# membrane sheets, red gard, ardex 8-9 question



## dfphoto (Oct 7, 2013)

Hi group, I'm an electrician, hiring a tile contractor, have a question on using a membrane vs red gard vs ardex 8-9.

1. Tub surround has waterproof paper on the studs, and wonderboard. I was going to redgard, then a membrane sheet, but a little worried about my buddy who did the wonderboard because the corner seams are a bit rough not too straight. Should I have the tile guy fix that after the membrane or before.
2. Cracks on the cement in the vanity, would you use a membrane sheet or ardex 8-9 or is redgard sufficient.
3. Kitchen was leveled with no cracks on the surface, not sure if I should add a membrane, ardex 8-9, or redgard. Thanks in advance for your time and help. Dave


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

dfphoto said:


> Hi group, I'm an electrician, hiring a tile contractor, have a question on using a membrane vs red gard vs ardex 8-9.
> 
> 1. Tub surround has waterproof paper on the studs, and wonderboard. I was going to redgard, then a membrane sheet, but a little worried about my buddy who did the wonderboard because the corner seams are a bit rough not too straight. Should I have the tile guy fix that after the membrane or before.
> 2. Cracks on the cement in the vanity, would you use a membrane sheet or ardex 8-9 or is redgard sufficient.
> 3. Kitchen was leveled with no cracks on the surface, not sure if I should add a membrane, ardex 8-9, or redgard. Thanks in advance for your time and help. Dave


What's waterproof paper?

If he put plastic on the face of the studs then wonderboard I wouldn't put another layer of waterproofing.

Need more details to answer the other questions...


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

Fix the walls now, Call the tile guy over let him take a look, He may be the guy to fix the walls. Then ask him about water proofing. Red guard and hydroban are membranes.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> What's waterproof paper?
> 
> If he put plastic on the face of the studs then wonderboard I wouldn't put another layer of waterproofing.
> 
> Need more details to answer the other questions...


Completely wrong advice. The fact that there is waterproofing under the cement backer board means nothing. The substrate needs to be waterproofed. For the couple hours it would take, I would re do the poor wall board installation. If it's not right from the get go, you'll have a mess on your hands all the way through.


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

This won't win me too many friends with the backer board crowd, but oh well. 
Do this:
1. Remove and trash blunder board. 
2. Have a qualified tile guy run Aquabar (or equivalent) water barrier paper straight to studs, overlapping a good 4-6". 
3. Metal lath. Again, overlap, 2" minimum
4. Scratch coat.
5. Float surface perfectly flat, level, plumb, and square. 
5. Roll on RedGuard for extra protection against cracking and water issues. (Optional, but a good idea)
6. Tile and grout as usual, and walk away knowing you've had it done right.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

Another alternative would be to use Kerdi board. The stuff is basically idiot proof, and you'd be tiling the same day.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

ArtisanRemod said:


> Completely wrong advice. The fact that there is waterproofing under the cement backer board means nothing. The substrate needs to be waterproofed. For the couple hours it would take, I would re do the poor wall board installation. If it's not right from the get go, you'll have a mess on your hands all the way through.


So what's the problem with properly installed 6mil poly behind cement board? If I already had that installed I wouldn't bother ripping it down.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> So what's the problem with properly installed 6mil poly behind cement board? If I already had that installed I wouldn't bother ripping it down.


Cement board is not waterproof. Your quote "I wouldn't add another layer of waterproofing" is absolutely incorrect. You can discuss all you want, but my advice would be to keep your advice about tile work to yourself.


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## dfphoto (Oct 7, 2013)

Hi everyone, I have a massive head cold wasn't clear on my original post, apologies. 
I meant we put 15lb felt on the studs, then wonderboard, when I said should I put redgard then a membrane, meant all the contractors were telling me to put redgard on before they came. I was sort of shocked they said this to me, but I guess they think I am in the biz... and I should do some of the work. (Not sure why) anyway, I am also thinking my friend did a crap job, but I wasn't really looking at his work as I had my hands full repairing all the electrical mess I had until today.

The wonderboard is straight but not the corners, they look bad, but the three guys didn't think it was bad they simply want to make sure water doesn't go up at the tub edge, and they want to make sure the all the grout lines won't leak.

I guess I should have them rip the wonderboard out but so far no one is sending an estimate, I always get the estimate out that night or next day by 12pm... Very odd group of guys... I hate asking favors of people I know, but might have to.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Inner10 said:


> So what's the problem with properly installed 6mil poly behind cement board? If I already had that installed I wouldn't bother ripping it down.


imho, if you're using plastic it should only be put behind the walls of a shower. In a shower, any water that gets through or condenses on the plastic would drain into the mudbed. In a tub situation, where would that water go?

Regarding the moisture sandwich theory, I think it would only apply to a Northern climate. But we are taking about water vapor if the waterproofing is done correctly.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> This won't win me too many friends with the backer board crowd, but oh well.
> Do this:
> 1. Remove and trash blunder board.
> 2. Have a qualified tile guy run Aquabar (or equivalent) water barrier paper straight to studs, overlapping a good 4-6".
> ...



