# rental handrail.



## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

Built some handrail for a rental today. Now before you look, the property is in a not so great part of town so my quality of workmenship isent my best work ever. 









Gonna take some trim and make it look all pretty tomorrow.

Be honest, what do you guys think


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Looks like a safety hazard and a code violation.


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## RAbraker (Jan 26, 2011)

Are you aware of the 4" spacing code requirement?


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## Elyrain (Dec 17, 2007)

he said handrail, not gaurdrail. That's what I would call it anyways. :whistling


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## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

Just doin what bossman told me to do. Not gonna argue with the man who pays me


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Carpenter eyes said:


> Just doin what bossman told me to do. Not gonna argue with the man who pays me


Be carefull Bossman doesn't tell you yo do something that could get you into trouble. Or someone hurt. There's a reason for 4" spacing.


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## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

I know of the 4 inch spaceing (if i rember right its gottq be smaller then a babys head. If the inspector fails it, its on him. I am not eating that one. Im just a peion


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

You mean like -

Tennants child falls through opening, down stairwell, becomes quadraplegic, sues contractor for 5 million dollars, wins lawsuit.

That kind of trouble?


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## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

Quick and cheap was his words when telling me to build


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Carpenter eyes said:


> If the inspector fails it, its on him.


Wrong, the building people assume no liability. It
's on the contractor and the landlord.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

katoman said:


> You mean like -
> 
> Tennants child falls through opening, down stairwell, becomes quadraplegic, sues contractor for 5 million dollars, wins lawsuit.
> 
> That kind of trouble?


Yeah Id say thats about the trouble they are looking for especially in said bad part of town.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

katoman said:


> You mean like -
> 
> Tennants child falls through opening, down stairwell, becomes quadraplegic, sues contractor for 5 million dollars, wins lawsuit.
> 
> That kind of trouble?


Yes that kind.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I don't see a handrail in that picture, merely an improperly built safety hazard pretending to be a guardrail.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Carpenter eyes - To be serious for a moment, when the boss tells you to do something that you know, or should know, is illegal, you're supposed to speak up.

Next time tell him " I'd love to build this, but it needs to be legal". 

As the carpenter who's hands did the work, you are the last defense for the tenant. If you won't make it legal, who will?

Don't forget the tenant may not know any better, and let's her 2yr old crawl along the floors. Then what?


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Carpenter eyes said:


> I know of the 4 inch spaceing (if i rember right its gottq be smaller then a babys head. If the inspector fails it, its on him. I am not eating that one. Im just a peion


 A Peon would be someone who works for an hourly wage with all taxes taken out. So you are an employee not a sub? or GC like your profile says?


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## Sampietro (Apr 14, 2011)

summithomeinc said:


> A Peon would be someone who works for an hourly wage with all taxes taken out. So you are an employee not a sub? or GC like your profile says?


I am a sub and if my GC ever told me to build something like that I would either do it right or go home. No money worth a lawsuit that size.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

summithomeinc said:


> A Peon would be someone who works for an hourly wage with all taxes taken out. So you are an employee not a sub? or GC like your profile says?


Unless he just changed it I don't see that on his profile.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Sampietro said:


> I am a sub and if my GC ever told me to build something like that I would either do it right or go home. No money worth a lawsuit that size.


My point in asking is that if he was paid as a sub then he is liable. Saying the boss told me to won't protect him. I agree wether sub or employee we should allways do the right thing. Regardless of what the law says.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

CrpntrFrk said:


> Unless he just changed it I don't see that on his profile.


It said it when I typed that. I went and looked first. yeah it's been changed now.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Carpenter eyes - please don't be upset here. Go tomorrow and make it legal. If the boss asks what the hell you're doing, calmly explain it to him. You could also tell him you're looking out for his best interests too.

So he doesn't get sued.

You could just add some verticle pieces with gaps not more than 4 inches. The inspector uses a 4" ball to check. If the ball passes through anywhere, you fail.

I usually leave gaps at 3 3/4"


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

katoman said:


> Carpenter eyes - please don't be upset here. Go tomorrow and make it legal. If the boss asks what the hell you're doing, calmly explain it to him. You could also tell him you're looking out for his best interests too.
> 
> So he doesn't get sued.
> 
> ...


I agree with Kato. And stay and talk. You will get alot of good advice.


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## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

Few things. Going back to playing carpenter. But i will still keep doing general contracting work . Which i ment when i typed it in. 2) tomorrow i will go in and correct my mistake but im sure i will get "talked" to about it. Sorry if i posted bad work. Once again i was tild to build and i did. I am not one to speak back to the man writing my check. I will take an hour or 2 tomorrow and put the proper spacing in.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Carpenter eyes said:


> Few things. Going back to playing carpenter. But i will still keep doing general contracting work . Which i ment when i typed it in. 2) tomorrow i will go in and correct my mistake but im sure i will get "talked" to about it. Sorry if i posted bad work. Once again i was tild to build and i did. I am not one to speak back to the man writing my check. I will take an hour or 2 tomorrow and put the proper spacing in.


good for you. It takes a much better person to go back and fix their mistakes than it does to just ignore them. I hope we get to see pictures of the modified handrail.:thumbsup:


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## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> good for you. It takes a much better person to go back and fix their mistakes than it does to just ignore them. I hope we get to see pictures of the modified handrail.:thumbsup:


I got to redeam myself. I think im just gonna rip down 1xs to 3/4 and have at it. Will that be enough or go more??


