# Everyone here is the best and most expensive (Period).



## illbuildit.dd (Jan 7, 2015)

I think its obvious how good someone is by the levels of knowledge, experience and problem solving skills we see. Being the best just means taking time to produce a sound product when finished and actually caring about what the client thinks of you as a person after looking at your work. Having pride. And I think its obvious who has pride around here. I know I do.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

illbuildit.dd said:


> taking time to produce a sound product when finished and actually caring about what the client thinks of you as a person after looking at your work.


Just for fun .....
I'll give a pass, being y'all are up in OK and all that :whistling J/K

That's being average .... :thumbup:


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## illbuildit.dd (Jan 7, 2015)

Average is for the birds! Makes me think, why is extraordinary a compliment? What's so good about being EXTRA ordinary?


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## Chad McDade (Oct 14, 2012)

I'm good but I am not the best - there are lots of guys out there who do work equal to or better than my work. But being the best carpenter in your area doesn't make you the best contractor in your area. I know guys in my area right now whose work is outstanding but I can guarantee they will not be in business 5 years from now - I will be. I know guys who do great work, as long as that work is in their comfort zone; if they have to think outside the box they are done - I actually enjoy solving problems. I know guys who do great work but it takes a small miracle to get them to call you back - if I don't call you back within 24 hours it means that I'm on my deathbed. 


F$#k! After reading that...maybe I am the best!


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Im 50/50 on the subject i guess. I think the ones who are obviously full of it are pretty obvious to everyone, and we aint shy about letting them know it. :laughing: They usually dont stick around long. 

Ive had quite a few discussions off the main board with many folks over the years. Several who are getting top dollar now and are booked out were plenty truthful about how bad things were and how little we were charging at that time. There is a lot of posts from most of the main stay members talking about being slow and what not in their archives. 

Like CarpenterSFO said, most of the guys on here are constantly trying to improve their skills, systems and businesses. I have learned a lot and implemented a lot because of this board, and our prices have reflected that i imagine. Same for designation courses, books, ect.... and in my particular case there is more than one guy doing all that. 

So i think its plausible that many are expensive and bad SOBs.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

illbuildit.dd said:


> Average is for the birds! Makes me think, why is extraordinary a compliment? What's so good about being EXTRA ordinary?


Works just like 'Ex'-"pert" 'something being former/past/no longer valid' and "a drop of something"

Had a shop teacher who used that along with the Ass-u-me thing.


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## bob hutson (Mar 16, 2013)

this place reminds me of when I first started in commercial construction, I couldn't believe all the jerks and a holes! But by working hard, learning, and giving a crap it didn't take forever to get in the click. Then after awhile you can see who knows and who blows..lol I have got some good info from here. I have also been on here and wondered how the person even signed up. there was that one time I saw some diyer that snuck in call Griz ,jiz?? you can tell they haven't been around a job site long or they would show respect. Im not the best but I try to be, Im not the highest but wouldn't care If I was. Unfortunately around here there are ALOT of hacks that make me look good. :thumbup:


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

pappagor said:


> add 20% to very bid till you are the most expensive then you will see how much you can make when you are at the top of your job level and not kicking the can:thumbup:



I'm just an employee. Dad is the boss. He just raised prices though. I'll keep nudging him.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

I think that the people one this board are more likely to be good contractors. If you do it all day and want to talk about it all evening it demonstrates that you habe a passion for the work, and therefore more likely to want to do well. If you just want to cut corners and make a quick buck then you probably wont end up on here learning how to do better. There's exceptions to every rule, of course, but I wouldn't be half the contractor I am if it wasn't for this board. I've learned a ton about professionalism, business management, sales, customer service, and construction from the people here.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

I think I am pretty good at what I do , mainly exterior metal work, and customers like what they see. Am sure that there are guys around better then me. Even at my age ,64, I feel I can still learn a thing or two and improve my work. One of the reason I like being here. Have learnt a few things from some great guys and hope maybe I have helped some too. Expensive? well hope I have have always given the customer what they paid for if not even a little more.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

I know I perform better than most of my competition. I also know some of my competition does great work as well. It drives me to want to be above the competition. I won't say I know it all or can't improve. 

