# cement board as shower pan



## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

I see your website links to Schluter. I said before it's a good product. There is room for both of us out there


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

just trying to show you that the material cost is made up on the labor end. Lot quicker vs less material money there is room for you if your system can be approved by my local building dept.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

I wanted to add that I am giving you the :thumbup: for being inventive and trying new things. I don't know exactly what it is you are doing, but I will wait and see how your product progresses. 

I am a big Schluter supporter - every job is orange!! However, that does not mean I will not look at other options. 

However, you must be able to prove that your methods/materials will work - and that involves a lot of $$ doing proper testing. Field testing does not cut it (with me anyway)

One other thing... you need to post threads like this (IMO) in the tile section or bath section - it was just lucky I found it.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

How about a quick basic explanation on how the system works? I'd really like to know how you're going to get a board of durock to bend to the drain, while giving it full support from underneath.. Does the board get cut up into pie wedges, or is it left whole? How does it attach to the drain? Any particular drain necessary? What if the drain is off center, or at the far end in a rectangular shower? (think tub replacement) How do you waterproof it, and how does the waterproofing continue above the curb height? 

You're introducing an idea that seems absolutely ridiculous to a group of professionals who know tried and true methods. If you want a serious discussion on this, you need to give a lot more details on your new system. 


Introduce your idea over at the John Bridge tile forum... You'll get feedback from a lot of guys who do nothing but tile all day long. Actually, I'm surprised you didnt find that forum first... It's practically number 1 on Google when you search for anything tile related. http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/index.php Include details!


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Alex,
I need to stay fuzzy on this until after the Total Solutions conference on Sept. 17-18. I'm sorry. I have a non-disclosure agreement with a couple of entities and I will be able to give the details after that. I am a professional of 39 years in the trade a can appreciate your frustration when someone says he has a better mousetrap and then won't show it. No we don't cut the board into pie shapes, PermaBase and Durock are the two boards that will work. A vinyl liner gets clamped into the clamping ring of a standard two part drain ( oatey , Sioux Chief). Liquid water proofing like Mapei Aqua defense or LATICRETE 9235, hydro ban are used at different intervals to actually "waterproof" the cement board, fiber mesh is used to "tape" all corners and wall to floor, verticle wall corners and threshold. AND a SECRET as to how the board is pitched with FULL support under. Again I'm sorry for the need to be so vague at this time. I will try the JohnBridge site and continue to post on this site after I am legally able to. Please be patient.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

pgc555 said:


> Alex,
> I need to stay fuzzy on this until after the Total Solutions conference on Sept. 17-18. I'm sorry. I have a non-disclosure agreement with a couple of entities and I will be able to give the details after that. I am a professional of 39 years in the trade a can appreciate your frustration when someone says he has a better mousetrap and then won't show it. No we don't cut the board into pie shapes, PermaBase and Durock are the two boards that will work. A vinyl liner gets clamped into the clamping ring of a standard two part drain ( oatey , Sioux Chief). Liquid water proofing like Mapei Aqua defense or LATICRETE 9235, hydro ban are used at different intervals to actually "waterproof" the cement board, fiber mesh is used to "tape" all corners and wall to floor, verticle wall corners and threshold. AND a SECRET as to how the board is pitched with FULL support under. Again I'm sorry for the need to be so vague at this time. I will try the JohnBridge site and continue to post on this site after I am legally able to. Please be patient.


I doubt it's a secret. 

Again, using sloped backers as a pre-slope is no new thing. My only curiosity is the mortar bed on top of it. That's a hard one to make idiot proof for a DIY-er but there are tricks to that as well (screed guides from fins, pipes, etc.)

I wasn't aware the home centers were selling mesh based anti-fracture/waterproofing membranes like 9235. Maybe this is something new in other markets but certainly not mine.


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## S Winklepleck (Jul 31, 2009)

DIYers should be putting in Jacuzzi shower pans IMO, not trying to do a presloped mud base for tile. They're going to do something wrong and cause an issue. The reason the seasoned vets can charge what they charge is because they know what mistakes can cause issues and how to avoid them. A product that can be used by Joe Schmo the HO is not only going to get people thinking they can do their own bathroom remodels, but get more unlisenced handymen doing it and screwing it up too. I guess we should thank you, though. We'll be around to fix the water damage and the poor plumbing, electrical, and whatever else the DIYer did wrong because they thought they could do their own bathroom remodel.


