# Shower video and waterproofing



## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

I like this guys showerbench. what do you think?
For some reason i think the schluter system is overpriced. I'm just saying why spend 500 or so on a kit. If you make the pan you are in 25 for portland and sand, and 25 for the drain, and 75 or so for a liner. Then waterproof you walls with something. Here is where there are too many products out there. You got Kerdi, redguard, hydroban, hydroguard and im sure there are more. The kerdi sounds appealing because you get a consistent mil thickness, but for the other three what would you use over durorock? If you put dense-guard could you just hydroban the joints and screwholes with no tape and be done? Is hydroban the same as hydro-guard except hydroban is "structural" so you can fill cracks instead of taping and bedding the seams and then applying th membrane? There are just so many ways to do a shower what is you favorite that is "cost effective"?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

I'm gonna hafta go ahead and disagree with a pre-slope/liner/clamping drain method ever being better than a membrane system :no:

Tear out a hundred or so and report back to me. That method is outdated and inferior period. I don't care about the cost difference. In the grand scheme of things its a tiny cost, spread out over the life of the shower or in comparison to things like benches, niches, glass, fixtures, ect. 

Cheaping out on waterproofing to spend more on say a glass door is assinine for example. Who cares how great a shower looks if it is a mold pit or worse leaks.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)




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## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

Yea I agree. Surface membrane is the only way showers should be built IMO.. I only do Kerdi. I have never and will probably never use the kit. I do the mud floor only, although if the right sized shower came along I might consider the tray. 

Sure it takes me close to an extra day and it adds about $250-300 in materials, therefore I have to charge anywhere from $550-700 +- more. And yes it is not easy to get the extra $$$ However, since I am doing the drain and membrane, the customer does not have to pay a plumber to do it wrong. In the end my way is much better and might be cheaper too.

That video didn't show me much. I watched the first one and a bit of the second. 

I often tell my clients that with my Kerdi membrane, I could install it over Swiss cheese and it would be waterproof. :thumbup:

Jaz


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

JazMan said:


> However, since I am doing the drain and membrane, the customer does not have to pay a plumber to do it wrong. In the end my way is much better and might be cheaper too.


That's a good point right there! :thumbsup:


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## opiethetileman (Apr 7, 2005)

precisionfloors said:


> i'm gonna hafta go ahead and disagree with a pre-slope/liner/clamping drain method ever being better than a membrane system :no:
> 
> Tear out a hundred or so and report back to me. That method is outdated and inferior period. I don't care about the cost difference. In the grand scheme of things its a tiny cost, spread out over the life of the shower or in comparison to things like benches, niches, glass, fixtures, ect.
> 
> Cheaping out on waterproofing to spend more on say a glass door is assinine for example. Who cares how great a shower looks if it is a mold pit or worse leaks.


damn good post


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

jazman you are saying that you do a mudfloor with a kerdi drain? so all of you agree schluter is the only way to go?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

bluebird5 said:


> jazman you are saying that you do a mudfloor with a kerdi drain? so all of you agree schluter is the only way to go?


You absolutely can use a Kerdi-Drain with a mud bed. However, there are definitely other options out there.


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## HandyHails (Feb 28, 2009)

Its ALL about the Kerdi drain. I could take or leave the rest. FWIW I build my pans and use the kerdi drain and fabric on the pan. A strip of Kerdi band and up the walls w/ Duraguard. Quick, easy, inexpensive, and EFFECTIVE!!


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Have you seen the Noble Flex drain flashing? Makes using a typical clamp drain easier when tying into a sheet membrane.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Have you guys seen tilemasterga's other work on utube??? Looks good in the end but seems like he cuts corners...


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## bluebird5 (Dec 13, 2010)

when you use a kerdidrain do you go ahead and attach it to the plumbing and then push your mud under it? I like that bench instead of those ones that attach to the wall. If i was using the schluter system would you put in the bench and then pour your mudpan up to it or would you have the mudpan poured and waterproofed and set the bench and wrap it in kerdi? Angus you said there were other drain options what did you have in mind?


