# Difference between sleeping loft and second story



## gforcepdx (Mar 2, 2015)

I've got an small guest room in Portland, Oregon in need of a sleeping loft. Unsure if anything above the ceiling joist is considered a second story addition (permit required?) With attic clearances at the peak of 5'3'' you can't stand. By accessing the attic cavity though, I'd be adding a space 6'x7' with 3' knee walls on two sides. Ladder access of course, no staircase with a single window, lights and a couple of outlets. 

This seemed straight forward until I considered the ceiling joist. Uncertain if anything ABOVE them is a second story or not. I'm not finding much googling "loft construction." Seems like a grey area.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/bds/38148
Download the converting attics handout

For obvious reasons, you can't do this legitimately.


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

A permit, And inspections


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Yep, and if by some miracle you get it by the planning department, they will hit you with a nice hefty fee for their schools as well. Anytime you add living space, they get a big payday relative to the size. Last one I did was a 250 dollar additional fee to the permit to enclose a 6 x 11 covered porch.


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## bwiab (Mar 17, 2006)

I don't know what the local jurisdiction says, but from the 2012 IRC

MEZZANINE, LOFT. An intermediate level or levels between the floor and ceiling of any story with an aggregate floor area of not more than one-third of the area of the room or space in which the level or levels are located. 

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/icod_irc_2012_3_sec004.htm

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/icod_irc_2012_3_sec005.htm


That being said, existing buildings don't necessarily fall under the IRC.


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## gforcepdx (Mar 2, 2015)

Golden view said:


> https://www.portlandoregon.gov/bds/38148
> Download the converting attics handout
> 
> For obvious reasons, you can't do this legitimately.


Lots of good information in that brochure. Thank you. When you say "for obvious reasons" you're referring to the 70 sq of floor and ceiling requirements, not to mention the call out for a stair. I can see that. 

Would that mean then that many of the loft additions I see online haven't been permitted? I never thought anything without a proper staircase was code anyway, but you do see a lot of it around. 

Let me ask a different question but in the same vein. I'm guessing it could be easier to simply vault the room. That is, remove the ceiling joists and run insulation and drywall to the rafters. I ask because it seems its the ceiling joists tripping me up.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

gforcepdx said:


> By accessing the attic cavity though, I'd be adding a space 6'x7' with 3' knee walls on two sides.


A friend of mine did that in his townhouse but because it was a managed condo community in a planned unit development, the attic was considered to be common space and he had to tear it all down when he was trying to sell his house.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

gforcepdx said:


> Lots of good information in that brochure. Thank you. When you say "for obvious reasons" you're referring to the 70 sq of floor and ceiling requirements, not to mention the call out for a stair. I can see that.
> 
> Would that mean then that many of the loft additions I see online haven't been permitted? I never thought anything without a proper staircase was code anyway, but you do see a lot of it around.
> 
> Let me ask a different question but in the same vein. I'm guessing it could be easier to simply vault the room. That is, remove the ceiling joists and run insulation and drywall to the rafters. I ask because it seems its the ceiling joists tripping me up.


Maybe even a mix of the two. If you could remove half the joists, then it's more like a loft or mezzanine than a new room. You'll need an engineer to approve removing ceiling joists, which generally are what holds the rafters from spreading apart.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Many loft and attic projects also fail egress/rescue opening requirements.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Many loft and attic projects also fail egress/rescue opening requirements.


That was the main reason of my concern.


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## Chopsaw Chick (May 6, 2011)

Uh, there's no way you're a GC if you're asking these questions. . . 

But for future reference, in most jurisdictions - and especially in cities like Portland - you need a permit to replace a light fixture with anything other than the exact same light fixture. You certainly need a permit(s), architectural plans, possibly engineering and heat loss calcs if you are adding to existing living space. Go to your local building services dept and the folks there will be happy to take your money and give you some advice. My advice would be to hire an experienced contractor in your area who has done this type of project before.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Chopsaw Chick said:


> Uh, there's no way you're a GC if you're asking these questions. . .


I'm thinking you have this one...

To the OP, you aren't adding a second floor, since nothing you do with 5' 3" of headroom will be habitable, and it's impossible to put a conforming stairway in. These are very basic violations.

If you want habitable space, pop that roof up, but remember you'll be losing sqft on the first floor to put in the stairs.


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## darthdude (Dec 30, 2012)

Technically almost everything requires a permit. What you are asking about, to do correctly, also should include engineering and proper plans/permitting. Its up to you if you wish to do some work without such official measures.:whistling


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## gforcepdx (Mar 2, 2015)

It sounds to me then that in reference to these other lofts I've seen online, they are not likely permitted as living spaces but have been called "storage areas" instead. The genesis of my interest had to do with ceiling joists as a sort of legal line I'd be crossing in rising above them with finished space. So for legal egress, this would be a violation. But in vaulting a portion of the room... 

I think I've got it.


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