# Investors approached me today about building spec homes



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Electricians are not licensed by the state...
> 
> But yes I am, and we have been around and around as to why. If their work is inspected there is no reason for a license. The Attorney General of the state handles any and all fraud claims.


So the part about Illinois not needing licenses isn't entirely true. And some cities require GC licenses in Illinois as well.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Texas requires some licensing as well. In fact you have to be registered as an apprentice plumber. Not to mention certified as a Journeyman and licensed as a contractor. They also require an electrical license. So the part about Texas not needing licenses isn't entirely true either. 

A GC license in Cali allows me to do electrical, plumbing and roofing and everything in between without using a sub. I can build skyscrapers if I wanted.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> Texas requires some licensing as well. In fact you have to be registered as an apprentice plumber. Not to mention certified as a Journeyman and licensed as a contractor. They also require an electrical license. So the part about Texas not needing licenses isn't entirely true either.
> 
> A GC license in Cali allows me to do electrical, plumbing and roofing and everything in between without using a sub. I can build skyscrapers if I wanted.


Nobody has ever denied that your state has stupid laws.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> So the part about Illinois not needing licenses isn't entirely true. And some cities require GC licenses in Illinois as well.


The STATE does not require a license. I didn't say that other municipalities don't. But that doesn't change my stance nor does it mean that I was misleading anyone.

Chicago requires a license, but it does nothing but collect money. The city is well known for it's fees and license taxes.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> The STATE does not require a license. I didn't say that other municipalities don't. But that doesn't change my stance nor does it mean that I was misleading anyone.
> 
> Chicago requires a license, but it does nothing but collect money. The city is well known for it's fees and license taxes.


Roofers? Plumbers?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Texas requires some licensing as well. In fact you have to be registered as an apprentice plumber. Not to mention certified as a Journeyman and licensed as a contractor. They also require an electrical license. So the part about Texas not needing licenses isn't entirely true either.
> 
> A GC license in Cali allows me to do electrical, plumbing and roofing and everything in between without using a sub. I can build skyscrapers if I wanted.


The topic was requiring a license to build a home Mike, not plumbers, not electricians. So EVERYTHING I said was ENTIRELY true. GC's do not need to be licensed by the state to build a house. Looks like most large cities require you to register, but no real "license".


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Roofers? Plumbers?


Like I said, it's about requiring a license to BUILD A HOME. I can build a home without a license. Now my plumber and Roofer better have one, but I don't have to have one.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> The topic was requiring a license to build a home Mike, not plumbers, not electricians. So EVERYTHING I said was ENTIRELY true. GC's do not need to be licensed by the state to build a house. Looks like most large cities require you to register, but no real "license".


How do you do any plumbing in your state without a plumbing license especially when you do a lot of bathrooms and kitchens?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> How do you do any plumbing in your state without a plumbing license especially when you do a lot of bathrooms and kitchens?


What's your point? This isn't about me remodeling, it's about the statement Brad made about not having a license and the corners that would be cut. As I have stated before, if the projects are inspected there are no corners to be cut, therefore no license needed.

As for me, I have to hire a licensed plumber to do my plumbing. Which I do. My current plumber is Ken from Pure Plumbing. My last plumber was John from Homework Plumbing and I have tried one other in the past year. I follow the laws in my state Mike, I just don't defend them like you do. I don't like them and don't think that they are necessary.

Certifications, trade associations and trade schools would satisfy me for plumbers and electricians. Those would all be private organizations ensuring quality, not more gov't bureaucracy. That's why I have joined NARI and will be joining a few others.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What's your point? This isn't about me remodeling, it's about the statement Brad made about not having a license and the corners that would be cut. As I have stated before, if the projects are inspected there are no corners to be cut, therefore no license needed.
> 
> As for me, I have to hire a licensed plumber to do my plumbing. Which I do. My current plumber is Ken from Pure Plumbing. My last plumber was John from Homework Plumbing and I have tried one other in the past year. I follow the laws in my state Mike, I just don't defend them like you do. I don't like them and don't think that they are necessary.
> 
> Certifications, trade associations and trade schools would satisfy me for plumbers and electricians. Those would all be private organizations ensuring quality, not more gov't bureaucracy. That's why I have joined NARI and will be joining a few others.


It was just a question. I don't defind anything I learn to make money on them. That's all I've ever said and that's all I'm saying now. But you think Lawyers should be licensed. So you can't do a bathroom or a kitchen without a license. Will i guess you can paint it and do the tile. I can do what I want and anything I want without hiring a sub. I like that better than your situation.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> It was just a question. I don't defind anything I learn to make money on them. That's all I've ever said and that's all I'm saying now. But you think Lawyers should be licensed. So you can't do a bathroom or a kitchen without a license. Will i guess you can paint it and do the tile. I can do what I want and anything I want without hiring a sub. I like that better than your situation.


