# Pervious concrete



## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

*masonary*



superseal said:


> Hey Luk - funny you should say, a mason friend of mine just had a boatload of logo hoodies made up for the guys and nobody seemed to notice MASONARY grew an additional "A".
> 
> His excuse was, they spell it both ways :laughing:
> 
> ...


Yeah some of my competition here in town spells it that way on his business card. It gave me a chuckle until I realized that better spelling bettar not be the only thing I do bettor than him.


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

concretemasonry said:


> The development and experimenting was done years ago in Europe. It is just a challenge to get it used and installed correctly in the U.S. and forgetting about old traditions.


Those Europeans have everything first!:laughing:

After the development and experimentation phase, has this product become widely used in Europe? In areas with heavy freeze thaw cycles?


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

The Europeans have built with concrete for decades and have covered almost everything in the towns with some kind of concrete. Permeable paver were the first because they are closely controlled products/materials, but the pervious pavement followed and faced the learning curve from any non-progressive contractors because of the pre-conceived idea of bases and drainage.

Europe is far ahead in concrete because most of the major cement producers are there and spend a lot on development and construction improvement to increase the amount of concrete used. fortunately, they moved into the U.S. years ago and cleaned up the old, small operations that were not profitable and have concentrated on consolidation of aggregate, cement production and concrete products, to that promotion and development can be done to hopefully get the U.S. use up close to the per capita use that exists in Europe.


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

concretemasonry said:


> The Europeans have built with concrete for decades and have covered almost everything in the towns with some kind of concrete. Permeable paver were the first because they are closely controlled products/materials, but the pervious pavement followed and faced the learning curve from any non-progressive contractors because of the pre-conceived idea of bases and drainage.
> 
> Europe is far ahead in concrete because most of the major cement producers are there and spend a lot on development and construction improvement to increase the amount of concrete used. fortunately, they moved into the U.S. years ago and cleaned up the old, small operations that were not profitable and have concentrated on consolidation of aggregate, cement production and concrete products, to that promotion and development can be done to hopefully get the U.S. use up close to the per capita use that exists in Europe.


Interesting. 

So does the base construction change considerably with pervious paving? Is it different in warm and cold climates?


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Since it is pervious, there has to be place and way to move the water away and it may take two different layers of base and possibly some perforated pipe. - Very similar to installing interlocking pavers over a concrete slab where removal of excessive water is necessary. Water is the cause of freeze-thaw problems if it is not controlled.

A road across northern Wisconsin can heave all it wants and no one cares as long as the surface remains intact and continuous. A 3' frost heave may not be important because there is nothing around to compare it to. Even large trees with irons cano move a bit if there is not much snow cover.

Not something a cost-conscious contractor normally does, but does the job.


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

It's generally not the contractor, rather developer or owner, that is cost conscious when making this design decision. 

It's a proven method to collect surface run-off and have a controlled release back into the storm system vis a vis perforated pipes and holding tanks.

If the concrete is pervious, run-off is shed into the base, but collected via sub-drains. How is this different then the above proven method?


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## David L (Nov 25, 2011)

*Big Learning Curve*

I've been installing pervious concrete since 2007 with great success. The key is that I was trained by someone who actually knew what he was doing, and, I have spend the last few years doing R&D to further develop both the product and the installation techniques. 

Done correctly, pervious concrete designed and installed as water management system is a durable long lasting rigid pavement with high capture and infiltration rates (yes even in high clay soils) and requires little maintenance. While I am located in a mild climate I know several installers in the upper midwest and even one in Canada who have overcome the cold weather challenges you guys bring up.

Done improperly, well its a mess. The truth is this is not for amateurs, you either invest the time and money to learn how to do pervious concrete right, or don't do it. It's a specialty, and the concrete guy who says "hey if its concrete I can do " will find him self knee deep in trouble when he tries to do it with out proper training. He'll also give the product an undeserved black eye in the process.

If you like to know more about how Pervious Concrete is being used successfully to meet reduced run-off regulations and save money feel free to peruse my website and don't hesitate to contact me with any questions.


David Liguori

http://bayareaperviousconcrete.com


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

That;s cool stuff,. I'm sure there is quite an art to putting it down. I noticed the screeds are all rollers. I would imagine you DON'T want to consolidate this stuff when you place it.


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

Thanks David, nice to here from a guy who's actually installed the concrete. Looks like you have a good thing going there!

What sort of 28 day strength are you getting out of the concrete?

Do you, or can you place any mesh or rebar into the concrete?


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

They used to build houses with something similar here after the war when bricklayers were in short supply. Called No Fines concrete, the houses had condensation problems.


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## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

lukachuki said:


> gotcha....just picking...its misspelled under your name is all I was passive aggressively pointing out. fftopic:



fixed! never would have noticed that if you didn't point it out


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

I'd like to know more about pervious concrete. If guys are getting the stuff to perform well in colder climates with freeze thaw cycles, I wonder how the stuff holds up to snow plowing?


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

stuart45 said:


> They used to build houses with something similar here after the war when bricklayers were in short supply. Called No Fines concrete, the houses had condensation problems.
> View attachment 59539
> 
> 
> View attachment 59540


That's really interesting...... Any idea of why they would have omitted the fines?


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Rio said:


> That's really interesting...... Any idea of why they would have omitted the fines?


Lighter? More insulation?


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Concretemasonry aka Dick will fill you in.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Rio said:


> That's really interesting...... Any idea of why they would have omitted the fines?


As Karl said. Also a bit cheaper and put less pressure on the formwork.
The walls were between 8-12 inches thick, the outside stucco, and inside plastered. 
They were cheap social working class housing to deal with the housing shortage from war damage and a rising birth rate.
Here's some info. 
http://www.boltonsurveyors.org.uk/Wimpey.html


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

The walls were reinforced with mesh, although it says that they were not in that report. I don't know where they got that info from.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

This pic might show it better.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

I've been interested in this stuff for quite a while now and it looks really cool to me. Not to take away from the difficulty of a proper install, but it looks like it might be easier to finish than standard redi-mix. 

What do you do for control joints?


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