# copper vs brass vs bronze



## Electric_Light

Putting plastic and ferrous metals aside for now, we have the aforementioned materials.

The actual tubes are usually made from copper. Pipe to thread adapters are usually made from copper and sometimes machined extruded brass. 

Valve bodies are usually made from brass, but I have not seen a pure copper valve body. It seems like the newer ones are utilizing forged and extruded manufacturing and the old ones are rough and apparently cast brass.

Would someone explain why this is? 
Why not make pipe brass?
Why not make everything copper?


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## ABLE1

Well being a non-plumber as you are?? And me being a non-plumber as I am. I have decided to answer your question in the simple terms that we both can understand. I will just provide words that will help rather than trying to go into the details of a metallurgist.

Structural strength
Ease of manufacturing
Long term life of product
Co$t 

Hope that gets your thread going.

Have a good weekend.

Les


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## KillerToiletSpider

They make brass pipe, the Carbide and Carbon in Chicago has all brass risers.


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## Mike's Plumbing

Almost everything in life comes down to money. When the question of WHY comes up in a manufactured part is is always about how to produce something of quality quickly and at a better profit.

I know that in the old days the brass was always red brass and now it's a cheaper version called yellow brass. Even at the scrap yard you get a premium for red brass. Red brass has copper in it.

Copper is too soft to use as quality castings for many high abuse parts not to mention it's expensive. Again...it's always about money.

Mike


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## Inner10

> I know that in the old days the brass was always red brass and now it's a cheaper version called yellow brass. Even at the scrap yard you get a premium for red brass. Red brass has copper in it.


Mike they all are mostly copper.

Red brass is brass + bronze with more copper.

80+% copper with a mix of tin lead and zinc.

Yellow is 30% zinc 70% copper.

If i remember correctly from class.:laughing:


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## protechplumbing

See replies in blue



Electric_Light said:


> Putting plastic and ferrous metals aside for now, we have the aforementioned materials.
> 
> The actual tubes are usually made from copper. Pipe to thread adapters are usually made from copper and sometimes machined extruded brass.
> 
> Valve bodies are usually made from brass, but I have not seen a pure copper valve body. It seems like the newer ones are utilizing forged and extruded manufacturing and the old ones are rough and apparently cast brass.
> 
> Would someone explain why this is?
> Why not make pipe brass? They do make brass pipe in both yellow and red brass. Few contractors will use it due to the high cost sch 40 brass vs CTS copper and of course the newer plastics. Sch 40 brass seems to hold up for 100 years or more in this area. It all comes down to money.
> Why not make everything copper? #1 price. #2 pure copper is very soft and has poor strength. Alloying it with tin and or zinc and a few trace metals greatly increases it's mechanical strength while saving cost. Of course the down side is that the alloys will be more susceptible to de-alloying corrosion process. This is especially true as you add more alloy metals and decrease the percentage of copper in the alloy. Of course, the less copper you use, the cheaper the alloy is to make.


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## protechplumbing

I believe in order to be called red brass, the alloy must contain 15% or less alloy metals. In other words, it must contain at least 85% copper to be called red brass.

Also, if the primary additive is tin, you have bronze.

If the primary additive is zinc, you have brass.



Inner10 said:


> Mike they all are mostly copper.
> 
> Red brass is brass + bronze with more copper.
> 
> 80+% copper with a mix of tin lead and zinc.
> 
> Yellow is 30% zinc 70% copper.
> 
> If i remember correctly from class.:laughing:


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## Electric_Light

Would someone explain why this is? 
Why not make pipe brass? They do make brass pipe in both yellow and red brass. Few contractors will use it due to the high cost sch 40 brass vs CTS copper and of course the newer plastics. Sch 40 brass seems to hold up for 100 years or more in this area. It all comes down to money.


Why not make everything copper? #1 price. #2 pure copper is very soft and has poor strength. Alloying it with tin and or zinc and a few trace metals greatly increases it's mechanical strength while saving cost. Of course the down side is that the alloys will be more susceptible to de-alloying corrosion process. This is especially true as you add more alloy metals and decrease the percentage of copper in the alloy. Of course, the less copper you use, the cheaper the alloy is to make.

