# another craigslist electrician w/ pictures



## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/sks/983544262.html

I'm sort of perplexed why this guy is posting pictures of this?


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## duckdown (Dec 16, 2008)

An example of neat work ???


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Jeeze, WHAT is it with California and losers??? 
$35/hr???? Does this guy have even the remotest of clues?? 
Not only is he hurting everyone else by undercutting them, he is shooting himself in the foot. 

That is residential side job money around here.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

I dunno, I may be wrong.. but it is really smart to put all those small metal parts on top of the open cabinet like that? I mean, what if something fell inside and he hasn't locked out the supply yet... or turned it back on and find something had fallen inside there..


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## SonoranShocker (Oct 28, 2008)

I dont know, call me crazy but I think that this may be speedy's biggest pet pieve...lol.

Dont move to Cali speedy, I think eventually you would get tried for murder.:laughing:


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## curranelectric (Sep 25, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Jeeze, WHAT is it with California and losers???
> $35/hr???? Does this guy have even the remotest of clues??
> Not only is he hurting everyone else by undercutting them, he is shooting himself in the foot.
> 
> That is residential side job money around here.


There are so many Guys out here looking to do electrical work that they are charging so low to get a job. To top it off there are a lots of unlicensed electrician out here too. Because of the New House building market that took a dump a lot of guys who worked as electrictan are out the doing jobs that LICENSED ELECTRICIAN should be doing. I guess if you can change a plug you can be a licensed electrician. I went out to quote a 200 amp service change. After I told them what I would do and charge them for the job they told me that they had a guy that would do it for $600.00 and if I wanted the job I would have to come in less. I asked if that included the permit. They said that the electrician told them they didn't need one because it was less then $1000.00:w00t:. I asked them if he was licensed and they told me he said because the job was under $1000.00 he did not have to be licensed just certified. Some people are not to brite. I run into this alot:furious:. Thank god I have a good customer base and referrals that I don't have to Advertise that much. But sometimes I have to when things get slow.


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## BKFranks (Feb 19, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Jeeze, WHAT is it with California and losers???
> $35/hr???? Does this guy have even the remotest of clues??
> Not only is he hurting everyone else by undercutting them, he is shooting himself in the foot.
> 
> That is residential side job money around here.


I've seen a number of people charging only $25 and you know most people on CL are looking for the cheapest price. So, who do you think the home owner is going to hire?


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

duckdown said:


> An example of neat work ???


Yeah at 1st glance. Here is what i don't like, doesn't mean it won't pass inspection.

1) 2" offset nipple,( top of panel). 
2) J-nails on 1/2 conduit.
3) wood blocks under juntion box.
4) actually installing a j-box, at this point. a used LB NICE! refer to #3
4a) no conduit support off transformer
5) used parts everywhere.( maybe not wrong, if owner agrees.But he's sellling us this job).
6) parallel nuetrals and hots landed on same lugs. won't pass inspection.
7) Parallel conductors off the transformer sizing/conduit fill? I rarely run parallel conductors in same conduit or something this small. not saying this is wrong.
8) No grounds, wouldn't hurt.
9) Ground rod, not looking good for placement or conduit run.
10) the splices in the junction box, there is the tap rule, anybody have a problem with this?
11) transformer have clearance issues with ceiling? I need to keep a code book, out of time.


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## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Jeeze, WHAT is it with California and losers???
> $35/hr???? Does this guy have even the remotest of clues??
> Not only is he hurting everyone else by undercutting them, he is shooting himself in the foot.
> 
> That is residential side job money around here.


I'm not trying to pick a fight, but that is kinda the way a market works. Supply and demand. Right now there is low demand and high supply. Only an idiot would pay a higher price for the exact same product. That is where the poor quality issues come in. Any Builder/GC should be smart enough to check references and look at previous work performed before they hire someone. If someone is willing to take the risk of hiring this guy just to save money, then they get what they deserve. Guys like him only survive for a short period and they never capture a large portion of the market share for a long period of time. 

OTOH, in talking to subs lately it seems that many don't seem to understand the nature of their services. We just went through a period of rapid inflation that resulted in people willing to OVERPAY for services. Just like the final product that I produce has dropped in value, the service that each sub provides has also dropped in value. If the home I'm building is selling for 30% less, then I'm gonna pay 30% less for each service, including electrical. Otherwise, I won't make any money so I might as well not build the home. So the very same electrician who was charging me $60/hr (I live in a lower cost market), now should only charge around $42/hr for the exact same service. 

For some reason, many subs feel that their hourly wages should never decrease, like a factory worker or something. What they don't realize is that they are in a very unique position. In a normal business market, slow periods don't result in pay cuts, but instead there are layoffs. In contractor jobs, there aren't layoffs and very few skilled contractors leave the business. The only natural result is a dramatic decrease in pay. It is something we all have to deal with.

