# Brick for bake oven



## CJKarl

I've been talking about building an outdoor pizza/bake oven for years. This year I vow to build it.
I realize the best material would be firebrick, but I'm trying to do this by using all the odd ball masonry staked up around my yard.
I'm thinking firebrick for the floor and solid pavers for the vault. How do you think they would hold up? The brick work will be tight and neat.
I'm guessing they will be alright.


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## CJKarl

The only thing I have to loose is my time and a couple bags of mortar. :laughing:


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## griz

Probably OK. Pizza oven is what 500-600 deg? Wood fired?

Will the fire be in the same chamber as the pizza? If so it will be a fairly large chamber & not so likely to concentrate the heat on the wall as it will vent out the chimney & open door. Sound right?

If you want to check your ideas you can try one in my backyard first.
I'll do some NY's or Rib Eyes on the barbie while we are waiting for the mortar to dry.


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## CJKarl

Been doing a little research as to the proportions of the oven. The cooking area will be 28"X30". Highest part of the dome is 21" and the door is going to be 14"X14"
It will have a small chimney just inside the door.
Cooking temps could go as high as 600-800* not worried about that heat. It's the back wall that will have a small/medium fire burning right against it.
I use regular clay brick in fireplaces that need to look period in old or reproduction homes. Backed up with fire brick for code.
I've seen a few after years of use and most only had minor spalling.


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## cleveman

Sounds a bit small. Will it be inside or out? I have a friend in Greenwich Village with one inside if you have any questions.

14" is a small hole to get a 12" pizza in and out of, me thinks.


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## griz

Cooking chamber & door do sound a bit small. Consider how much your fire will "creep". You don't want the ash & embers on your pizza. After a few beers a 12" pizza through a 14" door is gonna get tight.:whistling


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## cleveman

I was up in Grand Marais a few years back. That is in Minnesota, eh? There was a funky school there for funky people that taught how to make paper, canoes, and bake ovens. 

Lots of lost women there looking for the meaning of life in wood pulp.

You might hook up with them (the learning institution) and offer to teach something on dry-stacking rocks and check out their ovens at the same time.


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## Rockmonster

CJ-check out www.fornobravo.com I've been snooping around their website for years, even though I've yet to pull the trigger and do one myself. They seem to have piles of info, great ideas, a lot of shared experiences, kits, vendors, you name it. Personally, I would use firebrick, and maybe I'm being overly cautious.......but I just picture a nice gathering at the house, and someone bites into a pizza with a chunk of brick busting a molar......cheap insurance I'm thinking.....But either way, post some photos.....it will help to motivate me..... Good luckhttp://www.fornobravo.com


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## dbrons

I've built a few of the Mugnaini pizza ovens. I think they were about 4' in diameter with an arched door.

I'm sure you could build your own. The dome in the kit is refractory and you use refractory mortar on the seams. 

The most important aspect, I guess, is the insulation. The oven floor floats on a layer of sand and one of concrete with a wood storage underneath that. The dome is covered with a blanket then filled all around with vermiculite.

Here's a good drawing:
http://www.mugnaini.com/files/pdfs/2008_Medio110_AllMasonry.pdf

Dave


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## dakzaag

I don't think the brick will be a problem with the heat, but the regular mortar won't hold up to the heat cycles. Mix fire clay, portland and sand equal parts, its pretty cheap and makes a good refractory mortar. 

Forno bravo is a great site, check out Tscar's build, the man has some skill.:thumbsup:


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## Tscarborough

Dry pressed commons will work fine, but I would use firebrick for the floor. The brick will be exposed to 12-1300 degrees when firing, and you will want to cook with the dome at 900+ and the floor above 700.

The Forno Bravo plans are the best out there, even if you want to build a barrel vault, stick closely to their plans in regard to insulation.

In this area, using the FB plans, the retail cost for the oven itself, not counting the stand or the enclosure is about $550 bucks for a 42" oven.

The type of refractory mortar will depend upon your design.


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## SC sawdaddy

I remodled a resturant a couple of years ago for an Italian guy who wanted to build a brick pizza oven. I subbed out the brick work but the mason used regular commons for the dome and fire brick on the bottom just as Tscarborough stated. Turned out real nice and cooked a mean pizza. The guy went out of business about six months later though and it turned into a mexican resturant. I guess it works just as well on burritos.


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## Teoli

I'm in the same boat you're in. I've had a pile of fire brick sitting in my garage waiting for me to pull the trigger. Good advice so far. I've been researching for a long time.

I'm not sure how Forno Bravo has anything less expensive than about $1200. But that is their DIY kit. They are great though.

I've found a ton of inspiration on You Tube. There are hundreds of videos, and some of them are actually very good, some not also. Some guys think this is a weekend project. If it was, I would've done it already. 

