# Cheap ass home owners putting reputable contractors out of business



## windowking52 (Jun 24, 2013)

Hey guys I just wanted to see if everyone is seeing this trend with homeowners? here in the Chicago market it started out with hgtv then the housing crash then the out of work union guys all flooding an industry we have been in for over 60 years. Just in the last week i have run 6 estimates, and lost everyone of them because as i was told by the clients they found someone to do it on the side for alot less. Do they realize they get no warranty and when there is a problem who will they call? let alone when this finally puts all the reputable contractors out of business, We will for sure have all these home owners complaining they can't find anyone to do the work or even show up as is the case in the phoenix market from what i hear from several people down there it has already started. and in Austin tx where there is apparently a lack of quality contractors. i am just about to loose it. I used to love this industry, but homeowners have taken that from me.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Sounds like your marketing & salesmanship is failing, or is targeting the wrong segment.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

A lack of quality contractors, yes.. lack of cheap "contractors" no...

The only way to compete with the union guy doing side work is to sell yourself, impress them with knowledge and always remember everything you do and every action you take reflects on you and your company. Word of mouth is the cheapest advertisment.

I think once the economy fully picks back up and all the "ford plant workers" find a steady job it wont be as bad.. but once people get cheap in a bad economy they never get any less cheap down the road i feel...


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

yeah, we hear it about 5 times a day.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I know this is cliche around here, but don't go after cheap ass customers. Good customers understand the need to pay for what you get. They get a good job that I don't have to ask them for an extra tube of caulk on, or make them pay for that small repair that I know is going to come up. 

Be a quality contractor and you will start to get quality customers. I love my customers. :thumbsup:


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

To add to what has already been said, I find that cheap homeowners are often inexperienced and first-time homeowners. 

Given this whole sub-prime market that helped to create the crisis, there are plenty of people out there who should not own homes but they managed to keep their mortgage paid. These are the same people who reject the idea that renovation work can cost more than their car and these are people who think that normal wear items in a house reflects negatively on the contractor that built it. They think that their new house is like a new car.

Because of that, we have a bunch of rookie homoeowners who got past that 3-year or 5-year mark of paying their mortgage and now they want to do other things after they refi for a lower payment.

Thus you have the cheap-ice homeowner.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

It is what it is. And it isn't going to get any easier. Supply and demand baby


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

windowking52 said:


> it started out with hgtv


I wonder what type of tradespeople work on their house when they need work done?


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

I know its easier said than done, but you gotta be a salesman. Are you meeting potential clients with a portfolio in hand? A list of references? An iPad presentation of your best projects? You have to add value to your business. 

It's the clients that understand value are the ones I target. You have to explain to them that you and your company execute the best field practices and techniques and these are things they may never see (flashing a roof, chimney, window, door properly for example) and by the time they find out that there's a problem the check is cleared & the low baller is long gone. 

Show them pictures of practices you do that most other guys dont do. Tell them about the quality of products and materials you use. Get them n touch with past clients that got burned & hired you to come in and fix the mess---theyll think twice about going with the cheapest price. Gotta think like a salesman if you want to stay in the game.


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Back to the OP. Charge more. I hate losing jobs- but I don't mind If I can sell the next one for more and give them the treatment they are paying for that you are selling. 

Everybody who has been in business for any amount of time has had problems, call backs whatever you want to call them. Go back to the ones your have had, talk to them and use them as references- send them a dinner gift card and tell them you need their help. 


You are a window guy, You've been in business long enough to know seals have failed, windows have been broken whatever- whatever you did to rectify the situation is the best proof of your value for the long road for their window buying and using experience. 

Don't show the same products that these other clowns can show them. Service after the sale is what I'm getting at, go back and get past customers on board- times are tough do the difference.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

what was the source for the Austin, TX reference? There is a hell of a lot of building going on in the MF/commercial end-not sure about the residential side based on what I briefly observed.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I'd like to compliment you on choosing a thread title that is certain to endear you to all of your potential clients.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

72chevy4x4 said:


> what was the source for the Austin, TX reference? There is a hell of a lot of building going on in the MF/commercial end-not sure about the residential side based on what I briefly observed.


A lot of hacks. Like everywhere, I imagine. 

