# I got burned. Need advice.



## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

Thanks Warren. This has been a great experience for me. I have definitely learned from this one. I just added this product to my line, and I'm a little green still regarding this product. I really think this woman needed an out, and didn't have the money to pay the balance. She never once said anything about getting her deposit back. Her words exactly were, "Just forget me as a customer", and she refused to talk to me after that.

It's very hard to rationalize with irrational people.


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## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)

tc70518 said:


> It's very hard to rationalize with irrational people.


More like impossible.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

The best you can hope for is that she really is crazy...and totally forgets about her deposit...but don't bank on it.


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

Seems to me like she was told a few different deadlines-

4-6 weeks
then 3 weeks
then next week....

And she called you at the end of each of those deadlines, when she didn't see or hear from you.

I do not see her being in the wrong here.

Whewn you knew you weren't going to make the deadline, YOU should have called her to explean..."Hello Mrs xxxxx, I just heard from the powder coater, they had a minor hang up, etc, etc, etc... "

Had you been the one calling her before she had to call you, I'm guessing things would have been quite a bit different.

COMMUNICATION.


Never underestimate the power of it.


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

My communication the first 6 weeks was bad. I admit it. I admitted it to her. The last few weeks, I communicated with her as much as I could. If I say I'll try to be there late next week, and she calls me Tuesday at 7 a.m. yelling at me, what can I do? If I say I'll try to start late Sunday and she calls me Sunday morning at 10 a.m. yelling at me, what can I do? I'm not used to coddling my customers like that. I'm way to busy to call a customer every other day and tell them exactly what steps I took over the last 48 hours of the process. I can't run my business efficiently doing that to every customer. No one could. If I gave that treatment to some other customers, they would say leave me the hell alone and call me when you're ready to install. Most of my customers are like that. I've never had to deal with a person like this, but now I know what to do next time.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

tc70518 said:


> My communication the first 6 weeks was bad. I admit it. I admitted it to her. The last few weeks, I communicated with her as much as I could. If I say I'll try to be there late next week, and she calls me Tuesday at 7 a.m. yelling at me, what can I do? * If I say I'll try to start late Sunday and she calls me Sunday morning at 10 a.m. yelling at me, *what can I do? I'm not used to coddling my customers like that. I'm way to busy to call a customer every other day and tell them exactly what steps I took over the last 48 hours of the process. I can't run my business efficiently doing that to every customer. No one could. If I gave that treatment to some other customers, they would say leave me the hell alone and call me when you're ready to install. Most of my customers are like that. I've never had to deal with a person like this, but now I know what to do next time.


Under the circumstances, a call on Saturday with an update probably would have gone a looong way


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

J F said:


> Under the circumstances, a call on Saturday with an update probably would have gone a looong way


I called her Friday at 4 pm when I picked up the pallet of shutters and left her a voicemail. She didn't call me back until Saturday morning. So I did talk to her on Saturday. What else could I have done? I still think she just needed an out.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

So what did you tell her on Saturday? (I must have missed it).


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

I told her I would be there Sunday afternoon. She said, "do you normally work on weekends?". I said I work when I need to work, and I have no problem working on weekends. She said okay great, see you tomorrow. So you can understand my confusion by her call Sunday morning, then the cancellation a couple hours later a few hours before I was going to start the install.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

does she have alzheimers?


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## B_Boop (Jun 16, 2009)

Continuing this job with the lady would likely have her stiff you after you're done.
I would, however send her a certified letter, nicely stating the sequence of events, and your attempt to honor the severely underbid job. I have always found that offering the client options, leaves them a bit more satisfied in finding resolution. However, do not make the mistake of allowing her to just move forward without an addition to the contract, stating a new completion date, no penalty assessed. and that the balance remains the same, signed by both of you. You might also ask for final payment by certified check.
Also, I would tell her that you have already invested substantial funds into the project. If this job was underbid, she will not be able to reproduce the pricing elsewhere. But, if u truly want to cancel the deal and install on your parents home,...then send the letter, certified, with the full deposit refund, and the details as above.....and that you are taking her at HER WORD.....that she wants to cancel the contract. And, you are allowing her to do so.
Hope this helps.....PS- keep copies of all communications. If she really saw an attorney....she may be gearing up to haul u into court.:sad:
Your choice:whistling


