# Homeowner wont pay



## lemaster (May 8, 2008)

Hi, new to all of this but looking for some help. I am a low voltage contractor and recently finished a $22,000.00 job for a homeowner ( cameras, tv's, and so on). Now the homeowner says he is not happy with the work and wont pay his bill. I need to pay my supply bills from this job. Has anyone else had this problem or know what I need to do to get payed?:furious:


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

welcome to the site, please tell me you took payments and are not on the hook for 22,000


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## Sam60 (Apr 29, 2006)

For that much money it will be more than worth it for you to go to a lawyer.


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## lemaster (May 8, 2008)

No, I didnt get any money up front. I work on a 60/40 pay scale but this man said he had never heard of such thing so I went on with the work. I do have a signed estimate but no contract.


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

lemaster said:


> No, I didnt get any money up front. I work on a 60/40 pay scale but this man said he had never heard of such thing so I went on with the work. I do have a signed estimate but no contract.


You're screwed, I really wish......Oh nevermind!


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

No contract - you're not gonna get a lot of love around here.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

shi# le, tough spot. i cant understand anyone exposing themselves that much. this topic, about taking deposits has come up on this site occasionally. for all the guys who dont believe in deposits read this thread. at best this will be a lenthy llegal process for you that will end with you getting a portion of your $, expensive lesson..


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

Someone pass him the Preperation H.... He needs it.


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## user15686 (Jul 30, 2007)

You just learned a very hard lesson. You might need to go old school. Gas can with collections painted on the side. Leave on front porch. Don't let him see you. Drive by the next day for a chit chat. If you don't have the stomach for that, accept the fact you're screwed.


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

If you have the skill to do a 22K job...how do you not have the brains to get a portion of the money upfront? How is it that you do not have ANY kind of contract? I want to meet your homeowner and have him teach me how to be so persuasive. If he isn't that persuasive you have no business talking to a customer...ever. 22k wow.....well, I have a motto that I like to refer to at times like this....better you than me.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Better get a lawyer, CT is full of smart and experienced contractors. Many who learned some hard lessons. Get a lawyer, get back here and tell us how its going. Very little can be done for you on a postings thread.


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## MattCoops (Apr 7, 2006)

Not to beat a dead horse, but, how can you be a contractor and not have a contract?

Lesson learned: Always take a deposit. And have both homeowners sign a contract that outlines EVERYTHING.

I would just keep hounding him til he pays up.

What is he unhappy about?


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

What is he unhappy about?[/quote]

Good question, if its everything why did he wait until payment time?
What about progress payments?
Whats the whole story?


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## Candlewood (May 7, 2008)

Without a signed contract I dont see how you could win in court. 

Whats the 60/40 payment schedule? 

I hope it all works out for you.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

MattCoops said:


> Not to beat a dead horse, but, how can you be a contractor and not have a contract?
> 
> Lesson learned: Always take a deposit. And have both homeowners sign a contract that outlines EVERYTHING.
> 
> ...


Contractor.noun *kon*-trak-ter
1.a person who contracts to furnish supplies or perform work at a certain price or rate. 

For cryin' out loud the word CONTRACT is part of the name of your profession!!!

p.s....not directed at you Matt.


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## AllAmerican (Nov 17, 2007)

I agree with the previous posts.

Contact your attorney immediately. If the laws of your state require any preliminary notice filings in order to lien a property - do it now. 

Even if Mr. Homeowner promises payment, do not stop with your legal proceedings until the check clears. 

Good luck.


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

Dude,

Sorry to hear about this. At this point, attempt to "lawyer up"....

Good Luck, and be MUCH more careful in the future, also, be more business oriented (protect yourself) and use some "paper" ..... with your work.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

i would belittle him and his wife and any thing else in his life.......that way when you dont get the money thats owed to you can can still have the satisfaction of knowing that you pissed him off by calling his old lady and every other female member of his family a whore.......be a dick thats what i do and most of the time i get my money but id never extend my self that far


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

A signed agreement of any form is better than a verbal understanding, but it depends on how detailed your signed "Estimate" was.