It's a regional thing, isn't it? California, Texas, Pennsylvania and maybe a few others. 

What you imply is that ALL mud jobs are good. Perhaps only mud jobs done right last. Just like the cement board jobs. The installer is the difference.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

perm rating of felt paper = 5.6-8

perm rating of 6mil poly =.06


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

ArtisanRemod said:


> Cement board is not waterproof. Your quote "I wouldn't add another layer of waterproofing" is absolutely incorrect. You can discuss all you want, but my advice would be to keep your advice about tile work to yourself.


You should read up a little on the TCNA website where it clearly shows two approved methods. One using 6 mil poly behind concrete backer, the other with surface applier waterproofing. Certainly the surface applied is better but the former method is by no means unacceptable.

I encourage you to purchase the TCNA section B415-2013 if you are interested in learning how to properly construct a shower.



olzo55 said:


> imho, if you're using plastic it should only be put behind the walls of a shower. In a shower, any water that gets through or condenses on the plastic would drain into the mudbed. In a tub situation, where would that water go?
> 
> Regarding the moisture sandwich theory, I think it would only apply to a Northern climate. But we are taking about water vapor if the waterproofing is done correctly.


The plastic goes over the tile flange and excess moisture would drain into the tub. But as you said there is little water penetrating the wall assembly.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

I have a TCNA manual. You were assuming that the plastic under the cement board was done correctly, and your advice was that no other waterproofing was needed. If you still stand behind your advice then that's up to you.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

ArtisanRemod said:


> I have a TCNA manual. You were assuming that the plastic under the cement board was done correctly, and your advice was that no other waterproofing was needed. If you still stand behind your advice then that's up to you.


Correct if I assumed everything was built incorrectly I'd say buy a can of gas burn it down and start over.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

[QUOTE="Inner10;
The plastic goes over the tile flange and excess moisture would drain into the tub. But as you said there is little water penetrating the wall assembly.[/QUOTE]

How would it drain into the tub? That spot is usually caulked.

In a shower, it would drain into the mudbed.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Poly has to be mechanically attached to the studs. To me, this leaves too many areas of weakness. Also you have to prierce the plastic with the backer fasteners. I can't imagine how anyone could consider that a waterproof installation. While the TCNA May say its an acceptable practice, it isn't always the best practice.

But if you insist it staying, it would HAVE to be tied into the shower pan, overlapped properly and all of the fasteners waterproof. You would then still need to waterproof all fasteners used to install your substrate.


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

This all sounds so backwards . I don't understand the theory behind waterproofing behind the backerboard . This would allow for mold to grow in an ideal place .The fact that moisture is getting behind the backerboard to me means an installation failure . I think experience and common sense should prevail over any TCNA manuals . If there is gaps in the corners and joints use thinset and backerboard mesh tape to fill it in and then hydroban or redgard to waterproof it . Done !!


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

olzo55 said:


> It's a regional thing, isn't it? California, Texas, Pennsylvania and maybe a few others.
> 
> What you imply is that ALL mud jobs are good. Perhaps only mud jobs done right last. Just like the cement board jobs. The installer is the difference.


It's not a California thing that I know of.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Thought it was Bob. I must have been sniffing too many hot mopped shower pans.


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

olzo55 said:


> It's a regional thing, isn't it? California, Texas, Pennsylvania and maybe a few others.
> 
> What you imply is that ALL mud jobs are good. Perhaps only mud jobs done right last. Just like the cement board jobs. The installer is the difference.


 I didn't imply anything. I stated that the best way to do it is a mud job. I'm sure there are some hacks that F-up mud jobs too. But a properly done mud job is immeasurably better than a backer board job. Better bond, better rigidity, much more likely to be flat/plumb/level/square, less likely to have leak issues, etc.
I don't mean to offend anyone. There is, however a _best _way to do things. Tile on walls is always best done over a proper mortar bed, not some crap sheet material, like hardi-cracker, blunder board, or the rest. That stuff is for homeowners and others that really have no business doing tile work.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> I didn't imply anything. I stated that the best way to do it is a mud job. I'm sure there are some hacks that F-up mud jobs too. But a properly done mud job is immeasurably better than a backer board job. Better bond, better rigidity, much more likely to be flat/plumb/level/square, less likely to have leak issues, etc.
> I don't mean to offend anyone. There is, however a _best _way to do things. Tile on walls is always best done over a proper mortar bed, not some crap sheet material, like hardi-cracker, blunder board, or the rest. That stuff is for homeowners and others that really have no business doing tile work.


Immeasurably? From what data ass are you pulling that out of?


There is no measureable benefit wasting time with mudding the walls. I would understand if tiles were falling off of backer everyday but that simply isn't the case. Any time I have had to remove a tile that I adhere to backer, the backer came with the tile.

