# Dimming LED's



## philcav7 (Jan 15, 2009)

I did a kitchen with 10 Halo 6" cans and no lamps were decided by the customer prior to installation. The cans are wired on Lutron toggler CL 3 way switches which are rated at 150W cfl/led. 

Customer purchased utilitech LED baffles and installed them. After warming up, the lights flicker/strobe randomly. I've adjusted the dimmers but cant eliminate the flickering all together. It is now a minimal flicker and only impacting a couple of bulbs. 

My supplier suggested pass & Seymour with a higher rating on led/cfl and ordered some for me. He said he's seen problems with lutron running at 130W+ 

I would like to add, the lights flickered a little with some par30 cfl's as well so I can't directly say it the cheap led lamps he purchased. 

Can anyone share any experience/thoughts on this? I know dimming LEDs can be problematic, but I need a sound resolution to please this client. 

These are the lamps the customer is using:

http://m.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-Pro...s-Fits-Housing-Diameter-5-in-or-6-in/50213665


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Heres a list of compatibles on lutron site:
http://www.lutron.com/technicaldocumentlibrary/3682066_CFL_LED_Bulb_list.pdf

I imagine it may have to do with loading 130w but then again, the overloading should just increase the heat at dimmer and possibly ruin it.

I dont understand LED ballasts very well so they may react differently on fully loaded dimmer


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## mstrat (Jul 10, 2013)

I've not run into this yet with LED's...my initial thought was that it's related more to the Utilitech brand and that you should try some higher end lights...sounds like you've come up with that on your own though...Do keep us informed with what works, it could be a new 'thing' with LED's...dimming them could continue to be interesting problems.


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## philcav7 (Jan 15, 2009)

It did flicker when there were 4 cfl's installed (temporarily) as well. Cust purchased the lamps, it wasn't in the contract for me to supply bulbs. The client didn't like the open space around a br30, the br40 are too long, and didn't like the look of the par38 lens. These led baffles are what they liked, so I need to try and deal with the cards I'm dealt. 

I'm going to pull one of the dimmers and replace with a regular 3 way switch as well. Perhaps that may resolve it. I've used two dimmers on 3 way before with no adverse reaction, but who knows...


Thanks for the list, dielectric.


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## vconstruction (Apr 1, 2007)

I am using these same LEDs on my current job also with a dimmer on a three way. It said on the dimmer not to use two of them together. One side has to be a regular three way switch. Ours are working perfect. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Didnt even catch that you were using two dimmers... I would scratch that and try only one dimmer. I cant imagine how that could work properly but ive never tried it


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

If you want to use 2 dimmers you need to upgrade to the Maestro, with the dimmer/companion setup. As others have pointed out, 2 dimmers with the Diva and other non-Maestro CL dimmers is not OK with Lutron.


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## mstrat (Jul 10, 2013)

Ah! I totally missed that too...don't double dim them...that will mess things up.


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## philcav7 (Jan 15, 2009)

I pulled the second dimmer and replaced with a standard switch...the strobing/flickering still continued. 

I put in one of the P&S 450w dimmers and it seemed that the problem may be resolved. I saw no flickering on the P&S, but it was very intermittent on the lutron as well...sometime going 2-3 hours without flickering. 

Hopefully, it's resolved.


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## philcav7 (Jan 15, 2009)

Update:

I received a call from the client and was informed that they are still flickering (after nearly 6 hours of running time). Tomorrow, I will pull the dimmer and install standard 3 way switch at both ends to see what happens. 

Besides a faulty lamp(s), what else could be the cause?

The cans are wired on a 15A dedicated lighting circuit along with led under cabinet lights (not dimmed, but on their own 3 way switch). Powered is supplied at the fixture for the can lights. 

At times one or more of the lamps with have a slight flicker, other times multiple lamps will strobe at the same time like a disco club. Then for hours they work perfectly. 

Any thoughts on any potential causes on my end, besides the lamps?


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Not to detract from the point, but - curious - on this type of job, do you bill T&M the whole way or are you working off a rough price?