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Again I can take all of these responses as valid concerns. Not all people ( Harry Homeowner ) would try
to do this type of work anyway. The trade pro's will be the guys that I will need to convince and I KNOW
that this will be a large task. As for 9235 being a mesh based anti/fracture, it's a liquid waterproofer.
Brushes or rolls on. In our market, outside of Chicago, fabric is available at the Home Depots and Menards


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

pgc555 said:


> Again I can take all of these responses as valid concerns. Not all people ( Harry Homeowner ) would try
> to do this type of work anyway. The trade pro's will be the guys that I will need to convince and I KNOW
> that this will be a large task. As for 9235 being a mesh based anti/fracture, it's a liquid waterproofer.
> Brushes or rolls on. In our market, outside of Chicago, fabric is available at the Home Depots and Menards


9235 is a TWO part system comprised of the liquid AND the mesh/fabric.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Hydroban is Laticrete's liquid only waterproofer.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

Steve, there's nothing wrong with a homeowner doing their own mud pan... It's not a difficult thing to learn, and deck mud is so cheap, one can easily afford the 10 bucks to replace a wavy shower floor the next day if necessary. I see DIY'ers doing it day in, day out over at the tile forum, and you'd be surprised at some of the results. Truly spectacular! (Okay, some of them are horrific in the eyes of the pro's, but with the friendly advice over there, I'd bet the horrific looking ones at least wont leak) I dont worry about helping the HO's over there, they're not taking food off my table. My reputation keeps me plenty busy. 

I still wonder about this new secret invention... A vinyl liner under the wonderboard, and 9235 over it... I'm guessing the vinyl is there in case anything gets past the 9235, in which case you're left with some soaked cement board that will just get funky over time. 

Since I'm buying a vinyl pan liner anyway, I may as well just get a few bags of deck mud and go at it... That 9235 is expensive pookey... 

(For the record though, I only build Kerdi showers... Orange is my favorite color :thumbup: )


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## S Winklepleck (Jul 31, 2009)

it's hard to tell what of what you said was sarcasm :shifty:


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

I wasnt being sarcastic at all... It doesnt always have to be Contractors vs. Homeowners.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

I framed this soak tub, wrapped it in bending ply.... wire mesh... mortar... then lined and wrapped it in 9235 before installing the tile. Leaked like a sieve the first time and had to be re-lined. :furious::furious:

9235 is rated for fountains but I'll never use it inside again. (and putting it in the hands of a rookie is almost criminal.)

It was one of the biggest PITA projects I've ever gone through. 9235 used to be all I used for steam showers--I'll never go back after using Kerdi.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Where's Bud Cline when you need him? :whistling


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

ChrWright said:


> I framed this soak tub, wrapped it in bending ply.... wire mesh... mortar... then lined and wrapped it in 9235 before installing the tile. Leaked like a sieve the first time and had to be re-lined. :furious::furious:
> 
> 9235 is rated for fountains but I'll never use it inside again. (and putting it in the hands of a rookie is almost criminal.)
> 
> It was one of the biggest PITA projects I've ever gone through. 9235 used to be all I used for steam showers--I'll never go back after using Kerdi.


 
You shouldn't post pictures of work like that, it's going to hurt your reputation. :whistling

Um, but seriously, that's like a work of art. Very nice, very, very impressive! :thumbsup:


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> You shouldn't post pictures of work like that, it's going to hurt your reputation. :whistling
> 
> Um, but seriously, that's like a work of art. Very nice, very, very impressive! :thumbsup:


Thanks Mike.

It turned out very nice... but it hurts to think back on how it went together. I pushed the envelope and got burned twice on that job... and both were directly related to the waterproofing. NEVER AGAIN WILL I DEAL WITH THAT BLACK SH**...

It's one of those projects that are always in the back of my head---"God I hope I don't get a call about THAT one again..."


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

pgc555 said:


> Many people steer me to the Schluter website. I can build a 48x34 shower pan complete for about $200.00
> I don't have to order the materials and can pick them up at any "big box" store. Schluter makes great products, but they cost alot more. Next , someone will tell me "you get what you pay for." If you can do the same job for less money that makes sense to me


 
We do a sh*t load of poured pans. If you can honestly do a 12sq ft shower pan for $200 bucks (I'm assuming this is material and labor not materials) and it's acceptable by the TCNA I'll be the first to hand you some money.

How do we stay posted to this revelation you are about to unleash on the world of tile?


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Mike anybody can build a conventional pan that size for $200 if they don't mind working for $4 an hour.


