# Anyone shovel roofs?



## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

I do, in this slow time. 

Crazy hard work, but at $120/hr it's more than worth it.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

If you make a big pile of it on the ground, the landing is not so bad after the fall.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

It's fun to make a big pile and then "fall" off the roof into it. 

Some HOs get kind of excited when they see you do that.:shifty:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

All they hear is "wheeeeeee, plosh":laughing:

Do you get a hot chocolate as a bonus then?:laughing:

I am not climbing up on a 10/12 to shovel snow, if they want it done I would have to rent a helicopter.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Who needs to get up on the roof?








​


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

I won't climb on a 10/12 either, I'm very selective of the roofs I will do.

And 480, ever try to actually use one of those?


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

$120 bucks an hour? That's like 10 dollars a roof.:laughing:


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

loneframer said:


> $100 bucks an hour? That's like 10 dollars a roof.:laughing:


Show off!

Seriously, you gotta have the gentle touch to use that on a roof.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Yes, we do. We do bids though, not by the hour like an employee.

Is that yours Lone? If so, have any more pics or info on the plow setup? We want one for our lift, or maybe a big snow bucket.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

MJW said:


> Yes, we do. We do bids though, not by the hour like an employee.
> 
> Is that yours Lone? If so, have any more pics or info on the plow setup? We want one for our lift, or maybe a big snow bucket.


I don't do by the hour either. 

$250 min and however much else I decide once I get there depending on where I have to put the snow etc.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

MJW said:


> Yes, we do. We do bids though, not by the hour like an employee.
> 
> Is that yours Lone? If so, have any more pics or info on the plow setup? We want one for our lift, or maybe a big snow bucket.


 That belongs to a buddy of mine. He bought a surplus blade from a city auction and had a friend modify it for the JCB. Here's a few more pics.:thumbsup:


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

All I see is misery :no:

Been there, done that. Not going back.:no:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Gus Dering said:


> All I see is misery :no:
> 
> Been there, done that. Not going back.:no:


 Misery was the six years I shoveled this by hand.


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

How did I know you would have pictures for this thread lone!:laughing: You got pics for everything!:laughing:


Dave


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## bmcquin (Mar 10, 2008)

This could be you............


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

bmcquin said:


> This could be you............


 That's a lucky dude right there.:blink:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

shanekw1 said:


> ..............And 480, ever try to actually use one of those?


Yes. I make vacation money with it.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

loneframer said:


> Misery was the six years I shoveled this by hand.


Been hand-shoveling this since '86. :whistling


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i stepped thru a snow covered plastic bubble skylite once:blink:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Been hand-shoveling this since '86. :whistling


 You are much more committed than me, certifiable too.:laughing:


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

katoman said:


> In theory the roofs should hold. Reality is different. Some roofs were built prior to new code requirements. Some maybe poorly built. Some were just cottages turned into houses.
> 
> Many reasons I suppose, but every year some cave in from snow loads. It varies greatly on the amount of snow, melting, freezing cycles. Sometimes you can end up with a lot of wet snow on a roof.
> 
> That's an amazing amount of weight. I have one roof that's a 2/12 pitch. If I didn't shovel it there's a chance it would fail. I shoveled it one time last winter, mid thigh deep wet snow. I can tell you it's way more than 50lbs. per sq. ft.


Specified snow load = Cb x Ss + Sr

Cb=basic snow load roof factor (.55) for most roofs
Ss=1 in 50 year snow load in kPa, which is 0.9 for Toronto
Sr=associated 1 in 50 yer rain load in KPa, which is 0.4 for Toronto

This will give you .715 kPa for Toronto, but in no case shall that be less than 1 kPa (20psf). So roofs in Toronto and I'm sure where you are, are designed for 20 psf and a snow load factor of 1. It doesn't matter how much it rains or snows, even at 20 psf you're exceeding the ACTUAL raw number (for Toronto anyways).

And I can understand homes being built a long time ago, or converted...I'm talking in the case of your "normal" home.


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

Gus Dering said:


> By removing the snow from the roof you remove the water source. Left there the house continues to melt the snow over the heated area and it continues to hit and add to the dam at the eves.
> 
> In real dry climates any little bit of ice will evaporate if its exposed to the dry air. Ice does not have to melt.


