# Need some advice on this brick sagging problem



## Rustler (Mar 20, 2014)

I do HVAC and know next to nothing about foundations, footings, and masonry. But I'm looking at this house to buy and found this problem after making an offer on it. Need to know if it's worth pursuing or not.

They laid the brick veneer on top of the patio on the back porch, and the patio has sunk about 1/2". In fact that left post isn't even touching the patio. That tells me the house is structurally sound and it's just the patio, I think.

There is a gap below the bricks around most of this patio and there aren't any cracks. But in the weak areas, between the windows and doors, it is cracked and the bricks have fallen down. Notice the gap between the door sill and the bottom of the windows. 

I also dug around the rest of the brick and found that the brick is laying on concrete. Seems like they should be sitting on those narrow footing blocks, no?

There is also evidence of cracking in front of the house around some windows. They've covered it up with new mortar but it was fairly easy to spot since it was much cleaner than the rest.

What I'm hoping is that all of the bricks were properly laid everywhere but this patio, and I can just cut them out and put up some cedar in this area.

Thanks in advance for your help!!


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## Rustler (Mar 20, 2014)

More pictures..


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

IMHO,there is slightly more to be concerned about besides the patio area. The home is way off grade,set to low on the lot. Reason I say this,the code requires 4 " of foundation to be exposed BEFORE the masonry starts,not several courses buried below grade. Where are your weep vents at base of wall ?


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## Rustler (Mar 20, 2014)

fjn said:


> IMHO,there is slightly more to be concerned about besides the patio area. The home is way off grade,set to low on the lot. Reason I say this,the code requires 4 " of foundation to be exposed BEFORE the masonry starts,not several courses buried below grade. Where are your weep vents at base of wall ?


I don't recall seeing any but I also wasn't looking for them.

Here's another picture that should show them, but I'm not seeing any. You?


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

No ,I do not,the buried brick is a red flag in my book. The building is way off grade as I mentioned before. That is a problem that is extremely difficult and costly to correct.


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## Rustler (Mar 20, 2014)

What's the consequence of not fixing it? Moisture and mold?


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

Looking at how plumb those posts are, I'm thinking this house is a 'project'.......there are an awful lot of red flags there.......this is _not_ an inexpensive fix......at least to do things right.....

This is a tough one.......I would have an engineer out to have a look....


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## Rustler (Mar 20, 2014)

Rockmonster said:


> Looking at how plumb those posts are, I'm thinking this house is a 'project'.......there are an awful lot of red flags there.......this is _not_ an inexpensive fix......at least to do things right.....
> 
> This is a tough one.......I would have an engineer out to have a look....


Yeah the left post is not touching the patio since it sunk. But the roof is holding up and not falling with the patio, so that's good right?

Now that I'm learning about the grade problem, it might not be worth pursuing.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Rustler said:


> What's the consequence of not fixing it? Moisture and mold?





Moisture and mold is a very distinct possibility along with the eventual spalling of the brick.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Rustler said:


> Now that I'm learning about the grade problem, it might not be worth pursuing.




You got it !:thumbsup: You read my mind.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

Rustler said:


> What's the consequence of not fixing it? Moisture and mold?


Yes and yes. If you're not seeing weepers, you have to worry about a whole host of things......is there flashing? Is there housewrap or felt? 

Once you start seeing one thing done incorrectly or not done at all, especially things that are common building practice, you've got to take a step back.....brickwork built off of the _patio_?!? 

I don't know.....this is one to avoid, my opinion only.....


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

Rustler said:


> Yeah the left post is not touching the patio since it sunk. But the roof is holding up and not falling with the patio,* so that's good right?*
> 
> Now that I'm learning about the grade problem, it might not be worth pursuing.


I love an optimist! "So, outside of that, how did you like the play Mrs. Lincoln?"


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## Rustler (Mar 20, 2014)

Rockmonster said:


> I love an optimist! "So, outside of that, how did you like the play Mrs. Lincoln?"


