# 10,000 Gal +/- KOI POND



## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

how the hell is a rubber pond gonna look natural ?
When Moses parted the red sea there wasnt a mat at the bottom that said Rubbermaid


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

Painting is easy, anyone can do it, its the BS'ing the customer into paying you good money for doing it thats hard.


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## BobsLandscape (Jul 25, 2009)

The rubber liner keeps the soil from absorbing the water that's in the pond. It's invisible in a finished pond. Like studs in a house, they're there but once the drywall and paint go on they're not seen.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

BobsLandscape said:


> The rubber liner keeps the soil from absorbing the water that's in the pond. It's invisible in a finished pond. Like studs in a house, they're there but once the drywall and paint go on they're not seen.


So you paint the pond ?
Thats just crazy talk


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## BobsLandscape (Jul 25, 2009)

No, you don't paint the pond.

Hidng the rubber liner at shoreline is relatively easy. Bury it with landscaping, boulders, rocks, etc.

Nearer to the shoreline utilize aquatic plants. Shade lillies also make excellent habitat for fish.

In the shallows utilize features that draw the eye. Things like driftwood, semi submerged boulders, etc.

Unless you dive in w/ a mask and snorkel you won't see the rubber liner in a properly constructed pond.


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## Dustyrose (Feb 13, 2009)

BobsLandscape said:


> The materials he's using are toxic to fish. See my post above yours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I think you should have shared your knowlege with MZ when he originated this post. That way he would have had more information to help the HO build this pond more fish friendly or step away from the project.


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## BobsLandscape (Jul 25, 2009)

It's kind of hard when he keeps deleting his questions.

At least now when he's replacing fish at his expense he'll know why. Assuming he's offering a warranty on this construction.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I hate to say it but, the woman is right.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Dustyrose said:


> I think you should have shared your knowlege with MZ when he originated this post. That way he would have had more information to help the HO build this pond more fish friendly or step away from the project.


If you hired a "professional" to do a job at your house would you want him to learn how to do it as he did it from someone on the internet? :blink:


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

Everyone needs to start somewhere.

I have clients that have asked me to do work for them I have never done before. My general response is I will do it for no labor just the cost of materials. But the client needs to know what they are getting them self into.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I learn all my 'moves' on the internet thingy.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

world wide internets


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

MZ will get it done, this aint his first rodeo


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

BobsLandscape said:


> At least now when he's replacing fish at his expense he'll know why. Assuming he's offering a warranty on this construction.


 Technically it is the drive way guys construction so that is a way out right there. He is comming in to clean up someone elses mess right?
Personally I hate comming onto a job to fix something someone else has started and often charge more because of it. 
I might need to be quoted to make sure MZ sees this I might be on his ignore list. lol


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

ModernStyle said:


> MZ will get it done, this aint his first rodeo


The new,kinder and gentler modern......


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## Dustyrose (Feb 13, 2009)

JumboJack said:


> If you hired a "professional" to do a job at your house would you want him to learn how to do it as he did it from someone on the internet? :blink:


 
If I was the HO I would have done some serious research before I jumped into the project. The HO is at fault here. I think MZ has a customer who stated what he wanted (right or wrong) and MZ is trying to oblige. (again. right or wrong).

Now I know damn well that there are aquariums out there with just a sealent on them. I just saw one in a trade magazine. It was a great big aquarium finished with SW products. I can't remember details. It was in one of the SW trade magazines. 

Not to mention the Toledo Zoo has beautiful aquariums that are just sealed concrete. With that said, there is a product out there suitable for fish.


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

what about pool plaster?


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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

OK, it's 1:30AM and I'm a bit buzzed but appreciate the input... Now if Bob had read the original post carefully... I'm fixing someone elses F-up to the best of my ability. The HO wanted to just fill it with water and add a few hundreds (Knowing him now, maybe thousands) of Dollars worth of KOI in this pond. (Thats why it's over 3' deep & 10,000 Gallons)

Anyway... When I was starting out with PONDS I built my own after a lot of research Plus, I was the "POND GUY" at a National pet store and the only difference here is, I did use a liner on my pond but it's under the concrete which I coated with FLEXBOND thinset and in 5 years since I built it...Not one crack not one dead fish from "Asthma" or "Chronic Brochitis" or "Cancer" and in all that time, one month ago I took out all my fish and drained it for no other reason than to check it for cracks...NOT ONE!

Now since this pond I'm "FIXING" to the best of my knowlege, Again...that was built by "DRIVEWAY BUILDERS" I think I'm doing a pretty good job. At least I sealed it! and I'm not going to just fill it with water tomorrow (Well, today) I'm going to scrub it down and wash away as much of the toxins in the Thinset (If any) and I already told the home owner not to add any fish until this pond has run for the minimum of 2 weeks. And (Like I did) add a dozen feeders to the pond and if they last a week... Heron forbid (haha that was funny!) Then he can start to add any fish he wants.

