# Electrician didn't use the ufer ground



## nailomatic (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm going to ask my electrician why he only drove two ground rods outside and grounded to those, but didn't ground to the ufer* ground. 

In preparation, before I ask, I'm wondering ... is there any philosophy, argument, benefit, from not grounding to the ufer? 

My understanding is that the ground rods are a kind of backup to the ufer? The ufer should be the primary ground? 

What up? 

* Sorry if 'ufer' isn't spelled right, or whatever. 

Thanks


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## C'est Moi (Jun 6, 2015)

The rods are not required if you have a ufer and the ufer is a far superior electrode. Around here I did a 3 point test and had 89 ohms with 2 rods and on the same property I got 13 ohms to the ufer. Which would you want to deal with surges and lightning


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

A ufer is required. Sounds like your electrician is out of touch with the current code.

Lacking a ufer (such as a existing structure) , only two rods are required.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> A ufer is required. Sounds like your electrician is out of touch with the current code.


PA is still under the 2008 code. Are you saying current code requires a ufer for all new construction? :blink:


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> PA is still under the 2008 code. Are you saying current code requires a ufer for all new construction? :blink:


Yep.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Oy and sheesh.


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## C'est Moi (Jun 6, 2015)

Tinstaafl said:


> PA is still under the 2008 code. Are you saying current code requires a ufer for all new construction? :blink:


NC does noy enforce the ufer but I wish they would. I use it everywhere unless the builder forgets to call me.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I understand the benefits; just irked by the ever-increasing level of regulations everywhere you turn.


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## nailomatic (Oct 23, 2014)

Thanks for the replies everyone! 

Yeah, he does a lot of commercial -- hasn't done a house in a few years. He's safe and extremely knowledgable; he's very busy, working almost every day, and has been doing this for decades. Just out of the residential game too long. 

He had to replace almost every outlet in the house with tamper protected. He was so pissed off, spit was flying out of his mouth while he was bitching. Took him a solid day of work to replace them all. Actuallly both of us. I took pity on him and helped by taking off the covers and unscrewing the outlets. He ALSO had to put in additional arc fault breakers. 

I think his pride was hurt more than anything. I've learned over the years that the best contractors have the most pride.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Is not taking classes, especially code updates, part of the licensing renewal process?


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Is not taking classes, especially code updates, part of the licensing renewal process?


Not in Illinois or Indiana (at least the AHJ's I work in).

Tom


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Who installed the Ufer? Was it inspected?


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

I'd think your diagram should specify a minimum concrete area in contact with the ground, in addition to a minimum length.

Below are some excerpts from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

_Ufer's original grounding scheme used copper encased in concrete. However, the high pH of concrete often causes the copper to chip and flake. For this reason, steel is often used instead of copper.

The conductivity of the soil usually determines if Ufer grounds are required in any particular area.

A disadvantage of Ufer grounds is that the moisture in the concrete can flash into steam during a lightning strike or similar high energy fault condition. This can crack the surrounding concrete and damage the building foundation._

This last one could be a pretty hard Code decision in those areas that have sandy soil and frequent lightning strikes. 
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=isokeraunic+map+usa&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
and illustration 5 of
http://soilandhealth.org/wp-content...43albpap/pH.balanced nutrition/pH.bal.nut.htm


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

If the Ufer was not inspected and signed off prior to cover (concrete pour), then for all practicle purposes it does not exist and can't be utilized.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Anti-wingnut said:


> If the Ufer was not inspected.


Can you narrow down these hits?
http://www.google.com/search?q="ufe....1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..17.5.329.LRppg0hnKcE


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

What's your point?


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Anti-wingnut said:


> What's your point?


As long as inspection is being brought up:
Who inspects Ufer grounds? How exactly is it done? What are the pass/fail limits?

How Code decisions are made doesn't seem to be widely available. This inspection info might be also be "made" of unobtainium.

If you believe
http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0471908088.html
almost no one makes decisions that meet even basic criteria. Not judges and certainly not politicians. :sad:


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

GettingBy said:


> As long as inspection is being brought up:
> Who inspects Ufer grounds? How exactly is it done? What are the pass/fail limits?
> 
> How Code decisions are made doesn't seem to be widely available. This inspection info might be also be "made" of unobtainium.
> ...


Ufer grounds are part of the electrical system, and should be inspected by the electrical inspector. 

That is how it is codified in my area of several million people. Furthermore, in most areas where I live, they are so serious about Ufer's, and so sick and tired of these problems like the OP brought up, that Ufer systems require a pre-con so everybody is on the same page.

The links you supplied seem pointless. A bunch of talk by poor GC's and electrical contractors about what to do after the fact. Chipping out a rebar stub after the pour as your Ufer connection does nothing, because nobody knows that the rebar is twenty feet long, much less twenty inches long.

Your link to the book is completely specious.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Out here Ufer ground is inspected when you call for footing inspection prior to pour.

Not exactly rocket science.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> Not in Illinois or Indiana (at least the AHJ's I work in).
> 
> Tom


Still, a veteran of the trade should be smart enough to know new codes are enacted, and should take it upon himself to study and learn said new codes.



GettingBy said:


> As long as inspection is being brought up:
> Who inspects Ufer grounds? How exactly is it done? What are the pass/fail limits?......


'Round my neck of the woods, it's part of the pre-pour inspection of the footings. If a building inspector cannot figure it out, then there's a serious problem.


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