# 2nd Layer of Plywood Over Original Shingles



## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

I posted about this job once before, but a home inspector on another site just ran into a similar situation for his first time and I was wondering how often do you run into such extreme nonsense.

Ed



   This is how far the entire side of the rafters got knocked down and cracked on an entire side.


   

   




This is a photo of a job we did last November.

1 layer of shingles on top of plywood sheathing, right?

No. Under that sheathing was a 2 layer shingle roof on top of the original decking, which was covered up by the gutter apron drip edge metal in the areas we set up the ladder to do our inspection and base our estimate on.

This was for an insurance damage claim, where a large2-3 foot diameter tree fell on the house and the detached garage.

The insurance company, Allstate, although kept informed of the additional work required that was hidded, is not allowing the extra charges to be paid to the home owners, who were counting on full replacement cost coverage, minus their deductible.

I even created a forum, just to be able to keep the adjuster informed of every photo of job progress on a daily basis and he agreed verbally that the additional work needed to be done.

If you want to see about 200 more photos, follow this link:
http://rightwayroofing.freeforums.or...1-8-07-t2.html

Ed


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

So... the HO never got compensated for the extra work? Did they sue? How did it all turn out? They got stiffed?


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

yes i have encountered that mess at least 4 times .


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## Bill (Mar 30, 2006)

never have myself. But we done one where there was 6 layers of shingles and the HO wanted an overlay. Told them get someone else to do it


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Saw one being torn off in a vacant house I was rewiring. Original wood shakes with tin on top, plywood on top of that, and two layers of asphalt shingles. The attic had "props" all over the place helping the rafters.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Never ran across it, big job, looks like you replaced a great deal of lumber, I like the brickwork on the chimney.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Never ran into it yet,
but I've seen a lot of the old "barns"
in town where they are nailing OSB
right over top of gawd knows what all.
Have seen a lot more where there is 
a pile of shingles, a pile of OSB, 
and no dumpster or trailer in sight. :whistling


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## BULLHART (Oct 14, 2006)

Holy smokes. Never saw that one.


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

Ran into that twice and both times ended up having to do major structural work underneath, just like yours there. One of the bldgs at my BIL's shop also has it right now but he's demo'ing the whole bldg so we're not worried about it. Pretty pathetic what some ppl come up with eh.


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## pgriz (Sep 29, 2003)

We've seen this. A local competitor "never" strips the old roof when installing a new metal roof, and we've pointed out to prospects that I&W will not stick to the old roof. So now they install 3/8 plywood over the top of whatever crap is in place, so that the owner sees a "new" roof, and they can stick the I&W along the eaves and valleys and have it work. By my reading of the code, the plywood counts as an additional layer, so this approach blows the 2-layer maximum rule out the window. I'm not even sure the homeowners know that this is going on, since most leave for work in the morning, and see new plywood that evening... Although I would think that the absence of a dumpster would be a clue.:blink:


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

I've seen it twice. Once when I bid the job, but I didn't get it. The home owner said I was the only one who brought it up and since my price was higher, I could tell in her voice she thought I was taking advantage of her. When in reality I was the only one professional enough to either catch it on the inspection or who wasn't planning on submitting a change order later on.

The second time I saw it, it was under some modified used in an area to build up roof pitch. I cored the roof but didn't core that area. Glad it was only a couple squares. We didn't put it back, didn't need to. I don't know why they diverted water AWAY from the drain in the first place.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

I know which competitor you are talking about. Why do you think they refuse to tear off? I mean it's almost as much work to resheet a whole roof as it is to strip off a whole roof.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Grumpy said:


> I know which competitor you are talking about. Why do you think they refuse to tear off? I mean it's almost as much work to resheet a whole roof as it is to strip off a whole roof.


I agree. It is almost cheaper to have them tore off. I think this is a good reason why the metal guys went to metal. The selling point to them and the HO is that they don't have to tear off. Look at Decra. I think it's just trouble waiting to happen.


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## Stewy (Nov 11, 2007)

I saw one job where they put down a layer of foam insulation then plywood and new shingles all over the existing roofing.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Stewy said:


> I saw one job where they put down a layer of foam insulation then plywood and new shingles all over the existing roofing.


I have done that twice myself.

Both jobs were tile roof installations on Romono's Macaroni Grill Restaurants.

2.5" Isocyanurate Insulation screwed down with metal plates and 1/2" OSB screwed down on top of it, before we installed the batten strips for the S Tile from Monier.

