# Hickory Stair Treads



## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

My bread and butter for all these years has been the big box stores. I have encountered many staircases on these jobs and have great success in producing beautiful staircases with prefinished hardwood flooring. However, I have had few chances to work on projects involving solid treads.

This week I will be starting on the job pictured below. This is my plan:

The treads and risers are to match the hickory flooring (not shown) in the main room adjacent to this foyer. I plan to make rosin paper templates with the aid of a compass. These I will transfer to MDF templates, accounting for the overhang. After checking these on-site, I will manufacture the treads at the shop.
Esteemed members, I am calling upon your experience to shed light on the holes in my plan. How much time _should_ it take. What would _you_ charge for this project (6 curved/open, 6 pie, 6 box)? The bottom step is 8 feet at its longest point. Also, is anyone familiar with the characeristics of hickory?
Thank you in advance for your feedback. I am excited to get this assignment and am confident I will be successful. Still, I am not a Master and I am always open to suggestions.


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

dokuhaku said:


> My bread and butter for all these years has been the big box stores. I have encountered many staircases on these jobs and have great success in producing beautiful staircases with prefinished hardwood flooring. However, I have had few chances to work on projects involving solid treads.
> 
> This week I will be starting on the job pictured below. This is my plan:
> 
> ...



Hehehehe!!!


I will tell you, the bottom step alone, is going to run you almost $1000, all said and done.


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

That is my kind of money! Have you had any experience with hickory?


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

Ya, it likes to splinter when you cut it.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Fun looking job, the risers, whats your plan? maybe 3 layers of 1/4'' hickory ply. also need to finish exposed side of riser....just looked at it again, your not bending 1/4'' around that first step, for that piece only you need a skin 1/16'' veneer.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

not much room for trim around that opening after the first step riser is installed, that floor tile is NOCE TRAVERTINE, I THINK, i always liked that stone....


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

The riser is a little rough on that bottom step. I need to build it out a little for smoothness. I saw something recently called 'KerfCore' (?) that looked like a good solution. It is simply pre-kerfed risers in various thicknesses. I will go to the supplier tomorrow and price all of the wood. I really appreciate your insight, Gene. Thanks for taking the time.


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

*Its alive!*

Stair production is underway. pictured is the beginning of what will be the bottom step.
Do not be afraid, it is only Plankenstein.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Creative!

But I must say, I'm disappointed.
Clamps are tools.
You missed a perfectly good
excuse to *buy tools!* :laughing:


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

neolitic said:


> Creative!
> 
> But I must say, I'm disappointed.
> Clamps are tools.
> ...


Are you making fun of my ghetto clamps? :thumbup:


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## mrghm (Nov 19, 2006)

i would be charging in the region of 15 to 20k to supply and install, finsh those stairs,


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

mrghm said:


> i would be charging in the region of 15 to 20k to supply and install, finsh those stairs,


Thanks for looking, mrghm.
15k? :blink: 20k?? I will be posting pictures by next week of the finished steps. I can not wait to see where the group rates my installation.

15-20k... nice.


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

*Some progress images*

Thanks for looking, everybody. This is the perhaps the most demanding project I have undertaken. I welcome feedback from the community.
These are not yet installed. I was simply checking the fit. The 2nd step is bare, but the other two have a single coat of polyurethane (Dura Seal, Satin) each. I plan to do 2 coats before they are installed and a final coat after.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

It's looking good.

Are your return ends radiused or straight?

What's your plan for the skirts? Will there be a cove mold under the noses of the treads?

I would use 3/8" bending ply for the starting riser, and then face it in place with a paper backed veneer.

You likely have to custom make the shoe as well.


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

*Thank you for your input.*



ChrWright said:


> ...Are your return ends radiused or straight?.


Returns are radiused. That feature, though minor, is probably my favorite detail. Neither the GC nor the homeowner mentioned it while looking at the steps. I think it would have been _all_ they could talk about if I had made them straight.



ChrWright said:


> ...What's your plan for the skirts?...