So you can do electrical work of any size without having gone through an electrician apprenticeship?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

EricBrancard said:


> So you can do electrical work of any size without having gone through an electrician apprenticeship?


As long as I do two other trades I can take on a prime contract for electrical. My electricians have to all be certified. The license holder doesn't need to be certified, nor does a licensed electrician. The certificate is for workers. It's regulated by the department of industrial relations. Just like I'm exempt from OSHA regs as the business owner. It's all about worker saftey not whether or not it's done correctly, that's checked by building official.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> As long as I do two other trades I can take on a prime contract for electrical. My electricians have to all be certified. The license holder doesn't need to be certified, nor does a licensed electrician. The certificate is for workers. It's regulated by the department of industrial relations. Just like I'm exempt from OSHA regs as the business owner. It's all about worker saftey not whether or not it's done correctly, that's checked by building official.


Since it's so different all over, what does certified mean where you are? Does that mean the person performing the work has to have X amount of hours in a program, passed tests, etc?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Existing law requires that persons performing work as electrician under a C-10 licensed contractor be certified pursuant to certification standards established by the Division of Labor Standards Enforcement. “Electricians” is defined as all persons who engage in the connection of electrical devices *for* electrical contractors licensed pursuant to Section 7058 of the Business of the business and professions code. [Labor Code § 108 (c)].

If I do at least two trades on the project I am free to do them all. The only thing I can't do is fire sprinklers or wells.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

A GC in Cali is a Critical license. 

7057. (a) Except as provided in this section, a general building contractor is a contractor whose principal contracting business is in connection with any structure built, being built, or to be built, for the support, shelter, and enclosure of persons, animals, chattels, or movable property of any kind, requiring in its construction the use of at least two unrelated building trades or crafts, or *to do* or superintend *the whole or any part thereof.*

This does not include anyone who merely furnishes materials or supplies under Section 7045 without fabricating them into, or consuming them in the performance of the work of the general building contractor.

(b) A general building contractor may take a prime contract or a subcontract for a framing or carpentry project. However, a general building contractor shall not take a prime contract for any project involving trades other than framing or carpentry unless the prime contract requires at least two unrelated building trades or crafts other than framing or carpentry, or unless the general building contractor holds the appropriate license classification or subcontracts with an appropriately licensed specialty contractor to perform the work. A general building contractor shall not take a subcontract involving trades other than framing or carpentry, unless the subcontract requires at least two unrelated trades or crafts other than framing or carpentry, or unless the general building contractor holds the appropriate license classification. The general building contractor may not count framing or carpentry in calculating the two unrelated trades necessary in order for the general building contractor to be able to take a prime contract or subcontract for a project involving other trades.

(c) No general building contractor shall contract for any project that includes the "C-16" Fire Protection classification as provided for in Section 7026.12 or the "C-57" Well Drilling classification as provided for in Section 13750.5 of the Water Code, unless the general building contractor holds the specialty license, or subcontracts with the appropriately licensed specialty contractor.

(Amended by Stats. 1997, Chapter 812 (SB 857).)


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

So you as MJW can pull the permit for the job, but you as Mike can't physically pull wires, hook up a panel, etc? Am I understanding that correctly?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

EricBrancard said:


> So you as MJW can pull the permit for the job, but you as Mike can't physically pull wires, hook up a panel, etc? Am I understanding that correctly?


Nope I as Mike the owner and licensed GC can pull wires, set the panel etc. I as MLW can't have an employee do it without the employee being certified. 

I cannot however take on a prime contract for just electrical. I can however take on the GC contract which is defined as doing at least two trades other than framing on the job. Then I can build a skyscraper without any subs. Except fire sprinklers.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

The part about needing to do two trades is to prevent me from advertising as an electrical contractor and only doing electrical. I believe it's to protect the C classes from the B.


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## mtb (Oct 11, 2012)

My understanding is he can personally but if he hires a worker to do it they have to be certified or a lisenced electrical contractor... 

But I'd rather hear more about building specs, as I'd like to get into that when I have the funds together. This exact argument was just beaten to death in another thread. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

So for example, if I paint the baseboards and do a drywall patch, I can do all the plumbing and electrical in house.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> So for example, if I paint the baseboards and do a drywall patch, I can do all the plumbing and electrical in house.


Got it. Interesting. Much different than here.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

EricBrancard said:


> Since it's so different all over, what does certified mean where you are? Does that mean the person performing the work has to have X amount of hours in a program, passed tests, etc?


I believe it's real stringent here. They need to get re certified every so often. They also have to take an exam and show so many hours. Unless you have a contractors license then there is no cert for the license holder.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> It was just a question. I don't defind anything I learn to make money on them. That's all I've ever said and that's all I'm saying now. But you think Lawyers should be licensed. So you can't do a bathroom or a kitchen without a license. Will i guess you can paint it and do the tile. I can do what I want and anything I want without hiring a sub. I like that better than your situation.


