# building a shower bench when using backer board on walls?



## angus242

Came out nice!


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## srwcontracting

jarvis design said:


> A little note - I put a 2" slope on the ceiling (over 4') to allow the water droplets to run off rather than drip. Found out after I should have sloped it about 4" - water still drips.


 
This is why I read this site!!!:thumbup: Would have never thought of that until I did one level! 
Thanks!


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## HS345

srwcontracting said:


> This is why I read this site!!!:thumbup: Would have never thought of that until I did one level!
> Thanks!


TCA guidelines actually call for 2" per foot slope.


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## CO762

angus242 said:


> You know the OP is 14 months old......




Didn't see that as I don't stop by often....and apparently pay a lot of attention at times.....but that's already known.... :laughing:


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## CO762

wopachop said:


>


Must be true about there not being any fat people in CA..... :jester:


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## Bud Cline

*FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH.....*

_Liquid waterproofing membranes_ are vapor transmissive and therefore should never be used to waterproof steam shower walls. Doesn't matter how many coats are applied. They are fine in regular showers but discouraged in steam showers.


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## CO762

Bud Cline said:


> _Liquid waterproofing membranes_ are vapor transmissive and therefore should never be used to waterproof steam shower walls. Doesn't matter how many coats are applied. They are fine in regular showers but discouraged in steam showers.


...Continuing to widen the discussion.... 

Common practice in CO was to use the black stuff for all steam apps.


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## Bud Cline

If the "black stuff" you refer to is Laticrete's Product #9235 then I assume the same would apply but I don't know that about 9235 in particular. I think Laticrete started all this with their Product#9235 decades ago and the others are mere knockoffs.

I KNOW!!! I'll go ask Henry.


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## CO762

Bud Cline said:


> If the "black stuff" you refer to is Laticrete's Product #9235




You're letting out _the secret!_!!!!!!! 
I don't know how long it's been approved, but that's all we use.

For non steam apps, we're just normal.










OMG! :1eye:


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## Bud Cline

Henry tells me that 9235 is approved for steam showers but a moisture barrier is required on the backside because 9235 is vapor transmissive while at the same time waterproof - as is all the other liquid waterproofing products. (Moisture barrier AND surface waterproofing seems to go against current recommendations to my knowledge.) 

That's straight from the horse's mouth tho. Laticrete's 9235 is has been around for about firty-five years and still going.


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## CO762

Bud Cline said:


> Henry tells me that 9235 is approved for steam showers but a moisture barrier is required on the backside because 9235 is vapor transmissive while at the same time waterproof - as is all the other liquid waterproofing products.


Seems to be the case. Must be something in the on site liquid -> solid process that allows vapor, unlike the prefab sheet stuff. I'd guess the "air" shrinking/bonding isn't sufficient enough to provide a barrier to vapor transmission.

I like to read/discuss the differences in materials/manners of doing things.
I also like to note the differences in the same trades done in different areas, in different sectors (commercial/residential/handyman).



> That's straight from the horse's mouth tho. Laticrete's 9235 is has been around for about firty-five years and still going.


Gonna be interesting to see where that goes. With the emphasis on direct sales/marketing by manufacturers to homeowners/DIY, gonna be interesting to see where the market goes.


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## Bud Cline

During just the past ten years (or less) the industry has taken some giant leaps and some giant strides, most all for the betterment of everyone. Some of the leaps were nothing more than a small idea with an overblown rush to the marketplace and hype that did not include much (if any) R&D dollars. Those leaping products may or may not still be available. 

Liquid waterproofing is a good example of this in the "giant stride" department but I don't understand why it took so long for others to knock-off the 9235 product. I love the stuff by the way and they have made my job a lot easier.

I guess I don't have a genuine scientific mind because I struggle with a product being waterproof but not at the same time vapor proof. OH SURE, the concept of the size of water droplets as opposed to vapor droplets is simple enough, but still........:sad:

I also struggle with the concept of installing cement board in unmodified thinset to encourage the eventual separation of the cement board from the substrate while at the same time installing mechanical fasteners every six to eight inches in each direction to hold it all down.:whistling Some things just escape me I guess.


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## hardscrabble

Some you guys must be young not to of heard about hot mopping a shower install. I would think you would have run into it on remodels of older homes. And if not, what did they use for pans in the midwest or east coast back in the day? I have heard of metal or lead pans. 
In reference to floating the bench its standard to put lath in the pan without roofing nails to keep the waterproof integrity of the hot mop and then floating the mortar bed. The same logic is consistent with the bench lath plus mortar, no nails, unless the bench is floating so water can drip to the pan, if it gets through the nails
Before the advent of durock and denshield and all the other new products, only true tile artisans could float a mortar wall with lath and paper. 
the hacks were using greenboard because nothing else was available. 
Then it was hot mopped pan with durock walls over craft paper. The OP is just a bit behind in the race of latest techniques.


