# Backfill higher than 6" below siding



## EricAnderson (Apr 1, 2010)

I'm consulting on a project for a gentleman who uses a prosthetic leg. The contractor has framed the deck about 20" above the ground and plans to build steps down to the ground.

Instead of building steps, I proposed back filling the area to remove the elevation and replace the steps with a gentle sloped sidewalk. This creates a maintenance free solution, universally designed solution which will always work for my client no matter if he's using the prosthesis or a wheelchair. 

I would like to have the contractor install a rubber membrane against the concrete foundation (dig down about 12") and up over the siding (about 12"). This rubber membrane will keep dirt and water away from concrete and siding. My client says the contractor will not agree to do this since he's already told my client he needs to back fill 6" below the siding. 

See proposed renderings...not drawn to scale. For illustration purposes. Do you see any problems with this plan?


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Landscape brick flower bed,maybe? Keep it a distance away from the siding.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

burying the house is always a bad idea..

step it up with block


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Code does require for the grade to be 6" below the siding, so your contractor is correct. What I would do is use your rubber membrane and backfill it up with gravel.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

I'd cut the siding back to above the proposed grade, rubber membrane, then cover it with azek or equivalent, and flash above and behind it.

Then the stone backfill and a drainpipe that runs below the walkway.

But, can't you make a wood ramp and keep the grade as it is?


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## EricAnderson (Apr 1, 2010)

Here's a blog I found on this topic. Question...the difference between this blog and my application is after the membrane is applied, concrete is against the membrane rather than dirt.

http://www.callsbsa.com/blog/why-wood-should-not-be-buried-below-grade/


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## EricAnderson (Apr 1, 2010)

I practice universal design. With universal design, the solution should be natural and not be a "reactive" approach to building. For example, a ramp is used after initial construction...you have elevation and accessible problem therefore you build a ramp. A sloped terrain is natural and inclusive to the design. Also, maintenance free (I realize you can use composite). I also realize this can be debated and that's fine but its what I chose to practice.


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## EricAnderson (Apr 1, 2010)

Here's a similar application from 7 years ago...no problems since.


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Give it another 5, the rim on that house will rot out. If your pouring under a covered porch, with a membrane, it's probably fine.

When your doing that in an exposed area your going to have problems. Tell me where is the water going to go that beads down the siding in that area? After it gets in between the membrane and the siding, where can it go after that?

You're like most designers I encounter. You draw something and ASSume it will work. When the contractor (who is much more knowledgeable than you when it comes to building) brings up a problem, you ASSume that he is wrong.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

jhark is correct. 

Why are you involved at this stage? If you are a consultant you should have done your job before the contractor was even contracted. After the job has been signed you are only in the way. 

Learn what you are doing. Just becuase it fits your vision of what should be doesn't mean it meets code nor does it mean it is the proper way to deal with issues. I think that previous job you showed sucks. It just looks wrong, It looks like it was constructed wrong. 

Having no step down to a deck is a terrible idea if the area is a snow zone. The shed roof looks terrible, it appears the roof is shingled on a shallow slope. You have siding extending below grade, a major problem. There is inadequate room for proper flashings below the windows on the side by that short shed roof. Your funky rafter on a rafter is junk design. 

You say there are no problems, I believe there are no problems that you are yet aware of. That project is a bug in search of a windshield, certainly nothing to brag on nothing to be proud of.


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

Backfilling up over wood framing no matter how well it is sealed is not a good approach.


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## EricAnderson (Apr 1, 2010)

jhark123 said:


> Give it another 5, the rim on that house will rot out. If your pouring under a covered porch, with a membrane, it's probably fine.
> 
> When your doing that in an exposed area your going to have problems. Tell me where is the water going to go that beads down the siding in that area? After it gets in between the membrane and the siding, where can it go after that?
> 
> You're like most designers I encounter. You draw something and ASSume it will work. When the contractor (who is much more knowledgeable than you when it comes to building) brings up a problem, you ASSume that he is wrong.