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

_Don't_ whine about under bidding to your client :no:


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## naptown CR (Feb 20, 2009)

genecarp said:


> Sounds like the relationship is not salvageable. You are willing to do the install, she is declining, you keep the deposit. You already know what you did wrong, no reason to remind you. The next move is hers, i would store the shutters for several months just in case she comes at you. After the smoke clears, give your parents a nice anniversary gift. G.
> 
> PS, this advice assumes you are licensed and insured, if you are not, the BBB can come down on you hard, you will lose if she files a complaint.


Gene Best avatar yet keep this one


I would send her an invoice for the remainder of the contract less your labor COST to install. You have a lot of time and money tied up in this and most of it is off site work. If she ponies up give her the shutters and go away. Cash only no checks. If you don't get a response take her to court. Start and completion dates are approximate and no court is going to hang you for being a few weeks late.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

I would make sure that future contracts include full payment up front of any special order materials that cannot be returned. Other down payments are usually set forth by the state.

In one of your posts you said that from now on your contracts will state that "no refund on deposits after work as begun" or something to those effects. I don't know exactly how legal that is - consult your lawyer.

As far as how to handle the whole situation - sounds like you dropped the ball and you now realize it. Don't wait for her to ask for her deposit back, refund it with a certified letter summarizing the events. Apologize profusely. If she wants to have you install the product, draw up a new contract, and try and re-coup some of your costs. 

Refunding the deposit and not hearing from her is probably the best thing. No news is good news. Meaning she isn't taking you to court. You can't please them all. I think you probably realize that some customers require more "coddling" than others - factor that into future estimates/bids. Work on better communication.

Even with the best plan in place, sometimes customers just turn out to be a PITA. As it has been said here before many times, underpromise and overdeliver.


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

naptown CR said:


> Start and completion dates are approximate and no court is going to hang you for being a few weeks late.


This is exactly how I feel. Some of the responses I've gotten from people in this thread make me think that some of you think I deserve to lose over 4 thousand dollars out of my bank account and weeks of unpaid labor, simply because she was told 4-6 weeks and my vendor and powder coater caused me to run a month late. She gets her money back, and I'm stuck with 32 custom sized shutters panels that are powder coated, and other than a few of them that will fit my parent's house, are a complete waste. I refuse to let her run over me like that. If she wanted 6 weeks as a hard deadline, she should have demanded it be put in the contract. Fact is, she asked how long and was told about 4-6 weeks. There was no promise, no guarantee.

Cooke-the only way I feel I dropped the ball is lack of communication the first month. Everything else was out of my control. I had delays that I couldn't control, and I explained all of that to her. My vendor dropped the ball more than one occasion during this job. I was sent wrong materials, damaged materials, and stuff was on back order. My vendor alone caused me well over a month in delays. I was to the point where I was looking for a new vendor, but I couldn't find another company who offered storm shutter components close to this area. Then my powder coater promised (and this was an actual promise) me that he would turn my job over in 3 days. I told him before I gave him the shutters that I was under the gun and would only give them to him if he could turn it over quickly. He went on vacation a couple days later, and when I called the day my job was promised, he was nowhere to be found, and they had no idea about the promise he made, and I didn't get the shutters til 4 days later. That ended up being the straw that broke the camel's back. He did email me from vacation and apologized profusely and wants to make it up to me somehow. 

As far as her having alzheimers, I don't think so. She remembers way to much, but she does have a bad case of selective memory. I am 100% convinced that she has a bipolar disorder. It has felt like I've been dealing with 2 different people, alternating conversations with me.


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

J F said:


> _Don't_ whine about under bidding to your client :no:


I certainly didn't do this. But she actually asked me, at one point, how much money I had made on her $2500 deposit, while I was already over budget. I simply told her I was already over budget. She even offered to give me more money when the job was completed, so I was properly compensated. I refused and told her that I don't work like that, and once a price is set in a contract, that's the one I stick to. 