I want to be at my best and the most profitable I can...if that makes me expensive so be it. 

This place has opened my eyes to so many different methods, tools, business ideas, and I have met some great guys. 

I will never forget when things were booming in 2005-2006 84 Lumber used to host a PGA golf tournament. They would bring a bunch of guys to the event for a weekend, free room, free drinks, free food, etc. I would sit at breakfast and listen to all the conversations. You could tell the BS from the real deals. I think it's a part of this industry...BS that is...lol!


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

I would never say I'm the best at what I do, however I am very good and try to do the best job possible at anything I do. I'll be the first to admit I know very little compared to some in here but I'm always looking for ways to improve my skills and product.

As for most expensive? Not even close, but I'm not cheap. Out of 10 non referred quotes I might get 1, 90% of my work comes from repeat customers or referrals. I feel I give good value for the rates that I charge through quality, experience and integrity. 

BTW I've recently taken advice from members in here and started to qualify potential customers I get from my site and truck advertising. After a few simple questions along with charging $40 for a quote I can determine if I would be wasting my time. Thanks everyone.


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

If I were the best I wouldn't waste my time reading and trying to improve. I'm sure it's not me because I have met several that have told me, they were the best.

As far as the most expensive... I'm jealous of those guys. The grass is always greener.


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## MarcoPollo (Dec 6, 2014)

I find this very intriguing. I often feel very small here compared to all of you. I am often very perplexed how some of you seem to know trades that maybe you never learned as an employee like I did. How you started.

I don't know how all of you have so many prospective clients that you seem to turn down more than you take and still charge out the ying yang

I know you aren't supposed to advertise your failures but I'm curious. 

Have anyone here ever run through their head any doubt? Have you ever wondered when a job goes badly if you should rethink what you're doing or wonder if you're doing hints wrong?

I have very pleased customers and have quite a few repeats in 2.5 years of doing this so I tend to think that I am doing this right, but with all the "bragging" going on I'd be curious to hear some admitted "jobs gone bad" stories. Any takers?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

If I can average $250 a day I'm doing good . Some days I make half that ! AND ! I'm almost double what the runners are charging . FEEL FOR ME!


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I'm the best there is at being the worst at everything. (someone has to be)

Tom


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

I am a very good tradesman and even better salesman. Pretty well rounded and I suck at letting people down or dealing with controversy.

Oh yeah, brokest I've been in 15 years due to failed relocation attempt.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I will say this also ...Give me the time . Give me the right conditions . Give me my price ! And I can promise you the best hanging and finishing you've ever seen in your life ! And that's no bullchit. 

It's just seldom that I get that chance . It's a shame really . That some only care after it's too late.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

My physical carpentry skills are average. I am not a very good salesman, and I am so so as a business manager. I excel at problem solving, customer service, scheduling, and job site organization. I would like to raise my rates every 6 months from now on and slowly price myself out of business.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)




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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

Also consider 'Value' when considering if you (or the HO) thinks the price is too high. Do you want to pay $1000 every 5 years or $2000 every 30 years? I stress quality materials and quality workmanship. I don't do 'Blow n Go' anymore. Yes, I turn down jobs when the client is price-shopping. I cut that visit short when they start talking about 'Cheaper products'. I'm not saying you must use all high-end materials, but I generally know what is junk. For example - I won't use any FJ materials on exterior work. I don't need a failure (that isn't even my fault), a couple years down the road, giving the impression that I didn't do a good job. That's my reputation on the line. If you want cheap, get on Craigslist.



MarcoPollo said:


> I'd be curious to hear some admitted "jobs gone bad" stories. Any takers?


