# wimpy new kid...what to do



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Gus Dering said:


> I don't want to do a lot of things I have to do.


Ya, but your not a kid anymore & know they have to be done.



CarpenterSFO said:


> The kid probably doesn't even know it's water he's looking at.
> 
> My observation is that most kids need to get fired a couple times before they understand about earning a paycheck.


Some will never understand the concept of working for a living...



NYGUTTERGUY said:


> unfortunately in my area this type of kid your'e describing has been replaced by kids named jose'..American kids have become so spoiled hard work is looked down upon.


This stems from the whole go to college attitude and a working guy is looked down at. There was a thread on this subject a bit ago.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Late to the party, but..."I don't want to?"

It sounds like this little geek needs a career driving a desk.

I "don't want to" be crawling around in dusty attics in 100 degree heat when the attic temp is nearly 120 either, but it's part of the job.


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## ddp (Mar 20, 2014)

Construction isn't for everyone. Either he grows a pair or gets a job at GAP.


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## PoleBarnsNY (Jan 18, 2014)

Not quite accurate. 

I can't BECAUSE I don't want to.

All fixed. 

Kid you just quit. Go on home. I have work to do.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

This is pretty common, I don't know how many times I've heard people say I'm not doing this, in one form or another. All you need to tell him is, if you don't want to do it then I can't use you. I know you feel bad for him but you have to throw your feelings out the window. Construction isn't for everybody, it's not for most people actually. All you can do is help the few people that show the determination and initiative to do it.


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## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

Poor kid, who knew construction would be so hard?


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

Whether or not you stick with him is up to you. Personally I would evaluate the kid on different terms. Not being able to carry a bundle of shingles will only last a short time.
1st: Does he show up on time, clean, have his own transportation, respectful, keep his mouth shut around customers, and is he honest?
If this is the case, I would spend some time trying to work with him. If he needs to break a bundle to carry them up a ladder, so what. As long as he can keep me in shingles and I don't have to carry them up, I'm good.
It won't be long, he will be carrying up full bundles.
This is only the case if he is willing to work. I'll bet he has never been pushed to work. I mean work as in physical labor.
If he meets the 1st criteria, I say keep him. Quality help is hard to come by. Muscle will come.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> The only motivation I would offer is, "That's the job today. If you can't do the job or don't want to do it, then I can't use you. It's your choice, decide now."


No other answer than this IMO.


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## littlefred811 (Dec 16, 2012)

Let's see. I'm 52. I had two strokes before I was 49, and I am out there every day working on my projects, not just bidding (3 man operation, so I can't just "manage").

It seems like half the time, when I get a FNG, I have to teach him HOW to work; this even happens when I bring on some "experienced" floor guys. I guess I'm just too old and stubborn to not crank it out when I'm in someones home trying to get them to hand me what can be a large check.*

I'd have him bring his parents to the job, and fire him in front of them.

*and I'm betting half you guys on the forum could work my ass into the ground.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

NYGUTTERGUY said:


> unfortunately in my area this type of kid your'e describing has been replaced by kids named jose'..American kids have become so spoiled hard work is looked down upon.


Sad but so true. The under 30 crowd around here is worthless, unless you need help with Facebook.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

When I was a teenager and did roofing another rookie tried to carry up his first bundle, got near the top and dropped it, damn thing blew through the deck boards like a hot knife through butter. So if someone said to me they can't do a full bundle, I'd tell em to split it and work their way up.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

ddp said:


> Construction isn't for everyone. Either he grows a pair or gets a job at GAP.


Lol...out of thanks so thanks!



PoleBarnsNY said:


> Not quite accurate.
> 
> I can't BECAUSE I don't want to.
> 
> ...


Out of thanks so thanks!



KennMacMoragh said:


> This is pretty common, I don't know how many times I've heard people say I'm not doing this, in one form or another. All you need to tell him is, if you don't want to do it then I can't use you. I know you feel bad for him but you have to throw your feelings out the window. Construction isn't for everybody, it's not for most people actually. All you can do is help the few people that show the determination and initiative to do it.


I think he's a good kid so I want to give him a shot but he's gonna have to change the I can't attitude. Had he not rode with me id have sent him home yesterday.



Agility said:


> Poor kid, who knew construction would be so hard?


