# Who Makes The Best Tile Leveling System?



## Contractor101

I am getting around to buying into a tile leveling system but am unsure of which to purchase. I like the looks of the Raimondi System but still am not positive which one. 

Recommendations please?


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## PrecisionFloors

There's literally a handful of threads on that very subject already, one currently active. Tuscan is very nice but very expensive. RTC I have not used. Angus likes the Raimondi setup quite a bit and I trust his judgment. Lash is garbage and not worth the aggravation. I think that sums it up. If I were starting over I'd give Raimondi a try. I'm already invested in Tuscan myself.


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## angus242

I recommend you read this so I don't go rewards point-whoring.

http://www.contractortalk.com/f73/rtc-tornado-leveling-system-148410/


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## PrecisionFloors

angus242 said:


> I recommend you read this so I don't go rewards point-whoring.
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f73/rtc-tornado-leveling-system-148410/


But you're so damned good at it. To thine own self be true man.


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## angus242

That was all pre-rewards. Now I just feel dirty when posting.


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## PrecisionFloors

angus242 said:


> That was all pre-rewards. Now I just feel dirty when posting.


That's just some of that Victorian era English upbringing left lingering behind. Be European. Or a politician. You'll find the guilt just washes away!


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## angus242

So you're suggesting it's OK to start posting topless?


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## asevereid

angus242 said:


> So you're suggesting it's OK to start posting topless?


What? 
I do it all the time... Is there another way?


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## TNTRenovate

Carboard drywall shims and hot glue gun....


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## Msham

Here is the tile leveling system I found when tearing up a floor in Honolulu. Pocketed about $2 worth of change out of the deal.


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## madmax718

Im going with the Raimondi. After some research, those little "legs" that get compressed are like fingers- and they help grip the tile from lateral movement. It would appear that the others ones don't seem to have that as a design trait. Also those legs become spacers when used in the corner of 4 tiles. 

I just bought the system, I will give it a whirl next week.


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## sunkist

ck out the john bridge tile forum, all those tile leveling systems have threads a mile long


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## Crastopher

Who has the best prices online for the RLS??


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## Xtrememtnbiker

Crastopher said:


> Who has the best prices online for the RLS??


PM'd you.


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## Floormasta78

The MLT is the best ! .. I don't know why the link to upload pictures from my tablet doesn't work. But this leveling is perfect especially for large format tiles..


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## Floormasta78

Stonetolling.com has this . let them know Orlando referred you so I may get free stuff while you guys pay..


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## TNTRenovate

Floormasta78 said:


> The MLT is the best ! .. I don't know why the link to upload pictures from my tablet doesn't work. But this leveling is perfect especially for large format tiles..


How is it better than RLS?


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## Floormasta78

Large caps that provide better counter pressure for a better level , less waste . straps and caps are reusable. You only need to buy plates .


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## TNTRenovate

I'm no expert and have only used the RLS system, but from the picture it looks like the RLS wedges are bigger than those caps. And I believe the MTL bases are about $100 more for 2000 than the RLS clips. RLS is also a two piece system. Wouldn't that be better than straps, bases and caps?

Again, just asking. I have a way of typing my thoughts that make it sound accusatory or judgmental.


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## Floormasta78

not at all . i undestand . the rls seem a bit flimsy . i have never used them . they look like the lash . regarding price . maybe im getiing a better deal then .


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## angus242

How can you say one product is better than another when you haven't used the other product?


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## Floormasta78

proven system and construction.. look at that cheap system . RLS looks like it takes too much effort. common sense and the obvious


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## Xtrememtnbiker

Floormasta78 said:


> proven system and construction.. look at that cheap system . RLS looks like it takes too much effort. common sense and the obvious


I used RLS per Angus's recommendation on a job a month or so ago. First time using a leveling system of any kind. I lay tile probably average of 20 times per year as we are a general remodeling contractor. It was easy, fast, and perfect. It was without a doubt my most perfect tile install yet. I also know I laid it faster than I could have without the RLS which makes up for the additional cost of them. But it makes the job that much more perfect.

Now, I've never used anything else, don't really plan to, I used RLS, I like it, and I will continue to use it.

Not arguing... just... disagreeing.

:laughing:


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## TNTRenovate

Floormasta78 said:


> proven system and construction.. look at that cheap system . RLS looks like it takes too much effort. common sense and the obvious


Looking like something is simply subjective. When determine what is "best" or "better" you would need to be objective.

It is not cheap nor does it look cheap in person.

A two piece system versus a three piece system, when did fewer pieces make more of an effort? If you are referring to cinching it down, you don't need a tool like the MLT system.

After my first install, I discovered how to install them tight, in a matter of seconds, with no tools and without killing my fingers.

So common sense seems to be working against you, not for you.


3pc versus 2pc
tooless versus tool
less expensive


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## Floormasta78

well there it is then.. only cause he suggested .. ok tell you what , pm your address ill send you a kit for you to try out .. since you follow angus and his recommendations , LISTEN TO ME now.. the pressure on the MLT comes from the top not from the siude. please see video . rls is for the beginner . maybe cause its cheaper that why he likes it . but i dont agree with HIM ..


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## Xtrememtnbiker

TNTSERVICES said:


> Looking like something is simply subjective. When determine what is "best" or "better" you would need to be objective.
> 
> It is not cheap nor does it look cheap in person.
> 
> A two piece system versus a three piece system, when did fewer pieces make more of an effort? If you are referring to cinching it down, you don't need a tool like the MLT system.
> 
> After my first install, I discovered how to install them tight, in a matter of seconds, with no tools and without killing my fingers.
> 
> So common sense seems to be working against you, not for you.
> 
> 
> 3pc versus 2pc
> tooless versus tool
> less expensive


Wanna share info on the tooless method? It seemed much nicer to use the tool. My approach after a little while and getting a feel for it was set a tile with clips on one side, before tightening them down, I'd put the clips onto the tile I just set for the next course, and then I'd tighten.

