# How Do You Keep Your Best Guys From Going Out On Their Own?



## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I know some amount of that is inevitable, but you guys that are running 3 or 4 to 12+ guys, how do you hang on the them?

It's easy enough to get laborers, or single-skill guys, or guys who just aren't good enough to do it on their own, but I'm talking about you folks who have Lead Carpenters, or Supers who can run a job. 


JAWS?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

$$$

Steady work

Perks...:thumbsup:

and a decent boss...no micro-managing


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

Don't teach them a damn thing about business, they'll be back out in the field soon enough if they do leave 

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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Threatening to kill them and their entire extended families has always worked for me.

Oh, and the dog too.

But not the cat, nobody cares about the cat.

Andy.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Besides the money and the percs, etc...I think sometimes small things may make a difference....just a quick eye-to-eye...a handshake and a thank-you for a great job...goes a long way.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Guys can have all the trade skills in the world but not be able to or interested in running the business.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

1. Hire the right people
2. Have opportunities for growth/education available
3. Provide benefits (paid time off, health insurance, retirement plan, cell phone, company truck, etc...)
4. Show them you trust them and don't micromanage them
5. Provide work/life balance
6. Make them feel valued and thank them for a job well done
7. Give discretionary bonuses or tie a bonus to performance
8. Keep an open office door policy, where they feel comfortable providing you with honest feedback on the projects and company as a whole

And if they do decide to go out on their own, wish them the best and don't burn the bridge. Who knows, you may work together again in some capacity in the future...


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Let em go and wish them well. Offer to work with them when you can. :thumbsup: It's a big world big enough for every one.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Really not sure, but my top two guys can and have run crews. I have been out of the country for up to two weeks with no contact, and things ran smooth. Basic human decency is number one. However, there are some guys who are just destined to go do their own thing, and some who are the opposite. My two guys really have shown no inclination to start their own business. I have worked with several other guys years ago who started businesses. I can usually spot the type, though it wouldn't keep me from hiring them. 

I pay decent, always on time, and set a good example myself with work attitude. No benefits however, but almost none here provide that outside of the union.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Warren said:


> No benefits however, but almost none here provide that outside of the union.


And that, my friends, is why the parents of young women don't want their daughters marrying residential tradesmen. And that is why talented young guys aren't attracted to our industry. They want more than a job, they want a wife someday too.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Kowboy said:


> And that, my friends, is why the parents of young women don't want their daughters marrying residential tradesmen. And that is why talented young guys aren't attracted to our industry. They want more than a job, they want a wife someday too.


And will not leave a good employee any other option but to start their own business.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

NJ Contractor said:


> And will not leave a good employee any other option but to start their own business.


And how would that change things?

They would just be the one not able to provide health insurance for their employees. Myself and one of my employees have health insurance via our wives jobs. In this day and age, it is very common for the wife to have a lower wage job, which provides that.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Warren said:


> And how would that change things?
> 
> They would just be the one not able to provide health insurance for their employees. Myself and one of my employees have health insurance via our wives jobs. In this day and age, it is very common for the wife to have a lower wage job, which provides that.


Super common (me, my lead too) but unfortunate for people who don't have the option. I think trades and small business work in general might be more appealing for young workers if health insurance wasn't a factor.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Democrats should raise the age you can stay on your parents plan from 26 to 46.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Warren said:


> And how would that change things?


OP's question was directed at those with leads/supers. As an owner of a business of a size that requires leads/supers, they should be able to afford to have and offer benefits, such as health insurance. 

If you have leads/supers and cannot afford to provide benefits, such as health insurance, then there is a good chance that there is something wrong with your business.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Kowboy said:


> And that, my friends, is why the parents of young women don't want their daughters marrying residential tradesmen. And that is why talented young guys aren't attracted to our industry. They want more than a job, they want a wife someday too.


Yeah my mil is very upset her daughter married a tradesman :whistling:whistling


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Seven:

Respect
Money
Time Off
Being Cool
Cool Projects to build

Those will move around in order of importance for some 

I am not scared of them going on their own. I told my younger superintendent give me 6 or 7 years and give me a year for you to help train your replacement and I'll teach you how to run jobs, estimate, network and sell you your first job. Introduce him to people all the time. 

My goal is to make it a hadd decision to want to leave. 

Other guys in the field our competition makes it easy to keep them. Turn over is low. I'd never try to hold anyone experienced enough back.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

Warren said:


> And how would that change things?
> 
> 
> 
> They would just be the one not able to provide health insurance for their employees. Myself and one of my employees have health insurance via our wives jobs. In this day and age, it is very common for the wife to have a lower wage job, which provides that.




My sister in law has a civil service job at a school just for the bennies. Money isnt great. No way I could offer benefits to my guys. 


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Jaws said:


> Yeah my mil is very upset her daughter married a tradesman :whistling:whistling


She isn't married to a tradesmen, she's married to a businessman.
You're not just the worker bee.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Big Johnson said:


> Democrats should raise the age you can stay on your parents plan from 26 to 46.


That would be a better plan than the republican's, which is nothing, and then end up bankrupt and homeless because you had a heart attack or something.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> I respectfully disagree with you Jaws and can appreciate how you run your very successful operation. However the question 7 asked is how to retain employees not how to train your competition or build your legacy.


My longest term employees is 12 years. The last time somebody quit me was 2015, to become a fireman. I know about retention

It's not that special, we are getting there though 

I get what you're saying with the health insurance, it just doesn't come up for me except those 3 guys. They make plenty of money though that they couldn't make anywhere else here unless they went to work for a Utility company or something.

If there was a reasonable health plan for 3 people I would buy it. There's not. I have never had a problem paying for my own health insurance. Even my wife was a waitress and I was making a fairly low wage. Priorities are messed up in society and the government has destroyed health care. We all pay the price 

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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

It is also not a sustainable plan to think you were going to keep man for 20- 30 years on average. This isn't GE

The key is to having a mutual respect and a good enough pay out to get your people to help you train their replacements when the time comes. Don't be greedy or stingy.

