# Why do car manufacturers still make cars and trucks with rear wheel drive?



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

I don't use tape at all. I just keep mudding it until the cracks go away.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> I use paper tape when taping large areas and mesh with hotmud. However my preference is paper.


Mesh? You hack.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> Mesh? You hack.



Yeah,,, it's about as bad as plastic decking 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Take a vehicle that's available in all configurations with the same tires and see what you will like. The FWD will be the worst handling and in snow and ice it's amplified 10 fold. Next best would be RWD and then the best 4wd. But take them on a dry road and it may be FWD, 4WD and then RWD as the RWD have better weight distribution. But the 4WD cars will still normally destroy the RWD version just because of drive traction. That's why the Skyline will be 98% rear until it needs the power in the front wheels then it may be 40 front and 60 rear.


I drive in snow every year and everything you said is ass backwards. I just got rid of my 4x4 jeep, handled awesome in the snow. I won't even touch another RWD. Slide all over the place. 

All I own now is FWD. Love it.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I drive in snow every year and everything you said is ass backwards. I just got rid of my 4x4 jeep, handled awesome in the snow. I won't even touch another RWD. Slide all over the place.
> 
> All I own now is FWD. Love it.


I don't think he's ever driven in snow.

Secret to driving in snow:

- Don't drive like an *******
- Don't gun it, don't stop abruptly
- Skinny pizza cutter tires
- Weight over the drive wheels


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I drive in snow every year and everything you said is ass backwards. I just got rid of my 4x4 jeep, handled awesome in the snow. I won't even touch another RWD. Slide all over the place.
> 
> All I own now is FWD. Love it.



Funny that because the most common vehicles I see wrecked around here in the winter are jeeps. They handle like crap with that short wheel base and they have crap tires that run like hockey pucks on ice and snow. If your driving skill is that bad you can drive anything but a FWD then your skill level lower than my 3year old.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

4x4's and jeeps get wrecked in the snow when soccer moms think, 'If it goes good, it should stop good too'


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> I don't think he's ever driven in snow.
> 
> Secret to driving in snow:
> 
> ...



Tire width makes no difference. I have seen Audis with 10" wide tires going through 3ft of snow multiple times. Not something I would do but they can. It's more about the winter compound than the tire width. You should know this though if you drive in winter conditions. Gunning it sometimes is the only way to get moving. Tread gets compacted with snow. Gunning it clears the snow so you can get grip. If you have decent winter tires though gunning it normally ain't required as they don't slip in ice as easily. 
Weight over the drive wheels helps like it does for any vehicle but it's less important than tire type or drive type.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Tire width makes no difference. I have seen Audis with 10" wide tires going through 3ft of snow multiple times. Not something I would do but they can. It's more about the winter compound than the tire width. You should know this though if you drive in winter conditions. Gunning it sometimes is the only way to get moving. Tread gets compacted with snow. Gunning it clears the snow so you can get grip. If you have decent winter tires though gunning it normally ain't required as they don't slip in ice as easily.
> Weight over the drive wheels helps like it does for any vehicle but it's less important than tire type or drive type.


OK I'm not trying to be an ******* here but you don't know what the fvck you are talking about.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Wide tires in snow are like giant ski's

An extra couple thousand pounds sure doesn't hurt.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TimelessQuality said:


> 4x4's and jeeps get wrecked in the snow when soccer moms think, 'If it goes good, it should stop good too'



It's grown men around here who drive them. Not exactly sure why because they are god awful things to drive. Rough, noisy, slack steering, **** handling and you look like a tool driving them lol. They tip over so often they have upside down stickers that say please flip me over.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> OK I'm not trying to be an ******* here but you don't know what the fvck you are talking about.



Oh yeah course not. Them thousands of videos of cars width silly wide tires going through snow and ice are all fake lol

Here's an all road. 8.5"-9" 20's 
Guess you are wrong. Try doing that in your fwd pos lol


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

Should have started this thread before the T4T deadline.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I think he just spends a lot of time rubbing one off while watching YouTube videos of f150's an audi's.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

:blink:..does that work?..


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Youngin' said:


> Should have started this thread before the T4T deadline.



There's always next year.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

BCC You're absolutely right on a few things. Short wheelbase likes to spin around, and tires are the most important for safety. 2WD cars still have 4 wheels for cornering and stopping.

And sometimes wide tires are better, like super deep snow, sometimes. Generally skinny tires work better on roads, even covered in snow.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I think he just spends a lot of time rubbing one off while watching YouTube videos of f150's an audi's.



Oh good come back. Very original.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

..well i never heard of it before


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Golden view said:


> BCC You're absolutely right on a few things. Short wheelbase likes to spin around, and tires are the most important for safety. 2WD cars still have 4 wheels for cornering and stopping.
> 
> And sometimes wide tires are better, like super deep snow, sometimes. Generally skinny tires work better on roads, even covered in snow.



Tires being on ice or snow are no different than dry roads. The more surface area in contact with the surface the more traction it will have. What matters is the compound stays soft enough to mold over the surface of what it's on. Summer tires go hard winter tires stay soft. Winter tires in the summer handle like crap because they are too soft. Yet people think the softer the compound the better the grip in the summer but it's not true. Tires are designed specifically for the surfaces they run on which is why all seasons are pretty bad tire overall but if you can afford 2 sets of rims and tires they are a great compromise.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You have no idea of they were in 4wd or not. And I can cuz I owned one. You can't because you haven't.
> 
> One season? No that doesn't. I've been driving in it for 25 years. Blizzards, 2 months of snow on the ground. Sorry man VA winters aren't chit.
> 
> You keep driving whatever, but until you live somewhere with real snow, like I said, I could give a chit about your opinion.



Again you are showing how little you know. 4wd makes no difference to going around a corner or stopping. It's the tires that do that. They could have been in 200wheel drive it wouldn't have made zero difference.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Again what difference does the depth of snow make. Because you are wrong we are now comparing who gets the most snow!
> 
> Like I said if you can't handle a rwd vehicle in the snow you should be driving in it. You boys keep to the fwd so that you don't get your self in to much trouble. Whilst we men use our awd's with winter tires so we can pull you out lol.


If RWD is so much better why is it harder to drive. You keep referring to needing skill to drive it in snow. Why not be smart and get something easy to drive in snow like FWD?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> Snow depth matters a great deal because it can pack underneath and take the weight off the wheels.


He doesn't get much so in his mind it doesn't matter.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

*Why Do Car Manufacturers Still Make Cars And Trucks With Rear Wheel Drive?*



TNTSERVICES said:


> If RWD is so much better why is it harder to drive. You keep referring to needing skill to drive it in snow. Why not be smart and get something easy to drive in snow like FWD?



RWD is no harder than FWD but front wheel drive keeps it simple for people who can't drive. Turning into a oversteer situation is hard for some to understand. take it easy with the right tires both will get you there. I wouldn't use either because I see enough people stuck here to not risk it. the road upto snowshoe here looks like this when it snows. 






It's pretty fun to watch until they all start sliding down towards you.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> A guy I knew drove his porsch 911 AWD in the winter and he said the only thing that stopped it from performing well was it just didn't have enough ground clearance.


I wouldn't drive my 911 if there was frost on the road....


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> I didn't say they were lying they lied about my old tires though.
> 
> There's no arguing that a thinner tire will push through snow easier. Clearly it would but not having the HP to do that is not an issue in new cars. The ice comes when the tires contact the ice. It's be proven that more contact on the ice means better grip. PSI is important to compact the snow and not float on it but with the weight of a vehicle 7" tires or 12" tires is still gonna have more than enough weight to compress that snow. Snows not something I have ever had an issue with grip on. I get very good grip on snow but it's the ice that's the issue. That's where more surface area matters. Just like it does on dry ground. You can only compress that snow so much then you are on ice. It's the ice people get stuck on mostly and not the snow. This tires and ice are bad. Unless you running studs then you will have zero issue either way.
> 
> ...


Look up ice racing, they use the skinniest tires they can get their hands on.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Look Here's a Volkswagon just like Barri's


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> Look Here's a Volkswagon just like Barri's


Just look at how massively wide these ice racing tires are:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Yeah, but what about the compound?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> but with the weight of a vehicle 7" tires or 12" tires is still gonna have more than enough weight to compress that snow.



