# To Report or Not to Report



## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

Hi Guys,

I am wrestling with a situation and want your opinions. This sewer line work is taking place at my parents house about an hour away from me. I'll be going in afterwords to do hook ups. 

They sent me pics today knowing I would enjoy them, but instead I flipped out.

NO TRENCH BOXES:blink:
NO HARD HATS  (only one guy has it on)

Look how deep this guy is!:furious:

Do I report this or forget I saw it.

UPDATE: Situation Corrected after contacting company.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

LNG24 said:


> They sent me pics today knowing I would enjoy them,...
> NO TRENCH BOXES:blink:
> 
> Look how deep this guy is!:furious:


Those guys are nuts.:blink:


You know what to do w/o anyone's input.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

If you report it, how long will your parents road be ripped up and incomplete?


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

I guess with residential sewer line construction we don't tamp the gravel under the pipe either? I hate reporting stuff. I've done some borderline things in my time, but even when I didn't use a trench box, I'd set up 2 pieces of 3/4" ply held apart by 4x4's. I've used that little set up when having to dive down to get to a tie in buried really deep...like 5'!


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

genecarp said:


> If you report it, how long will your parents road be ripped up and incomplete?


If that guy gets crushed to death...how long will this project be put on hold while OSHA investigates them?

There is NO WAY he is surviving a collapse that deep.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

question....how you going to feel if the trench collapses and kills someone knowing you could have stopped it? calling someone for minor violations is questionable. someone can die quite easily in that trench.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

LNG24 said:


> If that guy gets crushed to death...how long will this project be put on hold while OSHA investigates them?
> 
> There is NO WAY he is surviving a collapse that deep.


HOW many days do they have left to backfill? one, they will be done tommorrow, as far as being responsible for someones safety. thats bull. these are grown men. ever hear of NATURAL SELECTION? it may sound harsh but people need to be responsible for themselves, in this situation....


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

I would take these photos to the owner of the company and give him the opportunity to make corrections. 

But if it is like this the same day I bring it to the owners attention.......All bets are off. Bring on the authorities!


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

LNG24 said:


> If that guy gets crushed to death...how long will this project be put on hold while OSHA investigates them?
> 
> There is NO WAY he is surviving a collapse that deep.


I'd be scared if i was laying down in that trench but i think those guys know what they are doing. I don't think osha knows anything.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

genecarp said:


> these are grown men. ever hear of NATURAL SELECTION? it may sound harsh but people need to be responsible for themselves, in this situation....


Believe it or not some men just don't know better.

I have caused work to stop on sites like this, and given guys hell for being unsafe.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

I say take it up with the owner. I want everyone who hasn't done some unsafe dumb ****e to raise there hands. 

Take the photo to the owner and* nicely *explain your concern*s NICELY.*

Let him know they did a great job and that you were really concern about the safety of his guys after seeing the picture and discuss the osha stuff with him


If osha fines him it might be big or cause him problems. Can any of you guys afford an osha fine??

I am not condoning what he did. Only putting the shoe on the other foot. We all loose touch sometimes, we all make mistakes sometimes, we all do dumb ****z sometimes. 

We sometimes just need to be reminded of the right thing to do sometimes.

If he acts like a prick let him have it. If he seems legit let it go

Just my 2 cents


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

LNG24 said:


> If that guy gets crushed to death...how long will this project be put on hold while OSHA investigates them?
> 
> There is NO WAY he is surviving a collapse that deep.


As a Heavy Rescue Certified Technician, I can tell you that guy is as good as dead if that caves in.

While he might survive for a minute under the mud, what ALWAYS happens is that the machine operator freaks out and starts digging with the bucket and ends up killing the buried guy--usually by decapitation.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

tgeb said:


> Believe it or not some men just don't know better.
> 
> I have caused work to stop on sites like this, and given guys hell for being unsafe.


Well, I'm one big osha violation and have been for 40 years. (knock on wood). Now if I'm on a government job it's by the book, but anyplace else it's common sense. Driving to and from work is the most dangerous part of my day... If that trench caved you'd get two or three feet of sand at the bottom.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Greg Di said:


> As a Heavy Rescue Certified Technician, I can tell you that guy is as good as dead if that caves in.
> 
> While he might survive for a minute under the mud, what ALWAYS happens is that the machine operator freaks out and starts digging with the bucket and ends up killing the buried guy--usually by decapitation.


What mud?? It's sand.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

K2 said:


> What mud?? It's sand.


Sand + water [notice the raincoat in the first shot] + truck traffic [dumper in second shot] = ???


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Celtic said:


> Sand + water [notice the raincoat in the first shot] + truck traffic [dumper in second shot] = ???


