# Carpentry union orientation.



## khrome96 (Aug 9, 2014)

I got an orientation for the carpenters on August 21st (NYC) Any advice on what I should do there?


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Listen and do as they say . Don't be a know it at . Let your work be your example .


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

This is were they tell you about all the benefits. Yeah just listen don't be the guy that has something to say about everything. Typically not in the form of a question. Other than that. The couple of hours of your life it take means you don't have to pay Initiation fees just 3 months dues up front. Then after that you can pay dues late up to 6 months. Use the threaten letters of being kicked out as ass wipe.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

khrome96 said:


> I got an orientation for the carpenters on August 21st (NYC) Any advice on what I should do there?


do you have to be a NYC resident? how long did it take to get to that point? I took the test in NJ in February and am just now being interviewed on Tuesday 7 months later.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Turn around and run back out the doors. :laughing:


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Ask them if they like tea.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Turn around and run back out the doors. :laughing:


Union carpenters in NYC make $100/hr between wages and benefits. wage is like $53/hr


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm not against union carpenters at all. But here, it's very political. Meaning, it's not how good you are or how good of an employee you are, it's who you know that governs whether you work everyday or get laid off, plus the type of work you do.

That part sucks


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

jb4211 said:


> I'm not against union carpenters at all. But here, it's very political. Meaning, it's not how good you are or how good of an employee you are, it's who you know that governs whether you work everyday or get laid off, plus the type of work you do.
> 
> That part sucks


I think it's like that everywhere. still gonna give it a shot since having benefits and a pension would be cool.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

asgoodasdead said:


> Union carpenters in NYC make $100/hr between wages and benefits. wage is like $53/hr


So that's the going rate to sell your sole...thanks for the info!


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> So that's the going rate to sell your sole...thanks for the info!


explain how it's "selling your soul"


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Many yrs ago, I was doing some work for my mom. The neighbor who lives across the street was an important person in the carpenter's union and offered me a position. 

I was working for the city at the time so I had steady employment with great benefits etc., it just want what I wanted to do. I was extremely excited and started to get my sucks in a row making ready for the transition.

That was till I discovered the starting salary. It was really low, like $10.00 an hour or something. I had an apartment and car payment. Financially, it just want an option. I know the salary increases fairly rapidly over the yrs. But I just couldn't afford the salary reduction at the time.

I wonder where I'd be if I took the chance.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

asgoodasdead said:


> explain how it's "selling your soul"


Not the right thread.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

jb4211 said:


> Many yrs ago, I was doing some work for my mom. The neighbor who lives across the street was an important person in the carpenter's union and offered me a position.
> 
> I was working for the city at the time so I had steady employment with great benefits etc., it just want what I wanted to do. I was extremely excited and started to get my sucks in a row making ready for the transition.
> 
> ...


it varies depending on the state, unfortunately. journeyman rate in NJ is $42/hr and even 1st year apprentice is like $18. but a lot of surrounding states journeymen only get $27.50.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

This was PA and about 20 yrs ago


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

jb4211 said:


> This was PA and about 20 yrs ago


If you're referring to asgoodasdead, he's just about got it pinned for NEPA. 

$27 and some nickels.


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## Shane O (Apr 4, 2014)

I'd join the union. But I like to work.


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

khrome96 said:


> I got an orientation for the carpenters on August 21st (NYC) Any advice on what I should do there?


Just listen and don't suck up to anyone .


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Shane O said:


> I'd join the union. But I like to work.


Every union job I've seen there's always at least one guy working and several others standing around talking.

You can be that one guy working.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

jb4211 said:


> Every union job I've seen there's always at least one guy working and several others standing around talking.
> 
> You can be that one guy working.


I was a union carpenter and that's nothing like it is here. You have to bust a nut if want to stay working. Union carpenter jobs around here are mainly commercial or industrial. A lot of internal backstabbing going on. It was not for the weak that's for sure.


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## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

I'm always curious to hear about the union. I don't have any first hand experiences, just some interesting stories from former union workers. One welder I know quit after a week because he couldn't stand folks telling him to stop working so fast. A carpenter who says he never heard so many people say "can't do that, not my job" on one site. And I know a mason who thought he was going to have to retire because of his tired body, them he joined the union. He doesn't work remotely as hard as he used to and he makes considerably more when you include benefits.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

jb4211 said:


> Every union job I've seen there's always at least one guy working and several others standing around talking.
> 
> You can be that one guy working.


how it is here, too. my dad goes "your boss is gonna love you, your co-workers are gonna hate you"

i actually just spent a week on a union job getting prevailing wage. this particular union contractor doesn't have a contract with the carpenter's union cause he rarely needs carpenters and when he does he just brings us in. he says what 3 of us get done in 2 days would take 6 union guys a week. seeing how the other trades work on these jobs, i can see why. going back there today to caulk the exterior trim. $67.32/hr.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

I was kidding really.
The carpenters are pretty good here in that respect.
Now, the gas and water guys are definitely that way: one guy working, give guys watching.


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## Shane O (Apr 4, 2014)

I just did a 11 month fair wage job. 

To keep the union happy, all non unionized trades were paid union wages. My helper was paid 41.38 an hour. Journeymen were paid 67.97 an hour. 

I enjoyed the pay bump, but hated the politics involved with the union carpenters calling us scab labour. My response was always " you guys could have built it, but the city needs it done this calendar year."

My contract stated it would be 14 months to complete our scope of work. We got it done in 11


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

whoever hired you/bid the job put 14 months. if the bid was based on carpenter unions it would have been longer. but they knew you'd get it done in 11 and they could make 3 months on it and still have a lower bid than the contractors who were using union guys. the hours on our plans are always double


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## Shane O (Apr 4, 2014)

asgoodasdead said:


> whoever hired you/bid the job put 14 months. if the bid was based on carpenter unions it would have been longer. but they knew you'd get it done in 11 and they could make 3 months on it and still have a lower bid than the contractors who were using union guys. the hours on our plans are always double


I never underbid the union. My bid was based on the fair wage price. I was actually higher than the union.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

I never said you underbid. I'm saying whoever hired you figured those 14 months and got paid on them. that's how they make their money. union jobs are all based on hours since everyone gets paid the same rates.


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## Shane O (Apr 4, 2014)

asgoodasdead said:


> I never said you underbid. I'm saying whoever hired you figured those 14 months and got paid on them. that's how they make their money. union jobs are all based on hours since everyone gets paid the same rates.


I bid on time. Not by the square. 

I squeezed 14 months into 11 by asking a little more from my guys. And everyone got bonuses.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

your guys were making $67/hr and they needed bonuses to work harder? jesus christ


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

asgoodasdead said:


> your guys were making $67/hr and they needed bonuses to work harder? jesus christ


You don't want to milk that cash cow dry too soon, do you?


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## Shane O (Apr 4, 2014)

asgoodasdead said:


> your guys were making $67/hr and they needed bonuses to work harder? jesus christ


No they didn't. 

But knowing that overtime is being paid and Saturdays are overtime as well, motivated them just fine. 

My contracts state the all over time is a billable extra. ( you squeeze me, you pay the .5 per hour per man )

I have bonuses based on attendance, attitude, and consistency. 

I also made more money than I had budgeted for. 

Fairly simple points based system.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Shane O said:


> No they didn't.
> 
> But knowing that overtime is being paid and Saturdays are overtime as well, motivated them just fine.
> 
> ...


Were you the GC?


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

khrome96 said:


> I got an orientation for the carpenters on August 21st (NYC) Any advice on what I should do there?


Yes. Just keep the #1 rule of Fight Club committed to memory.


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## Shane O (Apr 4, 2014)

Californiadecks said:


> Were you the GC?


No. Concrete and framing contractor.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Shane O said:


> No. Concrete and framing contractor.


So the GC signs your contract?