Anyway, like I said, not trying to pick a fight. Just my Finance/Economics degrees talking I guess.


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

Cache said:


> I'm not trying to pick a fight, but that is kinda the way a market works. Supply and demand. Right now there is low demand and high supply. Only an idiot would pay a higher price for the exact same product. That is where the poor quality issues come in. Any Builder/GC should be smart enough to check references and look at previous work performed before they hire someone. If someone is willing to take the risk of hiring this guy just to save money, then they get what they deserve. Guys like him only survive for a short period and they never capture a large portion of the market share for a long period of time.
> 
> OTOH, in talking to subs lately it seems that many don't seem to understand the nature of their services. We just went through a period of rapid inflation that resulted in people willing to OVERPAY for services. Just like the final product that I produce has dropped in value, the service that each sub provides has also dropped in value. If the home I'm building is selling for 30% less, then I'm gonna pay 30% less for each service, including electrical. Otherwise, I won't make any money so I might as well not build the home. So the very same electrician who was charging me $60/hr (I live in a lower cost market), now should only charge around $42/hr for the exact same service.
> 
> ...


Its "builders" like you that are the reason we no longer do any sub work. My cost of doing business, insurance, overhead, materials, and cost of living keep going up, why should I get paid 30% less for my services????? Its for this reason, that hacks and only hacks will be left as subs, and anyone decent will be out selling work on their own, and all you builders are just gonna be left with low quality mostly non english speaking subs. And when the market turns around your gonna be SOL cause good subs arent gonna want to work for ya


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Its "builders" like you that are the reason we no longer do any sub work. My cost of doing business, insurance, overhead, materials, and cost of living keep going up, why should I get paid 30% less for my services????? Its for this reason, that hacks and only hacks will be left as subs, and anyone decent will be out selling work on their own, and all you builders are just gonna be left with low quality mostly non english speaking subs. And when the market turns around your gonna be SOL cause good subs arent gonna want to work for ya


Patrick, though I understand your feelings, you are being both harsh and naive. 

GC's are forced to bottom feed because customers are bottom feeding. Those GC's that fail to provide what the market demands will fail. Hell, the way things are going, many who do provide what the market demands will fail. 

Ponder this. If we stopped building houses altogether, the current supply of empty homes on the market plus those that will be coming on the market as a result of foreclosures and boomers selling their second homes will produce a 2-1/2 year supply of homes. That's right, it will take 2-1/2 years to work off the excess inventory if we don't build another house in the meantime. The tanking economy could make this even worse. 

Your area may not fit the national numbers but, construction will become increasingly cut-throat as a large number of unemployed guys become desperate for income. 

I mothballed the company after 30 years of business in September of 2007. It's looking increasingly likely that I'm retired and my business is finished. Fortunately I did well during my 30 years and can afford retirement.


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## walkerj (May 14, 2007)

Cache said:


> I'm not trying to pick a fight, but that is kinda the way a market works. Supply and demand. Right now there is low demand and high supply. Only an idiot would pay a higher price for the exact same product. That is where the poor quality issues come in. Any Builder/GC should be smart enough to check references and look at previous work performed before they hire someone. If someone is willing to take the risk of hiring this guy just to save money, then they get what they deserve. Guys like him only survive for a short period and they never capture a large portion of the market share for a long period of time.
> 
> OTOH, in talking to subs lately it seems that many don't seem to understand the nature of their services. We just went through a period of rapid inflation that resulted in people willing to OVERPAY for services. Just like the final product that I produce has dropped in value, the service that each sub provides has also dropped in value. If the home I'm building is selling for 30% less, then I'm gonna pay 30% less for each service, including electrical. Otherwise, I won't make any money so I might as well not build the home. So the very same electrician who was charging me $60/hr (I live in a lower cost market), now should only charge around $42/hr for the exact same service.
> 
> ...


Fight picked.:boxing:
You are the problem.
The nature of our services(all contractors and trades) is to provide people with safe installations that are up to code and legal.
Contractors have to pay for insurance, labor, all the overhead associated, and still make profit to feed their family.
How can I get a job if there are twenty unlicensed guys willing to do the job for cheaper under the table.:wallbash:
You can stick your Finance/Economics degrees up your a$$:furious:


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

I see it from both ends though, we used to take on work as a sub, and also have a lot of sub labor in addition to my full time employees. I would never even consider demanding my subs work cheaper. I have all great subs, that will show up for me on very short notice because they know I will never jerk them around the way builders feel they have the privilege to.

