# Drug Testing



## mrmojo

Anyone bother with it?
Just got a thing in the mail from my insurance company saying they want tests from my three employees
myself and two of the guys have worked together off and on for probably 15 yrs,new guy has been with us since oct 2005
we do siding windows doors etc,we are all to old to do the roofing thing (i am anyway) one of the guys likes it and i give him any roofs that he wants to do
never had a comp claim in the 7 years ive been with this ins company,rates keep going up anyway but hey everythings going up but the pay :laughing: 
i know for sure that none of them can pass the test cause they smoke the evil weed but not on the job at all period.catch ya your going home for the day,i figure its none of my business what you do on your own time:thumbup: 
we have all the work we can handle,obviously quality is great been with the same little circle of builders for a long time 
guess my question is,does anyone know a way around this aside from changing ins.companys
we have a real good thing going on and theres no way i am gonna get rid of these guys 
any help suggestions would be appreciated


----------



## Scott Young

let me be the first to comment. i hate, no i loath, no i can't think of an appropriate verbage. all insurers are satan's wicked relatives. they are liars, changing the meaning of the terms of the policy, they are theives, not paying what they owe, and they are cowards, hiding behind policy/procedure.

i don't think they should have the right to micromanage our live when they have us over the barrel. we are required to have them and they take advantage of that. did i mention that i hate them.


----------



## A+Carpenter

Scott Young said:


> let me be the first to comment. i hate, no i loath, no i can't think of an appropriate verbage. all insurers are satan's wicked relatives. they are liars, changing the meaning of the terms of the policy, they are theives, not paying what they owe, and they are cowards, hiding behind policy/procedure.
> 
> i don't think they should have the right to micromanage our live when they have us over the barrel. we are required to have them and they take advantage of that. did i mention that i hate them.


Sure they have the right. They are providing you a service you requested from them. 

Think about like this and relate. If your guy was stoned out of his mind and ran a sawzall threw a wall and cut the wiring to the house and it burned down to the ground. Well your guy was killed and the homeowner was also. Medical Examiner does his work and finds drugs in system. BOOM your company is sued from the homeowners family. You pay for the rest of your life

WOULDNT THAT JUST BE BAD??????????????????????????????????


----------



## Safety-Guy

I have to agree with A+.
I work in the Electrical field and all to often watch other trades working while stoned or even better, having a liquid lunch.
Our profession is dangerous enough without anyone being under the influence. And yes I hear "what I do on my time is my buisness" and I am sorry, if you are employed you have a responsability to your employer to be 100% fit and ready for work.
We do Random testing, and post accident also, we lost one of the best electricians (and my friend)we had from a dirty test, Zero tolerance so he was gone.


----------



## Glasshousebltr

I'm afraid if I do a piss test they'll bottle it back up and ask for more.:w00t:

Bob


----------



## A+Carpenter

Safety-Guy said:


> I have to agree with A+.
> I work in the Electrical field and all to often watch other trades working while stoned or even better, having a liquid lunch.
> Our profession is dangerous enough without anyone being under the influence. And yes I hear "what I do on my time is my buisness" and I am sorry, if you are employed you have a responsability to your employer to be 100% fit and ready for work.
> We do Random testing, and post accident also, we lost one of the best electricians (and my friend)we had from a dirty test, Zero tolerance so he was gone.



Of course you would have to agree with me, Its the truth and for someone to say they hate a ins company is not somebody I would want working under me or on my house. 

I fired a guy last month for showing up at my truck with a coffee mug full of beer. You would think that the people would get wise and leave their VICE at home. 

Zero tolerance. You pop one time and and your gone or three yeared. Learned from a electical contractors policy here in Houston. I now use the same policy. 

I also have a company policy told to any greenhorn or new hire on the job. 'YOUR FIRED BEFORE YOU HIT THE GROUND"


----------



## A+Carpenter

Safety-Guy said:


> if you are employed you have a responsability to your employer to be 100% fit and ready for work


I fired him for this reason also. I showed up at the project with some drywall and I told him to unload it. 

His replie to me was this. You expect me to carry this by myself?????

5/8 Rock 

I fricken just dropped my jaw for the rest of the day in AWWW. 

Ive been packing lumber since I was 15 and stackin houses for extra cash with my buddys in high school.


----------



## maj

A+Carpenter said:


> I fired him for this reason also. I showed up at the project with some drywall and I told him to unload it.
> 
> His replie to me was this. You expect me to carry this by myself?????
> 
> 5/8 Rock
> 
> I fricken just dropped my jaw for the rest of the day in AWWW.
> 
> Ive been packing lumber since I was 15 and stackin houses for extra cash with my buddys in high school.


I'd walk away from you so fast if you said that to me. Are you serious.....5/8" rock???:no: NOT BY MYSELF :no: 

Packing lumber's a little different that stocking 5/8" sheetrock...C'mon, get real


----------



## Rich Wozny

I'd ask the frickin insurance company if all their employees have been tested, and are they all drug free! What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.


----------



## Joasis

My insurance carrier hasn't asked for this yet, but I am sure, give it time, and they will. I have no idea how I will deal with the issue...My stance is firm, do what you want on your time but never my time. I am not endorsing illegal drugs, ect., but I am not about to dictate my employees time after work. This issue to me comes back to the big brother metality, and I would rather believe in the person and self resposibility. If a guy showed up stoned or drunk on a job site, he is done, no second chances. My guys know this and respect it since they have seen my fire guys for less.


----------



## Joasis

A+Carpenter said:


> I fired him for this reason also. I showed up at the project with some drywall and I told him to unload it.
> 
> His replie to me was this. You expect me to carry this by myself?????
> 
> 5/8 Rock
> 
> I fricken just dropped my jaw for the rest of the day in AWWW.
> 
> Ive been packing lumber since I was 15 and stackin houses for extra cash with my buddys in high school.


