# Tankless Water heaters



## sprayer48 (Apr 10, 2008)

Hey Guys, need some advise here plz.

I'm a gc and also do some painting in this slow market.
In my home I have a power vented 75g hwh. reehm ? anyway its 9 years old and leaking a bit. Was interested in the tankless hwh's. Have never installed one, only heard that after 10 min uf use the how water runs out.
I've heard this from two different plumbers now.
Is that true. does the brand have anything to do with it?
thanks
mark


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## nhmaster3015 (Sep 6, 2008)

If you have a 75 gallon tank water heater than you are used to having all the hot water you want. You will hate a tankless.:thumbsup: You will never recover the cost of the unit and installation. :thumbsup: Even though you hate it you will tell everyone else that it is wonderfull because you won't want to feel stupid for putting it in in the first place. :thumbsup: Do yourself a favor and put in another tank heater.


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## maceycon (Nov 13, 2008)

I have 1 in my house and love it. I have a Noritz direct vent gas. I helped a plumber friend put it in. I am a gc not a plumber. It only took couple hours. My gas bill went down in the summer about 10% and so far this winter about 25%. I think I have the 9 gal per minute model. We never run out of hot water, can run two appliances at once and we don't wait any longer than before for hot water.:clap:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I have a Rinnai in my house, Model 2532. My house is 2 full baths. Thing I was told is nothing exceeds 30' from WH to fixture which is good and which is why I have no complaints about a tankless.

I have heard horror stories on remodels about delays, I am also told the runs are way too long for a tankless...is this truth or fiction I have no idea.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

I installed an electric one 3 yrs ago & I would not ever go back to a tank or off the furnace. We have all the hot water we need (just 2 of us) & it is probably already paid for itself. I think they are absolutly the only way to go-instead of heating water all day long.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I thought the whole purpose of an "instantaneous" water heater was that it doesnt run out of hot water ever. You can have long lag times for distant fixtures so you may be better served with a 2 units than 1 remote unit. I also believe a gas unit regulates the amount of heat you are asking for with burner intensity verses electric that only heats one way all the time. If its not a new house or single story I dont think its cost effective at all.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

sprayer48 said:


> Hey Guys, need some advise here plz.
> 
> I'm a gc and also do some painting in this slow market.
> In my home I have a power vented 75g hwh. reehm ? anyway its 9 years old and leaking a bit. Was interested in the tankless hwh's. Have never installed one, only heard that after 10 min uf use the how water runs out.
> ...


Are you using gas or electric?

If electric stay away from the tankless.

If gas, they are OK but a gas water heater is efficient and practically impossible to run out of hot water.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

tom m said:


> I thought the whole purpose of an "instantaneous" water heater was that it doesnt run out of hot water ever. You can have long lag times for distant fixtures so you may be better served with a 2 units than 1 remote unit. I also believe a gas unit regulates the amount of heat you are asking for with burner intensity verses electric that only heats one way all the time. If its not a house or single story I dont think its cost effective at all.


 An "instantaneous" does not run out of hot water as a tank will. I agree You can have longer lag times for distant fixtures. Electric does not heat one way all the time. There is a heat setting on them that you manually adjust your Temperature. "winter colder water needs to be turned up a notch" 
Can;t really figure out your last sentence but it would depend on the size of house and if it already had Gas I would go that route. Electric is very cost efficient for a single story house & apartments, condo's etc. I work for so many single people that have a 40 or 50 gal electric water tank sitting there wasting $$$$........... What a waste! Go Tankless- Can't be beat!!!!


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

before making any solid decisions, cost out the installation. Depending where is is installed, the installation can be quite expensive, not even consiedering the grand or there-a-bouts for the heater itself.

