# Kohler issue number 2. Toilet rough in.



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Ok so this is a odd one. When ever I set a toilet I check the company's rough measurements 99% of the time they are 12" but they leave enough room with the design of the pan so that the baseboards can install behind. Well kohler design there's different that others. That say their toilets are 12" rough in but are really 10" so that when set at 12" they give you 2" to get baseboards behind the toilet. Well I thought this was great because I can sneak the baseboards behind the toilets when I need to. One big problem though. The whole pan and cistern is spaced for the 2" so the cistern is also 2" of the wall. What kind of idiots design a expensive toilet to have a design like this. What on earth are you meant to do with the 2" gap behind the cistern? It looks like crap. 

This how they normally end up when I install other brands. But this kohler is gonna look stupid with a 2" gap behind the lid!!


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I dunno doesn't look terrible...


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

The Cadet 3 is even worse, as I recall.

Tell the client they are designed that way to make it easier to clean. Easier to paint behind it, too.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

That's American standard in the pic. It's touching the wall. Im cutting the floors and drains out now so I can move it back enough to close the 2" gap. I guess the people at kohler who design this stuff have zero experience in the plumbing industry and how stuff is installed.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> That's American standard in the pic. It's touching the wall. Im cutting the floors and drains out now so I can move it back enough to close the 2" gap. I guess the people at kohler who design this stuff have zero experience in the plumbing industry and how stuff is installed.


LOL looked like a tight 2 inches.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> LOL looked like a tight 2 inches.


That's AS, not the Kolher he's having issues with.


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## fourcornerhome (Feb 19, 2008)

You either ordered or received the wrong toilet.. 12" setback is standard but you can get 10" or 14" too.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I thought they put the wrong toilet in the box but its def the right toilet.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> That's American standard in the pic. It's touching the wall. Im cutting the floors and drains out now so I can move it back enough to close the 2" gap. I guess the people at kohler who design this stuff have zero experience in the plumbing industry and how stuff is installed.



So instead of getting a different toilet you're making it a 10" rough? Now you are limiting their future choices for toilets. The choices of 10 and 14 rough in toilets are getting smaller and smaller every day. 

Just the get the correct toilet. Look at the PDF specs, it shows all distances from bowl to wall and tank to wall.

Some toilets the tanks are what determines the distance some the bowl.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> I thought they put the wrong toilet in the box but its def the right toilet.


If the 12"is 2" off the wall order the 14"


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

They don't do a 14" rough in in the style they want. It won't limit the next person choice on toilet as I checked 6 other kohler toilets in lowes and they were all designed the same way. I'm also not worried what happens when they remodel the bathroom again. That's something they can worry about in 15-20 years when it gets torn out. If they want to use a true 12" rough in they can move the flange back to its original spot.


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## mski (Apr 4, 2013)

The 2" space is so you can get the paint roller between the tank and the wall.
Pure genius if you ask me! :laughing:


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## steex (Feb 19, 2013)

Well apparently it prevents condensation from creating a mold issue and potential health hazard, ma'am. It's going to be mandated in all new toilet installations to comply with the tenets of the Affordable Care Act. No ma'am, I don't believe that Obama has any business in your bathroom either, but my hands are tied. Thank you for being so understanding.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

....:blink: What am I missing?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Big Shoe said:


> ....:blink: What am I missing?


Nothing if you install toilets 2" of walls lol


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

I just realize this morning that my toilet in my bathroom (that I remodeled) is 2" away from the wall. It's been like that for 4 years and I've never noticed.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

slowsol said:


> I just realize this morning that my toilet in my bathroom (that I remodeled) is 2" away from the wall. It's been like that for 4 years and I've never noticed.


I don't think I've ever seen a toilet that's was closer than one inch to the wall. Looks nice close though.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BC I think you are fvcked in the head, my toilet is 1-3/4" from the wall (I just measured it because apparently I have no life)...how else would you clean behind it (well I don't actually clean behind it)...


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Well there a few reasons they are better against the wall. One reason is its because they are meant to be against the wall for cosmetics and for function. the pan its self is not designed to support the load of the cistern when bigger people use the toilets. Some toilets even have holes through the rear of the cistern to secure them to blocking or studs. 

You also don't need to clean behind them when installed correctly. No dirt can get behind them if they are tight to the wall. 


Here's an example of how they are normally secured. If they don't have the holes I use a couple of dabs of silicone.


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## Eric K (Nov 24, 2005)

One of my bathrooms at home. Kohler toilet. Standard 12" RI. Are you getting high at work or is all that green kool aid precision getting to you?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Well there a few reasons they are better against the wall. One reason is its because they are meant to be against the wall for cosmetics and for function. the pan its self is not designed to support the load of the cistern when bigger people use the toilets. Some toilets even have holes through the rear of the cistern to secure them to blocking or studs.
> 
> You also don't need to clean behind them when installed correctly. No dirt can get behind them if they are tight to the wall.
> 
> ...


