# Yes haw...=/



## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I just kinda wake up and go to work in the morning.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

One other thing regarding the guy who wasn't paying his child support. Why weren't you taking that out of his check and sending it to them?


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Stephen H said:


> so many things going on in this story--- I just have to laugh.
> wonder if ANY of the people crawling around spreading salt on this ice covered roof---- are covered by workers comp?


Everyone is a sub, carries liability, and has a signed Independent Contractor agreement and w-9 so no. 



Stephen H said:


> just SO MUCH going on there--- guys quitting in a huff---- dudes and their "girlfriends" crawling around on a roof, spreading salt on an ice covered roof----- roofing in january---- and on and on and on.... too many things to count.


funny thing about the girls is they are the only ones who made it all year. Not a single dude made it all year, and my girlfriend shingles




Stephen H said:


> If there are ANY contractors out there wondering why so many customers would strongly prefer to deal with a company using real ,honest to gosh on the books employees??????
> read this thread!
> stephen


I roof circles around 99 of 100 employees. ...yours included


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

timelessquality said:


> just curious... What's the pitch of this ice covered roof?
> 
> My roof sub won't go up on a heavy frost...


8/12


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## Lanya LaPunta (Oct 31, 2010)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I can tell you this. I'm about done being a sub and working for desk jockeys. Getting liscensed this year and going to be done with it


Michigan must be different. Here, a subcontractor must be licensed, within the jurisdiction they are performing work.

No state licensure for anything but electrical and plumbing, however, each municipality has license requirements. Keeps cash coming into each city, county, and/or suburb.

However, license is required for subs.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I use subs and bring enough value that it's worth it to the homeowner.
> 
> I can sure tell you that this would never happen with me. My subs would also not create so much drama and they have reliable employees.


Trying to figure out how I caused it. Dan quitting did more to cause it than anything else.

I think what initially got the guy against the company is they are charging about 2x per sq than what any other comparable company in town is charging and then when I find a 400 dollar wood repair charge him another grand but what do I know.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> One other thing regarding the guy who wasn't paying his child support. Why weren't you taking that out of his check and sending it to them?


He is a sub contractor not an employee, not my job or responsibility. My brother in law is 42 years old, he's a big boy and should be able to manage this by himself. 

He was paid per day, and has liability insurance. Definition of independent sole proprietor


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Lanya LaPunta said:


> Michigan must be different. Here, a subcontractor must be licensed, within the jurisdiction they are performing work.
> 
> No state licensure for anything but electrical and plumbing, however, each municipality has license requirements. Keeps cash coming into each city, county, and/or suburb.
> 
> However, license is required for subs.


Yeah. Don't need to be liscensed to be a sub here, only the prime contractor needs to be. This is also why I am going to enroll in the necessary classes to become liscensed this year. As a sub for production companies I get a work order and no chance to screen my "customers" if I draw a looney toon, then that's my luck, I have no opportunity to say that I don't think we are a food fit like I can if I get a job for myself


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Trying to figure out how I caused it. Dan quitting did more to cause it than anything else.
> 
> I think what initially got the guy against the company is they are charging about 2x per sq than what any other comparable company in town is charging and then when I find a 400 dollar wood repair charge him another grand but what do I know.


Why are you always fixed on what other guys charge and how much they can get per square. If they are charging double than everyone else and getting it, seems like there are homeowners willing to pay that price.

I just did a 20 square one layer ranch tear off for just under $400 a square. Another job with nearly an identical roof layout I bid at the same price and lost to a guy who did it for $255.00.

The conversation about the guy quitting doesn't even need to happen in the first place. It shouldn't affect the homeowners job at all.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Why are you always fixed on what other guys charge and how much they can get per square. If they are charging double than everyone else and getting it, seems like there are homeowners willing to pay that price.
> 
> I just did a 20 square one layer ranch tear off for just under $400 a square. Another job with nearly an identical roof layout I bid at the same price and lost to a guy who did it for $255.00.
> 
> The conversation about the guy quitting doesn't even need to happen in the first place. It shouldn't affect the homeowners job at all.


This guy couldn't stop talking about what the cost was, the first issue that arose was last week when I discovered the rot and told the PM it would be 400 for the fix plus about 100 in material, he told me to have the wife sign off on it. The husband who caused the drama called and bitches him out when he got home about it. (Guy is a long haul trucker) and honestly I would have too when he started spouting off what he was paying for the job. 

