# tankless water heaters



## ozie55 (Oct 21, 2010)

What are your experiences with tankless water heaters on installs to customers. Want to take on the Navien and would like to know what you have experiences with them are.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Your tag says HVAC.
My experience with them has been that it requires a plumber. If they are electric, they also require an electrician.

If it is going in an existing residence I have seen very few electrical services that did not require an upgrade to meet the demand.


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## Flacan (Aug 28, 2007)

TxElectrician said:


> If it is going in an existing residence I have seen very few electrical services that did not require an upgrade to meet the demand.


True.


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## JonM (Nov 1, 2007)

Electric 2 circuits


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## William James (Mar 5, 2010)

Navien makes several different models. Your question is so vague it wreaks of HO. I don't even know what you're asking. Sorry, bad day. Water heaters, tank or tankless, are nothing to try to take on. 

Navien is an excellent brand, IMO.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

I like my tankless water heater.


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

I am a drywall contractor and have a shop where I clean tools in a "sink". My water heater gave up the ghost. Wondering your opinion on a tankless heater. My plumber doesn't think I would like it. I have had a twenty gallon electric for the last ten years. He dosen't think they get very hot. I don't need hot water, just warm. Have always run out of hot water using the tweny gallon and having the water turned on about half cold and half hot. What do you think?


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

Tim0282 said:


> I am a drywall contractor and have a shop where I clean tools in a "sink". My water heater gave up the ghost. Wondering your opinion on a tankless heater. My plumber doesn't think I would like it. I have had a twenty gallon electric for the last ten years. He dosen't think they get very hot. I don't need hot water, just warm. Have always run out of hot water using the tweny gallon and having the water turned on about half cold and half hot. What do you think?


 
depends on your budget.... it would be cheaper to to buy a 52 electric than a 20 gallon ele anyday....

as for a tankless sure if you got the cash to drop on it up front....but for your needs wouldnt be worth it


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

Thank you, Rex! Appreciate you reaffirming my gut feeling.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Tankless doesn't make sense in America, gas is dirt cheap.

For 300 bucks you can buy a 40 gal gas. How can you beat it?


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Tankless doesn't make sense in America, gas is dirt cheap.
> 
> For 300 bucks you can buy a 40 gal gas. How can you beat it?


 
yup:thumbsup:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

The funny thing is these have become a status symble for people Rex. It's like buying fancy clothes, I guess it makes people feel good.:laughing:

Mike


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> The funny thing is these have become a status symble for people Rex. It's like buying fancy clothes, I guess it makes people feel good.:laughing:
> 
> Mike


 
agreed....i try my best to push people away from them....but if they insist i tell them to do there own home work and then come back to me...i will install them but i word the invoice in a way that dosent make me responsible if there unhappy with it....


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Tankless doesn't make sense in America, gas is dirt cheap.
> 
> For 300 bucks you can buy a 40 gal gas. How can you beat it?


I can sit in the shower for an hour and a half and never run out of hot water.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I can sit in the shower for an hour and a half and never run out of hot water.


 
i can too...and not spend a dime other than the well pump and the circ pump on my wood boiler.....i also heat my entire house all the floors and the hot water from wood and its free!!

yus gettin the wood from my property takes some work but i enjoy that .....writing a check to the utility dont make me happy....

oh the bolier was home made and every piece of pipe and all materials were left overs from jobs that i got paid for....


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

i have yet to have anybody go for tankless...if you think about it..unless you use a large volume it would take 10+years to regain the intial investment and mods to elect, vent and gas

most people get them only to realize that now they need a power venter and by then they are in too far...i stick to gas hot water heaters...can not remember the last time i did a elect water heater


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## David Jones (Sep 17, 2010)

Timely Topic. I am about to pull the trigger on swicthing my entire house to propane for all appliances. And a tankless water heater was right at the top of list. It is totally my fault but and I don't mean to whynn but when I built my shower I got stupid and put in 9 body jets, two rain heads plus more. I can't get 20 minutes of hot water which kind of defeats the purpose. I thought propane tankless would solve that. 

THERES ALWAYS PUNCHOUT! I'd love to here options.


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## JonM (Nov 1, 2007)

Not everyone has natural gas available to them.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I can sit in the shower for an hour and a half and never run out of hot water.


That's great! That is always the selling point for tankless.

Has anybody questioned whether or not taking an 1 1/2 shower makes any sense.That's the worse possible selling point ever.

I suppose you could wash your hands for three days straight, I can wash mine in 30 seconds.:laughing:

Mike


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## JonM (Nov 1, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> That's great! That is always the selling point for tankless.
> 
> Has anybody questioned whether or not taking an 1 1/2 shower makes any sense.That's the worse possible selling point ever.
> .:laughing:
> ...



