# Congratulations to me & toilet flange height



## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

Today I was helping a friend of a friend with a rocking and rolling toilet.

I had a couple of wax rings and a set of bolts ready to go. The plan was to remove the toilet and see what was going on.

Congratulations are due to me because I convinced this woman to put the two wax rings under her shirt in order to warm them up as I was removing the toilet and cleaning up the flange.

The flange was on top of the tile and about 1/2" proud. With a dry fit, there was plenty of rock and roll in all directions.

I have always installed my flanges so that they ended up being flush with the finished floor.

I came back and did some research and almost everywhere I looked, it is recommended to install the closet flange ON TOP of the finished floor. I figure I can always raise the flange with a thicker wax ring, an additional wax ring, or a pvc spacer, but to LOWER the flange will be an ordeal.

Do you guys really install your flanges on top of the tile or other finished floor? This was a sterling toilet. Maybe some brands work better over a high flange than others.

I tried to get her to let me take a picture of the wax rings in the boxes under her shirt, but she wouldn't let me. The one I ended up using was nice and toasty.:clap:


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

Definitely some toilets are more forgiving of a high flange than others. 

Mine are typically at finished floor height. Existing lower ones I just use a thicker seal. Existing higher ones I lower. 

I've ran into more problems due to the flange not being secured to the subfloor than height alone.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

cleveman said:


> Today I was helping a friend of a friend with a rocking and rolling toilet.
> 
> I had a couple of wax rings and a set of bolts ready to go. The plan was to remove the toilet and see what was going on.
> 
> ...


I immediately thought they were out of the boxes and were being warmed up by well you the the picture.....:whistling:laughing:


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

griz said:


> I immediately thought they were out of the boxes and were being warmed up by well you the the picture.....:whistling:laughing:


This is what they make those beeswax rings for, with just a bit of honey left on them.


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

This would make an excellent challenge. Top prize of a free drink with Griz to the first guy who can convince a woman to warm up two wax rings around her breasts. No photo necessary, just a detailed explanation of how he got the job done.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

I have zero to no chance of getting my old lady to do it, I would assume my chances would be even slimmer with a stranger.


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## steex (Feb 19, 2013)

I always liked the flange flush with the finished floor, but this summer I became convinced that it should rest right on top of the floor. Honestly I think it would be best if the flange was a little thinner, so it was only maybe 3/16" proud of the floor, but with the PVC flanges I've been using it's more like 5/16".


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## I Mester (Aug 21, 2011)

per every manufacturer's specs I've seen the closet flange should sit on top of the finished floor. and all you need is a thin wax ring. unfortunately, its not always the case. and we end up using the jumbo rings. don't want too thick of a wax because when it collapses it will restrict the size of the opening.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

I always install closet flanges on the final trim out on a job, so yes they sit on top of the finished floor.

And I don't use wax rings, ever.


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

I'll install the freaking ring so that it sticks up 4" if you can find me a toilet that will sit on it.

With the aforementioned flange, I could have spun the toilet around in circles without it touching the floor anywhere. Adding a wax ring just raises it up further.

This was on a basement floor on a slab of course.

Is there a tool available that will cut off the flange from the inside of the pipe/flange? Then I'd have to get a new flange which would fit into the 3" pipe, plus remove the tile to let the new flange down a bit.

Or, find a toilet which is friendly with a flange sticking up 1/2".


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## kambrooks (Apr 24, 2012)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I always install closet flanges on the final trim out on a job, so yes they sit on top of the finished floor. And I don't use wax rings, ever.


What instead?


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

donerightwyo said:


> I have zero to no chance of getting my old lady to do it, I would assume my chances would be even slimmer with a stranger.


You just have to look at them with a straight face and tell them that the wax needs to be warmed up so it will flow properly, then tell them the boxes are clean and they just need to slip them under their shirt. Now turn away quickly and start working on something. It's as simple as that.:clap:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

cleveman said:


> You just have to look at them with a straight face and tell them that the wax needs to be warmed up so it will flow properly, then tell them the boxes are clean and they just need to slip them under their shirt. Now turn away quickly and start working on something. It's as simple as that.:clap:



Yea, but get them OUT of the box and wrapped around something....

Then check to make sure they are warm enough...:whistling:laughing:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

kambrooks said:


> What instead?


Fernco fts's work well. I sometime have to use a little silicone grease to let them slide in better but they are vastly better than a wax ring. No messing with flange spacers or heavy duty wax rings. 

