# GC and Owner is trying to screw me over! HELP!



## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

Last year i took on a job, the GC & Owner gave me the prints and I bid on the job for XXXX amount( he supllies materials),it is also stipulated that I would get all the existing lights etc.. back working.

I finished rough last year, but because he couldn't finish some walls, my rough couldn't pass. So while the job sits, he's adding, changing, moving, things and i'm constantly making changes and he won't pay for changes and threatens to kick me off the job.

Rough Electrical past 3 months ago (still making changes) and he still hasn't drywalled, I tried billing him for change orders and materials I payed for, but he refuses and now wants me to redo the whole job in EMT to his liking in 2 days or he is kicking off job and he is saying I have to do it myself.

Now basically with the contract I signed and what he is claiming, he can make me do anything and it would be basically impossible to ever finish. Just constantly make changes, with no pay until I walk off th ejob.

I realized the guy was crazy long ago, but I just bared with it, just wanted to finish, but it is obvious he never was going to have me finish.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Talk to a lawyer about ways to bring his site to a creep if not a grinding halt. He may just want to come around to your way of thinking.


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## constructonomics (Aug 11, 2009)

Ahhh, the old won't pay a change order trick. If it is clear the the owner, architect or another sub delayed you're work, you have to get paid for that delay - I really don't care what the contract says because you can't just go around screwing people over. Just threaten to sue them, and maybe have a lawyer send a letter and you should be good to go.


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

Lien em & talk to lawyer
I hope you have a good contract, along with written change orders or at least a dated log of phone calls, conversations & agreed upon changes 
You are in for a major fight from the sound of it


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Whose contract.... yours or his/theirs?


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Whose contract.... yours or his/theirs?


I believe he signed my contract and I signed his.



He was on job site everyday, agreed to everything we did, called inspection for what we did, now says change everything or we sue you.
Mind you we passed inspection, everything is too code. 

I just looked my 1st inspection was in DEC. 2008, failed because he didn't finish walls.


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## WoodShop (Feb 21, 2009)

Well it will come down to what your contract says... However, surely there is a line that states, changes to this contract will be done so in writing. More work or deviation from the contract will be agreed upon prior to work. I would not do anymore work until I see payment or agreement with consideration... He can't make you do above and beyond your scope of work on his terms.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Talk to a lawyer and if you have a good contract you can collect for breach of contract, lost time, special damages,etc... by the time you be done with it, his head will spin :thumbsup:


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## HSConstruction (Mar 21, 2009)

A strongly worded letter from your lawyer may bring him around to reality or open a can of worms if the changes were made without signed change orders.

Either way I would not go back until the issue is resolved. Its been 9-10 months since your rough inspection so a few weeks to clear up this issue should not make a big difference.


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

Without airing alot of dirty laundry to them, have you spoke to other subs for comparison of his tactics?

Take note of any other violations going on. 

Once securing your money phone calls to appropriate authorities such as I.N.S. and O.S.H.A. could be considered as interest on your nuisance fees.

Also check out the "I need a new prank" thread for the more devious NON TRACEABLE pranks.

Consider it pain and suffering retribution.


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

hbelectric said:


> I believe he signed my contract and I signed his.


Huh???? Why would you have two contracts on the job? And why were they both so open ended with regard to scope? Did the scope read "do electrical rough-in work for as long as I tell you to"???


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Do whatever you intend to do upfront. You have every right and reason to utilize all legal and ethical means at your disposal to achieve your ends. But as a man, you also have some responsibilities to yourself and your reputation. Don't weasel around like a kid afterward. Passive aggressive tactics honor no one. My Pappy used to tell me that if I couldn't say or do something to a man's face, in broad daylight, I had no business even considering it under the sneaky cloak of aninimity.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Stop work and file your lien now. Include the cost of the change orders in the lien. Talk to your lawyer and have him/her write a letter to the GC and owner. If the house is being built on a construction loan the bank is going to get really irritated when the lien agent reports back to them. That in itself may get you your money. 

I would avoid any pranks or calls to government agencies (unless there truly are OSHA violations that you are concerned about) out of spite or to get even. This will just look bad and if you have to go to court and they can prove you did those things it might hurt your case. Remember your goal is to get your money and get out, leave the high school pranks to school yard kids and focus on the goal at hand. Good luck, I hope it works out for you.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

Bob Kovacs said:


> Huh???? Why would you have two contracts on the job? And why were they both so open ended with regard to scope? Did the scope read "do electrical rough-in work for as long as I tell you to"???


He made the contract, I just asked him to sign mine for my records. The contract stated that I finish rough in 2 weeks, so that was back in Nov. 08, which I finished, but couldn't get it signed off, because of him.

Look contract wise, he has me by my balls most likely, so i'm not going to pretend. But contract, no contract, i'm not going to be someone indentured servant.


