# so i just talked to one of my coworkers



## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

curapa said:


> BS,... if you are operating a business, then you need insurance. What happens when you accidentally damage a customers property beyond your financial means of repair.
> 
> Do you have a state and local license. I realize you may not need a contractors license but a business license is a must pretty much everywhere.


 you dont need a license in massachusetts.


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## curapa (Oct 8, 2007)

freemason21 said:


> you dont need a license in massachusetts.


 
Are you saying I can open a store anywhere in Massachusetts and not have to apply for any type of license at a state or a local level?


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## mikec (Jan 2, 2007)

freemason21 said:


> if work picks up good over the next few months i will get insurance and start running a more legitimate business, but there is no reason for me to get insurance now, and in masssachusetts you dont need a license.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

freemason21 said:


> if work picks up good over the next few months i will get insurance and start running a more legitimate business, but there is no reason for me to get insurance now, and in masssachusetts you dont need a license.


Well boyz, there ya go, RIGHT THERE is the guy taking work from ya, perfect example of the mentality of what makes a hack and hack and why we that follow the rules are losing jobs since we have costs factored in to BE LEGIT....

so ahh...somebody PM me with the lynch'n date, i'll bring the camcorder and we can show the world what happens to guys taking food away from our families/our crews families:thumbsup: I NEVER used to be a whiner, but i'm seriously thinking i may start calling into the city for every unnamed truck i see sitting in a driveway with no permit showing in the window...just to be sure and make life bad for the HO and the hack.:w00t:


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

freemason21 said:


> if work picks up good over the next few months i will get insurance and start running a more legitimate business, but there is no reason for me to get insurance now, and in masssachusetts you dont need a license.


 
If you are doing work on your on two things you really need to do so as not to screw up your future. Have insurance. PUT AWAY MONEY TO PAY YOUR TAXES.

No matter how tight things are remember the tax man cometh.

If you are opperating a business your overhead is higher than you now realize. Charge accordingly. Once you charge your customers your lowball price it will be difficult to raise your prices. You will always be "that guy that's not that good but he's cheap."


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## rjconstructs (Apr 26, 2009)

Oklahoma doesn't require a contractor to have a business license either. Insurance is optional also.
rj


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I can't imagine Massachusetts NOT requiring a license to do simple contracting! It's the most regulated state in the entire union! Only in Massachusetts do you need $40.00 just to park your car at a football game (Gilette Stadium) and now this guy comes on here saying he doesn't even need a license to register a business? 

Puhleeze!


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## XanadooLTD (Oct 6, 2007)

Right on, sad but true. It would be very scary without insurance. Something (thank god) that you dont need all the time, but is there to help you out in different circumstances.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

freemason21 said:


> if work picks up good over the next few months i will get insurance and start running a more legitimate business, but there is no reason for me to get insurance now, and in masssachusetts you dont need a license.


If your contracted amount exceeds a total value of $500 per job or anual contracts exceed $5000 you are required to have a HIC license. If you are performing structural alterations you are required to have a Building Supervisors license.

If I where you I would check into what my state actually requires of me before operating a potentially illegal outfit and making blanket statements which are not entirely true.

If you do not understand the importance of calculating overhead, having insurance, calculating your rates, setting appropriate profit margins, and tax withholding you have no business running a business. There is no difference between you and the countless hacks cutting your bosses throat.


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

IHI said:


> Well boyz, there ya go, RIGHT THERE is the guy taking work from ya, perfect example of the mentality of what makes a hack and hack and why we that follow the rules are losing jobs since we have costs factored in to BE LEGIT....
> 
> so ahh...somebody PM me with the lynch'n date, i'll bring the camcorder and we can show the world what happens to guys taking food away from our families/our crews families:thumbsup: I NEVER used to be a whiner, but i'm seriously thinking i may start calling into the city for every unnamed truck i see sitting in a driveway with no permit showing in the window...just to be sure and make life bad for the HO and the hack.:w00t:


 yeah im taking away food from your famalies hahahaha. you are such a coward talking so much crap from a computer. i'm not taking a dollar from you. want to know what i have for jobs going on? im taking off wallpaper in a room thats maybe 12x15 saturday, and i have to shingle two gable ends on a house. i replaced sill on one window, trimmed out a window and door. whoopdie do. i think theres maybe 14 squares of shingles at the max. i'm sorry, i didnt meant to take all that money from you. maybe you should be looking at the monetary system, and how money and economics work before you go running your mouth on a messageboard. im not taking anything from you and if i could work for a builder who had solid work, i would, but the reality is there isnt. i have a mortgage and bills JUST LIKE YOU. i'll call my mortgage company right now and let them know i wont be paying them for a while because i "TOOK YER JEHB" 

get real buddy. go do some research on how the money system in america works.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

*My in laws love me but they hate my "jersey prices"*

that's strange. No licence in MA? Then why are my in laws begging me to move up there and "take the test" that my brother in law cant pass?



they recently told me that if I was already a contractor that I don't even need to test. Izzat true?


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

A W Smith said:


> that's strange. No licence in MA? Then why are my in laws begging me to move up there and "take the test" that my brother in law cant pass?
> 
> 
> 
> they recently told me that if I was already a contractor that I don't even need to test. Izzat true?


 he's probably talking about a supervisors license, or more then likely a general contractors license. the GC license is extremely hard to get. for the work i do, i don't need either of those license's.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

lot of posts here and I didn't read them all...but I'll speak from the perspective of a boss hiring guys and knowing people both inside and outside of the church who are out of work: everyone has their own mindset of whether or not they'll get kicked or kick back when out of work. I'm sure a lot of guys are drawing unemployment and happy with it-I've 'interviewed' guys who were exactly that-content w/ the insurance check. The kicker is that it was the wife who was trying to get the old man off the coach. 

I do not advocate doing it illegally, but either the OP is gonig to bust his but and make his own way or let society send him a check. If he chooses to gain work from CL, I urge him (and others) to use it as a gateway to become legitimate-license, taxes, insurance, etc...not many guys have the resources to jump in with both feet and get it all, shoot, my tool collection continues to grow as I grow 

final thought, how many guys pulling pizza delivery jobs to make it until times pick up-those who do are the go getters, the ones with their head screwed on straight.


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

72chevy4x4 said:


> lot of posts here and I didn't read them all...but I'll speak from the perspective of a boss hiring guys and knowing people both inside and outside of the church who are out of work: everyone has their own mindset of whether or not they'll get kicked or kick back when out of work. I'm sure a lot of guys are drawing unemployment and happy with it-I've 'interviewed' guys who were exactly that-content w/ the insurance check. The kicker is that it was the wife who was trying to get the old man off the coach.
> 
> I do not advocate doing it illegally, but either the OP is gonig to bust his but and make his own way or let society send him a check. If he chooses to gain work from CL, I urge him (and others) to use it as a gateway to become legitimate-license, taxes, insurance, etc...not many guys have the resources to jump in with both feet and get it all, shoot, my tool collection continues to grow as I grow
> 
> final thought, how many guys pulling pizza delivery jobs to make it until times pick up-those who do are the go getters, the ones with their head screwed on straight.


 im gonna be working for a landscaper part time starting next week. i hate landscaping, but its the only trade hiring right now at all.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

72chevy4x4 said:


> _*I do not advocate doing it illegally*_, but either the OP is gonig to bust his but and make his own way or let society send him a check. If he chooses to gain work from CL, I urge him (and others) to use it as a gateway to become legitimate-license, taxes, insurance, etc..._*not many guys have the resources to jump in with both feet and get it all, shoot, my tool collection continues to grow as I grow *_


Then don't advocate doing it illegally. If you don't have the resources to do the minimum requirements of the state you're operating in then you should not try and start a business. Find a job and work for someone else until you have saved enough to do so. 

If you can't come up with enough money to procure a license (business or contractors), set up the business legitimately be it sole proprietor, LLC, or Corporate then the odds of your success are very low. If you don't understand the basic principles of business and why it is important to follow them from day one you will not succeed no matter how good a tradesman you are. All you are doing is taking work away from legitimate businesses and potentially contributing to rising unemployment as these businesses are then forced to lay off their labor forces. Try to look at the big picture and beyond what you're doing at the moment.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

Cut the kid some slack.... he's tryin to keep his head above water. License's are for guys looking to take down real jobs... I know you want real jobs... for now... keep it simple and keep your face out there being seen. Dont do anything stupi/risky... you owe it to all of us to do good work and stop the hack rep we get from boners over selling their skills and quality. BE HONEST with customers... pick up the small work and admit you dont have a lic yet. 

If any one tells you you cant work with out one, tell them you'll be right over with your sh*t and you like your bacon crispy, shirts folded neatly and bills paid on time... Not every one has a lic. We might as well get used to it. If you got one great... use it... if you dont, act accordingly. Small jobs.

You think about maybe helping your boss somehow get a few jobs? Ask him for some cards and beat bushes for him/yourself. He'll appreciate the gesture... Times are tough man.... do yo thang, but be careful.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

freemason21 said:


> he's probably talking about a supervisors license, or more then likely a general contractors license. the GC license is extremely hard to get. for the work i do, i don't need either of those license's.



Can you pull permits and write and enforce home improvement contracts? without the supervisor or contractor license?

never mind

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ocatopi...umer&L2=Home+Improvement+Contracting&sid=Eoca


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

Some pretty harsh stuff guys. He's 21. He aint got a chance of stealing your work, ya'll know that. You just find it unbearable that he's not forking out those ins premiums that we have to. I dont have a problem with the fella workin odds and ends. Make your ends meet Bro. Forget a business, youre not ready, sounds like you know that.... keep it simple... keep your bills paid, keep your credit straight, you're gonna need it.