Some homes do not have the electrical capacity to add a tankless heater. In either fuel, if you are installing in a different place the the currently used one, it can get pricey.


as to running out of hot water? It should never happen but you need to do your homework first. Tankless heaters are rated at GPM at a determined temp rise. In other words, if it is rated at 5 GPM at a 50º rise, it will take 55º water and make it 105º and do that at a rate of 5 GPM. If you have a higher use (flow greater than 5 GPM) the heater will not be able to provide that 50º rise. So, make sure the heater will produce the heat rise at the required GPM you need.

One other thing I have heard folks complain about. Due to the fact that most heaters are of limited heat rise, hot water usage for showers and dishes and the such utilize all, if not mostly, only hot water with no cold used to temper. That results in less flow than having 120º+ water and needing the cold to temper that water. Showers are not quite as invigorating as they do not produce as much force.


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

The mods should just delete this thread. In all the years I have been hearing about tankless and the questions people ask about them....this has to be one of the most UN-informed threads I have ever seen. THere is almost nothing accurate in all the responces...not trying to be a dick...just a fact.

To the OP and anyone who wants to actually learn facts do a search. THis forum already contains the answers and truths on the topic.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

JamesNLA said:


> The mods should just delete this thread. In all the years I have been hearing about tankless and the questions people ask about them....this has to be one of the most UN-informed threads I have ever seen. THere is almost nothing accurate in all the responces...not trying to be a dick...just a fact.
> 
> To the OP and anyone who wants to actually learn facts do a search. THis forum already contains the answers and truths on the topic.


 
mind pointing out the incorrect answers?

Here is but one link to support my response:

http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/

want more? I can provide.

Oh, and the one thing I did not mention; water mineral content. Hard water will reduce the efficiency of the heater in a short time. You need to either have soft water naturally or install a water softener. The high BTU's will tend to cause the minerals to solidify in the heater quickly so the best method to prevent this is not to have the mineral content to begin with.


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## Wethead (Dec 2, 2008)

Oh stop Whining like a bunch of women !!


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

Nap, that is a great guide ! There always is alot of things to consider for your application before we decide what is best for it..... & On Demand Heaters whether Gas or Electric should be among those....... 
" I would like to have the money saved by using on demand heaters in my town over conventional tanks" Keep an open mind!!!!


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

JamesNLA said:


> The mods should just delete this thread. In all the years I have been hearing about tankless and the questions people ask about them....this has to be one of the most UN-informed threads I have ever seen. THere is almost nothing accurate in all the responces...not trying to be a dick...just a fact.
> 
> To the OP and anyone who wants to actually learn facts do a search. THis forum already contains the answers and truths on the topic.


We might see some unintentional comedy though.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

mrmike said:


> I installed an electric one 3 yrs ago & I would not ever go back to a tank or off the furnace. We have all the hot water we need (just 2 of us) & it is probably already paid for itself. I think they are absolutly the only way to go-instead of heating water all day long.


Which make and model?


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

joasis said:


> Which make and model?



As Far as Electric I think EEMAX makes the best electric Tankless water heater


http://www.eemaxinc.com/index.htm


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> We might see some unintentional comedy though.


I'm amused.




But then I'm often found
in a corner, staring at
shiny things. :shifty:


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Wethead said:


> Oh stop Whining like a bunch of women !!


.

I was simply asking james to either show he is right. If he is right, I will accept it. If he is wrong, that must mean he is...well... in his words; a dick.:w00t:






> JamesNLA
> 
> The mods should just delete this thread. In all the years I have been hearing about tankless and the questions people ask about them....this has to be one of the most UN-informed threads I have ever seen. *THere is almost nothing accurate in all the responces...not trying to be a dick...just a fact.*
> 
> To the OP and anyone who wants to actually learn facts do a search. THis forum already contains the answers and truths on the topic


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

nap said:


> .
> 
> I was simply asking james to either show he is right. If he is right, I will accept it. If he is wrong, that must mean he is...well... in his words; a dick.:w00t:


 
I've paid MORE than enough dues on this site...especially with respect to tankless....and am I a dick? you betcha. Especially when it seems everyone on this site is a tankless expert.

