# Pay for travel time?



## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I realize that the answer to this question might vary from state to state, but here goes anyhow. 

If an employee is required to:

arrive at the shop to pick up the company truck and recieve the first few calls for the day
work his 8 hours
return to the shop, park the truck, and go home
When does the time keeping for calculation of hours worked in a day begin and end?


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

According to the IRS I believe you have to pay from when they leave till they get back if in co. vechicle.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2006)

If he or she is answering YOUR phone and driving YOUR company truck, than he or she is on on the clock.

Ben.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

It's just like any other 9-5'er. The employee does not get compensated for drive time to and from the job/homebase.

His hours start when he walks in the door for assignment and end when he drops off the truck to go home.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Okay, to modify that...

If an employee is permitted, but not required, to drive the same company truck to eat lunch at a restaruant or fast food joint, when does the time subtraction for the lunch period begin...


when the employee leaves the job to drive to lunch?
when the employee arrives at the lunch spot?
and, when does it end...


when the employee leaves the lunch spot?
when the employee arrives back at the job?


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

Whats this all leading to?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

jmic said:


> Whats this all leading to?


Well, if you follow this out to the end, you'll be in Keyokuk, Iowa. I guess I don't know what you're asking. I'm just trying to figure some stuff out, since these questions are in the front of my mind due to another thread.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Long as i've been around, you get paid when you are at the start place, shop/jobsite, and it stops when you leave. You get your federally mandated 2 15 minute breaks and your 30 minute lunch... where you GO for lunch doesn't matter, better be back in 30 minutes.

Now, service companies are a little different, meaning there is alot more driving time, etc... had one guy tell me I was "halftime" while driving, which is illegal, etc.


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## dantheman (May 31, 2006)

I work for a remodeling company, and we usually have a bunch of jobs going at any given time. We're pretty much all specialists in our various fields (carpenters, painters, annoying guys that stand around giving advice without doing any work, etc.), so we often bounce from job to job on any given day. My boss pays us for drive time during the day, in our personal trucks, except to lunch and back. Mornings start at the office, if we go there, or at the job site, if we go straight there instead. Ending pay, if we don't go back to the office to unload trash or materials, is a bit trickier; the office is northwest of Austin, most of the work is in Austin lately, and most of the employees live out in the boondocks, except me (I'm the only one who lives in town). Ending time when not going back to the office is pretty much a case-by-case basis, because these are our personal vehicles, rather than company vehicles, and we aren't paid mileage. My boss is rather lenient on this one for the hourly guys, because our trucks, hauling his materials and workers to his jobs, can burn an hour's pay worth of gas in an hour's driving, depending on traffic.

Just an employee's perspective, for what it's worth here - the way some of you guys talk about your employees, that might not be much, but it's honest.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

mdshunk said:


> when the employee leaves the job to drive to lunch?


Off the clock



mdshunk said:


> when the employee arrives back at the job?


Back on the clock


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## Debookkeeper (Jul 23, 2006)

Time starts when they arrive to the shop to pick up the company truck, (7:00am) and they are paid until they arrive back (which should be 3:30pm) to drop it back off. Lunch is from the time they leave the jobsite, and would have to return in 1/2 hour. I only have seen certain service companies set up to be portal to portal pay.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Debookkeeper said:


> I only have seen certain service companies set up to be portal to portal pay.


I'm not really sure what 'portal to portal pay' means. Could you explain that, briefly?


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## Debookkeeper (Jul 23, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> I'm not really sure what 'portal to portal pay' means. Could you explain that, briefly?


From the time you leave to the time you get back. Like moving companies charge by the hour. The clock starts from the time they leave their shop, until the time they get back to their shop. I worked for an HVAC guy years ago, and he charged portal to portal on his service calls when he was called out on Sundays and after 7pm at night. Of course, this was told upfront to the customer.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Debookkeeper said:


> From the time you leave to the time you get back. Like moving companies charge by the hour. The clock starts from the time they leave their shop, until the time they get back to their shop. I worked for an HVAC guy years ago, and he charged portal to portal on his service calls when he was called out on Sundays and after 7pm at night. Of course, this was told upfront to the customer.



Like a sevice company, 2 hours min charged, time starts when the dude leaves the shop until he gets back. It takes four to do the job, plus 2 to travel, customer gets billed T&M for 6.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Brushslingers said:


> Like a sevice company, 2 hours min charged, time starts when the dude leaves the shop until he gets back. It takes four to do the job, plus 2 to travel, customer gets billed T&M for 6.


