# how long would you wait?



## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

i wrote about this new customer (GC) of mine a while back..payment issues

i did 3 projects.....he finally sent a check for 2 of them and $88 towards the 3rd project.....i went through the threats,letters, starting the lien process on project 1.....finally he paid after lying 3x about when he mailed the check......now project 3 is 15 days past due and i started the lien process on it...$488 is all he owes.....he is ignoring my phone calls and emails.....i am planning on contacting the homeowner this next week and letting them know whats going on....i typically wait 30-45 days overdue (i give 30 days to pay, so 30 days over due means 60 days)

but since he's not communicating i figure why wait.....maybe the project is not done yet and the homeowner still owed him some $$...this way i can go around the GC

whenever ive had payment issues its always been $500 or less.....i find it sad that a GC doesnt have $488 to pay me


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Every notice you send him send a copy to the HO. The HO needs to be in the loop. Then quit working for people that keep your money. When I get Draws for a job, I don't consider that my money until all the subs and vendors are paid. I'm just the steward of the gold.


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## Dave in Pa (Oct 10, 2009)

My opinion only! If I had a issue on project #1 with no pay/trouble/etc. there would not be #2 or #3 project! Let them find some other sucker to do the work!


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

huggytree said:


> i wrote about this new customer (GC) of mine a while back..payment issues
> 
> i did 3 projects.....he finally sent a check for 2 of them and $88 towards the 3rd project.....i went through the threats,letters, starting the lien process on project 1.....finally he paid after lying 3x about when he mailed the check......now project 3 is 15 days past due and i started the lien process on it...$488 is all he owes.....he is ignoring my phone calls and emails.....i am planning on contacting the homeowner this next week and letting them know whats going on....i typically wait 30-45 days overdue (i give 30 days to pay, so 30 days over due means 60 days)
> 
> ...


get better builders


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

Gave up a pretty decent sized project few years ago.. Builder would make every sub wait at least 90 and even then wasn't a guarantee.. Work was slow so everyone just dealt with it...I finally kept rasing my price to the point where I was gonna get paid for the aggravation or get fired...He told me if I can match some other company he found guy I could stay..no thanks...Well worth the piece of mind of not having the constant emails, phone calls, visits to the office trying to collect...Id do it again...


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I still can't think of the builders you work for that are like this.

When I used to do work for builders I always got payments according to our agreed upon payment schedule.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

i have a bunch of great builders....but im always looking for more

i send fliers out to all the builders in the area, so i get opportunities for new builders several time a year....its almost always the small/little guys...the ones you never really heard of that cause payment issues...

i go through this 1-2x a year....i always win, but it takes a while to move the process...

i did 3 projects for this guy because he had them all lined up ...every week a new project, so i had 3 projects done before payment on project 1 was due....he asked me to do a 4th project, but that was after he had been late to pay, so i said no thanks...he seemed angry

i also had another new builder a few weeks ago....sounded similar, so i passed on the job after doing a check on some of his other subs...they all said he was a slow payer

at some point every builder is a new builder and you have to take a chance on them being a good payer or a bad one....i am getting fussier

i now have a discussion of payment and past payment issues before taking on any new builder(gc)....the payment problem with new builders is like 33-50% bad over the past 2 years.....sometimes i think i already have all the good paying builders as customers...


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## BThomas (Apr 21, 2013)

He didn't say builder he said GC. It is easy to do two or three jobs for someone like this if you are waiting 30 days to be paid. While you are waiting you start the next one and several days or a week later but before the 30 days you start number three.
I know as I recently had the same experience with a new GC I did some sub work for. I only did two jobs but one was for several K and I am still waiting for that check. The GC I am waiting on was highly recommended by my lumber yard owner. I am sure I will get paid but I think it is mis-management that it takes more than 30 days to be paid. 
I agree with you Huggy - 45 days would be my limit before taking some sort of action. If you need the work than the lien process is not the way to go. That will only foster bad feelings. However if you do not plan on working for him again.....
In my case - I expressed my feelings to the GC only. The pay is not great but it is all local and this past winter was so slow that I am still behind where I should be at this time of year.
Bill T


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

NYGUTTERGUY said:


> Gave up a pretty decent sized project few years ago.. Builder would make every sub wait at least 90 and even then wasn't a guarantee.. Work was slow so everyone just dealt with it...I finally kept rasing my price to the point where I was gonna get paid for the aggravation or get fired...He told me if I can match some other company he found guy I could stay..no thanks...Well worth the piece of mind of not having the constant emails, phone calls, visits to the office trying to collect...Id do it again...


my issue is that the amounts owed are always a couple of hundred...its never thousands....i assume these gc's use different subs on ever job and screw them all....most subs dont bother spending the time and effort for $488 like i do....

this guy im having the issues with is different this time....most pay immediately upon the threat of lien or homeowner contact....this guy is silent.....it tells me he has $0 in his bank account....ive only run into this 1x before.....when i threaten to contact the homeowner i typically have a check in hand in 1 hour


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## Dave in Pa (Oct 10, 2009)

YEP! I think that the small claims, magistrate thing? Not worth the effort! That is what they hope for!! It seems to be under $500 every time!


