# Legitamate Contractors Can't Compete with Illegal Labor



## BKFranks (Feb 19, 2008)

Negotiating his work fee in a small Huntington Beach home in the 1980s, Scott Powelson suspected he would one day be replaced by workers from south of the border.









Scott Powelson, 59, of Costa Mesa has been in the flooring business since the late 70's and used to make a comfortable living doing so. However, the industry began to change for him in the mid-90s after, he said, he could no longer compete with the low bids offered by contractors who hired illegal workers. He's six months behind on his rent and is thinking of moving to Arizona

"Well you know, I can get this guy to do this for way cheaper," the homeowner told him at the time.

The woman told Powelson his competition spoke Spanish but very little English. While she couldn't quite comprehend everything the other man said, she understood the price.
Powelson, who had just given the homeowner his best bid to install ceramic tile, passed on the job. He would have had to take a 20 percent cut to match the price.

"I couldn't compete," the 59-year-old from Costa Mesa recalled on a recent weekday at a local diner where the food is cheap and plentiful.
"I realized flat out that I couldn't compete with these guys in ceramic tile, eventually they'd move into my field of expertise," he said. "I saw it coming way back. ... I started realizing that I'm bidding against these guys who come in from Mexico ... illegally."

Powelson, who has labored in the hardwood flooring business for 30 years, said he is now feeling the full force of what he predicted decades ago.

Rest of the story here:
http://www.ocregister.com/news/powelson-282632-work-way.html


----------



## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

I especially like the part about "he's six months behind on his rent and* is thinking about moving to Arizona*".

Yeah- because there's no illegals in Arizona......lol. I guess he thinks that little law they past last year cleared them all out, huh??


----------



## W-Tinc (Feb 15, 2008)

Funny thing happened when I moved to Michigan last year...

There are few illegals here, which is great for my blood pressure after being around the hordes of them in the south for over a decade. 

But..the economy is so bad people seem happy to work for about the same wages people are paying illegals in other parts of the country!

I know its the rust belt..but I have never seen so many people so happy to work for so little..its been a very eye opening year:sad:

What is this guy thinking at his age saying he is unwilling to switch professions, and what has he been thinking about the last 15 years to not make suitable changes or put some money away? Crazy


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

It's true. A legitimate contractor cannot compete with either an illegal or in a broader sence, the underground contractor.

I heard somewhere that they think 50% of all reno work being done is by underground contractors.

This has been discussed a lot. Only thing you can do is report these guys to the appropriate authority.

What else can we do? If the HO doesn't care about the risk they are taking, what else is there we can do?


----------



## THINKPAINTING (Feb 24, 2007)

Dont even get me going on this subject I Vote, and I will never give up but its a huge problem everywhere granted some states worse than others. Try going to any other country in the world and do what illegals can do here.


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

It's not just the illegals. Today I ran across a so called "remodeling contractor" and I couldn't believe it. He drove a smashed up car and looked like he was on drugs....my guess is he has no insurance. I'm told he is slammed with work and has been for a couple years. He asked me do do his plumbing and I said no thanks. After looking at his work today I can't imagine how people would hire this cat. I talked to the HO's and they are happy as clams. The fact is they know they are saving money so they are willing to live with what they get.

Guys like this are no different than illegals. Construction is being invaded by anybody looking to get out of a $10 an hour job...it's everywhere.

Mike


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> It's not just the illegals. Today I ran across a so called "remodeling contractor" and I couldn't believe it. He drove a smashed up car and looked like he was on drugs....my guess is he has no insurance. I'm told he is slammed with work and has been for a couple years. He asked me do do his plumbing and I said no thanks. After looking at his work today I can't imagine how people would hire this cat. I talked to the HO's and they are happy as clams. The fact is they know they are saving money so they are willing to live with what they get.
> 
> Guys like this are no different than illegals. Construction is being invaded by anybody looking to get out of a $10 an hour job...it's everywhere.
> 
> Mike


I have a few ideas of who that could be ....


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I have a few ideas of who that could be ....


Dude, I just moved to your area. What the fu## is going on around here? I've never seen so many bad contractors in my whole life. It's as if everybody in Waukesha went out and bought a hammer and a tool pouch.