You are really here just to pick fights and hurl insults. That is the sign of someone who lacks true confidence in their abilities and methods. Just like my mom always said, bullies will attack you personally and it will never be of substance.

Unless your big mouth can produce actual factual data to support your claims, you are nothing more than a blow hard with not much to add to the conversation.

Let me guess you also never use drywall, but lathe and plaster. :blink:


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Immeasurably? From what data ass are you pulling that out of?
> 
> 
> There is no measureable benefit wasting time with mudding the walls. I would understand if tiles were falling off of backer everyday but that simply isn't the case. Any time I have had to remove a tile that I adhere to backer, the backer came with the tile.
> ...


I'm not interested in what your mom and dad said. But I do find it ironic that in a post where you flap your lips about bullies and personal attacks you resort to bullying and personal attacks. Maybe you should have taken mommy and daddy's advice. 
I didn't attack anyone personally. I stated that a properly done mud job is better. I explained why. If you dispute that it's better then you're the one who lacks confidence in his abilities.
Are you a professional tile man or just someone that does tile work on occasion?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

There's products available these days where a mud job is no longer needed. Just use a system like wedi board or kerdi board and you won't have to mess with mud jobs ever again and you will have a vastly more advanced system.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> I'm not interested in what your mom and dad said. I didn't attack anyone personally. I stated that a properly done mud job is better. I explained why. If you dispute that it's better then you're the one who lacks confidence in his abilities.
> Are you a professional tile man or just someone that does tile work on occasion?


Go piss in someone else's pool.

You stated that cement backer is for homeowners and others who should be installing tile. 

Anything else said to you will just result in ammo for your insults. Good luck with your short life span here at CT!


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You stated that cement backer is for homeowners and others who should be installing tile.


And it is. That's not to say that there are good tile guys who use it. I did tons of work with it when I lived in Phoenix. Hardi cracker, blunder board, dunce shield, and others. That's how I know it's inferior. Have you actually done mud jobs, or are you just speaking through your hurt feelings from my statements? 
Backer board is an alternative to floating everything. But to say it's just as good is laughable.
P.S. Why edit out the part of my quote about you being a hypocrite with respect to what your mom and dad always said?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> And it is. That's not to say that there are good tile guys who use it. I did tons of work with it when I lived in Phoenix. Hardi cracker, blunder board, dunce shield, and others. That's how I know it's inferior. Have you actually done mud jobs, or are you just speaking through your hurt feelings from my statements?
> Backer board is an alternative to floating everything. But to say it's just as good is laughable.


It's clear you like lying so to stop the arguments just supply us with the documentation showing how a mud job is superior than anything else on the market.


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

BCConstruction said:


> It's clear you like lying so to stop the arguments just supply us with the documentation showing how a mud job is superior than anything else on the market.


And you like deleting posts that show your flexible ethics.

You guys are hilarious. Let me guess....you allow and/or encourage these products to be used on your jobs, and when someone points out their inferiority you get butthurt.
I already said backer board is an alternative. If you're gonna stick to your guns and insist backer board is just as good as a mud job there's nothing left to say.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> And you like deleting posts that show your flexible ethics.
> 
> You guys are hilarious. Let me guess....you allow and/or encourage these products to be used on your jobs, and when someone points out their inferiority you get butthurt.


Funny that because when you delete a post it dont delete it. It would leave a blank space which there is not. 

No we are pros and know what does work and don't work. I don't use CBU because I use wedi but I don't bash CBU. just because you don't use it it don't make it inferior. 

But hey carry on using your mud jobs if you think they are better. no skin off any of our noses. But please don't make stuff up and at least back it up with documentation.


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

BCConstruction said:


> But hey carry on using your mud jobs if you think they are better. no skin off any of our noses. But please don't make stuff up and at least back it up with documentation.


If you need 'documentation' that a mud set job yields a better, longer lasting result than backer board then you're beyond reaching.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> If you need 'documentation' that a mud set job yields a better, longer lasting result than backer board then you're beyond reaching.


Better in what way? Again just because you think its better it don't make it better. People have moved on from mud jobs. You can keep using old Skool techniques and that's fine as there's nothing wrong with that but to suggest backer boards are for HO shows you don't really know the trade that well. Maybe try the other systems on the market before saying they ain't any good. By the way I have used nearly all these systems and many you prob gave not even heard off.


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

Back in the days when all tile setters used mud on the walls there was only a hand full of available colors to choose from . So I'm guessing you only use those colors because to use any newer colors would just be wrong .:whistling


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> And it is. That's not to say that there are good tile guys who use it. I did tons of work with it when I lived in Phoenix. Hardi cracker, blunder board, dunce shield, and others. That's how I know it's inferior. Have you actually done mud jobs, or are you just speaking through your hurt feelings from my statements?
> Backer board is an alternative to floating everything. But to say it's just as good is laughable.
> P.S. Why edit out the part of my quote about you being a hypocrite with respect to what your mom and dad always said?


Trust me, a nobody blow hard on the internet has no effect on my feelings. No matter how hard they try. In fact, I find you quite amusing. 