Would you care to share it and expand on the signed document?

Your suppliers WILL help you out, but you must be on the same team with them.

They have a right to Lien the property for their materials furnished.

Start documenting every screw and washer, plus the big stuff too.

I won't bash you about the naivette' on your part, because I am sure you are doing enough of that to yourself every waking moment and some sleepless nights already.

A Lawyer experienced in Contract law for Home Remodeling Contractors is now a necessity.

Reality, if it goes the court process, is 1, 2 or 3 years down the road, depending on how firm each of your positions are. 

Talk to your attorney. Ask more questions. Don't panic, the time for that has already passed and look for a solution.

Are any of his criticisms justified, even partially? Work them out with him. Suck up BIG TIME at first to limit the bleeding. Work together as a team and not adversaries at this point, but be ready, willing and able to cut the bastards balls off if he does not compromise and try to work things out.

Talk to a Laywer.....NOW!!!

Ed


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## Candlewood (May 7, 2008)

rex said:


> i would belittle him and his wife and any thing else in his life.......that way when you dont get the money thats owed to you can can still have the satisfaction of knowing that you pissed him off by calling his old lady and every other female member of his family a whore.......be a dick thats what i do and most of the time i get my money but id never extend my self that far


For some reason I disagree with this statement. 

I wouldnt go as far as pissing him off any more than you already have. 

Curious to know what you did for his reason behind the non-payment.


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

Candlewood said:


> For some reason I disagree with this statement.
> 
> I wouldnt go as far as pissing him off any more than you already have.
> 
> Curious to know what you did for his reason behind the non-payment.


Candlewood is absolutely correct in his advice. Regardless of how badly an ex-client is behaving ( or even personally insulting you)....
....ALWAYS, ALWAYS...be VERy business-like and Professional. If you were to go into litigation on this, such a stark contrast in conduct and behavior will do much to put you in a very good light. It's not about manipulating the system, it's about being a professional business person, conducting professional business, and "taking care of business...professionally".
If you work for yourself in some capacity, you will regularly end up legally trying to collect payment on moneys that you are due. It's the nature of things.
Be a professional, and a mature adult....100% of the time (or at least try to).

...BTW: Also consider what Ed suggested...


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## Stevelsc8721 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Screwed*

For your friend from Bombay lein double what he owes you, make up a contract and have two copies, leave one in his car or some stupid place on his property he will find it sonner or later. have yours in court and show the judge, Just play stupid I Have mine where is yours? I gave it to him. Why isn't it signed he was going to give me his copy but was always away on business, or sign yours with an initial. 

Next time walk when you don't have any deposits. At least you have work, but not the paying kind.

Have strange women calling for him, funny magazines come to his house, break his balls with this, dating services call up about past due bills. maybe Elliot Spizer can help him he has time on his hands


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

I'd get my 22 grand one way or the other. 'Nuff said...:whistling


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Stevelsc8721 said:


> Have strange women calling for him, funny magazines come to his house, break his balls with this, dating services call up about past due bills. maybe Elliot Spizer can help him he has time on his hands


:laughing:That's pretty good. Maybe take it one step further. If you know where he works have some really hard core porn sent to his office, flaming gay male escort comes looking for him at his office and makes a big scene in front of everybody.:laughing:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Stevelsc8721 said:


> For your friend from Bombay lein double what he owes you, *make up a contract and have two copies, leave one in his car or some stupid place on his property he will find it sonner or later. have yours in court and show the judge, Just play stupid I Have mine where is yours? I gave it to him. Why isn't it signed he was going to give me his copy but was always away on business, or sign yours with an initial*.
> 
> Next time walk when you don't have any deposits. At least you have work, but not the paying kind.
> 
> Have strange women calling for him, funny magazines come to his house, break his balls with this, dating services call up about past due bills. maybe Elliot Spizer can help him he has time on his hands


Do that in court and it's called perjury Einstien....


