# Another makita battery bites the dust!



## Santi78342 (Oct 27, 2013)

mdwkpdx said:


> Maybe I read it wrong but I didn't find anything on the HD/Ridgid site that indicates that they offer a lifetime warranty on batteries. If they did, I would go tomorrow and buy and impact driver/drill kit.
> 
> Do you know something I don't know or couldn't find?


You can find the information here

From the text:

"To accept this Lifetime Service Agreement, you must register your product and submit proof of purchase as described below. The Lifetime Service Agreement provides the original owner of qualifying RIDGID® Brand tools a lifetime of free replacement batteries, free service and free replacement parts subject to the limitations set forth below"


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## mdwkpdx (Jun 17, 2012)

Thanks. That is a great policy.




Santi78342 said:


> You can find the information here
> 
> From the text:
> 
> "To accept this Lifetime Service Agreement, you must register your product and submit proof of purchase as described below. The Lifetime Service Agreement provides the original owner of qualifying RIDGID® Brand tools a lifetime of free replacement batteries, free service and free replacement parts subject to the limitations set forth below"


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

My charges keep breaking. 2 of them this year. And both of them aren't even a year old. They just won't charge. The green light comes on after like 2 mins like it's charged, but its not.


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

jlsconstruction said:


> My charges keep breaking. 2 of them this year. And both of them aren't even a year old. They just won't charge. The green light comes on after like 2 mins like it's charged, but its not.


That's odd, I've never had an issue with the Makita chargers and we've got 10 of them. 

Regarding the ridgid tools... even with the battery replacement they ain't worth it. I've had them in the past and hated them. Although with the way my employees abuse tools I should probably switch over to the ridgid for them.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

RobertCDF said:


> That's odd, I've never had an issue with the Makita chargers and we've got 10 of them.
> 
> Regarding the ridgid tools... even with the battery replacement they ain't worth it. I've had them in the past and hated them. Although with the way my employees abuse tools I should probably switch over to the ridgid for them.


I have 2 older ones 4 or 5 years and they still work fine. Just not the 2 newer ones


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

jlsconstruction said:


> I have 2 older ones 4 or 5 years and they still work fine. Just not the 2 newer ones


Are your new ones the black ones? I haven't really used the black one much.


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## BBuild (Oct 10, 2012)

RobertCDF said:


> Are your new ones the black ones? I haven't really used the black one much.


The black charger I have isn't the same as my teal ones. It's slightly smaller and is a 30/60 minute charger versus 15/30 minutes. It also doesn't have the built in fan and it doesn't sing me a song when it's done either. I got it during the x-mas sale at HD. I got the white 1/2" drill, one 1.5 battery and the black charger for $100.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

I have a teal charger and 2 generic 4.5ah batteries. One of the two is 7 months old and the other is a month old. every once in a while the charger will give me the yellow light and I just re-seat the pack and it charges fine. When the packs are too cold I put them in front of a heater. These last all day, definitely longer than my buddies new genuine makita 3ah batteries. They have a lot more torque when drilling, presumably because there are 3 sets of cells and can deliver more current.

I use them in a standard white drill, a rotary impact, and a nicd hammer function drill with a "liondapter". The nicd drill draws a lot more current than lithium tools. This is the concept behind makitas "star protection". Certain tools draw a lot of current and could harm certain batteries they cell. Many of the 3ah batteries they make are only marginally larger than the 1.5ah batteries and only work with "star" tools. Since battery capacity is dependent upon discharge rate I would guess these cells can not support the higher rates of discharge without damage or yielding less power. The "star protection" is really just winding the motor to a higher resistance which limits the amount of current that can pass through.

My co-workers joke that my generic batteries are car batteries because of their size. They are about the same size as a dewalt nicd. Comparing them to the 1.5ah makitas it is easy to see they have cells that are 3 times the size. You get what you pay for. I paid 37$ for each of mine. they have since risen to 45$ a piece. I believe with makita you pay for the brand. There are only 3 factories in the world making these cells so it's not like any joe schmoe is pumping out crap and claiming it's gold.

For 45$ including shipping I think it's worth a shot to try the generics. I have been using them long enough that I am confident in them. To me the upside is that it won't brick itself because it is standard lithium cell protection and no makita proprietary circuitry. They have them on amazon as well for a couple bucks more.

Seller I bought my batteries from:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/361019269115?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

The adapter for nicd tools:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111475624873?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

With my nicd drill, adapter, and one of these, I damn near sprained my wrist. Working in an old house I went to drill a half inch hole in what I thought was 3/4" flooring. Turned out to be 3" thick! When the drill caught it slammed my wrist into a door. These batteries certainly have all the power they claim. I hope to get at least 2 years out of each of them.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

*Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!*

Who the hell is still using nicd's? I stopped using them 10 years ago.

Ok so I read it again. Your using adapters to run the nicd drills on lI-ion packs. 

Why not just buy some new tools and run OEM packs. Them old nicd tools ain't worth a dam compared to all these new brushless setups.


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## Gumphri (May 17, 2014)

I've had my makita cordless about 8 years. I've had 2 batteries go in that 8 years. I've stored them once for 6 months and used them 5 days a week for 3/4 of the time I've owned them. I've charged them in -30C to +30C, left them out in my truck and the only time they give me grief is if they are allowed to freeze they seem to loose some of their charge. My teal charger's fan screams like a banshee but has for years. I've had 2 bad batteries, one under warranty and one at something over 500 charges. I've been nice to them and hard on them. 

As for brushless, they were late to the game on the drill. But, I think they have 2 nice ones out now.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Gumphri said:


> I've had my makita cordless about 8 years. I've had 2 batteries go in that 8 years. I've stored them once for 6 months and used them 5 days a week for 3/4 of the time I've owned them. I've charged them in -30C to +30C, left them out in my truck and the only time they give me grief is if they are allowed to freeze they seem to loose some of their charge. My teal charger's fan screams like a banshee but has for years. I've had 2 bad batteries, one under warranty and one at something over 500 charges. I've been nice to them and hard on them.
> 
> 
> 
> As for brushless, they were late to the game on the drill. But, I think they have 2 nice ones out now.



