# how should i approach this issue with my worker?



## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

He is taking care of things as they come up.....and then charging for it. Sounds like a keeper to me.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Will there be another thread started soon?

Would it sound like; "Jeez, my boss is a real cheapskate. He hired me to hang some siding but I found out that some plywood needed to be replaced before I could finish and there was a rotted window sill to repair. I fixed them and gave him a bill for materials and labor and he flipped out about the extra costs. 

Seems like he wants me to work for free. I'll have to ask him which one of my kids will get smaller helpings at dinner to help me be able to afford to help him save money enough so he can tell the customer no charge."

Good Luck
Dave


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## darr1 (May 25, 2010)

i dont mind going to the van and getting things out to use like screws , nails any little bits like that , i also dont mind doing a little extra on a job but there is limits and it adds up imagine them little bits cost him 40 dollars every job and then add time , so while i under stand what your saying , i would imagine there is something different to why you have these feelings towards him


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

welterweight said:


> i always pay. never ever do i refrain from that. i just get pissed of when i am being nickeled and dimed. i have great relationships with all my workers and subs. i consider myself as being very successful and have a very good rep amongst workers.
> as a successful businessman, if i am making a nice chunk of change off a siding job and a few small issues arise that may consume an hours worth of extra work, im not going to say anything..i might bring it up after final payment is submitted so the customer knows i took care of them..thats called good/ smart business. at the same time, my subs are making good money as well..to nickel and dime me for SMALL things is just stupid .. i know other owners of companies get pissed as well. most of my guys do some extra tasks and as i said, never even mention it because it wasnt very time consuming..if it is, of. ourse they should be paid.
> lets say a sub is making 3500 off a siding job then when i go and pay him, he says i owe him and extra 32 bucks for some nails.. that **** pisses me off especially when i am giving him so much work.. lets say he gives me a reciept for 120 bucks for various material, i totally understand.. its the small **** that bothers me.
> lets change things around, you're a customer and you are charges 25 grand for some sort of home improvement Nd i give you a reciept for 30 bucks for something.. you are going to be pissed and rightly so. as a businessman, i would never do that. some contractors do and they and they seem to always be the ones that complain how slow things are and how tough it is out there.. no, its because they arent good businessmen. thats my thoughts..sorry if some dont agree but again, i am talking about small amounts here. all my other guys never ever mention small stuff, its this one guy.


Well, you obviously went on a rant here because paragraphs, punctuation and everything else went right out the window. So, you obviously feel very strongly about your position and at least seem to be, a little peeved that not a single responder agrees with you. But, I'll try one more time to try and get you to understand....

It doesn't matter if it's $20 or $120. An expense was incurred by your installer to finish _*your*_ job that you have said _*you*_ are making good money on. It doesn't matter WHAT the installer is making or has already made on the project. That's already been agreed to and not relevant in this equation. 

Your installer is fulfilling his part of the equation by installing the job to your specifications at the mutually agreed to pricing structure. No where in your sub contractor agreement (you _DO_ have one with him I assume) does it say "Sub Contractor is responsible to furnish materials _*at his own expense *_should they be needed and not supplied by the General Contractor. So, he is just being a good businessman and accounting for all of his expenses.

Now, as I see it.... you have three options.
Tell him to call you each time he is short of material and you agree to drop everything and get it to him PDQ.
Bump his per square price on shingles and siding an agreed upon amount - with the stipulation that he will need to provide miscellaneous materials once in a while.
3. Just get over yourself and pay the man when he uses his own materials and supplies to finish one of your projects.

Sorry to be so abrupt, I don't mean to offend. But IMHO, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill here. The guy has out of pocket expenses on your job. It's not nickles and dimes. It's an expense incurred as part of the job PERIOD. Just pay him and be thankful he's there for you when you need him. Great subs are hard to find.

There are a lot bigger things to focus your efforts on.

Again.... just my $0.02, FWIW, IMHO, YMMV and all that.


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

A detailed scope of work and a purchase order for that work, nothing more and nothing less until a change order is agreed upon.
If you're supplying materials you can't expect him to pay for what you missed.
How would you feel if he was supplying materials and asked you to pay for the ridge vent he forgot?


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## welterweight (Nov 10, 2009)

wrong David.. if he goes to the supplier to pick up extra i get a receipt, thats different even if its 20 bucks.. i am talking about doing a bit extra without leaving the site when he has some extra nails laying around in the van..if its 2 boxes of nails that the supplier forgot to send, then of course he gets paid..however, if he changes 2 pieces of plywood and its at the job site, give me a break or if he replaces one window sill. as i said, thats nickel and diming.. if the house is 25 square and there is 2 pieces of siding left over he gets paid for 25 sq, im not going to deduct the 2 pieces of siding.. that would be nickel and diming on my part and thats not how i operate so why should he.. i think i am going to do that next week and see how he likes it,nthen he and i can talk after he gains some perspective.