Really guys, dont be pissed that the kids not Mr. Big Show Legit.... like all you are. Where did you start? all ya'll didnt have a lic for the first nail you drove so shut the hell up. Give the kid a break, no one did for me either, so prove these hard asses wrong. Make it bro, build it up and get legit, and come back and make us proud. I got faith in you. It takes time. You'll get there with ambition and goals. Work every day... even if it's for free to be getting seen....

Hard asses loved that line.... talk about cutting throats... can you under bid free? Hell no, tell me i'm cutting throats..... i tell you draw back your neck from the knife. I didnt put your neck there.

There's not enough work to go round... we all know that... stop worrying about some lil guy gettin a job or 2 and worry more about pumping up your own business. this is america folks, the land of opportunity... if your so worried about kids starting a small biz with out insurance maybe you ought to loan him the money. C'mon... what's he doin you didnt do?

Come over to my thread in GEN DISCUSSION and look at the posts there. Some good ideas of how to shake a few bushes. Some pep talk and the like...Good input there... seems like you got off on the wrong foot here with some of these hard nosed guys.... they're alright guys... just stressed out i guess over the slow work. But the info they are pushin at you is true... its important to be legit... that's how come insurance is so damn high and lic are so hard to get... little hack half ass friggin maggots that do the work and have no clue and just wanna rip folks off... i dont get that from you, you seem ok... you'll be ok. That thread is in GEN DISCUSSION under who's keepin busy. Good luck bro... feel free to Private message me. These guys read too much into what youre trying to do.


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

21gun said:


> Cut the kid some slack.... he's tryin to keep his head above water. License's are for guys looking to take down real jobs... I know you want real jobs... for now... keep it simple and keep your face out there being seen. Dont do anything stupi/risky... you owe it to all of us to do good work and stop the hack rep we get from boners over selling their skills and quality. BE HONEST with customers... pick up the small work and admit you dont have a lic yet.
> 
> If any one tells you you cant work with out one, tell them you'll be right over with your sh*t and you like your bacon crispy, shirts folded neatly and bills paid on time... Not every one has a lic. We might as well get used to it. If you got one great... use it... if you dont, act accordingly. Small jobs.
> 
> You think about maybe helping your boss somehow get a few jobs? Ask him for some cards and beat bushes for him/yourself. He'll appreciate the gesture... Times are tough man.... do yo thang, but be careful.


 i appreciate the words of encouragement. my ad says im unlicensed and my ad and its says handyman work, carpentry panting etc. anyone reading my ad will know im not a big time contractor building homes. again if i cant handle it a job, i pass it on to someone else. case and point; i got a kitchen remodel job, and i immediately told them its not something i have much experience with, i called my friend up, and forwarded the work to him. i'll still be making money on the job working for him. he's licensed and insured.


i have tried to help my boss as best i can, i asked him for cards to put on bulletin boards but he has never followed up on giving me a stack of them. his wife is the CEO of some steel company, i dont think he really cares if his business slows way down or not. maybe i'm wrong but i'll never know.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Why cut him slack? He needs to hear the truth not a bunch of b.s. You can lose your crisp bacon, neatly pressed shirts, and have all your bills fall behind just as quickly on small jobs as you can big jobs.You need to understand all the aspects of running jobs and being in business. If you haven't managed your money well enough to set up legitimately how are you going to handle your customers money regardless of the job size?

He still needs to know what to charge and why to charge that. This is a cut throat business and if you don't know what you're doing on all sides of it you can get in trouble fast. There are a lot of HO's out there that will eat you alive if you don't protect yourself. Not to mention other contractors.

Mason can you afford to file a lien and eat your $499.99 dollars if your client doesn't pay you? Will that put you in an even worse situation than you are in now? If you do a job for $501.00 and your client knows the regulations in your state and turns you in, can you afford the fines? If you take on a job and your clients kid comes running through the work area, trips over your tool belt and breaks a leg can you afford to pay for it out of pocket? Do you have a contract that protects you? If so is it enforceable? Are you sure? You couldn't afford to set up legitimately so I doubt you had a lawyer review it. When you file your taxes did you with hold enough back or are you going to end up paying fines and interest? Do you know what you can right off and what you can't? Can you afford to pay an accountant to do it for you? I think you get my point.


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

I won't judge you on what you feel you must do to feed your family but just a little FYI. 

A few years ago my brother and I were in business together. We had a peddler of services license in Duval County and liability insurance. On our third "big" job we remodeled a bathroom. New tub enclosure, wall paper,flooring nothing fancy. Guy was happy,cut us the last inastallment check. 

The next morning went to cash check HO put a stop payment. Wife didn't like HER wallpaper SHE chose.

We did sub work for a large reputable GC in Jax and called the PM for advice. 

US "What LEGAL course of action can we take for our money?"

HIM: Did you touch any plumbing fixtures?

US: Well yes sir, we took off the......

HIM: ARE YOU a licensed plumber?

US: Well no sir but we...

HIM: DO YOU HAVE $10,000 for a fine?

US: No sir we didn't think we.....

HIM: LET IT GO you have learned your lesson.

Even with a Peddler's license we had still stepped over the boundary. It didn't matter that we "didn't know" better. 

DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO to feed your family but know, consequences can and WILL follow. 

The reaper will come to collect. His sickle is sharp and his pay is GAURANTEED!:shutup:


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

21gun said:


> Cut the kid some slack.... he's tryin to keep his head above water. License's are for guys looking to take down real jobs... I know you want real jobs... for now... keep it simple and keep your face out there being seen. Dont do anything stupi/risky... you owe it to all of us to do good work and stop the hack rep we get from boners over selling their skills and quality. BE HONEST with customers... pick up the small work and admit you dont have a lic yet.
> 
> If any one tells you you cant work with out one, tell them you'll be right over with your sh*t and you like your bacon crispy, shirts folded neatly and bills paid on time... Not every one has a lic. We might as well get used to it. If you got one great... use it... if you dont, act accordingly. Small jobs.
> 
> You think about maybe helping your boss somehow get a few jobs? Ask him for some cards and beat bushes for him/yourself. He'll appreciate the gesture... Times are tough man.... do yo thang, but be careful.





ARI001 said:


> Why cut him slack? He needs to hear the truth not a bunch of b.s. You can lose your crisp bacon, neatly pressed shirts, and have all your bills fall behind just as quickly on small jobs as you can big jobs.You need to understand all the aspects of running jobs and being in business. If you haven't managed your money well enough to set up legitimately how are you going to handle your customers money regardless of the job size?
> 
> He still needs to know what to charge and why to charge that. This is a cut throat business and if you don't know what you're doing on all sides of it you can get in trouble fast. There are a lot of HO's out there that will eat you alive if you don't protect yourself. Not to mention other contractors.
> 
> Mason can you afford to file a lien and eat your $499.99 dollars if your client doesn't pay you? Will that put you in an even worse situation than you are in now? If you do a job for $501.00 and your client knows the regulations in your state and turns you in, can you afford the fines? If you take on a job and your clients kid comes running through the work area, trips over your tool belt and breaks a leg can you afford to pay for it out of pocket? Do you have a contract that protects you? If so is it enforceable? Are you sure? You couldn't afford to set up legitimately so I doubt you had a lawyer review it. When you file your taxes did you with hold enough back or are you going to end up paying fines and interest? Do you know what you can right off and what you can't? Can you afford to pay an accountant to do it for you? I think you get my point.


 i am not doing jobs where i'd make over 500 dollars. if a job is going to cost over 500$ then its probably too big of a job that i want to take, and i would be calling a friend of mine to be the lead person on it, and i would work for him.


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

jtpro said:


> I won't judge you on what you feel you must do to feed your family but just a little FYI.
> 
> A few years ago my brother and I were in business together. We had a peddler of services license in Duval County and liability insurance. On our third "big" job we remodeled a bathroom. New tub enclosure, wall paper,flooring nothing fancy. Guy was happy,cut us the last inastallment check.
> 
> ...


 man that really sucks. im not intimidated by someone like that though. big mouths dont scare me, i had a guy come over asking me if i had permits to shingle at this house just last week. let me just say he wont be stepping foot near that jobsite again.

for the record, i do have a permit for the shingling.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

ARI001 said:


> Why cut him slack? He needs to hear the truth not a bunch of b.s. You can lose your crisp bacon, neatly pressed shirts, and have all your bills fall behind just as quickly on small jobs as you can big jobs.You need to understand all the aspects of running jobs and being in business. If you haven't managed your money well enough to set up legitimately how are you going to handle your customers money regardless of the job size?
> 
> He still needs to know what to charge and why to charge that. This is a cut throat business and if you don't know what you're doing on all sides of it you can get in trouble fast. There are a lot of HO's out there that will eat you alive if you don't protect yourself. Not to mention other contractors.
> 
> Mason can you afford to file a lien and eat your $499.99 dollars if your client doesn't pay you? Will that put you in an even worse situation than you are in now? If you do a job for $501.00 and your client knows the regulations in your state and turns you in, can you afford the fines? If you take on a job and your clients kid comes running through the work area, trips over your tool belt and breaks a leg can you afford to pay for it out of pocket? Do you have a contract that protects you? If so is it enforceable? Are you sure? You couldn't afford to set up legitimately so I doubt you had a lawyer review it. When you file your taxes did you with hold enough back or are you going to end up paying fines and interest? Do you know what you can right off and what you can't? Can you afford to pay an accountant to do it for you? I think you get my point.


I hope one day he gets it, but i think for now freemason and 21gun will remain clueless to stay "above the law" so to speak. I know plenty of guys with a pick up that started out just like freemason is going, "well some day i'll go legit" 10-15-20yrs later they'er still the same guys with no licsence though it's a requirment for our area, no insurance, and are cutting the throats of all the honest business owners that are trying to run their legit operation and feed not only their personal family, but the family's of the men and women working for them...kinda hard to do that when your bidding against guys with zero overhead and selling at welfare prices...It costs me $xxx/day to operate with all the trucks/insurance/payroll/etc...we all know about so when i'm bidding say a 10sq roof we all know the market value of them and having to play within the confines of the market value to get the job sold, but we have just figured out how to do the jobs with more effiency in order to take them on for market price, while Mr. Hack comes in hunreds/thousands below going rate just to get the job...we lost a roof last month to a guy that said he'd rip an addition off the house, close it back in, tear off 18sq 2 layers on the house/garage and reroof for $1300, HO to provide all materials....the hacks have no comprehension of market value and what they're doing to the markets other than driving everything DOWN DOWN DOWN!!

