# Problem with sub with no contract signed



## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

kevjob said:


> how could it be? have you ever tested a gas line that was pre existing? well i have and every one leaks but i know enough to put that in my bid and contract of which i never received.


So as a plumber I should add $400 - $600 to the price I quote to the HO to replace their toilet because there "could be" flange damage. I'd never be able to install another toilet ever! No. You warn the HO ahead of time about certain possibilities that your experience tells you exist but you never price those "possibilities" in your bid. If you suspect that the gas test may fail, based on your experience with similarly aged homes, how can you possibly know whether there will be 1 leak or 20 before you test it and therefore how can you possibly include a # in your bid unless you figure on replacing the entire distribution system which would cost thousands and probably price you out of the work since certainly none of your competitors will have done this.

I don't think you even knew that the code official was even going to require a gas test until he told you.

Did the HVAC man connect any new gas appliance to the existing distribution system because I still don't see anything in your post that required any gas work?


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

I don't think you even knew that the code official was even going to require a gas test until he told you.

Really?  no he said state something in his bid about it ih wait i never got one. 

I can see everyone here is looking to fight so this ends my discussion about this


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

me thinks there is more to this story. from your original post, I'd side with the HVAC contractor. From your following posts, I'd side with you. But there are 3 sides to every story. But, just for the record, I don't particularly like GC's, so I'd probably side with the sub.


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

kevjob said:


> how do you know i didnt know? you are assuming an awful lot. and he can do gas lines in other cities i work in,


I don't know, you're right, but I'm not really assuming either. Maybe you're only guilty of poor sentence structure but you're original post reads as if you called for inspection, the inspector came out and looked at it and said something like "everything looks ok but before I sign off on it I will need to see a pressure test". Then you scrambled to get it done. In your subsequent posts you sound as if there was a gap of almost 3 weeks. In my area if I can't get an inspection/re-inspect within 3 days I'm calling the city engineer to let him know that all his inspectors are off smoking crack or something instead of inspecting. Maybe it's not this way everywhere but 3 weeks! Even if it is 3 weeks, why would you wait until the last minute to find out whether everything was ready? If the guy was'nt performing you had plenty of time fire him and hire someone else. I lose business all the time because I can't get to it that day. I don't know if I've ever had anyone willing to wait 3 weeks.


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

kevjob said:


> I don't think you even knew that the code official was even going to require a gas test until he told you.
> 
> Really?  no he said state something in his bid about it ih wait i never got one.
> 
> I can see everyone here is looking to fight so this ends my discussion about this


Don't go away mad, and try not to take anything personally. All I'm saying is don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. I just think you are dead wrong based on what you're original post said. We've all gotten things wrong. I'm wrong with far greater frequency than I would ever wish. I don't think you are an illegitimate contractor or a crook. How could I possibly make that determination based on one instance? I don't even know you. Maybe the guy was a jerk and maybe you are better off without him. I don't know. I just think your expectations of him based on the information you gave were way out of line. Had it been me, I would have charged you the $300.00 for the gas test, regardless of the outcome and then an additional amount for any repairs/replacement required to pass the gas test. If you did'nt think that was fair I would have wished you luck and invited you to find someone else.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

i am not mad but i dont appreciate being called names and implying i am trying to rip him off. he had three weeks because i allowed him to run the gas which is for a range in the basement because he had no work while i was demoing the kitchen. The inspection was set to be wednesday and he knew that but decided to wait until last minute to check his gas line which by the way he had to borrow every thing from me. I usually use my plumber but HVAC guy begged me to let him do it. I have beeen a GC for many years and before that was a journeyman plumber so i knew all along about the gas inspection i try to let my subs do their job with minimal intrusion. He asked me why do they inspect the whole line 

smells please dont assume anything about anyone until you have all the facts also i am wrong almost everyday but i am man enough to admit it and try to solve issues anf this guy has somewaht screwed me on other jobs i have given him. I know this is all a result of my trying to be a good guy and a business man but i cant help it if i see one my subs in trouble i try to help them out.

so there is the whole story i didnt have time to post the whole thing this am.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Perhaps you need to re-write the post Kevjob. It really was not flattering to yourself. I sense that you may not have communicated the situation as well as you could have.
If you were willing to pay then he should have worked with you.