Yeah, that has more to do with billing out to the customer and less to do with time keeping for employee payroll. Payroll is what I was more interested in. I already know that it's possible, and even sometimes normal, to bill out 10 or 12 man hours in an 8 hour man day for a service company. The employee still gets paid for 8.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The IRS rules are pretty simple and clear, while company policy is open inside those guidelines:

From the employees home to either the jobsite, or the office from which they are dispatched, are personal miles. Any miles driven from the jobsite to and from lunch are personal miles. Any miles driven from the jobsite to the employees home or from the office to the employees home are personal miles.


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## B-MAN (Aug 1, 2006)

The clock starts when my guys when they arrive at the shop to pick up the vehicles, they are permitted to use the company vehicle for lunch but they only have a 30 minute lunch. The clock stops when they leave the job, they are not paid for the drive time back to the shop. This is how it was for me working for other employers and I think it is fair.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

An example of operating within those guidelines with exceptional circumstances would be:

The jobsite is 50 miles from the employees home, but the employer does not need the employee to go to the office first. The employer could (but doesn't have to) pay the employee for the drive time to the jobsite from his home, but would not be able to deduct those miles as an expense. He could ameliorate this by having the employee drive to the office, then go to the job, in which case all miles from the office to the jobsite would be expensable.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> The IRS rules are pretty simple and clear...


I was unaware that the IRS got into the actual "hours worked" part of payroll record keeping. I (perhaps mistakenly) thought that they only got into tax issues with regard to payroll. Do you have the link where I could read a little more on this?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The IRS concern is not with hours, it is with mileage. If you pay travel time per hour, instead of per mile, the IRS doesn't care, but you can not then turn around and use that mileage (burned while you pay them by the hour) as a business deduction.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

I just pay one way (start or finish) and gas when it's long distance... for instance if it's an hour drive and they get there at 7am, they leave at 2:30 and get 8, plus if they bring a reciept... gas is fronted. Long as I have a receipt the gas is able to be written off, and people are happy if they get off 1 hour early even if its just a drive.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

MD, The Department of Labor, Wage and Hour Division is the one that sets and enforces the rules you're asking about. Check here for some of the answers you're seeking.


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## Debookkeeper (Jul 23, 2006)

Tscarborough said:


> The IRS concern is not with hours, it is with mileage. If you pay travel time per hour, instead of per mile, the IRS doesn't care, but you can not then turn around and use that mileage (burned while you pay them by the hour) as a business deduction.


I am not positive, and I can look into it further - but it doesn't sound entirely right. You have a choice of deducting either mileage or actual expenses. Actual would include, repairs, fuel, depreciation, registration, insurance, etc. MD - If you need an accurate answer for sure let me know. I can call my CPA friend.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Double-A said:


> MD, The Department of Labor, Wage and Hour Division is the one that sets and enforces the rules you're asking about. Check here for some of the answers you're seeking.


Yeah, that's the kinda stuff I'm looking for. Thanks a million. I think I'm about to have an issue that I'm too proud to discuss openly.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Debookeeper, Check with your CPA, but I think you will find that that applies only to how you actually book miles claimed. There are 2 things at play here:

How you remiburse your employees.

How you claim the expense.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> Yeah, that's the kinda stuff I'm looking for. Thanks a million. I think I'm about to have an issue that I'm too proud to discuss openly.


 
Good luck with it and remember. Most folks take their legal advice from friends, not lawyers. Its really the only thing they're good for, legal advice.

Teet'r, you can pay an employee how you like and the IRS cares not one wit, as long as it not a matter of them being called something other than an employee.

The matter of deducting the cost of the vehicle on taxes and using the $0.44 / mile deduction is not in any way shape or form related to who puts those miles on that vehicle. Hope that clears it up, or perhaps I misunderstood your statement.


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## Debookkeeper (Jul 23, 2006)

Tscarborough said:


> Debookeeper, Check with your CPA, but I think you will find that that applies only to how you actually book miles claimed. There are 2 things at play here:
> 
> How you remiburse your employees.
> 
> How you claim the expense.





> You have a choice of deducting either mileage or actual expenses. Actual would include, repairs, fuel, depreciation, registration, insurance, etc.


Sorry - I didn't follow you Tscar on that one. I understand what you are saying when you say you think if you pay an employee for travel time, you can't deduct mileage from the vehicle. The reason why it doesn't make sense to me, is listed in my quote above. You have the choice on your tax return to take mileage or an actual vehicle expense. So if you were paying your employee for travel time, you would just use the "Actual" cost on your tax return, therefore still getting a deduction. I am not being sarcastic - I am trying to follow.


