# At a crossroads



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Long post....

So, I have been doing some hard thinking the past couple of days..really sense I posted about coming up short on my designer roof project.

In response to this....


A&E Exteriors said:


> I've also been considering seeing about getting a job I am not sure exists.
> 
> Some kind of middle management position where I could do some sales, some production managing, and be the one to actually do some of the more complex parts of some installs. All this without having to own the company and the stress associated with that.....that's a LOT to hope for in a job though.




Rob said....



Deckhead said:


> Create that position.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just so you know Rob that was worth far more than a penny my friend



Deckhead said:


> create that position


This really stood out to me. 

It's time to be honest with myself. One person...myself included, can only do so much.

I had a great year overall. Amazing really, especially considering how it started off.

I had issues being paid timely for save a lot. That guy made his first couple payments, took off to Europe for 2 weeks till I was 100% complete with everything possible to be completed.

Then he drug his feet on the rest of the payments which were not agreed to in the first place until he was done adding penetrations and had chosen a metal color.

He drug around $55k out over 5 months. I just picked my final payment up today. 

He would wait till he had the HVAC guys put units in then write me a check always being a partial payment This would happen every few weeks

I was struggling coming up with money to pay the help and all my bills for most of the year because of it. I never want to deal with that ever again.

(To be clear I knew I would be paid..... but clearly on his schedule or I'd have liened the property. I did come close, I seriously considered it. We did have a contract and I pulled the permit. However payment schedules is not the topic at hand.)

I also dont know how to hire and keep guys. Having to let my right hand go kills me. I genuinely enjoy working with him and he does decent work....not the best but he does care about what he does. He wont grow up though. Parties all weekend every weekend, slacks hard when he has to tear off or do something he doesnt want to do. I cant continue to waste time and money on him....I am probably 2 weeks behind that I can contribute directly to him the second half of the season.

Point is I'm kind of over being the owner...chasing money and people on top of the work is becoming too much. Something needs to change.

I called the district manager of my supplier, he owned a flat roof company for 29 years. He has been an amazing resource for me. I talked with him yesterday evening about this. 

He listened to what I had to say and instantly said he had a couple companies in mind that he felt I would be a good fit with.

Well....I now have a meeting next Friday with one of these companies to discuss this. Lol

I am basically looking to do exactly what I do now, just not own the company

This is obviously not a one meeting decision. I'm thinking spring or summer next year.

Even if it is not this company that I am meeting with, somebody in this damn town has to need someone like me and be willing to pay me what I feel my value is. 


I dont know what to do with my stuff though, I've spent near $50k on trucks, trailers, and equipment the past 2 years.

I absolutely will not sell any of my trucks...not even the 6.4, I'm gonna fix it here soon I think

Not sure to keep or sell the robot, roof cutter, and dump trailer if they would even be willing to buy it. It's all very well taken care of and bought new with under 500 sq of use, hell the cutter only has like 250sq on it.


Thoughts?


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

Said years ago you’d be worth some nice money working for someone. Why don’t you want to sell anything ? 


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Also accepting relocation offers. Lol


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

NYgutterguy said:


> Said years ago you’d be worth some nice money working for someone. Why don’t you want to sell anything ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm attached to the trucks. 

The equipment I'd sell, but it's hardly used and I'll want hardly used money for it


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I'm attached to the trucks.
> 
> The equipment I'd sell, but it's hardly used and I'll want hardly used money for it




I’m sure if it’s hardly used you’ll get nice coin for it. Take your time and wait for the right offer. Not worth much just sitting in your yard. 


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

NYgutterguy said:


> I’m sure if it’s hardly used you’ll get nice coin for it. Take your time and wait for the right offer. Not worth much just sitting in your yard.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I reckon that's right. Obviously I'm wanting to keep my enclosed trailer, compressors, generators, saws and nail guns. The flat roof stuff wouldn't get used for sure more than likley.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I've though about oil field work too. But that's quite a career change. It pays what I want to make though


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Point is I'm kind of over being the owner...chasing money and people on top of the work is becoming too much. Something needs to change.
> 
> I am basically looking to do exactly what I do now, just not own the company
> 
> Thoughts?


You've said it twice right there. Nothing wrong with getting a steady paycheck without all the stress. Who knows, you may want to start up your business again in the future or maybe go in a completely different direction.

My current lead had his own business for years and had enough. He has never been happier. I pay him well and he works from 7AM-3PM and then goes home to his family with a clear head. He still does some side work of his own on Saturdays.

I too am growing tired of all that is involved with being a GC. I just have not yet figured out what's next for me.

