# Why Has It Become "OK" To Look Down On A Person Who Works With Their Hands?



## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Pretty amazing how we get from A to B with a string, a tape, a level, and a saw. Pretty amazing how a raw floor can turn into a work of art by a man on his knees. Pretty amazing how that plumber makes all that waste water flow downhill and away from you and yours. I've been in the business for 30+ and it's still amazing. The people who look down on you are jealous because they don't have the patience or the knowledge to do it right


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Most people just don't know what it takes to do what we do. I'm just slapping a few boards together and slopping on some finish. Even the simplest of projects requires many multiples of steps, procedures and tools to get from start to finish.

Most of the time they think that the things I build come in parts and all I am doing is putting it together like a puzzle. What they don't realize is I build the puzzle pcs too.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Leo G said:


> Most people just don't know what it takes to do what we do. I'm just slapping a few boards together and slopping on some finish. Even the simplest of projects requires many multiples of steps, procedures and tools to get from start to finish.
> 
> Most of the time they think that the things I build come in parts and all I am doing is putting it together like a puzzle. What they don't realize is I build the puzzle pcs too.


I had a neighbor build his own house years ago. He had a big plan for the septic system that would save him a ton of money.

He was going to have an excavator delivered Friday afternoon. He was going to do all the digging Friday after work and Saturday morning. Then Saturday afternoon, we was having the excavator picked up and a skidloader delivered so he could backfill Sunday after he set everything in the ground.

He called the skidloader off when he was still digging Saturday morning. Sunday... digging.

Monday, he called work and took a vacation day. Still digging.

Tuesday, he called work and took another vacation day. Still digging.

Wednesday, he called work and took yet another vacation day. Still digging.

Thursday, he asks to use my transit do he could get the slope right. (Yes, I'm an electrician and I _do _own a transit)

Friday, he finally gets done digging and starts to set everything in the ground. But he's out of vacation at work so he calls in sick.

Saturday, he finally has the skidloader delivered so he can backfill. And he still is backfilling Sunday.

Not only has he taken 5 days off work (two unpaid, three he lost 24 hours of paid vacation), he had to drive into town with gas cans to buy fuel.

By late Sunday night, he's finally done with the bulk of the septic system. He makes arrangements for the skidloader to be picked up Monday morning while he's back at work.



Did he save any money?




Before you answer that, keep in mind he apparently didn't understand how to read a leveling rod (yes, I have one of those, too!). He thought it was divided into inches and eighths, so he used that to set the slope. Nope... my rod is marked 1/10th and 1/50th of a foot.



















So 6 months after moving in, he had to dig the whole damn system up.







:whistling


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

This past spring when I was taking my apprenticeship training I had a couple friends there the taking a respiratory specialist course (loads of hot girls in that class). Anyway, we were sitting down to lunch and they asked me what I had lined up in my schedule for classes. So I said I had Theory followed by blueprinting and shop. They looked at me funny and asked "Why would you possibly need theory for banging wood together?" After I explained that we need to be able to frame a house to code without use of an engineer (within reason), understand the legal process in getting a bare plot of land ready for building, and understanding the multiple layers of a blueprint and how it all fits together they seemed taken aback by how involved the whole process is. Some people are just ignorant of it and I understand that. There's more to skilled work than meets the eye. 

I also live in oil country where there are many tradesmen so I don't notice as much of the belittlement as some others here have experienced.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

On my way home last night after working all day I stopped to get a few beers and a burger with my lead, I was a little dirty, so was he, but not that bad. Anyways 3 guys at the bar were cracking jokes about us and giggling like a bunch of girls. We ended up leaving right behind them, they didn't leave a tip for starters, and second I kinda chuckled when they climbed into a rotted out late 90s crown Vic as I was getting in my truck. All those fancy clothes are doing them we'll I see


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## chewy (May 23, 2010)

jlsconstruction said:


> On my way home last night after working all day I stopped to get a few beers and a burger with my lead, I was a little dirty, so was he, but not that bad. Anyways 3 guys at the bar were cracking jokes about us and giggling like a bunch of girls. We ended up leaving right behind them, they didn't leave a tip for starters, and second I kinda chuckled when they climbed into a rotted out late 90s crown Vic as I was getting in my truck. All those fancy clothes are doing them we'll I see


Your a better man than I.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Well, way back in the 80's the chicks dug construction workers. It was cool to be in the trades. We lived in an upscale neighborhood where I grew up in the 70's. My father was a contractor and my mother didn't work. Something happened along the way. I have an idea what it is but I don't want to start a pissing match.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

chewy said:


> Your a better man than I.


Definitely more mature than me :thumbsup:


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> I had a neighbor build his own house years ago. He had a big plan for the septic system that would save him a ton of money.
> 
> He was going to have an excavator delivered Friday afternoon. He was going to do all the digging Friday after work and Saturday morning. Then Saturday afternoon, we was having the excavator picked up and a skidloader delivered so he could backfill Sunday after he set everything in the ground.
> 
> ...


That's a pretty funny story. Live and Learn. An expensive lesson. Around these parts now days you have to call in the state DNR for a perc test after submitting a site plan, technical data, etc etc. based on soil conditions they will tell what's req and how and if you can proceed. Probably cheaper to buy a composting toilet or two and discharge your grey water into the woods (don't get caught, although I still see this every now and then)


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> That's a pretty funny story. Live and Learn. An expensive lesson. Around these parts now days you have to call in the state DNR for a perc test after submitting a site plan, technical data, etc etc. based on soil conditions they will tell what's req and how and if you can proceed. Probably cheaper to buy a composting toilet or two and discharge your grey water into the woods (don't get caught, although I still see this every now and then)


After a site survey, perc test, maybe a soils test, CE must design septic system.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

griz said:


> After a site survey, perc test, maybe a soils test, CE must design septic system.


