# GFCI question



## MinConst (Oct 16, 2004)

Haven't been here for quite awhile. I have this issue I cant figure out.
It is a kitchen. There are 3 gfcis on the backsplash. Whenever they plug in the coffee grinder it pops one of the gfcis. Changed coffee grinders same issue. Not always the same gfci either. Nothing else plugged in except a coffee pot that is off. Have also changed coffee pots since the problem has been lurking. How can I trouble shoot this one?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

My first question would be why are there three GFCI's? Depending on how they'e wired, they can sometimes interact to provide a really confusing set of symptoms. Sort it out so there is only one GFCI per circuit, for starters.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Tinstaafl said:


> My first question would be why are there three GFCI's? Depending on how they'e wired, they can sometimes interact to provide a really confusing set of symptoms. Sort it out so there is only one GFCI per circuit, for starters.


Or at least make sure the GFIs are wired independently/in parallel, not off each others' load terminals.


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

tell the customer it's a :
Ground Fault COFFEE Interrupter., seems to work as it should.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

3 gfcis on the backsplash. 
>Could be wired in cascade. A DVM and a 10A load may be able to confirm this. For sure a 4-1/2 digit DVM can.
http://www.bkprecision.com/products...-rms-dmm-with-protective-rubberized-case.html
You use the load and meter as a milliohmmeter.

Whenever they plug in the coffee grinder it pops one of the gfcis. Changed coffee grinders same issue. 
>Check the ground lead of each grinder with an AC milliammeter in series with a 1/32A fuse.

Not always the same gfci either. 
>See 'cascade'.

Nothing else plugged in except a coffee pot that is off. 
>See 'AC milliammeter' above but first check for DC continuity with any DVM.

How quickly it pops gives you some measure of the how bad the ground fault is, if there is one.

You may need a capacitance meter to fully thrash this problem out. The motor-windings-to-housing capacitance may be doing this.

We have a hair dryer with a GFCI plug. Occasionally the wall GFCI trips, never the plug GFCI. 
No hope of troubleshooting this intermittent problem without a data logger.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Does anything else pop them?

Are the outlets backstabbed? If so, pigtail and use the screws.

Make sure that the are wired properly and then pull all of them off but the first one. Plug in and see if it trips. If it does, replace. If it persists it's either the way the grinder is wired the wiring of before it hits the outlets all together. If it doesn't trip add the next outlet and then test again. Eliminate each device.


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## C'est Moi (Jun 6, 2015)

MinConst said:


> Haven't been here for quite awhile. I have this issue I cant figure out.
> It is a kitchen. There are 3 gfcis on the backsplash. Whenever they plug in the coffee grinder it pops one of the gfcis. Changed coffee grinders same issue. Not always the same gfci either. Nothing else plugged in except a coffee pot that is off. Have also changed coffee pots since the problem has been lurking. How can I trouble shoot this one?


Have you tried the gfci on a different circuit that has gfci protection?

If there are 3 gfci's on one circuit I suspect that each gfci is feeding the other thru the load. Although this should not be an issue I would disconnect the load from the first gfci on the circuit and see if the issue disappears


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Two grinders and three outlets gives you six tests. With other motor loads there are more tests. 
If you get contradictory results it's time to break out a meter.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

You could do a bunch of convoluted $#!t that doesn't make sense, involving an oscilloscope and a monkey circumciser, or you could just do as Tin and TNT suggested.

Pull the GFCI's and make sure they are wired properly, then eliminate them until you only have one.

I've seen them where the load side neutral was touching the ground, so it would stay powered up until a load, any load, was plugged in, then it would trip.


Delta


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## j_sims (Jul 5, 2007)

Good advice above me....

(And not trying to be a smarta$$)...
But if your asking about how to fix electric problems in a client's house, 
Why do you want to risk the liability? Why not call a sparky?


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

j_sims said:


> Why do you want to risk the liability? Why not call a sparky?


I'd say MinConst estimated the potential profit and the liability, and wants to go for it.

Going on this forum, he is sort of calling a Sparky.

I'd use non-intrusive methods where you don't open boxes & start pulling out wires, in my own house and others.




Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> involving an oscilloscope and a monkey circumciser


The days of breaker points are gone. Sorry.