:laughing:

Really like this house. But I guess it's time to walk away.

Thanks guys.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

If you really like the house, see what you can do.....I'm concerned that the brickwork almost looks like an afterthought.......a tiny footing around the perimeter? Brickwork off the patio? There's some failure there, is there sound brickwork off of good support around the rest of the house?

You could open up some brickwork down low to see how and if it's flashed......maybe mud wasps clogged up the weepers, and we can't see that....it happens....it's not terribly uncommon to have brickwork seen down to grade, it often gets slushed below the flashing, and the airspace begins at the flashing/weeper level......

This may be a screaming deal for you, especially if you can get it knocked down because of these issues.....the owner may just want to unload a headache......

My 2 ¢


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## Rustler (Mar 20, 2014)

Rockmonster said:


> If you really like the house, see what you can do.....I'm concerned that the brickwork almost looks like an afterthought.......a tiny footing around the perimeter? Brickwork off the patio? There's some failure there, is there sound brickwork off of good support around the rest of the house?
> 
> You could open up some brickwork down low to see how and if it's flashed......maybe mud wasps clogged up the weepers, and we can't see that....it happens....it's not terribly uncommon to have brickwork seen down to grade, it often gets slushed below the flashing, and the airspace begins at the flashing/weeper level......
> 
> ...


That tiny footing was found on the other 3 sides of the house. I bet they changed to brick after the slab was poured. 

It was listed at 230k. Dropped to 215k after 30 days on the market. I offered 185k and they countered at 204k. After seeing the brick issue I countered back at 175k and haven't heard anything since. That was 2 days ago.

It's also owned by Freddie Mac


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

I respect Rockmonster's point of view however,I'M not as optimistic as he is. I would not walk away from this "deal" ..........I would run.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

I was just playing devil's advocate......I don't know where Rustler lives, but judging from the 1/3 bond, probably in what, OK, MO, AR, TN, TX?

In these areas, brickwork is fairly inexpensive.....and often fairly means 'really'.......

The brick is pretty ugly, even if it was done nicely, agreed? 

Let's say you peel them all off, and lay up nice brick. Say 8' by what, 160'? 180 even...... around 1400sf. Let's say 15/sf for brickwork (I could be way off, sure) That's 21k. Even if you say 14k for demo/disposal and new footings, we're at 35k. Add extras like caulking, carpentry, painting, another 5k. 40k.....OK, you still have to ixnay the patio, but that's likely gonna go anyway.......I think 40 gives you a nice buffer......

So you offer 155, and tell them you're doing them a favor (you would be) 

_Somebody's_ gonna buy it......what's the address? I wanna check it out on Zillow..........


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## Rustler (Mar 20, 2014)

Well they rejected my offer of 175k, which would have been 40k under their original asking price of 215k

Or 55k under their original asking price of 230k

They countered at 204k

It's only been on the market for 40 days. But they tried to sell it a year ago for 200k and didn't get an offer. They came in and put in new appliances, new roof, new paint and new carpet and raised it up to 230k.


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## Rustler (Mar 20, 2014)

edited


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

Rustler said:


> Well they rejected my offer of 175k, which would have been 40k under their original asking price of 215k
> 
> Or 55k under their original asking price of 230k
> 
> ...


In that area of homes, with the upgrades, that may look like a steal in 15 years.......I'd talk to a good mason contractor, and ask some $$s

They'll probably still budge, just maybe not another 29k.......


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Burn the pictures and run away.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Might be a great place to grow mushrooms.


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## Nick520 (May 2, 2013)

I wouldn't want to buy someone else's headaches. A touch up or a little repair ok but not
Opening up that can of worms you got there. If
The brick was designed so poorly I could only imagine the other problems around the housr


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> Might be a great place to grow mushrooms.






How true that statement could be. I have seen similar situations as this where there were mushrooms literally the size of tennis balls growing out of the base moldings !


