# Winter Work



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Some pics from whats going on this site. The house is a farm house replica. Its perfect.










The other side of the house



















We had 5500 Old Virgina bricks trucked up here in early December. All the cubes are a frozen mess of coarse right....










We build pyramids as we go and blast them with the heater. They will dry out in an hour. This one is about half the size of what it was. 










This wall will actually be inside of a closet. 



















Couple fireplaces back to back off set.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Nice to see you staying busy :thumbup:

What are those flues for?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

The other chimney has a bread oven.


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

Nice work. Keep us posted on progress.


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

Man! That's a lot of snow....looks like it would be hard just trying to get to work. If we have that much snow, we would be paralyzed :laughing:


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

Do you build your fireboxes after you build your chimneys?


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

Got one staring Tuesday myself 300sq' stone veneer and 550sq' brick. Will spend the first day clearing snow. Will post pics when we start. 
Looking forward to seeing the progress pics on this one.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I like the straps on ceiling joist . That should be code here! But It ain't !


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

brickhook said:


> Do you build your fireboxes after you build your chimneys?


I do a lot ya. Usually if we do a fireplace at the end there is a bunch of broken stuff we use for fill around the firebox. Makes it slightly cheaper. We save the fireplace for a rain day. And we dont drop any mud down the flue onto the top of it when its done last.

With 2 brickies you will loose time having both of them on the fireplace instead of sticking one up top to cap out while the other one gets the inside done. One guy typically gets the fireplace/box done and cleaned up by 2:00- maybe 3. With 2 guys is takes us till 1 ish maybe 2. Waste of a guy done like that.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

blacktop said:


> I like the straps on ceiling joist . That should be code here! But It ain't !


How do you run wires and plumbing?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

brickhook said:


> Man! That's a lot of snow....looks like it would be hard just trying to get to work. If we have that much snow, we would be paralyzed :laughing:


After the storm where we got 36" of light powder snow this real estate agent calls me and says she has a vacant house that needs the driveway plowed. 

I head over there and pull up to this. 










Its been sitting a long while judging from the leaves. 










There is a circular drive by the house that had ice under the snow. I was so careful the whole driveway then at the end found the ice and was stuck on level ground. Luckily I was able to simply throw some pine needles and sticks under the tires and was on my way.


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

JBM said:


> I do a lot ya. Usually if we do a fireplace at the end there is a bunch of broken stuff we use for fill around the firebox. Makes it slightly cheaper. We save the fireplace for a rain day. And we dont drop any mud down the flue onto the top of it when its done last.
> 
> 
> 
> With 2 brickies you will loose time having both of them on the fireplace instead of sticking one up top to cap out while the other one gets the inside done. One guy typically gets the fireplace/box done and cleaned up by 2:00- maybe 3. With 2 guys is takes us till 1 ish maybe 2. Waste of a guy done like that.



I wish all jobs worked on a schedule that makes more sense,hate doing a firebox on a nice sunny day,


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

S.U.M said:


> I wish all jobs worked on a schedule that makes more sense,hate doing a firebox on a nice sunny day,


I remember having 5 fireplaces to do in a subdivision back when. I went around and thrashed all the chimneys up and did fireplaces on weird days.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Was looking at the timbers,are they recycled from an old barn ?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Yes the ones in the what looks like family room are from a barn, the actual barn timbers are new lol.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

God I love the barn beam look. 
I mentioned in another post that I did a lot of masonry for a famous carpenter builder Gunther Builders from Trumbull,CT. He did all his homes in that barn / colonial theme....3'' exposure clapboard with hand made nails,wood gutters,strap hinges,bead board,structo lite plaster between barn beams;ship dormers, on and on. On his brick he'd only accept a flat trowel tip joint sometimes scored with it immediately.

A Bridgeport CT masonry yard for many years had a brick panel display showing old v's done with a groove jointer. 
I did some with them but imo the trowel line rules in the colonial setting. I have a lot of northern yellow pine done with a adze in my home. Harder wood after it dries is difficult to find...lol

Here's a pic of a few line groove jointers . The shiny one is MarshalTown , the others I like better are Rose.. I think. IMO It'd be ashamed to see those hand molded bricks with a concave joint. The chimney is on one of his more formal homes. He did a whole devopement Sturbrdge Village style in Trumbull CT.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I built a panel with a concave joint and a groove joint. They want a concave joint, but it will only be on that one panel and the fireplaces. The rest of it will be unjointed, he even wants it unlevel and crooked-ish.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

JBM said:


> I built a panel with a concave joint and a groove joint. They want a concave joint, but it will only be on that one panel and the fireplaces. The rest of it will be unjointed, he even wants it unlevel and crooked-ish.


 crooked with concave-s yuck ''city slickers'' ...no punn intened lol


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fancis Casini said:


> Here's a pic of a few line groove jointers . The shiny one is MarshalTown , the others I like better are Rose.. .




