# which sub is "more knowledgable"lol



## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

I have a builders license, I`m also hands on as a carpenter

this comes up all the time , always in a tongue in cheek argument , and never hostile.

I was working at my plumbers house this weekend , installing doors and windows for him.

we always argue, in fun '

he said " the plumber is the most knowledgable guy on the job " 
I argued and said the carpenter has to know more .
he was serious , he felt he was the more knowledgable sub on the site

and it was on !!

I have the same argument with the electrician
they think they are the most important sub on the site, and that they know more.

I always feel the carpenter has to know a bit more
that he has to know carpentry , electric, plumbing , and a/c . we have to have way more tools
we have to , in a pinch, sweat a pipe , hook up temp lights.do drywall , plastering , windows ,grid ceilings, doors , trim , framing. etc.

so who says what on this subject


----------



## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

The sheetrockers!


----------



## Burns-Built (May 8, 2009)

I agree spike, carpenters are most knowledgable, because one day we can frame a house then move to the roof, siding, soffit and fascia, hang doors and install windows, maybe insulate, hang rock, maybe finish, and on and on.....

And here are plumber/electrician and hvac guys rates are higher than carpenters, and we have to have a lot more tools IMO. 

Not to knock the electricians and plumbers.


----------



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

You just described a general contractor, in my opinion. In my books a carpenter works with wood, and that's pretty much it.

I think your average plumber or electrician knows more than your average general contractor(assuming we're only counting correct knowledge:whistling). But a really good GC will know more than just about anyone you will see on a site.


----------



## r4r&r (Feb 22, 2012)

This reminds me of a joke.. 

******* rules the human body --------------------------------------------

All the organs of the body were having a meeting, trying to decide who was the one in charge.

"I should be in charge," said the brain, "Because I run all the body's systems, so without me nothing would happen."

"I should be in charge," said the blood , "because I circulate oxygen all over so without me you'd all waste away."

"I should be in charge," said the stomach , "because I process food and give all of you energy."

"I should be in charge," said the legs , "because I carry the body wherever it needs to go."

"I should be in charge," said the eyes, "Because I allow the body to see where it goes."

"I should be in charge," said the rectum , "Because I'm responsible for waste removal."

All the other body parts laughed at the rectum and insulted him, so in a huff, he shut down tight.

Within a few days, the brain had a terrible headache, the stomach was bloated, the legs got wobbly, the eyes got watery, and the blood was toxic. They all decided that the rectum should be the boss.

The Moral of the story?

The ass hole is usually in charge!


----------



## Burns-Built (May 8, 2009)

I'm a general contractor but consider myself a carpenter. It doesn't matter what I do I try to perfect it all. No sense in doing it if you can't do it right.


----------



## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

The question is which sub so a GC is out. My question would be on what type of a project?


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

EthanB said:


> You just described a general contractor, in my opinion. In my books a carpenter works with wood, and that's pretty much it.
> 
> I think your average plumber or electrician knows more than your average general contractor(assuming we're only counting correct knowledge:whistling). But a really good GC will know more than just about anyone you will see on a site.


Most GCs I know cant do most of the things he mentioned. 

IMO a carpenter should be able to most of those things. I know a couple who cant roof for chit, and many like myself cannot finish drywall properly. I pretty much refuse to finish drywall or paint  and Ive always sucked at finishing concrete.


----------



## Burns-Built (May 8, 2009)

One of the jobs I'm on now the HO is playing general which makes me a sub :blink:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I also know a lot of specialists (framers, trim carpenters, cabinet guys) that call themselves as such. A carpenter is a general term and occupation, and most guys who are true carpenters can do almost anything on a house from foundation to ridge, excluding EMPs (some can do that too)


----------



## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

Carpenter:thumbsup:

Not only does a true carpenter cut and bang wood together. He will also know how to roof, plumb a toilet or sink, install a plug or switch, flooring and need I go on.

Back in the day a CARPENTER could & would do it all:clap::clap:


----------



## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

A good carpenter knows the most on most jobs .


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

SAW.co said:


> Carpenter:thumbsup:
> 
> Not only does a true carpenter cut and bang wood together. He will also know how to roof, plumb a toilet or sink, install a plug or switch, flooring and need I go on.
> 
> Back in the day a CARPENTER could & would do it all:clap::clap:


Most carpenters here have little to no hands on electrical or plumbing experience, due to its illegal unless you are working for a liscenced plumber or sparkie.

Dont get me wrong, most have done some, but not like in cali. You are supposed to be a liscenced apprentice, then 4 years (4 years full time) as a apprentice gets a chance at a test. You pass, your a journeyman. 2-4 years (not sure, most it seems to take atleast 4, a buddy got his at 24 though) you test for your masters. Cant pull a permit for EMPs in Texas without a Masters in your field.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I hate to say it, but I know a lot of sparkys are pretty knowledgeable about a lot of trades. Im still debating in my mind who is usually most knowledgeable in general. 