I'm with maj here, I would have thought to myself walking away from you that I would never be a boss like that. With workmans comp rates here going through the roof, I would probably fire a guy trying this on his own since a back injury could cost me thousands...and yeah, yeah, 100 pounds of ice up four, five flights of stairs.....yeah yeah yeah...I am 45 and I would not unload 5/8 by myself...now when I was 18..sure..and I have the bad back to proove it now.


----------



## snapper21

You can go to different testing providers and find out what rate they are testing for. Most only test to fed. stand. which is 50 nannograms. To be popped at 50 you basically have to burn one on the way in in the morning.
Give your boys forewarning and tell them to lay off for a couple of days and in that couple days drink water like your dying of thirst. Just dont allow hair sampling. Blood tests are easier because if your not buzzed, it's basically not in your blood. But the above stands for urinalysis.


----------



## Safety-Guy

snapper21 said:


> You can go to different testing providers and find out what rate they are testing for. Most only test to fed. stand. which is 50 nannograms. To be popped at 50 you basically have to burn one on the way in in the morning.
> Give your boys forewarning and tell them to lay off for a couple of days and in that couple days drink water like your dying of thirst. Just dont allow hair sampling. Blood tests are easier because if your not buzzed, it's basically not in your blood. But the above stands for urinalysis.


 I hope your company profits about 12 billion a year to cover the liability you are creating.

Sounds like you may turn and look the other way so your employees think it is ok. I hope none has an accident while under the influence, they will roll quick and they will say " My boss knew" then the courts will hit YOU hard in the wallet if not criminaly. I was a Deputy for 12 years and saw many people in jail for what they knew was going on but did nothing about it.
We are firing another guy today, He had a minor injury on the job, requested medical attention, failed the test. I am sorry but I have no place for people who do things to endanger others weather it is on the job or not!!!


----------



## snapper21

What you do at home is what you do at home. What you bring to work then becomes a problem. Testing any further than 50 nannograms is delving into someones home life. I in no way implied turning a blind eye, but respecting someones home life. I myself would rather work with someone who smoked the night before than I would someone who drank the night before because of the lasting effects of alcohol. Noone is putting breathalizers at the job site though. I don't partake any longer but I will always respect someones private life until it creates a danger or hazard to someone elses. Everyone has a different tolerance level for it.


----------



## mrmojo

A+ and Saftey guy
So what yall are saying if i go to a cookout whatever,have a few beers and smoke a couple of joints with the people having it -TWO WEEKS ago
then i shoot myself with a nail gun or whatever ,get hurt at work,pee dirty that i should be fired?
i own my business because i dont want people telling me what to do and when to do it up to a certain point
I guess that my guys are always on the clock then right?Thats a bunch of overtime i owe em cause basicly what your saying,is if you want to work for me,you cant smoke snort, whatever your pleasure is while your off the clock...youare always working for me but im not paying you after you leave the job
i have serious trouble trying to follow that reasoning
sorry guys trying to think of a way of saying this diplomaticly as i can but its sheep like yall that let this country get to where it is today
i asked this question to see if there was any alteraitives to having to do this, not to start a debate about if smoking is right or wrong


----------



## mrmojo

joasis said:


> My insurance carrier hasn't asked for this yet, but I am sure, give it time, and they will. I have no idea how I will deal with the issue...My stance is firm, do what you want on your time but never my time. I am not endorsing illegal drugs, ect., but I am not about to dictate my employees time after work. This issue to me comes back to the big brother metality, and I would rather believe in the person and self resposibility. If a guy showed up stoned or drunk on a job site, he is done, no second chances. My guys know this and respect it since they have seen my fire guys for less.[/QUOTE=========================
> exactly the way i feel about this


----------



## Joasis

You know, I am not advocating smoking dope, PERIOD. I believe it should be taxed and legalized...you cannot legislate personal behavior. The larger problem or picture as I see it relates to my largest customer.

He runs an oilfield company, workover rigs..very dangerous work. Of course, they drug test like crazy, rarely catch anyone, and the dopers still manage...same way as my wife's probationers and parolees....and they get tested weekly...and only sometimes catch a hot UA. Now to my point: This same customer provides health insurance and they are going to increase the rates over 70% company wide if they don't enforce a non smoking policy. Drug testing for nicotine may be the only way to check compliance since kissing the guys would be out of the question. How far do we go as a society to regulate personal behavior? I do not allow my guys to smoke while working...they take a break at 10 and 3, and all of them smoke...they walk out to the work vehicles and leave no butts. I don't feel it is my place to regulate their behavior. Hell, I smoke too...and yes, I am down to a pack a day, trying hard to keep cutting til I quit. I know the health risks, but I won't lecture others on it, since I still believe people should be responsible for their own behavior. Same with pot....I think our big brother mentality is going to cost us all big in the future...loss of freedoms, rights, and who knows where it will end.

A little add on: My state just defeated a law requiring all ATV riders to wear helmets...at least all under 18. So to enforce this, law enforcement would have the right to enter your private property and cite your child, and you pay a fine. Ok..all well and good. If my daughter ever gets an ATV, I will make her wear a helmet...that is MY JOB AS A PARENT, not the state's job to look over my shoulder. I oppose any law that seeks to regulate behavior that harms no one EXCEPT the person involved, especially on PRIVATE PROPERTY. What is next? Having your home searched for cigarettes?


----------



## snapper21

Where I work there are still people who do it. The way the contract allows testing I think is fair to those who choose to do their own thing on their own time. You are only called to test if you were to fight, get in an accident, have to fill out an incident report, or gave enough of a lead for your sup. to authorize it through the union. You then are told to report to location of test, and given one hour to report or you fail. If caught dirty you put yourself in a program and are put on random testing. 50 nannograms can get you up to 3 days back if you don't properly hydrate yourself to clear the tissues. But most who are skating it know what it takes to keep it personal and not company business, as I've learned. You can buy your own UA reader and test yourself to find your limits. I don't think that it's at all "beating the system", but rather keeping your personal habits personal. May want to find what levels your insurance company wants you to test to, then sit down and put together a fair approach without scaring your crew off. Plenty of forums specifically related to the subject that you can thumb through.


