# 1st BBB complaint.



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Here is the story. I registered this ladys warranty back in April. Turns out she never received the documentation from the manufacturer. Instead of calling me, she goes directly to the BBB. I find this frustrating. I gave her a call, told her I would look into it and for future reference, call me first. 

Lame.


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## jason. (Aug 18, 2010)

Wow that's unlikely, seems it would be easier for the customer to contact the contractor first. Hope it didn't hurt your rep too bad, good luck.


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## jackson27 (Feb 1, 2011)

You still have an A-. It may be worth it to become an Accredited BBB member.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

You are going to contact the BBB and get that to disappear right?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> You are going to contact the BBB and get that to disappear right?


That is my plan!


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## BayouBengal (Jan 11, 2011)

Mike Finley said:


> You are going to contact the BBB and get that to disappear right?


I'm under the impression that they won't make it "disappear."

I've had friends complain to the BBB about bogus complaints. The most the Bureau would do is not count it against your grade, but they still have to leave the complaint up with a note that it was resolved.

Some people will file BBB complaints over the most frivolous things.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Could be regional differences. I know it's possible to get stupid sh*t erased here.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

We had a bogus complaint filed against us. We explained to the BBB at the time that if this bogus complaint was put on record by the BBB and it affected our business that we would consider taking legal action against them as it was a matter of opinion, not to mention it was a false accusation.

They said that all we had to do was write a counter letter and that would be the end of it. 

We wrote the letter and that seemed to be the end of it but I'm still of the opinion that if they post unvalidated opinions they are opening themselves up for someone going after them for slander.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

An aside...didn't someone here post about someone (an ex-employee) filing complaints with the BBB that were showing up?

Anyone got a link? I'd love to see the resolve. (if it was posted)


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

And I remember Jason W.'s (still postin' here?) problems with the BBB.

Always sticks in my mind of the epic (BBB) failure example.


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

i had a bs complaint about me...see drywall cat lady in another thread here

contacted them and they said the same thing..just write a response letter and thats that

they agreeded it sounded pretty stupid

it was erased off our report

i do agree not contacting you directly over something that you can not control is bs


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

I hope your letter had better punctuation. :w00t:


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

yes it did

i really do not go out of my way on the web when its informal


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Just a thought...we're all hopefully interacting with other professionals. 

Don't lose any sleep over it, just a suggestion.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Rio said:


> We had a bogus complaint filed against us. We explained to the BBB at the time that if this bogus complaint was put on record by the BBB and it affected our business that we would consider taking legal action against them as it was a matter of opinion, not to mention it was a false accusation.
> 
> They said that all we had to do was write a counter letter and that would be the end of it.
> 
> We wrote the letter and that seemed to be the end of it but I'm still of the opinion that if they post unvalidated opinions they are opening themselves up for someone going after them for slander.





Rob PA said:


> i had a bs complaint about me...see drywall cat lady in another thread here
> 
> contacted them and they said the same thing..just write a response letter and thats that
> 
> ...


This is why I roll my eyes and shake my head everytime some dumb ass contractor posts something along the lines of the BBB being a scam.

They are PRO business, they are on your side. They will resolve things and protect your good name.

Try that with Angies List.  

One one phone they will tell you how they can't remove a bullsh*t review, and at the same time one of their sales people will be calling you on the other line to try to get you to advertise with them.

Complete Tards.

The BBB is on your side and in your court. The BBB is about people doing business with you. Angies you can go out and meet a complete A-hole, make the decision that you should not do business with this person and bow out as gracefully as you can, that person can get a bug up their ass and skewer you and Angies won't do a thing about it. If you don't actually do business with somebody I don't feel they have any right to do that. The BBB agrees.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Try that with Angies List.
> 
> Complete Tards.
> Angies you can go out and meet a complete A-hole, make the decision that you should not do business with this person and bow out as gracefully as you can, that person can get a bug up their ass and skewer you and Angies won't do a thing about it. If you don't actually do business with somebody I don't feel they have any right to do that. The BBB agrees.


yup, had an a-hole with bathroom call me and wanted an estimate as he wanted to make sure he was getting the best price. I asked him 17 different ways about his budget constraints and finally gave a 12k number, well from the scope and materials he wanted to use it was a 20-25k bathroom.

