# Why I Hate Commercial Construction



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

“You can’t spray flammable coatings while remodeling a 3-room 2,000 square foot retail store, particularly with no ventilation” I explained to the site Superintendent.

“I’ve gotta get this painted” he replied.

“Fine”, I said, “I’m outta here. Have fun with the Fire Marshall. He’ll be here soon.”

I’m trying to recollect yesterday’s conversation as best I can, but it was much more animated than the above exchange, believe me.

After a two-hour drive, I arrived at the Lilly Pulitzer store in Naples, Florida. I’d been hired to make the hard seams in a Glacier White Corian cash wrap and back wrap. The store is a mess, the fault of bad housekeeping. Show me a messy jobsite and I’ll show you an incompetent superintendent. There is packaging cardboard, plastic, and unused pallets lying on the floor along with cut wire, conduit, and empty soda cans for perfect trip hazards. 

Right after I began working, I politely asked the Superintendent, Mr. Jim Stapleton, of Sachse Construction (say “taxi” with an “s” instead of a “t”), Detroit, Michigan, if he’d have the mess cleaned up. He did not reply. He did find time to cut an opening in the drywall, but he never found time to empty the dumpster cart.

I’m starting to think Mr. Stapleton hasn’t done much superintending. Why else, when he knew I was coming today, would he schedule five electricians and me to share the three-foot wide isle between the cash wrap and the back wrap simultaneously? I’m serious. Five electricians for a 12’ cash wrap. Maybe one for each access panel? Since I can’t speak Spanish, I had no idea what was so problematic with their job. In fact, my conversations with the Super are the only English I heard on this job.

By disassembly, I completed the back wrap seam, but Mr. Competent Super has allowed the cabinet installers to adhere the cash wrap top to the substrate. I pushed the seam as far apart as I could, decontaminated, and attempted a hard seam with adhesives. I’ll do an insert repair if that doesn’t work. I’d just cut the slot for the insert repair on the front of the cash wrap when Pedro the painter, wearing full respirator and suit, started filling the store with HVLP flammable paint. He didn’t pass out any respirators for me, the electricians, or his painters. Some just pulled their T-shirts up over their faces. Sorry, but that’s not how I roll. Apparently, that giant red flame painted on the side of his 5-gallon bucket doesn’t translate internationally. 

The store façade has been removed and there’s a temporary façade of steel studs and drywall with a lovely mural painted on the outside for the enjoyment of Waterside Shops mall patrons. There is no window for the health and safety of the workers inside, however, there is a sign on each of the double doors on the adjacent wall instructing that they must be kept shut at all times. Can’t have any dust on shoppers, now can we? I propped the doors open, **** the mall, and called Mr. Stapleton on the phone. He was already on site and we had the aforementioned conversation.

I called the Fire Marshall, Mall Security, Stapleton’s boss, and Saches Corporate Safety Director, Mike McMahon. He about flipped when I told him what transpired. He had worked with my wife when we lived in Michigan.

The Fire Marshall arrived just as I was loading the last of my tools. I showed him the pictures of Pedro the painter and his 5-gallon bucket with the flame painted on it. He said he could smell the fumes when he pulled up, but then he’s trained for that kind of thing. He tried the double doors, but they were locked. Apparently Mr. Stapleton shut ‘er down for the day.

I sent my invoice to the guys who hired me and gave them the nonnegotiable terms under which I would return to fill in the Grand Canyon I left in the front of the cash wrap. 1. Apology from Saches. 2. Pay my invoice. 2. Certified check in advance to return and no Jim Stapleton on site while I’m there. I’ll probably get it since they hired me, told me they’d gotten someone else, told me someone else wasn’t capable of doing the repairs, and hired me back.

At my rates, and I charge hourly, I can afford to pick up my work area and a few paint fumes aren’t going to kill me. What I will never tolerate, however, is being treated like an illegal alien in my own country. I will not tolerate the disrespect shown workers, which is what willful ignorance of worker safety and security is, as demonstrated by Waterside Shops and Saches Construction. This lack of social status, the implication that I’m worthless and exploitable, is why I hate commercial construction.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Holy sh!t you're a real pain in the ass.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Krok (Jul 9, 2016)

Yup, sounds like commercial. How many of your tools were stolen?