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## hippie (Aug 22, 2011)

Say $32 once a week in extra materials, 32x 50 that's 1600$ he's giving you over a year. In other words are you asking him to do 1 or 2 jobs for free? Unless he's agreed to do any and everything involved for a set price he is in no way wrong to ask for this money. I don't care how much work someone is giving me, I'm not going to pay to work for someone. Nothing is unfair or wrong about him wanting to be paid, and if he is doing small jobs, $500- $2k range is what I gather from the op, that's not even nickel and dime, its a substantial amount.


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## welterweight (Nov 10, 2009)

32 a job is not realistic.. my beef is one job may be some nails, another may be changing a sill.. or " we had to remove an awning and it took us over a half hour to put it back up"".. that kind of bs..
so how would you guys like your bosses to say they are deducting 20 bucks because you only used 3/4 of a roll of a aluminum and deducted 30 bucks because there is one piece of siding left over.. would you like that? no you wouldnt.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

I understand what you are saying, but where do you split the hairs between a "couple" of nails and a couple of boxes of nails? Is it a single coil, two coils, a half box? If he uses a piece of two-by he has in his trailer to replace a rotted sill you missed. Is his time to measure, cut and install the thing not worth $20 to you? What kind of message are you really sending to him when you question these charges? That his stuff and time isn't worth as much as yours?

I dunno.... I think you are playing with fire here.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

> " we had to remove an awning and it took us over a half hour to put it back up"".. that kind of *bs*..


BS??? I pay my guys $75 to R/R and awning. I don't expect them to do it for free.


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## hippie (Aug 22, 2011)

welterweight said:


> 32 a job is not realistic.. my beef is one job may be some nails, another may be changing a sill.. or " we had to remove an awning and it took us over a half hour to put it back up"".. that kind of bs..
> so how would you guys like your bosses to say they are deducting 20 bucks because you only used 3/4 of a roll of a aluminum and deducted 30 bucks because there is one piece of siding left over.. would you like that? no you wouldnt.


Was the question of his status ever answered? Either he is an employee or a sub, if he is an employee then pay him per hour and provide the material he needs. If he's a sub then he either takes care of everything and bills for it or he's providing labor only and you need to provide all material. If he's not being clear about who is responsible for what then he is also at fault. That needs to be cleared up before anything else.

As far as where the extra material came from, if it was left over from a job he did for you or an unrelated job is irrelevant. It is inventory and is one of his business expenses, he has it, has been hauling it around, it was paid for with money that otherwise been profit on the job it came from. You guys need to figure out the specifics of your relationship, agree on something, and don't make exceptions or deviate from it and these problems would not exist


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## [email protected] (Aug 9, 2011)

It sounds to me like the guy is doing a great job. I would hate to be called over every little problem. A guy who takes the initiative to solve the problem without bothering me is a plus.

If the few dollars every job is that big a deal to you then tell the guy to kick rocks. Just add 1 more competitor who sounds like he has his s*it together.

BTW, I charge my customers any extra material and labor above and beyond the SOW. They understand that I dont work for free. Never had a problem.


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

pay him or find someone else.
next.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

welterweight said:


> 32 a job is not realistic.. my beef is one job may be some nails, another may be changing a sill.. or " we had to remove an awning and it took us over a half hour to put it back up"".. that kind of bs..
> so how would you guys like your bosses to say they are deducting 20 bucks because you only used 3/4 of a roll of a aluminum and deducted 30 bucks because there is one piece of siding left over.. would you like that? no you wouldnt.


 I don't have a boss....:no:


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## VAviaCo (Sep 3, 2008)

Jaws said:


> I don't have a boss....:no:


Which means you're single still.


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## fourcornerhome (Feb 19, 2008)

I had a boss like this once. The one thing I learned from him was how not to be a boss


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

VAviaCo said:


> Which means you're single still.


:laughing: I am married I guess I do have a boss.


