# Who is still using felt?



## J-Peffer (Mar 3, 2007)

From what I understand felt or underlayment was orginally used simply as a way to "dry" a roof in and eventually became part of the roofing system.

No.15 felt will not keep much water from penetrating a roof deck, but if a little does get through the shingles, it will prevent it.

Honestly any area that there is a chance of ice or water getting through because of wind driven rain, or ice build up should really have something more than no.15 or 30 felt. 

Most code will let you double No.30 instead of ice and water even.

Out in the open roof, with just water treading, honestly....felt is probably just a precaution and not necassary.

Code or not though, I'd recommend it and I'm sure a customer would be wondering why felt is NOT being used because it's just considered part of the roofing system. Code is BARE minimum requirements, they have code approved houses called "modular" homes that are just awful, yet code approved too.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Maybe we install it because shingles are not waterproof.


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## jstange2 (Oct 25, 2008)

We use the new synthetic underlayments and I have see this on the gaf shingles also.


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## davitk (Oct 3, 2008)

Warren said:


> Maybe we install it because shingles are not waterproof.



They're NOT?? OMG we've been getting lied to all these years.

Next thing you know we'll find out step shingles are not necessary, another one of those redundancies an engineer dreamed up.


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## Inmate 369 (Jul 31, 2009)

felt or underlayment is not required by manufactors or code but if not used over time your shingles will stick to your sheething and show terrible and any buckling in your becking will tear your shingles. Good Luck


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

my code book (2006 IRC) says it is.

(codes in your area may be different)


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## Maine (Sep 2, 2009)

Thanks for the info. I talked with a GC in my neighborhood last night, he confirmed that they are now not using much felt in my area, however, it is a horrible idea.

So felt it is, thanks for the info guys.


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## Inmate 369 (Jul 31, 2009)

Don't get me wrong codes very expecialy when it comes to snow loads (which i know nothing about ) .I ALWAYS use felt paper.


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

So why does the GFCI need to be the first outlet in the circuit in order to work?:whistling You show up here busting everyones balls like it's your party. They try to give you an answer and you want more. Go ahead and knock yourself out and install your roof and save 5 bucks a square:laughing: I wouldn't. A good underlayment is the cheapest insurace your going to get.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

PA woodbutcher said:


> So why does the GFCI need to be the first outlet in the circuit in order to work?


It doesn't. :cheesygri


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

The REAL question is, Who does not use felt.






cheapskate's


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

We don't use felt all the time. We like to use the synthetics like Titanium UDL. Its lighter and tearproof. Not to mention, when its 10 degrees out, felt gets soooo brittle. It does cost about 3 times as much though, but thats for the GC to worry about.


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## NNY (Aug 29, 2009)

We use the felt and Ice and water where needed . We don't get callbacks . That's worth the expense itself . In a perfect world the shingles get the job done . In the contracting world anything can happen and if slapping down some felt can maybe stop a whole host of nightmares from a "little" leak , slap that stuff down . Also , I just can't imagine a homeowner letting you slide on not putting in down .


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## davitk (Oct 3, 2008)

OK this is not a roof but fits the "Felt? We don' need no stinkin' felt!!" catagory. Dumbasses.


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## NNY (Aug 29, 2009)

There you go . You actually see more damage on sidewalls from improper installs . Looks like quite a patch job on the ply .


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

I saw a mesican once felt over shingles then do another layer, I think it was the 4th layer

t's cheap and takes what 30 mins to do 10 sq, I do metal and use radiiant barrier but its basicly the same cheap n easy and make the cusomer happy


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## roofbutcher (Jul 25, 2009)

In some areas it’s code, and some shingle manufacturers’ use it as an excuse to not honor their warrantees.


From a craftsmanship perspective, I like it on old, rough deck to protect the back-side of the shingle from stubble. I have also seen it trap water against plywood and blow it apart. Being confident in my shingling, I prefer not to use it on clean, smooth plywood.


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## MacRoadie (Dec 9, 2007)

Underlayment is required in any area where the IRC has been adopted as the model code. There may be some semantic issue regarding "felt" versus "underlayment" as a lot of areas don't use asphalt impregnated felt anymore.


