# A question for painters



## NDW (May 28, 2011)

How do you get clean lines in the ceiling corners with a knockdown textured ceiling? Ive tried taping off the ceiling but paint gets underneath the tape due to the textured ceiling. I would like to know how a professional painter does it.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Being this is your first post and no one knows anything about you or what trade you are involved in you are probably not going to get a good answer. Introduce yourself , tell us about yourself and you might get a better response. This site is for pros and right now you appear to be a DIY'er. Sorry if I offend


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## thorcctx (Nov 20, 2009)

How about a steady hand and a good brush!hahahaha no really cut it in man


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

CrpntrFrk said:


> Sorry if I offend


:thumbup:

We wish that more would help the newbies through the front door correctly here. Thanks!

Welcome to CT NDW!


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

Not to be a smartass but move the brush in a straight line right under the texture. If the wall has some large bumps on it from the popcorn just hit them with the 5 in 1.


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## Rent A Painter (May 29, 2010)

start by getting a good paint brush


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## RCPainting (Jan 29, 2006)

Some may not care for this look, but it is very popular in our area where there are textured walls and ceilings. This works well where the ceiling is not perfectly straight.
Just bring the ceiling line down.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

RCPainting said:


> Some may not care for this look, but it is very popular in our area where there are textured walls and ceilings. This works well where the ceiling is not perfectly straight.
> Just bring the ceiling line down.


I have seen that before and not sure if I like the way that looks. To me it kinda looks like a bad tape job.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

Tape and spray baby, Tape and spray.... :whistling

-Paul


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

More...


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

@ Sir Mix,

How come you masked with 16 feet of plastic on the ceiling to paint the wall?:laughing::laughing:

We usually just use 12" masking paper.


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## NDW (May 28, 2011)

Hi guys- I am a Residential Building Contractor. I just got my license. I flip houses by day. By night? Well thats another story, and another forum.

Ive tried bringing the ceiling down like RCPainting sais. It get nice clean lines but looking at the house my mother just had built, the lines are perfect, right up into the corners. Guess ill just have to get better tape and use my sprayer.

And SuperiorHIP painting freehand with a brush will look like elephant sh*t even if youre Vincent van Gogh.. not to be a smart ass...


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

NDW said:


> Hi guys- I am a Residential Building Contractor. I just got my license. I flip houses by day.
> 
> Ive tried bringing the ceiling down like RCPainting sais. It get nice clean lines but looking at the house my mother just had built, the lines are perfect, right up into the corners. Guess ill just have to get better tape and use my sprayer.
> 
> And SuperiorHIP painting freehand with a brush will look like elephant sh*t even if youre Vincent van Gogh.. not to be a smart ass...


Uh, a seasoned painter would have no problem with cutting that line. Stiff brush, sure hand.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

NDW said:


> Hi guys- I am a Residential Building Contractor. I just got my license. I flip houses by day. By night? Well thats another story, and another forum.
> 
> Ive tried bringing the ceiling down like RCPainting sais. It get nice clean lines but looking at the house my mother just had built, the lines are perfect, right up into the corners. Guess ill just have to get better tape and use my sprayer.
> 
> And SuperiorHIP painting freehand with a brush will look like elephant sh*t even if youre Vincent van Gogh.. not to be a smart ass...


:thumbsup:Right on. Free hand can be done. Some times you just need to have both the colors out to get that perfect line. Cut in with one and if you have any imperfections with that color, let it dry and cut in with the other.

But yes........ mask, then spray......that is an awesome way:clap:


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

You can easily fool the eye when cutting in by brush. No need to bring the line that far down, a couple hairs below the actual corner keeps a nice clean line without seeing that space from the ground or accidentally ending up with wall paint on the ceiling which is the worst look. The trick really is to not try to paint completely into the corner but no need to drop your line that far from the corner either. Practice, practice......practice makes it quick work
Or.....yes mask and spray :thumbsup: though for just an average size bathroom remodel or similar I'm not about to set up a sprayer.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

CrpntrFrk said:


> @ Sir Mix,
> 
> How come you masked with 16 feet of plastic on the ceiling to paint the wall?:laughing::laughing:
> 
> We usually just use 12" masking paper.


That project was an insurance job at a high end oceantfront home. 
So, the extra protection was my insurance policy for perfect lines and no fog on the beautiful white ceilings. 
This is what that area looked like before I got there.



























I Had to skim coat over the exsisting knockdown texture. So the texture would be consistant.










-Paul


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

Metro M & L said:


> Uh, a seasoned painter would have no problem with cutting that line. Stiff brush, sure hand.