Out of rhanks so thanks!



builditguy said:


> Whether or not you stick with him is up to you. Personally I would evaluate the kid on different terms. Not being able to carry a bundle of shingles will only last a short time.
> 1st: Does he show up on time, clean, have his own transportation, respectful, keep his mouth shut around customers, and is he honest?
> If this is the case, I would spend some time trying to work with him. If he needs to break a bundle to carry them up a ladder, so what. As long as he can keep me in shingles and I don't have to carry them up, I'm good.
> It won't be long, he will be carrying up full bundles.
> ...


I agree with everything. ...he is on time and clean with a decent head on his shoulders......just apparently doesnt want to work hard and wants to go straight ro the "glory work"
I told him you'll get strong enough...to which he replied I dont think I want to
We shall see



pinwheel said:


> No other answer than this IMO.


This is what my gut tells me



Inner10 said:


> When I was a teenager and did roofing another rookie tried to carry up his first bundle, got near the top and dropped it, damn thing blew through the deck boards like a hot knife through butter. So if someone said to me they can't do a full bundle, I'd tell em to split it and work their way up.


It was way to windy to split bundles yesterday...


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## fourcornerhome (Feb 19, 2008)

Not sure I would waste my time on a kid that says he doesn't want to do the work..But someone mentioned a teachable moment....My question is, does anybody carry bundles upright anymore ? That's how everybody did it years ago and it is easier than flat. Now all I see is guys carrying flat.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

fourcornerhome said:


> Not sure I would waste my time on a kid that says he doesn't want to do the work..But someone mentioned a teachable moment....My question is, does anybody carry bundles upright anymore ? That's how everybody did it years ago and it is easier than flat. Now all I see is guys carrying flat.


I have never seen this...I can't imagine it would be easier...have a pic?


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

If it was me I give them one and only chance, the first time I hear "I won't" that's it. I respond with you will or you will walk home and you time stops now. I had one walk about 10 miles back to the shop with a bucket full of tools, to clock out and get his car and go home. He did not get paid for the 2 hour walk he took.

As far as breaking the bundles down who cares? It's not like your doing a 25 sq house. It's 5 square, as long as he gets the shingles up to the roof and put where you want them how does it doesn't matter how they get up there.


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

fourcornerhome said:


> Not sure I would waste my time on a kid that says he doesn't want to do the work..But someone mentioned a teachable moment....My question is, does anybody carry bundles upright anymore ? That's how everybody did it years ago and it is easier than flat. Now all I see is guys carrying flat.


Upright?


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

Bearded Wonder said:


> Upright?


I think he might mean on edge. At least that's how my dad made me carry them up when I was a kid. For some reason the hoist never seemed to work the day I helped out :sad:


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## Fender (Jul 22, 2013)

Robinson_Cnst said:


> My old man started as a gandy dancer on the rail road at 16. Needless to say hes the toughest sob I've ever worked for. He started me out landscaping at 14. There was no "I can't lift this" he would laugh and stack another block in my arms or load the wheel barrow heavier.
> Kids these days rarely get to learn what hard work is. Everything gets done for them. I know I'll never be as tough as my dad or be able to carry rail ties on my shoulder but he gave me a work ethic that has made me a successful business owner.
> I say toughen those weak kids up and show them what hard work gives them. You might be the last real man that ever has the chance to!


That's how my dad was with me."can't isn't in my vocabulary." Is his response when one of our guys claimed they couldn't do something(or when I did in my teenage years, won't lie.)

I pretty much didn't have the choice. I was the tractor, I was the pack mule, I was the crane lol. I remember still being in my early 20s and the other guys on the crew would be bitching because I was doing layout while they were digging post holes. Everyone just wants to walk in and be the lead guy. I'd laugh and tell them that the grunt **** is easy because you don't have to think, no stress. I'd tell them we can trade, if they can magically learn how to lay out a house.

Long story short, I wasn't allowed to be lazy.


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## fourcornerhome (Feb 19, 2008)

https://www.google.com/search?q=carry+shingles+up+ladder&client=firefox-a&hs=Tv6&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=2lY8U5b5B6qisQSTooGwBQ&ved=0CGsQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=730#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=_myi3C87H9xtVM%253A%3BNchIs_6XBu2EAM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fww3.hdnux.com%252Fphotos%252F22%252F61%252F60%252F4922382%252F3%252F628x471.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.greenwichtime.com%252Flocal%252Farticle%252FGreenwich-residents-try-to-keep-cool-4669294.php%3B628%3B418

Back in the day, everybody carried like this except for guys with wimpy shoulders. I would even carry doubles like this.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

I think you ought to send him over to Rob Duke so he can jump right into finish work......

let him figure out how to "Hanging Dissappearing Attic Staircas By Yourself".