I had the exact same experience with a grapevine jointer I purchased in the south,a place where that type of joint is fairly prevalent.


It looked real nice with a wooded handle and all.The metal looked like a rough cast iron casting. It grabbed the mortar and just flat out made a mess of things. An old time local hardware store had a few forged ones that worked perfectly,do not know the brands though.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Fancis Casini said:


> crooked with concave-s yuck ''city slickers'' ...no punn intened lol


No, unjointed. Like it was uncovered in a remodel.


Except the fireplaces.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Scaffold company put it up.. not cheap. They would custom build a clear span one for just over $100K


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

CJKarl said:


> Scaffold company put it up.. not cheap. They would custom build a clear span one for just over $100K


Set up scaffolding for 100k...im doing it wrong lol.


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

Looking good Karl, get a few more snaps of the scaffold when you are there, stone as well, love seeing how others do things, stealing their ideas and getting the credit as my own. Insert evil laughter.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

re;JB, those 52DD's? and portland in the firebox. Inspectors would chop our dingys off for that. I do however like the look and am quite familiar with the consequences.

I make 12'' when I do the red brick but they dont bother me here in ct.All you would have to do is back up with firebrick if they complain.

Actually it's the small rumfords that really get hot and blister. Here's two picks done with the 52dd brick. One is a large cookin type that the owner wanted copied from her friend that I did too. They burned alot and would place a sheet metal curtain in front of it when they went to sleep.It has no damage ie the logs hardly come in contact with the sides and air cools where there's no fire.
The other is my son's 36'' Orton variation which really heats and is showing some firebox stress in 3 years. It uses a 42'' cut flange vestal ie 20'' deep box / 6'' rear wall lean on 50''.

J looks good.....gotta get you to do a orton variation yet!


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Thats what I do, I wrap the backside of the brick and even bond to it. I leave room for expansion after that. Boxes will last pretty much a lifetime even with reg. mortar if the box cant move.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I sho would hate to be a brick smith around here next week!! 

Nasty!!!


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

I'd almost welcome mud season. This winter has been holding on tooooo long.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

CJKarl said:


> This winter has been holding on tooooo long.





:thumbsup:


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

CJKarl said:


> I'd almost welcome mud season. This winter has been holding on tooooo long.



Agreed.


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

CJKarl said:


> I'd almost welcome mud season. This winter has been holding on tooooo long.


Yes Sir! Its time to move on. :thumbsup:


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

What's the difference between Kaufmann Masonry LLC and a North Korean labor camp?


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Kaufmann Masonry LLC will buy you a coffee once and a while.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

The only guys in the area laying a terrace this week. We shoveled, covered and heated it for 3 days. Not a chip of ice in the ground.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

CJKarl said:


> What's the difference between Kaufmann Masonry LLC and a North Korean labor camp?


Get to use a dolly!


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

CJKarl said:


> What's the difference between Kaufmann Masonry LLC and a North Korean labor camp?




The language spoken on the job site.:laughing:


Just kidding !


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

CJKarl said:


> What's the difference between Kaufmann Masonry LLC and a North Korean labor camp?



Your allowed to go on the Internet to post pictures.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

My layout for the next fireplace. 










Anyone wanna help fill this


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

J is the box at the left a fireplace.....

I have great news about my throat tests. 

I've been mulling over tying one more imrovement to make my throat more epa friendly. 

Well two nights ago I did the test starting at 4pm to 10 am in still rain and 30 degree weather which turned foggy.
The wood is near green an very damp because it's all I have left so I started a coal base with 2 by 4's etc. Long story short is I leap frogged the 1:30 to a insane 1:51 throat ratio!!! No smoke

This is now 2.5 times smaller than a 1:20 and 3.5 times less than a same sized Orton and off the charts compared to a 48'' BIA box!

I emailed Jim Buckley and he was very receptive but doesnt understand what I've done mainly because I never told him.

I now need to go thru the tests in my 36'' office orton and the one in the basement to see if the ratio decreases but I have much excess! 