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

sorry he did say GC not builder my bad...Chasing money sucks regardless of who owes it to you..... Most of the GC's I work for are on the smaller side so money hasn't been a problem. They need gutters for the C/O here or for final payment so they are pretty good to me.. Comes with the business I guess I used to hear my dad talk about collecting all the time when I was a kid..I hear ya about the lien threat have done it many times..Just frustrating that it gets to that point over a small amount of money..


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## CQC (Aug 5, 2013)

Always be ahead when it comes to payments whether they are coming from GC's or directly from homeowners. Your job is to perform your service or trade, not finance the project.


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## Stoneyard (Mar 30, 2014)

^Exactly!


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

3 basic street rules:

1 Get the money up front
2 Get the money up front
3 Get the money up front

Sometimes it's the only way.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Money up front is normally reserved for homeowners only.

I wish everyone paid in thirty days, some don't.

My worst recently was a house flipper who still doesn't understand the concept of change order.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

sending out the information/threat letter to the homeowner...letting them know i havent been paid and that i have started the lien process against them....im sure they will be very happy in a few days when they get the letter...its been 7 weeks, so odds are they have paid the GC already......im going to be very nice and accept a partial payment from them if they have to pay twice........ill be getting a nice phone call this friday or sat from an upset homeowner....i hate it when it comes to this


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## CQC (Aug 5, 2013)

Customers that are slow to pay or don't pay at all aren't customers worth having. We always have our payment terms in the payment schedule within our contract. All Change Orders are paid for at time of signing.

Good luck to you in getting paid, I know what a hassle that is.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

i will spend hours fíng around to get $488....its ALWAYS $200-400 range....and its never really worth my time....i do it because i refuse to lose.

im so tired of going through this 1-2x a year for 8 years now that im going to have a long talk with any new potential customers about this issue before working for them....tell them ahead of time that im a hard ass w/ collections from day 1....scare off the POS customers

i have enough builders right now.....id always like more, but i dont NEED more


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

huggytree said:


> i will spend hours fíng around to get $488....its ALWAYS $200-400 range....and its never really worth my time....i do it because i refuse to lose.
> 
> im so tired of going through this 1-2x a year for 8 years now that im going to have a long talk with any new potential customers about this issue before working for them....tell them ahead of time that im a hard ass w/ collections from day 1....scare off the POS customers
> 
> i have enough builders right now.....id always like more, but i dont NEED more


90% of your problems come from 10% of your clients.

Getting dicked around for a few bucks now and then is as sure thing as death and taxes.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Why are you still there to tell about it? After your first issue, this should have been over and done with.

With that said, just sent certified letter to the HO saying that you will be including them in a lawsuit because the builder haven't met his obligations paying you for the job you completed on theirs residence.

You will see how fast the checks will coming in.

Good luck


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

homeowner called....woooooow is she angry....with ME!...(also the builder)

she already paid him....of course

she said if i lien her house she will trash me on the internet
she said she will never pay me because she already paid

the builder who doesnt answer my calls or emails answered her angry text in 2 minutes while i was on the phone w/ her.....i dont know his excuse, but im sure he's telling a different story...i am mailing her all the invoices and checks received....everything to prove my story

because of her threat i will most likely not lien her house...i will most likely let it go and go to small claims court......i have never tried it before, so the experience is worth something to me...

i told her to call the DA and research theft by contractor.....let the DA put him in jail

anyone have any experience using theft by contractor?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> 90% of your problems come from 10% of your clients.
> 
> Getting dicked around for a few bucks now and then is as sure thing as death and taxes.


I've never had anyone not pay on time. The only one that came close waited to the last day. It was Menards when we reset their flooring department. They mailed it on the 30th day after invoice.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I've never had anyone not pay on time. The only one that came close waited to the last day. It was Menards when we reset their flooring department. They mailed it on the 30th day after invoice.


You must be in your first year of business.