Tightened it most of the way on all of them while making sure it stayed in place, then I would finish the job.


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## Floormasta78

with the MLT there is no need to worry about keeping them in place .. THEY STAY IN PLACE .. let me upload a video of my good friend Sal Diblasi using it


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## Floormasta78




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## Xtrememtnbiker

Floormasta78 said:


> with the MLT there is no need to worry about keeping them in place .. THEY STAY IN PLACE .. let me upload a video of my good friend Sal Diblasi using it


Let me remind you I'm an infrequent tile layer using a system for the first time. Some of the tiles wanted to move away from the adjacent tile when tightening the clip. I was probably doing something wrong...


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## TNTRenovate

Floormasta78 said:


> with the MLT there is no need to worry about keeping them in place .. THEY STAY IN PLACE .. let me upload a video of my good friend Sal Diblasi using it


They don't really move with RLS. To me the very very small amount of movement that I have experienced, wasn't issue enough to consider a much more expensive tool requiring 3 pc system.

And the whole beginner system is a bit of a stretch. It really destroys your argument to throw baseless insults around. The fact is Angus is far from a beginner and a little respect is required when having a discussion with peers. Sounds like someone is a bit jealous that they don't garner the same respect as others.


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## Xtrememtnbiker

I personally dislike arguing, try to avoid it. But... the first thing I see in the video, is him putting clips together. First impression of the system, is extra work. RLS is ready to go when I my stuff to the site.


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## Floormasta78

seems like money is the issue here.. i should be lucky im in california . i thiught it was nore about having the best system .. please change the topic heading . WHATS THE CHEAPEST LEVEL SYSTEM


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## Floormasta78

I let my kids play around at home one day before i start installation . Give them something to do


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## TNTRenovate

Floormasta78 said:


> seems like money is the issue here.. i should be lucky im in california . i thiught it was nore about having the best system .. please change the topic heading . WHATS THE CHEAPEST LEVEL SYSTEM


Money plays a role in something being the best. I doubt you would buy the MLT system if it cost 10x's that of RLS. So now address the other points that were made.

3pcs vs 2pcs
Requirement of a tool to install

So money isn't the only issue, but does play a part. By you own logic I could say that you think that because it has more parts, requires a tool and is more expensive it must be better.

Like Angus said in a previous thread about this very subject, please sell us on the reasons why the system is that much better than the RLS to justify over twice the expense? The purpose of these systems is to assist in making a level (flat) surface. I mean are you seriously saying that MLT is twice as good? 64th versus 32nd?

What do you pay for 2000 bases?


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## Floormasta78

angus rides that horse because he probably get a cut from them ... hes small potatoes to me . i dont care much about " like angus said " .. you guys are asking an overall question . i think the MLT IS THE BEST ..

I have tried several of these systems, and what I have found is that all the systems that either have a twisting motion, or sliding motion to tighten or tension a base, tend to move tiles out of place during that process. A leveling system that tensions the base with a downward motion does not affect the position of the tile as they do not exert a lateral force on the tile. Also all these systems, with one piece bases have a large amount of waste, resulting in a higher replacement cost for those bases. In my humble opinion MLT is the best system as it applies tension with a downward force, and has no waste at all, straps, and caps are reusable and the base is under the tile doing its job.﻿


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## CarpenterSFO

Tuscan for me. I find them easier than the wedges. More expensive, yes. If I ever get a much larger tile job I might switch, but for the moment the cost per job is low enough and worth it for me. IMO.


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## Floormasta78

TLS uses the same idea . therefore making a better system also . Mick Volponi was the man behind both systems


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## NDW

You mean to tell me that there are slabs that aren't perfectly flat, level, and crack free??  Who knew....


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## Floormasta78

hahahaa !


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## TNTRenovate

Floormasta78 said:


> angus rides that horse because he probably get a cut from them ... hes small potatoes to me . i dont care much about " like angus said " ﻿


So it's what I thought, it's an ego thing. Question answered. Thanks!

But how is he small potatoes to you? I mean you are both only one man. You may have a larger company, but you can still only have the experience of one man, just like him. Your opinion is only more valid in your own head. I would say get over yourself. Maybe it's already time to take another break from CT.


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## TNTRenovate

CarpenterSFO said:


> Tuscan for me. I find them easier than the wedges. More expensive, yes. If I ever get a much larger tile job I might switch, but for the moment the cost per job is low enough and worth it for me. IMO.


So unlike Floormasta you have actually used both systems. Thanks for the objective feedback.


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## Xtrememtnbiker

NDW said:


> You mean to tell me that there are slabs that aren't perfectly flat, level, and crack free??  Who knew....


Slabs... what's a slab...? :jester:

I've laid on a slab probably... 5 times. So far, they've been way worse than most of the wood floors around here.


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## Floormasta78

i dont have a company ... you work for him dont you or you owe him some money ? ... why you defend him so much


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## Floormasta78

i have used the TLS .. THAT WAS THE ONLY SYSTEM I USED BEFORE MLT .. AND it gave me great results ...


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## TNTRenovate

Floormasta78 said:


> i dont have a company ... you work for him dont you or you owe him some money ? ... why you defend him so much


Again, you can't answer a simple question. I'll repeat the questions you have not answered.

How is a three piece system less effort than a two piece system and one that doesn't require a tool to install? (I actually combined two into one, wanted to make it as easy to answer as possible)

How does price not factor into being the best?

Would you still buy MLT if it was 10x's that of RLS? If not, then price is a factor.

How is Angus small potatoes to you?

And no I do not work for Angus. Anyone with half a brain could see that my signature line as links to my company. I have worked for him on one job for one day, and yes I consider him a mentor, but how did I defend him so much? I ask DB questions when they stoop to bashing others because they don't have the experience, knowledge or ability to communicate actual intelligent thoughts or ideas.

I'll ask one last question, again. How much do you pay for 2000 bases?

So far you have done a crappy job at misdirection and shifting the subject from what is really being discussed to lame bashing and avoiding real questions.

