# what the hell



## fourseasonswa (Jun 29, 2009)

So I just started my business this year been getting all my jobs no problem from people that know my work. One of my relatives asks me to bid a 60x 40 shop 12' walls with board and batten siding, three garage doors, four 5x5 windows and a man door, 5/12 pitch with 30yr argictectural roofing included I tell him $15,000 $2000 of that for the roof so $13000 for framing and siding labor costs. yea might sound high but I cut no corners which people pay me for. He comes back saying he can get it done for $6000 I'm stuck in limbo I can slam it together for that price and barely make the bills I like the guy and he can get me more work but it blows my mind that I'm that far off. I don't like putting my name of stuff thats just slammed together I want the work but I need some other thoughts on this any input helps. I Just built a 36 x 40 with lp and shigles for the gables 8/12 for $14,500 which he never even questioned my bid. Am I way off here I'm so confused


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Don't give in.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

fourseasonswa said:


> So I just started my business this year been getting all my jobs no problem from people that know my work. One of my relatives asks me to bid a 60x 40 shop 12' walls with board and batten siding, three garage doors, four 5x5 windows and a man door, 5/12 pitch with 30yr argictectural roofing included I tell him *$15,000 *$2000 of that for the roof so $13000 for framing and siding labor costs. yea might sound high but I cut no corners which people pay me for. He comes back saying he can get it done for* $6000*


He cut your price by 60%. Why are you even wasting time thinking about this?




> I'm stuck in limbo I can slam it together for that price and barely make the bills I like the guy and he can get me more work but *it blows my mind that I'm that far off. *


Why is it that you're so far off? Why aren't you looking at it like the other guy is so far off and not you?

Take off 60% and go down to match that price and you look like you tried to stick it up your friends a$$ from the start.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

X2, you cant work for free. Free dont pay the bills!! Even a relative should understand that, and you alreay gave him a break in your quote when comparing the price of the last garage you built. If they have someone for $6k then let that person do it, leaves no hard feelings between you and family. The only time i do any favors or give big breaks are for those that i know will return that favor or savings, other than that they can pi$$ up a rope!!!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

What if he came up with $3000? 

If it costs you X to do it what difference does it make if somebody says I can get it done for X minus $10,000? Why not X minus $12,000 or X minus $20,000?

They are just numbers with nothing attached to them.

If it cost you X it costs you X, what difference does it make that some unknown nobody might be able to do something maybe close to resembling the work possibly they heard from a cousin's uncle who knew a guy once that could do it for XYZ?

If you cut no corners and that's what people pay you for then obviously this guy is not one of those people is he? So why are you talking to him?


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

Did he say WHO could do it for 6k ? Just might be a ploy.


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## CScalf (Dec 18, 2008)

I would stay the course, and simply, say, I wish I could do it for that but unfortunately I can't, I hope that they give you the quality that you deserve and would get from me. see what happens:thumbsup:

and maybe he can get you more work, but it would go like this, yeah he built me a 60x40 shop and it was only 6k, do you want those jobs, or a 60x40 for what you need to turn a profit?


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

Stand your ground.

I just bid a 12' x 12' shed. I planned on 9' walls, stick framed roof 16"oc 2x6, walls sheathed, hardie lap, 1 window, site-built dbl 2-6 outswing doors. My material costs were the same as for the local lumber yard to fully install one of their "sheds". (they have everything on 24" centers, 6'-8" wall height, no sheathing, no lap siding - just primed T-111 acting as sheathing and siding, no window. (like in this picture attached)

It is a night and day comparison. If you are selling to a bottom dollar shopper, it is always good to explain the differences. You are a cadillac contractor - not a yugo contractor. I applaud your high standards. There needs to be more quality contractors and less cheap posers.