It depends, is Anna Kournikova in that shower with me?...:thumbup:
*
*


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

JonM said:


> It depends, is Anna Kournikova in that shower with me?...:thumbup:


Good point, in that case I would sleep in the shower:laughing:

Mike


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## nailit69 (Sep 8, 2010)

I just had to replace my HWH, I wanted to go tankless just because i'm very limited on space. I have gas at the street, about 75' away but by the time I bought the heater, trenched, laid the pipe, connected it at the house and paid for permits and connection fees it was over $2,000 and that's w/me doing all the work!

Second option was to go with an electric tankless model which I was very skeptical of. It required !120 amps! and an electric service upgrade and seeing as I just had a new 125amp service put in last year that wasn't going to happen either. That would have been $2,000 too.

Great idea these new heaters but for the $$$ i'd just put a regular one in.


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## jimmyb21 (Oct 1, 2010)

I wouldn't wish an electric tankless heater on my worst enemy. The gas models have their place mostly when space is limited. The main problem with them is the installers 8 out of 10 times don't bother to verify that there is enough gas supply available in the home. When these things are on, they're on, around 200,000 btu as opposed to around 50,000 on a standard heater. Another problem is people don't realize that they need annual service or it voids the warranty, most city water is on the hard side and these require being flushed to keep the heat exchanger clean. Also, once the maximum flow rate of the heater is met, the heater will automatically slow the flow so the heater can heat the water to the set temp. The only heater I know of that doesn't do this is made by Eternal. They're able to get around this by slowing the exhaust gas down, allowing more time for the heat to be exchanged to the water.

I think that they are a good technology and have their place in the market but there's other good choices out there. I really like the new hybrid heaters, both gas and electric.

The electric hybrids have a heat pump on them that pulls the heat out of the ambient air ( same process as your refridgerator in reverse ) as well as standard electric elements. They also act as a dehumidifier which is an added bonus. They are taller than standard units, require a room with a certain amount of cubic feet, approx. a 10 x 10 room, and they are condensing units so you have to have a place to drain or pump the condensation.

The gas hybrid units I think are my favorite, though I have not installed one yet. They are basically a tankless unit but have a 25 gallon reserve tank also so that eliminates the restriction of flow and the "cold water sandwich". They also do not require checking the gas supply. If you have a standard atmospherically vented heater, then your fine.

Another new heater that's out is the high effeciency 50 gal. gas, it's basically a standard heater but has a blower that pressurizes the combustion chamber, like a turbo effect, and tighter baffling of the exhaust so the heat from the exhaust has longer to exchange into the water ( that's why it needs the blower to blow the exhaust through the tighter baffling). It has all the same hook ups as a regular heater but does require a 120v outlet for the blower. It also does not qualify for the federal tax credit that the other models qualify for.

Why the hell did I just write all of that??:blink:
I must be getting old, Friday night and I'm writing about water heaters...:no::laughing:


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

jimmyb21 said:


> I wouldn't wish an electric tankless heater on my worst enemy.
> 
> I WOULD'NT wish to have anything but one........... I have been using a 60 amp model for years that I installed myself- --- It has been super effecient & we have all the hot water we need. There are just 2 of us.
> I stopped using oil or gas a few years ago & heat with pellets-so it is the perfect solution !!
> I would not wish to go back to the other ways !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jimmyb21 (Oct 1, 2010)

Mike, I've never had one so I retract my statement. I've just really never heard anything good about them so it's actually refreshing to hear you have one and like it, I may need to do some more research on them... How do you like your pellet stove? I was thinking about installing a wood burning stove in my home to heat with. Gotta get off the grid so to speak as much as possible:thumbup: Sorry to change the subject of the thread


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

Tim0282 said:


> I am a drywall contractor and have a shop where I clean tools in a "sink". My water heater gave up the ghost. Wondering your opinion on a tankless heater. My plumber doesn't think I would like it. I have had a twenty gallon electric for the last ten years. He dosen't think they get very hot. I don't need hot water, just warm. Have always run out of hot water using the tweny gallon and having the water turned on about half cold and half hot. What do you think?


Has your plumber had experience with them or is it just from hear say? 
I would not think twice about it. Something like a Bosch Powerstream RP3P should fufill your needs. They just require a 30a breaker with #10 awg wire. You can get one on ebay for $144 with shipping................


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

mrmike said:


> Has your plumber had experience with them or is it just from hear say?
> I would not think twice about it. Something like a Bosch Powerstream RP3P should fufill your needs. They just require a 30a breaker with #10 awg wire. You can get one on ebay for $144 with shipping................