Agreed!! Do it all the time......


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## Pete'sfeets (Mar 20, 2011)

Too weird , thought it was a joke , really, tape, never used it , always just tried to do better. I like the wooster extra firm, and if it isn't firm enough, go against the angle, keep the ladder at least a foot and half away, be high enough, no reaching for long walls, don't rely on the hand but the shoulder, waist and arm, for baseboards a hand on the floor for controlled balance. The paint should always just touch the ceiling edge, thin the paint for better flow, the second cut around will straighten up the line. For frames draw the paint up against gravity and just finish the top down where lifting won't work. Generally the darker colors are easiest because there's no doubting what doesn't look right. Tape is for splatter. To keep them from watching , I like to curse every once a while for no reason he eventually they give up the curiousity.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

svronthmve said:


> Agreed!! Do it all the time......





Pete'sfeets said:


> Too weird , thought it was a joke , really, tape, never used it , always just tried to do better. I like the wooster extra firm, and if it isn't firm enough, go against the angle, keep the ladder at least a foot and half away, be high enough, no reaching for long walls, don't rely on the hand but the shoulder, waist and arm, for baseboards a hand on the floor for controlled balance. The paint should always just touch the ceiling edge, thin the paint for better flow, the second cut around will straighten up the line. For frames draw the paint up against gravity and just finish the top down where lifting won't work. Generally the darker colors are easiest because there's no doubting what doesn't look right. Tape is for splatter. To keep them from watching , I like to curse every once a while for no reason he eventually they give up the curiousity.


I thought everything was smooth with no texture in NY and Canada. :whistling

-Paul


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## Pete'sfeets (Mar 20, 2011)

not trying to offend, I'd tape if I needed to spray. Smooth ceilings are harder to cut than a textured one, but it sure helps if the stucco fellow did the finish job for the edges properly. If they did a rough edge I guess I'd have to run a bead of caulk all around for a smooth edge to work with.


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

.....


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

Double post.


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## NDW (May 28, 2011)

If there is really someone whos freehand line is indistinguishable from a taped line i would be really surprised... all im saying. Especially throughout the span on an entire ceiling with a less than perfect rock/texture job.


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## Pete'sfeets (Mar 20, 2011)

I don't see why, at some point you have to determine where the line is drawn, , you choose whether the line appears on the ceiling edge or the wall edge. There are occasions or at least there used to be .. where I would make that mental error, like a ten foot high hall,skinny one, who needs the edge on the ceiling eh?. A wainscott dark on top white below on a long wall, I do the dark last so when veiwing the band looks straight but if you view it from above ,not that I'm god,,, it is kinda flawed, Man they must love you guys at the dump, all that plastic non recyclable trash and I thought I had scads you got airplane hangar full. I'd for sure rip that plastic with the spray hose.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

NDW said:


> If there is really someone whos freehand line is indistinguishable from a taped line i would be really surprised... all im saying. Especially throughout the span on an entire ceiling with a less than perfect rock/texture job.


It's not rocket science, it comes with having had the years of experience. Though I still say practice, practice, practice....if you really must paint to a tape line either try the new frog tape (I haven't) or use regular painter's tape and first paint the line with the color you are trying to protect. It'll fill the voids in the tape and after it dries you can paint with the second color and it won't bleed under the tape. I have used that method for painting border lines and designs on walls.
What do you do when you paint around cabinets?....definitely a place I cringe when I see someone tape the cabinet edge and paint onto the tape.


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

If you are good....you have 20 years experience and still think you could do better.........


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## researchhound (Sep 5, 2010)

I believe NDW referred to a knockdown texture which usually isn't too difficult to cut in to. Popcorn is another animal altogether. As some have said, a good brush and steady hand are your best tools. Don't care for the line 1/4 inch below the ceiling look. Our eyes are drawn to that white band at the top of the wall color or any time the ceiling paint comes down onto the wall. If there isn't a nicely defined line I'll stray a tiny, tiny, tiny (tiny- got it?) bit with the wall color onto the ceiling rather than the other way around. The eye generally won't detect the slight stray onto the ceiling because we don't look straight up at the joint - we view it from an angle - but we'll certainly see where the ceiling paint coming down onto the wall. With that said, using a good firm brush (my cutting in brush of choice is the 2" Purdy Pro-Extra Glide #5930) I almost always manage to get a clean cut keeping each paint color where it belongs.
I rarely spray and really only use tape to protect the top of baseboards against light roller splatter. Where I will use tape for definition is on those rounded wall corners where a change of colors occurs. 


dsconstructs said:


> if you really must paint to a tape line either try the new frog tape (I haven't) or use regular painter's tape and first paint the line with the color you are trying to protect. It'll fill the voids in the tape and after it dries you can paint with the second color and it won't bleed under the tape. I have used that method for painting border lines and designs on walls.


