# How do I bid prevailing wage?



## sourkrause

Hi everyone. I am new to this site and am hoping that someone will finally be able to help me with a problem. I am a wallcovering contractor here in CA and trying to make the transition from primarily residential to primarily commercial. I have been bidding jobs but got stuck when it comes to prevailing wage. I understand the concept, but don't know how to get started or how to qualify to begin bidding. If someone can leet me know what steps I need to take to begin pursuing these projects, can you please fill me in.


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## Bob Kovacs

There shouldn't really be any "steps to follow" unless the particular project requires you to hold a license or certificate in order to bid on that work (many government agencies require this). Otherwise, you simply need to get a copy of the prevailing wage rates and benefits costs for paperhangers in your county, and make sure to use those rates when preparing your bid. Once you win the job, be prepared to provide certified payroll to prove that you're paying the proper amounts, so make sure you include $$ in your bid for the additional paperwork and accounting time.


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## K2

sourkrause said:


> Hi everyone. I am new to this site and am hoping that someone will finally be able to help me with a problem. I am a wallcovering contractor here in CA and trying to make the transition from primarily residential to primarily commercial. I have been bidding jobs but got stuck when it comes to prevailing wage. I understand the concept, but don't know how to get started or how to qualify to begin bidding. If someone can leet me know what steps I need to take to begin pursuing these projects, can you please fill me in.


Find out what wht projects are up foir bid. That should be public info posted somewhere, ( contracts office), on the military base etc, etc. Find out what gc's are bidding on the projects and contact them. Find a retired contracts man that represented that base and see if he/she might consult you. I thew an ad in the paper one time for an experienced govt. contracts person and got a lot of response and a lot of free advice. .. As a gc there are lots of hoops, half of which you can ignore, and the other half you had better get right.


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## JSC

The only difference between PW jobs and others is the hourly rate, and the nuisance factor of paperwork and jobsite interviewers stopping your crew and asking them questions about their pay rate, etc. The pay rate for your craft is usually part of the job documents, but may also be obtained on the Dept of Labor website. Overtime rates are strictly enforced, as are proper work classification rates. A word of advice: If there is a labor rate change at any time for the duration of the job, you will have to pay the higher rate from then on.


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## K2

Prevailing wage is not always something to write home about as is the case in my city. With no Union presence for certain trades around here the PW is researched and set off the existing non union scale which ain't much. For painters, paper hangers, drywallers, and grid guys, pw is at about 16 to 18 bucks an hour. The local trades where there is at least some union presence, (therefore setting the pw), the pw is double or triple. ... Disgraceful in my opinion. ... People that complain about unions should come to Non-Unionsville and see how they like it.


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## knucklehead

K2 said:


> Prevailing wage is not always something to write home about as is the case in my city. With no Union presence for certain trades around here the PW is researched and set off the existing non union scale which ain't much. For painters, paper hangers, drywallers, and grid guys, pw is at about 16 to 18 bucks an hour. The local trades where there is at least some union presence, (therefore setting the pw), the pw is double or triple. ... Disgraceful in my opinion. ... People that complain about unions should come to Non-Unionsville and see how they like it.


Wow! I just bid to frame a fire station and the scale for carpenters is 48.00.Which is about twice what I normally pay. So that is how I bid it. I figured what I would normally do it for , then doubled that plus an extra couple of grand for redtape.


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## cleveman

Look up the bid tabs on old jobs and bid accordingly.

Bid a small job first and bid it to get it. If you get it and lose money on it, at least you will know what it takes the next time. And the next time you won't lose money on a big job.


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## easymoney

Yeah I like Knucklehead's method best, another thing to remember... you'll be out of pocket for about 90 days, A project we worked on some 10 years ago, took 120 days to be paid in full, man when people talk about "red tape" they mean it. plan for the worst, and if you don't think you have the capital... best not start the job, your not likely to be able to get an emergency 'bailout' if you get in trouble! -- sure fire way to go under quick and painful!


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## K2

> you'll be out of pocket for about 90 days


That's not true in all cases. I know some projects that can get paid 15 days from completion and I know of some subs that get weekly draws from the gc.


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## KennMacMoragh

Bringing back an old thread :thumbup1:

I recently had a GC send prints to me for bidding on a prevailing wage framing job. I have never bid a prevailing wage job before. So if I understand this right, I can bid the job at whatever price I want, but I have to pay all of my guys the minimum prevailing wage hourly rate set by the state?

I looked up the prevailing wage for a journeyman carpenter in Washington which is $48.47. An experienced framer in my area generally gets paid about $15 to $18 an hour. A typical bid for a frame is about $6.50 to $7.00 a sq. ft. So in order to bid on a prevailing wage job, I would have to take the difference in wages, say $48.47/$18 = 2.69 and multiply that ratio by a typical $7.00/sq. ft. giving me 2.69 * 7 = 18.85. So I'd have to charge $18.85/sq. ft. as opposed to $7.00/sq. ft. on a non-prevailing wage framing job? Am I on the right track? Seems so out of wack.