Did i have insurance when i went on my own, YEP, so 21gun save your off the wall train of thought for the rest of the hacks you hang with and believe your jibberish. I graduated HS, and during the summers through HS worked with my grandfather since he was a contractor and he told me, you dont do a thing until you get insured, and a basic $100K policy is cheap, esspecially for a one man show so there is NO excuse of not being insured. That $3-400/yr policy is going to look awful cheap compared to the tens/hundreds of thousands one could possibly incur if something bad happened. I've been at this game a loong time, seen and heard every imaginable excuse possible, and that's all they are is excuses instead of ACTING PROFESSIONAL and doing the right thing, it's just easier to be a hack, make excuses as to why you cant do something right...and the funniest part, that train of thought seems to follow them around and show in their work as well.....


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

freemason21 said:


> i am not doing jobs where i'd make over 500 dollars. if a job is going to cost over 500$ then its probably too big of a job that i want to take, and i would be calling a friend of mine to be the lead person on it, and i would work for him.


That's just one of several issues. You are fixating on one aspect, what about all the other factors and scenarios I laid out for you? You do not fully understand the risks you are taking. :wallbash:


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

IHI said:


> I hope one day he gets it, but i think for now freemason and 21gun will remain clueless to stay "above the law" so to speak. I know plenty of guys with a pick up that started out just like freemason is going, "well some day i'll go legit" 10-15-20yrs later they'er still the same guys with no licsence though it's a requirment for our area, no insurance, and are cutting the throats of all the honest business owners that are trying to run their legit operation and feed not only their personal family, but the family's of the men and women working for them...kinda hard to do that when your bidding against guys with zero overhead and selling at welfare prices...It costs me $xxx/day to operate with all the trucks/insurance/payroll/etc...we all know about so when i'm bidding say a 10sq roof we all know the market value of them and having to play within the confines of the market value to get the job sold, but we have just figured out how to do the jobs with more effiency in order to take them on for market price, while Mr. Hack comes in hunreds/thousands below going rate just to get the job...we lost a roof last month to a guy that said he'd rip an addition off the house, close it back in, tear off 18sq 2 layers on the house/garage and reroof for $1300, HO to provide all materials....the hacks have no comprehension of market value and what they're doing to the markets other than driving everything DOWN DOWN DOWN!!
> 
> Did i have insurance when i went on my own, YEP, so 21gun save your off the wall train of thought for the rest of the hacks you hang with and believe your jibberish. I graduated HS, and during the summers through HS worked with my grandfather since he was a contractor and he told me, you dont do a thing until you get insured, and a basic $100K policy is cheap, esspecially for a one man show so there is NO excuse of not being insured. That $3-400/yr policy is going to look awful cheap compared to the tens/hundreds of thousands one could possibly incur if something bad happened. I've been at this game a loong time, seen and heard every imaginable excuse possible, and that's all they are is excuses instead of ACTING PROFESSIONAL and doing the right thing, it's just easier to be a hack, make excuses as to why you cant do something right...and the funniest part, that train of thought seems to follow them around and show in their work as well.....


 so you think i should go take out an insurance policy when i have 2 jobs right now? one of which is only going to take a day? save it for someone wants to hear your bs. yeah, im not running a "legitmate business" and im not claiming to be. stop your babbling, i wasnt here asking for advice, i just needed to vent, here you come in bashing me for no reason other then you dont like what i do. well guess what buddy theres lots of things out there that you dont like. the world isnt here to cater to you. get over yourself. you have too much overhead? thats your god damn problem not mine. i dont care what you do but quit posting here talking crap to me and the small time guys. i'm not a hack, i dont claim to be a master carpenter, and again IF I CANNOT HANDLE IT, I DONT TRY TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is that clear enough for you?


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> That's just one of several issues. You are fixating on one aspect, what about all the other factors and scenarios I laid out for you? You do not fully understand the risks you are taking. :wallbash:


 sorry i fixated on the one problem. i understand where you're coming from on the insurance side of things, and trust me its always in the back of my mind, but right now i cannot justify getting insurance for doing a small job here and there. if it gets consistent and i end up doing this full time on my own, ill get insurance and all that, but right now im just trying to fill in the gaps until either my boss picks up, or i find something else.


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

freemason21 said:


> i am not doing jobs where i'd make over 500 dollars. if a job is going to cost over 500$ then its probably too big of a job that i want to take, and i would be calling a friend of mine to be the lead person on it, and i would work for him.



Replacing 20 ft of deck railing can easily go over $500. you would turn that down?


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

freemason21 said:


> man that really sucks. im not intimidated by someone like that though. big mouths dont scare me, i had a guy come over asking me if i had permits to shingle at this house just last week. let me just say he wont be stepping foot near that jobsite again.
> 
> for the record, i do have a permit for the shingling.


Your doing roofs for under $500.00 and pulling permits with no license?  I believe in your area you must be licensed to pull a building permit. Let me guess your "lead friend" is contracting the job and you are working for him. :whistling

Kid you better think before you act. If you are threatening or verbally assaulting people who inquire as to whether or not you are legit (you're not) you could get yourself in a world of legal trouble. Yet another reason why you should not be striking out on your own yet.


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

ChainsawCharlie said:


> Replacing 20 ft of deck railing can easily go over $500. you would turn that down?


in this situation, i would turn it down. i've never done a deck railing other then just the pressure treated 1x5 or 6, and the pt ballisters. for that reason i would call my friend up and do the job with him, so in reality i wouldnt actually be turning a job.


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Your doing roofs for under $500.00 and pulling permits with no license?  I believe in your area you must be licensed to pull a building permit. Let me guess your "lead friend" is contracting the job and you are working for him. :whistling
> 
> Kid you better think before you act. If you are threatening or verbally assaulting people who inquire as to whether or not you are legit (you're not) you could get yourself in a world of legal trouble. Yet another reason why you should not be striking out on your own yet.


 i'm talking about siding, not roofing shingles. i would never ever do a roof job. im putting siding shingles on the gables ends of a 1 story house for a family friend. my friend has nothing to do with this job.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

Well, there's 3 jobs in this thread alone you've done, so we'll say $500 each, typical introductory liability insurance premium for a bare bones package hovers around $400....so you do ONE job and your coverage is paid for ALL YEAR!!!! 

You obviously dont get it and i'm sure based on what you've been saying so far you have the utmost respect for doing things exactly by the book so your right, your all good:whistling:laughing: Life in general is pretty simple, there's a right way and a wrong way...but i guess now there's the freemason way of do whatcha want and reach into the bag of excuses to justify yourself:laughing::thumbsup:


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

IHI said:


> Well, there's 3 jobs in this thread alone you've done, so we'll say $500 each, typical introductory liability insurance premium for a bare bones package hovers around $400....so you do ONE job and your coverage is paid for ALL YEAR!!!!
> 
> You obviously dont get it and i'm sure based on what you've been saying so far you have the utmost respect for doing things exactly by the book so your right, your all good:whistling:laughing: Life in general is pretty simple, there's a right way and a wrong way...but i guess now there's the freemason way of do whatcha want and reach into the bag of excuses to justify yourself:laughing::thumbsup:


 arty:


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## laxdad (Jul 22, 2009)

new guy here... don't want to be a flame thrower, but most of the people i know in this business (incl myself) started in this way... or did quite a few 'side jobs' along the way. and many of the guys that started with me in the late 80's went on their own in this fashion for exactly the same reason - huge downturn in work for their bosses...

it's the cycle =)


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

It boggles my mind all the people that come to the defense of people doing work illegally!:blink:
And do not try to tell me that someone will turn down a "small" job that is over 500.00 or 1000.00 or what ever.14 squares for less than 500.00????
I don't know about Mass. but here it is 500.00 _TOTAL_ materials _and_ labor.
Anything higher and you need a license...Period.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Let me share my story. A little from both sides here. Worked for one employer for 8 years and learned the ropes. Actually became a part owner. Due to some rapid growth and carelessness, the business was faltering. We split up the business in 1993 and went our separate ways. I was 26 years old, a father, homeowner, and out of work. Decided to start my own business. In hindsight, I should have waited a few more years. We were doing exclusively rough framing, and around here, many GC's couldn't care less if you had all the proper insurance. All the guys working for me were classified as subcontractors. Once I started doing things this way, there was no way I was gonna start paying 20% for WC, 8% for SS tax, not to mention unemployment taxes. Only insurance we had was Contractors liability. In 2005, My conscience started working on me about the way I was running was business. We started the new company and bit the bullet, paying workers comp 18% for a year and a half, got all the proper insurance, licenses,bonds, etc. All the workers were classified as employees also. Company was still profitable. I truly do wish I had done this from the beginning. People here who say that once you start out under the radar, you stay the way, are definitely right. I know many other people who started the same way I did, and they either continue to do it, or they are out of business. If you want to reap the benefits, you must make the sacrifice.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Warren said:


> Let me share my story. A little from both sides here. Worked for one employer for 8 years and learned the ropes. Actually became a part owner. Due to some rapid growth and carelessness, the business was faltering. We split up the business in 1993 and went our separate ways. I was 26 years old, a father, homeowner, and out of work. Decided to start my own business. In hindsight, I should have waited a few more years. We were doing exclusively rough framing, and around here, many GC's couldn't care less if you had all the proper insurance. All the guys working for me were classified as subcontractors. Once I started doing things this way, there was no way I was gonna start paying 20% for WC, 8% for SS tax, not to mention unemployment taxes. Only insurance we had was Contractors liability. In 2005, My conscience started working on me about the way I was running was business. We started the new company and bit the bullet, paying workers comp 18% for a year and a half, got all the proper insurance, licenses,bonds, etc. All the workers were classified as employees also. Company was still profitable. I truly do wish I had done this from the beginning. People here who say that once you start out under the radar, you stay the way, are definitely right. I know many other people who started the same way I did, and they either continue to do it, or they are out of business. If you want to reap the benefits, you must make the sacrifice.


