# Code question - gas line - idiot inspector.



## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

The TSSA controls it here, it's health and safety. I refer back to previous comment I made, know which fights to pick, as this ain't one of them, your in a small town and pissing off the wrong guy, the guy who can make or break you on projects.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

KermieB said:


> You're not answering the question.
> 
> I didn't ask "how far should a water heater be from combustibles" I asked how far should a 5/8" gas line be from an exhaust vent (in this case, from a water heater)


I didn't mean HW heater itself, but rather the smoke pipe. He's probably considering the gas line as "combustibles" and therefore the proper clearance would be required.

Keep in mind it's usually appliance specific and different grades and sizes of smoke pipe, e.g. type L, B or single wall all have UL listing which dictates the clearance.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

BTW,...regarding smokes and CO, the locals around here require them for remodel permits greater than X sg ft and will let you use battery type in retrofits.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Kermie..... Not exactly on your point....but maybe applicable to a degree.....

If I remember right, this is Cali 2011, which would be IBC 2010..... but any current reference to IRC should be around the same section number.

SECTION 3403 ADDITIONS 

3403.1 General. Additions to any building or structure shall comply with the requirements of this code for new construction. Alterations to the existing building or structure shall be made to ensure that the existing building or structure together with the addition are no less conforming with the provisions of this code than the existing building or structure was prior to the addition. An existing building together with its additions shall comply with the height and area provisions of Chapter 5.

SECTION 3404 ALTERATIONS 

3404.1 General. Except as provided by Section 3401.4 or this section, alterations to any building or structure shall comply with the requirements of the code for new construction. Alterations shall be such that the existing building or structure is no less complying with the provisions of this code than the existing building or structure was prior to the alteration. 

Exceptions: 
1. An existing stairway shall not be required to comply with the requirements of Section 1009 where the existing space and construction does not allow a reduction in pitch or slope.
2. Handrails otherwise required to comply with Section 1009.12 shall not be required to comply with the requirements of Section 1012.6 regarding full extension of the handrails where such extensions would be hazardous due to plan configuration.

SECTION 3405 REPAIRS 

3405.1 General. Buildings and structures, and parts thereof, shall be repaired in compliance with this section and Section 3401.2. Work on nondamaged components that is necessary for the required repair of damaged components shall be considered part of the repair and shall not be subject to the requirements for alterations in this chapter. Routine maintenance required by Section 3401.2, ordinary repairs exempt from permit in accordance with Section 105.2, and abatement of wear due to normal service conditions shall not be subject to the requirements for repairs in this section.


Good luck

Peter


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Demand a review by the states inspection board, it usually straightens these self important inspectors right up.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Demand a review by the states inspection board, it usually straightens these self important inspectors right up.


Is that a state specific thing.... never heard of that option Killer.

We've gone directly to the AHJ, but I never knew there was a court of higher authority at the state level.

TIA


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## KermieB (Jul 27, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Kermie..... Not exactly on your point....but maybe applicable to a degree.....


Thanks for the info Peter.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

When I have a confusing or conflicting code question I call the State for clarity. Here its the DCA department of community affairs.


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## KermieB (Jul 27, 2012)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> Demand a review by the states inspection board, it usually straightens these self important inspectors right up.


Yea, I started looking up the South Carolina grievance protocol. I know the City Manager who is his boss and I'll take it to him first and it will get resolved. It just chaps my butt that he decided to get into a pissing contest with me and he doesn't have any bullets. I asked him point blank. "How much separation will make you happy." I've dealt with these guys before. Just ask what they want and give it to them. If they sign off on it, then it now belongs to them. But, no, he said it wasn't his job to tell me that, so he started this.

He's a retired fireman, no, not a fire marshal, just a run of the mill fireman, and I have no idea why they hired him.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> Google
> 
> Snider Ave Toronto TSSA
> 
> it's the first article that comes up


The Snider issue seems to be about a roof and a chimney in 1995. Still nothing about your mythical smoke detectors because you changed a receptacle


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Tom M said:


> When I have a confusing or conflicting code question I call the State for clarity. Here its the DCA department of community affairs.


That is one of the few things good about our government, the DCA actually answers the phone and gives you the answer to your question. They also tell you if the inspector still gives you trouble he should call the DCA.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Anti-wingnut said:


> The Snider issue seems to be about a roof and a chimney in 1995. Still nothing about your mythical smoke detectors because you changed a receptacle


OBC 1986
Fire code 6.3.3.5.(1)

And if you really want or need to, come pull a permit, it's stamped on your drawings

The Snider article was to show you how stringent our regulations are here.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

> 6.3.3.5. (1) When smoke alarms are being replaced, the installation shall not reduce the level of detection required by
> (a) the Building Code in effect at the time of construction of the dwelling unit, or
> (b) municipal by-laws in effect before this Subsection came into force, whichever is applicable.