Yeah makita messed up in the brushless game. They brought out the LXT range super early compared to others and have got a unreal range that runs on that pack but they were slow to the brushless game. 

They also had a bad battery design with the 3AH pack but I'm guessing that was on purpose as they have prob sold a bunch of packs which is where they make their money. 

Your packs being cold is better for them when holding a charge. The down side is you won't get full output from them when they cold until they warmed up.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

BCConstruction said:


> Who the hell is still using nicd's? I stopped using them 10 years ago.
> 
> Ok so I read it again. Your using adapters to run the nicd drills on lI-ion packs.
> 
> Why not just buy some new tools and run OEM packs. Them old nicd tools ain't worth a dam compared to all these new brushless setups.





Hey!!! I am!:laughing::laughing:

I run my tools 'til their death and my old Makita 18v won't die no matter what I put them through.:thumbsup:
That's why I have been buying Makita cordless since 1983.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

"Why not just buy some new tools and run OEM packs. Them old nicd tools ain't worth a dam compared to all these new brushless setups."

The nicd tools are actually a cut above the lion tools. The nicd tools weren't worth a damn, when used with nicds. Lion batteries put out much more current. 

I would reckon this was one of the reasons makita had so many battery issues, especially with the 3ah batteries. I am sure that before makita started producing lion tools they made sure that the batteries would be able to handle the tough use. Their cautiousness is shown in the late release of brushless tools. Obviously the 3ah batteries were made from a different design of cell, hence the higher power to weight ratio over the 1.5ah batteries.The 3ah packs were probably released to fill the consumers want of larger capacity packs. Although better cells are available that could have that capacity and be just as light makita went with inferior cells knowing that they needed to appease the consumer while at the same time not wanting to spend the extra cash. This corresponds with a move to manufacturing in china, part of why the nicd tools are better, mad in japan. When the tools with the old design of motor, a design that probably remained virtually unchanged from the nicd era, was drawing too much current for the lion cells they developed "star protection". "Star protection" is really just motors with a higher internal resistance and chargers with relaxed rates of current which is why the black chargers take longer.

The nicd tools are worth quite a bit. I have one nicd tool currently that I use an adapter on. It is much better than any lithium drill I have used when itself is used with my generic "car battery" lithiums. It was practically brand new when it was given to me, the nicd packs with it were dead, barely used. Well worth the 36$ for the adapter.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

I have a corded black and decker drill with a metal gearbox and hardened steel gears. It was my fathers and has to be about 30-40 years old. I dis-assembled it to regrease it and I almost didn't. the grease looked great and the gears were still super sharp. I know how much i used in the ten years prior and am sure my father used it a lot too. only spun at 800 rpm and when it caught you let go quick, I got my wrist twisted from it once. Some things really aren't as good as they used to be, it's a shame.


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## m1911 (Feb 24, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Who the hell is still using nicd's? I stopped using them 10 years ago.
> 
> Ok so I read it again. Your using adapters to run the nicd drills on lI-ion packs.
> 
> Why not just buy some new tools and run OEM packs. Them old nicd tools ain't worth a dam compared to all these new brushless setups.


I've got several Bosch ni-cd powered tools from 15 years ago, and the batteries still work, not 100% capacity of course, but they work. Ni-cd batteries take a lot more heavy abuse than LiIon.
The Makita Ni-Mh batteries I had were junk.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

Yeah nimh batteries dont discharge or charge as quickly as nicds. the memory affect with nicds was terrible, nimh batteries are less susceptible to this and for a while they were preffered over nicds. when this issue with nicds was fixed they came back into use.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

It's not that lI-ion is not as heavy duty because they are. They can put out vastly more current and be charged vastly quicker too. 

The issue is they have something called a cutoff voltage so if you leave the battery dead and don't charge it for a few months it could drop below this voltage and cell polarity can reverse. Which is not good when it gets back on the charger. 

What will be great is when we start seeing Li-Po packs in tools. The capacity of them things and their discharge and charge rates are unreal. 

I'm sure it's only gonna be a couple years before we start seeing them used. That will take cordless tools to a whole other level.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

All rechargeable batteries can reverse polarity if they get too low. Lithium ions just like any other type come in different qualities and with different chemistries. Obviously the 3ah batteries aren't the same kind as the 1.5ah. I don't think I said they aren't heavy duty but they are more fragile than the other types.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> All rechargeable batteries can reverse polarity if they get too low. Lithium ions just like any other type come in different qualities and with different chemistries. Obviously the 3ah batteries aren't the same kind as the 1.5ah. I don't think I said they aren't heavy duty but they are more fragile than the other types.
> 
> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries



Yes they can reverse but it's not a problem in other chemistry packs as they will right them self and reverse voltage happens at way lower voltage to where as lI-ion has a safety cut of of about 3.2-3.6v if I remember correctly.

Also the cells are exactly the same I'm the 3.0ah and 1.5hr packs. There's just less of them in there.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

BCConstruction said:


> Yes they can reverse but it's not a problem in other chemistry packs as they will right them self and reverse voltage happens at way lower voltage to where as lI-ion has a safety cut of of about 3.2-3.6v if I remember correctly.
> 
> Also the cells are exactly the same I'm the 3.0ah and 1.5hr packs. There's just less of them in there.


It is a problem in other types. What I have seen on both sizes of packs tells me they are not the same cells. The underlying chemistry may be the same but that doesn't mean the construction is exactly the same.

The main issue, to get back to the thread topic, is really that the control board on makita packs only draws from one cell. This can cause the cells to have different voltages and the charger bricks it because this can be dangerous. The "star protection" is annoying but understandable.

