# Tolerable wood moisture levels?



## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

rrk said:


> Servepro will place a few $1000 a day dehumidifiers in the house, and may recommend all drywall and insulation be removed.


I don't know how to stop these people. 

Explaining Zero Risk Bias to the HO won't work. And if the problem goes away, it might well have gone away on it's own, but 
"Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: "after this, therefore because of this") is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) that states "Since event Y *[problem gone]* followed event X [*Servpro came*] , event Y must have been caused by event X."


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I'll be there on Monday when doing the tests to find out what's going on. Homeowners called them for some reason. Roof was in such bad shape that homeowners insurance made them replace it.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

BamBamm5144 said:


> They are having servpro come out to do a moisture test next week.


AKA gives it some time to dry out and moisture to disperse. Seems like a prudent thing to do, in this case. 

1. Plaster absorbs water/moisture with minimal damage, compared to drywall. It's a 'cement'. 

2. Water especially over time can cause the wood lath to loosen. To the framing and physical bond to plaster caused by swelling.

3. Short term water loading tends to expose weaknesses that have developed over time. This case 100 years of a house living and breathing - moving expanding contracting.

Compared to drywall a water leak like this is 'generally' not anything I'd worry much about. Worse case is demo the plaster and hang new drywall, or skim plaster over blue board. A few thousand out of pocket or a possibly a few thousand in increased premiums.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Dave in Pa said:


> So, why Is Servpro coming out next week?


Some companies will wait to come out, hoping mold will grow - then they get to do remediation. I saw one company say they were going to send all kinds of people right away after a fire, then do basically nothing. Foot dragging can bump the size of the job. They got fired.

I can look at the top side of probably any old plaster ceiling in this area and see where mold grew on it at some point without a roof leak...


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Texas Wax said:


> Compared to drywall a water leak like this is 'generally' not anything I'd worry much about. Worse case is demo the plaster and hang new drywall, or skim plaster over blue board. A few thousand out of pocket or a possibly a few thousand in increased premiums.


I've done that for a lot less than a few thousand - closer to a few hundred. From what he described, I'd guess it's maybe an 8X8' area, but you never know until you evaluate the plaster.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

The water came in directly over the bucket, no where else.

The issue is the entire ceiling has been in need of repair/replacement and there have obviously been moisture issues before we ever snowed up as you can see by the old discoloration. 

I don't know how it would be possible for that little amount of water to cause thousands worth in damages.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

They are on the take . they have a rough old ceilings and want to turn this into new ones.

There is no compromise of the structure, that' s ridiculous .

I hate you are dealing with this, its wrong.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

It's not a big deal, I'm not concerned. The homeowners as I've mentioned have been reasonable. I believe if they didn't contact their insurance company first, they wouldn't be concerned about it at all.


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## AGullion (Apr 19, 2015)

Good deal...and that's a good rule for handling complaints..its no big deal ...no matter what it is , you have skill, tools and insurance . 

I feel like a lot of t.v. shows ,etc arm customers a little too dangerously these days . Good Luck and don't stress...I have a roof , the entire roof , off a house right now .


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

BamBamm5144 said:


> The water came in directly over the bucket, no where else.
> 
> The issue is the entire ceiling has been in need of repair/replacement and there have obviously been moisture issues before we ever snowed up as you can see by the old discoloration.
> 
> I don't know how it would be possible for that little amount of water to cause thousands worth in damages.


I worked for one of those restoration companies for awhile. Not sure if what they told me was true or they gave me the same information to ensure I didn't tell the home owner what was really going on.

So take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. I have reasons to do so.

Anyways, what they said was that the insulation would absorb water and what water leaked through the ceiling would only be a small amount of the real amount of water up there.

I don't know if it's true but all I know is that I handled a ton of wet insulation in places that only had a small leak visible.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

House is a little over 100 years old, I'm not too sure how much "insulation" there would be.

I do know that if those guys find something, I will have to involve my liability insurance and I'm sure my liability insurance won't find anything. There's nothing really to find.


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

BamBamm5144 said:


> House is a little over 100 years old, I'm not too sure how much "insulation" there would be.
> 
> I do know that if those guys find something, I will have to involve my liability insurance and I'm sure my liability insurance won't find anything. There's nothing really to find.


