# HELP ex employee working with my competition going after my business accounts



## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Take the case of my favorite lumber yard rep. We met at yard A and he gave me the service I was looking for. He moved on to yard B so we shopped there for awhile. He was down sized there so him and our business moved on to yard C.

Non-competes are almost non-enforcable, cease and desist is worth a shot but may not work either. It's going to be a tough job getting Warner jazzed up on pepsi enough to be effective.

Might be time to work your own customer list and make sure those folks know your there for them. My best guess is there are going to be some losses. Work to minimize them and this to shall pass.

Good Luck
Dave


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

KAP said:


> Whether he signed one or not... you have a right to your contact info, and trade secrets, meaning proprietary info. The goodwill engendered by your salesperson as an employee of your company benefits the company, not the salesperson.
> 
> If you can't get a hold of the owner, a cease and desist letter to his new employer as well as him, detailing legal remedies, will send the right message and starts a legal chain. Who wants to bother going to court over it? A salesperson certainly doesn't. And it you address both of them separately legally, the salesperson will know he is exposed financially in having to hire a lawyer and get mired in a legal process.
> 
> ...


Good luck with that advice, your lawyer would love that plan. He could probably buy a new BMW from the fees needed to initiate AND FOLLOW THROUGH with that. Real world advice……...move on, let it go. Drum up more business!


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## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

Sometimes a salesperson, or even a technician has so much interaction with the customer, that they become the "face" of the company to the customer. The customers perception of your company (essentially your brand), is based on this set of experiences and relationships. If the customer see your brand this way, and likes your brand, they will follow.

I saw a similar thing happen at a previous employer, where a technician who was actually a subcontractor was allowed to become the only face to face interaction with a few remotely located accounts. The sales rep, the operations manager, and the owner of the company just neglected to cultivate any relationship at all with these accounts. So when a dispute over money didnt get settled to the subs satisfaction, he left, and so did a good number of accounts.

You need to develope a system to prevent any one person from becoming too cozy with your customers. You also need to train your sales people that they need to sell the "team" and focus on how the team works together to create the result.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

lawndart said:


> ........................there must be something I can do? .....................


You have replaced the salesman I suppose. The new salesman needs to do some work.

Sounds like some brand maintenance is in order.


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## mehtwo (Nov 14, 2010)

DavidC said:


> It's going to be a tough job getting Warner jazzed up on pepsi enough to be effective.


Maybe with some Pepsi 420?:blink::whistling


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

Sorry, theres a reason this guy is comming after you..theres alot more to this story. 

I do sales for a remodel company..if they screw me, yeah im taking my clients with me. And they will. 

Me and the company i represent have it pretty clear. Im good at what i do, ive also had my own biz..he knows what could happen if he screws me out of money. From the sounds of it, there was a disagreement between you and this guy. If i had to bet id say you screwed him. It may be in your best interest to go make ammends

In the world of professional sales, they are not working for you. True Reps pay their taxes as independent contractors..


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Lol.......This thread is about to get interesting.


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

shorty got ta what what:clap:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

:blink:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Oconomowoc said:


> A non-compete simply doesn't work. For starters, most people wouldn't want to spend the cash for an attorney to fight a case that can't be proven with any accuracy.
> 
> Just keep working hard at delivering value to the customer.


Plus, they usually don't hold up in court any way. You cannot keep someone from making a living. So I am a carpenter and leave your company, I can't go work for the competition? I can't use my knowledge to help me? It's a free market. I think that the threat of them taking our customers should keep us sharp and on our toes.


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

J F said:


> :blink:


it makes sence in my head


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

lawndart said:


> salesperson...Now he's come back into the picture going after my accounts. I tried calling his boss, but haven't heard back from him.


Why should his boss call you? In sales, it's all about producing money--for whoever hired him. If he's making money for his new boss, why would his boss call you?

This is a great example of what I've witnessed--americans hiring illegals, then training them in their trade over time, and when they know enough, they leave and now they are the american's competition--but using mexicans all around, so they undercut the market by a long shot. Then the americans (that hired them in the first place) start complaining about how lousy the market has become..... 

No noncompete = SOL.