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## nlgutters (Dec 18, 2007)

welterweight said:


> i have a guy i use for roofing , he also does some siding as well. he is very good and i am happy with his work except one thing; he nickel and dimes me for everything.
> example, the other day i payed him and he tells me he had to use a roll of his own ridge vent and a box of his nails.. now, i have other crews who wouldnt even mention this to me. i give this guy so much work and feel if he uses some of his own material ( within reason) why even bring it up to me. believe me, its not the money, its the nickel and diming.
> if he gets a 30 sq siding job and has to replace a sheet of plywood he wants to be paid. if he changes a small amount of rotted window trim, he asks for 25 bucks.. i pay thks guy well and give him alot of work as i said so i feel little extra things should be par for the course. now i have a built up animosity towards the guy. i want to talk to him and tell him if he intends to be part of my crew, i dont want to hear about him using his own nails or having to use some of his own felt paper. remember, im not talking about alot of material.
> am i wrong here?



I agree 100%. I have a sub like that right now...The guy will hold up a 30k job for 4 days then do it make 5k and then send another bill fro rehanging a pair of shutters and charge me $11 bucks.. Annoys the **** out of me


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

My wife is always picking up pennies on the ground. I laugh at her ans she just says "pennies make dollars". Well nickels and dimes make dollars faster. Most all of the posters here are not employees. even those of us with a "Boss":laughing: We got a pretty good idea of how things work. Pay the guy and be glad he's not charging a trip to the lumber yard and back plus 30% mark up on materials.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

If the guy goes and grabs a couple nails to bang some T-111 down before siding, I wouldn't expect him to charge and I wouldn't either. If I had to replace a sheet or two and repair a rotted sill or stud I might. If I was the salesman I would expect to pay for it. It would already be in my quote.

Those are things an experienced salesman/installer can usually figure on ahead of time. I know where the trouble on a shake house usually is and figure on it. I know where the trouble on a roof might be and put a little extra in. Not hard stuff. Just put that little bit in and make the guy happy. If he doesn't need it, you keep it.

I've been that installer. I always hated it when I would be asked to do or fix something because the salesman didn't put it in the bid. I had an exceptional relationship with the salesmen and the owner, but it still bugged me. Sure, installing 50 feet of flashing doesn't take long, but it cuts into the time I would be making money slapping up vinyl. Especially when there was no way to miss it, but it got missed.

On the other hand, If he explained to me he totally blew a job, or came to me and asked if we could help the HO together, I would be more than willing to give on my end.

It always amazes me when someone says that a few minutes here, or an hour there, or a few dollars over there shouldn't matter, as long I don't have to give it away. If it shouldn't matter to him, why should it matter to you? Is your pocket any better than his for keeping the money?

If it really bugs you, go and find another guy who will just bypass all those problems and allow you to deal with it when the HO calls and complains after the job is done.. How much will that save you.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

nlgutters said:


> I agree 100%. I have a sub like that right now...The guy will hold up a 30k job for 4 days then do it make 5k and then send another bill for rehanging a pair of shutters and charge me $11 bucks.. Annoys the **** out of me


I don't know why he's holding up a a $30K job for 4 days.... that's certainly not right. But his time to hang the shutters isn't worth the $11 to you? Well, then take an hours worth of drive time, 30 minutes of hanging shutters time - out of your day next time and hang them yourself. That'll sure teach 'em to not back charge you.  

To me, it would be worth the $11 to know it's done and you don't have to worry about it. Besides, $11 to hang a pair of shutters is cheap.

But, I understand that maybe my point of view is different. I don't mean to say you're wrong, I just don't see where it's a big deal personally.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

nlgutters said:


> I agree 100%. I have a sub like that right now...The guy will hold up a 30k job for 4 days then do it make 5k and then send another bill fro rehanging a pair of shutters and charge me $11 bucks.. Annoys the **** out of me


Shouldn't hanging the shutters be in your original scope of work for him? Then again, if you do anything extra, not in your contract, don't you charge the HO? Or at least have that option?

And what he said. ^^^^^^^^^^


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## welterweight (Nov 10, 2009)

no one answered this: if you were an installer, how would you feel if there were 2 pieces of siding left over on a 20 sq job so i refused to pay for a compete square. i payed for 19 1/2 sq ? or if you used 8 3/4 roll of aluminum and i only payed for 8 3/4 rather than 9 which i always do...you would feel as if you are being nickeled and dimed. so if you guys add up 1/4 roll of aluminum here, 2 pieces of siding there, thats adds up at the end of the year as well doesnt it? that could be more money in my pocket but i dont operate that way. how come its ok for the installer to charge for every small thing but i dont? look at it from that perspective.


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## Robs660 (Jan 15, 2012)

Jaws said:


> If I was a sub and you told me I couldn't mark up a change order I'd tell you to get
> 
> I bet you mark up your change orders.
> 
> As far as the discount, not happening either. I bid this scope, anything beyond that is extra. Simple as that.


