# Biggest nightmare rewire



## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

OK Sparkos tell me about your biggest nightmare rewires on old houses with new panel upgrade, how much time and money did it require and afterwards what if anything would you do different


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

The closest I got to actually redoing a nightmare is one that had already been started, but not completed by the hack.

He spent a week 'upgrading' the old 100a service to 200a. Another 3 days installing 2 temp receps for construction.






























That's longer than I took to do the entire project!


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

I can't speak for myself, but my therapist has been working on rewiring me for years.

All attempts have failed inspection.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

I really like the look of that range hood and the stone. Is that travertine? Nice look.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> I really like the look of that range hood and the stone. Is that travertine? Nice look.



It was 3 years ago... I can't remember what it was.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> It was 3 years ago... I can't remember what it was.


 That house could really have used lookouts at least on the front gables. I not real crazy about flat gables, otherwise nice remodel


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Irishslave said:


> I really like the look of that range hood and the stone. Is that travertine? Nice look.


Looks like slate.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I am finishing up a remodel right now. The tough part for me is the HO are doing all other work themselves so i have to work around their schedule. They also decided not to redo the kitchen right now and one bedroom had already been refinished but not rewired. I am going to rewire the electric oven and the fridge since i have access to them from the basement but rewiring the finished bedroom is hell. I still have to fish wires for the receptacles but i was able to fish a wire into one wall for the smoke from the hallway. There was no light in the ceiling so i found cutting a strip of drywall in the closet ceiling gave me access from the light switch to the bay i want to mount the light in. This will also let me run a new circuit for a new closet light. I will just put the drywall back up and cover it with the new light :thumbsup:. Originally the room had switched receptacles so i will pull power from the receptacle for switch power.

Overall the job has been decent, i have been charging time/material for everything so it pays good. The only PITA so far is when the HO changes something or adds something after the room is finished. This home is all Pine V-joint so access becomes very limited. The last change was putting in an additional door to a room where there was not one so now i have to wire mold for the damn smoke. I hate wire mold!!!


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Irishslave said:


> OK Sparkos tell me about your biggest nightmare rewires on old houses with new panel upgrade, how much time and money did it require and afterwards what if anything would you do different




I can't say I've had any nightmares. I have certainly put more time in some than I anticipated. The reason I don't have nightmares is that I am from the scorched earth school of thought, rip it all out and start over.
I lost about 6 hours on a 200 amp service upgrade and relocate I did last week. I had to relocate everthing to a different side of the house because of clearance issues with the drop. At least I made some money and was not waiting for the phone to ring. It was a rental house owned by a dude that lives in your area. He is in Arnold, MO.

The guy did not get multiple bids for the work. He tol me "so and so" said your the best guy around for this stufff. Gawd, I love customers like that and will go the extra mile for them. I still priced it tight, even though I wasn't competing. Losing 6 hours ain't the end of the world.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> I can't say I've had any nightmares. I have certainly put more time in some than I anticipated. The reason I don't have nightmares is that I am from the scorched earth school of thought, rip it all out and start over.
> I lost about 6 hours on a 200 amp service upgrade and relocate I did last week. I had to relocate everthing to a different side of the house because of clearance issues with the drop. At least I made some money and was not waiting for the phone to ring. It was a rental house owned by a dude that lives in your area. He is in Arnold, MO.
> 
> The guy did not get multiple bids for the work. He tol me "so and so" said your the best guy around for this stufff. Gawd, I love customers like that and will go the extra mile for them. I still priced it tight, even though I wasn't competing. Losing 6 hours ain't the end of the world.


 Glad to see you back 007. Arnold is good area to pick up service work. It's Jefferson county so there is not quite as much competition as St Louis county, plus people down this way are starting to appreciate quality after years of ******* hacks


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Electrical nightmares are my specialty. Bring it on! And there's plenty of hack electrical wiring that needs a fixing out there too! The key to old work is understanding switch neutrals and how an electrical circuit works. Loose connections don't help much either.


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## nickangel (May 25, 2011)

I especially love it when they tie the ground to neutral.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Quote from 480 "He spent a week 'upgrading' the old 100a service to 200a. Another 3 days installing 2 temp receps for construction."
I could run 2 temp recepts from the panel in under an hour and I'm a Carpenter


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

I have some pictures to post of one but I need to get a new flash card first. It seems whoever wired the panel preferred to use the black wires on the neutral bar and his whites to the breakers. This leads to problems when someone wires the recepts the usual way


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Ok, I hate to admit to this,but............this happen way back when I first got started and needed the money. 

I got a referral for this couple that bought their aunts house which had a rental attached to it, on the other side of the garage. So basically, this is a really long ranch type house. 

The owner, with his father --- an old sheet rocker, had remodeled the house with new sheet rock(what a surprise) and had textured and painted the whole thing. 

The thing is, the aunt had a handyman, who over 25 years had done all the electrical in the house, the garage and the rental. Gee, guess what, nothing done to code. Red flat #1

So, I come in, and the first thing the owner says is: NO PERMITS. Ok, well that means we are not replacing the panel. Red flag #2

Second, he wants all the knob and tube wiring replaced. Hmmm, so this is after you and your dad tore the place down to the studs and replaced all the drywall. Red flat #3

So the trick is to add a sub-panel, cus the original panel is already filled to capacity. Red flag #4

This got to be the biggest PIB since it was summer, the attic had new insulation and things got pretty tight up there. 

I did replace as much of the knob and tube as I could. Ripped out a ton of not to code wiring, boxes, splices, etc. Still had a butt load of issues with none working circuits and so forth. 