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## davitk (Oct 3, 2008)

roofbutcher said:


> From a craftsmanship perspective, I like it on old, rough deck to protect the back-side of the shingle from stubble. I have also seen it trap water against plywood and blow it apart. Being confident in my shingling, I prefer not to use it on clean, smooth plywood.



ROFLMAO :laughing:


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## Maine (Sep 2, 2009)

PA woodbutcher said:


> So why does the GFCI need to be the first outlet in the circuit in order to work?:whistling You show up here busting everyones balls like it's your party. They try to give you an answer and you want more. Go ahead and knock yourself out and install your roof and save 5 bucks a square:laughing: I wouldn't. A good underlayment is the cheapest insurace your going to get.


 
I didnt know I was "busting anyones balls", I was simply trying to learn the pros and cons to using felt, is education a problem for you? 

If you would have taken the time to read, you would have seen that I did install the felt.


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## davitk (Oct 3, 2008)

My eighteen year old nephew called me last night, re-doing the roof on his roommates house. 

He wanted to know if it needed new drip edge.

Turns out the house is 100 years old, and still has wood shingles over skip sheathing plus two or three layers asphalt.

I think he needs new drip edge :whistling

And felt.


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## davitk (Oct 3, 2008)

Hey, maybe I should direct him to CT?


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## bob_cntrctr (Jan 30, 2008)

1. It protects the deck from light rain and heavy dew during installation

2. It provides an almost, but not entirely, imperceptible smoothing of the deck which reduces bending of the shingles over edges and, I find, just makes the surface look better

3. It will shed small amounts of driven rain and backed up snow melt that might get behind the shingles

4. It certain not to void your warranty

5. The lines provide a straight-line reference if used right

6. It's cheap.

Why would anyone NOT use it?


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## mattp (Apr 5, 2006)

davitk said:


> It also keeps the roof sheathing from sucking the asphalt from the shingle. Perhaps urban legend, but probably not.


What do you guys think of this thought? If true then I think felt would be alot more important then we think now.


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

mattp said:


> What do you guys think of this thought? If true then I think felt would be alot more important then we think now.


I once patched a barn roof that had sections blown off. In some of these spots they had run out the felt paper and left spots that didn't have any. In these places the shingles were dry and brittle while most of the shingles on the rest of the roof were fairly supple. There was definitely a noticeable difference.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

davitk said:


> It also keeps the roof sheathing from sucking the asphalt from the shingle. Perhaps urban legend, but probably not.





mattp said:


> What do you guys think of this thought? If true then I think felt would be alot more important then we think now.





PA woodbutcher said:


> I once patched a barn roof that had sections blown off. In some of these spots they had run out the felt paper and left spots that didn't have any. In these places the shingles were dry and brittle while most of the shingles on the rest of the roof were fairly supple. There was definitely a noticeable difference.


I believe that is really the main benefit.
I've seen the difference many times.
Sometimes you could even see it
from the ground.


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## MrRoofer (Sep 21, 2008)

I once read saturated asphalt felt was mandatory underlay for fibreglass base shingles so as to meet the fire code rating on said shingles. Otherwise they burn better :devil:. 

But I dont recall where I read it, or I would state that as fact. :laughing:


Regardless, I think felt paper is a good minimum and maximum for underlay...I've seen senile roofs with no granules left on the shingles hold water out because somebody felted the whole thing first. 

You can do without, but only under the right conditions, however no book or regulation is going to tell you that .


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## MacRoadie (Dec 9, 2007)

MrRoofer said:


> You can do without, but only under the right conditions, however no book or regulation is going to tell you that .


Like I said earlier, if you're building to the IRC or IBC, underlayment is mandatory.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

davitk said:


> It also keeps the roof sheathing from sucking the asphalt from the shingle. Perhaps urban legend, but probably not.


You're exactly right. The wood will leach the moisture from the shingle and cause premature hardening which then makes the shingles more brittle.