They are going with 3 chambered tanks around here now. 30 dimes and up bigger one 50


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

In my opinion, universities are no longer about education,they are about getting bodies in seats for the tuition that it generates.
Three year programs are now four, fours are now five. BA's are no longer any good, you have to have a masters.
All about big buisiness.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

B.D.R. said:


> In my opinion, universities are no longer about education,they are about getting bodies in seats for the tuition that it generates. Three year programs are now four, fours are now five. BA's are no longer any good, you have to have a masters. All about big buisiness.


And you still can't get a job after all of it


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

jlsconstruction said:


> And you still can't get a job after all of it


Nah.....they can still get jobs.

The girl who makes my coffee and bagel in the morning has a Masters.

The guy who waits on me at my favorite local restaurant has a Phd.

My bartender is also a man of many degrees.

I try and take care of them, and not look down upon them for being inferior to us. Those poor kids just couldn't cut it on the job, it's not their fault.:jester:

As for the girls in the bar. In my experience, modern women are starving for MEN, actual uncastrated, hold open a door, pick up the check, defend their honor......MEN. Easy pickin's .....when a cross between Woody Allen and John Denver is your competition.


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## lawndart (Dec 3, 2006)

I haven't noticed any negativity towards me in all the years I'm doing this. My customers treat me with respect, because I demand it as a professional business person.

My wife and I both have BS degrees. She is a registered nurse that works at the local hospital. This affords me the opportunity to meet/interact with all types of people, many of them doctors, lawyers, and upper management/administration.

What I've discovered over many dinner conversations is:

1. I make more money than most of them.
2. They have a mutual respect for me, and the way I operate my business.
3. They deal with many of the same problems in business that we do.
4. Many of them wish that they were doing "something else"
5. They are buried deeply in debt by student loans in excess of 200K.
6. Some of them have no business being in business. They don't understand very basic things like markups, margins, marketing, etc...
7. They will pay me top dollar to work in their lavish homes, that they can barely afford.
8. If and when I do get sick, I will have access to some of the best doctors in my area.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

I used to sit in a cubicle behind a computer all day. I had a cool gig though and I got to go play in the super high security server rooms as well. :thumbsup:

Occasionally people don't believe I do any kind of physical work. They don't say it but I can tell by how they act. Mostly I get positive feedback.

Once.....oh this was a fun one.....ONCE, I had this other mom from the school make a big point to invite me to a coffee club she and her friends do. So if front of all of them she says "You should come for coffee.....oh.....I forgot.....you........*work*." 

Now - she didn't know a lot about business because her husband had just started his mortgage broker business late into the housing boom and they were new to the area. She should have been kissing my butt for the referrals since we work with so many home owners and had been for years prior. Plus, I had done IT work for the biggest real estate company in the area and so I know tons of agents. 

Nope....she looked down her pointed beak at me and to make a long story short - his business collapsed with the real estate market, everything they owned went into foreclosure, and they moved back to wherever they came from. :clap:

I don't know that my connections would have prevented all that but I still do enjoy the fact it all went belly up. :laughing:


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## Rock Headed (Nov 8, 2007)

Good article, from the art of manliness, about the artisan archetype in american society:

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/09/07/3-archetypes-of-american-manliness-part-ii-the-heroic-artisan/

Two excerpts:



> At the beginning of the 19th century, America was a nation of Heroic Artisans. Nine out of every ten American men owned their own shop, store, or small farm. However, this ideal of manliness would soon move from reality to archetype. As the United States became more industrialized throughout the 19th century, the Heroic Artisan quickly became nearly obsolete. Work that once required the knowledge and skill of a master craftsman could be done cheaper and faster with a machine.......





> Yet the pull of the Heroic Artisan archetype is still felt by many men, a standard by which they unconsciously measure their lives. In fact, the further we move away from the Heroic Artisan archetype, the more we seem to long to be connected to it. No matter the ubiquity and prestige of white-collar work, there’s something deep in the male consciousness which longs to be working with one’s hands in some way. It is also what drives the masculine appreciation for quality, well-crafted goods. We admire and wish to support our craftsmen brothers, even if we ourselves will never belong to the guild. We want to know that real brow sweat and passion went into making something.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

To answer the OP's question as to why it's OK to look down on someone who uses their hands...

It starts in our school system. There is such a push to be #1 in the tech sector that we are forsaking all other crafts. Everything from the arts to home economics, to the industrial trades are now thought of as being areas where you'll never make any money. 

The other day I was doing a service call. Sometimes kids like to watch what I am doing and ask questions which is great because they are naturally curious. A few minutes later the HO scolds his kid. Later he explains to me that he doesn't want his kid to grow up to be a manual laborer so he has to keep him away from things of that type that might interest him. :blink:

Also, back in the late 90's and early 2000's when the internet boom was at its peak, there were high school kids who believed that the only kind of businesses in existence would be internet based by the year 2010. 

So I asked a couple of them, "What would happen if your plumbing failed? Or what if you had a hole in your roof? Or what if you got a toothache? Certainly you don't believe that you can fix that over the internet do you?":laughing:

But of course every wise @$$ teenager has an explanation for everything because they think that they know everything. :laughing:

But one thing that I do.. and I must do it.. to some of the people who look down on what I do, I give them a hard time when they need my help. Not for the sake of being mean or vindictive but when they minimize my skills as something that "anyone" can do, I politely excuse myself from the situation and recommend that they get someone else. 