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

In all realities, most on here are not full blown business's but rather contractors doing the work as owner/operators. Sales has it place in business, and it you want to play on a bigger stage in any game you need people that are good at it. Sales is an industry. In manufacturing it happens all the time, reps leaving and going to their competitors because they either havent been paid in a long time or the company screwed them. Its alot more dangerous for a company to loose a rep in that world than trades..theres not a whole lot of secrets in contstruction in regaurds to blueprints, patents and the way operatoins are set up. When you are talking technology..its a concern.


I think TNT hit it dead on, they have to make a living too..which is why i think theres more to this story. There was a reason this guy left and went on..and 9 times out of 10 its because they got screwed.

No Offense to the OP but this thread is pretty funny. You must not have good control of your business..and there is a fundamental problem lying in the relationships with those you hire. Its also on your end. Once you accept and learn to deal with it..you wont be stuck crying for help


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

lawndart said:


> I found out that he is now calling the office to recruit valuable employees for his new boss...
> ...
> I allowed this person to develop key relationships while working for me


So now you'll find out how good a boss you've been, how good of relationships you actually have. I am honest and loyal and expect the same from those I work with, work for, and 'hire'. If they want to jump ship for other than money, then that's my fault. If they want to jump ship for money, then either they're stupid or I'm seriously underpaying them. If they want to hire someone else for less money, then that's their fault. 

No time for BS.


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## lawndart (Dec 3, 2006)

WOW .. Lots of interesting responses, and most of them are exactly what I was expecting.

Without going into too much detail. He was let go, because it was discovered that he was under bidding jobs purposely in hopes of closing more deals. That along with some new personal problems that surfaced at the time, forced my hand..


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## lawndart (Dec 3, 2006)

CO762 said:


> Why should his boss call you? In sales, it's all about producing money--for whoever hired him. If he's making money for his new boss, why would his boss call you?
> 
> This is a great example of what I've witnessed--americans hiring illegals, then training them in their trade over time, and when they know enough, they leave and now they are the american's competition--but using mexicans all around, so they undercut the market by a long shot. Then the americans (that hired them in the first place) start complaining about how lousy the market has become.....
> 
> No noncompete = SOL.


I have no problem with him making money for his new boss, but when his employee is calling my office during business hours to hire, and recruit my current employees, that is unprofessional IMO.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

lawndart said:


> ...he was under bidding jobs purposely in hopes of closing more deals. That along with some new personal problems that surfaced at the time, forced my hand..


So sounds like it was his time to go.
And now the people left in your office will weigh him and his issues against you. If they leave for him, that tells you about them and him. If they choose you, that tells you about them and you.

As far as customers, there's always someone willing to do it for less.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

lawndart said:


> that is unprofessional


Which is why he long longer clogs up your business. 
Sounds like he doesn't have a lot of self confidence and is vindictive--not good traits for anyone.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I find it amazing the assumptions going on here. Lawndart has had some good threads on CT and seems to have his stuff together. 

Its not fair to assume he is screwing the salesman, that's BS. Salesman are a dime a dozen but a good salesman is rare. Usually they are humble and reserved people. But like I said, that's extremely rare and good salesman never say "I'm good". Lol

My bet is this so called salesman is a joke and the new job he got is run by a small guy with big ideas promising the world to him but probably can't deliver the goods. This won't end well for that salesman. Like most of them he will spend the rest of his career job jumping until he can collect Social Security. In the mean time though, he will do his best to destroy past employers instead of focusing on selling. 

It's just my hunch but this isn't my first rodeo. Either way, my bet is on Lawndart. Hes proven to be a smart and logical business owner. I just don't believe he's shafting his employee. Lol.


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

lawndart said:


> I have no problem with him making money for his new boss, but when his employee is calling my office during business hours to hire, and recruit my current employees, that is unprofessional IMO.


It is unprofessional. But the question is now for you, are they leaving to go with him or are they staying with you? If they leave, you didnt want them there anyway..there was no trust.

From what you are saying, this guy is a loose cannon type..by personal problems i wouldnt be surprised if it was drugs. My appologies for claiming that you screwed him over, it happens alot in this industry.

