# Level 5 fail



## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

I'm doing a job covering up some plaster walls that got painted with green sand paint on the walls. I'm using a product called glidwall that is a woven fiberglass sheet and gets two skim coats over the top to cover. These folks hired a sheet rock crew to cover the ceilings because it had a very heavy texture on it.

As I was putting the final skim on the walls the owner told me how the finishers skim the ceilings. I looked up and said, "where did it go?" He said most of iit came off when they sanded it...:laughing::whistling


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Buy a plannex and sand it off, so much easier


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

jlsconstruction said:


> Buy a plannex and sand it off, so much easier


Does it get used with dust extraction? The walls had sand paint and a few layers of wall paper so I'm fairly confident that the glid wall system works best for me. I have a total of 15 hours in this job and it's done.

I might consider it for textured ceilings though.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Just found it and it does. Most wide sanders don't do well on plaster because of the irregularities in the wall. I'm just shocked that these finishers sanded after the skim coat.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I was talking about the ceiling, sorry. But I've sanded paint off of a concrete floor with this thing, and it was fast. I've also used it so sand hardwood floors.


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## Mountain Man (Jun 3, 2013)

Jason Whipple said:


> Just found it and it does. Most wide sanders don't do well on plaster because of the irregularities in the wall. I'm just shocked that these finishers sanded after the skim coat.


Why are you so shocked? I always sand a skim coat. It doesn't have to be thick and in all actuality it shouldn't be. It's only skimmed so that the difference in porosity between Sheetrock and mud doesn't flash in high light level or glossy paints.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Jason Whipple said:


> Just found it and it does. Most wide sanders don't do well on plaster because of the irregularities in the wall. I'm just shocked that these finishers sanded after the skim coat.


House I worked on ages ago was 15k square feet, all level 5 finish. Even inside the closets was level 5. A group of guys sanded every square inch...what a dusty mess.


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

jlsconstruction said:


> Buy a plannex and sand it off, so much easier


I totally unfamiliar with the Plannex. Have you any experience with the Porter Cable sander, which doesn't have the motor in the head? I'm just wondering how the tools compare; Festool vs Porter Cable


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

Jeff G said:


> I totally unfamiliar with the Plannex. Have you any experience with the Porter Cable sander, which doesn't have the motor in the head? I'm just wondering how the tools compare; Festool vs Porter Cable


The Festool is far superior in every way. Really makes drywall enjoyable (to an extent) lol


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

country_huck said:


> The Festool is far superior in every way. Really makes drywall enjoyable (to an extent) lol


I was also wondering about how the tool feels when in use. Does it seem at all top heavy or though it wants to tip in use given the motor is in the head? I know this has not been a problem with the PC.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

country_huck said:


> The Festool is far superior in every way. Really makes drywall enjoyable (to an extent) lol


Has anybody had both?

The PC is a great sander that does a quick job and is dust free... I just can't see how the planex could be all that much better...

I need to get my hands on one and see


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## oldschoolcarp (Mar 2, 2014)

TimelessQuality said:


> Has anybody had both?
> 
> The PC is a great sander that does a quick job and is dust free... I just can't see how the planex could be all that much better...
> 
> I need to get my hands on one and see


Had the PC, now have the planex, the PC wasn't even close.
The planex is incredible. :thumbsup:

Mike


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

oldschoolcarp said:


> Had the PC, now have the planex, the PC wasn't even close.
> The planex is incredible. :thumbsup:
> 
> Mike


In what ways? Just curious....


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

oldschoolcarp said:


> Had the PC, now have the planex, the PC wasn't even close.
> The planex is incredible. :thumbsup:
> 
> Mike


Then I take it that the motor in the head of the tool is not a bad thing: it doesn't make it seem top-heavy, or have the tendency to tip?

Your input is very much appreciated, by the way. Thanks!

My apologies to the OP in getting this thread off-topic.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Jeff G said:


> I totally unfamiliar with the Plannex. Have you any experience with the Porter Cable sander, which doesn't have the motor in the head? I'm just wondering how the tools compare; Festool vs Porter Cable


I rented the porter cable last year and was so unimpressed with the thing that I wasn't even going to try the festool, but my local festool dealer let me use his display to knock down some popcorn on my own house, and I had to have one. I don't regret it at all.


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

Thanks, JLS!

In what ways would you say it was better, or the PC was worse?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

WTF Are ya'll sandin??? :blink:


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm not currently sanding anything. I was just curious about the Festool sander vs the PC sander, which I have a fair amount of experience with. 

Unlike a top-notch finisher, I typically don't have enough opportunity to hone my finishing abilities. In fact, I know of one finisher who sands very little, or not at all in some instances, because it isn't needed. I, on the other hand, am not anywhere near this good of a finisher, as I don't have the opportunity to do so. I might have a large job that by the end of it I have gotten pretty good, then it might be 6 months to a year later (maybe longer as I would typically sub out larger jobs) before I get another job that requires the same skill level to finish something, particularly to a L-5 finish.