And what are you talking about? I didn't edit anything out. I quoted you word for word.

To answer your question, no, I have never floated mud on a wall. But one does not have to experience something to have an informed opinion about it. Like I said, unless you have some actual viable data that supports your claim, you are useless.

Walking around telling everyone that because you have done something, makes you right, is a joke. Professionals don't handle themselves in this manner. They provide a well constructed argument supporting their claim and back it up with more than playing word games and throwing insults.

My guess is that you will have your fun and then be on your way, just like so many before you. You come and go and contribute nothing substantial to the discussion.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> And you like deleting posts that show your flexible ethics.
> 
> You guys are hilarious. Let me guess....you allow and/or encourage these products to be used on your jobs, and when someone points out their inferiority you get butthurt.
> I already said backer board is an alternative. If you're gonna stick to your guns and insist backer board is just as good as a mud job there's nothing left to say.


You are pretty ignorant, so I'll explain it for ya again.

What I said was that there are no measurable advantages to install a mud substrate. I can make backer board dead level, plum and square. I waterproof with Aqua Defense, so it is 100% water tight. You can't get much better than that. As far as rigidity, why does it need to be more rigid than backer? I am not going to argue that it isn't more rigid, but why do I need it to be. Backer far exceeds any need for further rigidity.

You also said that backer was for HO and for those that have no business tiling, so which is it. Is is an alternative or is it for HO's and hacks?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I must be a hack because I tile on foam lol


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> I'm not interested in what your mom and dad said. *But I do find it ironic that in a post where you flap your lips about bullies and personal attacks you resort to bullying and personal attacks. Maybe you should have taken mommy and daddy's advice. *
> I didn't attack anyone personally. I stated that a properly done mud job is better. I explained why. If you dispute that it's better then you're the one who lacks confidence in his abilities.
> Are you a professional tile man or just someone that does tile work on occasion?





TNTSERVICES said:


> Trust me, a nobody blow hard on the internet has no effect on my feelings. No matter how hard they try. In fact, I find you quite amusing.
> 
> And what are you talking about? I didn't edit anything out. I quoted you word for word.
> 
> ...


I quoted the same post of mine that you quoted. The stuff you edited out is bolded and underlined. Word for word you say? Seems you've been caught in a lie to me.
Don't need to have done something to have an opinion, ehh? 
So you're providing a well constructed argument in the mud vs. backer board debate when you admit you've never done a mud set job? Throwing insults? Look at your own posts here guy. You're the one calling folks 'bullies' and 'nobody blow hards'. What insults did I throw at you?
Backer board is an alternative to mud work. It may be easier for some, and it may be cheaper. It is not better nor is it even equal to a properly done mud job. If that hurts your feelings I can't help that.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> I quoted the same post of mine that you quoted. The stuff you edited out is bolded and underlined. Word for word you say? Seems you've been caught in a lie to me.
> Don't need to have done something to have an opinion, ehh?
> So you're providing a well constructed argument in the mud vs. backer board debate when you admit you've never done a mud set job? Throwing insults? Look at your own posts here guy. You're the one calling folks 'bullies' and 'nobody blow hards'. What insults did I throw at you?
> Backer board is an alternative to mud work. It may be easier for some, and it may be cheaper. It is not better nor is it even equal to a properly done mud job. If that hurts your feelings I can't help that.


It shows you know nothing about products other than mud. Backer board shower systems can cost upwards of $1200 and avg about $1500 just for the backer board and pan so no they ain't cheaper but they are faster.


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

Eaglei said:


> Back in the days when all tile setters used mud on the walls there was only a hand full of available colors to choose from . So I'm guessing you only use those colors because to use any newer colors would just be wrong .:whistling


Good grief that's the lamest analogy I've heard all day. And I've been reading bccontractor and tntwhatever's posts.

Here's a little hint for you smart guy: Just because some new-fangled product comes out that makes even housewives feel like they can do tile work that doesn't make it equal to the tried and true methods.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> I quoted the same post of mine that you quoted. The stuff you edited out is bolded and underlined. Word for word you say? Seems you've been caught in a lie to me.
> Don't need to have done something to have an opinion, ehh?
> So you're providing a well constructed argument in the mud vs. backer board debate when you admit you've never done a mud set job? Throwing insults? Look at your own posts here guy. You're the one calling folks 'bullies' and 'nobody blow hards'. What insults did I throw at you?
> Backer board is an alternative to mud work. It may be easier for some, and it may be cheaper. It is not better nor is it even equal to a properly done mud job. If that hurts your feelings I can't help that.


No lie, you just edited it after I had quoted it but before I posted it. It happens all the time. Why would I lie about a post that everyone can see? 

Last edited by RKGunGunsBaba; Today at 07:50 PM.

It doesn't hurt my feelings. Why are you obsessed with my feelings?

I have stated that I can get backer just as level, plumb and square as mud and in a lot less time. The rigidity is a none issue.

