# Benefits of Torch Down Roofing over other products...



## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

BTW, small copper bay windows here run about $2,500 installed. I think the labor is a lot more in the Twin Cities than in Kentucky.

And what would they cost if done with kynar steel? Probably not a $100 difference in the material cost between the steel and the copper and the labor is actually harder with the steel and the waste material has little or no value. I've seen roofers/etc try to inflate a product's value for some reason or another. Gravy train profit or maybe fear of something they're not that familiar with. I try to sell what I think is the best overall value for the customer and on things like flashing, I quit giving any options a long time ago. You want me to flash your chimney? You get copper. I'll do it with other materials if you insist, but the price is the same. I got tired of moving odd sheets and rolls of different colored/type metal around and trying to find someplace to use them. I explained that to someone today. They called to get an aluminum flashing job. They bought copper. When I do a copper roof, the off falls, mistakes, and general leftovers go to flash the chimneys on the shingle roof we're doing. 

I typically buy 50,000 - 60,000 lbs of copper yearly. Last year, less than 500 lbs of that went to the scrap yard. I see lots of usable copper sheet at the scrap yard. I guess some think it's better to sell their cut offs for 40 cents on the dollar rather than cutting steps and flags out of them and selling the same copper at a profit. 

I know it's your trade in all and I'm very happy your making such a go at it in your area of Kentucky? Never knew that was an area with a huge demand for copper. Must be a lot of millionairs in your work area?

There's hardly a chimney here that gets flashed with anything besides copper. Want a membrane roof? It's likely there'll be copper roof edge on it. 70 miles away in Louisville, they speak of copper like you do.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

CU, your site is nice.

Thanks - it's a work in progress.

Out of curiosity what does an average sized copper hood vent go for? 

I've only done 7-8 of them and they were all completely different and custom. The one that scrolls on my homepage was about $800, IIRC. We had to do it in place rather than in the shop which made the price go up. I had to go to the site and measure the carcass they'd built and I spent maybe 2 hours tops bending it. Two of my installers spent a morning installing it. Probably a little over $100 worth of copper in it. 

Well, we've hijacked this thread to a completely different road. 

To get back on track, a few weeks ago I was doing some copper work in Manhattan. I could see probably 50 roofs from where I was working and almost all of them were modified bitumen. I guessed that access was the reason. Crane access was problematic at best and most roofs had a single door stair bulkhead for roof access. A roofer could pack modified materials up the stairs, but not membrane rolls - too large. My best guess why there was no EPDM or TPO.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Ok, but what are the benefits of torch down over other systems?

Faster to install?
Cheaper? 
Last longer? 

If it requires maintenance, doesn't that add to the cost over years, thus not making it a cost effective roof?

What does that come out to per foot? 
Has anybody ever worked out the numbers? 
A 30 year torch down roof having to be re-coated every few years at X=$ every time? 

Why is it "better" than other systems?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

seeyou said:


> CU, your site is nice.
> 
> Thanks - it's a work in progress.
> 
> ...


Unbelievable. 
I was doing one today in Manhattan. 
Walked off the job because of what they were doing to the customer's roof.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

2ndGen said:


> Ok, but what are the benefits of torch down over other systems?
> 
> Faster to install?
> Cheaper?
> ...


Not all modified bitumen roofs need to be coated as often as some think. Granule surfaced modified bitumen can go decades before needing a coating.

I like the heat welded aspects of modified torch products. I like that that membrane is hot welded to the substrate. I like that I dont need different adhesives, flashing materials, uses for different details. I like that I dont need sealants behind the edges of the sheet aside from a weld. I like that I am so proficient with a torch. I like that I can install modified on cold days. I like playing with fire. I like that it is so versatile. I like that I don't need another product to seal the edges until the glues set up (i know... seam tapes, but some details need lap sealant). I like the long term proven performance of modified. I like that it is able to be installed large scale by one or two guys. I like that when it is hot outside it goes down faster.

