# Racking



## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

I did a patch on my grandpas roof the other day and i thought i would try racking so i wouldn't have to move the ladder every 3 seconds. It seamed fast, is it a good method. normally i go straight across but maybe im onto something. I would do my first course across and my starters and then cut my shingles accurately and just work up. It took me about 2 minutes to do 8 rows, it would take me alot longer going across?
Is it a good method?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Maybe it's a California thing, but I have never seen a roofer rack shingles.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

griz said:


> Maybe it's a California thing, but I have never seen a roofer rack shingles.


I haven't seen it around here either but then again i dont watch roofers
But when i tried it it appeared ok, and i was going straight


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

I'm not a professional roofer, but I don't agree with having all the seems stacked that way.

One different note..............it's very important to finish off courses every so often to check your parallels to the ridge. You can get off quickly!

our book of starters is 5 courses, you should be able to run 2 books without moving too much....after running out 10 courses we usually measure, snap a line then continue.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

If you want to be anal and broke take your time stagger all the seams all the way across the roof like a type writter or make money and bring the roof straight up from the bottom.

Not being a dick I know everyones different on dimensionals I 3 step and Im the only one in the area I know who does it, as a result Im usually too expensive and rarley do roofs any more.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

WNYcarpenter said:


> One different note..............it's very important to finish off courses every so often to check your parallels to the ridge. You can get off quickly!





tom m said:


> If you want to be anal and broke take your time stagger all the seams all the way across the roof like a type writter or make money and bring the roof straight up from the bottom.


Nick and Tom are right, it's faster and easier. Snap lines and you don't need to finish any courses the whole way across to know you're running true.

If stacked seams bother you, it's easy enough to stagger them just the same as if you were doing one course at a time.

Try it a couple of times and you'll be a believer. :thumbsup:


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## johnk (Apr 23, 2007)

Its ok if you don't need your manufacturers warranty


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Tinstaafl said:


> Nick and Tom are right, it's faster and easier. Snap lines and you don't need to finish any courses the whole way across to know you're running true.
> 
> If stacked seams bother you, *it's easy enough to stagger them just the same as if you were doing one course at a time.
> *
> Try it a couple of times and you'll be a believer. :thumbsup:


That's how I always roof. 5 - 6 courses at a time, stepped back.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

johnk said:


> Its ok if you don't need your manufacturers warranty


After I'm finished, I'd defy you to tell me which way I did it. I don't stack the seams, but it's still faster than traipsing the whole way back and forth across the roof.


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

Maybe I'm missing something.......I thought racking was.....full/half/full/half/full/half............

a book is stepping back 6" every course.........you should be able to start 10 courses without moving...........with architectural............


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## johnk (Apr 23, 2007)

Tinstaafl said:


> After I'm finished, I'd defy you to tell me which way I did it. I don't stack the seams, but it's still faster than traipsing the whole way back and forth across the roof.


I know what your saying and when all said and done,its still done right.But actual racking is...wrong.We use to be able to rack 3-tabs,but they changed that as well.We would use full,2/3,full,2/3,etc..


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

johnk said:


> I know what your saying and when all said and done,its still done right.But actual racking is...wrong.We use to be able to rack 3-tabs,but they changed that as well.We would use full,2/3,full,2/3,etc..


 With 3 tab we always snapped line 29 / 35 off the rake for a one inch overhang. I assume thats what some are calling racking or 2/3 full, 2/3 full.

The majority of all crews out there now do the same 6" offset with architecturals. Thats what I meant. It will never leak its all about identifiying the pattern as it weathers. The seams will become visible in an arch type shingle but may take 10 years with 3 tab the keys camoflauged it better. I always do my arch's 12, 24, 36


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Racking is for beginners and part time roofers. If you learn correctly, the step pattern is actually faster and more efficient, plus you keep your wind warranty. Racking voids the wind warranty every time.


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## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

WNYcarpenter said:


> Maybe I'm missing something.......I thought racking was.....full/half/full/half/full/half............
> 
> a book is stepping back 6" every course.........you should be able to start 10 courses without moving...........with architectural............


Same here full half full half is racking around here.
Stepping them is faster.

