# Alternative to Kerdi Shower kit



## PrecisionFloors

I've been pretty impressed with Mapei Aqua Defense - used it on the last three showers we've done. I have shifted to doing a hybrid type of install. Fabric on the pan and liquid every where else. Liquid is so much easier for compound corners while I feel better about fabric on the pan and the drain connection. I know the majority of my shower installs wouldn't technically conform to many manufacturers warranty, I know they are bullet proof. I warranty my work first and foremost anyway.


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## ohiohomedoctor

angus242 said:


> TechDawg doesn't need no fancy code books to perform his tests.


Looks like Tech's son has lost some weight.


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## Groutface

PrecisionFloors said:


> I've been pretty impressed with Mapei Aqua Defense - used it on the last three showers we've done. I have shifted to doing a hybrid type of install. Fabric on the pan and liquid every where else. Liquid is so much easier for compound corners while I feel better about fabric on the pan and the drain connection. I know the majority of my shower installs wouldn't technically conform to many manufacturers warranty, I know they are bullet proof. I warranty my work first and foremost anyway.


Like this ? You nailed it....I do the same thing now.









Thumbsup precision!


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## angus242

I do something very similar. However, I use NobleSeal and the NobleSeal Drain Flashing. That way, you can use any drain you want.


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## JohnFRWhipple

Groutface said:


> Like this ? You nailed it....I do the same thing now.
> 
> View attachment 73439
> 
> 
> Thumbsup precision!


That is how I did every single Kerdi Shower but I used Red Guard. I have had zero call backs but also have zero warranty.

If you are going to use Kerdi for the pans use Ardex for your setting material. They also have a paint on membrane and you can go from 5-10 years in the warranty. Not from Schluter but from Ardex.

The Hydro Ban system is slick. Drain to grout by one company. Nice.

Mapei has a flat flashing that works like the Noble Seal Flashing but they do not have the Noble Sealant 150 - so a little Kerdi fix is not a bad thing!

I did not think the Noble pre made shower pans where Honey Comb? I have two of the pre slopes for a regular liner here and they are made from cardboard or something like it.

I heard that the old Kerdi Shower kits had warnings in them that said "Don't kneel on them." Is that true? Does it still say the same thing now? I heard from Ann at Fontile that she's heard of the pans delamating from the plywood subfloor - Plywood can delamante from itself. If I where setting in a Schluter pan I'd double down the plywood, lay some building paper, scratch coat it with Grani and bang in some diamond lath, skim flat on top and then the next day set the pan with Grani rapid. I sure as hell would not place the pan over a single layer of plywood or ship lap with plain modified or non-modifed thin set.


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## Groutface

I've only used the pan once.....it was ok....love the curbs and drain kit though. I always drypack my own pans .


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## PrecisionFloors

Groutface said:


> I've only used the pan once.....it was ok....love the curbs and drain kit though. I always drypack my own pans .


:thumbsup: Same here. The drains and curbs are the cat's ass. The pans are only useful every once in awhile. They do hold up just fine once tiled and everything is dry. They are not however made to withstand traffic for days on end....learned that the hard way on the first one. I usually cut a piece of cbu or plywood to cover them with until I'm ready to set.


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## ROVACON

PrecisionFloors said:


> I've been pretty impressed with Mapei Aqua Defense - used it on the last three showers we've done. I have shifted to doing a hybrid type of install. Fabric on the pan and liquid every where else. Liquid is so much easier for compound corners while I feel better about fabric on the pan and the drain connection. I know the majority of my shower installs wouldn't technically conform to many manufacturers warranty, I know they are bullet proof. I warranty my work first and foremost anyway.


I am doing the same thing. I had a change order on the last one to remove the bullnose and add solid sills. I used liquid to repair around the Kerdi areas of the wall where the membrane cam off during the bullnose removal.

I'll be honest and be the first to say that I like the Schluter trays but prefer to liquify everything else.


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## kevjob

Groutface said:


> Like this ? You nailed it....I do the same thing now.
> 
> View attachment 73439
> 
> 
> Thumbsup precision!


Thats how we do ours now as well. My tile guy loves it. :clap:


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## Eric K

When you are redguarding the corners and seams, do you still mesh tape and mud 1st? Or does the redguard flex and fill any gaps?


