# The depot beat my price



## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Got a call today and it was a referal from a past customer. Cool. Her: how much to install a screen door. Me: I said it hard to price the job without looking at it, but since you said that it is a newer house, the job would cost $100 labor only. 
Her: The home depot said that they would do it for $97. For $3 less I am going to let them do it. 
Me: Ok. Let me know how it goes.

At least I didn't drive over there and waste gas and time.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Gary H said:


> Got a call today and it was a referal from a past customer. Cool. Her: how much to install a screen door. Me: I said it hard to price the job without looking at it, but since you said that it is a newer house, the job would cost $100 labor only.
> Her: The home depot said that they would do it for $97. For $3 less I am going to let them do it.
> Me: Ok. Let me know how it goes.
> 
> At least I didn't drive over there and waste gas and time.



:laughing::laughing:

She was probably in shock when you didn't say "Wellllll I could do it for $95


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

I've been underbid plenty of times, but THREE BUCKS?

Put this one in your laugh bank. 

AMAZING!


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

You mean you didn't call Home Depot first?

Half the guys I know base their prices on what HD or Low's charge. Minus 5%.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

She had such a sexy voice, I almost dropped it to $99. But I thought someone on CT would find out and post on here how I caved in.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> :laughing::laughing:
> 
> She was probably in shock when you didn't say "Wellllll I could do it for $95


She kinda hesitated after she told me the depot price. Like she was expecting me to say I will do it for less.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

loneframer said:


> Half the guys I know base their prices on what HD or Low's charge. Minus 5%.


 Are you serious Riz?

This must be a TRUE geographical difference then. I, nor most of the legitimate guys around here don't give a rat's a$$ what those guys charge for ANYTHING! They are truly bottom of the barrel when it comes to installs and most everyone around here (including HO's) know it.

Hopefully the rest of the country will get clued in as well.

I am guessing that people that go this route are just plain scared of some horror stories they have heard about us "slimy contractors", and feel that they might have some recourse available by dealing with a large company.

For the guest homeowners reading this forum---CHECK the references your contractor provides. The attention to detail and quality will not be available *EVER* from the box stores.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Gary H said:


> She kinda hesitated after she told me the depot price. Like she was expecting me to say I will do it for less.


Gary, I hope you realize how ridiculous this was on her part. Don't sweat it in the least.

It does make for good fodder here though.:laughing:


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## norcal-hvac (Jun 21, 2011)

...and you didn't try to sell you or your business and why you would be better ..?? Tell her why she should have you do it instead of HD..? One sale is one sale but a referral is worth more and if they don't take the pitch, oh well, but at least you would have tried. "business"


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

H.D. guy's just slap it in as quick as they can & don't worry about being called back on it........... I had worked on one that they installed a little bit ago & they never installed the inside Jamb screws...............


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

norcal-hvac said:


> ...and you didn't try to sell you or your business and why you would be better ..?? Tell her why she should have you do it instead of HD..? One sale is one sale but a referral is worth more and if they don't take the pitch, oh well, but at least you would have tried. "business"


Well its Mikes Plumbing fault. He writing a blog on marketing and has only gotten to part B.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

norcal-hvac said:


> ...and you didn't try to sell you or your business and why you would be better ..?? Tell her why she should have you do it instead of HD..? One sale is one sale but a referral is worth more and if they don't take the pitch, oh well, but at least you would have tried. "business"


I think Gary was just sharing with us a somewhat comical (and eye rolling) experience.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

rselectric1 said:


> Are you serious Riz?
> 
> This must be a TRUE geographical difference then. I, nor most of the legitimate guys around here don't give a rat's a$$ what those guys charge for ANYTHING! They are truly bottom of the barrel when it comes to installs and most everyone around here (including HO's) know it.
> 
> ...



I was joking, although many guys keep an eye on their basic installation costs as a cross-reference tool.

Most folks that live as close as I do to the big boxes think nothing of checking their install prices and using it as a bartering tool.

Around here, their numbers aren't that reasonable. Then again, I guess that depends on if you can replace a door in 3 hours, or if it'll take you all day.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

voices on the phone are so deceving...did a job for a tiffany and she sounded hot on the phone i get there and she was a hog...

the lady prolly needed the extra 3 bucks for some doughnuts...F her


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

rselectric1 said:


> Are you serious Riz?
> 
> This must be a TRUE geographical difference then. I, nor most of the legitimate guys around here don't give a rat's a$$ what those guys charge for ANYTHING! They are truly bottom of the barrel when it comes to installs and most everyone around here (including HO's) know it.
> 
> ...


Actually, most people that use home depot or lowes do so because they can charge everything on the card. I've installed for home depot, and they get the same job everyone else gets. In fact, I made good money working there.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

ive worked on a door all day before


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## GettingBy (Aug 19, 2010)

Gary H said:


> She kinda hesitated after she told me the depot price.


