# Screw holes showing



## Five Arrows (Jan 30, 2010)

SheetrockDoc said:


> I heard that brother:thumbup: I fix these issues all the time...the tapers wont come back or admit it's wrong
> 
> Oh well...lessons are better learned through the School of hard knocks, maybe people will figure it out and hire a Pro next time...hmmm, probably not, but it's nice to think about


I experience this all the time with my car. I hate working on cars, but I have this frugal streak that runs deep. It seems like every time I try to do more than changing the oil I end up at the shop anyway with something broken cause I grabbed the hammer to loosen it up... You think I'd learn.


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## SheetrockDoc (Mar 7, 2010)

Five Arrows said:


> I experience this all the time with my car. I hate working on cars, but I have this frugal streak that runs deep. It seems like every time I try to do more than changing the oil I end up at the shop anyway with something broken cause I grabbed the hammer to loosen it up... You think I'd learn.


 
I use to do it as well, but soon I figured out that it costs me more in the long run and takes work from those who are trained to keep me safe


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

A bad taping job is just that. Bad.

It is hard to see the small imperfections when the wall is raw or even when the primer is on because it is so flat.

The taper should come back and fix his shoddy work. 


You paid a pro to have the job done right, if you wanted shoddy work you could have done it yourself :w00t::laughing: (J/K)


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## SheetrockDoc (Mar 7, 2010)

Leo G said:


> A bad taping job is just that. Bad.
> 
> It is hard to see the small imperfections when the wall is raw or even when the primer is on because it is so flat.
> 
> ...


 
Heard that...Bright lights on the wall will show all, but I agree thats why I offer 1 year free maintenence on My workmanship...I charge a little more than the rest, but it pays in the long run :thumbsup:


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## AARC Drywall (May 11, 2008)

The thing to look at here is of course the screw divots. Because everyone is showing, the taper did not do his job properly...he did not check with a light, because you would have seen that, or maybe he did and had the light to direct on the wall, that way there is no shadow. But lets face it guys/gals, we have all made mistakes. I am in no way saying this is a small mistake, but rather he did a poor job, and the problem should have been caught at lamping or at the point of primer....either way someone, or several people screwed up....therefore both parties should split the cost....taper because he did not do his job right, and also the painter for not checking after primer....i find it hard to believe that the divots did not show up prior to finish coat....especially that many screw holes....a whole house full....come on now....someone was cutting corners...and now it bit him in the butt right....
Anyways, regardless....being a boarder and a taper myself, and having several employees, if there is one thing that i learned, it is we all make mistakes. To this magnitude, no its just outright cutting corners. Staring at drywall all day is like snow blindness....you could be looking at a problem and not even know it, but someone at a different angle will see what you missed. Its happened to all of us, but the good ones come back and fix the problem regardless who is at fault.

If it were my company, i would be back straight away to fix the problem, regardless of who did it, and who is to blame...then work the cost out with the painter later on, since we are both at fault.

just my thoughts

j


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## ceilingkicker1 (Mar 12, 2010)

Did you Make sure screws were set correctly and not too deep to break wallboard surface paper? Adding additional finish coats will not solve problem if screws are popped; they will still appear underfilled. Correct popped screws and three-coat/sand/prime these areas.


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## MeatBallDryWall (Aug 28, 2008)

I actually had an incident a couple jobs ago with the screws needing an additional coat(4 coats of thick mud) to cover. I'm using the same screw gun as always. I ALWAYS spot 3 times by hand with thick AP mud & they still showed through a little. You could not tell until the primer hit the walls/ceilings as I walk down everything with a light & it did not show. Now the only thing I can see is the mud is shrinking a lot more then usual for some reason, no matter if it's summer or winter.
I can tell the angles/joints shrink a lot more than normal & need more touchup as we go through. I use AP Murco 1200 for everything & I get it through the SW here locally. Has anyone else had any trouble with abnormally shrinking mud? I haven't changed my mixing/water ratios so I have no clue WTF is going on. I just started spotting them 4 times & problem solved. :blink:


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Unsolved mystery..........That seems to happen sometims. :confused1:


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

Had this same thing on a house I did. Even wondered if it was the primer re-wetting the mud and causing a delayed shrinkage. Or the rock some way was made with more air. I had four coats on the screws and most didn't show until after the paint. And I had a coat of primer on all and sanded, touched up and primer again, then sanded the primer and finish. Then a couple days later they started showing up. Nice little quarter inch dimples. Let it set a week and fixed them again and primed and painted twice. Maybe I wasn't letting it dry good enough.


