# Screw Pops! I'm Screwed!!



## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

Doing a big custom addition in Utah. Hottest summer on record! I think it rained twice the entire summer. Second driest state in the nation. Just saying because I don't think humidity is a factor. Framing was a mix of LSL studs on exterior walls and 2"x6". Interior walls are 2"x4" and 2"x6". So 4 different walls with 2 exterior types and 2 interior types. 

Just sanded the first coat of primer today and the painter calls me over to a wall and I just about had a heart attack!! Screw pops everywhere. That was an interior 2"x4" non load bearing wall. Went over to another wall and same thing but that was load bearing. Went to the exterior walls and same thing. All over the entire house. Can someone clue me in on this one? 

The drywall contractor says it's not his fault over the phone and hasn't seen it yet. Meeting first thing in the morning to figure it out!!

Thanks for any insight. 

Haydin Builders.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

Screw gun was set to deep? Bowed studs?
No pops on the ceilings? If the ceilings are 5/8" it could be the screw gun depth theory.


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## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

Thanks for the response. I will be digging into some of the screws in the morn to check the depth for sure. The bowed studs is always a likely culprit but I used some of the new LSL (Laminated Strand Lumber which are man made and straight as an arrow) studs for some of the exterior walls and they have the pops as well. 

What is max depth for screws? I know visual inspection is just just just below the surface of the paper but is there a number used? Like no more than 1/16" or so?

Haydin.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Sir Mixalot said:


> Screw gun was set to deep?


My definition of pop is that the fastener sticks up out of the drywall, and I've never had that happen with screws. Nails, yes. :blink:


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## sevonty (Nov 21, 2011)

no glue?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

My definition of a screw pop is when the fastern pushes the mud which formerly filled the whole past the surface of the finished wall. Very rarely have I ever seen a fastener extend past the face of the wall..


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Are you saying the drywall was hung over the summer - and your priming it now?


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## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

Yes the symptom is the drywall mud pushing out beyond the plane of the wall surface. You can sand it down but that does not fix the problem. The Drywall sub said he swears all his sheets are glued and frankly I can not recall seeing if they did or didn't. What I do know is the owners are moving in March 1. Ohhh boy! 

I have never seen anything like this before and it is just the walls. No ceilings that I have found yet. 

I'm thinking I have to have them add more screws in a hurry and hope that fixes the problem???

Haydin.


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## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Are you saying the drywall was hung over the summer - and your priming it now?


No it was hung last week of November. Mudded and taped first weeks of December. Primed a month ago and then had some delays until final paint was supposed to go today.

Framing was august to september. Hot and 15% humidity in the air. Just stated since I don't think humidity or moisture was a factor.

Haydin.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

Tinstaafl said:


> My definition of pop is that the fastener sticks up out of the drywall, and I've never had that happen with screws. Nails, yes. :blink:


http://www.usg.com/documents/construction-handbook/chapter12.pdf

Fastener imperfections A common defect, which takes on many
forms, including darkening, localized cracking, *depressions over fastenerheads and/or pops *or protrusions of fasteners or the surface area immediately surrounding them. Usually caused by improper framing or fastener application.


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## CScalf (Dec 18, 2008)

Haydin said:


> Yes the symptom is the drywall mud pushing out beyond the plane of the wall surface. You can sand it down but that does not fix the problem. The Drywall sub said he swears all his sheets are glued and frankly I can not recall seeing if they did or didn't. *What I do know is the owners are moving in March 1*. Ohhh boy!
> 
> I have never seen anything like this before and it is just the walls. No ceilings that I have found yet.
> 
> ...


tree fiddy says they dont:whistling


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

Haydin said:


> No it was hung last week of November. Mudded and taped first weeks of December. Primed a month ago and then had some delays until final paint was supposed to go today.
> 
> Framing was august to september. Hot and 15% humidity in the air. Just stated since I don't think humidity or moisture was a factor.
> 
> Haydin.


