# GAF Liberty SBS problems



## roofpro350 (May 20, 2008)

Install approx. 100 sq. of GAF self adhered Liberty base sheet and cap sheet over ISO insulation. Base sheet seams are failing and not adhering as specified. Many roof leaks, GAF has said materials are with-in their specification but was willing to change over to GAF APP membrane. Anyone have any similiar problems?


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## jamesfl (Sep 4, 2007)

We use SBS here in florida, I thought APP was used up north only. Is this why GAF wants to now switch to APP instead of the SBS you applied?


James


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## A W Smith (Oct 14, 2007)

roofpro350 said:


> Install approx. 100 sq. of GAF self adhered Liberty base sheet and cap sheet over ISO insulation. Base sheet seams are failing and not adhering as specified. Many roof leaks, GAF has said materials are with-in their specification but was willing to change over to GAF APP membrane. Anyone have any similiar problems?


 
Used 10 square of that crap on a small 1/2 on 12 almost flat roof about 7 years ago. Every roll was belled at the ends. job looked like hell because of the seam edges washboard curling. I will never ever use it again.


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## roofpro350 (May 20, 2008)

jamesfl said:


> We use SBS here in florida, I thought APP was used up north only. Is this why GAF wants to now switch to APP instead of the SBS you applied?
> 
> 
> James


James, No GAF wants to switch to APP because the seams on the self adhered SBS will not seal on the cap sheet or base sheet. They are reinbursing us for the additional labor.


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## BULLHART (Oct 14, 2006)

You know its funny that that's true. APP is much better suited for the south and SBS for the North. But it sells adversely.


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## broj80 (Oct 23, 2008)

roofpro350-

I have a project where the Liberty SBS self-adhering cap sheet seams won't adhere. Did you have any problems with the cap sheet? Also, GAF isn't being very proactive. Did you have any problems with GAF? How did you get them to agree to provide the material for the APP system and to reinbusre you for the cost of labor?


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## roofpro350 (May 20, 2008)

Yes, we did have problems with the base sheet, that was the main problem. After many leaks GAF sent their rep out to investigate and found the base sheet to be with in their standards but had no answer. This project had a roof consultant on site and with over $35,000 in damages the owner lost all confidence in GAF. Their recommedation was to change to APP. And yes the cap sheet wasn't adhering at the seams very well.

Still waiting for GAF to make this right, they have assured us they will, I have heard other contractors with problems and they have always helped out the contractor, not the customer.:whistling


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Personally I have never used GAF's SA product. I have used Certainteeds with great success. On 100 squares I don't think I'd be proposing SA due to price restrictions. 

What temprature was it when you insalled the material? I am confused about the base sheet seams failing. Afterall wouldn't it be the cap sheets job to keep the water out? Did you use hot air or emulsion on the seams and penetrations? Are the failures in ponding areas?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

BULLHART said:


> You know its funny that that's true. APP is much better suited for the south and SBS for the North. But it sells adversely.


Bull, how so? While I know there are torchable SBS's, almost all torch mod bits are APP's. INversely the same is true, while there are torchable SBS's most sbs is cold applied or self adhering. Over here people don't do cold process because let's face it, at the end of the day who wants to look like a chimney sweep or like a tarp pit monster or a coal miner? If you can't see where I am going with this, it's dirty! 

Am I missing something in your comment? P.S. I don't know of any APP SA.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

roofpro350 said:


> Yes, we did have problems with the base sheet, that was the main problem. After many leaks GAF sent their rep out to investigate and found the base sheet to be with in their standards but had no answer. This project had a roof consultant on site and with over $35,000 in damages the owner lost all confidence in GAF. Their recommedation was to change to APP. And yes the cap sheet wasn't adhering at the seams very well.
> 
> Still waiting for GAF to make this right, they have assured us they will, I have heard other contractors with problems and they have always helped out the contractor, not the customer.:whistling


I thought GAF made the best roofing products in the world? Oh, they just sell the most, LOL!!! Good thing they got Home Depot in there back pocket.


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## roofpro350 (May 20, 2008)

Grumpy said:


> Personally I have never used GAF's SA product. I have used Certainteeds with great success. On 100 squares I don't think I'd be proposing SA due to price restrictions.
> 
> What temprature was it when you insalled the material? I am confused about the base sheet seams failing. Afterall wouldn't it be the cap sheets job to keep the water out? Did you use hot air or emulsion on the seams and penetrations? Are the failures in ponding areas?


