# Kickout Flashing, the mythical beast



## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

I got a few calls last month for repairs for damage due to missing kickout flashing so I've been keeping my eyes peeled. No one is kicking out! I haven't spotted one example since I started looking. 

Is it a new practice? Is there a better method? What gives?


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

We run into it on most house's we repaint where a garage meets the main house. We're always doing siding replacement before painting and I'd guess 90% of them we have to replace siding on the main house right there and most of them it's the whole strip all the way down.

We always put kickout flashing where it is needed but like you, I've almost never seen it done. I hadn't heard about it before joining here because it's just not something I see anywhere. But we're always fixing the aftermath of it not being present and putting it in on our jobs when needed.

I don't know of a better method. It works great.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

I iust wrote a small article about this exact subject! We seem to be the only ones or one of the few that installs them in my area. We repair a lot due to missing kick outs.

Here was one repair we did this summer. House was 6 years old!


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

overanalyze said:


> I iust wrote a small article about this exact subject! We seem to be the only ones or one of the few that installs them in my area. We repair a lot due to missing kick outs.
> 
> Here was one repair we did this summer. House was 6 years old!



We did one that bad last year. Crazy how much water gets back there!


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> We did one that bad last year. Crazy how much water gets back there!


Oh man you're right. This one rotted the box, the sheathing, & sub-floor. We had to remove the front door, demo the front porch, remove the cultured stone....crazy amount of work for a $.20 piece of flashing.


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## Ohteah (Apr 3, 2013)

Two winters back, I installed something like 600 plus kickouts in a townhome development. The amount of damage I've repaired from lack of them is staggering. 
We retrofit them all the time in stucco. Big builders in my area have caught on the last 2yrs or so. 
Makes sense anywhere fascia or gutter terminates, one should be installed. 

If you have a 40' span w 10 pitch roof, how much water in a heavy rain is channeling down that roof to wall junction? Roofs always get shingles and stepped before stucco or siding goes on, all that water basically dumping behind the wall.
Keeps us busy as can be.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Thats always the compliant us real contractors have with the hit and run guys. It takes a little time to bad work to expose itself. These flippers are keeping the wrong people in business and harming our image.


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## Ohteah (Apr 3, 2013)

These were actually spec d by an engineer ( I know). There like v 3.0
I think. Come retrofit like 4 or 5 of those on your house, cost you about as much as one of those Festool things .


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

overanalyze said:


> I iust wrote a small article about this exact subject! We seem to be the only ones or one of the few that installs them in my area. We repair a lot due to missing kick outs.
> 
> Here was one repair we did this summer. House was 6 years old!


How compromised were those I joists?


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Funny story about today. Doing some repairs around a house for my parents preacher. They needed a new roof on a mud room, along with a bunch of other stuff. I put one in and a guy that's been with me for a little over a month (never done a roof with me) goes what the phuck is that. I had to explain how water gets behind the siding blah blah blah.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I can't think of a job we did where kick out flashing wasn't already installed. Really common around here.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

If I get a call for a leak I am looking for fascia that dead ends into siding as I pull in. A few times I have pointed to such a spot and asked if that is where the leak is. Both times I have asked it has been the case. I love leak repair jobs and can't believe how often I hear that customers have had numerous other people fail at stopping them. I give a firm price to stop a leak and I warranty it.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Kickouts, crickets, diverters, I've seen a lot of them absent.


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## john5mt (Jan 21, 2007)

hdavis said:


> Kickouts, crickets, diverters, I've seen a lot of them absent.


Seems like every roof or siding job i do two or three of those things is missing


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm not into the whole diverter thing


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

Not very common around here, after all caulk seals everything. I do them when reroofing or residing.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

jlsconstruction said:


> I'm not into the whole diverter thing


Better than nothing, sometimes. Boatloads of chimneys in Texas were wood framed exterior to the wall, so you wind up with big expanses of roof hitting a 3-4 foot wide chimney. They should have had crickets - the volume of water will get past counter flashing. A lot of people won't pay to have the roof torn up and a cricket put in, so the best you can do is diverters.


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## Chad McDade (Oct 14, 2012)

It's pretty rare to see kick out flashing around here. I use them and I know 3 other guys that use them - but we all worked for the same guy 20 some years ago and he was fanatical about them.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

hdavis said:


> Better than nothing, sometimes. Boatloads of chimneys in Texas were wood framed exterior to the wall, so you wind up with big expanses of roof hitting a 3-4 foot wide chimney. They should have had crickets - the volume of water will get past counter flashing. A lot of people won't pay to have the roof torn up and a cricket put in, so the best you can do is diverters.



