# Joist hangers, Good or Bad?



## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

Getting ready to build a 2-story and running into a design issue. The 1st floor greatroom is 23' long, north-south. As designed right now the south wall is exterior and the north wall is interior load bearing. It's gonna take some pretty heafty I-joists to make a 23' span 16"oc. I could always spend more money and go to 12"oc or larger I-joists, but the intent is to try to keep costs down.

Conversely, I could run an LVL beam east-west and cut the span down to about 17'. Then 9 1/2" joists 16"oc would be adequate. Design restrictions require that I use joist hangers to fasten the joists to the beam. In the past I've always preferred to run joists on top of bearing walls and beams.

My question is whether joist hangers are prone to squeeky floors in time. They simply don't seem as sturdy as placing the joists over the bearing wall/beam.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Cache said:


> Getting ready to build a 2-story and running into a design issue. The 1st floor greatroom is 23' long, north-south. As designed right now the south wall is exterior and the north wall is interior load bearing. It's gonna take some pretty heafty I-joists to make a 23' span 16"oc. I could always spend more money and go to 12"oc or larger I-joists, but the intent is to try to keep costs down.
> 
> Conversely, I could run an LVL beam east-west and cut the span down to about 17'. Then 9 1/2" joists 16"oc would be adequate. Design restrictions require that I use joist hangers to fasten the joists to the beam. In the past I've always preferred to run joists on top of bearing walls and beams.
> 
> My question is whether joist hangers are prone to squeeky floors in time. They simply don't seem as sturdy as placing the joists over the bearing wall/beam.


 
I lived in a Hurricane prone area for years and about 30 years ago I was introduced to Simpson products joist hangers, ties, straps etc. They work well If installed properly. The first time I saw them I was like yeah right this is gonna hold what where?? They do


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

Cache said:


> Getting ready to build a 2-story and running into a design issue. The 1st floor greatroom is 23' long, north-south. As designed right now the south wall is exterior and the north wall is interior load bearing. It's gonna take some pretty heafty I-joists to make a 23' span 16"oc. I could always spend more money and go to 12"oc or larger I-joists, but the intent is to try to keep costs down.
> 
> Conversely, I could run an LVL beam east-west and cut the span down to about 17'. Then 9 1/2" joists 16"oc would be adequate. Design restrictions require that I use joist hangers to fasten the joists to the beam. In the past I've always preferred to run joists on top of bearing walls and beams.
> 
> My question is whether joist hangers are prone to squeaky floors in time. They simply don't seem as sturdy as placing the joists over the bearing wall/beam.


If you go with 12" centers or larger I-joists. That might keep the costs down. By the time you figure in the cost of the beam and the hangers you might break even or it will cost more and yes, you might have some squeaks. I always put glue in my joists hangers. It's always better to drop a beam and go straight across without using a flush beam and hangers.

You have four options that you should really figure out cost wise.

1) I-joists big enough to handle the span at 16" centers. Might be 14" I-joists.
2) I-joists at 12" centers maybe 12" high instead of 14".
3) Flush beam using 9-1/2" I-joists with hangers.
4) Dropped beam 9-1/2" I-joists with no hangers.

The other problem you might have using clear-span I-joists is the height might effect your ceiling heights and floor height. If you have existing 2x10's and you your first floor ceiling height has to match the existing first floor and the top of the new I-joists have to match the top of the existing floor joists so that you have no steps, Using 12" or 14" I-joists will be a problem and you will have to lower your first floor wall height.


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

I would check with an engineer and your local AHJ about sizing, that is what they get payed to do. Second, glob some construction adhesive in the hangers before setting the joists and you should have no problems.


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

Not to go over anyone here but...you should probably atleast double up the lvl if you're going to use it as a break point for all your I beams. Are you using TGI's? Then what about the posts for your new lvl's?

Definately use PL and definately use the right caliber of nails for your hangers. Make sure you get all of them in. 

I also say seriously consider your price options. 24' TGI's 16 oc...what's the width? 12 oc over a 20 ft span vs 16 oc 20 ft span...difference is 21 pieces vs 16 pcs= 5 extra tgi's. At say $100 each...that's only $500.

