# Side Work



## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

mattp said:


> How do I know their hatchet men because in the past 2 months alone I have fixed 3 roofs less than 2 years old because so and so had the hackman on the roof. Yes it brings me work but man I would just like to get the job from the start.


There definately are some hatchet men out there. As in any profession. My point was that many are not. 

As far as those h/o with the bad roofs. If they didn't check references and got someone to do it for next to nothing then they got what they deserved. Always check references and if it sounds to good to be true. it probably is.



> Originally Posted by *maj*
> R&S........ I like you more & more every post. :thumbup: Seems joasis & I have another clone out there in PA.


:thumbsup: 

Maj When is the next meeting of "Hack" club. :thumbup:


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

realpurty2 said:


> OoOoh Nooooo! Someone pass me a bullet.. :2guns: I'm just now learning how to live with the two of them... three is overload. :tt2:


Take your pick

   :laughing: 

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...ev=/images?q=m60+tank&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&sa=G 

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...ev=/images?q=m60+tank&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&sa=G


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

R&S Exteriors said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Maj When is the next meeting of "Hack" club. :thumbup:



I don't know "when" but I know "where".

I think we'll have it in your hometown of _Milf_finburg. :w00t:
Sounds like a "fun" town.


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

maj said:


> I don't know "when" but I know "where".
> 
> I think we'll have it in your hometown of _Milf_finburg. :w00t:
> Sounds like a "fun" town.


It's a very beautiful area and town. Although as the years go by the winters are not as appealing as they use to be


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

maj said:


> I don't know "when" but I know "where".
> 
> I think we'll have it in your hometown of _*Milf*_finburg. :w00t:
> Sounds like a "fun" town.


:whistling


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## Colormatch (Aug 20, 2006)

realpurty2 said:


> I could throw out a few examples md... but here is a recent one from that now defunct company we considered buying into.
> 
> The contractor was hired to do a basement remodel. The tub above it was leaking (very small leak that took time to be evident, just a drip here and there) somewhere in the ceiling causing drips into the basement area. The employee took side work to repair the leak. His method of fixing it was to mud over the stains on the ceiling and repaint it... doing nothing for the leak. He told the GC that he had done a full repair and all water was stopped. It looked good and as a finished product, no one could tell he hadn't cut into the ceiling, fixed the leaking pipe as claimed, then patched and repainted the ceiling. He got paid, the GC finished his basement remodel and got paid. Two months later, long after the employee had quit and moved out of state, the GC got an irate phone call and had to go repair the leak and replace the ceiling at his expense because the H.O. claimed it was done under the GC and was one of his employees. The "well, he worked for you so I assumed he was compent" speech..
> 
> ...


The only way your going to cure that is to keep your employees shirts and vans at your shop everyday and night. When they come to work, you give them your lettered van and their clothing to wear for the day.

I don't agree with this, but you'll never have to worry about your name being ruined by someone that see's your van out front of a customers home. I see side work as being fine, except for one of my customers. If an employee find's his own customer and want's to do the work on a weekend or after hours, let them go, but if this interfears with my business in anyway, either it stops or they will be looking for a new job.


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

I have been caught before like that. A few years ago, I was doing 200 builders decks. We'd been on site off and on for a year. Never had a problem. One day near the end of the project, I got a call from a customer. Their $7000 addition to the standard builder's deck that I had designed for them 2 months earlier (and quoted $10,000) was sinking. Odd, because I hadn't done the addition. turns out the carpenter on site did it himself, but didn't "fully" clarify to the customer that he was doing it privately. Of course, the customer thought that I had just authorized the worker to give him a $3000 discount!! Although I had nothing to do with it (the worker bought his own material, and was paid in cash), my lawyer advised me I was on the hook for warranty work!!

Since then, I have a policy. A worker is on a site because I paid for the marketing to get him there. I invested the time and effort to design the project and sell it. I paid for the material. I am paying his labour. I am covering insurance, workers comp, and administration. In short, any extra work on that site is mine. If a passer by approached the worker, that is my lead regardless of size. 
Those of my workers who respect me, understand this, and will tell me. (Those of my workers who don't respect me usually don't last ver well, because I treat my men, and 2 women, very well). Generally, if it is a small job ( a gate for the neighbour, or fix a door), I tell them to make their own deal. If it is a larger job, I'll take it, but I make sure that the worker gets a bonus, and I usually give him the job.
If I catch them doing anything that I would want, they are gone.
Happened this spring. A crew snatched a group fence job out from under my nose, and then abandoned my job (they left $4000 on the table) to do the new one. They have not seen a dollar from me since.