Best of luck to you in whatever you decide to do :thumbsup:

And if it were me, I would sell all the business assets with the exception of a daily driver and some tools you might use.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I've though about oil field work too. But that's quite a career change. It pays what I want to make though


DON’T! I started roughnecking in 04, lasted til 2010

it’s boom or bust and a lot of time away from home. Anything oil and gas related is up and down like a roller coaster. You don’t wanna live that life. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. Money is not everything.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Point is I'm kind of over being the owner...chasing money and people on top of the work is becoming too much.


Frankly Andy, I've been awed by your :wallbash: for quite a while. Roofing is grueling just as a worker bee, not even counting being queen of the hive on top of that. Don't go down in flames.

As for the equipment, if you're seriously planning to go the employee route, dump it. Your employer should be furnishing that, and if he doesn't, unlikely he'll compensate you well enough for the use of your stuff to make it worth the overhead.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Frankly Andy, I've been awed by your :wallbash: for quite a while. Roofing is grueling just as a worker bee, not even counting being queen of the hive on top of that. Don't go down in flames.
> 
> 
> 
> As for the equipment, if you're seriously planning to go the employee route, dump it. Your employer should be furnishing that, and if he doesn't, unlikely he'll compensate you well enough for the use of your stuff to make it worth the overhead.


I guess I'm just scared to sell it preemptively. I mean if things go south 4 months down the road then what am I supposed to do for the big ticket items you know what I mean?


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## CScalf (Dec 18, 2008)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I guess I'm just scared to sell it preemptively. I mean if things go south 4 months down the road then what am I supposed to do for the big ticket items you know what I mean?


This right here tells me you don't really want to give up what you are doing. Maybe you just need a break and a vacation? I have done that from time to time.

I usually don't work much during duck season. That's my time. Killing birds heals my soul.

Just tell people you are booked and can put them on the schedule (when vacation/break time ends) or just pass on it.

Sometimes we all just need to stop and enjoy life to reboot...


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Oh, I totally get that. Not exactly apples to apples, but I'm still sitting on electronics gear I had when I shifted from that field into construction 15 years ago. Hung onto it just in case...

It was worth a chunk of change back then. Today, it's practically worthless. 

At least I still have it to look at and remember the feeling of being on the cutting edge...


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Oh, I totally get that. Not exactly apples to apples, but I'm still sitting on electronics gear I had when I shifted from that field into construction 15 years ago. Hung onto it just in case...
> 
> It was worth a chunk of change back then. Today, it's practically worthless.
> 
> At least I still have it to look at and remember the feeling of being on the cutting edge...


I can relate, almost never has hanging onto sh!t paid off. Don't need it, return or sell it.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

CScalf said:


> This right here tells me you don't really want to give up what you are doing. Maybe you just need a break and a vacation? I have done that from time to time.
> 
> I usually don't work much during duck season. That's my time. Killing birds heals my soul.
> 
> ...


I think I could do more with an established company than I can accomplish myself. 


I just want to be secure with the change for a bit of time before I sell 20k~of must have equipment for 15k should things not work out.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I think I could do more with an established company than I can accomplish myself.
> 
> 
> I just want to be secure with the change for a bit of time before I sell 20k~of must have equipment for 15k should things not work out.




I've got a buddy who is a roofer. Went to work for a large commercial outfit that mainly does TPO. He totally changed the way the company does business by creating maintenance accounts. The company has a few service crews now and constant money is coming in monthly. Huge cash flows. They now pay him bank. 


Mike.
_______________


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Commercial maintenance is a big deal. 


Mike.
_______________


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Maybe just find a really legit company you can sub for. Just show up and shingle and go home.

Let them get the work and deal with the customers and materials. Having the big ticket gear should bring you more money.

Employee is great, unless you are like most of us and suck at being one.

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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I've though about oil field work too. But that's quite a career change. It pays what I want to make though




Since we’re not talking about construction prices, what does that pay?


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I wouldn't sell the equipment right away. If anything, look at the tax consequences and consider doing it in phases.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Become a plumber.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

I think I’d buy the equipment to drill water wells “locally” long before you’d catch me roughnecking. That’s a miserable existence.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

I doubt your sincerity Andy. Each year about this time, you want to hi-tail it out of Michigan, and I get that.

Regardless, if you are serious, time to make a list of what you do, hire a resume writer, and upload resume to:

indeed
ziprecruiter
monster
careerbuilder

And once you are on those sites., start hunting for what suits you.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gra...rome..69i57.8455j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

*Unless of course, a big swaggering truck ass rolls up to your front door and hollers "I want you!"*

And get in a good supply of Chapstick. Might be worth getting a Costco account just for that one item.


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## rescraft (Nov 28, 2007)

Back in '85 , my room mate's friend made it out to the rigs. He got a Petro degree though. His job was to monitor the drill bit head so it went where they wanted it to go. Was making $125/hr whether he was working or not--paid to sleep,etc. That was 34 years ago.
But the schedule was rough--3wks on, 2 wks off. Was a bachelor so he didn't care.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

The though of diesel mechanic school has crossed my mind. Maybe open up a shop..."2nd shift mechanic" or something.