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## LEVELBEST (Dec 28, 2006)

I quoted a friend of mine to trim his new 5,000 sq ft. house and he called me after he got my quote and told me that I was about $2000 higher than anyone else. I told him that I just couldn't do it for that due to the fact that I pay my guys more than most because they are better than most.......he was fine with it. He wasn't upset with me.......he was more worried about how I would take him not giving me the job. I knew better than to go down on it bc I didn't want him to think I was trying to screw him with the first bid(which I wasn't).


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## HusqyPro (Aug 3, 2009)

Remind your customer that the space shuttles Challenger and Columbia were built by the lowest bidder.


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## Handymanservice (Mar 1, 2009)

I can't figure out how you can even build it for the price you quoted. Maybe there is an existing foundation? No trusses?

The last garage I built was a 16' x 16', monolithic slab, truss roof 5in12, dimensional shingle, 15' garage door, 36" steel mandoor, 2-3020 windows, single pane aluminum and 16" OC KD studs.

That was $16,500 and only had an 8' plate height. I could never even think of offering prices so low, you are right to stand your ground, in fact, triple check your numbers to be sure they are correct. If they are, DO NOT lower your price, it will only hurt you, not help him.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

Welcome to the new age of contracting, times are hard financially, people are losing jobs/being laid off so what's THE #1 job guys flock too as a back up plan.......we're in it-Construction. I cant tell you the influx of hacks popping up all over the place offering to do work at off the wall prices, I've looked at and bid more work this year than ever before, and have been told i'm waay out of the ballpark this year than ever before....and i have'nt raised a single labor rate, just materials have gone up a bit....that's just how low labor has gone, all these fricken fools operating under the radar offering to do stuff for next to nothing.

I dont see it changing anytime soon, there will be some customers willing to pay more for true quality, but mass work, cheapest price wins it....so be prepared to sit around and watch ole rusty trucks/vans pull up on jobsites, next year start up a repair service, i betcha you'd be swamped after this years hack attacks.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

What the hell? Welcome to every day business. 

You just received some very valuable FREE advice, I would take it to heart and listen carefully to what was said. Don't worry to much about what you just did (hack your prices to an absurd level) and learn from it. 

We all went through this and it will take some time. It sounds like you have the BUILDING talent, now just need some minor tweaking on the business end is all. 

And relax! Over doing your emotions in a situation like this broadcasts your level of experience to the customer. The more over the top you are, the sly ones will prey on you like hawks.


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## deckman22 (Oct 20, 2007)

I'd have to agree, your price is too low. If you can do it for that then don't even think about budging on the price.

Beside you're going against the golden rule of contracting, don't work for friends or relatives. That's not a hard & fast rule, but is true 95% of the time.


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

Around here the rule of thumb has always been around $9k per garage bay, i gotta agree with handyman your price seems low to me.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

deckman22 said:


> I'd have to agree, your price is too low. If you can do it for that then don't even think about budging on the price.
> 
> Beside you're going against the golden rule of contracting, don't work for friends or relatives. That's not a hard & fast rule, but is true 95% of the time.


 
Tell me about it. I am going to do a bathroom for my bro in law and i told him 15-20 days in all as he changes his mind each day about what he wants in there. Well his other bro in law is the original hack and he told him that he would do it and he could have it done in 3 days . I was even there when he said that and told him that unless his work days were 40 hour days it's impossible. But all my bro in law thinks about is the time/cost and he truely believe's that he can do it in 3 days lol. SO it makes me look like im taking ages. I told him to get him to do it in 3 days. Cant wait till the job starts.


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## Rockhound (Jul 12, 2007)

Tell him: 1- To go ahead and have Gouger and Co. to do it. 2- That you will NOT visit him in the hospital when it collapses on him. 3- That you will require TWICE the original price to clean up and rebuild and 4- That he had better not talk crap about you to the rest of the family or you'll physically remind him what you do for a living.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

If I'm doing a $10K job, and then the owner tells me he can find someone who can do the job for $5K and want me to lower my price, here's my standards response:

*"I can easily find someone who will do it for $15K. I guess my price can go up as well!"*


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I simply respond "then if price is the issue lets stop wasting eachother's time and get them to do it"

As my grandfather use to say "tell em' to go piss up a god-damn rope!"


