# Basement. Need help choosing thinset.



## omegatilemass (Oct 2, 2015)

Hi.
A little background .
I sub from a big tile installation company in Mass and Im very familiar with laticrete products ( 254, 253, 209, hydroban, stratamat etc ) since they provide the materials.
I am slowly getting my own jobs and I will be installing 700 square feet of porcelain tile on a basement floor and Im looking for a not expensive thinset for the project. What about the mapei brand? Open to other options.
The project consists in installing strata mat, heated mat, self leveler and tile.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

If you are subbing, why don't you have a horde? just curious? 253 is the same area as Tec Full Flex, Mapei Ultraflex 2, Custom who cares I don't use their products. I use Full Flex or 3n1 for my sets


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

you might consider adding an insulated layer over the slab to make the floor wire more efficient.


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## omegatilemass (Oct 2, 2015)

olzo55 said:


> you might consider adding an insulated layer over the slab to make the floor wire more efficient.


Please could you explain a little more about this insulated layer?

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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

After the strata goes in , install 1/4 backer around the perimeter and everywhere that doesn't get heat by thinsettimg it and weighting it down . then prime, installed the system , than the self leveler if you have to go that route . the self leveler may crack, so be mindful and make sure its OK to use over strata....I 've eaten that and a heating system before . the backer will help you establish control of elevation, and it can be put in random places as a screed guide. I'm not a fan of self leveler , but have used it a good bit . I'd prefer schluters mat and cable for this job all the way.


On the the thinset , it depends on the tile size and trowel. Dap d40 was an incredible product for the money at one time .


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

I'd highly recommend a training course by schluter and Mapei, some theory on the products to choose and why. 

It's hard enough to get the whole system right without trying to save a few dollars. Self leveler needs expansion around perimeter. Then you need to bond to it with thinset, I always have to grind my leveler, but I usually screed it so that leaves lines,humps. It takes off the top, which I think is weak, leaves a good scratch pattern to bond to.

Get the Mapei, Ardex, all the Apps on your mobile, contact tech support, you have systems you're integrating. 

Just FYI self levelers(almost all) do not like long term moisture, it disintegrates, so say a basement didn't have a moisture barrier or breached, that leveler will fail.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

AGullion said:


> After the strata goes in , install 1/4 backer around the perimeter and everywhere that doesn't get heat by thinsettimg it and weighting it down . then prime, installed the system , than the self leveler if you have to go that route . the self leveler may crack, so be mindful and make sure its OK to use over strata....I 've eaten that and a heating system before . the backer will help you establish control of elevation, and it can be put in random places as a screed guide. I'm not a fan of self leveler , but have used it a good bit . I'd prefer schluters mat and cable for this job all the way.
> 
> 
> On the the thinset , it depends on the tile size and trowel. Dap d40 was an incredible product for the money at one time .


Ditra Heat is the way to go. Huge cost savings. Leveler for that size area would cost a lot in dollars and time. You should check your floor for humps and low spots.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

What isolation do these mats need to direct the heat from heating earth instead of heating room? Or are these mats responsible for global warming? I briefly saw some styrofoam in concrete construction magazine but didn't read the article.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Mike,
1/4" cork can be used as an insulator. Cork sheets lay flatter than the rolls. High quality thinset to secure to floor.There are some foam products , too. I'll check on the product names. 

I used roll cork on a small 50sqft bath. (See current "floor warming wire break" in electrical section.) A couple areas sound hollow though the tile and grout are well attached. The cork roll has "memory" and even though weighted down, must not have stayed flat while drying. Also, note that cork spec needs epoxy grout. 

But the space under Ditra Heat provides separation from the floor which helps keep the heat where you want it.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

Thanks Olzo, I hear Cork is a tricky animal, you're spot on of what I heard from a cork specialist. She says moisture is not good for cork. I had some questions about installing it, I have 11 - 100 sq ft rolls, I think she recommended water based contact cement because the solvent based dissolves? It. I would probably end up using urethane but going to sell it. She said to flatten, some guys steam it flat, while others throw away, about 10% of the roll.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Mike A is one to listen to on here . I can tell he's been around .


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

I just try to be cautious, stay informed, I hear a lot of failures, learn why, avoid if possible, and I'm still falling behind, there's new stuff all the time, doesn't mean it works. Gets frustrating. Know each step, what product is capable of, follow install instructions and hope for the best. Ball all that up, try to make a living and have a life. 

I've had a rough week, trying to stay above water the next two.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Hang in there Mike . sometimes we are the hydrant and sometimes the dog.

I had a good day today , set a tub surround with niche and ceiling , and 55 foot floor with clipped corners, in 5 hours flat. 

The tough thing to me on today's tile technology, is sometimes the manufacturers don't even know what their products limitations are in some cases. 

This guys post concerns me, because it seems he's having to provide setting material, and he's wanting to go cheap. That is the same mentality that creates so many failures .


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

Nice! 

On a bigger job, behind the 8 ball.

Yup, I agree, I want quality materials that will assist, and accelerate our work. System integrity ought to be unquestionable as far as performance. These days, quality seems to be secondary, only hurting the contractor.