So, if brass has higher strength, and lower cost, wouldn't brass plumbing be cheaper? The first answer and second answer you gave contradicts each other


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## Mike's Plumbing

You should go visit an engineering site for this information:laughing:


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## protechplumbing

Due to sch. 40 braas pipe being so much thicker, it is more expensive than CTS size copper pipe, even though the alloy is cheaper than copper.

Brass cannot be extruded into a thin tube like copper. It will crack when deformed unlike copper. It must be cast or spun into sch 40 pipe which is about 3 times thicker walled.

I hope that answers your question.



Electric_Light said:


> Would someone explain why this is?
> Why not make pipe brass? They do make brass pipe in both yellow and red brass. Few contractors will use it due to the high cost sch 40 brass vs CTS copper and of course the newer plastics. Sch 40 brass seems to hold up for 100 years or more in this area. It all comes down to money.
> 
> 
> Why not make everything copper? #1 price. #2 pure copper is very soft and has poor strength. Alloying it with tin and or zinc and a few trace metals greatly increases it's mechanical strength while saving cost. Of course the down side is that the alloys will be more susceptible to de-alloying corrosion process. This is especially true as you add more alloy metals and decrease the percentage of copper in the alloy. Of course, the less copper you use, the cheaper the alloy is to make.
> 
> So, if brass has higher strength, and lower cost, wouldn't brass plumbing be cheaper? The first answer and second answer you gave contradicts each other


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## Electric_Light

protechplumbing said:


> Due to sch. 40 braas pipe being so much thicker, it is more expensive than CTS size copper pipe, even though the alloy is cheaper than copper.
> 
> Brass cannot be extruded into a thin tube like copper. It will crack when deformed unlike copper. It must be cast or spun into sch 40 pipe which is about 3 times thicker walled.
> 
> I hope that answers your question.


I've seen some paper thin walled brass tubes at hardware store bins. Really thin 1/8 ones that you could snap in half between two fingers. I came up with some search result for "extruded brass" too. 

So, brass alloys can't be made into thin walled hollow tubes?

The nipples are thick since they have to endure the physical stress of getting turned with a pipe wrench and screwing into or having things screwed into.


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## Tinstaafl

Electric_Light said:


> So, brass alloys can't be made into thin walled hollow tubes?


Obviously, they can. That doesn't mean they'll be suitable for any given purpose.

Speaking of purpose, what does this have to do with the concerns that contractors generally come here to discuss? Seems more like idle curiosity chit-chat to me. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just perhaps there is a better venue for exploring such questions.


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## protechplumbing

Yeah, and you usually get about 10 years max out of those.

Ever had one of those 22gauge brass p-traps disintegrate in your hands before? That's why they have to make it in sch. 40 thickness and they make copper much thinner. Copper resists corrosion better (with all other things being equal) even though it is mechanically weaker.

If they were to make copper into sch. 40 threaded pipe it would have to problems. Extreme cost and it would deform when you took a wrench to it due to it's high ductility and poor strength.



Electric_Light said:


> *I've seen some paper thin walled brass tubes at hardware store bins. Really thin 1/8 ones that you could snap in half between two fingers. I came up with some search result for "extruded brass" too. *
> 
> So, brass alloys can't be made into thin walled hollow tubes?
> 
> The nipples are thick since they have to endure the physical stress of getting turned with a pipe wrench and screwing into or having things screwed into.


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## protechplumbing

Copper valves do exists, they aren't that common though. The few you do see are usually wrought as copper doesn't cast as well as brass does.



Electric_Light said:


> Putting plastic and ferrous metals aside for now, we have the aforementioned materials.
> 
> The actual tubes are usually made from copper. Pipe to thread adapters are usually made from copper and sometimes machined extruded brass.
> 
> *Valve bodies are usually made from brass, but I have not seen a pure copper valve body*. It seems like the newer ones are utilizing forged and extruded manufacturing and the old ones are rough and apparently cast brass.
> 
> Would someone explain why this is?
> Why not make pipe brass?
> Why not make everything copper?


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