Sent by XM177 DoubleTap


----------



## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Geeze, man. You sure like putting people's names out there. To be honest, we don't need or want to know the names. At least I don't.

I get you are frustrated, but slow down a bit before putting it all out there.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Yeah this is really unnecessary and makes you look bad personally.

Yes if a jobsite is a mess that typically means the site super sucks.

Yes you shouldn't be spraying flammable products in an enclosed space.

But you're there to do a small job, step over the crap, walk to the hardware store and grab a respirator, walk back over the crap, do your job, get paid go home.

No need for all this other BS. As Jaws would say 'Cowboy Up'.


----------



## antonioooooooo (Mar 8, 2010)

Miss Finster, Miss Finster.


----------



## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

You called the fire marshall? Boundaries man, boundaries. That's like a dude kicking another dude in the nuts, you just don't do that.


----------



## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Jaws said:


> On a serious note, I'm surprised to hear people say commercial sucks. I have found most resi builders to be lacking in the organization, planning and running jobs dept compared to the commercial guys I worked for. Maybe some low rent guys here.


The commercial I did was just really fast paced and less concentrated on quality and more on speed. Can't say I ever "hated" it. Everything had to look up to snuff, but tolerances were just a bit bigger. The tension was always a little higher too, but it paid bills. I just like to be a little bit more lax than what commercial allows.

The thing I did like about commercial was when a good super was there, if he told you the job would be ready on "x" date, it damn sure would be.


----------



## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

Well...as my ol' man once told me...'IF YOU DIDNT WANT TO WORK!...YOU SHOULD'VE STAYED HOME WITH YOUR DAMN MAMA!" :laughing:


----------



## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

On a serious note....these store remodels that Kowboy was talking about are usually done with in a month...McDonald's ..Arby's..all of these fast food places are all remodeled with in a month, and a lot of them are still operating during the remodel....Thats why EVERYBODY is working on top of each other.

I little doubt Mr. Stapleton from Detroit, Michigan was going to shut the entire job down for the day, just so Kowboy could go in there and caulk the counter tops.

As a Sub...it's our responsibility to get along with the other subs, weather we all speak the same language or not.

And to call the fire marshall in because the painter was trying to finish while you were trying to do your job.....

There is so much more to be said...


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

brickhook said:


> On a serious note....these store remodels that Kowboy was talking about are usually done with in a month...McDonald's ..Arby's..all of these fast food places are all remodeled with in a month, and a lot of them are still operating during the remodel....Thats why EVERYBODY is working on top of each other.
> 
> I little doubt Mr. Stapleton from Detroit, Michigan was going to shut the entire job down for the day, just so Kowboy could go in there and caulk the counter tops.
> 
> ...


Food service and retail are the absolute worst. You are always ontop of each other. I try my best to avoid them for that reason. But if your average resi contractor was on one of those sites for the first time he'd probably lose his mind.


----------



## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> Food service and retail are the absolute worst. You are always ontop of each other. I try my best to avoid them for that reason. But if your average resi contractor was on one of those sites for the first time he'd probably lose his mind.


......or call the fire marshall and have the job shut down  :laughing:


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

brickhook said:


> ......or call the fire marshall and have the job shut down  :laughing:


Fvckin resi contractors.


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Deckhead said:


> You called the fire marshall? Boundaries man, boundaries. That's like a dude kicking another dude in the nuts, you just don't do that.


We've had a bunch of threads as of late with people being killed n the job because of bad job-site practices... wonder how many guys who know better walked on by afraid to kick the dude in charge in the nuts... 


... bet their family wished someone did ... nothing for the site super to worry about from the Fire Marshall if he's not doing anything dangerous to others... in fact, if it was bogus, it will go to his benefit...


----------



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

You guys have given me an epiphany and for that I'm so grateful.

I've done some additional research and as it turns out, they just put that flame picture on 5 gallon cans for amusement. It doesn't really mean anything.

Furthermore, it's completely safe to atomize the "flammable" (ha ha) paint with an HVLP sprayer inside an unventilated space. There's just no way possible for an electrician fiddling about to make a spark that would cause a store front in a busy mall to explode, killing innocent children. 

I feel like such an *******; I'm always overreacting. I hope you can forgive me.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

If it was that serious of a risk he should have pulled the fire alarm and evacuated the mall.