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## Groutface

Using the redgaurd as a strengthener as well ,no mud in joints. I've been using a fibatape product called perfect finish for meshtape..its 33% thinner and the wholes are 75% smaller. When doing this method your backerboard joints shouldn't be wider than 1/8 of an inch....thumbsup


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## PrecisionFloors

I actually use Ardex Featherfinish to skim joints. Fiba tape as well. The nice thing about using the Ardex is how smooth you can get it as well as how quickly it dries which is a bonus if you're using liquid to waterproof.


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## Groutface

I'm in the process of doing a couple tests on taping boards right now........for my own brain........just to see what gives you the strongest joint......used just thinset, just redgaurd,thinset and redgaurd,...ill try the feather finish and redgaurd.......no fancy machines, just weight to see how much it takes to break seam.....too much time on my hands I guess.....I've never thought of using feather finish.......good show


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## Tech Dawg

Groutface said:


> I'm in the process of doing a couple tests on taping boards right now........for my own brain........just to see what gives you the strongest joint......used just thinset, just redgaurd,thinset and redgaurd,...ill try the feather finish and redgaurd.......no fancy machines, just weight to see how much it takes to break seam.....too much time on my hands I guess.....I've never thought of using feather finish.......good show


Do a flood test too! :laughing:


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## tang

Tech Dawg said:


> Here's Tech Dawg's field test for foam whiners... :laughing:
> 
> Kerdi curb
> A bath tub platform that I use for skirt protection and standing
> A 2007 Chevy Silverado, ext cab, long bed, Duramax Diesel
> 
> The pictures say it all... I personally don't care for Schluter but its obviously a strong product. That curb was left over from 2 years ago and sitting around. After driving on it, the 3/4" plywood cracked and the 2x4 separated from 2 of the 4 screws.
> The curb did not crack... Only about a 3/16" depression where the wheel was sitting on it for approximately 5 minutes.


A FORD would have CRUSHED that foam!!


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## JohnFRWhipple

Tech Dawg said:


> Do a flood test too! :laughing:


The new Laticrete Drain is getting waterproofed today. Set it into a mud bed yesterday. Going to test the 24 hour cure time of Mapecem Premix and the fast track of the Aqua Defence.

Of course this will be flood tested. Then flow tested for air locks. This picture taken before I tooled the mud bed with my magnesium float and wiped the ABS with a sponge.

I used a slurry coat of Grani Rapid on the back side of the ABS drain and under the Mapecem. I only set this onto a 1/2" sheet of Green EBoard. I'll use this same rig to measure the strength and deflection of 3/4" of mapecem premix.

JW


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## Tech Dawg

tang said:


> A FORD would have CRUSHED that foam!!


I got one of those too :whistling::whistling:

Same test... Didn't collapse or crack at all. It did compress some on each side but the bottom side was on the edge of the driveway so that caused a bit more on the one side 

My Ford is 8,600 lbs...


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## Tech Dawg

...if a potential customer weighs as much as my Ford... I don't.....think..............................................................


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## world llc

better not install one in yo momma's house!

oh snap!


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## StoneTooling

Schluter's system does the job but we have been moving the Laticrete shower system pretty well since it launched. I have been to seminars for both companies and the Laticrete one just seems easier to use.


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## Bajabum

Hi guys, just found this forum and while lurking I ran across this thread and thought I'd add to it because I was looking for an alternative too. I just ordered the kit today and saved a couple hundred dollars to a comparable Schluter kit. These kits are called Pro Advanced and sold through Pro-Source Center http://www.prosourcecenter.com/servlet/the-1772/Pro-Advanced-Ebbe-72/Detail.
BTW I don't do that much tile work especially showers so these kits simplify the work for me but I would like to do a mortar bed and liquid water proofing next time around.


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## angus242

Hell, I can get Kerdi kits WAY cheaper than that :blink:


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## Tech Dawg

That's what I was thinking.


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## Bajabum

angus242 said:


> Hell, I can get Kerdi kits WAY cheaper than that :blink:


WAY cheaper? That's great, I'm always looking for cheaper products. What's your source, if you don't mind sharing Angus?


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## angus242

My local Daltile. Of course, my pricing is matrix meaning the more I buy, the better discount I get.

$20,000+ in 2011 helps my 2012 pricing :clap:


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## Bajabum

angus242 said:


> My local Daltile. Of course, my pricing is matrix meaning the more I buy, the better discount I get.
> 
> $20,000+ in 2011 helps my 2012 pricing :clap:


Hum that's kind of what I thought. So just what do you have to pay for a Schluter 72x72 shower kit?


