# Plywood or OSB



## pburchett (Sep 28, 2005)

Trying to build a new house, but having trouble getting materials. Local lumber yards do not have enough OSB to cover the outside of the house, but I did find one that had enough ½ inch, 5 layer, plywood. The house will then be wrapped in Tyvek (58 perm) or Typar (12 perm) not sure which one to use and then bricked. Will the climate in Kentucky be too humid for the 12 perm wrap? Any pros or cons on the ply wood, OSB or the house wraps?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Plywood for the roof definetly. Around here you see a mix of plywood and OSB on the walls but mostly plywood.


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## old27 (Feb 13, 2005)

plywood all the way.


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## wbsbadboy (Oct 3, 2005)

Sorry guys gotta disagree with you on the plywood. I used to use 1/2 inch ply for my roof sheeting and am still getting callbacks on a few homes. Since I started using OSB my call backs have dropped to zero. As for shear panels plyboard is easier to work with and its cheaper here in So. Cal. Unfortunatly most engineers are specifying OSB for shear. 
FYI Simpson Strong Tie will guarentee a roof if you install their "PC" clips As specifyed in their catalog/manual. Good cheap insurance if you ask me.


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

Call me old-fashioned but I use 1/2" plywood wall sheathing and 5/8" plywood roof sheathing with #30 asphalt saturated felt underlayment. It might not be perfect but I believe it creates fewer problems than OSB with housewrap. 
I don't believe 1/2" OSB or plywood provides an adequate nail base on a roof.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

mighty anvil said:


> Call me old-fashioned but I use 1/2" plywood wall sheathing and 5/8" plywood roof sheathing with #30 asphalt saturated felt underlayment. It might not be perfect but I believe it creates fewer problems than OSB with housewrap.
> I don't believe 1/2" OSB or plywood provides an adequate nail base on a roof.


Couldn't agree more, - - on all points. :Thumbs:


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## pburchett (Sep 28, 2005)

Looked at the so called 5 layer ply wood and it was only 3 layers, and flimsey. Would this be better than the 1/2 OSB on the walls. 

I will be using 1x12's on the roof. 

Still can not get a n answer fron Typar on their house wrap...


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm not putting oversized particleboard on my jobs.


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

Typar isn't any better than Tyvek if you must use a housewrap.

Regarding OSB vs plywood look at this discussion:
http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?t=2847


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## Blderman (Nov 6, 2005)

Personally, I would stay away from Tyvek or Typar. Both of them have casued major issues here in Oregon. In fact I work very closely with the largest waterproofing contrator west of the Mississippi and they will not guarantee any of their work if Tyvek is to be used on the building. Everyone out here is going back to Aspahltic building paper and kraft faced insulation and why not, it worked without fail for the past 70 years. Try Super Jumbo Tex 60 min paper..... works great.


Jason


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

And exactly why I try to avoid all the 'marketing-hype' of these newfangled materials, - - just because you hear 10,000 times a 'great' it is, - - doesn't make it so.

The 'test-of-time' never lies!!

OSB, for one, is a joke, at best, always has been (they should at least throw in some 'sympathy' cards), - - but what really scares me these days is the new ACQ 'treated' wood. That stuff is gonna' be a problem.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Tom R said:


> but what really scares me these days is the new ACQ 'treated' wood. That stuff is gonna' be a problem.



What use z-max rated steeland or double hot dipped galvanized nails and nervastral any metal in contact with ACQ that isn't 3/4" or thicker. 

Or am I missing something?


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

JustaFramer,

When I nail my joists into the ACQ sills, I use ACQ rated nails. When you frame, do you use ACQ rated nails to shoot your joists into the ACQ sills?

Joe Carola


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Yep double hot dipped galvanized framing nails and z-max galvanized steel that is what is required by the Building dept. Building Inspectors check for dhdg nails when the crawler is inspected. Square Washers are z-max or dhdg all jbolts are 3/4" or bigger. 

DHDG nails are like 100 dollars a box.


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

JustaFramer,

Do you also use ACQ rated nails to nail the ACQ sills down?

Joe Carola


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

JustaFramer said:


> What use z-max rated steeland or double hot dipped galvanized nails and nervastral any metal in contact with ACQ that isn't 3/4" or thicker.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


Yes, - - Simpson has already 'relieved' themselves of any liability associated with Z-max fasteners, - - they can already see the 'writing' on the wall, - - they've already started to fail, - - use an 'isolation' membrane in-between hangars and joists, - - use copper flashings, - - and use an absolute minimum of 1/2" thickness for any bolts, - - and yeah, ACQ nails and 'rated' screws. If you're attaching composites to ACQ framing, - - and using regular 'coated' deck-screws, - - the sheer density of the composite will strip the coating off the screws, - - then they will fail in the ACQ.

