# Keep 14 year old van or lease new sprinter?



## needs glasses (Aug 12, 2014)

Hi guys, I'm off to work and wanted to ask a quick question before I head out the door.

I have a 14 year old Chevy Astro van, I've had it since new, leased it and bought the lease out and have had it owned for years now.

Van is still going good, has it's issues but nothing major, at least at the moment.

It has a custom roof rack that is lowered to allow me to get into the relatively secure underground parking where I live. 

Also signage, a tow bar and decked out in the back to be really efficient for the small van that it is.

It looks old, but it's a trades van and not an embarrassment to drive to the job in.


Anyway fast forward to now and having been on this forum for a while, I've started to reboot my business (Big thank you to Contractor talk!)

This has got me looking at vehicles, and the other day I took a Mercedes Sprinter van for a test drive.

I stepped in the back of that thing and it was like heaven.... I could actually stand up instead of kind of leaning in and over gear on the floor to get to shelves like I do in my Astro van.

It's easy to see how if I got the Sprinter I'd get it decked out and have everything where I can see it, this would also make putting things away a lot easier, especially at the end of the day when I'm tired and not really feeling like it.

A couple of things on the downside are the high roof, I won't be able to park in the underground where I live and also get into underground parking on the occasional job. But that's something I'd just put up with.


Now the only thing is the cost! (I'm a thrifty type)

To lease it I'd be looking at a monthly bill of around $600 to 700!

Whereas the bill from my current van is just the maintenance (around $150 a month) But of course as it gets older that's likely to increase.

I'd save a bit on gas I think... lets say a $50 a month saving?

I'm not quite sure how the tax write offs would work out? I know the lease is a monthly expense as opposed to if bought then depreciation is the write off.

So would it be that my tax bill is reduced by the amount of the monthly lease. 

Lets say i paid 10K a year in tax and the new lease is 4k a year, then tax bill would then be 6k?


If it was a choice between scenario 1.
Keep old van 
1. Miss out on lease cost to write off against tax.
2. keep banging head on roof and inefficient for what I need.
3. 14 year old gas technology puts more on gas bill.
4. 150 a month maintenance cost.
5. don't feel particularly good in this old van.

scenario 2.
1. Tax bill reduction.
2. a huge jump up in efficiency and image.
3. gas/diesel savings.
4. no maintenance cost ( I think first 3 years servicing included in lease)
5. Drive around in a new vehicle and feel like I'm getting the benefit of owning a business, not just a job)

If it were like that then the decision would be easy.

Can anyone in the know give me the scoop on true cost of leasing a van when a small sole proprietor like I am.

Thanks in advance.


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## Jeepkid (Feb 19, 2014)

Another question or concern i would have is what if your van has a major break down. And you will be without it for a few days to weeks. I have thought about the van and sprinter issue but i think for my situation i will go with a trailer. I do projects not maintenance items.


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

Don't forget your insurance will go up as well. And sometimes Diesel is harder to find than gas (in my area anyway). If your current vehicle still looks good enough, consider keeping it and taking that $6-700 a month payment and saving it in a savings account to see how well you get along without the 'extra' money for a few months. If you do OK for 6 months or so, you'll have a bigger down payment and you'll be used to having less money in your pocket every month. I do that for a year when I'm wanting a new vehicle. I put $10K down on my last van and got 0% financing for 3 years.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

66 Shelby said:


> Don't forget your insurance will go up as well. And sometimes Diesel is harder to find than gas (in my area anyway). If your current vehicle still looks good enough, consider keeping it and taking that $6-700 a month payment and saving it in a savings account to see how well you get along without the 'extra' money for a few months. If you do OK for 6 months or so, you'll have a bigger down payment and you'll be used to having less money in your pocket every month. I do that for a year when I'm wanting a new vehicle. I put $10K down on my last van and got 0% financing for 3 years.


BINGO!... :clap:

Consider, you are just getting back up and running... by putting off the added expense and instead saving the $600-$700/month, you will ge to see if your business can support it... then keep your eyes out for the same Mercedes, but used...

OWN it... and continue making payments to yourself instead of a bank... then you have an asset PLUS capital to continue moving up the ladder...


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Get the new van. It will make you that much more productive to where your increased profits will justify the cost. Driving a 14 year old van is great if you're just starting out. Saving the money is worth the inconvenience when you are building your business. But now that you've reached a point of leveling off, it's time to go to the next level and the new Sprinter will take you there. 

Also, take into consideration that right now you are driving someone else's van. Surely you own it but that Astro can be a good stepping stone for an up and coming newbie that's working out of the trunk of his Hyundai. 

That's pretty much how I felt about letting my Astro go when I "upgraded" to my Transit Connect. Mine was over 20 years old and it was the best van that I've ever had. Once I realized that it was time to help someone else's dreams come true, I put the "For Sale" sign on it and never looked back. 

And if I still have not convinced you to upgrade, I can tell you that there is NOTHING like driving new! :thumbsup: When you drive new, you don't get paranoid by certain noises, rattles, burning smells, etc. You just get in it and drive and think nothing else about it until it's time for the scheduled maintenance. 

