# Now 3 estimates in a row I got passed on



## faux1975 (Feb 22, 2011)

Okay, I have posted here before. Going on 11 years of doing custom residential painting (faux and straight painting) in the Philly burbs area (higher end market). For the first time, I have lost 3 potential leads in a row because of price. I have always felt since I am a small business and owner/operator that the poor economy really shouldn't have any impact on me but my feelings are starting to change. I never sub guys out and am always on the job doing the work. I've always considered my rates to be in the middle while providing the highest detail and reliability one would expect from a painter. 

The most recent lead I got was from a G.C. that is doing kitchen work for a homeowner(half million dollar home) that needs their 2-story foyer and upper hall painted. I've done my fair share of 2-story foyers in the past and this one was your typical run of the mill. Has 11 six panel doors and a french door leading out to the kitchen. Lot's of woodwork, lot's of spindles, and a fair amount of wall space. For these types, I tend to estimate anywhere between 45-48 man hours for an A+ painter. Since I am doing the work I assumed those hours because of the following: 1-coat on ceiling, 2-coats on walls, and 2-coats on all doors and woodwork with minimal prep (few nail pops). Walls and ceiling getting a flat finish using all Ben Moore Regal. 

Now I knew going into this estimate that the homeowner had gotten other estimates so I was mindful about not trying to compete with whatever the lowest number was. The homeowner had told me he had gotten a few other estimates with one being triple the amount of the other. In any event , my estimate came in at $2,070.00. Now I'm guessing the other high estimate was somewhere in the upper three's or low four's and the low amount was $1,300 - $1,600 range. The funny thing is that the G.C. higlhy recommended me to this homeowner because of the work I do yet in the end, I was still passed up. The G.C. was taking no extra money off the top for the referral because he knew his client was already getting other estimates. It's pretty obvious to me that the H.O. is going with the low number. If that's the case, how is a legit painter making any money doing this kind of work for $1,300 - $1,600.00 ?? Even $1,700.00 is a bit on the low side considering $300.00 of it is paint and material. That would leave $1,400.00 for almost 6 days of hard work for one guy painting a space most people can't do anyway. Out of that $1,400, take off another couple hundred for overhead and that would come out to be about 26-28 dollars an hour for a painter running a business. I can't compete with that if that is becoming the norm. 

I'd love some feedback on this. I'm starting to get a bit frustrated with this "craigslist" mentality out in the marketplace. Are my rates fair? I always thought they were for the last 11 years.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Welcome to reality.



faux1975 said:


> I've always considered my rates to be in the middle


Anybodies whos prices are in the middle is always going to be operating in a false economy. Things work very differently when your business model is such.

Your prices have now been artificially raised (by your competitors lowering theirs) to now be on the higher end.

What you're experiencing is what you will always experience when you become the high priced company in the market instead of the low one or the middle one. Now you have to learn to sell your services diffrently without the crutch of pricing effecting the customers decisions as it has in the past whether you knew it or not or even believe it or not.


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## faux1975 (Feb 22, 2011)

Mike, I have adjusted my rates periodically so I have been flexible. This latest job proves my point that once again, being in the middle while offering the highest quality of work still fails. The H.O. knew what kind of work I provided. I even showed him my portfolio of faux work as a selling point. So between my meeting, my portfolio, and the G.C. recommending me, my middle of the road estimate still wasn't enough. Sorry Mike, but I can't do much more than that. My communication skills are also above the average of a typical painter so presentation wasn't an issue either.


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

Not being unhelpful or sympathizing with the lowest bid, but, how do you know that price was the only concern?

Firstly, I am no painter, but, 48 hours for the area you described seems rather a lot of time, even with high detail work.

I have noticed in my area that time on job is getting to be the biggest consideration. HO's are generally going with the midrange pricing as usual, but are looking at who can get in and out in the shortest time.

1. HO's want it done NOW, not when you can fit it into your schedule.
2. HO's want it done NOW, not in the 5 to 6 days it will take one man to get it done.

I had a customer this year that wanted 3 baths, 1 kitchen remodeled and a paver patio done in 30 days. Needless to say, because I don't have a crew of 10, I couldn't meet that deadline. Job went to someone who said they could.


