# Proper way to lay shingles



## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Is anyone still making organics? 

Newb factor for doing it right, and not having to go remedy searching? Whatevah.

We see it the opposite around here...the rackers are the ones that cannot get it right.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Anyways, last organic roofing manufacturer I know of is the Certainteed Sealdon 25's and there only available in two states and I want to say Illinois and Indiana, but I read that last year so they may have stopped production by now.

In MN the Sealdons are good for 15 years on average before they start curling and pitting.

Doubt there are many roofers operating as a one man show stair stepping three tabbers 40-50 roofs a year.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

dougger222 said:


> Doubt there are many roofers operating as a one man show stair stepping three tabbers 40-50 roofs a year.


Why is that?


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Let the truth be told here for a minute.

There are good roofers and bad roofers. There are roofers who use nail guns who don't know what there doing and there are roofers with staple guns that don't know what there doing. There are roofers who stair step who don't know what there doing and there are roofers who rack who don't know what there doing. There are also roofers who don't know were to properly place a fastener in a shingle.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

AaronB. said:


> Why is that?



Proficiency.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

I think I said in a previous post that I only do about 5-8 roofs a year now with three tabs. 90% of my jobs are loaded with Landmarks.

Every tear off bid I give is with Landmark 30's as a base shingle and 40's, 50's, and TL as upgrades. If a home owner asks for a bid with 3-tabs I tell them I don't lay them on residential tear offs. I've got a cheap builder who's framers put Certainteed XT 30's on the roof so my only option is to lay them down.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

It isn't funny when the guy stair stepping is at home having a beer when you are still racking your shingles.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

dougger222 said:


> Doubt there are many roofers operating as a one man show stair stepping three tabbers 40-50 roofs a year.


Dad and I work about 6 hours a day. We do about 2000 sq. a year. 40-50 roofs isn't hard. That's only one a week. Not bad though. I have seen guys take days doing residential roofs.

Believe me stair stepping is much, much faster. We did 20 sq. the other day in 3 hours. We weren't even moving that fast. It was a 7/12 pitch two 20 ft. valleys on the big dormer. Plus another 3 square with flashing up a wall. It would be tough to do that racking. BTW, we put the guns to the ground and it started raining. Good thing we got done or we would have gotten wet.


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

In the 20 years or so i have been roofing i have never had a problem racking - The only problems i have had with striping is when the manufacturer or distributer sends out shingles of a different shade.

One roof we did 30 year timberline stepped about 4 or 5 bundles out of 46 sq were faded or a shade different. instead of striped they were diagonal stripes. Gaf reimbersed me labor materials profit and overhead for entire job. I know their rep well. Quality products quality service.

To Any, I would like to see you keep the slots strait on a 40 ft run and 20 ft rise stepping no lines on a 10/12 pitch with 2 dormers on the front. Not only strait with BOTH gables - but no Cocked slots either. I do believe it can be done if you are good enough. 

i have stepped them before and could and would not ever trust the factory 6 inch marker slit. They may have looked strait to the untrained eye but i could definately tell there were a few cocked ones. Unlike the line method.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

It is tough for anyone to keep them perfectly straight. It is not the installer, but the shingles. Some are dryer or newer than others and they dry to their size at different rates. The note on the bag says + or - 1/16". You do the math. It is easy to get the shingles a little off no matter what method. I'm glad to see 3 tabs on their way out. They just don't look as good as multi-layer shingles.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

MJW said:


> Dad and I work about 6 hours a day. We do about 2000 sq. a year. 40-50 roofs isn't hard. That's only one a week. Not bad though. I have seen guys take days doing residential roofs.
> 
> Believe me stair stepping is much, much faster. We did 20 sq. the other day in 3 hours. We weren't even moving that fast. It was a 7/12 pitch two 20 ft. valleys on the big dormer. Plus another 3 square with flashing up a wall. It would be tough to do that racking. BTW, we put the guns to the ground and it started raining. Good thing we got done or we would have gotten wet.



My Dad and I, are they one person? I'm talking about a one person show here not Mom and Dad. 

