# Workman's Comp



## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

AaronB. said:


> If youre not paying the work comp for the work youre doing, then youre cheating the system.
> 
> I know whole crews of roofers, all working for the same company, and all of the workers are "subs" It is cheating, plain and simple. I also know whole crews of "carpenters" that do nothing but roofing. This is also cheating the system.
> 
> If youre paying the proper classification of insurance for the work youre doing, then you probably do not fit into this class of scum.


I will take issue with that Aaron. Several years ago I hired a guy who wanted to handle his own taxes because he also sold real estate. Basically he wanted cash money, no payroll taxes, no insurance, no bene's. I consulted with my attorney to make sure I could do this legally. I had to get a certificate of liability every year from him. I could not tell him when to work, IOW, he set his own hours. I could not tell him what to do, although I could "guide" him. I could not tell him how to do it, although I could tell him how I would do it. I gave him a 1099 instead of W2 at years end. 
Basically, he was an independent contractor just like me. That may be part of why some of you on this forum seem to find it so difficult to understand how we do business. REMEMBER, OUR STATES DO NOT REQUIRE LICENSING!!!!! Yes, if we have employees who require payroll taxes & work under direct supervision, then WC is required, and we all abide by that law. But in my area, there are alot of contractors who work together. There is nothing illegall about that as long as they are legit contractors with the required registrations & insurance. 
Also, this way of doing work does not automatically make us "jacks" or "scums" or "scabs" or "low-end shack builders" or whatever else you guys seem to think about us. I know we will never change some of your minds, but if you ever get a chance to travel the country, take a little time to stop & look around. You'll be surprised to find out that you are not the ONLY one who does quality work legally. 

I will, however, agree with your statement about the roofers classified as carpenters. That is cheating, & I hope you still don't think that is what I am doing?? I AM NOT A ROOFER, I do all residential construction. Sure, I have to shingle the new construction I do, but that is classified under construction on my policy, as long as roofing doesn't exceed 30% of total business.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I placed a post yesterday that must have offended the moderators since it was deleted?

I do general costruction, rate is 13.7 % of wages..a little over $3000 per employee. This covers roofing, which is inclusive with our classified work. I now have 6 full time employees, which means I pay a chunk into the system. 

I have a crew I use nearly every day..they are self insured with liability and WC..same classification. 

When we erect steel buildings, which is NOT my primary activity, I sub out the welding (my son in law) and he is self insured, with his own equipment. The 2 of us erect the framework, and since I do not pay WC on myself, we are completely legal.

Since I am a general contractor, we do a wide range of work, from concrete to steel roofs. We used to pour inground storm cellars til the WC ruined it for the high rating, something about guys down the box with wet concrete on top, supposed to be really dangerous. My primary activity is residential home building and commercial construction.

Adding to what maj said above, a lot of people on this forum still do not get the picture of market and area. What works for us does not mean it would work anywhere else. 

The $200 a sq/ft houses or $700 a sq roofs will not go in this area...people here won't go that distance. The trade off is we don't have the killer taxes, insurance, or ridiculous regulation other areas have.

I enjoy what I do, I have fun doing it, and I still work hard every day...being the boss doesn't mean kicking my feet up and watching the money roll in. In a few hours we will be out doing a 90+ yard pour for a shop building....and I will be in the mud with all the boys.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

By the way, my insurance company allows me to multi-classify my employees. For example when they are working on roofs they are classified as roofers (37%)and when working on gutters classified as sheet metal and siding workers(19%).


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Grumpy said:


> By the way, my insurance company allows me to multi-classify my employees. For example when they are working on roofs they are classified as roofers (37%)and when working on gutters classified as sheet metal and siding workers(19%).


So do you have to keep track of those hours for the audit at years end? That means you have to justify the seperate classifications? Do you do this with time cards or how do you prove the hours worked in each subcat.? Just curious....


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Joasis, Thanks For The Permission To Post My Opinion. I Am Soryy If You Don't Like My Opinion Of Horse Barn Roofing. Yes, I Think It Looks Like A Horse Barn Roof When Installed Either On A Horse Barn Or Otherwise.

I Think It Looks Excellent On A Horsebarn Though.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Vey, very uplifting Aaron! That should be the post of the day!