The GC said he had a plan for the skirt after I was finished. Honestly, I find the steps challenging enough. On the curved wall, the skirt would have been completely out of my league. Hopefully I will get the chance to work with someone on a similar situation one day.




ChrWright said:


> ...Will there be a cove mold under the noses of the treads?...


The plan is to have a narrow trim run vertically, capping the end of each open riser. Aside from that, I do not plan to install a cove on the underside of the treads. What is your opinion?




ChrWright said:


> ...I would use 3/8" bending ply for the starting riser, and then face it in place with a paper backed veneer...


All along I have been imagining a 1/4" ply with a hickory veneer. Because I have not encountered such curved risers before, I do not yet know how it will play out.
Can you elaborate on 'paper-backed veneer'? In my mind I imagined installing the 1/4" thick risers, then creating a paper pattern (?) for the veneer which would be installed with contact cement. What do you think? :chinese:


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

dokuhaku said:


> Returns are radiused. That feature, though minor, is probably my favorite detail. Neither the GC nor the homeowner mentioned it while looking at the steps. I think it would have been _all_ they could talk about if I had made them straight.
> 
> _*That shows great attention to detail on your part.*_
> 
> ...


Do a google search for paper backed veneer and you'll find a lot of good information on the sizes available and the best adhesives to use.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

They sure are pretty. :thumbup::clap:
I can't claim to be an expert, since the
bottom riser especially is far more radical
than anything I have done, but steamed
and bent solid wood is what seems right to me.
Hickory is a good steaming wood, but the most 
I've done is for rocking chair parts.
Veneers on stair risers will look good, but
how long will it last?
Conversely, one could repair it over time.


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

ChrWright said:


> "The plan is to have a narrow trim run vertically, capping the end of each open riser. Aside from that, I do not plan to install a cove on the underside of the treads. What is your opinion?" -Dokuhaku
> 
> _*You're spending a lot of time and attention to detail, it seems a shame to cut corners at the end.*_.


You are correct. I am taking my time to make this look sweet and I do not intend to cut corners. I didn't think the cove would be necessary. Honestly, it always looks to me like the cove is hiding a gap between the tread and the riser. inch:
So, the absence of the cove would make it look unfinished to you? huh... I guess I will rethink it. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. This forum is really helpful. :thumbsup:


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

*Thanks Neolitic.*



neolitic said:


> ...steamed and bent solid wood is what seems right to me...


That is intriguing. I have never steamed wood, though I certainly get the idea. I suppose there would need to be a template (jig?) made for the wood to form to.
Hah! I just visualized installing a 12' long, steaming plank, drooping and dripping like a wood noodle. :laughing: (A woodle? )
That would turn a few heads.:no:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Can't see any good way to run the skirt
against that wall after the treads
either.


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

*Nah-Nah land*



jamestrd said:


> you 'll be living in La La land if you think you will get 15-20 k for that job.


Wouldn't that be sweet? 18 stairs:$20,000
:no:


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## tgeliot (Nov 1, 2008)

OK I'm not speaking from personal experience here, but from a story told to me by my big brother lo these many decades ago. Seems he was building a stairway rather like what you're doing here. For most of the pieces he created a steam chamber out of a piece of cast iron sewer pipe hooked up to some sort of boiler, but of course that bottom riser wouldn't fit in the pipe.

So he soaked the wood in water for heaven knows how long, days at least. Then he had it out in the front yard of the construction site. He poured gasoline over it, and lit it. He was swinging it back and forth, flames and gasoline flying hither and yon, when the homeowner drove up in her Volvo. Eyes as big as saucers. You gotta understand that my brother looked pretty wild on his best days, and this probably wasn't one of them. But all came out well in the end -- the wood was charred when he clamped it to the form, but eventually cleaned up nicely with a sander and the customer was well pleased. Plus she had a great story to tell her friends.

If memory serves me right this was red oak.

So have fun! Light something on fire!


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

neolitic said:


> Either a bending jig or form, or bend it in place.
> In place would make for one tricky cut though.
> Maybe Leo, or Tom R, or one of the other guys
> have more insight.
> ...


 
Sorry, I am still laughing at the clamp setups.