When I drove the old van, I always had a constant tickertape of maintenance and repair items rolling through my head. Every time I heard a noise or smelled an odor, I thought to myself, "Starter, alternator, battery, water pump, serpentine belt, transmission, fuel pump..." and while I enjoyed not having a car note, I enjoy not having to think about those other things much more.


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## Windwash (Dec 23, 2007)

Best thing would be to run it by your accountant.


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## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

Just Make sure you know who has the rights to the vehicle at the end of the lease. 

I looked into a Sprinter lease 3 months ago that had a low residual value and asked about the process to keep it at the end. I was told if it is good they keep it and if it has damage or overmiles, they charge you for that then keep it.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

when i first started out with nothing i didnt even have a 14 year old van.....why are you considering keeping something that old?

i get new vans every 5 years...i dont want leaks and break downs...1 break down will cost me $1,000-$2000 in revenue.............plus your van is your image.....at 14 years old its telling customers your not doing well enough to afford a new one....

i have $400 a month budgeted towards truck payments...thats around 50 cents an hour....if you cant afford one simply add 50 cents onto your hourly rate and your set.....i dont see any excuse for a 14 year old van unless your barely in business...if your successful show it!

do whatever you have to do and get a new one


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Pearce Services said:


> Just Make sure you know who has the rights to the vehicle at the end of the lease.
> 
> I looked into a Sprinter lease 3 months ago that had a low residual value and asked about the process to keep it at the end. I was told if it is good they keep it and if it has damage or overmiles, they charge you for that then keep it.


That is not a normal commercial vehicle lease and I know it is not a normal Sprinter lease from MB. That is more like a rental agreement. 

Something does not make sense if they told you what the residual value was, but you would never have a chance to purchase it. :blink:


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

I would never buy a used Sprinter, a new one yes not used.


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## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

rrk said:


> That is not a normal commercial vehicle lease and I know it is not a normal Sprinter lease from MB. That is more like a rental agreement.
> 
> Something does not make sense if they told you what the residual value was, but you would never have a chance to purchase it. :blink:


This is from the offer "An FMV lease is a closed-end lease." 

and actually it is a nice deal $439 per month for 36 months

http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/sprinter/special-offers


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## mstrat (Jul 10, 2013)

huggytree said:


> when i first started out with nothing i didnt even have a 14 year old van.....why are you considering keeping something that old?
> 
> i get new vans every 5 years...i dont want leaks and break downs...1 break down will cost me $1,000-$2000 in revenue.............plus your van is your image.....at 14 years old its telling customers your not doing well enough to afford a new one....
> 
> ...


What are you talking about??? You're saying that adding 50 cents an hour to get $400 a month? That's 800 hours a month that you're working...200 hours a week...that's more hours than there are in a week. I'm assuming that's you and some employees...but your math doesn't add up in any way!


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

That is a typical lease, you do have the option to purchase it at the end of the lease. In your fist post I think you said they keep it no matter what. It is possible the dealer was not explaining it correctly. The residual value at the end is the deciding factor in keeping it or not at the end of the lease

I had 3 of those leases, no issues at the end at all. Commercial leases are different that consumer car leases, they do not charge for minor damage or normal commercial wear.

That is a very good deal.

Here is more info on that lease

https://www.daimler-truckfinancial.com/inet/pdf/FUSO_FMV.pdf

MB owned by Diamler who also owns Fuso


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

By all means... get into debt as you are just re-starting up... :whistling

At a minimum, keep your current van for at least 6 months and build up your capital reserves...


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Have you paid off all your debt and your mortgage? If not, drive that astro into the ground. 

I have a 04 tundra thats paid for. Out of debt but still have a mortgage. I should be able to get another five years out of my truck. Yhat five years in an older vehicle vs. A 40k sprinter is going to pay off my house.

Sam Walton kept the same pickup for decades. He did ok I guess.


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## needs glasses (Aug 12, 2014)

Thanks for the input.

One thing I should have made clearer when I said I'm re booting my business. 

I think it would have been better to say Im re examining and stepping up my game of the business that I have now. 

The business I have now I've had since I first bought the Astro van 14 years ago! 

So to re cap I have a very established business, lots of work. 

So what I'm thinking is that OK, I don't pay any monthly payments on the Astro van. 

However, I pay income taxes, and fill up gas on a 14 year old motor. 

Also it's my only vehicle and I've eaten in it, slept in it, drove from Canada to Mexico in it, carried many a ton of gear in it, even had a rat lived in it once. (it was hidden in the pocket where the bottom bracket of side door slides into)

I guess it's an accounting question. 

For example; If I pay 10k tax now, but I lease a vehicle for say 7k a year and my tax bill is reduced to 3k? Then I'd rather have a nice sprinter van and pay the money to Mercedes Benz than have my current van and pay the income tax.

Also if I saved money on gas from having new gas milage technology, + the efficiency of the high roof and more storage space, then I think I'll go for a new van.

I think I have to seek out some knowledge as to just exactly how it would all work out. I asked my accountant already but kind a got a non answer.

I was of the thinking of most guys on here in thinking 'hey it's a decent van, it costs nothing in payments each month' but I'm thinking it does cost in that I'll pay taxes or I'll pay a lease instead.

I'll post what I find out from the financial advice I'll be seeking out over next couple of days.