Plenty of vehicles will float with wide tires. Even a 1/2 ton truck can and does float.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

griz said:


> I wouldn't drive my 911 if there was frost on the road....


You have a 911?

And frosted roads?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> RWD is no harder than FWD but front wheel drive keeps it simple for people who can't drive. Turning into a oversteer situation is hard for some to understand. take it easy with the right tires both will get you there. I wouldn't use either because I see enough people stuck here to not risk it. the road upto snowshoe here looks like this when it snows.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VAORFjO3cGI
> 
> It's pretty fun to watch until they all start sliding down towards you.


Your statement contradicts itself it's no harder but fwd is simpler. What's the opposite is simpler? More complex. More complex means harder. If you mean you'll lose your chit easier with rwd I agree and thus need to know how to handle it buy with fwd you don't need to fight your car trying to push the weight of the car through the snow.

Like I said, you guys don't get enough snow to know what the hell your talking about. You think to do, but you don't. You see people in ditches because they aren't used to driving in it not because of their vehicle. I've driven them all in this climate and fwd is far easier to handle and take off.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> the road upto snowshoe here looks like this when it snows.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VAORFjO3cGI


That's normal winter driving around here, no big deal. It's fluffy, which makes it easier than some conditions.

As a beginning driver, I learned to drive on ice at the local ice racing lake, and similarly learned to drive on snow. It's pretty common up North.

OTOH, my GF thinks you're a puddin head and full of it. She's plowed for 40 years, and had a commercial route with 200-250 drives. Had her CDL when she was 16. I usually agree with my GF.:laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Happy New Years, guys, I'm retiring to my compound.:laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> That's normal winter driving around here, no big deal. It's fluffy, which makes it easier than some conditions.
> 
> As a beginning driver, I learned to drive on ice at the local ice racing lake, and similarly learned to drive on snow. It's pretty common up North.
> 
> OTOH, my GF thinks you're a puddin head and full of it. She's plowed for 40 years, and had a commercial route with 200-250 drives. Had her CDL when she was 16. I usually agree with my GF.:laughing:


Damn Barri got punked by a girl! :laughing:


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

What difference does it make...people can't drive on dry pavement.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Look up ice racing, they use the skinniest tires they can get their hands on.



So we are comparing studded tires now! 

Here you go have a little read. You might educate your self a bit. What does Bridgestone say about the tires and why they perform so well. Note there is zero mention of tire width. Yet they perform well because of compounds, tread pattern and tire type. But you lot carry on thinking that these don't matter and that FWD is best, putting on 4wd gives more grip in a corner and that skinny tires are what saves the day. 

Like I say they explain the differences for you which clearly you don't know. 
http://www.bridgestonetire.com/tread-and-trend/drivers-ed/snow-tires-studded-tires-vs-studless-tires


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

hdavis said:


> Plenty of vehicles will float with wide tires. Even a 1/2 ton truck can and does float.



Wow the misinformation is strong in you. You understand why people decrease tire pressure and not increase tire pressure in snow and ice yes. The more contact the tire has to the snow/ice the more traction it has. If your idea of more psi under the tire was true they would say increase psi. The tread design of the tire performs a few things. They can either clear snow and ice or hold it. The link I posted above dose a pretty good job of explaining this but as you should know tires on new snow don't slide anywhere near like tires on compacted snow/ice. The reason is because the snow gives pretty good traction because it binds to its self in the tread. It's the tread that allows this and more tread means more grip. If you read a little about how tires work you would know this. Then get get onto thread design for ice they want more tire on the ice so more of the grip design can grab the ice. A thin tire can't have as much tread pattern in contact with the snow and ice so it's not as effective as a wider tire. Of course someone running a good slim all season and someone running a crappy wide all season the slim tire gonna handle better in the conditions. That's why you using the right tires is key.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Your statement contradicts itself it's no harder but fwd is simpler. What's the opposite is simpler? More complex. More complex means harder. If you mean you'll lose your chit easier with rwd I agree and thus need to know how to handle it buy with fwd you don't need to fight your car trying to push the weight of the car through the snow.
> 
> Like I said, you guys don't get enough snow to know what the hell your talking about. You think to do, but you don't. You see people in ditches because they aren't used to driving in it not because of their vehicle. I've driven them all in this climate and fwd is far easier to handle and take off.



After saying 4wd gives you more grip in a corner it's clear you ain't got a clue what you are talking about.


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## C&C Custom Trim (Apr 20, 2014)

People that have spent their entire lives driving in the salt belt vs a guy who read some stuff and watched a YouTube vid or two. Lol

Wide tires suck in rain, let alone snow and ice. Now, when BCC parks at the end of the plowed path, a 4x4 with wide tires and some power is how you stay on top and move along. What's best on road is not always what's best off road. Those Jeeps you see slid off are built to go in places Land Rover pussies don't dare go for fear of a scratch. Off-road, not groomed dirt paths.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> So we are comparing studded tires now!
> 
> Here you go have a little read. You might educate your self a bit. What does Bridgestone say about the tires and why they perform so well. Note there is zero mention of tire width. Yet they perform well because of compounds, tread pattern and tire type. But you lot carry on thinking that these don't matter and that FWD is best, putting on 4wd gives more grip in a corner and that skinny tires are what saves the day.
> 
> ...





BCConstruction said:


> Wow the misinformation is strong in you. You understand why people decrease tire pressure and not increase tire pressure in snow and ice yes. The more contact the tire has to the snow/ice the more traction it has. If your idea of more psi under the tire was true they would say increase psi. The tread design of the tire performs a few things. They can either clear snow and ice or hold it. The link I posted above dose a pretty good job of explaining this but as you should know tires on new snow don't slide anywhere near like tires on compacted snow/ice. The reason is because the snow gives pretty good traction because it binds to its self in the tread. It's the tread that allows this and more tread means more grip. If you read a little about how tires work you would know this. Then get get onto thread design for ice they want more tire on the ice so more of the grip design can grab the ice. A thin tire can't have as much tread pattern in contact with the snow and ice so it's not as effective as a wider tire. Of course someone running a good slim all season and someone running a crappy wide all season the slim tire gonna handle better in the conditions. That's why you using the right tires is key.





BCConstruction said:


> After saying 4wd gives you more grip in a corner it's clear you ain't got a clue what you are talking about.


There are real estate novelists.
There are construction theorists

And there are magazine car experts.

I present Exhibit A.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

C&C Custom Trim said:


> People that have spent their entire lives driving in the salt belt vs a guy who read some stuff and watched a YouTube vid or two. Lol
> 
> Wide tires suck in rain, let alone snow and ice. Now, when BCC parks at the end of the plowed path, a 4x4 with wide tires and some power is how you stay on top and move along. What's best on road is not always what's best off road. Those Jeeps you see slid off are built to go in places Land Rover pussies don't dare go for fear of a scratch. Off-road, not groomed dirt paths.



Lol and again. You do know what makes a tire good in the rain/snow/ice I have bought enough tires in my lifetime to know what works best so I have some experience with tires. 

Contact area is your friend. To a certain extent. 5ft wide tires couldn't clear slush or rain very well but we are talking about 12" and under tires here. 

It's all in the tread design. Have a read about siping. It's a pretty simple concept. Basically you know how snow sticks to snow. Build a snowman or snowball. Tires are designed to grab onto the material they are in contact with. The more snow the tire can hold the better the grip between the snow and tire. The sane goes for in the wet. The siping adds so much more grip it's crazy. The more siping in contact with the surface your on the more grip you have. Which is why wider tires stop so much better in the wet and let you pull away at crazy speeds in 2" of water. 

Here you go a extremely simple demo of what it does and why tire type is very important to conditions your driving in.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> There are real estate novelists.
> 
> There are construction theorists
> 
> ...



Please show me a list of performance cars you have owned. Curious to see if your full of BS!


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Holy crap.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Holy crap.



I know right. It's unreal how little these people know about tires! Lol


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Please show me a list of performance cars you have owned. Curious to see if your full of BS!


What BS did I post Barri? Anything atall that rises to the stink level of yours?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

*Why Do Car Manufacturers Still Make Cars And Trucks With Rear Wheel Drive?*



SmallTownGuy said:


> What BS did I post Barri? Anything atall that rises to the stink level of yours?