I am going to stick with my big generics unless they show me they aren't reliable. The same goes for my nicd tools too.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

*Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!*



skoronesa said:


> It is a problem in other types. What I have seen on both sizes of packs tells me they are not the same cells. The underlying chemistry may be the same but that doesn't mean the construction is exactly the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No it's not a problem with other cells as they don't explode like Lithium does when a charge is put into the cell in a reverse state. that's the whole point of cell me monitoring in the new lithium packs. A Ni-Cd and Ni-Mh will charge safely from nothing so no need for safety features. 

The 1.5ah and 3.0ah packs both use Sony 18650 cells either in a 5S1P configuration in the 1.5ah or a 5S2P configuration in the 3.0ah.

They are the same cell type I use in my flashlight.

Also the star has nothing to do with charging. Star protection is a system in place on the tool it's self and not every tool has it. When a LXT pack is connected to a star tool it has features like low voltage cut off, over amp cut off and over temp cut off. This is nothing to do with charging.


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

My Makita tools just sit in the shop. I've gone through all the Makita batteries I had. I start to buy more, then I just stop and wonder why I'm putting myself through it again.

I have heard you can use the old chargers on the new batteries. When the new chargers say the battery pack is dead, guys will put them in an old charger and it charges them. Just what I've heard. I don't have an old charger.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I have the oldest LXT charger made and that's not the case. If you put the battery in the charger I think it's 5x when it's too discharged it will flag the battery as a dud on all chargers. 

The only way to fix this after its happened is take the discharged cell out and solder a new one in. There's plenty of cells available online or use a cell from a old pack. 

I also heard a trick that freezing the battery before charging will help it get enough juice to bring the battery's up above cut off voltage. Not sure this would work either as the charger won't charge a pack when it's too cold. 


I have only had 3 go bad but I keep mine topped up after each use.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

"No it's not a problem with other cells as they don't explode like Lithium does when a charge is put into the cell in a reverse state. that's the whole point of cell me monitoring in the new lithium packs. A Ni-Cd and Ni-Mh will charge safely from nothing so no need for safety features."

-Just because they don't explode doesn't mean it's not an issue. Cells drawn too low are subject to this type of damage.


"The 1.5ah and 3.0ah packs both use Sony 18650 cells either in a 5S1P configuration in the 1.5ah or a 5S2P configuration in the 3.0ah."

-18650 is a cell size and does not indicate chemistry, much less subtle differences that would affect discharge and charge rates. The configuration is either 5 cells in series or 2 sets of 5 cells in series then wired in parallel.


"They are the same cell type I use in my flashlight."

-If you really want to know about lithiums, go to candle power forums, just prepare your self.


"Also the star has nothing to do with charging." 

-The "star protection" has everything to do with charging. When cells are put in parallel charge and discharge rates increase. Don't feel insulted, I am sure you understand basic wiring and electrical, I am just being thorough.


"Star protection is a system in place on the tool it's self and not every tool has it."

-Other than the electrical resistance of the tool's circuit, the tools have no such protection, at least not the "star" tools I have disassembled. And correct, not all tools use the same amount of current so some may or may not be used with the "star" batteries which don't support the higher discharge rates.


"When a LXT pack is connected to a star tool it has features like low voltage cut off, over amp cut off and over temp cut off. This is nothing to do with charging."

-The protection circuit is in the battery pack itself. Low voltage, high draw, and over/under-temp are all controlled in the pack itself. The temperature sensor and individual balancing wires are all pinned out on the little yellow connector. The circuit in the battery keeps count of charge and discharge cycles. A charger may stop charging the battery if the circuit lists a certain number of cycles or if a cell has a voltage that is below a certain point and thus may be damaged. The battery’s protection circuit would not let the battery accept too much current.


"I have the oldest LXT charger made and that's not the case. If you put the battery in the charger I think it's 5x when it's too discharged it will flag the battery as a dud on all chargers. 

The only way to fix this after its happened is take the discharged cell out and solder a new one in. There's plenty of cells available online or use a cell from a old pack."

-There must be some sort of write only memory which keeps track of the cycles and whether or not a cell has been drawn down to low. You would have to reset this in order to charge it even if you replaced the defective cell. I have read accounts of people trying to replace cells in packs and have yet to read one that succeeded, please share with me any info you have found on successful pack rebuilds.


"I also heard a trick that freezing the battery before charging will help it get enough juice to bring the battery's up above cut off voltage. Not sure this would work either as the charger won't charge a pack when it's too cold."

-We used to put our dead alkaline batteries in the freezer and when we tried them again they would work for a bit. Really you are just giving the chemicals in the battery time to react before you use them again. The cold actually inhibits the reaction but mentally you wouldn't think giving them a break would work if you did something as simple as let them sit in a drawer for a couple days. I mean, if you freeze them, something has to happen right? lolz.

However this may or may not be the case with the lions: http://bit.ly/1AfKkf4


"I have only had 3 go bad but I keep mine topped up after each use."

-Yes, the best thing you can do is keep them charged. When we take lunch we throw ours on the chargers whether they are empty or not. Changing out a pack before it's totally empty is a good idea too. And if we have power available we use the corded sawzall, most cordless ones suck anyway. I do love my buddies cordless bandsaw though, that thing is tits.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

For an independent opinion of the state of charge [SOC] of the battery measure its voltage, then look up what voltage to expect vs SOC for the particular battery technology.
This test is not foolproof. For more info you need a homemade or bought load resistor.
Charging may be complex but discharge should still follow simple rules.

And with resistors you can trickle charge these things from a car battery.

If somebody's posted the schematics for these things you'll have additional help in reverse-engineering these intelligent chargers and intelligent battery packs.

It depends on what your time is worth, and correctly interpreting your test results.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> "No it's not a problem with other cells as they don't explode like Lithium does when a charge is put into the cell in a reverse state. that's the whole point of cell me monitoring in the new lithium packs. A Ni-Cd and Ni-Mh will charge safely from nothing so no need for safety features."
> 
> -Just because they don't explode doesn't mean it's not an issue. Cells drawn too low are subject to this type of damage.
> 
> ...