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm impressed with the job that Christopher posted. That is GREAT work! We agree that 9235 is difficult to work with. I use Aqua Defense and Hydro ban more. I still use a fabric with it to "tape" ALL the corners. For a test, I did my process and then flood tested
a shower pan and left the water in it , unprotected with tile/grout, for SIX WEEKS. Not a drop. If my process can keep a pan waterproof for 6 weeks , it can hold up to a 15 min. shower. To answer the $200 question. NO that's not M-n-L. Materials only
using $90 cost for liquid waterproofing. In my market I get an additional $400 labor for about 2 hours work. Maybe some guys can't work that cheap but I'm ok with it. The tile install is above and beyond this cost. I am promoting the construction of a shower pan,
tile ready, using cement board and my technique. AGAIN I AM VERY GRATEFUL FOR ANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS. Unless I get the other side, I may of overlooked it and you guys are my piers and experts on this subject. I will be able to "Unleash this Revelation"
by the middle of Sept. But I am encouraged that there has been this much interest and debate on it. It shows me that maybe mud set bases may be going out and the newer products that are different may be the new standard .


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Hello Boys. He's back. For your information my idea was well received at the
Total Solutions Conference in Sept. I DID AND ADMIT, have some blind spots in the technique that I was called on.I am adjusting my idea to include the recommendations. I see that this forum is NOT the place to open up a new idea. You are right that I was trying to get a feel for the possible acceptance of something new but again I see most of the guys that post here are set on
a certain product and that's fine. This forum seems to do less for helping someone and more about just a few guys using it like a myspace page to tell the world what they know.I will read the negative comments that a few of you will inevitably post , let you laugh about it and confirm what I said that this forum has seemed to become.

I will do fine,


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

pgc555 said:


> Hello Boys. He's back. For your information my idea was well received at the
> Total Solutions Conference in Sept. I DID AND ADMIT, have some blind spots in the technique that I was called on.I am adjusting my idea to include the recommendations. I see that this forum is NOT the place to open up a new idea. You are right that I was trying to get a feel for the possible acceptance of something new but again I see most of the guys that post here are set on
> a certain product and that's fine. This forum seems to do less for helping someone and more about just a few guys using it like a myspace page to tell the world what they know.I will read the negative comments that a few of you will inevitably post , let you laugh about it and confirm what I said that this forum has seemed to become.
> 
> I will do fine,


I think you've mistaken the back and forth banter, most of it regarding threads you had no part of, as some inside joke at your expense. I can only speak for myself in saying my comments weren't directed at or against you in any way.

Yes, there are some very opinionated craftsmen around here, as there are on any jobsite. If you'll recall our previous discussion when you first started this thread, my comments were directed at the efficacy of your idea--and not a personal attack on you. 

Any entrepreneur, inventor, visionary---must be prepared to have their ideas scrutinized when they don't conform to the status quo. If your idea has merit, you don't do it justice by shrinking away from that scrutiny.

At the end of the day, your ideas will either stand on their own, or they won't. But gathering up your toys and going home doesn't benefit you, or those who might be lurking in this thread--curious to see if your method may be a better mousetrap.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

pgc555 said:


> Hello Boys. He's back. For your information my idea was well received at the
> Total Solutions Conference in Sept. I DID AND ADMIT, have some blind spots in the technique that I was called on.I am adjusting my idea to include the recommendations. I see that this forum is NOT the place to open up a new idea. You are right that I was trying to get a feel for the possible acceptance of something new but again I see most of the guys that post here are set on
> a certain product and that's fine. This forum seems to do less for helping someone and more about just a few guys using it like a myspace page to tell the world what they know.I will read the negative comments that a few of you will inevitably post , let you laugh about it and confirm what I said that this forum has seemed to become.
> 
> I will do fine,


 
So, because we have offended you with our honesty we don't get the chance to see your invention?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

angus242 said:


> that "Dura-Wetshield" (no reference to your product, Phil)


Don't take any of the things I have said personally. They were NOT directed at you. I stand by my original comment quoted above. I'm just joking with the guys but it's not supposed to be at your expense.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

pgc555 said:


> I see that this forum is NOT the place to open up a new idea. You are right that I was trying to get a feel for the possible acceptance of something new but again I see most of the guys that post here are set on
> a certain product and that's fine. This forum seems to do less for helping someone and more about just a few guys using it like a myspace page to tell the world what they know.I will read the negative comments that a few of you will inevitably post , let you laugh about it and confirm what I said that this forum has seemed to become.
> 
> I will do fine,


You should be jumping for joy that you have found a place that challenges your product for free. What is better to field a product being blind to the real challenges to it, dumping money into it only to find out later what the pitfalls are? Or even worse to end up being sued or warrantied out of business?