I know in my business there are many times problems arise. I always try to work out a fair and equitable solution. sometimes it cost a few $$ but when customers and subs see you being fair you have a great relationship from then on.


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Kev....I'll tell ya something about all people and money...When it comes time to dish it out, other things cloud our balances lower......When it comes time to lap it up, other things cloud our judgement higher.....No one can see threw the clouds but the good business man See's the best.

Move the clouds and pay the man, but don't give in to the 300 unless he can justify.

Bob


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## [email protected] (Oct 1, 2005)

smellslike$tome said:


> P.S. guys like you are the reason I don't do anything without a written contract. In fact when a GC is involved in a remodel situation (I don't even do new work anymore) I require both the GC and the HO to sign the contract. The HO understands that in the event the GC doesn't pay for ANY REASON that they are responsible for any unpaid balance. I have no idea how that would stand up in court but after being burned by more than one "GC" it at least makes me feel better.


How are you getting GCs to sign your own contract let alone the owner. You are the sub to the GC who is contracted with the owner. Unless you are a prime on the project then you are contracting directly with the owner in which cause the GC and you have serperate contracts with the owner (each being a GC). I would think that your contract with the owner is void because that language already exists in the contract with the GC/HO. Thats why you put a lien on the property and when you are paid in full the lien release is executed. In any regards if you came to me and said I had to sign your contract or you wouldn't do the work I would find someone else.


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> How are you getting GCs to sign your own contract let alone the owner. You are the sub to the GC who is contracted with the owner. Unless you are a prime on the project then you are contracting directly with the owner in which cause the GC and you have serperate contracts with the owner (each being a GC). I would think that your contract with the owner is void because that language already exists in the contract with the GC/HO. Thats why you put a lien on the property and when you are paid in full the lien release is executed. In any regards if you came to me and said I had to sign your contract or you wouldn't do the work I would find someone else.


So you're entitled to the protection of a contract but I'm not?:no: This may be one reason I don't do very much work with GC's anymore. I just got sick of being squeezed every time I turned around. I also got sick of having to wait to get paid! I'm not you're bank! 
When I finish the work I expect to be paid, that day, before I leave the job site (this is far too inconvenient for nearly every GC on the planet). I won't accept any reason why I should have to wait 15, 30, 60 days or more to get paid. It's my opinion that if you don't manage your money well enough to have my check ready when I'm ready for my check, then there is something wrong with your financial health, which makes me nervous. This is never a problem with the HO which is one of the big reasons I moved into service work. CASH FLOW! I still do remodeling but at my price and according to the terms of MY CONTRACT which the GC and HO will sign or I won't do the work. I don't see what the big fuss is about anyway. Isn't it better for everyone to have it all written down. I won't remember 2 weeks from now what I told you. I think my contracts are pretty straight forward and detailed right down to the lavatory faucet manufacturer, model, and finish. That way if they decide later that they just don't want what they signed off on I say "Mr. XYZ that's perfectly fine I want you to have whatever you want. Why don't you take a look at these catalogs and these websites and when you make your selection let me know the manufacturer, model, and finish so I will know how to write up the upgrade change order". And nobody ever gets to come back to me and say "Well wait a minute, I thought we were getting such and such or so and so".:no: If you as a GC or HO are unwilling to sign my contract, I am automatically suspicious of you. It's in your best interest too because it cuts both ways. What if I say "yeah we will use this or that" and when the time comes I try to substitute "the other". 

The only reason I could concede that a GC would not want to sign my contract along with the HO is that the HO will see exactly what I am charging. That is only a problem if you haven't figured out how to justify your markup. I really don't know what the average GC markup would be. I've heard 30% but really have no idea and really don't care. If you want to mark it up 100% or 1000% and you can make the customer happy with it I say go for it. 

