# Block Wall Footings, needed?



## K_Tile (Feb 10, 2006)

First I'm a tile/stone setter by trade.

A restaurant owner has an enclosed dumpster area w/ roof. They asked if I would build a 9ft high x 23ft long block wall partition to divide the space. The wall would have to extended from the concrete pad to the roof rafters to help block animal intrusions. 

I explained to them that the block wall would require concrete footings and all the necessary steps about concrete cutting, excavation, frost line, etc. They proceeded to tell me the "other mason" said he could stack the block directly off the concrete pad. 

Am I wrong?


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## Hmrepairs (Sep 11, 2010)

Where I live, you would be right.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

This wall be should engineered with stamped plans to protect the liability of all involved. Any other way, you playin' with the :devil2:

AHJ would probably agree :thumbsup:


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

A 9' high block wall on slab only?

Tell them good luck with that. It would likely be falling on someone or something within 2 winters.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

I agree.

The wall needs a footing that extends below frost line, as well as reinforcement vertically into the new wall.

Perhaps if you educate the owner of the restaurant on the proper installation......you could land the job. Good luck with it.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

What they said X 2. :thumbsup:


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

In this situation I would absolutely say you need a footing down to the frost line. Along with vertical reinforcement like Tgeb said. A bond beam or two in there would also be a good idea. I would go alittle heavy on the reinforcement. Think about the truck driver that empties that dumpster. The odds of the dumpster bumping into that wall regularly are high.

There are situations where a wall that size on a slab with no reinforcement is perfectly fine and acceptable. That just does not seem to be one of them.


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## K_Tile (Feb 10, 2006)

NJBrickie said:


> There are situations where a wall that size on a slab with no reinforcement is perfectly fine and acceptable.


When are they acceptable? A conditioned space with a thickened slab for interior block walls?

My thoughts were 8"x16" footer @ 3ft frost line with 2 rows #4 rebar. Vertical reinforcement every 4ft tied to footer and bond beams @ 4 and 8 ft. 

Thanks for reassuring my thoughts.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Yes many interior walls are un-reinforced and laid directly on a slab. Sometimes thickened sometimes not. A school is a perfect example. If a wall has little to no lateral load and is not load bearing there is _usually_ no reason for reinforcement. 

I am not an engineer but I would think 2' O.C. for the vertical rods would be more in line. Only because of the wall possibly being bumped by the dumpster regularly. Maybe I am off in assuming that? I would also think that the last course should be a bond beam not at 8'.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Footing and fully reinforced. That wall is going to get slammed by the garbage truck.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

23 ft long, wow, that's a long divider. i've seen lots of dumpster enclosures, this must be a huge one. how thick is the slab? I think there should be a footing but is the wall going to be tied into the roof? 

The best way would be footings as others have stated and definitely vertical rebar every 4-6'. 8" block won't be able to take as many hits or bumps with a garbage truck as 12" would.


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## K_Tile (Feb 10, 2006)

ApgarNJ said:


> I think there should be a footing but is the wall going to be tied into the roof?


Yes, the wall will be tied to the roof rafters. Then the open roof rafters will be enclosed in between the joist space with blocking.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

if they are tied into the roof, that will help. vertical support is still necessary. 

if you do this without footings, you better have them sign a waiver or some really good contract that this is not how you wanted to do this.


if you don't need the work badly, just tell them you can't do it without footings for liability reasons. you can't have someone suing you because the wall fell on their loved one and crushed them. it might not happen but do you want to take that risk with a public accessed area. 

may be drunks or bums in there at night.


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

here in Cali if the wall does not exceed 6' for example a masonry fence you are not required to pull a permit. that being said many of these walls are not grouted. could you build a six footer on the slab and do wood the rest of the way up?


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## Paul's (Oct 14, 2010)

In most of my dealings with owners, they all appear to want the cheapest price no matter the quality. Until something goes wrong. Then YOU should have known better. And you are the one getting sued. Even if you have a signed release.
My advise is to find work somewhere else.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Don't touch a small job of that size without a signed drawing to attach to your contract. - If not a problem could put you under if you do not CYA.

Restaurant owners can be notoriously cheap unless it is needed/required. I smell a situation where a city health inspector or similar person saw a problem or there were neighbors complaints that caused the restaurant owner to look for a cheap and quick fix to get a permit to keep operating. Certainly he was not operating under a moral obligation, but if he was, I would like to share a couple of meals with him.

Since it is a long wall, there is obvioulys almost certain impact from trucks/dumpsters and the drawings should reflect the possibility unless you want to supervise every operation to guanatee the walls you built and accepted the liability for.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

That's actually an interesting point for all builders. What lengths are we supposed to go to in anticipating and providing for abusive incidents as opposed to basic structural integrity?

A couple of days ago, a car ran off the road near here and plowed into a building's block wall. A worker in the building was injured by flying "shrapnel", though the wall didn't actually fall down. Should the builder be held liable for that?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Hey Tin, Good point. However since the OP is asking about a wall with an implied "rough service environment" (Garbage Trucks & Dumpsters) construction details should deal with this issue. In this situation there should be a footing, steel reinforcement, grouted solid & bollards should (at least out here) be installed to provide protection for the wall. I also agree it should be engineered.


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## K_Tile (Feb 10, 2006)

My thought was w/o footings this wall would be riding a roller coaster of seasonal expansion/contraction of the slab. Then add the fact that it will be tied to the rafters which would also cause more problems.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

yeah, no way should it be done without it. major frost could heave the slab up a bit and lift the roof framing up. walk away if they insist in no footings.


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