A roof packed with snow carries the equivilant of how much water found in how many seconds of a hard rain?

Less than a minute?


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Heritage said:


> The guys I saw shovelling their roofs had simple gable or hip asphalt roofs.
> 
> As far as ice dams...if there's a problem with the house's exterior cladding, having more/less snow on the roof isn't going to change anything. There could be a ton of snow on the roof...why is there penetration into the sheathing? You can't blame the snow on the roof for that.
> 
> ...


 My mothers home was built in 1950. Affordable housing for homecoming soldiers. Not much consideration was given to ice dams in those days, nor was there 30 years ago when the second later of shingles was added.

Tar paper has a limited hold out for water. It will absorb moisture and eventually do very little in the way of resist water intrusion.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I'd wager there are a lot more pre-code buildings around than post-code. And even building to code doesn't necessarily protect against really extraordinary conditions.

Also, there is always going to be a certain percentage of people who shovel their roofs simply due to baseless paranoia.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Heritage said:


> A roof packed with snow carries the equivilant of how much water found in how many seconds of a hard rain?
> 
> Less than a minute?


I'm not sure what point you are making. Are you saying the little bit of water inside the envelope from an ice dam is not worth worrying about?


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

Gus Dering said:


> I'm not sure what point you are making. Are you saying the little bit of water inside the envelope from an ice dam is not worth worrying about?


I'm saying if your argument is "ice dams", then 2 hrs of frozen rain or rain in general in the winter months will do a hell of a lot more damming than 100 roofs packed with snow. Since your argument that the run off/melting of the snow on the roof is the issue.

Nevermind the fact that rain is wind driven whereas melting snow from the roof is just abiding by the law of gravity.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Heritage said:


> Specified snow load = Cb x Ss + Sr
> 
> Cb=basic snow load roof factor (.55) for most roofs
> Ss=1 in 50 year snow load in kPa, which is 0.9 for Toronto
> ...


Now I'm confused. Up here I believe it's a 60 lb. load rating. I have no idea what you just wrote. Can you simplyfy it?

I also agree with the ice daming issues. This leads to ice being forced up under the shingles and leaks. Trust me, I know all about it. So, I shovel the roof.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Heritage said:


> The guys I saw shovelling their roofs had simple gable or hip asphalt roofs.
> 
> As far as ice dams...if there's a problem with the house's exterior cladding, having more/less snow on the roof isn't going to change anything. There could be a ton of snow on the roof...why is there penetration into the sheathing? You can't blame the snow on the roof for that.
> 
> ...


Do you have any idea what an ice dam is, and how it creates damage?


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Heritage said:


> I'm saying if your argument is "ice dams", then 2 hrs of frozen rain or rain in general in the winter months will do a hell of a lot more damming than 100 roofs packed with snow. Since your argument that the run off/melting of the snow on the roof is the issue.
> 
> Nevermind the fact that rain is wind driven whereas melting snow from the roof is just abiding by the law of gravity.


 First off, I'm not arguing anything. I'm just chatting with the boys while I'm watching football

Ice dams are a problem over the long haul not the short term. And they defy the laws of gravity and flow uphill towards the heat using capillary action.


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

katoman said:


> Now I'm confused. Up here I believe it's a 60 lb. load rating. I have no idea what you just wrote. Can you simplyfy it?
> 
> I also agree with the ice daming issues. This leads to ice being forced up under the shingles and leaks. Trust me, I know all about it. So, I shovel the roof.


That's the formula, taken straight out of part 9 of the OBC.



480sparky said:


> Do you have any idea what an ice dam is, and how it creates damage?


Do you have any idea that snow is not the only thing that causes ice dams? Do you have any idea what snow is?

Ice forms where there is water and a temperature is freezing. Melting snow, rain, or frozen rain can all cause ice dams.
I'm done, you guys shovel the crap out of your roofs all you want. Trying to make a point and all the girls get their knickers in a knot. Have fun ladies!


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## Diamond D. (Nov 12, 2009)

loneframer said:


> My mothers home was *built in 1950. Affordable housing for homecoming soldiers.* Not much consideration was given to ice dams in those days, nor was there 30 years ago when the *second later of* *shingles was added.*


I recently built a furnace vent chase on one of these homes.

