# How many years did it take you to turn a profit?



## DecksEtc

This thread is going to get good - I can't wait!!!


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## mahlere

paintguy, don't get annoyed....the 3 yrs is just a guess. But the other post is correct. If Rookie knows that he need's $35k in a month to cover his nut, but they can only product $18k, it doesn't add up. Because if he subs out the remainder, his costs just went up. He probably needs to do $40k+ to make up the extra cost.

There are guys who understand it, there are guys who get it and then there are guys who accomplished it.

When we started our residential service company, we started with $12k in CC debts. In the first 12 months, we paid back the debt, started to keep a steady bank account of about $10k. Paid our suppliers every month, bought a 2nd new truck, etc.

There are ways to save money, there are ways to make money, and their are ways to do both.

trac leasing put us in brand new vans with no big capital expense. It did take us about 3 yrs to be able to cover health insurance ($14k/yr for me, my wife and my son) and it took about 4 yrs to take a good pay rate ($70K+/yr) for myself and my partner.

We did a lot of COD work in the beginning, this helped us cover all our costs and make a little extra.

And plus Paintguy, no lie, in the past 10 yrs, I have been able to put myself and my employees to work 5 days a week making revenue. We have had short days, there have been slow days, but there hasn't been a day that we didn't have something to work on. But then again, we are an electrical service company, who spends several thousands of dollars a month on advertising in order to do this.

So, don't get pissed, don't get angry, try to figure out what other guys are doing. Because there are many who are 'doing it'

Good luck.


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## Richard

Mahlere- 
I heard a lot of "we" in your post. I'm one guy. A bunch in here are. Some of you act so "superhuman" when you answer. I am learning as I go, to some degree. I'm not some joker though. Very respectable people in the community have always told me I would make a great business man. I never even thought about running a company of my own, but I'm here. I'm refining everyday. I'm learning everyday. There are great days, there are not-so-great days. I'm real. I'm realistic. I'm human. I get annoyed, like a human. Do you not get annoyed? Read the quote under my posts. I follow that


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## mahlere

"we" didn't really start out as we. But from day one, I always said "we". It was a frame of mind that I had. "We" started out as me, with a little help from my father. (but he was doing his own thing) Now "we" are a "we", does that make sense?

do yourself a great favor, in some of your downtime, head over to www.pmmag.com, register for free, and read everything you can find from Frank Blau, Maurice Maio, Ellen Rohr, Randall Hilton and the rest of the columnists. You will learn more about running a successful service company (and that's what you are) from these columns, than you will from just about anyplace else.

Good luck.


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## Richard

thanks for the site- I'll check it out. 

You answered my thoughts though. Your father helped and now works with you. Correct? Your dad probably taught you what he knew? Or some of what he knew? You were able to mix ideas and techniques? You are BOTH advertising _personally_(talking to general public daily) to get more business?

No dad here. Just a hard working single mom. Dad's never been around my whole life. No one to 'teach me his ways'. No one to bounce feedback off. No one to 'help' me. No one to give me security. No 'we'. Never has been. (I'm not looking for pity in saying this-just stating the facts)

You guys with many resources and dads/friends/family backup have not one clue about someone like me. There is no one to rely on. It's all me. 

Please understand me, I am not trying to make a fight or insult personally. But, I have friends who are so spoiled and cocky because they never had it hard (or had to create something from nothing). They dont rely fully on their parents, but they can always fall back on them. They grew up in a house, not an apt. They always had enough. I've always told them, they just dont get me sometimes. There like, huh? I say, exactly.


*my wife is a great support to me-just thought I'd add.


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## dirt diggler

DecksEtc said:


> This thread is going to get good - I can't wait!!!


HAHA 

I've got 3:1 on 4 pages
2:1 on 5


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## BRNDIVY

When my husband and I started our business, we did it slow by keeping our regular full time jobs and scheduling work on the weekends or during early evenings. There were a couple credit cards maxed out to get us going and we were "cash customers" to our suplliers in the begining. Being a cash customer at first cost us more money but it prevented us from being up to our eyebrows with debt. Within 6mo, we had the bulk of our start up expenses paid off, our first truck and machine paid in full, and began subbing out some work to keep up. It was at that point, we had to make a decision whether to keep going the way we were going or jump into the business with both feet. We chose to jump in with both feet. By the 7th mo, we were at our break even point and have been showing steady profit since.

They say that most businesses take a loss for the first few years. so I wouldn't give up just yet.

A couple of tips:
1. Do more of the labor yourself- Saves on labor costs. You will always end up paying more for subbed out work
2. Compare prices..Don't be loyal to just one supplier. Every supplier has products that you use cheaper than the next guy. Make a list of regular items that you buy, where you bought it, and the price. I bet you that buying even just one item from someone different will save you money.
3. See where you can cut costs- Do you really need all those wireless minutes, 2nd phone line, etc.?
4. Get referals- A happy client will always pass your name along
5. Trade Associations- Small investment with big returns.
6. Cheap Advertising- You don't need to spend a fortune. My advetising budget is roughly 2400.00 per year. I probably could cut some of that out myself
7. Budget your time- Qualify potential clients via phone before running every estimate. You will most likely weed out just about every tire kicker...It will save on gas too.