I fully Expect the best of the hands to go on their own eventually. It is natural in this business.

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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> My longest term employees is 12 years. The last time somebody quit me was 2015, to become a fireman. I know about retention
> 
> It's not that special, we are getting there though
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you are saying. Our healthcare system is atrocious but it does not negate the fact that offering health insurance is a good way to retain good employees, particularly key employees like supers/leads. 

A good health plan is one of the top reasons most do not leave a job, in or out of our industry.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> I agree with everything you are saying. Our healthcare system is atrocious but it does not negate the fact that offering health insurance is a good way to retain good employees, particularly key employees like supers/leads.
> 
> A good health plan is one of the top reasons most do not leave a job, in or out of our industry.


Probably very true if the wife doesn't supply. Both my supers have HI, so it doesnt apply. Ones wife is a financial analyst and the other a nurse 

I think employee pricing (my cost) on a new house or remodel is a good second to HI

It is important to note they are fairly green, so a seasoned super may require expect something different. Haven't had that problem yet lol

I see what you are saying though. It's a good point


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> It is also not a sustainable plan to think you were going to keep man for 20- 30 years on average. This isn't GE
> 
> The key is to having a mutual respect and a good enough pay out to get your people to help you train their replacements when the time comes. Don't be greedy or stingy.
> 
> ...


I have 22 years in business (the first few years I was 100% subs) and I have employees who have been with me over 19 years. My number one competitor, who has been in business a lot longer than me has several guys for 30+ years. 

Why? 

Because of the items mentioned in my original post. It would not be easy for them to duplicate what they already have in a new business of their own without massive risk. And there is not many opportunities available elsewhere for them like the position they already have...


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> I have 22 years in business (the first few years I was 100% subs) and I have employees who have been me with over 19 years and my number one competitor who has been in business a lot longer than me has several guys for 30+ years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Point taken. It's a good one 

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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

NJ Contractor said:


> I stand by my position that offering benefits such as health insurance helps to retain good key employees.


I don't disagree with anything else you have said aside from the blurb I quoted. When you make an assertion to the health of someones business as tied to wage or benefits, it reads like a Democratic Socialists of America talking point. That's all.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> Point taken. It's a good one


And as others have mentioned; having your wife work a low wage job so she can provide health insurance for the family is not a winning business strategy. At least in my *opinion*


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> And as others have mentioned; having your wife work a low wage job so she can provide health insurance for the family is not a winning business strategy. At least in my *opinion*


Why low wage? Lol. The financial analyst works for Stout. She'll be making 6 figures soon. Teachers would be lower wage but that's because Texas doesn't pay teachers well

If they arent educated they are relegated to lower wage work like anything else 

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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

EricBrancard said:


> I don't disagree with anything else you have said aside from the blurb I quoted. When you make an assertion to the health of someones business as tied to wage or benefits, it reads like a Democratic Socialists of America talking point. That's all.


That was not my intent and my comment was not directed at anyone in particular but more of a generalization. I apologize if it came across that way.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> Why low wage? Lol. The financial analyst works for Stout. She'll be making 6 figures soon. Teachers would be lower wage but that's because Texas doesn't pay teachers well
> 
> If they arent educated they are relegated to lower wage work like anything else
> 
> Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk


I was referring to this comment.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> I was referring to this comment.


It is common for sure. 

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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> It is common for sure.


Yes, but is it a winning business strategy and a good way to retain good supers/leads?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> Yes, but is it a winning business strategy and a good way to retain good key employees?


No but what's common isn't a winning strategy ever 

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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

NJ Contractor said:


> I stand by my position that offering benefits such as health insurance helps to retain good key employees.


Both of my leads have been with me for 10 plus years, with no expectation of health insurance, so , I am not seeing things your way.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

I'd be willing to bet...out of ALL the members of CT, at least 60% rely on a spouse for some form of healthcare.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Warren said:


> Both of my leads have been with me for 10 plus years, with no expectation of health insurance, so , I am not seeing things your way.


No worries


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> No but what's common isn't a winning strategy ever
> 
> Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk


Exactly


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Robie said:


> I'd be willing to bet...out of ALL the members of CT, at least 60% rely on a spouse for some form of healthcare.


And that *may* be *one* of the reasons we have a hard time attracting new and talented people to the trades, as well as keeping key employees from not leaving our companies.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

NJ Contractor:

I, for one, am not offended by the thread drift. It's one of the reasons I frequent this forum over some of the more rigid ones; I always end up learning more than what my original post was about. 

It's very much like a chat between contractors at bar. :thumbsup:

In my area, Health Insurance and benefits seem to be big deal in retaining good help. 

When I was a Union Electrician, we had an excellent wage, good HI, retirement, but no paid holidays or vacation. It was unheard of to get paid holidays or vacation in construction. You got paid when you were working, period. 

When that Union shop closed it doors, out of 25 or so guys in that shop, probably 85% or more went on there own.

Most of the little shops around here, like plumbers, electricians, HVAC, etc, have trouble retaining good help. Once they learn the trade, they're off on their own.

I guess the idea of "making" $95-$105 an hour on service calls sounds better than making $45 on the check.  Then reality hits. :laughing:

It's also interesting to hear that, maybe hanging onto a lead for 40 years is just not the standard anymore. 

There are big builders around here, with 50+ guys, so I know it can be done.

I'm enjoying the conversation. :thumbsup:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> That's why you're the boss and not the employee


If I was still a hand I'd rather have the 10k. Lol

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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> If I was still a hand I'd rather have the 10k


And in my scenario, assuming there is no other health care available on your end, you would just have to send it to a health insurance company, which may be more than $10k, depending on group coverage costs, etc...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

NJ Contractor said:


> And in my scenario, assuming there is no other health care available on your end, you would just have to send it to a health insurance company, which may be more than $10k, depending on group coverage costs, etc...




