# Please help. Difficult Client and impossible to Satisfy



## wvfreemason (Oct 30, 2014)

Feel free to be brutally honest. I started building a detailed AZEK PVC deck for a family in July and had some personal issues that surfaced, but didn't interfere with the job. He weather delayed the completion time and two change orders also lengthened the time of completion. However, I'm almost completely finished, but the problem it's built to spec and code and it's very nice. Beautiful is what I'm told. Anyway, they're trying to pick this apart and are making my life very difficult. No matter what I do it's always something. I'm there five to six days a week and have integrity, but they are clueless about the industry. However they think they know it all. I was informed by AZEK that the joist spacing spec is 16"OC which I knew as long as the decking wasn't running diagonal. Which it's not and now they don't like the feel. It was described as a pier that moves with the ocean waves. I guess they want additional floor joists installed to increase the rigidness. Furthermore they want an estimate, but my priority is to complete the deck. I have the cap rail to install and once I'm paid they'll get the quote for additional floor joists. They informed me today this was my fault and the joists should of been 12-14" on center and will not pay me until I install more joists. AZEK has been engineer tested and meets all residential codes for 16" on center. They pretty much said I was lying and even the repairman from sears said it was suppose to be 14" OC. REALLY? Anyhow, I just checked the specs again and it's 16"OC. How in the world do I or anyone deal with ungrateful critical clients? All I want is to be done, paid, and my peace back. I'm loyal, honest, and probably a bit obsessive about perfection, but it doesn't seem to matter. It's always something with these people. It's a shame because they've really tried to screw me up and my passion is almost gone. I'm not a quitter but they have me hanging on by a thread. I mentally exhausted, and need to move on. What do you do or should I do with clients as such?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

I got a headache from trying to read that.

The space bar & enter key are your friends.

Do you have a contract that refers to the plans as to how this job will be put together?

Your contract have a payment schedule and clause to mediate disagreements?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Perhaps forward them the specs and joist spacing requirements as stated by the manufacturer. (If you haven't already)


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## wvfreemason (Oct 30, 2014)

RSelectric, thanks. I have sent the specs sheet from AZEK and I'll go over it with them again tomorrow. Even sent an email I received from one of AZEKS engineers. Bizarre situation.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

3 1/2 months on one deck????

How big is this thing?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I have no experience with Azek, but I surmise that 16" joist spacing is the maximum allowable--which of course wouldn't have the rigidity of a concrete slab. Not saying you didn't build according to specs, but perhaps with more experience you would have tightened up the spacing a bit so such complaints would be unlikely?

Nevertheless, show them the documentation from Azek and negotiate from there. :thumbsup:


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## wvfreemason (Oct 30, 2014)

*Size*

500sqft and 11' Height


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## Andrew6127 (Aug 14, 2012)

What size joists? How long is the span? What size posts?


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## wvfreemason (Oct 30, 2014)

*Sizing*

2x10 joists. 12 foot span, Posts are 6x's.


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## Andrew6127 (Aug 14, 2012)

Should have done 12OC, 16 is the max. It's a maximum for a reason.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

wvfreemason said:


> 500sqft and 11' Height


So your averaging about 5 sq ft of deck per day?


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Even treated decks I've been going 12 oc. I think it just builds a solid deck.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

This is from pg 3 of the Azek installation guide:

Proper joist spacing is required for proper installation. Joist spacing should never exceed 16” on center.
For a more rigid feel, 12” may be preferred.
• For best results, installing solid wood blocking between each joist, placed every 4’ - 6’ within the
structure, can help reduce movement or twisting of the joists. Limiting joist movement can help reduce
excessive gapping and also ensure more uniform finished surface of the AZEK Deck.

I'll ask again, did you have a set of plans at least approved by the owner?
Did your contract refer to these?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

I wouldn't add more joists without more money, and unless you used hidden fasteners, you want to let them know how the pattern will change before doing it...

What about cross-braces instead...

They can't argue manufacture specs... well they can, but... :whistling:


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

KAP said:


> I would add more joists without more money, and unless you used hidden fasteners, you want to let them know how the pattern will change before doing it... What about cross-braces instead...


Good point, fill that fvcker with blocking


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## BradingCon (Dec 17, 2010)

I would definitely do blocking at this point. And though 12" o.c would have been superior, 16" o.c. Is acceptable and in no way would I add joists without compensation.


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

I can't believe they want you there even LONGER.

This is one of those times when you show them you're the pro and their the customer. "Hi, here's the contract with the design specifications, here's the plan that went to the town BO, here's the payment schedule and here's your invoice. It needs to be paid now. If you would like to add framing, I will be happy to give you a price but, bear in mind, that it's going to be a fair bit of work and expense to not only add the framing, but secure the decking to it." 

