# Why back roll???



## JknDecor (Mar 13, 2014)

Just curious as to how many of you are back rolling your walls and ceilings when spraying and why. I usually don't but am curious as to what the benefits are. Ive also noticed when spraying ceilings in a room with a lot of sunlight i often get small lines that remain after everything has dried. Oh and lastly if i do back roll what roller would u recommended? 

Thanks Guys


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## stombaugh85 (Jul 23, 2012)

I would assume those small lines are from incorrect pressure. Try turning pressure up a bit to eliminate tails. 

How do you touch up if you don't back roll?
" Master Painter" hahahaha


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I'm curious about this. Lowes had some people painting the stucco on their buildings here. They were spraying and back rolling but why the need to do this on stucco where you couldn't tell if its been done with a sprayer or roller either way. Does it give the paint a better bond or just level out the spray?


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

BCConstruction said:


> I'm curious about this. Lowes had some people painting the stucco on their buildings here. They were spraying and back rolling but why the need to do this on stucco where you couldn't tell if its been done with a sprayer or roller either way. Does it give the paint a better bond or just level out the spray?


I'm not an expert but regarding exterior, if you don't back brush or roll, the paint does not adhere as well and fails prematurely. I have a friend who is a painter and the sprayed a house and back brushed 3 sides and not the 4th. This was SW duration which I think is about a 10 year paint. After 4 years the sprayed side was failing and at 7 years the other sides were still good. 

Again, no expert, just makes sense that it might help with adhesion.

As far as interior on walls you can't touch it up without the roller texture plus it helps even everything out.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Backrolling the first coat of primer ensures that it saturates and just doesn't sit on the surface.

As for rough textures I believe that it works the paint into the low areas.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

So what they were doing with 3 guys they could have just done with 1 lol. They had a guy on the sprayer unit and 2 guys in a lift and one was spraying and one using the roller. Wouldn't it be more cost effective and as quick just to put the paint on with the roller and be done with the other 2 guys!


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

With synthetic stucco especially the back rolling works it into the spots that the sprayer didn't get it into. You can actually see the old color from certain angles if you don't back roll. 

For interiors there are many reasons: so you can touch up, so you can spray it heavier and even it out without drips, so it looks better.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> So what they were doing with 3 guys they could have just done with 1 lol. They had a guy on the sprayer unit and 2 guys in a lift and one was spraying and one using the roller. Wouldn't it be more cost effective and as quick just to put the paint on with the roller and be done with the other 2 guys!


Rolling requires too many steps back and forth to the paint. With a sprayer you can coat a much larger area much faster and the guy that is backrolling never has to take the roller off the wall. It's actually much faster. Don't know why they had the 3rd guy though.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Back rolling for stucco is a must. There is a huge difference. Especially when it is a rougher texture. 

A sprayer can put more paint on the wall faster than just rolling. When we spray, say a skip trowel, we spray enough on the wall to where it is almost running off. In a 3' by 8' space when doing this the roller will run out of paint if you don't continue spraying at this pace. 

Back rolling fills in all the voids. I will use a 1 1/4" Lamb skin to paint stucco.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Does it give the paint a better bond or just level out the spray?


Back rolling does both. :thumbsup:


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

The stripe you see is from improper mil thickness. When you spray you are supposed to overlap each pass 50%. Well, we are humans not robots. So the overlap will never be perfect. The stripe is the thin spot. 

You can try remedying this stripe with a cross hatch spray pattern. First pass horizontal, second pass vertical. But sometimes even that is a crapshoot.

So it is best to backroll any area that requires more than one "row" to simply avoid the headache altogether.

TNT is right, no more dipping in the bucket saves tremendous amounts of time. Even doing it solo is faster than stopping several times for a refill in each room. 

Rolling is fast, but imagine how much faster it is if you didn't have to stop. Ever. 

For alot of people its hard to grasp, & seems counter productive. Until you do it. Then you say "why haven't I been doing this the whole time?!"


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## stombaugh85 (Jul 23, 2012)

Driftweed said:


> TEven doing it solo is faster than stopping several times for a refill in each room.


One note on spraying solo. 
The paint drys alot quicker so dont get ahead of yourself , spray one section and roll immediately , just my .02


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Rolling requires too many steps back and forth to the paint. With a sprayer you can coat a much larger area much faster and the guy that is backrolling never has to take the roller off the wall. It's actually much faster. Don't know why they had the 3rd guy though.


Who steps back and forth to the paint?