I want to say carpenters, but most carpenters under 40 that I know dont know chit. Some dont even know proper nail patterns or spans. It is due to the laziness of my generation in general.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

SAW.co said:


> Carpenter:thumbsup:
> 
> Not only does a true carpenter cut and bang wood together. He will also know how to roof, plumb a toilet or sink, install a plug or switch, flooring and need I go on.
> 
> Back in the day a CARPENTER could & would do it all:clap::clap:


BACK IN THE DAY is right.


----------



## Burns-Built (May 8, 2009)

I'm 26 so I guess I am the exception to the rule :clap:


----------



## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

More knowledgeable in what? A whole house build? Or just the smartest guy on the job. I hate to admit it but electricians are a pretty smart crowd. But don't trust them to cut you anything


----------



## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Who gets paid more per hour ------ that's the smartest one 

Licensing being equal a GC should have a broader knowledge and the trade licenses should have deeper technical knowledge in their respective trades. Equal but different?


----------



## Trim40 (Jan 27, 2009)

I gotta vote for my fellow carpenters. We built outhouses before the plumber put the toilet in or sparky installed a fart fan.


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Well the framer puts the house there, making sure that the joist spacing is there for toilets, tubs, showers, venting etc. and no joists under wet walls.

A good framer will stack his nails so the plumbers and sparky's don't chew up their holesaws.

The HVAC guys will be taken into consideration for ducting and return air.

The drywaller will be happy to have backing where needed and straight, flat walls and ceilings to work with.

All door and window roughs will allow for full trim to keep the finish guy happy.

Kitchen walls will get particularly close attention for straightness.

The flooring guy will have a nice, square room to work with.....

and on, and on, and on....

A good framer is worth his weight in gold....and any of you other trades that have had to work around a bad one should know that.:whistling


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

loneframer said:


> Well the framer puts the house there, making sure that the joist spacing is there for toilets, tubs, showers, venting etc. and no joists under wet walls.
> 
> A good framer will stack his nails so the plumbers and sparky's don't chew up their holesaws.
> 
> ...



I agree absolutely. The point of my posts was to say most framers arent that good these days. Im speaking in general terms. 

Im with the guy above who said electricians are a pretty smart crowd on the whole, and usually understand what is going on better than anyone but the carpenters.

My vote is carpenters. To ratify that, what are most project supers and builders back grounds? Carpenters.


----------



## RandyB1986 (Jan 2, 2009)

I think the excavator & mason are most important and better know what they are doing.... that's where it starts. 

I think you guys are describing handymen............not carpenters. Most carpenters I have met don't have a clue about flashing and roofing.


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

I know lots of electricians and while they understand the properties of electricity, they are generally uneducated in other phases of construction. That's just my observation of the electricians I know.

Hell, the most intelligent sparky I know calls every wood member in the house a beam.:laughing:


----------



## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

In my opiniom, a good framer has a better understanding of what has to happen on site, and, why, how and when.
I wish I was a good framer, but I'm not. I am good at a lot of other things.:whistling
Like Lone said, It's the framer who makes everyone elses job work out. :clap:


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

I go for Carpenters.

On a job a Carpenter is the Foreman. Other trades have their Foreman but when a question or problem arises they ALL go the the Carpenter.

Most GC's I know come from a Carpenter background.

I have never met a job Super that didn't have a Carpentry background. Heck most have a GC license anyways. 

In regards to the above not ALL Carpenters get to this point.
Some know nothing more than banging wood and know little or nothing about other trades. But then they don't always have work either...:thumbsup:


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Framers are cool, but not all framers are Carpenters IMO


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Framers are cool, but not all framers are Carpenters IMO


I agree. Same for any specialization of the trade.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I tell my plumber all the time, carpenters have been around since Christ walked the earth, but plumbers?


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I tell my plumber all the time, carpenters have been around since Christ walked the earth, but plumbers?


:thumbsup:


----------



## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

I would have put it, Not all carpenters are framers


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

B.D.R. said:


> I would have put it, Not all carpenters are framers


There's where I differ I believe in order to call yourself a carpenter you have to no how to frame. 
I know plenty of framers that can't hang a door if their life depended on it. But I don't know any journeyman carpenter that can't frame.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> There's where I differ I believe in order to call yourself a carpenter you have to no how to frame.
> I know plenty of framers that can't hang a door if their life depended on it. But I don't know any journeyman carpenter that can't frame.


:thumbsup:


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Our electrician is also our plumber. He is a friggin' genius, and a real artist (his work is a vision of beauty....yea, wires and pipes.....gorgeous); he also will GC small jobs once in a while.

We have had this discussion before. We agreed completely,

He wires and plumbs a house, has to be very knowledgeable, but his work is mostly repetitive, with minor variations. 

Carpenters have to....frame a house (see Lone's), finish out the interior (could include installing cabs, trim and all the intersecting details, built-in closets, windows and doors, etc. etc. etc.

Then on to the exterior. Sheathing, vapor/moisture management, trim, siding, venting, window/door flashing/weatherproofing, decks, porches etc. etc.

All these tasks come in a number of differing options and require a varied skill set. Pocket, bypass, pre-hung, custom from scratch, reclaimed/re-install, interior, exterior; and that's just doors. 

A good carpenter is really 10 or more subs condensed into one job title. He/she has to have a good grasp on what most of the other trades will be doing and why he must prepare for/or finish after them.