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

maj said:


> So do you have to keep track of those hours for the audit at years end? That means you have to justify the seperate classifications? Do you do this with time cards or how do you prove the hours worked in each subcat.? Just curious....


Yes I track these hours seperately each week so at the end of the year it's as simple as a computer print out. Employees are required to detail what they are doing on their time sheet so my book keeper can properly classify when compiling their pay checks, and logging hours to jobs. 

I could literally show how many hours were spent on each job for each classification by computer print out, or sort it by over all classification. We submit both Quick Books reports and have the time sheets to back up the data if necessary.


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

In MA my wc will not give me a different rate if I have my neighbors kid on the job site cleaning up (not using tools or on a ladder). Do you folks have any luck with a category for someone who is not using tools? Also, some of my guys are never on a ladder taller than a step ladder (door installers) and I still pay the same rate as someone who builds homes.

In MA the wc audit guys drive around to job sites checking on your category. If they catch you roofing all the time without the correct coverage they will turn you in for insurance fraud!


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

dougchips said:


> In MA the wc audit guys drive around to job sites checking on your category. If they catch you roofing all the time without the correct coverage they will turn you in for insurance fraud!


Amen to them. We need them over here... but how do they knoww here you are working?

As I have said many times, the insurance company should start listing peoples overall classification on their insurance certificates. This would weed out alot of fraud for those listed as interior carpenters but doing roofing.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

Grumpy said:


> Alot of guys cheat and force each employee to be classified like a sub and carry their own insurance. Ok so employee A goes out and gets a policy then exempts himself and pays $750 for a piecve of paper that he gives to his boss. Then his boss presents those papers to his insurance agent at audit time and ends up not paying a premium because the "subs" are covered. Then employee B, C and D go out and do the same... Even if the boss pays for those 4 policies his price is only $3,000 a year.
> 
> *It's cheating and it is very criminal but it is also very common*.


What's "criminal" is making _us_ pay outrageous sums of money in order to do our job, _and_ to get nothing in return. :furious: 

And why is it exactly that claims are so much higher in CA? It makes no sense, and it's not fair to people like us.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Melissa said:


> What's "criminal" is making _us_ pay outrageous sums of money in order to do our job, _and_ to get nothing in return. :furious:
> 
> And why is it exactly that claims are so much higher in CA? It makes no sense, and it's not fair to people like us.


In my area, it isnt the work comp that is the problem (WC is built into everything you buy thats manufactured in the USA). The problem is the guys that do not carry properly classified WC, and do it only to go-a-low-ballin. If they could actually sell their work, then they could price it right. At least in theory, this would allow for a more fair marketplace, and quality could prevail over low price. The quality tradesmen would work for quality wages, and the low priced fellas would be paying sub-par labor rates and not able to attract the quality people needed in any trade of choice.

I still think we should look at the culprits that do not pay, or pay on under-classified policies. They do it only to lower the selling price, and it hurts their industry overall. It has the biggest impact on those that are trying to be legit.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

AaronB. said:


> In my area, it isnt the work comp that is the problem (WC is built into everything you buy thats manufactured in the USA). The problem is the guys that do not carry properly classified WC, and do it only to go-a-low-ballin. If they could actually sell their work, then they could price it right. At least in theory, this would allow for a more fair marketplace, and quality could prevail over low price. The quality tradesmen would work for quality wages, and the low priced fellas would be paying sub-par labor rates and not able to attract the quality people needed in any trade of choice.
> 
> I still think we should look at the culprits that do not pay, or pay on under-classified policies. They do it only to lower the selling price, and it hurts their industry overall. It has the biggest impact on those that are trying to be legit.


No Aaron, I'm sorry, but I think you are absolutely mistaken. The problem is the loosers that that file false claims and the idiots that don't catch it! It's not fair. I shouldn't have to pay for them! I doubt that any one working for us will ever have to use WC! It's a big fat waste of money! Sure it's the customers money, because you just charge more, but why? It's just not fair. And I don't get why you're so enthusiastic about workmans comp. Do you like to giving money to the state? Are you that enthusiastic about taxes too? :laughing:

And I'd like to know what % you have to pay. Here it's 26%. (for remodeling. Not sure about roofing) I think you'd be singing a different tune if you lived in CA. Where EVERYTHING is A LOT more expensive. It's near impossible to make a profit when everyone has got their hand out.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

As stated above roofing is hovering around 37%. On a level playing field it shouldn't matter what the rate is because all roofers in that location would have to complete near the same rate depending on their expeirence modification rate. I've no problem paying my insurance bills because it is marked into my job costs. I try my damndest to place a percentage of payroll into a special savings account specifically for audit time.

