# 2.3% obamacare tax.. Does that apply to contractors?



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

I doubt we're going to agree on this one but you took the time to respond, which I appreciate, so I'll do the same.

I think that health insurance companies make a LOT of profit. I don't feel the need to assist them in that but I think that if everyone just went out and bought health insurance when they were hurt or ill then the cost of a monthly premium would skyrocket. We're not going to trick the health insurance company and they will get their margin. Unless I run out on the bill or qualify for government assistance then I either pay the insurance company premium or the full tab from the hospital/doctor/etc..

I said that our plan currently costs $500. Most employers would agree that we ultimately pay the full cost of the premium because my wife's salary is reduced to compensate the expense. I don't consider it a waste because, for that $6k we get to go to the doctor whenever we are ill or for a checkup, the dentist for cleanings or fillings, the optometrist for exams and glasses, etc.. It's well worth the money if we use the benefits. If we didn't have the insurance we wouldn't do those things, or at least not as often. That would probably make us less healthy and increase the risk of missing the onset of a real problem.

I do consider myself "savvy" about getting good rates on insurance and that may be part of the reason I'm comfortable with what we pay. I was shocked when I realized that my wife's company offered a HSA that literally could not, in any circumstance, cost as much as their other two plans yet had half the premium. All of her coworkers are on the more expensive plan because they "didn't understand" the HSA plan. Diligence is critical and I think we agree on that.

Whatever happens in the future with the health care system, I will probably continue to buy health insurance, life insurance, car insurance, GL and WC. I don't have enough money to personally foot the bill for any of the major events that those things can cover for me. I don't gamble with bankruptcy or poverty and I can afford those things, pay my bills and live a fairly comfortable life even though we don't make very much.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

EthanB said:


> I think that health insurance companies make a LOT of profit. I don't feel the need to assist them in that but I think that if everyone just went out and bought health insurance when they were hurt or ill then the cost of a monthly premium would skyrocket.


That is exactly what is going to happen... which is why insurance is ratcheting up... so aren't you better off coming up with a new strategy?




EthanB said:


> We're not going to trick the health insurance company and they will get their margin. Unless I run out on the bill or qualify for government assistance then I either pay the insurance company premium or the full tab from the hospital/doctor/etc..


Here's the kicker, CASH is king... Don't take my word for it... Ask your doctor if you pay cash, HOW MUCH (not if) of a discount do you get? The reason they do is they don't have to file the paperwork, and WAIT for payment (typically 60-90 days). They have payroll expenses too... 

Paying cash is especially true if you visit a lot which it sounds like you do... regular customer paying cash? Discount... no problem...



EthanB said:


> I said that our plan currently costs $500. Most employers would agree that we ultimately pay the full cost of the premium because my wife's salary is reduced to compensate the expense.


So then have her decline the coverage and INCREASE her pay... you never know until you ask...

With the HSA, you are ALREADY self-financing a portion of your healthcare... in addition to this cost that comes out of your wife's check, you are also paying an ADDITIONAL $6K per year in premiums... The HSA maximum for pre-tax is now going to be $2500, so between the two, YOU are shelling out $8500 PER YEAR of which, the MAJORITY goes to the insurance company... and that does not include co-pays and deductibles... and if you can get her employer to raise her pay if she declines coverage... BONUS...

If your doctor, eye, dental bills rack up to over $8500 (or $700 PER MONTH), you may want to start shopping their services... 




EthanB said:


> If we didn't have the insurance we wouldn't do those things, or at least not as often. That would probably make us less healthy and increase the risk of missing the onset of a real problem.


And you just hit on one of the reasons WHY insurance is s expensive... do you realize that people go to the doctor for the common cold, of which, the doctor can do NOTHING about at this stage of the game other than suggest over the counter meds?... BILLIONS wasted every year, and this is just on the common cold...




EthanB said:


> Whatever happens in the future with the health care system, I will probably continue to buy health insurance, life insurance, car insurance, GL and WC. I don't have enough money to personally foot the bill for any of the major events that those things can cover for me.