Put up photos, it sounds like a fun project.


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## dbrons

There's some pics of one of my projects, and tscars too, on this thread:
http://www.contractortalk.com/f48/brick-smoker-pizza-oven-slab-foundation-76495/index2/

Dave


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## Tscarborough

Mine is amateur, I am no bricklayer, but it works very well. On the next one (oh yeah, I am going to build another one), it will be square with a low arch dome, probably 36"WX32"DX20"H. The opening will be at least 21"W so I can make 20" pizzas, and will be offset to the side 4-6".


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## CJKarl

Looks like my oven size is OK, but making the door bigger is a good idea....and yes, the floor will be firebrick as much for a nice clean cooking surface as for longevity.
I'm doing a rectangular shape, is that a barrel vault?


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## CJKarl

Another good site I found.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/


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## Tscarborough

Yes, a barrel vault. Flatten it out as much as practical though. The key measurement is the door height to dome height ratio: The door height should be 63% of the dome height. i.e. for a 20" dome, the door height should be about 13".

If you are planning on cooking other than bread or pizza, you may want to make the vault higher. If you are planing on primarily pizza, you will probably want to offset the door to the vault as well.


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## tcleve4911

Local rocks and and a cookstove oven door










With thermometer


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## CJKarl

Here's some layout. This is with the 14' wide door. I do think wider will be better.

Here's the face. Sort of a 2 dimensional look at it'








Here's the floor plan.








Couple 3 dimensional mock ups.


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## CJKarl

The barrel vault would have insulation and another course of brick over it. Then stuccoed.


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## parkers5150

hey CJ look up traditionaloven.com. Rado has a ton of great info that i'm sure you will enjoy:thumbsup:


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## CJKarl

Already found him, thanks.


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## Tscarborough

Just keep in mind the mechanics of the appliance. You will be using wood to heat a certain amount of mass to the desired temperature, and insulate it well enough to both achieve the temperature and hold it for as long possible


I just saw the layout pics. What is your primary use for the oven?


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## Tscarborough

OK, after looking at your plans, it will work fine. I would, however, move the right side of the door arch to flush or nearly flush with the right vault wall. You are gong to want at least a 16" door width, and the fire works better during cooking against the left wall, not the back.

For 14" pizza, I can barely squeeze them in with the fire on the side, for 16" I have to bank it against the back. It is much more efficient on the side.

Pics of 16", fire in back, 12", fire on side.


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## concretemasonry

CJ-

Very impressive. The photos of the layout are the sign of a master mason with planning and not just a "mudslinger".

It is fortunate you have established a name in a market that has enough selected projects that are willing to have it done right.


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## CJKarl

concretemasonry said:


> CJ-
> 
> Very impressive. The photos of the layout are the sign of a maser mason with planning and not just a "mudslinger".
> 
> It is fortunate you have established a name in a market that has enough selected projects that are willing to have it done right.



Tear enough chit down and you finally learn to do careful layout.:laughing::laughing:


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## CJKarl

Tscarborough,
What is your floor dimension? Using the pizzas for scale looks like 24" X 36"? Offsetting the door is a practical idea. I had a fleeting though of doing that at the beginning, but could not find anyone who has built one that way.
Also, how is your chimney set up? Looks like you built the barrel vault oven then built the chimney and entry vestibule. You have a smaller opening from the oven THEN to the chimney? So the top of the inner door holds heat before it goes up the chimney?
I was thinking of incorporating the chimney in to the roof of the baking section of the oven. Having it outside the cooking area seems like more heat stays in the oven longer and a better way to do it.
Looks like I have a lot more layout to do. I only want to build this thing once.:laughing:


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## ave

Heres one we did last year with a forno bravo core. My buddy in texas hand built his on the back of his truck! After a couple days of cure time he drove to Ithaca, NY. Cooked food for his friends there then breakfast in the AM. Then drove 4 hours to my place. The oven was still warm when he got here. Built a fire and he was cookin again within an hour. Food was awesome. 
Pizza ovens are all he wants to do anymore. He apparently has a whole list of cuts. Planned on building mine this summer. I'll see if he will send me the list. One of my employees has a fornobravo on a trailer he has been setting up at events etc. Just started a couple months ago. He is actually makin money at it.:clap:


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## ave

This one is 40" round. Also repaired the stone retaining wall at the entrance to his root cellar.


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## jomama

*IF* it was me, I'd consider parging the entire inside ceiling and walls with refractory cement, but I may be overly cautious as well. The only one's I've done have had vitrified clay domes, which always cracked after a few fires. They do remain fully functional after they're cracked though.

Also, I don't think there's any way to "over insulate" the sides & dome on these things, especially if you have an adequate amount of thermal mass inside of it.

