# Should I trust my client?



## [email protected] (Mar 27, 2010)

I have just been handed a huge punch-list from one of my client's. I am owed around 10K, which was around 10% of the total job. Its possible to complete the items on this list, but I'm afraid that I wont be paid at the end. Do anyone's clients make the last leg of the job hell just so they don't have to pay?

Thanks,
John


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Are the punch list items valid?

What makes you think they will not pay?

JMHO, you should change your contract so by the time you are nearly done most of what is owed you is paid. All my contracts leave about 5% due at the end.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Do anyone's clients make the last leg of the job hell just so they don't have to pay?


Stay in business long enough, and you'll run into that sooner or later. On the other hand, HE trusted YOU this far, right?

If the punch list is fair, it's stuff you should be doing anyway to complete the job. If you figured your costs right, the final 10% should be "extra" profit you can live without if you have to (though certainly none of us want to).

We can't tell you whether your client is trustworthy, but we can certainly vote for finishing the job right.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Mind sharing some of the major items on this punch list with us?


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## Kgmz (Feb 9, 2007)

Nothing wrong with a punch list, and I help them with one. This way I get it signed off and everyone is happy and no reason for non payment.

Here is PDF of a residential inspection list we use for the customer before and after the punch items have been rectified. I use this in Word .doc format and change it as the needed for the job.

http://www.zenitram-inc.com/Files/InspectionCheckList.pdf


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## [email protected] (Mar 27, 2010)

thank you


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

"Punch List" = Gee Mr. Homeowner, could you please go around and tell me what I messed up on since I obviously don't know how to fix my own work before you see it.

That is a paraphrase of a Finley quote.

Why, on God's green earth, would you even let a punch list on a job exist? You are asking for trouble. You are ASKING for people to find flaws in the job--no--you are giving them a LICENSE to find problems.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg Di said:


> Why, on God's green earth, would you even let a punch list on a job exist? You are asking for trouble. You are ASKING for people to find flaws in the job--no--you are giving them a LICENSE to find problems.


I have no trouble with that whatsoever. If we didn't do the job right, I want to hear about it right now, not from some third party weeks or months down the road.

I CHALLENGE the client to find fault with my work. Why wouldn't you, unless you do sub-par work?


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Tinstaafl said:


> I have no trouble with that whatsoever. If we didn't do the job right, I want to hear about it right now, not from some third party weeks or months down the road.
> 
> I CHALLENGE the client to find fault with my work. Why wouldn't you, unless you do sub-par work?


You are asking for trouble. I know the work is as it should be, but there is no way I can anticipate the potential whackiness of a stranger. That's my point.


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## steves (Feb 8, 2007)

rselectric1 said:


> Mind sharing some of the major items on this punch list with us?


It doesn't matter what's on the list, make them sign another form stating that completion of the list means the job is done as far as payment and warranty is concerned. 

We use a form like that all the time for big GC's and structural inspections. Otherwise they will keep you on a string forever.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

My last client prior to finally having an attorney write my contract was a doosey. He presented a punch list of 4 items which I completed and asked for the check. Instead he presented another punch list with 15 items. We argued a bit. I made him say he would write the check if I completed these items. I did my part and asked for a check, he presented a punch list containing 26 items, among which was a flashlight he claimed was missing.

Bottom line, I lost 3k, incurred some legal expense and came out with a better contract. All monies are due at substantial completion and they can hold back no more than 5% period. I haven't seen a punch list since that d-bag but I wouldn't have to complete it until they owe no more than 5%.

Good Luck
Dave


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

So David, do you have a copy of the contract you use? I would be interested in reading the language.


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## Bulldog1770 (Apr 6, 2010)

Not sure why you would have a punch list unless someone wasnt doing their job or not understanding prints/specs.

A punch list to me is showing that the Owner feels like you didnt complete the project the way they designed it to be done and you "missed" things that they feel you are responsible for... Its all in the details--

One of my pet peeves is when management doesnt give the "super" or foreman a good and updated copy of the specifications for the project...

The only punch list should be made by the foreman when the job is close to closing, the Owner should walk through and smile---anything "more" is a change order and it keeps the contractor respect level HIGH where it should be...


