# Help on green side of green roofs



## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

I am a roofing contractor in N. Idaho looking for someone to edumacate me on the living side of green roofs. Any experts out there? 

I am doing more and more of them nowadays and need some expert tutoring (and supply if you are fairly local) on the drain mat, root barrier and most important, the soil. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated and, yes, I did say "edumacate" :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Green roof? I understand the term and I understand the necessity for a Green Construction Motive. But if you are not an Urban (inner city) dwelling, then I see no point, not one, in the need for a Green, Growing roof! JMO (I am a critic of the term Green. It is so darn misused!)

You say "more and more of them these days......" (sounds like you are already an expert!). Please quantify. Sounds like hype (like most "Green").


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

Oh malco, pls don't mistake me for some p.c. tree hugging loon. About as far from it as they get. :furious::furious:

Let me try this...
I am a roofing contractor in N. Idaho looking for someone to edumacate me on the living side of *LIVING* roofs. Any experts out there?

I am an expert on the roofing part of the system, not on the living part.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Renegade said:


> Oh malco, pls don't mistake me for some p.c. tree hugging loon. About as far from it as they get. :furious::furious:


Thank God! Just testing (who made me a Judge?) YOUR waters!


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

Wow Malco, I either pissed some ppl off or no one is doing this type of work on here.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

renegade -

Get in touch with a lanscape arcitect or a top flight nusery to find out more about what is needed to grow planr materials in non-standard conditions like too warm below in the winter and soils that drain too well.

There were many of these but in the 1970's and early 1980's in the midwest. Due to roofing/waterproofing problems and sagging of the wood framed flat roofs, many were converted to earth bermed structures with conventional roofs. At one time the was a "Underground Space Center" at the University of Minnesota that was the national clearing house for information and they had many publications on earth shelter design and construction and "living roofs". They may still offer some of the information.

As you know, they are still being built, but heating/cooling is not expensive enough to cause a revival - maybe next year after all the cost increases come through.


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## orson (Nov 23, 2007)

Renegade,

I don't think you pissed anyone off, just that there is not a lot of living roof experience on this site yet, I don't think.

I have done some research on green roofs in anticipation of eventually installing one, I'll dig up some good links...

This is one of the companies I thought looked good: http://www.roofmeadow.com/

Here is a PDF file of specifications for GAF Gardenscapes green roof system, the only system I know of which is warrantied from the membrane to the foliage: http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/161001.pdf

Here is an Illinois study of using different depths of growth mediums on green roofs, this is a good read for technical info: http://www.green-siue.com/images/First_Green_Results.pdf 

Here is a list of different living roof systems manufacturers:
http://www.greenroofplants.com/green_roof_links.htm#Manufacturers

Here is a contact for an expert in what fauna to use in your climate: http://www.uncommonplants.com/index.html

Here is a source to buy the plants: http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/161001.pdf

Here is a link to Wikopedia definition of 'sedum' which is a plant used quite a lot in roofscapes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedum

My $.02: I've done just enough research to know that I would not go with a modular system, but I don't have the expertise to explain why yet. If you haven't already, you may want to plan on investing in a newer type of leak detection unit (electric field vector mapping) that electronicaly locates leaks in roofs. You will almost certainly need this if you're doing green roofs.


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## orson (Nov 23, 2007)

concretemasonry said:


> As you know, they are still being built, but heating/cooling is not expensive enough to cause a revival - maybe next year after all the cost increases come through.


Another important reason to install "grass" roof systems is to reduce ground-water runoff during rain and storms, particularly in urban areas. They also provide habitats for birds and insects, and they massively extend the life of the roofing membrane. They also significantly reduce the amount of sunlight being converted to heat and warming the atmosphere(as opposed to heat transferring to the building increasing cooling loads in the summer)

Just wanted to point out there are many good reasons to install these that don't necessarily impact the wallet directly:thumbsup:


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## orson (Nov 23, 2007)

Roof system manufacturers specify the dead load psf required to support the roof. This part of the equation may require beefing up the roof framing to accomodate the additional weight of the green roof which in addition to it's dead load is retaining a good bit of water which is increasing it's live load. 