So facts don't matter. Yes let's ignore facts and the laws of physics so that so people who have zero clue on how tires work can make up stuff as they go along. You should know by now that when people argue with me I'm right. Ain't been wrong once yet. I don't argue unless I have facts to back up my statements. 

So far we have people saying 4wd gives better traction on corners. 
Thin tires bet better grip in snow
2wd is better than AWD
Wide tires don't stop in rain as good as thin tires 

It's like reading a bunch of replies from kids in pre school. 

So your expertise on this subject is? What cars have you owned again? As in curious to know why you think I'm full of it. Or are you just making stuff up like some others.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Great article. (long)

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2009-winter-tire-test-comparison-tests


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Nah, it's just a bunch of people that have driven a bunch of vehicles in crappy weather their whole lives. 

No one gives a **** about a performance car in the middle of the winter.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

MarkJames said:


> Great article. (long)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2009-winter-tire-test-comparison-tests



Good article. They even reviewed the tires I have. They also stated that "compound accounting for the majority of traction" which is because they can stay so soft compared to all seasons. 

Prob gonna have to put my summers back on though if this heat keeps up.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> So facts don't matter. Yes let's ignore facts and the laws of physics so that so people who have zero clue on how tires work can make up stuff as they go along. You should know by now that when people argue with me I'm right. Ain't been wrong once yet. I don't argue unless I have facts to back up my statements.
> 
> So far we have people saying 4wd gives better traction on corners.
> Thin tires bet better grip in snow
> ...


BC post me some concrete evidence of your argument, I've already posted some of my own.

You claim wider tires perform better in winter driving, I argue the exact opposite.

I claim FWD is superior for traction since there is increased vehicle weight over the driven wheels, you claim RWD is better because its all in the magic of the tires.

Just take a step back and read all the incorrect BS you have written, you have successfully taken the trophy of ignorant ******* from Rob congratulations.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Nah, it's just a bunch of people that have driven a bunch of vehicles in crappy weather their whole lives.
> 
> No one gives a **** about a performance car in the middle of the winter.



Why not. They have the best setup for driving in snow and ice, good suspension. Can lower and raise mine which is nice. Low center of gravity, AWD, very advanced drive system. Way better than most if not all SUV's. Great traction control and a very good tire selection. Winter performance tires ain't made in a lot of sizes but performance cars get some of the best.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> So facts don't matter. Yes let's ignore facts and the laws of physics so that so people who have zero clue on how tires work can make up stuff as they go along. You should know by now that when people argue with me I'm right. Ain't been wrong once yet. I don't argue unless I have facts to back up my statements.
> 
> So far we have people saying 4wd gives better traction on corners.
> Thin tires bet better grip in snow
> ...


Again, what BS did I post?

As far as vehicles I've owned, over the years, it's been in the hundreds - possibly more like better than a thousand.

And go fast cars I've either owned or worked on? You are out of your league.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Why not. They have the best setup for driving in snow and ice, good suspension. Can lower and raise mine which is nice. Low center of gravity, AWD, very advanced drive system. Way better than most if not all SUV's. Great traction control and a very good tire selection. Winter performance tires ain't made in a lot of sizes but performance cars get some of the best.



Why would anyone want to drive a performance car (I think overpriced car) in the winter? Winter ruins vehicles. Winter time is for 4x4 beater trucks, beater with a heater. 

1500.00 truck lasts me a few winters.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> BC post me some concrete evidence of your argument, I've already posted some of my own.
> 
> You claim wider tires perform better in winter driving, I argue the exact opposite.
> 
> ...



I posted the link to Bridgestone. Did you not even read it. Tire width never comes up as a way to get better grip. It's at the bottom of the list for requirements. As I said before its tire type (winter/all season/summer)
Tire compound 
Tire tread pattern 
Drive system 
Then if you really want to worry about tire width it's tire width but I have never found tire width to make zero difference. 
As the article above points out that was posted its the majority compound. That gives you grip. All 4 above should be considered before tire width damn even tire diameter should be considered before tire width but for me that's not an option because 19's are smallest I can run. 

Your thinking also goes against the laws of physics for one and what everyone knows is more tire in contact with its surface means more traction. A skinny tire will have vastly less coefficient of friction for one and way less of that very important compound and tread in contact with the surface. Like I said before a long time ago before we had winter/all season/summer tires that are advanced as they are skinny may have helped. It's a non issue as evident by every tire company who mentions nothing of it. It's just posts like yours on blogs and forums that go on about it being important.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Again, what BS did I post?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol ok thousands and out of my league. Ok so you can't back that up. Thought so.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

You can keep going, I am wondering how deep you can dig that hole.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Why would anyone want to drive a performance car (I think overpriced car) in the winter? Winter ruins vehicles. Winter time is for 4x4 beater trucks, beater with a heater.
> 
> 1500.00 truck lasts me a few winters.



Because I want my Familey to be safe. I want the car to perform and not get stuck when they drive through 2ft of snow through the mountains, I want the car to protect them if a moron running all seasons cones flying up the other side of the road in his $1500 beater and smashed into them. Remember it was you who said air bags and seat belts were not needed then got pissed of because I said in more worried about my Familey.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> You can keep going, I am wondering how deep you can dig that hole.



Until someone can prove that every reputable tire company and the laws of physics are wrong.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> I posted the link to Bridgestone. Did you not even read it. Tire width never comes up as a way to get better grip. It's at the bottom of the list for requirements. As I said before its tire type (winter/all season/summer)
> Tire compound
> Tire tread pattern
> Drive system
> ...


The article said nothing about width, your claim was wider is better, show me proof.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Because I want my Familey to be safe. I want the car to perform and not get stuck when they drive through 2ft of snow through the mountains, I want the car to protect them if a moron running all seasons cones flying up the other side of the road in his $1500 beater and smashed into them. Remember it was you who said air bags and seat belts were not needed then got pissed of because I said in more worried about my Familey.




Man, you are a special kind of ignorant.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Maybe you are just a crappy driver, so you need to over compensate


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Lol ok thousands and out of my league. Ok so you can't back that up. Thought so.



No, 
I'm not going to redden your ass.

The discussion is on why some prefer 2wd, fwd or 4wd, and why some work better for certain conditions.

You also use the term "performance" and that's a WIDE ranging term.

You have limited experience in adverse weather. If you had more experience, then you would already know that each type has its benefits and deficits.

One thing else I do know: the moment someone does the "oh yeah I've got this - what have you got", they've already admitted losing control of the conversation.

Silly boy.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh, the 1500 beaters have lockers, and tall skinny tires. 

They also don't pull out chumps in performance cars either.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> The article said nothing about width, your claim was wider is better, show me proof.


Do i have to post every single post from every single tire maker until you believe me lol

http://www.continental-tires.com/car/technology/wide-tires


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

Talking about compound of a tire make up,any remember way back when Firestone put some kind of chip in their winter tires? We always use to call it saw dust ,but am sure it was not . Gave good traction though.

Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

here you go as clearly you dont read anything i post so that everyone can see you are wrong because they clearly dont see your posts i have got on the PC to reply with a picture.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Oh, the 1500 beaters have lockers, and tall skinny tires.
> 
> They also don't pull out chumps in performance cars either.


It will be more like a performance car pulling a truck out. Performance cars come with summer tires. They absolutely can not be used in the winter so people fit winter tires. People in truck normally run all seasons which means you have vastly less grip than the car which as torque vectoring Sports diffs that are way beyond lockers or LSD's and way more power in most situations.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

That is a company trying to sell tires to morons that have to drive their pos sports car in the winter and still want their tires to look cool. 

Probably worked huh?


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> here you go as clearly you dont read anything i post so that everyone can see you are wrong because they clearly dont see your posts i have got on the PC to reply with a picture.


ah, "sipes"
Carlisle Snow Hog:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Man, you are a special kind of ignorant.


I'm ignorant lol. Worrying about my familey whilst in a car is not ignorant. i just wont drive about in a $1500 truck with no airbags or seat beats. Your a moron for doing that but what do i know. They are your kids so ain't my problem. 

really calling someone ignorant because they want safety for their family.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> That is a company trying to sell tires to morons that have to drive their pos sports car in the winter and still want their tires to look cool.
> 
> Probably worked huh?


