# natural stone thin veneer vs cultured stone



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

For those of you guys who have installed both the "real" thing and manufactured, what if any time difference have you found. 

I have to give a price to some customers who want thin veneer on their foundation. They aren't set on a product yet but they do know what style of stone they want. I want to give them a natural stone price and a cultured stone price but I've only installed the fake stuff. Does the natural stone take much longer to install or is it on par?


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> For those of you guys who have installed both the "real" thing and manufactured, what if any time difference have you found.
> 
> I have to give a price to some customers who want thin veneer on their foundation. They aren't set on a product yet but they do know what style of stone they want. I want to give them a natural stone price and a cultured stone price but I've only installed the fake stuff. Does the natural stone take much longer to install or is it on par?


I have limited experience with both, so take it with a grain of salt...but, I saw little difference other than the natural is a little heavier and prices were the same.

Besides the fact it wasn't made of concrete, I also liked that I could chisel or chip edges of thin stone veneer to tighten up the fits, whereas you have to live with what you have with manufactured...because you end up exposing aggregate.


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## artisanstone (Nov 27, 2007)

It's slower. How much slower would depend on the pattern/style. The worst comparison would be the infamous "drystack style". In this case the Cultured has the huge advantage of being modular, while the NTV requires much chipping, etc. per piece.

The more favorable comparison would be a random polygonal pattern, with a mortar joint. The natural stone may actually be faster in this case.

I would say, for a ballpark, figure about a 30% decrease in production.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

the style they have in mind is square(ish) random rubble with varying sized joints, anywhere from 1/4"-3/4". I've already signed for the fireplace which will be done in the same style. Off the top of my head I had a 25% price increase in mind.

Can you use a chisel on the thin stuff? I've worked with thin stones before as flagstone so i guess it's about the same...mostly grinder with a chisel to finish


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I have used a carbide hand chisel like this...











Or just use a mason hammer with the chisel end.:thumbsup:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

When i do thin stuff i try to find 2 sides that "fit" and trim the rest if I need to. I rock almost every edge that I can. I trim off the stuff that is paper thin so that takes time. all of that takes more time.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I prefer adhered real stone hands down. It can be worked, so you spend less time putting the puzzle together, even if you end up cutting half the stones. I have a tiny fireplace to do on Friday, it would be impossible with faux stone because I will literally have to cut every piece. Plus it is cheaper around here because the stone is local.


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## Mooman (Aug 6, 2012)

I've done tons of each and in various styles and in my opinion, its all relative. While its true, the natural stone is easier worked(but only because you can work it harder). You can do the same thing with the cultured(cut to fit), but I back cut it slightly and grind away to a scribed line, and maybe nip at it a little with the hammer. This allows the fitment without exposing the aggregate. 

Heres a shot of the Natural thin...


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

That looks pretty tight.

A close up shot would help us see it better.

What type of stone is that?


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## Mooman (Aug 6, 2012)

The owner picked it out and had it delivered. I just showed up and installed it. I'ts granite....not sure what type exactly.


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

i think the only difference in time is the amount of time needed to allow grout to dry before it can be struck up.
the pictures included is of an 18'x 10' fireplace with natural thin stone.this was completed in less than 2 days.no help other than home owner helping with lifting mud and stone to me.


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## Mooman (Aug 6, 2012)

Stacker, is it the picture or is does that mantle look crooked? Must be an optical illusion.


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

Mooman said:


> Stacker, is it the picture or is does that mantle look crooked? Must be an optical illusion.


optical illusion.the homeowner had a couple large cedars in his pasture and was going to take them to a mill to make his mantle.he decided to try it himself with his chainsaw.he did a great job,except that the one side of the mantle is thinner than the other making it look like it is out of level


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stonecutter posteda pic of a FP he did that used a reclaimed timber from a barn. Same deal. Top was level but the timber was 10" one end and 9" at the other (or whatever), looked out of level even though the top was good


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Hey! Whats wrong with using a chainsaw to cut a log. It matches the brickwork.