A lot of good contractors there too, though.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Trying to sell a customer a Porsche when they want a Kia is never gonna go well. If they ain't concerned about having a quality job, warranty, insurance, Experianced contractor who's gonna be in business to back up his product then you are best not working for them. You won't make any money from these people and the ones doing the job will soon be out of business and another 3 will replace them who will also not be in business for long either.


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## Pete'sfeets (Mar 20, 2011)

like everything else in life, there is a mirror, if you don't much like yourself don't be looking in the mirror, but we all cannot resist to look of course and so well not that I am religious much but karma, it always comes back to help.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Pete'sfeets said:


> like everything else in life, there is a mirror, if you don't much like yourself don't be looking in the mirror, but we all cannot resist to look of course and so well not that I am religious much but karma, it always comes back to help.


Not...quite...sure...how...to...

...respond to this...

:blink:


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

tenon0774 said:


> Not...quite...sure...how...to...
> 
> ...respond to this...
> 
> :blink:


:laughing: someone's been hittin the bottle tonight apparently


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## Kenny B (Jun 25, 2013)

Im never the cheapest estimate and I tell every customer that. I tell them up front that I wont be the cheapest or the most expensive but I do stand behind my work and if they ever need anything they are welcome to call me. I have a very good reputation in this area and I have customers that will wait months for me to get to them. Dont sweat the customers that are killing you for the price, work with the ones that want your quality.


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## FRAME2FINISH (Aug 31, 2010)

And when you become successful don't live like you make good money,,, it helps when the work isn't there!!!

I have no clue how people are spending what they are spending,, two new vehicles 300+ home etc etc,,

I kill myself as it is and think how hard I'd have to work to afford that lifestyle,,
I'd rather be out on my bike enjoying my down time,, my wife says I'm partially retired lol


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Trying to sell a customer a Porsche when they want a Kia is never gonna go well. If they ain't concerned about having a quality job, warranty, insurance, Experianced contractor who's gonna be in business to back up his product then you are best not working for them. You won't make any money from these people and the ones doing the job will soon be out of business and another 3 will replace them who will also not be in business for long either.


Yes and no. A lot of people think they're comparing apples to apples and don't realize the importance of the things they can't see. 

Take paint for example, they could hire the cheap guy, have all of the trim rot after a few years, and then need all new trim and paint. All they see is paint contractor A is $***x and paint contractor B is $***x. You have to at least give them the opportunity to understand WHY you're more expensive. It's innate in human nature to associate higher price with over-priced, when in reality, it's the lower price that's the over-price in the long run. :huh::laughing:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> Yes and no. A lot of people think they're comparing apples to apples and don't realize the importance of the things they can't see.
> 
> Take paint for example, they could hire the cheap guy, have all of the trim rot after a few years, and then need all new trim and paint. All they see is paint contractor A is $***x and paint contractor B is $***x. You have to at least give them the opportunity to understand WHY you're more expensive. It's innate in human nature to associate higher price with over-priced, when in reality, it's the lower price that's the over-price in the long run. :huh::laughing:



The problem with the cheap customer is they can't see the advantage of what your selling. All they see is the bottom line. I could be offering a job at 3x the quality yet only 30% more expensive than the cheap guy yet they will still go for the cheap guy.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> :laughing: someone's been hittin the bottle tonight apparently


Yes, but that doesn't mean what I responded to, or how I responded to it....

...ah, forget it.

:whistling

You're just sore about the "palm nailer" comment... :laughing:

:jester:


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

FRAME2FINISH said:


> And when you become successful don't live like you make good money,,, it helps when the work isn't there!!!
> 
> I have no clue how people are spending what they are spending,, two new vehicles 300+ home etc etc,,
> 
> ...



Any younger contractors need to heed this advice, but they usually don't. If you live quite a bit beneath your means you can cushion most anything that comes your way and always be fine and comfortable. Oops, I think I am derailing the thread. F2F I think you should start a thread about this very issue.:thumbsup:

Sorry for the derail but I just had to back up this wise advice that nobody seems to think of anymore.

NOW back to the topic, and I agree with the OP since I'm in the same areas. Lot's of hacks out there with no insurance and don't pay taxes etc. I can't compete with that either.

Fortunately I have pretty much awesome customers that see through the rosy red low pricing.


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

tenon0774 said:


> Yes, but that doesn't mean what I responded to, or how I responded to it....
> 
> ...ah, forget it.
> 
> ...