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Shouldn't that video guy have waterproofed the floor and seat?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

bluebird5 said:


> If i was using the schluter system would you put in the bench and then pour your mudpan up to it or would you have the mudpan poured and waterproofed and set the bench and wrap it in kerdi? Angus you said there were other drain options what did you have in mind?


I'd set my seat and then pour the pan. Otherwise your bench is sitting on a sloped pan. 

Noble benches are already waterproofed. 

If you used the Noble Flex drain flashing, you could use a clamp drain with a sheet membrane. This is important if you're using a channel drain.


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## HandyHails (Feb 28, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Have you seen the Noble Flex drain flashing? Makes using a typical clamp drain easier when tying into a sheet membrane.


I just looked it up. Very nice actually. Doesn't seem to be much to it. Seems a bit overpriced at $20 plus shipping for what it does.

I can definitely see your point about the channel drains. That makes a lot of sense. Have you been using the channel in conjunction w/ the standard drain setup, or does the channel have the whole clamp/weep hole assembly built in?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

HandyHails said:


> I just looked it up. Very nice actually. Doesn't seem to be much to it. Seems a bit overpriced at $20 plus shipping for what it does.


But that and a standard clamp drain can be cheaper than a Kerdi-Drain. so many complain and the Kerdi price. There's an alternative.



HandyHails said:


> I can definitely see your point about the channel drains. That makes a lot of sense. Have you been using the channel in conjunction w/ the standard drain setup, or does the channel have the whole clamp/weep hole assembly built in?


The channel drains are all different. The ones I'm leaning towards connect directly to the clamp drain. The Noble Flex flashing is what gives you the sheet membrane option.


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## opiethetileman (Apr 7, 2005)

Kerdi drain is a great thing. Kerdi isnt bad either. I am just a liquid guy. I am not really into hanging wallpaper. There is other companies out there with drains. You just don't hear of them because alot of people dont use them.

Wish LATICRETE had a total package shower drain. But kerdi drain is the bomb. Something I suggested to SCHULTER was why not charge another 20 bucks for a drain and have the drain cover with your company logo on it. I would pay 20 more bucks for it. We all know its there drain.

Like I said before if I did more kerdi i would prob get quicker at it with less issues in the corners. I am missing a finger on my left hand which affected my strength in that hand. So liquid is so much easier for me.


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## ee3 (Feb 10, 2006)

Noble Co.indroduced Chloraloy in 1964 as a shower pan for under mortar beds.
I have now been with the Co. for 30 years..I have NEVER seen a piece of Chloraloy go bad..A shower pan installed correctly is no more likely to mold then one done in a thin set method...I have heard some claim mold free showers..I got $1000.00 that , I can get mold to grow in it..It's about draining and cleaning..You have to do it right,be it a surface applied or not.
The Noble Co. has been doing both types of system longer then any other Co.and warrants both for life.But neither for mold growth on the tile and NO ONE does..


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

ee3 said:


> Noble Co.indroduced Chloraloy in 1964 as a shower pan for under mortar beds.
> I have now been with the Co. for 30 years..I have NEVER seen a piece of Chloraloy go bad..A shower pan installed correctly is no more likely to mold then one done in a thin set method...I have heard some claim mold free showers..I got $1000.00 that , I can get mold to grow in it..It's about draining and cleaning..You have to do it right,be it a surface applied or not.
> The Noble Co. has been doing both types of system longer then any other Co.and warrants both for life.But neither for mold growth on the tile and NO ONE does..


You are assuming that liners under mortar beds are installed correctly, meaning pre-slope and weep holes...the problem in this part of the world, Ontario, is nobody does it and after 22 years of ripping out mortar beds that are saturated with water and mould, I've yet to see one done the "correct" way


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## ee3 (Feb 10, 2006)

If its not done right NOTHING will work ! not a "kerdi shower" or any other, was my point.WRONG IS WRONG.Dont blame the failure's on the product its the installer.


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## opiethetileman (Apr 7, 2005)

I wish they sold NOBLE around theese parts they dont its all special order


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

ee3 said:


> If its not done right NOTHING will work ! not a "kerdi shower" or any other, was my point.WRONG IS WRONG.Dont blame the failure's on the product its the installer.