Good luck & post some pics when you get around to the project.


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## Tscarborough

Ave, I know Dave, he is a real oven builder.

CJ, 24x36 is about right. Here are a few pics showing how I made the vent, you definitely want it outside the oven. The lower door works like a smoke shelf, causing an air roll and helps with the proper convection through the oven.

Inner and outer arch complete:










Showing how I formed a thermal break by keying the smoke chamber brick.










Flue placement:










The whole area insulated with 8/1 perlite/cement (I used white portland just because I had some) to form a shelf for the chimney.


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## Tscarborough

Jomama, If you parge the interior, it is going to flake off. You could slurry it, I guess, but I wouldn't bother.


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## ave

TS, thats cool you know Dave. Small world. We worked together a lot back in the old days.


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## CJKarl

I thought I made some crazy cuts, those brick cuts in the smoke chamber are awesome!!!


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## Tscarborough

Hurry up!


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## lukachuki

CJKarl said:


> I thought I made some crazy cuts, those brick cuts in the smoke chamber are awesome!!!


good eye took me a bit to see em. side grinder wonder cut is what I'd call it.


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## lukachuki

Tscarborough said:


> Hurry up!


and I just ate a frozen pizza.....shame on me


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## CJKarl

I had planned on a stucco finish, now the wife says she hates the stucco look and wants stone. I guess I could build the oven out of brick, insulate then veneer id with stone? I don't know, she just added a level of complexity I wanted to stay away from. I told her I want to eat pizza this year. :laughing:
Any ideas on an all stone finish?
It's going to be tough to make it look good with the left over stone I have.


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## dakzaag

Your a brick layer and your complaining about having to lay this up in stone?

What is the matter with you? You have posted some pic's of awesome looking stone work. 

Perhaps the pay isn't great on this project, but if the Misses is happy, you'll be happy.:thumbsup:


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## lukachuki

CJKarl said:


> I had planned on a stucco finish, now the wife says she hates the stucco look and wants stone.


A post from way back NOW makes sense. Cant find it though as my internet connection is sadly lacking tonight.

Somebody posted a picture of a house with just a few adhered veneer stones stuck to it and the rest was stucco. None of us could figure out what the HO was thinking as it was butt ugly. Now we know. They compromised, as all good marriages do, and NOBODY won, not even us forumers.


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## CJKarl

dakzaag said:


> Your a brick layer and your complaining about having to lay this up in stone?
> 
> What is the matter with you? You have posted some pic's of awesome looking stone work.
> 
> Perhaps the pay isn't great on this project, but if the Misses is happy, you'll be happy.:thumbsup:



I don't want to have to buy any more material than necessary. I've got few bags of lumpy portland I'm going to use to make a concrete base, a few hundred assorted paving brick and the stone pile at my house has been picked over numerous times to find "those last couple stones" for more than a few jobs.
With brick and a stucco finish it will be pretty easy to build and make look neat and professional. Unless I BUY  some nice stone I'm afraid it may look like a homeowner built it.:shutup:
Damn wimmins! :confused1:


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## CJKarl

Hope to start digging for the slab this afternoon.:thumbsup:


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## Captainsls

CJ- Im looking forward to your build. I’ve also been aiming to build me a pizza oven at home for a few years. I finalized my plans over the winter for a freestanding combined fireplace and oven structure. I plan on using a dome construction for the oven to minimize the footprint. 
What are your plans for the actual aesthetic layout? Will it be square or what?


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## CJKarl

Layout will be rectangular. Vaulted dome.


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## CJKarl

Slab on grade base is in. One hint, don't buy rebar at the hardware store. Ouch! $1 a ft. So my backyard hobby oven has already cost me $175....and don't expect any super nice stonework. This is going to be down and dirty use up my old rock pile standard.


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## dbrons

Well, your down and dirty will probably be the same as my super nice, so I'll bet it will look good.

And I'm interested in some more ideas myself as I've always thought there must be a better way than those kits. They work great, but just so expensive. 

Last time I built one I wanted to modify it to use a masonry chimney. The stainless chimney they give you costs about $700 as I recall. The guy I was building it for said that it would void the warranty to do that. 


Dave


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## Tscarborough

I didn't spend 700 bucks for the whole damned outdoor kitchen including beverage consumption (50% of finished cost). I am a dealer for several kits, but have only sold a couple in 20 years to hard-headed people who have more money than sense. Where are you going to use that tire and rim in the oven, BTW?


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## CJKarl

Tscarborough said:


> I didn't spend 700 bucks for the whole damned outdoor kitchen including beverage consumption (50% of finished cost). I am a dealer for several kits, but have only sold a couple in 20 years to hard-headed people who have more money than sense. Where are you going to use that tire and rim in the oven, BTW?


