# How do General Contractors charge?



## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

Hello Fellas,
I just moved to Texas from Kansas and found your forum. I have been framing houses for some time now, but I am thinking about starting my own deal here in Texas. I have a few questions if y'all don't mind me asking:

1) How do general contractors charge their clients, on say a home build or remodel?

2) If they take a percentage of the total build costs, which is how I think they do it in Kansas, then do they pay for all of the subs out of their own pocket? Or is it paid at the end of the build and the home owner pays all the subs? 

Any information you can give me would really help. Thanks guys.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

I try to get 1000% mark up.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

or a million, which ever is the lesser amount.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

BigJake said:


> 2) If they take a percentage of the total build costs, which is how I think they do it in Kansas, then do they pay for all of the subs out of their own pocket? Or is it paid at the end of the build and the home owner pays all the subs?
> 
> .


Lot's of variables here, it's not a simple answer.

Google Fixed Contract and then Cost Plus Contracts. They are two different animals.

You've got a LOT of learning to do, and in NO CASE do subs wait until the homeowner pays at the END to pay them. Or you will lose that sub.


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

I don't think I was clear enough. Let me try again. 

Usually its done 2 ways correct? The first is cost plus deal where the GC charges an over all % of the total cost of the project. Is that right?

The other is a flat fee that gets negotiated before the build begins. If the costs go over, the GC's fee doesn't change. 

Now, my true question is this: How do GC's get paid? Do they run all the costs through their business, then pay out the subs as they complete their task and keep whats left? 

Or, does the home owner pay the subs out of their construction loan as the subs complete the work and then they pay the GC at the completion of the build? 

I'm building to a greater overall question here, I just wanted to know the answer to this one first. 

Again, thank you.


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

BrandConst said:


> or a million, which ever is the lesser amount.


Do you have any useful information?


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

BigJake said:


> I don't think I was clear enough. Let me try again.
> 
> Usually its done 2 ways correct? The first is cost plus deal where the GC charges an over all % of the total cost of the project. Is that right?
> 
> ...


Yes, no, sometimes, maybe. :jester:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

BigJake said:


> Do you have any useful information?


Sure, tree fiddy + cost (current temperature(current price of gold+cost of subs))=how gcs charge.


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

Why do you believe you're ready to be a contractor if you don't even know how to charge for being one?? Work for someone a year or two and get close to the manager.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I.m sorry you're getting a bunch of smart-a$$ answers here, but the problem is that your question is too broad and complex for a simple answer. And questions like these gives us the impression that you are in way over your head.


To the other posters: You guys are doing what angus just asked us not to do.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

A.T.C. said:


> I.m sorry you're getting a bunch of smart-a$$ answers here, but the problem is that your question is too broad and complex for a simple answer. And questions like these gives us the impression that you are in way over your head.
> 
> To the other posters: You guys are doing what angus just asked us not to do.


In fairness I did report myself...


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Enough already with the stupid answers.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> In fairness I did report myself...


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

BigJake said:


> I don't think I was clear enough. Let me try again.
> 
> Usually its done 2 ways correct? The first is cost plus deal where the GC charges an over all % of the total cost of the project. Is that right?
> 
> ...


You sound more like a HO asking how a job works....:whistling


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

A.T.C. said:


> I.m sorry you're getting a bunch of smart-a$$ answers here, but the problem is that your question is too broad and complex for a simple answer. And questions like these gives us the impression that you are in way over your head.
> 
> 
> To the other posters: You guys are doing what angus just asked us not to do.


I'm a moderator on a few sports message boards. I can see how this type of question would bring out the very best in people. 

Anyway, I have framed houses and done many other things for years. I understand the construction process very well. It put me through college. 

However, I have never been a GC on a new home build. I could walk up and build it, but I am not sure of the financial aspects. There are a lot of "builders" out there who do it all. There are also a lot of GC's out there who don't pick up a tool. I want to know how it works.


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

It depends on your market, and your product, your sales budget and system and your customer. For the most part small projects like a kitchen remodel, bath remodel, or a small house 300k or so. The GC’s round here just submit a fixed cost bid. On the big stuff it seems like they take a management fee and the rest goes to bid. It really depends on what you are offering. Some of the GC gets as little as 2%-3% some are getting 150%.

For me it depends on what we are doing, and who the sub is. My electrician is fantastic. He has always been 100% accurate, very efficient, and customers love him. I will mark him up just a little, my granite guy is the opposite, his work is fantastic, but he is a mess, he is always underestimating the cost of materials, truck breaks down, tools break whatever. I mark him up 200%. And for the record I gladly pay my electrician $75 an hour the granite guy is lucky to get $20


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

hope that helps


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

griz said:


> You sound more like a HO asking how a job works....:whistling


Thank you. A draw system. I wondered how all these contractors could afford to pay these subs out of their own pocket. They set up the draw system and have it pay out accordingly. There might be a few days overlap I assume, but in general you aren't out a ton of money for months on end. 