THEN when they realize that nobody else can/will do it, then I start upping the price. :whistling


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

tedanderson said:


> Sometimes kids like to watch what I am doing and ask questions which is great because they are naturally curious. A few minutes later the HO scolds his kid. Later he explains to me that he doesn't want his kid to grow up to be a manual laborer so he has to keep him away from things of that type that might interest him. :blink:


Some kind of Starbucks intellectual weak ass tofu farting ferry dad that was... No doubt an Obama voter. I hope you told him he was an ass hat of a dad and then twisted his nose with a pipe wrench.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I really don't think this is a problem I have noticed at all in my area. Maybe just you big city folk.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

I think its great some look down on us. In '04 everyone was a contractor and it became difficult for the unknowing potential client to reduce hackery from carpentry. Now its pretty simple that the platform has moved to a more professional businesses in the trades to decipher professionalism. A lot of my clients, I only have about 6 throughout the year, said they knew from my previous work and the fact I made it from '07 to '11 without a hiccup that I was "their" guy.

My customers are the ones who employ those bumbling 20 something's looking to make themselves feel good about their indebted degree's. I welcome the stereotype because usually they shut up when they see some lowlife like me eating dinner on their bosses invitation. Point being people who have made something of themselves usually don't bother looking down their nose at anyone knowing if you're good a piece of paper wont prove it.

It is what it is, if you aren't comfortable in your own skin than you're in the wrong profession whether it be a suit and tie or jeans and a hardhat.


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## Live_oak (Jul 22, 2013)

Many people don't understand the skilled portion of the skilled labor. They don't understand that there's just as much to learn to do any skilled labor job well as there is to be able to do software integration. 

Conversely, there's a lot of people who don't understand what goes into a lot of white collar jobs either. I have a friend on Wall Street, and I _certainly_ don't understand that world! 

We're in the age of specialization. There shouldn't be any stigma attached to working with your hands. Or, working within your head. Or any type of work. Period. People who get paid for non criminal behavior, no matter what it might be, are contributing to making this country run. Not that criminal enterprises don't contribute to the GNP...but that's a whole other subject.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Think of it another way. They have to master thinking in whatever field they are in. We have to master that along with working with our hands. And for the self employed you have to learn how to wear 10 hats.


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## ajabbott88 (Nov 26, 2013)

gbruzze1 said:


> I was out to dinner last night with a friend of mine and his wife. He has a job working behind a computer, compiling data or something like that. What exactly he does is irrelevant. Anyway, he bought his first house a year ago and has done/has plans for a lot of work. Every time we meet up he updates me on the work he's done, what needs to be done, etc. I will never do any work for him because I know the type that he is. He wants the cheapest possible price, but then is going to complain when the job looks like crap. And a lot of the work he does himself, and when it looks like crap he says its good enough no one can tell. Anyway, my gripe and how it relates to trades people is this. He has all these jobs he wants done and wants to do it himself. So he says, I wanna build a deck in my backyard, do you think I could build a deck? I say gee I don't know, but its a little tricky if you've never done it before. He says well my brother in law has built two decks so ill have him help me, what do you think? Yea sure I suppose you could then. Next thing he says, I need to drywall my dining room, do you think I could do that myself? Again, I explain to him I can't say, it all depends on his skill set, his tool set, etc., but that if he has never done it before he might have some trouble and make it real tough to tape and finish. He figures he can save some money and do it himself. Next I ask him if he ever got that roof repaired. He tells me he did and the guys did a terrible job but its ok because it's a flat roof and you can't really see it from the outside. So I ask why didn't you call my roofer? Oh his price was too high. Oh ok, so instead you went with the cheap guy and got a crap job. Sounds about right. Then we talk about the entry and storm door he had installed by Home Depot. Explains that the door doesn't close properly and neither does the storm, but that he thinks if he had the installers back to fix it they would just screw it up even more, So basically, everything he has paid to have done, he's gone with the lowest price and gotten a crap job and complained. Everything he has done himself, he has screwed up and convinced himself its fine. So how does this relate to trades people being looked down upon? People like my friend have this idea that because we work with our hands and get dirty, we are basically doing grunt work that any ape could do. A lot of his questions when he's trying to determine if he could do something himself are, well it can't be that hard, right? It's the attitude that skilled labor doesn't take much skill, this strange devalue of a persons biggest investment, their house, and the reinforcement in these people's minds that skilled labor is not skilled by so many trades people working for peanuts fighting for scraps. And as was mentioned above a big contribution to that is big box stores that thrive on the DIY and the DIY shows that make people believe that yes, building a house is so easy a caveman could do it. It sickens me talking to him. I tell him that he's making a mistake and its not as easy as it looks. I explain to him everything involved in doing the job right to which he always replies, I'm not doing all that I just want it done cheap. Well then don't complain to me when it looks like crap.


Skilled labor isn't cheap. Cheap labor isn't skilled.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

Fresh out of high school, (university wasn't an option) I worked in a land titles and land registry office, suit and tie almost killed me.
I then went to college for a year to be an apprentice heavy equipment mechanic, I didn't like dirty fingernails and oh de diesel. I switched to structural steel fabricator and became a journeyman. I learned to weld and became a fabricator welder.
The market dried up in the 80's and I moved on to carpentry, knowing that I wanted to be self employed.(another year in college).
It has been a long road, but I have now been in renovations for almost 30 yrs, 20 self employed.
I may not be the best, or most talented, but I have payed a lot of dues.
I don't feel that I need to take a back seat to anyone.
Especially, some one who had their parents pay there way.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

When was the last time you seen a suit get up at 5:00 to head out for work? You can't look down on that!:no:


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Lack of social status is a very real problem in the trades. No one, even guys in the trades, wants their daughter to marry a tradesman. Everyone thinks their precious girl deserves a doctor or lawyer.


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## mstrat (Jul 10, 2013)

blacktop said:


> When was the last time you seen a suit get up at 5:00 to head out for work? You can't look down on that!:no:


...when's the last time you saw me wake up at 5:00? :whistling
Ok...ok...ok...it was about a month ago.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Kowboy said:


> Lack of social status is a very real problem in the trades. No one, even guys in the trades, wants their daughter to marry a tradesman. Everyone thinks their precious girl deserves a doctor or lawyer.