GAF's system requires a dead load capacity of 25psf, probably a good baseline to give you an idea. 

You will probably need to enlist the aid of a structural engineer to determine if the framing is adequate for the added weight, unless of course the roof manufacturers have engineers on staff to analyze the framing for you.:thumbsup:


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

orson -

There is a long history of living roofs. The first had many problems and were very educational. and beneficial.

The biggest problem was using a wood framed or trussed roof system. Even though they were or could be structurally strong enough, over a short period of time there was some deflection/creep that caused a slight amount of moisture accumulation because ther was no place for it to go. This added to the load, which created more deflection/creep and so on. - The same thing happens to large big box type structures with ponding that can and has caused collapses. The drawings and detais look good, but organic material(wood) do not respond well to steady long term loads. The consensus was to go with sloped trussed roofs or horizontal precast concrete planks. The insulation and

The goal of storing water to decrease runoff is certainly noble, but it is conter-productive when it stores too much and over-taxing the structure, causing good roofing/waterproofing systems to fail becaue the conditions are not as planned. Slopiing of a wood/timber roof was not the solution.

Despite being partially or fully underground, in the winter the home can accumulate moisture, causing more wood problems unless you have a very good air handling system. The energy saved is enough to minimize (oe eliminate) the use of interior combustion air.

There is a lot of experience and corrections out there if you look and not not just rely on a roofing/waterproofing system and associated advertising.

Dick


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

concretemasonry said:


> orson -
> 
> There is a long history of living roofs. The first had many problems and were very educational. and beneficial.
> 
> ...


You remind me that these are far older than
is being credited here.
Dad used to talk about cows grazing on roofs
in Germany and Austria, and wonder how they
water proofed them.
He observed these while on an all expenses paid
tour of Europe in the mid 1940's.:thumbsup:
They were far from new at that time.


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

Thank you for the plethora of information everyone. Guess I got my night's reading set up...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The structural and roofing issues aren't a problem. It's all the nifty stuff that goes on top of my roof that I need to investigate and I now have plenty to look over. Once again, thanks for the responses.

btw orson, it's a Garland roof system


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## jasminegreen (Jun 27, 2008)

Renegade, I wish you could come tour the roofs in downtown Chicago. Our mayor is very green; there are flowers and bike paths everywhere now. There is a new law that large buildings in Chicago have to have living roofs. Some of them are spectacular, others just functional. Mostly, there are a lot of them!


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

Funny thing Jasmine, my bro-in-law is a property manager for some of those bldgs downtown there. Marc Realty. And he's out here this week. Just yesterday we were actually discussing the green roofing and other roofing pro's and con's for their properties.

As far as my projects, I'm getting everything from Greenshield Oasis. Seems to be a good system from the drain mat to the soil.


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## orson (Nov 23, 2007)

Renegade, can you post a link for that system? 

I tried to google it and nothing relevant came up.


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

http://www.garlandco.com/greenshield.html


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## robertc65 (Apr 16, 2005)

How do you get your lawn tractor up on the roof when it needs cutting? :laughing:


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

I had a knew a guy in Kansas City that had a flat green roof on a 3 story home.

He used an air-floating powered hand mower decicated for the roof area.

He supposedly used the roof for sun bathing, but the neighbors did not appeciate it when he mowed. - his story.


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## The_Game (Jun 8, 2008)

Do you know how much those system cost?
I am just curious to know.


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

These are all generally smaller roofdecks. Averaging around $25-30/ sqFt minus vegetation. The last six I have done have ranged from 6 squares to 19 squares. Not too large a job. Obviously, the larger the job, the more the sq ft price drops.


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