# wet mortar + bonder affect cured Polyurethane Masonry Sealant?



## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

Replacing basement windows in cinder blocks. 

This polyurethane based masonry caulk is amazing

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-...e-Crack-and-Masonry-Sealant-1618522/203156788

so I want to use this as the main sealant and then mortar over it for a nice finish.


Can I brush on a masonry bonder slurry to the cured poly caulk and then mortar (mixed with water plus more bonder) over it and not worry about the bonder/mortar eating away at the poly caulk?


----------



## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

gunner666 said:


> Replacing basement windows in cinder blocks.
> 
> This polyurethane based masonry caulk is amazing
> 
> ...


Shouldn't you ask the manufacture? Im sure there's an 800#. Not being sarcastic or anything. Just saying, that may be the best place for the most accurate info


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

No you cant.


----------



## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

If these are glass block windows, why don't you reverse the process you are suggesting.

Set the windows in mortar, leave the mortar shy of the face, caulk and blow sand into the "curing poly caulking" .


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

why do want mortar as a finish? caulk and walk...it rhymes so it must be true


----------



## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Caulk will move, mortar will not. Thats a problem.


----------



## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

dom-mas said:


> why do want mortar as a finish? caulk and walk...it rhymes so it must be true


That's how I've always done it, but caulk looks like sh*t as a finish against an existing mortar wash (or whatever you call the angled mortar outside the window that holds in it and keeps water running away). Especially the polyurethane based caulk since it's a lot globbier and harder to smooth to a finish unlike the basic DAP $3 masonry caulk. 

The mortar will be applied over about %25 caulk, %25 plastic (the window frame) and the main %50 over the existing mortar, all with bonder slurry added first, and bonder in the water to mix the mortar, so even if mortar doesn't adhere to the caulk, it will to the existing mortar and should to the plastic window frame also, so I'm not worried about it crumbling since it's not as thick of a mortar application VS just mortaring the whole window in without caulking. I added the poly caulk because of it's flexibility from freezing and house settling etc, r value, air and water tight VS just mortar.


----------



## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

I am a bit confused...

We have always replaced the windows, hammered and chipped all of the old mortar out, installed new window, foamed and after foam set, mortar winow inplace. We re-create the slope for water to run off and then in the next day or 2, apply clear caulk to mortar and window joint. Minimal caulk and can be completed quickly.

Have I been doing this wrong then?


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

it will crack, I don't care what bonding agent you apply. the vinyl window and the surrounding masonry will expand and contract at very different rates


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

brhokel606 said:


> I am a bit confused...
> 
> We have always replaced the windows, hammered and chipped all of the old mortar out, installed new window, foamed and after foam set, mortar winow inplace. We re-create the slope for water to run off and then in the next day or 2, apply clear caulk to mortar and window joint. Minimal caulk and can be completed quickly.
> 
> Have I been doing this wrong then?


 no thats a good method. Install the mortar if you ahve to but you need to apply caulk between the mortar and the window


----------



## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Did I miss something?

Did the OP say he was installing vinyl windows?

My mistake.

I did miss something. The OP's follow up post.

Set it with minimal expanding foam and some tapcons.

Use the "mortar poly" once the window is set.

"Float" in a sill after the window is set.

(something tells me, I'm still missing something...)


----------



## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

if I do as suggested i.e: 
1. great stuff for windows/doors if gap is over about 3/4" after new window is put in. 2. mortar over that and then apply clear caulk where the mortar meets the window once mortar dries,, then what if the house settles or the mortar decides to crack (even with bonder added)? Great stuff (if even needed) isn't waterproof, it's only water resistant. Think of a window 6" off the ground with expanding ice on it for weeks. That's why I think to add sealant/caulk on top of the great stuff (once cured and trimmed) and mortar over everything to complete. 
Unless wet mortar eats away at the caulk/sealant, the worst case scenario is that the mortar cracks and a new $3 bag of mortar is needed to repair. I can even go so far as to layer something over the caulk sealant to protect it from the wet mortar. 

Caulk/sealant where the mortar meets the windows as the final step is a good suggestion though.


dommas, you contradicted yourself, you told me the mortar will crack as the vinyl and masonry expand but then you told 606 that mortaring is fine.


----------



## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

I've never set vinyl windows with mortar acting as exterior trim. I once set windows in a block foundation with stone veneer. I used aluminum capping around the window, with a nice, hemmed bend laying on a flat mortar line to meet the stone.

That was about 9 yrs ago and the job still looks great: no issues.

Glass block, yes.

A picture would help.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

gunner666 said:


> dommas, you contradicted yourself, you told me the mortar will crack as the vinyl and masonry expand but then you told 606 that mortaring is fine.


mortar is fine to fill the space between window frame and surrounding masonry but it WILL crack where it meets the vinyl (or wood or aluminum)...so after the mortar has cured caulk between the mortar and the window. I cut a small key into the joint so the caulk is more than just pasted on

anytime 2 dissimilar [products meet there needs to be an allowance for movement...a soft joint, mortar is the opposite of a soft joint


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Dont you fasten the windows to PT bucks? then goop white crap on the outside, maybe stick some trim to it?