Then stop answerin' your phone, - - 'cuz within a few years we'll all be gettin' sued!!


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

You talking about on a slab. Haven't done a slab in awhile. ACQ sill's are bolted down to the foundation with 3/4" j bolts and z-max hot dipped plate washers. All nail fasteners to be double hot dipped or equivalent. All with in the requirements of the building department.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Tom R said:


> Yes, - - Simpson has already 'relieved' themselves of any liability associated with Z-max fasteners, - - they can already see the 'writing' on the wall, - - they've already started to fail, - - use an 'isolation' membrane in-between hangars and joists, - - use copper flashings, - - and use an absolute minimum of 1/2" thickness for any bolts, - - and yeah, ACQ nails and 'rated' screws. If you're attaching composites to ACQ framing, - - and using regular 'coated' deck-screws, - - the sheer density of the composite will strip the coating off the screws, - - then they will fail in the ACQ.
> 
> Then stop answerin' your phone, - - 'cuz within a few years we'll all be gettin' sued!!



You have a link to the Simpson/ z-max debacle? This is interesting. As I just read the spec for z-max last summer that simpson published. That is what the building dept was basing their theory on. I think I will be wrapping the ACQ lumber in nervastral. 

That could be scary stuff for fasteners and hardware to fail because


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

JustaFramer said:


> You have a link to the Simpson/ z-max debacle? This is interesting. As I just read the spec for z-max last summer that simpson published. That is what the building dept was basing their theory on. I think I will be wrapping the ACQ lumber in nervastral.
> 
> That could be scary stuff for fasteners and hardware to fail because


No, sorry, don't have the link, - - just remember reading all the horrid details (JLC maybe??), - - I'll try to find somethin' on it.

But for your own sake, - - do use extra pre-cautions, - - I foresee a real nightmare down the road.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Here's what a quick search turns up, - - read where it says 'please note' on the right of your screen, - - and where it says 'outdoor applications and corrosion' near the bottom (as if we ever build decks 'indoor') :cheesygri 

www.strongtie.com/ftp/fliers/F-PTZMAX05.pdf


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

JustaFramer said:


> You talking about on a slab. Haven't done a slab in awhile. ACQ sill's are bolted down to the foundation with 3/4" j bolts and z-max hot dipped plate washers. All nail fasteners to be double hot dipped or equivalent. All with in the requirements of the building department.


No, not a slab but I use ACQ rated nails for thaose also. I'm talking about on top of a foundation. We use J-bolts but we also nail them in with ACQ arated nails.

You'd be surprised how many guys I've talked to who don't use ACQ rated nails for the sills and nailing down the joists. I doubt the inspectors are looking for it also. I've mentioned it to Architects before and told them that they should spec it on the plans now to us the proper nails for this ACQ garbage and I haven't seen one set of plans with it on there. Some of the lumber yard stell me that I'm the only framer who has asked for ACQ rated nails for the sill and nailing the joists into the sills.

Joe Carola

Joe Carola


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

They call for hot dipped galvanized I use double hot dipped. Hope that helps out with double the zinc.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

JustaFramer said:


> They call for hot dipped galvanized I use double hot dipped. Hope that helps out with double the zinc.


It helps 'delay' (what even they're admitting is) THE INEVITABLE!!


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Joe Carola said:


> No, not a slab but I use ACQ rated nails for thaose also. I'm talking about on top of a foundation. We use J-bolts but we also nail them in with ACQ arated nails.
> 
> You'd be surprised how many guys I've talked to who don't use ACQ rated nails for the sills and nailing down the joists. I doubt the inspectors are looking for it also. I've mentioned it to Architects before and told them that they should spec it on the plans now to us the proper nails for this ACQ garbage and I haven't seen one set of plans with it on there. Some of the lumber yard stell me that I'm the only framer who has asked for ACQ rated nails for the sill and nailing the joists into the sills.
> 
> ...


Our bolts are spaced from every foot to four feet. Depending on the shear of the first story walls. 4 feet oc is getting rarer ever house which is a 6 and 12 nail pattern on the wall. Have never nailed the sills down to the stem walls. Never seen it spec'd on the print to do so.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Tom R said:


> It helps 'delay' (what even they're admitting is) THE INEVITABLE!!