I'm quite certain that I have forgotten something, but you get the picture.


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## Mike Finley

Paintguy26 said:


> Some of you guys say things that are just hard to believe. Are all of you guys who say things like this fed with a silver spoon or something. Like that other guy who said he never went without work for 1 day in 18 years. No offense, but BULL.
> 
> Just makes me wonder how much help you had in the beginning then, to say such big statements.


It all depends on what you are doing and where you are going. For some guys how can they not be profitable from day one. Word of mouth, a beat up truck, a job here and there, no expenses, they are profitable from day one or two. I may not ever be profitable because I take every profit and throw it back into the business, I've even been known to do a cash call on my self and deposit 4-5 thousand into the business in order to do something. 

Read about Richard Branson of the Virgin companies, he wasn't profitable for about 25 years!


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## George Z

Paintguy 26,
It's been about 20 years with me. I have been where you are for maybe
the last 15. I am mostly happy with where I am now but as I said, its been a long 15 years and maybe 4-5 easier ones.
Instead of re-inventing the weel forever, I stumbled across the internet and found great help.
Discussion boards like this one and others have been a lot of help.
I will mention some names from this board: Prowallguy, Brian, Finley, Grumpy and many others have helped by generously sharing their resources or by sharing their experience. You are here already, so you are way ahead of your competition already.
You are a painter. It is not very lonely out there as you think.
What about NAPP or even the PDCA. Paint contrators that join and
particitate in their activities are usually much better for it.
My company is now back to five full time people on payroll including me.

By the way, we sometimes means same person wearing different hats


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## George Z

Another thing too.
As you have noticed people have their opinions and sometimes
their advice is wrong, sometimes right. You make the call.
For example: previous post says do the work yourself.
I say, since I stopped painting I never looked back.
Different opinions, research well and decide yourself.


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## BRNDIVY

George Z said:


> Another thing too.
> As you have noticed people have their opinions and sometimes
> their advice is wrong, sometimes right. You make the call.
> For example: previous post says do the work yourself.
> I say, since I stopped painting I never looked back.
> Different opinions, research well and decide yourself.


 
Are you implying that doing some work yourself is a bad thing? If not, I apologize for reading you wrong.
Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to get ahead. Now, I'm not one to sling a 36' extension ladder over my shoulder (couldn't do it if I wanted to, anyway  ) or hang off the edge of a roof. But, if the company I invested a lot of time and energy into was in trouble some way, I would be out in the field doing whatever I can to help until things got better.


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## dirt diggler

Rookie said:


> We have been in business for almost 22 months now.. Started the business on around $24,000... Today that $24,000 is gone and we are in the red to suppliers by about $40,000.. Our average COGS is right at 60%.. Our fixed expenses are $4000/month... Our salaries are $8000 a month... Our finanance charges are currently at about $1000/month... Our break even point right now is right around $35,000 in gross sales per month...
> 
> We may possibly have an investor willing to give us another $50,000 to use as capital and get us out of the hole a bit... My question is are we where we should be... How long did it take you to start turning some decent profits?? Is taking this $50,000 only delaying the inevitable that we arent going to make it... The crew we have right now can produce on a good month about $15,000 - 18,000 a month in production... I can hit the $35,000 figure in sales... Only problem is that I have to sub out $20,000 of that figure in order to get that much production done in a month... Right now the only subs I have do vinyl siding and roofing.. Being in Ohio, the weather doesnt allow for much of either for the next 3-4 months... At $50,000 a month in gross sales we only profit $6,000 an that is saying that we can actually complete that much work on month... Should we go back to working regular jobs or should we keep grinding away and try and make this work? Will it work? How long did it take to work for you?



_We may possibly have an investor willing to give us another $50,000 to use as capital and get us out of the hole a bit... My question is are we where we should be... How long did it take you to start turning some decent profits?? _

You're going to let someone give you $50,000 and YOU do not know the answer to that question?? ?? ?? ??

And worse, someone is willing to give you $50K and YOU do not know the answer to that question?? ?? ?? ??

Aside from trying to crunch numbers for you (some of the above information is too unclear for that), I think Teetor's on the money(and someone else said it too) --- yeah, it seems as if ya'll jumped in waaaaay too quick. waaaaaaaay too quick. I dunno though, maybe that's not the case --- but with the info you provided, it seems that way.

at any rate, you owe 40K to your suppliers. Your suppliers will not let you carry on much longer with that kind of debt. How in the world did they let you amass that much debt in the first place. How in the world did you let yourself amass that much?? If you're unable to pay for materials ... most likely means you never included the cost of materials in your estimates/contracts. I'm just speculating on that.