 
You are absolutely correct, if a product is installed wrong, it will probably fail. So, who is to blame for liners being installed flat on the subfloor in literally thousands upon thousands of homes in Ontario? 

I understand the logic and engineering behind properly done mud pans with liner - water in - water out, however, even if done correctly, I would still go for a Kerdi or Hydroban (with, ahhh, a Kerdi drain!) shower vs. the old way.

It would be interesting to know how older showers are built across North America. For those, like myself, who have ripped out hundreds of tile showers over the years, what do you find? 
As stated, here in Ontario (Southwestern Ontario to be exact) I have to date found 0 showers with a preslope or weeping holes. 

As for walls, I break it down into a couple of categories...showers built in the 60's and earlier, and showers built since.

Of the earlier variety, they were all done with mud

Of all the showers built since I would say 5% had mud walls, 5% had concrete board, and the rest....drywall (with mastic)


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

jarvis design said:


> You are absolutely correct, if a product is installed wrong, it will probably fail. So, who is to blame for liners being installed flat on the subfloor in literally thousands upon thousands of homes in Ontario?
> 
> I understand the logic and engineering behind properly done mud pans with liner - water in - water out, however, even if done correctly, I would still go for a Kerdi or Hydroban (with, ahhh, a Kerdi drain!) shower vs. the old way.
> 
> ...


Your findings are pretty much the exact same as mine. I also agree that given the choice between the two methods, both done correctly, I would still choose a surface membrane over a liner any day of the week - regardless of price. 

Sorry Eric, I think you're gonna have a helluva time getting any pro's who have done both methods, and torn out more than 5 liner showers to agree that they are equal :no:


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## ee3 (Feb 10, 2006)

even if the surface applied membrane was installed flat???You guys in Fla. think its ok to bond to scribing felt ,and that if its on grade you dont even need a shower pan..
Noble invended the surface applied sheet membrane and have a pretty good data base on 10000s of jobs all over the world.If its done the right way with slope following the industry guidlines both work,if you dont follow the directions its not right,simple as that..If no one in your area is doing it right shame on the trade in your area.The requirment for slope has been in both the instuctions and industry guidline;s for ever...I once had someone nail the pan down to the substrate,he didnt do it right either..


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

PrecisionFloors said:


> I'm gonna hafta go ahead and disagree with a pre-slope/liner/clamping drain method ever being better than a membrane system :no:
> 
> Tear out a hundred or so and report back to me. That method is outdated and inferior period. I don't care about the cost difference. In the grand scheme of things its a tiny cost, spread out over the life of the shower or in comparison to things like benches, niches, glass, fixtures, ect.
> 
> Cheaping out on waterproofing to spend more on say a glass door is assinine for example. Who cares how great a shower looks if it is a mold pit or worse leaks.


U wouldn't believe how cheap the people in my city turn when u tell them the price of a schluter shower system. I suggest them everytime, and have only done two out of who knows how many,since its been out... Great pointsA


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I'm a Schluter guy. There are other good systems for sure. But what I like about the Schluter is that it is a complete system. I'm not mixing and matching.

I love useing their presloped pans. It's FAST. You can be laying tile after lunch.

Personaly I don't give the client a choice. If they want me doing their shower it will be Schluter and either epoxy grout or urethane grout only.

Or they can get someone else. I'm not getting any call backs about leaks or mold etc. Don't forget guys, you have to warranty whatever way you do it.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

ee3 said:


> even if the surface applied membrane was installed flat???You guys in Fla. think its ok to bond to scribing felt ,and that if its on grade you dont even need a shower pan..
> Noble invended the surface applied sheet membrane and have a pretty good data base on 10000s of jobs all over the world.If its done the right way with slope following the industry guidlines both work,if you dont follow the directions its not right,simple as that..If no one in your area is doing it right shame on the trade in your area.The requirment for slope has been in both the instuctions and industry guidline;s for ever...I once had someone nail the pan down to the substrate,he didnt do it right either..


 
I don't think Precision was talking about installing a membrane flat. I also don't think you should assume he does things like you mentioned in Florida. 

I agree and disagree with your "shame on you" comment. 