There is the moisture factor to contend with. I don't think I will be doing any decks anytime soon.


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## Donedat (Aug 13, 2005)

Here is a web page describing ACQ lumber and appropriate fasteners http://www.sutherlands.com/acq.htm


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Donedat said:


> Here is a web page describing ACQ lumber and appropriate fasteners http://www.sutherlands.com/acq.htm


Thanks, Donedat, - - that 'precedes' the link I went to, - - but what I'm pointing out here is that they've since changed the definition of 'appropriate'!!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Simpson tells you to choose your hangers based on the ACQ content of the lumber, ground contact ACQ requires SS, everything else is Zmax.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Yes, - - but they also originally said they're fasteners would 'work', - - now they've changed it to they'll 'help'.

They make clear they haven't been 'time-tested' to anyone's satisfaction, - - especially their own.


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## Donedat (Aug 13, 2005)

Ok, I'm already getting dizzy. Time to kick back for a snooze.  :yawn: 

Really, I'm glad you guys are talking about this. I'll be building my own house soon and was not aware of the change in treated lumber.


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## kenvest (Sep 27, 2005)

soooo, how long has the ACQ lumber been on the market place. 

i remember hearing about a change in the pressure treating process last summer (maybe?) but they must have made a seamless transition in supply because we haven't experienced any change in inventory or product that i can tell.

how can we tell what we're working with?

is the older style wood still being produced and marketed?

is this change in pressure treating a government mandate and if so, when is/was it supposed to be universally in effect?

interesting stuff...i appreciate having access to this info! :help: 

thanks! :thumbup:


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

This will get you started, note the date of publication.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

kenvest said:


> soooo, how long has the ACQ lumber been on the market place.
> 
> i remember hearing about a change in the pressure treating process last summer (maybe?) but they must have made a seamless transition in supply because we haven't experienced any change in inventory or product that i can tell.
> 
> ...


It was rolled out where I am completly in the spring of last year, but summer there was no CCA to be found. I haven't seen any CCA since.

You can tell what it is by the sticker stapled to the butt of each piece of wood. It says ACQ on it. Yes it was mandated by the gov, the EPA I believe, brought on mostly because kids were supposed to be getting sick from PT playgrounds.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

kenvest said:


> soooo, how long has the ACQ lumber been on the market place.
> 
> i remember hearing about a change in the pressure treating process last summer (maybe?) but they must have made a seamless transition in supply because we haven't experienced any change in inventory or product that i can tell.
> 
> ...


Ken, - - off the top of my head the transition started about I'd say 2 years ago, - - just look for the ACQ tag on the end of the board.

CCA isn't 'allowed' to be produced anymore, - - but there may still be some old stock available in some places, - - though I doubt it at this point in time.

Yes, government mandate, - - and I believe it went into effect about 2003, - - but the 'stockpiles' of CCA are allowed to be sold out.

There are also one or two other kinds of PT wood available, - - but I haven't seen them up my way, - - it's probably region-specific.

Hope this helps, - - and is not too long-winded!! :cheesygri Just kiddin'.


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

The EPA never found enough evidence to ban CCA but the issue got so much press that the pressure treated wood industry realized they would have to do something about it sooner rather than later. The voluntary industry ban on production of CCA and delivery of wood treated with it to retail outlets for residential use began on January 1, 2004. Retail outlets were allowed to sell their remaining stock. 

Here is some good information:

http://www.ufpi.com/product/ptlumber/fasteners.htm

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/changes_pressuretreated_wood.pdf

http://www.metalera.com/ACQwood.asp

Interesting anecdote about a CCA treated wood deck:
... Jan Notter, a Blacksburg resident ... in 1999 was diagnosed with arsenic poisoning later traced to the hours she and her husband spent scrubbing their deck with bleach, a process they learned helped bring arsenic to the surface. Notter, a nurse practitioner, said ... that she had to quit her job with the health department because of nerve damage in her hands and feet. "It feels like hot coals, sometimes a hot knife," she said ...