Start a new thread, because THAT would hijack this one into 8,967 pages in 15 minutes :laughing:


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

MarcoPollo said:


> Have anyone here ever run through their head any doubt? Have you ever wondered when a job goes badly if you should rethink what you're doing or wonder if you're doing hints wrong?
> 
> ..... I'd be curious to hear some admitted "jobs gone bad" stories. Any takers?



Bad jobs & bad Ex's. Start trying to talk about them only gets you one step closer to court enforced anger management classes.
:no:

Father always said you don't have anything good to say-don't say anything. Some topics, I at least, have a MF'r  lot of nothing to say.


 OK I've recovered a little. Bad jobs are part of the learning curve. Never a matter of if but when. People never cease to amaze me.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

MarcoPollo said:


> I'd be curious to hear some admitted "jobs gone bad" stories. Any takers?



That would take two bar stools and a face to face brother !


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## bob hutson (Mar 16, 2013)

marco, everybody has had something go wrong, you fix it and move on. If your having doubts don't take the job. When you have done the work over time you learn more and can tell more about whats going on. I don't think a lot of us turn down work as we turn down customers that are looking for cheap, or just plain a pain in the azz. You only have so many hours in a day to make $ or not. Post all you want they cant eat you on here lol..


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## Ohio painter (Dec 4, 2011)

I think it would be arrogant to say one is the best, but I do know I give my best and expect the best of my guys. 
As far as price I go by a simple rule I learned on here, if you get all your jobs then you are too low, if you get no jobs you are too high. I like to think I am getting 50% of my jobs. Maybe I should research that for sure. 
As far as jobs gone bad....you are not remembered for what went wrong, you are remembered for how you fixed it. That is what I believe seperates most of us on here from the below average. How many times do we read a post and the advice given is "suck it up and learn from it"


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Here is a job gone bad story. 

The least professional I have ever felt/appear on a job. I was working on a guys house who would sit out back and watch the progress all day. He was picky and liked to have his say. I knew that going into it so it was time and material and we got along just fine. It never bothered me that he watched me work until things went downhill quickly one afternoon. 

I was ripping a cedar shake on a table saw when it kicked back quickly and intensely. It bounced of my ribs and flew about 20' across the yard. I was in intense pain and could not breath at all. I thought I had a broken rib. I didn't consciously lay down in the yard but that is where I found myself. As I laid there in the grass unable to breath with my table saw still running I realized my pants where fully unzipped. 

It was a low moment for me.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

The really top hotshots have neither the time, need nor interest to hang out here on any sort of continuing basis. They have other things to do.

IMO, the majority here are just passing through as part of a life journey. Some are on their way up, some are winding down. Some are great craftsmen but lousy businessmen, or vice versa.

Regardless, just as Wikipedia (reader edited) has become accepted as a pretty doggone good source of general information, this forum is similar when it comes to the trades. It's not really all that relevant whether you believe specific individuals are as good as they claim. What matters is the quality of the information you get here, and I believe that's about as good as it gets with a site like this.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Tinstaafl said:


> The really top hotshots have neither the time, need nor interest to hang out here on any sort of continuing basis. They have other things to do.
> 
> IMO, the majority here are just passing through as part of a life journey. Some are on their way up, some are winding down. Some are great craftsmen but lousy businessmen, or vice versa.
> 
> .


 And your a member .


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

....


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

blacktop said:


> And your a member .


How marvelously perspicacious of you to notice that. :laughing:

Is it time for me to go? :sad:


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

You can come flip burgers with me


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## illbuildit.dd (Jan 7, 2015)

Roofcheck said:


> I am a very good tradesman and even better salesman. Pretty well rounded and I suck at letting people down or dealing with controversy.
> 
> Oh yeah, brokest I've been in 15 years due to failed relocation attempt.


Exact description of me! Except being the brokest ever. I'm just still broke as usual!


