# How not to do a Chimney me thinks



## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

Got asked to look at the chimney while I was there doing some other items, as there was water coming in on the inside. Exterior brick was in bad shape as was the flashing. So we recommended taking down at least the brick and rebuilding.
This what we found when we took down the brick


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

wow:blink:


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Just little duct tape would of solved that problem.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

The vapor barrier is all wrong on that chimney, no wonder it was leaking. :laughing:


All we can see is the filler work, which isn't normally very attractive. Yes it is a bit rough, but what you have covered up is really the important part.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Got to have some sort of filler....


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## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

It was only covered as there was rain coming. I am not a mason nor do I have much experience with chimneys which is why I got a mason to do the job. 
Are you saying that this is acceptable. The block should not be layed and bonded together.??


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

What did your mason say?


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## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

He is taking it down and rebuilding it laying the blocks and using mortar between them.


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## sbcontracting (Apr 22, 2010)

Just so we're clear.... can you please repeat that? :jester:


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

I think Avante means "fast", but isn't that "Avante-Garde" art?


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## Diamond D. (Nov 12, 2009)

Personally, I would have laid those blocks proper, but it's called rubble fill for a reason. 
The shell is the outer structure, the box, chamber, throat and chimney are the inner structure, and the rest is "rubble fill".
Your only talking about, what, about 6 feet around the box ,chamber and throat, before you hit the chimney? 
Then, depending on the lay out and flue arrangement, some to none, rubble fill up the chimney. You want to keep a gap around the flue.

It's a structure within a structure, really.
You don't want a solid unforgiving mass. 
There is lot of different things going on in the fireplace and chimney, leave room for movement.

Stay loose, 
Keep the home fires burning,
D.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Just caulk it.


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## Splinter hands (Aug 31, 2011)

:laughing::laughing: WTF :laughing::laughing:


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

I would have laid the 2 bearing base courses properly, but the dozen or so block you see stacked up vertically are just rubble fill as stated before and would have been capped off by the outside of the smoke chamber. 

BUT!!...if the 2 base courses and the fact that it leaks is any indicator. One could assume this is a low quality job.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Also you would be able to see the hearth slab in my chimneys as it runs throughout the entire inner chimney. Not code necessarily, but the best way to do it.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

CJKarl said:


> Also you would be able to see the hearth slab in my chimneys as it runs throughout the entire inner chimney. Not code necessarily, but the best way to do it.


Thats the way I do it also, cause that is how I learned, but I don't know why. 

Why is it better to have the hearth slab level through the whole fireplace?

The old saying about a true craftsmen making sure the stuff you can't see is just as accurate as the stuff you can see comes to mind here. I never put a level on my false work and I never strike the joints of filler brick with the exception of the interior throat brick. Can't see the advantage of taking time to make that stuff look pretty. I still keep bond as much as possible but inside a chimney doesn't really matter too much.


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## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

Ok so it is normal to have loose fill around the chimney thank you all for the info. Like I said I called in a mason and he is rebuilding the chimney. I had said to him was that normal and that it looked like crap and hence he followed with we should re build the whole thing.
It would seem that although it is crappy looking it is normal practice and should have been left alone.
I think with my comments I maybe pushed the mason into taking in some extra work.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Anderson said:


> Ok so it is normal to have loose fill around the chimney thank you all for the info. Like I said I called in a mason and he is rebuilding the chimney. I had said to him was that normal and that it looked like crap and hence he followed with we should re build the whole thing.
> It would seem that although it is crappy looking it is normal practice and should have been left alone.
> I think with my comments I maybe pushed the mason into taking in some extra work.


Its normal to have broken brick and block used as fill around the firebox, but there should have been an 8" wall on each side properly laid, and I dont see that. There is a way to seal off the firebox and face brick that I am sure wasnt done the way I like to see it done, resulting in possible exposure to the jacks inside. Hence why they keep the jacks 2" away, because they cant rely on a mason to parge and correctly tie in and block off this area.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

It couldn't have been a real mason that built it, 'cause I don't see any beer cans in there.....


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Anderson said:


> Ok so it is normal to have loose fill around the chimney thank you all for the info. Like I said I called in a mason and he is rebuilding the chimney. I had said to him was that normal and that it looked like crap and hence he followed with we should re build the whole thing.
> It would seem that although it is crappy looking it is normal practice and should have been left alone.
> I think with my comments I maybe pushed the mason into taking in some extra work.


Well if the mason didn't come and take a look at it first, then shame on both of you for assuming the thing was shot. Your description of the brick being in bad shape would lead me to a similar conclusion with out seeing it in person. 

