# Ask the Builder



## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

Hey guys(and gals),
I was recently doing some research on basement foundations when I visited a fairly well known site called "Ask the Builder". What I was reading didn't quite jibe with me so I decided to reply with a comment. For some reason my comment was never posted so I decided to cut and paste the page here. 
I'd like to know, was I out of line here?




Crawl Space vs. Full Foundation 
By Tim Carter
©1993-2009 Tim Carter 
Summary: Choosing a crawlspace over a full basement is a way to save money when building a new home. However, in the long run the usable space is a good investment. 
DEAR TIM: My husband and I are having a large (24x18 feet) room addition built. Our house has a full basement. Our builder says the cost to upgrade from a crawlspace to a full basement would be prohibitively expensive. Is this true? How would the two basements be connected? What could be done to water proof the new foundation? P.A.

DEAR P. A.: I don't know if I necessarily agree with your builder. Yes, there is extra cost involved to turn your proposed crawl space into a basement. However, the added cost to create usable basement space is a worthwhile investment.
From a building standpoint not much has to be done to create this space. Your backhoe is already there to dig for the crawl space. He just needs to stay for an additional 4 - six hours. There is no up charge for the footer. Your foundation walls only need five or so extra feet of height. Add a concrete floor, foundation waterproofing, and an entry opening to this new basement and you are ready to play some ping pong!
I did a quick cost analysis. At current prices in my city here is the cost breakdown to achieve the full basement:
extra excavation $250 
extra foundation height $1,650 
cut opening into old basement $380 
concrete floor $1,050 
foundation waterproofing $480
You get a $150 credit for the floor insulation you would have had for your crawl space. The total cost of the upgrade, less profit and overhead, would be $3660.
　
　
　
　
Hi Tim,
If it's ok with you, I'd like to respectfully disagree with the advice you gave P.A.
I understand this is an older post and the nice folks who originally posted are probably playing ping pong in their new basement which probably ended up costing them thousands of dollars more than the $3660 upgrade you had quoted them.
1st of all, the extra excavation time could be considerably more than the 4-6 hrs you quoted. In many, if not most areas, the further you dig down, the more rocky and slabby the earth becomes. Many times it's necessary to bring in expensive jack hammers and more labor to run them. In fact hours can easily turn into days. Then you have to deal with all of the dirt being taken out of the ground, which can cause a clogging effect on a tight space work area. 
When you said it would cost less than $400 to cut a hole from the existing to the new basement, I'm wondering; does that hole go from slab to sill plate? It seems to me that a header of some sort would need to be taken into consideration so the the building above doesn't collapse or sag.
Also, I'm wondering if they are playing ping pong with flash lights or night vision goggles. Other wise they would probably need to power up the basement somehow. My guess is it would take an electrician, which we all know don't come cheap to HO's.
I would like to say that I enjoy your website and have turned to it many times for helpful insights, but I'm not sure you did the HO's or the their builder much of a favor on this one. I think you said it best when you stated, “I did a quick cost analysis”.
Again, this disagreement comes with much respect.
Rick


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Your points sound reasonable to me, around here we usually have bank run or clay, so the extra digging is usually not that much of a big deal, otherwise i agree, the numbers where light. G


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

I'd say in principle, he's right.
I don't know about his numbers,
or how old they are, but it sure 
does depend on what part of the 
country you are in.
His only fault would be painting
with too broad a brush.
Did he know that the OP was in his area?


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

Just a quick after thought, which I never mentioned in my reply to Tim; 
If you're playing ping pong down in your basement, wouldn't most people like to be somewhat comfortable? meaning they'd need a way to heat and cool the space.

most crawls have a ventilation sytem which allows the radon to escape and the moisture to subside. I'm not aware of any basement that uses this sort of low cost air conditioning system. It seems to me that extra hvac costs would need to be considered. Not just for duct work, but also for a larger size furnace and AC and proper insulation.

by the way neo...the posts came from late 08 and early 09.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

neolitic said:


> I'd say in principle, he's right.
> I don't know about his numbers,
> or how old they are, but it sure
> does depend on what part of the
> ...