2 new lvl's = $200. Plus hangers and nails =$200 + extra labour...probably $500....=$900. Supposing posts aren't a problem.

So far...off of very rough estimations...you're better off just going 12 oc with your I beams. Unless I'm off on your prices.


ALSO...Hangers aren't your only option:
Joists on ledger
Joists bearing on steel flange
Joists hung from nailing plate

All equally economical...more or less. Hit me up if you need more info...or consult an engineer. GL.:thumbsup:


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Joists squeaking all depends on the person putting them in. like Joe Carola said above, if you put a dab of construction adhesive in the seat, there's a much better chance of your joists being squeak free. It's all how you pay attention to the joist sitting in the seat of the hanger and if it rubs up on the sides.


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## toolwiz93 (Feb 22, 2008)

Something I always take into consideration, if I need to, is the mechanical aspect. You know plumbing, hvac, and electrical layouts will play an important roll in your decision. If at all possible use whatever will clear span the width and if that won't work maybe a dropped beam.


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## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks guys. Yeah, it looks like it would actually be more expensive to use LVL beams to shorten the span, vs going with 12oc, or larger joists.

I would really like to switch the direction of the load bearing walls and run the joists east-west. That would only require 15-16' spans. I would then be able to use smaller joists without beams at all. The problem there comes with HVAC design. In my area, basements are the norm. So much so, that a well finished basement is considered normal living space and pretty much valued as if it were above ground. As long as it has normal height ceilings and full egress windows.

It would really be a bummer if I couldn't get the ducts out of the way. Of all aspects of building, HVAC is what I'm least familiar with, but certain design aspects seem intuitive. If I run the joists the other direction, the most logical place for the main HVAC trunk would be right through the middle of the family-room ceiling. Not asthetically pleasing at all!! If I was able to locate the furnace on the west end of the basement I could at least avoid that situation. 

Tough decisions. Any input??


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

I used 16" TJI's 16"OC when I built my place. I have a 23' clear span and the floor is rock solid. I have a 2nd fl laundry and bath and I did run them at 12" OC under the machines and tub area. I recently bought front loader machines and was a little nervous when I read all the feedback about front loaders high speed spinning and floor vibrations. When I hooked them up though there were no problems whatsoever and you can't even here the washer downstairs when it is spinning on high speed.
The one benefit that all the subs will love you for is that there is loads of room to work in the joist bays.:thumbsup:


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I've done a lot of work with tji's. Did a job on my own house that I needed to use 12" tall ones to span 23-1/2'. Used the ones with the 3-1/2" flanges at 12"oc. It works but you can't put anything through them, there just isn't enough room.

About 4 years ago I switched from tji's for the second floor deck to engineered trusses. I draw each truss detailing the exact length and exact location of the duct chase. Everything lines up perfectly. It's way easier to get hvac and plumbing installed. They cost a little more but are well worth it.


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## mikec (Jan 2, 2007)

How far would the LVL beam have to go, east/west? You may not be able to use 9.5 LVL's if its to far. I've had an engineer tell me that 4 9.5 LVLs wouldn't do it. Had to give up on the flush beam idea, and call the arch, who said it 3 lvl's would work. When I told her what the engineer said, she said "oh, well lets put a 11-7/8 LVL underneath and box it" freaking architects!


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

mikec said:


> I've had an engineer tell me that 4 9.5 LVLs wouldn't do it.
> !


You should have asked him if they would work with flitch plates in between because they usually do. There are many options when using a flush beam. He could've seen if you can use 3/4' X 9-1/2" flitch plates in between, or maybe a 1/2" flitch plate. Who knows, you could've used a steel I-beam.


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## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

Once I did a cost breakdown for each option, it looks like I can go with 14" I-joists. Overall, it costs me about $200 extra, but saves me a ton of hassle. Admittedly, I didn't price out floor trusses. I don't think that HVAC is going to be an issue. 14" joists @ 16"oc should be plenty of room to run ducts. The main trunk for the main floor and basement will be running through basement closets mostly. HVAC for the second floor will run through the attic.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Deeper is cheaper


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## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

For anyone who might be interested. I went ahead and got a bid for open web trusses for this same job. 

