# Pay me for my materials and Im out of here!



## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Do exactly what the specs in your contract say.
Present him with bill.
If he doesn't pay, file small claims court. As long as you did what you specified you were going to do in the contract no judge will rule against you.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

TimNJ said:


> If he doesn't pay, file small claims court. As long as you did what you specified you were going to do in the contract no judge will rule against you.


This is tremendously bad advice. Anyone who thinks they ever know what a judge will rule is a fool.

Let's say you win. Now you've got to collect. By the time you're through you'll be making .9 an hour instead of $9.00 an hour on this job.

This job is tuition at contractor school. Everyone here has paid it and those that say they haven't are liars.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Years later, I'm still getting jobs sold for me from some of my biggest pain in the ass clients. Finish the job to their satisfaction, it very well could pay off in spades for years & years.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

pinwheel said:


> Years later, I'm still getting jobs sold for me from some of my biggest pain in the ass clients. Finish the job to their satisfaction, it very well could pay off in spades for years & years.


I agree there and have had my share. The thing is that MOST of those PITA people's friends KNOW that person is an *******. 

Lot of times you get benefit of being the one person whom was able to please the dragon so to speak.

:thumbsup:


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## jstanton (Mar 25, 2012)

Pin & Creter summed it up very well. My worst customer still sends me referrals and boasts about my work. Actually has called a couple times, I politely declined.

I would let him now tomorrow 8 a.m. you need to meet with him. Get him to tell you EXACTLY what he wants. Write it all down and get him to sign it. Be very firm with the fact you need to finish and cannot continue with him changing his mind every 2 min.

If he cannot provide the details he wants I would give him 2 options

1. I will go to my next job, You write down the exact details of the job. When you provide this I will then fit you back into the schedule ( 2-3 months out at the moment)

2. We can void the contract and proceed time & materials. I charge X amount per hour and 20% on materials. 

I have been in your shoes, you cannot continue to let him run your job. Typically these customers are like spoiled children, they don't get their way they throw a tantrum. Once you put them in time out, their attitude changes. 

Don't be mean, just let him know you are done with these games. Best of luck.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Kowboy said:


> This is tremendously bad advice. Anyone who thinks they ever know what a judge will rule is a fool.
> 
> Let's say you win. Now you've got to collect. By the time you're through you'll be making .9 an hour instead of $9.00 an hour on this job.
> 
> This job is tuition at contractor school. Everyone here has paid it and those that say they haven't are liars.



Having taken a "few" to small claims and won, how is that "bad advice".

Sit in a court room sometime and you will see how a judge treats a "professional" business person with a legitimate contract vs someone who just comes in the court room "shooting their mouth off".


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

It seems like sometimes you turn down more work then you are getting if you're doing it right.....A lot of people have expectations that just can't be met.....you can get a good run for 2 years even...but eventually those people are gonna call with a big job that smells like big $$$......but you better turn it down cause the ******* factor is present


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

TimNJ said:


> Having taken a "few" to small claims and won, how is that "bad advice".
> 
> Sit in a court room sometime and you will see how a judge treats a "professional" business person with a legitimate contract vs someone who just comes in the court room "shooting their mouth off".


TimNJ:

The only way we can evaluate if you really "won" or not is to divide the amount of time you spent plus your expenses into any recovered sums. Do the math and see if you've proved my point, please.


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## ottergolfer (Jun 17, 2015)

i vote you stay and finish .
ask him what he does not like and have him be specific.
read what he is saying in your mind and give him one or two options of how you would fix it . Have HIM choose what he likes do it that way ,get done and get out .
even if you only break even or lose a couple hundred bucks it is much better than a guy that will bad mouth you anyone and everyone .
good luck


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Kowboy said:


> TimNJ:
> 
> The only way we can evaluate if you really "won" or not is to divide the amount of time you spent plus your expenses into any recovered sums. Do the math and see if you've proved my point, please.


Winning is only half the battle.
Would you want your company to have the reputation that customers walk all over you and your contracts are basically worthless pieces of paper?

Sorry, not me.
I am a professional.
I draw a contract up and spec everything out that is going into the job.
I am expected to perform the service as specified in the contract.

The customer is expected to honor their side as well. If they don't, there are consequences.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Kowboy said:


> TimNJ:
> 
> The only way we can evaluate if you really "won" or not is to divide the amount of time you spent plus your expenses into any recovered sums. Do the math and see if you've proved my point, please.


