# Ball buster



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

It doesn't pay sometimes to be nice.

Had a customer call me about a problem with their shower. We did the job over 2 years ago and our warranty is over, but I told them I'd see what I can do. Set up a time to go over and check it out. Problem was the valve was only giving them hot water, no cold. Called Moen and they said it was the balance spool, but it might be cleanable without being replaced. I figured it was worth a shot to see if I could pull it and clean it and get them back up and running quickly.

Once there the husband informs me he has already done some stuff to the valve himself.  Great to hear. So now we have the X-factor on top of the problem. Like the game of telephone the actual problem gets clouded up the more hands touch it and create red herrings of their own. Did the guy cause more problems, did he put something back together wrong, has he created a 2nd problem that will cloud up the ability to correct the orginal problem? 

No good deed goes unpunished.

Anyways, clean the balance spool, put it back together, no good. Tell the customer, I'll order a new one and see them in a few days. I'm not even going to spend any more time messing with the thing until we eliminate the balance spool is good.

Few days later go over replace the balance spool, we have hot and cold. However, the hot just doesn't seem right to me. Turn it off, go turn on the sink faucet let it run. Man things are weird, getting really weird temperature fluctuations. Go back to the shower turn it on, seems like plugs of cold water every once in awhile... hotter now. Seems good, so I button up the valve. Call the customer up to verify all is good. She says, the hot water doesn't seems as hot. Take the valve apart again, start from scratch now on the customer replaced parts. Put it all together, try it out. Nice and hot... then not so hot... WTF???

Anyways to make a long story short the customer finally after about 30 minutes of all this devulges they have installed an instant hot water system a year ago.

SONOFA! :furious:

Now it all makes sense, the stupid thing can't keep up with the multi-heads, and the plugs of weird water temps coming out of it all make sense now.

To make matters worse I soaked myself by accidently turning on the overhead rain maker and now I'm on my way to see another customer for an estimate looking like I'm a sweating pig. :laughing:

Of course I know what's coming now, it will only be a matter of a couple of days before the customer is calling me up and is positive the water temperature is now different then ever before and wanting me to come back out there. :no:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Mike it sounds like the kind of customer that calls you back 6 months later and says the basement toilet never flushed the same since you worked on the shower valve. :laughing:


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## Darwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Thats a good story, there :laughing:

Just replace the faucet with a new one. Once the homeowner touches the inner workings, Holy Shishcabob.


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

Well now you shouldn't have to feel guilty for charging them! :w00t:


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

were they on a well?

very common problem


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## Smatt (Feb 22, 2011)

I am glad to hear that someone else shares in the mysterious plumbing fairy theory.

It never fails that a customer has/had problems and tries/tried to fix it themselves. Inner10 hit the nail on the head the homeowner is looking for a fall guy. Invariably after one of these minor catastrophe's something else will go south.



Another point, I also know a builder who warranties his houses for 5 years . This is just absurd to me. I know you want to have a good word of mouth, but come on you have ta severe ties at some point. Most of it is homeowner maintenance,caulking,painting etc.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

rex said:


> were they on a well?
> 
> very common problem


Instant hot water unit that couldn't keep up. We built them a beautiful steam shower a couple of years ago with muti-heads. I recall them asking me about upgrading their hot water and as is my usual advice I advised them to add a 2nd hot water heater in series to their existing. Apparently they instead put in a crappy instant hot water unit. They basically took our Ferrari of a shower and put a Ford Escort motor under the hood now.


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## Smatt (Feb 22, 2011)

Mike Finley said:


> Instant hot water unit that couldn't keep up. We built them a beautiful steam shower a couple of years ago with muti-heads. I recall them asking me about upgrading their hot water and as is my usual advice I advised them to add a 2nd hot water heater in series to their existing. Apparently they instead put in a crappy instant hot water unit. They basically took our Ferrari of a shower and put a Ford Escort motor under the hood now.


I wish people would stop calling the "instant hot" they are on demand even with a recirculator. No disrespect to you Mike. Home owners call it the same thing and is misleading and a major misconception.

