# Service cancelation and Refund question



## mike gee (Oct 17, 2021)

Hello guys

I have a sittuation i would like to hear oppinions and experience .

I have job i started for a client, I send the the contract that include pricing ,they send me first payment.
they never signed the conteact.
the first peyment by the contract is 59,000 but they sent me only 20,000.
the amount they sent me is good only for demo and cleanup acording tthe oprices at the contract.
and i started the plumbing the is only, the plumber dinnt work every day and they didnt like the idea the plumber works and decided to send me a cancelation latter.they asking me for money back.
at the contract there is still 4months left time to the dead line of the project.
and ,I dont any mention about non-refundeble money or cancelation fees at the contract.

the main question do I need to return any money at that kind of situation.

the work done in ohio.


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Can’t understand it sorry


Mike


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Drinking too much?


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## David-Remodeler (Nov 30, 2018)

Yeah, even if I look at it like a fun puzzle where you have to fill in the blanks I can barely start to tell what’s he’s saying.

OP, slow down, try editing this for clarity, spelling etc so we understand what you’re asking. 

You probably need a lawyer more than opinions from strangers on the internet, though those can be helpful too.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

mike gee said:


> they never signed the conteact.


This answers the question. 


Mike.
*___*


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## wallmaxx (Jun 18, 2007)

Hello guys

I have a sittuation i would like to hear oppinions and experience .

I have job i started for a client, I send the the contract that include pricing ,they send me first payment.
they never signed the conteact.
the first peyment by the contract is 59,000 but they sent me only 20,000.
the amount they sent me is good only for demo and cleanup acording tthe oprices at the contract.
and i started the plumbing the is only, the plumber dinnt work every day and they didnt like the idea the plumber works and decided to send me a cancelation latter.they asking me for money back.
at the contract there is still 4months left time to the dead line of the project.
and ,I dont any mention about non-refundeble money or cancelation fees at the contract.

the main question do I need to return any money at that kind of situation.

the work done in ohio.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

You're entitled to fair pay for the acceptable work you've done. This may be modified by licensing requirements and consumer regulations in your area.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Despite the spelling and grammar, I will reply. 

I think when you accepted the partial deposit, and started the work, a contract is in effect. Maybe not the contract that either party hoped for, but a transaction of funds on their part, and labor/materials on your part, means that some kind of agreement is in place.

Might also be why I have no trouble finding good work in Ohio.


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## onmywayup (Aug 18, 2012)

Holy hell, I hope someone else wrote your contract for you


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

I think Davis and Warren are right, imo.

I would ask to meet him there to walk the job. See what his complaints are thus far, while being honest with yourself about quality of workmanship. Find out what will remedy the situation to where you can proceed with the job. Mention the contract and initial draw required. He's not living up to his end of the deal, assuming he verbally agreed to deal.

If there is no resolving differences, document work completed while there and refund him the balance or bill him for balance if one is due.

You will most likely be talking to an atty if it gets to a balance due situation.

Good luck.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

It's important to understand there was no contract in effect. The alternative is there was a contract in effect, and the OP accepted to complete the first milestone for $20K.

IMO the correct position for the OP is there was no "meeting of the minds", and so no contract. It wasn't signed. Agreement was believed to be on everything but payment schedule.


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

If I recall correctly, I had an atty advise me about 20 years ago that Ohio will uphold a verbal contract. The terms would be hard to prove, but, in this case, they are spelled out in the written contract. An arbitrator would rely on the written contract for any disputed terms because both sides started the project based on it. This would be considered a verbal contract.

Sticky situation that could go either way depending on atty and judge.

I don't think accepting a partial payment for phase one constitutes payment in full for said phase.

From the limited info, I would say client is in breach for nonpayment and cancelling the verbal without good reason. 

Meeting would clarify the situation and then atty would be best to advise next step.


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## reggi (Oct 12, 2020)

Always easier to lawyer up than to lawyer back down. Like Ed said, maybe just talk to them first. Bring Starbucks or something.

I also agree about the composition. It’s rough.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

You want to give them enough money back so that when they take your offer to their attorney, he tells them "Take it."


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Once you accepted the lesser payment the original contract terms are invalid, imo


Mike.
*___*


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## Half-fast Eddie (Aug 21, 2020)

Looks like the customer withheld the first payment on the plumbing scope because he didn’t like the hours being worked by the plumber. Too bad, the customer cannot dictate actual working hours, that’s one of the criteria for determining employee or contractor. As long as the plumber is keeping the project on schedule, he is not deficient. 

Mike Gee needs to have a face to face meeting with the customer, settle up the finances for work complete to date including material ordered, and then walk out with either a signed contract or an agreement of mutual cancellation.


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Calidecks said:


> Once you accepted the lesser payment the original contract terms are invalid, imo
> 
> 
> Mike.
> *___*


Original contract was never signed. Start of work with money accepted constitutes a verbal contract, presumably based on original written contract. Cannot be proven that the terms are the same, as I stated earlier, but are a good basis for an argument for a verbal contract. The details would be arbitrated and a judge or magistrate would make a determination on what a realistic outcome would be. There would be a burden of explaining why the terms would be changed on both parties if the details changes drastically. Otherwise, they would follow the original contract as a guideline for a determination.