I pretty much have a zero tolerance policy.

If, on the other hand, they are driving down the road and someone waves them over and asks about a job, it's legitimately their lead (most of my men drive their own trucks), and more power to them.

Just my $0.02


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Discussions like this tend to diverge into two themes. One the one hand, there are folks that will argue as to the injustice the employee is being done by their employer. On the other hand, there are folks that argue that the corporate person of the business must be protected from liability.

I can see both sides of this issue and agree with the arguments of both, but, because of the society we live in, with the set of laws we must operate under, and with the expense of high limit insurance, I can't see not taking the conservative approach and having a policy against moonlighting.

I understand the points that Maj, Joasis and R&S are making, and for them and their businesses, this must seem a ridiculous approach. After all, what they have been doing has worked for them. But, all it takes is one incident to put a business into bankruptcy and that makes me wary of following these trailblazers in their quest for worker parity and liberty.

I pay attorneys to advise me to keep me out of that situation as best they can.

Now, if someone would come up with an insurance policy that would protect the company from its employees, then I'd be happy to read it over and make a sound business decision based on the numbers and the risk. That is what I get paid for. Not to defend the rights of my employees to jeopardize my business for their own personal gain and without my permission, knowledge, or benefit. That would be dumb.

If they want that liberty, fine, I have no problem with that, but they should not seek that liberty while exposing my company to unnecessary risk.

So, to the folks that argue on the side of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, I'll say only this; As a private citizen I agree with you 100%. As a corporate citizen living in the litigious society, with the precedent of employer liability, I couldn't disagree with you more.


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

Colormatch said:


> but if this interfears with my business in anyway, either it stops or they will be looking for a new job.


That's basically the same as what I was saying... I just choose to take a more proactive choice rather than wait until it interferes to take action. There is no right or wrong, it is whatever works best for your business. :thumbsup:


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Stone Mountain said:


> I have been caught before like that. A few years ago, I was doing 200 builders decks. We'd been on site off and on for a year. Never had a problem. One day near the end of the project, I got a call from a customer. Their $7000 addition to the standard builder's deck that I had designed for them 2 months earlier (and quoted $10,000) was sinking. Odd, because I hadn't done the addition. turns out the carpenter on site did it himself, but didn't "fully" clarify to the customer that he was doing it privately. Of course, the customer thought that I had just authorized the worker to give him a $3000 discount!! Although I had nothing to do with it (the worker bought his own material, and was paid in cash), my lawyer advised me I was on the hook for warranty work!!
> 
> Since then, I have a policy. A worker is on a site because I paid for the marketing to get him there. I invested the time and effort to design the project and sell it. I paid for the material. I am paying his labour. I am covering insurance, workers comp, and administration. In short, any extra work on that site is mine. If a passer by approached the worker, that is my lead regardless of size.
> Those of my workers who respect me, understand this, and will tell me. (Those of my workers who don't respect me usually don't last ver well, because I treat my men, and 2 women, very well). Generally, if it is a small job ( a gate for the neighbour, or fix a door), I tell them to make their own deal. If it is a larger job, I'll take it, but I make sure that the worker gets a bonus, and I usually give him the job.
> ...


I agree with that 100%. But that is totally different than what joasis states here.....



> A side job to me is defined as hanging a door, doing a tiling job of a few hours, repairing a shutter on a house, etc, etc...stuff that I do not send a crew and truck out to do, and work that if my guys choose to do, they can make a few extra bucks doing. Side jobs are not building homes, roofing a house, siding, building barns, or remodels.



This topic has been run through the mill before here, and seems it hasn't changed, only the names of the respondents. "Side job" seems to mean different things to different people. And that's OK.I agree with everyone here about having their businesses covered with policies pertaining to this topic, but again, some areas of the country still have 99% honest people living in them. Yeah I know, it's the 1% you need to worry about, but with the small markets myself, joasis, & R&S have, we pretty much can tell who to trust & who not to trust. Hopefully we can trust not only our employees, but the homeowner also to let us know of any sidework being inquired about.


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## R&S Exteriors (Aug 4, 2006)

Stone Mountain said:


> I have been caught before like that. A few years ago, I was doing 200 builders decks. We'd been on site off and on for a year. Never had a problem. One day near the end of the project, I got a call from a customer. Their $7000 addition to the standard builder's deck that I had designed for them 2 months earlier (and quoted $10,000) was sinking. Odd, because I hadn't done the addition. turns out the carpenter on site did it himself, but didn't "fully" clarify to the customer that he was doing it privately. Of course, the customer thought that I had just authorized the worker to give him a $3000 discount!! Although I had nothing to do with it (the worker bought his own material, and was paid in cash), my lawyer advised me I was on the hook for warranty work!!