That doing business on a handshake business just doesn't cut it with me. I've been stolen from by more than one crooked GC! :furious:

P.S. When the GC is involved, the only real reason I have the HO sign the contract is that I want their agreement in advance that if their GC turns out to be a slug that they understand that they are liable for payment to me. I don't want a big hassle with HO saying "I paid the GC" because you know what, I'm sorry but the GC didn't pay me so that means you have to. I just want that possibility on their radar before I start work.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

copusbuilder said:


> Perhaps you need to re-write the post Kevjob. It really was not flattering to yourself. I sense that you may not have communicated the situation as well as you could have.
> If you were willing to pay then he should have worked with you.
> 
> I think we both were ready for different paths I like to give 100% to each customer because I think customer service is super important and equally are my subs. I try to work with people who have the same view me so no head butting. My HVAC guy would tell me what he thought was the code and never once was he right i always had to correct him and i only know it because i have his code book as well.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Glasshousebltr said:


> Kev....I'll tell ya something about all people and money...When it comes time to dish it out, other things cloud our balances lower......When it comes time to lap it up, other things cloud our judgement higher.....No one can see threw the clouds but the good business man See's the best.
> 
> Move the clouds and pay the man, but don't give in to the 300 unless he can justify.
> 
> Bob



well spoken thanks:thumbsup:


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

smellslike$tome said:


> That doing business on a handshake business just doesn't cut it with me. I've been stolen from by more than one crooked GC! :furious:


Sounds like you have worked for some real winners. I would take exception to a lot of statements in your post, but to what point? If I hire the sub, and they went to the HO with a contract, they would be off the job site as soon as I found out...that is the way it would be. If I were a slug and didn't pay, they have the recourse of a lien to use. I prefer a handshake over a hostile approach and the assumption all GC's are rip off artists...That is a BS statement if I ever heard one. 

It seems more and more, there is getting to be a "blame the GC" movement in many of the posts....I don't know how most feel about this, but were are pretty up front here...straight shooting. If a sub has a problem with me, he is not required to work for me nor am I bound by law to use him. My subs get paid when they hand me an invoice, and in return, I expect them to be there when they agree to...really simple.


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## Peladu (Jan 8, 2006)

joasis said:


> It seems more and more, there is getting to be a "blame the GC" movement in many of the posts....I don't know how most feel about this, but were are pretty up front here...straight shooting. If a sub has a problem with me, he is not required to work for me nor am I bound by law to use him. My subs get paid when they hand me an invoice, and in return, I expect them to be there when they agree to...really simple.


Right on! I can't agree with you more.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

smellslike$tome said:


> So you're entitled to the protection of a contract but I'm not?:no: This may be one reason I don't do very much work with GC's anymore. I just got sick of being squeezed every time I turned around. I also got sick of having to wait to get paid! I'm not you're bank!
> When I finish the work I expect to be paid, that day, before I leave the job site (this is far too inconvenient for nearly every GC on the planet). I won't accept any reason why I should have to wait 15, 30, 60 days or more to get paid. It's my opinion that if you don't manage your money well enough to have my check ready when I'm ready for my check, then there is something wrong with your financial health, which makes me nervous. This is never a problem with the HO which is one of the big reasons I moved into service work. CASH FLOW! I still do remodeling but at my price and according to the terms of MY CONTRACT which the GC and HO will sign or I won't do the work. I don't see what the big fuss is about anyway. Isn't it better for everyone to have it all written down. I won't remember 2 weeks from now what I told you. I think my contracts are pretty straight forward and detailed right down to the lavatory faucet manufacturer, model, and finish. That way if they decide later that they just don't want what they signed off on I say "Mr. XYZ that's perfectly fine I want you to have whatever you want. Why don't you take a look at these catalogs and these websites and when you make your selection let me know the manufacturer, model, and finish so I will know how to write up the upgrade change order". And nobody ever gets to come back to me and say "Well wait a minute, I thought we were getting such and such or so and so".:no: If you as a GC or HO are unwilling to sign my contract, I am automatically suspicious of you. It's in your best interest too because it cuts both ways. What if I say "yeah we will use this or that" and when the time comes I try to substitute "the other".
> 
> The only reason I could concede that a GC would not want to sign my contract along with the HO is that the HO will see exactly what I am charging. That is only a problem if you haven't figured out how to justify your markup. I really don't know what the average GC markup would be. I've heard 30% but really have no idea and really don't care. If you want to mark it up 100% or 1000% and you can make the customer happy with it I say go for it.
> ...


