# Oak stair refinishing job



## Humble Abode (Mar 19, 2005)

I am bidding a stair (treads=stain / risers=paint) refinishing job. I have experience refinishing hardwood floors but never stairs. My question is this: should I use an edge sander to sand the treads? Or is there some other tool that is more commonly used or better suited to this job?


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

A palm sander would probably work nice.


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## Humble Abode (Mar 19, 2005)

ProWallGuy said:


> A palm sander would probably work nice.


I forgot to mention it's been stained and the customer wants a natural finish.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Are you looking for the best tool just to take the finish off down to the wood or something in regard to specfically doing stairs?

I have always found a random orbital sander is 2nd only to a belt sander in speed of removing material. I also own one of those little weird sander machines that you can do triangles and conform to molding profiles and such. It sucks to use because it isn't very powerful, but it gets into corners. They also make a sander called a mouse that the base is triangular shaped for getting into corners.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

I agree with Mike, - - you'll need a detail sander (PC has one) or a Mouse (Black and Decker, I think) to really hit the corners good, and an edge sander or a random orbit sander for the bulk of the work.

It's gonna be a tough job to guarantee a uniform finish on, - - the existing stain has soaked deeper into the porous areas then the dense.


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## Marco (Mar 9, 2005)

Nobody knows how to use a scraper anymore??? sheesh. Edger and a sharp scraper will whip those out faster than all the gadgets, although I'm going to buy a random orbital just to try. I have resorted to a belt sander on the risers once in awhile. Still have to scrape and handsand anyway....


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Scraper?? Why go so high-tech?? Real men have rough stones!! :cheesygri


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## Humble Abode (Mar 19, 2005)

So no one reccomends one of these?


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Yes, I did, - - I've always called it an edge-sander, - - maybe you call it something else??


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## Humble Abode (Mar 19, 2005)

Tom R said:


> Yes, I did, - - I've always called it an edge-sander, - - maybe you call it something else??


Nope thats what I call it too... sorry I must have missed that.


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## justin savage (Apr 4, 2005)

*sanding stairs*

start with buying / or building a stair tread tool.looks like a little stool for the edger wheels to ride on while you sand them it adjusts up and down for different height treads.www.floorstyle.com Then hand scrape, then alittle palm sanding/ hand sanding. justin savage


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Those of us that work on yachts, fine homes and furniture rely on scrapers. It can be faster than sanders in many applications and don't forget the dust cleanup.


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## Humble Abode (Mar 19, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> Those of us that work on yachts, fine homes and furniture rely on scrapers. It can be faster than sanders in many applications and don't forget the dust cleanup.


OK I don't understand. What kind of scraper are you talking about? Does anyone have a picture of one of these scrapers? Will it take a 16th to an 8th inch off the floor? Is this a block plane?

When I think scraper, I think "paint scraper" and i sure as hell wouldn't want to tackle a tread with a putty knife.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Scrapers are considered an old school or old world crastman tool, mostly used for final finishing of fine furniture, but certainly a pretty scarce tool in production furniture making. There are plenty of hobby craftsman using them to build one off pieces of furniture for their own pleasure.

I never heard of anybody using a scraper to remove so much material such as trying to refinish stairs. My experience with them is as a final finishing tool. In the right hands they deliver an unbelievably smooth and flat finish. As for using them to remove the material that you would need to move in order to refinish stairs??? Maybe somebody knows more about this than I do, but I can't see a scraper keeping up with a random orbital.


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## Humble Abode (Mar 19, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> In the right hands


Seems like the operative words there... mine are not the right hands, and whats more I may cut one of them off with that thing!


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I prefer a 1" Red Devil, readily available at box stores. Get a diamond sharpener to buff the edge as it will roll in time. It's work, but not hard.
Everybody else filled you in on the furniture aspect. 
A scraped finish on fine furniture (a little different from what you are doing) is AKA a French finish, it dates back a few hundred years.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Teetorbilt said:


> A scraped finish on fine furniture (a little different from what you are doing) is AKA a French finish, it dates back a few hundred years.


I've never heard of a scraper creating a type of finish on furniture, only scrapers being preferred by fine, fine, finishers because of their ability to create near perfection in regard to smooth and flat final surfaces before finishing. 

Are you confusing a French Finish with a French Polish based on using Shellac?


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## Marco (Mar 9, 2005)

Anybody who doesn't know the relationship a floorguy has with his scraper shouldn't be offering advise on floor refinishing. "Old school", it is not! It is one of the most basic, necessary and integal tools a floorman owns. One of the first handtools he will acquire in his career. It is the only efficient way to clean up square corners from using round sanders and will remove a lot of wood very quickly if sharpened correctly. The little triangle sander is a toy(I have one) and is not worth the time-ESPECIALLY for paint. In the edger photo above, notice the paint behind the radiator pipe, that will be scraped, for example.
There are six corners to be done on every tread/riser. A belt sander can work for the riser if strength is an issue, but there will still be significant scraper work around the entire perimeter. The tread is commonly done with the edger, either with or without a stair helper as described earlier. I have one, sometimes I use it, sometimes not. There will still be two corners to scrape and the entire tread should be scraped to eliminate the edger scratches. I use the it for the bullnose and under as well. There is no substitute.
Treads and risers , especially painted risers(lead?), are not for the faint of heart. They require plenty of muscle and sweat. There are no efficient shortcuts.

