# New Stone Work - Your honest opinion please!



## GTXBuilder (Nov 28, 2017)

Hello,

I recently had stone work done on a new house. Please take a look and give me your honest feedback.

Thank you,

G


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

My two cents worth....

Pic 1...stonework too high, looks out of proportion

Pic 2....obnoxious vertical line to left of small upper window in center of pic. Expansion joint????

Pic 3....joints look a tad wide. I prefer tighter laid stone work.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Looks like low bid, most likely illegal alien, cheesy tiny mixer. marginal scaffolding....

Stones smeared, Bond, James Bond maybe..... that inside corner, I could use to climb to the soffit, then CONTROL JOINTS on Peon masonry........I don't recall many CJs on old school peasant hovels...

Late Neo- Classical Multi-cultural tuscany/ southWest no-Where style/design---not all the crappe stonework's fault, some the drunken window placement/sizing...... Hilly lots are for young couples and crazy old people, not very salable in most markets, spend the extra 10KS for flatter lot next time......I ran out of breath just counting the steps......:jester: 

Left over stones perhaps bought to "save" money????

Exposed stone ledge = cheap skate, Yes, we did use some masonry, but ran out of $ and or Taste.....Cover less wall, but start BELOW grade so it looks more authentic.

D + the plus is for using full bed materials....

Low bid, maybe a little lower then normal booty.

This is the house you "forget" to put your shingle in front of.....:blink:

The good news: it will be easy to do better next time, if you can sell this eyesore at cost.


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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

A very poor choice of cultured stone, too irregular which makes it look wavy and downright ugly. 

I've laid a lot of phoney stoney and real rock. That style of stone is one I would refuse to lay, it's just too ugly due to the irrgularites of it. And it's run up way too high on the front of the home. 

The stone is all beat up and scratched bady, and they didn't accent around the windows first and then fill in around them. Slapped up in 2 days would be my guess. Really bad, sorry.

What did ya pay for that ?


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

OP got what they paid for - guarantee that.


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

What part of the country is this in? Looks like it was just thrown in, they semi look like they knew what they knew what they were doing..ie no boxes or long stacked joints but it looks like very little care for what it looks like just get it done.


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

kirkdc said:


> A very poor choice of cultured stone, too irregular which makes it look wavy and downright ugly.
> 
> I've laid a lot of phoney stoney and real rock.


Thats not cultured stone.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I'd say it went up to high also. Other than that, looks OK to me.


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## GTXBuilder (Nov 28, 2017)

Thank you all for your honest feedback. I just received a written commitment from the sub-contractor to remove all of the stone from this home and replace it. More details and updates follow.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

GTXBuilder said:


> ...More details and updates follow.


No thanks.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

I actually logged on to CT to start a thread about this, and ask the pro's advice over at the DIY site, I guess I don't need to now. :laughing:


As I said over there, I think it looks terrible. The design is fine IMO, the execution is severely lacking. Just because the stone come's in "that" shape doesn't mean you should/have to lay it in "that" shape......


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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

GTXBuilder said:


> Thank you all for your honest feedback. I just received a written commitment from the sub-contractor to remove all of the stone from this home and replace it. More details and updates follow.


Good deal. It's horrid.

Is that real rock? Wth all those scratch marks all over it, it looks like the cultured stuff.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

kirkdc said:


> Good deal. It's horrid.
> 
> Is that real rock? Wth all those scratch marks all over it, it looks like the cultured stuff.


If you look close, there's angle irons over the doors & windows, 4" returns at the jambs, and lots of full stone laying on the ground and even on the scaffolding.........:whistling


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

jomama said:


> I actually logged on to CT to start a thread about this, and ask the pro's advice over at the DIY site, I guess I don't need to now. :laughing:
> 
> 
> As I said over there, I think it looks terrible. The design is fine IMO, the execution is severely lacking. Just because the stone come's in "that" shape doesn't mean you should/have to lay it in "that" shape......


why would you post on another site about a job that is not yours?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

GTXBuilder said:


> Hello,
> 
> I recently had stone work done on a new house. Please take a look and give me your honest feedback.
> 
> ...


