# the uselessness of general contractors on..



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> My two best bosses were paper boys.
> 
> One was a hell of a mentor, and remains the biggest show in town for high end custom remodels. He has never had bags on, he is a business man, a very good one. If it wasnt for his example I would be in a much different model.
> 
> ...


I have no real problem with paper contractors, so long as they do the paper work, I know it's not nothing, i also doubt they made 60% of each of their 11 guys on each job


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> I have no real problem with paper contractors, so long as they do the paper work, I know it's not nothing, i also doubt they made 60% of each of their 11 guys on each job


No, he didnt. He was hourly. Pretty good model, not sure how he got work though.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> I have no real problem with paper contractors, so long as they do the paper work, I know it's not nothing, i also doubt they made 60% of each of their 11 guys on each job


Does it really matter what they make? What should only matter to you is you get what you bid HIS work for. What should only matter to you is you were supplied with everything you need to do your job and was paid as agreed. Who cares if he makes 10 times as much as you did doing his work. If you agree to a price that tells me your happy with what you get. It doesn't go like this, "Im happy with what I get, but unhappy with what you get".


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Yeah i know guys like that...they're true salesmen. I knew a guy who worked at an electronics store for commission. He'd work 2 or 3 days a week, 5 or 6 hours a day and bring home $2k a week. Someone would come in for a patch cord and leave with a 50" TV (that was really big back then) and then call him that night to see if he wanted to go out for drinks.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> Does it really matter what they make? What should only matter to you is you get what you bid HIS work for. What should only matter to you is you were supplied with everything you need to do your job and was paid as agreed. Who cares if he makes 10 times as much as you did doing his work. If you agree to a price that tells me your happy with what you get. It doesn't go like this, "Im happy with what I get, but unhappy with what you get".


I don't like unethical people. it is unethical to me to charge someone for doing nothing. That is it..plain and simple.

It doesn't bother me that he's making more money, it bothers me that he's unethical.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> I don't like unethical people. it is unethical to me to charge someone for doing nothing. That is it..plain and simple. It doesn't bother me that he's making more money, it bothers me that he's unethical.


 Your definition of unethical is different then others. If I charge a price and someone agrees, does the amount I make determine its ethicality? So is Apple computers unethical because they may be the richest company in the world? If the amount of profit determines ethicality, who gets to make the decision on how much? You?


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> Does it really matter what they make? What should only matter to you is you get what you bid HIS work for. What should only matter to you is you were supplied with everything you need to do your job and was paid as agreed. Who cares if he makes 10 times as much as you did doing his work. If you agree to a price that tells me your happy with what you get. It doesn't go like this, "Im happy with what I get, but unhappy with what you get".


This has absofukkinlutly nothing to do with his profit,margin, etc... just on how he wants to earn it. me lying for the SOB.
Even if I didn't know the guy I never would of agreed.

There is nothing to gain and everything to lose.

I have "no fuks to give" anymore


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Obviously what's unethical for me is totally fine to others, it's part of free choice. If you're wondering..yes I think that the amount of money that some CEO's make is unethical, but that's me. You are free the make your own determinations just as Bruno is free to make his...and his determination of that GC was that he was a scum bag and he didn't want to work for him. His choice, 

some around here don't seem to like his choice. Their choice as well


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

There is a line where I would feel like a scum bag to mark something up that high. But that line varys for everyone, and doesn't exist to some.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I think as a business owner I'm supposed to make as much money as I can and still get the job. It's business 101. The free market will determine if it's too high. It would be unethical if someone needed a drink of water or would die and I was the keeper of the only water and charged them for it. There's a huge difference when someone isn't forced to say yes. It's the beauty of capitalism. If my price is too high say no. Plain and simple.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

This thread is retarded.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I think as a business owner I'm supposed to make as much money as I can and still get the job. It's business 101. The free market will determine if it's too high. It would be unethical if someone needed a drink of water or would die and I was the keeper of the only water and charged them for it. There's a huge difference when someone isn't forced to say yes. It's the beauty of capitalism. If my price is too high say no. Plain and simple.