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## dhall (Nov 7, 2007)

I keep seing these posts about some disagreement or another. I have always followed a simple rule. I work on houses, lawyers do legal work. I am not going to waste alot of time and aggravation doing something I am no good at. Therefore in these kind of situations If a resonable conversation gets nowhere or is not possible I cal the lawyer and let hom do what he is good at and I go on to the next job and do what I am good at. If you are in business and you don't have a relationship with an attorney you should. Just like an accountant. Its the simple facts of being in business. You should have had your contract either written by or at least approved by an attorney. I know it sound harsh but I see so many people get on these boards with a woe is me story and it is simple. An attorney os another tool, just like a saw or a drill. If you are lucky and everyone of your customers makes your morning coffee and backs cookies in the afternoon and pays you 110% (in case of problems you know) up front then eventually you are going to need a lawyer. I saw file a lien, have a lawyer send a letter and get on to something more productive


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

Yes I have a lawyer and he is advicing me on every step.


Ok I went and met with the GC/Owner (gc is the owners son). That lasted 5 minutes, he went off and threatened to beat me, if I didn't get off his property. He even as much threatened to grab a hammer, but put it down.

I was very polite and we sat down talked about the change orders,
I said lets go line by line. We made it past 1 and he went off, even after I said I wouldn't charge him for the 1st one. 

Job is completed, insulation is on the walls, there is nothing that needs to be done on my part. His 1st words to me, if you try to charge me for these change orders, I will remake you do this entire job, to my liking. I just sat silent and listened.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

hbelectric said:


> I believe he signed my contract and I signed his...........


You 'believe' he signed yours and you signed his? You don't know if he signed your contract?



hbelectric said:


> He made the contract, I just asked him to sign mine for my records. The contract stated that I finish rough in 2 weeks, so that was back in Nov. 08, which I finished, but couldn't get it signed off, because of him..................


*Why on earth would you sign two contracts for the same job?*



hbelectric said:


> Yes I have a lawyer and he is advicing me on every step.
> 
> 
> Ok I went and met with the GC/Owner (gc is the owners son). That lasted 5 minutes, he went off and threatened to beat me, if I didn't get off his property. He even as much threatened to grab a hammer, but put it down.
> ...


*NEVER NEVER NEVER* talk to this person alone again. ALWAYS have someone with you as a witness. Tell the owner that is what this person is in attendence for...... as a witness. Take a video camera or a tape recorder or a digital recorder..... something that will document what happens.


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## advanced_energy (Jan 8, 2009)

if it were me,he would have to get a beating..i'm not kidding. go away for a few days and have someone take care of this for you...


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

hbelectric said:


> Yes I have a lawyer and he is advicing me on every step.
> 
> 
> Ok I went and met with the GC/Owner (gc is the owners son). That lasted 5 minutes, he went off and threatened to beat me, if I didn't get off his property. He even as much threatened to grab a hammer, but put it down.
> ...


I don't understand his beef with you.
Is he not happy with your work?It does not sound like it as he has finished over it.
Does he not want to pay for the CO's?
Why?
Did he OK them?
Why would he want you to "Re-do the entire job" if you ask him to pay for the CO's?That is extremely baffling.....
Crazy.:blink:


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Stop work and file your lien now. Include the cost of the change orders in the lien. Talk to your lawyer and have him/her write a letter to the GC and owner. If the house is being built on a construction loan the bank is going to get really irritated when the lien agent reports back to them. That in itself may get you your money.
> 
> *I would avoid any pranks or calls to government agencies* *(unless there truly are OSHA violations that you are concerned about) out of spite or to get even.* This will just look bad and if you have to go to court and they can prove you did those things it might hurt your case. Remember your goal is to get your money and get out, leave the high school pranks to school yard kids and focus on the goal at hand. Good luck, I hope it works out for you.


That's why I said make a note of any other violations. I WOULD NEVER advocate prank phone calls to OSHA or ICE,INS etc. They do defeat the purpose. Why let him get by with other violations *IF *he his guilty?

And I have reported pricks to these agencies you don't have to go to court and/or be named.

As far as the actual "pranks" I referenced to yeah a bit sophmoric but, sometimes it makes you feel better WITHOUT breaking laws like vandelism or aggrevated assault.

And although I feel aggression should FIRST be met with diplomacy and Karma will get the person. 

I also feel occasionally Karma needs a helping hand.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

You 'believe' he signed yours and you signed his? You don't know if he signed your contract?

He signed both.




*Why on earth would you sign two contracts for the same job?*

*Because he insisted on his own contract and I wasn't comfortable, so I asked he if would just sign mine also. Dude i'm not a lawyer, that's what I came up with at the time. *



*NEVER NEVER NEVER* talk to this person alone again. ALWAYS have someone with you as a witness. Tell the owner that is what this person is in attendence for...... as a witness. Take a video camera or a tape recorder or a digital recorder..... something that will document what happens.[/quote]

I'm done with that job, no matter what, I was sure he was going to beat me with that hammer. Dude just went ape crazy, turned red screaming/cursing me.


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## HusqyPro (Aug 3, 2009)

How much money do you have in the job?

How much money is too much money for you to walk away from?

My personal limit is $2K. Anything up to and including $2K I'll just walk away from if it goes to ****. More than that and I'll bring down the lawyer.

So what's your limit?