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## maverick17 (Sep 15, 2006)

Tscarborough said:


> The IRS concern is not with hours, it is with mileage. If you pay travel time per hour, instead of per mile, the IRS doesn't care, but you can not then turn around and use that mileage (burned while you pay them by the hour) as a business deduction.


 
While it is correct you cannot deduct miles if you pay by the mile (if the employee is driving those miles in his own vehicle), you can still deduct that money as an employee expense. The employee would have to pay FICA, Medicare, Federal, State, Local, and any other tax on the money he was "reinbursed" for his driving. It would count the same as wages. The employee can then deduct the miles on his personal schedule A as unreinbursed business expense, which is subject to a 2% floor of his AGI (adjusted gross income) (last line of the front page of the 1040 or first line on the top of the second page). 

He would have to itemize already or drive a s-ton of miles. The employee could also deduct any tools, and equipment to the extent they are used to carry on his work. (meaning if he uses his drill 80% of the time at work then he could deduct 80% of the cost of the drill)(clothing and even uniforms and shoes are looked at with a high powered microscope, so I am told)

Im no accountant, but I do believe thats what mine says.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

You can do it either way, just not both.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

No, Maverick, if you pay him by the mile, he can not claim it as an unreimbursed expense, nor can he claim the actual mileage as an unreimbursed expense if you pay him by the hour for the travel time, although he could probably get away with it.


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## ch0mpie (Nov 30, 2005)

With my job as an inspector I get reimbursed for expenses including mileage. If I travel directly to the job site then home I would be reimbursed for the mileage to and from the jobsite minus the mileage from my home to the office. For example, I live 30 miles from the office. I was doing inspections in new haven, ct which is about 65 miles form nyc. I got reimbursed for 70 miles each day I worked there. Taxes are not taken from my reimbursment check which is seperate from my paycheck.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Double-A said:


> Good luck with it and remember. Most folks take their legal advice from friends, not lawyers. Its really the only thing they're good for, legal advice..


Yeah, thanks...









I just needed a starting place. That's all. When you're paying someone for their time (like an accountant or attorney) it's good to have done a little research ahead of time in order to maximize the visit and have many questions prepared ahead of time.


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> Yeah, thanks...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sounds like a series of unpleasant events leading up to more unpleasantness ...
bummer ...
my sympathies


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## rservices (Aug 3, 2005)

My situation may be a litle different. when I have someone work with me I ussally pick them up, They are informed a head of time that I will deduct 1 hour travel from the total day (minus 1/2 lunch). The way I look at it is they would have had to drive anywhere to work. and if my job takes us 2 hours travel time I eat it. Now should I get a job closer I would only deduct the travel time to the job. I usally buy lunch. 
Generaly I work solo, so if I need an extra set of hands I do my best to make it as appealing as posible.


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## maverick17 (Sep 15, 2006)

Tscarborough said:


> No, Maverick, if you pay him by the mile, he can not claim it as an unreimbursed expense, nor can he claim the actual mileage as an unreimbursed expense if you pay him by the hour for the travel time, although he could probably get away with it.


Exactly. Because you would not be technically paying for mileage, you are compensating an employee for services, he could deduct it. The only way to get caught is a disgruntled employee, and then it doesnt affect you, just the employee, and if the employee keeps a log like he is required by the IRS it would become he said she said.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> I realize that the answer to this question might vary from state to state, but here goes anyhow.
> 
> If an employee is required to:
> 
> ...


This is a question I was going to ask too. Sometimes we'll do a job that is 30 miles away, and with traffic around here, it is just such a waste of money if we're paying the guys from the time they get to the shop, say at 8:00 to the time they get to the job site, which could be an hour later at 9:00. If we've got 4 guys going that could be almost $80.00. Then if they leave an hour early to get back to the shop by quitting time, then that's another $80.00, and means they've only worked at the jobsite 6 hours! :sad:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Melissa said:


> ...if we're paying the guys from the time they get to the shop, say at 8:00 to the time they get to the job site, which could be an hour later at 9:00. If we've got 4 guys going that could be almost $80.00. Then if they leave an hour early to get back to the shop by quitting time, then that's another $80.00, and means they've only worked at the jobsite 6 hours! :sad:


Yes, it gets more expensive to do work the further from home base you go. Less productive hours per man day is the biggest expense when doing work far from the shop. You just gotta know this ahead of time when you're bidding on such work. I think that's why bigger contractors, that normally work far and wide, require that their men start at the jobsite. Some give a little per diem for real far jobs just to keep the men happy.


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