# Mini-split system install requirement question



## tru (Jan 8, 2010)

Hey guys doing a real small job and want to see if it is possible to do this my self. I am a licensed general contractor in California.
Have a client with a granny house studio. 560 sq. ft tiny, right now they have a direct vent wall mount unit that has problems, the pilot light keeps blowing out.
They say they want to remove that and put in forced heating and air. From what I have read even the smallest unit would be too large for this space. True? 
I think a 18,000 BTU Mitsubishi mini split with heat and air would be the way to go. I have watched some install videos on this but still not sure.

Can I Install this with basic tools? or are there welding and specialized tools needed. If not pulling a permit can I even buy one in CA?

Thanks guys, not trying to take from your trade, it just looks too simple in the videos.


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## gene2 (Apr 27, 2009)

You may as well, apparently in the videos the mention of pulling a vacuum & weighing in or out the corresponding amount of refrigerant is not important enough and does involve a considerable investment in equipment & training to do this. This will work to the detriment of that industry niche.

We are getting an increasing number of calls from HO & GC who think there is nothing to this. We will not work on any system unless we are convinced that a proper vacuum was pulled on the lineset to begin with, the actual charge weight can be later verified when operational problems arise. By then, the effects of air in the system have done the damage that will very expensive to undo.

Improper evacuation of the lineset introduces air to the system, the problems resulting from that gets very complicated & expensive forever after. 

As an HVAC contractor, we do not install HO or GC supplied equipment due to implied warranty if it doesn't work. The parts are covered by the manufacturer, for the first year the installer eats the labor. That is our incentive to install properly & hopefully make a little profit to boot. Sometimes we make a little, sometimes we lose big time. Depends on how the HVAC contractor values each client.

Hopefully you will be able to establish a relationship with a HVAC contractor that will be ultimately beneficial to you both.


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## MechAcc (Feb 27, 2005)

*Better check with Mitsubishi first. Believe they will not warranty installs of equipment sold over the internet and not installed by a qualified HVAC professional. Is it worth the savings if you get no warranty?*


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

As long as you are going to do the warranty work yourself.
Go a head and install it.

Cause no contractor is going to come out and work for free if it has a problem. And the service call fee will floor your customer.

Specially, when they get charged for the part. or get charged for warranty handling.

These are things we include with our equipment and install prices.

One in warranty service call could cost your customer 200 to 400 dollars.
When if you had a contractor provide and install it. It would be free.


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

Also 18,000 BTU regular heat pumps are common.
I believe is possible your already over sizing the equipment for your customer.


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## tru (Jan 8, 2010)

*OK thanks guys, I won't try to pull it off*

I was only going to do it if it was possible to do it correctly with basic tools. I had called a hvac contractor before posting my original message. He quoted me $5,200-$5,500 and it sounded ridiculous when I can find one of these units online for $1450 new. That means the hvac contractor with labor and overhead is close to $4000. For a job that will probably take 5 hours to install and not require him to crawl in any attic or under the house. Drill a hole, mount the unit, vacuum the lines, charge the system, run 220 12 feet to the panel, and test the system. Does this sound reasonable?


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

For a 18,000 BTU, yep.

Remember. You only see part of the job.

While under first year warranty.
Who pays for labor?
Who pays for the dang phone tag time to get warranty parts?
The gas for the truck.
The service tech's wages.

Thats all included in the install price.

that price you saw on the internet. probably didn't include everything needed, or that will be used.


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## bdoles (Sep 11, 2007)

I installed a unit last month for a client, they purchased it. I installed the inside wall mount unit and the outside unit along with the line sets. Called the HVAC guy to come and charge it. Pretty simple and it worked great. Client loved it.


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

And if it has no problems. He made pocket change.


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## JJDH (Jan 20, 2010)

5200 for a basic mini split would be a bit high here on this side of town. I am unfamiliar with prices over there. I have one in my attic, I installed it and it cost about 1700, for a 7000 btu sanyo. This was after materials. It is about 8 man hrs give or take.


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

JJDH said:


> 5200 for a basic mini split would be a bit high here on this side of town. I am unfamiliar with prices over there. I have one in my attic, I installed it and it cost about 1700, for a 7000 btu sanyo. This was after materials. It is about 8 man hrs give or take.


Check the your price for a 18,000BTU.

Plus ALL material.
Pad kine set enclosure, disconnects, 14-what ever SJO, etc.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Just cause of the liability, chump change you might make & future PITA factor give it to a reliable HVAC guy. What is the cooling load of the space?
Computers, cooking etc?


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## JJDH (Jan 20, 2010)

beenthere said:


> Check the your price for a 18,000BTU.
> 
> Plus ALL material.
> Pad kine set enclosure, disconnects, 14-what ever SJO, etc.


