# Heating new Family Room w/ gas fireplace?



## hvacr_pro (Jan 21, 2010)

o man i agree, i just cant see it being totally being burnt. like what happens in 5 years when u do some construction all that fine dust gets in there...or never gets cleaned i see fireplaces every day packup full of lint and everything else..i just hate to have my gas tag on it..thats all but i cant see the heatloss helping it..sure most models being under 50,000btu's but still you need to burn the natural gas and with no way of replenishing your air supply u'd dry out the house and you would still have other products entering the house.,maybe not C.O but co2 tell ya i dont think its a totally safe way...sure i no some impossible jobs trying to get a gas line down. but if you got the right tools and and a 8 foot ladder can still drill holes venting sure no one really likes looking at it.anyone ever see this go bad? what about set up gas pressures being over clocked problems or concerns?


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

> sure most models being under 50,000btu's but still you need to burn the natural gas and with no way of replenishing your air supply u'd dry out the house


A ventless heater will NOT dry out a house.


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## hvaclover (Oct 5, 2008)

And they smell bad as they work.


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## MechAcc (Feb 27, 2005)

*Vent Free Appliances*


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## kubie (Oct 19, 2008)

in WI you cant install a ventless fireplace(code) in any home newer than 1980 or around there, or any addition added to an older home......the homes are to air tight


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## Fireplace Guy (Jun 7, 2010)

Most of the "ventfree is bad" info is from Fireplace manufacturers or sellers that do not make or handle Ventfree products. Funny how I have seen this market and the market for Vented units evolve. I prefer NG over LP and comparing the VF products sold @ HD or Lowes to a quality product manufactured/distributed by companies who care is like night and day. Most people DO NOT realize that their gas range is an unvented appliance with more BTU capability than the average Gas fireplace. I have tested many fireplaces with sophisticated CO equipment and have units that burn with no apparent degredation of air quality. 
I have seen "dirty" burning units, most of which were owner error, misuse improperly sized or installed or lack of maintenance on the fireplace that causes odors or CO problems. 
These are not meant to replace a furnace system. 

In the 1990's a certain large FP manufacturer led the charge against VF appliances since they did not posess the technology to manufacture them at the time . They now have added VF to their product line and have not looked back.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Fireplace Guy said:


> Most of the "ventfree is bad" info is from Fireplace manufacturers or sellers that do not make or handle Ventfree products. Funny how I have seen this market and the market for Vented units evolve. I prefer NG over LP and comparing the VF products sold @ HD or Lowes to a quality product manufactured/distributed by companies who care is like night and day. *Most people DO NOT realize that their gas range is an unvented appliance with more BTU capability than the average Gas fireplace. *I have tested many fireplaces with sophisticated CO equipment and have units that burn with no apparent degredation of air quality.
> I have seen "dirty" burning units, most of which were owner error, misuse improperly sized or installed or lack of maintenance on the fireplace that causes odors or CO problems.
> These are not meant to replace a furnace system.
> 
> In the 1990's a certain large FP manufacturer led the charge against VF appliances since they did not posess the technology to manufacture them at the time . They now have added VF to their product line and have not looked back.


 I use that phrase with everyone I talk to that will not consider a VF unit.

Funny how people will cook a turkey in the gas oven for eight hours, with a recirculating microwave range hood and not have a clue that the hood is not vented to the outside.

Personally, if someone is going to run the fireplace for more than a few hours on a daily basis, I tell them to lean toward a vented unit.

If it's just being used sporadically, more for mood than heating, vent free is the way to go.


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## hvaclover (Oct 5, 2008)

Fireplace Guy said:


> Most of the "vent free is bad" info is from Fireplace manufacturers or sellers that do not make or handle Vent free products. Funny how I have seen this market and the market for Vented units evolve. I prefer NAG over LP and comparing the VF products sold @ HUD or Lowe's to a quality product manufactured/distributed by companies who care is like night and day. Most people DO NOT realize that their gas range is an invented appliance with more BTU capability than the average Gas fireplace. I have tested many fireplaces with sophisticated CO equipment and have units that burn with no apparent degradation of air quality.
> I have seen "dirty" burning units, most of which were owner error, misuse improperly sized or installed or lack of maintenance on the fireplace that causes odors or CO problems.
> These are not meant to replace a furnace system.
> 
> In the W's a certain large FPO manufacturer led the charge against VF appliances since they did not posses the technology to manufacture them at the time . They now have added VF to their product line and have not looked back.


