# Cheap granite pirices?



## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

I dealt with a granite company for years. This winter they apparently went out of business because some builders stiffed them.
One of the salesman went to another company and called me to see about doing our work. I gave him a shot and used him on my kitchen. I felt he treated me fairly and was satisfied...not ecstatic over the work. The two installers spoke no English, arrived during a rain and begged me to find a tarp for them to work under. 
Our next Kitchen the customer is an accountant and asked me to break the granite down seperately. I came in $800 higher than the guy he chose. 
This company is owned by two Vietnamese guys who sent out two Hispanic guys that spoke no English but it wasn't raining:thumbsup: They did a decent job on the install. I actually called them today and have them pricing a kitchen and 3 vanities...They are installing most granite at $24 per sq' including cut outs.. That does not include undermount.
I feel kind of guilty seeing the money go to ?? and telling the new old guy that he was just about twice as much? I am pocketing almost a couple of grand by using them! 
I have been buying at Walmart and Home Depot too:shutup: Is there any hope for me?
What are you paying...or in the case of Patti, getting?


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## StonednVA (Feb 25, 2006)

Being in the stone counter trade all I can say is wow. I don't know how you could be getting prices that cheap unless the owner does not know his cost to do business or they are using pre-fabricated chinese blanks. We would normally get at least $60 per sq. ft. for builder pricing. I am curious to know what others are paying around the country for granite so please chime in.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

StonednVA said:


> Being in the stone counter trade all I can say is wow. I don't know how you could be getting prices that cheap unless the owner does not know his cost to do business or they are using pre-fabricated chinese blanks. We would normally get at least $60 per sq. ft. for builder pricing. I am curious to know what others are paying around the country for granite so please chime in.


For years I was paying $50 a foot. When the owner told me what they wanted I laughed. I warned him that they may really end up screwing him with the extras etc? They did a fine job and to date have not collected a penny from him? Apparently they install for Lowes and are B.B.B. members which means Johnny homeowner loves it? I don't feel real good about using them but will sell my soul for a buck like everyone else


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## StonednVA (Feb 25, 2006)

If they did a fine job why haven't they collected anything?


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

StonednVA said:


> If they did a fine job why haven't they collected anything?


They haven't contacted the owner for collection? They didn't even collect 50% up front. I couldn't even get away with that with the company I dealt with for years.


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Pretty soon their will be so many solid surface manufacturers competing against each other which will force profit margins down...which will force quality down.... Pick a quality local American company and if they are good stick with them---just like you would want someone to do to you.Otherwise you are asking for it.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Gordo said:


> Pretty soon their will be so many solid surface manufacturers competing against each other which will force profit margins down...which will force quality down.... Pick a quality local American company and if they are good stick with them---just like you would want someone to do to you.Otherwise you are asking for it.



If you look at the original post both sent out non English speaking people. So I ask, Should I pay the salesman an extra $2000 for being American? if the installers were more qualified then I would stick with them but that's not the case:no: The quality is not what a "true craftsman" would leave but not too many people care:sad:

Coming soon to a neighborhood near you!!:thumbsup:


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## Patty (Jan 21, 2006)

*Prices Are All Over the Map these days!*

For starters, I will tell you that pricing has fluctuated on the actual product lately and I'm getting all kinds of weird answers from the importers. For instance, the granite I chose for my own kitchen is a special order granite. The pricing, in less than 8 months has TRIPLED! Also, it is difficult to obtain in the Chicago market right now and currently, I cannot even get my hands on certain product that is in hot demand & somewhat exotic and rare, in nature. So, issues such as Supply & Demand are really affecting actual product pricing.
For a custom-made order, for a residential customer, average pricing comes in between $50.00 to $60.00/sq. foot. Bevelling costs run, on average, $20.00 a linear foot. We do offer undermounted sink installation, as well. This usually is the cost of the sink plus $200.00 to $250.00 for necessary parts and installation. We never try to gouge a customer HOWEVER, we aren't in business to lose money either. We always remain profitable covering all of our overhead. Labor rates for installers typically run around $13 to $17/hr in the Chicago area. (More experienced installers get the higher end.) By the time you factor all labor involved, insurance costs, vehicles, admin./ advertising, shop overhead, etc...you really cannot afford to charge any less. And let's not forget about breakage. Every once in awhile, we accidentally break a piece and have to "eat" it. Your pricing needs to absorb situations like this too. 