Let me say it a different way because marking up change orders is 100% fine. If you choose to work with us and contract to replace a roof and while you are doing the re-roof you realize that you need an additional vent over and above what you quoted, you are empowered to go get it and bill us for it. Given that it should have Ben in your SOW we want you to do the right thing but we do not want to have to pay O/P on it. We have these policies for over 10 years and none of our subs have any issues with it. As a matter of fact I know that a few of my subs use a similar method when they sub out work. It makes the quotes better and more reliable. Nails, screws a roof vent, step flashing, caulk, glue, or other items should be included in the quote and if you short we will always pay for the job to be done right. If you are doing that roof for us and find that there is a 2x2 section of rot we expect you to replace the area. If you find that 3 sheets have gone bad we expect you to fix that as well, but we expect you to inform us, fill out a request for change order, document the issue and provide us a quote for the additional work. This can take all of 5 minutes to get an approval from us to proceed. In this case we would expect and assume markup. All of our contracts to clients state that we have the right to complete work related to the SOW if found during demo within 10% of our contract price without prior approval. This allows us to keep moving on work without constraint calls to clients. 

Our employees are never allowed to keep personal materials on the trucks. They all have access to supply houses and we always have young new employees who can run out to re-supply during the day. They also do not use personal tools other then there basic gear.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

welterweight said:


> no one answered this: if you were an installer, how would you feel if there were 2 pieces of siding left over on a 20 sq job so i refused to pay for a compete square. i payed for 19 1/2 sq ? or if you used 8 3/4 roll of aluminum and i only payed for 8 3/4 rather than 9 which i always do...you would feel as if you are being nickeled and dimed. so if you guys add up 1/4 roll of aluminum here, 2 pieces of siding there, thats adds up at the end of the year as well doesnt it? that could be more money in my pocket but i dont operate that way. how come its ok for the installer to charge for every small thing but i dont? look at it from that perspective.


You're sounding like a cry baby, penny pinching home owner. If you're a GC, you already know materials aren't sold in increments. Left overs are a PITA to haul away, store and bring to the next job, suppliers sell by the square, contractors sell by the square, homeowners and property owners buy by the square. Over estimating and 10% waste goes with the job. Would you like the leftovers placed on your lawn until the next job? :laughing:


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

welterweight said:


> no one answered this: if you were an installer, how would you feel if there were 2 pieces of siding left over on a 20 sq job so i refused to pay for a compete square. i payed for 19 1/2 sq ? or if you used 8 3/4 roll of aluminum and i only payed for 8 3/4 rather than 9 which i always do...you would feel as if you are being nickeled and dimed. so if you guys add up 1/4 roll of aluminum here, 2 pieces of siding there, thats adds up at the end of the year as well doesnt it? that could be more money in my pocket but i dont operate that way. how come its ok for the installer to charge for every small thing but i dont? look at it from that perspective.


I'd quote it by the foot, not roll of material. Square price would be agreed upon before they started. If it goes a few panel over I already have those on the job. I might even have an extra box or more, but they would get paid for the wall measurements only.

I do understand your point of view, but it seems like these are things that should be figured out and a SOP made up to deal with them. A good installer is actually hard to find. Try a few others out and you'll see.

The reason the installer charges for every small thing is that he expects that you are as well. Any good salesman does. If you don't want to charge a HO for something, that is your choice. However, you are the one who needs to pay for it, not the guy doing the work. It isn't his job to do or pay for your customer service.

If it is consistently a matter of a few nails or screws, just get a box together for him and tell him it is to be used when he needs it, on your jobs only. Throw in an extra tape or a nice hammer as a gift and let him continue doing the great job you say he is doing.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Still have no idea if this guy is a sub or an employee. 

Wonder why the OP won't say.


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

I think that the installer is trying to send you a message.


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## welterweight (Nov 10, 2009)

i am a very straight up guy and very generous as well and probably why my 2 main install teams have been with me for almost 8 years, i am not cheap and dont expect my workers to be so. we are supposed to be a team and thats my feeling. i am actually talking to him about this tonight. he wants to keep penny pinching, he can do it with someone else,not me. i just dont work that way.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

welterweight said:


> i am a very straight up guy and very generous as well and probably why my 2 main install teams have been with me for almost 8 years, i am not cheap and dont expect my workers to be so. we are supposed to be a team and thats my feeling. i am actually talking to him about this tonight. he wants to keep penny pinching, he can do it with someone else,not me. i just dont work that way.


WW.... I'm sure you are, but I think you've got your panties in a bunch over nothing. In my opinion, I think you're looking at this as a forrest and trees thing. All you're loking at are each individual tree and not seeing the forrest at all.