On the other hand, tile guys barely need to know how to tie their shoes.:laughing:

Did somebody actually say excavators? No offense.....but c'mon.


----------



## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Every sub should be the most knowledgeable person in his trade on the job site, what gear in a clock is more important?


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

jlsconstruction said:


> Every sub should be the most knowledgeable person in his trade on the job site, what gear in a clock is more important?


But an electrician doesn't need to know anything about Any other trade same with a plumber. A carpenter needs to know a little about every trade. All the way from backing out for tubs, showers, drywall, electrical panels, hvac, chasing ducts. Building plumbing walls etc. The whole nine yards. Then the carpenter comes in in the end and does finish.


----------



## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

I think we should all take a moment and remember what profession God chose while on earth.


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

jlsconstruction said:


> Every sub should be the most knowledgeable person in his trade on the job site, what gear in a clock is more important?


 Gears don't mean nuttin' without the hands.......

As far as "important"; the most important "gear" on a job is the one that chooses you as a sub, writes your checks, or withholds your final payment and/or back-charges you when you screw up.

He's called "the boss".........and he was/is most likely a Carpenter.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

jhark123 said:


> I think we should all take a moment and remember what profession God chose while on earth.


:thumbsup:


----------



## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

jhark123 said:


> I think we should all take a moment and remember what profession God chose while on earth.


God? You mean Jesus.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Gears don't mean nuttin' without the hands.......
> 
> As far as "important"; the most important "gear" on a job is the one that chooses you as a sub, writes your checks, or withholds your final payment and/or back-charges you when you screw up.
> 
> He's called "the boss".........and he was/is most likely a Carpenter.


:thumbsup:


----------



## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Gears don't mean nuttin' without the hands.......
> 
> As far as "important"; the most important "gear" on a job is the one that chooses you as a sub, writes your checks, or withholds your final payment and/or back-charges you when you screw up.
> 
> He's called "the boss".........and he was/is most likely a Carpenter.


Thought we were talking about subs. Lol. And I'm not saying one way or another. All I'm saying is you could build the nicest house in the world and if an electrician messes up it burns down or if the plumber messes up you have water damage. So everyone should be a master at their trade.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Lets not forget the drywall finishers, you can have the best, tightest framing in the world, but if the drywall is hacked your screwed.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

jlsconstruction said:


> Thought we were talking about subs. Lol. And I'm not saying one way or another. All I'm saying is you could build the nicest house in the world and if an electrician messes up it burns down or if the plumber messes up you have water damage. So everyone should be a master at their trade.


True, but not addresing the OPs question. Which sub is kost knowledgeable in general?


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> True, but not addresing the OPs question. Which sub is kost knowledgeable in general?


Ah, yer right, keyword, knowledgeable


----------



## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> True, but not addresing the OPs question. Which sub is kost knowledgeable in general?


Well the question doesn't matter seeing the gc has the final say. Right?


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

jlsconstruction said:


> Well the question doesn't matter seeing the gc has the final say. Right?


Not necessarily, if I'm wrong I will give my sub there due process.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

jlsconstruction said:


> Well the question doesn't matter seeing the gc has the final say. Right?


Like has been said previously, most GCs are carpenters/ex-carpenters.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Not necessarily, if I'm wrong I will give my sub there due process.


:thumbsup:


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Getting back to the OP, you have to define "most knowledgeable". 

General carpentry requires a smattering of just about everything the specialists do, but without their in-depth knowledge of one particular specialty. A specialist by definition isn't as concerned with the broad view; he is expected to be an expert at one thing only.

Each can take many years of training and experience to reach "exceptional" status. Bottom line, the question is unanswerable without a lot more qualification than stated.


----------



## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

Tinstaafl said:


> Getting back to the OP, you have to define "most knowledgeable".
> 
> General carpentry requires a smattering of just about everything the specialists do, but without their in-depth knowledge of one particular specialty. A specialist by definition isn't as concerned with the broad view; he is expected to be an expert at one thing only.
> 
> Each can take many years of training and experience to reach "exceptional" status. Bottom line, the question is unanswerable without a lot more qualification than stated.


So, I'll say it. The framer is usually the most knowledgeable, in part due to the fact that we're there the longest. We have to prepare the job for every trade that follows, starting with a snaky, out of level/square foundation setting in a sea of mud, with a blueprint from 1-50 pages and 5 trucks of lumber with no instruction on where it all goes. When we leave it's pretty simple for everybody else to cut/drill/cover it up if we know what they need.

It's also easier for us to f*** up every other trade if we want.:laughing:


----------



## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

Tinstaafl said:


> Getting back to the OP, you have to define "most knowledgeable".
> 
> General carpentry requires a smattering of just about everything the specialists do, but without their in-depth knowledge of one particular specialty. A specialist by definition isn't as concerned with the broad view; he is expected to be an expert at one thing only.
> 
> Each can take many years of training and experience to reach "exceptional" status. Bottom line, the question is unanswerable without a lot more qualification than stated.


 The problem is the definition of "carpenter". How broad of a scope?

But, of all the "experts" brought in to complete a truly exceptional home, the expert carpenter is the one possessing the broadest, deepest, and most diverse knowledge and skill base.

