# Polyethylene for gas line



## tool junkie (Jan 30, 2008)

More and more I get guys trying to sell me on the PE for gas idea and Im kind of an old school guy. Can I see some opinions for and against? Just doesnt seem durable. And what about local codes? At least in my city its not allowed for residential use. Thanks.


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## nhmaster3015 (Sep 6, 2008)

I admit it kind of make me scratch my head also but around here the local gas utility is pretty much using it everywhere. I suppose I would too but I'm not set up for it yet.


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## j_builder (May 10, 2008)

tool junkie said:


> More and more I get guys trying to sell me on the PE for gas idea and Im kind of an old school guy. Can I see some opinions for and against? Just doesnt seem durable. And what about local codes? At least in my city its not allowed for residential use. Thanks.


I haven't installed any PE gas lines for any residential projects (yet) but I have for swimming pool gas lines and let me tell you that its the way to go just need to buy more tools (110v electric heat fusion iron) also you'll need to take a short class to be certified for PE fusion.

Old School= pain cutting and treading all the Scotch-coat piping and wrapping with 10 mil tape "Boring".


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

Used all over N. Calif. No joints on long runs!


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

Do you mean for inside or for outside?

I am strongly against it for inside. (I think it's a PEX-AL-PEX that is being marketed for inside use, not PE.)

But outside? Better than steel by a long shot.


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

I use it often,it's the only way to go.CSST is also legal but it has to be in a conduit,vented and grounded.I've done that as well.For the pe, if the fusion tool is not available they also make compression risers with insert fittings.The risers are coated iron and are very stable.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

My stir stick........


So you WILL use it indoors at 80-110 PSI for water but not for 1/4-2 psi gas. 

Apparently you DO NOT TRULY trust the integrity?????!!!!!


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

MALCO.New.York said:


> My stir stick........
> 
> 
> So you WILL use it indoors at 80-110 PSI for water but not for 1/4-2 psi gas.
> ...


Slow night tonight ....?:laughing:


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

*Yes it is a slow nite ,and..................*

Malco has an excellent point!!!


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

My eyes are immune to wool. My mind is impervious to marketing and mass conditioning. My Heart is as pure as the driven Snow in a Romantic Novel because I have seen ALL there is to see concerning BS and the control implemented by those who have the power to do so.

Experience dictates position, understanding and Rank.

Now....Care to explain the "double standard"?


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

MALCO.New.York said:


> My eyes are immune to wool. My mind is impervious to marketing and mass conditioning. My Heart is as pure as the driven Snow in a Romantic Novel because I have seen ALL there is to see concerning BS and the control implemented by those who have the power to do so.
> 
> Experience dictates position, understanding and Rank.
> 
> *Now....Care to explain the "double standard"*?


A mouse chews a hole, or a nail or what ever, one you have some water, the other, you hit a light switch and *BOOM!*






.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

But .................This will NEVER happen with copper. Water is MORE destructive than fire. Statistically.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

If your logic is correct then let's use copper and soldered joints for gas.

See how that flies.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

22rifle said:


> If your logic is correct then let's use copper and soldered joints for gas.
> 
> See how that flies.


You gotta point Riffle. (no errror in spelling)


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

MALCO.New.York said:


> But .................This will NEVER happen with copper. Water is MORE destructive than fire. Statistically.


Only to the person who does not know how to interpret statistics correctly.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

22rifle said:


> Only to the person who does not know how to interpret statistics correctly.



Water IS statistically, yearly, Historically, more destructive than fire. PERIOD.

Not because of a hose leak......


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

The standard for gas is a metal to metal joint. That makes a lot of sense to me. There are CSST brands out there that use a non-metal seal and I will not use them. 

Gas is a completely different animal than water. Too many times I have seen air (a gas) leak where water would not. (Think T&S valves) So a metal to metal seal makes a lot of sense to me. 

Now think about how and where gas lines stub out. Lots of times a gas line is stubbed out in places it can be easily bumped. Water heaters, furnaces, barbecues, etc. Also, many appliances connected to gas lines are movable. (Think dryer, range, etc.) 

I don't know about you, but I am not interested in having those stub outs made of something that could bend and kink. Not am I interested in having appliances moved around that are connected to something that can bend and kink. There simply isn't the structural integrity there to risk all that.