Bob, I do appreciate the input but it was all negative, Now we all know you are an expert landscaper, Pond builder and you poop golden eggs (Just kidding) and in a perfect world this pond would have been done correctly but I gotta work with what I gotta work with. I don't like the waterfall/Filter thing the HO bought but I gotta use it because "His friend" recommended it and he spent about $1200 on just the fall and the pump.

At 8am today Sunday the 2nd I will be plumbing this monstrosity "Big Bahama 38in Fall/Biofilter" using a "Torpedo T10000 Pump". A little advice would have gone a lot farther than a little criticism. This was (my Idea)









This is what the HO wants... This is what he gets!









I'll be running the plumbing into the front of this filter/fall so that if there is ever a leak, it stays in the body of water. Just setting this thing in place and camo'ing with rock is going to be a (BIG) job.

Lets hope the KOI survive.... Mine are doing great in my little 1000 Gal pond

Thanks!


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

*Looks nice!*

I've kind of missed the whole post till last night. 

Looks like you found a solution by your self. Looks good.

My thought was KERDI or DITRA then a skim coat of some kind. Works for shower pans---might have worked here. Sorry Manny I was asleep at the switch.

My only pond experience used rubber liner ,which would not be appropriate on this pond with its exposed edges.

MIKE

p.s. check PH and cloromene levels before puting in any "test fish" .


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

Ugh!
Put a liner in it. Better safe than sorry. In time, you won't even see the liner, it will be covered with a green moss, hair algae looking stuff. At least that is what my sister's pond liner looks like. Her's looks totally natural, this "D" monstrosity can never look natural. The guy's made a beautiful driveway though.
Steve




MZ-HANDYMAN said:


> OK, it's 1:30AM and I'm a bit buzzed but appreciate the input... Now if Bob had read the original post carefully... I'm fixing someone elses F-up to the best of my ability. The HO wanted to just fill it with water and add a few hundreds (Knowing him now, maybe thousands) of Dollars worth of KOI in this pond. (Thats why it's over 3' deep & 10,000 Gallons)
> 
> Anyway... When I was starting out with PONDS I built my own after a lot of research Plus, I was the "POND GUY" at a National pet store and the only difference here is, I did use a liner on my pond but it's under the concrete which I coated with FLEXBOND thinset and in 5 years since I built it...Not one crack not one dead fish from "Asthma" or "Chronic Brochitis" or "Cancer" and in all that time, one month ago I took out all my fish and drained it for no other reason than to check it for cracks...NOT ONE!
> 
> ...


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## painter213 (Nov 2, 2008)

For a pond liner a Polyurea over Geotextile Fabric works wonders. Here is one link to a good PDF page on Koi pond construction. And I agree. Placing a Thinset over concrete is not going to hold water. It needs to have a Membrane installed to properly hold water. Just Googel Tim Zuber and you will find a lot of information on Koi Pond Construction.

http://www.makc.com/SprayLiner_Moore.pdf

http://www.makc.com/cs.pdf


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Guys, its all ready F**ked. The drive way guys did that.
> 
> What is MZ going to do F it up even worse?
> 
> ...


Move it to the DIYer site?

Cause I thought this site was for professionals who either do the job correctly or tell the homeowner to find somebody else if they don't want to pay what it takes to do it right.

I guess that sh*t's over with and now the title to the site should be changed to hacktalk.com. :furious:


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Jt - try again.
> 
> You're an assistant construction supervisor? I'm going to assume you possibly understand construction.
> 
> Rule #1 is to spec materials based on intended results not brand name.


Yes that is true,but MOST people would understand the references of comparing, Glacier,American Standard,Moen or Kohler as to quality or lack there off when used as a "for instance".

I ALSO understand when someone such as a GC, Company Owner WHOMEVER says," I DON'T care if this is not to your liking we ARE NOT starting from scratch! YOU figure out the best "fix" based on what's at hand!"

It's NOT always cut and dried as to wishes and wants.

If a good customer has a TRUSTED contractor sometimes he beleives he has a BETTER chance of salvaging a bad job by using him and NOT getting a # out of a phone book. (IRREGAURDLESS of his "expertise" in certain feilds. )

He can't be much of a victim here after all HE had the driveway guys pour the Fcking thing to begin with!

In this case if Manny BID the job from start to finish came up with THAT then "hack" would be in order. 