 That's a technique that I use a lot as well. However, sometime you don't have access to the paint you're edging to, or, you are after a faster work time. When I'm in those situations I've found that blue tape and a product called _Tape Seal_ gives good results - especially where the texture is heavy knockdown or brocade. TS goes on milky white and dries clear to paint over in about 15 minutes. It's an acrylic gel medium that wicks under the tape and seals any gaps. For really heavy texture a second application may be necessary but I think I've only had to do that once. I've used it for about three years now and have never had it affect the paint color or wall texture. I order it online and a little goes a long way.


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## NDW (May 28, 2011)

Alot of guys are talking about cutting it in by hand. What about a new construction where the whole house needs to be painted?


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## NaeGan (Sep 8, 2009)

There are some variables there. If I'm doing my own texturing I make sure the texture goes clear to the wall, whether it's a spray on or slap brush then knocked down, then cut in at the bottom edge of the texture. You will notice many people who texture will have voids along the wall where the texture is non-uniform. 

On the whole house paint, assuming your not the only contractor there and spraying is out, if you figure the time it would take to tape trim and along all the ceilings, you should be able to cut it in at a pretty good click not much slower than taping and saving you the material and the tape removal time and the chance of pulling the edge of the paint. Not only that, it's rare that anyone really expects a perfect crisp edge.


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## Pete'sfeets (Mar 20, 2011)

Yes the whole house, really, in the real world you don't get paid a whole lot more but you do get the easier job of cutting in, guys fight tooth and nail for the cermonial honour while the twits get to roll or sand. It's actually harder to cut in a pale cream because it all looks white until it dries. Real painters don't tape, just because you applied paint or you own a brush or you actually bought the paint , prescribed it ect, that doesn't make you a painter until you can cut in a say ten by ten room in twenty minutes. Car painting is another story. I painted a few but I always wash it off quickly.I remember starting off puttying windows, and then having to paint a fine line just over the glazing to seal it to the glass, oil paint. Initiation was ,,, just put this varsol rag in your back pocket , keep your hands clean! :laughing:


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

NDW said:


> Alot of guys are talking


There all different techniques for different situations. "You just can't get stuck in your way's. Or you get left behind fellas". :bangin:
I've seen where knockdown texture is on walls and ceilings that is virtually impossible to freehand cut the top angle with a brush and get a straight line. Even for you super painters. 

-Paul


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## artiospainting (Mar 16, 2011)

This mite be possible some finishers run ceiling and wall at the same time some run ceiling after it drys then the run the wall. same on corners that leaves the mud dry for a strate corner some run ceiling and walls at the same time. leaving mud uneven in corners. these guys will also have grate pride in there speed. Ill run a bead of caulk wipe it out and the corner will be straight now if there's space you could run a bead of caulk wipe it with one finger in a rag see if it works checking if there to much damage to the knock down your line should be strate.


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

A trick I've seen good drywallers do when they put their knockdown on is to take a curved edge taping knife along the corners to create a straight groove along the edge of the ceiling for the painter. If that's not what you have to work with, you could put a small bead of painters caulk in the corner to give yourself a smooth surface to either tape or cut in on after it dries.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Sir Mixalot said:


> There all different techniques :bangin:
> . Even for you super painters.
> -Paul


Yea but what about the 5 gallons in 6 n1/2 hours with a 3" brush guys:blink:


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## BarryE (Dec 12, 2009)

Rent A Painter said:


> start by getting a good paint brush


I'm guessing you posted a pic of brushes not to use? :laughing:

http://www.contractortalk.com/f26/cutting-walls-along-popcorn-ceiling-100146/#post1229589


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## Pelican (Mar 4, 2011)

In 10 years of painting I don't think I have ever taped a ceiling line. Also never had a complaint about lines not being perfect. I guess it comes with practice


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## Pete'sfeets (Mar 20, 2011)

Oh I've had plenty of complaints when I had a whole lot less years,Low ceilings present a challenge if you are not given any space to get distant from the wall and high ceilings well ,don;t hit the ceiling if you can't see it from another angle. I intend to teach my teens but boy is that a challenge, ,,needing awhole lot of patience and criticizing is , well needs magic timing. What's the difference between an artist and a craftsman?