Please explain how that forces you to install hardwired smoke detectors when you replace a receptacle?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Please explain how that forces you to install hardwired smoke detectors when you replace a receptacle?


You don't I answered that.

Electrical code in Ontario really isn't that strict relative to some states/cities, for the most part it is pretty similar.

TSSA is just completely wacko.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> You don't I answered that


English please?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> English please?


You don't need to wire smoke detectors if you change an outlet.

I answered that in an earlier post.

Did I fvcking stutter?


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Did I fvcking stutter?


Just such a poor sentence I had no idea of what you were saying. A stutter would have been an improvement, cause at least I would have heard you twice.

So the claims of the Chris Johnson are exaggerated?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Just such a poor sentence I had no idea of what you were saying. A stutter would have been an improvement, cause at least I would have heard you twice.
> 
> So the claims of the Chris Johnson are exaggerated?


Yes.

You are correct, I should have used a comma.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Homey simply forgot a period...editorially speaking.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Kermie, if you are going to the inspectors supervisors, I would verify what book they are using. I would think the international fuel gas code would be a good. But, if they go by international residential code, sobeit. At some point, they have to announce what book they use.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

No they are not exaggerated, by law you need to pull a permit to work on any electrical, does it always happen - no. If the permit is pulled part of the permit whether it's in the scope of work or not is to follow health and safety to install smoke detectors. It's pretty simple, 

Your state may not require it, it's something we have here. We also have something in our electrical code, and don't ask me where it's written, but essentially if it's had a motor/appliance it has to be on it's own circuit. I.e. Washing machine, fridge, furnace, all on their own and nothing can run off of them.

Our smoke detectors are suppose to be dedicated circuit too, most inspectors don't enforce that one, most encourage it to be tied in with something like a hallway light, chances are if you shut that breaker off due to your wife's cooking skills you will notice the light not working before you go to bed and flip the breaker back on.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Chris Johnson said:


> We also have something in our electrical code, and don't ask me where it's written




So you're quoting codes, but have no idea of what is written, or where it is? The inspector makes stuff up on the spot out of air, and then you quote it here?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

No I listen to my licensed sub trades and am part of the inspections when they happen. 

I also know which fights to pick, and with what the original poster was fighting for in my opinion wasn't worth fighting for. Fix it and move on. The original part of this thread was not creating a safety problem, it may have been preventing a problem (as the inspector seems to think) or it may be a non issue whether it's moved or not.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

You only need a permit if you are adding circuitry, changing fixtures or devices does not require you to pull a permit.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> You only need a permit if you are adding circuitry, changing fixtures or devices does not require you to pull a permit.


Correct, I may have worded it wrong


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## KermieB (Jul 27, 2012)

Chris Johnson... I appreciate you hijacking my thread and taking it away from the original question.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

KermieB said:


> Chris Johnson... I appreciate you hijacking my thread and taking it away from the original question.


I'm here to help as well.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

I did my part as well!

How about them butt heads at California closets?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

KermieB said:


> Chris Johnson... I appreciate you hijacking my thread and taking it away from the original question.


No problem, I gave you an answer, fix it and keep the inspector happy and off your back, make your life easier with him in the future. Right or wrong, his request wasn't unsafe and you keep the peace with him


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## KermieB (Jul 27, 2012)

Chris Johnson said:


> No problem, I gave you an answer, fix it and keep the inspector happy and off your back, make your life easier with him in the future. Right or wrong, his request wasn't unsafe and you keep the peace with him


How can you POSSIBLY know anything when you don't pay attention to detail? I told you... I CAN NOT give him 12" of separation from the exhaust vent. Look at this picture.







I can move it laterally 12", but there's only about 6" between the lateral run of the vent, and the wall. The only way to give him 12" is to wreck out the old copper, buy new and install the tubing from a different direction, and I'm not gonna do that. Period. It's preexisting and it's NOT MY MF PROBLEM.

***So here's an update.***
Yesterday, I go to his office and show him that picture and tell him, I just can't give him what he asks. AGAIN, I tell him, that it's existing. He decides to pay another visit. We're literally on site for an hour and I have to explain to this guy FIVE different times that I have not disturbed the old gas line. I merely installed a new one from the future spot for the meter and ran it to a point just in front of a bank of shut off valves, where we will tie in when SCE&G moves the meter. 

Look at the picture again. See the white pex pipe in the top right? Well, it seems that it too is touching the vent pipe and now, that too is my problem and it needs to be moved. LOL... you got to be effing kidding me? So now I'm responsible for a water pipe that was put in 10 years ago. He also points out an electrical wire that is hanging loosely from the overhead joists and says that has to be fixed. 

This guy apparently now thinks that everything in this 100 year old house is my problem. If you think that I'm making this up, here's the inspection report.







