# Question about water damage



## Cashking63 (Jan 4, 2008)

Here is what I have, any helpful remarks will be greatly appreciated.

A 3 story, 6,000 sqf home. Had the pipes burst in the attic. It is a vacation home so nobody knew it till a week later.  Insurance adjuster say it can all be dried out with minimul replacement. There is hardwood flooring that buckled, carpet, .... its really hard to describe. Its a mess. Anyway I have a meeting with the adjuster and Homeowner on Monday to go over everything. What are somethings I can bring up to beat him with. I know Mold is an issue, what else?


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

structural issues, mold is the big one, older home maybe asbestos.


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

I hate to say it but the Insurance Adjuster, is an idiot!


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

The only way to truly dry it out is to open up each bay and remove flooring were needed. Other wise mold will grow from underneath. You need light, heat, and air movement to prevent mold from growing. There are many water fire restoration outfits that you might want to get involved with this, they would no best how to handle this bone head adjuster. You could have them do the demo and drying then you can fix er' up.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Mold isn't an insurance company issue. I believe they all include disclaimers for mold. It's not the insurance companies responsibility to prevent it or remediate it. If there is a mold problem, that's the owners problem.

Preventing the mold by drying things may or may not be the owners problem. Normal drying of things would be covered but cutting open the floors and walls probably not.

Replacing buckled flooring should be the insurance companies responsibility. 

It does seem strange that a 3 story home has water pipes in the attic. Check on the installation of these. Are they recent? If so, was the work permitted? Who did it?


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## Cashking63 (Jan 4, 2008)

it is a newer home so no asbestos worries. I just need to know what I should look for, and what I need to argue about. Homeowner wants it done right no matter what, its just going to be a battle to get insurance agency to cover. As for the pipes, I am by no means a plumber but from what I understand it was a bleed off valve that froze and busted.


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## masterk (Dec 29, 2007)

Here 90% of the houses have basements. Most people finish them off for rec. rooms. I have been in many of basements where the sump pump went bad. The one ho had the drywall ripped out 4 foot up and any insulation. A company then came in to check for and remove the mold. Her insurance company paid for everything except my sump pump bill. Mold grows very fast and is deadly. Don't let this adjuster tell you any different. It's cheaper for the insurance company to fix it right the first time, then to have a condemed home or even a death. Don't let this idiot push you around stand your ground.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Tell your H/O to have there lawyer look at the insurance coverages before agreeing to do anything less than what you think is necessary to do the job right. It's gonna be your liability once you do the work regardless of what the insurance company agrees to pay for.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

thom said:


> *Mold isn't an insurance company issue*. I believe they all include disclaimers for mold. It's not the insurance companies responsibility to prevent it or remediate it. If there is a mold problem, that's the owners problem.
> 
> Preventing the mold by drying things may or may not be the owners problem. Normal drying of things would be covered but cutting open the floors and walls probably not.
> 
> ...


it isnt? then I best be returning all that money the homeowners insurance companies paid me in 05 and 06 when I worked with a remediation company.


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## skylands (Dec 10, 2005)

Dealing with insurance adjusters has definetly gotten worse over the past few years. For many years the insurance companies use to pay me direct. They don't do that anymore. The check goes to the homeowner and then signed over to you. Otherwise, the insurance company would be responsible for your work, permits, inspections and so on. 

Unfortanatly, Cole said it best but Thom has it right. Insurance companies are not going to pay for mold that's not there. 

Just do your estimate and be thorough. Adjusters react favorably to itemized estimates showing a true cost and mark-up for the project. What's covered and what's not covered is not your business. That's between the insurance company and the HO. It all has to be addressed, but who ends up paying you is not for you to direct. You just need to know you're going to get paid from someone. 

It's nice that you meet with the adjuster, but understand that it really doesn't make much difference. They're going to pay what they want whether your there or not.


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## skylands (Dec 10, 2005)

I think Thom meant mold that's not there yet.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Get yourself a meter that measures moister and don't do a thing any were until it has dried (like you should). Before long, a week or two, you'll have mold showing up. Then they will pay for it. How does the inside of a wall dry with out air movement? It can't! Mold spores are everywhere it's a fact. Add water to any surface, keep it wet and dark and WALLAH! the perfect environment for mold to grow. You can't make it stop with wishes.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Sorry, there is a third ingredient that mold needs to grow and that is food, anything organic. In fact, the more processed the food the faster mold will grow. Wood is the basic ingredient. Depending on how much it has been processed depends on how fast the mold can grow. If the home was made of rough cut lumber that dried naturally and had plaster and lath walls it would most likely not be a problem. This being a newer home, will certainly cause problems. The wood framing was most likely kiln dried (cooked/processed) and the paper on the back of the drywall (cooked/pulverized/pressed/processed). This is why it's an industry standard these days to use paperless rock in places that can get wet regularly. The flooring was kiln dried/processed. Most likely, if there was glue used, it has organics in it. The sub flooring is plywood so again, cooked/sliced/glued/processed. There's no way to stop it unless you open it up.