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

Shane O said:


> No they didn't.
> 
> But knowing that overtime is being paid and Saturdays are overtime as well, motivated them just fine.
> 
> ...


a better points based system would be "your attitude attendance and consistency sucks? you're fired and I bring in 1 of the other 5 million framers out there who would kill their own mother to make $67/hr for 11 months"


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

Shane O said:


> I just did a 11 month fair wage job. To keep the union happy, all non unionized trades were paid union wages. My helper was paid 41.38 an hour. Journeymen were paid 67.97 an hour. I enjoyed the pay bump, but hated the politics involved with the union carpenters calling us scab labour. My response was always " you guys could have built it, but the city needs it done this calendar year." My contract stated it would be 14 months to complete our scope of work. We got it done in 11


Is that $67.97 base wage plus fringes combined? What state?


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

so I had my interview for the carpenter's union in NJ yesterday and it went like: "you have FIVE YEARS of experience?" "yeah, I'm a framer" "WOOD framer?" "yes". "Whoa we just got a chubby. we have a huge framing job starting down in Mercer in a few weeks"

so it looks like i'll be wearing a hardhat soon.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

asgoodasdead said:


> so I had my interview for the carpenter's union in NJ yesterday and it went like: "you have FIVE YEARS of experience?" "yeah, I'm a framer" "WOOD framer?" "yes". "Whoa we just got a chubby. we have a huge framing job starting down in Mercer in a few weeks"
> 
> so it looks like i'll be wearing a hardhat soon.


Good to know you will be union trained before framing for the union.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Good to know you will be union trained before framing for the union.


well i'll be an apprentice, and going to school 1 week every 8 weeks. but as far as framing goes, there's not much left for me to learn. it's what I do 6 days a week year round.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Where to begin.
> Whether I'm in the union or nor doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. I doubt you've been in a union based on what you've said but you have your opinion. For the record I've never been in the union. My father in machinists union, father in law at steel plant as machinist brother in law fired in PATCO strike ( i picketed with him). You asking if I was union is just one of your distractions in discussing a topic.
> 
> To lay the blame on one entity for the decline of the steel or auto industries is without deep thought. Steel dumping by foreign plants, lack of modernization of plants, over production, mismanagement, and political policies all contributed to the steel industries decline. It wasn't a single issue. And while not as big a manufacturer of steel as in it's hay day there are still U.S. plants acounting for about 20% of world production.
> ...


My old business partner was in the local 134, grandfather in the machinists union and many auto workers in the family. And my FIL was in sales in the steel industry. So I have first hand accounts from all levels of businesses that are unionized. 

I would suggest reading about the steel industry post WWII. Fighting the unions for a decade after the war caused much of what you have brought up. If the union been able to dissolve right after the war modernization would have been the next step.

And I'm not saying there are not other factors. However the largest expense if any company is what?


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

Clinton also lifted tariffs which made it easy for China to buy up all of our steel and sell it back to us at double the price. 

there's always tons of factors that go into why something fails or doesn't do well. it's easy to pick one reason and scapegoat, but it's not rational. 

like white guys who claim "the mexicans" ruined the residential construction industry.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Like white guys who claim Mexicans ruined the the construction industry....... 
Talked to a good friend today who went back to the union after a year off. He was worried about his bunnies expiring. He was getting his Osha card renewed. Every 5yrs in NY or you can't work. 

Word was a lot of Mexicans getting in there. Apparently buying bootleg Osha cards is lucrative & saves some overhead for the crooked higher ups. So stay tuned... Things change


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

even if that's true, you blame "the mexicans" or you blame the white guys for being so lazy and ineffecient that their bosses are resorting to replacing them for "mexicans" who work twice as hard?


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Your confusing lazy with motivation. When you come from mud huts with low education and Dr's American money and assistance is like heavenly. An American with more escalating cost of living doesn't see opportunity with declining income. 
These workers are just freeloading. They are only looking to go home with our money and start over.
We are left fixing sloppy work and paying for the bills they rack up.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

I have not seen a Mexican work real hard they just look busy jumping all around


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

I don't care where you're from. NYC union carpenters make $100/hr after benefits. if you can't be motivated by $100/hr, there's something seriously wrong with you. 

I grew up in a "rich" town and my dad was making $500k a year as a contractor before the recession. I was given everything as a kid including a car when I was 17 and I still have a strong work ethic and bust my a$$ no matter if I'm making prevailing wage or $12/hr. some people are just lazy and entitled and never "wake up". you'd think after the hit the construction industry took during the recession (union and non-union) where so many contractors were put out of business and so many guys were sitting home with no work, it would be a wake up call and these guys would be grateful for the rise in industry the past few years and do what they have to do to keep their job and good pay.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

asgoodasdead said:


> I don't care where you're from. NYC union carpenters make $100/hr after benefits. if you can't be motivated by $100/hr, there's something seriously wrong with you.


Thats true but what if these cheap uneducated workers start replacing the white men at a fraction of the cost as these unions are paying? Dont think it cant happen.....The unions are already in trouble for running up bills and abuse.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

wnc viking said:


> I have not seen a Mexican work real hard they just look busy jumping all around


In all fairness I think most are very good workers, its in thier blood and part of growing up. I just dont like them abusing our system.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

Tom M said:


> Thats true but what if these cheap uneducated workers start replacing the white men at a fraction of the cost as these unions are paying? Dont think it cant happen.....The unions are already in trouble for running up bills and abuse.


again, that wouldn't be THEIR fault. it would be the crooked contractors' fault for illegally hiring them. 

PS. I've mostly worked with Peruvians and Ecuadorians over the past 5 years and they're my favorite to work with. work twice as hard as white guys and are more reliable and have better attitudes/temperaments.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

We must get the lazy ones here. In western nc I am not impressed in how hard they work or the sloppy work they do.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

wnc viking said:


> We must get the lazy ones here. In western nc I am not impressed in how hard they work or the sloppy work they do.


I've also heard that pay for framers in NC is a lot lower than it is here. so it's no wonder you get lazier ones.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

But cost of living is less than ny I moved from upstate ny over 20 years a go I have talked to guys that went up to around the city to work but came back because of the cost of living


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

asgoodasdead said:


> again, that wouldn't be THEIR fault. it would be the crooked contractors' fault for illegally hiring them.
> 
> PS. I've mostly worked with Peruvians and Ecuadorians over the past 5 years and they're my favorite to work with. work twice as hard as white guys and are more reliable and have better attitudes/temperaments.


What about those union guys doing illegal business on the side? Do I think the younger kids today are less ambitious? Hell yes but they also don't see foreign tradesmen as role models. Playing with a computer at a desk for equal money is more attractive.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

my brother lives in Greensboro and said you're lucky to get $12/hr on a framing crew. lead guy gets $15. here helpers get $12-15. lead guys are $30-35.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Go for it. I went in right after high school. You will learn all the carpenter related trades of course. But you will also learn to work with many different subcontractors and many times you're stuck in the same room all work and trying get the job done.

It's a great learning expeerice . It has paid off many times since I went on my own.

Make sure you get vested before if you decide to split. In Michigan it's 7 years.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

Gary H said:


> But you will also learn to work with many different subcontractors and many times you're stuck in the same room all work and trying get the job done.


that's already a normal occurance on our non-union jobs. job I'm on now we're there, plumbers are there, HVAC guys are there, and roofers/siders(who keep taking our material for scaffolding). it's like that on every job we do for this GC cause he's always in a hurry.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> If the union been able to dissolve right after the war modernization would have been the next step.


Nice dream. But the company managers could invest their profits in upgrading any time.

Since you have so many sources, why not ask them how they union did or did not benefit them. 

Whar exactly is your beef with unions anyway.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Nice dream. But the company managers could invest their profits in upgrading any time.
> 
> Since you have so many sources, why not ask them how they union did or did not benefit them.
> 
> Whar exactly is your beef with unions anyway.


Other than the political machine taking protection money from hard workers under the guise of caring about then while stealing from them along with the rampant corruption and lobbying for regulation that is not necessary for the sole purpose of driving or small business...I got no beef. 

Or it could be their attitude that all work is theirs and anyone that doesn't want to work for a union is a scab.

The fact that they would picket and protest their hard working fellow Americans is a disgrace.