An instant hot is what you find on your kitchen sink for tea,coffee oatmeal etc.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

i would of checked the water heater before fooling with any thing else...and once i noticed a tankless welp end of story...


serves them right.....youll get the hang of it one day boy

the GPM of a large custom shower will put a single tankless install to shame


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## Smatt (Feb 22, 2011)

rex said:


> i would of checked the water heater before fooling with any thing else...and once i noticed a tankless welp end of story...
> 
> 
> serves them right.....youll get the hang of it one day boy
> ...


Rex I have a Rinnai and if I turn all 9 fixtures on hot I will still have hot water at the temp I set it at though it will be a trickle to say the least.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

Smatt said:


> Rex I have a Rinnai and if I turn all 9 fixtures on hot I will still have hot water at the temp I set it at though it will be a trickle to say the least.


 
thats what im getting at the more flow the less pressure...if its tank type you wont have that issue as long as the volume and pressure is up to par....a tankless will be put to shame in that instance...unless you add multiple units

i for one would rather use a tank type heater

yea the temp will stay the same but if you open a bunch of hot taps at once i can piss harder

and when it come to a pressure balance shower valve the problem will be very obvious


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

A friend of mine got a tankless water heater installed and she called the plumber and complained that the water wasn't hot with the hot tap open completely.

The plumber explained how the water heater can't heat the water fast enough to keep up with the flow of the tap....his solution was to not open the tap all the way. :laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

rex said:


> i would of checked the water heater before fooling with any thing else...and once i noticed a tankless welp end of story...
> 
> 
> serves them right.....youll get the hang of it one day boy
> ...


Dude. You're killing me. Are you just reading every third sentence or am I that bad at telling a story?

Problem that I was there for had nothing to do with the tankless. I was there because of a bad balancing cartridge in a valve we installed over 2 years ago that went bad. Once that was corrected there was hot and cold water again, however, the new issue was the hot wasn't as hot as it should be or was intermittent. The customer had f**k'd with the valve on his own, so my first assumption was of course that something he had done probably had something to do with this new issue. Turned out to be the tankless they installed long after our remodel is the problem. I had no idea there was a tankless, I'm thinking the home owner had f'd up the other cartridge in the valve. Who knows what a homeowner woudl or did do to something they mess with? I was also creating my own problem by testing temperature at the sink faucet and leaving it running at the same time, not knowing it was a tankless which was making it even worse. I'd put my hand under the shower and think, damn that's not that hot, then turn it off and go back to the still running sink which now was pulling less vol and would of course get hotter and now think, what the hell?

I'm not a plumbing savant as obviously I was outsmarted by a tankless bought at direct buy.:w00t:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Wait until you get a call from a previous client, drive an hour to the site, and then find out they moved to a location an hour in the *other* direction. And forgot to tell you. :whistling


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Wait until you get a call from a previous client, drive an hour to the site, and then find out they moved to a location an hour in the *other* direction. And forgot to tell you. :whistling


Don't laugh I did that....but it was 20 minutes not an hour. :laughing:

So Mike there was two compound problems the balancing cartridge and the hot water heater...just making sure everyone understands. :shifty:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Inner10 said:


> Don't laugh I did that....but it was 20 minutes not an hour. :laughing:
> 
> So Mike there was two compound problems the balancing cartridge and the hot water heater...just making sure everyone understands. :shifty:


You got it brother, and a 3rd problem because the homeowner had screwed around with the valve, supposedly changing out one of the three cartridges in it. Who knows if he had it in correctly or even had the right one for this model. When the hot wasn't as hot as it shoudl be, I figured he had screwed with the delimiter or something at least. Add to that the quirky way the temperatures were fluctuating and it was like I was in a 3 stooges movie and I was all 3 stooges!

Plus I soaked myself! Dammit.:laughing: I left there driving down the road with no coat and all the windows open to try to air dry myself before I got to the next appointment and it was 50 degrees out!