----------



## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

I think Kowboy you are way outside your comfort zone.

You obviously have never been on commercial remodels.


----------



## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

The General Contractor you mentioned went from a company doing a few million dollars a year to doing 130 million dollars worth of work a year in less than a decade. This story sounds like many others I've heard from my subs that have worked on their job sites. 

I see both sides of the fence though. As a superintendent the thing that bothers me the most is when a sub shows up their first day walks right up to me as I'm in the middle of dealing with the first twenty issues of the morning and then starts to tell me how it is. I appreciate subs who tell me when they will arrive on their first day so I can plan my morning to devote time to reviewing the work they are to do with them, and make sure that everything they need from me (i.e. access, clean up, electricity, water, etc.) is taken care of. 

I'm not taking that guys side (the best superintendents are not usually the ones on the road), but if I got a note like what you left I would laugh and throw it away. The line of you're the only one who can fix it translates to your the only one who can fix it whose phone number I have and i don't have to try and find someone else.


----------



## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

Deckhead said:


> The commercial I did was just really fast paced and less concentrated on quality and more on speed. Can't say I ever "hated" it. Everything had to look up to snuff, but tolerances were just a bit bigger. The tension was always a little higher too, but it paid bills. I just like to be a little bit more lax than what commercial allows.
> 
> The thing I did like about commercial was when a good super was there, if he told you the job would be ready on "x" date, it damn sure would be.


I used to love commercial.There used to be alot of money to be made in commercial masonry around here. Not so much anymore.

Now there isnt much money in it..the help is hard to find...and they keep your money tied up so long.

The risk certainly isnt worth what little bit reward there is.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Are posts disappearing?

I thought Jaws has post #2 and I could have sworn KAP posted right after Kowboy's last post.


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

FrankSmith said:


> He was never worried about the fumes. Read the full story.
> 
> He found grounds to throw a huge fit.


He started the post with it... five electricians and himself working in an area with no ventilation with a painter spraying flammable coatings... read the full story... it's starts, continues and ends with the safety aspect...



Kowboy said:


> “You can’t spray *flammable coatings* while remodeling a 3-room 2,000 square foot retail store, particularly *with no ventilation*” I explained to the site Superintendent.
> 
> “I’ve gotta get this painted” he replied.
> 
> “Fine”, I said, “I’m outta here. *Have fun with the Fire Marshall.* He’ll be here soon.”





Kowboy said:


> when* Pedro the painter, wearing full respirator and suit, started filling the store with HVLP flammable paint. *He didn’t pass out any respirators for me, the electricians, or his painters. Some just pulled their T-shirts up over their faces. Sorry, but that’s not how I roll. Apparently, *that giant red flame painted on the side of his 5-gallon bucket doesn’t translate internationally.*





Kowboy said:


> *There is no window for the health and safety of the workers inside, *however, there is a sign on each of the double doors on the adjacent wall instructing that they must be kept shut at all times.





Kowboy said:


> I called the Fire Marshall, Mall Security, Stapleton’s boss, and* Saches Corporate Safety Director, Mike McMahon. He about flipped when I told him what transpired.*





Kowboy said:


> The Fire Marshall arrived just as I was loading the last of my tools.* I showed him the pictures of Pedro the painter and his 5-gallon bucket with the flame painted on it*.





Kowboy said:


> ... which is what *willful ignorance of worker safety and security is,* as demonstrated by Waterside Shops and Saches Construction.


As is evident by the full story, his comment about a few paint fumes aren't going to kill him is hardly the context of the post as he mentions that aspect once and the safety aspect of the flammable coatings in an area without ventilation MULTIPLE times... the companies SAFETY director wouldn't have flipped because the painter didn't have masks for everyone and it certainly wouldn't be a reason he had the site supervisor shut the site down and it wasn't what Kowboy pointed out to the Fire Inspector...

As I said earlier, I could give a crap about the over-scheduling issue... We can have differing opinions on how he handled that but where he is on solid footing IMHO is the safety aspect... he pointed it out to the site supervisor, who was going ahead ANYWAY (i.e. - thereby IGNORING the safety aspect), so it's not like he didn't give the guy a heads up before moving ahead... he didn't just jump to the fire marshall, mall security and the companies safety director... it was AFTER the site supervisor was going to move ahead ANYWAY after having the safety issue brought to his attention...