But to the OP question i always set mine out to be flush with the finished floor.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

cleveman said:


> I'll install the freaking ring so that it sticks up 4" if you can find me a toilet that will sit on it.
> 
> With the aforementioned flange, I could have spun the toilet around in circles without it touching the floor anywhere. Adding a wax ring just raises it up further.
> 
> ...



3" inside glued flange---should have guessed----never use one of those.they cause this problem.

There is a cutter that fits into a drill and allows you to cut out the fitting without damaging the pipe---the name escapes me--but you will find them in every plumbing supply house---

Ram bit--I believe that is the name---


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

cleveman said:


> I'll install the freaking ring so that it sticks up 4" if you can find me a toilet that will sit on it.
> 
> With the aforementioned flange, I could have spun the toilet around in circles without it touching the floor anywhere. Adding a wax ring just raises it up further.
> 
> ...


Socket savers;

http://www.amazon.com/Jones-Stephens-J44-150-Socket-Saver/dp/B000HE9YS8

On finished floor.

Tom


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Them cutters only remove the pipe from inside the fitting. You may need the type like the pipe parana that remove the fitting from the pipe.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> Socket savers;
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Jones-Stephens-J44-150-Socket-Saver/dp/B000HE9YS8
> 
> ...


thats not the cutter Tom, that one is used after the fitting or pipe is removed. So the fitting can be reused. The inside cutter is just a shaft with a small cutting wheel on it no guide. I am sure you have seen them.

My plumber will not use a 3" flange unless it is absolutely the last resort. One of the few times he did, customer wanted to use Toto vespin toilet with insert into flange. No dice, at the time they were 4" only not sure now.

In the past I have made 3/4" Corian plates for my plumber on certain jobs where the toilet sat on the plate. It worked. That was when I had a supply of 3/4" material


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

rrk said:


> thats not the cutter Tom, that one is used after the fitting or pipe is removed. So the fitting can be reused. The inside cutter is just a shaft with a small cutting wheel on it no guide. I am sure you have seen them.
> 
> My plumber will not use a 3" flange unless it is absolutely the last resort. One of the few times he did, customer wanted to use Toto vespin toilet with insert into flange. No dice, at the time they were 4" only not sure now.
> 
> In the past I have made 3/4" Corian plates for my plumber on certain jobs where the toilet sat on the plate. It worked. That was when I had a supply of 3/4" material


You're referring to these;

http://www.insidecutter.com

I have used the socket saver to remove fitting. In the case of this 3 or 4" flange, I would use the proper size and just keep cutting until the cutter is beyond the depth of the hub. Last week I had to do it on a sewer pipe that ran through an 8" block wall. Machined down the entire length, lost of PVC shavings by the time I was done.

Tom


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

He is referring to this actually, it removes the fitting from the pipe, saving the pipe.









The insider tool just cuts the pipe, from the inside.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

No he uses the 2nd one Tom referred to, usually cuts flange out, cuts little lower, glues on coupling, short pipe, flange. He is too cheap to get a fancy cutter.

Cannot tell you how many times that cutter drops down pipe and we have to fish it out with a magnet. Obviously it cant go far.


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

a sharp chisel and a sawzall work well if you are a patient type


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

A heat gun and a screwdriver to pry it out works sometimes too


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

tyb525 said:


> A heat gun and a screwdriver to pry it out works sometimes too


i will have to try that next time...


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## tyb525 (Feb 26, 2013)

I have used it to re-use a fitting, heat up the pipe left inside the fitting, then use the screwdriver to seperate the two and peel the old pipe out. Then sand down the roughness. Works in a pinch.


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

I don't know if this will attach or not, but I will comment later about how to adjust for this later if it attaches.


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## cleveman (Dec 28, 2007)

That flange is on the outside of a 3" pipe.

The flange is a full 1/2 proud of the finished floor. I think there are plenty of flanges in the 1/4" range.

Plus, the screws may stick up above the flange.

What to do?

I figure one could:

1. Get a toilet with more clarence for the flange.

2. Burn or cut off the flange and install a lower flange

2a. Leave the finished floor.
2b. Remove the tile and set it down a bit.

If one removes the flange, then the 3" pipe should be cut off where it is not scorched and a coupling put on the outside to bring it up, then a new flange on the outside.

Hopefully a guy can get in there with a coupling, since the old flange went on the outside.