If you want to throw her off, don't say anything at all until she asks you if you are still there.

I had some diplomat who called me pull this pregnant pause caca with me so I also started leaving long pauses between my answers. Meanwhile I am making a drawing of a middle finger on a pad. 

Pretty soon this SOB is on the defensive. It seems to work with several different types of manipulative people.


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## PaulPrice (Nov 20, 2010)

I just lost a 20k over a difference of 3k, to a contractor that the homeowner referred to as a "lunatic".... i'm sick and tired of dealing with idiots

The other reputable contractor they got a price from, was on par with me

The funniest part is, the whole time i was at their house going over my price, they were complaining about the build quality of their house


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

catfish said:


> Actually, most people that use home depot or lowes do so because they can charge everything on the card.


Good point, though not generally my experience. Around here, they seem to go for the box stores because they think that (a) a large, well-established company like that is going to do a better job of producing and standing behind quality work, and (b) the background checking and so forth is automatically taken care of without the HO having to think for himself.

There is a certain amount of logic to (b).

But I've always been able to make good money while charging less than either chain. In one case in particular, I installed two sliding glass doors bought from Lowe's for less than half of what they wanted, did a quality job and made good money. I would have been unable to sleep at night charging what they wanted.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Don't the installers have to fork over something like 25% back to HD just to have the honor of slapping it up on the house?


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> If you're better then XYZ, you should be charging accordingly.


Your almost always limited by the constraints of the market. 




> Delivering a superior product but charging the same as people do for mediocrity makes no sense. If you're great, charge accordingly.


Who says your better, you? them? the customer? If you provide a better product and if...IF? it becomes recognized as such, it will usually come back in the form of Repeat business or even better free advertising (word of mouth)



> There is no such thing as a great deal or deals too good to be true, nobodies going to find a Porsche priced the same as a Chevy.


You lost me here? A deal or great deal is just a relative price to what your average price would be for that particular product. Now Deal or great deal in itself is obviously extrememly subjective, but I honestly think we can agree that there are deals and great deals all over the place. To stick with your car theme, I bought my first car from my dad for a dollar..?



> If you're not charging like you have something to offer, consumers see right through you.


You cannot project quality with just price, That parts the sales.

This quote also reminded me of something Robert Kiyosaki had wrote about. He had said he had priced his particular game he created "falsely" high because he knew that the game's concept/lesson was to valuable for people not to treate it as such. So he created a false high price point in thinking people would hold more value in it.(food for thought)


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

loneframer said:


> I don't know if any of you guys have installed the Andersen 4000 series storm doors, but for $97, I wouldn't even consider taking one on.:no:
> 
> Dual closers, majorly involved leverset installation.
> 
> ...


It takes 45 minutes for 1 guy to install that door. And I never had a callback on a storm door. And very few on entry doors.


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

leo g said:


> so if the lady is paying $97 what is the installer getting


$51


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

catfish said:


> It takes 45 minutes for 1 guy to install that door. And I never had a callback on a storm door. And very few on entry doors.


45 minutes?

Even if the door is already in my truck, let's call it 15 minutes drive to the job.

5 minutes to get the tools out and organize the proper bits and tips for the install.

5 minutes to remove the old door and put it in the truck.

5 minutes to remove the new door from packaging and put trash in truck.

Another 15 minute ride back.

Anyone that can cut the side jambs to length, install the hinge jamb on the door, hang it along with the head jamb and latch jamb, set the handle set, install the storm panel, properly set and install two closers, set the door sweep, install the overlap kit on the latch side of the door, install the screw covers, clean up, show the customer how to properly remove the storm panel and install the screen and adjust the closers when required, drive back to the shop and discard the trash in 5 minutes is a god.

Then you have to factor in record keeping, fuel and maintenance, insurance, accounting, expendables, office expenses, etc.

As I said earlier, if the job is next door, you have an additional 30 minutes to install that door. I've only done a couple of the 4000 series, but have never done better than a couple hours, with the job 5 minutes away.

Factoring in overhead, $97 doesn't do it for me and I won't rush the job to make it work.:no:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

loneframer said:


> 45 minutes?
> 
> Even if the door is already in my truck, let's call it 15 minutes drive to the job.
> 
> ...


You should know by now that the guys who say they can do it for that price aren't taking all of that into consideration.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

GettingBy said:


> I had some diplomat who called me pull this pregnant pause caca with me so I also started leaving long pauses between my answers. Meanwhile I am making a drawing of a middle finger on a pad.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

If HD charges $97 then, that is a good base to go with pricing. One can adjust their prices from that point, but at least one knows that is a solid base. 