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## Mooman (Aug 6, 2012)

That is one sweet oven! I should bite the bullet and build one for myself.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> stonecutter posteda pic of a FP he did that used a reclaimed timber from a barn. Same deal. Top was level but the timber was 10" one end and 9" at the other (or whatever), looked out of level even though the top was good


I did? :confused1:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> I did? :confused1:


I think so. It was posted here. I'll try to find the post


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> I think so. It was posted here. I'll try to find the post


Please do, I have no clue which one you mean.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> Please do, I have no clue which one you mean.


Huh, maybe i was wrong and it wasn't you. I thought it was that one that you did for the older couple back in Connecticut(sp?) I'm going to keep looking


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Weird, it was this guy, I don't know why I thought it was you Stonecutter. Doesn't look like your work at all

http://www.contractortalk.com/f90/ledge-stone-fire-place-124963/


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

This one?

http://www.contractortalk.com/f48/stone-fireplace-facelift-before-after-118108/


It wasn't reclaimed...but it was the old mantle, I just painted it.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

look up, but yes that was the one I thought it was. That or the one that nhad the really big granite lintel over the FP opening (or was it a big granite mantle...I'm 2nd guessing everything I remember about your work now)


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Weird, it was this guy, I don't know why I thought it was you Stonecutter. Doesn't look like your work at all
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f90/ledge-stone-fire-place-124963/


Nope not mine.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> Nope not mine.


fer sher


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> look up, but yes that was the one I thought it was. That or the one that nhad the really big granite lintel over the FP opening (or was it a big granite mantle...I'm 2nd guessing everything I remember about your work now)


I'm starting to understand how your post count shot past mine! :laughing:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Anyway, this thread doesn't matter as much anymore..... didn't get it


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Its pretty much the same...price wise It really depends on how heavy the material you working with is and how tight they want it.

You can always make argument in regards to that and bid what you feel like.

I did couple of thin veneer jobs and only thing I can say is that if customer wants it real tight and wants it for same price as cultured stone,its not worth it. Period


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

The only other thing that was'nt mentioned is that if you get any mortar smears on the cultured stone you can't clean it with muriatic acid as you can with natural thin veneer .


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

Eaglei said:


> The only other thing that was'nt mentioned is that if you get any mortar smears on the cultured stone you can't clean it with muriatic acid as you can with natural thin veneer .


i have found that vinegar and water works well for cultured stone.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I got this job after all. I have no idea how you could make this stuff look good without buying 2 or 3x the amount (and it costs 30% more per sqft than the regular stuff) and charging at least as much per sqft or more as the real deal. The stone isn't rocked at all, and some stones are 1" thick maybe more, other are 0.5" maybe. The owners are happy though so that what counts. I'll grab a pic if I remember tomorrow.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Ive done some cultured stone that I thought for sure people wouldnt like. They always love it though. Cant figure it out. Thankfully thin stone is becoming popular, were going back the right direction anyways.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

While more expensive than the real dimensional stone, it is a bit cheaper than cultured stone, 10 or 15% cheaper. But add in delivery (quarry is 3.5 hrs away) and the savings are long gone. 

I don't mind the look of it straight on but because of the different thicknesses there is too much shadow for me. Also I can't work it with anything other than a grinder so I basically don't work it at all and just install it as I get it, but they like it so Hey


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## Nick520 (May 2, 2013)

I don't mind installing the stuff depending on the style when i install over concrete I always use thinset only and grout separately this way I know it adheres well do quite a bit of work with thin natural if it is a mosaic stone you will do we'll chipping at it if its a ledge it's more difficult


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

This install is on ICF. Diamond lath attached with screws and washers, parged, and scratched. I'm using a rich mortar with lots of bonding agent. I'm also doing another job, a fireplace with arriscraft cut thin over cement board and I'm using thinset for that


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## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

This is the natural right? What I do to trim natural stone veneer is score the back of the stone with the grinder, then break it off. Cant see the saw mark that way.
Dave