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I wouldnt buy that house because of the idiotic zipper bond and the lsd the masons were on that day when they put a 1 1/2" piece next to the window. 

Those sill plates or whatever they use down there when there is a slab are probably pretty moist.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

JBM said:


> I wouldnt buy that house because of the idiotic zipper bond and the lsd the masons were on that day when they put a 1 1/2" piece next to the window.
> 
> Those sill plates or whatever they use down there when there is a slab are probably pretty moist.


You've gotta get out more....that bond is common in parts of the country.....I knew it was around there somewhere.......

Anything can be fixed........

Please, even at 204? If you want 2.5 acres here you are STARTING at around 2mil......_without_ a house! Look at that area......that's a nice spot........christ, I've dropped 204 in_ storage_ the last 12 years.......


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

JBM said:


> I wouldnt buy that house because of the idiotic zipper bond


What would you do to change that bond, put a cut in every other course? Like rockmonster said it is the industry standard in this area, most of the brick are L 9.25-9.5" x W 2 5/8" x D 2 5/8". In the high production environment of this area it's just not profitable. You'd be amazed at how many people around here can't keep it straight though.



fjn said:


> IMHO,there is slightly more to be concerned about besides the patio area. The home is way off grade,set to low on the lot. Reason I say this,the code requires 4 " of foundation to be exposed BEFORE the masonry starts,not several courses buried below grade. Where are your weep vents at base of wall ?


Code? We lay brick below grade exclusively, never use any weep holes at all. We are OTOH usually 18" below floor height.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Kniggit said:


> What would you do to change that bond, put a cut in every other course? Like rockmonster said it is the industry standard in this area, most of the brick are L 9.25-9.5" x W 2 5/8" x D 2 5/8". In the high production environment of this area it's just not profitable. You'd be amazed at how many people around here can't keep it straight though.


I would use a brick where 2 ends equals a full. 

Ive never seen that bond up here, on a house, its hideous as far as my opinion goes. 2" cuts next to a window is priceless. It looks ok with jumbos on a Walgreen's but not on a house jesus. 

Damn Yankees and all :whistling


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Kniggit;1982773
Code? We lay brick below grade exclusively said:


> Around here,leaving weep vents / holes out is kind of like a doctor leaving his tools in you after a surgery...........a good way to possibly get sued . Not to mention a fist full of red tags from the inspector.


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

JBM said:


> I would use a brick where 2 ends equals a full.
> 
> Ive never seen that bond up here, on a house, its hideous as far as my opinion goes. 2" cuts next to a window is priceless. It looks ok with jumbos on a Walgreen's but not on a house jesus.
> 
> Damn Yankees and all :whistling


We have to do the small cuts sometimes also...we often have piers between a couple of window's that will be appx 6.5" wide, two bats will get you to about 5 7/8" so you either have a huge stacked joint or you have a zipper joint, both which look like crap. I will usually make them alternating 1 5/8" & 4.5".

95% of the brick that I have laid in the last thirty years have been laid with this bond. I come here to learn, to see how others do things in different parts of the world and I know that my work isn't perfect but I, at the same time, try to enlighten others on how it is done in this part of the country in the residential market.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

fjn said:


> Around here,leaving weep vents / holes out is kind of like a doctor leaving his tools in you after a surgery...........a good way to possibly get sued . Not to mention a fist full of red tags from the inspector.


If the brick is laid below grade without weeps it's fine so long as there is no air space, the void is slushed. It's like prettying up the foundation is all. IF the brick continues up past grade then at or below wherever the wood begins, (If it's a wood framed house), BUT above grade (FJN's code says 4", mine says 7 7/8"), flashing is supposed to be installed , along with weeps and the air space can begin.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Kniggit said:


> We have to do the small cuts sometimes also...we often have piers between a couple of window's that will be appx 6.5" wide, two bats will get you to about 5 7/8" so you either have a huge stacked joint or you have a zipper joint, both which look like crap. I will usually make them alternating 1 5/8" & 4.5".
> 
> 95% of the brick that I have laid in the last thirty years have been laid with this bond. I come here to learn, to see how others do things in different parts of the world and I know that my work isn't perfect but I, at the same time, try to enlighten others on how it is done in this part of the country in the residential market.


