be telling a 30 year veteran of his job HOW to plan a war or run one? No. Only an idiot would. They should be providing financial oversight and making sure no one goes off the reservation. What to bomb and not bomb? 

Absolutely if the general was to find a code violation and brought it to my attention I would have to answer for that and fix it. 

But using your example:

You are telling me there is a better practice issue. You have brought it up numerous times and attacked all contractors in doing so. Obviously someone so upset with an issue must know how to address it? I am unaware of how to do that, and asked you, since you so vehemently have described everyone not paying 50 dollars an hour, medical benifits and retirement as a capitalist pig, how do we fix it? 

You are declining to answer. You are basically a dude who knows something is wrong, but doesnt know how to go about fixing it, as far as I can tell. Which is where i am. My animosity toward you is that you are so adamant in your attacks on other individuals yet offer nothing but attacks and put downs. If a hack joined here and stayed through the attacks :laughing: and obviously wanted to do better for himself and his clients, I would do everything in my limited power to help that person. I have helped several people on this forum to the best of my abilities and been helped may times. 

Thats why I am here.


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## BamBamm5144

Oh man, I think we are being punked.


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## Admin

How about this possibility?



> "Where does the industry go to find talented, hardworking people? The answer lies with the military sending many talented young people into the workforce. These men and women have numerous hours of technical training and, most importantly, a proven ability to be trained and work on a team with a common goal. Why not seek these returning heroes who would make a great investment to a construction company" http://www.constructormagazine.com/heroes-to-construction/


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## PPRI

I'm going to try to get this train back on the tracks. 

I want to improve the contracting industry. I try to do what little I can but here's how I see it. 

We currently have built a system that is flawed. Contractors are not viewed by the public in the most flattering light. This is mostly our fault. We are an unregulated lot. We let anyone into our club and we are too lazy and caught up in the rat race to change. 

Picture doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. They have an exclusive club. Now at first glance you would think that there is an oversight committee or something that watches over these people and regulate the trade. You would be right, the funny thing is that this oversight is provided by their peers. Do you think any of these professionals want anyone off the streets joining their club? Heck no. Where's the profit in that? 

There are not many differences between us and them. A true professional contractor is as precise as a doctor, knows his trade like a lawyer and is a thorough as an engineer. A professional contactor invests in ongoing education, too long and his practice. 

There are many people that consider themselves professional contractors but what does that title mean and how did they earn that designation? It is up to us the make it mean something. Only we can change our proffesion.

I believe that it is going to take a drastic make over to change things. There's plenty of proof out there, we compete with it every day. A lawyer couldn't charge $200 an hour if anyone could be an attorney. An engineer would not be charging me $160 an hour if I could proclaim myself as a professional of structural loading. 

I could type way more but I think you get the gist.


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## Tinstaafl

Cricket said:


> How about this possibility?


I call foul, Cricket. That has nothing to do with your OP that posits there is actually a shortage of tradesmen. While it may be a partial solution to the problem in the thread title, it has yet to be proven that the problem actually exists.


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## Admin

Tinstaafl said:


> I call foul, Cricket. That has nothing to do with your OP that posits there is actually a shortage of tradesmen. While it may be a partial solution to the problem in the thread title, it has yet to be proven that the problem actually exists.


Good point. Let me ask you a question though. If there is no shortage, why do you feel so many contractors are having trouble hiring quality people?


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## Tinstaafl

Cricket said:


> Good point. Let me ask you a question though. If there is no shortage, why do you feel so many contractors are having trouble hiring quality people?


Though I generally detest the practice of answering a question with a question, do you honestly think that problem is limited to the field of construction contracting? I'm pretty sure that's been the lament of seniors in just about any field for generations.

When the demand is great enough, the supply arrives.


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## Admin

Oh I definitely believe it is happening in many trades and fields.

Here in this part of Texas, issues with finding skilled workers has been in the news a lot as many people took jobs with the fracking companies.


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## brickhook

Cricket said:


> Oh I definitely believe it is happening in many trades and fields.
> 
> Here in this part of Texas, issues with finding skilled workers has been in the news a lot as many people took jobs with the fracking companies.


One of my best employees went home for Christmas a few years ago. He ended up getting a job in Texas in the oil field on his way back, and he's still there.

He's making less money per hour, but he's getting 75 hours a week. Plus he's a lot closer to home. 

I miss him, but I certainly don't blame him.


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## flashheatingand

Cricket said:


> Good point. Let me ask you a question though. If there is no shortage, why do you feel so many contractors are having trouble hiring quality people?


Truth is, in just about every field, there is a dearth of quality applicants. Very few people want to do anything that requires more than forty hours of work. And very few employers pay their help, what they are worth.


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## EstimatorKev

As a contractor that has struggled to find hard-working, talented, dedicated carpenters to hire, I've concluded that some of the biggest factors are:

1) A society that over-values college education and under-values hard work and skilled trades. One employee of mine sticks out in my mind because he was a born carpenter; he was hard-working, truly gifted, and loved carpentry! Yet he was unsatisfied with pursuing carpentry as a career because he felt he should go back to college and pursue a degree. He LOVED framing and carpentry, but he didn't see it as a viable career option. That's a big problem. People see trade jobs as the destination of the uneducated, kids pick up on this. They don't see dignity in pursuing a career in blue-collar work. 

2) Since we've overvalued college degrees and college education, there is more supply of college-educated workers than there is demand. The result is kids with degrees sitting around and refusing to do trade work because they feel it's beneath them. Why would someone with a college degree swing a hammer? Instead I'll sit and play X-box while awaiting the job offer (probably 6-figures with a pension) to which my B.S. in Post-modern Apocalyptic Literature has entitled me. 

3) I'm not sure laziness is THE problem, though it is a problem. I think an attitude of entitlement is more pervasive. Many kids who are lazy with regards to traditional work will work very hard in an office, or in their own yard. Their education, however, entitles them to a position with more glory than that of a carpenter, mason, electrician, etc. 

I didn't read all 6 pages of posts so forgive me if someone already posted a similar sentiment, but here's my two cents! 

Kevin


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## Golden view

As someone who went to college but chose the trades, I'd very much agree that as a society we undervalue hard work and skilled trades, and many people who shouldn't go to college end up there.

That said, I wouldn't trade my college experience for anything even though it has nothing to do with my career. It gives me an unexpected competitive advantage as a contractor, I met my best friends and found the woman of my dreams, and I had a whole lot of fun.

I'd like to see more post-secondary programs at traditional colleges for those interested in the trades to give them the same status in society as anyone else who went to college to become a professional.


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## PPRI

Traditionally in my area the trades have been treated as a stepping stone. It's not a career but a job that will get you by until you discover your career.

We created that. I'm as guilty as anyone. I was viewing my employees as temporary. They came and they went. Then they stopped coming in. I realized that I had fallen short in mu creation of a sustainable company. I was cresting jobs but not careers. I couldn't blame the employees because the grass was greener on the other side. 

Now we have tried to create an environment of security and promotion inside our company. You start out with a job and if you prove yourself as an asset we will offer you a career. We want our people to stay and be loyal so we try and foster that.


----------



## asgoodasdead

we're willing to pay top dollar to guys who are worth top dollar but what we've been seeing lately is EVERYONE wants top dollar whether they're worth it or not. we're not gonna pay some guy $35/hr when his skillset is around $20/hr just cause he says he 'needs' it to pay his bills. and as far as benefits and paid vacation time goes, it would put us out of business. regardless of how good our work is, our price is constantly being held against uninsured crews who pay their guys cash. we pay our guys legally through a payroll system and pay liability and workman's comp. GCS don't care about any of that, apparently. just price.


----------



## RangoWA

I got a college degree because I thought that's what you were supposed to do to get ahead. I put it up and told people it was worth it, it takes up a whole square foot of wall space.


----------



## RangoWA

asgoodasdead said:


> we pay our guys legally through a payroll system and pay liability and workman's comp. GCS don't care about any of that, apparently. just price.


Their customers don't care, just price.


----------



## PPRI

asgoodasdead said:


> we're willing to pay top dollar to guys who are worth top dollar but what we've been seeing lately is EVERYONE wants top dollar whether they're worth it or not. we're not gonna pay some guy $35/hr when his skillset is around $20/hr just cause he says he 'needs' it to pay his bills. and as far as benefits and paid vacation time goes, it would put us out of business. regardless of how good our work is, our price is constantly being held against uninsured crews who pay their guys cash. we pay our guys legally through a payroll system and pay liability and workman's comp. GCS don't care about any of that, apparently. just price.


See that's what I was talking about in one of my previous posts. We have to change this industry. No one is going to do it for us. We must regulate ourselves.


----------



## asgoodasdead

RangoWA said:


> Their customers don't care, just price.


we just lost a job that we priced very competitively cause another framer was $20,000 cheaper. the GC said we could match it or walk. we went over our numbers again and walked. that other framer must have missed something somewhere and he's gonna lose his shirt and the GC will probably end up with a mess.


----------



## RangoWA

asgoodasdead said:


> we just lost a job that we priced very competitively cause another framer was $20,000 cheaper. the GC said we could match it or walk. we went over our numbers again and walked. that other framer must have missed something somewhere and he's gonna lose his shirt and the GC will probably end up with a mess.


That's very possible, maybe he's paying in pesos but those things have a way of sorting themselves out.


----------



## CCBuild

There's an inherent public distrust and image of contractors that is in no small part the result of lowballing, straight up illegal practices, and shoddy work. Perhaps much stricter standards and testing would help, but I think it's also the current enforcement of laws that is lacking. Not to get off the topic but how can you realistically compete by paying the same labor burden legally for one employee as your competitor does for 3 "independent contractors?" Where there is no accountability the quality suffers and we are left with the image of being licensed quick-change artists. -What kid in his/her right mind aspires to become part of that?


----------



## Warren

asgoodasdead said:


> we just lost a job that we priced very competitively cause another framer was $20,000 cheaper. the GC said we could match it or walk. we went over our numbers again and walked. that other framer must have missed something somewhere and he's gonna lose his shirt and the GC will probably end up with a mess.


Why would you need to go over your numbers again? If you suddenly found out that you did the math wrong and it was less, would you show that to the contractor?


----------



## asgoodasdead

Warren said:


> Why would you need to go over your numbers again? If you suddenly found out that you did the math wrong and it was less, would you show that to the contractor?


not really, we just went over them again cause we were completely baffled how someone could be THAT MUCH lower and still expect to turn a profit.


----------



## Kowboy

Andrew6127 said:


> No OT on this job sadly, I'm a sub not an employee.
> 
> He takes care of me though, paid 45 minute lunch, performance bonus. If we finish ahead of schedule he gets a bonus. He cuts his regular guys and hard working new guys in on that too.


I'm having trouble understanding how you can be a sub contractor and still get a paid 45 minute lunch. It seems to me your paid lunch should have been included in your bid.

Please don't tell me you're working for 14.00 an hour as a "sub contractor".


----------



## TNTRenovate

asgoodasdead said:


> Jesus christ. and you're giving him grief for eliminating clients.


Not at all. FJN posted that we should charge for estimates. But he defined an estimate as a detailed quote. It doesn't take but a few minutes to put together a true estimate.

Everyone limits their work radius, but not everyone charges for estimates. It's not the result but the method I have an issue with.

Do you charge for estimates?


----------



## asgoodasdead

TNTSERVICES said:


> Not at all. FJN posted that we should charge for estimates. But he defined an estimate as a detailed quote. It doesn't take but a few minutes to put together a true estimate.
> 
> Everyone limits their work radius, but not everyone charges for estimates. It's not the result but the method I have an issue with.
> 
> Do you charge for estimates?


we don't, but if we only worked within 20-30 minutes away we would eliminate more customers than charging for estimates.


----------



## Stephen H

asgoodasdead said:


> we don't, but if we only worked within 20-30 minutes away we would eliminate more customers than charging for estimates.



up untill 2009-2010 we were still primarily in asphalt shingles and we worked WAY over 90% of the time within a 10-12 block radius of my house.

We didn't charge for Estimates then either.

Once we focused on the slate & tile----- we needed to cover 5 counties to maintain a customer base. Much more driving---- but a MUCH better lifestyle as well.

We still don't charge everyone to look at their project----- typically a prospect will call and say " We got one of your post cards in the mail and my neighbor says you did work on HIS roof a year or so ago. perhaps you can help us??? I don't know what to do. I have a 1926 house with a Ludowici Tile roof and we have a leak on a back dormer. Can you ........" In that case I don't charge for an estimate because------ they have a clearly defined problem and it's clear they intend to fix the problem----- so we have an excellent closing ratio with those customers.

the prospects I described earlier this morning ????--- well what those folks want is a detailed roof survey----for free. closing ratio with them is basically ZERO.--- closing ratio with people who pay $425 for a detailed report---- almost 100%. So it's very effective.