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> How marvelously perspicacious of you to notice that. :laughing:
> 
> Is it time for me to go? :sad:


Passed time.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Best and most expensive? Depends on who you are talking to... a customer or a CT member... :whistling


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Tinstaafl said:


> How marvelously perspicacious of you to notice that. :laughing:
> 
> Is it time for me to go? :sad:


I'm the vice versa. :thumbsup:

If one expects me to stand there and sell myself It ain't happening !

All I need is a yes or no.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

blacktop said:


> If one expects me to stand there and sell myself It ain't happening !


There goes the gigolo gig.:whistling


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I know I'm not the best or the most expensive. I like to stay in the upper middle...good cash flow without the headaches that come from ultra high end

But I agree with the guy who said that the folks that don't give a sh!t aren't going to spend their evenings on trade forums; and with Tin who said that the guys who are at the very top don't need to


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

I think this forum itself has a natural tendency to attract higher quality contractors. 

Think about it. We're the people who care enough about our work to come here and talk about our work on our own time. It's somewhat logical that a lot of the people on this forum would be better than your average contractor. We care more about, invest more time in it, and am more passionate about it.

Myself? I'm neither the best nor most expensive in my area. Having just turned 23, I do feel I have some time to get there. That being said, I'm confident putting my work up against most of the so-called framers in my area. And I doubt I've ever been the low bid.


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

Also I'm going to disagree with Tin.

There certainly are a few top of the food-chain guys on this forum. Guys like Blacktop, Gus, and many more deserve to be recognized as elite in their class.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Whether you want to learn something new or share something you know, it's a good place to be. I can't see anyone sticking around if they aren't interested in either of those.


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## darthdude (Dec 30, 2012)

I feel like I'm a slightly above average carpenter, with slightly above average people skills, who can think, or BS, his way through when I get in over my head and things still turn out well %90+ of the time:thumbup:. I definitely work for a company thats more expensive then some though.:laughing: 
I like reading these forums, theres a good mix of people and experiences, if I ever stop wanting to learn how to do something better, then it's probably time to move on to something different. Doesn't matter how good you think you are, you can always be better and our industry changes every day. Building science/method and client communication seem to be the big things now, stay on top of changes and go with the flow, roll with the punches.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

darthdude said:


> I feel like I'm a slightly above average carpenter, with slightly above average people skills, who can think, or BS, his way through when I get in over my head and things still turn out well %90+ of the time:thumbup:. I definitely work for a company thats more expensive then some though.:laughing:
> I like reading these forums, theres a good mix of people and experiences, if I ever stop wanting to learn how to do something better, then it's probably time to move on to something different. Doesn't matter how good you think you are, you can always be better and our industry changes every day. Building science/method and client communication seem to be the big things now, stay on top of changes and go with the flow, roll with the punches.


You left out materials


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## darthdude (Dec 30, 2012)

blacktop said:


> You left out materials


I'd lump materials into my building science statement. There is certainly a lot of research and science going into the products we use now:thumbsup:.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

darthdude said:


> There is certainly a lot of research and science going into the products we use now:thumbsup:.


I Wish !


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## darthdude (Dec 30, 2012)

blacktop said:


> I Wish !


Come on, you guys just got light weight rock, it's there.:laughing:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

blacktop said:


> I Wish !


Let me rephrase that ... NOT!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

How would you even know if your the most expensive? What the other guy bid the job at, is none of my concern, nor do I really care. However, my customers volunteer that info quite often. Most want to make sure you know that, even though your the highest, they went with you.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

darthdude said:


> Come on, you guys just got light weight rock, it's there.:laughing:


ok.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> How would you even know if your the most expensive? What the other guy bid the job at, is none of my concern, nor do I really care. However, my customers volunteer that info quite often. Most want to make sure you know that, even though your the highest they went with you.



If I don't get the job I'll ask. (If they don't mind) to tell me why, just for personal education


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I get told all of the time I was either the most expensive or right up there with the most expensive.