I guess the main difference is in new construction the owners dont necesarily stress the details and its harder to sell yourself as high quality, where as when we go into a home as a specialty contractor we can stress quality and we can continue to sell at a higher dollar value.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Am I wrong to think that there's not enough slack on this wire? 

Or is this box bigger than 8"?










*300.14 Length of Free Conductors at Outlets, Junc- 
tions, and Switch Points. *

At least 150 mm (6 in.) of free 
conductor, measured from the point in the box where it 
emerges from its raceway or cable sheath, shall be left at each 
outlet, junction, and switch point for splices or the connection 
of luminaires (ﬁxtures) or devices. Where the opening to an 
outlet, junction, or switch point is less than 200 mm (8 in.) in 
any dimension, each conductor shall be long enough to extend 
at least 75 mm (3 in.) outside the opening. 
Exception: Conductors that are not spliced or terminated 
at the outlet, junction, or switch point shall not be required 
to comply with 300.14.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

magnettica are you using a online electrical code and what is the site if so?
looks bigger than 8" but good call, even if it passes inspection, it's piss poor craftmanship. If you keep looking you see so much wrong and theres alot i can't see. Hell i doubt the transformers are bolted down.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I'm probably nit-picking, but shouldn't there at least be a bonding jumper from the emt connector to the J-Box??? 

250.96


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Cache said:


> I'm not trying to pick a fight, but that is kinda the way a market works. Supply and demand. Right now there is low demand and high supply. Only an idiot would pay a higher price for the exact same product. That is where the poor quality issues come in. Any Builder/GC should be smart enough to check references and look at previous work performed before they hire someone. If someone is willing to take the risk of hiring this guy just to save money, then they get what they deserve. Guys like him only survive for a short period and they never capture a large portion of the market share for a long period of time.
> 
> OTOH, in talking to subs lately it seems that many don't seem to understand the nature of their services. We just went through a period of rapid inflation that resulted in people willing to OVERPAY for services. Just like the final product that I produce has dropped in value, the service that each sub provides has also dropped in value. If the home I'm building is selling for 30% less, then I'm gonna pay 30% less for each service, including electrical. Otherwise, I won't make any money so I might as well not build the home. So the very same electrician who was charging me $60/hr (I live in a lower cost market), now should only charge around $42/hr for the exact same service.
> 
> ...


Much as everybody hates to believe it, but what he says is true.

There are certainly GCs who have created a bad name for all GCs by being cheap as bastards, but that doesn't mean that all GCs are and it doesn't mean that if a GC has to be competetive that he is one of those cheap ass bastards.

Guys that work mostly as subs are insulated from the market place to some degree by the nature of who they work for. If they aren't on the front line dealing directly with the customers they sometimes can get shocked by not being aware of what's going on as quickly as they should.

If anyone really thinks Cache is really off base please take a moment to explain the alternative of how it's supposed to work cause he is right in regard to the market forces and how they dictate prices. 

If you're a sub that in the past has always charged let's say $60 an hour and all the GCs are landing work now at rates 10% lower then a year ago how can it work that it won't trickle down to you as a sub?

Ultimately of course as a sub you say who you will and won't work for. So you say to GC #1, I pass on your job because you aren't selling your jobs at a high enough rate to allow me to work at my normal $60.00 an hour. You also have to pass on GC#2, #3, #4, #5.... and so on. You can't find anybody who will pay your $60.00 rate anymore. 

That's really how it works, it isn't a GC telling you to lower your price, it's you discovering you have to lower your price to work, which is exactly what the GC is doing.

So how does it work then if not that way?


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> I'm probably nit-picking, but shouldn't there at least be a bonding jumper from the emt connector to the J-Box???
> 
> 250.96


Not in California!


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## Bubbles (Sep 27, 2007)

*jumper*

I don't see any concentric/eccentric rings left. That might of been ok if I was looking at right pic?? As to everything else? It would pass here is West Virginia though..


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

I myself don't like the lack of an EGC and the hard pipe to the transformers. And is that a ground rod on the left of the transformer in the first pic? Were there no water lines or building steel to attach to? I wonder what size OCP is provided on the primary side, and how far those "tap" conductors run.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Some guys get artwork and business confused.


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> That's not an 8' lid, and have you looked up the dimensions of that NQOD panel in the catalog? I did. Do you know the total height of a 2" factory 90? I do. It's still a legal install, even if your dimensions are correct (they are not). Even if the top of the panel were at 7 or 8 feet, the top most breaker will not be above 6' 7".


The hight may be okay but the clear working space is not. The 90 and LB comming out of the front of the panel extend past the 6 inch maximum. ART.110.26


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

silvertree said:


> Your missing the point!
> I'm no electrician, so looking at that picture I see clean and neat work.
> Like it or not, the guy got his message across to the homeowner.