It's been a little rough for me here.:laughing: I was a God in my old place now I'm just a schmuck. I'm gonna have to start underbidding pretty soon.:laughing:

Mike


----------



## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

I try to educate my customers on what a QUALITY job involves. I think contractors who hire illegals should be fined.repeated violations suspend revoke licenses. Illegals should be deported. just my opinion


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Dude, I just moved to your area. What the fu## is going on around here? I've never seen so many bad contractors in my whole life. It's as if everybody in Waukesha went out and bought a hammer and a tool pouch.
> 
> It's been a little rough for me here.:laughing: I was a God in my old place now I'm just a schmuck. I'm gonna have to start underbidding pretty soon.:laughing:
> 
> Mike


Oh and it doesn't get much better. There are very few guys I've met that I trust to do quality work. 

Most dont even buy a tool belt; they get the free home depot apron.


----------



## MasterBuilt (Dec 17, 2010)

> they get the free home depot apron


I didnt know they gave those out for free, I have to get me one!


----------



## THINKPAINTING (Feb 24, 2007)

Yes there are allot of hacks but illegals are overwhelmingly the culprits. They have destroyed most of the hardwood floor market here for guys who do install and refinishing and there work is horrible!!!!!

First thing the new Governor of my sate did is rescind the E-verify order to make sure legal workers are hired  He said checking to make sure someone is here legally might hurt there feelings:sad: but he has no problem rasing taxes , fee's and stating over and over business's shold be punished for not doing more to help people:w00t:


----------



## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

This [feeling of disgust re: illegals] may be one type of contractor association list that people would buy into. Contractors (who verifiably hire citizens) for now, but eventually HOs too. As it stands, Mike is right and most of the people I meet don't care about anything but the bottom line. But some are probably the same who rant about immigration laws on forums, and I personally would like to tell each and every one of them it's time to put up or shut up.

So anyway, the organization would launch a massive ad campaign highlighting the plight of the Scott Powelsons with beautifully done superbowl commercials, so we can get them right then when they're thinking about america. There would of course be a print ad campaign (well spotted poster angus) and it would be relentless. You wouldn't be able to search contractor on the internet without our name coming up (hi there angies list, we see you). You get the idea. Who's in? :clap:


----------



## jmiller (May 14, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Most dont even buy a tool belt; they get the free home depot apron.


Hey that's what I use arty: But it comes from the local supply.


----------



## nailit69 (Sep 8, 2010)

I don't use "illegals" but i'm around other subs who do use them from time to time and it seems to me that they're getting lazier by the day. The longer these guys are here and get used to life in amedica the less they want to do for that $8-10 bucks an hour. They're wanting more money for the work they're doing and I think it's just a matter of time before most aren't willing to bust thier a$$e$ for $60 or $80 a day.

Personally, I have gone from making $2000-$2500 a week to that much in 3 weeks, sometimes 4. Is it the influx of cheap labor or just a sign of the times?, I don't know for sure. As a cash strapped HO why would you want to pay three times as much for the same end product? Really, I can see why you'd hire cheap labor but at what cost? How long will Joe Legal be able to compete with a crew of Jose Illegals making what 1 or 2 guys used to make?

I recently bid a re-roof and cut it as close as I possibly could and was still beat out by another contractor by nearly $1,000... how can I compete with that. If I went out and hired a few guys willing to work for $100 a day I could of had that job but i'm not willing to do that. I have ALWAYS paid my guys very well and put thier pay ahead of mine and they bust thier a$$e$ for me.

This has been on my mind for the last 2 or 3 years and the way things are going it just makes me want to throw in the towel. More work for less money seems to be the trend and i'm not sure how much longer i'm willing to "give it away".

The worst part about it is the work they pass off is CRAP! I've seen some of the worst work ever that is passed off as "done". I'd have fired every damn one of the last bunch of "framers" I saw, worst work i've ever seen, EVER!!! Plumb cuts that weren't plumb, bird blocks that looked like they were cut w/an angry beaver, un nailed sheathing, sh!t slapped together at every turn, but hey the HO got a great deal.


----------



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Making "comfortable living" means that there was a substantial overhead in the "good ol' ways". It really isn't "expertise" when its easily replaced by someone with skill levels you'd expect from Labor-Ready. Before globalization where union presence had much more influence on artificially maintaining price, labor workers made easy living. 