I don't see how there can be much disagreement on the safety aspect which was the theme throughout the post...


----------



## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

KAP said:


> He started the post with it... five electricians and himself working in an area with no ventilation with a painter spraying flammable coatings... read the full story... it's starts, continues and ends with the safety aspect...
> 
> 
> As is evident by the full story, his comment about a few paint fumes aren't going to kill him is hardly the context of the post as he mentions that aspect once and the safety aspect of the flammable coatings in an area without ventilation MULTIPLE times... the companies SAFETY director wouldn't have flipped because the painter didn't have masks for everyone and it certainly wouldn't be a reason he had the site supervisor shut the site down and it wasn't what Kowboy pointed out to the Fire Inspector...
> ...


Because I read enough to know he was not scared for his safety. He didn't like how he was being treated. He knew he had grounds to throw a fit about *safety* because *he didn't like how he was being treated*.


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

FrankSmith said:


> Because I read enough to know he was not scared for his safety. He didn't like how he was being treated. He knew he had grounds to throw a fit about *safety* because *he didn't like how he was being treated*.


That doesn't translate from the quote about the fumes you attempted to paint him with... 

It's text on a screen... we all read with our own lenses... and none of us were there and are reading it third-party, but based on the fact that he discussed the safety issue first with the site supervisor, and was the theme throughout, who was going to go ahead DESPITE this, which THEN prompted Kowboy to go on to contact those involved, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt...

Add to it, if he wasn't justified in his actions, the companies own Safety director wouldn't have flipped out and apparently then had the site supervisor shut it down... he wouldn't have done that over some masks and like I said earlier, if the site supervisor was in the right, Kowboy would have been the one with egg on his face for wasting everyone's time and the site supervisor would have come out on top...

But as it stands, he was already working among the rubble and the issue came to a head when the painter started painting flammable coatings with five electricians and himself working so he contacted the site supervisor FIRST and then brought the issue to his attention... he not only had the conversation with the site supervisor, but he also opened the doors to vent the place BEFORE calling him or contacting anyone after his conversation because the site supervisor was ignoring the safety aspect... the conversation didn't go *"hey, there's too many people here, the place is a mess, etc."*.... no, the conversation was about the flammable paint paint. If it was as you say, he didn't need to do any of that if he was simply pissed about how he was being treated, or the mess, and could have just walked... he escalated it when the safety situation was being ignored after bringing it to the site supervisors attention... 

Insurance costs us that much more because people are OK looking the other way while people end up hurt or dead through bad business practices... how many examples would you like?


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

FrankSmith said:


> Because I read enough to know he was not scared for his safety. He didn't like how he was being treated. He knew he had grounds to throw a fit about *safety* because *he didn't like how he was being treated*.


Exactly, if people's lives were in fact in danger pull the fire alarm and evacuate the building.


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> Exactly, if people's lives were in fact in danger pull the fire alarm and evacuate the building.


Or he could exercise some common sense like he did when he vented the place FIRST (despite the sign saying door to remain closed) negating the issue BEFORE he brought it to the attention of the site supervisor... a little more responsible way of handling the situation than pulling a fire alarm and having the fire department respond to a situation at a mall when venting the place solves the issue...

He didn't, however, leave it in apparently inexperienced and/or incompetent hands and contacted the right people (including the Safety Director of the company the site supervisor was working for) who agreed with him when the site supervisor was going to move ahead anyway after having the safety issue brought to his attention...


----------



## Krok (Jul 9, 2016)

We can deal with mexicans that cannot communicate....people working above us with tools not tethered, no nets, ungrounded cords, trip hazards and fall hazards.....but the very real potential for an explosion should not be blown off....all the pun intended.

Ah yes, working commercial in an area in use...customers constantly trying to walk through your area, walking around the yellow tape and asking "Can I cut through?". 
I stood there holding a heavy bag of material as a guy in a suit walked by...after walking around the cones and tape as that was shorter. 
Or people in the trades upset that they have to walk around...
or set a nice granite counter so people can put their tools on it and/or stand on it....
or "can I use this for a moment?"
or "hey, I'm working on my house and...."

...and finally, you get to know which mexican gangs are represented at the job site by the porta potty graffiti. 