I told him the materials alone would be around 9k and that I dont buy jobs. Well he put a negative review on AL and they wont remove it. I called them and hammered them about WTH they would allow someone who dint even hire my company put a negative review.

Same old song and dance and i finally told them F-off. I used to get quality clients from AL but lately all bs like this kind of crap. 

Best part is 2 days later AL calls me for advertising, I was like WTF?:blink:

Oh and AL stop telling everyone that contractors are hungry and material prices are dropping. Make your sign up free and let us rate the clients and maybe I would think about using them again.:shifty::w00t:


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## Steep Team (Sep 6, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> This is why I roll my eyes and shake my head everytime some dumb ass contractor posts something along the lines of the BBB being a scam.
> 
> They are PRO business, they are on your side. They will resolve things and protect your good name.
> 
> ...


Dumb ass contractor postings aside, this contractor says BBB is a scam it's a pay to play scam the more you pay the better you play.
Take for example this link http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/07/hamas-gets-rating-bbb
"What’s clear as day is that the BBB does absolutely zero due diligence on the companies they grade. They mislead the consumer into believing some businesses are great when they in fact might not even exist, and that other businesses are frauds when they in fact are excellent businesses with a great track record of outstanding products, services and customer relationships.
The terrorist group Hamas received an A+ rating with the LA BBB. all someone had to do was pay the $425 and Hamas became an accredited business.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

What do you care if the BBB is a scam or isn't?

It's marketing for you, that's all it is. The BBB's audience is your customer, not you. The only thing that matters is customers perceptions of the BBB and nothing else.

Who gives a sh*t if Hammas is an AAA member? Or if the BBB is misleading the public. What's that got to do with *you*? All *you* should care about is Ma and Pa look you up on the BBB and call you because they believe in the BBB. What else would be relevant to the conversation?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Now, after you've taken a breath or two, look at the hundreds of thousands (or millions) of positive posts about the BBB.

Yes, I agree, they fvk up, but they fvk up a miniscule amount of time...it's going to happen with any (100+ y.o. company :whistling).

As most of us who have been in business for any amount of time, we should all know by now...bad news gets 10, 20, 100 times more press than the "regular/good" news, just the way society works.

Any negative stuff about the bbb is_ almost always_ spouted by 1) Businesses who have never been involved with the bbb...(except for Jason W. :laughing

and 2) Over a few of the same things that keep being repeated over and over and over and...ad nauseum.

Anyone who wants to cry foul or spout off about what they don't know, should volunteer to debate the facts...and say so openly.

I'm volunteering Finley as the "pro". :w00t:


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## JNB (Feb 10, 2011)

When I contracted in Cali I had a BBB sales guy stop by my job. I bought into it, but when it came time to renew I declined. I honestly never had any customer or potential customer inquire with BBB about my business (that I know of) the entire time I was with them, and we were busy as heck! Here in Texas it seems to be a bigger deal. No licensing and no regulation leave the customer with nothing else to make them feel...safe.


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## BayouBengal (Jan 11, 2011)

Steep Team said:


> "What’s clear as day is that the BBB does absolutely zero due diligence on the companies they grade. They mislead the consumer into believing some businesses are great when they in fact might not even exist, and that other businesses are frauds when they in fact are excellent businesses with a great track record of outstanding products, services and customer relationships.
> The terrorist group Hamas received an A+ rating with the LA BBB. all someone had to do was pay the $425 and Hamas became an accredited business.


For what it's worth, you're held to certain standards once you become BBB Accredited. If something about your advertising practices (for example) isn't Kosher, someone can call the BBB and report you. Then it's your responsibility to either change your practices, or lose your accreditation.