What message is that?
That he can install a 480v step down transformer in a house :blink:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> Some guys get artwork and business confused.


Let's talk about that LB on the secondary and 110.26.

In my book, it's a violation ~ that's business.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Celtic said:


> What message is that?
> That he can install a 480v step down transformer in a house :blink:


No, my point is homeowners don't know the difference. Its a dumb ad, and its not residential work, but do you think the HO knows the difference?
Its obviously some electrical work.
I'm not promoting this guy, I'm just saying that people will look at those photos and think the electrical is neatly done.
There's a guy here that sells granite for tops, his promo piece is a photo of a mountain in China. His pitch is his Granite is better because his family owns the mountain. He did pretty good at a home show I was at. Sell the sizzle, not the steak I guesss.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

silvertree said:


> No, my point is homeowners don't know the difference. Its a dumb ad, and its not residential work, but do you think the HO knows the difference?
> Its obviously some electrical work.
> I'm not promoting this guy, I'm just saying that people will look at those photos and think the electrical is neatly done.
> There's a guy here that sells granite for tops, his promo piece is a photo of a mountain in China. His pitch is his Granite is better because his family owns the mountain. He did pretty good at a home show I was at. Sell the sizzle, not the steak I guesss.


Yes i agree 100%, that is why i posted this in the Electrical forum, because this post would not make any sense to non-professional Electricians and especially HO'ers.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Let's talk about that LB on the secondary and 110.26.
> 
> In my book, it's a violation ~ that's business.


Yes this is a violation, I completey missed. It's obvious this job won't even pass inspection.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

I learned something here. I know basic electric and rely on my electrical contractor to make me look good for everything else, and he does.

But after reading the posts on this thread I realize more than ever how easily communication in any form influences perception. You guys (electricians) can see the flaws in this guys work, I see a reasonably neat work area and a clean (as in simple) electrical work. Tape is neatly done, pictures are clear ect.

Plug in a toaster and you die, just kidding. But I don't have time to learn how to inspect non compliant work, I have enough trouble being a carpenter.

Minneapolis is full of guys who do work like that, and they get away with it for years. For me, I only work with the good guys, I don't argue cost and in the end I feel like I'm saving a bundle knowing my jobs were done properly and safely.
Everything electric goes great except for those arc fault circuits we put in older homes. Even those have gone well for the couple of years.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

silvertree said:


> I learned something here.
> 
> You guys (electricians) can see the flaws in this guys work, I see a reasonably neat work area and a clean (as in simple) electrical work. Tape is neatly done, pictures are clear ect.


It's easy to bash someone's work when you didn't do it.

Even on other electrical forums, someone will post a picture and it rarely - if ever - gets a comment from the peanut gallery of the install being 100% compliant.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Ok, I'll bite... in this installation what part of 110.26 did he violate? 

Is it the J-Box mounted behind the transformer?


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

This is definately not a model installation & I agree with HBElectrics list of things I don't like,even though it may pass Inspection. Maybe the code has changed since I worked as an Industrial Electrician , but I don;t see anything wrong with that LB on the secondary. We hooked up many of them up with a nipple up to 6" with the LB Condulet. 
I do not like the emt conduit, especially up on that Mezzadine transformer. There will be people working up there sometimes & standing on it. etc.. We only used rigid conduit & supported it appropriatley. Of course we can find fault with any work & even though this might work I would not want it to reflect on me................


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

Magnettica said:


> Ok, I'll bite... in this installation what part of 110.26 did he violate?
> 
> Is it the J-Box mounted behind the transformer?


clear working space in front of the panel, you'd be standing on the Lb working in the panel.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Bkessler said:


> clear working space in front of the panel, you'd be standing on the Lb working in the panel.


Well, not really, but yes, a violation. Now I see it.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Ok, I'll bite... in this installation what part of 110.26 did he violate?


Look at how the secondary exits the transformer and enters the panel bottom...the LB...the sweep...


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Almost like a Mike Holt book :lol:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Almost like a Mike Holt book :lol:



LOL

:laughing:


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

And the correct answer is what, move it over to get a 30" clear workspace.
I'm not going home until this is clear to me.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

silvertree said:


> And the correct answer is what, move it over to get a 30" clear workspace.
> I'm not going home until this is clear to me.


I would have come out of the side of the panel with a flex 90 and flexed into the side of the transformer with another flex 90. I don't like hard piping to a transformer.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

I was going to comment on the secondary of the mezzanine transformer being over 10 feet, but it looks like the top pipe is a whole stick, so D'oh!


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Thanks, I may be a wiseass, but I'm all for learning new things.


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