# Can you believe this guy?



## Precision10 (Apr 6, 2010)

This is a letter i got from one of the GC's i work for. I got it after all the work was completed. Gc thinks I should just "add on to other jobs to make up the $3100" He didn't even have the balls to call me!! $5900 for site clearing, basement excavation,backfill and septic. Your comments will be appreciated. Letter is below

Our base bid numbers for the *** job do not correspond. The allowance for site work is much less than you billed us for. In haste late last summer I attached allowances to all of the categories for the *** job based on other people's bids, past jobs and sq. ft. pricing. We needed to lock the job down for fear of having nothing to do this winter. So I used very low allowance numbers to make that happen. I needed to align our pricing with Zxx and Pxx who are always coming in less and never bid anything out. They sq. ft. price a house and make it work from there.
This is not a "you take less so bxx makes more" scenario. I am doing this job at slightly over cost...mainly to keep the secretary and the crew working. So I feel the pinch as bad as all of the sub-contractors...maybe even worse. where I used to make 10-12% on every house I am now down to 2-4% it is almost not worth it.
Bottom line for *** site work:
$5,900.00 
That is $3,100.00 short of what you are asking for. That is a big hit. We should always make sure we are working off the same numbers before we start a job. Although I know due to lack of work we were in a hurry to get started. I know I could have got the job done for that based on Ken A's bid and whoever that excavator is that does all the work for *** in that neighborhood. I was willing to give your work away to get it done for that price....we had to get this house. Just the way it is.
Anyway, I do apologize for the shock factor and not making sure we both knew the parameters before you started. It seem like there was some money made up in the change orders....If you knew this from the beginning you may have been able to make even more of it up.
GOOD NEWS:
She is going to be doing some kind of driveway, adding topsoil, and wants to change the grade of here back yard even more to make the deck/landscaping work out different. Hopefully some of those change orders can be used to make up some of the difference.
The secretary sent you a check for everything you billed, including the change orders, minus $3,100.00
I can be available anytime to go over this with you further.
Thanks


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## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

all I can say is... WOW


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Some guys have some big [email protected] . Lay the smack down on him .:boxing:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Wow. What a scumbag. **** him. I'd be getting my 3100$


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Ouch, Id say NO! That guy has some huge balls. I got almost the identical email last summer. Made me mad, threatened all kinds of things, and at the end of the day I didnt get the cash. Good luck.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

"I would of given your work away???" Wtf. Douche bag.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

skillman said:



> Some guys have some big [email protected] . Lay the smack down on him .:boxing:


Thats the easy answer when its not you. In the real world violence only compounds the issue.


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Thats the easy answer when its not you. In the real world violence only compounds the issue.


Its a joke .


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

skillman said:


> Its a joke .


I know, but getting screwed sucks, and the thought of violence is enticing during times of pain. 

The best thing you can do is negotiate as much as possible from him and find builders who run legitimate businesses.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

skillman said:


> Its a joke .


Delete.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I know, but getting screwed sucks, and the thought of violence is enticing during times of pain.
> 
> The best thing you can do is negotiate as much as possible from him and find builders who run legitimate businesses.[/QUote)
> 
> Delete


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

"Quote Deleted by staff"

Yeah, there are a few crimes inside that little outburst. Glad it worked for you.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Just send a lien. Get a billboard and write "GC doesnt pay his bills and owes me $3100"


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

But at the end of the day how much more time/money do you waste chasing your tail. Bad mouth as needed but I wouldn't go too far out of my way. I am at the city office a few times a week and filing a lien is perfectly legal and not too much of a hassle either.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Yeah, there are a few crimes inside that little outburst. Glad it worked for you.


Delete


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

What BamBam and Ohio said. I'm tired and pissed off and felt 18. Glad I'm not.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

jawtrs said:


> Yeah, that is what is sad. I'm a criminal for making this guy pay me for LABOR I did for him. My old man said the same thing when I thought about jacking his welder to get the rest of my wages, Im glad I didn't.
> 
> Pretty sad when a VERY honest man is thought of as a criminal for truing to be paid 9$ an hour for labor he did a great job at.


Thats the truth. People who disregard the law almost always have the upper hand. It sucks but it is so much harder to be good than bad, and great than good. Being great means taking the high road even when it seems implausible. In the end the good guys always win.


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

I actually got the pretty much same kind of letter from a GC that we have been working for the last 21 yrs. He was crying that he is not making any money and working at a smaller % for profit and he has a house that someone else came in cheaper on and is willing to use other subs to get the job, blah blah blah. Unfortunately, we got the letter before we did the job. We gave him a price and made up for it on extras.

