# Floor buckling after 7 years



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

A really good customer of mine called me over for my opinion of this floor. The floor is engineered and all of a sudden started doing this after 7 years. Anybody have any helpful info ?


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Crawl? Slab? It looks like moisture from somewhere. Is there fridge with an icemaker close that could be leaking? Is it just that area or the whole floor?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

overanalyze said:


> Crawl? Slab? It looks like moisture from somewhere. Is there fridge with an icemaker close that could be leaking? Is it just that area or the whole floor?


It's a slab on grade, middle of living room. theres another area about 30 feet away doing the same thing. I was thinking that being in earthquake territory he possible have slab cracks. If so then original slab probably didn't have a moisture barrier. And no there is no water source nearby


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Californiadecks said:


> It's a slab on grade, middle of living room. theres another area about 30 feet away doing the same thing. I was thinking that being in earthquake territory he possible have slab cracks. If so then original slab probably didn't have a moisture barrier. And no there is no water source nearby


It could be moisture or it could buckle from being installed to tight and not being able to move with thermal changes. best bet would be to take the shoe off and see if it has room to move.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Looks like moisture to me.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Shane, i agree that its probably moisture, but why now all of a sudden after 7 years?

As for room to move, i checked and installers left 1/4" - 3/8" room to wiggle at the parameters


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

That's moisture not lack of expansion.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

That is delaminaton, not "buckling". Engineered wood has to stay pretty damp for a LONG time to do that unless it's some Chinese junk. To what is the affected area adjacent? If I had to be I'd say it's a slow leak in the slab.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

Wait a damn minute! That's laminate! Is this some sort of practical joke?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

No that's engineered, its probably hard to tell by the picture but that's definitely engineered. It an expensive floor i might add.


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## CarrPainting (Jun 29, 2010)

put a small area rug over it. Problem solved! :thumbsup:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Rogue cat. Its always the Cat..


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## lawndart (Dec 3, 2006)

Definetly moisture related


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Get a moisture meter and check the two bad areas, then check a couple of different spots that aren't doing the same thing and compare. If its engineered on a slab above grade or not, I believe it should still have a vapor barrier underneath it...so check that as well.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

When was the house built?
In California we did some weird things like putting a vapor (vapour, for our Canadian posters) barrier over the dirt THEN 2"-4" of sand on top of that and then pouring the concrete slab. Strange indeed, this led to some moisture infiltration issues over the years.
Stuff a lot like this.

Andy.


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

Maybe you have a broken waste pipe in the slab that's leaking. Or even a pin whole in a water line.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I saw a Holmes episode the other day where the contractor had put plastic down and then the flooring. IIRC, it was the moisture coming up through the nail holes that was causing it.

Hate to pull the Holmes card, but it was a similar problem. They just put in a heated floor. Problem solved. :thumbup:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

VinylHanger said:


> I saw a Holmes episode the other day where the contractor had put plastic down and then the flooring. IIRC, it was the moisture coming up through the nail holes that was causing it.
> 
> Hate to pull the Holmes card, but it was a similar problem. They just put in a heated floor. Problem solved. :thumbup:


Moisture coming up through nail holes? It's a slab on grade, the floor is glued down and it has been fine for 7 years, I remodeled his kitchen and then he got his own flooring guys after. Good thing the guys a lawyer, I told him its probably cracked slab that didn't get a moisture barrier when they built the house. I don't see water anywhere besides irrigation. We get about 5 inches of rain a year and no snow or freeze. If there's a cracked slab it wouldn't take much for it to wick water. His whole yard is constantly wet from irrigation.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

overanalyze said:


> Get a moisture meter and check the two bad areas, then check a couple of different spots that aren't doing the same thing and compare. If its engineered on a slab above grade or not, I believe it should still have a vapor barrier underneath it...so check that as well.