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

hdavis said:


> Who steps back and forth to the paint?


Does your pan follow you?
We had a new guy who would roll an entire room and never move the pan. We explained some things to him. 

I will usually leave it till I get where I am taking more than 2 or 3 steps to the pan. I don't want to bend down and move it every time I would have to take a step to get there.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

hdavis said:


> Who steps back and forth to the paint?


Steps as in process, not just physical steps. You have to go back abd forth to the paint to many times just rolling. You can get maybe three vertical 8' rows on each load. With spraying the roller never really leaves the surface.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Does your pan follow you?
> We had a new guy who would roll an entire room and never move the pan. We explained some things to him.
> 
> I will usually leave it till I get where I am taking more than 2 or 3 steps to the pan. I don't want to bend down and move it every time I would have to take a step to get there.


0 Steps, just scoot it along with my foot or the roller.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Steps as in process, not just physical steps. You have to go back abd forth to the paint to many times just rolling. You can get maybe three vertical 8' rows on each load. With spraying the roller never really leaves the surface.


I agree with this - just loading a roller correctly can take almost as much time as rolling the wall. The other thing is getting a roller ready to put paint on a wall takes a little time - prewet, spin out, load and soak, reload. I can be doing other things while the roller is soaking, but it makes a difference in start to finish time on a one room repaint.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

hdavis said:


> 0 Steps, just scoot it along with my foot or the roller.


Half the time I try that I mess up my tarp or something else would happen. I don't mind bend down and picking it up a few times per room.
Maybe I'll try it again.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> So what they were doing with 3 guys they could have just done with 1 lol. They had a guy on the sprayer unit and 2 guys in a lift and one was spraying and one using the roller. Wouldn't it be more cost effective and as quick just to put the paint on with the roller and be done with the other 2 guys!


Have you ever used a roller?

Dip, blot, squeeze out excess, lift to wall, too much paint....perfect....too little paint.

And there is no tray to accidentally step on.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

hdavis said:


> 0 Steps, just scoot it along with my foot or the roller.


Ditto. I keep a small piece of plastic under the pan to catch any drips, and grab the pan and slid it closer with the end of my roller

Unless the floor is tile or something with lipped edges. Then I pull the plastic to move the tray so I don't spill.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

SamM said:


> Ditto. I keep a small piece of plastic under the pan to catch any drips, and grab the pan and slid it closer with the end of my roller
> 
> Unless the floor is tile or something with lipped edges. Then I pull the plastic to move the tray so I don't spill.


I haven't used a pan in forever. Bucket is the way to go.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I haven't used a pan in forever. Bucket is the way to go.


That sounds messy as crap... What kind of bucket?


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> That sounds messy as crap... What kind of bucket?


:thumbsup:


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

Sir Mixalot said:


> :thumbsup:


We rarely buy 5's cause we until now haven't had a sprayer and aren't usually doing bulk of one color. If you were just painting a bathroom for example I assume you would use a pan instead? 

Do you start with pouring some into a cut bucket? Seems it would be difficult with a full bucket otherwise.

I see benefits in that you don't have to fill a pan often and the screen looks like it would clean out fast. But it wouldn't move as easy as a pan being more full.

I guess in just overall curious why you would use it? Lol. Never seen it done before.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> We rarely buy 5's cause we until now haven't had a sprayer and aren't usually doing bulk of one color. If you were just painting a bathroom for example I assume you would use a pan instead?
> 
> Do you start with pouring some into a cut bucket? Seems it would be difficult with a full bucket otherwise.
> 
> ...


I don't buy fives either. But I do buy more than gallon and they should be boxed. So I mix in a five, throw a screen in, which is optional, and go to town.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I don't buy fives either. But I do buy more than gallon and they should be boxed. So I mix in a five, throw a screen in, which is optional, and go to town.


Was boxed an auto complete on mixed?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

4 cans to a box - mix them together to make sure they are exact matches. You can pour it back in the cans if you want, or leave it in the bucket.

I get most of my paint in 5 gallon pails - 1 gallon cans for trim.

I know some guys that roll out of a bucket using 9" and 6" rollers. They leave the roller covers in the bucket and put the lid back on - never clean them. I haven't tried it - seems a little messy to me, but no cleaning a cover ever and no prewetting and loading before you start rolling is attractive for us lazy people.:blink:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

FWIW, for me, the driver for looking at spraying much more than I have is carpal tunnel. I'm losing feel for the brush, and the longer it takes to complete a paint job, the worse it is. As long as I can maintain standards, I'll wind up being a spraying fool.