That's it. Done deal. If it's a final payment and they're dragging their feet then you finish the job and document the hell out of it, then you lien their house.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

4 posts and no responses and on the job for over three months... my guess is there is no contract, plans or permits...

If that's the case, about all he do is rely on MFG specs... the rest may just be school of hard knocks...


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

KAP said:


> 4 posts and no responses and on the job for over three months... my guess is there is no contract, plans or permits...
> 
> If that's the case, about all he do is rely on MFG specs... the rest may just be school of hard knocks...


Perhaps, but who knows what he SAID he would do and what they expected. Could be a significant difference.


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## BradingCon (Dec 17, 2010)

Is it normal in a deck contract to specify joist spacing. Also, I rarely have any plans to build from either. Just not the norm in my parts. I always have a pretty detailed scope in my contracts but not sure I would have mentioned joist spacing. Someone enlighten me.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

griz said:


> Perhaps, but who knows what he SAID he would do and what they expected. Could be a significant difference.


True... but this is not coming across as someone with experience installing decks or working with this specific product...

On the other hand... I know guys that work 16" OC to save money in decking... and if it's in the MFG specs, unless the clients have something in writing, well...

If the 12" OC is not in a contract as a stipulation, they can say anything, but he can point back to the MFG...

In this case, it doesn't make him right or wrong, since the MFG spec'd it as acceptable...

I don't think he'll do 16"OC again though... :whistling


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

BradingCon said:


> Is it normal in a deck contract to specify joist spacing. Also, I rarely have any plans to build from either. Just not the norm in my parts. I always have a pretty detailed scope in my contracts but not sure I would have mentioned joist spacing. Someone enlighten me.



So this doesn't happen. I spec the nails, screws, and bolts we're going to use.


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## BradingCon (Dec 17, 2010)

Guess I need to tighten up my contract. I have a small town mentality I suppose.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

BradingCon said:


> Is it normal in a deck contract to specify joist spacing. Also, I rarely have any plans to build from either. Just not the norm in my parts. I always have a pretty detailed scope in my contracts but not sure I would have mentioned joist spacing. Someone enlighten me.


Yes on the plans, with all lumber species dimension, spacing, grade & method of attachment called out. Bolts, screws, nails, footings and piers also are all specified.

Pretty much all that info and an Engineer's wet stamp are required by the bldg. dept.

But all that chit called out & spec'd eliminates a lot of questions and arguments.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

".... a pier that moves with the ocean waves. I guess they want additional floor joists installed to increase the rigidness"

That sounds to me like a lack of structural stiffness, not the PVC sag between joists that I think we're all assuming. If so it may be that owners (and the O.P.?) think that adding joists is the way to increase structural stiffness.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

According to the specs produced by AZEK the joists are to be 16 inches on center for residential and 12 inches for commercial.

At this point, I would call the customer, make an appointment to rectify the problem and do not argue on the phone.

When you arrive you tell the customer that if you made a mistake you will gladly change the center of the joists and then you drop the ball on your customer's lap.

You tell the customer that if he (or she) can show you where the deck is installed wrong you will gladly make the correction. Give your customer a few seconds to breathe and then present your customer with the factory's specs.

At this point the customer has to prove that the specs are wrong and he can't. He (or she) has to admit that they are wrong.

Now, at this point you play Mr. Good Guy. You tell the customer that you will gladly add more joists to make them happy if they are willing to kick in some more cash and you will even do the job at your cost. But...doing a job at your cost doesn't mean you don't have to be paid for your time.

Your problem revolves around whether or not you made a mistake. If the customer can prove you made a mistake then be a man and make the correction. If the customer is wrong then you need to give them some rope so they can think clearly and give themselves a chance to turn around from thinking they are right to understanding that what you did was right and if they want more joists they (the customer who wants a better job) needs to pay a little more cash.

You will do much better to understand that there is nothing wrong with the customer wanting more joist support and as a contractor it is your duty to give customers what they want even when they change their mind. The problem you need to overcome is whether or not you made a mistake and then you need to be a good salesman and help the customer to get what they want.

Even if you walk away from this job with your money both you and your customer will be losers because you failed to satisfy your customer regardless of who is at fault. It is a nice feeling to have a serious problem customer and then resolve the problem and make them happy. The thought in this paragraph is exactly what I would say to my customer so they understand that I am trying to work out a deal that benefits all parties, but I also want to make it clear that my contract does have enough money in it for the additional joists. 