As far as benefiting, I can sell my sole and live a good life and not have to worry about anyone else, but I care.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Nice dream. But the company managers could invest their profits in upgrading anytime.


Profits? Managers don't make profits the company does. Are you talking about bonuses? Dividends?

Yeah filling bankruptcy and going out of business is always a good way of making profits. If they had profits to invest they wouldn't go belly up. In order to file for bankruptcy any profits would go to pay off debt.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Labor cost for a car 8-10%.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Profits? Managers don't make profits the company does. Are you talking about bonuses? Dividends?
> 
> Yeah filling bankruptcy and going out of business is always a good way of making profits. If they had profits to invest they wouldn't go belly up. In order to file for bankruptcy any profits would go to pay off debt.


And labor unions caused this?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> And labor unions caused this?


Played a big part.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/20/what-explains-gms-problems-with-the-uaw/

Even former UAW president Leonard Woodcock confided to a friend: “Our members have the best contract that people with their skills and education could ever hope to get. But we have convinced them that with every new contract, they are entitled to more.”


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Labor cost for a car 8-10%.


Other costs are for the most part fixed cost. They can do little to reduce that number.

Read the article...GM paying nearly twice what Honda or Toyota. Are you really saying that isn't a major factor and the most controllable one at that?


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## CStanford (Feb 5, 2010)

This is why we don't have a solid blue collar middle class any longer -- too many of you guys think $68/hour is too much money.

I'm talking about a middle class where a mother COULD stay at home with small children if she wanted to. A middle class where a still reasonably young man can go out and earn a real living and not barely get by on $20 an hour and no benefits whatsoever while he spills his guts so some guy that actually makes decent money can have a nice house... and a nice life.

People in the building trades need pensions and benefits. I'm 53 years old and I can barely freaking walk. What the hell am I going to do if I live another 30 years?


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

CStanford said:


> This is why we don't have a solid blue collar middle class any longer -- too many of you guys think $68/hour is too much money.
> 
> I'm talking about a middle class where a mother COULD stay at home with small children if she wanted to. A middle class where a still reasonably young man can go out and earn a real living and not barely get by on $20 an hour and no benefits whatsoever while he spills his guts so some guy that actually makes decent money can have a nice house... and a nice life.


$68/hr comes out to $140k a year. that's not middle class. and that IS a lot of money no matter where you live.


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## CStanford (Feb 5, 2010)

It's solid middle class wages. The fact that you think $140K is something outside the middle class proves the Kool Aid is working:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class

Skilled tradesmen haven't always lived Friday to Friday with a knife at their throat. This is a relatively new thing because we're willing to cut each others nuts to prove 'something.' I haven't quite figured out what, yet. And all this started way before the Mexicanos livened it all up.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

so explain to me how homeowners are gonna be able to afford to do work on their houses when the contractor is paying his employees $68/hr and benefits and pensions? union wages are only manageable cause its the state's money.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

CStanford said:


> It's solid middle class wages. The fact that you think $140K is something outside the middle class proves the Kool Aid is working:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class
> 
> Skilled tradesmen haven't always lived Friday to Friday with a knife at their throat.


income levels
Households	Persons, age 25 or older with earnings	Household income by race or ethnicity
All households	Dual earner
households	Per household
member	Males	Females	Both sexes	Asian	Non-Hispanic White	Hispanic
(of any race)	Black
$46,326	$67,348	$23,535	$39,403	$26,507	$32,140	$57,518	$48,977	$34,241	$30,134

from that wikipedia page.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

"Sociologist Leonard Beeghley identifies a male making $57,000 and a female making $40,000 with a combined households income of $97,000 as a typical middle-class family."


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## CStanford (Feb 5, 2010)

AsGoodAsDead.... your name sure fits. 

From the chart, the homeowner classes, the middle class earns from 95K to 140K a year. I think a carpenter ought to be able to earn that himself (or herself for that matter) without sending the spouse out to work. THAT'S THE PROBLEM, don't you see? It takes two where it used to take one.


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

asgoodasdead said:


> so explain to me how homeowners are gonna be able to afford to do work on their houses when the contractor is paying his employees $68/hr and benefits and pensions? union wages are only manageable cause its the state's money.


Your wrong bud the cost difference union and non union is just not what you think. Around here us in unions pride ourselves on completing jobs ahead of schedule, under budget, and done right the first time. We don't have a residential union, and when we pull a residential job it's cut rate. I'm not in this to bash anyone out trying to make a buck, but the ideology that all union tradespeople are lazy bums is just plain wrong. Yes we have guys that don't appreciate the wage, but please tell me how many times you hired a guy that didn't show up on time, didn't know what he claimed to know, showed up to work high, showed up without tools? Not every union guy is a quality guy, you can find out by asking them how much they worked the past year. And no not every non union guy is unskilled who we choose to work for is a choice. If you own a company and want to go union it's a phone call away. Same goes if you don't want be union it's a choice


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

CStanford said:


> AsGoodAsDead.... your name sure fits.
> 
> From the chart, the homeowner classes, the middle class earns from 95K to 140K a year. I think a carpenter ought to be able to earn that himself (or herself for that matter) without sending the spouse out to work. THAT'S THE PROBLEM, don't you see? It takes two where it used to take one.





> so explain to me how homeowners are gonna be able to afford to do work on their houses when the contractor is paying his employees $68/hr and benefits and pensions? union wages are only manageable cause its the state's money.


especially when workman's comp is based on gross/payroll.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

ubcguy89 said:


> Your wrong bud the cost difference union and non union is just not what you think. Around here us in unions pride ourselves on completing jobs ahead of schedule, under budget, and done right the first time. We don't have a residential union, and when we pull a residential job it's cut rate. I'm not in this to bash anyone out trying to make a buck, but the ideology that all union tradespeople are lazy bums is just plain wrong. Yes we have guys that don't appreciate the wage, but please tell me how many times you hired a guy that didn't show up on time, didn't know what he claimed to know, showed up to work high, showed up without tools? Not every union guy is a quality guy, you can find out by asking them how much they worked the past year. And no not every non union guy is unskilled who we choose to work for is a choice. If you own a company and want to go union it's a phone call away. Same goes if you don't want be union it's a choice


how is the cost difference not there? there's 9 guys on our non-union crew. our average wage is $20/hr. 

union journeyman wage or prevailing wage in this state is $67.xx/hr.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Out of work union guys and mexicans flood the market with supplement benefits and no overhead which is why the real tradesman are way underbid and forced to work for less to survive.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CStanford said:


> AsGoodAsDead.... your name sure fits.
> 
> From the chart, the homeowner classes, the middle class earns from 95K to 140K a year. I think a carpenter ought to be able to earn that himself (or herself for that matter) without sending the spouse out to work. THAT'S THE PROBLEM, don't you see? It takes two where it used to take one.


The market should dictate wage, period. What ever the market will bare and what people are willing to work for is what the wage should bare.

$63 an hour is ridiculous. You do realize that white collar middle class is in the same situation. You cannot survive on one income. You obviously have no perspective on reality.

Do you own your own business?


----------



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

asgoodasdead said:


> $68/hr comes out to $140k a year. that's not middle class. and that IS a lot of money no matter where you live.


The wage is about about 30-35 /hr. The benefits package adds about 10-15/hr. The average union auto worker is 55 w benefits. The nonunion auto worker 45-48 w benefits. The $70+ dollar figure is with the already retired pension cost added in. Since there are few retired workers in the new auto plants, their pension costs are minimal. I think about $3/hr


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

auto industry is completely different than construction.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

asgoodasdead said:


> how is the cost difference not there? there's 9 guys on our non-union crew. our average wage is $20/hr.
> 
> union journeyman wage or prevailing wage in this state is $67.xx/hr.


You might be under paid.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

nope. guys on our crew range in pay from $13-30 an hour. it's the same payscale with every other residential framing crew in the area.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/20/what-explains-gms-problems-with-the-uaw/
> 
> Even former UAW president Leonard Woodcock confided to a friend: “Our members have the best contract that people with their skills and education could ever hope to get. But we have convinced them that with every new contract, they are entitled to more.”