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

hbelectric said:


> *Because he insisted on his own contract and I wasn't comfortable, so I asked he if would just sign mine also. Dude i'm not a lawyer, that's what I came up with at the time. *


How did that even make one bit of sense to you that you had two contracts signed? WTF was that going to do for either of you two from the start? Two signed contracts that are both different for the same job, makes no sense at all. That's when you should've walked right there.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

JumboJack said:


> I don't understand his beef with you.
> Is he not happy with your work?It does not sound like it as he has finished over it.
> Does he not want to pay for the CO's?
> Why?
> ...


Basically the whole beef was I was charging him for change orders and materials, it had nothing to do with the work done. All he had to was dispute the items and I would of worked with him, i'm very reasonable person, especially when things go bad, i just want to finish and get out.

Now I will never finish, because he got so out of control over a very small amount of money, which didn't even matter to me, it was chump change.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

Joe Carola said:


> How did that even make one bit of sense to you that you had two contracts signed? WTF was that going to do for either of you two from the start? Two signed contracts that are both different for the same job, makes no sense at all. That's when you should've walked right there.


 
You are beating a dead horse, let's move forward and I realize I need to work on my contracts.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

hbelectric said:


> You are beating a dead horse, let's move forward and I realize I need to work on my contracts.


I'm beating a dead horse! You signed two contracts which is unheard of and almost get your ass kicked with a hammer for chump change as you say.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

Joe Carola said:


> I'm beating a dead horse! You signed two contracts which is unheard of and almost get your ass kicked with a hammer for chump change as you say.


 
Dude just go away, i don't need your **** right now.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Silly question, but did you even read his contract?


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## BHR (Jan 7, 2009)

no use talking to him again, even with a witness. Do up the bill with the COs and send it to him registered mail. If no pay in 30 days - file and get him to pay. If anyone went off on me in any form they would learn from it. 

I never sign someone else's contract - they sign mine. It's my business, my insurance, and my taxes.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Silly question, but did you even read his contract?


Yes, I actually went over it during the rough, because he was already threatening me at that point to finish on time. I pulled the contract out of the file in 08 and I didn't put it back, so i'm waiting for wife to find it. 

Besides all that, since my meeting, I realize that nothing is wrong on the job, he just didn't want to pay for CO. Which is fine, at this point and at our meeting, I basically said I didn't care about the CO's. But that didn't seem to matter to him. There is just no reasoning, I offered him to line off the labor charges and just pay material and that wasn't good enough.

He doesn't feel, that he should pay me for materials, since we stole from him and i'm responsible for all the unused materials that he is stuck with.
Look my contract doesn't have provisions for what I have had to deal with here, so like most of us new contractors, we live and learn.

My lawyer had me send a email to him, to confirm we our fired from the job, then we proceed to lien the property. That is what I am doing at this point.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

hbelectric said:


> Yes, I actually went over it during the rough, because he was already threatening me at that point to finish on time. I pulled the contract out of the file in 08 and I didn't put it back, so i'm waiting for wife to find it.
> 
> Besides all that, since my meeting, I realize that nothing is wrong on the job, he just didn't want to pay for CO. Which is fine, at this point and at our meeting, I basically said I didn't care about the CO's. But that didn't seem to matter to him. There is just no reasoning, I offered him to line off the labor charges and just pay material and that wasn't good enough.
> 
> ...


Good.When he sees that the property has a lien he will change his tune.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

BHR said:


> no use talking to him again, even with a witness. Do up the bill with the COs and send it to him registered mail. If no pay in 30 days - file and get him to pay. If anyone went off on me in any form they would learn from it.
> 
> I never sign someone else's contract - they sign mine. It's my business, my insurance, and my taxes.


I have very limited experience, but I had a combined contract before with a large GC firm. They had their own contracts, but it didn't have detailed specs that would cover me. So we combined those contracts and that job went south, we liened the property and got paid, believe it was 22k.

I'm just going to consult my lawyer from now on and have him re-write my contract and not to sign a GC contract. I signed his contract because, I had no leverage, I was out of work, it seemed harmless at that point. Hindsight is 20/20 of course.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Whose contract was signed first?



hbelectric said:


> Yes, I actually went over it during the rough, because he was already threatening me at that point to finish on time. .............


OK. I'm confused now.

You started the job, he threatened you, so then you signed his contract?


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Whose contract was signed first?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No i'm stating that ive gone over the contract more than once, from when we intially signed. Sorry for the confusion. The contracts we basically "stapled " together and signed together.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

hbelectric said:


> No i'm stating that ive gone over the contract more than once, from when we intially signed. Sorry for the confusion. The contracts we basically "stapled " together and signed together.


Interesting concept. I'd be interested in reading both of them to see what potential conflicts there are between them.

For instance, yours may say, "Pay me when I'm done" and the owner's will say "I will never pay this guy".


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Interesting concept. I'd be interested in reading both of them to see what potential conflicts there are between them.
> 
> For instance, yours may say, "Pay me when I'm done" and the owner's will say "I will never pay this guy".