None of that would be contractually enforceable, but more of a binding arbitration with a lack of a signed contract. At the time I looked into it (20ish years ago), verbal contracts were enforceable. At the mercy of the reasonableness of the arbiter.

That's where it gets sticky.

Edit: In Ohio.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Verbal contracts are worthless when one person claims "up" and the other claims "down". 


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Also accepting the lesser amount by default means you've invalidated the original terms.

Actually accepting anything that is different than the terms of the original contract means you've disregarded the terms. 

Mike.
*___*


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Calidecks said:


> Also accepting the lesser amount by default means you've invalidated the original terms.
> 
> Actually accepting anything that is different than the terms of the original contract means you've disregarded the terms.
> 
> ...


Yes, they've disregarded the terms of the contract he didn't get signed. It was never a contract.

Then, they entered into a different contract known as a verbal contract.

Then you are up to speed to where he is at now. He has a verbal contract that is enforceable in the state of Ohio. It is worthless when one claims up and the other claims down, as you've said. When they begin a project with a written contract that they both effectively agreed to, but haven't signed, it is a different story. They have an agreement that a judge will arbitrate to be fair in the courts view. Services rendered will be required to be paid for. Backing out of the deal will be considered, depending on reasons and circumstances.
It is still a legal agreement that both sides have rights and responsibilities to. 

Verbal contracts are not useless in Ohio if you can show a good faith attempt to provide a fair service for a fair price. The "draft" written contract that was the basis for the deal demonstrates that both parties were in agreement until the breakdown. Client is on the defensive now.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Ed Corrigan said:


> Thanks for posting on ContractorTalk.com. The Moderators of this forum would prefer that you post Homeowner and/or Do It Yourself related topics on our sister site www.DIYChatroom.com
> 
> ContractorTalk.com is designed for professional contractors to discuss issues and topics related to the construction and remodeling industries. Many of our professional contractors are also members at DIYChatroom.com and are looking forward to assist you with your needs.
> 
> ...


That's it you give up? Lol


Mike.
*___*


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

If you can't read the applicable codes, I can't discuss this with you. You keep insisting that the code I cited doesn't exist and then you cite irrelevant codes. Yes, I quit to that.

Give me a call when you pass the Ohio bar and we'll talk.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Ed Corrigan said:


> If you can't read the applicable codes, I can't discuss this with you. You keep insisting that the code I cited doesn't exist and then you cite irrelevant codes. Yes, I quit to that.
> 
> Give me a call when you pass the Ohio bar and we'll talk.


So your position is a verbal right to cancel is binding?


Mike.
*___*


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Calidecks said:


> Try telling a judge you gave the HO a verbal "right to cancel"
> 
> He'll laugh you right out of the courtroom.


If that's your whole argument, you really missed the point of the conversation.


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

There is no requirement for right to cancel under HSSA according to the ORC in this case. See previous posts.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Ed Corrigan said:


> There is no requirement for right to cancel under HSSA according to the ORC in this case. See previous posts.


The only time a right to cancel is not required is if the customer came to your place of business and you didn't make the sell at the home.


Mike.
*___*


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Ed Corrigan said:


> From the exceptions of ORC 1345.21 Home solicitations sales.
> 
> (6) The buyer has initiated the contact between the parties and specifically requested the seller to visit the buyer's home for the purpose of repairing or performing maintenance upon the buyer's personal property.
> 
> Not saying verbal contracts are the way to go, but they are still valid under HSSA


Post 37


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

My argument is there are some things that by Ohio state law that have to be in writing. Verbal doesn't cut it. I would argue there are written requirements of certain things in all 50 states.


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

As used in sections 1345.21 to 1345.28 of the Revised Code:

(A) "Home solicitation sale" means a sale of consumer goods or services in which the seller or a person acting for the seller engages in a personal solicitation of the sale at a residence of the buyer, including solicitations in response to or following an invitation by the buyer, and the buyer's agreement or offer to purchase is there given to the seller or a person acting for the seller, or in which the buyer's agreement or offer to purchase is made at a place other than the seller's place of business. It does not include a transaction or transactions in which:


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Ed Corrigan said:


> Post 37


That's not what the OP was about.

Has nothing to do with maintenance or repair. 


Mike.
*___*


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Calidecks said:


> My argument is there are some things that by Ohio state law that have to be in writing. Verbal doesn't cut it. I would argue there are written requirements of certain things in all 50 states.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> *___*


Agreed. That doesn't apply to the topic at hand, though. There are also some things that do not have to be in writing. Verbal will suffice. That's why they have so many pesky codes to apply to every situation.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

So without anything signed it's not binding. It's not even a contract. In fact the very minimum was not met. 