The paperwork for the floor claims a moisture barrier, but exactly what that means I don't know.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> When was the house built?
> In California we did some weird things like putting a vapor (vapour, for our Canadian posters) barrier over the dirt THEN 2"-4" of sand on top of that and then pouring the concrete slab. Strange indeed, this led to some moisture infiltration issues over the years.
> Stuff a lot like this.
> 
> Andy.


Thanks Andy, 
the house was built in 1976. I've added a bathroom upstairs, remodeled gutted and added 3 feet to his kitchen and completely gutted another bath and remodeled upstairs. Added an elaborate patio cover in his back yard. All in the last 9 years or so. So you can imagine what was going through my mind when I got that phone call about his floor. When I saw it was completely no where near any of my plumbing and it was in the middle of his living room I was a bit relieved. If it was a plumbing leak I don't think It would pop up 30 feet away from the closet pipes in the living room.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Retired district attorney? Good luck with that. I would create some separation on that one. Perhaps refer an expert.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I guess you do more than decks huh..


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I guess you do more than decks huh..


I do decks because I enjoy doing them, however I am a general contractor, and like most of us general Contractors I am a Carpenter by trade. 

this particular client is also a personal friend of mine and has been for many years, so he calls me for advice, I didn't contract his floor I did build his kitchen, his bathrooms (upstairs) the only plumbing I did under his slab was for his island, there is nothing even close to that area that indicates a leak on my work. I did use a very qualified plumber for everything, he used silver solder and all his plumbing has always been top notch.

I did check his water meter and made sure all the water was off in the house and the meter didn't budge, as to indicate a leak, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. If there's a slab leak its probably on his old pipes. I built that kitchen 8 years ago, never had a problem.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Might be interesying to have the drains/water lines gps scoped to see if something is leaking in that area. Andy is usually pretty good and seems to be confident in this hypotheses so my money is on that.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Might be interesying to have the drains/water lines gps scoped to see if something is leaking in that area. Andy is usually pretty good and seems to be confident in this hypotheses so my koney is on that.


I've had Andy do my drawings for me he's a smart cookie, actually he is from this area and your right he's probably on to something. 

I went looking around his property and found what looked to be newly cracked site concrete, so it could also be a cracked slab that's wicking water. We get probably 4 or 5 small earthquakes a year here. Oh one more thing that is important that I haven't mentioned is there was a bad enough earthquake about 2 years ago that caused his chimney to completely break away from the home and left a 2 inch gap between the chimney the house, so there is significant movement on that property.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Could be busted drain tile.. Is that a floating laminate floor?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Could be busted drain tile.. Is that a floating laminate floor?


that floor is glued down, engineered hardwood, so if there is water I don't think it's flowing under the flooring.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> that floor is glued down, engineered hardwood, so if there is water I don't think it's flowing under the flooring.


That's great news. Is there any extra left over from the original install. The first thing I would do is cut out the damaged section.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> That's great news. Is there any extra left over from the original install. The first thing I would do is cut out the damaged section.


Actually Dr. He has about 5 or 6 boxes of the original flooring. I was going to start surgery but decided to wait and let the flooring company do the dirty work. They will be contacting him Monday to schedule a time to go out there and check with a moisture meter, and inspect.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Actually Dr. He has about 5 or 6 boxes of the original flooring. I was going to start surgery but decided to wait and let the flooring company do the dirty work. They will be contacting him Monday to schedule a time to go out there and check with a moisture meter, and inspect.


Wow thats lucky. It all about stop loss now. Cut out the damaged area and keep it from spreading. If Andy is right you might be tiling the kitchen.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Wow thats lucky. It all about stop loss now. Cut out the damaged area and keep it from spreading. If Andy is right you might be tiling the kitchen.


