# Poorly designed architectural plans homeowners recourse



## festerized (May 19, 2007)

Yet again I have another potential customer who hired an arrogant architect who wants a retainer to correct their mistakes! Plans have obvious mistakes, impractical framing techniques and variations from page to page as if architect took two different drawings and combined them together. 
I have a meeting with HO this week to review drawings and look at the project. My question is what recourse does the HO have, Who can they complain to? Small claims court, registration board? What are the Liability of an architects


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## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

I am curious, are the plans approved and are permits pulled?

If the city building department can't make heads or tails of them they should just be kicked back to the archy time and again.

Also, what does argent mean? Just a typo?



Andy.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

festerized said:


> Yet again I have another potential customer who hired an argent architect who wants a retainer to correct their mistakes! Plans have obvious mistakes, impractical framing techniques and variations from page to page as if architect took two different drawings and combined them together.
> I have a meeting with HO this week to review drawings and look at the project. My question is what recourse does the HO have, Who can they complain to? Small claims court, registration board? What are the Liability of an architects


It's unfortunate and real fact that many plans are as funny as the funny papers and are useful only as TP

Recourse will have much to do with how the design agreement was written. 
Example might be related to limits of design time
X$ = Xhrs of design time. Owners changed things up ect and used up the time...They got what they got

Many times in the fine print "the contractor is responsible to review for errors / omissions and contractor ultimately responsible for proper construction" The blanket statement "I can be a dumass and still get paid."

State AIA board would be a good resource as to expectations and responsibilities, from a formal complaint stance. If Licensed of course.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

What does the contract say?


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

Contract is between HO and architect so I don’t know what the terms are. Regardless of design time allowances as Tex mentioned architects still need to be held to a higher standard as a professional and provide an adequate and a mistake free drawing


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> I am curious, are the plans approved and are permits pulled?
> 
> If the city building department can't make heads or tails of them they should just be kicked back to the archy time and again.
> 
> ...


yes typo (corrected) Plans have not been submitted yet, guess HO is waiting for clarity


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

If push comes to shove HO may need to take action against architect and im sure HO will ask me for advice.
Found this article, http://blog.aia-nj.org/2011/07/08/practicing-architecture-without-a-license-–-don’t-let-it-happen/
Architect in question does not have licences or reg # stated on their website or plans, thought all who register with NJ consumer affairs are required to post Reg#


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

No good deed goes unpunished.

Do you really want to get this involved, and have the architect this much of an enemy before the job starts? 

Seems like the HO's only recourse is to fire the arch, and then sue to recoup their money.


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

Actually its my responsibility to review drawings and site conditions, clearly stated on every drawing in general notes. 

I can’t tell every HO who has a bad plan to find another architect, its not just about money with these flood jobs its time, you only have 1 year to use up your money. Honestly I have only seen 4 good architects’ plans out of about 50 in the last two years that did not have problems of some sort. 

Architects around here are pushing through as many as they can and guess deal with problems later. What im experiencing is the arrogance from the architects, there basically don’t want to hear it as if there is no recourse so they don’t give a chit


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

I don't envy you


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

Anti-wingnut said:


> I don't envy you


just another day another dollar


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Your preaching to choir here

I found only one architect who produces very good plans, the rest are meh and some are downright unbelievable. 

Currently Pickle and I are building a 4 story apartment building...with only 11 pages for the entire project...and they got the permit with it too. 

We did an 18,000' townhouse complex with 12 pages

I find the best way to deal with it is RFI after RFI after RFI

Maybe I am just used to it


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

festerized said:


> If push comes to shove HO may need to take action against architect and im sure HO will ask me for advice.
> Found this article, http://blog.aia-nj.org/2011/07/08/practicing-architecture-without-a-license-–-don’t-let-it-happen/
> Architect in question does not have licences or reg # stated on their website or plans, thought all who register with NJ consumer affairs are required to post Reg#


I have seen a few plans like that were they copy and paste crap that don't belong to the structure. One HO was showing me plans for an addition and they had details for a job with a commercial metal roof... addition supposedly had a crawl space and they show built on slab, etc. When I called him and asked wtf is this, he goes one of the associates probably made a mistake. 
There was a bunch of other stuff and he wanted to charge them to make the changes which I knew needed to be made in order to fly in that town.
I think they filed a complaint with BBB, Consumer Affairs and AIA. He picked wrong HO to fk with LOL.