This one section highlights the execution... if you can't get it right on the flats... :whistling

.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

SmallTownGuy said:


> why would you post on another site about a job that is not yours?


I figured the guys here that know what they're looking at would enjoy it.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Yea I am enjoying it! Looks like the Masons literally threw those stones on top of each other as fast as they could...jagged stone obviously will not be perfectly straight and square however you at least want to get them somewhat level...and I can bet almost nothing got leveled there

good thing is if that does get torn down stone is pretty easy to clean and reuse usually 


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

I've never worked with stone or subbed it out. I don't see much in my area. Anyone care to share an example of a similar material expertly executed?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Golden view said:


> I've never worked with stone or subbed it out. I don't see much in my area. Anyone care to share an example of a similar material expertly executed?


Any of Bytor's posts.


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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

jomama said:


> If you look close, there's angle irons over the doors & windows, 4" returns at the jambs, and lots of full stone laying on the ground and even on the scaffolding.........:whistling


sorry and thanks. I can't enlarge pictures on my phone.

Back to the original poster. May I ask what they charged for this work?

As for the shape of the stones ? Before even starting, I'd have went through them and tossed a lot of them out and seperated the better ones into some type of eye-appealing layout. The problem is it that it appears too many of them are oddballs which would force a guy to have irregualar grout lines to make up for uniformity. I'm no mason but I find those rocks butt-ugly and a challenge to lay. With so many nice styles of rock these days I'd have picked a better selection. And hired someone with experience. Now it's all gotta be tore off and re-done. Damm.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Golden view said:


> I've never worked with stone or subbed it out. I don't see much in my area. Anyone care to share an example of a similar material expertly executed?




Here is one I did a few years ago...isn’t my favorite but the customer loved it...this is a natural veneer stone.. kinda the same idea with it being irregular stone











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## GTXBuilder (Nov 28, 2017)

Windycity said:


> Here is one I did a few years ago...isn’t my favorite but the customer loved it...this is a natural veneer stone.. kinda the same idea with it being irregular stone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I used the same blend of irregular stone in the past, similar to the ones in my photos, but every stone was laid using a torpedo level on top to maintain a leveled horizontal and vertical line effect throughout. It was also executed by masons who knew how to lay this type of stone. It looked really good. The stone cut was also of better quality. Material, technique and skills. It all matters.

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## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

GTXBuilder said:


> I used the same blend of irregular stone in the past, similar to the ones in my photos, but every stone was laid using a torpedo level on top to maintain a leveled horizontal and vertical line effect throughout. It was also executed by masons who knew how to lay this type of stone. It looked really good. The stone cut was also of better quality. Material, technique and skills. It all matters.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


I don't know man, Every stone? Torpedo level? That makes no sense to me. The rest of your paragraph does make sense.


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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

artisanstone said:


> I don't know man, Every stone? Torpedo level? That makes no sense to me. The rest of your paragraph does make sense.


Instead of torpedo leveling, I draw level lines about every foot or so going up the wall, fireplace, etc which allowed me to eyeball up irregular rocks and stay straight. I did it on all my stonework as well. 

Those last few pics look a lot better although it's still a big jigsaw puzzle to make those stones look good. 

Just like tile work ya gotta charge more money when it comes to pattern layout, designs and stone shapes. Years ago I did a stone job where the HO's wanted a particular pattern on a 2-sided fireplace with a stone selection that turned out to be a real headache for me. I ended up making about 15 bucks an hour when it was all said and done. Lesson learned.


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## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

Uh...

My point was that if the stone is wedge shaped, not every stone will be level on top. Also, a torpedo level is a pretty poor way of checking level on a 2' long stone.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Yea besides if the customer picks an irregular shaped stone product they probably don’t want ever stone straight, square and level, Just like my picture above I tried to keep the flatter stones level and the oddball ones add some character by not being perfect 

Here is a project that I did where the stone is more square and straight...this obviously requires the stone to be level











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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

They needed a better mix of high and low rise stone...the style of pointing makes a big difference as well.

I commonly take chit stone and make it look good...


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

artisanstone said:


> I don't know man, Every stone? Torpedo level? That makes no sense to me. The rest of your paragraph does make sense.


Agree :thumbsup:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

some more...