Neo,
If you can get a basement done for any where close to those numbers, I'll be sure to sub the next one I get out to you. Just be aware that I'd be breathing down your neck to make sure you're not cutting any corners.

But 1st you might want to read my reply to him where I clearly spell out the potential for extra costs.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

We recently added on to our house and we added the basement addition too. It was worth every penny. Yes, it was a lot more expensive but like I stated, the extra play area for the kids for those days they can't go outside, are priceless.

Here we are digging the new basement:









After giving up on that sh!t, we got bigger tools...









and paid someone to do the work:








:thumbsup:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Hoof Hearted said:


> Neo,
> If you can get a basement done for any where close to those numbers, I'll be sure to sub the next one I get out to you.


The mechanicals don't really add that much.
The furnace is there, the electrical is routing
through it, it isn't adding that much load
to the heat, and A/C is nearly nothing.
I have no idea where you are.
Maybe your water table is 3' down.
Maybe bedrock is 2' down.
Here we have clay for a looong way,
and a basement is the cheapest square footage
you can build. (given a crawl as the alternative)


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

neolitic said:


> The mechanicals don't really add that much.
> The furnace is there, the electrical is routing
> through it, it isn't adding that much load
> to the heat, and A/C is nearly nothing.
> ...


The furnace that's there is undersized as well as the AC, the electric that's going 'through it' is actually going through the walls above the basement. And you would need a new ciruit(s) to accomodate for the minimal lighting and the recommended outlets. That is unless you're thinking of splicing from existing wires. The power at the current service panel may not be adequate. 

Stating that things are next to nothing and the cheapest way to go just doesn't cut the mustard with me or most potential clients.

I'm sorry sir, please try again.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Have to agree. We had to add circuits, run a bunch more duct work, get a bigger furance and so on and so forth. Still it was worth it.

Then we had to run those new ducts beside the old ones to get to the new section. I wonder if they had windows on their old basement walls they had to take into consideration? We did. It's now a built in cabinet.:whistling


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Hoof Hearted said:


> The furnace that's there is undersized as well as the AC, the electric that's going 'through it' is actually going through the walls above the basement. And you would need a new ciruit(s) to accomodate for the minimal lighting and the recommended outlets. That is unless you're thinking of splicing from existing wires. The power at the current service panel may not be adequate.
> 
> Stating that things are next to nothing and the cheapest way to go just doesn't cut the mustard with me or most potential clients.
> 
> I'm sorry sir, please try again.


I have thought about it, 
and I have done it, and I am sitting
on top of a basement right now.
the electrical service is down there.
It branches across the basement to 
get to the walls for the upper floors.
The furnace is down there.
The supply and return trunks
cross it to get to the upper floors.
If you add space on the upper floors
you will have to up size HVAC capacity
for that.
The extra load for the basement is negligible.
But have it your way.


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## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

those numbers would get you pretty close around hear
as an unfinished space
I would add ins in my area +500-1000
add for any other extras


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

Cdat said:


> We recently added on to our house and we added the basement addition too. It was worth every penny. Yes, it was a lot more expensive but like I stated, the extra play area for the kids for those days they can't go outside, are priceless.


 
Thanks for the great pics, Cdat. Everything looks good from what I can see. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that a lower level walk out instead of an actual true basement? Also, what material is that being used for the footing forms? just curious thanks!


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## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

cdat whats in the cage


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

nailkiller1 said:


> cdat whats in the cage


As you can clearly see it is a baby pool....:blink:

The correct question is: why is a baby pool in a cage of chicken wire? :w00t:

Only Cdat can answer that....


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

CookeCarpentry said:


> As you can clearly see it is a baby pool....:blink:
> 
> The correct question is: why is a baby pool in a cage of chicken wire? :w00t:
> 
> Only Cdat can answer that....


 

I think I can handle this one for ya, cdat.

The cage is obviously to keep the chickens out of the kid's pool!:thumbup:


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

neolitic said:


> I have thought about it,
> and I have done it, and I am sitting
> on top of a basement right now.
> the electrical service is down there.
> ...