Great carpenters know all the things previously discussed in prior posts, and everything else in between those experts. A smattering of all (which equals an immense body of knowledge alone), plus, in-depth expertise encompassing a huge variety of carpentry skills (their specialty). The ultimate "experts".

Come to think of it, why isn't our President a carpenter? Community organizer=interior designer. Bush=site super/son of the developer. Wonder why our jobsite is a mess? Gary Johnson was a carpenter. Gary Johnson 2016.:thumbup:

Framers certainly can make or break a project, but "Most Knowledgeable"? "Most influential"......definitely. "Best Dressed"? AV/security/controls guys.


----------



## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

There is a difference in knowing HOW to frame, and being a good framer.
I've had to move joists for tubs and toilets, studs for taps.
Ive had to plane down doorways because they can't nail two 2x4's together. Wrong size openings for closets. Stairs with no allowance for finished floors. No backing for railings. Kitchens framed on 24 inch centers. The list goes on. We've all seen it
Almost all carpenters can frame. I'm refurring to a good framer who knows his sh#t


----------



## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Jaws said:


> BACK IN THE DAY is right.


There's still a lot of us that do everything, I usually do unless its a big job and I don't have time. 



Spike7 said:


> I always feel the carpenter has to know a bit more


I don't see any argument as to who knows more or who has more tools. When a plumber shows up in his van, I see a lot more crap in there than I would ever carry around as a carpenter. Electricians can rack up a lot of money in tools depending on what they are doing, does anyone know how much a digital oscilloscope cost? One of these:









Do you know how long it would take to master how it works and how to troubleshoot with it? I don't see how practically any trade takes more or less knowledge than a carpenter. My drywall finisher has been doing drywall longer than I've been doing all my trades put together. You might say he knows more about drywall than I do with all of the skills that I have. You can say that I am more versatile than he is. But I don't see what you're trying to prove.


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

B.D.R. said:


> There is a difference in knowing HOW to frame, and being a good framer.
> I've had to move joists for tubs and toilets, studs for taps.
> Ive had to plane down doorways because they can't nail two 2x4's together. Wrong size openings for closets. Stairs with no allowance for finished floors. No backing for railings. Kitchens framed on 24 inch centers. The list goes on. We've all seen it
> Almost all carpenters can frame. I'm refurring to a good framer who knows his sh#t


And that defines my point. A good framer leaves a building ready for all the other trades and if he did his job properly, those trades will breeze through and his work goes uncriticized and often underappreciated.

Throw a few crooked studs in the kitchen, a few joists under tub drains, leave out a bunch of nailers/backing, frame the building to the blockwork instead of squaring it up, toss in a few huge crowned joists and maybe crown a few more upside down.... everybody notices that.:whistling


----------



## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

If you cannot frame you are not a carpenter.


----------



## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

jhark123 said:


> I think we should all take a moment and remember what profession God chose while on earth.


 Architect:thumbsup: Jesus was the carpenter/ taper


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

iDAHOchris said:


> Architect:thumbsup: Jesus was the carpenter/ taper


I'd also think God is a structural engineer, with a stamp of coarse:thumbsup:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

KennMacMoragh said:


> There's still a lot of us that do everything, I usually do unless its a big job and I don't have time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand, but in my experience you are the exception.
Its rare to find a younger carpenter who is competent in most aspects of the construction of a home or building.


----------



## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

great responses !

I agree with the carpenter answer . I didn`t even think about the framer as being so important , but it seems right on .

they have to set up for the plumber , a/c mechanic , and electrician
to do this he has to have some knowledge of them all.
a plumber can walk in , and start piping as long as the framing is right.
he doesn`t have to know how to frame . he just has to know " that studs in my way, but he doesn`t have to know framing.
same with the electrician 

we have to communicate with all the subs 
but the subs to necessarily have to communicate with each other , 
a plumber doesn`t usually have to bump heads with the a/c mechanic.
the electrican rarely has to deal with a roofer
but a framer has to deal with all of them , and could possibly halt any of them if something is not framed out right ,from plumbing/electric/a/c /drywall/roof trusses/ etc.
so , over the years he is taught by all these different subs , what to , and what not to do.

yeah .carpenters / framers have to deal with all the subs

a good sub should know enough about all the other subs , so as not to interfere with or make their work harder .
not that they do.
I`ve had subs come in , and think they are the only guys on the job, and they get annoyed when others are there , and slow them down.
I`ve had subs do their job , and leave their " chit" where it lays , and walk out , not considering the other guys working there.
I`ve had good subs , who if somethings not framed right , will grab a saw and put a stud where they need it . others might not , and just walk out pissed.
some refuse to think for themselves , and will put a receptacle, pipe , duct right where the plans show it , and not even think " wait , that's wrong", and they just say " hey ! I followed the plans!"