I do have a problem with those who get away with cheating the system, rather than playing by the rules. It's like licensing, I've no problem with someone having to get a license to work in a certain trade (infact I encourage it), but I do have a problem when someone is working in the same trade without a license and nothing is done about it. That pisses me off. I have no problem paying my WC rate because it's about the same as everyone elses but I do have a problem when I am competing with a roofer who is classified as an interior carpenter, or has each of his employees listed as subs and avoids paying any insurance at all. That's what's not fair.

No matter what, it's very very hard to operate legitimately and still pull a profit.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

The basic problem with WC is 2 areas: Wrongful claims, driving the insurance rates through the roof, and the classifacation system in general.

We used to pay around 15% on steel erection til 2 claims in one year shot the rates up. One happened 20 miles from me, a guy working on a roof of a steel building 20+ feet in the air stepped through a skylight and is on full disability today.( don't know what this had to do with red iron erection rates) This accident and a guy walking the red iron and falling jumped the rates. I think WC should also be rated on claim history. If you have never had a claim, you should have a lower rating.....

Wrongful claims and abuse of the system also is fueling the increases. I don't know if lawyers do it in other parts of the country, but here, they advertise with a line saying "hurt on the job?"...call us, we can help (sue the **** out of someone), and lawyers regularly represent WC cases in the hearings, etc. It seems like we reward "accidents" with cash....

To me, being fair would be a WC rate at 10% or so for all construction, paid with withholding taxes and fica...kinda like I wish we did income taxes..flat rate, paid everytime you make a deposit, and April 14th wouldn't mean much more then rainy weather.....I know, I know, wishful thinking. But if the system was fairly applied, I think compliance would increase.....


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Melissa said:


> No Aaron, I'm sorry, but I think you are absolutely mistaken. The problem is the loosers that that file false claims and the idiots that don't catch it! It's not fair. I shouldn't have to pay for them! I doubt that any one working for us will ever have to use WC! It's a big fat waste of money! Sure it's the customers money, because you just charge more, but why? It's just not fair. And I don't get why you're so enthusiastic about workmans comp. Do you like to giving money to the state? Are you that enthusiastic about taxes too? :laughing:
> 
> And I'd like to know what % you have to pay. Here it's 26%. (for remodeling. Not sure about roofing) I think you'd be singing a different tune if you lived in CA. Where EVERYTHING is A LOT more expensive. It's near impossible to make a profit when everyone has got their hand out.


I am currently paying 37.8% roofing...all kinds and drivers.

I do not pay my WC to the state. Sure they get a fee from it, but I pay my WC premiums to my insurance company. I am pretty psyched that I price my work correctly and have no problem paying my share. 

I am not going to sit here and whine about it and do nothing, though. I DO write to state agencies requesting changes, and whatnot, but mostly to enforce licensing laws, including not giving roofing licences to anyone that is not listed a a roofing contractor. If this was enforced, we would have many fewer fly by night outfits, and the playing field would level off. I would still sell at premium rates because the quality of roofing is in the details, and most just don't have what it takes in my area.

I am also glad to know that I am covered in case a worker injures himself and I am liable. As a matter of fact, I pay for insurance over and above what is required by state law. This gives my customers better protection, as well as myself.

Taxes? No problem there, either. I know that we all have to support our government. I DO have a problem with all the pork, though.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

joasis said:


> I think WC should also be rated on claim history. If you have never had a claim, you should have a lower rating...


Isn't that called an experience modification rate (EMR)?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

AaronB. said:


> but mostly to enforce licensing laws, including not giving roofing licences to anyone that is not listed a a roofing contractor.


Aaron, I am pretty sure when I got my bond for licensing, one of the requirements was listing as a roofing contractor. In know for a fact I was asked by my insurance agent what classification when I priced out the bonding, and I also know that the insurance company had to fill out a state provided form with the word roofing contractor plastered all over it.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Grumpy said:


> Aaron, I am pretty sure when I got my bond for licensing, one of the requirements was listing as a roofing contractor. In know for a fact I was asked by my insurance agent what classification when I priced out the bonding, and I also know that the insurance company had to fill out a state provided form with the word roofing contractor plastered all over it.


