# What's wrong with Painting Contractors?



## JoshuaPaul (Mar 17, 2010)

I am a painting contractor in the Pacific Northwest. We are trying to increase the standards of professionalism throughout the painting industry. So what are the biggest pain points and what were the most impressive aspects of a painting company?

I have surveyed a few contrators and these were some of their responses:
1.) NO BABYSITTING! Contractors don't like to have to push their subs to get the job done right and on schedule. Obviously they shouldn't have to call a contractor and ask him where his guys are or why they're standing around.
2.)Get it done w/out complaints! Contractors hate change orders (especially oversights from the original bid). Also, contractors just want the job done -- paint on walls -- with as little headache as possible.
3.) Value -- Not just the lowest price, but the lowest price for the painter with the least amount of headaches.

I would love to hear about new innovations to professionalism in the industry. What are the biggest problems GC's have with painters, and secondly, how do I educate GC's about our solutions to those problems?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

No problems with my current painters, but past ones had a tough time showing up on time, and/or doing enough prep.

I consider the painters my last line of defense on every remodel job and respect good firms immensly. I am also willing to pay for it.

Since we remodelers usually rely on the painters to fix our always present nicks and scratches, (like the ones created when installing granite for example) I personally love when the painters just take care of those things. (within reason of course).


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

JoshuaPaul,

I've got a question for you from a GC standpoint.

It seems that most remodels I do, the HO "has their own painter" who they would like to handle that part of the job. Especially on small bathrooms or the like. It usually turns out that its their friends, brothers, son-in-laws, next door neighbor (or something like that) who is new to the business and the HO would like to give them the work.

It's these types that are the first to complain about how "the drywallers should have done this or that", or "I'm going to backcharge the GC for that 3" scratch" etc.

How do we sell our good painters to the HO's? Price is rarely the object since I don't break down my quotes. (Even though these guys are usually cheap, uninsured, etc.)

Any hints for us on this front?


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

We do medium to high end renos. My painter is exceptional. Always protects everything. Preps everything, I mean even power sand the walls.

All tiny deficiencies are fixed as a matter of course. Knows his products eg. Aura paint.

Has the skill base to cut in flawlessly without touching the trim. Never cuts corners to speed up the job.

So these are some of the reasons I use him, don't shop his price, and he is always super busy.

To RS - I won't let the HO ruin my job by letting his friends paint it. If my guy can't come for a small bathroom, I'll do it myself. I'm as good as my guy, but slower. :laughing:

As a general complaint of previous painters - they don't present themselves in a professional maner, both in attitude and knowledge and skill. 

Like I said, I've done small paint jobs when I have to for 30 plus years, and I still would not say I am a painter. My guy is.


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## Shaggy Dog (Mar 3, 2010)

JoshuaPaul said:


> I am a painting contractor in the Pacific Northwest. We are trying to increase the standards of professionalism throughout the painting industry. So what are the biggest pain points and what were the most impressive aspects of a painting company?
> 
> I have surveyed a few contrators and these were some of their responses:
> 1.) NO BABYSITTING! Contractors don't like to have to push their subs to get the job done right and on schedule. Obviously they shouldn't have to call a contractor and ask him where his guys are or why they're standing around.
> ...


 






Commercial Painting contractor here!!!!

Est 1971....Union Contractor since 1979....2nd generation owner

Been doing work for the same GC since 1982....How have we made it this far for so long?????? By following the 3 steps that Joshua Paul listed....well done!!!

It's that simple! BUT You got to have the right guys Union or Non-Union


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## CanCritter (Feb 9, 2010)

up here it seems to be all the new canadians who are all of a sudden painters...do alota new homes up here and alota these fools are running around spraying ect in the houses without proper resperators and sometimes the smell comeing out the front door is so bad l move to another area to work...how they do it l have no clue


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## JoshuaPaul (Mar 17, 2010)

> It seems that most remodels I do, the HO "has their own painter" who they would like to handle that part of the job. Especially on small bathrooms or the like. It usually turns out that its their friends, brothers, son-in-laws, next door neighbor (or something like that) who is new to the business and the HO would like to give them the work.
> 
> It's these types that are the first to complain about how "the drywallers should have done this or that", or "I'm going to backcharge the GC for that 3" scratch" etc.
> 
> ...


We try to "own" the work once we start on a job. So we try to inspect the work before we start, this way if there's a problem with the drywall we usually have to find a way to fix it. It's easier to complain about the previous work than to find a way to fix it. It's easiest for us to visit the jobsite as the drywallers are finishing the work to see if there's anything we can spot before we start.

If the GC could require an inspection or sign/off, that would help you to keep the HO's painter complaints to a minimum. If I'm doing a job for an elderly person and I know that their son or daughter will do the inspection after I'm long gone and critic everything, I'll invite them along to the final inspection or half way through.