I am sure there have been hack jobs with box store installs. But, for the most part the jobs go smooth, otherwise they wouldn't bother with such programs. Hack jobs happen with both, the big guys and the independents. A reality is that many h/o's feel more secure with a box store install than one with an independent.

In this case, it was the op's job to lose, something happened in the phone conversation for him to lose it. Maybe these jobs aren't worth the time, who knows?


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

flashheatingand said:


> If HD charges $97 then, that is a good base to go with pricing. One can adjust their prices from that point, but at least one knows that is a solid base.
> 
> I am sure there have been hack jobs with box store installs. But, for the most part the jobs go smooth, otherwise they wouldn't bother with such programs. Hack jobs happen with both, the big guys and the independents. A reality is that many h/o's feel more secure with a box store install than one with an independent.
> 
> In this case, it was the op's job to lose, something happened in the phone conversation for him to lose it. Maybe these jobs aren't worth the time, who knows?


Exactly, and whether or not he wants to do it is entirely a different conversation. 

Home Depot contracts out water heaters. They do it cheap and that's not my customer so I don't let it bother me. My only concern is to build a brand that fits for me. Home Depot does a great job as evidenced by stores all over the country. We can complain all we want about mistakes HD makes but that's meaningless when we consider they seem to be doing just fine in the grand scheme of things. 

Mike


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

flashheatingand said:


> If HD charges $97 then, that is a good base to go with pricing. One can adjust their prices from that point, but at least one knows that is a solid base.
> 
> I am sure there have been hack jobs with box store installs. But, for the most part the jobs go smooth, otherwise they wouldn't bother with such programs. Hack jobs happen with both, the big guys and the independents. A reality is that many h/o's feel more secure with a box store install than one with an independent.
> 
> In this case, it was the op's job to lose, something happened in the phone conversation for him to lose it. Maybe these jobs aren't worth the time, who knows?


Oh boy, you're unfortunately very miss-informed.

If you look at the HD model just based on logic, you will quickly understand that it can't work very well.

The installer is 3rd on the food chain.

Home Depot gets a cut, the 3rd party company that the installer works thru gets a cut and the installer gets a cut. By the time the installer gets his cut, what type of installers do you think work for those types of dollar amounts?

Typicall Home Depot installers are either newbies to the construction field, or are the bottom of the barrel. 

Do you know what the turn over rate is for HD installers? Do you think there are a lot of people working for HD installations long term?

If you use HD to set your rates then you're basically at the same level as the dreg installers that work for HD installations. 

I've done many, many, many jobs for past HD customers and not one of them would ever go back to HD afterwards. I've heard a hundred horror stories about HD installations services from customers mouths and they aren't pretty. I've interviewed many tradesman looking for a job with us who worked for HD installations, I wouldn't hire any of them.

I remember the one guy who was so proud of how 'dedicated' to his job he was. He was bragging to me about no matter how many times it took, when he worked for HD he would keep going back until it was right. 3 times, 4 times, 5 times... sometimes he wouldn't get home until midnight from a job. :blink: Can you imagine the happiness of a customer of yours if you were back for the 3rd time to fix something else and you were in their house until 11:00pm at night?  This guy thought he was 'the man', the customer was vowing never again, what a mess. This guy was missing the big picture, understanding that doing it right the first time holds more value then "I'll keep try'n...."

It's obvious HD the 'retail lumber store' gets customers to try out their installation services, but the installers seem to lose HD the repeat business. Logic dictates and the reality seems to indicate that HD can't hire quality contractors with the amount of cuts of the profits it takes with their existing system, way too many fingers in the pie. Based on my experiences and eveythign I've seen anybody basing thier rates off of them is basing them on a competitor whos installers are delivering mediocre results. With the ultimate guarantee that we will keep trying until we either get it right, or you just throw up your hands and say enough, please don't come back again, it's fine like it is, we will just live with it.

Double or tripple your rates off of HDs and sell the customer on why - dealing with a company owner directly instead of 4 middle men, doing it right the first time, years of experience...

Or go install carpet for $39.00 for an entire house. :whistling


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Welcome back Mike......I'll assume you've been busy.

As far as after the sale, yeah that sounds right because it isn't sustainable. It's the "before" the sale that's a kicker.

It funny actually, in business we all try so hard to do a good job and protect our reputation. Home Depot has really good marketing because the bad jobs don't seem to matter.....people are still lined up and signed up.

Marketing is pretty powerful stuff. On the other hand it might not be the quality of Home Depots marketing as much as it is the fact that many contractors have very poor marketing and in my opinion this is largely the case.

I've said this a hundred times on the forum. Walk into a large neighborhoood and knock on every single door. Ask them to name a local plumber, electrician, drywaller, or remodeled. I've done this and it simply blows me away how many people can't name any. Now ask them where they would go to buy a water heater and they say "Home Depot", ask them where they would buy a wheelbarrow and they would say "Home Depot"

Home Depot does a great job wih marketing but I feel the real problem is contractors do a terrible job of marketing and that's the real crux of the matter.