And this is my entire point... as it relates to health insurance IF a major health issue comes along, THEN you buy the insurance... But in the meantime, you BANK the rest...

Put it in a Roth IRA (you can take it out anytime if you need it as it is not subject to penalties as you don't write it off or pay taxes down the line).... 



EthanB said:


> I don't gamble with bankruptcy or poverty and I can afford those things, pay my bills and live a fairly comfortable life even though we don't make very much.


Yes, but can you imagine what you can do with the money you are just GIVING the insurance company when you don't have to? THINK about it...

With the pre-existing condition clause gone, the risk is now gone... it's no longer a gamble as it relates to health insurance... just strategy...


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

I posted about this years ago. 

Before our daughter was born, I checked into costs at the hospital.

As I recall, a vaginal birth was going to cost about $10,000. If I paid cash before I left the hospital, I believe they told me it would be about $3000. Whatever the numbers, I think it was about 70% less. And they gave me this in writing.

Probably I posted about this as well. 

If you need medical care, leave this country. I was looking at hernia surgery and they told me I should have $10,000 to spend. I got it done overseas for $900 and this included a general anesthesia and a night in the hospital. These two items were not included in the US price and might have cost another $3500.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

EthanB said:


> Whatever happens in the future with the health care system, I will probably continue to buy health insurance...


Something to consider... 


*IRS: Cheapest Obamacare Plan Will Be $20,000 Per Family... *http://cnsnews.com/news/article/irs-cheapest-obamacare-plan-will-be-20000-family


NOW is the time to start putting a strategy into place... it's not going to go down... and the more you are able to bank and pay cash for everyday healthcare versus catastrophic the more you will save and better your position in the long run... 

Best of luck... 8^)


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

That amount is more than some families make. I'm sure they will get assistance. And I'm also sure that others will pay for that assistance, meaning you will pay more that $20K for your program.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Leo G said:


> That amount is more than some families make. I'm sure they will get assistance. And I'm also sure that others will pay for that assistance, meaning you will pay more that $20K for your program.


Check into the 40% excise tax for the "Cadillac" plans... it won't be long before a lot of people meet that threshold...


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

With the price of healthcare rising at an alarming rate and none of the plans indexed to this sort of inflation the normal everyday plan will soon be considered a Cadillac plan just because of the price and not because of what you get from it.

I don't think you should be punished with a fine (taxed) because you want to have a good health plan. Just because you are wealthy doesn't mean you are going to have a better plan, and just because you are poor doesn't mean you aren't willing to sacrifice to have a good health plan for your family.

Just like the ATM which had intentions of getting extra from the extremely wealthy, this to was flawed because it was not indexed to inflation. Soon it became a burden to people never intended to see it implemented on. And that took decades to repair in congress. Why? Because it was extra money into the coffers and they never refuse extra money to spend. This will happen with the Cadillac money also.


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## cabinetsnj (Jun 10, 2012)

tsb said:


> Yeah, just have the ambulance stop at the 24 hour health insurance store on the way to the hospital :facepalm
> 
> And if you really want to save money just 1099 your employees and let your general liability insurance and wc lapse.


It would be nice if life were that easy. Unfortunatly, you need insurance.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

Obamacare was written by health insurance company lobbyists. You can bet they will be well funded.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Well, here is an article by Douglas Holtz-Eakin (former director of the CBO)...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/20/sharp-shoppers-scuttle-obamacare/

From the article... *"Younger Americans are central to this vision of broader insurance coverage. First, they are supposed to participate in insurance coverage, and the mandate and penalty are there to make sure that this comes to fruition. Second, by having the young in the insurance pool with their low health care costs, the insurance offered in the exchanges would be more attractive and affordable to older and sicker Americans. In effect, young Americans are supposed to be both key participants and the piggy bank of the expansion effort.

Unfortunately, health insurance is a product, not a social vision. What we know to be true thanks to ample survey and analytic research is that in 2014, Obamacare will cause insurance premiums to rise sharply for the healthy and young. When it comes to products, Americans aged 18 to 40 act like consumers of all ages everywhere: They have a price point, and when the price gets too high, they get busy making changes."