Here you go, 28sq fairly simple 1 layer tear off price breaks down to 714.28 per sq. Which is why I also said shame on him for not shopping around. And yes I do have an issue with someone clearing 12k off my back for a few days work


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i want to not be hired because i'm too expensive,not because i'm a pain in the ass,i understand how customer relationships go bad,but when the h.o. asked if you were an employee you should have referred him to the gc..jmo..


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

The guy quitting in a huff got the HO started on this is not what he is paying for and got him tizzied up to begin with


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

..that was none of his concern..


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

A&E Exteriors said:


> The guy quitting in a huff got the HO started on this is not what he is paying for and got him tizzied up to begin with


If that's the case then it's all your fault. Keep a leash on him next time.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> If that's the case then it's all your fault. Keep a leash on him next time.


Won't be a next time for him


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> i want to not be hired because i'm too expensive,not because i'm a pain in the ass,i understand how customer relationships go bad,but when the h.o. asked if you were an employee you should have referred him to the gc..jmo..


I just wanted him to quit talking and go inside....Guy has a screw loose or something


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I just wanted him to quit talking and go inside....Guy has a screw loose or something


Accidentally drop your hammer off the roof relatively close to him.

If someone is bothering me I touch a wire and yell as though I got a shock and say "sorry this requires a lot of concentration".


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> This guy couldn't stop talking about what the cost was, the first issue that arose was last week when I discovered the rot and told the PM it would be 400 for the fix plus about 100 in material, he told me to have the wife sign off on it. The husband who caused the drama called and bitches him out when he got home about it. (Guy is a long haul trucker) and honestly I would have too when he started spouting off what he was paying for the job.
> 
> Here you go, 28sq fairly simple 1 layer tear off price breaks down to 714.28 per sq. Which is why I also said shame on him for not shopping around. And yes I do have an issue with someone clearing 12k off my back for a few days work


I don't get it. You act like they didn't pay you what you agreed to (plus some) since you didn't finish the project. You also shouldn't be giving any pricing to any homeowner.

I used to sub for a company just as expensive when I first started. Thought people were getting ripped off. As of today, I realize that's where one really should be. You don't k ow his costs. I just quoted a 37k siding project. They want to finance it. Of they go for it, my fee to the bank is 4.5k.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

when i sub i really don't care what someone makes or doesn't make,now that is none of my buisness


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

It's threads like these that remind me why we stick with commercial projects. 

We are sub's for mostly out of state contractors. But I have the authority to make changes to the plans as necessary. I am the one who interacts with the project site super and work with them to make things happen. My estimates are based on the paperwork I get, and, the experience I have working on commercial projects. 

Any changes or additions to the plans = more money. Anything not right on the plans I received = more money. Any delays = more money. Changes and alterations happen all the time. Minor ones I can sometimes absorb, anything else get charged. 

What little residential I do, I am extremely picky about. 

I have no problem with subs. Sometimes we hire them to help, but again, I pretty much have to have history with the guys, and, they have to prove themselves.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I don't get it. You act like they didn't pay you what you agreed to (plus some) since you didn't finish the project. You also shouldn't be giving any pricing to any homeowner.
> 
> I used to sub for a company just as expensive when I first started. Thought people were getting ripped off. As of today, I realize that's where one really should be. You don't k ow his costs. I just quoted a 37k siding project. They want to finance it. Of they go for it, my fee to the bank is 4.5k.


 I did not discuss pricing with the HO nor contractor, the HO was just spouting off for 20 grand this , for 20 grand that during the pow wow Friday morning. 

For that kind of pricing you don't hit the HO over the head on a small amount of rot repair and have the sub make them sign for it. Should be included or you leave your desk and take that on yourself.

Regarding their operating costs I can't see them much different than the like companies in the area. That would have come in about 450-500 a sq. I know what I could have got the materials for and I'd be shocked if they didn't get them at about 25% less.

Can you honestly say that for that price the salesman didn't whack these people over the head for a landmark pro shingle? They should have at the very least done it in TL's. They pulled up to a decent house on a wooded lot and said to themselves that these people can afford $xx . None of this statement was relayed to the owners, just what ran through my head.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

...