Seen Steve Martin in the movie the Jerk? You don't want to end up like him, writing a million checks for $1.99 do you? :laughing:

Just kidding. But seriously if I was fielding a new product I would want it to be able to stand up to the harshest critics instead of a bunch of yes men oohing and ahhing at it with no idea if there really is a problem or not.


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## JK Floors (Mar 15, 2009)

pgc555 said:


> You are right that I was trying to get a feel for the possible acceptance of something new but again I see most of the guys that post here are set on a certain product and that's fine.


It is true that many are set on a certain product. However, you have failed to give a viable alternative. You originally suggested that you have something new and created a lot of noise over it. Nice marketing. But you still have not shown us anything. You promised to explain after your September showing. Many of the posts in this thread questioned what you are doing. You provided vague replies.

*Where is the explanation?*
*How does it work? *


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## BigDa (Dec 29, 2007)

This guy obviously got shot down about as bad at the conference. Why would he do all this to market technique or method. He repeated over and over, that you would be using traditional materials. I enjoyed reading this thread.....not really sure why though. I was really let down that there was no secrets revealed after the conference. If its all technique and method, we knew you were not going to reveal it. 

Oh yeah...I like how you are busting on what this forum has become. In your first posting you said you were new to this forum. You said that has become like myspace, in that its just a bunch of guys telling what they know. I have not posted much, but have read 100's of posts. It is just a bunch of guys telling what they know, which is why I keep reading. Its seems your only only experience with this forum is your thread. which is definitely not someone telling ANYTHING they know. You promised a revelation that I only expect to see in the form of an E-book for $11.95 in a spam email in the future.

MY 2 cents


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Ready? The revelation.... A piece of 1/2" cement board is thin-set and nailed to the wood sub floor to help to minimize deflection. The way I pitch the cement board to the drain is by using 4"wide x 5/16"thick cement board edge strips on the perimeter of the pan dimension making a frame. They are secured with medium bed thin-set. Another piece of 1/4" or 5/16" cement board is then cut the full floor size of the shower pan are (example 48" x 32") A full spread of medium bed thin set is troweled over the edge strips and the floor area and this top cement board is set into it. By stepping from the drain to the walls and all around the base you will "Form" a bowl with a pitch to the drain of 1/4" per foot as required by plumbing code.Try it yourself and you will see it works. The cement board is water proofed with a liquid topical waterproofer at the corners, curb, and the whole top of the top cement board (the part to be tiled) Fiber tape is used in the corners and "Taped" also with water proofer. The blind spot I metioned was how I tied it into the drain assembly. That has been worked out. I use smaller strips of fiber and they too get waterproofing on them. 2 coats as recommended by the manufacturer.There is no vinyl liner or two part sheet membrane used.Nothing to trap water between. The "liner if you will is just under the tile and that layer is what is pitched to the drain.There is only one cement board manufacturer's product that will work with this and they have supported me from the beginning ( about 6 months) also I recommend only one waterproofing product to be used. They too have supported me. I was not shot down at the conference, on the contrary, the comments I heard more than once was " new and inventive". I have a large tile supplier in the Chicagoland area allowing me to run workshops to get the idea out. So, Bring on the questions.

I realized you guys were entitled at least this much information


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

:whistling

http://www.schluter.com/8_4_kerdi_shower_kit.aspx


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

AGAIN , I'll say it. I AM NOT GOING TO ATTACK KERDI. THE GUYS ON THIS FORUM THAT BLEED ORANGE WILL PROBABLY NOT BE INTERESTED.there may be others that haven't used Kerdi because of the price or other reasons. They MAY be interested in this idea.Way way way back in the thread Chris
said ( loose quote ) "maybe you did in fact come up with a way to construct a water proof shower". I did. It works. And yes Chris NO-PRE-SLOPE!


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Jarvis post # 23 remember this

"I wanted to add that I am giving you the :thumbup: for being inventive and trying new things."


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Nobody has a question?


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

Alright, I'll bite... Regarding this:



> By stepping from the drain to the walls and all around the base you will "Form" a bowl with a pitch to the drain of 1/4" per foot as required by plumbing code.


Stepping, how? Do you mean increasing the thickness of medium-bed mortar as you move away from the drain? How would the board be held down to form the bowl then? Fasteners?

Or do you mean literally stepping on the board to force an even permanent bow into it? How would it remain cupped? 

