# Built in gutter repair question



## Home Serve (Apr 26, 2007)

On a job today replacing windows and doing other work I noticed a problem on a older house I would like to try and help them with (young new home owners).
The house has been remodeled by a true hack and sold to these folks. The roof is new but the built in gutters were not repaired. They are leaking back into the soffit and down the walls and out the siding. The ice of course has made it worse. When we removed one window in the area and it was soaked from the situation.
I'd like to help them deal with the issue if possible. We do have a bending brake and I could picture possibly using it to flash the interior of them but would wonder how to bond the pieces together in a waterproof fashion and so forth. 
It is a small house, probably about 60' of built in gutter.
Got some ideas for me?
Thanks,
Dave C


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

Ive seen them lined with copper and the seams soldered


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

We did a "temporary" re-line with aluminum, 
just a tight 12" lap slathered brush on geo-cel between for the whole 12".
There was @ ½" fall in 10', 
but that was 10 years ago, and they are still work.


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

neolitic said:


> We did a "temporary" re-line with aluminum,
> just a tight 12" lap slathered brush on geo-cel between for the whole 12".
> There was @ ½" fall in 10',
> but that was 10 years ago, and they are still work.


Yea Geocel is great stuff, expecially the brush on, Another great use for it is under patio doors.


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## Home Serve (Apr 26, 2007)

neolitic said:


> We did a "temporary" re-line with aluminum,
> just a tight 12" lap slathered brush on geo-cel between for the whole 12".
> There was @ ½" fall in 10',
> but that was 10 years ago, and they are still work.


I remember using geo-cel many years ago now. I'm thinking you can get it in a can to brush on. It is good quality and I believe it would work if we take our time and are careful. There aren't any corners so that should help. The ice will be off the roof tomorrow so I'll take a closer look at it.
Thanks for the help all who posted.
Dave C


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

To be sure I was clear, 
what we did was form 10' sections of coil into a squared off "U", 
to make a liner.
Just didn't make any fancy seams--simple laps.
Geo-cel was just to "glue" them together.:thumbsup:


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## Home Serve (Apr 26, 2007)

neolitic said:


> To be sure I was clear,
> what we did was form 10' sections of coil into a squared off "U",
> to make a liner.
> Just didn't make any fancy seams--simple laps.
> Geo-cel was just to "glue" them together.:thumbsup:


Yeah, I thats what I figured you were talking about and that was how I was going to do it also. I think it will work well.
Thanks,
Dave C


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## dennis (Nov 17, 2004)

"Got some ideas for me?"

1. Call a qualified roofer with experience soldering and installing copper built-in gutters.

or

2. Find the holes in the existing gutter, clean them well, apply geocel.

Then, call a qualified roofer with experience ...


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

We do quite a bit of these repairs and repalcements. First you can reline them, but understand in doing so the new liner will be more shallow, and I have seen downspouts back up and into the space between the original and the new liner.

Second, you can try to identify the problem areas, clean, prime and patch with EPDM roof membrane which seems to work well, but if one spot is bad the rest soon will be, and this only a temporary repair.

If it were my house, I would tear back the first few rows of shingles, remove the existing and install brand new. I'd use copper or galvanized because both can be soldered, and each piece can be no longer than 10' so there will be alot of solder joints. 

If you are relining or replacing, it really takes a lot of thought to get the pitch just right. It's not hard, just have to think and rethink before you bend each piece. If you don't you will either have standing water within the gutter or a really jacked up looking new system.

BTW I hate Geocel. It might stick and last, I don't know, but I prefer Vulkem.

Also I don't warrant patch repairs. Reason ebing although MY patch will last, more leaks will pop up and rather than convince the owner it's a new leak; I just tell them this will work for a short while and then you will need to replace it. 

One other thing I have bid, but not done, was to rivet metal over any holes, then reline the entire gutter with solvent or urethane (NOT ACRYLIC) based elastomeric. Again no warranty, although I couldn't see this gutter leaking any time soon.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Grumpy said:


> ....Also I don't warrant patch repairs. Reason ebing although MY patch will last, more leaks will pop up and rather than convince the owner it's a new leak; I just tell them this will work for a short while and then you will need to replace it. .....
> Again no warranty, although I couldn't see this gutter leaking any time soon.


