# Fixing this rock shed



## Mooman (Aug 6, 2012)

Tscarborough said:


> Mooman, I didn't see any hydraulic lime listed in their products.


Its not a complete list....I was just making a point that they are right in CT.. I've got bags of Lime for use in mortar mixes from them years ago. Now a days, there are other plants near them that quarry the same thing. Its all the same vein. They are also right next to several quarries that are owned and operated by one of the largest concrete plants around.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

there are quarries all over the country that produce lime. Limestone slurry is used in thousands of different products from toothpaste to lamp posts


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I have 2 lime plants and 3 cement plants within 20 miles, 7 including a white cement plant within 100 miles


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> Lime mortar has to breathe. If you use portland cement mortar over a lime mortar, it traps the moisture and the lime mortar basically turns into sanded lime putty. In a free standing wall it may take 10 or 20 years for enough lime mortar to disappear and cause the wall to fail, but in a basement/foundation application it can take months.


That's good advice, although round here there are a lot of free standing stone walls that have failed even quicker. 
Holding moisture allows plants like Ivy to grow in the walls which seems to rip them apart.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Here's a wall I worked on last year.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I didn't really mean free standing walls, it was a poor choice of words, I meant building walls above grade.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

http://www.virginialimeworks.com/

Distributers all over the east coast...


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

Must be just from my , hmm, previous viewing history but i got distracted when i opened the link because of the images that appeared at the bottom of the page. :whistling


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## Mooman (Aug 6, 2012)

jkfox624 said:


> Must be just from my , hmm, previous viewing history but i got distracted when i opened the link because of the images that appeared at the bottom of the page. :whistling


Ughh, don't think I want to know!


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## SixHoeBob (Jan 26, 2013)

Tscarborough said:


> Lime mortar is available, but it is imported and expensive. The components of lime mortar are readily available in most places and are cheap.


What are the components and ratios for lime mortar? Is lime the binding agent similar to portland cement in regular mortar?


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## Mooman (Aug 6, 2012)

I seem to recall a mix using 3 parts lime/ 2 parts sand/ 1 part portland with a splash of acryl60 for good measure.


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## SixHoeBob (Jan 26, 2013)

Mooman said:


> I seem to recall a mix using 3 parts lime/ 2 parts sand/ 1 part portland with a splash of acryl60 for good measure.


Thank you. Anybody else have a suggested mix ratio?


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

Mooman said:


> I seem to recall a mix using 3 parts lime/ 2 parts sand/ 1 part portland with a splash of acryl60 for good measure.


2.5 sand to 1 lime


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

The site Maul posted has a lot of information, videos, instructions ect. I would goto the source for information. There is more to know then how many sands...


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Mooman said:


> I seem to recall a mix using 3 parts lime/ 2 parts sand/ 1 part portland with a splash of acryl60 for good measure.


What was that mix used for?


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## joethepainter (Dec 1, 2012)

SixHoeBob said:


> If you have a lot of patience and like detail work you can re-point it.
> Use Leigh or a similar cement from a concrete block/brick yard. Do not use the crap from the big box store. Mix two parts sand to one part cement. The different possible combinations of sand types and cement colors yield different finished result colors. Take a sample of old mortar that you want to match to the block yard. The counter guy should be able to suggest the sand type and cement color. For a barn foundation I would use Leigh type S cement and a fine yellow sand. The end result would be gray in color. A good pointing job requires some skill and knowlege. If you have a lot of money for the project you could hire me. The materials are not very costly, but a good pointing job is very time consuming.


The only thing correct here is that pointing is very time consuming. Most masonry in my town is LIME based, a whole different monster then portland... Lime mortar stays soft and breathes, it is the weak point in a masonry wall, designed to fail before the masonry itself. Replaceable. Using portland mix on these historic type structures will cause massive failure to the brick or stone work in a very short time especially when freezing occurs...

Lime joints are usually white, not grey, and take months to years to cure... Around here you might even find sea shells mixed in the mortar.


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## SixHoeBob (Jan 26, 2013)

joethepainter said:


> The only thing correct here is that pointing is very time consuming. Most masonry in my town is LIME based, a whole different monster then portland... Lime mortar stays soft and breathes, it is the weak point in a masonry wall, designed to fail before the masonry itself. Replaceable. Using portland mix on these historic type structures will cause massive failure to the brick or stone work in a very short time especially when freezing occurs...
> 
> Lime joints are usually white, not grey, and take months to years to cure... Around here you might even find sea shells mixed in the mortar.


Well, at least I managed to get the very time consuming part right.

The gray/grey color was for typical portland cement mortar. 

I motivated the discussion of how to do it correctly, which is one of the goals of these forums. 

I don't mind being corrected if I am wrong, it is part of the learning curve.

Just telling the OP to hire a professional is not really much help to him, or anyone else reading the this thread. Revealling what is involved may help the OP complete the project in a respectable manner. Or he might decide that he would be better off hiring a mason. Someone could post some pictures of what a proper crown pointing job should look like. And then what a limestone wall looks like before and after it is sandblasted, prior to the actual pointing.

None of the masons in my town with one exception know anything other than to use portland cement based mortar and how to drink beer.

The one exception will tell you that he is smarter than the entire rest of the town combined, but he can't charge even a line twig at the block yard. Something about they want paid maybe?

Why would the lime mortar be designed to fail before the masonry itself? I was told lime mortar was the standard of it's day and modern construction is done with portland cement based mortar. 
What I learned from this discussion is that repairing a wall built with lime mortar requires the use of lime mortar. Lime mortar is not used to create a failure in the distant future, though that might be one of the side effects.

Personally I don't care, because I am going to make my fortune cleaning and selling paint brushes. Then, I too can afford Grolsh beer and some DUIs 

I am not really a mason, all I actually want to do is move dirt around.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

SixHoeBob said:


> Why would the lime mortar be designed to fail before the masonry


It's because you can easily replace the pointing every 100 years or so, whereas replacing the brick or stone is a lot more expensive.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Once again our man from accross the pond is correct. Masonry should always be designed for the mortar joint to fail before the building unit fails. 
There are several suppliers of a decent historic Lime mortar in the US. 
It is important to note that this is not just ground up limestone, it is a processed Lime that has been fired to make a product called quick lime. This is then mixed with water and sand (usually in a 3:1 mix) to make hot lime mortar. Hot because the quick lime reacts with water and creates heat. 
Quick Lime used to be mixed with water and stored in barrels with enough water to keep the solution submerged and this product was called Lime Putty. Once again to be mixed with sand and used on the wall.
The set up time is extended because the lime does not react with water to get hard, it reacts with Carbon dioxide from the atomospher to get hard. With out additives, Lime putty needed up to two weeks to cure enough that it could with stand normal weather fluctuations. 

When Portland came along, the cure times dropped significantly and Lime mortar fell out of favor. Now Lime mortar is usually used for repair of pre1900 structures or used with soft brick. If your existing structure was built with lime mortar, it is a really good idea to repair with a lime mortar.


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## Mooman (Aug 6, 2012)

dom-mas said:


> What was that mix used for?


A brick veneer.


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