Lucky for you your electric service is already down there.
And your furnace too!
But this dicussion is about the extra costs for adding a basement foundation to an addition that was already planned for having a crawl.
Not the house YOU are living in. 
Perhaps the furnace and electric panel are already placed in the existing structure. If the 18x24 addition is only a single story then that's more than 400 sq ft of extra living space you would need to heat, cool, insulate and power up. 
Now you want to double that living space by putting in a basement and still expect your current furnace, ac, and service panel to carry the loads?

Furnaces and AC units are sized appropriately according to the size of living spaces for numerous reasons that I just won't have time to explain to you in this discussion.

The fact is the original HO's just didn't give enough details about the job for Tim Carter to tell them that for a mere 36 hundred bucks they'd be playing ping pong in their new basement.


You've got just 3 more tries on this one.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

neolitic;788521
The extra load for the basement is negligible.
quote said:


> I think a better way of stating this is: The excuses(or better yet, the lack of sound reasoning) I'm giving for adding the extra load to the proposed area, using the existing services is NEGLIGENT.:no:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Hoof Hearted said:


> Lucky for you your electric service is already down there.
> And your furnace too!
> But this dicussion is about the extra costs for adding a basement foundation to an addition that was already planned for having a crawl.
> Not the house YOU are living in.
> ...





Hoof Hearted said:


> neolitic;788521
> The extra load for the basement is negligible.
> quote said:
> 
> ...


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

genecarp said:


> Your points sound reasonable to me, around here we usually have bank run or clay, so the extra digging is usually not that much of a big deal, otherwise i agree, the numbers where light. G





nailkiller1 said:


> those numbers would get you pretty close around hear
> as an unfinished space
> I would add ins in my area +500-1000
> add for any other extras





Hoof Hearted said:


> Lucky for you your electric service is already down there.
> And your furnace too!
> But this dicussion is about the extra costs for adding a basement foundation to an addition that was already planned for having a crawl.
> Not the house YOU are living in.
> ...


Look at it like this.
You are already paying for everything
from the frost line up.
That is the expensive part.
Going 4' down from the frost line is 
peanuts by comparison.

Seemingly you don't like basements.
Maybe you have permafrost where ever
you are.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

neolitic said:


> Hoof Hearted said:
> 
> 
> > This was the original premise.
> ...


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## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> The only proposed extras in that first post thingy, was to go down the additional extra feet for a basement, extra wall height, water proofing, slab, and a hole in the old wall.


From what I've read, Warner nailed it, everything else can be added at a later date. The idea was to do what was necessary at the time to have the ability to finish later.


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

We have to go down 4' for a crawl space footer and waterproof the foundation regardless of it being a crawl or basement. Another 4' deep and add a concrete floor doesnt add a whole lot of cost. The extra size for a furnace is gonna be nothing, electrician pulls an extra circuit for some lights seems like a no brainer to me. Plus you dont have to deal with all the mechanical laying on your back in a hole.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

WarriorWithWood said:


> From what I've read, Warner nailed it, everything else can be added at a later date. The idea was to do what was necessary at the time to have the ability to finish later.


You know, WWW, there was a time when I thought the same way.
Get it done now and worry about fixing the problem later. 

So we wait like what, 2-4 maybe 10 years to properly condition the area below your floor so that mold and fungus stop rotting away at the floor joists?

I never once mentioned "finishing" the basement. But if you're going to protect your house, then you need to take certain steps that might kind of suck, or cost alot of money, but properly conditioning the area below your house is paramount.

If you need to replace you're existing furnace for a new one that will handle the load, the cost is substancially more than the $3660 Tim Carter quoted in his forum.

The main reason for having duct work in your house is to remove the old wet disagreeable air and replace it with dry, comfortable, and house friendly air. Duct work doesn't magically appear out of thin air. It must installed by professionals who happen to charge as much, if not more, than anyone else in the trades.

Same goes for Electricians, and if you want to play ping pong, as Tim Carter suggests doing once the basement is done, then you're going to need at least one lighting circuit. This will require hiring a licensed electrician, who also happens to charge as much as anyone else in the trade.

I'm not saying we, as tradesmen don't deserve to make good money, for our dedication to excellence and hard work, but danm it you got to pay a guy something. You gotta buy the materials too.