Mine is a one piece does that make a difference?


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

BCConstruction said:


> You also don't need to clean behind them when installed correctly. No dirt can get behind them if they are tight to the wall
> View attachment 101750


Dirt can get EVERYWHERE man! Especially in a rental!! We always try to get our toilets tight against the wall. I've seen what they look like afterwards. Hair, dust, cleaning products, all built up behind that tank because you can't clean behind it. But they do "look better" like that.

Besides, who puts all their weight against the toilet tank when they're on the crapper?? It's not an easy chair you know!


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

Barri, I’m a bit lost here. I’ve been remodeling bathrooms for 25 years now and, with the exception of a wall mounted unit, they have all been 1” – 2” off the wall :blink:


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## Eric K (Nov 24, 2005)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> Barri, I&#146;m a bit lost here. I&#146;ve been remodeling bathrooms for 25 years now and, with the exception of a wall mounted unit, they have all been 1&#148; &#150; 2&#148; off the wall :blink:


I'm completely lost here. Maybe its a regional thing? Any time I see a toilet that close I think to myself that plumber almost F'd himself there. And in that pic he posted there's only 1/2" for the lid to sit on. I don't really like that idea.


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## Dave in Pa (Oct 10, 2009)

Myself, never really looked/measured the distance before!! Mine in my house is about 10' away, with a shelf above it, that's the way it was when I bought the place 29 years ago. AND works just fine daily! For cleaning and painting, a few inches does help out now and then! NOW, if you need to bolt a tank on the wall, you got a few issues in my opinion, not enough support in the floor/bolts to secure it properly, just a over-load off weight / then you need to look at other option / doctor or diet, or you need to do matters in a different location, more appropriate for what is needed at the time in need! LOL


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

We need some input from plumbers here...I use toilets often but rarely install them.


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

I've done a few bathrooms in my time...I'd guess that most toilets i've seen, probably have about a 1'' gap from wall. some more, some less...


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I've seen them too tight to the wall, and I've seen then a couple inches out. With a 2 piece, a large person or ill person can (and has) snapped the tank. Drunk people can snap them no matter what you do - maybe PL it to the wall:whistling

Set it how you want it, and then block behind it if breaking the tank is a concern. I don't like hard to the wall installs because 12" isn't 12", it's whatever the toilet manufacturer made it, and however the plumber drilled it / wall location at the top of the toilet (A lot of walls don't look the way they do in CAD drawings). I had a 12" Kohler that wouldn't go into an existing 12" rough in by about 1/4" - the prior toilet fit fine. Had to go with a 10".


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

I would think tight would cause mold issues when the tank sweats and is in contact with the sheetrock. The airspace allows drying and prevents the direct transfer of moisture.

I do think 2" is a little excessive... more like 1/2" to 1" would be ideal imo.


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## Live_oak (Jul 22, 2013)

The increased versatility of the "freestanding" tanked toilet is why now almost all of the manufacturers have constructed them this way. The "added" room behind the tank allows for a variety of decorative choices that the old style of tank tight to the wall didn't. You can actually fit a mini roller back there to point the wall. You can clad it in a thick handmade subway tile. You can do a thick wood wainscotting. You can even get wallpaper back there now. In modern minimalist home decor, toilets are coming away from being shoved in a corner or hidden in a closet. Look at the Kohler Hatbox toilet, which was the darling of upper end designers until the Kohler Numi came along.

Hatbox









Numi










The space behind the tank is an intentional design, not a "mistake".


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Some strange ideas here of why people think there should be a 2" gap behind the cistern. I have never in 15years of plumbing had one spaced that far off the wall. Reasons like its there to paint behind or so it can be cleaned behind are just silly. The US is the only place I ever seen them designed like this. I'm used to concealed cistern wall hung units, close coupled, low level and high level cistern all of which have zero gap and never seen an issue. 

Of course free standing pans are a whole different matter. They are designed to be off the wall.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Live_oak said:


> The increased versatility of the "freestanding" tanked toilet is why now almost all of the manufacturers have constructed them this way. The "added" room behind the tank allows for a variety of decorative choices that the old style of tank tight to the wall didn't. You can actually fit a mini roller back there to point the wall. You can clad it in a thick handmade subway tile. You can do a thick wood wainscotting. You can even get wallpaper back there now. In modern minimalist home decor, toilets are coming away from being shoved in a corner or hidden in a closet. Look at the Kohler Hatbox toilet, which was the darling of upper end designers until the Kohler Numi came along.
> 
> Hatbox
> 
> ...