For the curved risers you just need to kerf the back and it will bend easily.


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

*Leo, glad you could make it!*



Leo G said:


> Sorry, I am still laughing at the clamp setups.


Are you making fun of my technique for gluing together the pieces for the bottom tread (i.e. 'Plankenstein')? :laughing:
I will admit, it made me chuckle, too. Ultimately, I was proud of my monster.



Leo G said:


> For the curved risers you just need to kerf the back and it will bend easily.


I did indeed kerf some 1/4" hickory plywood. It required some patience, but that is one thing I have plenty of. 

Leo, it is nice to get your 2¢.
Anything else I might glean from your experience with related subject matter?
:thumbup:


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

*Flame Thrower*



tgeliot said:


> ...have fun! Light something on fire!


 LOL I will leave the pyrotechnics to the pros. I wish I could have seen that!


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

*All but done*

:clap:
I will be applying 2 more coats of Dura-Seal over the next 2 days. After that I will get some good photos of all 18 stairs. Thanks for all the comments everyone.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Looks nice, did you kerf the risers to get them to bend?

And most importantly, did you make any money or was this just a learning experience for you?


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Beautiful work, thanks for sharing it with us :thumbup:


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

*Leo is all knowing*



Leo G said:


> Looks nice, did you kerf the risers to get them to bend?


Yes, I needed to kerf the riser (1/4" hickory ply) for just the tight radius of that bottom step. I made a jig for the table saw in order to get the kerfs spaced evenly. It worked like a charm.
The remaining curves were slight enough that I glued and shot them in place with 23-gauge pins.



Leo G said:


> And most importantly, did you make any money or was this just a learning experience for you?


Such insight is evidence of your experience. For a job of this scale, I made very little when it is all said and done. But I am thrilled to have had the chance to do this job and am chomping at the bit for another. I could literally do this same job again in a fraction of the time it has taken to complete the first time around. I will be doing my best to ride the wave of momentum by trying to drum up some more custom work in the days to come.
Thanks for looking, Leo.


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

*My pleasure*



genecarp said:


> Beautiful work, thanks for sharing it with us :thumbup:


Thanks for the encouragement, Gene!


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

dokuhaku said:


> Yes, I needed to kerf the riser (1/4" hickory ply) for just the tight radius of that bottom step. I made a jig for the table saw in order to get the kerfs spaced evenly. It worked like a charm.
> The remaining curves were slight enough that I glued and shot them in place with 23-gauge pins.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Been there, done that. Hope you get the next one. Before you forget how you did it.:laughing:

All I do is custom work, and a lot of it is cabinets, but no 2 are ever the same and it is always a learning experience. The job I am working on now requires a tambour door for a vanity that will hold the hair care products for the little woman of the house. I learned a few things, that .009" multiplied by 25 (slats) is almost a 1/4". I had to take apart the tambour because I trusted myself and didn't take a bunch of measurements as I was putting it together and one side was longer than the other and when I put the door in the cabinet I had a 1/4" gap on the bottom of one side. An then there are the tracks it has to ride in. No plastic here, Oak, same as the cabinets, they came out without a hitch. Did I make money on it, probably not, but like you, I now have the knowledge to do them again with efficiency. I would do it again and I would make money.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

genecarp said:


> Beautiful work, thanks for sharing it with us :thumbup:


Absolutely agree! :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## SCFoxman (Aug 26, 2008)

Very nice work. Absolutely love the finished look of Hickory.

Congrats on the fine work d:clap:


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## Mike Costello (Aug 1, 2004)

Looks really , really nice. Excellent work


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

*Alternate angles*

Side detail, view from the top and my wife and I posing to show the scale of the steps.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

Nice job man.....they are crafted beautifully.


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

jamestrd said:


> Nice job man.....they are crafted beautifully.


Thanks alot, Jamestrd. Welcome to CT.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

So it isn't you on the skate board
after all! :laughing:

Really pretty work. :thumbsup:


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## Jerry T (Sep 25, 2003)

Excellent work partner :notworthy. I still want to meet your wife ...


