# tyvek and mortar



## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

Anyone hear anything about tyvek disintegrating after awhile from contact with mortar?


----------



## BrickSetter (Apr 19, 2012)

never heard of tyvek being affected from mortar but thats just me. and to me the practice seems ok as long as the staples and nails where the right length i think it specs to use 1.5".

Hope it helps.


----------



## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

Don't remember the details...but yes tyvek and mortar are a no no...somebody will enlighten you further in a minute.


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

My understanding is that mortar bonded to any WRB, whether it's Tyvek, tar paper or whatever, will affect its ability to hold out moisture. IME, two layers are used. The outer layer is a bond breaker and the underlying layer is the effective moisture barrier.


----------



## BrickSetter (Apr 19, 2012)

i work commercial in canada and i do alot of tyvek and i have never put on more then on layer. i have seem whole buildings done in the 3-4mm tar membrane. but no double layers.


----------



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Tyvek can and does disintegrate on occasion as I've seen it with my own eyes - not sure if it's a reaction to what's sitting on it, under it or bleeding through it. I do know cedar tannins and Tyvek don't get along.

That lath fastening schedule wouldn't fly around here in most towns that are vigilant in their inspections as in most cases it's 2 layers grade D paper or equiv. and 1 1/4" on up galvanized nails w/ washers 8" O.C. on the stud line. No field fastening allowed which would penetrate the sheathing and allow potential condensation issues with exposed nail tips inside the cavity

Here a shot of the washers I use to meet code...


----------



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

forgot the photo


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Staples on lathe, brilliant!


----------



## BrickSetter (Apr 19, 2012)

You may think im joking but we are aloud to us staples they are a specific kind of staple made for that application.


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*Tyvek*

The more i read in trade publications ( J.L.C., FINE HOME BUILDING, MASONRY CONSTRUCTION, MASONRY EDGE etc) The more i'am glad i never used 1 sq. ft. of it ever. Yes i read it is adversely compromised by mortar,tanins in cedar and who knows what else. There is a stucco wrap made for just such an application. With a life cycle of 25 yrs. why would one want to put a material lasting 100 yrs over it ? Call me old fashioned,but give me the time tested felt paper.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

well whats the guaranty on felt?


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

None, but I have seen it come out of very old buildings in good shape.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i understand that but ive aso seen much of it rotten,flaky and bug chewed

if you have seen 100 year old felt it's because not alot of ''pressure'' was put on its performance,it stayed dry,out of sunlight and most likely not in contact with the cladding


----------



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

BrickSetter said:


> You may think im joking but we are aloud to us staples they are a specific kind of staple made for that application.


yes, many jobs are are stapled with no problems,...In fact my Hurd window job home is stapled - beleive there 1" wide gal crowns.


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*felt*

Felt paper HAS come in direct contact with stucco and not back primed cedar for 100+ yrs. Rain screen walls and back primeing siding is a rather new concept (less then 20yrs) So i suppose the answer to the question,what gaurantee does felt paper come with? It is the 100+ year track record of service it has provided The failure of "house wrap" made it to the cover of J.L.C. a few short years ago. The author of the article stated the job was rebuilt with the usage of felt. He said he would continue to use it on future work.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

thinking a ''rainscreen'' is a new invention is absurd,and to say felt hasn't ever failed is even more so


----------



## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

you guys should know better than to pull sir Thomas into a felt vs. Tyvek thread. Zip it before he comes back :laughing:


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

felts a great product as long as you know what your really getting, and yes synthetics can and have had issues,but to say felt don't.. well i don't buy it


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

BrickSetter said:


> You may think im joking but we are aloud to us staples they are a specific kind of staple made for that application.


Bricksetter,its not not allowed,its just frowned upon.

Chances are company you work for is trying to speed up the process and cut the cost since staples are obviously cheaper.

I have not read one spec in my entire life that would suggest using any size of staple for either natural/cultured stone or stucco.

Weights of both are too heavy and even if it does not lead to failure in the nearest future,it will happen.

As for tyvek,typar and other similar products,I frown upon those personally due to the fact that once the wall is up you are not going to see whats behind. Tar paper has been tested by decades(if not more) of its use and there is purpose why spec states 2(!!) layers of tar paper per masonry wall(whether stucco or any other).