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## bartstop (Dec 9, 2013)

I'm not trying to be an a-hole but you should probably call a licensed electrician. You are dealing with electricity and water. It can be very dangerous if not done correctly. How would you feel if a kid got electrocuted?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

How does a piece of paper guarantee a kid isn't going to get electrocuted? This is a simple issue that any handyman should be able to resolve.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:


> You could do a bunch of convoluted $#!t that doesn't make sense, involving an oscilloscope and a monkey circumciser, or you could just do as Tin and TNT suggested.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Holy sh*t that was funny. And right on point.


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## bartstop (Dec 9, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> How does a piece of paper guarantee a kid isn't going to get electrocuted? This is a simple issue that any handyman should be able to resolve.


A license is more than just a piece of paper my friend. They don't give those out to just anybody.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

bartstop said:


> A license is more than just a piece of paper my friend. They don't give those out to just anybody.


Keep telling yourself that. It guarantees ZERO. I've seen a lot of hack work from licensed electricians, plumbers and many other contractors. And I have seen perfection from guys that don't have one.


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## bartstop (Dec 9, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Keep telling yourself that.


Keep telling myself what? You think that license is easy to get? Go take the Master's test. Tell us how you did.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

bartstop said:


> Keep telling myself what? You think that license is easy to get? Go take the Master's test. Tell us how you did.


Keep telling yourself that a test and a piece of paper mean anything. Keep holding on to that notion. I trust results, not ink and paper.

Taking a test and getting a piece of paper GUARANTEES NOTHING. You are stuck on this test and a piece of paper as if it ensures a job well done or even done to code.

And I am well aware of what it takes in this state to get one, more than you think. Like I said, I have seen plenty of licensed hacks.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Not electrician, but I know if its improperly connected they will trip. There is a line and load connectors. Make sure that the power supply is connected to the line connectors and wires going to other receptacles connected to the load connectors. 

If everything is wired the right way, like others said, there could be a short along the way. something is making it trip, or the receptacle itself could be bad.

Good luck


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

bartstop said:


> How would you feel if a kid got electrocuted?


The problem is they are tripping, possibly without reason, not that they're not tripping with reason.
It's a false positive, not a false negative.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Taking a test and getting a piece of paper GUARANTEES NOTHING.


No guarantee, but it gives a reasonable likelihood that the person has mastered a subject.

If the test taker gets 100% it probably means that he or she knows at least what was tested.

If the test taker gets 0% it may mean that he or she knows even less than what was tested, if that's possible.

Therefore, the best tests hardly ever show 0 or 100.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

GettingBy said:


> No guarantee, but it gives a reasonable likelihood that the person has mastered a subject.
> 
> If the test taker gets 100% it probably means that he or she knows at least what was tested.
> 
> ...


Not the point. People are lazy, greedy and dumb. They also may have book smarts but no common sense. There is a million reasons not to trust a piece of paper.

If it were universal then Chicago wouldn't feel the need to have there own test?


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Not the point.
> People are lazy, greedy and dumb.
> They also may have book smarts but no common sense. There is a million reasons not to trust a piece of paper.
> 
> If it were universal then Chicago wouldn't feel the need to have there own test?


Chicago. . .?

You have made it the point by questioning the value of a test.

Lazy, etc., is common knowledge so there is no info in either statement.

As to this particular piece of paper, I hate to quote any politician, but - "trust but verify", which statement in itself seems to be a contradiction.

Your worldview seems to lack shades of grey but I must admit that a black/white outlook is easier. 
Staying in the test-taking theme, your tests show nothing other 100% or 0%?

BTW, my Tricorder is picking up the logical fallacy known as The Straw Man argument. :whistling


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

GettingBy said:


> Chicago. . .?
> 
> You have made it the point by questioning the value of a test.
> 
> ...


I have presented to false subject to knock over.

My statement is a piece of papers is meaningless in relation to quality or accuracy of actual work. The test only qualifies head knowledge. It is not a substitute for experience, nor does it quantify ability and execution. And one must only pass the test, not ace it. Therefore it's logical to conclude there are areas that they are not fully versed.

Also Chicago has one of the hardest tests in the country, but there are several schools that offer classes to help you pass. It reminds me of the practice schools are getting into. They have to give children standardized testing so they begin to teach towards the test. These schools and classes teach you how to pass the test, not actually learn the material.

I also base my opinion on experience. I was a low voltage contractor for 6 years. My business partner was in the process to get his license when I had him buy me out. I have worked on union and non union sites all over Chicago (Northside, Southside, Bronzville, Lincoln Park, Downtown and the near suburbs). I have seen licensed plumbers, electricians and HVAC contractors hack the crap out of their work.

I've also seen guys working under other guys license do some pretty darn good work. Never took a test and didn't own a piece of paper.