To try to rectify a bad situation to the best of your abilities given peramiters does not make you one!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

jtpro said:


> To try to rectify a bad situation to the best of your abilities given peramiters does not make you one!


There is no rectifying a situation if you don't fix it.

Rectify means -- _to set right, to correct by removing errors._

Doing the job wrong is not rectifying.

*Thinset - is not fixing the problem, is not setting it right, is not removing errors.*


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Well then, quit responding to him. Ignore him. Maybe he will go away.

Maybe we should call the HO and tell him what an idiot he was for having the drive way guys por a ****ty pond.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Gotta say, I agree with Mike this time (seems to be happening a lot lately)
We are not just trying to "buy some time" when we do a project. Especially a big dollar pond such as this. Now if he explains to the homeowner that this is just a bandaid, and may only last a year, then if thats what the homeowner agrees to, I guess so be it. That being said, I will always steer clear of this kinds of projects whenever possible. Who knows what went on that you can't see. This will probably not end well for our dear comrade Manny.


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

Must be nice to live in areas where you can pick and choose your jobs and have ppl with endless money. I dont know how many times we've been on jobs that were screwed up by someone else and the homeowner says "the monies almost gone do the best you can to make this work for now". Is it done right everytime? Nope but what are you to do, not work at all? That might be great for some of you but i cant make it happen. So be it call me a hack or whatever you want but sometimes you can leave a job that might not be done to the perfect spec. As long as its safe and the homeowner understands it might not be a long term solution whats a person to do?


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## deckman22 (Oct 20, 2007)

This whole deal is just stupid. First you have a dumbarse HO trying to get a pond on the cheap. Then you got Manny, who will take whatever is thrown his direction, just to make a buck. 

Maybe he will try to fix it to the best of his abilities, but will it be right? By the time this guys is done spending money fixing his pond, he might spend what it would have cost to do right in the first place. 

I have no pity for this HO, he's getting what he deserves, Manny. 

Must be a tough way to make a living, jumping into s..t piles head first.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Warren said:


> Gotta say, I agree with Mike this time (seems to be happening a lot lately)
> We are not just trying to "buy some time" when we do a project. Especially a big dollar pond such as this. Now if he explains to the homeowner that this is just a bandaid, and may only last a year, then if thats what the homeowner agrees to, I guess so be it. That being said, I will always steer clear of this kinds of projects whenever possible. Who knows what went on that you can't see. This will probably not end well for our dear comrade Manny.


Fixing something that was done incorrectly in the fist place and not making it right is wrong...errr something like that.:laughing:
All of the "experts" ie: people that know a little somthin' sonthin' about pond construction say that the repairs he is doing are wrong.The repercussions could range from leaking all over again to dead fish.

This is not the same thing as say a painter painting a bedroom and needing to R/R a ceiling fan.It is more like the painter being asked to replace a panel.And then coming to the internets and asking how to do it...


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Not without :
> 
> #1 correcting the fukc up.
> #2 reinstalling the product correctly
> ...


Not incorrectly 

Adequately enough to satisfy, code, the homeowner and myself.

At the end of the day I would have liked to repaired it differently or pulled it out and started over but their budgets were not sufficient to accommodate the best option.

I can go to *any* job and pick it a part and find countless of flaws that is easily accomplished.

For me it is not a defend MZ thread. 

I think we just a sick of guys asking a few questions and getting kicked in the nuts every time.

Why MZ got the sympathy vote and this sparked a few of us to defend guys asking for help I don't know but it obviously was noted by enough of us that we said something about it.

Look I see guys post some of the crazy crap here asking for help. Some of them need the kick in the nutz, but some of them just need a sense of direction and a bit of help to get them on the right path.

So you are say CT is for seasoned Professionals only and newbies are to say out?

You can spin my words or the discussion anyway you see fit, thats cool your good at it. I have seen your earlier post to see *your *progression to being a better contractor by being a member on this site.

Lets give the new guys in the profession who deserve it the same opportunity as well.


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

Other people's **** ups land in three categories.

1. It can be fixed (may or may not be cheap)
2. It can be made to _look like_ it's been fixed
3. You need to start over from scratch.

Re: #1-If it's something I can handle, I will let the HO know exactly what they are getting into. Then it is up to them if I get the job or not.

Re: #3-They NEVER want to hear that, but if it's within my qualifications, again, it's up to them whether I get the job or not.

What's that you say? I skipped #2? I can't hear you...I'm running faster than the speed of sound. But don't worry....you still have craigslist.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Trust me, I wouldn't worry about it. The HO will hold totaly responsibility since he will be giving MZ a 1099 anyways.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

rbsremodeling said:


> Not incorrectly
> 
> Adequately enough to satisfy, code, the homeowner and myself.
> 
> ...


