# Problems with tight Trex butt joints?



## RowdyRed94 (Jan 23, 2006)

Trex recommends a 3/8" gap when installing in Minnesota in February. As in the past, my boss wants all joints tight. What are the worst cases you've seen of buckling, etc?


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## A+Carpenter (Apr 19, 2005)

RowdyRed94 said:


> Trex recommends a 3/8" gap when installing in Minnesota in February. As in the past, my boss wants all joints tight. What are the worst cases you've seen of buckling, etc?


I was politely saying your boss was book educated and has the lack of know how to put this product together correctly. Obviously you would be here questioning your fathers steadfast know how to use this product with the whole time looking at it from every angle. The whole warranty expansion gaps,weather, fastening, ECT. 

When you put it tight and 2 years the homeowners call you back and you say hey not my fault its the products. Then the TREX rep comes down and punks you on the job and says its the installers fault. KAPEESH all the time in front of the homeowner. 

Go get you the specs on the product and you will see what I am saying is true



Your boss will be getting allot of call backs when it does this (_____) on you.

Good thing is you will have work with him for awhile. I am sorry I was hard on you ROWDY.


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## RowdyRed94 (Jan 23, 2006)

Easy on the lecture there, highhorse. My boss is my father and we maintain one of the highest building standards in the state along with top-notch after-sale service. His business was built on it.

What I'm really looking for is actual anecdotal evidence so we know exactly what to expect, rather than relying on Trex's CYA oversized gaps. We're only abutting two boards in any deck section(so they can expand outwardly), with spline boards and appropriate gaps between. Perhaps I should have given more info initially.

BTW, your first sentence makes no sense to me. Please rewrite it or elaborate so that I may learn.


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

AdamMeider said:


> Your boss will be getting allot of call backs
> 
> Good thing is you will have work with him for awhile.


I second that, in addition, debris will collect there and if nothing else you will have voided warrenty mildue staining problems to boot.


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## RowdyRed94 (Jan 23, 2006)

Something tells me you're misunderstanding what a "butt joint" is. We aren't setting the side gaps to zero.

It's a 32 foot run where we're staggering the butt joints and hiding some of them under a porch wall. The ones that are exposed will really mess with the look of the veranda, so we're trying this to see how it goes. Considering we're only butting two boards in a stretch, I doubt we'll have problems. Worst case scenario, we'll replace some decking and have something to share with you folks!

I'd still like to hear from anyone who actually has had problems. Thanks.


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

RowdyRed94 said:


> Perhaps I should have given more info initially.


Perhaps you should have:notworthy


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

RowdyRed94 said:


> ...What are the worst cases you've seen of [Trex] buckling [because of butt joints]?


Please forgive me from straying from topic. Your website has some really nice images of beautiful homes. What's up with the use of trex? Why not a material more in keeping with the beauty of the houses and their surroundings?


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

gorrilla glue, buiscut, double joist, end of story.:thumbsup:


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## A+Carpenter (Apr 19, 2005)

Bone Saw said:


> gorrilla glue, buiscut, double joist, end of story.:thumbsup:


SECOND THAT. Rowdy I edited the post I made in your honor. :thumbsup:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Holy bat crap bat man!

Trex says 3/8 inch gap, you have to leave 3/8 inch gap or you void the warranty. If the customer wan't Trex he gets Trex along with all the baggage that goes with it, such as 3/8 inch gaps, right?


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

RowdyRed94 said:


> Something tells me you're misunderstanding what a "butt joint" is


Wrong!

Something tells me that you're a crackshot with an edit button:thumbsup:


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Holy bat crap bat man!
> 
> Trex says 3/8 inch gap, you have to leave 3/8 inch gap or you void the warranty. If the customer wan't Trex he gets Trex along with all the baggage that goes with it, such as 3/8 inch gaps, right?


That is why you have to improvise adapt and overcome or it's off to deckbuilders purgatory


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## RowdyRed94 (Jan 23, 2006)

PipeGuy said:


> Please forgive me from straying from topic. Your website has some really nice images of beautiful homes. What's up with the use of trex? Why not a material more in keeping with the beauty of the houses and their surroundings?


