# Grout colors being true to their samples.



## andeeznuts (Feb 21, 2008)

Hello does anyone else have problems with using darker grouts and color issues. I have had two showers I have done one charcoal and the other like a dark green and both come out almost grey. Now when water hits it the color turns exactly like it should be. Im using tec grout and i was wondering is there a sealer are acid that will get it to the correct color any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

*Grout colours fading after the job is done.*

I'm with you on this problem. For years I always did Kerdi Showers, Kerdi Drains and set my tile with Non-modified thin set.

I have no real science or lab results but I can tell you once I switched to using Grani Rapid as a setting material on the floor and premium grouts we stopped having issues with the lighting on the grout.

I think it has something to do with portland cement and an effloresence issue with the non-modified thin sets.

Just guessing.

There really needs to be more research into this one area.

Leaching of modified thin sets.
Effloresence bleading of non-modified thin sets.
Easy to blame the installer or to much water but I have done these myself with almost no water and a few showers in the colour fades to grey.

My money is on the non-modified thin sets or grouting to early with modified thinsets.

Sorry to hear your troubles.

JW


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## andeeznuts (Feb 21, 2008)

i saw that tec sells a "like new" product that is acid based and gets rid of the eferveswhatevers from the cement so i might try that


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

I had issues with customs dark grout colors. Use sulfamic acid to aid with efflorescence and then use a grout stain or colorsealer. 


Try to not use too much water on initial grout clean up and make sure the water is clean as can be.


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## andeeznuts (Feb 21, 2008)

how many wet sponge wipe downs do you do after grouting i do 2


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

It's not the thinset, it's the grout.

I've used plenty of urethane over Kerabond and the color is fine. 

Efflorescence, schmescence. Remove the portland grout and the problem disappears.


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## andeeznuts (Feb 21, 2008)

Angus what kinda grout do you use?


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Never had an issue with spectralock either.


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

angus242 said:


> It's not the thinset, it's the grout.
> 
> I've used plenty of urethane over Kerabond and the color is fine.
> 
> Efflorescence, schmescence. Remove the portland grout and the problem disappears.


If the portland is in the Non-Modified thin set it just takes time and moisture before it bleeds to the surface.

Angus do you have any Black Quartz Lock 2 you can send me for a 2'x2' test board. I have wanted to mock this up for a long time.

Quartz Lock 2 vs Custom vs Mapei in a head to head. All boards set twice. Once with non-modified and once with Grani Rapid.

My money is on Custom with Non-modified being the worst board and Quartz Lock 2 with Grani Rapid as the best.

My shop is cleaned up and I have a number of "Private Tests" in the Que. This is one of the largest complaints online. I would like to see some more testing into the discolouration problems.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

John, I'm not understanding your issue with portland and non-modified.

Kerabond: Up to 40% portland
Ultraflex II: Up to 40% portland
LFT: Up to 40% portland
254 Platinum: Up to 45% portland
4-XLT: Up to 40% portland
255 Multimax: Up to 55% portland
253 Gold: Up to 40% portland

Are you seeing a trend there? Non-modified is the absolute least of your worries. So let's dig a bit deeper into efflorescence.

What is it?
It is a powdery deposit of water-soluble salt left over after moisture evaporates.

How does it form?
3 conditions must be met:
1) Water soluble salt must be present
2) Moisture present to render the salt into a soluble solution
3) A way for the solution to migrate to the surface to evaporate

So if we are discussing thinset, I see a few ways to eliminate the issue.
1) Don't mix thinset with water. A latex additive removes the water-soluble condition.
2) Don't use a thinset that's dependent on air to cure. Unless you have the ability to wait until a modified thinset is 100% cured before grouting, you can be trapping moisture under the tile/grout.
3) Non-modified thinset does not rely on air to cure. It will cure even when used to install porcelain tile and it grouted over.

So I see non-modified as not the problem. Yes, the use of a fast or self curing thinset should not be the cause of the efflorescence.


That's brings up John's other concern; latex leaching.
What is it?
Basically the same thing as efflorescence but the polymers that modify the thinset are what is brought to the surface.

What causes it?
While not as easy to pin down as efflorescence, it's basically the additives are not given sufficient time to cure. If water is introduced to the polymers/latex too soon, the cure process is stopped. You now have a situation where the moisture can push the uncured polymer to the surface. Temperature, location and atmospheric conditions can all effect cure time. 

This is why it's important to follow manufacturer's instructions. If they tell you to allow a thinset to cure for 24 hours before grouting, that doesn't mean finish setting time at 5PM on Monday and come back the follow day at 8AM to grout.

If you are tiling a shower, it does behoove folks to take a little extra time and install the base _correctly_..... 

My argument on not having these issues arise based on the grout you use makes some sense. I get crap all the time about the 7 day wait for urethane grout to cure. If you're setting the shower base with modified thinset, you are only contributing to the long term success of that base by waiting the 7 days. 

Also, the absorption rate of urethane or epoxy grout is around .05%. Not much is going to leach through these kinds of grout.

Portland grout can be affected by efflorescence and/or latex leaching.

So,

All thinsets contain portland (except epoxy). Nothing points to non-modified being more prone to efflorescence. Modified thinsets can also lead to latex leaching if not allowed to cure properly. Rapid set thinsets can improve the situation (success rate) but you have an extremely lessened working time (approx 20 mins). Urethane or epoxy grout will almost eliminate the ability for salts or polymers to leach up. 

:clap:


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Angus, I'm going to change your name to Mike's Plumbing :laughing: (man that was a long post)

I haven't had color issues with any grout that I've used yet...

Lat. 1500 w/ water or additive
Spectralock 
Quartz Lock 2
PermaColor

As far as thinsets, I used to use a lot of the Laticrete Multipurpose and tried Custom twice...
Recently its been more higher end Laticrete thinset and Kerabond once, did not see any kind of trend on cbu, ditra, kerdi, Hydroban, watertight or Noble products???


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Does the way you mix it have anything to do with it??
On the Laticrete grouts I lay the bag out and kneed it like dough and then mix on low speed.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

John is suggesting the problem with grout discoloration could originate with non-modified thinset.

Improperly mixing portland grout could be a problem. My biggest concern is the amount of water used during mixing and cleaning. Of course, I don't use cementitious grout so no problems there :jester:


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

Nice stats Angus.

What do you have on 

Portland cement Grey vs white?

Hybrid Cement cut with fly ash?

I've been told that "White Thin Set" is better than "Grey Thin Set" and that in construction we are getting "Fly Ash" added to our cement orders.

JW


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