This is something else I try to get across to my customers. If your customer would have requested more joists before a contract was signed the total amount for the contract would have been higher. Your customer would have either agreed to pay more in the beginning if more joists were included, or your customer would have to pay more at the end of the job if more were added after the contract was signed. My point is; either way the price is based on the number of joists that are installed and you need to get your customer to understand that the price they agreed to is based on the specific number of joists that were installed.


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## philcav7 (Jan 15, 2009)

griz said:


> Yes on the plans, with all lumber species dimension, spacing, grade & method of attachment called out. Bolts, screws, nails, footings and piers also are all specified.
> 
> Pretty much all that info and an Engineer's wet stamp are required by the bldg. dept.
> 
> But all that chit called out & spec'd eliminates a lot of questions and arguments.


Agreed. I don't need stamps in my area, just basic drawings detailing framing, elevations, etc. 

Even if the bldg dept doesn't require specs/drawings, it's important to prevent customer disappointment and problems. In this situation, the added joist would have been a minor cost increase to the overall project cost. I can't imagine the client would choose a squishy deck if they knew 12" OC was a preferred/better construction method. 

You may have conformed to manufacturer specs, but they are still not happy. It shouldn't fall on your shoulders (wallet) to correct the issue, but I would take it easy on the additional labor to rectify their concerns... It would have been much cheaper/easier to build it at 12"OC than to add joist now. Blocking may very well be a viable, low cost solution. Determine if the deflection is the joist or the decking and go from there. In the future, recommend 12"OC and explain the benefits.


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## wvfreemason (Oct 30, 2014)

Thank you all very much! Yes, there's a contract and it is very detailed. I enclosed the AZEK building manual/spec sheet was attached. Next time I'll certainly explain the benefits of joists 12-14" OC.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Is the customer unhappy about the deck boards sagging between the joists, or the feeling that the whole deck is unstable?


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## wvfreemason (Oct 30, 2014)

I would most certainly correct any mistake that I made. I will be happy to add additional joists for them at their expense because it will cost more. I dotted my i's and crossed my T's on the contract which is only professional. It'll get remediated and both parties will be happy. I've built with composites, but this was the first PVC deck I had done. It's very nice, but it hurts when a customer shows no appreciation for quality work. Once again I am certainly grateful for everyone's input!


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## wvfreemason (Oct 30, 2014)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Is the customer unhappy about the deck boards sagging between the joists, or the feeling that the whole deck is unstable?



They're unhappy about the spongy feeling or lack rigidness that the PVC decking has to it. It's minimal in my opinion, but I'm not the customer. Ido have blocking installed at 6' as well. Adding additional joists would decrease this situation, but my main concern is they are going to hold my pay for the completed deck until the joists are installed.


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## Andrew6127 (Aug 14, 2012)

Pictures of the deck? Can you feel what they are pointing out?


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## huggytree (Nov 3, 2013)

Mike Holmes doesnt build anything to minimum spec....(haha)

sounds like its your first time w/ this product and you learned 16" spacing is legal, but doesnt give a good final product

how much time & $$ would it take to throw some extra joists under it?

if its 10% of the job id consider eating it and just do it for the homeowner....but make sure they realize you need to be paid in full when the jobs complete....

they arent happy with your product...it may be code legal, but it sounds like if its bouncy that most people wouldnt want to pay.....sounds like your inexperienced with it and the homeowners are the ones who get to suffer for your inexperience....just fix it


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> ".... a pier that moves with the ocean waves. I guess they want additional floor joists installed to increase the rigidness"
> 
> That sounds to me like a lack of structural stiffness, not the PVC sag between joists that I think we're all assuming. If so it may be that owners (and the O.P.?) think that adding joists is the way to increase structural stiffness.


Really good question and something that should be gone over with the HO before proceeding


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

wvfreemason said:


> Thank you all very much! Yes, there's a contract and it is very detailed. I enclosed the AZEK building manual/spec sheet was attached. Next time I'll certainly explain the benefits of joists 12-14" OC.


I am not clear... did they get the 14"OC from the Sears guy or AZEK? If you attached it to their contract, how was it not discussed?

No offense, but I don't think you are giving us the whole story...

What seems a little odd to me is if you added blocking, as recommended by AZEK spec, why would you conform to one aspect of their recommendation for a more rigid feel but not the other?

Regardless, at this point, I am going to guess they are pissed because it took so long... That doesn't excuse them not wanting to pay.

It's very simple... you DO NOT do the extra joist work, which is a SEPARATE CONTRACT, without them paying you for the work you already performed according to MFG spec and contract...

