# vinyl fence installation



## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

orionkf said:


> Have you ever encountered posts w/ the conc above grade? (and sloping away from the post, of course.) This is the way I was taught.
> 
> And actually, cedar seems to be just as suseptible. I always thought that it was because of the dirt surrounding the posts.
> 
> What kind of warranty do fences usually get?



Sure, - - the concrete above grade is just fine (probably even better), - - it just doesn't look as good as the grass, that's all. 

Yes, the soil is part of it's succeptibility, it's holding moisture in and air out.

I don't know what kind of warranty fences usually get, - - I'm not a fence guy, - - I do all home improvements. My experience with posts in the ground is more with decks than with fencing. Most of my decks are with a 'continuous' post (and rail) system.


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Tom R said:


> And remember that the 'standard' PT posts sold at the big box stores are only pressurized at .25 (pounds per cubic foot), - - whereas 'ground-contact' PT posts need to be pressurized at .40


Great point, and also is what I am talking about that most fence contractors don't do anything in regard to longevity, nor are most homeowner willing to worry about the life of a fence beyond their use of it.

99% of what we see around here is cedar and not PT.

If you want the ultimate. Just do metal posts in cement. End of story, all done, nothing left to do but wait for the pickets to rot off before the post ever will. Good luck finding a homeowner who will do it though. Even though in proportion the cost of the metal posts over wood aren't that high when you consider that they should last for what? 50-100 years? What's that, like 5-6 new fences? If you don't know what I'm talking about these are not round posts like the kind you see for a metal fence. You screw a picket on them and they disapear and the entire fence looks like it is made of cedar. :Thumbs:


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

PS I would recommend no grass around the fence post, why introduce a moisture retaining sponge right at ground level to creat the weakness of rot that is the problem with every fence post. 

Two fence posts in the ground one with rot at ground level and one rotting under ground - the one rotting under ground will out live the one rotting at ground level by 10 years. All it takes is one stiff wind and SNAP goes the one rotting at ground level. 

Wind and rot are the killers of posts. That wind bending the post back and forth, back and forth is what leads to post failure.

In regard to warranties - I've never heard of anybody warranting a fence beyond a year.


----------



## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

A test done on the first PT wood was done by burying it under a swamp in Louisiana, - - it was pulled out 32 years later, - - and was still in 'good' condition, - - but that's because it was completely underground, - - once it's even partially above ground (and oxygen is introduced) it will rot much sooner than that. The 'weak' point is targeted right at grade level, - - because that's where the oxygen 'differential' lies. And sure, - - the wind will factor in on that weak point.


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Tom, isn't that what I said?


----------



## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

*ideas?*



Mike Finley said:


> PS I would recommend no grass around the fence post, why introduce a moisture retaining sponge right at ground level to creat the weakness of rot that is the problem with every fence post.


I built a PT privacy fence around my backyard about 8 years ago - about 300 feet total. It varies in height, depending on the slope of the ground, from 5 feet to almost 7 feet. Post holes were dug to a depth of 42" whenever possible (lots of rocks encountered) and none were shallower than 36". Every post was set on gravel and subsequently backfilled with concrete to ground level.

A couple of days ago, while looking for a break in my invisible dog fence, I noticed that the concrete at several posts is now exposed to roughly a 1/2" below the top of the concrete. I don't discern any substantial deflection along the top of the fenceline (the fence line runs straight from corner to corner throughout the yard). Do you think that frost heave is bringing the posts out of the ground or is erosion a more likely cause of the exposure?

Also, I noted the discussion about gravel backfill. I opted for concrete backfill because the soil is primarily hard, wet, clay with quartz fragments that doesn't drain at all. Putting gravel around the post seemed to me much like sitting each post in a bucket of water. With my soil its not even clear to me that gravel under the post is a good thing but rather just "the way it's always done". Do you guys think that soil condition is anything to consider from job to job or is it something that probably doesn't matter at all?


----------



## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> Tom, isn't that what I said?


Yes, it is, Mike, - - but I wanted to say it too!

Tag, - - you're 'it'. :cheesygri


----------



## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

PipeGuy said:


> A couple of days ago, while looking for a break in my invisible dog fence, I noticed that the concrete at several posts is now exposed to roughly a 1/2" below the top of the concrete. I don't discern any substantial deflection along the top of the fenceline (the fence line runs straight from corner to corner throughout the yard). Do you think that frost heave is bringing the posts out of the ground or is erosion a more likely cause of the exposure?
> 
> Also, I noted the discussion about gravel backfill. I opted for concrete backfill because the soil is primarily hard, wet, clay with quartz fragments that doesn't drain at all. Putting gravel around the post seemed to me much like sitting each post in a bucket of water. With my soil its not even clear to me that gravel under the post is a good thing but rather just "the way it's always done". Do you guys think that soil condition is anything to consider from job to job or is it something that probably doesn't matter at all?



I would say it's the frost heave, - - the sides of the concrete 'conformed' to the rough edges of the hole, - - and gave the frozen ground a place to 'grab and lift', - - which demonstrates one of the reasons why sonotubes are so handy (not that they would normally be used, - - but they would prevent that problem). Anyway, I doubt if they'll lift much more than they already have.