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## angus242

I believe somewhere around $350.


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## Bajabum

angus242 said:


> I believe somewhere around $350.


Wow that's some discount, too bad we all can't get those prices. For those of us who don't get your discounts the best price for a Schluter kit is $710.00 here: http://www.kitchenbathsupplycenter.com/Products_Detail.php?PID=94&CategoryID=174

And from the same place you can get the Pro-Advanced kit for $589.00. http://www.kitchenbathsupplycenter.com/Products_Detail.php?PID=1772&CategoryID=174

For those of us who aren't able to get volume pricing the Pro-Advanced kit might be a better deal.
Also of interest is that you use modified thinset with these kits instead of the unmodified recommended by Schluter. And the choice of 10 grate finishes vs Schluter's 5.

As I am always looking for better prices I'd love to find a better source for materials that I am able to purchace.


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## CHRenewal

Tech Dawg said:


> This will probably get moved to the Ceramic section by a mod but welcome to CT! :clap:
> Check out Noble Company, Laticrete shower systems and water proofing and other companies like Custom, Bostik and Mapei make various waterproofing products as well... All good stuff cept JDub might stop to bash the new Lati-Drain :laughing: and then this will mostlikely escalate into a full blown waterproof argument of what rules :wallbash:


Schluter Systems Rule!!:laughing:


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## CHRenewal

angus242 said:


> Hell, I can get Kerdi kits WAY cheaper than that :blink:


Me Too!!:thumbsup:


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## Tech Dawg




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## CHRenewal

Here we go...Here is why I like Schluter. Time! I can demo and finish out a shower quicker by 1 to 2 days usually from other systems, especially mud beds. On a 72x72 we can demo, light frame, plumbing, kerdiboard walls, pan, drain, curb and flood test day one. Tile day 2 and urethane grout day 3. Done! Sometimes we even start tiling the walls day one. Savings on labor costs. If plumber holds us up, it costs him. If we hold him up it costs us. Either way we get done in about 2.5 to 3 days. Even though, I haven't had any warranty issues, If you are using a hybrid then all warranty will be on the contractor and not the manufacturer (usually). By using the Schluter systems, then if there is a failure, either we installed improperly and our fault or the product failed. Schluter pays. :thumbup:

(Note: I am looking at the Laticrete and might try this soon):whistling

So as of today: Schluter Rules!!:laughing:


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## Bajabum

I'm not a tile setter by trade but when the opportunity comes along and I think I can do the job I will take it. That said the last time I did a shower I used the Schluter kit and I was happy with the results. My question to the Schuter guys out there is what do you pay for a 72x72 shower kit? If Angus only has to pay $350.00 I think I'm getting screwed by my supplier when they tell me it list for $1000.00 but they will let me have it for $800.00. That's a big discount that doesn't' seem fair.


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## world llc

why use the full kit? pour your own floor and kerdi over it. better yet, kerdi board the walls... youll save some money and still have your kerdi shower.

There are obviously other waterproofing materials and makers available too, the warranty's and installation vary some, but if done correctly do the same thing.

here is a Kerdi shower im getting ready to do in Denville, NJ (Morris County, NJ), soon as the inspections parade through next week.


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## Tech Dawg

I would say for him the price will never matter. Like he said, he will only do the job if he thinks he can do it good... Which means, he will never buy enough to get a steep enough discount for anything to matter.


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## world llc

oh man, i just read through this thread from page 1.....:laughing:


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## Tech Dawg

world llc said:


> oh man, i just read through this thread from page 1.....:laughing:


Yeah.. it was pretty boring, that's why I started running over stuff with my trucks.


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## sycamorebob

Quick question what is the framing method called with the floor joist showing as in the photo above........

THANKS in advance Patrick

never saw it before joining this site


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## jarvis design

sycamorebob said:


> Quick question what is the framing method called with the floor joist showing as in the photo above........
> 
> THANKS in advance Patrick
> 
> never saw it before joining this site


Looks like set up for a barrier free shower...the shower pan looks lower than the bathroom floor


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## world llc

whats the method called? i have no idea....

i just do what others before me have done to successfully build this type (curb-less / barrier free) of shower. there are other methods that involve engineered lumber under the floor ot building up the floor some....


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## Bajabum

Got my shower kit today, two days after ordering it's here! 