I guess, in the end, the HO has no idea how much the GC is getting paid unless they have had multiple bids from many other builders/GC's.


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

Scribbles said:


> hope that helps


It does help. Thanks.


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

BigJake said:


> Thank you. A draw system. I wondered how all these contractors could afford to pay these subs out of their own pocket. They set up the draw system and have it pay out accordingly. There might be a few days overlap I assume, but in general you aren't out a ton of money for months on end.
> 
> I guess, in the end, the HO has no idea how much the GC is getting paid unless they have had multiple bids from many other builders/GC's.


Why does it matter what the GC is getting paid to the homeowner?
Do you compare new cars by the salary of the ceo or the cars value?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Scribbles said:


> It depends on your market, and your product, your sales budget and system and your customer. For the most part small projects like a kitchen remodel, bath remodel, or a small house 300k or so. The GC’s round here just submit a fixed cost bid. On the big stuff it seems like they take a management fee and the rest goes to bid. It really depends on what you are offering. Some of the GC gets as little as 2%-3% some are getting 150%.
> 
> For me it depends on what we are doing, and who the sub is. My electrician is fantastic. He has always been 100% accurate, very efficient, and customers love him. I will mark him up just a little, my granite guy is the opposite, his work is fantastic, but he is a mess, he is always underestimating the cost of materials, truck breaks down, tools break whatever. I mark him up 200%. And for the record I gladly pay my electrician $75 an hour the granite guy is lucky to get $20


You need a new granite guy. Subtract a few starters and slab from his overhead and you could afford a good one.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

If I was you I would go and take a position in a design build firm and take alot of notes from the guys you want to be. You will in the end save yourself tons of money while gaining priceless education.


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

Scribbles said:


> Why does it matter what the GC is getting paid to the homeowner?
> Do you compare new cars by the salary of the ceo or the cars value?


I am failing to understand your analogy here. In one way a GC gets paid, the GC's fee is apparent. In the other, it isn't. I would assume that's the way most GC's opt for correct? That way the HO has no idea how much they are getting paid?


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> In fairness I did report myself...


:laughing:


You do realise you are on double secret probation... don't you?


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> You need a new granite guy. Subtract a few starters and slab from his overhead and you could afford a good one.


ya think lol:laughing:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

moorewarner said:


> :laughing:
> 
> You do realise you are on double secret probation... don't you?


Im sure.. I probably deserved it.


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

BigJake said:


> I am failing to understand your analogy here. In one way a GC gets paid, the GC's fee is apparent. In the other, it isn't. I would assume that's the way most GC's opt for correct? That way the HO has no idea how much they are getting paid?


You don’t understand the analogy because you don’t run a business, and have no idea what overhead is.

Fee is part of an equation, not the answer.


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

Scribbles said:


> You don’t understand the analogy because you don’t run a business, and have no idea what overhead is.
> 
> Fee is part of an equation, not the answer.


Go on.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Big Jake, Start here:

http://www.contractortalk.com/f16/pricing-estimating-success-27899/


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

This is all dependent on you knowing how to brake a project down to its components. Becouse if you miss something it's your ass. I'm a new GC and it's my biggest fear.


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

griz said:


> Big Jake, Start here:
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f16/pricing-estimating-success-27899/


What Mr. Phillips describes here is the very first class in any MBA program in this country. It was in mine. I appreciate the link and I appreciate his post. However, I was more concerned with the process of it all. Certainly I googled it and read all there was about it. 

The process was a little bit fuzzy to me. So, worded very poorly, I asked you guys a questions. I thank you to the people that answered it legitimately. 

As I said, I had framed houses for many years, but I never paid much attention to the process of it all. That was my fault. I haven't framed a home in 8 years. All of this is a little bit fuzzy to me honestly. 

I am not hanging out my shingle tomorrow and going to start contracting. I am going to go home and hang out with some builder buddies of mine first. 

This all might be a pipe dream honestly. I own 2 businesses right now and at least one would have to go first.


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

Scribbles said:


> You don’t understand the analogy because you don’t run a business, and have no idea what overhead is.
> 
> Fee is part of an equation, not the answer.


I appreciate your information earlier. And you are partially correct. I don't own a GC business.