Actually no because i didn't by that brand so clearly it didn't work.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> ah, "sipes"
> Carlisle Snow Hog:


That's far from road legal lol


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Actually no because i didn't by that brand so clearly it didn't work.


You bought into that, it worked.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> I'm ignorant lol. Worrying about my familey whilst in a car is not ignorant. i just wont drive about in a $1500 truck with no airbags or seat beats. Your a moron for doing that but what do i know. They are your kids so ain't my problem.
> 
> really calling someone ignorant because they want safety for their family.



Never had a wreck, never been stuck, haven't had a moving violation in 20 years. I can manage to drive anything safely. I have no need for vehicle gadgets.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> You can keep going, I am wondering how deep you can dig that hole.


very very deep


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## C&C Custom Trim (Apr 20, 2014)

Siping doesn't stop hydro planing. It lessens it. A wide tire full of sipes is still worse than a narrow tire full of sipes. I've siped my own tires along with cutting lugs/changing tread patterns. Grinders and hot knives/groovers aren't new to me. 

Wide tires have their place, driving on road in bad weather isn't it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Never had a wreck, never been stuck, haven't had a moving violation in 20 years. I can manage to drive anything safely. I have no need for vehicle gadgets.


Same here but it's not me i'm worried about. Airbags are not gadgets. I know you don't believe in them but they save thousands of lives a year. Pretty much proven too. Seat belts also save thousands a year too. Clearly it's your choice not to use them. It's my choice to use them.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

And it's also your choice to be completely ignorant about actual winter time driving, as we can all witness.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

C&C Custom Trim said:


> Siping doesn't stop hydro planing. It lessens it. A wide tire full of sipes is still worse than a narrow tire full of sipes. I've siped my own tires along with cutting lugs/changing tread patterns. Grinders and hot knives/groovers aren't new to me.
> 
> Wide tires have their place, driving on road in bad weather isn't it.


Tire companys and experts say your wrong. But keep thinking cutting your own treads is anything like a real performance tire :blink:

By the way i went from a 8.5" tire to a 9" tire and stopping distance improved and so did grip in the wet and dry. I don't have an issue lighting up the tires now as bad as before. So my experience also says your wrong. Perhaps drive a real car with decent tires that have not got treads cut by you. lol @ i cut my own treads :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> And it's also your choice to be completely ignorant about actual winter time driving, as we can all witness.


Explain how im ignorant. I have backed up what i have said numerous times. Not with blog posts or forum posts either. What exactly is ignorant about using the right tire and know what differences their are between tires. To me that's called informed. or is ignorant your word of the day.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

SmallTownGuy said:


> ah, "sipes"
> Carlisle Snow Hog:


More "sipes"


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Average snowfall total Roanoke VA 23"
Average snowfall total Chicago Ill 38.7"
Average snowfall total NNJ 35"

Hardly anything stops in the snow belt when it snows, they seem to know what they are doing. Here many things close when it snows, I would expect VA. to shut down when it snows


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Here's a "sipes" compensator - for those who finally realize that wide footprints and "buillions and buillions" of "sipes" can't get the job done:


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## C&C Custom Trim (Apr 20, 2014)

In motorsports the best tires are designed to be cut/grooved yourself. Some people play off pavement. Where we can actually use all the power we have without breaking laws.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Worst tires I ever owned were some snow rated BFG'S that were almost 13" wide. 

What a miserable tire for snow. 

We deal with 3 to 5 foot drifts out here in corn country. Like to see a performance car with 12" wide tires get through that.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

rrk said:


> Average snowfall total Roanoke VA 23"
> Average snowfall total Chicago Ill 38.7"
> Average snowfall total NNJ 35"
> 
> Hardly anything stops in the snow belt when it snows, they seem to know what they are doing. Here many things close when it snows, I would expect VA. to shut down when it snows


Roads where i live can take 2 weeks to be cleared and nearly no one in our neighbourhood is getting out unless they have at least 4wd and good tires. depending on how soon i get out i can just about pull my trailer up the hill. Aint no fun though. Coming down is even more fun. I wouldn't say it stops as most people can still get to work unless your on a neighborhood like mine that takes weeks to get cleared. The issue here is more so with ice. Snow is easy to drive on as you have great traction compared to ise. The ice here is it snows gets compacted then melts then freezes and turns to solid ice. Thats where the winter tires come in. My all seasons can handle the snow pretty well. Ice is a no go. The winter tires are like having studs on your tires. Still have to be careful but zero issue going from a steep ice covered hill to a cleared road. No need for chains or tire socks and can be used in temps under 50f


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> here you go as clearly you dont read anything i post so that everyone can see you are wrong because they clearly dont see your posts i have got on the PC to reply with a picture.


I see your article and raise you 5.

Bridgestone says the opposite, they say to reduce width by 10%.


https://www.kaltire.com/what-is-minus-sizing/

http://tires.about.com/od/understanding_tires/a/Why-You-Should-Downsize-Your-Winter-Wheels.htm

http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=126

http://tires.canadiantire.ca/en/info-centre/plusMinus/

http://www.tirereview.com/breaking-winter-tires/

The only actual test I saw was this sweedish magazine which compares a skinny and wide Nokian in their test, most of which the skinnier one performed significantly better:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Roads where i live can take 2 weeks to be cleared and nearly no one in our neighbourhood is getting out unless they have at least 4wd and good tires. depending on how soon i get out i can just about pull my trailer up the hill. Aint no fun though. Coming down is even more fun. I wouldn't say it stops as most people can still get to work unless your on a neighborhood like mine that takes weeks to get cleared. The issue here is more so with ice. Snow is easy to drive on as you have great traction compared to ise. The ice here is it snows gets compacted then melts then freezes and turns to solid ice. Thats where the winter tires come in. My all seasons can handle the snow pretty well. Ice is a no go. The winter tires are like having studs on your tires. Still have to be careful but zero issue going from a steep ice covered hill to a cleared road. No need for chains or tire socks and can be used in temps under 50f


Do they allow studded tires in your state?  They are banned in Ontario due to road wear but are allowed in every province, there are quite a few people that buy them in Quebec and drive in Ontario. They are pretty incredible on ice.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> I see your article and raise you 5.
> 
> Bridgestone says the opposite, they say to reduce width by 10%.
> 
> ...


Every single one them is saying what i said. It's better to reduce wheel diameter. Thats nothing to do width. Some tires wont come in a smaller diameter unless you get a smaller width though so some you have to have smaller width but i dont have to as they have the sizes i need in 19's at same width. 

As i said that old way of thinking needs to stop. You are allowed to use the new technology and it works great. Everyone who has run a wider version of the same exact tire prefers the wider tire.

To keep using the idea that a 1" change in a width of a Tire is gonna improve grip is pathetic to say the least. You are gonna have the same outcome no matter how wide the tire is but the more tread biting into the snow and ice the better your grip. if it was not then wouldnt we be riding around with 4" wide tires' Why not 1" wide. Hard compounds needed that extra weight on the tire to get the tire to mold to the surface. New tires stay soft enough not to need this. 

Still funny you are trying to argue something with me i have personally tested and found to be true. Keep running your skinny hard compund tires though. All that matters is that you like them.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Do they allow studded tires in your state? They are banned in Ontario due to road wear but are allowed in every province, there are quite a few people that buy them in Quebec and drive in Ontario. They are pretty incredible on ice.


I doubt they allow them here as main roads are nearly always cleared the same day. There's really no need to run them though unless you wanna race some people on a ice lake :laughing:. I did see though that it's law in Quebec to run winter tires now though. Thats good to see.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Explain how im ignorant. I have backed up what i have said numerous times. Not with blog posts or forum posts either. What exactly is ignorant about using the right tire and know what differences their are between tires. To me that's called informed. or is ignorant your word of the day.


"ignorant" precisely because you inform yourself by "going to the book". 

Just now you attempt to devalue "blog posts or forum posts", preferring the sales-speak of magazine publishers and tire mfrs over the hands on "boots on the ground" experiences of fellow CT members - yet it is exactly that very hands-on experience we rely on for every topic on this forum.

Hands down, no contest, no one can quote numbers, stats, or mfrs claims as readily as you.

Except for GettingBy.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Because I want my Familey to be safe. I want the car to perform and not get stuck when they drive through 2ft of snow through the mountains, I want the car to protect them if a moron running all seasons cones flying up the other side of the road in his $1500 beater and smashed into them. Remember it was you who said air bags and seat belts were not needed then got pissed of because I said in more worried about my Familey.


