# Power Saver, BS?



## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

protechplumbing said:


> Shocking, could you please explain how putting 2 fixed capacitance, non-switched caps(one size fits all) on a residential(no power factor billing) system is going to save the HO money? Please remember that HO are billed for KWAs and not KVAs.


I can, possible scenario; you might have spent the money used to buy that piece of crap energy saving "device" on a few beers at the local tavern, you may have been stopped by the cops on the way home, arrested for DUI and lost your license, not being able to work, costing you a bundle, not to mention the cost of an attorney, court costs, traffic school and fines. I'd say that thing saved you a small fortune, maybe you should buy another one.



.


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## Shocking (Dec 2, 2008)

I actually had this question asked from some leviton techs and one of there engineers. If you correct power factor on any given service provided its sized right. All motor or non-linear loads will run more efficiently. Therefore reducing KWH. So the next question was how do you correct PF on so many different loads. Your not! Your correcting it on the power companies side (line side) Ive seen it on my own home just on my AC condensor where not only am I running 2.3 amps less on both legs its also less on start-up. Simply put, if your meter is spinning less, does'nt that equal less KWH. I don't know any other way to explain it other than we have a lot of happy customers.


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## Shocking (Dec 2, 2008)

I'll be back tomorrow!!


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

uhhh, yeah, what he said


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Shocking said:


> I actually had this question asked from some leviton techs and one of there engineers. If you correct power factor on any given service provided its sized right. All motor or non-linear loads will run more efficiently. Therefore reducing KWH. So the next question was how do you correct PF on so many different loads. Your not! Your correcting it on the power companies side (line side) Ive seen it on my own home just on my AC condensor where not only am I running 2.3 amps less on both legs its also less on start-up. Simply put, if your meter is spinning less, does'nt that equal less KWH. I don't know any other way to explain it other than we have a lot of happy customers.


The ONLY contention here is the POSSIBILITY of you soliciting sales. 

If not....Cool. Teach and instruct us while receiving an education.

If so.....Persona Non-grata.


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## Shocking (Dec 2, 2008)

No soliciting needed. Just into what I do. Wish I could make my employees follow.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Shocking said:


> No soliciting needed. Just into what I do. Wish I could make my employees follow.


Then WELCOME to ContractorTalk.com!!!


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

mickeyco said:


> I can, possible scenario; you might have spent the money used to buy that piece of crap energy saving "device" on a few beers at the local tavern, you may have been stopped by the cops on the way home, arrested for DUI and lost your license, not being able to work, costing you a bundle, not to mention the cost of an attorney, court costs, traffic school and fines. I'd say that thing saved you a small fortune, maybe you should buy another one.



Brilliant!!!


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

Why do you need to say "both legs"? Most condensers in the USA are on 2 wire 240v systems, so if you have X amps on one side, you will have X amps on the other side as well (unless there is a ground fault). Those two readings are the same current.

What do you mean by "line side" and "load side"? Are you talking about the transformer on the pole?

I still don't see how slapping the same amount of capacitance on every home (regardless of how many inductive loads are present) is going to give a favorable power factor. My understanding of power factor correction is that you need to size your caps to your coils. That's why each motor has its own capacitor on it that is sized for that specific motor size and type. It would be the equivalent of putting the same transmission in all automobiles whether it be an economy car, formula 1 race car or dump truck. It doesn't work that way. You have to match your henrys to your farads to get the proper phase shift.



Shocking said:


> I actually had this question asked from some leviton techs and one of there engineers. If you correct power factor on any given service provided its sized right. All motor or non-linear loads will run more efficiently. Therefore reducing KWH. So the next question was how do you correct PF on so many different loads. Your not! Your correcting it on the power companies side (line side) Ive seen it on my own home just on my AC condensor where not only am I running 2.3 amps less on both legs its also less on start-up. Simply put, if your meter is spinning less, does'nt that equal less KWH. I don't know any other way to explain it other than we have a lot of happy customers.


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## Shocking (Dec 2, 2008)

My bad. I was trying to be to explanatory and stated the obvious. They are sizing capacitance to the amperage of your service. Now specifically how it handles each load is correcting power factor at the meter (line side= meter to the unit). Not the load side=unit to the load or loads, there is a difference. By correcting your power factor you use less amps or become more efficient which in turn leads to less KWH. Fast spinning meter=high amp usage, slow meter the obvious. So in turn you would have less KWH in a thirty day billing cycle, the two are directly correlated (did I spell that right). On another note I have a buddy that spoke to an engineer about your same unit and he stated a similar situation of what you experienced. Therefore he figures its all a hoax. Look, I can tell you this. When I turn my unit off I see a rise in amperage. I turn it on I see a decline.


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## Paul Joseph (Nov 11, 2007)

First actual bill since I installed it. The usage was down 13 percent, I dont know how it works, it just does. I have the bills to prove it, In two more months see will see again.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Power factor corrector is very important in a large plug-in air conditioners, but not for the purpose of saving power. The restraint on them is that if they use a standard 15A outlet, UL says only 12A continuous is permitted. If the power factor of the motor is only 0.7, you can only use 1008W at 12A. 

By using capacitors to correct power factor to 0.95, the compressor can extract up to 1368W without exceeding wiring capacity. 

Without the power factor correction, the same 1368W unit draws 16A and requires a 20A circuit, however the presence of power factor correction doesn't affect the energy usage. It just makes a better use of power transmission resource. 