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

That sucks mike, I rarely have a customer put in moen anything. It's junk. Grohe just lasts a long time and I tell people they won't be messing around with it a few years later like they will with a moen or delta or other crap on the market.

where's the video of you getting soaked, I've done that before but not that bad and wasn't going to another client after that.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

The instant they said they screwed with it is the same time you should have started to write out the invoice. Especially when they changed out the heating system and then try to pull a warranty issue on something that is out of warranty.

Send them the bill Mike.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

The first thing I thought of when I started reading was maybe the water heater was on the fritz.

It is not always your shower to blame.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Leo G said:


> The instant they said they screwed with it is the same time you should have started to write out the invoice. Especially when they changed out the heating system and then try to pull a warranty issue on something that is out of warranty.
> 
> Send them the bill Mike.


I hear you there. But we don't play that way. I spend a lot of time 'selling' customers on why we are worth paying more for, this is when it's time to prove it and walk the walk.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

But at what point do you stop playing their game. You went over there and checked out the shower innards. You then replaced them. Now you find out the whole deal was caused by the client screwing around with the shower and changing over the heating system. 

Mike, I like that you are sticking to your guns. But really, you shouldn't be. This person knows that he caused the problem and is looking for a free handout.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Again, I apologize for not being able to tell the story right. The whole thing was caused by a defective balancing valve that failed over a year and half out of warranty. The rest of the stuff just made the verfication that the problem was corrected by replacing the defective part harder to do. Had they never switched over to a tankless, had he never tried to fix the thing himself, it would have been a simpler matter of just replacing the part and testing and seeing everything was good. The tankless caused the verification to be more difficult because I didn't know about it and assumed the weird water temps were probably a result of the homeowner messing with the cartridges. In the end he didn't do anything to cause any problems.


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

We did a bathroom last year. Demod everything and capped the sink lines as the valves were shot. Pressure checked the caps everythings good no leaks. 

Later on that night, I get a call that there is water all over the place in the kitchen and the basement is flooded. Bathroom is above the kitchen. Im thinking, damn it. I go over and i check my caps. Nothing

Check the commode line..nothing. I go into the kitchen, we havent even gone near the kitchen during the project. The undersink filter blew out. HO is blaming me? Showed him the bottom of the filter. He calms down. I replace the filter and handed him invoice.

A few days later, they had some guy running the electrical in the bathroom. The drywall in the next room behind the shower was open for whatever reason? Bath fitters were doing the shower. We were just doing flooring and finish work. Get another call early in the morning. Water in the basement again.

Go over sinks and commode are ok. I turn shower on and check basement sure enough like a water fall. How it didnt damage the drywall on first floor who knows. I go to were they had the drywall cut out. The whole is like 3 x 3. They must of shoved a whole roll of r 13 in there. Then i see fresh romex going thru there for the new fixtures. 

I pulled all the r 13 out, which is soaked. It turns out after they ran the romex. Ho decided to stuff insulation all in there. It knocked off an old rotten out chrome trap. I called HO and explained. He wanted it fixed then. I do not know why, since bathfitters still have to come? So, I had to open their hole up further get this old junk out and replace. Wife walks in and says funny how all this stuff started after you guys have been working.

I didnt say a word, went down to the truck got the invoice book out again. What a PITA. People can be. I think those people spent an extra 4-500 bucks playing around and making things worse.


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

Mike, you are real good. I would have known what kind of water heater they have because I would have shut off the cold water to the heater before messing with the valve. You do it with the water on. Amazing.
Steve


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Guys read the damn first post the balancing do-hickey was shot, the water heater problem was secondary.



> That sucks mike, I rarely have a customer put in moen anything. It's junk. Grohe just lasts a long time and I tell people they won't be messing around with it a few years later like they will with a moen or delta or other crap on the market.


Agpar, have you had bad luck with Moen? I ask because my plumber friend told me to put a Moentroll in my shower....they no good?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

stp57 said:


> Mike, you are real good. I would have known what kind of water heater they have because I would have shut off the cold water to the heater before messing with the valve. You do it with the water on. Amazing.
> Steve


Wow, thanks for the compliment, F-stick. 