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

MeatBallDryWall said:


> I actually had an incident a couple jobs ago with the screws needing an additional coat(4 coats of thick mud) to cover. I'm using the same screw gun as always. I ALWAYS spot 3 times by hand with thick AP mud & they still showed through a little. You could not tell until the primer hit the walls/ceilings as I walk down everything with a light & it did not show. Now the only thing I can see is the mud is shrinking a lot more then usual for some reason, no matter if it's summer or winter.
> I can tell the angles/joints shrink a lot more than normal & need more touchup as we go through. I use AP Murco 1200 for everything & I get it through the SW here locally. Has anyone else had any trouble with abnormally shrinking mud? I haven't changed my mixing/water ratios so I have no clue WTF is going on. I just started spotting them 4 times & problem solved. :blink:


Not a mudder by any means, but when taping I usually use the bottom of the mud pan to fill my screw holes. By the time I get to the bottom of the pan the mud has "dryed" out a little more and has less shrinkage.


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## MeatBallDryWall (Aug 28, 2008)

Hey Tim, what kind of mud do you use most often? Its Murco 1200 for taping/bed & sometimes M500 for skim coat. 

arty:


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Tim0282 said:


> Had this same thing on a house I did. Even wondered if it was the primer re-wetting the mud and causing a delayed shrinkage. Or the rock some way was made with more air. I had four coats on the screws and most didn't show until after the paint. And I had a coat of primer on all and sanded, touched up and primer again, then sanded the primer and finish. Then a couple days later they started showing up. Nice little quarter inch dimples. Let it set a week and fixed them again and primed and painted twice. Maybe I wasn't letting it dry good enough.


I agree,something weird happens sometimes with the paint reacting on screw mud spots.


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

I buy Murco by the semi load. All purpose, Lite and Hi-Set. I like Murco. Shrinks less, has less air in their mud and seems to dry a little quicker. At least it skins over quicker. Good mud. Creamy, and runs in the tools great. 
Is it possible there is something on the screws that casuses a bit of a chemical reaction to the mud to cause a delayed shrinkage? Just seems weird.


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## MeatBallDryWall (Aug 28, 2008)

Yeah I like Murco mud too Tim, it's creamy, mixes well & runs good. When hanging you do get that greasy black film all on your hands from the screws so it might have something to do with it. It's probably the chinese putting something on them to sabotage us. :blink:


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

It is most likely because the mud he used, especially on the first coat, was thinned down too much. However it could be because the painter used eggshell, in wet cold conditions,which will make 4 coats shrink. 

Its kinda like, hard to tell without seeing it, but I'd bet it has something to do with "I hired a local who was training a newbie":thumbsup:


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## xtremekustomz (Oct 11, 2006)

I've seen what you are going through. A friend of mine was getting a house built last year and I was helping him do all the flooring. First time through everything was painted and we noticed alot of screw holes and streaks in the joints where a piece of trash had beeen dragged through. I do some drywall work myself so I started going around circling all the places that I could see that needed to be fixed. The tapers came back (they live 2 1/2 hours away from where the house was built) and skimmed a coat of mudd on everything I had circled and didn't sand anything. There were places where they had missed a stud and pulled the screw out and just left the ragged edges of the hole exposed and skimmed over it. The painters came in again and repainted. Drywall still wasn't right. They came back 2 more times. This had caused the contract on the building of the house to be breached by 2 months and the bank was about to increase the interest rate because things had gone longer than they had originally planned so they closed with the drywall not right. The builder actually had the audacity to to say "What do you think everything is going to be perfect?"