To this day, I am afraid to go back and do a profit report on this job. Chances are I broke even at best. 

Lessons learned: 
1. Obey the red flags
2. If the owner says no permits - walk away quickly
3. Replacing knob and tube is a virtual total gut - with new panel, the starting base cost is 10K ----for a 1200sf one story house.
4. T and M is your pal --- at least on stuff like this


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

I have one more that stands out. 

This is a good reason not to post your company info and phone number on bulletin boards ----- my only excuse is that, again, this was some years back when I was getting my business up and running. 

The house was located in in the mountains, through a private gate, up a long dirt road, through an exclusive little community. Basically, the middle of absolute no where. 

You had a mother, daughter and grand daughter all living in this place which was about a 2 million dollar house at the time. The former owner, a corporate high tech lawyer, had done all of his own electrical work ---- supposedly with the help of the contractor that built the place. 

I was called on a stormy night cus the back up generator was making noise, but not working. So, with rain pouring down and about 45 minutes of driving, I got there. With no electricity and no back up, I couldn't see a whole lot. Since I hadn't worked on propane powered back up generators, much less the one they had which powered the whole house, I couldn't do much, plus nothing really stood out. 

I wrote up a conditional estimate to trouble shoot the system and map out the electrical in the house, because it had never been done and I figured I could locate the major problems and come up with some solutions. 

I got a deposit check --- the mother cried poverty the whole time, even though the daughter had a new BMW in the driveway and the granddaughter had a fairly new car too. I promised to come back the next day with my crew and we would figure things out. 

The next day we showed up ready to start work. Here is what I found: 
1. The owner had used 12awg wiring for everything. When he ran out of a color, he would wire nut another color(different) wire and continue on. 
2. There were a total of 5 service panels: One main and 4 subs. All wired in SERIES with 12awg (with an assortment of at least 8 different colored wiring. Wiring was from main lugs to main lugs, no separate breakers. 
3. The entire house was wired backwards (all outlets had the hot wired to the common side)
4. The crawl space was more than tall enough to stand in, but the previous owner had so many wires (both high and low voltage) going through mid air, it was like a giant spiders web (of colorful wires).
5. Still couldn't figure out the generator which had an automatic switch over panel --- which was making the noise and needed replacement. 

We were there for about 2 hours and once I got the grasp of the situation, I did the following: 
1. Told my guys to get in their truck and leave immediately
2. Wrote up a quick disclosure on my 3 part invoice that said: we were never there and there was no charge for any services
3. I gave the deposit check back to the mother and said I would get back to her with an estimate for fixing things. 

I did send them a letter a few days later saying that my insurance wouldn't cover me to work on their place (it was a lie, but they wanted me to work on the place and I needed an excuse to not come back). I told them they should contact an electrical contractor closer to them. 

I also said that if my insurance company could cover me, the cost to rewire the house and correct the panel and generator problem would start at a base cost of $12, 000. That shut them up. 

So many lessons learn on this, I'm not going to list them.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

cwatbay said:


> Ok, I hate to admit to this,but............this happen way back when I first got started and needed the money.
> 
> I got a referral for this couple that bought their aunts house which had a rental attached to it, on the other side of the garage. So basically, this is a really long ranch type house.
> 
> ...



When I see a huge handyman mess, there is just no way for me to put a price on fixing it. Where do you start and where do you stop? I can quote a price on EVRYTHING new.That is from the weatherhead on into the last receptacle. I have been able to assign a time/material value per opening and what the new service costs and add em up. I have been desperate for work and turned down piecemeal repairs to disasters.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't touch any electric.:no:

I have enough work with what I know how to do.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

I've been a Carpenter for most of my life, but I worked for an Electrical contractor for about a year once. I learned enough to know it wasn't for me 100% of the time. I hated the inspections and beyond residential apps there is just too much to learn and remember. Pulling long runs through EMT sucks too. I know enough about it to get myself in trouble


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## Redliz75 (Jun 23, 2011)

Irishslave said:


> I've been a Carpenter for most of my life, but I worked for an Electrical contractor for about a year once. I learned enough to know it wasn't for me 100% of the time. I hated the inspections and beyond residential apps there is just too much to learn and remember. Pulling long runs through EMT sucks too. I know enough about it to get myself in trouble



I hope you have a relationship with an area electrician?? I do mostly commercial, anything my employer has me do that is residential is new const.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Redliz75 said:


> I hope you have a relationship with an area electrician?? I do mostly commercial, anything my employer has me do that is residential is new const.


 Not really. The good ones are too expensive, and the rest are just too grouchy or they are union and scared to touch anything on the side. By the way, I see you are new here, welcome to the camp


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## Redliz75 (Jun 23, 2011)

Irishslave said:


> Not really. The good ones are too expensive, and the rest are just too grouchy or they are union and scared to touch anything on the side. By the way, I see you are new here, welcome to the camp




Thanks sweetie! You should really hook up with a local electrician you can count on. Old residential work can be confusing, I am seldom ever confronted by it. Almost everything I do is new commercial. It is my niche and I can outwork the guys. My employer has kept us going through this whole recession. Life has been good.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Redliz75 said:


> Thanks sweetie! You should really hook up with a local electrician you can count on. Old residential work can be confusing, I am seldom ever confronted by it. Almost everything I do is new commercial. It is my niche and I can outwork the guys. My employer has kept us going through this whole recession. Life has been good.


Congratulations on the steady work, about 30% of our union guys are dead in the water here. So you handle the 3 phase and the 277? What a gal!! You and 480 should build quite a rapport on this forum!


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