Next question would be for you, as a sales person where did you set his income. commision? did you set a pay scale, IE, par @10% below par incurring penalties on that percentage . If he sold the job above par, were you splitting that overage with him?

The company i represent does not give me incentive to sell below par. Par meets their margins to remain profitable, i always try and sell above par so i can get the overage on top of my commision. I wont close the deal unless it is within 1-2% of par, unless it is windows and the company is trying to fill the quota neccessary to get bulk discount in which case i will allow that number to drop to 3% because the company will still make more money with the discounts on the material


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Spaint90 said:


> When they work off commission, strictly and that commision fluxtuates based on the amount for a specific job you have incentive. When there is a point they cant make anything you protect your margins. When there is incentive to sell above margins for the salesperson it will happen more often.


And this is why it's more the product that is trusted. We all know that salesmen make a commission and will be tempted to protect their interest over the customers.


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> And this is why it's more the product that is trusted. We all know that salesmen make a commission and will be tempted to protect their interest over the customers.


Right which is why its important that they trust you..


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## oktex56 (Dec 30, 2011)

The last sales position I held as a salesperson for a remodeling co the leads were followed very carefully as to origin, cost and close ratio.

I remember each lead cost 250+ dollars. National average was more...

Highest close ratio were past customers, next referrals, next showroom leads, etc. Worst was home show leads...lol

We had 5% wiggle room to price with. Straight commission.

We all worked closely with the owner keeping track of these %'s. He spent about 250K at the time per year in advertising.

I agree 100% that referrals from reputation are the backbone of good business, from hard work, honesty and good old fashioned integrity. 

I had my eyes opened to another dimension of possibilities when properly trained.

My point with all this is that there are metrics to track all lead types and close ratios against national averages.

Each one has merit if they can be closed and converted to a sale. 

I was amazed at how much was to be learned on the subject and also how many could out sell me until I learned a few things.

I never want to be thought of as one of the Tin Men but I regret not selling quite a few because of my perceptions which were wrong.

Steve:thumbup:


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

One thing that I learned is that if a former employee steals your employees, it's just a testament of how good you are at what you do and what you are able to produce. 

Good employees are hard to find, train, and build up. But you did it..and you can do it again. People who steal from other companies can't train and build people so their situation is short lived. And unfortunately it becomes a lose/lose situation for all parties but the difference is that you have the ability to recover.

This situation happened in my Dad's company many years ago. He payed the sales staff wages and commissions that were higher than any other company, had better benefits, access to informational resources, etc. So after that first salesman got fired, the guy called up all of the other sales people and promised them that they would get paid DOUBLE what my dad was paying if they came to work for him.

Well long story short, they all came back begging for their jobs months later but by then the entire staff had already been replaced.

And one thing that I learned through all of that is that turnover just comes with the territory.


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## lawndart (Dec 3, 2006)

tedanderson said:


> One thing that I learned is that if a former employee steals your employees, it's just a testament of how good you are at what you do and what you are able to produce.
> 
> Good employees are hard to find, train, and build up. But you did it..and you can do it again. People who steal from other companies can't train and build people so their situation is short lived. And unfortunately it becomes a lose/lose situation for all parties but the difference is that you have the ability to recover.
> 
> ...


Nobody has left my company, except my ex salesperson. He has tried to recruit my current employees, but they are still working with me.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Spaint90 said:


> Right which is why its important that they trust you..


Around and around we go...

Trust you how? Enough to hand over a check? To deliver their baby? To catch them when they are falling?

Here is the definition of Trust:

a : assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something b : one in which confidence is placed 

How do you make the leap from just meeting a person to three hours later having an assured reliance on the character of that person, if that person never shows you one example of their work? That never gives you something to hang your hat on.

I know of no one that will hand a perfectly good stranger a large check without seeing proof of their work. With that said, once the sales person shows them examples of their previous work, the trust is no longer built on the personal relationship of the salesperson, but the product.

You are still not going to convince me that the sales person doesn't use their past work as a way to gain trust. Even the guy starting off has done the work before and will have examples of his work. Or they will collect evidence that will prove they are legit. Such as pictures of their cabinet makers work, or their painters work. If their is the exception to the rule than so be it, but the vast majority of companies will create trust by providing evidence and proofs that their work and reputation have delivered in the past.