I guess its up to each subs interpretation


----------



## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

you know 
we should slip this post into the electric, and plumbing section , and 
see what happens:laughing:


----------



## spartancc (Dec 4, 2011)

Spike7 said:


> you know
> we should slip this post into the electric, and plumbing section , and
> see what happens:laughing:


damn!! ya beat me to it


----------



## spartancc (Dec 4, 2011)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> Gears don't mean nuttin' without the hands.......
> 
> As far as "important"; the most important "gear" on a job is the one that chooses you as a sub, writes your checks, or withholds your final payment and/or back-charges you when you screw up.
> 
> He's called "the boss".........and he was/is most likely a Carpenter.


i like this guy


----------



## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

wnc viking said:


> If you cannot frame you are not a carpenter.


Can't say I agree with you at all.
I can build your cabinets , entertainment center , mantle , hang your custom doors, do your custom crown and trim. Develope your basement, build you a beautiful custom bathroom, Including drywall tape and tile. I can do a great job of any siding you want.
I do not feel that it would be in your best interest to have me frame your house. 
I would need the help of a FRAMER who knows more than me.
I have dug, framed, cribbed, and roofed, so I have an understanding of what is involved.
Still wouldn't call myself a framer.
Do I qualify as a carpenter.
I think so.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

B.D.R. said:


> Can't say I agree with you at all.
> I can build your cabinets , entertainment center , mantle , hang your custom doors, do your custom crown and trim. Develope your basement, build you a beautiful custom bathroom, Including drywall tape and tile. I can do a great job of any siding you want.
> I do not feel that it would be in your best interest to have me frame your house.
> I would need the help of a FRAMER who knows more than me.
> ...


Usually a carpenter frames first, then learns finish, it's rarely the other way around. Not to mention a carpenter, IMO should be able to set forms too.


----------



## CSinMa (Mar 4, 2012)

it's has to be the painter with the most knowledge because a little caulk and a little paint will make a carpenter look like what he ain't....lol


----------



## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

Jaws said:


> BACK IN THE DAY is right.


Back in the day we also didn't have as many rules and regs. 
Just sayin


----------



## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

I worked as a framers helper on 5 or 6 houses, and went back to college for a year, taking a Renovation Contractor Program. I then worked for a renovation company doing high end work for over 5 yrs.
We did everything except electric and plumbing.
I went back to new houses for 3yrs as a helper / cutter / finisher / cabinet builder etc etc.
Then back to reno's on my own.
Next was back to new construction, building to 7 employees doing finishing, tile and kitchens. as well as supervising the trades for the builder.
Parted way's, shed some workers, and did a couple of large projects.
Now I work with one other guy. Have way fewer headaches and make probably the same money.
It's nice to be on the tools again.
I feel quite comfortable calling myself a " Renovation carpenter"
Where is the horn blowing emoticon?:laughing:


----------



## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

wnc viking said:


> If you cannot frame you are not a carpenter.


If you cannot frame - you are not a framer.
If you cannot set forms, you are not a form carpenter.
If you cannot hang or trim doors, you are not a trim carpenter.

But ALL of them ARE carpenters.

If you cannot do Gyny work you are not a doctor?
If you don't do sports medicine, you are not a doctor?
If you only treat allergy patients you are not a doctor?

As for who is the most knowledgeable trade - why obviously it's the sweeper, because he/she is smart enough to not get into these pissing matches...
:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I understand what you are saying BDR. A true carpenenter should be able to set forms, frame, build cabinets, complete a trim out, set windows, doors, do cornice and siding competently. 

I can do all of those, but I wouldnt say I am a framer when speaking in general, or a cabinet guy. Especially if comparing to pros like Warren, Lone, Birch, Leo, Kent to name a few. I can lay wood floors compentently, but I am not a wood floor guy, like Pinwheel. I dont do those things day in and day out. Or a deck guy like California or Robert, to name a few.

But generally speaking, a carpenter should feel compentent framing a house, IMHO. Just may not be as fast and efficient as a guy who does it day in and day out.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

As for who is the most knowledgeable trade - why obviously it's the sweeper, because he/she is smart enough to not get into these pissing matches...
:laughing::laughing::laughing:[/QUOTE]

:laughing:


----------



## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Jaws said:


> As for who is the most knowledgeable trade - why obviously it's the sweeper, because he/she is smart enough to not get into these pissing matches...
> :laughing::laughing::laughing:



I've actually seen more fights over how to sweep a floor than anything. You're sweeping too slow, you're not sweeping good enough, you're not bending over far enough when you push the broom, you're sweeping on the wrong side of the building... it goes on and on.

Next time you're on a crew, when it comes time to sweep the floor watch how many fights and arguments break out. I've been scolded out plenty of times for my sweeping techniques. I don't make any judgements as to what's the most difficult trade as I stated before. But from what I see, sweeping a floor is up there.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

KennMacMoragh said:


> I've actually seen more fights over how to sweep a floor than anything. You're sweeping too slow, you're not sweeping good enough, you're not bending over far enough when you push the broom, you're sweeping on the wrong side of the building... it goes on and on.
> 
> Next time you're on a crew, when it comes time to sweep the floor watch how many fights and arguments break out. I've been scolded out plenty of times for my sweeping techniques. I don't make any judgements as to what's the most difficult trade as I stated before. But from what I see, sweeping a floor is up there.