----------



## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

Here's one of the 7 we did on a basement in May.


----------



## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

ok thanks, so how about instead of caulking where the mortar meets the vinyl after the mortar cures, why don't I put a layer of caulk over the face of the vinyl where mortar will be, let that cure, and then mortar over it so that there's no place mortar touches vinyl. All mortar will meet flexible caulk as illustrated:


do this:






not this:


----------



## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

Vinyl on the window is so slick mortar will not stick. I have splashed mortar on a window without knowing it, came back next day and you can just brush it off. After I mortar, I wait the day or 2 so it dries but the bond also breaks so the window can flex. I do not screw the window in, I foam it in, for those of you that have tried to remove foamed in doors and windows know exactly how it holds.

I had 2 of my guys spend 4 hrs trying to remove a sliding glass door that was only foamed in, it kicked their butts!

There is no mortar around the window, only foam. The mortar then covers the cut flat foam to seal it. Then caulk after mortar is dry


----------



## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

brhokel606 said:


> Vinyl on the window is so slick mortar will not stick. I have splashed mortar on a window without knowing it, came back next day and you can just brush it off. After I mortar, I wait the day or 2 so it dries but the bond also breaks so the window can flex. I do not screw the window in, I foam it in, for those of you that have tried to remove foamed in doors and windows know exactly how it holds.
> 
> I had 2 of my guys spend 4 hrs trying to remove a sliding glass door that was only foamed in, it kicked their butts!
> 
> There is no mortar around the window, only foam. The mortar then covers the cut flat foam to seal it. Then caulk after mortar is dry


You build the second image I posted above but using expanding foam instead of polyurethane sealant. I know great stuff isn't waterproof and is only water-resistant, but maybe you found waterproof foam? I know windows have been set in mortar since like the 1200's or something, but aren't you worried about not having a better sealant like polyurethane caulk or at least non-polyurethane masonry sealant in case the mortar cracks from ice build up (if you live where it's cold)? I'm talking about the main portion of mortar, not just cracking the seam where it meets the vinyl that you say you caulk to allow expansion/contraction.



The windows are already installed and caulked in like the first image 'do this:' minus the mortar yet. I'm waiting back from loctite if their polyurethane masonry sealant will be affected by wet mortar, it probably won't, but if so, it's probably easiest to just caulk over polyurethane caulk with cheaper DAP non-polyurethane sealant: 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/DAP-10-1-oz-Watertight-Concrete-Filler-and-Sealant-18096/204167828

because unlike the rubbery polyurethane-based sealant, this can easily be troweled smooth then dusted with mortar to look like mortar. Caulk and walk looks ghetto, I want a nice finish, trim is an option, but kind of tacky and I don't really want to custom cut all the angles and stuff. 
Thanks for the suggestions.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

it really seems like you are making something simple into a complicated 4 step process, how big is the gap between the window and the masonry...is the masonry stone or block?

i wouldn't do either of the methods shown in the drawing


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Neither picture is correct. Masonry to vinyl or wood or metal is always a soft joint, period.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

gunner666 said:


> I know windows have been set in mortar since like the 1200's or something, but aren't you worried about not having a better sealant like polyurethane caulk or at least non-polyurethane masonry sealant in case the mortar cracks from ice build up (if you live where it's cold)?


Listen to yourself. You're not satisfied with a proven method that has sufficed for millions of windows around the world for quite some time.

Mortar is not completely airproof nor waterproof, and your caulk is not going to make it so (though it will help). Stop overthinking it. :thumbsup:


----------



## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

A nice slope on the mortar, seal edge with caulk. I have never had a call back for cracked mortar and it is how windows in basements have been installed for years, just now we use vinyl instead of wood.


----------



## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

Oh BTW, vinyl expands an contracts length wise, not depth of window. By foaming the frame it can still expand side to side and top/bottom while still in the mortar "track", with the edge caulked you will have no problems.


----------



## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

Tscarborough said:


> Neither picture is correct. Masonry to vinyl or wood or metal is always a soft joint, period.


the 'do this' picture has no masonry to vinyl/wood/metal.



dom-mas said:


> it really seems like you are making something simple into a complicated 4 step process, how big is the gap between the window and the masonry...is the masonry stone or block?


the gap is 1-2" in some places so I great stuff, then polyurethane mason caulk over the great stuff once expanded and trimmed.





dom-mas said:


> mortar is fine to fill the space between window frame and surrounding masonry but it WILL crack where it meets the vinyl (or wood or aluminum)...so after the mortar has cured caulk between the mortar and the window. I cut a small key into the joint so the caulk is more than just pasted on
> 
> anytime 2 dissimilar [products meet there needs to be an allowance for movement...a soft joint, mortar is the opposite of a soft joint


yes, my method has no mortar to vinyl contact. Everyone's saying Don't put mortar to vinyl because it will crack, then they say the opposite that they 'mortar and caulk the joint only'. e.g the "not this" illustration. The rest of the mortar on the vinyl besides the caulked joint 'will' crack.

