# Plumber was only here for a day part II



## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

The other thread got closed cause you guys can't seem to stay civil. Anyway, here is my fix. Building inspector said not to worry about the holes anyway. Plumber hasn't been back yet, so we'll see what he says.


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

Now I'm starting to get worried. Going to have a little conversation with the guy running the hole saw. Engineer ran the numbers and said no fix required for joist. How he did this is beyond me. The subfloor that he cut through actually had a nail in it going into the joist.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

I'm sure you know to have that engineer give you a letter saying that. 

Definitely talk to the guy with the hole saw. 

I had a company years ago on a project that I was GC on that the head plumbing guy drilled a 5" hole in my i-joists, through 8 of them. Directly under the ends under bearing walls. I was livid to say the least.


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## smeagol (May 13, 2008)

he ripped your squash blocks out too?


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

No, he didn't remove any squash blocks. He just put a kerf into them. He did however drill through the flange in the I joist. The more I think about it, the more I need to check with the engineer to make sure he knows the situation. I've got a middle man with distributor. He could have f'ed something up


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## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm thinking about introducing a new law in MI that sawsalls be illegal for any plumber to possess, use or even think about using. After reading this thread maybe I'll have to include hole saws. :thumbsup:


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## DeBergo (Nov 8, 2009)

I ran across this a few days back. That is a 2x10 they notched the bottom out to fit the 3" waste across. It's 18 feet of run to that end. Guess I should be happy they put a hanger on what was left


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## 422 plumber (Mar 21, 2010)

I know, stupid plumbers! For some stupid reason, they try want all their dwv pipes to slope in the same direction. If those idiots would just go under joists instead of thru them, carpenters, GCs and engineers wouldn't have to worry about building a fricking house that those crybabies could plumb to a dumb thing they call "code."


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

422 plumber said:


> I know, stupid plumbers! For some stupid reason, they try want all their dwv pipes to slope in the same direction. If those idiots would just go under joists instead of thru them, carpenters, GCs and engineers wouldn't have to worry about building a fricking house that those crybabies could plumb to a dumb thing they call "code."


There are ways to do that and meet the structural code as well. 

You need to know more than "Sh!t runs downhill" to be a competent plumber.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

422 plumber said:


> I know, stupid plumbers! For some stupid reason, they try want all their dwv pipes to slope in the same direction. If those idiots would just go under joists instead of thru them, carpenters, GCs and engineers wouldn't have to worry about building a fricking house that those crybabies could plumb to a dumb thing they call "code."



For new houses I just bring the Bobcat with the backhoe attachment and head out to the backyard, dig a pit, and build my one door shed over it, then I go inside and count the bedrooms so that I can make the right size crescent cutout in the door to meet code.

It beats the hell out of dealing with all the bother of putting the crapper inside the house, there is just way to much stuff in the way.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

im a artist with a sawzall...i cut flange holes so perfect it looks like i used a hole saw


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*I don't know what this thread is about, but.....*

A good carpenter does his framing to accommodate the installation of the plumbing. The carpenter needs to build the headers for the drain piping and the carpenter needs to install the studs so the drains can be installed in the center, left, or right location as necessary for each fixture. Good framers make changes to their work to accomodate the plumber without complaining because installing plumbing the correct way is usually much more difficult that making a few changes to the wood. 

As for cutting holes, we literally use a chain saw for installing gas pipes when we do new construction. We install the gas pipes on the top of the floor joists before the 2nd floor is installed, or on top of the ceiling joist. We chalk string the joists, install a stop on the chain saw, run the chain saw across the top of each joists a few times. and knock out the slot with a screw driver. The results are picture-perfect.


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## Smatt (Feb 22, 2011)

Let's talk about the way things are done.
A standard tub is how long. Sixty inches,that's right that damn dimension has not changed in a hundred years. So tell me why no one can get this right. Is it the architects fault the framer,oh that's right I am sorry it is of course the plumbers fault is always are fault no one else has the balls to man up,except the plumber.

Another point is when walls get framed for a tub or shower they start the studs at 16" from the corner and that is smack dab in the middle of my valve. No one seems to care if we were all as proficient at what we do as we think we are,we could all coincide much better.

I always move my own studs,head off my toilets,put studs backhand electrical wires to get my tubs in the house. Have even on occasion pulled the stairs out of a stairwell in order to get the tub upstairs and put it back together. Even had to pull the sheathing and studs off of an outside wall to get the tub upstairs on the second floor, and once again put it back together.

Which once again was the plumbers fault. BECAUSE the G/C or SUPER has poor planning. Everybody wants to be a builder now I see why. They can do no wrong. 

My skill set goes far beyond plumbing. You have to now a days to be competitive. This is the profession I chose. I like doing what I do, it's what everybody else does/doesn't do that sucks the life out of me. 



