# Kids in schools not learning Shop skills



## sylobeg (Jul 9, 2014)

Hey guys and gals
I wanted to vent about the ongoing tradition of cutting "shop" classes in schools.
We are ALL responsible for this because we allow it to happen.

Let me explain:
I am a veteran shop teacher and have been witnessing the slashing of schools budgets which gives them the excuse of cutting shop.

They refuse to cut band or art

Count on your hands, how many professional musicians do you know??

Now, How many professional artists do you know??

OK............. Here we go: 
How many Carpenters, electricians, plumbers, welders, other contractors do you know?? Even engineers, yes

It makes me sick that our kids have to have 2 years of Algebra and 2 years of foreign language, when half of these kids will never use it, and they ALL need to know how to work with their hands and MEASURE for crying out loud.

We are all responsible because we let it happen. The good side is the fact that it allows those of us who are good at this stuff to charge more because no one else can do it.

The bad side is there are many people unable to make a living because they were never taught or encouraged to go into the TRADES!!!!!!!

Talk to your local school boards, GET SHOP BACK IN SCHOOLS. 

And I'm not talking about Tech ed either!!!!!
Thanks for letting me vent

Signed,
Frustrated shop teacher, father, citizen of these great United States


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## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

Thank you for saying how many feel. There is a cultural shift towards respecting the trades, but it's not happening fast enough.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Hey ! Don't you know,everyone is supposed to go to college and become a computer guru and make millions of dollars !:laughing:


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## Dave in Pa (Oct 10, 2009)

I AGREE! My school district, that I went to, my wife, and both of my grown (24&21) year old boys went to, ya, got me going here!!! They don't give a rats a## about anything BUT football/baseball/computers/etc.. They are known for parents to MOVE into the area, JUST so they can and say, that their kids went to NA! 

My older son, had some issues in learning way back, and we had to take LEGAL issues, out of our pocket, to try to pay for and get him help as needed! 

The district did not want to fund the learning support that he needed! BUT the "SAINTED" ones get the limo rides to their event!! The other issue with our district is INCOME! We are approx. 20 miles north of Pittsburgh, PA. The incomes here range for as a family of ? between $25k to $2 million/per year! Dah, do ya see the way things are going!! 

Sorry to stay here, but I do think in the same ball-park!

Thanks, dave


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## sylobeg (Jul 9, 2014)

Yes, Dave Its' sad.
Proves you can be sad and mad at the same time hehe
I would even argue that Doctors and dentists need eye-hand coordination.

Talk to your local school boards )))


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## Dave in Pa (Oct 10, 2009)

sylobeg said:


> Yes, Dave Its' sad.
> Proves you can be sad and mad at the same time hehe
> I would even argue that Doctors and dentists need eye-hand coordination.
> 
> Talk to your local school boards )))


I agree! BUT the most, and MOST important thing in today's world, that is lacking? COMMON SENSE!!!! It just is not there any more!!!


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## sylobeg (Jul 9, 2014)

Dave in Pa said:


> I agree! BUT the most, and MOST important thing in today's world, that is lacking? COMMON SENSE!!!! It just is not there any more!!!


You got that right!!!!


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Oh, we still have voc school in my home town of Clarkston. Nowadays, it's mostly referred to as "The holding pen", but they also have formal names like Oakland Technical Center, Renaissance School, etc. But in any case, it's a way to keep the head count up (keep those dollars rolling in please) but also hold them away from the "General population" of regular high school.

OTOH, I'm old enough that when I talk to guys from my age group, we still have fond memories of the voc teachers and what we learned there.

When we get done experimenting with every possible non-working educational system, then and only then will we get back to the notion of vocational education as "worthy.

BTW, ABC and CAM have very strong trades education programs. They are definitely filling some of the void.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

When I was in Jr. High, we had a choice between Home Economics and Shop for our first 8th grade elective. Obviously the girls all took Home Ec and the boys "mostly" took shop.