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

Hire a pro.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Remodelor said:


> A trick I've seen good drywallers do when they put their knockdown on is to take a curved edge taping knife along the corners to create a straight groove along the edge of the ceiling for the painter. If that's not what you have to work with, you could put a small bead of painters caulk in the corner to give yourself a smooth surface to either tape or cut in on after it dries.


Just saw that for the first time on a bid a few days back. It was a stomp ceiling and they must have used a stiff brush of some sort and made a semi-smooth pass about 1-1/2'' wide along the ceiling at the wall.

As far as cutting in on tex ceilings.......free hand/quality brush for me.


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

Big Shoe said:


> Just saw that for the first time on a bid a few days back. It was a stomp ceiling and they must have used a stiff brush of some sort and made a semi-smooth pass about 1-1/2'' wide along the ceiling at the wall.
> 
> As far as cutting in on tex ceilings.......free hand/quality brush for me.


Oh wow, I didn't mean that big 

I was talking about a little groove about 1/8" wide at most. Interesting what you found though.


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

Paul,
Nice job like the pictures. I just got one question how much time does it take your guys to mask that room out? oh how many guys did it take to.
Looks good!


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

NDW said:


> If there is really someone whos freehand line is indistinguishable from a taped line i would be really surprised... all im saying. Especially throughout the span on an entire ceiling with a less than perfect rock/texture job.


You've never seen it happen? Painters do it all the time, I rarely paint and I have no problem cutting in an edge like that. You would not see the difference between that and using tape.

But if you want to use tape, then by all means use tape. Put your tape up then splat some paint the color of the wall over the tape, that will seal off your tape and whatever bleeds through will match the color of the wall. Let that dry then paint your ceiling whatever color you choose. You can use clear caulking to if you want to seal off your tape. Frog tape or Edge tape doesn't work, I've tried it, paint will still bleed through due to the texturing if you don't seal it with something.


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## 2coat (Jul 13, 2011)

*practice*



NDW said:


> How do you get clean lines in the ceiling corners with a knockdown textured ceiling? Ive tried taping off the ceiling but paint gets underneath the tape due to the textured ceiling. I would like to know how a professional painter does it.


 Use a steady hand hold your breath from time to time and look infront of what you are painting.


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## roads (Jul 19, 2011)

NDW said:


> How do you get clean lines in the ceiling corners with a knockdown textured ceiling? Ive tried taping off the ceiling but paint gets underneath the tape due to the textured ceiling. I would like to know how a professional painter does it.


Are you cutting in the wall or ceiling?
If your cutting in the ceiling and the walls are all ready painted then you started all wrong. ceilings first then walls.
If your just freshening up the ceiling and dont want to get it on the walls then carry a 5-1 tool and a rag and wipe it off as you hit the wall, mistakes happen and cutting in a knockdown ceiling is time consuming, clean your mistakes as you go, you would be surprised how well a wet rag and a 5-1 tool will clean a mistake.
_________________________
www.colormehughes.com


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

I too have never seen a cut in line as straight as a well done tape job. I've seen great cut in jobs, but it's never as crisp as a painter who knows how to use tape properly.

We all cut in ceilings however because they're very difficult to tape, and if there's a texture, it's really not possible without running a caulk bead first and taping that. Also, you never really sight down that line. If you're talking about cutting in along a baseboard or door jamb that has been caulked, a well taped line will always look better.

Everyone seems to think that since Joe Homeowner uses tape as a crutch, that it must be for beginners. Using tape properly without letting paint bleed through takes just as much skill, in my opinion, as cutting in. Also, like most things in this business, the difference between a novice and a craftsman is usually speed.

...

And now I will await the flames of painters saying that I'm totally wrong.


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## researchhound (Sep 5, 2010)

Remodelor said:


> I too have never seen a cut in line as straight as a well done tape job. I've seen great cut in jobs, but it's never as crisp as a painter who knows how to use tape properly.
> 
> We all cut in ceilings however because they're very difficult to tape, and if there's a texture, it's really not possible without running a caulk bead first and taping that. Also, you never really sight down that line. If you're talking about cutting in along a baseboard or door jamb that has been caulked, a well taped line will always look better.
> 
> ...


No flame from here. We all have ways of doing things that work best for us but that doesn't mean I don't want to hear the opinions of others. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here. The sharing of ideas and the diversity of opinions is what makes this forum, and others like it, valuable. I would never consider putting someone else down because they prefer to do something in a way that's different from the way I do it. The only person I consider an idiot is someone who thinks they've done it all, seen it all, and know it all.


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