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Now, take part of your profits
and buy some *clamps!* :clap::laughing::laughing:


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## vaultf600 (Apr 6, 2007)

very nice work!! pipe clamps are cheap too. wouldn't even cut into your profit much:thumbsup: and you can make them long as you want. great thread all the way through your project.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

vaultf600 said:


> very nice work!! pipe clamps are cheap too. wouldn't even cut into your profit much:thumbsup: and you can make them long as you want. great thread all the way through your project.


 
I don't consider pipe clamps that inexpensive. as a single unit they my not be all that expensive but you need to buy them in multi pairs to have enough to do the job. I usually use the 1/2" Pony heads, I can get them at Coastal Tool for about $9 each, black pipe is about $2/ft so a 10' section is $20. Usually I make 3 sections of clamps out of one pipe, two 42" and one 36". This means I need 3 heads. so now we're up to $47. 3 clamps will let you clam a board around 30" long. His bottom stair tread was about 6' long which means he is going to need about $120 in clamps to do it. Although $120 doesn't seem like much, it will take a good bite out of your profit. Especially if this is "learning" profit. The only good thing is the clamps, as long as you don't lose them, will be with you for a very long time. It took me years to buy the clamps necessary to go around in circles. That is, by the time the first set of glue ups is dry I can start taking those clamps off and reusing them. Most stuff stays in the clamps for 1 hour and it usually takes me about 6 minutes to glue (my average) something up. Lots of clamps.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Leo G said:


> I don't consider pipe clamps that inexpensive..... The only good thing is the clamps, as long as you don't lose them, will be with you for a very long time. It took me years to buy the clamps necessary to go around in circles. That is, by the time the first set of glue ups is dry I can start taking those clamps off and reusing them..... Lots of clamps.


Clamps are one thing I never seem 
to quit buying.....*always* need
more clamps! :laughing:


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

neolitic said:


> So it isn't you on the skate board
> after all! :laughing:
> 
> Really pretty work. :thumbsup:


Actually, that is my son cruising the log board. Check him out here, cruising a wood project we designed together: http://dokuhaku.deviantart.com/art/LOnG-Board-22875104

Now THAT is some genius woodworking right there! :laughing:


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## vaultf600 (Apr 6, 2007)

leo ... i get 9 bucks x 6 head units =$54
2, 20' pieces of pipe= 40
total 94 dollars for 6 camps. either way they are twice as much as rachet straps which we all have in the back of our trucks. I have used straps for the same thing but it is nice to have a clamp. expecially one that you can buy more pipe for at any size and make it work later if need be. oh well cheap compaired to bessys and expensive compaired to a one time use.


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

*Great advice*



vaultf600 said:


> very nice work!! pipe clamps are cheap too. wouldn't even cut into your profit much:thumbsup: and you can make them long as you want. great thread all the way through your project.


Pipe clamps were definitelty the missing item on this job. I will be investing in some for (god willing) the next project of this size. Thanks for the input and the kind words! :thumbup:


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## dokuhaku (Sep 15, 2008)

Leo G said:


> I don't consider pipe clamps that inexpensive. as a single unit they my not be all that expensive but you need to buy them in multi pairs to have enough to do the job. I usually use the 1/2" Pony heads, I can get them at Coastal Tool for about $9 each, black pipe is about $2/ft so a 10' section is $20. Usually I make 3 sections of clamps out of one pipe, two 42" and one 36". This means I need 3 heads. so now we're up to $47. 3 clamps will let you clam a board around 30" long. His bottom stair tread was about 6' long which means he is going to need about $120 in clamps to do it. Although $120 doesn't seem like much, it will take a good bite out of your profit. Especially if this is "learning" profit. The only good thing is the clamps, as long as you don't lose them, will be with you for a very long time. It took me years to buy the clamps necessary to go around in circles. That is, by the time the first set of glue ups is dry I can start taking those clamps off and reusing them. Most stuff stays in the clamps for 1 hour and it usually takes me about 6 minutes to glue (my average) something up. Lots of clamps.


awesome, thoughtful responses.


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