Don't get so butt hurt when asked to defend you comments. You said MLT was the best, yet have never used RLS. I tend to agree with the question of how can you say it's better than a system you have never used.

Like I said in my original post questioning your statement I have never used MLT and was curious to know from someone who had why they think it was "the best".

Heck, you even miss characterized this thread on your self gratifying "hey look at me and welcome me back" thread. Funny that when Angus came back he didn't have to say "Hey look at me, I'm back".


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## Floormasta78

im an A HOLE ! thats why i would create a thread like that .. theres no other answer for that .


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## Floormasta78

tell you what .. ill get the main man himself in here with all the details. as far as price . i might paying less or more . you cant go off that because everyone gets different deals based on your relationship with your supplier.. check it out 

http://www.stonetooling.com/MLT-Leveling-System-s/723.htm


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## TNTRenovate

Floormasta78 said:


> tell you what .. ill get the main man himself in here with all the details. as far as price . i might paying less or more . you cant go off that because everyone gets different deals based on your relationship with your supplier.. check it out
> 
> http://www.stonetooling.com/MLT-Leveling-System-s/723.htm


So you're not going to answer my questions?


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## Floormasta78

i answered them .. I THINK ITS THE BEST BECAUSE IT IS !


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## angus242

Floormasta78 said:


> angus rides that horse because he probably get a cut from them ... hes small potatoes to me . i dont care much about " like angus said " .. you guys are asking an overall question . i think the MLT IS THE BEST ..
> 
> I have tried several of these systems, and what I have found is that all the systems that either have a twisting motion, or sliding motion to tighten or tension a base, tend to move tiles out of place during that process. A leveling system that tensions the base with a downward motion does not affect the position of the tile as they do not exert a lateral force on the tile. Also all these systems, with one piece bases have a large amount of waste, resulting in a higher replacement cost for those bases. In my humble opinion MLT is the best system as it applies tension with a downward force, and has no waste at all, straps, and caps are reusable and the base is under the tile doing its job.﻿


Having an opinion and sticking to it isn't a crime at all. If you've read anything I said beyond "RLS", you see I made no inference to which system performs the best. I simply said my experience with RLS vs cost is why I use them. 

If someone has invested money in TLS, I don't see any reason to change. Build the cost of whatever system you use into your bids. I was simply offering a way to keep costs down. 

However, your stupid accusations are part of a reason why someone might not appreciate your opinion(s) as much as you'd like them to. Do you have ANY proof I get cutbacks on anything? No. Because I don't. Even my preferred supplied doesn't sell them. I buy them from Contractors Direct just like anyone else can...for the same price as anyone else can.

I didn't start flapping my gums about this is better than that. You did. You haven't even tried RLS. How do you expect someone to follow your opinion when it's based off no experience?

Some folks are just full of themselves. I get it. You'll never hear me say, "it's the best because I said so". That's a mind numbing statement. Like most of the folks around here, we give opinions based off real-world experience and reasons behind a choice. 

I realized some were reading this thread because they haven't used a system. RLS is a good choice, even if you decided to change later. It's not an expensive start-up tool and it gives great results. That's not arguable. 

And for the record, TNT made a point to show up to one of my jobsites and actually USE the RLS before believing what I said. I'll always invite anyone to a jobsite if they want to see or try something in person. Others can talk all they want and wonder why their "advice" isn't followed. It's kind of a no brainer if you ask me.


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## Mickv

Hello Everybody,

Orlando asked me to join so i could answers some questions for you guys that may have. Please let me start just saying that i have been talk with Mr. Ivan Raimondi since 2008 and i have great respect for him, his company and his brother in Law Mr. Sighinolfi which is the inventor of the RLS. We are two very different system one based on the simplicity of the product (great advantage) and one on performance and long term use.(great advantage) The RLS has two setting tools (one for walls and one for floor) and rightfully so, as they are aware i believe as we are that a ergo tool is neccessary for a long term use of the system to minimize the potential for carpo tunnel and trigger fingers after long term use. I would be aware of any system that declare that not setting tool is necessary as probably they DID NOT did enough research on the matter (one of our partner is a very succesfull worker comp attorney) and just to try to jump on the band wagon as well the knock off or company that badly copy other people or companies ideas. Now to the difference between the two system and i will focus only on MLT and let you guys do the comparison to the others.... Yes the MLT is a three part system, yes it take a little longer to assemble but.... the reusable nylon and stainless steel strap allow you to choose different plates for the type of install you will be doing with no waste left behind (you pay for that extra plastic that goes in the land fill), the system can be retrofit with accessory to prolong indefinite the use of the caps and a rubber foot for it for marble and thin tile imstallation, the stainless WILL NOT brake above the grout joint as is with strap made solely of plastic , which you guys know how painfull it is to dig in the joint and remove the left over tabs or straps, not mentioning the time and risk pf damaging the tile. You need a ergo tool because unless your are the incredible Hulk your finger or hands will get tired and wear out and we work with those : ) The same strap will allpw you to set stone, thin tiles, regular porcelain or offset patterns, by just changing the plate. Bottom plate are inexpensive at 18 cents retail. Breaking points of the plates are different for each application (aka porcelain different then Thintile and stone etc) allowing you to apply the right pressure and plate coverage for the type of install.And last every mechanical edge levelimg system are the same pretty much when come to spped of install as if you collapse your ridges, clean properly your grout joints (MLT caps can be disingaged under perssure to allow you to re clean the joints after cap is tensioned) no one clip, shim or cap will make you go faster because you snap it or slide with your finger, you got to set the tile right in the first place then go to the fine tunimg and no viceversa : ) This is also why we called it Mechanical Lippage Tuning and not leveling system. The rubber foot for the cap will not scratch materials and also by been tensioning the strap vertically and not sideway you will prevent scratches from happening on soft or unglazed material. Also the rubber foot allows you to firmly tighting cap on material yet preventing scuffs or marks. I hope i answer some of your questions and at the end is what work best for you. Raimondi and Tuscan are both very good systems. Is up to you to see if MLT is for you.

