# Re-Plumbing/Turn Off Water?



## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

747 said:


> If i'm not mistaken pex has a history in the U.K. before becoming popular here in the States.


You don't hear about the problems that they have experienced with it there because they lack a strong tort law system through most of Europe.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

The problem with PEX is not the quality of the material itself so much as the quality of the installer. With PEX you have to install it with as few fittings as possible and you need to check the crimps with a gauge. Every fitting reduces flow (reduction in i.d.) and is a potential leak. I believe the manufacturer doesn't recommend runs shorter than 2'. It does much better than CPVC or copper when exposed to freezing temperatures and is much more economical to run. As long as you run it from point A to B it is a better product than CPVC and copper with regards to temperature and corrosive water. It can be pressure tested right away which is a plus.

CPVC is brittle. It also releases gases both in the air and water. Nobody is sure what the long term exposure to these gases will do. The glue joints have been known to fail. You have to let the glue dry for several hours before you can perform any kind of pressure test. You don't need a whole lot of skill to install it and it is considerably cheaper than copper. 

Copper is both expensive material and labor wise. It can be sensative to well water and freezing temperatures. Flux can also cause it to degrade if to much of it is used or allowed to puddle inside the fitting and it is sensitive to dissimiair connections. It can be pressure tested soon after installation. Copper is supperior in strenth to both PEX and CPVC for applications such as tub diverters.

From what I've read and seen of PEX I think that is where the future of supply lines is headed. I always kind of felt CPVC was for plumbers who couldn't sweat pipe. Just my two cents, carry on gentleman.


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## naptown CR (Feb 20, 2009)

protechplumbing said:


> Yes, CPVC will last 20 years.......providing that it is not exposed to any of the stuff I mentioned above about it.
> 
> How did you come to this conclusion that pex is the "next polybutlylene"?
> What evidence do you have to support this? Do you even know what were the causes of the polybutylene failures? Or are you one of these guys that thinks "they both have crimp rings so it's all crap"?
> ...


I never said that pex WILL become the next polybutelene.
What I said is that it is a similar system and as you stated there are crimp rings. One of the biggest problem with the crimp rings is not with the manufacture or design but with installer error. Guys who think crimping the joints and going is enough and don't adjust their crimpers or check crimps.
All systems have their advantages and disadvantages.
We could debate this all night and into the new year if we wanted to. It is a matter of what the individual plumber or contractor prefers. They are all legal and suited for the purpose. Going back to the OP's question there has not been an answer as to what caused the leak. Judging by the date of the post i would suspect a pin hole or failed solder joint. It has not been cold enough around here to have a pipe burst until a day or so ago.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

The only times i have come across problems with copper freezing is when it has been installed improperly and no lagging has been used. No matter if you use pex in a possible freeze location or copper in the same area they both need to be lagged and if they are then neither will freeze. I have seen both frozen and split before so we all know neither is 100% when used in freezing conditions. Also it's not the solder thats the main issue for pipe corrosion but the acid thats in some of the fluxes. If you use these fluxes then make sure you clean the left over flux of the pipe as it will corrode the pipe. I have used acid free flux ever since i come across it 6 years ago.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> The only times i have come across problems with copper freezing is when it has been installed improperly and no lagging has been used. No matter if you use pex in a possible freeze location or copper in the same area they both need to be lagged and if they are then neither will freeze. I have seen both frozen and split before so we all know neither is 100% when used in freezing conditions. Also it's not the solder thats the main issue for pipe corrosion but the acid thats in some of the fluxes. If you use these fluxes then make sure you clean the left over flux of the pipe as it will corrode the pipe. I have used acid free flux ever since i come across it 6 years ago.


I've got to ask what you mean by lagging. I'm assuming you meant to insulate the pipes, but am not familiar with the term.

Type slowly, I've already learned one new thing today and may be near my daily limit. :>)

Good Luck
Dave


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

DavidC said:


> I've got to ask what you mean by lagging. I'm assuming you meant to insulate the pipes, but am not familiar with the term.
> 
> Type slowly, I've already learned one new thing today and may be near my daily limit. :>)
> 
> ...


Yep lagging = Pipe insulation.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

PEX has a much higher freeze tolerance than copper. I have seen demonstrations where a section has been filled with water and dipped in liquid nitrogen. The PEX was then allowed to thaw and there were no splits or cracks.


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## TulsaRemodeler (Nov 24, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> PEX has a much higher freeze tolerance than copper. I have seen demonstrations where a section has been filled with water and dipped in liquid nitrogen. The PEX was then allowed to thaw and there were no splits or cracks.