Boy if had gone ahead with the patent this would of been someone else's......ThankYou Robert Hellman 

ps he doesnt know yet!


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

The plastic fantastic love shack is finally coming down.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

Karl and JB, you guys do keep going, I give you credit. 

Like Fred and Sean I've done my share of free heating jobs...those commercial jobs love to start the masonry late fall yet say they "aint paying winter prices".

I recall using frost wedges to do walls and or start digging a foundation!

What do you guys use for antifreeze......that looks like antihydro in your pic Carl.....That stuff is the best.....Ive done large jobs where we used 55 gal drums worth....not a salt mark and like new 30 years later. That conc suppliment stuff is crap....Too bad the hydro is so expensive.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Nice.

You guys really don't like joints huh?


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## Nick520 (May 2, 2013)

What exactly is this project, residential backyard?


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Yup. Just a pool in a backyard.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Nice house, but it's no mansion.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

These joints are extreme even by my standards. I now must match them with the remainder of the stonework.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

That is what oldtimers would call brick masons stone.

Pardon but I never did like the strip look less an abundance of blocks, and I question it's durability being so anemicly tight.

Is it a 18'' thick stone wall or a veneer?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Could put those together with the adhesive for dry walls lol.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

JBM said:


> Could put those together with the adhesive for dry walls lol.


the word ''adhesive'' was on my edit


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fancis Casini said:


> I question it's durability being so anemicly tight.



Good obsevation. There is an optimum joint size for masonry. Too thick and the bond suffers,too thin and the same results.


Those definitely fall into the latter category . Also,there is perspective that claims if the beds are relieved and the face is not to produce the look of a real tight joint,stresses are established to cause the stone to spall. In other words,the entire bed needs to be a tight,even plane.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fancis Casini said:


> I question it's durability being so anemicly tight.



Good observation. There is an optimum joint size for masonry. Too thick and the bond suffers,too thin and the same results.


Those definitely fall into the latter category . Also,there is perspective that claims if the beds are relieved and the face is not to produce the look of a real tight joint,stresses are established to cause the stone to spall. In other words,the entire bed needs to be a tight,even plane.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Well this isn't structural work (it is because its a retaining wall but I'm sure there's a wall behind it, I thought I saw a 4" corner) Purely (mostly) cosmetic and if that's what the customer wants and has a pocket full of money who is anyone to argue? There is no denying that walls like that take a high degree of skill, very well executed in my opinion even if it isn't entirely to my taste


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> Well this isn't structural work (it is because its a retaining wall but I'm sure there's a wall behind it, I thought I saw a 4" corner) Purely (mostly) cosmetic and if that's what the customer wants and has a pocket full of money who is anyone to argue? There is no denying that walls like that take a high degree of skill, very well executed in my opinion even if it isn't entirely to my taste


Why the high skill? The stones run like books....the job is merely setting and cleaning up points,.most likely done with grinders due to the thinness ie fragility...... No one is argueing. Rather... it's more like not falling all over the job merely because it's rubber stamped "top quality" 
If that was a rubble granite mix with large sq and rectangles then I'd say it's high skill as I'd feel my wrist and elbow! 
I guess it's where and when one learned the trade, never the less we live in a diamond cutters masonry world today! 

There are walls a galore failing from wrongly laid drylook, it's gone viral.
This one has stratified grains making for the strips so the beds will be flatish however many drylook jobs have beds way sharper than 60% which used to be gospel,now long abandoned by most and the key reason for their failure.

If this particular wall is a veneer in front of concrete and not slushed tight ''like most I see'' it's days are short.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

4"-6"veneer over concrete. It will last. I can show you 40 year old veneer exactly like this. Still looks new.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

CJKarl said:


> 4"-6"veneer over concrete. It will last. I can show you 40 year old veneer exactly like this. Still looks new.


 In veneering conc walls the biggest enemy is having voids behind the stone. The wall is mainly all flat / thin stones so it should be fine as long as the conc wall doesnt shift etc. I'd suppose control joints should be integral and aligned thru the composite wall at 20' intervals, as in any long conc wall.

We use 16 gauge ties drilled on one end with wedget or comparable anchors

I still dont like strips .....to me its for novice stone workers 101 with a brick hammer and a grinder and I suppose you'd be better doing the larger patterned stuff with pitched perimeter's and bellied faces! God I love those facets........ ''whole bellys"....you can have the ''dry strips''....getting hungry now:laughing:

maybe when you get a nice one I'll give you a hand but hurry, my arms are shinking.lol
thought you'd like this
http://www.perceptivetravel.com/issues/1109/new_england.html


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

I need to get up to Gungywamp. Only 30 minutes from my house.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Progress was stalled this last week. What do you all think of the height of this.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Looks high...what sort of throat? Is the opening going to be much lower?