Get a good lawyer to write your contract addressing these facts if they choose to short cut if the Insurance won't pay it.

Sorry to ramble, but I've been to a few health and welfare seminars for builders. Thought I'd share a small piece of knowledge, I could go on much more but I'll leave it there.


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## Cashking63 (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks guys for the help. i have not done a whole lot of water damage repairs. A basement here or there and thats about it.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

The facts about mold in buildings

Straight from the EPA: 

*The key to mold control is moisture control.* It is important to dry water damaged areas and items within 24-48 hours to prevent mold growth. 
-------------------------------------------------------

If its been longer than this, you have mold. Doesn't matter if you can see it with the naked eye yet or not, it's there and there are stepr you have to take to remove it. ( insurance purposes of coures):whistling


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## Tin Cup (Nov 22, 2007)

Cashking63 said:


> Thanks guys for the help. i have not done a whole lot of water damage repairs. A basement here or there and thats about it.


some o.k. comments about mold here, some not entirely accurate. but...

although most insurance companies tried to eliminate the mold coverage because they didn't fully understand it, mold remediation can still be a covered claim under certain circumstances depending on each policy.

the key here is, your customer is the Homeowner not the Adjuster. But a major selling point to get the job is your ability to deal with the adjuster and get the proper repairs with the homeowner only paying his deductable. many contractors will eat the owner's deductable as a selling point, to me that is whoreing yourself out, let's just call it a "kickback", maybe a topic for another thread.

the key to dealing with the adjuster is to price the way the adjuster does, very important to itemize EVERY step you anticipate taking to restore the home. Every step, every hour, every linear ft., every square ft., all special equipment needed (air scrubbers, blowers, sanitizers, wetvacs, carpet vacs, dumpster rental, etc.) We are not talking about taking advantage of the insurance company, we are talking about using their system and way of looking at things to adjust. itemize initial cleanup and asset protection separate from rebuilding. also itemize content removal, cleaning and return. Contents are usually dealt with separate from asset restoration.

a fairly new cycle is the more frequent use of Desk Adjusters, for smaller & basic claims, an aduster may not even visit the site. Offer to emain them digital photos and send them a complete itemization. Let them tell you what they cannot cover. If they cut some items, you can take what they are willing to pay or negotiate with the homeowner, every situation is different. Remember you are dealing with an Adjuster. His job is to "Adjust". Everything is negotiable as long as you can back up your time/cost to perform an item you feel is necessary. I've assisted in adjusting both for and against insurance companies. They want the asset restored correctly and completely so they can close the claim.

As far as direct payments from insurance companies, my experience says that depends on: size of claim/payment, who is majority lienholder (if it is a major claim mortgage holder has to be included in payment approval and may even inspect repairs to protect their interest. Most checks will have homeowner's name and contractor's name on it to protect both.

Now we should probably save the detailed Mold talk for another thread, it's still a missunderstood discipline. at this point, sounds like you just want some general guidance.

DO NOT FORGET, take the bottom line of your quote/estimate and add 20% for your "overhead & profit".

Good Luck,

Tin Cup


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Cashking63 said:


> Insurance adjuster say it can all be dried out with minimul replacement.


Total hogwash.

Here's a white paper on the wiring alone. It's a quick read. Long story short, anything electrical that got wet needs replaced, including the actual wires. 

http://www.nema.org/redirect/redire...uating Water-Damaged Electrical Equipment.pdf


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## trptman (Mar 26, 2007)

I don't quite follow, you got enough water to buckle flooring but the ceiling drywall joints aren't damaged and the drywall is not visibly damaged? Where did the water come through at? If it was that big of a mess I don't see how just drying the place out would work.
The insurance is there to make them "whole" again. Just trying to let the place dry out and be left with a musty smelling, possibly mold filled house does not make them "whole". Thats where your argument begins. Buckled flooring is a direct result of the water. I don't see how they could not pay to replace that. I don't see how they could not pay for new drywall ceilings as well. Thats' where the water came through, correct? After drywall gets that wet, it is not the same after it dries out. Those are the kinds of things you need to point out.

Depending on the age of the carpets etc, and the wording of the policy, they might not be entitled to full replacement cost. They may depreciate the value of the carpets for example. So to get new carpets of the same quality the HO may have to chip in some money.
The advice from earlier posts is good regarding itemizing in great detail. That's how they view it when coming up with damage estimates. They will understand where you're coming from better that way.

