# CFL's in recessed can lights



## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

I am asked more and more about the pro's and con's of CFL bulbs.

When I install 6" can lights, I provide a white baffle with a 65 watt flood light.

Do any of you have a good link? (not written by someone who prefers one over the other for monetary reasons)

Yeah, yeah, I know it's the green thing to do but I would like to learn more about the pro's and con's so I can give more valuable advice to my clients.

Any thoughts or non-biased links regarding this subject would be appreciated.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

rselectric1: My favorite site for this is GE's CFL page (I don't have a link for you but you can Google it). I like it because of all the warnings, disclaimers, different bulbs based on where - how often - how cold -etc.

We're not sold on CFL's - and when customer's ask - we simply tell them that we don't believe the CFL is ready for prime time. :no: We also tell them that we hope some improvements will be made to the technology - because there will come a time when it will be the only option.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

<deep breath> Here's my experience with CFLs. I've personally been using them for about 5 years. Once they got the color temperature (kelvin) to the right shade (no more crappy fluorescent yellow), I haven't had much issue with them....overall. There are a few exceptions though. Since you're talking about recessed lighting, here's the beef with CFLs:

*While turned off a PAR30 CFL looks fine to the eye but when lit, even though it's enclosed in a glass wrapper, you can distinctly see the twisted bulb inside.
*Warm up time particularly on the PAR style bulbs is insanely slow. In a 65° room, turned on from a completely cold start, the bulbs can take almost 1 minute to achieve full brightness. That may be an issue with a cheap China-made bulb but I have yet to see PAR style bulbs that are instant on.
*Yes, they do make a dimmable CFL PAR bulb but they are insanely expensive compared to a standard CFL or incandescent bulb. Also, if you get a dimmable CFL, they don't fully dim. They will dim to a certain point and then just shut off. There's a discernible "gap" in their dimming specs compared to incandescent.
*My big gripe with ALL CFLs is the disposal requirements. This is NOT an issue with the bulbs themselves but an issue with the distributors. I have never seen a respectable display describing the proper way to dispose of mercury-filled CFLs. Most big box stores sell standard CFL bulbs pretty cheap. However, they don't notify customers that they contain mercury and must be disposed of in a specific manner. My local lighting supplier is the only business I've seen that has any form of visible warning on CFL disposal. They even give a URL and phone number for disposing in Will County. I suspect most CFLs are thrown into people's regular trash.

So, specifically regarding CFL usage in recessed lighting....:thumbdown

What I have seen recently and think may be a better alternative (in due time) will be LED bulbs. I saw a med-base LED bulb in a standard fixture and you could not tell the difference next to an incandescent bulb in the same lamp. Sure, it cost $85 but hey, it had a 50,000 hour life span!!!! Once LED prices drop (dramatically) I think they will be the death of CFL


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

I've seen the same problems. Particularly in kitchen cans where they take a while to warm up. It's dismal when you first turn them on. Plus there is the appearance issue, the disposal issue, and the cost issue when you want something like a dimmable bulb.

I like the long life, but that's it so far.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I will keep my respose short:

- They contain mercury.

- They require alot more energy during their production.

- They cost 5 times as much.

- They cannot be dimmed unless you get the bulbs with the dimmer ballasts that cost 20 times as much...and the dimming is a very short band and does not look smooth.

- Their light looks terrible and makes reading difficult.

- We have invested sooooo much in CFLs even though LED lights are right around the corner...what a bunch of wasted resources.

By using CFLs your making alot of people rich not saving the planted, they are as green as I am communist. If I had the money I would buy every CFL on the planet and have then drop-shipped ontop of David Suzuki's house.


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## Jim M (Jun 7, 2007)

It seems ironic about everyones concern about the mercury in the CFLs given that recent fluorescent technology has probably the lowest levels in years. Also how many millions of tubes with the higher levels of mercury have been used for years with no concern for the disposal?

At least here unless you have a significant quantity you are being told to dispose of CFLs in the household trash.

There is more of an issue if one is broken in the house with the potential for mercury exposure through vapors.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

I read an interesting article on CFL's (wasn't in favour!!) One thing people have not discussed much is the increase in heating costs during the cold months (lots of those up here!). Of course some of this would be offset by cooler running in the summer, but, it is one more thing to consider.

I have used Par Style CFL's and agree with Angus on many of his points.

LED is the way of the future, once they become mass produced and mainstream.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

Jim M said:


> It seems ironic about everyones concern about the mercury in the CFLs given that recent fluorescent technology has probably the lowest levels in years. Also how many millions of tubes with the higher levels of mercury have been used for years with no concern for the disposal?
> 
> At least here unless you have a significant quantity you are being told to dispose of CFLs in the household trash.
> 
> There is more of an issue if one is broken in the house with the potential for mercury exposure through vapors.


What is really ironic is that the folks pushing CFL's are the same people that pushed for the elimination of paper bags - plastic is what we should be using. Now the dumps are full of plastic and paper is looking pretty good to them.

As I said - We're not sold on CFL's yet.

"significant quantity"? Who said this? Need definition


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## Dairylander (Oct 27, 2009)

Most Whole Foods grocery stores have a CFL recycling bin in their foyer.
I have found that CFLs don't like fixtures with motion sensors and burn out prematurely.
The cost is down to $1.50 each at Menards. I gladly pay that for bulbs that lasts 5 years.
I think they're a good "interim" technology.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Interesting "coincedence".
4 out of 5 questions I get about these lamps are pursuant to their school age children saying "you have to use bulbs-they're good for the planet"

Has someone made stepford wives out of our kids? Yikes!