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

MeatBallDryWall said:


> I actually had an incident a couple jobs ago with the screws needing an additional coat(4 coats of thick mud) to cover. I'm using the same screw gun as always. I ALWAYS spot 3 times by hand with thick AP mud & they still showed through a little. You could not tell until the primer hit the walls/ceilings as I walk down everything with a light & it did not show. Now the only thing I can see is the mud is shrinking a lot more then usual for some reason, no matter if it's summer or winter.
> I can tell the angles/joints shrink a lot more than normal & need more touchup as we go through. I use AP Murco 1200 for everything & I get it through the SW here locally. Has anyone else had any trouble with abnormally shrinking mud? I haven't changed my mixing/water ratios so I have no clue WTF is going on. I just started spotting them 4 times & problem solved. :blink:


Meatball,,, as the cops say "Be Advised" Some of the newer egg-shell paints, stay wet SO LONG that they will shrink the screws, leaving a divot. You can take my word for it, or check it out yourself,, but some of the new paint formulas they are using today are changing things.

Think about it


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## MeatBallDryWall (Aug 28, 2008)

> Meatball,,, as the cops say "Be Advised" Some of the newer egg-shell paints, stay wet SO LONG that they will shrink the screws, leaving a divot. You can take my word for it, or check it out yourself,, but some of the new paint formulas they are using today are changing things.
> 
> Think about it


OMG now that you mention it Capt the couple jobs that I had them show *WAS* painted with a damn eggshell & semi-gloss paint. WTF are we supposed to do about it? You already know the  painters are going to point the finger of blame towards us of course. :furious:  :furious:


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

Often times the general is pushing the job so hard that the "right way" goes right out the window. 

In a perfect situation, the taper does is thing, then the GC inspects and passes it on to the painter who then inspects/ primes/ inspects and gives the taper a chance to fix his work. 

However, this is rarely the case these days. Most guys are just concerned about "getting their part done" so they can get paid. 

As a painter I have had to work after shoddy tapers who wouldn't fix their work and for GC's who weren't willing to pay me to fix the tapers work. In a situation like that where everyone is just trying to get paid, I gotta get mine too.

If a GC and the other subs don't care, what can I do anyway? Pull my quality warranty out of the contract, get the GC to sign off on it and get on with life.

On a job site the first guy I try to cozy up to is the taper. We make each other look good.

If you are surrounded by others who don't care, watch out for yourself. Set things up so you can throw those under the bus who will not cooperate.:thumbsup:


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

vandyandsons said:


> Often times the general is pushing the job so hard that the "right way" goes right out the window.
> 
> Thats true for all subs
> 
> ...


Peace Bro:clap:


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

The tougher the economy gets, the more helpless dudes seem to get. Nobody seems to be willing to take responsibility or ownership.

The taper blames the GC and his schedule, the painter blames the taper, the GC blames whichever sub isn't there to defend himself.

Some good ole fashioned professional courtesy's would do our industry a lot of good.

.....but, someone always seems to get screwed on the job and all of our self preservation instincts are very strong these days. If i don't watch out for my own interests, nobody else will.....except our benevolent government.:thumbup:

As for me: I always give the taper a chance to fix his work. If he wont, I try to get the GC to make him, if he refuses, I will fix his work on a T&M basis. The GC can then charge the uncooperative taper for my time. 

The subject at hand: screw holes showing.
Taper should have caught it first. If he missed it, the painter should have certainly caught it after his first coat and brought it to the taper/ GC, but he didn't. He wanted to get his check.

True: the taper was incompetent
True: the GC should have done his own inspection prior to turning it over to the painter.

But....if you paint it, you bought it. So the painter is not without some liability here. Taper should go back and fix his screw holes. Painter needs to spot prime and re-roll. It would be a nice gesture for the taper to help him out too.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Capt-Sheetrock said:


> Meatball,,, as the cops say "Be Advised" Some of the newer egg-shell paints, stay wet SO LONG that they will shrink the screws, leaving a divot. You can take my word for it, or check it out yourself,, but some of the new paint formulas they are using today are changing things.
> 
> Think about it


Yeah?
I've got a nice bridge I'll sell you cheap.