Why would you start ANOTHER contract with them when they haven't paid up on the first? How are you even paying your bills if they owe you money, are there 5-6 days a week, for 3-4 months?

In this case, IMHO, they are absolutely going to use the amount of time it took against you...

But you need to keep reiterating that you fabricated to MFG spec's and even used their "for best results" method of blocking every 6'... if they want MORE than that, they pay for it... 

But you don't start ANOTHER contract with them when they haven't satisfied the first...


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## Andrew6127 (Aug 14, 2012)

Add the joists, 8 OC! No sag then.


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## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Is the customer unhappy about the deck boards sagging between the joists, or the feeling that the whole deck is unstable?


That was my first question. All the blocking in the world won't make a difference if the deck is swaying back and forth 11' off the ground. 

Other than this joist spacing issue, how is AZEK decking to work with? I've never used it except for residential trim and panelized facades.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Post a few pictures of the structure of the deck from underneath; perhaps one of the deck gurus will have some suggestions, if not for this deck then for the next one.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Dont be chicken, post a picture and we will tell you exactly how to take it down and rebuild it. I mean fix it.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

What's up with the reference to 14" joist spacing?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I have no idea how a azek deck feels on 12" centers as I never seen anything but 16" centers around these parts. I priced one out a while back with 12"centers but the guy didn't want to do that because of the extra cost. Kind of glad I didn't get that job as I could be in this guys shoes now.


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## Jrnoodle (Feb 20, 2009)

We install the AZEK deck almost exclusively. Now we don't install a lot of decks, maybe 8-10 a year, but we have never installed 12" OC unless it is a diagonal deck. 

I don't think it feels soft at all. But I am very particular about the joist spans though. We do tend to over size/build the deck frame. Don't like it when the deck feels like a trampoline.


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## totes (Oct 17, 2013)

If the frame is the issue, I would install a strongback first, before going down the road of retrofitting the deck to 8"oc. 
Just a single 2x in the center of the deck perpendicular to the joists would stiffen things up, but why not 2 or 3. 
Would take about 10 minutes.


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## rluikart (Sep 23, 2013)

*Inevitable*

Inevitable

It is, sad to say, almost inevitable that each of us will, someday, encounter an 'impossible' client. The reasons for their behavior vary but when complaints surface just before completion or even after completion it is frequently a ploy to rationalize non-payment. If you are a licensed building contractor then small claims court is a viable and useful solution to such behaviors. Unlicensed workmen can still prevail ocasionally but it is much better to be licensed. If you have never experienced small claims court than I highly recommend it. The process seems daunting at first but it is a tool as useful as any other you have in your trade. Like any tool, it is good to have experience with it's use.

First, I would go into a formal business mode with your customer. Write a letter acknowledging their complaint and formally requesting their decision as to whether they want you to complete the job or whether they want you to halt construction. Their decision needs to be delivered to you in writing. Explain to them that you intend to settle any disputes in small claims court and that their written response will be presented as part of that action. 

If they request that you complete the job then you have evidence that that can support an argument that their dissatisfaction is superficial. If they ask that you discontinue than you can argue breach of contract and collect the full amount, leaving someone else to endure their wrath. If your customer will not respond to your request for clarification than, bring that up in court. It does not go well for a defendant if they have demonstrated a reluctance to cooperate in a reasonable business practice. Here, as everywhere, PPPPPP (Proper Preperation Prevents nPiss Poor Performance ;-)

Either way, submit a claim for the full amount plus filing expenses and any other related expenses that are relevant. Prepare your argument as succinctly and briefly as possible and bring plenty of documentation with you to court. Include copies of the building code as appropriate. Preponderance of evidence is a powerful tool here. 

You will probably be able to manage this claim by yourself but your argument might be enhanced if you can employ either of the following: 1) If you have drawn a permit for the work and you have an inspector friend/acquaintance in the building department then request his/her attendance at the small claims hearing - it doesn't hurt to ask but don't be too surprised if a county official responds negatively to that request. Sometimes they are prohibited from such activities, but ask anyway - you never know. 
2) A fellow contractor who will be willing to inspect the job and support you might also be helpful. 

Above all... Remember this... This happened (or will happen) to all contractors... try not to take it personally. Note what warning flags showed up early and learn to be alert for them in future dealings. Think of this as a business learning opportunity and try not let it cloud your future relationships.


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## diverjohn (Jun 9, 2014)

I couldn't have said it better.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

While that was well written, gotta' be honest, not a "tool" I want to have or have to exercise...

That's a life sucker right there... time you never get back, with no guaranteed results... I'd rather spend the time working on the next project...