Looks like the two best options are as follows:

Boise Cascade BCI (I-joists) 14" depth 60 series. These will make that span well over code @ 16"oc. They were priced @ about $2.75/lf. I'll need about 27 of them @ 37' lengths. That makes *$2,750*.
The other option is 18" depth trusses. These will make that span @ 24"oc. He designs them to meet code at 24"oc and then recommends the install @ 19"oc. So I calculated based on 19"oc. He priced them at right about $3.00/lf. I'd need 23 of them @ 37' lengths. That makes $2,550, but it'll require a couple extra tracks of brick around the entire house. That'll cost about $230, which brings it to *$2,880*.
The tipping point was reached when I talked to the HVAC guy and he told me what the options were for hiding the ducts with the trusses. I'm plumbing the house myself, and I already know how nice the trusses will be for that. They will likely save me about a week's worth of work. The case is closed. I'm going with the open web trusses. Hardly more expensive at all and they are much more versatile.

Thanks THOM for the heads up on the trusses.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

At the 19+" oc even ¾ T&G is to
springy for my taste, and I think
to flexible for tile.
Maybe want to throw in a bit for
extra thick deck?


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## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

neolitic said:


> At the 19+" oc even ¾ T&G is to
> springy for my taste, and I think
> to flexible for tile.
> Maybe want to throw in a bit for
> extra thick deck?


True. I could go with 16"oc which would cost about $500 extra, or I could go with the thicker deck. Again that would be about $500 extra. 

In any case, most of the floor above it is bedroom, so the carpet won't have any problem. The master baath will have natural stone though, so I might consider 16"oc or less for that space.


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

Cache said:


> In my area, basements are the norm. So much so, that a well finished basement is considered normal living space and pretty much valued as if it were above ground. As long as it has normal height ceilings and full egress windows.


Remember basements are of value to YOU and a future buyer and the tax assessor, Not the Appraiser and does not add to finished sq. footage. Most people don't know that when they finish off 1000 sq. ft. So if you have a 2000sq. ft. house and finish off a 1000 sq. ft. basement; You did not just create a 3000 sq. ft. house!:no:



Cache said:


> True. I could go with 16"oc which would cost about $500 extra, or I could go with the thicker deck. Again that would be about $500 extra.
> 
> In any case, most of the floor above it is bedroom, so the carpet won't have any problem. The master bath will have natural stone though, so I might consider 16"oc or less for that space.


Just about everyone Under estimates the actual load of stuff they put on the floor and this is more often than not, the cause of the squeaks. Two things to consider. THE 80's ARE OVER. Wood Floors are back. If you want to really add value, you will need to put a wood floor in that Master Bedroom. You can add an area rug, but todays buyers realize that Carpets can not be cleaned enough to keep a house allergy free. Wood floors are extremely sought after. Even if you don't the next owner will, so build it for it. I would not go any more than 16 OC through out the MBR and would drop to 12" OC under the Bathroom.


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## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

I don't know where you are from, but that statement is only mostly correct. The way you stated it made it sound like the basement has little to no value from an appraisal standpoint. IOW, the basement is considered just a large crawlspace, or at best just a large nonliving space like cold storage. 

In some areas that might be the case, but not here. Footings must be >38" deep, so it's only natural that you'd spend the extra few thousand to dig out that dirt between the foundation walls and pour a slab. Sometimes the basements are left unfinished, and sometimes they are finished cheaply as was common back in the 80's. Most times though, they are finished off just as if they were above ground. Especially in nicer areas where the builders pour 9' foundation walls and design for walkout/daylight basements for that above ground feel.