Ok anything else you want to be wrong on :laughing::thumbsup:


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

"The 1.5ah and 3.0ah packs both use Sony 18650 cells either in a 5S1P configuration in the 1.5ah or a 5S2P configuration in the 3.0ah."

-18650 is a cell size and does not indicate chemistry, much less subtle differences that would affect discharge and charge rates. The configuration is either 5 cells in series or 2 sets of 5 cells in series then wired in parallel.

I didnt say it indicates chemistry but if you want me to be exact they use the Konion LiMn cells and they are the same cells between each pack but half the amount of cells. which gives you either 3.0ah or 1.5ah

That still isn't exact, all you have given me is a manufacturers name. What makes you so sure they are the same? part numbers on cells you haven't even seen?




-The "star protection" has everything to do with charging. When cells are put in parallel charge and discharge rates increase. Don't feel insulted, I am sure you understand basic wiring and electrical, I am just being thorough.

Again it has nothing to do with the charging. The star system is a system that lets the tools and the battery comnucate with each other. It has nothing to do with the charger and the battery. Also im not insulted. Just trying to teach you about what you know nothing about :thumbsup:

http://makitatools.com/en-us/Modules/Tools/LXTAdvantage/StarProtection.aspx


"Star protection is a system in place on the tool it's self and not every tool has it."

-Other than the electrical resistance of the tool's circuit, the tools have no such protection, at least not the "star" tools I have disassembled. And correct, not all tools use the same amount of current so some may or may not be used with the "star" batteries which don't support the higher discharge rates.

That's not what i said above. Star system is a system that lets the tool and battery communicate. When these 2 tools are put together the system works. When the star battery is put into a non star tool the system does not work.


You are referencing a press release/promotional advertising? There is nothin gthe tool to communicate with the battery. Please show me actual evidence that supports this.





ES has had numerous people swap out cells and get packs working again. I my self have never bothered to try it. Its not worth my time. But it has to be done before the battery gets locked out by the charger

Again, where's the link to this evidence? I have a buddy with a ton of old makita batteries and I would love to fix them if it's worth it.





Again star system has nothing to do with charging. Its the charger that supply's the current to the packs. Weather it be a C1 charge rate or a C10 charge rate. The battery cant control the charging current. 

If a battery has a circuit to shut off supply of current when too much is drawn what makes you think it can't work the other way? Mind you it need not, the charger could shut off supply. I have seen cell phones not accept a charge when the data line value isn't set correctly.


Ok anything else you want to be wrong on :laughing::thumbsup:

You still have yet to show me anything other than a press release and a manufacturers name. Please, prove me wrong, with evidence next time. Like pictures of an open tool and this protection circuit you claim talks to the battery.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

*Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!*



skoronesa said:


> "The 1.5ah and 3.0ah packs both use Sony 18650 cells either in a 5S1P configuration in the 1.5ah or a 5S2P configuration in the 3.0ah."
> 
> -18650 is a cell size and does not indicate chemistry, much less subtle differences that would affect discharge and charge rates. The configuration is either 5 cells in series or 2 sets of 5 cells in series then wired in parallel.
> 
> ...


Again im the only one showing anything to back up what they are saying. I have shown you so far that i know vastly more about this than you do yet you have nothing to back up what your saying yet you still think you are right. Makita say you are wrong, Sony say you are wrong, ES says you are wrong and CPF says you are wrong.

You aren't a iPhone user my any chance lol?


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

That is a picture of a "star protection" drill. The only thing more complicated than the variable switch is the mosfet under the motor. it's gate threshold is 4v So I assume it's used to stop the drill from drawing current at a voltage too low to turn the motor and draining the battery. 

This is the data sheet for the part number:
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/228027/IRF/IRFP3206PBF.html

I threw in a picture of my rotary impact as well. It has a switch with an integrated mosfet.

Both of theses tools have "star protection".


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

Both of those have the yellow wire going into the switch and it is probably hooked up to a thermocouple because that switch dissipates a good amount of heat and would get too hot before the motor. The only other wires are for the led lights.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

And no, I have great disdain for iphones, mostly their lack of sd card slots. I have a droid incredible, the first version. I got it for 18$ it is the second one I have had. Before my incredibles I had a lot of razrs.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

The key take away from those pictures is the absence of any form of communication other than what might be a thermocouple. One sensor. For heat. I don't call that communication.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> The key take away from those pictures is the absence of any form of communication other than what might be a thermocouple. One sensor. For heat. I don't call that communication.



Well again until you can prove with proof makita wrong about their own design it's nothing but make believe. 

upto yet you still giving me no proof of star battery's controlling charge current. Yet makita say it has nothing to do with charging. I also know it has nothing to do with charging as I know people who have charged these packs at 10c on RC chargers. 

No proof that the cells are not the same in these packs. Yet part numbers are exactly the same for replacement cells

At least have something to back up what your saying.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

"Well again until you can prove with proof makita wrong about their own design it's nothing but make believe"
^^Your question^^

Just to get this straight, your statement^^ refers to me saying that there is no communication and you saying there is after having read the makita page which says: 

"Makita’s STAR Protection Computer Controls™ allow the battery and tool to communicate and protect your tool and battery from overload by cutting power when put under abnormally high current draw."
^^Makitas lie^^

They say outright that the tool and battery communicate to "protect your tool and battery from overload by cutting power..."

I am arguing that the tool is "dumb" and does not communicate. That the battery has it's own circuit board which is "smart" and that the battery itself cuts power based on the current being transferred. 
^^My first argument^^

The reason I am saying this and believe that it is important, is that makita is trying to get people to believe they have made a major change to their batteries to stop them failing in droves. Even the "star" batteries fail just as often as they did before the "star protection" was implemented.