Rory,I totally understand where you are coming from.But MZ did get advise from people that know how to do this kind on thing..And he still is going with thinset to "fix" the problem.An I'm sure it wont leak,...For a while...And who know's what will happen to any fish that get to live in it.

And "Well,that's what the customer wanted done" or "The customer did not want to spend the money to do it right"..Is that really an excuse to do it wrong?


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## S Winklepleck (Jul 31, 2009)

Manny is trying to do what we all are trying to do when we go to work. Make money. It's not his fault the HO is moron, and so what if he's not doing it exactly the right way? The HO is not going to fork out the $$ to start over, but maybe some of you don't have the experience of working for people without an unlimited bank account. It's not Manny's screw up, so he shouldn't have to start it over out of his own pocket.

In the end, I think Manny's best option is going to be to simply not guarantee the work. "I'm going to do my best to help you out, but I can't make any guarantees that this is going to work. Unfortunately, your decision to act as your own contractor and hire the wrong people for the job from the start is either going to cost you the money to start over, or the pond will ultimately not preform to your expectations. There's nothing I can do to fix that, but I will do what I can to help you." Then have the HO sign a release before going any further on the project.

OR Manny could have said "To hell with my bills! I don't need to pay them! I'm not going to take this job eventhough it's the only thing on the table right now... Something else will come up soon, I'll get lucky!"

Seriously, bashing the **** out of him is NOT constructive. If everyone on this forum was so all knowing as you pretend to be, then this site would be nothing more than a self-glorification forum meant to show off pics of your work and to have everyone else pat you on the back for it.

I'm not saying you should say what he's doing is OK, I'm saying simply to offer him the alternatives to what he's doing because he's not in a typical situation. He needs advice, or he wouldn't have posted. 

Overreact less, seriously. It's a Koi pond, not a first class hotel. If it fails, it's the HO's stupidity that caused it, and it's not going to get anyone hurt. If Manny had been on the job from the start, obviously it would have been done differently. 

If this is the sort of bull**** to expect from seeking advice on here, I don't see why anyone would want to bother. Such negative feed back is only going to cause drama.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

S Winklepleck said:


> Manny is trying to do what we all are trying to do when we go to work. Make money. It's not his fault the HO is moron, and so what if he's not doing it exactly the right way? The HO is not going to fork out the $$ to start over, but maybe some of you don't have the experience of working for people without an unlimited bank account. It's not Manny's screw up, so he shouldn't have to start it over out of his own pocket.
> 
> In the end, I think Manny's best option is going to be to simply not guarantee the work. "I'm going to do my best to help you out, but I can't make any guarantees that this is going to work. Unfortunately, your decision to act as your own contractor and hire the wrong people for the job from the start is either going to cost you the money to start over, or the pond will ultimately not preform to your expectations. There's nothing I can do to fix that, but I will do what I can to help you." Then have the HO sign a release before going any further on the project.
> 
> ...


He did receive advise on how to do it right.And still chooses to do it wrong.
If you don't understand why that would rub some of us the wrong way then I don't know what to tell you.

This site is called *Contractor Talk*..Not Handyman talk,not "Whats the best way fix this as cheap as I can and make a buck Talk".
If you ask for advise I would hope that one could expect to receive good sound advise from PROFESSIONALS on how to do it right...Maybe I'm just a dreamer.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

JumboJack said:


> He did receive advise on how to do it right.And still chooses to do it wrong.
> *If you don't understand why that would rub some of us the wrong way then I don't know what to tell you.*


There is no excuse for not liking Manny :laughing: 

And which way did he rub you:blink:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

rbsremodeling said:


> There is no excuse for not liking Manny :laughing:
> 
> *And which way did he rub you*:blink:


Stay out of my personal life.


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

Yeah I think this is a borderline DIY/CT post. Times are tough but would I have posted it up here ? :no: But I am a researching nut. (thats why I spend so much time here). I would have done a s***load of research before I even unloaded my tools and found out what options were available to salvage the situation. Then presented the options available to the HO.

One more thing: I would have at least read the bag..............:laughing:


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## S Winklepleck (Jul 31, 2009)

JumboJack said:


> He did receive advise on how to do it right.And still chooses to do it wrong.
> If you don't understand why that would rub some of us the wrong way then I don't know what to tell you.
> 
> This site is called *Contractor Talk*..Not Handyman talk,not "Whats the best way fix this as cheap as I can and make a buck Talk".
> If you ask for advise I would hope that one could expect to receive good sound advise from PROFESSIONALS on how to do it right...Maybe I'm just a dreamer.


Let's go over the suggestions.