It's sort of a side topic but I don't make all of my decisions on money alone. Maybe that's a shortcoming on my part, I don't know. But if someone is trying to cheat me it's game on.

I took a gal to court, won, she still didn't pay. I researched my options and found an increase of judgment upon failure to pay law and found a lawyer to put it in motion. He did look at the lien angle but said she had no equity.

It must have been a surprise when her bank let her know the judgment plus attorney fees were extracted from her account by court order.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

RangoWA said:


> It's sort of a side topic but I don't make all of my decisions on money alone. Maybe that's a shortcoming on my part, I don't know. But if someone is trying to cheat me it's game on.
> 
> I took a gal to court, won, she still didn't pay. I researched my options and found an increase of judgment upon failure to pay law and found a lawyer to put it in motion. He did look at the lien angle but said she had no equity.
> 
> It must have been a surprise when her bank let her know the judgment plus attorney fees were extracted from her account by court order.


It would take a lot to get me to that point, but i am the same. Screw me over and ill spend 10k to get 1k. If it goes that far I will use every available avenue for the rest of my life to screw that person back times 10. Maybe ill mellow out more with more age, i am a lot more apt to let stuff go now as i was 5 years ago.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> It would take a lot to get me to that point, but i am the same. Screw me over and ill spend 10k to get 1k. If it goes that far I will use every available avenue for the rest of my life to screw that person back times 10. Maybe ill mellow out more with more age, i am a lot more apt to let stuff go now as i was 5 years ago.


When you realize you lost $9K to get $1K, and you gave up limited time you never get back, it might get you there quicker... the person who was screwing you over is not likely to change...

So instead of screwing you for a thousand, they added insult to injury to get you to screw yourself out of an additional $9K... 

Now, if you could get that money back as well, of course that changes things... :thumbsup:

But the courts don't allow you to get your time back or compensated for it...
.


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## nunya01 (Mar 25, 2012)

*Education*

Consider it a crash course in PSY/101. Being able to "read" customers is an art, not a science.
The true master can weed out the dip****s before ever starting work. I have yet to attain this level, but I'd rate myself as a brown belt. Every once in a while one will slip through the cracks.

My wife HATES when business is slow and turn down work b/c the customer is a dip****. But, I punted one the other day. 5 phone calls from this guy and I just kept getting more angry on each call - he kept second guessing my work. I won't mention specifics because he is a semi-celebrity. He was suddenly in a big hurry to do a job I bid before Christmas 2014!
(_note: If your Mrs. is involved in your business, you've probably heard the same line - "Can't you just put up with it for two days?"_)
I told him the truth (just part of it). I said I have finals for school and I won't be able to dedicate the attention that he needs for his project.
The truth I didn't tell: "You're an ***-hole and I do not want to deal with you".
If someone is a jerk, but I think I can tolerate them - I raise my price significantly to make up for the misery I'm sure to endure.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Jaws said:


> It would take a lot to get me to that point, but i am the same. Screw me over and ill spend 10k to get 1k. If it goes that far I will use every available avenue for the rest of my life to screw that person back times 10. Maybe ill mellow out more with more age, i am a lot more apt to let stuff go now as i was 5 years ago.


This gal was a special case. Thought she was slick, BIG time shopper. Everyday amazon packages showed up. Many went back. I turned a rough work shop into a nice guest room for her office, was happy but she wanted a big special person discount. Since she drives a new Benz and all.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

It's been two days.

Hoping OP didn't choose the balcony.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

We are all business owners here and each job has to be considered on its own.
Just gave my experience that Small Claims is quick and pretty easy when in similar situation.

Assumption had to made that 1) OP had a legal legitimate contract in place.
2) OP performed job in manner that there would be no complaint on workmanship.


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## Yianno (Dec 11, 2014)

Easy Gibson said:


> It's been two days.
> 
> Hoping OP didn't choose the balcony.