My wife is very happy she married a tradesman. I'm Mr Fixit. And unlike a lot of Mr Fixit's, I really can fix stuff.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

So are the trades looked down upon because of the assumed lack of income? That seems to be what most posts imply.


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## thehockeydman (Dec 19, 2012)

Kowboy said:


> Lack of social status is a very real problem in the trades. No one, even guys in the trades, wants their daughter to marry a tradesman. Everyone thinks their precious girl deserves a doctor or lawyer.


Not you again….

Kowboy and I have quite opposing views on this subject. I can share my views from both sides of the fence, as in addition to being a framer, I'm also the founder and president of a start-up company that I've grown into a viable business (a so-called "high status" occupation).

I find it amusing to conduct little "experiments" whenever people ask me what I do for a living. Sometimes I'll tell them I'm an entrepreneur, sometimes I'll tell them I'm a framer. While people generally react the same when they hear about my company, the way they respond to my trades background is quite interesting.

I've found that with the trades, it all depends on how you present yourself. If you say, "I work in residential construction," people seem to get the stereotype of some drug addict, burnt out, alcoholic guy doing manual labor. However, when you say "I'm a carpenter who specializes in high-end, custom home framing," people tend to see you as someone who's skill level is above and beyond what most people possess, and you get the social status that comes with it.

I think the same could be said in someways for white collar jobs. "I work in an office building" is a lot different from "I'm the Senior VP of Marketing." As skilled tradespeople, I think it is our responsibility to present ourselves and our work in a way that gets us the social status we deserve.

Regarding women, girls love a man who knows how to work with his hands. Furthermore, when I met my last girlfriend's parents, I introduced myself as a carpenter. It wound up being by far the best first meeting I've ever had with a girl's parents. Finally, I question the integrity of any man who bases his life or career choices on what his girl's parents might think about him. Make your own decisions in life, and be strong enough to stand by them. Even if others question or look down on them.


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

I think most of my customers get it. Occasionally I'll get someone who says "I could do it, but I don't have the time or don't want to." Sometimes they are right about it since I do some pretty basic repairs/maintenance, other times they are laughably wrong.

Money is part of it. Culture is part of it. For some reason there is a view of plumbers as guys under the sink or on their knees fixing a toilet with their butt crack showing. Pretty unfair since they're the ones who allow you to take a piss inside at 2am instead of going into the freezing cold outhouse. They're the ones who give you running water instead of having to hoof it from the creek each day.

We all play some role in society. I happen to think that trademen are more vital than average, but pretty much everyone does something important for someone so I'm not a huge fan of looking down on what people do for a living. That said, half of wall street could probably stop working and it wouldn't bother me.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

BamBamm5144 said:


> So are the trades looked down upon because of the assumed lack of income? That seems to be what most posts imply.


Actually I think it's a presumed lack of education. A lot of people believe we came to the trades because of last resort. What they don't realize is a lot of us were born into the trades from proud people before us. My father is pushing 90 and ran a fairly large contracting business, when I say fairly large I'm talking 300 to 400 homes at a time. He is a very dignified person, and tradesmen were very much respected back then. I can remember when people looked at us with a lot more respect also. I think it's the mindset of this country. They've taken a lot of the labor out of our workforce and made us a country full of service workers.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

I was taught like this, life is a ladder and the tradesman is the first step,
everyone steps on you when the go up the ladder of life, and back on you again when they come down.


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## Master Mechanic (Oct 25, 2006)

This is an interesting thread. In my household, My wife and I are on two completely sides of the professional spectrum, but we both work with our hands. She's an Ivy educated grad(Yale) and currently finishing up her Trauma Surgery Fellowship. She knew at the age of 4 she wanted to be a surgeon. 

I on the other hand have 65 college credits and started my business at the age of 23. At the age of 4 I knew I wanted to be a contractor. 

With that out of the way, all of my wife's colleagues have never looked down on me for what I do. I tell them how much I love what I do and they see how passionate I am about my trade. A lot of my wife's medical students and residents have Dads that are lowly contractors. Even my old bosses oldest daughter is currently in medical school. My old boss also had a BA in political science, which gave him credibility. 

The difference is how we come off. You have your contractors that are clean cut, somewhat educated, and are respectful. Then you have the majority of "tradesman". They reek of smoke, have raggy clothes on, and work to spend their money at the bar. Those people are the reason why we tend to looked down upon in the white collar world. 

I'm sometimes ashamed to be in this trade because of that persona. I'm almost at the point I will not even hire a sub if they smoke, because my clients would frown upon it. I don't blame them. 

Last point. I used to own a boat. Whenever I had an early day and headed to the marina, the guys on the outside with all of the big boats were always there, hanging out, having fun. I became friendly with them over the years and started asking them how can you spend so much time at the marina? 5 out of 10 of them were semi retired contractors that went into real estate. They lived off of their real estate income. I'll take that career path any day.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Master Mechanic said:


> Then you have the majority of "tradesman". They reek of smoke, have raggy clothes on, and work to spend their money at the bar.
> 
> :blink: Hey! Watch It man!:laughing:


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## Master Mechanic (Oct 25, 2006)

blacktop said:


> Master Mechanic said:
> 
> 
> > Then you have the majority of "tradesman". They reek of smoke, have raggy clothes on, and work to spend their money at the bar.
> ...


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Most roofers are losers


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Most roofers are losers


Right up there with another trade I'm familiar with.:whistling:laughing:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

blacktop said:


> Right up there with another trade I'm familiar with.:whistling:laughing:


Hmm drywall?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

svronthmve said:


> This post is so full of BS i don't even know where to start.... (Your perception does not necessarily make things reality! )


I started to comment, but he's too far gone I believe to convince of anything.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Master Mechanic said:


> blacktop said:
> 
> 
> > Lol, I know I might offend a few guys in here :sad: but it's the truth.
> ...