Felt does not in any way help to keep the roof decking dry. Maybe some condensation properties... but that's really minimal.... Proper ventilation is key, many roofs back in the day that didnt have felt, also lacked proper ventilation... and this is why the roof decking on those homes usually seem so bad off. Lack of ventilation also voids all shingle warranties i've ever seen. Not placing the nails in the proper area, amount of nails, all has to be installed properly or they (manufacturer) can opt not to warranty your claim.

(only good shingling and craftsmanship will keep a roof from leaking.)

Gaf Timberlines are a great shingle... now with the elk merge... i dont know for sure any more. I'm layin some now... they are from the elk plant tho, as i know the feel of a timberline... These arent the timberlines i've laid for over 10 years... not as consistant in weight or cut. I'm a lil disappointed in the merge.

Felt is not optional. Put it down. If you dont the warranty is void, the shingles will not last as long and the next guy tearing it off will think you were a tight ass. You're tearing off a roof now to put a new one on? If the shingles are still laying flat and you're with in code limits for number of layers... why not reroof?


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

where im working we specialize in additions and we generally ice and water the entire roof to ensure its tight until the roofer gets there. 

just wondering is this a bad idea, since my understanding is that the sheathing still needs to breathe per say and since the ice and water seals it completely could we be creating more problems


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## davitk (Oct 3, 2008)

woodworkbykirk said:


> where im working we specialize in additions and we generally ice and water the entire roof to ensure its tight until the roofer gets there.
> 
> just wondering is this a bad idea, since my understanding is that the sheathing still needs to breathe per say and since the ice and water seals it completely could we be creating more problems


I think it is a bad idea. Try a synthetic underlayment, goes down fast and can be left for several months.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I guess they will figure out new ways to cut corners with shingles near 90 bucks a square.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

21gun said:


> Felt does not in any way help to keep the roof decking dry. Maybe some condensation properties... but that's really minimal....


Thought i should expand on that a little bit... i mean concerning penetrations, boots, flashings, vents, ect... you cant count on felt to make up for good shingling. If there is ice backing up, a dead valley or other consideration then you should use Grace Ice and water shield or similar. Wind driven rain same thing. felt is not meant to be waterproof... i.e. there is no warranty or life expectancy of felt. There are holes in felt from manufacturing sometimes. I dont mean perferated felt either. But a good felt job can keep some water out during construction. In the summer i would only felt what i was going to roof that day as some times it shrinks a good bit and pulls thru the staples. I refuse to use cap nails. I drop more than i smack with a hammer.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

woodworkbykirk said:


> where im working we specialize in additions and we generally ice and water the entire roof to ensure its tight until the roofer gets there.
> 
> just wondering is this a bad idea, since my understanding is that the sheathing still needs to breathe per say and since the ice and water seals it completely could we be creating more problems


I have not got any long term proof but i think the H2o shield would not hurt the roof decking or breathability. Think about roofs with 3 and more layers... is the decking really breathing much? I could be wrong here... i have used H2o for low sloped roofs of good size before to ensure the flats lasted as long as the steeper roofs... but really, other than spending good money to cover the whole thing in H20 i see no harm. Some H20 is not meant to be in the elements very long... so check the manufacturers suggestions. the sun can weaken it a bit sounds like.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I guess they will figure out new ways to cut corners with shingles near 90 bucks a square.


No joke! and there is no reason for them to be so high.... you can almost justify putting on a metal roof if you dont use edge trim... i get 40 year paint finished metal for 2.22 a foot. thats like 74 cents a sq foot.... Dimensional shingles are 90 cents a sq foot. The basic price of labor hasnt changed in years... the customers will be hoping to get some off the labor... but wont work with me. If i cant make 500 a day roofing i'll stay home. 400 minumum. that's at 45 a square labor. Do 10 or 15 square and go home...Hurt, grunt, cry, but love the money and go back the next day.


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## MrRoofer (Sep 21, 2008)

MacRoadie said:


> Like I said earlier, if you're building to the IRC or IBC, underlayment is mandatory.


Of course.

However none of that means anything _here. :santa:_


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## MacRoadie (Dec 9, 2007)

MrRoofer said:


> Of course.
> 
> However none of that means anything _here. :santa:_


Quite true.