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## Bud Cline

Hot-mopping still exists in mainly California (where you are) and Arizona, then it also is still done in the northeast.

It's a foolproof method but also dated just like mud walls have become dated, there are easier ways.

In the Midwest there must be some hot-mopping somewhere but it just isn't done in most areas routinely.

Vinyl pans have been around for decades and before that were lead pans and copper pans. Schluter KERDI is becoming the hot ticket now days and is a better method in my thinking than any of the predecessors.


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## CO762

Bud,
Quite right, there were a lot of "technological advances" lately. I think a lot of those were "vertical market" driven though. Commercial guys just do/install what they're given--it makes little difference to them, though they all b***h as a part of the process of "work". There's little incentive to put out a hi tech fangled product for them unless it saves time/labor/costs. And most of the new stuff doesn't. Period. (sans non fabric liquids for pans). The materials they use is spec'd by the architect/designer anyway.

On a lot of the commercial jobs, half the time the drywall crews are the ones that put up the rock anyway. We'd prefer to rock it ourselves, but sometimes that's not in the contract and/or the helper/finisher's time is better spent in support of the installs. We get paid for floating/installs. Stick a pallet of material in front of us and off we go.

So the real growth will be in the real decisionmakers--the homeowners.
With the real estate boom, the fix and flip thing (HGTV, etc.), the quickest and most growth was the DIY/handyman crowd. Thus the "it's so easy, even a caveman could do it" approach to their marketing. I asked JB about ditra one time and he finally said something along the lines of, "we try to make it as foolproof on the homeowner as possible".

To me, that's a marketing ploy because the floor spec's for ditra is the same as any other underlayment, so no cheating there. Nothing above the ditra (installing) is any different either. So what's "foolproof"? Nothing.

The market has been trying to dumb down and de-craft the trades for a while and in some instances, it can. However, there are trade-offs. 



Bud Cline said:


> I guess I don't have a genuine scientific mind because I struggle with a product being waterproof but not at the same time vapor proof. OH SURE, the concept of the size of water droplets as opposed to vapor droplets is simple enough, but still.....


How about this--The solids of a liquid membrane are "suspended" in a liquid. Take it out of the bucket, smear it on and now it's exposed to the air in a much thinner layer. So the liquid slowly evaporates, leaving nothing but the solids behind. There is some shrinkage of the space between the solids that used to be occupied by the carrier (liquid), but that's it--the solids reach out and hold hands with each other in a small enough chain to not let water in.

Sheet membranes however, when they are made, (guessing here)--there is a liquid carrier of some sort also. However, when they are cured (put into a machine to remove the liquid and leave the solids), it's probably done under some sort of pressure, a force to smash them together (could even be a vacuum). So after this is done, instead of the solids just "holding hands" in a line, they are now smashed cheek to cheek, like japanese in a tokyo subway. They're packed so tight, nothing can sneak thru.


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## HS345

CO2, I realize you have some kinda aversion to Schluter products, and that's fine. But your constant spreading of disinformation concerning their products is becoming tiresome in the extreme. 
Ditra is not "the same" as other underlayments. You know it, I know it, just about every professional tile installer knows it. Please cut the crap.


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## CO762

hardscrabble said:


> Some you guys must be young not to of heard about hot mopping a shower install. I would think you would have run into it on remodels of older homes. And if not, what did they use for pans in the midwest or east coast back in the day? I have heard of metal or lead pans.


I've not come across those in the bungalows in downtown denver. Those that I've had the unfortunate experience of having to do are all plastic. I steer clear of bungalows tho due to having to deal with small spaces, old plumbing, plank flooring, lathe/plaster walls, etc. Talked to a bud yesterday and he's doing a bunch of metal pans with epoxy. I don't do epoxy and I'm in the process of building cabinets.....so I didn't venture into what he's actually doing. Besides, his women-related stories are always better.


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## CO762

HS345 said:


> CO2 I realize you have some kinda aversion to Schluter products, and that's fine.


[once again]
I don't have an aversion to schluter products--I use their strips all the time.
I just think ditra is a gimmick--but have used it and will prolly use it again in the future. Just not on my dime.



> But your constant spreading of disinformation concerning their products is becoming tiresome in the extreme.


Then don't read what I write much less take it personally as you seem to do. The word "impute" comes to mind. Also "attribute". 



> Ditra is not "the same" as other underlayments.


Relative to the mud discussion, yes it is. Unless it's not an "underlayment".



> Please cut the crap.


Sure thing HS4..... :laughing:


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## angus242

CO762 said:


> I just think ditra is a gimmick--


No one cares that you think it's a gimmick. We care when you start posting incorrect information about the product.



CO762 said:


> Then don't read what I write much less take it personally as you seem to do.


Oh how'd I enjoy that. Unfortunately, as long as you spew continual misinformation about Ditra or Kerdi, there will be a group of people that will correct you.