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

hard to believe you could actually build it for 6k. I've got a 24x60 w/ 20 of the 60 enclosed, rest is open, material cost ONLY is close to 12K (w/ concrete). 

are your numbers w/ concrete?


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## fourseasonswa (Jun 29, 2009)

Wallmaxx that looks like the Puyallup fair behind you. Well I live in Olympia willing to travel for work so if you ever need so if you ever need some quality framing siding or roofing done just let me know. Just please don't cut my price in half


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## chelsea (Aug 8, 2009)

That sucks dude. I remember when I was younger,my buddies landlord wanted a price for a new roof and removal of a billboard. Guy almost fell over when I gave him the price. Found out later he had someone do it for just about the same amount that I had figured just for materials.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Tell them to save the "garage sale" priceng for actual garage sales. Never lower your price. You lose credibility when you do that. Sometimes I will throw in some additional work (ie felt install, add a door, minor trim detail, etc) but I will not lower my price. Bidding should not be guesswork. You calculate the price using one or more of various methods.


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

fourseasonswa said:


> Wallmaxx that looks like the Puyallup fair behind you. Well I live in Olympia willing to travel for work so if you ever need so if you ever need some quality framing siding or roofing done just let me know. Just please don't cut my price in half


Lynden Fair - a couple of hours north of you.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

fourseasonswa said:


> I like the guy and he can get me more work but it blows my mind that I'm that far off.


So you like the guy and he can get you more work, but isn't that true of most of your clients? I mean, do you hate 51% of them? Are they buying headstones from you? Then what is different about this guy, other than he's mistaken or being mislead. 

Have him name that tune. Equal is equal. Have him show you the specifications for the bid he received for 6k. If he can't, then he doesn't have a bid, he has a WAG. If he can, then show him what the difference between what you're offering and what he's really being offered. Don't forget warranty and insurance. If you're a real business, educate him on what it takes to be a real business and let him decide if he's going to stake his future shop on the back of a wild azz guess, or you tried and true experience. 

Approach him as you wish, but if you can't talk plainly with him about what really is important when hiring a contractor, like the things I've mentioned, then he really should do some more shopping and comparing. He might know where to buy all the kewl tewls that all the kewl kids have this year, but as far as buying a building to put them in, I think the kid is lozt...

Good luck


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

He comes back saying he can get it done for $6000 I'm stuck in limbo I can slam it together for that price and barely make the bills I like the guy and *he can get me more work* but it blows my mind that I'm that far off. I don't like putting my name of stuff thats just slammed together I want the work but I need some other thoughts on this any input helps. I Just built a 36 x 40 with lp and shigles for the gables 8/12 for $14,500 which he never even questioned my bid. Am I way off here I'm so confused[/quote]

I was out there last week,and it looked like a lot of new building is still going on(at least near the golf course in Lacey,by Martin Way).I was told a lot of those homes were bought by guys in the Service.So work doesn't seem too scarce. 

iF HE PROMISED YOU MORE WORK,HE'S JUST WORKING YOU !!


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

So he wants to build a 2,400 square foot shop, framing, siding, and roofing for $6,000? That's $2.50 a square foot, can he even buy the materials for that cheap?

Don't try and compete with that, I wouldn't even build a dog house for $2.50 a square foot.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> *he can get me more work*


Thats such a bogus line, if I hear thoes words slip out of someone's mouth you won't be able to see me through the cloud of dust behind me running away.


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## john5mt (Jan 21, 2007)

Where are you getting your materials at? 15000 sounds more like a materials bid for 40X60. 