As licensing goes, in general if he is unlicensed and he makes the plans and the HO submits them as they prepared them, they can do that (which is fk'up if you ask me) but in NJ is accepted... a HO can submit his own drawings if they doing the work themselves, not excluding plumbing and electrical (which of course it never happens and they hire every hack they can find)

If he does the plans and has a licensed Architect who stamps them, the Architect cannot stamp his plans with his name on it, the Architect must have his own information on the plans and he becomes responsible for the plans... so if building department has questions or need letters, they call the Architect and letters must come from a Licensed Architect.

As your HO goes, they have to do what they have to do according to theirs agreement, you did your job by picking his plans apart, now they have to straighten this mess up among themselves. 

Good luck Bro


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

festerized said:


> Actually its my responsibility to review drawings and site conditions, clearly stated on every drawing in general notes.
> 
> I can’t tell every HO who has a bad plan to find another architect, its not just about money with these flood jobs its time, you only have 1 year to use up your money. Honestly I have only seen 4 good architects’ plans out of about 50 in the last two years that did not have problems of some sort.
> 
> Architects around here are pushing through as many as they can and guess deal with problems later. What im experiencing is the arrogance from the architects, there basically don’t want to hear it as if there is no recourse so they don’t give a chit


Yup, I only know of two architects that seem to have been framers first. Nick Feldman in Louisville, KY and Philip Lust in Quincy, WA. All the hundreds of other plans I've used have included an additional amount of on-the-job work that we weren't paid for to figure things out.

I push Andy's name for design work. He does amazing stuff...and its "real world" practical too. Maybe there is time to have someone try and deconflict the current plans so that you can move forward.

You're in a tough spot with the clock ticking.


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

Chris Johnson said:


> Your preaching to choir here
> 
> I found only one architect who produces very good plans, the rest are meh and some are downright unbelievable.
> 
> ...


Wow.

I'm used to 40 - 80 page plans for light commercial or multi-unit projects. I'll look for the last 3-story assisted living project we did and get some real numbers.

Wow....11 pages.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

wallmaxx said:


> Yup, I only know of two architects that seem to have been framers first. Nick Feldman in Louisville, KY and Philip Lust in Quincy, WA.


Most would be useless on a framing job anyway.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

wallmaxx said:


> Yup, I only know of two architects that seem to have been framers first. Nick Feldman in Louisville, KY and Philip Lust in Quincy, WA. All the hundreds of other plans I've used have included an additional amount of on-the-job work that we weren't paid for to figure things out.
> 
> I push Andy's name for design work. He does amazing stuff...and its "real world" practical too. Maybe there is time to have someone try and deconflict the current plans so that you can move forward.
> 
> You're in a tough spot with the clock ticking.


Funny you mentioned that, I heard there is an Architect around here whose BF was a framer and he sticks his 2 cents in everything she does and everything comes out fk'up.
You would think between the two they would get it right :laughing:


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## Alan M (Jan 18, 2015)

I think architects should have some kind of apprenticeship on site system. they should know how things work in real situations not on paper
im sure we all have stories of drawings that are not practical. 

on a job I was on last year, the drawings showed 4 4foot office desks in a 16 foot alcove. 
simple math tells you they are going to have to jump over the desks to get in there


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

Any one who has had the privilege of doing business with a architect knows, That after you have read AIA a701, a201, a401, and g701 you are f#cked, These guys never make a mistake, You do !!!, and best of luck its all in their favor :sad:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> Your preaching to choir here
> 
> I found only one architect who produces very good plans, the rest are meh and some are downright unbelievable.
> 
> ...