And I said you started with hurling insults and that is all you are interested in. I have no problem mixing insults into a real conversation, but that's not all I have been doing.

So after I have provided my opinion that I can do all that you can with mud and do it cheaper and faster, how is your system superior?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> Good grief that's the lamest analogy I've heard all day. And I've been reading bccontractor and tntwhatever's posts.
> 
> Here's a little hint for you smart guy: Just because some new-fangled product comes out that makes even housewives feel like they can do tile work that doesn't make it equal to the tried and true methods.


But just because it is a tried and true methods doesn't make it better than the new method.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> You know nothing of my methods. Until you do your opinion as to what is better is entirely invalid.


You install green board, waterproofing paper, screen, first coat, install lathe strips for plumbing the second coat, second coat, pull the stips, float, blah blah blah....I know the method. So I guess that means my opinion is now valid


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

world llc said:


> No, not a union, c54 is the cali liscence requirement for tile. From what I have been told by a few c54 guys is that it is very dificult to pass. Un like here in NJ where all you need to do is call yourself a tiler...


Not difficult at all.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> Damn, that's a low blow. I realize you're all pissy because I question your "technique", but that's low.
> 
> You have yet to ask any questions.
> 
> ...


It didn't become retarded until you starting piping up.

And I am still waiting for your answer to why it is superior. How am I supposed to know if someone doesn't educate me. So far the items you listed can be accomplished with backer. There is nothing superior to your method. If you can't let go of an old out of date method and have been brainwashed in believing that your way is the best and that backer is for HO's and Hacks, then it is you that need to figure chit out, not me.

Land of fruits and nuts I tell ya! :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

world llc said:


> No, not a union, c54 is the cali liscence requirement for tile. From what I have been told by a few c54 guys is that it is very dificult to pass. Un like here in NJ where all you need to do is call yourself a tiler...


Not that different than union. Their state makes them jump through hoops and regulates them to death until they think the only true methods are their methods. Same mentality. My way is superior, I can't tell you why and unless you experience it, you will never understand, and then they storm off.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I bet he thinks hot mopping is superior as well.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

...


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

...


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CarpenterSFO said:


> It really doesn't matter to me what "the best" tiling method is. I use different materials and techniques in different situations - some old-school, some nu-skool. Productivity, training, and profitability requirements constantly push me toward newer ideas and systems. I expect the baths and showers I install to last for decades. Discussing "the best tile method" is a little like arguing that oil paintings are better than bronze sculptures.


You use the best tile method for your situation, always improving upon it as new technology emerges, but it doesn't matter what's the best method? I am confused. Unless we discuss what is the best practice and compare notes, how would anyone expand their knowledge base?

BTW, the discussion here was never what was the best method, but how mud substrate was superior to backer board and why those that use backer board were nothing more than HO's or Hacks. Someone comes on here and starts off like that has got to at least be held to the fence to back it up. 99% of the contractors on here use backer for the shower installations. In four years here I have never heard anyone spout such nonsense concerning tiling methods.

At least present your argument with data and facts to back it up. I am very open to listening to someone's argument on how there way is better, but when all you got is, this is the way I do it, you have nothing.


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You install green board


Green board? Damn son, you really are clueless huh?
Even if you were correct (you were not) just naming steps doesn't mean you can actually do any of it. 
You do it however you like. Use whatever "faster" or "just as good" method you like. Until you can do mud work you are nowhere near my equal in the tile business. 
Freakin' green board:laughing:


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> At least present your argument with data and facts to back it up. I am very open to listening to someone's argument on how there way is better, but when all you got is, this is the way I do it, you have nothing.


With no disrespect to the poster you quoted , get your nose out of his arse. He presented no facts as such. But since he didn't question your jack of all trades, master of nothing methods he's to be commended?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> Green board? Damn son, you really are clueless huh?
> Even if you were correct (you were not) just naming steps doesn't mean you can actually do any of it.
> You do it however you like. Use whatever "faster" or "just as good" method you like. Until you can do mud work you are nowhere near my equal in the tile business.
> Freakin' green board:laughing:


Wow, you don't know as much as you think. In fact I found a video of one of your cali boys doing just that. hmmm...







Here's what you said: "You know nothing of my methods. Until you do your opinion as to what is better is entirely invalid."

I showed you that I knew something of your methods. Now you are back to I have to do it in order to understand and be your equal.

I wouldn't want to move backwards in order to be your equal. You may not be union, but you sure as hell have their attitude. So either we do it your way, which you have yet to explain how it is superior or now we are not equal? Now I know you are a joke. 

And I thought that you were done and going to let me have the last word. Now who's the liar?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> With no disrespect to the poster you quoted , get your nose out of his arse. He presented no facts as such. But since he didn't question your jack of all trades, master of nothing methods he's to be commended?


Seeing that you are not interested in presenting any facts either, you really have no leg to stand on.

