# Wire splice?



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Philament said:


> There was an episode of This Old House where they toured Ted Benson's timber frame shop where they build all the walls modularly and they used these non-metalic sheathed connectors to prewire the whole house. Not sure if it's applicable in your area, but I had never seen/heard of them before.
> 
> It's at 18:44 of the following video
> https://youtu.be/l8ePHc5oALU?t=1123


These is a CSA approved version, it's a IDC on both sides and then they click together.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

So what happens when you find a concealed box on a job?

For example, you're adding a recessed light and when you remove the existing one, you discover an additional box up in the ceiling that's supplying your light? Pretend you don't see it and just continue?

Or you're replace a damaged ceiling and when you pull the old one down, same discovery....and you can't just move it to be flush with the ceiling...then what?

Or you're replacing a vent hood, and presto...there's a hidden metal box back there, too. Just wondering in general what you guys do.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Put it in a proper box, leave an opening in the wall / ceiling and cover it with a return air register.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

MarkJames said:


> So what happens when you find a concealed box on a job?
> 
> For example, you're adding a recessed light and when you remove the existing one, you discover an additional box up in the ceiling that's supplying your light? Pretend you don't see it and just continue?
> 
> ...


If it's behind a recessed light it's considered accessible here.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Put it in a proper box, leave an opening in the wall / ceiling and cover it with a return air register.


Or something like this. http://www.oatey.com/products/rough-in-products/access-panel/access-panel

They come in many sizes. Just cut the drywall out to the dimensions and glue them in. You can get them at any box store.:thumbsup:


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

MarkJames said:


> So what happens when you find a concealed box on a job?
> 
> For example, you're adding a recessed light and when you remove the existing one, you discover an additional box up in the ceiling that's supplying your light? Pretend you don't see it and just continue?
> 
> ...


Just went through this. Installing 2 new recessed lights. Was going to Greenfield into the existing ceiling junction box. Customer did not want the box in the ceiling with a cover. Ceiling removed, walls opened, EMT routed to the wall outlets, pulled new wire, drywall, tape, prime, paint.

Easy--peasy. 

Tom


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> Customer did not want the box in the ceiling with a cover. Ceiling removed, walls opened, EMT routed to the wall outlets, pulled new wire, drywall, tape, prime, paint.
> 
> Easy--peasy.
> 
> Tom


Yep, happens on nearly every job for me. Once they get the price for pulling the ceiling and replacing it, you separate the men from the boys.

Most opt to have it pulled and do it right in my case. But at least there is an alternative to offer to save money. This is my go to blank up since it's really hard to spot unless you're looking for it. The metal LIPPED Mulberry blank up.

https://www.gexpro.com/ceiling-boxe...at-5-2-screw-for-4-octagon-box/product/125852

The ones without the lip or the plastic ones look like dog crap.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Same cover I use. I put one in their laundry room, they did not one in their family room.

Tom


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

You guys are giving easy examples. Sometimes you just can't reroute it without opening up a whole bunch of stuff they insist they won't pay extra to have you do. Then what?

Btw, is it still accessible if somebody down the road won't know where to find it? 

How about a box tucked behind a medicine cabinet (removable with 4 screws)? Kosher or not?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

rselectric1 said:


> Or something like this. http://www.oatey.com/products/rough-in-products/access-panel/access-panel
> 
> They come in many sizes. Just cut the drywall out to the dimensions and glue them in. You can get them at any box store.:thumbsup:


I always wish there were more sizes and they looked better. Ugly except for basements, closets and utility rooms. (paint doesn't cut it)


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

MarkJames said:


> You guys are giving easy examples. Sometimes you just can't reroute it without opening up a whole bunch of stuff they insist they won't pay extra to have you do. Then what?
> 
> Btw, is it still accessible if somebody down the road won't know where to find it?
> 
> How about a box tucked behind a medicine cabinet (removable with 4 screws)? Kosher or not?


The job is permitted. If the inspector won't approve the install the customer has to pay to make it compliant. 

They don't want to pay, I don't do the job.