----------



## Stephen H

Kowboy said:


> I'm having trouble understanding how you can be a sub contractor and still get a paid 45 minute lunch. It seems to me your paid lunch should have been included in your bid.
> 
> Please don't tell me you're working for 14.00 an hour as a "sub contractor".


 I was wondering that as well.
No wonder they have to work 12 hours a day/9 days a week/400 days a year...... in order to earn a living.
stephen


----------



## BucketofSteam

Kowboy said:


> I'm having trouble understanding how you can be a sub contractor and still get a paid 45 minute lunch. It seems to me your paid lunch should have been included in your bid.
> 
> Please don't tell me you're working for 14.00 an hour as a "sub contractor".


I think he's making a really good case for not wanting to work for this guy.


----------



## HardWorks

I always charge for an estimate/quote. TNT if you can throw out an estimate that is fair to you and your client in 30 minutes you should take up estimating as a career.

All estimate charges are refunded and or included in contract. 

Now back to the OP topic. 

In my spare time I am the construction manager for HFH. Yesterday and today we build two ADA ramps. We have all walks of life, from bank presidents to college kids. In my work, we chat on different things. One thing is they all realize HGTV and real world is different after a build. We also talk business IE (salaries). 

I'm a retired from the UBC with 25 years and have my own union company now. My average salary over 25 years has been as much or more than a civil engineer, a bank VP and various other professional occupations. Yes, it was because of the 7, 12 hour days in the refineries, power houses or the owners wanted their buildings yesterday. 

What I have witnessed in the last two days.

1) Woman out work the men.
2) Young man are pussy's
3) All young kids are glued to their phones.
4) Most people don't have common sense.
5) It was 55 degrees and everybody was cold. LOL
6) Not many of them were taught by their parents. I had a young college male today say his dad would not let him use tools when he help him. His dad said you'll smack your finger. No kidding. 
7) Every body wants to be great the first time they do something. TV makes it look easy. If they are not good the first time, they give up.

I have two boys and 22 and 26 year old daughters. One boy and one girl work great with me. One boy and one girl won't even consider this. One boy and both girls have college degrees. The youngest is still in HS. 

Real world experience is the best teacher. It has been for me. When anybody asks me what I do for a living, I always say I'm a carpenter. When they see what I have accomplished in life at my age they can't believe it.


----------



## asgoodasdead

tried to bring in 3 new guys yesterday. only 1 showed up. he's pretty green and wants more money than he's worth, but he's a hard worker and says he "loves framing" so he seems like a keeper. plus he actually has a car and license and all that fun stuff.


----------



## Jaws

Kowboy said:


> I'm having trouble understanding how you can be a sub contractor and still get a paid 45 minute lunch. It seems to me your paid lunch should have been included in your bid.
> 
> Please don't tell me you're working for 14.00 an hour as a "sub contractor".


Subs work by the hour, and it is legal all day long. 

I dont use him, but the most expensive and well known trim crew here will ONLY work by the hour. It aint any 14 dollars an hour either. Those are ditch digger wages. He will only work for certain people, and he charges from the time they leave the shop until they leave the job from my understanding. 

When I have to sub remodel work (demo, framing, ect....) I use a crew that primarily does cornice and framing by the sq ft. They wont bid remodel work, cant say I blame them. Their boss invoices me for their hours, and I pay him, he pays his guys. His own DBA , insurance, truck and tools. His guys make a good wage and he makes a good profit. If I told him to bill me for their lunch hour, that would be perfectly legal. 

My electrician works for me by the hour.

My plumber works for me by the hour. 

My excavator works for me by the hour. 

All legit businesses. 

Dont think you know everything about everything, hoss. You dont.


----------



## TNTRenovate

asgoodasdead said:


> we don't, but if we only worked within 20-30 minutes away we would eliminate more customers than charging for estimates.


Right, but I am not advocating contractors only work 20-30 minutes away, but they are advocating that all contractors should charge for their estimates. See the difference?

Like I said, we all limit our radius, you as well, just not 20-30 minutes.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Stephen H said:


> up untill 2009-2010 we were still primarily in asphalt shingles and we worked WAY over 90% of the time within a 10-12 block radius of my house.
> 
> We didn't charge for Estimates then either.
> 
> Once we focused on the slate & tile----- we needed to cover 5 counties to maintain a customer base. Much more driving---- but a MUCH better lifestyle as well.
> 
> We still don't charge everyone to look at their project----- typically a prospect will call and say " We got one of your post cards in the mail and my neighbor says you did work on HIS roof a year or so ago. perhaps you can help us??? I don't know what to do. I have a 1926 house with a Ludowici Tile roof and we have a leak on a back dormer. Can you ........" In that case I don't charge for an estimate because------ they have a clearly defined problem and it's clear they intend to fix the problem----- so we have an excellent closing ratio with those customers.
> 
> the prospects I described earlier this morning ????--- well what those folks want is a detailed roof survey----for free. closing ratio with them is basically ZERO.--- closing ratio with people who pay $425 for a detailed report---- almost 100%. So it's very effective.


So we agree. You are not providing an estimate, but a detailed quote. I also charge for detail. It is what I have said all along. Give an estimate (general scope with a range of numbers) for free...charge for a detailed quote, or as in your case, a detailed survey.


----------



## TNTRenovate

HardWorks said:


> I always charge for an estimate/quote. TNT if you can throw out an estimate that is fair to you and your client in 30 minutes you should take up estimating as a career.
> 
> All estimate charges are refunded and or included in contract.
> 
> Now back to the OP topic.
> 
> In my spare time I am the construction manager for HFH. Yesterday and today we build two ADA ramps. We have all walks of life, from bank presidents to college kids. In my work, we chat on different things. One thing is they all realize HGTV and real world is different after a build. We also talk business IE (salaries).
> 
> I'm a retired from the UBC with 25 years and have my own union company now. My average salary over 25 years has been as much or more than a civil engineer, a bank VP and various other professional occupations. Yes, it was because of the 7, 12 hour days in the refineries, power houses or the owners wanted their buildings yesterday.
> 
> What I have witnessed in the last two days.
> 
> 1) Woman out work the men.
> 2) Young man are pussy's
> 3) All young kids are glued to their phones.
> 4) Most people don't have common sense.
> 5) It was 55 degrees and everybody was cold. LOL
> 6) Not many of them were taught by their parents. I had a young college male today say his dad would not let him use tools when he help him. His dad said you'll smack your finger. No kidding.
> 7) Every body wants to be great the first time they do something. TV makes it look easy. If they are not good the first time, they give up.
> 
> I have two boys and 22 and 26 year old daughters. One boy and one girl work great with me. One boy and one girl won't even consider this. One boy and both girls have college degrees. The youngest is still in HS.
> 
> Real world experience is the best teacher. It has been for me. When anybody asks me what I do for a living, I always say I'm a carpenter. When they see what I have accomplished in life at my age they can't believe it.


Again you confuse estimate and quote. Any professional in his field should be able to quickly look at a job and give a customer a budget range also known as an estimate. No need to charge for general numbers.


----------



## HardWorks

TNT, I have managed about 3 billion in work in my career, I know the difference between an estimate and a quote. On my commercial and industrial bids, it is not an estimate but a bid. On residence work, I don't give any one a estimate in short order, like $6 a sq. Ft. or such, because it isn't fair to them or me and it gives them a chance to say, I'm to high or me a chance to lose my shirt. 

I charge for estimates as you call it but when I leave they get a quote. I don't make any money on it but I'd say it is close to $6000 a year. That's gas money in the truck, and my time is worth way more than that. 

Keep cheating yourself we don't care.


----------



## Kowboy

Jaws said:


> Subs work by the hour, and it is legal all day long.
> 
> Dont think you know everything about everything, hoss. You dont.


Jaws:

I'm repairing a store facade on Wednesday night after the mall closes all time and material. I'm still trying to find where I said I know everything. Can't seem to find it, Hoss.


----------



## WBailey1041

HardWorks said:


> I always charge for an estimate/quote. TNT if you can throw out an estimate that is fair to you and your client in 30 minutes you should take up estimating as a career. All estimate charges are refunded and or included in contract. Now back to the OP topic. In my spare time I am the construction manager for HFH. Yesterday and today we build two ADA ramps. We have all walks of life, from bank presidents to college kids. In my work, we chat on different things. One thing is they all realize HGTV and real world is different after a build. We also talk business IE (salaries). I'm a retired from the UBC with 25 years and have my own union company now. My average salary over 25 years has been as much or more than a civil engineer, a bank VP and various other professional occupations. Yes, it was because of the 7, 12 hour days in the refineries, power houses or the owners wanted their buildings yesterday. What I have witnessed in the last two days. 1) Woman out work the men. 2) Young man are pussy's 3) All young kids are glued to their phones. 4) Most people don't have common sense. 5) It was 55 degrees and everybody was cold. LOL 6) Not many of them were taught by their parents. I had a young college male today say his dad would not let him use tools when he help him. His dad said you'll smack your finger. No kidding. 7) Every body wants to be great the first time they do something. TV makes it look easy. If they are not good the first time, they give up. I have two boys and 22 and 26 year old daughters. One boy and one girl work great with me. One boy and one girl won't even consider this. One boy and both girls have college degrees. The youngest is still in HS. Real world experience is the best teacher. It has been for me. When anybody asks me what I do for a living, I always say I'm a carpenter. When they see what I have accomplished in life at my age they can't believe it.


How old are you ?


----------



## JBM

I don't give quotes I just paint any room for 350.


----------



## Jaws

Kowboy said:


> Jaws:
> 
> I'm repairing a store facade on Wednesday night after the mall closes all time and material. I'm still trying to find where I said I know everything. Can't seem to find it, Hoss.


Maybe its your preachy way of looking down on people you dont know that led me to believe you believe you know all.

Pretty sub par to assume a dude is a 1099 employee for no reason. While you didnt flat out say you assumed it, you just implied it. Just pisses me off when people get on a soap box they dont belong on. 

Sorry if I misread your response.


----------



## TNTRenovate

HardWorks said:


> TNT, I have managed about 3 billion in work in my career, I know the difference between an estimate and a quote. On my commercial and industrial bids, it is not an estimate but a bid. On residence work, I don't give any one a estimate in short order, like $6 a sq. Ft. or such, because it isn't fair to them or me and it gives them a chance to say, I'm to high or me a chance to lose my shirt.
> 
> I charge for estimates as you call it but when I leave they get a quote. I don't make any money on it but I'd say it is close to $6000 a year. That's gas money in the truck, and my time is worth way more than that.
> 
> Keep cheating yourself we don't care.


Apparently you don't. If you are giving a per sq ft price and not a range, that is a quote not an estimate. You give them a range. It's as easy as saying, "You are going to spend between X-Y dollars for this project. Does that fit your budget?"

If you give them a quote that is what you are charging. I'm not cheating myself out of anything. It's funny how you guys have to give numbers to prove a point. It's part of my overhead. It's figured in. I know how much gas I use every year. I add a percentage for growth and increasing prices and it's figure in. So I'm not cheating myself out of anything.

All that I am saying is you potentially leave a large quantity of very good clients out there by charging for some as simple as an estimate. This is all in response to the idea that all contractors should charge for estimates. That's usually said by guys that are charging and having a hard time justifying it to your customers so you need everyone to do it.

My advice is to learn how to properly qualify your leads, give them a free estimate and then charge for detailed designs and quotes. The free estimate could be onsite or over the phone. Minimize travel by grouping your estimates.

And why do guys feel the need to spout numbers. If I gave you my numbers would it make my point more valid in your eyes? See what I mean. I don't care what numbers you throw out, they don't impress me nor make your point more valid. Charge all you want, just don't advocate all contractors do it, or act like they don't know what they are doing because they don't. Pride cometh before a fall.


----------



## Jaws

Personally, I will meet with anyone about any project in the realm of our abilities, and give them an honest no BS ball park of the cost. I explain it is just a preliminary number, it might be considerably higher or lower depending on their choices and the details of the project. If it is a small rehab or repair, I will give them a bid at no charge. It takes very little time. 

If it is a remodel, even a small remodel, like gutting a bathroom, after the initial estimate, I charge for a scope, bid and contract. Non refundable, whether we get the job or not. For a small job like a bathroom, its a little more than what Stephen is charging. For an addition or a remodel, it will be considerably higher. It is a professional services agreement. We lose the opportunity to bid projects for it, but we land almosr everyone we bid. 