The critical point here is he gets to make the decision not someone else.


Mike.
_______________


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

Hire family members that already had the sour taste of going out on their own and pay them well lol. 


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Calidecks said:


> The critical point here is he gets to make the decision not someone else.


The point is there is no difference in cost to the employer, his total salary will still be $100k.

It is a bad financial decision for Jaws if he decides to pay more than $10k for coverage that is available through his employer. 

But yes, it is his choice.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> And in my scenario, assuming there is no other health care available on your end, you would just have to send it to a health insurance company, which may be more than $10k, depending on group coverage costs, etc...


I choose my carrier in my scenario


I have good insurance but I often skip and pay cash tona nurse practitioner. If I needed a major surgery I'd look at mexico lol

I'm not what one would call a play by others rules guy. 

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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> I choose my carrier in my scenario
> 
> 
> I have good insurance but I often skip and pay cash tona nurse practitioner. If I needed a major surgery I'd look at mexico lol
> ...


Whether you take the insurance or not you still cost your employer $100k. That is my point. 

Offering benefits (seen by some as important) does not necessarily translate into more costs for the employer. You have to look at the total package and costs.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> Whether you take the insurance or not you still cost your employer $100k. That is my point.
> 
> 
> 
> Offering benefits (seen by some as important) does not necessarily translate into more costs for the employer.


My point is my 2 guys that are running jobs have insurance through their wives. If I decided to get rid of my bonus system and give everybody health insurance that some of them don't want and somebody else offered them a bonus system or more money they would leave. Lol

If I had hired somebody to take my place instead of promoting and giving them a piece of the pie (brother) I would have offered a stipend for insurance. That's what we do at the home builders association for the EO. 

Somebody I am trusting to run millions of dollars in construction and handle business while I am out of cell reception ect. . I would take extremely good care of. Add in knowing he would lay down a traffic for me and I for him and partnership make sense. Also in my case if it is a crapy year it's a crappy year for him too. Lol.

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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Where insurance and retirement would recruit is out of high schools. Getting teachers on your side at cetera. For sure

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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> My point is my 2 guys that are running jobs have insurance through their wives. If I decided to get rid of my bonus system and give everybody health insurance that some of them don't want and somebody else offered them a bonus system or more money they would leave. Lol
> 
> If I had hired somebody to take my place instead of promoting and giving them a piece of the pie (brother) I would have offered a stipend for insurance. That's what we do at the home builders association for the EO.
> 
> ...


I am not saying you or anyone else should change their position or what they are doing. I am saying that some times in order to attract and keep the people we need to do what we want, we have to offer some benefits, as in my case. 

And that these benefits may or may not cost more money than just paying someone extremely well. For instance paying someone $90k and providing them with $10k of insurance vs. just paying them $100k. 

Either way works but the insurance may be of more value to some.

Provide good pay and benefits or don't, the choice is up to the business owner. But the companies I see doing extremely well, where the owners are not busting their asses on job sites day in and day out, pay their guys well and offer some form of fringe benefits.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> Where insurance and retirement would recruit is out of high schools. Getting teachers on your side at cetera. For sure


Yes most young people think the trades are not worth pursuing.

A friend of mine works at facebook in NYC making well over $100k a year. He can eat breakfast, lunch, dinner, as well as unlimited snacks all day for free, and they encourage you to bring up to 5 people to join you for dinner. They also do free dry cleaning, free gym membership, bonuses, healthcare, retirement, $25 a week to do something outside of work with a coworker (even if it is grab beers), etc...

Where do you think the young folks want to work... a dusty job site with no benefits or a place like facebook...


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Benefits would probably be different based on where people are in life. Younger, single guys would prob take a cash bonus or higher salary over insurance where married guys with kids would be more conscious of healthcare costs and may take a pay cut for a better health package. Some people may not want to choose and want high pay and benefits. Some guys have earned that and can find it. 

Different markets, different labor pools, different local cultures would all be factors.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> Yes most young people think the trades are not worth pursuing.
> 
> A friend of mine works at facebook in NYC making well over $100k a year. He can eat breakfast, lunch, dinner, as well as unlimited snacks all day for free, and they encourage you to bring up to 5 people to join you for dinner. They also do free dry cleaning, free gym membership, bonuses, healthcare, retirement, $25 a week to do something outside of work with a coworker (even if it is grab beers), etc...
> 
> Where do you think the young folks want to work... a dusty job site with no benefits or a place like facebook...


That facebook job sounds like hell on earth to me. I'd rather be running a skid loader or framing a house myself . 100% all week and twice on sunday 

I hear you though. A good friend of my wife's (an ex girl friend actually) little brother got out of school and 100% didnt want to go to college. I told him the benefits of the trades and the negatives. Because he wasn't an enterprising person I suggested oil field. Best of both worlds but your gone from home. 

Hes a crane rigger for TNT and made over 75k last year, hes 21. A crane operator out there 175 - 200k. 

If your going to be a hand forever it's not a money maker for sure. But still if you like it it can be very good. My ex plumber has a journeyman who's 23 making 65k, company truck, cell phone. 

I loved being a carpenter. Big loud, fun equipment, hard work, true progress everyday and a tangible result. I love being a builder, all the above and your leading and managing a lot of people and resources, making business deals, risk and reward, in charge of your own world. A man's job. 

The money is good right now but it's a boom, I know it won't always bIt's nice to make more but it's not all about the money at all for me. Nothing I'd rather do, if I won 20 million in the lottery id be building my own subdivisions and still getting up at 4.... maybe 5 lol

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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> Benefits would probably be different based on where people are in life. Younger, single guys would prob take a cash bonus or higher salary over insurance where married guys with kids would be more conscious of healthcare costs and may take a pay cut for a better health package. Some people may not want to choose and want high pay and benefits. Some guys have earned that and can find it.
> 
> Different markets, different labor pools, different local cultures would all be factors.