Have you considered that the lumber may have been too dry?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Sounds like the material was wet before putting up drywall then dried and caused the pops. I ain't ever used LSL so I have no idea how that takes on moister compared to standard studs. If it was glued you wouldn't have had the pops though.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

In some cases even a slightest change in room air pressure I.e caused by opening an exterior door or window can cause newly installed drywall to pull away from the material it's attached to. Like some said having uneven stud or ceiling beams, any gap between the wood and drywall, can cause a pop of drywall. of the face of the drywall. 
Also keep in mind that when lumber delivered to the job it could have a certain moisture content and that could be also the cause of nail pops from wood shrinkage.


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## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

Thanks for all the replies. I'll keep you informed on what the actuall issue really is as I find out.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

With our product I see lots of 'breaking the skin' which causes the same issue your having.

My guess is the screws are set too deep...as I am currently seeing this on one of my projects right now, be prepared to re-tape the whole house


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

I may have a simpler answer.

Pull one of the screws the drywaller used.

If it is any longer than 1 5/8" for 5/8 board or 1 1/4" for 1/2" board, its on the "rocker".

I had this happen when installing 2" drywall screws in a small basement wall.

...and yes.

...because those were the screws I had on me, before anyone asks.


I'm betting on the lumber.

LSL are esentially OSB studs.

If it was exposed to the rain during the framing process and not allowed to acclimate, well...


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Call me crazy, but consider this. Suppose the moisture content of the wallboard is high during installation, then stabilizes at a lower moisture content.

Drywall is stored by distributors in a wide range of conditions, including OUTDOORS in some cases. It wouldn't take much movement (AKA shrinkage) to cause a "pop", or ridging of tapered seems/butts.

It's easy to blame the framer, the framing, the hangers or finishers, but only a fool would discount the actual product from fault.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

loneframer said:


> Call me crazy, but consider this. Suppose the moisture content of the wallboard is high during installation, then stabilizes at a lower moisture content.


I didn't know that drywall swelled when it got moist. I know it gets flexible...


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

loneframer said:


> Call me crazy, but consider this. Suppose the moisture content of the wallboard is high during installation, then stabilizes at a lower moisture content.
> 
> Drywall is stored by distributors in a wide range of conditions, including OUTDOORS in some cases. It wouldn't take much movement (AKA shrinkage) to cause a "pop", or ridging of tapered seems/butts.
> 
> It's easy to blame the framer, the framing, the hangers or finishers, but only a fool would discount the actual product from fault.


What about the ceilings not having that issue? :detective:


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## SixHoeBob (Jan 26, 2013)

I would pound lightly with my fist near a row of screw pops to see if the drywall was glued tight. Next I would pull a badly screw popped piece off in a closet wether it is glued or not. Look at several studs and determine how long of a glue bead is on a typical stud.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> My definition of a screw pop is when the fastern pushes the mud which formerly filled the whole past the surface of the finished wall. Very rarely have I ever seen a fastener extend past the face of the wall..


True, I misspoke--I meant what you describe. Still, I've never encountered that with screws. Having a hard time picturing how driving screws too deep would result in them pushing out like that.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

I'm now wondering if there is "screw bridging" going on here...

Hhmmm...


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

You said it was primed? Its obvious the painter caused it...


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## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

tenon0774 said:


> I'm now wondering if there is "screw bridging" going on here...
> 
> Hhmmm...


I'm new to that term. What is it?


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## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

Metro M & L said:


> You said it was primed? Its obvious the painter caused it...


There's a conspiracy going on with one of the subs that's for sure!


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## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

loneframer said:


> Call me crazy, but consider this. Suppose the moisture content of the wallboard is high during installation, then stabilizes at a lower moisture content.
> 
> Drywall is stored by distributors in a wide range of conditions, including OUTDOORS in some cases. It wouldn't take much movement (AKA shrinkage) to cause a "pop", or ridging of tapered seems/butts.
> 
> It's easy to blame the framer, the framing, the hangers or finishers, but only a fool would discount the actual product from fault.


The weird thing here is I'm in freeken Utah... we have no moisture! The house was framed in 95 degrees and baked nicely dry. I know the studs were straight since I check all the walls with a straight edge. From what I have read a stud wall 16" o.c. with a single stud out 1/4" or more will cause a situation like this. But not the length of the walls??


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Metro M & L said:


> You said it was primed? Its obvious the painter caused it...


"Yyyeessssss!!!!!"