Well thats a good thing, grumps, but I know for a fact that this isnt required, as too many carpentry (remodellers) around me are called construction this and exteriors that, and do not have the proper insurances. NONE have roofing in their names...that would make them roofing contractors and the insurance companies would charge them as such.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

joasis said:


> The basic problem with WC is 2 areas: Wrongful claims, driving the insurance rates through the roof, and the classifacation system in general.
> 
> We used to pay around 15% on steel erection til 2 claims in one year shot the rates up. One happened 20 miles from me, a guy working on a roof of a steel building 20+ feet in the air stepped through a skylight and is on full disability today.( don't know what this had to do with red iron erection rates) This accident and a guy walking the red iron and falling jumped the rates. I think WC should also be rated on claim history. If you have never had a claim, you should have a lower rating.....
> 
> ...


Another problem I have read about...let say a carpenter is sheething the roof, he falls, they will sometimes classify this as a roofing related accident.

I am always VERY weary of who I hire...not that you can be sure of anyone, but some guys just give me that "I'm gonna get hurt and sue you" vibe. I prefer to do my own work and sub out the shingles nowadays. I still do the metal and flashings, and all commercial and repair work myself with a crew.


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

Grumpy, my audit guy claims that they drive around and check job sites. Maybe they are bored and follow crews from the office in the morning. I guess you could also call your states insurance fraud dept. if you knew that someone was a "roofer" that had different coverage. Our state will go after them for fraud and let wc go after them for the difference in coverage, which could add up and put someone out of business. This might be worth looking into if someone is getting your jobs because of lower overhead/fraud. I play by the rules and still hate my annual audits.


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## gutts-1 (Apr 1, 2006)

so many people thru the years have had "subcontractors" set up to work for them. Here in ct. if someone gets seriously hurt the lawers will roll right over that "he a sub" You have to pay to play, I wish everybody else had to pay the same.
P.s. Grumpy...
Do you divide you roof work from your gutter work on the up and up ?? The problem is that there is lots of money for people who don't play by the rules.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

AaronB. said:


> I am currently paying 37.8% roofing...all kinds and drivers.
> 
> I do not pay my WC to the state. Sure they get a fee from it, but I pay my WC premiums to my insurance company. I am pretty psyched that I price my work correctly and have no problem paying my share.
> 
> ...


37.8% Crap! That's a lot of dough. Yeah, I didnt see that above. I guess it depends on what you pay your guys as to how much that affects you. 

I agree that everyone should have to pay it if we have to. But I still think that the rate is too high and it's for absolutely nothing except to be "legit" and for loosers to go on disability (and a small # of legitimate claims) is a waste of friggin money all around, for our customers for us for our guys that we could be paying more instead, etc.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Gutts the short answer is YES. I try to do everything on the up and up. When the guys are cleaning gutters their time sheet says gutter cleaning, which ends up getting classified as exterior carpentery for some reason, which is a higher % than sheet metal workers. When the guys are doing gutter installs or repairs they are classified as sheet metal workers. When the guys are doing roofing, skylights or roof repairs they are classified as roofers.

At the time of my first WC audit I described various job duties and choose proper classification for that duty with my insurance company, not the broker, and not the auditor but the dispute department who has total authority over your premiums. 

All in all it took us about 40 hours to get properly setup and change the time chards and update the accounts in quickbooks, but it was time well spent because it will perpetually save me thousands in insurance premiums.

Also by the way I would like to mention that of my actual employees I only have two that "work" regularly. They do repairs, and gutter cleanings, and small jobs small enough to be completed in one day by two guys. Anything larger goes to a fully insured sub crew.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

I do not believe that if there was no work comp requirement that there would be more money available to pay more. I beleive that the same scenario would still be in place, with lowballers low ballin.

I pay me men a good living wage. I bid it in, and I sell it. I do not sell at the loca "going rates" This would have put me under, or least underthe table long ago. Negotiate the work as it needs to be. Do not let the "going rate" type of scenario keep you from making money.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

I'm hearing 71-76% for roofers.

I've got a 2 million dollar roofing liabilty policy so there's no way to prove work is done in the 30-40% perameter of carpentry work.