Thank you.

Mick.


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## TNTRenovate

Good points. However I disagree that your fingers wear out not using a tool. I learned pretty quick how do install them in a matter of seconds with minimal effort and fatigue.

And while digging a broken clip it is a bit if a pain, the number if occurrences just doesn't justify the cost difference, IMO.

I am curious about the different plates. What limitations are there using RLS clips?

It's too bad Orlando couldn't articulate these answers himself. But I guess there are guys it there that like to stir the pot and walk away.


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## Mickv

We agree to disagree :thumbsup: I would suggest to get the setting tool from Raimomdi if you planing a long term use. Other then that if it works for you that is what count.:thumbsup: Orlando is a passionate guy and he is a big fan of the system, there is not reason to get things all wind up for nothing, we are professionals asking for questions and opinions and they should be answer in a calm and civilized matter : ) 
Thank you for the opportunity to explain. You all have a great day and keep use what makes your life and job easier.:thumbup:

Mick.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Mickv said:


> We agree to disagree :thumbsup: I would suggest to get the setting tool from Raimomdi if you planing a long term use. Other then that if it works for you that is what count.:thumbsup: Orlando is a passionate guy and he is a big fan of the system, there is not reason to get things all wind up for nothing, we are professionals asking for questions and opinions and they should be answer in a calm and civilized matter : ) Thank you for the opportunity to explain. You all have a great day and keep use what makes your life and job easier.:thumbup: Mick.


Mick can you send me out a sample of these MLT clips. I'm on the fence about a system to use and I would like to see them in person before ordering a bucket load.


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## Mickv

please send me your info at [email protected]

Thanks.

Mick.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Mickv said:


> please send me your info at [email protected] Thanks. Mick.


Thanks Mick I got it over to you just a second ago.


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## TNTRenovate

Mickv said:


> We agree to disagree :thumbsup: I would suggest to get the setting tool from Raimomdi if you planing a long term use. Other then that if it works for you that is what count.:thumbsup: Orlando is a passionate guy and he is a big fan of the system, there is not reason to get things all wind up for nothing, we are professionals asking for questions and opinions and they should be answer in a calm and civilized matter : )
> Thank you for the opportunity to explain. You all have a great day and keep use what makes your life and job easier.:thumbup:
> 
> Mick.


So like Orlando, you don't answer direct questions either?

I'll repeat, what are the limitations on application for RLS? Why the need for multiple bases? If it's a setting point, sell it.


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## Mickv

You should ask them what their limitations are, I can tell you what MLT will do: thin tile, regular porcelain ,ungaged polished and honed stone and off set. im not entitled to talk about their product nor want to, im sure that there is installers like Angus that can answer your question and tell you what can the RLS do and dont in his opinion. Im not trying to be difficult or,talk in innuendo, just common respect between Companies and i do not like to talk about anybody product but ours. Is up to you to decide which one is better suited for you.

thanks.


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## TNTRenovate

Mickv said:


> You should ask them what their limitations are, I can tell you what MLT will do: thin tile, regular porcelain ,ungaged polished and honed stone and off set. im not entitled to talk about their product nor want to, im sure that there is installers like Angus that can answer your question and tell you what can the RLS do and dont in his opinion. Im not trying to be difficult or,talk in innuendo, just common respect between Companies and i do not like to talk about anybody product but ours. Is up to you to decide which one is better suited for you.
> 
> thanks.


Right, but you listed it as benefit implying that it superior for doing so. So really there is no reason to have so many bases?

So now your system isn't a 3pc system but much more. I have to buy bases for each tile type? Okay I'll ask it this way. What are the benefits of a multi based system versus a single clip system?


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## Mickv

Stone base plate: allow you to set stone that vary up to 3/32 i thickness from each other.

Porcelain plate made for large form porcelain, hi pulling power

Thin tile plate made to dissapear under the mud at the edge of thin tile to prevent breakage, smaller foot print then the large form porcelain.

Off set , made to insert under three corner section or "T" and not weaking corners (porcelain tile only) using less per sq ft when installed in off set patterns.

Plates designed to "stab" the mud and not shovel action that could remove thinset from plate.

Hope this help.

thanks.

Mick


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## TNTRenovate

Mickv said:


> Stone base plate: allow you to set stone that vary up to 3/32 i thickness from each other.
> 
> Porcelain plate made for large form porcelain, hi pulling power
> 
> Thin tile plate made to dissapear under the mud at the edge of thin tile to prevent breakage, smaller foot print then the large form porcelain.
> 
> Off set , made to insert under three corner section or "T" and not weaking corners (porcelain tile only) using less per sq ft when installed in off set patterns.
> 
> Plates designed to "stab" the mud and not shovel action that could remove thinset from plate.
> 
> Hope this help.
> 
> thanks.
> 
> Mick


It does. I will have to use the RLS system for a bit longer to see those circumstances present themselves enough to warrant a look.

But if someone were willing to send the system and tool for me to try out for myself, I wouldn't turn it down.


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## angus242

I have used over 10,000 RLS clips and have not used the installation tool at all.

RLS has multiple clips available depending on circumstance. You can use the clip's thickness as a spacer. Therefore, they come in either 1/16" or 1/8" thicknesses. There is also a thick tile version for installing tile more than 1/2" thick. Finally, there are 3D clips which are designed to use where tiles butt to each other. They have a "T" and "+" center so you can use them as spacers like Tavy does. The integrated spacer is 1/16".

Aside from some extra assembly time and the overall cost, I have not heard complaints on either TLS or MLT. Especially when it comes to how they both perform.


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## Floormasta78

Never walked away. I was working. Spreading Spectralock Pro epoxy grout. Cause that's how good i am. I just wanted you guys to get the right person. In this case Mick is the right perso. Just like a brought Henry Rothberg to answer questions about Spectralock and UV .. 

I hope this settles it. And i do apologize for being rude. It's in my nature.


