# What's it called?



## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

Mike, I believe that the function of what you call it may hinge upon the temperature of the joining process.

Soldering has long been held to pertain to the act of joining using solder (meaning lead based alloys)

Brazing has pertained to higher temp joining more often with brass.

The definition I read suggests that it hinges on the temperature below 450 C might be soldering where above is brazing. 

When you get into the use of silver alloys of solder, you probably are aware that there are a wide number of alloys. Some of it is mostly solder w/ maybe 5% silver and some great stuff, more like used for refrigeration lines has a much higher silver content, a much higher melting point and flux that is similar to brazing flux. You are probably heating to around the dark red heat. This would be considered brazing, the low alloy stuff would be considered soldering. 

That's the way I understand it. I took a quick look at AWS, but nothing jumped out at me. I have the answer upstairs but too lazy to open a book, although I'll try to do it. Now I'm curious about the _definitive_ definition.

Willy
===================================
here we go;
http://www.welding-advisers.com/Brazing.html

Brazing Definition (AWS):
A group of joining processes that produces coalescence of materials by *heating them to the brazing temperature* in the presence of a filler metal having a liquidus above 450 C (840 F) and below the solidus of the base metal. The filler metal is distributed between the closely fitted faying surfaces of the joint by *capillary action*.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Are you serious? What hole are you talking out of tonight?


 
yup...


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Anyways 

So silver soldering or brazing is just to create a stronger joint?

I thought I had seen something somewhere about it being used to fix pin holes in copper pipes.

(Don't read the following Rex...)

The plumber said if it was an old lead soldered joint that it wouldn't matter because he would have to remove the old lead solder before he could braze it anyways, so to him, it was just a matter of if he had to do that, why not just heat the Ts, removing them and reinstalling new ones. Accused me of making things more difficult then they needed to be. (huh, imagine that :laughing

This all sounds about right then?


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Anyways
> 
> So silver soldering or brazing is just to create a stronger joint?
> 
> ...


so the guy is goin to un-sweat the old T's and install new ones? ok fine

so much for getting rid of the lead as the pipes are still gonna have solder on them... if hes just gonna put new T's in place of the old ones

he should cut the pipes back install couplings and then new T's if the old T's are infact soldered with lead solder...

your still wrong try again.....


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

Mike Finley said:


> Anyways
> 
> So silver soldering or brazing is just to create a stronger joint?
> 
> ...


Mike- brazing works sort of like welding. you can actually take to pieces of pipe butt them together and braze the gap with out the requirement for a coupling. i work on alot of high rise buildings where brazing is common place i have been told you can fix pinholes with brazing.

i googled and found this. i have no idea about the credibility of the author.
*Soldering Pipe with Leaking Valves*

Every plumber and many HVAC technicians have had the privilege and frustration of attempting to solder a copper water pipe that has a leaking valve which prevents the complete shut off of water flow. These plumbers and technicians know it is impossible to solder copper water pipes that have water in them or flowing through it. The water has to be drained from the pipe and the pipe must be dry and clean before soldering can begin. So if we have a valve that won't hold the water back or even piping systems with water shut off valves but have piping running up multiple levels with no isolation and the water keeps migrating back to where you want to solder, how do we keep the water from the location where we are soldering?
*The Bread Trick*

Plumbers and HVAC Technicians have used this age old proven method to stop the flow of water where they want to solder. Simply take some white bread, remove the crust, and roll the bread into a ball as appropiate to the size of the pipe. Stuff this ball into the pipe where the water is coming from and solder the joint. The bread holds the water back while the soldering is being done. After the soldering job is done and the water flow restored the ball of bread will disolve and complete water flow restored especially after the strainers are cleaned. Don't forget to clean the strainers if the system is equipped with strainers. This does not work when the pipe is under extreme pressure.
*Pipe Freezing Machines*