If you have a written process of stud to drywall to tape & putty to painter that you can show the HO, you could make the case that your painters will know this system for proven results. Whereas the HO's painters will not know the system. This would be most effective if you could show the basics of YOUR checklist & process with some pictures. Then you could follow up with an explanation of poor roller lines, cut lines, drips, overspray, or whatever. This way if the HO chooses to go with their painter, they have no outs when they want to complain about the final product. You had your process and it went well,....until they brought their painter in!

You could also mention that your painter will be accountable for any mistakes, but the HO's painter will be on his/her own if they do it. Maybe you could tie your warrantee or quality checklist into your painter somehow? Or maybe you could force their painter to follow your process, so that you both can ensure a high quality job?

I'm convinced that a process and a purpose for each painter will win over highering the best or most experienced painters. I would rather higher a new guy who is willing to learn my process, than an experienced painter who might think he's got his own, best way, to do things.

What do you guys think?


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## BC_Painter (Mar 18, 2010)

I'd just let the customer know pretty well what's being shared here.

During the construction process there are ALWAYS little things like nicks and bangs that create extra prep work for the painters. OUR painters know exactly what to expect, fix, and there is zero hassle. When you bring in your own, things can get missed much easier, causing them to blame the drywallers or trim guys, causing them headaches, as well as their own headaches having to redo work, it'll take 3 times as long possibly.

It might now ALWAYS be the case, but it is more often that not, so why not just let us do our job, bring in our guys, and save the headaches for everyone:thumbup:


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

I don't work with any GC's most of my work comes from the HomeOwners, so I guess I could be one of those painters who comes in for the HO's. I did get some work from one GC who had done work for the same custmer, well they wanted me to do all the staining and painting cause his guy was a carpenter,drywaller,painter:whistling and I do plaster and painting, I can do all the other trades but plaster and painting are what I like to do cause I'm fast and know my costs so I can make money, when I have work for GC's and Builders They all piss and moan I charge to much and I don't work long enough hours, they feel I should give 8 hours or more, when I always make my dead lines depending on the work I'm doing. Most of the time the HO's add things.
So as for your painters go I would say as long as you let the HO's the option to hire their painters this will happen, I would just tell them that you paint all your jobs, I have done plaster repairs and figured in painting and then have the HO's tell me that they will do finish paintng or their Dad or other Family member will do it, I have no problem with it, yeah it would be nice to make the extra money but what can you do!
and as far as nic's and that I tell HO's that is the Painters job, which includes
things like spackling, caulking, puttying those all fall on the painters. If their painters don't know how to prep oh well! not my problem.:whistling


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## Paulf (Jun 10, 2006)

Why should the Painter fix other trades sloppy work.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Knowing where to put the most care is a problem I have seen with painters. If you have window casing right at the entrance to the house, under some sharp lighting, then every mark or smudge is going to be noticeable. You need to think about the lighting and where the focal points are, a lot of painters don't think about that.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

"PAULF"--Why should the painter fix other trades sloppy work?"

Sorry Paulf--that is EXACTLY what a remodeler needs and expects from his painter-------

We are taking a "USED" house and adding improvements--trying to make the abuse and neglect of the years--and the mistakes of previous workmen--and turn this pig into a show horse.

My painter is a true craftsman himself---knowing that his job is to "Fix the other trades sloppy work"
He assesses the work needed with a keen eye--estimates the time properly--and does the prep properly to "Fix the other trades sloppy work"

I don't know you, so this is aimed to help,not insult------


Often a tradesman only hears what a client says he wants---and does not figure out what the guy REALLY wants.

I have two painters--Both skilled pros--One gets 90% of my work--Here is why---

I want a job that will please the customer---NO apologizing--No call backs--No complaints

The one thinks that I want cheap and fast--the other understands that I require TOP NOTCH--

Both have similar pricing based on the time they spend on the job---

Who gets the work--Which one taught me that extra time was required on a remodel paint job?
Which one always has the lower bid--Yet only gets the smaller slice of the pie?

It's a valuable sales skill --Learning to understand what a customer really wants-not what they SAY that they want.

Best luck to you all in selling--and dealing with contractors. This year is looking brighter than last---
I think that the remodeling end of things will be picking up--You figure out what we need and you will fit right in--MIKE--


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## DeanV (Feb 20, 2006)

It seems to me that the damage on remodels is often excessive. I have run into very poor drywall work on some remodel work. Areas not sanded, not enough mud, not blending repair areas, etc. These mistakes add up to another trip for us to the job. Which cost us money.

Add into the process that I cannot get some people to understand that we want, no need, to be the last trade in. After solid surface flooring, after granite, etc. Otherwise, it is another trip to fix damages from those trades.

