# Cultured stone..dry stack



## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

So our mason is bucking real hard about installing stack stone on our project. Says it will pop off the wall due to no mortar between the joints and excess moisture getting behind the stone and freezing. We have a couple homes with dry stack on them and never had that problem. Asked our supplier and he said only one one issue of that happening and it wasn't a good install to begin with. Anyone else think this guys gone loony? I personally think he just doesn't like to install dry stack for some reason.


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## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

he is a typical mason. If it were real stone it would pop. even though this is "dry stack" its still semi sealed on the back side of the stone from the blow out when setting stone. Is it possible that it can blow off in freezing temps yes it could. but its unlikely.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

overanalyze said:


> I personally think he just doesn't like to install dry stack for some reason.



I think you nailed it right there...find a willing mason.:thumbsup:


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I did 1100sqft of drystack cultured stone 5 years ago. It starts 8" above grade. A few years ago we had near record snowfall here, something like 10'. This year we've had very little but lots of freeze thaw. I saw the homeowner recently to ask if I could go take some pics. He said sure, still looks great. I know 5 years isn't so much, but the product has seen some weather in that time.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

It wont pop.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Seems so far the general consensus is he full of it. I have installed one small job of dry stack myself about 7 1/2 years ago and not one issue! Just boggles my mind why he hates it so much.


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

Ask him.....
"Why would all the manufactures of cultures stone offer dry stack patterns if you couldn't put it on that way?"


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

We did. He said that it wasn't really meant to be installed in our Ohio climate...WTF! Thing is he has been our mason for a while and does good work. It may be time to play hardball. Plenty of other good masons that will be glad to install it.


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## HgWhiz (Mar 13, 2009)

We anchor metal mesh to the wall. Then we plastered a coat of mortar over the surface of the mesh. After the mortar cured we stuck them on. When you anchor the mesh, you better make certain that there are no bubbles, if there are be prepared for pieces to pop off as your laying them. I recall being frustrated with my boss, because we weren't allowed to stand pieces up vertically. I agree with that principle so long as it is natural stone, but as for cultered stone it is not a good idea. The cultered stone that we used was design to stand them up. We had to make numerous cuts to get all the pieces to fit. I had a feeling that standing certain pieces up would have eliminated the need for cuts. My suspicions were confirmed after observing other buildings that had the same cultered stone. They had pieces standing up and there were no cuts. Another suggestion I have for you is that you consider starting at the top and work your way down to keep it clean. If start at the bottom and go up, you risk getting them dirty.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

I also think he just doesn't want to dry stack it. I don't really enjoy it either, it takes out the fudge factor and requires a little trimming from time to time.

If he installs it right though the entire wall should be sealed, each rock will have a tiny little ribbon of mud squeeze out the bottom and it should be raked out at the end of the day.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Sounds like he does not wanna eff around lining up tight joints...just wait for steady warm weather in + over night and tell him to go at it.Experienced mason will have no problems with it.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> Sounds like he does not wanna eff around lining up tight joints...just wait for steady warm weather in + over night and tell him to go at it.Experienced mason will have no problems with it.


I could challenge the wording of experienced mason in the same sentence of cultured stone. 

The guys who taught me thought used to say the same thing, it could be an old school thing, as it does go against "mason" logic.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

JBM said:


> I could challenge the wording of experienced mason in the same sentence of cultured stone.
> 
> The guys who taught me thought used to say the same thing, it could be an old school thing, as it does go against "mason" logic.


The guy that taught you thought cultured stone pops off?

Or am i misunderstanding smth?


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

JBM said:


> I could challenge the wording of experienced mason in the same sentence of cultured stone.
> 
> The guys who taught me thought used to say the same thing, it could be an old school thing, as it does go against "mason" logic.


You gotta give the people what they want.:thumbup:

If we didn't take the task on siding companies or...(shudders)...landscapers might attempt it. Imagine that trainwreck.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

sitdwnandhngon said:


> You gotta give the people what they want.:thumbup:
> 
> If we didn't take the task on siding companies or...(shudders)...landscapers might attempt it. Imagine that trainwreck.


Yea thats pretty much where I stand...a lot of guys around here do that...siding companies,gas fireplace distributors etc...it is a wreck. Big time.

Plus its hard to say no to money when something is in fashion.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

I know in our area a local mason used to basically own the paver industry, landscapers didn't touch it.

Now it's considered a landscapers job (at least around here) to install pavers, a big swing in 30 years.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

sitdwnandhngon said:


> I know in our area a local mason used to basically own the paver industry, landscapers didn't touch it.
> 
> Now it's considered a landscapers job (at least around here) to install pavers, a big swing in 30 years.


I still do paving stone. also everything else that is somehow considered hardscaping(retaining walls etc).

I think its all masonry...just sometimes they can offer better prices than we can...average paving installer will work for 14/hour...I wont...thats difference right there.


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## Stone (Mar 23, 2009)

> We did. He said that it wasn't really meant to be installed in our Ohio climate...WTF! Thing is he has been our mason for a while and does good work. It may be time to play hardball. Plenty of other good masons that will be glad to install it.


Hi _Overanylyze_, I am in the same area as you and properly installed drystack is just fine in this climate. Would this mason's initials be D.B.?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Stone said:


> We did. He said that it wasn't really meant to be installed in our Ohio climate...WTF! Thing is he has been our mason for a while and does good work. It may be time to play hardball. Plenty of other good masons that will be glad to install it.
> 
> __________________
> 
> Hi Overanylyze, I am in the same area as you and properly installed drystack is just fine in this climate. Would this mason's initials be D.B.?