I never said Tim Carter was a bad guy, in fact, he seems like a really nice guy who seems to be more than willing to help others, but I think he made a mistake here. I believe he spoke before he had a chance to really think about the situation, just as we all do from time to time. Ahem:whistling(I've been a belt slinger for over 18 years and I still love it).

I never meant to start a fight with any one here and I certainly don't feel as if I've been involved in one. Perhaps some of you feeling displaced anger about the situation should take it up with Tim Carter for leading homeowners to believe that proper basement installations will cost such a ridiculously low price. 

Remember boys, this sort of thing cuts into you and you're family's pockets.

Like I said, Tim Carter: Nice Guy, but I believe he made a mistake and he should try to fix it, just as all of us great builders do.


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## naptown CR (Feb 20, 2009)

So you're whole point is that it was priced low?
Do you know where the guy lives? 
Where do you live it isn't in your profile.
Why on earth are you making pricing judgements on something,or maybe more accuratly a market which you know nothing about.


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

So your gonna need ductwork for the new addition regardless of it being a crawl or basement right? So it runs through the basement and the heating guy cuts in 2 more vents. So if its a basement you worry about conditioning to prevent rotting joists but not in a crawl? Of all the rot cases ive seen, 99% were in crawl spaces or from a total lack of flashing around doors/windows. I dont think ive ever seen one instance of rot on floor joists in a basement and theres some pretty msuty skanky old basements around here. One lighting circuit, 75' of romex, a couple porcelain fixtures or shop lights and an hours labor for an electrician. Your making a mountain out of a mole hill here.


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Hoof Hearted said:


> You know, WWW, there was a time when I thought the same way.
> Get it done now and worry about fixing the problem later.
> 
> So we wait like what, 2-4 maybe 10 years to properly condition the area below your floor so that mold and fungus stop rotting away at the floor joists?



What do you mean by condition? Any footing here has to go down 4' as well

My other thoughts

1. A new addition will need hvac anyway. A person may get a price break from the tin basher if he doesn't have to crawl around in the dirt.
2. An unfinished basement would need a maximum of 1 circuit added. 
(4 lights, maybe?)
and the electrician will be there already.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

The additional cost for excavation, concrete, and finishing will vary depending on locality. The $3660.00 does sound low for the proposed work but it is not as far off as you are thinking. For what it's worth I ball parked it closer to $5900.00. That's not an astronomical amount and definitely no where near the kind of money you seem to be thinking this would cost. As far as electrical & HVAC are concerned whether it is a crawl or basement will not make a whole lot of difference in cost. Crawlspaces must have switched lighting to be code compliant and I don't think the one or two receptacles are going to break the bank. It's not uncommon now to have the crawlspaces conditioned so this may or may not be a cost factor. If the crawl was going to be conditioned then it would be nominal if any additional costs. Even if the crawl was not to be conditioned the upgrades would not represent a substantial amount of cost as you would only be increasing the size of the unit. The labor costs would be roughly the same.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

naptown CR said:


> So you're whole point is that it was priced low?
> Do you know where the guy lives?
> Where do you live it isn't in your profile.
> Why on earth are you making pricing judgements on something,or maybe more accuratly a market which you know nothing about.


I happen to know that in my area, material prices are the lowest in the nation.

Besides, I never gave any precise numbers, Tim Carter did.

I know just as much he does about the scope of the work.

It's all located in a single paragraph, which isn't even close to being enough info to give a price like that.

And I respectfully decline to share my where abouts for the same reason's I've told OG before: I don't need some wanna be internet bad-ass burning a cross in my front yard just because he didn't like something I said. Not that I think you, personally would ever do anything like that.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> The additional cost for excavation, concrete, and finishing will vary depending on locality. The $3660.00 does sound low for the proposed work but it is not as far off as you are thinking. For what it's worth I ball parked it closer to $5900.00. That's not an astronomical amount and definitely no where near the kind of money you seem to be thinking this would cost. As far as electrical & HVAC are concerned whether it is a crawl or basement will not make a whole lot of difference in cost. Crawlspaces must have switched lighting to be code compliant and I don't think the one or two receptacles are going to break the bank. It's not uncommon now to have the crawlspaces conditioned so this may or may not be a cost factor. If the crawl was going to be conditioned then it would be nominal if any additional costs. Even if the crawl was not to be conditioned the upgrades would not represent a substantial amount of cost as you would only be increasing the size of the unit. The labor costs would be roughly the same.