I sub out to my brother who has a roofing policy.


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## ocjmakaveli (Jul 7, 2006)

maj said:


> I will take issue with that Aaron. Several years ago I hired a guy who wanted to handle his own taxes because he also sold real estate. Basically he wanted cash money, no payroll taxes, no insurance, no bene's. I consulted with my attorney to make sure I could do this legally. I had to get a certificate of liability every year from him. I could not tell him when to work, IOW, he set his own hours. I could not tell him what to do, although I could "guide" him. I could not tell him how to do it, although I could tell him how I would do it. I gave him a 1099 instead of W2 at years end.
> Basically, he was an independent contractor just like me. That may be part of why some of you on this forum seem to find it so difficult to understand how we do business. REMEMBER, OUR STATES DO NOT REQUIRE LICENSING!!!!! Yes, if we have employees who require payroll taxes & work under direct supervision, then WC is required, and we all abide by that law. But in my area, there are alot of contractors who work together. There is nothing illegall about that as long as they are legit contractors with the required registrations & insurance.
> Also, this way of doing work does not automatically make us "jacks" or "scums" or "scabs" or "low-end shack builders" or whatever else you guys seem to think about us. I know we will never change some of your minds, but if you ever get a chance to travel the country, take a little time to stop & look around. You'll be surprised to find out that you are not the ONLY one who does quality work legally.
> 
> I will, however, agree with your statement about the roofers classified as carpenters. That is cheating, & I hope you still don't think that is what I am doing?? I AM NOT A ROOFER, I do all residential construction. Sure, I have to shingle the new construction I do, but that is classified under construction on my policy, as long as roofing doesn't exceed 30% of total business.




I have a question about the above quote if anyone can email me at [email protected] it would be much appreciated.

My current problem is that I'm 21 and just starting a siding and & roofing business. I saved up for about a year and had $5000. I've spent $700 on roofing and siding insurance for 300,000 liability coverage.I still have to pay $200 a month for the rest of the year the total insurance cost is about $2500. I am in the process of applying for a roofing contractor license and I must have a surety bond which I did qualify for but will spend about $2000 to get it. I also have to pay the rest of the 10,000 surety bond in payments. Now I was told I had to get workers comp for my 1 employee since me and my bud are going to be doing the work but its about 20-30% and they said I have to give an estimate on how much I think my employee is going to make my first year so I said around $10,000 if all goes well but they can only get me for at least 15,000 minimum payroll. My current problem is that I've spent a good amount of my money that took me a long time to save up.

I need some affordable way for me and my friend to keep going without going into really bad debt. I also have to pay bills and rent since I'm the man of the house at the moment I live with my mom and younger siblings.

I'm just finding it hard since I also want to be independent and buy a pickup at the moment a friend of mine is going to let me borrow his but I would like to buy my own as soon as I can.

The issue is if I have an employee i have to have workers comp so i can get a roofing license. WC is really expensive though and I won't have steady work for my business it'll just be residential jobs here and there. The thing that really   me is that time and time again Government mandated insurance is always super expensive.

It's always that an insurance company thinks "Oh there was a claim darn it I won't make $100,000 this year I better jack up insurance so I can keep my pay up" meanwhile I don't know how anyone could ever pay the 85% WC I've read about on here.

I'm mostly going to be doing 1-3 jobs a month on weekends to help me out financially and if it does better so be it.

I know of a couple companies that somehow have insurance and hire all illegals and have been working that way for years but I don't want to work like that.

I'm just running out of money into things that seem very stupid. My bud and I myself rather make more money without insurance than a lot less money or even go into debt with insurance.

There's another thing I don't understand my bud works for a siding company that has over 150 employees yet most are illegally working and they have no benefits whatsoever. They are not sub contractors or anything. They work at least 40 hours a week yet they don't get holidays or paid vacations EVER.

I'm also investing into some roofer harnesses so that if you fall off you don't land on the ground etc.

I would just like to avoid WC for 6 months until it's either more stable or I know that I can't make it.

regardless if worst comes to worst I'll go ahead and do it otherwise I can't get my roofing license.

PS: for some reason I was declined WC by 2 companies but I don't even know why but I think it's because I've had no payroll yet.