GC's can make it a whole lot easier to get a quality job at a reasonable cost if they would listen to us, but they usually do not care to listen.


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

Any Quality painter will take into consideration other trades are going to do their work and they aint worrying about the painted surfaces. So if your painter isn't going to fix these type of things that happen on all jobs new and remodel, the Painters work is the Product Everyone sees, and if He/She didn't detail the job, well it shows. and like I say, that is when you have handed the HomeOwner the Magnifying Glass:whistling
If you look at every job that your name is on it, and if it doesn't stand up to your own eye, then maybe you need to sharpen your skills. theres always room for improvements:thumbsup: 
But the thing I find is communication breaks down, and then the problems can start. but if you have good communications there shouldn't be any problems. as long as your Painter knows every job should be Golden:thumbsup:


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Not all contractors are the same, some say 'leave it for the painter', so I see where Paulf is coming from.

I try to leave all work 'ready for paint'. That means all surfaces have been sanded, all gaps filled, etc.

The primary work of a painter is to paint, not fix things the other trades failed to do.

Example - trim work - all trim is sanded before installation. Nails are set NOT filled, as the wood should be primed before filling. But any gaps, let's say at the crown/ceiling should be caulked with quality material.

I don't pay my painter to do the carpenters job, and visa/versa.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

I don't expect a painter to work for free fixing stuff that wasn't his fault. But I expect him to let me know when something isn't right and tell me how much he would charge to correct it. Or he can take care of it without kicking up a fuss, but I don't want him to just cover something up and leave behind crappy work. I wouldn't use him again, probably neither would anyone I know. 

I expect the same thing from drywall finishers, if I make some sort of mistake then deal with it.


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## Dorman Painting (May 2, 2006)

Painters face an uphill battle in the new construction industry. Before a painter even walks onto a job, he's already got a bad name from generations before. Then once the painter gets on the job, he's generally heckled by the builder to lower his price etc. What happens is a snowball effect, the builder nickels and dimes the painter and eventually a painter will do sloppy work because he realizes he's not making much money. 

Another problem in new construction is the idea that a painter will paint the garage for a discount. Most builders in my area expect the garage to be painted at 50% off, I'm not joking either. On top of that, painters must then spend a full day doing touch ups. Touch ups that most likely got there by the plumbers, electricians and flooring people. 

People should really kiss painters ass when you put it into perspective. I always tell builders it's the paint job that normally sells the house, not the eletrically wiring hidden in the walls, not the concrete, not the draywall or the framing. The painter should probably be held in extremely high esteem in the construction field.


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## ltd (Nov 26, 2010)

*yes ser re jim bob*

i mean its a give and take thing . when i come in to paint a new addition its got to be reddy . life happens some times nicks scuffs i get that but i cant be re skimming walls when i priced the job out for a day. oh yea i would rather do caulking and nail filling my self . ps imho


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## randrohe (Jan 6, 2009)

What makes a good carpenter? A better painter....


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

The area I typically see that can always use improvement in the all trades is the people skills and social habits.

I've had customers pull me aside and express their concern about the shady looking characters working in their home.

Dress right. look sharp
Communicate
Low impact with radios, loud talk & jokes

Respect the work site and the Homeowner
It's imperative that they are at ease with the strangers invading it.


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

randrohe said:


> What makes a good carpenter? A better painter....


*Caulkin' and paint, makes 'em the carpenters they ain't.......*:jester:


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

tcleve4911 said:


> I've had customers pull me aside and express their concern about the shady looking characters working in their home.
> 
> Dress right. look sharp


As a general rule, I hire all subs based on their looks, followed quickly by their abilities. When it comes to painters, I will never hire one who has more paint on his truck, tools, and himself than anything else. It is absolutely indicative of their attention to detail and job quality. There have been a few painters that have tried to argue otherwise, but they forget that I'm standing right there looking at their work and their habits, so far I've not been proven wrong.


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## HDPaintPro (Dec 6, 2010)

I think that what is the issue here is laziness and good work ethics. Any craftsman who doesn't take immeasurable pride in their finished product is essentially lazy. If it be a Framer, Dry-waller, Carpenter, Painter, etc... is all the same. Part of your profession is to "pass off" to the next the ability for them to do their job as well.

There are certain stereotypes that all industries get and the construction industry has the lion's share for sure. Just ask yourself if challenging each other to rise above all that, and lead by example would not correct bad manners (or laziness).

Years ago, all Painters were assumed to be alcoholics, yet there were still exceptional craftsmen that emerged out of all that negativity. It's time to revolt against mediocrity and rise to the occasion!

...or something like that.

It's all about work ethics and the lack there of.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

C'mon, we all know it's the tapers who drink. :laughing:


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## Gough (May 1, 2010)

tcleve4911 said:


> The area I typically see that can always use improvement in the all trades is the people skills and social habits.
> 
> I've had customers pull me aside and express their concern about the shady looking characters working in their home.
> 
> ...