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

Scribbles said:


> It depends on your market, and your product, your sales budget and system and your customer. For the most part small projects like a kitchen remodel, bath remodel, or a small house 300k or so. The GC’s round here just submit a fixed cost bid. On the big stuff it seems like they take a management fee and the rest goes to bid. It really depends on what you are offering. Some of the GC gets as little as 2%-3% some are getting 150%.
> 
> For me it depends on what we are doing, and who the sub is. My electrician is fantastic. He has always been 100% accurate, very efficient, and customers love him. I will mark him up just a little, my granite guy is the opposite, his work is fantastic, but he is a mess, he is always underestimating the cost of materials, truck breaks down, tools break whatever. I mark him up 200%. And for the record I gladly pay my electrician $75 an hour the granite guy is lucky to get $20


Good post, put some light on questions I have been struggling with since I started 3 yr. ago.


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

Customers want to enjoy the process. 

Think of it like this, you want to go to Harvard. Everyone get perfect grades. That is par for the course; everyone gets a perfect sat, again just par. So you study hard and do everything you need to get a 4.0 and get an 1600 on your sat. But guess what the other 20k applicants are the same. What make the difference? Extras.

Your quality as a contractor must be perfect. That just par for the course. So you are as good as a thousand other contractors in your area. Why are you better, why should you be worth something extra, what do you offering that the other guy doesn’t, focus and build your business on this.

80% of businesses fail. That is par for the course, do you want to be par?


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

BigJake said:


> Thank you. A draw system. I wondered how all these contractors could afford to pay these subs out of their own pocket. They set up the draw system and have it pay out accordingly. There might be a few days overlap I assume, but in general you aren't out a ton of money for months on end.
> 
> I guess, in the end, the HO has no idea how much the GC is getting paid unless they have had multiple bids from many other builders/GC's.


Now this does really make you sound like a home owner!


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Big Jake, welcome to our community. I'm sorry you got beat up here, but we get questions from DIYers and hacks on here pretty regular, and not to be an ass, your questions lean in the DIY and HO direction. I've been known to be a jerk myself... I'm going to take you at your word your a carpenter who wants to be a builder, I've been there.

There are many ways to charge as a GC. Time and Materials, Cost Plus a percentage, Cost Plus a percentage with a cap, Cost Plus a fixed rate, Fixed Cost Bid. There are many ways. The main thing to know when contracting is Labor +Materials+ Overhead+Profit equals your price. This is very basic, but I'm not going into graphic detail on the web. If you want more information, PM me.

BTW, welcome to Central Texas. If you like BBQ, Mexican food, cold beer, hunting and fishing and beautiful women, you will love it.


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

jawtrs said:


> Big Jake, welcome to our community. I'm sorry you got beat up here, but we get questions from DIYers and hacks on here pretty regular, and not to be an ass, your questions lean in the DIY and HO direction. I've been known to be a jerk myself... I'm going to take you at your word your a carpenter who wants to be a builder, I've been there.
> 
> There are many ways to charge as a GC. Time and Materials, Cost Plus a percentage, Cost Plus a percentage with a cap, Cost Plus a fixed rate, Fixed Cost Bid. There are many ways. The main thing to know when contracting is Labor +Materials+ Overhead+Profit equals your price. This is very basic, but I'm not going into graphic detail on the web. If you want more information, PM me.
> 
> BTW, welcome to Central Texas. If you like BBQ, Mexican food, cold beer, hunting and fishing and beautiful women, you will love it.


Hunting?

In utah We have dogs bigger than the deer in Texas.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Ninjaframer said:


> Hunting?
> 
> In utah We have dogs bigger than the deer in Texas.


 They aren't huge but big racks, and the neighboring county is the deer capitol of the world. If it wasn't great, why do people fly from other states and pay 10,000$ for a lease? Lol

Also dove and pigs my friend. I killed over 250 DOVE this year.

250 DOVE. Lol. Only 3 deer.

Actually most leases around here are 1500 to 3500. Its hard to find a poor boy lease anymore. 

I do know a few high fence places that charge 3000 for management deer and up to 20000 for a trophy. Ridiculous what lawyers will pay...

Can't argue deer here are like overgrown rabbits. South Texas has some big deer.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

jawtrs said:


> They aren't huge but big racks, and the neighboring county is the deer capitol of the world. If it wasn't great, why do people fly from other states and pay 10,000$ for a lease? Lol
> 
> Also dove and pigs my friend. I killed over 250 deer this year.


Any bumper tags in that number?:whistling:laughing::laughing:


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

Ours are big enough you only need to shoot one a year  I lived in Arlington for awhile. all though Birch says that's not in Texas  Aparently if your north of some river your a Yankee.