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## Framer53

Sounds like you have it. 

Remember the part is that you should make more also!!!


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## oldfrt

Try this site for bidding opportunities
and results:

http://www.bidclerk.com/index.html


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## JustaFramer

KennMacMoragh said:


> Bringing back an old thread :thumbup1:
> 
> I recently had a GC send prints to me for bidding on a prevailing wage framing job. I have never bid a prevailing wage job before. So if I understand this right, I can bid the job at whatever price I want, but I have to pay all of my guys the minimum prevailing wage hourly rate set by the state?
> 
> I looked up the prevailing wage for a journeyman carpenter in Washington which is $48.47. An experienced framer in my area generally gets paid about $15 to $18 an hour. A typical bid for a frame is about $6.50 to $7.00 a sq. ft. So in order to bid on a prevailing wage job, I would have to take the difference in wages, say $48.47/$18 = 2.69 and multiply that ratio by a typical $7.00/sq. ft. giving me 2.69 * 7 = 18.85. So I'd have to charge $18.85/sq. ft. as opposed to $7.00/sq. ft. on a non-prevailing wage framing job? Am I on the right track? Seems so out of wack.



Is it prevailing wage residential or commercial? There is two different rates.


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## KennMacMoragh

JustaFramer said:


> Is it prevailing wage residential or commercial? There is two different rates.


Commercial, it's a water district. Where do you find the two different rates? I only see one I would assume all public works jobs are commercial, the government doesn't build houses do they?


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## JustaFramer

KennMacMoragh said:


> Commercial, it's a water district. Where do you find the two different rates? I only see one I would assume all public works jobs are commercial, the government doesn't build houses do they?



Looks like they don't post it anymore. There is or was a difference. And yes the government does build houses. The everett housing authority used to hire carpenters at residential rates. I do know that residential prevailing wage rates haven't been reviewed since Reagan was in office. There supposedly being reviewed and updated by the current labor department.


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## griz

KennMacMoragh said:


> Commercial, it's a water district. Where do you find the two different rates? I only see one I would assume all public works jobs are commercial, the government doesn't build houses do they?


Ken, yes the govt. does build houses. Look at the funnies very carefully, prevailing wage stuff is usually way *different* than any residential/commercial codes you may have dealt with. Watch closely for spec'd hardware, excessive blocking/nailing schedules & common nails. *READ* the specs carefully that you don't have to pre drill nail holes to prevent splitting. Make certain you understand what types/grades of lumber & plywood are being spec'd. Don't forget clerical wages to prepare the *certified payroll* & the multitude of paperwork that goes with these jobs. Be very familiar with the RFI/RFP process & it's flow through management. *NOTHING* gets answered overnight. Also read the specs for any type of anchors that may need independent testing & who pays for it.


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## KennMacMoragh

Thanks Griz, yeah the specs they sent me are 881 pages :blink:

It's a small building too, only one story. It's basically a big garage with a small office attached. They had a geological survey done, require performance, payment bonds, stick framed roof. I am still searching for things like you pointed out. This whole job will cost them about three times what it actually should. But it's all our tax payer money so I guess they don't care.


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## FramerGC

This is my first time bidding a framing job with the prevailing rate. My question is: How to structure the bid? Do you show the amount of time each Foreman/Journeyman is expected to take on the job. Then for each multiply by the rate for each and show the numbers that way. OR bid the job as you would any other with just a lump sum. Obviously keeping in mind the rate you must pay your men, through certified payroll sources. Thank You if you know the answer. Bidding my first rate job near the Jersey Shore


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## griz

For your bid you will need to know how many man hours at what rate. Unless asked for differently your bid should be the lump sum. Read the bid form carefully and only submit what is asked for.


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## FramerGC

*For Griz*

For figuring my cost I need to know the the total it will cost me for each man to complete the job! Do I have to itemize each employee's proposed time and total, then add those numbers to my profit and give a total? Or just my bid price alone? This may seem silly, but i am a bit lost here. The first time is always the hardest. Thank you for any future help.


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## griz

Unless your bid docs ask for a break down (unusual) just give your total price for the job. If you are working with a union find out about the apprentices they require and if there is a Community Benefit Agreement (CBA) in place. Don't forget administrative cost for certified payroll. Are there any bond requirements?


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## AngryHammer

I'm not sure i get this.. You guys are saying say prevailing wage rate is like $48/hr (about same here in NY) but are'nt you forgetting the benefits we need to include on top of wage? Or is that not the case. I was told to bid about $95/hr for prevailing wage for nassau county on LI,NY. Then add O&P...Is this wrong?