Once upon a time, I built a 2500 sq. ft. home with 32 pages.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

fjn said:


> Once upon a time, I built a 2500 sq. ft. home with 32 pages.



So that's 1/3 of the details?!

Pickle and I did 1700' last year...97 pages and we still had a few RFI's...but I can tell you, we knew where every floor joist went, exact location of towel bar, tissue holder, light switch, placement of shut off valves, it was all there


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## Framer87 (Dec 27, 2014)

Chris Johnson said:


> So that's 1/3 of the details?!
> 
> Pickle and I did 1700' last year...97 pages and we still had a few RFI's...but I can tell you, we knew where every floor joist went, exact location of towel bar, tissue holder, light switch, placement of shut off valves, it was all there


And... required? Or simply unrealistic and a waste of money?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> So that's 1/3 of the details?!
> 
> Pickle and I did 1700' last year...97 pages and we still had a few RFI's...but I can tell you, we knew where every floor joist went, exact location of towel bar, tissue holder, light switch, placement of shut off valves, it was all there


Lucky bastid....:laughing:

Used to be an architect out of north shore Tahoe that was a Journeyman Carpenter. His plans were awesome to build off of...:thumbsup:

Mostly now days one is lucky if the finished product resembles the drawings...:whistling

Reviewing a set of school plans that has 95 pages for HVAC & window replacement....


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Also, what does argent mean? Just a typo?
> 
> 
> 
> Andy.


Way off topic, but argent derives from Latin and means silver. 

Also, my high school's nickname was the Argents.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Framer87 said:


> And... required? Or simply unrealistic and a waste of money?



Not a waste of money, everyone knew what was expected.

The downfall...you actually had to look at the plans to know what you were doing. Not so bad for structural, but for MEP's they had to look and follow, rather then design their own layout it was dictated to them. Electrical and Plumber were fine, HVAC guy had a problem...he was an ESL person.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

festerized said:


> My question is what recourse does the HO have, Who can they complain to? Small claims court, registration board? What are the Liability of an architects


Typically you don't have recourse for something that hasn't been built as there are no tangible damages. You can choose to accept them or not but if you commissioned an architect to do the drawings on an hourly basis, it might as well be wall art.

The only instance where I've seen an owner get recourse is when the design caused construction delays and rework... like when the inspector or engineer comes in and determines that the house does not have enough structural support and the house needs a few more columns. The owner is ultimately responsible for the change order but he can seek recourse from the architect. Even at that, it would be have to be proven as to whether the design met industry standards or if the inspector was just being... ahem.. particular.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> So that's 1/3 of the details?!
> 
> Pickle and I did 1700' last year...97 pages and we still had a few RFI's...but I can tell you, we knew where every floor joist went, exact location of towel bar, tissue holder, light switch, placement of shut off valves, it was all there





Same with the 32 pager,knew where every nail went,however,there were so many overlays on plans that it made you dizzy reading them. In reality,if he wanted to show that much detail,he truly needed to use more paper.They would have been much easier to read.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

The 30,40,60 + page homes of 2500 sq. ft. are truly a double edged sword and IMHO not necessary and probably a disservice to the client. For all the trades see that level of detail / minutia and submit their price accordingly.

While all know the architect's fees must be steep,the trades also know he is probably laying the ground work to back charge because a light switch is a half in off.While viewing that many pages is not a license to steal,only a fool would give their "normal" price on such a job.


Aside from all that,it is ridicules and unnecessary and does not impress me one bit. Especially since Independence Hall in Philly was constructed with only one page for the working drawings !


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

I emailed HO a list of items that needed to be corrected or verified and explained architect is resposbale for his drawing, you should only be charged for extras etc. Architect responded and agreed with my recommendations at no additional charge to HO.

