# Paying 42% worker's comp rates for roofing...ouch!



## 232323 (Mar 31, 2008)

Here in Montana we're paying $42 per hundred on payroll on roofing. Seems ridiculously high to me...just wondering what some of you other contractors in other states are paying for comp? It just about impossible to compete with these other contractors who claim no employees, but hire so-called "independent" contractors . I've seen one storm-chaser put as many as 20 "independent" contractors on the same roof. It has really turned the roofing business in this state into a complete joke.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

I don't know how these companies expect anyone to stay in business when you you have to pay that along with all the other expenses associated with a business. its like you might as well say if you charged 100 bucks an hour you might end up with 10 bucks when all is said and done, paying 42% F that

I don't like that mine is 15% just like paying SS over again. it's BS. people think contractors get RICH by charging what we charge when they have no clue how much we are raped by insurance companies.


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

232323 said:


> Here in Montana we're paying $42 per hundred on payroll on roofing. Seems ridiculously high to me...just wondering what some of you other contractors in other states are paying for comp? It just about impossible to compete with these other contractors who claim no employees, but hire so-called "independent" contractors . I've seen one storm-chaser put as many as 20 "independent" contractors on the same roof. It has really turned the roofing business in this state into a complete joke.



Its hard to compete but someone ends up hurting at the end of the policy period when there is an audit. No cert of ins from the subs and the contractor pays.


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

23% here with a .83 rating. I don't understand why it would be so high for you in MT unless you have a poor rating.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

55% here in MN. With a good merit rating it goes down to about 40-45%.

Paid $16K back in 08. Funny thing was my insurance agent said family don't need it. Subs with the same last name don't count I guess. That year I paid about $30K in insurance premiums for business and personal. Ya, they are raping us contractors. I don't like them and could care less if they like me.


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## 232323 (Mar 31, 2008)

Renegade said:


> 23% here with a .83 rating. I don't understand why it would be so high for you in MT unless you have a poor rating.


The 42% is without any claims for a number of years. Turn in any accidents and your looking at 50-60%.


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## 232323 (Mar 31, 2008)

dougger222 said:


> 55% here in MN. With a good merit rating it goes down to about 40-45%.
> 
> Paid $16K back in 08. Funny thing was my insurance agent said family don't need it. Subs with the same last name don't count I guess. That year I paid about $30K in insurance premiums for business and personal. Ya, they are raping us contractors. I don't like them and could care less if they like me.


 
So are all the out-of-state storm-chasers that invade Minnesota able to avoid paying the 55% like they do here in Montana? If so, that sure gives them a huge edge on labor costs..............
Funny thing about some of these insurance agents...they will hire some of these same guys with no liability or worker's comp. insurance to do their own house, since their "cheaper." Drives me crazy, but happens every day.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

Having to pay isn't what sucks, having so many cheat the system and not pay is what sucks.
If we all pay like were suppose to, then the cost will/would go down.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

The cost wouldn't go down much. They would just make more money. I'm not defending the guys without WC but I know ins. cos and they are greedy. 
The hospital bills for all the claims you never hear about add up to 10s of millions of dollars. 

What needs to happen is all the jackholes out there working unsafe and having guys get major injuries need to work safer and see what happens. I still think it would take decades of safer worksites for any rate to go down.

roofing is tough, usually guys are out of work forever with lots of surgeries when they fall off a roof, if they even live at all. That cost millions in law suits and claims from just one person sometimes.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Well, if all roofing contractors were paying, the number game would become much more uniform and people wouldnt be baffled when trying to figure out a few thousand dollar price difference for the same project.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Roofing in IL is 42%, which is why most people have carpentry insurance. They may do nothing but rofing but call themselves "whatever construction" note the construction. 

What Slyfox said, Amen. 



One thing about out of state storm chasers and their cost advantage, look into what states youa re actually insured to work in. I know I am not insured to work in any state other than IL. if you work out of state and didn't tell your broker, while you have a liece of paper saying you have insurance, you might not actually have insurance for those out of state projects. Just food for thought.


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

Sounds like some are talking about GL and some of us are talking about WC.


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## bcdemon (Jul 11, 2010)

Here in BC Canada Worksafe BC (sounds so much nicer when they call themselves that) charges 12.5% for steep slope roofing. I was in Laguna Beach CA. last Dec. talking to a roofing contractor and he said he was paying 55% but he never sees WCB on jobsites. In my town (of 90,000 people) we have 8 "safety officers" that drive around town looking for "unsafe" workers. And when they find "unsafe" workers, the fines come out, like $55,000 for a framer walking on top of a 14' wall with no rope. $5000 directly to the framer, $15,000 to his boss for no safety program, and $25,000 to the site contractor for no site safety program.