Another method for stopping the flow of water if a valve is broken is the pipe freezing machine. This method is far more expensive than the bread trick but it works flawlessly. Simply clamp some refrigeration heads to the pipe in question and turn on the machine. Spray some water on the refrigeration head and wait the recommended time required by the manufacturer of the pipe freeze machine. Then perform the soldering job and unhook the machine when finished. The ice inside the pipe will melt and the flow of water will be restored. The water pipe freezing machine is a good way to solder pipe where it is otherwise impossible to shut off water flow.
*Brazing and Soldering Copper HVACR Pipe*

Refrigeration soldering is always brazed as brazing makes a very solid leak free joint that withstands high and low temperatures. Brazing is done with oxyacetylene for refrigeration and the oxyacetylene tanks should have pressure regulators for regulating proper pressures when brazing with oxyacetylene. When soldering refrigeration pipe it is best to use soldering which has a composition of silver in it as the silver bounds with the copper and makes for an excellent leak free joint.
Brazing in HVAC is done with oxyacetylene torches which heat the pipe to temperatures approaching 6,000° F. It is important to note that all safety precautions should applied when brazing HVAC pipes including safety glasses and fire extinquishing equipment. Safety is always first when doing any job in HVAC and especially when dealing with oxyacetylene equipment and brazing.
Before brazing any pipe it is important to fit the pipe and clean it. This brazing set up will ensure the job is done correctly. Cut the pipe to the desired length with tubing cutters and ensure it has a good fit. After checking the fit and proper length clean the area where the pipe is to be soldered. After cleaning apply flux to the inner and outer joints. It is important to apply the heat evenly across the joint and heat the pipe before applying the solder. After the pipe has been heated apply the solder to the joint and allow it melt into the joint. Do not use the torch to heat the solder but use the heat on the pipe to melt the solder evenly. Do not use too much solder because the solder can migrate inside the pipe and cause a blockage of the pipe or little beads of solder may form inside the pipe and these little beads of solder will migrate through the refrigeration system and plug screens, metering devices, and possibly damage the compressor.







After the pipe is soldered and complete apply a wet rag or water to joint and thoroughly inspect the joint for even solder around and inside the joint. Use a mirror for difficult-to-see joints. After inspection is complete and you are satisfied that all solder joints are completely sealed perform a pressure test with nitrogen to check for leaks. Use soap bubbles when the pipe is pressurized and look for bubbles around the newly brazed joint. Also watch the pressure gage for a drop in pressure. A drop in pressure after applying the nitrogen surely means there is a leak in the system which needs to be found and repaired.
Oxidation is an enemy to refrigeration systems and piping. Oxidation causes many probelms with refrigeration systems and piping. To prevent oxidation when brazing refrigeration piping allow a slight amount of nitrogen into the system. It is important to only allow a slight amount of nitrogen into the system. Too much nitrogen pressure and the nitrogen pressure will not allow a good seal of the solder inside the pipe joint but push it out creating a tiny hole.


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

I would say to cut out and install new pipe and ts. I would be more confident in that joint, then trying to clean it up and resweat.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

I have soldered joints with water in the line using 50/50 solder, pay the expenses and I'll drive out and fix these for you.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Mike any chance of supplying some pics. There could be numerous ways to make this easy. It could be as simple as re heating the the fitting. Can you get a kopex type cutter in there to cut the T's out then use some slip couplings to put it all back together. Sounds like a heat mat would also be help.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanks BCC , this isn't really a problem I'm trying to get solved, the plumber will do whatever it takes.

I was just curious if there was another trick to fix an old leaking lead soldered copper fitting in place using some different technique beyond the normal way. The situation just brought up the subject today and I figured I'd see what the thoughts were here.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Thanks BCC , this isn't really a problem I'm trying to get solved, the plumber will do whatever it takes.
> 
> I was just curious if there was another trick to fix an old leaking lead soldered copper fitting in place using some different technique beyond the normal way. The situation just brought up the subject today and I figured I'd see what the thoughts were here.