Very true 

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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

This could also be part of the reason why so few young men want to enter the trades these days.  :whistling



https://www.rt.com/op-ed/478234-testosterone-crisis-america-future/


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I will say a my brother doesn't feel a 100% the same. Likes what he does but there are other things he would do that would be the same for him. I truly think I'm one of the few people who got to do what he was born to do. Getting to do it with family and friends ( several of my men I consider friends) even better

On the other hand I have seen friends in this business who have been totally ****ed and it is a really ****ty line of business for them and they are spoiled to ever think it will be a good 1. I have been truly blessed beyond measure and I understand that, but sometimes I forget that when I am looking at this business from a bird's eye view. It is hard for me to see it as a negative

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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

My last post in this thread, I promise...

The point I have been trying to make is that in order to attract and retain good employees, you must treat them well and compensate them well. 

Like we always tell our clients, you get what you pay for. 

:rockon:


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I feel the exact same way.

I think about what I would do if I was injured or incapacitated in some way, and honestly, I have no idea.

Other than going back to truck driving, if I even could, I don't have any other ideas.

I've wanted to be a builder since I was 10 years old, at least.

I get to do it all, unless I don't like it. I drive my dump truck, operate equipment, form and pour, frame, electrical, plumbing, trimout, whatever.

Don't like roofing or HVAC, so I sub it out. :thumbsup:



But I sometimes forget that not every one loves this trade as much as I do. There are people who would _actually_ rather work for facebox than build. 

Don't understand it at all. :no:


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

NJ Contractor said:


> My last post in this thread, I promise...
> 
> The point I have been trying to make is that in order to attract and retain good employees, you must treat them well and compensate them well.
> 
> ...


No need to bail on us. :thumbsup: :laughing:

I've enjoyed your perspective, and I tend to agree with you, because in my area, and with the folks I've personally talked to, lack of benefits seems to be a big deal breaker for them.

I know it's not the same with every one, or in every place, but it certainly holds true in my area, and evidently, in your company. :thumbsup:


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> No need to bail on us. :thumbsup: :laughing:
> 
> I've enjoyed your perspective, and I tend to agree with you, because in my area, and with the folks I've personally talked to, lack of benefits seems to be a big deal breaker for them.
> 
> I know it's not the same with every one, or in every place, but it certainly holds true in my area, and evidently, in your company. :thumbsup:


Thanks...I too love certain aspects of this business but there are some I could do without. I could never be a corporate guy or desk jockey though. 

Entrepreneurship is in my blood but that could be satisfied in many ways :thumbsup:


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## JoeStanton (Sep 24, 2008)

This thread got derailed, but for once in a good way. I just built a spec 20 min north of Boston. It had a drainage line from the town and conservation in the back. Town made us pay for new drainage and took a 30ft easement for access. The conservation made us put up a fence 10ft off the house and clean the area. 100k added to the cost of a new house.

Went from 3/4 acre to 1/4 per the town. It was this or property was worthless. Money guy bought the property and prints before I got involved, he lost about 100k. Don't just think high markets are easy targets.

As far as employees, you have to treat each one differently. I give paid holidays, vacation, and year end bonuses. (my lead 8 weeks pay and 2nd 6 weeks pay.) This makes people realize you are a company not some schmuck. Some guys aren't morning people, some are, show up early and leave early. If they get the job done, I can work with the rest. All my guys have HI through there wife's. 

Guys need to know they are making money for the company, not the boss. Why get refused a raise when he shows up in a brand new 911?


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

joestanton said:


> guys need to know they are making money for the company, not the boss. Why get refused a raise when he shows up in a brand new 911?


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Jaws said:


> I'm definitely a tradesman, btw. What do you think I sold my tools? Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk


We are all tradesmen on here and we are all businessmen too.

Difference being what this thread is about, retaining employees or having them start their own businesses.

Did you just suddenly decide one day you are going to run your own company or was it always somewhat on the horizon and you were just waiting for the right time?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TimNJ said:


> We are all tradesmen on here and we are all businessmen too.
> 
> Difference being what this thread is about, retaining employees or having them start their own businesses.
> 
> Did you just suddenly decide one day you are going to run your own company or was it always somewhat on the horizon and you were just waiting for the right time?


100% always on the horizon. 

Point taken. But she did marry a tradesman, and a low level one at that, and that her mom is probably pretty ok that she did. That was my point


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> View attachment 482709


I love that meme lol


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Jaws said:


> 100% always on the horizon.
> 
> Point taken. But she did marry a tradesman, and a low level one at that, and that her mom is probably pretty ok that she did. That was my point


But she knew you had a "vision" and she shared in that vision as a somewhat long-term plan in life.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

It all boils down to the individual.

To retain different people requires different incentives. 
One guy might be persuaded with a company truck.
Another, health insurance.
Another paid vacation, sick leave.
Another, $$$.

Also different areas of the country attract different incentives too.

If you (collectively speaking) lost your crew, what would it take to replace them with new people of the same caliber?
My guess would be some form of all the above options.


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## CityDecks (Jan 10, 2018)

Calidecks said:


> My wife has the health benefits but if she didn't I could afford to buy my own. Wasn't always like that.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________


Wish my wife had bennies. I pay for ours. Not cheap...

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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TimNJ said:


> But she knew you had a "vision" and she shared in that vision as a somewhat long-term plan in life.


Nah my wife just doesn't give a **** about money lol. 

But yeah I'm fairly sure I wouldnt of stayed a hand in any industry. It's not in my DNA. If I was I'd be looking for a way out 

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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm pretty stoked that if we have another kid, we automatically have to pay for the "family" plan from our provider, which means it won't be any more to add me.
I think my day could be coming! All it'll mean is I have to have another kid. Whatever, how hard can that be?