 
Haaa, no mine had the payment schedule, his contract was more about time to finish project, that I be on sight on a certain % of the project.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

As you admitted, you live and learn--and getting your ass handed to you is a powerful learning experience... No offense.

I'd wager his bark is worse than his bite and he's hoping a few tantrums will intimidate you enough to go away. Guys like this know how to take advantage of contractors who don't have a strong contract and scope of work to protect them. Dittos if you don't get changes from them in writing.

I've worked for a few of those types over the years and it sucks hardcore. Better for your sanity to turn it over to your attorney and move on. The world is round, and he'll definitely get his in the end. You don't treat people like that and get away with it every time. There are more than a few guys I know that would have said, "I'll see your hammer, and raise you a .38"... :shifty:

You'll find your "spidy-sense" is a little more dialed in from the experience--so you can better spot and avoid working for the next one.
_

“If you will call your troubles experiences, and remember that every experience develops some latent force within you, 
you will grow vigorous and happy, however adverse your circumstances may seem to be.”_
*--John Heywood*


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## Mitch M (Dec 4, 2006)

Listening to this is creating a lot of you will do this and that. I am a GC and have my contracts. I will issue the contract and PO to go with it. It details the job, payment schedule, where and why backcharges happen, and other details. One of my clauses though, says that my contract supercedes any and all. Sometimes I will sign their contracts but I read with a fine tooth comb. My contracts have been blessed by my attorney.

One question I do have for everyone. I am a GC. I send you a contract. You must sign it. You send me a contract and tell me that I have to sign. I disagree. You disagree. Sounds like we are a stalemate. What do you do?


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Mitch M said:


> Listening to this is creating a lot of you will do this and that. I am a GC and have my contracts. I will issue the contract and PO to go with it. It details the job, payment schedule, where and why backcharges happen, and other details. One of my clauses though, says that my contract supercedes any and all. Sometimes I will sign their contracts but I read with a fine tooth comb. My contracts have been blessed by my attorney.
> 
> One question I do have for everyone. I am a GC. I send you a contract. You must sign it. You send me a contract and tell me that I have to sign. I disagree. You disagree. Sounds like we are a stalemate. What do you do?


There's no reason to beat him up any further. 

If asked to sign a separate document I would politely ask for what specific language he wanted as part of the agreement. If it was reasonable, I would incorporate it into my contract. If not, I would have to tell him I'm not the contractor for him and move on. One document, that includes a detailed scope of work... end of story.

As you grow in business you become more and more confident in the value you give and more skilled at protecting yourself from being taken advantage of. It doesn't mean you have to get adversarial with potential clients--a mistake I see guys make all too often after they've been beat up a few times. 

Once you have a contract that protects you, that's been properly vetted by your attorney... you won't want to come out from under it's warm protection ever again.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

hbelectric said:


> No i'm stating that ive gone over the contract more than once, from when we intially signed. Sorry for the confusion. The contracts we basically "stapled " together and signed together.



Next time have a real change order contract on hand and don't any of the change order work until it is signed. You want it? Pay for it. The change order money should be made payable by the next scheduled payment in your original contract. Remember, you're an electrician, not a finance company.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Mitch M said:


> ............One question I do have for everyone. I am a GC. I send you a contract. You must sign it. You send me a contract and tell me that I have to sign. I disagree. You disagree. Sounds like we are a stalemate. What do you do?


I don't have to sign your contract. It's negotiable AFAIC. If we cannot combine both our contracts into one to both our satisfactions, then we part ways and you search for another sub.


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## MBS (Mar 20, 2008)

Mitch M said:


> One question I do have for everyone. I am a GC. I send you a contract. You must sign it. You send me a contract and tell me that I have to sign. I disagree. You disagree. Sounds like we are a stalemate. What do you do?


I do not have to sign anyone's contract, especially a GC's contract. How many red flags can be packed into a GC's contract? Every sentence is a red flag! I have had the pleasure of handing contracts back to GC's only twice, saying no thank you! They had terms that were so one sided that if I signed them, I was pretty much screwed and going out of business for doing so. :w00t:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

hbelectric said:


> terial and that wasn't good enough.
> 
> He doesn't feel, that he should pay me for materials, since we stole from him and i'm responsible for all the unused materials that he is stuck with.



What was stolen?
Excess material?

Why was there an abundance of unused material?


hbelectric said:


> ( he supllies materials)


He may have some valid points...but to act in an unprofessional manner  and not try and resolve the issues?
He's asking - begging, even - for legal action.



hbelectric said:


> (gc is the owners son).


Is the kid like his old man?


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## HSConstruction (Mar 21, 2009)

Your next contract should look something like this:thumbsup:


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

What was stolen?
Excess material?

I would get a call every night after we left that job, that my guy's stole his tools, then he would actually look where he left it. He said we stole his check book cussing us , but he dropped on the ground, while changing his pants. On occasion I used some of my wire to finish a run, because he kept bitching that we are using too much material and I was stealing the wire. When I would take my wire at the end of the day, he said it was his. 