It's never just a question with you Mike.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

EricBrancard said:


> Got it. Interesting. Much different than here.


It's confusing. Here's my law books.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Yeah, that's so much better than hiring the right guys to do their part. I hire them. They charge me. I mark it up and charge the client. Done.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Yeah, that's so much better than hiring the right guys to do their part. I hire them. They charge me. I mark it up and charge the client. Done.


I can hire the right guys too if I choose. The point is I have the choice. I'd say whenever you have more options that's better. 

I can legally change a toilet and not have to pay a sub to do it. Or install the outlets. Nice to have that option. Once your licensed here that's it. Nothing for the rest of your life except 160.00 a year. And I can work anywhere in the state without issue. I think it's better than paying a bunch of different cities and going through thier individual hoops. I'd rather go through it one time and that's it. Also liability insurance isn't required here either. Although I've got it.


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## Brad Gunn (Aug 18, 2015)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I ask again, how do we do it here in Illinois or Texas for that matter without a license?


Don't know how you do it in Illinois; doesn't change what I think about California without licensing.

Actually, if you want to explain how the Illinois system works, or why it's better than California, that's ok with me, I have no quarrel there.

I have lived in rural areas of socal where people build their own stuff and/or hire unlicensed GC's to add-on, re-build, re-pipe and re-wire. Unlicensed GC's handymen and well meaning but uninformed HO's don't get permits or call for inspections.

Buildings fall down and burn down. People get hurt. Sometimes people don't pay, sometimes people take of with the money.

Licensing - imperfect system that it is - serves to protect the public.
Inspectors and AHJ's are not responsible for code compliance: they will tag anything they see that's out of code, but ultimately the GC has final and total responsibility for code compliance. 

I guess that's why they make the licensing a big deal. 

This was my comment at the end of that post: _Hate to see bureaucracy drag people and trade down_:no:


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## james.work.90 (Feb 3, 2015)

I echo AllenE comments. I won't repeat his comments again but take it from someone who has built more homes than most of the people on this thread. I run a fairly large company in two states and I started with bootstraps and got some deals like this along the way. Take the 50 percent and save and invest it so one day you've got the 70 lots AND you're building them. If these guys have 70 lots they've earned their way to where they are and if you have a relationship with them that can be a huge opening for you. I still do deals with guys that own lots or subdivisions thst need to be better marketed, different product, etc. I don't have to but I CHOOSE to because I understand the money I can make by doing so. Yes they're going to sit in their office and collect 50 percent but they have hardly done nothing. Everyone has to get there somehow and this could be a great opportunity for you. Go for it and just be smart about structuring the deal. Send me a message if you need some help in that regard. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Brad Gunn said:


> Not only would codes and laws and insurance be ignored, but good, experienced, responsible contractors would have to compete against every body who owns a skilsaw and maybe a truck.





Brad Gunn said:


> Don't know how you do it in Illinois; doesn't change what I think about California without licensing.
> 
> Actually, if you want to explain how the Illinois system works, or why it's better than California, that's ok with me, I have no quarrel there.


My point was, how would a license prevent what you listed?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I can hire the right guys too if I choose. The point is I have the choice. I'd say whenever you have more options that's better.
> 
> I can legally change a toilet and not have to pay a sub to do it. Or install the outlets. Nice to have that option. Once your licensed here that's it. Nothing for the rest of your life except 160.00 a year. And I can work anywhere in the state without issue. I think it's better than paying a bunch of different cities and going through thier individual hoops. I'd rather go through it one time and that's it. Also liability insurance isn't required here either. Although I've got it.


Difference you are forced into the option. You have no options. You have to get their license.

I can legally do some plumbing and electrical.

What individual hoops do I have to jump through?

If you do business in LA don't you have to register with the city and pay your business tax?

Again, for someone who doesn't defend the license you sure are trying to make some good points in it's favor.


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## Brad Gunn (Aug 18, 2015)

TNTSERVICES said:


> My point was, how would a license prevent what you listed?


Well, I was actually responding to your question _"how do we do it in Illinois."_

My post was about California, so I gave some background on why I feel that way and why I think licensing helps - didn't say "prevents" You didn't quote that part of my post, so I'm thinking you're more into your long-running thing with Mike than with my opinions about Ca.. That's ok.

But, if you accept my anecdotes about life in rural Ca, if I'm right about the interpretation of GC ultimate responsibility here, maybe you can see why I think that licensing contractors, in California, helps protect the public.

Again: _ Hate to see bureaucracy drag people and trade down_:no:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Difference you are forced into the option. You have no options. You have to get their license.
> 
> I can legally do some plumbing and electrical.
> 
> ...


