# Framing 7' knee wall for tile



## HandyHails (Feb 28, 2009)

I have a customer looking to have a wall put in for a doorless shower that is going to be 7' tall. Needless to say I'm concerned about the stability and strength of this wall. It will be clad on the inside w/ 24" tile and 1" mosaics on the outside. My first thought were to suggest running a double stud to the ceiling at the right angle and again at the end of the run. I could then clad that in tile, but I think it would look odd.

I'm looking for advice on how to construct this wall without running it to the ceiling. I do 52" knees all the time. I generally just tie two sets of double studs to the joists below and tie in to eliminate wracking. Not so sure of this method on 7' tall walls.

I've attached some renders I banged out on Sketchup.

I'd love your thoughts. I almost posted this in the tile section, but thought it would be better off here.

Thanks,


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Drop the double at the entrance into the floor and after everything else is tied with hardoard and the tile it will not move.


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## HandyHails (Feb 28, 2009)

You can kind of see there is a triangular bench going in on the inside corner as well. This will be framed out and help to tie it in. Do you think I'm worrying over nothing?


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## bhock (Feb 17, 2009)

If its worrying you, just cut a diagonal let-in brace in the wall with the entrance. That should stiffen it up.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

I think what greg says will work.

If you are still worried, you can drop one or two of the corner studs into the joist, that will definitely help.

The corner bench will act similar to a collar tie on roof rafters, holding everything together and square.


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## HandyHails (Feb 28, 2009)

bhock said:


> If its worrying you, just cut a diagonal let-in brace in the wall with the entrance. That should stiffen it up.


I do that anyway, even in small knee walls that I tile. I'm mostly thinking of side to side movement close to the shower entrance here. Wracking doesn't concern me at all.


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## Ashcon (Apr 28, 2009)

If you are still worried I would do two things, glue the tile substrait to the 

studs and keep each sheet tight to the floor and glue it as well.

I have done this with half walls made from steel stud and drywall in 

commercial applications. 

You would be surprised how stiff it makes everything.

If your using kerdi or something like it you should have no problem letting 

the sheets run to the floor.

Good luck Chad


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

You can also make a couple of "L" plates out of 3/4" plywood and use these to help keep the top plates square. Running the studs into the floor is also nice. Can you run every stud into the floor? May take a while, but if it helps you sleep at night it is worth it.


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## Keeyter (Sep 18, 2010)

Let In Bracing in my experience helps, but for the time involved in doing it versus the lateral force benefits its useless. Facing the dry side with Ply/OSB provides more lateral bracing than let in bracing. 

If it was my project I would drop studs into the joists, OSB the dry side, and finish surface as needed. 

Here is a site with reference. I understand lateral loads may not be extreme but look at the differences in loading and you'll see Let In is a waste of time.

My two Cents

http://mgacon0.tripod.com/plywood.htm


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## alboston (Feb 22, 2007)

Similar to what the 2 above said, try and drop the studs below and attach to the sides of the floor joist or blocking with lags. If it was a straight wall, I would worry only a little, but for yours with an L shape it will be fine.


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## HandyHails (Feb 28, 2009)

Sounds good guys. Like I stated above I ALWAYS drop at least two points to below the subfloor and tie into the joists on a knee wall. I've just never done one this tall. The group response makes me feel much better that this can be done effectively with little to worry about. I know there will be some fiddling w/ it once I'm on site framing this up, but knowing that you guys unanimously say that it won't be a problem gives me a confidence that I can figure it out. Thanks a lot everyone.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

HandyHails said:


> Sounds good guys. Like I stated above I ALWAYS drop at least two points to below the subfloor and tie into the joists on a knee wall. I've just never done one this tall. The group response makes me feel much better that this can be done effectively with little to worry about. I know there will be some fiddling w/ it once I'm on site framing this up, but knowing that you guys unanimously say that it won't be a problem gives me a confidence that I can figure it out. Thanks a lot everyone.


I would worry a little. I have never built one that tall without tying it into the ceiling or across the door header.