So while they don't seem to invest much stock into doing any type of background check on your business, they'll hold your feet to the flames if someone reports business practices that aren't consistent with their accreditation requirements.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

BBB Will not post a public complaint, before hearing your story and trying to rectify the problem between both parties. You will receive a notice to state your side of the story and find the best solution to work the problem out. If you cannot find the solution, BBB will offer a moderator to help you solve the problem, you will have to pay for the moderator service, unless you're a member... If you don't want to pay, then try to resolve the matter on your own.
The only time BBB will post the complaint, if after so many notices they don't hear from you, then they write you up.

Good luck :thumbsup:


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

*End of the BBB?*

Article in Remodeler . 

EDIT: It's an interesting article. Since BBB practices are "questionable" at times, like Steep Team mentioned, they did a sting on the BBB and joined as a terrorist group and ended up getting an A rating!


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Greg - I replied within minutes of my side of the story. I also called the lady and asked why she would write to the BBB instead of calling me first. Nothing has been posted yet but I also put in a call and have yet to hear anything back.


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## JNB (Feb 10, 2011)

Well, I maybe another one of those "dumbass contractors" that believes that the BBB *is* a scam, but I have personal experience to back it up. Years ago (and long before the internet), after performing my due diligence with a company rated A+ (maybe "Excellent" back then) by the Florida BBB, I purchased a franchise to supplement my concrete business. I, and twelve other contractors in the Los Angeles area were taken for 15k each. I believe the words used by the BBB guy I spoke to on the phone to describe the company were, "excellent track record." Turns out that the company didn't even own rights to the product that they were franchising. I made my money back applying the product I purchased, but an A+ rating?...my a**!

Unfortunately, it it all boils down to this...



> What do you care if the BBB is a scam or isn't?
> 
> It's marketing for you, that's all it is. The BBB's audience is your customer, not you. The only thing that matters is customers perceptions of the BBB and nothing else.


And that's a shame.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

JNB said:


> Well, I maybe another one of those "dumbass contractors" that believes that the BBB *is* a scam, but I have personal experience to back it up. Years ago (and long before the internet), after performing my due diligence with a company rated A+ (maybe "Excellent" back then) by the Florida BBB, I purchased a franchise to supplement my concrete business. I, and twelve other contractors in the Los Angeles area were taken for 15k each. I believe the words used by the BBB guy I spoke to on the phone to describe the company were, "excellent track record." Turns out that the company didn't even own rights to the product that they were franchising. I made my money back applying the product I purchased, but an A+ rating?...my a**!
> 
> Unfortunately, it it all boils down to this...
> 
> And that's a shame.


Oh jeeze. How about you tell us the rest of the story?


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Greg - I replied within minutes of my side of the story. I also called the lady and asked why she would write to the BBB instead of calling me first. Nothing has been posted yet but I also put in a call and have yet to hear anything back.


Just stay on top of it BamBam and you will come out on top. 

Good luck :thumbsup:


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## JNB (Feb 10, 2011)

> Oh jeeze. How about you tell us the rest of the story?


I believe I already did. That's pretty much it.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

JNB said:


> I believe I already did. That's pretty much it.


The rest of the story you are leaving out is -

You said you did your own due dilegence before you bought your franchise. Yourself and 12 other people were frauded by somebody. 

You expect the BBB to out perform the due diligence of 13 other people who had a personal vested interest in the matter?

You expect the BBB to root out fraud from somebody that you and 12 others failed to do.

You and 12 others with a vested personal interest who did their due diligence prior to investing their hard earned money couldn't detect the fraud, and you're upset that the BBB wasn't any better than you and your 12 peers??? 

You're making no sense.

The BBB is not a consumer watch dog agency with investigative journalists or detectives on the payroll. The system works like this - company signs up. If they don't do anything wrong they have a good rating. If somebody makes a report against them and they can't solve the complaint thier rating goes down.


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## JNB (Feb 10, 2011)

Mike Finley said:


> The rest of the story you are leaving out is -
> 
> You said you did your own due dilegence before you bought your franchise. Yourself and 12 other people were frauded by somebody.
> 
> ...


I didn't expect the BBB to outperform my due diligence, or root out fraud. They obviously don't vet companies before taking cash, and they will ALWAYS take the cash. 

I personally put no merit in the BBB's rating of the company I invested with, and it did not affect my decision to invest. Just sharing my personal observation.