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

My volunteer work is the most expensive available to any charity. I say free they say someone else could have done the same job for free too, but still went with me because my price was free. It's just an ego boost for them knowing they got the most expensive free work in the area.


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## quintana (Feb 13, 2015)

*The best*

I'm in the Seattle-Tacoma area market and I know we aren't the best. We don't have all the resources to be the best and we don't have the clients to be the best. We are really good, on the top 10 percentile but there are companies that are working with unlimited budgets and can create price winning projects. That said I believe we bring much more value for our price range and we surpass our clients expectations. We all know the best and if you don't then find them so you can copy them.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

darthdude said:


> Come on, you guys just got light weight rock, it's there.:laughing:


Wallboard has gone to the birds in the last 10 years . The formulas change like the weather with the muds too. 

At'least from what I've seen in my area. The L/W Boards save the manufacture shipping cost. That's the only reason they make It light. 

I Went a few rounds with the reps a few years ago .. I gave up! Total waste of time.

I remember when the only 2 boards we used were USG and Gold Bond. Both were good products !! No high shoulders , [Back then .Didn't know what the term meant] NO loose paper on the butts ,no ripples on the field, No air pockets ..No surface of the moon texture in the field . No damaged recess from the factory..etc...... I could go on . 

I'm still waiting for Certainteed to send me a t-shirt so I can make a you tube vid of me wiping my ass with it!! 


Now ...Wallboard glue. If you can wash the glue off your hands with soapy water ...Is It glue? 


Rant over...I promise I'll try not to bring this subject up again.. I'll try!!:whistling


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

Roofcheck said:


> It never seems to end how great every Contractor is on CT, how they are always the most expensive. I call BS.
> 
> PS I am not eliminating myself from this crowd.


nice thread a plus for you

the great thing about an anonymous internet forum is anyone can pretend to be something they might not be good or bad

honestly I'm a cheap hack who low balls constantly to stay in business using the lowest labor I can and who cares about insurance licensing permits and that other crap, 

heck they asked me who I was at the building dept the other day and all I could say is I got busted a couple times to many (honest to god truth, one inspector thinks I'm a moron but my bros back me up and tell him I'm good people I digress) so now I'm here to pull a permit my name is rusty truck

its fun to pump yourself up and look like the smartest guy in the game it's also fun to just let loose and act like an idiot, 

for instance I would love to tell a story right now (honest to god true story) but it involves the district attorneys office and a bunch of cut rate losers who pride themselves on being high end contractors yet they are the biggest clowns you could ever invite to a party, myself unfortunately being implicated, but until that "situation" is solved in the next 9 months I don't think it's appropriate to discuss till it's over, off the charts funny, yes, sad factor pretty high

if you cold called one of us and we showed up at your home we'd put the charm and knowledge on hardcore, acting like we were smart and all, but if you ran into one of us an hour later you'd wonder what was really going to happen with the thirty thousand dollar check you just wrote to me from you bank account, could you imagine a guy with a 1000 truck with only one door that works tattoos many earings felony record taking a 32 thousand dollar check from you and promising the world, heck I do that a couple times a year (I guess the biggest check I ever really got at one time was 58k)

When I was a kid told my dad I was gonna be an actor and he said finish high school and major in business at college and make something of yourself. Well I followed my dream instead and it ended abruptly in the mountains of colorado by pure accident, the only thing is I rake in the big bucks, yet upset my father dearly because I can do it looking disheveled and acting like a dipsh*&T one of my customers has a photo of him and george bush hanging out in his office, wtf, isn't the internet great


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

just found this thread, cool.
I will bid a job at least 10% less than my closest competition.
We all know what material and labor costs. so it all comes down to "how much ya wanna make"

the look on the other GC's faces when they get underbid by 10, 15, or the last job I won I was 35 g's under the closest competitor, is priceless.