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

dbrons said:


> This is the natural right? What I do to trim natural stone veneer is score the back of the stone with the grinder, then break it off. Cant see the saw mark that way.
> Dave


that's what I've been doing too. But it cuts slow and i much prefer using a hammer and chisel. i find it quicker and easier. Cutting to length isn't the main issue I have. It's that the stone isn't rocked at all and more than 1/2 the stones are concave rather than convex making a lot of shadows. Oh well, it's not on my house


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Forgot I said i would post up pics until I was looking through photobucket

Natural thin sandstone. 

I originally wasn't supposed to do this job and the owner was acting as contractor and ordered the material. He only measure 2 of 3 sides so he was almost 1/3 short on materials. Still not sure when they are coming in



Like i said, not a huge fan of all the shadow, but some stones are barely 3/8" thick and others are 1 1/2"


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

And this is the fireplace made of thin cut Arriscraft. This actually took a lot longer to do per sqft because it was inside and since all the cuts needed to be square and straight and joints needed to be consistent they were all done with a grinder outside. Add in the fact that there was very little area that didn't need a cut (the cabinets were NOT installed when i gave the original quote so that changed things quite a bit including the price)



I did more than 2x as many sqft in a day doing the full bed stuff exterior as i did doing the interior. And people think thinstone is cheaper??? Not for me it isn't


Plus my corners on the full bed stuff is a lot nicer (in my opinion) than the corners the factory made for us with the thin stuff


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## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

Nice work. I see you get the TV over the fireplace too :whistling

The sandstone looks similar to some that we get here from Arizona. 
Dave


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

dbrons said:


> Nice work. I see you get the TV over the fireplace too :whistling


Yeah haven't done a thin veneer FP without one in 5 years or so. This one was actually a huge pain. After the mantle was installed (another job that was dropped in my lap, bump goes the price again) with a very clear stipulation that it had to be near the mark they had made but it could work with the bond of the stone, they said I was too high by 1". If they decided to get the biggest TV they could get it wouldn't be able to go as low as the bracket could go. SO....of comes a bunch of stones and the price gets bumped again. 

I HATE working for homeowners sometimes. At least they were very understanding about the price increases, however, all that stuff still takes time which pushes back other projects and then those folks get upset or progress with something else which gets in the way.... ARGGGHHHH


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Nice clean work Sean.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Is that wooden mantle finished? Whats up with that big piece missing from it?

I like that style stone, looks good.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

JBM said:


> Is that wooden mantle finished? Whats up with that big piece missing from it?
> 
> I like that style stone, looks good.


Yes wooden mantle is finished. Varnished etc... It's supposed to be a rustic type mantle. the place is a cottage. It's way more noticeable in the picture than it is in real life.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Thanks SC. I hate thin stone but I'm trying to do more so that I can install in the winter and make some money indoors doing fireplaces. i haven't done any since I split with my business partner and he's kept all of our pictures so I needed some to add to the web page. This year has been good for that at least


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I love thin stone lol. I dont have to worry about my helper showing up, I dont have to worry about mixing mud all day, I dont have to worry about breaking my freakin back, I dont have to worry about the stone breaking my truck hauling it. The list goes on. The only thing I have to worry about is flashing and adhesion. Piece of cake. Now its not exactly authentic masonry and all that hero stuff, but whatever.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I hate it. I worry about adhesion constantly. I worry about flashing, i worry about hiding cuts, I worry that the mud is too wet or maybe too stiff arrrrggghhhh

. I also worry about getting fat because i like to drink beer and that thin stuff doesn't make me work at all.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Blah, I dont worry about it at all really. It will come, sponge the back of the stone, rock down the thick cuts and enjoy life. Imagine what putting up cedar siding would be like. omg would be like lifting coffee cups all day.


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## Nick520 (May 2, 2013)

Carry a rather large handful or two off the pallet and be set with stone for a bit. I like that aspect


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