The Pro Advanced Custom Shower Kit package includes:
1 Shower Tray, 32" x 60" (pan) with offset drain
Total of 108 SF of Waterproofing Membrane (approx. 39.5" wide x 32' 8" long)
1 - 33' x 5" or 6" Waterproofing Joint Strip,
1 Pro Advanced Drain in ABS or PVC with selection from 10 stunning grate cover choices
1 Grate Puller (Grate is screwless!) and 1 easily accessed integrated hair trap
4 Pre-formed Inside corners
1 Tube of waterproofing sealant for failsafe membrane to drain-flange bond 

For a grand total of $382.12 which includes the shipping. The same size kit made by Schluter would have cost me $600.00 from my local supplier, of course I could have got it for $520.00 from Pro Source. Sure I didn't get a curb but I wanted to build my own curb out of solid material at my custom width. This kit includes a Ebbe adjustable drain and grate which come in 10 different color finishes with a lifetime warranty, Noble Sealant, and Dural Durabase waterproof membrane made in the same factory as Kerdi, and 4 inside corners. 
I like wearing name brand clothes so the money I saved will give me a few more bucks to by Patagonia.


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## Bajabum

angus242 said:


> I believe somewhere around $350.


My supplier says you're full of it. A $1000.00 kit for $350.00 is not even possible, and he wants you to prove it.


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## Tech Dawg

Cool.


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## world llc

Bajabum said:


> Got my shower kit today, two days after ordering it's here!
> 
> The Pro Advanced Custom Shower Kit package includes:
> 1 Shower Tray, 32" x 60" (pan) with offset drain
> Total of 108 SF of Waterproofing Membrane (approx. 39.5" wide x 32' 8" long)
> 1 - 33' x 5" or 6" Waterproofing Joint Strip,
> 1 Pro Advanced Drain in ABS or PVC with selection from 10 stunning grate cover choices
> 1 Grate Puller (Grate is screwless!) and 1 easily accessed integrated hair trap
> 4 Pre-formed Inside corners
> 1 Tube of waterproofing sealant for failsafe membrane to drain-flange bond
> 
> For a grand total of $382.12 which includes the shipping. The same size kit made by Schluter would have cost me $600.00 from my local supplier, of course I could have got it for $520.00 from Pro Source. Sure I didn't get a curb but I wanted to build my own curb out of solid material at my custom width. This kit includes a Ebbe adjustable drain and grate which come in 10 different color finishes with a lifetime warranty, Noble Sealant, and Dural Durabase waterproof membrane made in the same factory as Kerdi, and 4 inside corners.
> I like wearing name brand clothes so the money I saved will give me a few more bucks to by Patagonia.


Good luck with your install :thumbsup: 
I am not familiar with that specific product, but I am sure it installs in a similar fashion. Funny how you say you prefer name brand cloths, but buy an off brand shower system:laughing:

The area where i live (by Morristown, NJ) has a high demand for experienced installers, like myself, and the designers are starting to figure out the benefits of these types of products. '

keep us updated on the progress


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## Bajabum

world llc said:


> Good luck with your install :thumbsup:
> I am not familiar with that specific product, but I am sure it installs in a similar fashion. Funny how you say you prefer name brand cloths, but buy an off brand shower system:laughing:
> 
> The area where i live (by Morristown, NJ) has a high demand for experienced installers, like myself, and the designers are starting to figure out the benefits of these types of products. '
> 
> keep us updated on the progress


Name brands are only good if you can flaunt them. My shower doesn't have a brand name only the time and care I put into it will show through.


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## world llc

Bajabum said:


> Name brands are only good if you can flaunt them. My shower doesn't have a brand name only the time and care I put into it will show through.


you are right, but.... do remember... with folks becoming more educated about the systems out there, they will some times brag about their Schluter Kerdi shower (more commonly referred to as the orange stuff seen on TV home improvement shows), or their Noble/ Freestyle shower, or Laticrete Hydroban shower, or Wedi Shower system......

It is my hope that regardless of the brand product used, my custimers can call it a World shower and brag about my work as much as the product manufacturer....


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## world llc

Bajabum said:


> My supplier says you're full of it. A $1000.00 kit for $350.00 is not even possible, and he wants you to prove it.


I think he meant tree fiddy.....