I never in a million years would have considered going into the trades if it had not been for this class. (My entire family were Professors and Educators and the white collar thing only and people in the trades were considered of a lower "caste")

I have to admit I was terrified of the band saw and I still am.:laughing:

Closing down this glimpse of an area where kids can prosper is a mistake.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

rselectric1 said:


> I have to admit I was terrified of the band saw and I still am.:laughing:
> 
> .





For me it was and still is is the radial arm saw.:laughing:


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Mike Rowe hears you loud and clear.

So do most of the rest of us.

As usual, the people we elect (or don't bother to) don't hear anything.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

I'd say that mathematics/algebra are still very valuable in the trades, foreign language...looks like it will be...ahhg I don't want to go there.

Math and science are needed in the trades, a good command of the English language is paramount as well.

A well rounded education is better than an education system that guides toward conformity.

The stuff they "don't" teach now is appalling.


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## sylobeg (Jul 9, 2014)

tgeb said:


> I'd say that mathematics/algebra are still very valuable in the trades, foreign language...looks like it will be...ahhg I don't want to go there.
> 
> Math and science are needed in the trades, a good command of the English language is paramount as well.
> :


Math is needed, of course. Not 4 years of it, including Algebra 2. English is needed? Speak decently, but shakespear instead of Woods or Welding? Sorry, have to disagree.

We are NOT behind other countries. They don't test every student, only the "selected" ones. We are required to test ALL kids, even the special ed kids.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

> We are NOT behind other countries. They don't test every student, only the "selected" ones. We are required to test ALL kids, even the special ed kids.


I'm gonna have to see proof of that claim.


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## rosethornva (Aug 15, 2010)

Robie said:


> Mike Rowe hears you loud and clear.
> 
> So do most of the rest of us.
> 
> As usual, the people we elect (or don't bother to) don't hear anything.


Isn't that the *&#^ truth? 

Our schools are a house on fire. They're just burning down before our eyes and IMHO, discipline is a huge issue.

In 1974, I was the first girl to take auto shop in Portsmouth schools, and it was a big deal. If I was queen of the world, I would make EVERY STUDENT IN AMERICA take some kind of shop class. 

Discipline was the very first lesson and we were told if we were caught playing around with the machines it was instant suspension.

BTW, I got straight A's in that class! :clap:

LOVED IT. 

I'm sorry (but not surprised) to hear that public schools don't see the value of shop classes.

Our public schools are - with precious few exceptions - run by pencil pushing idiots, and the teachers are "teaching to the tests" instead of preparing children for life.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

sylobeg said:


> They refuse to cut band or art


This is primarily because there are parents out there who are advocating the same thing you are when it comes to the trades. The school systems wanted to cut out the arts.. which they have done in some areas but they are just as important as anything else. Those who have appreciation for the arts made their thoughts well known.

I think that the toughest task for any state board of education is to determine what chidren should be learning today so that they can be prepared for the world in 15 years as they enter the work force. 

I think that we (they) dropped the ball when the industrial age started to taper off and we took for granted that any schmuck with a hammer and a hand full of nails could assemble two pieces of wood together. Nowadays that's not so simple for most people.


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## rosethornva (Aug 15, 2010)

rselectric1 said:


> When I was in Jr. High, we had a choice between Home Economics and Shop for our first 8th grade elective. Obviously the girls all took Home Ec and the boys "mostly" took shop.


*Ahem*! 

I feel strongly that EVERYONE should take shop - male and female alike. In my case, "auto shop" taught me about mechanical principles, and I learned how things work and how things are made, and that life lesson was invaluable.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Also, I consider that we raised a generation of people who believed that the Internet would replace every business, solve every problem, and supply anything that you ever needed. 

Many years ago a guy from the Millennial generation was boasting about how he was going to pursue a career on the Internet because that's the only kind of business that will exist in the 21st century.