You have a fixed monthly of 4000. Salaries of 8000. Whether or not these salaries are your employees or for you, well, doesn't really matter (you still need money to take care of "personal" business). So let's say that is $12,000 monthly fixed. Is there more? 

So bam --- 12K out the door each month before it even gets there. Then, 40K in debt that you DO owe. 

here's what is not clear: your crews are producing 15-18K a month. Is this net [pre tax net] or gross?? I hope it's net. And if you're spending 20K on 35K jobs for subs (what about materials???) then that I guess is still 15K. Again, this whole section is unclear --- but are you saying you're getting a pre-tax net of 15K a month???? With 12K overhead??? Can you even make the taxes on that???

something tells me that you're in the red for more than just 40K owed to suppliers ... whether you know it or not


_Honestly.. Yeah I did... But I always had this dream that would keep me up at night when I would be going to bed for that $70k job... At this point though I just don't know if we can make it work.. I have plugged every number I know foward, backward and upside down and none of them are looking very promising... My dad isn't so sure he wants to continue and it has been so bad recently that we haven't had steady paychecks.. My brother wants something that is more consistent.. And I can't lie I would like something that is consistent myself... But I also don't want to look back a few years from now and go ... "Damn, I wonder what could have been"..._

(i still don't know how to break quotes apart from other threads)

Ok --- judging from this post here ... all three of you don't even have the right attitude to begin with to even turn things around. "I want something a little more consistent." You've got stomach the inconsistency --- that's something all three of you needed to swallow before Day One.

"I wonder what could have been." Please. You're 40K+ in the hole and you're still in dreamland??

I think your situation is one that definitely CAN be turned around. It's like you all are on an airplane and one of the engines just blew out. And it's losing altitude fast. The pilot got shot or bit by a snake (ugh, terrible movie) and now you need someone to land the plane.


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## George Z

BRNDIVY said:


> Are you implying that doing some work yourself is a bad thing? If not, I apologize for reading you wrong.
> Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to get ahead. Now, I'm not one to sling a 36' extension ladder over my shoulder (couldn't do it if I wanted to, anyway  ) or hang off the edge of a roof. But, if the company I invested a lot of time and energy into was in trouble some way, I would be out in the field doing whatever I can to help until things got better.


It depends what you want to be doing. I know people have to eat.
For example, if I don't want to paint anymore, I won't.
I was saying that since I stopped painting, business took off and never looked back.
The way things are snowballing right now:
I can almost get as much work as I want, when I want, hire as many people as I like to 
and grow my company as much as I like.
And my margins still 50%
Any reason why I should paint? If I still liked it I would, but I had enough.


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## Rookie

dirt diggler said:


> _W_ I think your situation is one that definitely CAN be turned around.


How?


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## BRNDIVY

George Z said:


> It depends what you want to be doing. I know people have to eat.
> For example, if I don't want to paint anymore, I won't.
> I was saying that since I stopped painting, business took off and never looked back.
> The way things are snowballing right now:
> I can almost get as much work as I want, when I want, hire as many people as I like to
> and grow my company as much as I like.
> And my margins still 50%
> Any reason why I should paint? If I still liked it I would, but I had enough.


I think you are ready way too much into my posts..You aren't the one who came looking for advice. And you don't have 40K+ in debts over your head that can't be paid, right? Noone suggested that you need to get off your butt and do some manual labor or find ways to cut costs to save your company. There has been a lot of practical advice given in this thread and like I said, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to get out of a bad place.


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## dirt diggler

Rookie said:


> How?


well, your first post needs clarification.... you're [writing] back and forth between net and gross (or it seems like it... )

and what do you do anyways? Are you a GC??? Why did you have to spend 24K in startup?

gotta go to work for now


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## George Z

BRNDIVY said:


> I think you are ready way too much into my posts..You aren't the one who came looking for advice. And you don't have 40K+ in debts over your head that can't be paid, right? Noone suggested that you need to get off your butt and do some manual labor or find ways to cut costs to save your company. There has been a lot of practical advice given in this thread and like I said, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to get out of a bad place.


That's fair


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## Rookie

dirt diggler said:


> well, your first post needs clarification.... you're [writing] back and forth between net and gross (or it seems like it... )
> 
> and what do you do anyways? Are you a GC??? Why did you have to spend 24K in startup?
> 
> gotta go to work for now


 We do fencing, and interior remodeling... We have subbed out siding and roofing.. Our $24,000 we started with was lost in a partnership that went bad.. Basically we were used to get this gy out of a hole and when the money was gone so was the partnership (long story).. The numbers I am giving you are all gross numbers.. What you read below this is basically me jouranling what is going on right now.. Tell me what you think...