Several times, when I've been at the annual contractors' picnic put on by one of the local paint stores, I've been appalled when I survey the local representatives of my chosen trade. And these guys are surprised when potential clients don't call them back after the walk-through?? Around here, the average house painter looks like a pharmacist's mate on a chinese gunboat: lots of visible tattoos, piercings, dirty/holey whites, and general issues of personal hygiene. 

Back in the heyday of hitch-hiking, one saying was that you should try to look like the people that you'd like to pick you up. I think that same notion applies here, within reason. When I go to walk through a lawyer's house, I'm not showing up in a custom dark suit and a power tie, but I'll be washed, shaved, and wearing clean whites, that's for sure.


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## Gough (May 1, 2010)

A. Spruce said:


> As a general rule, I hire all subs based on their looks, followed quickly by their abilities. When it comes to painters, I will never hire one who has more paint on his truck, tools, and himself than anything else. It is absolutely indicative of their attention to detail and job quality. There have been a few painters that have tried to argue otherwise, but they forget that I'm standing right there looking at their work and their habits, so far I've not been proven wrong.


Exactly.

People tease me about having very little paint on my whites (or on me). I remind them that the point of the exercise is to put paint on other surfaces, not on myself.


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## Skooby (Dec 5, 2010)

I think employees also reflect on the painting contractor. This may be less important on new construction but for repaints it is paramount. I've had many customers adopt me after I was done. That wouldn't happen if I brought in a motley crew to work on their project. My goal is to never say or do anything that would make my customer even slightly uncomfortable. This is occasionally challenging here in the Mormon belt. But it's always worth the effort.


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## Gough (May 1, 2010)

Skooby said:


> I think employees also reflect on the painting contractor. This may be less important on new construction but for repaints it is paramount. I've had many customers adopt me after I was done. That wouldn't happen if I brought in a motley crew to work on their project. My goal is to never say or do anything that would make my customer even slightly uncomfortable. This is occasionally challenging here in the Mormon belt. But it's always worth the effort.


 
Absolutely. I provide my new hires with several sets of whites when they start. They have to keep them laundered, and I'll replace them before they look nasty.

Speaking of not making the customer uncomfortable, I've seen other subs get into heated arguments with clients about religion! I make it a point not to discuss Religion or Politics with clients...at least until they have the requred 250 posts.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I've been snickered at by younger painters at the paint store, because my whites are too clean:sad:

At least I think that's what they were laughin' at.

Hard tellin' with kids the way they are nowadays.


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## Gough (May 1, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> I've been snickered at by younger painters at the paint store, because my whites are too clean:sad:
> 
> At least I think that's what they were laughin' at.
> 
> Hard tellin' with kids the way they are nowadays.


Those darn kids.

I had an acquaintance who came up through the very rigid apprentice program for painters in Europe (Germany, IIRC). His first day at work, he noticed that all of the journeymen's whites were thoroughly spattered with paint, while he was in brand-new whites. In an attempt to blend it, he went over to where all of the color pots were stored and spattered paint all over his whites. He then reported for work with the foreman, who promptly sent him home for fresh clothes.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

heh...I'll admit, I feel more "comfortable" in whites that aren't BRAND new.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Gough said:


> Exactly.
> 
> People tease me about having very little paint on my whites (or on me). I remind them that the point of the exercise is to put paint on other surfaces, not on myself.


I had similar experiences frequently. They couldn't believe that I was wearing clean, new jeans and clean new polo shirts to work in. Then they'd look at my truck and marvel that I actually worked out of it. While I may have bought it new, it was a year old when I started out on my own and 7 years old when I replaced it, and still in almost perfect condition.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> heh...I'll admit, I feel more "comfortable" in whites that aren't BRAND new.


Don't worry about it, one breakfast at Denny's will get rid of that "new car" smell for ya. :laughing:


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## Gough (May 1, 2010)

A. Spruce said:


> I had similar experiences frequently. They couldn't believe that I was wearing clean, new jeans and clean new polo shirts to work in. Then they'd look at my truck and marvel that I actually worked out of it. While I may have bought it new, it was a year old when I started out on my own and 7 years old when I replaced it, and still in almost perfect condition.


One of the other painters in town leans doors up against his truck to spray them. Periodically, he'll spray the whole rig with whatever color of latex house paint is left in the airless. Sometimes, he takes the extra time to mask off the windows.

He and I cater to different markets.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Gough said:


> One of the other painters in town leans doors up against his truck to spray them. Periodically, he'll spray the whole rig with whatever color of latex house paint is left in the airless. Sometimes, he takes the extra time to mask off the windows.
> 
> He and I cater to different markets.