ARI,

I completely agree with you're point about the extra lighting and recs not breaking the bank, however it will require X amount of dollars for materials and labor. I also agree with you that conditioning the crawl may have already been in the budget. We just don't know these factors, nor did Tim when he rattled his prices off for the job.

Another point I had already made as well was; what if the houses existing Furnace and AC were already slightly oversized and the builder and the HO's thought they might be able to save some $$ by using the old sytem to condition the new addition. By doubling the space to condition, you are now severely pressing the load of the unit, in which case you'd have to buy another unit. NOT cheap:furious:! 

maybe they were planning on heating the new addition with base board or some other form of radiant heat. Now the problem is getting you're new basement conditioned and the house's existing furnace system may be no where near accessable to the new basement. And again it may not be able to carry the load. These can be quite expensive problems, wouldn't you agree?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

I have a full basement and the last time I was down there, I don't remember a single heat run. Which was about 15 minutes ago.

The furnace, water heater, and panel is down there. I also feel safe in there if there was a tornado.
Oh, I don't have a sump pump either. I must have a bunch of mold and fungus rotting away my house, it has taken a while though because after 120 years it still looks good.

Like I said before, you add 4' of wall, some tile, a slab, a little more water proofing and a hole to the other basement. Thats the difference between and crawl space and a basement. It really does not add that much.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

> And I respectfully decline to share my where abouts for the same reason's I've told OG before: I don't need some wanna be internet bad-ass burning a cross in my front yard just because he didn't like something I said. Not that I think you, personally would ever do anything like that.


This implies you like to run off at the mouth but are not man enough to face the possible retributions of doing so. It also implies you have something to hide and may not be what you are trying to represent yourself to be. I don't think anyone at CT is going to burn a cross in your yard, that would be a waste of lumber.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

I just think it's up to us to keep these celebrity builders in check. Some are legit, some aren't. Either one can be dangerous to our profession.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> This implies you like to run off at the mouth but are not man enough to face the possible retributions of doing so. It also implies you have something to hide and may not be what you are trying to represent yourself to be. I don't think anyone at CT is going to burn a cross in your yard, that would be a waste of lumber.


 


That kind of hurts Ari, and to think I actually thought you might be a little ahead of the game.

What would the possible retibutions be?

This kind of language seems quite aggressive although that little bit at the end was actually kind of funny.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

My bottom line here boys___ Don't ever go shooting off prices without looking at a project first hand. This can make you, the HO's, and Tim Carter look like a horse's you-know-what.

I still think Tim Carter is probably a hell of a nice guy, as I'm sure SOME of you are too!


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

You are correct that there are a lot of unknown variables to the scenario in question. That said why bother getting worked up over something that happened two years ago? Nothing that is said here will change whatever happened. Ultimately it would have been up to the contractor doing the job to explain what will cost how much and why. I also doubt anything said here is going to bother or change Tim Carter or any other celebrity builder, carpenter, or what ever have you. 

We can assume on either end of the spectrum. The original builder may have put an over sized unit in and the additional footage of a basement may actually prolong the life of the unit. A sub-panel may have already been included in the cost of the addition. You can make all sorts of arguments one way or the other but it still doesn't change anything that has happened.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Hoof Hearted said:


> That kind of hurts Ari, and to think I actually thought you might be a little ahead of the game.
> 
> What would the possible retibutions be?
> 
> This kind of language seems quite aggressive although that little bit at the end was actually kind of funny.