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## Fence & Deck (Jan 23, 2006)

Everyone is beratting you for taking on a $22000 job without a deposit or even a contract. 
However, in Western Law, there is a principle sometimes known as "TANSTAAFL". There Ain't NO Such Thing As A Free Lunch. In other words, 
The homeowner should not benefit by your work for free.

You need to get to a lawyer immediately if not sooner.

if you did the work, you should get paid.


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## HellisLikeNewrk (Mar 25, 2008)

I have my first non-payer since starting my business. I did some extra work involving assisting the homeowner installing four recessed lights (owners of single family homes are allowed to do their own electrical). The room was a porch that a former owner converted to a den. When we pulled up the subfloor to insulate, all the floor joists fell over. They were never secured to anything. So extra work included re-installing / leveling / bracing all the joists, installing a new subfloor, trash removal, and installing new corner beads (the homeowner was butchering his walls trying to do it himself) and some additional spackle / sanding came out to $810 in labor and materials. Sent the customer an itemized list of charges with backup receipts for the material. The job was charged per hour + materials (with a 15% charge on materials to cover the time / mileage to pick them up).

So far, no check, no response to emails, and no phone calls returned. So far the emails and messages left have been friendly. I am wondering at what point should they get not-so-nice. I think the problem lies in with his wife. She bitched at her husband constantly about him spending money on the den. I think they are first time homeowners and the wife has no clue as to the costs of using licensed, insured guys to do quality work. I suspect she is the problem and not hubby. He did pay me for the insulation part of the job (about $1,100) though.


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## Aframe (Mar 24, 2008)

Had a similar situation on a house cust was going to flip, but turned out to have structural issues from previous owners renovations.

I no written contract, had job outline and est. Cust. gave me a check to just get started as soon as I could. Job came trough one of my subs and my portion had to be done so he could do his part, so I say ok ready to go. Owner pulls permit for total renovation. My est. was only for structural work.

Get about halfway through my work when money starts to get upside down, spending my money to keep job going. (first sign of trouble)
Finished my work on the house, sub gets his part done, structure inspected and ready for interior close up. Time to pay up.

Of course cust. wants to keep going to finish up the renovation, thats when the stories start. "I need to have the next portion done to get next installment from the bank.

Now on the hook for 7k. I say no and take materials I purchased with me and wait for $$. 2-3 months later start lien, and legal work.

Story goes on and on, (and it get my blood boiling every time just thinking about it). Eventually we settle, took a small hit and out legal costs. Learned my lesson. 


An oral contract is still a contract, just can't prove what was agreed upon. But if you have your est. and the work is done, he is going to pay somthing. Your just gonna have to chase him for it.

You didn't break into his house to do the work right, somebody let you in on more than one occasion. 

edit: "Signed estimate" was his signature ? if yes there is your agreement on price. If there were extras thats where you fight for it.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Doing a small job with no contract is one thing but $22k on the line definitly would require a contract in my book. Obviously you know this now. But, you did give the customer an estimate and there was an agreement for you to perform the work. This would be a verbal agreement which can constitute a verbal contract but the law will only recognize what the estimate says. Any changes probably wont be covered. You will need a good attorney for this but you should come out with most of your money that is owed. Anyone who thinks they can hire a contractor to supply materials and work for free must be a fool and should realize they would lose in court. Good luck.


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## aikenback (Jun 4, 2008)

I like Rex!! But my dad told me once that ANY education costs money. Many people consider all others to be there for their consumption. You will never convince someone like that to see it your way when it will cost them tens of thousands $$. Been down that road!!


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## MIbeachbuilder (Feb 6, 2008)

wizendwizard said:


> Someone pass him the Preperation H.... He needs it.