Since I met with Gabe and Dad last week they apparently have done some thinking and are unsure if they want to continue doing this… During this same time I have met with the accountant and done some serious number crunching… We have figured out what our average cost of goods sold are, what are fixed expenses (overhead) are and what our salaries are for a given month…



In order for us to break even we need to gross $30,000 a month in sales… I can sell that much work in a month… I have averaged pretty close to that (best month being $54,000) since we have been in business and that is with me doing more than just sales… Between my dad, Gabe and Adam there is no way that they can even do $30,000 worth of work in a month.. That leaves us to subbing out a pretty good amount of work… We are then relying on someone other than ourselves to generate enough income to keep us going… We have good siding subs, we have decent roofing subs… We do not have any reliable subs in any other trades.. Going out in getting these subs is a long process and you are still not guaranteed to find subs that will pan out… Siding is pretty much dead in the winter as you cannot cut vinyl in freezing temperatures (it shatters).. SO there goes turning some of that work over to siding subs… Roofing is a liability as if the work fails it comes back on us to fix it and pay for any damage the leak may have caused.. ( We are going back and fixing one this week that was done by our old crew)… 



My dad told me last night he doesn’t feel that he can physically do the work anymore… He said that Gabe and Adam know a lot but are not fast or efficient enough to do interior remodeling on their own and that he (dad) has no desire to just stand there and guide them… He said they are best suited and most efficient at production type work such as fencing and decking… Well guess what, fencing and decking are pretty much dead in the winter too… I have had all of 3 fencing leads come in in the last 2 weeks… I have had one siding lead come in in a month and it wasn’t even for vinyl siding it was for concrete siding.. Something that our siding sub has only done a few times …. I have however received numerous bathroom remodel leads, kitchen remodel leads and plenty of basement remodel leads…. I told my dad this last night… He said not to get any of them, that he isn’t sure what he wants to do and that Gabe has told him he isn’t sure either…. 



This meeting WAS to figure out what to do from here, how to make this work… I have been working on making a business plan to bring to an investor to get the money we need to move forward… The accountant and I worked on something called a Pro-Forma on Monday… This is were we went back over the last year and figured out where we have been making money, what all of our expenses are, what we need to make to be profitable… I have spent all week so far trying to put all of these numbers together and make a good looking proposal to give to an investor and the more I crunch these numbers the more I become discouraged… Our guys cannot do enough work to make what we need to make… The type of work we can do and make money at doesn’t go on in the winter… My dad isn’t even sure if he wants to continue… Gabe isn’t sure if he wants to continue…I think and I hope my dad and Gabe understand that this does not fall all on my shoulders… That there are a long list of reasons that this hasn’t been working… There is no question that I should have been honest with them about how bad it has gotten… But it is a combination of things that has gotten it to this point… And not all of them are my fault


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## john elliott

One thing that every body needs, be it in business or whatever, is luck. Without it you are going nowhere.

An example was given above- Richard Branson. He had the good luck to be the person that Mike Oldfield brought his Tubular Bells album to. That is luck. You might say that he put himself in the position to receive that luck, and that would be true. A lot of business stuff is all about putting yourself in the right position to receive the good luck without which you are going to find it very difficult
John


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## dougchips

Rookie said:


> Trust me it's not fun.. I went from a job making about $70k a year to do this... In your opinion do I keep at it or call it quits... Do you need any other info to give me your assesment? If so I can answer anything you need to know...


I tell my new hires the same thing every time "some people make great doctors, some people make great lawyers and some people make great door & window installers. A great doctor might make a crappy door installer. It is not a measurement of intelligence, either you are great or will need to find a new job".

You problem could be one of the following 3 things;
#1. You production is to slow.
#2. You do not charge enough labor to cover your overhead and profit.
#3. You are in the wrong business.

Ask you last 10 jobs how you bid matched the other bids, if it was too low the you have your answer. If the bid was one one the higher ones every time then your problem is #2 or #3.


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## IHI

Let me first say there is alot of good advise on here, once you figure out who to listen to and who just posts to post...quite a few folks here that in many opinions dont belong or have failed at their attempts and then come on here trying to make themselves sound high and mighty...you will learn these folks in due time should you stick around.

We were once in the same situation. I've been doing this type of work for years, buddy of mine (brother like relationship) was stuck in a dead end job, I was wanting to grow so we talked about going into a partnership under a new name and starting from scratch. Now, I grew up with my grandfather in this business and started doing it (sub-contracting when I was 18) so I had more than enough experience under my belt to know times are good, they're really good, but when it's slow it's really slow. After many sit down with my buddy prior to starting the paperwork process to proceed I thought he understood full and well, starting from scratch with nothing other than tools and desire-it was going to be really tough for along time until we established ourselves which I told him could honestly take upto 4-5years since we were a new start up with no customers, no leads, etc...relying on freinds/family to generate work...ie NO advertising budget either-nothng but trying to bust azz and do good enough work to build a customer base.