He says we stole 2 roles of romex wire, not even allowed on job, so not sure why its there, defiantly never saw it. Excess material he says is missing, maybe some 4 sq boxes who knows. My guy's don't steal, never ever ever. I have donated more to that job, that I could ever take off it.

Mind you everything I used material wise I charged him in my CO's.

Look if he needed to go somewhere he would kick me out of the building and make me wait outside. 3 weeks ago I waited for 2 hours, in my truck, while he went to his daughters graduation thing.


Why was there an abundance of unused material?

1" conduit 50' and 20-30' 1 1/4 emt. That is what is left, not a piece of 3/4, 1/2 anything. I could return it easily, i told him I would return it.

He may have some valid points...but to act in an unprofessional manner  and not try and resolve the issues?
He's asking - begging, even - for legal action.


Is the kid like his old man?[/quote]

The "kid" is around 45-50 years old, I have never met the owner, only seen him on the job, but never introduced. 

BTW my wife says I should go back tomorrow and "finish the job", he emailed back and said I threatened him and we are not fired. To come tommorrow or you will lose your money and he's not paying the CO's. 
I think my wife pissed me off more than the GC, she does not understand what a crazy lunitic is.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

hbelectric said:


> 3 weeks ago I waited for 2 hours, in my truck, while he went to his daughters graduation thing.


Are you kidding me ?


Seriously...how much is owed at this point in time?


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

.....


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## Mitch M (Dec 4, 2006)

MBS said:


> I do not have to sign anyone's contract, especially a GC's contract. How many red flags can be packed into a GC's contract? Every sentence is a red flag! I have had the pleasure of handing contracts back to GC's only twice, saying no thank you! They had terms that were so one sided that if I signed them, I was pretty much screwed and going out of business for doing so. :w00t:


So I take it that you do work without contracts? I, myself, have a few very select subs that I do that with on small projects. But I have also been working with them for a long time. They know me and I know them. We work together. 

I have only had one time where it was questioned. The sub called, we discussed it and moved on. He did what he was supposed to do and I did the same. Worked out great. Still working with the same sub.

The bad thing is if you quote me a price, we get the job, and I send you a contract and then your refuse that puts me in a bad position because then I have to go to the next guy therefore causing me money. Which is not right. On the other hand, if you send a proposal qualifying the bid and I fail to catch it then it is my fault. I typically refer to their proposal. Keeps me from having to re write everything.


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

Wow HB. 

It's bad enough you have to deal with the usual disagreements on a jobsite but this douschebag takes the cake.

DEFINETLY needs to switch his meds. or get on some. 

It's amazing he can get any new jobs with that kinda treatment to subs.

You know better on your contract for next time but It sounds like even a good contract wouldn't have solved the prob here.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

HSConstruction said:


> Your next contract should look something like this:thumbsup:


This is good!


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

A few corrections on my part, since it has created debate on this thread.
I said I believed we had 2 contracts, the wife and I sat down and she says there was no 2 contracts. She thinks i'm getting detailed emails confused with the contract. It would make sense that there is only one contract in the folder.

Now he does have clauses on the blue prints, that my lawyer is now reviewing. I'm not going back to the job, no matter what.


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

hbelectric said:


> A few corrections on my part, since it has created debate on this thread.
> I said I believed we had 2 contracts, the wife and I sat down and she says there was no 2 contracts. She thinks i'm getting detailed emails confused with the contract. It would make sense that there is only one contract in the folder.
> 
> Now he does have clauses on the blue prints, that my lawyer is now reviewing. *I'm not going back to the job, no matter what*.


Good for you!:thumbsup:

I can't see anything positive going back to THAT kind of hostile environment.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you should screen every contractor? I always check with lumber salesman, fellow tradesman,etc for info on any contractor who cold calls me. Only a couple of times have we refused to work for someone. Just the fact of the two contracts makes this whole thing seem rather odd from the get go. That being said, occasionally we have had trouble getting paid too. Filed a lien and went to court once about 10 years ago and collected the full amount. There are people out there who either dont want to pay, or who figure if they string you out long enough, you will settle for less. Never,Never,Never settle for less than what you are owed. I would rather collect the entire amount and pay a lawyer 10% than settle for 95% and let the guy off the hook.


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## BHR (Jan 7, 2009)

Warren said:


> Never,Never,Never settle for less than what you are owed. I would rather collect the entire amount and pay a lawyer 10% than settle for 95% and let the guy off the hook.


 
Damned right!


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

HSConstruction said:


> Your next contract should look something like this:thumbsup:


 
Dude? r u for real? so i guess i am really stupid for not using contracts. Too stupid to understand 1/2 of the double talk... i guess it's good to have a contract like that in the evnt you get screwed..... but man... do you ever get any one to actually read what they sign? You could put the rights to their first born child in there and they'd never see it. Crap... maybe i like being a handy man now... Christ, what happened to i work for price i gave you, when i get done you pay me or i come F**&^^^break yer GDLIUIHGJK legs while your wife watches you squirm. Piece of s**&^T.... sned me a plane ticket and i make this prick pay you for your work.... I get him to pay double.... promise.... I once snatched a guys ear off and fed it to his neighbors dog just so they couldnt sew it back on. NAh im just kidding... but i would like to give that jerk a kick in the junk for you..!!!!:furious::laughing::thumbup:Friggin ....umph....rrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

21gun said:


> Dude? r u for real? so i guess i am really stupid for not using contracts. Too stupid to understand 1/2 of the double talk... i guess it's good to have a contract like that in the evnt you get screwed..... but man... do you ever get any one to actually read what they sign? You could put the rights to their first born child in there and they'd never see it.