----------



## mrmojo

thanks everyone for taking the time to reply

i have already given the heads up,i have till the 5 of june to comply so they have plenty of time
as far as advocating drug use =absolutly not, but.. i am a realist and have had these guys working for me for a long time, been fishing with them, been to all their houses for cookouts and stuff they have all been to my house met my wife and such so we have a real good thing going on
i was just wondering if pretty much everyone ins. nowadays was requiring that or what


----------



## vtgaetano

A+Carpenter said:


> Think about like this and relate. If your guy was stoned out of his mind and ran a sawzall threw a wall and cut the wiring to the house and it burned down to the ground. Well your guy was killed and the homeowner was also. Medical Examiner does his work and finds drugs in system. BOOM your company is sued from the homeowners family. You pay for the rest of your life
> 
> WOULDNT THAT JUST BE BAD??????????????????????????????????


Holy extreme scenario!!!!!! They guy said they had all been there for a long time and good at what they do. I HIGHLY doubt they're going to cut through walls and wires and homeowners. Chill out and go burn one down.


----------



## PipeGuy

Safety-Guy said:


> ...Currently we are working on a program where each year we give one project manager and one foreman a new truck, (not a company truck, it will be titled in their name) should their jobsites follow safety rules and use safe work practices.


Now that is very cool. I've been thinking about how I could afford to gift my foremen their company trucks (maybe sell at an extreme discount) after a certain amount of years or miles and that just might be the tag line...safe work site = the truck is yours to keep. If you don't mind, please either post or PM me your thoughts on what kind of guidleines will be used to determine eligibility.


----------



## Shamrock

Woz the Painter said:


> Not one of you safety freaks has addressed the fact that alcohol occurs naturally in some foods, many people take doctor prescribed medication which can create hazards, not to mention workers who can be sleep deprived, by working way too many hours, because a GC demands jobs completed with an unrealistic schedule. Veiwing safety films umpteen times to please some insurance co., does nothing to promote true safety on a job. As far as safety directors, this has become a cottage industry unto itself. And as far as OSHA goes, there have been numerous exposes on the litany of violations that were found in their headquarters in Wash. D.C.


You seem to feel that the exceptions should mandate the rules. Yes alcohol occurs naturally in some foods but it is the very rare exception who actually becomes intoxicated by this. Yes many people take prescription medication but I've yet to see a bottle that doesn't have a warning lable on it if the medication could have a side effect that hampers a person judgement/ability's while he is working. Too many hours, unrealistic expectations, lack of sleep...all exceptions to what would be considered normal working conditions. OSHA may not be perfect but I'd wager they've been responsible for saving more lives than alcohol has in the work place


----------



## Rich Wozny

Again.... a bunch of double talk, without answering any specific questions!


----------



## Safety-Guy

I beleive we are not talking about what is found in food. we are talking about consumption, ingestion, inhalation of substances that are ment to alter the mind in one form or another. 

Safety saves lives, if you disagree then I feel sorry for your employees. I like being part of a "family" that cares enough to spend money on making sure I go home every night in one piece, with eyesight, and hearing.

For a construction to acheive maxium profitability you need 3 things
1. Productivity
2. Quality
3. Safety
All 3 should be treated equal. none being above the others. All jobs can be done On time, With the quality needed, and with all workers in one piece.


And Woz,
If an employee is on medication that has restrictions they are instructed to let us know of this and we put them in an alternative work program for them that ensures that they receive their full pay and hours. Sure it is "light" duty, but they are not put in a position where the medication becomes a hazard.

Next Question please


----------



## AAPaint

ProWallGuy said:


> AA, I bet your tune would change if:
> 
> A. an employee falls off a ladder, breaks his (leg, back, arm, neck, etc) and sues you or your WC
> B. an employee slips and falls inside a house and splashes paint/stain on a very expensive (chair, entertainment center, mural, vase, etc) and you end up paying for it
> C. an employee sets/spots a ladder for another employee/you and it slips and injures the person on the ladder
> D. an employee has an accident on the _way home_ from _your jobsite_ and injures/kills someone or himself.
> 
> And you/they find out the suspect employee was buzzed/stoned/lit up/drunk/whatever at _your jobsite_ during above-stated incidents, then you are working for someone else for a very looooooong time. Lawyers will eat you up.
> 
> The list could go on and on. Let go of your 'it's nobody's business what we do with our bodies' mentality, and face the reality of today's society. You should be the ALPHA male in your wolf pack, and it's time to start protecting that status. Maybe I agree with your opinions on this, maybe I don't. I doubt any of us here set the rules for the game, but if you don't play by them, the odds of losing said game are very high.
> 
> I thought the same as you when I started out, then realized that no one but me cares about me.


My point is, aside from alcohol, they can NOT test to see if the person actually was under the influence at the time. My biggest problem is the grey area. There is too much grey area with issues like these, but we continue to regulate these grey areas with more and more laws and rules....Everyone here knows damn well there's no telling if the person smoked, snorted, or injected something three weeks ago or 10 minutes ago. 

Let's say the person DID in fact take some drugs, maybe even just the night before, and they have an accident on the job...while under no influence of said drugs. This person loses absolutely every right to medical care and loses their job to boot. It's a case of making someone guilty and punishing them when in fact they have what would otherwise be a legitimate case for workmans comp. 

I'm not advocating anything, and yes, I'm very concerned for my business and employees, but....I have this moronic thing I do. It's called thinking, and I can't stop doing it....silly, I know. My argument isn't to give people a reason to use drugs...just to give the people the choice that a free society should allow for. What someone does to their own person, on their own time is something we should all see as sacred. You start looking past that, and you start treading freedoms left and right. Simple point. Insurance companies purposely look deeper with their drug tests because they know this will save them from paying out one red cent......makes no matter if the person is under the influence on the job or not. It's a way for them to profit, while an injured worker suffers...NICE!


----------



## Safety-Guy

Ok here are a few points to ponder concerning a "Drug Free Workplace"

Employers with successful drug-free workplace programs report decreases in absenteeism, accidents, downtime, turnover, and theft; increases in productivity; and overall improved morale. 