Again, this is in a basement in concrete. What would you do?


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I would get a toilet that fits.

Tom


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

kambrooks said:


> What instead?


Probably real old school and uses plumbers putty.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

One of my customers bought a ''foam'' wax ring........

Never saw one of those before. I did not use it.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Big Shoe said:


> One of my customers bought a ''foam'' wax ring........
> 
> Never saw one of those before. I did not use it.


This one?


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

Yes that looks like the one. 

Actually I wanted to put a post on here about it. Anytime something new comes out I'm always hesitant until I've heard someone else has used it. How long have they been around?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Big Shoe said:


> Yes that looks like the one.
> 
> Actually I wanted to put a post on here about it. Anytime something new comes out I'm always hesitant until I've heard someone else has used it. How long have they been around?


Couple of years from what I have seen. The guys in Ask This Old House were recommending it. Not sure if they carried much weight, but the plumber in the show liked it.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Are they foam or neoprene? If they are neoprene there's no reason they wouldn't work well.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

cleveman said:


> View attachment 102464
> 
> 
> I don't know if this will attach or not, but I will comment later about how to adjust for this later if it attaches.


Every closet flange I install is like that, except that it is usually cast iron, not PVC, never had a problem setting a water closet on one.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Date on the pic is 2005. You gotta work on your turn around times!


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

I finally figured out that the green thing is called Saniseal. Good youtube clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYiYAi1iHOI


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Are they foam or neoprene? If they are neoprene there's no reason they wouldn't work well.


Polyurethane foam.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

For those of us who know how to set toilets and use the right wax ring, what's the advantage? Looks like you're just adding $5 in materials for every toilet. Great for a DIY, though.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

MarkJames said:


> For those of us who know how to set toilets and use the right wax ring, what's the advantage? Looks like you're just adding $5 in materials for every toilet. Great for a DIY, though.


I am not promoting it, but unless you have tried it or even really looked into it, knocking it seems a little foolish.

For one you can pull the toilet and reset without replacing. I am definitely interested in seeing what a pro that has used it thinks.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I've used and re-used neoprene many times over the years--beats the dickens out of wax. Not sure if I trust this thing long term, but I could be convinced.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am not promoting it, but unless you have tried it or even really looked into it, knocking it seems a little foolish.
> 
> *For one you can pull the toilet and reset without replacing. I am definitely interested in seeing what a pro that has used it thinks*.


Me too.... I've seen them and haven't tried it yet. 

It obviously is great for replacing, like pulling crappers to snake, rather than f'n with junky wax....

but, unless it is very very squishy (technical term), and you are exactly on with your flange height, seems it might stand the toilet tall.... making you shim it and adding to issues of instability.....:blink:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> Me too.... I've seen them and haven't tried it yet.
> 
> It obviously is great for replacing, like pulling crappers to snake, rather than f'n with junky wax....
> 
> but, unless it is very very squishy (technical term), and you are exactly on with your flange height, seems it might stand the toilet tall.... making you shim it and adding to issues of instability.....:blink:


Watch the video. Shows pretty well how good it works.


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> Watch the video. Shows pretty well how good it works.


BC.... What/where's the video? TIA


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> BC.... What/where's the video? TIA


response #37


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

MTN REMODEL LLC said:


> but, unless it is very very squishy (technical term), and you are exactly on with your flange height, seems it might stand the toilet tall.... making you shim it and adding to issues of instability.....:blink:


Easy fix just tighten it down until the bowl breaks then back it off a turn :laughing:


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

cleveman said:


> This would make an excellent challenge. Top prize of a free drink with Griz to the first guy who can convince a woman to warm up two wax rings around her breasts. No photo necessary, just a detailed explanation of how he got the job done.



Sticky Boobies.




KillerToiletSpider said:


> I always install closet flanges on the final trim out on a job, so yes they sit on top of the finished floor.
> 
> And I don't use wax rings, ever.


Are you using the wax-free from Fernco? I almost installed one the other day, but I went with tried and true. 



cleveman said:


> Is there a tool available that will cut off the flange from the inside of the pipe/flange? Then I'd have to get a new flange which would fit into the 3" pipe, plus remove the tile to let the new flange down a bit.
> 
> Or, find a toilet which is friendly with a flange sticking up 1/2".


It's called an "inside pipe cutter". You may have to chip a little concrete to get a new coupling on, depending on how much foam the plumber wrapped before the pour.


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