 
I figured I could burn tires in the oven to save money. :jester:


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## CJKarl

Tire is the spare for my JEEP. Had to take it off for something about 6 months ago. Don't need to rush putting it back on.:laughing:


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## CJKarl

Forgot how fun it is to mix 16 bags in my mixer. I'll sleep good tonight.


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## superseal

Man, I can't let the wife see this thread...or else i'll be flippin" pizza's soon.

Does the local fire marshall need to sign off on this? or doesn't he need to know :whistling


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## CJKarl

superseal said:


> Man, I can't let the wife see this thread...or else i'll be flippin" pizza's soon.
> 
> Does the local fire marshall need to sign off on this? or doesn't he need to know :whistling


 

Small rural town. Nobdy cares. Technically I probably should have gotten a building permit.:whistling It's 50' from any structure anyway.


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## CJKarl




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## lukachuki

inspirational...thanks for posting these.


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## Teoli

You're off to a good start. How many more weekends?

Keep up the progress photos. I'm learning.:thumbup:


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## CJKarl

Teoli said:


> You're off to a good start. How many more weekends?
> 
> Keep up the progress photos. I'm learning.:thumbup:



Quite a few.........


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## CJKarl

Now it gets interesting. My two teenage kids are going to help me veneer it with stone.:clap:


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## jomama

Looks like a good start.

Are you going to put insulating castable under the floor of the oven?


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## CJKarl

jomama said:


> Looks like a good start.
> 
> Are you going to put insulating castable under the floor of the oven?


Still trying to figure that out. The floor of the oven will be fire brick. Can I just mix up a portland slurry, add pearllite or vermiculite and lay the brick in it?


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## CJKarl

.....and it would be nice if someone could manufacture a square and uniform fire brick.


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## Joasis

If my home was done, I would be on my build also...so I am envious. Looks good so far!

By the way....did you get a permit? :laughing:


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## CJKarl

Shhhhhhhh


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## 6stringmason

This may be a stupid question, but when you framed up to pour the perilite base for your oven floor, how did you support it from underneath, and what material did you use?


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## Tscarborough

It is sad that we have a fire brick manufacturer in Austin (Elgin, actually), but they are so bad that we rail in our firebrick from the mid-west (Whitacre-Greer). They are not perfect, but they are pretty damn close.


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## dbrons

I've started using the Whitacre-Greer firebricks out here in CA too. They're kind of expensive, but good quality and they look nice with the mortar I use.

Dave


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## CJKarl

6stringmason said:


> This may be a stupid question, but when you framed up to pour the perilite base for your oven floor, how did you support it from underneath, and what material did you use?



Ahhh, look at the pics I posted. The insulation is on a 5" slab.


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## 6stringmason

Oh I seeee... I must have missed those. I wasnt wondering about the slab, I was wondering how you framed up over your block. Any special reason for using the corrugated metal?


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## CJKarl

6stringmason said:


> Oh I seeee... I must have missed those. I wasnt wondering about the slab, I was wondering how you framed up over your block. Any special reason for using the corrugated metal?


Quicker and easier than anything else, plus I had some laying around.
Pics of today.










Arch layout


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## Tscarborough

Looks very nice, but if you put that arch on top of those walls it is going to fail. You can get away with 2-1/4" thick walls heat-wise, but you will need to buttress the walls somehow.


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## CJKarl

I have a very stout 6" rubble veneer going on there. Do you think filling the void with vermiculite concrete will strengthen it enough? Guess I could drop the vermiculite to portland ratio. Lose some R-value but gain strength.
Anyway, that was my thought on engineering.


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## Tscarborough

Even a 12-1 ratio will work if you use vermicrete. I found the tables a few years ago, but you only need something with a compressive strength of a few PSI to hold it in that configuration.


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## dbrons

> I have a very stout 6" rubble veneer going on there.


I'd say you have a stone wall with a firebrick veneer  Can you lay your dome the 4 1/2" way? (I may be misunderstanding your plans)


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## CJKarl

dbrons, are you asking if I can lay the dome with the firebrick flat? My layout may look confusing because I just used some left over pieces for figuring the spacing. I plan on sawing firebrick lengthwise and building the dome with the strips.


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## dakzaag

So you going with a barrel arch and a flat back? 

I think you can get away with that arch and vermiculite insulation between the fire "box" and the outside wall. That stuff is really lite weight and fluffy, but once it sets, the fire brick walls are not going anywhere. 

I'm not sure the vermiculite and cement mix ever gets as hard as concrete, but since your not building a garage on top of the fire box, the forces pushing out should be limited to the weight of the fire brick. 

I question why you didn't put an ash dump in the oven? Seems to me it would be the easiest way to clean out the oven without dragging all the ash out the front door? Just courious.