Cole


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Okay, I'll backpedal. Guess I was distracted and it was late. At least that's my story.

I don't rack per se; I do a modified book I guess you'd call it. I step 'em 6", but I work up and down the roof rather than across. It does mean lifting shingles to nail, but it's still faster. Done as a two-man operation.

Makes sense to me, anyway. :blink:


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## Lackey (Nov 3, 2009)

not only is racking voiding the warranty but you have a higher chance of premature curling because of the blind nailing, and not being able to blend color differences in bundles. Stepping is the best method ive found to do.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

MJW beginners and part time roofers is a dumb comment. Experience has nothing to do the technique or preference. 
When I was roofing regularly it was difficult to train guys who were used to 6" steps. Employees come and go in the roofing world and if the guy following behind you wasnt used to staggering-- then nails would end up in seams. As far as blow offs thats a joke as well, Ive been roofing since 88 and 17 years for myself, never a blow off or a leak and at one point we were doing a couple of roofs a week regularly.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Lackey said:


> not only is racking voiding the warranty but you have a higher chance of premature curling because of the blind nailing, and not being able to blend color differences in bundles. Stepping is the best method ive found to do.



It does not void any manufacturers warrentee. I checked with the ones sold around here and it is no problem. If someone told you that ask them where in it it is spelled out. If they can't, which they won't be able to do, then it is fine.

Someone has told you guys wrong.

Racking is easier and much faster.

By the way, my credentials are that I owned a roofing and siding company for 15 years before I left the business. I have installed 1000's of squares of shingles with back problems to prove it.

Booking it and racking is fine, just different ways of getting er done!


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

Framer53 said:


> It does not void any manufacturers warrentee. I checked with the ones sold around here and it is no problem. If someone told you that ask them where in it it is spelled out. If they can't, which they won't be able to do, then it is fine.
> 
> Someone has told you guys wrong.
> 
> ...



yea as long as you check going straight up is fasttt


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## Lanya LaPunta (Oct 31, 2010)

*Racking Shingles? You Kiddin' Me?*

I am not a roofer. However, at the age of 57, I've probably a few hundred roofs under my belt.

Racking is veroboten. Not only now, but as long as I've laid shingles.

It voids every manufacturer's warranty, of which I am familiar.

Check out GAF's website, look at their nice little videos (ain't they sweet) and notice how many times "racking your shingles voids the GAF warranty is mentioned.

Never did it, hopefully never will (hopefully, at my age won't lay too many more squares).

Don't do it.

Only "roofers" that I've seen rack shingles were mezskins.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

Framer53 said:


> Someone has told you guys wrong.
> 
> Racking is easier and much faster.


I don't usually believe in parallel universes, but it is strange to think if I'd have learned from you that's what I might think as well.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Go check again with a company Rep. Racking voids the wind warranty. What is said at the local lumber yard or pub is BS and you should know better. J/K  Seriously, it does void the warranty. We have had customers trying to get a claim because the last roofer racked the shingles and they blew off in the wind. No coverage after they saw the method used.

I would like to steal a statement from "Seeyou"........"maybe some learned all they were ever going to learn 20 years ago"


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## davitk (Oct 3, 2008)

In the olden days of three tabs racking was fine. Introduce a laminated shingle, and the problem comes from lifting the shingle to blind nail and the shingle begins to crack where the single and double ply meet. I'm a bit out of the loop these days, but at least that's been my understanding.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I dont see how racking affects wind...the roof seals the same way. Obviously staggering all shingles blends different lot and bundles better, but thats cosmetic. I just got off the GAF site to see where it says racking voids the warranty and I couldnt find it. I did see the little video where they "recommend" not to rack it but thats it. 
If someone has a link share it, Im not saying it doesnt exist, I just couldnt find it and I dont see the logic.


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## johnk (Apr 23, 2007)

If a manufacturers instructions are not followed then you have no warranty.That just makes it easier to deny your claim if racked.Show me a manufacturer that recommends it.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

I couldn't find any admonishments not to rack, but I did find these:


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

^ It says the 'single column method is approved for some types of certainteed shingles'. If it's not listed in the instructions for a different shingle (which it is not for landmarks or OC duration) then they could probably void the warranty for racking. Not that they won't find 20 other reasons to void it regardless (raise your hand if you've made a successful warranty claim). It doesn't say don't start at the top or install them at a 45 degree angle either, but it's easier for them to print what TO do, rather than everything NOT to do.