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## jrannis (Aug 22, 2011)

Tell them to each loose 100lbs and then test it as its only rated for 150lbpsf.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

KAP said:


> While that was well written, gotta' be honest, not a "tool" I want to have or have to exercise...
> 
> That's a life sucker right there... time you never get back, with no guaranteed results... I'd rather spend the time working on the next project...


Which is exactly why people try to screw you. I don't consider it a loss of time to not let someone screw me. I've gone 25 years without taking someone to court, and then only a couple of times. But recently I had to do it and have another one pending. Both are young gals that think they're smart and can play me until I wither and go away. Sorry, but that isn't happening. It might suck the life out of them but not me. In fact I'd say it was therapuetic, like taking a big dump.


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## flatrateconst (Oct 8, 2014)

Warren said:


> 3 1/2 months on one deck????
> 
> How big is this thing?


That's why the client is difficult. :laughing:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

RangoWA said:


> Which is exactly why people try to screw you. I don't consider it a loss of time to not let someone screw me. I've gone 25 years without taking someone to court, and then only a couple of times. But recently I had to do it and have another one pending. Both are young gals that think they're smart and can play me until I wither and go away. Sorry, but that isn't happening. It might suck the life out of them but not me. In fact I'd say it was therapuetic, like taking a big dump.


Rango, I should have added that we leave very little on the back-end to get screwed out of... additionally, the last payment to us is in the form of certified funds, money order or cash... They know this when starting, and are reminded on multiple occasions before the final day including when going through with the punch/tick/check list ... if we show up and payment is not there, we don't start work until it is... if we have to come back, there is a trip charge assessed because they knew the terms in advance...

We purposely leave work for the final day that will encompass any tick list items (we don't finish and THEN do a punch list) plus product that will generally cost them more than the final payment (5-10% depending on project)...

This removes any issue with getting paid... final payment in certified funds, money order or cash is never an issue and customers have remarked that is a good business practice...

Forget court... it's a life-drainer... set yourself up to remove it as a possibility...

.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

KAP said:


> Forget court... it's a life-drainer... set yourself up to remove it as a possibility...


It's there for exactly the reason that I used it. Like I said, it's been about 25 years since I last had to do it but I'm not walking away from an invoice.


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

RangoWA said:


> In fact I'd say it was therapuetic, like taking a big dump.


:laughing: :laughing:
I feel the same way. My contracts are pretty solid and I document everything, so my W/L record is 100%. I don't take no sheet and am a bulldog when it comes time for me to get my money. Although 3+ months on a 500sf deck is waaaaay excessive, so I'm sure that has something to do with their satisfaction (or lack thereof).


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## Mike Gorman (Nov 27, 2014)

Without all the facts, we can only assume that you don't have written specifications accompanied by a legal contract stating everything you that is and isn't included in the contract. RemodelMAX prints an estimating data base that details everything you need to do on such a project in the chronological order it would be done. Other guides are available as well. Such a list of specifications is required when working with today's homeowner. 

Next we need to explore how you set up collecting payment for the job. It may be that if you have collected the majority of your contract price (which you should have by now) you would get a final inspection from the appropriate agency and walk away. Again we are assuming that you have a building permit (the permit can work in your favor in these cases). 

I can provide you with collection options that might have eased the financial pain you may be facing; 

You might collect 30% down on jobs over $20,000 and 50% down on smaller jobs. On those larger jobs, get another progress payment at the start of some activity in the middle of the job, at start of drywall for example, of 35%. Then comes a payment on substantial completion of 30% on larger jobs, 40% on smaller jobs. The goal is to always leave the customer holding no more than 5% on larger jobs and 10% on smaller jobs once you reach the point of substantial completion. 

If you don't have the controls resulting from good plans and specs and a tight payment schedule they are in control. 

In the worst case, your choices are either satisfy them in some manner - be it negotiation of a compromise or complying with their wishes OR walking away. 

Don't do anything more without clearly specified details of what you will do to make them happy AND if possible collect all the money you can before to begin again. You might not get the complete price you quoted from them at this moment, but you should get something as a sign or good faith now before you move on. Perhaps you could get 90% of the contract price in your hands now (see schedule above.) 

If my assumptions are wrong about your contract, specs and payment requirements, all of my advice is meaningless, but it may help someone else avoid getting in the same mess you find yourself. In any event, you might look to avail yourself to training such as you might find at conventions and/or seminars for remodelers. You're not the first person who has found yourself in this situation, but there are strategies for avoiding it or at least minimizing the pain.

Good Luck!


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