# Any tricks for an old overdigger



## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

Well did my 1st lateral with the backhoe today. It was around 5 ft. deep
Replacing 4"clay with 4' abs . This is new to me and am getting better at the sticks. Problem is I dig too deep! Have to fill and compact under where new pipe will bed. pulled a taught dry line from bottom of house cast drain to clay at sewer filled in and had My guys compact. will install a Kelly fitting [2 way cleanout] at house and a long sweep at street .
I'M charging $3100 for materials ,permit fee, and labor. This is n.ca.
Think I gave My friend a fair deal. What's Your take please.
Thank's Drift


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Well, digging takes experience. Sometimes I might get a bit too deep or I'll dig a rock out and and have a hole under the pipe. I just fill in the voids will gravel. 

As far as pricing, here in PA, I know that I am alot cheaper than CA. On avg, we charge about $16 per ft for sewer laterals. This includes pipe and stone, no permits. Deeper trenches are more of course.


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

Thank's Rino,I like the gravel idea. Here on residental work, I believe $5500 would be the norm. I know trenchless bid was $3500. Not sure if that meant pipe bursting or a synthetic liner
They pull through. Guessing that fix wouldn't be as good as what I'M doing. would be


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

I have a tendencey to over dig too. That just means my patios have more base.

Matt


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## Kgmz (Feb 9, 2007)

Put a mark on your dipperstick to measure your depth at whatever bucket position you want. At 2 to 3 foot depths I can tell how deep I am by the bucket position (top of bucket by how much it is curled), or just a visual clue on the bucket like welds, reinforcing plates, etc.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

pipe laser/pea rock


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## Cat385 (Nov 17, 2006)

It will come over time. The biggest thing is making sure you have safe trenches for your guys. You can always fill an overdig.


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

Drift,

When you dig try and do things the same way. Get down to depth slowly. Get the correct height on the bottom of the trench set first. Then observe how the stick and bucket appear from the seat. Clean the bottom of the trench with the bucket and stick in the same position each time. 

You want to not be cleaning the bottom to height with the stick way out or right up under you. The guys who are really good are very repetitive in their style.

With our modern machines you see operators digging trenches starting with the stick and bucket as far out as they can reach. And they dig until they are right up under the machine. Keeping a grade is impossible this way.

There is a working range in the geometry of a machines boom, stick and bucket that gives the best productivity. People who take the time to learn it are the most productive. Then there is a working range in human brain as it perceives through the eye the geometry of a machines boom, stick and bucket that controls accuracy. People who take the time to learn it are the most accurate.


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

denick said:


> Drift,
> 
> When you dig try and do things the same way. Get down to depth slowly. Get the correct height on the bottom of the trench set first. Then observe how the stick and bucket appear from the seat. Clean the bottom of the trench with the bucket and stick in the same position each time.
> 
> ...



I agree with Nick. There is prolly only a 10ft working range for fine grading with a hoe. I start with my stick all the way out and start bringing it in. Once the stick is perpendicular with the ground, that is basically your limit. After you bring it in more, you need to move the boom down and uncurl the bucket. 

I dig most of my laterals by eye and I use a rotational level laser for those ones that I don't have much room for error. Most of the laterals I do are for basement service and are anywhere from 8-12 ft deep.


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## fhdesign (Jan 17, 2007)

Do you have your guys helping you while you're digging?
Most good operators also have good labors keeping them on grade.


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

*Wow , great info ,and splained well!!!!!!!*

Denick You splained that ,so even I can understand it! I have been breaking all the rules. Will slow down and work at doing it right .
Rino will keep it to 10feet ,was having too much fun with extendahoe!
fh design will use one of My laborers to help ,We have two nice lazers.

:thumbup:


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Driftwood said:


> Denick You splained that ,so even I can understand it! I have been breaking all the rules. Will slow down and work at doing it right .
> Rino will keep it to 10feet ,was having too much fun with extendahoe!
> fh design will use one of My laborers to help ,We have two nice lazers.
> 
> :thumbup:


IMO, extendahoes are essential for a backhoe. I don't know how anyone can own one without it. Just don't dig right in front of you with the extendahoe out.


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

I own a backhe without an extend-a-hoe!

What I wrote about digging becomes second nature as you have experience. Many operators who are good at carrying a grade don't consciously do these things but it is what happens. 

Being a good operator takes BRAINS!


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

fhdesign said:


> Do you have your guys helping you while you're digging?
> Most good operators also have good labors keeping them on grade.


I like having a second set of eyes, but they can't keep me on grade. It is my job to keep them from doing too much hand digging or back filling. 

Here is another question: Do you guys use a smooth bottom when laying sewer or water lines? I know anyone in this business for a while knows never to do this with drainage trenches or septic systems.


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

I'm new to this ,what is meant by smooth bottom ,please

NO JOKES


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

Digger1799 said:


> Here is another question: Do you guys use a smooth bottom when laying sewer or water lines? I know anyone in this business for a while knows never to do this with drainage trenches or septic systems.


Digger, Imo with sewers you would be using a pea gravel for bedding the pipe, and water lines You would be bedding bottom and over water line with sand so I see having a smooth bottom of no value. I'm not saying you don't need to have someone laboring getting rid of rocks and cleaning up the bottom of trench.


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

Drift I think what Digger was referring to was when you take the heel of the bucket and drag it along the bottom surface to make a smooth leveled surface. Now in preparing a septic area or trench you wouldn't want to do this cause it will cause ( especially if you have any clay content in the soils ) the surface to smear compromising the soils ability to let water to pass through. So in preparing a septic area let's say you would want to just RAKE the bottom area with the teeth on the bucket and place and work in alittle the septic fill.


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

*Thank's Jmic*

Makes sense . Will be doing My own septic in the sierras this summer.
Have a little shack at 7000 ft. I,ll be leaning on You guys then.Plan to use a local septic eng.


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

Digger1799 said:


> Here is another question: Do you guys use a smooth bottom when laying sewer or water lines? I know anyone in this business for a while knows never to do this with drainage trenches or septic systems.


I dig with my bucket slightly curled. It gives a decent bottom and keeps the teeth sharper too.


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

jmic said:


> Drift I think what Digger was referring to was when you take the heel of the bucket and drag it along the bottom surface to make a smooth leveled surface. Now in preparing a septic area or trench you wouldn't want to do this cause it will cause ( especially if you have any clay content in the soils ) the surface to smear compromising the soils ability to let water to pass through. So in preparing a septic area let's say you would want to just RAKE the bottom area with the teeth on the bucket and place and work in alittle the septic fill.


Thanks for the much better defination. This was exactly what I ment. nI like to do this as a poor mans version of compating a trench. We are not required to compact residential sewer and water main trenches here, just commercial. We also use Sand under and 12" over Water Mains and Pea or 3/4" gravle in Sewer Laterals and Main's.I also like to add the Utility tape 12" above the top of the pipe.


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