I got ya. The only ways I have seen this done When not wanting to drain the system is like some have already said with freeze kits. 


This will work though. Who needs plumbers anyway :thumbsup:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Nice.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

didn't I see some kind of putty on tv that will repair any leak? You can probably pick the stuff up at Home Depot for a couple bucks.


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I have soldered joints with water in the line using 50/50 solder, pay the expenses and I'll drive out and fix these for you.


 
here in michigan 50/50 is only allowed on heating lines...

95/5 would need to be used for potable...


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

KillerToiletSpider said:


> I have soldered joints with water in the line using 50/50 solder, pay the expenses and I'll drive out and fix these for you.


Any time I have ever tried that over the years I always had pin holes from the steam blowing the solder out from between the fitting. Always ended up connecting shop vac and sucking the pipes dry.


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## Smatt (Feb 22, 2011)

rex said:


> here in michigan 50/50 is only allowed on heating lines...
> 
> 95/5 would need to be used for potable...


Here in Virginia also. Though I threw away all my 50/50 so no one would use it in a potable system.

Thanx for an interesting evening.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

rex said:


> here in michigan 50/50 is only allowed on heating lines...
> 
> 95/5 would need to be used for potable...


The same is true in Chicago...

Even though 50/50 was used for 50 years with no ill effects, and until ten years ago they were still pouring lead joints on water mains, the whole lead ban is crock of something I would prefer not to step in.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I have to say, this thread has me shaking my head...and laughing.

For as long as I have done service work I have never braised anything in a residential environment and I doubt I ever will so talking about brazing is like talking about bringing in a TIG welder; It doesn't make sense.:laughing:

As for the problem it's impossible to even guess without pictures but I do know that in all the years of service work and some seriously F'd up repair work on a weekly basis I'm always able to show up and get it done...then move on to the next job. Lots of speculating here for nothing.

If the homeowner doesn't want demo than that's the parameter a plumber has to work with simple as that. Everything has a solution and this is really a minor problem. 

Mike


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

https://www.buyleakender.com/?MID=555425


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## Builderdad (Mar 9, 2011)

*Relax boys*

Ok guys,long time lurker, first time poster. Didn't want his to be my first post, but here goes.

First off, I work for Mike and built the bath where this drip is.

This "Drip" presented itself today, over two weeks after new work was placed down line from where these "T's" are.

I personally opened a six inch square hole in a soffit to visually see where the water was coming from.

I solder hundreds of fittings and would have done these, however before tearing the crap out of some new work and the existing home, Mike and I discussed having a PLUMBER look at it. Mike thought if it could be repaired in place, a six inch inspection hole was better than several square feet of ceiling.
I'm assuming Mike was simply soliciting positive feedback from a professional community and not trying to "get around" having a Plumber come and do the repair. I also don't believe Mike or any other professional who is willing to ask for help/advise is less competent than anyone who may know how to complete this work.

Now I did not want to do this repair through a small access for one reason only, FIRE, danger. This is a sixty year old house, and if I'm putting flame against wood,I am going to make DAM sure I can inspect all around when I'm done and before covering up. I will not put myself, or an employer at that kind of liability.

As far as tearing out ceiling to repair correctly, as some have suggested, I have no doubt that after weighing options and getting input from other professionals, if this is what is required Mike will open the ceiling as necessary have the leak fixed and repair the ceiling.

We will then move on to our next project.

Hope those of you who came across as sarcastic and unhelpfull will take a second look at the question and situation and maybe use this forum in a positive manner to make us all better builders, tradesmen and professionals.

Respectfully Submitted,

Chris A Malcolm

Now I'm going back to happy lurking.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Geez Chris, if we used this forum in a positive mannor that take all the fun out of it. It's more fun to talk about bringing in Arc welders to fix a water line, I rather enjoyed watching as this problem took on a life of it's own.:laughing:

The question Mike asked was simple.

Mike


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