Quotes without a name attached fall into hearsay.


----------



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

asgoodasdead said:


> nope. guys on our crew range in pay from $13-30 an hour. it's the same payscale with every other residential framing crew in the area.


So what benefits do you get?


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

olzo55 said:


> So what benefits do you get?


the same as every other residential crew: none.


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## ubcguy89 (Mar 23, 2013)

asgoodasdead said:


> how is the cost difference not there? there's 9 guys on our non-union crew. our average wage is $20/hr. union journeyman wage or prevailing wage in this state is $67.xx/hr.


Exactly you have 9 guys that are willing to sell themselves short for skilled labor. We have 5 guys and would rather work faster for more $


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

ubcguy89 said:


> Exactly you have 9 guys that are willing to sell themselves short for skilled labor. We have 5 guys and would rather work faster for more $


faster? LOL. I just did a prevailing wage job last week. 3 of us framed and finished(shingles, azek, textured T1-11, caulked all joints and nail holes) 2 30' dugout roofs and a 10' maintenance roof in 5 days. the union contractor said if he got union carpenters it would have been 6 guys and 2 weeks. we have 9 guys, cause we usually have 2-3 jobs going at once. rarely more than 6 on one job.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Quotes without a name attached fall into hearsay.


What in the hell are you talking about?

Even former UAW president *Leonard Woodcock confided *to a friend: "Our members have the best contract that people with their skills and education could ever hope to get. But we have convinced them that with every new contract, they are entitled to more."


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

ubcguy89 said:


> Exactly you have 9 guys that are willing to sell themselves short for skilled labor. We have 5 guys and would rather work faster for more $


Again, how are they selling themselves short just because you think they should get paid more? If they are happy, and their employer is happy, who the heck are you to tell them what they should or shouldn't get? Who are you to go and stir the pot?

That's what I don't get. Why anyone has to make someone else feel like they are getting cheated when five minutes ago they were content and happy.

Let the market dictate wage. If framers didn't want $20 an hour then they can quit and go work for someone else or find a new vocation. If enough skilled framers did that, employers would be forced to raise the wage until they got skilled enough labor to complete the work. That is how every other field works. Think about all of the IT jobs back in the early 90's. When the field was new, wages were super high. Everyone flocked to IT. When the field was saturated with talent, wages on went down. When everyone got the message it leveled out and the demand eventually returned as the market complexity grew. Now IT workers can make a decent living, but the ones who find niches are the ones that make the upper middle class income. 

The same should be said for framers, or any industry for that matter. You work your way up the ladder and as you become more skilled you get more, but unless you specialize and adapt, there is nothing, and should be nothing that requires employers to pay you more just so that you can have a certain lifestyle.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What in the hell are you talking about?
> 
> Even former UAW president Leonard Woodcock confided to a friend: "Our members have the best contract that people with their skills and education could ever hope to get. But we have convinced them that with every new contract, they are entitled to more."


He confided to who? If you quote someone their name should be attached. Otherwise they are the mysterious un-named source. And how can you check that he actually said that and in what context? That's what the hell I'm talking about. You really should read articles with a more questioning attitude.

Your Forbes article mentions the job bank. Do you know how that came about? You probably think the union wanted it. The job bank was started by GM in 1984. 

The article also complains of how unions were forced on the automobile industry back in 1935,I believe. The article doesn't mention the legislation limiting unions since they formed.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

for the record, I do think residential carpenters are underpaid. but that's just how the market is, and it's gonna take a long time for that to change. hence why I'm joining the carpenter's union. I want the pension and benefits and higher pay.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

asgoodasdead said:


> for the record, I do think residential carpenters are underpaid. but that's just how the market is, and it's gonna take a long time for that to change. hence why I'm joining the carpenter's union. I want the pension and benefits and higher pay.


Good luck. I hope everything works out for you. The guys I know that have retired in the trades are glad they have pensions and benefits. 

The challenge for the unions is how to stay relevant in the globalized economy.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

My opinion of the unions is good and bad. If they could remove the corruption and became more transparent that would definitely help. Otherwise they are losing steam and could be on there way out soon.


----------



## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Again, how are they selling themselves short just because you think they should get paid more? If they are happy, and their employer is happy, who the heck are you to tell them what they should or shouldn't get? Who are you to go and stir the pot?
> 
> That's what I don't get. Why anyone has to make someone else feel like they are getting cheated when five minutes ago they were content and happy.
> 
> ...


I used to think that way,too. After all if you don't like it change or quit. But that leaves only Business to have power. Don't like the health hazards on the job. Quit. If you can afford too. 
Unions give balance to that power dynamic. But like everything there is a flow back and forth. Highs and lows. Did unions overplay their hand? Yes. Do employers have more of an edge today? Yes.

Should both cooperate in the future? Would be nice but I doubt that will happen.


----------



## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

olzo55 said:


> I used to think that way,too. After all if you don't like it change or quit. But that leaves only Business to have power. Don't like the health hazards on the job. Quit. If you can afford too.
> Unions give balance to that power dynamic. But like everything there is a flow back and forth. Highs and lows. Did unions overplay their hand? Yes. Do employers have more of an edge today? Yes.
> 
> Should both cooperate in the future? Would be nice but I doubt that will happen.



like he said, market dictates wage. it all starts with the homeowner. if wages doubled, so would the cost of every job and a lot less people would be able to afford to do do work on their homes and these carpenters who got the wage hike they wanted are sitting home. union workers are paid with state/town tax payers money.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> He confided to who? If you quote someone their name should be attached. Otherwise they are the mysterious un-named source. And how can you check that he actually said that and in what context? That's what the hell I'm talking about. You really should read articles with a more questioning attitude.
> 
> Your Forbes article mentions the job bank. Do you know how that came about? You probably think the union wanted it. The job bank was started by GM in 1984.
> 
> The article also complains of how unions were forced on the automobile industry back in 1935,I believe. The article doesn't mention the legislation limiting unions since they formed.


Did you read the article or just hut and peck for one thing to pick apart so that you could claim a psuedo victory. Did you skip the part that GM was paying nearly double the non union competitors?

You are a joke.


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

QCCI said:


> My opinion of the unions is good and bad. If they could remove the corruption and became more transparent that would definitely help. Otherwise they are losing steam and could be on there way out soon.


Like the min wage, they artificially and arbitrarily inflate wages. It's not good economics.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> I used to think that way,too. After all if you don't like it change or quit. But that leaves only Business to have power. Don't like the health hazards on the job. Quit. If you can afford too.
> Unions give balance to that power dynamic. But like everything there is a flow back and forth. Highs and lows. Did unions overplay their hand? Yes. Do employers have more of an edge today? Yes.
> 
> Should both cooperate in the future? Would be nice but I doubt that will happen.


No it doesn't. How in the world do other industries and professions survive without them? Unions just sway the power in the other direction and create inflation.

In your world everyone should unionize. That is ridiculous. Free markets need to be free.

Let me ask you this. When you hire someone to help you out, do you pay scale? Or do you pay what ever you can afford and what ever they will take?


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Like the min wage, they artificially and arbitrarily inflate wages. It's not good economics.


I would slightly disagree, although I agree to an extent in some classifications or geographic areas. It's not the base rate that's inflated, it's the fringe portion and then what the hall does with those monies.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

asgoodasdead said:


> like he said, market dictates wage. it all starts with the homeowner. if wages doubled, so would the cost of every job and a lot less people would be able to afford to do do work on their homes and these carpenters who got the wage hike they wanted are sitting home. union workers are paid with state/town tax payers money.


You are misinformed.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

QCCI said:


> I would slightly disagree, although I agree to an extent in some classifications or geographic areas. It's not the base rate that's inflated, it's the fringe portion and then what the hall does with those monies.


It's the base and benefits that are inflated. It's all a package. You can't separate it into parts and agree with some and not the rest. It's a package deal.