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

I used to feel the same way about O.S.B. as some of you guys. However with the crap they are selling as 15/32's plywood I have gone to o.s.b. It resist moisture in a far superior manner. It is stronger to walkk on and less slippery if you put the proper side up.
Just use the H clips on roofs.
I hated the stuff for years and called it particle board crap....Just goes to show the old dogs can be wrong? At least I am convinced I was


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

The H clips are only needed for 1/2" or 7/16" plywood sheathing on 24" o.c. framing which does not provide an adequate nailing base for asphalt shingles in my opinion. I would use 5/8" on 16" o.c. framing and skip the clips.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

mighty anvil said:


> The H clips are only needed for 1/2" roof sheathing which does not provide an adequate nailing base for asphalt shingles in my opinion. I would use 5/8" and skip the clips.


All the inspectors here require them. Mainly to eliminate swelleing at the edges that becomes noticeable. I have seen many not use them like the house next door. Sun hits right you see every ouline of plywood through the shingles.


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

Inspectors require you to use H clips on 5/8" sheathing with 16" o.c. framing? I've never seen swelling of plywood roof sheathing edges if the roof is protected and it should return to normal when it is dry. What grade of plywood are you using? I've never seen the outline of roof sheathing on a roof in New England — we build for snow here. I have had buildiers use 3/4" plywood even when I specified 5/8".


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## kenvest (Sep 27, 2005)

thanks for the info!!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

mighty anvil said:


> Inspectors require you to use H clips on 5/8" sheathing with 16" o.c. framing?


 No 1/2" with 16"
I have never used 5/8" in Texas. Have run into lap and gap roofs....Gotta go vote...Adios


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

I would recommend going to 5/8" CDX plywood for a reasonable additional cost, avoid the edge swelling problems of OSB (especially at cut edges), get a far better constructed 5 ply panel, and increase the nail pullout strength by 50%.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

mighty anvil said:


> I would recommend going to 5/8" CDX plywood for a reasonable additional cost, avoid the edge swelling problems of OSB (especially at cut edges), get a far better constructed 5 ply panel, and increase the nail pullout strength by 50%.


In a market where people only care what it looks like it would be hard to sell the 5/8" ply. I grew up in Mass. and am familiar with building concepts. Here in Texas many people are transient and only care about quick turnaround...

Believe me the plywood does swell without h clips (and llkely with) here in Texas. Attic temps can be very warm and moist. 

BTW They're are customers that care about quality...just few and far between!:help:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

mighty anvil said:


> I would recommend going to 5/8" CDX plywood for a reasonable additional cost, avoid the edge swelling problems of OSB (especially at cut edges), get a far better constructed 5 ply panel, and increase the nail pullout strength by 50%.



I agree OSB on the roof is crap. Many times I don't do the take off so I am stuck with OSB. I gap every seem the width on a 16 penny or more. 

Nothing like rebuilding a wavy wall in place.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> I agree OSB on the roof is crap. Many times I don't do the take off so I am stuck with OSB. I gap every seem the width on a 16 penny or more.
> 
> Nothing like rebuilding a wavy wall in place.


I have never seen waves in even 1/2" o.s.b.? Now 1/2" plywood will have waves out the you know what. 

Me thinks you can't teach old dogs new tricks:jester: 

I built my sons skateboard ramp with it and it sits out in the weather all day and after 4 months has been fine. Show me a ply (even treated) that can do that. Walk on o.s.b. 16" centers and then 15/32's and see which moves the most... Gentleman, just admit you are purist and trapped in the last century 
Don't preach 5/8" in an area where no one in the world uses it. It may be common where you are but a lot of us aren't there. :biggrin:


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

copusbuilder said:


> I have never seen waves in even 1/2" o.s.b.? Now 1/2" plywood will have waves out the you know what.
> 
> Me thinks you can't teach old dogs new tricks:jester:
> 
> ...


I started framing 22 years ago and all we ever used was 1/2" cdx fir on the roof with no waves, we never use osb on a roof. We never had problems with 1/2" and then about 18 years ago they started specking 5/8" on the roof, so we use 5/8". I still get some plans that call for 1/2" but we always use 5/8".

We used to use 1/2" subfloor and then oak would sit right on top of that. Where ever there was carpet we would go back and install 1/2" underlayment. Now it's just 3/4": T&G glued and that's it. Oak and carpet go right on top of that.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Joe Carola said:


> I started framing 22 years ago and all we ever used was 1/2" cdx fir on the roof with no waves, we never use osb on a roof. We never had problems with 1/2" and then about 18 years ago they started specking 5/8" on the roof, so we use 5/8". I still get some plans that call for 1/2" but we always use 5/8".
> 
> But now it's 15/32's Joe:biggrin:
> 
> ...