I would also agree that it's possible that a sales person can take their clients with them, but in all honesty, it again is the exception and not the rule. Once you find a contractor that produces good work, it really is out of the sales persons hands. They don't run the show once the contract is signed. They don't run the project and they would get their arse kicked if they showed up on site and started telling the foreman how to run his job. In all practicality they are off concerning themselves with their next sale and commission check.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Shoot me.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Shoot me.


Where (as in location on the body), Where (as in location of shooting), and when?


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

LawnDart -

When you fired him, you cut all ties, especially since he was on commission. If he was 100% salaried, it would be tougher to stop him since you have some control over a salaried employee, especially if you pay some benefits and most of the expenses. Without some salary, direct supervision and covering expenses, you have little control over the past and definitely not his future activities. A non-compete might help, but they are easy to defeat.

It is difficult to draw the line between a salesmand's "customer" and a salesman's friend. If he had lunch or drove the customer in a company car, you might have an excuse if he had and expense account and could show you paid for social activities. If he got a good commission and did not get compensated for coffee and donuts, to get to details.

Either a person is operating as a controlled employee or is not controlled for the future actions.

Outside of peddlers in the construction industry, it is usually expected that a commission salesman could/should make more money than their salaried sales manager.

Just walk away with class and do things different in control and documenting things better in the future, since you never know what you are getting when you hire someone and things may not work out like you assumed them to do..


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I'll tell you two how it REALLY is 

I have been asking new customers why they went our way. Most of them have said because we trusted you. Now, that needs to be established somehow and the companies credibility helps that.

First, there is the small talk, blah blah blah and finding the common ground. Then comes establishing credibility (showing them why to trust you more) with insurance certificates, awards, organizations and so on. Then comes the materials and the physical samples of why you believe yours to be superior and then the price.

Now after the job is complete, you'll know of you did a great job if they refer you to someone else. Now because you were referred to the new potential customer by someone they trust (their friend, family or whoever) you already have established a trustworthy relationship. If there friend was happy with you, why wouldn't they be? Now these people still need to be sold but it should be much easier.

To sum it up, it's 50/50. You need to trust that the salesman will do his best to make you happy and you need to feel safe knowing the company he represents is actually able to back up everything the salesman said.

You guys are welcome, now no more fighting!


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

Im just waiting for Rob to come in and blow it up "NO ITS THE PRODUCT, READ MY PAST NOW 11 POSTS ON THE ISSUE. HERES A DEFINITION OF THE WORDS YOU SPEAK FROM A BOOK!!" lol

I think bamm hit the nail on the head personally. Refferals are genearted in large by an awesome product. Delivering what you said you were going to do, the way you said you were going to do it.(underpromising and overdelivering never hurts either:thumbsup. Asking for refferals, and helping your customers help you get word out for you is one other thing id like to add. People talk, but they talk more in my personal expierences when i ask them for refferals


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Spaint90 said:


> Im just waiting for Rob to come in and blow it up "NO ITS THE PRODUCT, READ MY PAST NOW 11 POSTS ON THE ISSUE. HERES A DEFINITION OF THE WORDS YOU SPEAK FROM A BOOK!!" lol
> 
> I think bamm hit the nail on the head personally. Refferals are genearted in large by an awesome product. Delivering what you said you were going to do, the way you said you were going to do it.(underpromising and overdelivering never hurts either:thumbsup. Asking for refferals, and helping your customers help you get word out for you is one other thing id like to add. People talk, but they talk more in my personal expierences when i ask them for refferals


Sorry words have meaning. If that doesn't matter to you then that's on you.

Bam, Other than the small talk the rest would be considered the product. The sale person has nothing to do with the insurance, the certs of the company, the training of the workers and so on. That is part of the product. The sales person is a very small part. Pull the sales person out and you still have a company with all that you listed. They communicate the items that gain the trust, but once the start listing those items and show them past work, it is the product that is building the trust.

No where near a 50/50 split.