Regarding competitive pricing problems, I see a problem that everyone in the trades feels a pinch from. It's these guys doing side jobs or starting out with very little overhead i.e., working out of their garage, using a beat up old van, no insurance, no ANYTHING! I know tradesman like union electricians who's company's charge upwards of $65.00/labor hour, yet these guys will do work on the side (weekend/evenings) and only charge $25 or $30 an hour for their labor. It happens in all the trades, all the time.

I hope this was helpful. I'm not quite sure if I answered your question adequately. PM me if you want more information, ok?


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## Patty (Jan 21, 2006)

*Another thing....*

....just another thought, expounding on the post I just posted...:whistling ,
quality in craftsmanship is usually refected in pricing, from my experience, anyway. I gutted my own home and hired various people in the trades to do things. I could have re-done my bathroom, for instance, for $5,000-$7,000.
Imstead, it cost me over $17,000.00 Why? Because I wanted the best of everything and I wanted it done by THE BEST! And, it was.  So, whether it's granite, or plumbing, or electrical or carpentry, etc...in a perfect world, a customer should get what they pay for. That goes for product, as well. 

Best thing we all can do is EARN a good reputation out in the field and EARN our money, fair & square. People are willing to pay competitive prices for QUALITY work. Those that aren't can call a Hack or go to HD and sell out for cheap prices and crappy craftsmanship. I've said my piece! THE END!:blink:


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

You can not get good work cheap and you can not get cheap work good.My mind set always looks long term...as far as relationships is concerned.I would hate to save a few thousand only to lose twice that long term because bridges got burned or call back problems can not be addressed due to low price.Thanks Copus.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

These guys do not seem to be fly by night. They have a large warehouse and a retail store in a thriving business area. They carry 26 colors and can get additional colors for additional dollars. Their highest granite is $34 a sq' installed all edge treatments included. He also said they order and stock their own granite.
Seems like a case of doing twice the work for half the price to me but they don't want payment till the job is complete! I makes it hard for me to loose?

Now, we all like to see our trades stay skilled but that world has been ending and will continue to get worse. It happens with foreign cars and products being used. People shopping at Walmart and watching their neighborhood shops dry up? Buying from Home Depot who is competing against you.

Hell I'm taking the two grand using the low baller. It happens to us all and I am gonna get my piece of the pie.

Not that I like it :sad:


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Gordo said:


> You can not get good work cheap and you can not get cheap work good.My mind set always looks long term...as far as relationships is concerned.I would hate to save a few thousand only to lose twice that long term because bridges got burned or call back problems can not be addressed due to low price.Thanks Copus.


I still don't understand how I can get burned worse using two different guys that don't speak english?? Two thousand because I have the presence of white American salesman? A couple of grand is a substantial amount of money. If I were getting a true craftsman that took his time and worked wonders then I would say I'll pay the extra. But as I said it was the same basic crew and I was getting nothing for my two grand....I shall stand tall and take the money:clap: 

It is an equal product with an equal installation for lots less...I'm willing to bet there would be 99% participation with everyone if it were done behind closed doors 

like I said I don't really like it but.....I want a new Goldwing


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

They are installing most granite at $24 per sq' including cut outs

Is that slab granite or granite tile?


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## Patty (Jan 21, 2006)

Copus,

I'm with ya. I understand your thoughts, here. And, if you are happy with both,, product quality and the installers are doing a good job, what's the problem? We can get good prices on run-of-the-mill granite here, too. But, in the Chicago suburban market, we get a ton of orders for the more pricey, more rare granite. (Very yuppy, suburban crowd with combined incomes from 100K to 250K.:thumbsup: ) They want the best that's out there and usually the "sample board" with the run-of-the-mill cheaper stuff is not what we end up selling them. Also, they want backsplashes and bevelling. I've done kitchens for $3,500 and I've done kitchens for $15,000!!!!:w00t: It all depends what the buyer wants. As for profit margins when you are the GC, why not make what you can? If your customers are happy with their quality of work and you are happy with the quality of their work...and the price is right? Hey, seems everyone is happy! And, no one should beat you up for it, either, nor should you feel bad. So, go out and buy that Gold Wing....
.........not a Harley man, huh?:laughing:


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Stoned, the going rate here starts at $55 a sq. ft. installed.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

3cm granite in group I to group 5 starts @ $40.00 -$80 sq ft. Starts is the key word! Rarely does anybody want anything installed that doesn't end up at about $60 sq ft. 