I don't ever have to register anything. I can work in any County without getting a business license. 

You still have to have a license to do your baths and kichens. That's my point. I get one license and can build the Trump Tower all in house. Either way we both need at least one license.


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

From what I have seen, working for The Donald can be hard on a guy.


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## mtb (Oct 11, 2012)

Do you guys hear black sabbath when your writing your posts? Sometimes it's so loud I have trouble reading... 
Going off the rails on a crazy trai-ain... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I don't ever have to register anything. I can work in any County without getting a business license.
> 
> You still have to have a license to do your baths and kichens. That's my point. I get one license and can build the Trump Tower all in house. Either way we both need at least one license.


I am just going by what LA's website states:

Registering Your Business
The City requires that every person engaged in any
trade, occupation, profession or other means of
livelihood in the City of Los Angeles obtain a Business
Tax Registration Certificate (BTRC), and pay the
required business tax. This may also apply to firms or
contractors located outside city boundaries who
perform work within city limits. Some exemptions are
‐*9*‐*
available for some new and small businesses.

I don't need a single license Mike. I could do bathroom remodels all day long without ever needing a license. Only if I wanted to move plumbing or electric.

And if I did what you did, I wouldn't ever need one. I can build decks all day long without one.

I don't need it, but I use them to do what I want to do. That doesn't mean that I agree with it, nor will you ever hear me list any benefits from the system.

While you could build the Trump Tower, you would have to do it yourself anyone you hired would have to be certified. So you have to be licensed and use certified employees. Or am I missing something?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am just going by what LA's website states:
> 
> Registering Your Business
> The City requires that every person engaged in any
> ...


I've never worked in LA in my life.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am just going by what LA's website states:
> 
> Registering Your Business
> The City requires that every person engaged in any
> ...


Nope. No one I hired would have to be certified except electricians. That's it not plumbers not anyone else.

The reason electricians need certs is for cal osha. Something about electricity is a danger to workers.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am just going by what LA's website states:
> 
> Registering Your Business
> The City requires that every person engaged in any
> ...


I do business outta Yorba Linda, I pay a yearly business tax. That's it.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Brad Gunn said:


> Well, I was actually responding to your question _"how do we do it in Illinois."_
> 
> My post was about California, so I gave some background on why I feel that way and why I think licensing helps - didn't say "prevents" You didn't quote that part of my post, so I'm thinking you're more into your long-running thing with Mike than with my opinions about Ca.. That's ok.
> 
> ...


I left it out because it wasn't relevant. You say that there are people using unlicensed hacks in the rural areas, and then say that a without a license "Not only would codes and laws and insurance be ignored, but good, experienced, responsible contractors would have to compete against every body who owns a skilsaw and maybe a truck."

So with the license requirement you still have unlicensed hacks. So I ask again, how does requiring a license prevent codes and laws and insurance being ignored?

Therefore I can't see how it protects the public. The licensing requirement hasn't stopped them. You guys have just drank the koolaid and think that you need it and couldn't survive without it. Same thing as the union mentality. Without the union there would be no middle class. There would only be hacks. Blah blah blah.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I do business outta Yorba Linda, I pay a yearly business tax. That's it.


So you do have to register with a local municipality and if you decided to do work in LA or other communities that required you to register you would have to jump through the same hoops I would if I decided to work in another town.

BTW, Naperville doesn't require me to register or pay a tax. So you have more hoops to jump through than I do.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You are the one diminishing the cert by saying it's just OSHA stuff, when it includes electrical knowledge.
> 
> These hardly have anything to do with SAFETY:
> 
> ...


Wtf difference does it make what they are required to know to get certified? The argument stands I don't need to be.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> And officers aren't always considered employees.


Your point? Never said that they did.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Wtf difference does it make what they are required to know to get certified? The argument stands I don't need to be.


You made it Mike. You tried to diminish it by saying it was just OSHA stuff they had to know. You insinuated it had nothing to do with electrical competency. That's what difference it makes.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Double post


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You made it Mike. You tried to diminish it by saying it was just OSHA stuff they had to know. You insinuated it had nothing to do with electrical competency. That's what difference it makes.


You don't need a cert for low voltage


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You are the one diminishing the cert by saying it's just OSHA stuff, when it includes electrical knowledge.
> 
> These hardly have anything to do with SAFETY:
> 
> ...


No cert for cat6.

Certification is required only for those persons who perform work as electricians for contractors licensed as class C-10 electrical contractors under the Contractors' State License Board Rules and Regulations. *Certification is not required for persons performing work for contractors licensed as class C-7 low voltage systems* or class C-45 electric sign contractors as long as the work performed is within the scope of the class C-7 or class-45 license, including incidental and supplemental work as defined in Section 7059 of the Business and Professions Code, and regardless of whether the same contractor is also licensed as a class C-10 contractor.