There ya go barri... Festoilets


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Some strange ideas here of why people think there should be a 2" gap behind the cistern. I have never in 15years of plumbing had one spaced that far off the wall. Reasons like its there to paint behind or so it can be cleaned behind are just silly. The US is the only place I ever seen them designed like this. I'm used to concealed cistern wall hung units, close coupled, low level and high level cistern all of which have zero gap and never seen an issue.
> 
> Of course free standing pans are a whole different matter. They are designed to be off the wall.


15 years? You look about 25 years old!


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Lol I wish. I'm 35


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I used to be concerned about that spacing. But now, if a 12" rough-in toilet leaves too much space for a proper 12" flange, that's just the way it's going to be. Sell it, or blame the manufacturer.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> ...The US is the only place I ever seen them designed like this....


Your English accent has been throwing us off. What you've been trying to say is that having learned the wrong way to do it elsewhere, you've been having a hard time learning the correct (i.e. American/Canadian) way. You're welcome.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Your English accent has been throwing us off. What you've been trying to say is that having learned the wrong way to do it elsewhere, you've been having a hard time learning the correct (i.e. American) way. You're welcome.


Yep every other country must have it wrong. Better start putting 2" blocking on wall hung concealed cistern toilets as well so we can paint behind them lol


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

My plumber supplier does sell these though to stop the cistern or pan neck cracking lol


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

I have never installed a toilet with a wall hung tank (cistern as you call it). I don't think I've even seen one with holes for wall mounting, except for some ancient ones.

The toilets we install have tanks mounted to the bowl.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

tyb525 said:


> I have never installed a toilet with a wall hung tank (cistern as you call it). I don't think I've even seen one with holes for wall mounting, except for some ancient ones.
> 
> The toilets we install have tanks mounted to the bowl.


The toilets with tanks mounted to the pan are called close coupled toilets. I have prob installed close to 150 since starting plumbing. Low level cisterns are the type where the cistern is mounted about 6-10" above the pan. Not really seen anymore and high level cisterns 4-5ft above pan are still sold and installed. I have put a lot of these in also and they have to be mounted to the wall with screws or brackets.

There's just no logical reason for a cistern not to be on the wall. Most of my works higher end stuff so customers ain't impressed with 2" gaps cosmetically and I don't blame them as it looks cheap and tacky.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Perhaps kohler's standard is now 12" from framing... with allowance for sheetrock, backer, tile, etc...

If your having an 'issue' with Kohler, why don't you contact the company and clarify their standards?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TimelessQuality said:


> Perhaps kohler's standard is now 12" from framing... with allowance for sheetrock, backer, tile, etc...
> 
> If your having an 'issue' with Kohler, why don't you contact the company and clarify their standards?


I doubt it. RO sizes have always been to finished wall thickness no matter if its a toilet, shower valve, wall faucet, electrical box, lights etc etc they wouldn't ever say from framing as they have no idea what's going on the wall. It could be 2" wedi board and 1" thick tile for all they know or 3/8 drywall. 

Kohler don't really supply instructions anymore. They have a few small diagrams on the box which your meant to cut out and use but no detail in them at all. 

Here's another one I have to put in today or tomorrow. Back is flush on this one and it has the same spacing issue. I may have to let the customers know they won't be getting a clean custom look if they want to use these toilets in old work.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Well I got an answer from them. It seems that the lower end of their range are design this way to take into account different possible scenarios like RO being out, thicker wall coverings being in place etc etc but the higher end kit they can be attached to the wall but you have to make sure you have the exact RO distance the toilet requires. its seems they make them idiot proof in the Lower ranges but they said there's zero issue moving the RO to mount the cheaper ones on the wall. Not that $320 was a cheap toilet but at least there's the option through them to get the better looking wall hugging designs for a little more money if the flange is dead on a true 12" to final wall depth.


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## RichVT (Feb 28, 2009)

Sometimes, if you can't push the tank lid all the back (because the tank is too close to the wall) the bowl lid and seat won't stay up reliably.

- Rich


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

That's more the case of cistern not level than lid too far forward. If I wanted to move the lid back on the one in front of me as an example the lid moves less than 1/4" forwards to backwards. But the cistern can tilt forded red about 2-3" if I don't crank the rear bolts down on the cistern. Sometimes there's not a rear bolt so you hope the cistern lid can move back enough to let you use that type of lid. I have always put mine in in walls and never had a situation where the lid would stay up but I have seen this happen on some other people's toilets that were not mounted to the wall. Normally its just a badly designed seat.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I think that this is way to much thinking regarding the crapper. It's the last thing on my mind when remodeling a bathroom.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Every toilet has a spec PDF with all dimensions
This one is from Toto Promanade
3/4" between tank and wall and 3/4" between bowl and wall, will not work with base and shoe
http://www.totousa.com/Portals/0/ProductDownloads/SS-00238_CST424SF_G.pdf


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> its seems they make them idiot proof in the Lower ranges


Apparently not... :whistling


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Apparently not... :whistling


Well apparently yes because I couldn't get it to work must mean I'm not an idiot lol


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Well apparently yes because I couldn't get it to work must mean I'm not an idiot lol


When you move the flange to 10 1/2" make sure to leave your name and address printed on it so the next plumber can find you and beat you over the head with a pipe.