:laughing: I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to the comment you quoted, don't think that came through :stuart:


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

windowking52 said:


> Hey guys I just wanted to see if everyone is seeing this trend with homeowners? here in the Chicago market it started out with hgtv then the housing crash then the out of work union guys all flooding an industry we have been in for over 60 years. Just in the last week i have run 6 estimates, and lost everyone of them because as i was told by the clients they found someone to do it on the side for alot less. Do they realize they get no warranty and when there is a problem who will they call? let alone when this finally puts all the reputable contractors out of business, We will for sure have all these home owners complaining they can't find anyone to do the work or even show up as is the case in the phoenix market from what i hear from several people down there it has already started. and in Austin tx where there is apparently a lack of quality contractors. i am just about to loose it. I used to love this industry, but homeowners have taken that from me.


Maybe you could inform the union bosses about the abundance of scabbing. Isn't that a major no-no? You think side jobs are killing the window industry? What about the effect of internet on retail? It's a changing world, and where it's heading nobody knows.


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## JackP23 (Jan 1, 2013)

I just read an article about Illinois and their 100 billion.....yes billion with a "b" of unfunded pension payments.........dang! 


I hear North Dakota is nice this time of year.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

IMO this has been going on for many yrs although i will agree with HGTV and the big box stores giving small classes on the basics you do see HO's and wanna be contractors taking more of our business. But, the way i see it when they screw up who do they call? Now we hit them with a service call and full labor rate to fix someone else's non warrantied screw up. I am always willing to work with a HO a little to get a better number so i at least get the job but i am not willing to cut my own throat either just to keep working, sometimes you are better off sitting home making nothing than to work all week for a loss.


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

BCConstruction said:


> Trying to sell a customer a Porsche when they want a Kia is never gonna go well. If they ain't concerned about having a quality job, warranty, insurance, Experianced contractor who's gonna be in business to back up his product then you are best not working for them. You won't make any money from these people and the ones doing the job will soon be out of business and another 3 will replace them who will also not be in business for long either.


Surely BC they don't "want" a Kia.


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## demoguymiami (Mar 14, 2013)

Move to Texas, North Dakota, Florida (particularly the North part of Florida. I don't understand why people fear leaving crappy cities with crappy people so badly. America was build by people who where not scared to leave it all behind just for a shot that they could live a better life. 

Yet now we are willing to lose it all for the hope that our crappy surroundings may all the sudden turn around and sparkle. And by the way its just moving states, its not like your leaving the country. My family had to move from Cuba in the 70's to Venezuela to then come here in the early 90's and if Americans don't wake the heck up it looks like I'm gonna have to end up running away from here too.

Sorry for the rant just kinda passionate about the topic


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## DKnafo (Feb 1, 2009)

BCConstruction said:


> The problem with the cheap customer is they can't see the advantage of what your selling. All they see is the bottom line. I could be offering a job at 3x the quality yet only 30% more expensive than the cheap guy yet they will still go for the cheap guy.


How are they really supposed to know this? Every contractor is telling them they will get great quality for what they charge.

What is brought up a lot here whenever a story about someone getting ripped off is that the customer must have picked the lowest priced option. My guess is that a fair share of them the middle or highest priced option was picked. 

It is hard as a customer to know who to trust. Even with referrals. After all no contractor is going to give someone they had problems with as a referral.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Im finding myself losing bids by unrealistic margins. Hardley worth the effort or the responsibilty. As usual the good contractors and tradesman are suffering due to the vast population who think they are handy and hustling side work. Phony housing market, cheap illegal labor and now a jobless recovery with expensive materials.

Ive said this before but in the 80's you could make a better living doing construction and the clients didnt use expensive material. Vinyl siding, vinyl windows, 20 yr roofs, formica, ceramic, wood decks. 
Now everybody is playing contractor, every contractor claims to do everything and everyone wants, composite, granite, porcelin, hardie......It has little to do with your marketing. The spending hasnt really stopped it is just going to more expensive material and the labor is being sacrificed. Immigration reform and inflation will do more harm than good. 

A specialty niche or get in a high end nieghborhood is what its going to take.