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## dbrons

I was just thinking as tscar suggested that a 2 1/4" width dome might have too much weight on top for the sides to support. Like I said I may not be visualizing it right. I do sometimes build fireboxes 2 1/4" wide and they work fine. 

I agree with dakzaag that there really isn't much weight on top. I'd consider how you'll support the chimney though. I always fill mine with loose insulation. 

Dave


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## Tscarborough

I assume the arch is like this and facing the entryway?


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## jomama

On a side note, what's the fundamental differences between vermiculite & perlite?


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## Tscarborough

One is brown and one is white.... (Vermiculite is flake shaped and perlite is spherical).


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## CJKarl

Tscarborough said:


> I assume the arch is like this and facing the entryway?



You have it 90* off. If you look at my pick it's set up just as if you were looking in the door. The 2 flat pieces on the bottom right represent the the 2 courses I have already laid. Then the arch starts. Do some more photoshop magic. I would like to see it. :thumbsup:
I built the arch form after work tonight. Little bit at a time, I'll git'er done.


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## dakzaag

Rockmonster said:


> Dak, How long have you had that stuff around? As I recall, Zonolite was discontinued and possibly recalled because of concerns about asbestos contamination from a mine they had in Montana........And I think that was the early_ 80's!!_ Well, mesothelioma, here I come.....I must have inhaled about 40 pounds of the stuff back in the day.........


No this is the decafinated stuff. That old stuff with asbestos was eliminated in the 70's I believe. 

It's going in a block wall to be forgotten about for the next 30 years or so.


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## wesmartyn

What exactly bears the weight of the chimney in these structures? It looks as though the chimney brick sits right on the dome and arched opening surrounding the flue opening...


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## CJKarl

wesmartyn said:


> What exactly bears the weight of the chimney in these structures? It looks as though the chimney brick sits right on the dome and arched opening surrounding the flue opening...



I'll be something similar to Tscarborough. Look back in this thread for his pics.
I'm designing on the fly, things are always in a fluid state of change. :laughing:


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## wesmartyn

I am wondering though; what if you had to go a storey or more? All the chimney facade sitting on a dome and flue which contains extreme temps and must expand and contract, would that damage the chimney over the long term? Could you span the dome with steel across the outside wythes and go up from there?


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## wesmartyn

*correction*

dome and throat


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## mastermason

*pizza oven*

I've put together 3 pizza ovens from different companies. The kits are cheap, @ $ 1500 to 1800 for everything. Too cheap / foolproof to assemble for an accomplished mason. You can enclose it in most any type of structure you please. I'd use up you left over materials i=on the bady of the oven... not wast it on the internal components that are available as a kit. They can burn at 1500 degrees ! Excelleant for breakfast lunch or dinner ! Makes for a great outdoor entertainment center ! I'm guessing you've already googled Pizza Ovens ? I bought a kit from a company here in Notrth Hollywood and imported another from a company in Oregon. Good Luck !


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## CJKarl

wesmartyn said:


> I am wondering though; what if you had to go a storey or more? All the chimney facade sitting on a dome and flue which contains extreme temps and must expand and contract, would that damage the chimney over the long term? Could you span the dome with steel across the outside wythes and go up from there?



The firebrick arch is only going to carry it's own weight. The chimney is just going to be a 4"x8" opening I'm going to build out of brick.
I'm putting my faith in the vermiculite concrete that is going to completely encase the oven.


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## Tscarborough

Firebrick are pretty stable dimensionally even at high temps. I left slip joints at the front and back walls, but have not noticed any movement at all.


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## CJKarl

I'm itching to do some more, but weather, work and family are driving me crazy right now. I think the only time I'm going to have is 5:00 am......if it's not raining again.


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## Tscarborough

It took me 5 months to do 3 days worth of work, and I STILL haven't done the countertops or built the pergola, 8 months later. <shrug> I can cook pizza in it though!


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## CJKarl

5 Months?! I want to eat pizza from this thing this summer!!! I think I can get 1/2 a day in Sat.


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## Tscarborough

Well, the base is what took the longest, since I am not a brick layer. From the time when I built the arch (which took about 4 hours), until the time I was eating pizza was only a week or 2. The rest, before and after, was just fenestration.


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## raskolnikov

Karl and Tscarborough and anyone else weighing in,
Any thoughts on soapstone firebrick being used in the vault and floor in regards to minimizing the insulating mix around the mass? I'm always looking for a way to make it smaller! Everyone thinks smaller is easier, we in the know know it's not!

D.


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## CJKarl

Soapstone sure would be nice, but it's not going to insulate any better then firebrick. I would think if you wanted to make the whole mass as small as possible then go with the precast kit.
So whats up Duane? Hows that Madison job coming? I'll have to drive down there one of these days.