Long story short, that fall as work slowed and we were living job to job barely making salary my buddy gets cold feet and said this is the worst thing he's ever done...but yet he would not listen to me in the fact this was up to US to make it work...not just me, so he could either keep crying about how slow we are, or do something to generate leads. His mind was made up so I basically contacted the lawyer who drew up the buy out and I had him sign off. He was happy, I was left with vendor debt that took me another year to work out of.

So here I am, on my own and everything is literally falling into place before my eyes-currently happy to be this booked up, at the same time scared of the growth since the established guys here have ALWAYS preached-dont grow to quickly, it will bite you in the azz.

So we're back to your situation. Making assumptions off posts read, this sounds like what happened to you/your company. Simply grew to quick to fast and did'nt have numbers plugged in right. Unless your lucky, you never start with a great salary-you scrape by until the business takes on a life of it's own and then it will provide for you..but until then you do what you have to do and keep putting things back into the business that will generate money. If your partners are already questioning sticking with it....mentally they're out. Even if you sell them on sticking with it, it will be half haerated on their part and will further degrade your business.

I see 2 simple solutions: trim the fat-meaning let the other 3 walk and you assume the company, if you can still get the investment money use that to get back to square one by paying off vendors. Find a few reliable crews and get back tomaking money-now that you know hard numbers of what jobs need to sell for to turn a profit-even if it's not a "set on kill" profit, it will caryy you to the next job and the savings will build since your overhead is much lower now-outgoing bills/salary's will be less than incoming if you sell them right which will turn into growth.

the other solution is simply getting out and go back to a steady job, the only downside is how do you split the vendor debt? with 4 partners do you split it 4 ways so each of you has to come up with $10K to pay these folks? Or do you pin all of it on 1-3 people? Either way it must be paid for, so I can see this getting ugly-esspecially since it's family.

Good luck, and let us know what you decided.
Josh


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## dougchips

Paintguy26 said:


> Some of you guys say things that are just hard to believe. Are all of you guys who say things like this fed with a silver spoon or something. Like that other guy who said he never went without work for 1 day in 18 years. No offense, but BULL.
> 
> Just makes me wonder how much help you had in the beginning then, to say such big statements.


Mine was only silver plated. I started with a Ford Ranger and some tools. I grew very slowly at first with out running up credit card bills. Then I started adding staff and making money while they did the work. I went 4 months last year without taking my truck out of the warehouse....then the wife began to nag. So I decided to grow again, during times of growth I work 80+ hours a week doing market research and other boring task. 

It is sort of like a flight of stairs, you start on the bottom step and for every step up wards you need to really work. Some people are happy on the bottom step and will stay there for ever (1 man one truck), some people make it to the top step (a national company). I am far from the top step so do not take this as bragging!

Now some people try to start off on the RD or fourth step with tons of overhead and staff without enough jobs or any idea on how to run a business---most will fail and go bankrupt, some will survive. If you go bankrupt or destroy your credit it is hard as hell to grow a business---can't take credit cards, can't offer financing, can't open store charge accounts.


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## Mike Finley

My only question is what would you plan to do with the 50K? Pay off debts or use it to expand? If it's for anything other than expanding, then close the doors and move on.


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## dougchips

IHI might be on to something with letting the other two go. If your are strong with the sales and generating leads, have you thought of just being a GC and subbing all of the work out? There are plenty of good subs that can not SALE a job and suck at GETTING LEADS. You get the leads, you sell the job, you make a fixed % of the total job. This system works well for me, I sub out about 95% +/- of all the jobs I get.


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## nadonailer

Teetorbilt said:


> I've been breaking even or cutting a profit from day one. I had a $3500 Jeep grand Wagoneer, my personal vehicle, and an accumulation of tools.
> 
> I'm guessing that you went too far, too fast.


At the risk of offending PaintGuy, I too have made at least some profit from day 1 in every business I've ever owned. Why? Not because I had any sort of gold spoon or even any more skill or knowledge. It was simply because I HAD TO! There was no room for any error, so I did my own work, found some good subs etc, etc.... Not that I haven't failed before, I have. And started all over - but ya gotta make $$$ from Day 1.
As far as your specific situation, I'd say dump ALL of your employees, get rid of the accompanying worker's comp and payroll taxes. Take on as much work as you personally and whichever of your family wants to work 24/7 can do, find a few good subs and take on any jobs that come your way that are profitable. Maybe expand your field of work? Don't get a loan, work out payments with all of your creditors, pay cash for everything for a while.
Good Luck!


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## donb1959

I started my company with 15K that I cashed out.I turned a profit 3 months later on 3/10/05.