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

cwatbay said:


> It's threads like these that remind me why we stick with commercial projects.
> 
> We are sub's for mostly out of state contractors. But I have the authority to make changes to the plans as necessary. I am the one who interacts with the project site super and work with them to make things happen. My estimates are based on the paperwork I get, and, the experience I have working on commercial projects.
> 
> ...


what does this have to do with anything here?


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

Tom Struble said:


> when i sub i really don't care what someone makes or doesn't make,now that is none of my buisness



As a sub I expect someone to make money off of me. They are crazy if they don't add something for their time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

..if they don't that's on them..not me


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Tom Struble said:


> what does this have to do with anything here?


Absolutely nothing.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

The thing is, the people agreed to it. At the time, they felt that was a fair price for the work that was performed.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> The thing is, the people agreed to it. At the time, they felt that was a fair price for the work that was performed.


True, and I told the guy you signed it.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> True, and I told the guy you signed it.


This is what I think happened. Don't take offense.

You found out what he was charged for the job. You said wow. He found out you were a sub so he could've hired you directly. You told him that the roof should only be about half of what he was charged for it. Homeowner then gets mad about it, freaks out on the company and the rest is where you're at today.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> This is what I think happened. Don't take offense.
> 
> You found out what he was charged for the job. You said wow. He found out you were a sub so he could've hired you directly. You told him that the roof should only be about half of what he was charged for it. Homeowner then gets mad about it, freaks out on the company and the rest is where you're at today.


No offense taken. But not how it went down. It went 100% as it did in my post on the other page. I do think when he realized I was a sub that company a was making money by managing the job WHICH THEY SHOULD . I would have charged a few grand over half of what they did. And at that I could have sold it, put my buddy on it, and pocketed 5k. 

He is salty that he knows just about everybody in the girlfriends family but us and knows without saying we'd have been cheaper.

I told him he signed it after the pow wow because he was still griping after the PM left and I was finishing packing up.

I have put many HO'S minds at ease over the years about hiring companies that use sub crews.




I tell them that employees care about hours and job security, where as I want to get it done and can't afford callbacks because I don't get paid to fix things. 

That buying from a yellow page contractor you know all licenses, insurances, warranties are in order and you have recourse over such a company where as not so much with Joe Bob roofer and his taillight warranty. These companies have been in business on this scale for years and aren't going away so they will be here if your roof leaks in 3 years or a shingle blows off.

Then I tell them that I don't like chasing money, they can spend 200k a year on advertising and chase checks, I like working.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

A&E Exteriors said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have actually sold jobs with this spew for companies I work for. Hell one guy went so far as to sign via email, pay his deposit with a cc over the phone and send the final payment with me having never met the owner of the company. I did 5 houses on that block. I told him I would be the one there doing the work as I did the other 4 on that block but he could request me just to make sure.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Tom Struble said:


> what does this have to do with anything here?


Sorry, must have had a Tipitop moment


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## gbruzze1 (Dec 17, 2008)

But he couldn't have had you do it for half because you're not licensed.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

gbruzze1 said:


> But he couldn't have had you do it for half because you're not licensed.


I have a couple contractors I work with willing to sub me my work for a more than reasonable fee....usually 500 bucks


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I have a couple contractors I work with willing to sub me my work for a more than reasonable fee....usually 500 bucks


Those people are insane


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

jhark123 said:


> Those people are insane


If you say so. Easy money for them.
They sub me their work what's the difference


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## gbruzze1 (Dec 17, 2008)

Forget roofing. You need a reality show!


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## jstanton (Mar 25, 2012)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I have a couple contractors I work with willing to sub me my work for a more than reasonable fee....usually 500 bucks


This thread is the epitome of what's wrong with this trade. You don't have a license, so you sub for licensed contractors. You treat your "employee's" as a subcontractors. Then, you use your friends license to pull permits for you. On top of all this, you think you know what people should be charging?

Do you have any idea what a w2 employee on the books costs? Do you know what an actual company costs to run? Paid holiday's, sick days, year end bonuses, company outing's? I offer a career not a job, and that's how you find good help. I don't give a **** what anyone else is charging, I change what I need to make a profit. I hate guys saying you got taken I could have done it for ***.xx. 