Dont you mean the K-Y? a signed estimate may be enough to slap a lien against the property, assuming you have a more formal estimate sheet stating the usual blather about his need to PAY you to have the services performed and he is agreeing to have the work done by signing... have you looked into that? sometimes the threat of a lien is all you need.


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## OAKGC (Feb 11, 2008)

Make sure your new contract has a Title to Material clause. Yours until paid. 
If you don't get paid you can take "your" materials back. 
Mine states that if the materials are affixed to realty they remain subject to removal.:whistling
Gotta love my lawyer for that one.


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## samthedog (Mar 15, 2008)

If you have the receipts I would demand payment or else debt collectors would become involved. I would destroy this guy's credit rating. As long as you can prove he has your materials and has not paid for them you can demand them back (that's how it works in Australia anyway). They can then be removed at his cost.


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## bujaly (Dec 16, 2006)

OAKGC said:


> Make sure your new contract has a Title to Material clause. Yours until paid.
> If you don't get paid you can take "your" materials back.
> Mine states that if the materials are affixed to realty they remain subject to removal.:whistling
> Gotta love my lawyer for that one.


Really???


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

OAKGC said:


> Make sure your new contract has a Title to Material clause. Yours until paid.
> If you don't get paid you can take "your" materials back.
> Mine states that if the materials are affixed to realty they remain subject to removal.:whistling
> Gotta love my lawyer for that one.


 
HHHAAAA, Good luck with that one. Just because you write up in a contract, doesn't mean it's legal. CA is strict on that one.


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## Candlewood (May 7, 2008)

OAKGC said:


> Make sure your new contract has a Title to Material clause. Yours until paid.
> If you don't get paid you can take "your" materials back.
> Mine states that if the materials are affixed to realty they remain subject to removal.:whistling
> Gotta love my lawyer for that one.


Thats Genius !


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## OAKGC (Feb 11, 2008)

JamesNLA said:


> HHHAAAA, Good luck with that one. Just because you write up in a contract, doesn't mean it's legal. CA is strict on that one.


 Very true. My lawyer seems to think it is legal.


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## Rockhound (Jul 12, 2007)

OAKGC said:


> Very true. My lawyer seems to think it is legal.


 
Doesn't mean the HO knows any different :shifty: The mention of "rippin' it OUT" may be just enough to make them panic and pay up.


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## davy crockett (Dec 19, 2007)

Attention newbies and contractor wanna be's,,READ THIS THREAD MULTIPLE TIMES......80% of contractors fail because they don't know how to operate a business. They are usually good at their trade. Please people let's be smart. I get deposits from everyone if the job is over $500 or more than 2 days of work. That means when I trust you to pay me it's for the balance not the total.If you don't I will secure a lien QUICKLY. Have a wonderful day.This (contracting)is a tough beast to ride, and even when done correctly you have to finance the boat.:w00t:


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## NICKPAUS (May 11, 2008)

OAKGC said:


> Make sure your new contract has a Title to Material clause. Yours until paid.
> If you don't get paid you can take "your" materials back.
> Mine states that if the materials are affixed to realty they remain subject to removal.:whistling
> Gotta love my lawyer for that one.


 Just dont use the same Lawyer in Court as he does not know what he is talking about. Once it is attached or installed to real estate in CA you cannot take it back out if customer does not pay. It becomes a Civil matter and you must go to court. I would if have a bunch of broken tiles and squares of roofing with nail holes if that was the case.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Aren't burglary and vandalism and wilful misconduct and criminal mischief against the law in your states?:whistling


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## NICKPAUS (May 11, 2008)

He stated he was from California. In California they will get you for vandalism. Learned first hand. Thats why Contracts are so Important once it is installed it is Civil you cant just take it back. I would take your contract to a contract attorney and see what he thinks about your " Material Clause" as the whole Contract may be wrong and not hold up in court.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

my favorite story is before i was with this company. they had a customer try to not pay. he was happy with the deck, he said he just didnt want to pay. he told jeff that there was nothing he could do about it. after a few attempts to collect he sent a laborer and his just out of prision brother out with him to try for a final collection. jeff knocked in the door with the brothers (both are into lifting and ripped) behind him holding chain saws. he told the HO that they were leaving with a certified check or the deck itself. the guy said they were full of it. the chainsaws started up and he quickly changed his mind. off to the bank he went.