*How do you know there's full support under the entire board just by troweling out thinset under there? (oops, meant medium bed)
*

Do you mind if I copy and paste your method and send it to an industry insider I know to get his opinion on it?


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Yes send it to your rep. I will tell you that the medium bed is LATICRETE 255
This material has an almost instant grab. And yes your weight alone will form
this cement board. PermaBase


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

pgc555 said:


> Ready? The revelation.... A piece of 1/2" cement board is thin-set and nailed to the wood sub floor to help to minimize deflection. The way I pitch the cement board to the drain is by using 4"wide x 5/16"thick cement board edge strips on the perimeter of the pan dimension making a frame. They are secured with medium bed thin-set. Another piece of 1/4" or 5/16" cement board is then cut the full floor size of the shower pan are (example 48" x 32") A full spread of medium bed thin set is troweled over the edge strips and the floor area and this top cement board is set into it. By stepping from the drain to the walls and all around the base you will "Form" a bowl with a pitch to the drain of 1/4" per foot as required by plumbing code.Try it yourself and you will see it works. The cement board is water proofed with a liquid topical waterproofer at the corners, curb, and the whole top of the top cement board (the part to be tiled) Fiber tape is used in the corners and "Taped" also with water proofer. The blind spot I metioned was how I tied it into the drain assembly. That has been worked out. I use smaller strips of fiber and they too get waterproofing on them. 2 coats as recommended by the manufacturer.There is no vinyl liner or two part sheet membrane used.Nothing to trap water between. The "liner if you will is just under the tile and that layer is what is pitched to the drain.There is only one cement board manufacturer's product that will work with this and they have supported me from the beginning ( about 6 months) also I recommend only one waterproofing product to be used. They too have supported me. I was not shot down at the conference, on the contrary, the comments I heard more than once was " new and inventive". I have a large tile supplier in the Chicagoland area allowing me to run workshops to get the idea out. So, Bring on the questions.
> 
> I realized you guys were entitled at least this much information


I suspected this was your method, as this is typically how I do my pre-slopes--althought I use rips of stud lumber to frame the perimeter, and rip wedges from the perimeter to the drain to create a consistent slope. I've also used partially set screws to support the sloped backer until the mortar dries. 

Your comment on installing the first layer of cement board to minimize deflection is not exactly accurate. There isn't any tile backer material that adds to the structural stability of a floor system.

Are you using a standard clamping drain? Are you tiling directly over the weep holes?


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

The first layer of 1/2" acts just like underlayment would on a tiled floor. The relatively small floor area inside the shower is stiffened by installing cement board with thin set under it and nailed down. Enough for the average weight of a person standing inside it. Standard clamping ring. weep holes free. Fiber tape covered with water proofer clamps into the clamping ring and is secured on the top layer of board. This keeps a continuous membrane to the drain under the tile.I have realy only cut out the step in mud bases of the water going through the tile grout AND bed set to the pitch to the drain. It's on the top.Although since I tile this top layer of cement board I can't see water getting under the tile and fighting the thin set used to install the tile and then making it to the drain. Not ANY different then, Dare I SAY IT, a pre-slope method done wrong. One of my first test models I plugged the drain and filled it with water for 6 weeks. No tile Not a drop


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

pgc555 said:


> ....Although since I tile this top layer of cement board I can't see water getting under the tile and fighting the thin set used to install the tile and then making it to the drain...


It's a surface level water proofing, I understand that. But it's inaccurate to say water won't beat the grout and thinset...those materials aren't waterproof.


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Chris , this method will work AS A PRE-SLOPE. Don't use any liquid water proofer. Just use cement board as a perimeter and another piece set in medium bed with the drain hole cut out.Put your liner in and do you deck mud the same day. That's what I was fishing for on the other thread when I posted "Who sets the liner in your area". I was going to show that my method could be done easily by the plumbers BEFORE they do the liner. There I said it again Pre-Slope


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

pgc555 said:


> Chris , this method will work AS A PRE-SLOPE. Don't use any liquid water proofer. Just use cement board as a perimeter and another piece set in medium bed with the drain hole cut out.Put your liner in and do you deck mud the same day. That's what I was fishing for on the other thread when I posted "Who sets the liner in your area". I was going to show that my method could be done easily by the plumbers BEFORE they do the liner. There I said it again Pre-Slope


As I said, this is how I do my pre-slopes....although I do a slope of 1/4" per foot... it sounds like you're getting less than that.