At $24 sq ft profit would be way more than $2000 on a kitchen that's for sure! Like Stoned said I couldn't even come close to $24 sq ft for Chinese blanks, no way. Did these guys steal a quarry or something? I can't see how anybody can do that. Enjoy it and make some money with it, as long as the quality of the work and the stone is up to your standards you have yourself a gold mine there. 

I know if it was me and I had access to something like that the first thing I would do is run advertisements everywhere I could and be installing the crap out of the stuff.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

747 said:


> They are installing most granite at $24 per sq' including cut outs
> 
> Is that slab granite or granite tile?


Sorry, had to take the night off. Have a fire and drink a few beers:thumbsup: 

It is slab granite. Includes most edge treatments too


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> At $24 sq ft profit would be way more than $2000 on a kitchen that's for sure! Like Stoned said I couldn't even come close to $24 sq ft for Chinese blanks, no way.
> .


The $2000 is in addition to my markup.

I will be getting one of their sample boards but do know they have the most popular colors in the neighborhood. The area they are in is Champions golf course. A lot of older money and much less complicated people than the yuppies (who make me gag).

Patty, I do a lot of riding in all different states surrounding Texas. I currently ride a kawasaki vulcan 1500 and when I get my guys lined up I go:thumbsup: I read an article recently that 70% of Harley riders are afraid to take their bikes on a long trip due to mechanics? Think I'll head for the Honda


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

copusbuilder said:


> I still don't understand how I can get burned worse using two different guys that don't speak english?? Two thousand because I have the presence of white American salesman? A couple of grand is a substantial amount of money. If I were getting a true craftsman that took his time and worked wonders then I would say I'll pay the extra. But as I said it was the same basic crew and I was getting nothing for my two grand....I shall stand tall and take the money:clap:
> 
> It is an equal product with an equal installation for lots less...I'm willing to bet there would be 99% participation with everyone if it were done behind closed doors
> 
> like I said I don't really like it but.....I want a new Goldwing


I guess I should drop all of my insurances,contractor licences,and work only for cash cuz 99% of everyone is doing it behind closed doors.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Gordo said:


> I guess I should drop all of my insurances,contractor licences,and work only for cash cuz 99% of everyone is doing it behind closed doors.


I am not sure I follow you Gordo??? I imagine you are referring to the frustration of seeing granite sold that cheap?
All the trades are being sold out for cheap labor. It seems to be what (most) people are looking for. When I started in the trades there seemed to be a sense of pride. I started in the electrical business working for my dads company. I was proud to be studying for my license and tried really hard to do things right. I have not had an employee that even comes close to acting that way. 
It all boils down to the "wants of the people" make it look good but keep it cheap?? I am a perfectionist by nature and left working because I would go broke competing at todays prices and staying on the job till it was just so. 
I thinks it frustrates us all:sad:


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

copusbuilder said:


> I am not sure I follow you Gordo??? I imagine you are referring to the frustration of seeing granite sold that cheap?
> All the trades are being sold out for cheap labor. It seems to be what (most) people are looking for. When I started in the trades there seemed to be a sense of pride. I started in the electrical business working for my dads company. I was proud to be studying for my license and tried really hard to do things right. I have not had an employee that even comes close to acting that way.
> It all boils down to the "wants of the people" make it look good but keep it cheap?? I am a perfectionist by nature and left working because I would go broke competing at todays prices and staying on the job till it was just so.
> I thinks it frustrates us all:sad:


I see where you are coming from Copus.I did not realize you were not in the trades anymore.Where I am coming from is "Have you checked out the legitimacy of these guys?".I am sure you have since it sounds like you are seasoned.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Gordo said:


> I see where you are coming from Copus.I did not realize you were not in the trades anymore.Where I am coming from is "Have you checked out the legitimacy of these guys?".I am sure you have since it sounds like you are seasoned.



