# Who still hand drives?



## Richard Sims (Jun 12, 2012)

*Hand Drives*

Mostly use guns now but its fun to hand drive from time to time.
Young guys are clueless when it come to hand driving. 
Maybe it an area thing, in Colorado the lumber is kiln dried and harder than the lumber I used in CA.
2003 I had a large copper ceiling to glue and hand nail, average age of my crew was 45. Trusted most of the crew to hand drive.
2010 I had another copper ceiling and the average age of my crew was 30. That time I nailed it myself. 
What no copper nails for the finish gun.... The younger guys really did not know how to nail by hand. They could not believe we use to do it every day all day.
I was a set and sink guy never got the slam it home on one hit with no set.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Richard Sims said:


> Mostly use guns now but its fun to hand drive from time to time. Young guys are clueless when it come to hand driving. Maybe it an area thing, in Colorado the lumber is kiln dried and harder than the lumber I used in CA. 2003 I had a large copper ceiling to glue and hand nail, average age of my crew was 45. Trusted most of the crew to hand drive. 2010 I had another copper ceiling and the average age of my crew was 30. That time I nailed it myself. What no copper nails for the finish gun.... The younger guys really did not know how to nail by hand. They could not believe we use to do it every day all day. I was a set and sink guy never got the slam it home on one hit with no set.



Slamming it home on one hit with no set, is very risky.


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## Hand Drive (Sep 6, 2011)

Richard Sims said:


> Mostly use guns now but its fun to hand drive from time to time.
> Young guys are clueless when it come to hand driving.
> Maybe it an area thing, in Colorado the lumber is kiln dried and harder than the lumber I used in CA.
> 2003 I had a large copper ceiling to glue and hand nail, average age of my crew was 45. Trusted most of the crew to hand drive.
> ...


I learned to hand nail on a 1960's house we repaired all the fascia on back in the 90's and had to re nail tight all the sub fascia. I had a 16 oz estwing with real hand drive 16 D nails and the sub fascia was heart wood like concrete. after lots of cussing I figured out how to get a full arm swing in and knock it home, after bending so many nails. the guy teaching me was happy I learned and I know that is where I learned to drive a nail. WE did a few hand driven decks also with 2x4 decking and 16 or 20 penny galvi nails, it is fun at first but after a few days I just wanted my arm back. one of those decks is where I learned to switch arms and still nail all day. Now I really prefer a nail gun or a well placed screw but feel good that I can hand nail the s#!t out of stuff


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

His name is Hand Drive. Phenomenal!


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

I don't think there's any excuse for a framer to not be at least competent at hand driving (one to set it, two to sink it). I use a gun for almost all nailing tasks, but still come across multiple situations on a daily basis that are best suited for hand-nailing. And if you're doing something everyday, you might as well be good at it.

Side note: I'm sure there's at least a few great framers who actually can't consistently set and sink as I described. Don't take offence if you're one of them.

Side note 2: Saw a not-so-great framer on the next job site trying to hand-bang today… Was happy I wasn't person writing this guy's checks.


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## Birch (Jul 20, 2009)

I remember hand-banging days. If you choked up on the hammer, "Boss" would cut the handle off for a better fit for you. Get caught nailing off the decking while sliding down the slope on your butt would get your shirt-tail hand nailed to the deck. Lol, good memories. Corner boards and rake trim was "pre-loaded" by the sawyer to help the assembler speed up and reach out.

What gets me is waiting on a guy to get-it-together and put a nail/pin in something, setting the first few starter rafters or pinning a wall brace for instance. The guy at the bottom needs to hand-drive if he doesn't have a gun handy, not run off to reroute a hose, or disrupt a ground man to get him one, while the top guy is waiting on him. Decking a roof is also faster worked and tacked down by hand then machine gunned later. I'll get the first course nailed while the top edge can be used as a hand hold, but then it's "go man go" from there up and send a man back to gun it down. Toe-boards get hand nailed.

There are a lot of places where a few hand drives will speed up production. 

Another tip for occasional hand-driving is to use those free/cheap cloth nail bags. I like to cut the strings off and cut them in half at the pencil pocket, then use them as tool-bag inserts for the nails I need. When I'm finished with them I can leave the cloth bag in the box for next time and my bags don't get cluttered, mixed, or unnecessarily heavy. I also use tool blocks to organize hand tools and make them easy to access or remove.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

Birch said:


> Another tip for occasional hand-driving is to use those free/cheap cloth nail bags. I like to cut the strings off and cut them in half at the pencil pocket, then use them as tool-bag inserts for the nails I need. When I'm finished with them I can leave the cloth bag in the box for next time and my bags don't get cluttered, mixed, or unnecessarily heavy.


Hey I like that.