Take a look at the attachement, it's just for you genius, when you figure out what stops are for you come on back and let us know. Um-kay?


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

You beat me to it.

The spool is called a 1423 and the valve comes with integral stops.:thumbsup:

Anyhow, I know what your going through Mike. :laughing:

........like sands in the hour glass.......so are the days of contracting.

Mike


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> Guys read the damn first post the balancing do-hickey was shot, the water heater problem was secondary.
> 
> 
> 
> Agpar, have you had bad luck with Moen? I ask because my plumber friend told me to put a Moentroll in my shower....they no good?


A Moentrol is a great valve:thumbsup:


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## dprimc (Mar 13, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> I hear you there. But we don't play that way. I spend a lot of time 'selling' customers on why we are worth paying more for, this is when it's time to prove it and walk the walk.



You get a lot further with them telling all of their friends how it was their own fault and Mike fixed it anyway at no charge.

The other way can easily turn into them telling everyone Mike caused the problem, knowing full well it was their own fault, and then he had the nerve to charged them to fix it.

If you showed up thinking it was a warranty type issue anyway, you are already there not expecting to get paid, might as well get some great PR and marketing out of it.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

dprimc said:


> You get a lot further with them telling all of their friends how it was their own fault and Mike fixed it anyway at no charge.
> 
> The other way can easily turn into them telling everyone Mike caused the problem, knowing full well it was their own fault, and then he had the nerve to charged them to fix it.
> 
> If you showed up thinking it was a warranty type issue anyway, you are already there not expecting to get paid, might as well get some great PR and marketing out of it.


Yeah, that way they can tell their 3 friends who will never have bathrooms remodeled about it.:laughing:

Doing freebies has limits, it's not ALL good for word of mouth. When I look back at the times I took a hit "because I'm a nice guy" I can tell you that it's not all peaches and cream. 

Just saying.

Mike


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Wow, thanks for the compliment, F-stick.


:laughing:

Mike you're hilarious.



> Doing freebies has limits, it's not ALL good for word of mouth. When I look back at the times I took a hit "because I'm a nice guy" I can tell you that it's not all peaches and cream.


I've gotten more referals from paying work then freebies. Well said Mike.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> I've gotten more referals from paying work then freebies. Well said Mike.


Well, after being around the block a few times I've learned exactly this.

Cheap people hang out with cheap people.

Mike


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

Mikey,
I have never insulted you, but if you feel that you must label me, go right ahead. I don't claim to be a plumber, or to know about this valve or any other. I merely commented that I run for a shutoff valve every time I work on plumbing, because unfortunately, I know what it's like to see a valve stem shoot out of the wall because I forgot to shut the water off first.
I don't take your "F-stick" comment personally, because personally I don't know you. However, you could kick your dog next time you want to lash out at someone before you got the facts straight. Then again, maybe you just need to expand you vocabulary some more.
Steve



Mike Finley said:


> Wow, thanks for the compliment, F-stick.
> 
> Take a look at the attachement, it's just for you genius, when you figure out what stops are for you come on back and let us know. Um-kay?


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Ooooh boy, here we go again.:laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Hey, Steve, my fault. I mistook your sarcastic remarks and intentional dig as a sarcastic intentional dig. My bad.


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

Quite alright Mike. I shouldn't have let on about your dog kicking habits either.:laughing:
I don't have nearly the posts that you have (1,500 v.s 13,000), but intentional inflammatory comments just don't appear in my posts. Not my style. Sorry for the confusion.
Steve



Mike Finley said:


> Hey, Steve, my fault. I mistook your sarcastic remarks and intentional dig as a sarcastic intentional dig. My bad.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> I don't have nearly the posts that you have (1,500 v.s 13,000), but intentional inflammatory comments just don't appear in my posts. Not my style. Sorry for the confusion.


I guess you never read one of Findlay's post's before. :laughing:


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