Mike


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

HD does have a place and most contractors seem to object to everything that is orange or blue.

I cannot do all projects because of my inspection and consulting schedule and and physical limitations, so I rely on them once my wife has picked out the materials. I had some tile installed in a small entry and the intallers (Russians) did a great job. I talked to them during installation, gave them some some water and got their number. I have since called them for other small work that can be done on evenings and week-ends and paid directly PLUS they picked up the materials and did a great job on tile above my fireplace that most contractors would not bother with. Since they were accustomed to doing what was necessary whenever it had to be done.

I hate to say it, but there is a place for using HD as an installer or getting future references.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

concretemasonry said:


> HD does have a place and most contractors seem to object to everything that is orange or blue.
> 
> I cannot do all projects because of my inspection and consulting schedule and and physical limitations, so I rely on them once my wife has picked out the materials. I had some tile installed in a small entry and the intallers (Russians) did a great job. I talked to them during installation, gave them some some water and got their number. I have since called them for other small work that can be done on evenings and week-ends and paid directly PLUS they picked up the materials and did a great job on tile above my fireplace that most contractors would not bother with. Since they were accustomed to doing what was necessary whenever it had to be done.
> 
> I hate to say it, but there is a place for using HD as an installer or getting future references.


It's interesting. I've heard contractors complain that customers came crawling back because of a bad experience the had with HD. I still have yet to have a customer tell me they had a poor experience, maybe that's because my customers wouldn't call HD in the first place. I guess I don't ever hear complaining from them, they call me and I just do it.

I have however had plenty of people say great things about HD so there is a serious disconnect here. Home Depot has a pretty rock solid brand and following. Homeowners I know love to go shop in the store. Again, a national chain that size that size isn't an accident.

I do agree with Mike F though, with margins as tight as they are in our trades a middle man doesn't make much sense. 

Mike


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Home Depots brand is as a lumber store. 

Many, many, many consumers don't even realize that HD will install anything at all. 

HD strength as a business is as a DIY ware house supply.

A smart business sticks to its core. A business that is a public company has to kill it self due to the pressure of ever increasing profits to its shareholders. HD looks to installation services as a means to diversify and increase profits and do the dance with the devil that all public companies have to do.

If they were smart and weren't publically traded they'd stick to their core and work on being absolutely the best as a DIYer warehouse. Of course that would mean they'd have to fire all the people working at corporate who got bonuses for coming up with the idea of selling Christmas tress at Christmas time, pumpkins at Halloween etc...




> And shoppers are getting grumpier. The University of Michigan's annual American Customer Satisfaction index shows Home Depot slipped to dead last among major U.S. retailers, 11 points behind Lowe's.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

loneframer said:


> 45 minutes?
> 
> Even if the door is already in my truck, let's call it 15 minutes drive to the job.
> 
> ...


i have to figure a half day, for the reasons lone stated above. the nicer the door, the more there is to installing it. even the cheap Larson wood core doors still take an hour to install in a new opening.

i did one as a favor once for 100 cause it was a simple door and it was a friends parents. took an hour to go get the door and drive to their house alone. took a little over an hour to remove the old and install the new one, with help.


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> Or go install carpet for $39.00 for an entire house. :whistling


there is a carpet store up the road from me. they have a big sign that says "we fix $39.00 installations".


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

Leo G said:


> Don't the installers have to fork over something like 25% back to HD just to have the honor of slapping it up on the house?


10 or 15% for decks if I remember correctly from when they contacted me about it


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

chris klee said:


> i have to figure a half day, for the reasons lone stated above. the nicer the door, the more there is to installing it. even the cheap Larson wood core doors still take an hour to install in a new opening.
> 
> i did one as a favor once for 100 cause it was a simple door and it was a friends parents. took an hour to go get the door and drive to their house alone. took a little over an hour to remove the old and install the new one, with help.


I just load as many storms as I can in the truck and installed them all in one day 6-10. No, I wasn't counting all the time lone layed out in his post.
I have a travel plan and schedule to follow (my own) its not hard to do 10 a day.
Your HD people have the doors up front on a cart in the morning, just sign and load.
They also have lots of extras, thats where the real money is.
I quit working for them when FL. started permitting door installations about 4 or 5 years ago.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> You should know by now that the guys who say they can do it for that price aren't taking all of that into consideration.


I'd love to see someone do 10 of them in an 8 hour day myself. That's 7.5 hours and 15 minutes each way from the shop.:blink:


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Based on our labor rates, I have spent 97 dollars of my time reading this post :laughing:

If any of my clients threw me under the bus for 3 dollars, they would cease being a client. 