Their is no damage in the kitchen, the damage is in the middle of the living room, about 30 feet away from the kitchen. The reason I don't think it's from my kitchen remodel.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

If its a slab leak we will just cut the pipe off form under the house and reroute through the ceiling or walls. But that only if its water pipe if its drain pipe the home owner and I will be signing a new contract.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Living room is schweet! Yank that flooring. Find the issue and get the ball rolling to another successful project. Sounds like a great opportunity to save the day and make a buck.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Want to hear what what the result is from Monday's "discovery" work. Check back,OK?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

olzo55 said:


> Want to hear what what the result is from Monday's "discovery" work. Check back,OK?


I mis-wrote, the flooring company will be calling Monday to schedule a time for inspection, but absolutely I will keep everybody posted, even if its my work that failed, I will suck it up and admit that sh..t happens then fix it. This HO started out as as client but we have become friends over the years, our families BBQ together and all that. He will be taken care of one way or another.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Come Monday you will be able to bask in the warm glow of my genius as they find out that the slab was built on dirt, then a layer of 6 mil Visqueen, then on TOP of that Visqueen 2-4" of sand.
> They will also determine that the water that is infiltrating under the slab and is migrating to the two locations and causing the damage is being wicked through the slab edge and traveling through the sand layer between the visqueen and the slab.
> 
> And you will all glorify me, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....cough...cough...choke...cough.
> ...


This brings up a question regarding where the visqueen should be placed. In the new CalGreen building code it calls for slab on grade design to have no sand at all, just crushed rock with the vapor barrier on top of that and then the concrete, the reasoning being that the rock provides a capillary break to prevent water from getting into the slab.

In discussions regarding this it's been pointed out that this seems to be a recipe for a bunch of holes in the vapor barrier as it's necessary to walk around on the vapor barrier when setting the rebar (or mesh) and when placing the concrete.

The detail we've seen most commonly is for a slab to be on the grade with 2" of sand above that, the vapor barrier and then 2" of sand above that which the concrete sits on, the thinking being the sand is there to protect the vapor barrier and also by wetting the sand it slows down the curing of the concrete with the sand encapsulated by the concrete on one side and the vapor barrier on the other.

I'm curious to get an idea of what you recommend and detail out as it's such an important part of the design. Not trying to hijack the thread here but it does seem to tie in with the moisture issue that's been raised.


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## Taurus Flooring (Jun 1, 2006)

It's funny how deceiving pictures can be. To me, it looks like vinyl flooring with the seams popping open.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

maybe they should set gravel, Ditra, then concrete. :laughing: But there are other membranes that work just as well.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Rio said:


> This brings up a question regarding where the visqueen should be placed. In the new CalGreen building code it calls for slab on grade design to have no sand at all, just crushed rock with the vapor barrier on top of that and then the concrete, the reasoning being that the rock provides a capillary break to prevent water from getting into the slab.
> 
> In discussions regarding this it's been pointed out that this seems to be a recipe for a bunch of holes in the vapor barrier as it's necessary to walk around on the vapor barrier when setting the rebar (or mesh) and when placing the concrete.
> 
> ...



According to Dr. Joe Lstiburek, (my hero) you can walk on the vapor barrier with golf cleats before pouring the concrete without any appreciable effect on the characteristics of the VB.

Andy.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> According to Dr. Joe Lstiburek, (my hero) you can walk on the vapor barrier with golf cleats before pouring the concrete without any appreciable effect on the characteristics of the VB....Andy.


If you want a tough VB use this stuff....:thumbsup:
http://www.stegoindustries.com/

Sand, if used, under VB, Concrete on top of VB.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

EmmCeeDee said:


> Is there a dog in the house? Same theory as the cat but no odor. My flooring guy told me about that one.


No pets or kids


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## amandacairos (Nov 28, 2012)

*Re: Floor Buckling After 7 Years*

For sure it's moisture, that has crept in the flooring from somewhere with continuous seepage of water.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

On one of my homes we had water in the center of a room that had no plumbing, a tile floor. Water migrated in from the outside during our rare rains. It showed up about 8' from the outside wall. We had properly established positive drainage. 

All of which is to say, wet floors are not necessarily a result of a plumbing leak.