I don't think there is any disagreement on a situation like this. All these examples are of employee's "Mis-Representing" themselves and getting jobs by using the name, trucks, shirts of the company they work for.

Those type of employee's should be fired and in a situation like above maybe even sued. 

I do not condone anyone undercutting an employers estimate to a potential customer or even doing work for a customer that his employer currently has under contract. And as stated before I personally (even as a sub) would even refer any leads from current customer family members.

*But*

If an employee comes up with his *OWN* leads and customers and does not represent himself as an employee of his employer then it is none of the employers business who else he works for or what (legal) jobs he does on the side.

*For the Record* I define a side-job (for employee's) as anything legal that was obtained without undercutting their employers customer contract or estimate and without mis-represeting who is actually responsible for the warranty and outcome. Wether it be changing a light bult, building a garage, siding a house or flipping burgers at McDonalds

We also must differentiate between *employees* and *Subcontractors*. This subject originally started (*Sub by the nads*) about not ALLOWING your subs restricted subs from working for any current customer, their friends, aquaintences, neighbors, passerbys, etc within a 75 mile radius.

Trying to restrict a sub from obtaining future work from any source, other than a contractors current contracts, is (IMO) not only wrong, but illegal and essentialy makes those subs your employee's because your trying to restrict them from conducting a business.


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## wmallock (Jan 16, 2009)

*I agree completely*



mdshunk said:


> It is, indeed. The GC in your case was just gutless. Besides, the employee in your example was doing work for one of the GC's customers, which is almost never permitted by any employer. Show me an example of an employee doing work for a customer of his own harvesting, and having that come back on the GC. It just ain't happening, and making rules against such is flatly illegal. I'm telling ya.


There is no way the gc should be held liable for the employees dishonesty i all my employees to take work on the side and I make it known I am not liable and if argued would have sac enough to stand up to said customer


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## BMAN (Aug 21, 2006)

Nuwbie


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

F*&K IT! Let's do another Wizard of Oz Freak Show!!:clap::laughing::thumbup::w00t:


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

maj said:


> How would swapping out a garage door on the west side of the house have any effect on the kitchen remodel which is on the east side of the house? There is absolutely no way you could be held responsible for warranty or any other problems arising from someone else doing work totally seperate from the work you are doing.
> 
> Yes, there would be instances where what you describe could happen.



First off, I want people to think they are part of the company, like they want it to grow. And yeah they get a commision off the sales. If its on the same project? Because I spent 11k on the advertising that put him there? That its my client and I am currently employed by the work that goes on. He may have the capability to do the project without me selling it, but I sure as hell have the capability of doing his job without him as well. So if he wants to quit for the day when I feel like taking his job thats fine. 

If its on another site nothing to do with me with none of my stuff its different.


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

**** I was decieved, it was in the recent posts!


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## AMA D-MAX (May 5, 2008)

No matter what, if your employee did some work on the side, and something goes wrong, the HO will call the state and you are definetly responsible for the work he did because it was your van and tools, and first of all your employee.
I've seen it happen here in texas. one of my buddy contractors was fined $ 5,000.00, one of his employees was wiring this house on the side without him knowing, and to make along story short my friend the contractor got the fine for not wiring the house right and the HO had pictures of one of his vans on a saturday at 6:00 PM by the front of the house, the owner just "happen to take a progress picture" of the house with the date on, my friend was not even aware of this and he got a penalty for miswiring the house. (Down sizing the wire through out the house they found this aftter the house was half way sheet rocked and the there was no RI inspection becasuse it was outside city limits, it was brought up to the HO by the sheet rocker) Can u bvelieve that??:whistling:furious:


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## Century Man (Jan 14, 2009)

Just today my Ho asks "Do your guys work off the books?" My reply, "No Maam they don't. We're a legitimate company." Stunned look, "Oh".


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## Darwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Asking to work on the side boils down to 1 thing:

H/O is trying to save $$$...WTF kind of low-down scummy sh#T is this??


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## wellbuilthome (Feb 5, 2008)

maj said:


> How would swapping out a garage door on the west side of the house have any effect on the kitchen remodel which is on the east side of the house? There is absolutely no way you could be held responsible for warranty or any other problems arising from someone else doing work totally seperate from the work you are doing.
> 
> Yes, there would be instances where what you describe could happen.


 Heres my thing , I wont let any one work on site wail i am under contract to do work on a home or building ! Not even the owner No exceptions. 
I do send my guys out to do side work for good customers , and have them pay the guys directly .


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