What you consider as "Bad info" (to the extent that does not wander into the ridiculous) VF heating is only god for spot heating. And it is true that that VF is dangerous to use in over tight homes. The partiticular comparison of a cooking range to a heating appliance is not accurate in one important sense: you don't use your stove to heat your home.
I can walk into a home and tell you if a VF heater is firing from the smell.

The point about the the VH systems "running well as long as it is set up right and maintained". PLEASE!!!! SPARE ME!

VH are one of the the biggest segments of the DIY market.

For safty sake a pro should check a VH anually to make sure it is with in factory specs....you think a DIYer is going to call a tech once a year to clean and adjust a VH the DIY installed?

Fumes are fumes. The claims that VH gas heaters have very low CO output is not gurantee of safety. After all; you are still burning gas and the products of combustion will still displace oxygen. If you don't believe the part that VH will Burn dirty.....just close the door of the room being heated and run it long time....then look at the color of the flames.


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## Fireplace Guy (Jun 7, 2010)

Again Are you familair with the ODS safety pilots on these units?? And I don't think my comparison with a range is that far off. I stated that these are devices that need an expert to determine and maintain to work safely and effectively... Hence my business... wholesaling and retailing to those with experience. I am against the DIY'er who ultimetely more often than not misuses the product, but my experience is they are safe supplemental heat sources as I mentioned. 
and Isaid the "VF is bad ..." info crowd, not that there is "bad info"
I DONOT reccommend VFunits in homes with asthmatics.
I am very sensitive to odors and service many that have odors much of the big box store inventory..
there are also many that have no odor...
you are entitled to your opinion. I work in this industry for greater than 2 decades


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## hvaclover (Oct 5, 2008)

Fireplace Guy said:


> Again Are you familair with the ODS safety pilots on these units?? And I don't think my comparison with a range is that far off. I stated that these are devices that need an expert to determine and maintain to work safely and effectively... Hence my business... wholesaling and retailing to those with experience. I am against the DIY'er who ultimetely more often than not misuses the product, but my experience is they are safe supplemental heat sources as I mentioned.
> and Isaid the "VF is bad ..." info crowd, not that there is "bad info"
> I DONOT reccommend VFunits in homes with asthmatics.
> I am very sensitive to odors and service many that have odors much of the big box store inventory..
> ...


 
OK then---you 'da man:notworthy. Safety is what I was harping on. 

What type combustion analysis do you use when you checkout a system.

And even more interesting to me is what you tell the DIY who over over sized his unit by double? (Bigger ias better eeeyyyyyyy!!).


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

An oven's burner isn't on for 8 hours when a person bakes a turkey.
Nor does the family gather around it while its baking the Turkey.

Unless your in the house the whole time someone is using a VF. Doesn't matter how well you set it up. It can have a change in combustion that makes it dangerous. The ODS is a last ditch safety.


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## Fireplace Guy (Jun 7, 2010)

My point here is not to "win you over" your mind is set. 
Just like any manufactured product misuse can lead to injury. 
"Sealed" DV units can leak up to 4% when new and increase with negative pressure and age/ condition of unit. These units have more flame impingement and dirtier burn patterns than VF.
Funny thing is most "tight" new homes around here have DV units, it is the older "leaky" homes with greater air exchange that people retofit their masonry fireplaces with VF units ie. gaslogs which are Dual listed as VF or vented and allow for a damper clamp to be placed in the fireplace.

Next holiday turn on all 4 or 6 burners on your range for side dishes , gather your relatives and place that 22lb bird in the oven all day, Let me know who gets ill from the fumes.

I educate my customers and the choice is theirs.