I have opened, and photographed two "star protection tools and shown that there is no device in them capable of communication with the battery nor does the tool or connector have the necessary wires for said communication. With the exception of a thermocouple which is neither novel or different from the original failing batteries.
^^My evidence for #1^^




"upto yet you still giving me no proof of star battery's controlling charge current."

""When a LXT pack is connected to a star tool it has features like low voltage cut off, over amp cut off and over temp cut off. This is nothing to do with charging."

-The protection circuit is in the battery pack itself. Low voltage, high draw, and over/under-temp are all controlled in the pack itself. The temperature sensor and individual balancing wires are all pinned out on the little yellow connector. The circuit in the battery keeps count of charge and discharge cycles. A charger may stop charging the battery if the circuit lists a certain number of cycles or if a cell has a voltage that is below a certain point and thus may be damaged. The battery’s protection circuit would not let the battery accept too much current."
^^My 2nd argument^^


I made a postulation that the battery could limit or stop the charge current. This wasn't a statment of fact but guess and I was wrong. Either way my Factual claim was "The circuit in the battery keeps count of charge and discharge cycles. A charger may stop charging the battery if the circuit lists a certain number of cycles or if a cell has a voltage that is below a certain point and thus may be damaged." I made this claim as I see it as the crux of the problem. For good reason charge and discharge cycles are kept track of and the charger will not charge a battery that has seen "x" number of cycles on the assumption that the battery will soon fail thereafter. That is fine and dandy. This is only one of a couple decisions the charger makes. The problem is when the charger sees a cell that is at a significantly lower voltage which is caused by the control circuit drawing from only one cell.

I had read a forum thread where an individual disassembled a dead makita battery pack and did testing. He even went so far as to put an oscilliscope to the thing. He found that the control circuitry only drew from one cell causing the cell to have a significantly lower voltage if it sat idle for some time. I have not been able to find that thread but have found this: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?280754-Makita-18V-LXT-batteries
Look at post number 6 and 7.
"-There must be some sort of write only memory which keeps track of the cycles and whether or not a cell has been drawn down to low. You would have to reset this in order to charge it even if you replaced the defective cell. I have read accounts of people trying to replace cells in packs and have yet to read one that succeeded, please share with me any info you have found on successful pack rebuilds.
ES has had numerous people swap out cells and get packs working again. I my self have never bothered to try it. Its not worth my time. But it has to be done before the battery gets locked out by the charger." I had read the first thread before someone had rebuilt one of these and my claim was that you couldn't revive a pack once the controller had bricked it, not that a pack couldn't be rebuilt at all.
^^My evidence for #2^^

"No proof that the cells are not the same in these packs. Yet part numbers are exactly the same for replacement cells"
^^Your question^^

While I may not be correct as to whether there are two different types of cells in makitas various packs I brought up this option because some packs Have "star protection" and others do not. the main reason being that the 1.5ah packs can not support the same discharge rates as the 3.0ah. But I have seen 1.5ah packs that were not "star" packs and could be used in regular tools. Etiher these packs had different cells or makita hadn't begun the new "protection" until after these were produced. You still haven't given me actual part numbers or even links to disassembly photos showing the same cells in "star" and non-"star" packs. At this point either of us could be wrong here.

"I would love to know why the charger suddenly decides my battery has had enough?"
^^Your initial question^^

"The main issue, to get back to the thread topic, is really that the control board on makita packs only draws from one cell. This can cause the cells to have different voltages and the charger bricks it because this can be dangerous. The "star protection" is annoying but understandable."
^^My response^^
I will admit that it took several posts before I actually responded to your original question and I apologize. I would like to note that your lack of knowledge in the construction of these packs is in direct contrast to your statement: "I have shown you so far that i know vastly more about this than you do..."


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> "Well again until you can prove with proof makita wrong about their own design it's nothing but make believe"
> ^^Your question^^
> 
> Just to get this straight, your statement^^ refers to me saying that there is no communication and you saying there is after having read the makita page which says:
> ...


*No need to apologize. As people on here know i am a myth buster. Mainly on Apple threads and diff threads with Tom  but when i know my **** i dont back down :thumbsup: I spent a good long 3 months + looking into how i can fix these packs and learnt a lot along the way. It was one of the reason i joined endless sphere and candle power forums.*


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

Someone gave me some makita stuff, 2 rotary impacts and a regular drill. all white, cordless, "star". they also gave me 3 batteries that won't charge.

Went on google and found these generic circuit boards: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Repair-Maki...41?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ed291f0cd#

I figure i will buy two and use the 2 good cells from one of the packs to replace the single bad cells in the other two.

All 3 batteries are the bl1815. I will report back on my success, most likely in a month or two as these will be coming from russia and will probably take some time.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

If I die from exploding batteries my wife has instructions to let you guys know


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

60 seconds later new plan.....

kept searching and found these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/18v-1500mAh...229?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a4bf0888d

When these are only 6$ more than the bare chip i dont know if i could waste my money like that. I will either try charging one of these with a circuit from one of my generic 4.5ah's or get one of these 1.5ah's and borrow the circuit to test with the rebuilt makita packs. if they seem to hold a decent charge i will get the bare boards and fix them.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Have you seen how cheap generic 1.5ah packs are. You are better off buying them than putting in that time and money to fix packs with old cells. All them cells could have dropped below cut off voltage depending how long they been sitting.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

yeah, i did, 60 seconds later, and i posted again stating so before you replied. i assume you opened your thing to reply before i made my second post, lolz. Kind of like when you text someone and end up having two conversations....


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> yeah, i did, 60 seconds later, and i posted again stating so before you replied. i assume you opened your thing to reply before i made my second post, lolz. Kind of like when you text someone and end up having two conversations....