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## charimon

TNTSERVICES said:


> Good points. However I disagree that your fingers wear out not using a tool. I learned pretty quick how do install them in a matter of seconds with minimal effort and fatigue.
> 
> And while digging a broken clip it is a bit if a pain, the number if occurrences just doesn't justify the cost difference, IMO.
> 
> I am curious about the different plates. What limitations are there using RLS clips?
> 
> It's too bad Orlando couldn't articulate these answers himself. But I guess there are guys it there that like to stir the pot and walk away.


Get the Floor tool. Seriously, Get the Floor tool. :thumbsup:


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## srwcontracting

Couple Questions : TLS versus MLT

1. Can you get more tension out of MLT? 
2. In removing the caps on MLT, do you have to use tool or can you just Tap with hammer (not sure if it's recommended for TLS but that's the way I do it)

When I first tried a leveling system I bought RLS (and hated it!)
Then invested in TLS. Been using for 2 years now and couldn't imagine working without

Debating on whether MLT is next?


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## Floormasta78

MLT you use the gun. It's very quick. If you are used to the TLS you'll be Happy with MLT. The caps are much bigger than TLS


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## TNTRenovate

charimon said:


> Get the Floor tool. Seriously, Get the Floor tool. :thumbsup:


Don't need it. It would take longer with it. Seriously. Slide the wedge and finish it right there instead of having to reach for the tool every time. I'll post a video of how easy (and faster) it is to install without a tool.


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## TNTRenovate

Floormasta78 said:


> Never walked away. I was working. Spreading Spectralock Pro epoxy grout. Cause that's how good i am. I just wanted you guys to get the right person. In this case Mick is the right perso. Just like a brought Henry Rothberg to answer questions about Spectralock and UV ..
> 
> I hope this settles it. And i do apologize for being rude. It's in my nature.


At least you stroke your own ego and don't ask others to do so...oh wait, never mind, you are holding your own welcome back party.


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## GO Remodeling

Mickv said:


> there is no reason to get things all wind up for nothing, we are professionals asking for questions and opinions and they should be answer in a calm and civilized matter : )


True.


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## Xtrememtnbiker

TNTSERVICES said:


> I'll post a video of how easy (and faster) it is to install without a tool.


Please do. I was thrilled with how well it went using the tool. I would be cool if it could go even faster though.


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## charimon

TNTSERVICES said:


> Don't need it. It would take longer with it. Seriously. Slide the wedge and finish it right there instead of having to reach for the tool every time. I'll post a video of how easy (and faster) it is to install without a tool.



Not after installing 1300 sf of 6x24 with slight cupping issues. Used over 2800 of them in four days back in June. Your fingers would be hurting or numb after the fourth hour.
By the way i now have wedges for life


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## Floormasta78

TNT.. i tried. You know what. DON'T GET THE MLT. Don't bother anymore on this thread. Start charging more money of your jobs if you can't afford it


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## TNTRenovate

Floormasta78 said:


> TNT.. i tried. You know what. DON'T GET THE MLT. Don't bother anymore on this thread. Start charging more money of your jobs if you can't afford it


You didn't try. You wouldn't answer any of my questions. If this is you trying I feel sorry for your customers.

And affording it has nothing to do with it. It's called cost benefit analysis. I have asked you and your rep to answer a simple question and neither of you could or would, so the onus is still on you to show the need for the "upgrade" to a multi-piece, tool requiring system.


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## TNTRenovate

charimon said:


> Not after installing 1300 sf of 6x24 with slight cupping issues. Used over 2800 of them in four days back in June. Your fingers would be hurting or numb after the fourth hour.
> By the way i now have wedges for life


Your fingers may be hurting, but not mine. It's an easy push pull method that cinches the clip in a matter of seconds. I did several hundred in a few hours and then returned the next day and did several hundred more. All in all about 500 between the afternoon of one day and the morning of the next.

I will say that the first time I used them My fingers cramped up bad. It even felt like I had pulled something. So the second day I couldn't use brute finger force to make the wedge comply, that's when I found out how to do it with minimal effort.


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## Mickv

srwcontracting said:


> Couple Questions : TLS versus MLT
> 
> 1. Can you get more tension out of MLT?
> 2. In removing the caps on MLT, do you have to use tool or can you just Tap with hammer (not sure if it's recommended for TLS but that's the way I do it)
> 
> When I first tried a leveling system I bought RLS (and hated it!)
> Then invested in TLS. Been using for 2 years now and couldn't imagine working without
> 
> Debating on whether MLT is next?


The MLT bottom plate for porcelain is,rated at 38 kg of pressure before the pins are cut off.

A good waymto,remove the strap,an,quicker and less stressfull for the strap (much longer,life) is to remove cap, slide tool on top of strap, grip the strap and tension on number 1 setting and then gently rock back and forth in the direction of grout joints, the release is effortless.or you can snap it by leaving the cap on and on setting s on the tool. Make sure you clean your joints while mud is still wet, it will make your job easier then clean up the day after ; )
Thanks.

Mick.


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## Inner10

MLT is the best design hands down but it's to damn expensive.

The RLS tool is worth using, no question.


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## angus242

The funny part is you should be able to set tile WITHOUT any leveling system. Do a few jobs without one. Learn to appreciate what it takes to install tile flat.

Once you can do that, get a leveling system of choice to help you go faster. A leveling system doesn't make you a _better_ tiler, it makes you a _faster_ tiler.


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## JackP23

I've used both Tuscan and Tornado over the past few years. My distributor started carrying the RLS so I gave it a go. 

Loved it....I feel like it has a little more muscle if you need it....the spacer option is a fantastic time saver. (10x14 wall...simulated marble)

At the end of the day I feel the installation was just better with less effort.

I'm a fan of the RLS. The pricing sealed the deal! :thumbsup:


__________
Mike


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## Eaglei

All these tile leveling systems are nonsense and nothing but money makers for the sellers . Start with the proper substrate or correct it if its not . I'm all for new and improved but this just seems so Diy'er . I've never seen professional tile setters working in hotel lobbies or the like where the tile or marble is set to perfection using such a system .
It's jmo but it just looks so unprofessional .


