# Cutting in recessed arch niches questions



## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

*Cutting in recessed & arched niche questions*

This forum has been slow so i thought i would throw this out there.

Ok so my boss is going to have me start Monday cutting arched niches into a stairway wall & then putting 3inch recessed lights into to top of the niche. If you can imagine, these are stairways that lead to a second floor apartment (the top floor), the walls on the right & left of the stairs are about 20 feet tall & there is a small light on the ceiling above the straight stairway that leads to the VERY NICE 3 bedroom apartment in a very nice apartment complex that i have done plenty of work in before. 

What we are doing adding some "bling" to the very bland stairway. I did the wiring for one of these about 2 months ago & it took about 4 hours to put in two 3-way switches (top & bottom) & set the 3 inch cans up & get them wired. I imagine i can get the wiring down to about 3 hours after i do a couple more. 
The drywall work that i will be doing is cutting in recessed arches that are about 30 inches wide (the width is determined by the studs) by about 3feet tall. These will go near the bottom of the stairway, in the middle & on top of the stairway. In the process of cutting these in i am supposed to remove one structural stud per niche (i hate doing this). After i get it "framed" (if you can call removing a structural stud framing) then i have to put up 1/4 inch drywall to follow the radius that i just cut in, then put plastic bullnose cornerbead up & then mud it & finish it to an orange peel finish.

My boss is wanting to pay me a piece rate of $225 to do this (this is the price he made up, he never talked to me about it he just told me). He is billing the complex $495 per unit which will include the wiring in all 3 niche lights, wiring in the switches, cutting in & framing the niches & then finishing to an orange peel texture. I am figuring this will take me & a helper 1 & a half days. Keep in mind this is all on a stairway, we will have very few flat work moments everything else will be slanted on the steps.

Here are my questions:
1) was he on crack while he bid the job? 
2) should i quit my job this whole thing seems ridiculous
3) removing structural 2 X 4's is ok ?
4) what should he have charged ($495 are you ****ing kidding me??!!)
5) what would be fair to pay somebody (like me the worker(s) to do this ?

By The Way the $225 is his total labor budget, i could work alone but i like my helper so i include him in almost anything i do, so i would rather make less but work with him.
I am probably going to do one of these starting monday & i will post pics. If it takes too long then i will probably quit my job.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

WAY too low! Seems to me he's charging the complex about what he should be paying you.

But is there that much work around right now that you can walk? Think about it.

BTW, why are you doing this on bid, and not by the hour?


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

I have to ask, are you an employee or a sub? :shifty:

Is your


> helper


 you think so much of really a helper or is he an employee of yours? A partner maybe?


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

Willie T said:


> WAY too low! Seems to me he's charging the complex about what he should be paying you.
> 
> But is there that much work around right now that you can walk? Think about it.
> 
> BTW, why are you doing this on bid, and not by the hour?


Things are slow around here but i think i can get more than 10 bucks an hour (which is what i am figuring the niches are going to pay LOL) just from side work AND this whole niche thing has shattered my confidence in my boss' ability to successfully evaluate & bid work. I dont want to walk but i am starting to think i have outgrown working for this guy. I am also starting to realize that i like building stuff & i'm pretty good at it most days & i think i am on a sinking ship. 

As for why i am not hourly, i dont know. I started working for this guy a year ago & it was for piece rate & its been piece rate ever since for the most part unless i do work around his house or do work where he has time & material rate already worked out. Maybe doing these niches for $15 an hour for me & $10 for my helper would work better than the current $225 plan, who knows :\

What do you think about removing load bearing 2x4's ? I am worried, i dont like it but i would feel better if people were commenting here like "oh just a few load bearing 2x4's, no sweat!!" My gut tells me its not ok, but there is alot of wood in those walls which makes me feel a little better.

Thanks for replying :thumbup:


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## Trim40 (Jan 27, 2009)

What are you going to do when you cut out for the middle niche and find floor framing?
How are you running the wire for the lights? Up the wall and across the attic?
Someone underbid this and is looking at you to save his bacon.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Is it 225 per niche, or is 225 for the 3?