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## Sampietro (Apr 14, 2011)

Carpenter eyes said:


> Few things. Going back to playing carpenter. But i will still keep doing general contracting work . Which i ment when i typed it in. 2) tomorrow i will go in and correct my mistake but im sure i will get "talked" to about it. Sorry if i posted bad work. Once again i was tild to build and i did. I am not one to speak back to the man writing my check. I will take an hour or 2 tomorrow and put the proper spacing in.


Better to be talked about going back to fix your work than when someone get hurt. I know it hard to go against what the boss tells you to do but in that situation it's in the best interest for both of you. Good man fixing it: thumbs up


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm no railing designer but I would do it just like you see alot of deck rails. A 2x4 top and bottom between the posts and then 2x2s spaced about 3 3/4" apart.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

You don't have to rip pieces to 3/4, just add some verticle 1x4, or whatever you have. Just so no space is larger that the 4 inches.

Don't look at it like you are "talking back", rather than speaking up in a non-confrontational manner. Remember, you're also protecting your boss.

I'm glad you're going to fix it. We all had to learn. I'm not confessing the chit I messed up. :laughing:


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## 3bar (Jan 14, 2011)

those 1x4's are a bad idea for a rental place. they'll get kicked and broken in no time.


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## Sampietro (Apr 14, 2011)

3bar said:


> those 1x4's are a bad idea for a rental place. they'll get kicked and broken in no time.


I agree 100% definitely not adequate. At the very least try to get some 5/4. Unless you are using hardwood then that might be ok. Good luck


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## Builttolast (Oct 16, 2011)

Im going to say this and only this. The input on the handrail critique is plenty so I dont have to add anything. If you are working for a landlord/property agency (I get work for one or two of those from time to time) do everything as CODE REQUIRES not just "what the boss man says" because in the end - YOU did the work and its YOUR ass that will be in the sling if someone gets hurt or property gets damaged etc. If you are told to "replace a toilet and fix a leak under the sink" Use all new parts and do it RIGHT THE FIRST TIME, dont take short cuts that he tells you to, especially if they are BLATANTLY wrong/against code.

I just put in new toilet for a property agency, told him it needed a new flange - He said "Eh, it'll be ok" (mind you flange was cracked in 3 places and not even properly installed) I told him to either let me do it the right way and replace/install it properly. After 15 mins of arguing WHY I want it done right he agreed...

Do NOT skimp on YOUR workmanship OR code requirements because of a landlord or "bossman"... Ive made 8 NEW customers that were and still are renting from the property agency because I do my best work - Be it a $50,000 contract or a $75 service call. I replaced a sink and shower for one of the property agency renters, I just got a phone call yesterday from that renters neighbor who OWNS their home to estimate for a bathroom remodel because the renter and I were talking about my work and that I have my own company, and I dont work solely for the property agency. I did it right, did my best work, followed code AND got a lead/new customer out of it PLUS my pay.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Piss on landlords, never met one that wasn't tighter then a dolphins butt hole.


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## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

Update: went into work and now have my spacing at 3 1/2. All horizontal like it was origional. No pics though. Little busy and wanyed nothing to do with the place past 6 today. Lets just say i need a new table saw


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Piss on landlords, never met one that wasn't tighter then a dolphins butt hole.


I have. They are great to work for. Very few and far between though.

This thread brings to light a great subject of responsibility;personal, professional and legal. Has anyone gone through something like this before? Who is responsible if someone gets hurt? The employee that performed the work, or the GC that was contracted for the project? I would assume the GC...


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Dan_Watson said:


> I have. They are great to work for. Very few and far between though.
> 
> This thread brings to light a great subject of responsibility;personal, professional and legal. Has anyone gone through something like this before? Who is responsible if someone gets hurt? The employee that performed the work, or the GC that was contracted for the project? I would assume the GC...


Ok, I lied. I had a couple that got "it", but the other 70 or so were a waste of time.


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## Sampietro (Apr 14, 2011)

Dan_Watson said:


> I have. They are great to work for. Very few and far between though.
> 
> This thread brings to light a great subject of responsibility;personal, professional and legal. Has anyone gone through something like this before? Who is responsible if someone gets hurt? The employee that performed the work, or the GC that was contracted for the project? I would assume the GC...


I agreed it's the GC's name on the project not the employee. Also the work is being performed under the GC's license and insurance.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Sampietro said:


> I agreed it's the GC's name on the project not the employee. Also the work is being performed under the GC's license and insurance.


Only if he was paid as an employee. Could be gc and sub


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## Sampietro (Apr 14, 2011)

summithomeinc said:


> Only if he was paid as an employee. Could be gc and sub


Yes if he is a licensed and insured sub then he is definitely on the hook.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Sampietro said:


> Yes if he is a licensed and insured sub then he is definitely on the hook.


Why would he need to have a license and insurance to be liable? If you do work that you know is dangerous you could be liable even as an employee


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## Sampietro (Apr 14, 2011)

summithomeinc said:


> Why would he need to have a license and insurance to be liable? If you do work that you know is dangerous you could be liable even as an employee


I don't see a hourly employee being legally liable even knowing that the work he is performing is not up to code. Not saying that he won't be morally liable. Maybe I am wrong but if that is the case why wouldn't every employees need to carry insurance then.


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

Sampietro said:


> I don't see a hourly employee being legally liable even knowing that the work he is performing is not up to code. Not saying that he won't be morally liable. Maybe I am wrong but if that is the case why wouldn't every employees need to carry insurance then.


What I was trying to say is we don't know if he was paid as an employee or as a sub. If he was paid as a sub then he could be liable. even if he didn't have a license or insurance. If he was an employee and He KNOWINGLY put someone in danger by doing sub par work then yes I think he could still be sued. He's probably as broke as me so the likelyhood of it actually happening is slim. Lawyers usually go after people with money.


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