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

I can turn on every burner, and the oven and seal the kitchen. Someone might get ill from CO2 poisoning. But the won't be poisoned by CO from my electric range.

Since only a handfull of people have a VF checked every year. They are not safe in the average home.

Don't care how much of an "expert" someone is at setting them up. They have no way to determine if its still working right 3 years later, if they haven't been there to check it since it was installed.


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## Fireplace Guy (Jun 7, 2010)

I guess the same could be said for the car dealer who sells a "deadly machine" for he is not aware of how fast or dangerously you drive, if you maintain it correctly or if you have read the manual before use...

That is why we contact our clients to perform maintenance calls .... good way to increase revenue at the same time. 

The perceived inherent dangers of Gas and Electricity usually lead homeowner's to be more cautious about both, which leads to more maintenance/ service cals to the pros.
AGA, CSA, BOCA, ANSI, EPA, CPSC have no issues with properly sized, installed and maintained VF appliances, therefore they will continue to be an acceptable, efficient supplemental heat source for millions of homeowners.


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

> I guess the same could be said for the car dealer who sells a "deadly machine" for he is not aware of how fast or dangerously you drive, if you maintain it correctly or if you have read the manual before use...


Many states require annual safety inspections.



> AGA, CSA, BOCA, ANSI, EPA, CPSC have no issues with properly sized, installed and maintained VF appliances, therefore they will continue to be an acceptable, efficient supplemental heat source for millions of homeowners.


NFGC restricts the size of VF heaters in rooms. I believe AGA, and CSA agree with those restrictions.Because they are not safe.
other wise, if those restrictions weren't in place. Lots of people, just wouldn't be waking up.

They are also only approved as supplemental heat. Code prohibits them from being used as the sole source of heat.
This was done because they are not as safe as you make them sound.

I don't see you listing GAMA?

I highly doubt, you have a service/annual maintenance contract with every customer you sold and installed a VF for.


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## hvaclover (Oct 5, 2008)

Been, I think Fireplace guy is just saying that VF has it's place but the industry can't be held liable if a DIY misapplied it.

Like you said there are code restriction on size and location for VF but how many places enforce it?

Our point that we all agree on is "Yeah, they can be dangerous and mostly cause of DIY miss-application".

I would not out right ban them but I sure the hell would redesign the safety circuit like the WH industry did to standard WH. All the old safety concerns on the old t'couple gravity vent water heater are all most completely eliminated now.

VFs need a similar rework of their safety system.

I have put in one and was not impressed with the control system. And as soon as we fired the VF we had the smell of a burnt gas which me and my son picked up immediately. I warned the guy to get a multi detector that picked up more than just CO.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

I prefer NG over LP and comparing the VF products sold @ HD or Lowes to a quality product manufactured/distributed by companies who care is like night and day. Most people DO NOT realize that their gas range is an unvented appliance with more BTU capability than the average Gas fireplace. I have tested many fireplaces with sophisticated CO equipment and have units that burn with no apparent degredation of air quality. 
I have seen "dirty" burning units, most of which were owner error, misuse improperly sized or installed or lack of maintenance on the fireplace that causes odors or CO problems. 
These are not meant to replace a furnace system. 


I have to add my input here. I am one of these people "like most" that years ago went to Lowes & bought one of their ventless stove. I do realize that your gas range is unvented-BUT the longest we use them is for an 8hr turkey once or twice a year. 

Some people want to use their Ventless to heat continously. As you said they are not Meant to replace a furnace but people will try anyhow.

People buy thes units to try to heat there houses or additions with them & read that they are safe. I don't buy that as they clearly state to have a window cracked open ! 

Now how many poor homeowners are going to do that-leave a window open , when it is freezing outside, trying to heat there homes.
My expereiance was : I was at work and ordered some Propane. I had left my stove running & when I got home that night, My stove was running real dirty & my walls had blackened around it. Owner error ?? This would not happen if it was vented. 

I would not recommend any Ventless stove to anyone, unless they just want it for looks & don't hardly ever run it !!


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