Any questions you had about my methods I answered. So he probably read them and was satisfied that I was right. There is nothing that you can do that's so special with mud that I can't do with backer. I know that it is upsetting your world, but when you get done crying about it and get some sleep you will feel much better. :laughing:


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

Until you show me video (that actually works) of you floating some walls you are but a hack. I could use your materials any day of the week. I choose not to as they are inferior. Can you use my methods? But you don't want too, right. 
And by the way, I answered your lame question very early on. You choose not to believe, rather to keep up the charade that your way is equal. Keep on thinking that. 
I'm more than willing to use new stuff. About 75% of my jobs grout with kerapoxy. A month ago I tried FusionPro. If something is an improvement I'll gladly use it. Backer board is a far cry from being equal to mud work, much less an improvement. 
I ain't workin' in the Midwest son. Your cost cutting, quality sacrificing methods won't cut it here. I work in high end homes, not housing tracts or production homes.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> Until you show me video (that actually works) of you floating some walls you are but a hack. I could use your materials any day of the week. I choose not to as they are inferior. Can you use my methods? But you don't want too, right.
> And by the way, I answered your lame question very early on. You choose not to believe, rather to keep up the charade that your way is equal. Keep on thinking that.
> I'm more than willing to use new stuff. About 75% of my jobs grout with kerapoxy. A month ago I tried FusionPro. If something is an improvement I'll gladly use it. Backer board is a far cry from being equal to mud work, much less an improvement.
> I ain't workin' in the Midwest son. Your cost cutting, quality sacrificing methods won't cut it here. I work in high end homes, not housing tracts or production homes.


Nice!


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

CarpenterSFO said:


> ...


You should've left your post up Sir. I especially liked the comparison of oil painting to bronze sculpture. Very apt analogy when you stop and ponder it. A decent artist can make a thing of beauty with either one. But the bronze (mud work) is gonna be a hell of a lot stronger and longer lasting. :thumbup: Much less likely to start cracking, chipping, and falling apart too!


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

rkgungunsbaba said:


> you should've left your post up sir. I especially liked the comparison of oil painting to bronze sculpture. Very apt analogy when you stop and ponder it. A decent artist can make a thing of beauty with either one. But the bronze (mud work) is gonna be a hell of a lot stronger and longer lasting. :thumbup: Much less likely to start cracking, chipping, and falling apart too!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

...


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

I dunno, but I've demo'ed a few full mud jobs.......man, what a biaatch!

Seems like those things will still be around when aliens are picking over our carcasses in 2513.

Not that it means all the other, more efficient methods are improper (that's just silly).

But, IMO, in a properly framed house, with proper waterproofing and a timeless, classic tile design......a mud job seems like it is the top-o-the-line.

That said, I'll be sticking to the "homeowner" methodologies.

DISCLAIMER: This post is in no way meant to condone, or further, any previous disagreements. Just an unsolicited opinion.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

It's a pretty tough to argue against a mud job for one simple reason, a time proven track record. For all we know in 20 years kerdi board will self destruct, or redguard will breakdown and turn into chewing gum. 

At the end of the day I think most systems will be torn out and rebuilt long before they reach the end of their useful lifespan, thus arguing about which one is better is a waste of time.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

These old /new method discussions never go well.

They haven't replaced concrete but today concrete has many formulas. Need it porous,flexible, set fast/set slow,heat resistant etc.. there's a new technology/formula to make it do things you couldn't do 30 years ago.

Space shuttle? Tile made to with stand 2,500* and stuck on an aluminum frame with a special RTV like glue. Plumbing? Pex and pvc versus galvy and copper.

I've ripped out cracked mud beds and perfect mortar walls. What of it?The weight of mortar and thickness of beds aren't being designed into the homes of today. 

Why are these methods just in certain places? Union strong,seismic or unstable ground? Do these areas need a thicker substrate to tile or politically necessary?

What it comes down to is cost, for most people/builders. Mortar walls are strong, no question. But cement board does what it's suppose to do when installed correctly and less costly. I've worked in some pretty expensive custom homes and it's spec for cbd.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Oh he's using the "you changed your post" crap on you now lol

What's clear is the new guy has never used any of the new systems. Well when I say new I mean systems made within the last 15 years. I bet his head would exploded putting tile on foam or tile over drywall. Like inner said 99.9% of the time the newer system are perfectly fine. It's not like they have to be in for more than 50+ years. The majority of showers are pulled out in under 20. I have pulled out 20+ year old showers where tile was stuck to plaster. That was one biatch to get that tile of there. Yet I wouldn't attempt that at all. Used to be pretty common in The UK to do this before all these new fangled HO systems come to the market. Mud jobs were pretty common to as most places were built with concrete block so it didnt take much time for a mud job to get completed. You won't ever see me doing a mud job anymore though and you won't often see it done in the UK anymore either. There's just not a good enough reason to use it over other systems.

But let me say there are places to use but I doubt I will get one of them places in my lifetime.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> It's a pretty tough to argue against a mud job for one simple reason, a time proven track record. For all we know in 20 years kerdi board will self destruct, or redguard will breakdown and turn into chewing gum.
> 
> At the end of the day I think most systems will be torn out and rebuilt long before they reach the end of their useful lifespan, thus arguing about which one is better is a waste of time.