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## needs glasses (Aug 12, 2014)

Metro M & L said:


> Have you paid off all your debt and your mortgage?
> 
> I



I have paid off all my debt as of last month, taxes up to date and no credit card debt. I have a mortgage but I'm not fighting to pay that one down in a hurry. I have tenants in part the house that make it manageable and thats enough for now.


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## mstrat (Jul 10, 2013)

needs glasses said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> One thing I should have made clearer when I said I'm re booting my business.
> 
> ...


Short answer is no...that's not how a tax benefit works. you'd be taking your income level down $7k, so depending on your tax bracket (let's just say ~20% for example)...you'd get to take $7k off your income, making the tax break more like $1400...so now the van lease is costing you $5,600 instead of $7,000. The truth is, don't take my word for this either though...ask your accountant and tell me if I'm right as I'm NOT anything like an accountant...I'm a friggin carpenter 

Now add in any fuel savings (but be truthfully honest about it, most people over-guess this one (and think gas vs diesel if that's the case and increased average diesel cost)) and maintenance savings (gas vs diesel, I'm a gasser so I can't help you with the differences)...add in insurance differences. Don't forget, if there's gonna be a $2000/year fuel savings, technically speaking you're looking at $2,000/year in increased profits, so there's a tax disadvantage (though let's be honest, gas is taxed highly already!). Just some fuel for thought...again I'm no pro, just my understanding of things!


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

needs glasses said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> One thing I should have made clearer when I said I'm re booting my business.
> 
> ...


Consider, if after 14 years of having the vehicle, of which I assume most of which you weren't making payments other than maintenance, and you didn't have the actual cash to step up to the next level of vehicle without strapping yourself with a loan, you may want to re-consider... 

I understand based on your post you WANT a new one, and we all can justify anything, but do you NEED a new vehicle is the question...

IMHO, if you don't have 3-6 months of capital reserves and emergency fund, if have balances on credit cards or trade accounts, or if you haven't set up any type of retirement accounts and funded those (14 years later being in business), based on those considerations, I would instead encourage to do exactly that...

THEN, if you can still afford the payment, after all those obligations are taken care of, you may want to look at it... 

I'd still encourage you to find the same vehicle used with a warranty, that you can get with your trade and cash... then continue saving for a year or two and trade up again...

The difference is your company needs (i.e. - capital reserves, emergency account, credit cards/trade accounts paid) will be taken care of, and more importantly your retirement needs will be taken care of... 

the bank wants to use your time to make the interest off you... you'd be better off learning from this, and use time to YOUR advantage as it relates to funding your retirement... 

You don't get that time back... and it costs you MUCH MUCH MORE later to achieve the same results than if you started now... certainly more than vehicle payment...

By delaying gratification on this, you put YOURSELF in the drivers seat... if you give in the siren call of financing, you find yourself as the vast majority of people do... in the back seat of the bank's car determining where you are going...

The auctions are FULL of business equipment purchases from companies who justified the expense...

If you can learn to live within your means and SAVE during the tight times, you will FLOURISH during the good times...

Best of luck... 8^)


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Consider buying something like this... spruce it up... and run it for another 100K miles while saving the money you would have spend monthly...

http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/nvn/cto/4724064304.html

Those panels are perfect for ads on what you do... Just a though...


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## needs glasses (Aug 12, 2014)

OK I think I have a better idea of true cost now. 

This is my working out sheet for* Extra *cost of Sprinter over current Astro van. 

I didn't include differences in gas/diesel cost as where I live gas is 1.38 a litre, diesel 1.44 a litre, so I figure any fuel mpg saving is cancelled by paying more for diesel over gas.

So really it just comes down to maintenance cost - insurance- lease cost less tax bill reduction.

Current monthly Astro van costs;

Maintenance 170
Insurance 155

total 325


New Sprinter van costs;

Maintenance 0.00
insurance 205
lease with 0 down 680 

Sub total 885

less tax break % 150

total 735

Cost of running a Mercedes Sprinter over current Astro van is around $410 a month more.

Say $110 a week. 

If I have 35 billable hours then 110 divided by 30 is $3.14 an hour EXTRA (not cost to run van in total) to run Sprinter over Astro.

So the question then becomes is it worth the $3.14 an hour to run around in a Sprinter?

I guess you can go on and on analyzing things but I'd say some of the obvious considerations are;

1. Current Astro situation won't last indefinitely as it's already an old van.

2. New high van can be decked out to be a lot more efficient for tools and storage.

3. Feel good factor of having a new vehicle that has spin offs into the business in general. I'm about ready to raise my rates, I have t-shirts on order and upgraded my website, checked around and realised I haven't raised my rates in far to long.

A new van would be a good bump to raise my rates to market level. 
Which would help to take care of the all important 'can I afford it' question.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

I would not buy a used sprinter unless it was maintained by a dealer and paperwork was available. Way too much can be wrong with it, at very high expense.


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## madmax718 (Dec 7, 2012)

I love the sprinters, but the transit connect is really awesome for its size. Just depends on what your using it for.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Depending on your business model, I say keep the van. I drove older vehicles too. I work mostly for other contractors, so my truck image is not as important as someone contracting directly from the public. As for the tax write offs, many times, driving an older vehicle can work out better than driving a new one. I always take the mileage deduction. 56 cents per mile regardless of how new, old, nice,crappy, beatdown, or pimped out your ride is.


