# Different gauge ground wire question



## Chazbe (Apr 13, 2007)

Hello all,
Ran into this situation in my own house and need some clarification on if it is safe.
My wife was painting my daughters room and goofed and painted over one of the outlets. OK, no problem I'll just swap the outlet, no big deal.
When I removed the outlet from the box the wiring is all 14/2 w ground but the ground was pigtailed with either 16 or 18 and that was run to the green outlet screw.
So I checked the other outlets in the room and they were all done in that fashion. The pigtail connection was done with a Buchannon crimp connector and is solid. The house was built in 1972.
Was this a common practice? Is it safe? 
Anytime I have ever a pigtail I have always used the same size wire as the rest of the wire in the circuit, never seen anything like this.
Thanks,
Chuck


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

It's common. I see it it all the time in older houses. Sometimes they even bonded the box on the outside of the box where it isn't accessible. If u choose to upgrade the grounding pigtail it would be safer.

It should also be mentioned the size of the equipment grounding conductor depends on the size of circuit breaker or fuse, not the size of the conductors supplying the device.


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

Wow. They were still doing that in '72?

I have only seen in in mid to late 60's wiring out here.

It's fine. Don't lose any sleep over it.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

That was "legal" up until 1967, but it's hard to say when the code was actually adopted (if codes were even in effect) in your area. No big deal. Common through the 60's. Called "reduced ground".


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Lets remember that "x" gauge wire can carry a much heavier load for 3 seconds than 3 minutes. That is the "logic" behind this sort of "reduced ground". It is not expected that this wire will carry a load for an length of time.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I think it was discovered in the field that it was too fragile. Actually, I have no idea, but that's what I've heard. Joe Tedesco might know why the change to a full size ground. Might want to PM or Email him for the real scoop.


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

Hey mdshunk,
What kind of vehicle is that in the background of your photo? Just curious, I always notice things like that.
I tried to send you a private email with this question but I received this notice instead:
"mdshunk has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space."
Thanks,
Steve


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I have no idea. That's not even me in the pic. I just thought a picture of an Amish person for an electrician's avatar would be funny. I'm at least twice as ugly as that bearded guy in the picture.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Of course it is not you!!!! The Amish have no need for the Internet. Never mind electricity!!!!!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

MALCO.New.York said:


> Of course it is not you!!!! The Amish have no need for the Internet. Never mind electricity!!!!!


Don't bet on it. I live in a community heavily populated by the Amish. They fill up the public library's Internet computers during every minute the library is open, practically. I saw two Amish girls get out of their buggy and walk into a tanning salon the other day. They use all the same stuff we do, but they're just sneaky about it. It's almost comical to see the pains they go through before they'll slip into a liquor store. Almost like they're being followed by the FBI or something the way they're looking around. People are people. Some sin is just more obvious than others.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Holy, and I do mean Holy, corruption!!!!!! Bastardization. Modernization. Poserization!!!! 

In West Grove/Jennersville, there are Buggy parking spots still being built in new construction. But none ever being used. 

I guess Woody Harrelson really screwed thing up............


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

Alright mdshunk,
I'll admit it. I was just trying to age you by the vehicle in the photo and it turns out that it's some Amish dude instead! I, like many others on this site, wants to know how a 98 year old would even know how to use the internet, much less turn it on?
Steve


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

MD did you ever notice how when your the electrician on the job and there are amish carpenters on the job, they always ask the electrician about when and where the temporary power is, guess thats so they can burrow a saw:laughing: and use it ,wonder how many have generators in their basements?.

Back to the reduced ground wire, Had a bran new electrical inspector come out after his 2 day pcca course and test( with no experience as an electrician), mind you he is the building , plumbing & mechanical inspector too , the bco for the township says I have to use him(at least till alleghney inspections decision from the pa supreme court comes back) any way I twisted 4 reduced grounds and put them in the lug,the lug is rated for 1 # 14 as the smallest wire ,If I had put 1 reduced ground probably #16 or 18 and pulled it twice it would of fell out.After explaining this he passed it.

I am curious are the townships where you live making you use their appointed inspector for residential service revamps, the act 45 says you dont need an permit or inspection for non structural changes or repairs to a residence so its the power co requiring the inspection you can use anyone they reconize, unless there was an ordiance prior to the ucc or an ammendment filed with l&i . LOTS of places are enforceing this incorrectly


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## EricTheHandyman (Jan 29, 2008)

cmec said:


> MD did you ever notice how when your the electrician on the job and there are amish carpenters on the job, they always ask the electrician about when and where the temporary power is, guess thats so they can burrow a saw:laughing: and use it ,wonder how many have generators in their basements?.