Don't read to far into it. The statements where not meant to imply physical harm. I basically was saying you should put your money where your mouth is. If you are afraid of what people will think about what you post or might do then think about what you are going to post before you do so. The bit at the end was meant to take the edge off the statement.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> You are correct that there are a lot of unknown variables to the scenario in question. That said why bother getting worked up over something that happened two years ago? Nothing that is said here will change whatever happened. Ultimately it would have been up to the contractor doing the job to explain what will cost how much and why. I also doubt anything said here is going to bother or change Tim Carter or any other celebrity builder, carpenter, or what ever have you.
> 
> We can assume on either end of the spectrum. The original builder may have put an over sized unit in and the additional footage of a basement may actually prolong the life of the unit. A sub-panel may have already been included in the cost of the addition. You can make all sorts of arguments one way or the other but it still doesn't change anything that has happened.


I don't ever recall getting worked up, ARI.
I do however recall you saying that I like to run at the mouth(which I thought was quite disrespectful) and waving some sort of retributions in my face for my behavior.

As a matter of fact, I don't recall doing any thing other than talking about what I love to do, which is build, design, and remodel.

If your'e worried that I'd use that sort of language against you, don't. I'm not the snitch who goes running to the regulators trying to get someone banned from the forum.

I have nothing to hide, but I do have a family to protect, and I'm nervous about the broad spectrum of the internet. I'm also extremely thankful for all of the help I've recieved at CT. I try to help others when I can as well. So I share what I know and think. It just so happens that not every one agrees with my facts or opinions.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

hughjazz said:


> What do you mean by condition? Any footing here has to go down 4' as well
> 
> My other thoughts
> 
> ...


Hugh,

I agree with you 100% the new addition will need new hvac, but you are leaving out the fact that the basement will need it to, just as Tim Carter did with the HO's.

The basement will need a at least one new circuit for lighting and a switch. Tim left this out as well. These things do cost money.

Also, a person may also not get a price break if the builder isn't a tin basher, and employes those who are happy to crawl around in the dirt.

Another scenario that may be taking place is; perhaps the house is located close to a flood zone. If so your new footing, sunk several feet lower than the crawl's, will be more hard pressed to keep out water after a big rain. This must be addressed in one of many expensive ways. Despite what some of you and Tim Carter may think, spending an extra few hundred dollars on tar or some sort of membrane on the exterior foundation walls won't be enough to stop the negative hydrostatic pressure that the joints between the slab and block wall will recieve.

This means water will rise from below the slab and foundation and come into the basement at the point between the block wall and poured slab.

Hell, you don't even need to be near a flood zone for this to happen.

So what do you do to stop it or contain and manage it?

There are ways but they are very expensive!

One way is to install a collection chamber and a sump pump and get rid of the water as it enters. Go ahead and start figuring up your'e prices for that. You'd better hope the electricity stays on to during a big storm or have an incorporated generator to run the pump when it's out!

Another way which I believe to be superior and known to only a few of us pros, is the sanitred system. I used to it water proof my basement and it's great. It's also quite expensive, and to completely seal out all of the water and radon in an 18x24 basement will likely cost you several thousand dollars for material and labor. You may get lucky and find someone who will do it for a few thousand. I highly recommend this product to anyone doing a new basement. Google sanitred and check em' out if you want to know more.

Radon will travel through concrete the same as water if not easier as radon will compress and water won't.

This must be adressed and traditional epoxies will only stop the radon temporarily at best. The reason being that epoxy hardens and becomes brittle over time. When the concrete swells and contracts, the epoxy is destroyed and rendered useless, where as the sanitred is rubber and remains elastic.

Even if you choose to use epoxy sealers, thats going to cost quite a bit for material and labor as well.

This is why it's so much easier and cheaper to install a ventilated crawl space than it is to properly seal and maintain a water/radon proof basement.

Won't you need some one to install a header in the "hole" that will be cut from the existing basement into the new? If not, wouldn't blocks potentialy fall on your head and/or parts of the building above begin to sag? This header will probably need supported by treated supports that will likely need fastened to the concrete opening. Again more labor, more material, more profit, more overhead.

I didn't hear Tim Carter mention any of these factors, and I think he needs to at least post my reply to him so that HO's don't go thinking it's super easy and cheap to have a proper basement foundation. I also don't want to see forums such as his drive prices down to a point where a halfass basement is the only option.

To do things right requires expensive procedures. Wouldn't you agree?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

wtf is going on in here?