Often I see brick spalling and broken above the roof line, but farther down it is ok. Then you're just looking at a new top which is cheaper than a new skin from the ground up. At this point it doesn't really matter, cause it is already down and gone. Only one way left to go now and that is straight up.:clap:


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

I am sorry but I have to express my feeling about this. Unfortunately I do not have as much of exprience as you guys do(dakzaag) and I do involunteraly agree with your opinions but I think this chimney is bull ****...it should have been built properly...this structure looks like monstrosity to me...all chimneys I ve built personally by myself(maybe 4 so far) I ve never used CMU units,just straight brick and if I used CMU units I would ve never let this **** happen...I understand reasoning behind,but I just subconsciously can't approve it.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Mr. Italy

I don't know much, but an 8" cmu is equal to 9 brick. Do a little math and it becomes pretty obvious that one can build the false work of a chimney a lot faster with block. Not 100%, but from the ground up to the floor of the hearth, and then more in the back. 

Ya it looks like crapola, but I think they tore the exterior down versus it falling in the night. My work usually looks better, but I am sure yours would look better than mine so it is all relative.:thumbsup:

The only reason we can't see the beer cans is they are stuffed in the block.:thumbup:


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dakzaag said:


> Mr. Italy
> 
> I don't know much, but an 8" cmu is equal to 9 brick. Do a little math and it becomes pretty obvious that one can build the false work of a chimney a lot faster with block. Not 100%, but from the ground up to the floor of the hearth, and then more in the back.
> 
> ...


 
Sir my work could look better only 10-15 years down the road regardless of matereial I use and thats why I appreciate and come back to this forum so much.
Because people like you and many more on this site give the unlimited amount of experience,quality and drive for me to improve my workmanship and work on my mistakes.

As far as what you saying,as I mentioned in previous post,it makes perfect sense to me. However I think I am just too stuck in over nitpicking stuff when it comes to certain things.

One of wide-used ways to build what we call "fences" back in Italy would be limestone block that is unfrotunately almost fully abscent from American market this days.

People used to built 6 foot walls out those (Due to relative cheapness) of material back home ...spacing would basically work like staggered pattern that has been placed on concrete foundation (dug out,rebared,poured footing) that had four normal full rows and then blocks would have gaps in between.

I remember one time my grandpa was hired to parge one of those jobs and I was learning..we had to fill in the gaps first before we could parge...he would fill it with rubble,broken off pieces of limestone and then parge over the top,I just kept using chop saw with diamond blade to cut and fill my parts...I guess its just me


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

Remind your contractor to put wall-ties in this time around, and make sure there's at least 4" solid block behind the backside of the firebox...............


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

He would have to come off the inside wall 4", and might not have the hearth for it.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

TheItalian204 said:


> Sir my work could look better only 10-15 years down the road regardless of matereial I use and thats why I appreciate and come back to this forum so much.
> Because people like you and many more on this site give the unlimited amount of experience,quality and drive for me to improve my workmanship and work on my mistakes.
> 
> As far as what you saying,as I mentioned in previous post,it makes perfect sense to me. However I think I am just too stuck in over nitpicking stuff when it comes to certain things.
> ...






Hey, we are all here to learn and share, I appreciate your input and ideas as much as anyone else that posts here. :thumbup:

I think your grand papy was demonstrating the point that you have to make money on a job and the behind work isn't the place to show your skill. 

We have all seen places where they tore down a building and the common wall looked pretty nasty cause the buildings were built at the same time. Some times I think about that when I am tossing filler brick in at 20 a minute hoping nobody ever sees this ever. :thumbup:


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Here's the inside of a Regency building with the plaster removed. Even though it's dog rough brick and stone work it's managed to stay up all these years.


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## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

I do a lot of fireplaces and I only see one problem with this and that is the block standing on end. I will never stand block. Other then that it looks like fill to me. Most firplaces when "properly built" look like this. When they are hollow then you can worry.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I feel differently. I don't like the edge laid block.


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## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

I was saying the block should be laid in its load bearing capacity not on its side and not stood up. I normally run 4" CMU for fill though. It can be laid much cleaner and cut much easier. if its a big void then the 8" CMU's go in


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## Diamond D. (Nov 12, 2009)

jomama said:


> Remind your contractor to put wall-ties in this time around,


You better, first, check with the AHJ, if your thinking about using those galvanized, corrugated thingies. :laughing::laughing:




> and make sure there's at least 4" solid block behind the backside of the firebox...............


Although, at this point that is probably not going to happen. :no:
Since the ledge is only, thick as a brick.