First real bit of advice came from Bob. The whole thing is done wrong, it should be done this way. HO is not gonna fork over the cash to start over, so that's not an option for Manny.

Next real bit of advice came from Mike Finley: You should have used X product instead, followed up by a series of insults. Well, that suggestion came TODAY. Manny was already at work, so he didn't see it. What, he's supposed to be psychic and know what's being posted even as he labors away in the field?

There have been suggestions and advice, but considering the HO into the equation, most have not been feasible. Some have come too late. Maybe that's his fault for taking the post down, but bashing the hell out of him when he's not even here to read the posts is pretty lame


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

strathd said:


> Yeah I think this is a borderline DIY/CT post. Times are tough but would I have posted it up here ? :no: But I am a researching nut. (thats why I spend so much time here). I would have done a s***load of research before I even unloaded my tools and found out what options were available to salvage the situation. Then presented the options available to the HO.
> 
> One more thing: I would have at least read the bag..............:laughing:


How about this..You are doing a bathroom...The customer is running low on funds...They say to you "What's with all this orange paper for the shower walls and shower pan...That costs too much.Just put the tile right on the drywall and the plywood floor,it will be ok." Who would do something like this so they could put food on the table?


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

S Winklepleck said:


> Let's go over the suggestions.
> 
> First real bit of advice came from Bob. The whole thing is done wrong, it should be done this way. HO is not gonna fork over the cash to start over, so that's not an option for Manny.
> 
> ...


Did you miss the stuff about a liner?
Thinset...Really?:blink:


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## davitk (Oct 3, 2008)

I'll jump on this train wreck!! :whistling

MZ, if I'm not on ignore here's my project at my place this weekend, my "Pond" has turned into a terrain park for the kids, they want concrete!!

I've got about 100,500,000 yards of blue clay, about as water tight as it comes. I'll trade you even up.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

davitk said:


> I'll jump on this train wreck!! :whistling
> 
> MZ, if I'm not on ignore here's my project at my place this weekend, my "Pond" has turned into a terrain park for the kids, they want concrete!!
> 
> I've got about 100,500,000 yards of blue clay, about as water tight as it comes. I'll trade you even up.


Terrain park?For skateboards and bikes?

Cool Dad!:thumbsup:


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## S Winklepleck (Jul 31, 2009)

JumboJack said:


> How about this..You are doing a bathroom...The customer is running low on funds...They say to you "What's with all this orange paper for the shower walls and shower pan...That costs too much.Just put the tile right on the drywall and the plywood floor,it will be ok." Who would do something like this so they could put food on the table?


It's not a bathroom. It's not something the HO is going to have to deal with rot or water damage to his home on. He's going to lose water, and maybe ultimately have to decide it's not going to be a Koi pond, but just a water feature on his property. This isn't somthing that if Manny keeps going they way he's going is going to cause mold and rot issues and jeopardize the safety of the family living within the home. There's a very big difference here.


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## S Winklepleck (Jul 31, 2009)

JumboJack said:


> Did you miss the stuff about a liner?
> Thinset...Really?:blink:


 Did you miss the part where the HO refused to have a liner put in?


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

S Winklepleck said:


> Did you miss the part where the HO refused to have a liner put in?


OK I give up..I guess there are guy's that will only do it right and guy's that will do what ever they have to to get a check,or cash..
Where I live we can have our license suspended or revoked for doing substandard work..

From the CSLB website.
7109 Willful disregard of plans and specifications, or failing to
complete the job in a good and workmanlike manner

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Resources/Newsletters/ContractorNewsletter2009Spring.pdf


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

This thread has turned into a for MZ or against MZ poll. Looks like another one that is about to bite the dust fellas.


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

JumboJack said:


> How about this..You are doing a bathroom...The customer is running low on funds...They say to you "What's with all this orange paper for the shower walls and shower pan...That costs too much.Just put the tile right on the drywall and the plywood floor,it will be ok." Who would do something like this so they could put food on the table?


 Maybe you misintrepeted my post. I am all about doing things right. :thumbsup: Thats what I meant about doing research.
Fortunately I have never been in the situation you used as an example. I do it right or not at all !!!!

Hell, back in the 80's I quit a few framing crews because I would not conform to they're sub-standard ways. 

I have allways tried to do the job the right way even if it cost's me money. It's done right, I go home and feel good about it. :thumbsup:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

rbsremodeling said:


> I have seen your earlier post to see *your *progression to being a better contractor by being a member on this site.


You're damn right. As I've said before I've probably lost $100,000.00 in lost productivity due to this site over the years, but I've probably also gained $100,000.00 of knowledge so it's a good wash. :thumbsup:




rbsremodeling said:


> Lets give the new guys in the profession who deserve it the same opportunity as well.