6000 grand for that garage????
no way
your three doors will cost at least 2500 bucks. 

windows and entry door minimum 750

Concrete:3000

Oops out of money


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## Birch (Jul 20, 2009)

fourseasonswa said:


> .... I tell him $15,000 $2000 of that for the roof so $13000 for framing and siding labor costs.


 
I believe he is quoting labor pricing only.


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## lavrans (Jul 6, 2008)

I'd hope it was labor only. I wouldn't budge on price, or believe the "more work" line. Well- it might be true that he could get you more work, but it's easy to get work that loses you money. If you've got enough volume you can go quite a while before you realize that you're actually losing money.


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

I was upset today when a client needed me to drop my price 15%, but I told the client I would review the estimate. I went back over the bid and did drop my price, something I very rarely do without changing the scope of work. I had some room on the material, and I like the client so I did drop my price, but I only dropped my price 6.5%. If I am asked to drop a price more that 20% I don’t bother with even reevaluating the numbers.


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## fullcompass (Sep 29, 2008)

480sparky said:


> If I'm doing a $10K job, and then the owner tells me he can find someone who can do the job for $5K and want me to lower my price, here's my standards response:
> 
> *"I can easily find someone who will do it for $15K. I guess my price can go up as well!"*


:clap: for '480sparky'

And far as dealing with family it's a 'slippery slope'.


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## NWBuilder (Aug 29, 2008)

Run fast and Run far!!!


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## Graham J (Nov 7, 2008)

*I hope your bid is labor only!*

I just built a 20'x24' garage on my property, by myself, for myself. (I did get some help from my dad and brothers, but it was free). The materials alone, from concrete ($2100) to electrical (close to $2000, including some other stuff as well) is closing in on $16,000. That involves gravel for the base, rebar, concrete, the package (to lockup), vinyl siding, and some machine work to prepare the site. My labor is not even counted in the guess. 

Don't lower your price at all. Working for family can be very rewarding, and also a real nightmare.
Regards,
Graham


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## cbfx3 (Aug 25, 2009)

I bid a 10k square foot house @ 151k .. extremely cut to pieces! seems like it had around 40 or so hips and valleys all on different elevations ... real difficult structural plan with loads of steel beams everywhere (even in the roof!) Durango Framing bid it at 46 thousand... :huh:


as if I had 100k in profits?? haha I say let them do it. An old wise man once told me its OK to go home tired .. but dont go home tired and broke


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## jmthouston (Apr 2, 2006)

cool dam avatar


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

IHI said:


> Welcome to the new age of contracting, times are hard financially, people are losing jobs/being laid off so what's THE #1 job guys flock too as a back up plan.......we're in it-Construction. I cant tell you the influx of hacks popping up all over the place offering to do work at off the wall prices,
> .


It makes sense. In OR/SW WA the construction trades rate of unemployment is 25%. 

33,000 construction workers are out of work right now, and with no one hiring, of course they are going to do the one thing they know how to do - construction.

The Carpenter's union just agreed to a pay freeze and a 15% pay cut on all jobs under $4million. Guys who were used to making $32/hour plus benefits are scraping by on unemployment and side jobs.

Bitching about the 'lowballing hacks' just won't cut it over the next couple of years because you can't stop desperate people from trying to make a living. 

People are going to have to lower overhead costs and expect to make less profit if they want to keep in business with the influx of low priced competition.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

cbfx3 said:


> A old wise man once told me its OK to go home tired .. but dont go home tired and broke


Definitely words to live by.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

custrel said:


> It makes sense. In OR/SW WA the construction trades rate of unemployment is 25%.
> 
> 33,000 construction workers are out of work right now, and with no one hiring, of course they are going to do the one thing they know how to do - construction.
> 
> ...



That's well and good but i'm being forced to play the hand of barely making expenses myself to stay afloat, nothing like treading water all season and pray nothing goes wrong since it'll throw the whole money thing outta whack.

Only way i can see to cut cost any deeper than i am already is to drop all insuraces, stop pulling permits, give people a "cash deal" and go hack status.


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