All it takes is one "subcontractor" employee to fall of a ladder or a substantial accident to the owners home or inhabitants and you are done like dinner.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

JumboJack said:


> All it takes is one "subcontractor" employee to fall of a ladder or a substantial accident to the owners home or inhabitants and you are done like dinner.


Absolutely! We were so fortunate in that we never had a serious accident. I can't tell you how nice it is now to not have to worry about that. Another thing that I have noticed is the quality of the employee pool is enhanced now too. A few times back then, when I was looking to hire, people would ask if they were gonna be 1099'd. When I said yes, they would either ask for more money, or just flat out refuse the job. Even guys that hadn't worked in a while. Like I said befor, I truly regret that I didn't start out "legit" from the get go. The quality of the builder we work for has improved as well. This in itself covers the added expenses.


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## laxdad (Jul 22, 2009)

you guys are speaking from a different viewpoint than the OP. you are taking the convo in a tangent about employees and running a larger enterprise recklessly. the OP, unless i am wrong, is a one man show doing odd small jobs to pay the bills at hand.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

laxdad said:


> you guys are speaking from a different viewpoint than the OP. you are taking the convo in a tangent about employees and running a larger enterprise recklessly. the OP, unless i am wrong, is a one man show doing odd small jobs to pay the bills at hand.


Not true. I was working alone at first, with another guy who was part time. Worked with and for several other people at first and then built up from there. The point is, once you start and get used to doing it that way, there will be no incentive to change.


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

Last year:
$20,000.00 W C
$9,000.00 Gen. liability
add to that FICA and unemployement ins.

It is tough to bid against guys who don't have this overhead. I am not worried about the guy doing handy man work. The guys doing kitchen and bath remodels, those are the guys that can affect my business. If I have to worry about a 21 year old handyman I have got bigger problems.

I was not licensed on my first few small jobs before really going out on my own many, many years ago ie:side work.

I learned very quickly that to make real money, pull permits and working in buildings throughout the city it was the next step and something I was very eager to do.

Lets man up here guys.
I know 21 and I are not the only ones.
21 Guns, I applaud your honesty


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Mellison said:


> Last year:
> $20,000.00 W C
> $9,000.00 Gen. liability
> add to that FICA and unemployement ins.
> ...


I agree.I am not worried about handymen doing handy men jobs...But A LOT of "handymen" in my area do way more then they are allowed to do ie; kitchen and bath remods..That is where the problems start.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

freemason21 said:


> so you think i should go take out an insurance policy when i have 2 jobs right now? one of which is only going to take a day? save it for someone wants to hear your bs. yeah, im not running a "legitmate business" and im not claiming to be. stop your babbling, i wasnt here asking for advice, i just needed to vent, here you come in bashing me for no reason other then you dont like what i do. well guess what buddy theres lots of things out there that you dont like. the world isnt here to cater to you. get over yourself. you have too much overhead? thats your god damn problem not mine. i dont care what you do but quit posting here talking crap to me and the small time guys. i'm not a hack, i dont claim to be a master carpenter, and again IF I CANNOT HANDLE IT, I DONT TRY TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is that clear enough for you?


I think more and more of us would be a lot happier if suddenly in order to post here you had to submit proof of insurance and license in order to register. 

That and nathan started another site called hacktalk.com and give some of the people here a choice where and who to associate themselves with.

I mean, wouldn't a hack be happier if he could freely exchange all the tricks of the hack trade with a group of hack peers, instead of having to wade through all the posts here about codes, permitting and standard construction methods? That stuff has got to be very boring and of very little use to them when what they need to know is relevant information about how to dodge inspections, how to use thinset in 1001 ways, how to do plumbing, how to do electrical, how to get more business at $20 an hour or less.


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

JumboJack said:


> I agree.I am not worried about handymen doing handy men jobs...But A LOT of "handymen" in my area do way more then they are allowed to do ie; kitchen and bath remods..That is where the problems start.


I hear you there.
To be honest in NYC it is tough to gain access to most apartment buildings without a license and all your ins. up to date. Hell I am waiting on a permit for a basic bath remodel, and just last week I was hired by a guy to remove a piece of built in furniture and replace his wall throug ac unit and had to show all insurance info.

If I saw what you see on a regular basis I would most defidently get riled.


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## laxdad (Jul 22, 2009)

Warren said:


> Not true. I was working alone at first, with another guy who was part time. Worked with and for several other people at first and then built up from there. The point is, once you start and get used to doing it that way, there will be no incentive to change.


but you yourself say there was incentive later in this thread? there was for myself and many others i know to take the next steps. i don't know anyone personally that did not get their lic or decide this wasn't for them. heck, i did it 'legal' for about 8 yrs (mostly as a sub) and left for another 8 (completely different line of work) before coming back... just to sub for some gc's i still know. i'll probably leave again in another few years. 

it isn't expensive to be a one man show. but, i just don't feel this guy is trying to get over on people. he's just trying to keep his head above water, cuz the boss' work fell through


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Seems nowadays for whatever reason, everybody wants to have their own business. Well guess what? Not everyone can. If you have to do it illegitimately, then don't do it. I said earlier that I wish I had waited til I was able to do it the right way. At 21 years old, I guarantee he has a lot to learn about the trades and especially the business end. I am still learning constantly. I was running framing crews at 21 and when at 26 I started my business, I really wasn't ready. 

By the way I didn't say their was "incentive" later. I said I felt convicted to go "legit" The incentive part is a byproduct of hard work and doing things the right way. It is a reward for doing things right.


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

laxdad said:


> i just don't feel this guy is trying to get over on people. he's just trying to keep his head above water, cuz the boss' work fell through


 You could say the same thing about anyone doing anything wrong, every wrong action is justified by someone.


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## laxdad (Jul 22, 2009)

you guys are a rough crowd. this guys isn't starting a 'business' or hoping to be self-employed. he's working part time for a landscaper and doing odd jobs because no one is hiring. he came here to vent about the boss misrepresenting the winter. i have to assume that's the case, there isn't any reason to doubt it. 

i'm in a pretty good area for median income, and close to affluent areas and there aren't many, really any, hirings going on these days.


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## HomerJ (Jan 23, 2009)

To the OP and his defenders:

You may not be required to carry a license if you're doing jobs under $500, but what about your liability while working in someone's home?

Do you have any understanding of the kind of damage you can cause to a home? 

Do your "clients" know the kind of exposure they have if you injure yourself while working on their property?

My company does 6-8 jobs every single week that pay under $500. I carry $2M in liability, commercial auto, hired and non-owned auto, and workers comp insurance. Plus, I have an umbrella policy on top of all that. 

I started out on my own back in Jan of this year and didn't even take a phone call until I was legal and insured.

Get insured or get out.


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## HSConstruction (Mar 21, 2009)

freemason21 said:


> i'm talking about siding, not roofing shingles. i would never ever do a roof job. im putting siding shingles on the gables ends of a 1 story house for a family friend. my friend has nothing to do with this job.


 
Cedar shakes are big money here, hell vinyl shakes are also big money. You are pimping yourself out for peanuts and putting yourself at extreme risk while doing it. Go legit raise your prices and everyone is happy.

I was "under the radar" as well for the first few months (10 years ago), I was blinded by the money and didn't know the rules. It became very clear very fast that IF something went wrong EVERYTHING was at stake. You are aware of the consequences and just flat out don't care. Thats the epitome of a hack.

You come in here with the "untouchable" attitude and get pissy with the ones who are trying to set you straight. Nobody wants to you you fail but that is exactly what you are setting yourself up for.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

HSConstruction said:


> Cedar shakes are big money here, hell vinyl shakes are also big money. You are pimping yourself out for peanuts and putting yourself at extreme risk while doing it. Go legit raise your prices and everyone is happy.
> 
> I was "under the radar" as well for the first few months (10 years ago), I was blinded by the money and didn't know the rules. *It became very clear very fast that IF something went wrong EVERYTHING was at stake*. You are aware of the consequences and just flat out don't care. Thats the epitome of a hack.
> 
> You come in here with the "untouchable" attitude and get pissy with the ones who are trying to set you straight. Nobody wants to you you fail but that is exactly what you are setting yourself up for.


BINGO.That is it in a nutshell.


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## cabinet runner (Nov 11, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> I think more and more of us would be a lot happier if suddenly in order to post here you had to submit proof of insurance and license in order to register. qoute]]]]]]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

HomerJ said:


> To the OP and his defenders:
> 
> You may not be required to carry a license if you're doing jobs under $500, but what about your liability while working in someone's home?
> 
> ...


I like your name man.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

Warren said:


> Seems nowadays for whatever reason, everybody wants to have their own business. Well guess what? Not everyone can. If you have to do it illegitimately, then don't do it. .


People will continue to be scofflaw contractors as long as the benefit of doing so outweighs the penalties for doing so.

There will always be some sort of underground economy - neighbor or friend of a friend working on his neighbor's roof/fence/sidewalk/siding etc for a few bucks under the table.

I don't care about those, and complaining about ALL unlicensed work seems a bit silly and overdramatic to me.

Everyone's got their own line in the sand here, mine is basically any carpentry job over a $500. And the only way to stem the tide of abusing licensing requirements, insurance, using illegals, etc. is enforcement by punishing the Home Owner.