Employers with longstanding programs report better health status among many employees and family members and decreased use of medical benefits. 

Some organizations with drug-free workplace programs qualify for incentives, for example, decreased premium costs for certain kinds of insurance, such as Workers’ Compensation. 


Employers find that employees, employee representatives, and unions often welcome drug-free workplace programs. If you don’t have a program, your employees may be wondering why. 


Employers with drug-free workplace programs find that current users of alcohol and other drugs prefer organizations that do not have such programs.


----------



## Joasis

I won't get in the safety debate. I believe in good equipment, and safe practices. I draw the line at hard hats when we are on a roof....

My objection is based on personal liberties and the erosion of same. I currently employ 4 guys, and have a sub contractor with 3 that work only for me. I know everyone, and I see them every day on every jobsite. I am my first line of defense, and my guys know, its an iron clad rule....stoned or drunk, your out, no second chances...show up hungover, we will laugh at you and try to make your head hurt, and keep you off the roofs or anything up high..and then the warning: Better be Saturday night next time and be sick and hungover on your time and not mine. Where I draw the line is trying to regulate behavior off the clock. Maybe it is a poor position to be in, I will accept the risk, but I refuse to be an overall part of the big brother mentality. 

As a closing note to this, I have one guy who is a "user" and recreational at that. I have never seen a problem and I haven't asked, but I bet he quit a few years back anyway...in Oklahoma, possesion of more then 1/4 of an ounce is automatically classified as poss. with intent to distribute...2 to life...no kidding! Oklahoma has the most severe penalties in the US for a first offense...no misdemeanors here.


----------



## Safety-Guy

joasis said:


> my guys know, its an iron clad rule....stoned or drunk, your out, no second chances...show up hungover, we will laugh at you and try to make your head hurt, and keep you off the roofs or anything up high..and then the warning: Better be Saturday night next time and be sick and hungover on your time and not mine.


:thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup:


----------



## Rich Wozny

Safety-Guy.... I could come out to any of your job sites and find numerous safety violations, your safety harang does nothing to make a job site safer. You've locked into a cottage industry, largely supported by the insurance industry, who doesn't know their ass from a whole in the ground.


----------



## Safety-Guy

Bet your extention cords are missing the ground pins.
Come on down Woz, I will take you to every Jobsite. Are there violations, yes. Are they addressed YES, It is called a safety program. That is why inspections are a vital part of any safety program. Not only do I address safety issues with my workers, I address them with the General contractor.

Remember WOZ, 29CFR1926 Subpart K also applies to you and your aluminum ladder.


----------



## Joasis

I'll take another shot at this from my perspective: What I feel like is at stake is personal freedoms. I don't have the one size fits all answer, but I don't wish to be part of the problem. I enjoy what I do, but if I ran a company large enough to need an employee manual and drug testing...I doubt it would be fun then. 

Every attempt in history to regulate morality and behavoir have failed, big time. Drug testing catches some users..I bet there are lots more who get away with it since there are products available to "clean" the body before the UA. My wife, who is a probation and parole officer, fights this problem constantly. The only way they get an accurate result is a surprise visit first thing in the morning. Now as far as I am concerned, drug testing felons is acceptable, just very inefective. 

So, where would our forum members draw the line on how far we regulate morality? Are we coming to a time when law enforcement will randomly drug test the general population? I can think of lots of issues over things I personally wouldn't participate in, but I believe we should protect our freedoms and rights over. Suppose I were a highly religious person, would I have the right to tell my employees not to read Penthouse magazine or watch dirtly movies? Heck, they may look at the pictures and come to work daydreaming about a girl and step right off a ladder.......


----------



## maj

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: 

Ok joasis........ I'm guilty!!!!!! Don't tell the wife that's why I fell though.:whistling


----------



## Safety-Guy

Everyone has choices to make in their life. The choices they make form what they are, who they are and what they do with their life. This is a free country and I choose not to work with people whom participate in "their Time" activities that is the subject of this thread. That is my choice, my freedom. If you fail to see the advantages of this then that is your choice.
So continue on with the path you are on. Take your chances, roll the dice.
I will continue on working, making sure that our employees are safe and able to support their families. As I will support mine. I enjoy my trips to Alaska, Caribbean, and other places in this great country to much not to worry about my safety.
If you beleive Safety works :thumbsup: Great, if not, That is a choice you made and should an accident occur due to unsafe practices I will never say I told you so, :jester: You will know.


----------



## Joasis

Safety-Guy said:


> Everyone has choices to make in their life. The choices they make form what they are, who they are and what they do with their life. This is a free country and I choose not to work with people whom participate in "their Time" activities that is the subject of this thread. That is my choice, my freedom. If you fail to see the advantages of this then that is your choice.
> 
> *My point exactly Safety Guy, it IS all about choice. I didn't say what my own standards are, you are assuming incorrectly that I am endorsing the after hours activity. I stated clearly what happens to any guy working for me who brings it to work. I also have no tolerance for bullying or harrassment, being late, no shows, ect. *
> 
> Since it is estimated that 10% of the population "partakes" in illegal substance abuse, and 25% drink regularly, then do you really KNOW who is putting your safety program at risk?
> 
> *I will state it again, clearly, and then back out of this one. I will not attempt to regulate my employees after hours activities...I will concern myself only with what goes on in the workplace.*
> I do not socialize with my guys after work either. I belive there needs to be a professional distance to those who work for you.
> 
> So continue on with the path you are on. Take your chances, roll the dice.
> I will continue on working, making sure that our employees are safe and able to support their families. As I will support mine. I enjoy my trips to Alaska, Caribbean, and other places in this great country to much not to worry about my safety.
> If you beleive Safety works :thumbsup: Great, if not, That is a choice you made and should an accident occur due to unsafe practices I will never say I told you so, :jester: You will know.


*We take all reasonable precautions for safety.* This issue is about drug testing, and again, I am my own first line of defense. I know my foreman and my sub contractor won't put up with it either, since we are doing this for money, not for practice...and we get rid of slackers because they cost all of us..so stoning at work would cost us.