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Sorry words have meaning. If that doesn't matter to you then that's on you.
> 
> Bam, Other than the small talk the rest would be considered the product. The sale person has nothing to do with the insurance, the certs of the company, the training of the workers and so on. That is part of the product. The sales person is a very small part. Pull the sales person out and you still have a company with all that you listed. They communicate the items that gain the trust, but once the start listing those items and show them past work, it is the product that is building the trust.
> 
> No where near a 50/50 split.


Words have meaning? I guess i learned soemthing new today, what page of the dictionary is that on:laughing:

Believe it or not rob, i actually completely agree with you. The sales person is a very small part. When you are talking about selling crack. Then its all about the product


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Spaint90 said:


> Words have meaning? I guess i learned soemthing new today, what page of the dictionary is that on:laughing:
> 
> Believe it or not rob, i actually completely agree with you. The sales person is a very small part. When you are talking about selling crack. Then its all about the product


This coming from the guy who is labeled a painter and is in sales, not painting...:whistling

Just sayin'...

It's always about the product, no matter if its crack or a new house.


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> This coming from the guy who is labeled a painter and is in sales, not painting...:whistling
> 
> Just sayin'...
> 
> It's always about the product, no matter if its crack or a new house.


 you got me rob, yes i used to paint houses and now i work in sales. 

Seems like your digging buddy, but the ground is shallow and there is no gold


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Spaint90 said:


> Omg you got me rob, yes i used to paint houses and now i work in sales..


I did get you. Words mean things. You are not a contractor. You are a salesmen. Hence the hard stance on the importance of salesmen over the product. That's all.:thumbsup:


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I did get you. Words mean things. You are not a contractor. You are a salesmen. Hence the hard stance on the importance of salesmen over the product. That's all.:thumbsup:


I never said salesman were more important than the product..i think you want to make it that way. I come from both sides of the coin rob, i grew up doing the work. I was a contractor for 3 years, had 2 awesome employees along with me. Gave it up to chase a dream 3000 miles away. I do sales for the time being to support a different venture i am working on.

My hard stance comes from the fact that i work for a company that has 20 reps. Those reps all get the same company, same products, and same amount of random leads, same installers, same insurance, same licence, same bond, same references. Yet some sell 20k/month, some sell 250k plus/month. I also see guys come in and out every week that dont make it, see guys that think they can go a month and then cant.

So while the product for you matters, the product for me matters. The salesmanship matters more for me. I dont run off refferals most of the time. And if go in a present the products, the company and even if i show the awards, the letters from congress even to the company, all the jazz and leave a number i wont sell. There are reps that do not know chit about trades, know very little about the products and sell all the time. Even have reps that dont use pictures, or references, or past projects. They just talk. They sell off their personality.

Maybe you can learn something new rob, instead of being the know it all because you have a business, and you run off refferals. A smart business person keeps their mind open. An Entrepreneur is always learning. 

Here is my tid bit of knowlege to you, and you can take it or leave it.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Spaint90 said:


> I never said salesman were more important than the product..i think you want to make it that way.
> 
> Before I jumped in you and Mike were going at it. His impression was like mine, that sales people are the key. I believed that you used first time customers as your example. They trust in nothing but the sales person on a new company, because they have no track record.
> 
> ...


Funny thing is I am very success at what I do and don't plan on packing it in any time soon. Not agreeing with you doesn't mean that I am not open minded, it just means that I don't agree with you. I never said that I wouldn't use salesmen or expand my business. However they will concentrate on selling our reputation and product and not their personality. It's what I do and it works quite well. I am having to bring on my second crew and possibly a third soon.

My tidbit is not to be so condescending. I think it was you who started off with insulting comments to Mike. I am done with this thread and will unsubscribe. Have a great night guys!

BTW you spelled "knowledge" and "referrals" wrong...That should give you at least one more smart a$$ comment to make.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

If you have all your teeth that builds trust also.


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## lawndart (Dec 3, 2006)

This thread turned into a **** storm lol.

Just a quick update. I listened to the advice given here, and spent the last week strengthening my relationships with my customer base. So far I've received positive results, and the ex-employee has been minimized.

Thanks guys and gals :thumbsup:


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