# Tricks for installing seamless gutters



## 4319hendrie

Just working on a seamless gutter job the last few days, kinda being taught the ropes by a guy that i work with. Wondering if anyone has any time saving, or quality improving tips you want to share.


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## red_cedar

If you want a quality job dont use the premade corners. Miter the gutter.
Unless you consider quality 20 yrs for a material that should last 100
Oh ya, dont use screws that rusts on a material that does not.


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## Grumpy

Red, while I do agree that the aluminum shoudl be able to last 100 years, I don't think mitering the corners has anything to do with it. All corners in aluminum gutter are dependant upon sealant and there are no selants that I know of which will last 100 years. Even if you miter the corner you still have to seal it. 

I personally think the problem is people go cheap on sealant at the corners and outlets, and IMO always use an outlet. I have no problem using half a tube at each area to be caulked. I laugh when I go for a repair and see that who ever installed the gutter treated caulk like gold, using as little as possible.

The aluminum material will last 100 years, but the gutter won't IMO... Around here 20 years is the max, and the gutters will need maintenance a few times after 10 years due to sealants.


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## 4319hendrie

We were using strip miters, rivets and enough caulk, sure seems to me like it looked good, and was pretty watertight. What do you mean when you say you miter the corner?


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## Grumpy

At a corner instead of installing the pre-fab corner piece, usually called an inside and outside miter, instead the gutter installer will cut the ends of the corner at 45 degrees and butt the pieces together. Then usually there is a very small corner piece, only a few inches wide, used to terminate the gutter. 

Personally I don't see a difference between the two methods other than more time spent with the miter method.


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## gutrman

I agree with red... we only miter our corners. Much stronger, does not fade to different colors, and looks much nicer. I don't know how many times we are called to fix leaking corners that have been installed only several years prior. Box miters are the worst. Box and strip miters are also made of lower guage aluminum than gutter coil. 

Some guys around our area use white corners on all color jobs and then spray paint it after it is up on the house. Within a year you can really see where they sprayed. (I will try to post some pics)

I agree with Grumpy on using good sealant on the corners. That is half the battle.


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## red_cedar

My mention of mitering the corner involves a finer method of installation.
It involves no seperate piece ( aka ) strip miter. the gutter pieces are precisely cut and joined together with rivets. if done well, you only see 3 or 4 rivets on each corner. Looks like crown moulding. 
Ok maybe not a 100 yrs. But a lot longer then 20. Not to mention the color fading uniformly.


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## Grumpy

Can you send a pic? I think I understand what you are saying, which is what we do with copper gutter due to the high cost of miter corners. However we solder all copper.

I see no need on aluminum however. Toss on the prefab corners and be done with it.


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## Mrsamman

*Mitered corners?*

In my personal opinion mitered corners are not as good as strip-miter corners. Miter corners are just butt joints with caulking just over the seam, when the gutter expands and contracts it will separate the caulking and cause a leak, I have even see the rivets pull out of the corner because of the movement. On our strip miters we run a bead of caulk on the miter before we install the miter, this bonds the miter to the guttering and then use screw to attach everything. We have taken miters apart years later and it actually pulls the paint off the gutter.

Scott


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## dennis

And because the joints on aluminum will all leak sooner or later, be sure to run the joint laps with the flow of water.:thumbsup:


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## BRNDIVY

4319hendrie said:


> Just working on a seamless gutter job the last few days, kinda being taught the ropes by a guy that i work with. Wondering if anyone has any time saving, or quality improving tips you want to share.


 
If at all possible, avoid using box or strip miters. Use plenty of good quality sealant on all outlets, endcaps, and miters. The most expensive sealant does not always equal best so, you may have to experiment a bit till you find the right product. Also, use a hidden type hanger for your installs.


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## Bob Bridgewater

Some times you have no choice, But to do miters. Sometimes your big bay windows will have gutters and more times than not these are a 22 1/2 deg angle. That's when like Grumpy said you use these narrow miter caps. Made just for bays!
I dont like doing gutters (Don't know a sider that does) but when I do I dont wast time on a house always use pre fab corners! They make for extra hands to on long runs!LOL


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## BRNDIVY

Bob Bridgewater said:


> Some times you have no choice, But to do miters. Sometimes your big bay windows will have gutters and more times than not these are a 22 1/2 deg angle.