3 /12 pitch, 2 x 3 rafters and 3/8 sheathing.
If that were my house, I wouldn't let too much snow accumulate.

We also re-shingled that section of roof.
We were doing a tare off anyway to replace some rotted sheathing, but, the building inspector was there to make sure.
Absolutely, NO OVERLAYS ALLOWED, in that development.

That's gotta tell you something... Peter. 

D.


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## RacerX780 (Mar 22, 2010)

bmcquin said:


> This could be you............


One time I was at my friends house during a storm... I think we got like almost three feet of snow. His parents were out of town so it was just us kids - we were in our late teens... anyway, my friend when outside to shovel the roof of his garage. 

He was gone for longer then we all thought he should have been, and we were saying how he probably fell off. Sure enough - he comes in and says h he fell off. 

Fortunately he didn't get hurt but we all thought it was pretty funny at the time.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

I thought we were just talking.

And for the record, I ain't shoveling snow no matter where it is.:laughing:


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

"Do you have any idea what an ice dam is, and how it creates damage?"

Thanks button fail.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Heritage said:


> ..........Do you have any idea that snow is not the only thing that causes ice dams? Do you have any idea what snow is?
> 
> Ice forms where there is water and a temperature is freezing. Melting snow, rain, or frozen rain can all cause ice dams.
> I'm done, you guys shovel the crap out of your roofs all you want. Trying to make a point and all the girls get their knickers in a knot. Have fun ladies!



Snow??? WTF is snow?

I guess all that white stuff in my yard, on my sidewalk & driveway, covering my trucks and on my roof is_ cocaine_.

I don't own a snowblower.... I own a cokeblower.


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## QuarterDozen (Jan 13, 2011)

I still think the concept of an ice dam is lost on him!


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

loneframer said:


> That's a lucky dude right there.:blink:


What a PINEAPPLE, HUMP, GOON, BOZO......................


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## kcbasements (Feb 5, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> :sad: Imagine that guys on a two story, and there is a spiked iron fence around the shrubs next to the house.


Yes, that would have made for a better video. :thumbup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

loneframer said:


> Ice dams are a bigger problem that many people realize. Sometimes the water ends up behind the siding, or even the sheathing, without ever showing it's presence within the structure. I witnessed this on my mothers house last year. 10/12 with 2 layers of asphalt 3 tabs. Ice had built up behind the siding and icicles were dripping out of the weep holes of the aluminum siding and out the ends of the J around the window. I can only assume that it was not good for the Fiberboard sheathing.:thumbsup:


i've seen that too,actually ive seen it refreeze and push the siding off the house

last year this house had 6' of roofing removed from the eaves and 6' of I&W installed....leaks like a sieve


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Wow, I think some may want to step back from the puter for a couple days and come on out to the real world.

Science and numbers usually don't work with mother nature. She proves them wrong daily, so you can keep your calculations.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

jmiller said:


> It's probably just riding the drywall to a seam


 no drywall, it's unfinished space, but could very well be finding a horizontal seam in the Advantech sheathing.:thumbsup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

TimelessQuality said:


> :laughing::laughing:
> 
> 
> Sooo H, just curious.. do you live in a house? apartment?


 
yurt

but i'm looking at a forclosed shipping container:clap:


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

So when a client calls you guys and says "My roof is leaking due to ice dams".

What do you do?

"Oh well you know, that's what snow does. Totally unpredictable stuff, it never read building science ya know...there's no solution...here's a shovel"

This is getting way out of hand. You guys believe whatever you want to believe.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

geez whats up your azz?:blink:


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

loneframer said:


> no drywall, it's unfinished space, but could very well be finding a horizontal seam in the Advantech sheathing.:thumbsup:


If you know of a particular pic in your thread i might have a better idea.

edit: just tape the interior joints with the roof tape :thumbsup:


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

If they have an ice dam problem you get the snow off the roof so it doesn't turn to ice. No snow...no ice.

Then you send them an estimate to make it right and they call you back next year to shovel snow off roof.

Rinse, repeat.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

jmiller said:


> Does it have continuous soffit vent? Can we visually inspect the gap over the top plate? How did they get r30 above the top plate? Was the top joint in the drywall to ceiling juncture caulked? What brand ridge vent? Are there any other vented peaks that might short circuit the venting system?
> 
> Like MJW said, the sky's the limit on achieving perfection.