It's quite simply not needed in this day and age at all.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Did you read the article or just hut and peck for one thing to pick apart so that you could claim a psuedo victory. Did you skip the part that GM was paying nearly double the non union competitors?
> 
> You are a joke.


Did you read why the pay more? Or do you believe everything you read?

You have lots of opinions. But rarely do you have any facts.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It's the base and benefits that are inflated. It's all a package. You can't separate it into parts and agree with some and not the rest. It's a package deal. It's quite simple not needed in this day and age at all.


You can 100% separate the two, it is actually separated in the contracts, they are two separate costs. I'm sorry bud, but I disagree with you there.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Did you read why the pay more? Or do you believe everything you read?
> 
> You have lots of opinions. But rarely do you have any facts.


Did you? Union bullying.

Ignoring facts that I present is not the same as not having them.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

QCCI said:


> You can 100% separate the two, it is actually separated in the contracts, they are two separate costs. I'm sorry bud, but I disagree with you there.


But you can't have one without the other. They well never be separated. If they agree on wage but not benefits there is no contract. They use one to bargain for the other. You CANNOT separate the two.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Did you read why the pay more? Or do you believe everything you read?
> 
> You have lots of opinions. But rarely do you have any facts.


So do you pay scale? Do you charge scale?


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

Hey TNT when you get a contract for a hi-rise tower. I want to see your ad in the paper for skilled labor.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Needles said:


> Hey TNT when you get a contract for a hi-rise tower. I want to see your ad in the paper for skilled labor.


You can't do high rise work in Chicago if you aren't union.

But what you are saying is you can't have skilled labor without the union? That won't piss off most of the contractors on ct.


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Needles said:


> Hey TNT when you get a contract for a hi-rise tower. I want to see your ad in the paper for skilled labor.


 That should be easy . Since union guys search local papers for employment . And then hire them for half pay .


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> You can't do high rise work in Chicago if you aren't union.
> 
> But what you are saying is you can't have skilled labor without the union? That won't piss off most of the contractors on ct.


Are you afraid of the union? I would come work for you if you actually had a tower. I don't care if it was union or not. I don't like residential it is boring to me. But if you think you can pay me 20 bucks a hour to go vertical or form a deck system you got the wrong guy. :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Needles said:


> Are you afraid of the union? I would come work for you if you actually had a tower. I don't care if it was union or not. I don't like residential it is boring to me. But if you think you can pay me 20 bucks a hour to go vertical or form a deck system you got the wrong guy. :laughing:


Yes. I am always afraid of organizations that strong and bully fellow Americans. I fear what they do to our economy and political system.

Where did you get $20? What I said was let the market dictate the wage. My laborer makes $20 an hour.


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Yes. I am always afraid of organizations that strong and bully fellow Americans. I fear what they do to our economy and political system.
> 
> Where did you get $20? What I said was let the market dictate the wage. My laborer makes $20 an hour.



My brother's a laborer he makes 32 plus benefits. :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Needles said:


> My brother's a laborer he makes 32 plus benefits. :laughing:


Your point?

What do you part your help?


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

For those who think union tradesmen get paid too much then I guess you don't watch professional sports because they also make too much .Nothing wrong with sharing the wealth.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Eaglei said:


> For those who think union tradesmen get paid too much then I guess you don't watch professional sports because they also make too much .Nothing wrong with sharing the wealth.


They do. They make too much.


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> They do. They make too much.


So the owners should be able to keep it all.We all know they make too much but their the one's with the talent that everyone pay's to see . In reality we the fan's allow this to happen by paying outrageous ticket price's . We also set the price's the trades get paid by purchasing home's and leasing commercial space .This is why union's work in the big cities. What's wrong with sharing some of the wealth.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

you're seriously comparing professional sports to construction? are you drunk?


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Did you read the article or just hut and peck for one thing to pick apart so that you could claim a psuedo victory. Did you skip the part that GM was paying nearly double the non union competitors?
> 
> You are a joke.


Ok, prove they pay double like your article says.

Wages for top U.S. companies are about 50-55/hr. Wages for foreign auto companies in U.S. are 38-45.

Legacy costs are what makes the differrence. Those are the retirees and their benefits divided by the current workers hours worked. It's a made up number by the car companies. That number, expressed in an hourly rate, is then added to the current workers wage. Presto the magic $70+ /hr. Workers don't receive $70/hr. 

"About 10% of the car cost is worker wages the 90% fixed costs." Do you know what's in the 90%? Didn't think so. The variable costs in that 90% are advertising,management wages,warranty fees,research and development...etc. Those are not fixed.

I wish you guys would step up and show this windbag what facts are.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Eaglei said:


> So the owners should be able to keep it all.We all know they make too much but their the one's with the talent that everyone pay's to see . In reality we the fan's allow this to happen by paying outrageous ticket price's . We also set the price's the trades get paid by purchasing home's and leasing commercial space .This is why union's work in the big cities. What's wrong with sharing some of the wealth.


Unions work in big cities not because that's what people will pay but because that's what people have to pay.

There's nothing wrong with earning money. It's how you get it. It's obvious you don't run your own company our know that actual costs of paying an employee.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I dont think its too much money and non union should pay more but thats not a reality,

Its like all of the state worker unions. They vote themseleves raise on top of raise and elect people who will rubber stamp it. When the money isnt there, which it isnt....they raise taxes then claim the cost of living in the area is high. They created the high.

Construction unions do the same thing, and have many no bid contracts or no show crooked scams. So because it cost a fortune to have something built the realestate cost should be through the roof. Pretty obvious the non union, tax payers in the country have not been able to keep up.

Its not all some greedy corporation, the greedy unions have played a big part as well.


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It's obvious you don't run your own company our know that actual costs of paying an employee.


employees ***** about what's on their check, but don't realize that check cost the employer almost double by the time he paid the taxes, comp, matched the social security, FICA, and whatever else plus paid the payroll company to cut the check.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

asgoodasdead said:


> employees ***** about what's on their check, but don't realize that check cost the employer almost double by the time he paid the taxes, comp, matched the social security, FICA, and whatever else plus paid the payroll company to cut the check.


Absolutley correct and most people in general have no idea what they cost thier boss.

One of the main reasons residential labor hasnt chnaged much in 20 yrs is that instead of driving the cost up with legal business and those related expenses a large influx of illegal labor side stepped it.


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Unions work in big cities not because that's what people will pay but because that's what people have to pay.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with earning money. It's how you get it. It's obvious you don't run your own company our know that actual costs of paying an employee.


I made more money when I was working as a union carpenter than most contractors who owned their own company . It put me in the situation I'm in now,maintaining my investment properties and collecting rent. After I bought my first IP the rest was like playing monopoly. Young and retired bro.:laughing:


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

asgoodasdead said:


> you're seriously comparing professional sports to construction? are you drunk?


Just making a point that everyone thinks union tradesmen are over paid . No I'm not comparing to pro sports but remember the day when pro sports were not unionized and Ruth and whoever made peanuts while the owners kept it all for themselves. I'm not saying the small time contractors should be paying union wages ,but in a city like New York if you didn't have union trades you'd have contractors hiring inexperienced immigrants for next to nothing . In the outer boroughs this is what happens and every now and then you read about these inexperienced workers that cause buildings to collapse or get buried in trenches because they hadn't had the proper training.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Eaglei said:


> I made more money when I was working as a union carpenter than most contractors who owned their own company . It put me in the situation I'm in now,maintaining my investment properties and collecting rent. After I bought my first IP the rest was like playing monopoly. Young and retired bro.:laughing:


That just means that you were a better carpenter than most are businessmen. Most small businesses fail within the first 5 years.

I own my own company and I can guarantee I make more than you did when you were a carpenter. And I am purchasing my first, of many, investment properties in a few months.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Eaglei said:


> Just making a point that everyone thinks union tradesmen are over paid . No I'm not comparing to pro sports but remember the day when pro sports were not unionized and Ruth and whoever made peanuts while the owners kept it all for themselves. I'm not saying the small time contractors should be paying union wages ,but in a city like New York if you didn't have union trades you'd have contractors hiring inexperienced immigrants for next to nothing . In the outer boroughs this is what happens and every now and then you read about these inexperienced workers that cause buildings to collapse or get buried in trenches because they hadn't had the proper training.