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Before I met my friend, he went to work for one of the roofers we do work for now. He was 18, tall skinny kid - thought to himself "I'm going to try being a roofer!" His first day, about a 20 sq walker. $100 / day for a laborer. Humped bundles and trash till he thought he was going to die. Drank too much gatoraid of all flavors, and puked a rainbow in the bushes ...

T-bone saw that he wasn't going to come back the next day. He knew that if he gave him the 100 bucks, he'd never see him again. So he told him "You know if you don't show up for work tomorrow, you aren't getting paid for today right?"

Fast forward about 16 years - now he owns his own business, is one of the toughest bastiges I know, and does some of the best work. There are things I might do differently, but the end product is still excellent quality, and the guy is a hard worker.

T-bone would have paid him btw, but it was just the hard-nosed motivation that kid needed to cowboy up.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

No one forced me to man up by being a jerk to me, I did it on my own. This kid might just be the same type.

Now I own a business, pay more in taxes than most people make, and could hump a square up the ladder in a trip if I had to.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Golden view said:


> No one forced me to man up by being a jerk to me, I did it on my own. This kid might just be the same type.
> 
> Now I own a business, pay more in taxes than most people make, and could hump a square up the ladder in a trip if I had to.


T-bone is a hard-a$$, but he's got a heart of gold. 

I'm 135 lb, and I can hump a square of 3 tabs in one shot. Maybe archies if they were on the top of the pallet. Might not hump anything else for a few minutes though :laughing:


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Well screw this little nancy boy....didnt yet put his notice in at the reastraunt and we are scheduled full time this week coming up. NEXT!


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## NCMCarpentry (Apr 7, 2013)

Get him on the juice


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Well screw this little nancy boy....didnt yet put his notice in at the reastraunt and we are scheduled full time this week coming up. NEXT!



have a liquid lunch?:jester:
what happened? he boned you with a full schedule?


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

NYGUTTERGUY said:


> unfortunately in my area this type of kid your'e describing has been replaced by kids named jose'..American kids have become so spoiled hard work is looked down upon.


So true. I'm 25 and its a beautiful thing to look out across the fruited plain of my locality and see no competition my age. No one my age wants to do this work anymore. More for me! :thumbup:


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## Fingersmasher (May 28, 2013)

Spencer said:


> So true. I'm 25 and its a beautiful thing to look out across the fruited plain of my locality and see no competition my age. No one my age wants to do this work anymore. More for me! :thumbup:


X2 on that!

10-20 years from now will be gravy.


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## thesidingpro (Jun 7, 2007)

I started framing when I was 15 through a vocational program. I started in a the winter, was kinda slow plus I had school in morning so I'd show up at lunch and pick up trash etc.

That first summer working 8-9 hour days wore me out. I remember the first few weeks coming home, barely being able to stay awake in the shower at 6pm and sleeping from 7pm-7am. It was miserable but I felt like a man, was hanging out with men, and learned so much. It wasn't long until I was doing tasks like putting blocking in walls on my own and other mundane tasks that weren't so labor intensive.

By the time I was 18 and graduated highschool I was laying out walls and owners right hand man. I'd help him do all the difficult fun stuff while the other guys blew through the easy stuff. We'd do the spiral staircases, lay out the crazy roof's, etc. I learned so much.


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

I used to be a soft inexperienced labourer. I didn't know the meaning of hard work. But I'd see the pros, men that were experts in their craft and I aspired to be like that. The boss would point at the framing package and tell me all of it needs to go on the second floor. It was tough but I put my head down and kept at it. 

This work shapes a person. I've found it's toughened me and given me confidence in and out of the trade. I'm glad I stuck with it. Too bad the kid didn't.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

WBailey1041 said:


> Remember the first time you hit on a girl and got shot down? Embarrassing wasn't it? .


No? I guess I'll have to take your word on that one :laughing:


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

jamestrd said:


> have a liquid lunch?:jester:
> what happened? he boned you with a full schedule?