No continuous vent, but pretty well vented at the soffit and full ridge vent. The rafters bear on a sloped bearing plate, no birdsmouth, full 12" I joist rafters.The bottom of the upper flanges have 1/2" ridgid foam attached to achieve a vent space, then R-30 from building line to ridge, with solid blocking at the building line, leaving the vent space open. The ceiling below the bearing plate is insulated with unfaced R-30 as well, with a 3" concrete slab above. There are no gable vents, humidity inside the building is around 15% and temp is maintained at 65 degrees.

I know the care in which this all was installed, no short cuts.

The thawing is due to solar heat gain on the dark shingles.


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## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

I remove some snow from roofs as well as regular snow removal. The reasons for ice dams can vary. It is seldom one thing only, more like a combination of events and conditions. Dick from Minnesota is correct that you don't have to shovel the whole roof. If you get it so that the sun can hit the bottom few feet by the gutters, you are half way home.

The idea of shoveling a roof isn't purely obsessive behavior, it can keep ice dams form occurring. I get calls when people have water entering their house. Yes, I get on some roofs. Just as in roofing you pick the ones you walk on and the ones you'll work from a ladder (ladders must be secured) or even scaffold. When water is coming in the house people don't care; they want it to stop.
After people have these problems they keep an eye on their roof and if snow and ice buildup occurs I may get a call before there is a big melt.

A few causes I can think of that contribute from the outside;
lots of snow,
lots of freeze, thaw, freeze cycles that build up that dam,
possibly plugged gutters but often _even clear ones_ can load up with ice, especially on the north side of the house
IF you are running *heat tape*, make sure gutters are kept clean as the tape contributes to downspout clogging.

Yes, some of the troubles are due to internal issues with the house and construction materials or techniques.
.....but....shoveling is one thing you can easily do to fix or prevent the occurrence of ice dams. Not much roofing done in January where I live.
That roof rake might have a 24' reach and cost 34 dollars. It may be well worth the effort. 
(watch out for the electrical supply lines w/ aluminum poles, eh?)

Willy


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

hmmm... ridged foam providing the vent space huh?continuous to the ridge?


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> hmmm... ridged foam providing the vent space huh?continuous?


 yup


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

loneframer said:


> The thawing is due to solar heat gain on the dark shingles.


You lost me at "The ceiling below the bearing plate is insulated with unfaced R-30 as well, with a 3" concrete slab above" , but I'm familiar with the house in question so I can only imagine. 

My problem with the solar gain theory is that a lot of ice dams I see are on the N side, i.e. the opposite side you'd put solar panels.

E.g. this house, which was a mirror image- but only dammed on the N side, And bad enough to come out the fourth lap down on the hardie below eave: http://www.contractortalk.com/f6/tankless-water-heater-causing-ice-dam-89333/


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

loneframer said:


> yup


so how does that exaust attic air?


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

jmiller said:


> You lost me at "The ceiling below the bearing plate is insulated with unfaced R-30 as well, with a 3" concrete slab above" , but I'm familiar with the house in question so I can only imagine.
> 
> My problem with the solar gain theory is that a lot of ice dams I see are on the N side, i.e. the opposite side you'd put solar panels.
> 
> E.g. this house, which was a mirror image- but only dammed on the N side, And bad enough to come out the fourth lap down on the hardie below eave: http://www.contractortalk.com/f6/tankless-water-heater-causing-ice-dam-89333/


 This is on the East side of the building. It gets sun from early morning unti about 3 PM. Within 30 minutes of lack of sun, the dripping stops. I only noticed this on Friday, 3 days after the storm and after 2/3 of the snow was melted off the roof, from the top down.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

condensation


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> so how does that exaust attic air?


 The entire roof is insulated continuously. There is only a small area that is unfinished, that is unconditioned. Every possible cavity in this house is insulated, either with foil faced VB or unfaced at interior locations.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> so how does that exaust attic air?


Good question, but we're not worried about condensation on the underside of the foam baffles for now. If anything they'll serve as a better barrier to keeping the heat from getting to the decking, which is what's generally considered the main culprit.

Along with solar gain, which I probably just put my foot in my mouth about.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> condensation


You're smarter than you look.