Different methods for different soils and conditions would probably make perfect sense, - - but let's face it, - - not likely to happen in this day and age of "Who's the Cheapest"?


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Tom - good, wasn't trying to be a smart-ass, just wasn't sure if you were in agreement or saying something a bit different. The grade level thing is what I meant by not introducing a ring of grass and soil which will keep it wet at grade level. The fence companies we have around here are so big that they just employ all spanish speaking subs who wham, bam, thank you mam every new cedar privacy fence they put in. No thoughts about doing it to last, that's for sure.


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Pipeguy, might also be the wooden posts expanding due to being wet down there. When wood expands it does so greatly in proportion along it's long fiber direction which would make your posts grow. But 1/2 inch is a lot, I think I am reaching, unless it a bunch of shrink, expand cycles inching it up?

I wish that worked on the human body though, you could never get me out of the hot tub!

Soil condition is always a factor, but since soil conditions are pretty consistant usually in a geographic area the soil condition effects the overall typical local market methods used more than effecting it job to job. We have clay soil here, but 3 1/2 hours away in Nebraska it is all sand. You are going to have to do things differently between the two places. Here you can do the ultimate and just set your posts in only gravel, no cement at all, but in Nebraska the posts would fall over.


----------



## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Here's an interesting story.

A guy I've been buddies with for about 5 years now, - - bought a new house in a new neighborhood about 7 years ago, - - several of his DIY neighbors put up their own wooden fences (privacy, shadow-box, etc.).

Well my buddy, Fred, - - decides he wants a fence, too, - - but he wasn't confident enough to install it himself, - - so he calls in a 'pro' (fence guy out of the newspaper), - - Fred goes to work, - - the guy installs the fence, gets paid, end of story, right?

Two years later (right around when I met Fred), - - there's a real bad windstorm, - - Fred tells me 'his' is the only fence that fell, - - well, although the 'pro' fence guy tried and tried to avoid him, - - Fred finally made him fix it.

Oh, yeah, - - remember when I mentioned that the DIY fences (that stood in the wind) were all 'wooden', - - well, Fred's fence was FRIKKIN' chain link. Yes, you heard me right, - - CHAIN LINK!! Un-frikkin-believable!!


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Damn, that must have been one hell of a shoddy job and a hell of a wind! Reminds me how on a sail boat in powerful enough winds the bare mast can drive it.


----------



## orionkf (Apr 7, 2005)

Tom R said:


> I would say it's the frost heave, - - the sides of the concrete 'conformed' to the rough edges of the hole, - - and gave the frozen ground a place to 'grab and lift', - - which demonstrates one of the reasons why sonotubes are so handy (not that they would normally be used, - - but they would prevent that problem). Anyway, I doubt if they'll lift much more than they already have.
> 
> Different methods for different soils and conditions would probably make perfect sense, - - but let's face it, - - not likely to happen in this day and age of "Who's the Cheapest"?




Instead of sonotube, what I do is slightly flare the bottom of the hole, aka "belling". Frost heave isn't that big of a problem here in South IL, but since I bring the concrete above grade, I figure the few extra cents of concrete is worth the piece of mind.


Orion


----------



## Guest (Feb 6, 2006)

any fence contractors out there? i build fences in the houston area and was hoping i had some brethren in here for some questions to be answered...


----------



## bcf (Mar 20, 2006)

Just joined texasfence. Been installing fences for 6 years now. Always on the look out for more fencers to chat with.


----------



## acme const. (Mar 26, 2006)

trying to get 20 ims


----------



## fletch (Apr 7, 2006)

Bufftech has a installation guide on it's website. You can find this online.
I am a fence contractor in NY. I am also a Bufftech dealer. The best way to install posts is using a "wet-mix" concrete. For a 5" x 5" posts we drill a 12" hole about 36" to 42" deep. A good deep foundation will mean a long lasting fence. Pour concrete about half way up. Once the concrete is in the hole slide your post into it. This will ensure concrete gets inside the post. In our expierience this is a key to longevity. DO NOT fill the entire post with concrete, this will lead to the post cracking when the weather changes. The vinyl will expand and contract. You can use aluminum stiffeners when installing gates. Do not use steel this will rust eventually and leak out on your maintenance free fence. You can find Bufftech vinyl very cheap online. Try going to Vinyl Fence Supply. They ship your order for free if you buy at least 2000 dollars worth, which is not hard to do.:clap: :no:


----------



## fletch (Apr 7, 2006)

wet mix concrete means mixed in a mixer with the right amount of water. Not dry mix tamped in the hole with ground water used to cure concrete:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


----------



## Deke (May 2, 2012)

When I built my fence i dipped the posts, just the below grade portion in tar and set them in concrete, my hope is that it would prevent rot, any thoughts on that?


----------



## 1st (9 mo ago)

If its your first time with Vinyl Id use dry concrete, just for mistakes I went through...


----------



## 1st (9 mo ago)

I worried though there is water inside the post still should I feel them with concrete? or dirt?


----------



## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

1st said:


> I worried though there is water inside the post still should I feel them with concrete? or dirt?


If they could feel anything they would probably prefer human hands in a quick up and down motion.


----------