----------



## realpurty2

AAPaint said:


> Everyone here knows damn well there's no telling if the person smoked, snorted, or injected something three weeks ago or 10 minutes ago.
> 
> Let's say the person DID in fact take some drugs, maybe even just the night before, and they have an accident on the job...while under no influence of said drugs. This person loses absolutely every right to medical care and loses their job to boot. It's a case of making someone guilty and punishing them when in fact they have what would otherwise be a legitimate case for workmans comp.
> 
> My argument isn't to give people a reason to use drugs...just to give the people the choice that a free society should allow for. What someone does to their own person, on their own time is something we should all see as sacred.


This is one of those times when I know I should keep my mouth shut and choose not to. AA, I just wanted to offer some factual info to help you base your own decisions on. 

As for not being able to tell if someone used the drug 10 mins or 10 days ago, having been a nurse for over 15yrs and executed many a test in my day, I can tell you with absolute certainty that the test do show when the drug was ingested based on the level of concentration in the bloodstream The higher the concentration the less time that has elapsed since it's ingestion. (or the higher quanity and frequency of use also) Pot has 421 different chemicals..61 of them are unique to pot and not found anywhere else in anything you consume (meaning the body can't deal with them since it has no natural defense from past exposure) , cocaine and alcohol only have one, so pot hangs around longer in your system than any drug out there, it's harder to break down. It's fat soluable so it seeks out organs to bind too, mainly the brain and heart. If it's in your bloodstream, in your tissues, in your brain and heart... for weeks at a time from one use only.. it's still able to produce negative effects that could affect performance. The "high" wears off quickly, but the effects such as memory impairment, visual accuity, and clear judgement linger until it's completely out of your body. If someone smoked three weeks ago and didn't touch it again... it would still be weeks or months before they would be totally clean and effect free. Alcohol, pills, and cocaine break down faster because they are less complex molecules. They clear your bloodstream faster and the effects do not linger as long. (No one assume I'm saying to do those instead or that they are ok on a jobsite, just stating documented facts about pot since it seems to be more tolerated than others)

I believe in civil liberties, but I also highly promote jobsite safety. Drugs are not tolerated at our company at all... on the site or weeks before for the reasons I mentioned above. Should you or anyone else have the right to do them on your own time? If you choose, I can't stop you but it doesn't mean I have to like it. Should I be forced into employing someone who uses drugs on their own personal time, and be subjected to the risk involved due to their personal choice. Absolutely not. Doing it is the employee's choice, not employing them is the business owner's choice.


----------



## PipeGuy

joasis said:


> I won't get in the safety debate.
> 
> What I feel like is at stake is personal freedoms...
> 
> Every attempt in history to regulate morality and behavoir have failed, big time...So, where would our forum members draw the line on how far we regulate morality?
> 
> Are we coming to a time when law enforcement will randomly drug test the general population?
> 
> Suppose I were a highly religious person, would I have the right to tell my employees not to read Penthouse magazine or watch dirtly movies?Heck, they may look at the pictures and come to work daydreaming about a girl and step right off a ladder.......


WARNING WILL ROBINSON!! MALODOROUS BOVINE DIGESTIVE WASTE DETECTED!

Dude, this thread IS a safety debate and shouldn't be a broad exchange of political opinion.

Laws (regulations) are innappropriate without a sound underpinning in morality. We all would agree that a law authorizing slavery would be a moral outrage and thus imappropriate.
It's morally proper for law to provide for protection of life and limb in the workplace. It wouldn't be morally proper if the law provided that employers could conduct operations without providing for protection of life and limb or if the law just otherwise ignored the reality that in a free market, the quest for profits invariably puts life and limb at risk to some degree or another.
Why is it so hard for you to embrace the idea that safety regulations far and away protect your personal freedoms more so than they detract from them. Without them you'd have risks imposed upon you that, in the abscence of quitting a job, you'd otherwise have no capacity to manage.

Do I need risk sacrificing my life or limb so that someone elses 'right' to drink 15 beers or smoke a couple bowls at night goes unencumbered. What's the consequence to the user when their actions get someone hurt or killed? They get fired? They get sued? Big deal...I'm mamed or dead.


----------



## AAPaint

realpurty2 said:


> This is one of those times when I know I should keep my mouth shut and choose not to. AA, I just wanted to offer some factual info to help you base your own decisions on.
> 
> As for not being able to tell if someone used the drug 10 mins or 10 days ago, having been a nurse for over 15yrs and executed many a test in my day, I can tell you with absolute certainty that the test do show when the drug was ingested based on the level of concentration in the bloodstream The higher the concentration the less time that has elapsed since it's ingestion. (or the higher quanity and frequency of use also) Pot has 421 different chemicals..61 of them are unique to pot and not found anywhere else in anything you consume (meaning the body can't deal with them since it has no natural defense from past exposure) , cocaine and alcohol only have one, so pot hangs around longer in your system than any drug out there, it's harder to break down. It's fat soluable so it seeks out organs to bind too, mainly the brain and heart. If it's in your bloodstream, in your tissues, in your brain and heart... for weeks at a time from one use only.. it's still able to produce negative effects that could affect performance. The "high" wears off quickly, but the effects such as memory impairment, visual accuity, and clear judgement linger until it's completely out of your body. If someone smoked three weeks ago and didn't touch it again... it would still be weeks or months before they would be totally clean and effect free. Alcohol, pills, and cocaine break down faster because they are less complex molecules. They clear your bloodstream faster and the effects do not linger as long. (No one assume I'm saying to do those instead or that they are ok on a jobsite, just stating documented facts about pot since it seems to be more tolerated than others)
> 
> I believe in civil liberties, but I also highly promote jobsite safety. Drugs are not tolerated at our company at all... on the site or weeks before for the reasons I mentioned above. Should you or anyone else have the right to do them on your own time? If you choose, I can't stop you but it doesn't mean I have to like it. Should I be forced into employing someone who uses drugs on their own personal time, and be subjected to the risk involved due to their personal choice. Absolutely not. Doing it is the employee's choice, not employing them is the business owner's choice.