Cater to people who need their truck on the road during the day....people like most of us.... open about 10am close late as I need to.

I'd have to save up 50-60k and get a part time job somewhere to focus on school to do that though


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

A&E Exteriors said:


> The though of diesel mechanic school has crossed my mind. Maybe open up a shop..."2nd shift mechanic" or something.
> 
> Cater to people who need their truck on the road during the day....people like most of us.... open about 10am close late as I need to.
> 
> I'd have to save up 50-60k and get a part time job somewhere to focus on school to do that though


Play off your skills; roofing sales, roofing foreman, etc... Maybe once you've seen how a well run larger company operates and you've got some coin saved, you start a new roofing business.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

NJ Contractor said:


> Play off your skills; roofing sales, roofing foreman, etc... Maybe once you've seen how a well run larger company operates and you've got some coin saved, you start a new roofing business.


This is highly likley close to what is going to happen.

It would be a shame to waste my skillset.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

KAP said:


> That'd be tempting for most anyone...




Thats the same thing as my railroad job, great pay and great benefits however it doesn’t come without sacrifices. A lot of them

I dont recommend it.....its a tough life. 

Just about everybody I know would not be willing to sacrifice what I do for that job, But it does offer me and my family the ability for my wife to be a stay at home mother whereas not a single one of our friends spouses are able to stay home with their kids, they need dual incomes 


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

Between the hazing, nepotism, alcohol and drug use the oilfield is a hard place for the previously self employed. I broke out as the worm with ZERO experience. I had never even seen an oil rig in person. I was in outstanding physical shape and it still kicked my butt for about six weeks until I got accustomed to such HARD work. 

Literally everything on an oil rig weighs more than you. The drill pipe weighs a minimum of 16 pounds per foot. They come in 30 foot pieces. When you change a drill bit you pull them out in sections of three pipe at a time. Do the math on that and honestly ask yourself if a 40-year-old roofer has enough left in him to push drill pipe around a rig floor for 12 hours straight that’s hanging from a winch in the middle of the night when it’s 20 below zero. It really sucks! PM me if you want more info.


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Starts at 80-90k a year. No expierence neccessary
> 2 weeks on 2 weeks off



Way too hard for way too little for someone too old.


You might look into being a “handyman”

I put on four or five roofs per year for the fun of it.

An occasional deck or fence.

Most of my work is rot repair.

I work alone, no drama.

I can generally cherry pick my jobs.

It’s a comfortable niche.




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## TPS BOCO (Jan 30, 2018)

Don't go the oilfield route; I used to work for an OCTG company. 2 weeks on means 14 straight of 16 hour days, the 2 off makes it easy to blow money and relax too much- then when you go back it's like your 1st day all over again. Additionally, you'll pay 3k a month to basically live in a small shed. Lastly, unless you have a real high tolerance for stupid people it will be trouble- oil field is the last bastion of people who failed the GED test.

Feel your pain about clients paying on their terms. Did 2k worth of footers for a guy that just bought a 30 mil office building cash and chased him for 3 months to get paid. Near the end of that I was wishing he would take a swing at me- would've helped relieve my frustration......


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I would think it is safe to say roughneck life has been ruled out based on what I am hearing here


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I can go to florida for that kind of stress and at least be near the beach...lmao!


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Try being a gigolo. You already have the snake thing going for you...


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

...


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## Bull Trout (Dec 6, 2016)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Starts at 80-90k a year. No expierence neccessary
> 2 weeks on 2 weeks off




Based on what I’ve seen of your work that should be a pay cut


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Bull Trout said:


> Based on what I’ve seen of your work that should be a pay cut


Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate the compliment.


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## Bull Trout (Dec 6, 2016)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Long post....
> 
> So, I have been doing some hard thinking the past couple of days..really sense I posted about coming up short on my designer roof project.
> 
> ...




Maybe hire an office admin to do you billing and receivables? 

Or what Mike said, get some maintenance accounts. 

I don’t know your market but I would have guessed you were making 2x to 2.5x the oil field $


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

A&E, maybe some periodic downtime will get you through the malaise. Do you sprinkle in vacations, mini-trips, 3-day weekends or anything like that?


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Bull Trout said:


> Maybe hire an office admin to do you billing and receivables?
> 
> Or what Mike said, get some maintenance accounts.
> 
> I don’t know your market but I would have guessed you were making 2x to 2.5x the oil field $


I wish. I think I am gonna finish the year about 90-95. Total revenue in the 300-350 range.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

MarkJames said:


> A&E, maybe some periodic downtime will get you through the malaise. Do you sprinkle in vacations, mini-trips, 3-day weekends or anything like that?