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

I don't see why it has to be all or nothing. Meet in the middle. You can get a very dependable vehicle that is newER for a lot less coin that will be very dependable. I drive an 08 E-350 and am very happy with its dependability. For me it was at the sweet spot on price, dependability, function, and comfort. I paid $8k less than a year ago.

Talk to your tax man about where you are at. Certain vehicles are eligible for 100% expensing up to $25k this year under section 179. Buying the wrong vehicle could mean throwing a huge tax break down the drain. Talk to a good tax guy. I'm not sure a sprinter qualifies.


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

A couple of things - I didn't realize you want to LEASE a van. When you lease a vehicle and turn-in time comes, the dealer will go over it with a fine toothed comb looking for anything and everything to charge you for. Scratches, dings, tires, brakes, etc will have to be repaired/replaced to _their_ satisfaction. Your maintenance records will be scrutinized and it all should have been done at an 'Authorized Repair Center' or they'll put the screws to you. The contract will have some ambiguous language about 'Normal wear and tear' and it means squat to you, but means they want the vehicle in like-new condition before they'll sign off on the return. It could cost you thousands, or what will happen is they'll offer to sell it to you. But then, what's the point of leasing it, if you have to buy it anyway? Plus they only allow a certain amount of miles per year and some leases are _yearly_ mileage allowances - they check when you bring it in for maintenance and report it to the leasing company. When you go over the allotted miles it gets expensive QUICK.

And another thing - Repairs and maintenance to diesel's are a good bit higher than gas vehicles. My work van is a diesel (Ford E350) and I love it, but an oil change is $125. Fuel filters (2) are $100, parts only - Labor is another $100 and they need to be changed every 20K miles.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

mstrat said:


> What are you talking about??? You're saying that adding 50 cents an hour to get $400 a month? That's 800 hours a month that you're working...200 hours a week...that's more hours than there are in a week. I'm assuming that's you and some employees...but your math doesn't add up in any way!


maybe i meant $2.22 an hour.....too much pot yesterday

add $2.22 an hour = $400 a month

$400 a month x 5 years = $24,000.....enough to get a new van every 5 years with a good trade in...

i paid $36k for my cube + $2000 for a wrap...in 5 years i hope to get $15k-18k for it w/ 100,000 miles.....which easily covers you with the $400 a month.

see i can do math when im sober


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

66 Shelby said:


> A couple of things - I didn't realize you want to LEASE a van. When you lease a vehicle and turn-in time comes, the dealer will go over it with a fine toothed comb looking for anything and everything to charge you for. Scratches, dings, tires, brakes, etc will have to be repaired/replaced to _their_ satisfaction. Your maintenance records will be scrutinized and it all should have been done at an 'Authorized Repair Center' or they'll put the screws to you. The contract will have some ambiguous language about 'Normal wear and tear' and it means squat to you, but means they want the vehicle in like-new condition before they'll sign off on the return. It could cost you thousands, or what will happen is they'll offer to sell it to you. But then, what's the point of leasing it, if you have to buy it anyway? Plus they only allow a certain amount of miles per year and some leases are _yearly_ mileage allowances - they check when you bring it in for maintenance and report it to the leasing company. When you go over the allotted miles it gets expensive QUICK.
> 
> And another thing - Repairs and maintenance to diesel's are a good bit higher than gas vehicles. My work van is a diesel (Ford E350) and I love it, but an oil change is $125. Fuel filters (2) are $100, parts only - Labor is another $100 and they need to be changed every 20K miles.


Commercial leases are not that way. I have been through several, no more than 10 minutes. One never even looked at it. They understand what normal wear and tear is on a commercial vehicle and do not nit pick. You can choose you mileage limits before signing the commercial lease all the way up to 50k miles a year. But it may actually be cheaper to pay the extra miles at lease end depending on per mile charge. All my leases were closed end leases with no termination fee.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

hard to know what your situation is like, but having a large payment sucks. its really nice to drive a new vehicle, but being saddled down and not having a guaranteed cash flow can add stress to marriage/family. 

my 2 cents, if you're getting a sprinter, buy it. if you can afford a 4yr loan, do it. then keep the van and cont to drive it. MB just gave it a facelift, and the current look may last until 2018 or later (I don't KNOW/haven't read this yet). I have an 08 that's paid for and will drive it for a long time, then when its time, hope to keep it as a backup...it's that good!


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## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

rrk said:


> Here is more info on that lease
> 
> https://www.daimler-truckfinancial.com/inet/pdf/FUSO_FMV.pdf


So is the FMV a number higher than the residual value? is the buyout based on book value or the preset residual?


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## NCMCarpentry (Apr 7, 2013)

How is there no maintenance to a new vehicle? 

Oil and filter changes...
Other various fluid changes
Tires
Brakes

or is this all included in the lease?


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## mstrat (Jul 10, 2013)

huggytree said:


> maybe i meant $2.22 an hour.....too much pot yesterday
> 
> add $2.22 an hour = $400 a month
> 
> ...


Ok, I'm better now...I think it's the first time that I was right on CT  (normally I'm horribly wrong!)