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## faux1975 (Feb 22, 2011)

Wizard, the minute you said you were no painter, I could no longer take what you said seriously. I priced the job out based on 44 hours not 48 BUT I used 48 as the high number because of variables but the 48 hrs didn't dictate my estimate. 44 hrs did. All of the work involved is brush and roll work. Not spraying the doors being one example. This is a residential re-paint. Not commercial. The doors, woodwork, and spindles alone for 1 guy is around 18-20 man hours. White semi going over a med tone brown color. Not white on white. The issue with the H.O. was not the time. Even if I had another painter with me, my estimate would have still been almost the same.


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

faux1975 said:


> Okay, I have posted here before. Going on 11 years of doing custom residential painting (faux and straight painting) in the Philly burbs area (higher end market). For the first time, I have lost 3 potential leads in a row because of price. I have always felt since I am a small business and owner/operator that the poor economy really shouldn't have any impact on me but my feelings are starting to change. I never sub guys out and am always on the job doing the work. I've always considered my rates to be in the middle while providing the highest detail and reliability one would expect from a painter.
> 
> The most recent lead I got was from a G.C. that is doing kitchen work for a homeowner(half million dollar home) that needs their 2-story foyer and upper hall painted. I've done my fair share of 2-story foyers in the past and this one was your typical run of the mill. Has 11 six panel doors and a french door leading out to the kitchen. Lot's of woodwork, lot's of spindles, and a fair amount of wall space. For these types, I tend to estimate anywhere between 45-48 man hours for an A+ painter. Since I am doing the work I assumed those hours because of the following: 1-coat on ceiling, 2-coats on walls, and 2-coats on all doors and woodwork with minimal prep (few nail pops). Walls and ceiling getting a flat finish using all Ben Moore Regal.
> 
> ...



You are wondering how some one can survive on $1400 for a weeks work? It's a different world out there today. Look outside your circle. We are in the deepest depression since 1928 and it ain't getting any better. You have guys out there that can make that weeks work for $1400 go quite far in feeding their families or paying yet one more months roof over their head. Prices on all non essential services have fallen. We have to drop our prices or starve. I hate it, you hate it but it's what it's all about today.

I have said in the past how my trade has been hurt badly due to the cheap Chinese junk formaldehyde and sulfur infested cabinets that has invaded our market. Today the consumer does not care about quality, where the product is made, what kind of warranty, the reputation of the company...ect. They only care about one thing and one thing only and that one thing determines if they will buy or not. PRICE PRICE PRICE

Proof of that is seeing the Walmart parking lots always full of Americans buying cheap Chinese junk while our economy deteriorates as quickly as we are losing jobs.


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## faux1975 (Feb 22, 2011)

Jimmy, you make some good points about the need for painting in general. I agree but we are also talking about certain types of spaces that most people can't do period or can't do efficiently or well enough. If cost is always an issue, then maybe those homeowners shouldn't make their painting needs a priority. It's called living beyond your means. Again, if your telling me that the residential painting marketplace is now dictating 25-30 an hour labor rates in my market (Philly burbs) , then I can accept that. But I provide a service most people can't do as well as me in the time that it takes me. It also cost me more to live today than 5 years ago along with running a business which has cost me more. All I want to know at this point is if I'm being unreasonable?


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## faux1975 (Feb 22, 2011)

Also Jimmy, your in Houston. The marketplace there is not what it is here. $30.00 an hour for the owner/operator of a small painting business in Houston may be the norm but up here in the Northeast, cost of living is higher.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Is $2070 just for labor, or labor and materials?


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## faux1975 (Feb 22, 2011)

Cooke, $2,070.00 is for everything. Labor and materials. Again, this is a 2-story foyer with an upper hall that leads to all bedrooms. Lot's of doors and woodwork. Lot's of spindles with 2-coats on all. 4 gallons for wall surfaces (2-coats) and 2 gallons for ceilings. My billing rate is structured around 44 man hours. 19-21 hours for all doors, woodwork, and spindles. Another 5-6 hours for prep and 1-coat on ceilings. About 15hours for 2-coats on all wall surfaces. Another 2 hours for set-up and clean up. This billing is for 1 painter (Me) doing the project.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

In my opinion, and I do a lot of estimating, even to the point where I can estimate time and materials for my painters, without them seeing the job - it seems like you are heavy on the labor by about a day.