Personally I think WCB should be disbanded, there is no need for them now. Back in the day (1920's) when there were very little insurance companies and even less money to go around, they were an integral part of the labour force. But nowadays they are just a scam if you ask me. The fact that an injured worker has to "apply" for injury compensation is a joke, because just like a job or a credit card, you can get denied, and depending on your type of claim, the chances of denial go up. They will lie through their teeth in order to deny a claim. WCB also claims an approximate 20% fraudulent claims rate, but in 2008, Worksafe BC only had 1 person charged with fraud, so why were the other 9800 injured workers denied that year?
I have experienced the wrath of WCB, I will never trust, respect, or give them one cent of my hard earned dollars.

Sorry about going off there.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

bcdemon - agree with all you say. WC is a mess. Same stuff here in Ontario. 
But what are we to do? If you don't have employees, you can't take on larger work. So they've got you. 

The huge fines are just a money grab. Fines like that would put me under.

Scary stuff eh?


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## bcdemon (Jul 11, 2010)

katoman said:


> bcdemon - agree with all you say. WC is a mess. Same stuff here in Ontario.
> But what are we to do? If you don't have employees, you can't take on larger work. So they've got you.
> 
> The huge fines are just a money grab. Fines like that would put me under.
> ...


Yeah man, I understand that without employees you can't take on large jobs or increase the volume of your work beyond your own capabilities. Unless of course your the Walton family with a whole crew in one household :laughing:

And it's the fines that make me rope up everyday.


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## Pro roof system (Jun 28, 2010)

yeah that is outrages


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

WC varies by trade. Some people, like painters, pay the same for their WC as I do for my GL. WC & GL also vary by state (and of coarse country). Finally all insurance rates vary by your modifier, but at best I have never heard of anything having more than a 2.something modifier meaning they'd pay 2 points less than me.


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## CarrPainting (Jun 29, 2010)

insurance companies need a reality check in my opinion. Most contractors aver very safe, and would never send their men up onto anything unsafe.... yet they continue to charge outragous fees,. then, when something happens out of pure accident they fight it tooth an nail. Insurance companies are just as bad as lawyers.


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

Just a little off topic, but not really:whistling

Think about what the doctors pay in malpractice insurance.


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## bcdemon (Jul 11, 2010)

PA woodbutcher said:


> Just a little off topic, but not really:whistling
> 
> Think about what the doctors pay in malpractice insurance.


Different type of insurance all together. Malpractice insurance is like a roofers leak insurance, it protects the worker from his own errors in workmanship.

And on that note, a Surgical Center Dr. pays a Worksafe BC premium of $0.35 per $100 earned, whereas a steep slope roofer pays $12.10 per $100

Worksafe BC makes almost $8000 a year because I get up and go to work.
My personal RBC disability insurance plan costs me only $1800 a year, and I don't have to "apply" for coverage.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

A general practicioner doctor pays about the same as ROOFING contractors in mal practice insurance. I've discussed this with a few doctors. AND the doctors don't have to sell against jack-leg hack trunk slammers with no insurance, like we do.


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

Oh, I agree Grumpy. I was just merely making a point that we all complain about the rising cost of medical insurance and blame it on the doctor and the professionals. It's the percentage I was looking at.

Sad attempt at humor maybe.

I do agree with licensing and would love to see strict enforcement to eliminate the jack leg, hack, trunk slammers. I'm 46 and doubt like hell it will happen in my lifetime.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

From what I hear FL is about the most strict when it comes to operating without proper licensing. I wish it were a felony here too to roof without a license. This might be a topic for another thread however.


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## designer-fixit (Jul 13, 2010)

i agree on the owch part,the workers copm rates can kill you sometimes but in the end its sooooo worth it, cuz ya never know when some one will acctualy need it. its better than getting sued by a worker for them not being careful....


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## bcdemon (Jul 11, 2010)

designer-fixit said:


> i agree on the owch part,the workers copm rates can kill you sometimes but in the end its sooooo worth it, cuz ya never know when some one will acctualy need it. its better than getting sued by a worker for them not being careful....


 But why do we have to pay into the WCB fund? Why not get the choice to pick our own insurance company with way cheaper premiums and an easier time when someone is injured? 
How on earth do some of you guys survive paying 42% to WCB? It would be pointless to even have an employee at that rate.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

BC - I'm no fan of comp. But it's not the same as your personal insurance.

I carry personal liabilty insurance. Covers me 24/7, they don't care how I'm injured. If I can't work, they will pay.

But that's all I get - some money. They won't rehab me, won't support me for life if I'm never able to work again, won't retrain me. 

Workers comp will do all this (assuming you qualify). That's why it's so expensive. Yes, some take advantage, but they've really cut down on that.

I think they could probably run a little tighter ship, but I also think if it were left to free enterprise, we would be paying a lot more for the same coverage.

The best way for the rates to come down is for everyone to get all the training they can on how to work safe, then work safe. The less accidents we workers have, the less they pay out, and then the rates can decrease.

I just sent my guys for updated fall arrest training. They all have whmis, and I've got first aid. Safety meetings every week.

Today I taught everyone how to tie off properly in an emergency. And they all have permission to tell me to shove it if I ever ask them to do anything that's not to safety standards.

( boy, that was dumb ) :laughing:


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