You ain't driving through 2' snow.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

http://www.kbb.com/car-reviews-and-news/top-10/best-winter-cars-2013/2000009009-0/


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Every single one them is saying what i said. It's better to reduce wheel diameter. Thats nothing to do width. Some tires wont come in a smaller diameter unless you get a smaller width though so some you have to have smaller width but i dont have to as they have the sizes i need in 19's at same width.
> 
> As i said that old way of thinking needs to stop. You are allowed to use the new technology and it works great. Everyone who has run a wider version of the same exact tire prefers the wider tire.
> 
> ...


Let me help you out with all that hard reading:

"What is Minus Sizing

Minus sizing means using smaller diameter wheels with narrower, higher profile tires (but still maintaining your vehicles original equipment needs). By doing so, better deep snow traction is achieved, and can also result in great savings on Winter Tire & Wheel Packages. In addition, higher profile tire sizes feature taller sidewalls and smaller diameter wheels that resist damages associated with winter road hazards."

"A smaller and narrower tire has better grip and performance in snow or ice. This is both because the smaller tire cuts through snow more effectively, and because the weight of the car is pressing on a more focused set of contact patches."

"Unfortunately wide, low profile tires have to "plow" a wide path through deep snow, where narrower tires have an easier time. So if you're likely to drive through deep snow this year, you'll want winter / snow tires and wheels in sizes that help put the laws of physics on your side."

"As a result, minus sizing is more common when purchasing winter tires because the narrower tire width focuses the weight of the vehicle onto a smaller area, cutting through snow more effectively than a wider tire, and ultimately, providing better traction."

"Generally, narrower tires are better in snow and on ice because they are more stable and get better linear traction by penetrating the snow."


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Nobody runs special winter tires on dump trucks around here. They don't run lower tire pressure, either. 

Performance on ice, no matter the tire, doesn't vary that much from tire to tire until you get to studs and racing spikes (not legal on any road). The difference in cornering and stopping traction ith a given vehicle / tire combinationon ice determines the fastest you can safely drive if you have a possibility of ice.

None of the tire tests deal with all the conditions that have to be dealt with through a season of driving up here or the differences in vehicles or driving on a heavily crowned road vs flat road vs banked corners. They also don't cover driving down the road with the plow blade fully raised and having the snow come up over the hood.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorz...-ice-four-wheel-drive-versus-all-wheel-drive/


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> I doubt they allow them here as main roads are nearly always cleared the same day. There's really no need to run them though unless you wanna race some people on a ice lake :laughing:. I did see though that it's law in Quebec to run winter tires now though. Thats good to see.


It's not good for a few reasons, why should that be the government's decision? Why must it be forced upon people.

People buy winter tires then think they can drive like it's dry asphalt.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

http://www.propertycasualty360.com/2015/03/06/here-are-the-13-top-performing-cars-in-the-snow

Jeep Cherokee made the top of this last.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You ain't driving through 2' snow.



Why not. Not uncommon to see that around here. 

You do know I live up by the blue ridge mountains. Have seen as much as 26" of snow in one night. Most times it will dump 12-18" then another 8-12" the next night. Also depends where I'm working. Could be rain down low making a bunch of ice but snowing up in the higher mountains. our snow rates are taken from the airport which is at the lowest level in the area. They don't get anywhere near what the mountains get I have to go over. It's kind of like comparing base rates to peak or summit rates. They can be drastically different depending on altitude. I didn't expect you to know this as you think 4wd gives better grip lol


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Still trying to find a single RWD that's listed better in the snow.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

hdavis said:


> Nobody runs special winter tires on dump trucks around here. They don't run lower tire pressure, either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's a large difference between tires. You wouldn't know this though as you have not used them. There's even a big difference between a good all season tire on snow and ice and a mid all season tire. Stepping to a winter from a summer is a massive difference.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I dint think it I know it. Most articles I've posted agree is superior in the snow.

And your "high end" Sudan isn't pushing 2' of snow or of the way. Please post a video of yours doing so.

You may drive over it once it's compacted, but not through out as you claimed.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Still trying to find a single RWD that's listed better in the snow.



Again it's more to do with the tires. How many times do I have to say this. You like to ignore this I noticed. Both will be stuck with crap tires. 

Just like the jeep. They run extremely hard compound off roading tires because they expect them to be off road in them. Issue is they are awful in the winter because they go super hard. Put a set of winters on them and they will be fine. But people think big tread means big grip. It's not that simple. Might have been 30years ago.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I ignore out because it's a party of the solution. You say it is the solution. 

I say I had a jeep 4wd that handled great. You said this cars sick and you see them in the ditch. I say it's because of their driving skills and you say it's the vehicle. 

Now it's my the vehicle but the tires.

The topic was drive not tires. Why is rwd still made. You've made this about tires because you know your claims about rwd being better are bogus so this is your way out. You can focus on tires all you want. RWD is the worst of the four in snowy conditions.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

I drove Jeeps for many years. Logging over 500,000 miles commuting from Utica NY average snowfall 100 " to Syracuse average snowfall over 120".
Never got stuck, drove all season tires.
Now while I agree that snow tires can give better grip, I have never bought them as I have driven Jeeps through 2-3' of snow without a problem.

I do own two 4 wheel drive vehicles now a Dakota and a Rav4. Both have all seasons tires .

Never felt the need for snow tires.
By the way, I have had exactly one accident in the years of driving and that was ajudicated not to be my fault.


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## JAH (Jul 27, 2014)

The worst tires for snow have to be 38"x14.5" Super Swampers. :laughing:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I dint think it I know it. Most articles I've posted agree is superior in the snow.
> 
> And your "high end" Sudan isn't pushing 2' of snow or of the way. Please post a video of yours doing so.
> 
> You may drive over it once it's compacted, but not through out as you claimed.



YouTube is your friend. Ain't had this car in the winter yet. But I know 6 other guys with Quattro Audis who have zero issue going through deep snow. There's thousands of people online doing it in them cars so shouldn't be hard to find.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I ignore out because it's a party of the solution. You say it is the solution.
> 
> I say I had a jeep 4wd that handled great. You said this cars sick and you see them in the ditch. I say it's because of their driving skills and you say it's the vehicle.
> 
> ...



Anyone who has driven most drivetrains know RWD is superior. Not for people who ain't got a clue that 4wd does not add grip though. That's why you should def stick with a FWD. it's the same car my grandma drives in the snow lol

But like I said put the same tires on both vehicles and they were perform almost exactly the same. But RWD will be safer because your steering wheels are not your drive wheels. But not safer if you can't drive very well or understand what steering into oversteer means. It's not hard. It's just harder than fwd but this don't make FWD better. Not anywhere near close.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Framer53 said:


> I drove Jeeps for many years. Logging over 500,000 miles commuting from Utica NY average snowfall 100 " to Syracuse average snowfall over 120".
> 
> Never got stuck, drove all season tires.
> 
> ...



If my wife didn't have to drive over the mountains in snow storms I prob wouldn't have gone performance winter either. But because it had performance summer they can't be used in snow or ice at all if you want to go anywhere. 

All seasons are a compromise in every respect. It gets silly hot here and snows pretty good in winter so it's best to have the tire for the season. I even have a set for spring and fall which are just standard summer tires. Roads not hot enough to run performance summer tires.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> If my wife didn't have to drive over the mountains in snow storms I prob wouldn't have gone performance winter either. But because it had performance summer they can't be used in snow or ice at all if you want to go anywhere.
> 
> All seasons are a compromise in every respect. It gets silly hot here and snows pretty good in winter so it's best to have the tire for the season. I even have a set for spring and fall which are just standard summer tires. Roads not hot enough to run performance summer tires.


The winter tires are not needed for you wife's vehicle. I understand that you have them because you want the best for your wife, I get that.
But this whole argument is just nonsense.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Framer53 said:


> The winter tires are not needed for you wife's vehicle. I understand that you have them because you want the best for your wife, I get that.
> 
> But this whole argument is just nonsense.