I agree with you that it should be looked at as a marketing tool. For me, that's all it is. Your opinion may differ.

Edited to add: Does the name Better Business Bureau suggests that members are better businesses? I believe so, and I also believe that is the general public's perception of the BBB. 

You said it here:


> The only thing that matters is customers perceptions of the BBB and nothing else.


That very perception makes them a scam, in my personal opinion. They are on the side of business, because businesses pay them.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

The only thing I can tell you is the same thing over again -



> The BBB is not a consumer watch dog agency with investigative journalists or detectives on the payroll. The system works like this - company signs up. If they don't do anything wrong they have a good rating. If somebody makes a report against them and they can't solve the complaint thier rating goes down.


The publics perception of the BBB is based on their history and mostly advertising campaigns.

Just like you. You know how you and every other contractor advertises the same thing? -- Quality... blah blah blah.... We build with quality... quality installations... guality in our work... quality.. quality... quality...

Do you have the word quality on your business card, truck, anywhere else?

vast majority of contractors quality doesn't match the perceptions they try to present to customers.

Advertising >>>> perception.

Also, curious if you said you didn't expect the BBB to vet your franchise who committed fraud why did you bring it up as an example of them doing something wrong??

As I said, you couldn't even figure out you were dealing with a fraud, yet you expect the BBB to have, when that isn't even anywhere relevant to what they do.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

You just can't help yourself Mike...



Me neither, every once in awhile...

http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53959&highlight=business+bureau

The majority of BBB members are not the BS'ers that make the news, i.e. storm chasing roofing co's., etc. They're individuals/businesses that want their potential clients to associate what they (the clients) perception of what the BBB stands for, to be associated with their business.

I go above and beyond what the BBB advertises (even if the BBB is BS)...that's what I want my potential clients to know about me.

Just like every other group, be it individuals or organizations, there are going to be bad apples. If you can judge a group by the few bad members more power to ya....it's a little shortsighted you'll find though.

Again, it's advertising what I already stand for, and what a lot of the public perception is of the BBB.

If and when that perception of the BBB changes among consumers, it gets real easy for me...I stop writing the check every year.

Not real hard to understand if you try to. 

------
I think I referred to a post of your's here somewhere in the thread.

Most people won't get it though, but it's fun messin' with 'em. :laughing:


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## JNB (Feb 10, 2011)

> Also, curious if you said you didn't expect the BBB to vet your franchise who committed fraud why did you bring it up as an example of them doing something wrong??


Wow, I had to edit the crap out of this post...must need more coffee. Mike, I don't think you are getting the just of my post. I was playing it out from a consumer's / customer's view. They perceive that somehow BBB members are "BETTER", and they're not. You and I both know that.

I personally understand that the BBB did nothing wrong. I know that they are a pay-to-play business, and that's all. I do "get it". My personal opinion of the BBB doesn't mean that they can't be used as a marketing avenue.


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## bender_dundat (Feb 20, 2011)

I have to agree with Mike. The BBB is what it is or is what you make it out to be. For us, it is simply an other form of advertising. There is no question in my mind that it has many limitations. Frankly, most of those limitations are limitations to the consumer. 

I'd also argue though the BBB has value. I can't speak for everybody but given we value our flawless BBB rating, we would bend over backwards to resolve an issue, even if the complaint was somewhat flawed. I look at it as a cost of doing business or even an additional advertising cost.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

I agree with Jay, I have been a Member with BBB for sometime now and it it always paid off. I have been getting lots of high end work through them, because it seems high end customers and most white color client-ell check BBB site before placing a call when looking for a contractor or local businesses, it gives them a piece of mind. Most consumers know that is the only agency where people turn to get help or file complaints,frauds,etc.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I hear you guys.

You can lead a contractor to water but almost all of them will stand there, keel over and die before they drink it cause they just all know better.

If contractors could learn just one thing to be successful it would be :

Emulate successful businesses outside of contracting .


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## RhodesHardwood (Jun 28, 2010)

Just respond to the BBB and get everything taken care of with the client and you can make it go away. Or at least make it say the issue was resolved.