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## raskolnikov

Karl,
It's a wee bit frustrating 'cause they scaled it back to save $$$ and now they're adding chit that I don't have the time for! Plus I'm just seeing the same stone day and night(mare) and Jon and Winthrop are feeling the same way too. I'll be happy when we're done and back on the Childress project. I'm hoping the two projects segue and don't crash and burn. Sorry to ***** and moan, it isn't as bad as I'm making it out to be. I'm looking forward to seeing the pizza oven grow up as you post.

D.


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## lukachuki

raskolnikov said:


> Sorry to ***** and moan,
> 
> D.


D.
way to Mood us.
T.


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## CJKarl

Well, it didn't fall down. Cleaning up in the dark....as usual.
Supposed to rain AGAIN tomorrow. Hope it clears in the afternoon. I'm really getting obsessed now.


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## CJKarl

So it looks like it will be about 25" high. More than I wanted, but just how it worked out. I forgot to actually measure it before I covered it tonight.
This thing is going to be huge when it's done. Wonder if the wife is going to freak out...................probably. She is a wife after all.


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## Tscarborough

I am a cautious man. I would stack brick against those walls until it was time to fill the space with perl/vermicrete. I get an entry way height of 15.75", which should be more than adequate. Tarp it, too, or buy an extra 1/2 cord of wood to dry it out.


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## CJKarl

I'm a gambl'in man and I have faith in adhesion.:laughing: If it's still standing tomorrow it ain't going to fall down once the mortar sets....and yes, got tarped right after the pic was taken. We're having LOTS of wet weather.


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## dbrons

> This thing is going to be huge when it's done.


Yeah you ought to see the ones I've built  Another consideration is the chimney height. I have chosen to build a peaked roof on a couple.
(one with tile roof one with concrete covered with flagstone) See with a dome shape you can keep the sides lower while maintaining the depth of insulation you need. A flat roof, for the huge kits I was building at least, would have looked too huge and I had a minimum chimney height and wanted to not have it freestanding too much.
Dave


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## CJKarl

I'm thinking flat roof with bluestone. I wanted slate shingles, but don't have anything like that in my junk pile.

How much insulation should I try to get in the roof?


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## Tscarborough

When I built my chimney, I stacked 20+ brick, a 2 gallon bucket of mud, and my 230# on top of mine for a couple of days and never really even thought about it until someone on another board wondered if their arch would be strong enough to support a chimney.


----------



## Tscarborough

"How much insulation should I try to get in the roof? "

More than anywhere else. I have a minimum of 6" of loose perlite.


----------



## raskolnikov

lukachuki,
That was good, Mongo like!!! I rarely B. and M. just because I never want the help to know I'm hot or cold. A smile on my face most of the time keeps 'em nervous.

D.


----------



## CJKarl

Still raining so I made all my cuts with the demo saw.. Hope for dry weather tomorrow.


----------



## Tscarborough

Hurry up!


----------



## CJKarl

Quick enough for you? Just in time to cover it as it started raining AGAIN!!!!!


----------



## Tscarborough

Almost there, nice!

I did 6 today, including one I call the *Guadalupe*. In line with one of my stated philosophies, namely that good pizza is made with fresh ingredients, not necessarily expensive ones, I made a Mexican equivalent to the Margarita: the Guadeloupe (pronounced "wad-a-loop-e"):

Queso Fresca in place of fior di latte
Fresh Cilantro in place of fresh basil
Cherry tomatoes crushed and salted in place of San Marzano tomatoes, also crushed and salted.

It was stunningly good, even my pepperoni-only teenager ate 2 slices.


----------



## Tscarborough

By my photoshop calculations, your entry will be 65% of the height of the dome, well within tolerance, although if you could drop it a half inch you would be at ideal (63%).


----------



## CJKarl

It ended up being 24" high to the peak.
24X.63=15.12"
Opening is 15" high :thumbsup:


----------



## CJKarl

Inner door done.


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
Check out www.traditionaloven.com, some funky pizza oven stuff going on over there!

D.


----------



## CJKarl

Thanks Duane, but I've been checking Rado's site out for over a year now.


----------



## CJKarl

1st day of veneer and I'm already running out of stone from my junk pile. I think I'm going to have to buy more. There goes the budget again. :laughing:








Like I said. Nothing pretty. Functional rubble wall, no time for Inca joints.


----------



## Tscarborough

I like it. Throw some brick in, whatever you have on hand.


----------



## raskolnikov

Yup, throw some brick in, I like it.

D.


----------



## lukachuki

forget the brick....vinyl siding on the rest or maybe just parge it....WE WANT PIZZA!


----------



## Tscarborough

You realize that the oven is only half the battle, right? Next you have to become a doughmeister. It isn't hard, about the same as mixing cement: Add water until it feels right.