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

This should have been seen right after the primer was applied to the ceilings and walls:whistling sounds like someone needs some more years on the job as a Painters Helper, cause if you and your guy can't see screw holes after priming you guys need to get some glasses or flood lights on your hat.:thumbsup: Good Luck but with the paint on you had better get ytourself a gallon can of M&H Ready Patch and you and your helper start spackling those screw holes:laughing:


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

amen brother:thumbsup:


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

Okay guys, I see that the general assuption is that i am BS'ing about the effect of egg-shell on nail holes. 

Fine, continue to feel that way, and continue to blame the drywallers. Neither one is gonna address the problem.

Who was it that siad, "ignorance is bliss" OR its your lie, tell it as big as you want !!!


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

Captain,

I don't think your BS'ing anyone. If you have experienced this than it must be true. 

The only time I have ever had screw holes show is when I tried to cut corners. 

p.s. if this ever happens, good luck convincing the painter, the GC, or the customer that the paint is what caused it!


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

vandyandsons said:


> Captain,
> 
> I don't think your BS'ing anyone. If you have experienced this than it must be true.
> 
> ...


You bet, cause neither the physics
nor the chemistry of it is on your side.


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

neolitic said:


> You bet, cause neither the physics
> nor the chemistry of it is on your side.


You obviously are the go to guy. 
Congrats on haveing the definitive answer to everything


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Capt-Sheetrock said:


> You obviously are the go to guy.


Yup, I'd have to say that he is. He's been at this for a while.

Can you cite a study or three to support your assertion? Or should we just accept your word because you're (maybe) as old as me?


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

Capt,
I have no dout you have run across screw holes, but I don't see how mud that has set and dried how paint would make holes. The taper didn't put enough mud on the wall that's all, cause paint is a decortive sealer, it aint a filler even tho some painters think it is.:laughing:
Also it's the painters jobs to spackle after primer coat is applied, then after the first coat of paint the painter has to pole sand and if there are any holes nic's, dents, they should spackle, spot prime, then apply second coat of finish.
So if the painters didn't do their prep, well I think they should eat it:thumbsup: Fix and repaint their cost.


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

In a dream world, Frank!


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Capt-Sheetrock said:


> You obviously are the go to guy.
> Congrats on haveing the definitive answer to everything


Don't have all the answers,
but in forty years I've heard 
a lot of the lame excuses.
It's the finisher's fault,
or the painter's fault, but
it ain't the *paint's* fault. :thumbsup:


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

Fine, don't take egg-shell seriously. 
Blame it all on the finisher
Assume its someone else fault


Kind of a pattern here....

I hang, finish and paint,,,,,,, but since I'm from the South and talk like Gomer Pyle,,,, what they hell do I know. 

I guess if i was from NYC, I'd know something

Think about it. I have problly seen more drywall and paint than alot of you guys,,, just cause I was doing this since God was a corprol

Next time you run into this problemm,,,, first find out what primer was used and then what kind of paint was used.

I could be wrong,,,, but I'm not !!


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Capt-Sheetrock said:


> Fine, don't take egg-shell seriously.
> Blame it all on the finisher
> Assume its someone else fault
> 
> ...


Why is it then, that this is not
a problem for me?


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

neolitic said:


> Why is it then, that this is not
> a problem for me?


You seem to want to pick a fight about this Neo, or is that Nero

Drywall mud is NOT sealed, you can take a wet cloth and wipe it from the wall.

IF you wet it and LEAVE it wet for a LONG period of time, the mud will do wierd stuff.

I guess the reason you have never come across this problem,,, is you obviously KNOW so much that you never EVER have to check anything out.

Good enough answer for ya ???


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Capt-Sheetrock said:


> You seem to want to pick a fight about this Neo, or is that Nero
> 
> Drywall mud is NOT sealed, you can take a wet cloth and wipe it from the wall.
> 
> ...