Ed


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## pgriz (Sep 29, 2003)

It didn't make sense to me either - at first. But then I got to thinking... You strip the roof, and often you find a little wood rot here, a few uneven deck boards there, and now you're doing some remedial carpentry just to make sure the resulting deck is clean, even and solid. Now if you're in a real hurry, you can slap the 3/8 plywood down easily and don't bother with careful cutting at the eaves and gables - that's what circular saws are for! Personally, 3/8 isn't going to hold nails very well, but the guys in a hurry don't really care as they are not being paid for longevity after 20 years, but for gittin' it on as fast as possible. Gaps and dips are all covered up and the end result looks good. Same kind of thinking that got horse thieves juicing up the old nags they stole.

Although.... recently we came across a steel roof covering an asphalt roof. When we stripped, we found that the asphalt was laid over cedar shingles. At that moment, I was sorely tempted to go the "oversheet" route. But.. we did it the right way and the owner covered some of the extra work.:clap:


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Those 2 restaurants I was speaking about were both new construction and that was the spec I was adhering to from the blueprints.

Ed


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## innovous (May 26, 2007)

We have seen this a few times - and new decking over old layers and old decking caused structural damage. The rafter/truss system usually is not designed to carry such a load. On one, we had to do some major shoring and even out the rafters to take out the 'waves'.

Do the metal guys that do only overlays pay for the structural engineer to verify the new load?

Any update on whether the HO was compensated by Allstate?


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

No, I have a "friendly" lawsuit against the home owners so that they can sue Allstate. I can't sue Allstate directly, since the home owners are their contracted party, or so I was told.

I think that there should have been a method for me to go direct, but I listen to my lawyer and accept his opinion as more valid than mine.

Ed


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## tahoeroofer (Jul 27, 2008)

*Rumor has it.*

Maybe shingles came attach with plywood included. Heard you could get those at the roofing junkyard.:thumbup:


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

How much do you guys charge to replace roof rafters. Like 7 or 8 or 9 dollars per linear foot? Or am i way off?


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## Nail banger (Oct 8, 2007)

Time and materials all the way


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

I have $ 6.00 to $ 7.00 dollars per foot, depending on if they are 2" s 4"s or 2" x 6"s, written right in the contract, which I think is a reasonable fee, but Allstate has some calculation that pays around .28 cents per "Square Foot" listed on their line item.

How do you charge and replace raftrers based on a square footage of the decking? 

I guess if you determine wheter or not it is 16" OC or 24" OC it can be a guide, but that does not incluse any notching, tapering, compound mitering or whatever, especially when all of the rafters were from the apex of the hip to ridge intersection and all needed to be pulled and replaced, either due to being bumped down and cracked or totally sheared from the tree falling down on the structure.

Ed


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## gusthehonky (May 1, 2008)

That wins the prize for WTF! Was that a total of 4 crappy jobs in one sorry pile? I have run into 3-4 layers, funny looking channels made from anything around, vinyl siding, sheet metal, HVAC ducts, etc. Tarps, top nailed were always a site to behold. Large sections coated with thick and sloppy layers of either black or clear sealants (brand names omitted). The usual examples of fine workmanship most often put on display around chimneys, gutters and valleys are minor imperfections compared to yours. 
In my early 20's I did some work for a company that had 3-4 crews out on different jobs which is considered on the large side in my area. stereotypical roofing co. But, they would take any job, do it fast, and do acceptable work, not the best but not bad. 3rd floor walk-up in the heart of the ghetto were very common, sometimes 2 crews on the same block. These roofs usually had the most hacked up and screwed up quick fixes. Was this true in your example. Rentals are often screwed up, rentals in ghettos are the worst. 
Those days are long gone, now usually single family owned houses in quiet residential neighborhoods. 2 layers and minor skylight or vent pipes create the typical snags. At worst we find cedar on some older homes, strip, de-nail, and ply to cover gaps is not a major project, the time lost, filth involved are not as bad as telling the owner to buck up.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

gusthehonky said:


> That wins the prize for WTF! Was that a total of 4 crappy jobs in one sorry pile?
> 
> *Was this true in your example.* Rentals are often screwed up, rentals in ghettos are the worst.


No, this is due to poor permitting enforcement and a lot of hacks doing weekend jobs under the radar.

This community was developed in the mid-50's way prior to building code enforcement, or I should say, whatever the developer decided to do was how it went.

This is the worst of them that I ran into, but I have run into 3 others with plywood over the old roof, but a tree did not happen to fall on the structure dislodging or cracking all of the hip and jack rafters.

Ed


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## gusthehonky (May 1, 2008)

How about all the framing required, this would cause us big trouble insurance wise, were engineers required to obtain necessary permits? A surprise like this must be very unwelcome and costly to all involved.


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## innovous (May 26, 2007)

Well, I have another one now. The house was built in 1920's, a few additions, and there are actually two layers of shake, then sheathing, then two layers 3 tab. The two layers of shake must have been done on an earlier addition because on a newer addition you can see the concealed double shake layers through the overframe.

These people purchased the house just over a year ago, and their inspection (prior to purchase) mentions nothing. Amazing.


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