If the guy was telling you that you're a square of material short, or.... if you're like most of us and the job specs out at 24.33 squares and you send out 26 square to keep it at full boxes (just to be sure there is enough and to leave a piece or two for the homeowner), knowing full well you'll likely have a square to return.... but get a bill from the installer for the full 26 squares, what would you think? First time, you made a mistake. Second and third times? You'd begin to wonder.

Now an honest installer will only charge you for what he puts on and will leave every single piece of what he doesn't. But, if you start making him supply your jobs with his materials AND labor out of his own pocket, That 24.33 square job will turn in to 26 REALLY quick. That extra material will disappear or end up as "waste."

Now, you've got a distrustful situation that will lead you no where. Just pay the guy for his overages that he takes out of his own pocket so it doesn't come to that.

Why is that so hard to do?


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Follow up.... on coil work, we pay by the foot or the task ie; fascia board, frieze board, single window wrap, garage door wrap etc., not the roll (why would you pay by the roll?) and any left over coil is mine.


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## welterweight (Nov 10, 2009)

complete window and door,
i hear you, you make some very good points. i appreciate the feedback my friend.
welterweight


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

welterweight said:


> no one answered this: if you were an installer, how would you feel if there were 2 pieces of siding left over on a 20 sq job so i refused to pay for a compete square.


When are you going to answer the question about sub vs employee?

To answer your question, I'd feel you were a cheapskate. But *it doesn't work the same way in both directions*.

You're the moneybags, he's the little guy. It's normal and expected that the higher on the chain you are, the more you "owe" a perq or three to the guys below you who are holding up your ladder (to mix a metaphor). Not the other way around. :no:


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

welterweight said:


> complete window and door,
> i hear you, you make some very good points. i appreciate the feedback my friend.
> welterweight


Thank you.... I don't mean to be "hard" on you. But I've been in those situations where the installers, the sales guys and the company all point fingers at each other and scream they are getting $crewed. No one trusts anyone. That's just not a fun situation to be in. 

When I started my company, my partner and I are of the belief and made the decision that you pay your installers and don't question them when they say they had to do something extra. In fact, like I said earlier.... mine have marching orders to do whatever is necessary to make the install as good as it can possibly be. Even if something is not covered on the work order. They do those "extra" things (not Homeowner requested extras of course), with confidence that they will get paid for the extra work.

What that does, is keep the job flowing smoothly and the HO confidence high. Plus, it makes you look good in the customer's eyes as well. The installers don't have to call and "get permission" to do something that turns out is necessary for a good install.... which puts the installer in a questionable light as if you don't "trust" him to do what's necessary.

It's a perception thing I guess.

Or even worse, on the flip side.... you miss something in the scope of the project, the installer knows he's not getting paid for an extra (or will have to fight for his money if he does).... so he chooses not to do anything. 

Now, you've got a call back three or four years down the road because the rotted sill that didn't get replaced and got covered with coil and continued to rot until the coil finally falls off. What do you tell the HO now? Oops, we should have replaced that three years ago. So sorry. You replace it at no charge (not even considering the half a day of payroll, gasoline to go pick up a brand new roll of coil, the cost of the coil and caulk etc) and you fix it. 

Now you've spent five or six times what you would have paid the guy originally and you've got coil that doesn't match exactly (because of fade) and a HO left wondering "how many more sills/brickmold are rotted under the coil stock that they missed the first time?"

All of that over an extra $20 up front to replace a rotted sill. See my point? Like someone already said.... the guy is doing you a FAVOR by taking care of these things on his own. You should not only pay him for it.... but THANK him as well.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Can I chime in?

I read in a post where you say you are a good business man. Okay. Let us assume this is true because we have no reason not to doubt you. 

You have two real simple choices:
1 - pay the change orders & be grateful he isn't spending the time to call you, to interrupt what you are doing in your busy day so you can drop everything and bring one sheet of plywood for him to fix something

and

2 - Fire him and bring on a new sub.

This is a lot of stress over a few dollars a job. It is not HIS fault that YOU don't then charge the homeowner after he charges you.

My guys are all hourly but will on occasion need something that just doesn't make sense to run to our supplier. They go and buy it, give me the receipt and they get a reimbursement check along with their regular paycheck.

It truly isn't that hard. If you measure a roof at 30 sq and have three square left over, do you credit the homeowners bill?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I totally agree with Bam.
Sounds like a lot of this has to do with the jobs not being supplied correctly in the first place.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Warren said:


> I totally agree with Bam.
> Sounds like a lot of this has to do with the jobs not being supplied correctly in the first place.