But for you...because your a sparkie and I like sparkies....here you go:



> In other words, if it is rated at 5 GPM at a 50º rise, it will take 55º water and make it 105º and do that at a rate of 5 GPM.


You're all ass backwards on this topic. It's what you said just the inverse of it. There are two things that need to be known for GPM output. 1) incomming temp and 2) target temp.

Incomming temp of 60f and a target of 120 is a 60 degree temp rise. THAN go look at your tankless manufacturers graph for that model and see what it will do with a 60 degree rise. That number will be ABOUT what the unit will do with respect to GPM output. This is of course providing the unit is installed correctly which many "plumbers" are incapable of doing. This figure is what determines which unit a customer could go with. Rinnai's are about 10-13% less output for the same price point compared to the Noritz brand.

If you do a search under tankless or words similar you can and will find very detailed information about tankless heaters - installations - troubleshooting - maintance - repair - sales- and just about all other things related to. What makes me laugh is when posters are telling people in other threads that tankless units run out of hot water after 10 minutes than come into here and ask if that's true THAN everyone BUT a plumber needs to throw their two cents in.....which most of it is just flat out wrong. And Wethead can say what he wants...I couldn't even begin to care, when you have spent the amount of time effort and energy on a topic such as tankless that I have AND offered alot of that experience and information free to everyone on this site....it just gets really old, and this thread is at the bottom of that barrel.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

*Now* I got my quarter's worth! :clap::laughing:


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

Chris Johnson said:


> I am also told the runs are way too long for a tankless...is this truth or fiction I have no idea.


No. Nor does the fact that a fixture is far away from the installation location have ANYTHING to do with how the tankless does its joj...


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## sprayer48 (Apr 10, 2008)

JamesNLA said:


> I've paid MORE than enough dues on this site...especially with respect to tankless....and am I a dick? you betcha. Especially when it seems everyone on this site is a tankless expert.
> 
> But for you...because your a sparkie and I like sparkies....here you go:
> 
> ...


hey jamesNLA. think you need a valium. I think you are a little high strung. Just because you spent some time on the subject before, you get all sensitive regarding the material. You're not the first one to respond to requests that have been discussed already, me included. I dont hear the others crying. If you do not want to answer, then don't. You are right you are a dick.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

> But for you...because your a sparkie and I like sparkies....here you go:
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


 A heater is rated to be able to raise the water temp a disignated amount at a given volume. That is a fact. If you exceed that volume, the heater will produce a lower heat gain. This should be included in the euqip specs. There is no GPM rating. There is a temp rise at a given volume. They do state " gpm rating" but what that is is the the designed flow rate for the given temp rise (they fail to list it as to what it actually is). The only thing that limits the actual GPM rating is the pressure and the pipes in the house, the pipes in the unit, and any restriction such as a chower head, hence, they could not possible advertise a GPM limitation with any accuracy what-so-ever.




> Incomming temp of 60f and a target of 120 is a 60 degree temp rise. THAN go look at your tankless manufacturers graph for that model and see what it will do with a 60 degree rise. That number will be ABOUT what the unit will do with respect to GPM output. This is of course providing the unit is installed correctly which many "plumbers" are incapable of doing. This figure is what determines which unit a customer could go with. Rinnai's are about 10-13% less output for the same price point compared to the Noritz brand


you said the same thing I did. 

actually, I do this a bit differently. I happen to do it just like Rinnai does with their calculator. Figure the volume of water needed to be heated. Determine the target temp, subtract from that temp the water supply temp and this provides the GPM and the rise needed at that GPM to provide expected results.

Simple? You bet it is. Even a plumber can do it. Well, maybe. Apparently you have run across too many that couldn't.



> . What makes me laugh is when posters are telling people in other threads that tankless units run out of hot water after 10 minutes than come into here and ask if that's true THAN everyone BUT a plumber needs to throw their two cents in.....which most of it is just flat out wrong


Did I say that? NO



> . And Wethead can say what he wants...I couldn't even begin to care, when you have spent the amount of time effort and energy on a topic such as tankless that I have AND offered alot of that experience and information free to everyone on this site....it just gets really old, and this thread is at the bottom of that barrel.


well, it's funny that you say the same thing I do only in different terms and you are right and I am wrong. Lovely, just lovely.