And the Ohio take over continues. :thumbsup:


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Stone said:


> We did. He said that it wasn't really meant to be installed in our Ohio climate...WTF! Thing is he has been our mason for a while and does good work. It may be time to play hardball. Plenty of other good masons that will be glad to install it.
> 
> __________________
> 
> Hi Overanylyze, I am in the same area as you and properly installed drystack is just fine in this climate. Would this mason's initials be D.B.?


No..pm me if you want more details.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Our mason got back with us and upped his price by a very large amount. Now I know he doesn't want the work. Have other qualified people we are talking to. Hopefully thus gets resolved soon.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Drystack is much slower to install. I would guess by maybe 1/3


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Drystack is much slower to install. I would guess by maybe 1/3


Yeah it is, we got asked to do the ugliest pattern in the world last year dry stacked, I burnt up one grinder and about 5 blades in two weeks I was doing so much trimming.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> The guy that taught you thought cultured stone pops off?
> 
> Or am i misunderstanding smth?


Back when it hit the market the guys would go on about how the stuff will crack and pop off. I remember them laughing about no mortar joints too.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Dry Stack is really slow...regardless how hard I try 65-75 sq is what i can push with help a day.

I dont rake out joints though..Generally I just rake the reg mortar out and finish with slight tinter grout...it still gives effects of raked joints,but I am leary about removing all the grout.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

I think we have it ironed out. Monday should be able to finalize all the particulars. Thanks for all the input guy!


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## dzank (Apr 3, 2011)

I always charge more if customer chooses dry stack. Esp if its a mix ledge and field which seems to be pretty popular. I don't see how anyone could call himself a mason and not want a lickemstickem job even if it is something a little more difficult. I think when done right (nice neat cuts where you dont see any bare concrete from the cuts)the dry stack looks awesome.

Good luck with your job and new sub...:thumbsup:


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

I am ok paying more if it's spelled out that different styles of stone may cost more. But to just try and change your number and add almost 50% to the cost because you don't like the stone style and then try and pass some bs excuse that it will pop off in our climate is what did it for me. It's fine. We have other qualified people who want our business. Just added some undo stress the lat couple if days! Thank goodness it's Friday and only have office work tomorrow. Cracking open another cold one!


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

overanalyze said:


> I am ok paying more if it's spelled out that different styles of stone may cost more. But to just try and change your number and add almost 50% to the cost because you don't like the stone style and then try and pass some bs excuse that it will pop off in our climate is what did it for me. It's fine. We have other qualified people who want our business. Just added some undo stress the lat couple if days! Thank goodness it's Friday and only have office work tomorrow. Cracking open another cold one!


sounds like scammer. Get better sub...My rates are negotiated beforehand and change of orders come in only if the work has changed or I missed smth due to abscence of x-ray vision.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Exactly. Had another sub miss something this week as well. Manned up and said he missed it and was his mistake to eat! We will give him some help anyway just cause he manned up..and will push more work his way when we can!


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Was the price based on previous mortared work? If so I don't really blame him. It's the same product but it's installed differently. It is way more time consuming. If he/she is unfamiliar with it it warrants a decent jump in price. I don't blame you for finding someone else but mortared work and drylaid are different animal


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Was the price based on previous mortared work? If so I don't really blame him. It's the same product but it's installed differently. It is way more time consuming. If he/she is unfamiliar with it it warrants a decent jump in price.


Yea but wouldn't you quote same rate for either or?

My rate doesnt change unless I get specifically asked to change my rate because its wet-laid split face for example.

Only thing cheaper to install is pro-fit,but overall I got same basic rate for cultured stone.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

No way. First question I ask when I get a call about cultured stone is what style and drylaid or joints. I don't have a standard price. I don't give prices over the phone either. I need to at least see drawings better yet the site. How big are the walls? How many windows and doors? etc... My price ranges by as much as 1/3


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> No way. First question I ask when I get a call about cultured stone is what style and drylaid or joints. I don't have a standard price. I don't give prices over the phone either. I need to at least see drawings better yet the site. How big are the walls? How many windows and doors? etc... My price ranges by as much as 1/3


I dont know Dom,to me its all same crap.

Whether you rake and slight refil on dry stack,line it up etc or you wet stack and tint the joints make sure you dont drop on stone,tool,brush...so same time really..


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> Dry Stack is really slow...regardless how hard I try 65-75 sq is what i can push with help a day.


Doesn't sound like it. Don't you do double that regularly


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> Doesn't sound like it. Don't you do double that regularly


yea well two different types of dry-stack too though.

Dry stack real tight or dry stack like this:





If like on picture 150-200 a day is no big deal...assuming scratch is already up.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Gabe, 
You are correct, that is not dry stack, or even close. 

Wish I had a pic hand of a real dry stack.

Sounds like the guy came to his senses and adjusted the price accordingly. :thumbsup:


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

dakzaag said:


> Gabe,
> You are correct, that is not dry stack, or even close.
> 
> Wish I had a pic hand of a real dry stack.
> ...


I wouldn't say he came to his senses. The real problem is that he did not want to install it cause in his mind he doesn't like that there is no mortar between the joints (his opinion but has nothing to back it). So he adjusted his price not because of a legitimate change (which a change from stone a to stone b would be), but because he was determined that he didn't want to install so he jacked up his number. 

Also you are right, that's not real dry stack...you shouldn't see much if any mortar on real dry stack.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Here's the dry stack selection.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Well above picture was my work...I did two samples for customer...one like that and one real tight...thats the one the liked so off I went with 150-200 a day.


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