# Home owner blues!



## Plumber (Apr 19, 2007)

I have a HO that wants me to rework his MB single vanity and make it into a double vanity. (the drain comes in the side wall which is now going to be a 6-8" gap between vanity and wall) I was going to cap off the tee or cut it out and turn it into a dry vent and run up a 2' drain pipe to each side of the vanity and catch the old drain which is now a dry vent . Also install new water lines to each side of the vanity bowls.) He aslo has a leaky silcock, and wanted me to install a laundry tub in his garage which has the R/I already there. I figured around 4-6hrs to rework the drain and water lines for his MB vanitys and fix his silcock . I figured a return trip to install the faucets and the laundry tub. (his house is 50 miles one way) Since I'm friends with his brother in-law I'll try to give him a killer deal! $850.00 (he's suppling the faucets and sinks) I supply everything else. He comes back and said I thought it would be cheaper! How much just for the MB vanitys? Umm $550.00 which still included going back to hook them up when he gets them set. I haven't heard any thing for a few days so I called him up. He said well were getting ready to go on vacation and I'm going to think about it and get back with you when we return to town. I said that would be fine! have a safe trip! Well he calls me Friday Night and asked how much would it be if you just move the pipes and I'll hook up the sinks? I said $450.00. Which is the lowest I can go! The guy goes I thought it wold be cheaper than that! Let me think about it and I'll contact you later. :furious: I felt at that point to tell him to call another Plumbing company and see what they are charging. I know he can't get it done cheaper unless, Some bozo says "I can plumb" and really can't and goes and does the job or a plumbers apprentice does a side jobs and steals every piece of supplies for the job out their employers shop. 

How often do you really have to deal with these kind of people??.

Michael


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

All the time, walk away, when he returns from his trip and calls, increase the price and let him know that the earlier price was because you were slow. Let him get someone else, gaurantee he will be a PITA and won't be happy, bitchin' to everyone that you overcharged and did something wrong.


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## MechanicalDVR (Jun 23, 2007)

Let him call another plumber, maybe a flat rate guy that gets $400 to install a faucet.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*Self employed here, that scenario is constant.*
*Just today I got an E-mail from a potential customer that has postponed twice, asking me to bring my price down and get there in the next two days.*
*My reply: "I'd be delighted to call my $9,000 boiler job and cancel for tomorrow for you, but my mortgage is late and my wife and kid are sick of plain spaghetti."*

*Trouble with family & friends is they expect a break - add to that the fact that most people don't realize how expensive stock is and how difficult the actual work is, and we're just bad guys.*
*Let this genius do it himself or get a cheaper plumber, I can almost guarantee this guy will pick your work apart once it's done anyway.*
*Then you have to wonder what he says when you're not around...in fact that could be counterproductive in terms of your reputation.*
*Once HO's convince themselves you're charging too much it's all over but the cryin', till they get an idea what other shops charge.*


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Plumber said:


> How often do you really have to deal with these kind of people??.
> 
> Michael


Not much anymore, I can tell you that. I would flat out quit this business - and nearly have until I promised myself I would start being more "selective" of clientele.

you've got a full day's work - and a 2 hr round trip drive

Not to mention the time I'm sure he's taken from you. And, if im not mistaken - that's $850 the total cost amount - not your gross profit, right? Man, just isn't worth it, barely is at least.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Plumber said:


> How often do you really have to deal with these kind of people??.
> 
> Michael



Never. We don't work for HO's. The only time I have to deal with the HO is in the planning stage, and on the final walk through, unless they make changes, and that just adds profit to the job.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> Never. We don't work for HO's. The only time I have to deal with the HO is in the planning stage, and on the final walk through, unless they make changes, and that just adds profit to the job.


*There are times I miss that, oh yes there are.*


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *There are times I miss that, oh yes there are.*


There are times I wish I was still doing service work over trimming Dornbracht handheld showers with all the instructions in German and the dimensions given in metric.