I dont have a ton of experience working independently, and the time that i have has been a lot of underestimating/undercharging.


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## mstrat (Jul 10, 2013)

philcav7 said:


> Update:
> 
> I received a call from the client and was informed that they are still flickering (after nearly 6 hours of running time). Tomorrow, I will pull the dimmer and install standard 3 way switch at both ends to see what happens.
> 
> ...


My normal style of trouble shooting is to go one step at a time. I'd switch out the dimmers to both be normal 3-way switches...the most basic you can get without any frills. If indeed the disco stops and everything is normal, you win...switch ONE to be a dimmer. If the disco is still gone: you win. Collect the check and go home. A double dimmer is asking for troubles...don't do it....especially with LED's.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

dielectricunion said:


> Not to detract from the point, but - curious - on this type of job, do you bill T&M the whole way or are you working off a rough price?


If you're not thoroughly grounded in "this type of job", obviously the only reasonable way is T&M.

Leaving aside the question of whether you ought to be doing such work if you don't have the experience or technical knowledge to deal with it. :whistling


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

Tinstaafl said:


> If you're not thoroughly grounded in "this type of job", obviously the only reasonable way is T&M. Leaving aside the question of whether you ought to be doing such work if you don't have the experience or technical knowledge to deal with it. :whistling


 i dont normally sell electrical jobs. Ive definitely done a handful for regular clients within my abilities. Im just curious.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Is the dimmer turned off, or just fully dimmed? It's not the same. Have you set the dimmer minimum adjustment?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Is the dimmer turned off, or just fully dimmed? It's not the same. Have you set the dimmer minimum adjustment?


Even the Lutron adaptive phase neutral dimmers don't turn off completely until you pull the air gap.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

I have had good luck with the Halo LED cans and modules - not the basic ones, but the step up to the $100 (approximately) light module. They stay off at dimmer minimum, and in a multi-light branch flick on at very nearly the same threshold. No need for the air gap.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> I have had good luck with the Halo LED cans and modules - not the basic ones, but the step up to the $100 (approximately) light module. They stay off at dimmer minimum, and in a multi-light branch flick on at very nearly the same threshold. No need for the air gap.


No one actually uses the airgap, they are just there to make UL cert. For LED lights use either a reverse phase or adaptive phase neutral dimmer and you will have great success.


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## philcav7 (Jan 15, 2009)

dielectricunion said:


> Not to detract from the point, but - curious - on this type of job, do you bill T&M the whole way or are you working off a rough price?
> 
> I dont have a ton of experience working independently, and the time that i have has been a lot of underestimating/undercharging.


Installing light fixtures was part of the kitchen remodel. At this point, it's costing me T&M. I'm just trying to satisfy the client and provide a fully functioning solution for the lamps he bought. 



CarpenterSFO said:


> Is the dimmer turned off, or just fully dimmed? It's not the same. Have you set the dimmer minimum adjustment?


I did play with it on the lutron. Flickering occurs any any dimming level. The P&S auto calibrates upon powering up and has 12 manual settings for both high and low level. I didn't get into any manual adjustments, due to how infrequent the flickering may occur...I could literally spend an entire day pressing a button and waiting for it to flicker. 



Inner10 said:


> No one actually uses the airgap, they are just there to make UL cert. For LED lights use either a reverse phase or adaptive phase neutral dimmer and you will have great success.


The P&S is selectable for F/R phase. They recommend F for mlv and R for elv. I have not determined what these utilitechs are the paperwork didn't indicate and have no website. I was using it in forward phase. 

Today, they worked flawlessly on a standard switch. I guess I will play with the P&S some more and perhaps try the maestro as well. I read reviews on lowes website me didn't see any complaints about dimmer compatibility...just my luck :/

Thanks again all. I've learned to spec light bulbs in my contracts going forward. I never imagined this much grief over something so simple.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

If they are LED, RF is typically the answer.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> ... use either a reverse phase or adaptive phase neutral dimmer ...


Now I'm going to have to look those up so I can pretend to know what they mean.

Edit: Well, that was too easy:

http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/LutronDimmingBasics.pdf


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