Since you like Rinnai, here is an excerpt from one of their units specs:

*



Specification Table

Click to expand...

*


> Minimum / Maximum Gas Rate (Input BTU/Hr.) 15,000 - 180,000
> Dimensions: 10"D x 14"W x 26" H
> Weight: 46 lbs.
> *7.5 GPM Maximum Hot Water Capacity at 35° Rise*
> *4.4 GPM Maximum Hot Water Capacity at 75° Rise*


So, with a little calculation, you can see if you start with 50º water and flow 7.5 gpm, you will end up with 85º water. If your flow is reduced to 4.4 gpm. you end up with 125º water. The more gpm, the lower the output temp i.e. less temp rise as volume increases. 

So, does the customer need a heater that provides more than 7.5 GPM at 85º or 4.4 GPM @ 125º? If so, then they need a larger heater. If they can do with less, they can use a smaller heater.

Oh, and to plumbers not being able to hook this up correctly?

"In and out", "supply", "hot" are all pretty simple terms. Not saying anything bad about plumbers but...


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## sprayer48 (Apr 10, 2008)

bwalley said:


> Are you using gas or electric?
> 
> If electric stay away from the tankless.
> 
> If gas, they are OK but a gas water heater is efficient and practically impossible to run out of hot water.


Hey guys, thanks for the responses. Appreciated.
Just to be clear.

I live in a 2-story home. old tank is gas. 4 baths. me/wife/daughter/son.
son is 45min away at school ( Northern Il University). Daughter will be in college this fall/09. Not sure how this affects the equation. All fixtures are within 30' of the utility room.
mark


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

nap said:


> Oh, and to plumbers not being able to hook this up correctly?
> 
> "In and out", "supply", "hot" are all pretty simple terms. Not saying anything bad about plumbers but...


If you are actually serious (as opposed to trying to tweak another member) then this is just disgusting.

Assuming you were serious you...

1. Stooped low. I hope you get the same respect you gave.

2. Just proved how ignorant you are about the subject matter.

Come on, tell us you were just trying to get a rise of out JamesNLA.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

there is a unit out there that will do what you want. You need to answer the questions (for yourself, I don;t need them answered) about installation practicallity and costs incurred if major work is needed.

that is going to list out at a quite large unit with 4 baths.

The one thing I would be cautious about; do not undersize the heater. If you do, you will simply suffer with not hot enough water and will regret the install. 

The one thing I like about the idea though; endless hot showers.


just a note: I think jamesNLA is getting screwed by somebody. I have never been asked to pay any dues, or even an initial app fee or anything similar. Maybe he should speak with the owners of the forum to get that looked at.:w00t:


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

You people are something special..... Nap...I don't "pay dues" because I was asked or required. I do it for the integrity of the professional plumber. I do it to hopfully educate others so they can be that much better of a contractor, I do it because I am tired of sorry ass morons opening up their mouths...like they know something. People talking out their asses all day long...especially loosers on this board. I can run circles around you all but I don't say how much better at this I am than you. I don't say how stupid you all sound talking about things you know nothing about because that serves no purpose....other than my own amusement. Nap...I have no issue with you nor do I care to argu with you about info on a glossy or front web page. I simply stated there was alot of mis information in the thread. And my issue wasn't with Nap, nor did I call him out on and say he was flat out wrong...I just said he was explaining it backwards. Ya know what though...I don't care....can't fix stupid....I've tried.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

sprayer48 said:


> hey jamesNLA. think you need a valium. I think you are a little high strung. Just because you spent some time on the subject before, you get all sensitive regarding the material. You're not the first one to respond to requests that have been discussed already, me included. I dont hear the others crying. If you do not want to answer, then don't. You are right you are a dick.