That's what we said....and why I'm so pleased _and amazed_ that it lasted so long.



dennis said:


> "Got some ideas for me?"
> 1. Call a qualified roofer with experience soldering and installing copper built-in gutters.
> or
> 2. Find the holes in the existing gutter, clean them well, apply geocel.
> Then, call a qualified roofer with experience ...


Hmmm.
First time I tried that I got 6 different gutter guys who had no clue about "dutch gutters".
Most couldn't even wrap their heads around the concept that the original was made of poplar.:whistling
Either wanted to cram 4" rolled ogee's in to replace 6",
or rip the facade down and make it shiny new!
The fun ones are when the leader is buried in the wall!


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Another solution, which was slightly hinted at by Grumpy, is to line the exiting inlaid gutters with an elastomeric coating and a fibeglass or polyester reinforcement mesh with a bottom and top coat of the elatomeric. This needs to go under the shingles on the high side and over the shingles on the low side.

It has to be clean and dry for it to hold. On the lowere side, which should be going over the shingles, you can decoratively cap the elastomeric memberne with some color clad sheet metal.

Ed


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

Home Serve said:


> Got some ideas for me?
> Thanks,
> Dave C


tell em to hire a roofer who does custom pole gutter work:thumbsup:


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Soldered copper or leaded copper in 2' lenghts, as specified for copper Built-in gutters. Hire a pro.


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## Home Serve (Apr 26, 2007)

dennis said:


> "Got some ideas for me?"
> 
> 1. Call a qualified roofer with experience soldering and installing copper built-in gutters.
> 
> ...


I am as qualified roofer as these customers need to do a repair on their built in gutters. I simply know that like most other issues there are several different methods of repair. 
These folks aren't lawyers with heavy checkbooks. If knew someone as you describe in #1 and could trust them to perform the repairs at a reasonable cost this might be an option. However, this simply is not case in this situation, if it was I would not have asked the original question.
As I described the problem originally, your answers don't do much for me.
Many of the other responses have offered some real answers to the issue.
Thanks guys,
Dave C


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Rather than calling guttering contractors, I would suggest contacting a reputable sheet metal fabrication and installation shop, who have guys who know how to solder properly.

You will have better luck contacting them for the proper level of talent required.

Most gutter guys just know how to pump out seamless and hang them as fast as they can.

Ed


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## dennis (Nov 17, 2004)

"Many of the other responses have offered some real answers to the issue."

I see 4 for doing it with copper, 1 option for epdm lining, 1 for aluminum smeared with geocel, 1 for coating and mesh. Not sure what bone saw meant.

Notice the terms, temporary, no warranty.

I agree, there are different methods of repair. And different repairs will last different periods of time. And cost different amounts of money.

I was just trying to give the best option. It's your job and you will do it the way you want.

My option #2 would allow for a low cost temporary repair while the home owners saved up the money for a permanent solution later. (if they actually saved and did the work instead of waiting till the window rotted out again)

Another option would be a PVC membrane liner. Costs less than copper but would do a better job than aluminum and sealant.


neolitic, 
notice I didn't say " gutter guy". I think you would be hard pressed to find a "gutter guy" that could spell solder.:whistling


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## Home Serve (Apr 26, 2007)

dennis said:


> "Many of the other responses have offered some real answers to the issue."
> 
> I see 4 for doing it with copper, 1 option for epdm lining, 1 for aluminum smeared with geocel, 1 for coating and mesh. Not sure what bone saw meant.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Dennis I guess I just had one of them days, I thought you were just being a smart a**.
Dave C


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Hey, I guess I spelled "solder" right.

Woo-Hoo!!! :clap:

Ed


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

dennis said:


> Not sure what bone saw meant.