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## angus242

Bajabum said:


> Got my shower kit today, two days after ordering it's here!
> 
> The Pro Advanced Custom Shower Kit package includes:
> 1 Shower Tray, 32" x 60" (pan) with offset drain
> Total of 108 SF of Waterproofing Membrane (approx. 39.5" wide x 32' 8" long)
> 1 - 33' x 5" or 6" Waterproofing Joint Strip,
> 1 Pro Advanced Drain in ABS or PVC with selection from 10 stunning grate cover choices
> 1 Grate Puller (Grate is screwless!) and 1 easily accessed integrated hair trap
> 4 Pre-formed Inside corners
> 1 Tube of waterproofing sealant for failsafe membrane to drain-flange bond
> 
> For a grand total of $382.12 which includes the shipping. The same size kit made by Schluter would have cost me $600.00 from my local supplier, of course I could have got it for $520.00 from Pro Source. Sure I didn't get a curb but I wanted to build my own curb out of solid material at my custom width. This kit includes a Ebbe adjustable drain and grate which come in 10 different color finishes with a lifetime warranty, Noble Sealant, and Dural Durabase waterproof membrane made in the same factory as Kerdi, and 4 inside corners.
> I like wearing name brand clothes so the money I saved will give me a few more bucks to by Patagonia.



Prove it.....:laughing:
Tell your supplier to suck it. He's all pissed off cause he just got outed for raping people.
My last Schluter kit cost 346.28 + tax.


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## ohiohomedoctor

angus242 said:


> Prove it.....:laughing:
> Tell your supplier to suck it. He's all pissed off cause he just got outed for raping people.
> My last Schluter kit cost 346.28 + tax.


I need a 42"x60". Ill come pick it up.


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## Tech Dawg

angus242 said:


> Prove it.....:laughing:
> Tell your supplier to suck it. He's all pissed off cause he just got outed for raping people.
> My last Schluter kit cost 346.28 + tax.


Cool, so tax brings 'er to tree-fiddy :laughing: I knew there was something magical about that number :whistling:

I bet that dude was all cryin at the supplier... "I got all these new online friends and their getting Schmerdi Kits for 350... " "...is that true...?"

:laughing::lol:


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## ohiohomedoctor

I think I pay $550 for the standard shower kit but that comes with kerdi board and all the fixins.


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## angus242

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I need a 42"x60". Ill come pick it up.


They don't make that size so instead, I can sell you a fancy My Shower Grate Shop square drain, 5 bags of Mapecem Premix, 25 sq ft of NobleSeal TS, a tube of NobleSealant and a gallon of AquaDefense for the same price. 

Now you can make any shaped pan you want!


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## Tech Dawg

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I think I pay $550 for the standard shower kit but that comes with kerdi board and all the fixins.


Yeah, that's the other thing.. Schmerdi has 2 different kits; with and without drain.


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## ohiohomedoctor

angus242 said:


> They don't make that size so instead, I can sell you a fancy My Shower Grate Shop square drain, 5 bags of Mapecem Premix, 25 sq ft of NobleSeal TS, a tube of NobleSealant and a gallon of AquaDefense for the same price.
> 
> Now you can make any shaped pan you want!


Oh the options, what shall I do. :whistling


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## JHC

world llc said:


> you are right, but.... do remember... with folks becoming more educated about the systems out there, they will some times brag about their Schluter Kerdi shower (more commonly referred to as the orange stuff seen on TV home improvement shows), or their Noble/ Freestyle shower, or Laticrete Hydroban shower, or Wedi Shower system......
> 
> It is my hope that regardless of the brand product used, my custimers can call it a World shower and brag about my work as much as the product manufacturer....


Some customers are educated, and like to read about these systems. Others could care less, but the biggest selling factor I have found is the warranties that come with them.


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## world llc

JHC said:


> Some customers are educated, and like to read about these systems. Others could care less, but the biggest selling factor I have found is the warranties that come with them.


Absolutely!

Seems if they are not asking for a specific product, Laticrete with their lifetime waranty on both parts and labor wins out


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## Bajabum

angus242 said:


> Prove it.....:laughing:
> Tell your supplier to suck it. He's all pissed off cause he just got outed for raping people.
> My last Schluter kit cost 346.28 + tax.


Let's see the invoice, then I'd have something creditable to show him.


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## angus242

I don't have an invoice, I have a price list they sent me. That's not gonna "prove" anything as it's an Excel spreadsheet that they'll claim I forged.


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## Bajabum

angus242 said:


> I don't have an invoice, I have a price list they sent me. That's not gonna "prove" anything as it's an Excel spreadsheet that they'll claim I forged.


Just what I thought, you can't prove it.


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## angus242

You calling me a liar?


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