Now that's just propoganda at it's best. The effects of cannabis wear off in a few hours, just like anything else. There is absolutely no scientific evidence that cannabis causes long drawn out effects just because portions of it are in your blood stream. As a nurse, you should know this to be true. There are no residual effects from cannabis what so ever. The cannibinoids that cause the "buzz" effect last only a few hours at best. 

I understand you don't want any drug users within your company, but please don't spew false propoganda. I'm sure you don't have a problem with your employees drinking alcohol after work where the effects can last far into the next day......alcohol is legal, so it's ok!!! :thumbsup:


----------



## Joasis

PipeGuy said:


> Dude, this thread IS a safety debate and shouldn't be a broad exchange of political opinion.
> 
> Laws (regulations) are innappropriate without a sound underpinning in morality. We all would agree that a law authorizing slavery would be a moral outrage and thus imappropriate.
> It's morally proper for law to provide for protection of life and limb in the workplace. It wouldn't be morally proper if the law provided that employers could conduct operations without providing for protection of life and limb or if the law just otherwise ignored the reality that in a free market, the quest for profits invariably puts life and limb at risk to some degree or another.
> Why is it so hard for you to embrace the idea that safety regulations far and away protect your personal freedoms more so than they detract from them. Without them you'd have risks imposed upon you that, in the abscence of quitting a job, you'd otherwise have no capacity to manage.
> 
> Do I need risk sacrificing my life or limb so that someone elses 'right' to drink 15 beers or smoke a couple bowls at night goes unencumbered. What's the consequence to the user when their actions get someone hurt or killed? They get fired? They get sued? Big deal...I'm mamed or dead.


Small town here, small town values. I respect all other opinions here. The original thread had to do with drug testing and some of you guys mandate it, some don't. I hope my insurance carrier won't, but it will come, I am sure. I am also sure that I will be forced to comply or shut the company down. I don't agree with it, as stated above. We are already facing WC rates going to 86% of wages based on our red iron erection..which is why I will try to move into residential construction only, where the rate is a measly 16%. Unemployment runs 6% of wages, and insurance is now costing me $9000 a year for coverage that is questionable, just for my little company. I have never had a claim, never had a lost time accident, and no one has drawn unemployment benifits from me, and the rates keep going up.

Several years ago, I owned 3 big rigs, OTR trucking, and the companies I leased to required drug testing. No big deal, and I could see the need for it. In my case, in my construction field, I don't see it, and won't agree to it til it is literally forced on me. 

Sorry for the digression into the broader topic, but I always avoid tunnel vision personally. Something like can't see the forest for the trees. No offense to anyone intended.


----------



## mrmojo

realpurty2 said:


> This is one of those times when I know I should keep my mouth shut and choose not to. AA, I just wanted to offer some factual info to help you base your own decisions on.
> 
> As for not being able to tell if someone used the drug 10 mins or 10 days ago, having been a nurse for over 15yrs and executed many a test in my day, I can tell you with absolute certainty that the test do show when the drug was ingestedns to bind too, mainly the brain and heart. If it's in your bloodstream, in your tissues, in your brain and heart... for weeks at a time from one use only.. it's still able to produce negative effects that could affect performance. The "high" wears off quickly, but the effects such as memory impairment, visual accuity, and clear judgement linger until it's completely out of your body. If someone smoked three weeks ago and didn't touch it again... it would still be weeks or months before they would be totally clean and effect free. drugs are not tolerated at our company at all... on the site or weeks before for the reasons I mentioned above. Should you or anyone else have the right to do them on your own time? If you choose, I can't stop you but it doesn't mean I have to like it. Should I be forced into employing someone who uses drugs on their own personal time, and be subjected to the risk involved due to their personal choice.
> real purty your are supposed to put a smiley up when your just jokin so every one will know it
> if you really beleive thise


----------



## Glasshousebltr

It's bouncing off pure, must be the corn.:w00t:

Bob


----------



## Rich Wozny

Safety-Guy said:


> Bet your extention cords are missing the ground pins.
> Come on down Woz, I will take you to every Jobsite. Are there violations, yes. Are they addressed YES, It is called a safety program. That is why inspections are a vital part of any safety program. Not only do I address safety issues with my workers, I address them with the General contractor.
> 
> Remember WOZ, 29CFR1926 Subpart K also applies to you and your aluminum ladder.


My cords are all GFI and have ground pins, ladders are all wood or fiberglass. I didn't need some insurance company fluzie to tell me what equipment to buy!


----------



## Safety-Guy

Woz the Painter said:


> My cords are all GFI and have ground pins, ladders are all wood or fiberglass. I didn't need some insurance company fluzie to tell me what equipment to buy!


 To that I give you a big :thumbsup:, And the offer still stands, come on down to Orlando, write it off as a safety seminar( Stick it to the man), and I will take you to some jobsites, and even spend a day at Universal Orlando ( I work there part time).
Here in Central Florida, we are the fastest growing area in the country, we are right up there with injuries and death. OSHA makes it a point to hit not only Commercial sites but I have seen several residential subs get hefty fines with surprise inspections.
Even had the roofers fined on one site for workers on the roof with no fall protection back in my foreman days. I had crews in the same houses but thatnks to the safety stuff, we did not receive any violations.


----------



## realpurty2

lol, see I told you I should have kept my mouth shut. I've been told I need a tougher skin to fit in with you big burly construction dudes so I'm trying it out here.  

The bovine matter as you so elequently put it, is what is taught to anyone in the healthcare field. I didn't create it. It's the "industry standard" tried and tested with scientific fact. It seems that the only supporting argument that a user has is based on opinion not testing. Of course, that opinion is clouded by the drugs in their system, therefore altering the test. 

The only thing I would say on a personal side... If your braincells aren't too far gone, pick up a dictionary and look up Justification and Rationalization because that's exactly what all users do to excuse their incorrect and illegal behavior. 

