# Contractor in distress



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I just took the kids to the dead sea scrolls exhibit at the Cincinnati Museum. It was pretty amazing. Very well displayed too.


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## cabinetsnj (Jun 10, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Yeah you got sucked right in there. I have not taken on large jobs like that but the same thing happens with small jobs I bid. I have learned my lesson that it's easier to sit at home and earn nothing than it is to work your ass off an earn nothing. When I get them responses from my bids I just reply with it is what it is. Either they want a good quality job or they don't. Your customer sounded like he wanted quality but didn't want to pay for it. You gave him what he wanted though.


Don't let other people get the better of you just so they can make money.


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## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

EthanB said:


> I hope this is the last time I have to address this. You are wrong. It's offensive as hell. It's not complimentary. It's ethnic prejudice. Put it up there on your list of things not to ever say like the "n word". It doesn't imply the Jews are fiscally responsible and thrifty. It implies that they are greedy, stingy, and miserly, in short that they are totally fixated on money above all else.
> 
> In the Middle Ages, Christians were forbidden to lend money while charging interest(usury) while Jews were restricted by the law to occupations like usury. The Church also calls usury a sin. So Jews were forced into usury by the law, labelled as sinners by the Church, people borrowed money and, fairly often, when things got tight they would kill the Jews for being sinners. Oh, and then who did they owe money to?
> 
> That's why it's offensive.


I definately see your point and as such I will delete my previous post in order to redirect the conversation. It is unfortunate when people get singled out and stereotyped based on misinformation and misinterpretation, but I guess that is life..........and unfair. I have always been the guy who got along with everyone simply cuz I don't really get stereotypes, but I should not assume that they don't exist just because of my own perspective. Thanks for the clarification and the historical context.


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Redirected.

Don't be too hard on yourself. About the job, not the deleted word (bad ...very)

Back to the original issue.

A lot of guys will tell you that you made a huge mistake and never let it happen again.

First, I dont' know about masonry, but estimating software is useless to me. Your HARD # with eventualities (like weather) added in, would have been perfect. You know your business, your region, your guys, your competition, Some guy in an office outside of Atlanta doesn't.

Second, you paid dues by humping brick for X number of years and taking less than you "deserved" while getting an education. This is the SAME as what you've just done.

As long as you can still eat and pay the bills, you'll be okay.

One constant among successful men is.......failure. Failure and the willingness to take risk, allowing the possibility of imperfect outcomes, and mustering the resolve to learn from your mistakes and refine your tactics.

Anyone who tells you that they never went through this is a liar or a disciple of mediocrity. Shoot for the stars, on scope and on quality. Accept nothing less, and accept the realities of the learning curve.

You just learned how to identify a shortfall, get your crew through it, and finish strong....which you will. If I had a nickel for every job I finished alone, at 2am, not getting paid....................oh wait, I now have a lot of luxuries built on those moments. 

This too shall pass, and you will be better for it. It is "their" job to try to get us as cheap as possible. It is our job to be so good and sought after that we only pick the ripest fruit. You gotta pick some duds on the way to the top of the tree. 

Like you said, you needed this job. Don't forget that need. Try to distance yourself from it, but don't ever deny that it was real. Work towards the tradesman's best tool.....the ability to say, "No thank you, we have other/better options."


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

How to delete a post?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

EthanB said:


> Jew isn't a nation either, bub.
> 
> OP just click the "edit" button on that first post and swap the word "*****" for something that isn't totally offensive to everyone in my family and then you'll have my empathy and sympathy. Until then, ess drek.


Jew isn't even a race


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Like you said, you needed this job. Don't forget that need. Try to distance yourself from it, but don't ever deny that it was real.


:thumbsup:


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

One of the most effective money making things i have done is studied negotiation tactics. There are lists on the internet about all the different techniques. the op may have done his bid but he wasnt prepared to negotiate. Kind of like a boxer who did lots of running to train for the fight but never learned how to throw a punch. doing the work is the easy part; making the deal is the hard part.


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I just took the kids to the dead sea scrolls exhibit at the Cincinnati Museum. It was pretty amazing. Very well displayed too.


Some gal at the mall gave me a sample of some skin lotion, it had something to do with the dead sea. She displayed it very well, too.


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## Dmitry (Aug 23, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Jew isn't even a race


Wow, really? I am Russian and its not a race either.


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## Dmitry (Aug 23, 2010)

I sure hoped it was at least a race, but its not.