Good point. At first I measured really tight because to return items is a waste of time. Then I realized that getting a phone call right before an appointment of something that is needed right away is an even bigger waste of time and money.

Now due to the volume I purchase, my supplier will pick up and return any extras at no charge whatsoever. It isn't uncommon for me to have a few square left over and rolls of felt/iw/tyvek or whatever.

I always explain to the HO that I order WAY to much of everything because it costs me too much time & money to be short items.

Moral of the story - Order heavy material wise but you STILL have to pay the man for the labor of repairing something that needed to be done.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

Sounds like he is not charging enough if you are missing things like that . Why should he pay for your mistakes and what you missed on the bid.


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## welterweight (Nov 10, 2009)

Warren said:


> I totally agree with Bam.
> Sounds like a lot of this has to do with the jobs not being supplied correctly in the first place.


wrong warren. every job gets 3 sheets of plywood just in case. my real beef isnt with him using his material, i just made an example about him using his nails and asking for 25 bucks after i gave him so much work . i also get pissed when he changes a piece of plywood and asks for smal change.. we are a team. he knows the drill. he gets paid for changing pywood if it exceeds 3 pieces, same with fascia board. although fascia is more than 2 is exceeded.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I am on the side of the people who think $25 is cheap and it would cost you much more than that to deal with the improperly stocked jobs. You should give him $50 next time and thank him for giving a chit because most guys would just call you and make it your problem.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

Sounds like someone one the team is not doing his part.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

This whole conversation is pretty much meaningless until we find out if the "worker" is an employee, or a sub-contractor. 

If it's a sub, then what is specified in the contract?


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

welterweight said:


> wrong warren. every job gets 3 sheets of plywood just in case. my real beef isnt with him using his material, i just made an example about him using his nails and asking for 25 bucks after i gave him so much work . i also get pissed when he changes a piece of plywood and asks for smal change.. we are a team. he knows the drill. he gets paid for changing pywood if it exceeds 3 pieces, same with fascia board. although fascia is more than 2 is exceeded.


If the job is supplied so well then why is he using his materials? Also what is the difference between small change and real money? If you have 5000.00 then 500.00 is small change. If you only have 500.00 500.00 is big money. Maybe you should look at this from a different point of view? And is he a sub or an employee?


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Also the "team" reference is bull**** unless you share the same risk for the same reward. I doubt this is your partner so there is no team. there is a GC and a sub or an employee. Way different than a team.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

welterweight said:


> wrong warren. every job gets 3 sheets of plywood just in case. my real beef isnt with him using his material, *i just made an example about him using his nails and asking for 25 bucks after i gave him so much work* . i also get pissed when he changes a piece of plywood and asks for smal change.. we are a team. he knows the drill. he gets paid for changing pywood if it exceeds 3 pieces, same with fascia board. although fascia is more than 2 is exceeded.


As far as I'm concerned this it it in a nutshell. This is the reverse case of the guys that complain about not getting paid by the client who has more money than the catholic church. 

You are not giving him work, as in not getting something out of it. You are making a fair exchange and both are receiving something of value. If you didn't feel you were than you'd have already parted ways. So how much you "give" him has no bearing on the fact that he wants to be treated fairly.

If his work is well enough that you want to keep using him and this nit picky idea bothers you enough, prove what a good businessman you are and add a few bucks to the job to cover it. You seem to know it's coming. Mark it up, add enough to cover your time griping about it and enjoy your bonus.

Or, as Bam says, get another. Something about the devil you know comes to mind though.

Good Luck
Dave


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Will you please just tell us if he is an employee or a sub?? Please? The suspense is killing me......:whistling


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## thecabinetguy (Jun 4, 2012)

Jaws said:


> I am not following on many different levels....
> 
> It's always more annoying when it's happening to you. Lol. A lot of times it is the little things and the context that drive people crazy. I deal with some people that just annoy the chit out of me,
> Over little things like that and many other things.


I cannot agree more. One guy I would gladly be agreeing to all the nickle and diming, another, just based on the way he approached me would drive me crazy. Hate to admit it, but sometimes that's just how it is!

But on the other end, it adds up when you start putting in your own dime. Seems little at first, but the guy probably added it up and realized it was worth the effort asking...


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## mnjconstruction (Oct 5, 2008)

I dont sub much out, but when I do, I make sure that all the material is there. If I were to sub out a roof, there would be plenty of ridge vent, nails, paper, shingles, etc. 

If i figure on needing 2 boxes of nails, I get three! and that goes for all other materials too. I hate running for just a couple things. After the job is done either keep it for stock or return it!