The occasional 3 day weekend.

This winter though we will take an actual vacation. 2-3 weeks somewhere warm and on the ocean. 

After we finish B. Johnson's project we are taking a 4 day weekend to Naples to pick up an engine for my soon to be a hot rod truck. 

Typically though I am all work and little play. I'm not looking to make any snap decisions. This is obviously a huge decision.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

A&E Exteriors said:


> The occasional 3 day weekend.
> 
> This winter though we will take an actual vacation. 2-3 weeks somewhere warm and on the ocean. .



Damn bro. Maybe I should have stayed in the roofing business lol. 



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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

NYgutterguy said:


> Damn bro. Maybe I should have stayed in the roofing business lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You took a vacation this year....lol


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

A&E Exteriors said:


> You took a vacation this year....lol




3 weeks?????? Actually taking my gf away for a week this winter. So will be two in two years 


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

NYgutterguy said:


> 3 weeks?????? Actually taking my gf away for a week this winter. So will be two in two years
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, I'm gonna take probably 2 months off. Finally got some dough put away to spend on my house.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Well, I'm gonna take probably 2 months off. Finally got some dough put away to spend on my house.




Nice. I’d prob just take a week off, bust ass the other 7, and keep piling up dough so I have a much bigger reserve. That’s just me though. Enjoy your down time brother. 

My bad. Forgot about winter lol. There will be no busting ass for either of us lol 
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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

NYgutterguy said:


> Nice. I’d prob just take a week off, bust ass the other 7, and keep piling up dough so I have a much bigger reserve. That’s just me though. Enjoy your down time brother.
> 
> My bad. Forgot about winter lol. There will be no busting ass for either of us lol
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Well, I'm gonna take probably 2 months off. Finally got some dough put away to spend on my house.


That's not taking time off... that's just redirecting the beneficiary of your labor... :whistling :laughing:


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## TPS BOCO (Jan 30, 2018)

How opposed are you to relocating? Personally, I moved from 10 miles off the southern border to the front range of CO. Started contracting just because I saw pricing and labor costs in CO- whole different ballgame from down south. Take a look at property value history and developement here.........

On another note, I think the economy might go to sh*t nationally here soon. I'm in the hustle like crazy mode in advance and trying to diversify my skills and income sources beforehand. 

You could probably crush it here doing roofing and decks even in a downturn though.......


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

TPS BOCO said:


> How opposed are you to relocating? Personally, I moved from 10 miles off the southern border to the front range of CO. Started contracting just because I saw pricing and labor costs in CO- whole different ballgame from down south. Take a look at property value history and developement here.........
> 
> On another note, I think the economy might go to sh*t nationally here soon. I'm in the hustle like crazy mode in advance and trying to diversify my skills and income sources beforehand.
> 
> You could probably crush it here doing roofing and decks even in a downturn though.......





A&E Exteriors said:


> Also accepting relocation offers. Lol


Wasn't a joke.


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## hrm (Oct 17, 2017)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Point is I'm kind of over being the owner...chasing money and people on top of the work is becoming too much. Something needs to change.


I realize client "qualifying" and/or "screening" is a critical part to owning a company and/or running your own side-jobs, but for those who do approx how much of your typical day/week/month is consumed by chasing people and money that clients owe you? Is this something an owner simply has to "build-in" nowadays?


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

hrm said:


> I realize client "qualifying" and/or "screening" is a critical part to owning a company and/or running your own side-jobs, but for those who do approx how much of your typical day/week/month is consumed by chasing people and money that clients owe you? Is this something an owner simply has to "build-in" nowadays?




Back in the day chasing money was a full time job. As a one crew operation, I’d consistently have 35-45k owed to me at all times. Got rid of all the slow payers. 

Took a big hit sales wise, but my my sanity returned. Have one that takes 30 days but he’s always good for it. Homeowners pay the second the ladder goes back on the truck


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Wasn't a joke.


Colorado is cranking right now. Lots of work for good english speaking guys who do their own work. 

:thumbsup:


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

hrm said:


> I realize client "qualifying" and/or "screening" is a critical part to owning a company and/or running your own side-jobs, but for those who do approx how much of your typical day/week/month is consumed by chasing people and money that clients owe you? Is this something an owner simply has to "build-in" nowadays?


While that is partially true, this guy had me seriously considering how much jail time I was willing to do.


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## eastcoastjoe (Feb 27, 2019)

A&E Exteriors said:


> While that is partially true, this guy had me seriously considering how much jail time I was willing to do.


I've been there before. I find that a clear payment schedule takes most of that away. Amazing how fast the check book comes out when you tell em' your going to another job until funds are available.