Edit: I hope that didn't come :drinkut wrong, but I saw the leak you found from the back side of chimney counter (because there's a 1" gap between wood and chimney for all the heat from the attic to escape, same with velux skylights- but even felt will keep the condensating metal from leaking in the house. Doesn't always take i&w).


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> condensation


 why is it only dripping where there is snow covering the roof?


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

loneframer said:


> why is it only dripping where there is snow covering the roof?


Is the space sealed up or can you physically locate the first material the moisture shows up on? Do you know anybody with an infared FLIR camera?


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## 3bar (Jan 14, 2011)

i remember about ten years ago, it was winter, and a roofer came out to shingle a new house next door that had just gotten snowed on. one minute i look outside and see him on the roof with a shovel. about an hour later i see an ambulance out there...:sad:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

jmiller said:


> Is the space sealed up or can you physically locate the first material the moisture shows up on? Do you know anybody with an infared FLIR camera?


 No on the camera, but I can surely pull a batt of insulation and cut an inspection hole in the foam.

As I said, the humidity inside is at 15% and it's 65 degrees.

The unfinished space is about 10', from the building line to a knee wall, the width of the building. Only part of that area is snow covered and there is no sign of dripping anywhere except where there is snow and heavy icecycle formation along the fascia.


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## blu (Jun 5, 2010)

Heritage said:


> So when a client calls you guys and says "My roof is leaking due to ice dams".
> 
> What do you do?
> 
> "Oh well you know, that's what snow does. Totally unpredictable stuff, it never read building science ya know...there's no solution...here's a shovel"


Yes. Why would you fix it when you get 250 every couple months every winter? Just push it off and go buy a sack. Everyone wins.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

As a note, I'll pimp myself out and do pretty much anything related to carpentry and construction in general. Roofing is one thing I won't do, period.

I've shingled many a roof in my younger days. I won't do it now. Too much risk, too much liability and way too backbreaking to do it myself.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

blu said:


> Yes. Why would you fix it when you get 250 every couple months every winter? Just push it off and go buy a sack. Everyone wins.


Said the guy who owns Good Enuff Construction Llc.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

loneframer said:


> As a note, I'll pimp myself out and do pretty much anything related to carpentry and construction in general. Roofing is one thing I won't do, period.
> 
> I've shingled many a roof in my younger days. I won't do it now. Too much risk, too much liability and way too backbreaking to do it myself.


We'd get along great.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

loneframer said:


> No on the camera, but I can surely pull a batt of insulation and cut an inspection hole in the foam.
> 
> As I said, the humidity inside is at 15% and it's 65 degrees.
> 
> The unfinished space is about 10', from the building line to a knee wall, the width of the building. Only part of that area is snow covered and there is no sign of dripping anywhere except where there is snow and heavy icecycle formation along the fascia.


We don't have a FLIR yet either, and I'm a bit embarrassed because they're down to about $1500. From what I can tell the HO you're working for might be interested in purchasing one for shiis and giggles. If he designed the assembly I would go as far as being slightly insistent.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

jmiller said:


> We'd get along great.


 This was my last roofing job, had to be 12 years ago.:laughing:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

jmiller said:


> We don't have a FLIR yet either, and I'm a bit embarrassed because they're down to about $1500. From what I can tell the HO you're working for might be interested in purchasing one for shiis and giggles. If he designed the assembly I would go as far as being slightly insistent.


 Not my design, by any means.

If it were condensation, I can't imaging why it's only happening during the day, when the roof surface is warm, but only where there is snow cover on the roof. Curious, but I still gotta believe ice dam.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Are there any penetrations in the area?

There has to be water working it's way back up under a shingle somewhere.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Gus Dering said:


> Are there any penetrations in the area?
> 
> There has to be water working it's way back up under a shingle somewhere.


 No penetrations through the roof within 40' of the drips.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

You could get a better look after Heritage comes by to help you shovel it.:laughing:


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

My vote is for a ice dam as well. 

In big snow country it is not uncommon to Grace the entire roof for reasons like your situation. You never know how this will play out.

It will be interesting to see how your HO will react to this though.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Gus Dering said:


> My vote is for a ice dam as well.
> 
> In big snow country it is not uncommon to Grace the entire roof for reasons like your situation. You never know how this will play out.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how your HO will react to this though.