Pretty much


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

EricBrancard said:


> No? I guess I'll have to take your word on that one :laughing:


Remember the first white lie you told on the internet...lol.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Pretty much


Ouch. That's a shame.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

A friend of mine and I were working on a group project and we hired some interns a couple of summers ago. They were aged 16-19 and one of them happened to be in that "wimpy kid" category. 

We were doing a foreclosure cleanout and he didn't want to do any of the heavy lifting. He wanted to work with the ladies and clean out the kitchen cabinets and medicine cabinets. EEEERRRrrrrrrRRRRKKKKK....(record scratch) I explained to him that he does what he is TOLD and he does not get to pick and choose. 

Anyhow, after some debating back and forth I told him to go sit in the van and wait for us to finish. Sure enough by the time our lunch break came around there was a sense of team comradery amongst the other interns and he was starting to feel left out. Then the heavy lifting didn't seem so difficult anymore. :no:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Spencer said:


> So true. I'm 25 and its a beautiful thing to look out across the fruited plain of my locality and see no competition my age. No one my age wants to do this work anymore. More for me! :thumbup:


Oh i hear you :thumbup:


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## Dmitry (Aug 23, 2010)

FramingPro said:


> Oh i hear you :thumbup:


Oh, please guys, you got a handful of competition may be not American born but lots and lots of competition.
Competition with good education and balls)


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## Smithanator (Feb 18, 2013)

If he can't carry shingles up a ladder .. He is useless.. He's going to do nothing but tote lumber for years .. I bet he sweeps slow .. There's no cure for lazy .. Back when I was a greenhorn I would literally run.. Make up in hustle what I lacked I knowledge . My saying to useless help that I have fired before I hired " I can replace you with a nail "


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## Robinson1 (Mar 14, 2014)

A&E Exteriors said:


> He is 20


And can't pick up a bundle of shingles. 

Wow.

That's all I got. 

:no:


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## Robinson1 (Mar 14, 2014)

Stunt Carpenter said:


> Tell him he's lucky to only be moving shingles.
> 
> I spent the 1st hauling two trailer loads of other peoples crap out of a basement apartment to the dump bc they decided their stuff wasn't even worth taking with them. Talk about crappy work


I've done that before except it was a renter house and they were borderline hoarders. By lunch I had resorted to parking the trailer under a second story window and cutting everything up with the sawzall. :laughing:


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## Smithanator (Feb 18, 2013)

I was forced to carry a bundle on each shoulder up a ext ladder two story house when I was16 .. Was told that's how every one did it .. As I struggled up each step slowly ..I eventually made it but could not get off bundles without help ... The older guys laughed at me for attempting .. But I earned mad respect for doing ... I am still to this day not to good for anything when times are slow ... I recently demoed cabinets and granite counter tops keeping everything intact ... Also tore out hay insulation in third story attic in aug just to keep busy for the couple day layover I had between jobs


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## Smithanator (Feb 18, 2013)

Kids are so soft , entitled and lazy these days it makes me made just hearing about this kid


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## Kiwidan (Jan 10, 2014)

I pretty much try motivating kids by making it a competitive environment... So say we retiring steel I'll say if I can tie double the amount of the boy if he can bet me then I'll buy him a coke if not he can buy me one... And before they know it there working hard and doing it


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## MarkNoV (Apr 29, 2006)

Good for him. 

Kids today are not softer, they are smarter.

There are too many old dinosaurs in the trades who believe working stupid is a sign of manhood.

Buy a ladder lift.

Mark


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

I don't want to either.

That's different than. "I won't."

After all the employees I've had roofing for near 30 years, I never _expect_ a new guy to just be able to hump bundles. If they can that's great. But whether they can or can't, I still need to give them a couple minutes of training on technique for picking up a bundle and getting it to the roof safely. I have to treat every new hire as if the don't know how.

It's way more about technique than balls. As many have stated, it doesn't take long to get the hang of it, but the first few are pretty tough for a lot of laborers.

Can't fix it if it's, "I won't"


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MarkNoV said:


> Good for him.
> 
> Kids today are not softer, they are smarter.
> 
> ...


Buy one for me


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

> Kids today are not softer, they are smarter.