I am not trying to be a jackass about it. But every minute that we spent at a client's site ( commercial or residential) is a "selling minute". We are selling quality, knowledge, creativity and warranty. 

More often than not, my conversations with clients revolve around solving their issues in the most effective way possible (ie: time and money), along with going over plans to not only solve their immediate problems ( or project needs) but looking at upcoming and future projects.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

I hate storm doors. I would have told her 200 bucks. 100 bucks you aren't really making any substantial money and to do it right, it takes more than an hour from the time you pick it up, drive there, install it, clean up, remove the old one, dispose of the old one. unless you are setup to do them all day, everyday, forget about it. I won't do storm doors unless we are working on a house doing other work there and then I can work it into the cost. Either way. 97 bucks? HD can take all the installs away from me and I wouldn't care. I have even told people to go to HD because I don't even want to be bothered with a storm door install. How often can you really line up 4 or 5 to do in one day on multiple houses.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

A couple of things: 

HD is making a profit on the doors. So having someone put it in can basically be a wash as far as install costs go. Their big thing is selling that door to somebody ( HO, DIY, Contractor, or a monkey with a wallet).


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

catfish said:


> It takes 45 minutes for 1 guy to install that door. And I never had a callback on a storm door. And very few on entry doors.


are you working at a neighbors house installing it with no drive times?

45 minutes is everything going perfect every single time, every single door you install. Not going to happen, this world isn't perfect.

I'm with lone on this one. 

I BASE none of my pricing on what HD charges, that is a complete joke.

I rarely get calls for a storm door. it's usually some addition or remodel we have just done and they want one installed. What's worse is when someone puts in a nice entrance door and then trashes it by putting some aluminum storm door on.

BTW Larson is junk and I will never use them again. I have installed a few 3k and 4k andersons(emco) and they aren't too bad. Either way, it's a bad way to make a living doing that all day long. 

10 in a day? that's a joke and no way it's getting done in an 8 hr day. unless you are working in one neighborhood, and you just keep going from one house to the next and they are right next door to the last one.

I'd like to see how well the operate too being slapped in that fast. even new homes have issues, because they are probably some tract house that was built like crap and nothing is level or square.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Great points on both sides of the issue. I have to admit that my marketing skills are very weak. Working on that trying to learn about it. I based my marketing on how my dad does it. He qoutes a price and its take it or leave it. He dosen't care either way. It worked for him, but not for me. So this year I am busting my butt on learning how to sell. And I am going to try that ''pause'' next time someone pulls that I can get it done for less.


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

rex said:


> voices on the phone are so deceving...did a job for a tiffany and she sounded hot on the phone i get there and she was a hog...
> 
> the lady prolly needed the extra 3 bucks for some doughnuts...F her


...always so witty Rex... :laughing:


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## Tech Dawg (Dec 13, 2010)

Quick story, so don't feel bad for losing the job :laughing:

I install screen door at my house, shuts perfect & no leaking....

A neighbor knows I'm a contractor, doesn't ask me but has Lowes install a screen door, doesn't shut right and water leaks inside?? Sub won't come back and Lowes offered no assistance.

Aside from all that, if her install sux, be sure to quote her $96.99 to fix that train derailment of an install :lol:


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> 45 minutes?
> 
> Even if the door is already in my truck, let's call it 15 minutes drive to the job.
> 
> ...


I pulled the quote not to call out Lone here, but this really goes for anyone who thinks along this line.. I have two words for you, "Bundled work". You should rarely ever leave the door for only a 100 dollar job profit, you will lose if you do. Most of these guys aren't doing one door installs there doing like 6 or seven. "I BUNDLE" all most all my work. A customer asks for 5-6 Rhododendrons trimmed, I say I can if there's no rush. Couple days later a customer calls and needs 2 medium sized branches cut plus weeding, I say I can if there's no rush. To put it this way each job in itself is only like a 100 bucs, some even less. It would never be worth it for the customer or myself to try and bid and profit from each one individually. I worked this Monday for seven hours, did eight jobs and made seven hundred after expenses all with "small" jobs - $100 door hangs is irrelevant, doesn't matter, How many door hangs is what matters.. .


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

ApgarNJ said:


> How often can you really line up 4 or 5 to do in one day on multiple houses.


2-3 days a week with HD, the other 3 days I did entry doors or something else for someone else.


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

ApgarNJ said:


> are you working at a neighbors house installing it with no drive times?
> 
> 45 minutes is everything going perfect every single time, every single door you install. Not going to happen, this world isn't perfect.
> 
> ...


You have no idea. I lived in pensacola, FL Its 10 miles across town. Each HD sells doors in its area (mainly) There are 3 in town. When you pick up at a store, most doors are installed within a 5 mile radius of that store.

The warranty period is a year. Most of the homes are not tract homes, but they are new, usually less than a year.