I still like foam and seamless roofing membranes the best though.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

2ndGen said:


> Unbelievable.
> I was doing one today in Manhattan.
> Walked off the job because of what they were doing to the customer's roof.


Explain?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

AaronB. said:


> Not all modified bitumen roofs need to be coated as often as some think.


I'm sure that one also has to take weathering and regional conditions into account when trying to figure out how often a smooth surface APP roof has to be coated. 

But, is there an average? 

Every 2 years? 

Every 4 years? 

And generally, what does it cost per sq ft (to the customer) to re-coat their roof over the lifetime of said roof?


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

seeyou said:


> Explain?


Torched over existing APP roof without prepping the surface correctly. 

Tied APP roof to Ice & Water Shield. 

Didn't nail down base sheet (it was literally floating) at where a bulkhead intersected with roof. 
They laid new material right over that floating base. 

It was just a recipe for disaster and when I'd bring it up to the head mechanic 
(Mr. I've been roofing for 10 years, I know what I'm doing), 
he totally blew me off and went about "his" way of doing things.

One guy literally was torching "on" exposed plywood! 

Another time, the idiot put the torch face up on the membrane (which of course is acceptable), 
BUT THE FLAME WAS LITERALLY BURNING THE ELBOW JOINT OF A GAS LINE!


As I brought down the 40' ladder that was used to bring up the rolls, I noticed that it wasn't even engaged. 
It was literally floating. The only thing holding it to the rail it was against was the rope that was tied to the rail.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

seeyou said:


> I didn't know any either. So I made it my business to meet some.:whistling


:laughing:

That reminds me of...

“Mr Dillinger, why do you rob banks?” 

“Because that is where the money is.” 

:laughing:


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

2ndGen said:


> I'm sure that one also has to take weathering and regional conditions into account when trying to figure out how often a smooth surface APP roof has to be coated.
> 
> But, is there an average?
> 
> ...


This depends on the quality of the coating, and how much is allowed to be applied.

If you go with 1 3 gallon per square of elastomeric acrylic white roof coating 20 years after installation, you should be able to go another 15-20 years without having to recoat for about a buck a foot. Compared to replacing a roof, this makes the coating pay for itself, instead of costing you money.

After all, the only thing that destroys the membrane itself is UV light. Eliminate this and who knows how long the roof will last? Decades, for sure.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

AaronB. said:


> This depends on the quality of the coating, and how much is allowed to be applied.
> 
> If you go with 1 3 gallon per square of elastomeric acrylic white roof coating 20 years after installation, you should be able to go another 15-20 years without having to recoat for about a buck a foot. Compared to replacing a roof, this makes the coating pay for itself, instead of costing you money.


So that'd be $6000. for the original roof + $2000. for the 1 time maintenance for a total of $8000. on an up to 40 year roof? 
That (I'd think) would be the best deal in that particular example.

Around hear, I haven't seen coatings last for more than a couple of years without needing to be re-applied. 



> After all, the only thing that destroys the membrane itself is UV light.
> Eliminate this and who knows how long the roof will last? Decades, for sure.


That is exactly what I tell my customers almost word for word.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

AaronB. said:


> This depends on the quality of the coating, and how much is allowed to be applied.
> 
> If you go with 1 3 gallon per square of elastomeric acrylic white roof coating 20 years after installation, you should be able to go another 15-20 years without having to recoat for about a buck a foot. Compared to replacing a roof, this makes the coating pay for itself, instead of costing you money.
> 
> After all, the only thing that destroys the membrane itself is UV light. Eliminate this and who knows how long the roof will last? Decades, for sure.


A BUCK A FOOT? 3 gallons per square of acrylic at a buck a foot? Surely you speak of materials only, yes? If not you might consider doubling or tripling that number. I'm getting .75 a foot for non-fibered aluminum silver coat at less than a gallon per square.