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Haydin said:


> I'm new to that term. What is it?


Hmmm.

Let's see if I can do this without looking it up and you get exactly what I'm talking about.

...And don't take this the wrong way:

Take two pieces of 2" x 4" scrap. Put the 2 pieces one on top of the other. (FLATWAYS)

Take a 3" screw.

Get your favorite impact gun.

Without pre-drilling any holes, drive the 3" screw through the two pieces of 2" x 4".

As you're driving that screw, make note of what the 2"x4"s are doing right before you drive the screw home.

You'll notice, even if the lumber is laying flat, that when the screw starts into the second 2"x4", the lumber separates a bit...

And sometimes, even when the screw is driven flush with the 2"x4",
this gap will remain untill you drive the screw home.

The reason I brought this up is that when driving subfloor gun-nails into TJI joist, through the plywood, most nails don't set because the material used for the top "I" part of that joist is of the same material as LSL lumber that you were using for studs.

The harder the material, the more care you must take with driving the mechanical fastener.

I can give you another example of screw bridging if you would like, or if you just want me to expand upon how this might be relevant to your situation.

- Scott


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## SixHoeBob (Jan 26, 2013)

Buy a Rigid or similar Borescope for about $300 at a good plumbing supply house.
Drill a hole in the drywall near some problem screws. Insert the borescope in the wall cavity and inspect the stud-glue-drywall interface. An interior partition obviously would have drywall on both sides of the studs.


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## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

tenon0774 said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Let's see if I can do this without looking it up and you get exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...


Scott,

Thanks!! That's what I call the "feel the studs separate, back the screw out... readjust and reset". Not something a crew paid piece is going to take the time to do!!


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Haydin said:


> Scott,
> 
> Thanks!! That's what I call the "feel the studs separate, back the screw out... readjust and reset". Not something a crew paid piece is going to take the time to do!!


Bingo!!!!

Is there a section of wall you can remove to investigate?

(I guess I should have asked: how good are you at *patching* walls? )


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## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

tenon0774 said:


> Bingo!!!!
> 
> Is there a section of wall you can remove to investigate?
> 
> (I guess I should have asked: how good are you at *patching* walls? )


If push comes to shove and a point to prove has to be made there are a few little short walls that can be opened with minor consequence. As of right now I'm going to give my ulcer a break for the night and see what the drywall contractor has to say in the morning. I'll post what I find.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Haydin said:


> If push comes to shove and a point to prove has to be made there are a few little short walls that can be opened with minor consequence. As of right now I'm going to give my ulcer a break for the night and see what the drywall contractor has to say in the morning. I'll post what I find.


If you can, open a small wall before he gets there.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

tenon0774 said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Let's see if I can do this without looking it up and you get exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...


I think this is the best explanation yet


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> I think this is the best explanation yet


Thanks, Mike.


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

From Sir Mix A Lots link:

16. Nail Pops From Lumber Shrinkage
Cause: Improper application, lumber shrinkage or a combination of both. With panels held reasonably tight against framing member and proper-length nails, only severe shrinkage will generally cause nail pops. But if nailed loosely, any inward pressure on panel will push nail head through its thin covering pad of compound. Pops resulting from “nail creep” (movement of nail resulting from lumber shrinkage) occur when shrinkage of the wood framing exposes nail shank and conse-
quently loosens the panel. (See “Lumber Shrinkage” page 357.)
Remedy: Repairs usually are necessary only for pops that protrude 0.005" or more from face of board (Fig. 17). Smaller protrusions may require repair if they occur in a smooth gloss surface or flat-painted surface under extreme lighting conditions. Those that appear before or during decoration should be repaired immediately. *Pops that occur after one month’s heating or more are usually caused by wood shrinkage and should not be repaired until near end of heating season.* An often effective procedure for resetting a popped nail is to place a 4" broad knife over the nail and hit with hammer to seat flush with surface. A more permanent method is to drive proper nail or type W screw about 1-1/2" from popped nail while applying sufficient pressure adjacent to nail head to bring panel in firm contact with framing. Strike popped nail lightly to seat it below surface of board. Remove loose compound, apply finish coats of compound and paint.
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If the rock was properly installed, my guess is that the problem is more likely caused by lumber swelling, not shrinkage. The OP mentioned how dry the lumber was during construction. Now, add in a "sealed" environment (especially if spray foamed) and buckets upon buckets of moisture laden mud and paint trapped in the house behind closed doors (I'm assuming there is little ventilation since we're in the middle of winter?). I'm at a loss with the LSL walls however, they are remarkably stable. I'm curious to find out what's really going on.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

tenon0774 said:


> Thanks, Mike.