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

I have all but stopped doing estimates for the masses, I still do them for refferals.
Even doing things this way is hard right now.

example: I bid 9k to do a proper reroof (in metal) on a small rental duplex for a guy I know well who sends me his sparky repairs all the time

I drove by several times as they did a simple lay over shakes and 2 layers of 3 tab at first I was MAD to say the least but a few weeks later I found out they did it for $500 more then my material costs of doing it right. 3 months later I get the call that its leaking worse then before ( me being my ******* self) I tell him $10k I'll go in and do it right


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## FRAME2FINISH (Aug 31, 2010)

The guy I used to do a lot of work for actually referred me to someone for work,,,

Which I forgot to tell you offered me my work back,,, I met with him and listened to his deal and said I'd have to get back to him,, still haven't got back to him!!!

So the referral guy forgot he asked me years back to rock his upstairs that you can't get rock too without cutting it in half, he said my prices were high back then,,,

Told him I'd stop by on my bike on my way too bike night,,,, I remember passing his house at a hundred in a wheelie!!!

He called the next day,, dam I knew I was forgetting something!! Will Monday be better for you oh yea Monday's are always better 

Dam I knew I was forgetting something,,,

Maybe it was the Dave said you could help me out,, I only got x amount of money and he said you were looking for work,,

Sounds like a couple sharks smelling blood in the water lol


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## Tmarxconstruct (Jul 4, 2013)

Here in San Diego I'm competing against unlicensed hacks and the unemployed union hacks.
New builds are extremely slow due to permit cost, taxes, and economy.
Tuff times for sure..


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tmarxconstruct said:


> Here in San Diego I'm competing against unlicensed hacks and the unemployed union hacks.
> New builds are extremely slow due to permit cost, taxes, and economy.
> Tuff times for sure..



Q: How do Macy's and Neiman Marcus compete against Target & Wal-Mart?

A: They don't.



And if you consider unlicensed wanna-bes and laid-off union hacks to be your competitors, you're classifying yourself the same as them.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

I read this the other day. Assuming he is correct I think it would be interesting to know the demographics of the three groups he mentions. 



Ted Garrison 
Ted Garrison’s Construction 3.0 Strategies

“You must start with the right prospects and clients. Studies indicate 17 percent of people will buy value always. They simply want the best. Twenty-seven percent always buy price. They don’t care about quality. Just forget them because you will never win the argument. That leaves 56 percent in the middle who will buy price or value. In cases where you are working with clients who value quality and you are being underbid by a contractor delivering low-quality work, what you need to do is ask, ‘Why don’t you call somebody who has had work done by that contractor?’ Then they hear directly from the customers. 
I have a friend who is a contractor, and he’s not the cheapest guy in town, but he has more work than he can handle. He used to have the same problem, but then he began walking away when he was working with a customer who was buying on price alone. The customer has to be interested in performance; otherwise, he won’t do the job. Better to spend the time looking for the value-based prospects.”

- See more at: http://www.constructionbusinessowne...anging-low-bid-mentality#sthash.tLTCgtMP.dpuf


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

It feels like there is a lot of work if you sell your skills on $40/hr 300 /day around here. Thats right about where jobs are being priced if you break down how. Craigslist clients or Union guys pick up extra side money, and its a raise for young guys or illegals working whom were working for 20-25/hr.

Unfortunatley to be in business you need mark ups and it cost at least 15-20/hr to go to work. But we're at the mercy of being deemed expensive because there are so many people who use the proffession as a supplement. Its getting exhausting.


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## plandscaping (Jul 8, 2013)

Kenny B said:


> Im never the cheapest estimate and I tell every customer that. I tell them up front that I wont be the cheapest or the most expensive but I do stand behind my work and if they ever need anything they are welcome to call me. I have a very good reputation in this area and I have customers that will wait months for me to get to them. Dont sweat the customers that are killing you for the price, work with the ones that want your quality.


This is the best response I have read to your problem. In my field (landscaping) there are a lot of hacks and fly-by-nighters. I use the "Im not the cheapest or most expensive" line at almost every customer meeting. Most people are not stupid. If you are confident in what you are selling, people will see it. You do come across those people who just want the cheapest and in the end, they call someone else to come fix mistakes. That is at least 1/4 of my business......fixing other landscapers mistakes. I have been in business for a short two years, but already have seen and delt with people who want cheap work and people who want quality work. I have recieved call backs from people who didnt go with me in the first place to fix jobs. It all works itself out in the end if you are confident in what you do.


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## SmartConstruct (Jul 2, 2013)

AmeliaP said:


> I read this the other day. Assuming he is correct I think it would be interesting to know the demographics of the three groups he mentions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:clap:
I've been on this site for a month and a half and this is one of the best posts. Thanks. You just answered the second question I was about to post if it had not been for Google: "Percentage of homeowners who want the work done for free compared to the percentage of homeowners who want quality work?"