They call me a hack and say I am ruining their business, behind my back.
when I meet them at a bar or elsewhere, they end up paying my drink.
once in a while they do come at me,

in other words... I am the best, cheapest, fastest.

I am the exception to the GOOD; FAST; or CHEAP saying.

( I should put down the bottle now)

I am so full of myself that I'm leaking sh!t from all orifices.

what was teh question?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

brunothedog said:


> just found this thread, cool.
> I will bid a job at least 10% less than my closest competition.
> We all know what material and labor costs. so it all comes down to "how much ya wanna make"
> 
> ...


Pretty thirsty tonight?


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> Pretty thirsty tonight?


the real problem is thats its morning here


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

I love this . The cream does rise. It likely is a commonality that most of charge a little more , or are , on the average, higher. And I m sure there are a few who think they are, and think their work is top notch, and they pretty much suck. Kudos to guys who strive to be the best , get paid well and stay profitable ...you deserve it. 

Here's a thought... When you are at the top of your game, you are fast and efficient ...most of you guys can make money at about any reasonable price point .


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

brunothedog said:


> just found this thread, cool.
> I will bid a job at least 10% less than my closest competition.
> We all know what material and labor costs. so it all comes down to "how much ya wanna make"
> 
> ...


Thats the way to do it when your young. PAy your dues, build a rep. 

Not when your greys start popping up.


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## kingcarpenter (Jan 30, 2015)

*every here is the best and most expensive*

I think most on here are good at what they do but how is it determined who the best is. If we give the best we have for that job, that makes us all the best. As for the most expensive, 40 plus years and still beating myself up daily, I'm guessing it's not me. However like everyone else I shun the price shoppers and the " well my cuuuzin can do it" types. If I can't get my rates so be it. There is always room for improvement no matter who you are and there is always room for more money as well needless to say. I go to bed every night knowing I did my best and if we have a call back on something, my lead man will be on it like flies on chit. That all that really matters.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Sure you're charging enough haha


I'm never sure


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## TNTCONSTREMOD (Jun 27, 2015)

We may not be the best nor the most expensive on CT but we are one of the most expensive in our area, and it's not because we want to be. This is our first year in business so our overhead is through the roof. We pay nearly 5 times what our competition is for insurance and twice a much for most of our lumber. Our quality stands behind our price but our bank account shows the overhead for sure. We are a 3 man shop with almost 5k in overhead per week. It's insane


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## Lanya LaPunta (Oct 31, 2010)

AGullion said:


> Well said . Everyone online is 6'3" with a six pack . it just gets me that some guys think they are so good, then you get them on a job site , and they don't know what they are doing .


I'm no where close to six foot three. However, I buy my IPA by the case, not by the six pack.

Find it much cheaper that way.


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## NDW (May 28, 2011)

I recently put an ad out looking for a new sub to help me trim out a house. One of the guys who responded said that his quality was "the highest." Guy shows up and he has no multi tool, no jig saw, only a 15ga gun, wobbly blade on his table saw and his power tools were litterally falling apart.

He beat the piss out of the jamb extensions he installed and I even found waffle marks where it had been hit with a framing hammer. What a joke.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

TNTCONSTREMOD said:


> We may not be the best nor the most expensive on CT but we are one of the most expensive in our area, and it's not because we want to be. This is our first year in business so our overhead is through the roof. We pay nearly 5 times what our competition is for insurance and twice a much for most of our lumber. Our quality stands behind our price but our bank account shows the overhead for sure. We are a 3 man shop with almost 5k in overhead per week. It's insane



Why would your lumber cost twice as much?
Why is your insurance 5x as much as the competition?