Most people don't take the time to RTFM, even when it's printed on the product wrapper.

Landmark: http://www.certainteed.com/resources/landmarkinstall.pdf
Duration: http://roofing.owenscorning.com/docs/installationinstructions/duration_install.pdf


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

I'm not advocating racking, although I have done it on the shingles I showed above. I don't do much 3 tab work, but I seldom see a 3 tab roof going on locally that isn't being racked. You can usually see the "zippers" when they're done. 

I'd never consider racking dimensionals. I can't imagine any reason to do it, but I don't think it's "against the law".


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

MJW said:


> Racking is for beginners and part time roofers. If you learn correctly, the step pattern is actually faster and more efficient, plus you keep your wind warranty. Racking voids the wind warranty every time.


You may want to call Certainteed and tell them they have a misprint in the MSA book. Certainteed recommends racking with Super Shangles. 

We don't do three tabs anymore but when we did we racked thousands of them. Never had an issue because we knew what pressure to nail or at one time staple the fasteners into the shingles. If the seal does what it's supposed to do a racked and stair stepped roof with both seal the exact same.

As far as laminate or full tab shingles stair stepped is the only way to go. As a matter of fact a couple years ago had a guy rack them and he was quickly let go.

Again we don't do three tabs anymore so we don't rack anymore... However if we did a three tab roof it would be two line horizontal... Never seen a roofer stair step three tabs.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

We have gotten warranty claims and also have had some denied from both GAF and Certainteed.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

dougger222 said:


> You may want to call Certainteed and tell them they have a misprint in the MSA book. Certainteed recommends racking with Super Shangles.


:thumbsup:

There's an exception to everything. Maybe I shouldn't have said "every time".

It's funny, all these roofers and very few have even had a conversation with a shingle Rep (or so it seems). :whistling:shutup:


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

So lets stop spreading rumors on the whats allowed and whats done regularly. Racking a dimensional wont leak or blow off but will reveal distinct pattern lines as it weathers. I have to assume some shingle styles are are less revealing so the manufacturer offers no preference. If I had a real claim and the sales rep pulled out that scenerio to void a job it would get ugly.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

tom m said:


> So lets stop spreading rumors on the whats allowed and whats done regularly. Racking a dimensional wont leak or blow off but will reveal distinct pattern lines as it weathers. I have to assume some shingle styles are are less revealing so the manufacturer offers no preference. If I had a real claim and the sales rep pulled out that scenerio to void a job it would get ugly.


No rumor here. Have had claims denied solely because the shingles were racked. Some cities around here enforce the code that they must be installed by manufacturers specs. Entire roofs were removed and redone after inspection because they were racked. I wouldn't take it lightly.

As for the wind warranty.......what is it really? If the wind is bad enough, insurance may take care of it anyhow.


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## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

I'm not going to knock contractors who rack their roofs . . . . . . 'cause they've kept me busy the past few weeks making repairs after the 60 + mph winds came through. 

Been good for the bank account also.:clap:

No conjecture . . . . just speaking from current personal experience . . . .

Racking, high nailing and nails in the glue strip seem to be the biggest culprits in the current batch of roof failures.


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## roofny (Mar 18, 2010)

johnk said:


> Its ok if you don't need your manufacturers warranty


 
This is what I was just about to say. I see it all too often.


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## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

tom m said:


> So lets stop spreading rumors on the whats allowed and whats done regularly. Racking a dimensional wont leak or blow off but will reveal distinct pattern lines as it weathers. I have to assume some shingle styles are are less revealing so the manufacturer offers no preference. If I had a real claim and the sales rep pulled out that scenerio to void a job it would get ugly.


Honestly I've seen more stepped dimensionals sliding down the roof due to high nailing (no wind needed) than racked dimensionals. If nailed right I agree they're probably just as likely to stay put when racked.