I agree that it is a shame how showers have been (and continue) to be built. 

I could (and I might) write a book on the subject. It would be entitled:

*:furious:The Black Plague of the Tile Industry:furious:*

It's a shame that tile showers and tub surrounds were constructed using drywall and mastic. It's a shame that liners were AND STILL ARE being installed on the subfloor with a clamp drain. 

I'm sure you have heard the term "Disruptive Technologies". This is an innovation that disrupts an existing market.

This can be both a positve and negative. 

When tub surrounds and tile showers started failing, the fibreglass, then acrylic bathware industry was born. They provided a soloution to the problem of poorly installed tile. For these companies, crap tile installations were good for business.

On the other hand, the tile "market" was reduced....That's bad for you and for me.

I am a bathroom remodeller. I only install Tile in my jobs. 
I would say 2 out of 3 estimates I do, the customer has or has had tile in the past and have immediate concerns about installing it again. I exert a lot of time and energy explaining the reasons their old tile fell off or looked like crap and why the new tile I am going to install will last, be easy to maintain, won't leak, and retain its looks for 25 plus years.

And finally, the part I disagree with:

You say shame on the trades...I say shame on the "industry" for allowing these crap installations to happen in the first place. The trades were doing what they were taught....it was just wrong.


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## Groutface (Jan 20, 2011)

jarvis design said:


> I don't think Precision was talking about installing a membrane flat. I also don't think you should assume he does things like you mentioned in Florida.
> 
> I agree and disagree with your "shame on you" comment.
> 
> ...


Bravo! Clapping!


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

When you guys mount shower doors or screw -in accessories with a kerdi shower, do you us kerdi fix or a silicone to fill the holes? Juzz wonderin which is best...


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Tech Dawg said:


> When you guys mount shower doors or screw -in accessories with a kerdi shower, do you us kerdi fix or a silicone to fill the holes? Juzz wonderin which is best...



I prefer to use Kerdi-Fix or Noble Sealant 150 but in a bind, you could use 100% silicone.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

angus242 said:


> I prefer to use Kerdi-Fix or Noble Sealant 150 but in a bind, you could use 100% silicone.


Thanks, my customer had 2 good ideas...
1. "For the large amount of $, Schluter should at least throw in a tube of caulk with the kerdi drain"
2. I just finished hangin kerdi today in a 48" shower. 3 rows, I pc around with no corner build ups, worked good...
He told me that I should make a tripod stand with an adjustable height roller for your kerdi rolls... I don't think ill spend the time but that was a pretty inventive thought


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Tech Dawg said:


> 1. "For the large amount of $, Schluter should at least throw in a tube of caulk with the kerdi drain"


Noble throws in a tube of Sealant 150 with a Noble Linear Drain...


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

ee3 said:


> mold to grow in it..It's about draining and cleaning.


Yup, that's pretty much it.
I keep telling people, "water is pretty easy to predict". People keep trying to make it into some wunderscience, technogobble. It's really not.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

jarvis design said:


> So, who is to blame for liners being installed flat on the subfloor in literally thousands upon thousands of homes in Ontario?


Probably the same ones responsible for the same thing on a lot of high end units in CO.

I think it's structural--from the top down, no one wants to pay for much, so from the top down, there are shortcuts. Not a lot of people in those situations care--from the top down also.

I look at preslopes with chloraloy as roofing work. If they installers are (or feel they are) getting hosed, they'll take all sorts of shortcuts. Sometimes the subs/shops know it, but don't care because, well, like on a roof, the HO's not going to go up there. Did you see my roof pic where every valley failed on a unit? Most of that whole subdivision is like that.....


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Groutface said:


> U wouldn't believe how cheap the people in my city turn when u tell them the price of a schluter shower system.


Takes a good salesman to sell high dollars on something someone can't see.  Gotsta sell that sizzle!