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## Bill (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm with dirt digler, 10 hour day at best including travel, I get 80.00 per hour for two men, so that figure is right there with mine. I get that all the time from GC's. They always want you to come down on prices. I will come down a bit because my overhead is not that bad, but still there is the industry standard that I go by, that is how much would any self respecting company get. I like the ones that say "Can you come down a bit, the man up the road will do it for... First off if the man up the road will do it cheaper, then why are they asking me to come down? Its because they found out its right and are hoping to get it done cheaper elswere.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

abp said:


> I'm with dirt digler, 10 hour day at best including travel, I get 80.00 per hour for two men, so that figure is right there with mine. I get that all the time from GC's. They always want you to come down on prices. I will come down a bit because my overhead is not that bad, but still there is the industry standard that I go by, that is how much would any self respecting company get. I like the ones that say "Can you come down a bit, the man up the road will do it for... First off if the man up the road will do it cheaper, then why are they asking me to come down? Its because they found out its right and are hoping to get it done cheaper elswere.


For the rare occasion that we do T&M work, I bill $120.00 an hour for a plumber and $70.00 and hour for an apprentice, plus material, and I usually add a hundred bucks to the bill to cover parking and tickets.


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## Bill (Mar 30, 2006)

Where are you located?? Here Richmond, VA has the highest rates Ive seen, 80.00 was about 3 years ago, I really need to recheck


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

abp said:


> Where are you located?? Here Richmond, VA has the highest rates Ive seen, 80.00 was about 3 years ago, I really need to recheck


Almost all of the work we do is in downtown Chicago.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

now, here is the big question to all of you who bill T&M...do you bill for travel time at that rate? what if travel is 1 hr each way? or do you just bill those rates for the time on site?


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

mahlere said:


> now, here is the big question to all of you who bill T&M...do you bill for travel time at that rate? what if travel is 1 hr each way? or do you just bill those rates for the time on site?


Depends.

If I pull a guy off a job to do T&M work, all travel time is charged, if it is a a job that is going to be all day, the travel time is not billed, all of my guys have company trucks and are not paid for their travel to and from the jobsite.


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

"Since I'm friends with his brother in-law I'll try to give him a killer deal! "

Since I once met his Aunt's sister-in-laws' third cousins' step sons' foster-kid, I owe him........nothing.

From what you've said, so far, he already owes you $800 and you haven't done any productive work yet. Drop it and go drink beer with the b-in-law, it's cheaper.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> Depends.
> 
> If I pull a guy off a job to do T&M work, all travel time is charged, if it is a a job that is going to be all day, the travel time is not billed, all of my guys have company trucks and are not paid for their travel to and from the jobsite.


how about service work (jobbing)...our service guys have about 50% downtime...


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## Bill (Mar 30, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by abp 
Where are you located?? Here Richmond, VA has the highest rates Ive seen, 80.00 was about 3 years ago, I really need to recheck 

Almost all of the work we do is in downtown Chicago.

Ok, that explains it. Sounds as if I should move there. Just kidding, mortgage would probably be too much there


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*abp, he fergot ta mention, he's union.*


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

mahlere said:


> how about service work (jobbing)...our service guys have about 50% downtime...


Seriously? Holy smokes. Time to do some advertising, eh?


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> Seriously? Holy smokes. Time to do some advertising, eh?


they aren't sitting around twiddling their thumbs...that's all travel, material runs, estimates, etc....:laughing:

with traffic, we could take 25-30 mins to go 10 miles...


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

mahlere said:


> how about service work (jobbing)...our service guys have about 50% downtime...


When I did service work, years ago, we charged portal to portal, so all time traveled from the shop to the job was billed, from job to job during the day, it was fudged so that customers didn't complain, and we would eat an hour or so a day if necessary, but most of the guys could bill twelve hours in an eight hour day because we had a one hour minimum.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> When I did service work, years ago, we charged portal to portal, so all time traveled from the shop to the job was billed, from job to job during the day, it was fudged so that customers didn't complain, and we would eat an hour or so a day if necessary, but most of the guys could bill twelve hours in an eight hour day because we had a one hour minimum.


yep, we can get away with that on commercial, but not resi anymore...