It is amazing how these GC's claim poverty, yet drive around in fancy cars and pick-ups and go on vacations and other countries on hunting trips yets us blokes are working 7 days a week turning wrenches on tired iron and driving around in older pick-ups with rust pockets.

My cousin builds houses and he says that he does not make much money on the houses and sometimes he barely breaks even. He has a brand new Dodge diesel dually pick-up, a Dodge Viper, his wife has a brand new Dodge and they have a huge motor home. 

The GC that gave us the letter just sold his home for $1.3 million and is building another one a little smaller. He owns another home in Wyoming that he bought so that him and his wife has a place to stay when they fly out to visit the grandkids. Oh, he also owns (2) lots in the Virgin Islands.

Never believe a word that comes out of a home builder's mouth when they are claiming poverty.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

He wouldn't give you that line of $hi7 if you had a contract in writing.


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## skcolo (May 16, 2009)

Once again we are back to the contract conversation. I am guessing there wasn't one. I have always been a handshake kinda guy. I would pay the money even if I had to take it from my savings account if that's what we agreed on. But I have also been on the other side where a sub tried to burn me by charging more than we agreed on.

Maybe there is some kind of middle ground. I would say either cut your losses some and make a deal, or lien the property. Maybe the threat of a lien and the repercussions from having to deal with the owner and explain why there is a lien will wake the clown up.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Correct me if i am wrong here but you stated $5900 for site clearing, basement excavation,backfill and septic????? I do not know that much about your line of work but owning my own mini-ex and doing some work in your field i learned quick how to price jobs and i have to say it sounds to me you work for a cheap price already. I would be telling this guy to pay up or file a lien against the home. Just because he cannot price a job properly does not mean you have to eat it, that is his problem.


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## Precision10 (Apr 6, 2010)

The price was 9100 for all work. GC decided to cut out 3100. I only got paid 5900.


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## peteo (Jan 8, 2011)

Not trying to sound like a know it all or a jerk or anything but $9100 seems awfully cheap for all of that. The septic alone should have cost more than that, or at least it does around here. 

As far as the GC keeping your money....That's bs. It's too bad that's what business is turning into these days. I realize there are plenty of good honest people to work for out there but a$$holes like this are becoming more prevalent. Good luck getting your money. I hope it works out for you.


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## JDavis21835 (Feb 27, 2009)

peteo said:


> Not trying to sound like a know it all or a jerk or anything but $9100 seems awfully cheap for all of that. The septic alone should have cost more than that, or at least it does around here.


Not sure what its like around your area, but the septic systems in this area are around 500lft of pipe, 45/50 tons of stone, and a tank. Most of the ground is sand, so it percs no problem. What I remember of this area of MI, there are a lot of guys with a few pieces of iron, and a lot of them are willing to cut each others throats to work for nothing.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

jmacd said:


> I can tell a few stories here about more than one GC that blatantly didn't pay. The post would be to long and just end up getting my blood pressure up for no reason.
> 
> I will say this,
> I have yet to get any money from a GC that just didn't want to pay. Even with liens, contracts, calls to the bonding company, architect and any thing else you can think that is _legal._
> ...


I know a builder, that if the customer refuses to pay $5000 or less, he won't take it to court to get the money. His reasoning is that a lawyer will cost that much to start the case, and even if he won, he still has to collect.


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## peteo (Jan 8, 2011)

Yeah that would make a huge difference. Up here everything is mostly clay and rock. You have to import somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 ton of stone and 80 ton of septic sand. Plus pipe and uv lights and all the other stuff that goes with it. It's a big PITA which is why I haven't done any in years. Don't miss them at all.


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## Upchuck (Apr 7, 2009)

peteo said:


> Yeah that would make a huge difference. Up here everything is mostly clay and rock. You have to import somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 ton of stone and 80 ton of septic sand. Plus pipe and uv lights and all the other stuff that goes with it. It's a big PITA which is why I haven't done any in years. Don't miss them at all.


uv lights?


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## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

Upchuck said:


> uv lights?


What, you've never noticed how "tan" most turds are? Of course they need UV lights in order to stay lookin so good!!!:laughing: 

On a serious note, though, I imagine the UV light is to kill all bacteria, etc. in the water before it enters the drain field. Not sure if I'm right or where they physically put the lights, but that is my guess.