The fastest one person show I know (he won't hire a laborer) is 90 homes a year in Minnesota, all three tabs are racked and full tabs stair stepped. His quality is not the greatest in the world but after 20 years he's still plugging away.

You want to talk speed? Personal best racking with a shingle tosser on a 6/12 papered in 9 sq in an hour and straight. Fathers best in a day with a bundler not a shingle tosser was 48 sq's racking of course. My personal best with racking is a 30 sq house start to fishing one day with a laborer who didn't lay one shingle. I'm sure in five years if I stair stepped three tabs I'd have something to brag about too, but I won't. Back when all I did was three tabs I could do 3 roofs in 6 days, 6/12 33sq houses, by myself.

The only time stepping would be faster than racking is when you wouldn't have to run a bunch of shingles to the left if your right handed and could just run up a valley.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Try to stairstep a three bundle high run on the front of a house with long valleys on both sides, and make it look as straight as snapping two lines right above the front door.

Several years ago my father starting putting on Sealdon 20's on a new house and found the ends had no notches for eyelines. He called the builder to ask if he should order new shingles. The builder said, "It needs to be roofed ASAP, let'em buck". The finished product looked bad, testament that you can't even trust the ends of the shingles let alone the notches!!!


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

When my father and I work together we usually put in 12 hours a day in the summer on the roof, he's 49, I'm 26. He can tear off right next to me and shingle about as fast but he's getting a little slower with age.

Growing up I remember Dad leaving for work at sunrise and getting home just after dark 6 days a week year after year. He's roofed literally thousands and thousands of roofs over the past 30+ years.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Well of course you cannot trust the notches, that why I find two or three bundles with the same notches and cut those into starts and use them only for the starts. 

I must add that even when stairstepping, to go around dormers, I do snap two lines down the roof between my upper and lower section for quality and aesthetic purposes, so line are not completely absent, but not every course or fourth course or whatever.


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## RooferJim (Mar 6, 2006)

we almost never see three tabs installed anymore, but vertical racking them was the predominate way back ten or so years ago, I have done both six one half dozen the other, with Jets or Arch. we would step we three tabs and now a-days when we install a Hatteras job its racked and its done fast and well.

RooferJim

www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Why have a laborer that can't shingle? It's a waste of time. 12 hour days of actual hard working, I doubt it. 12 hour days, I could do 5 houses a week. 
I already stated an example of speed. Dad did 187 houses in one year. 22 square or so per house. That was by himself. 
Why take 12 hours to do a job, when you can be done in 6-8 with a good method? 
I'm not trying to change anyone, because everyone here obviously doesn't have trouble making money. I'm just saying that my method is more advanced and much faster.

The picture shown doesn't even show bundles laid out. He does one at a time. Very time consuming without a laborer. I plan on taking more pictures in the future here, because I didn't know so many roofers did things differently. Hopefully we can help eachother out on different things. This is what forums are for.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

12 hours a day on the roof? Is that hard to believe? Most of my summer days are around that. I like a laborer to bring me all my shingles so all I have to do is grab them and put them down.

With an ok bundler I put down an easy 30sq's a day on 8/12's.

If your in MN why don't I call you next time I've got a roof to do in your area so you can see a real 12 hour day and what happens in that day?


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

MJW said:


> Why have a laborer that can't shingle? It's a waste of time. 12 hour days of actual hard working, I doubt it. 12 hour days, I could do 5 houses a week.
> I already stated an example of speed. Dad did 187 houses in one year. 22 square or so per house. That was by himself.
> Why take 12 hours to do a job, when you can be done in 6-8 with a good method?
> I'm not trying to change anyone, because everyone here obviously doesn't have trouble making money. I'm just saying that my method is more advanced and much faster.
> ...



My father has trained in many hand fulls of roofers who have gone on there to make serious money. 

Here is how I run a gable piece of roof with 3 tabs.

I put on the metal on the eaves two rows of i/w then felt with 15 lb. Next the drip edge goes on the rakes and two lines are snapped at 29.5 and 35.5 I set roof jacks to the left of the farthest line about a foot away and put my shingles six inches from the farthest line and feather the shingles to wards me. My first shingle is upside down of course fallowed by the first shingle on the right line, the lead is run up. I take my jacks and put them in the middle of the row I just ran and run up the left. The jacks are in the right spot now for me to start running to the right. Move jacks set with shingles lay them down over and over and over. The way just described is how every roofer I know (25+) does it.