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## maj

IHI said:


> Let me first say there is alot of good advise on here, once you figure out who to listen to and who just posts to post...quite a few folks here that in many opinions dont belong or have failed at their attempts and then come on here trying to make themselves sound high and mighty...you will learn these folks in due time should you stick around.
> Josh



:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: 

Nice Josh!!!!!:thumbsup: 


Trouble is.............. These folks don't realize it is them.


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## George Z

What is this us good guys vs them bad guys garbage any way?
This is a great community with different opinions.
There is black, 
There is white
Someone can decide what they think for themselves.
In fact they can choose grey or purple if they want.
No vigilante posts are necessary.


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## George Z

maj said:


> :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
> 
> Nice Josh!!!!!:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Trouble is.............. These folks don't realize it is them.


Could you have the courage (you too Josh please) and openly say who the good guys are (named as we)
and the bad guys (these folks) in this thread or don't even bother with these statements please.

Some of us still like this place.


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## IHI

George Z said:


> Could you have the courage (you too Josh please) and openly say who the good guys are (named as we)
> and the bad guys (these folks) in this thread or don't even bother with these statements please.
> 
> Some of us still like this place.


The guys that "know" talk openly about it in the shadows or PM's if you will and we'll just call it the "secret society". We'll keep everybody guessin. If you honestly dont know these screen names and have'nt figured it out, you have lots of read'n to do and then a light will come on and you'll understand, as smart as you are, I'm sure you already do, but I wont be the one to add fuel to an already burning fire here:w00t: 

I've stated my thoughts before, I could care about who says what/when. This is the internet, full of pro's who do no wrong behind a keyboard...the most successful guys known to man actually, and they are all over the forums of all types-this place is no different-just the nature of the net I guess-full of one uppers:laughing: And just like every other forum on the net, a person has to weed through the posts, pick what they think is true, or chose to believe and run with it, for better or worse. Yes we have some great members with incrediable advise, but then we have the posers as well. Just not my nature to out and out call somebody out, I like getting my jabs in this way since it's a nice private laugh.:whistling :laughing:


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## dougchips

"secret society" members please respond so we know who you are. Man so much stuff goes right over my head on this site.

Where is the "burning fire here"?


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## DecksEtc

I tried to join but I just couldn't get the secret handshake right - so they wouldn't let me in :cheesygri


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## dirt diggler

dirt diggler said:


> HAHA
> 
> I've got 3:1 on 4 pages
> 2:1 on 5


almost there


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## dougchips

"secret society" members please respond so we know who you are--dirt is one of them--he has odd's on how many pages this will have. No "public record" of any odds, just his post--the rest is behind the vail of the secret society!


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## Teetorbilt

dirt's not part of OUR 'secret society'.:laughing:


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## dirt diggler

secret societies?? cliques?? 

haha --- this is just like the frat parties at college. Only without the goats and Jim Beam


:laughing: :laughing:


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## dirt diggler

Teetorbilt said:


> dirt's not part of OUR 'secret society'.:laughing:


haha --- not a problem teetor ... i've never fit in

it's why i had to start my own business :thumbup:


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## dougchips

Teetorbilt said:


> dirt's not part of OUR 'secret society'.:laughing:


BS, you are the one that will close the tread when he reaches his optimal odd's for the bet. Currently at 7/1 for 6 pages. Does he go to the body art show with you?

Rookie came here looking for help, he must think that we are a bunch of nuts. 

At times this place seems like an intranet forum for a pysch ward.


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## dirt diggler

dougchips said:


> BS, you are the one that will close the tread when he reaches his optimal odd's for the bet. Currently at 7/1 for 6 pages. Does he go to the body art show with you?
> 
> Rookie came here looking for help, he must think that we are a bunch of nuts.
> 
> At times this place seems like an intranet forum for a pysch ward.


no, it's 1:4 for 6 pages

Don't worry Doug, I assure you --- I am not part of a secret society (haha, I never thought I would ever say that in this lifetime)

Heck, I'm still waiting on IHI to give me permission to start my next thread

arty:


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## dougchips

Ok Dirt, you are staying clear of my 2nd question in post #51, "the burning fire here"--by not answering, it leaves me to believe that you are well aware of it.


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## Guest

*truth be told*



Paintguy26 said:


> Finally, some reason!
> 
> afterall...most new companies fail within 5 years...Let alone make a large stockpile of profit-


well said paintguy:clap:


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## rdubyuh

Rookie said:


> We have been in business for almost 22 months now.. Started the business on around $24,000... Today that $24,000 is gone and we are in the red to suppliers by about $40,000.. Our average COGS is right at 60%.. Our fixed expenses are $4000/month... Our salaries are $8000 a month... Our finanance charges are currently at about $1000/month... Our break even point right now is right around $35,000 in gross sales per month...


I'm really torn, here. On the one hand you're one of the rare builders who actually thinks like a businessman, and on the other you're one of the rare builders who actually thinks like a businessman. It seems you're smart enough to figure it out, but reluctant to make the decision.

