# Need advice....kinda long



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

blacktop said:


> I believe I could have figured this guy out long before pricing the job.
> 
> Sometimes crazy just jumps out at ya.


Hell I'm getting to where I know from our first phone call.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Hell I'm getting to where I know from our first phone call.


Yes....most times. Although now and then I still seem to give too much benefit of the doubt and end up wasting my time looking at a project anyway that I won't touch. For sure though, during that meeting........the gut knows what it knows.


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## Reaper81 (Nov 30, 2015)

I appreciate all the feedback that everyone has taken their time to give me. I know I have alot to learn yet when it comes to dealing with people and seeing the red flags that seasoned contractors see immediately.

I just don't feel warm and fuzzy framing corners with anything less than 2X4's, especially with a small bump out wall. If it were a ceiling I wouldn't have any problem using furring strips attached to the floor joists.

I see two options of giving the HO....I rip it out and rip the 2X4's down for an extra price and any cracking is void, or leave it as is and finish the job.

Thanks again for everyone's advice.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

I suppose, in a case like this one you tell the customer that since he did not give you exact dimensions for the walls then he automatically gave you permissions to use your discretion. Therefore, the customer is ultimately liable for any changes.

There are millions of homes being built every day and plumbers install shower faucets with shower heads at fairly standard heights. Virtually, no
plumber asks a customer what the height of the shower head should be and every once in a while a customer complains after the walls are tiled. Guess who pays if they want the shower raised. The customer can't come to us and tell us we did the job wrong. Well...they could, but read my company's yelp reviews and you will see how I handle their problem.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

People have learned how to be professional victims. He didn't give you specifics so you used your best discretion and now he wants to pretend you'd know how he was going to view it after the fact. I would charge for the changes and get that straightened out before proceeding with anything else.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

pcplumber said:


> I suppose, in a case like this one you tell the customer that since he did not give you exact dimensions for the walls then he automatically gave you permissions to use your discretion. Therefore, the customer is ultimately liable for any changes.
> 
> There are millions of homes being built every day and plumbers install shower faucets with shower heads at fairly standard heights. Virtually, no
> plumber asks a customer what the height of the shower head should be and every once in a while a customer complains after the walls are tiled. Guess who pays if they want the shower raised. The customer can't come to us and tell us we did the job wrong. Well...they could, but read my company's yelp reviews and you will see how I handle their problem.




Wouldn't it be more proactive to ask the homeowner to approve the shower head height? I usually don't do this, but if the homeowner happens to be taller I make the effort to review this with them.


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## noweare (Apr 6, 2008)

I have my PITA antenna up when I meet with the customer and go over a job. I have been known to refer those jobs to my competition. I even warn my competition about the custy too. Then I hear the horror stories and get to say "I told you so". LOL


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

mrcharles said:


> Wouldn't it be more proactive to ask the homeowner to approve the shower head height? I usually don't do this, but if the homeowner happens to be taller I make the effort to review this with them.


Right. Whenever something is up for variables I'll have that discussion with the HO. Let them make a decision if they'd like, otherwise if they don't have an opinion I'll use my best judgement. But they've been given the opportunity to get that variable how they want it in their house. 
Like the shower head height....I just finished up a bathroom that they stated they wanted it extra high for the rain head and their growing 6' son. I placed it where I thought was ok @ 81"..... as high as I could within where the original plan was for onyx wall height. Then put the shower arm/head in and let them check it out. Yep, we ended up raising it another 2 inches, including the onyx wall height plan, and they got exactly what they wanted before covering everything up.


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## Reaper81 (Nov 30, 2015)

I'm going to meet with him in the afternoon and I'm going to expect him to eat any labor costs to change the framing of the wall or the wall stays. If not, then I'm going to pack my tools and make a phone call to the city building department about his absence of permits for the electrical and plumbing that has been done. Professional or not, I don't really care. I have two plowing contractors that still owe me over $2k. That's always left a bitter taste in my mouth.

Hopefully it doesn't go this way but I'm not working for free or even pay him to fix his house with my time. 

