# I need to talk to someone!



## Hiz & Herz (Oct 25, 2007)

We are a small painting buss...have lots of questions regarding pricing....is there any basic formula to caculate sq'...what is the going sq' rate...is it per coat...please help...i would love to talk to a pro on the phone; i'll pay the long distance!


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

These days long distance is basicly free. It will be the high dollar consultation fee. $$$$.
You could buy the 
National Painting Cost Estimator 2007 edition.
This would just be a rough idea. 
The best way is to just start giving estimates.
If everyone jumps on your price, raise it.
If nobody goes with you then you are to high. Live and learn, walk the walk of the painting contractor, and keep evolving into a profitable business.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> T
> If everyone jumps on your price, raise it.
> If nobody goes with you then you are to high.


Does that theory work when comparing high-end homes to rental properties?


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Workaholic said:


> The best way is to just start giving estimates.
> If everyone jumps on your price, raise it.
> If nobody goes with you then you are to high. Live and learn, walk the walk of the painting contractor, and keep evolving into a profitable business.


if you can manage to stay afloat long enough to stop giving low or bad estimates and start making money...


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Hiz & Herz said:


> please help...i would love to talk to a pro on the phone; i'll pay the long distance!


no ... you'll pay a 200% mark up on the long distance charge.... (LD+ 200% of LD)

a rate of $3.80 per minute

with a $500 minimum deposit ... made payable prior to the phone call

no warranties expressed or implied




and that's just to "talk to a pro" 

.... does not include charge for various subject matters such as consultation for pricing, setting up corporation, insurance, project management, etc


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## Hiz & Herz (Oct 25, 2007)

*Chat room*

could someone plz join me in the chat room so we can chat...thnx


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

no offense...but there are books upon books written about what you are asking...it's not something that can be learned effectively in a forum chatroom...

good luck though


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

Celtic said:


> Does that theory work when comparing high-end homes to rental properties?


Well i would say of course not, most people should have some sense about them to distinguish the difference. I mean if you can not tell the diference between a blow and go job vs high end job then you should'nt be in the biz.



mahlere said:


> if you can manage to stay afloat long enough to stop giving low or bad estimates and start making money...


Well i could of gone into the usual rant about over head, insurance, knowing your profit margins.
I figured that he must have some idea of what it costs to operate his business. You really do need to live and learn, don't you think?


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

Not to mention thread after thread here all telling people the same thing.. "How much does it cost you to do the job?"


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Workaholic said:


> I figured that he must have some idea of what it costs to operate his business. You really do need to live and learn, don't you think?


refigure


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

mahlere said:


> refigure


LOL i guess you could be right.

Ok then i suggest using the search feature, lots of good info there.


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## Hiz & Herz (Oct 25, 2007)

*i have bought a book*

the book is great but how they caculate is strange to me...they add the perimeter then times it by wall height then times it by hourly rate....where i live most painters charge by sq' per coat..this is floor sq'...i have also seen floor sq' times by 3 to get wall sq' then times by 0.40 per coat...all these formulas caculate way different...is commercial higher then house?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

LOL

Begging for the answer to the eternal question of "How much....?"

WTF did people do before the internet?
That doesn't matter at all ....every answer to every question ever asked in all of creation can now be answered by some guy on some forum on the internet in under 3 minutes.
Read a book? What are you, retarded or something? :laughing:


Yea, they have a clue.


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## johnthepainter (Feb 23, 2006)

hizandherz,i would contact paul burns at www.100ktheeasyway.com
he has a plan that will help


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## Hiz & Herz (Oct 25, 2007)

*john*

thanks for the link...but that doesn't do much for me as i don't reside in the US...i live in Canada..by the way i'm sorry for pissing in anyone cornflakes by asking about pricing!


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

Hiz & Herz said:


> thanks for the link...but that doesn't do much for me as i don't reside in the US...i live in Canada..by the way i'm sorry for pissing in anyone cornflakes by asking about pricing!


Naw it's just that prices vary all across the country, much less in another country.


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## Hiz & Herz (Oct 25, 2007)

*Does anyone use a 18" roller*

what is your thoughts on a 18" roller?
do you spray and then backroll?


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

Thats when i use an 18"


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## Hiz & Herz (Oct 25, 2007)

*let me introduce ourselves*

my husband and i live in alberta and we are going through one of our best building booms...i did interior painting seven years ago right out of school...then had kids and kinda got out of it...my husband an automotive painter for the last 20 years...for the last 3 years we have done small reno's for friends and family...then we flipped a house last year...we just finished an office building...we took on mud and tape, paint and tile, 10000 sq' of it...major lesson learned and we now we realize that we need to focus on 1 trade and we chose painting, for many reasons...and that is who we are...just looking for some freindly advice...