Let us know how you find them. Be nice to have some feedback from people on here.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

I also found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Makita-bl18...0&pid=100005&rk=2&rkt=6&sd=271409182738&rt=nc

it is for charging the bricked makitas. I checked his feedback for the other two sold and both were positive. Kind of expensive and only watches total pack voltage but hey, put it in its own metal box with a fire extinguisher near by and i suppose this would be a viable fix if you have more than 4 or so dead batteries.








AAA+++a***k ( 303







) 
During past 6 months Charger for not charging Makita bl1830 lithium ion battery 220V 230V 240V (#231375195558)US $135.00View Item







this charger is awesome I was to charge about 8 batteries that I could not chargn***d ( 28







) 
During past 6 months Makita bl1830 18V li-ion battery charger for not charging defective batteries (#231375195086)US $130.00View Item


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

found a third good feedback:








Thanksd***r ( 250







) 
During past 6 months Makita bl1830 18V li-ion battery charger for not charging defective batteries (#231415603407)US $130.00View Item


EDIT: actually after looking more he has sold a lot of these. Whelp, this guy wins the award for quick fix.


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## Rustbucket (May 22, 2009)

The question is if these feedback posters are either him or his buddies. I really don't trust anything that claims to "fix" bad batteries. I don't think it's possible due to the chemical reactions that cause a battery to go bad.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

IMPORTANT BREAKTHROUGH!!!


1st: @rustbucket. I dont think he is lying it's pretty straight forward to wire something like this up, pretty basic stuff. He has good feedback from many different buyers over a long period of time, this is rare to emulate.

2nd: I have found the solution!!!! Wasn't my idea, it was "ifixthings" on CPF. Check the 3rd page on this link: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?280754-Makita-18V-LXT-batteries/page3

He was the last one to post and no one responded. I tried it today with my 3 and a buddies, worked on all of them!

First: put the battery on the charger

Second: plug the charger in

Third: it will begin to charge, after 20 seconds or so it would normally freak out with the blinking red and green lights, it should stay charging like a good battery

Fourth: after it finishes charging take the battery off and put it back on, you will see that the charger accepts it like normal and after a little bit should show it being done charging

I want to thank "ifixthings", this guy now gets to take the simple fix award from the ebay charger guy. If anyone knows this guy let him know what he has discovered.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> IMPORTANT BREAKTHROUGH!!!
> 
> 
> 1st: @rustbucket. I dont think he is lying it's pretty straight forward to wire something like this up, pretty basic stuff. He has good feedback from many different buyers over a long period of time, this is rare to emulate.
> ...


I have one thats got an error i will test tomorrow. I have only put it in the charger once so far so its not locked out at all yet.


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## carpenter uk (Nov 25, 2009)

I have sent a few back to makita and received new batteries each time no questions asked
I'm in the uk but they may have the same policy in the US


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

carpenter uk said:


> I have sent a few back to makita and received new batteries each time no questions asked
> I'm in the uk but they may have the same policy in the US



Depends how many charge cycles it has had. They will send you new ones if it's under a set amount and battery's were not abused.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

@bcconstruction Have you tried yours yet?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> @bcconstruction Have you tried yours yet?



Nope forgot. Got charger out to do it but never put battery in it. Will let you know as soon as I do.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Just tried it and didn't work. It had only been put on charger once before the error flashes then I tried the above method 3x and battery is now locked out on all my chargers.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

Which charger do you have? mine and my buddies are both dc18ra, the teal one, worked with both of ours. the guy on cpf had dc18sc. I dont know if it would work with the black one.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> Which charger do you have? mine and my buddies are both dc18ra, the teal one, worked with both of ours. the guy on cpf had dc18sc. I dont know if it would work with the black one.


I think i have every charger they ever made but i think it was on the RA. It just flashed for 3 seconds like it was charging then went into lockout and wouldnt charge on any of the other chargers i had. But battery still runs my drill. There's still a bit of charge left in the pack. It may have just hit its max full charge cycles though. It was a battery from 2010.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

you could try putting it in parallel with another battery to raise the voltage some and try again. I would use some insulation sticks as the resistance will limit the current. You need a resistance of 18ohms to limit it to one amp.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

*Another Makita Battery Bites The Dust!*



skoronesa said:


> you could try putting it in parallel with another battery to raise the voltage some and try again. I would use some insulation sticks as the resistance will limit the current. You need a resistance of 18ohms to limit it to one amp.



Sod that. I'm just gonna buy another battery or tool with battery's. My times better spent drinking beer playing GTA5 than fixing battery packs 😬


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## m1911 (Feb 24, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Sod that. I'm just gonna buy another battery or tool with battery's. My times better spent drinking beer playing GTA5 than fixing battery packs 😬


I was thinking the same thing... Throw that chit in the garbage and move on... :laughing:


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## JFM constr (Jul 26, 2014)

in a supply house and see a makita impact on the counter and ask about it -salesman says it is not brushless ,that it is soon to be discontinued , all there tools will soon be all brushless .i asked how soon -he responded with something like " all the tool companies are going brushless but at there own time" 
Wonder if he has info [besides the obvious] I do not know about .Is makita going to be changing there line up this year alot ?Anyone know .I am ordering the brushless saw now and going to getting a 5AH battery .


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

JFM constr said:


> in a supply house and see a makita impact on the counter and ask about it -salesman says it is not brushless ,that it is soon to be discontinued , all there tools will soon be all brushless .i asked how soon -he responded with something like " all the tool companies are going brushless but at there own time"
> Wonder if he has info [besides the obvious] I do not know about .Is makita going to be changing there line up this year alot ?Anyone know .I am ordering the brushless saw now and going to getting a 5AH battery .


it's not in the bruchless saw pack yet but will be in the next couple months.


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## JFM constr (Jul 26, 2014)

did not want to wait so ordered bare saw and one battery . a couple of months seemed like to long . waiting to see if they come out with a compact driver .also will want an impact with some punch . I am gambling that they will want to get some of the market they lost to Milwaukee back and start coming up with some upgraded newer technology .