Man, you need an anger management course:thumbsup: 

I'm sure they are lining up for your services and will do whatever you ask???????? I am willing to bet that any customer approached by a sub looking for them to sign a contract with them as well as the general will tell you to f-off...or maybe they just make em smarter here in Texas


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## smellslike$tome (Jan 22, 2006)

joasis said:


> Sounds like you have worked for some real winners. I would take exception to a lot of statements in your post, but to what point? If I hire the sub, and they went to the HO with a contract, they would be off the job site as soon as I found out...that is the way it would be. If I were a slug and didn't pay, they have the recourse of a lien to use. I prefer a handshake over a hostile approach and the assumption all GC's are rip off artists...That is a BS statement if I ever heard one.
> 
> It seems more and more, there is getting to be a "blame the GC" movement in many of the posts....I don't know how most feel about this, but were are pretty up front here...straight shooting. If a sub has a problem with me, he is not required to work for me nor am I bound by law to use him. My subs get paid when they hand me an invoice, and in return, I expect them to be there when they agree to...really simple.


Let me clarify because I did'nt mean to leave anyone with the impression that I think all GC's are "rip off artists". I certainly do not think this, the problem is that I can't look at you and listen to what you say and know whether you are or not. 

As for sneaking behind a GC's back to the HO, this is not something I do either. When this situation arises, It is all done through the GC. This is providing of course that I am initially contacted by the GC. I am currently working on a bathroom addition in which the HO is one of my oldest clients. In this case I was initially contacted by the HO and so I was under no obligation to the GC even though he is handling the rest of the project. Even so I was not unwilling to work under the GC (made no real difference to me) but because I was concerned about the GC telling my client that he had to use his plumbing contractor, I elected to present my contract directly to my client as well as the GC, and I did'nt concern myself with how the GC might feel about it.

I prefer to deal directly with the customer because I don't believe, generally, that the GC has my interests at heart. That's ok, I guess it's perfectly natural, but what he doesn't understand is that he's usually cutting his own throat. The GC usually wants to stay in his comfort zone and only do what he always does. This usually means Delta faucets (I'm so sick of Delta I could puke!) and American Standard or Kohler toilets (neither of which are able to hold a candle against Toto). When it's all said and done I will give the customer what he wants but when the GC is in complete control I don't even get the opportunity to advise the client about his options. I'm going to make sure, if I get the chance, that he knows that for the same money there are better quality faucets than Delta, I'm also going to let him look at some beautiful $700.00 plus faucets. I'll give him the $380.00 builders special toilet if that's what he wants but I'm also going to let him know that he probably won't like it after he has to plunge it for the 50th time and that in the long run he will be much happier with the $600.00 - $1800.00 Toto that he will never have to flush more than once. Some of you are scoffing right now thinking no one is going to pay $1800.00 for a toilet. How do you know? Does it cost you anything extra to offer it to them? Whatever your markup is, will you make more on the $275.00 faucet or the $700.00 faucet. The $380.00 builders special toilet or the $1800.00 super fine premier Toto toilet.

So no, I don't particularly like going through GC's because I've found that even the honest ones (which most of them are) are short sighted and limit my income. But if a GC is willing to accept my contractual terms and brings me on board a project I will not go behind his back even if approached by the HO. However if the client is already one of mine then I will go around him without hesitation.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

kevjob said:


> my response is as soon as you touch it you own it.
> 
> 
> He proceeds to give me some crap and tells me he willget to it when he can . My reply is b.s. fix it now or dont come back! He leaves so i call my plumber and offer 500.00 to fix it so i can pass and stay on schedule. So we are there till 9pm one night then a couple more hours the next day lighting pilot lights etc.. Hvac guy never calls me to see what happened. Today i get a billl for 300.00 more than his original price. The kicker is he never had me sign a contract so i want to give him 500.00 1/2 the original estimate so what should i do?



You mean this was an existing line that failed?? 


You need to pay the man what he originally asked for AND the additional $300. If anything, you owe him that for being such a hothead to him. And then apologize to him.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

kevjob said:


> yeah meaning he should have known there might be issues with the existing gas line


Actually, YOU are the GC. It is not a subcontractor's job to do anything else besides perform their trade.

Nothing wrong with looking up to sub for advice --- but everything comes down to you, whether your fault, his fault, the cat's fault.

But the main thing is, you gotta pay the man. IN FULL


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