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## TNTCONSTREMOD (Jun 27, 2015)

Our insurance is because we are still in our first year in business and both 25 years old and lumber is because we do not have the volume discounts our competition does... The more we buy the better the price. We only have one real lumber yard around other than menards Lowe's and home depot and we choose them over the box because of the free delivery most of the time... They are competitive with big box but still not as low as what they are giving the competition


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTCONSTREMOD said:


> Our insurance is because we are still in our first year in business and both 25 years old and lumber is because we do not have the volume discounts our competition does... The more we buy the better the price. We only have one real lumber yard around other than menards Lowe's and home depot and we choose them over the box because of the free delivery most of the time... They are competitive with big box but still not as low as what they are giving the competition


I dont know where you live, but we got a top 10 trip ( fishing or hunting) from our lumber yard last year. Our prices are better but not nearly half cost of what we paid 7 years ago when we were doing 20% of the volume. Twice as high is hard to believe. 

Insurance wasnt 5 times as high, or even twice as high 7 years ago, and we shop insurance, not materials generally. Its actually higher now. 

Just curious, are salaries included in your 5k a week overhead?


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## Builders Inc. (Feb 24, 2015)

We buy direct lumber from the mill/manufacturer and have it delivered. And only get about a $2 discount compared to the box stores for lets say a 2x6x12'. This is buying bunks of lumber. How your paying double for lumber doesn't add up either. It can't be... I can get a #2 prime 5/4x 5.5"x16' deck board for $6.74. Lowe's sells them for 7.89 a board. Thats not a 50% savings. Thats a 15% savings. We have been buying direct for 20+ years in the six figures a year.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> I dont know where you live, but we got a top 10 trip ( fishing or hunting) from our lumber yard last year. Our prices are better but not nearly half cost of what we paid 7 years ago when we were doing 20% of the volume. Twice as high is hard to believe.
> 
> Insurance wasnt 5 times as high, or even twice as high 7 years ago, and we shop insurance, not materials generally. Its actually higher now.
> 
> Just curious, are salaries included in your 5k a week overhead?


Same here. I pay a higher premium today than I did 6 years ago.


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## TNTCONSTREMOD (Jun 27, 2015)

Labour is included in overhead as it should be... Maybe I am just buying premium products to keep our quality work to standards but the last bids we compared Apple's to Apple's we were twice as much on material this us been a recurring thing so I would assume not a fluke


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTCONSTREMOD said:


> Labour is included in overhead as it should be... Maybe I am just buying premium products to keep our quality work to standards but the last bids we compared Apple's to Apple's we were twice as much on material this us been a recurring thing so I would assume not a fluke


Labor is a direct job cost, not overhead. An office manager or owners salary ( not in the field ) would be considered part of overhead.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Labor is a direct job cost, not overhead. An office manager or owners salary ( not in the field ) would be considered part of overhead.


I always saw it as static costs of doing business.


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## Contractor Joe (Sep 28, 2011)

Texas Wax said:


> I can be among the best, when the $=Time to do so.
> 
> I always give the best possible + a little for the $ given in a project.
> 
> ...


I can agree with the 60/40 rule entirely!


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

TNTCONSTREMOD said:


> ....We pay nearly 5 times what our competition is for insurance and twice a much for most of our lumber. Our quality stands behind our price but our bank account shows the overhead for sure. We are a 3 man shop with almost 5k in overhead per week. ...





TNTCONSTREMOD said:


> Our insurance is because we are still in our first year in business and both 25 years old and lumber is because we do not have the volume discounts our competition does... The more we buy the better the price. We only have one real lumber yard around other than menards Lowe's and home depot and we choose them over the box because of the free delivery most of the time... They are competitive with big box but still not as low as what they are giving the competition





TNTCONSTREMOD said:


> Labour is included in overhead as it should be... Maybe I am just buying premium products to keep our quality work to standards but the last bids we compared Apple's to Apple's we were twice as much on material this us been a recurring thing so I would assume not a fluke


If you are accounting or thinking of the salaries of a 3-man operation as overhead, then you either have a problem with your accounting, or you have a serious problem with how you're doing business. In either case, you should change something. Your descriptions of costs also don't make sense to me, no matter how young or new you are - perhaps you're getting ripped off.