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

My thanks button is missing at the moment...I'll just say it. I agree with Knuck.


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

knucklehead said:


> I think it is a stupid question. I have been working a long time to know what I know and I am not giving up info to just any Tom,Dick, or Harry that comes along and thinks he want to be a contractor. Maybe that is just me.


I bet we know a lot of the same people. 

Again, I didn't ask what they charged, I asked how. 

The reason I asked is because the last 2 guys I worked for went broke with in a year of going out on their own. They were framing for builders and doing well. Then, one day they decide to be builders and hang out a shingle and went flat broker pretty quickly. 

I have seen and spoken to a few builders that couldn't think their way out of a locked car from the inside, but they were successful. I also worked for a GC one time that was freaking brilliant. He could call you on the nextel and talk you through anything on the house sight unseen. But the guy was always losing jobs and going broke.


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

The problem with that is now these guys go off half cocked. Don't have a clue what to charge, underbid and ruin the market for the rest of us.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Ninjaframer said:


> The problem with that is now these guys go off half cocked. Don't have a clue what to charge, underbid and ruin the market for the rest of us.


Which is exactly why I see no problem with the way the question was originally phrased, coupled with more explanation.

WHAT to charge always turns into a mess. But HOW to charge is a different animal. The OP's question was the different methods of structuring a contract. Albeit the very first post did look "HO ish" he has recovered IMO and what's wrong with having a discussion on Fixed vs: Cost Plus?

Only the Craigs List fake contractors have things to hide. The rest of us should have no problem discussing the way a contract is set up.

I don't see the problem. Enlighten me.


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

rselectric1 said:


> Which is exactly why I see no problem with the way the question was originally phrased, coupled with more explanation.
> 
> WHAT to charge always turns into a mess. But HOW to charge is a different animal. The OP's question was the different methods of structuring a contract. Albeit the very first post did look "HO ish" he has recovered IMO and what's wrong with having a discussion on Fixed vs: Cost Plus?
> 
> ...


My post was in response to knucklehead. This " I had to learn the hard way so I'm not helpin anyone" attitude is actualy harmful to ones self for the reason I stated above. Destruction of the market by underbidding. 
I have to say I think this forum is awesome for getting help though. I've got tons of help when I had a question. It's true no one can give you your price, nor should they. If you can't come up with your own price you should not be in business. But contract wording, cost plus vs fixed cost, how to go about bidding and how to operate a business should be topics that are encouraged.


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

I honestly assumed that most, if not all GC's just marked up the entire cost of the build about 10%. 

But these posts have helped me out a ton, and told me that I have a lot more research to do.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

knucklehead said:


> I think it is a stupid question. I have been working a long time to know what I know and I am not giving up info to just any *Tom,Dick, or Harry *that comes along and thinks he want to be a contractor. Maybe that is just me.


This guy's name is Jake! :laughing:


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## Knauer (Jan 12, 2012)

BigJake said:


> I bet we know a lot of the same people.
> 
> Again, I didn't ask what they charged, I asked how.
> 
> ...


When we build. Subs on our list get plans sent to them, sometimes it goes to a few plumbers, hvac etc. they submit a fixed bid. Only time the price changes is when a customer changes the plan ie add under cab lights. Customer gets charged a fee and cost of additional labor/material. We take a large fee as down payment. Then another payment is due at each stage. Underground/ext. rough trim. Some subs we mark up a lot some we dont but we add a flat fee on the top of the whole job just for being gc plus we figure our time into the job. It's a rather detailed process. Expect to deal with every problem (hence the gc fee) if a sub screws up deal with it get it fixed back charge who you need to. And remember pay each sub and have the terms set in stone do not make them wait once their job is finished pay up or good luck using them again.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I agree RS, I think it is actually more harmful to our market to have guys not knowing how to charge properly. I will absolutley go out of my way to impart whatever small knowledge I have to a colleague who has the practical knowledge to be a GC, meaning he knows how to build. I am not going to educate someone on how to endanger and rip off HOs and dilute my market, if they don't have the skills required and needed to do what they are doing. 

I hope this guy is really a nail pounder who doesn't know how to contract for jobs, like he said. I'm not going into great detail here, as I can't tell if he is worth it yet from the few posts he has written. 

Fixed cost bid: 

You make a spec sheet for everything with the client, or give allowances and bid the project for one price. Normally you wouldn't break down the bid for the ho, you add profit and overhead to the bid and you are responsible for the entire project being built to specs for that price. If your honest, you will give decent allowances if everything isn't speced before the bid.