The OP, however, doesn't live _there_, he lives _here_...:whistling



> The new law creates the Maine Model Building Code ("MMBC"), which is composed of the *International**Residential Code* and *International Building Code*, both of which are part of the *International Codes Council* ("ICC") family of codes. The law does not mandate that any municipality adopt the MMBC, but requires that, if a municipality does voluntarily choose to adopt a new residential or non-residential building code, it must adopt the MMBC. The law allows municipalities the flexibility of adopting only portions of the MMBC and of amending the MMBC locally if it wishes to do so.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

MacRoadie said:


> Quite true.
> 
> The OP, however, doesn't live _there_, he lives _here_...:whistling


Orange County vs. Maine :laughing:


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## MacRoadie (Dec 9, 2007)

Winchester said:


> Orange County vs. Maine :laughing:


America vs. Canuckistan...:thumbup:

We may be almost 3,000 miles apart, but California and Maine use the same building code, just as Alberta and BC do...


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## Maine (Sep 2, 2009)

Okay guys, the job is just about done, and it looks outstanding. I have been busting my @ss for 2 weeks now after work and on the weekend, you roofers earn your money!


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

Glad you think so boss. It was a good livin.... now it's a real killin (my back) But i love it and it has been good by me.

Now just to convince HO's that 6k for a 30 year roof makes better sense than the 50k they spent for a car they'll only keep for 3-4 years.


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

Maine said:


> I didnt know I was "busting anyones balls", I was simply trying to learn the pros and cons to using felt, is education a problem for you?
> 
> If you would have taken the time to read, you would have seen that I did install the felt.


Yes I have a problem educating people who have no intention of hiring someone to do the job and do right, but are in fact posers looking to save a buck.

How's the electrical section sparky? 6 posts and all of them in this thread. You should at least reciprocate and stop by another section of the forum and help someone else out since you have gotten all your questions answered.:jester:


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## Maine (Sep 2, 2009)

I would like to apologize for doing work on my own home, I didnt realize that it was a requirement for me to sub out all of the projects. Get real.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

It's not called "subbing out" work when you aren't a contractor.


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## MrRoofer (Sep 21, 2008)

MacRoadie said:


> America vs. Canuckistan...:thumbup:
> 
> We may be almost 3,000 miles apart, but California and Maine use the same building code, just as Alberta and BC do...


 
_*1 building code to rule them all and in the darkness bind them.*_

:devil2:


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## Maine (Sep 2, 2009)

MJW said:


> It's not called "subbing out" work when you aren't a contractor.


 
Good thing I am a contractor.


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## MrRoofer (Sep 21, 2008)

chancesrurahack said:


> alot of idiotic answers in here.


This person can really prove a point!!!!



AB and BC do not use the same building code, and to do so would be foolish. 

Different climates call for different building standards. Simple as that.


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## MacRoadie (Dec 9, 2007)

MrRoofer said:


> AB and BC do not use the same building code, and to do so would be foolish.


From http://www.bccodes.ca/bccode_building.htm



> The *BC Building Code* is a regulation of the _Local Government Act_ and *is based on the model National Building Code of Canada* 2005 and the model National Plumbing Code of Canada. Building code users are involved in the development of the BCBC and they help determine the content. The 2006 BCBC succeeds the 1998 British Columbia Building Code.


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Building_Code_of_Canada



> By agreement with the National Research Council of Canada, Alberta is committed to using the *National Building Code of Canada as its base document with changes and modifications to suit Alberta needs* in regulating the design, construction, alteration, change of use and demolition of buildings.
> The Alberta Building Code 2006 was established by the Building Technical Council, a technical council of the Safety Codes Council, after consultation with municipal authorities, provincial government departments, associations, other affected parties and Code users. The Code is published for Alberta by the National Research Council of Canada.
> The Alberta Building Code 2006[11] was adopted by provincial regulation on September 2, 2007.[12]
> The Alberta Building Code 2006 is developed and administered by Alberta Municipal Affairs. In addition to the production of the Alberta Building Code, Municipal Affairs is responsible for the development and dissemination of code interpretations and alternatives known as STANDATA, which come in three forms:
> ...