I have been the highest bidder (on the few jobs the designer said to get three quotes) for the last couple years. Got all but 1, and continue to work for them and their friends/family. They are paying for the service just as much as the work. I have never seen anything close to the circus you are talking about. I almost never leave a job without discussing their next project, even though I charge much more than the competition.

Go legit, get employee's, set company guide lines, charge accordingly. Get the hell away from these bottom of the barrel guys with a construction license.

As a side not, I sell roofing at $700 - $1,000 a square. We take the siding off, I&W 18" up all walls, boards all re nailed, new step, ect. People pay it all day, I sub the roofing and my guys do all carpentry.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I gotta say, I agree. It sounds like a circus. Those guys charging you 500 bucks to use their licence are nuts. What if the shot majorly hits the fan. They will be on the hook for more than 500 bucks.

All the guys quitting and freaking and roofing in ice and snow is just nuts. I know a guys gotta make a living, but if those guys slip and get hurt, who will take care of them.

Hire them through a temp service or do payroll and let your liability insurance rates go up to cover the fact you have real employees. Then pay for them to have the tools and other things employees need.

You will find out real fast how much it will really cost you to have guys working for you.

I'm not saying the company you are subbing for isn't charging crazy prices, though I would assume the HO got other bids. I am saying if you were having to carry the labor burdens of most of us, you wouldn't be as far from thier price as you think.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I have no employees, not enough money available to sub in my area to do so. I am very clear about this when people ask me about working. And have never said otherwise on this forum.

Many subs in this town are working for starting out at 25 sq off and 25 on, some get 30 each way, I have managed to bump my prices up to starting at 40 on and 35 off plus extras...step, chimneys, ridge vent, wood replacement, skylights etc.

There are a few guys who pay me more because they want a quote but they are few and far between and they rarely do a roof. Where is the money at to cover employee burden on that? 
It's not there. So I gotta do what I gotta do and so do my people. I'm not about to make people employees at what these companies are willing to pay. I would work 40-60 hours a week for $200. Screw that.

I pay per day, do not force anybody to work...you want to work.... fine, taking the day off.... fine, have a job to do for yourself...fine just communicate with me. I do know the cost of the employee burden, that is why I don't have any.but you can be damn sure they fit the IRS and insurance companies definition of independent sole proprietors.

As far as doing a roof in this weather, I'm with everybody else, it's crazy...however I didn't sell the job and sit on it for 2 months either...they did. And as far as other bids the guy told me his neighbors house was half the cost and he should've probably called that company. But these guys sold him as using employees and not subs. The guy is a pure ******* truck driver who's wife has money. Probably got off dropping 20k at once and I think when he found out we were subs he all of a sudden got a major case of buyers remorse and had to make a scene. I would have never had this problem if I had sold the job, I would have said it should take x amount of time, this is what we are gonna do, and I will be here installing personally and would have spotted the hidden rot and had it factored into the job. I simply answered a question and got caught in the middle.

I am enrolling in the proper classes to attain a liscense this year. The reason I have not to date is because the one thing that was stopping me from wasting time and money is no longer an issue. I just need to come up with 2 grand that I have no other plans for and get enrolled.

Believe me, I am sick and tired of being a sub making other people rich that are charging like they have an employee burden that they don't have...wear our shirts and put a magnet on your truck doors with our name on it...nope not anymore. And for damn sure can't stand that I know there are salesman that make as much or more than I do on a job and never even set up a ladder to measure the roof.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I appreciate that Bamm, I am doing everything I can to learn what I need to learn with the time that I have. I have learned tons here and continue to do so. 

In a perfect world I would have a small crew of about 4 or 5 plus me, do the easier stuff or the stuff that I had to do and repairs, and have a couple sub crews doing everything else. That is still my goal and I'm getting there


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

then again taking business advice from someone that gave it up then went back in in a 3 month period isn't too smart either..jmo..


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## gbruzze1 (Dec 17, 2008)

I'm sorry but am I the only one that heard him say roofing is fun?!?


Gary


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

gbruzze1 said:


> I'm sorry but am I the only one that heard him say roofing is fun?!?
> 
> 
> Gary


I enjoy it, can be fun at times...usually when I have a wide open section to go to town on


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

I might have missed something, as I stopped reading after 3 pages, but the whole sub v. employee question shouldn't matter. You sign a contract to get a certain scope of work done at an agreed price, on a certain schedule, and at an agreed or expected quality, and within the limits of the law, it's up to the contractor to get the project done under the terms of the contract.