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

When you short the job no matieral you arr costing him money.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Anyone working for me is paid hourly, if they offer their own materials that i do not have then we make an agreement of payment before it is used. If someone uses their own without asking i most often replace what they used with the same material or an agreed payment. I most often choose not to use their materials unless i have no choice or it is free. Too much hassle of who's is who's and what it is worth.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I don't know exactly how it works in the siding world but this guy is a siding salesman/supplier. He supplies and the sub installs. He's not a GC, he sells supply and install to homeowners and GC's. And they most certainly are a team. Many of the siders i know work 95% for one supplier

As a sub I can understand where both sides are concerned. Sometimes I'm just itching to install and make money but little things are holding me back. At these times I want to charge. other times a GC I do a lot of work for won't have the house wrap up. It's there but I put it up at the same time I'm putting up flashing. Probably adds 15mins to my day. i think it would be ridiculous to charge for that. If that happened on every job though I'd be adding it into my sqft price.

My suggestion. Tell the guy to add $50 to every bill and don't put it on the invoice or call it misc. he gets his money, sometimes more sometimes less, and you don't have to see these little charges.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

I sub alot. Post #12 by Complete is the way we do business. I don't mind supplying some material-at times. It save you and me both. Me in time wasted and you in time completed. A few bucks, I don't mind. But hey, my bottom line is as important as yours. Is it better to have an installer that completes the job and with great craftsmanship or do you want a guy stopping because you didn't supply enough material. You look better when he completes the work in a timely manner. 

Perhaps you should ask him to supply an estimate of materials to see who is closer to reality.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Easiest way to avoid being billed for the nickels and dimes is to spend them yourself. If you think he is penny pinching for wanting to get paid for using his material, stop penny pinching yourself and make sure adequate supplies are on the job. Just make sure to inform him that if he removes your leftover material from the job, he will be charged accordingly, possibly criminally.......or you could just pay him for his material.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

welterweight said:


> wrong warren. every job gets 3 sheets of plywood just in case. my real beef isnt with him using his material, i just made an example about him using his nails and asking for 25 bucks after i gave him so much work . i also get pissed when he changes a piece of plywood and asks for smal change.. we are a team. he knows the drill. he gets paid for changing pywood if it exceeds 3 pieces, same with fascia board. although fascia is more than 2 is exceeded.


I've met the white, patent pleather shoe, paper contractors. They show up to get the checks in their new diesel duallies and send out their flunky teams to do the actual work. 
Have you ever tried to replace a sheet of plywood shear panel or roof diaphram (nailed 8d every 6" of the perimeter and every 12" in the field)? 
That is approx. 132 nails to pull, then handle that away, grab a full sheet, resheet with the same nailing pattern onto those overnailed studs or rafters. 
Somebody is getting screwed at those terms. I'd be looking at Change Orders for 1, 2 or 3 sheets, more than that is big $$$.
Facia, hanging off a ladder sideways with a 24' 2x8 in one hand is not a freebe either. 
Your guys are doing the work for free but the home owner is paying you through the nose for add ons. Lucky Bux for you? 
Your teams need to revolt.


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

If he just does the work and you supply materials..on you.

If he is subcontracting with you, and the conditions on contract are that he supplies materials and labor..on him


Kind of seems like you think people owe you something because you give them work. But they are making you money(hopefully anyway). Things happen in this business, its on the owner/contractor to account for them. Me, id reimburse..guy gets the job done, does good work. You are really just nickle and diming yourself. Easy fix-Put more in the bid, just assume you need an extra 20 or 30. Win win. Quit whining about it.

Guy that you can rely on, does the work right..thats worth something. You have a relationship with your employees just as you do your clients. Sometimes in life the small things you do to keep fair are remembered by those when YOU are in a time of need. Just some small advice, .02.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

welterweight said:


> . he gets paid for changing pywood if it exceeds 3 pieces, same with fascia board. although fascia is more than 2 is exceeded.


doing it this way will insure he never changes under 3 sheets of ply..whether it needs it or not:whistling

just pay him and be glad he is looking out for you:thumbsup:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I am on the side of the people who think $25 is cheap and it would cost you much more than that to deal with the improperly stocked jobs. You should give him $50 next time and thank him for giving a chit because most guys would just call you and make it your problem.


Tom, thats what he said..


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

yea..thanks


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

So no answer on if they are an employee or a sub...I say it's a Home Owner bitchin bout nickels and dimes...


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

WW, how would you feel if on every job, your supplier just shorted your order a box of nails, or a roll of paper, or some ridge vent, or whatever they happened to miss on the order- and expected you to go buy it and add it to their delivery? On your dollar, of course.