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Big Johnson said:


> Democrats should raise the age you can stay on your parents plan from 26 to 46.


Or maybe we just agree as a society that we should take care of each other and provide health care for everyone?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Metro M & L said:


> Or maybe we just agree as a society that we should take care of each other and provide health care for everyone?




Why stop there?


Mike.
_______________


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

I agree! 

In a land with so much, let's make sure we're all taken care of! 

Good we're finally seeing eye to eye.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs? Sure, what could go wrong?


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

EricBrancard said:


> From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs? Sure, what could go wrong?


Uh...You realize that was a first century Christian idea, not a communist one. The 12 Apostles and 500 brethren came up with that one. :thumbsup:

The Bolsheviks could F*&k up a bent crowbar. 

Doesn't mean they didn't steal something good from Christianity. 

Kind of like America. :whistling

If fact, the idea that you were a steward of everything that God gave you, and it was to be used for His glory, use, and honor, predates even that.

Moses told the people of Israel that they had to take care of the poor. It wasn't an option, it was a duty.

Has nothing to do with government stealing all your $#&t and mis-managing it. :no:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> Uh...You realize that was a first century Christian idea, not a communist one. The 12 Apostles and 500 brethren came up with that one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wrong bro. 

I agree with your first sentiments- it is a duty to take care of have nots. 

Mismanagement and theft of government is THE issue. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who does more than I do for my meager holdings for less fortunate. Handing to criminals isn't in my DNA though. Might as well burn it 

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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Wrong bro.
> 
> I agree with your first sentiments- it is a duty to take care of have nots.
> 
> ...


But that's exactly what I said.

It's not a government issue. Can't be, and shouldn't be.

All I said is that the concept of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is not a communist, or Bolshevik, or even a government concept, it's a Christian one.

I think part of the problem with American Christians right now is confusing these exact things.

The opposite of Communism isn't Capitalism. They're actually the same.

Getting rid of Capitalism has nothing to do with a business, or an individual, making a profit. :no:

2 completely different things.

And the communal sharing that the Apostles practiced was completely voluntary. No one had to participate.

Christians are required to care for the poor. Doesn't mean they have to give money to the poor, or even less, to the government. :no:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Back before uncle sugar was intertwined in everything we do, communities helped each other. It's a lot harder to take free **** from your church and neighbors than to get it in the mail from uncle sugar. 

If many able bodies actually felt ashamed of some things maybe they'd begin to help themselves. The government debit cards are a prime example. I think they need to go back to food stamps. 


Mike.
_______________


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

I think ...if you don't help yourself.


Oh well.....


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

NJ Contractor said:


> And as others have mentioned; having your wife work a low wage job so she can provide health insurance for the family is not a winning business strategy. At least in my *opinion*


My sincere respect to those that made it work. Maybe enough positive things went their way to maintain the vision you need. :thumbsup:

I used to sit at the desk and manually do payroll for 3 guys. At times I was working for them, to keep them business, to cover the overhead etc....I paid 12 for the rookie, 15/hr for some skill and 20 for my trusted guy. That was in the mid 90's. The other guys I knew doing similar work was the same. 

So to make it more worth it for employees part cash sweetened the deal. Once in a while I would explain to my lead guy how I approached a job time wise/goals. 8-10 days..... if we came under I would pay them the extra time and give them off. For motivation. Of course for one reason or another jobs exceeded the cushion and I ate the difference. Taking them out to dinner and giving them a weeks pay off at the holidays was all I could do.

Another thing would be for my lead guy was offer him small Saturday jobs I sold at my rate. Figure it garnishes his income with boost, keeps him time sensitive and keeps a client happy I cant get too.

Due to a few things like mass cheap labor, housing bubble in between, two recessions and lousy recovery those numbers never changed. What it cost me........ then what the employee took home after taxes became less than the cash guys off the books for less hourly money.
That flood of cheap cash labor lowered what the market could bare in sales.

I know guys that do a million a year in sales but make 75k because the overhead and material volume needed with cheap labor is enormous.

I do that on 250-300k in sales solo. I will never go back to hiring employees specially in this retarded state. 

I know more that makes far less than their woman and need their benefits on top of it around here.

We have a high cost of living and seasonal work which means few business days to recover the overhead. No one is looking out for the trades


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Tom M said:


> I do that on 250-300k in sales solo. I will never go back to hiring employees specially in this retarded state.


Stay small and keep it all works for some. I have tried it both ways and in order for me to maintain the level of income I desire and to do what I like to do as the business owner, I need at least a few good employees. But as we discussed before it is not easy. Not to mention dealing with the clients, architects, designers, *subs*, vendors, town officials, etc... all at the same time, to try and complete a project. It's as if you are working with people who have opposing interests. Then there is also the supply of never ending competition who do not know how to properly price or perform their work.

Fortunately, I am at the point now where I can afford to scale back and I am still relatively young. So my plan is to either switch to small scale electrical contracting (I hold a NJ electrical contractors license) or do something else. I have a few ideas of what I'd like to pursue and am exploring my options now. 

But one never knows, I will always be a GC and real estate investor of sorts, and I will either attempt to translate those skills into a new business, or I may just jump back in the fire.

Time will tell...:thumbsup:


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

NJ Contractor said:


> Not to mention dealing with the clients, architects, designers, *subs*, vendors, town officials, etc... all at the same time, to try and complete a project. It's as if you are working with people who have opposing interests.


Good luck with wherever it takes you.

Theres more to it with remodeling. I may work stupid hard a few days then do managing work or finesse stuff. As you said subs, inspections, shipping....the timely nature of this can be a killer. Easy to keep busy a control quality solo.