I prefer commercial as HOs suck.


----------



## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

Working commercial job sites often requires working with alot of trades at the same time. Often, the job site isn't as clean as I would like, but everyone is different.
As far as the safety aspect, I'm not afraid of controversy, so I would have hesitated to state my position. I would have made my feelings know. Although I've never called an inspector on anybody. I would have left, if it was that bad.

I wasn't there so I don't know the whole story. Apparently this incident upset him quite a bit. Not only did he leave. He took additional steps. Then he posted everything online, including names.

Hopefully venting helped. 

Probably not the way I would have handled it, but I wasn't there.


----------



## Jay hole (Nov 12, 2013)

I think everyone would be a tattle-tit at some point.....kowboy seems to have a lower tolerance than most.


----------



## Joe Pro (Aug 14, 2016)

This could have been solved very easily.

Call Trump, he promised to make america great again!


----------



## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

KAP said:


> That doesn't translate from the quote about the fumes you attempted to paint him with...
> 
> It's text on a screen... we all read with our own lenses... and none of us were there and are reading it third-party, but based on the fact that he discussed the safety issue first with the site supervisor, and was the theme throughout, who was going to go ahead DESPITE this, which THEN prompted Kowboy to go on to contact those involved, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt...
> 
> ...


I guess he lost me when he started ranting about being treated like an illegal alien in is own country. 

That has nothing to do with fumes.


----------



## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

"I called the Fire Marshall, Mall Security, Stapleton’s boss, and Saches Corporate Safety Director, Mike McMahon. He about flipped when I told him what transpired. He had worked with my wife when we lived in Michigan."

If you could not find resolution with the site super (who may be fairly low on the totem pole depending on the company), it would be entirely appropriate to contact the Corporate Safety Director. Everything else was not an appropriate level of response.

There are tons of variables that you just don't know. 
1. There are many levels of flammability. (most spray paint has a flammable label)
2. Total volume of space versus total volume of spray can be considered ventilation.
3. Depending on the product only open flames may be restricted (no cordless tools are not considered an open flame, this is laughable)

The portion of your reasoning that I take the largest exception to is that you did not have a respirator. Are you telling me, that as a counter top technician, you use not products that give off a fume? If you do, then you should have a respirator in your kit as part of your safety plan. The electricians response to this is none of your business.

In short, start acting like a professional if you want to continue doing commercial work. You won't be working for this GC again after this job, if at all.


----------



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Larger commercial projects we have to submit the MSDS for all products and chemicals we use on site to prevent things like this from transpiring.


----------



## Krok (Jul 9, 2016)

Inner10 said:


> Larger commercial projects we have to submit the MSDS for all products and chemicals we use on site to prevent things like this from transpiring.


Same on the ones I've been on and they are in one of the trailers the GC has...but it doesn't really matter as the mexicans can't read them in english and most can't read them in spanish...but no es importante because no one cares anyway--they're there to do a job and if they don't do it someone will take their place.

If you've ever been to any jobsites or factories in mexico you'll recognize the same third world thought--t shirts or bandanas around their face are good enough for anything bad they could breathe. Just because they cross an imaginary non existent line in the sand doesn't mean thought/work process/culture automatically changes.

The inability to communicate with fellow workers is the greatest hazard on commercial jobsites and having two of every meeting, one in spanish and one in english doesn't 'translate' into being safer on the job site if you can't tell/ask someone standing in front of you something. But as it's all about making more money, none of that matters.


----------



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Here's the flame Pedro couldn't understand and the space between the cash wrap and back wrap. You can just step around those tools and wires. Greenfield isn't all that slippery.


----------



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

I appreciate all the replies, especially the video substantiation of my argument, however, the larger point of this post seems to be missed.

We continually hear about the lack of people being drawn into the trades. Some blame low wages, some a lack of work ethic among the young. Illegal immigration does not only suppress wages, it suppresses working conditions as well. 

It disgusts me that Superintendents have an attitude of "Well, it doesn't bother the Mexicans, so what's your problem?" and it is even more disheartening to hear that anti-worker attitude defended here.

If you believe this situation was not imminently dangerous, you are mistaken or delusional. If you believe that legitimate complainers are whiners, you are part of our industry's recruitment problem.

Young people aren't stupid. They don't expect to be blown up at work either by a terrorist or an incompetent Superintendent.