After all they're a great supplier, and they provide superior materials. And they do give you excellent pricing on all the rest of your materials. And they're very dependable - your materials always show up to the customer location on time..... And remember, supplying those missed things on "your dime" just makes you a valuable part of the "team" in THEIR eyes!

......Bet your perspective of nickels, dimes & teams would be significantly different. Really fast. I also bet it wouldn't take you 8 years to realize the way they were jerking your chain, all the while yapping about what an awesome supplier they were!

1.) Pay the man. 

2.) Quit whining. There are things that actually deserve your attention. THIS is NOT one of them.

3.) Re-evaluate how highly you think of yourself. You are not Mr Wonderful. You are not the ultimate guy to work for, no matter how much you pay or work you offer. You just showed your true colors with this little stink bomb. Learn from it & try to BECOME the ultimate guy to work for......

Best wishes in resolving things.

And answer that pesky thing of sub vs employee, will 'ya?......


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

As a rule, someone bitching about nickels and dimes is the same guy who is pinching them.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

svronthmve said:


> And answer that pesky thing of sub vs employee, will 'ya?......


:whistling:whistling:whistling:whistling:whistling:whistling


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

summithomeinc said:


> :whistling:whistling:whistling:whistling:whistling:whistling


Who cares. Either way its not cool


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Learn how to supply your job with materials and your problems are all over:thumbup: Just think No problems:whistling


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Who cares. Either way its not cool


You're right. I suppose the OP not answering the question is an answer in itself.


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## fourcornerhome (Feb 19, 2008)

Probably doen't know the answer. I bet both. hourly pay and 1099'ed,no bennies.


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## stinky (Jul 6, 2012)

Personally I would not expect any of my guys to provide their own materials.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I told all my guys they better bring their own materials for the job on Monday. Hope they show up!


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

I would make them buy my lunch also


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

This is the perfect thread to illustrate that _"You can lead a horse to water..."_


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

fourcornerhome said:


> Probably doen't know the answer. I bet both. hourly pay and 1099'ed,no bennies.




DING,DING,DING,DING!!!!!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!

my opinion also


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## hippie (Aug 22, 2011)

Stephen H said:


> DING,DING,DING,DING!!!!!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!
> 
> my opinion also


The subject of the thread and the lack of an answer makes this pretty clear.. Hopefully the guy wont let himself be screwed any more than he already is and will walk when he doesn't get paid for that next box of nails.. And hopefully the op will learn something about treating people fairly and pay the next guy, after the hassle of finding someone of the same quality to replace him


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

no, no welterweight is legit,just a little grumpy lately?:whistling


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## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)




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## Bowtechian (May 18, 2012)

Sounds like your a TEAM nazi. Just don't see the term team, working in this situation. Did you see the rotten sill? Did you have in your bid to fix a rotten sill or did he bid the job? I don't see how there should be a term nickel and diming anyway,especially if it is legit. So many Questions


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

:blink:hey easy with the nazi stuff

the op operates a legitimate business,you would know that if you been here a few years

i suggest we ease up a tad:drink:


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

welterweight said:


> i have a guy i use for roofing , he also does some siding as well. he is very good and i am happy with his work except one thing; he nickel and dimes me for everything.
> example, the other day i payed him and he tells me he had to use a roll of his own ridge vent and a box of his nails.. now, i have other crews who wouldnt even mention this to me. i give this guy so much work and feel if he uses some of his own material ( within reason) why even bring it up to me. believe me, its not the money, its the nickel and diming.
> if he gets a 30 sq siding job and has to replace a sheet of plywood he wants to be paid. if he changes a small amount of rotted window trim, he asks for 25 bucks.. i pay thks guy well and give him alot of work as i said so i feel little extra things should be par for the course. now i have a built up animosity towards the guy. i want to talk to him and tell him if he intends to be part of my crew, i dont want to hear about him using his own nails or having to use some of his own felt paper. remember, im not talking about alot of material.
> am i wrong here?


Lay it all out…..

How much did you pay him for the last job? 
How much did you make off that job?
How much money did he make per day?
Did he need supervision from your employees?
Does he have a license and insurance?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Tom Struble said:


> :blink:hey easy with the nazi stuff
> 
> the op operates a legitimate business,you would know that if you been here a few years
> 
> ...


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## Bowtechian (May 18, 2012)

Ok maybe not nazi. But the team thing ,really. Does it really matter how many years you Know someone on the internet, I don't think you really know him, unless he did sub that job to you.:shifty: :laughing:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

nails are expensive!


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