What if they wanted two sump pumps, what if they wanted a stamped floor, what if needed something for something, or this or that.

What if no one really cares?

What if the guy was a rock star?

What if he was really a Wookie? Now how can Chewbaca be a wookie, it don't make sense!!


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## carpentershane (Feb 9, 2009)

I just read this entire thread and I have one simple question:


Who the hell is Tim Carter?

And the bonus question:

Who is more evil, Tim Carter or Bobby Powers?


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

Lol!

I'm drunk and I'm going to bed!


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Hoof Hearted said:


> I'm drunk and I'm going to bed!


 
Got it.:shifty:


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## Virginia Built (Nov 8, 2007)

*Concrete slab $1050?*

 AROUND HERE A 430 SQ FT SLAB IS GOIN FOR 8 DOLLARS A SQUARE FOOT< THATS $3420 ADD ANOTHER GRAND IF YOU NEED A PUMP> THATS GONNA HURT IF YOU DIDNT EVEN FIGURE ENOUGH TO PAY THE MATERIAL BILL...:w00t:


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## jtpro (May 21, 2009)

Hoof Hearted said:


> Lol!
> 
> I'm drunk and I'm going to bed!


Most people are when the posting in this thread becomes similar to other threads.

Good thing breathalyzers aren't required to post on CT. It reminds some of us why we quit drinking and hanging out with those that do!:laughing:


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

Virginia Built said:


> AROUND HERE A 430 SQ FT SLAB IS GOIN FOR 8 DOLLARS A SQUARE FOOT< THATS $3420 ADD ANOTHER GRAND IF YOU NEED A PUMP> THATS GONNA HURT IF YOU DIDNT EVEN FIGURE ENOUGH TO PAY THE MATERIAL BILL...:w00t:


 Are you having them truck the concrete over the Bay bridge from Norfolk? :laughing:


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## OGStilts (Aug 30, 2007)

carpentershane said:


> Who is more evil, Tim Carter or Bobby Powers?


You sir ROCK! just for dropping Bobby Powers name into this conversation! :thumbsup:


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## jkfox624 (Jun 20, 2009)

ARI001 said:


> Are you having them truck the concrete over the Bay bridge from Norfolk? :laughing:


Is that just to pour and finish the slab? If it is im moving to virgina. 2 guys could have that on the ground and finished in 4 hours tops. I could be content working half a day for $1400.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

jkfox624 said:


> Is that just to pour and finish the slab? If it is im moving to virgina. 2 guys could have that on the ground and finished in 4 hours tops. I could be content working half a day for $1400.


Yeah, I don't know who he's using but that is high who ever it is.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

hughjazz said:


> What do you mean by condition?


To condition an area means to remove the old, moist, disagreeable air and replace it with new, dry, comfortable air. It means heating in the winter and cooling in the summer.


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## naptown CR (Feb 20, 2009)

Virginia Built said:


> AROUND HERE A 430 SQ FT SLAB IS GOIN FOR 8 DOLLARS A SQUARE FOOT< THATS $3420 ADD ANOTHER GRAND IF YOU NEED A PUMP> THATS GONNA HURT IF YOU DIDNT EVEN FIGURE ENOUGH TO PAY THE MATERIAL BILL...:w00t:





jtpro said:


> Most people are when the posting in this thread becomes similar to other threads.
> 
> Good thing breathalyzers aren't required to post on CT. It reminds some of us why we quit drinking and hanging out with those that do!:laughing:





ARI001 said:


> Yeah, I don't know who he's using but that is high who ever it is.


that includes gravel mesh and slab prep and is about what it is going for around DC last time I had one done.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

naptown CR said:


> that includes gravel mesh and slab prep and is about what it is going for around DC last time I had one done.


It's a tad bit higher than what it runs in my area, but it's danm sure closer than the cool grand+50 Tim Carter quoted.


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## ARI001 (Jun 16, 2009)

naptown CR said:


> that includes gravel mesh and slab prep and is about what it is going for around DC last time I had one done.


Maryland & DC are usually higher. Last one I did ran about $6.50 a sqft gravel/ wire mesh/ vapor barrier/ placed and finished.