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

boman47k said:


> I have to ask, are you an employee or a sub? :shifty:
> 
> Is your you think so much of really a helper or is he an employee of yours? A partner maybe?


I have been working for my boss for about 14 months, he is a friend of mine that needed help on an apartment project in march of last year during a time when i needed work. I went to work for him expecting a couple weeks of work. He 1099's me but i only work for him, i dont have my own business if thats what you are asking, but i guess because im 1099'ed it would appear i do,, BUT I DONT REALLY. 

As for my helper he is a friend of mine too, i have known him for about 9 months (working together about 3 months now) & he is a good worker & we work good together. I like working with a helper & this guy is a good worker, not a partner or an employee. I could do these niches alone but it would then be 2 or more days work. 

I noticed you asked me questions & i answered. But what did you think about my questions earlier in the thread, care to answer?


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

boman47k said:


> Is it 225 per niche, or is 225 for the 3?


$225 for the 3


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

Trim40 said:


> What are you going to do when you cut out for the middle niche and find floor framing?
> How are you running the wire for the lights? Up the wall and across the attic?
> Someone underbid this and is looking at you to save his bacon.


Floor Framing: We will have to go to a point where the bottom of the middle niche starts at the top of the floor, there is no way around it & from what i remember from the last one i (we) did it worked out pretty good. Floor framing will not be touched.

Wiring: not up the wall & across the attic, once the niches are opened up it isnt hard to fish from point to point. I pick power up in a switch box in the garage that is right by where the first 3 way is put in (on the wall behind it). Its not too bad after that.

Bacon: yes thats the feeling i get too. The thing that pisses me off about this is the first thing i said after seeing the niches for the first time was "you got to be getting $700 -$800 or more for these right ?" this was BEFORE he submitted his bid & after seeing how long it took us to do the lights & drywall ... its like WTF??!!


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

I had started a reply but changed it.

All I can say is you are in a precarious situation. Not sure I would call the


> contractor


 a friend. May be two boats with holes in them. There is defintely one that needs plugging.


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

boman47k said:


> I had started a reply but changed it.
> 
> All I can say is you are in a precarious situation. Not sure I would call the a friend. May be two boats with holes in them. There is defintely one that needs plugging.


I'll admit there are always two sides to a story, if that is what you are implying.
Truth be told i am not liking working for my boss much anymore. He hasnt "worked" a day in the year+ that I've worked for him, i understand there are other aspects of jobs that need to be done but NEVER actually working? The times where it is crunch time & deadlines & expectations are high i am on my own to try to make the people we work for happy. If it isnt obvious, I am frustrated with my job & these niches might be the final straw. Maybe something will give & this will all work out, who knows. But i still dont like removing load bearing 2x4's altogether lol !! Either way i will post some pics here monday or tuesday. They do look good when they are done :thumbsup:


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## Drywalller (Jan 2, 2007)

Yes the price is way too low.
What I would tell your boss is that you will do it by the hour and if it cost HIM more money he will bid things more accordingly in the future.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

I wouldn't necessarily say to quit, - - but obviously the price is way too low.

Just figure out what you _should_ make and tell him that's what you'll do them for.

If he doesn't like it, - - the ball's in his court.

No hard feelings . . .


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

$225 is high. I put that job out to bid on craigslist for the fun of it and got 236 responses, the guy I chose is ready to start on Monday and will pay me $10 for allowing him to do the work. :w00t:


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## Aaron111 (Nov 24, 2007)

Axecutioner-B said:


> This forum has been slow so i thought i would throw this out there.
> 
> Ok so my boss is going to have me start Monday cutting arched niches into a stairway wall & then putting 3inch recessed lights into to top of the niche. If you can imagine, these are stairways that lead to a second floor apartment (the top floor), the walls on the right & left of the stairs are about 20 feet tall & there is a small light on the ceiling above the straight stairway that leads to the VERY NICE 3 bedroom apartment in a very nice apartment complex that i have done plenty of work in before.
> 
> ...



youre time is worth the headaces wait it out and show them you care by offering free wprk samples//// work for my handyman outfit ...  :clap:


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

Aaron111 said:


> youre time is worth the headaces wait it out and show them you care by offering free wprk samples//// work for my handyman outfit ...  :clap:


If your "handy man outfit" includes a nice hawaiian shirt, nice board shorts & sandles, that actually may pay better than what i'll be getting :clap:


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Aaron, I just noticed you are in Hawaii. A couple of days ago, I met a guy from there who had moved here to help with his mother. He was in construction in some way. I never really got a good picture what his involvemnet was. His name was Ted, Ned, or something like that. Ring a bell?