My guys have always cut bay miters and don't find it any different than any other miter. Believe me, these guys spent quite a bit of time perfecting their miter patterns and dare anyone to touch them


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## gutrman

Mrsamman said:


> In my personal opinion mitered corners are not as good as strip-miter corners. Miter corners are just butt joints with caulking just over the seam, when the gutter expands and contracts it will separate the caulking and cause a leak, I have even see the rivets pull out of the corner because of the movement. On our strip miters we run a bead of caulk on the miter before we install the miter, this bonds the miter to the guttering and then use screw to attach everything. We have taken miters apart years later and it actually pulls the paint off the gutter.
> 
> Scott


I can not speak for everyone, but we overlap the miters and pop rivot together. 

I don't understand how the caulk would seperate with a mitered corner and not a strip-miter. It is clear you are using a quality sealant when you say it pulls the paint off the gutter. But the gutter will expand just the same as a mitered corner or as strip. And with expansion and contraction of two pieces into a weaker piece will cause more chances for leakage, especially if screws are used in fastening the strip-miter. Screws will turn back out much easier than pop rivots.

This year we had to tear off gutter my Father installed over 20 years ago and the corners looked great with no leaking. We had to take a knife to cut the sealant in order to get the corners apart. All pop rivots were in place except for 2 in the back-side of the gutter on a 90' piece. 

We were changing the gutter because the homeowner was changing colors and decided to put all new soffit, fascia, and gutter, as well as a roof.

BTW, it is nice to see more gutter contractors on here!:thumbsup: It is good to hear and give different opinions. It keeps everyone on their toes and thinking.

BRNDIVY, where in Ohio are you from? We are in a small town called Ottawa in the Northwest.


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## BRNDIVY

gutrman said:


> BRNDIVY, where in Ohio are you from? We are in a small town called Ottawa in the Northwest.


I'm in Fairfield. It's just about 20 minutes north of Cincinnati...Not too far from ya.


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## Bob Bridgewater

Well There better than me! LOL. Look! I'm not doing copper on a million dollor house.


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## TRISTAN

*Tristan*

When Mitering For A Bay Window (135 Deg Outside Corner ) Should I Use A Piece Of Alum. On The Gutter Floor As Reinforcement? Should The Pop Rivets Be On The Back Side Or On The Bottom?


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## Bob Bridgewater

Most my bays are around 22 1/2 deg LOL


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## TRISTAN

Miters Are Cat At 221/2 Deg, So Overall Angle Is 135 Deg. So How Is It Done? How Is It Assembled?


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## Jameskennedy

Quick question for you veteran seamless gutter installers, I have just purchased 50% of a small gutter company and we were just running a 5K machine and my partner has always used strip miters on the corners, since joining the company I have just purchased a Step Face Fascia Machine and there is no strio miters for this profile and my partner has been using a template that we received from JB Gutterman and just tracing and cuttin the tabs with snips, well heres my question is there a miter saw that you guys could recommend to cut perfect 45's in fascia gutter or do you recommend using a hacksaw then cutting and bending the tabs into em. The reason I ask is I would like to get away from the strip miters with the 5K as well, the custom corner just looks better. But I dont like all the messing around to get the corners to line up and a chop saw with perfect 45's would just seem to be the best way to go ad a miter box would have to be pretty big to cut step face fascia gutter. I'm gonna try and build a miter box to use with a hacksaw and let ya's know how that goes but a saw just seems like a better and quiker way to go.
PS I bought a 14 inch chop saw and I couldnt get all the way through the step face gutter on a 45 so I'm guessing I need at least a 15inch saw anyone got one they can recommend besides the Hitachi. Or are willing to sell at a decent price.


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## Tom Struble

ageed:thumbsup:


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## CrescentGutter

Been using Alcoa rivet on end caps lately. I like the finished look better than the crimp on style. So far I can only find them at guttersupply.com. Even at contractor price they're pushing $5 each plus shipping. 
So far Google has not been my friend with regards to finding another place to buy online. The local supply place where I get coil & downspout only carries crimp ons. Anyone out there have another source?
Never mind. Discovered that my local supplier does carry them. Their catalog just isn't crystal clear on it. Much, much cheaper than the old source also.