Obviously there are local variations/additions/etc, but they are based on the same code, aren't they? Or is there more than one National Building Code of Canada?

Oh, and we happen to have more than one climate down here too. In fact, since you went down that road, our climate is more varied yet we still manage to use the same model code (with regional accommodation for earthquakes, heat, freezing/snow, hurricanes, tornados, etc) and regardless of whether it's 120 above zero or 50 below, the code calls for underlayment below all roofing materials.​


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## MrRoofer (Sep 21, 2008)

Very good.

There are always revisions to the code, and as time always does tell some things will prove themselves and others will not. My personal viewpoint is that some things are written into the code..._to fail_. There are a lot of reasons for that, for which some people will have to do their own thinking to figure out, but it is for those reasons I cannot put so much reverent faith into 'the code'. Some things require a little more intuitive thinking than can be established on paper.




Put it this way, I wouldn't consider buying anything built within the last twenty years or so. This would happen to coincide with the most coded and legislated period of history ever.



Even an extremely well written code has it's limitations of course. I can think of a total of zero guys working on the roof who are fully up to speed with what is written in there, and to me this represents the largest problem, that is not to say they cannot roof! The guys who are fully up to speed are usually those who are so far removed from the actual physical process of things, it gets lost in the translation anyway, however at that point most are content to string up the little guy swinging the hammer for not knowing any better.




A lot of this is moot considering the OP, but does a lack of underlayment mean the roof is absolutely going to leak or be a problem? No. However I wouldn't reccomend it, especially given my understanding of the OP's situation. It does not take a genious or code to figure that out, but it is amazing to me how so many sensible things cannot be commonly known anymore. There was a time when doing work on your own house was deemed perfectly acceptible and in fact encourageable, judging by some of the responses here I would hazard this is no longer the case. Apparently asking for a little knowledge is a big no no too. It is against code. However I may have misinterpreted what was written, but the code leaves it open for just that.





If we have to think about was is meant to fail within the code, interpret this wonderful piece of wording; _"acceptable alternative solutions to the prescriptive requirements"_ to whatever suits your needs and sell it. :thumbsup:


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## roofbutcher (Jul 25, 2009)

MrRoofer said:


> Very good.
> 
> There are always revisions to the code, and as time always does tell some things will prove themselves and others will not. My personal viewpoint is that some things are written into the code..._to fail_. There are a lot of reasons for that, for which some people will have to do their own thinking to figure out, but it is for those reasons I cannot put so much reverent faith into 'the code'. Some things require a little more intuitive thinking than can be established on paper.
> 
> ...


Outstanding :thumbsup:


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

It depends on what the homeowner can afford doesn't it? 30 pound felt is fine. If they want to drop more money and go synthetic i say titanium udl 30


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

I still use it on the whole roof i might start using ice and water for the first course and valleys but everywhere else i would use felt


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## CSinc. (Nov 7, 2009)

we always use felt.ive never done a job w/out it.i'd have to wonder what a owner{the neighbors too} would say if he seen us installing w/out it.i know it can work w/out but honestly it helps me sleep better knowing its on there.i hate call backs.so anything i can do to lessen the chances of that im all for.of course felt is mostly useless once you poke a few thousand holes through it.i know that and im sure most would agree but try to tell that to an owner or her nosy neighbors and they would probably look at you like youve got lobsters coming out of you ears.


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## RooferJim (Mar 6, 2006)

A contractor that would actually argue the supposed merits or justification of not using felt underlayment is either a blatant hack, somone that learned from a hack, or just a straight up plain ignoranas.

RooferJim
ww.jbennetteroofing.com


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## tcholdren (Jun 27, 2007)

Im really suprised that this thread has been going for awhile and no one has mentioned that felt is really installed to keep dust from entering the attic not as a secondary water barrier. felt paper was brought a long as a result of the dirty 30's from wind driving dust under the shakes...