You know how many times I've heard that? The response usually was we have to tear some out in order to make sure.


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

BucketofSteam said:


> the insulation would absorb water and what water leaked through the ceiling would only be a small amount of the real amount of water up there.


Sounds reasonable. 
Making small ceiling holes to probe the insul with a meter in a radius around the leak hole may confirm or disprove this.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

hdavis said:


> I've done that for a lot less than a few thousand - closer to a few hundred. From what he described, I'd guess it's maybe an 8X8' area, but you never know until you evaluate the plaster.




Sure you can 'Patch it for a couple hundred .... bet good money the plaster ain't solid enough far far away from that 8x8 area for a true repair. Chased a lot of loose plaster up in Bamm's area ... Has all the red flags the entire ceiling needs to be suspect, think worse case, until you can know for sure.


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## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

BamBamm5144 said:


> House is a little over 100 years old, I'm not too sure how much "insulation" there would be.


I'd be more worried about hardwood floors buckling on the floor above than insulation ... if there is typical flooring above on the second floor.


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## Dave in Pa (Oct 10, 2009)

Texas Wax said:


> I'd be more worried about hardwood floors buckling on the floor above than insulation ... if there is typical flooring above on the second floor.


GOOD point, I missed that on the first time here, but it was stated that there is a second floor. So if the roof was the issue to cause the leak, then water flows down-hill in most cases. Was the second floor damaged, or show anything???? 

As stated, in 100 year old house, the chance of insulation is slim to nothing, BUT look for the drill holes inside and outside for blown-in insulation. 

Keep us up to date please!


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

My experience is that ServePro and the like are expensive (all that overhead) but reasonable, not spreading panic or fear about mold, structural problems, or any of that.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> My experience is that ServePro and the like are expensive (all that overhead) but reasonable, not spreading panic or fear about mold, structural problems, or any of that.


Are they franchised or a national company? The ones I have seen working here are terrible. In one instance they informed homeowner toxic waste water was leaking when in fact it was fresh water from the Lav supply.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

rrk said:


> Are they franchised or a national company? The ones I have seen working here are terrible. In one instance they informed homeowner toxic waste water was leaking when in fact it was fresh water from the Lav supply.


I think that ServPro and ServiceMaster, both of whom are present here, are franchise deals. I'm sure that some of them will escalate if they can, and it probably makes sense to be present when they do their diagnosis. My experience has been fine.


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## Dave in Pa (Oct 10, 2009)

I work for a National franchise, restoration company, LOCAL owner, who is NOT afraid to give his personal cell number out!

And NO I don't work for any of the above companies! lol
(can not/nor say anything bad!)

THEY are not all the same from location to location! 

We have 8 cars/trucks on the road 5 days a week, then more on the week-end.
We are trained in mold, water, sewage, etc. cost there!
We are on call 24/7 INCLUDING holidays, ever go out on Christmas Day for work.
We have a million dollars worth of equipment to work with and maintain, do you?
We leave work at 4pm, get called out at 5pm, work till 2am do you? and be back to 
work at 7am. 
Things are not cheap to operate as WE ALL KNOW!! 

Some companies are good, some are BAD, so just please don't put all in the same list here!

I do love my work, some days are a slice of pie, some are full of chit!! 

Sorry just needed to give my opinion here!


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Dave in Pa said:


> I work for a National franchise, restoration company, LOCAL owner, who is NOT afraid to give his personal cell number out!
> ... etc....


Another good reminder of the diversity of people and businesses represented here on C.T.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

There is a second story, the water entered because of an improperly installed step flashing along a porch.

As said, it was one rain storm and only enough water got through to allow roughly 1/4" to fill up into that bucket. No water came into the house anywhere else except over the buckets on top of the fridge.

My only concern is that if you look close enough, on the far left there are old water stains that were there long before we came along.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Get it in writing to the owner that you are going to repair any issues that are your fault, and find a tactful, non-defensive way to point out that there is evidence of previous water infiltration: "Please let us know when *** Restoration Co. will be there, so that we can evaluate separately any effects from the water let in by our faulty step flashing, and the effects from the prior water infiltration that caused the yellow stains." Or something like that.