To have the right equipment would probably help me more than anything else in finishing up something that I probably botched the tape and mud somewhat to begin with.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

Ceilings are easier with the planex because it will stick to the ceiling. I like the planex but my porter cable has thousands of hours on it and it's quite a bit cheaper. The biggest difference is the cost of the paper. $7 a piece for porter cable, $1 for the festool. Another difference is I used 100 grit with the porter cable and 180 is almost to aggressive with the the festool.:blink:


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Jeff G said:


> Thanks, JLS! In what ways would you say it was better, or the PC was worse?


The sanding it's self is about 3000 times better, dust extraction is way better, just pretty much everything is better, it's hard to explain. And it's really not to much more money. $200 more I think. The vac is expensive though


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

donerightwyo said:


> The biggest difference is the cost of the paper. $7 a piece for porter cable, $1 for the festool.


Is that backward?


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

TimelessQuality said:


> Is that backward?


No :no: Portercable has hook and loop ones now that are a little cheaper but the ones I tried weren't very good.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

TimelessQuality said:


> Is that backward?


I get 50 packs of festool for $25 when I rented the porter cable 2 pads were $16


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

jlsconstruction said:


> The sanding it's self is about 3000 times better, dust extraction is way better, just pretty much everything is better, it's hard to explain. And it's really not to much more money. $200 more I think. The vac is expensive though


Potercable is less than $400.00, the planex is $1100.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Mountain Man said:


> Why are you so shocked? I always sand a skim coat. It doesn't have to be thick and in all actuality it shouldn't be. It's only skimmed so that the difference in porosity between Sheetrock and mud doesn't flash in high light level or glossy paints.


If you have to sand your skim coat then you did it wrong. Besides, what's the point in doing it if you sand it all off again?


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Wow.. I have a hook and loop pad, and can get paper locally for less than a buck.

I should start renting it out and charge 16$ for paper:laughing:


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

jlsconstruction said:


> I get 50 packs of festool for $25 when I rented the porter cable 2 pads were $16


That is probably right I couldn't remember if there was 25 or 50 in a box. The cost of the paper will eventually pay for the extra cost.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

How does the planex paper attach?


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

TimelessQuality said:


> Wow.. I have a hook and loop pad, and can get paper locally for less than a buck.
> 
> I should start renting it out and charge 16$ for paper:laughing:


The hook and loop I tried just wasn't great. It's been a while though so maybe it has gotten better?


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

TimelessQuality said:


> How does the planex paper attach?


Hook and loop, but it stays stuck and doesn't seem to wear as bad on the edges as the hook and loop I had for the Portercable.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

The only things that sucks about the planex is the cost. Being able to make the handle shorter is awesome to. We sand the floors with it with 36 grit before the flooring guys come. Works pretty good.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

donerightwyo said:


> Potercable is less than $400.00, the planex is $1100.


 maybe, I thought the porter cable was more like $800, but I honestly have no clue, and I just paid $1000 for the festool


donerightwyo said:


> That is probably right I couldn't remember if there was 25 or 50 in a box. The cost of the paper will eventually pay for the extra cost.


 they charge $1 for singles, and they let me mix and match different grits


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Retail, but I did find them for mid $400s


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

I would love to try a planex sometime.... 

I have to drive 100 miles to find the nearest dealer, so maybe thats a good thing


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

$385.00

http://www.amazon.com/PORTER-CABLE-...0&sr=8-1&keywords=porter+cable+drywall+sander


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

Good thing I didn't see that price before or I probably wouldn't have a planex:laughing:


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## Mountain Man (Jun 3, 2013)

Jason Whipple said:


> If you have to sand your skim coat then you did it wrong. Besides, what's the point in doing it if you sand it all off again?


 Well it took you long enough to tell me I'm doing my job wrong. I never said anything about sanding it off, but generally a skim needs lightly brushed down regardless if it's hand skimmed, rolled on or sprayed on. 
I didn't realize this was a PC/Festool thread!!


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## Robinson1 (Mar 14, 2014)

Mountain Man said:


> Well it took you long enough to tell me I'm doing my job wrong. I never said anything about sanding it off, but generally a skim needs lightly brushed down regardless if it's hand skimmed, rolled on or sprayed on.
> I didn't realize this was a PC/Festool thread!!


Yep, I don't know anyone who can skim so slick that it doesn't need a quick swipe with a pole sander.


Would love a Planex but don't do anywhere near the level of volume I need to justify such a purchase. 90% of my drywall is patch work, water damage repairs, and kitchen/bath remodels. If I ever find myself in the spot where I start hanging entire houses on a regular basis I'll have me a planex. :thumbsup:


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Robinson1 said:


> Yep, I don't know anyone who can skim so slick that it doesn't need a quick swipe with a pole sander.


I do it all the time. I work with a former union plasterer who seems to be able to do it as well. If you're leaving trowel marks, then your leaving too much on the wall.


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## Mountain Man (Jun 3, 2013)

Ok mr. perfection, for one this isn't the plaster page, and two I'd love to see you level 5 a job without breaking out the sanding pole.


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> A drywall curved trowel is concave for bedding joints, a plaster curved trowel is curved in the opposite direction to prevent the corners from digging in when you polish the wall.