Example:

A guy calls and asks for an addition, I know him though networking. He doesn't know construction costs and I know he isnt getting other bids. For me, im not comfortable doubling my margin on that job because he trusts me. Thats chitty. 

Elderly folks who need something done and doesnt keep up with costs. Im not cool with doubling my margin.

I am all for making as much as possible, my best margins are on jobs others don t want or cant do. 

I believe in the free market and getting more for being better than the competition, or more efficient or a better salesman or whatever. But that doesnt mean gouge the chit out people who don't know better.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Example:
> 
> A guy calls and asks for an addition, I know him though networking. He doesn't know construction costs and I know he isnt getting other bids. For me, im not comfortable doubling my margin on that job because he trusts me. Thats chitty.
> 
> ...


In your first example the guy called you because he trusted you.

Extremely difficult reputation to get & maintain.

But when you do it is very satisfying & rewarding...:thumbsup:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> I think as a business owner I'm supposed to make as much money as I can and still get the job. It's business 101. The free market will determine if it's too high. It would be unethical if someone needed a drink of water or would die and I was the keeper of the only water and charged them for it. There's a huge difference when someone isn't forced to say yes. It's the beauty of capitalism. If my price is too high say no. Plain and simple.


Your ethics, not mine. I charge what I need to to pay myself and keep my business going and growing. As an example

I just bid a job, I had a number worked out, the folks told me they got a quote from someone else, it was more than 2x my number, I gave them the same price i would have if they hadn't said anything. I'll make good money and they'll get a good job....same materials, same everything. I could have charged 2x - $500 and probably gotten the job, but my ethics won't allow me to do that. They got the other price from a GC who was already doing work at their house...I'd be willing to bet he got a price from some other bricklayer and doubled it. To me that is unethical.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Mark up is subjective. 

Lets use flooring as an example. 

If a good installer with tools and a helper bids a job with HIS overhead, labor , materials through his supplier, and a good profit margin he is likely to be quite a bit less than a flooring store that has salespeople, a showroom and warehouse. 

A lot of people want a showroom and salesperson. Same for a builder with an office staff, designer, selections manager and superintendent(s). He is likely to have a higher mark up than someone who doesn't. Some people want that though.

I dont see anything wrong with a guy working out of his truck charging what a floor store is charging, either. Free market. 

I am just saying I wouldn't take advantage of anyone. 

I am also saying some guys see a huge mark up from their competitors and say they are gouging ,when in reality their overhead is just higher. 

Window replacement companies are a good example.


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## RandyB1986 (Jan 2, 2009)

EricBrancard said:


> When it comes to plumbing and electrical work, unless you have the licensing for it, you really aren't supposed to be doing it.


I appreciate your concerns but Indiana does not require a license at the state level...and even in the counties that do require it they allow this: A person not licensed under this article may, however, accomplish electrical work in carrying out ordinary maintenance and repair if such work is accomplished by the person in the regular course of his sole, full-time employment.

If I am having a service changed I will sub it out....but I am not going to call a sparky every time a wire needs moved. You got to know this stuff or you're not a GC, you're a pimp.

When you depend on everyone else is when you will get hung out.....


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## MKnAs Dad (Mar 20, 2011)

IMHO,the only one who did anything unethical was the OP. The HO called the GC who bid this out, and after he had you out to get a definite amount, you went behind his back and took the job from him. /doesn't matter that you were doing it for the same price. He brought you onto the job, you did the job, he was shut out. The HO did not call you for the bid, they called him.
If they accepted his bid at his price, that is their choice. 
If you do the type of work that others on here say you do, I would hate to get a name among other GC's that you do want to do work for.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

RandyB1986 said:


> I appreciate your concerns but Indiana does not require a license at the state level...and even in the counties that do require it they allow this: A person not licensed under this article may, however, accomplish electrical work in carrying out ordinary maintenance and repair if such work is accomplished by the person in the regular course of his sole, full-time employment.
> 
> If I am having a service changed I will sub it out....but I am not going to call a sparky every time a wire needs moved. You got to know this stuff or you're not a GC, you're a pimp.
> 
> When you depend on everyone else is when you will get hung out.....