Somebody gave me a couple of those recently. Might have to steal that.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

framed and sheeted the first floor deck today and I barely touched a gun. intentionally used my left a lot too, just to get better with it.


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## steex (Feb 19, 2013)

I used to go to bed with sore arms and busted up thumbs and dream about a modified pair of brass knuckles with a big steel plate on the front for punching nails in weird spots. It would be like the hand banging version of the palm nailer. Maybe one day I will get around to welding one up.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

asgoodasdead said:


> framed and sheeted the first floor deck today and I barely touched a gun. intentionally used my left a lot too, just to get better with it.


I had an unofficial goal to be able to finish nail with my left hand by the end of the year.

Goal not entirely met. Ok, not met at all. I should probably start framing with the left first. It's more acceptable to mutilate a 2x4.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

Easy Gibson said:


> I had an unofficial goal to be able to finish nail with my left hand by the end of the year.
> 
> Goal not entirely met. Ok, not met at all. I should probably start framing with the left first. It's more acceptable to mutilate a 2x4.


my problem is more with mutilating my fingers while setting the nail. I can bang set nails with my left all day. just working on setting


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Aside from the Hammer Challenges I & II and Cole's traveling hammer, I haven't used a hammer to hand drive much of anything but vinyl siding. When I started practicing for the first hammer challenge, I couldn't find my rhythm to save my life.

After a few practice sessions though, I had gotten back about 75 to 80% of my efficiency of the hand drive framing days. I fell apart after only 5 or 6 minutes of nailing.....instead of hours of incessant nailing.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

You've got a much better "reload" hand than I do.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

asgoodasdead said:


> http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000I1KH5O?vs=1
> 
> just returned a kobalt fiberglass 20 oz rip hammer to Lowes for a refund after abusing it for almost 3 months :laughing: I also have a 22 oz estwing and 16 oz estwing (got them both for free) but the 16 is just too short, the 22 is too long, and neither have a magnetic nail starter. looked at this hammer in Lowes but it was $27 plus tax. got it off amazon for $21 shipped.


an update on this hammer after using it for a week; it's awesome. it's easily the best out of all the hammers I've used so far and the "perfect hammer" I was searching for. for me anyway. it's all preference and this thing was tailor made for my needs.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Lazers on saws, compressors, nails guns... was just thinking today I feel like I am getting a little laze with all these... :blink:


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

actually used a saw with a laser on it last week and was like "well this is pointless" and turned it off


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

KAP said:


> Lazers on saws, compressors, nails guns... was just thinking today I feel like I am getting a little laze with all these... :blink:


We've been jacking up a house slowly over the last month, and i needed a few more 20 ton bottle jacks, and I was at Lowe's so I grabbed some kobalt ones and they have a laser on them, wtf?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

asgoodasdead said:


> actually used a saw with a laser on it last week and was like "well this is pointless" and turned it off


I like to say that when they make a saw with a laser that actually does the cutting, sign me up!! Until then, nah!


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

jlsconstruction said:


> We've been jacking up a house slowly over the last month, and i needed a few more 20 ton bottle jacks, and I was at Lowe's so I grabbed some kobalt ones and they have a laser on them, wtf?


You mean this one:









They also list 12 ton with a laser and a 2 1/4ton trolley jack with laser on there site. I'm thinking somewhere in the back of my mind I recall Kobalt coming out with a whole line of tools with useless lasers.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Dustincoc said:


> You mean this one:
> 
> They also list 12 ton with a laser and a 2 1/4ton trolley jack with laser on there site. I'm thinking somewhere in the back of my mind I recall Kobalt coming out with a whole line of tools with useless lasers.


Mine don't look so nice after a few days of work, but that would be the one


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

asgoodasdead said:


> actually used a saw with a laser on it last week and was like "well this is pointless" and turned it off


I used my miter saw with a laser today and it seemed to work pretty well.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

I think the laser on the mitre saw is useful in the sense that it lets you get your board centered on the blade really quickly. I mean, the laser is way too fat to use as a guide, but it gets your pencil mark to the edge of the blade really fast. Whatever, I'm ok with it.


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## steex (Feb 19, 2013)

I thought you were joking about the bottle jack having a laser, but it's true. That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_10359-20535-85007_0__?productId=3339168


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

The kobalt beer koozie with laser helps to center the drinking hole to the mouth


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Easy Gibson said:


> I think the laser on the mitre saw is useful in the sense that it lets you get your board centered on the blade really quickly. I mean, the laser is way too fat to use as a guide, but it gets your pencil mark to the edge of the blade really fast. Whatever, I'm ok with it.


You lost me on that one (easy to do). My blade comes down on the right side of my laser line. I don't like furry lines though so I don't buy cheap lasers, but even some good lasers will fur out over enough of a distance. Never had that problem at 8 or so inches though. Might want to get a better saw.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

My dewalt has a light that casts a shadow over Tue blade and give a perfect line where its going to cut. Good for about a 64th. I usually don't like dewalt but I like that saw.