If you are level 2 bricklayer,I am pretty certain you are mostly familiar with books offered at Red River College as hands on book for apprentice bricklayers. Please review chaper 7 (edition 2002) in both of the books on moisture bareers. You will find answers to all of your questions you may have.

I see you are from Winnipeg. I re-did multiple properties on Sage creek done in cultured stone as well as stucco that were build brand new in 2009 and had both conventional stucco and cultured/natural stone system failures mainly due to the rot in the framing of the house.

Most of those were insurance claims and I had no rights for any digital copyrights to show you some pictures,but guess what those houses were wrapped in one layer of tyvek/typar by Cutting Corners Masonry who worked for Fly-By-Night Custom Builders.

If Cutting Corners Masonry wants to cut the cost and underbid by using Tyvek instead of something reliable,its all good...I only need one house to fail out of 50 because people talk.

And I got ten of them a month to fix...nevermind one :thumbsup:


----------



## BrickSetter (Apr 19, 2012)

Its otfround upon there is actually ad relulation in our code as to size thickness length. Things are different where ever you go. But im not trying to argue thats the way it is here it may just be different there.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

BrickSetter said:


> Its otfround upon there is actually ad relulation in our code as to size thickness length. Things are different where ever you go. But im not trying to argue thats the way it is here it may just be different there.


Different where? I am in Winnipeg,lol.

Its a preference thing and what makes you sleep better at night.

EDIT... please refer me to the code where typar or tyvek is mentioned and where is regulation to the code in regards to their thickness,length etc.

Both typar and tyvek are MINIMUM code,if someone is planning to build minimum code then as I said its preference thing .

Not an arguement,but I would love to see that bullet in the code talking about typar/tyvek.


----------



## BrickSetter (Apr 19, 2012)

*maybe wrong thread..*

i was talking about staples for meshing? sorry its late and i might have replyed on the wrong thread.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

one day you will probably see a ''tapeable''air barrier in the code,you will still be able to use felt it will just have to be on top of a synthetic


----------



## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

I was called in at last minute to install the windows on this Fire station in Colorado, and the masons were already rolling. 

I was surprised, impressed really, to see them installing felt over the Tyvek. They also were using a tape behind the metal ties. I tried asking the mason what the sticky tape was for, and I think he was trying to tell me that it was to seal the penetration from the screws through the felt. (English wasn't his language)

Can one of you masonry types confirm that for me, and tell me what the tape is called?

This wall was designed to have an 1-1/2" airspace between the felt and the brick veneer.


----------



## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Lettusbee said:


> I was called in at last minute to install the windows on this Fire station in Colorado, and the masons were already rolling.
> 
> I was surprised, impressed really, to see them installing felt over the Tyvek. They also were using a tape behind the metal ties. I tried asking the mason what the sticky tape was for, and I think he was trying to tell me that it was to seal the penetration from the screws through the felt. (English wasn't his language)
> 
> ...


What did it look like? Tyvek tape has their logo on it...I know it as seam tape. Was the tape thick (40 mil ) with a membrane that you peel off? If so it could be a vapor barrier that they trimmed into gaskets.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

it is to seal the screw holes:

http://wirebond.com/?page_id=2016


----------



## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

Definitely not Tyvek seam tape or straightflash. The masons were applying this vertically to the tyvek at studs prior to hanging the felt. It is like the tape in the previous post, except in this case, it is white. Prolly same thing, different brand. It was like a thick foam tape. 

Thanks for clarifying it's purpose.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Yeah, same purpose, just a different material.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

1 1/2 inch airspace, that seems alittle much, but it should get r done


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The standard is moving to 2" get ready.


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*House wrap*

This may be a huge urban 'MYTH". Some where some place i read/heard house wrap was created for shipping envelopes. THE makers said to themselves,there must be a better way to move way more product. The light bulb came on,lets wrap houses. If anyone doubts the scams pulled buy industry you are fooling yourself. Right now the huge,huge scamis being exposed regarding the use of fire retardent chemicals used in cloth. All the way from cloth ,carpets, baby blankets,etc,etc. Way to many articles i read questions the viability/longevity of house wrap. The picture of the fire house with felt covering house wrap made me think the specifier lacked faith in one of the products. And i don't think it was the felt. In typical engineer fashion he chose the belt and suspender approach. Buy the way,just so nothing is misconstruded ,i'am not saying felt is indistructable,just that is a superior product. I will continue to use it exclusively. Just like the glue of post it notes , house wrap may have been a mistake.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Tscarborough said:


> The standard is moving to 2" get ready.