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## dtsinc (Jan 26, 2009)

I helped a friend do his 2 story roof when I was 19. Stocked 35 square by myself... I couldn't walk by the end of the day, and i'm pretty sure it's why my back has hurt every day for last 27 years. I did it because I was asked to, and I knew how to work hard.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MarkNoV said:


> Good for him.
> 
> Kids today are not softer, they are smarter.
> 
> ...


And I would never set up a laddervader for a one story 5 square tie in....I can load it by the time the lift is set up

Not to mention its 2 bundles here, one bundle there, three bundles over here...etc , etc


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

MarkNoV said:


> Good for him.
> 
> Kids today are not softer, they are smarter.
> 
> ...


2 grand off the bat for the occasional roof - and now you've got to store and maintain it vs. couple of hundred bucks here and there as needed and keep somebody working?

And the ladder lift is the smart choice???


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## Wylian (Feb 18, 2010)

I will tell you what,I started my carpenter journey at 18-19, did not even know what a plywood was. 
Carrying lumber for others, Working in heights, but, fast forward 4 months later, I had to carry some bundles up a 12' ladder. It had snowed and those bundles were drenched, I carried 4 in a row, and my legs were almost giving up from under me. Awkward and heavy to carry.
He will get the hang of it, I can probably haul plywood easier to a roof than I can a wet bundle of shingle.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

MarkNoV said:


> Good for him. Kids today are not softer, they are smarter. There are too many old dinosaurs in the trades who believe working stupid is a sign of manhood. Buy a ladder lift. Mark


I bet you're a stick of room temperature margarine. Are you the kind of employee that wants a raise but immediately complain when the boss buys new equipment? Money spent on laddervators is money you could pocket. I guess you're too smart to figure that out. The weakest generation this great country ever produced is my generation, Millennials, the most self centered, narcissistic folks to grace you with their presence. The reason the US is in the economic mess we are in is because of "young people". I'm 31, you?


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

Kids today are not smarter than kids of any other generation . But they are the laziest


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

If you want to find out the most efficient way to do something, give the task to someone who doesn't want to do it.

Forgot who said that, but its true.


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## Dmitry (Aug 23, 2010)

Just read in a book that working hard to earn money is a caveman formula.
Applies pretty much everywhere.
Don't want to brag here but it was me a 25 year old showing old timers that construction master saves scribing the framing square a dozen times to get to the measurement on the end or figuring out the bastard hip angle and drop without crazy scribing and fitting method.

I mean if you want to bust your ass and work stupid hard till the end of your life you'll sure as hell will end up doing.


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## MarkNoV (Apr 29, 2006)

WBailey1041 said:


> I bet you're a stick of room temperature margarine. Are you the kind of employee that wants a raise but immediately complain when the boss buys new equipment? Money spent on laddervators is money you could pocket. I guess you're too smart to figure that out. The weakest generation this great country ever produced is my generation, Millennials, the most self centered, narcissistic folks to grace you with their presence. The reason the US is in the economic mess we are in is because of "young people". I'm 31, you?


I am 56, which makes me a baby boomer, the worst generation ever to inhabit this planet, and the biggest reason for the economic mess you are in. 

Last time I was an employee I was 19. I caught an error on a bill of lading that saved the company $45,000. I got fired when I asked for 5% commission. Haven't worked for the "man" since then.

Got into the trades because, when I got out of university with my business degree, it was, and still is, the fastest and the easiest way to make money. (Turned down offers from all major Canadian banks and the Pharma industry. My in-laws thought I was nuts)

Being surrounded by old guys who only know dumb work, rely only on referrals, and leave thousands of dollars on the table just to "keep busy", helps.

Mark


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

Funny how these threads can turn into little pissing matches, when often the underlying sentiments are cut of the same cloth. I think most agree that working hard gets you further.

Still there are strong differences in application of brain and brawn.

Efficiency is not intrinsic to brawn. The considerations made by the brain to target brawn will, for a large percentage of tasks, increase one's accomplishment over the same period of time.

So using the brain and working one's ass off will accomplish more than just the latter.

The ladder hoist is a good example:

Let's consider having two 3 man roof crews.

One crew has 25 squares to put on and the wholesaler has dropped the load in the driveway. The crew spends 45 minutes at full speed humping up and down the ladder to load the roof. ( that's 25 trips each at 2 minutes per trip +/-)

Another crew has a cookie cutter job across the street. They set up their hoist and load the roof. Set up tear down and load also takes 45 minutes.