Yeah whatever.. I've had enough close calls in trenches to know what to be worried about. 
That's the problem with osha. They have no experience modification. They have the same rules for a 19 year old kid with braces and a hellacious hangover as they do for a guy with 40 years experience at being safe. (touch wood)

I know you guys break the rules too. Everybody does. At least here they do.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

You've publically posted the pictures with a statement that you think their safety is in jeopardy.

If something does happen and an investigation finds your statement with these pictures, does that potentially make you liable too?

Do something about it. 

Which would feel worse;

a) Calling the owner and telling him that their crew is currently undertaking an operation contrary to minimum OSHA requirements?

b) Not calling the owner and something happens when you had the fore-knowledge that you could have done something.


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

We did a job in Greenwich a couple of years ago and had Joken do the utility tie ins crossing the Post Rd.

Good Company, everyone wore hardhats, but then again we were on the Post Rd.

We all push the limits from time to time. Is it right ? No. But it happens. They know when not to, although anything can happen.


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## Renegade 1 LI (Oct 2, 2008)

This is not even a marginal trench close to 5', it looks like about 8' in class c sandy soil & not even a ladder in sight. With the weight of that truck at not even a 1 on 1 from the wheels to the bottom of the trench & not a very stable looking road that has all the right makings for disaster. A trench box is not that expensive or hard to use or widen the cut & bench it to save a little room vs sloping the whole cut. I too have done my share of stupid things too, but after a few close calls & realizing it simply isn't worth it for safety or financially. We do a lot of public works jobs & safety has become even more important than the work it's self, but if you get used to doing it that way all the time it becomes second nature. We were putting a sewer main in one time & someone called OSHA & even though we were ok with our excavation it was enlightening to see them at work & it showed that you are dealing with people that will not reason with you so be prepared for the consequences if they come & find something wrong.


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

K2 said:


> Yeah whatever.. I've had enough close calls in trenches to know what to be worried about.
> That's the problem with osha. They have no experience modification. They have the same rules for a 19 year old kid with braces and a hellacious hangover as they do for a guy with 40 years experience at being safe. (touch wood)
> 
> I know you guys break the rules too. Everybody does. At least here they do.


No one ever wakes up in the morning and says "Today, I'm going to have a trench collapse in on me", but yet people are killed all the time.

Stay safe is all I can say.


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## AtlRemodeling (Jan 23, 2008)

K2 said:


> What mud?? It's sand.


Sand can certainly kill you as well. A number of years ago we were building a 12' retaining wall. The developer did not have room to properly bench the sandy soil at the back of the cut. I was in the process of backfilling the newly laid course of block when a section of "sand" broke loose and collapsed in the exact area the entire crew of six had just left. 

The impact was so hard it shattered 3 courses of the Allan Block wall we were installing. If anyone had been in the area they would have dead immediately.

Learned a very valuable lesson that day and never worked on a job again where the cut was not properly stabilized, benched or sloped. I would call the owner and based upon his reaction would certainly pass the info along to correct authority.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Here is some "fun" readin for anyone interested. 

A few Fatals investigated by OSHA. :sad:
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/sea...ilter=FACT_STATIC&p_status=CURRENT&p_logger=1

Here is a very good link for simple education in trench safety, this used to be a free site but they are now charging fro the full course. 
http://www.trenchsafety.org/trench/sample/buriedalive.htmlhttp://www.trenchsafety.org/


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

tgeb said:


> Here is some "fun" readin for anyone interested.
> 
> A few Fatals investigated by OSHA. :sad:
> http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/sea...ilter=FACT_STATIC&p_status=CURRENT&p_logger=1
> ...


 
interesting, thanks


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## wellbuilthome (Feb 5, 2008)

Wow thanks guys , great reading , I will definitely work safer in the future . Most guys i know use a 30" over dig on a full basement and we've been working in the trenches forming blocking stucco etc . Ive never had a cave in and never gave it much thought till now . I will find my sewer line depth and go from there :notworthy Thanks John


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Basement/foundation excavations are handled differently and are exempt from some of the trench excavation guide lines.

This from: 
http://www.osha.gov/Publications/OSHA2226/2226.html


> OSHA's Excavation and Trenching Standard
> 
> What does the OSHA standard cover, and what protections does it offer?
> 
> ...


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

wellbuilthome said:


> I was wondering at what depth i am required to use a trench box. next week i have to hook up my first sewer line. I popped the man holes in the street and i think the pipes are down 7' I should have a 10' plastic stub entering the property and i think i will be down around 5'5 I don't have to dig in the street (I'm not insured for that ) but there are all kinds of engineers running around the site and i would not want to have a run in with OSHA. So far we hooked up leader drains to a DEP catch basin in the street (We dug the last 4' with pick & shovel and had to get a permit and post a 25,000doller bond ) We dug a electric under ground about 3' deep. I dig lots of basements and cellar stair ways and never have them cave in . The dirt here is real hard pan and doesn't cave in much . Could i build a 3/4 ply wood box to satisfy the hard hats? could i dig the area around the hole down a few feet ? whats the deal ? I guess i could rent a trench box for a day. thanks for the replies in advance .