Again another person who has zero clue what they are talking about. Summer tires can be used in the winter as long as you want to crash or get stuck. Drive a vehicle with summer tires in the winter then come back and let us know how it went. I have used them enough in the past on snow and ice to know its a bad bad idea. There's even a warning when you buy the car that tire tires and no good for snow or ice. They ain't even much use on cold asphalt which is why I standard summers too.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

BCConstruction said:


> ... main roads are nearly always cleared the same day.


:whistling


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TimelessQuality said:


> :whistling



Snow clearing around here is pretty good on main roads. They try and run 3-4wide down the interstate. Still ends up with about 2" of thick ice but the main deep snow is normally gone. It's all the back roads that are the issue. Last winter I was snowed in to the customers drive for 2 weeks until they came and cleared their road. There driveway was about a 30% grade. Not fun to get down or up in snow and ice.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Snow clearing around here is pretty good on main roads. They try and run 3-4wide down the interstate. Still ends up with about 2" of thick ice but the main deep snow is normally gone. It's all the back roads that are the issue. Last winter I was snowed in to the customers drive for 2 weeks until they came and cleared their road. There driveway was about a 30% grade. Not fun to get down or up in snow and ice.


I'm with you on all that and agree on the tires for the side roads. As for the rest of this discussion, no.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

MarkJames said:


> I'm with you on all that and agree on the tires for the side roads. As for the rest of this discussion, no.



And you are allowed your opinion even though it's wrong lol. It don't change the fact my truck can get up a snow covered hill in RWD and FWD cars have to get a massive run up to even get close to getting up and even then 90% don't make it. But I know the reason for this and it has nothing to do with drive type.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

No ford is going up that in 2wd with their horrible limited slip diff.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> No ford is going up that in 2wd with their horrible limited slip diff.



Well it did every day for about 3weeks. Not in 2wd though. The 2wd is on my hill by my house. Rare I have to put it into 4wd unless it's real bad ice. LSD don't really get used with current tires. They are way better in snow than my old tires ever were.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Of course


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> And you are allowed your opinion even though it's wrong lol. It don't change the fact my truck can get up a snow covered hill in RWD and FWD cars have to get a massive run up to even get close to getting up and even then 90% don't make it. But I know the reason for this and it has nothing to do with drive type.


This whole discussion was about handling and traction overall. So now you're comparing cars vs. trucks going up a hill? OK. With the same tires, no problem for a fwd, and probably better since there's weight over the wheels.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I can't imagine changing tires a couple times a year on 3 vehicles. Driving skill has more to do with it than equipment. WE currently have a RWD van, a 4WD Jeep, and a FWD Camry. While there are definitely differences in how they all handle snow and ice, I think who drives what has more to do with it.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Yeah.. Forget the tires and get back to LSD...

Window pane? blotter?microdot?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

TimelessQuality said:


> Yeah.. Forget the tires and get back to LSD...
> 
> Window pane? blotter?microdot?
> 
> ...


I like sugar cubes.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

MarkJames said:


> This whole discussion was about handling and traction overall. So now you're comparing cars vs. trucks going up a hill? OK. With the same tires, no problem for a fwd, and probably better since there's weight over the wheels.



It still is. RWD is still better for handling. It still gives the driver more control (if you know what you are doing) if not stick to FWD and it puts power down way better. It's better balanced, There's a reason you don't see any high performance vehicles with FWD. they will all be RWD and all wheel drive. Nothing changed. 

The reason the car vs truck comparison was used is because there ain't no FWD trucks. You could use a FWD car vs a rear wheel car if you like. It still don't change the fact that 90% of the issue is tires not the drive type. Drive type is at the bottom of the list. Like I said very early on I have seen FWD cars go up slopes 4x4 trucks get stuck on. You could have the best drivetrain in the world but if your tires are crap you ain't going anywhere.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

TimelessQuality said:


> Yeah.. Forget the tires and get back to LSD...
> 
> Window pane? blotter?microdot?
> 
> ...


purple haze:clap:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

This thread is like me giving advice to people about driving on desert sand.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> It still is. RWD is still better for handling. It still gives the driver more control (if you know what you are doing) if not stick to FWD and it puts power down way better. It's better balanced, There's a reason you don't see any high performance vehicles with FWD. they will all be RWD and all wheel drive. Nothing changed.
> 
> The reason the car vs truck comparison was used is because there ain't no FWD trucks. You could use a FWD car vs a rear wheel car if you like. It still don't change the fact that 90% of the issue is tires not the drive type. Drive type is at the bottom of the list. Like I said very early on I have seen FWD cars go up slopes 4x4 trucks get stuck on. You could have the best drivetrain in the world but if your tires are crap you ain't going anywhere.


The only problem with your argument is that it's wrong. Rwd is worse for handling and consequently requires higher skill.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-pluses-and-minuses-of-FWD-vs-RWD


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

MarkJames said:


> The only problem with your argument is that it's wrong. Rwd is worse for handling and consequently requires higher skill.


In the winter, on dry asphalt he's right on the money...but he doesn't know Jack fvck about winter driving.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> Damn Barri got punked by a girl! :laughing:


An old lady.:whistling


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

So let's clear this myth up too seeings as no body on here got a clue. 

Here's what happens when summer tires are used in the winter. I hate to keep being right but I can't change facts 

It takes 11.7 seconds for our Civic Si to accelerate to 40 mph on snow tires, and 14.5 seconds to get there on all-season rubber — nearly 3 seconds and 24 percent slower. As for the summer tires, well, they require, ahem, 41.7 seconds as they struggle to 40 mph. That's no typo; it takes a half-minute longer — 257 percent more time — for the summer tires to reach this modest speed.

What about our traditional 0-60-mph test? Well, snow tires get to 60 mph in 19.1 seconds, while the all-season treads arrive in 22.9 seconds, nearly 4 seconds later. Forget the summer tires, however. The available 3,650 feet of snow — seven-tenths of a mile — isn't enough. We figure 67 seconds and 3,100 feet are needed to get there, and then there's the small matter of needing to stop again.


And that brings us to our next test: full stops with ABS engaged. Here again the snow tires dominate, stopping from 40 mph in 156 feet, some 28 feet shorter than the all-season tires' 184-foot performance. Meanwhile, our summer tires skate to an ultimate distance of 351 feet, the ABS actuator rattling for all it's worth the whole way.

Increase the starting speed to 60 mph and these distances more than double. It takes 362 feet for the snow tires to stop and 421 feet for the all-season donuts. The summer tires sit this one out because they can't manage to get themselves to 60 mph in the first place. (We do the math instead and come up with an estimate north of 800 feet.)


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> So let's clear this myth up too seeings as no body on here got a clue.
> 
> Here's what happens when summer tires are used in the winter. I hate to keep being right but I can't change facts
> 
> ...


No Barri, still quoting magazine articles.

Real world, practical experiences with real world drivers, doing real world chores say you don't know squat.

Sometimes, being a paper boy is just that - not worth the paper it was written on.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Everything works on paper


Barri, is GettingBy related to you?


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

I liked the part where he said gunning on ice helps


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> No Barri, still quoting magazine articles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Problem is I'm not a "paper boy". I own these things and have used these things. Your trying to argue something you don't have the first clue about. If your not gonna believe my experience then believe the people who make the tires, the people who test the tires or even the millions of others on forums who also find exactly what the tire company and testers find.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> And that brings us to our next test: full stops with ABS engaged. Here again the snow tires dominate, stopping from 40 mph in 156 feet, some 28 feet shorter than the all-season tires' 184-foot performance.


So safe top speed based on stopping distance for the test conditions is a little more (like 5%) for those wonderful winter tires. The difference between drivers is more than that - as is the difference in vehicles. You're dealing with a 3rd place effect as if it was all important, and in real world highly variable snow driving, it just isn't up there. Around here, the ones that end up in the ditch are going too fast for their tire/vehicle/ driver skill/ road / visibility conditions.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Problem is I'm not a "paper boy". I own these things and have used these things. Your trying to argue something you don't have the first clue about. If your not gonna believe my experience then believe the people who make the tires, the people who test the tires or even the millions of others on forums who also find exactly what the tire company and testers find.


No, you are quoting a magazine article.