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

Whats failed to be mentioned is that you agree to arbritrate when you join the BBB. Therein lies the problem. True story. We were members and thought nothing of this clause as all our jobs finished well and why not use it as a marketing tool? It only takes one. We did a nice kitchen remodel and included were 6 panel oak doors/jambs, and casings. At about the 3rd day the homeowner started whining about anything possible, door clearence was too much, different cabinet doors not matching, etc. We bent over backwards but it seemed the homeowner's goal was simply to drive the men and the office into utter chaos. We were paid in full at completion and recieved a registered letter approx 3 wks later claiming one of the men had damaged the edge of a laminate counter (full round). I inspected the jobsite and suggested it could possibly be the hardwood finisher. I also reminded the homeowner that at a walk thru she had us on our knees showing me where the counter substrate overhung the cabinet was approx 1/2" that was raw material which I agreed to have my painter stain the cabinet color. She would not accept my answer, rang the BBB and next thing I know an Arbritation is schedualed for a $1400.00 claim. I showed up on time but noticed they had been meeting for some time. Hmmmm. Well some unqualified guy not even in our industry of course found us to blame. I will never forget returning to the office and having to tell my parents I had lost. We wrote the check that day and cut our losses but that was neither fair or impartial.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

The BBB is essentially a boiler room operation using many of the un-savory practices it claims to defend against---( more about that in a minute)

As a legitimate,quality contractor--- you don't ever need to be afraid of the BBB---- but you should never pay them a single dime----ever!.

Once a consumer makes an inquiry about your company---- the BBB will open a file---and contact you asking for some basic info.---- fill the info out completely.
the BBB will mainbtain a file---and RATE you----weather you are a member or not-----so it is completely possible to maintain an excellent rating with the BBB without ever paying them a single $

If you do a large enough volume of business---or remain in business long enough---some one WILL complain eventually to the BBB.
when the BBB contacts you--- get in touch with the BBB promptly and ask for a copy of the complaint. If the complaint is valid---as a legitimate business--- you will of course want to take care of it immediately.--- If the complaint is NOT valid---don't worry. Send the BBB a copy of your contract/proposal with the customer, photos,reasoning etc. WHY the complaint isn't valid.--- document any and all efforts you have made to resolve the issue---and in general go over and above what is reasonable----- but you don't need to" give in" or bend over for the complaintant if you are in the right.
The BBB will maintain your high rating---and at worst--- for a short period of time the BBB will report that you had a complaint against your company---AND THAT YOUR COMPANY WAS RESPONSIVE TO THE CONSUMER COMPLAINT.--- Basically it's a win/win for you.

earlier i mentioned that the BBB was basically a boiler room operation--- here is why I KNOW that to be the case.
After I had been in business for a number of years the BBB contacted me and invited me to join. the "salesman" came out and met with me and told me to my face--- that my company had more inquirys from consumers than ANY other roofer in town---and yet I had ZERO complaints against me---and so the BBB felt I was EXACTLY the upstanding type of business they were looking for.
Being young and stupid i fell for it---and put up the money to join.

A year later it was time to renew---the same salesman came out to meet with me---and I mentioned our previous conversation---- the salesman then proceeded to look me in the eye and tell me " I never said that---- I would never make such a statement"----so basically I knew he was lieing to me at that time---OR was lieing to me a year previously--- because he had certainly made the statement to my face.

Every year for a number of years they would contact me---and try to get me to re-join. One day I was roofing a 4plex---and one of the occupants came out and told me she recognized my name--- because untill recently she had worked for the BBB. she went on to describe the boiler-room operation( her EXACT words)-- the fee structure, the complaint resolution system etc.---and she told me exactly how to handle the BBB, without ever spending a time and maintaining a consistantly excellent rating.

Keep in mind that the BBB exists soley to make money off of YOUR good work ,good ethics and subscriptions. the consumer doesn't pay a dime----and neither should you.

very best wishes,
stephen


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

So I finally get the BBB to call me back. Says there is nothing they can do to remove it but it won't affect my grade.

Then they tried to sell me on being accredited.


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