Good question, and the answer is simple... Central Minnesotaitis. People are conservative, largely Catholic and cheap as hell. We're struggling just to sell mid-level home automation around here. I assume you're speaking of tropical hardwoods and the like. Ain't gonna happen, bud.


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## RowdyRed94 (Jan 23, 2006)

Bone Saw said:


> Wrong!
> 
> Something tells me that you're a crackshot with an edit button:thumbsup:


Then where did your debris statement refer to? A tight butt joint isn't going to collect more debris than one with a gap.







I'm not sure how connecting the boards with biscuits and glue will resolve a compression problem, either. 

Yes, I did edit my post. I didn't intend to be deceptive and I apoligize. I know that was poor forum ettiquette.


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

RowdyRed94 said:


> Then where did your debris statement refer to? .


To your 1st and 3rd post that *failed* to specify a butt joint until you edited it as such, probably as I was typing.



RowdyRed94 said:


> I'm not sure how connecting the boards with biscuits and glue will resolve a compression problem, either.


It will do more to ensure not having F'ed up looking joints this summer than doing nothing at all running tight butt joints as you describe.


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

Since you were asking what to expect as a result of voiding your customers manufacturers warrenty, I answered accordingly, I wouldn't know as I don't practice voiding warrenties for my customers, rather find creative ways to preserve them. And with a 25 year transferrably warrenty thats all the more reason not to deviate from install specs bud


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## Woodcrafter74 (Oct 5, 2005)

RowdyRed94 said:


> Trex recommends a 3/8" gap when installing in Minnesota in February. As in the past, my boss wants all joints tight. What are the worst cases you've seen of buckling, etc?


Rowdy,
Actually, Trex recommends a gap of 3/16, not 3/8 for butt joints when installing below temps of 60. 3/8" is the width gapping.


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## bob the builder (Oct 6, 2005)

RowdyRed94 said:


> Trex recommends a 3/8" gap when installing in Minnesota in February. As in the past, my boss wants all joints tight. What are the worst cases you've seen of buckling, etc?



If you want to try it on just a couple, I would let the customer know what your doing so you don't look stupid when you get a call back. I'm sure trex recommends the gap for a reason but is the gap to excessive to cover their butts??? Who knows??? All I know is trex will not splinter, crack or warp!!!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

bob the builder said:


> If you want to try it on just a couple, I would let the customer know what your doing so you don't look stupid when you get a call back. I'm sure trex recommends the gap for a reason but is the gap to excessive to cover their butts??? Who knows??? All I know is trex will not splinter, crack or warp!!!


Is that picture one of those Trex decks that got exposed to the sun?


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

One other thing to consider with trex or any compostie for that matter is how it is sitting on the ground, *and that includes before you took delivery of it*, does it have to be on a level or perfectly flat surface no, but flat is key. If it has been sitting around on a bumpy uneven surface weather at the supplier or on site, it will be pure rubbish once installed as decking, I've seen it and have turned down deliveries from one of my earlier suppliers several times because of it. Kind of like new shingles put on in the winter, but it won't settle down when it warms up. A good supplier should receive it on long pallets *not* sleepers. once onsite it is mostly the very bottom pieces of the pile that are suseptible to this, every thing on top is usually ok. If you plan your order with railing parts on bottom by the time you assemble your railing it will take proper shape once installed. This does not pertain to decorative top/bottom rail components.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

RowdyRed94 said:


> ...People are conservative, largely Catholic and cheap as hell. We're struggling just to sell mid-level home automation around here.


It's funny how things are different from place to place. All the conservatives I know would no more have a Trex deck than they would a martini made with Seagram's gin. As for Catholics - I can count the conservative ones I know on one hand. And I have at least a couple of friends with $1M homes whose idea of acceptable home automation is whole house audio. Go figure.


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## bob the builder (Oct 6, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Is that picture one of those Trex decks that got exposed to the sun?


I found that picture along time ago when I was looking up some fading problems with trex on a I hate trex website. I would say it is probably the heat and some major shrinkage...

Bob


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

bob the builder said:


> and some major shrinkage...
> 
> Bob


I hate when that happens. 

Just havin' some fun.


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## RowdyRed94 (Jan 23, 2006)

Bone Saw said:


> To your 1st and 3rd post that *failed* to specify a butt joint until you edited it as such, probably as I was typing.