If you have dead time and employees......hard. So then you try doing multiple jobs at once but In recent years I would hire someone in the busy rush but find myself having to redo the work. So after demo........


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> Uh...You realize that was a first century Christian idea, not a communist one. The 12 Apostles and 500 brethren came up with that one. :thumbsup:
> 
> The Bolsheviks could F*&k up a bent crowbar.
> 
> ...


That's wonderful. That's a direct quote from Karl Marx so the inspiration for it is kind of irrelevant after that since the damage his ideas caused are tangible.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> But that's exactly what I said.
> 
> It's not a government issue. Can't be, and shouldn't be.
> 
> ...


I guess if I was a christian this would matter to me. Capitalism has pulled more people on earth out of poverty than any other system.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> The size of a business that may require a lead or super could be a total of 3 people. So that assertion is not correct. The fault, as usual, is with government intervention into market systems.


This is very true! Along with crappy law suits jacking up costs as well. When I was first working for a small remodeling company they had health insurance with a decent deductible for their employees. This was well over 20 years ago.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

The crew ran like a smooth piece of machinery last year banging out job after job. Allowed me to do more selling. 

I’m pretty sure I’d do the same, even if they weren’t family. Gave everyone raises starting this spring. If things slow sucks for me. The gamble we make as small business owners. 
Another way to keep guys around. 


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

NJ Contractor said:


> I was not asking a question, I was stating a fact.
> 
> And if they do start their own business they at least have a chance in the future to do better for themselves both financially and on the other points mentioned. It's all about risk vs. reward. Bottom line is if you reward your key employees, you have a better chance that they won't leave, whether for another job or self-employment, and one of those rewards just might be health insurance.




If my lead gets stellar health insurance through his wife he's going to want the money not the insurance. It's not a one size fits all scenerio.


Mike.
_______________


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Easy Gibson said:


> I'm pretty stoked that if we have another kid, we automatically have to pay for the "family" plan from our provider, which means it won't be any more to add me.
> I think my day could be coming! All it'll mean is I have to have another kid. Whatever, how hard can that be?


A lot easier than you think.


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## CityDecks (Jan 10, 2018)

Calidecks said:


> If my lead gets stellar health insurance through his wife he's going to want the money not the insurance. It's not a one size fits all scenerio.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________


Not usually. There's usually some type from employee contribution towards h-ins. This conversation will never end no one will ever win. There all points but at the end of the day if there not happy there just not happy and will leave. If you're lucky they'll come to you and talk about what why there not happy. And then you'll fix it and 6-12 something else comes up. Its It's really stuff to be a small business. It's a tremendous mental and financial challenges that arise for all of us. 

One of biggest challenges is parking g on our city jobs. I typical hire younger or guys that will to take transit or ride bike because driving/ parking to my jobs does not work . 

Thanks to Obama care I've been lucky to score with col of guy's that no need for hins due to being under 26. 

Most guy's around here in trades typically have wife's with jobs and bennies so another non issue. 

I've had few guy's that had there own ( Obama) so I gave them cpl bucks towards it. 

I have my small group plan for self and wife. Its available to anyone who needs but there is a contribution. Chits too fukn expensive to give away.
So far 10 yrs has city decks non issues. 

The main concern is getting hurt on job and comp comes to play. 



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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Calidecks said:


> If my lead gets stellar health insurance through his wife he's going to want the money not the insurance. It's not a one size fits all scenerio.


Yes I know, I covered this in earlier posts; the cost to the employer is still the same and both are ways of retaining a lead, but not the only way...


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

I think I can give you smart advice here. For building houses from wood (usa) framing company get how much of worth of house? Maybe 10%, trim company 5% and builder 10%. How if you act like home builder that keep in house framing and trim carpenters. So you get 25% of worth of house like profit. Than you can pay medical and 40$/hour. Did back than investigate how much I wold be paid if I would be sub for framing new houses. There is not f space for anything to be paid. Trimming is bad to. 
Well I know what is big problem here. Framing carpenters get hurt and if you are home builder you are to big to fail (declare bankruptcy, disappear). It is why most builders keep framing sub.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

tipitop said:


> I think I can give you smart advice here. For building houses from wood (usa) framing company get how much of worth of house? Maybe 10%, trim company 5% and builder 10%. How if you act like home builder that keep in house framing and trim carpenters. So you get 25% of worth of house like profit. Than you can pay medical and 40$/hour. Did back than investigate how much I wold be paid if I would be sub for framing new houses. There is not f space for anything to be paid. Trimming is bad to.
> Well I know what is big problem here. Framing carpenters get hurt and if you are home builder you are to big to fail (declare bankruptcy, disappear). It is why most builders keep framing sub.


By far the most logical response yet :thumbsup:


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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> I know some amount of that is inevitable, but you guys that are running 3 or 4 to 12+ guys, how do you hang on the them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Give'em the pickle!









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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

tipitop said:


> I think I can give you smart advice here. For building houses from wood (usa) framing company get how much of worth of house? Maybe 10%, trim company 5% and builder 10%. How if you act like home builder that keep in house framing and trim carpenters. So you get 25% of worth of house like profit. Than you can pay medical and 40$/hour. Did back than investigate how much I wold be paid if I would be sub for framing new houses. There is not f space for anything to be paid. Trimming is bad to.
> Well I know what is big problem here. Framing carpenters get hurt and if you are home builder you are to big to fail (declare bankruptcy, disappear). It is why most builders keep framing sub.


At a 28% GPM most remodeling companies domt keep 7% nationally. Trucks, office, office staff, shop, supervisors, advertising, dead time for hands, PTO, etc... adds up FAST

We are home builders/remodelers and have our own carpenters, if we just built new homes even doing 12 a year I'd never keep carpenters on staff, hard to keep them busy or you'll be shorthanded Depended on timing. Large renovations (300-650k+) I keep guys busy all the time. 

