# Explanation for wiring?



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Robnj772 said:


> You should hire a professional . It amazes me that this site allows DIYers . Shame on the guys giving this clown help


You could have said the same thing without being so abrasive.

Carpentersfo has been around long enough to get assistance when he asks for it. Any civil contractor is able to get help here, that's what its all about.. :thumbsup:


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> You could have said the same thing without being so abrasive.


He'd still be wrong.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

I may be all kinds of low-down things, but DIYer isn't one of 'em. My license is on my site.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Robnj772 said:


> You should hire a professional . It amazes me that this site allows DIYers . Shame on the guys giving this clown help


Im assuming you believe the pic posted was done by the OP? 

From his posts , Bob is no DIYer.

We dont allow DIYers :thumbsup:


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Robnj772 said:


> You should hire a professional . It amazes me that this site allows DIYers . Shame on the guys giving this clown help


Get off your pedestal. We understand that sometimes an electrician isn't always needed to solve problems. Sometimes they are. We have another forum for electricians, I suggest you try your forum experience there.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

CarpenterSFO said:


> I may be all kinds of low-down things, but DIYer isn't one of 'em. My license is on my site.


We know, no need to justify yourself. Everybody needs advice sometimes, except Leo, he knows everything... :laughing:


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> I may be all kinds of low-down things, but DIYer isn't one of 'em. My license is on my site.


And that's not an invitation to tell me how crappy my site is.:laughing:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Well we know your not a web designer now.. :laughing:


----------



## iggy (Mar 3, 2013)

Robnj772 said:


> You should hire a professional . It amazes me that this site allows DIYers . Shame on the guys giving this clown help


amayzing your the kid I use to beat up on the playground every day:laughing:.


----------



## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)

see below.


----------



## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Why 2 hots coming into switch box (and spliced together)? They're both hot when not spliced, which doesn't make sense to me. I wonder if it's a 3-way switch location, and the other end is buried in the wall, with the travelers spliced.


If you're saying they have 120v when not spliced I would try leaving them disconnected and test if everything down the line still works. It might have fed 2 switches in the past with 2 separate feeds and somebody who didn't know what they were doing just tied them together. My 2 cents.


----------



## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Wow, I thought my website was bad


----------



## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Well Bob, I've worked on knob and tube issues in San Mateo, Santa Clara and Santa Cruz counties, and, to be honest, KT is not that hard. 

What's hard is that people (HO's, sons of HOS's, Friend of HOs, distant cousins of HO's, and HD Handymen) go in and screw around with it with out knowing how KT is laid out. They don't "get it" as to which line is hot and which line is neutral. Plus, it it gets really old, which is probably your case, you can't tell which is which cus the white color has flaked off and they both look black (or grey). When DIY'ers don't use a meter or tester they go by color (which assumes a lot in itself). 

When coming across issues like yours, I end up drawing a map and start disconnecting and tracing lines back, usually back to a convoluted splice or connection that someone made.


----------



## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Robnj772 said:


> You should hire a professional . It amazes me that this site allows DIYers . Shame on the guys giving this clown help


I couldn't let this one pass

so, right now, I am remodeling my place. I am obviously doing all the wiring, but I am also doing all the: painting, drywall, texture, plumbing, wall and soffit construction, doors, cabinets, etc. 

I may not be a pro on these other trades, but, I do a lot of research, I ask my other trade friends ( and have them check things out ). 

So I guess that I'm just another "freekin" DIY clown that asks for help now and then. :thumbup:


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

And the winners are ...

First prize to Leo, for mentioning the neutral
and honorable mention to cwatbay, for mentioning the H.D. handymen - in fact the hacker was a C.L. handyman, 

who added some basement and garage lights and receptacles a couple years ago. I found an overstuffed concealed box in the garage ceiling with 4 old conductors entering - one hot, one neutral, and 2 travelers from the 3-way switch where I found the original problem. The 20 THHN conductors leaving the box for various destinations, including the other 3-way switch I originally hypothesized about, are all black. There's not a single white conductor in the whole mess, no way to distinguish any conductor from any other. Neutral isn't exactly missing - it was simply an unknown concept to the guy. Of the 4 switches in the mess, 3 are marked with sharpy - "Dead?". It's hard to imagine what the guy thought he was doing - I suppose he just changed connections until the breaker stopped flipping.

