# 2 wire outlet



## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Aw Hell! Never mind!!!!!


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## Tonyeo (Sep 25, 2007)

Did not say I was going to do it (In my original post I said that I always tell them to call an Electrician) I know the code and understand what I can and can not do, I was just interested.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

InPhase277 said:


> It is true that it is legal, and safe, because the GFCI won't allow current flow anywhere but the circuit conductors.
> 
> However, the bonded equipment ground in a 3-wire circuit is often used as a reference for electronic equipment, like computers. Without a real ground, bonded to the neutral at the service, you may find you get the "Blue Screen of Death" from a computer connected to a "No Equipment Ground" GFCI outlet. Especially in the winter when the air is dry, and the cat is rubbing against the computer case...
> 
> ...



That is an informative post.

The equipment grounding conductor plays no role in the electrical circuit other than to carry fault current in the event of a ground fault. It exists for safety reasons to facilitate a circuit breaker.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

woodchuck2 said:


> X2, what i have always done for HUDD work since this is always BX is check that the wire is tight in the box and bond the new rec to the box with a piece of ground wire.


Does HUD accept BX as a grounding conductor?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

jrclen said:


> Does HUD accept BX as a grounding conductor?


I hope not. The pre 1960-ish BX armor is not an approved ground path, and can be hazardous under fault conditions.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

220/221 said:


> The best solution is GFCI breakers at the panel. They will protect the entire circuit.


Agreed, but sometimes if the circuit is long enough, you will get lots of false tripping that way due to inductive capacitance buildup on the conductors. I usually just go find the first receptacle in the circuit and skip the home run for reason stated above.


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## ceh64 (Mar 14, 2008)

Installing a GFCI breaker might work and is code complant but you may have false tripping. Going to the panel every time you turn off your vacum our other motor type appliance will not be fun. The best thing to do is to rewire the recepticle. Also you may find that in older homes you might have mixed circuits it not right but old timers did it all the time. A GFCI will not work if someone boot leged a nutral.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

ceh64 said:


> A GFCI will not work if someone boot leged a nutral.


True, but that's a problem that needs corrected as well.


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## darren (Nov 24, 2005)

Hey MD didn't you show us in a post a while back a picture of a 2 prong outlet that Pass and Seymour still makes that would work great in the sistution if you needed no ground.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

jrclen said:


> Does HUD accept BX as a grounding conductor?












Not saying it is a good thing, but apparently legal!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

darren said:


> Hey MD didn't you show us in a post a while back a picture of a 2 prong outlet that Pass and Seymour still makes that would work great in the sistution if you needed no ground.


Maybe. I've posted an awful lot of pictures lots of places over the years. If you're asking me if they still make 2-prong receptacles, that's absolutely true. They're normal truck stock for me. We use the one's made by Leviton, but for no special reason. I know they're stock at the local Lowe's and Home Depot also. Fitting ungrounded receptacle locations with 2-prong receptacles will work for most bedrooms and living rooms, since most of what you use in those spaces is only 2-prong anyhow. There is a method for every budget.


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

mdshunk said:


> There is a method for every budget.


Yep, good answer to the original question. The method of installing a gfi device in the first receptacle outlet in the series,(or the first in a bunch of series as the case may end up sometimes) made me a good wad of cash in the first week of this month. Lady had a house wired in two wire romex, stapled to wood studs, covered with drywall, lots of sliding glass doors. Those are some of the harder ones to fish / rewire without surface wiring methods getting used in a lot of cases. She couldn't afford the complete rewire, so the band aid gfi approach solved her problem not having 3 prong receptacle outlets in the bedrooms. (where mostly 2 prong devices get used ).:thumbsup:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

MALCO.New.York said:


> Not saying it is a good thing, but apparently legal!


Those "cheater plugs" are not legal, as they are no longer UL listed.

It was never "legal" to use the armor of BX (the kind without the internal aluminium bond strip) as the ground.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Sounds fair. I, obviously, do not know.


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## Mackie (Mar 15, 2008)

Very interesting... I was just pondering this situation earlier today.

If all the house's wiring is behind drywall and stapled then do you pretty much have to use metal raceways or *yikes* tear apart the walls?

In the picture posted earlier-- http*://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc97/MalcoNewYork/2prong3pronga.jpg - Figures 104 & 106 -- shouldn't the rec be oriented so that the ground is on top? Does anyone know offhand what article in the NEC is for that?

--thanx


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

The adapter is designed to be set with the cover plate screw, hence the little tag on it, which is circuited through the body of the receptacle, ears and all, and finishes through the supposed metal box which is, if one is lucky and has checked, Grounded or as I said in the very beginning, to Earth. (no one seemed to like the term).

All-in-all, I have to agree that a GFCI labeled properly, is the appropriate answer.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

Mackie said:


> In the picture posted earlier- - Figures 104 & 106 -- shouldn't the rec be oriented so that the ground is on top? Does anyone know offhand what article in the NEC is for that?
> 
> --thanx


Not addressed by the NEC. That's a design issue.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

Mackie said:


> Very interesting... I was just pondering this situation earlier today.
> 
> If all the house's wiring is behind drywall and stapled then do you pretty much have to use metal raceways or *yikes* tear apart the walls?


Just fishing new wires is an alternative. No need for raceways, nor for tearing apart the walls. Some times access holes will need to be cut in and then patched but I try to keep it minimal.


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

MALCO.New.York said:


> The adapter is designed to be set with the cover plate screw, hence the little tag on it, which is circuited through the body of the receptacle, ears and all, and finishes through the supposed metal box which is, if one is lucky and has checked, Grounded or as I said in the very beginning, to Earth. (no one seemed to like the term).
> 
> All-in-all, I have to agree that a GFCI labeled properly, is the appropriate answer.


There is no guaranty that the cover plate screw is grounded. I would be interested to know how you suggest checking it as you mentioned above. The old BX without the internal aluminum strip is not an approved grounding conductor, and can actually become a hazard if used for grounding. As stated by MD. But that BX sheath will show DC continuity on your ohm meter. The problem is it's high impedance to AC current.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

As I explained....I stand corrected and DO NOT condone the usage of this device. I did, however, explain the INTENDED design of said device.

My only argument is that at one time box grounding WAS an accepted method.


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## Tonyeo (Sep 25, 2007)

I am the op and I was interested in how you guys handle this problem, I have been in construction for many years in England and here in the States. As I have stated I tell the customer to get an Electrician to fix the problem, but I like to learn things, not to do the job myself (I know the code) but to be informed, and that is what I thought these forums were for. Again I do not do anything that I am not allowed to do (not worth being sued over if I cause a problem), just as I am sure you guys don't do anything you are not allowed to do. Thanks to everyone for an interesting thread, it really is enlightening.


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

I can tell you first hand that GFCI's do work.

I was using a demo hammer, wearing shorts, sitting on concrete when the nicked cord contacted my thigh. I felt a slight sting, the hammer stopped working and I went to reset the gfci outlet.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

WHAT??? SHORTS????  :laughing:


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## iddy (Mar 22, 2008)

*speedy petey*

HEy I like that John Lennon Link.
Lots of good stuff there.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

mickeyco said:


> http://www.cpsc.gov/library/shock95.pdf
> http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/shock98.pdf
> These are a little old:


Here are some from '03 - http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia07/os/2003electrocutions.pdf

BTW, thanks, Mickeyco. :thumbsup:


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Here are some from '03 - http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia07/os/2003electrocutions.pdf
> 
> BTW, thanks, Mickeyco. :thumbsup:


Thanks guys.


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