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## Zendik (Sep 18, 2005)

svronthmve said:


> This post is so full of BS i don't even know where to start....
> 
> (Your perception does not necessarily make things reality! )


You have no where to start.

Are you in Oregon?
Here:
http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/trd/4241540750.html

$16-$20 an hour for a lead drywall guy.

Sorry, but in 1996 when I came to this state lead drywall guys were making $20 - $25. Now, I have to ask just how you would be able to call BS on me if you live in upstate NY and besides that why would I lay down some BS anyway?

The only thing I can see "wrong" with my post is I didn't clarify where I was.
So I'll just do that now. 
In Oregon AND southwestern Washington it is as I posted.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Zendik said:


> You have no where to start. Are you in Oregon? Here: http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/trd/4241540750.html $16-$20 an hour for a lead drywall guy. Sorry, but in 1996 when I came to this state lead drywall guys were making $20 - $25. Now, I have to ask just how you would be able to call BS on me if you live in upstate NY and besides that why would I lay down some BS anyway? The only thing I can see "wrong" with my post is I didn't clarify where I was. So I'll just do that now. In Oregon AND southwestern Washington it is as I posted.


There is a lot of guys on this forum who aren't in the union, who I can bet drive much better vehicles then you and possibly own a fleet of vehicles.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I make more then your whole "package" plus benefits. 


Union guys drive me nuts. I'm not a sheet rocker but my leads make more then you to, and they don't get laid off


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

jlsconstruction said:


> I make more then your whole "package" plus benefits. Union guys drive me nuts. I'm not a sheet rocker but my leads make more then you to, and they don't get laid off


And you pay them this because they've earned it, not because you have to? What a concept


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> And you pay them this because they've earned it, not because you have to? What a concept


Absolutely, I gave it to them, and I can take it away, if need be


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

jlsconstruction said:


> Absolutely, I gave it to them, and I can take it away, if need be


So you base you guys pay on performance? Unphucking real


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

blacktop said:


> Well ...I don't guess you'll be hiring me anytime soon:whistling btw....My inspection runs out in 2015! :laughing:


Hilarious, my truck looks just like it. My inspection sticker expired in 02 though


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## Zendik (Sep 18, 2005)

jlsconstruction said:


> I make more then your whole "package" plus benefits.
> 
> 
> Union guys drive me nuts. I'm not a sheet rocker but my leads make more then you to, and they don't get laid off


Sure thing man.


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

Zendik said:


> You have no where to start.
> 
> Are you in Oregon?
> Here:
> ...


Well.....

I know how to spell correctly and punctuate properly.

I understand how business works.

I also understand how govt screws things up.

These are essential components in my BS sniffing meter.

I think I'll stand by my initial judgment call.

Thanks for attempting to "enlighten" me though.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Zendik said:


> You have no where to start.
> 
> Are you in Oregon?
> Here:
> ...


You are in an area of the country that lives, breathes, and promotes unions and labor vs. evil capitalists...

I hate to break this news to you, but the days of the unions are coming to an end. And I will add one more voice to the few who have kind of pointed this out to you. I work in construction, meaning I still get up and hit it every day.....and I could probably buy or sell you with the money in my checking account this morning. I have been in unions shops, and from what I have seen, I would rather let the free market run and determine price then have to pay dues to a slob sitting on his fat ass in an office telling us how the union rules America. 

You have had nothing but positives to say about the union? Check back in a few years and tell us what happens when things go south, for real.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

tccoggs said:


> People should be empowered and free to work on their own homes. DIY allows many people to take on larger projects that also involve pros that they would probably not take on if every task was done by a pro. I wonder if mechanics sit around and bad mouth guys that wrench on their own vehicles on the weekends???


Kind of off the topic here but there is a BIG difference between the two. 

The guy wrenching on his car over the weekend is doing it so that he can get back to work on Monday. He doesn't have the time to leave his car with the mechanic as it is his only mode of transportation. He's not wrenching on his car because he looks down on the mechanic as it being something that anyone can do.

On the other hand, the "weekend warrior" who decides to knock down a few walls and install wall-to-wall wood flooring because he was inspired by something he saw on TV.... SHOULD be empowered to work on his own home but unfortunately guys like that still look down on the guy that has to come bail him out.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I have not read all the posts but have read a few and my opinion is while the "educated" look down upon the laborer does not mean this will always be. In fact as Mike Rowe points out we have a an unbalance of educated tech people but fewer and fewer hands on laborers. This will boil down to supply and demand. While i realize we needed Unions at one time the time of the Union is about to pass. Laws are now in place to enforce what Unions started. Unions are nothing but greed anymore and have become just another political group. In the next 20yrs if not sooner you will see a high demand for the skilled laborer and due to demand we can force the hand with the money to pay more. And who's hand will it be paying? Most likely the "educated" who were looking down on the skilled laborer. I am sure some of you out there see it already. How many of us have gotten service calls where the HO who makes millions a yr has no clue what to do when there is a problem but is willing to make the problem go away at all cost?


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

tedanderson said:


> Kind of off the topic here but there is a BIG difference between the two.
> 
> The guy wrenching on his car over the weekend is doing it so that he can get back to work on Monday. He doesn't have the time to leave his car with the mechanic as it is his only mode of transportation. He's not wrenching on his car because he looks down on the mechanic as it being something that anyone can do.
> 
> On the other hand, the "weekend warrior" who decides to knock down a few walls and install wall-to-wall wood flooring because he was inspired by something he saw on TV.... SHOULD be empowered to work on his own home but unfortunately guys like that still look down on the guy that has to come bail him out.


 I will disagree with this and yes, mechanics do bad mouth those who work on their own cars at home. I was one of them so i know. And why, while i agree people should have the Right to work on their own property people also need to know their limits. Before a person decides to knock down the supports under a load bearing wall it would not hurt to have a professional come in and at least access the work to be done to be sure it can be done safely. Same goes for that shade tree mechanic who thinks they can just start testing wires and splicing because they think they can put their own amp in their car. While one guy has his home falling in the other guy is having his car towed to the dealer because he fried his ECU.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

> While one guy has his home falling in the other guy is having his car towed to the dealer because he fried his ECU.