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

Paul Fisette, director of the Building Materials Technology and Management program at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst, wrote an article for the JLC and had this to say:

"When OSB is exposed to wet conditions, it expands faster around the perimeter of the panel than it does in the middle. The swollen edges of OSB panels can telegraph through thin coverings like asphalt roof shingles — so-called “ghost lines” or “roof ridging.” Irreversible edge swelling has been the biggest problem with OSB." 
"It takes a long time for water to soak OSB, and conversely, once water gets into OSB, it is very slow to leave. The longer that water remains within OSB, the more likely it is to rot. The panel’s wood species has a significant impact: OSB made from aspen or poplar has practically no natural decay resistance. "

go to http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/EN/UserTemplate/44 
Pay the fee and downlod Fisette's article and any others that seem relevant. 

The JLC forum has also discussed this issue:
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24650&highlight=plywood

Gerogia-Pacific believes Plywood is better than OSB for roofs although their web site seems to be selling the point a bit too aggressively. (footnotes 2 & 3 on the chart are off base)
http://www.gp.com/build/PageViewer.aspx?repository=bp&elementid=5111

See the original NRCA nailing test results here:
http://www.professionalroofing.net/article.aspx?A_ID=370

Here is my advice, although I suspect you are too inflexible to even consider it:

• If you must use thin (7/16" or 15/32") roof sheathing, you should use plywood because 7/16" OSB has a low nail pull-out strength and 15/32" plywood's strength, although not great, is 46% stronger.

• If you must use OSB, you should use the 19/32" thickness because it increases 7/16" OSB's low nail pull-out strength by 83% making it essentially the same strength as 19/32" plywood.

I use 19/32" plywood for roof sheathing in order to reduce the chance of shingle blow-off and panel edge telegraphing. It is a minor increase in cost for a major increase in performance. I always take the cheap insurance.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Thanks for taking the time to explain your stance on o.s.b.
I suppose some prefer it and others don't.
Perhaps the yellow pine o.s.b. differs with a northern wood o.s.b.?
Perhaps Georgia Pacific is not producing large quantities of o.s.b. and for financial reasons prefers to push plywood?

If you had read my post you would see that I have just recently used it for the first time. I do not think it is fair on your part to say "I suspect you are to inflexible to even consider it" Step off your pedestal and read your post as far as inflexible goes you are showing well:thumbsup:


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

copusbuilder said:


> Me thinks you can't teach old dogs new tricks ...
> Gentleman, just admit you are purist and trapped in the last century ...
> Don't preach 5/8" in an area where no one in the world uses it.


Sounded inflexible to me.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

mighty anvil said:


> Sounded inflexible to me.


Perhaps an attempt at humor that shot over your head English by birth:thumbsup: 
Or perhaps a misunderstanding on both our parts


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

The OSB VS Plywood debate...

I have to wonder if this is just history repeating itself? Did the same thing go on years ago between contractors networking by pigeon discussing the merits of the new fangled plywood flooring being touted by young whippersnapper carpenters with only 30 years experience and the old timers with 50 years experience touting the merits of dimensional lumber floors?:biggrin:


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

Since the plants that make it are starting to close, it won't be long before structural plywood is hard to find and designers of high end housing and commercial work will be forced to specify water resistant versions of OSB that will cost even more than the plywood they replace. The standards for construction materials keeps getting lower and the price keeps getting higher. Probably time to retire.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Nothing stays the same 
Can't let it beat you though! Heck I used to like political discussions but steer shy now:biggrin: 
Sorry if I seemed short..I have torn down a wall of a new kitchen addition and am going at it with just the wife and myself. Kinda pop in and rest for a while.....sometimes what I type and what I mean are two different things...That's why I went into construction:thumbup:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Irreversable is right. Once that OSB swells and you don't have any relief for expansion you studs or any framing member will bannana. And I mean every stud will suck in or out. 

Usually every other one in and every other one out.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

mighty anvil said:


> The standards for construction materials keeps getting lower...


Really? Are they actually lower or do they just more closely meet the minimum requirements of specific applications? I'd be interested in an example of a lower standard(s).


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Is there a difference between standards of construction and Codes? Because I was under the impression that the codes standards keep getting higher not lower.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

JustaFramer said:


> Irreversable is right. Once that OSB swells and you don't have any relief for expansion you studs or any framing member will bannana. And I mean every stud will suck in or out.
> 
> Usually every other one in and every other one out.