Well, I AM a GC :thumbsup: and I do call my electrician to move a plug. It sucks, but its the law. In Texas, you do your own electrical, plumbing and HVAC unlicensed, you are a hack. If I was in Indiana, I'd move the plug :thumbsup:


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

MKnAs Dad said:


> IMHO,the only one who did anything unethical was the OP. The HO called the GC who bid this out, and after he had you out to get a definite amount, you went behind his back and took the job from him. /doesn't matter that you were doing it for the same price. He brought you onto the job, you did the job, he was shut out. The HO did not call you for the bid, they called him.
> If they accepted his bid at his price, that is their choice.
> If you do the type of work that others on here say you do, I would hate to get a name among other GC's that you do want to do work for.


do yous have your subs lye for your profit margin? if yes then your right,
and I'm a hack


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

In Grant County, Indiana, most every contractor does his own electrical and plumbing, unless it's a big job and he doesn't want to. We have one inspector in the county, and nobody checks to see if you are licensed to do this or that. Is it right? Probably not, but that's how it is here.

For awhile you could get your plumbers license without any work experience. They taught you how to pass the test and bingo, you're a plumber. There are a couple licensed plumbers here that do some real hack work.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Your ethics, not mine. I charge what I need to to pay myself and keep my business going and growing. As an example
> 
> I just bid a job, I had a number worked out, the folks told me they got a quote from someone else, it was more than 2x my number, I gave them the same price i would have if they hadn't said anything. I'll make good money and they'll get a good job....same materials, same everything. I could have charged 2x - $500 and probably gotten the job, but my ethics won't allow me to do that. They got the other price from a GC who was already doing work at their house...I'd be willing to bet he got a price from some other bricklayer and doubled it. To me that is unethical.


I agree on a personal level, but not necessarily a business level. To me its bad business to do what you are suggesting the other guy did, you will be thought of as a gouger before long. But, its his business.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

RandyB1986 said:


> I appreciate your concerns but Indiana does not require a license at the state level...and even in the counties that do require it they allow this: A person not licensed under this article may, however, accomplish electrical work in carrying out ordinary maintenance and repair if such work is accomplished by the person in the regular course of his sole, full-time employment.
> 
> If I am having a service changed I will sub it out....but I am not going to call a sparky every time a wire needs moved. You got to know this stuff or you're not a GC, you're a pimp.
> 
> When you depend on everyone else is when you will get hung out.....












I laid out the back splash for the new oak cabinets we are about to install, the plug on the right is barely in the back splash, and would look bad. 

State law requires me call a sparky. I did. 

If I could of just took it loose from the stud and added a block with out moving wires I would have. Not possible in this situation. My electrician got an easy gig.


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## MKnAs Dad (Mar 20, 2011)

brunothedog said:


> do yous have your subs lye for your profit margin? if yes then your right,
> and I'm a hack


Never said you were a hack, but what you did was unethical, IMO. Would I ask you to lie about what you are charging? No. I would expect someone who is a subcontractor for me to have enough sense to not tell the HO anything about a price. A simple "Now that I have seen the scope of the work, let me crunch my numbers and get you a price for this."
Sitting around with the HO, drinking with the HO is a big no no. And according to you, you are the one to start bashing the GC, not the HO.

"after he leaves the old geezer pulls out a bottle of grappa(901 prima uva)
and we start the bulshìtting.
i ask him wtf with that guy and he saids its his wifes nephew.
i ask him why doesn't he do and his reply was, with all the money i have,"

Hack? No. Did you do a douche bag, unethical act? Absolutely.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Example: A guy calls and asks for an addition, I know him though networking. He doesn't know construction costs and I know he isnt getting other bids. For me, im not comfortable doubling my margin on that job because he trusts me. Thats chitty. Elderly folks who need something done and doesnt keep up with costs. Im not cool with doubling my margin. I am all for making as much as possible, my best margins are on jobs others don t want or cant do. I believe in the free market and getting more for being better than the competition, or more efficient or a better salesman or whatever. But that doesnt mean gouge the chit out people who don't know better.