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

The *ONLY *way cheap-ass HO's can put a reputable company out of business is when the company does business with the cheap-ass HO.

Qualify your leads, and turn away the cheap-asses. Problem solved.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> I'd like to compliment you on choosing a thread title that is certain to endear you to all of your potential clients.


Got to love your jabs.

Here's something you could try instead of being a smart a$$, try educating a new member that CT is a high ranking search result and that potential customers can see your public posts.

The guy has 6 posts, cut him some slack and maybe add to the conversation instead of side tracking it.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Got to love your jabs.
> 
> Here's something you could try instead of being a smart a$$, try educating a new member that CT is a high ranking search result and that potential customers can see your public posts.
> 
> The guy has 6 posts, cut him some slack and maybe add to the conversation instead of side tracking it.


Really?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Really?


Troll much?


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

tntservices said:


> troll much?


pkb


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Troll much?


Only when salmon fishing.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Only when salmon fishing.


Now that was funny!


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Only when salmon fishing.


Where do you fish for Salmon? & species?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Lake Michigan, King Salmon. Fun to catch, horrible to eat.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Lake Michigan, King Salmon. Fun to catch, horrible to eat.


Learn to enjoy home-canned salmon. Ex-Grand-FIL lived AT the Singing Bridge in Au Gres. He'd can them bad boys up, and man, was it good.

Mmmm, Mmm Mmm. Miserable SOB, but he had the recipe right.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I have tried cooking it all sorts of ways, it is still the only fish I really dont like eating.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I have tried cooking it all sorts of ways, it is still the only fish I really dont like eating.


I understand that. But have you ever had it canned? (I mean put up in mason jars and properly steam canned) - or is it Salmon in general?. It's amazing.


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## SmartConstruct (Jul 2, 2013)

480sparky said:


> The *ONLY *way cheap-ass HO's can put a reputable company out of business is when the company does business with the cheap-ass HO.
> 
> Qualify your leads, and turn away the cheap-asses. Problem solved.


:lol:

That's great! But, how do you qualify the leads besides hearing "Give me your lowest price?" Only 10% of my estimates are like that. How do I weed out the other 10%?


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Lake Michigan, King Salmon. Fun to catch, horrible to eat.





The salmon out of lake Michigan have enough PCB s to glow in the dark:l::laughing:

A river 100 yds. from my home flows into that lake,every spring and fall the salmon are as thick as hair on a dog,I tell the guys fishing,just throw them on the bank,it will kill all the pesky raccoons.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

SmartConstruct said:


> :lol:
> 
> That's great! But, how do you qualify the leads besides hearing "Give me your lowest price?" Only 10% of my estimates are like that. How do I weed out the other 10%?


"Do you have any prints drawn up?" "Are you financing the project, or paying out-of-pocket?" (if financing, "Are you pre-qualified?") "What is your time frame?" " What other projects have you completed in the past?"


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I have tried cooking it all sorts of ways, it is still the only fish I really dont like eating.


Try this recipe:
Take a piece of fillet, skin side down, drizzle with balsamic vinegar, cook it in the microwave for a couple minutes (4-5, I forget). Do the flake test to test when it's "done". That's it. Serve with rice. It's a hit.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

fjn said:


> The salmon out of lake Michigan have enough PCB s to glow in the dark:l::laughing:


Which makes them easier to catch at night. No one told you?:blink:



> A river 100 yds. from my home flows into that lake,every spring and fall the salmon are as thick as hair on a dog,I tell the guys fishing,just throw them on the bank,it will kill all the pesky raccoons.


We can only hope:thumbup:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

SmartConstruct said:


> :lol:
> 
> That's great! But, how do you qualify the leads besides hearing "Give me your lowest price?" Only 10% of my estimates are like that. How do I weed out the other 10%?


*"Do you want my lowest price or my best price?"*... :whistling

Great opening to explain the difference in your company versus others...


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

MarkJames said:


> Try this recipe:
> Take a piece of fillet, skin side down, drizzle with balsamic vinegar, cook it in the microwave for a couple minutes (4-5, I forget). Do the flake test to test when it's "done". That's it. Serve with rice. It's a hit.


Salmon? Microwave?... sacrilege... 

Just buy frozen... :whistling


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