 
This is where I use to use the plywood, but I know it does not meet the minimum standards. It always seemed that we had to use it the last 8-10 feet when we got to the lateral. For the record; My guys laid the pipe up till this point. I got in the trench when doing the final tie in because of this. In our area, we always try to get the laterals up to a 4' depth, but it I still found some 5 deep. Anything over that I stepped back (benched).


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## Vinny (Jul 21, 2007)

L, Has there been any reaction yet from the buisness owner??

I remember some years back taking such risks myself, and knowing now what I didnt know then, makes my spine tingle. It was stupid, plain and simple.

It was only a few years ago when a sewer contractor doing a building connection repair in Norwalk Connecticut was killed when the trench collapsed. He had a wife and 3 small kids. I hate to even think what ran through his mind as the earth swallowed him up.


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

I am happy to report the Dan took the e-mail in a positive way. He replied first thing this morning and told me he had an in depth conversation with the foreman. I am glad it was resolved in this manner and OSHA did not have to get involved. 

Thanks to JMIC for picking up the name of the company on the machine. I completely missed it.

Now, does anyone know if OSHA reads these boards,:whistling I think I will edit the pics anyway.


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## mud runner (Nov 6, 2008)

Its important to be safe and follow rules as complacency can set in. I'v been around a lot of cave ins. A good excavator can read the soil conditions read the enviroment and make a decision. The ground always gives you a warning if you know what to look for. The trench in that picture was not terribly deep it was wide and long with places to move to. There should have been a ladder and that truck makes me nervous. That trench was all sand which ussualy caves from the bottom up.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mud runner said:


> A good excavator can read the soil conditions read the enviroment and make a decision.


What "decision"?
- trench box
- benching
- tell the widow of his mad soil reading skills that failed "just this one time".


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

LNG24 said:


> This is where I use to use the plywood, but I know it does not meet the minimum standards.


FWIW, we use marine grade 1" thick plywood for shoring up caved in trenches as we dig the victims out. We place hydraulic rams as we go to keep pressure to the outside walls. 

We can't use a trenchbox, so plywood is a good way to give us an incremental shoring method that's sturdy and safe while we work.

We had a person die in a partial cave-in (only up to his chest) while working on a sewer line repair. The wetness in the hole made the cave-in instant quicksand and suffocated the man very quickly. Shltty to see a person die like that....It took six hours to get the body out and we could see his face the whole time...


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

It is a "Mans World" and us Men make Man Sized Decisions everyday. We also pay Man Sized Prices from time to time. They look like Men to me. 

Having said this...........


Glad that the resolution was positive and that the resolution was swift.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Justbuilding said:


> Genecarp, while I agree with *natural selection somewhat some guys either don't know or are too scared for their jobs to speak up. * To them I say you can't care/ feed your family when you're dead.


That is part of "Natural Selection"! Chutzpah, Balls, Nads, Honor, all part of it. Got the Nads to do something possibly self-dangerous yet they are too small to say "Hey! Wait! I am not going to die FOR YOU today". *Natural Selection*!!!

I am all for it!


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Greg Di said:


> We had a person .......


I feel for you Greg.
My Dad was a fireman...retired in the late 80's as a Battalion Chief...you could always tell when he had a "bad" day [which means someone else had an even worse day ] - even when he said nothing.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

mud runner said:


> Its important to be safe and follow rules as complacency can set in. I'v been around a lot of cave ins. A good excavator can read the soil conditions read the enviroment and make a decision. The ground always gives you a warning if you know what to look for. The trench in that picture was not terribly deep it was wide and long with places to move to. There should have been a ladder and that truck makes me nervous. That trench was all sand which ussualy caves from the bottom up.


man, i don't like picking on people in these forums...you say you've been around a lot of cave ins....WHY???? but PLEASE tell me you don't have any employees....nor put any even detested aquaintances in an excavation such as that. you said "a good excavator". can read the soil conditions?...well, that sure doesn't look like sand to me.....that looks like clay. usually caves from the bottom up? what if it doesn't? the people in the excavation have a place to move to? what if they don't? what if they're bent over lubing/putting a pipe together. what if there's an unknown excavation 2' off to the side that creates a shear point? mud runner....you REALLY REALLY need to rethink your line of thought on this. I'm soon to be 55 years old...my family has been in the underground biz since 47, i've always said i have as many miles walking underground as i do on top.....all of us boys were expected to be on the job helping starting when we were very small. there is NO way....that i will EVER knowingly....make it so i have to go to somebody's home, and tell some little kid and a wife that because of my actions....their dad won't be coming home tonight....think about it


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

My father-in-law is a OSHA safety inspector and has been for 25 years. I bet if I showed him those pics, he would be making a phone call to the nearest OSHA office in that area. If the situation has been resolved, then I suggest that you take down the pics. These pics can be used against the company still. My father-in-law fined a contractor doing a bridge because in the local newspaper, they showed men riding a box culvert while the crane was setting it. He went to the newspaper company and summoned to get all of the pics taken that day. 