Sorry for the diversion, back to your regular scheduled progamming.


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## force8 (Aug 25, 2008)

Willie T said:


> BTW, why are you doing this on bid, and not by the hour?


Excellent point. Your friend and boss may be 1099ing you but, by definition, you are an employee, not a sub, and should be getting paid by the hour or salary. Let him pay you a fair wage and he'll stop giving it away


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

force8 said:


> Excellent point. Your friend and boss may be 1099ing you but, by definition, you are an employee, not a sub, and should be getting paid by the hour or salary.* Let him pay you a fair wage* and he'll stop giving it away


 
And his share of taxes. I have known it to take years for people to pay self-employed taxes.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

What worries me most in this post is the compromising of a rated assembly (the stair wall in a multi-tenant building) with niches. I'd like to know what detail in the UL Fire Resistance Directory was followed when that project happened. Since the stair wall assembly is being compromised with niches, this is inspectable work, which I really doubt happened in this case. Not only was the price likely way too low, but it was done by a hack with no regard to maintaining the fire resistive rating of the stair wall assembly.


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

boman47k said:


> Lot better picture. The light in the first one was like a 500 watt and was brutal for sure. I may have been unfair, I was just going by the waves and humps I saw. That is why I mentioned the angle and lighting conditions being different in my picture and your picture in the first paragraph. That picture looks a lot better.
> 
> I was beginning to think too many structural studs were cut! :jester:


There are 3 structural studs cut out, one per niche. There is ALOT of beefy wood in the walls, but that doesnt make me feel like i did i good job when i remove them & put nothing back in their place. When we started in on those big, tall, stairway walls they were wavy gravy, & every stairway that i have been in in that complex was wavy. I think the place was built in '02 when construction was booming around here. Quantity was the theme, not quality & those walls are proof of it. 

I removed the other pic, 'not sure about people being in pics here on this site. I'm glad it looked better tho


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## Rockhound (Jul 12, 2007)

All I can say is WHAT?!?!???????!??? NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOO F'ing WWWAAAAYYYYYYY!!! Unsafe Unfair Unfriend


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I didn't read all the replies but if you are doing the same thing as in the pictures that you posted then the answer is simple IMO...You need to add a header to carry the load of the stud you have to remove...


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

JumboJack said:


> I didn't read all the replies but if you are doing the same thing as in the pictures that you posted then the answer is simple IMO...You need to add a header to carry the load of the stud you have to remove...


A header with jack studs right (the kings would be the ones that are in place that determine the sides of our niches)? I think the reason my boss didnt want to do that was because that would mean the expense of opening the wall up & doing extra framing & that is more work & more expense. I also consider the chance that my boss didnt even think for a second that removing a structural 2x4 is not ok, actually chances are more likely that the thought "removing structural 2x4's is not acceptable" never crossed his mind. :sad:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Axecutioner-B said:


> A header with jack studs right (the kings would be the ones that are in place that determine the sides of our niches)? I think the reason my boss didnt want to do that was because that would mean the expense of opening the wall up & doing extra framing & that is more work & more expense. *I also consider the chance that my boss didnt even think for a second that removing a structural 2x4 is not ok, actually chances are more likely that the thought "removing structural 2x4's is not acceptable" never crossed his mind.* :sad:


 If you perform the work, it really doesn't matter whether your boss is a hack by desire or default, as it is you who will take the heat for doing inferior work, if not unlawful work. If something happens down the road, the authorities will eventually ring* your* bell.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

The kings would the ones in place. The jacks would be between the two kings taking some width from the niches.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

loneframer said:


> If you perform the work, it really doesn't matter whether your boss is a hack by desire or default, as it is you who will take the heat for doing inferior work, if not unlawful work. If something happens down the road, the authorities will eventually ring* your* bell.