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## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

In regards to the OP, it has been my experience that many people treat life a bit like poker. If they can bluff you into thinking they are serious, then they will let you leave your money on the table. More simply put, we assume everyone is honest if we ourselves are honest. If one can convince themselves that "business" is like poker, then sending letters such as the one posted becomes nothing more than a bluff. I say call the guys bluff by blowing his letter off as though he is joking. Simply reply that you expect payment in full by "X" with confidence thereby diminishing his efforts to pretend as though he has already won the "game". The less you say the better in my opinion. The facts are the facts, so he needs to lay his cards down on the table and fork over the chips he owes you. Game Over!!!:thumbsup:


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

cexcavation said:


> In regards to the OP, it has been my experience that many people treat life a bit like poker. If they can bluff you into thinking they are serious, then they will let you leave your money on the table. More simply put, we assume everyone is honest if we ourselves are honest. If one can convince themselves that "business" is like poker, then sending letters such as the one posted becomes nothing more than a bluff. I say call the guys bluff by blowing his letter off as though he is joking. Simply reply that you expect payment in full by "X" with confidence thereby diminishing his efforts to pretend as though he has already won the "game". The less you say the better in my opinion. The facts are the facts, so he needs to lay his cards down on the table and fork over the chips he owes you. Game Over!!!:thumbsup:


Thats a good way to look at it. And it makes alot of sense, now that I remember people doing that to me. Thanks for this insight.:thumbsup:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Precision10,

*"I was willing to give your work away to get it done for that price....we had to get this house. Just the way it is."*

That about sums it up, doesn't it? Unfortunately for him, that's not your problem. In fact, I'm not a lawyer, but the way he worded that sounds to me like a "theft of services" scenario. He admitted he KNEW going in he was screwing you for his own benefit... that is a thief, not a businessman...

If you bid the job, he accepted to get the work done, and you have a contract for same, he is SOL... lien immediately, THEN send him a letter informing him the house has already has a lien, and that notification is being sent to the homeowner and the ONLY resolution you will accept to remove it is full payment. "Just the way it is"... Feel free to give him a call before mailing the HO notification and tell him it is on the the way unless he has a check for you...

He is trying to make his problem yours... only you can LET him do that...


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## Upchuck (Apr 7, 2009)

cexcavation said:


> What, you've never noticed how "tan" most turds are? Of course they need UV lights in order to stay lookin so good!!!:laughing:
> 
> On a serious note, though, I imagine the UV light is to kill all bacteria, etc. in the water before it enters the drain field. Not sure if I'm right or where they physically put the lights, but that is my guess.


You learn something new everyday. Here I thought that Mass. had cornered the market on craziness & over designing things.


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## peteo (Jan 8, 2011)

cexcavation said:


> What, you've never noticed how "tan" most turds are? Of course they need UV lights in order to stay lookin so good!!!:laughing:
> 
> On a serious note, though, I imagine the UV light is to kill all bacteria, etc. in the water before it enters the drain field. Not sure if I'm right or where they physically put the lights, but that is my guess.


Uv light goes after the drain field on the discharge line. Yes it is to kill bacteria before the water is dumped into either a stream or drainage ditch.


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## Upchuck (Apr 7, 2009)

peteo said:


> Uv light goes after the drain field on the discharge line. Yes it is to kill bacteria before the water is dumped into either a stream or drainage ditch.


You can discharge septic after it goes through drain field into stream or drainage ditch because of uv lights. I know they won't allow us to do that in Mass.


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## peteo (Jan 8, 2011)

Yup. The uv light kills all the bacteria so the epa says its basically like adding "clean" water to streams and ditches. I'm not so sure about it but people smarter than me say its ok so who am I to argue? I don't do them anymore and if someone asks me to I bid it so high that I won't get it. On the off chance I do get one I'll have enough into the bid that I can pay someone else to do it. I hate septic work.


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## Upchuck (Apr 7, 2009)

peteo said:


> Yup. The uv light kills all the bacteria so the epa says its basically like adding "clean" water to streams and ditches. I'm not so sure about it but people smarter than me say its ok so who am I to argue? I don't do them anymore and if someone asks me to I bid it so high that I won't get it. On the off chance I do get one I'll have enough into the bid that I can pay someone else to do it. I hate septic work.


I don't mind septic work. I prefer new systems to repairing existing ones. Either is hard to get the way guys are pricing in our area.


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## Mrmac204 (Dec 27, 2006)

can you show up to the site and park your largest machine in the driveway? accidentally blocking all other machines/work that is going on


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