Bull, and thanks for the cheap shot. Both my thread title and third post spelled out b-u-t-t joints. Most of my editing is for spelling and grammar.


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## RowdyRed94 (Jan 23, 2006)

Woodcrafter74 said:


> Rowdy,
> Actually, Trex recommends a gap of 3/16, not 3/8 for butt joints when installing below temps of 60. 3/8" is the width gapping.


You're right. I was mistaken. It doesn't really change my question, though. I still haven't heard from anyone who's seen buckling in person.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

RowdyRed94 said:


> You're right. I was mistaken. It doesn't really change my question, though. I still haven't heard from anyone who's seen buckling in person.


All I want to know is do you care about the warranty or not?


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

RowdyRed94 said:


> I still haven't heard from anyone who's seen buckling in person.


And, you probably won't Rowdy. You see we install it properly as per the manufacturer's instructions and therefore have no personal experiences to relate to you. I personally haven't seen instances of buckling but I have been told about it happening.

What more are you looking for?


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

RowdyRed94 said:


> Good question, and the answer is simple... Central Minnesotaitis. People are conservative, largely Catholic and cheap as hell. We're struggling just to sell mid-level home automation around here. I assume you're speaking of tropical hardwoods and the like. Ain't gonna happen, bud.






I suppose the only way to answer your question is to conduct your own R&D experiment and/or subsidize your costomers voided manufacturers warrenty with one of your own. I'm sure your cheap, conservative, catholic customer base will be thrilled to know that you blatently don't give a hung rat about product warrenties, and they can rest assured because Minnisota's finest post sales customer service is only a booger flick away:thumbsup:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Chris is trying to substitute hung rat when ever he can to personally introduce it into the English lexicon. Personally I don't give a hung rat either way, but I know what you are up to!:w00t: I'll be back later, right now I have to go out and pick up the dog hung rats in the back yard.


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## A+Carpenter (Apr 19, 2005)

I dont like to argue my points with kids. There is a place for them. It's called the make me some lunch line.


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## RowdyRed94 (Jan 23, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> All I want to know is do you care about the warranty or not?


Of course. But as most of you know, product warrantees rarely come into play in construction. They almost all have enough loopholes to hang the entire population of Alcatraz. It comes down to quality, deliberate installation and the contractor's personal performance guarantee. 

It really was a simple question. Obviously you're all so elightened that you've never attempted to stray outside the box. Congrats, I suppose, but I know from personal experience and education that, very often, manufacturers install blanket procedures to exempt themselves from liability in rare cases. I don't believe that this should prevent me from achieving my personal quality standards, as long as I'm willing to back it up. I am, so spare me any further condescension. Thanks.

BoneSaw, you obviously like to shift responsibility for your workmanship elsewhere. If you're ok with telling your customers, "Hey, your Trex is warranted. Now tear it out, reinstall it and they might send you a check for a fraction of your expenses", go ahead. Carry on, big guy.

Adam, if that was directed at me... heck, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. No one's that arrogant, are they?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Clint I'm not trying to bust your hung rats on the question about warranty. I understand what you are saying about the warranty and the reality of companies squirming out of them sometimes, (_HEY, by the way look no farther than TREX! LOL, how about those class action lawsuits against them, those are cool huh?_) but...

... and the big but is this, are you willing to tell all your customers...

*"I am installing your Trex my way, and by the way because I'm doing it my way and not the way Trex says I have to do it, you need to know that your Trex 20 year warranty is null and voided. That's okay with you right?"*

Hey, if you are going to devulge that to your customers and roll the dice with the number of them that are going to ask for their deposit back then the warranty issue isn't an issue. Since I don't really know any contractors that would knowingly commit business suicide by doing that, it always comes back to you have to install according to the manufacturers instructions or you are screwing your customers. Right? Isn't it as simple as that?


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

RowdyRed94 said:


> you obviously like to shift responsibility for your workmanship elsewhere. If you're ok with telling your customers, "Hey, your Trex is warranted. Now tear it out, reinstall it and they might send you a check for a fraction of your expenses"


Wrong again! If ever that were the case, and I Installed it according to manufacturer specs. , then it no longer concerns me at that point.