I make it very clear at contract signing the job will be funded with their money not mine. All special orders paid up front in full. I also have all the payment milestones at start of work not completion. No sense in waiting on 20k because a $300 item is back ordered.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

eastcoastjoe said:


> I've been there before. I find that a clear payment schedule takes most of that away. Amazing how fast the check book comes out when you tell em' your going to another job until funds are available.
> 
> 
> 
> I make it very clear at contract signing the job will be funded with their money not mine. All special orders paid up front in full. I also have all the payment milestones at start of work not completion. No sense in waiting on 20k because a $300 item is back ordered.


He must've thrown the payment schedule I included in the 14 page quote in the trash.

I've done several projects for this guy. NEVER have I had this kind of issue getting money out of him. But I will have an issue taking on a guy that I estimate to be worth around 10mil easy... vs me..... in his little town.....is a big fight to take on. 

I've got it figured out though...his house needs a roof this coming year. I'm gonna whack him over the head with the price stick on it for being an ass hole about it. Lol


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

We had to reschedule. First meeting was today.

It went far better than I had hoped. I really like the guy and he seems very on the level, put off a positive vibe.

We have very close to the same vision for what my job would be. We are also on the exact same page as to what my value is, he then offered me profit sharing on top. 

He is at 70 roofs so far this year, I estimate that to be in the 750k-1,000,000 range. He thinks together we can do 200 next year. 


I could start tomorrow if I wanted too, however he was very understanding of my spring timeframe.

Way far into the future he said if all works well after the first year he would like to hash out a partnership. 

This could be big. It could also explode. Lol. That being said I am thinking I will try this out.

I also had an idea he absolutely loved. 

When I actually start I will just act like I'm the new guy for 2 weeks and work with the crew to get an honest look at what is going on when the boss isn't around.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

A&E Exteriors said:


> I also had an idea he absolutelyloved.
> 
> When I actually start I will just act like I'm the new guy for 2 weeks and work with the crew to get an honest look at what is going on when the boss isn't around.




Undercover boss, starring A&E 


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

NYgutterguy said:


> Undercover boss, starring A&E
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes sir. I cant think of a better way to get the inside scoop.

And then the guys will also know that I DO know what the **** I am talking about and am not some career desk jockey. LOL


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

A&E Exteriors said:


> Yes sir. I cant think of a better way to get the inside scoop.
> 
> And then the guys will also know that I DO know what the **** I am talking about and am not some career desk jockey. LOL




No offense dude. Don’t come across as a career desk jockey lol 


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

NYgutterguy said:


> No offense dude. Don’t come across as a career desk jockey lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I surely hope not. Lol


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm still kind of wrapping my head around the whole thing. 

It was a proud moment to call my Mom and have her put me on speakerphone so I could tell her and Mr. Chuck (my beloved stepdad...even at 40 years old I still to this day call him Mr. Chuck) about the job, the salary, and the long term potential.

I've disappointed them more than a few times so to make them proud for a change was awesome.


I don't know where I'd be without this place though. Certainly I would not be where I am and doing the projects that I am doing without a LOT of help I've gotten from many of you here over the years. I'd probably still be wondering how I was losing money roofing for $50 a sq as a sub.

I certainley wouldn't be in the position to have walked into that meeting and tell this guy exactly what I wanted to do on a daily basis, and that I want to make x amount of dollars per year, and that I think he should hire me to do the job I want to do.

So thank you all for helping me on my journey.


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## Lady Dreamer (Jan 6, 2019)

NYgutterguy said:


> No offense dude. Don’t come across as a career desk jockey lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You just made me laugh out loud. Lol 

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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I'd put a lot of thought how to approach the 2 weeks with the crew. A few things can happen. Office gossip can get around even before your first day. Some people may feel you spied on them, and have hard feelings. If your output is too high, some may think you tried to show them up.

Worse comes to worse, you can always say you're the new shirt, and you're learning their systems. Start average speed and keep upping it.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Lady Dreamer said:


> You just made me laugh out loud. Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


A&E should have gotten a pic.....


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

hdavis said:


> I'd put a lot of thought how to approach the 2 weeks with the crew. A few things can happen. Office gossip can get around even before your first day. Some people may feel you spied on them, and have hard feelings. If your output is too high, some may think you tried to show them up.
> 
> 
> 
> Worse comes to worse, you can always say you're the new shirt, and you're learning their systems. Start average speed and keep upping it.


This has crossed my mind and I will need to walk a fine line to pull it off. 