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

When I was a framing contractor, I made a point to make sure all the custom home builders knew me. I was never the cheapest but when a builder had a more complicated house I usually was called. You need to have way more bids out there than work you can do. 
I find it different these last 10 years with subs. I'll be at a 7 11 for example with a lettered truck and nobody even approaches me for work or to even pass a card. I used to drop company pens at the lumberyards, give my card to any and all trades, fish, drink and golf with some builders and trades. Its still about networking and keeping your cool when a job doesnt come to you.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

I di the exact same thing in 1995. I took on a huge job with extremely tight margins and it eventually forced me into bankruptcy.
As far as prices go, it's quite possible the GC had much lower prices.
Last year I bid a very large fence job, a sound barrier with 14 brick pillars. THe wood in the job was specified to be 2" think T&G cedar. In the Toronto area there are only 3 suppliers of this size, and all three charge the same.I did my quantities and came up with an amount for the wood. The main supplier, when I called, already had done the quanties and told me it would be $53,400 for the job. Adding in the pillars, the stain, some chain link work, labour, and profit, I submitted a bid of $208,000. I thought it to be about $15,000 too high, mainly becuase of the price of the pillars, but my then partner insisted on using a particular mason (I later found someone willing to do the pillars for $1500 each less). This would have dropped my price by $21,000 which would have put me right in the ballpark.
Anyway. just as I thought, 4 of the 7 bids were around $190,000, so I was correct in my thinking.
There was another bid around $150,000, so he probably forgot to add something in. The winning bid? $98,000.00. With a $53000 material cost excluding the pillars! Where was his brain that day?
He got the job and went bankrupt 1/2 way through!

I had another wood fence job: replacing 1500 feet of wood fence in a condo. I did all my numbers very carefully, and figured my profit. I got the job at $60,000, plus or minus. I did the job, and it went well. I made $18,000 clear profit. After completion, I was shown the other bids. One was $10.00 (TEN DOLLARS) less than me, and 2 were $30,000 MORE!.

The point is that you never know where other bids will go. Higher, lower, you just put your most competive number in and hope for the best.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Two quick points:

1) Anyone can call me anything they want, no big deal. What they say doesn't say anything about me, but says loads about them.

2) Business is exactly like going to Las Vegas. You're gambling on every job. If you're going to go under if the one contract you signed doesn't pan out, you just put all your money on red, and you're hoping it will pay off. Even if you're good and lucky and the odds are in your favor, you can go broke making too big of a bet.

I know a privately held company (not construction) that went broke because it signed a big deal for fixed cost supply - shipping was included in the price. Big volume, so thin margins (had to price at Chinese supplier price - lowest cost) Gas prices went way up, and the company went under.

Things do go wrong if you're betting everything is going to go right, you won't last.


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## Brickprick (Jan 23, 2013)

Loads of fantastic encouragement. Thanks guys i needed to hear some good kind words. 

I think ive finaly got my head around this thing. I got my emotions in check. Most importantly i have a plan to finish this thing strong while maintaining my reationship with the GC. 

I have accepted that im going to stand by my bid. Im still thinking im going to have a sit down with the GC just to at the very least try to make them understand why im struggling. I think they will see where im coming from. However i dont hold to much hope that they are going to negotiate with me as to the bottom line. Im going into the meeting expecting that they will not budge and if they do fantastic. Anything i can get will help. 

I will say this though. I have complete and total faith in my new estimating software. I was in the office this morning crunching numbers and if i had stood my ground on bid proposal #1 id be right on track with a nice cushion to deal with the unseen problems that come up and would have payroll covered. 

Man what a kick in the seeds. I should have known better than to drop my pants and its all my fault. Fortunately i can still finish the project at the current contract price and stay afloat but i will be laying all the brick myself with one laborer which is fine by me. My bricklayers wanted some time off for the winter months anyways and all where happy to be laid off. 

Since the layoff me and my labor foreman have been the only 2 working and have been killing it. Its actualy pleasant not having to babysit a crew all day and we are getting more brick laid in a day than 2 bricklayers where before layoff. So if we can get some cooperation now from the weather we should be done before spring. 

Again thankyou all for your input. You have no idea how much it has helped me cope getting some straight talk from people i dont even know yet.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Brickprick said:


> I think ive finaly got my head around this thing. I got my emotions in check. Most importantly i have a plan to finish this thing strong while maintaining my reationship with the GC.


Sometimes you have to put your head down and push through it - good luck, and push hard!


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## Kaiser (Jan 22, 2008)

I read almost all of your post and responses skipping over the Jew racing the Russian or what ever that was. You said in the beginning that you had bid jobs that size before but I am assuming you hadn't got one.

One of the things I think is missing here is larger jobs are going to be won with a lower SF price than smaller ones. You originally bid this at the pricing you would have for the smaller work you normally preform. Contractors that preform these larger projects have different means and methods, better material cost due to larger quantities. Did you figure this into your bid?

