# help with interesting estimate



## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

Got a call from a gentleman yesterday that said he needed some electrical work done at his house. Turns out he has no electric- at all. He's an Amish fellow that is wanting to sell his place and move out of state and the real estate agent is telling him he must have electric installed to sell the place in case the buyer needs a mortgage. The house in only 4 years old, 2 stories and completely finished, all but the electrical that is. So he wants a price to wire the house to code minimum, which means fishing almost everything. There is basement and attic access. The other issue here is that the house is 1,200 feet from the road. I haven't contacted the poco planner yet but I believe they will only bring their lines in 100', anything more and the customer pays through the nose. I'm thinking transformers are in order here but haven't yet priced them out. Anybody here ever do a job like this? I know estimating this job is going to take a lot of time but I'd still like some input from others here so I don't make an expensive mistake. He's wanting at least a 150 amp service but I'll be recommending at least a 200 considering he has 80 acres and a few large barns that someone may want to electrify eventually. T&M will be a hard sell on this one as he seems to want a firm price. Thanks for any help.


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## ABLE1 (Apr 30, 2005)

Bid high to CYA and if he likes it get it done.

Good luck!!!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I've wired a few new homes for Amish owners. I ruff them, then blank plate everything and put a glass in the meter socket. I thought the word was pretty much out amongst these folks that this is what you do. Four year old home? That's a shame that he didn't have it ruffed. You're gonna have to bid like an old work rewire, plus like a service upgrade. Shouldn't be too tough to bid, acutally. It's just a shame that he's in this pickle.


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## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

Forgot to mention this house was built with those pre-fabbed walls fully insulated and channels in the insulation every 6' with horizontal channels at 18" and 48" heights. Pretty neat and a very high R value. The house is just under 3000' sq. I was thinking around 10 grand for the house alone but haven't really broken it down yet.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

ATS said:


> Forgot to mention this house was built with those pre-fabbed walls fully insulated and channels in the insulation every 6' with horizontal channels at 18" and 48" heights..


Oh, my... SIPS. That's a Wiremold job, for sure. The unfinished basement will be your saving grace on the first floor, as you can stub up at each location with WM. That's gonna be a super 'spensive re-wire. Just for kicks, if you want to slap out a floorplan to post, I'd like to work up my sugguested device layout and price on that and post it here. It's a 3-day weekend!


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## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

You're a generous guy MD but I'm not really good at posting floor-plans or the like. Apparently these wall panels are pre-made with the channels already drilled for the wires. I've never worked with these as I don't get into new construction. The homeowner tells me he already drilled the holes in the floor to correspond with the factory pre-drilled wall holes spaced every 6' in the bottom plate. Then there are horizontal channels at 18" and 48" heights to accomodate receptacle outlets and switch outlets. The homeowner of course, thinks the fishing shouldn't be that difficult because of these pre-formed channels in the insulation. Like I said in the heading, this is an interesting estimate.


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

Any ag buildings?
How about power for them?
Only time I ever did a job that far from power we had to run 13.2 alongside the road and the utility company dropped a pad-mount next to the house.
You might consider selling him backup capability, at least the transfer switch part of the job
He would probably be better off selling it as is, and eating the price cut.
How'd he ever get the place past the locals?
How is the outside finished? The Amish [I hear] help each other a lot. Maybe he could get help and strip the exterior finish and put it back after you wire it from the outside. I've done THAT on 2 places that were getting siding replaced. It cost more than built new, but less than a total fish job.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

RobertWilber said:


> How'd he ever get the place past the locals?


I asked that same question last year from my inspector. The answer was that there is no requirement in the building code that a home be wired. If you do wire a home, then you need the minimum 100 amp service and all the other NEC minimums. Aparently, there's nothing that makes you wire a home. Weird, huh?


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

who'da thunk it?


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

If you don't wire it, how do you get the smoke detectors in? The requirement for them is in the building code, not the electrical code.

Must not be using any building code I've heard of.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

thom said:


> Must not be using any building code I've heard of.


Heard of the IRC?

_*R313.2 Power source.* In new construction, the required _
_smoke alarms shall receive their primary power from the build-_
_ing wiring when such wiring is served from a commercial source...._
_Smoke alarms shall be permitted to be battery operated when_
_installed in buildings without commercial power..._

If you don't have commercial power, then you don't need 120V detectors. Just battery interconnected one's.


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## ABLE1 (Apr 30, 2005)

mdshunk said:


> If you don't have commercial power, then you don't need 120V detectors. Just battery interconnected one's.



MD never saw a battery powered "interconnected" smoke. I assume you mean that the interconnected part is some wiring of sorts. 

I install low voltage when connected to a panel but then the panel needs to be powered by AC.

I would be interested to see some info on this. T

This is not a challenge, just adding to my education.