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

huggytree said:


> maybe i meant $2.22 an hour.....too much pot yesterday
> 
> add $2.22 an hour = $400 a month
> 
> ...


When I calculate all the expenses of a vehicle it comes close to $7.00 per hour. But I'm not drunk or stoned.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

needs glasses said:


> I have paid off all my debt as of last month, taxes up to date and no credit card debt. I have a mortgage but I'm not fighting to pay that one down in a hurry. I have tenants in part the house that make it manageable and thats enough for now.


I am having a hard time understanding why you would want to go back INTO DEBT now that you are out?... :blink:

You got off that rat wheel... don't go back on... remember, you NEVER get that time back...

I do find it interesting how when I talk to a lot of contractors, they tell me they can't afford a retirement account or capital reserves or an emergency fund, etc... and can't seem to raise their prices to accommodate these essential items, but for some reason, they can raise their rates to accommodate loans and credit card fees to the tune of THOUSANDS per year... for the BANKS... 

IMHO, put it off and RAISE YOUR RATES ANYWAY, but instead pay yourself, making sure your retirement is funded, you have 3-6 months of capital reserves and emergency fund, AND adding enough to save for the Sprinter... then when those items are funded, take the same money and ADD it to your Sprinter account supercharging the savings... This is using the SAME MONEY...

Then USE the exciting feeling of owning the Sprinter as motivation to get a jobs done early, and transfer the EXTRA profit (not the profit you pay your company) that you made, by getting the job done early, to an account specifically ear-marked for it...

Best of luck... 8^)


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

I looked at the sprinter van and was really impressed. 
I bought a ram pickup because it will be the one I retire with. 
If I was 5 yrs younger I would have gone with the van. 
My accountant told me many years ago, don't lease unless you have to. 
Works for me


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## needs glasses (Aug 12, 2014)

NCMCarpentry said:


> How is there no maintenance to a new vehicle?
> 
> Oil and filter changes...
> Other various fluid changes
> ...


The first 3 years is included in the lease.


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## needs glasses (Aug 12, 2014)

KAP said:


> I am having a hard time understanding why you would want to go back INTO DEBT now that you are out?... :blink:
> 
> You got off that rat wheel... don't go back on... remember, you NEVER get that time back...
> 
> ...


Actually that sounds like good solid advice! All of it.

And yes I agree why jump back on the debt go round again! I was back at the Sprinter dealer today, got him to knock 4.5 thousand off what he had originally said.
But I was looking at the lease finance rate of 5.49% and that kind of thing pisses me off. I hate paying my hard earned money to banks and financiers. 

I think I'll keep my Astro van for now. I've worked out of it for years. It all fits in the underground parking where I live and I have a customized roof rack and tow bar + big signage on the side. New battery, brakes, 

And I suppose best of all I owe nothing on it!


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

Keeping your van for now is fine, but always plan for a new vehicle. 
I learned this the hard way. We were running two trucks. Both paid for. I thought, there is nothing wrong with either I'm just going to save up money for a while. 
Then all of a sudden time snuck up on me. We were driving two trucks, one with 150,000 miles, and one with 175,000 miles. I was at the point I needed two trucks at once. 
I recently purchased a 2009 with 38,000 miles. The new truck gets better gas mileage and should have less repairs. (I didn't think the other one had much in repairs, until I looked back at vehicle repair expense for a year. Not to even count how many billable hours were missed due to minor breakdowns.) 
Now I plan to depreciate this one for 4 years and then buy another one. I plan on starting a continuous rotation with the intent of always having a monthly payment on something. I am considering it part of doing business.
The truck I drive has the 175,000 miles. I've driven it so much I am attached to it. Everything is where I want it. I'm so used to it, I don't even think about how it actually looks or it's actual mechanical condition. Yesterday it started dripping oil. Stuff like this is unacceptable to me. Luckily it wasn't on a customer's driveway. With this many miles things are bound to happen. I saved the 150,000 mile truck so I would have a back-up. 
With your Astro van, it could have a major breakdown anytime. They all could, but one with alot of miles and age is alot more likely. Keep an eye out for something newer.


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## needs glasses (Aug 12, 2014)

builditguy said:


> Keeping your van for now is fine, but always plan for a new vehicle.
> I learned this the hard way. We were running two trucks. Both paid for. I thought, there is nothing wrong with either I'm just going to save up money for a while.
> Then all of a sudden time snuck up on me. We were driving two trucks, one with 150,000 miles, and one with 175,000 miles. I was at the point I needed two trucks at once.
> I recently purchased a 2009 with 38,000 miles. The new truck gets better gas mileage and should have less repairs. (I didn't think the other one had much in repairs, until I looked back at vehicle repair expense for a year. Not to even count how many billable hours were missed due to minor breakdowns.)
> ...



Yes, it's true and it happened to me when I was on a long drive and I ended up having to get a different reconditioned engine put it. Cost a lot of money and really got me thinking about just how much do you really save running an older vehicle.

Also I only have the one vehicle. I'm not really interested in running another as Im either at work or the van is parked up and I walk or catch the bus.
So it is good to have something that feels good to drive around. 
Also I'm a single guy and if I go meet a women in my old van then they kind of look at me odd 

I'll have to think about it. I don't mind the idea of paying for a van, I mean it's a reality that driving costs at least something.