It’s clear to me now that the architect’s apprentices or new guy handled this project, why he let it pass out the door without first reviewing is beyond me. 

What kills me is the amount the HO paid this guy, 6K for a 600 sq ft addition. After talking to the HO today I find out this architect is the same architect who was used to put on an addition 5 years ago, so architect pulls up previous plan adds on 600 SQ FT and says pay up sucker. Here the kicker, there’s only 3 pages


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Framer87 said:


> And... required? Or simply unrealistic and a waste of money?





You hit it dead on ! Unrealistic and a HUGE waste of money. And paper.:laughing:


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## Framer87 (Dec 27, 2014)

fjn said:


> You hit it dead on ! Unrealistic and a HUGE waste of money. And paper.:laughing:


Here we have an Archie that worked carpentry as a journeyman till he was disabled his ankle due to workplace accident. He then went to school for civil engineering, designed trusses at a truss plant for many years, then went to drafting as his own business. Never a problem or surprises with his plans. 4000+ sq/ft on less then 10 pages all the details any certified tradesman ever needs. Comes highly recommended by all.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Framer87 said:


> Here we have an Archie that worked carpentry as a journeyman till he was disabled his ankle due to workplace accident. He then went to school for civil engineering, designed trusses at a truss plant for many years, then went to drafting as his own business. Never a problem or surprises with his plans. 4000+ sq/ft on less then 10 pages all the details any certified tradesman ever needs. Comes highly recommended by all.




Good analogy. The key point is "less then 10 pages all the details any certified tradesman ever needs".


I have to question any architect / designer who is that anally retentive and that much of a micro manager that they feel they need 50 pages for a 3,000 sq.ft. building. Makes one wonder what rumdum they had in mind to execute their design.


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## bwiab (Mar 17, 2006)

The eternal battle :laughing::laughing::laughing: You could go to an architects forum and see the exact same thing... only switch out architect for contractor and design for construction and drawing for project...




festerized said:


> Contract is between HO and architect so I don’t know what the terms are. Regardless of design time allowances as Tex mentioned architects still need to be held to a higher standard as a professional and provide an adequate and a mistake free drawing


I find it funny that many on here promote hiring craigslist basement guys and then wonder why they end up with crap. Was the guy a licensed architect? Did he use AIA contracts? A standard clause in them is that if the bid cost comes in x% over the architects estimate the architect is required to revise the drawings free of charge in order to meet the original budget. References and demonstrated capability go a long way on both sides of the coin. Always get three bids, even if you're just keeping your buddy honest. Homeowners shoot themselves in the foot. I'm starting to feel less and less sorry for them.


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## giantfan (Sep 25, 2009)

greg24k said:


> Funny you mentioned that, I heard there is an Architect around here whose BF was a framer and he sticks his 2 cents in everything she does and everything comes out fk'up.
> You would think between the two they would get it right :laughing:


Would that Architect's first initial ba a C?????

If so I have built a couple of houses that were designed by this duo...... what a mess


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

fjn said:


> Good analogy. The key point is "less then 10 pages all the details any certified tradesman ever needs".
> 
> 
> I have to question any architect / designer who is that anally retentive and that much of a micro manager that they feel they need 50 pages for a 3,000 sq.ft. building. Makes one wonder what rumdum they had in mind to execute their design.


Depending on the structure, it's design, it's features, etc etc, that may hold true.

Given todays abundance of various material options, 10 pages doesn't necessarily cut it anymore.