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## CO762

...speaking of the valiant defender....of something....for some reason...

Shouldn't you two be out peddling kerdi/carpet jobs to elderly homeowners or something?


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## angus242

CO762 said:


> ...speaking of the valiant defender....of something....for some reason...
> 
> Shouldn't you two be out peddling kerdi/carpet jobs to elderly homeowners or something?


I always wondered what it's like to be an uninformed internet forum troll...

Thanks for a look into the world of those who are clueless behind a keyboard :thumbsup:


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## Bud Cline

I just don't see how any experienced installer can consider DITRA a gimmick. The concept of uncoupling is a sound one and the same basic concept that makes deck mud substrates work well. 

DITRA offers a waterproofing feature as a bonus if the seams are treated properly. Few other underlayments can make that claim.

DITRA doesn't require the installer to address the seams at all unless a waterproof substrate is the goal. Other underlayments require a special and overly expensive seam tape and special attention when spreading thinset to install the tile. 

I can throw a roll of DITRA over my shoulder and ascend a set of stairs to the second floor of a home and when I get there I have in one action delivered 324 square feet of underlayment to the work site. You can't do that backerboards. 

When installing DITRA around obstacles, I reach into my back pocket and grab my scissors to make the necessary cuts without removing the DITRA from its position on the floor. No dust, no consumption of knife blades, no repeated scoring of hard materials, no crumbles to constantly cleaning up messes.

DITRA comes with the same basic and primary structural prerequisites of all underlayments. The most difficult task for some users seems to be remembering which thinset to use for the installation.

No sir, DITRA is far from a gimmick. DITRA is a boon to the tile installation industry and a bold statement in state of the art tile underlayments.

I like it!:clap:


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## angus242

Oh Bud, you could have saved your breath (or keyboard strokes )

The troll doesn't listen.


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## Bud Cline

> The troll doesn't listen.


"The troll" may not be listening but thousands of other more meaningfull people are listening and they deserve the truth from the trenches not nay-saying from the inexperienced.

I can also do an ad for KERDI if the troll is interested.:thumbup:


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## hardscrabble

Since I am not a full time tile mechanic, I myself haven't used Ditra but I would for basement or moisture areas in the future. Seems to be an excellent choice. I have used lots of Hardie though. One thing I like about the Hardie is it seems to stiffin up the subfloor. And the Ditra would be excellent on concrete that has cracks in it.


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## PrecisionFloors

CO762 said:


> I just think ditra is a gimmick--


Then you don't think at all. Or bother to inform yourself prior to making a conclusion.

Riddle me this then. Name another tile underlayment that is waterproof, uncouples, and is warrantied over single layer osb over tjis on 19.2 centers :whistling

I'll wait.


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## PrecisionFloors

hardscrabble said:


> Since I am not a full time tile mechanic, I myself haven't used Ditra but I would for basement or moisture areas in the future. Seems to be an excellent choice. I have used lots of Hardie though. *One thing I like about the Hardie is it seems to stiffin up the subfloor.* And the Ditra would be excellent on concrete that has cracks in it.




Seems and does are two different things Kemosabe :no:

CBUs offer nothing in the way of structural support or deflection enhancement.


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## angus242

Bud Cline said:


> "The troll" may not be listening but thousands of other more meaningfull people are listening and they deserve the truth from the trenches not nay-saying from the inexperienced.
> 
> I can also do an ad for KERDI if the troll is interested.:thumbup:


As for the same reason I've been engaging this troll. But like a gnat, he keeps coming back.


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## hardscrabble

PrecisionFloors said:


> Seems and does are two different things Kemosabe :no:
> 
> CBUs offer nothing in the way of structural support or deflection enhancement.


Well, I'm sure not gonna argue with you on that point as I am aware there is no deflection rating on Hardie. And I for sure wasn't referring to joist deflection. Just a little non stiffening and creaking between the joists and ply. of course that could be the weight of materials and nails I put in too. 

What about Hardie with Ditra over it? I have seen this and thought it was redundant. 

And whats that Ditra cost for a roll$ because I am going to give it a try next time.


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## Bud Cline

It's worth noting:

As mentioned, backerboards offer no benefits to structural behavior or deflection while at the same time there is a small undertow of experienced installers that believe some minor improvements may exist after the backerboard installation even though there is no scientific conclusion to that assumption.

I (for one) have seen sub floors that squeaked, have the squeaks diminish after the application of cement boards. This doesn't offer proof of anything, it is merely an observation I and others have noted from time to time on various forums such as this.

There is really no point in installing Hardi and then installing DITRA over it other than to gain an advantage in elevation for some reason. If increasing the elevation is the reason then plywood would be a lot less expensive.

DITRA prices seem to vary considerably for some reason but my last three rolls cost about $435.00 each.


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## ChrWright

I think this discussion has run its course.


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