Labor Code section 108 (c)

As used in this section, "electricians" includes all persons who engage in the connection of electrical devices for electrical contractors licensed pursuant to Section 7058 of the Business and Professions Code, specifically, contractors classified as electrical contractors in the Contractors' State License Board Rules and Regulations. *This section does not apply to electrical connections under 100 volt-amperes.* This section does not apply to persons performing work to which Section 7042.5 of the Business and Professions Code is applicable, or to electrical work ordinarily and customarily performed by stationary engineers. This section does not apply to electrical work in connection with the installation, operation, or maintenance of temporary or portable electrical equipment performed by technicians in the theatrical, motion picture production, television, hotel, exhibition, or trade show industries.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You made it Mike. You tried to diminish it by saying it was just OSHA stuff they had to know. You insinuated it had nothing to do with electrical competency. That's what difference it makes.


I never once said or insinuated it had nothing to do with electrical competency. Im not responsible for your assumption. It should be ASSUMED that in order to be safe with electrical you need to be competent. Now that we've established low voltage doesn't need a certificate to be an electrician.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Not enough man power to realistically do it yourself. Hell you wouldn't be able to lift the ground wire required for the Trump Tower. You couldn't do it all yourself.


I don't need a certified electrician to lift anything. I used to work for a commercial electrician. The biggest in SoCal at the time. I was a laborer. I did all that lifting that isn't an electrical saftey issue. Keep trying!

go ahead make it about my exaggerated example of building the Trump tower. That's all you have! I get it. :laughing:

But theoretically I could do the electrical by myself. All the lifting done by laborers. Zero certified electricians. May take me 50 years, but it could be done, in theory! :laughing:


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## Brad Gunn (Aug 18, 2015)

TNTSERVICES said:


> My point was, how would a license prevent what you listed?


Might be your point, but it wasn't your question.

Look, I started this thing with my opinion about licensing contractors in California. I re-read my initial post, my response to your challenge. and the next. All looks about right to me. 

You're arguments don't convince me that we'd be better off without a licensing structure here in this state. 

There's signs all down the highway that set a speed limit. So scrap the speed limit because lots of cars go faster than that? Maybe in Montana (might be wrong about that) but with millions of cars on socal roads, I think speed signs and the highway patrol contribute to public safety. Likewise, state licensing for contractors.

My description of some of the problems associated with un-licensed contracting seems relevant to the the point I was making, although I can see that they aren't to whatever point you want to make. 

_"You guys have just drank the koolaid" _ That's just you having some fun, right?


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

So long as:

a) A home owner has the right to construct their own dwelling
b) pursuant to code requirements as administered by AHJ

Then the rationale for GC proof of trade skills is onerous.

A license to conduct business, uniformly applied, is all that is needed.


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## Brad Gunn (Aug 18, 2015)

SmallTownGuy said:


> So long as:
> 
> a) A home owner has the right to construct their own dwelling
> b) pursuant to code requirements as administered by AHJ
> ...


Happy to report that a and b above are alive and well in California.:thumbsup:

But the next part isn't clear. Are you saying that because HO's are allowed to build (for themselves) then it follows from that the whole trade should not be regulated? 

I don't see the connection there, and I don't get the "onerous" part. 

Then again, you might not be responding to my post at all. 

Funny you bring up Business License. I've mentioned before that I ran a garage door business for years: more of a service trade. Phone rings, make the deal right there, price and schedule. There's over 80 separate cities in this county, they all want several hundred bucks for working in their jurisdiction - sometimes more than I would make on the job. Now _that's_ onerous.:sad:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> You don't need a cert for low voltage


Its on the test. Proving is more than an OSHA safety test.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> My point was, how would a license prevent what you listed?


Actually I did. Then you said you never said it prevented anything. Which is exactly the implication. 






Brad Gunn said:


> Might be your point, but it wasn't your question.
> 
> Look, I started this thing with my opinion about licensing contractors in California. I re-read my initial post, my response to your challenge. and the next. All looks about right to me.
> 
> ...


Your anaoglies are not relevant, just like the ones Mike uses. Did you know why we had a 55mph speed limit. It wasn't safety, but fuel economy.

Your description is relevant but it doesn't prove that a piece of paper prevents or guarantees anything. Everything that you or Mike list about a the benefits of a license is can be achieved without another layer of gov't and gov't regulation. Like I said over heard the same lame reasons why union is superior to non union.

I'm not trying to combine you at all. Like a union guy you are sold on the idea.


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## Brad Gunn (Aug 18, 2015)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Actually I did. Then you said you never said it prevented anything. Which is exactly the implication.


Actually, you didn't. Your question was_ "how does it work in...."_ I said I didn't know, invited you to explain.