Less than 6% of the work force is union.

And there are better ways to keep illegals out of the work force...a bus is the first thing that comes to mind.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Ok, prove they pay double like your article says.
> 
> Wages for top U.S. companies are about 50-55/hr. Wages for foreign auto companies in U.S. are 38-45.
> 
> ...


Here's a fact.

Unionized companies make, on average, 10-20% less profits than their non-union counterparts.

At the hay day of unions over 1/3rd of the workforce was union. It's more like 6% currently. Wonder why that is? Why do union companies not survive when their counterparts do? But your right, it not the union, it's all that other stuff.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Here's a fact.
> 
> Unionized companies make, on average, 10-20% less profits than their non-union counterparts.
> 
> At the hay day of unions over 1/3rd of the workforce was union. It's more like 6% currently. Wonder why that is? Why do union companies not survive when their counterparts do? But your right, it not the union, it's all that other stuff.


I worked both.
IMO, unions take care of the bums, the non workers, the lazy POS who know how to work the system. A business can only continue down that road for so long. Then, that laziness spreads like a wild fire, profits decrease, business folds. The non workers move on to infect another company.


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> That just means that you were a better carpenter than most are businessmen. Most small businesses fail within the first 5 years.
> 
> I own my own company and I can guarantee I make more than you did when you were a carpenter. And I am purchasing my first, of many, investment properties in a few months.


Wasn't my goal to offend you,by saying most I didn't mean you personally.While working as a union carpenter and foreman of mechanics before I retired ,I also ran my own company building exclusively on my properties for the sole purpose of commercial and residential income.I had a plan and was determined to stick with it. So for you I wish you nothing but good luck with your investments,it'll pay off in the long and short term.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Eaglei said:


> Wasn't my goal to offend you,by saying most I didn't mean you personally.While working as a union carpenter and foreman of mechanics before I retired ,I also ran my own company building exclusively on my properties for the sole purpose of commercial and residential income.I had a plan and was determined to stick with it. So for you I wish you nothing but good luck with your investments,it'll pay off in the long and short term.


Was your side company union?


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Was your side company union?


:laughing:


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## khrome96 (Aug 9, 2014)

I got accepted I got to go to a second orientation on Sept 5th


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## khrome96 (Aug 9, 2014)

asgoodasdead said:


> do you have to be a NYC resident? how long did it take to get to that point? I took the test in NJ in February and am just now being interviewed on Tuesday 7 months later.


No, you dont have to be a resident of nyc. It took me a month after high school because I completed a pre apprenticeship program


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Here's a fact.
> 
> Unionized companies make, on average, 10-20% less profits than their non-union counterparts.



Now lets put into perspective that unionized companies are dealing with a lot more money than their counterparts. 

Just to make the top 50 list around here you would have to break over 5 million in revenue. 

http://northwest.construction.com/n...nstruction_firms/2009/0401_TopContractors.asp

The top 15 of the list are all unionized. 

Now let the penis envy set in for a minute before you post a response. :laughing:


----------



## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Needles said:


> Now lets put into perspective that unionized companies are dealing with a lot more money than their counterparts.
> 
> Just to make the top 50 list around here you would have to break over 5 million in revenue.
> 
> ...


What does your or my penis have to do with this?

I'm talking profit not revenue. Again another sign that you may know your trade but not business.

Revenue means nothing if there is no profit. Profit is investment capital. It allows companies to expand and grow.

And did that say 2009?


----------



## Needles (May 18, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What does your or my penis have to do with this?
> 
> I'm talking profit not revenue. Again another sign that you may know your trade but not business.
> 
> ...


You think these companies are struggling to make a profit. Get real. The profit they do take in a year is still more than you will take in your life time.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Needles said:


> You think these companies are struggling to make a profit. Get real. The profit they do take in a year is still more than you will take in your life time.


Nannynannybooboo? This is so childish. First you talk about penis envy, which has nothing to do with the discussion and now they make more profits than I will see in a lifetime, a comparison that is amusing, but has not baring on the discussion. Of course they make more profit than I will see in a lifetime, it affects me not. I bet my margins are better. I bet my ROI is better.

The fact is Unions are dying and they will eventually be such an insignificant entity that they won't have the power and influence they have abused for so many years.

And my point is about cost the unions bare on a company. They reduce the amount of profits, thus reducing the ability for companies to expand and modernize.


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Nannynannybooboo? This is so childish. First you talk about penis envy, which has nothing to do with the discussion and now they make more profits than I will see in a lifetime, a comparison that is amusing, but has not baring on the discussion. Of course they make more profit than I will see in a lifetime, it affects me not. I bet my margins are better. I bet my ROI is better.
> 
> The fact is Unions are dying and they will eventually be such an insignificant entity that they won't have the power and influence they have abused for so many years.
> 
> And my point is about cost the unions bare on a company. They reduce the amount of profits, thus reducing the ability for companies to expand and modernize.



Maybe your ROI is better. Maybe. You think union companies are stuck in the past and not expanding and modernizing. That is laughable. 
These companies have expanded operation across the North American continent and the world. They are also on the cutting edge of modernization.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Needles said:


> Maybe your ROI is better. Maybe. You think union companies are stuck in the past and not expanding and modernizing. That is laughable.
> These companies have expanded operation across the North American continent and the world. They are also on the cutting edge of modernization.


Again, you just don't get it. I never said anything about them being stuck in the past. Or maybe you can quote where I did. I said that they don't have the same money to do what other non union companies can in the way of modernization and expansion.

They make, on average, 10-20% less profit than a non union company. So unless you have something else, that speaks for it self.


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Again, you just don't get it. I never said anything about them being stuck in the past. Or maybe you can quote where I did. I said that they don't have the same money to do what other non union companies can in the way of modernization and expansion.
> 
> They make, on average, 10-20% less profit than a non union company. So unless you have something else, that speaks for it self.


Would that be less profit based on what?

Come on you seen the numbers. If a company is doing a billion dollars in revenue and is taking 10-20% less profit than their non-union counterpart that by the proof of the ranking would 237 million. 

BTW you haven't even thought about what the non-unionized management team is making. The top rungs in the team are making 6 figures and not on the low end. Nor are we taking about the large per project bonuses that are dispersed base on performance and keeping numbers tight. A bonus of 20g's isn't unheard of. 

So what is the most you have bonused your management team for a project? :whistling Or would that affect your ROI?:laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Needles said:


> Would that be less profit based on what?
> 
> Come on you seen the numbers. If a company is doing a billion dollars in revenue and is taking 10-20% less profit than their non-union counterpart that by the proof of the ranking would 237 million.
> 
> ...


Do you know what profit is? Profit is profit. I would suggest getting a dictionary and looking words up.

How have I not thought about what the management teams of non unionized companies make. It's no different than union companies. BTW those numbers are based on profit and taken from profit.

Do you know what ROI is or even stands for? Do you know the difference between profit and profit margin. Like I said, it is clear that you are a good carpenter but know nothing about business or the terms that you are throwing around. Nor is what you are saying have anything to do with what I am talking about.

We are not talking about what I make. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand. You are trying to compare apples to oranges to prove that pineapples are bananas.

Here is the point. Unions cost companies more in labor. That money cannot be spent to expand and grow like their non union counterpart. It's just simple math. If I make $1,000,000 in revenue and you make the same, you seem to think that we are in the same class. But here is the important number. I make 25% profit and you make 10. Who has more money to grow? That's simple math.

Your top 15 mean nothing. Revenue is only one factor. I can have a $100,000 company make more profit than a $1,000,000. It's all about the expenses.


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

You say these companies are not expanding. But have no proof that unionized labor is forcing them not to expand. 

