# fasteners for brick ties into structural steel studs.



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

As the title says, what kind of fasteners has anyone used to anchor brick ties into structural steel studs. I'm off to the hardware store soon to see what they have but I thought I'd ask here.

Not looking for anything that requires a special tool or anything too expensive since I doubt I'll run into anything like this again for quite a while. something cheap, fast and easy

Thanks


----------



## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Mostly a self tapping screws with a epdm washer.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/477997946/hex_head_self_tapping_screws_with.html


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

NJ Brickie said:


> Mostly a self tapping screws with a epdm washer.
> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/477997946/hex_head_self_tapping_screws_with.html


Shoot why didn't I think of that? Steel roofing screws. I was trying to give away a box I bought for when I was going roof my shed but went with asphalt instead. I'll have to go and see if the screw will fit through the hole in the brick tie.

Thanks NJ, twice you've saved my butt.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Yup, those will work great. Hopefully I can return the favour sometime NJ but something tells me you've got just about everything covered.


----------



## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

No problem. That is what this forum is mainly about. Exchange of information here is great. My knowledge is mostly commercial, especially institutional work. I have built a few fireplaces years ago but today I would have to open some of my old masonry text books to build one again. Or just come here for info. Residential is not my thing.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Bah, residential is the same. Just way less space. This job has a wall that's 20' long and 25' tall with no openings. I haven't seen anything like it in years. I rarely get 10o sqft without a window or door.


----------



## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

Would self tapping lath screws be sufficient?


----------



## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

Also why use a screw with the rubber washer? Is there a reason?


----------



## rustyjames (Aug 28, 2008)

Rich D. said:


> Also why use a screw with the rubber washer? Is there a reason?


I've never seen rubber washers used, just washer headed self-drillers.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

What are lath screws? I think NJbrickie suggested those because they're readily available, cheap and fast. I don't think the rubber washer is important, but any hardware store carries them.


----------



## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

The biggest problem with wrinkled tin studs is that any screws strip off the protection and offer a great place for corrosion to occur.

Brick ties can carry the moisture in and cause long term problems especially if it is a loose specification.

Why worry about pennies on screws when there can be bigger liabilities?

If it is according to specs, leave the liability to the designer and attorneys in a few years and cross your fingers.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

concretemasonry said:


> The biggest problem with wrinkled tin studs is that any screws strip off the protection and offer a great place for corrosion to occur.
> 
> Brick ties can carry the moisture in and cause long term problems especially if it is a loose specification.
> 
> ...


Ok so what's the solution. I need to put in brick ties. What else can I fasten too, not denseclad? will the rubber washers help to keep moisture out? Maybe that's where you're going with it.


----------



## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

http://www.masoncontractors.org/2011/10/10/adjustable-anchor-system/Good points as usual Dick, though I have had jobs spec'd with these







Image A, with rubber washers on the screws.....Maybe the rubber washers are there to keep moisture from migrating to the hole.........something to think about...... That doesn't seem to work, try http://www.masonpro.com/brickveneercommercial.htm


----------



## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

That's it. Type III or Type III seismic. Regular wall ties are not generally accepted for brick veneer/steel studs as there have been failures with high wind loads. Once you use these, you'll be sold.


----------



## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

dom-mas- Are you saying that you are screwing on corrugated wall ties? As far as I know wall ties are not an acceptable wall reinforcement for cavity walls in many places. But they are often still used, especially in residential. Dw-10(also know as type3) anchors and and sure tie anchors are what we mainly use for steel stud applications. Wood studs also, but wood has all but been eliminated in commercial work.

The rubber gaskets on the screws are often spec'ed for jobs, My guess would be most jobs, so that is what we buy. The reason the the gasket would be a seal around a penetration you are making I would think. Also it seems that the rubber helps prevent over tightening the screws and stripping out the connection at the stud.

Type3
http://wirebond.com/?page_id=1545

sure tie
http://wirebond.com/?page_id=1473


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Type III over Denseglas, Type II over wood sheathing. The washers are used for application over membrane waterproofing normally.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Huh, I remember using ties like those on commercial buildings when I was a labourer, but they were installed before we ever showed up. 

This job is basically residential. It's a Triplex and built by commercial guys (don't know why, maybe because it's multi dwelling). The 2 main sidewalls are steel stud with Denseglas but the front, back and any jog in walls are wood with OSB sheathing.