WOW!!

:shutup::shutup:

I should hope that you cater to different markets, hopefully you search for yours somewhere other than the Home Depot parking lot. :w00t::laughing:


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## Gough (May 1, 2010)

A. Spruce said:


> WOW!!
> 
> :shutup::shutup:
> 
> I should hope that you cater to different markets, hopefully you search for yours somewhere other than the Home Depot parking lot. :w00t::laughing:


Our town is too small for a Home Depot, but we've come to an agreement: we each have our own street corner where we park with our cardboard signs about painting for food.


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## Skooby (Dec 5, 2010)

Yeah well, I guess you would have to paint your work vehicle once or twice a year with your average latex. Oxidization would set in quick. That's the only thing keeping me from painting my car with a jade and black sponge faux finish with a spar varnish topcoat. Well, one of the only things.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Skooby said:


> Yeah well, I guess you would have to paint your work vehicle once or twice a year with your average latex. Oxidization would set in quick. That's the only thing keeping me from painting my car with a jade and black sponge faux finish with a spar varnish topcoat. Well, one of the only things.


I actually saw a mini truck the other day that had been painted with a brush and what looked like latex. It was a Ford, so it was an improvement ... :w00t:


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## Gough (May 1, 2010)

Skooby said:


> Yeah well, I guess you would have to paint your work vehicle once or twice a year with your average latex. Oxidization would set in quick. That's the only thing keeping me from painting my car with a jade and black sponge faux finish with a spar varnish topcoat. Well, one of the only things.


Is it a 2006 Malachite?


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## Skooby (Dec 5, 2010)

@1996 Intrepid black. A faux finish would make it look good if I had the time for a yearly refinish?


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## 4thGeneration (Nov 23, 2006)

Whats wrong with most Painters and Paint Contractors? Time, Talent And Thought. Most are just grumpy old men who have drank their life away and partied so hard they are living in 5th wheels on rented properties because no one told them they would grow out of the Super Man mold and be mere mortals.

I have seen a ton of them come and go and it has been sad because at least with the older generation they had talent. These days most painters do not roll our of bed before bankers hours.

Hope this helps :clap:


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

4thGeneration said:


> Most are just grumpy old men who have drank their life away and partied so hard they are living in 5th wheels


I'll agree there's some grumpy old painters around here (Boman's older than me BTW...I think Gough might be too)

anyhow...I don't think many of us live in a van down by the river.

yet

not that it sounds all that bad.


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## Gough (May 1, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> I'll agree there's some grumpy old painters around here (Boman's older than me BTW...I think Gough might be too)
> 
> anyhow...I don't think many of us live in a van down by the river.
> 
> ...


 
Steve, I resent that remark...I'm not grumpy.

Last year, however, I did celebrate the 21st anniversay of my 39th birthday


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Gough said:


> Steve, I resent that remark...I'm not grumpy.


:laughing:

I know that.

..and you know that I know that.

BTW...
Tomorrow is my 30th anniversary in business (the date of my first final-invoice of my first job)
..so congrats to me.

I hope none of you got me anything.


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## Gough (May 1, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I know that.
> 
> ...


Congratulations!


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> I hope none of you got me anything.


Too late, but that's ok, I can return it.


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## 4thGeneration (Nov 23, 2006)

I hope none of you got me anything.[/QUOTE]


I got your Super Bowl tickets waiting for you at the booth. Just tell em I sent ya... arty:


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

right now im dealing with this on site..

our painters do great work however. they refuse to carry a nail set for the odd nail thats not set.. two of us trimming a 2800 sq ft house which means 15,000 finish nails roughly. the painter flipped out that 17 nails werent set i had to drive 25 minutes from another site to come over and spend 8 minutes setting a few nails... then drive back to the other site.

being too lazy to take stickers off the side of doors when spraying, they simply spray the door as is... or better yet they spray the doors let them dry for 20 minutes then lean them up against one another so the paint peels when it drys. they fill nail holes and dap, we touch sand things flush and fill & sand any bad joints... they want to do nothing but deal with paint... and expect top dollar... 

on the reno im doing right now, everything is built up custom trim which takes time especially on a reno, alot of scribes.. he feels he shows up later in the day and claims he has priority to work in the room im working in.. when there are 4 other rooms that are pretty much done other than baseboard and custom closets,, i spent 10 hrs hanging a set of double doors with smaller ones directly above it, then hanging the trim.. he had scaffold set up after specically being told to work off a ladder . because of this i couldnt properly check my doors for how they were swinging..also every time i would set down a piece of trim directly next to where its going to be installed he moves it to another room or moves my tools..... 10 hrs to do something which under normal circumstances i could do in 4. because of this i was extremely agitated today and getting angy


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

woodworkbykirk said:


> our painters do great work however.





woodworkbykirk said:


> they refuse to carry a nail set for the odd nail thats not set.





woodworkbykirk said:


> being too lazy to take stickers off the side of doors when spraying, they simply spray the door as is... or better yet they spray the doors let them dry for 20 minutes then lean them up against one another





woodworkbykirk said:


> he has priority to work in the room im working in..





woodworkbykirk said:


> he had scaffold set up after specically being told to work off a ladder .





woodworkbykirk said:


> every time i would set down a piece of trim directly next to where its going to be installed he moves it to another room or moves my tools.....





woodworkbykirk said:


> 10 hrs to do something which under normal circumstances i could do in 4. because of this i was extremely agitated today and getting angy



Where does the great work begin? If they won't set nails, won't paint things properly, won't follow instruction, and insist on making your life miserable, why in the hell are they still your painter?

At some point you have to tell Steve Richards it's time for him to go. :w00t:


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

aaaaaaaaand I get my GD feelings hurt in this thread too.

I KNEW I shoulda just gone on to bed!


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## briancreary (Feb 10, 2010)

Unfortuanatly I think some of this has to do with a profession you can go into that pays fairly well, where you need no real resume, no education and no people skills. I've met and hired guys in the past that talk a good game and then work well for a week or two only to start taking two hour lunches and start using some pretty colorful language in front of 80 year old ladies. I think it all has to do with a certain human sense of entitlement, and unrealistic view of their own "talents." No-one will ever put into your job what you will put into it. Even good people (I have found) will try to cut corners if they think noone is looking. Trust but verify folks, and then hold accountable. 

_Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain_

P.S. I'd give Steve one more chance he is a Broncos fan after all and that can throw anyone off their game.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

briancreary said:


> ... unrealistic view of their own "talents."


That can be said about more than just painters.

I think the mark of a good painter is in how fast they can paint a 6 panel. :w00t::laughing:


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

A. Spruce said:


> That can be said about more than just painters.
> 
> I think the mark of a good painter is in how fast they can paint a 6 panel. :w00t::laughing:


:no:

I've heard it can be done (with a brush and roller) in less than 3 minutes per side.

But that's either an urban legend, or that guy wears a mask and cape.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

woodworkbykirk said:


> the painter flipped out that 17 nails werent set i had to drive 25 minutes from another site to come over and spend 8 minutes setting a few nails... then drive back to the other site.


That's just wrong.

I'd have set 'em...not because it was part of my job, as much as to just not be an A-hole.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> That's just wrong.
> 
> I'd have set 'em...not because it was part of my job, as much as to just not be an A-hole.


IMHO, a painter that won't set a nail is like a taper who won't set a drywall fastener or a flooring installer who doesn't set a fastener before laying the vinyl. Let's face it, unset fasteners happen to the best of us, what's the big deal, do the job right.

Although, I've heard if you're using Behr 2-in-1, that it will hide everything, so maybe it's all in the type of paint you're using? :w00t:


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## briancreary (Feb 10, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> :no:
> 
> I've heard it can be done (with a brush and roller) in less than 3 minutes per side.
> 
> But that's either an urban legend, or that guy wears a mask and cape.


I saw a Yeti do it in 2:37 but a Leprechaun was holding his paint tray for him, (so he kind of cheated).


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## 4thGeneration (Nov 23, 2006)

When the first generation of the family paint contracting company was started, my Great Grandpa used to fire people if they were not properly equipped to work each and every morning. A nail setter was part of the bag of tools they carried to name one.


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## monkey (Jan 25, 2009)

Steve Richards said:


> aaaaaaaaand I get my GD feelings hurt in this thread too.
> 
> I KNEW I shoulda just gone on to bed!


 
Your GD feelings again?
Did you ever think that we have GD feelings too? That maybe when you say we hurt your GD feelings it hurts our GD feelings?
GD
Try to be less self-indulgent and show some GD sensitivity for those of us with a thinner skin than you.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Why are painters all so expensive? I been working in our warehouse that's about 5k sqft and inside walls and outside walls needed painting. A few months ago we got quotes and they were unreal. I think they were around $12k just to paint the outside and inside walls of warehouse. This was not even for the office areas. 

My bro in law bought a sprayer for $500 and sprayed the inside walls in 1.5 days and took 13 gallons of primer and the same finish coat. Not sure of the cost of paint but $6k for paint and 1.5 days labor for one guy :blink: I don't think so.


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## briancreary (Feb 10, 2010)

For starters your brother in law was not attempting to run a business. So he paid no Comp or liability to do that since it was his property. He is paying no licensing fees to the state. He has no marketing budget. He bought a sprayer that he will probably put on cragislist now and recoup his money without problem. He paid no employees or subs, he did not have to match their taxes or pay someone to do his books. Could go on and on but you get the idea. And at the end of the day, I'm sure it didn't look as good as if a professional had done it. It is a warehouse not a Church so I guess it doesn't need to be pristine, but if you hire a professional they are going to charge professional prices. 13 gallons of paint seems a little low, but in the ballpark I guess. 