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## faux1975 (Feb 22, 2011)

Cooke, so your saying you would be around 36-37 man hours for a high end painter doing this type of project?


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## Hmrepairs (Sep 11, 2010)

From what you describe, your time doesn't seem out of line to me. Things are sure different in one area of the country compared to the other. It's not a bad economy everywhere, buy you have probably been hit harder than I have where I live. Why not just ask the homeowner why they decided not to use your service? What can it hurt? Don't be a dick about it, just ask for their help in understanding what swayed their decision. Then weed out their answers until you get the truth. Besides, they may need a guy in the near future to fix the other guys screw-ups Make a friend.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

faux1975 said:


> Cooke, so your saying you would be around 36-37 man hours for a high end painter doing this type of project?


I can't see the job, but I would say 4 days in my opinion.

I work in the same area you do, and I know what the market is like. Chances are you are not competing with a legit contractor. It's a part of life. Finley has the best advice, start figuring out how to sell without focusing on price.


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

faux1975 said:


> Also Jimmy, your in Houston. The marketplace there is not what it is here. $30.00 an hour for the owner/operator of a small painting business in Houston may be the norm but up here in the Northeast, cost of living is higher.


Faux:
I'm well aware of the cost of living there, I'm from there. My point really was a sarcastic way of saying there is always some one who don't have overhead like you, who don't pay taxes like you, who don't have expenses like you, who just goes through life doing side jobs. And the quality of those side jobs be damned. 

I do know what you are saying. Maybe you have the proper scafolding to do those high ceilings in foyers. The illegal idiot doing a side job will just make one out of junk wood. It gets the job done but just don't look as pretty. The poor always find a way to improvise. 

I wish ya luck man. I really do. No one said our business is easy. We do it because we love it.


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## faux1975 (Feb 22, 2011)

Cooke, Most of my jobs are from referrals. This job was a referral from a G.C. to the homeowner. I don't normally have to focus on price because most people desire what I provide. 

HM, the H.O and I spoke this morning and I was very up front with him last night about what I'd be willing to do. Match a lower estimate within $200.00. So when he contacted me this morning to tell me he was going with someone else, I did ask him if I was closer to the lower estimate or the higher one. He said close to the lower but not close enough to match it. I'm not used to bidding wars and I told him when we met that I would be willing to work with him but I will not get into a pricing war with other contractors. The homeowner really did like the kind of work I do and the way I treated him but when it came down to it, he had to stick within his budget even if that budget was below the industry standard.


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## faux1975 (Feb 22, 2011)

Jimmy, thanks man! I really appreciate your opinion. You made some very good points.


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## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm seeing the same as Cooke. You seem a few hundred high but I may be missing something. Also 35hr is about par around me in Philly.


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## faux1975 (Feb 22, 2011)

Most high end painting subs around here get paid anywhere between $25.00 to $35.00 per hour. If I'm the owner/operator of my business, I can't apply those same rates to me when I estimate my jobs. Yet there are plumbers out there that will charge $600.00 for 2 hours to snake a pipe out. Am I missing something?


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

faux1975 said:


> Most high end painting subs around here get paid anywhere between $25.00 to $35.00 per hour. If I'm the owner/operator of my business, I can't apply those same rates to me when I estimate my jobs. Yet there are plumbers out there that will charge $600.00 for 2 hours to snake a pipe out. Am I missing something?


Become a plumber then.


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## swilbanks75 (Mar 20, 2011)

*I feel your pain*

For us small business owners, it is a sad reality that the economy actually does affect us. The reason is that all the "husband and wife" teams can do it alot cheaper than we can. Also, although i respect our "friends from south of the border" there is just no way i can compete for work at their prices. In the past, people were leary of hiring them, but with the economy in shambles, more and more people are taking the risk.
Hope you hold on through the rough times. just be consistant and solid, things will get better for us. I took a night job delivering pizza, I'm not sure if you would consider something like this, but it allows me to keep my bids consistant because I have another source of income.
God bless.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Gough said:


> Mike Finley said:
> 
> 
> > Why is it that all the arguements presented today about the owner being happy, the top of the market, full schedule etc... apply today when they are charging $XX.XX but they didn't apply 2 years, 3 years or 4 years or whatever the time frame was when they were charging $YY.YY?
> ...