I am still in the trades... just through paperwork and estimating now. 

They are legit. Companies advertising $24 a foot installs have been advertising for a couple of years. I have always told my customers that brought it up that they were a scam and had all sorts of hidden charges?
Some wanted 3/4 payment and 1-2 months wait on the work.

When this customer used them I told him he would likely regret it. 
in reality he got a better job than I did and saved himself a chunk of change. Believe me I am not a fan of the hustle and bustle mentality but couldn't pass up the savings for an = or superior product:sad: 

This guy even had my bid done in two hours and says he will work hard with me to better the price since we do a lot of kitchens??

Maybe he is one of the pirates that sits off Somalia and raids passing frieghters. 

Right now I will make an extra $2000. In 6 months I will be doing the jobs $2000 cheaper since everyone will be forced to drop and match or loose the bid. In reality these guys are ruining their own business by working to cheap.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

copusbuilder said:


> This guy even had my bid done in two hours and says he will work hard with me to better the price since we do a lot of kitchens??


GOOD GOD! Have you been stuffing the collection plate at church lately or what???!!!! <<Insert the jealousy smiley here???!!!!>>


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> GOOD GOD! Have you been stuffing the collection plate at church lately or what???!!!! <<Insert the jealousy smiley here???!!!!>>


LOL. Would have to put a lot more $$ in just to get back in good graces and be allowed to enter a church:whistling


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## Edward (Sep 1, 2005)

*Granite*

I think last year I saw Granite in the U.S. sold for $6sf raw material.

Then; Deliver,Measure/Template,Cut,Finish,Deliver again,install,Ins.ect. 

I guess that is where $50.sf goes.

Ed


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Edward said:


> I think last year I saw Granite in the U.S. sold for $6sf raw material.
> 
> Then; Deliver,Measure/Template,Cut,Finish,Deliver again,install,Ins.ect.
> 
> ...



I suspect our healthy illegal aleinn market contibutes to the price. Heck, no taxes, health benefits, overtime etc. etc.
One day we will all have to go to China to make a living:blink:


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

*Update*

To those interested I thought an update may be in order? 

The company has a web site www.thegranitemaster.com

Tried the link and it didn't work for me? I even double checked the spelling??

It seems they order slabs that are manufactured in China. The granite is shipped to China where the fabrication takes plae. The edge treatments etc are already on the slabs. He literally had 100's of containers of this product??
He had limited machinery to fabricate the islands or anything out of the ordinary.

Just one more example of outsourcing:sad:


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## JPV123 (Sep 14, 2005)

A friend of mine told me how he gets his granite cheap from "chinese guys". I'll have to speak to him because I remember something about the granite being thinner than the normal granite he used to use. The edges are the same thickness so when installed no-one can see the difference unless you look real close around the sink cut out. This way they can get 2 slabs out of one, therefore they are able to charge alot less.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

I just received a brochure and CD today from this place www.marble.com They are in the North Jersey area, Brochure says $42 sq ft. I haven't looked at the CD yet. 3day turnaround and 1000 colors in stock according to brochure.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Got my granite job installed today that got screwed up last Friday, customer paid over $110 sq ft when all is said and done and they are happy as clams to have paid it!


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Got my granite job installed today that got screwed up last Friday, customer paid over $110 sq ft when all is said and done and they are happy as clams to have paid it!



Hmmmm, If I could land a few of those 

Jpv123 I did not measure the thickness but it appeared to be the same? Ny guys installed the appliances and sink in the one and there was no measurable difference. 

I never did mention there is no applaince removal or decking in this price of his.
Of course that has never been included in with any of my installers.

Interesting to see the differences around the country. Having grown up in the trades up in Mass. First thing I said about Texas is when a contractor gets busy he hires more people and then cuts his prices to keep them busy. I am serious about that. I could never understand it.

I liked the Prima Donnas I used to know up north that had that "take it or leave it" attitude:laughing: 

Of course it has probably all changed up there too??


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

copusbuilder said:


> Hmmmm, If I could land a few of those


Hmmm, If I could only have had to pay what you are paying for granite!!!!!!! Yowza!