 
Yep. Neither is going to be able to lay the blame completely at the others feet. Hence my comment earlier about this being a precarious situation. If stuff hits the fan, that is when the radar becomes a laser.


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

loneframer said:


> If you perform the work, it really doesn't matter whether your boss is a hack by desire or default, as it is you who will take the heat for doing inferior work, if not unlawful work. If something happens down the road, the authorities will eventually ring* your* bell.


I am not the one with a signed contract with the apartment complex to do the work, & they wont be writing any checks to me. That doesn't make me feel anymore comfortable about doing the work that i am involved with. Boman summed it up pretty good, precarious. 

I want to do this type of work for a living, i like it, & most days i feel like i'm pretty good at it HOWEVER i would like to work for someone who knows more than me & who i respect as a worker & a person. My current situation is missing those 3 important pieces.

My quest to find a new job will begin very soon, i hope i find a good fit somewhere.


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

I gave 2 weeks of notice last night. My fingers are crossed that within the next month or so i will find a better situation


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

boman47k said:


> Yep. Neither is going to be able to lay the blame completely at the others feet. Hence my comment earlier about this being a precarious situation. If stuff hits the fan, that is when the radar becomes a laser.





Axecutioner-B said:


> I am not the one with a signed contract with the apartment complex to do the work, & they wont be writing any checks to me. That doesn't make me feel anymore comfortable about doing the work that i am involved with. Boman summed it up pretty good, precarious.
> 
> I want to do this type of work for a living, i like it, & most days i feel like i'm pretty good at it HOWEVER i would like to work for someone who knows more than me & who i respect as a worker & a person. My current situation is missing those 3 important pieces.
> 
> My quest to find a new job will begin very soon, i hope i find a good fit somewhere.


 I don't know about where you guys work, but here, if you are 1099, you are a sub and should be insured. I know for a fact that s#!t runs downhill and at some point, it will land on the 1099 guy.


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

loneframer said:


> I don't know about where you guys work, but here, if you are 1099, you are a sub and should be insured. I know for a fact that s#!t runs downhill and at some point, it will land on the 1099 guy.


I am sure you are right, the thing is i am 1099 but i have no other job, so its not like i am a "real" sub, i am an employee for a hack shop that doesnt want to deal with taxes the right way.

This is part of the reason i gave 2 weeks notice last night. Others are: my boss has probably the least amount of real construction experience of any GC in the state of Arizona, i mean like clueless :no:. I am not treated with the common respect that any human being deserves. I am not paid good. I dont want to do hack work. Etc.. etc.. I put myself in this situation before i realized that he isnt good at construction & before i knew how he treated people, now i am taking myself out of it, enough is enough.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Axecutioner-B said:


> I am sure you are right, the thing is i am 1099 but i have no other job, so its not like i am a "real" sub, i am an employee for a hack shop that doesnt want to deal with taxes the right way.
> 
> This is part of the reason* i gave 2 weeks notice last nig*ht. Others are: my boss has probably the least amount of real construction experience of any GC in the state of Arizona, i mean like clueless :no:. I am not treated with the common respect that any human being deserves. I am not paid good. I dont want to do hack work. Etc.. etc.. I put myself in this situation before i realized that he isnt good at construction & before i knew how he treated people, now i am taking myself out of it, enough is enough.


 Smart move, You are also going about it the right way, instead of walking. I hope opportunity presents itself. If you get in with the right guys, many doors will open themselves up to you.:thumbsup:


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Totally agree.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Ax, good luck. you seem like a levelheaded guy. I hope the best for you!:thumbsup:


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks for the good wishes guys !! I'll still be visiting this site often, i like it !! It would be nice if it were a little more active & i will keep doing my part to make it so


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Axecutioner-B said:


> Thanks for the good wishes guys !! I'll still be visiting this site often, i like it !! It would be nice if it were a little more active & i will keep doing my part to make it so


 Hey Ax, there is plenty of great information to be found here. The search button is the passageway to a wealth of tips, techniques and advice. The site tends to be a bit less active this time of year because business picks up for many of the members. I hope you stick around and let us know how things are going. Good luck.:thumbsup:


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