# Tagging white conductor



## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

dielectricunion said:


> Im really inexperienced with 3 phase, but i know MWBC's on single phase (two 110 ungrounded, opposite legs) must have a simultaneous disconnect (handle ties or dual pole).
> 
> I dont know anything about whether or not you can run 3 hots sharing a neutral. Anything i know of the code says no, but im far from an expert or a proper electrician.


Expert or not, I enjoy reading your posts:thumbsup:


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## saynever (Jan 6, 2009)

That wasn't my example tho. LoL. We run 10/6 all the time (3 hots, 3 color coded neutrals, and a ground). But normally it's 3x120v circuits on a 3 pole breaker. Most of the jobs I have been on disallow neutral sharing and the prints spells it out clear as day. 

The office fit out job I'm on now has tons of furniture being fed with mc. 4x10awg ungrounded conductors and 2x8awg up sized neutrals. 4 circuits per piece of furniture. They up sized the neutrals I believe due to the amount of commuter power supplies and other electronics at each workstation. The computer power supplies draw power like a vfd in a non linear fashion, creating voltage clipping, power factor issues, harmonics and I believe can also cause currents on the neutral to be in excess of the current in the ungrounded conductors.

Anyways sorry to derail. 

To recap, remark factory white/grey wires if they are being used as ungrounded conductors. It's code and is the decent thing to do for those who have to come in after you are gone.


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Interesting about computer power supplies. I know very little about that


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## saynever (Jan 6, 2009)

I was wrong. Haha. I asked my Forman today. My understanding was incorrect. Multi wire branches are considered branch circuits which share a neutral. 

You can have a multi circuit cable and not require simultaneous disconnect as long as the circuits are not sharing a neutral. 

Learn something new every day. :laughing:


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

saynever said:


> I was wrong. Haha. I asked my Forman today. My understanding was incorrect. Multi wire branches are considered branch circuits which share a neutral. You can have a multi circuit cable and not require simultaneous disconnect as long as the circuits are not sharing a neutral. Learn something new every day. :laughing:


 oh you thought that all multiconductor cables fell under MWBC?

Ive never used 4 wire cables but id thought they usually had a red, black, white, and white with red line or something so you could keep it paired right.

So a MWBC in 3 phase system can be 3 ungrounded hots sharing 1 grounded neutral? I never thought about it before


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## saynever (Jan 6, 2009)

If its a piece of 3 phase equipment requiring a neutral for say on board electronics then yea. Kinda like a 3 wire to a household electric dryer or range. 

As far as four wire cable, I see black red blue white more often. But again I've only been on commercial jobs. I'm sure the manufacturer makes it many different ways.


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## saynever (Jan 6, 2009)

dielectricunion said:


> Interesting about computer power supplies. I know very little about that


Quick search. Roughly the first hit. Only skimmed the first couple paragraphs. 

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?Idc...stReleased&Rendition=Primary&dDocName=WP10-03


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Im looking for an electrical apprenticeship right now. Are you in a union apprenticeship or through an independent?

I know the scene definitely varies region to region, but im contacting some independent contractors and if that doesnt yield then ill go try and get rejected by the union, just for the hell of it!


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## GCTony (Oct 26, 2012)

Maybe a dumb questions but... In commercial 277 light switch legs, is the white required to be identified (in the switch box and the J box) as a hot using 12/2 MC? I've seen hundreds, maybe thousands I don't recall ever seeing the switch legs identified as "hot"


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

GCTony said:


> Maybe a dumb questions but... In commercial 277 light switch legs, is the white required to be identified (in the switch box and the J box) as a hot using 12/2 MC? I've seen hundreds, maybe thousands I don't recall ever seeing the switch legs identified as "hot"


 code seems to require it. Theres no exclusion for 277 lighting or commercial that i see. Just "use of white, gray insulated conductors 50 volts or more for other than grounded conductor".... Pic of my computer screen PDF... Dpnt have internet


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I owe everyone an apology. The white/gray can be recolored as long as the wiring method is defined as a cable assembly or cord in the NEC. I had to do some checking with others, thus my the delay in responding.

If the conductors are in what is NEC defined as a raceway, recoloring the white/gray conductors would not be code compliant under the NEC.

Again, sorry for the erroneous posts.

Tom


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

tjbnwi said:


> I owe everyone an apology. The white/gray can be recolored as long as the wiring method is defined as a cable assembly or cord in the NEC. I had to do some checking with others, thus my the delay in responding.
> 
> If the conductors are in what is NEC defined as a raceway, recoloring the white/gray conductors would not be code compliant under the NEC.
> 
> ...


Write yourself up! That will teach you damn it. lol


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> I owe everyone an apology. The white/gray can be recolored as long as the wiring method is defined as a cable assembly or cord in the NEC. I had to do some checking with others, thus my the delay in responding.
> 
> If the conductors are in what is NEC defined as a raceway, recoloring the white/gray conductors would not be code compliant under the NEC.
> 
> ...


That makes sense - if you can pull individual conductors, you have no excuse.


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## saynever (Jan 6, 2009)

dielectricunion said:


> Im looking for an electrical apprenticeship right now. Are you in a union apprenticeship or through an independent?
> 
> I know the scene definitely varies region to region, but im contacting some independent contractors and if that doesnt yield then ill go try and get rejected by the union, just for the hell of it!



Union. I am in class with guys who were non union prior. Most of them say the non union vs union thing is over blown. Some of them think if you get in with a good non union, the overall pay and working conditions are pretty much the same if your local has a lot on unemployment. 

I didn't know anyone in the trade, union or non union. I knew the union had a regimented apprenticeship program. I wasn't aware of the non union state apprenticeship until after the fact. 

Like most things in life, you get out of it what you put into it. That applies to both on the job and in the classroom.


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

The fact that the union program is very structured and includes lots of course work is appealing, but i know there are plenty of non union companies that send apprentices to tech school courses and use other forms of book learning.

Its probably just one of those things where ill have to get info case by case (if i can even find anyone seeking).

I am 31 and I wonder if that will be unattractive to potential employers; they may prefer straight out of high school (im just making an assumption, i have no idea)


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

I work with a mix of guys....some started young and it's all they know. Others like me have done other things and started later in life. The guys who only know electrical have a harder time in service work IMHO as they are not as familiar with framing and how things were built. Thats actually how i met the oldman I was working with last year, his guy made a mess out of a simple new service and run of 2 circuits on a house I was Roofing. Were talking holes all over when he only needed to open up above the panel which had to be done anyways.

@41 yrs of age I can out think several of the young guys and be more productive, even if i don;t move as fast.


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Red Adobe said:


> I work with a mix of guys....some started young and it's all they know. Others like me have done other things and started later in life. The guys who only know electrical have a harder time in service work IMHO as they are not as familiar with framing and how things were built. Thats actually how i met the oldman I was working with last year, his guy made a mess out of a simple new service and run of 2 circuits on a house I was Roofing. Were talking holes all over when he only needed to open up above the panel which had to be done anyways. @41 yrs of age I can out think several of the young guys and be more productive, even if i don;t move as fast.


I am thankful that most of my experience is in navigating old, layered, and jerry rigged buildings. I can imagine anyone who has only worked with newer construction would have a nightmare of a time meshing into old work in unpredictable buildings.

Since i didnt grow up around any trades, there was never any opportunity or thought in my head to get involved with it until stumbling in during my mid - later 20's. My high school barely had a shop class and it was mostly just a hang out period for guys on the football team (teacher was coach)


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