 Absolutly. That s why i said i dont know the prices over on the west coast as far as labor??? Didnt say it was unreasonable, just seems more than over here. I dunno.


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

JJDH said:


> Absolutly. That s why i said i dont know the prices over on the west coast as far as labor??? Didnt say it was unreasonable, just seems more than over here. I dunno.


Thats why I try(key word"try")not to make too many comments about a price being too high.


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## JJDH (Jan 20, 2010)

beenthere said:


> Thats why I try(key word"try")not to make too many comments about a price being too high.


Everyone has an opinion, honestly a mini split with 1 wall mount isnt too difficult...


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

JJDH said:


> Everyone has an opinion, honestly a mini split with 1 wall mount isnt too difficult...


Nope.
Running that line set up 30' isn't too difficult.
Line set cover at 3 bucks a foot isn't cheap.
Cost of living in Cali isn't cheap either.

No idea of the overhead that the installing company has.
Maybe his guys make 30 bucks an hour. Or maybe 9 bucks an hour.


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## JJDH (Jan 20, 2010)

beenthere said:


> Nope.
> Running that line set up 30' isn't too difficult.
> Line set cover at 3 bucks a foot isn't cheap.
> Cost of living in Cali isn't cheap either.
> ...


 true... I dont use that cover. I use downspout and split the back. Looks nice. Hey the job probably is worth it. Right now it is good to get any work.........


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## tru (Jan 8, 2010)

*Hey Thanks guys really appriciate the feed back*

Like I said I am not trying to completely cut out the HVAC contractor. This is a small job and I am trying to make a little money on it too. I have *decided*​ that if the home owner goes with it, I will purchase the unit online, install the inside portion stubbed out through the *exterior*​ wall, run the electrical, place mounting pad for the condenser, and place the gutter to hide the line set. Have a licensed HVAC *contractor*​ purge the vacuum and charge the freon. *Mitsubishi*​ 12000BTU 20.5 seer heat pump single zone for $1,500, and a $200 line set and hardware kit with gutter and other stuff $75. =$1,775

I install it for $700, have a licensed HVAC contractor do his thing for $550. 
The home owner gets 30%back on tax refund thing because is efficient. 

$1,775 materials
$1,250 labor
$3,025 cost to the home owner minus rebate

Much better than my $5,200 quote I received in which I would make nothing.

What to You guys think Mitsubishi or *Fujitsu*​ for an extra $100


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## hvacr_pro (Jan 21, 2010)

just 1 problem there sparky...what happens in 6 months..lets say something goes.. simple relay u going to collect? warranty issues,most company's wont warranty product...lets say head has a issue with motor control jamming up stripped the gears new motor installation..warranty issues...collection,cust bitching.. biggest one.. or you going to be the guy..that doesnt go back.drain in the mit's are picky most installers make it difficult to access..but have seen 10grand of damage done to walls, mold issues unit leaking u dont want that responabity...but heck i work on all summer long...there great units..but they have issues...


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## hvacr_pro (Jan 21, 2010)

mit is a better unit...but can mold up..a bugger to clean..Fujitsu are good but had leaks at head flare nuts cracking..had 2 last year only about 3 years old...we didnt install companys not around anymore. rhreem dealer at that..all these mod furnaces out too


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## Brien (Feb 3, 2010)

*Glad your not taking food out of my kids mouth.*

Look, it's just wrong. You made a buck off our trade. You just lost ground and not a smart business man to blatently tell the nation on line. 
I thought this site was for HONEST contractors. It is because of people like yourself doing work you are not licensed to do that take work from those who worked their ass off in the trades and hard enough to to achieve licencesure. I know how hard it is to get a HVAC/R license it took me years. We also have to pay liability, comp, vehicle insurance, match their taxes and a host of other expenses. Hope you feel good


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## tru (Jan 8, 2010)

*Brian*

So you have never run any electrical, no mater how small yourself? You have never done anything out of the scope of you license? Give me a break, I am going to mount a hanging bracket and drill a hole in the wall and put a pad on the ground to sit the condenser on. Then call a licensed HVAC contractor to to do everything else. Maybe a electrician to connect. All of which I have to pay someone to do. Do you go to the city and pull a permit when your water heater goes out in your own house? you act like I am getting rich off your trade. I don't have to pay any of those expenses you mentioned?


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## hvacr_pro (Jan 21, 2010)

lol for one most hvac or refrigeration mech deal with 70percent electrical base items everyday...but u sure as hell know what ur dealing with when u encounter it, alum wiring being one, and proper grounds to everything now adays is becoming more and more of service tech problems. with dealing with control boards, we may install,service,or sales,but if your not able to see key points, when choosing ideal placement of unit. they have to be very well attached to the wall and cant bow. this will cause it to sit off the wall and look like hell. 2 drain issues down the road.


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