Cost Plus a fixed fee:

You estimate the project, give a proposal to Ho with a fixed fee. " I estimate the project at 200000, my builders fee is 35,000$. " If the project comes in at 167,000$ you still get 35,000$ , at 225,000$ you get 35,000$ , unless the HO made changes, you add your mark up to the changes. If it comes in over budget for no reason, you won't he in business long and may even be terminated.

Cost Plus a Fixed Rate: 

Same as cost plus but you have a set mark up. If your mark up is 20% , you add 20% to everything. If your smart and established, charge for PM time as well.

Time and Materials: 

Labor rate is X per hour, plus materials. Often still requires a ball park estimate, should be close, I like to be under.

Cost Plus and T and M is not for everyone. Many rookies try to use it as a security blanket, big mistake. Only experienced contractors should charge this way, imo. If you are inaccurate because of inexperience in your estimate, your ripping your client off. Your rep will be trashed, and in this business , especially in this market, your word and rep is all you have. The only way a rookie is going to know how long something should take, is if he's done it before for someone else, imo.


Mark ups vary on many things. Your demand in the market, your availability, type of project, many things. 

Every trade has its rewards and its calling, for me being a GC is the only thing I would ever want to do. Everything about it appeals to me. The work itself, even in extreme tempetures, doing grueling, back breaking, mind numbing labor like digging a trench in granite with a grub and hoe, or busting up a slab with a sledge. Even when I'm cursing the heat/cold and the filthy, hard work, at the end of the day, when my hands are so busted up I can't close them, my shoulders and arms and back are on fire, I can say, I got it done. The **** work leads to the prize work. As a GC I still jump in and mix it up with my guys, I will still bust my ass tying grid together in a slab or digging a ditch if need be. I have always figured when doing something I don't like or want to do, this is a small peice to pay for getting to do what I like to do most of the time. When coming up through the trades, it was a means to an end, I don't believe anyone ever paid me a dime they didn't believe I earned, and I'm very proud of that.

I have even grown to love the actual contracting part. The initial meeting, the building the project in my head and on paper, writing scopes and contracts, making deals, directing employees and subs, using knowledge instead of brawn to earn my bread. 

Its worth the metal taste I get in my mouth and the nausea I get when I'm bidding a project I have to land to keep myself and my employees working, when a project I am counting on falls through and all the work I have is exterior and its raining. Its worth finishing a contract or a scope at 12 am when I have to be at the office at 630. 

Its worth it for me because of the elation at landing the big one, the joy and a special pride that comes from seeing a project come to fruition, and my team delivered their dreams that I promised. I love the freedom of being the boss.

Being any kind of contractor takes discipline, patience and guts to be successful. Its not for the faint of heart. A king ranch pick up and a big house doesn't come standard, I promise.

If this is what you want, go for it, and good luck. Have faith in your self. Build a great team of subs and/or employees and pay them well and on time. Don't act like they owe you something , you can't do it alone. Always be learning. 

Sorry for the long, ranting post.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

jawtrs said:


> ... Sorry for the long, ranting post.



Hey jaws, go ahead and rant any time...:thumbup:

Nice post..:thumbup:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Also, stick around, there really is a lot of good info here, just don't read my posts.LoL


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Hey jaws,

Don't sell yourself short...:thumbsup:

Your post should be Contractor 101 required reading...:thumbsup:


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

Good read jaw. Ditto


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## Hmbldr (Dec 7, 2011)

jawrts - really great post. Not a rant at all, but very well said. Reaffirms a lot of ideals. Thanks for offering it up. :thumbsup:


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Hey jaw, I really liked that one! Very succinct, lots of good info, great basic rundown. Keep 'em coming!!:thumbsup:


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

jawtrs said:


> They aren't huge but big racks, and the neighboring county is the deer capitol of the world. If it wasn't great, why do people fly from other states and pay 10,000$ for a lease? Lol
> 
> Also dove and pigs my friend. I killed over 250 DOVE this year.
> 
> ...


German Shepards with horns! my lease is in llano, deer capital of texas, not the world. Most beautiful place I've ever hunted.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

BrandConst said:


> German Shepards with horns! my lease is in l:laughing, deer capital of texas, not the world. Most beautiful place I've ever hunted.


Mines in Round Mountain which is Llano county. Texas has the largest population of deer in the US by quite a maargin. Maybe they should say whitetail Capitol of the world. I think the sign does say Texas, not the world though. :laughing:


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Here's a question-

how can the O.P. imply that he has an MBA, state that he owns 2 other businesses,and mention that he was a framing carpenter 8 years ago--and not already know the answer to these questions?

only way I can figure it is the O.P is bogus
OR
He went to the absolute worst MBA program in the country

Hey- I could be wrong,but wadda I know, I'm just a dumb roofer!,LOL
stephen


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

BrandConst said:


> German Shepards with horns! my lease is in l:laughing, deer capital of texas, not the world. Most beautiful place I've ever hunted.