:laughing::laughing:

Your right! Had never thought about it. I took a lot of chit coming up about sweeping :laughing:


----------



## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

KennMacMoragh said:


> I've actually seen more fights over how to sweep a floor than anything. You're sweeping too slow, you're not sweeping good enough, you're not bending over far enough when you push the broom, you're sweeping on the wrong side of the building... it goes on and on.
> 
> Next time you're on a crew, when it comes time to sweep the floor watch how many fights and arguments break out. I've been scolded out plenty of times for my sweeping techniques. I don't make any judgements as to what's the most difficult trade as I stated before. But from what I see, sweeping a floor is up there.


Oh man..there is nothing I love better than the day we cut out door plates and I can sweep the whole house!! My partner thinks I am nuts, and he's right, but he knows not to grab the broom....thats mine..lol.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> If you cannot frame - you are not a framer.
> If you cannot set forms, you are not a form carpenter.
> If you cannot hang or trim doors, you are not a trim carpenter.
> 
> ...


Yes, but framing is something most carpenters learn first, I came up in the union so that may be where I get my opinions. But form setting, and framing should be a requirement to call yourself a journeyman carpenter, IMO.

Usually our door hangers and finish guys were the old timers, that everybody went to with the complicated issues of the building, because they were 150 years old and at that point had pratically seen it all. I came up through commercial, and am pushing 50 so things are changing all the time.

When I was an apprentice they stuck me for three years with this 150 year old man, hangin doors. He was grouchy as hell, but I learned things from that old man that I didn't even realize until years later. 

But my point is that old man started out just like I did. He's dead now but I always think "what would old pete do" when I run into complicated issues.


----------



## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

As far as i am concerned its the carpenter.
We have the most versatile set of skills and have the most responsibility... yet the pay is less then most trades.
From building layout, to finishing, there is always a carpenter on site (essentially).


----------



## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

You never hear an electrician asking who is the smartest sub on the job:whistling

Around here we are usually the only ones speaking english


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TxElectrician said:


> You never hear an electrician asking who is the smartest sub on the job:whistling
> 
> Around here we are usually the only ones speaking english


But an electrician doesn't qualify for a GC license, not in Cali any way. However a carpenter does, there's a reason for that.


----------



## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

After following this thread for a while, I have decided this thread should be change to what sub is the most versatile, because you can't effectively determine the knowledge base of any one sub.


----------



## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

I see this post been going for sometime now and I just got to reading a few posts, and I'm sure someone mentioned this before (if not I will add to the mix) that each trade is knowledgeable in its own field or should be to say the least. Each trade must keep up with the code updates, that is theirs job. 

From my experience, the most knowledgeable guy in the field is or should be a GC. GC runs the whole operation, stays on top of the codes, dealing with engineering, architects, building department, etc. His job to oversee the whole aspect of construction process starting from nothing and finish with a Certificate of Occupancy not to mention deliver the project on time and to a complete customer satisfaction. 
I have seen a bunch of jobs and spoke to many trades and everyone said one thing... if a GC on the job don't know what they doing or has no clue how to run a job, the whole job goes in the toilet.

I have almost 30 years in the field and I still ask my Trades when I have a question about something I never ran in before, or go over with them what would be the best way to handle a certain situation and meet the code at the same time. 
I'm sure they been faced with certain situations before doing this day in and out... and they suggest to me the best way of doing this or if they don't know, they will simply say I will get back to you with this, I need to figure this out...
Then we both will do some research and try get some information and that is when places like CT become real handy. After we talk again and compare notes, we figure out the best solution and I will take that to my carpenter or to the next trade who will be involved in the next stage of construction process.

Every trade who is involved in any construction project is knowledgeable and experienced and that is why they on that job to begin with... Because a HO or a GC puts theirs trust in people they hire because of theirs knowledge and experience. Not to mention that the only way to complete any project on time and have a satisfied customer in the end, is to have everyone working together so everything runs smoothly.

Therefore, being around a little bit and from my experience running a s^*t load of projects whether it's a small addition or a 20 home development, I learned one thing and not only on the job, but in life as well... _One who thinks they knows everything, they don't know s^*t. _ 

It's all about doing it together and thinking about the next guy, only then everyone on the job knows what they doing.

Happy Contracting my Friends :thumbsup:


----------



## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Like Greg, I've been watching this one too.

My vote goes to carpenters. The 10% of them that actually do it all. Not todays specialized ones that excel at one or two things.

Where I grew up there were guys that built from the ground up to handing the buyers the keys to the front door.

I can't hardly think of anyone I personally know hear, that can do it all. 

I think less populated areas would have more ''do it all'' carpenters out of necessity.