 Indeed. I'm glad I ain't the roofer.:laughing:


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

loneframer said:


> Indeed. I'm glad I ain't the roofer.:laughing:


Every roof I have ever done was going to be my last.

Me and a friend did my wife's shop 2 1/2 years ago. About 4 sq or so. I'm hoping that it is true this time:thumbsup:


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

Poor guy. The roofer always gets ....'ed. Electricians say it, but roofers live it.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Gus Dering said:


> Every roof I have ever done was going to be my last.
> 
> Me and a friend did my wife's shop 2 1/2 years ago. About 4 sq or so. I'm hoping that it is true this time:thumbsup:


 I'll be building a shed this Spring and I will be roofing it. For pleasure though, not money. If it leaks, I'll file suit against myself.:laughing:


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

loneframer said:


> I'll be building a shed this Spring and I will be roofing it. For pleasure though, not money. If it leaks, I'll file suit against myself.:laughing:


I knew you were jealous when young Nick was getting all that attention. 

Get the batteries charged up in that camera of yours :thumbup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

loneframer said:


> Not my design, by any means.
> 
> If it were condensation, I can't imaging why it's only happening during the day, when the roof surface is warm, but only where there is snow cover on the roof. Curious, but I still gotta believe ice dam.


 
dew point my friend

i have a hunch that the continuous foam baffle is where your problem is but i'll wait till Jeff finishes his investigation:detective:


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## D. Jones Const (Dec 31, 2009)

In a perfect world the snow would not be a concern if everyone would overbuild there roof like I would. Being from the great north Minnesota we just got like 23 inchs of snow a month ago and than it rained. I grace Ice & water at least six feet up the roof from the exterior wall. 

The major problem here are all the houses that are hacked together, old houses before the new codes, hand framed roofs, lack of venting, lack of insulation and hacked up gutter installs. The problem is the roof heats up in the sun runs down the roof hits the gutters or non vented attic and freezes creating an ice dam. The ice keeps building up works its way under the roofing than behind the poorly installed gutters and wrap than behind fascia and into soffit it than keeps going behind the poorly installed siding with no paper of tyvek it just keeps going... Another problem is when there is that much snow pack it covers all the roof vents creating no ventilation. 

The point is if people just ice & water the whole roof, proper flashing, proper gutter install, tyvek that extends up the wall over the top plate, proper venting and insulation, and proper snow load construction it would not be that big of a concern. Lets face it that is just not the case.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Goodness... all I said was I made good money shoveling a roof.:shutup:

I put an old lady's mind at ease and likely got a new customer out of the deal. :thumbup:



Ice dams form when melting snow, whether from heat loss or sunshine (yes, sunshine melts snow), runs down the roof(under the snow) and freezes at some point, usually at the eave/wall intersection. If left under 2 feet of snow, this ice will just grow. By removing the snow, it allows the sun/air to melt/evaporate the ice much more quickly than if the snow is left on the roof.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

shanekw1 said:


> Goodness... all I said was I made good money shoveling a roof.:shutup:


Troll.





:laughing:


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Tinstaafl said:


> Troll.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who, me?


:shifty:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> dew point my friend
> 
> i have a hunch that the continuous foam baffle is where your problem is but i'll wait till Jeff finishes his investigation:detective:


 Maybe, but why is dewpoint affected by snow cover. No other areas show issue except where water is running under the snow drift. The interior temperature and humidity fluctuate very little.

The area was bone dry this morning. Still a berm of snow along the North rake of the roof, swooping across the fascia about 12'.

I'm not sold on dewpoint. I think if that was the case, there would have been more widespread problems when the roof was completely snow covered. It was only a problem where the upper roof cleared itself first and worked its way toward the fascia, mainly in the area of a high drift and massive icecycle buildup.


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## FRAME2FINISH (Aug 31, 2010)

i have a big house i shovel every year for 500 bucks, i started after charging him 14 grand to rebuild his trusses, i hate doing it but i take my daughter and we talk while i remove the majority,i figured i need someone to call an ambulance after i get my heart attack. the house is for sale so this maybe my last winter haha its kind of like being paroled imo

and i do an old buddy of mine but i do it in 20 minutes, which is bad because then the neighbors expect the same lol


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

So what's day-time high's been lately? 