The best blade in my experience is the 1" Red Devil Teetor mentioned. They sharpen nicely and are found in most hardware stoores. Sharpening is key to successful scraping, it took me a full year before I could get a good edge. Cross-strokes across length of the blade with a bastard mill file. Once sharp, it may need to be touched up every few strokes or every other corner, depending on the surface coating. It is important to keep the edge flat, as the tendancy is to round the blade. This will leave scallops not seen until the final coat. 
I prefer a longer handle than those sold with the blades, much, much better leverage, but a small handle about 4" is sold and is a good addition for tight areas. Below is a photo of one I made from a hammer handle many years ago for about $4. It is my friend, I could carve the world with it.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

After reading your post Marco I would have to try to talk the customer into painting the stairs or tear them out and replace them with an elevator!


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Escalators are nice 'til the basement gets full of steps!! :cheesygri


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Marco may have gone a little over the top but he knows of what he speaks. I can put my hand on one of those scrapers just about anywhere, sharpening and burnishing them is truly an art. I'll put one up against sandpaper anyday and you'll eat my 'no dust'.
They also cut the surface of the wood, not scratch it like sandpaper. Ask any fine woodworker.


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## Humble Abode (Mar 19, 2005)

I wish I knew a fine woodworker who could teach me how to use one. I would hate to practice on a customers stairs. I think I might go get a chair at a rummage sale or a peice of pine and try one out.


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## Donedat (Aug 13, 2005)

Yep, if you've ever seen a floorman's bicepts and forarms, you now know where he gets them from. You may think it is from swinging the 4 pounder all day long. That's only part of it. Scraping and hand sanding are also part of the trio. :Thumbs:


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## adamsb (Aug 25, 2005)

Edger and scraper is your quickest way to refinish old steps. I would like to see someone sand an old stair case down with a mouse, especially if it has wax. Anyway make sure you have a new file on hand, and talk the customer into painting the risers if possible....Actually I always go over the step with a palm sander and hand sand the steps for my last step. If there are spindles of some sort and it is getting stain I use the mouse to make everything finished with the same grit.


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## Donedat (Aug 13, 2005)

If the treads are thick with gooey wax or old paint or even both, you can use a heat gun along with a sharp puddy knife to get the slop off. Then proceed to sanding with the edger, scraping the corners with the razor sharp paint scraper and then hand sand everything to a uniform sheen. Usually, you need only to handsand up to 100 or 120. That is sufficient cause you want the color to match the floor. If you sand too fine or too course it will effect the color in contrast to the floor...sometimes drastic contrast.


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## Grainywood (Aug 8, 2005)

Marco said:


> Nobody knows how to use a scraper anymore??? sheesh. Edger and a sharp scraper will whip those out faster than all the gadgets, although I'm going to buy a random orbital just to try. I have resorted to a belt sander on the risers once in awhile. Still have to scrape and handsand anyway....



Ditto. I refinished stained stairs a few months ago. You can use an edger to do the main area of the tread. Then a scraper to get at the corners and edges. I also use the Bosch Detail/Corner Sander which is nice for getting the areas sanded smooth after the scraper. Fein makes a nice random orbital sander. I got the six inch but I think a smaller sander would be better so you can use it to get at the risers as well. But the Fein is really great for getting edger marks out before staining a floor.


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## adamsb (Aug 25, 2005)

Grainywood said:


> Ditto. I refinished stained stairs a few months ago. You can use an edger to do the main area of the tread. Then a scraper to get at the corners and edges. I also use the Bosch Detail/Corner Sander which is nice for getting the areas sanded smooth after the scraper. Fein makes a nice random orbital sander. I got the six inch but I think a smaller sander would be better so you can use it to get at the risers as well. But the Fein is really great for getting edger marks out before staining a floor.


Right On. Sometimes with a dark stain the little orbital sanders leave "fish eyes", so I like to hand sand them to finish them up.


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## Donedat (Aug 13, 2005)

adams said:


> Right On. Sometimes with a dark stain the little orbital sanders leave "fish eyes", so I like to hand sand them to finish them up.


Good eyes :Thumbs: Lot of guys can't see the difference. I got called in to resand a job some other guy did. He used an orbital palm sander. It's not a big deal if you use an orbital over the entire floor...but in just one spot?...it will stick out like a sore thumb.


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## adamsb (Aug 25, 2005)

Donedat said:


> Good eyes :Thumbs: Lot of guys can't see the difference. I got called in to resand a job some other guy did. He used an orbital palm sander. It's not a big deal if you use an orbital over the entire floor...but in just one spot?...it will stick out like a sore thumb.