I was very good to this woman given the circumstances, and she bailed on me last minute. There's really no other way I can put it.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I agree with naptown, get paid for the product, don't install, take her to small claims, or consult your attorney as how best to proceed.

Or you could send a couple of "bikers" over with the shutters - they will collect for you. Usual price is 25% of amount owed. :laughing:


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

knucklehead said:


> waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


Name fits


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## Darwin (Apr 7, 2009)

tc70518 said:


> The customer paid a 50% deposit for the shutters. She signed and dated the proposal. *She was told 4-6 weeks by the person who sold the job, but that time frame was a.)not approved by me and b.) nowhere on the proposal.*
> 
> *6 weeks-customer calls me and says "where's my shutters?" I told her that parts of the shutters were on backorder, and as soon as I got the necessary parts, I would complete them, send them to the powder coater and install them. She asked for a date, and I told her 3 weeks, which would put the install at 9 weeks.* I apologized for the misinformation on the 4-6 weeks promise and informed her that it was supposed to be 6-8 weeks. She said, okay, and seemed fine with that explanation.
> 
> ...


:laughing:
Dude, it's so many things wrong about the way you do business. You suck at business. Get out now. Where do you start???

First, you shouldn't be sending out employee to sell jobs without:
a) fee structures to you won't lose your shirt
b) competent employee who will be realistic with the customer.

Of course she's pissed because you got half her money, you haven't done the install (10 weeks???), and again, you got half her money:shutup:. So what if your friggin' A/C went out. Blow - it - out - yer - butt :no:??

Contract not co-signed? Whatever aineehow, Yo fault. How long you been in business? Since last Thursday?

You need to get what's coming to you. It's called the school of hard knocks. Time to get a few knuckles to the ole monetary dome; because, all I see is you pretendin' to be in bizness.

You haven't heard from her anymore but I bet you hear from small claims...:whistling


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Darwin said:


> :laughing:
> Dude, it's so many things wrong about the way you do business. You suck at business. Get out now. Where do you start???
> 
> First, you shouldn't be sending out employee to sell jobs without:
> ...


 
TELL HIM WHAT YOU REALLY THINK:laughing::laughing:


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

tc70518 said:


> Name fits


Thank you. what does your name mean? 
What do you want me to say? 
Poor Baby?


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## Earthworkssdu (Jan 5, 2009)

Sorry for the bad job. But I would consider the poor word of mouth that travels like wildfire. I would suggest trying to find a way to install the product at a reduced rate and apologize for the slow turn a round. In the end the customer was promised a delivery schedule by some one you chose to represent you, and in accepting her deposit you were agreeing to that schedule. Best of luck, I hope all ends well.


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

Darwin said:


> :laughing:
> Dude, it's so many things wrong about the way you do business. You suck at business. Get out now. Where do you start???
> 
> First, you shouldn't be sending out employee to sell jobs without:
> ...


Whatever you say buddy. Idiot.


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

knucklehead said:


> Thank you. what does your name mean?
> What do you want me to say?
> Poor Baby?


Say what you want knucklehead. I was asking for legal advice from experienced contractors who were willing to give good advice.. I've only been self employed for a year. Yes, I'm still learning the ins and outs. If you had no good advice to give, then you could have just kept quiet.


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## GregS (Oct 1, 2006)

Yes, forget her as a customer and expect her to be the plantiff in the lawsuit coming your way asking for the deposit back plus something for her wasted time. 

Based on the details in your OP she was the one calling you asking for the status. Not good. Honestly your delays are not her problem. Sh!t happens, but make sure you have a contingency plan to nip these things in the bud.

Keep your clients up to date, even if nothing has changed, tell them nothing has changed just so they know you haven't forgotten about them. Email is great for that.


And I don't get this part:



> The person who sold the job was someone who works for a company that I do sub work for.


So another company sold the job and you are sub'ing for them to do it? So why is their client calling you? Or was this a commissioned sales person? They sell it, you pay them and take over from there?


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

BuildingHomes said:


> Yes, forget her as a customer and expect her to be the plantiff in the lawsuit coming your way asking for the deposit back plus something for her wasted time.
> 
> Based on the details in your OP she was the one calling you asking for the status. Not good. Honestly your delays are not her problem. Sh!t happens, but make sure you have a contingency plan to nip these things in the bud.
> 
> ...