The problem is, what will you be filing a claim for? As stated, acts of nature are covered by ins. If the customer isn't happy with the looks they would check the install method just like if they had blisters or wore prematurely they might notice there are no vents on the house. Rarely do you get a way to CYA that actually makes the job easier* and doesn't cost more. 

OTOH The rep might ignore the fact that they're racked if you're filing a claim for blisters, which are likely unrelated. One successful claim we filed was for a bumpy appearance from the ground on (racked) OC three tabs. It was a low slope and pine needles or nuts or something were getting in the water lines and lifting corners of tabs. We knew it wasn't the shingles fault, the rep knew it, and probably the HO too but still he insisted that one of us replace the roof. Guess what happened. Wrong, OC bought the roof  . Point being, there's no telling what somebody is going to try to make you pay for five years down the road, so always always CYA.

*Think about it, wouldn't you rather climb a mountain on a diagonal path than going straight up it?


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## FerrisHI (Oct 20, 2010)

lets call it like it is...If your racking dimensional shingles you my friend are a HACK!!!


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

There is so much disinformation on this I just can't believe it.

First as stated before by me, racking does not void any warrentee.
Second, I am disgusted that after all of these years I have discovered I am a hack because I used to rack shingles.

Third, I am calling those that claim to have been told by the shingle manufacturers that racking voids the guarantee, that you are not telling the truth.

Forth, I have yet to have any manufacturers admit there is anything wrong with their shingles, even though I lived and worked during the time that fiberglass based shingles would not seal on roofing products.

Lastly, I have never seen a roof that blew off because of racking. That is just stupid.:sad:


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

Framer53 said:


> There is so much disinformation on this I just can't believe it.
> 
> First as stated before by me, racking does not void any warrentee.
> Second, I am disgusted that after all of these years I have discovered I am a hack because I used to rack shingles.
> ...


Hell, Dave. Let's argue politics. It's less contentious.:laughing:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Okay, this post was confusing me. 3tabs should be racked. Not dimensional. I opened up my GAF Pro Field Roofing guide to look if racking is an approved method for Timberline Dimensional shingles (I assume that is what most of us put on). This is how page 186 reads.


*Racking is not acceptable ... *on any GAF-Elk laminated shingles, including Timberline series.


*Creates poor appearance...* the straight-up roof racking method distorts the natural design pattern of Timberline Shingles.
*I**mproper nailing...* racking often leads to improper nailing. Shingles left un-nailed at the first pass can mistakenly be left un-nailed. Heavyweight shingles like Timberline need proper nailing.
*Can damage shingles...* bending each shingle to nail the "blind nail" can crack the double ply lamination.
*Racking can cause color blend problems...* installing shingles straight up the roof can create up and down color lines on a roof. This color problem is not a manufacturing defect but the result of racking.
* On Weather Stopper Golden Pledge installations, racking is not accepted with Timberline series shingles.*


I was unable to locate anything in my Certainteed MSA book about the Landmark series. Of course this is for only one type of shingle.

Maybe this cleared up some confusing or maybe everyone is talking about different things.


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## [email protected] (Apr 12, 2010)

Stop!!!!!! your ruining the roof...


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## johnk (Apr 23, 2007)

Framer53 said:


> There is so much disinformation on this I just can't believe it.
> 
> First as stated before by me, racking does not void any warrentee.
> Second, I am disgusted that after all of these years I have discovered I am a hack because I used to rack shingles.
> ...


Have you been successful with a claim,with racked shingles that were not 3-tabs?You cannot,should not rack regular dimensional shingles.If you don't see a racking method in installation instructions then it voids your warranty,it's common sense.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

MJW said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> There's an exception to everything. Maybe I shouldn't have said "every time".
> 
> It's funny, all these roofers and very few have even had a conversation with a shingle Rep (or so it seems). :whistling:shutup:


I had M.K. stop out at a roof last week... Haven't had J.B. out to one yet but you never know! He showed us the new syn felt and said it was impossible to tear. My siding budy tore it pretty easy. M.K. was shocked!!!