Just to clarify, this is a home I bought in 2005 to be a universal design model house. I did all the remodeling, except plumbing and HVAC, over the course of 9 months. Baltimore County held a ribbon cutting ceremony on the front steps, house has been featured and national magazines, and won awards. I still own the house today. 

I'm not sure the title Designer is the correct for what I do. By trade, I hold my MD contractor's license, home builder's license, realtor, and appraisers license. I only work in the residential setting where accessibility codes do not apply.

I only make recommendations for things I've successfully implemented on my own properties (I own 5). I don't make recommendations without due diligence. Hence, the reason for my post. I haven't made the recommendation to backfill this area with a slope sidewalk for this project. Recognizing the potential problem of doing this, I posted for feedback prior to making such a recommendation.

Accessible and universal design requires a different construction method. For example, a barrier-free shower (bathroom floor and shower floor level). After successfully designing and implementing these showers since 2006, I still have master plumbers go onsite for an estimate and tell the home owner it's against code and the "guy" who designed this is incompetent. Only to later have the shower successfully constructed without issues for years.


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## EricAnderson (Apr 1, 2010)

jhark123 said:


> Give it another 5, the rim on that house will rot out. If your pouring under a covered porch, with a membrane, it's probably fine.
> 
> When your doing that in an exposed area your going to have problems. Tell me where is the water going to go that beads down the siding in that area? After it gets in between the membrane and the siding, where can it go after that?
> 
> You're like most designers I encounter. You draw something and ASSume it will work. When the contractor (who is much more knowledgeable than you when it comes to building) brings up a problem, you ASSume that he is wrong.





thom said:


> jhark is correct.
> 
> Why are you involved at this stage? If you are a consultant you should have done your job before the contractor was even contracted. After the job has been signed you are only in the way.
> 
> ...


Why am I being brought in at this stage...the home owner isn't happy with the contractor's proposed construction. I didn't design the existing construction

Regards to my previous project, it may look wrong but works well without incident since 2005. All the problems you pointed out with the shed roof, poor sloped shingled roof, funky roof rafter where all pre-existing conditions that were in place for 18 years before I purchased the house. At the time of remodel, I elected to leave these in place since I was using my own money for this project. 

The project is actually something to be proud of...the county did a ribbon cutting ceremony on the front steps and the house has been featured in national magazines and video documentaries. If you care to learn more on any of these, please contact me through this site and I'll provide all corresponding media.


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## EricAnderson (Apr 1, 2010)

Here's a related blog a credible source...

http://www.callsbsa.com/blog/why-wood-should-not-be-buried-below-grade/

I appreciate all who have provided feedback. I plan to visit Baltimore County tomorrow to discuss this with an Inspector. I want to be sure I perform my due diligence before I talk to the home owner and contractor.

I'll report back with my findings.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

EricAnderson said:


> The project is actually something to be proud of.


I spent 30 years as a design builder. I retired when I was 56. I know a bit about design and construction. That project is not something to be proud of.

Getting a house in a magazine does not make the house a good house.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Eric, any membrane over the siding is problematic. Under the siding is the best. But if you do this backfill, where will the water go? Under the deck to sit? Don't forget blowing rain or snow can get past the membrane if it doesn't extend far enough past your fill. I'm not a fan of filling over the siding, just offering insights.

The picture of the successful deck show the fill far from the siding. I don't think it's a comparable situation but represents what you want to achieve with universal design.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

thom said:


> Getting a house in a magazine does not make the house a good house.





Much truth to this statement !:thumbsup:


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Obviously, the elephant in the room is the budget. Something has to give - the budget, adherence to code and good building practices, or your "universal design principles." If your client's going to die in 5 years and his heirs don't mind getting a rotting fixer-upper, then hire a C.L. hack to pile some dirt against the siding. If your client wants a nice, dry, safe place that doesn't smell like rot for the next 30 years, then pay attention to the contractor.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

well whats better smelling like rot or smelling like an elephant?:blink:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

CarpenterSFO;1777228 If your client wants a nice said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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