I meant to tell them to hire a roofer who does pole gutter work:blink: or dig up your seamers, tongs, irons and salamoniac and do the job right:thumbsup:


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## theroofinggod (Jun 28, 2007)

we`ve lined them with copper, peel-n-seal,app,sbs,epdm,etc,and installed new drain sleeves with it,except for obvious holes the drain sleeve is usually where the leak


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

Looks like you have plenty of options on what materials to use now and the only thing i would add is if its a repair to keep the precipt out until they "home owners" save up the money to have it re done i would suggest limiting what you do.
Figure out where the water is getting in and direct your repairs there period and than re coat all with a sealant, relining the entire system will be more materials to be removed later thus more cost later "tear off one layer cost this$,tear off two cost that$" because of time.
Plus being that the roof was redone recently the problem may be in the roof also were it tyes into the gutter system.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Rather than calling guttering contractors, I would suggest contacting a reputeable sheet metal fabrication and installation shop, who have guyas who know how to solder properly.
> You will have better luck contacting them for the proper level of talen required.
> Most gutter guys just know how to pump out seamless and hang them as fast as they can.Ed


Exactly!
If they have the leaders/down spouts that run down through the wall,
it becomes a multi-discipline operation, with high levels of common sense.
Assuming that no one has actual experience dealing with them.
(Don't know how common that was in a given part of the country)
But if permanent repairs are to be done, 
the leaders aren't likely to be far behind the gutter, and far less likely to have ever had any maintenance.


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## theroofinggod (Jun 28, 2007)

here in new york it`s a roofing problem,same as drains,scuppers are to a flat roof,with severe conditions it pays to know guttering as well,as we consider gutters to be an integral part of the roof system,whether they are built in or not,but this is a typical set up on older homes


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## fogbutt (Jan 9, 2008)

*how did it go*

Did it work well?


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## biggutter (Feb 26, 2009)

*relinig gutters is easy*

I would only reline with 20 oz copper. make sure to remove the olds liner, check framing for loose or rotted wood and fix, line with ice and water shield(the good stuff), bend up yor pan(make sure you brek your pitch, then rivet away and solder(dont forget to butterfly the verticals), line top with more ice shield put the roof back on, cut in your drop outlets and solder, its that easy.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

you metal guys do sweet work


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## Spanjo (Feb 28, 2009)

If you do reline with new copper - you'll want to make sure that you put a slip sheet over the ice and water shield and under the gutter. Most guys use red rosin paper. This keeps the ice and water shield from getting sucked up into the soldered joint when it's heated up. And if you get ice and water shield in your soldered joint - the seam is basically no good.
S-


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## user38755 (Jan 1, 2009)

Going to be working on a similar project(built ins/100+yrs old) and the product we plan on using is EternaBond Webseal and TopCoat. Clean, prime, seal, top. New flashing will go under the existing slate that will not be removed. Will this work? Is this the right way to go about it? Removing slate is not an option, they are over 100 years old and none exist in our area that I have found. 1" thick and 8" wide with 12" exposer. WebSeal claims a 25 year warranty without TopCoat, not willing to test it though so it gets topped. Think it will work and last? 45 9 payne D/H windows will also be reglazed and painted along with new crown, cove, banding and freeze to be replaced(What we went to look at and found the problem)


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## mattp (Apr 5, 2006)

MetalBender said:


> Going to be working on a similar project(built ins/100+yrs old) and the product we plan on using is EternaBond Webseal and TopCoat. Clean, prime, seal, top. New flashing will go under the existing slate that will not be removed. Will this work? Is this the right way to go about it? Removing slate is not an option, they are over 100 years old and none exist in our area that I have found. 1" thick and 8" wide with 12" exposer. WebSeal claims a 25 year warranty without TopCoat, not willing to test it though so it gets topped. Think it will work and last? 45 9 payne D/H windows will also be reglazed and painted along with new crown, cove, banding and freeze to be replaced(What we went to look at and found the problem)


Would you mind taking pictures throughout?


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## user38755 (Jan 1, 2009)

Plan on it! HO wants to see too. Starts in 5 weeks weather permitting.


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