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## Hand Drive (Sep 6, 2011)

around me a laser on a bottle jack will quickly become a busted muddy laser in the dumpster. whoever came up with the idea is OK but the direct application of that idea in most construction environments leaves much to wonder


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

EricBrancard said:


> I used my miter saw with a laser today and it seemed to work pretty well.


miter box, yes. this was a circular saw.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

jlsconstruction said:


> My dewalt... give a perfect line where its going to cut. Good for about a 64th.


 You're three times better than I am because I can barely see a 16th....


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## Dustincoc (Sep 14, 2011)

asgoodasdead said:


> miter box, yes. this was a circular saw.


On of my old jobs had a circular saw with a laser. I only found it useful for cutting a straight line on sheet goods. It just magified any variation from the line so it was easier to stay straight. I'm thinking it was a Porter Cable but it may have been Craftsman since most of the power tools there were Craftsman.


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

Laser on a straight line rip saw...wait, noone here uses one lol


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## asevereid (Jan 30, 2012)

We utilize guns as much as possible, but yesterday we forgot to get the correct nails for doubled 2x6 pt plates...so it was a good day to get back into the swing of things.
We had few pounds of hdg 3" nails so I got to work.
Didn't take long to get the technique working again: nail in the nail set, set it, drive it home in 1 to 3 swings.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Small bits of framing get hand nailed. We hand nail our housewrap. I hate lugging a hose around with a gun for that. Hand nail our window flanges...


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

overanalyze said:


> Small bits of framing get hand nailed. We hand nail our housewrap. I hate lugging a hose around with a gun for that. Hand nail our window flanges...


Same here. Also hand nail our roof paper.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

the rare times we do roof paper or housewrap we use tackhammers and staple it. windows we tack with hand nails and then someone goes around with a roofing gun to nail them all off afterwards. goes faster.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Warren said:


> Same here. Also hand nail our roof paper.


We quit installing our roof paper unless it's a small one. We use a hammer stapler to attach housewrap around openings.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

I'M certainly not against nail guns,own a bunch my self. What will get my goat every time though are whole joists or rafters with missed nails or nails just "nicking" the target. Even if you caught it and re nailed the joist ,go back and pull those missed nails,do not leave that unsightly mess for the world to see.

The biggest problem with nail guns that are real tough to correct are over driven fasteners. If the guys can not dial in the gun to set the nail heads properly, leave your nail guns in the truck on my job sites. 

http://www.tecotested.com/techtips/pdf/tt_overdrivenfasteners


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## Hand Drive (Sep 6, 2011)

fjn said:


> I'M certainly not against nail guns,own a bunch my self. What will get my goat every time though are whole joists or rafters with missed nails or nails just "nicking" the target. Even if you caught it and re nailed the joist ,go back and pull those missed nails,do not leave that unsightly mess for the world to see.
> 
> The biggest problem with nail guns that are real tough to correct are over driven fasteners. If the guys can not dial in the gun to set the nail heads properly, leave your nail guns in the truck on my job sites.
> 
> http://www.tecotested.com/techtips/pdf/tt_overdrivenfasteners


worked with this one dude putting down pt decking and he was setting the freaking nails halfway through the 1" decking. told him we did not want standing water ponds at the nail holes and to figure that sh!t out.


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

Was thinking about this thread yesterday. We were nailing on joist hangers. I got on 15 to my helpers 3. He wasn't slacking, just not great at hand nailing. I reminded him that when I started we didn't have air nailers. They were out there, we just didn't have them. They were still a luxury. When he started we use air nailers 99% of the time. He hasn't had to drive as many by hand. If I did more hangers I would have a nailer for them. Maybe I'll pick up a palm driver. It would have paid for itself yesterday. Of course he would have missed out on a memory. Hitting your thumb is bad, but when it is between the hammer and the edge of the hanger, you remember it more.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

we do like 100 hangers and hurricane clips on every house and we don't have a gun or palm nailer. just bang em in. the nails are so short they go fast.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

well i'll be damned. I was taught to pyramid the shingles by full shingle then cut 10" off a shingle and use the big side, then half a shingle, then the 10" piece. then repeat


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## PatChap (Jun 1, 2012)

tyb525 said:


> This guy is pretty fast.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4E8Dsto-LY&feature=youtube_gdata_player


I goto that contest every spring, free lunch :whistling 
Winner of that particular contest, fastest nails in a minute is usually around 65. 
Fun to watch, my best is like 30 but im fat and lazy.


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXxAyrZ0HxI&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

tyb525 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXxAyrZ0HxI&feature=youtube_gdata_player



Fast nailer, but slow roofer


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

these videos are nuts. and I agree. they nail super fast, but lose time doing everything else.