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I been using the saw last week. It's now took my hypoid makita place. It goes through wet PT like butter and is super light.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

I think there is another part to this puzzle. I have since tried my second charger, it will not charge the old batteries but the other will. I noticed the serial numbers are quite far apart, maybe it's the older dc18ra chargers that work with them and the new ones are different. at some point I will take them apart and compare the circuits to see if one is a newer version with different parts. Wish I had an LCR meter.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Thought I would add this.
Yesterday I'm using my Makita 3amphr 18v lithium ion battery and it runs down.
I put it in the charger, not right away, maybe 1/2 hr later, and I get the light code saying defective battery.
I thought shoot, I just bought this 11/30. I guess I got a beat battery.
I was too busy to mess with it and just left it sitting in the charger,
When I was packing up my tools I realized I forgot to unplug the charger and low and behold the defective battery now showed a green fully charged battery.
I thought the charger was screwed up and put the battery back in my cut off tool and it was in fact all charged up.

Some point in the course of 4hrs the battery accepted a charge??


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Interesting. I will try that on the next pack when it goes bad. Perhaps the pack got above cut off voltage and started to charge.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

@TimNJ- Funny enough I was just reading this review and one of the commenter’s noted the same thing, I don’t think he has used cordless makitas before: 

the review: http://bit.ly/1aLUieu

the comment:
Iain says 
January 2, 2013 at 2:37 pm 
I have 18v Li ion makita battries with the DC18RA charger, almost brand new, it almost always goes red/green when i first plug a battery in to be charged, I just leave it in and in 20 minints or so it is green, ready to go. am I missing something?


@BCC- My father in law also has a low serial charger which will charge makita batteries bricked by others. he says he bought his in 2006. 



I got a nicd model 18v 6-1/2" saw(5620D), was showing it to my father in law and we got talking about the batteries. He has mostly genuines with a couple "powerextra" generics. My generics are the other type, "POWERTOOL BATTERY". Anyway his two crapped out the other day in the sawzall. Mine have been put under heavy use in a coworkers skil saw and sawzall with no ill effect. both of our batteries are about the same age. It's worth noting that his are the 3ah while mine are the 4.5ah. Perhaps the generic cells can't support that much draw and having another set in parallel is the cure or the powerextra brand has cheaper cells. I did notice that the powerextras have many negative reviews which is why I chose to go with the ones I did. 



When his failed to charge it went like this: standard beep and red solid light for 20 seconds and then all 3 lights would go steady for 5 seconds followed by a solid green light indicating a full charge. This tells me that these generics do have protection not allowing burnt out cells to be recharged. I am going to save his packs and get new cells for them.



I will be recieving a nicd model 18v sawzall in a couple days as well, cant wait. I will try the skilsaw tomorrow and report back.


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

Which light code did it throw? red and green solid or red and green blinking? Solid means 80% charged the other means defective.


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

I thought I would give it a try. No luck for me. 6 hours later, battery still shows bad battery. 
Oh well. Not like it cost me anything to try. 

So. Invest in more batteries with a very short life span or leave a great drill and impact sitting?
Short life span in my opinion.


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## JFM constr (Jul 26, 2014)

builditguy said:


> I thought I would give it a try. No luck for me. 6 hours later, battery still shows bad battery.
> Oh well. Not like it cost me anything to try.
> 
> So. Invest in more batteries with a very short life span or leave a great drill and impact sitting?
> Short life span in my opinion.


do not know how much or how you use your tools .if all you have is a drill and impact then not alot holding you back from looking at an upgrade or a shift to another brand . Are they brushless ? if not then that is something to consider .


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

For the past two days I have been trying out the nicd circular saw with the 4.5ah generics using the liondapter battery adapter. It works great. Thought for sure it would stop a couple times when the wood was pinching and it kept going. I don't know about you guys but the two generics I have more than compensate for the genuine batteries. 

If your makita batteries "bite the dust" I suggest trying one of the generics, preferably the 4.5ah. Also the Liondapter is great because you can use your nicd tools if you still have them with the lithiums.


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## Builders Inc. (Feb 24, 2015)

All we use are Makita cordless. The 1.5 Ah and 3.0 Ah are sometimes different. What I mean is the cordless sawzall and circular saw do not accept the 1.5ah batteries. WTF. Also some of the chargers that come with the 1.5ah batteries do not charge the 3.0ah batteries. We have about 10 drills and chargers. I was dead set on the DeWalt 20v impact drivers until I found out the nose of the gun only has one ball bearing and a small clip to hold the thing together and when that goes your bit falls out. Ive had some rebuilt 3 times in a year. JUNK. I stick with Makita. I would love a better battery situation, but I am not looking forward to purchasing 2 grand worth of "new" drills and batteries just for the battery. And as for when a charger or battery goes out I just buy a whole new case with drill, 2 batteries and charger. I can't justify paying $100 per battery when I can buy a whole new drill setup for $300. You know the moment you buy a replacement battery then the drill will crap out. Then you got a new battery and a broken drill....


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Needles said:


> Which light code did it throw? red and green solid or red and green blinking? Solid means 80% charged the other means defective.



Mine threw the "defective" blinking light when I first put the battery in.
I have the black chargers.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

skoronesa said:


> For the past two days I have been trying out the nicd circular saw with the 4.5ah generics using the liondapter battery adapter. It works great. Thought for sure it would stop a couple times when the wood was pinching and it kept going. I don't know about you guys but the two generics I have more than compensate for the genuine batteries.
> 
> If your makita batteries "bite the dust" I suggest trying one of the generics, preferably the 4.5ah. Also the Liondapter is great because you can use your nicd tools if you still have them with the lithiums.