If this just happened the once, you may not have that much to worry about - it gets dried up, sheetrock repair and some painting. I would insist on having the opportunity to do the repair or contract it, so the restoration company's bid has some price competition.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> My experience is that ServePro and the like are expensive (all that overhead) but reasonable, not spreading panic or fear about mold, structural problems, or any of that.


I can counter balance that from experience...


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

hdavis said:


> I can counter balance that from experience...


same here


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

It's all controlled by the franchisee. Once it's torn out, there's no evidence left, and the tear out and repair bill goes up. Double motivation for over doing things.


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

hdavis said:


> It's all controlled by the franchisee. Once it's torn out, there's no evidence left, and the tear out and repair bill goes up. Double motivation for over doing things.


I worked for one of those restoration companies for a while like I said earlier.

All I'm going to say is that I'm glad I'm not there anymore.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

hdavis said:


> It's all controlled by the franchisee. Once it's torn out, there's no evidence left, and the tear out and repair bill goes up. Double motivation for over doing things.


And scaring the homeowners to death


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I won't mention the lead paint test that came up positive on trim installed and painted less than a year earlier...


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

So it turns out their is an AC unit up above where the leak happened that had pooling water. 

They had a condensation house that ran out the siding onto the roof. We removed three layers (one cedar) resheathed the roof deck and installed new shingles.

Our friends at servpro want to remove an 8x8 area, another few areas and do their work from there.

This is from a condensation hose that ran a few times in the past two weeks. I don't see how any damage can be that extensive. I'll be contacting my liability insurance company to get a second opinion.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I'll be contacting my liability insurance company to get a second opinion.


I agree - it seems an over zealous tear out.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

How is this your problem now? Doesn't seem to be the roof leaking.


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

BamBamm5144 said:


> So it turns out their is an AC unit up above where the leak happened that had pooling water.
> 
> They had a condensation house that ran out the siding onto the roof. We removed three layers (one cedar) resheathed the roof deck and installed new shingles.
> 
> ...


So they want to remove shingles? or drywall?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Drywall, plaster.


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Drywall, plaster.


My best guess is that they want to error on the side of caution. Sure they could tear less out but in the future if something did happen for whatever reason it's their reputation and necks on the line.

But like I said before take what I say with a grain of salt. Most of what I'm saying is what I gleaned overhearing my bosses talking.


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## 1985gt (Dec 10, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> So it turns out their is an AC unit up above where the leak happened that had pooling water.
> 
> They had a condensation house that ran out the siding onto the roof. We removed three layers (one cedar) resheathed the roof deck and installed new shingles.
> 
> ...





Leo G said:


> How is this your problem now? Doesn't seem to be the roof leaking.


Yeah if it's a condensation hose how are you still involved?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I'm no longer involved. I let my liability company know the situation, they will be investigating the situation and handling it from there.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

BucketofSteam said:


> I worked for one of those restoration companies for a while like I said earlier.
> 
> All I'm going to say is that I'm glad I'm not there anymore.





rrk said:


> And scaring the homeowners to death





hdavis said:


> I won't mention the lead paint test that came up positive on trim installed and painted less than a year earlier...


Seems as if I've been lucky.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Crew removed or moved the hose, maybe, would be a reason for the insurance company to look at it.


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## BucketofSteam (Jun 16, 2013)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Seems as if I've been lucky.


Np, it's just what happens when you have a franchised business. Right off the bat it's a six figure sum just to start up, I don't know if the drying equipment is included in that cost or that's separate but either way most of those machines start at $500 and go up to $2000.

Then there's all the other costs of running a business, not to mention that it's emergency services, unsure about how the insurance works down there but up here once a claim goes into the insurance company they have a list of vendors able to handle it.

Unless it was a sob story told to keep me in line once you're alerted to a claim you have a limited amount of time to accept it, not to mention becoming a preferred vendor is hard to do.

Then there's the reputation, if you do a job and something happens later on down the road, it could hurt you.

Add all that onto the wrong person and they'll start to crack, start to cut the same corners as everyone else, even though their entire crew is extremely uncomfortable with doing it.


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