Next post you pretend my post is about_ prevention_: sorry, hoss, public safety is my theme.

I think you use "you guys" "_you and Mike_" only about four times, so it's good to know you're not lumping us together.

Yeah, I remember when _Jimmy Carter lowered speed limit to 55_. Before that it was set at 65, sometimes 70, in California, then it reverted to state controlled at 65, some places 70. Public safety.

Never been my theme that _"piece of paper "_ guaranties anything. That's just your usual argument, or what you argue against. Doesn't belong here.

Nothing about _unions_ in my posts: I can do that someday if you like.

_"Benefits of a license can be achieved etc etc_" I invited you to explain, first line above, my first response to your first challenge.

Starting to wonder if you might be one of those guys that likes to argue, not discuss. No offense, just look at this list of stuff that's off topic, mis-quoted, mistaken, and personal.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Its on the test. Proving is more than an OSHA safety test.


You can work on anything under 100v without a cert. Proving it's for saftey.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Brad Gunn said:


> Actually, you didn't. Your question was_ "how does it work in...."_ I said I didn't know, invited you to explain.
> 
> Next post you pretend my post is about_ prevention_: sorry, hoss, public safety is my theme.
> 
> ...



I actually did ask it...and I quoted. It wasn't first question but I certain DID ask it. I even quoted it.

I didn't pretend anything, you said:

"Here, "unlicensed" would probably include "owner builder". Not only would codes and laws and insurance be ignored, but good, experienced, responsible contractors would have to compete against every body who owns a skilsaw and maybe a truck."

That implies that with the license codes and laws and insurance wouldn't be ignored. No pretending, those are your words.

You bring up speed signs to prove your point, I bring up unions. I guess I should say that I never said anything about speed signs?

I have already explained how it works in IL, many many many times. I don't need a license. I apply for the permit. My electrician needs a local license. My plumber needs a state license. Both of which I comply with but don't agree is necessary to ensure quality or knowledge. Certifications and PRIVATE organizations could handle any knowledge based concerns.

Our Attorney General takes care of any fraud claims. They make it easy to file a claim. Also, with the number of review sites as well as the BBB, fraud can be easily exposed and disputes resolved.

Insurance is something that a HO should be checking. It's not hard, just a single phone call.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> You can work on anything under 100v without a cert. Proving it's for saftey.


No it doesn't. But even then I don't need the low voltage. You conveniently left out the other questions that I posted that have nothing to do with low volt or OSHA safety regulations.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Damn. We need a program here so I can tell who is married to who in this thread.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

TNTSERVICES said:


> No it doesn't. But even then I don't need the low voltage. You conveniently left out the other questions that I posted that have nothing to do with low volt or OSHA safety regulations.


Bs. It's about workers saftey. It's why is regulated the department of industrial relations the same department as CAL Osha. They want everyone to be an electrician that does electrical. Pretty simple! That includes some basic low voltage. 

However there's a big difference between needing to know low voltage to get approval for a cert. And needing a cert to do low voltage. They didn't just pull the "you can work on anything without a cert under 100v" out of their ass.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

So Rob you can't do a shower without calling a plumber? You can't do a bath floor without calling a plumber because you don't qualify for a plumber license? Bummer. Sounds to me like your license requirements suck. :laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> So Rob you can't do a shower without calling a plumber? You can't do a bath floor without calling a plumber because you don't qualify for a plumber license? Bummer. Sounds to me like your license requirements suck. :laughing:


Everytime you say how does Illinois get by without licensing, I'm going to ask this question. :laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> So long as:
> 
> a) A home owner has the right to construct their own dwelling
> b) pursuant to code requirements as administered by AHJ
> ...


When you hire a licensed contractor in cali they are guaranteed and verified to have at least 7 years in their respectful trade. I say 7 because you need to be a journeyman for four years to qualify for a license. That has to be proven with pay stubs and tax documents. And has to be signed off by another contractor.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> When you hire a licensed contractor in cali they are guaranteed and verified to have at least 7 years in their respectful trade. I say 7 because you need to be a journeyman for four years to qualify for a license. That has to be proven with pay stubs and tax documents. And has to be signed off by another contractor.


So illegal contracting is virtually nonexistent in CA?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> So illegal contracting is virtually nonexistent in CA?


Every LICENSED contractor is experienced.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> So illegal contracting is virtually nonexistent in CA?