I think it needs to happen though. I need to know what I'm selling and know what they are capable of. One or two will probably quit or get fired. The foreman is the one who is going to probably be the most likley to feel like he was spied on and lied too. Hopefully it goes well and we dont have to make a lot of changes.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Truth be told you are spying on them. You don't have to let them get away with anything to get their respect. But you should be honest about some things. A good General eats with his men. It's important to have the respect of the crews. Imo


Mike.
_______________


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Calidecks said:


> Truth be told you are spying on them. You don't have to let them get away with anything to get their respect. But you should be honest about some things. A good General eats with his men. It's important to have the respect of the crews. Imo
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________


And there are going to be people who want to make life tough for you...people you'll probably end up firing because they are causing more problems than helping. Some will be pissed they didn't get the position.
A new sheriff in town is never easy.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Yup, best thing you can do is fire them as soon as you see they’re going to be a problem because that attitude can spread like wildfire.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

Please start a new thread once you start this new job. Spying, firing, pissing off guys who’ve been there a while. More to this than just being a bad ass roofer. People as well as managerial skills are just as important. Who do you think you are, Marcus Lemonis ? Lol Getting my popcorn ready. 


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

NYgutterguy said:


> Please start a new thread once you start this new job. Spying, firing, pissing off guys who’ve been there a while. More to this than just being a bad ass roofer. People as well as managerial skills are just as important. Who do you think you are, Marcus Lemonis ? Lol Getting my popcorn ready.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You already know I will


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## jstanton (Mar 25, 2012)

Personally, I think the spying is a terrible idea. Right off the bat the crew isn't going to trust you. Once you lose that trust it's almost impossible to get back.

I would introduce yourself and work with them to get a feel for things. You may have better ways for certain things and they might too. Your experience and knowledge is what's going to get their respect.

You already have a huge job ahead of you going from 75 roofs to 200. Let your role be explicitly clear you were hired to double the size of the company and become part owner. No b.s, no secrete agent, no playing games. From the moment you shake their hand they need to know you are their boss. If they don't like it, there's the door.

If I worked at a company that did what your proposing I would be your competition in short order. I'd also have half the crew coming with me and a chunk of customers. Once I was lied to it would be gloves off from their on out. Think if you were with a company for years and this happened to you. Just my 2 cents which is worth just that.


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## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

jstanton said:


> Personally, I think the spying is a terrible idea. Right off the bat the crew isn't going to trust you. Once you lose that trust it's almost impossible to get back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with this. I think Spying makes the employees feels like they are not being trusted


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## rescraft (Nov 28, 2007)

Just wear a body camera and don't say anything:thumbsup:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Nothing wrong with being ope and meeting with them as a group, give the vision of the company going from 70 to 200 jobs a year, your role in that, and letting them know what that translates into is opportunity... so as a way to get to know each other, simply tell them you're going to work with them for a week or two so they can get a feel for your skill level and you can get an idea of theirs (they're most likely not going to give you their least during that time)... tell them upfront, some guys are at a point in their career where all they want to do is roof because they're pro's (recognizing their value) and some have aspirations for learning and growing to the next level within a company (recognizing and promoting opportunity)... some progress within a company at different paces, but everyone's skills are going to be needed for all of us to be successfully grow to that level over the next year... 

200 jobs a year are going to require lead guys... there's your carrot on the initial run-through with them as well as a way to get an idea who is the weakest link on the chain, and no spying needed while getting the info you need, *but rather getting them to buy into the company/your vision...*

THAT'S the key... you're bringing them something, not taking away...


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

Stunt Carpenter said:


> I agree with this. I think Spying makes the employees feels like they are not being trusted




I agree

I do think it would be a good idea to work with them for a period of time even being the cleanup guy on the job to get a feel for how the operation runs and who is good at what on the current crews

This will get you a chance to get to know them on a personal level which will earn you respect as well as getting a feel for what The current employees can handle. This will give you an idea if any of them could potentially become a foreman or a lead as well when the operation grows. 

There might be some diamonds in the rough with the current employees that potentially could be key employees.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

You guys are probably right. 2 weeks is way too long to pull off. 

Thing is though, his crew is doing some slacking when the boss leaves. He told me they took almost 3 days recently to complete a 20 sq one layer walkable roof. That is a 1 day gig with 7 people.

I think I will just work the first day and then he can formerly introduce me by job title at the end of that day. I will be bringing a couple guys with me....so I will have eyes and ears there. Still plan to put the 2 weeks in and work with them so they can get a feel for my expectations.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Windycity said:


> There might be some diamonds in the rough with the current employees that potentially could be key employees.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That is what I am looking for.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Well. I am doing a couple small EPDM jobs for my future former employer next week. Lol


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm still getting used to the words "my boss" coming out of my mouth....everybody says that it sounds unnatural when I say it.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

...


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

...


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

That's jacked up.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

hdavis said:


> That's jacked up.


Understatement of the year.

I pointed out the 2' of shingle with no nails and the 5 blown through on the one side of the shingle and he said they just tacked it in place and were going to come back to renail it...yeah ok, pablo came back 15sq later and added the nails. 

Can't do it.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I'd value those scrap piles at about 35k in wasted material per year


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Got some calls about a few big flat roofs yesterday. All together...800-900 sq. 