I have two stair cases going right now and they are both getting dark stain. Sound like fun, huh?


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## Donedat (Aug 13, 2005)

Sorry, I'm late to post. How'd they turn out?


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## Humble Abode (Mar 19, 2005)

Donedat said:


> Sorry, I'm late to post. How'd they turn out?


We didn't get the job. Not that we got out bid or under bid, the customer wasn't expecting stairs to be so expensive to refinish. I think they put it off for a year or so. We may get it yet, as they are one of our more loyal customers.


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## parquetselvon (Mar 15, 2011)

*Scrapers*

Here in Belgium,
There ia a Flooring company who scrap oak timber flooring without sanding. Well it's 400 to 500 euros m² ( 10 sq. ft). A guy overthere tought me how to sharpened the scraper. I made one with a pièce band saw (blue iron), it works well. I am new in this forum. I am reading old threads and I do not know if I can still respond concerning 2005 threads.


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## parquetselvon (Mar 15, 2011)

*Stair case*

Best way to renovate stair case. Steps and counter steps.

Elan edge sander Laegler ( + - 10kg) 22 pounds.

Metabo grinder with a speed variator

Support for scratch sand paper 125mm diametre

Paper grit for the Elan machine for steps only; grit 36 / 50 / 80 / 

Orbital sander metabo or Festool kapex / grit 80 / 100 

Countersteps must be realized with the grinder ( adjusting the speed)
Face mask (3M)
grit / 36 / 50 / 80 / 100

small orbital sander Festool 80 / 100 

For corner, use a support for scratch paper diametre 50mm with a 60 /80 grits.

As I hate sharpening scrapers, I prefer using the 50mm diameter scratch support, there is only about a + - 25mm triangle left in corners, just use a chisel 30mm width, weel sharpened and just cut the corners. The chisel is easier to sharpened than the scrapers.
For each stairs / 120cm width for my quotes I will forecast a quantity
3 grit 16 sometimes / 3 x36grits / 3 x 50 grits / 3 x 80 / 3x 100 and the same for the counterstep in 125mm diametre.
I use 4 grinder (metabo) after one counterstep, I will use a second one an so on. I hate doing stair case before. Since I put this technics, even my guys tell me that ti's awesome. When I will be used on this forum, I will put some photographs. You can see a staircase by typing parquetselvon in google search. Regards.


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## parquetselvon (Mar 15, 2011)

*stairs cases*

Since I hate renovating staircases. I give prices in a way not to have the job. I got a job for April 2011. I quoted 100 euros per steps + 150 euros per countersteps. quantity 32 steps 31 countersteps. Total job 7850 euros.
I will be doing this job myself. Charging these prices I cannot do the job in 5 days. I will do it at my ease.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

parquetselvon said:


> Best way to renovate stair case. Steps and counter steps.
> 
> Elan edge sander Laegler ( + - 10kg) 22 pounds.
> 
> ...


Where the hell were you 6 years ago :whistling Pretty sure this one is done....might be ready to do again :laughing:


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## nymasterfloors (Jan 28, 2011)

If you really want to do it yourself use an edger and A hand scraper. Scrapers are sold @ wood flooring stores that usually sell poly and what not.I do not recommend if you do not have any experience with doing treads to do it yourself. Sub it out usual cost is $25 per step.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

7850 euros?...wow..thats big money and you got it?

if you dont want the job, why show up for the estimate?

alot of work to go there to NOT get the job...


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## parquetselvon (Mar 15, 2011)

*Staircases*

I do hate doing it, but if the money is there, Whom am I to spit on it !


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

at that rate, i would do this all week..be done in 2-3 days..make myself 16,000 a week..

would be real nice..


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## the rock (Feb 27, 2011)

This scraper youguys are talking about........... are they all cordless ? or do some plug in ? lol


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

chordless and his name is generally pablo....

i wanna move to belgium and do steps for 3900 a set...euros even! dammmmmm nn=)


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## RhodesHardwood (Jun 28, 2010)

We use a combination of a carbide scraper and a palm sander for most stairs. However, if the edger will fit then use it for as much as you can.


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## Hoquester (Jun 14, 2010)

Haven't seen any mentions of this bad boy ...

ww.ussander.com/dse5.htm

I find the whole hand scraping and hand sanding far too much work and too "purist" if you ask me, the bottom line is... does it look good?, do you get paid.

I banged out 14 stairs, stair edger, hand scraped corners, orbital swirl marlks to fine finish and hand sanded noses in less then 2 hours. Stair were perfect !! :thumbsup:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Just a little warning about being cautious when doing this work on newer homes... Some stair manufacturers like to save a little money so they use laminated treads on oak stairs without saying anything to the builder. Oak stairs are usually covered during construction, but if paper or other protective covering rips,etc and a few treads are in much worst shape then others and need more sanding, there is a good possibility the laminated part will get removed especially when using edge sander.


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