I think it will be lazy as it stands, a little less if the opening tightens it up by a 6-8"


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

The opening to be 40" once it's all done. the owner wanted a fireplace that made no heat really as he doesn't want the dining room to hot for diner parties. He did mention that he might put a wood stove in it.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

RE; The opening to be 40" once it's all done. the owner wanted a fireplace that made no heat really as he doesn't want the dining room to hot for diner parties. He did mention that he might put a wood stove in it.

NO HEAT is up to him [with the fire intensity] because no matter how big the throat the radiating heat is the same. What he wont like though is if a large throat is needed is the rest of the house quickly freezing.

thats a nice situation to keep the throat at 8 or 9". just be shure to keep the damper near 12'' above the opening.....

I was at my son's last night and we had his 36'' orton variation going nicely with the damper at half. It is 18'' deep [plenty of room]and the slant is only about 3'' on 48'' ie the 12'' damper above opening height.
It is on an outside wall so the smoke chamber had to be leaned to clear the header at door height.

They are just learning to close the gap under the attic door and preheat the chimney...oh and that big ass kitchen hood fan they have! lol

I took a video maybe I can upload...having trouble with youtube.

Sean going up high with a fp opening doesnt make it lazy but rather sensitive to mistakes,staring out with too little damper/throat over lintel
lintel height.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

A fireplace that's has too high an opening draws the same amount of air from a larger space so the air it draws comes in slower and "lazier" creating potential turbulence and smoking. As you say if the throat and smoke chamber are well designed to compensate, (tighter throat opening to a taller leaner smoke chamber) it won't make a difference, but generally speaking a taller opening makes for poorer draw and a lazy draught


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Despite the way it looks it will be a 40x40 opening, its not going to be very large. There will be a 4" stone floor, so it is tall right now @ 52".


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Ahhh, makes sense


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

Heres a good fireplace book I recall being in the barn since I was a kid along with The Bennett Ireland Book on fireplaces.

It has just about every ''to do'' that made the conventional out of the morphed Rumford Slant. Some of them were what caused the demise of the Slanted Rumford.

Some styles do come close to the BIA an how I do mine

https://archive.org/details/DonleyBookOfSuccessfulFireplaces


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Nice book, ill order it for a memento! I think those numbers are pretty much standard everywhere. I have to make a better effort to have the smoke chamber slopes of equal angles. Sometimes Its easier to do something different to cut over a chimney or whatnot.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Like Francis said. It's radiant heat. You are heating the items in a room, not the air. So a deeper box with more squared off sides is going to reflect a little less heat,


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

CJKarl said:


> Like Francis said. It's radiant heat. You are heating the items in a room, not the air. So a deeper box with more squared off sides is going to reflect a little less heat,



Carl it's Frank to friends...  

Fireplaces are so tricky. They run with throat to opening ratios from 1:10 ''unchoked orton'' to 1:20 as with Buckley's straight backs and now with the 2 year long 1:30 which has become easy. 
But now with a ultra high 1:40 and 50 ''where it works for hours then ever so slight leaks apear'' is driving me nuts. 

I have greenish wood and I suspect it has something to do with it but I'm uncertain. I am trying to shorten the throat's length to keep the smoke in the rising plume, like that of a stright back so epa testing will be a cinch esecially at a very high ratio. I have done it successfully at the 1;30 but Im now compelled to master the 1:40 at least...

There are two masony kit fireplaces out there which compete with Buckley. One is Moberg's whom is supposed to be a fireplace guru and lives near Jim....the other is the Renaissance from Canada which uses a two passage throat to keep breast air separate from the heated rear smoky air....it won clean air awards however with the doors open it works on a terriblle 1:10 throat opening ratio...ouch! Their patent even mentions the Buckley Rumford epa test.

One thing certain is if the throat doesnt do the choking then the home's envelope will, which results in very cold rooms. Air is still needed with high chokes but at such small amounts that the everage home's crevaces suffice...I know I've been doing it 2 years now. 