Here's what's wrong with this report. 
1. He put the wrong permit number on it.
2. He put the wrong permit holder on it.
3. He's claiming that I'm installing the new furnace which I clearly didn't
4. An existing water line is too close to a vent pipe.
5. An existing gas line is too close to a vent pipe.
6. There are no sediment traps, so I have to install one (or more according to code. It's required to be on the downstream side of a shut off valve near the appliance) when I neither installed, nor changed any gas pipes to appliances.
7. I have no fricking idea what he means by 503.6 Manufactur's Data. Is he asking for somthing and did I leave something out?

This is gross incompetence. Also, (and this will testify to his IQ and educational level) check out the spelling and the 4th grade handwriting. You may not think this is important but I think it's a direct reflection on the man. If he can't handle simple English grammar, how is he supposed to understand, interpret and enforce complex code requirements?

Not sure what a "sleve thur wall" is....
I guess "suport" is some new kind of metallic strap for holding up pipe.
I always thought there was an "S" in "licencing" and I guess "preform" is something that is made offsite and brought in.

I told you guys about the 95% efficient furnace, right? It uses PVC for an exhaust pipe. He looked at me and said, "I don't know how he thinks he can get away with this?" and I calmly explained that it was the manufacturer's specs. 

Thank goodness I don't do but a job or two per year in his jurisdiction. I'd have to kill him eventually. Going to see his boss in the morning.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

I think you have your hands full with this guy. Going above him is the only way, here it is just 1 quick phone call and that inspector would be going back to school.

Surprised he doesn't want you to expose the footings to see if they are deep enough.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

If they're going to be cocky, they better know damn right know what there talking about at the very least. This guy is dumber than dumb 

Attend the next commissioners meeting for ****s and giggles and ask them if they're aware of the fine gentlemen's behavior towards their voting constituents. Remind them this man has lost you money by grand slamming BS and has affected your ability to provide your family. 

Does your state/ muni require certified inspectors?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Bring in an outside inspector, I am mostly structural, so I bring in an engineer, he writes and letter and it gets filed with the building department, once our building department has that on file they are liability free, file closed. If you think this is all acceptable, who would be the outside party in your state?

I hope the inspector didn't read this thread and start picking on the electrical


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

[QUOTE="rrk"Surprised he doesn't want you to expose the footings to see if they are deep enough.[/QUOTE] 
Once when I just started out as a builder, the town building inspector stopped by and wanted to dig up the footing in the house I was working in. 

We argued. I started digging . Then thought f$$k this. Called him up and said show me where it's code that existing footing depth needed to be verified when installing drywall. No call back. He soon ended up quitting and got a job as a parttime firefighter.


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## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)

So he says "foot and a half" after he talks to gas company and he writes down 12" on the report? Talk about grasping at straws.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

On a large apartment job, we were fighting a plumbing inspector that claimed all of the plumbing undergrounds were installed incorrectly. The plumbing contractor proved he was correct with the OBC, but the inspector kept sighting his shirt pocket code book that had no basis in reality.

We ended up appealing to the State and got the undergrounds approved through their inspector. The rest of our plumbing inspections took place through the State without issue.


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## KermieB (Jul 27, 2012)

***Update***

I just quit this job. I've got a nice den project and three bathrooms sold and waiting for me to get to and I don't need this headache or this little bit of money. The homeowner can fight this battle, but I'm not. 

I filed a formal complaint with the State of SC LLR and it's in thier system, then I tried to sit down with the City Administrator and he just totally wussed out and told me that he had to work with this guy every day and that I "just needed to work it out with him." OMG, I wanted to knock his teeth out. Next the filed inspector for SCE&G (gas company) came out because he's waiting to move the meter. He looked at it, and said it was exactly like it should be and he would ride up to the codes office and talk to the inspector. 

The inspector told him, he didn't care, there was "too much stuff wrong in that basement and he was NOT gonna approve the new gas line until it was all fixed."

I just can't imagine how this guy thinks that everything wrong in that basement is now MY problem.


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## KermieB (Jul 27, 2012)

Gary H said:


> He soon ended up quitting and got a job as a parttime firefighter.



Funny that you say this, because this guy was a fireman. I first reported that he was a retired fireman, but I've since found out that he was fired. 

Guess who our fire chief is...? Go on, guess...

His own son.


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## KermieB (Jul 27, 2012)

superseal said:


> Does your state/ muni require certified inspectors?


Yes, but there is a provision written in by the State of SC that says he can be on the job for a period of one year before he's mandated to test and become a certified inspector.

When I was on the phone with the state guy, I told him this. "I think it's rather ironic that a man, say an HVAC guy, can spend 30 years of his life learning his trade... has to be tested and certified before he can even buy a can of freon or AC system, and has to take continuing education to keep current, but the man that's gonna tell him he's doing it all wrong can be hired off the street."

He said, "well he does have to be tested after one year on the job," and I said, "yea, and how many contractors can he put out of business in that time period?"


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