If you say you have a certain experience, then that is one thing. When you quote a magazine article - like you just did, you are a paper boy.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

rrk said:


> I liked the part where he said gunning on ice helps



Depends. Tires are designed to clear the slush which means they have to spin. Spinning them on snow won't help as they require the snow to stick to them and fill the voids where as on slushy ice you would to clear the slush so there less of it between your tires and surface. The same way people who drive through mud have to spin the tire to clear the mud to get the tread to do its job. It's pretty simple understanding. Clearly on ice alone you don't want to be spinning your tires if you can help it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> No, you are quoting a magazine article.
> 
> 
> 
> If you say you have a certain experience, then that is one thing. When you quote a magazine article - like you just did, you are a paper boy.



Because someone said I can run summer tires in the winter. Which you can't as I have explained. Tried it on 3 cars in the past and it's a bad idea. You just can't stop no matter how good a driver you are. Anyone who has used summer tires will tell you the same exact thing. But if I'm wrong prove me wrong. Upto yet no one has proved I'm wrong. Good luck.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Because someone said I can run summer tires in the winter. Which you can't as I have explained. Tried it on 3 cars in the past and it's a bad idea. You just can't stop no matter how good a driver you are. Anyone who has used summer tires will tell you the same exact thing. But if I'm wrong prove me wrong. Upto yet no one has proved I'm wrong. Good luck.


Are you just daft?

People run the same tires all year long up here, out west, in the mountains, in the valleys.

We only got one 2 kinds of tire up here: New, and needs replacing.

But you keep quoting those magazine articles - they'll compensate.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Anyone who has driven most drivetrains know RWD is superior. Not for people who ain't got a clue that 4wd does not add grip though. That's why you should def stick with a FWD. it's the same car my grandma drives in the snow lol
> 
> But like I said put the same tires on both vehicles and they were perform almost exactly the same. But RWD will be safer because your steering wheels are not your drive wheels. But not safer if you can't drive very well or understand what steering into oversteer means. It's not hard. It's just harder than fwd but this don't make FWD better. Not anywhere near close.


I NEVER said it added more grip. Grip is only one factor in driving on snow, it is far superior in handling.

If you had the same tires on both, the 4WD would be superior. The experts agree.

If it's easier to drive a FWD that does means it is better and superior. It takes out the over-steer factor and that is a major factor in slick condition accidents.

Like I said, I live where we get real snow all of the time for 6 months of the year. We have sub zero and below freexing temps for much more of the winter than you do. I have driven them all, with all kinds of tires and 4WD is superior than FWD and FWD is superior to RWD.

All that you have produced is tire data, not drive data. Why? Because the experts agree with what I said above.

https://www.motorists.org/blog/winter-driving-rwd-fwd-awd-4wd/

look down at the bottom and you will see this:

"_The downside: A RWD vehicle is not the hot ticket for snow driving — unless you enjoy fishtailing like a just-landed sea bass. Rear-drive (2WD) pick-ups are especially atrocious in snow; their light rear ends tend to break loose even on wet roads._"

And just to finally shut you up on the subject:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/winter-traction-test-what-price-traction-the-bottom-line-page-4

_So What's the Bottom Line?

Four-wheel drive helps get cars going. When it comes time to brake or change direction on low-traction surfaces, the extra mass of the driveline becomes more of a detriment. Folks who live in hilly places that get snow may need the climbing capability of four-wheel drive. If it snows a lot in those hilly places, they should probably invest in winter tires, too. Even flat-landers who happen to have steep driveways may wish to consider a four-wheel-driver.

Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.

Winter tires boosted the rwd Benz's acceleration times more than they did the fwd Audi's, but in almost every other test, the inherently front-heavy Audis derived more benefit from the winter rubber than did the more evenly balanced Benzes. This finding certainly suggests that front-drive cars benefit from winter tires as much or more than rear-drivers do.

And finally, unless snow or ice covers your roads many times in a winter, the snow benefits of winter tires may not outweigh their drawbacks on dry pavement.

There, Nevin. And don't ask which came first, the chicken or the egg._"

So adding snow tires does not make them equal. FWD and 4WD are superior.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Never drove in it in my life. I've never even really thought about it.


Barri's done enough thinking for the both of you.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Barri's done enough thinking for the both of you.


I so want to think that, but this thread has caused me to invest all my thanks away! :laughing:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> The question is which is better in snow. RWD , FWD or 4WD. I contend that RWD is the worst. You disagreed. You are wrong and I am right. Car and Driver agrees with me.
> 
> You said if you add snow tires to RWD and FWD they will be equal. I contend that the FWD is still superior and even 4WD is better. I am right and you are wrong. RWD is still inferior. Car and Driver agrees with me.
> 
> ...


You and others think FWD is better because it's easier to control. I find RWD just as easy to control. I prefer having the RWD with winter tires over a FWD with winter tires because i dont want to loose my drive breaking and steering all in one when you hit ice. With winter tires both will get you wear you need to go but the advantage if when you lose traction on the front wheel drive car you loose braking and power and steering. On a RWD car you have more weight over the back wheels because of the 50/50 weight distribution so braking still worse good and you can over steer if need me. Not hard to do for anyone who has driven a RWD in snow or ice. Now my Grandma wouldn't want to be in a fwd but to me the RWD is vastly superior for people who know how to drive. 

Im not saying my way suits everyone as it don't. My grandmas a perfect example. I have also never said car and driver don't disagree with you. I disagree with you. But the difference is i have driven rear wheel drive on winter tires had had zero issue getting to wear i needed to go whilst passing numerous fwd and 4wd vehicles. It may not work for you but it works for me.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> Never drove in it in my life. I've never even really thought about it.


It sucks.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

But driving around in a 1 ton 4x4 with an 8' blade on the front does a pretty good job of keeping people from pulling out in front of you...

Great way to make your own parking space also....


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Wow. Only men could argue about tire width and traction.

For the record, rear wheel drive in actual snow is horrible.

Front wheel drive is slightly better because of more weight.

Four wheel drive is best for starting transaction.

None of the above three help with stopping or turning better.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

tedanderson said:


> What if we combine the discussion about RWD vs. FWD with a discussion about Ford vs. Chevy?
> 
> So does RWD work better on Fords or Chevys? Or do Chevys fair better with their FWD cars?


HAR!

2 winters ago, came back from a trip, the little GMC 4WD pickup & the Chevy Venture are both in the driveway. I want to jump in the truck, and go to a site. 


It's rained, then frozen, snowed over, and the GMC is down about 2" in frozen muck. It won't move. We snag it with a strap. The strap breaks. Get a fresh strap, will now pull out the Venture van first, to get a better pull angle.

Start van, rock it - it drives itself out!!! Eventually we get the GMC loose too - but it was work.

Have had several Venture vans around here - they will go like little billy goats unless the snow is so deep that the wheels can't hit ground.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Wow. Only men could argue about tire width and traction.
> 
> For the record, rear wheel drive in actual snow is horrible.
> 
> ...


Some help with turning better. Some have things called tq vectoring and sports diffs. They can make the wheels with more traction spin at different speeds to pull a vehicle around a corner. My car has it. Can go around a corner way faster than not having it. It wont increase grip but it will help turning better.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Some help with turning better. Some have things called tq vectoring and sports diffs. They can make the wheels with more traction spin at different speeds to pull a vehicle around a corner. My car has it. Can go around a corner way faster than not having it. It wont increase grip but it will help turning better.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQowh2Kr38s


My car has torque vectoring but it doesn't work as well on slippery surfaces, but you can disable it for exactly that reason.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

*Why Do Car Manufacturers Still Make Cars And Trucks With Rear Wheel Drive?*



Inner10 said:


> My car has torque vectoring but it doesn't work as well on slippery surfaces, but you can disable it for exactly that reason.



Weird as its purpose is meant for that. Aint tried the Audi in anything other that cold and wet and so far zero wheel spin even when using launch control. After tuning though I can spin the tires in the wet but all 4 spin until I let off the throttle. I have a trans tune I want to put on it to make better use of that power though. 

Is your a 2wd as that's probably why. They are much more basic systems from what I hear.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I am just glad he bought another car to talk about, the last 4 years of platinum f150 was wearing.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I am just glad he bought another car to talk about, the last 4 years of platinum f150 was wearing.



Bullcrap. It was never me who bought it up. Always green eyed monsters like your self had something to say about it. You always have had issue with people who have stuff nicer than you.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

griz said:


> Maybe not for you, but in real snow country it is often the only way in or out unless you have cross country skiis....or snow shoes....they both suckk way more than chains.