Ice is on the facia on the north?

edit oops- I shoveled a roof once, but that was so we could shingle it


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

TimelessQuality said:


> So what's day-time high's been lately?
> 
> Ice is on the facia on the north?
> 
> edit oops- I shoveled a roof once, but that was so we could shingle it


 Icecycles are on the East fascia. Daytime highs are near or slightly above freezing. On the warmest day of thawing, water was free flowing off the roof, even though it was traveling under snow. The next 2 days were cycles of slower thawing. I have no doubt that Ice damming is the problem. Just seeing the formation of ice and snow and knowing where the drips appeared.

If it were a dewpoint issue, condensation doesn't GAF if the roof is cold from snow, ice or air. Surface temp is surface temp, am I right?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> dew point my friend
> 
> i have a hunch that the continuous foam baffle is where your problem is but i'll wait till Jeff finishes his investigation:detective:


I agree with Tom, if the foam baffles are continuous. they need a gap between them or you will get condensation.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

Is a good layer of snow account for any R-value?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

knucklehead said:


> Is a good layer of snow account for any R-value?


 
while it does have insulating qualities,it would depend on whether you had a ''hot'' roof or a ''cold'' roof as to any benefit it may provide

Lone it's just a thought that with continuous eave to ridge foam baffle you have essentially created a hot roof,it has venting above the foam but its not exhausting warm moist air like it would without the foam

i know you said the Fiberglas had a vb,but no vb is 100%maybe if it was drywalled you would never have an issue...i don't know im just guessing here,your there,you say ice dam 12 ft away...i'm down wit dat:jester:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> while it does have insulating qualities,it would depend on whether you had a ''hot'' roof or a ''cold'' roof as to any benefit it may provide
> 
> Lone it's just a thought that with continuous eave to ridge foam baffle you have essentially created a hot roof,it has venting above the foam but its not exhausting warm moist air like it would without the foam
> 
> i know you said the Fiberglas had a vb,but no vb is 100%maybe if it was drywalled you would never have an issue...i don't know im just guessing here,your there,you say ice dam 12 ft away...i'm down wit dat:jester:


 I just think if it were an issue with the foam, it would be a constant problem, considering the stable interior temp and humidity.

It's isolated to a small area with snow on the roof and heavy icecycling at the fascia.


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

loneframer said:


> What about a roof that, due to drifting, has more snow along the lower several feet than it does above?
> 
> The shingles that are exposed to the sun first warm up above freezing, even though ambiant temps are not. Heavy thawing occurs higher up the roof, running down beneath the snow and freezing before it drains over the edge of the fascia. *There are 2 rows of I&W, due to a 4' overhang on a 5/12. The rafters are insulated with foil faced R-30, with 1.5" of open air flow to the ridge vent.
> *
> Any chance water could show up as far as 12' up the slope?




I keep going back to this and think that it could be an 
ice dam problem since with the two rows of I&W 
your under 3' of coverage past the exterior wall.



> no drywall, it's unfinished space, but could very well be* finding a horizontal seam* in the Advantech sheathing.:thumbsup:



But I'm still trying to wrap my head around the condensation
possibility........I'm going to work on that one if I can get my
brain reorganized after reading this whole thread.
Where's that trouble maker ,Shane?

Just guessing but who doesn't love a good mystery?


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

oldfrt said:


> I keep going back to this and think that it could be an
> ice dam problem since with the two rows of I&W
> your under 3' of coverage past the exterior wall.
> 
> ...


 As a teaser. There was no evidence of a drip today, although there is still a small amount of snow left on the roof and icecycles hanging. Temps hovering around freezing, as they were Friday.


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## sbcontracting (Apr 22, 2010)

Heritage- the only reason I shovel my own roof (Ottawa) is esp when an east wind storm comes, I get a dump of snow hanging over the west side of the house - it puts a good amount of weight on my gutters which are weak....


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

,


loneframer said:


> As a teaser. There was no evidence of a drip today, although there is still a small amount of snow left on the roof and icecycles hanging. Temps hovering around freezing, as they were Friday.



It's not like you not to have pics!
Your saying most of the snow is now gone 
off the entire roof?
Maybe the roofer had a couple low nails, nail pops,or
has a nail in a Joint?
If its directly related to there being snow on the roof
than I want to say leak.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

oldfrt said:


> ,
> 
> 
> It's not like you not to have pics!
> ...