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

So, this woman is going to 'Trash you on the internet' because SHE didn't do her homework before hiring this 'Builder'? Have your attorney write her a nice letter explaining the law - Specifically Slander and Defamation of character, in addition to the lien process. I've been hearing a lot lately about people who get on the internet to berate businesses with false claims and they're getting sued by said businesses for slander. And the businesses are winning most of these cases. I damn sure won't eat $500, even if I can afford it. It's the principle of it. I'm a very angry bulldog when someone owes me money. I'll spend $1000 on attorney fees to recover $100


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

got my $$ yesterday....he emailed his credit card #.....but then said i should deduct 1 hour because he had some kinda issue with the mixing valve(he used weird terms i couldnt understand)...i wrote him back saying ive never had an issue i couldnt fix in 5 mins + i spent $50 on the prelien and had a headache all day because of the issue....

homeowner didnt like me and yet she seems to like the guy who screwed her....the problem with the internet is anyone can say anything they want.... she can just post that i was a A hole.....what can i do about it....i have to prove im not a A hole?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

wow:huh:..how are you goin to do that?..:sad:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> You must be in your first year of business.


5th. :whistling:


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Bullcrap. Never, ever back down from a bully. Ohh thats fires me up more than anything. 

I had someone try that crap last fall over $200. I literally showed them a $7500 paycheck, told them I guarantee I can spend more money ruining your name than you can ruining mine. I need something to entertain myself anyways, you want to be it?

They paid.

Eff the bad reviews, I'd be on facebook, in the courts with about 30 frivolous lawsuits, etc... Those people woulda became overnight do it yourselfers after i got done with em. 

Don't ever back down from a bully, beat them ruthlessly & aggressively at their own game.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

huggytree said:


> got my $$ yesterday....he emailed his credit card #.....but then said i should deduct 1 hour because he had some kinda issue with the mixing valve(he used weird terms i couldnt understand)...i wrote him back saying ive never had an issue i couldnt fix in 5 mins + i spent $50 on the prelien and had a headache all day because of the issue....


I never charge a credit card more than what the cardholder authorizes. You could create a new problem for yourself by charging more than he authorizes, especially without a signature. I would accept the payment but refuse to produce a final waiver of lien.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

If there was a problem with the valve that he fixed he should have just called you to fix it.

Charge the full wack it sounds like this bridge is good and burned anyway!


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

Inner10 said:


> If there was a problem with the valve that he fixed he should have just called you to fix it.
> 
> Charge the full wack it sounds like this bridge is good and burned anyway!


Correct!.....he can make up anything he wants about the valve...ive done 1,000-2,000 shower valves in my career...i think ive screwed up 2 of them...very doubtful his was #3....

he's just a liar....im sure he's lying to the homeowner....he's lied to me about sending out checks......he wont even call me in person like a man...he hides behind his email account.....im not sending in the lien waver for 2 months...im making sure he's not disputing the charge....he also says now that he also sent a check in the mail too...he says to send it back..

i did call the homeowner to let her know im paid up....i explained once again to her that ive started the lien process on other customers of his and i also warned him 3x that i was going to put a lien on her too....im trying to show her that he didnt care until SHE called him....if it wasnt for the prelien and my threat letter getting her angry at him i wouldnt have gotten paid..

this time i thought i was going to lose....mainly because the homeowner wasnt on my side all the way....

before i take on new builders in the future should i hand them something explaining my process for getting paid by late paying gc's.....id like to, but i figure id scare off the good ones too....


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

homeowner is now writing threatening letters to my Lien company....saying they have no right to lien because she paid the GC........we discussed it on our last phone call, but she still doesnt get it....

i sure picked a good one to work for


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Sounds like someone doesn't understand how it works.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

im deciding on whether to send her a lien waver because of her threat to me....am i better to keep it and keep her guessing...or send it to her and give up the 1 thing i have that she wants.....i worry she will trash me either way, just because the internet has made it so easy to


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

If you've gotten your money (credit card charge) then you wouldn't be placing a lien, right?


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## littlefred811 (Dec 16, 2012)

Sounds to me like the lady doesn't want to understand. I've had a couple of them, and they are always the ones that up front promise to be your greatest reference. Jeesh!


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## Stoneyard (Mar 30, 2014)

Next time you work for a GC put a clause in the contract stating that payment will be made in full within 30 days or the juice starts running at 15% at day 31.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

huggytree said:


> homeowner is now writing threatening letters to my Lien company....saying they have no right to lien because she paid the GC........we discussed it on our last phone call, but she still doesnt get it....
> 
> i sure picked a good one to work for


Send her an email explaining how a lien works and why you had to do what you did. Tell her that legally you cannot remove your products from the home even if the GC doesn't pay you and this is the only way to secure your compensation.