There will always be tons of folks out there ready to provide any service at any price imaginable, but if the Home Owner knows he or she could be seriously screwed with fines, liability, etc it would make them think more about other factors than just how cheaply they can get the work done.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

One thing I forgot to mention is that does bother me, even with 'licensed' contractors is all the 'crossover work' people are willing to do. In Oregon your insurance is based on how many specialties you engage in - e.g. trim and finish work, flooring, sheetrock, framing. If you want to be able to do more than two, say frame, sheetrock, and interior finish, then you need a GC license and your insurance is more.

Want to guess how many of our fellow licensed contractors out there will do everything including plumbing or electrical who AREN'T GCs? Quite a few. And they use the same reasons 21 and others use: it's tough out there, I need to make a living, etc.

I have more of a problem with these contractors than a guy like 21 trying to score some sidework from Craig's list posters who were never going to pay what it would cost me to do their work anyway.


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

Warren said:


> Not true. I was working alone at first, with another guy who was part time. Worked with and for several other people at first and then built up from there. The point is, once you start and get used to doing it that way, there will be no incentive to change.


the difference is that i want to have a business that is 100% legitimate, a lettered truck, tax forms, insurance, etc the whole 9 yards. one day i will get there. i'm just trying to make ends meet to put food on the table for now, i might not go out on my own much longer, maybe i will, it depends on the work.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

Original post by IHI 

"Did i have insurance when i went on my own, YEP, so 21gun save your off the wall train of thought for the rest of the hacks you hang with and believe your jibberish. I graduated HS, and during the summers through HS worked with my grandfather since he was a contractor and he told me, you dont do a thing until you get insured, and a basic $100K policy is cheap, esspecially for a one man show so there is NO excuse of not being insured. That $3-400/yr policy is going to look awful cheap compared to the tens/hundreds of thousands one could possibly incur if something bad happened. I've been at this game a loong time, seen and heard every imaginable excuse possible, and that's all they are is excuses instead of ACTING PROFESSIONAL and doing the right thing, it's just easier to be a hack, make excuses as to why you cant do something right...and the funniest part, that train of thought seems to follow them around and show in their work as well.....[/quote]


are you friggin kiddin me? been at this a long time? have you now? Been (around) it for a long time.... maybe....i bet you're one of those "got it gave to you boys..."

I got half a mind to show your young punk ass a thing or 2.... i'm gonna make you my hoobby BOY... You _sound_ like you know a little about the biz... i dont think you took the time to read all this thread before you spent your granddaddy's 2 cents opening your mouth... I bet you dont know the first thing about how to properly use a friggin speed square.... you know the one you use to HACK 2x4's in half..... Your hot rod work van says it all,,,, even driveways? what do you do? Burn outs on them? SHUT UP.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

So I guess if we take this "Cowboy up and do whatcha gotta do and Get 'er done" attitude to the extreme, then I suppose that you have not renewed your automobile insurance, nor your car tags either? How about home owner's insurance? Wait, you have a mortgage, so you ain't got no choice but to have homeowner's insurance.

You don't need those to be able to work. You can just "borrow" the tags from your neighbor. No one is being hurt. Its like not having liability insurance and being in business for yourself, cause, times is tuff and in this economy a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

Pfffft... What a crock of crap. If you don't run a legal business, then let's face it folks, you're a criminal. Perhaps not as nefarious as say, a stick up man, or Bernie Madoff, but a crook none the less. And I'm not calling you this. The law is. If it were up to me, I'd live and let live, but, unfortunately, society doesn't agree with that.

Society has decided to live under the protection of laws. If we agree with them or not, we have little choice but to comply with them. If we do not, then we run the risk of paying the piper.

So, do what you want, and as for me, I'll just do what it takes to do the absolute best possible job for my clients. Including insurance, lisences, WC, taxes, Federal filings, benefits, good wages, fair labor practices and treating others as I would like to be treated. 

Call me silly.


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

HSConstruction said:


> Cedar shakes are big money here, hell vinyl shakes are also big money. You are pimping yourself out for peanuts and putting yourself at extreme risk while doing it. Go legit raise your prices and everyone is happy.
> 
> I was "under the radar" as well for the first few months (10 years ago), I was blinded by the money and didn't know the rules. It became very clear very fast that IF something went wrong EVERYTHING was at stake. You are aware of the consequences and just flat out don't care. Thats the epitome of a hack.
> 
> You come in here with the "untouchable" attitude and get pissy with the ones who are trying to set you straight. Nobody wants to you you fail but that is exactly what you are setting yourself up for.


what are you talking about cedar shakes for? im putting up grade A clear SHINGLES. they are 45 dollars a bundle. 


i didnt post this thread to be harped on by you bigger guys. im not taking any jobs from you guys. i understand where you're coming from but its not going to change anything right now. you say i get all "pissy" well you are coming in here and attacking me! what do you expect me to say? oh gee i'll get insurance tomorrow and get all legitmate and charge higher prices? no! im not on your level yet, not with experience, not with how to run a business, nothing. if i fall on my face so be it, at least i know in my heart i was out trying to make an honest living working for my money, not stealing and robbing, or scheming people. im taking jobs my boss wouldnt even touch. with the one exception if i was doing something for a family member or a close friend. 

i'm sorry if i am somehow ruining your business. i'm a 21 year old kid still learning the ropes of the trade, and im somehow stealing business from you guys who have been doing it for 20 plus years. give me a break.


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

Double-A said:


> So I guess if we take this "Cowboy up and do whatcha gotta do and Get 'er done" attitude to the extreme, then I suppose that you have not renewed your automobile insurance, nor your car tags either? How about home owner's insurance? Wait, you have a mortgage, so you ain't got no choice but to have homeowner's insurance.
> 
> You don't need those to be able to work. You can just "borrow" the tags from your neighbor. No one is being hurt. Its like not having liability insurance and being in business for yourself, cause, times is tuff and in this economy a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
> 
> ...


 go on, the violin is playing...


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

WHAT DO YOU WANT THIS KID TO DO? MOW FRIGGIN LAWNS? GOD ALMIGHTY, YOU ALL HAVE TOLD HIM HE SHOULD GET LEGIT.... HOW'S HE TO DO IT OVER NIGHT? HE CANT!!!!!!!!

MASON, I HAVE PUT MY 2 CENTS IN AND GOT A DOLLARS WORTH OF **** FOR IT MY SELF. IF I HAD THE WORK I'D HIRE YOU IN A MINUTE. YOU AT LEAST HAVE THE DESIRE TO WORK.

Yes, i was yelling!!!! Now i'm not.

You guys know the chances, the risks, the penalties. now he knows them too. I'm not givin him a get out of jail free card, nor looking to get bashed myself, the kid came on here just to vent about his boss's lack of work for him possibly and "MAN'ed up and said he hoped to get a few little jobs... didnt hear him say **** about filing unemployment. The kid wants to keep workin at somethin he has a passion for... the trades. Damn ya'll. Advise him, learn him about thangs, but dont encourage him the first little bit... no, hell, then the kid might turn out to be better than all of ya!!! 


WE ALL GOT STARTED SOMEWHERE!!!!!!!!!!! And dont any of ya lie and say you were legit from the word go. Yer a damn liar. And further more... we all need to learn some where... it should be guided by the hand of a more experienced professional....a landscaper shouldnt go sell a siding job if he's never held a pair of tin snips or a skil saw.... he should learn from someone first... prefferably a pro... but with the caliber of professionals here on this thread i gather it wil be a cold day in hell before you throw the kid anything other than rants about being a hack. We all learned a thing or 2 with out being taught by a professional... we all over stretched our abilities and went out on a limb to do something we weren't fully familiar with.... sometimes we did ok, sometimes we had to redo some things. Stop acting like the alpha and omega of construction.

Why's the kid got a thread? what did he hope to get from us? A little encouragemnet. You got the extra hard time on being legit for free, you need to pay attention to all of that. IT'S IMPORTANT.....VERY IMPORTANT, don't overstep your abilities at this stage. YOU owe it to the H.O. and yourself to stay out of trouble. I dont expect you to mow grass. You do all you can in your skill range and dont F*&ck nothin up. I dont wanna hear about it later.... these guys warned you... fairly, yet firmly, but for your own good. LEGIT is GOOD..... dont be a cut throat, charge well enough to save to get legit. AND DO NOT LIE IF YOU ARE ASKED FOR INSURANCE. THOSE GUYS PISS ME OFF EVEN WORSE. You'll loose some jobs for it, but never lie. It wont be for long any how, you'll find work with someone who's legit soon. Forget starting a biz right now. I'll tell you when you're ready. YEp, I will!!!!! Stay in touch ok kid? i like ya. You be alright. I look after ya, take care of your light weights for ya...bunch a clowns.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

freemason21 said:


> go on, the violin is playing...


 
Dude, Mason....that's just disrespectful... this gentleman's a moderator,

tho i cant say he's read the entire thread either

( I dont think anyway... i could be wrong.... but think he would have more encouraging things to say had he read all of it)

But regardless, i expect a young man to be a little more respectful... and atleast try to hear what he's saying.... 

In this business we have to be responsible, as we do in life. Your life is a reflection of your work as well as your work is a reflection of your life. They must be one of the same in nature or you will go the way of the dark side. youre not that type i dont think. Just as your car ins is the law, so is performing a trade according to the statutes of your local governing body. There are penalties to pay for deviance from the law. I dont get the feeling you're a lawless little punk kid... but that last comment wasnt called for. Even tho these guys rake up burning embers around the stake you tied yourself to, you owe it to yourself to hear what they have to teach you. And to an extent you owe it to them to not only listen but learn also. Mason? Are you learning anything? PM me and tell em what you have learned. Dont go complaining about being given a hard time either... thes guys have gave you good information if you just weed thru it.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Me? I don't want him to do anything. He's a man. He's going to do whatever he wants and if its not legit, and he gets caught and convicted, he's gonna pay the piper. Just like you and I. Ain't this country great?