Leave the pluming work to the plumbers, they know what they are doing


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

rrk said:


> When you move the flange to 10 1/2" make sure to leave your name and address printed on it so the next plumber can find you and beat you over the head with a pipe.
> 
> Leave the pluming work to the plumbers, they know what they are doing


I am a plumber. Have been for 15 years. It was my main trade just so your aware. plus if you would have read the other posts you would have seen that almost any 12" rough in toilet will fit a 10-12" rough in. Perhaps once you know as much about plumbing as I do come back and flex your pecks some more lol


Also just to educate you some more they do make 10" rough in toilets just in case they can't use one of the 12" Rough opening 20+ available of the shelf units that fit a 10" RO.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

13 to center on rough. 

3" left of center-3.5 off wall for water through floor. 

Water through wall I use 2x6 backer. 

I


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> I am a plumber.


That is funny


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

rrk said:


> That is funny


Haters be hating lol


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## Cutonce (Oct 1, 2010)

rrk said:


> That is funny


yes but at least he can spell his trade. 




rrk said:


> Leave the pluming work to the plumbers, they know what they are doing


:laughing: sorry was too easy a jab.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Well I got an answer from them. It seems that the lower end of their range are design this way to take into account different possible scenarios like RO being out, thicker wall coverings being in place etc etc but the higher end kit they can be attached to the wall but you have to make sure you have the exact RO distance the toilet requires. its seems they make them idiot proof in the Lower ranges but they said there's zero issue moving the RO to mount the cheaper ones on the wall. Not that $320 was a cheap toilet but at least there's the option through them to get the better looking wall hugging designs for a little more money if the flange is dead on a true 12" to final wall depth.


For 320 bucks, I can get 3 toilets and a lunch to use them with. My rear ain't that fancy.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Forgot that damn b, oh well.
I guess thats why I'm not a plumBer. I can spell GC though  

Vinyl- We did a bath for an ex-CEO of a major pharmaceutical co. , used a Toto Neorest. Almost $5k for the toilet, the seat opens automatically. Still did the same thing as a cheap $150 toilet.


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## Cutonce (Oct 1, 2010)

I'm really surprised at how many people have thought having the tank away from the wall was normal. Here is one I installed the other day here in Australia where its also normal to have the tank against the wall and to fix it to the wall.










And while Im here, when I was doing this bathroom I went to the plumbers supply house and asked for a toilet flange. Everyone stood around scratching their heads and wondered what the heck I was talking about. Turns out they use a toilet connector that looks like this.


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

Our toilets generally aren't like yours :no: not wall mounted

Ps that slab vanity is nice.


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## Cutonce (Oct 1, 2010)

tyb525 said:


> Our toilets generally aren't like yours :no: not wall mounted
> 
> Ps that slab vanity is nice.


well that's a antique look toilet, not the usual which are still wall mounted.

Thanks, I got the slab from a local lumber salvager. He ran it through his surface planner and I finished it. Its called Black Wattle and is actually more of a scrub tree here.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

rex said:


> 13 to center on rough.


My earlier post I said 12''. I will eat crow. We tried to keep it between 12 min and 13 max depending on how all the other pipes worked with the layout. It was routine to start layout from the bathrooms out. The plumbers pipe layout trumped all others unless they really screwed up bad. 

I could never figure out why the plumbers never backcharged us when we put a screw in a pipe either. :whistling


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Cutonce said:


> I'm really surprised at how many people have thought having the tank away from the wall was normal. Here is one I installed the other day here in Australia where its also normal to have the tank against the wall and to fix it to the wall.
> 
> And while Im here, when I was doing this bathroom I went to the plumbers supply house and asked for a toilet flange. Everyone stood around scratching their heads and wondered what the heck I was talking about. Turns out they use a toilet connector that looks like this.


The Aussie toilets are a mixture of UK and the US design. The UK version empty through the rear into the wall and use the same rubber gasket toilet connector you have there.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Cutonce said:


> I'm really surprised at how many people have thought having the tank away from the wall was normal.


It is normal. Normal is what is done the majority of the time. Here, the normal method is having the toilet 1-2" away from the wall.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

That vanity top is nice. For a scrub tree it must get pretty big for a slab of that size.

Now that some toilets only use 1 gallon of water a tank of that size is not needed anymore. More toilets will be like the Hatbox style, especially now that American Standard in now owned by a Japanese company.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It is normal. Normal is what is done the majority of the time. Here, the normal method is having the toilet 1-2" away from the wall.