I agree they are better than nothing, but there only reason for existence is because someone did something wrong the first time.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

kick out is a diverter..


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## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

jlsconstruction said:


> I agree they are better than nothing, but there only reason for existence is because someone did something wrong the first time.



What's the right way? Better design? 

I've only run into this flashing scenario doing repairs, never while roofing or siding something I framed.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Agility said:


> What's the right way? Better design?
> 
> I've only run into this flashing scenario doing repairs, never while roofing or siding something I framed.



Over a door should have a counter gable over a window should have a gutter, behind a chimney should have a cricket.


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## JAH (Jul 27, 2014)

Agility said:


> What's the right way? Better design?
> 
> I've only run into this flashing scenario doing repairs, never while roofing or siding something I framed.


The lack of a kick out or proper flashing is one my pet peeves. I address the issue when framing. 
Before the ledger rafter gets fastened to the gable. I will put grace and a large piece of coil stock on the gable, behind the general area of the rafter tail. When siding, the top of the appropriate clapboard get tucked under the bottom of the coil. 
If the siding is masonry of vinyl we just use a kick out


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## JWilliams (Nov 11, 2008)

I've seen a few older houses without a kick out but all the new construction I've done has them


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

The lack of kick out is one of the few things can make my life miserable just installing something as simple as gutters.
Butting up a gutter to the j, siding, or stucco with out it will sometimes cause it to run right over the end cap or in between end cap and flashing... When homeowner sees water going down wall its always assumed the gutter guys fault and the first call they make...
I try to cover my ass before hand on many problematic areas but :no:shouldnt be my job...


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## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

JAH said:


> The lack of a kick out or proper flashing is one my pet peeves. I address the issue when framing.
> 
> Before the ledger rafter gets fastened to the gable. I will put grace and a large piece of coil stock on the gable, behind the general area of the rafter tail. When siding, the top of the appropriate clapboard get tucked under the bottom of the coil.
> 
> If the siding is masonry of vinyl we just use a kick out



I like this method a lot. 

When using a kickout diverter, are you buying something manufactured or making it using step flashing?

The last two repairs I did I used Dryflekt's enormous plastic diverters ($12 retail) because looks weren't a concern but large volumes of snow and water were. 

I'd rather buy a diverter than make one, regardless of whether I'm spending dollars over pennies, but not if Dryflekt's version is the only one on the market.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

try this..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXHOiE2xfpU


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm the only one I know of out here that installs kick outs. Driving around I always look at how others are building and have not once seen one installed.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I like using scrap gutter coil for the weight and to guard against heavy ice and potential debris cleaning.

A little gutter seal and rivet and of course, the correct lap and you're good to go. 

Retrofits are common around here as well as many of the big builders simply omitted them in oblivion 

Regardless, it's certainly a easy way to turn a Mcmansion into a Mcmushroom I say.

That usually gets my customers attention :laughing:


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

I put them in when I don't see them. I dnt see them often. I usually do them out of copper and solder them.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

thing is you can just fold them..no seam no solder


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## JAH (Jul 27, 2014)

Agility said:


> I like this method a lot.
> 
> When using a kickout diverter, are you buying something manufactured or making it using step flashing?
> 
> ...


I save the extra step flashing that comes with sky light kits. They make great stock for kickouts. Generally I'll trim the step so the vertical leg is 2" - 2 1/4" tall and round the top, outside corner. 
Im in Ma. with Centerline Mv and Moring Wood. Around here very, very few contractors use a kickout. I seriously doubt a pre made kickout would be a in stock item at most lumber yards.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> thing is you can just fold them..no seam no solder



That's how I do them, you don't even need the needle nose like the video. I have a vise on the work bench in the trailer to get my bends tight


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## JWilliams (Nov 11, 2008)

Si Senor Struble


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

Tom Struble said:


> thing is you can just fold them..no seam no solder



Can u fold copper step flashing too?


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Since I've been meaning to try this,...I ran out to the home office and fiddled with this.

Not sure I can do it with .028 gutter stock though. Time for another experiment :whistling


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Morning Wood said:


> Can u fold copper step flashing too?


sure..steel too:thumbsup:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

This is an easy detail to do that makes a difference.