Design is charged for seperately.


----------



## blacktop

........


----------



## Stephen H

TNTSERVICES said:


> Right, but I am not advocating contractors only work 20-30 minutes away, but they are advocating that all contractors should charge for their estimates. See the difference?
> 
> Like I said, we all limit our radius, you as well, just not 20-30 minutes.



I must have missed something----- I don't remember reading anything in this thread about ALL contractors should charge for estimates.

what I read was " here is what I (we) do, how we do it and why we do it."---- the reader can apply it as they see fit.

Stephen


----------



## Stephen H

Jaws said:


> Maybe its your preachy way of looking down on people you dont know that led me to believe you believe you know all.
> 
> Pretty sub par to assume a dude is a 1099 employee for no reason. While you didnt flat out say you assumed it, you just implied it. Just pisses me off when people get on a soap box they dont belong on.
> 
> Sorry if I misread your response.


 I think you mis-read the situation John.

I assume the position described is some variation of a 1099 deal as well. Far from assuming it for" no reason"---- I assume it because as described it fits perfectly into many 1099 "arrangements" I have witnessed.

BTW--- I generally like what Kowboy has to say and I don't have a problem with how he says it.

YOU don't like what he has to say because it's usually from a more liberal slant or advocating workers rights----- so you find it"preachy"

In fairness john---- it's a rare day here on CT where I DON'T read some pretty obnoxious Conservative tirade preached from a soapbox-----and you never object to THOSE----- I assume because you agree with their overall position

so---all in all, you don't REALLY object to how he says things---- you just really object to what he says.

stephen


----------



## HardWorks

WBailey1041 said:


> How old are you ?


47 years old.


----------



## HardWorks

TNTSERVICES said:


> Apparently you don't. If you are giving a per sq ft price and not a range, that is a quote not an estimate. You give them a range. It's as easy as saying, "You are going to spend between X-Y dollars for this project. Does that fit your budget?"
> 
> If you give them a quote that is what you are charging. I'm not cheating myself out of anything. It's funny how you guys have to give numbers to prove a point. It's part of my overhead. It's figured in. I know how much gas I use every year. I add a percentage for growth and increasing prices and it's figure in. So I'm not cheating myself out of anything.
> 
> All that I am saying is you potentially leave a large quantity of very good clients out there by charging for some as simple as an estimate. This is all in response to the idea that all contractors should charge for estimates. That's usually said by guys that are charging and having a hard time justifying it to your customers so you need everyone to do it.
> 
> My advice is to learn how to properly qualify your leads, give them a free estimate and then charge for detailed designs and quotes. The free estimate could be onsite or over the phone. Minimize travel by grouping your estimates.
> 
> And why do guys feel the need to spout numbers. If I gave you my numbers would it make my point more valid in your eyes? See what I mean. I don't care what numbers you throw out, they don't impress me nor make your point more valid. Charge all you want, just don't advocate all contractors do it, or act like they don't know what they are doing because they don't. Pride cometh before a fall.


You must be the forums know it all. On my commercial work there is not estimate its bid and negotiated. On the residential work, I dont say it between this and this, I give them a hard number bid. Always! Never a vague number. 

No one here from what I read is saying anyone doesn't know what they are doing by not charging for an estimate. 

Only you TNT are arguing that. How do you tell a man he does know that he doesn't know? You cant


----------



## CarpenterDoug

I blame ins companies and govt lic boards for the current mess the trades are in.
Add to that new epa rules and who in their right mind wants to put oneself at risk for ruin.
Top it off with an economy that makes the market think it can use us against one another to get their work done for next to nothing.

As for estimates,....I use a variety of means to that end. I quote fine finishings by the foot and murphy law any possible issues,..like expensive artwork and furniture underfoot everywhere. Sometimes I'll jus tell the prospect to name their own price. Sometimes they'll offer more than I'd ask so I say,..OK.
One customer a few weeks ago wanted a bunch of things dome in a flip house of his. I told'm I'd do it all for 45.00 an hour. He said no,..and just wanted solid prices. So to cut and set a kitchen countertop I told'm 400.oo. He said yes and I had it cut and set within an hour. I installed a front entrance door for another 400.oo and took two hours. He was NOT pleased,..but,paid me what was due and asked to continue at my hourly rate.


----------



## Jaws

Stephen H said:


> I think you mis-read the situation John.
> 
> I assume the position described is some variation of a 1099 deal as well. Far from assuming it for" no reason"---- I assume it because as described it fits perfectly into many 1099 "arrangements" I have witnessed.
> 
> BTW--- I generally like what Kowboy has to say and I don't have a problem with how he says it.
> 
> YOU don't like what he has to say because it's usually from a more liberal slant or advocating workers rights----- so you find it"preachy"
> 
> In fairness john---- it's a rare day here on CT where I DON'T read some pretty obnoxious Conservative tirade preached from a soapbox-----and you never object to THOSE----- I assume because you agree with their overall position
> 
> so---all in all, you don't REALLY object to how he says things---- you just really object to what he says.
> 
> stephen


Thats an observation, not sure its a correct one. :laughing:

I honestly dont have a problem with anyone arguing an opposing viewpoint, liberal or not. I think if you pay closer attention you will see that, and be surprised who's side I defend. I got into a pretty good scrape on here backing a lib advocating legalizing drugs (which I dont agree with) because the other poster made assumptions about their character I didnt agree with. 

Why do you think I dont want better for Americas work force???? Because I called Kowboy out for throwing unrealistic utopian ideas out there, which he refuses to explain how he implement even though he attacks all business owners for not implementing them?

Like I said, he comes across as someone who spends a long time looking down their nose at other people, and if I was going to make an assumption, id assume he was doing so standing in a pile of crap.

As to the business at hand, while what he said could be seen either way, I choose not to ASSUME like a child that he is doing the wrong thing. Perfect example I see everyday of legit subs in his situation, two independent carpenters who have their own DBA and insurance, their own projects. One gets a project that is too big for them to handle alone, instead of hiring a temporary employee or from a temp agency, they hire the other independent contractor by the hour for that project. The hiree gets his desired "wage" and enough to cover his overhead. 

I see that all the time. All the time. Whether you like it or not, that is perfectly legal from everything I have read or seen. 

I see nothing in Andrews post to lead me to believe he isnt doing something along those lines. What I dont get is why someone would continually make an ass out of themselves by making assumption after assumption. 

Now if Andrew had outed himself as a 1099 "employee", well, come on, we both know I wouldnt have anything positive to say for him :laughing: I highly doubt there are many people who despise contractors who hire under the table than i do. It is rampant here. 

I just dont make the assumption that he is, which is enormously disrespectful in my honest opinion.


----------



## TNTRenovate

fjn said:


> *With all that said,we as a profession need to start to value our time*,if we do not,how can we expect clients to ? *A good starting place would be to stop giving FREE estimates*. Since all estimates take time,why be willing to give it away?
> 
> Value your time,it will enhance the worlds view of your time,which will cause others to aspire to this line of work.
> 
> 
> Just my .02.





Stephen H said:


> I must have missed something----- I don't remember reading anything in this thread about ALL contractors should charge for estimates.
> 
> what I read was " here is what I (we) do, how we do it and why we do it."---- the reader can apply it as they see fit.
> 
> Stephen


Seems like that is a call for all contractors to start charging for estimates to me. :whistling


----------



## TNTRenovate

HardWorks said:


> You must be the forums know it all. On my commercial work there is not estimate its bid and negotiated. On the residential work, I dont say it between this and this, I give them a hard number bid. Always! Never a vague number.
> 
> No one here from what I read is saying anyone doesn't know what they are doing by not charging for an estimate.
> 
> Only you TNT are arguing that. How do you tell a man he does know that he doesn't know? You cant


Are you not arguing with me...seems like you are battling for the title?

I figured in all your years you would be able to read and comprehend, apparently not. I never indicated they didn't know what they were doing. In fact they said it weeds out tire kickers and the like and I have simply said it's poor advice to suggest all should do it.

That's it. I am just giving the opposing view, my view. They along with you said that I lose money by not charging. I disagree. It's figured into my overhead. Seems to me that you think you know everything by the assumptions that I lose something by not charging and that I am wasting my time going to give an estimate for free.

If I didn't figure out a range (estimate) the project was going to cost and figure out what there budget was I would continue to waste my time coming up with detailed quotes. I decided a few years ago that all that is needed in residential remodeling is a ball park, estimate...set of numbers to let the client know if their budget in mind was realistic. I have been able to weed out many who were not on target. It allowed me to move on to more ready prospects and them to either save more or find another contractor.


----------



## BradingCon

I think it was the paid 45 minute lunch that made me assume the op is a 1099 sub. If I told my plumber he could have a paid 45 min lunch he would say I'll eat as long as I want and you will pay what the invoice says.


----------



## Jaws

BradingCon said:


> I think it was the paid 45 minute lunch that made me assume the op is a 1099 sub. If I told my plumber he could have a paid 45 min lunch he would say I'll eat as long as I want and you will pay what the invoice says.


If that alone leads you to believe the dude is making 14 dollars an hour and isnt a legit sub, we just reason things out differently :laughing: I need more information to make an observation like that. 

I see the point with the plumber. But whats to say this guys situation isnt like the one I posted above, one independent working under another? 

Not saying the dude isnt a 1099 employee. Just struck me as disrespectful to assume he was. It would be like calling him a hack imo. Same for the 14 dollars an hour, which if that wasnt a dig, I dont what is. 

Yall have a good one. Paperworks done and im off to work.


----------



## BradingCon

Hey I never said or assumed he was a hack or made $14 an hour. I just assumed the gc dictated what and where he did things. And I could be dead wrong. That has happened before once or twice.


----------



## Andrew6127

Kowboy said:


> I'm having trouble understanding how you can be a sub contractor and still get a paid 45 minute lunch. It seems to me your paid lunch should have been included in your bid.
> 
> Please don't tell me you're working for 14.00 an hour as a "sub contractor".


I am no ones employee, I am a "sub". 

I choose to go with an hourly wage vs. a flat rate for many reasons. I am not the contractor, I do not know if he is paid a flat rate,by sq foot, or what. That is his business, not mine. 

Because I do not look at the job first to look for things that may require more work, potential for delays, etc. I will not agree for a flat rate.

I make well above 14 an hour. I have my own insurance and a dba set up, I do not currently nor will I ever work under the table.

None of this is any of your concern in the first place. 

In my case by the hour is smarter, if the electricians come in to temp light and something goes wrong, I am paid while I sit for it to be dealt with. Giving me less of a chance to worry about my money. 

To tell the guy "I want this much" then issues dragging the job out which would reduce what I make vs. what I work, ef that. I want to be paid for my time.


----------



## TNTRenovate

Andrew6127 said:


> I am no ones employee, I am a "sub".
> 
> I choose to go with an hourly wage vs. a flat rate for many reasons. I am not the contractor, I do not know if he is paid a flat rate,by sq foot, or what. That is his business, not mine.
> 
> Because I do not look at the job first to look for things that may require more work, potential for delays, etc. I will not agree for a flat rate.
> 
> I make well above 14 an hour. I have my own insurance and a dba set up, I do not currently nor will I ever work under the table.
> 
> None of this is any of your concern in the first place.
> 
> In my case by the hour is smarter, if the electricians come in to temp light and something goes wrong, I am paid while I sit for it to be dealt with. Giving me less of a chance to worry about my money.
> 
> To tell the guy "I want this much" then issues dragging the job out which would reduce what I make vs. what I work, ef that. I want to be paid for my time.


If you have a contract, delays are not freebies. Any delay that is out if my control I charge for our time, unless I can fill the gap with other work. It's just a part of doing business.


----------



## Andrew6127

BradingCon said:


> I just assumed the gc dictated what and where he did things.


No sir. I show up, we do the typical how's the wife and kids talk. He tells me have fun, I grab my tools and do what needs to be done.


----------



## BradingCon

Andrew6127 said:


> No sir. I show up, we do the typical how's the wife and kids talk. He tells me have fun, I grab my tools and do what needs to be done.


There you go. I was wrong haha. Sounds good to me.


----------



## Jeremiah2911

To the original question...

The push to go to college is the norm by not only the educational system but from family. Not all millennials actually are lazy and not every contractor is a hard worker. 