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## room2roof (Feb 1, 2011)

faux1975 said:


> I'd love some feedback on this. I'm starting to get a bit frustrated with this "craigslist" mentality out in the marketplace. Are my rates fair? I always thought they were for the last 11 years.


I Agree with you here, Potential customers see Hobos and Hack Handymen taking on jobs for nothing and every guy who is out of work usually becomes a painter first thinking anyone can "paint". It takes a certain skill set to be a Master at what you do and continuing education in the field, bettering your business with new products & technology as well as local and state regulations that require certification such as working with historic homes and lead paint. 90% of Painting is the prep work and Trust me none of these Hobos working for peanuts know what theyre doing.

We are painters here in the Charlotte NC area and come across a plethora of low balling hacks out to make money for beer or drugs that evening..lol.....What my company Room 2 Roof did was cut our overhead dramatically to become more competitive in the marketplace because we will never sacrifice our workers pay, quality of products or bottom line. 

What really kills me is though is how this kind of "craigslist mentality" or "walmart mentality" as I call it, is becoming the downfall of America. I do see many customers learning their lesson and realizing that cheap cheap cheap usually costs more in the long run and substandard work at blowout prices means crap products are used to save money which result in the paint work having to be done again that much sooner. We can turn the same profit as big franchises like Certapro or better because we have some flexibility.


I'd love to see Dentists and Surgeons putting ads on Craigslist and potential customers making them go into a bidding war...lol..."Hey I can pull that kidney out cheaper than any guy in town woo hoo"....

Charlotte NC Painting Contractor | Charlotte NC Roofing Contractor | Charlotte NC Remodeling Contractor


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

In Gough's situation, could it not be possible that he has prequalifying down to an art? Could it be that simple?

If it is not broken, why fix it? Imo, his method is not broken.

As far as going by the book of raising prices when thi shappens or that happens, many books have contradictions and exceptions. His situation seems to be an exception.

My auto ins recently had some increases. My agent told me the company had a good year, it was not because of excessive claims. It was to put more money in the stockholders pocket. 

I commend Gough for knowing when enough is enough and not demanding more and more and.....

This is not his first rodeo. What he is doing seems to be working for him.

The difference in the number of proposals and the number of leads, I think, breaks down to his sales ability and *prequaliying*. He is not wasting time with the other 60% or whatever.


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## adoptapainter (Jun 27, 2016)

*Home Improvement Leads*

I have had much success in using online Home Improvement Lead companies. I was able to obtain jobs through this type of service and found it to be a beneficial route.


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## GoodStuff (Nov 10, 2014)

Overanalyzed a bit...

My prices are based on LMOP - that's it. I do have a few "Standard" numbers that I poke in here and there, but overall the LMOP method works. I bid by the job, so sometimes I'm a hero, and sometimes I'm not. If the boys are working, and the bills are paid, I do not lose any sleep on what jobs paid what because my pricing is fair all around.

As to getting jobs. Just keep bidding! I follow the SWSWSWN philosophy (Some will, some won't, so what!, NEXT). It's not worth the added gray hair to try to figure out why. My business has had a few bad weeks here and there, but never a bad month because I am always working on the next proposal to send out. Smile a lot, dress for success, make the customer #1, don't oversell or BS too much. People look for successful businesses because they have heard all the horrible stories of the job that went bad. Be the success story and the price won't matter. Also, don't focus on the billing. I tell my customers to pay me when the job is complete. I've not had any more bad experiences doing this than any other company - and most importantly, the customer knows I'm focused on their job, not their money.

Keep prospecting - everything else will work out. Do more than what is expected and the customer will always be happy. Pay your guys a fair wage and make sure everybody shares in the good times. There is not a better profession than ours... we are in control of our own destiny... I have read all the comments on here, and there is some terrific stuff - but it amounts to keeping a steady course forward and not losing focus. More Leads = More Jobs... focus on that.


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