I am not, and have not argued, that any method is better. What I have said is that there is nothing that you cannot do mud that you cannot accomplish with backer. And that there is no real benefit going with mud over CBU. Properly installed CBU can be plumb, level, square, watertight and rigid enough to support any tile on the market.

If anything, I am saying that CBU is already a time tested product and is nothing more than what drywall is to plaster.

The guy came in here pretty much calling contractor who used CBU a hack and in the end in fact called anyone who used it a hack.

"Until you show me video (that actually works) of you floating some walls you are but a hack."


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I just recently had two showers done with the kerdi system, and shulter drain. (don't know if I spelled that right )but I've always had full mud and lathe before that along with a hot mopped pan. The reason being is because it's, Tried N True. Isn't that somebodies company on this forum? I Really like the shulter pan on remodels vs. Hot mop when people are still living there, simply because of the tar smell is unforgiving for about 3 or 4 days with the Hot mop.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I just recently had two showers done with the kerdi system, and shulter drain. (don't know if I spelled that right )but I've always had full mud and lathe before that along with a hot mopped pan. The reason being is because it's, Tried N True. Isn't that somebodies company on this forum? I Really like the shulter pan on remodels vs. Hot mop when people are still living there, simply because of the tar smell is unforgiving for about 3 or 4 days with the Hot mop.


I don't like hot mop because your waterproofing does not pitch back to the drain. I have had plumbers inform me that I can even place the liner on the deck. I just shake my head.


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

tntservices said:


> i don't like hot mop because your waterproofing does not pitch back to the drain.


wtf? Then how does it drain completely?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I would have as guess as to him meaning that the tar removes the pre slope of the pan as its put in there. That's one if the major down sides of getting a hot mop pan to meet the code for the amount of pre slope. 

The very few I have come across as you don't see them in this area all drained poorly and had large amounts of sitting water and mold. They hadn't been installed long but I never got the jobs to tear them out so no idea if it was due to the tar removing the pre slope.


What always amazes me with CA though is they ban everything they can that is a so called health danger yet allow pots of molten tar to fill the house with highly toxic fumes that give you about 50forms of cancer! That's one messed up state.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am not, and have not argued, that any method is better. What I have said is that there is nothing that you cannot do mud that you cannot accomplish with backer. And that there is no real benefit going with mud over CBU. Properly installed CBU can be plumb, level, square, watertight and rigid enough to support any tile on the market.
> 
> If anything, I am saying that CBU is already a time tested product and is nothing more than what drywall is to plaster.
> 
> ...


Certainly there is a benefit, how would you make tight contours curves and unique designs with cbu?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Certainly there is a benefit, how would you make tight contours curves and unique designs with cbu?


Use wedi board.

I'm gonna build a cylindrical shower in the master on our next house. Looking forward to doing that.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> Use wedi board.
> 
> I'm gonna build a cylindrical shower in the master on our next house. Looking forward to doing that.


How tight can you bend wedi?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> How tight can you bend wedi?


Pretty tight. I have seen some cool stuff made from it. 

Here's some quick stuff I just pulled from google


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

BCConstruction said:


> I would have as guess as to him meaning that the tar removes the pre slope of the pan as its put in there. That's one if the major down sides of getting a hot mop pan to meet the code for the amount of pre slope.
> 
> The very few I have come across as you don't see them in this area all drained poorly and had large amounts of sitting water and mold. They hadn't been installed long but I never got the jobs to tear them out so no idea if it was due to the tar removing the pre slope.
> 
> ...


I think you may just have seen some poorly done pans. Our pans are inspected, as everything is in my over-regulated area. They are required to drain COMPLETELY in order to pass. 
And the 'fumes' are not toxic. It's smelly, that's for sure, but not toxic. I kinda like it. Smells like money to me.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

They may drain but how much standing water do they leave. I have seen tar applied numerous times and the stuff self levels better than SLC. So it would be really hard to make that stuff hold a slope without it removing the min required slope needed to completely drain the standing water. It's the most common issue I hear of about hot mop showers.

You also might want to educate your self on tar and its fumes. It's extremely carcinogenic. Even says so on the bags. There was talk of even banning it from being used to repair driveways it was so dangerous. Def not something I would want walked through my home with my kids in it. 

If you like type it in google hundreds of study's showing what firms of cancer it causes. I thin testicular cancer is one if its biggest causes.


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

BCConstruction said:


> They may drain but how much standing water do they leave. I have seen tar applied numerous times and the stuff self levels better than SLC. So it would be really hard to make that stuff hold a slope without it removing the min required slope needed to completely drain the standing water. It's the most common issue I hear of about hot mop showers.
> 
> You also might want to educate your self on tar and its fumes. It's extremely carcinogenic. Even says so on the bags. There was talk of even banning it from being used to repair driveways it was so dangerous. Def not something I would want walked through my home with my kids in it.
> 
> If you like type it in google hundreds of study's showing what firms of cancer it causes. I thin testicular cancer is one if its biggest causes.