There isn't a major metro area Skanska isn't in. They are a worldwide company. They expanded into the US by buying up existing companies. Baugh construction being one of them. Turner construction has a very extensive network in the US. They are mostly a project management company with only two self perform division in the US. Turner is owned by a German company called Hochtief AG which is owned by ACS Groupo. Turner itself has also been acquiring companies. EE Cruz, Flatiron, and Clark Builders. They are also worldwide. 

If you really want to go down the rabbit hole. Look up the top GC in the world. Then research what companies they have as subsidiaries. You may learn that heavy construction worldwide is controlled by a small group of major league players. Union labor isn't taking them down it part of the game. 
The only one having a apples to orange debate here is you. When it comes to big league construction you don't have a clue what you are talking about.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Needles said:


> You say these companies are not expanding. But have no proof that unionized labor is forcing them not to expand.
> 
> There isn't a major metro area Skanska isn't in. They are a worldwide company. They expanded into the US by buying up existing companies. Baugh construction being one of them. Turner construction has a very extensive network in the US. They are mostly a project management company with only two self perform division in the US. Turner is owned by a German company called Hochtief AG which is owned by ACS Groupo. Turner itself has also been acquiring companies. EE Cruz, Flatiron, and Clark Builders. They are also worldwide.
> 
> ...


I NEVER said they were not expanding. I said they cannot expand and modernize like their non union counterpart. 

Do you even read my posts?

Or the thread? Go back and read. You want to make this about one industry. I had a discussion with a welder. While the welders union, boilermakers, is alive and well, this discussion isn't about just one industry. I am discussing unions in general. Sorry but it's just a fact. I mentioned airlines, auto...

Unions do nothing but drive up costs and carrying far too much political sway.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Here's a fact.
> 
> Unionized companies make, on average, 10-20% less profits than their non-union counterparts.
> 
> At the hay day of unions over 1/3rd of the workforce was union. It's more like 6% currently. Wonder why that is? Why do union companies not survive when their counterparts do? But your right, it not the union, it's all that other stuff.


Good that you can quote facts. But 6% is the non public sector and 33% is public sector. So your 1/2 right.

Wonder why unions membership is down? You think it's only because of wages? or corruption? You haven't studied much history concerning this topic.

First, what have unions achieved for the rest of us?
www.unionplus.org/about/labor-union/36-reasons-thank-union

In a way unions are putting themselves out of business by getting everyone: the 40 hour work week, overtime pay, healthcare benefits...... Since the work environment is better, workers forget how that change occurred.

Further, the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947 restricted The Wagner Act which gave unions their power to bargain. And political policies went against unions, too.

Now it might surprise you that the top auto producing countries, China, Japan, Germany and the U.S. all have auto unions. Even China. 

What is more surprising is that the foreign transplant auto makers don't have unions here but at home they do. Also, the foreign auto makers chose the states with some of the highest poverty rates in the U.S.so the workers are grateful for any work. What's surprising is that they pay above those states median labor rate when they could have probably paid less.

Why focus on the 10% labor expense of a cars manufacturing cost? Where is the big savings on that? Ever hear of the 80/20 rule? There are bigger savings to be made in other areas of auto production.

Now what gets lost in the discussion is poor management decisions. Remember when Japanese cars were crap? Now everyone loves their cars. The Big Three U.S. manufactures put out some crappy cars in the 70-80's. FORD was fix or repair daily. They virtually handed over the U.S. market to the better quality cars of Japan. Plus, Toyota improved the way cars were built with their Just In Time production lines which produced better quality cars and lower inventory costs.

So the 10-20% less profit is only on one aspect of production costs (10% labor) not the entire cost of manufacturing a car. In reality they pay an additional 2% of profits toward the union worker.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Actually capitalism created the 40 hour week-8 hour work day. I believe it was Henry Ford who first implemented it back in 1914.

Pretty much everything that unions claim has roots and was already taking effect prior to the unions involvement. Maybe I'm not the one that needs to look up the history on things.

Unions have always fought modernization and improvements siting it costs jobs. They support over regulation and often are the wrong side of capitalism.

I like that your source is a site sponsored by unions.

Also, China may have an auto Union, but they make something like $320 a month.

And recent history, well after American cars made a come back...all but Ford needed to be bailed out.

Again I ask you sir, do you pay your help scale? Do you even charge scale? You sound like you are all for unions, are you planning on going union? At least answer the first one, I have asked it a few times, but you seem not to want to actually participate.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Ford was a little late to the 8 hour party. Try the 1860's. And no employers were saying "hey, 8 hour day. What a great idea." There were strikes to get that 8 hour day.

Ford was a great capitalist but his workers worked 9 hour shifts until he realized he could add a third shift with the 8 hour day. 

Do you only stop on the first search you do? 

Did you expect the Heritage Foundation to list union labor law support?


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Top selling car in the world for the last 12 out of 13 years? Toyota Corolla.


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

If you enjoyed Labor Day today, thank a union carpenter. Our predecessors fought for the holiday. 

TNT: 

I don't get why you think the unions are fighting modernization. You might be mistaking the fact that unions have maybe wanted PEOPLE to do the work, instead of MACHINES. I understand that it's more efficient and economical, with higher potential for profits for the companies to use machines, but in a simplified way, the unions wanted their people to do the work. 

And if the unions are so against modernization, why is it that the building addition I am working on, which is relatively small, (about 75'x150') is being laid out with a total station, and not batter boards and strings? 

And if union workers are lazy, why is it that I (we) go and bust our collective asses everyday? And if we're such slow workers, why is our job ahead of schedule?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

JR Shepstone said:


> If you enjoyed Labor Day today, thank a union carpenter. Our predecessors fought for the holiday.
> 
> Guess what? I worked today. I don't thank them for another holiday, nor would I celebrate a day for unions.
> 
> ...


Please quote me saying they were lazy? Why don't people actually read a thread? I never said union guys are lazy.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Ford was a little late to the 8 hour party. Try the 1860's. And no employers were saying "hey, 8 hour day. What a great idea." There were strikes to get that 8 hour day.
> 
> Ford was a great capitalist but his workers worked 9 hour shifts until he realized he could add a third shift with the 8 hour day.
> 
> ...


For that matter you could trace it back to the early 1800's. But I guess you must be the only learned one on the subject. 

It also funny that you leave out the part that Ford double his workers pay at the same time. So you can paint it as a greedy capitalist, but give the whole picture.

The fact is Ford was not behind the times and was a revolutionary when it came to business and modernization. No union forced him to convert to a 40 hour work week. It was the numbers. It was production. The rest of the manufacturers fought it until they too saw the numbers. So say it was the unions all you want, but it was the numbers that changed the world. And the new deal had nearly 5 decades of data to back it up. So it wasn't some magical moment that unions invented and they do not deserve all or even most of the credit.

Once again sir, do you pay union scale to your help? Funny how you avoid these questions. Hmmmm....


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> For that matter you could trace it back to the early 1800's. But I guess you must be the only learned one on the subject.
> 
> It also funny that you leave out the part that Ford double his workers pay at the same time. So you can paint it as a greedy capitalist, but give the whole picture.
> 
> ...


Well it wasn't Ford like you said. In fact President Grant signed a law requiring ship yard workers only work 8 hr shifts. But unlike your revision of history, employers didn't come up with the 8 hour day. 

If you study the Labor Movement, nothing was granted by employers in those early years. Union activists were attacked and some killed. But you're right, employers were thoughtful capitalists.

Ford did do some advanced things. But he had his security force attack a group of union activist passing out fliers at a public bridge leading to the entrance to his plant. You can look up the rest yourself. 

My interest is in the your revisionist history. Like I said before, you have plenty of opinions but hardly any facts.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Well it wasn't Ford like you said. In fact President Grant signed a law requiring ship yard workers only work 8 hr shifts. But unlike your revision of history, employers didn't come up with the 8 hour day.
> 
> If you study the Labor Movement, nothing was granted by employers in those early years. Union activists were attacked and some killed. But you're right, employers were thoughtful capitalists.
> 
> ...