Thanks for any help

I'm in illinois


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## RobertF (Jan 20, 2006)

I don't know where you are bud, but in California all the owners/partners of the corporation can be exempt from workers comp. Now granted, if one of you gets hurt... you're SOL unless you have existing health insurance. Check it out as it might be an option for you


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## J&MHRS (Jul 6, 2006)

Man 30k is alot here in michigan it runs 40.00 for every 100 they make and for siding its 14$ on the 100 so roofing 40% and siding is 14% and to me thats alot


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Starting out like you are, you might consider employee leasing...one of the companies that willpay your employees and make all the deductions, insurance, etc..and you Write them a check for the time your employee worked. Like you pay them $20 an hour, they pay your employee $12, and the difference is keeping you covered on withholdings, etc.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Hmmm tough one. I was there, eight years ago, also in Illinois.

I started with no WC and was working by myself. I think the bond for the license in Illionois is 25,000.00 Mine is, anyways, but the unlimited license may have sonething to do with it. The residential; license may be less $$$.

The only way I see it can be done is to sell the work at what it ACTUALLY costs plus profit and overhead. Most of these baboons around my area will work for the "going rate", which would never allow you to:
1. Make a living wage for you and your employees
2. Pay all the proper insurances, tax burdens, overheads, and
3. TURN A PROFIT.

You must SELL the work, and resist giving it away just to keep working. Keeping busy is good, but keeping busy and being married to roofs for no profit is BAD. 

The reason you were turned down for WC was that it is a high risk venture, usually run by a couple of idiots when starting up. Roofing is very dangerous. Insurance companies know that startups arent going to have all the safety equipment and written safety plan in place in most cases. 

The only way you will get the proper insurance is to go through the pool. This is state regulated, so they cannot raise your rates without first getting a vote in the general assembly, and then raising the rates for the entire pool. This would have to be done by the insurance regualators, not by the insurance companies. Once an applicaton is submitted for roofing W/C, ane of the qualified companies MUST take you. They cannot turn down the application, they cannot raise the rates for you. They have to do this in order to insure other classifications in the state. This is the involuntary insurance market. 

The bond should only have to be paid at a % of the bond value for a surety bond (which is required for your licensing). My 25,000 yearly bond for the IDPFR cost me $150.00. Remember, that most municipalities also require state licensing and additional bonding in order to obtain permits. This means usually a couple hundred extra when you apply for your first permit in any given town, plus a fee for every permit pulled in that town. 

It is a good system, but the rules are so rarely enforced that I have made a good business repairing the work of those that cannot get licensing and carry no insurance and have no skilled workforce (you cannot pay a tradesman's wages and insurnace and WC (not to mention benefits) on the "going rate")

I will stop here, but if you have anymore questions, ask away. I am here in IL and have been there, done that.


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## GAK (Apr 22, 2005)

Workers Comp Insurance. A topic near and dear to my heart. I am not here to get involved in the pissing match about who is right and who is wrong. 
I carry the proper insurance for one reason. I have too much to lose and want to be able to sleep at night.
It seems the majority of "contractors" are playing games because they believe that they have to cheat to survive. I expect that for many of them that is true. They do have to cheat for a number of reasons. 
They have no knowledge of how to run a legit business. 
They don't understand how to properly determine the price that they need to charge to stay in business and still play by the rules.
They do not believe that their customers are going to pay the price that they would need to charge.
They are not targeting the right customers.
They don't know how to sell their work.
They don't believe it is possible to play by the rules and survive.
They don't want the hassles of messing with insurance rules and the government rules. 
They don't think...........................................
The list goes on forever. I haven't even touched on drug and alcohol problems or personality disorders which seem to be rampant in this business.
Most of these reasons stem from a lack of knowledge and from their own preconceived notions about how things work. The old saying is "If you believe something can't be done you are right." We limit ourselves more often than not. The biggest hurdle in business is convincing yourself that something can be done differently. Once you understand and convince yourself the rest is fairly easy.
So much for the rant.

I have finally gotten out of the state pool for W/C in IL and my rates are at $28.46 per $100 for roofing. It took 2 years and a bunch of BS but I finally did it. I am probably 1 out of 25 or more roofers in the area that even carries it. Most guys are playing one game or another to avoid this expense. I understand why they are doing it, probably more than they understand it themselves. 
Unfortunately the games that are being played in this trade are dragging it down so far that it is very difficult to bring good quality help into the trade. All of the trades seem to be being dragged further down every year so that there is little chance of offering anything of value to potential workers to bring them into the trades. It's never been easy but it's harder than ever. I did not encourage my sons to get into the roofing business.