Hence the h clips or gaps for expansion. What happens when plywood de-laminates? O.S.B. has been used for years in Texas and I have not seen these listed faults..I have never seen studs buckle?
As I mentioned I have had my sons skateboard ramp sitting outside for a while (in the weather) and it is showing no effects of weathering, bukling, twisting the framing or whatever else.

As far as "experts"...I believe in "hands on" over written reports anytime. how many times have tradesman had to re-design the "experts' designs? 

I think you have to try it to criticize it. I just have not seen the negative sides of o.s.b. listed here. Has anyone experienced these themselves? Not through hearsay?

No, I have no shares in any lumber company:biggrin: 

Disclaimer: The above written paragraphs are not meant to offend. It is this posters belief that forums are for discussion. I do not discriminate on the basis of race or color. I do reserve the right to discriminate against engineers.


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## mighty anvil (Oct 5, 2005)

copusbuilder said:


> As far as "experts"...I believe in "hands on" over written reports anytime. how many times have tradesman had to re-design the "experts' designs?


I don't find your statement offensive and I don't want to get into a pointless pissing contest, but I don't believe your approach is a wise one for the long haul. I have been designing buildings for almost 40 years and have always had a good relationship with contractors of all kinds, but none have ever "re-designed" anything in the field except for accommodating unanticipated conditions. I have, however, had to correct the work of many contractors who have deviated from the design because it wasn't the way they were used to doing it but most were respectful of my "expert" opinion but, of course, some subscribed to your approach.

On the first house I designed, the roofer refused to put building paper underlayment under the asphalt shingles (what's the purpose?) and finally I had to tell him he wouldn't get paid otherwise and he stormed off to do it. To believe that structural and building envelope design and even building code compliance is "intuitive" or that it can be learned "on-the-job" can get you into a lot of trouble in the construction industry. The written stuff does count especially today with so many new materials and the need to cut costs. Hopefully, the reason we participate in construction forums is to better educate ourselves and to become "experts" ourselves. That is why I try to present the best information I can and to avoid the "we never do it that way here" arguments. 

Mike 
The standards I was referring to are material quality standards used by manufacturers, graders and suppliers for fabrication, sorting, transportation and storage. The plywood and dimensioned lumber that is delivered to residential sites is getting worse every year. This year, for the first time, I have had to check the grade stamp and condition of the lumber before it is installed. The building code concentrates on preventing dangerous structural conditions and sets relatively low minimum standards for material quality. Builders in certain parts of the country use only green Douglas fir, plywood arrives delaminated, OSB arrives with swollen edges, lumber yards put utility studs in with no. 2 and substitute lesser strength LVL's. I am frequently asked to recalculate the structural design to see if it still meets the code with these lesser materials since no one checks the grade stamp. Yesterday, I had to insist that a built-up 2x6 post be a 6x6 PSL post as specified. The framer questioned the reason and I pointed out that it was carrying a code required design load of 21,000 lbs. and that a built-up 2x6 post would only carry half of that assuming he replaced the four splices he had already installed. I then went back to my office to determine if the 1.8 LVL's would be OK since they had been designed as 2.0E but it turned out the yard had delivered 11 7/8 instead of 11 1/4 so it was OK except we now had to drop the living room ceiling below 8 ft. or tear down and reframe the second floor. 

Between sloppy lumberyards, poor quality control by manufacturers and "innovative" framers, my job is getting to be much more difficult than it was even 10 years ago. I am taking more liability for less compensation every year. The building department requires me to sign an affidavit when a house is completed saying that it was built according to the drawings and that the drawings meet the building code. I don't like to draw as-builts even if the owner would be willing to pay for it so I live to say, "build it the way it was drawn."

I hope that doesn't offend anyone; it's just my opinion from my perspective on a very difficult, complex issue.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Somehow I sensed the designer/engineer mentality.
Designing houses is much different than building them. It is generally a rule that we don't let the designers/engineers know we change things:thumbup: 
Trade secrets

I have been self empoyed and in business since 1978. I consider that long haul? 
But please Mighty one...Do not attempt to place me in the expert category.....I will fight all the way:biggrin: 
As to your roofer....I have had many seasoned roofers agree with him. 
Perhaps he was correct? You said you have to save cost?

I truly and firmly believe that you can not adequetly learn the building trades from a book or class room.

Let me ask one question...Have you ever framed or roofed or wired or plumbed? I've read books and done that:thumbsup:


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