Those doors are manufactured to fit in a pre-hung right on the brickmold. cut that 1/4" off the jamb with a coping saw. Attach header, hinge jamb to door.hang it, installs with 11 screws on hinge side. 5 screws on latch side. Takes 4 bits, 1 included in door pack.

The key to anything is repeating it over and over. And thats how I got to the 45 minutes. First 5 took an average 1 1/2 hours.

No, everything isn't always perfect, except contractors on the internet talking about how other contractors can't do ______________ (fill in the blank however you feel like).


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I don't see how anyone can make money doing 7 door installs for $100 to make a total of $700 a day. After taxes, insurance, overhead, how do you make any money?

How much do you really bring home at the end of the week?


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I don't see how anyone can make money doing 7 door installs for $100 to make a total of $700 a day. After taxes, insurance, overhead, how do you make any money?
> 
> How much do you really bring home at the end of the week?


700 for most guys, if they are a one man band, is good money for most of the country.


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

Your right, $700 a day is nothing. I should have just laid around the house and got food stamps and welfare. According to this crowd, I would have made more money. Thats why I can only afford 2 houses, and the associated crap that goes with them, I'm not making enough.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

So you get $700? They pay all your tools, insurance, telephone, gas, computer, Internet, accounting, vehicle repairs and all the rest?


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

catfish said:


> You have no idea. I lived in pensacola, FL Its 10 miles across town. Each HD sells doors in its area (mainly) There are 3 in town. When you pick up at a store, most doors are installed within a 5 mile radius of that store.
> 
> The warranty period is a year. Most of the homes are not tract homes, but they are new, usually less than a year.
> 
> ...


I've seen the fast installs, and you know what, you can HAVE all the HD installs you want. I'll continue to drive to ONE job a day and not spend all day running back and forth for doors, and going from one house to another for what? what is HD paying you for each door? they are only charging the customer 97, so what are they paying you?

have at it, I can't stand storm doors. maybe you can come up to NJ and install 10 a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year. that i'd like to see.


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

ApgarNJ said:


> I've seen the fast installs, and you know what, you can HAVE all the HD installs you want. I'll continue to drive to ONE job a day and not spend all day running back and forth for doors, and going from one house to another for what? what is HD paying you for each door? they are only charging the customer 97, so what are they paying you?
> 
> have at it, I can't stand storm doors. maybe you can come up to NJ and install 10 a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year. that i'd like to see.


I don't go north of I-70 or south of I-10, thats where America's sh!tholes are. Especially NJ.
Did you even read my post? I doubt it from your reply.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

I read it all. I live in a great area. Lived here all my life and make great money. 
Have fun in FL!
i'm done with this thread, it's wasted too much of my time.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Are you guys still going?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I only install 3 a year, of course I charge 2500 per storm door.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I'm still looking for the answer to my question!


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I'm still looking for the answer to my question!


$700 is good money for that area, even before taxes.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

catfish said:


> $700 is good money for that area, even before taxes.


Nevermind.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Because all the years I worked for someone I had to be in the shop at 7am. That meant I needed to be out of the house at 6:15 and up that much earlier.

Now I work for myself and one of the first things I said to myself was no more 7am at the shop. So now I go in for 8:15 on average. Yesterday I got there a 11am. Still worked an 8 hour day. I don't have to live on someone else's schedule until I need to do a delivery or meet a client. Other than that I work my hours.

If I had my choice I would get up at 10am and go to bed around 2am, that is how I am wired.


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## yamaharacer (Jun 24, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Because all the years I worked for someone I had to be in the shop at 7am. That meant I needed to be out of the house at 6:15 and up that much earlier.
> 
> Now I work for myself and one of the first things I said to myself was no more 7am at the shop. So now I go in for 8:15 on average. Yesterday I got there a 11am. Still worked an 8 hour day. I don't have to live on someone else's schedule until I need to do a delivery or meet a client. Other than that I work my hours.
> 
> If I had my choice I would get up at 10am and go to bed around 2am, that is how I am wired.


I'm not going to lie, I'm the same way. 
but by the middle of the day I feel like I'm not far enough along and it makes me feel like I need to speed up.
so I rather just get up and get a early start.

RF allows the installers to schedule their own day. which I like.

I don't want to say anything neg or pos about them at this point.


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## ped2000 (Jun 24, 2011)

> Tom Bumgardner
> Title
> Experienced Executive
> Demographic info
> ...


http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Tom/Bumgardner



So let me get this straight, RF installations are HD's nationawide middle man and they split the 40% installation kickback with HD. The president of RF Installations also just happens to be a high level suit employed at HD corporate, or was? I suppose that explains why they meet people at a wafflehouse, they're likely a phantom corporation front of home depot themselves. Wow, Tony Soprano ain't got nothing on these gangsters.

Seriously, how is HD not being investigated by the FTC and the justice department? maybe this has something to do with it...