Microwave is another appliance with low raw PF that must make available the most power from a 15A outlet. 

Such things are often built with integral PFC capacitor.

It is often used by industrial users to raise the facilitys (damn firefox wont let me type apostrophe without starting the damn quick search!!!) power factor to make better use of power companys or facilitys transformers. These users are imposed surcharge for having a poor power factor, so increasing the power factor reduce punitive fees. Residential users are not.

It can only correct phase shift power factor reduction. It cant address poor power factor caused by highly harmonic SMPS loads, such as VFDs, IT Equipment, non power factor adjusted fluorescent electronic ballasts. 

Computers have a power factor of about 0.5-0.6 and it is uncorrectable and causes a harmonic distortion on the line itself thats uncorrectable. As such, EU requires each computer power supply to be equipped with active PFC to not create harmonics on the power line.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

Wel said.


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## Shocking (Dec 2, 2008)

So tell me why on so many houses, I have less amps on line side and customers telling me their saving. LESS AMPS=LESS KWH. Does your guys meters spin the same speed out there. I have no other way of explaining it. Electric light, I know and understand your points. How can I explain mine to you.


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## TrblShooter (Oct 28, 2008)

Paul Joseph said:


> First actual bill since I installed it. The usage was down 13 percent, I dont know how it works, it just does. I have the bills to prove it, In two more months see will see again.


Then how can this happen?

I'll be the 1st to admit I don't know much if anything about them, BUT I have heard many ppl say the ones they have installed (yes homeowners) have lowered their usage (hence their monthly bill) from 8 to 15 %.
I dunno, but anything that may "slow down" my meter is going to save me money...*shrug

Like I said I am about clueless when it comes to this, but all the theory in the world doesn't seem to support what is actually happening.

One thing I would caution, is to compare your bills from last year at this time, taking into account the daily temp, your usage, and the rate at which you are/were charged. Not the last month or so. I'd wanna compare how much I may or may not be saving based off of comparable data, month by month wouldn't be that unless you live in an area where the temp and weather is fairly constant all the time.

The one argument I've read is that If it does save money, the amount it would save monthly is so small, that it would take years to make up the cost of the units. Umm either it works or it doesn't, ya can't be saying "it will never work" then say ..."well it wont work fast enough to recoup the costs in "X" amount of time" lol
I understand saying that and it's an important factor of course, but ya can't have both opinions 
So which is it?
Do you all have them installed to say this, or is this based on theory?
I dunno...a Bumblebee by all rights, can't fly either.

I have one and have yet to install it (was given to me) but I think now, more then ever, I wanna try it.


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## Shocking (Dec 2, 2008)

The one argument I've read is that If it does save money, the amount it would save monthly is so small, that it would take years to make up the cost of the units. Umm either it works or it doesn't, ya can't be saying "it will never work" then say ..."well it wont work fast enough to recoup the costs in "X" amount of time" lol
I understand saying that and it's an important factor of course, but ya can't have both opinions 
So which is it?
Do you all have them installed to say this, or is this based on theory?
I dunno...a Bumblebee by all rights, can't fly either.

_Yes, Typically 1.5 to 2 yrs. depending upon your usage. Yes, installed to say this (more than a few). Theory is involved also._


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Shocking said:


> So tell me why on so many houses, I have less amps on line side and customers telling me their saving. LESS AMPS=LESS KWH. Does your guys meters spin the same speed out there. I have no other way of explaining it. Electric light, I know and understand your points. How can I explain mine to you.


Because, customer testimonials aren't based on data from controlled settings, it can't be used to validate the effectiveness of the gimmick.

Look at your last month's power bill. Look at the power bill form the year before. Is it exactly the same? 

I'm afraid you're wrong here. When you're dealing with AC power, you need to know the power factor. You can not know the wattage (kWh is wattage over time, for example 1kW for one hour is 1kWh, 4kW for 15min is 1kWh) without knowing the power factor. You need to use an integrating power meter to measure power. The utility power meter is an analog integration device that pretty much logs like an odometer on your car.

V x A x PF = Watt 
PF is a value between 0 and 1. 

You assume PF = 1.0 for resistors and light bulbs and heaters. 

Power factor correction doesn't reduce power usage. It increases power factor and reduce amperage. 

Power meters that take into account the time, power factor, demand etc are expensive, so they're not common in homes, although some utilities are starting to use 'em. They're essentially like an odometer that tracks driving habit as well. I believe some place in Canada use 'em to track suspicious power usage pattern to in order to spot pot growing. i.e. customers with all gas heating using 7kW at 2AM in middle of summer. 

Since poor power factor reduces utilization factor of power distribution equipment, power company is justifiable annoyed at the consumption of available capacity of their capital equipment. 

So major power users, like office buildings and factories are penalized for having a poor power factor since they're such a major user by themselves that it makes sense to manage them in that way.

That device is basically fraud praying upon people without the understanding of power factor.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

In my area everyone has gone to digital meters. Usually GE CL's.


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## Shocking (Dec 2, 2008)

(Power factor correction doesn't reduce power usage. It increases power factor and reduce amperage. )

I understand all that and everything else. Please explain to me why reduced amperage would not have an effect on a power bill.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

Most meters are digital nowadays and I believe they can tell the difference by measuring phase shift much the same as a power quality analyzer can.


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