I don't want this to turn into a pissing competition but my method is better for a basic window replacement. It's like $6.50 more in materials per window for polyurethane caulk, but if the house settles, or if the mortar takes a beatin from ice, there's nothing to worry about with high-end sealant underneath.
Even if the mortar doesn't stick to the polyurethane caulk, it doesn't matter, just caulk the joint on top where they meet so ice can't get between the mortar and caulk.


sidenote, if you can find it: 

ARCAFLEX FLEXIBLE JOINT MORTAR can be applied on cement, tiling, metal and PVC. Adheres excellently to all building materials
ARCAFLEX FLEXIBLE JOINT MORTAR is ideal for use where increased flexibility and durability are required
ARCAFLEX FLEXIBLE JOINT MORTAR hardens to an elastic waterproofing sealant.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

your "do this" picture shows mortar as a cove on top of caulking...it won't stick to vinyl but it won't stick to caulking either!!!!!!! Caulking WILL stick to cured mortar but mortar won't stick to caulking. If the joint is 2" wide cap it with aluminum, if you think mortar will look better than that you're nuts.

anyway I'm done...maybe better to have this discussion in the windows and doors section cause you certainly don't like what any of us have to say


----------



## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

as noted, the mortar doesn't have to adhere to the cured polyurethane caulk. It probably will anyway especially with slurry bonder, but I can caulk over the seam where the mortar meets the polyurethane caulk, sort of like the 'not this' picture, so ice is less likely to get in between and bust up the mortar. I wouldn't put metal trim on the inside of the window in an unfinished basement.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

wtf


----------



## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

You are way over thinking this.

Put a sealer over the mortar then and caulk the joint but the mortar should not fail.


----------



## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

well I heard back from loctite, and they said they don't recommend putting mortar or sealant over the Loctite PL S10 Polyurethane Concrete Crack & Masonry Sealant. 
So it's either just caulk, or composite trim after caulk, or caulk then tool and dust with sand that matches existing finish, and/or paint the s10 which it says is okay. 
I don't trust mortar not cracking from settling, harsh weather etc.


----------



## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

gunner666 said:


> well I heard back from loctite, and they said they don't recommend putting mortar or sealant over the Loctite PL S10 Polyurethane Concrete Crack & Masonry Sealant.
> So it's either just caulk, or composite trim after caulk, or caulk then tool and dust with sand that matches existing finish, and/or paint the s10 which it says is okay.
> I don't trust mortar not cracking from settling, harsh weather etc.


And you had this same thread going in the diy chat room too. All it took was a loctite rep to convince you...not respected guys in the field? I highly doubt you're a contractor and if you are, god help your clients.


----------



## gunner666 (Jul 16, 2014)

no one but the loctite rep (as recommended to ask by the first reply) said that mortar isn't compatible with loctite np1 masonry sealant - as in that chemically, mortar might degrade the np1. 

And just saying, '_Put a sealer over the mortar then and caulk the joint but the mortar should not fail.'_ If you were referring to NP1 loctite polyurethane masonry, it isn't supposed to go over sealer either.


"mortar is fine to fill the space between window frame and surrounding masonry but it WILL crack where it meets the vinyl (or wood or aluminum)...so after the mortar has cured caulk between the mortar and the window. I cut a small key into the joint so the caulk is more than just pasted on

anytime 2 dissimilar [products meet there needs to be an allowance for movement...a soft joint, mortar is the opposite of a soft joint "

exactly, that why I wanted to np1 everything then mortar over it.


----------



## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

gunner666 said:


> ..... that why I wanted to np1 everything then mortar over it.


:wallbash::blink:


----------



## brhokel606 (Mar 7, 2014)

gunner666 said:


> no one but the loctite rep (as recommended to ask by the first reply) said that mortar isn't compatible with loctite np1 masonry sealant - as in that chemically, mortar might degrade the np1.
> 
> And just saying, '_Put a sealer over the mortar then and caulk the joint but the mortar should not fail.'_ If you were referring to NP1 loctite polyurethane masonry, it isn't supposed to go over sealer either.
> 
> ...


Dude, I am not trying to offend but dang, why re-invent the wheel. Motar and then caulk, if you mortar correctly and mix correctly it will not crack. If it does in 10 years, chip it out and redo of just caulk it then....it really is that simple.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Maybe you should investigate perma-*****, or some other latex log chinking system. Hopefully it will put this ridiculous thread to an end


----------