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

When I was involved in granite installs 3 years ago, it was 90 bucks a SqFt, minimum, in Austin. Don't know what it is now, though


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

copusbuilder said:


> Hmmmm, If I could land a few of those


You know what is also interesting is there is a strange human trait that we can only do what we believe we can do. There is a saying something like _if you set your sights low enough you will be guaranteed to meet them._

I've seen some funny things on sales floors, way back when I was selling cars for awhile I used to see the sales managers teach the old crusty established salesmen a lesson. This would usually take place after an old crusty got done *****'n to the manager about how the new (let's just use floor mats for example) that went up $20 from last year were impossible to sell now. The manager would teach them a lesson by demonstrating that price was irrelevant. A newbie salesman would be working a deal and he would tell the newbie "Did you know there is a $50 bonus if you sell a set of floor mats with that car today?" The newbie would ask how much the $40.00 floor mats were and the manager would answer they are on sale this month for only $80.00. Sure enough the newbie would return with his deal and the manager would ask him, did they buy the floor mats and sure enough the newbie had sold them at double the price that the old crusty salesmen and assured the manager that they would never be able to sell them at.:laughing:

It was a very, very good lesson for me to learn about selling, and especially the power of perceptions.

There's another equivalent sports metaphor that demonstrates the same thing, for centuries it was believed that no human could possibly break the 4 minute mile. And every runner verified the fact that it couldn't be done right up 1954 when Roger Bannister did it. Within the same year John Landy did it too and now it is routine and runners routinely break the sub 3:45 minute mile now. Every year after Roger Bannister broke that 4 minute barrier new runners kept breaking each others records running the mile in faster and faster times. Did human beings evolve suddenly in 1954? Nothing changed other than instead of people being convinced they couldn't do something, suddenly now everyone was convinced it was achievable and that made all the difference.

I'm not saying you could easily sell granite jobs @ $110 a square foot, but this whole conversation just reminded me of that very interesting lesson about human beings and how when we believe we can't do something we usually prove it to ourselves!


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Good point, because at $90+ a SqFt we were 3 months out on production.


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## A+Carpenter (Apr 19, 2005)

copusbuilder said:


> I suspect our healthy illegal aleinn market contibutes to the price. Heck, no taxes, health benefits, overtime etc. etc.
> One day we will all have to go to China to make a living:blink:



Ciao ming do so? Wanes Noches senior. Yeo MING CHOP CHING sui?


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> Good point, because at $90+ a SqFt we were 3 months out on production.



I priced the granite at $60 per foot on this estimate. I could probably get $90 but I'd have to throw in the cabinet painting:laughing: 

Granite has been dropping since Silestone made its run. Tied into the whole job the granite is not my big money maker but helps.

Mike, I know what you mean but must say not too many people would knowingly pay $100 a foot. Houston can be a really competitive market and if I was working on yellow page calls I would be installing it at $26 a foot and promising them a trip to Mexico on final payment. 
If I relied on working for the yellow page people I would quit and become a pimp 

I have always told the wife that I could double my sales with the younger people by using the simple line " There is a new product" Their ears perk up and they start thinking of bragging to their friends....Unfortunately for me I am just not comfortable using that line. Now if the economy gets bad and I have to work.....I will use it and promise the trip to Mexico


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

AdamMeider said:


> Ciao ming do so? Wanes Noches senior. Yeo MING CHOP CHING sui?



Ciao Ming??? is that Yao Mings brother?:jester:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

copusbuilder said:


> Mike, I know what you mean but must say not too many people would knowingly pay $100 a foot. Houston can be a really competitive market and if I was working on yellow page calls I would be installing it at $26 a foot and promising them a trip to Mexico on final payment.


Right, I understand and don't mean that there is no ceiling, everything has a ceiling and the relationship of a combiantion of your competition and your customers ability to shop price has much to do with it.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Right, I understand and don't mean that there is no ceiling, everything has a ceiling and the relationship of a combiantion of your competition and your customers ability to shop price has much to do with it.



You are quite correct in your assesment. I have dropped high prices to frighten a customer away and end up getting the job. Just seems when I keep trying it I run out of work


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