Double


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Stephen H said:


> Here's a question-
> 
> how can the O.P. imply that he has an MBA, state that he owns 2 other businesses,and mention that he was a framing carpenter 8 years ago--and not already know the answer to these questions?
> 
> ...



I know lots of carpenters who don't know how to contract, and I don't know, but I doubt they go over how to charge as a GC in Harvard business:no::laughing:


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

Rant on Jaws :thumbsup: A heartfelt post that clearly depicts what we do :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

jawtrs said:


> I know lots of carpenters who don't know how to contract, and I don't know, but I doubt they go over how to charge as a GC in Harvard business:no::laughing:


naw- not plausible.
the contracting world is populated by a fair number of people who didn't graduate from highschool-and yet succeed

but
the O.P. worked his way through business school as a Framing carpenter-and yet failed to pay attention to the "business" end of the business he was working in????
doesn't pass the sniff test
it would be like a librarian-who can't read???- not plausible.

we are talking about business fundementals-not about some esoteric branch of knowledge.
perfectly plausible that a carpenter might not know this---
barely credible that a MBA wouldn't know it
completely impossible that a carpenter who worked his way through an MBA program wouldn't already know this.
stephen


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Stephen H said:


> naw- not plausible.
> the contracting world is populated by a fair number of people who didn't graduate from highschool-and yet succeed
> 
> but
> ...


Makes sense, hoping its not the case though.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

jawtrs said:


> Mines in Round Mountain which is Llano county. Texas has the largest population of deer in the US by quite a maargin. Maybe they should say whitetail Capitol of the world. I think the sign does say Texas, not the world though. :laughing:


The sign is a little misleading when you pull into town, it says the deer capital of Texas but....if you do the research and find the statistics from the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, Llano has the second highest density of deer per square mile in Texas. Number one belongs to Johnson Space Center in Clear Lake, just down the road from me. It can't be hunted at all. People try to poach from time to time with a bow in there back seat but always get caught. It's actually over populated and what they do about it is have bioligists trap does feed them some sort of stuff that sterilizes them. Pretty intersting stuff.

Mines on CR215B


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Stephen H said:


> Here's a question-
> 
> how can the O.P. imply that he has an MBA, state that he owns 2 other businesses,and mention that he was a framing carpenter 8 years ago--and not already know the answer to these questions?
> 
> ...


I was going to make a post regarding the MBA issue, and then I saw you had already addressed it. Even if they don't teach the basics of business at a MBA school, it is graduate school. He had to get a BA or BS in business, management, accounting or econ, or have a high powered enough bachelors in another study area, get high GRE scores and not be any kind of dummy to be accepted into a MBA program. But the types of questions, especially the remedial nature of the original post, sure begs some questions.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Scribbles said:


> Customers want to enjoy the process.
> 
> Think of it like this, you want to go to Harvard. Everyone get perfect grades. That is par for the course; everyone gets a perfect sat, again just par. So you study hard and do everything you need to get a 4.0 and get an 1600 on your sat. But guess what the other 20k applicants are the same. What make the difference? Extras.
> 
> ...



I know this should be obvious, but to me, _that is framabl_e. Well said, and I thank you for writing it. I just may print that sucker out and staple it to the doors of my trailer as a reason to work that extra hour to make sure it's right, buy a new board if I cut one wrong, etc., etc., etc. That is why...


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

knucklehead said:


> I think it is a stupid question. I have been working a long time to know what I know and I am not giving up info to just any Tom,Dick, or Harry that comes along and thinks he want to be a contractor. Maybe that is just me.


What if everyone had that attitude? No one would learn from anyone. I have the complete opposite opinion: if I discover a better way of doing something, I'm more than happy to share what I know to anyone who wants to know it. If that puts me out of business than I suppose I'll be forced to deal with that issue then. But, that's the way I live my life and that's more important to me than this business, or any business for that matter. I've given "free" advice to HO's who asked me how to do this or that because they couldn't afford to hire someone.

Sorry for the rant, the post just kinda rubbed me the wrong way.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I guess someone ran the OP off.


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

Stephen H said:


> Here's a question-
> 
> how can the O.P. imply that he has an MBA, state that he owns 2 other businesses,and mention that he was a framing carpenter 8 years ago--and not already know the answer to these questions?
> 
> ...


They didn't teach me how to be GC at Baker. Maybe they should have. But then, they would have to call it a MGC I think.