A lot of contractors I know boast about what school their dear son wants to go to/got accepted to. Even if they don't say it, they don't want their own kid to follow in their footsteps. People are often shocked to learn that I hold a degree from an ivy league and that my husband also holds a degree as well, and I use my degree every darn day. I don't know when construction became antonymous with education. There is nothing demeaning about the work we do. The fact remains we are artisans that can do things most people can't. They DIY and fail. A computer cannot replace all that we do unlike most careers that require a college degree. 

We are in our 20s and learned very early on that our generation will be fighting the job war forever. With traditional work our generation won't be *allowed* to retire until our mid 70s. There's this idea among some members of the public/customers that we are the help...if they only knew how much the help makes. 

Plus, we are legitimate business owners. No matter how profitable (or not) your business is, having a business means something--it's an accomplishment to be proud of.


----------



## Andrew6127

asgoodasdead said:


> tried to bring in 3 new guys yesterday. only 1 showed up. he's pretty green and wants more money than he's worth, but he's a hard worker and says he "loves framing" so he seems like a keeper. plus he actually has a car and license and all that fun stuff.


Hope you got yourself a good one!


----------



## Stephen H

TNTSERVICES said:


> Seems like that is a call for all contractors to start charging for estimates to me. :whistling


 how,
EXACTLY--- is that ---- even remotely a call "for all contractors to start charging for estimates" ?

it has no resemblance to that what-so-ever.

on this forum--- people describe what they do, how they do it and why they do it that way all the time.

I would assume that's why most of us come here---- to see how OTHER people do things and to see if we might adapt what some one else does to our own situations.

it's called learning


Stephen


----------



## Stephen H

Jaws said:


> Thats an observation, not sure its a correct one. :laughing:
> 
> I honestly dont have a problem with anyone arguing an opposing viewpoint, liberal or not. I think if you pay closer attention you will see that, and be surprised who's side I defend. I got into a pretty good scrape on here backing a lib advocating legalizing drugs (which I dont agree with) because the other poster made assumptions about their character I didnt agree with.
> 
> Why do you think I dont want better for Americas work force???? Because I called Kowboy out for throwing unrealistic utopian ideas out there, which he refuses to explain how he implement even though he attacks all business owners for not implementing them?
> 
> Like I said, he comes across as someone who spends a long time looking down their nose at other people, and if I was going to make an assumption, id assume he was doing so standing in a pile of crap.
> 
> As to the business at hand, while what he said could be seen either way, I choose not to ASSUME like a child that he is doing the wrong thing. Perfect example I see everyday of legit subs in his situation, two independent carpenters who have their own DBA and insurance, their own projects. One gets a project that is too big for them to handle alone, instead of hiring a temporary employee or from a temp agency, they hire the other independent contractor by the hour for that project. The hiree gets his desired "wage" and enough to cover his overhead.
> 
> I see that all the time. All the time. Whether you like it or not, that is perfectly legal from everything I have read or seen.
> 
> I see nothing in Andrews post to lead me to believe he isnt doing something along those lines. What I dont get is why someone would continually make an ass out of themselves by making assumption after assumption.
> 
> Now if Andrew had outed himself as a 1099 "employee", well, come on, we both know I wouldnt have anything positive to say for him :laughing: I highly doubt there are many people who despise contractors who hire under the table than i do. It is rampant here.
> 
> I just dont make the assumption that he is, which is enormously disrespectful in my honest opinion.


 John,

A) If Kowboy threw out un-realistic utopian ideals--- I must have missed them---- what were they ????

B)---- I don't see him at all as looking down his nose at people---- I don't know where you are getting that from.

i DO, however think he may have more formal education than you are used to dealing with--- and his ability to structure his position from a formal,proper use of logic--- frustrates you when you can't refute his points.

c)regarding the sub-contractor thing.

look at the situation clearly.---
we both read the same thing
we BOTH made assumptions based on our own personal experience.

MY experience has been that what Andrew originally described is almost always a bogus 1099 situation--- in my experience it overwhelmingly comes down that way

YOUR experience is the opposite

we both made assumptions based on our experience.

so why is it cool for YOU to make assumptions based on your experience------ but childish for other people to make assumptions based on their experiences?


talk to you later---- got to run the dogs.
stephen


----------



## TNTRenovate

Stephen H said:


> how,
> EXACTLY--- is that ---- even remotely a call "for all contractors to start charging for estimates" ?
> 
> it has no resemblance to that what-so-ever.
> 
> on this forum--- people describe what they do, how they do it and why they do it that way all the time.
> 
> I would assume that's why most of us come here---- to see how OTHER people do things and to see if we might adapt what some one else does to our own situations.
> 
> it's called learning
> 
> 
> Stephen


I'm trying hard to find a way to say this without it sounding insulting, but did you read what he said? It's plain English.

"With all that said,*we* *as a profession need to start to value our time*,if we do not,how can we expect clients to ? A good starting place would be to stop giving FREE estimates. Since all estimates take time,why be willing to give it away?"

He said WE (inclusive to the audience, not exclusive to himself). He said need to start, that is a call to action. He has defined the Subject "WE" and then told us what "WE" should be doing. And then he explained why. 

If you don't see that as even a remote call to do exactly that then you are either blind, stupid or just trying to be difficult. I know your are not blind nor stupid, so I have to assume that you are just trying to be difficult. But then I read that you don't think it even has a resemblance to a call for everyone to charge so I can only conclude that you have to be a little of all three.

I also find it funny that you say we are here to learn, but when I present an opposing view some how I am telling others what to do. I am just presenting exactly that, an opposing view, and as I have stated, my view, to the subject of charging for estimates.


----------



## kfc510

TimNJ said:


> That picture is too small for my eyes.
> 
> What is he doing? Replacing soffit?


He's prepping for painting. He's sanding the wood trim.


----------



## texasinspector

*USA Business as Usual*

Here are the reasons, as I see them, for a shortage of skilled tradesmen:

1. The universities have sold everyone on the idea that one must have a college degree to be anything but a schmuck. That is why we have over-educated morons bagging groceries and mopping floors.

2. The builders do not want to pay the salaries that trade school-educated tradesmen would demand.

3. Open shop states like mine don't want unions overseeing the crap that passes for craftsmanship in their territories.

4. The chief tenant of one of the political parties (I'll let you decide which one) teaches that you can convince poor people that, if they give what little money they have to the rich people, they too will become rich. And sadly, many Americans believe this. It is the only country in the world where one can buy a Korean car for under $15K replete with a 10-year/100K mile warranty, backed by federal and state lemon laws, and can spend >$1,000,000 on a new house only to get a "warranty" that has the value of a roll of toilet paper, because it was built by illegal immigrants who attended the monkey-see-monkey-do school of homebuilding.

It's election time. Keep voting for Reaganomics and you'll continue to get a Congress that under-funds trade schools, the Secret Service, the CDC, et al. It will just be business as usual. Like the late, great George Carlin once said, the only thing this country produces is BS, grade-A, prime American BS.


----------



## kfc510

SmallTownGuy said:


> Fact is, "licensed, insured and vetted contractors" is in itself, only a 40 year old (+/-) phenomenon in the residential market.


I don't know your exact definition of "licensed, insured and vetted", but CSLB has been around for 85 years or so.

"The Contractors State License Board (CSLB) was established in 1929 as the Contractors License Bureau under the Department of Professional and Vocational Standards."
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/About_Us/History_and_BackGround.aspx


----------



## TNTRenovate

nunya01 said:


> In response to the original title of this thread:
> I must have missed something. Perhaps it's regional? Here, there is no shortage. In fact, there's a glut. Every swinging d*** with a pair of pliers and a pickup truck thinks they are an electrician. If they own a hammer, they think they are a carpenter.
> 
> So my answer: I WISH there was a shortage of tradesmen around here.


If you call that tradesman I question your judgment. .


----------



## nunya01

I run a legit business. Proper training, proper licensing, insurance, workers' comp, etc... Unfortunately in this region, there are a lot of guys (we call them "hacks") that do not. They fly under the radar. It seems like they never get caught either. The reality is that people who have no business offering their services to the general public are doing so. They are competition, like it or not.
The older I get and the longer I've been around, I learned that most consumers aren't as educated as you'd think - especially concerning the construction industry. They see a pretty truck and think they are dealing with a legit outfit.
Couple that with a glut of "real" professionals, and you can understand why things are pretty stagnant around here. This area seems to lag the rest of the country by a few years, so maybe brighter days are coming (I hope :blink.


----------



## TimNJ

TNTSERVICES said:


> If you call that tradesman I question your judgment. .


 I think I would call it sarcasm


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## pmiranda

I can swing a hammer and wire an outlet, but it's not my day job so as a homeowner, I will happily give the money I earn to a contractor that can do a good job. If I knew I'd get quality work from a crew that's reliable because they make a good wage, have health care, and have up to date training, I'll happily pay the GC markup because I know it's going to something valuable. 
I'm probably in the minority, but if you want customers like me, you need a Trade Association to get out in front of the problem, promote members that care about their product and their people, and make it easy to know who isn't a fly-by-night undercutter. Get all the HGTV shows to plug your TA. The BBB doesn't really police quality, only blatant ripoffs.
To quote my wife "I'm not expecting Norm Abram, but at least that Riley guy that used to work with Bob Vila".


----------



## TNTRenovate

TimNJ said:


> I think I would call it sarcasm


That's how I meant it.:thumbsup:


----------



## 91782

kfc510 said:


> I don't know your exact definition of "licensed, insured and vetted", but CSLB has been around for 85 years or so.
> 
> "The Contractors State License Board (CSLB) was established in 1929 as the Contractors License Bureau under the Department of Professional and Vocational Standards."
> http://www.cslb.ca.gov/About_Us/History_and_BackGround.aspx


http://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-35299_61343_35414_60647_35455---,00.html

"Residential Builders and Maintenance & Alteration Contractors Article 24 of Public Act 299 of 1980, as amended was created to license and regulate persons engaged in the construction of a residential structure or combination residential and commercial structure, or persons who undertake the repair, alteration, addition, subtraction or improvement of a residential structure or combination residential and commercial structure for compensation other than wages for personal labor. "


----------



## WBailey1041

texasinspector said:


> Here are the reasons, as I see them, for a shortage of skilled tradesmen: 1. The universities have sold everyone on the idea that one must have a college degree to be anything but a schmuck. That is why we have over-educated morons bagging groceries and mopping floors. 2. The builders do not want to pay the salaries that trade school-educated tradesmen would demand. 3. Open shop states like mine don't want unions overseeing the crap that passes for craftsmanship in their territories. 4. The chief tenant of one of the political parties (I'll let you decide which one) teaches that you can convince poor people that, if they give what little money they have to the rich people, they too will become rich. And sadly, many Americans believe this. It is the only country in the world where one can buy a Korean car for under $15K replete with a 10-year/100K mile warranty, backed by federal and state lemon laws, and can spend >$1,000,000 on a new house only to get a "warranty" that has the value of a roll of toilet paper, because it was built by illegal immigrants who attended the monkey-see-monkey-do school of homebuilding. It's election time. Keep voting for Reaganomics and you'll continue to get a Congress that under-funds trade schools, the Secret Service, the CDC, et al. It will just be business as usual. Like the late, great George Carlin once said, the only thing this country produces is BS, grade-A, prime American BS.


 I don't want to derail this thread again but I gotta throw this out there The four pillars of Reagan's economic policy were to reduce the growth of government spending, reduce the federal income tax and capital gains tax, reduce government regulation, and tighten the inmoney supply in order to reduce inflation.

Link http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics

Surely you don't oppose that do you?


----------



## asgoodasdead

nunya01 said:


> In response to the original title of this thread:
> I must have missed something. Perhaps it's regional? Here, there is no shortage. In fact, there's a glut. Every swinging d*** with a pair of pliers and a pickup truck thinks they are an electrician. If they own a hammer, they think they are a carpenter.
> 
> So my answer: I WISH there was a shortage of tradesmen around here.


the problem isn't that there aren't enough 'contractors'. if anything, there's way too many. but trying to find competent employees is a nightmare.


----------



## ScipioAfricanus

texasinspector said:


> Here are the reasons, as I see them, for a shortage of skilled tradesmen:
> 
> 1. The universities have sold everyone on the idea that one must have a college degree to be anything but a schmuck. That is why we have over-educated morons bagging groceries and mopping floors.
> 
> 2. The builders do not want to pay the salaries that trade school-educated tradesmen would demand.
> 
> 3. Open shop states like mine don't want unions overseeing the crap that passes for craftsmanship in their territories.
> 
> 4. The chief tenant of one of the political parties (I'll let you decide which one) teaches that you can convince poor people that, if they give what little money they have to the rich people, they too will become rich. And sadly, many Americans believe this. It is the only country in the world where one can buy a Korean car for under $15K replete with a 10-year/100K mile warranty, backed by federal and state lemon laws, and can spend >$1,000,000 on a new house only to get a "warranty" that has the value of a roll of toilet paper, because it was built by illegal immigrants who attended the monkey-see-monkey-do school of homebuilding.
> 
> It's election time. Keep voting for Reaganomics and you'll continue to get a Congress that under-funds trade schools, the Secret Service, the CDC, et al. It will just be business as usual. Like the late, great George Carlin once said, the only thing this country produces is BS, grade-A, prime American BS.