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

After reading my original first handful of posts, it seems I really did have a bug up my a$$ about this whole thing. Maybe I still do. Neo, sorry if I was a bit snappy with you or anyone else. My beef was and still sort of is with Tim Carter, not you or any of the rest of the fellows.

Carpentershane, I'm also wondering who is more evil, Tim Carter or Bobby Powers... Why don't you Ask The Builder ?


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## carpentershane (Feb 9, 2009)

It is apparent that you are ignorant of the evil and widespread influence of one Bobby Powers, recent resident of IN, otherwise you would not be asking that question. 

And you still have not answered my original question:

WHO IS TIM CARTER?

Until your post yesterday I had never heard of him and personally I think you seem to be a little obsessed with what he thinks/says/conjectures/:laughing:

Like I said, I read the entire thread, and I did not exactly get why you were so dead set on proving the guy wrong. I am sure the HO found out rather soon if his estimate was way off and I imagine their builder was able to give them a firm quote on what the cost difference would be thus rendering Tim Carter's advice null and void.



I just had a frightening thought... What if Bobby Powers and Tim Carter joined forces... What a world fraught with terror that would be
No one would be safe...


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

I've tried Google, and now I know
about Tim Carter, but can't figure out
what any of those Bobby Powers
have to do with anything here?


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## OGStilts (Aug 30, 2007)

neolitic said:


> I've tried Google, and now I know
> about Tim Carter, but can't figure out
> what any of those Bobby Powers
> have to do with anything here?


Neo,

It's a joke in reference to this train wreck

http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/could-considered-slander-defamation-61215/


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

OGStilts said:


> Neo,
> 
> It's a joke in reference to this train wreck
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/could-considered-slander-defamation-61215/


Aaaah, and I thought I was guilty
of making obscure references! :laughing:
(I am hereby freed of any such future feeling)
I thought he was another of those 
TV guys I don't know.


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## wellbuilthome (Feb 5, 2008)

. I build additions all the time . A 20x20 x 7'6 ceiling height cost me 4000 bucks lite & switch is included with 2 circuits for future electric 
+ digging 1200 + gravel base for slab 300 opening for basement 650 and drain pipe 150 2 windows 300 . 7000 +30% OH & profit 
A crawl space cost around 4000 total . 
The difference is 3000 bucks My mason pours a full basement 8" thick. The crawl space foundations My guys build out of block. 
I dig the jobs my self but charge accordingly 1200 a day for EX and skid . 
Trucking is extra 100 bucks a load . 
I don't grow grass but will drop Top soil for the HO. 
Small basements are a pain in the azz and i don't push them , but that's what i charge . John


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## Hoof Hearted (Aug 9, 2009)

wellbuilthome said:


> . I build additions all the time . A 20x20 x 7'6 ceiling height cost me 4000 bucks lite & switch is included with 2 circuits for future electric
> + digging 1200 + gravel base for slab 300 opening for basement 650 and drain pipe 150 2 windows 300 . 7000 +30% OH & profit
> A crawl space cost around 4000 total .
> The difference is 3000 bucks My mason pours a full basement 8" thick. The crawl space foundations My guys build out of block.
> ...


John, 
Would you mind elaborating your prices a little better?
Your numbers are a bit confusing and don't seem to be adding up.
Thanks.


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## wellbuilthome (Feb 5, 2008)

Hoof Hearted said:


> John,
> Would you mind elaborating your prices a little better?
> Your numbers are a bit confusing and don't seem to be adding up.
> Thanks.


 Total basement price before mark up 7000 +- 
I have a concrete company pour the walls and slab for around 4000 +- I do the rest of the work in house & supply every thing but the concrete and steel . 

For a crawl space we pour a thick footing16 "x 30" +- then around 5' of block work , parge and water proof 2" rat slab and plastic vapor barrier total crawl space price before markup is 4000 +- 
my mark up is different for sub work then my crew , machine work is flat fee by the job or by the day. 
The basement takes a extra few days for drying before the forms get pulled . A crawl space we can start framing the next day. 
A 20x20 crawl space doesn't have much labor in it . If i start early, I can dig it, inspect it, pour it .and be blocked up by 600 and framing the next day . John


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