But do whatever works for you by all means.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

sounds good, we could make some serious money with two good roofers. No job should really take 12 hours though, unless it is bigger than 30 square tear off.
I've got a few 60+ square tear offs coming up this summer. I'll PM you and see if your interested. I wouldn't mind trying to learn a few things I may not know.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

MJW said:


> Why have a laborer that can't shingle? It's a waste of time. 12 hour days of actual hard working, I doubt it. 12 hour days, I could do 5 houses a week.
> I already stated an example of speed. Dad did 187 houses in one year. 22 square or so per house. That was by himself.
> Why take 12 hours to do a job, when you can be done in 6-8 with a good method?
> I'm not trying to change anyone, because everyone here obviously doesn't have trouble making money. I'm just saying that my method is more advanced and much faster.
> ...


You can roof a house in 6-8 hours from start to finish by yourself? How big 15 sq's?

I recall working as a laborer for my father going back 10+ years and putting in 60+ hour weeks all summer long. His longest streak without a day off is 42 days, mine is only 17 days.

If your in MN why don't you give me an address to your next roof so I can see in person how you shingle?

I'll do the same, always doing new roofs in Prior Lake, Lakeville, Hastings, Eagan, Rosemount, Apple Valley, Burnsville, New Market, Montgomery, and Lonsdale (South Metro). Have a dozen or so tear offs sold all around the Twin Cities too. Send me a PM if you want to stop out at one of my jobs.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

No roof jacks for us. We use a 2x4 tacked to the bottom few rows and that's it, unless it is 12/12. Most of the time now, we use our lift and work platform to start the bottoms if it fits in the yard. Saves hours worth of work.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Are you licensed bonded and fully insured as a roofer? If so we could swap work back and forth when slow.

My family is full of roofers most are only doing new stuff and really slow. Five years ago I decided to get licensed and it payed off big time! Advertise in the Yellow Book in South Metro now, did in Mankato area, and this summer will have adds in Twin Cities and East of the cities. Should be interesting to see how many calls will come in this year. 

With 3 roofers 12 hours should get a 30 sq tear off done in a day. In the next 3 months I'd like to get a bunch of tear offs done, ones that have been sold for 2+ years.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Licensed and insured GC. Bonding comes with the license and fee of course. We did alot of roofs and still are. Kind of getting into siding, windows, and remodeling. Easier work and better money. Never advertised, just used referrals. I don't care for new houses, because they want them done so cheap and their way only. Then they whine later when there is a problem and it was all because of their wacky ways.
I'm also your age (27) and Dad is 53. Anything further should probably be PM'ed because it is getting off topic.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

A lift would be nice but not something to use on most residential tear offs. My friend has cleaned up my last two tear offs with his skid loader which was really nice. The two main framers I work with let me sit in there basket which is really nice doing bay windows and ledges and stuff.

Other than roof jacks I see roofers using those clamp things. I'll put a tow board with shingle tins on the bottom of 8/12's all the way around and were I start on roofs as low as 6/12's with Landmarks so there is a place for the cut shingles to sit. I run my Landmarks a little different than most roofers but most who have seen me do it start doing it after a few roofs. Here's what I found best for less upside down cutting.

Start with a full shingle on the edge next take three shingles cut 6in off the first 12in off the second and the third cut in half, make sure you cut were it's not double to save on your blade. Keep an eye on the shingles to make sure there straight and nail them down flush to the bleeder shingle if you use them. After running up the four shingles run in the four next to them then start over again with another full shingle on the rake. This method works good since you don't have to cut into the double part of the shingles and you don't have to snap a line or cut upside down ever or cut the same shingle more than twice (if used on the other end). The pieces you cut will now work on the other end when it's time to fill in. Been doing it this way for a couple years now and all rows are very straight from one end to the other. In the summer I usually only chaulk lines for valley cuts.