One is a country club, I'm going to suggest we do second/ third shift on that one, one is a 380 sq new car dealership EPDM metal roof retrofit. Not sure the other one but it's a couple hundred sq too. These are good money, pretty easy projects.

I'm hoping I can land the deal and bring the work with me off the jump. We are talking (shooting from the hip here) in the quarter million dollar range for just labor as we would be subs on the project. Not providing any materials, bodies and equipment.

Joe hasn't had much success with the flats and isn't super keen on pursuing commercial. I told him all he has to do is sign the contract and deposit the check. So I am going after these jobs.

Hoping I can charge enough to make the future boss happy with the contract. He will obviously have to ok what I come up with. 


If he does decide he doesnt want to do anything with them, I'm gonna be bummed and considering holding off on taking a job for a few more months.
If I do that though im.sure this opportunity will be gone, and in the long run I'm not sure it would be the right move. 

Sometimes I wish there was a guide to life, teachers edition with all the answers in it.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I think you need to make a decision. Work for someone else or don't, but you need to decide. 

If you work for someone else, it isn't your decision to do the big jobs or not. It isn't fair to the other guy for you to keep bouncing one way then the other.

Do it or don't but you need to decide.

Honestly, if I could get that much work on my own, there would be no way I would consider working for someone else.

I also understand the issues you've had with help, or lack of help, but that just goes with the territory. Won't be any different working for someone else, except he will make the big bucks and you will do all the work and deal with the same employee issues for less money.

I'm rooting for you, but as much as you bounce back and forth, I'm not really sure what I'm rooting for.

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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Grass always looks greener from the top of the fence. But a lot of times when you jump down not so. On the other hand I’ve always gone with my gut & the ones that stick out to be the best for me was when I left stress traps not when I joined one. I can tell the way your swaying you won’t like it. Lean times, slow times, slow pay or no pay it’s the nature of the beast. Do you really want to take on someone’s headaches or manage your own. Don’t sell your chit


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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Haven’t been through this whole thread but back in my days of mopping pitch commercial was where the cake was at. So if joe blow don’t want to do commercial that tells me your the one that knows where to get the cake. If he’s not smart enough to know where the cake is the you have a competitor down the drain


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

VinylHanger said:


> I think you need to make a decision. Work for someone else or don't, but you need to decide.
> 
> If you work for someone else, it isn't your decision to do the big jobs or not. It isn't fair to the other guy for you to keep bouncing one way then the other.
> 
> ...


I'm going to work for Joe. 

I can either get a price he approves of or I can't.

He has in 8 days sense construction restrictions were lifted done 142k in residential roofing.

My salary includes 5% of net company profit paid quarterly. Realistily $40-$60k a year in bonuses. I also have option to buy the company.

He pays $2,500 a month on the website and seo tracking demographics and what not. I will say at the very least, I will learn a metric chit ton about how he markets his company.

As much as I want those projects for myself, smart money in my mind says get them for Northshore or dont do them. He has far more resources and access to decent manpower than I do.

That big piece of cake comes with a big piece of stress too.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Kingcarpenter1 said:


> Grass always looks greener from the top of the fence. But a lot of times when you jump down not so. On the other hand I’ve always gone with my gut & the ones that stick out to be the best for me was when I left stress traps not when I joined one. I can tell the way your swaying you won’t like it. Lean times, slow times, slow pay or no pay it’s the nature of the beast. Do you really want to take on someone’s headaches or manage your own. Don’t sell your chit


Welcome to CT guy. 
I swayed just now because I've never been in a situation where I was talking about realistically doing this amount of work. It is what I have spent the past 3 years striving for however.

I left the first opportunity I had because I turned my client over to the company and his crew butchered the job and then he tried to convince me of all people it was fine. 

I worked for Joe when I was a young roofer, I to this day use a lot of what he taught me over the years. 

He is highly intelligent, if I can step in and build a commercial division I will. If I step in and my job ends up being make sure the crew doesnt have to stop and fix the occasional broken truss or whatever so be it.


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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

Sounds like a winner to me. I didn't realize this was another guy.

Wish you much luck and happy fortunes.

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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

VinylHanger said:


> Sounds like a winner to me. I didn't realize this was another guy.
> 
> Wish you much luck and happy fortunes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


Thanks bud.


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

Try and consider what value an established Commercial division may be worth in the future...then consider if you should be compensated more than just PnL bonus and wage. Not saying don't build a commercial division via this company, more that you may consider arranging a different arrangement on it...such as partial ownership, and especially if considering actual company purchase. I'd hate to pay full rip on a company division I was largely responsible for creating...