Delete the first two pages and the glossary of terms, and his contract looks a lot like mine.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Delete the first two pages and the glossary of terms, and his contract looks a lot like mine.


 
that looks more like something i could use. I read it top to bottom... you really have you self covered. i know the law changes from state to state... But that all sounds pretty usual.... 

I've only done a few jobs that were over 10,000.......... 

and only ever gotten the shaft twice and they were only a couple grand lost...each... I fitted over it, yeah, and it hurt.... but i was busy and hardly missed the money. Now? hell, i'd have to hurt someone.

Guess i need to look into a contract of similar porportions. I really like yours. MAy i please copy your homework?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

21gun said:


> .........Guess i need to look into a contract of similar porportions. I really like yours. MAy i please copy your homework?


Go right ahead. Just run it by legal counsel in your state first.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

i gotta admit... im too old fashioned for my age. I just believe that things were simpler back then and a good ass kickin solved alot of things. YOU DONT take food from a mans table. Just like you dont take food away froma wild dog. Dangerous. I guess i need to stop living in the past and get with the times. these times suck. Where did it all begin to go wrong and since when do the criminals have so many rights? Sorry i tell ya, sorry. Vigilanty justice was more fun too i bet.... pistols, saloons, horses, i'd give my rightie to go back to those times and say to hell with the present.... sorry i tell ya, just sorry. Guess it aint gettin any better either, oh well, let's all get lawyered up and ready to take it on the head... I bet my grand dad never had problems like this guys having... Good luck to ya man, get everything you can. But just remember... youre the better man... always hold yourself to that respect.... it'll be alright. but dont let him off. He'll brag till he's dead and out of breath... you know he will. Dont give him that pleasure.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

21gun said:


> Where did it all begin to go wrong and since when do the criminals have so many rights?



In 1958.

It's true.

The very first "reality" TV presenting actual small claims "drama" was _The People's Court of Small Claims.
__The People's Court_ [1981] was the first reality court show that did not use actors. 

So there you have...it all went South under Ike.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

I officially got fired off the job by email tonight , since I didn't go and redo everything he didn't "like", by 5pm today.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

hbelectric said:


> I officially got fired off the job by email tonight , since I didn't go and redo everything he didn't "like", by 5pm today.


It sounds like he did you a favor, when the guy started accusing you of theft and kicking you out of the building, you should have realized what a whacko this guy is.


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## HSConstruction (Mar 21, 2009)

21gun said:


> Dude? r u for real? so i guess i am really stupid for not using contracts. Too stupid to understand 1/2 of the double talk... i guess it's good to have a contract like that in the evnt you get screwed..... but man... do you ever get any one to actually read what they sign? You could put the rights to their first born child in there and they'd never see it.


 
I do not do subcontract work but I would be happy if my subs handed me this. If you read and understand it its pretty damn fair.
My subs do not even give me contracts we work off of handshakes and honor and it works BUT I use the same subs every job every time. I never cut them down,I may ask how do you come to this number, but it is what it is. I am right there with the checkbook when they want money and they are right there when I need them. If I am handed an invoice the check is cut on the spot. This is why they trust me.

However, I never work without a contract even with family. Projects ranging from $300 to $600,000 and only once did I take a hit. It was $1200 and I seriously thought I might kill him if I saw him again.

My average kitchen project gets this contract


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

hbelectric said:


> I officially got fired off the job by email tonight , since I didn't go and redo everything he didn't "like", by 5pm today.


 
Hang onto that email, you may need it!:thumbsup:


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## JamesKB2 (May 13, 2009)

My guess?

The guy is a wanna be GC, is spread VERY thin money wise right now (daughter graduated? BUCKS!) and is trying to squeeze anybody he can to cover his nut.

I've dealt with red faced "yellers". Bullies, with selfish intentions and a big ego to go with it. Every. Single. One.

Your recourse, if you want peace, is to see his problems, work with him to resolve them, and if you want work with him again, be up front and thorough the next time. Basically, you can go to war, or try to kiss and make up.

I'm amicable by nature, I would try the empathy path first, not to get screwed, but just to listen and learn. Sounds like you tried that. So I guess it's finish and eat it, or go to war.

Good luck....


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

bwalley said:


> ..... when the guy started accusing you of theft and kicking you out of the building, you should have realized what a whacko this guy is.



How about when he had to go out and sit his truck while the dude went to a graduation?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

hbelectric said:


> I officially got fired off the job by email tonight , since I didn't go and redo everything he didn't "like", by 5pm today.



How about an answer:


Celtic said:


> Seriously...how much is owed at this point in time?