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## adamsb (Aug 25, 2005)

I've seen a swimming pool leak and cause this problem.. LONG STORY SHORT! If that's any help.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

5 pages and NO ONE has stated the Obvious...:blink:

Global Warming....

Glacier melted up through the concrete...:whistling



Californiadecks I have been stalking this thread.... Waiting to find out just what is causing it...:laughing:


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

It was Col. Mustard in the basement with a garden hose


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

thom said:


> On one of my homes we had water in the center of a room that had no plumbing, a tile floor. Water migrated in from the outside during our rare rains. It showed up about 8' from the outside wall. We had properly established positive drainage.
> 
> All of which is to say, wet floors are not necessarily a result of a plumbing leak.


That's a good point, even though we eliminated the island sink as the culprit, we still have a water issue and everybody just assumes its plumbing, but they have an in ground jacuzzi, a retaining wall separating them with the neighbors whose home is above theirs. It's very possible that irrigation water from the neighbors home is migrating over.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

MAULEMALL said:


> 5 pages and NO ONE has stated the Obvious...:blink:
> 
> Global Warming....
> 
> ...


If you think about it, it could be polar ice melt. That's it I'm purchasing a Prius.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

I guess he could dig around the foundation to see if there is any water close to the surface.

How will he determine if the watermain connection is leaking? Is it out side the house or inside? If it were a watermain leak it should get progressively worse. After all it is under pressure. And he could tell if his side of the connection were leaking simply by watching his meter with all the faucets shut off. Street side should have a damp area around the meter.

I think it may be more likely that it's some drainage issue outside.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

So what's the update? Where is the water coming from?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

olzo55 said:


> So what's the update? Where is the water coming from?


The water is coming from under the slab nowhere near any of my work. It would of been funny if it weren't a PITA for my client. So here's the story: 

Insurance sends out a leak detection service with high dollar sound detection devices. He said "yep it's coming from the new kitchen (my work)" so the insurance sends out a plumber to double check he says "yep it's coming from the new kitchen the plumbing under the slab going to the island. Because it was that particular area he had to jackhammer up the slab. He does tear out the slab and low and behold its not my plumbing. Mind you my Home Owner was livid after the noise the mess and the mistake.

So where was it? It was right where I assumed it was in the first place it was an under slab pipe coming from the main. Insurance is giving them 19,000 bucks to replace the flooring. It was an expensive Cherry wood.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

Through all of that headache, what flooring are they going to pick, and if wood, what preventive measures are they going to take under wood ?


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

So how did the water from the under-slab leak get through the vapor barrier?

Andy.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> So how did the water from the under-slab leak get through the vapor barrier?
> 
> Andy.


It happens all the time, even my plumber was telling his own home had two slab leaks. However he wasn't the plumber on his own home.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

MIKE ANTONETTI said:


> Through all of that headache, what flooring are they going to pick, and if wood, what preventive measures are they going to take under wood ?


I'm not sure yet? I also think they will do a repipe and cut a reroute.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

MIKE ANTONETTI said:


> Through all of that headache, what flooring are they going to pick, and if wood, what preventive measures are they going to take under wood ?


The last floor was installed the right way, however, I don't believe any kind of floor installation measures can guard against a slab leak. So rerouting the waterlines can prevent it in the future.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Mike,
Have they dug the pipe up yet?

Just wondering if the pipe was punctured or if it was corroded through contact with something.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

olzo55 said:


> Mike,
> Have they dug the pipe up yet?
> 
> Just wondering if the pipe was punctured or if it was corroded through contact with something.


I don't think they will ever know, because they now will just cut off from under slab and re-pipe. Although I would be curious to know also since I live in the same neighborhood, with the same soil more then likely. My plumber says its pretty common to get pin holes in copper, that's why everything is going pex.


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## harrymontana (Dec 27, 2012)

this plank is expanding and this is always due to absorbing moisture. This piece has not been accurately dried and so you can make an issue with the seller.


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