The other gI'm looking at is the paint and primer in one. I haven't been impressed so far, but I need to get serious and see if I can realistically drop a primer coat on drywall / repairs, and just go with 2 top coats. We'll see.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Half the time I try that I mess up my tarp or something else would happen. I don't mind bend down and picking it up a few times per room.
> Maybe I'll try it again.


Some pans don't scoot well. 18" roller trays do, at least the ones I've used. Rounded edges, nothing to snag.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Was boxed an auto complete on mixed?


It's called boxing when you mix multiple cans if the same color to ensure an even color through out the batch.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Even if your the worlds fastest roller pan scooter, you still have to fill it. Period.

Backrolling you don't. The screen for the fiver is a compromise, but you still have to take the roller off the wall.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

I have the perfect experiment unit this weekend: 2bdrm townhome whiteout, flooring being replaced. Just got it prepped.

Got 10 gal S.W. shurscrub eggshell to play with.

Typically I backroll. This one I won't. We'll see how it goes. I could use some fine tuning on technique.

Anything anyone wants me to try?


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

Driftweed said:


> Anything anyone wants me to try?


Yes. Go back on Monday and pretend you're filling a nail hole and really put some joint compound on in the center of the main wall, right where a picture would be. When the JC is dry, touch the area up without using your sprayer and see if you can tell where the JC was. 
:detective:


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

aha! roller or brush? I'll do both although i already know the results.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

I find it hard to believe that a painter with a real masters designation would ask such a question.
Spray alone, will leave it on the surface. 
Rolling will push it into the substrate, and it will stick better , have a proper texture to it and prevent flashing, if it has been properly primed.
Paint and primer in one product just means that it will stick to most surfaces.
Trying to paint a translucent base paint over a colour requires a seperate primer coat in my opinion
Most painters I have seen , I would call applicators, because they can cut and roll well, but don't really understand the product they are using or why.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Sir Mixalot said:


> Yes. Go back on Monday and pretend you're filling a nail hole and really put some joint compound on in the center of the main wall, right where a picture would be. When the JC is dry, touch the area up without using your sprayer and see if you can tell where the JC was.
> :detective:


This is one of those cases I'm trying paint and primer in one. If I can find any that work, it'll save me a boat load of time.

After that, I'm going unicorn hunting.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Driftweed said:


> aha! roller or brush? I'll do both although i already know the results.


I'd have a shot at matching with a brush.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

It's perfectly doable with a brush...up to a certain size. I would venture to say a dab is fine, but say a shoe scuff mark I'd just dip the 4" roller and hit it.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

B.D.R. said:


> I find it hard to believe that a painter with a real masters designation would ask such a question.
> Spray alone, will leave it on the surface.
> Rolling will push it into the substrate, and it will stick better , have a proper texture to it and prevent flashing, if it has been properly primed.
> Paint and primer in one product just means that it will stick to most surfaces.
> ...


I don't know anybody who can tell me how a particular paint will perform in a given situation without testing it.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

hdavis said:


> I don't know anybody who can tell me how a particular paint will perform in a given situation without testing it.


Chemistry of the paint. More advanced painters can tell quality by the ingredients. They also can tell adhesion and all other sorts of things that way. 

That stuff is beyond me for now, but I would live to learn it.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Driftweed said:


> It's perfectly doable with a brush...up to a certain size. I would venture to say a dab is fine, but say a shoe scuff mark I'd just dip the 4" roller and hit it.


And have a little stippling. Maybe a foam roller is good enough to get the surface as smooth as a straight spray, but that would depend on the paint. For a rolled surface, I brush stipple on small areas, and roll for lager areas.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

Exactly my point.
Phone the 1 800 number ,talk to the manufacturer. find out what is in it, and why


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

Talk about ingredient like Titanium, talcom powder, glycol, other VOC's etc .
What has been taken out to meet the new standards, what has replaced it.
Most guy's will have a Deer in the headlight look.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

You know, we have all these threads about the basics of painting techniques, but never an advanced one discussing chemistry.

Why is that?


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

That is a good question.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Driftweed said:


> Chemistry of the paint. More advanced painters can tell quality by the ingredients. They also can tell adhesion and all other sorts of things that way.


All hype, IMO. "quality" is used to sell it to people. Paint formulation these days isn't as straight forward as it was when I started (latex wasn't that good back then - oil was pretty universal).