Ive had a few investors ask about overheating due to a small throat opening......in which I thought was nuts,.. as long as the ample masonry and air space is provided. Then when I mentioned to my inventor friend he laughed and said, "Well dont build such a big fire"...lol

However there was one night when it went down to the low teens with 20 to 40 mph sustained winds and we lost power. I used up some old elm logs 8 to 12'' and kept the fireplace ''roaring all night''....I did put my hand on the brick below the mantle about 5' high and it was pretty hot...but not enough to burn the mantle albeit it is rabbited in an inch with 8'' masonry behind it.

A 36'' may get hotter say at about 4' where it's mantle may start...I havent gotten that far as I have been side tracked with new higher ratio asparations. :whistling


Karl have you ever seen the library in milford center or that round tower built with the pink granite by deep reiver area. misty rose whatever?

I love the large round rock foundation base on that library.....however whomever repointed it should be ashamned. Granite bridges there too its a nice stone setting.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

CJKarl said:


> Like Francis said. It's radiant heat. You are heating the items in a room, not the air. So a deeper box with more squared off sides is going to reflect a little less heat,


Oh for sure, one thing im sure of is its pretty easy to make a fireplace NOT radiate any heat more or less.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

You may also find the article helpful.





http://www.jlconline.com/fire-safety/successful-fireplaces-in-tight-houses.aspx#


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I got to the bottom of the first page and laughed at this. 



> The performance of many brick fireplaces can be improved immediately by removing the throat damper and smoke shelf, and installing a chain-operated damper at the top of the chimney. The results are a smooth, straight path for the exhaust and less smoking when a fire burns.


I dont think it is correct. 

When a vestal damper is open its not the damper that hinders the draft of the fireplace. 

I think a lot of masons start the smoke chambers way to wide. Especially if they start them to the sides of the brick walls, and dont move them in 4". then they are too flat, or places that catch smoke next to the flues. If they dont build an isolation wall next to the furnace flue that creates some issue. 

There are all kinds of problems, but the smoke shelf isnt one of them. Or the vestal damper, I dont even understand what that meant. 

The only advantage a top mount damper has is it keep the flue pre warmed. Pop it open and you think you have a good draw on the chimney when its just a warm flue already. Once the fire gets underway it still needs to perform, hot air up, cold air down, ect. 

Im not sure im in need of a book or article, perhaps someone looking to write one might seek me out, not the other way around.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Dont mean to sound brash either !


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

re the article;
Why Fireplaces Fail
When it comes to traditional open masonry fireplaces, masons have perpetuated outdated ideas about the smoke shelf, the mysteries of the smoke chamber, and the need for wide, but shallow-throat dampers. Today, it is clear that all three of these features work against successful fireplace performance (see Figure 1). Figure 1. Traditional fireplaces leak smoke into living space and don’t produce heat efficiently. The curving smoke chamber, the throat damper, and the smoke shelf all decrease the stability of the chimney draft. The smoke shelf and shallow-throat damper both act as obstacles to straight exhaust flow. And the smoke chamber actually reduces the strength of a chimney’s draft by slowing and cooling the fireplace exhaust. The performance of many brick fireplaces can be improved immediately by removing the throat damper and smoke shelf, and installing a chain-operated damper at the top of the chimney. The results are a smooth, straight path for the exhaust and less smoking when a fire burns.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I didn't read it but it seems that the author of that article doesn't know what a venturi is


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

All the 125 plus year old fireboxes I work on have a narrow throat and no shelf. Run quickly into a large common center flue. They draw like crazy.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Some boxes are less than 12" deep.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

The shelf doesn't matter. The narrow throat opening into a larger flue do. A smoke shelf just happens to be a narrowing of the throat


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

dom-mas said:


> The shelf doesn't matter. The narrow throat opening into a larger flue do. A smoke shelf just happens to be a narrowing of the throat


Sean I posted a reply to the paragraph I posted, but it didnt post...I basically said it was all bull. 
Carl is right about the shelf. It can be slanted upward with the chamber as some in the 1700's did. I rebuilt 5 of my neighbor's that had no shelfs like that.
A shelf is said to be bad if over 12'' i.e. The Rosin Papers.

Dr. Rosin also says the thin throat into a big chimney is bad like Sean says.However it isnt so......heck I've been doing over 2 years of 1:30 throat ratio burns with a 1-3/4'' by 47'' throat.