Aaron did hit the nail on the head about Modified bitumen, the materials list is defeintly a shorter list. Much simpler to work with when compared to single plys when you think about it. I had the exact same feelings as Aaron when bidding my first few jobs. However after doing a couple single ply jobs the materials list and necessary steps become redundant and the indimidation factor goes right out the window.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

If we are simply doing a UV reflector, with no waterproofing, I can do it for that. A full restoration is easily triple that, like Grumpy says. Sometimes more.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Phew! I was scared for a moment that you knew something that I did not


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Am I confused or are guys talking about coating grunual torch down? Never done that and this is the first I've heard of it.

Again we don't do many flat roofs... If there big we turn them down or recomend my Uncle who does a bit of it. If there small sections then we do them.

Back to copper. Got a bid to do right now for a small dormer on a roof with copper standing seam. Never done it though...


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

dougger222 said:


> Back to copper. Got a bid to do right now for a small dormer on a roof with copper standing seam. Never done it though...


Pick my brain. I've done a couple.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Ok,

It's a small 4/12 shed roof being built atop a 10/12 towards the top. The print shows there to be a few feet of roof above the copper dormer. We are planning to bid to tear off all the shingles on the front to match the best were they are also building two large 10/12 dormers.

I'm guessing since in most cases you have the standing seam panels custom made I need to know the measurement from eave to point of intersection with roof above? At the point of roof pitch changes do you have the copper bent and extend a certain amount of distance up the 10/12 section? In most cases considering there's at least 5 feet of shingles above the copper roof how high up do you start your shingles to run across the copper? Other than the standing seam itself what other componants are needed?

I have the prints in my email and it looks like the shed dormer is 22"4 a 6 inch overhang on the rakes. What the print does not show is the rafter run.

$800 for the copper hood vent seems a lot cheaper than I was thinking. When I dropped off the extra copper valley at the place that does the custom bending localy asked one of the workers about them and although he didn't give me a price said they were not cheap. Something about being stainless steel on the inside which also drives the price up. Perhaps I need to do more research and find other places that custom bend copper?


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

It's a small 4/12 shed roof being built atop a 10/12 towards the top. The print shows there to be a few feet of roof above the copper dormer. We are planning to bid to tear off all the shingles on the front to match the best were they are also building two large 10/12 dormers.

I'm guessing since in most cases *you have the standing seam panels custom made I need to know the measurement from eave to point of intersection with roof above? 

*Yes.

*At the point of roof pitch changes do you have the copper bent and extend a certain amount of distance up the 10/12 section? *

You can field bend the panels through the pitch change. You just need straight panels made.

*In most cases considering there's at least 5 feet of shingles above the copper roof how high up do you start your shingles to run across the copper?


*I'd typically run the copper at least 8" above the pitch change. Then I'd install the shingles so the nails hit just above the top of the copper. So the actual copper height would be determined by the existing shingle coursing. 

*Other than the standing seam itself what other componants are needed?*

Drip edge at the perimeter, clips and nails.

I have the prints in my email and it looks like the shed dormer is 22"4 a 6 inch overhang on the rakes. What the print does not show is the rafter run.

$800 for the copper hood vent seems a lot cheaper than I was thinking. When I dropped off the extra copper valley at the place that does the custom bending localy asked one of the workers about them and although he didn't give me a price said they were not cheap. Something about being stainless steel on the inside which also drives the price up. Perhaps I need to do more research and find other places that custom bend copper?

That price is for the copper wrap only. We're either provided with a form or build one or modify an existing SS unit. I don't think we've done the same thing twice.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

At the point of roof pitch changes do you have the copper bent and extend a certain amount of distance up the 10/12 section? 

"You can field bend the panels through the pitch change. You just need straight panels made." Quote from seeyou

So does this mean it can't be standing seam since it's got to bend up onto the other roof? Can you have it made to be standing seam then flat seam at the transition?

I think we can tackle this small copper detail but just want to know exactly what needs to be done before I commit to it.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

So does this mean it can't be standing seam since it's got to bend up onto the other roof? Can you have it made to be standing seam then flat seam at the transition?

Standing seam will bend right through the transition. PM me and I'll tell you how to do it.


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