( And if your not too stoned to understand the post... it was said IN HUMOR simply to get a rise out of you since you neandrethals seem to enjoy a good fight. Hey.. look, I even resorted to name calling.. hehe I might be a contractor yet! )
 

Do your thing, smoke your weed, just stay off my jobsites, my highways, and away from anyone but yourself so that you don't endanger the sober people of the world.


----------



## Safety-Guy

realpurty2 said:


> lol, see I told you I should have kept my mouth shut. I've been told I need a tougher skin to fit in with you big burly construction dudes so I'm trying it out here.


I'm only 6'5" 270lbs :boxing: 

oh wait I'm on your side

And to start a new trend.
Talking on a cell phone increases your chances of an accident 400%, equal to driving under the influence


----------



## Rich Wozny

Safety-Guy said:


> To that I give you a big :thumbsup:, And the offer still stands, come on down to Orlando, write it off as a safety seminar( Stick it to the man), and I will take you to some jobsites, and even spend a day at Universal Orlando ( I work there part time).
> Here in Central Florida, we are the fastest growing area in the country, we are right up there with injuries and death. OSHA makes it a point to hit not only Commercial sites but I have seen several residential subs get hefty fines with surprise inspections.
> Even had the roofers fined on one site for workers on the roof with no fall protection back in my foreman days. I had crews in the same houses but thatnks to the safety stuff, we did not receive any violations.


Thanks for the offer, but the temp and humidity in Fla. this time of year is not appealing to me. As for Universal, are you sure those rides are safe? Seems like Disney's moon ride is dropping them like flies!


----------



## Safety-Guy

Woz the Painter said:


> Thanks for the offer, but the temp and humidity in Fla. this time of year is not appealing to me. As for Universal, are you sure those rides are safe? Seems like Disney's moon ride is dropping them like flies!


Well I have lived here all my life, the heat was not to bad till everyone started moving down here, I can't wait for Friday, I'm headed to Alaska for some fishing!!! And I think you found out why I work for Universal, LOL the rides are safer, I work there as an actor, But they do have a safety position open mmmmmmmmm


----------



## maj

Well, I've tried to avoid this one as long as I can, but it is Sunday and have a little more time to sit here and type, so here goes........

This thread has really been personal and heartbreaking for me to follow.. Many (and I mean many) years ago I got involved pretty deep with illegal substances. I did everything except needles, at least I was smart enogh to avoid that!!!!! It may seem at some times I don't make sense and kind of hard to follow my posts..... I honestly believe I toasted some brain cells from all the **** I did, because I really was a smart student in high school. I've been in trouble with the law a couple of times (several weekends in jail).Well, enough about me, I lived to tell about it..... I had a first cousin, brilliant man, great personality.. He got into heavy drug & alcohol usage. After 20 some years of being an addict, he passed on.:sad: My best man when I got married 20 years ago, blew his head off last year.:sad: Never married, just lived alone all his life and I believe the drugs & alcohol had his mind so clouded that he thought it would be best to just leave this life. Another cousin drank himself to death about 15 years ago. There are several other close friends & relatives I have lost from this place because of drug & alcohol that I could go on, but you all get the point.

About 15 years ago while still employed as a lead carpenter, I realized I needed to change my way of PERSONAL life habits. I think we all agree that mind altering substances (including alcohol) will not be tolerated on the jobsite.:thumbup: While I mostly agree with joasis, woz, AA, & others, that what a person does on his/her personal time should not matter to the employer and should be no reason for not hiring someone or for firing someone. 

I also will stand behind realpurty's statement on the lasting effects of pot..... Although she has stated more medical related observations from being a nurse, I will state my observations from being a user.........My drug of choice was cocaine.. Maryjane would just slow me down and mellow me out so much I didn't want to do anything but lay around and look at the ceiling. Maryjane on the job (yes, I'm guilty) made me misserable!! While on the nose candy, I got **** done baby. I could party all night and half the next day, crash for 4 hours then tap another keg, take another snort. I will say I never snorted on the job nor before any working days. But I WILL tell you I was under the influence for several days, and now when I look back I just thank my Lord He didn't give up on me..My brother-in-law is a heavy pot smoker yet to this day. He grows his own, mainly for personal use, he has to have it every single day in order to function. He never really has had a job, he just kind of wheels & deals junk. Now I know that since I first met him 20 years ago to this day, the effects of maryjane have definitely taken their toll.

To say that people who partake in mind altering substances on their free time does not affect the workplace, in my opinion, is ignorance. I don't have any facts or scientific proof, only my personal experiences. I also can't say that I was anymore dangerous or more prone to cause an accident then as I am now. But I do know I did more daring & stupid things while under the influence than I do now.

Well, I didn't really want to ramble on like this, and delve into personal tragedies, but I felt compelled at this point....


----------



## Safety-Guy

maj
We use personal experiences extensively in our orentation. Most from fellow employees who forgave safety for the sake of getting the job done quicker. Your story, as sad as it is does have a happy ending, you are still with us!!!
I commend you opening up to share your story, and I would like your permission to print it out for some of my employees ( Ok I don't own the company but I am responsable for all of their safety)
:thumbup: for facing the demon and not giving in.


----------



## George Z

All medical or empirical evidence aside,
Puting your brain on pause for signifficant periods of time,
will affect its growth.

If you don't use it you lose it.

As far as safety goes, I would rather err on the side of caution.
These are human beings climbing our ladders, scaffolding etc.
I would rather be sure about who I am sending up there.
AA, I agree about the motives of the insurance companies
but that has nothing to do with the safety issue.


----------



## AAPaint

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9700958&dopt=Abstract


They teach propoganda in med school too......there are no residual effects of cannabis. It's like the story they tell everyone in school..."young man on acid, thought he could fly, jumped out of a window"...

And, one last time for the record...I don't advocate the use of any mind altering substances. (for those who missed it) I just don't agree with persecuting anyone for what they do to themselves, period, point blank.