Good idea. 

I venture the first step would be to not have contractortalk.com filled up with hack ass posts about using flexbond to waterproof concrete and the response is - cool, great idea, post some more pics. 

But the best is yet to come.

MZ will be back at some point to tell us all how he's the best and thinset is what you use, been doing it for years...and why are you screwing up my threads by spreading facts in them? blah blah blah...


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

Workaholic said:


> This thread has turned into a for MZ or against MZ poll. Looks like another one that is about to bite the dust fellas.


Is this your first MZ thread ? :whistling


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Ugggggghhhhhh, I cant believe I read the whole thing.
> 
> That pond looks retarded. Some drunk idiot is going to drive into it.


Yeah, I don't get that pond design either. But proper landscaping and the water fall feature could radically transfrom it.

Is it just me, but that pond doesn't look anywhere near 10,000 gallons. I have a (approx) 10 -12,000 gallon pond in my back yard - ok it IS my back yard - and it looks a helluva lot bigger than that. Is that really 4' deep?


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

strathd said:


> Is this your first MZ thread ? :whistling


LOL no. After he publicly included me in his thanks for one of his threads tanking I usually just watch them run their course.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

Originally Posted by *jtpro*  
_If in a case like this someone says,” I inherited this and this is the best solution I came up with, thoughts?” _



Mike Finley said:


> This in my opinion is the mentality of all HACKS. It breeds hacks and propigates our industry with HACKS. It's the mentality and justification process all hacks use to steal from customers.


Then, by your definition above, ANYONE who does remodeling or repair work is hack.

Should you change your title to "Bathroom Hack?"

Just saying.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

strathd said:


> Maybe you misintrepeted my post. I am all about doing things right. :thumbsup: Thats what I meant about doing research.
> Fortunately I have never been in the situation you used as an example. I do it right or not at all !!!!
> 
> Hell, back in the 80's I quit a few framing crews because I would not conform to they're sub-standard ways.
> ...


I know..I was agreeing with you.:thumbsup:


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Most of this bad blood is just spillover from all of the messes the MODs have been having to deal with lately. I can't call a guy a "hack" if I haven't seen his work--but I've not really been following the various threads lately that have led to all of this hostility. 

If you'll re-read the thread, MZ makes the case early on that he's an expert, or has at least worked as one, on pond building. According to him, he's built several without a problem. But even if you grant him that--he describes materials and methods that don't conform to the conventional wisdom of how to build a healthy, long-lasting, aesthetically attractive pond--irregardless of the way the project was turned over to him.

I'll leave the finer points to others who build ponds for a living...but I can tell you for damn sure, Flexbond thinset is not a concrete sealer, period--and that's really where this train left the tracks (for me anyway).

As professionals, we all have to stear our clients toward the best materials and methods available--to achieve an end result that is long lasting, aesthetically pleasing, and economically efficient. No one has an infinite amount of money to throw at something, and of course we've ALL made compromises at one time or another to help our clients save money, win the job, and/or deal with a mess left behind by someone who didn't know what they were doing.

I give him credit for trying to think outside the box to make the best of a bad situation. (Although the Dryvit idea was definitely out there.)

But I have to side with Mike as well:

We have a purported expert, posting to a professional forum about using methods and materials that are not professional and are not serving the best interests of his client--irregardless of how the project was turned over to him and irregardless of what the client says they want.

If a client told me not to put shingles on the roof of an addition, I'd have to convince him why that wasn't in his best interest--not throw sand up there because it was on sale at home depot.


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## Jmfocus (May 9, 2009)

Sometimes you need to pass on a job when the HO refuses to pay to have a job done right. This is a good example of that. As I stated before, this pond will leak. When it does, the HO will have forgotten that he was made aware of that fact and he will probably expect it to be fixed by the guy who set it up for him for free. When expensive fish die.... same thing. As I said before and Bob stated as well, this is old tech, and will leak without a liner. And honestly, it's ugly! 

Today, ponds are not built this way. We use fish safe liner, real rocks, sand, boulders, pond foam, fish caves, and plants. No concrete. They are built to run 24hours. They are complete ecosystems that thrive and look like they had always been there. Sometimes they are "pondless" (which do not need to run 24hrs). They can be small and they can be huge, big enough to swim in.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Lets leave MZ out of the equation the problem for me is the treatment of the new guys trying to learn or contractors asking for help.

When anyone reaches out for help and asks a question they get kicked their nuts kicked in why does this happen so often?

Are we not here to help each other out and share knowledge as well as have some laughs.

The ego's on here get soooo overbearing at times.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

All I gotta say is okay, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt he's probably never even heard of Mapei before. (Being a self-professed tile expert I find that strange but ... okay whatever.)