Balcony looked great last night and early this morning. Had to cancel a previously booked job and lose it unfortunately to go finish him up. HO is crazy sob. Made a big deal about my compressor and miter saw. Made me have to cut everything with miter box and wanted me to put everything in metal studs with a hammer and nails lol. Finished the job but I know deep down he isn't impressed as he commented he is teaching me. Ridiculous. All I know is that I'm not doing more work for them again and that I've probably lost the bathroom job his wife best friend got a quote on. HO even took all the baseboards I installed out so I can install them without compressor. Smh honestly. And catch this now he says the wall isn't straight and makes racial comments on me. Wall is 100% straight and more importantly in the spot it should be. He initially wanted the pocket door to touch the trim of the adjacent door


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Yianno said:


> Balcony looked great last night and early this morning. Had to cancel a previously booked job and lose it unfortunately to go finish him up. HO is crazy sob. Made a big deal about my compressor and miter saw. Made me have to cut everything with miter box and wanted me to put everything in metal studs with a hammer and nails lol. Finished the job but I know deep down he isn't impressed as he commented he is teaching me. Ridiculous. All I know is that I'm not doing more work for them again and that I've probably lost the bathroom job his wife best friend got a quote on. HO even took all the baseboards I installed out so I can install them without compressor. Smh honestly. And catch this now he says the wall isn't straight and makes racial comments on me. Wall is 100% straight and more importantly in the spot it should be. He initially wanted the pocket door to touch the trim of the adjacent door


Never let a HO dictate how you work. You become an employee of the HO at that point.


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## Yianno (Dec 11, 2014)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Never let a HO dictate how you work. You become an employee of the HO at that point.


Felt even worse then being an employee. You have no idea what the feeling was like working there


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## TaylorMadeAB (Nov 11, 2014)

Yianno said:


> Balcony looked great last night and early this morning. Had to cancel a previously booked job and lose it unfortunately to go finish him up. HO is crazy sob. Made a big deal about my compressor and miter saw. Made me have to cut everything with miter box and wanted me to put everything in metal studs with a hammer and nails lol. Finished the job but I know deep down he isn't impressed as he commented he is teaching me. Ridiculous. All I know is that I'm not doing more work for them again and that I've probably lost the bathroom job his wife best friend got a quote on. HO even took all the baseboards I installed out so I can install them without compressor. Smh honestly. And catch this now he says the wall isn't straight and makes racial comments on me. Wall is 100% straight and more importantly in the spot it should be. He initially wanted the pocket door to touch the trim of the adjacent door



So he is telling you what tools to use, and removing work you've done already. Just so you can re install it by hand?!
This guy sounds like a lunatic. There is no way in hell that I would stick around for that. I'd also bill him for all the extra time it took to do it his way.


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## Yianno (Dec 11, 2014)

TaylorMadeCon said:


> So he is telling you what tools to use, and removing work you've done already. Just so you can re install it by hand?!
> This guy sounds like a lunatic. There is no way in hell that I would stick around for that. I'd also bill him for all the extra time it took to do it his way.


100% yes! The guy is nuts! When I was installing the pocket door he was even telling me how to do it. Even with the drywall it wasn't 100% touching the floor like 1/8 of an inch and he was even complaining about that


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## charlie828 (Feb 22, 2009)

"…makes racial comments on me." I won't stand for that for me, my crew, or anyone on my job. People who make these comments generally have a low sense of self worth as well as other debilitating head problems. Document well and don't cut him any slack at all. Sorry for your troubles.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Yianno said:


> Felt even worse then being an employee. You have no idea what the feeling was like working there




I would take the guy to court just to teach him a lesson after you posted that.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Did you get paid? If so, put it behind you and move on... don't let crazy make you crazy...

I'd still follow-up on the bathroom... they probably already know this guys MO...

Best of luck... 8^)


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

@ op


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

> Finished the job but I know deep down he isn't impressed as he commented he is teaching me.


Whether you realize it or not, he's right. I just hope you paid attention & learned from the valuable lesson he taught you.


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## stumbleandbleed (Jun 18, 2015)

Remember smart phone can record conversations with customers or anyone else for that matter. Should have gotten some of those racial remarks recorded as well as other problems he is bitching about. Email the finer points you have recorded to him and I bet his bottom lip quivers while listening. I record every meeting I walk into.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Recording conversations without their knowledge may not be legal there. Gotta check the state law first.


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

stumbleandbleed said:


> Remember smart phone can record conversations with customers or anyone else for that matter. Should have gotten some of those racial remarks recorded as well as other problems he is bitching about. Email the finer points you have recorded to him and I bet his bottom lip quivers while listening. I record every meeting I walk into.



I don't know the laws real well but I'm fairly sure in most cases you can not just go around recording conversations with out another persons consent. 

I'm also sure that trying to black mail a person generally does not work out in your favor.


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## stumbleandbleed (Jun 18, 2015)

I wasn't talking about black mailing anyone. Letting them hear first hand what a douche bag they are is a different story. I do go around recording conversations all the time. Most misunderstandings are just that. Letting some one hear the deal they made is enough. Court is not necessary.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

1985gt said:


> I don't know the laws real well but I'm fairly sure in most cases you can not just go around recording conversations with out another persons consent.
> 
> I'm also sure that trying to black mail a person generally does not work out in your favor.