Normal for here yes. but not normal for the rest of the world. As I said before the excuse of being able to paint behind is a poor excuse. Cosmetically and functionally they are better against the wall. Less protrusion into the room, better cistern stability and a much cleaner look. 

I have not had one customer yet say they would prefer a gap behind the cistern.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Normal for here yes. but not normal for the rest of the world. As I said before the excuse of being able to paint behind is a poor excuse. Cosmetically and functionally they are better against the wall. Less protrusion into the room, better cistern stability and a much cleaner look.
> 
> I have not had one customer yet say they would prefer a gap behind the cistern.


Don't people sh!t in a hole in the ground in most other parts of the world?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Don't people sh!t in a hole in the ground in most other parts of the world?


I'm sure they do but we ain't talking about how far them holes should from the nearest wall or tree lol


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## Live_oak (Jul 22, 2013)

If you ever had a customer throw a complete throw down hissy fit over not being able to do her 3/4" tongue and groove wainscoting over her bathroom walls because there wasn't enough room behind the toilet for it's thickness, then you'd appreciate that clearance a heck of a lot better! 

Only the wall covering thickness at the time of the new construction can be accurately known. Many people like to change that material when remodeling. Without a toilet able to handle that diva's solid wood wainscoting or hand fired perfect shade of peridot subway tile with the crackle glaze, you get a lot fewer decor choices, or a lot more money for demolition of that concrete slab by the plumber to move the waste pipe to accommodate those decor choices. 

Wait....you're a plumber? That explain$ your preference, doesn't it? :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Normal for here yes. but not normal for the rest of the world. As I said before the excuse of being able to paint behind is a poor excuse. Cosmetically and functionally they are better against the wall. Less protrusion into the room, better cistern stability and a much cleaner look.
> 
> I have not had one customer yet say they would prefer a gap behind the cistern.


Why should I care what the rest of the world does? There is no epidemic of broken tanks in America. In the 10+ years of doing this, I have never heard of this happening. In my 38 years of life, I have never heard of this happening. 

I have not had one customer say anything about the gap. So where does that leave us? You thinking that your way is the only right way and the rest of us don't care. It's really a silly point. It doesn't matter one way or the other.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Live_oak said:


> If you ever had a customer throw a complete throw down hissy fit over not being able to do her 3/4" tongue and groove wainscoting over her bathroom walls because there wasn't enough room behind the toilet for it's thickness, then you'd appreciate that clearance a heck of a lot better!
> 
> Only the wall covering thickness at the time of the new construction can be accurately known. Many people like to change that material when remodeling. Without a toilet able to handle that diva's solid wood wainscoting or hand fired perfect shade of peridot subway tile with the crackle glaze, you get a lot fewer decor choices, or a lot more money for demolition of that concrete slab by the plumber to move the waste pipe to accommodate those decor choices.
> 
> Wait....you're a plumber? That explain$ your preference, doesn't it? :laughing:


Well if I was in that situation which I have been numerous times I would use a toilet that would give me the clearance I need. This is why these measurements should be accurate and not +/- 2" . What's crazy is 5 different 12" rough in toilets can be as much as 3" different in center location.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Why should I care what the rest of the world does? There is no epidemic of broken tanks in America. In the 10+ years of doing this, I have never heard of this happening. In my 38 years of life, I have never heard of this happening.
> 
> I have not had one customer say anything about the gap. So where does that leave us? You thinking that your way is the only right way and the rest of us don't care. It's really a silly point. It doesn't matter one way or the other.



I'm not saying you should care and I'm not saying my ways right or wrong. What I'm saying is the gap is not needed. Its not needed in the rest of the world and its not needed here. I seek perfection in everything I do and a gap no matter if its 1/2" or 4" is not needed and in my eyes looks stupid. Customers agree because ioto yet not one has asked me not to put it back to the wall. i cant count one who said "yeah leave it off the wall like that as it looks nice and i can paint behind it every weekend" lol.
Do we start leaving gaps behind basins, cabinets, bathtubs etc etc so we can paint behind them too.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Live_oak said:


> If you ever had a customer throw a complete throw down hissy fit over not being able to do her 3/4" tongue and groove wainscoting over her bathroom walls because there wasn't enough room behind the toilet for it's thickness, then you'd appreciate that clearance a heck of a lot better!
> 
> Only the wall covering thickness at the time of the new construction can be accurately known. Many people like to change that material when remodeling. Without a toilet able to handle that diva's solid wood wainscoting or hand fired perfect shade of peridot subway tile with the crackle glaze, you get a lot fewer decor choices, or a lot more money for demolition of that concrete slab by the plumber to move the waste pipe to accommodate those decor choices.
> 
> Wait....you're a plumber? That explain$ your preference, doesn't it? :laughing:


It all comes to to the fact that someone did not look at the specs of the toilet , every toilet has specs indicating dimensions. Someone never looked at them and blames the manufacturer for variances of which there are none. Especially a 2" variance.