"If premiums rise 10 percent, 7 percent of those polled would pay the penalty, but then turn around and buy insurance (as the law dictates they must be permitted to do) if they got sick. The fraction rises to 11 percent and 20 percent for the larger premium hikes, respectively.

Choosing the penalty over insurance, or conveniently buying insurance (from the ambulance) just when it is needed, has been caricatured as responses only dreamed up by opponents of Obamacare. Not so, as it turns out."

"Obamacare is intended to expand insurance coverage by mandating that those same young Americans form a lower-cost insurance pool. This group, however, powerfully undercuts this goal. Behaving like all price-conscious consumers, young Americans will drop their insurance in the face of sharp premium increases."



*

What we discussed a few months ago is already happening,.. what's your strategy?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

The future of healthCARE, not health INSURANCE...

http://bangordailynews.com/2013/05/...tops-accepting-insurance-posts-prices-online/

From the article... <b>_"Even with the loss of some patients, Ciampi expects his practice to perform just as well financially, if not better, than before he ditched insurance. The new approach will likely attract new patients who are self-employed, lack insurance or have high-deductible plans, he said, because Ciampi has slashed his prices.

“I’ve been able to cut my prices in half because my overhead will be so much less,” he said.

Before, Ciampi charged $160 for an office visit with an existing patient facing one or more complicated health problems. Now, he charges $75.

Patients with an earache or strep throat can spend $300 at their local hospital emergency room, or promptly get an appointment at his office and pay $50, he said."​_</b>







Look at how insurance payments are all over the place...

bangordailynews.com/2013/05/08/health/medicare-reveals-hospitals-prices-for-first-time/?ref=inline


.
Time to start thinking strategy... or you can just continue funneling money to the government or the insurance companies...

The one saving grace in this Obomination of a law is the community rating & guarantee issue clauses (even though they were popping up in states already)... if you end up with a catastrophic illness, take out the insurance... they HAVE TO accept you and you DON'T PAY more than your community...

Then BANK the money you would have ALREADY BEEN SPENDING and SHOP for your healthcare...


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

KAP said:


> The future of healthCARE, not health INSURANCE...
> 
> http://bangordailynews.com/2013/05/...tops-accepting-insurance-posts-prices-online/
> 
> ...


Where did they get those prices at, a few month ago I went to a walk in clinic. All I did was pee in a cup and went home, total bill so far is just under $1000. I just got another bill last week. I told them I felt like crap the last 3 days. They said pee in a cup and we will send it out and see what we find. They found nothing. Lab work for the pee was just under $500, the clinic bill was like $426


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Michaeljp86 said:


> Where did they get those prices at, a few month ago I went to a walk in clinic. All I did was pee in a cup and went home, total bill so far is just under $1000. I just got another bill last week. I told them I felt like crap the last 3 days. They said pee in a cup and we will send it out and see what we find. They found nothing. Lab work for the pee was just under $500, the clinic bill was like $426


Did you offer cash and did you shop around and compare prices?... 

Look at that one procedure with different hospitals in the surrounding area... a difference of TEN'S of THOUSANDS...

Cash means they get paid now, insurance means they have to work MORE and WAIT for the money after going back and forth with the insurance company...

Time for a new strategy that DOESN'T include making the insurance company rich or throwing money down the black-hole of government...


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

KAP said:


> Did you offer cash and did you shop around and compare prices?...
> 
> Look at that one procedure with different hospitals in the surrounding area... a difference of TEN'S of THOUSANDS...
> 
> ...


There is only one health care company around me, the own everything, eye doctors, home care, hospitals, nursing homes. I have no choice but to go to them unless I want to drive for 8 hours. If they don't bill me any more I should have in less then $200 after ins.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Michaeljp86 said:


> Where did they get those prices at, a few month ago I went to a walk in clinic. All I did was pee in a cup and went home, total bill so far is just under $1000. I just got another bill last week. I told them I felt like crap the last 3 days. They said pee in a cup and we will send it out and see what we find. They found nothing. Lab work for the pee was just under $500, the clinic bill was like $426


I'd still be curious to see what they would say to cash... but you never know until you ask...


