# GFCI protection for old groundless outlets.



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Im asking because I dont know. If its a stupid question please point that out and then proceed to toss insults to my intelligence. ;-)

I'm finalizing a whole home remod and going through punch out. Around here if you have an existing circuit of outlets which wasnt grounded originally it must be marked with a sticker saying ground fault protected and not for appliance or something. It must also be ground fault protected. So in this house there are a TON of outlets so I installed some gfci breakers to protect those circuits without having to buy 37 $10 outlets.

The issue for me is when I tested the circuit with my handy trip tester instead of tripping the breaker it read hot nuetral reverse. 

Is this normal? Is this a protected circuit with the gfci breaker? Is it possible that my brother is right and this house is haunted? So many questions...

Thanks for your help.


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## mstrat (Jul 10, 2013)

I've wondered if this was a true thing or not...so I won't insult you


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Many people have wondered about whether this house is haunted or not.


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Have you taken out the receptacles and checked them? How do you know the polarity isnt reversed on the outlet runs? I dont think the gfci will necessarily trip if theyre reversed at the outlets


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

So the tester will read hot nuetral reverse if the polarity is reversed somewhere along the line?

Wouldnt it read that before I pressed the trip button? It reads open ground when placed into the receptacle but the hot nuetral reverse when the trip button is engaged.

The problem here is that both wires are black. How would this checking best be done?

Thanks for your help!


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

Casper is in there messing with you.
You can use a GFCI in that situation as long as it's tagged "no equipment ground". And I believe that your trip tester won't work properly testing that 2 wire system due to that lack of ground. But let's get a real sparky to tell us for sure 
(I've been wrong at least once before)


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

If it had existing two-prong outlets, you probably should have kept them or replaced with new two-prong outlets. And if they did need grounds somewhere, pull a new circuit for those.

Was it armored cable (that serves as path to ground) or not? If so, once upon a time they used to pigtail a ground wire to the box (if it was armored cable), but now you're not supposed to even do that.


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> So the tester will read hot nuetral reverse if the polarity is reversed somewhere along the line? Wouldnt it read that before I pressed the trip button? It reads open ground when placed into the receptacle but the hot nuetral reverse when the trip button is engaged. The problem here is that both wires are black. How would this checking best be done? Thanks for your help!


If the outlets are connected to the terminals at each junction and not pigtailed, one outlet connected improperly will carry that polarity down the line.

I would just look at the outlet closes to the panel feed which is giving you the reversed reading and make sure its wired right.


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Sorry i missed everything you wrote. If your reading when the outlet isnt tripped says that, i would ignore it. The reading saying open ground is correct.

Any plugs with a ground are technically supposed to be labeled as having no ground but GFCI protected


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## wireless (Nov 2, 2006)

When you push the test button it sends current to ground, the gfi picks up on the imbalance between hot and neutral and trips. If there is no ground there is no placed for the current to go so it won't trip.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> If it had existing two-prong outlets, you probably should have kept them or replaced with new two-prong outlets. And if they did need grounds somewhere, pull a new circuit for those.
> 
> Was it armored cable (that serves as path to ground) or not? If so, once upon a time they used to pigtail a ground wire to the box (if it was armored cable), but now you're not supposed to even do that.


Non armored cable and I needed to meet tr and couldnt find any 2 prong tr devices.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

dielectricunion said:


> Sorry i missed everything you wrote. If your reading when the outlet isnt tripped says that, i would ignore it. The reading saying open ground is correct.
> 
> Any plugs with a ground are technically supposed to be labeled as having no ground but GFCI protected


I did label them all. Im most curious if the reading of hot neutral reverse is proper, meaning the circuit is ground fault protected.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

wireless said:


> When you push the test button it sends current to ground, the gfi picks up on the imbalance between hot and neutral and trips. If there is no ground there is no placed for the current to go so it won't trip.


So reading hot ground reverse is a proper responce to a code compliant installation in this situation?


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

If you want to test the two black insulated wires to identify the hot, run an extension cord from a circuit that is grounded (if you have any) and test each wire to the ground of the extension cord.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

dielectricunion said:


> If you want to test the two black insulated wires to identify the hot, run an extension cord from a circuit that is grounded (if you have any) and test each wire to the ground of the extension cord.


That sounds like fun.. :laughing:

I did build a cool jacobs ladder out of a neon transformer last week..


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Matt,

The sticker you need is inside the package usually and reads "No Equipment Ground"

If you are reading a hot/neutral reverse, this means just that. The shorter slot should be hot and the longer slot is the neutral. If they ALL read like that, it's probably a quick fix somewhere upstream.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Matt, the only approved way to test a GFCI breaker or receptacle is with the test button on the device, not the plug in tester. I am sure you are aware that instead of a breaker, you also could have installed a GFCI receptacle at the first device of each circuit and been in compliance.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

rselectric1 said:


> Matt,
> 
> The sticker you need is inside the package usually and reads "No Equipment Ground"
> 
> If you are reading a hot/neutral reverse, this means just that. The shorter slot should be hot and the longer slot is the neutral. If they ALL read like that, it's probably a quick fix somewhere upstream.


I was able to get the stickers from my supply house and from some stock boxes. Thank you.

To be clear the outlets read open ground which is expected until the trip button is engaged at which point it reads hot nuetral reverse.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

TxElectrician said:


> Matt, the only approved way to test a GFCI breaker or receptacle is with the test button on the device, not the plug in tester. I am sure you are aware that instead of a breaker, you also could have installed a GFCI receptacle at the first device of each circuit and been in compliance.


I am aware of that but was trying to avoid excessive hit and miss tracking down the source device. The home is brick on block which made complete rewiring cost prohibitive for the client. I wasnt crazy about messing too much with the old wire. Seem like one always snaps flush when we play with it too much.

The breakers only took me 10 mins or so to install which I thought was the right call but now Im confused about the tester read.

If the trip button hots the ground and there is no ground would this create the false hot neutral reverse read?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I was able to get the stickers from my supply house and from some stock boxes. Thank you.
> 
> To be clear the outlets read open ground which is expected until the trip button is engaged at which point it reads hot nuetral reverse.


Gotcha. You're fine then. I must have read it wrong.:blush:


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