I can't think of a single situation I use PEX in similarly risky situations. Except for fixture stub outs, any exposed piping would be copper on my job. That is one place copper has the advantage. 

But still, a lot of it has to do with the differences between a gas and a liquid.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

MALCO.New.York said:


> Water IS statistically, yearly, Historically, more destructive than fire. PERIOD.
> 
> Not because of a hose leak......


Well, of course.

But that is a meaningless statistic in the narrow confines of this debate.

Here is the statistic that would matter.

On average, in any given building, will a gas explosion or fire cause more or less destruction than a water leak?


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

22rifle said:


> Well, of course.
> 
> But that is a meaningless statistic in the narrow confines of this debate.
> 
> ...


Uh....Let me get back to you on that one......I will have to research it.....:w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t:


Touche' Mon Fre're'


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*I'd rather own one of 50 homes that developes water stains, or rotted framing than the one home that explodes while my wife and kids are asleep.*


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## tool junkie (Jan 30, 2008)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *I'd rather own one of 50 homes that developes water stains, or rotted framing than the one home that explodes while my wife and kids are asleep.*


good point!


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## AtlantaPlumbers (Aug 14, 2008)

:laughing:


22rifle said:


> If your logic is correct then let's use copper and soldered joints for gas.
> 
> See how that flies.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

*But 22.........*


You have to understand that I NEVER argued copper for gas. Reverse logic is NOT part of the Deductive Reasoning Process.

I did argue that I do not like PEX and was just stirring, (I did pretext my post by saying so), in order to find out MORE about the why and how you guys like it. 

It is an attempt to force you guys in to arguing me in to believing in PEX. So many of you use it and I am trying to understand and believe the why!

Unfortunately my attempt failed. Although I do appreciate your post on "metal to metal".

Thank You!


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

MALCO.New.York said:


> *But 22.........*
> 
> 
> You have to understand that I NEVER argued copper for gas. Reverse logic is NOT part of the Deductive Reasoning Process.


I was stalling for time to get to the real issues. I had a splitting headache, was under a bunch of stress, and wasn't hitting on all cylinders.


So I stalled for time.

Hey, at least I am honest about it. LOL


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

22rifle said:


> I was stalling for time to get to the real issues. I had a splitting headache, was under a bunch of stress, and wasn't hitting on all cylinders.
> 
> 
> So I stalled for time.
> ...



??????????


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

MALCO.New.York said:


> ??????????


I was saying... my post about the copper pipe was stalling for time.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

22rifle said:


> I was saying... my post about the copper pipe was stalling for time.


Aaaaahhhhh!


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## tool junkie (Jan 30, 2008)

22rifle said:


> I was stalling for time to get to the real issues. I had a splitting headache, was under a bunch of stress, and wasn't hitting on all cylinders.


Ummm... that sounds like PMS cause thats exactly how my wife gets :whistling


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## CA PLMBR (Sep 13, 2008)

tool junkie said:


> good point!


Hey tool junkie,
I am certified in PE butt/socket fusion. I have installed it underground for attached condominiums. I ran it from one end of the building (7 banked meters) to the other. It was a 2 lb system so I was able to make all the runs in 1" (able to run up to 200') except the last unit which had to be run in 1 1/4". I have full confidence in this piping and it connections butt or socket. From my understanding you are not allowed to run this piping in or under a building so the exploding house theory is out. I believe it is superior to metal because there is no rust factor, no leaking threads, nor any broken pipes from earth movement such as our notorious earthquakes here in Cali. This pipe is also the primary mode of delivery of gas in my area by SoCal Gas Co. Only difference is that you must run a yellow leader wire (I believe at least 18 guage) alongside of any runs made for location purposes. This piping is also ideal for those accidental (I forgot to call Dig-Alert/Didn't know what those yellow flags were for) back-hoe hits because the gas company can repair these line is record time with saddle-type repair fittings. I also am from the school of less fitting the better. Well how about a 500' roll of PE as apposed to close to 24 sections of pipe to cover the same run. It's a no brainer if were talking about statistics you just narrowed the chances of a fitting leaking by (gets out calculator) a whole FRIGGIN lot. Come on guys I truly believe there are alot of things to learn from the old tymers but don't dismiss a product simply because it's not "the way we've always done it". Sometimes new ideas are good. As for the CSST I don't think it's just a remodelers wet dream I believe it has its place. As for not using metal seals comment from 22rifle I have used 2 types of CSST (Gas-tite and Trac-Pipe) and both have metal to metal seals. They are flare connections made at time of install. The fittings are brass and the connections are made after you install the brass nut on the (plastic coated) stainless steel corrugated piping then you place 2 moon-shaped 1/2 rings into the last groove of the pipe (that you just cut). Finally you place the nut on the brass fitting tighten and the stainless steel bends to meet the surface of the flared brass fitting. In my experience although more expensive and usually engineered as branch lines and not for main feed this piping also allows for less fittings. I have not seen more leaks come from the CSST connections as opposed to IP connections. Once a person is well versed in the install of this piping I feel it is a good product. Now with my municipalities fireproofing has been an issue with multifamily units. They had issue with the plastic covering. They required us to strip the sections going through the firewall or fire envelopes. I used this piping for very difficult 3 story multifamily units with no chases and many beams. I had to run across up to 8 units with 1 1/2" piping. Without this product the potential for leaks would have been enormous due to having to hug the ceiling and dip below 7 units worth of beams. With IP this would have required 4-90s each dip not to mention any other jogs I had to make. With the CSST it took 2 guys to feed the 1 1/2" piping through the units. As for having floppy connections...we never used the CSST to stub out we always had a stub-out connected to a drop connected to a 90 and another 1' section and a coupling. That way we could secure that 1' section to the joisting or truss assuring that nothing done to the stub out would affect the CSST. I don't think CSST is going to put IP out of business but I believe it has it's place. I hope this post helps.