Ur welcome


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

proper definition of a "screw pop"...
borescopes...
exploratory surgery...
encyclopedic references...
the drywaller did it...
the painter did it...

Lions and Tigers and Bears Oh My!

It's an early winter build-out. Chit happens, put in some O/T, fix the pops and move on - make the close date.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> True, I misspoke--I meant what you describe. Still, I've never encountered that with screws. Having a hard time picturing how driving screws too deep would result in them pushing out like that.


Well when the fastener is tightened to the point the haed breaks the paper the drywall has a tendancy to seperate from the stud because the fastener looses all holding power. Then the drywaller fills the hole up completely. Then sparkly or the hos snot bag comes by and pushes on the wall and the board is pushed tight to the stud forcing the mud out of the hole by the fastener head.

It could also happen with moisture exhaustion as the board shrinks..


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## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

I'm breathing a sigh of relief right now! I dug out some of the screws this morning and it was clear as day that they were sunk well beyond the surface paper. The owner of the company was a bit of a dick trying to claim zero responsibility but one of his higher ups came up looked at it and " yup that's a popped screw alright!". He went thought the house and added a couple hundred screws to solve the problem. A little hot mud on top and my painters are back in action. If the problem persists he will be available for the first year to fix anything else. 

Thank you everyone for your replies! I have learned a ton about drywall install that I never knew could be an issue since this is my first. 

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Haydin.


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

:clap: :thumbup: :clap: glad to hear its resolved, thanks for sharing!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Haydin said:


> I'm breathing a sigh of relief right now! I dug out some of the screws this morning and it was clear as day that they were sunk well beyond the surface paper. The owner of the company was a bit of a dick trying to claim zero responsibility but one of his higher ups came up looked at it and " yup that's a popped screw alright!". He went thought the house and added a couple hundred screws to solve the problem. A little hot mud on top and my painters are back in action. If the problem persists he will be available for the first year to fix anything else.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your replies! I have learned a ton about drywall install that I never knew could be an issue since this is my first.
> 
> ...


The owner had a higher up? At least they man'd up.


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## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> The owner had a higher up? At least they man'd up.


That came out totally wrong!! 

Higher up than the hang crew foreman maybe? 

Anyway it's done and I'm gonna go take a nap! That stress nearly killed me! :blink:

Haydin.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Sir Mixalot said:


> What about the ceilings not having that issue? :detective:


The ceiling has gravity on its side. Jump up there and give a push up around the screw.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Haydin said:


> That came out totally wrong!!
> 
> Higher up than the hang crew foreman maybe?
> 
> ...


Excellent!

Glad this story has a happy ending. :thumbup:

So I over analyzed the problem?

...not the first time. :whistling


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## r4r&r (Feb 22, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> The owner had a higher up? At least they man'd up.


A. K. A. The wife.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Haydin said:


> The weird thing here is I'm in freeken Utah... we have no moisture! The house was framed in 95 degrees and baked nicely dry. I know the studs were straight since I check all the walls with a straight edge. From what I have read a stud wall 16" o.c. with a single stud out 1/4" or more will cause a situation like this. But not the length of the walls??


Zero humidity in the field is reason for shrinkage. Where were the sheets manufactured? What was the moisture content of the gypsum? What was the manufacture date and how does it relate to date of installation?

I've seen sheets that were so damp that you could push a nail through it with your hand and so dry that the edges ***** like china. 

When I built my house in 1999, the drywall was on site less than 48 hours after the time stamp on the sheet.They were running around the clock and putting out less than perfect product to keep up with demand. That's the first time I ever saw blisters form on the face paper when the primer was applied to the sheet. That was a result of the paper expanding where there were small air pockets in the gypsum.