They made comfortable living, because there wasn't much competition. Union basically maintained a type of price fixing that favored the workers. These people don't like competition legit or not and have a general tendency against foreign made products.

Companies have gotten wiser and instead of having to deal with union price fixing, they've started outsourcing as much as they can and have things customized or prefabricated overseas to minimize labor here. 

Merchants want to get more money for same work, or same money for less work.
Customers want to get more work for same money, or pay less money for same work.
These concepts haven't changed in centuries. Who doesn't?

Well, there will be those willing to compromise on both ends and that's competition. 

When unionized trade keeps prices artificially high, it creates that much more vacuum for "underground" contractors to come in and willing to do it for less, and I say "underground" because the licensing requirements are often designed and forced upon by unions as entry barrier to that trade and nothing more.

If you haven't noticed... I blame UNIONS for a ton of things.


----------



## Keeyter (Sep 18, 2010)

*TURN THEM IN
*I am not ashamed to say I do it all the time. I have seen the Feds go to jobsites, Department of Labor go to jobsites, and inspectors after I turn them in. When the HO has that mess on their hands they won't give out a good recommendation for that company and then need a legal contractor, thats you me, or you. 

And I have not problem telling a customer. When I ask, as I always do, did you or are you thinking about getting other bids. ..... Oh yeah who if I may ask. Then tell them straight out, yeah thats a good company they do good work as well or be careful they use illegal labor and sub contractors. Watch how fast they sign a contract with you. 

Writing your congressman and voting does nothing, and sometimes turning them in does nothing either, but its alot more gratifying.


----------



## FenceKing (Jan 3, 2011)

i do too. Washington has a "craigslist audit" department in L&I that just trys to catch people all day off CL posting ads. I know this because when I first started my goal was grab 3-4 fast jobs and scrape up the money to get a bond and lisc and stuff, well 2 ads into it they nailed me and before I called them back I went and got legal that day. here its easy and cheap theres no reason not too. 

and yes they hurt us all with their hack pricing  thats why all my ads are easy to spot, my signature pissed some people off and i dont care.



> *LICENSED BONDED AND INSURED, ACCEPT NOTHING LESS THAN HARD WORKERS THAT PAY TAXES INSTEAD OF CUT RATE ILLEGAL BACKYARD HACKS.
> 
> Beware, if someone doesn't have a contractors license then the law assumes they are your employee even if you are not a business, and if they get hurt in your yard, you can and WILL be sued! Its $126 so if they do not have one, there is a damn good reason!
> 
> REMEMBER ITS NOW HOW EASY THE JOB IS (LOW RISK), ITS HOW DESPERATE ARE THEY FOR INSURANCE MONEY!*


It makes me very happy when Mr.Illegal sees it and emails me all angry:thumbup:


----------



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

FenceKing said:


> i do too. Washington has a "craigslist audit" department in L&I that just trys to catch people all day off CL posting ads. I know this because when I first started my goal was grab 3-4 fast jobs and scrape up the money to get a bond and lisc and stuff


That's a sin equivalent to operating a shuttle in a clunker you bought without insurance until you can scrape up the money to pay off the tickets to enable renewing your license and paying insurance. They're basically doing the same thing as cops checking for license, insurance and registration... to protect other people from your actions. 

Keeyter, knocking down your competitor is no honest way to get business. It'll just end up in a pissing match. If you can dig dirt on them, they can dig dirt on you too. When one of your guys bump into someone in traffic, someone could come up with a photo one of your guys on the phone while driving or video of not coming to a complete stop. "That's the company that just sent a pregnant mom to the hospital. They have no regard for the law or the life of others. Their workers talk on the phone while driving(can be proven by photo), drive right through stop signs, cause accidents and hurt people)


----------



## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

FenceKing said:


> i do too. Washington has a "craigslist audit" department in L&I that just trys to catch people all day off CL posting ads. I know this because when I first started my goal was grab 3-4 fast jobs and scrape up the money to get a bond and lisc and stuff, well 2 ads into it they nailed me and before I called them back I went and got legal that day. here its easy and cheap theres no reason not too.
> 
> and yes they hurt us all with their hack pricing  thats why all my ads are easy to spot, my signature pissed some people off and i dont care.
> 
> ...