I think the bottom line is you've lost your support network, and you're on the cusp of throwing good money after bad. Plus, we're faced with this downturn that has us all a little concerned.

I like your attitude. If you had started even 5 years ago I might give different feedback, but I think you had best consider your options before investing more time and money. Bad economic times can kill even the best.

I sure wish you were working for me, though. I wouldn't have even been able to define, much less assess, cost of goods sold or break even point when I got started. Good luck.


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## boman47k

Someone said using subs would raise the cost of doing business. Wouldn't 50 per cent of something be more than 100 per cent of nothing? Just numbers there to get the logic across.


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## mahlere

boman47k said:


> Someone said using subs would raise the cost of doing business. Wouldn't 50 per cent of something be more than 100 per cent of nothing? Just numbers there to get the logic across.


not if it cost you 60% to get it, now you are not at 0, you are at -10%. At least 100% of nothing is 0.

The point was, his current costs were $35,000/month. If he used subcontractors to be able to produce $35,000/month. His costs would rise, so he still wouldn't meet his monthly nut. He'd still be in the hole.

My father always told me "I can go broke fishing and hunting and having fun, I don't need to work hard to get there"


Hey Dirt, what are the odds of running this to 7 pages


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## Gordo

mahlere said:


> not if it cost you 60% to get it, now you are not at 0, you are at -10%. At least 100% of nothing is 0.
> 
> 
> 
> My father always told me "I can go broke fishing and hunting and having fun, I don't need to work hard to get there"
> 
> I like this saying. Its so true.


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## P construction

Rookie I see this all the time to big to fast When i started 11 years ago i started very small Yes i got myself in trouble with dist but one way or another talk to them work out a payment plan like materials you by add 20% towards your balance on your account you will be supprized how fast you get that balance down Becouse once you get behind it is hard to get back on track and having an invester involved personnaly is not a good idea its just one other person money is owed to or a % taken out of your proffit .
Anyway good luck


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## IHI

mahlere said:


> My father always told me "I can go broke fishing and hunting and having fun, I don't need to work hard to get there"


I found this quite funny, I have another spin on this that I just used on Home Depot the other day when I pulled out of their millwork installs. Bluntly told the regional rep that was begging for us to come back, "I can stay home and go broke":laughing:


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## Guest

bravo paintguy


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## Rookie

Sorry for the delay in keeping you guys updated.. This last week has been a tough one... We met with accountant last Thursday, went over the numbers and decided we were going to close shop... For anyone who ever has to do this, I feel for you... It is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do in my life... To admit that we had failed and that our dream was over... That first night I took it very hard... I was honestly a mess.... 

When I get in a funk I like to drive... So I went out and did a timeline of every job I had had before I started the business.... I drove to all the office buildings and reminissed about my time there... It was funny what I found as I started doing this ... All the companies that I used to work for were out of business too... These were huge corporations that were back by millions of dollars.. Some of these companies were even publicly traded... Gone... They had folded up shop and went under... 

Seeing this made me feel a little better... We made a hell of a run at it... We all made a living for two years... We lived our dream for two years... We had a ton of good times... We have countless memories... My dad, my brother and me doing what we loved to do and doing it together!!! It was an experience I will never forget... Even though it didn't work out, we can all look back and say we did it... So many people out there never can even muster up the balls to go try it and we did... We lived our dream... Our dream isn't over it is just on hold for now... 

I think of all the books I have read about successful business men... Almost all of them had at least one failed company/venture... Almost all of them had to throw in the towel and go back to the drawing board and refigure it out... Draw a new map that lead to their dream... Our dream is far from over... 

I just wanted to thank all of you who gave your input and ideas... It is obvious a lot of your responses came straight from the heart... All of them are greatly appreciated...


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## tkle

Just scale down.If times are bad what are you going to do go work for another struggling outfit?Scale down,backup and regroup,then charge.


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## Mike Finley

Rookie said:


> Sorry for the delay in keeping you guys updated.. This last week has been a tough one... We met with accountant last Thursday, went over the numbers and decided we were going to close shop... For anyone who ever has to do this, I feel for you... It is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do in my life... To admit that we had failed and that our dream was over... That first night I took it very hard... I was honestly a mess....
> 
> When I get in a funk I like to drive... So I went out and did a timeline of every job I had had before I started the business.... I drove to all the office buildings and reminissed about my time there... It was funny what I found as I started doing this ... All the companies that I used to work for were out of business too... These were huge corporations that were back by millions of dollars.. Some of these companies were even publicly traded... Gone... They had folded up shop and went under...
> 
> Seeing this made me feel a little better... We made a hell of a run at it... We all made a living for two years... We lived our dream for two years... We had a ton of good times... We have countless memories... My dad, my brother and me doing what we loved to do and doing it together!!! It was an experience I will never forget... Even though it didn't work out, we can all look back and say we did it... So many people out there never can even muster up the balls to go try it and we did... We lived our dream... Our dream isn't over it is just on hold for now...
> 
> I think of all the books I have read about successful business men... Almost all of them had at least one failed company/venture... Almost all of them had to throw in the towel and go back to the drawing board and refigure it out... Draw a new map that lead to their dream... Our dream is far from over...
> 
> I just wanted to thank all of you who gave your input and ideas... It is obvious a lot of your responses came straight from the heart... All of them are greatly appreciated...