There's a reason you dont see your model often or rarely at all. 

Also 10% isn't a high enough mark up imo even for a multi million dollar house imo btw

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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> At a 28% GPM most remodeling companies domt keep 7% nationally. Trucks, office, office staff, shop, supervisors, advertising, dead time for hands, PTO, etc... adds up FAST
> 
> We are home builders/remodelers and have our own carpenters, if we just built new homes even doing 12 a year I'd never keep carpenters on staff, hard to keep them busy or you'll be shorthanded Depended on timing. Large renovations (300-650k+) I keep guys busy all the time.
> 
> ...


You must have a pocket translator and good response btw, but I think he backtracked on his idea because it is too risky to have in-house framers and finish carpenters due to the workers comp risk.

Imo, if you got the right subs, being sub heavy is the way to go, especially if building new. In remodeling with all the little bs and delays, you need a few in-house guys.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

^^^ I know I do not know much about percentages in construction business. My main idea is that you need move farther up in building chain and get bigger share of profit so you can pay better whoever you want. If you are framing sub no matter how much of "money gymnastic" you do you will not succeed. It is all about percentage that you get from worth of house.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

tipitop said:


> ^^^ I know I do not know much about percentages in construction business. My main idea is that you need move farther up in building chain and get bigger share of profit so you can pay better whoever you want. If you are framing sub no matter how much of "money gymnastic" you do you will not succeed. It is all about percentage that you get from worth of house.


There are successful framing subs all over.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> There are successful framing subs all over.


Yep. Same for all trades

The framer I used to work for makes more than I do probably with 7 legal guys, almost all cousins from Arkansas. With what is being charged now it's hard not to make money but hes always been successful framing. 

Pretty good set up considering he only works for two builders primarily and has little on the way of headaches 

Dude looks like a hobo and drives a 10 year old pick up, but his wife drives a brand new White Label Navigator and they have a big house and pool. Hasn't borrowed money for anything, at all, since he was 35, 20 years. Pays cash.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

^^^ All that count is it his wife a trophy wife? I mean a natural blonde.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

tipitop said:


> ^^^ All that count is it his wife a trophy wife? I mean a natural blonde.


No lol. He and her are from backwoods Arkansas. 

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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> That’s the often misunderstood take away from the study.


What is?

Btw, I'm going to add it's also relative to the person. Making more than 95k isn't lowering my happiness level :no:

For me it's more about what I draw. I'm happier this year than 2018 where I drew and spent over 40% more than 2019. Part of that happiness comes from investing for the future. 

If I made 7 figures i think I'd be just as happy. Just rich AF :laughing::laughing:


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

There's a flip side to that coin...

Money doesn't make you happy but the lack of money can cause unhappiness.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Jaws said:


> What is?
> 
> Btw, I'm going to add it's also relative to the person. Making more than 95k isn't lowering my happiness level :no:
> 
> ...


The correlation between earnings and happiness doesn’t end at 75k or 95k. It continues to go up indefinitely.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> The correlation between earnings and happiness doesn’t end at 75k or 95k. It continues to go up indefinitely.


I would think so lol

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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

$$$


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> The correlation between earnings and happiness doesn’t end at 75k or 95k. It continues to go up indefinitely.


Almost everyone I meet wishes they made a little more. Whether they're at 20k or 10M. Haven't met anyone that makes more than that.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Golden view said:


> Almost everyone I meet wishes they made a little more. Whether they're at 20k or 10M. Haven't met anyone that makes more than that.


I wonder if they will still wish that at the end of their life...


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> I wonder if they will still wish that at the end of their life...


Depends. I know if my kids had 100k in student loans and I was leaving my wife on SS and a crappy house that was hard to maintain, a vehicle that ran like chit, I'd say yes. I'd be saying i should of built more houses 

Just being honest 

If that was taken care of and I had enough money for a cigar, some fuel to pull the camper to a state park a couple times a year with my wife, if she could go to the store every saturday, if I could get a fishing license, some shotgun shells in dove season to shoot in my back field and to smoke a pork butt every now and again I'd probably be ok with it. Goals are set higher than that but I wouldn't be wishing for more if I didnt have it 

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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> Depends. I know if my kids had 100k in student loans and I was leaving my wife on SS and a crappy house that was hard to maintain, a vehicle that ran like chit, I'd say yes. I'd be saying i should of built more houses


My point is some people get so caught up in the money trap that they often ignore the other important stuff in their life, and before they know it life is over and it's too late.

20k is not enough...you can feed a lot of people with 10m.

And an inexpensive term life policy to make sure everyone is taken care of upon departure...


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

My gf’s aunt is loaded. More than a couple mil prob less than 5. She has no kids and leaving a lot of it to my gf. She’s the executor of the will. 

She came over for dinner Sunday in Walmart jeans and had a tiny hole in her sweater. Dosnt travel, basically saves all her money. Tighter than tight but generous with others. 

Keeps telling my gf she’s not gonna have to worry about money in the future, so don’t work so hard now. 


I’Such a shame to not enjoy her life to the fullest, especially if you have the means. Her only luxury is an Audi. . 


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## OG1 (Dec 23, 2019)

NYgutterguy said:


> My gf’s aunt is loaded. More than a couple mil prob less than 5. She has no kids and leaving a lot of it to my gf. She’s the executor of the will.
> 
> She came over for dinner Sunday in Walmart jeans and had a tiny hole in her sweater. Dosnt travel, basically saves all her money. Tighter than tight but generous with others.
> 
> ...


Depends on where satisfaction lies. Watching money stack up to some is just as much fun as kicking it over to another.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

OG1 said:


> Depends on where satisfaction lies. Watching money stack up to some is just as much fun as kicking it over to another.




Exactly what she told me the other day. Reaching new milestones in her savings Gives her satisfaction


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

NY, 

Not sure I would post so much personal info on a public forum.