Now, as far as this forum is concerned, its a place to exchange ideas and to learn. I'd say some ideas were exchanged and the young man learned something. For instance, if you ***** about real life to a bunch of folks that walk the walk every day, then you're gonna get a sarcastic remark for your trouble and no sympathy for not playing by the rules. 

In fact, he walked right into what makes this country great. Real people doing what they do, the right way, because it's right. Not 'cause someone in Alabama told them it was OK if they didn't for right now. 

Having said that, I do happen to agree with the rest of your statements and your advice to him. But, I'm not gonna encourage or discourage him. I'm just gonna say this. 

If you wash your laundry in public, then you just might get comments on your choice of intimate apparel. And when you do get those comments, you have no one to blame but yourself.


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

Wh...wh...what's wrong with *sniff* mowing lawns?:sad:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

ChainsawCharlie said:


> Wh...wh...what's wrong with mowing lawns?:sad:


Nothing..If you get to do it in Hawaii.:laughing:


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

Double-A said:


> Not 'cause someone in Alabama told them it was OK if they didn't for right now.


Hey now. :jester:


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

21gun said:


> Original post by IHI
> 
> "Did i have insurance when i went on my own, YEP, so 21gun save your off the wall train of thought for the rest of the hacks you hang with and believe your jibberish. I graduated HS, and during the summers through HS worked with my grandfather since he was a contractor and he told me, you dont do a thing until you get insured, and a basic $100K policy is cheap, esspecially for a one man show so there is NO excuse of not being insured. That $3-400/yr policy is going to look awful cheap compared to the tens/hundreds of thousands one could possibly incur if something bad happened. I've been at this game a loong time, seen and heard every imaginable excuse possible, and that's all they are is excuses instead of ACTING PROFESSIONAL and doing the right thing, it's just easier to be a hack, make excuses as to why you cant do something right...and the funniest part, that train of thought seems to follow them around and show in their work as well.....


 
are you friggin kiddin me? been at this a long time? have you now? Been (around) it for a long time.... maybe....i bet you're one of those "got it gave to you boys..."

I got half a mind to show your young punk ass a thing or 2.... i'm gonna make you my hoobby BOY... You _sound_ like you know a little about the biz... i dont think you took the time to read all this thread before you spent your granddaddy's 2 cents opening your mouth... I bet you dont know the first thing about how to properly use a friggin speed square.... you know the one you use to HACK 2x4's in half..... Your hot rod work van says it all,,,, even driveways? what do you do? Burn outs on them? SHUT UP.[/QUOTE]


It's like this 21gun, my entire life i've had NOTHING handed to me, everything i've got is because i worked my azz off to get it, pure and simple, i wish i had an easy road. Gramps sub-contracted his entire life because he did'nt want the headaches and risks involved with having to be 100% self effeicent, and many times, esspecially these rough times i have to agree the ole boy was'nt completely wrong, he taught me what i needed to know to get going, how to work this job of being self employeed as a JOB which many guys fail because they cant grasp that concept, they want the rewards without the effort needed. Then came a time when my risky nature got the best of me, i tired of the mudane work we were doing over and over and wanted more, more money, more responsibility, more options in my own destiny and not being a beeotch to the system. Granted gramps worked his 40 or so hours a week and made a great living doing what he did, i work 70-80hrs feild and office combined and it's a hard living dealing with as you say "punks" like you screwing up the market with more excuses that i can ever dream of, and this could possibly be why freemaason in the position he's in today??? and for the record, gramps just retired last yr at 81yrs old....i dont wanna do that.

Here's another lil tid bit for ya since your infatuated with my tool bin on wheels, it's called name branding/marketing. If i wanted to blend in with the crowd i'da stuck to all pick up trucks with typical door lettering, which i have on the other trucks btw, but i wanted to make a statement, grab attention and give folks something to talk about/remember my company logo/name by...like it/hate it, i dont give two ****s, i've gotten ALOT of work from people in traffic calling, "i just saw your van and wondered if...." and since we can cover the gaunlet from the ground up i advertise as such since i'm legal and legit to perform said work and have no problem letting the neighbors know who's on site.....

someday you may get it, but until you can learn that you dont know everything, muster the ability to STFU and take in what everybody is telling that kid, he may be able to start moving forward and legitamizing himself, until then, he'll continue to cry and rant on here, you get zero sympothy from any of us that operate in a legal manner. I am sorry his boss is slow and cant keep him busy, it's tough out there right now; more so since there's an over abundance of guys him that THINK they know, but have no idea.:thumbsup:

and for the record, he's been getting sound advise from those of us that have been at it for years, and between his hard head and idiots like you that are trying to fuel a bad fire, he'll never really get IT.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

Double-A said:


> Pfffft... What a crock of crap. If you don't run a legal business, then let's face it folks, you're a criminal. Perhaps not as nefarious as say, a stick up man, or Bernie Madoff, but a crook none the less. And I'm not calling you this. The law is. If it were up to me, I'd live and let live, but, unfortunately, society doesn't agree with that.


I can't agree with that extremely black and white view. I don't think I know anyone, business owners included, who would consider Neighbor A paying Neighbor B to help him put up a fence, mend some siding, or build a deck a 'criminal.' 

One man can't pay another man to build a friggin FENCE because the guy doesn't have a license? I guess all those highschool and college kids doing yardwork should be considered criminals because they aren't licensed landscapers, eh? I think that is preposterous and shows how ridiculous the idea of licensing and liability has become. 

Carpentry is not rocket science ANYONE can learn to do it. Heck, not even a hundred years ago EVERYONE did work on their own houses, their neighbor's houses and barns, etc. etc.

Despite my feelings about this, I also DO AGREE that in the world of licensed contractors the rules have been established and those who break the rules are not only competing unfairly against those who follow them, but they should also be penalized for doing so.

Speeding doesn't make you a criminal. Working under the table doesn't make you a criminal (imo), but if you get caught then you ought to be penalized.

And, frankly, if the home owners were the ones being penalized, then they wouldn't bother trying to get unlicensed work on the cheap.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

Double-A said:


> If you wash your laundry in public, then you just might get comments on your choice of intimate apparel. And when you do get those comments, you have no one to blame but yourself.


Or your wife for buying those damn heart & cupid boxers!:laughing:


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

21gun said:


> Dude, Mason....that's just disrespectful... this gentleman's a moderator,
> 
> tho i cant say he's read the entire thread either
> 
> ...


He's falling right in line with you it seems. Why would you expect him to be respectful when your here tooting his horn telling him its o.k. to run illegally and with total disregard to the right way to establish a business. It's disrespectful on your part to everyone here that cares enough about what they are doing to encourage someone else to do it the wrong way.

Just because you didn't start legitimately and he isn't starting legitimately doesn't mean everybody else couldn't do it the right way. I think maybe your conscious is catching up with you. He (mason) is young and impressionable, encouraging him to take the wrong steps now will only lead to his continuing to make bad decisions later.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

custrel said:


> I can't agree with that extremely black and white view. I don't think I know anyone, business owners included, who would consider Neighbor A paying Neighbor B to help him put up a fence, mend some siding, or build a deck a 'criminal.'
> 
> One man can't pay another man to build a friggin FENCE because the guy doesn't have a license? I guess all those highschool and college kids doing yardwork should be considered criminals because they aren't licensed landscapers, eh? I think that is preposterous and shows how ridiculous the idea of licensing and liability has become.
> 
> ...


The liabilities are much higher these days then they where a hundred years ago. It's a little bit different to help your neighbor or friend build a deck or mend a fence then to charge someone you don't know to do it. You know as well as I do there are 101 things that can go wrong any given day. 

I don't have a problem with him doing jobs under $500 unlicensed if his state does not require him to be licensed. I have a problem with him operating without understanding of the liabilities and responsibilities he has. I have a problem with him not acquiring the proper insurance to protect himself and his clients. 

I don't agree with you that anybody can do carpentry work. While you may be able to teach anybody how to knock a couple of boards together, not everybody has the aptitude to really understand the principles and mechanics behind it. I feel the same about all the trades. If your statement where true everybody would do every aspect of construction on their own. There would be no professional tradesman, we would have no need for them. I think maybe you are buying into the whole diy mentality a little much.

I do agree with the rest of your statements.


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

IHI said:


> are you friggin kiddin me? been at this a long time? have you now? Been (around) it for a long time.... maybe....i bet you're one of those "got it gave to you boys..."
> 
> I got half a mind to show your young punk ass a thing or 2.... i'm gonna make you my hoobby BOY... You _sound_ like you know a little about the biz... i dont think you took the time to read all this thread before you spent your granddaddy's 2 cents opening your mouth... I bet you dont know the first thing about how to properly use a friggin speed square.... you know the one you use to HACK 2x4's in half..... Your hot rod work van says it all,,,, even driveways? what do you do? Burn outs on them? SHUT UP.



It's like this 21gun, my entire life i've had NOTHING handed to me, everything i've got is because i worked my azz off to get it, pure and simple, i wish i had an easy road. Gramps sub-contracted his entire life because he did'nt want the headaches and risks involved with having to be 100% self effeicent, and many times, esspecially these rough times i have to agree the ole boy was'nt completely wrong, he taught me what i needed to know to get going, how to work this job of being self employeed as a JOB which many guys fail because they cant grasp that concept, they want the rewards without the effort needed. Then came a time when my risky nature got the best of me, i tired of the mudane work we were doing over and over and wanted more, more money, more responsibility, more options in my own destiny and not being a beeotch to the system. Granted gramps worked his 40 or so hours a week and made a great living doing what he did, i work 70-80hrs feild and office combined and it's a hard living dealing with as you say "punks" like you screwing up the market with more excuses that i can ever dream of, and this could possibly be why freemaason in the position he's in today??? and for the record, gramps just retired last yr at 81yrs old....i dont wanna do that.