> Seventy-three percent of the Home Depot's campaign contributions went to Republican candidates in the 2005-2006 US elections. "Home Depot's PAC gives money based on a candidate's voting record, committee assignment and leadership position," said company spokesman Jerry Shields.[31] The CEO in this period was Bob Nardelli, a friend of U.S. President George W. Bush.[32] Nardelli hosted a garden reception/fundraiser for Bush at his Atlanta home on May 20, 2004.[33]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Home_Depot


http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/lookup2.php?cycle=2010&strID=C00284885


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I work til 6:45pm whether I go in at 5am or 11am. It is how it is. So it I want to put a lot of hours in I go in for 8 if I want to limit my hours I go in for 10. Don't know why I work til then, but that is the way I seem to be. When I went in at 11 the other day I thought I would just put in a few hours, then I looked up and it was near 7. So I went home :laughing:


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## yamaharacer (Jun 24, 2011)

ped2000 said:


> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Tom/Bumgardner
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sure most of the products you own come from companies that do the same thing.


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

So who writes wikipedia?.... oh yeah..

Short Rant.. I apologize


EVIL CORPORATIONS!!! 
WE SHOULD PENALIZE THEM MORE!!!
RUN THEM OUT OF THE COUNTRY!!!!
TAKE YOUR F"N JOBS AND LEAVE!!!!


That'll teach 'em...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## holmesismyhero (Jun 6, 2011)

When working with a 30% profit margin, if you drop your price 5%, you have to increase sales by about 15% to make the same dollars.

On the converse, if you raise your price 5%, you only have to do about 85% as much work to make the same dollars.

If you are better than the HD installers, then you can charge a premium. More creative marketing, talking it up with satisfied clients and getting referrals, these things allow you to set the price. And if HD beats it, and the HO is happy with that, then they were never a client you would have had.

But, had you matched HD price, you are lessening the value of your work, and establishing a dangerous precedent for yourself.

Time and effort spent in acquiring and keeping the good clients pays off big time. 

If you need extra work between your good clients, use a second company name (division) with which to compete with HD pricing, so as not to sully your good company name...


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## ped2000 (Jun 24, 2011)

TimelessQuality said:


> So who writes wikipedia?.... oh yeah..
> 
> Short Rant.. I apologize
> 
> ...


anyone that can provide actual sources to the data such as
http://images.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/fecimg/?C00284885


and yeah well, they're taking everyone elses job by undercutting 50-70% beyond reasonable overhead. So keep supporting it and you'll be working those cutting edge 18K net annual "jobs" you're afraid of losing. then you'll turn around dumbfounded and wonder why no one has any money to higher a real contractor in the great race to the bottom.


http://economics.about.com/cs/microeconomics/a/monopoly.htm


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Whatever dude:thumbup:
.........


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

yamaharacer said:


> I recently was "hired" by RF installations. I've been out with them on a few jobs now and what is being said here is pretty accurate in some cases.
> 
> there does seem to be at least one of the installers that is a hack.
> 
> ...


Put them doors on the road, some one will get them. I made about 150-200 dollars a month from selling the aluminum from old storm doors and sliders.

The better looking doors, I donate to habitat for humanity.


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

holmesismyhero said:


> When working with a 30% profit margin, if you drop your price 5%, you have to increase sales by about 15% to make the same dollars.
> 
> On the converse, if you raise your price 5%, you only have to do about 85% as much work to make the same dollars.
> 
> ...


I went to work for them when I got tired of the idiots aka homeowners and builders.


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## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

ped2000 said:


> anyone that can provide actual sources to the data such as
> http://images.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/fecimg/?C00284885
> 
> 
> ...


According to the contractors on this site, if you do good work you don't have to worry about HD and Lowes.

Evidently, they are YOUR competition. Figure out what you can do to seperate yourself from them.


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## User78140 (Jun 23, 2011)

Gary H said:


> Great points on both sides of the issue. I have to admit that my marketing skills are very weak. Working on that trying to learn about it. I based my marketing on how my dad does it. He qoutes a price and its take it or leave it. He dosen't care either way. It worked for him, but not for me. So this year I am busting my butt on learning how to sell. And I am going to try that ''pause'' next time someone pulls that I can get it done for less.


You're on the right track! If you make a good effort to start selling, then you're going to find that you can charge literally whatever price you wish AND get it. I don't think I've ever sold a storm door for less than $500 and I've sold plenty at $1000 each.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

catfish said:


> I went to work for them when I got tired of the idiots aka homeowners and builders.


I hear that - but builders are far worse than HO's ... I never would'a thunk it!


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> Yesterday I got there a 11am. Still worked an 8 hour day.