If you discuss this civilly I guarantee she will take your side and make the GC look like mud.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

problem with this homeowner is she likes the builder more than me....i really dont think she cares if i get paid or not...she see's me as the enemy instead of the guy who tried to do theft by contractor....ive had this once before......people pick sides and sometimes its not the honest mans side....

she should have called me being upset with her builder....instead she was threatening me with bad reviews.......i explained the lien process to her....she kept saying'...i know, i know.....but i dont think she does.....i told her to contact her local DA and go after the builder.....

the process worked in the end....im still waiting for those bad reviews.....problem with the internet...someone can find fault and trash anyone.....she cant trash my work, but she doesnt like ME personally and can say im a horrible person...in her mind it will be true and i cant sue her for telling people im a A hole.

she is a nut case....it was visible pretty quickly when i met her....cheap as hell too....didnt want to pay $50 for the permit because hell...its $50!


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

Inner10 said:


> Send her an email explaining how a lien works and why you had to do what you did. Tell her that legally you cannot remove your products from the home even if the GC doesn't pay you and this is the only way to secure your compensation.
> 
> If you discuss this civilly I guarantee she will take your side and make the GC look like mud.


i know people pretty good....she's not the type to listen to someone she dislikes.....she was a difficult customer and wanted to spend 1 hour discussing my job before i did it...since it was only a 1.5 hour job i had to cut the conversation short after 20-30 minutes....she just kept talking about the same things over and over....we went downstairs to look at her water heater 3x.....she just kept talking,talking,talking....finally i had to figure out a way to say good bye....i thought i was smooth, but i guess i wasnt...she told me i was unprofessional on the phone .......she is a lonely lady who likes to keep talking and not listening......she seemed unstable......she wanted me to stick around and answer all her plumbing questions in every room of her house over and over....


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

huggytree said:


> i have a bunch of great builders....but im always looking for more
> 
> i send fliers out to all the builders in the area, so i get opportunities for new builders several time a year....its almost always the small/little guys...the ones you never really heard of that cause payment issues...
> 
> ...



$488 isnt a project.,,its a service call.. no pay no play


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

huggytree said:


> sending out the information/threat letter to the homeowner...letting them know i havent been paid and that i have started the lien process against them....im sure they will be very happy in a few days when they get the letter...its been 7 weeks, so odds are they have paid the GC already......im going to be very nice and accept a partial payment from them if they have to pay twice........ill be getting a nice phone call this friday or sat from an upset homeowner....i hate it when it comes to this


I did that twice in my life..both HOs pissed and said go after him..I said nope..easier to go after you because you care about your home.

he was your dog and he bit..

I honestly wont work for any new GC or builder without any money up front followed by any reasonable immediate payment upon completion.

most of the money i have been screwed out of was by being to eager to please and obtain new prospective accounts.

I am not a bank..I don't know them.I don't owe them nothing..they called me. we worked..they owe me.
my money is payable when I ask for it ..Period. or get someone else.

I had a GC tell me once that hes a GC and I have to give him 30 days..

i was like yea ok bud as we walked off the job.work partially paid..partially done..

they can explain to the HO why the floors weren't completed and why there is another crew or your own guys working on the floors.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

huggytree said:


> got my $$ yesterday....he emailed his credit card #.....but then said i should deduct 1 hour because he had some kinda issue with the mixing valve(he used weird terms i couldnt understand)...i wrote him back saying ive never had an issue i couldnt fix in 5 mins + i spent $50 on the prelien and had a headache all day because of the issue....
> 
> homeowner didnt like me and yet she seems to like the guy who screwed her....the problem with the internet is anyone can say anything they want.... she can just post that i was a A hole.....what can i do about it....i have to prove im not a A hole?



words to live by...HO has good judgement


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

huggytree said:


> im deciding on whether to send her a lien waver because of her threat to me....am i better to keep it and keep her guessing...or send it to her and give up the 1 thing i have that she wants.....i worry she will trash me either way, just because the internet has made it so easy to


you are paid..the lien being waived was an absolute condition of that.
otherwise why would he/they pay?

you can not hold it ransom..
if they default payment you need to start the process over again plus sue for added fees.time etc.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

i can hold it for a month or 2 to make sure he isnt disputing the credit card charges...i believe he has 120 days to dispute...so this Fall ill send the lien waver....

the homeowner isnt calling me asking for it.


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