# VCT Tiles installed upside down



## Jaketoo (Aug 8, 2007)

I installed some Armstrong Excelon Imperial Texture tiles with the "Fast Start" factory finish side down. It was a small job 5'x5' bathroom. Can I give the dull side a good washing and put some polish down? Do they need to be stripped and or sealed first? Do you think the tiles will eventually lift because of a bad bond between adhesive and factory finish? Thanks.


----------



## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Jaketoo said:


> I installed some Armstrong Excelon Imperial Texture tiles with the "Fast Start" factory finish side down. It was a small job 5'x5' bathroom. Can I give the dull side a good washing and put some polish down? Do they need to be stripped and or sealed first? Do you think the tiles will eventually lift because of a bad bond between adhesive and factory finish? Thanks.


For 25sf I would just tear em out and redo. You will waste more time trying to figure out a way around the problem than just buckling down and getting it over with. Use a mapp gas torch and a pry bar, its the quickest way i have found to get up freshly laid tile. After you get them all up skim it real quick with some soupy patch and let it dry. Scrape it down and you are back to square one. Hour and a half at the most. Just my .02


----------



## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

What happened??

Were they packed in the box upside-down?? :laughing:

Just kiddin', - - couldn't resist. :whistling

I agree with Precision, - - take 'em up . . . :thumbsup:


----------



## Jaketoo (Aug 8, 2007)

*VCT upside down*

Thank you for that info. Could you explain what the soupy patch is, and what you mean by scraping it down after it dries. Is the soupy patch helping to scrape up the adhesive? Thanks


----------



## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

I should let him answer, - - but until he does, - - I'd say by 'soupy patch' he means a (wet, almost watery-mixed) floor patch that you can 'skim-coat' the floor with after your removal . . .


----------



## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Yup & Yup

Soupy just means a loose mix, and it is to help encapsulate the adhesive. A "wetter" mix will be a ton easier to spread on gummy glue  Put a fan on it and it will dry quicker. O btw use a portland based (grey) patch not gypsum (white)...unless you're laying it on dry wall :laughing:


----------



## Jaketoo (Aug 8, 2007)

*VCT upside down*

Thank you. So when you say scrape it down after it dries you are talking about scratching up the surface so the new adhesive bonds well? Do you scrape the patch mix with the teeth on a trowel?


----------



## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

No, scrape it down with a dull scraper. It is to knock down the lumps and bumps you will invariably have after you skim coat it.


----------



## Demonseed (Jun 22, 2007)

I would have figured at least one tile would have been right side up, unless you opened the box upside down. Everything Precision said is the way to go. In some cases, if you caught the upside down tiles fast enough, and had let the glue dry properly, you might get away with popping them, cleaning them and putting them back in. (maybe a little cove base adhesive JIC). 

Our 'Hired Gun' VCT guy, his second day, I walked up and pointed out 12 upside down tiles, he owes me some beers.


----------



## Mike Costello (Aug 1, 2004)

Ok temporary thread hijack for a helper tile story.

It was time my new helper learned the finer points about trowelling down adhesive.

Finally got a job to glue that wasnt a finished kitchen or bath, so I figured this would be a good time.

It was 7 offices and a hall of VCT( around 1600 ft) .We were putting up base after so no better time.

I started her ( yes I said her, best damn helper Ive ever had) in the hall. She has watched me glue about 50 times to this point so I just let her go after showing her the angle for the trowel.Explaining that the teeth were a gauge to apply the proper amount of glue.

She took to it pretty much like everthing else shes tried-awsome-and off she went.
I was in another office prepping or napping or something when I heard her cry for help. ( ok she just yelled for me).

She had made her way into one of the offices that was around 15 x20 and totally glued herself into the corner.

She knew she was done for cuz I had just bought a new camera( pics soon ).

I tossed her some stepping stone tiles down to get her out.

Funny thing, she glued two more offices up and did the same damn thing in an office across the hall. She said it was cuz the door was opposite the other offices on the other side of the hall.Lol.

Ill bet ten doughnuts she never does it again.

As for upsidedown tiles. Having installed about a million sq miles of the stuff(use to do commercial) I would say that its no biggie to leave them down and just finish the side thats showing.
The factory finish on the tiles is minimal nd if you used enough adhesive and let it set properly(no fan)...and rolled it, you should be ok. Is it right ? No.Will it fail? Havent seen it happen yet and we use to have drug addled temp helpers on some of the big retail store jobs that would do 2/3ds of a room upsidedown.

The only factor would be the apperance of the bottom of the tile. Sometimes the thru chips arent all the way through.