So are the above two examples equal?

No. One crew has had the added cost of the $2K ladder hoist to absorb.

But that is not the only difference. The crew with the hoist barely broke a sweat while the manual roof load put that crew at a physical disadvantage for at least the time it takes to recover. More likely the load has reduced the ultimate output for the day.

Let's suggest the manual load crew has lost the stamina to install just one bundle each less than the hoist crew by the end of the day. So combined they have one square less installed (or they need a longer time to install equal amounts).

One square might be $60 (arbitrary but reasonable).

So after approximately 34 roofs, the hoist will be paid for, still have value as tangible property, and be available to increase the bottom line by $60 on similar jobs.

Over the 5 year life of the hoist (they last a lot longer), at a clip of 34 roofs a year, there is an additional $8000 produced by the hoist crew vs the manual crew.

*OR*

Have the $2000 you didn't spend on the hoist.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

That like showing up with a crane to cut down a telephone pole sized tree. A bit overkill on small jobs. 

Plus if you pull up to a small roof repair with that thing, people are going to laugh their asses off. Especially to unload shingles out of your truckbed.

It scales both ways. Yes at a certain size/volume it makes sense. But at the same time theres a point when it too much equipment for too little volume.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Mr Latone said:


> Funny how these threads can turn into little pissing matches, when often the underlying sentiments are cut of the same cloth. I think most agree that working hard gets you further.
> 
> Still there are strong differences in application of brain and brawn.
> 
> ...


I think this is quite incomplete... I disagree that set-up, tear-down and load would be 45 minutes... that aside, you forgot the load onto the truck, the extra gas because of the weight to and from and the unload from the truck at the end of the day... not to mention storage, maintenance, etc...

If it had to be repaired, down time, and repair cost... and this all assumes you paid cash for it and there are no carrying costs...

So the numbers seem a bit incomplete and skewed...

So let's say $4K... putting aside it's paper money (as in, it doesn't add to your bank account, just efficiency which doesn't always translate in a tangible way... kinda' like coupons... ), $4K over 5 years is only $67/ month... not an appreciable ROI for a $2K purchase... 

If anything, IMHO, the better concern is longevity of the worker and customer perception...


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Regaurding the laddervator

We have one------- we haven't used it since 2011.

I confess- when I bought it, I anticipated it being more usefull than it really is.

Ironically, this morning I looked at a project where---IF we get the job, we will use the laddervator.

As a practical matter- if the machine is already on the truck- it takes 2 guys about 1/2 hour to get it up and running. We only use it if we can get 2 days work out of each set-up.

It's about 1/2 hour to set up and a1/2 hour to take down-all in all a PITA.

If I had to do it over- I would not have bought it. If You do buy one- get the cheaper, lighter duty one rather than the heavy duty one I bought.- the lighter one set's up easier/faster and you would be more likely to use it.

Very nice on re-sheeting jobs, I admidt.
stephen


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## NCMCarpentry (Apr 7, 2013)

Mr Latone said:


> Funny how these threads can turn into little pissing matches, when often the underlying sentiments are cut of the same cloth. I think most agree that working hard gets you further.
> 
> Still there are strong differences in application of brain and brawn.
> 
> ...


OR

Only hire monsters and profit


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Mr Latone said:


> Funny how these threads can turn into little pissing matches, when often the underlying sentiments are cut of the same cloth. I think most agree that working hard gets you further.
> 
> Still there are strong differences in application of brain and brawn.
> 
> ...


Or of the 50 or so roofs a year I do, maybe 5 are loaded from the ground when access it a pain. You can keep your lift and ill keep my money.... or spend it on something better anyways.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

There us not a whole lot of working smart in roofing just a lot of hard work . No matter what I I am doing I try to do it working smart but I work at I hard so I can get the job done fast and using 29 year Olds to do the grunt work is working smart .


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Dmitry said:


> Just read in a book that working hard to earn money is a caveman formula.
> Applies pretty much everywhere.
> Don't want to brag here but it was me a 25 year old showing old timers that construction master saves scribing the framing square a dozen times to get to the measurement on the end or figuring out the bastard hip angle and drop without crazy scribing and fitting method.
> 
> I mean if you want to bust your ass and work stupid hard till the end of your life you'll sure as hell will end up doing.


