# Wall Collapse



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Well i don't get it. the pictures and part of the article say that there is no rebar, another part opf the article says that the rebar "only came to the top of the block" Maybe they mean the first course. Definitely shows poured cells but no steel that I can see


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> Why? Because he's seen work that has stood for decades without re-inforcement? Everyones experience is valid


Those buildings were presumably built to code in their day! We need to step out of the past. I believe technology has come a long way. You are comparing apples to tomatoes.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Looking at that last pic it shows a dowel sticking up but not grouted. Then there is a series of blocks grouted without steel. it' almost like they grouted 4 blocks and skipped 4 blocks grouted blocks and skipped 4 blocks 

Yeah that's a bad wall


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Not going to bat for this mason, but if the trusses were set without bumping the wall, which is what I assume happended, everything would have been fine. Until the 1st hurricane/tornado, as mentioned before.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

heavyc said:


> Those buildings were presumably built to code in their day! We need to step out of the past. I believe technology has come a long way. You are comparing apples to tomatoes.


But those buildings had trusses set o them without collapse. All he's saying is that it can't ONLY be a case of no re-inforcement. I would say that the grout breaking as easily as it seems to makes me think that the work was done in too hot conditions or maybe with too little water. I know that grout doesn't make up for steel but it's still, reasonably strong. Strong enough that it shouldn't be knocked over by a gust of wind unless it was hurricane force winds (are there tornadoes in TN?)


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

heavyc said:


> Sounds very nieve.


How am I nieve? I was a liscensed masonry contractor in fl. Ive built hundreds of block houses. Ive also cut in openings in huge mother fing buildings that just had durawire in them. 12" block no steel, no concrete, no cracks. Up here it may not even be code to pour the cells, especially if there is structural steel in the building.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

I think what you are assuming is grout is merely sprayed insulation. Which should only be placed/sprayed in cells with no grout. I imagine everyone involved is putting there lawyer on speed dial.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

JBM said:


> How am I nieve? I was a liscensed masonry contractor in fl. Ive built hundreds of block houses. Ive also cut in openings in huge mother fing buildings that just had durawire in them. 12" block no steel, no concrete, no cracks. Up here it may not even be code to pour the cells, especially if there is structural steel in the building.


So when they jump off a cliff your tethered to them.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

heavyc said:


> I think what you are assuming is grout is merely sprayed insulation. Which should only be placed/sprayed in cells with no grout. I imagine everyone involved is putting there lawyer on speed dial.


Ahhh most likely


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

So I actually read it, all speculation. 

Here is the line that leads me to believe it was something else. 



> "Our opinion is inferior masonry work," Adcock said.
> The footings, concrete floor and the block walls were constructed last year by another contractor, Adcock said.


So the building sat around for a year and now it falls over due to inferior masonry ? 

soemthing stinks.


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## Wile E Coyote (Aug 8, 2012)

dom-mas said:


> ...I know that grout doesn't make up for steel but it's still, reasonably strong. Strong enough that it shouldn't be knocked over by a gust of wind unless it was hurricane force winds (are there tornadoes in TN?)


Tornadoes can rarely occur in that part of the state but even when they do occur they are relatively weak and short lived. Micro-bursts (big wind gusts) are a much greater concern.

However, on the day of the collapse, the wind was absolutely no more than a typical day at the beach. Perhaps a maximum wind speed of 15 mph.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Not trying to disrespect any opinions or others credentials. These types of happenstances tarnish our trade as a whole. Very upsetting to see these failures in this day and time. And I believe in this case truly preventable.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

The "expert" witness is with a the contractor firm that was on site. Apparently, according to him, the wall was built a year or so earlier by another contractor.

The block walls that were shown in the debris seem to be filled with foam, so they were apparently they were there before someon decided to put some trusses on them.

In the background the structure is a steel frame structure, so the information is not clear nor is the reason to use a wood truss system. Since it seems to be a news reporter writing and article, the lack of facts is not surprising.

Sounds like a garbled mixture of information and one for the insurance companies, owner, engineers and many others. Those things would not happen with good contractors on the site that have some control.

I just watched an interesting job (strip mall) being built a couple of blocks from my home - I could watch it out the window of my McDonald's when I have a breakfast. The strip footings and frost walls for it were in place before going up.

The first end wall was built on Thursday & Friday last week and was about 16-18' high and 100' long. They put up the partially reinforced wall in 2 days (including grout). A single course of bond beam with some partially grouted vertical steel at about 4' and no meaningless full grouting. They attached cables to the the walls that were attached to pallets of block to be used for the rest of the building and pulled/torqued them to get the wall true and vertical. Over the week-end, we had 15 to 20 mph winds on the wall with gusts to 35 mph on the fresh wall. On Monday AM, they were setting steel for the roof and interior columns. Everything was going by the book, as it seemed. - I will keep watching for the next month or so, when it should be finished as I eat my breakfast/coffee almost every morning. - Fortunately, the weather is decent (30's to 50's and no slop).

When you see a window in the weather, you go for it and do it right.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

On many occasions people who don't know any better or don't care what happens down the road... they get hired to build this structures, add additions, do structural repairs, etc and when they do something they cut corners thinking that since nobody can see the wrong doing its going to be OK until something happens. 

Here is a perfect example, I'm taking over a job that someone botched up in not imaginable way. There is allot of structural work involved and nothing is done right, nothing is code compliant, and it drove people out of theirs home when the ceilings collapsed from the water ruing everything inside.

This is a structural beam which suppose too carry second floor addition and the roof. The beam was slipped from the top, covered with plywood and exterior wall was erected on top of it carrying the roof. You cannot see the beam from bellow because its existing dining room with Sheetrock ceiling. 
Thank God that the house got flooded and the ceiling collapsed and exposed the beam which was cut in half because there is a wire in the way, not to mention it should have been installed under the wall above, and this one is not even under the wall and is offset to the side of the wall.

This stuff is not amusing me anymore, because there is so many messed up tire kickers out there who do messed up work and God only knows how many more houses out there with hidden work like this waiting for failure to happen.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

The guys setting the trusses definitely had their hand in causing the collapse. Too few details to really get into it. But the walls stood for over a year. The weight of the trusses absolutely did not exceed the compressive strength. It was a lateral issue most likely caused by improperly setting the trusses or hitting the walls with something.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Agreed. I missed the part earlier wher eit said the walls were erected last year. Plenty of wind events in a year that IF they were going to fall because of wind they would have. And I agree. Even unreinforced masonry can take pretty much whatever compression you want to throw at it. The re-inforcemnet is almost 100% for lateral stability and since it's not below grade that lateral force only comes from the wind or mechanical means


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

greg24k said:


> On many occasions people who don't know any better or don't care what happens down the road... they get hired to build this structures, add additions, do structural repairs, etc and when they do something they cut corners thinking that since nobody can see the wrong doing its going to be OK until something happens.
> 
> Here is a perfect example, I'm taking over a job that someone botched up in not imaginable way. There is allot of structural work involved and nothing is done right, nothing is code compliant, and it drove people out of theirs home when the ceilings collapsed from the water ruing everything inside.
> 
> ...


 


Great picture,triple floor joist and the monkey with the machine gun (air nailer) stll missed the target.:laughing:


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

Craigslist "jack of all trades" strikes again.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

growing up as the son of an engineer.....I was always mindful of "load".....some people have no idea what that even means.........for the reason you see pictured I always overbuild never ever underbuild......I like to sleep at night


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