What it really comes down to is necessity vs. option. Or in our examples, the guy who tried to install the amplifier in his car deserves what he gets because he figured that the guys down at that Speed & Sound shop were just a bunch of low-life grease monkeys. Conversely the guy that spends $15 on a 2x2 sheet of 7/16" plywood and another $30 on a pint of cold process roofing cement to do a roof repair during a week of rain and thunderstorms wouldn't fall into this category simply because he was immediately managing the situation and not looking down on the roofer.


How do you "look down" on a roofer anyway?


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## tccoggs (Dec 17, 2008)

You can tell the end of the union is getting closer because they have already destroyed several industries. Not to defend the us auto industry because they definetly fell asleep on quality and innovation but there was no way they could be competitive in a market where they were forced to pay union labor wages and Honda and Toyota were not. Not having the labor cost meant more money to put into r+d and the parts of the vehicle.

The auto industry is not alone here either. Many of the bankruptcy's of the airlines like united was mainly to get them an exit strategy from labor agreements like the pilots union. I would better that Verizon continues to sell off more and more of it'd traditional business not only due to a change in technology but because there are next to none when it comes to union employees on the wireless side of the business. In the news its becoming commonplace now to read about school districts that are basically doing a reset, firing all the teachers and rehiring them under new pay schemes to break the existing agreements.

I kinda laugh about this fast food thing that is going on now where they feel that they should be paid 15 an hour. I say go for it and when your you get laid off because your customers don't want to pay 1.5x for the same crummy food and take their business elsewhere you will be stuck looking for another job .

You can't manipulate a free market economy for long. It will self correct, its just a matter of time.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Once a the old guard dies from old age the unions will be history. They are the only ones hiring union contractors unless it the state. The new contractors that are moving up will be the ones that will not be hiring union contractors. They will train new workers with new skills for the work that has to be done today. People will either become a drone or start thier own business. The market will decide weather they are good enough to make it.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

I haven't noticed a lot of negativity towards people in the trades and I've lived in Brooklyn and the middle of nowhere. Sure, there are some people like that but, then again, every career has it's detractors.

Most people think it's really cool that I can build and fix stuff while still being able to button my shirt and read a book. Some people think that tradesmen are overpaid for work that anyone can do, I don't worry about that. I can scramble eggs and put them on the table but I still tip at the restaurant. Some people are prejudiced against ******** or poor people but I don't really consider that a prejudice against the trades, the two groups just happen to frequently overlap.


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## ProSweep (Dec 10, 2013)

My stepson is a Junior in High School. I am watching as he and every kid, regardless of their merits or qualifications are being uniformly told to "go to college" by the school and society alike. To be honest, my step-son is not college material and he knows this. The kid is honest, and hard working and yet frequently is looked down on for not embracing the college path.

Not ever job should require a college degree, and not everyone is college material. To me it feels like College is the new High School.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

griz said:


> I agree, but at times a guy has to do whatever to get a check.
> 
> Also the lack of true professionals in any of the trades and the lack of skilled help is a huge issue.
> 
> The BS that the DIY shows put out combined with the big box stores doesn't help either.


That was a heap o' wisdom right there Griz.

Fella that mentored me - commercial x-way bridge carpy all his life - saw man he was. His brother - worked right alongside him.

They knew what they were gong to do each day, every day for 40+ years: Build bridge forming. And looked forward to it. That's it - no advancement to foreman, site manager, no community college. No "enhanced learning experiences". And it was all good.

Well read, thoughtful men, kids all got to go to college. WTF was dead-end about those jobs?

If you drive on ANY overpass/underpass/ramp in Ohio or Michigan, you likely get to drive over their work, some of it going back to the late 50's. I think that is a helluva legacy.


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## Big Rig (Feb 23, 2009)

This is an interesting thread. Today I went under the knife at the dermatologist. Doc was discussing/explaining the procedure to his new nurse, the history behind the research related to the procedure and theories. I was listening intently to this elevated conversation, as it related to my condition. While the verbiage and terms he used were above my education level, I had a general idea of what the discussion was describing. I interjected that I enjoyed listening to the vernacular and the parallels to the remodeling work which we perform. Doc response was that remodeling and dermatology are similar a in that there is investigation, research and planning to achieve the goal intended= a happy client. 
What I took away from my interaction is that if you have a talent or passion which results in a happy client, you should be proud of your accomplishment, no matter what field you practice in. If you are proficient in your chosen profession,it does not matter what others think. If you took a poll, you would be very surprised how jealous those who have no mechanical skills tend to be. 
There are a lot of old school artists retiring from the trades in the next ten years. There are FEW who can fill our shoes. Those who remain in the trades providing superb product and customer service will be in high demand. The internet and YOU TUBE cannot replace us. We are and WILL be needed in the near future. Mechanics, carpenters, plumbers, electricians. 
Do yourself a big favor and begin NOW to set yourself apart from the masses in your chosen profession. Your personal appearance, language and writing skills will weigh heavily in the perception of "working with your hands". Read, research, educate yourself, make a difference for your future. Those who DON'T work with their hands will respect you if you choose to better yourself.


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## Restoration1SF (Dec 19, 2013)

Working with one's hands is not something that should be looked down upon.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

woodchuck2 said:


> my opinion is while the "educated" look down upon the laborer does not mean this will always be.


This comment is what feeds their perception of us. We aren't "laborers" we are skilled tradesman. To me a laborer is the unskilled worker doing the grunt work. Looking down on "laborers" will always be that way because they are uneducated but someone has to do it and start from somewhere.