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

My point was that the water they MAY go into the grout and under the tile
would not have a clear path. In a mud base you know the mud does not adhere to the liner.Water will go under the solid base and get to the weep holes ( maybe) I'm saying that since I am using thinset to install the tile layer
the water would be slowed and not travel freely to the weep holes , even though I leave them free. It is my opinion that the small amount of water that actually permeates the tile and grout will evaporate out before building up enough to cause mold or smell. The other thread I posted about Who installs... Many guys said that they have NEVER tore out a shower and saw a pre-slope. In those showers, again they may not of been leaking, there could no way be the same amount of water trapped in my design as those.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

pgc555 said:


> My point was that the water they MAY go into the grout and under the tile
> would not have a clear path. In a mud base you know the mud does not adhere to the liner.Water will go under the solid base and get to the weep holes ( maybe) I'm saying that since I am using thinset to install the tile layer
> the water would be slowed and not travel freely to the weep holes , even though I leave them free. It is my opinion that the small amount of water that actually permeates the tile and grout will evaporate out before building up enough to cause mold or smell. The other thread I posted about Who installs... Many guys said that they have NEVER tore out a shower and saw a pre-slope. In those showers, again they may not of been leaking, there could no way be the same amount of water trapped in my design as those.


How is the amount of water that gets through the grout any different with your method than it is with any other?


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Chris , I'm sorry my responses are slower then your questions. The perimeter
pieces are 5/16" add the medium bed thinset and you will see that you easily get a 1/4" per foot. Remember this is on a center drain location. There is still a way I pitch if I let's say replace a tub with an end drain location. I can pitch the whole shower that 1/4"/ft. Too much detail to explain that here and now.let's stick with the original answers


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

OMG, WTF, LOL, hold it, I am confused.


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

It's not. Anyone here that uses let's say orange.Tiles over it with thinset, right? Grouts it,right? Water gets through the grout and goes where?
Not out because the orange stops it from going out but does it steer it to the drain any different than my method?


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

There's no difference in moisture penetration between Kerdi, your method, or any other surface applied membrane... Water is blocked directly below the tiles bonding layer.... I'm not sure how you leave the weep holes clear, or if it's even necessary. No matter...


I'm not a big fan of the slope method you described. As Chris said, the initial layer of backerboard should not be relied on to add subfloor strength. If you need to beef up the subfloor because it's inadequate, add 1/2" plywood, and fasten 1/4" backer to it if you still need a cement board in place for the thinset to bond to. 

I dont doubt your method provides a proper slope to the drain, but it just seems a little to hodge-podge to me... A seasoned tile guy can handle mudding a shower floor, and to me it seems a DIY'er could really screw up your method. How do you truly know there's full, even support under every sq.inch of floor? I do a lot of mosaic floors, and the slightest deflection would crack some grout very easily.


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Unless someone has anymore questions? I'm done for today


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

In my effort to get the "Revelation" out I neglected to say I use two layer of 1/2" cement board before the top layer of pitched board. 1 full inch bonded together with thinset is solid enough.You can't tell me that you are afraid of
mosaic 1x1's coming loose set on over 1-1/4" combination of cement board and medium bed thinset.Don't over think this , it works.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

got a cutaway sketch?


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm done tonight. I will check in tomorrow. Send a private message for specific questions you want me to address.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

pgc555 said:


> Ready? The revelation.... A piece of 1/2" cement board is thin-set and nailed to the wood sub floor to help to minimize deflection. The way I pitch the cement board to the drain is by using 4"wide x 5/16"thick cement board edge strips on the perimeter of the pan dimension making a frame. They are secured with medium bed thin-set. Another piece of 1/4" or 5/16" cement board is then cut the full floor size of the shower pan are (example 48" x 32") A full spread of medium bed thin set is troweled over the edge strips and the floor area and this top cement board is set into it. By stepping from the drain to the walls and all around the base you will "Form" a bowl with a pitch to the drain of 1/4" per foot as required by plumbing code.Try it yourself and you will see it works. The cement board is water proofed with a liquid topical waterproofer at the corners, curb, and the whole top of the top cement board (the part to be tiled) Fiber tape is used in the corners and "Taped" also with water proofer. The blind spot I metioned was how I tied it into the drain assembly. That has been worked out. I use smaller strips of fiber and they too get waterproofing on them. 2 coats as recommended by the manufacturer.There is no vinyl liner or two part sheet membrane used.Nothing to trap water between. The "liner if you will is just under the tile and that layer is what is pitched to the drain.There is only one cement board manufacturer's product that will work with this and they have supported me from the beginning ( about 6 months) also I recommend only one waterproofing product to be used. They too have supported me. I was not shot down at the conference, on the contrary, the comments I heard more than once was " new and inventive". I have a large tile supplier in the Chicagoland area allowing me to run workshops to get the idea out. So, Bring on the questions.
> 
> I realized you guys were entitled at least this much information


 
:thumbdown No way that is going to add any benefit accept to some 36x36 or similar sized shower. If we are doing a tiled base it's going to be large. 