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

KAP said:


> I'd still be curious to see what they would say to cash... but you never know until you ask...


When I fell from a tree I didnt have ins and had to pay cash, the cash cost a lot more vs ins. The reason was if you didnt pay they would use it as a tax write off, thats why they jacked the price up. Before the surgury I was told $15,000 cash. Came to over $30,000. 

I like rush limbaughs theory on paying cash. Hes just stupid in thinking everyone has millions of dollars like he has.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Michaeljp86 said:


> When I fell from a tree I didnt have ins and had to pay cash, the cash cost a lot more vs ins. The reason was if you didnt pay they would use it as a tax write off, thats why they jacked the price up. Before the surgury I was told $15,000 cash. Came to over $30,000.


TWICE the amount for cash? Why didn't you call the media? Why would you even CONSIDER paying twice the amount for cash? This is hard for me to believe that they would do that and that you would actually pay it... at minimum, they had a verbal contract (based on your were told) with you for $15,000... and it would cost them MORE than that to defend it...


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

KAP said:


> TWICE the amount for cash? Why didn't you call the media? Why would you even CONSIDER paying twice the amount for cash? This is hard for me to believe that they would do that and that you would actually pay it... at minimum, they had a verbal contract (based on your were told) with you for $15,000... and it would cost them MORE than that to defend it...


How would I fight it? I was 20 years old and couldnt afford a lawyer. And besides that they destroyed my credit score. You had 90 days to pay it or it went to a collection agency.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Michaeljp86 said:


> How would I fight it? I was 20 years old and couldnt afford a lawyer. And besides that they destroyed my credit score. You had 90 days to pay it or it went to a collection agency.


You were a victim of a lack of knowledge... by law, if you don't have insurance, they HAVE to accept what you can afford to pay (even if that's $25/month) NOT what they want you to pay... as long as you pay every month they CANNOT send it to collections...

Everyone remember that...


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

KAP said:


> You were a victim of a lack of knowledge... by law, if you don't have insurance, they HAVE to accept what you can afford to pay (even if that's $25/month) NOT what they want you to pay... as long as you pay every month they CANNOT send it to collections...
> 
> Everyone remember that...


Wish I knew that then but even still this medical system near my is a scam, they will rob you blind. They sent so many separate bill I would have had to send them a penny each.The worst one is the physicians assistant. The hospital send me a bill for the physician assistant looking at me, $1124 IIRC and then he sent me his own private bill for $938. 

They also refused to treat me at the hosptal when they found out I didnt have ins. They threw me out the door, I didnt know who I was or where I was. Then some blond woman who seemed familiar told me to get in a car that seemed familiar. 

They only have to treat you if you are dying. I had chunks of bone sticking though my skin but I guess a exploded bone wont kill you so they sent me packing.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Michaeljp86 said:


> Wish I knew that then but even still this medical system near my is a scam, they will rob you blind. They sent so many separate bill I would have had to send them a penny each.The worst one is the physicians assistant. The hospital send me a bill for the physician assistant looking at me, $1124 IIRC and then he sent me his own private bill for $938.
> 
> They also refused to treat me at the hosptal when they found out I didnt have ins. They threw me out the door, I didnt know who I was or where I was. Then some blond woman who seemed familiar told me to get in a car that seemed familiar.
> 
> They only have to treat you if you are dying. I had chunks of bone sticking though my skin but I guess a exploded bone wont kill you so they sent me packing.


They have to at a minimum assess you... with bones sticking out of your arm, that would be a huge liability to them...


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

KAP said:


> They have to at a minimum assess you... with bones sticking out of your arm, that would be a huge liability to them...


They assessed me alright, took a $3000 x ray and sent me home. Later on I was pulling bone splinters out of my skin because they were grabbing my shirt. It was a disaster that lasted about 2 years. The guy I was working dropped his insurance which covered workers accidents. Were not friends anymore
:laughing:


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