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## B.Johnson (Sep 17, 2016)

I look at the chimney at the roof ridge with the scaffolding, ladders, and jacks and all I can think is how much work it would be just to get one stone up there. 

Your work looks great!


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

B.Johnson said:


> I look at the chimney at the roof ridge with the scaffolding, ladders, and jacks and all I can think is how much work it would be just to get one stone up there.
> 
> Your work looks great!


Does look like hard work with materials.
Most of the old stones houses round here have brick chimneys.
I took the grandkids to an old stately home round here last week which had a load of twisted stone chimneys, but I expect the owners had plenty of cash to throw at the build back then.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Ill tell you what i think when you tell me in what position of cheapest to most expensive was his bid.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Windycity said:


> Here is one I did a few years ago...isn’t my favorite but the customer loved it...this is a natural veneer stone.. kinda the same idea with it being irregular stone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats a nice look. Im on a house right now and were looking for a weathered face mix of stone.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

when you have wonky stone you have to come back to level as fast as possible while cutting the stone as little as possible. With thin stone anyways. Also use the largest side of the stone to get out of a low spot and get to level, not to create a high spot.


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## natural1 (Aug 30, 2007)

Hard to look at.
So the sub is going to re-do the whole thing? How does a job get that far along with out noticing the poor quality.

Whats up with all the small windows?


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

natural1 said:


> Hard to look at.
> So the sub is going to re-do the whole thing? How does a job get that far along with out noticing the poor quality.
> 
> Whats up with all the small windows?


bingo!


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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

SmallTownGuy said:


> bingo!


I asked twice and still haven't found out what he paid for the job.

irregular stones? no thanks..maybe only a few to mix things up but IMO they are a PITA and look crappy no matter how you position them. Cut them if ya got to. Better yet, pick out different stones.

I'd charge triple to mess around with all those irregular shaped rocks. And you can only leave so much grout space before it starts looking ugly. You end up with more mortar/grout than rock !


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## GTXBuilder (Nov 28, 2017)

kirkdc said:


> I asked twice and still haven't found out what he paid for the job.
> 
> irregular stones? no thanks..maybe only a few to mix things up but IMO they are a PITA and look crappy no matter how you position them. Cut them if ya got to. Better yet, pick out different stones.
> 
> I'd charge triple to mess around with all those irregular shaped rocks. And you can only leave so much grout space before it starts looking ugly. You end up with more mortar/grout than rock !


Not a dime to date.

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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Here is my Wild Assss Guess of what happen, 

0. Builder / owner wants 'real full bed stone'......

1. Builder contacts a Journeyman employing Stone masonry sub for Square foot prices for material and labor, get a honest answer and goes 'Holy manure'.... that cuts into gulf course time & $.

2. Contacts local 'lick and stick' illegal alien subs for lower bid/estimate, Si senor, cheap and FAST. No waste.

2.5. Builder specs use of 'scrap' rocks to save a few more $ on this Pig. Illegal aliens drive on, El Jeffee is always right. "Looks good from Zambezi".

3. Cheap design, + cheap materials + poor taste,semi competent labor - lack of style = ugliest home in the development.

4. A few hundred thousands of dollars are tied up in this scat till it is peddled to a greater fool.


Buy an old board game for the spinner, relabel the sectors with your supply chain, designer, banker, InterNet Forum posts, Mom & Dad, weather, and various subs.
When ever your work is sub par, spin the spinner to assign blame.

I'd suggest work on the "man in the Mirror" for actual improvement in Home building results longterm.


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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

haha. very well could be. 



Fouthgeneration said:


> Here is my Wild Assss Guess of what happen,
> 
> 0. Builder / owner wants 'real full bed stone'......
> 
> ...


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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

Does anyone start and finish a job (without collecting any money to even get started) ?????? HUH ??

Contract ??? HUH ???

33-33-33 ?? HUH? 40-30-30 ? 

Hell I collect 50% to start, 25 when half done and get the the last 25 when almost finished.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

kirkdc said:


> Does anyone start and finish a job (without collecting any money to even get started) ?????? HUH ??
> 
> Contract ??? HUH ???
> 
> ...