Every plaster guy I worked with uses a flat steel trowel. Not eve sure where you would buy a convex trowel. If you want to spend some big bucks you can buy whats called "pre-worn" trowels were the edges have been worn down but that happens on its own after you break them in. Just have to be a little more careful during the break in process.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Jason Whipple said:


> Every plaster guy I worked with uses a flat steel trowel. Not eve sure where you would buy a convex trowel. If you want to spend some big bucks you can buy whats called "pre-worn" trowels were the edges have been worn down but that happens on its own after you break them in. Just have to be a little more careful during the break in process.


That's exactly what I'm referring too, the ends taper a few mm so that the middle contacts the surface first.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> A drywall curved trowel is concave for bedding joints, a plaster curved trowel is curved in the opposite direction to prevent the corners from digging in when you polish the wall.


Here's what I was taught. You go buy an absolutely flat trowel, then you set it down flat on a pine board and whack basically the two spots on the handle where the handle is welded to the blade. It gives a slight curve along the short direction, but the length stays flat.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Jason Whipple said:


> I'm not calling anyone a hack. I'm just saying that if you leave so many marks on the wall that you have to sand the entire wall then your leaving too much on the wall. Obviously, if your in a finished room and have to work around trim and outlets, you'll need to do some touch up sanding around things but for open area's you shouldn't need more than a damp sponge to knock down a few stray ridges.
> 
> I didn't start this thread to come off as elite or anything. The point was that the guys who did the ceiling in this room put a skim coat on and then sanded it right back off again. Not a level 5 but the owner paid for it.


A final sand does not negate a Level 5 finish. As with most tasks, there are a few ways to achieve the end result.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I'll bow out after this post - everything is covered pretty well. I'll make 2 points. The first is that sanding may be significantly faster than going with the trowel technique and not sanding. That depends a lot on who is using the trowel. The second important thing is if you sand off all the mud you put on, there is a good chance you aren't going to have the fine, smooth, consistent surface you're trying to achieve.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

hdavis said:


> The second important thing is if you sand off all the mud you put on, there is a good chance you aren't going to have the fine, smooth, consistent surface you're trying to achieve.


I agree. No different than doing a level 4 finish and sanding all the way back down to the tape. It defeats the purpose. But, that's the difference between sanding the finish and sanding off the finish.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Level 5 has little to no place in residential. We complete skim coat ours and call it 4. This ends up being nicer than all the other walls in the house. Builders go to 3 on a good day. Some of the new houses around here are unreal bad.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Some of the new houses around here are unreal bad.


Are the finishers that bad up there?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

blacktop said:


> Are the finishers that bad up there?


Tract homes here have really rough finishing.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

blacktop said:


> Are the finishers that bad up there?


Most yes


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Level 5 has little to no place in residential. We complete skim coat ours and call it 4. This ends up being nicer than all the other walls in the house. Builders go to 3 on a good day. Some of the new houses around here are unreal bad.


Skim after taping is Level 5. Level 4 is two coats over tape on seams and one on interior and three over bead and screws. Level 3 is one coat over tape and I can't imagine that flying on butt joints with anyone. Maybe I'm wrong but I've never seen that in anything but the ghetto.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Ah. Then I'm more of a level 6 or 7 kind of guy..


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Ah. Then I'm more of a level 6 or 7 kind of guy..


If it still isn't flat after a level 5 I don't think you keep counting.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I'm still a huge fan of 8 foot base. Of course that's for 8 foot ceilings. 9 foot base when applicable.


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## D.E.P.S. (Aug 3, 2013)

I have been around a few crews that applied level 5 coats pretty thick and they always had to sand afterwards because of tool & lap marks. But, a good finisher really shouldn't need to sand afterwards .........other than doing a walk through looking for slight marks he missed when wiping the mud off. All you are tring to do is leave a slight glaze to even out the porosity.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

My 2 cents.............The best finishers I ever knew had to sand just a little. New construction, large custom homes. Level 4

Level 5 with no sanding..............Anything is possible.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Big Shoe said:


> My 2 cents.............The best finishers I ever knew had to sand just a little. New construction, large custom homes. Level 4
> 
> Level 5 with no sanding..............Anything is possible.


By no sanding he said he goes over the draw lines with a wet sponge. I'm sure it looks good but it makes me think of my grandfather's drywall work all done with a wet sponge (looked like crap).


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Jason Whipple said:


> As I was putting the final skim on the walls the owner told me how the finishers skim the ceilings. I looked up and said, "where did it go?" He said most of iit came off when they sanded it...:laughing::whistling


How did the ceilings look after paint?


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## Jason Whipple (Dec 22, 2007)

blacktop said:


> How did the ceilings look after paint?


It hasn't been painted yet but I'll take a look when I get back up there. The finishing itself looked great. Might be just fine with a good primer.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Jason Whipple said:


> It hasn't been painted yet but I'll take a look when I get back up there. The finishing itself looked great. Might be just fine with a good primer.


As long as they didn't tear up a 'nap' on the paper when they sanded it should look mint.


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