----------



## Jaketoo (Aug 8, 2007)

*VCT upside down*

I had never done a VCT job before. Almost all my work is residential. This homeowner asked me to do some emergency water damage repair work at their office and new VCT was one of the jobs. I ran over to Home Depot and grabbed a couple boxes of Armstrong Excelon. I could not find any instructions. I thought I read all the writing on the box, but missed the sentence about the FAST START factory finish. Everything is written in three languages, and most of the writing on the box is warnings about removing the old flooring. Luckily I mentioned this job to a guy at the lumberyard and he told me to rent the 100lb roller. The lighting was very poor and although I looked at both sides of the tile I didn't notice the difference. Doh! This was a rush job I fit into my scheduel for a great old customer because they had a pipe burst and flood their office. Now everytime I walk in a store I look down at the VCT. I notice they stagger the grain pattern. I guess I made two mistakes, because I ran all the grain the same way. At least it's just a 5'x5' bathroom. The toilet and the vanity cover a lot of the floor too. Why do you stagger the grain? Is that for looks or strength. Or both?


----------



## Demonseed (Jun 22, 2007)

That is a good question, 95% of the VCT jobs I do are a checkerboard installation, once in a great while a designer or architect will want all of the grain running the same way. My personal opinion, it is mostly a matter of aesthetics, but I also think it helps eliminate possible variances in the tile or the installation conditions. Basically, if you were to take 5 boxes of tiles, and run them on a floor in a straight line, both going the same direction, even using compression, you will find one may measure to be 225.15 inches, the other to be 224.85 inches (just guesstimates). While that may seem miniscule, on a large installation that will develop into a run off at the intersection of 4 tiles or worse even, small windows. In my opinion, it seems easier to compress the tiles going with the grain, so the checker board allows for more control of the installation. 




Jaketoo said:


> I had never done a VCT job before. Almost all my work is residential. This homeowner asked me to do some emergency water damage repair work at their office and new VCT was one of the jobs. I ran over to Home Depot and grabbed a couple boxes of Armstrong Excelon. I could not find any instructions. I thought I read all the writing on the box, but missed the sentence about the FAST START factory finish. Everything is written in three languages, and most of the writing on the box is warnings about removing the old flooring. Luckily I mentioned this job to a guy at the lumberyard and he told me to rent the 100lb roller. The lighting was very poor and although I looked at both sides of the tile I didn't notice the difference. Doh! This was a rush job I fit into my scheduel for a great old customer because they had a pipe burst and flood their office. Now everytime I walk in a store I look down at the VCT. I notice they stagger the grain pattern. I guess I made two mistakes, because I ran all the grain the same way. At least it's just a 5'x5' bathroom. The toilet and the vanity cover a lot of the floor too. Why do you stagger the grain? Is that for looks or strength. Or both?


----------



## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

The reason behind a 1/4 turn pattern is expansion and contraction. The tile will move more with the grain than it will against. If you run them all one direction you risk having gaps open up over time. If the tiles are turned they are in essence fighting one another for movement space. Demonseed is also correct on the runout issue too :thumbsup:


----------



## Jaketoo (Aug 8, 2007)

I was wondering about expansion and contraction. That is interesting that the VCT grain will work like wood. A piece of board will expand and contract width wise, but it wont get longer or shorter. I gave those upside down VCT tiles a good cleaning yesterday, and put four coats of polish on them. They look great. The tiles looked dry and thirsty after I cleaned them (with liquid TSP) and rinsed them. I feel good about the way the tiles soaked up that first coat of polish. There must be a good bond there. I'm not worried about this floor anymore. It's not a high traffic area, it looks great and everybody is happy. It was a good learning experience. Thanks for all the help.


----------



## Jaketoo (Aug 8, 2007)

Hey, I just got an email back from Armstrong. They said "The Fast Start finish will not interfere with the adhesive bond." That makes me feel better.


----------



## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Good info to know, glad it worked out for you. For once the easy way worked lol.


----------



## Demonseed (Jun 22, 2007)

Imagine this one, 5-6,000 ft of VCT with a specific pattern that has to line up where a counter will eventually be installed. The guy running the job snaps a line and says to start laying the field, and 4 hours later figures out he messed up. The entire pattern on the counter side is off by 9". There is no way to make the correction at this point without taking up all of the tile, luckily, they decided it was no big deal to just install the counter 9" over from where they planned. ( I did say 4 times, this can't be right because the numbers do not add up, you can't split an odd number with an even pattern without making a shift to make up for the difference, but he signs the checks and said "just put down tile")


----------