Carry on,
D.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I guess I'm not afraid to admit it but I must be an idiot. Everyone else seems to think that "rubble fill" is normal for a fireplace/chimney. I've never seen it. Is it supposed to be the semi solids? I've only built a firebox, backed it up with semi solid 6" block, carried that through for the chimney over top of the throat and allowed for facing if it was exterior. What is this rubble fill? Is it just to make the fireplace look bigger from outside? How did the face brick tie in to anything? 

Not a firplace expert by anymeans.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> I guess I'm not afraid to admit it but I must be an idiot. Everyone else seems to think that "rubble fill" is normal for a fireplace/chimney. I've never seen it. Is it supposed to be the semi solids? I've only built a firebox, backed it up with semi solid 6" block, carried that through for the chimney over top of the throat and allowed for facing if it was exterior. What is this rubble fill? Is it just to make the fireplace look bigger from outside? How did the face brick tie in to anything?
> 
> Not a firplace expert by anymeans.


From the extra Portland from pouring the hearth to broken bricks and blocks there is usually almost enough to fill behind the firebox on a new construction chimney. 

I can tell by looking that whoever built that chimney did the fireplace before the throat. He relied on the fill to not only carry the throat but to also get the 8" of masonry on the sides. Inspectors around here would eat that Guy alive.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Oh it's literally just fill. Like cigarette butts and beer cans.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Mortar should be used liberally. The fill shouldn't have anything bearing on it though.


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## Diamond D. (Nov 12, 2009)

I'm with ya, Dom, I would build the "shell" with minimum 4' solids, with a brick veneer.
Most of the time I use 8's.
I would do the same, even with a 6"-8" stone veneer. 
That is, if you have that, size allowance.

Meanwhile, if the local codes allow, there is nothing wrong with building the minimum, a brick shell...
On any size opening...
Then using the"rubble fill" till you hit the chimney.
Yes, ciggies and beer cans... :drink: But, junk block and stone fills up the space faster.


As I'm sure you've heard...
It's not rocket science.

Run up the (solid) brick and be done with it.

Keep the home fires burning,
D.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

All I can think of to say is....WOW!


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Diamond D. said:


> I'm with ya, Dom, I would build the "shell" with minimum 4' solids, with a brick veneer.
> Most of the time I use 8's.
> I would do the same, even with a 6"-8" stone veneer.
> That is, if you have that, size allowance.
> ...


What really puzzles me though is that the outer ledge for brick looks to be only 4", without being tied to anything it's really unsubstanial, wouldn't pass here. Let alone the fact that the firebox would have to be incerdibly tiny for there to be any semi solids backing up the firebox.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

I will point out that there are several areas of concern that are being posted about. ( I think)

1. The false work is not laid out with any bonding consideration. Some of the block are laid on their side and some on their end. While it is always stronger to maintain bond, (1 unit on top of 2) in the wide open area behind a typical firebox, what is pictured isn't necessarily an indication of a poorly laid fireplace, but it is not pretty. Again, not putting mortar between the units is pretty lazy but it doesn't really affect the integrity of the overall fireplace. 

2. Material used for fill. The picture might demonstrate that broken brick and rocks and mortar were dumped into the opening behind the firebox. I cannot really tell by looking if that is the case in these pics. I have tore down chimneys and found clear examples of this practice. I cannot understand this practice, because laying block or brick seems much faster to me than gathering up broken pieces of stuff and dumping it in from the top with mortar layered in somehow. I have a small inventory of left over brick that I use for false work to conserve the face brick on a chimney job. 

I can say that it is a real pia to remove the broken stuff since it has no consistant joints and therefore comes apart in much smaller chunks. My personal opinion is that since you already have mortar and brick or block on the job, use those materials for filler and try to lay it with nomal bonding to insure strength and stability. I don't necessarily plumb and level my false work, I can eyeball it close enough. I also don't strike the joints of false work.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

JBM said:


> He would have to come off the inside wall 4", and might not have the hearth for it.


I see the problem now, as at first, I thought those brick were part of the back-up due to how big the joints were. But, I guess they actually are the firebrick from the box. I'd still try to corbel that out a hair at the bottom to ensure there was a decent air-space between the firebox back and the veneer, or better yet, get an inch or so of insulating castable in there to keep the heat off of the veneer. I have an outdoor FP at home, and the veneer is literally tight against the firebrick, and i=even though I don't burn it very often or hot, it still cracked the veneer from the excessive heat.



Diamond D. said:


> You better, first, check with the AHJ, if your thinking about using those galvanized, corrugated thingies. :laughing::laughing:


:laughing:


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