Im just not into the paying the banks my hard earned dollars for all that interest.

Maybe I'll save up and buy a used Sprinter in a year or so.


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

rrk said:


> Commercial leases are not that way. I have been through several, no more than 10 minutes. One never even looked at it. They understand what normal wear and tear is on a commercial vehicle and do not nit pick. You can choose you mileage limits before signing the commercial lease all the way up to 50k miles a year. But it may actually be cheaper to pay the extra miles at lease end depending on per mile charge. All my leases were closed end leases with no termination fee.


I didn't know that commercial leases were different, but that makes sense. I've never had one, only a regular lease when I was young and stupid. I learned my lesson the hard way.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

TxElectrician said:


> When I calculate all the expenses of a vehicle it comes close to $7.00 per hour. But I'm not drunk or stoned.



its not total vehicle expenses....its just for the van itself...and thats for a kick ass van at that!....i doubt most of you have a GMC 4500 -16' cube van .....most just need a 2500 base model..

at $7 an hour i assume your talking about including repairs and gas???

mine is 3 years old now.......i put $2,000 a year into it....tires/brakes every year.....i always buy the most expensive tires because of the 13,000 weight im hauling..and i need 6 of them


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## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

tired are not included in the maintenance, and there not cheap. Then there is the upfito f the truck you could do it yourself or end up paying up to $10k for a fully tricked out van. I looked at the sprinter too, but have a chevy express and two big vans was not the way for me to expand so I went with the transit connect. So depending on the job will choose which truck to send. Sometimes because our work is local I send both. Customers are generally surprised to see two trucks pull up to take care of them.


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## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

Almost forgot I took the transit in today and they had the new big transit. Was really nice I was looking at the price it looked like about $5k less than the sprinter, but the sales guy said equipped the same its only about $1,500.
I asked why anyone would buy the ford, and was told because its built well, I think the sprinter has that battle won. But perhaps thats why they are running lease specials, to try and crush the new release of the transit.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Pearce Services said:


> So is the FMV a number higher than the residual value? is the buyout based on book value or the preset residual?


A FMV lease there would not be a residual value at the start of the lease as far as I know. That's is what confused me with your first post. A FMV value would be a blue book value at the end, they can't predict what the blue book would be in 3 years. Maybe they can?

I would call Diamler financing directly an ask them your questions, I think your dealer may be confusing you.

The other lease which is being talked about here is the Sprinter Care lease which has higher interest rates and costs more. Oil changes at the dealer are over $300, fuel filter change over $200. Other more expensive maintenance starts above 50k.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Almost forgot I took the transit in today and they had the new big transit. Was really nice I was looking at the price it looked like about $5k less than the sprinter, but the sales guy said equipped the same its only about $1,500.
> I asked why anyone would buy the ford, and was told because its built well, I think the sprinter has that battle won. But perhaps thats why they are running lease specials, to try and crush the new release of the transit.


I think you are right about the specials.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

IMHO there isn't anything special about the Ford Transit other than their acceptance that the style of vans is changing over to the "French ambulance" style. GM will be on board soon.

What I like about my transit connect is that it's short in length but tall in height so I can get to anything without having to crawl inside. It was a good investment for me because I can work more efficiently. 

If you are looking to get that Sprinter and you have a steady stream of work coming in, it will pay for itself in the increased productivity alone.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

tedanderson said:


> If you are looking to get that Sprinter and you have a steady stream of work coming in, it will pay for itself in the increased productivity alone.


The auctions are FULL of machinery that was based on the same premise... 

Not saying it's always the case, but I've seen it so many times, I guess I am weary to advise this avenue...


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

KAP said:


> The auctions are FULL of machinery that was based on the same premise...
> 
> Not saying it's always the case, but I've seen it so many times, I guess I am weary to advise this avenue...


Not necessarily true, many are sold there after the leases were up. I know all of my leased trucks were. The commercial truck dealers just bring it to auction rather than sell it themselves.


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## needs glasses (Aug 12, 2014)

KAP said:


> Consider, if after 14 years of having the vehicle, of which I assume most of which you weren't making payments other than maintenance, and you didn't have the actual cash to step up to the next level of vehicle without strapping yourself with a loan, you may want to re-consider...
> 
> I understand based on your post you WANT a new one, and we all can justify anything, but do you NEED a new vehicle is the question...
> 
> ...



In the 14 years since I had the van??? Where to start? I've travelled a lot of the world, raised a kid on my own. Paid the bills for all those years.

6 years ago I bought a big house here in Vancouver, houses aren't cheap here, anyway I bought the house which has a lot of bedrooms. 

I painted every inch of it inside and out, fixed it up and I've rented out rooms to foreign students for 6 years now.

I won't go into details on here, but it's enough to say that I have my retirement fall back there. Also my mortgage + $ is paid every month! And I was recently offered over 200,000 more than what I paid for it.

The zoning here allows to build a small house out the back of the large house, and one day if I want to I can build the small house, live in that and run a B and B out the main house. 

So in short if I'm off work I have it covered, when I retire I have that covered to.

Thats partly the reason I'm looking at a new van. I mean realistically how long can a man expect to live? How many more vans is a 52 year old guy going to buy his career? 