It's different all over. I've been working in a subdivision all winter and the way I lay out is different from the way the main contractor lays out. I was taught to never put a brick in beside an opening that is smaller than a head, in the case of MAX bricks that's 3.5" (10" x 3 1/16" x 3.5"). The other guys keep on bond no matter what, they put 1.5" pieces against an opening no problem.


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

I remember seeing that as a Raking Stretcher bond before.....never actually used it though......when I was in AZ the common bond was used in those few (mostly municipal) buildings that _used_ brick....

On another note, on a site with plenty of building inspectors, I was reading a thread where one stated the airspace behind the brick could be _grouted_, which negated the need for weepholes......inspectornews, or inspectorjournal, something like that......

It started because a couple had their inspector tell them they had neither airspace or weepers......I thought it was pretty odd, but I had never heard of that before.......anyone else?

Inspectionnews.net <actual site


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

dom-mas said:


> It's different all over. I've been working in a subdivision all winter and the way I lay out is different from the way the main contractor lays out. I was taught to never put a brick in beside an opening that is smaller than a head, in the case of MAX bricks that's 3.5" (10" x 3 1/16" x 3.5"). The other guys keep on bond no matter what, they put 1.5" pieces against an opening no problem.


Yeah, I've done the 1.5".....maybe even a little less....they disappear.

It's usually when you HAVE to hit openings, and you have very little field to fudge........


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Rockmonster said:


> On another note, on a site with plenty of building inspectors, I was reading a thread where one stated the airspace behind the brick could be _grouted_, which negated the need for weepholes......inspectornews, or inspectorjournal, something like that......
> 
> It started because a couple had their inspector tell them they had neither airspace or weepers......I thought it was pretty odd, but I had never heard of that before.......anyone else?
> 
> Inspectionnews.net <actual site


My code says it is ONLY acceptable when masonry is the super structure, a wood framed house MUST have an airspace and weeps


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

"I was taught to never put a brick in beside an opening that is smaller than a head, in the case of MAX bricks that's 3.5" (10" x 3 1/16" x 3.5"). The other guys keep on bond no matter what, they put 1.5" pieces against an opening no problem. "

You were taught correctly. If it will take a potato chip (less than 1/4 of a full unit), then several brick should be cut instead.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

A good portion of the bonding issues discussed in this thread could be eliminated if the Architect / designer involved was to give thought to this subject at the design stage.


When solid masonry buildings started to give way to the brick wallpaper (veneers) openings started getting placed on elevations with little but rudimentary thought to bond and unit size. This also was carried over to window unit sizing.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I was working on a house and a window and door were fairly close together but at different heights and I couldn't get the brick to bond out with both...only one or the other. The archi happened to stop by to view the progress so i asked her about her preference, she said "yeah no one thinks about brick when deciding on heights, they really should" 

WHAT isn't that YOUR job!!! Who are "they" unless it's you? The worst part was that everything was running bond, so no real possibilty for a boot cut and some soldiers or anything. I don't een remember what i did, but i didn't like it

One problem is that with all the different sizes of bricks today, and with the manufactured stone, when the drawings are done the only note is that there is "masonry cladding" and the wall assembly, but the size of brick of choice of stone may be made a year after the drawings are done


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

fjn said:


> When solid masonry buildings started to give way to the brick wallpaper (veneers) openings started getting placed on elevations with little but rudimentary thought to bond and unit size. This also was carried over to window unit sizing.


Also you can often move the frames slightly on masonry buildings which helps bond it. Does also help that our bricks are normally the standard size.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> Also you can often move the frames slightly on masonry buildings which helps bond it.






You bet, that sure does provide some leeway !


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