From an appraisal standpoint, you are correct in that the appraiser does one calculation for above ground GLA, and a separate calculation for the basement area. But that isn't to say that the basement has little value. The value of basements is very dependent on the area and the finish of the space. This statement can be pulled from almost every appraisal info source. _"The local market will dictate the contributory value of the finished basement, which can be influenced by governmental regulations, the degree of modernization, the quality of the finish, and other factors. "

_In my area, a 1500sf house with a fully finished 1500sf basement is listed and described by sellers and buyers alike as a 3,000sf house. Indeed, appraisers are more careful in clarifying that half of it is basement, but they aren't the ones buying your home. Even an unfinished basement here carries a considerable amount of value. 

In any case, we designed our house with specific regard to what you are talking about. Most houses here are just as I described above. 1500-2000sf (above ground) ramblers with full finished basements. We opted for a design that would maximize value by have much more GLA above ground and a relatively small footprint. 1,200sf daylight basement... 1,300sf main... 1,300sf second floor. Lumber and other such building materials are very cheap right now, but concrete and steel aren't cheap at all. So, we designed for more lumber and less concrete, which naturally leads to a higher appraisal because of the factors you've cited.

In regard to hardwood floors. You are correct. I've had both hardwood and carpet for the MBR. Wood looks much nicer, but carpet is much nicer in function. Most people that I talk to are of that same opinion. It seems to me that the only reason people put wood floors in the MBR is because it is expected in a high-end home and is a distinguishing feature. In reality, it is incredibly impractical to put wood floors in a bedroom. They are cold and uncomfortable in the morning and unforgiving to laziness in terms of cleaning. The result is that everyone ends up covering them with a piece of carpet like an area rug or something. Isn't that just the dumbest thing ever. I'm convinced that 30 years from now people are going to look back on that and wonder what we were thinking. But I have no choice. Just as you say, I probably have to do it as I won't be in this home for more than a couple years.

Your suggestion of 16"oc and 12" under the master bath is good. We had actually just talked about doing that, but were still getting opinions from a couple respected professionals. Thanks for the advice.



LNG24 said:


> Remember basements are of value to YOU and a future buyer and the tax assessor, Not the Appraiser and does not add to finished sq. footage. Most people don't know that when they finish off 1000 sq. ft. So if you have a 2000sq. ft. house and finish off a 1000 sq. ft. basement; You did not just create a 3000 sq. ft. house!:no:
> 
> 
> 
> Just about everyone Under estimates the actual load of stuff they put on the floor and this is more often than not, the cause of the squeaks. Two things to consider. THE 80's ARE OVER. Wood Floors are back. If you want to really add value, you will need to put a wood floor in that Master Bedroom. You can add an area rug, but todays buyers realize that Carpets can not be cleaned enough to keep a house allergy free. Wood floors are extremely sought after. Even if you don't the next owner will, so build it for it. I would not go any more than 16 OC through out the MBR and would drop to 12" OC under the Bathroom.


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

Cache,

First, I am in New York as it says right under my name to the left. 

Well I hope you didn't think I was saying not to finish it off. Yes, Finished Basements do add value, but not at the same rate as above ground sq. footage. In my MLS, Basement sq. footage is separated from above ground sq. footage so you are not on the same playing field. Furthermore, if you don't have a c/o for it, it does not count either. 

Anyway, my main point was that you should be careful just how much money you put into the basement. If it is built better than the upstairs, the upstairs will look like it needs work. If it is done poorly, it will look like it needs to be redone. Ceiling height is the biggest issue. Keep the finished ceiling height at 7-6" to 8' for maximum ROI. 

Since you stated that all the homes in your area have a finished basement, then you should as well. The RED FLAG I see in your situation is that you indicated you would be selling soon. Soon as in within 10 years. Remember you will not get a 100% ROI. Might get like 80% right now. 

You should always build or renovate with the idea that you will not to be the Most Expensive House on the block when you are finished. In order to do that, you need to know what the most expensive house on the block is. 

I have three foreclosures right now where the sellers simply pulled too much equity out of their home or renovated it over market conditions. Now they can't sell and are loosing the houses. Don't do that!