It's great to have opinions 
without facts isn't it?

*Non impediti ratione cogitationis conloquium currus!*


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

This thread is a hoot!


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

It's funny that none of them
even tried to do a search.
I sure learned more than 
I care to know reading James'
posts on tankless.


Like I said though....
there's another shiny thing!
Gotta go......


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

neolitic said:


> It's funny that none of them
> even tried to do a search.
> I sure learned more than
> I care to know reading James'
> posts on tankless.


You can't force someone to learn, and you can't fix stupid.



Hey look, a green car!


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## nhmaster3015 (Sep 6, 2008)

I feel the need to quite myself.

*Even though you hate it you will tell everyone else that it is wonderfull because you won't want to feel stupid for putting it in in the first place*

On other forums there are a couple guys that have installed these things, Noritz and Rinnai and have kept track of actual operational and installation costs. According to their figures neither one of them will ever re-coup the cost of installation.

Watching Rich Trethewy on this old house install a Rinnai and proclaim the marvelous benefit of the unit was doing a huge disservice to the puplic because people will blindly believe and follow his advice just because he's on the television. Facts are facts. I have been fighting this stuff for many many years going back to the solar craze of the 70's and now that's back again. It's all very very simple math. Unless the cost of the equipment takes a noze dive these things will never pay for themselves, but then neither will a Prius but folks still buy them.


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## nhmaster3015 (Sep 6, 2008)

I just have to add this little tidbit also because it very often get's overlooked by plumbers installing and home owners as well. The code clearly states that water supply must be calculated and sized for peak demand. That means that your water heater must be able to supply hot water, at specified pressure to more than one fixture at a time. Not all fixtures in the house mind you but more than just say a shower. If you take a look at table 604-3 IPC you will note that a shower takes 3gpm and lav 2 gpm and added together that puts the total above what a Rinnai will supply.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Play nice guys. And, more pretty interesting information is out there now. 

I think from what I have read, and my own experiences, tankless is very much like geo thermal....I think in my home, when we get there, we will do a Marathon Electric....and a good heat pump. Save 20k at least.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I just have to add this little tidbit also because it very often get's overlooked by plumbers installing and home owners as well. The code clearly states that water supply must be calculated and sized for peak demand. That means that your water heater must be able to supply hot water, at specified pressure to more than one fixture at a time. Not all fixtures in the house mind you but more than just say a shower. If you take a look at table 604-3 IPC you will note that a shower takes 3gpm and lav 2 gpm and added together that puts the total above what a Rinnai will supply.


Florida Building Code Plumbing doesn't make you account for all fixtures in a bathroom for residential jobs, because when someone is taking a shower, they aren't using the lav or the toilet.

If the developed length of hot water line is greater than 100', they have to use a recirculator.

Water heaters are cheap, are more energy efficient and work well, I have a 5 bedroom 3 bath house and have a 40 gallon electric water heater, even with 2 teenage girls (there are a total of 6 people in the house), we are fine.

In the early 80's I installed solar water heaters, they had a plan where you would pay $30 a month for 10 years and then give your $1500 tax credit to the company, we were doing installs like mad, we had one job where we took out a gas water heater, this guy lived with just he and his wiffe and a bunch of dogs, I asked him what his gas bill was, he said $8.00 per month, I said why are you having a solar water heater installed?

He said because he gets a 40% tax credit ($1500) on it and the energy is free, no matter how much hot water he uses.

I ended the conversation there because I was just an installer, but the salesman screwed this guy, he now was paying $30 a month for this system when his total gas bill was only $8, and he had a gas dryer, a gas stove, and his grill was gas, plus after his system is out of warranty (2 years) he will have the occassional service call, back then we were at $65 plus labor.

Solar is coming back and these tankless are the rage, one reason I am getting my plumbing contractors license is, I am jumping back on the Solar bandwagon.:thumbsup:


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## nhmaster3015 (Sep 6, 2008)

What about a 2 bath house with two people trying to take showers at the same time and then someone flips on the washing machine?