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

In terms of the video, I dont like how he rushed to set the block, I would have liked to have seen him burn the thinset into the block and concrete board better. He just sorta slapped it on. plus he didn't even take off the freaking wonder board plastic tag thingy. I know that those are very small things, but it shows me he cares for speed above all else. What else does he speed through thats my question


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

jarvis design said:


> You are absolutely correct, if a product is installed wrong, it will probably fail. So, who is to blame for liners being installed flat on the subfloor in literally thousands upon thousands of homes in Ontario?
> 
> I understand the logic and engineering behind properly done mud pans with liner - water in - water out, however, even if done correctly, I would still go for a Kerdi or Hydroban (with, ahhh, a Kerdi drain!) shower vs. the old way.
> 
> ...


I can attest to this. I did actually rip out a shower two weeks ago however where the liner actually did hold well and that was with out the preslope to boot. Everything looked brand new underneath the liner and around the wall. Shower was close to 15 years old and frequently used. It is the exception to the rule however. 

Also the walls were cement board with mastic. I think this is the problem here. Sometimes bad products and incorrect installations somehow working, leads HOs to think "it worked there, so why all this extra expensive stuff"

Its like arguments with my Girlfriend lol. I'll point out 99 times something happened and she'll rebuttal with "oh yeah not that one time."

/sigh 


Oh HOs when will you ever learn


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

Tech Dawg said:


> When you guys mount shower doors or screw -in accessories with a kerdi shower, do you us kerdi fix or a silicone to fill the holes? Juzz wonderin which is best...


I use silicone cos thats what i have on hand usually


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

katoman said:


> I'm a Schluter guy. There are other good systems for sure. But what I like about the Schluter is that it is a complete system. I'm not mixing and matching.
> 
> I love useing their presloped pans. It's FAST. You can be laying tile after lunch.
> 
> ...


I have yet to come up to situation where I could use the pre-fab slopes. Do stay within the actual dimensions or do you build up what ever you need to and still use them fore awkward dimensions.

Im also starting to come around to this way of thinking for job installs as well. I like the idea of giving my clients options but most of the time I feel like Im shooting myself in the foot, mentioning lower grade products that I know I dont want to work with, but yet will lower the cost of the job.

Plus most of the jobs in any residential setting only comes down to a couple hundred bucks either way for materials. The more I continue to quote and price the more I realize that a couple hundred bucks on a job that is gonna cost thousands anyways is peanuts. If the client wont foot the bill for it I'll use em anyways even if I have to cut out of my profits a bit. I like to sleep well at night.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Sebastien - I'll cut the pan to fit, or if larger is required you fill the missing area with drypack.

I haven't done one yet where I've had to go just drypack. I did a new base only repair a couple of months ago and was laying tile after lunch. 

You can't do that with drypack.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

jarvis design said:


> never band...always overlap



Why not band? It's less of a build up.


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

jarvis design said:


> never band...always overlap


the first shower I did with kerdi I took the roll and started from bottom up and wrapped it on all three walls and then did another sheet for the top.

It was more time consuming to do it that way, but everything was sealed top to bottom, water had to go straight to the drain and no where else.

but for me i like to band corners its faster and not necessary to do it the other way.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Honestly, when I went to schluter school in Toronto a few years back, that's how they showed us to do it. They said you could cut your sheets to fit, then band, however, as long as you overlap (min. 2") you won't have any issues.

And about the overlap, well, it depends on where it is, I normally install the sheets to put overlaps into corners. The rest I deal with when I tile.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

And just to note, I'm not saying anything bad about using kerdi band. It was just not the way I was taught.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Now that I think about it...My profile pic shows the very first Kerdi install I did, back in 2004, and I did use Kerdi band on that one. That was before I went to "school"


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I know it's not necessary but I build from the bottom up.

Kerdi pan
Perimeter Band
Horizontal Kerdi
Band
Next row Kerdi
Band
Last row Kerdi cut to ceiling.


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

angus242 said:


> I know it's not necessary but I build from the bottom up.
> 
> Kerdi pan
> Perimeter Band
> ...


why not just over lap the two middle sheets and eliminate the band at that point?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Bastien1337 said:


> why not just over lap the two middle sheets and eliminate the band at that point?


The Kerdi/Kerdi overlap is twice as thick as the Band. 

If you're using large format tile and a 1/2" trowel, it's no big deal. Smaller tile, glass or crazy patterns, I much prefer the Band.


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