The pans in showers I build are required to drain completely while the inspector is present. Usually the grate is removed, the seal is punctured, and the water begins to exit the drain. Once it gets below drain-top level the inspector will move onto the next shower (if there is one) and we'll start the same process. He'll then return to the 1st shower and make certain that the remaining water is exiting through the weaps. Before he leaves the site that water had better be damn near gone, if not completely gone. There may be a very small amount remaining--like a couple ounces at most. Pools of standing water will fail inspection and require the pan to be redone.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Inner10 said:


> Certainly there is a benefit, how would you make tight contours curves and unique designs with cbu?


Wouldn't argue that it has application, but having benefit doesn't make it superior.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> The pans in showers I build are required to drain completely while the inspector is present. Usually the grate is removed, the seal is punctured, and the water begins to exit the drain. Once it gets below drain-top level the inspector will move onto the next shower (if there is one) and we'll start the same process. He'll then return to the 1st shower and make certain that the remaining water is exiting through the weaps. Before he leaves the site that water had better be damn near gone, if not completely gone. There may be a very small amount remaining--like a couple ounces at most. Pools of standing water will fail inspection and require the pan to be redone.


A smooth tar pan would prob drain with less than 1/8" fall per ft. Add tile to that and it def won't fully drain. There's even pans on the market with true 1/4" per ft and they hold water after tile is installed. 

Don't get me wrong though. It's a system that works but there's better systems available that install quicker and are more reliable for slope which you can be tiling within 3-4hrs for the whole shower system.


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

BCConstruction said:


> A smooth tar pan would prob drain with less than 1/8" fall per ft. Add tile to that and it def won't fully drain. There's even pans on the market with true 1/4" per ft and they hold water after tile is installed.
> 
> Don't get me wrong though. It's a system that works but there's better systems available that install quicker and are more reliable for slope which you can be tiling within 3-4hrs for the whole shower system.


I don't know how shower pan guys do things in va. Here they pre-float the pan to form pitch. Then it's layers of felt/tar on top of pre-float. They drain completely before tile. Why do you think dry packing and tiling the pan will change that?
A good hot mopper can bang out a 4x4 pan in one hour. Fill it with cold water for a quick water test, then drain and I could theoretically float and set the pan in another hour or two.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

RKGunGunsBaba said:


> I don't know how shower pan guys do things in va. Here they pre-float the pan to form pitch. Then it's layers of felt/tar on top of pre-float. They drain completely before tile. Why do you think dry packing and tiling the pan will change that?
> A good hot mopper can bang out a pan in


So do you use an gravity defying tar? It self levels and you lose more slope the more layers of paper you apply. It's impossible for it not to self level unless you make it so thick it don't want to self level which defeats the purpose of tar to fill voids. 

It's works but its a slow and inconsistent. Not even taking into account the toxic issues it has.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

I'll bet a pallet of HardiBacker that RK is not self employed.


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## dfphoto (Oct 7, 2013)

Thanks for all the help, I believe the backing on the studs is the vapor barrier keeping both water vapor from the outside coming in and the inside going out. Inside meaning from under a house crawl space or other space. I'm assuming the order would be:
studs/vapor barrier 6mil or thinker or felt or building paper/wonderboard/redgard or mat/thinset/tile. The thinset is the key to the smooth straight corner I'm assuming.


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## RKGunGunsBaba (Oct 4, 2013)

BCConstruction said:


> So do you use an gravity defying tar? It self levels and you lose more slope the more layers of paper you apply. It's impossible for it not to self level unless you make it so thick it don't want to self level which defeats the purpose of tar to fill voids.
> 
> It's works but its a slow and inconsistent. Not even taking into account the toxic issues it has.


for Christ's sake guy. You may know a thing or two about vinyl and whatever other liner systems you use, but you know very little about a quality hot mop job. The pans have more than enough pitch to drain completely and rapidly. It is at least as fast as vinyl, though yes, it does stink. 
I've got 2 pans scheduled to be mopped tomorrow. If I thought for a second you were worth the effort I'd take before and after pictures to show you that the pitch remains and does not need gravity defying technology to do so. 



ArtisanRemod said:


> I'll bet a pallet of HardiBacker that RK is not self employed.


You're right, RK isn't employed at all. But being that RK, or Rena Kathleen is my 20 month old daughter I'll cut her some slack. GunGun, or Gunner is unemployed too, but he's 6 weeks old so he also gets a pass 
I am their Baba, and you'd lose that pallet of garbage because I am indeed self employed. Have been since 2000. It's before that, working for cheap, corner-cutting contractors that I was forced to use inferior backer board. 
Why you would even make such a bet is kinda silly. So when are you gonna deliver my pallet of garbage? Can I instead get equivalent value in spec mix or 2.5 metal lath?


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