Just my $.02. I'll shut up now.

OCJMakaveli. I sent you an e-mail. Drop me a line when you get a chance. What part of Illinoise are you in?


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

GAK, nice post. How did you get out of the pool? I am interested to know.

I am still nearly 40%


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I just got out of the state sponsored CompSource this week...and it wasn't that hard. Accident free for 5 years, and re-classification reduced my premiums from 13.8% to less then 11%....and the reason I was checking is to take on a new customer and I was guessing I was going to get ripped up a notch or two. The only rub is (and I don't call it a bad thing) is to limit high work to 25 feet or less (eave height), no red iron erection by any employees, documented safety meetings weekly.

We can do work over 25 feet with proper equipment, which we have, providing the work falls within our general classification. Fabricated steel buildings and house constrution to two story is within our general class.

The only bad side to the private carriers requirements is having to document all subs paid (by audit) and verification of insurance or certificate of non coverage. If I hire a sub, and he says he has it, I have to see it and copy it, and if he doesn't, I have to pay a percentage of his "wages" to cover him on an open policy. No big deal, I guess....so it goes.

I am still excluded, and I can still hire insured subs for red iron erection, and then my guys legally take over and sheet the building.

This is not "cheating" the system, or playing the game to reduce premiums, or otherwise not playing by the rules. This is what we did before, and now we get it cheaper with the only changes being paperwork and the safety meetings.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

If I were you, I would have their insurance agent send you a cert. made out to you coming directly from the agents office.

it is easy to falsify an insurance cert.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

joasis said:


> The only bad side to the private carriers requirements is having to document all subs paid (by audit) and verification of insurance or certificate of non coverage. If I hire a sub, and he says he has it, I have to see it and copy it, and if he doesn't, I have to pay a percentage of his "wages" to cover him on an open policy. No big deal, I guess....so it goes.


I don't find that to be a bad thing. The audits take only a few minutes with properly documented books. I just print out a quickbooks report, and show my certificates. I tell any sub asking to work for me, if they don't have insurance don't bother coming in. I wont give them a work order until I have a certificate of insurance faxed to me from their agent with my company name as additional insured.

BTW the saftey meetings are OSHA requirements so if you ever get a ticket they usually ask to see proof of saftey meetings.


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## P construction (Jul 14, 2006)

WC in north carolina the min is 17,500.00 
that you need to show on the books 
when you get audited your books best show the payroll


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## duranduran (Jun 16, 2006)

*New assembly law in Calif. Jan 01,2007*

Well we just got bentover again here in California. The new law states that ALL ROOFERS MUST CARRY WC WHETHER OR NOT THEY HAVE EMPLOYEES! ...........How much is college tuition these days?...Most of the accidents come from hot work which is mainly commercial work, and it's passed on to the residential roofer because it's all under one category. C-39 <---taboo 
Now as far as a surety bond. California first timers will pay $500.00 for a 1 year bond. But hey! don't worry it will go down the next year the bonding company told me. Then why the hell did they send me a bill for renewal (accident free and flawless mind you) for $1,081.00? 

Said, Californy is the place you oughta be
So they loaded up the truck and they moved to Beverly
Hills, that is, swimmin' pools, movie stars, pimps, pushers, insurance scams, high gov't taxes forcing small business to move out of state. Well, now it's time to say goodbye to Jed and all his kin, whos sitting in a prison for tax evasion........Y'all come back now, hear?......yeah right, can't afford to come back.


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## AaronB. (Oct 6, 2004)

Charge it into your pricing. It shouldnt be a problem (in theory anyways)


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I love California...the land, the climate...everything except LA, but I would never live or work there..I couldn't hack the stress...just knowing you are getting new one ripped on taxes, insurance, fuel, permits, licenses, cost of living...on and on...there are lots of older people moving to Oklahoma, Texas, and New Mexico from both coasts just to beat the high cost of living. 

You might make great money in California, but it costs like hell to get it.


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## AtlantaLawn.com (Sep 24, 2006)

in GA, its 40% labor, and we get 3 audits a year


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