Trump can't get that wall built fast enough for me.


----------



## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

Come on... You start by complaining about the job site, and the super making you feel like an illegal. To..... you was scared you was getting blown up....now.... kids arent getting into the trades because illegals are keeping the wages down and they dont want to get blown up by "terrorist"  :laughing:

I have NEVER had a problem on my job site in my career that wasnt talked/worked out professionally.

You're constantly referring to the painters as "Pedro" and the Hispanics as "illegals". You dont know if they're documented or not. You're coming across as an angry person.

I think this whole situation couldve been handled differently.


----------



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

brickhook said:


> You're constantly referring to the painters as "Pedro" and the Hispanics as "illegals". You dont know if they're documented or not. You're coming across as an angry person.
> 
> I think this whole situation couldve been handled differently.


I did not use the term "Pedro" disparagingly, making up names is just a writing tool. Like a hammer gets a point across to a nail.

You are correct; I do not know if they are illegals or not, but I don't think it matters much. These hispanics are exploitable; I'm not. I can call the Fire Marshall and not worry about him calling the INS on me.

Yes, when I'm prevented from safely earning my living through no fault of my own and from the incompetence of others, it makes me unapologetically angry. We agree again.

It could have been handled differently. The incompetent Super could have had a budget and crew for clean-up. He could have brought pressure on subs to clean up after themselves through back-charging. He could have scheduled the painting for after hours and provided proper ventilation. No difference in our opinions here either.


----------



## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

If I were an Insurance company....I would be having an aneurysm about now and you would all receive a rate increase especially if you hire Pedro.


----------



## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

This is a job that I rolled up on a couple of years ago.

It was the worst one that I've ever been on. I had a couple of options....I couldve busted through the front door with both guns a blazing...called everyone out....showed my azz...called OSHA and the local inspectors in, or called the HO who lives 10hrs away in FL and refuse to do the job.

The Superintendent was one of the best men I've ever worked for, but he had lost control of this job and was way overwhelmed.

If I chose to leave, it wouldve just delayed the project another month.

I took my 2 guys and we cleaned the job up and 3 or 4 hours later we were laying stone.

I took these photos to document the job with the intentions of back charging (which I didnt)

....and before anybody says anything about Pedro making this mess...the only 2 Pedros on this job were helping me clean up.

A person doesn't have to rock EVERY boat he rides on...


----------



## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

You're a good man brother! I would have just sent the pics to the super and said, "I ain't working in this. No harm no foul, I will be charging for today's lost day though. Call me when it's all good and ready and I'll be back."

Only one real way to handle things when you get pissed, if it's you're fault take a breather and get your head back on straight. If it's someone else, remove yourself from the situation before it degrades, charge accordingly so they know this isn't an "okay" thing to do.

What you did is above and beyond and probably earned some serious loyalty. "Just keep working, however you have to do it, just keep working, idle is backwards so it's forward or backwards - it is always up to you" (those are my old man's words).


----------



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

FrankSmith said:


> Then why spend so much time on race/ethnicity? Having the hots for some hispanic girls you went to school with does not make the enfaces on this any clearer.


Frank Smith:

I've spent exactly as much time on race/ethnicity as I've needed to make my points. You don't have the hots for races/ethnicities you hate. I hate none and have made that clear. 

Unfortunately you're joining those distractors who would attack my writing style and choices instead of addressing the real issue here, the exploitation of working people and the effect that has on our industry's ability to attract the talent we're going to need in the future.


----------



## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Kowboy said:


> Frank Smith:
> 
> I've spent exactly as much time on race/ethnicity as I've needed to make my points. You don't have the hots for races/ethnicities you hate. I hate none and have made that clear.
> 
> Unfortunately you're joining those distractors who would attack my writing style and choices instead of addressing the real issue here, the exploitation of working people and the effect that has on our industry's ability to attract the talent we're going to need in the future.


I never suggested you hated anyone. I am not even sure where that is coming from. I have no idea if you are a racist but getting your slave pregnant doesn't prove anything. 

Dont kid yourself into thinking your approach is pro working people while those who object are anti working people. Working people do everything they can before throwing a wrench in the gears causing everyone to have to evacuate the work place mid day. There are a lot of guys who comment in these threads who could have worked out a resolution in real time in way that would build relationships rather then destroy them.