I had a very similar job not long ago but the HO's insurance adjuster was great to work with. Insurance co. wanted everything removed etc., not just dried out. I didn't have to argue with anyone about any of that kind of thing. In fact, as work progressed and neared completion, the adjuster actually asked if I had anything unexpected come up that needed covered. They were very proactive. This doesn't help you, of course, but possibly if you can't get anywhere with this guy, your HO can request a different adjuster be assigned? If not, it might be time to resort to a lawyer for them. Good luck to you.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Tin Cup said:


> some o.k. comments about mold here, some not entirely accurate. but...
> 
> Now we should probably save the detailed Mold talk for another thread, it's still a missunderstood discipline. at this point, sounds like you just want some general guidance.
> 
> ...


Please......... Do tell! I'm dieing to here your "accurate" explanation of how mold grows:laughing: I'm sure it's much more informative than the EPA's information:laughing:. Please!! I know it will be just as good as your advice you gave someone about how you don't need to screw sheetrock acording to USG Standards if you use glue instead:w00t:


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

The ho should hire a public adjuster to deal with the insurance company's adjuster. They will come out, and using the insurance company's tactics, go head to head for the ho. They get a percentage of the claim for payment so you can be sure they will leave no stone unturned.


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## Tin Cup (Nov 22, 2007)

Jason W said:


> Please......... Do tell! I'm dieing to here your "accurate" explanation of how mold grows:laughing: I'm sure it's much more informative than the EPA's information:laughing:. Please!! I know it will be just as good as your advice you gave someone about how you don't need to screw sheetrock acording to USG Standards if you use glue instead:w00t:


Jason,

This poor guy just wanted some general advise on how to deal with the adjuster, he already mentioned he knew Mold was an issue. If you want to start a Mold Remediation thread, I'll play along. 

your assignment is to re-read all the posts on this thread to figure out which comment wasn't entirely accurate. here's a hint, it wasn't yours. come see me when you figure it out. you're gonna feel stupid.

the reason we should leave the detailed mold talk for another thread is there is no way any of us are going to coach him how to remediate anything for pay by and insurance company at this stage. the best advise you gave was, once he touches it, he's responsible. not to mention, his own contractor's insurance would probably cancel him if they knew he was going to remediate without specific coverage even if it was the same insurance company who's covering the house in question, another reason i say its still missunderstood.

as far as using my comment on another topic make your point, both of my kids tried that once. 

Tin Cup


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## dragonfly (Feb 11, 2008)

Just a quick note on insurance payments. Get a form from the insurance company that will include the contractors name on the check once the work is being done. With out that you are at the mercy of the home owner to pay you in full once you are done. Been there and learned my lesson, took 2 years and an attorney to file everything to get my money. In fact my payment just came today, after lots of aggravation. I thought this guy would never do this either. I guess the old saying is true, you have to pay for your education.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Never mind


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## Big Bob (May 30, 2007)

"What are somethings I can bring up to beat him with. I know Mold is an issue, what else?" Cashking.

Assume that you have a good adjuster and they want to pay what the policy owes. ( you should not need to beat them with anything).

1. Do the best possible job you can for the Home Owners.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Big Bob said:


> "What are somethings I can bring up to beat him with. I know Mold is an issue, what else?" Cashking.
> 
> Assume that you have a good adjuster and they want to pay what the policy owes. ( you should not need to beat them with anything).
> 
> 1. Do the best possible job you can for the Home Owners.



I think it was already established this adjuster doesn't know his a** from a hole in the ground. I read an interesting item attributed to an article in Kiplinger magazine. They said close to 80% of insurance damage claims are settled for 20-40% of what the actual repair costs are.
Pretty hard to do the best possible job for the ho when the insurance company short changes them and if they don't have the difference to pay to get things back to the way they were. The contractor wants to actually make a profit on the job and not do the work out of the goodness of his heart.


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## skymaster (Oct 23, 2006)

one thing that hasnt been mentioned yet but is important; EVERY insurance adjuster MAKES HIS BONUS MONEY FROM NOT SPENDING all of the money the insurance company is willing to pay on a claim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is a FACT.
The BEST thing is what Tim said, go get an independent ins adjuster to get in this claim. He does get his money from GETTING THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT FROM THE COMPANY. Again trust me. Been thru this dance only 2 yrs ago with a major lightning strike to my friends house :{:{ What a mess
From a person that I know who used to be in that biz the normal procedure was: On smaller claims the company would write the check for the Max amount of the claim, then the rep would PUT THEM in a drawer and unless the claimant called AT LEAST 4 TIMES he never mailed em! End of year was a 50/50 split!!!!!!!!!
FACT. We got an independent adjuster on the lightining strike and he go more than enuf to cover himself and a few bucks more for the owner than the adjuster was willing to pay.


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