Tradesman are educated.
I went through a 4 year apprenticeship just like people in college go for 4 years. My apprenticeship was my education.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

realelectrician said:


> *This comment is what feeds their perception of us.* We aren't "laborers" we are skilled tradesman. To me a laborer is the unskilled worker doing the grunt work. *Looking down on "laborers" will always be* that way *because they are uneducated* but someone has to do it and start from somewhere.
> 
> Tradesman are educated.
> I went through a 4 year apprenticeship just like people in college go for 4 years. My apprenticeship was my education.


I shake my head. It's only OK when you do it - now ain't that just the way of the world?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

mstrat said:


> Give it a few more years, we're making a name for ourselves...I mean, as long as we can keep the government agencies off our back, and the hack jobs shown on TV off the air...we'll see changes. I mean...high end plumbers/electricians/masons/framers/drywall contractors around here are charging $50-80/hour...anyone who's looking down on you, make sure it's ok that they're not making more than $100k a year and see who's bringing in the bacon!


THERE!:thumbsup::laughing:


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> I shake my head. It's only OK when you do it - now ain't that just the way of the world?


I was a laborer/helper when i first started. I think it's pretty obvious most laborers aren't educated or else why would they be a laborer? People don't go to college for years to pay back massive debt to be a laborer:whistling


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I was sitting at the bar [many moons ago] And the guy next to me asked ''so what do you do for a living?'' I said drywall.. He said :blink: Dude I'm sorry! We both laughed and I thought it was pretty funny ,but the comment he made has always stuck with me .


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

blacktop said:


> I was sitting at the bar [many moons ago] And the guy next to me asked ''so what do you do for a living?'' I said drywall.. He said :blink: Dude I'm sorry! We both laughed and I thought it was pretty funny ,but the comment he made has always stuck with me .


I always say that do drywallers, roofers, and masons. I've done enough of all to know it sucks. But I respect the guys who do it and do it well.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

realelectrician said:


> This comment is what feeds their perception of us. We aren't "laborers" we are skilled tradesman. To me a laborer is the unskilled worker doing the grunt work. Looking down on "laborers" will always be that way because they are uneducated but someone has to do it and start from somewhere.
> 
> Tradesman are educated.
> I went through a 4 year apprenticeship just like people in college go for 4 years. My apprenticeship was my education.


While i agree with you being a skilled tradesman but even the skilled tradesman has to do grunt work once in a while. Or do we call ourselves skilled ditch diggers when it comes to burying a short powerline? We have all been laborers at one point in time until we learn our trades. We ourselves should not look down upon the unskilled, we were once in those shoes. The rest of Society looks down upon us because we did start out this way and still do work this way on occasion. After all we still do get our hands dirty and strain our backs to get the job done. Meanwhile they sit in their cubicle looking down upon us because they are college educated and think they are better. At least until the lights go out or the crappy overflows on their exotic tile, or the roof begins to leak over their silk sheets or the boiler quits in that ski house they have been neglecting. But, there are some educated who realize they are the Contractors mercy when there is a problem. Most of us although stick to one trade still know many other trades and know how to solve our own problems as well as theirs. IMO knowledge is power, the more you know the better.


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## EarthQuakens (Nov 6, 2012)

Because of people like this

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/lbg/4254921499.html

Then people chose them because they are "reasonable priced" then get mad at us for what we charge to fix their mistakes when everyone thinks we should make It right for them like HGTV does....


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

EarthQuakens said:


> Then people chose them because they are "reasonable priced" then get mad at us for what we charge to fix their mistakes when everyone thinks we should make It right for them like HGTV does....


If I had a dollar for every time someone told me that they blew their budget paying the hack and they want me to be the humanitarian, I could probably pay for one of those jobs.

One thing that always gets me is how people said that they "did" something when they really paid someone to do it. It's one thing to say that you had your kitchen remodeled but I hear people say things like, "I built an island in my kitchen and spent the weekend tearing the tile out.":no:

So when I meet guys like that at a party I'm thinking that they rolled up their sleeves and did the work. But after about 5 minutes of exchanging stories, they get very quiet when they realize that I actually did my own work. 

The conversation usually ends like this- 

Them: So who did you use? What company?
Me: I did it.
Them: Yeah. I know.. but.. who did the work?
Me: I did the work.
Them: [silence]
Me: I got a couple of neighborhood kids to haul out the debris and we got it done in a couple of weekends.
Them: So.... you mean.. you actually opened the wall yourself? Uhh.. where did you find the tools to do something like that? How did you know that you weren't going to break a pipe or something?
Me:


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

EarthQuakens said:


> Because of people like this
> 
> http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/lbg/4254921499.html
> 
> Then people chose them because they are "reasonable priced" then get mad at us for what we charge to fix their mistakes when everyone thinks we should make It right for them like HGTV does....


Those guys that place ads like that are not my competition I could care less. The guy doesn't even leave his name in the ad and only one sentence? If all it took was placing a free ad with one sentence to get work I'd be a billionaire.

The guy might land work in the ghetto making beer money or drug money for his habits but will never make any real money. Not even on my radar.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I can go to McDonald's next year and make more than an union drywaller...


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

And talk about dead end. One option offers earning potential only limited by ones ambition and ability, the other limits earning potential to being a shop supervisor making $80k a year. Guess which one the union job is..

Like stated before. Unions are a dying breed. The lazy and unmotivated have hid under union umbrellas far too long sucking GDP out of our economy...


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

People can think what they want. I for some reason feel proud to be able to take a raw site and build a house on it. Or tear a roof off and add a second story. Most of the people who look down on it would be crying to mama by days end.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I don't ever feel looked down upon. Maybe it happens but I don't let superficial people into my thought process. They might look down at us then think twice when they get our bid...


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

The only time I can ever remember feeling like someone thought my profession was not a good one was when I proposed to my wife (I was a carpenter, MIL didn't understand the potential) and this year when a lady didn't ask me to bid a project because "I didn't look like a builder" when I was placing concrete the day she met me. 