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## HandyHails (Feb 28, 2009)

I was actually thinking about buying a sheet of 3/4 and cutting it as a top plate. That is what you were referring to above correct? A one piece L shape glued and screwed ought to be hella sturdy after I drop those studs to the joists. I could see the double stud for the jamb and another double dropped 16" after. Bench in the corner. The plywood top plate was the missing link. I will express my concerns w/ the HO just in case but will tell him I think I can make it solid without the wall going all the way to the ceiling. 

Worst case scenario if I build and there is still a little wobble, I can run a small 6" bracer to the ceiling at the entry jamb, or however wide looks good, to sturdy it up.


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## robert c1 (Mar 11, 2007)

Another option is to double up the bottom plate and wrap both sides in plywood.

Glued and nailed It's just about bomb proof. 

I built a 40' long 5' tall wall on top of a concrete stubwall about 3 years ago.
This one was 2x6 construction with t1-11 on both sides. I think I nailed it on 8" centers no glue. I just saw it the other day. Put my shoulder to and gave it a good wack .. No deflection at all.

You could do it with a 2x4 and your only at 4.5" before your tile substrate.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

All of the above. :thumbsup: 

Secure the bottom plate well. Screw all together well. Stand up walls with one piece drywall and cement board. 

Very important to make sure walls are plumb while screwing off. And always start screws in bottom plate first. 

The weieght of all the material alone would just about hold that wall in place.You have nothing to worry about. arty:


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## alboston (Feb 22, 2007)

Nice Sketchup work by the way. Wish I could "bang" out designs like that on Sketchup. Takes me forever to draw something on that.


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## HandyHails (Feb 28, 2009)

Easy once you get the hang of it. I would consider that to be quick and easy and I've only been working w/ it for a couple of months. Ton of great tutorials on Youtube if your interested. That bathroom took maybe half an hour.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

HandyHails said:


> I was actually thinking about buying a sheet of 3/4 and cutting it as a top plate. That is what you were referring to above correct? A one piece L shape glued and screwed ought to be hella sturdy.


This was the first thing I thought of. 1 1/8" ply would be stronger and the more layers you use the stronger.:thumbsup:


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

i dont know if this is too late but i second what Ashcon said. 
gluing (PL) your substrate to the studs works tremendously. it removes any play that screws allow. in commercial work we bolt a piece of steel at the end of knee wall to the slab, similar to bolting your stud to the floor joist. gluing any connections will help 10 fold. my 2 cents


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## HandyHails (Feb 28, 2009)

Not too late at all. This is still in the discussion and planning phase. I think the high knee wall is kinda asinine, but I will do my best to please. After further discussion it turns out the HO is looking for a doorless shower to save on the price of glass. I am trying my best to talk him into something a little nicer in the space. Even if this doesn't happen I have a lot of good ideas to take down the road if something a like this pops up again.


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

HandyHails said:


> Not too late at all. This is still in the discussion and planning phase. I think the high knee wall is kinda asinine, but I will do my best to please. After further discussion it turns out the HO is looking for a doorless shower to save on the price of glass. I am trying my best to talk him into something a little nicer in the space. Even if this doesn't happen I have a lot of good ideas to take down the road if something a like this pops up again.



correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the cost of these knee walls from engineering to tile, including labor similar to the cost of having the shower cornered off in glass? you might lose some work going glass instead of wall and tile. but you can sleep at night


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## HandyHails (Feb 28, 2009)

That was my point exactly. When I first talked to the homeowner, I got the impression that the tall knee walls were just a design "feature" that he thought would be different and fun and to allow the steam to find its way to a centrally located fan. As it turns out he is just thinking he would save over $1500 in glass as this is the round number I gave him. I already explained to him the extra work and time involved will chew into his "savings" considerably. Not to mention he started talking about putting a window in one of the knee walls to let in more natural light. At this point I'm starting to doubt that I will even do this job. He is starting to trip over dollars to pick up dimes. The drawing above is the third revision of really what amounts to a small bathroom. Not to mention the toilet location is not where it is at now and the soil pipe will have to be relocated in order to make that shower work. I honestly don't see any cost savings in this design and it is really my least favorite of the three. I'm done giving him revisions. He's got three viable options. If he wants to cut down on the scope of the project that is fine, but he's not gonna get a total redo for anything less than what I've already quoted him. Soon it will be a curbed walk in w/ framed shower doors and ceramic tile on the floor. I can see it already.


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