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

dougger222 said:


> I had M.K. stop out at a roof last week... Haven't had J.B. out to one yet but you never know! He showed us the new syn felt and said it was impossible to tear. My siding budy tore it pretty easy. M.K. was shocked!!!


The new diamond deck is complete garbage. We had 40 square worth of it to use. We used up one roll reluctantly and sent the rest back, even though it was free. 

Not sure of the guys you are referring to. We deal with Howie from CT.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Im surprised at the amount of claims. Truth be told I never had to file for one.

Anyway funny this thing this mourning my nieghbor had his roof done. 7 AM sharp 10 guys, 4 trucks wind and sleet they still tore off small house and garage. They racked the whole dimensional roof and are gone by lunch time. Thats how its is....I would have been there 2 days


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## MrRoofer (Sep 21, 2008)

Its minus turdy with the wind so once again I find myself at the pc...

In the end we had to rack all three tabs, something to do with inconsistent manufacture of 3 tab widths. One bundle being a 16th or an 8th of an inch wider than the rest really messes with your vertical lines, and is extremely hard to constantly correct using the 'book' method. Once in a while you could get away with booking a small piece of roof, but otherwise large sections it was a guaranteed fail. Even with racking every fourth vertical course or so we found ourselves trimming the extra wide shingles. No two shingles are created equal is the lesson here.

With laminates racking just doesnt make sense to me. The whole aspect of lifting a tab to throw in a nail is an extra step equalling extra time. Overstated, when things get cold (as they seem prone to be here), racking leads to a lot of wind damage, so I dont advise it. 

With regard to 'patterns' or 'zippering' on older, weathered roofs, you are going to see that either method, so I dont buy that. You could put em on upside down or backwards and you would still see variations. *THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A PATTERN IRREGARDLESS THE METHOD OF INSTALL!!!*

Having said all that, on a steep roof I understand that racking may well be the best method. The only reason I could see a manufacturer voiding the warranty on racked shingles is for nails blown through from lifting the tab, creating a wind claim. However, a 'good' installer should have no problems racking shingles, ie, they know when to draw the line.

Manufacturer warranties are much more worriesome if you are a small company who knows not the rep, has been my experience. >*infer smiley*<

At the end of the day, I 'book' wherever possible, because it is faster. The whole 'lifting a tab to put a nail in' takes about as long to do as it did to type it, yet I understand not to condemn it outright. 

Nothing beats a well gauged book IMO.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

MJW said:


> The new diamond deck is complete garbage. We had 40 square worth of it to use. We used up one roll reluctantly and sent the rest back, even though it was free.
> 
> Not sure of the guys you are referring to. We deal with Howie from CT.


You must have a different rep up there? Is he a rather large man??? Mike's side kick is a big guy...

That's funny how you got 4 rolls for free. I tried to plead with my lumber yard contact, supply house contact and finally Mike to get 1 free roll and they said NO! You must be quite the roofing pimp to get 4!!! A couple years ago my supply house contact did give me a roll of syn felt.

By the way CT has been bragging up this new syn felt a little shocked you didn't like it. What aspects didn't you like about it? Mike claims everybody loves it but you know how those reps are! All I know is my siding friend and I tore the sample which Mike was impossible. I really had to try hard my siding friend tore it effortlessly. Mike claimed to bring it up at the national meeting recently and was told "They must have really strong fingers". He claims he'd never seen it torn before we got our hands or should I say fingers on it!!!


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

We got to use the "free" rolls on our salesman's house from United Products. Put Lifetime Landmarks on his place. We used one roll and sent the rest back for Roofers Select.

The diamond deck would not roll out straight, even on the ground. It stretches and shrinks and pulls...very thin, needs cap nails.....Wasn't worth dealing with. Hate to say it but the best felt I've used is Shinglemate by GAF, with Roofers Select a close second.

I never believe any of those Reps or salesman when they say "everyone loves it". Not many of the guys they deal with actually use the products on site.


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

So all in all what is the best way to do 3 tabs, typewriter or straight up. Also for archis you can't type writer you have to go 45


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

3-Tabs you should rack - dimensionals you should step.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I still stay its all cosmetic and dont matter. And regardless if there is a valley that will dictate the pattern anyway so all the silly theories can be tossed out.


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