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## Anti-wingnut

You're replying to a five year old thread. But never the less, PW is the calculated on the total cost of an equivalent union worker. So if an BM got $39/hr, with a health plan and pension contribution of $8/hr, the PW for a boilermaker would be $47/hr.

From this $47, you could subtract your true cost of the contributions you make to your employees health, pension(s) and profit sharing. These must be able to be verified. You need all the numbers, you can't make this stuff up.


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## trussme

Office employees, and the owner do not have to be paid prevailing wage. (in my state, check yours)


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## trussme

Wish I read post #23 first


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## gfourth

Yep our guys make $62/hr (ironworker), but our burden is about $110/hr. Then add WC to that (we are also blessed with one of the highest rates...) and we're over $135 an hour per man.

We also have to request union apprentices on our pw jobs. So sometimes they send one and we never know what kinda person we're gonna get. We have to request an apprentice for 1 out of 5 field hours on the job. And heaven forbid we forget to request one, the union can rain down hell on us.


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## gfourth

Oh and don't forget the extra office time for completing certified payroll weekly...


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## AngryHammer

gfourth said:


> Oh and don't forget the extra office time for completing certified payroll weekly...


What do you add for this...


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## utahcontractor

Prevailing wage in califonia is a non-starter for me. We did a lot of that type of work in high end homes, and I was very well acquainted with MANY collegues who had been involved in prevailing wage wallcovering/painting jobs, in CA. You will be bidding against many who will lie, cheat, and steal their way to a bid. I never ONCE bothered bidding on that stuff. But, to give you an example of what I knew went on (and yes, guys usually eventually get caught and get their license yanked and jail time,....., but that doesn't happen until they've already taken the life out of any honest bid.
For example.:
pay guys near minimum wage and have them work 12/7 s and then pay them on paper what looks like lower hours at prevailing wage. (BY THE WAY,..LAST I HEARD, WHICH WAS 15 YEARS AGO,..PREVAILING WAGE IN LA WAS AROUND 30 BUCKS AN HOUR...MIGHT BE MORE LIKE 50 NOW.)
Pay off whoever will take a payoff..to look the other way.

It is mostly the union that, because it's in their interest,..is involved in catching cheaters.

In a "coatings" bid (commercial/public jobs only). I could swear it seemed like more often that not that the contractor would be paying off an inspector to say he did the required 2 coats when in reality it was 1 coat. One man that worked for me told me his old boss (this was in the 1990s),..had been paying about $30,000 per year cash to different city officials and sending them to vegas etc.,..to keep the jobs coming in. This particular man ended up in Jail, but I think he was at it for a few years before he got nailed. 
Good luck on going commercial. If you can make an honest go of it good for you. For me, I never thought it was worht trying so I stuck with the beverly hills type stuff.


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## trussme

gfourth said:


> Yep our guys make $62/hr (ironworker), but our burden is about $110/hr. Then add WC to that (we are also blessed with one of the highest rates...) and we're over $135 an hour per man.
> 
> We also have to request union apprentices on our pw jobs. So sometimes they send one and we never know what kinda person we're gonna get. We have to request an apprentice for 1 out of 5 field hours on the job. And heaven forbid we forget to request one, the union can rain down hell on us.


Yep.......But don't let us think you're getting the same price for the job. And for the post above, office workers and the owner are excluded from all scale pay.


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## RH*carpenter

To all

Contractors and subcontractors do not bid labor. They get reimbursed for their labor costs. That is the purpose of certification. The purpose of seemingly high wages for mechanics is to discourage those who operate on a shoestring and do not have sufficient means. Prevailing wages under the Miller Act are minimums that must be paid. Mechanics can charge more than the minimum. All mechanics and materialmen employed by contractors and subcontractors is on a cost plus basis. The plus is the contractor's or subcontractor's contract price. Read the Miller Act. 

To better understand this one only need to understand lien laws. Where I live, Arizona, the lien laws contemplate two conditions under which labor and materials may be furnished for the construction, alteration, or repair of buildings and other structures: First, at the instance of the property owner; Or, second, at the instance of the owner's agent. All contractors and subcontractors are deemed agents of the owner. That is typical of lien laws all over the country and of lien laws that date back well over 150 years. Arizona's contractor licensing laws require that these agents be licensed. If you understand what an agent is then you can understand the Miller Act. Contractors and subcontractors are government agents on federal projects.


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## trussme

That's a reach


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## RH*carpenter

Trussme

Suppose a man acts as painting contractor on his own house. He solicits labor bids from 5 painters. He gets two fixed prices and three hourly rates. He then get bids from paint suppliers who all give him a price per gallon. 

Second scenario. He gets bids from five painting contractors. What will their bids be. Since they are neither mechanics nor materialmen they can't bid labor and they can't bid materials. It is absurd to think that they bid someone else's labor or materials. So what do their bids look like? Hint. In the first scenario where the owner acts as contractor there is only the cost of labor and materials but no fee.


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