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## PatChap (Jun 1, 2012)

I guess hand nailing shingles isn't common where you guys live? Nailing like that looks impressive but its really nothing special, its all in the feeder hand.
New construction here is 90% hand nails still. Hand nailing isn't a lot slower, but guns are a ****load easier.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

every roofer around here uses guns


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

I can't believe I'm watching videos of other people driving nails with this much interest.

I totally tuned out Netflix and started link hopping hammer videos.


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

Easy Gibson said:


> I can't believe I'm watching videos of other people driving nails with this much interest.
> 
> I totally tuned out Netflix and started link hopping hammer videos.


Glad I'm not the only one that loves watching them


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

asgoodasdead said:


> you seriously hand nail that rarely?


When I framed full time I hand nailed a decent amount but it's been a few years and I'm no longer doing that. Hand nailing is pretty rare now, I wish I could do it more often.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

ahh thought you were a framer. we use guns for most things but still manage to tear through a 50 lb box of 10s rather quickly on a job.


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## 413Sean (Jan 6, 2012)

asgoodasdead said:


> ahh thought you were a framer. we use guns for most things but still manage to tear through a 50 lb box of 10s rather quickly on a job.


Same here, ol timer once told me, "a good carpenter loads his bags up every mourning, even tho those damn nail guns have taken over", I remind my guys all the time to load up the bags with handbangers 8's and spikes all the time


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

When I did frame I always had 2 1/2" and 3 1/2" nails in my pouches. I would use half or more each day. Nowadays with the renovation gig all the hammer gets used for is demo and setting finishing nails.


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## Hand Drive (Sep 6, 2011)

413Sean said:


> Same here, ol timer once told me, "a good carpenter loads his bags up every mourning, even tho those damn nail guns have taken over", I remind my guys all the time to load up the bags with handbangers 8's and spikes all the time


No problem with that but I always seem to be unloading my nail bags from too many accumulated mass assorted nails that take forever to find what I'm looking for. I've got buckets of left overs that need sorting out in the shop starting from the early 90's, every handful in the buckets went through the " damn this bag needs emptying". that plus 20 years equals lot a nails and some plaster dust too


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## steex (Feb 19, 2013)

I used to have a foreman who was faster hand nailing than I was with a gun. He had trained in a Shaolin monastery and made us call him sensai. His nail pouch hung from a black belt and these were his hammers.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

If you're not joking, I demand video.


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## 413Sean (Jan 6, 2012)

Hand Drive said:


> No problem with that but I always seem to be unloading my nail bags from too many accumulated mass assorted nails that take forever to find what I'm looking for. I've got buckets of left overs that need sorting out in the shop starting from the early 90's, every handful in the buckets went through the " damn this bag needs emptying". that plus 20 years equals lot a nails and some plaster dust too


Well I call that a farmers mix.. I frame fulltime, its either 8s or spikers in the bags, and one of the snobs that works for me likes duplex nails.,Whitch actually come in handy...I always considered those concrete boys nails tho....whistling


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## Hand Drive (Sep 6, 2011)

413Sean said:


> Well I call that a farmers mix.. I frame fulltime, its either 8s or spikers in the bags, and one of the snobs that works for me likes duplex nails.,Whitch actually come in handy...I always considered those concrete boys nails tho....whistling


I've done it all under the sun almost so my nail assortment involves every nail/screw ever made and then more and the problem is the job jumping doing one thing one day and another the next never using the exact same nail or screw. one day the nails/screws match the job and the next day needs a whole new nail/screw assortment for the job. for me to take the time to assort them on the spot ain't happenin so in the bucket they go until I get a round to it :no:


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## CJ21 (Aug 11, 2007)

Hand driving works petty good for me thou.


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

Hand Drive said:


> I've done it all under the sun almost so my nail assortment involves every nail/screw ever made and then more and the problem is the job jumping doing one thing one day and another the next never using the exact same nail or screw. one day the nails/screws match the job and the next day needs a whole new nail/screw assortment for the job. for me to take the time to assort them on the spot ain't happenin so in the bucket they go until I get a round to it :no:


Yeah that kind of thing makes me want to switch to doin one trade only, jumping from job to job sucks sometimes.

I was painting trim Thursday, Friday I was pouring a 14x24 slab in 25 degree weather. So having to change your setup all the time sucks sometimes.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Ah yes trail mix. Robby screws 2" and 3", tapcons, framing nails, duplex nails, hex head screws...


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

FramingPro said:


> Ah yes trail mix. Robby screws 2" and 3", tapcons, framing nails, duplex nails, hex head screws...


AKA stems 'n seeds. At the end of most jobs it all gets thrown on the shop floor. Strips of gun nails, big sds screws, and stainless get sorted out. The rest gets swept up and tossed.


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