Here is my pizza website, it has some basic recipes and techniques, but is a work in process:

http://pizzaanarchy.com


----------



## lukachuki

Tscarborough said:


> http://pizzaanarchy.com


not working for me


----------



## CJKarl

Tscarborough said:


> You realize that the oven is only half the battle, right? Next you have to become a doughmeister. It isn't hard, about the same as mixing cement: Add water until it feels right.
> 
> Here is my pizza website, it has some basic recipes and techniques, but is a work in process:
> 
> http://pizzaanarchy.com


I'm fully aware good dough is an art form...and I hear you about the vinyl siding. If I wasn't counting on the vermiculite concrete on the sides as part of the structure there would have already been a fire in it.


----------



## Tscarborough

just type it into the bar on top: pizzaanarchy.com


----------



## lukachuki

Tscarborough said:


> just type it into the bar on top: pizzaanarchy.com


weird I couldn't get it open in chrome no matter what I tried....so I switched to FF and it works fine.


----------



## CJKarl

Tscarborough said:


> just type it into the bar on top: pizzaanarchy.com


Is that you? Holy crap, you take this stuff pretty seriously.:clap:


----------



## Tinstaafl

Weird that it would work in FF. The actual link should be http://brokebrick.com/pizzaanarchy.htm.


----------



## lukachuki

Tinstaafl said:


> Weird that it would work in FF. The actual link should be http://brokebrick.com/pizzaanarchy.htm.


chrome no likey....prob because the word anarchy is in the link....and since google is in the pocket of the NSA...they have to keep me out....the Nanny State doesn't even like pizza.

and with this worthless post I break 1000.... :clap:


1000+ posts and no useful information given....it might be a new record.


----------



## Tscarborough

If I took it serious, it would be pizzaserious.com.


----------



## Tinstaafl

lukachuki said:


> chrome no likey....prob because the word anarchy is in the link...


Wow. Now that I check, you're right. Never ran into that before.

Congratulations on your worthlessness. :laughing:


----------



## CJKarl

On your second rise, is that at room temp?


----------



## Tscarborough

It varies, usually I do an hour bulk warm rise, then 12-96 hour cold ferment in the fridge.


----------



## CJKarl

What if I made it the same day? Say, make it in the morning or does it need that extra time for the gluten to do it's thing. (something I know nothing about)


----------



## Tscarborough

For 28 of the last 30 years I always made my dough the same day. In the last 2 years my workflow has changed dramatically, even though the dough itself is almost the same. There is simply no comparison to a same day dough and a 24 hour warm ferment, or an even longer, up to a week, cold ferment.


----------



## CJKarl

Tscarborough said:


> For 28 of the last 30 years I always made my dough the same day. In the last 2 years my workflow has changed dramatically, even though the dough itself is almost the same. There is simply no comparison to a same day dough and a 24 hour warm ferment, or an even longer, up to a week, cold ferment.


Excellent. :thumbsup:

Oh, and I couldn't resist while I was laying a few more stone this afternoon.


----------



## Tscarborough

Hurry up!


----------



## CJKarl

SHUT UP!!! :laughing: I'm almost to the point of blowing a day of work off to work on this thing.


----------



## CJKarl

It's 5 am and I want that for breakfast.:laughing:


----------



## 6stringmason

Tscar can really be a jerk sometimes. Posting pictures of that stuff when no one can have any.


----------



## lukachuki

6stringmason said:


> Tscar can really be a jerk sometimes. Posting pictures of that stuff when no one can have any.


Exactlly.....i keep looking for my "no thank you" button to express my virtual jealousy.


----------



## Seven-Delta-FortyOne

First, I apologize for breaking in on an ongoing thread. I have been following it from the start, though.

Second, NICE JOB, CJKarl. Beautiful oven.

Third, my question. I am planning on building myself one of these for this summer. I'm not much of a mason yet, so I downloaded the 70 page manual from fornobravo.com and I'm reading through it. But I don't see a chimney or vent on yours. Have you just not built it yet, or does yours not need one. And if not, why not. Thanks for your help, and good luck with the finish.


----------



## CJKarl

Mine will have a chimney. I have to build the landing, the area in front of the arched brick opening.
I have seen quite a few in my research with no chimney. So I don't think it's absolutely necessary.
Tscarborough seems to be the pizza oven pro here. Wait for his reply.


----------



## Tscarborough

Follow the FB plans and you can't go wrong. If you do not want a round oven, STILL follow the specifications, if not the design.

You do not have to have a chimney, but it certainly makes the oven work better by improving the draw.


----------



## CJKarl

Outer door mock up. Got tired of slapping rocks up in the veneer. Needed a change today.