They were both wrong. One knows it now. I could give two chits about the other one.


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## EarthQuakens (Nov 6, 2012)

I just moved to pittsburgh.... Getting offered 12 bucks an hour to use my own tools and truck... Ugh and some of these hacks I've talked to I've just shook my head and walked out after looking at their job. Guess I should start up myself and then look down on them after I fix their chit


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Jaws said:


> Most of the people who look down on it would be crying to mama by days end.


By lunch time!:whistling ......:laughing:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Jaws said:


> The only time I can ever remember feeling like someone thought my profession was not a good one was when I proposed to my wife (I was a carpenter, MIL didn't understand the potential) and this year when a lady didn't ask me to bid a project because "I didn't look like a builder" when I was placing concrete the day she met me.
> 
> They were both wrong. One knows it now. I could give two chits about the other one.


I had silver spoon betty homemaker tell me after asking what I do..''Well I guess someone has to do It!'' I will never forget her name Morons who look down on the trades build homes.:whistling


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

blacktop said:


> I had silver spoon betty homemaker tell me after asking what I do..''Well I guess someone has to do It!'' I will never forget her name Morons who look down on the trades build homes.:whistling


I'd like to see her hubby hang a lid all day :whistling


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Jaws said:


> I'd like to see her hubby hang a lid all day :whistling


You know...Thing is.. her hubby was a welder..And just as stuck up as her..Some people! 

I do feel very fortunate to be able to pick and choose who I work for .But
Most all my work are for general contractors ...And NEVER have I ever been looked down upon by a g/c..:no:


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

I've dealt with homeowners that were skeptical of how much work it actually took to trim a place out and make it look good too. After explaining how we do stair angles, letting them watch our careful process and explaining how we form fit gapless shelving to imperfect walls they realized their ignorance. 

Sometimes it just requires education but then again some people are just dicks. :laughing:


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## EarthQuakens (Nov 6, 2012)

Don't you just set the trim on the floor and shoot a few nails in it. How longs that gotta take geeez! Hahahaha


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

EarthQuakens said:


> Don't you just set the trim on the floor and shoot a few nails in it. How longs that gotta take geeez! Hahahaha


Haha yup that's pretty much all there is to it.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

EarthQuakens said:


> Don't you just set the trim on the floor and shoot a few nails in it. How longs that gotta take geeez! Hahahaha


Ain't that the f/n truth !


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## EarthQuakens (Nov 6, 2012)

I just went through that with the owner on an apartment building... 2 piece 8" base with quarter round... Yup goes up darn near by itself


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## duckdown (Dec 16, 2008)

tonyc56 said:


> Just because you sit in a cubicle typing on a computer all day doesn't make you better than anyone else.


Cubicles are cool in the summer and warm in the winter. I am jealous...


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## tonyc56 (Nov 9, 2008)

> Cubicles are cool in the summer and warm in the winter. I am jealous...


Jealous until the office politics come into play and all the daggers in your back.


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## nthan (Jan 3, 2014)

Hi all, newly registered but have been reading the forum for a while now!

I just wanted to chime in since this very subject played on my mind for a few years.

Here in England, we seem to share very much the same mindset. I live in London so I think it's maybe more natural to come across this problem more often than if you were to live in the sticks.

I come from a family that's been in the trade for generations.

I'm 24, I went straight to college after secondary school (16 years old+) and did 3 years in college doing Carpentry and Joinery.

From the past then, to the present now, I've been in a few different jobs revolving around woodwork. Learnt a little here and there, worked crazy hours whilst my friends boozed it up on week nights because they went to University, worked with both great and bad tradesmen and felt a little downhearted by it all. I thought about other career paths; Audio Engineer, School Teacher, Locksmith..

Long story short, I did a college course in Audio Engineering and the government cut it after 2 years in leaving me hopeless of achieving anything. I was stuck in a part time job in retail thinking "WTF am I doing?!".

I now work for a Loft Conversion firm doing first fix Carpentry and I LOVE it. Back to my roots, grafting hard and learning plenty. The money isn't great at the moment but there is potential. I'm learning my preferred trade amongst a professional team of chippy's and I feel really enthusiastic about it to say the least!
I've always said to myself and others, if you can find a job that gives you satisfaction at the end of the day, you've found your way. This job has that feeling about it and I'm chuffed to bits!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Please enlighten me, what does "chuffed to bits" mean? Welcome to CT by the way.


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## chewy (May 23, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Please enlighten me, what does "chuffed to bits" mean? Welcome to CT by the way.


Very Pleased/Happy.


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## nthan (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks for the welcome and thanks to chewy for explaining!


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## Builderlife (Jan 4, 2014)

The best part is letting them think they are better than you . Meanwhile you laugh all the way to the bank, making more than them . Anyway, who could sit around an office? Sucks


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

I've worked in an office, and worked in a factory,asking for time, off and have two weeks holiday.
I worked hard to get to where I am, and earn a decent living doing what I do.
I love having the choice of busting a** , or taking an afternoon off to go sailing if I want to.
They can look out of their office windows, and watch me sail past with a pop in my hand (if they are lucky).
I don't care if they think that I'm too expensive. :thumbup:


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## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

B.D.R. said:


> They can look out of their office windows, and watch me sail past


Ya baby!!!


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

Nice . :thumbsup:looks like a Hunter
Almost went out today.


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## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

Damn you are lucky! Our season 5, maybe 6 months. Plus you have some beautiful cruising grounds.

Back to the OP. I don't come across it that much actually, perhaps because there is such a shortage of skilled labour here.

And while I can't stand some of the home reno shows, they have without a doubt raised the profile of a trades persons in the eyes of the public.


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## Gregory D (Dec 29, 2013)

I dont worry about the few who look down. I just keep looking forward!!


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