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## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

Yeah, it is definitely different over there, but no I didn't think you were saying not to finish it. Interestingly though, we aren't planning to finish it until we are getting ready to sell in a couple years. We are only going to finish off the top two floors at first. It seems from your statements that you're under the impression that we are doing a re-model. We are actually building new. Our area is one of those that didn't see the crazy appreciation during the last few years. Last year while many places were dropping, we saw a 7% increase. 

Anyway, we are likely going to stick with 8' ceilings in the basement while the top two floors will have 9' ceilings. We are just trying to do the best we can to keep ductwork from making the ceilings seem even lower. 16" deep open web trusses spaced @ 19" centers makes that much easier, but I don't think we'll be ok with that. Especially since we're gonna be installing natural stone flooring on certain sections. The wood floors will handle the bounce a bit better, but I'd just as soon no press my luck.

We definitely won't be the most expensive house on the block. We are trying to keep our build under $350K while many in the neighborhood are selling for $750K. We are actually more concerned with under-building for the area. We'll be able to live in it for as long as we need to in order to wait out a soft period if necessary.






LNG24 said:


> Cache,
> 
> First, I am in New York as it says right under my name to the left.
> 
> ...


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

Post some pictures as you progress. 

Just another thing for thought. When I build or use to build my basements, I had them do 9' walls. Then I could run all the duct work I needed and not have to worry about pushing the ceiling under 8' Weight out the costs with that as opposed to the trusses. Then you can have a maze of duct work and never worry. Of course you would need to install either a hung ceiling or run steel studs under the duct work and install the sheetrock to that. 

One last thing. Do nto finsh off the basement right before you sell. Either finish it off now and enjoy it or don't and price the house accordingly. I see so many people put in new kitchens, bathrooms and basements right before they sell and then wonder why they are not recoupling 110% of their costs! 

I can have many more buyers ready and able to buy a house that is $30-50k less because the basement isn't finished yet, who would be willig to finish it off their way than who would buy a house $50k more with a basement not finished off they way they want.


Good Luck and enjoy


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

LNG

Some one posted a thread yesterday interested in purchasing an enclosed trailer.


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## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks for the advice. I'll get some pictures of the floorplan up shortly and try to get some suggestions. A couple things weren't working out in the design so I made some pretty radical changes that I think will work out for the better.

In regard to the basement. I just do that work myself in my spare time. Once labor is removed from the equation, I've generally been able to get a return on the money. It costs very little to finish off the basement. We definitely don't need the space or the extra bedrooms. We have no kids, so three bedrooms above ground is already too many. I'll evaluate the situation when we are ready move. Chances are that I'll already have another build under way and won't have the time or energy to finish the basement off later.




LNG24 said:


> Post some pictures as you progress.
> 
> Just another thing for thought. When I build or use to build my basements, I had them do 9' walls. Then I could run all the duct work I needed and not have to worry about pushing the ceiling under 8' Weight out the costs with that as opposed to the trusses. Then you can have a maze of duct work and never worry. Of course you would need to install either a hung ceiling or run steel studs under the duct work and install the sheetrock to that.
> 
> ...


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## steva (Mar 26, 2008)

LNG24 said:


> Post some pictures as you progress.
> 
> Just another thing for thought. When I build or use to build my basements, I had them do 9' walls. Then I could run all the duct work I needed and not have to worry about pushing the ceiling under 8' Weight out the costs with that as opposed to the trusses. Then you can have a maze of duct work and never worry. Of course you would need to install either a hung ceiling or run steel studs under the duct work and install the sheetrock to that.
> 
> ...


I agree with your last part, where ppl are much more willing to buy a house with an unfinished basement. Ive had plenty of occurances where ppl hire me again one or two years down the road, sometimes right off the bat, to finish the basements. I suppose they like the fact that they put some "work" or say into how the house should look, if only for the basement. Its hard to recoup basement finishing costs when like you said, you install kitchens, bathrooms etc. I also keep my basements 9ft ceilings, and with the right duct work, i usually keep my cielings at 9ft with a few bulk heads here and there.... it is much better to pay a little more then go through the hassle of creating dropped cielings


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