There is always an exception especially with an elderly person. However, if I'm the guy calling you getting a price I'm going to trust you unless the price sounds too high, then I'm going to check your price. That is my responsibility. It never works that way for me. I have people that trust me who I give great prices too, they still say it sounds high. Simply put because they don't have a clue what it takes to do the job. I bid jobs by what I think its worth for me to do it. I've always said if my customer isn't crying just a little about the price I'm probably too low. Not all cry but some do.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> There is always an exception especially with an elderly person. However, if I'm the guy calling you getting a price I'm going to trust you unless the price sounds too high, then I'm going to check your price. That is my responsibility. It never works that way for me. I have people that trust me who I give great prices too, they still say it sounds high. Simply put because they don't have a clue what it takes to do the job. I bid jobs by what I think its worth for me to do it. I've always said if my customer isn't crying just a little about the price I'm probably too low. Not all cry but some do.


Almost all cry about my prices :laughing:

It is what it is. Just saying there is a line for me.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I am so useless I have what is essentially a pro-bono job we are doing right now for a handicapped widow of a decorated Vietnam vet. Her thanks is like brewing coffee with monster for me. Really gets my juices flowing!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Almost all cry about my prices :laughing: It is what it is. Just saying there is a line for me.


 I've been in business long enough to read people, I bid a job for 30k they cry because they think that's what they're suppose to do. They think they can't make it sound like there happy with that. I could bid the job for 15k they would still cry. People like to think they're great at negotiating a price, especially the young 35 to 40 year olds who think they have something to prove. This age group is at a place in life where they are just beginning to make money and there ego reflects it. Not all but some.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

I've been thinking a lot about this thread today and I think I have hit on the underlying issue that had me hooked. 

It's the sense of entitlement that a good portion of our society seems to have. 

Bare with me. The nephew GC feels he is entitled to a 60% mark up for this single trade job. That is what we know. We don't know the why. Maybe his aunt and uncle treated him poorly coming up, maybe he lost money working for them in the past. Doesn't matter the reason. But he does feel he is entitled to it. 

Now enter my judgements. I say there is not a reason he can come up with where I can agree with it. He could write a book and I would take issue with each reason. 

So with any relationship there are deal killers. This lives in that group for me. And this is where I keep my power in the situation. I would just decline to be associated with this type of person. 

I have not had a similar situation arise where an owner calls me to cut out a GC, but I'd like to think if it does I would call the GC to tell him to crap in his hat. Then call the owner and explain that I really don't want to be in the middle of a family issue. He might be able to talk me into the job, not sure. That part might be difficult. 

But people that feel entitled to things they have done nothing to earn is a hot button for me and this story activates it.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

RandyB1986 said:


> If I am having a service changed I will sub it out....but I am not going to call a sparky every time a wire needs moved. You got to know this stuff or you're not a GC, you're a pimp.
> 
> When you depend on everyone else is when you will get hung out.....


A lot of us do know this stuff. But like Jaws and I said, we can't legally perform certain tasks even if we have the knowledge and ability. So, we depend on the subcontractors we have built relationships with to perform the type of work they have the licensing and thousands upon thousands of hours doing. 

That's not being a pimp, that's being a responsible GC/Business person.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> A lot of us do know this stuff. But like Jaws and I said, we can't legally perform certain tasks even if we have the knowledge and ability. So, we depend on the subcontractors we have built relationships with to perform the type of work they have the licensing and thousands upon thousands of hours doing.
> 
> That's not being a pimp, that's being a responsible GC/Business person.


Out of thanks.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Gus Dering said:


> I've been thinking a lot about this thread today and I think I have hit on the underlying issue that had me hooked.
> 
> It's the sense of entitlement that a good portion of our society seems to have.
> 
> ...


Very well said


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I am so useless I have what is essentially a pro-bono job we are doing right now for a handicapped widow of a decorated Vietnam vet. Her thanks is like brewing coffee with monster for me. Really gets my juices flowing!