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## GO Remodeling

I started with a perfectly flat floor. But then I woke up,lol.


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## TNTRenovate

Eaglei said:


> All these tile leveling systems are nonsense and nothing but money makers for the sellers . Start with the proper substrate or correct it if its not . I'm all for new and improved but this just seems so Diy'er . I've never seen professional tile setters working in hotel lobbies or the like where the tile or marble is set to perfection using such a system .
> It's jmo but it just looks so unprofessional .


Like Angus said they speed up production.


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## Xtrememtnbiker

Eaglei said:


> All these tile leveling systems are nonsense and nothing but money makers for the sellers . Start with the proper substrate or correct it if its not . I'm all for new and improved but this just seems so Diy'er . I've never seen professional tile setters working in hotel lobbies or the like where the tile or marble is set to perfection using such a system .
> It's jmo but it just looks so unprofessional .


Quite the opposite IMO. It looks like you care about your work and are willing to take the extra step to have a perfect floor. It could be a nice conversation piece to that could lead to a good referral. Ultimately, it's just making you be able to get a perfect floor faster. How's that a bad thing?


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## charimon

Eaglei said:


> All these tile leveling systems are nonsense and nothing but money makers for the sellers . Start with the proper substrate or correct it if its not . I'm all for new and improved but this just seems so Diy'er . I've never seen professional tile setters working in hotel lobbies or the like where the tile or marble is set to perfection using such a system .
> It's jmo but it just looks so unprofessional .


So If I understand you right. Are you suggesting ARDEX makes the best tile leveling system?

:jester:


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## Eaglei

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Quite the opposite IMO. It looks like you care about your work and are willing to take the extra step to have a perfect floor. It could be a nice conversation piece to that could lead to a good referral. Ultimately, it's just making you be able to get a perfect floor faster. How's that a bad thing?


Nothing wrong with speeding up production as long as quality doesn't suffer , but why not add men to the job if your looking to speed up production . I would think there more for a one man operation rather then for a crew of tile setters .


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## Xtrememtnbiker

Eaglei said:


> Nothing wrong with speeding up production as long as quality doesn't suffer , but why not add men to the job if your looking to speed up production . I would think there more for a one man operation rather then for a crew of tile setters .


I'm mostly laying bathrooms and the occasional kitchen, don't really want another guy. We have 3 other guys who all know how to lay tile. I still do most of the spreading and setting and one will mix, cut, etc. The others will be doing some other trade or at a different job.

But the point is, the result is a perfect floor faster than without a leveling system. What's wrong with that? Then you're on to the next job sooner which is good business.


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## Eaglei

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> I'm mostly laying bathrooms and the occasional kitchen, don't really want another guy. We have 3 other guys who all know how to lay tile. I still do most of the spreading and setting and one will mix, cut, etc. The others will be doing some other trade or at a different job.
> 
> But the point is, the result is a perfect floor faster than without a leveling system. What's wrong with that? Then you're on to the next job sooner which is good business.


When you've been doing something so long a certain way it's hard to change . If your relatively new to something it's easier to adapt . Just seems a little Diy'er to me . I do a lot of commercial work and believe me it would be frowned upon to use a leveling system . Like I said it's just my opinion . If I was to get my hands on a leveling system I would give it a shot to see what I'm missing .


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## PrecisionFloors

Eaglei said:


> When you've been doing something so long a certain way it's hard to change . If your relatively new to something it's easier to adapt . Just seems a little Diy'er to me . I do a lot of commercial work and believe me it would be frowned upon to use a leveling system . Like I said it's just my opinion . If I was to get my hands on a leveling system I would give it a shot to see what I'm missing .


And the only reason it would be frowned upon is ego. Leveling systems work, plain and simple. They help you achieve lippage free floors faster than you would traditionally. They don't make slabs flat. That's not their intention. 

Tile and stone setters are some of the most hard headed, can't teach old dogs new tricks, arrogant know it alls in the damned trades I swear lol. 

Anything that speeds up production and at least doesn't take away from quality of work, is a smart move (provided it is financially feasible), regardless of what some other dude in the trades might frown upon. While he's frowning, I'm grinning in the teller line at the bank


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## Mickv

Inner10 said:


> MLT is the best design hands down but it's to damn expensive.


Inner 10, as 18 cents per sq ft approximately of cost using the MLT is expensive? That is on a 24x24 , the larger the tile the cheaper it become per sq.ft .

Thanks.

Mick.


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## Inner10

Mickv said:


> Inner 10, as 18 cents per sq ft approximately of cost using the MLT is expensive? That is on a 24x24 , the larger the tile the cheaper it become per sq.ft .
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mick.


In the long run the MLT is cost effective, but I'm a hobbiest not a professional thus initial start up price is a big factor.


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## Mickv

Sure i understand. MLT was designed with the Professional in mind,long term use and enviroment friendly. We are finishing up a product that will be addressing the DIY market, it still will be eco friendly.

Thanks.

Mick.


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## Eaglei

PrecisionFloors said:


> And the only reason it would be frowned upon is ego. Leveling systems work, plain and simple. They help you achieve lippage free floors faster than you would traditionally. They don't make slabs flat. That's not their intention.
> 
> Tile and stone setters are some of the most hard headed, can't teach old dogs new tricks, arrogant know it alls in the damned trades I swear lol.
> 
> Anything that speeds up production and at least doesn't take away from quality of work, is a smart move (provided it is financially feasible), regardless of what some other dude in the trades might frown upon. While he's frowning, I'm grinning in the teller line at the bank


I totally agree with the hard headed know it all's:laughingoes it speed up production enough for someone who's been doing it the traditional way for say 25 yrs to invest in a system . Not every setter is looking to speed up production,especially if they're an employee .Honestly I'm on the fence with this , I'm trying to justify the initial expense . Percentage wise how much faster would you say it is using a leveling system . I also don't think an apprentice should use this system , they need to learn to work things out the traditional way and eventually use a leveling system .