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## Rockhound (Jul 12, 2007)

"My subs do not even give me contracts we work off of handshakes and honor and it works BUT I use the same subs every job every time. I never cut them down,I may ask how do you come to this number, but it is what it is. I am right there with the checkbook when they want money and they are right there when I need them. If I am handed an invoice the check is cut on the spot. This is why they trust me"

This is how we did business around here too until times got harder and the GCs started using illegals which left them enough money for GOOD crooked lawyers. 

As for Karma: It's just bullsh*t that makes you feel better,it doesn't work....the shysters who have fuct me and alot of other subs over are living great while every sub I know is either being tossed out of thier home or close to it. I guess we all should have threw a wrench in the system a long time ago but GC's discouraged contracts with the " You don't trust me,don't work for me" routine. Its hard to stand on moral ground when your kids are hungry and your mortgage is overdue.


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## Capstone (Aug 15, 2009)

*Get tough with him.*

Not sure how much of my advice applies in the U.S. but I would suggest the following to someone asking the same question in Canada. 

_My advice only works for legal contracts and correct invoices. If you are asking for money which you are not rightfully owed then my advice does not apply._

Stop work immediately and send him a letter with invoices attached demanding payment within three days. Let him know that if payment is not received within three days you will immediately begin the following actions:
1) lien the property,
2) call the credit bureau on both him and his client,
3) launch a small claims suit against him and his client asking for interest on any overdue amounts, court fees and damages (where applicable),
4) call him at home every day to politely request payment,
5) call his clients, and
6) post notes on any dicussion boards, association websites, anything asking if anyone has had trouble getting paid by this company.

In short, make life tough for him. Make yourself a huge pain in his ass until it is simpler to just pay you and get you off his back.


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## Capstone (Aug 15, 2009)

*The other side of the story...*

But on the other side of this dispute, I have hired a good many subcontrators to do work which was not done properly or not completed. I sign a contract with them to finish a job and they don't hold up their end of the bargain. Do I pay them in full? No. In fact, I may not pay them at all if they jeopardize my standing with my client. 

I hired one guy who tells me he is bringing a three man crew in to renovate a full townhouse unit, ceramic flooring, full bath and kitchen and full plaster touchup and paint job. I keep checking in and he only has one guy with him. And he is proceeding slooooowly. After he takes more than four days to plaster and paint a small townhouse I fire him. Now I am behind in my project and the client is unhappy. Do I pay the sub in full? Heck no!

The problem cuts both ways.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Capstone said:


> ...... Do I pay the sub in full? Heck no!............


Is that just because of the way you feel, or is that the way your contract is written?


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

So the GC is the owners Son?? That was the beginning of your problems right there, the owner is going to back his son regardless. Only sign one contract for your work and it should be your own contract. I would also talk to your inspector, i dont about the rest of you folks out there but my inspector has no problem with pulling his inspection. He will just walk in, scrape the sticker and tear up the papers. Then the HO or GC can start all over again. I just went through this with a HO not paying me and tried to fire me, she failed to realize it was I who issued the building permit so when she threatened me i threated back to pull her permits and inspections. 3 days later i had her check and we are now on the same page.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

There is an awful lot of testosterone in this business.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Capstone said:


> But on the other side of this dispute, I have hired a good many subcontrators to do work which was not done properly or not completed. I sign a contract with them to finish a job and they don't hold up their end of the bargain. Do I pay them in full? No. In fact, I may not pay them at all if they jeopardize my standing with my client.
> 
> *I hired one guy who tells me he is bringing a three man crew in to renovate a full townhouse unit, ceramic flooring, full bath and kitchen and full plaster touchup and paint job. I keep checking in and he only has one guy with him. And he is proceeding slooooowly. After he takes more than four days to plaster and paint a small townhouse I fire him. Now I am behind in my project and the client is unhappy. Do I pay the sub in full? Heck no!*
> 
> The problem cuts both ways.


What does your contract say?

If time is of the essence, you must have that in your contract, if there is no finish date, or size of crew in the contract, you can't just fire the guy.

Even if there is, there should be penalties, you can't just not pay them for their work.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

bwalley said:


> .... you can't just fire the guy.
> 
> .



Sure ya can....it just involves more paperwork :laughing:


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## Santa's Helpers (Jun 12, 2009)

Capstone said:


> But on the other side of this dispute, I have hired a good many subcontrators to do work which was not done properly or not completed. I sign a contract with them to finish a job and they don't hold up their end of the bargain. Do I pay them in full? No. In fact, I may not pay them at all if they jeopardize my standing with my client.
> 
> I hired one guy who tells me he is bringing a three man crew in to renovate a full townhouse unit, ceramic flooring, full bath and kitchen and full plaster touchup and paint job. I keep checking in and he only has one guy with him. And he is proceeding slooooowly. After he takes more than four days to plaster and paint a small townhouse I fire him. Now I am behind in my project and the client is unhappy. Do I pay the sub in full? Heck no!
> 
> The problem cuts both ways.