Except for the very first sentence of the first bullet point I find nothing else I can agree with in this little diatribe.

Andy.


----------



## Texas Wax

Having any political party 'fund' / support trade schools is not going to change the motivation of people to attend them, yet alone work in a trade.

All political parties should be drawing attention to how important the trades are and how rewarding working in them can be. But coming from college grads (politicians), what would you expect from someone who likely never got their hands dirty. :laughing: Well amybe dirty money dirty.


----------



## masterofall

How about because the pay sucks for one. I was making $25/Hr in Toronto in 1988 working for Hong Kong immigrants who loved my work. In the city where I work now, Kelowna BC, people think that's all a carpenter is worth today. You should see the crap that gets built here. It really is laughable. I know a designer that hires idiots to build six million dollar homes complete with out of plumb walls and out of level floors. The idea of pulling a string to straighten a wall has not entered their realm of building skills. 
An Australian carpenter commands $60/hr. They laugh at our wages and only come here to ski in the winter.
Low skills in a field that gets no respect and an ability to swing a hammer makes someone an expert. Lets here it for the lowest incompetent bidder.
Glad I can build because being able to build my own house means I will never get stuck with the crap that passes for good enough. Lets here it for garbage frames and poor insulation along with granite counter tops. That is high end in a real estate Agents delusional perception.


----------



## DreamcatcherDB

*Statistics and Reason*

Reading through this rather long list of posts, I see two major themes:

1. Young people today are lazy
2. Schools today push kids towards college

I am not a young person but I can tell you for sure that young people today are not any more lazy than you were at their age. Your parents/grandparents said you and your generation was lazy. It's a reoccurring dogma of "I don't fully understand these people so they must be no good". Get over it people; if it means that much to you then go find a young person and mentor them. There's some 'hard work' for you. Otherwise stop complaining.

Statistically going to college will offer the ability for a net lifetime gain of well over $1million. Also statistically, having time and ability to attend college is easier at a young age before you are burdened by wife/children/car payment/mortgate/etc. obligations. Logically then going from learning the trades to going to college would be much more difficult than going to college then learning the trades. So, why wouldn't schools push kids towards college? Yeah we all know college is expensive and there is a general thought that "college isn't for everyone". But if kids don't try then they'd never know for sure. Worst if they try and don't like it they drop out and work in the trades. Best is they try, find an area of study they like but previously never knew existed and graduate to make $millions more than if they had just jumped into blue collar trades.


----------



## Jeremiah2911

TNTSERVICES said:


> Conversations evolve, it's a fact of life. I doubt in real like your conversations stay on topic, but the topics morph and turn into other discussions. A forum is not separate or immune from real life.
> 
> You will learn a lot even from the pissing contests, hell that's were most of the good information is at. That's were the passion is at, the fire that drives knowledge. Most of my better relationships on here are from guys that I have gotten into some serious pissing contests with.
> 
> Fluff and playing nice all of the time is for the Oprah channel.


In real life when posed a question, I answer. I've been here on here for years, so I get it. I've been on forums for more than half my life now, yes, I am young and a woman. I've learned how to find the information that I need and I know which posters always seem to resonate with me. Like JBM, the guy knows every part of his business and the business from marketing and SEO to of course Masonry.As I said, "I" read through most threads from the first page to the last page because there are always hidden gems and nuggets between the banter and testosterone. 

And I've never watched Oprah.


----------



## Pinkape404

Stigmatization of labor relate careers. Doctor , lawyer, or accountant... I went through that until I realized I hated my life and my cubicle. .. went into exterminating. .loving life!!!!!!


----------



## 91782

DreamcatcherDB said:


> Reading through this rather long list of posts, I see two major themes:
> 
> 1. Young people today are lazy
> 2. Schools today push kids towards college
> 
> I am not a young person but I can tell you for sure that young people today are not any more lazy than you were at their age. Your parents/grandparents said you and your generation was lazy. It's a reoccurring dogma of "I don't fully understand these people so they must be no good". Get over it people; if it means that much to you then go find a young person and mentor them. There's some 'hard work' for you. Otherwise stop complaining.
> 
> Statistically going to college will offer the ability for a net lifetime gain of well over $1million. Also statistically, having time and ability to attend college is easier at a young age before you are burdened by wife/children/car payment/mortgate/etc. obligations. Logically then going from learning the trades to going to college would be much more difficult than going to college then learning the trades.* So, why wouldn't schools push kids towards college? Yeah we all know college is expensive and there is a general thought that "college isn't for everyone". *But if kids don't try then they'd never know for sure. Worst if they try and don't like it they drop out and work in the trades. Best is they try, find an area of study they like but previously never knew existed and graduate to make $millions more than if they had just jumped into blue collar trades.


In the USA, as of 2012, there are 73.5 mil under age of 18.

There are 242.5 mil 18 and older.

There are not 73.5 mil "college degree required" jobs available.

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/99-total-population-by-child-and-adult#detailed/1/any/false/36,868,867,133,38/39,40,41/416,417

In construction, the most common lumber is a 2x4 (or the modern, politically correct substitute - thanks California). And the strongest dimension piece regularly used is a 2x12.

Yet, not all lumber is cut to 2x4 at the mill, and not all lumber sold at the lumber yard is 2x12.

Get it?

Statistically, we are spending billions in government assisted loans and private debts to afford an education - THAT WILL NOT PROVIDE A NET GAIN - to millions.

IOW, we get off our lazy and judgmental arses as a nation, as companies and educators, and insist that "Education" be an elective and open-ended process. THERE IS NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL.

I also have no intention of supporting any dambed phool who wants to chortle "I'm Stupid - and proud of it", because I also know that competency in the trades is a lifelong education, both in the school, and in the workplace, and should be given respect (when said respect is earned).

PS:*We the People* used to do that. But that was "back in the day". You know, back when "All Men Are Created Equal" meant something.

OK, soapbox shoved back outta sight. Carry on.


----------



## asgoodasdead

masterofall said:


> How about because the pay sucks for one. I was making $25/Hr in Toronto in 1988 working for Hong Kong immigrants who loved my work. In the city where I work now, Kelowna BC, people think that's all a carpenter is worth today. You should see the crap that gets built here. It really is laughable. I know a designer that hires idiots to build six million dollar homes complete with out of plumb walls and out of level floors. The idea of pulling a string to straighten a wall has not entered their realm of building skills.
> An Australian carpenter commands $60/hr. They laugh at our wages and only come here to ski in the winter.
> Low skills in a field that gets no respect and an ability to swing a hammer makes someone an expert. Lets here it for the lowest incompetent bidder.
> Glad I can build because being able to build my own house means I will never get stuck with the crap that passes for good enough. Lets here it for garbage frames and poor insulation along with granite counter tops. That is high end in a real estate Agents delusional perception.


are you at all aware of the astronomical cost of living in Australia? you're not comparing apples to apples.


----------



## TimNJ

asgoodasdead said:


> are you at all aware of the astronomical cost of living in Australia? you're not comparing apples to apples.


How much more is it than the cost of living in the NYC metro area, DC metro area, etc.?


----------



## Kowboy

Youngin' said:


> There's a lot of skilled worker poaching in my area.


Youngin':

There is no such thing as "worker poaching". There is the law of supply and demand and nothing else.


----------



## BucketofSteam

Youngin' said:


> I moved to Alberta without a job lined up and as green as grass. I took on temporary work for a couple months but got on with a framer when I heard from friends he was was looking for a helper. I can only speak for carpentry related trades, I came with a BC welding ticket and shops in Alberta weren't interested.


So as long as you bring a willingness to work there's a good chance of getting work? I ask because the whole line up a job before I move isn't going well, due to money reasons.


----------



## Youngin'

Kowboy said:


> Youngin':
> 
> There is no such thing as "worker poaching". There is the law of supply and demand and nothing else.


Suppose if you want to get technical, sure. 


BucketofSteam said:


> So as long as you bring a willingness to work there's a good chance of getting work? I ask because the whole line up a job before I move isn't going well, due to money reasons.


I'd say so. It's crazy here. You could drive into any of the new developments, talk to the framers there and have a job by the afternoon. 

I came out here at 18 years old, a welding ticket and no carpentry experience. It took a while of working temp jobs to get on with a crew that was willing to train a green guy. Mind you that was 2009 and the economy was in the toilet. After that though it has been offer after offer. 

If you're thinking about moving to Alberta check the job ads on kijiji and the Canada Job Bank though I imagine you've already done that.


----------



## BucketofSteam

Youngin' said:


> Suppose if you want to get technical, sure.
> 
> I'd say so. It's crazy here. You could drive into any of the new developments, talk to the framers there and have a job by the afternoon.
> 
> I came out here at 18 years old, a welding ticket and no carpentry experience. It took a while of working temp jobs to get on with a crew that was willing to train a green guy. Mind you that was 2009 and the economy was in the toilet. After that though it has been offer after offer.
> 
> If you're thinking about moving to Alberta check the job ads on kijiji and the Canada Job Bank though I imagine you've already done that.


But you had the funds to get there didn't you? Right now my finances suck, I'm getting just enough work to keep myself ahead but not enough to do a serious move.

Something tells me I'm not the only one in this situation.


----------



## Youngin'

I had about $4000 saved up when I moved. My biggest expense was shipping my stuff at $1000.


----------



## CITY DECKS INC

Jaws said:


> Yes. I have a copy, so does my brother.
> 
> PM me your p.o.box address, I'll mail it to you. You can mail it back when you're done. That way if you like it you can buy your own copy.


What's the full title of book. Can not seem to find in amazon. Thanks. 

On my side of the world. It's difficult. I'm my 4th turn employe turnover this year. Did land as solid lead a few months ago, needs a lil more tweaking but has strong skill and great with customers. Few details here and there get overlooked but it's totally my fault after for not having enough meetings to review the jobs 100%.Were just simply overworked and trying knock down our backlog down for year end and winter.


----------



## Jaws

CITY DECKS INC said:


> What's the full title of book. Can not seem to find in amazon. Thanks.
> 
> On my side of the world. It's difficult. I'm my 4th turn employe turnover this year. Did land as solid lead a few months ago, needs a lil more tweaking but has strong skill and great with customers. Few details here and there get overlooked but it's totally my fault after for not having enough meetings to review the jobs 100%.Were just simply overworked and trying knock down our backlog down for year end and winter.


The Lead Carpenter Handbook by Tim Faller


----------



## jordan_paul

There's no tradesmen shortage, just a shortage of tradesmen willing to work for 18 bucks an hour. 

I'm a 23 year old electrician. I've got a 18 month plan to get out of the trade by my 25th birthday. They sky is the limit after that.


----------



## BamBamm5144

jordan_paul said:


> There's no tradesmen shortage, just a shortage of tradesmen willing to work for 18 bucks an hour.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a 23 year old electrician. I've got a 18 month plan to get out of the trade by my 25th birthday. They sky is the limit after that.



Yeah when I was 18 I had a 3 year plan to get out of roofing. Now 10 years later I'm still here.


----------



## apzimmermann

I'm not sure if this was mentioned or not, if it was i'm sorry to kick that horse again. Speaking from my experience, NO ONE wants to teach anybody about the trades. I have posted questions on here, asked for help, even begged and all I got was, well to put it bluntly I was told to go "F" myself, that even if I wanted to do something in the trades that I didn't have what it takes. If anyone disagrees I can post replies from earlier posts. I do want to get into the trades, I have asked if there is anything around my area, one fella said hey i'll give you a call and then all I got was cricket noises. I said okay i'll do it myself and low and behold I was told "hell no" you can't do that. So yes I do think that there is a lack in the trades, but guys ask yourself one question-have I taught anyone to pick up my hammer when i'm gone? I know that you guys will be foaming at the gums to jump all over me, its cool I can take it, see I was brought up to have thick skin and know what I can and can't do, try to make tomorrow better for myself no matter what, and to live by honor, courage and commitment, which I learned defend this country so you guys can hammer me on this post. if anyone wants to hit me in private my e-mail is [email protected]. Okay ready set go!!!!!