It's also my only vehicle, so if I do anything or meet a women. Then that's the vehicle I'm using. And I calculated the other day that if I've farted in that van an average of 2 times a day then that's .. well a lot of gas. :thumbup:

But yes, I agree paying the banks is a bad idea and at the moment I'm putting the new van on hold.


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

you need to raise your prices and your standard of living if a 14 year old van is also your personal vehicle

you should be living a good/above average life as a business owner....with your van situation id say your living a workers life or worse!...

sorry to be harsh, but your situation shocks me a bit.......hopefully you have a good retirement plan and arent planning to live in your van and eat cat food when you turn 65...i dont think your current van will make it another 13 years until you retire


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

KAP said:


> The auctions are FULL of machinery that was based on the same premise...


The difference is that you HAVE work that's lined up in comparison to those who buy new equipment in HOPES that they will find more work.

Maybe this is a bad analogy but every time I put off getting a new tool... let's say a cordless drill, I justify not getting it by saying, "Oh, it will only take me a few extra minutes to run a drop cord. What's a little bit of inconvenience in exchange for a few extra bucks in my pocket?" While I think of everything that I can do with $250. 

Then that day come when I was on the other side of town, I needed a drill, and going to the local supplier saved me a 130 mile round trip journey back home. So I bought the cordless drill, did what I had to do, and I was in and out and on my way back home in less than an hour. 
:clap: One part of me was glad that I made the purchase, the other part was mad that I didn't to it sooner.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Besides... lets just be real here. Are you really saying, "I want a new van. Talk me out of it and tell me why this is a bad idea." OR are you asking, "Am I being stubborn because I won't replace my old van?"


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

I like the way MB takes care of me when servicing the sprinter-last time there was a service bulletin, I dropped it off and drove away in a C300 for the day, picked up the van at end of biz day.


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## needs glasses (Aug 12, 2014)

huggytree said:


> you need to raise your prices and your standard of living if a 14 year old van is also your personal vehicle
> 
> you should be living a good/above average life as a business owner....with your van situation id say your living a workers life or worse!...
> 
> sorry to be harsh, but your situation shocks me a bit.......hopefully you have a good retirement plan and arent planning to live in your van and eat cat food when you turn 65...i dont think your current van will make it another 13 years until you retire



Whats wrong with cat food?!


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

needs glasses said:


> Whats wrong with cat food?!



it gives you shiny hair and removes tarter from your teeth


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

tedanderson said:


> The difference is that you HAVE work that's lined up in comparison to those who buy new equipment in HOPES that they will find more work.
> 
> Maybe this is a bad analogy but every time I put off getting a new tool... let's say a cordless drill, I justify not getting it by saying, "Oh, it will only take me a few extra minutes to run a drop cord. What's a little bit of inconvenience in exchange for a few extra bucks in my pocket?" While I think of everything that I can do with $250.
> 
> ...


Big difference between a one-off purchase and one that follows you monthly for a few years... imagine if you bought it in 2007... how hard would it have been to maintain the payments after the crash...

Banks kept collecting their interest... :whistling


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

KAP said:


> Big difference between a one-off purchase and one that follows you monthly for a few years... imagine if you bought it in 2007... how hard would it have been to maintain the payments after the crash...
> 
> Banks kept collecting their interest... :whistling


If he did it your way he would have a $40k piece of steel sitting in his driveway. Whose value is dropping every day, even faster when the demand for that vehicle was dropping like a rock. If he leased it he could have $39500 sitting in the bank.

Everyone has their own ideas of which is best for them.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

If you want the new vehicle, fine. But there will be little financial benefit in getting something shiny and new. Might NE a minor tax break, but in the long run, driving hoopties its the financial route to take.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Just saying, a new van does not necessarily reflect a positive image. It reflects an image of a contractor who likely has a note to pay off, and, customer always pays. Now if one wants a vechicle that gives off a positive image, have an older vechicle that appears well maintained and organized.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

flashheatingand said:


> If you want the new vehicle, fine. But there will be little financial benefit in getting something shiny and new. Might NE a minor tax break, but in the long run, driving hoopties its the financial route to take.


I disagree, that one day of lost work not to mention the cost to repair said hooptie could have paid that entire payment. 

I have many customers who would shoot me if my truck dropped oil on their driveway.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Perhaps, but, based on the previous post, you replaced your new ride once every 4.2 years. Buh-dang.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

needs glasses said:


> Hey guys I've leased the van.
> 
> I've always got lots of work here where I live. Things didn't tank here like they did for you guys in the U.S. and I'm confident that making the payments won't create extra stress, I think realistically the roll that I'm on, I'll probably end up with more $ in my pocket at the end of the day due to upping my game. (and thanks to this forum too, it's great to be able to talk shop with others in the trades. My real time buddies just don't get it)
> 
> ...


Are you keeping the Astro as well?


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

flashheatingand said:


> Perhaps, but, based on the previous post, you replaced your new ride once every 4.2 years. Buh-dang.


Buh dang?

Your point?

I had 4 year leases for the first 3, bought the third after lease was up. The 4th I bought because lease rates were not favorable. When this warranty expires I will get another new one. 
All of them paid no money down except for trade in for #4. To me not having to worry about vehicle issues is big, when I turn the key I want it to start.