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Dairylander said:


> Most Whole Foods grocery stores have a CFL recycling bin in their foyer.
> I have found that CFLs don't like fixtures with motion sensors and burn out prematurely.
> The cost is down to $1.50 each at Menards. I gladly pay that for bulbs that lasts 5 years.
> I think they're a good "interim" technology.


I use them for my home and recycle them properly when they burn out. But the question on the table is, what do you think about them for recessed lighting?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

So if I understand this right...

this isn't a good idea?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> So if I understand this right...
> 
> this isn't a good idea?


:laughing:

Actually, I think he deserves to lay on the ground and breathe it in


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

So Mike - I suppose you have a better disposal method? That's the way we dispose of ours:no:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Dairylander said:


> Most Whole Foods grocery stores have a CFL recycling bin in their foyer...........


So do they evacuate the store whenever someone breaks one?


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## DetailHandyman (Jul 21, 2008)

jarvis design said:


> I read an interesting article on CFL's (wasn't in favour!!) One thing people have not discussed much is the increase in heating costs during the cold months (lots of those up here!). Of course some of this would be offset by cooler running in the summer, but, it is one more thing to consider.




Maybe you could just leave the oven running to offset those "cool running" CFLs.


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## Dairylander (Oct 27, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So do they evacuate the store whenever someone breaks one?


The long skinny "T" style bulbs will break if you look at them wrong, but has anyone ever broken the little spiral shaped kind?
I've dropped a couple from waist height, but never broken one.


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## Ohmy (Sep 10, 2009)

I am not a fan of CFL's, but in a recessed light in a kitchen they are OK. No being able to dim the lights and the poor lighting quality is just too much to overcome in a residential setting. I prefer CFL's in garages, closets, storage rooms, and attics to traditional florescent lighting because there is no ballast or starter.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Just a little food for thought on the mercury issue. They are getting much lower counts in the current generation of bulbs and from what I hear about the "next generation". They also use less electricity to operate. In most parts of the country there is a good chance your electricity is from burning coal. That is the number one source of mercury in the environment, has been and continues to be. 

Who has not sent a 4' tube in a javelin throw to its death in the past? Lots more mercury in those and people broke em for fun when they burnt out. Suddenly everyone is in a panic about these little cfls.

I do not mind the light, and I think the quality of light is getting better. I think the made in China bulbs at the home store suck. They burn out way too fast. Bought my first cfl in the early 90's and it lasted forever. New home store ones do not last a year. Just ordered some new ones from an internet site, going to date them when I install and see if they are better.


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## Zinsco (Oct 14, 2009)

Here in California (a beautiful place to live, work and shop by the way) because of our energy conservation codes, I have installed hundreds of fluorescent cans in kitchens. I use 26 watt PL lamps and a trim with a reflective chrome finish. Yeah, takes almost a minute to warm up but they're not as bad as I initially expected. As far as dimming, these are always in the kitchen and I just don't think that's an important area for dimmers. For subdued lighting we generally install pendants over the island.
.
.
.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

ESI, How "no out of pocket expense"? Back door?

"Guaranteed" reduction in energy bill? I',ve spent tens of thousands of dollars from my roof to AC to EnergyStar appliances and still the invoices go up every year.

"Positive cash flow" In my business means more coming in than going out. Not going to happen.

I'll ignore the rest. I keep up on this stuff and live in FL. If I covered my entire roof with the latest photo-cells AND planted approx. 20 wind generators that the county would never allow, I'd still lose money.

When the return comes in 3-5 years solar will become viable same with wind. It will all come down to your location.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Tino said:


> You guys ever heard of CCFL? Their life can be more than 30,000 hrs,
> life time will not be affected by switch on and offs. And, they are dimmable.


OK-nice first post. I guess you win.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Where does one purchase these CCFLs and how much are they compared to CFLs or LED?

Please, educate me.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Tino said:


> The price is between CFL and LED. I can't post the site but you can check
> the price at 1000 bulbs.


Gee thanks alot. 

If your trade of "higher education" is a contracting trade I have not yet been made aware of, then please elaborate for us.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Good man for confessing.

However, what is your angle in posting in a contractors only site?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Yes but it's also to our benefit to worry about ROI. Yes a particular bulb may be more energy efficient than another but if it costs 5x's as much, it may not be worth it.

BTW, I checked out those bulbs and I'm saying not ready for prime time. The largest wattage was only 40W equivalent in any normal base. Also, they are over $15.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Tino said:


> Believe contractors use linear tubes, right? There are actually CCFL light tubes that save energy and can do dimming as well.
> 
> So, maybe if you know about CCFL more, you'll be interested. They can
> save energy, so might be helpful to get LEED certificate, and save your
> customers' money.


You keep telling us we need to know more about CCFL bulbs but havent provided us with any verifiable facts, or any fact whatsover.

You even said you couldn't post a site in your previous post.

My question stands-what are you doing here?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

rselectric1 said:


> My question stands-what are you doing here?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Tino said:


> And, there are 13W CCFL bulb and is equivalent to 60W incandescent bulbs.


Yes. There's _*1*_ available with no pricing. 









Thanks for the info but this is not something I believe will be a benefit to any of my customers at this time. 

...and now back to CT...


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

And my question to you still stands.


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