----------



## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

overanalyze said:


> After following this thread for a while, I have decided this thread should be change to what sub is the most versatile, because you can't effectively determine the knowledge base of any one sub.


yeah , that's true.

either way its almost a trick question , because on every job , the answer would be different.
the framer on this job , could be a guy who keeps his head down , works for " piece" and just wants to do his job , and get "outa dodge!"
good or not , he might not even consider being responsible for anything but getting his check.

also the reference to the definition of " carpenter" is a tough one 
a good framer , isn`t necessarily a full on carpenter is it?
I did start out framing too 
framing is a great thing to know first. it relates to all the other carpentry trades.- decking , fencing even installing crown molding , it pays to know basically the stud layout so you know where they are if you have to hit them , same with cabinetry, roofing,even tile installation .the window treatment guy even has to know where the wood lays

layout is key to everything in the trades 
, so learning to layout a wall over and over drums into you how important it is to "layout " your job in general.
framing is that pivotal trade that everything centers around.

yea you can be a good cabinet maker who never framed or worked "rough", but you need to know the framing layout when installing. need to know basically how the electrician , and plumber might have put a pipe , just so you won`t screw into it.
you have been better if you did start out framing or learning the rough first.( or, sorry , but , your just another self-centered trade that doesn`t consider the whole package)

as the g.c. I`m supposed to be the most knowledgable, but I get stumped all the time by other subs on things I should have known.( of course , I retort with " of course that's the way it goes! whatdya ? think I`m stupid!!:whistling)

I guess we , the g.c. and carpenters all think they are the most knowledgable , because we do have to look at the big picture, and consider all the other subs.
we`re the "prep" guys for everyone .
we`re there first 
we`re there last.

no it doesn`t mean we`re the most knoweledgable

it just means we`re THE MOST IMPORTANT!!!!:clap::whistling:thumbup::no::blink::jester:

that oughta start some more responses !:laughing:


----------



## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

A "true" carpenter can build a house from start to finish. If you cannot do that you are not a true carpenter you might be a framer. A cabinet maker a trim Guy. Or a remodeler .


----------



## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

paint , carpet??? Drywall hangig and taping??Start to finish?? What part of house do you mean. Carpenter is someone who works with WOOD. I know some dam good CARPENTERS who dont know how to frame with steel. Im sure they could but they prefer WOOD


----------



## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

iDAHOchris said:


> paint , carpet??? Drywall hangig and taping??Start to finish?? What part of house do you mean. Carpenter is someone who works with WOOD. I know some dam good CARPENTERS who dont know how to frame with steel. Im sure they could but they prefer WOOD


That would be a COMMERCIAL carpenter.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

wnc viking said:


> A "true" carpenter can build a house from start to finish. If you cannot do that you are not a true carpenter you might be a framer. A cabinet maker a trim Guy. Or a remodeler .


Actually a Carpenter can form, frame and finish. But it doesn't mean he should know other Trades, like plumb, elect., mechanical. But he should have a basic knowledge of those trades as it pertains to his framing.


----------



## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

wnc viking said:


> A "true" carpenter can build a house from start to finish. If you cannot do that you are not a true carpenter you might be a framer. A cabinet maker a trim Guy. Or a remodeler .


Effing purist!:laughing::laughing:


----------



## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

Here in western north Carolina there a lot if people that think because they have nail bags and a saw they are a carpenter. And a lot of then the only thing they can do is vinyl siding. And they are not real good at that. I may be a purest but when I was growing up and learning the trade in up state NY from my dad we did almost everything. The only thing my dad did sub was grading hvac and carpet.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

wnc viking said:


> Here in western north Carolina there a lot if people that think because they have nail bags and a saw they are a carpenter. And a lot of then the only thing they can do is vinyl siding. And they are not real good at that. I may be a purest but when I was growing up and learning the trade in up state NY from my dad we did almost everything. The only thing my dad did sub was grading hvac and carpet.


Yes but that is considered a GC not a trade, the OP was asking about a trade.


----------



## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

May be I am wrong. But I think that if you cannot frame a house with rafters. And build stairs you cannot call your self as a carpenter.


----------



## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

the problem with the definition of a carpenter , if it means you have done all the carpentry trades , , almost nobody would fit the bill , except a guy who never struck to one field his whole life
either you`ve hopped around your whole life , and constantly did different aspects of the trade, or you`ve only done a few of them only once or twice , and can`t really say you are excelled in it.
how many jobs require you to do all aspects of carpentry?
I`ve done framing , grid ceilings roofing , metal framing,, drywall, plaster,stucco ,, doors and frames , windows , all the millwork.tinkered with electric , plumbing, tile.
am I totally schooled in every one of them?
do I have to be to be called a carpenter?
or do I have to have just done them?
whos to decide when your the actual definition of " carpenter"?

an electrician, or plumber hasn`t necessarily worked in all sections of his trade . I mean would they have to have done industrial,?
run main pipes that supplies the city and state? . underground work , work on ships...etc.?
does a roofer have to have installed every single tile to be called a roofer?
where would it end?


----------



## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

I do a lot of jobs where I do all parts of carpentry lay out dig footers. Sometimes times lay a few block. Frame it. Hang and finish sheet rock. Siding. Trim it out set cabinets. And do the roof.


----------



## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm just wondering whether there are at least two plumbers anywhere that sweat pipe in the same exact way. Kind of like finding two Home Depots with the same layout - never gonna happen.


----------



## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

wnc viking said:


> I do a lot of jobs where I do all parts of carpentry lay out dig footers. Sometimes times lay a few block. Frame it. Hang and finish sheet rock. Siding. Trim it out set cabinets. And do the roof.