that was a while ago and i dont think we would go that approach again. 

a couple years ago we had a customer who wanted to keep doing punchlist (which was all wish list items). after the 5th list we said enough was enough and we were not doing anymore touch ups as it was all existing. she told us she wasnt going to pay. our lawyer sent her a letter and the day the papers were to be filed she had a check for us. the project was a flipper house for her so having a lien on it wouldnt have been to good for trying to sell it quickly. 

its amazing what a lawyers letter will do


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## NICKPAUS (May 11, 2008)

chris klee said:


> my favorite story is before i was with this company. they had a customer try to not pay. he was happy with the deck, he said he just didnt want to pay. he told jeff that there was nothing he could do about it. after a few attempts to collect he sent a laborer and his just out of prision brother out with him to try for a final collection. jeff knocked in the door with the brothers (both are into lifting and ripped) behind him holding chain saws. he told the HO that they were leaving with a certified check or the deck itself. the guy said they were full of it. the chainsaws started up and he quickly changed his mind. off to the bank he went.
> 
> that was a while ago and i dont think we would go that approach again.
> 
> If you did thid nowadays you would be serving several years in Prison. I know some hardcore thugs that collect Drug Money Debts and have thought of using them but sitting in a Jail cell is not for me. Its much easier to write up a contract correctly and be a nice guy as word of mouth is 95% of my Business. Past jobs that I never got paid on but failed to write up contracts correctly on I just write off as a loss.


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## Since 1977 (Jun 4, 2008)

I always tell them "I pay my lawyer more than you pay yours" 
Always seems to work for me......

Since 1977


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

*It's happened to use all......*

#1 it's happened to every contractor 

#2 learn from the mistake and *don't let it happen again*

#3 SEND HIM AN INTENT TO LEIN NOTICE
(probably one in this site, somewhere)

#4 get a lawyer, get a contract , get change orders

#5 get over it, I just dealt with my change order customer from hell.
I found this site because of it.
Had change orders , but didn't force the signature.
I'm the idiot, will never happen again

GOOD LUCK


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## Mississippi (Jan 3, 2013)




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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Have a lawyer acquaint him with Theft of Services...

$22K? That's like buying a car and thinking you can keep it without paying "just cause' you weren't happy"...

Unless the HO has a legitimate claim, there's no way a judge is going to let the HO off the hook for $22K...

Hopefully, the first lesson after having a contract is that you've already contacted a lawyer for this...

Best of luck... 8^)


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## ESSaustin (Mar 27, 2010)

Does anyone pay attention to the thread dates?


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## Frank Castle (Dec 27, 2011)

ESSaustin said:


> Does anyone pay attention to the thread dates?


:laughing:

Now that it's back, did the OP ever get his money?:laughing:

Knock Knock lemaster, is there anybody out there?:blink:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

I can't believe that I fell for that... AGAIN !!!... :no:


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## john5mt (Jan 21, 2007)

Wow a 6 year old thread. I wonder if he got his cash


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Unknowingly replying to old threads is worse than getting Rick Rolled.


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## mako1 (Sep 1, 2013)

JamesNLA said:


> If you have the skill to do a 22K job...how do you not have the brains to get a portion of the money upfront? How is it that you do not have ANY kind of contract? I want to meet your homeowner and have him teach me how to be so persuasive. If he isn't that persuasive you have no business talking to a customer...ever. 22k wow.....well, I have a motto that I like to refer to at times like this....better you than me.


+1
Sorry but true!!!!!


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

In my defense, I was responding after the post from THIS year... :whistling :laughing:


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