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

I think you guys assumed to much. First of all, I worked as a framer and deck builder in my undergrad: Kansas State 05

Then, after getting a degree in financial planning, I went to work as.............A financial planner. Go figure

While building my business I decided to go to Business School and got my MBA from Baker University class of '10. 

I never said I worked my way through my MBA program as a carpenter. 

To tell you the truth, all those years working in an office, I was dreaming about being out with the guys building houses and decks. I loved it. I have always loved it. My grandfather was a retired carpenter. As was my uncle. They were both union guys and it was all they talked about when I was a little kid. I idolized those guys. 

My other uncle is a retired super from JE Dunn. I told him about what I was thinking about: I.E. starting a new business. He told me "You're F-ing insane". 


So, I appreciate your feed back. If you would like to know anything else about me, please just ask. 

If you have any useful information I am all ears. 

Thanks again. 

BTW: My GPA in my MBA was 4.0
My GPA as an undergrad was drinking and boobs


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Where in CENTEX are you, Jake?


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

Oh, and for the deer argument that seemed to find its way into this thread: When I first moved to Texas my father in law said that they have bigger dear in Texas than in Kansas. I laughed in his face.

We were both right actually. The deer in the colder states: CO, KS, NE, UT ect are much bigger. Body wise. But the racks in Texas are bigger than all those states. There are more trophy dear harvested in Texas every year than any where else in the country. 

For the record: Texas has big racks


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

jawtrs said:


> Where in CENTEX are you, Jake?


I live in San Antonio right now, but I am moving to Meridian, TX in a few weeks. I need a change and so does my wife. I have been traveling all over the country for the last 3 years straight. 

I miss working my cattle and working outside. I want to make this work if possible. Thank you for your feed back, now I just have to sift through all the BS and get the information, that is much appreciated BTW.


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## mk5065 (May 25, 2009)

BigJake said:


> Thank you. A draw system. I wondered how all these contractors could afford to pay these subs out of their own pocket. They set up the draw system and have it pay out accordingly. There might be a few days overlap I assume, but in general you aren't out a ton of money for months on end.
> 
> I guess, in the end, the HO has no idea how much the GC is getting paid unless they have had multiple bids from many other builders/GC's.


Not all the time. I let them know about my g.c. fees if they ask. I'm not ashamed of it because we all know what goes into it! People that can't get that are people to watch out for in my opinion. And I know what they say about opinions! Lol


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

I showed the guy I'm building a home for now what my profit was. He asked.
What was I supposed to say.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

BigJake said:
 

> Oh, and for the deer argument that seemed to find its way into this thread: When I first moved to Texas my father in law said that they have bigger dear in Texas than in Kansas. I laughed in his face.
> 
> We were both right actually. The deer in the colder states: CO, KS, NE, UT ect are much bigger. Body wise. But the racks in Texas are bigger than all those states. There are more trophy dear harvested in Texas every year than any where else in the country.
> 
> For the record: Texas has big racks


Mayne more but the biggest is from right here in xenia ohio.


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

Since we're talkin huntin have y'all seen this


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## Hmbldr (Dec 7, 2011)

Ninjaframer said:


> I showed the guy I'm building a home for now what my profit was. He asked.
> What was I supposed to say.


'None of your business.'

And you have no profit... yet. That's what left when you finish. I hope it goes well for you.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Ninjaframer said:


> I showed the guy I'm building a home for now what my profit was. He asked.
> What was I supposed to say.


 Depends on the person for me. I won't do cost plus on a kitchen or bath because I have what most people consider a high mark up. Because they are ignorant of what it it takes to do a kitchen or bath. There is still a lot of homework, contract and scope, design and selections and almost as many subs. That's a lot of time and trips for say, a 15 or 20% like a custom home or addition. 20% of a 30,000 kitchen or a 15,000 bath is not enough to pay for the systems we use.

If it is a fixed bid, its none of their business imo. I have told some clients what my mark up was, but not often. 

If they feel the kitchen is worth what I charge, they pay it. If not, call someone else. Most people would think I'm making an enourmus profit of that mark IP, I'm not making more than I should, they just don't realize what goes into it, although some do.

On a custom home its to competitive to for ME to get a more than "market average":laughing: mark up, especially when my costs are higher because my subs and employees are a better quality and thus more expensive. They almost always know my mark up on a custom or addition.


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

Hmbldr said:


> 'None of your business.'
> 
> And you have no profit... yet. That's what left when you finish. I hope it goes well for you.