So I asked him, "What about the shipping companies that bring you the stuff that you order online? How do you think that gets to your door?" Blank stare. Then I said, "They surely can't bring something to your door while sitting behind a computer. Also, what about the vehicles that transport your shipments? The trucks, and vans that require manufacturing, maintenance, repairs, etc. They can't make that possible by just sitting behind a computer screen. " Blank stare again. Then he said, "Well I just know that the internet is going to take over everything. You'll see."

And this my friends is the mentality that allows the trades to be eliminated from our schools.


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

tedanderson said:


> This is primarily because there are parents out there who are advocating the same thing you are when it comes to the trades. The school systems wanted to cut out the arts.. which they have done in some areas but they are just as important as anything else. Those who have appreciation for the arts made their thoughts well known.
> 
> I think that the toughest task for any state board of education is to determine what chidren should be learning today so that they can be prepared for the world in 15 years as they enter the work force.
> 
> I think that we (they) dropped the ball when the industrial age started to taper off and we took for granted that any schmuck with a hammer and a hand full of nails could assemble two pieces of wood together. Nowadays that's not so simple for most people.



Ted--- thanks for pointing that out.

while as a tradesman I sympathies with the OP's general feeling--- I think he is off base about a number of things.

Goroing up--- I knew several professional musicians--- and even more professional artists. It depends on what circles you move in.

sure--- in the trades we all know lots of carpenters, plumbers etc.---- it's our business.
but the average person--- THEY don't know a lot of plumbers electricians etc.

one of the most successful graduates from my HS class (1980)--- got to his position through the arts---- employs about 30 people now in his marketing firm----primarily through the arts--- I could go on and on

I am all for the trades---- but I don't see cutting out band and art and better English classes and higher level math----in favor of shop classes----as producing competently educated kids for the 21st century.

Maybe I am crazy---- but the absolutely BEST ( about 6 superb ones---- 2 with me currently) employees I have had over the years have come from a strong liberal arts back ground---- they are able to meet, converse with and communicate with affluent customers, explain what we are doing and up-sell as the occasion warrants . Almost all of their trade skills have come from on the job----and in fact an arts background has been helpful with that.

We expect to be hiring a new apprentice in the spring of 2015----and we won't be looking for that person in the ranks of shop class graduates---- sad to say. That path has lead no-where for us over the years.

I can teach them a trade---- what I don't have time to teach them--- is that well rounded background they actually need-----and I don't have the energy to over come the faulty upbringing I have found in the few " shop class kids" we have tried in the past.

your experience may be different.

Stephen


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

tedanderson said:


> . They can't make that possible by just sitting behind a computer screen. "


one day my friend..one day:sad:


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## Quad Racer (Jun 2, 2014)

It is a bummer. However, my high school had a great "shop" experience. We had a small engine shop, metal shop and wood shop. I believe every student was required to take one of the three. I took all three and avoided a foreign language class.

We have an excellent trade school district here that I went to and graduated from. The Great Oaks. You can attend as a high school student or as an adult. They have an excellent adult system there too. The problem is that if a kid doesn't get exposed to it first in wood shop at a regular high school they would likely never get to the trade school.

Of course being a student meant you were a reject or loser. I wanted to sign up for auto body and the class was booked. So I signed up for Industrial facilities management. The name makes no sense to me because we didn't learn a thing about managing an Industrial facility. We learned enough to not kill ourselves and about lots of different things. A little electric, framing, plumbing, drywall etc. In regular high school I was a D student and got into more trouble than any kid I knew. Got into trade school and had a 3.5-4.0 all eight semesters I was there. A complete 180. 
The way I see it is the trades saved me from a life of ruin. 

I'm not sure about the local high school shop experiences now but the Great oaks are still rocking.


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## Hardly Working (Apr 7, 2005)

I was lucky enough to take wood and metal shop in Junior and High school. My junior year of high school I had a 3 metal shop classes had all my other classes covered. My senior year when I went into my shop class my instructor told me he enrolled me into the Comm.Coll.welding program. To learn something. And I did. Learned to be a pipefitter do fab and layout weld MIG TIG GMAW all the fun stuff. Did high tolerance sheetmetal for aerospace. Now I play with wood :thumbup:. Where from SHOP CLASS and their teachers Mr. Crees (Jr. Metal) Mr. Meritt (Jr. Wood) Mr. Steele (HS Metal) and Roger Squirrel (Welding).