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

But hey Ed no hard feeling buddy it's been fun! Lol


Mike.
*___*


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Calidecks said:


> That's not what the OP was about.
> 
> Has nothing to do with maintenance or repair.
> 
> ...


First phase was demo and clean up. Never stated scope of work.

I was responding to your asserting HSSA and rebutted, successfully I might add, since we're assuming facts.


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Calidecks said:


> So without anything signed it's not binding. It's not even a contract. In fact the very minimum was not met.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> *___*


Sure it's binding. "Verbal contract"


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Calidecks said:


> It does not include a transaction or transactions in which:


There ya go now. Scroll a little further...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Ed Corrigan said:


> There ya go now. Scroll a little further...


He sent her the contract. Means she didn't come to his place of business. Three day applies.


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Bottom line. Ohio requires a written contract for remediation. 


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

My understanding of the three day right to cancel is: If you don't get one signed for your records the HO can cancel anytime up until they've and you've recieved it.


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

DID YOU KNOW that it doesn't matter what state you live in, the Federal Government has ruled that ANY Home Improvement Contract signed in your customer's home must give the customer the right to cancel the contract within 3 business days after they sign FOR ANY REASON. This applies to any job whose value is $25 or more.

DID YOU KNOW that a customer who is entitled to the rights offered by the 3-day cancellation rule and who is not properly notified of these rights has THE RIGHT TO CANCEL the contract ANYTIME until 3 business days after they receive proper notification of this right???


Mike.
*___*


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

An unsigned contract from the OP means she has the right to cancel anytime she wants as she did.


Mike.
*___*


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

Your attention sure wanders. The topic was if it is legal to have a verbal contract in the state of Ohio. It has been demonstrated as legal and you agreed to it.


Calidecks said:


> They're not saying it's illegal to not have a contract


The topic of a remedy for breaking a verbal contract, I can only address with anecdotal evidence of people I know having said yes. Haven't been there myself. That seems to corroborate my viewpoint.

Can't really help you other than that.

Btw, it's 2 a.m. here. I will have to annoy you more tomorrow, if you like.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Ed Corrigan said:


> Your attention sure wanders. The topic was if it is legal to have a verbal contract in the state of Ohio. It has been demonstrated as legal and you agreed to it.
> 
> The topic of a remedy for breaking a verbal contract, I can only address with anecdotal evidence of people I know having said yes. Haven't been there myself. That seems to corroborate my viewpoint.
> 
> ...


Nope. What you seemed to think is a verbal contract in this case is binding. But I showed you what needed to be in writing to make it binding.

An unsigned contract is not a contract. Therefore matters none what was discussed verbally. They have no contract because they didn't meet the written legal minimum requirements. 


Mike.
*___*


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)

5 hours later...

I already said the unsigned contract is not a contract. It is what the verbal contract is based on and shows the intent of the parties. I'm glad you finally agree that the verbal contract is binding.

It HAS been fun, and no hard feelings at all.

Off to work...


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## Adam_PDD (Truck2go) (Aug 29, 2021)

Ed Corrigan said:


> 5 hours later...
> 
> I already said the unsigned contract is not a contract. It is what the verbal contract is based on and shows the intent of the parties. I'm glad you finally agree that the verbal contract is binding.
> 
> ...


I agreed, verbal contract doesn't mean anything.


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## Ed Corrigan (Jul 18, 2019)




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## GCTony (Oct 26, 2012)

Adam_PDD (Truck2go) said:


> I agreed, verbal contract doesn't mean anything.


I don't know if it's still the case but in Virginia 20 years ago, a verbal contract was a binding contract. However proving what was in that verbal contract is a whole other story. When I was young and dumb I did a small handshake job for a doctor, stuck me for $1,200.00. I did take him to small claims and won the entire amount because he didn't show up but the judge said; "I hope you learned something today young man". Next to everything is in writing; to this day I won't work for Doctors or Lawyers on their own properties.


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## Adam_PDD (Truck2go) (Aug 29, 2021)

GCTony said:


> I don't know if it's still the case but in Virginia 20 years ago, a verbal contract was a binding contract. However proving what was in that verbal contract is a whole other story. When I was young and dumb I did a small handshake job for a doctor, stuck me for $1,200.00. I did take him to small claims and won the entire amount because he didn't show up but the judge said; "I hope you learned something today young man". Next to everything is in writing; to this day I won't work for Doctors or Lawyers on their own properties.


Good to hear that you won the small claim case Tony ! It just sucks when knowing your team put in max. effort into a job and a shady customer comes in with million excuses of not paying. Nowadays, even when a customer wants to add a receptacle, *you sign*. To prevent future unnecessary arguments or court hours 💪


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## safehome2022 (11 mo ago)

wallmaxx said:


> Hello guys
> 
> I have a sittuation i would like to hear oppinions and experience .
> 
> ...


you guys are mean and the sarcasm is not needed.


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## Half-fast Eddie (Aug 21, 2020)

safehome2022 said:


> you guys are mean and the sarcasm is not needed.


You’re 3 months late. You have anything germane to add?


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