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## JWilliams (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks for posting that video Mr. Struble.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I used dryflekt on my last roof, they are very nice, and wrap around the drip. They add up though at $12 each. I need to find a place to buy them in bulk


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## JAH (Jul 27, 2014)

superseal said:


> Since I've been meaning to try this,...I ran out to the home office and fiddled with this.
> 
> Not sure I can do it with .028 gutter stock though. Time for another experiment :whistling


Wow, thats some fancy brake work.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

Neat video, but when he was talking about how water just runs under the cut , it is no wonder the way it was cut and bent.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

JWilliams said:


> I've seen a few older houses without a kick out but all the new construction I've done has them


 we work primarily on houses built in the 1920's and earlier. I 
NEVER see them used, EVER on the original work. EVER.

once aluminum or vinyl siding make their ugly appearance on the house---- sometimes find kickouts- but never on the original materials.

which tells me that the kickouts are more of a symptom of the vinyl/aluminum--- than anything else.
Stephen


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

well..welcome to reality..

and i would call b.s. if you said you have never seen an issue


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## Nick R (May 20, 2012)

I don't see them around here, I asked a roofer if he was going to install them on an addition I did that was getting vinyl, he didn't know what I was talking about. I did it during siding. (Not my roofer, long story). 

In older homes I do see flashing, mostly lead and sometimes formed down into the gutter. My father always backed up the last step with either lead or unbent step leading out on top of the next course of siding if no gutter. This was all cedar clapboard or shingles. I never see any on vinyl. 

I did have a good job this year where one leaked for so long, it rotted the door header that was below it out, and rotted the band joist to the house out too- no deck flashing either.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

All the old houses I work on had the gutter integral with the roof system and no need for a kickout. Original flashing is long gone, but evev on steep pitches better roofing jobs would run steel continuously along valleys and drip edges.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

look a few feet down..it's really no wonder that siding guys will find the damage from no diverter way before a roofer will..


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Nick R said:


> I don't see them around here, I asked a roofer if he was going to install them on an addition I did that was getting vinyl, he didn't know what I was talking about. I did it during siding. (Not my roofer, long story).
> 
> In older homes I do see flashing, mostly lead and sometimes formed down into the gutter. My father always backed up the last step with either lead or unbent step leading out on top of the next course of siding if no gutter. This was all cedar clapboard or shingles. I never see any on vinyl.
> 
> I did have a good job this year where one leaked for so long, it rotted the door header that was below it out, and rotted the band joist to the house out too- no deck flashing either.


yes..you will often see the first tin over lapping the clapboard which diverted any water over the face of the siding,a kick out will put it in the gutter where it belongs


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## JWilliams (Nov 11, 2008)

Tom Struble aka The Siding Master


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

well we work with what we have..not everybody gets to work with first class historic materials,and if i was the average h.o.i think i would rather have someone that was more capable installing ..well lets say ''average materials''then someone who thinks those products beneath them


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> yes..you will often see the first tin over lapping the clapboard which diverted any water over the face of the siding,a kick out will put it in the gutter where it belongs


 that's exactly what we do find---- however it's most typically under a 16" overhang as well. There is basically no water there . Definitely more water hitting the siding out in a middle of a wall--- than at that spot.

stephen


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> well..welcome to reality..
> 
> and i would call b.s. if you said you have never seen an issue


 NEVER seen an issue?????--- I would have to really,really,really really think long and hard to come up with one.

vinyl and aluminum---- many examples spring imediately to mind.

But I am just commenting on what I find--- YOUR mileage may vary.
stephen


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> well we work with what we have..not everybody gets to work with first class historic materials,and if i was the average h.o.i think i would rather have someone that was more capable installing ..well lets say ''average materials''then someone who thinks those products beneath them


 I think that's well said.
we all have our niche in the world.

stephen


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

I was putting them in, until the siders came behind me and beat them flat to the wall instead of cutting around them.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Stephen H said:


> that's exactly what we do find---- however it's most typically under a 16" overhang as well. There is basically no water there . Definitely more water hitting the siding out in a middle of a wall--- than at that spot.
> 
> stephen


..i guess as a roofer you wouldn't find wall issues


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

catfish said:


> I was putting them in, until the siders came behind me and beat them flat to the wall instead of cutting around them.


funny... usually it's the siders that install them


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

Tom Struble said:


> ..i guess as a roofer you wouldn't find wall issues


Florida, installed under the starter course. Now all flashing has to have plastic cement under the shingle.


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## NCFHOME (Dec 7, 2014)

No one around here uses kickout flashing. I did a job 2 years ago with EIFS. Major major rot because on no kickout. We installed the kickout and the stucco guy stuccoed around the flashing.

How do you guys run your vinyl siding around the kick out? Just seems more difficult then cutting a slot in wood or hardi siding.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

..it's the exact same thing


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

kick out over rated...easier to just bend the shingle up a bit at the wall...works the same :whistling


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## hardtroofing (Jan 23, 2015)

I really like ottea's pics of his kick outs It is very similar to Dryvit (stucco) spec. I have been using this design since the early 2000s. I have failed to find a better design.

David Reinhardt


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