There's a law against murder but murder still exists. Not sure your point. Show me any law that makes its crime non existent.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

james.work.90 said:


> I echo AllenE comments. I won't repeat his comments again but take it from someone who has built more homes than most of the people on this thread. I run a fairly large company in two states and I started with bootstraps and got some deals like this along the way. Take the 50 percent and save and invest it so one day you've got the 70 lots AND you're building them. If these guys have 70 lots they've earned their way to where they are and if you have a relationship with them that can be a huge opening for you. I still do deals with guys that own lots or subdivisions thst need to be better marketed, different product, etc. I don't have to but I CHOOSE to because I understand the money I can make by doing so. Yes *they're going to sit in their office and collect 50 percent* but they have hardly done nothing. Everyone has to get there somehow and this could be a great opportunity for you. Go for it and just be smart about structuring the deal. Send me a message if you need some help in that regard.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


50% of what?


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> Every LICENSED contractor is experienced.





Californiadecks said:


> There's a law against murder but murder still exists. Not sure your point. Show me any law that makes its crime non existent.


In California then:
Only one time must a person demonstrate some arbitrary metric of competency. Forever after, no matter how much knowledge or standards change, they are still "good to go".

No amount of "experience". assures competency of a GC. What benefit is it to the public that someone has pulled wire for 20 years, but is still clueless the structure they are erecting is sound?

No amount of licensing or testing assure competency in the field.

*Inspectors that regularly attend school to keep apprised of changes are the only way to assure safe buildings.
*
As long as it remains possible for even one homeowner in California (or any other state) to build their domicile WITHOUT licensing - that in and of itself discredits any useful rationale for licensing.

I claim that unlicensed contracting is rampant in California - just as it is in every other state that requires licensing matched to testable standards - just because ultimately, those using the illegal contractors know its cheaper, and also know once it's inspected and approved, who dunnit doesn't mean squat.


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## AllanE (Apr 25, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> 50% of what?


50% of the profits made from building the houses on the 70 lots. Sales Price-Land-Construction Costs-Marketing Costs-Financing Costs=Profits.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> In California then:
> Only one time must a person demonstrate some arbitrary metric of competency. Forever after, no matter how much knowledge or standards change, they are still "good to go".
> 
> No amount of "experience". assures competency of a GC. What benefit is it to the public that someone has pulled wire for 20 years, but is still clueless the structure they are erecting is sound?
> ...


No one ever made the claim all licensed Contractors in Cali are competent. However you are guaranteed to get a contractor with a Journeyman level of experience if they are licensed. Yes they will have that Journeyman level of experience for the rest of their life! :laughing:


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

AllanE said:


> 50% of the profits made from building the houses on the 70 lots. Sales Price-Land-Construction Costs-Marketing Costs-Financing Costs=Profits.


That's one method. Don't know if it's the same idea that "james.work.90" has in mind, nor if it's the same as the OP was presented with.

And it still doesn't address whether onsite staff/insurance etc is considered part of construction costs.

"50 percent" is a bull**** figure. The devil is ALWAYS in the details.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> No one ever made the claim all licensed Contractors in Cali are competent. However you are guaranteed to get a contractor with a Journeyman level of experience if they are licensed. Yes they will have that Journeyman level of experience for the rest of their life! :laughing:


A by God journeyman AND incompetent.

hmmm

Oh I've never seen THAT.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> In California then:
> Only one time must a person demonstrate some arbitrary metric of competency. Forever after, no matter how much knowledge or standards change, they are still "good to go".
> 
> No amount of "experience". assures competency of a GC. What benefit is it to the public that someone has pulled wire for 20 years, but is still clueless the structure they are erecting is sound?
> ...


No this does not assure safe buildings. I've seen many buildings that were unsafe that passed inspection. 

Again there is zero guarantee someone will do a good job but it's more likely someone with confirmed years of experience will. More so than someone with zero experience. It's an odds game. Even with inspector's. They don't always get it right either.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> No this does not assure safe buildings. I've seen many buildings that were unsafe that passed inspection.
> 
> Again there is zero guarantee someone will do a good job but it's more likely someone with confirmed years of experience will. More so than someone with zero experience. It's an odds game. Even with inspector's. They don't always get it right either.


No, it's not an odds game. It's an accountability issue.

As long as a property owner can build their own domicile and yet be required to meet all local standards and codes, then experience on the part of the contractor isn't the issue.

Competency at the plan review/inspection level does matter - all else is bull-****-ery.


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## AllanE (Apr 25, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> 50% of what?





SmallTownGuy said:


> That's one method. Don't know if it's the same idea that "james.work.90" has in mind, nor if it's the same as the OP was presented with.
> 
> And it still doesn't address whether onsite staff/insurance etc is considered part of construction costs.
> 
> "50 percent" is a bull**** figure. The devil is ALWAYS in the details.


Well of course when you are talking partnerships there are details on both sides to address but for experienced builders and developers these details can be agreed upon. Sounds like an opportunity for the OP to pursue, especially since he has a long history with the developer. These type of deals are done all the time.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

The test and experience is required to get the license. After that the board regulates how money exchanges hands. And contract law. If someone qualifies for a license and does shotty work that's a civil case or the local AHJ. Just like with a lawyer or any other profession. A lawyer will need a degree and pass the bar exam. Doesn't mean he's competent. If someone rips a customer off that is within the boards enforcement jurisdiction. 