[/quote] what the HELL does this have to do with anything? thats nice, you had to work for everything. ill tell you what, im might be 21, but i've lived a hard ****ing life and dealt with alot of pain. dont try to talk to me about how nothing was handed to you, you dont even wanna hear the stories i have to tell from my life. you know alot more about carpentry, thats fine, but what the hell does your life story and your grandpa have to do with me doing side work without insurance. it sounds like you just need someone to talk to.

im in the position i am today, because work is slow. I DIDNT CRASH THE MARKET YOU MORON. i had a very stable job at my last job. i was garunteed 40 hours a week no matter what the work load was. i dont have control over any of this crap.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)




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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

freemason21 said:


> what the HELL does this have to do with anything? thats nice, you had to work for everything. ill tell you what, im might be 21, but i've lived a hard ****ing life and dealt with alot of pain. dont try to talk to me about how nothing was handed to you, you dont even wanna hear the stories i have to tell from my life. you know alot more about carpentry, thats fine, but what the hell does your life story and your grandpa have to do with me doing side work without insurance. it sounds like you just need someone to talk to.
> 
> im in the position i am today, because work is slow. I DIDNT CRASH THE MARKET YOU MORON. i had a very stable job at my last job. i was garunteed 40 hours a week no matter what the work load was. i dont have control over any of this crap.


Since your blind to what everybody on here is trying to tell ya, then you have other nutswingers trying to help justify your ridiculous actions and trains of thought and STILL are'nt getting it, and now you and your nutswinger buddy start trying to call ME out?? WTF do you think i'm going to do? I'm trying to be civil since it seems there's some jealious rage going on and i'm just letting you know and your other fruit cake buddy know that, we all have our stories and no matter what it does'nt ever justify doing stuff the wrong way, what we're trying to tell you to do so YOUR covering YOUR azz is such small peanuts there's no excuse to say, "well, i have to risk everything i have in my life to make a buck for today because i'm too helpless to do thing as they should be" and like i said before, your operating in such a large gray area, where does the line officially stop? in the real world, it's right or wrong, that simple, but you prefer to operate in the gray area and say, well, times are tough i cant do it that way right now, and that in turn moves into, well, i did'nt budget for this to do the job right, so we'll just do this instead...and everything continues like that...

your 21, worked for somebody else, this board is FULL of us that have been there dun that and we're trying to educate you the path your going is flawed and there's a good possibility of incurring some serious reprocussions at some point in time due to the path your going. I dont care how big or how "small" you are, your operating in a unprofessional manner that could be hazardious to your profession career in the trades...obviously you dont like hearing the truth, sorry, but often nobody like to hear things when they're not sugar coated, so they lash back at the ones trying to provide the help...your definately showing your age and experience here:thumbsup:


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

Again, all you fat headed Higher up the pole than us folks... remember being up there means everyone can see your ass clearly...

I think the kid knows there are risks... i think he knows i'm not encouraging him to run a biz without papers... 

For god sakes people... he wants to keep working. Id be faster to chastize him for going on unemployment or giving up. I think you are all right to a degree, very right in a lot of respects.... yes, good info for him to hear. I think he's got it now.

And stop pointin yer crooked azz little fingers at me. I swear it sounds like ya'll afraid of a little up and coming competition.

It doesn't bother me to be the center of your little accusations and blame gaming... Im a man, i can take it. I have been in this trade long enough to know any body in it thinks his sh*t dont stink and whatever.... Those are the guys that usually do the best work... They're just not so good at building people up as they are houses....

I hate to see a good craftsman throw together a great project and do it sounding like a D*ck. How the hell you expect this kid to learn what he needs to know from a pro if all he gets from a pro is a hard time and no support? He's gonna learn from the guy that takes time to appreciate his abilities and is willing to help him overcome his inabilities. Not the guy rammin crap about why he cant this and that from a selfrighteous a** hole. Lay off the hard ass role a minute and contribute something that sounds genuinly considerate of his position/circumstances. It's good to be a hrd azz some time/ alot of the time even... but if you're always a hardazz and never encouraging no body wants to hear you all the time

Just sayin.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

There is no end to this thread is there?


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

21gun said:


> Again, all you fat headed Higher up the pole than us folks... remember being up there means everyone can see your ass clearly...
> 
> I think the kid knows there are risks... i think he knows i'm not encouraging him to run a biz without papers...
> 
> ...


ahhhh, i think initally that's what we were doing, trying to help out until he dug in his heels and started spouting off which was later fueled by rederic. Would it be safe to say we're all proud of him for trying to work to stay above water, helll yes we are, better than these warefare mofo's taking our hard earned tax dollars and sit on their azzes, but we're also trying to get the point across:
he is CHARGING money for a service so if he's going to operate in a Business format, he needs to play by business rules, it's just that simple. I know there's plenty of guys that get by with no insurance and working like hacks/below the radar, and i also know it would'nt take much for him to lose HIS personal belongs, HIS house that he's trying to raise HIS family in because he's so focused on chasing a buck he's oblivious to covering his own azz....customers are always your best freind but we know good and well they can flop and turn against you in a split second and become the worlds biggest PITA/crook...by not having the pieces in place to protect himself, he's not only exposing his personal reputation and finances to reprocussion, he's also risking the very thing/s he's working for, the wife/kids/house....he just does'nt have the real life experience obviously to see that, and THAT is what we're trying to get across.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

Jeez 21, you sure are trying to protect this kid, but the only one you are protecting him from is himself.

Let him get an ear-full from people who know the business and the work and he will probably work it out for himself eventually.

God, it's not like he is being physically threatened or abused and it could very well be that this is exactly what the boy needs to motivate him in the right direction. The direction of legality and legitimacy.

Andy.


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

IHI said:


> Since your blind to what everybody on here is trying to tell ya, then you have other nutswingers trying to help justify your ridiculous actions and trains of thought and STILL are'nt getting it, and now you and your nutswinger buddy start trying to call ME out?? WTF do you think i'm going to do? I'm trying to be civil since it seems there's some jealious rage going on and i'm just letting you know and your other fruit cake buddy know that, we all have our stories and no matter what it does'nt ever justify doing stuff the wrong way, what we're trying to tell you to do so YOUR covering YOUR azz is such small peanuts there's no excuse to say, "well, i have to risk everything i have in my life to make a buck for today because i'm too helpless to do thing as they should be" and like i said before, your operating in such a large gray area, where does the line officially stop? in the real world, it's right or wrong, that simple, but you prefer to operate in the gray area and say, well, times are tough i cant do it that way right now, and that in turn moves into, well, i did'nt budget for this to do the job right, so we'll just do this instead...and everything continues like that...
> 
> your 21, worked for somebody else, this board is FULL of us that have been there dun that and we're trying to educate you the path your going is flawed and there's a good possibility of incurring some serious reprocussions at some point in time due to the path your going. I dont care how big or how "small" you are, your operating in a unprofessional manner that could be hazardious to your profession career in the trades...obviously you dont like hearing the truth, sorry, but often nobody like to hear things when they're not sugar coated, so they lash back at the ones trying to provide the help...your definately showing your age and experience here:thumbsup:


 you arent helping. your original post told me i was taking work from you. im not lashing back, im giving you what your giving me, which is a bunch of crap. you continuelly attack me, and i dont want to take it. 

whatever. you guys think i see myself as a know it all. i just went to look at a job to fix some rotted out trim. after looking at it, i determined the sill was rotted, along with all the 2x4's in the corner, the sheathing, and the shingles. i told him its over my head but i will have someone come out with me and take a look. so whatever you all think im going to fail, thats fine, im not trying to start a full fledged business. good luck to you, i appreciate your "advice".


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

freemason21 said:


> you arent helping. your original post told me i was taking work from you. im not lashing back, im giving you what your giving me, which is a bunch of crap. you continuelly attack me, and i dont want to take it.
> 
> whatever. you guys think i see myself as a know it all. i just went to look at a job to fix some rotted out trim. after looking at it, i determined the sill was rotted, along with all the 2x4's in the corner, the sheathing, and the shingles. i told him its over my head but i will have someone come out with me and take a look. so whatever you all think im going to fail, thats fine, *im not trying to start a full fledged business.* good luck to you, i appreciate your "advice".


There is a big difference between taking on a few small jobs before you get all your ducks in order and admitting that you will continue to operate this way indefinitely.
It seem as though you have chose the latter. Not a great idea as sooner or later something might happen on a job that you did not expect.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

I'm gonna get out of this thread...........:wallbash:

geez o pete's....it's gotta come back to me for everything i say....

what's the use.............:wallbash:

Seems every thread is some guy gettin bashed.... ya'll need a fist fight that you can have the final word in... wont be a fight with me... i dont think the crap in your diaper is something i care to get on me for giving you the spanking you need.

You can stop referring to me as i will now bow out from this finger pointing nonsense.


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

21gun said:


> are you friggin kiddin me? been at this a long time? have you now? Been (around) it for a long time.... maybe....i bet you're one of those "got it gave to you boys..."
> 
> *I got half a mind to show your young punk ass a thing or 2*.... i'm gonna make you my hoobby BOY... You _sound_ like you know a little about the biz... i dont think you took the time to read all this thread before you spent your granddaddy's 2 cents opening your mouth... I bet you dont know the first thing about how to properly use a friggin speed square.... you know the one you use to HACK 2x4's in half..... Your hot rod work van says it all,,,, even driveways? what do you do? Burn outs on them? SHUT UP.


I'm up for some "skoolin" from a punk-mouth. You are what's called "young-dumb-and fulla ***."

This ain't the eighth grade slicky boy. Those who feel the need to talk all TOUGH - typically aren't.

Drop the tude.


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

Are you legit?:whistling

Maybe Alabama lets you do certain things that are less than a General Contractor's level of responsibility...I don't know?