I am a pretty black and white guy. I have yet to see a shade of gray that was true. What would that look like to you? Either a guy knows his stuff and does a good job or they don't. There is no "it will do" in my world.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

My statement is a piece of papers is meaningless in relation to quality or accuracy of actual work. The test only qualifies head knowledge. It is not a substitute for experience, nor does it quantify ability and execution. And one must only pass the test, not ace it. Therefore it's logical to conclude there are areas that they are not fully versed.
>Tests are necessarily a short term substitute or sample for long-term observation. 
I suppose the unstated assumption is that head knowledge is meaningfully correlated with occupational success, just like the SAT aims to predict later outcomes.

These schools and classes teach you how to pass the test, not actually learn the material.
>Unfortunately, teaching to the test is becoming common.

I have seen licensed plumbers, electricians and HVAC contractors hack the crap out of their work.
>Because? Drugs, indifference, time pressure, incompetence, revenge, ? To pick out these factors you'd need a psych test in addition to an academic achievement test.

I've also seen guys working under other guys license do some pretty darn good work. Never took a test and didn't own a piece of paper.
>And when you flip a coin sometimes it come up heads.

I am a pretty black and white guy. I have yet to see a shade of gray that was true. What would that look like to you? Either a guy knows his stuff and does a good job or they don't. There is no "it will do" in my world.
>The shades of gray fill in meaningful details that are otherwise lost.
Your method may work for you, or it doesn't and you don't realize it. Sitting here I can't say either way but I am now regretting my black/white view of the world.
Does a black & white film convey as much info to you as a color film?

Thanks for your facts & opinions. :thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

GettingBy said:


> My statement is a piece of papers is meaningless in relation to quality or accuracy of actual work. The test only qualifies head knowledge. It is not a substitute for experience, nor does it quantify ability and execution. And one must only pass the test, not ace it. Therefore it's logical to conclude there are areas that they are not fully versed.
> >Tests are necessarily a short term substitute or sample for long-term observation.
> I suppose the unstated assumption is that head knowledge is meaningfully correlated with occupational success, just like the SAT aims to predict later outcomes.
> 
> ...


The question remains what is gray. Give me an example of gray.


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## LI-Remodeler (Feb 3, 2015)

MinConst said:


> Haven't been here for quite awhile. I have this issue I cant figure out.
> It is a kitchen. There are 3 gfcis on the backsplash. Whenever they plug in the coffee grinder it pops one of the gfcis. Changed coffee grinders same issue. Not always the same gfci either. Nothing else plugged in except a coffee pot that is off. Have also changed coffee pots since the problem has been lurking. How can I trouble shoot this one?



plug the grinders in another gfi protected circuit in the home. That would be my first test, R/O leaking grinders


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> The question remains what is gray. Give me an example of gray.


I'll try. 
How 'bout people who have good and bad qualities? 
There was a Kung Fu episode about this. Equal numbers of people said good and bad things about some guy who was found hanged.

I guess gray is *not* 
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Manichaeism
or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism

There's also this saying about if only the birds who sung the best would sing, the forest would be a quiet place.

Maybe you should ask someone who hasn't spent most of their life in a black & white world (me).


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

GettingBy said:


> I'll try.
> How 'bout people who have good and bad qualities?
> There was a Kung Fu episode about this. Equal numbers of people said good and bad things about some guy who was found hanged.
> 
> ...


Definitions from an open source online encyclopedia just aren't going to cut it. I have been to all the classes and they don't impress me.

We are also not speaking of subjective subjects. Opinions are still based on instances and examples that we feel either fall into two categories, right and wrong. So the best birds are in the ear of the beholder. However with that said, notes are notes. You either hit them or you don't. See black and white. 

Still waiting for an example that is in context with our conversation.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Definitions from an open source online encyclopedia just aren't going to cut it. I have been to all the classes and they don't impress me.
> 
> We are also not speaking of subjective subjects. Opinions are still based on instances and examples that we feel either fall into two categories, right and wrong. So the best birds are in the ear of the beholder. However with that said, notes are notes. You either hit them or you don't. See black and white.
> 
> Still waiting for an example that is in context with our conversation.


This isn't working but I am learning a lot about you from your answers. Will be back with another approach, more to hone my writing skills than to settle this. Thank you for your patience. Stay tuned. :thumbsup:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

So you are saying its a gray area.


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

Another thread derailed, great job.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

The conversation has certainly ceased to have any relevance to the OP, or electrical work.

Thread closed.


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