:thumbsup: Good for you man. Those are the kinds of projects that make you want to go all out skill wise regardless that is pro-bono.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

*Is it unethical, in a free enterprize economy, to overcharge *(let's just define the guys mark-up as a overcharge relative to the normal market) *when the other party is ignorent*.... or the other party is ignorent by trusting a family member.??

Just curious.....:whistling


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> *Is it unethical, in a free enterprize economy, to overcharge *(let's just define the guys mark-up as a overcharge relative to the normal market) *when the other party is ignorent*.... or the other party is ignorent by trusting a family member.??
> 
> Just curious.....:whistling


Unethical?....Yes

Illegal?...Not necessarily.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

to my mind it is unethical to overcharge. Period. What is overcharging to some is undercharging to others. everyones moral compass points different ways at different times


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Warren said:


> Unethical?....Yes Illegal?...Not necessarily.


Doesn't this depend on what your building, I mean if your building someone a "need" like a kitchen that was destroyed by a fire, or a dream deck so they can suntan on at their Malibu home. I'll bet you guys that think its unethical to charge a high price for the kitchen are perfectly fine with charging every dime you can get for the Malibu home sun deck.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Doesn't this depend on what your building, I mean if your building someone a "need" like a kitchen that was destroyed by a fire, or a dream deck so they can suntan on at their Malibu home. I'll bet you guys that think its unethical to charge a high price for the kitchen are perfectly fine with charging every dime you can get for the Malibu home sun deck.


Like I said, I dont think in terms of over charging. I just dont gouge people.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Charge whatever you want, doesn't effect me. i don't do business with you nor is it likely that I will ever hire you


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Jaws said:


> Out of thanks.


Oh No! And it's almost Thanksgiving! Hope CT gives you some more thanks to hand out before then!:laughing:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Charge whatever you want, doesn't effect me. i don't do business with you nor is it likely that I will ever hire you


Who are you talking to? Mike?

What makes you think he wouldn't be a good contractor? 

We are not employees. No one sets our prices. 

Are you saying you havent doubled a mark up because you were busy? Or the job was a pain in the azz? Or because the homeowner pissed you off?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

mudpad said:


> Oh No! And it's almost Thanksgiving! Hope CT gives you some more thanks to hand out before then!:laughing:


I run out all the time :laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

...


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I was talking to Calidecks. 

I'm not saying he isn't a good contractor, I probably won't do business with him because we live 4000 miles apart. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with his pricing. The job I talked about that someone else quoted more than double, i charged almost 1/3 more than I normally would because I didn't want to do it. 

Overcharging to me is knowing what your price needs to be to cover overhead, labour burden and to make your normal profit margin, then exceeding it by a wide margin. There are a variety of reasons why your profit margin may grow or shrink, and on any fixed cost job there is no guarantee on what your profit is going to be. 

If Dasanti water doubled the cost of their bottled water in a disaster area, not because of any difficulty in supplying the water, just because they knew that people didn't have working wells to use, then that to me is unethical. If someone charges more than they normally would just because they think they can get away with it...not out of anything even approaching necessity, then I call it overcharging and unethical


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> I was talking to Calidecks.
> 
> I'm not saying he isn't a good contractor, I probably won't do business with him because we live 4000 miles apart. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with his pricing. The job I talked about that someone else quoted more than double, i charged almost 1/3 more than I normally would because I didn't want to do it.
> 
> ...


That is different. Thats a necessity. 

I can tell you when I am busy, I charge more. If I think the job is a pain in the azz or the HO has run me around having me bid it 7 different ways, I charge more.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I charge the same of I think your rich or poor.

I charge more though if I think you're going to be a pain.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

The real question is: Who was the customer?

The GC

or

The GC's client?

Is it ethical to bypass the pecking order? When you go to Burger king do you stand in line & say: $5 for a burger,eff that! Come to my house and I can make em cheaper.

Bruno has already admitted long before he is ruthless, and will undercut ANYONE to get work. So does it come as a surprise that he would do it one more time?

Honestly, he will get a negative enough reputation in due time. Eventually, no contractor will want him on their jobsite because he diesn't care who he hurts to make a buck. 

When you get a call for a bid from a general contractor, the general contractor is your customer. Not the property owner/manager. To cut in line is wrong. 