How is it possible to prep the outside of a house for a 2" airspace? Build outs on the windows and doors? 6" brick shelfs? Insanity, who is going to save us from ourselves....

Just another assault on the masonry industry....


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*air space*

If they do infact move to a 2in. air space,it will i believe,reach the cut off and negate the possibility of the facing material to be factored in the thickness of composite walls. The back up mateerial will then "stand alone" for the purposes of structural calculations. If some one has knoweldge of this concept please weigh in.


----------



## BrickSetter (Apr 19, 2012)

Lettusbee said:


> I was called in at last minute to install the windows on this Fire station in Colorado, and the masons were already rolling.
> 
> I was surprised, impressed really, to see them installing felt over the Tyvek. They also were using a tape behind the metal ties. I tried asking the mason what the sticky tape was for, and I think he was trying to tell me that it was to seal the penetration from the screws through the felt. (English wasn't his language)
> 
> ...


I have never in my life every used nor seen installed the felt ontop of the tyvek what is it for?


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*felt*

BRICKSETTER------ Which product does it look like is "protecting" the other?


----------



## BrickSetter (Apr 19, 2012)

not trying to be a dink but dont answer a question with a questions i left highschool years ago. i do see that the felt is on top of the tyvek but what is the reason for it. we don't use it here so there must be a specific reason why it's used there. Correct?


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*felt*

BRICKSETTER; I to do not want to ruffel feathers. The question was rhetorical,to make a point. In mho it appears the felt is "protecting" the house wrap. By the way welcome to CT.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I do not know about one protecting the other, more like both serve different functions, plus, if I am not mistaken, that wall will have stucco (probably EIFS) on top of a wainscot of brick.


----------



## BrickSetter (Apr 19, 2012)

THanx and sorry, long day. agian though, what is the felt protecting the house wrap from. water, heat, bugs.....? after the house wrap here you put on siding or what ever your extirior finish is. so the only thing i can think of is the mortar but theres is never enough mortar against the tyvek to do any damage. dose it really have that much of an effect that it needs to be covered?


----------



## BrickSetter (Apr 19, 2012)

and if it is stucco. whats it there for. i know in old contrctuion they used to us it as a semi firegaurd for double whythe wood frame walls but i don't see that being the case if the stucco is going right on to it after the thin set or scratch coat.


----------



## elementbldrs (Sep 26, 2010)

We use the 60 minute paper from fortiflash here in WA an OR, we call it snorkel paper. Pretty standard.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

My only comment on the tar paper discussion is that my building code says that you can't use any building paper that is asphalt impregnated behind stucco.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Be that as it may, and it appears that per NBC 2005 9.28 you are correct, that is plainly stupid on it's face. You would do better to refer to the IBC 2006 2510.6 and R-703.63 that require 2 layers of water resistant barrier.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Simply put, I can give the reasons why you should, what are the reasons why you should not?


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I was referring to superseals post about how felt couldn't be used behind stucco in some jurisdictions but allow grade D paper. I should have been more specific. Is the felt asphalt impregnated and the grade D not?


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Sorry, Dom, not questioning you, just the code.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Both are.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

What about houses with the new plywood, with the membrane on it? does that constitute as a layer, so 1 other layer of felt , ect, is sufficient?


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

http://www.zipsystem.com/technical-information/typical-installation-wall.aspx


----------



## Jacob conrad (Aug 2, 2020)

I've used zip tape and grace Ice and water sheild cut into gaskets to go behind the wall ties the screws have a rubber gasket so once attached over the gasket it's water resistant. If the ice and water sheild gaskets sit in the sun to long it actually will peel off and create a place to catch moisture so you have to make sure the gasket isn't much bigger than the tie itself or a piece of tyvek tape on top of the gaskets. All studs should be marked precisely with a stud finder. Using big squares and praying you hit the stud isn't ideal.


----------