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

*Thank You Ca. plumber*

A man with facts and experience ! How will They ever handle THIS ?????


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## CA PLMBR (Sep 13, 2008)

Driftwood said:


> A man with facts and experience ! How will They ever handle THIS ?????


Thank you Driftwood,
My intent is not to challenge as much as to inform and share the experiences that I've had. I don't know everything but the subjects I post on I feel I have something to offer. I have yet to post a question but I am digging deep. My questions will probably be more along the lines of how best to advertise or how best to grow with my business. I am hoping that the information I share will inspire those with the experience in the areas of my lacking come to my aid. Best wishes to all.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

With my experience with PE, I would not use it for anything especially gas.

I've posted this before. I worked for a company that used PE for pneumatics. A customer got some cleaning agent on the tubing and you could literally crumble the stuff between your fingers. We never figured out what it was but it's an OTC cleaner.


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## CA PLMBR (Sep 13, 2008)

I respect your opinion Teetorbilt. However per the manufacturers PEX is photo-sensitive (UV exposure) and petroleum sensitive. As long as you keep it out of the sun and do not use any petroleum products on it you should be fine. Everything has it's Kryptonite. Copper is sensitive to Acidity and Alkalinity. We know about galvi. Just my opinion. My Kryptonite is my wife. She makes me weak in the knees.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I've also seen a class action suit against Zurn? One of the connector companies. They're much better materials out there, everybody just wants to go CHEAP.

I engage the concept and use it, 12 yrs. without a single failure. I just use PU or Teflon tube and stainless steel connectors. This was learned from 7 yrs. of PE failures which occurred just after the Qest debacle.

It's all about money. My way, I'd CONSIDER putting in my own home. At the cost of doing it right why not stay with the tried and true (copper)?


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

Hey CA-PLMBR... Your description of how you install CSST is exactly how I do it. I hope you understood that I meant I won't use the non-metal to metal seal type but do use the metal to metal types.

I am certified in Gastite, Trac-Pipe, and Wardflex. It's the Wardflex I won't use.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

22rifle said:


> Hey CA-PLMBR... Your description of how you install CSST is exactly how I do it. I hope you understood that I meant I won't use the non-metal to metal seal type but *do use the metal to metal types.*
> 
> I am certified in Gastite, Trac-Pipe, and Wardflex. *It's the Wardflex I won't use*.


*Exactly the same here, not a fan of CSST but when I have to use it, no graphite washers, no annealed (weakened) tubing.*


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## Driftwood (Feb 15, 2004)

*Love gas tite for crawlers*

I never complain about crawlers ,but I had the worst one in My life 2 years ago!
Thank You gas tite . Building back East,We had nice basements! Still can't figure out why the West doesn't have them! But the old S.F. homes do.
OH, Seams like My threader gains about 100 lbs. a year! I use My back hoe to load it into the chevy, from the shop, when alone.


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