So what if that particular project is a 1 trade project. Maybe the project before wasn't & now the general contractor became the go to guy.

As far as how much the general contractor makes... It's not your company, & therefore not your business. 

If I am asked for a paint bid, it's none of my business what the plumber makes. It's also none of my business what the GC (THE CUSTOMER!!! ) makes.

God forbid someone make $$ off bruno's work other than him....


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I charge the same of I think your rich or poor. I charge more though if I think you're going to be a pain.


My prices are very high for everyone. However I'm more inclined to lower them for an elderly person or just someone I like. But I don't raise my prices because I see an opportunity to take advantage of someone. Like I said, that's when I'm likely going to lower my price. The market determines my price. If I'm busy my price goes up if I'm slow it will go down. If it's a long commute in traffic you pay a premium, or I don't do your work. I work and live in a very high end community, these are the hardest people to get your price from. It's very rare I bid a job for someone that's poor. Poor people don't build 30,000 dollar decks.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> That is different. Thats a necessity.
> 
> I can tell you when I am busy, I charge more. If I think the job is a pain in the azz or the HO has run me around having me bid it 7 different ways, I charge more.


I was putting my kids to bed and the right word came to me...Value. If you bring value to the work you should be charging for it. If you bring little value you should charge little, if you bring no value you shouldn't charge. In Brunos story the nephew brought little value to the job. He certainly didn't bring $10k worth of value or 50% or an unknown number. 

It could be argued til the cows come home that I don't know what value he brought....but common sense tells me that it just isn't there. and to do it to your aunt and uncle is just ridiculous.

There are a lot of people who call themselves GC's who bring little to no value to a project who want to be very well rewarded for that value, anyone can argue anything they like...it's just business...who's to say what value they bring...why does it matter to me so long as I make what i need to....To me it stinks. Case closed as far as i'm concerned, logic it up as much as you want, I don't like it


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> My prices are very high for everyone. However I'm more inclined to lower them for an elderly person or just someone I like. But I don't raise my prices because I see an opportunity to take advantage of someone. Like I said, that's when I'm likely going to lower my price. The market determines my price. If I'm busy my price goes up if I'm slow it will go down. If it's a long commute in traffic you pay a premium, or I don't do your work. I work and live in a very high end community, these are the hardest people to get your price from. It's very rare I bid a job for someone that's poor. Poor people don't build 30,000 dollar decks.


Actually I agree with that. I'm starting a roof tomorrow for my grandmother in laws 92 year old friend who has owned her home for 60 years with leaks all over. It's a very simple job and if we don't finish in a day, I'll barely break even.

Back on topic, everyone has a roll from GCs to Employees. It takes everyone to complete a job.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

How can you overcharge/gouge on a bid when the GC, owner or what ever can simply reject the bid.

If they accept the price who cares what it is.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Again I charge the most I can and still get the job. Isn't that what all businesses do? McDonalds would charge more for a burger if it meant they wouldn't lose business. Would it be gouging? No, because I can always go to Burger King.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Again I charge the most I can and still get the job. Isn't that what all businesses do? McDonalds would charge more for a burger if it meant they wouldn't lose business. Would it be gouging? No, because I can always go to Burger King.


I agree. :thumbsup: I love making money :thumbup:

My point is I dont want to look at my balance sheet at the end of the job and be ashamed. If I made more than my sub and materials cost TOGETHER, on a single trade project id feel like a snake oil salesman. 

But, I also agree with Griz. In all seriousness, if they take the bid its a price they felt was fair.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

griz said:


> How can you overcharge/gouge on a bid when the GC, owner or what ever can simply reject the bid. If they accept the price who cares what it is.


In this case there is an implied trust between the owner and GC as they are family. I can't imagine one of my nephews ding me for 10k for what is basically a referral. What value is this guy bringing to the table anyway?

As a sub myself, I care deeply that my GC makes a decent living. And I do all I can to make them look good. But for those that I have bid work for that rarely are able to sell the package, I have to wonder why and eventually spend my efforts somewhere else. 