I realize you had a case of over driven screws, but I'd not discount the possibility that the moisture in the product played a role.


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## pibe (Jan 21, 2013)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> *Pops that occur after one month’s heating or more are usually caused by wood shrinkage and should not be repaired until near end of heating season.* .


I cant imagine how it can be anything other than this. The screws popping and being below the surface paper could just be due to the shrinkage.

I just cannot believe that the house sat for months and months without anyone noticing that 70% of the screws were in too deep. The taper wouldve noticed it the second they walked into the house. If all those screws were in too deep you would have seen pops the second anyone put any kind of pressure on that wall. 

Maybe i am just trying to be a bit optimistic and refuse to believe that a semi competent crew can improperly screw off an entire house. Along with no one noticing anything for 3 whole months.


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## VanGoghFinish (Aug 1, 2011)

Definitely not the rockers fault. Had this happen to me on couple of jobs and on all occasions the humidity was thru the roof! The problem the glue wasn't fully curred when tape was being done. Then once the glue finally dries it sucks the rock against the stud slightly and pushes out the head of the screws and the sparkle on top of it. This is not a screw pop at all. I garrente that the rock is tight as well as the mud on top of the screws that you are seeing. I feel for you I too had a heart attack when I first ran across this problem on one of my jobs.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

VanGoghFinish said:


> Definitely not the rockers fault. Had this happen to me on couple of jobs and on all occasions the humidity was thru the roof! The problem the glue wasn't fully curred when tape was being done. Then once the glue finally dries it sucks the rock against the stud slightly and pushes out the head of the screws and the sparkle on top of it. This is not a screw pop at all. I garrente that the rock is tight as well as the mud on top of the screws that you are seeing. I feel for you I too had a heart attack when I first ran across this problem on one of my jobs.


Exactly, and about time too.


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## r4r&r (Feb 22, 2012)

VanGoghFinish said:


> Definitely not the rockers fault. Had this happen to me on couple of jobs and on all occasions the humidity was thru the roof! The problem the glue wasn't fully curred when tape was being done. Then once the glue finally dries it sucks the rock against the stud slightly and pushes out the head of the screws and the sparkle on top of it. This is not a screw pop at all. I garrente that the rock is tight as well as the mud on top of the screws that you are seeing. I feel for you I too had a heart attack when I first ran across this problem on one of my jobs.


Well the real problem is the fairies using sparkle on top of the screws. :laughing:


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## VanGoghFinish (Aug 1, 2011)

r4r&r said:


> Well the real problem is the fairies using sparkle on top of the screws. :laughing:


????


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## r4r&r (Feb 22, 2012)

VanGoghFinish said:


> Then once the glue finally dries it sucks the rock against the stud slightly and pushes out the head of the screws and the SPARKLE on top of it.


Typo, jacking with ya.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I'd also look at moisture sources. They didn't happen to blow the slightly wet type of insulation into the wall cavities, did they? Run salamanders? Wall and ceiling difference is a puzzle, and probably key.


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## Haydin (Jul 1, 2008)

hdavis said:


> I'd also look at moisture sources. They didn't happen to blow the slightly wet type of insulation into the wall cavities, did they? Run salamanders? Wall and ceiling difference is a puzzle, and probably key.


The exterior walls have the netted and blown fiberglass and sure there could have probably been some moisture there. But interior walls are a combo of fiberglass and rockwool batts and none at all so that makes little sense to me. The heating is radiant heat that we had on for several weeks prior to hanging the gyp. Other than what the site condition was in there were no additional source of moisture. The thermostats have been maintained at 65 degrees.


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## IanB (Apr 6, 2013)

I wonder if a glue and screw would have the same outcome?? Maybe the lumber sat out in the rain before installed and had really warped out when dried ?? that's interesting ive never come across something like that happening on that scale.


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## Part Time Taper (Sep 2, 2012)

IanB said:


> I wonder if a glue and screw would have the same outcome?? Maybe the lumber sat out in the rain before installed and had really warped out when dried ?? that's interesting ive never come across something like that happening on that scale.


There would have to seriously be something wrong with either the fasteners, the way they were put in or like what IanB said the studs. 

Let us know what the investigation shows?


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