And a lot of the passes out there, you're not allowed to even try to drive without them when conditions are bad....


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Weird as its purpose is meant for that. Aint tried the Audi in anything other that cold and wet and so far zero wheel spin even when using launch control. After tuning though I can spin the tires in the wet but all 4 spin until I let off the throttle. I have a trans tune I want to put on it to make better use of that power though.
> 
> Is your a 2wd as that's probably why. They are much more basic systems from what I hear.


No its AWD but you can manually toggle off torque vectoring or force it to FWD.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> You and others think FWD is better because it's easier to control.


There you go again, mind reading. You have no idea why I think what I think, no more than I can know how you came to your conclusions.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Bullcrap. It was never me who bought it up. Always green eyed monsters like your self had something to say about it. You always have had issue with people who have stuff nicer than you.



I don't care about stuff. Never have. 

You only care about stuff.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

griz said:


> But driving around in a 1 ton 4x4 with an 8' blade on the front does a pretty good job of keeping people from pulling out in front of you...
> 
> Great way to make your own parking space also....


9' 2", but who's counting.:laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Im not saying my way suits everyone as it don't. My grandmas a perfect example. I have also never said car and driver don't disagree with you. I disagree with you. But the difference is i have driven rear wheel drive on winter tires had had zero issue getting to wear i needed to go whilst passing numerous fwd and 4wd vehicles. It may not work for you but it works for me.


That's exactly what you have been saying. You have said that you are right and I am wrong. Everything that I have said the experts agree with. I can't help what you thought I was saying. I can't help that you think you know me better than I know myself.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> There you go again, mind reading. You have no idea why I think what I think, no more than I can know how you came to your conclusions.



Come to my conclusion because that's what I prefer if I had to have either. I don't have to have either because I have AWD that's even better than 4x4.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I don't care about stuff. Never have.
> 
> You only care about stuff.



Says the man who has more stuff laying around than prob anyone of this thread. I seen the state of your house and garage. It's just full of stuff. I prefer less stuff but quality stuff none the less. I know people like you any old Tat ends up in their garage as they have to have stuff no matter what it is. They call it pikey trinkets where I come from


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Just Google AWD vs Torque Vectoring AWD. TV is better performing on grippy surfaces, snow ice or dirt it's not nearly as good. Hence why I can disable it.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Says the man who has more stuff laying around than prob anyone of this thread. I seen the state of your house and garage. It's just full of stuff. I prefer less stuff but quality stuff none the less. I know people like you any old Tat ends up in their garage as they have to have stuff no matter what it is. They call it pikey trinkets where I come from


:blink:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> That's exactly what you have been saying. You have said that you are right and I am wrong. Everything that I have said the experts agree with. I can't help what you thought I was saying. I can't help that you think you know me better than I know myself.



No I have been posting links about the tires. I didn't push the fact that I prefer RWD over FWD. it's your preference that's fine. Like I said it's also my grandmas. It's just not mine. Now if I was posting links about all the other guys who also prefer RWD then perhaps you have a point. You can't tell me what's better when I know what's better. I can get over a mountain here with a RWD car more safely than I can with a FWD. you can't argue that as its what I find better. Like I said stick to your fwd if that what you feel safer in.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Says the man who has more stuff laying around than prob anyone of this thread. I seen the state of your house and garage. It's just full of stuff. I prefer less stuff but quality stuff none the less. I know people like you any old Tat ends up in their garage as they have to have stuff no matter what it is. They call it pikey trinkets where I come from



Yeah, you know everything about everyone. 

Like I said I don't care about stuff. I don't care if my stuff is good stuff of junk stuff, or what anyone thinks of my stuff. 

There are more important things then stuff.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Wasn't this mainly about rwd vs. fwd?? Is this some kind of revisionist history?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Yeah, you know everything about everyone.
> 
> Like I said I don't care about stuff. I don't care if my stuff is good stuff of junk stuff, or what anyone thinks of my stuff.
> 
> There are more important things then stuff.



So why you so worried about my stuff. When do I ever bring anything up about your stuff out the blue. You wanna stop worry about what I have and worry about your own stuff.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

...


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

Seams like a good place to drop this.....:sly::sly:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> But the difference is i have driven rear wheel drive on winter tires had had zero issue getting to wear i needed to go whilst passing numerous fwd and 4wd vehicles.



I get where I need to go every time. I'm not passing people, even though I could. 

The question isn't how fast you can go down the street, it's how fast you want to be going when there is an accident. I've had to drive through a snow bank, and then back through the bank out onto the road to avoid someone who pulled out in front of me without looking on downhill ice and stopped blocking the whole road when they finally saw me.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> So why you so worried about my stuff. When do I ever bring anything up about your stuff out the blue. You wanna stop worry about what I have and worry about your own stuff.


All you have been doing is going on and on about your damn car with is 37 sets of varied compound tires and showing videos about the damn thing, before that it's been 4 years straight about the vast superiority of a damn f150. F150 platinums are for chick's and yuppies. 

30 pages of your banter about stuff you clearly don't know that much about, yet you keep on going. 

You are starting to spiral pretty well now though.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

MarkJames said:


> Wasn't this mainly about rwd vs. fwd?? Is this some kind of revisionist history?


Yes. If Barri owned a FWD, then RWD would be pure crap.

But you knew that, right?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> All you have been doing is going on and on about your damn car with is 37 sets of varied compound tires and showing videos about the damn thing, before that it's been 4 years straight about the vast superiority of a damn f150. F150 platinums are for chick's and yuppies.
> 
> 30 pages of your banter about stuff you clearly don't know that much about, yet you keep on going.
> 
> You are starting to spiral pretty well now though.



So what. Why's it bother you so much. Funny how I don't get like this when you post about all the fancy machinery you have and keep getting. Why would it even bother me what you have. You have a jealousy issue dude. You been a green eyed monster to anyone who has nice stuff on this forum. They don't get the same way towards you are your "stuff" you wanna grow up


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Yes. If Barri owned a FWD, then RWD would be pure crap.
> 
> 
> 
> But you knew that, right?



Actually no it wouldn't. FWD cars have been some of the most fun cars I have ever driven. But keep making stuff up.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

MarkJames said:


> Wasn't this mainly about rwd vs. fwd?? Is this some kind of revisionist history?


My simple answer to the original question is RWD is still made because RWD is generally a better platform for performance driving, and it's pretty much the only way to go for heavy loads.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> So what. Why's it bother you so much. Funny how I don't get like this when you post about all the fancy machinery you have and keep getting. Why would it even bother me what you have. You have a jealousy issue dude. You been a green eyed monster to anyone who has nice stuff on this forum. They don't get the same way towards you are your "stuff" you wanna grow up


Why the hell would I be jealous of a girls truck and a car? Cars are worthless, I have never and will never own a car. 

Other people's stuff does nothing for me. 

Damn, you are getting all pissy now.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Just Google AWD vs Torque Vectoring AWD. TV is better performing on grippy surfaces, snow ice or dirt it's not nearly as good. Hence why I can disable it.



All I have seen is the test videos. Not had a opportunity to test mine out in ice yet. I hear it works great but won't know 100% until I try it my self.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Why the hell would I be jealous of a girls truck and a car? Cars are worthless, I have never and will never own a car.
> 
> Other people's stuff does nothing for me.
> 
> Damn, you are getting all pissy now.



I'm not getting pissy. I'm just curious why you always have to bring up my stuff. Why does it bother you so much if it's not jealousy. I'm not jealous of your sweet machines you got and I feel no need to bring up that you go on about them so much. I just can't wrap my head around it. If it ain't jealousy what is it?


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> So what. Why's it bother you so much. Funny how I don't get like this when you post about all the fancy machinery you have and keep getting.


*FESTOOL*

Go ahead - resist - I dare you.


And in a couple of days...

*APPLE*

That will create the Grand Finale.

For those caught by surprise, one of my vendors in the aisle will be happy to assist you with your popcorn purchase.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

SmallTownGuy said:


> *FESTOOL*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I own a lot of both. What's that got to do with anything?


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

griz said:


> Don't worry, you're not really missing anything.


c'mon on now. It is always fun driving in a snowstorm in nearly bumper to bumper traffic on a major 5 lane interstate up hill and the schmuck in front of you decides to stop. aahhhhhh


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