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

Just so everyone knows the picture i posted is a 9/12 pitch - The guy you see shingling is the main shingler on this crew. He has 3 more guys with him they are ahead of him tearing off, preping, running bottoms, jacking, and loading the roof. this guy may tear off a little in the morming just for something to do he is good for about 15- 20 sq a day everyday. The house they were on was a 2 layer tear off around 26 sq it was done in a day. 

One more thing i believe in keeping the most experience guys happy. this guy is a great shingler and that is what he likes to do. if the other guys get done with the tear off prep etc.. they then start to shingle. 1 laboreer for 3 shinglers. on New const. 

None of my roofers are even required to clean up i have a separate clean up crew for that. They do however keep their stuff neat and tidy.

I myself very rarely shingle anymore on occaison in the winter when work is slow. (Knees, Back, And Neck)Back in the day my best was about 4 sq in one hour -- best day 24 sq one laboreer 12 hours. After the years i have come to the conclusion 1 sq per hour per guy on average is about right. Most of the shinglers i have worked with always start off bragging how fast they are. speed never really mattered to me. As long as the guys get the job done properly and show up the next day for work i am happy.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

I agree, quality is way more important than speed especially if it's your name and not there's on the roof when it's time for warranty issues if they should arise.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

My best was 26 square, already papered and shingles laid out. I put on all shingles except bottom 4 feet. Had a friend do that(not real quick). I installed all vents and ridge. It was a 5 stall garage, no hips, or valleys. Straight shot two sides. Done in 3&1/2 hours with a beer break half way. It is a friends garage, hence the beer, and not much money. hehe


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## fettycan (Mar 3, 2006)

yeah right


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

fettycan said:


> yeah right


I AGREE THIS STATEMENT 100% :thumbsup:


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

What roofing shingle is this by landmark? It looks sharp.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

fettycan said:


> yeah right


 Why is that not feasible? I had no cutting and no bottoms to do. It was rather easy.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

747 said:


> What roofing shingle is this by landmark? It looks sharp.


Hard to tell, but it would be by Certainteed and a Landmark 50 or TL. Just a guess.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

http://www.certainteed.com/CertainT...sphaltShingles/RoofingLandmarkTLProdindex.htm

There it is. Landmark TL.


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

Dougger Or MJ got a 46 sq 1 layer 7/12 hip i have set up for wednesday $30 off $30 on I will take care of cleanup. I won't hold you guys responsible if you cannot get it done in a day -- would take my 5 man crew 2 but I cannot get them on it til next week if interested let me know.


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

Oh 30 year Timberline goin back on - **** Rapids Area


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Wow! If you can get someone to do that for you for that price, good luck. No offense. I, for one, am Licensed and insured. I'm sure Dougger is also. I'm sure anyone can get close to $60/square for a 7/12 new house. Thanks for the offer though.


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

Not quite sure i understand that - i Do not know anyone paying 50 a sq even on a steep 12/12 new construction. If you can get $60 a sq on new 7/12 i know a couple licensed roofers that will do them for $40 but i am sure $400.00 a day or so for just you doing nothing isn't enough. Actually if you did your own and had some licensed contractors working for you you lay what 25 sq a day = $1500.00 plus you would make $400.00 a day getting another licensed crew to do a job for you $1900.00 a day don't sound to bad. 

What company do you sub for? Or what is the name of your company?
Just looking to make an extra buck - If you have more work than you can handle let me know - I will take all 7/12 pitch new for $40.00 a sq.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

My overhead is 315.00 a day, and Im smalltime. How do you pay the insurance and comp and trucks and phones and advertsing and maintenace and fuel and insuarnace and insurance on 40 a square?


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## minnesotaroofin (Nov 26, 2004)

Aaron, - Sub it out for $25.00-sq under my license - Refer it out to licensed contractor for $35.00-sq - Either way takes but a phone call or two. You forget this is Minnesota there is no such thing as an employee roofer. unless comercial flat work.


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## mattp (Apr 5, 2006)

What is the best way to install cetainteed xt 25 on a ranch style hip roof no valleys or dormers just a straight shot. I would like suggestions on how and were to start on a hip roof. rack or stair step. if stair step do you lay 5 or 6?


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