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *abp, he fergot ta mention, he's union.*



We are also the most expensive contractor in the city.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

mahlere said:


> yep, we can get away with that on commercial, but not resi anymore...


We charged that on residential, and I am friends with the owner of that company and he still bills it that way, and he does mostly residential work.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

KillerToiletSpi said:


> We charged that on residential, and I am friends with the owner of that company and he still bills it that way, and he does mostly residential work.


more power to you then...we went to flat rate to avoid the headaches and get the rate we needed....


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## Bill (Mar 30, 2006)

UNION?? Oh, thats what I am doing wrong then


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## PARA1 (Jul 18, 2007)

*Run*

If you have already made one trip (50 mi) to the job send the guy a bill for your time just to get his reaction, then get on to something productive. He's already wasted too much of your time.:no:


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## Plumber (Apr 19, 2007)

*Took my ball and went home!*

I told the guy good luck on his project and watch some DIY on TV and give it a try. After it doesn't work right you can call me and the price will Double to come and fix your wrong doings! Goooood Luck!

Michael


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## The plumber (Jul 5, 2007)

I tell those customers "I'm a licensed professional. It takes 5 years to even think about taking the two day test to get the license I have. What do you think I'm worth?"


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## bobdog (Jul 4, 2007)

flat rate it! damn the clockwatchers!


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

Plumber said:


> I told the guy good luck on his project and watch some DIY on TV and give it a try. After it doesn't work right you can call me and the price will Double to come and fix your wrong doings! Goooood Luck!
> 
> Michael


*You did the right thing.*
*When I first started out I got a customer, Indian woman, that called asking me to come out right away and replace her KS faucet because it was leaking, I told her I couldn't because I was on another job.*
*She then insisted I give her a price over the phone and let her know when I was available, I did that, gave her a time for late the next day after I finished an already scheduled full days work.*
*Calls back an hour later to say she got a better price but that guy wouldn't be there till the day after I said I was available.*
*I took the bait, gave her the same price she claimed she'd gotten from the other guy, I was new at the game.*
*Did the work for less than half what I normally work for, while her non English speaking father literally stared over my shoulder and asked her to have me redo it (I refused) she then tried to tell me my price was still too high after the work was done, I refused, it took a half hour to "philibuster" the correct amount.*
*Come to find out after the fact, her husband mentioned the "other guy", was a handyman service, unlicensed, uninsured.*
*6 months later she calls, tells me her disposal is jammed and it's my responsibility because somehow the faucet caused it, again I refused.*
*She called again a year later, asking me to go there right away and repair a leaking shower valve that was staining the ceiling downstairs.*
*I'd mentioned to her while I was first there, it had been steadily dripping in the off position and I warned her it would cause damage to the downstairs condo.*
*I had given her a reduced rate to replace the valve the day I was there (like a fool), because I was already there and had one in my truck...she told me it was too expensive.*
*Now she wanted me to do the valve for the same price I'd quoted that day, In her attempts to "convince" me to go there right away she insinuated the leak was my responsibility for allowing it to continue while I was there the first time.*
*This is the worst I ever had, but there is one thing in common with almost ALL the customers who try to manipulate me...the work had been done cheap, or there was a good amount of haggling over price before the work was started.*
*I've said this on other sections of this forum, as soon as I get the impression that someone is specifically looking for cheap labor and willing to pit me against my peers, I just overbid..I know I am NOT doing my competitors any favors.*


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## The plumber (Jul 5, 2007)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *You did the right thing.*
> *When I first started out I got a customer, Indian woman, that called asking me to come out right away and replace her KS faucet because it was leaking, I told her I couldn't because I was on another job.*
> *She then insisted I give her a price over the phone and let her know when I was available, I did that, gave her a time for late the next day after I finished an already scheduled full days work.*
> *Calls back an hour later to say she got a better price but that guy wouldn't be there till the day after I said I was available.*
> ...