Customers ask me about it, and I tell them how the work gets divvied up on my jobs, and I tell them that it shouldn't matter to them, and that I might change my mind 10 minutes after I talk to them. I've never had a customer argue or question any of that, or as far as I know follow up with a sub. I can understand how a customer might see it differently on a single-trade job, but there's a case to be made for it there, too (did Ethan make that case about 5 pages back?).

As for responding to a customer who asked how I was there? I'd most likely say, "I work for Scott. If you want the details, you should talk to him." "Bob, all I want to know is are you an employee or a sub?" "Talk to Scott." But I also might just tell them the answer right off, and I wouldn't feel guilty about it if it put Scott in a jam - why would I lie for someone else?

Way too much drama for me.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

I also understand that the all-employees situation (Stephen H's position) can be a valid point of value and a marketing advantage.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

It really makes no difference if they use employees or subs except in the case that they said they had in house crews. 

It is a common question I am asked I did not have any idea it would set him off. 

It is a 50/ 50 split on what people want. Some people want a self motivated sub out working on their job, the ones that don't are usually easily sold on it when I say that employees want their hours and get paid to fix their leaks where as I need to get it done and can't afford a call back as I am paid to do it once....usually gets them keen on a sub (me) doing the job instead of an employee. This HO was just bound and determined to ***** about something.


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

In post #74 you said, "I have a couple contractors I work with willing to sub me my work for a more than reasonable fee....usually 500 bucks"

Now you add that they are doing alot of leg work, giving estimates, and collecting, then just giving you your price? I'm calling BS. 

I think you are getting jobs on someone else's license and giving them a $500 kickback for letting you use their license number. 

You think the GC is charging way too much. Is it possible he is charging a legitimate amount and running a legitimate business?

Just for the record, if I were asked if I were a sub or an employee, I would have answered honestly. Probably without even thinking about it. Just like you did.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

builditguy said:


> In post #74 you said, "I have a couple contractors I work with willing to sub me my work for a more than reasonable fee....usually 500 bucks"
> 
> Now you add that they are doing alot of leg work, giving estimates, and collecting, then just giving you your price? I'm calling BS.
> 
> ...


No, like I said, I am uncensored. If I get a call and the job is an an area that requires a permit, i inform my guy. I make the visit, sell the job blah blah. He (contractor) has to sign the contract because he has to go get the permits deposit checks etc.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Is what this does is give him an easy 500, sometimes a little more and he gets priority treatment from me when he needs me


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

builditguy said:


> In post #74 you said, "I have a couple contractors I work with willing to sub me my work


That's what I said and what we do


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## muskoka guy (Nov 16, 2013)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Is what this does is give him an easy 500, sometimes a little more and he gets priority treatment from me when he needs me


And when something goes wrong, he gets to hire a lawyer because he is getting sued. This guy is a fool to do that. Talk about sticking your neck out for 500 dollars. Assuming liability is a large part of what a general charges for.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

muskoka guy said:


> And when something goes wrong, he gets to hire a lawyer because he is getting sued. This guy is a fool to do that. Talk about sticking your neck out for 500 dollars. Assuming liability is a large part of what a general charges for.


Yep, that's what his % is for. However it's not like he is a stranger. Known the man for 12 years and I've done many jobs for him with no issue.

Don't hate the player hate the game.

You'd be surprised how far " Bob sends me to do the roof estimates because I will be the one here doing the work goes"


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

muskoka guy said:


> And when something goes wrong, he gets to hire a lawyer because he is getting sued. This guy is a fool to do that. Talk about sticking your neck out for 500 dollars. Assuming liability is a large part of what a general charges for.


Also, then he is a fool to use me to sub his jobs out to as well using that logic


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

We are talking about a roof, not much to go wrong


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Really?


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Yes really. And I something was to go wrong that is why I have insurance


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Chit rolls downhill yes?


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

Not much to go wrong? You have got to be kidding me. 

I appreciate you sticking with the thread so long and continuing to follow-up, but now I think you are just replying to get a reaction.