Some states, like MO, only one person in the recorded conversation has to know it's being recorded for it to be legally used in court.


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

stumbleandbleed said:


> I wasn't talking about black mailing anyone. Letting them hear first hand what a douche bag they are is a different story. I do go around recording conversations all the time. Most misunderstandings are just that. Letting some one hear the deal they made is enough. Court is not necessary.


I bet as a general contractor you have no issues at all when people find out you go around and record all of their conversations.



pinwheel said:


> Some states, like MO, only one person in the recorded conversation has to know it's being recorded for it to be legally used in court.


All states would be different I would assume. I was in a car accident a few weeks ago where the other driver was at fault. Every time I gave a statement to my insurance company or theirs, it was asked if it could be recorded. I had nothing to hide so of course I said yes. Once they started the recording they let me know, then asked again if it was ok and again asked if I knew that the conversations were being recorded and if I gave my permission.

I figured it was so that if the case does go to trial that the recorded conversation wouldn't be a hold up trying to figure out if everyone knew they were being recorded or not.

In general I have no issues being recorded. If I know about it first.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

pinwheel said:


> Some states, like MO, only one person in the recorded conversation has to know it's being recorded for it to be legally used in court.


Not here. All parties must consent.


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

Yianno said:


> Felt even worse then being an employee. You have no idea what the feeling was like working there


Uh....yeah. I got a pretty good idea. Sounds worse than I've ever had but I had a couple real doozeys before too. That's why my contract contains this:

Contractor is solely responsible for securing all labor, materials, subcontractor work and other related items included in the Contract, and for scheduling, construction techniques and procedures, and the coordination of all trades and sequences hereunder.



Owner, Owner's agents, or any other parties are prohibited from directing, or attempting to direct in any way, the progress of the work. They are also prohibited from securing labor, materials, subcontractors or other items that substitute or supplant those included herein unless specifically authorized by Contractor in writing.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Question: How old is this customer ?


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## phoenixrjp (Aug 28, 2013)

Talk to this guy like you would talk to anybody else, and tell him to back off and let you do your job or
he can find someone else, life is to short to go thru this crap, I know , your rep and all that but I can tell you in 35 years of this business they all know to leave me alone or find someone else, and I work all the time. People know when people are assholes and don't take it out on you, important thing is to be honest, whether it hurts you or not. I would just rather give the money back and move on than go to work with a bad attitude and mad, is not worth it, heck just put an end to it either way, chances are he is already known and can't find anyone to work for him, and if your work is good and clean heck, he needs you, like I said just tell him to back off of find another, you'll live to fight another day my friend, doesn't have to be complicated


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## Yianno (Dec 11, 2014)

Didnt even het paid thats probably the best part. Can i send you the cheque at the end of the month next month cause im selling this place and you knoq closing costs etx but if you need money sooner call me and ill give you something but i am paying you in full

Im probably getting nothing at all


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Yianno said:


> Didnt even het paid thats probably the best part. Can i send you the cheque at the end of the month next month cause im selling this place and you knoq closing costs etx but if you need money sooner call me and ill give you something but i am paying you in full
> 
> Im probably getting nothing at all



Tel him you'll be right over. If he doesn't know how to fill out a check, you can stand there and instruct him.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

You know what I don't get? Why don't guys file liens? 

In most cases , it is so powerful .

I ve seen this over and over . guys get sucked into a job, get ran over by the client , then struggle to get paid .


I know, we think " I ll lose their good will, referrals, etc....". 

Let me tell you something : if they had any good will toward you , they would pay you, period . so, you ll lose them . you don't have them...nor, do you want them.

I ll go further: most of us can tell these people are bad news on the front side. No one ever pleased them, etc . I avoid them at all costs.

Angies list Is a good source of customers like this....they trust no one .

Write your contracts clear, get money to cover material at minimum, state draw points , stop work if not paid, lien the property correctly if circumstances call for it . you will get their attention .

Even the best attorneys fear liens .

I recently asked a client for a final check, answer was maybe. That Thursday , I filed a lien .
I was promptly paid .

Also, you think this will hurt your reputation? Rethink it...I want people to know that I won't mess around with non payment ....I want that reputation . I'm fair, and flexible, as long as there is honest communication, but I need the money to stay in business and warranty my work.


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