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

Hiz & Herz said:


> ...by the way i'm sorry for pissing in anyone cornflakes by asking about pricing!
> 
> ...just looking for some freindly advice...


Appreciate that..thanks
It's probably not what you think though
It's just that lots of people ask "what do I charge" like there's this big book we all use and get our prices from
Or like they should charge what someone else should
Or like there is a "going rate" 
That's crap, not true, and bogus

Truly one needs to understand what one's expenses and production rates are to get a handle on one's business
It's not a good idea to use someone else's numbers...they have nothing to do with your expenses and overhead

That's like deciding to make computers and just take some HP retail prices and slapping them on your H&H computers...it's not good
It may get you by.....but it's really not good
What's the going rate for a computer?
Should H&H charge what Toshiba does?

Think of it this way...maybe it'll help
What bank would lend you money if your business plan said "we're going to charge what some book says we should" or "what some other business charges"
Who's going to invest in a business with such a haphazard price structure that has no relationship to actual (cost) numbers?

Think about it
I own a business, and don't know what to charge?
That really should have been figured out earlier in the process
I understand, I've been there...
But guess what, my best answer is don't use someone else's numbers
Use your own
If you don't know them, estimate and adjust as you go along
The "going rate" is a load...might as well call it the "going broke rate"
Find what you need to charge and then find your market


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## Hiz & Herz (Oct 25, 2007)

*thanks*

could i ask what your stepping order is when it comes to new const.

this confuzes me, is it normal for floors to go in after paint, and then return days later to do jams and molding...or is the painter the last contractor before handing the keys over?


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## johnthepainter (Feb 23, 2006)

one size doesnt fit all


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

Last in last out
But it doesn't always work out that way


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## POOLMANinCT (Oct 7, 2006)

hiz & herz...

money & pricing is an emotional thing. throw out the algebra & calculations... if your proposal price doesn't put a big smile on your face, raise it. 

ray


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

Hiz & Herz said:


> the book is great but how they caculate is strange to me...they add the perimeter then times it by wall height then times it by hourly rate....where i live most painters charge by sq' per coat..this is floor sq'...i have also seen floor sq' times by 3 to get wall sq' then times by 0.40 per coat...all these formulas caculate way different...is commercial higher then house?


I don't know anything about pricing paint work, but the formula you show here is correct for wall square footage. 

Think of it in a slightly different way...measure the length of all walls you need to paint and multiply by ceiling height. You should consider buying an inexpensive measuring wheel from Home Depot. I use it for measuring for base and crown...makes it really easy.

Say for instance, you come up with a total wall measurement of 365 linear feet....and you have 8' ceilings. 365 x 8 = 2920 sq. ft of walls. At .40 cents a sq. ft. that would be $1,168 per coatfor the walls. Don't forget to add ceiling sq. if they need to be painted, too. Ceiling sq. footage is almost always VERY close to floor square footage. Let's say this house is 1450 sq. ft. At .40 cents, this is $580. Figure the house was painted all flat navajo white and is in ok shape, just too bland. The customer wants it some sort of sand color. I would guess no primer is needed, (I could easily be wrong, here...this isn't the point) so 2 coats should cover the celing and walls...this job would be $3,496.00 before you touch any trim. Can you live off of that? How long would this job take two of you to do? 2 days? what would materials be?...$300 or so? $3,196.00 That's $792 per person per day. More than enough to cover average overhead and make a profit. Imagine if you had a whole crew of painters out there working for you at $25 per hour, painting 5 houses a week...Hell, I might get into the painting business.


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

http://www.costestimator.com/


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

Hiz & Herz said:


> is there any basic formula to caculate sq'


LxW=sq'


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## aceflooring (Oct 26, 2007)

*My swag estimating*

swag = Scientific-wild-ass-guess I specialize in flooring but I do a lot of remodeling projects. I know about what I want to make in a day, doing flooring I make about $200/day $100/half day. So I try to always make that but painting well... more people are able to do it so you have to drop the price or hire some cheap labors. Figure out how much you want per day how many days how much your going to spend on tool rental, paint, mileage. and throw that to the customer. I know how much I want to do the job and even when they try to talk me down I just stick to it. Now for some return customers like rental owners I keep it simple. all their places are cookie cut appartments some I bid it $50/room bath, live, kitch I just keep it the same. They usually don't need the ceilings painted but when they do I double the price. so $50 for ceiling $50 for walls 50+50= . Some jobs pay better then others but you'll get experience. Steping out on a limb is part of owning a buisness. most people can actualy do the work, but if there wasn't some degree courage require there wouldn't be helpers to hire.