I for one would be very glad to find a toilet that had a 2" clearance on a 12" rough so Mrs. Diva can get here marble chair rail installed just where she wants it. A few months ago I was thrilled to find a toilet that had clearance behind the bowl for baseboard heat. 

Next he will be moving faucets to 3" centers and having the cold on the left. Just think of all of the condensation trapped behind a toilet tank fastened to the wall.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> There is no epidemic of broken tanks in America. In the 10+ years of doing this, I have never heard of this happening. In my 38 years of life, I have never heard of this happening.


Actually, I know a fellow who broke two tanks before he had his gastric bypass surgery. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. :thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> I'm not saying you should care and I'm not saying my ways right or wrong. What I'm saying is the gap is not needed. Its not needed in the rest of the world and its not needed here. I seek perfection in everything I do and a gap no matter if its 1/2" or 4" is not needed and in my eyes looks stupid. Customers agree because ioto yet not one has asked me not to put it back to the wall. i cant count one who said "yeah leave it off the wall like that as it looks nice and i can paint behind it every weekend" lol.
> Do we start leaving gaps behind basins, cabinets, bathtubs etc etc so we can paint behind them too.


Sure you are. You said it looks stupid, every one in the world does it your way, and that no customer has ever asked for a gap. Sounds like you are saying your way is the right way. I have yet to hear you say a gap is okay. In fact it's the opposite. You have given every reason why it is not okay to do. Seems like you are saying that my is the wrong way.

I contend that having it tight to the wall or with a gap makes NO difference. It is of little consequence. The vast majority of toilets in this area have gaps. SO that;s the way we do it. Your reasons for having it tight are not convincing enough. Imagine for a moment that you had always seen a gap, what would you think then?

And while there is no need for the gap, there is no need for it to be mounted tight either. It's just a preference. Space has a lot to do with how and why things are done the way they are around the rest of the world.

I also never seriously said that it's for painting behind. In fact I would either like it far enough forward to allow it to be painted or close enough that it cannot be seen.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> There is no epidemic of broken tanks in America. In the 10+ years of doing this, I have never heard of this happening. In my 38 years of life, I have never heard of this happening.


Chalk up 2 definite busted ones on one possible, all from large people. One drunk, one elderly and couldn't move well. The third was drunk, but he may have kicked it - I'm not sure if that counts.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

rrk said:


> It all comes to to the fact that someone did not look at the specs of the toilet , every toilet has specs indicating dimensions. Someone never looked at them and blames the manufacturer for variances of which there are none. Especially a 2" variance.
> 
> I for one would be very glad to find a toilet that had a 2" clearance on a 12" rough so Mrs. Diva can get here marble chair rail installed just where she wants it. A few months ago I was thrilled to find a toilet that had clearance behind the bowl for baseboard heat.
> 
> Next he will be moving faucets to 3" centers and having the cold on the left. Just think of all of the condensation trapped behind a toilet tank fastened to the wall.


Seems you're wrong again. The specs are on the outside of the box. Clearly shows every important measurement but it shows none for the distance from cistern to wall and clearly you have no idea what your talking about going on about condensation behind the cistern. Never seen that happen and if the citation called for it and it was gonna happen I would use a toilet with a insulated cistern.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> Actually, I know a fellow who broke two tanks before he had his gastric bypass surgery. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. :thumbsup:


Heck.... The offset tank probably saved a whole wall from destruction.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Sure you are. You said it looks stupid, every one in the world does it your way, and that no customer has ever asked for a gap. Sounds like you are saying your way is the right way. I have yet to hear you say a gap is okay. In fact it's the opposite. You have given every reason why it is not okay to do. Seems like you are saying that my is the wrong way.
> 
> I contend that having it tight to the wall or with a gap makes NO difference. It is of little consequence. The vast majority of toilets in this area have gaps. SO that;s the way we do it. Your reasons for having it tight are not convincing enough. Imagine for a moment that you had always seen a gap, what would you think then?
> 
> ...


Perhaps you can show me where I said my way is the right way! almost certain i didnt say that. I'm not bothered who installs them 1-10" of the wall if that what they like that's their choice. But when a toilet says 12" rough in I expect it to be 12" not 14" because its an idiot proof toilet. I fully get that idiot proof toilets are needed because there's idiots about but they should have the true dimensions on them. Its stupid to have to by a higher end toilet to get a true 12" RO. 