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## Burns-Built (May 8, 2009)

here in Pa 30 lb felt is about $11/sq and titanium or an equivalent like feltex is 12/sq. I hate 15 lb felt so that small price increase seems worth it to me. It lays so nice and when you come back in the morning, its not all bubbled up from the frost, or dew.


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## RooferJim (Mar 6, 2006)

OK for any of you guys that don't know . Roofing Common Sence 101. A shingled roof system is not an impermeable waterproof barrier, unlike flat membrane roofing it has to be able to shed water. Felt is the roofs last layer of defence against wind driven rain in severe weather. It also serves to achieve a class A fire rating, to comply with manufactuers specs,to comply with building code, to prevent resins in the sheathing from contact with the shingles. Its just plain old fashion common sence and good roofing practice. Also nails that are put through felt do not compromise it whatsoever, unless they are pulled out. nothing about dust.


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## welterweight (Nov 10, 2009)

almost seems as if the OP already did a job without felt and is now looking for reassurance from some of the pro's on this board;wants to finally get someone to say what he wants to hear. ain't gonna happen. I also believe the OP knows full well he should have used felt but for some reason or another decided against it. not a smart move.


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## roomrenovators (Sep 20, 2007)

My company is Room Renovators/Roof Renovators and I am Roofing and Remodeling contractor from Charlotte NC. I always use 30lb Felt or Synthetic on every Job as well as Weather Watch around the perimeter (eaves), around the chimney and in the Valleys on every job. I am from NY and let me tell you that so many contractors here dont use anything.........They do thing theyre on way in the south (stuck on stupid)..I give my customers the Best and explain every product I use to them and why they need it.........Its hilarious sometimes trying to get a customer to pay a bit more for better quality roof but they need to go grab that 85" plasma that just came out by sony last week.LMAO...priorities.....


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*hmmmm,felt, do I really need it,hmmmmm*

are the nails an option as well??? just curious:laughing:


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

If water finds its way underneath your roof, excluding ice dams, you suck as a roofer. If your valleys are not properly protected and you flashing details that bad, you should find another profession. That said if water DOES find it's way underneath WTF do you think felt is gonna do for you?:laughing:

We use underlayment on all our roofs, but felt is useless.


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## RooferJim (Mar 6, 2006)

Its true that I&W ans felt "or synthetic underlayment" can give some hack contractors a false sence of security. espeacially the I&W, some guys think that stuff is friggin magic and makes up for bad flashing details. there was even a thread once where some jackass contractor was using it as a starter course. But you really have to look at the roof as a system, a shingled roof is not an impermeable waterproof barrier but has to be able to shed water, not lets talk about the northeast storms we have here on cape cod, the wind is like a power washer hitting the roof horizontally. the underlayments job is the last layeer of defence against wind driven storms. I have seen a lot of problems with cheap new construction roofs "where they got paid by the square no doubt" that had all kinds of problems with no underlayment and had to be redone before there time, I have also seen some go twenty years. roll the dice. BTW, Hey concrete contractor buddy,You just try kicking a building inspector off your job and see what happens, :no: what a jackass comment. You could learn a few things from the full time contractors on this board, but maybee you already know everything. Some of us are just here to help

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

I use felt. Never a problem with it. You guys figure out why so many cannot use it properly. It's basic roofing here. 

You don't need UDL or Sharkskin or whatever.... you need to know how to roof.


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## RooferJim (Mar 6, 2006)

I agree Aaron, why reinvent the wheel. saturated felt has been used under roofs and walls for over one hundred years with no problems. Also a lot the synthetics also do not breath and can act as a vapor barrier "not good". I think the guys that like to use it in many cases also employ unskilled labor "illegals" and are trying to just dumb down the trade as much as possible. GAF claims to have the only synthetic felt that breaths. No thanks Ill stick with my tar paper.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

RooferJim said:


> I agree Aaron, why reinvent the wheel. saturated felt has been used under roofs and walls for over one hundred years with no problems. Also a lot the synthetics also do not breath and can act as a vapor barrier "not good". I think the guys that like to use it in many cases also employ unskilled labor "illegals" and are trying to just dumb down the trade as much as possible. GAF claims to have the only synthetic felt that breaths. No thanks Ill stick with my tar paper.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