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

There are full time professionals coming up with paint formulations, and even they can't predict performance a priori. Something as simple as TiO2 and talc isn't really that simple. What are the particle size distributions, what are the particle shapes, and if the TiO2 encapsulates the talc, that's a whole different situation.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Our local hardware store has a guy who is a paint chemistry geek/guru. If I am having a problem, I ask him and he can usually give me a great deal of insight as to what is happening with the paint chemically.

There has been so many different formulations in the past few years. It seems we are in another try it and see stage with the new low VOC paints. 

From what I understand, it causes them to absorb more moisture as the humidity changes. Anyone who does exterior paint in the fall or early spring can see it. I've seen some of the paints just swell as I'm looking at them. It spreads differently in the morning, than the afternoon, than in the evening. 

I had some gloss exterior stay tacky all winter a few years back. Came back to finish after 5 months of solid rain and it was still catching dust. Two days of nice dry sun and it was cured.

As for backrolling, I do it to the first coat, whether it is a color coat, or a primer coat. If it is exterior and the surface is less than perfect, I'll backroll the first color coat as well. Lap siding gets back brushed.

Oh yeah, and use a bucket. Much faster and cleaner. For touch-up or rolling trim, I just use a one gallon bucket with a small screen and a 3/8 wienie roller. I'm sure you all put your rollers on handles, but you would be surprised at how many guys I've run into who don't.


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## Caslon (Dec 15, 2007)

Driftweed said:


> .
> 
> Anything anyone wants me to try?


Ya...spray it out without backrolling, and see if you go back to backrolling again. :laughing:


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

I am more than willing to not backroll. When I first started spraying last year, I got the stripes. So I talked w/my local shop, & he explained to me mil thickness issue. 
He said it's just plain easier to backroll, plus it has all the benefits everyones already listed. That was enough for me.

I still try to get away without it on occasion, just because In my eyes it takes skill to eliminate the stripes. 

Hell these walls probably got a dozen or more coats on them anyways from rolling lol.


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## instock (Nov 17, 2012)

Driftweed said:


> You know, we have all these threads about the basics of painting techniques, but never an advanced one discussing chemistry.
> 
> Why is that?


I can barely spell oxidative cross-linking. :jester:


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

Regardless if you agree or disagree with back rolling, there is some great information in this link! :thumbup:

From the Painting and Decorating Contractors of America (PDCA) website:

http://www.pdca.org/assets/events/Supplemental+Information.pdf



> 7. *Back Roll*: A method where freshly applied paint (wet) is smoothed out with an undipped roller to even the appearance and improve uniformity.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Of course, considering most painters I've met, there's this:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=back+roll


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Sir Mixalot said:


> Regardless if you agree or disagree with back rolling, there is some great information in this link! :thumbup:
> 
> From the Painting and Decorating Contractors of America (PDCA) website:
> 
> http://www.pdca.org/assets/events/Supplemental+Information.pdf


I notice a mention of all the problems people have been having with primers:whistling


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Doing a massive color change (turd brown semi gloss to eggshell white) & thought of this thread.

Figured with the ultra deep color it would highlight what we talk about.

Dont worry, its just the primer coat of 3 coats. So it doesnt have to look good.

Backroll, backroll, backroll!


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## D.E.P.S. (Aug 3, 2013)

I love spray and backroll. Spraying alone will usually show off all the minor imperfections that a back roll will hide. I never spray without back rolling unless it is primer.


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## straightedgellc (Jul 12, 2014)

I always back roll, but i'm not pro with a sprayer either. It seems to level the paint out and eliminate pressure lines. I would use a 1*" roller with 1/2" nap...


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> I'm curious about this. Lowes had some people painting the stucco on their buildings here. They were spraying and back rolling but why the need to do this on stucco where you couldn't tell if its been done with a sprayer or roller either way. Does it give the paint a better bond or just level out the spray?


you should have asked the guys where they got the paint , because it did not come from lowes!!, i bet it was sw.:laughing:


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## PennCoat (Apr 15, 2014)

Backrolling really helps the coat saturate into the substrate. And the more its saturated into the substrate, the better the adhesion.


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## Dorman Painting (May 2, 2006)

One thing backrolling achieves that hasn't been mentioned is that it makes sanding in between coats much easier too. Spray a primer coat on new drywall and then feel how rough it feels, then spray and backroll your next wall, the difference is night and day. 

On new construction, I can easily get away with spraying my ceilings and backrolling out of a bucket and call it done. BTW, if you folks are rolling out of pans....well, nevermind!!lol


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