Also my example of the rest if the world does it this way means they have zero problem with painting behind them or condensation issues.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Perhaps you can show me where I said my way is the right way! almost certain i didnt say that. I'm not bothered who installs them 1-10" of the wall if that what they like that's their choice. But when a toilet says 12" rough in I expect it to be 12" not 14" because its an idiot proof toilet. I fully get that idiot proof toilets are needed because there's idiots about but they should have the true dimensions on them. Its stupid to have to by a higher end toilet to get a true 12" RO.
> 
> Also my example of the rest if the world does it this way means they have zero problem with painting behind them or condensation issues.


Out of thanks...so +1 thanks... just give us the damn correct number... we're not here to outguess each toilet company.

(I've had this issue/problem before, and I always hard measure the damn thing out.... meaning I have to have the toilet on site during rough, unpackage it, measure it, repackage it.... move it around safely..)


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## drspec (Oct 21, 2012)

I posted this on another forum but it seems more fitting here


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## Imakenice (Jul 9, 2013)

rrk said:


> . Just think of all of the condensation trapped behind a toilet tank fastened to the wall.




This would be my concern as well. I was taking off a countertop today in a bathroom (less than 15 yrs old), and noticed that the toilet tank had a lot of condensation on it, as I had to work around it to unfasten the counter. Yes it was an insulated tank. While it may not be a problem in some cases, it will in others, especially if this was to be a standard practice.

In a cosmetic sense I think it looks a bit funny for a north american toilet to be tight to the wall like that. I'd think best reveal is about an inch off, that is what seems to be most common in my experience. 

At the end of the day i'd ask the customer, if they aren't happy another toilet could be selected. I've never had it or heard of this being an issue though.


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## Cutonce (Oct 1, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> The Aussie toilets are a mixture of UK and the US design. The UK version empty through the rear into the wall and use the same rubber gasket toilet connector you have there.


Aus has its own standards and designs. And no that is a connector for a s trap toilet.


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## Cutonce (Oct 1, 2010)

rrk said:


> That vanity top is nice. For a scrub tree it must get pretty big for a slab of that size.
> 
> Now that some toilets only use 1 gallon of water a tank of that size is not needed anymore. More toilets will be like the Hatbox style, especially now that American Standard in now owned by a Japanese company.


If you look carefully at the picture, you can see the change in patterns of the the growth rings. Its the same slab, but was cut in half and jointed together. But yes scrub trees grow really fast here and can get really big.

That toilet is a modern toilet with a 4.5 liter full flush and a 3L half.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

drspec said:


> I posted this on another forum but it seems more fitting here


I agree... a good argument keeps us thinking. (Probably not what you meant):thumbup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

hdavis said:


> Chalk up 2 definite busted ones on one possible, all from large people. One drunk, one elderly and couldn't move well. The third was drunk, but he may have kicked it - I'm not sure if that counts.


Like I said I have never seen it or even heard about it happening until now. But still not enough to change the way it's done.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Cutonce said:


> Aus has its own standards and designs. And no that is a connector for a s trap toilet.


I didn't say they were the same standards or designs. I was saying they are a mixture of the 2 systems. The UK uses the same pan connectors as you use but they are rear exit not floor exit. 

Here's a UK version. Slightly different design but shows what I'm talking about.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Perhaps you can show me where I said my way is the right way! almost certain i didnt say that. I'm not bothered who installs them 1-10" of the wall if that what they like that's their choice. But when a toilet says 12" rough in I expect it to be 12" not 14" because its an idiot proof toilet. I fully get that idiot proof toilets are needed because there's idiots about but they should have the true dimensions on them. Its stupid to have to by a higher end toilet to get a true 12" RO.
> 
> Also my example of the rest if the world does it this way means they have zero problem with painting behind them or condensation issues.


You didn't say those words. You didn't have to. So let me ask you which is the right way to do it?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You didn't say those words. You didn't have to. So let me ask you which is the right way to do it?


I know I didn't say them words. That's why I have no idea why you said I did. 

The right way is the way my customer wants it done. In my own house I would put them against the wall. If a customer wants them 2-3" from the wall to paint behind and I can't talk them out of it then they can have it that way. But upto yet in 5 years doing this here in the US not one has said yeah get me a toilet that sits of the wall. Its not like I don't give them the option either. When I remove the old toilet I ask them if they would prefer it closer to the wall so they don't have to clean behind it and it will look nicer. After they see pictures if what I mean they say put it on the wall. 

Normally its not an issue as I buy a 12" rough in toilet and its 12" not 14" but it seems I have to now upgrade the toilets to the more expensive true 12" rough in toilets or move the soil flange to a 10" rough in like I had to on my current job.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> and clearly you have no idea what your talking about going on about condensation behind the cistern. Never seen that happen


News flash - it happens all summer here. All it takes is to have the incoming water temp significantly lower than the dew point. I've seen some sweat so bad I thought there was a water leak - big puddle running across the floor.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

hdavis said:


> News flash - it happens all summer here. All it takes is to have the incoming water temp significantly lower than the dew point. I've seen some sweat so bad I thought there was a water leak - big puddle running across the floor.