He just cited a utility contractor in my area last week. They were doing a sewer line hookup to a house. They were 11' deep and the trench was 3' wide and not benched at all. He is not sure, but he thinks that the guy from the gas company called because he was there all day while they crossed a gas main. It is the 3rd complaint on that company this year and have had many more in the past. They are eventually going to get someone killed. 

The pics are a perfect display of poor supervision. Nobody with that little amount of intelligence should be running a crew, period. I have pushed the limits too as everyone else has, but there is a line between pushing limits and complete idiocy. God bless the families of these employees.

Jason


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

K2 said:


> I'd be scared if i was laying down in that trench but i think those guys know what they are doing. I don't think osha knows anything.


I used to work in trenches for the gas utility, and you can die so easily from dirt. I think you underestimate how much it actually weighs.

Lots of "experienced" people in the company, knew people that had died or nearly died from a cave-in.

I actually watched a video of a guy die in a 3' trench. There were reporters at a hospital interviewing a doctor and guys doing trench work out back. Side of the trench collapsed, the impact of the dirt knocked the guy off his feet and he was buried with his head exposed. Keep in mind the trench was only 3' deep.

He had people instantly digging him out and more than one doctor and nurse attending to him the whole time. He still died before they unburied him because the weight of the dirt wouldn't let him breathe, even though his head was still above ground.

Where I am, we require shoring in any trench deeper than 4', however I've seen and done some pretty stupid stuff in my days.


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## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

This is why I truly appreciate this site. I have done some less than safe moves due to what I considered "desperate times calling for desperate measures". Looking back, it was by the grace of God I didn't get buried. Point being, when you are a "newbie" as I was at the time, you tend to get pressured into things that are put off as "normal". Hearing all of these stories, gives a guy the confidence to politely say "Sure I can do that tap, and it will be an additional $500-$1,000 for the shoring it will require." Then when they say "Yeah, but you are only going to be down there for a few minutes." I can again say "Sure I can do that tap, and it will be an additional $500-$1,000 for the shoring it will require." :clap: A few years ago, I built a set of trench boxes and man it sure makes a guy feel a whole lot better. There is no job in the world worth not coming home from. Lets all play it safe so we can go home and play with our families:thumbsup:


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## Vinny (Jul 21, 2007)

Celtic said:


> What "decision"?
> - trench box
> - benching
> - tell the widow of his mad soil reading skills that failed "just this one time".


Celtic, its always the top dogs decision on what his or her interpretion of what the soil conditions are and what level of precautions are to be taken.

Its called "responsible person" on the job. Not any and every ditch, and any or every soil demands the same level of protection.

Though this particular situation is painfully obvious yet it always comes down to someones decision and by the looks of the picture they all had a case of the dumb a$$.

Dont mis understand my response. It looks like they have no one of responsible inteligence there and I'm not defending any of what we see here, but its always some sort of decision that dictates whats done. And hopefully its an educated decision.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Vinny said:


> Celtic, its always the top dogs decision on what his or her interpretion of what the soil conditions are and what level of precautions are to be taken.
> 
> Its called "responsible person" on the job. Not any and every ditch, and any or every soil demands the same level of protection.


It's called a COMPETENT PERSON...and their status within the company is irrelevant.


OSHA Construction eTool: Guide for Daily Inspection of Trenches and Excavations - Competent Person


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## Jimmy Roger (Nov 15, 2008)

*My Opinion*

The last thing you want, especially your dear parents is an OSHA investigator knocking on their door.
Reprting sometimes is being consider as kind of a bad informing. IMHO sometimes these kinds of informings saves lifes.


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## RPC470 (May 12, 2008)

I know the Foreman on the Job and It is very very unlike him this guy is a good guy and I am at a loss as to why they didnt use boxes. I have Dan's cell phone if you want, I also have Kenny's phone number, (The owner) Both good friends of mine and if you have any other problems with them give me a call and ill take care of it!


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

in fact, here's a link that shows how quick it happens....there's nowhere to run. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBwG8D4d5fU


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

Hey guys. This situation was resolved with a quick e-mail to Dan. Trench Boxes are now being used!


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

LNG24 said:


> Hey guys. This situation was resolved with a quick e-mail to Dan. Trench Boxes are now being used!


Sleep well as I know they now will! Good job LNG!


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

LNG24 said:


> Trench Boxes are now being used!


You do know we need a picture :thumbup:


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