Gotta disagree with this statement. Know why we use the synthetics? Because we build a lot of houses that are 10,000 sq ft or larger. The roof framing often takes several weeks. We cover areas with paper as we get them covered. In my experience, #15 felt will last about 7-10 days without shingles on it before it starts curling, pulling, shrinking, ripping. #30 will last a little longer, but develops some unsightly ripples. I agree with you that felt is adequate enough, provided you can get shingles on it before it begins to fail.
We do use it occasionally on small jobs. For the big stuff, I will stick with the synthetics. In 5 years we have never lost a piece of synthetic, even after several months uncovered.


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

RooferJim said:


> I agree Aaron, why reinvent the wheel. saturated felt has been used under roofs and walls for over one hundred years with no problems. Also a lot the synthetics also do not breath and can act as a vapor barrier "not good". I think the guys that like to use it in many cases also employ unskilled labor "illegals" and are trying to just dumb down the trade as much as possible. GAF claims to have the only synthetic felt that breaths. No thanks Ill stick with my tar paper.
> 
> RooferJim
> www.jbennetteroofing.com


Check the perm ratings of various synthetics. You'll find the all breath just fine.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

Warren said:


> Gotta disagree with this statement. Know why we use the synthetics? Because we build a lot of houses that are 10,000 sq ft or larger. The roof framing often takes several weeks. We cover areas with paper as we get them covered. In my experience, #15 felt will last about 7-10 days without shingles on it before it starts curling, pulling, shrinking, ripping. #30 will last a little longer, but develops some unsightly ripples. I agree with you that felt is adequate enough, provided you can get shingles on it before it begins to fail.
> We do use it occasionally on small jobs. For the big stuff, I will stick with the synthetics. In 5 years we have never lost a piece of synthetic, even after several months uncovered.


Your right on the button with #15 but #30 will last weeks, thus is a bit more than just a little longer than #15.
I did a 78 square 12/12 the year before last that Tim Kinowski framed and it sat 5 weeks under #30 before I started and they did not lose a single strip.
Framers in my area will use synthetics on larger jobs also.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Ok, aside from letting your projects sit for months at a time without being roofed in, how many ROOFERS use felt?


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

We use both synthetics and felt depending on the customer budget


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

Ive had problems with #30. Curling at the edges, buckling at the points of attachments to the point of cracking. 
Useing synthetics is not dumbing down the trade. Applying underlayments is applying underlayments regardless of its type. Its how long the underlayment will continue to be of a particular service is whats important.

What I dont agree with, that Ive read some where on this forum is where some will grace ice and water entire roofs then put wood shingles over it. Bad for the building and bad for the material. 

IMO Dumbing the trade is occuring elsewhere but not with the synthetic underlayments.


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## seeyou (Dec 12, 2008)

buddy110 said:


> We use both synthetics and felt depending on the customer budget


Synthetics are actually a little cheaper for me to use than #30 felt. More material cost, but less packing, nailing, side joints, etc. And as we often have long open times, no blowing off.


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## RooferJim (Mar 6, 2006)

So you do not think using your custumers as a guiea pig in the sence that it is a new product only tested by themselves so to speak. when I see the reason to use it I would. but have had no problems with a ASTM good quality #30 felt installed with buttons. I have had several new construction projects sit for months "not my doing" with just the felt and nice and dry. In short, Just because somthing is the newest, lastest and greatest thing since KoolAid "just ask the salesman"  dosent to me mean that I want to experiment with it on my custumers expensive roof.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

what is all this talk about synthetics? check out the rest of home construction and ask yourself is it old school construction or newer technology....plywood/OSB...PEX/PVC...krypton injected IG...spray foam insulation....Schluter-Ditra...most of these items provide great benefits over the older technology....1x8 planks....galvanized pipe....single pane glass....news paper


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

AaronB. said:


> Ok, aside from letting your projects sit for months at a time without being roofed in, how many ROOFERS use felt?