----------



## asgoodasdead

apzimmermann said:


> I'm not sure if this was mentioned or not, if it was i'm sorry to kick that horse again. Speaking from my experience, NO ONE wants to teach anybody about the trades. I have posted questions on here, asked for help, even begged and all I got was, well to put it bluntly I was told to go "F" myself, that even if I wanted to do something in the trades that I didn't have what it takes. If anyone disagrees I can post replies from earlier posts. I do want to get into the trades, I have asked if there is anything around my area, one fella said hey i'll give you a call and then all I got was cricket noises. I said okay i'll do it myself and low and behold I was told "hell no" you can't do that. So yes I do think that there is a lack in the trades, but guys ask yourself one question-have I taught anyone to pick up my hammer when i'm gone? I know that you guys will be foaming at the gums to jump all over me, its cool I can take it, see I was brought up to have thick skin and know what I can and can't do, try to make tomorrow better for myself no matter what, and to live by honor, courage and commitment, which I learned defend this country so you guys can hammer me on this post. if anyone wants to hit me in private my e-mail is [email protected]. Okay ready set go!!!!!


what on earth are you talking about? we train guys all the time. we're training 3 green guys right now.


----------



## apzimmermann

asgood, you are the exception, as you can see, out of all the guys on here, and as I post there were at least 6 viewing this very post, no one else has had anything to say. Please don't get me wrong, I understand that some i'll even say most of the time, the new guys are garbage and un-trainable so it makes it hard to gamble when you have a time line, but there are guys that just want to learn. As I read other posts, it seems pay is a major factor in guys wanting to work. Maybe im messed up but if someone was going to pay me $15 an hour that would up my bring home by a third.


----------



## asgoodasdead

you're right, not everyone is worth training and not every green guy is worth the same starting pay. there's been green guys we've hired at $10/hr and the guys we're training right now are getting $15-18/hr. the difference is in skill/knowledge level between these guys is zero. but the difference in work ethic and willingness to learn is night and day. so many guys out there think they're worth top pay cause they've been floating around jobsites for a number of years but despite their years of experience they're terrible carpenters and terrible employees. I'm more impressed by the new guys we have right now who are greener than goose**** than any of the guys we brought in lately who had 10-25 years experience and were lazy entitled jackasses.


----------



## Agility

apzimmermann said:


> I'm not sure if this was mentioned or not, if it was i'm sorry to kick that horse again. Speaking from my experience, NO ONE wants to teach anybody about the trades. I have posted questions on here, asked for help, even begged and all I got was, well to put it bluntly I was told to go "F" myself, that even if I wanted to do something in the trades that I didn't have what it takes. If anyone disagrees I can post replies from earlier posts. I do want to get into the trades, I have asked if there is anything around my area, one fella said hey i'll give you a call and then all I got was cricket noises. I said okay i'll do it myself and low and behold I was told "hell no" you can't do that. So yes I do think that there is a lack in the trades, but guys ask yourself one question-have I taught anyone to pick up my hammer when i'm gone? I know that you guys will be foaming at the gums to jump all over me, its cool I can take it, see I was brought up to have thick skin and know what I can and can't do, try to make tomorrow better for myself no matter what, and to live by honor, courage and commitment, which I learned defend this country so you guys can hammer me on this post. if anyone wants to hit me in private my e-mail is [email protected]. Okay ready set go!!!!!


Really? I'd like to see the quotes where people here told you to go "F" yourself for asking for help. A quick peek at some of the threads you've started shows that you have gotten some valid input. Just because you didn't get the answer you wanted when you asked a question on here doesn't mean no one was willing to help you.

I don't have employees because I don't need them, but I still take every opportunity I have to teach skills to green workers, usually employees of my subs.


----------



## Warren

I usually wont bother teaching a guy much for at least 3 months. If he is still here after that, he may be worth teaching. History has proven this to be a smart method for me. You gotta earn my respect before I waste my time, effort, and money to train you.


----------



## asgoodasdead

Warren said:


> I usually wont bother teaching a guy much for at least 3 months. If he is still here after that, he may be worth teaching. History has proven this to be a smart method for me. You gotta earn my respect before I waste my time, effort, and money to train you.


3 months is crazy. you can tell the first day if someone is worth a damn.


----------



## Andrew6127

asgoodasdead said:


> 3 months is crazy. you can tell the first day if someone is worth a damn.


Maybe, but what kind of training are we talking about? 90 days to be taught to slap walla together and shoot off a roof? Ya, that's crazy.

But if you're talking a out taking a new guy that knows nothing other than to hump lumber all day and clean up and taking him and teaching him walls, rafters, stairs, and layouts. How to actually use a speed square for more than straight lines and making him a legit framer, not crazy at all. A full blown education for 90 days of grunt work is a very fair trade IMO.


----------



## Warren

asgoodasdead said:


> 3 months is crazy. you can tell the first day if someone is worth a damn.


Not always.

I am happy to have guys who are just good laborers as long as they give a decent effort. It takes me a few months to be able to tell who the "protege's" are though. Some guys are happy with just performing manual labor. Nothing wrong with that. Some guys are smart, creative, and teachable, but can't string together extended periods of consistent effort. 

I need both the good work ethic, and the eagerness to learn. I would say that only about 1 in 5 fit this criteria. I recently lost a guy that I had put some good effort into. Very smart, creative, and seemed to be getting his after work life on track. I could feel him slipping away at the end due to the after work stuff. We talked about it a few times, but ultimately, if you don't show up, it all goes downhill fast.


----------



## Tinstaafl

Warren said:


> I usually wont bother teaching a guy much for at least 3 months.


That would be a foot-shooter if it was an ironclad rule. Hire a guy who's a quick learner and a self-starter, odds are that he's not going to put up with being nothing but a pack mule for three months. I know, I am one.

Uh, not-a-mule. :laughing:

I get what you mean though. The guy has to show serious promise.


----------



## kfc510

asgoodasdead said:


> you're right, not everyone is worth training and not every green guy is worth the same starting pay. there's been green guys we've hired at $10/hr and the guys we're training right now are getting $15-18/hr.


Is $15/Hr. enough to live on in NJ?

(Serious question-I realize the bay area is so expensive my concept of money is very distorted. But that is what illegal day laborers get out here...)


----------



## TimNJ

I think there are a lot of contractors right now who are working on razor thin margins.
They take on work based on the most efficient scenario.
As soon as one hiccup comes along there goes their profit margins.

When you are doing jobs under those conditions you can't afford to have a new hire that will take some hand holding.

It takes some time even if you hire a guy who is fully capable of hitting the ground running. Employees have to "get to know each other" before they can really hit their stride as a crew that can crank out the work.

I have always thought that contractors should follow something along the lines of "book rate" that auto mechanics use when pricing jobs.


----------



## TimNJ

apzimmermann said:


> and as I post there were at least 6 viewing this very post, no one else has had anything to say.




Don't base that on anything.
I always get up from my computer and just leave it on.
This page may show me as viewing it, but actually I'm on a job 20 miles away.


----------



## 91782

*LUZER TALK:*


apzimmermann said:


> I know that you guys will be foaming at the gums to jump all over me, its cool I can take it, see I was brought up to have thick skin and know what I can and can't do, try to make tomorrow better for myself no matter what, and to live by honor, courage and commitment, which I learned defend this country so you guys can hammer me on this post.


*WINNER ACTION:*

Day 1
I will show up to work on time, every time.
I will not have excuses for missing work, because I will not miss work.
I will bust my arse to learn and do things YOUR way.
I will make work my first priority.
I will dress and act in a way that reflects your business in a good light.
Here is the ph# of my last employer/teacher/neighbor/parent.

Day 2
I will show up to work on time, every time.
I will not have excuses for missing work, because I will not miss work.
I will bust my arse to learn and do things YOUR way.
I will make work my first priority.
I will dress and act in a way that reflects your business in a good light.
Here is the ph#/email of my last employer/teacher/neighbor/parent.

Day 3
etc, etc, etc

Oh yeah, so you claim you are a self-starter. Well then buddy boy, be prepared to discuss at least SOMETHING you have done on your own - whether its mowing lawns, nailing loose boards on the neighbors shed - *anything that shows* you are more than a wind-up toy that needs constant prodding.

And another thing: You damned well better have an idea what you want to be when you grow up (carpy, saw man, layout man, lead - tile setter, painter, etc), otherwise it's gonna be real hard to tell you from the other "need 50 bucks to keep from being evicted" types.

And one last thing: Do NOT tell me about those other LUZER outfits you applied to/worked 3 days for (insert cry me a river song). It offends me that you cannot tells the difference between a quality outfit (like mine) and those hoser, cutthroat, hacks that pop in and out of the universe like quarks.


----------



## Tom M

Younger guys don't buy into learn a trade or go to college like they used to. They see it a a dead end. They also civil servants set for life then dabbling in construction for extra money. Why beat a dead horse with this..... benefits, guaranteed income for putting a certain number of years or...... The trade has become a national pastime.


----------



## 91782

Tom M said:


> Younger guys don't buy into learn a trade or go to college like they used to. They see it a a dead end. *They also civil servants set for life then dabbling in construction for extra money. Why beat a dead horse with this..... benefits, guaranteed income for putting a certain number of years or...... The trade has become a national pastime*.


I did that. I scabbed for awhile starting out. Was working for a commercial outfit. Boss says sorry, price of studs is killing us - we won't have work thru the winter. Hope you & new bride have a Plan B.

Went to work full time for the county at our airports. Hung grid ceilings after hours/weekends.

Took my GED. Went to community college. Attended a Builders class. 
Got my license and - FLEW! BABY! FLEW! the fvck outta there.

(spits) Still brings up a bad taste in my mouth.


----------



## NJGC

Please post up the areas that have a shortage! I would love to leave liberal hell (NJ) and fill the demand. Way.....way to many idiots here that think they are contractors and frankly I've had about all I can stand of this dreadful state. 

Ready to set up shop anywhere but here.


----------



## asgoodasdead

NJGC said:


> Please post up the areas that have a shortage! I would love to leave liberal hell (NJ) and fill the demand. Way.....way to many idiots here that think they are contractors and frankly I've had about all I can stand of this dreadful state.
> 
> Ready to set up shop anywhere but here.


this thread isn't about a shortage of contractors. it's about the shortage of WORKERS. I live in NJ as well. there's 10 billion contractors and it's impossible to find good employees. I'm starting my apprenticeship with the carpenter's local on Monday. they were foaming at the mouth when I told them I'm coming in with 5 years experience and I'm not some 20 year old ****head who's gonna blow off work to go down the shore with my friends. and that I'm willing to drive an hour+ for jobs. and have a license. and car. and can pass a drug test.


----------



## Kowboy

agad:

The title of this thread is a false premise. There is no shortage of tradespersons. None. It is mythical. Nor is there a lack of work ethic among the young; another lie. 

What is not mythical is the low pay, the cyclical nature of the work, the lack of benefits, and the lack of social status for tradespersons. 

When your lead man knocks up your daughter and it's a good thing because your son-in-law-to-be has a job with pay and benefits that put them comfortably in the middle class, this myth will finally be put to rest.


----------



## tenon0774

Kowboy said:


> agad:
> 
> The title of this thread is a false premise. There is no shortage of tradespersons. None. It is mythical. Nor is there a lack of work ethic among the young; another lie.
> 
> What is not mythical is the low pay, the cyclical nature of the work, the lack of benefits, and the lack of social status for tradespersons.
> 
> When your lead man knocks up your daughter and it's a good thing because your son-in-law-to-be has a job with pay and benefits that put them comfortably in the middle class, this myth will finally be put to rest.


I respectfully disagree with this statement.

Being a hard knocks student of the trades, there are tasks you assign to the "next generation" and they b$tch and moan their way through them.

This is my first hand experience.

Now, that also means that I need to go through a few more "apprentice" candidates.

I can say, with some experience;

Next generation is less motivated, even with the "boss" being in the ditch, digging right beside them.


----------



## asgoodasdead

Kowboy said:


> agad:
> 
> The title of this thread is a false premise. There is no shortage of tradespersons. None. It is mythical. Nor is there a lack of work ethic among the young; another lie.
> 
> What is not mythical is the low pay, the cyclical nature of the work, the lack of benefits, and the lack of social status for tradespersons.
> 
> When your lead man knocks up your daughter and it's a good thing because your son-in-law-to-be has a job with pay and benefits that put them comfortably in the middle class, this myth will finally be put to rest.