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## send_it_all (Apr 10, 2007)

Ace, $200 per day is not enough to run a business on. Also, you might have to send Michael Stone a check for using his "swag" term.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

send_it_all said:


> Ace, $200 per day is not enough to run a business on. Also, you might have to send Michael Stone a check for using his "swag" term.


Not unless Micheal Whosis started using that term in public more than 40 years ago!


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## aceflooring (Oct 26, 2007)

I have a small buisness and that's my personal goal per day after operating expenses, pay employee's ect. as for the SWAG. I didn't come up with it, I don't have a clue who did, but it's starting to become a "common phrase" for contractors.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

aceflooring said:


> I have a small buisness and that's my personal goal per day after operating expenses, pay employee's ect. as for the SWAG. I didn't come up with it, I don't have a clue who did, but it's starting to become a "common phrase" for contractors.


It _has been_ a common phrase since _I _was in high school in the 60's:whistling
My partner uses it so often I've threatened to lay him out with a 2X4 if he ever says that in front of me again:w00t::laughing:


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## outsidethelines (Oct 19, 2007)

*thank you for the link *

I have tried using different methods to do my estimating. Most people tell me to go by sq. footage. Some say go by time. I'm not much of a numbers person. I look at the structure to be bid, I get out my laptop and start filling out the spread sheet that I created myself (so it is tailor made to suit my needs), I divide the work into different phases and figure out how long to complete each phase X the labor costs required. Hours X labor. Then I include all the other stuff, like equipment rental if any, materials cost, P/O or whatever. The computer does the math and all I have to do is fill out the proposal. 

However, a litttle while ago I saw the website link previously provided here and decided to test it out against the way I have been doing it. I am happy to discover that the numbers were reasonably close. My way was a bit higher. Boy, was I happy to see that. :clap:Thank you to whoever provided that link to HomeTech Cost Estimator. It was worth trying out, but I might just stick to doing it the way that works for me. I hate figuring out sq. footage. Or, maybe I will use both just to check myself (well, for the 30 day trial period that is).


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## donb1959 (Dec 9, 2004)

I figure how many days it will take me to do the job x 710.00 plus materials and a 15% material mark up, thats the price.


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## premierpainter (Dec 29, 2006)

Here is how we charge-
18 inch roller- $624.90 per hour
9 inch roller- double figure above
4 inch roller- triple figure above
When we spray, we charge- $896.09 per hour. If it is windy, we have to charge more, of course, because a lot of paint material is lost in overspray. 
I mean, using these figures I manage to work about 1 or 2 days a month. I don't like to work much, so if you like working I would consider lowering above numers by at least 92.76%
Good luck and hope everything works out for you guys.


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

premierpainter said:


> Here is how we charge-
> 18 inch roller- $624.90 per hour
> 9 inch roller- double figure above
> 4 inch roller- triple figure above
> When we spray, we charge- $896.09 per hour. If it is windy, we have to charge more, of course, because a lot of paint material is lost in overspray.


 :laughing:


premierpainter said:


> I mean, using these figures I manage to work about 1 or 2 days a month. I don't like to work much, so if you like working I would consider lowering above numers by at least 92.76%
> Good luck and hope everything works out for you guys.


:w00t: 
Livin the dream. :notworthy


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## sttryffe (Jun 29, 2006)

donb1959 said:


> I figure how many days it will take me to do the job x 710.00 plus materials and a 15% material mark up, thats the price.


Don......is that really how you come up with your price??????


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## donb1959 (Dec 9, 2004)

sttryffe said:


> Don......is that really how you come up with your price??????


Yes, that's my formula.


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## sttryffe (Jun 29, 2006)

donb1959 said:


> Yes, that's my formula.


Thanks Don! I've been struggling trying to come up with the "perfect formula" for estimating.....man it's like rocket science! But your way is pretty straight forward as long as I know my numbers and what can be done in a day! Tell me where do you factor in your profit??? Is it part of the materials markup??? Thanks again!


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

donb1959 said:


> I figure how many days it will take me to do the job x 710.00 plus materials and a 15% material mark up, thats the price.


Is that you as one painter?


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