I was thinking of getting the nicd adapters since I have quite a few 18v tools that still work great, but I figure those NiCad batteries are going to start becoming obsolete.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Builders Inc. said:


> All we use are Makita cordless. The 1.5 Ah and 3.0 Ah are sometimes different. What I mean is the cordless sawzall and circular saw do not accept the 1.5ah batteries. WTF. Also some of the chargers that come with the 1.5ah batteries do not charge the 3.0ah batteries. We have about 10 drills and chargers. I was dead set on the DeWalt 20v impact drivers until I found out the nose of the gun only has one ball bearing and a small clip to hold the thing together and when that goes your bit falls out. Ive had some rebuilt 3 times in a year. JUNK. I stick with Makita. I would love a better battery situation, but I am not looking forward to purchasing 2 grand worth of "new" drills and batteries just for the battery. And as for when a charger or battery goes out I just buy a whole new case with drill, 2 batteries and charger. I can't justify paying $100 per battery when I can buy a whole new drill setup for $300. You know the moment you buy a replacement battery then the drill will crap out. Then you got a new battery and a broken drill....



I bought my extra batteries and charger from ebay.
There are guys that apparently buy the kits on sale then sell them out piece by piece for cheaper price than to buy the single pieces from a dealer.

This is how all those flea market guys would sell brand new Craftsman wrenches for close to half what they would cost in the store.
They bought the big sets at the discount then just broke them up to sell pieces.


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## Jswills76 (Nov 12, 2012)

Builders Inc. said:


> All we use are Makita cordless. The 1.5 Ah and 3.0 Ah are sometimes different. What I mean is the cordless sawzall and circular saw do not accept the 1.5ah batteries. WTF. Also some of the chargers that come with the 1.5ah batteries do not charge the 3.0ah batteries. We have about 10 drills and chargers. I was dead set on the DeWalt 20v impact drivers until I found out the nose of the gun only has one ball bearing and a small clip to hold the thing together and when that goes your bit falls out. Ive had some rebuilt 3 times in a year. JUNK. I stick with Makita. I would love a better battery situation, but I am not looking forward to purchasing 2 grand worth of "new" drills and batteries just for the battery. And as for when a charger or battery goes out I just buy a whole new case with drill, 2 batteries and charger. I can't justify paying $100 per battery when I can buy a whole new drill setup for $300. You know the moment you buy a replacement battery then the drill will crap out. Then you got a new battery and a broken drill....


Just trim the one side of the 1.5 and they will fit in everything.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

That's a bad idea. Modifying the tool to take a higher amp pack is fine as the tool only pulls the Amps it requires but putting a lower amp battery in a higher amp tool can destroy the pack almost instantly if overloaded.


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## Jswills76 (Nov 12, 2012)

Going 2 years like that with no problems. I rarely use them in saws since I have plenty of 3.0 a 4.0. But it's nice to have them fit everything


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Jswills76 said:


> Going 2 years like that with no problems. I rarely use them in saws since I have plenty of 3.0 a 4.0. But it's nice to have them fit everything



Yeah they will be fine in the lower amp tools. The saws and sawsall will pull major current. Even the larger drills can.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

Just thought I would update. I bought these: www.ebay.com/itm/111876824228
for $148.75 back in august of 2015, 5 months no issues, even when cutting castiron with the sawzall or 4bys with the skilsaw. I work 5, sometimes 6 days a week so it's not like they don't get used a lot.

On the other hand work bought a bunch of makita kits about 6 months ago and have had issues with 5 packs and a couple tools and 80% of the guys, many of whom have other makita stuff say the 3ah packs don't seem to last like the older makita ones or the other brands. Of course makita moved production of everything to china shortly after the lithium tools came out. 

I think the main benefit with these generics is that each cell sees less draw because there is 3 sets instead of 2. I do have 2 1.5ah made in japan makita batteries that were given to me, they stay in my tool pouch but really only see the impact drill or to make a pilot hole, still they are working at like 6/7 years old. Too bad makita has decided quality in the most crucial aspect of cordless tools wasn't important to them. I really like makita too


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

Also an old wood blade will cut 16ga sheet metal pretty quick and the batteries won't flinch.


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## jetdawg (Apr 9, 2015)

Are the batteries you have entirely made in japan or are only the cells made in japan? Current batteries with leds are assembled in china with cells made in japan.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

With leds? as in light emitting diodes? As far as I know makita doesn't have any batteries with status indicators. There are after market ones with led indicators, mine do not have those. The generics off of ebay are entirely china. The two makita ones are cells from japan and assembled in china, sorry I wasn't specific.

I will have to check the ones at work. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter. I have worked in manufacturing and I know for a fact that the customer(makita) gets what they ask for per their prints. If you say the leads need to be 5"+/-.5" you will always get 4.5" leads on the nose. The only time a product is bad is when the customer doesn't check quality of the parts it buys or if they ask for poorly designed product. Any issues with makita products are because of makitas choices, just like every other company.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of cheap chinese krud out there, but that is not on accident, and it isn't the manufacturers fault because they are making a product to specs. If specs are to be as cheap as possible, guess what? China has a bad rap because they are the largest, most well known exporter of goods to america in an age where companies care most about the bottom line. Japan has a good reputation because japanese manufacturing was cheap when american engineers and companies still asked for good product.


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## BBuild (Oct 10, 2012)

skoronesa said:


> With leds? as in light emitting diodes? As far as I know makita doesn't have any batteries with status.


The newest 2,4, and 5ah batteries have Led gauges. If the model number ends in "B" it has the gauge.


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## skoronesa (Feb 13, 2015)

It's about time, other manufacturers have had them for ages, some right from the start.


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## jetdawg (Apr 9, 2015)




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## JFM constr (Jul 26, 2014)

jetdawg said:


>


not even my 5 have those gauges .anyone have a 6 -are they bigger or heavier then the 5 .


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## jetdawg (Apr 9, 2015)

The 6.0 isn't out yet here but the non-led versions are being superseded by leds. Some kits have changed part numbers to indicate the inclusion of the new style batteries.


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