It was the company I used to work for. I started my own company and they sub a lot of work out to me, mainly aluminum welding. It's work that has nothing to do with shutters. They were there bidding on another job and she mentioned shutters, so I get the demensions, faxed over a bid, since it was 100 miles away, and they closed the deal, got a commission and I took over. I'm well aware that I mishandled the situation, mispriced the shutters, yada yada. Like I said, I've only been self employed for about a year, and I'm still learning. I learned from it, and it won't happen again. But I did the best I could in keeping her informed the last few weeks. That's all I can say. I hate to keep having to explain this over and over because people obviously think I'm wining about it. I'm not. So I'm through talking about the details of what happened. Thanks to those that offered solid advice. To the others, whatever. Talking down to a green entrepreneur doesn't make you a better man.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

This isn't a forum for Legal Advice.

Legal "Opinions" possibly, but not real actual in your area statutes like advice.

Remember, the "Advice" is worth what you are paing for it.

If you truly want Legal Advice, then pay your attorney for more than the free consultation he probably provided for you.

Better than that, suck it up, and eat crow and do whatever the heck it takes to try to make things as right as possible with the customer.

I read this thread 3 times now and no matter how you slice and dice it, YOU did not communicate with the client and keep her informed.

Don't do an e-mail now and no phone calls, except for the one that you make to tell her you would like to sit down with her and make things as right as possible. At this point, Fvck any thoughts you have about how much of a loss or a minor profit the job should or could make.

Thats immaterial.

Make yourself out to be a Good Ethical Contractor who stands by his word, regardless of cost and circumstances in this occasion, since YOU dropped the ball big enough to get her so pizzed off and irate at you.

At this point, if I were in your shoes, I would even state quite clearly, how grateful you would be to be able to finish off her custom fabricated shutters and that if she is not satisfied once you are done, it won't cost her a dime.

Going to any version of the legal system and thinking that you would come out ahead is just totally ludicrous, so you would be better off finishing up and MAKING SURE she was satisfied with every single minutes worth of work.

Get on that phone first thing and arrange to meet with her, even if it winds up being that you will just provide her the shutters that she ordered and that, even though you under-priced them, that she did pay for.

Good luck on seeing this from a clear an unbiased vantage point and hopefully, you can come to some agreeable understanding.

Ed


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

In my years in business I've delt with some of the worst (whom I wish I never did) and some of the best. But the bottom line is I dealt with them, you on the other hand are not "dealing" with the person. I realize that there are lots of high maintenance people out there; and they require special treatment and you have to work that into your billing or eat it.

Diplomacy is the best skill you can learn if your doing business on your own, never bury your head in the sand and ignore things, even if you think you're right or the other person is unreasonable. Being unreasonable is human nature, don't like it don't go into a business where you have to deal with people its as simple as that.

If I were in your shoes I would quite simply drive out to the persons house and talk it over with them. NEVER let a conversation get heated on your behalf; I've had diabetics and seriously mentally sick people go insane and yell at me, threatning me to a point where I wanted to kill them and hide the bodies. But I always kept my cool and worked things out; 99% of the time I get appologies or gifts for maintaining my composure.

You should have had a serious discussion before if you knew it would take longer. You should have kept her better informed with the delays...but you didn't so get over it!

Now your in slight sticky situation, but nothing that cannot be patched up; your not ready to go up to bat in court or tarnish your green reputation.

Its shocking how pure honesty and some kind appolegetic words can fix things right up; explaine your mistakes, admit to them, appologise for them, and fix them. Do not ignore the problem.

I've always lived by my own words "Me Fcukie, Me Fixie!"


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Looks like we were thinking along the exact same lines at the same time.

Ed


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

Well, I didn't ignore it. I left several messages asking to discuss it with her, and she only called back to say stop calling and do not come to my house. That was just yesterday. I'm trying to decide where to go from here.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Go hat in hand and somberly knock on her door and request politely to speak with her and resolve the complaint.