I'm on your side fence guy but keep in mind that not all states/cities/municipalities license contractors. Yet others do but simply collect a fee to get a piece of paper saying they are good to go. No qualifying needed except add to the govt coffers. 

How does the consumer/contractor deal with that?


----------



## skcolo (May 16, 2009)

olligator said:


> I wouldn't hold your breath about getting any honest elected officials any time soon. "Honest elected official" is the epitome of an oxymoronic phrase.
> 
> [rant size="medium" font="arial, helvetica" fontsize="10"]
> While the illegal issue is a very serious black hole for our tax dollars and jobs, many of the people that have cried about lost jobs have failed to adapt themselves to the changing conditions of our industry. In a simplistic sense, if what you're doing isn't making you the money you need (not want, but at least need), then you should get very serious about implementing the Marine Corps mantra of "improvise, adapt, overcome" or you will most certainly fail. Sometimes that means changing your business strategy, learning a new trade or skill, or even relocating to a place that has better business opportunities. When you and your family's a$$ is on the line, claiming that you can't do that or that it's too hard is bull**** and the only place to find blame for your situation is in the mirror.
> ...


I think you are missing my point. I am not one of those who thinks "they took our jobs". And I don't think there will ever be "honest" politicians. My comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. What I mean is that those who are angry are looking to business owners to blame, and the federal government is promoting illegal immigration, so business owners have no choice but to hire illegals in order to compete, in larger projects anyway. Otherwise, they won't ever be able to compete with those who do use illegals in the building trades. That is just reality, take it or leave it. There is not enough of a profit margin to do it any other way.

On top of it, when was the last time you saw an American hanging sheetrock, roofing, doing flatwork, or framing production housing? Not much would be my guess.

When I said that until we elect honest politicians nothing will change, what I really meant is that it is never going to change, so quit trying to punish business owners when the government has made it clear that illegals are welcome here.


----------



## carryon (Mar 21, 2012)

Seems to me there is an opportunity to fight bottom feeders with bottom feeders. What are the odds that contractors with illegals on the payroll are covering their bases with workman's comp? I would guess many/most just ignore the whole thing. Which makes homeowners/clients sitting ducks. At some point a slick contingency litigation lawyer should recognize that, in the absence of WC, each cracked head or busted limb (and there are probably many) is a chance to sue everyone in sight. Maybe someone needs to introduce the appropriate law firm to the opportunity. Fear of lawsuits is the presumed mode of compliance for most laws anyway.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Don't hire them, don't train them, thy wont take your jobs.


----------



## Clog Pro (Apr 2, 2012)

Up here it's not just non-citizens who are underpricing us, it's anyone who isn't running their operation under the constraints of the law; licensed, bonded, insured etc (like others have said). It's not fair for those of us who choose to run our businesses legally... I report illegal companies when I find them, but like others have said... it doesn't seem to help


----------



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Illegal operations that do not have the proper legally required license could be unfair. But then, so are arbitrary union non-sense that causes the price to be set by something other than market forces.

Prevailing wages in government contracts are basically legally mandated labor cost fixing scheme.


----------



## iDAHOchris (Feb 11, 2012)

skcolo said:


> I think you are missing my point. I am not one of those who thinks "they took our jobs". And I don't think there will ever be "honest" politicians. My comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. What I mean is that those who are angry are looking to business owners to blame, and the federal government is promoting illegal immigration, so business owners have no choice but to hire illegals in order to compete, in larger projects anyway. Otherwise, they won't ever be able to compete with those who do use illegals in the building trades. That is just reality, take it or leave it. There is not enough of a profit margin to do it any other way.
> 
> On top of it, when was the last time you saw an American hanging sheetrock, roofing, doing flatwork, or framing production housing? Not much would be my guess.
> 
> When I said that until we elect honest politicians nothing will change, what I really meant is that it is never going to change, so quit trying to punish business owners when the government has made it clear that illegals are welcome here.


 Here is some pics of the boys doind some taping,demo. Not racist but happen to have all whiteboys on my crew. We are definitly a minority but Im alright with that. Greed and laziness is the killer not illegals. Some people just get a lil carried away and try and be the bigdog too much. There is enough work to go around for skilled workers,problem is shortage of skilled guys so ...


----------