*Summary of my point=No one asks a heart surgeon why their prices are what they are. Could I do heart surgery? Sure, but do you want me to? :no:


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## 4thGeneration (Nov 23, 2006)

BCConstruction said:


> Why are painters all so expensive? I been working in our warehouse that's about 5k sqft and inside walls and outside walls needed painting. A few months ago we got quotes and they were unreal. I think they were around $12k just to paint the outside and inside walls of warehouse. This was not even for the office areas.
> 
> My bro in law bought a sprayer for $500 and sprayed the inside walls in 1.5 days and took 13 gallons of primer and the same finish coat. Not sure of the cost of paint but $6k for paint and 1.5 days labor for one guy :blink: I don't think so.


Same can be said I am sure of your services and I know I could find people cheaper priced than you correct? What would you say if someone said you were too pricey and that they could hire their bro inlaw to buy equipment and do what you do?


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Brians right. Don't forget too about the (unpaid) time that painter spends giving estimates to people that end up doing the work themselves.

Without a lot more specifics, I can't comment on the price.

But I'm pretty sure that warehouse looks like crap now, and that your BIL still has paint in his hair.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

monkey said:


> Your GD feelings again?
> Did you ever think that we have GD feelings too? That maybe when you say we hurt your GD feelings it hurts our GD feelings?
> GD
> Try to be less self-indulgent and show some GD sensitivity for those of us with a thinner skin than you.



Please don't whine to me about your sensitivenuss.


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> Please don't whine to me about your sensitivenuss.


GD whiners ...:w00t::laughing:


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## Skooby (Dec 5, 2010)

BCConstruction

How many bids did you get? What type of painters did you call? I do custom repaints in the mid to high level. If you asked me to bid a warehouse my price would be much higher than say a commercial painter that primarily does warehouse projects. By the same token, if a commercial warehouse painter bid a job that I typically do they would probably be too low and do a job that isn't up to par with what a lot of homeowners expect. Painting is like Chef's work. You don't go to a Gordon Ramsay restaurant and ask what they have on the dollar menu. Just like you don't go to Micky D's and hope for some haute cuisine.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

So now painters are compared to brain surgeons:blink: yes it was only a warehouse so why so much money in the guys pocket. Like many I understand what it costs to run a business and my costs are way higher than any painters will ever be. But my prices are no where near what they want to earn. Perhaps if they didn't give such crazy rates then they wouldn't have to be running around looking for work and pricing day in day out. One of the guys who gave a quote was a guy who ripped me off for $250 and when I see the quote I just laughed and put it to the side but he was the cheapest at about $8k but again that's still too much money for what he had to do. We was even supplying the lift as I booked one out for a month and didn't need it as much as I thought. If you painters think your time is worth almost $500 an hour then perhaps I need to rethink what trade I'm sticking with.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

the lead hand is lazy and bitches, he refuses to set nails...if hes on site he whines and moans until one of us does it. the rest of the guys do whats needed to get the job done. they will set nails. 

oh and the #1 reason we keep using them, the co-owner /foreman is a hot 32 year old about 5'5.....


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

woodworkbykirk said:


> the lead hand is lazy and bitches, he refuses to set nails...if hes on site he whines and moans until one of us does it. the rest of the guys do whats needed to get the job done. they will set nails.
> 
> oh and the #1 reason we keep using them, the co-owner /foreman is a hot 32 year old about 5'5.....


A woman I hope Kirk :whistling


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

JoshuaPaul said:


> I would love to hear about new innovations to professionalism in the industry. What are the biggest problems GC's have with painters, and secondly, how do I educate GC's about our solutions to those problems?


Problema numero uno: mexicans that can't speak engrish and do mexican quality work.
Second, stop hiring junkies and drunks so you can compete with down there with the mexicans.

It seems that's the choice on small (resid) jobs. Larger jobs we the sub can fire mexicans that do their type work and not hire american drunks/druggies.

Now that I'm on my own (residential work), I keep a few cards of the people I've ran across that are americans and worth a hoot.

My experiences.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Skooby said:


> I think employees also reflect on the painting contractor.


The bait and switch is common in a lot of trades. Americans get the job and mexicans come and do it and about none of them speak/understand english.

Cleaning services are also like that--americans get the sale and their top line crew/individual for the first month or so, then down to the mexicans that can't speak english, want charity cash on the side, etc.