My short throat test went very well as I said on the other thread.
I.E. my 50'' slanted Rumford is burning nicely with a throat half the normal length yet still at a 1:30 ratio.:thumbup:

I'd love to elaborate but I can't yet. 
You all should come join the Rumford Fireplace blog...it's gonna get good. 
Wonder what Jim Buckley will say now that a large Rumford Slant has a equally short and more frugal throat.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Fancis Casini said:


> Sean I posted a reply to the paragraph I posted, but it didnt post...I basically said it was all bull.
> Carl is right about the shelf. It can be slanted upward with the chamber as some in the 1700's did. I rebuilt 5 of my neighbor's that had no shelfs like that.
> 
> Dr. Rosin also says the thin throat into a big chimney is bad like Sean says.


I don't get it what did I say? What I'm saying is that there doesn;t need to be a smoke shelf...not in any direction...what there needs to be is a tightening in the throat area...a restriction to create a venturi and increase velocity


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

oh........


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

The smoke shelf is supposed to act as a air "diode" and impede the downward airflows with restricting the updraft.. similar to reversion cones in exhaust headers and organ piping, and somewhat as smoothing the air flow changes from wind gusts, A "shock" absorber/spleen/draft accumulator for the air column flow.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

.....


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

How do you build a fireplace with no smoke shelf?


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Don't think you can and pass modern building codes. Most of these old chimneys have no damper either.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

JBM said:


> How do you build a fireplace with no smoke shelf?


http://heatkit.com/docs/rosin.PDF see figure 38 It's Dr Rosin's fave...no shelf....the old 1700 fp's which had one large kitch fp with satalite boxes adjacent and above had to have their chambers lean imediately back....they merely built the chamber over the throat in a leaning fashion like a tilted flue...hence the bottom of the chamber flue was also leaned as one widening flue at the throat.

About Dr. Rosin 
He admits air is stretchable ie expands with heat and compresses especially from the flame to the throat, but odly he stresses streamline everything.
However have you ever seen a Rosin F.P....Very short and offensively designed ie toatlly non vortex friendly just as the straight back clay pre cast throats.
Everything flows nicely upward and out with the home's warm air....ie its all about the throat ratio. 

ps air stretches from a draft's velocity at the throat hence high pressure before the throat and low after it in the the smoke chamber...hence the shock absorbing action..reversed with down drafts.

Shelfs dont hurt....if on an exterior fp they take time to warm though.
They are ash shedding vortex chambers which some rather have than in the atmophere. Again unless overly deep and cold they are good to have. Heck ash only escapes with high flow and heat loss anyhow!:thumbup: They also blot water!

Shelfs really dont stop eddys it's the throat velocity and throat chamber. The words throat chamber are too often not used together.:no:


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

JBM said:


> How do you build a fireplace with no smoke shelf?


it's all about having hart....udontnodat?....



http://hart-pagosa.com/Hart-Rumford/index.html :blink: getting the chills!


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Installing the laminar sheet waterfall.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Gas fireplace


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

It will be about 14' high. Veneer all around.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Any idea what the shelter tent and heat cost for the winter?

Area under the tent?

Many of the poles have to be reset as progress occurs? Seen the putlogs over the waterfall.

Only really large job here totally tented was a national level IV disease lab, temp controlled for minimum concrete cracking during cure. She blew down twice....:whistling

Love to see the rocks wet when finished.

Water features are fun, but here in Midwest they are hand grenades, few work for even ten seasons without massive repairs.:sad:


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Tent was about $65k for the winter. Including setup and teardown. (Which is happening this week)
Heat was around $300 a day for the coldest part of the winter. They could have had a clear span shelter for about $100k. Had to draw the line somewhere.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

L.P or Natural gas? at 300$ a day I'd guess L.P.

I'm trying to go nearly year a-round to retire a few years earlier.... lower above the "line" payroll in theory.... better help, maybe with higher annual net pay.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

CJKarl said:


> Tent was about $65k for the winter. Including setup and teardown. (Which is happening this week)
> Heat was around $300 a day for the coldest part of the winter. They could have had a clear span shelter for about $100k. Had to draw the line somewhere.






I know it was great for you,able to gather some extra coin over winter .:thumbsup: But were these owners so impatient they just could not wait till more conducive weather ?


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Huge project that got behind. Owner wants it done for pool season. Not that it's being wasted, but money is not a problem here.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

The owner does have a point......you'll be dead a lot longer than you'll be wealthy.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Yup the point in making money is spending it.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

CJKarl said:


> Huge project that got behind. Owner wants it done for pool season.  Not that it's being wasted, but money is not a problem here.






If someone is passing out money,no sense not getting in the line.:thumbsup:


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