I did ask for what he expected for a wall, was very ambiguous other than where it was not to exceed. Its that simple. I'm not going to sweat loosing $600 compared to what some contractors get screwed out of.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

mrcharles said:


> Wouldn't it be more proactive to ask the homeowner to approve the shower head height? I usually don't do this, but if the homeowner happens to be taller I make the effort to review this with them.


I install all at or above 80".


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

mrcharles said:


> Wouldn't it be more proactive to ask the homeowner to approve the shower head height? I usually don't do this, but if the homeowner happens to be taller I make the effort to review this with them.


If I see a customer is extra tall I will ask, but maybe his wife is a midget. In 43 years, I think I had two customers who wanted a shower head higher than where we installed it.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

The showerhead needs to be a little over 6" above the shower tubs. So that I can run my second coat with a 6"


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

pcplumber said:


> If I see a customer is extra tall I will ask, but maybe his wife is a midget. In 43 years, I think I had two customers who wanted a shower head higher than where we installed it.


Why would raising the shower head for a little person be an issue? Doesn't gravity do is job regardless of the height? 

Nearly all of my customers ask for it to be higher.


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

To the original poster, try not let people get under your skin. I may not be the best person for this advice, cause there's some customers out here that will make a preacher cuss. You run into these people from time to time.

The man I'm working for now is 77 years old and very, very aggravating to be around. (He has watched EVERY brick be laid) 

I respectfully address his every concern, talk out his silly request, and even take time to offer him a bottle of water or my sandwich at break time :thumbsup:

I knew how he was when I took the job. Needless to say he is paying more to get his house bricked than the next person.

But at the end of the day, I've made money, and He's very happy with the service I provided.

In your situation, just talk it out. You will be fine.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Reaper81 said:


> I just don't feel warm and fuzzy framing corners with anything less than 2X4's, especially with a small bump out wall.


This isn't a critique - just some information on how to do it so it will be strong and not have a lot of flex in the wall.

That small bump out seems chase sized to me, so I'd frame it like a chase. You don't have to rip 2X4s down to 2X2 for the framing. Use a 2X whatever top and bottom plate (these are usually ripped if space is really tight) and use regular 2X4s for the rest of the framing. The corners are made from 2 2X4s nailed together to form an "L". They are plenty strong and won't move much. Any infill studs should be on 12" centers (code allows 16") or you'll tend to get a lot of wall flex. Solid block @ 4' off the floor.

Twisted studs have to be avoided - they're a much bigger problem when you put them on the flat.

I avoid framing on the flat when possible, but sometimes space makes it a necessity. On the longer wall sections (8-10') I've done, I'll screw a 4X4 horizontal to hold the studs in a plane before putting in the solid blocking, then screw and glue drywall to the other side, let it cure, then take the 4X4 down and screw and glue the drywall to that side.

There is plenty of strength in framing on the flat using 2X4 studs. Flex can make it seem flimsy, so just take some steps to make it less flexible.

JMO and experience.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

blacktop said:


> The showerhead needs to be a little over 6" above the shower tubs. So that I can run my second coat with a 6"


Maybe, midgets can't reach the shower head to adjust the angle. Don't ask me why people pull on the shower heads and shear the shower arm off at the elbow inside the wall. This is the wrong forum to explain my theory and the same is true for bathtub spouts and curtain rods. I am talking about where the curtain rods are mounted because they should be attached to the tile or marble for strength and not to the plaster wall.

Actually, I forgot that the perfect height for a shower head is 57 inches above the top of the bathtub because most often the tile, marble, etc. is 60 inches above the rim of the tub and it is always better to have the shower and protruding through the tile vs. coming through plaster or drywall where water leaks and splashing and pulling (for whatever reason) on the shower arm causes the arm to loosen and/or break inside the wall. The same is true for shower stalls. When the shower walls are 5 or 6 feet high I like the shower arm to be 3 inches or more below the top edge. I always put bathtub spouts 3 inches above the tub rim because if you put them higher the water coming out of the spout flares at an angle, the water hits the top corner of the tile wall and pours onto the bathroom floor.