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## Mickv

Eaglei said:


> I totally agree with the hard headed know it all's:laughingoes it speed up production enough for someone who's been doing it the traditional way for say 25 yrs to invest in a system . Not every setter is looking to speed up production,especially if they're an employee .Honestly I'm on the fence with this , I'm trying to justify the initial expense . Percentage wise how much faster would you say it is using a leveling system . I also don't think an apprentice should use this system , they need to learn to work things out the traditional way and eventually use a leveling system .


I agree with you, a tile setter should know how to set tiles without a system before get in to it. What this system do is just final tuning the last of the lippage. You DO have to collapse your ridges first and make sure you achieving full contact as possible wit the thinset\tile and the subflooring you installing to. The system will help with additional coverage (that is why thinset ooze trough grout joint sometimes.) You still have to prep the floor as you would do,otherwise. It is not a short cut, still ensure a better outcome then the traditional way and it easier on your stress and your body at the end of day, and more money in your pocket. MLT has been used already in commercial application with rectified edges large form tiles and reduce thickness tiles and panels.

Thanks.

Mick.


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## JackP23

For me personally these things came along just in time. I don't know about you folks, but I haven't put down a piece of 12x12 stone edge tile in years.

All my clients want the 12x24, 24x24, 6x24....planks with micro edges that chip if you just look at em wrong. Every other box is cupped like a mother. 

"Take it all the way up a 10 foot wall ......please Mr. contractor.....ya...the one with all the recess cans shining down"

Lippage just isn't an option with this stuff. 

I'm sure I would drink way more than I do without my LS. :whistling

Long live the leveling system!!!

:drink::drink::drink:

____________
Mike


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## tjbnwi

I looked at the RLS info on this website;

http://www.contractorsdirect.com/Tile-Tools/Tile-Leveling-Systems/Raimondi-Tile-Leveling-System

It states that the maximum joint width is 1/8". Is this the case or can you use spacers to achieve a 1/4" joint?

I have a large format floor and wall job coming up in 2 weeks, have to decided which system to choose. 

Tom


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## charimon

tjbnwi said:


> I looked at the RLS info on this website;
> 
> http://www.contractorsdirect.com/Tile-Tools/Tile-Leveling-Systems/Raimondi-Tile-Leveling-System
> 
> It states that the maximum joint width is 1/8". Is this the case or can you use spacers to achieve a 1/4" joint?
> 
> I have a large format floor and wall job coming up in 2 weeks, have to decided which system to choose.
> 
> Tom


I run RLS all the time with 3/16" spacers There is no reason why you can't go 1/4


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## tjbnwi

Thanks, figured you could use spacers, just wanted to get users experience.

Tom


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## nhill2090

Mlt is my choice as we'll out of the 3 systems I've used


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## EthanB

I saw that my local tile shop had the Rubi LS in stock so I picked it up to give it a try. My first impression is pretty good but it's pretty pricey at $.20-.25 per strip. The cups are reusable so that cost doesn't bother me, $100-125 will get you the tool and all the cups you're likely to be able to use in a day.

It looks like a pretty close copy to the TLS(assuming that came first). The strap bases have a bit of a hook on the ends but it's no where near as irritating at the Lash clips. I snapped a few trying to get a couple areas perfect and that always sucks. Installation speed was solid and pulling the system off the finished product and removing the straps was very quick.

My complaints would be:cost; the straps aren't available in different spacer thicknesses so you have to use spacers as well;







the straps work like a zip tie so you really have to decide if you can get that last notch or if it's going to be the one that breaks it.


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## Floormasta78

angus242 said:


> The funny part is you should be able to set tile WITHOUT any leveling system. Do a few jobs without one. Learn to appreciate what it takes to install tile flat.
> 
> Once you can do that, get a leveling system of choice to help you go faster. A leveling system doesn't make you a _better_ tiler, it makes you a _faster_ tiler.


says the guy pushing for HIS choice of leveling system ..


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## Floormasta78

SCREW THE DIY MARKET ... let TNT handle them... ! 

LOL !


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## TNTRenovate

Floormasta78 said:


> SCREW THE DIY MARKET ... let TNT handle them... !
> 
> LOL !


Not sure what that means, but I'll gladly take any customer who's check clears, DIY or not.

And this coming from a self proclaimed expert who can't answer his own questions and has never used RLS, but knows his system is better just by looking at it. And all this time I was looking at reviews of products and tools that had actually been tested by those who reviewed them.


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## angus242

Floormasta78 said:


> says the guy pushing for HIS choice of leveling system ..


For those who can't translate English into Spanish so well...I only made a recommendation, not a "push". 

For the dyslexic readers of the forum, I never said one system was better than another.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Just want to say thanks to Mick for the samples. Up close they are very nice. He sent me the 3 different bases, the green clamp part, straps, rubber foot and a tshirt and pencil. 

Got a job coming up I may be able to use them on so may have to place an order. Never tried another system but these seem very nice.


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## srwcontracting

Man, I didn't get a shirt with mine!

Tried them out on these 36" tiles
They are better than TLS
Bigger foot print and the straps definitely can take a lot more tension


guess I have another investment to make!


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## Inner10

Mine must have gotten lost in the mail!


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Mine took a while. Got it today.


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## TNTRenovate

I didn't get anything... go figure.


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## Nick1001

I just got mine today. Of course I finished up the 2 small floors I had to tile. I'll be able to try them in a week or 2 though.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

TNTSERVICES said:


> I didn't get anything... go figure.


Well your not a pro like us lot.


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## tjbnwi

I just purchased the RLS system, if I not happy with it I'll get the MLT system. 

Tom


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## Floormasta78

Guys, please have patience with Mick , he's a very busy guy , but will n never forget his promises..