I have an ad up on craigslist all year that I renew every month. 9/10 guys that reply to the ad are over the age of 40. 1 in 20 are under the age of 30. and lately I get about 5 replies per month total. when I do, it's usually a green guy who wants $25/hr or someone with experience who wants $35/hr. had a guy with next to no experience the other day who wanted $30/hr plus paid rain days.


----------



## Agility

tenon0774 said:


> I respectfully disagree with this statement. Being a hard knocks student of the trades, there are tasks you assign to the "next generation" and they b$tch and moan their way through them. This is my first hand experience. Now, that also means that I need to go through a few more "apprentice" candidates. I can say, with some experience; Next generation is less motivated, even with the "boss" being in the ditch, digging right beside them.


I imagine the generation that came before you said the very same thing. 

It's not generational, it's poor parenting and poor job placement. It's not the kids' fault they think life should be easy, they've been taught by their parents (and perhaps teachers) to expect things to be given to them, for anything to be available at the touch of a button. 

I'm part of this "next generation", though barely. Coming up in the trades I worked my ass off doing things that the old timers complained about, things they refused to do because it was below them or because it was too hard or too heavy or too high. It earned me a killer reputation and helped a lot when I struck out on my own a few years ago. 

Don't most of our clients fit the profile of lazy and entitled? You sure as hell won't find them digging a ditch. Not wanting to do crappy manual labor tasks doesn't mean a person is lazy, it means they need to find another way to make money.


----------



## asgoodasdead

and out of the countless amount of guys we try to bring in, most of them no-call no-show and the ones who do come in have terrible attitudes terrible work ethic and aren't half as good as they claim they are. it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack.


----------



## Jaws

Agility said:


> I imagine the generation that came before you said the very same thing.
> 
> It's not generational, it's poor parenting and poor job placement. It's not the kids' fault they think life should be easy, they've been taught by their parents (and perhaps teachers) to expect things to be given to them, for anything to be available at the touch of a button.
> 
> I'm part of this "next generation", though barely. Coming up in the trades I worked my ass off doing things that the old timers complained about, things they refused to do because it was below them or because it was too hard or too heavy or too high. It earned me a killer reputation and helped a lot when I struck out on my own a few years ago.
> 
> Don't most of our clients fit the profile of lazy and entitled? You sure as hell won't find them digging a ditch. Not wanting to do crappy manual labor tasks doesn't mean a person is lazy, it means they need to find another way to make money.


I agree other than the clients thing. Most of my clients do not seem lazy, just dont work physically for a living. 

If a young adult would rather work at Whataburger than in the trades, thats fine with me. But I detest when I hear them whine about not making enough money.


----------



## Agility

Jaws said:


> I agree other than the clients thing. Most of my clients do not seem lazy, just dont work physically for a living. If a young adult would rather work at Whataburger than in the trades, thats fine with me. But I detest when I hear them whine about not making enough money.


I was trying to say the same thing. My clients aren't lazy either, but they'd be as useless to me as the kid who would otherwise work at Whataburger.


----------



## tenon0774

Agility said:


> I imagine the generation that came before you said the very same thing.
> 
> It's not generational, it's poor parenting and poor job placement. It's not the kids' fault they think life should be easy, they've been taught by their parents (and perhaps teachers) to expect things to be given to them, for anything to be available at the touch of a button.
> 
> I'm part of this "next generation", though barely. Coming up in the trades I worked my ass off doing things that the old timers complained about, things they refused to do because it was below them or because it was too hard or too heavy or too high. It earned me a killer reputation and helped a lot when I struck out on my own a few years ago.
> 
> Don't most of our clients fit the profile of lazy and entitled? You sure as hell won't find them digging a ditch. Not wanting to do crappy manual labor tasks doesn't mean a person is lazy, it means they need to find another way to make money.


Good point, however;

We are not talking about our clients.

There is a reason why clients hire us to do this work.

One client of mine once quipped, (about another contractor he hired);

"I don't want to hear about how hard it is!
I know it's hard! That's why I'm not doing it. That's why I hired you to do the f$&kin job!"

I worked for that client for 7 years after that.

The clientele is out there. 

We are talking about the "pool of unskilled" labor that graces our thresholds looking for work:

...without this gumption and motivation.

If you "want" to get into the trades, now:

You can fall bass ackwards into it and expect the money to come to you.

Like John said:

Gotta pay your dues.

Nowadays that means doing what you're told and STFU!

Good companies and leads will give you trade experience and space to problem solve on your own, but not without a track record of attendance and willingness to do the mindless chit.

If you don't like the situation you find yourself in?

Change it!


----------



## TNTRenovate

Kowboy said:


> agad:
> 
> The title of this thread is a false premise. There is no shortage of tradespersons. None. It is mythical. Nor is there a lack of work ethic among the young; another lie.


Can you elaborate? Or at least provide a source for your opinion other than what ever Kowboy thinks is reality.


----------



## tenon0774

You can't, however;

Put the cart before the horse.

Learn the trade. 

However you can.

Reading, side jobs, trial and error...

THIS is what will make you stand out in the company and, therefore;

Make the leads take notice and will eventually get you assigned more responsibility from the leads.

"you gotta learn to crawl before you can walk."


----------



## tenon0774

TNTSERVICES said:


> Can you elaborate? Or at least provide a source for your opinion other than what ever Kowboy thinks is reality.


I think he did.


----------



## tenon0774

Kowboy said:


> agad:
> 
> 
> When your lead man knocks up your daughter and it's a good thing because your son-in-law-to-be has a job with pay and benefits that put them comfortably in the middle class, this myth will finally be put to rest.



...but no way, no how;

...was I gonna touch this.


----------



## Jaws

tenon0774 said:


> ...but no way, no how;
> 
> ...was I gonna touch this.


Its a dumb example. 

1)Most lead men make good money in my experience

2) no father will be happy his daughter is knocked up no matter who did it. CEO of Exxon or my lead man, my preference would be to beat them severely with a chain. 

I suggest you raise your daughter to try and be smarter than to get knocked up, or your sons to not knock girls up. Its not that difficult. ...


----------



## Jaws

I promise you, if a young person is :

A- not a wuss

B- a hard worker who does his/her job without complaining

They will not have an issue getting a job as a laborer on a crew right now unless they live in a terribly depressed area. 

If they :

A- are reasonably intelligent

B- ask questions at the right times and shut up when its not the right time

C- have some ambition and buy tools and read 

D- work hard

They will progress quickly. If not with one employer, another would love to have them


----------



## tenon0774

apzimmermann said:


> Again i'll ask why you guys are so hung up on the wage thing?? Never and I mean NEVER did I say anything about that. And Smalltownguy, you play the example so well to what i'm talking about. Old gruff guy, out there me tarzan you jane, my way or i'll piss myself and go back to the adult home and complain about the youngins on my yard. Get over yourself, its pathetic. Myself, I am out there looking, reading, questioning, trying to get all the knowledge I can. I do side jobs, ask a youngster to help you with this new fangled technology called a computer and look at my previous posts and you will see that I wanted to get experience so I came here to the "HOLY" grail of all that's construction and was told to not worry about it. SO I went and got tools, I even asked what ones I should buy to which again I got too bad for you. I did get some good advice which I took and ran with. I have worked side jobs all summer, but while I was doing that I was trying to get on a crew to maybe just maybe learn from those that did it before me.


Old gruff guy?

Even if that wasn't directed at me...

There has been some good advise in this thread.

Yes, you have to read through the sarcasm.

There is another thread a noob started about what carpentry books to read, just recently.

Read that thread!

It's not about the tools or even self proclaimed experience.

It's about taking the knowledge and self confidence to the open market.

Big difference!

It seems, as I read your posts, you're trying to "effort" a short cut.

There isn't one.

Hard work and perseverance pay off.

You haven't made the "jump" in 10 years of work:

Why don't you speak to that instead of blasting veteran members of this forum?

We can help.


----------



## Andrew6127

apzimmermann said:


> Again i'll ask why you guys are so hung up on the wage thing?? Never and I mean NEVER did I say anything about that. And Smalltownguy, you play the example so well to what i'm talking about. Old gruff guy, out there me tarzan you jane, my way or i'll piss myself and go back to the adult home and complain about the youngins on my yard. Get over yourself, its pathetic. Myself, I am out there looking, reading, questioning, trying to get all the knowledge I can. I do side jobs, ask a youngster to help you with this new fangled technology called a computer and look at my previous posts and you will see that I wanted to get experience so I came here to the "HOLY" grail of all that's construction and was told to not worry about it. SO I went and got tools, I even asked what ones I should buy to which again I got too bad for you. I did get some good advice which I took and ran with. I have worked side jobs all summer, but while I was doing that I was trying to get on a crew to maybe just maybe learn from those that did it before me.


Smalltown is actually a pretty nice straight forward guy. 

From him I got information on trade schools, getting insurance, getting a dba, how to look for work without CL, and all I did was send him a PM and ask.


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## apzimmermann

Aw so it shows that the old guys ARE scared that the young guys are going to take their spot. Its funny I don't even need to give examples, you old guys do it for me. Keep sitting around the coffee maker complaining about how life was in yester-year. You are old, you no longer matter, get outta the way, its because of people like you that don't have the sense to go to the home that no one gets trained. All you should be worried about is who is going to hold your lap blanket while you go to the bathroom 30 times an hour. Wait why are you guys even online, isn't Saturday bingo night at the lodge? Finish your early bird special, pack the car and head south.


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## apzimmermann

Okay, I apologize for taking things to far. Yes there is great info on this forum, and great people. In my area, Rochester NY, there isn't anyone that will give someone that is hardworking, that asks questions at the right time, puts his head down and works a chance. Its just the facts. Again I have posted on here asking for help because you all say that help can be found here and I get ridiculed. It just seems that you all don't want to give a chance either.


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## tenon0774

apzimmermann said:


> Aw so it shows that the old guys ARE scared that the young guys are going to take their spot. Its funny I don't even need to give examples, you old guys do it for me. Keep sitting around the coffee maker complaining about how life was in yester-year. You are old, you no longer matter, get outta the way, its because of people like you that don't have the sense to go to the home that no one gets trained. All you should be worried about is who is going to hold your lap blanket while you go to the bathroom 30 times an hour. Wait why are you guys even online, isn't Saturday bingo night at the lodge? Finish your early bird special, pack the car and head south.


No!

Wanna know why "us old guys" won't disseminate info to "you"?

Attitude!

Cool man!

You got it. Run that "big wheel" down the hill, all by yourself!


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## Agility

apzimmermann said:


> SO I went and got tools, I even asked what ones I should buy to which again I got too bad for you.


That didn't happen. I just read that thread. Why are you so intent on badmouthing the advice you're getting on this forum? You did admit to getting good information, and have admitted that in at least a few of the threads you have started. What more do you want from this forum?

Did you see the links I posted regarding vocational training in your area? Obviously I can't speak to the quality of education in any of the programs I linked to, but it does look like there are some options for education in the trades in your area. Whether or not your interested in the programs available is a different issue.


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## Jaws

apzimmermann said:


> Aw so it shows that the old guys ARE scared that the young guys are going to take their spot. Its funny I don't even need to give examples, you old guys do it for me. Keep sitting around the coffee maker complaining about how life was in yester-year. You are old, you no longer matter, get outta the way, its because of people like you that don't have the sense to go to the home that no one gets trained. All you should be worried about is who is going to hold your lap blanket while you go to the bathroom 30 times an hour. Wait whniy are you guys even online, isn't Saturday bingo night at the lodge? Finish your early bird special, pack the car and head south.


Im 31. Not an old guy yet.

I went into the trades full time when I was 17, right out of high school. In the 9 1/2 years I worked for other contractors I never went without work. I progressed quickly by doing what I said above, and had to start over with a new boss more than once. Worked every time. 

As a contractor the person I described is who I am looking to hire when hiring.


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## tenon0774

apzimmermann said:


> Okay, I apologize for taking things to far. Yes there is great info on this forum, and great people. In my area, Rochester NY, there isn't anyone that will give someone that is hardworking, that asks questions at the right time, puts his head down and works a chance. Its just the facts. Again I have posted on here asking for help because you all say that help can be found here and I get ridiculed. It just seems that you all don't want to give a chance either.


Not True!

You have to read what was posted earlier and be able to talk about it, without placing blame.


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## Jaws

Andrew6127 said:


> Smalltown is actually a pretty nice straight forward guy.
> 
> From him I got information on trade schools, getting insurance, getting a dba, how to look for work without CL, and all I did was send him a PM and ask.