Bring the shutters with you as a good will gesture and tell her they are ready and you would like to take the bad taste of her experience so far, out of her mouth, if she will give you the chance and say Please.

Whats the worst that can happen?

She still will not let you finish the contracted work?

So what then, you are in no worse position than you are now, but the court system is not Fair, it is Just. Justice does not necessarily equate to fairness and I see you on the losing end of any court battle.

Ed


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

While I still maintain that, legally, I did nothing wrong, I'll take that into consideration. Like someone above stated, I don't think a court will hang me for being a few weeks late. I talked to her about 6 or 7 times in the last month, and I initiated half of those calls. She just out of the blue stopped the job after telling me the day before, "See you tomorrow." Something is not adding up.


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

Man, walk away. 
Now you know your shutters should be priced at least 1800 bucks more on the deposit. 

Quit trying to make it other peoples fault, you took to long, apologies only do so much. I have lost jobs by being a couple days late. 

Dont rush.

It doesnt make someone bigger to tell you how it is. We could all give you a hug and let you go on your merry way and you wouldnt have learned anything. Last year I got ripped off for a total of 11k at 21 yrs old. **** Happens. I changed the way I do things alot. 

10 weeks is a long freaking time. If I was a week late I would be embarrased as crap. 

Why dont you try to sell them at a discounted price on craigslist or ebay? Unless your parents were going to pay for them....... Then you could maybe recoupe some of your losses.

Just learn from it and good luck in later dealings.


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

BattleRidge said:


> Man, walk away.
> Now you know your shutters should be priced at least 1800 bucks more on the deposit.
> 
> Quit trying to make it other peoples fault, you took to long, apologies only do so much. I have lost jobs by being a couple days late.
> ...


Yea. Thanks for the advice. I stressed for a month, losing sleep, over not being able to have this job done. Its a helpless feeling when Murphy's Law shows up over and over again for the same job. But I plan on correcting all of these mistakes moving forward.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Go hat in hand and somberly knock on her door and request politely to speak with her and resolve the complaint.


Ed, looks like were on the same page here. :thumbsup:



> Well, I didn't ignore it. I left several messages asking to discuss it with her, and she only called back to say stop calling and do not come to my house. That was just yesterday. I'm trying to decide where to go from here.


Some people need more then a phone call, I realize that you feel your not in the wrong, and between you me and the wall maby your on the straight and narrow; but in her eyes you arn't.



> Man, walk away.


Yeah! Great Advice! Got a snag? Just put your head in the sand and ignore it! Don't bother Expressing yourself in a diplomatic fashion and sorting things out just change your phone number and head for Mexico with you half paid for shutters! Yeee-haw



> Yea. Thanks for the advice. I stressed for a month, losing sleep, over not being able to have this job done. Its a helpless feeling when Murphy's Law shows up over and over again for the same job. But I plan on correcting all of these mistakes moving forward.


Stressing just makes it worse and that causes outbursts and really mucks things up. Just be honest....For instance recently I had a multi-boardroom system that was needed for a certain date. The company I worked for said it would be done in days where it actually takes weeks. I sat down with the owner and explained to him that there was no possible way it will be 100% for when he neede it, so we worked out the vital components that were required for the date and I had them working 100%.

During the course of the last-minuit project I was up as late as 2 or 3 am working on it, because I had to get it done. When other people asked me again and again "Hey Kev, Arn't ya' worried you won't be done on time?"....I replied "Nope, not worried at all....cause it ain't gonna be done on time, but I'l get working on time"

I'l bet ya' a coffee if you take the advice of Ed and myself, drop by as ED so gracefuly said "hat in hand" and loose the chip on your shoulder things will be worked out A1. Even if the woman is terminally unhappy with life, I think she a) still wants shutters and b) doesnt want to throw her money away. Don't giver her discounts or freebies, just be honest.

Let me know how that works out before you start thinking about lawyers; but manning up and smoothing things over can be a very hard pill to swallow!


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

TC, you asked for advice and you got some; much of which you don't like to hear. You have made two mistakes with this entire episode. 