 I did a lot of work for a dumb HO who let a new apartment he had built in his barn freeze numerous times, pex. Never leaked but hit me up in five-ten years.. :whistling. Maybe 3


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> PEX has a much higher freeze tolerance than copper. I have seen demonstrations where a section has been filled with water and dipped in liquid nitrogen. The PEX was then allowed to thaw and there were no splits or cracks.


 
They use a brand in the UK like pex but it's a barrier pipe so twin walled with a special internal membrane to stop ingress of atmosphere and this stuff is way stronger than the pex i seen over here and that stuff has split under freezing but if i remember correctly water expands by about 9% when it reaches freezing point. But when water is frozen extremely quickly with liquid nitrogen the water has no time to form the complex crystals that make the area of water larger in size. Thats more than likely the reason the pipe didn't freeze crack or shatter from the extreme cold. Pex is deff better at expanding than copper but if correctly installed then neither should freeze. I see more galv water mains pop over here than i see copper. But again only due to them not being correctly installed. I ain't seen one install in the US yet that has had pipe insulation used. Even when in freeze areas.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> They use a brand in the UK like pex but it's a barrier pipe so twin walled with a special internal membrane to stop ingress of atmosphere and this stuff is way stronger than the pex i seen over here and that stuff has split under freezing but if i remember correctly water expands by about 9% when it reaches freezing point. But when water is frozen extremely quickly with liquid nitrogen the water has no time to form the complex crystals that make the area of water larger in size. Thats more than likely the reason the pipe didn't freeze crack or shatter from the extreme cold. Pex is deff better at expanding than copper but if correctly installed then neither should freeze. I see more galv water mains pop over here than i see copper. But again only due to them not being correctly installed. I ain't seen one install in the US yet that has had pipe insulation used. Even when in freeze areas.


Agreed on the PEX (nitrogen and expansion qualities) and proper insulation (lagging). Water mains are actually ductile iron with a cement lining or concrete and are usually installed well below the frost line. Services are typically copper or ABS however I have seen galvanized ones also.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Agreed on the PEX (nitrogen and expansion qualities) and proper insulation (lagging). Water mains are actually ductile iron with a cement lining or concrete and are usually installed well below the frost line. Services are typically copper or ABS however I have seen galvanized ones also.


 
I have no idea why but a lot of older houses in this area have the mains water going to the loft space out of galv pipe then back down to connect to the system. I guess at one time they maybe had storage tanks in the loft like they use in the UK but i aint seen one yet. These are always the pipes that freeze in the winter as no body goes in their lofts and the old galv pipe blows out on every elbow. 

I guess they were set up like this at some point as it's the only explanation i have for the mains water going into the loft before anwhere else.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

I have pex running underground to my outdoor furnace. The water fill line has a couple of feet that are exposed and it freeze/thaws numerous times each season with no problems. Unless you count it being frozen when I want to use it. I did made a removable section to store inside to counter that. 

Good Luck
Dave


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## Matt Weinstein (Nov 20, 2009)

Problems with PEX are well known everywhere with large class action lawsuits against at least a few makers. Zurn and Kitec both have lawsuits against them and there may be more. Google search "Pex Class Action" to see for your self.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

Actually the lawsuits were against the fittings, not the pex pipe.

They were all isolated events. Kitec and wirsbo were in the Nevada area and the failures were due to yellow brass de-zincification which only happened in that particular water chemistry, no where else.

The zurn suit was due to a bad batch of fittings that zurn cranked out. Poor machining practice caused the rapid stress corrosion cracking within the brass fittings. I won’t make excuses for zurn. Let there quality control slip and they will pay dearly for it now.

Point is, the pex wasn't the problem.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

ARI001 said:


> Agreed on the PEX (nitrogen and expansion qualities) and proper insulation (lagging). Water mains are actually ductile iron with a cement lining or concrete and are usually installed well below the frost line. Services are typically copper or ABS however I have seen galvanized ones also.


There is no such thing as a Acrylonitrile-Butadiene-Styrene water service.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> There is no such thing as a Acrylonitrile-Butadiene-Styrene water service.


Your right. Polyethylene (sp?)


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

If it was blue, black or milky white than yes, polyethylene.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

protechplumbing said:


> If it was blue, black or milky white than yes, polyethylene.


All I've ever seen is the black rolls, which is why I mistakenly referred to it as abs. I am aware that it comes in stick form and have seen blue for bypass lines in 6" diameters.


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