I learned a lot this morning from a coatings/polishing contractor, 3 years ago I saw him on a job, some equipment ok, some homeowner. Went to his shop and wow, he doubled his gross last two years, has about 400k in equipment,still adding. With what I saw 3 years ago and price he said he charges, I assumed he'd be doing poorly. The snapshot of that moment was deceptive, he's got it goin on. A few days ago I texted him to maybe run a scrubber on 10k ft, so he said stop by Sunday, he can rent me one. So now I would like to integrate work somehow,refer, he'll rent me equipment if I need.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

MIKE ANTONETTI said:


> Thanks Olzo, I hear Cork is a tricky animal, you're spot on of what I heard from a cork specialist. She says moisture is not good for cork. I had some questions about installing it, I have 11 - 100 sq ft rolls, I think she recommended water based contact cement because the solvent based dissolves? It. I would probably end up using urethane but going to sell it. She said to flatten, some guys steam it flat, while others throw away, about 10% of the roll.


That's too much messing around for me. That was my last cork install. Better products out there.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

I like your style!


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

We put it down with urethane wood adhesive all the time Mike. Flip the cuts over so they are rolling under instead of up. We typically install all of the cork one day and install on top of it the next, never an issue. I like using cork, great to work on, easy to install over with wood or tile.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

which do you use Paul, sheets or rolls?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

I've used both. The sheets stay flat and are easier to install imo. The only downside to them is they can skate across wet glue if you do a lot of walking on them. I try to work my way out of the room if possible. Glue can also ooze out of the joints on both, with the sheets there are more cross joints obviously.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

I've also seen it installed with sheet vinyl adhesive (water based) and it was stuck like Chuck. I still prefer urethane for added moisture mitigation. Sika T-21 or 55 is typically what we use.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

PrecisionFloors said:


> We put it down with urethane wood adhesive all the time Mike. Flip the cuts over so they are rolling under instead of up. We typically install all of the cork one day and install on top of it the next, never an issue. I like using cork, great to work on, easy to install over with wood or tile.


We use cork on about half of our highrise tile installs. Glue it down with Bostik's Best one day, tile the next. Rolls and sheets.

Edit:Usually WECU from WE Cork.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

What trowel you run for the cork Paul?

I guess we're just BS,n till the op posts another reply. I guess it depends a lot on how well you can set a tile, verse the quality of thinset, the worse you are the more sticky you need in general.

I couldn't pass the cork up at Lowes, made in Portugal, from .80 cent a foot to .30 cent, so I bought 4, then it went to .10 cent, 1 roll was 10$,I bought 7 more, but I haven't needed it and now want it gone, trying to get rid of stuff.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

CarpenterSFO said:


> We use cork on about half of our highrise tile installs. Glue it down with Bostik's Best one day, tile the next. Rolls and sheets.
> 
> Edit:Usually WECU from WE Cork.


For sound reduction, I presume. Does Ditra have any sound reduction properties?


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## omegatilemass (Oct 2, 2015)

I talked to the home owner today. 
I will be using Ditra Heat for the project.
Thanks for the help guys.


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## omegatilemass (Oct 2, 2015)

The project is scheduled to november. I will report back with some pics.
Thanks again for all the info.

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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Small square notch, Mike. I think it's a 3/16 iirc. Same as the Ditra trowel if you've seen those. I also roll it with a 75 pounder when laid and again at the end of the day. Seems to work pretty well.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

olzo55 said:


> .... Does Ditra have any sound reduction properties?


Though googling leads to an underlayment called Ditra Sound, I've never seen it. As far as I know regular Ditra doesn't have any special acoustic qualities, and it definitely doesn't have the ratings required by code or condo associations.

I also like the Probase underlayments, though I have had trouble getting them on short notice in the past.


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

Never heard of cork as an underlayment.
Just so I'm getting this straight... Concrete, adhesive, cork, thinset, then tile? What's the advantage of this? Just sounds crazy to me at first blush.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

aptpupil said:


> Never heard of cork as an underlayment.
> Just so I'm getting this straight... Concrete, adhesive, cork, thinset, then tile? What's the advantage of this? Just sounds crazy to me at first blush.


Or, concrete, adhesive, cork, thinset, ditra, thinset, tile.

The advantage in a highrise is reduced impact noise going through the floor. It's very effective. For the person in the space (so this applies to basements, too) it adds some microscopic resilience to the floor, enough to make the floor less fatiguing. If you're not perfect with all the layers, you can get a hollow/clacking effect.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Urethane s are crazy strong. Ever take wood up glued down with that?


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

I have a Ditra trowel Paul thanks. Free with schluters class.

Tile Mass, sounds like you're in charge to change Materials, Nice.

Yes, Urethane is crazy bonded, inspired me to get ride on scraper when we removed 30 square foot of hardwood in 4 hours, next day hired guy to do 970ft. And he was done in 4 hours!

Thinset grinding is another *****, the high quality stuff is extremely hard/solid. So I don't mind cheap thinset when removing.

Products are continually changing and new stuff comes out, it's hard to stay informed with the sound isolation and heating systems. I'd say every 3 years if you don't go to conventions/training your out of the loop, at a disadvantage.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

This was double post, can't clear it so I erased. When I went to training, for schluter and Mapei, the heat wasn't out yet, and Mapei was coming out with newer sound reduction membrane. The thin sets, there's new formulas, I was reading tile letter, some pool products are new, it's changing too fast.


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## jengebretson (Aug 16, 2012)

A little off topic, but Laticrete 125 mortar does a great job at sound reduction. Check it out. We did a demo of it and it was sweet. Crack isolation and sound reduction in one bag. Not the cheapest, but eliminates some steps.


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

Is that the one rubbery looking stuff at least 125$ a bag? I saw it at convention few years ago, I would use it.(small area)


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## jengebretson (Aug 16, 2012)

MIKE ANTONETTI said:


> Is that the one rubbery looking stuff at least 125$ a bag? I saw it at convention few years ago, I would use it.(small area)


That would be the stuff. It made the tiles sound dead when walked on with heels.


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