I have no problem with using synthetics under slate, tile, metal or even the "so called" lifetime shingles, but when I'm installing a 30 year shingle roof that is going to last 28 too 32 years and than need to be re-roofed again I'll stick with a 30 + year underlayment.
Now if I could re-use the synthetic 30 years from now than sure,
but I'm going to tear it off along with the shingles the same as I would with #30.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

You make a good point, Sly... I have torn off 60 year old roofs with perfect intact felt. 

Good point.


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## Cyle (Mar 3, 2010)

Thing is, there is more then one way to skin a cat. Doesn't mean there is only one right way. If you know how to do a roof that will be leak free for the life of the shingles easily and the sheating is still intact and not water damaged, the methods are fine (looking good is a given). Example, how many people here put flashing on after there shingles in valleys? I personally hate that and think it looks like they forgot to put it on, mine is ALWAYS under. Doesn't mean either is wrong :thumbsup: 
As far as dumbing down the trade. Honestly, as far as asphalt shingles go, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do the job to begin with and do it right. Felt underneath isn't going to prevent leaks if the job is done that bad, not to mention chances are it will look way to bad for anyone to ever accept the work.

As far as kicking a inspector off the jobsite. Yep, I have done it before and i'm sure it will happen again. If they don't know what they are talking about I tell them to leave. Never had a problem with it. Although from the sounds of it they are different down south. But I still wouldn't put up with it. Many inspections I get are for the customer/piece of mind only, they are not required. And many inspecters regardless of 3rd party companies or from the county or whatever, don't know a thing about building.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Cyle said:


> Honestly, as far as asphalt shingles go, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do the job to begin with and do it right. Felt underneath isn't going to prevent leaks if the job is done that bad, not to mention chances are it will look way to bad for anyone to ever accept the work.


If this is true, and asphalt shingles are so easy, why do so many get it wrong, to the point of my entire residential division is dedicated to the repair of others' faulty work?

I have done a lot of concrete in my younger days, and that doesn't take much more than a Gump either.

What did you mean by putting valley flashing in after the shingles? How do you do that?


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

buddy110 said:


> If water finds its way underneath your roof, excluding ice dams, you suck as a roofer. If your valleys are not properly protected and you flashing details that bad, you should find another profession. That said if water DOES find it's way underneath WTF do you think felt is gonna do for you?:laughing:
> 
> We use underlayment on all our roofs, but felt is useless.


Who the Fuc_ uses underlayment for waterproofing after the roof is on anyways?


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Who cares if these sheets breathe? They are not adhered to the deck anyways... sheesh, people, please think.


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## Cyle (Mar 3, 2010)

AaronB. said:


> If this is true, and asphalt shingles are so easy, why do so many get it wrong, to the point of my entire residential division is dedicated to the repair of others' faulty work?
> 
> I have done a lot of concrete in my younger days, and that doesn't take much more than a Gump either.
> 
> What did you mean by putting valley flashing in after the shingles? How do you do that?


Idiots can screw up anything of course. Yea i've seen them screwed up, but only from people that are so stupid they don't know their right shoe from their left. What I mean is, a regular person could pickup shingles in about an afternoon and be decent, slow but decent and do a good job. It's not like if you haven't been a roofer for 20 years and do it everyday you don't know what your doing. My main point is, I do 10-20 roofs a year, I know what i'm doing, just because i'm not a "roofer" doesn't mean i'm clueless when it comes to it. Did I say concrete was hard? The thing is, shingles can be fixed for little extra cost, concrete is completly redo. And over half my work is fixing others mistakes, because to many jack-alls think they know how to do concrete and it's easy money. It's not that tough, but forget 1 minor thing, and your redoing the entire thing and loosing a lot of money. There's a reason concretes labour rate for workers, and jobs is INSANLY high. Because not many people who can do it right want to do it.

A concrete guy can come in pour a garage pad, and build you a garage start to finish. Think a framer, roofer, sider, etc could do it? Doubtfull. Concrete may not be the hardest, but it's the easiest to screw up and most people won't try it. If someone messes up anything else it's easy to look over it and fix it. You can fix concrete after with a jackhammer :laughing:

Go to rooferjims website....he has pictures of it.....can't miss em.


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