I don't even think I have to list the things that can go wrong, because I'm sure this wasn't a serious response.


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

Oh lord A&E. If you are working under another guys license then if something goes wrong it's his azz on the line, not you. 

It's different and the same as subbing for him at the same time, he takes the risk either way but I assume, and I guess i shouldn't in this case, that you have a contract between the guy and your self. Otherwise he is a fool and you can just skip your marry way down the street when chit hits the fan. 

If you are going out and selling the job, and ect that creates the issue that you are simply using his license for a fee. That's Illegal. 

As far as the gc charging what they charge, maybe they need to, running a business is expensive.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

vista69 said:


> A&E, you're an Unlicensed roofing contractor violating Michigan law, ANYBODY could turn you in to the proper authorities.
> 
> Roofers are required to carry their own license.
> 
> ...


I can sub for any licensed contractor or builder.

I have no employees or subs working for me presently...just me

Subs are not required to have a liscense 
plumbing, hvac, electrical subs do


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

I thought you had your GF and your buddy, and some other gal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## madmax718 (Dec 7, 2012)

Warren said:


> I think some homeowners are wary of a group of subs working on their house. What happens if one of you guys gets injured or dies? The homeowner expected properly insured employees to be on the roof. Employees that would be covered under WC if something unfortunate should happen.


I don't know how it works out there, but the GC here would cover anyone they called in, regardless if the sub they called in had their own GC license or not. Any injuries at the end would still be the responsibility of the GC. Thats why its important to have homeowners understand that without a licensed and insured GC doing work on your home, the homeowner becomes responsible in case something happens.


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## vista69 (Feb 26, 2016)

You are a SUB-contractor, not an employee. 

SUB-contractors are ALSO considered a Contractor

All roofing contractors are required to have their own license to do roof work. Whether you have a full residential license, or a Maintenance and Alteration license as a roofer.

SUB-CONTRACTOR / CONTRACTORS, are defined as someone like yourself = an independent self employed person receiving payment for work over a $600 value, Materials + labor

EMPLOYEES, are individuals who work solely for one contractor. An Employee receives paychecks with State and Federal tax deductions taken out of they pay. The employer is required the same amount of taxes for you. This is the reason why most contractors prefer to hire other licensed individuals.

You think you don't need a license? I believe you do. It's your life and your risk. But I'm trying to let you know that you need to do your own research. 

Also an Unlicensed contractor has NO recourse or right to file a claim for payment of your services.

Good luck, and GET LICENSED asap!


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

vista69 said:


> You are a SUB-contractor, not an employee.
> 
> SUB-contractors are ALSO considered a Contractor
> 
> ...


As has been already answered in this thread:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dleg/General_337792_7.pdf

The very first topic:

_Q: When is a license required as a Residential Builder or Maintenance & Alteration Contractor?
A: In general, a person who *contracts with a property owner* to do residential construction or remodeling on a project whose total value is $600 or more, including material and labor, is required to be licensed as either a Residential Builder or a Maintenance & Alteration Contractor.
_


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

vista69 said:


> You are a SUB-contractor, not an employee.
> 
> SUB-contractors are ALSO considered a Contractor
> 
> ...


No, I know for a fact that I do not need a liscense to subcontract through a licensed builder/ contractor or any commercial work in Michigan. 

I'm supposed to be licensed to contract work for a homeowner for over $600.00. I've been doing this for years and the companies I sub through are on the up and up and make sure everything is in order. I am required to carry liability and WC to sub work from them.

I am aware of all the risks as far as payment etc etc from a homeowner. I only do a couple word of mouth jobs per year for myself, the rest is sub work for that reason.

I actually found the classes closest to me this morning for my pre licensure requirements.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Mordekyle said:


> I thought you had your GF and your buddy, and some other gal?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My buddy quit, triggering the whole fiasco that went down on this job.
My girlfriend is just driving me as of late and her sister in law got butthurt and quit because she was doing some painting for me and it sucked and I had to tell her so.