The house we did was a 2 storey, full basement. 3 pages of the architectural floor plans, 3 pages showing the plumbing, 3 pages for the electrical, 3 pages for the mechanical, 3 pages for structural, 4 pages for elevations, 1 page for survey with house plotted, 6 pages with cross sections, countless pages for connection details, countless pages for layout of rough in for future items (there is a reason the floor drain is in a particular exact location, etc) 9 pages of finish spec's, the list goes on and on. Yes they could have eliminated a few pages, but not 80


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> Depending on the structure, it's design, it's features, etc etc, that may hold true.
> 
> Given todays abundance of various material options, 10 pages doesn't necessarily cut it anymore.
> 
> The house we did was a 2 storey, full basement. 3 pages of the architectural floor plans, 3 pages showing the plumbing, 3 pages for the electrical, 3 pages for the mechanical, 3 pages for structural, 4 pages for elevations, 1 page for survey with house plotted, 6 pages with cross sections, countless pages for connection details, countless pages for layout of rough in for future items (there is a reason the floor drain is in a particular exact location, etc) 9 pages of finish spec's, the list goes on and on. Yes they could have eliminated a few pages, but not 80





Well,here is something to ponder. As I mentioned in this thread,Independence Hall in Philly was built with a one page drawing. How many pages would your Starchitect need to communicate his design concept on a project like that ????


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

fjn said:


> Well,here is something to ponder. As I mentioned in this thread,Independence Hall in Philly was built with a one page drawing. How many pages would your Starchitect need to communicate his design concept on a project like that ????


Today...300 plus, thanks to the architects, designers, engineers, mechanicals, landscaping, lawyers, insurance companies, etc, etc.

In the 1700's - 1 page as design on the fly was how it was all done - basically - Make it look like this

Has it been renovated since it was build? If so I bet there are several additional pages to the 1 original one


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> Today...300 plus, thanks to the architects, designers, engineers, mechanicals, landscaping, lawyers, insurance companies, etc, etc.
> 
> In the 1700's - 1 page as design on the fly was how it was all done - basically - Make it look like this




Exactly ! Also,here is a real brain twister regarding Independence Hall.Talk about a an engineering feet,here is the puzzle,like to see if anyone can figure this out to as how it was accomplished.

On the second floor,there is a room 40' X 40' it is clear span.This room has no columns or partitions below supporting the floor timbers. Even more intriguing / puzzling,there is not one floor timber in said room that spans more than 3/4 the distance of this 40' sq. room.


So,the question is,how did they do it ? Even better yet,the architect did not commit reams of paper showing it in details. The builders just did it !


How was it done ? ? ?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

That's the million dollar question

Kind of like the pyramids, no paper back then, I assume a stick was used to draw in the sand and then every time the wind blew they had to redo the drawing!

I remember a story my dad told me when I was a kid. I think it was in England where there was a bridge built out of wood and not one fastener used. They wanted to move the bridge, photographs were taken and every piece was labelled, documented and removed. At the new site they could not put the bridge back together


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Chris Johnson said:


> That's the million dollar question
> 
> Kind of like the pyramids, no paper back then, I assume a stick was used to draw in the sand and then every time the wind blew they had to redo the drawing!


Papyrus (first form of paper)


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Chris Johnson said:


> That's the million dollar question
> 
> Kind of like the pyramids, no paper back then, I assume a stick was used to draw in the sand and then every time the wind blew they had to redo the drawing!
> 
> I remember a story my dad told me when I was a kid. I think it was in England where there was a bridge built out of wood and not one fastener used. They wanted to move the bridge, photographs were taken and every piece was labelled, documented and removed. At the new site they could not put the bridge back together





Actually,the method is not a mystery,it is just a brain twister to envision until one sees it drawn out. The term is called hand in hand floor framing. It was illustrated in a book called Building Early America published by The Carpenters Company Of Philadelphia . Try as I may,I have not been successful to pull up images on the net. I do own the book though. 


For those more computer savvy,perhaps they can access some photos depicting how it is doe. Very simple but also very amazing.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

I found the drawing I was looking for !!!!!:thumbup: Evey once and a while,even a blind hog finds an acorn ! Pretty amazing system to not have 50 pages of drawings and details for the builder to follow.:laughing:



https://www.google.com/search?espv=...howflat%26Number%3D17934%26page%3Dall;600;450


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