Your techinque sounds like it would work in a smaller shower, but if the shower is smaller, you've already lost the benefit of this system since there is no cost savings anyways. 

I don't think this is going to revolutionize much of anything over the 2nd choice of buying that premixed, premade stuff with the fiber in it already created just for shower pans. 

Mix, mix, plunk, screed, screed... all done and now worries.

Just my opinion, but I can predict pretty confidently if I passed this idea along to the awesome and highly experienced tile setters we use they are going to look at me like I am some sort of douche bag.

When the TCNA sticks this in it's latest hand book, let us know.


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

The TCNA handbook is the industry standard for how to install showers.Tried and true methods.They are not the tile police.They publish the "Recommended" procedures.By the amount of different ways that guys have said that they install showers on this forum, not everyone that installs showers follow the book. That is not to say that they are doing anything wrong,just different.I have the latest copy on my desk, pages 61-64 on shower receptors. I don't see a tried and true ,published,method that uses any form of fiberglass or pre-pitched foam receptor within those pages.They all say "Sloped reinforced mortar bed 1"-1-3/4".

Many of the guys on this forum have decades of experience. I myself have been installing professionally for 39 years.I have found myself unwilling to try something new at times.Human nature maybe.This technique will work as a shower pan,it's not for everyone and I NEVER expected it to be. A tradesman with maybe 10-15 years in the field may be more open to a new installation process.New products come out everyday.And it's been stated here by others,everything we use today was a "New" thing at some point in time. If you don't want to try this technique,don't.I was just being true to my word that I would at least give details that I promised back in Sept.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

pgc555 said:


> The TCNA handbook is the industry standard for how to install showers.Tried and true methods.They are not the tile police.They publish the "Recommended" procedures.By the amount of different ways that guys have said that they install showers on this forum, not everyone that installs showers follow the book. That is not to say that they are doing anything wrong,just different.I have the latest copy on my desk, pages 61-64 on shower receptors. I don't see a tried and true ,published,method that uses any form of fiberglass or pre-pitched foam receptor within those pages.They all say "Sloped reinforced mortar bed 1"-1-3/4".
> 
> Many of the guys on this forum have decades of experience. I myself have been installing professionally for 39 years.I have found myself unwilling to try something new at times.Human nature maybe.This technique will work as a shower pan,it's not for everyone and I NEVER expected it to be. A tradesman with maybe 10-15 years in the field may be more open to a new installation process.New products come out everyday.And it's been stated here by others,everything we use today was a "New" thing at some point in time. If you don't want to try this technique,don't.I was just being true to my word that I would at least give details that I promised back in Sept.


No way that is going to add any benefit accept to some 36x36 or similar sized shower. If we are doing a tiled base it's going to be large. 

Your techinque sounds like it would work in a smaller shower, but if the shower is smaller, you've already lost the benefit of this system since there is no cost savings anyways. 

I don't think this is going to revolutionize much of anything over the 2nd choice of buying that premixed, premade stuff with the fiber in it already created just for shower pans. 

Mix, mix, plunk, screed, screed... all done and now worries.

Just my opinion, but I can predict pretty confidently if I passed this idea along to the awesome and highly experienced tile setters we use they are going to look at me like I am some sort of douche bag.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

*My brain hurts*

Your technique implies that some one has the skill set and tools to cut your CBU, mix mud, get the right amount underneath and then while walking around squish it to the edges. A rough outline of your technique.

First off what of the home owner is 350 lbs. Does this squish out to much mortar? 

What about making a negative image of a shower pan and have people fill the shower area with wet mud, put the form on top and then getting the whole family to jump up and down on it? I'm sure that would work? People could share the form.

The oldschool techniques you speak of are slowly going. We do our preslope shower floors with dry pack 5-1 and can slope a shower pan in about 1 - 2 hours. I'm thinking this is oldschool. But today we waterproof the top side of the preslope not the bottom.

I get the feeling that you started this out of a desire to help and pass on the old school way. You could help so many by uploading video and pictures of mixing 5-1, how best to grade it, how to hold the tools, etc.

I see no way of earning a income from describing a system that uses someones CBU and someones waterproofer.

