# ARXX ICF structure vs. traditional framing



## mravenzemla (Feb 9, 2011)

Hi,

I'm looking into a new project that I may be undertaking, it would be a contemporary house on a very thin lot (18 feet wide). The house itself would be about 13 feet wide, and since there's a very high height restriction for the neighbourhood we'd be going straight up and straight back. It would be a fairly straightforward build and so I'm considering using the ARXX system. 
I would really like to find out from someone who has done both traditional framing and used the ARXX system to build the exterior walls of a house, and would like to know your impressions of the ICF system, whether it's more costly or time-consuming to use over traditional wood stud framing.
I'm most interested in cost. This project would be on a strict budget and while I appreciate the energy efficiency of ICF walls, cost takes precedence. Any information or tips is appreciated.


----------



## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Since you did not provide your location, anything offered is just a guess.

An ICF system will be more costly to build than a cheap, stick-frame using wood or steel studs. It will also need more experience to do properly if this is your first. It is not a simple as a DIY project by stacking up lightweight forms and just dumping in concrete if you are responsible for the whole project.

There are other ICF systems with better support and back-up than ARRX if you are serious about using the system long term.

Since you are facing a the proverbial "strict budget" presented, if you use a new system for a cost conscious owner you will be more expensive than stick systems or just lose money because of inexperience if it is a price fight instead of a value sell.

It is an easy sell if you understand the benefits.


----------



## mravenzemla (Feb 9, 2011)

concretemasonry said:


> Since you did not provide your location, anything offered is just a guess.
> 
> An ICF system will be more costly to build than a cheap, stick-frame using wood or steel studs. It will also need more experience to do properly if this is your first. It is not a simple as a DIY project by stacking up lightweight forms and just dumping in concrete if you are responsible for the whole project.
> 
> ...


I'm located in Toronto, Ontario. This house would be a speculative build and so I know the benefits would appear on the sales sheet, however I don't want it to eat up so much of my budget that I end up decreasing my profit margin significantly. 

The property is inexpensive but the price cap for the neighborhood is what's determining the strict budget. I say strict in the context of our company's previous projects, in the past we've done more high end houses with larger margins. This project would really be something I'd be cutting my teeth on as it's my father's company and I'd be taking point for the first time.

One other thing I'm worried about is the thickness of the ARXX system once it's installed. Since I'm dealing with such a narrow lot, I'd like to maintain as much interior space as possible while still providing a highly efficient dwelling. 

My head carpenter has experience with ARXX, however this would be a very uncomplicated structure, basically 50'x13' with no jogs or 45s, just 4 90 degree corners and walls roughly 30' above grade. A rather basic box, can't imagine there being too much trouble with a learning curve.

I know of the LOGIX brand name, can you suggest others?


----------



## NICKPAUS (May 11, 2008)

With that narrow of a lot I would stick frame it. The ARXX walls will take up an extra foot of your useable space. I imagine lumber is much cheaper their as well. The biggest cost we have with ARXX is the shipment cost. If their is a local plant that would be another story. I just got blueprints for my next ARXX project 2 new houses ground up will post pics when we start. Gotta go through hell first.... I mean plan check.


----------



## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Go with SIP panels, and forget the ICF is budget is your fist concern. That would not be the project to learn on.


----------



## green bean (Feb 14, 2011)

For brands I do believe that Integraspec is in the Toronto area.
Small projects in my opinion are great opportunities to get the ICF feel of things.
I won't disagree that the upfront cost is higher with ICF but as you move along on the project, you'll find this cost will be offset by time(since it is money). By cutting out other trades in a gc point of view does meen less headaches doesn't it? 
Since we've been doing ICF more work was available for our employees, thus keeping them around longer and satisfied! Not having to go and find new labour is a big plus for us.


----------



## Old Truck (Apr 19, 2010)

Before I went on my own we would build custom houses with nudura icf it has benefits over arrxxwall imo (yes we used it before boss got po'd at them). I believe one supplier is in Orangeville.The same plumber/elec. contractor has been used for years on these houses and they claim their install costs are higher for icf as well.Unless you have a customer willing to pay the extra costs and your size issue stick with traditional framing.That being said you could do the foundation icf then regular framing above it , we did that once with a narrow lakefront lot. Just remembered about that and it gives you some experience with a new system


----------



## rallen (Sep 19, 2010)

ICF is more expensive than stick framing.


----------



## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

No question it is more expensive, but many people appreciate the value. Soon the contractors will get the cost down a bit.


----------