I would love to have a rust free suburban from the late 70s without all of the computers and crap but that may not happen. Here rust is a killer.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

The last new vehicle I bought was in the shop more than it was out, and I like not having a payment.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

My point was that, from a bean counting position, that was a lot of beans. I am a beater guy myself, and don't intend to hate on those who prefer new gear. To each their own.

We bought a new Kia a couple of years ago, and it's fine. But, somehow I closed the door on the seat belt buckle, which crunched a door sensor, which caused a phantom draw on a battery,...etc. Also, a replacement key cost $80. $80? What was wrong with the type that you could pick up at Ace for about $3?

I just want a ride that can take a beating, and has parts that are easily accessible, and readily available. Oh yeah, heat and music are nice.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

needs glasses said:


> Hey guys I've leased the van.
> 
> I've always got lots of work here where I live. Things didn't tank here like they did for you guys in the U.S. and I'm confident that making the payments won't create extra stress, I think realistically the roll that I'm on, I'll probably end up with more $ in my pocket at the end of the day due to upping my game. (and thanks to this forum too, it's great to be able to talk shop with others in the trades. My real time buddies just don't get it)
> 
> ...


Well now that you made the decision, no sense in looking back... enjoy it... :thumbsup:

Just don't forget to up your rates to cover the other things we discussed as well... with upping your game, put the extra $$ you think you are going to make because of it to work to make you money...

Also, when upping your rates, don't forget to take into account maintenance, tires, etc...

Best of luck... 8^)


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

flashheatingand said:


> Are you keeping the Astro as well?


Hope so... cheaper than renting the U-haul... :whistling


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## MarkNoV (Apr 29, 2006)

Keep in mind that any all the productivity gains resulting from the van belong to you, not your customers. 

Don't cut your prices in half, because now you can get it done in half the time ( I had a GC who wanted to do that)

Mark


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

KAP said:


> Hope so... cheaper than renting the U-haul... :whistling


Dont have to if there is a problem, they give you a loaner sprinter or another mb if you want.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

The other day I was driving down the road and thinking to myself how being inconvenienced and uncomfortable has a tendency to consume your mental and physical energy. So if you compare being able to walk inside of a van to get exactly what you need vs. having to climb, unstack, and unpack stuff every time you need something, and then you have to repeat the process every time you can't find something or you forget to put something back, that can wear on you after a while and you don't even realize it. 

The other thing that I thought of is guys who drive tractor-trailers. You can get a very nice used "day-cab" truck for about $20K and you can bring a sleeping bag, thermos, and cooler with you. Yet most truckers have sleeper cab rigs that cost well over $100K. Why is that? Why get a sleeper rig if the day cab truck can do the same thing?


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

MarkNoV said:


> Keep in mind that any all the productivity gains resulting from the van belong to you, not your customers.
> 
> Don't cut your prices in half, because now you can get it done in half the time ( I had a GC who wanted to do that)
> 
> Mark


Interesting concept. Perhaps for another thread. An impact drill does not cost a lot of money, yet has increased productivity mucho. Someone charges x / hour. But, is that based on a carpenter who uses a manual saw or a skill-saw (example)


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Really good point, should we add equipment charge ?


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

If you want to add an equipment charge, that's fine, but then one cannot you can only charge for the exact amount of time taken to do the job. I would say one is double dipping.

I was charged three hours for a water pump replacement from a mechanic. Granted, there was some disassembly of several pulleys...etc. But with all the pneumatic tools and all, it should not take three hours.

Either bill by the amount of time it should take with hand tools, or charge for equipment, but you should not charge for both.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

Not enough info about your bizz.
1. Can you be more productive with bigger van?
2. Your personal comfort? In order to do good work you have to be happy. So if you go to your van and get upset bc you cant find somthing you will not produce good product.
3. Are you doing a lot of small staff or big jobs? More than 4 weeks.
4. Dont think just money. If i would think just money i would never buy my festool truck saw or other great tools i use every day.
5. I would not lease i would only buy.

You not buying a boat. In my opinion either way you will do ok. I have 2005 express1500.
I need more cargo space and will buy something within 2 years.
I think in this bizz which can be stressfull motivation is very importent. You also need to be happy about geting up in the morining to go to work.
Buying 50k limited edition truck no good. Buying van is.
I would go for it. You will be fine. If you dont spent that money to step up your bizz you will on something else or your wife will. Might as well put the money back in to the company.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

I would not increase my rates just bc i bought new van. Your customer dont care what you drive but how productive you are. I woul keep the rates the same for 1 year and than rise it. This way they will learn how more productive you are and would not mind paying extra for better service. People dont mind paying more as long as they getting more in value as well.


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## Zack78 (Dec 1, 2009)

I would also consider investing money somewhere else. There is a lot of tools you can get for the price of sprinter


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

congrat's on the new ride. 

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=105 is a good source for info on the ride-a NCV3

I'm currently on the 2nd iteration of shelving in my van-all custom designed to house my tools. One of my favorite ideas was to mount a 30" tool box (bottom) just behind the passenger seat-it fits a LOT of tools. Let us know how you outfit it in the auto section of the site!


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

Have you got the new sprinter yet? How do you like it? I have been thinking about getting a used one. Just wanting some input.
Thanks


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