I hear ya, but were basically on other peoples AND natures schedule most of the time anyways if only for a main reason of "store" hours and "solstice's", working around the dark sucs and you get less accomplished.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Not me. While working on the project in my shop I come and go as I please. The only time I have to respect others time is during the installation phase.


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## Osito (Mar 4, 2008)

Come on they need to read the fine print. All pricing from the big box stores are always basic installation. There WILL BE AN UP CHARGE, how else will the installer make any money.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Osito -

You mean to say that a good contractor/installer relies on a "clean-up" for profit from his work?

I have never paid a "clean-up" charge and they will always leave behind the materials that I bought and they picked up and delivered, but they always took the waste and cleaned up. They would also leave what I wanted for samples and matching (tile, carpet remnents). I fthe guy was good, I made sure I got his name and cell number, so he could take a chance ot not on a side job and the choice is his.

The best installers I had from HD were Russians that did a great tile job. Fortunately, I had photos from Russia and the ice was broken. Sometimes you have to be salesman to be a good customer. I had them come back a year later and do tile over brick on a fireplace front, mantle and hearth.

The quality of the installers work was very good, but the warning calls from the installing company to maintain the schedule were a bit annoying. Even the Russians got text messages that ate into their schedule because it was not a big install.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Shoot, I was away on vacation and missed all this.
Let me fill you in on the "pre-middleman" HD installer days since I was one.

Storm doors are loss leaders to HD. They are considered something to get the customer in the store and get them into HD's "installation" mode. When I first got hooked up with them back in '93, they used to have all the "costs" on the paperwork. They made about $15 on the sale of the storm door and then with installation they made another $15. To them, having a storm door installed doubled their gross profit on each storm door.

As an installer I got paid to measure my own jobs, then got paid for the installation. Once you do a few doors you will learn very fast the repetitive steps needed for that particular door. They are all basically the same thing with some subtle differences from model to model.

Anything that was not going to be installed in a new prehung entry door with brickmould was extra work and was marked up accordingly. I set the rate for that extra work and HD tacked on 30% for the retail cost to the ho.
Since storm doors were loss leaders it was very common for HD to sell that install for a few bucks less than what they paid me on the labor end because they still made their door "sale", and then I would say only 50% of the installations were "basic", so they were taking the 30% mark up on the extra labor charge and the ho had to pay for the extra wood for the jamb build out so HD was now selling wood and making their profit off that wood sale too.

There are definitely butchers out there, and usually after a few botched jobs the sales people knew not to bother giving anymore work to them since it meant that they were going to have a headache on their hands. After no work the butchers were gone.
Back in the mid '90's to when I parted ways in '03, the majority of storm doors went on new houses and most new houses had front doors with sidelights, which meant extra. They paid me $100 basic and what I considered a basic build out charge added another 65% of that (total $165 for installation on a door unit with sidelights). 

I easily did 4-5 of these a day and that was not rushing from job to job and was usually done and home by 4:00. I used to even eat lunch back then. No sales calls, just pick the jobs up off my fax machine.

When you do these you are set up for "production". There is no fumbling around for bits etc. because you only use at the most 2 or 3 bits so thats all you keep and you buy those sizes in bulk. I used seperate drills and screw guns so there is no changing. The only tools I carried were what was needed to install the doors.
Another thing I did was pick up all my doors in advance. If you have a rainy day you go out and measure and pick up doors. I remember one particular time I picked up 29 storm doors. That way I had all the doors in my shop and when I scheduled the job they were stacked so that they went on the truck in the order that they were being installed so when I went to the job they came off the truck in order.
Almost all the sidelight build outs were the same (mostly ThermaTru continuous sill units) so I had my build outs pre cut to take with me
It was easy money and the my biggest overhead was gas that averaged $20 day.
The axe came when they called us into a district meeting in the winter to tell us how we had in one year brought installations for the district from $40 million to $70 million. Then about 3 months later I got a call and was told that all the independent installers were being terminated and all installation were going to an independent company which would be assigned a territory. They gave us the phone # of the company and the guy told everything is going to stay as is...except now he was going to take 30% of what I was getting...ummm, no thanks.
That was almost the end of my HD days, except since the new company couldn't get anybody to work for those rates they got the butchers back. When a job got botched the main store I worked out of (total of three) called me and asked me to go correct the botched jobs.
They used to pay me cash right on the spot when I came back to store after I was finished.


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## Redliz75 (Jun 23, 2011)

Gary H said:


> Got a call today and it was a referal from a past customer. Cool. Her: how much to install a screen door. Me: I said it hard to price the job without looking at it, but since you said that it is a newer house, the job would cost $100 labor only.
> Her: The home depot said that they would do it for $97. For $3 less I am going to let them do it.
> Me: Ok. Let me know how it goes.
> 
> At least I didn't drive over there and waste gas and time.








Why do some of you guys shop at Home Depot when they are competing against and underbidding you????????


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