Anyway, that's the story. Kind of hall of shame-ish. The darn thing is, I've run into the guy's work before; never met him in person, never ran into his electrical work before, just plumbing previously.


----------



## Jdub2083 (Dec 18, 2011)

CarpenterSFO said:


> And the winners are ...
> 
> First prize to Leo, for mentioning the neutral
> and honorable mention to cwatbay, for mentioning the H.D. handymen - in fact the hacker was a C.L. handyman,
> ...


Glad you found the solution. I know nothing about k&t wiring so I didn't chime in on this but I've been keeping an eye on it to see how it panned out. At least you figured it out so now when you DIY it next time it won't be such a headache. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

A question and comment. First off, is this your home or a customer? If it's not, in California, as a GC are you permitted to do electrical repairs for customers? If the wiring is as bad as you say, I see a liability issue. No telling what else is wrong, and possibly a hazzard. Did you inform the HO of other problems, or even look?

If it is your home, are you working on repairing all the issues?


----------



## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

CarpenterSFO said:


> No DIYer here. Click on the link below my name, or don't, ain't no never mind to me.


But you're not a sparky


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

TxElectrician said:


> A question and comment. First off, is this your home or a customer? If it's not, in California, as a GC are you permitted to do electrical repairs for customers? If the wiring is as bad as you say, I see a liability issue. No telling what else is wrong, and possibly a hazzard. Did you inform the HO of other problems, or even look?
> 
> If it is your home, are you working on repairing all the issues?


... and in response to jslconstruction.

A customer's house. In California, my GC license entities me to do any trade I want, on 3-trade jobs; for 1- or 2-trade jobs I'm restricted to carpentry, which most locales consider to be anything covered under a building rather than electrical or plumbing permit. When I pull an electrical permit or plumbing permit, the locale generally asks me to show the 2 other accompanying permits. (and I can't do C-16 or C-57 in any case).

Legally, I could even do new services or changes of service in those cases, but I know my limitations and I don't do that work. I'm also restricted legally and otherwise in what my employees can do, and I don't ever have them do electrical.

If it's worth anything, it's not really my personal or business goal to take food from the mouths of baby sparkies. But sometimes the job just needs to be done, and in this case, the problem turned out to be very simple, with a very simple resolution - verify and correct all the wiring leading from a single jbox. In those 99.999% of cases that it's actually rocket science, I call a sparky.

I am very aware of the liability question.

So, for the last time, this is not DIY. I have no illusions about this actually satisfying the blood-lust of some of the sparkies here, but the horse is not only dead, it's already been ground up and sold as hamburger in some English supermarket.

- Bob


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Bob....

I'm pretty new to site/computer, but I've enjoyed your professional input... and your defense of GC's asking an electrical type question and just inquiring of anyone who cares enough to answer. Those who don't want to answer or participate, don't have to. I see you help everyone plenty.

I know your problem is solved... but I was honestly interested in the initial problem... I saw your 100 potential on one line and your 20 on the other. 100+20=120 Makes me think that something might have gotten in series. You may have gotten the solution w/o actually figuring the problem. Just an inquiry, if you had time.

Also, I'm a GC out of Colorado, but have been building 1800 ft onto my son's Dana Point home ...and now my daughter just got a 1953 Tiburon "gehetto" home, which I just spent 3 months helping clean it up for her. 

WOW..Cali sure is different building... but we're having fun in your state full of great people (buracrats and politicians excepted) and great weather.

Best regards

Peter


----------



## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> First prize to Leo, for mentioning the neutral


:whistling

Leo, RS, same difference I guess.:laughing:


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Bob....
> 
> I'm pretty new to site/computer, but I've enjoyed your professional input... and your defense of GC's asking an electrical type question and just inquiring of anyone who cares enough to answer. Those who don't want to answer or participate, don't have to. I see you help everyone plenty.
> 
> ...


Thanks, and welcome to California. It can be crazy, but it's a great state.

I wish I could provide a conclusive reason for those specific voltages, but the simplest thing to do was to simply to pull the mess and rewire from the jbox downstream. Couple hours' work.

- Bob


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Bob... yea gotcha... sure alot easier when your opened-up and can just rip out the old crap and do it right.


----------