But even if that's the case. I got 2 words ---Hydraulic cement. 

If he is old school, how much older does it get then that? :blink:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

rbsremodeling said:


> Lets leave MZ out of the equation the problem for me is the treatment of the new guys trying to learn or contractors asking for help.
> 
> When anyone reaches out for help and asks a question they get kicked their nuts kicked in why does this happen so often?
> 
> ...


Oh geeze Rory...

Re-read Chris' post #115 and get off the cross please. 

Anybody who reaches out for help gets kicked in the nuts?  Please. 

How many cases of Grey Goose did MZ ship to you and how long is your contract to run for?


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> I venture the first step would be to not have contractortalk.com filled up with hack ass posts about using flexbond to waterproof concrete and the response is - cool, great idea, post some more pics.
> 
> MZ will be back at some point to tell us all how he's the best and thinset is what you use, been doing it for years...and why are you screwing up my threads by spreading facts in them? blah blah blah...


I get where you are coming from. 

And it would be doing me, MZ, and probably anyone else who comes here looking for useful information a much better turn if guys could try to post more factual information about what materials and techniques SHOULD be used on a project like this - considereing the circumstances (I've seen about three of those posts) and fewer posts ranting about hacks, ignorance, etc. (about thirty of those posted).

I see a lot more posts about what people wouldn't do, shouldn't do, or how stupid an approach is, than what people have done succussfully or should do on a project.

I can do a few things very, very well; but I want to learn much more about other types of construction. I want to know what materials work best, and where.

A post that says "Jees, haven't you HEARD of MAPEI??? " is much less useful to me than "Hey, check out Mapei product so-and-so. It's the best type of material for this project: here is why."


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## RayGoerdt (Nov 13, 2008)

I hope all works out with the pond Manny, I am not at all into the pond work and so could not offer advice. I do see that you stuck with it in spite of all the cr*p.:thumbsup:

Ray


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)




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## MZ-HANDYMAN (Jun 7, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I just got a warm and fuzzy feeling.
> 
> At least you told him it was F'd.
> 
> ...


I just saw this as a fun and challenging weekend project.

About 2 weeks ago I did mention that I was considering doing this project... Ya think I got advice or Jokes?

So here I am getting beat down for no reason other than getting beat down. I started this thread just to show what I was doing and share my progress or lack thereof... Look at this picture








Now, tell me you wouldn't want your customer to have the same look on his face right after you finished hooking up a few PVC pipes with rubber 90's. the look on his face makes up for all the nonsense comments I get.... Thats the look on all my clients faces while I'm working and when i'm done.

Look at this picture...








The (((HOMEOWNER))) jumped into the pond give me a rock piling break.

Here is the (Still unfinished) end result. Plumbing is complete for now.








Now... I'll log out and view the thread as a guest and look at all the IGNORED comments (Without responding to them)

Still love you guys! I can take a kicking and keep on ticking!
THE END!


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

:laughing::w00t::1eye::lol::balloon::thumbup:



WarnerConstInc. said:


> Trust me, I wouldn't worry about it. The HO will hold totaly responsibility since he will be giving MZ a 1099 anyways.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I hope you can make some lemonade out of those lemons MZ. Your amigo looks muy bien!


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

Did I read this right? Did you fill in a pond? You killed all of those fish, turtles & eels for a place to ride bicycles? You beast!!!!!!:furious:
Steve



davitk said:


> I'll jump on this train wreck!! :whistling
> 
> MZ, if I'm not on ignore here's my project at my place this weekend, my "Pond" has turned into a terrain park for the kids, they want concrete!!
> 
> I've got about 100,500,000 yards of blue clay, about as water tight as it comes. I'll trade you even up.


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

MZ-HANDYMAN said:


> I just saw this as a fun and challenging weekend project.


Those are the best kind.

Personally, I might have passed on that job. But I do want to seethe finished project.

And if you see those driveway guys,give them a slap in the head and let them know there are no straight lines in nature. the front of that thing just kills it, IMO.


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

ChainsawCharlie said:


> Those are the best kind.
> 
> Personally, I might have passed on that job. But I do want to seethe finished project.
> 
> And if you see those driveway guys,give them a slap in the head and let them know there are no straight lines in nature. the front of that thing just kills it, IMO.


 I prefer the old avatar Charlie.


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## HanerEnterprise (Apr 19, 2009)

Looking good Manny. Keep up the polishing!