As far as I'm cocerned it's not real different than any other residential job except they have a control joint on one of the wood framed walls at 15' out of 18'. From being a labourer on the commercial jobs I thought they were only every 20' at a post. Whatever. 

Yes I'm using corrugated brick ties I know they're still acceptable around here unless engineer/architect specs something else. And I think I will use those steel roofing screws, nothing is speced and i have a box of them sitting around.

I have lots more to learn/remember about commercial work.


----------



## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> What are lath screws? I think NJbrickie suggested those because they're readily available, cheap and fast. I don't think the rubber washer is important, but any hardware store carries them.


There just a self tapper with a large, washer type head...


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Oh,


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

the rubber washer will also help keep the tie in position as you tighten the screw


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Hope so. I once put stone on an ICF and had to use screws to go into the furring strips. Every now and again the tie would take off with the screw with me holding it and chew the snots out of my finger tips. Got to be that I'd be anticipating the pain with each tie.


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

you just tighten them enough so that the washer bulges a little more than the diameter of the flange


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I'll install them about the same as if I were doing a steel roof. Helped with a few when I was a kid.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Corrugated ties are fine if local code allows them, 22 gauge minimum, though. They do need to be placed accurately. The bend should be a hard 90 degrees, and the leg embedded in the mortar needs to be straight and perpendicular to the plane of the wall or they are liable to fail.

Edit- Just remember that the primary purpose of wall ties is to keep the veneer from moving TOWARDS the sheathing, not away from it.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

i remember reading that somewhere else here. I was taught by one of my teachers who is an engineer who specializes in masonry (mostly restoration but all masonry) that in the event of an earthquake, ties keep the units attached to the wall long enough so that bricks aren't raining down on you as you flee from the building.

And not to be an ass but I've installed many thousands of brick ties. I do know how. You forgot to tell me that the fastener needs to be within 1/4" of the bend (rarely seen in practise)


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Seismic is a little bit different than normal, and that is why they have different anchoring systems. I didn't mention the 1/4" because it does not materially affect the operation of the tie if everything else is done correctly (for non-seismic applications).


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Maybe, but all ties installed in Ontario regardless of Zone are supposed to be fastened within 1/4" of the bend. Still makes me think it`s for earthquake brick showers and maybe incidetally for wind pushing the bricks in. I think the mortar slopping out the back of the bricks will stop that pretty quick.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I would be surprised if corrugated ties were allowed in seismic zones, period. I have never worked in a seismic zone, only hurricane rated areas, FYI.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Corrugated ties are about the only thing I've used unless i'm working on composite walls. Seismic Zone 4. Moderate. If/when we get one there's a chance it will be good. Corrugated ties are all anyone in residential ever uses. Definitely up to code. every 16"x24". I know when i tear down old work that I can take it down in 2' sections at which time i have to remove the tie course then another 8 courses altogether.


----------



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The concern from my reading, in seismic, is pull out strength, since the primary purpose of the ties for that application IS to retain the veneer. There are very few systems that I know of that are tested for this, and corrugated ties would not seem to be a good option for urban or multistory usage, residential or not. All of the seismic systems I am familiar with also have integrated horizontal reinforcement.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

. Corrugated ties are supposed to be used only with veneer over wooden studs; unit metal ties including regular ties and adjustable ties are used with two-wythe construction for cavity walls; and metal ladder-type ties are to be used for multiwythe composite action walls. Masonry headers are no longer recommended for connecting wythes (MSJC 2008, PCA 2008).


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

corrugated ties adhere to the mortar very well. And the mortar adheres to the unit. They are supposed to be installed with spiral nails or screws that have 1 1/4" bite into the stud. Nothing I've ever read in the OBC (ontario building code) part 9 (less then 3 stories and 6000sqft) prohibits the use in steel studs. I'll look again tonight but it certainly doesn't ring a bell.

Edit. Just took a gander and I'm disappointed. It says that strap ties are suitable for multi wythe and for wood framing. There is absolutely no mention of steel studs. The GC is an engineer. I guess I'll ask him tomorrow if he'll pass them.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm good to go with the strap ties. Pretty glad 'cause until I heard that I was running out of wood walls in my hoarding


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*ties*

THEITALIAN204 Thank you for your spot on post dated 1/4/2012 you hit the nail dead on. THANKS AGAIN FJN.


----------