That's a no brainer. It takes time to work the calculations. $20 on BuildCalc android app I occasionally use was a no brainer. It takes up no space, requires no maintenance, cheap, and saves MY time.

$2k on a ladder hoist on the other hand not so much - it saves a laborers time. There is a breaking point where it makes sense to get a ladder hoist. When it saves you more than it cost you, and it's worth the upfront cost it's a no brainer.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Driftweed said:


> If you want to find out the most efficient way to do something, give the task to someone who doesn't want to do it.
> 
> Forgot who said that, but its true.


Bill Gates. He said pretty much that a "lazy" worker will find an easy way to perform a difficult task.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Mr Latone said:


> Funny how these threads can turn into little pissing matches, when often the underlying sentiments are cut of the same cloth. I think most agree that working hard gets you further.
> 
> Still there are strong differences in application of brain and brawn.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more. Also a less fatigued worker also does better work.

There's a difference though when you're only doing 5 roofs / year. and have to purchase, store, and maintain it, vs bringing an extra guy out.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Or of the 50 or so roofs a year I do, maybe 5 are loaded from the ground when access it a pain. You can keep your lift and ill keep my money.... or spend it on something better anyways.


You've got a supplier loads the roof?


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## Dmitry (Aug 23, 2010)

smalpierre said:


> That's a no brainer. It takes time to work the calculations. $20 on BuildCalc android app I occasionally use was a no brainer. It takes up no space, requires no maintenance, cheap, and saves MY time. $2k on a ladder hoist on the other hand not so much - it saves a laborers time. There is a breaking point where it makes sense to get a ladder hoist. When it saves you more than it cost you, and it's worth the upfront cost it's a no brainer.


Hiring labourers actually costs even more.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Dmitry said:


> Hiring labourers actually costs even more.


Depends on what you are doing. Paying a carpenter to dig holes, ditches and footings or humping material is not cost effective. Assuming you have the work to keep a labe busy. 

If not, I dont mind digging.


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## Dmitry (Aug 23, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Depends on what you are doing. Paying a carpenter to dig holes, ditches and footings or humping material is not cost effective. Assuming you have the work to keep a labe busy. If not, I dont mind digging.


Agree.
I can only judge by common sense and what I see around here, as I stay away from roofing.

Even small crews have those lifts, and from what I can see with the ones I know they don't have any labs.
4 guys that know what they are doing are gonna be much more effective if they don't have to hump the bundles for one it's more time efficient and they save the energy.
As for setting it up I really don't see the problem, get it off the truck, lean onto the roof.

Even if it's a smaller job and day you humped all those bundles a little faster than me setting up the lift, I am still less beat.
At least it's worth making it easier on my back.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Dmitry said:


> Agree.
> I can only judge by common sense and what I see around here, as I stay away from roofing.
> 
> Even small crews have those lifts, and from what I can see with the ones I know they don't have any labs.
> ...


 dmitry- I am guessing you never actually set one up and ran it.- It's a little more complicated than you would like to think.

1)- it's heavy- the ladder section is way more heavy than a 40 ft. ladder
2) typically we have to bolt extra sections on to the ladder section to even reach what we want.
3) deciding where to put it to use it most effectively WITHOUT MOVING IT AGAIN!!!!!
4) It has to go up at a specific angle( at least mine does)- too steep or too flat an angle and it won't really work.
5) the slope of the ground can interfere with the motor mount

6) rig a system to NOT crush the gutter when 400 lbs. goes up the lift.
7) secure the top point so the whole freaking mess doesn't blow over.
8) Unload the motor from the truck. carry the monstrously heavy motor to the ladder and lift it up 2 rungs and hang it from the ladder section.
9) run the cable up to the roof edge, thread it through the pully and back down to hook to the motor. You need a second ladder for this because you are not supposed to climb the frame.
10)Get the motor running. Ours hasn't been used in several years- think that's gonna be easy?
11) what no one has mentioned- the shingles come up outboard of the roof. On a walker that's not a big problem-- but on a 12/12( or an 1812 like I am on today- it makes for a very un-safe reach OUTWARD from the gutter to pick the bundles

all in all, it's typically more effective to have a low wage laborer carry the bundles up slightly in advance of need. He can be cleaning up ground,pre-cutting starts, running drip edge, drying in etc. in between trips up the ladder.