Every shower is unique. A 1/4" CBU isn't going to bend on a tub re and re into a shower or a neo angle shower.

The best technique today is to have a preslope and then waterproof it. If you can't mix mud the you can lay styrofoam (Kerdi shower kit).

Old School by my recount was a liner on a flat base with the mud job on top. I have removed tons of those moldy old showers. New technique keeps the water from sitting at the bottom 2" thick forever.

If you have a desire to teach and educate the next generation of setters - show us. Post the videos on You Tube.

I think you missing the learning curve here because you are a tile setter.

Make a video of your install and show it to some genuie pigs alongside Kerdi's install, or Mapei's install, or Customs install.


Good Luck - I hope you get your technique published but hope more you share the wetsetting techniques with others as so many have no glue on how to do this. With every botched tile job more and more people shy away from tile jobs because they are moldy or the floor leaks. An army of DIYers trained by Big Box staff making $8.00 hour. Scary.


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Alright, I think I rode this horse long enough. Over 2300 hits on this subject and over 100 posts was way more than expected.I thank everyone that chimed in.I'm done. Let's move on.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

That's funny. I love it when somebody wants to move on but has to announce he is moving on instead of just doing it. :no:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Cool, glad you got enough plublicity aout of this. That's awesome. Oh, I am moving on as well.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Well, I will say this, you are inventive! 

One Question:
How exactly do you waterproof to the drain? 

My Comments:

Yes, I am one of those Orange guys. I use CBU on the walls behind the Kerdi and do a drypack base on all my jobs. Takes about 1 1/2 - 2 hours to do a drypack base. Cost- 4 bags @ $5.00= $20.00 Plus Kerdi
Now, I do pay $80.00 for a kerdi drain - but man - talk about installer friendly- you can set the height and position as you tile - and the grate is square.


Your method - 1, oh, make it 2 sheets of 1/2" cbu (unless the shower is biggert than it could be 3 or 4, plus some medium bed thinset, plus some 5/16" stuff, etc. Up here thats $35-$70 for the cbu, plus the med bed mortar, etc. Plus your liquid membrane and a drain (whatever it is you are using) - does it have a square grate that is height adjustable?


Bottom line, I don't think your method is any more user friendly and seems to be more of PITA than any percieved benefits. 

I give you a :clap: for being inventive and a :thumbdown for your product. And, I am not trying to be nasty, just giving you my review.


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## tileredo (Oct 24, 2009)

I read through this LONG thread and decided I would try the suggestion the OP posted in #98.He claims that this new "Revelation" would work as a "pre-slope". So. as best as I could understand him,I cut up some cement board and put them under my liner in a small shower (36x36) that I was doing on a slab.
I figured if it didn't work , at least I was on a slab in a basement and it couldn't hurt anything to bad.I did my deck mud like normal the same day. The next day I poured a little water around my pan like I usually do to see that it was absorbed into the mud and checked the weep holes. It actually worked! I don't know if I will start doing all my showers like this but I admit the guy was right about the use as a preslope.I'm not sure if I'm ready to go through with the whole waterproofing thing right now but I thought I would let him know at least I tried it to prove him wrong and I found out I was .


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank-you for at least trying it!


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

tileredo said:


> I read through this LONG thread and decided I would try the suggestion the OP posted in #98.He claims that this new "Revelation" would work as a "pre-slope". So. as best as I could understand him,I cut up some cement board and put them under my liner in a small shower (36x36) that I was doing on a slab.
> I figured if it didn't work , at least I was on a slab in a basement and it couldn't hurt anything to bad.I did my deck mud like normal the same day. The next day I poured a little water around my pan like I usually do to see that it was absorbed into the mud and checked the weep holes. It actually worked! I don't know if I will start doing all my showers like this but I admit the guy was right about the use as a preslope.I'm not sure if I'm ready to go through with the whole waterproofing thing right now but I thought I would let him know at least I tried it to prove him wrong and I found out I was .


Did you make another username? :shifty:



pgc555 said:


> Thank-you for at least trying it!


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Michaeljp86 said:


> Did you make another username? :shifty:


:whistling


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Well, now that we know what the big secret was, I'm even more stumped at the original post to this whole thing



pgc555 said:


> I have figured out a way to use cement board as the shower pan. I will be attending the "Total Solutions" conference in San Antonio in Sept. given by the NCTA and after that I will be using this sight to PURCHASE advertising space and with that display the website link so anyone can check it out.


What exactly are you selling? What's marketable about this whole fiasco anyways?


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