I've sort of fallen into my own ongoing gig, but before this, when I was talking to homeowners, I'd say, "I am the company and I will be the one doing the work". When I do sub something out (rarely), it's either someone I have a past relationship with or the home owner.

Granted, I won't make a million bucks this year or over the next handful, but I make a good living at it and am comfortable.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

hell yes.. my only complaint about her is that her work tshirts arent as tight as her jeans


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

DeanV said:


> It seems to me that the damage on remodels is often excessive. I have run into very poor drywall work on some remodel work. Areas not sanded, not enough mud, not blending repair areas, etc. These mistakes add up to another trip for us to the job. Which cost us money.
> 
> Add into the process that I cannot get some people to understand that we want, no need, to be the last trade in. After solid surface flooring, after granite, etc. Otherwise, it is another trip to fix damages from those trades.
> 
> GC's can make it a whole lot easier to get a quality job at a reasonable cost if they would listen to us, but they usually do not care to listen.



pretty much.

I've worked for all types of GC's all 'round the country and have found them to all have the same poor attitude towards painters.
There are exceptions to the rule, however I have yet to find 1.

Reasons, got plenny:

No yearly certifications for painting. Electricians and plumbers gobble up the lion's share of the GC's budget requiring a certain pay level to cover their education (skill set). This leaves the skimpy remainder for painters, which in turn breeds lowballers.

GC' s talk a lot about "proper pay for quality work" yet won't reveal their idea of "proper pay", they will reveal their idea of "quality work" though. 

GC's have their pick of out of work painters, 30-1. Do you honestly think they are losing profits in order to hire DaVinci when Lopez is willing to get started today for 3/4 less? ha.

Painters should fix other trades' idiot errors willingly with no charges or whining? Your Mother should make me a sammich...cut the crust off plz. no whining.

Most GC's these days are still in 2004...you know, when all they did was shmooze and rake in the cash while having "business lunches" at olive garden 5 days a week. Gone are those days, but lo the attitude remains.

Many more up my sleeve but hey, painters are a dime a dozen and the squeaky wheel is not oiled, it's replaced.
Amirite GC folk?

I refuse to do residential under a GC, as a matter of fact I educate my clients to some of the ways their GC is cutting corners, and not following the contract. I could make a GREAT living just from charging for the service.

I realize this is a direct slam on GC's, and will be hotly contested...by GC's. Welcome to the Painting portion of the forum, bring it.

WisePainter.


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## SasquatchPaint (Dec 1, 2010)

WisePainter said:


> pretty much.
> 
> I've worked for all types of GC's all 'round the country and have found them to all have the same poor attitude towards painters.
> There are exceptions to the rule, however I have yet to find 1.
> ...


I have to stick with you WisePainter. In my past 6 or so years of being in business for my self about I've only been stiffed three times. All three times is was by GCs.

I won't even work for remodel GC's anymore. S#!+ rolls down hill, and it's way too easy for a remodel guy to just throw me under the bus in an attempt to save face with a customer.


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## Langpony (Nov 29, 2010)

The problem with many painting contractors are that they started the business with a lack of proper experience and ethics in dealing with general contractors and clients.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Sorry to hear that guys. As a carpenter and a GC I value my painter a lot.

I worked with a Dutch painter for a bit years ago. He taught me the basics. So if it's just a bathroom or kitchen job, I'll paint it myself.

But, say I've got a high end job - customer wants NO brushmarks, silk wallpaper, flawless ceilings, etc. etc. That's when I call my guy.

He is expensive !! And worth every penny. This kind of work quickly seperates the hacks from the trained painters. 

Last job I had him on was a complete home re-paint. We did over 1000 lf. of crown and there was NO caulking for him to do. We work well together, know what each expects from the other.

So not all GC's are bad. I think the smaller ones are maybe more appreciative. And look for the ones doing high end work.


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Langpony said:


> The problem with many painting contractors are that they started the business with a lack of proper experience and ethics in dealing with general contractors and clients.



Why are you hiring substandard painters as your subcontractor? 

If you are having problems with the painters you hire, as it seems you are, then it's exactly that...your problem.
Unfortunately some poor H.O. is also sharing your problem.

Which actually comes around to affect the reputation of all painters.

thanks!






katoman said:


> Sorry to hear that guys. As a carpenter and a GC I value my painter a lot.
> 
> I worked with a Dutch painter for a bit years ago. He taught me the basics. So if it's just a bathroom or kitchen job, I'll paint it myself.
> 
> ...


Sure not all GC's are terrible, but there are enough of the bad crowd to cause concern amongst painters.
The crowd seemingly grew larger after the housing market crashed...

I have met with a few that apparently watched their buddy get rich as a GC and assumed they would also, not realizing that 12 years as an office grunt does not a G.C. make.
Their credentials don't go much further than what they watched on HGTV, This Old House, and TLC's "Property Ladder".


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