# Worker's Comp Insurance, gut check



## Dullers (Feb 26, 2015)

Hey all,

Carpenter turned GC here. With the amount of help/subs I've been using I decided Worker's Comp wasn't an option anymore. I went down today and got a policy from a good friend of mine in the insurance biz. 

Can I get a gut check on my pricing? My LLC is young (2.5 years) and I don't have any W.C. insurance history yet, so I'm in "the pool" for now. 
My down payment was several thousand 

Anywho, here's my rates:

Code	Trade Rate per $100 paid annually
-----------------------------------------------------
5474	Painter $9.82
5551	Roofer $24.60
5645	Carpenter $14.78
5022	Mason/Chimney	$12.29
5183	Plumber $6.87
5190	Electrician $4.46
5537	HVAC $8.08

Watcha think?
:drink::drink:



Edit: Typo. Had "per $1000 annually", is actually per $100


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

Yep.........welcome to being legit. Keep good records of hours/type of work performed, even if it's different tasks on the same day....just break it down accordingly. I use whole hours to keep the math simpler. 

Are those all the categories you have? I have different categories for wallboard, cabinetry, tile, floor coverings etc. also. I asked about a "labor" category but they said they didn't have one. So clean up, humping material, dump runs etc. I just have to pick whatever category it mostly had to do with.


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## Dullers (Feb 26, 2015)

dsconstructs said:


> Yep.........welcome to being legit. Keep good records of hours/type of work performed, even if it's different tasks on the same day....just break it down accordingly. I use whole hours to keep the math simpler.
> 
> Are those all the categories you have? I have different categories for wallboard, cabinetry, tile, floor coverings etc. also. I asked about a "labor" category but they said they didn't have one. So clean up, humping material, dump runs etc. I just have to pick whatever category it mostly had to do with.


Thanks for the response! I'm actually excited about it. I had a big sigh of relief today when he told me it'd be active tomorrow morning. 
Good tip. I currently break down each guy by day & task in my invoicing tool (Excel). For example:

_2/23/2016 Hours Bernie- Drywall corner beads, laundry wet-wall drywall, bath drywall, sweep & vacuum throughout. Mud & Tape kitchen, 1st coat. 
_

Those are all the categories I was given by my insurance agent. I haven't seen a master list or anything. I just told him the company names/sub-names and what they did. This is what he came back with.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Dam, that's cheap.....

come to California if you really want to puke your guts out....


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## Dullers (Feb 26, 2015)

griz said:


> Dam, that's cheap.....
> 
> come to California if you really want to puke your guts out....


lol thanks


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

Ya...I'd check into the other classifications, no big deal to add them. 
Wallboard, as your example, is it's own classification. Rates closer to painting rates than carpentry rates.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

griz said:


> Dam, that's cheap.....
> 
> come to California if you really want to puke your guts out....


Ha, yep. A couple of his numbers were real close to mine. The rest were pretty much half mine.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Here's mine:

framing 17.47
finish carpentry 5.82
ceramic tile 7.85
painting 7.47


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

One thing to consider is having your agent review your subs policies as you get them. It's a service one agency I work with offers and it seems pretty helpful. He can flag a sub that's not properly insured and prevent a major issue from cropping up. Agents are far more useful than just gathering some quotes every couple years. Yeah, they want to make money, but they REALLY don't want any claims to come through so they have a vested interest in making sure YOU don't have any unnecessary claims.


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

All those categories are good to know and keep track of if possible.

If not many work items can fall under Carpentry NOC (No other class) if you care to simplify. Check with your agent. 

Framing (new structure or decks), siding, roofing are higher than Carpentry NOC and should be tracked as such.

You'll have to weigh the admin / cost value.

There's a lot of good information on your state's WC website.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

See if you can qualify for a policy as part of a group.

when I signed up with our payroll company--- the first thing the gal said was " your WC rates are insane--- we gotta get you into a group"

Next week she had signed me up as a dues paying member of our counties Farm Bureau and my rates fell through the floor. I live in a city of 200,000 and most commonly work in a city 40 minutes north of me with a county population of 1.2 million. I am nothing like a farmer--- but I get the farm bureau discount.--- check it out.

Stephen


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

Those rates look pretty good to me. 

Got to give you credit for doing the right thing.


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## AaronM (Nov 14, 2015)

Consider yourself lucky. Around here, framing carpenters for a new company will range from $33 to $75 per hundred depending on whether you get a carrier that will take you or not... and forget getting payroll separation in your first year of having WC.


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## MattK (Apr 2, 2009)

Roof rate looks cheap if it's classified as commercial or all inclusive. There are a few tiers depending on whether you do roofs ONLY to tie in additions vs. 6-10 roofs a year vs. 200+ roofs a year like the larger companies.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

It's a racket ...That's the crookedest bunch of mother****ers that ever walked the face of the Earth !! They're like a Woman ...You can't live with them but you can't live without them ,,And you never know what they're gonna do!! 


I know dead beats that are able bodied men ....That worked the system and living a good life off what I put In It as a hard worker.


I don't mind paying my taxes ! But W/C Is a joke!! 

Lets say you have a personal health plan and W/C ...And you get hurt on the job . Who's gonna pay? You better have a good lawyer !!! 

They are gonna **** you every which way they can till your ****ed!!

Unless !!!!!your an dead beat employee ..That has a twisted ankle and neck injury...from tripping over a ladder .. That's an easy $25k ... But then the Contractor will be at loss with his provider ,,And will have to move on to another at a higher rate . It's a racket !! No different from the mob !!


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

My rates went way up this year. I'm quite disappointed.

6.16 across the board.

Honestly I don't know how you guys do it. Rates that high would make me puke, and we haven't even seen California rates from Griz.


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## Dullers (Feb 26, 2015)

Thanks for all the responses folks, this was super helpful! Great tips, too.




We Fix Houses said:


> All those categories are good to know and keep track of if possible.
> 
> If not many work items can fall under Carpentry NOC (No other class) if you care to simplify. Check with your agent.
> 
> ...


This is particularly intriguing. I'll definitely look into that. I'm doing ~$75,000/year right now in subs, so the cost/benefit may not be there yet (given all the "free time" I don't have, ha!). It's definitely good to know there's some extra dollars to be squeezed out of further itemizing my guys' time. :drink:


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

Our roofing rate in Illinois was 48% but now is down to 44%


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Your time cards/ pay roll records should in a "perfect" world give your payroll costs and production cost for tasks and per unit when mated with inventory deliveries and returns.....

In my state, the WC and unemployement Comp use the almost the exact same schemes, but different %s. They keep 5 year histories, and have 8 classes of rates in every job title, so you can go up or down somewhat depending on 'experience'/Claims. Claims are based on historical quarters, back 5 ahead 3,

Keep your help working year a round and Unemployment rates will drop eventually somewhat... workman's comp some what so....

I worked for a mason Sub that paid Wednesday to Tuesday to screw everyone out of a weeks unemployment every layoff, and thus save him a few thousand dollars on higher rates..... Even two days of Union pay made one ineligible for an unemployment check.


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## trussme (Jan 18, 2013)

You do not pay workmans comp on any subcontractor


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