Depends on how you interpret "Accessible". I believe if the medicine cabinet can be removed without damaging the structure you're good. If you have to damage the structure, not good. 

http://nfpa.typepad.com/files/70-14article100.pdf

Tom


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

MarkJames said:


> Btw, is it still accessible if somebody down the road won't know where to find it?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> How about a box tucked behind a medicine cabinet (removable with 4 screws)? Kosher or not?


IMO, no - the cabinet winds up being caulked in over time. You can replace the back panel so you can have access, though.


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## C'est Moi (Jun 6, 2015)

Agility said:


> My electrician recently showed me these. Passes code here. Blew my mind!


Not sure that is done per code.... You can't just use them anywhere. Here is the section in the NEC




> 334.30(C) Wiring Device Without a Separate Outlet Box. A
> wiring device identified for the use, without a separate outlet
> box, and incorporating an integral cable clamp shall be
> permitted where the cable is secured in place at intervals
> ...


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

hdavis said:


> IMO, no - the cabinet winds up being caulked in over time. You can replace the back panel so you can have access, though.


I've never seen or heard of a caulked in medicine cabinet.

Tom


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> I've never seen or heard of a caulked in medicine cabinet.
> 
> Tom


You've never removed one where someone had caulked where it meets the wall? Not too uncommon around here.


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## C'est Moi (Jun 6, 2015)

MarkJames said:


> You've never removed one where someone had caulked where it meets the wall? Not too uncommon around here.



If the wall is plumb there should be no reason to caulk it in however I could see where that could be an issue on plaster walls and older homes


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Plumb is one thing. _Flat_ is something else.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

And installed into walls that are textured. Nearly every medicine cabinet I've seen around here/and installed gets caulked.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

MarkJames said:


> You've never removed one where someone had caulked where it meets the wall? Not too uncommon around here.


Not once---ever. 

Tom


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> Not once---ever.
> 
> Tom


I've seen em caulked here, heck mine at home is caulked.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> I've never seen or heard of a caulked in medicine cabinet.
> 
> Tom


I see painters do it all the time on repaints. Not good ones, mind you, but still painters. Caulk everything....


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

Everything is stain grade oak where Tom lives.

Ok, not everything... but it's kinda like saying everything is paint grade here, it's almost true.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Even leaving caulk aside, multiple layers of paint can make it a bit messy to remove anything from a wall. Then you caulk it when putting it back. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Even leaving caulk aside, multiple layers of paint can make it a bit messy to remove anything from a wall. Then you caulk it when putting it back. :laughing:


You just install a bigger cabinet. :whistling


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

You guys are sloppy with medicine cabinets, I guess. Everyone knows you pull the old, scrape the ridge, skim, and set the new one in the wet mud.


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## P42003 (Jun 15, 2016)

I was under a modular home today treating for termites, and where the two halves of the home met in the middle, there were several of these non-metallic junctions to connect the NM cable, I assume to connect the circuits across the center divide though I'm not positive (just that they were in that direct midline). I wished I had taken a picture. At first viewing I wasn't sure why they were used, but when I got home and saw this thread, it became obvious that it was because the home was in two halves. This seems like a good use for them as they are more water/moisture proof than a standard steel junction box in a dirt crawlspace.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. :whistling


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

Question for...well anyone really, but 480 is who came to mind first (no offense to anyone else  )

Leaving the special (modular home type) connectors aside, do splices have to be "accessible" or "readily accessible", per latest NEC? And don't those definitions vary, basically, by the "use of tools" vs. "no tools necessary"?

I know (I think I know anyway) that GFCIs have to be "readily accessible"...meaning not so high you need a ladder and not so buried you need tools to get to it.

But what about splices? I would assume that since what I normally see are standard boxes with blank covers (that require a screwdriver), that "accessible" is all that is required. Yes?

I only ask because of the medicine cabinet discussion (only 4 screws to remove, etc.). 

Since I'm practically answering my own question, I guess I'll throw out what I think is legal. I'd say that as long as removing the medicine cabinet didn't cause any damage (like it would if it was caulked, as mentioned) then that would be legal.

Agree?....Disagree?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

What I think is not relevant. It's what the inspector thinks.


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