By all means, jump on the solar band wagon. There's money to be made there and the equipment is a whole lot easier to install than it used to be thanks to modular componants. Still won't pay off without subsidies but what the hell, someone's going to make a buck. Might as well be you. :thumbsup: BTW. though I'm not a fan of tankless heaters that doesn't stop me from selling them if the customer insists.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> What about a 2 bath house with two people trying to take showers at the same time and then someone flips on the washing machine?
> 
> By all means, jump on the solar band wagon. There's money to be made there and the equipment is a whole lot easier to install than it used to be thanks to modular componants. Still won't pay off without subsidies but what the hell, someone's going to make a buck. Might as well be you. :thumbsup: BTW. though I'm not a fan of tankless heaters that doesn't stop me from selling them if the customer insists.


The other 2 bathrooms and the washing machine and DW need to be able to be run at once, that is why many times a single tankless water heater does not work out well in many cases.

In a commercial job we did, we intsalled one, I was talked into it by the plumber, it has been in about 18 months and so far has been ok, they only use it for a break room sink a DW and the lavatories, we are in Florida so the temperature rise is not that great, 72 to 120, and there are no showers on it.

But since we do not have a softener on the building, it will get a bunch of lime and scale in it and I will end up yanking it out and putting a small water heater in it.

This is on a 60 amp DP circuit, a water heater would be on a 30 amp DP circuit.

The up charge on the new electrical circuit was more than what a water heater would have cost.

If I have a client that insists on a tankless or a solar water heater, I will sell it to them.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

> =JamesNLA;581176]You people are something special..... Nap...I don't "pay dues" because I was asked or required.


That was obviously a joke.

note to self; james has absolutely no sense of humor and doesn't understand humor.




> I do it for the integrity of the professional plumber. I do it to hopfully educate others so they can be that much better of a contractor, I do it because I am tired of sorry ass morons opening up their mouths...like they know something.


hmm, sorry ass morons. and this is coming from james. must really mean something. NOT!!




> People talking out their asses all day long...especially loosers on this board.


then why are you even here if this board is so full of losers. (btw whizkid, losers is spelled with 1 "O". Looser is something you have to worry about your women being)



> I can run circles around you all but I don't say how much better at this I am than you.


well, you just did. It's a shame you are both wrong AND a liar.



> I don't say how stupid you all sound talking about things you know nothing about because that serves no purpose....other than my own amusement.


You just did so I guess that makes you a liar, twice over.



> Nap...I have no issue with you nor do I care to argu with you about info on a glossy or front web page.


I offered to produce more if you had a problem with my facts. I can support them all day long. Hey wait, I did, from the Rinnai site.



> I simply stated there was alot of mis information in the thread.


So rather than simply bitching about how wrong EVERYBODY is, make the corrections..but nnnnooooo!!!, you just *****.



> And my issue wasn't with Nap,


Uh, ya, sure.



> nor did I call him out on and say he was flat out wrong


Hhhmm, then what does this mean:


> You're all ass backwards on this topic. It's what you said just the inverse of it.


 In my book, that is you telling me I am wrong.




> ...I just said he was explaining it backwards. Ya know what though...I don't care....can't fix stupid....I've tried.


You know what they say; take care of what's at home before you try to change the world.




> 22rifleQuote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was simply pointing out what I saw in james post. He claims to be the ONLY person that knows how to hook up a water heater. That is HIM saying how stupid plumbers are in general. I merely accentuated his points.
Hooking up a water heater is not difficult. If it is, you are in the wrong trade. You can take that any way you want but if you can't do that right, I would worry about any work that person did.

and james, you still have not shown that anything I said was wrong. Not a thing. Unless you can, I believe I am due an apology from you.

Now 22, that is serious. 
and yes, it was definately a tweak. I know a LOT of intelligent plumbers that something as simple as hooking up a water heater is no problem at all.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Ok, enough already.


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