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## sylobeg (Jul 9, 2014)

rosethornva said:


> I'm sorry (but not surprised) to hear that public schools don't see the value of shop classes.
> 
> Our public schools are - with precious few exceptions - run by pencil pushing idiots, and the teachers are "teaching to the tests" instead of preparing children for life.


All other arguments aside, you hit the nail on the head, pun intended.

As a veteran Industrial Arts teacher of over 24 years, 99% of the people I talk to agree. The only ones who don't agree happen to be administrators. Hmmmmmmm


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

I'm still young enough to remember high school (6 years ago) and what courses kids were pushed towards. Everything was computer technology and prep for university. I had to discover my love for carpentry and automotive on my own. 

Moving into Edmonton has been a different story though. Being that this is oil country and there is a shortage of skilled trades the province is paying for college level training for ANY skilled trade before the kids even leave high school. They can be employed through the program and go to technical training at the college ($1000 program fee paid for), get their first year training AND claim a $1000 grant to spend on tools/equipment. The government is trying to get kids interested in the trades now because they see the shortage coming our way. They're talking about offering more incentives than is currently in place too. 

Big contrast than from where I grew up.


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## Mikekow80 (Feb 25, 2011)

What amazes me is how little many young people know. Not even thinking about professions, just general simple life skills. I feel like once a week I have to help someone with such simple skills that a shop class, auto class, home class would solve. My wive's 18 year old cousin was visiting and didn't know how to cook the simplest things. How many younger drivers have never changed a tire? I never actually took a shop class, but I did high school theater for 4 years. Full on wood shop, metal shop, and electrical that we worked on for hours a day, year around. I even learned how to sew, not well, but I can! Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs is a HUGE supporter of the trades. He has a charity to help young people be able to attend trade schools and such. Hopefully spokes men like him will help educate people on the need for all the programs.


Being a new father I pray that schools have programs around in 14 years when he can take advantage of them. I also hope I'm a good enough father to have him trained up long before then. He will also know how to cook! I'm not cooking my 18 year old grilled cheese!!


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## 66 Shelby (Jan 11, 2009)

It's saddens me to see the shop classes get de-funded. When I was in Jr High we had metal and wood shop, plus a class called something like 'Industrial Arts' where you did a little of both to create 'Art'. In my HS we had metal shop (that included welding), wood shop (where we finally got to use a table saw), and auto shop (that included a full-on body shop) classes. Nowadays, in my area, metal shop is basically non-existent, wood shop is guys gluing popsicle sticks together, and auto shop mainly deals with diagnostics (no engine or tranny rebuilds).

Even my wife took auto shop (she can change her own oil :laughing and I took Home Econ (that's where the girls were, but I think my love of cooking came from that). Things sure have changed from the late 70's/early 80's


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I just left an auction for a defunct industrial arts program on the south side of Lansing Michigan. 

Bought 7 pieces of industrial machinery for less then a new Kapex costs. 

Takes lots of money to run those programs.


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## rosethornva (Aug 15, 2010)

sylobeg said:


> All other arguments aside, you hit the nail on the head, pun intended.
> 
> As a veteran Industrial Arts teacher of over 24 years, 99% of the people I talk to agree. The only ones who don't agree happen to be administrators. Hmmmmmmm


I had several family members who *were* teachers at the public school level. They got disgusted with the bureaucracy and the insanity of the "decision makers" and changed to other careers.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

rosethornva said:


> I had several family members who *were* teachers at the public school level. They got disgusted with the bureaucracy and the insanity of the "decision makers" and changed to other careers.


Very few personalities fit the public school teacher mold. IMO, that's a real shame. The best teachers in private schools wouldn't fit in to a public school system.