1.) You don't run your business in a professional manner. A professional business owner would have recognized the downward slide of the situation and taken immediate steps to mitigate it. You made phone calls, you didn't solve anything. Maybe you don't have enough experience to have kept this from happening but you do now. You need to have processes in place so that even unexpected events are dealt with promptly, effectively, and professionally.

2.) You let your emotions guide your actions after everything went south. This is business and you need to keep your emotions out of it when dealing with this clients. Your posts are telling us that you are pissed about this issue and that you can't let it go. When that happens, you will never be able to resolve the situation in a professional manner.

Two emotions are allowed in business: a smile when you deposit the checks and the satisfaction of a job professionally done.

Now, you stated: 

I was asking for legal advice from experienced contractors who were willing to give good advice.. I've only been self employed for a year. Yes, I'm still learning the ins and outs. If you had no good advice to give, then you could have just kept quiet.

How do you know what good advice is?


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

I was only asking to see what more experienced contractors have done in this situation. I said advice, but I should have said opinions. I am going to consult a lawyer before moving forward. 

There was only one conversation where I let my emotions get the best of me, and I recognized my mistake, I apologized, sent her a very nice thank you card, thanking her for her business, apologizing for the way our conversation went, apologizing for the delays, and we had a very nice long chat after she got the card. I thought things were smoothed over, and after that, I communicated with her very well about every step. She was sending me very mixed signals on whether or not she was okay with the delays after that. I was completely caught off guard when she canceled. I guess in the end, I paid for my lack of communication the first 6 weeks, and all the effort after that was too little too late.

As far as me not being able to solve things in a professional manner. I started this thread to get feedback on how I can do just that. I could have just ignored her and swept it under the rug, but I'm trying to resolve this in a proper manner. Pissed? Yea, I was a little pissed the last couple of days. It was hard not to be. But I'm over it. 

I appreciate all of the advice. Even if it was something I didn't want to hear, I know I needed to hear it. I humbly accept all the replies in this thread.


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

For what its worth, the TS is guilty of a couple of things, poor communication, and a delay in delivering. Now, if all of you seasoned pros maintain that in your lenthy career you have not been guilty of this on occasion, i maintain that you have a case of amnesia. Also remember, things can and do go wrong on jobs, things get delayed, things come in damaged, the client needs to understand this, and not flip out if things dont go exactly as planned. There is a possibilty that TC has an unreasonable client, This possibilty does not excuse TC for the mistakes he made, but this must be considered when evaluating the situation and offering advice. G


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

I was only asking to see what more experienced contractors have done in this situation.

I would'nt be in this situation. I allways keep my customers updated on job progress through communication. When people don't hear from someone they allways think the worst.

I have had jobs that did'nt go as planned but I allways keep the customer informed on what exactly is going on. And they allways appreciate my effort to keep them informed.

COMMUNICATION IS A VIRTUE !!!!


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

I already said I was going to give her options. No need to beat this dead horse anymore.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

There you go.

Ed


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## jumbo (Apr 26, 2009)

TC, go spend a hundred bucks on an attorney. Lay this all out for him, he'll tell you what you should or should not do. Dont have any more correspondance of any kind with her until you get some REAL advice. It could possibly dig you a bigger hole. I once got into it with a job supe on a project that was sub'd out to me. I walked off the job.This guy was such a jerk he was like a cartoon character. I thought I could possibly get sued for not completing my signed contract. Called an attorney on my way home, he said dont worry about it, in fact they were still responsible to pay me for the last three days of work I had performed. By the time I had made it home,MOTHER*****ER, if there wasn't a message from their office asking me if I'd come back and if not to send them a bill for the work I had performed. Good luck in the future.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

TC, would you like to know what is farked up about this whole thing?

A. You're not the person she spoke to about the shutters in the first place.
B. Four weeks go by and no a single word cane from the person she did buy the shutters from, nor from you.
C. Two more weeks pass and suddenly, her beautiful shutters won't be available for 3 more weeks because of unbelievable cluster farks from your suppliers. Not her suppliers, YOUR suppliers. 
D. Suddenly, you're in the picture telling her that you will "try" this and "try" that, and meanwhile, she just wants to know when her purty new shutters are gonna get put on her home.