Hey rookie - food for thought -


Marilyn Monroe, who in 1947, after one year under contract, was dropped by 20th Century-Fox because Darryl Zanuck thought she was unattractive 
John Grisham, first novel, A Time to Kill, was rejected by sixteen agents and a dozen publishing houses 
Walt Disney, whose first cartoon production company went bankrupt 
Barbra Streisand, who made her stage debut at age 19 in a show that opened and closed in a single night 
Edgar Allan Poe, who was expelled from West Point
Dr Suess first book was rejected by 27 publishing houses.
Lewis Tappan the founder of Duns & Bradstreet and the inventor of the credit system used a billion times a day went bankrupt as a silk merchant
Abraham Lincoln ran 2 retail stores into banckruptcy before becoming president.
Harry Truman's hat store went bankrupt before he became president, he wrote checks to creditors for 20 years, including the time he was in the white house.
Bill Gates started his first business, Traf-O-Data, to analyze automobile traffic flow. It flopped


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## Richard

Rookie

The show must go on. You are in charge of your destiny~as cliche as that sounds. Regroup, study, come up with a good plan, revamp, reorganize, mobilize....etc.

The biggest lesson here is to learn from this misfortune and conquer it next time. If you will work for someone else right now, so be it. But, you were obviously happy and passionate about your business-so it's only a matter of time and you'll be back better than ever:thumbsup: Dont rush into things, take it slow and build something greater and better next time!

Good luck man-we're here for ya


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## IHI

Rookie, you've got the perfect attitude and you will make it. keep your chin up and plug on through the tough times.

This is actually my second venture with a business, first one was a 3 year deal and I could'nt make it work. This time I was/am too hard headed to not make it work..nothing else to fall back on LOL!!

Here's an example to make anybody feel better. The first time you do ANYTHING weather it be building a race car, building a project for the first time, installing laminate flloring for the first time, etc...it wont be perfect. You will learn ALOT during the first project that you will take to the next project, so on and so forth until you figure it out. Alot of businesses are built with the same principals...you guys gave it a shot-more than most of the world can say, so keep your chin up, use this experience and make changes if you try it again. Learn from your mistakes is all we can do through life.


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## dirt diggler

IHI said:


> This is actually my second venture with a business, first one was a 3 year deal and I could'nt make it work. This time I was/am too hard headed to not make it work..nothing else to fall back on LOL!!



yep, next year (my 3rd) is my self-proclaimed "should I stay or should I go" (da-da da da da DAH)

however, if i feel i can't make it work ... gimme another year and another idea


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## IHI

dirt diggler said:


> yep, next year (my 3rd) is my self-proclaimed "should I stay or should I go" (da-da da da da DAH)
> 
> however, if i feel i can't make it work ... gimme another year and another idea


LOL, that's really the attitude ya gotta have I think...kind of a sink or swim deal. The one thing I found interesting, and I guess listening to others makes sense, but the "you only get out what you put in" has definately showed it's worth this year. The past 5 years (1st year was the partnership gone bad) and the next 4 years I was really working to race...racing was 1st priority and work was second...kinda bad huh? 

This year I took off from racing, really focused on work and man, what an unbelievable year. Started off slow from winter, but once the flood doors opened, I've never had this much work!! Actually booked through middle of January-so long as weather stays decent cuz then it will be end of jan if it gets too cold, but calls are still coming in-though slowly-still coming in. The only thing I can think of is all the weekend work we've been doing, loooong days, literally no fun this year-absolutely and honestly nothing but work (yes I'm burnt) is kind of reaping benefits as far as financial freedom to reinvest in the business with newer trucks and more equpiment for better effeciency. Just waiting to catch my breath, 6-7 day work weeks are getting tiresome, but what are ya gonna do LOL!!


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## dirt diggler

yeah, ive actually even forced myself to pursue other hobbies/interests just to keep from getting burned out

it's been 7 days/week for me to ... up until the past two weeks, I haven't even THOUGHT about doing anything other than work

honestly, i don't mind though --- nothin better than enjoying what you do

still gotta make the money though


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## mahlere

Dirt and IHI, there is a great thread by Sonny Lykos about this exact topic. I don't want to post the info publically (I think it's against CT rules), but feel free to PM me and I'll point you in the right direction. Might be something worth reading based on the discussion you 2 are starting.


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