 Pics?:no:Not on this one.

The snow was gone off of the entire West side of the roof the day after the storm, due to the prevailing wind during the storm. It was blown clean. The East side however, was tapered from nothing near the ridge, to about a foot on the SE fascia, to about 2' at the NE fascia. The roof cleared itself from the top down, as the sun got on the shingles. Water was pouring off the fascia at one point, while there was still 8+ inches of snow on the fascia line. In the afternoon, as the sun moved around, the icecycles started to form. After 2 days of similar freeze/thaws, the drips showed up. If you saw the roof, it's not hard to believe that ice could have backed up 10' under the drift.


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## blackbear (Feb 29, 2008)

I snow raked the first 2 feet of my roof and still get ice damns. (that right damn not dam). Bye bye to my new gutters. hopefully no one is under when they fall.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

loneframer said:


> Let me guess, you thought it was a snow covered ninja turtle?:blink:


OMG I don't care to waste my time reading any of this thread but this comment made me laugh harder than anything I've ever read on CT. :laughing::laughing:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I wonder what roofers did before ice and water? Installed everything correctly.

We get a lot of Ice dams. I've torn off hundreds maybe over a thousand roofs in my young time. Majority of these had no IW and no damage along the eave.

Everyone should know that you can't beat nature. Even perfect ventilation will lose to perfect weather combinations everytime.

The main goal should be to reduce it as much as possible.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Neat thread. And here's more grist for the mill.
I make my money by installing snow guards on roofs that have poor to moderate insulation, no ice and storm shield, and no felt. The purpose is to keep the snow from sliding down and piling up along the eave and contributing to ice damming, and to protect the shrubs, awnings, etc,
http://www.albertsroofing.com/SnowGuard%20Installation.htm


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

loneframer said:


> Pics?:no:Not on this one.


It's an intriguing puzzle, and deserves its own thread so the details can be laid out in a comprehensible fashion. I know it's not your responsibility to fix it, but...

Take your camera, get some pics and start a thread. Harrumph.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> OMG I don't care to waste my time reading any of this thread but this comment made me laugh harder than anything I've ever read on CT. :laughing::laughing:


 
you don't get out much?:sad:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> you don't get out much?:sad:


 You know damn well that ninja turtle quote is "circus clown" funny.:clap:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Tinstaafl said:


> It's an intriguing puzzle, and deserves its own thread so the details can be laid out in a comprehensible fashion. I know it's not your responsibility to fix it, but...
> 
> Take your camera, get some pics and start a thread. Harrumph.


 
a loneframer thread? how novel


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

tomstruble said:


> a loneframer thread? how novel


:clap::laughing::clap:

Is that a molehill I see? :w00t::laughing::laughing:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> It's an intriguing puzzle, and deserves its own thread so the details can be laid out in a comprehensible fashion. I know it's not your responsibility to fix it, but...
> 
> Take your camera, get some pics and start a thread. Harrumph.


 It may be in my best interest to let it go. I have a couple more winters to sort it out.:sad:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> a loneframer thread? how novel


 Blah, blah, blah....





 
:w00t:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

now that was funny:thumbup::notworthy


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

have to admit ninja turtle was funny...this thread got me so interested in this i went out yesterday and pulled the snow off my roof


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

hey Lone check out figure 8 in this building science thing

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-044-pressure-is-on/


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

tomstruble said:


> dew point my friend
> 
> i have a hunch that the continuous foam baffle is where your problem is but i'll wait till Jeff finishes his investigation:detective:


Ha! Hard to tell without being there. 

I went back to the description and noticed "No continuous vent, but pretty well vented at the soffit and full ridge vent." 

RV manufacturers caution that you need _at least_ as much intake at the eaves as exhaust. ShingleVentii might pull enough air to suck conditioned air up to the baffle where it condensates. If one wasn't particularly tight fitting it would explain an overall condensation problem that only leaks in one area. Just a thought.

Maybe you could/should take your hammer, if you do have a hammer along with all those paslodes LF, and make the baffles look like swiss cheese.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

No Tom I guess I don't get out much....apparently I'm the only one in my house that found it funny.:shutup:


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