The temperature was between 75 and 90 degress, and yes there was ponding water. The consutant want the base sheet utilized as a temp roof until the cap sheet was installed.


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## Joe the Roofer (Dec 16, 2008)

*More GAF Liberty SBS problems*

We installed 160sqs of Liberty SA cap and base sheet on flat reroof. The seams on either product did not bind until heated by the sun for several days. Unfortunately, we got rain day during remove and replace and roof leaked continuously for about two weeks, causing 65 to 75 K in interior damage.

GAF rep conveniently pointed finger at install method and wont help at all.

Sad but true.
Joe the Roofer.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

BULLHART said:


> You know its funny that that's true. APP is much better suited for the south and SBS for the North. But it sells adversely.


HOOAH! Bull.

I only use SBS up here in New York.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Addendum: 

But I avoid GAF products like the plague! 

:laughing:


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## roofthink7 (Dec 3, 2008)

we have used torch applied and we like both the app and sbs. The sbs is stronger the first 10 years, but then the membrane will spider crack and start to deteriorate quicker than the app. We put down tamko awa torch sbs, a very strong material and we have put down a bunch of Derbigum, we been in business almost 30 years and the support from Derbigum has been very poor, they have problems with their Derbicolor but don't want to admit anything, just give you material...I still say a 4-ply tar & gravel is the way, but a tough sell in todays world, of tpo's, modified's, epdm, and even restorations...


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## buildpinnacle (Sep 2, 2008)

jamesfl said:


> We use SBS here in florida, I thought APP was used up north only. Is this why GAF wants to now switch to APP instead of the SBS you applied?
> 
> 
> If they are advising cutting out the curling, etc and going over the top of the self adhering membrane (which I don't recommend b/c it seams there is a question of whether the base sheet is adhering properly...wind uplift, etc.) I can understand the APP suggestion. You cannot mop oved an existing roof without a seperation layer of insulation with one way venting without risk of trapping in moisture in the old system. The torch used for the APP membrane will actually burn out the moisture in the existing system and eliminate blistering which allows for the installation of an APP cap sheet over an existing BUR smooth or mod bit roof.
> ...


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## buildpinnacle (Sep 2, 2008)

Grumpy said:


> Bull, how so? While I know there are torchable SBS's, almost all torch mod bits are APP's. INversely the same is true, while there are torchable SBS's most sbs is cold applied or self adhering. Over here people don't do cold process because let's face it, at the end of the day who wants to look like a chimney sweep or like a tarp pit monster or a coal miner? If you can't see where I am going with this, it's dirty!
> 
> Am I missing something in your comment? P.S. I don't know of any APP SA.


Grump,

Actually, the majority of SBS membranes are hot asphalt applied. For what it is worth, I am not a fan of any self adhering or glued roofing product...especially in Texas. With the high UV down here, the glue turns to dust in about 6 years. EPDM seam failure is prominent around here. Also, water is a universal solvent and will disolve the glue over time.

Best roof around is a good old fashioned 4 ply with ballast or 3 ply with modified cap sheet.


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## odellconstruct (Mar 27, 2008)

http://gaf.com/../training/default.asp%3fWS=GAF%26Silo=RES1%26App=TRAI%26Uid=

im assuming that the roof was installed like video or they will not warranty it .
did you use proper sealant on the joints ect . roll it out after ?

me personally would have used a base and torched it and coated much better system .. im guessing is how you apply the sealent or the quality of the sealent may dictate the outcome of its lifespan .


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## roofpro350 (May 20, 2008)

Joe the Roofer said:


> We installed 160sqs of Liberty SA cap and base sheet on flat reroof. The seams on either product did not bind until heated by the sun for several days. Unfortunately, we got rain day during remove and replace and roof leaked continuously for about two weeks, causing 65 to 75 K in interior damage.
> 
> GAF rep conveniently pointed finger at install method and wont help at all.
> 
> ...


Our damages came out to be about $50,000 all said and done. We still are waitng for about 50% of the monies that GAF promised to help out. We can do a lot of future work with GAF so I'll wait and see. So far they have been good.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

I have never had a problem with GAF products except for the Topcoat.

I have never and will never trust SA modifieds. I have never used one for the very reasons mentioned about seaming.


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