Everyone avoids the alcohol issue, but it is by far one of the deadliest drugs known to man, yet it's socially acceptable. Your employees can drink themselves to sleep every night and come to work hungover every day without worry of any recourse. I'm betting 90% or better of the people arguing this topic drink the deadly firewater....


----------



## ProWallGuy

AAPaint said:


> ......there are no residual effects of cannabis.


Tell that to my short-term memory.
Oh look, a chicken.


----------



## mrmojo

uhhh i didnt start this thread to debate drug use good or bad it was more for the advice from someone that was in the same insurance worker thing maybe could steer me in a good direction
i absolutely think my private life is seperate from my work life,or anyone elses
saftey guy that cut and paste osha rules and regs are a good idea, cluttered up by some one that figured a way to make money..sounds like you have read a few books but never have had to wopk under the crazy nitpickin subsections of line b followed by rule #199345
myself i would rather work with a stoner than a drunk!
i for the most part enjoy my work. we are not a big company but we laugh and get the job done 
its easier to type than go back to my first post= we do mostly siding and windows most times new construction some times residental
single story for the most part
whoever said about the ground pins:no: 
cmon we are grown here i for sure dont need someone saving me from myself
i own and ride 2 harleys,one for 27 yrs the other 16 think i wear a helmet?
appreciate the idea(not ) that some folks think they know whats good for me. but i am hard headed and have to learn for myself


----------



## Shamrock

AAPaint said:


> Everyone avoids the alcohol issue, but it is by far one of the deadliest drugs known to man, yet it's socially acceptable. Your employees can drink themselves to sleep every night and come to work hungover every day without worry of any recourse. I'm betting 90% or better of the people arguing this topic drink the deadly firewater....


Well you can count me in that less than 10 percent who don't. I agree that alcohol is by far the worst though I don't believe those who use it consistantly like you describe are any less likely to suffer some work related problems on the job site. Work quality and production is generally sub standard from my experience. Personally I don't care what a person does on their own time until it has some adverse effect on how they function and perform when their on my time (my past life was as a manager for world wide air freight company with over 250 people under my direction...substance abuse problems did not go un-noticed).


----------



## tigwired

Have to do a test for most shutdown work these days, the problem with it is that pot smokers take weeks to clear their system and crack or herion users are clean in days, I personally would rather have a pot head working near me than a crack head, preferrably neither but the drug use is mighty prevelant out there


----------



## AAPaint

Those that aren't on something illegal are either on alcohol or prescribed narcotics...and THAT is scary.


----------



## Shamrock

AAPaint said:


> Those that aren't on something illegal are either on alcohol or prescribed narcotics...and THAT is scary.


I wish I could argue with that but unfortunately there's a lot of truth to it. It's taken me alot of years to weed (oh...pun) thru the riff raff and find a crew of guys who don't abuse themselves with toxics. Shame too...seen alot of good craftsmen barely surviving when they have the talent to be raking the cash in with their work.:sad:


----------



## DaveH

It's the way of the world now. If you don't like it fight it within the courts. If not you take it in the shorts!


----------



## TempestV

maj said:


> My brother-in-law is a heavy pot smoker yet to this day. He grows his own, mainly for personal use, he has to have it every single day in order to function. He never really has had a job, he just kind of wheels & deals junk. Now I know that since I first met him 20 years ago to this day, the effects of maryjane have definitely taken their toll.


I've seen people do the same thing with alcohol. Does that mean that all alcohol use is bad? Certainly, either one at work is bad, and I've seen the affects of both. However, when the levels of use are matched, I don't think pot is any worse than alcohol. In other words, a guy that is burned out from smoking pot like a chimney is just as bad as a guy that spends every day recovering from last night's hangover. By the same token, someone that uses either in moderation will probably be fine.
Personally, I don't smoke pot, and I rarely drink alcohol, and almost never drink to the point of being really drunk. However, I know a lot of very good people that happen to smoke pot on their time, and that's their choice.


----------



## Crawdad

I think AA nailed it, with this post...


AAPaint said:


> That is just another bull way for insurance providers to get out of paying medical care they know full well they should be held responsible for. The tests can't prove if the person was under the influence when anything happened...this very thing makes the whole deal a sham.


----------



## threaderman

What people decide to do in thier own home is thier own business.All those people pointing fingers at those smoking a little herb,the high and mightys,all have thier own monsters ,maybe thier thiefs,or molesters,or illegal gamblers,or cheating on thier spouses,EVERYONE has vices/weaknesses,whether they act them out or not.


----------



## WarnerConstInc.

pass the bong you guys are strssing me out with this thing that turned into the battle of the safety Nazi's I thinkd I might be sitting to close to the screen oh my eyes, wow, personal time is just that, but dont be wasting my time cause you are coming to work wasted. Nuff said


----------



## MetalFab

There seems to be alot of stereotyping going on here. Potsmoker is labeled "potsmoker". When everyone knows that different substances affect different people differently. I have found in my own experience that most of the ones that are always cursing and putting down even the occasional off duty toker are secretly taking prescription meds.Then there are those who are under no influence of any substance at all that are clumsier, goofier and the most absent minded(granted these are usually not at a jobsite). Like the old saying "it takes all kinds to make this world go 'round".

I do not condone substance abuse in the workplace at all, BUT on your own time is okay if you have the self control to stay within your own boundries. Also, I didn't hear of any of the positive effects of THC. I am sure someone will shoot me down with "there are none!". Well, they are prob. a non user never had and therefore- how would they know? Or just closed minded. So go ahead and fire ayway knowing that most people already have their own opinions on the matter that will not be swayed by any others rantings. By the way, I am aware of the far more numerous bad effects.

Getting back to the original question Mrmojo, I think that you may be stuck like a rock in a hard place. I do know of contractors that subcontract out to each guy working for them, making each liable for his own insurance. It may have its advantages. I am sure there are other options.


----------



## Putty Truck

Quality beats quantity any day.

What I hate are those dopers who steal. I mean, when is the last time you saw a non-doper steal?

(Plumbers who do dope don't stay plumbers for long.)


----------