I doubt the GC your family has been working with for three generations was low balling you. They want to work with you and were giving you a chance to meet their budget. Next time ask this old family contact where they need you to be and negotiate something that works for you. *By the way fellas this is not price shopping.* 

You're their Mason of choice and believe me they will pay more to work with someone they know and trust.

Go to the GC and explain your situation and let them suggest how they can make it work. There is not enough money in the retainage to send you packing and find another to complete it.


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## Tyrone (Dec 30, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> This was an interesting thread until it got all *****.


Here is my take on the OP's troubles.

He had the common sense to say his 4 helpers were doing sloppy work instead of saying they were ______rigging the ___ing brick. 

So the the question is, did he earn a high enough quality score for the omission of the n phrase to then be allowed a pass for the Jewish slur.

Its not always about what you say. Sometimes its about what you thoughtfully excluded.


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## CScalf (Dec 18, 2008)

OP, you spelled your state wrong, and you wonder why you let yourself get screwed?:tt2:


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Kaiser said:


> I read almost all of your post and responses skipping over the Jew racing the Russian or what ever that was. You said in the beginning that you had bid jobs that size before but I am assuming you hadn't got one.
> 
> One of the things I think is missing here is larger jobs are going to be won with a lower SF price than smaller ones. You originally bid this at the pricing you would have for the smaller work you normally preform. Contractors that preform these larger projects have different means and methods, better material cost due to larger quantities. Did you figure this into your bid?
> 
> ...


Possibly the most sage advice I've read on the topic.:thumbup:


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## GCTony (Oct 26, 2012)

I just love the "it's the GC's Fault" posts. 

1) NEVER trust estimating software. Material + labor + overhead + profit = bid amount.

2) Did the GC hold a gun to your head forcing you to do the job
3) Even if you were the low bid, I probaly wouldn't use you. First time it's $250K then you take off $50k. Looks like you were trying to screw the GC.
4) Forget about loyal relationship in commercial. It's all about the bottom line.

Sorry it has to happen to anyone. Look on the bright side; it could have been a large project where the masonry numbers are well over 1M with $1000 a day LD's.


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## essrmo (May 2, 2007)

Brickprick said:


> Thankyou all for your input. Yes i have took a long hard look in the mirror. Yes it was me who allowed this to happen. You are right. So i have my work cut out for me. Ive learned a very painful lesson. I know there is not much i can do to rectify my own error besides put my head down and plow. That i can deal with.
> 
> I did have a clause in the contract that stated that "No winter conditions are included in this estimate" It was clearly stated. Yes i have learned a HUGE lesson. Thankyou all for your insight.
> 
> Ive dodged this bullet for along time and now it has hit me. I guess we all have to take a hit to learn this dirty game.


don't beat yourself up too bad. we all bid low sometimes. that's what it takes to stay in business during hard times. hopefully things will get better and you can make it up then. cheers Bp.


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## Tyrone (Dec 30, 2012)

Tyrone said:


> Here is my take on the OP's troubles.
> 
> He had the common sense to say his 4 helpers were doing sloppy work instead of saying they were ______rigging the ___ing brick.
> 
> ...


Really? Nobody? Nothing? I guess I will need to dig deeper. Try harder. Its OK I'm wounded not dead. I will be back stronger and better.


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## schaefercs (Jul 10, 2008)

Tyrone said:


> Really? Nobody? Nothing? I guess I will need to dig deeper. Try harder. Its OK I'm wounded not dead. I will be back stronger and better.


Really dude? Now it sounds like you're just looking for attention.


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

Tyrone said:


> Really? Nobody? Nothing? I guess I will need to dig deeper. Try harder. Its OK I'm wounded not dead. I will be back stronger and better.


Don't try just do it.


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

Not that it hasnt already been said in this thread..but this one is a classic school of hard knocks.

You are either selling or being sold, he smelled a younger guy who was hungry for a deal..you dropped to his bluff. He used your hunger as leverage. Even if he wasnt and there were other bids on the table for lower amounts. What does it say when you drop price? By 50k. 

You let someone have an inch, they will take a mile. You got played for a deal, and in business that is on you. He played the field better.

One thing i have learned is to hold my price, even when i really need a deal i will take it away from a client and act willing to walk. It holds my value, and you will have MORE business if you learn to do this the right way. Or you will be hustled for nickles and dimes your entire career.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

I am sorry I feel that this thread got carried away.
OP i have been there its called school of hard knocks.

As for jew slur and etc, I would like to state, that its somewhat hypocritical.