I'm a floor guy, not a plumber, so excuse my ignorance. But is a 41 degree temp rise enough? If I'm not mistaken, ground temp around here is somewhere in the mid 50's, so that would put water temp in the mid 90's, right? Doesn't seem warm enough to me.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

jimmyb21 said:


> How do you like your pellet stove? I was thinking about installing a wood burning stove in my home to heat with. Gotta get off the grid so to speak as much as possible:thumbup


Thread drift; cool. :thumbsup:

You want convenience, or off the grid? With pellets, you're just exchanging one type of grid for another. Get a real stove that you can burn anything in, including furniture if the snow's too deep to scratch out regular firewood.

More work, but it doesn't need electricity to run. I've had one for 25 years in this house and wouldn't be without it.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

That's the exchange in life, work vs convenience. Electricity is still pretty cheap and it's already in the house.

Wood heat is awesome but you have to have time to gather wood and deal with it....or buy the wood.

I grew up in a house that was heated by a giant cast iron wood burning stove. I loved it, I miss it quite frankly. That type of heat is a different type of heat, man does that get hot. 

I really miss the days of our family cutting wood together and stacking it as a family. We once spent the entire summer cutting wood and had it shipped on a semi-truck. Back then the neighbors thought we were nuts when the truck showed up. As a kid maybe I did too. But ya know, I miss it, it was a great way to raise a family and we were very close back then.

I would imagine the wood burning stoves they have now days are more efficient than what we had but what we had was still pretty good. I can remember filling it at night with oak and waking up in the moning and putting a little more in.

We used to be a "green" country back then, wood burners rule!

I have a pellet stove and it's lame, pellets are expensive and it's doesn't involve the family.

Mike


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

Tinstaafl said:


> Thread drift; cool. :thumbsup:
> 
> You want convenience, or off the grid? With pellets, you're just exchanging one type of grid for another. Get a real stove that you can burn anything in, including furniture if the snow's too deep to scratch out regular firewood.
> 
> More work, but it doesn't need electricity to run. I've had one for 25 years in this house and wouldn't be without it.


 
I have burned wood in the past & it is great heat-but not enough control, to name a few cons. I will not put em down as I love to see people burning wood, as pellets, or solar, Geo-thermal whatever. Wood just didn't suit me i.e. , time, work, & my sinuses !!! But it works great for alot of people as do pellets. 
I have real stoves but they do rely on a little bit of electric....... also pellets are not anymore expensive than wood unless you have your own supply. 
I have a pellet stove in my living space for the spring & fall & a Pellet Hot air furnace in the basement for the Winter. Have a ramp going into the basement & can unload & stack 6 ton in 2 hrs & I'm done. Then just load em when needed. House is toasty warm regulated heat with just a little work involved.......


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

mrmike said:


> I have burned wood in the past & it is great heat-but not enough control, to name a few cons. I will not put em down as I love to see people burning wood, as pellets, or solar, Geo-thermal whatever. Wood just didn't suit me i.e. , time, work, & my sinuses !!! But it works great for alot of people as do pellets.
> I have real stoves but they do rely on a little bit of electric....... also pellets are not anymore expensive than wood unless you have your own supply.
> I have a pellet stove in my living space for the spring & fall & a Pellet Hot air furnace in the basement for the Winter. Have a ramp going into the basement & can unload & stack 6 ton in 2 hrs & I'm done. Then just load em when needed. House is toasty warm regulated heat with just a little work involved.......


 
outdoor wood boiler....is the absolute best way to heat with wood....no mess no worries about creosote....and you only have to split in to managble pieces...yes you gotta go out 1 time aday to load it but so what its free heat/free hot water/and free heated floors


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

I have an old wood stove in my garage that is tied into the duct system of my furnace, but I don't burn wood in it, I burn corncobs. They burn fairly clean, provide decent heat, and I can buy them from a local farmer for twenty two bucks a ton delivered.


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## jimmyb21 (Oct 1, 2010)

Thanks for the input on the stoves. I think I'm definitely going to install one some time in the near future. I don't mind a little work so I'll probably go with a unit that burns regular wood. The outdoor boiler seems like a cool idea but I think I wanna be able to see the fire... thanks for the input


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Outdoor boilers are very cool. Everybody I know that has one really likes it.

Have a beer and chuck some wood in....what's not to like about that?:laughing:

Mike


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## JonM (Nov 1, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Outdoor boilers are very cool. Everybody I know that has one really likes it.
> 
> Have a beer and chuck some wood in....what's not to like about that?:laughing:
> 
> Mike



The green people hate them....:blink:


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

JonM said:


> The green people hate them....:blink:


 
eff'em



if you burn truly seasoned wood in your OWB smoke isnt bad

now if you burn green wood/tires/oil/trash...yea thats why they hate them

im guilty of the above altho its rare that ill burn that stuff....95% of what i burn is seasoned


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