TIA

Les


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

ABLE1 said:


> MD never saw a battery powered "interconnected" smoke. I assume you mean that the interconnected part is some wiring of sorts.


The code does not specify that this need done by a wire. The code says, "..interconnected in such a manner that the actuation of one alarm will active all of the alarms...". This can be by RF. 

http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/Templates/Pages/Template-53/0,8062,pageId=4364&siteId=384,00.html

This is some of that goofy stuff that you'll never need to know, unless you're working for the Amish. Able... you're in a good spot for needing to know this stuff.


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## ABLE1 (Apr 30, 2005)

mdshunk said:


> Able... you're in a good spot for needing to know this stuff.


Thanks MD. I don't get any of those calls from the Amish. But now, I will have a few in the next couple of weeks.:laughing: 

Happy New Year!!arty:


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## Brendakeen (Oct 30, 2006)

*Just Curious.....*

I grew up in Ohio, not too far from Sugarcreek which is full of Amish. I was just wondering how they get around the building codes, which DO require smoke detectors and telephone wires, etc. 

How do these cities allow them to raise their own barns and things without permits??


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## ABLE1 (Apr 30, 2005)

Brendakeen said:


> I grew up in Ohio, not too far from Sugarcreek which is full of Amish. I was just wondering how they get around the building codes, which DO require smoke detectors and telephone wires, etc.
> 
> How do these cities allow them to raise their own barns and things without permits??


I never thought about it before concerning the permit issue. But, if I was to guess, "Special Exemption" would be my first guess. Doubt if we will get a direct answer from any Amish here so we will have to do some 'best guessing' on this subject. 

That is unless there is a code official or building inspector here that may be reading this and would like to contribute.:notworthy


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

Call your municipal permit office and ask if they ever had Amish come in for a permit?


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

I am a little confused how does an Amish guy call you ? Yell out the window ? Or does he use his cordless phone...They need a smiley face with an Amish hat and beard like Marcs picture:laughing: Amish NEC "non electric candles"


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

acrwc10 said:


> I am a little confused how does an Amish guy call you ?


Most have phones now, or access to one. They put the phone in the barn, outbuilding, back of a kitchen cupboard, or in a little shelter at the end of the driveway. It's not all like what you see on TV.


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

Just havin sum fun. No Amish here in California as far as I know. To bad this guy didn't spend a few extra dollars in the building stage to rough in the wiring, but we all make mistakes sometimes. I would suggest cutting and patching the walls as needed. The owner is most likely in able to get the patching done cheaper then the many extra hours it will take to fish the wire.


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## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

Like Md said, they do have phones, even state of the art radiant floor heat. I guess this system relies on natural circulation and standing pilot ignition as well considering there's no electricity. The power company tells me they charge $9 a foot to bring in their primary and provide the x-former, that's with me doing the trench, providing the 4" PVC or bed of sand if we went with direct burial cable (URD). I guess that's how I'll bid on this cause there's no way the secondary could be upsized enough to prevent massive VD and future liability. The Amish family seems to have the money so we'll see. The thing though with those SIP walls is they have OSB on both sides so removing the drywall wouldn't even help with the fishing, nor would removing the exterior siding. Still working on this one. Thanks for the replies.


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

I just read up on sips. sounds like a walk-in box .... 
The trade fluff from the sips manufacturers says it is a pain in the neck for our trade if you do the electrical when it is being assembled. ... even then it is like old work ...
how about heavywall and explosion proof fittings ...:wallbash: :cursing::whistling


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## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

Hey MD. I live not to far from Amish country in Westminster, Maryland so I have seen my share of Amish people when traveling through Central and Sounthern PA. I would have to say, that if your Avitar is really a picture of you, than you should have your phone in the barn also.

Ha Ha

Just having fun

Rob


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## mdcorreia (May 21, 2006)

ATS said:


> You're a generous guy MD but I'm not really good at posting floor-plans or the like. Apparently these wall panels are pre-made with the channels already drilled for the wires. I've never worked with these as I don't get into new construction. The homeowner tells me he already drilled the holes in the floor to correspond with the factory pre-drilled wall holes spaced every 6' in the bottom plate. Then there are horizontal channels at 18" and 48" heights to accomodate receptacle outlets and switch outlets. The homeowner of course, thinks the fishing shouldn't be that difficult because of these pre-formed channels in the insulation. Like I said in the heading, this is an interesting estimate.


I have not read all responses, may be I am jumping the gun. This does not feel right at all, very unusual, I have never seen it. Something went wrong before, whatever was, you do not know about. Too many red flags. I wired a house like that ( pre payment installments - keep ahead of the work in payments) Expect 2 - 1/2 to 3 hrs and some 4 hrs for each point (outlet etc.) except the basement. Who will be responsible for wall damages? Equate the senseless thing in finishing a home without being roughed in with what may happen to you if you get the job! Seems to me that you will very likely become a victim! Beware!


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