Now, words were said that can't be unsaid, only apologized for. Opportunities to meet expectations were unrealized due to broken promises on your side of the fence by your powder coater.

Considering all of the above, put yourself in her situation. You don't keep regular hours and are coming out to disrupt her Sunday afternoon to start a job that should have been started a month ago. She's pretty sure she doesn't know who she is actually dealing with, let alone why. She also knows that you're liable to fly off the handle if she doesn't say what you want to hear.

Think like a woman for a minute. When a man and a woman have a relationship, and the man yells at her, or gets upset at her, she's likely to never want to trust that man again. Well, you got upset with her. 

So rather than trying to explain what she really would like to see happen here because she's afraid of upsetting you, she's "breaking up" with you. Its high school first love drama all over again.

"Stop calling me. Don't come by my house."

She's the victim here and no one is going to see it differently. You can cry foul all you want, but the reality is, you rear ended any hopes of salvaging this alone when you lost your cool. I don't care how much you apologized, the fact is, you can't unsay what you said, or how you said it. You intimidated her and she wants nothing more to do with you or those damned shutters at this point.

Where do you go from here? Not to an attorney. Try a female friend in the business. Explain the whole thing to them, and let them contact her. 

When they do, they should let her know that you're quite upset and embarrassed by this whole thing, and you want to do everything in your power to make it right. But, you need the green light from this woman. 

At this point, she's lost faith in you, the salesman that sold her this job, your suppliers and powder coaters, but especially, she sees you as incompetent. This has led her I'm sure, to believe these shutters, no matter how beautiful they look, have been touched by so many ignorant and incapable people, that there is no way they can ever be right.

If you decide to see her in person, take your wife with you, or some other trusted female friend. This will help to put her at ease. Better yet, don't contact her, let your wife or female friend talk to her and go see her and find out her expectations. 

As far as this woman not paying you. Nothing you have said would lead me to believe that. I think if you get the chance to install these shutters, everyone will feel better.

You forgot the most important part of the business. The client always comes first. If you don't find out her motivation and concerns and address them head on, you've lost on so many levels that it will eat at your confidence and turn you into a paranoid twit.

My three rules for this business are simple.
1. Say it.
2. Mean it.
3. Do it.

Sometimes meaning it means going to visit your powder coater in person and telling them you're not leaving until they straighten their mess out.

Sometimes it means going to visit your shutter supplier and telling them you're not leaving without everything you have paid for, in good and proper shape, at the price agreed upon. If this means you're gonna have a come to Jesus talk with the owner/manager, so be it. Be assertive, not aggressive. Assert your right to be the most important thing going on at that business that day. Demand your right to be the most pressing thing they have to get done before that 5 o'clock whistle blows.

You didn't, and this woman knows you didn't go to bat for her.

Would you stay in a relationship where you are being jerked around? I wouldn't, and I guess your client wouldn't either.

Ball is in your court TC. This is one of those times in business that we tell ourselves when we're new to it, that it will never happen to me, but I can tell you this isn't the last time this will happen. 

You need to OWN your role in this cludged up mess and own it outright. I'd start with letters of confession and culpability from my suppliers and service providers that dropped the ball, written to this woman personally. Don't forget to include your own. Ask her forgiveness and let her know that you're willing to go the extra mile to make this whole thing right and see she is happy with the final outcome. 

If she is unwilling, then ask her where you can deliver her shutters and when. If she doesn't want the shutters, ask her to sign something granting full ownership of the shutters to you and to vacate all her rights and claims on them. 

By doing this, you will instill in her mind first of all, that this is a business relationship and not a personal relationship. That what she saw was you struggling to get a handle on a situation that you didn't have much experience with, but one now that you have a good handle on.

Further, but doing this, you instill in her mind that despite her 13 year old reaction of "quit calling me, stay away from my house", she still has a responsiblity and a need to finish this thing properly, one way or another.

Good Luck...

Oh, and one more thing. Crow tastes best when eaten fresh, and with great humility, and the knowledge that this will be the last time you will have to eat this dish for these reason, ever.


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## PGD (May 20, 2009)

That has to be the longest post Ever outside the P&R!!




