# Demand for an R-5 window



## abegaskins (Jan 26, 2011)

There has been a lot of bally-hoo lately among the window manufacturing community about an R-5 window. This window would probably require a 1.500 inch overall insulated unit which is triple glazed and has two layers of Low-E glass. The question is, is there a viable market for this product? The typical extrusion house will have to tool up for about $500,000+ in extrusion tooling because the sash will have to be widened, which means the main frame will have to be designed to accommodate the bigger sash. This also means the overall jamb width of a window will have to exceed 3 1/4 inches. So with this consideration, it means a replacement window will have to have a rather pronounced bevel on the outside of the window. All these are design consideration and constraints. So the real question remains: is there a viable market for this product?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

What do you think Abe? deeper than 3 1/4'' is going to eliminate the insert potential i would guess

Are we going to be seeing deeper frame new construction units from the major guys in the future do you suppose?


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## abegaskins (Jan 26, 2011)

Tom,
I'll post a concept drawing on Monday, when I get in the office. I've had in on CAD for about one year, but was waiting until the market was ready.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I would think that people who want that R value will also opt for 2x6 walls. We are going to be using some Loewen triple pane windows in a few weeks that supposedly have an R value of 8.


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## abegaskins (Jan 26, 2011)

Tom,
Here's a Jpeg of the concept That I did about one year ago. It is on paper only at this time. The window jamb is a "take out" sash configuration. I did not design a "tilt-in" feature because of the weights involved with triple pane glass. 

We use Cardinal Glass Low-E (same as Andersen, Pella,....). I called the Cardinal Tech group and asked what is the best R value we could get with their glass. By crunching the numbers, using Cardinal 366 Low-E on the second surface and Cardinal 170 Low-E on the 5th surface, we would acheive an R-7.2 window center of glass area. The overall R value would be a little lower, but still--it would be one helluva window. It would easily pass Heavy commerical with the "take out" sash feature. You could do large oversize openings for the same reason. Here's a peak:

(click on the picture for a larger view)

I have designed it so that you could leave the nailing fins on for replacement. You'd have to remove the brickmould and the sill bull nose and then leave the wood window carcass. Of course if you went this far, you could do a complete window tear-out, but that would involve some kind of a jamb extension to the inside. (We could then offer a cellular jamb ext. pre-dimensioned. The installer would just have to cut to length the inside cellular jamb extension.)


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## Bill Z (Dec 10, 2006)

*Loewen*



Warren said:


> I would think that people who want that R value will also opt for 2x6 walls. We are going to be using some Loewen triple pane windows in a few weeks that supposedly have an R value of 8.


I put the Loewen triple glass in my own house 5 years ago, it really is an excellent window. My picture windows are 7' wide and 8' high, and face west. Great in the winter and I have not turned on the air conditioning since we installed the windows.

IF someone can come up with that technology in an affordable window, there might be a market to the truly energy conscious buyer but it's going to be far from mainstream.

BTW: The center pane on one glass unit shattered in the heat last summer, Loewen wants $2800. for just the glass.


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## abegaskins (Jan 26, 2011)

That price makes my head shake left to right. If they would not be more reasonable, I'd look to get it from a glass distributer in your area. 

I'd recommend Specifying Cardinal 366 Low-e on the second surface and Cardinal 170 on the 5th surface. That's probably what Loewen is doing to get good numbers. All window companies, regardless of size, buy the Low-E and there are only about 4 players in the game:


Cardinal
PPG
Guardian
(I forget the new name it was AFG)
There may be a few others.
I've been to the Cardinal plant in Buford, GA. It's quite amazing technology. About a $50 million Capital expenditure to tool up to make Low-E. IMHO Cardinal's technology is the best. FYI, they purchased their equipment from Europe somewhere, I think it might be Austria--but don't hold me to that.

I'd like to see the test reports for an R-8 claim. It's all about the glass and the unit thickness. An R-8 would require, IMO, a quad unit.


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## Teoli (Feb 27, 2010)

*Not cold enough for most of the US market.*

We installed triple casement windows about 10 years ago in a new construction house. The customer had the money, was a little eccentric and ahead of his time. Maybe they had a better R value, but we had to go back so many times to adjust the crank mechanism because they were too heavy.
It left an impression on me that they are not for casements. 

Picture windows or Double Hungs? A better choice but is it worth the extra cost? My Lumber Yard will sell them but they don't push them. They stress that they are more for the Canadian market. From an economic point of view the energy payback for them even in a Chicago winter is too long. They cost too much. 

I'm for maxing out the energy savings envelope. But at what cost? It's out of reach for the average person. The market 5-6 years ago was able to support these types of upgrades. Now people are looking through the microscope for their payback time. Unfortunately it's not there, especially for windows. Bring back the 2009/10 tax rebates, that might help a little.


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## abegaskins (Jan 26, 2011)

pricing would be about 20-30% more than a double hung with low-e glass.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

we are in for more and more energy saving code requirements,whats exotic today will one day be just a starting point


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## ccappaul (Dec 3, 2010)

*Lotta weight for vinyl ?*

Ok maybe not a double hung but a slider or P.D. is gonna push the strength limits of vinyl.... 

I would like too see it in a fiberglass .


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## abegaskins (Jan 26, 2011)

ccappaul,
Good point on the weight. If we did a take out sash it would use a block and tackle balance. I think it would be part of the installation methods to anchor the sash cord to the stud behind the window. I would recommend that on any window. We have made some rather large units over the years. I've come to the conclusion (admittedly biased) that vinyl can hold a weight if the window is designed correctly. 

In this case, on a triple pain unit, the bottom sash rail should be reinforced with aluminum. The weight of the glass would be carried by this and transfered to the pin that connects to the sash balance. With the glass wet-glazed, the load on the glass is distributed. 

We have a test wall at our company, it is quite amazing what vinyl will do regards load resistance.

That being said, your point is well taken and must be considered in design.


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## abegaskins (Jan 26, 2011)

Tom,
I agree completely. Wish I had a crystal ball so as not to make a bad business decision. There is no doubt that energy conservation is one of the components of our energy needs. The question is, when to implement a new concept. If your ahead of your time, nobody buys your product and years later the only claim to fame is: he was not much of a businessman, but it sure was ahead of the times.


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## Oberon (Nov 2, 2006)

abegaskins said:


> There has been a lot of bally-hoo lately among the window manufacturing community about an R-5 window. This window would probably require a 1.500 inch overall insulated unit which is triple glazed and has two layers of Low-E glass. The question is, is there a viable market for this product? The typical extrusion house will have to tool up for about $500,000+ in extrusion tooling because the sash will have to be widened, which means the main frame will have to be designed to accommodate the bigger sash. This also means the overall jamb width of a window will have to exceed 3 1/4 inches. So with this consideration, it means a replacement window will have to have a rather pronounced bevel on the outside of the window. All these are design consideration and constraints. So the real question remains: is there a viable market for this product?


 
If you haven't already, you might want to talk to Cardinal about using their new I81 surface 4 coating. 

According to company literature, using I81 on surface 4 as well as 366 on surface 2 and an argon fill gives you U.20 center-of-glass in a dual pane.


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## Oberon (Nov 2, 2006)

abegaskins said:


> That price makes my head shake left to right. If they would not be more reasonable, I'd look to get it from a glass distributer in your area.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
AFG became AGC. They were bought out by Asahi Glass a few years back.

And I agree that R-8, even using center-of-glass in a triple, krypton-fill, is a stretch. As you said earlier, R7.2 is a very good number for any triple configuration.


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