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## kiteman (Apr 18, 2012)

Soap opera


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

kiteman said:


> Soap opera
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Old news


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

But even if they aren't working for you now weren't they previously? That would make them (former) employees. Wouldn't that make you an employer and require you to withhold taxes and carry WC on them? - (unless of course they are insured subs)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Mordekyle said:


> But even if they aren't working for you now weren't they previously? That would make them (former) employees. Wouldn't that make you an employer and require you to withhold taxes and carry WC on them? - (unless of course they are insured subs)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, they had their own insurance


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

W-9 and comp placement worksheet filled out and paid per day


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## vista69 (Feb 26, 2016)

Okay, I guess we decipher the law differently than.

The way I read it is only EMPLOYEES of a Contractor can can do work under the Contractors License. Subs need their own.

I guess I made my point 

I'm new to this group, I think I'm going to like it 

MIke


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

vista69 said:


> Okay, I guess we decipher the law differently than.
> 
> The way I read it is only EMPLOYEES of a Contractor can can do work under the Contractors License. Subs need their own.
> 
> ...


It's a very informative place to be. 

You can read it however you want. Michigan does not require sub contractors to be licensed. One of the companies I sub for has been in business sense 1978. If he had been doing things wrong all these years he wouldn't have made is so long. 

All you need to sub non mechanical trades in michigan is general liability insurance..


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## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

As you move forward with your with your business, take a look at page 60 of the February issue of Roofing Contractor. 

Eventually you will find the need to hire help . . . make sure your ducks are lined up . . . just sayin' . . .


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

apkole said:


> As you move forward with your with your business, take a look at page 60 of the February issue of Roofing Contractor.
> 
> Eventually you will find the need to hire help . . . make sure your ducks are lined up . . . just sayin' . . .


What's the name on that article


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## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

A&E, it's a side article to the State of the Industry report. "Employee or Independent Roofing Subcontractor. "Federal case law has ruled that the label an employer gives a subcontractor will not be the decisive factor in determining if the subcontractor is in business for himself/herself or simply an employee . . . .

I believe we are about to see enforcement ramp up on this issue.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Here:

http://digital.bnpmedia.com/article/State+Of+The+Industry/2386213/0/article.html

Although subcontracts are important, they may not provide the appropriate verification to show that a subcontractor is independent. Federal case law has ruled that the label an employer gives a subcontractor will not be the decisive factor in determining if the subcontractor is in business for himself/herself or simply an employee without the required employment benefits, insurance or payroll tax. Under the new economic realities test, the federal government will examine:

1. The extent to which the work performed is an integral part of the employer’s business;

2. The worker’s opportunity for profit or loss depending on his or her managerial skill;

3. The extent of the relative investments of the employer and the worker;

4. Whether the work performed requires special skills and initiative;

*5. The permanency of the relationship*; and

6. The degree of control exercised or retained by the employer.

The greater the level of independence, the more likely a subcontractor will be considered independent from the prime roofing contractor. While not definitive, agencies may look to see if subcontractors work for multiple roofers, advertise, run the risk of increased profit or loss on jobs, have their own equipment and tools, and provide their own safety and employee training.


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## apkole (Mar 18, 2006)

I just think it's important to note that a bunch of 3 letter agencies are beginning to share and coordinate information which pertains to this issue. If they get serious, this strategy will change the game, if it doesn't completely end it . . .


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## klintala (Aug 2, 2014)

A&E Exteriors said:


> It's a very informative place to be.
> 
> You can read it however you want. Michigan does not require sub contractors to be licensed. One of the companies I sub for has been in business sense 1978. If he had been doing things wrong all these years he wouldn't have made is so long.
> 
> All you need to sub non mechanical trades in michigan is general liability insurance..


This is correct.
Edit: Refering to the part about subs not needing a license. From my understanding someone in the chain needs to have it, wether the GC or the sub. I can't speak for mechanicals tho. Just hire a licensed sub.

Although, I just came here to ask how the heck there are people in t-shirts in GR in January.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

klintala said:


> This is correct.
> 
> Although, I just came here to ask how the heck there are people in t-shirts in GR in January.


I wore my usual polo shirt & jeans shoveling snow this afternoon. Sun felt good on my back.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

klintala said:


> This is correct.
> Edit: Refering to the part about subs not needing a license. From my understanding someone in the chain needs to have it, wether the GC or the sub. I can't speak for mechanicals tho. Just hire a licensed sub.
> 
> Although, I just came here to ask how the heck there are people in t-shirts in GR in January.


January was most certainly not the shirt weather here! Lol


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