I like to think I have pretty good intuition. With what I have heard here I think I would bow out of the entire situation. When you really think about it, our instincts and our ethics are all we have to guide us away from trouble. I know we all have our own of each and that's cool with me. I will be the guy on a soap box telling anyone that will listen that this GC is bad news and drags us all down.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

I can see griz's point of view but a lot of my clients don't know if it should cost 10,000 or 50,000 they just trust that I will be fair with them.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Gus Dering said:


> In this case there is an implied trust between the owner and GC as they are family. I can't imagine one of my nephews ding me for 10k for what is basically a referral. What value is this guy bringing to the table anyway?
> 
> As a sub myself, I care deeply that my GC makes a decent living. And I do all I can to make them look good. But for those that I have bid work for that rarely are able to sell the package, I have to wonder why and eventually spend my efforts somewhere else.
> 
> I like to think I have pretty good intuition. With what I have heard here I think I would bow out of the entire situation. When you really think about it, our instincts and our ethics are all we have to guide us away from trouble. I know we all have our own of each and that's cool with me. I will be the guy on a soap box telling anyone that will listen that this GC is bad news and drags us all down.


:thumbsup: I agree


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

donerightwyo said:


> I can see griz's point of view but a lot of my clients don't know if it should cost 10,000 or 50,000 they just trust that I will be fair with them.


Exactly


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

donerightwyo said:


> I can see griz's point of view but a lot of my clients don't know if it should cost 10,000 or 50,000 they just trust that I will be fair with them.


And that trust should be rewarded by taking care of their interests. 

A good GC is one that can take care of the client, the subs and themselves. They know when to stand up for the client and keep the subs in line. They also are very good at standing up for the subs and educating the owner when it's appropriate. And all along taking care of business themselves. 

It's been my experience the best ones are the most honest ones. Could it be a coincidence ?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

donerightwyo said:


> I can see griz's point of view but a lot of my clients don't know if it should cost 10,000 or 50,000 they just trust that I will be fair with them.


I hope you don't think I condone or agree with overcharging. 

It is possible to take advantage of people but likely you won't get many opportunities after the first one.

You are really successful in this business when you have the reputation that you provide high quality work, on time & on budget. 

You know you are trusted when people hand you a set of plans, tell you no one else is bidding on it & ask how fast you can have a contract to them.

Or in the old days you would just do the job & bill the client as needed.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Gus Dering said:


> And that trust should be rewarded by taking care of their interests.
> 
> A good GC is one that can take care of the client, the subs and themselves. They know when to stand up for the client and keep the subs in line. They also are very good at standing up for the subs and educating the owner when it's appropriate. And all along taking care of business themselves.
> 
> It's been my experience the best ones are the most honest ones. Could it be a coincidence ?


Very well said. I agree.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

griz said:


> I hope you don't think I condone or agree with overcharging.
> 
> It is possible to take advantage of people but likely you won't get many opportunities after the first one.
> 
> ...


I dont think anyone thought you condoned it. I know DRWY didnt.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Gus Dering said:


> And that trust should be rewarded by taking care of their interests.
> 
> A good GC is one that can take care of the client, the subs and themselves. They know when to stand up for the client and keep the subs in line. They also are very good at standing up for the subs and educating the owner when it's appropriate. And all along taking care of business themselves.
> 
> *It's been my experience the best ones are the most honest ones. Could it be a coincidence ?*


Absolutely not a coincidence...:thumbsup:


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

griz said:


> I hope you don't think I condone or agree with overcharging.
> 
> It is possible to take advantage of people but likely you won't get many opportunities after the first one.
> 
> ...


For some of us the old days are still around Griz:thumbup:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

griz said:


> It is possible to take advantage of people but likely you won't get many opportunities after the first one.