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## Quad Racer (Jun 2, 2014)

Thats very true. It takes a special person to teach kids these days. Too many come to school un prepared to learn. I see it everyday when I drop off my kids. ****ty parents.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Not a popular opinion, but, the kids should have a working knowledge of Spanish also.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

flashheatingand said:


> Not a popular opinion, but, the kids should have a working knowledge of Spanish also.


The superintendent of schools here in Oxford would disagree with you. For a couple of years he was very intent on instituting mandatory Chinese at the grade school level.

Haven't heard that mentioned lately. Might have been the burning effigies that changed his mind.


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## Quad Racer (Jun 2, 2014)

F talking in Spanish.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

flashheatingand said:


> Not a popular opinion, but, the kids should have a working knowledge of Spanish also.


I'd say that somewhat depends on locale. But I do wholeheartedly believe that everyone should learn a second language. It helps tremendously with understanding your own.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Given everything that has been said up to this point leads to a question that I've always asked... what do the "winners" in the educational system actually win?

Or to ask this another way, if you send your kid off to high school or college and you had to complete the following sentence; "Get good grades and you will get ___________." what exactly can they expect in exchange for their achievements?

Let's say that your kid graduates with the highest GPA numbers, takes the AP/college credit courses, becomes valedictorian, gets national recognition for academic achievements, etc. and they cross all the T's, dot the I's, what do they get for their job well done? 

What can they become other than a college professor?

My ex-girlfriend was that way. She was a straight-a student but she couldn't tell you much about what she learned. She took 7 years worth of Spanish from high school through college but she can't travel to Mexico and ask a cab driver for directions to the airport. She can conjugate all of the verbs, distinguish masculine and feminine associations, differentiate pronouns, etc. but she wouldn't be able to tell you what a lost tourist is asking for. :blink:


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## dielectricunion (Feb 27, 2013)

tedanderson said:


> Given everything that has been said up to this point leads to a question that I've always asked... what do the "winners" in the educational system actually win? Or to ask this another way, if you send your kid off to high school or college and you had to complete the following sentence; "Get good grades and you will get ___________." what exactly can they expect in exchange for their achievements? Let's say that your kid graduates with the highest GPA numbers, takes the AP/college credit courses, becomes valedictorian, gets national recognition for academic achievements, etc. and they cross all the T's, dot the I's, what do they get for their job well done? What can they become other than a college professor? My ex-girlfriend was that way. She was a straight-a student but she couldn't tell you much about what she learned. She took 7 years worth of Spanish from high school through college but she can't travel to Mexico and ask a cab driver for directions to the airport. She can conjugate all of the verbs, distinguish masculine and feminine associations, differentiate pronouns, etc. but she wouldn't be able to tell you what a lost tourist is asking for. :blink:


Definitely not enough immersion in high school language classes. I took at least 4 years of Spanish and I can't communicate in Spanish. Based on the spelling and grammar skills of many native English speakers, they aren't teaching that very aggressively either!


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

tedanderson said:


> Or to ask this another way, if you send your kid off to high school or college and you had to complete the following sentence; "Get good grades and you will get  laid ."
> 
> .
> .
> ...


She got laid, didn't she?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

You do realize that public schools are no longer for education but for indoctrination, right?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

education, reeducation - I thought it was all about the retirement plan....


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

sylobeg said:


> Hey guys and gals
> I wanted to vent about the ongoing tradition of cutting "shop" classes in schools.
> We are ALL responsible for this because we allow it to happen.
> 
> ...



I graduated from Bergen Tech in 86 ..a Vo/Tech school in NJ.

I went byu there recently..they added wings to the school..the school no longer taught any trades.it used to be carpentry, AC/refrig./Stationary Engineering, Plumbing /Tin shop etc..

now its computers..programming/technical..as well some other tech related courses..

it makes me wonder if I should be making more money than I am.

sine when did the old derelict stigma of Vo/Techs get jaded with silicone Valley tech geeks?


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