One of the funniest things I ever saw: I used to work at a hardware store. One day, an Amish guy walks in, buys a circular saw & extension cord, walks out, gets into his pickup truck, and drives away. Maybe an imposter?


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

Sure he wasnt a mennoite:smartass:


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> I saw two Amish girls get out of their buggy and walk into a tanning salon the other day.


THAT is freaking funny.


I found this today. Early 60's with stock #16 ground wire run separately.


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## Chazbe (Apr 13, 2007)

Hey all,
Thanks for the responses. I am glad its a safe situation. For the life of me I cant figure out why it would be done that way. Seems like a pain in the but to have to tuck some different sized wire in the belt rather than using leftover from the rough in but i guess thats just me.
Thanks again,
Chuck


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

cmec said:


> I am curious are the townships where you live making you use their appointed inspector for residential service revamps, the act 45 says you dont need an permit or inspection for non structural changes or repairs to a residence so its the power co requiring the inspection you can use anyone they reconize, unless there was an ordiance prior to the ucc or an ammendment filed with l&i . LOTS of places are enforceing this incorrectly


Nope, we can use whoever. Generally, we call a certain guy directly on his cell, even though he's an employee of a 3rd party agency. We have most everything inspected anyhow... that is to say, everything that requires an inspection gets inspected, and much of what doesn't require an inspection we get inspected anyhow as CYA.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

mdshunk said:


> Nope, we can use whoever. Generally, we call a certain guy directly on his cell, even though he's an employee of a 3rd party agency. We have most everything inspected anyhow... that is to say, everything that requires an inspection gets inspected, and much of what doesn't require an inspection we get inspected anyhow as CYA.


X2 for here, i have the jobs inspected too for CYA. I sleep better at night knowing two sets of eyes saw the work.


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> Nope, we can use whoever. Generally, we call a certain guy directly on his cell, even though he's an employee of a 3rd party agency. We have most everything inspected anyhow... that is to say, everything that requires an inspection gets inspected, and much of what doesn't require an inspection we get inspected anyhow as CYA.


Hi MD 
WHERE I live there are some townships that make you use their appointed 3 rd party inspector who is not an employee of the township generally the employees of the township are only certified to do residential inspections not commercial or plan revue.The prices very high compaired to what I paid before act 45.

Anyway in the lawsuit ,allegheny inspection service and steel city inspection service vs north union township the wording in the law says nothing in this act shall prohibit an inspector in good standing from working in any municapality, The commonwealth court ruled for allegheny it will be intrersting to see what the supreme court of pa dose with it. if you ever met max summerville he kinda looks like the guy in your avatar with no beard and a corn cob pipe, he use to work for commmenwealth inspection service before he started allegheny. I hope he wins and sues all thease municapalities who locked him out.


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

You know,
I really thought that I was finally gonna lure an answer out of mdshank about his age posted on his profile (98 yrs) . But, par for the course he has remained silent. It will take someone more clever than me, obviously.
Steve


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

stp57 said:


> You know,
> I really thought that I was finally gonna lure an answer out of mdshank about his age posted on his profile (98 yrs) . But, par for the course he has remained silent. It will take someone more clever than me, obviously.
> Steve


Hint...Hint 

Think “Plumber” and “Urban Legend” :whistling


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## cmec (Nov 3, 2007)

I guess 35


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## stp57 (Dec 12, 2007)

Nah, the guy knows way too much. I say 52.
Steve


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I'm exactly as old as mahlere, within a couple weeks. That's all you're gonna get out of me.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Don't let MD fool ya, he's got a pic posted on another site and is much cuter than that furry amish guy.
If I had to guess his age, I'd say 37?


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## jrclen (Jul 10, 2007)

Sparky Joe said:


> Don't let MD fool ya, he's got a pic posted on another site and is much cuter than that furry amish guy.
> If I had to guess his age, I'd say 37?


You think that's him Joe? It looks an awful lot like the Amish guy with the beard shaved off. :laughing:


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> he's got a pic posted on another site and is much cuter than that furry amish guy.


That's his high school graduation picture :laughing:


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