This is not to offend the people that actually take their job seriously, or their job to the next level. This is for the people who are bodies to collect a paycheck. These carbon dioxide makers,put a bad taste in everybody's mouth with no reprieve. Every place has them it is time to trim the fat,cut the dead weight and take a breath of fresh air.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Smatt said:


> This is for the people who are bodies to collect a paycheck. These carbon dioxide makers,put a bad taste in everybody's mouth with no reprieve. Every place has them it is time to trim the fat,cut the dead weight and take a breath of fresh air.


I agree with that. All trades screw up, and the world is full of Superintendents who think they are swinging d!cks and won't take responsibility for their own screw ups and poor planning. 

My point is that structural trumps plumbing, and I have seen plumbers (and electricians and HVAC and sprinkler fitters) cut out or cut into critical members of structures without asking anybody, when they could have easily gone another route. If there is really no way to get from point A to point B, then that should be pointed out to whoever is in charge, and a solution worked out before the structural integrity is compromised.


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## Smatt (Feb 22, 2011)

mudpad said:


> I agree with that. All trades screw up, and the world is full of Superintendents who think they are swinging d!cks and won't take responsibility for their own screw ups and poor planning.
> 
> My point is that structural trumps plumbing, and I have seen plumbers (and electricians and HVAC and sprinkler fitters) cut out or cut into critical members of structures without asking anybody, when they could have easily gone another route. If there is really no way to get from point A to point B, then that should be pointed out to whoever is in charge, and a solution worked out before the structural integrity is compromised.


This is also what happens when you take the lowest bid. You get what you pay for. 

This is also the difference in a mediocre plumber and a good one. This also is true when in submitting a bid you do not know what you get. As a bidder I can't put my knowledge into the bid. 

When some one is competent at what they do you get a great job done. Any profession, the bottom line. I can say personally I have never, I say never cut a structural beam. I have asked and been told yes, I say I want an engineered drawing signed before I do so CYA.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

It's rare a stud is in the way for me on tubs, and it's rare it doesn't fit. It's also rare a joist is in the way of a toilet.

The reason is I do work for quality GC's. This isn't a mystery fellas and blambing a specific trade is pointless. Quality sits on the shoulders of individuals not profession. If plumbers don't like studs in the way than change GCs. If the GC doesn't like the way a certain plumber cuts holes then change plumbers because plenty of top notch plumbers are available.

To show photos of YOUR plumber doing this makes me question you more than it does the plumber.

In the 90's I worked for a builder that fired the carpenter is a stud was in the middle of a tub and he fired the carpenter if a joist was center of the toilet. Likewise he would fore me if I hacked out a joist. This builder is one of the few that are still doing well to this very day.........that's quality. He didn't put photos up online and ***** about the trade however....he was busy fixing the real problem.

If I se a joist in the way I tell my GC and he fixes it so I can work. What's hard to understand about that? I suggest making better decisions on who you partner with because new construction is a partnership. 

Moral of the story.......blame yourself.

Mike


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Mike, limited supply of plumbers on the island that the op lives and works on.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I guess many places do it different than we do here in Albuquerque. Our floor framing plan shows every stick, every joist. If a joist interferes with a plumbing location it's the designers fault, it was his job to insure the plumbing did not fall on a joist. 

I switched to designing with engineered trusses about 15 years ago. The truss manufacturer gets the plans with a set of truss designs on it. Each truss is designed with supports at any bearing locations and dimensioned duct chases. When the tinner comes in all the chases line up perfectly, no offsets. The plumber has large openings for his dwv so he can properly install without cutting anything. I went to standardizing on a 24" tall truss. The duct chase accommodates an insulated 16" round pipe. 

When the tinner and plumber are doing their top outs (tinner finishes before plumber starts) I am on the job to insure everything fits and nothing the tinner does will preclude the plumber from doing his installation. Then, it works. 

Engineered trusses cost more. They also solve many problems before they come up. Dimension lumber for joists is just asking for problems. 

I used TJI's for a while prior to the engineered trusses. When the Tinner and Plumber were doing their layout I was on the job with my notebook and the software locating holes in legal locations. If the tinner or plumber are left alone to locate and cut holes the problems belong to the GC. Expecting a tinner or plumber to understand structure is probably to much in most cases. There are two ways for the trades to learn how to deal with structure, a guy who understands it can walk them through it under all the various scenarios or, they will learn from their mistakes. If you would rather they not make mistakes on your house then be there to walk them through it. It's easy to say, after the mistake is made, he should have asked, but if the GC or his competent representative is not on site when the question comes up, it can't happen.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

That's exactly it, that's the partnership that has to happen. Almost every problem can be traced to failure in communication of some sort. 

Even if you live on an island and only have one plumber to pick from the job still has to be done right.....whatever that takes.

I just hate threads where people show issues with other trades. After all what's the point? What's the goal? 
Mike


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## 422 plumber (Mar 21, 2010)

mudpad said:


> There are ways to do that and meet the structural code as well.
> 
> You need to know more than "Sh!t runs downhill" to be a competent plumber.


Nah,
I put in shiznit pipe. Framing issues and pipe chases ain't my problem. I gotta get my pipe from Point A to Point B. You should have thought about the mechanicals. Not me.


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