From Brunos post it sounded like most of the GC's in his area are quick scam guys who become GC's overnight because they know a guy who can do something for someone then when their act is caught up on they disappear 

There were a lot of those guys around here during the boom as well. Most are gone now because people are more discriminating and shop around more, but they were sleaze then and they are sleaze now


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

donerightwyo said:


> For some of us the old days are still around Griz:thumbup:


yup happens to me all the time. just finished one. the GC was getting quotes from 4 or 5 trades at a general site meeting. I asked if e wanted a firm price or a ballpark, he said not to worry, I'm always fair, just get it done and make it look good. Done and done


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

donerightwyo said:


> For some of us the old days are still around Griz:thumbup:


:thumbsup:

Out of thanks


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> yup happens to me all the time. just finished one. the GC was getting quotes from 4 or 5 trades at a general site meeting. I asked if e wanted a firm price or a ballpark, he said not to worry, I'm always fair, just get it done and make it look good. Done and done


:thumbsup:


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

I had a party last weekend.

In attendance: Employees, subs, clients.......... family, friends. The first three are also the last two.

We all ate, drank, laughed, and kept it going till 3am (the LED floodlights shining on my freshly restored exterior helped).

Value (Dom)...fairness(drwy)....compassion(ohio,cal(?)).....all-around good guyness (jaws,gus).......

I would like to think that we do much more than just make money. 

Unrestrained capitalism builds portfolios. Enlightened capitalism builds communities. Hopefully we are "building" a culture that rests on the kind of values that really matter. One that we will be proud to pass along to the next generation. 

Our businesses should be a model for what we want to see reflected in our lives and our culture at large. 

Look around you. How good has the "get all you can" ethos worked out for our great nation? Used to be a man would rather jump out a window overlooking Wall St. than become a Corzine. I SAY HE SHOULDA PHUCKING JUMPED. But instead, he probably pocketed a tidy profit while ****ting on everyone else......cuz he "could". 

Like charging someone $5k, throwing what amounts to FRP panels on some walls, and calling it a bathroom...cuz you "could" (cuz they didnt know any better). What you reap............

I take what I deserve, not a penny more. I am happy to report, that most of the time, I deserve enough to be happy. 

In the end, I'd sit down for grappa anytime, and the original GC in question is a useless leech......and a shifty d-bag to boot.

And I'm only slightly drunk. Early AM flight....I deserve it....drinking.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> I had a party last weekend.
> 
> In attendance: Employees, subs, clients.......... family, friends. The first three are also the last two.
> 
> ...


Well said, bro :thumbsup:


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> I had a party last weekend.
> 
> In attendance: Employees, subs, clients.......... family, friends. The first three are also the last two.
> 
> ...


^^^^^+++++

Good thought Blue.... It's ultimately a life choice and issue of character.


Curious.... Could ya tell me your age bracket in general.....


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

BlueRidgeGreen said:


> I had a party last weekend.
> 
> In attendance: Employees, subs, clients.......... family, friends. The first three are also the last two.
> 
> ...


ya understand my ethics and how i think, and i agree
thank you sir


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## BlueRidgeGreen (Apr 21, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> ^^^^^+++++
> 
> Good thought Blue.... It's ultimately a life choice and issue of character.
> 
> Curious.... Could ya tell me your age bracket in general.....


My age bracket is 42-43. 

And thanks.


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## RandyB1986 (Jan 2, 2009)

EricBrancard said:


> A lot of us do know this stuff. But like Jaws and I said, we can't legally perform certain tasks even if we have the knowledge and ability. So, we depend on the subcontractors we have built relationships with to perform the type of work they have the licensing and thousands upon thousands of hours doing.
> 
> That's not being a pimp, that's being a responsible GC/Business person.


If you didn't know how to do it though....you would then be a pimp.

Nothing surprises me about you guys out East and far West.......I am glad I am in good old Indiana, where our Government thinks we are smart enough to protect ourselves and allow us to do so :thumbsup:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Ummm yeah...I'm sure you are perfectly competent in all aspects of construction. 

If you believe that you are either very limited in your exposure or just totally overly arrogant


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

RandyB1986 said:


> If you didn't know how to do it though....you would then be a pimp.
> 
> Nothing surprises me about you guys out East and far West.......I am glad I am in good old Indiana, where our Government thinks we are smart enough to protect ourselves and allow us to do so :thumbsup:


Were glad your in Indiana too.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Some people are smart enough to hang themselves with no rope in sight.


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