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## gutter girl

Just a suggestion....learn how to "hand miter" your corners. Strip miters are junk and box miters are worse. Professionals precisely cut and miter their corners by hand. The look is second to none!! Use the internet to learn the technique and once you've mastered it push it in your sales pitch. It will def give you an edge!!

Use elastomeric caulk....marine grade and the best!! Ruscoe is a good brand. BTW, you don't need half the tube.


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## pete - 70

Absolutely no difference between miter corners vs a miter box, both installed method work the same if properly done. A miter corner just look more elaborate than a box
corner whereas the seams are apparent -- the miter corners adds a better appeal to
the job quality. Caulking around a miter corner and box miter will all leak due to severe
weather condition that which the caulking has to withstand. I think it is a luck of the draw thing; nobody can warranty a job for 20yrs.,30yrs, 100yrs etc. THE BIG ENEMY is the weather, it plays a very big vital role for destruction on construction. Of course quality of product is of essence, but with severe cold polar vortex in the north state attributed with our summer being quite humid,High Winds and Storms(pending where you're located) will break up caulking sealant in no time over the long haul( the weather is winning,the material does'nt survive too
long).


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## CrescentGutter

Welcome to the forum Pete. But you do realize the thread you found is over 4 years old, don't you?


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## pete - 70

I did'nt realize it is only current thread to make comment on, kinda new to it!, also base
on contractortalk site i was also a bit confuse if i am responding to your comment. Forgive me i am a first timer. Cheers!.


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## CrescentGutter

pete - 70 said:


> I did'nt realize it is only current thread to make comment on, kinda new to it!, also base
> on contractortalk site i was also a bit confuse if i am responding to your comment. Forgive me i am a first timer. Cheers!.


It's not a big deal. It's easy to overlook the date when a post pops up with the search function. Everyone does it from time to time. 
If you don't see anything current that's related to what you'd like to discuss, just start your own new topic.


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## pete - 70

Thanks for the info.


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## JWilliams

Woooo


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## jb4211

Pete, I don't mind. Glad you found it actually. There are probably countless threads that are incredibly useful to many, but still years old. 

That's for giving this one a "bump".


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## Roofcheck

Best thing I can suggest as a tip to installing seamless gutters..... CALL ME!


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## pete - 70

"Know it all", just like to know if you're familiar with the Kop R Lastic type of caulking, is
there a very similar kind to that brand?, maybe u can fill me in. Thanks.


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## CrescentGutter

Geocel 2320.


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## PatChap

Koprlastic is pretty popular here, I prefer Mulco Supra, it's very similar to geocell, which is very sparsely stocked in our area.


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## NYgutterguy

PatChap said:


> Koprlastic is pretty popular here, I prefer Mulco Supra, it's very similar to geocell, which is very sparsely stocked in our area.


A lot of the sealers have come a long way from when i started.. Been using geo exclusively and cant remember the last time i got a call back..Few of the hacks around here still use karnac :laughing:


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## PatChap

NYGUTTERGUY said:


> A lot of the sealers have come a long way from when i started.. Been using geo exclusively and cant remember the last time i got a call back..Few of the hacks around here still use karnac :laughing:


We did a trough a few years ago, one of the 15+ corners dripped a bit, customer thought he would save us s trip and try to caulk it himself.

Must have used a whole tube of Alex painters caulk. Took an hour to scrape it out and reveal the little 1/8" gap in the caulk. I asked him not to do me any more favors :laughing:


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## StromanSeamless

Lots of great tips here. Recently started my own gutter company after working with a guy for a few years due to the demand here in Nebraska. :thumbup:


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## markore

Thanks for all the discussion and especially thanks for the clean soffit picture with no hat channel, nice work!

One question: How far do you extend your gutter out past gable rake ends on open eave jobs where the gable rake trim does not cover the end of the gutter?


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## CrescentGutter

markore said:


> Thanks for all the discussion and especially thanks for the clean soffit picture with no hat channel, nice work!
> 
> One question: How far do you extend your gutter out past gable rake ends on open eave jobs where the gable rake trim does not cover the end of the gutter?


I generally measure the drip edge from rake to rake and then add 1 inch. Gives me a half inch past each end and also allows a tiny bit of side to side adjustment to get the downspout alignment just right.


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