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## modterry (Nov 14, 2008)

*Good Specs solve alot of problems*



Bulldog1770 said:


> Not sure why you would have a punch list unless someone wasnt doing their job or not understanding prints/specs.
> 
> A punch list to me is showing that the Owner feels like you didnt complete the project the way they designed it to be done and you "missed" things that they feel you are responsible for... Its all in the details--
> 
> ...



Love this post. I have been harping on this topic here in posts. We have an extensive set of specs , even have pictures of how the item should look and instructions on how I want the item built. Some of which the customer sees, but more importantly for the staff to see and use to build and install.

2nd set of items in our job notebook is a task list broken down by category.
Even the simplest of task items are in the list.

Subs, at first, had a hard time with the system. When I write our PO /Work Order I include the specs / tasks.

Had one electrician really give me a hard time - explained that's how we work. By the end of the house wiring - he came to me and asked if he could use our list for his crews on other jobs.

I have found that it helps the customer , answers many questions ahead of time.

Each staff person is on the same page as the customer , management, accounting and the other staff.

Terry


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## Bulldog1770 (Apr 6, 2010)

modterry said:


> Love this post. I have been harping on this topic here in posts. We have an extensive set of specs , even have pictures of how the item should look and instructions on how I want the item built. Some of which the customer sees, but more importantly for the staff to see and use to build and install.
> 
> 2nd set of items in our job notebook is a task list broken down by category.
> Even the simplest of task items are in the list.
> ...


Sounds like you have it covered.. Good work, not very familiar with residential.. Always have been in commercial and industrial.. Good job! :thumbup:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Greg Di said:


> I know the work is as it should be, but there is no way I can anticipate the potential whackiness of a stranger.


I fully understand, but to be blunt, that's a risk of being in business that has virtually nothing to do with whether you "allow" a client punch list.

If you grab the check and run without fully resolving any errors and omissions, whether real or perceived (and it can happen to the best of us), you are practically guaranteeing bad word of mouth publicity. 

Part of the feedback I often receive from new customers is that they heard specifically that I won't leave a job until all issues are completely resolved. That's been a winning formula for me.

As for the rare nut job, you are never going to win. Punch list or not, ironclad contract or not, they're never going to be happy. Fortunately, those who hear their poison generally know that they're wackos and give little weight to it. :thumbsup:


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## Bulldog1770 (Apr 6, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> I fully understand, but to be blunt, that's a risk of being in business that has virtually nothing to do with whether you "allow" a client punch list.
> 
> If you grab the check and run without fully resolving any errors and omissions, whether real or perceived (and it can happen to the best of us), you are practically guaranteeing bad word of mouth publicity.
> 
> ...


Or you can just do State and federal jobs and reputation means nada--lowest bidder gets the job--- I kind of like it that way--no kissing up--everything is a contract and no "hey can ya just do this" type BS---if its on the prints and in the specs its done; anything else is a change order..You are paid on the date that is outlined in the specs, you bill on the date outlined in the specs and you go on your merry way....


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I have just been handed a huge punch-list from one of my client's. I am owed around 10K, which was around 10% of the total job. Its possible to complete the items on this list, but I'm afraid that I wont be paid at the end. Do anyone's clients make the last leg of the job hell just so they don't have to pay?
> 
> Thanks,
> John


Do the punchlist and try to collect your money, if he keeps coming up with a never ending punch list, let him know you will do what you can to make him happy but you need to be paid, if he is being rediculous with the punch list, let him know he is being too picky, but do what you can to make him happy.

This sounds like a large job, so he may have some legitmate issues.

What does the contract say about final payment, when is it due?

in the future use the term for the final payment, Due Upon Substantial Completion.

If the guy wants to hold 10% of the final amount due on a punch list, that is one thing, I wouldn't let him hold 10% of the job total for a punch list.

The longer the guy has your money, the less likely he will be inclined to pay you your money.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> Or you can just do State and federal jobs and reputation means nada--lowest bidder gets the job--- I kind of like it that way--no kissing up--everything is a contract and no "hey can ya just do this" type BS---if its on the prints and in the specs its done; anything else is a change order..*You are paid on the date that is outlined in the specs*, you bill on the date outlined in the specs and you go on your merry way....


Have you done a federal job lately?


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## Bulldog1770 (Apr 6, 2010)

mics_54 said:


> Have you done a federal job lately?


Previous job list was with NJDOT and PADOT along with 3 water treatment plants in Jersey with 2 in Philly... :thumbup:


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