Down in P&R section there is plenty of racial slurs going around about blacks,mexicans,portugese,apachi junction,mamas spaghetti and etc.
Get over it,I guess its called freedom of speech.

This comes from a man with ton of jewish friends.

Now I am by no means defending the OP over the statement he made but...

As for whether he should have excluded saying that, I do agree, he should have probably restrained himself from saying it, but i am simply pointing out that he has rights to say whatever he wishes unless its prohibited by forum rules.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

Maybe I was confused by the first post, but this was a $189K that took 9 employees 5 months to reach about 80-90% complete? And for that 189K you supplied the materials?? And that includes 7% sales tax??? And this is in Illinois, with a relatively high cost of living? 

If all that's true, I can see why you're hurting. I'd have a hard time making a profit from that job with a crew of 5, if it took 5 months to complete...........


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## artiospainting (Mar 16, 2011)

Thanks for the blog.. At a time when a lot of people are talking about tightening their belt. Maybe they will think about it .Ive bean lowering my price a little every bid. still loosing bid. I'm starting to think I need to clean my self up to make a bid. Instead of running to each bid like I'm busy.Two years ago I got six calls a day. Last year 3 calls a week Still a nuff work. lost a lot of bids thought. old customers kept me bessy. Thank every one for the job.Thought Id eat free at red cross and put my money in gas. ended up giving them $80 went home and ate. Lot of people broke.


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## CarrPainting (Jun 29, 2010)

When people ask me to lower my prices, I look it over and add 10%.


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## Brickprick (Jan 23, 2013)

Man some of you need to grow up lol. Ive never seen such a bunch of slack jawed powder puffs in all of my forum reads. Its funny how many people have so much trash to talk yet have never grown a nut sack to go big. Just stay in your momma's basement and leave the mans work to the men:thumbsup:

For those of you who are cool peeps. I have had a sit down with GC which he did show me my next lowest bidder which i stopped him right there and showed him my bid #2 which was calculated using my old methods NOT software based. I was exactly $350.00 lower than the next bidder. Now Im no rocket scientist but dont almost all projects come in just about the same giver or take a few thousand from bidder to bidder. :whistling

So as i said before i knew i was in the ballpark. "As i looked at him with eyes of dis-belief that my bid was still high" anybody recall that who actually reads? :clap: 

Well as it turns out i cought the mistake and it was his. He confused my bid price with another he'd recieved that day. It was a genuine moment when he realised himself what had happened. His jaw dropped. Now we have some leveragae for negotiations. He acknowledged that we are due 10,000.00 plus retainage owed. Man im so stoked that we are going to survive this. I cant say im mad it happened though. I had my own faults so did GC and we came to a compromise that works for us both. 

So to all you hater pussies go **** yourself. Grow a set of nuts and get it.. Thanks to all you humble souls who have helped me.


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## AndyWRS (Sep 12, 2010)

It is a good thing you kept your emotions in check and it sounds like you got some leverage now. You handled it in a professional manner, a lot of folks may not have and the GC would have told them to pound sand.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Go get it, and good luck to you!


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## essrmo (May 2, 2007)

Brickprick said:


> Man some of you need to grow up lol. Ive never seen such a bunch of slack jawed powder puffs in all of my forum reads. Its funny how many people have so much trash to talk yet have never grown a nut sack to go big. Just stay in your momma's basement and leave the mans work to the men:thumbsup:
> 
> For those of you who are cool peeps. I have had a sit down with GC which he did show me my next lowest bidder which i stopped him right there and showed him my bid #2 which was calculated using my old methods NOT software based. I was exactly $350.00 lower than the next bidder. Now Im no rocket scientist but dont almost all projects come in just about the same giver or take a few thousand from bidder to bidder. :whistling
> 
> ...


a few years ago I would always go the extra mile and throw in a few freebees. lately, bend back the bent and used duplex nails, whatever to save a few $.


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## caddys_dad (Feb 20, 2013)

Brickprick said:


> Loads of fantastic encouragement. Thanks guys i needed to hear some good kind words.
> 
> I think ive finaly got my head around this thing. I got my emotions in check. Most importantly i have a plan to finish this thing strong while maintaining my reationship with the GC.
> 
> ...


You said that you didn't include winter conditions IN YOUR CONTRACT. Is that actually in your contract or was it just in your proposal? Because if it is in your contract and they agreed to it then you are due compensation. If they attached your proposal to the contract and there is conflicting language then you are probably hosed but if there is NOT conflicting language then you have a right to compensation. And could lien the job for the difference. Question at this point is do you want to do business with them again? One little known fact is that if your contract with the GC specifically ties you to their contract you have a right to get a copy of that contract.


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