Exactly


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## Warren

APZ:

Check that attitude before you try to join a crew. I went back and read the 5 posts that you started. You got some good advice in all of them. Taking your lumps is part of the learning/maturing process. We have all been through it, and continue to take our lumps from time to time. Good luck.


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## asgoodasdead

kfc510 said:


> And in any case, the Builder article still points out that the average construction salary is not going up.
> http://www.builderonline.com/builder-100/people/construction-salaries-remain-flat_o
> 
> If there were truly a shortage of workers, then wages should go up. They aren't. What's your explanation for that?


the wages are what contractors can afford to pay based on what homeowners are able/willing to pay for the work. you're a general contractor, and you don't know this?


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## WBailey1041

asgoodasdead said:


> the wages are what contractors can afford to pay based on what homeowners are able/willing to pay for the work. you're a general contractor, and you don't know this?


That's nonsense


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## WBailey1041

Jaws said:


> Im 31. Not an old guy yet. I went into the trades full time when I was 17, right out of high school. In the 9 1/2 years I worked for other contractors I never went without work. I progressed quickly by doing what I said above, and had to start over with a new boss more than once. Worked every time. As a contractor the person I described is who I am looking to hire when hiring.


 I'm 31 as well. 




apzimmermann said:


> Aw so it shows that the old guys ARE scared that the young guys are going to take their spot. Its funny I don't even need to give examples, you old guys do it for me. Keep sitting around the coffee maker complaining about how life was in yester-year. You are old, you no longer matter, get outta the way, its because of people like you that don't have the sense to go to the home that no one gets trained. All you should be worried about is who is going to hold your lap blanket while you go to the bathroom 30 times an hour. Wait why are you guys even online, isn't Saturday bingo night at the lodge? Finish your early bird special, pack the car and head south.


I'll hire you first thing Monday morning. You won't run that mouth so much I bet. BINGO, gotta go


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## kfc510

asgoodasdead said:


> the wages are what contractors can afford to pay based on what homeowners are able/willing to pay for the work. you're a general contractor, and you don't know this?


The laws of supply and demand say that when there is a shortage of something relative to the demand for that thing; the cost of it will rise.

It's capitalism 101. You don't know this?


And this thread is about an alleged shortage of tradesmen relative to the demand for them. Yet the cost of tradesmen is not going up.

The premise is faulty.


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## 91782

WBailey1041 said:


> I'm 31 as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll hire you first thing Monday morning. You won't run that mouth so much I bet. BINGO, gotta go


Shazaam!:laughing:


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## 91782

Andrew6127 said:


> Smalltown is actually a pretty nice straight forward guy.
> 
> From him I got information on trade schools, getting insurance, getting a dba, how to look for work without CL, and all I did was send him a PM and ask.


Yup. For my part, actually had to do a little legwork.

Was happy to. You had then, have now, and some day others will say also "A winner attitude".

I only place bets on winners.

I can spot a winner a mile away because, well you know, I'm a crusty old fart, stinking of pee.:jester:


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## apzimmermann

Oh wow an internet tough guy, wow didn't think i'd see one of those. Bailey keep cleaning the gutters. To you others, tell me other than my piss poor attitude what will make me more "hire-able"?


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## apzimmermann

Smalltown I hereby say that I am sorry.


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## apzimmermann

Again tell me what is needed and I will take that and run, if you guys say it works im all about it.


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## fjn

Here is an article I found interesting that touches on several aspects of this thread.


The title is Want to hire and retain good employees ? Pay Up.

It also discusses the labor shortage.


http://www.remodeling.hw.net/business/leadership/want-to-hire-and-retain-good-workers-pay-up_o


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## kfc510

fjn said:


> Here is an article I found interesting that touches on several aspects of this thread.
> 
> 
> The title is Want to hire and retain good employees ? Pay Up.
> 
> It also discusses the labor shortage.
> 
> 
> http://www.remodeling.hw.net/business/leadership/want-to-hire-and-retain-good-workers-pay-up_o


I also read this article, and found parts of it interesting, but I am continually struck by the contradiction between the pronouncement of the labor shortage as a matter of fact and the actual stats that fail to back up that idea.

From the article:
"In fact, 49% of remodelers rated no higher than six on a 10-point scale when asked to rate their confidence in finding workers,"

So, that means 51% of remodelers rate their confidence of finding workers at a 7 (out of 10) or higher. Of the other 49%, some put their chances at a 6, and some put it at 5. This is a crisis? I don't see it.

The article clarifies:

"Meanwhile, the share of builders reporting serious labor shortages shot up between 2012 and 2014 to 15% from 5% for framing crews and to 12% from 4% for finish carpenters, according to the NAHB."

15% of builders report "serious" shortages for framers. 85% don't see "serious" shortages. In a normally functioning free-market economy, wages would rise sharply in the areas with serious shortages, and people from the other 85% of the country would move to those areas to fill the need. But that apparently isn't happening.

Also, it is important to note that these are all self-reported takes on the situation. The plural of anecdote is not data.


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## Tom M

I think the whole statistic is the skewd. Here there are so many workers in the trades its watered down.

Skill comes from experience and the long term ride. We have less career tradesman and more fill in workers (a few years then leave) that harm the rest. 

Part of it is definitely the lack of respect for the proffession. These manufactured housing bubbles coupled with an abundance of immigrant labor have kept wages way lower than they should be. (less reward for the effort) 
On the other hand I know more well journeyed guys who left the trades for than entered because of these reasons.


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## asgoodasdead

Tom M said:


> I think the whole statistic is the skewd. Here there are so many workers in the trades its watered down.


really? Cause we can't find anyone. I run an ad on craigslist year round and I don't get many responses. the responses I do get are a joke. if you know any framers looking for work message me their names and numbers. all of our work is in north jersey. a lot in bergen.


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## Tinstaafl

The thread's unproven title refers to a shortage of tradesmen, not a shortage of skilled and competent tradesmen. Big difference. :thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate

Tinstaafl said:


> The thread's unproven title refers to a shortage of tradesmen, not a shortage of skilled and competent tradesmen. Big difference. :thumbsup:


The word tradesmen is all that is needed. It means working in a field that requires a special skill or training. You cannot be called a tradesmen without the skill or training.


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## Tinstaafl

Perhaps I should have qualified that with "higher than beginner-level" skills.


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## TNTRenovate

Tinstaafl said:


> Perhaps I should have qualified that with "higher than beginner-level" skills.


Then they wouldn't be true tradesmen yet. If they don't have the required skill set and training, they are not tradesmen. Like I said, there is nothing wrong with the title of the thread, tradesmen has a very specific meaning, or at least it should retain it's original meaning and not morph into what every Tom, Dick and Harry with a tool belt call themselves to impress there clients.

Anyone can call themselves a tradesmen, but hardly any truly are.


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## asgoodasdead

fjn said:


> Here is an article I found interesting that touches on several aspects of this thread.
> 
> 
> The title is Want to hire and retain good employees ? Pay Up.
> 
> It also discusses the labor shortage.
> 
> 
> http://www.remodeling.hw.net/business/leadership/want-to-hire-and-retain-good-workers-pay-up_o


I also love how this article makes giving all of your employees huge raises is such an easy solution that anyone can do. there's a lot of work around here right now but sq. ft. numbers and margins are still very low. your payroll goes up and then so does your price and you lose all your bids.


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## Kowboy

The employee in the article screwed up. After confirming the other job offer, he should have told his employer he was getting a $2.00 an hour raise or he would quit.

Makes me think he was quitting for other reasons.


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## asgoodasdead

Kowboy said:


> The employee in the article screwed up. After confirming the other job offer, he should have told his employer he was getting a $2.00 an hour raise or he would quit.
> 
> Makes me think he was quitting for other reasons.


yeah, who jumps ship for $1/hr? total bull****


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## kfc510

asgoodasdead said:


> I also love how this article makes giving all of your employees huge raises is such an easy solution that anyone can do. there's a lot of work around here right now but sq. ft. numbers and margins are still very low. your payroll goes up and then so does your price and you lose all your bids.


That's the thing though- if there really is a tight labor market, _everyone's_ labor costs will go up, and owners will just pay more or decide not to do the work (and if they decide not to do the work, that reduces the demand for labor, correcting the supply/demand imbalance of labor).

The problem is that some builders are able to keep their labor costs low despite the alleged "serious shortage" of labor.

This is really basic free market stuff. If the supply of something is inadequate to meet the demand for that thing, then the price of that thing will rise, whether it's widgets or framers or copper tubing or whatever. 

As the price of the widget rises, more people will decide to go into the widget business (increasing supply), and also some people will decide they can't afford widgets (reducing demand).

If builders are still undercutting your prices then there's something else going on with the labor market that is perverting the basic supply/demand laws.


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## asgoodasdead

kfc510 said:


> That's the thing though- if there really is a tight labor market, _everyone's_ labor costs will go up, and owners will just pay more or decide not to do the work (and if they decide not to do the work, that reduces the demand for labor, correcting the supply/demand imbalance of labor).
> 
> The problem is that some builders are able to keep their labor costs low despite the alleged "serious shortage" of labor.
> 
> This is really basic free market stuff. If the supply of something is inadequate to meet the demand for that thing, then the price of that thing will rise, whether it's widgets or framers or copper tubing or whatever.
> 
> As the price of the widget rises, more people will decide to go into the widget business (increasing supply), and also some people will decide they can't afford widgets (reducing demand).
> 
> If builders are still undercutting your prices then there's something else going on with the labor market that is perverting the basic supply/demand laws.


the undercutters are off the books. they don't have WC or liability and their entire payroll is cash. so they're not figured into the equation in that article.


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## nunya01

Meth be not proud. I call them crackhead contractors. 
They are either lone gunmen or they 1099 all their guys at ridiculously low rates. They've got no overhead. No licenses. No insurance. Their only operating cost is a cell phone. They run their whole operation from their leased pickup truck in Home Depot parking lot.
They come in and bid the job ridiculously low. They buy some of the materials, show up on the job, and beat around long enough to get some more money out of the customer. Once they get a few grand in their pocket, you may or may not see them again.


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## Tom M

When I was growing up I worked as a laborer for dad or some of his contractor friends. We did a lot of dormers people wanted to expand their living area as they grew a family. That kind of evolved into add a levels. People started weighing the costs and decide return value was bigger. When low interest rates came in play that type of work became was even more frequent and dormer became phased out.
Welcome to the bubble. 
It was no longer about space for their growing family as much as it was SFcost verse return potential. When I was starting out these 800 sf capes sold for 160k and an add a level could be built for 80k. So you could sell for $300k with a 240k investment. Woo hoo. Now the homes start at 350 and add a levels tend to cost $150 and up so the sell price verse cost has escalated alot. Only no one is making more money at thier jobs. 
It has even evolved further here as people have reduced remodeling more with the notion of it being pointless.

Now an overwhelming number of people will say "we will never get that money back" or "we don't plan on being here that long". "Some builder will just knock it down and build new". So we now have a big rental market as investors are doing just that, knocking down these homes and popping up new 2 families. 
Fine by city officials they need that bigger tax revenue. But between the cost to buy, build and then tax the only place to keep it affordable is cheaper labor. So none of these scenarios support the "best effort"---"best skilled" basically when it went from a long term investment to a economical short term one what was acceptable construction changed with it.

I know its not like this everywhere and the money folks don't follow the same logic but I do think the big picture supported and even welcomed cheaper labor and now the cost of buying and building doesn't support paying more skilled people.


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## TimNJ

asgoodasdead said:


> yeah, who jumps ship for $1/hr? total bull****


Ugh, over 30 years ago I did just that.
I worked for the state of NJ and I went in to what would be my last job evaluation.
They gave me .30 an hr raise and said here, sign your evaluation sheet. I told them I wanted $1 hr raise.
They said no, I said I wouldn't sign the sheet, and said goodbye.


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## mikecarsy

Why Is There a Shortage of Tradesmen? 

The overwhelming honest answer to the question is "the pay is ****"


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## pappagor

there is not a shortage of tradesmen there is a shortage of those willing to pay 25 bucks or higher per hour for tradesmen


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## Tom M

The market couldnt support higher wages. How much higher do you think real estate go? Legit guys are are being driven down to the massive amount on the fly wanna bes.


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## TimNJ

mikecarsy said:


> Why Is There a Shortage of Tradesmen?
> 
> The overwhelming honest answer to the question is "the pay is ****"


Somewhere farther back in this thread I posted a link from a trade magazine that showed the average carpenter wage was around $15hr.

Just last week I was driving down the road and there on the side was one of those yard signs that Dominoe's pizza stuck in the ground looking for workers.....$10-16hr.


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