This thread has nothing to do with decking, gaps, warrenties or earthshattering innovation in deck jointery, as you already answered your own question several times! Would you like to discuss the color of the sky next?


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## RowdyRed94 (Jan 23, 2006)

Thanks for your valueable input. Move along, please.


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## RowdyRed94 (Jan 23, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Hey, if you are going to devulge that to your customers and roll the dice with the number of them that are going to ask for their deposit back then the warranty issue isn't an issue. Since I don't really know any contractors that would knowingly commit business suicide by doing that, it always comes back to you have to install according to the manufacturers instructions or you are screwing your customers. Right? Isn't it as simple as that?


I agree, and I'll discuss the matter with my boss again. However, since I haven't recieved any real answers to the question I first posed, I'm left with no additional leverage in the matter. I was really hoping to take some horror stories with me.

The literature I most recenly viewed indicated a 10 year warranty on Trex. Thanks for mentioning the fact that it's now significantly increased in length, though it still carries the usual loopholes. That may make a good case, also.


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## A+Carpenter (Apr 19, 2005)

RowdyRed94 said:


> I agree, and I'll discuss the matter with my boss again. However, since I haven't recieved any real answers to the question I first posed, I'm left with no additional leverage in the matter. I was really hoping to take some horror stories with me.
> 
> The literature I most recenly viewed indicated a 10 year warranty on Trex. Thanks for mentioning the fact that it's now significantly increased in length, though it still carries the usual loopholes. That may make a good case, also.


Your question was not even valid in the first place. You made a statement questioning your bosses judgement on installation. 

Now please you move along to something more intuitive.

Bone and the rest you. I agree with you on your statements also.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

RowdyRed94 said:


> The literature I most recenly viewed indicated a 10 year warranty on Trex. Thanks for mentioning the fact that it's now significantly increased in length, though it still carries the usual loopholes. That may make a good case, also.


I don't know what the warranty is, I don't install Trex, but a quick check of their website would yield the actual length of warranty.

You're looking for people to tell you that they installed trex without proper spacing and it f'd up on them. My understanding is that you want this information to help convince your boss not to miss-install the product. Once again, it really is irrelevant. If your boss is installing Trex in a way that voids the warranty he is screwing the customer out of what they are paying for UNLESS he discloses to the customer what he is doing to them. That to me is more than enough ammunition and reason not to do what he is doing. The warranty is part of the package the customer is paying for, just like the color on the product it is a feature that goes into the cost of the product, if they don't get the warranty they are being screwed, it's as simple as that. 

Your bosses reply is probably something along the lines of the warranty is worthless and I am warrantying the installation personally. In the long run their may be more value to exactly what he is doing to the customer, but in my opinion it's up to the customer to make an informed decision and decide if that is what they want. Like I said, anything short of a full disclosure is screwing the customer.

As bad as Trex might be at a warranty claim, myself as a customer would still choose having a company the size of Trex stand behind the product over your bosses' company.


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## Niemann (Feb 26, 2006)

I just built a 60' x 10' deck... trex accents decking..... the joints should be 3/8" if its under 40 degrees.. b/c when it get warm that stuff expanses like no other.....


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## scentralpirate (Nov 16, 2005)

oy! what a buch of crab cakes in here.....

lets take a pole and ask who here has installed rubber decking (trex) personally and 2) who here has read the mfg install sheet?

local climate issues aside AND if memory serves 3/16th spacing,( I like to use a 8d common galv nail) on butt joints w/ cut ends being rounded over to prevent chipping at the ends AND it looks far better.

3/8 +/- between courses depending on how the courses lays out.

joists 12" o.c.

screws flush to the surface, not countersunk ( a drywall gun does great)

and plenty of jokes about recycled tennis shoes being made into a "high end" building product. or talking like tigger every time you finnish laying a board down ( cuz you like to bounce) :laughing: 

and one extra trick I do with trex (or any other deck I get a chance to) is to take some roofing felt, cut it into 1 1/2" strips and lay it over the joists to hide that equally ugly treated deck lumber that most people insist on using :furious:


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## RowdyRed94 (Jan 23, 2006)

Looks like we'll be opening the joints to 3/16 and routing the ends, like 'pirate suggested.


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