Best of all is to have the suppliers boom truck load the roof- here all the suppliers run fleets of boom trucks........:clap:
stephen


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

smalpierre said:


> You've got a supplier loads the roof?


If I'm not there they will load it for me. If I'm there they are craned or skytracked up...seldom do we load from ground.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

A&E Exteriors said:


> If I'm not there they will load it for me. If I'm there they are craned or skytracked up...seldom do we load from ground.


How do you manage the tear off? None of the suppliers here have boom trucks. They have flatbeds with forklifts, and drop it usually in the driveway. I saw them in FL, and wondered how that worked.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

smalpierre said:


> How do you manage the tear off? None of the suppliers here have boom trucks. They have flatbeds with forklifts, and drop it usually in the driveway. I saw them in FL, and wondered how that worked.


It's either loaded on the roof before I get there or we'll start the tear off and run paper across the top and load them when my delivery shows up.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

A&E Exteriors said:


> It's either loaded on the roof before I get there or we'll start the tear off and run paper across the top and load them when my delivery shows up.


Starting tear off and felting the top first makes sense. It's when they are loaded and you've got to tear off under them that I wonder about. Seems like a lot of moving stuff around to tear off.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

smalpierre said:


> Starting tear off and felting the top first makes sense. It's when they are loaded and you've got to tear off under them that I wonder about. Seems like a lot of moving stuff around to tear off.


In those situatoins I just tear off around the stacks and then when most of the shingles are down we move the last few bundles and finish the tear off then.


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## eliteroof (Apr 15, 2014)

His issue is not how hard it is. His issue is attitude. I don't know why he applied for the job but when he says "I don't want to", he is saying find me a different job to do. This fellow will be a problem for you forever even if he gets over the current issue. 

Being a hard ass won't help him which it sounds like you want to do, but cutting him a bunch of slack won't help him either. Perhaps it is worth 10 minutes to hear what he really wants, give him some guidance on how best to achieve it if you can and then tell him you are letting him go....for his own good, and yours.


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## brayconst (Oct 25, 2012)

Spencer said:


> So true. I'm 25 and its a beautiful thing to look out across the fruited plain of my locality and see no competition my age. No one my age wants to do this work anymore. More for me! :thumbup:


At 23 I'm seeing the same scenery here in California. Going to be great pickings on work later on in life, but we just gotta keep grinding til our time comes. 

Although government will hit us with trying to monopolize our trade. Rapid contractors training out of a handbook for six months and boom you're "professional contractor".


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## zlgo (Jun 5, 2014)

Tell him it's either hump bundles or go to college and get a desk job


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## SteveinNEPA (Jun 5, 2014)

Hell I wont lie, I HATED humping shingles up ladders when I first started out. I hate it to this day. But I can do it, I have done it and if I had to I would do it again. Big difference between disliking it and out right saying I CANT. Then again, I also dont do full roof jobs anymore if I can avoid it. Repairs sure, but my last full roof was probably 2 years ago.


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## mgb (Oct 31, 2008)

Being young and not "having to work" is a big factor. Especially when it comes to appeasing your boss, or pushing yourself physically.

I was that way when I first started working under my pops. Took a bit till I gained more responsibility and felt satisfaction with working hard.

Not saying to wait around for that. But you should be able to tell by someones demeanor if they're worth keeping around. If they drag ass and you hear "I can't, I won't" from reasonable expectations, it's just not going to work out.

Especially when at a new job, you'd think they are trying to make a good impression. I've seen alot of guys come and go with that attitude.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Just read through the first couple pages, maybe the kid worked out, I don't know. But I'll tell you this...I'd love to see the look on his face if I asked him to schlep a full buckets of mortar up a 30' ladder, then walk across 50 yr old asbestos shingles in December. I'm pretty sure I'd see tears.

Happy trails kid......


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

He did not make it.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

A&E Exteriors said:


> He did not make it.


What happened? I thought he came around?


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> Just read through the first couple pages, maybe the kid worked out, I don't know. But I'll tell you this...I'd love to see the look on his face if I asked him to schlep a full buckets of mortar up a 30' ladder, then walk across 50 yr old asbestos shingles in December. I'm pretty sure I'd see tears.
> 
> Happy trails kid......


Only 1 bucket?


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