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## Floormasta78

Damm picture is upside down.. that's a wall that is off. 12X24 rrectified tiles are being installed


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## Mickv

BCConstruction your bottom plate is assembled upside down

Inner10,TNT one of the qualities that definetely i dont have is being psichic unless you send me your address it is kind of hard for me to figure out your shipping address

[email protected]


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## Mickv

To clean strap and caps some of this crystal diluited in water and soaked for an hour or two will do the trick, they will be brand new each time


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## Inner10

Mickv said:


> BCConstruction your bottom plate is assembled upside down
> 
> Inner10,TNT one of the qualities that definetely i dont have is being psichic unless you send me your address it is kind of hard for me to figure out your shipping address
> 
> [email protected]


I was kidding Mick.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

Mickv said:


> BCConstruction your bottom plate is assembled upside down Inner10,TNT one of the qualities that definetely i dont have is being psichic unless you send me your address it is kind of hard for me to figure out your shipping address [email protected]


I wondered that.


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## MarkJames

Eaglei said:


> I totally agree with the hard headed know it all's:laughingoes it speed up production enough for someone who's been doing it the traditional way for say 25 yrs to invest in a system . Not every setter is looking to speed up production,especially if they're an employee .Honestly I'm on the fence with this , I'm trying to justify the initial expense . Percentage wise how much faster would you say it is using a leveling system . I also don't think an apprentice should use this system , they need to learn to work things out the traditional way and eventually use a leveling system .


I saw something about a family of Italian tilesetters where the elderly dad was dead-set against them "waste of money, been doing it for years, no-need, etc." The son (also experienced) insisted on investing in a leveling system for the family business and did so anyway. In the end, the dad was humbled and had to admit it was a smart move and worth it.


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## Mickv

Those damn hard heads Italians!:whistling


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## Floormasta78

I'm happy this is settled ........ NO PUN INTEDED:clap::clap::clap:


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## Floormasta78

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=882637488413404&set=vb.100000014848628&type=3&theater


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## fabrisale

*Try Profilitec Leveltec*

Leveltec a Revolutionary Levelling System. 1 Cap and 1 spacers. Permits you to cover from 1/8" to 24/32" Thile Thickness.
Levelling just with a click.

http://www.profilitecsolutions.com/eng/leveltec-how-it-works/


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## Nick R

What's your favorite thinset for leveling systems? First job I used rls on, I used ultralite on walls which was great. The floor I used ultraflex II mixed a bit thinner, which I didn't like too much. Next one I'm looking at 10" x 30".


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## Inner10

Nick R said:


> What's your favorite thinset for leveling systems? First job I used rls on, I used ultralite on walls which was great. The floor I used ultraflex II mixed a bit thinner, which I didn't like too much. Next one I'm looking at 10" x 30".


For the RLS to work your thinset has to be a touch loose. I'd choose your thinset based upon your application, not your leveling system.


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## TNTRenovate

Nick R said:


> What's your favorite thinset for leveling systems? First job I used rls on, I used ultralite on walls which was great. The floor I used ultraflex II mixed a bit thinner, which I didn't like too much. Next one I'm looking at 10" x 30".


Thin set is chosen based on application mixing a bit thinner than usual.


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## PrecisionFloors

Mixing looser can't be stressed enough. The first job I used the Tuscan system on I want aware of it and it cost me a few hours figuring it out. The other thing that can't be stressed enough is leveling systems of any flavor do NOT compensate for proper prep work.


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## TNTRenovate

PrecisionFloors said:


> Mixing looser can't be stressed enough. The first job I used the Tuscan system on I want aware of it and it cost me a few hours figuring it out. The other thing that can't be stressed enough is leveling systems of any flavor do NOT compensate for proper prep work.


Amen, amen, amen!


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## ROVACON

I have always used RLS with great results. Never tried the Tuscan system yet. Maybe when I run out of clips I will give it a shot. Maybe try the MLT as well.


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## PrecisionFloors

I think those Leveltecs look pretty interesting. I like the no tool aspect. If you can't buy em though..


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## TileWizard

I just ordered the rubi caps and straps. I already had the tool(got it for free). So i figure I'll give this leveling system a try. Everything I do these days is straight edge marble and rectified porcelain. I wouldn't mind a little help, tho it almost seems like cheating.


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## GenerationX

Quite happy about Tuscan, allthough I try to lay without it!


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## GenerationX

Leveltec looked great, just ordered 200 caps. 
The square feet price was 1/3 of the Tls.


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## GenerationX

Didn't quite like the leveltecs, the edges of the cap stops against the tiles. Quite annoying. Looks like Duplo :laughing:


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## srwcontracting

Do you just twist down on those?


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## GenerationX

srwcontracting said:


> Do you just twist down on those?


Yes, cheap and easy. Works well if its not facet


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## TaylorMadeAB

I just ordered the Montolit system, $40 for 500 clips, $20 for 100 wedges. I'll update after the first job with them.


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## TNTRenovate

TaylorMadeCon said:


> I just ordered the Montolit system, $40 for 500 clips, $20 for 100 wedges. I'll update after the first job with them.


I know they make tile tools, but I didn't know that they made a leveling system. Can't find anything on it. Got a link?


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## jb4211

TNTSERVICES said:


> I know they make tile tools, but I didn't know that they made a leveling system. Can't find anything on it. Got a link?


You're too invested in RLS now to turn back. lol

Edit: me too now


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## Stevarino

I just bought the riamondi system and have been very pleased and impressed. 

The price point is very affordable. It's a simple two part system and the wedge half can be reused. $140 set me up with 500 clips 250 wedges and the tool to tighten them. When I go to re-order (which I certainly will) I will only need to buy clips. 

I have been installing 18" tiles and only using one clip per side and there is practically zero lippage. I'm sold


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## jb4211

I haven't used it yet. But I'm starting a kitchen remodel on Monday: 14x14 floor tiles. That will be my first time using.
I already bought the set and pliars.


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## Xtrememtnbiker

It certainly is nice. Used it on this shower I just did.


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