I do all the time but only with contractors that I know very well and trust them....some of them I have known over 20 years now 

Otherwise hell no


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Probably a Mexican crew, usually no money down for production work. You get what you pay for.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

I see numerous problems with the execution. ****ty material is one. You can tell just by looking at how it was laid that it was a wham, bam, thank you ma'am job.


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

kirkdc said:


> Does anyone start and finish a job (without collecting any money to even get started) ?????? HUH ??
> 
> Contract ??? HUH ???
> 
> ...


I dont take any $ up front, never. If Im supplying materials they pay the material bill before the fifth so I can pay by the tenth.

I get paid when Im loading my truck, if Im bricking a house, I sometimes get a draw half way.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

A hundred batches, each cleaned out in a different spot in the yard ????????

Tumble mixers have been banned for quality mortar ~40 + years....

Original Poster Please respond with more facts please, Some one is always the hind most, we just hope it is some one else that is on the bottom of the quality/value ladder.....

You could pray the owner stuccoes over the fine stonework.....


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

This thread is utter failure on both the builders end and masons end. I don’t go 2 days without verbal acceptance from person writing the check. To think weeks worth of stonework was done without a payment plan or visual acceptance is monkey plus football. I find it hard to believe a super or the builder didn’t swing by to see a section done, piss off with your taking all the stonework down....


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## Bull Trout (Dec 6, 2016)

JBM said:


> This thread is utter failure on both the builders end and masons end. I don’t go 2 days without verbal acceptance from person writing the check. To think weeks worth of stonework was done without a payment plan or visual acceptance is monkey plus football. I find it hard to believe a super or the builder didn’t swing by to see a section done, piss off with your taking all the stonework down....


It kinda feels like the OP tried to "save" money by doing it himself instead of paying the exorbitant fees the sub contractor were asking for, and came here for affirmation of his good job


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

He got what he paid for no doubt about that. 

I’m haggling right now with a tight wad and I told him I can do it for much less if he doesn’t mind what it looks like...we laughed we cried


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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

IMO, doing work with no money collected up front may be ok with trusted contractors but its still a risky way to do work. 

I once subbed for a pretty regular contractor, never took anything upfront as he always paid for materials and I got paid when done. Great guy. He was spot on for a few years and I did about 10 decent sized jobs for him. 

Then I did one job and he avoided me once I was done. I did some hunting and found out he went belly-up broke. Once I pinned him (I waited at his house until he pulled in his driveway) he told me was broke and filing for Chapter 11. He had no money to pay me. I was out $8k. All I got from him was "Sorry,man."

My policy now is 50% upfront. And I don't budge on that.


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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

Bull Trout said:


> It kinda feels like the OP tried to "save" money by doing it himself instead of paying the exorbitant fees the sub contractor were asking for, and came here for affirmation of his good job


This too crossed my mind. A bit of a fish smell.


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

I don't think we ever got an answer on what part of the country this is from, this type of work is not uncommon around here where Jose and Co. are doing it for $5 a foot.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Kniggit said:


> I don't think we ever got an answer on what part of the country this is from, this type of work is not uncommon around here where Jose and Co. are doing it for $5 a foot.


5 a foot just for the tar paper lol


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

kirkdc said:


> IMO, doing work with no money collected up front may be ok with trusted contractors but its still a risky way to do work.
> 
> I once subbed for a pretty regular contractor, never took anything upfront as he always paid for materials and I got paid when done. Great guy. He was spot on for a few years and I did about 10 decent sized jobs for him.
> 
> ...



I've been burned for a similar amount in the past as well, on an addition/remodel. BUT, on a new construction, such as this thread, I have no idea how you're getting money down when there is a construction loan and, presumably, a title company involved. The job of any title company is to ensure the HO and bank don't get burned, why would they offer 50% down just for showing them a paper contract? No offense, but I've never been burned as badly/often by a homeowner as I have been from another contractor/builder. 

I guess if you're doing a bathroom remodel for "Tommy & Sue Homeowner" in booming times you'll get away with collecting 50% for doing virtually zilch, but when you're doing larger residential/commercial/industrial/government type work, you can expect to get absolutely nothing down until you actually perform some kind of work. And even then, don't expect to get it immediately upon completion....


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