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## mrcat (Jun 27, 2015)

NYgutterguy said:


> Exactly what she told me the other day. Reaching new milestones in her savings Gives her satisfaction
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Guess you better keep the GF around for a while 

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## OG1 (Dec 23, 2019)

mrcat said:


> NYgutterguy said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly what she told me the other day. Reaching new milestones in her savings Gives her satisfaction
> ...


 He needs to propose and elope before her attorney has time to draw up the prenup.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

I have found absolutely no downside to climbing the earning scale. 

It affords me opportunity. I like opportunity.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

If I were any smarter I could no longer be a carpenter:blink:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Easy Gibson said:


> I have found absolutely no downside to climbing the earning scale.
> 
> It affords me opportunity. I like opportunity.


Freedom and flexibility... opportunity can be found at any income level...


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

Golden view said:


> Almost everyone I meet wishes they made a little more. Whether they're at 20k or 10M. Haven't met anyone that makes more than that.


Well in 97. when I come to USA. First job was trimming house for Dayton Hudson, if is that his real name, owner of Target and one of tree richest man at planet. His money didn't jump at me for sure. Btw related to my another post up in this tread, his wife was, at age over 60, a trophy wife for sure.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

EricBrancard said:


> If I was 20% dumber I'd be 60% happier.


I think that's the 80/20 rule and you would be 80% happier! 

The 80/20 Principle by Richard Koch-good book with interesting applications.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

NJ Contractor said:


> NY,
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure I would post so much personal info on a public forum.




Clearly, you haven’t seen my post about the skid marks in the toilet. 


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

NYgutterguy said:


> Clearly, you haven’t seen my post about the skid marks in the toilet.


Thankfully, no


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

OG1 said:


> He needs to propose and elope before her attorney has time to draw up the prenup.




Been saving for 25 years and made a couple good investments. I’m good with my own money 


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Oh yeah? When we got married I was making somewhere less than 15 bucks an hour - doing trade work not business. Wore the bags full time 11 years into marriage, last 4 that did business second half of the day. Took very good care of her as a tradesman, LI, HI, house, etc... while buying property etc...
> 
> I did pursue higher education inconstrucion but I'd give it back before I'd give back the trade time. My estimates are accurate, projects sleek and well built because I know how to build chit.
> 
> ...


Going to reiterate this today. Between starting that commercial install project in dallas and a friend doing. A 750k remodel he estimated at 440k as well as building a 5k sq ft 7 figure spec, and the chit shows these three examples are from 1 thing - lack of construction knowledge beyond basics. 



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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> My point is some people get so caught up in the money trap that they often ignore the other important stuff in their life, and before they know it life is over and it's too late.
> 
> 20k is not enough...you can feed a lot of people with 10m.
> 
> And an inexpensive term life policy to make sure everyone is taken care of upon departure...


Yes on LI, I have a good policy and the company has a good one on me. She would be fine 

My point was to an extent there are circumstances I'd be thinking I should worked more 

I have done the money chasing thing and working a ton but am passed that now. I'll work 80 hours a week if necessary to pay the light bill but not for a new boat or whatever 

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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

I had a friend who worked his ass off in hopes of being rich and having the time to do what he wanted to one day in the future. At 40 years old, he poured himself a glass of wine, laid on the couch to relax in front of the TV and had an aneurysm. He never got off that couch and was found several days later after not showing for work...


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

NJ Contractor said:


> I had a friend who worked his ass off in hopes of being rich and having the time to do what he wanted to one day in the future. At 40 years old, he poured himself a glass of wine, laid on the couch to relax in front of the TV and had an aneurysm. He never got off that couch and was found several days later after not showing for work...


Went down going after he wanted. That's not so bad. Dying young sucks anyway. 

I'd rather go out like your buddy than as a bum just chilling with an easy gig and not progressing towards what I want 

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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Jaws said:


> Went down going after he wanted. That's not so bad.


I often wonder if he would have done things differently, given the opportunity.


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

Would never want to keep an employee from going it on his own. In fact, I've helped many over the years.

However, I know where this is coming from though - In most states there is a lack of state licensing, so it is very easy for someone to just become a "contractor" over-night. and they do, all the time. 

You'd think wages would be a lot higher in states lacking licensing, if not for the simple fact your employee could be your competitor tomorrow....Oh, wait, I forgot, they're typically "independent subcontractors".....But wait again! Doesn't that mean they're already out on their own? Such a conundrum! LOL & SMH


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

tnt specialty said:


> Would never want to keep an employee from going it on his own. In fact, I've helped many over the years.
> 
> However, I know where this is coming from though - In most states there is a lack of state licensing, so it is very easy for someone to just become a "contractor" over-night. and they do, all the time.
> 
> You'd think wages would be a lot higher in states lacking licensing, if not for the simple fact your employee could be your competitor tomorrow....Oh, wait, I forgot, they're typically "independent subcontractors".....But wait again! Doesn't that mean they're already out on their own? Such a conundrum! LOL & SMH


Do you ever post anything about actually executing projects or only ride your state licensing hobby horse?


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

EricBrancard said:


> Do you ever post anything about actually executing projects or only ride your state licensing hobby horse?


Can't recall posting anything about executing a project - I do chime in on roofing & construction technical issues every now & then -Primarily business practices/ethics though. I try to stay relevant to the topic.


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## RichVT (Feb 28, 2009)

I would ask the original question differently.

What would cause your best employees to give up the safety and security of a steady paycheck working for you and assume the risk, expense and effort of going out on their own?

I think most people would stay with a sure thing unless there's something motivating them to change. That motivation might have nothing to do with you. But it might.


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## Bearpau (Jan 8, 2013)

Oh, and the dog too.
But not the cat, nobody cares about the cat.
Andy.
I like cats I just cant eat a whole one by myself😁


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