This dead horse is officially beaten!


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## terry714_us (Jan 8, 2008)

*Just be noce and take.....*

You should always try to be as nice as you can and just keep going over the same delays. Part were on backorder etc etc. Put it in writing. Put everything in writing. I always use email for correspondence. Everything is in writing. And when you deliver your final invoice have a lien waiver with you, unsigned of course until you get you cash. Just let her no that your policy is that the waiver will not be endorced until check is cleared. This way she is not getting away with what everyone in the world tries to get away with. Getting something nice for the nothing price. I do it, you do it. It's the American way. Now, GO GET EM! IT'S A DOG EAT DOG WORLD! YAHOO YEAH. oK now back to work


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## B_Boop (Jun 16, 2009)

No attorney. Just clear communication. "I understand, mam"...."I screwed up mam"...I'd like to make this right for you, mam".
Hat in hand, shutters in the truck, check in your pocket, contract in your briefcase waiting for amendment and, guys outside waiting to do the job right there at that moment.
Your getting a lot of grief from these fellows....as right u should. Never do this again, or maybe you should just put an attorney on retainer!:laughing:
This poor guy belongs in the hall of shame.....but on a positive note, he wasn't too proud to come here to ask for help.
Or maybe that was just inexperience. He just never saw all this recrimination coming:blink: 
Suck it up guy...and get on with the business of making this poor lady happy!
There are just too many fellows out there like you.....and I must say it is tempting, when errors happen to sweep it under the rug (decorator humor!)
Do the right thing...it will go a long way towards building your business.


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

Kinda took that out of context. If you have multiple contacts with a unhappy customer and they tell you not to come by their house and to just leave them alone. You are right. You should totally keep hastling them. Make them get a restraining order before you stop. Even then you would be a pussy to quit. GOOD PLAN. 





Inner10 said:


> Ed, looks like were on the same page here. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

I talked to the customer, and she explained to me that her diabetes has been acting up badly lately, and she claims that she never told me she didn't want the shutters. She says she just didn't want to talk to anyone at the time, until she was ready. The voicemail I have saved says otherwise, but I don't care about that at this point. I think she just needed time to cool off and not be bothered, and that is what I gave her. 

She told me it was totally up to me if I wanted to finish the job or just drop off the shutters, or whatever. I told her I really wanted to make things right and that I would be happy to install the job next week. She was happy with that. Her tone was a complete 180 from what it was last week. This is the most confusing person I've ever dealt with, but for now, all things seem to be headed in the right direction. I have all her voicemails and all my reciepts on standby just in case she doesn't pay up next week.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

tc70518 said:


> I talked to the customer, and she explained to me that her diabetes has been acting up badly lately, and she claims that she never told me she didn't want the shutters. She says she just didn't want to talk to anyone at the time, until she was ready. The voicemail I have saved says otherwise, but I don't care about that at this point. I think she just needed time to cool off and not be bothered, and that is what I gave her.
> 
> She told me it was totally up to me if I wanted to finish the job or just drop off the shutters, or whatever. I told her I really wanted to make things right and that I would be happy to install the job next week. She was happy with that. Her tone was a complete 180 from what it was last week. This is the most confusing person I've ever dealt with, but for now, all things seem to be headed in the right direction. I have all her voicemails and all my reciepts on standby just in case she doesn't pay up next week.


She got another couple of estimates all higher than yours. She knows which horse to ride now.


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## tc70518 (Jan 21, 2009)

rbsremodeling said:


> She got another couple of estimates all higher than yours. She knows which horse to ride now.


Most of the bigger shutter companies around here have a 2-3 month wait for a job that size, and they cost twice as much as my bid, so you're probably right.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

glad to hear it might work out...


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Good news. :thumbsup:

Now, to document the conversation, send her a Thank You note, but also verify the information discussed and re-write down the installation date as a confirmation and then Stick To It, no matter what.

Ed


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

I call people like that 'HRT's'. Hormone Replacement Therapy. Runs them ragged and fries their thought processes. :blink:


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

PGD said:


> That has to be the longest post Ever outside the P&R!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Naw, you should see how long it gets when I get excited.


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