----------



## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

72chevy4x4 said:


> I thought pulling the fire alarm was a joke, but after the second time guess it was serious. Even if a worker passed out and began frothing at the mouth, don't think I would pull a fire alarm that sounds through the entire mall.
> 
> I served aboard a sub in the Navy and air quality is a serious matter (as is most everything). Not sure I would have had the nerve to make the call Kowboy did, but understand it.
> 
> ...




Yea pulling the fire alarm at a mall would automatically cause a huge response from the fire dept. usually minimum 4 engines, 3 trucks at least 2 ambulances and a battalion chief from different fire stations all coming blazing lights and sirens with the potential of causing an accident enroute to a false alarm. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Krok (Jul 9, 2016)

FrankSmith said:


> but getting your slave pregnant doesn't prove anything.


that's a very silly thing to say.



> Working people do everything they can before...


Speaking for myself, in commercial I got very tired of the endless stream of mexicans that didn't respect other people's work/work area/equipment/supplies. And then them playing dumb by not being able to speak english annoys a lot of people, but I didn't mind as I could speak spanish (mexican).
Working on jobs that crew after crew of them come through, job after job can get tiring, so I can understand some people just taking a shortcut and forcing the GC to act, well, like a responsible GC rather than just juggle different crews as best they can so they can keep on schedule and dump the costs/problems upon the subs.

If GCs were responsible and their safety kids did more than just walk around for hard hat/safety glass checks, or their crews did their jobs better (staging/moving/waste/utils), this subject wouldn't be here.

Like I said, on numerous occasions I've kicked trim carpenters' bags down stairs or across rooms and have done other things to other trades that didn't care about others around them. Talking to the GC about it usually does nothing but make them think you're a whiner, thus ignore you and/or move you down the list when you need something from them to do your job. One thing I've always done though is get results.


----------



## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Krok said:


> that's a very silly thing to say.


Thats good because it was in response to a guy who was ranting about "Pedro" and then said he wasn't racist because he still had the hots for girls from high school. 

Would it have been better if I asked if the slave owners who slept with there slaves where racist? On that subject, where they?


----------



## Krok (Jul 9, 2016)

FrankSmith said:


> Thats good because it was in response to a guy who was ranting about "Pedro" and then said he wasn't racist because he still had the hots for girls from high school.


Mexicans aren't a race. What we used to get a kick out of is when a mexican would somehow get deported, in two weeks he'd be back working on the same job...yet his name wasn't pedro anymore, it was something else. We used to have a lot of fun with names and it worked both ways.

There's a big joke that's been going on and I think it's mainly on us.
And the punchline is the powers that be are getting us to chase each other's tails around, arguing about nonsensical things while they keep stuffing their bank accounts, getting their programs, their votes, etc.


----------



## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Krok said:


> Mexicans aren't a race. What we used to get a kick out of is when a mexican would somehow get deported, in two weeks he'd be back working on the same job...yet his name wasn't pedro anymore, it was something else. We used to have a lot of fun with names and it worked both ways.
> 
> There's a big joke that's been going on and I think it's mainly on us.
> And the punchline is the powers that be are getting us to chase each other's tails around, arguing about nonsensical things while they keep stuffing their bank accounts, getting their programs, their votes, etc.


I don't know why you just said any of that.


----------



## Krok (Jul 9, 2016)

FrankSmith said:


> I don't know why you just said any of that.


Don't know why you go around trying to police others, so I guess we're even.


----------



## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Krok said:


> Don't know why you go around trying to police others, so I guess we're even.


Ironic in a thread started from a guying policing the job sight and you supporting the effort. In the mean time I have only objected to the policing. You call my objection to the policing policing.


----------



## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

Krok said:


> There's a big joke that's been going on and I think it's mainly on us.
> And the punchline is the powers that be are getting us to chase each other's tails around, arguing about nonsensical things while they keep stuffing their bank accounts, getting their programs, their votes, etc.


Yup the Joke is the tactics used by progressives, liberals, uber intellectuals and so on. All the terms coopted by the marxisits-communists-socialists. Code word for it is community organizing.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Okay, this thread has officially gone down the tubes. Closed.

Let's try for a new year of brightness and butterflies, foks.


----------