Maybe after a few years I'll have the cajones to say none of your business  I thought I was doing good not to shake while he read through the contract.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Ninjaframer said:


> Since we're talkin huntin have y'all seen this


 Wow. Did you do that?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Ninjaframer said:


> Maybe after a few years I'll have the cajones to say none of your business  I thought I was doing good not to shake while he read through the contract.


 Been there buddy. I would be doing things a lot different (wrong) if I wasn't getting the benefit of working with a seasoned builder in my dad.


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

jawtrs said:


> Wow. Did you do that?


No- it was takin in Utah though. The guy was hunting alone and put his camera on a tripod with a timer. He didn't know the lion was there till the next day when he looked at the picture.


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

jawtrs said:


> Been there buddy. I would be doing things a lot different (wrong) if I wasn't getting the benefit of working with a seasoned builder in my dad.


In hind site it probably would have been funny to watch. I was very nervous but was doing good to hide it ( I thought) My owner had his buddy with him who lives across the street from the new home and this guy was heckling me the whole time. I must have been fidgety cause this guy was sayin things like " you afraid he wont sign" and "what do ya mean your not doin this or that" " I dont want any F-in riff raff raggedy house bringing my property value down" . He was just joking but it was a tough couple hours.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

Ninjaframer said:


> Since we're talkin huntin have y'all seen this


Ohh chit!! 

Is that pic real or photoshop?


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

100% real. Makes your butt pucker don't it?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Ninjaframer said:


> 100% real. Makes your butt pucker don't it?


it does. I actually didn't see it until after I read this.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

Ninjaframer said:


> 100% real. Makes your butt pucker don't it?


Not pucker, I almost dropped one for the guy when I saw that thing! Did you know the guy...that's crazy.


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## Ninjaframer (May 28, 2011)

He's a friend of a friend, my lumber reps buddy.


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## Master Mechanic (Oct 25, 2006)

*Buy/rehab and rent property or buy/rehab and flip in this market*

Delete


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

BigJake said:


> I think you guys assumed to much. First of all, I worked as a framer and deck builder in my undergrad: Kansas State 05
> 
> Then, after getting a degree in financial planning, I went to work as.............A financial planner. Go figure
> 
> ...


 sooooo,- you worked your way ththrough an undergrad degree in finance as a framer and didn't pay any attention to the financial end of the industry you were working in?
and you got a 4.0 in your MBA program and you are asking THESE types of questions?
nope,sorry, simply not plausible.

stephen


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## BigJake (Jan 10, 2012)

Stephen H said:


> sooooo,- you worked your way ththrough an undergrad degree in finance as a framer and didn't pay any attention to the financial end of the industry you were working in?
> and you got a 4.0 in your MBA program and you are asking THESE types of questions?
> nope,sorry, simply not plausible.
> 
> stephen


Are you serious man? You are calling to question my education? 

This is beyond absurd. The vitriol on this board amazes me.


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

Stephen H said:


> sooooo,- you worked your way ththrough an undergrad degree in finance as a framer and didn't pay any attention to the financial end of the industry you were working in?
> and you got a 4.0 in your MBA program and you are asking THESE types of questions?
> nope,sorry, simply not plausible.
> 
> stephen


How many times have you heard about that when an employee finds out how much the boss got paid for a job, they suddenly feel like they deserve more money because in their opinion the boss is making so much on the job. The employee really has no idea what the full costs to run a company are. 

I highly doubt Jake's boss said, well you're going to business school, come take a look at the books with me.

My older brother went to school for business and has a bunch of degrees. Last year he decided to start his own company. Guess who he called for advice? Me. And I have no formal business education. 

So I say all that to say, I do think his story is plausible.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

BigJake said:


> Are you serious man? You are calling to question my education?
> 
> This is beyond absurd. The vitriol on this board amazes me.


Man, stop it with the big words! That's cruel or vitriol!! :whistling


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

BrandConst said:


> Man, stop it with the big words! That's cruel or vitriol!! :whistling


I had to google it too :whistling:laughing:


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Ninjaframer said:


> Since we're talkin huntin have y'all seen this


Have to wonder if the camera flash saved his butt. 

Sorry, had to comment on that pic.


Back to our regular programming.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

RemodelGA said:


> I had to google it too :whistling:laughing:


I thought it was some new kind of viagra the guy was promoting! :whistling


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

I think that everyone who cared to comment positively has done so, and very nicely I might add. Jaw's post is worthy of a sticky but it is buried in this thread.

This poster has gotten one of the worst hazings I have ever seen here and he seemed to hold his own quite well.

Since I can't see this thread going anywhere but south, I am going to close it now.

OP, keep posting in the other sections as you have and you'll get used to us soon enough. I think you've earned your wings but this thread seems to have gone haywire.

Closed.


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