Happens here also....


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## Brian Peters (Feb 2, 2011)

Here too.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

I guess that's why va is the best state... Our climate is awesome. Lol. No sweating here


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> I know I didn't say them words. That's why I have no idea why you said I did.
> 
> The right way is the way my customer wants it done. In my own house I would put them against the wall. If a customer wants them 2-3" from the wall to paint behind and I can't talk them out of it then they can have it that way. But upto yet in 5 years doing this here in the US not one has said yeah get me a toilet that sits of the wall. Its not like I don't give them the option either. When I remove the old toilet I ask them if they would prefer it closer to the wall so they don't have to clean behind it and it will look nicer. After they see pictures if what I mean they say put it on the wall.
> 
> Normally its not an issue as I buy a 12" rough in toilet and its 12" not 14" but it seems I have to now upgrade the toilets to the more expensive true 12" rough in toilets or move the soil flange to a 10" rough in like I had to on my current job.


I said it because I have never heard someone think it was okay to do something that looked stupid. I have never heard someone that thought putting into a position to break is the right way. All of your indications told me that you think the right way to do it is to mount it up against the wall and the wrong way is to leave a gap. So you think leaving a gap is okay?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

hdavis said:


> News flash - it happens all summer here. All it takes is to have the incoming water temp significantly lower than the dew point. I've seen some sweat so bad I thought there was a water leak - big puddle running across the floor.


All three of ours do it as well. Our powder room is on a slab and it's the worst. Looks like the toilet is leaking. I even put insulation in the tank and it still does it. Humidity and cold water don't mix. I would never install a toilet tight to the wall. I might get it close, but never touching.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

hdavis said:


> News flash - it happens all summer here. All it takes is to have the incoming water temp significantly lower than the dew point. I've seen some sweat so bad I thought there was a water leak - big puddle running across the floor.


I know it happens and as I said use a insulated cistern. It gonna condensate no matter if its against a wall or not. In a situation like this use the correct products. 

As I said before dont use the retro fit insulated cistern kits. Use a real insulated cistern or if you can find one cosmetically you like use a TMV.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I said it because I have never heard someone think it was okay to do something that looked stupid. I have never heard someone that thought putting into a position to break is the right way. All of your indications told me that you think the right way to do it is to mount it up against the wall and the wrong way is to leave a gap. So you think leaving a gap is okay?


Just admit toilets against the wall look better, they have better function even though you have never seen a cracked cistern I have. Only 4 in 5 years but it happens. I don't work for a lot of big people so that's why I don't see this happen. There's contractors out there who just deal in bariatric construction. They see it all the time and they would normally not even use a toilet with a cistern as some if these people are so big they can't sit on the pan with a cistern in place and will use a flushomerer or similar.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> I know it happens and as I said use a insulated cistern. It gonna condensate no matter if its against a wall or not. In a situation like this use the correct products.
> 
> As I said before dont use the retro fit insulated cistern kits. Use a real insulated cistern or if you can find one cosmetically you like use a TMV.


LOL, I should install tight to the wall, causing the need to use an insulated tank to prevent mildew, which in most models isn't a stocked item around here. So, in the event of a replacement, I get to special order and move the rough in because you think it looks better and the customer doesn't care? I'll do that, as long as you pay for it if the customer won't. I've only had one want an insulated tank, and they didn't want to move the rough in.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

hdavis said:


> LOL, I should install tight to the wall, causing the need to use an insulated tank to prevent mildew, which in most models isn't a stocked item around here. So, in the event of a replacement, I get to special order and move the rough in because you think it looks better and the customer doesn't care? I'll do that, as long as you pay for it if the customer won't. I've only had one want an insulated tank, and they didn't want to move the rough in.


Like I said if you don't want to use the correct products that's your choice. I spec what's required for the job special order or not.

And I'm curious if you don't fix the sweating issue on the cisterns if this is a common problem in your area. By the way its a cistern not a tank! Then what did you do to stop this? Did you just leave it dripping constantly?


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> Like I said if you don't want to use the correct products that's your choice. I spec what's required for the job special order or not.
> 
> And I'm curious if you don't fix the sweating issue on the cisterns if this is a common problem in your area. By the way its a cistern not a tank! Then what did you do to stop this? Did you just leave it dripping constantly?


Please let all of the US toilet manufacturing companies know, that in addition to making toilets whose sizes are 2" off from what they say they are, they are incorrectly labeled as tanks and bowls, they should show in the instructions that the tank should be bolted to the wall, and that BCC is always right and everybody is wrong.


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## Brian Peters (Feb 2, 2011)

I had never heard of a toilet having a cistern until reading this thread... Oh the things I learn on here!


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