# What's Wrong Here?



## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I'm submitting a proposal for the 2011 NEC, that will read in part, "...installers found utilizing push-in terminals on devices will be shot on sight".


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

JoeTedesco said:


> 110.3(B), See UL "RTRT" in the UL Directory at www.ul.com
> 
> "Screwless terminal connectors of the conductor push-in type (also
> known as ‘‘push-in-terminals’’) are restricted to 15 A branch circuits and
> ...


How bout them "wago's" Joe, they're a type of push in terminal, though used in place of a wire nut. We've been using them with #12, wonder if we shouldn't be?


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

Edumacate a non-sparky here.. Why the disgust with push-in terminals?

I see many of the new houses here wired that way and I assume they are a time saver.


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## JoeTedesco (Sep 3, 2006)

*Receptacles For Plugs And Attachment Plugs (rtrt) General*



Sparky Joe said:


> How bout them "wago's" Joe, they're a type of push in terminal, though used in place of a wire nut. We've been using them with #12, wonder if we shouldn't be?


We have to read the instructions that come with that product for any restrictions. The RTRT information is for:

*RECEPTACLES FOR PLUGS AND ATTACHMENT PLUGS (RTRT) GENERAL*

This category covers general use receptacles for use in wiring systems recognized by ANSI/NFPA 70, ‘‘National Electrical Code’’ (NEC), and outlets use in appliances and fixtures. It also covers some attachment plugs, male inlets, and cord connectors with nonstandard slot or blade configurations which are part of a line of wiring devices including receptacles. 

Other similar attachment plug devices are covered under Attachment Plugs (AXGV).

If they have a website I am sure it will include technical information. I still like twisting the wires and using a wirenut.


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## JoeTedesco (Sep 3, 2006)

*Here's one reason*



BuildingHomes said:


> Edumacate a non-sparky here.. Why the disgust with push-in terminals?
> 
> I see many of the new houses here wired that way and I assume they are a time saver.


Here's one reason:


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

At least it was grounded! :laughing:


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

Ya that's not good.

It may seem obvious, but what exactly happened there to cause that?


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

The little leaf spring that makes the contact fried. Heat caused by current draw causes them to anneal and they lose their grip causing arcing.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

BuildingHomes said:


> Ya that's not good.
> 
> It may seem obvious, but what exactly happened there to cause that?


Backwired devices contact the wire by a little "spur" of sorts inside the device. They are UL listed, and legal to use. Quite often, for reasons that may be obvious even to the layman, that little spur connection is unreliable. A loose connection will develop a lot of heat, thus the picture Joe has shared with us. That is a reasonably common find for a service electrician. The typical bad backstab service call is usually with the complaint that "half my XYZ room has no power". This is almost a sure bet that we'll find a failed backstab connection in the "chain" of receptacles that has burned open and isn't passing current. 

Screw terminal connections have proven more reliable over the years. I'll offer that a poorly done screw terminal connection can have the same problems as a backstab connection. At least with a screw terminal connection, you have the choice whether to do a good job or a sloppy job, and the result is highly visable. With a backstab connection, all you can do is strip the conductor, jam it in a hole, and hope for the best. For this reason, I do not backstab.


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## Dustball (Jul 7, 2006)

JoeTedesco said:


> We have to read the instructions that come with that product for any restrictions. The RTRT information is for:
> 
> *RECEPTACLES FOR PLUGS AND ATTACHMENT PLUGS (RTRT) GENERAL*
> 
> ...





Sparky Joe said:


> How bout them "wago's" Joe, they're a type of push in terminal, though used in place of a wire nut. We've been using them with #12, wonder if we shouldn't be?



I used them when I completely rewired my car trailer and they made the job much easier for me.

WAGO nuts-
http://www.wago.us/pdf/wall.pdf


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Dustball said:


> I used them when I completely rewired my car trailer and they made the job much easier for me.
> 
> WAGO nuts-
> http://www.wago.us/pdf/wall.pdf


We've been using them a lot lately, I like them due to how fast they are, just wasn't sure if they'll end up like the burnt receptacle in the other post. But using them in a commercial setting there's not much to burn nor innocent families asleep in bed if they do fail.

In fact lately we have a kid at the shop that makes us what we call 'pre-fab' boxes. Where he uses a regular 4s bonds it with a pigtail and black wago(for us to tie our grounds into), puts the mud ring on along with a special thing caddy makes that allows the box to be attached to the face of the stud and has a support that holds it stiff against the sheetrock behind the box.

It's pretty slick and quick other than having to make up a box with the mud ring already on.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

I was going to say it looks like a poorly staged, poorly photoshopped image. What in that picture makes anyone think that the person is going to back stab nor would the wires reach the terminals the way the cable is stripped so it couldn't possibly be hooked up.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

mickeyco said:


> What in that picture makes anyone think that the person is going to back stab nor would the wires reach the terminals the way the cable is stripped so it couldn't possibly be hooked up.


Wbat makes a porch contractor care? It was a preamble to discussion, is all.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

> Wbat makes a porch contractor care?


I like to tinker.



> It was a preamble to discussion, is all.


I know, it's just seems to contrived, all answers are speculation of what may be done.

I've gone ahead and put one together a "what's wrong" right now. I'll start everyone out.
1. The wire is not in a conduit.
2. You can't use 12 ga. on a 30 amp circuit.


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

JoeTedesco said:


> Here's one reason:


 
It looks like the ground screw is not tightened either.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

The pic threw me off too. It was obvious that the sheath was not stripped back far enough to make ANY connections so I just bypassed that as well as the runner not being marked.

BTW, I'm just here to keep an eye on what my sparkies are doing. I concentrate on ABYC/NMMA's doings.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Teetorbilt said:


> ABYC/NMMA's


Just curious what do those initials mean, think I've seen them twice no


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

ABYC = American Boat and Yacht Council?
NMMA = National Marine Manufacturers Association?

I've seen posts where Teetorbilt has mentioned marine parts.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I turned side work in the marine business legal in '89. We can handle anything related to yachts.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

mickeyco said:


> I've gone ahead and put one together a "what's wrong" right now. I'll start everyone out.
> 1. The wire is not in a conduit.
> 2. You can't use 12 ga. on a 30 amp circuit.


What's your deal Mickey? Upset that we are not posting pictures of porches in the electrical forum? Or that there is not a "porch builder" section where you may be king?

I always thought building a porch was a common summertime project done by any average homowner.

Point is, if you want to post random images put them in the gallery.


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