Indian woman....I have what I call plumbing induced racism. You guys know what I'm talking about I'm sure. I'm not racist by any means and I will befriend any race, but when it comes to plumbing and I hear an arabic or asian accent I'm already in the mindset that I do not want the job. I have been proved wrong on this several times, but in most cases I hear the same thing "that's to much the other company said they would do it for x$". I will not haggle with them because I know once they agree to the price they will try again when I'm finished.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*Exactly.*
*I'm not either.*
*I keep thorough notes on all calls/estimates, a good way to learn whether I'm pricing right or to track specific tendencies.*
*The list in my "too expensive" category is startling, the same thing over and over.*
*I've even considered renaming my business with the Hindi word for "expensive" either in the title or a slogan, just to avoid wasting my time being "convinced" I should take work from my fellow tradesmen on the cheap.*


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## ksensen (Apr 30, 2006)

Funny you guys should mention haggling with "cross cultural americans" I did a job recently for a contractor roughing in the electric and plumbing for a finished basement. Homeowner was Indian businessman, owned several Dunkin Donuts. I had given the contractor an estimate which he passed to the HO- All was good. Middle of rough in the HO pulled me off to do some "emergency" electric work at his Dunkin Donuts- nothing major but still 4 hours worth of time. I finished the basement job with in my estimate. Billed contractor- HO went ballistic- claimed it was WAY too much. That his nephew could have done it cheaper. Stalled and played games with the contractor for almost 2 weeks. Contractor got fed up, made an anymous call to the health department- they came out to inspect his restuarant and shut it down for a day. HO paid the contractor the next day. (Although I still haven't been paid for service work at the restuarant- might need to make another call to the health department)
- One thing I realized- I have spent a fair amount of time overseas especially in third world cultures. In a lot of cultures bartering and haggling over the price is standard practice. It is just assumed that the first price you give is just the starting point for negotiations. So a "Cross cultural american" used to this practice just assumes that our first price is open for negotiation. So I'm thinking of making it a practice to simply mark up my final bill by 50% and then let the games begin! (of course I'll probably get busted for some type of ethinc discrimination that way!- I quess I can't win)


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## aWorkaHolic (Oct 1, 2007)

Referrals from friends or family are easy to deal with as long as they emphasized that you can do the job professionally.

Since this guy seems to be nickeling and diming you, Imo, I'd walk from it. All the time you spend on this job risk you losing more $$ from a real job.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*Ksensen, been there too.*
*Did a commercial kitchen that was ready to be closed by the local health dept.*
*Gave the Arab owner a reasonable rate considering he wanted me to work nights/weekend to allow him to continue running days.*
*Each morning he'd come in while I was wrapping up, start picking my work apart.*
*On one day he tells me I ruined his $1200 expresso machine and would have to buy him a new one, had me running all over the place trying to figure out why the water wouldn't flow...all to discover he forgot to reset it after the power had been shut off for his electrician.*
*As we waited for the inspector he's writing my final check and says "I think I should pay about half what we agreed to for the aggravation...so here's a check for half."*
*I lost it, in front of about 8 employee's of his I proceeded to ream him up and down, no profanity, but I "audibley" explained to him that if he didn't have a check ready before the inspector got there he'd be down for business that day.*
*His almost fell over, I hadn't been the slightest bit adverse to that point.*
*There were 9 smirks in that room, and a bigger check in my hand when the inspector walked in.*


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Let him call another plumber, maybe a flat rate guy that gets $400 to install a faucet.


As a "flat rate guy" who gets $420.00 or more to install a faucet I am happy to report that I virtually never have to deal with people like this. The primary reason is that I do not go anywhere for free. My lowest service charge is $59 and for a 50 mile trip (I don't actually think I would travel 50 miles for work) it would be closer to $199 'cause there is no way I would drive 100 miles round trip without being paid. I did not always charge a service fee to come out and it took some time mentally to make the switch because I was always afraid that I would lose "business". Well in fact I did lose "business", the unprofitable nightmarish whining about nothing kind of "business". I don't have to deal with these people because when we explain that we have a service charge to come out the conversation is over because these people will not pay for service and it will never matter how little you charge them it will still be too much.

Oh yeah, our two biggest sources of revenue are repeat business from our clients and referals from our clients. Man we love working for people who appreciate what we do and how we do it.


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