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

How much did the rocks end up costing? I can't believe how expensive friggin ROCKS can be.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

After spending (way too much) time reading this thread, there are 2 things that are painfully obvious to me. If you don't know what you're getting into and come to the internet for advice:
1) you have little to NO idea who's giving you that advice on the other end of the monitor....even if you're on a "pro" forum.
2) the "advice" you're getting is FREE. If you are receiving it from a true pro, remember, he most likely has gone through the training, trials and tribulations already. If you don't like the FREE advice or the BS that comes with it, you should probably not be asking in the first place.

That said, MZ also lost me with the flexible sealing thinset comment. I don't know him nor will I assume all his jobs are this way but I certainly see why some guy are upset with this thread.

Maybe Nathan needs a handymantalk.com?

Good luck with the rest of the project.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

Lots of guys getting into handyman services these day, variety is the spice of life and all


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

MZ-HANDYMAN said:


> jtpro,
> Thanks! and I do have pics and even have video of the whole process... I just cleaned out about 50+ pounds of overgrowth on my pond and it still needs more trimming.
> 
> 
> ...


No you read it right.

I was just commentating on the fact that I view this site as a form of a modern day spit balling session .

MOST jobsites you’re on, if you walk up to a cluster Fk with several other guys you try to collectively bounce around ideas as to how to start from that point and move forward. 

It’s understood that tearing it down to ‘nil and starting from scratch is the IDEAL and CORRECT way to do it. 

We just understand that we live in the REAL WOLRD and THAT is NOT an option.(unless we like sitting at home while others get paid to do what "we won't") 

I’ve NEVER heard people screaming at each other calling others hacks for having less experience! 

Simply saying things like, “DUDE I know THAT won’t work and this is why” followed by a humorous example as to an early experience they had that turned out like shiz!

On here it’s easy to hit a couple search engines up like Google or Bing copy and paste some info and give the illusion you’re an elitist prick that can AND has done NO WRONG!

Can you imagine a dochebag walking away from the group for an hour or so, he comes back, the others are dirty and grimey knee deep in the shiz storm trying to get the work done so they can move on and he says, ”Hey why didn’t you HACKS try this product or that application?!” 

Funny as I recall BEFORE laws where more well defined those guys USUALLY got "talked to" by day’s end and REALIZED the difference between CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and just plain criticism.

Be glad to see the vid of your pond Manny on Youtube or whatever. 

ALSO…….more visual “info” like you posted in the member pic area. As I am doing AHEM “research” :whistlingon American women in the world of Motor………………….FK IT MORE T&A of biker babes PLEASE!!!! :clap:


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

Longest thread I have ever followed without tits in it. Post up F***ers


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

Scribbles said:


> Longest thread I have ever followed without tits in it. Post up F***ers


 :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: BOBIES :clap:

AS TO YOU Mr."Angus" :laughing: or "The colonel" FUNNIEST FKIN' SNL I have EVER seen!:thumbup:


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

Scribbles said:


> Longest thread I have ever followed without tits in it. Post up F***ers


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## HusqyPro (Aug 3, 2009)

custrel said:


> Bob,
> 
> Do you have any good links related to this? I have some books and pond magazines, and I'm always on the lookout for more natural ways to filter the water.
> 
> I don't have Koi - just gold fish - and I'm not really concerned with 'crystal clear' water since 80% of my pond is covered by waterlillies and various other plants.


Water Shapes magazine had a couple of articles in the last year on this new technique. Subscription is free to water feature contractors. Check out Water Garden News while you're at it, it's also free.

Supposedly Savio is developing a new style pump just for this type of building.

It's relatively new and I expect this method to become the new standard in luxury pond construction.

By the way this is BobsLandscape, Nathan keeps deleting my accounts. He also blocked my ISP so I have special software that changes my ISP every 60 seconds.


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

Way to be discreet, Bob. 

You didn't have to tell us who you were. That user name was a dead giveaway.


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## HusqyPro (Aug 3, 2009)

Eh, I'm not too worried about being discreet. There's limitless email and ISP's out there for me to use. Eventualy Nathan will get tired of banning me and let it go.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

jtpro said:


> MOST jobsites you’re on, if you walk up to a cluster Fk with several other guys you try to collectively bounce around ideas as to how to start from that point and move forward.
> 
> It’s understood that tearing it down to ‘nil and starting from scratch is the IDEAL and CORRECT way to do it.
> 
> We just understand that we live in the REAL WOLRD and THAT is NOT an option.(unless we like sitting at home while others get paid to do what "we won't")


You really don't get it do you?

Why are you fixated on having to tear it down. Do you simply not get the concept that thinset will not repair cracks in concrete and has no water proofing properties.

I guess you simply miss the point that when you are your boys are standing around looking at your "cluster Fk" that the goal is to come up with the correct solution to the problem, not the wrong one just because no one knows their ass from a hole in the ground.


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