I see your problem then.
You don't let your mud dry,
and you don't prime before 
you paint.


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

neolitic said:


> I see your problem then.
> You don't let your mud dry,
> and you don't prime before
> you paint.


Haveing 10,000 more post than anyone else, is no excuse for being a jerk.


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## MeatBallDryWall (Aug 28, 2008)

> In a dream world, Frank!


LOL I 2nd this Frank! Around here the F'n painters will try to just spray the houses (Prime & Finish coats) & NOT backroll & when it all shows blame the Finishers. :furious:



> Why is it then, that this is not
> a problem for me?


Now, It's hard for me to listen to someone who isn't a "Drywall" tradesman making comments like they know WTF they are talking about. I believe you Capt & my comments have NOTHING to do with the original post. I always spot my screws 3 times with THICK mud & they only showed on the 2 jobs that were, #1 painted using a spray rig. #2 Had either eggshell or semi-gloss paint used. Now, if anyone here thinks that mud on the wall won't shrink any further when exposed to moisture for prolonged periods must be on Crack.


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

MeatBallDryWall said:


> LOL I 2nd this Frank! Around here the F'n painters will try to just spray the houses (Prime & Finish coats) & NOT backroll & when it all shows blame the Finishers. :furious:
> 
> Now, It's hard for me to listen to someone who isn't a "Drywall" tradesman making comments like they know WTF they are talking about. I believe you Capt & my comments have NOTHING to do with the original post. I always spot my screws 3 times with THICK mud & they only showed on the 2 jobs that were, #1 painted using a spray rig. #2 Had either eggshell or semi-gloss paint used. Now, if anyone here thinks that mud on the wall won't shrink any further when exposed to moisture for prolonged periods must be on Crack.


well then, being that you are not a painting contractor...what then do you know about paint or painting? can I discount anything you have to say about my primary trade because you are not a "decorative and protective coatings specialist?"

even if a guy used egg shell as his prime coat, it really doesn't take that much longer for it to dry up than a primer anyway... especially over the raw drywall.

honestly, how often does this really happen? often enough to argue over?

if 95 out of 100 jobs don't have this happen, then is it possible that maybe the taper tried to save a step or forget to third coat the screw holes? simple fact of human nature is that no one wants to take ownership of a problem.

Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the Serpent. As a fallen race, it is in our DNA.

if this is really a problem out there for some, it is an isolated problem and certainly not an industry problem.

I think that most tapers can speak pretty intelligently about painting and vice versa. They are sister trades so you can mellow out on the "you don't know WTF you'r talking about" stuff.


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## MeatBallDryWall (Aug 28, 2008)

> well then, being that you are not a painting contractor...what then do you know about paint or painting? can I discount anything you have to say about my primary trade because you are not a "decorative and protective coatings specialist?"


I never stated that I "was" a painter but I "can" paint, can you hang & finish an entire job?


> even if a guy used egg shell as his prime coat, it really doesn't take that much longer for it to dry up than a primer anyway... especially over the raw drywall.


The drywall has nothing to do with it as it will absorb moisture rather quickly it's the MUD that's shrinking, not the drywall. :whistling


> if 95 out of 100 jobs don't have this happen, then is it possible that maybe the taper tried to save a step or forget to third coat the screw holes? simple fact of human nature is that no one wants to take ownership of a problem.


Apparently you have ADD & didn't read my entire post. My statement has NOTHING to do with the original post but my personal experience. I'm sure the original poster on page 1 has a thinned down mud problem. But I have coated screws with 3 I say it again THREE coats of THICK I say it again THICK mud & they still showed through. Now this only happened on jobs that were painted with eggshell & semi-gloss finish coatings.


> you can mellow out on the "you don't know WTF you'r talking about" stuff.


I don't have to mellow out on , if I remember correctly we have freedom of speech. Anyways if the poster of the BS comments was a full time "Painter" or "Drywall" guy maybe it would be OK to speak so arrogantly.


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