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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

META said:


> Try and consider what value an established Commercial division may be worth in the future...then consider if you should be compensated more than just PnL bonus and wage. Not saying don't build a commercial division via this company, more that you may consider arranging a different arrangement on it...such as partial ownership, and especially if considering actual company purchase. I'd hate to pay full rip on a company division I was largely responsible for creating...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I think I kind of understand what you are saying. 

I'm gonna try to go with the flow for a bit and see how things look. I really want these projects so that I feel like I'm living up to my end of the deal before I even walk in the door.

All I have to do is make close to the same numbers his residential gets or more. But his crew is murdering a roof every day of high end residential up there. 

I guess it's hard to type my intent here. I dont want to be some huge commercial outfit and completley change the direction of his company but I like the idea of being in a position where we can be ultra choosy with the commercial we pursue. 

These are good flats and if I can get us what I think they are worth, everyone involved will be happy in the end.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

And I absolutely will be wanting a good slice of the pie should I secure these specific contracts


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Not ours yet but I think I am in the ballpark on it with a price Joe aprooved of.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)




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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I think I'm where I am supposed to be.

I can do this, pretty much facilitate the crew, keep them roofing, button up details, get us paid, and some sales mixed in for good measure.


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

Nice Andy, beautiful homes and views up there.

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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

META said:


> Nice Andy, beautiful homes and views up there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I can absolutely get used to this.

Me and Kevin buried our axe and I've got another one of my better guys coming up next week to join us.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I think it's safe to say I am not going anywhere for a while. 

Still love my job, and I think this was the best decision I have made in quite a while









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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

Ah, I recognize that logo too, although quite the distance down to my region.

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## rblakes1 (Jan 8, 2015)

You sure you want all of us to have your cell#?

-Rich


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

rblakes1 said:


> You sure you want all of us to have your cell#?
> 
> -Rich


At least you guys know who to call.  

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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

So....who had the bet that this would last 4 months? 

I am on my way to officially quit.

Everything changed after the church roof project....absolutely 100% everything changed. 

I was forced to let my guy go...he was taking entirely too long to do things which i understand and agree with.

I was subsequently switched from salary to paid per job/ task so basically just another warm body. I could make good money....possibly better but I can do it from the comfort of home too and it is not what I signed up for in the beginning any damn way. 

I have at best half a day of actual office training, which is what I was supposed to be doing.

He has a huge siding project we for some reason took on without having a siding crew. It is entirely to cold for me to think about doing it, not to mention I will lose my sanity if I go do it....
A. it's big and
B. I ABSOLUTELY LOATHE installing vinyl siding, even in nice weather it puts me in a foul mood.....like I would rather tear off 6 layers and cedar shakes OFF OF A 14/12 3 STORY ROOF than pull 50 some sq of siding, install housewrap, and new vinyl. 

I was sent last Thursday to a condo project to reinstall some vinyl the roofers took off to change flashing. 
They destroyed it.... much of it obviously flagrantly. Would have been nice to know that I should've brought a cut table, 8 or so spots like this, plus 2 walls that is probably a sq or 2 between them. 99% of it has an angle cut on it












Im still trying to figure out how they destroyed this corner post. 










Building number one out of 55 .....no thanks.

He said a lot of the siding was because it was so windy....40+ mph winds. My question is why did he send them to tear a roof off in that kind of weather. If I was the crew I wouldn't have gone but I don't know maybe thats just me. I won't be back unless he starts holding his crew accountable, he let's a lot of things they do go, stuff I have witnessed the man fire people over. I guess profits over looks and quality has to happen at some point. 

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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

_A lot of that has nothing to do with wind.

too bad it didn't work out._


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Like all of that had nothing to do with wind, it had to do with the crew was pissed because they weren't making any money 
He has spoiled them something awful over the past 3 years. Sorry.....not all roofs are up and over4/12 ranches 

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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

i hate vinyl siding too , almost as much as I hate captcha.


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

That large siding project was a big deal on a higher end home too. I can't believe they skipped HW on the original vinyl install. I'd be curious to observe any OSB damage for kicks. (Andy sent me picks of home)

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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I love doing vinyl siding. Light and easy to hang. Hate Hardy.

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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

So unbearably tedious though

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## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

That is true.

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## Kingcarpenter1 (May 5, 2020)

Too bad it didn’t work out Andy. Sometimes the grass looks greener & turns brown. Keep your head up & spirits keen. From what my buddy & recruited 2nd cut man tells me the market is still hot there. As I told you before you made your decision, you will end up being his biggest competition. I mopped pitch 3 years @ 1 point & know well hard arse roofers don’t let anybody get by w/chit. Hang in there brother, I’ve got a great feeling he’s going to find out what being out done is all about.

Mike


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Thanks man. I left the door open for a second attempt next year. We will see what happens and where I go from here. 

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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

I enjoy vinyl more than hardi but installing vinyl in cold weather is awful-always has split fingers and hit my fingers to many times with the hammer 


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