Again paint they picture all you want. The facts are the facts. Ford wasn't fixed to go the 8 hit work week. He only did so for economical reasons. And was the first to do so without unions. THAT IS THE POINT. You don't need unions to make change. Why did he double their pay? No one forced him to. And guys what? When the other manufacturers saw that it worked and how much he was making they changed. 

Everyone can see you avoiding the question of what you pay. The proof is in your actions. You aren't union nor will you go union because you know it would destroy your business. There is no way you could do what you do and charge union scale. The only thing you have is trying to gain fair with the union guys here. So why aren't you union? Why don't you pay scale? 

At least I'm consistent.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

If anyone wants to truly educate themselves in the truths about unions abd hire they don't help but hurt business abd the economy start here. http://www.heritage.org/research/re...-how-labor-unions-affect-jobs-and-the-economy

It is a conservative site but includes all references for it's claims. These references are from studies that you can look into yourself.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Again paint they picture all you want. The facts are the facts. Ford wasn't fixed to go the 8 hit work week. He only did so for economical reasons. And was the first to do so without unions. THAT IS THE POINT. You don't need unions to make change. Why did he double their pay? No one forced him to. And guys what? When the other manufacturers saw that it worked and how much he was making they changed.
> 
> Everyone can see you avoiding the question of what you pay. The proof is in your actions. You aren't union nor will you go union because you know it would destroy your business. There is no way you could do what you do and charge union scale. The only thing you have is trying to gain fair with the union guys here. So why aren't you union? Why don't you pay scale?
> 
> At least I'm consistent.


Your m.o. is to say something you can't back up. Then when facts are against you, you try the personal attacks. When that doesn't work, you try to change the focus of the discussion.

I don't care that you want to know about my business. Has nothing to do with what has reduced union membership, how the Labor Movement moved employers to provide the benefits you now enjoy or whether unions can continue in the future.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> Your m.o. is to say something you can't back up. Then when facts are against you, you try the personal attacks. When that doesn't work, you try to change the focus of the discussion.
> 
> I don't care that you want to know about my business. Has nothing to do with what has reduced union membership, how the Labor Movement moved employers to provide the benefits you now enjoy or whether unions can continue in the future.


I've backed it up. Every time I have, you have widen the scope of the conversation.

You say that wages is a low portion of the cost. But as the facts point out, just the gold package health care benefits added $1200 to the cost of a GM vehicle.

It's not a personal attack to see if you practice what you preach. It's not personal just business. You have this grandiose love for unions and what they have done to "protect and better" you, yet you run your business like a true capitalist. I just find that interesting.

You deny that unions have any negative effect on business or the economy, yet you don't run your business like a union. My point of asking was not to attack but to prove a point. Deep down you don't run your business like a union because what I say is true. It would destroy your business. You would not be able to compete. You would lose much of your customer base.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I've backed it up. Every time I have, you have widen the scope of the conversation.
> 
> You say that wages is a low portion of the cost. But as the facts point out, just the gold package health care benefits added $1200 to the cost of a GM vehicle.


You implied that labor is a major auto manufacturing cost when it's only 10%. No back up there, eh? You said Capitalist gave us all those benefits. Certainly but not willingly. Ford created the 8 hour day? He used it but it was started way before him. 

The $1200 health care cost per vehicle. How'd he come up with that number? If benefits cost $15-/hr for union workers that would mean it would take 80 hours to make a car. Does that sound right? 

You have finally started to use facts. Who wrote it and who they work for figure into how truthful the fact is. Heritage Foundation is a conservative think tank. I'm not saying whether that's good or bad. But you have to evaluate their motives just as much as the union information. Anyone can cherry pick information these days.

Want to see the connections between companies or people? www.muckety.com

How does your business policies have anything to do with the auto industry unions?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> You implied that labor is a major auto manufacturing cost when it's only 10%. No back up there, eh? You said Capitalist gave us all those benefits. Certainly but not willingly. Ford created the 8 hour day? He used it but it was started way before him.
> 
> The $1200 health care cost per vehicle. How'd he come up with that number? If benefits cost $15-/hr for union workers that would mean it would take 80 hours to make a car. Does that sound right?
> 
> ...


Says the guy who used a union funded site fir his facts. At least mine gave references for all it's claims. So one can actually see that's it's not propaganda.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10business/economy/10leonhardt.html? r=0

If you use the legacy costs then it comes out to the $1200 figure. But a worker's true benefit cost is only around $800 per vehicle. A non union auto maker has less generous benefits so might be a 1/3 less.

See how you can play with the numbers? And if you work for a think tank, you're expected to make their case however you can.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

olzo55 said:


> www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10business/economy/10leonhardt.html? r=0
> 
> If you use the legacy costs then it comes out to the $1200 figure. But a worker's true benefit cost is only around $800 per vehicle. A non union auto maker has less generous benefits so might be a 1/3 less.
> 
> See how you can play with the numbers? And if you work for a think tank, you're expected to make their case however you can.


How us the legacy cost not labor cost? It's a benefit if a either that has retired. Without the union it wouldn't be so high.

Again, at least my source sites is sources. 
Lets face it, so far you have sited a union backed source and now the ny times. These aren't exactly unbiased. Not that they are wrong, but stop pointing fingers at sources. They all have their slant.

And you can say that unions or organized labor started the 8 hour work day, but it didn't catch on abd no laws wetter passed for 50 years and that was after it was proven to be an economical winner.

Unions are exactly what the article says, a cartel.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Any organization that would attack hard working fellow Americans needs to be put down or at least in their place.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

They attack because that is what bullies do


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## asgoodasdead (Aug 30, 2013)

olzo55 said:


> Labor costs is rather generic term unless you're an accountant. To me it means what's on your pay stub. And if you search the term labor costs , you'll get both your explanation and mine as a result.


what's on your paystub is your WAGE. how would your pay be your cost? that makes no sense. your costs would be your tools, gas, etc. labor COSTS is what it COSTS the employer. that includes WAGES, benefits, pension, etc.


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> And this is what I would expect from a union guy, nothing but jaw jacking and tough talk. Tell ya what, you union loving liberals can keep on loving Obama and the democrats all you want. You can keep bullying and intimidating hard working Americans. I will unsubscribe to this thread so you guys can spoon.



TNT finally got beat up in a thread. Mark this one down on the calendar. :laughing: 

Oh because I am in the carpenter union I am a obama loving liberal. You still don't know what you are talking about. 
There is a reason I haven't seen the inside of a union hall in over 4 years. To busy working for my employers than worrying about union politics. :laughing:

I already kind of showed you my resume. One of these days I'll show you a pay check stub. But first I fly to Chicago so you can tell me to my face I make to much money. Because I can afford it. :laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

FramingPro said:


> Care to elaborate on that? Im curious


In my area the union carpenter Jobs are very scarce, everyone knew it. I once was working on a job building a Casino, the Foreman would hand the guy his check that was working with me tell him we don't need you anymore you can leave now, we paid you for the whole day. He did this three times that day. It was my first day on the job. Not sure if he was trying to intimidate me or what. Needless to say I stayed on. I never did figure out what those guys did. 

There must of been 2 or 3 hundred guys working at the time. It was everyman for himself. Guys would flat out, bold face make up a lie about others so they wouldn't get layed off. It was really cut throat out there. Thing is I'm not sure the higher ups knew it was going on. As for the company DPR Construction they were great. 

It was like a virus within. You had to be on your toes all the time. Almost all carpentry jobs here are non Union. With so few union carpenter positions available it was ripe with backstabbing by fellow carpenters.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

The union carpenters I know tell me they get pushed like crazy to close up walls even before sprinklers or wiring is done. This allows them to look as though they are running on a schedule and then bill out the repair work to do it again. I find that a unethical.

I also hate the whole stand together thing when it suits them but undermines our proffession. The guys who work or stay busy usually kiss up by doing side work for free to the people hiring them. Nothing irrates me more than when they ask me for a price as if they are doing me a favor then cry about the money. They tell you to join and brag about what they make then use union buddies to do the work to save a nickel.

And its not that they are hacks its just residential work uses different skill on regular basis as well as tools.


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