I just don`t see where that's practical anymore.
( no disrespect meant at all)
if you do it all for yourself ,your limiting yourself.
we do certain aspects, and sub out others where it is actually cheaper to have someone else do it.
that clears you up to deal with the other subs.
it also clears you up to go out and sign other jobs.
I can have a drywall company come in , and do that for much cheaper than it cost me , and it is a very good job.
same with the finishing.and stucco..

I truly don`t want to dig footer , and tie steel , and pour concrete any more , and I bet most guys in the trades would agree as they get past 50. what do I do ? retire? because I can`t do it all?

so is it just a pride thing to say , I can do it all?
I don`t feel its fair to say that's the only way you can call yourself a carpenter.
I mean I have done all the trades through my life . I probably can call myself a carpenter. but I have run into guys who are excellent at remodeling, who can do quite a few different trades. but maybe they didn`t sheet a roof , or tie steel , or put up siding

does that really mean they aren`t a true carpenter??
and whats the point of the title at that point .

would I pay more to a guy who is the true defineition of a carpenter( your definition) over the guy who can frame , and do the trim the way I want it , but has never done all the other trades?
the guy who has done it " all" might not be as good as the guy who has specialized at only remodeling
so is the carpenter better , because of the title?
is he worth more money?


----------



## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

I think I " quoted" the wrong guy sorry:blink:


----------



## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

I do not always do it all but on some jobs it is just quicker to do most of it not waiting a day or two for a sub to show up. Like remodeling a bathroom. And it can be hard to get a Mason to come and lay 150 blocks. When you need it you might have to wait 5 to 15 days when he can fit in a small job


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Spike7 said:


> the problem with the definition of a carpenter , if it means you have done all the carpentry trades , , almost nobody would fit the bill , except a guy who never struck to one field his whole life
> either you`ve hopped around your whole life , and constantly did different aspects of the trade, or you`ve only done a few of them only once or twice , and can`t really say you are excelled in it.
> how many jobs require you to do all aspects of carpentry?
> I`ve done framing , grid ceilings roofing , metal framing,, drywall, plaster,stucco ,, doors and frames , windows , all the millwork.tinkered with electric , plumbing, tile.
> ...


The union has the different levels pinpointed.


----------



## bcservices (Jan 9, 2013)

*Right Answer*

Anyone try to do the job correctly without the other person being involved in the job. The correct answer is that in today's world we can't complete a job without each other.


----------



## Crete (Jan 22, 2013)

I would hope each sub would ge the most knowledgeable about their trade. I have ran into plenty of GC that thought they knew it all but didn't have a clue.


----------



## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

The thing is, carpenters can be broken down into many trades. A framing carp need not know how to trim a door, a trim carp doesn't have to know how to frame a roof, a cabinet maker doesn't need knowledge of either....and so on and so forth...but if the framing carpenter doesn't have a working knowledge of at least the basics of almost every trade, someones pooch is gonna get screwed.


----------



## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

i cant say framers are the most knowledgable. if all they do is frame thats all they know how to do and thats only for new construction. if you get a new construction guy on a reno they cant even grasp the concept of making things work.. cutting things 3/8 slack when tying into something so that a new wall will still be plumb when you get it up in place tying into the old. working with guys that are in new construction suffer from tunnel vision they cant see the big picture. they dont have to work with the subtrades as much as general carpentry guys

id say the finish carpenter who deals in alot of renovations will be more knowledgeable than a framer. the amount of things they run into and how they have to hide sins or make something look like its plumb and level when in reality it isnt.. when they get to a new construction job they dont have to think just do.. the only thinking that has to go on is whether or not they left the stove on before they left


----------



## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

woodworkbykirk said:


> i cant say framers are the most knowledgable. if all they do is frame thats all they know how to do and thats only for new construction. if you get a new construction guy on a reno they cant even grasp the concept of making things work.. cutting things 3/8 slack when tying into something so that a new wall will still be plumb when you get it up in place tying into the old. working with guys that are in new construction suffer from tunnel vision they cant see the big picture. they dont have to work with the subtrades as much as general carpentry guys
> 
> id say the finish carpenter who deals in alot of renovations will be more knowledgeable than a framer. the amount of things they run into and how they have to hide sins or make something look like its plumb and level when in reality it isnt.. when they get to a new construction job they dont have to think just do.. the only thinking that has to go on is whether or not they left the stove on before they left


you know that's pretty much spot on .
I gripe all the time as a remodeling contractor that you can`t just send the guys to an address and say " go do mr. jones house"
where as a painter can,( not disrespecting painters)send the guys to an address , and they`ll know how to prep the house right away.
or plumber or electrician can send out a service guy , and have them go to work without the super, or owner ever coming out.they go out on their own , assess what they have to do , and get started immediately making money.

where as a remodel contractor has to go out , price it out , plan it out , and then have his guys meet out there , and walk it through , and possibly go every day and walk it through again . most times we have to bring the guys materials . they can`t have everything( or most things) on the truck , since basically every job is unique


----------



## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

EthanB said:


> You just described a general contractor, in my opinion. In my books a carpenter works with wood, and that's pretty much it.
> 
> Tell that to Union B.A. .... There are a lot of different things that fall under carpenter work. For instance sheetrock, drop ceilings, steel stud (isn't wood), metal doors, Setting fixed furniture.


----------