You know I have logical answers for everything and I will continue to teach you everything I know. This thread is about whether or not a contractor has the right to use his discretion to build and install things according to standard sizes when the customers do not give the contractor blueprints nor specific measurements. We would have to talk about the pros and cons about every measurement for several hours and most customers are going to ask us what the correct measurements are, anyway, and tell us to use our discretion. Then, even worse, if we ask the customer for their opinion we will have insane customers thinking they are smarter than us and we will be installing things that look hideous based on their ignorant recommendations.

While I seldom have problems with customers regarding measurements I have had customers complain, after installation, about the standard height of door knobs, light switches and wall plug receptacles both near the floor and the most complained about problem I have is the height of wall plug receptacles above kitchen counter tops and in bathrooms. I've had a few customers complain about wall furnaces being too close to the floor and too far above the floor even when installed according to the recommended specs.

You can't always win even when you try, but I would rather take my chances vs. having to spend several hours debating insignificant details and that puts us in a position where the customer starts to think we are stupid and we need to rely on their input and intelligence. Then, you will be asking the question regarding why your customer is micro-managing your job. It is because you asked your customer for their opinions vs. just giving solid advice.

In the case of building the walls for a washer and dryer, I would have discussed the dimensions, first, but since the dimensions were not discussed nor on paper then so-be-it. The liability falls on the customer for not asking and for not providing even a hand-drawn blueprint. The customer should not wait until the job is finished to see if he likes the dimensions.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Reaper81 said:


> 2. I can only make the bottom plate this small to fit around the plumbing which I've already done and I don't think its wise to rip 2x4's for framing, nails need something to bite into, and I'm sure as hell not coming back to fix cracks for free if the corners crack.


FWIW, framing on the flat is more expensive. First, the studs have to be hand picked to be as straight as you can get, then there are the other details (added blocking, glue and screw) that are needed. Plus top and bottom plates are best predrilled and screwed in place. A 2X2 plate is a little easy to split.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

pcplumber said:


> Maybe, midgets can't reach the shower head to adjust the angle. Don't ask me why people pull on the shower heads and shear the shower arm off at the elbow inside the wall. This is the wrong forum to explain my theory and the same is true for bathtub spouts and curtain rods. I am talking about where the curtain rods are mounted because they should be attached to the tile or marble for strength and not to the plaster wall.
> 
> Actually, I forgot that the perfect height for a shower head is 57 inches above the top of the bathtub because most often the tile, marble, etc. is 60 inches above the rim of the tub and it is always better to have the shower and protruding through the tile vs. coming through plaster or drywall where water leaks and splashing and pulling (for whatever reason) on the shower arm causes the arm to loosen and/or break inside the wall. The same is true for shower stalls. When the shower walls are 5 or 6 feet high I like the shower arm to be 3 inches or more below the top edge. I always put bathtub spouts 3 inches above the tub rim because if you put them higher the water coming out of the spout flares at an angle, the water hits the top corner of the tile wall and pours onto the bathroom floor.
> 
> ...


57" is far from prefect, IMO. I'm not worried about a little person seeing that they are the exception and not the rule. I've also never seen or heard of someone shearing the head or elbow off. Again I think this is the exception, not the rule. 

60" makes no sense, you are barely over 6' if even.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

The shower heads in my house are 84" from the floor. I wouldn't want them even an inch lower.


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## XJCraver (Dec 21, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> 57" is far from prefect, IMO. I'm not worried about a little person seeing that they are the exception and not the rule. *I've also never seen or heard of someone shearing the head or elbow off.* Again I think this is the exception, not the rule.
> 
> 60" makes no sense, you are barely over 6' if even.



Haven't been in many rentals, have you.


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## Reaper81 (Nov 30, 2015)

I worked it out with him. All he wanted was one side shrunk down with a 2X2 bottom plate. But I also asked for more $ since it was more work for me, he agreed.

He also agreed to pay me for the work I've done and said he and his wife are very happy with how the finish work is going. This usually (in my experience) equates to a tip. So everybody is happy, I made a few extra dollars, and I get to see the job finished. 

It's a win win.


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

Nicely done Reaper81. You kept your cool and created value for both yourself and customer.


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