So a HO is most likely not going to rip himself off. And yes it is an odds game. The board probably doesn't get any complaints about owner builders. Probably because an owner builder won't complain about himself. 

Their are 1 million contractors in Cali. I'll bet there are just a small fraction of owners builders. The boards job is to protect consumers. Not protect a consumer from himself. They expect an owner builder will probably be honest with himself.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

AllanE said:


> Well of course when you are talking partnerships there are details on both sides to address but for experienced builders and developers these details can be agreed upon. Sounds like an opportunity for the OP to pursue, especially since he has a long history with the developer. *These type of deals are done all the time*.


Yes they are.

It's easy to see the upside. It's the downside that gets overlooked until it's too late.

I see *those* types of deals done all the time.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> The test and experience is required to get the license. After that the board regulates how money exchanges hands. And contract law. If someone qualifies for a license and does shotty work that's a civil case or the local AHJ. Just like with a lawyer or any other profession. A lawyer will need a degree and pass the bar exam. Doesn't mean he's competent. If someone rips a customer off that is within the boards enforcement jurisdiction.
> 
> So a HO is most likely not going to rip himself off. And yes it is an odds game. The board probably doesn't get any complaints about owner builders. Probably because an owner builder won't complain about himself.
> 
> Their are 1 million contractors in Cali. I'll bet there are just a small fraction of owners builders. The boards job is to protect consumers. Not protect a consumer from himself. They expect an owner builder will probably be honest with himself.


"As long as a property owner can build their own domicile and yet be required to meet all local standards and codes, then experience on the part of the contractor isn't the issue."


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> No, it's not an odds game. It's an accountability issue.
> 
> As long as a property owner can build their own domicile and yet be required to meet all local standards and codes, then experience on the part of the contractor isn't the issue.
> 
> Competency at the plan review/inspection level does matter - all else is bull-****-ery.


No, many inspectors are very incompetent. I know much more about my position than 95% of all my inspectors. As I should it's all I do. I've had a 26 year old inspectors before. Tells me he's not old enough to have a lot of experience. In fact I had to walk him through the inspection to show him what he should be looking for. He looked up to me as his mentor.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> "As long as a property owner can build their own domicile and yet be required to meet all local standards and codes, then experience on the part of the contractor isn't the issue."


The CSLB is ran by the department of consumer affairs. An owner builder isn't a consumer. That's the point. No need to protect his money from himself. 

Requiring experience for contractors is a way of protecting a consumers money. Not guaranteed, but it's more so than an unexperienced contractor. 

Again the HO doesn't need his own money protected from himself.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> No, many inspectors are very incompetent. I know much more about my position than 95% of all my inspectors. As I should it's all I do. I've had a 26 year old inspectors before. Tells me he's not old enough to have a lot of experience. In fact I had to walk him through the inspection to show him what he should be looking for. He looked up to me as his mentor.


Most inspectors around here ARE competent. After all, they should be, it's all they do.

I had to wait 45 minutes or so last Tuesday's office meeting, because my architect is also an AHJ, and was late getting back from his once a month continuing education class.

When I was A 26 YO wet behind the ear kid, it was those experienced inspectors who held my hand and made me look good (not to mention kept my bacon out of the fire). 

Bring the inspectors up to speed and those pesky contractors won't be getting away with crap.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

If they pay you per house for your labor, plus 50%, sounds like it might work out.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Brad Gunn said:


> I kept wondering if Mr Gallden was still with us.
> Hats off to Edwards and Work for staying with the OP.
> 
> I think the problem started when I innocently responded - on the 3rd page - to framer53 _"I cannot imagine what socal would look like w unlicensed contractors!"_
> ...


Just another CT thread. Sometimes the train has to hop on the highway for a bit before finding the tracks again.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

EricBrancard said:


> Just another CT thread. Sometimes the train has to hop on the highway for a bit before finding the tracks again.


It's a fun train to ride tho! Lots of info between the highway and the tracks!


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## Brad Gunn (Aug 18, 2015)

jlhaslip said:


> So now you are taking one of them home???
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbup:


Nah, but I can cut them some slack on Mike's say so.:thumbsup:


_Actually Rob and SmallTownGuy are good guys and I consider them friends. they are also very witty and I respect that.
__________________
Mike -_


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Brad Gunn said:


> Nah, but I can cut them some slack on Mike's say so.:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> _Actually Rob and SmallTownGuy are good guys and I consider them friends. they are also very witty and I respect that.
> ...


You are a wise old man! I know who's who around this place. If you want my black list just pm me. :laughing:


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