I'm also very curious about this apples-to-apples comparison you're talking about. I'd consider the possibility that you're being played, and you need to examine how you're bidding.

Tell us more about your situation (in another thread, maybe). We might all pile on and just exclaim about how smart we all are, but we might also be able to provide some useful feedback - I've gotten a lot of good business advice as well as trade advice here on C.T. Not that I'm admitting that I don't know everything about everything.

IMO.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

5k overhead a week is insane and is more than over 3.5k a week what mine is and I have 11 guys now.

Something isn't categorized right.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

drinks a lot if coke


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## TNTCONSTREMOD (Jun 27, 2015)

We have shop space we rent as well as work comp a dump truck box truck trailer internet phones advertising accounting... As well as our salary being owners included in overhead...We are working owners but pay ourselves salary


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> 5k overhead a week is insane and is more than over 3.5k a week what mine is and I have 11 guys now.
> 
> Something isn't categorized right.


How can your overhead be so low? 

Are those 11 guys all part time or do they get paid 5 bucks an hour?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> How can your overhead be so low?
> 
> Are those 11 guys all part time or do they get paid 5 bucks an hour?


He's not including labour costs as part of overhead...as he shouldn't...direct job cost


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

dom-mas said:


> He's not including labour costs as part of overhead...as he shouldn't...direct job cost


Ahhh that makes sense, so Bam is only including administrative labour and the other guy is adding in the "touch labour".


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I believe so


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## dave_dj1 (Mar 16, 2010)

As far as I know we are not the most expensive or the cheapest either. From this day forward I am going to re evaluate how I bid jobs. I do think that I have been under charging/bidding. 

How many of you do work on an hourly basis? I am going to try and avoid that now, bid it and go.


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## jstanton (Mar 25, 2012)

I have been told on the last few jobs I was the highest bidder. I was also told I was the only one they felt confident with. There is a very small percent of people that can sell, perform, and close high end work. I think most guys here fit the bill. Why else are we talking shop at 9pm?

I have customers that will wait a year to get on the schedule. Am I the best? Not even close. Do I have great carpenters, subs, communication, materials, product, of course. It took years of great work to charge what I do. The funny part is the more I charge the more calls I get. I think of it like a coach bag, it the most expensive but it's the best.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

I almost never work by the hour ...but what you have to watch, if you have employees and bid by the job, they have an hourly mentality


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

jstanton said:


> There is a very small percent of people that can sell, perform, and close high end work. I think most guys here fit the bill. Why else are we talking shop at 9pm?


Exactly.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

...


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

I'll let my customers determine if I'm ''the best'' or not..they are the only ones I'm concerned about..and I am deeply disappointed if they tell me I wasn't the most expensive..


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

jstanton said:


> I have been told on the last few jobs I was the highest bidder. *I was also told I was the only one they felt confident with.* There is a very small percent of people that can sell, perform, and close high end work. I think most guys here fit the bill. Why else are we talking shop at 9pm?
> 
> I have customers that will wait a year to get on the schedule. Am I the best? Not even close. Do I have great carpenters, subs, communication, materials, product, of course. It took years of great work to charge what I do. The funny part is the more I charge the more calls I get. I think of it like a coach bag, it the most expensive but it's the best.


I have recently raised my prices and because of the reputation we've earned, I'm starting to close even MORE business. I may have to raise them again, to slow things down.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

That is awesome...when guys do what you guys just said...jobs are being handled well.keep it up


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## heavy_d (Dec 4, 2012)

As I sell more and more decks this season, I have been raising my prices, and they keep selling! Working my way up!


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## illbuildit.dd (Jan 7, 2015)

THought about this thread today when I overheard a contractor tell my client "I can't do it for what I told you" after he took a harder look with his helpers.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Sometimes I understand that, sometimes I don't. Most of us get pretty good job vision over time.


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