So, he works for four days and is entitled to nothing. Did he get anything done? Or did he just sit in the house?
There is a legal concept called unjust enrichment. 
If you told him that time was important and there was a completion date in the contract, he has not breached the contract until after that date. I am not trying to start a fight here. Just bringing up some important legal points.
Jeff


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

Celtic said:


> How about an answer:


5k range with CO's, materials, and final rough payment.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

hbelectric said:


> 5k range with CO's, materials, and final rough payment.



If you walk [forget what the GC "thinks" he has done]...can you live with that hit?
The hit to your company's bottom line, your own financial needs, etc....as well as any performance bonding issues that might bite you on the ass....and let's not forget your reputation.

Do-able w/o pain?


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## Capstone (Aug 15, 2009)

Both. I cover myself with my contract written for subs but I also leave it up to common sense. I have only had one problem in over 400 contracts so far. And I lost that one (laughing), because he used my advice in my first letter and became a pain in my ass so I ended up paying him for work he had not completed just to get rid of him.


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## Capstone (Aug 15, 2009)

Replay to Jeff / Santa's Helpers:

The completion date is specified in the contract. And lay it all out at the beginning as far as how the job should progress schedule-wise. 

When there is two days for minor mudding and painting and he is on day four and only finished a primer coat and one-half top coat...I know there is a problem. And these are rentals that I am renovating so time is money for my client. And my client has paid me over a half-mil the previous year so I am not aiming to let him down. The sub got off lucky on that job.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

What was the breech?


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## snowDrift (Oct 4, 2010)

hbelectric said:


> I lost in court, Judge says the contract was breeched, so no money is owed.


sorry to hear that
that sounds like b.s...
what exactly do you mean with the contract was breeched so no money is owed?? ..


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

snowDrift said:


> sorry to hear that
> that sounds like b.s...
> what exactly do you mean with the contract was breeched so no money is owed?? ..


Judge basically said there was problems on the job, that couldn't be reconciled, so the contract is breeched. From my understanding from this, any GC or HO could threaten your life, kick you off there property and they don't have to pay you squat, for services rendered.

The defendant told the judge he owed us the money, but was disputing the charge orders. So I thought atleast I would get $2000. I don't feel I was prepared for court and the lying that was going on in court. I just wanted what I was owed, I didn't want to bad mouth the guy or make up lies.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

So you didn't even get paid for services already rendered?

I think your lawyer should appeal.


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## hbelectric (Oct 8, 2007)

Framer53 said:


> So you didn't even get paid for services already rendered?
> 
> I think your lawyer should appeal.


I finished rough and he owed still owed me 10%, per contract. He owed me for materials, he was paying for all materials, so I had about a $1,000 in materials, that I will not get paid on. Then change orders, I will not get paid on.

What I don't understand is the contract was good after I passed inspection, that is when he owed me the money. It was 6+ months later, he kicked me off the job, even though finish trim wasn't even ready and I had no reason to even be on the jobsite.

I guess i'm more pissed about having to deal with this ******* for all this time and i knew he was trying to get me to alk off the job, so I wouldn't get paid. So it sounds like the judge believes to a point, I abandoned the job. 

We went to small claims, my lawyer advised this since there was stipulations, that we could be liable for his attorney fees, via some details on the blue prints. At this point, since he signed the contract with a false business name, the contract is pretty much void now, i think.

I don't want to fight this anymore, a lesson is learned, I got scammed out of hard earned money.


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## FRAME2FINISH (Aug 31, 2010)

thats too bad keep yoru chin up its only money and our governement prints it like it s free


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## tony ball (Oct 21, 2010)

well some of us are poor and cant afford lawyers that want upfront money and even then the contractor doesn't care what he has done to you and your family. me personally the only thing these type of people understand is physical harm to them or their equipment etc and I'm usually obliged to help them out on that end. i enjoy playing fair and doing a great job that i can be proud of and treating people with resp but when they refuse to behave respectfully and without honor or integrity then they don't deserve to be treated in such a manner and it is usually the law protecting them that gives them the cajones to behave like that. but hey when your house doesn't exist anymore then there seems to be no more problems. had a neighbor that enjoyed selling drugs and just being threatening in general. he had to move because his house doesn't exist anymore and his vehicle didnt either and his drugs were all gone too. come to think of it he lost everything. hope he is wiser now and not behaving like that anymore.


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## surfpangea (Oct 22, 2010)

*I have been there*

Did you prelim the job and if so file a lien for total amounts not paid and give it to your attorney and let him do the talking. My advise on future projects is always get change orders approved on paper before commencing the work or at least a notice to proceed on stated work California contractors state license law states change orders or extra work added to a contract to be paid before said work is done.I know it does not always work out that easy but try to follow that simple policy. Prelim project and signed change order before said work starts.


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## covaltleveling (Aug 13, 2010)

Lawyer up, file a lien.........


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

covaltleveling said:


> Lawyer up, file a lien.........


 He did lawyer up and lost.Are you even reading any of the dozens of posts you are replying to today?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

JumboJack said:


> He did lawyer up and lost.Are you even reading any of the dozens of posts you are replying to today?


I'm wondering that myself. He sure is typing fast right now.


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