Or, maybe you are just a hack. I don't know that either.:no::thumbdown


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

21gun said:


> I got half a mind to show your young punk ass a thing or 2.... i'm gonna make you my hoobby BOY... You _sound_ like you know a little about the biz... i dont think you took the time to read all this thread before you spent your granddaddy's 2 cents opening your mouth... I bet you dont know the first thing about how to properly use a friggin speed square.... you know the one you use to HACK 2x4's in half..... Your hot rod work van says it all,,,, even driveways? what do you do? Burn outs on them? SHUT UP.


You start the filth spewing and then you whine about it???:



21gun said:


> I'm gonna get out of this thread...........:wallbash:
> 
> geez o pete's....it's gotta come back to me for everything i say....
> 
> ...


Your right, your better off stepping away, you have dug your hole...blind leading the blind...THAT is what the rest of us are trying to help prevent here.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

freemason21 said:


> what are you talking about cedar shakes for? im putting up grade A clear SHINGLES. they are 45 dollars a bundle.
> 
> 
> *i didnt post this thread to be harped on by you bigger guys. im not taking any jobs from you guys. i understand where you're coming from but its not going to change anything right now. you say i get all "pissy" well you are coming in here and attacking me! what do you expect me to say? oh gee i'll get insurance tomorrow and get all legitmate and charge higher prices? no! im not on your level yet, not with experience, not with how to run a business, nothing. if i fall on my face so be it, at least i know in my heart i was out trying to make an honest living working for my money, not stealing and robbing, or scheming people. im taking jobs my boss wouldnt even touch. with the one exception if i was doing something for a family member or a close friend. *
> ...


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Comments --

I think the point has been made in defense on this thred or maybe another or both that 

"I'm not taking a job from you..."

or

"These are small jobs under XX" (I think $500 was mentioned)

I think that's a reasonable defense for somebody doing the taking. It's like stealing from your employer's inventory. My boss has a huge box of outlets, I'm just taking one, it will never be missed, and besides... how about that time when I worked an extra hour and forgot to record it...."

Those are called rationalizations.

Now you can comment on this too -

Sure it's just a job here or there, and it's under a couple of hundred bucks... but lets look at a bigger picture. Lets look at maybe for instance electrical work and apply the same mentality.

A handyman or whatever they want to be called, replaces a couple of fans, throws in a light over the sink here and there.. this and that..

It's only a couple of jobs here or there and it's under $500 bucks anyways.

Well lets now multiply that times the entire country - that's more like maybe 5000 small jobs under $500.00 and lets look at the companies that would do those jobs. There are many electrical companies that do service work, a lot of it under $500. How many of those 'handyman' specials are taking away from those companies gross sales on a yearly basis?

Those little jobs add up when you look at the big picture and multiply them across the country and multiply them times 365 days a year.

So the whole it's under X and it's one or two to me is crap.


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

At 19 I got liability insurance and a state contractor registration

At 20 I got my construction supervisors license, workman's comp, hired employees, paid taxes, unemployment etc.

So now whats your excuse?

You know how I paid for it??? I busted my ass working for legit contractors until I had enough saved to do it on my own. 

I learned quick that having the cheapest price was a one way ticket to no 
where.

It really pisses me off that these A-holes think they can skate around the system while the rest of us worry about covering overhead and keeping guys legitimately employed

I have no problem with dropping a dime on these kinda people


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

Patrick said:


> I have no problem with dropping a dime on these kinda people


In reality, the folks that call these sort of peeps, the hack and the peep's deserve eachother, they're two peas in a pod and not a customer we would be interested in working with since the profit is'nt there as they're looking for free work. So in the past i've never put much thought/care into these bums as it's a market area i have no desire to touch, BUT as time has gone on and we are hired to redo many of these botched jobs/walk away jobs i've almost made up my mind on doing call in's when i see activity taking place at a property and no issued permit posted, even if i get just one under the radar guy fined and have it cost the HO double the money on permits along with now being scrutinized by the inspector, then i guess i'll feel better for the moment and hope it teaches both parties a lesson.. weather anything would ever come of it, i dont know i just think it'd be fun pizzing in people cheerio's:laughing: god knows i've had many a visit by the inspectors driving around towns when i did'nt have the permit posted in plain sight due to neighbors calling in. LOL


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

IHI said:


> In reality, the folks that call these sort of peeps, the hack and the peep's deserve eachother, they're two peas in a pod and not a customer we would be interested in working with since the profit is'nt there as they're looking for free work. So in the past i've never put much thought/care into these bums as it's a market area i have no desire to touch, BUT as time has gone on and we are hired to redo many of these botched jobs/walk away jobs i've almost made up my mind on doing call in's when i see activity taking place at a property and no issued permit posted, even if i get just one under the radar guy fined and have it cost the HO double the money on permits along with now being scrutinized by the inspector, then i guess i'll feel better for the moment and hope it teaches both parties a lesson.. weather anything would ever come of it, i dont know i just think it'd be fun pizzing in people cheerio's:laughing: god knows i've had many a visit by the inspectors driving around towns when i did'nt have the permit posted in plain sight due to neighbors calling in. LOL


What pisses me off is god forbid we go install or door, or a single window on a saturday or on short notice, and we get nailed cause we show up with a lettered truck, yet these side job bob idiots are doing full remodels without permits under the radar and go unnoticed.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

Patrick said:


> What pisses me off is god forbid we go install or door, or a single window on a saturday or on short notice, and we get nailed cause we show up with a lettered truck, yet these side job bob idiots are doing full remodels without permits under the radar and go unnoticed.


Oh yeah, i know exactly what you mean:furious: cant count the times schedules have been redone on a moments notice and the guys will get on sight before i have a chance to call in a permit/fax it in before i can get there to fill it out officially and i'll no more than hang up with the building office and then somebody else will be calling me saying they're red tagging the job site until we obtain a permit at twice the price because one was'nt secured or posted...the first few times i'd get pissey with them, but anymore i dont worry, tell them to contact whomever and it's all good. 

I'm sure we've all seen those guys doing jobs right on busy street that never had a permit pulled and never got questioned, the smaller towns round here, most the inspectors are retired this or that's and since they're check from the city is based on a percentage of the permit cost, basically all they do is drive around all day looking for trucks on addresses to call them out. This winter when my local inspector retires i have that job and i joked with my council members i was going to just drive around and zap people if i seen them carrying a hammer into the house:laughing:


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## HomerJ (Jan 23, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Comments --
> 
> I think the point has been made in defense on this thred or maybe another or both that
> 
> ...


We do door installations every day, and most of them are under $500.00.


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## RayGoerdt (Nov 13, 2008)

Freemason21,

Sure hope things work out for you, are you sure the GC lied, or maybe the deals fell thru. either way its a bummer..

Good Luck:thumbsup:


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

:tank: Don't mind me I'm just lookin' around.:tank:


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## S Winklepleck (Jul 31, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> I think more and more of us would be a lot happier if suddenly in order to post here you had to submit proof of insurance and license in order to register.


This would make me really sad :sad: I'm not a hack, but I'm also not a contractor... yet. I still work legitimately for a contractor as an employee, and joined this site to learn some things I would otherwise probably not learn from my boss. I'm learning just what I need to by reading all these posts on how to do this whole business legitimately, and getting great advice from the seasoned folks who frequent the site :thumbsup: I'm close to going for my license, possibly mere months away, and I'm glad to have a perspective on what I'm getting into that I can't get from being my boss's employee.

Please don't kick me out!!!


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Comments --
> 
> I think the point has been made in defense on this thred or maybe another or both that
> 
> ...


So are:

"My guys don't need hard hats, they'll be fine"

"If you wanted water, you should have brought some."

"You don't need fall protection, quit whining, get up there, and if you fall, you're fired!"

"You are required to be on the job 15 minutes before it starts... but I'm not paying you for it."

"I'm not buying you a new extension cord! Just wrap some tape around it, it will be fine."

"Let's put it this way, you can either complain about not having a dust mask, or you can have a job."

"MSDS? Listen, don't worry about what's in that stuff. I've used it for years and nothing ever happened to me."

:w00t:


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

custrel said:


> So are:
> 
> "My guys don't need hard hats, they'll be fine"
> 
> ...


 Those are OSHA violations (except #4 FLSA). You don't really think 21gun and the OP really have any idea about those do you. They can't be bothered to get a license and/or insurance much less read through all that.:laughing:


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Those are OSHA violations (except #4 FLSA). You don't really think 21gun and the OP really have any idea about those do you. They can't be bothered to get a license and/or insurance much less read through all that.:laughing:


I believe his point is right wrong or indifferent most people break some laws but believe others should be up held. i.e. Do you comply with OSHA but speed to work rationalizing by "I'm running Late" or Goose a yellow light because, "I'm runnimg late".

Pretty much EVERYONE breaks one law or another at different times the point others are making is the age old,” If you do the crime expect to do the time.”


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

S Winklepleck said:


> Please don't kick me out!!!


There there little buddy no one's kicking you out.

Here's a tissue....................







Better? :thumbup:


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## RayGoerdt (Nov 13, 2008)

jtpro said:


> I believe his point is right wrong or indifferent most people break some laws but believe others should be up held. i.e. Do you comply with OSHA but speed to work rationalizing by "I'm running Late" or Goose a yellow light because, "I'm runnimg late".
> 
> Pretty much EVERYONE breaks one law or another at different times the point others are making is the age old,” If you do the crime expect to do the time.”


 
Two things come to mind, 

"seek and ye shall find", if you want to find some thing on some one, good or bad, you will.

"judge not, lest ye be judged" nobody is perfect, you need only to look at yourself for proof of that.

I do not intend any religious conotation in this, its just life.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I think we should change the tittle of this thread to:

*So, I got me a pick 'em up truck and some tools!!*

Is it that bad everywhere, that we are seeing the laid off weekend warrior with just enough tools and not enough brains, infiltrating all over.

This place has been crawling with them latley.

No offense or nothin' ladies!


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