----------



## CJKarl




----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
Curious how you're going to encapsulate your concrete slab/hearth extension, or not? Making good progress considering weather and all.
Your thread certainly has us all thinking... PIZZA!

D.


----------



## CJKarl

Duane, that's been a sticky point since inception. My plan is to get a big ol' chunk of 4" bluestone slab and cut it to fit. It would run the width of the shelf with generous overhang and be notched to run in to the oven floor. Kind of like a fat "T". At that point I plan on just gluing some thin strips of bluestone to the vertical surface with Laticrete 410. That's the plan for now anyway.


----------



## CJKarl

The next issue coming up is a roof. I'd would like to go "neolithic" and just cap the whole thing with a one piece slab. I think I could get away with a 5'x5' although I think 5'x6' would look better. What's going to be my cheapest way out? I'm thinking bluestone. Doesn't even need to be sawn, just a rough slab, that would be the ballz. I would use any stone, what ever is cheapest. Wonder if Howard up at the hillbilly quarry could split me something like that?


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
I know Howard has or could come up with something that size although, he may not have anything that thick. On the same note, I bought a natural cleft slab of bluestone from Tompkin a number of years ago and still am playing with ideas. The piece is 10' by 7'6" by roughly 4" thick and has been acting as a mini patio for too many years!:whistling

D.


----------



## CJKarl

Are you a heavy sleeper? I may have to make a midnight demo saw raid.


----------



## CJKarl

What do you think would be my cheapest way out for a roof? It would be totally supported and never walked on. Just has to be strong enough to be moved and installed. I'm know I could get away with 3"...maybe 2"
5'x6'


----------



## CJKarl

If stone is too much $$$$ I'm going to form it up and pour it. :clap:
I'm not kidding. I will be creative though. Maybe stamp in some shingle impressions and do something artistic with the edges.


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
Very lite sleeper, maybe no sleep at all! Howard could give you what you need I'm sure, though again it might be only 2" to 3" and would probably be kinda wavy gravy. That might be really sweet though 'cause it would be more natural as opposed to clean and crisp and be in keeping with what you've already got goin.

D.


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
Thought about an A roof, two slabs, low pitch? Maybe more doable from a slab point of view.

D.


----------



## CJKarl

No joints allowed. I want to put this up once and forget about it.


----------



## CJKarl

raskolnikov said:


> Karl,
> Very lite sleeper, maybe no sleep at all! Howard could give you what you need I'm sure, though again it might be only 2" to 3" and would probably be kinda wavy gravy. That might be really sweet though 'cause it would be more natural as opposed to clean and crisp and be in keeping with what you've already got goin.
> 
> D.


Do you mean Howard could supply the hearth or the roof? If he could do the roof, rough and natural would be my preference.


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
That's exactly what I meant. Have you been to the hillbilly hole? If you need "organic" stone then Howard's your man. I've seen more pieces of stone kicking around up there that would lend themselves to water features than you can shake a stick at! Not that you're building a water feature... you get my drift! I keep going back and forth about the roof and the hearth, I'll probably build one someday.

D.


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
Roof yes. Perhaps hearth. Sorry I lost that last train.

D.


----------



## CJKarl

I'll be calling "Hillbilly Rock & Stone" tomorrow. :thumbsup:


----------



## raskolnikov

Keep us posted... And just remember Howard's address is 668 Spring Street, neighbor of the beast!

D.


----------



## Inner10

WOW can't believe I haven't been following this thread, I'd love to build one of those if I had the space in my tiny downtown yard. 

T, how long does it take to get one of those ovens up to temp?

I've got a poor mans pizza oven made out of a bastardized weber grill, jet engine burner and split bricks...still that bugger takes a good 30-45 minutes to really get roaring.

Lots of love for pizza here, I typically have a few balls of dough fermenting in the fridge and spares in the freezer. Both 00 and AP flour.


----------



## CJKarl

raskolnikov said:


> Keep us posted... And just remember Howard's address is 668 Spring Street, neighbor of the beast!
> 
> D.


Neighbor of the beast!!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: That's frigg'in hysterical. Kinda makes sense though.

I could see a human sacrifice or two going on up there.


----------



## Tscarborough

That would be extremely cool for the roof to be a single slab.

Inner10, if I am cooking 3 or 4 pizzas, it takes less than an hour to be ready, if I am cooking a bunch, I fire it for a couple of hours to really heat soak it.


----------



## Captainsls

Hows about you take a 5' granite step, saw it in half... rock-face the cut side and create a square frame. Then just pour in the middle. You could miter the corners to give the illusion that its one big arse slab?


----------



## lukachuki

CJKarl said:


> The next issue coming up is a roof.


Thatch?


----------



## CJKarl

Captainsls said:


> Hows about you take a 5' granite step, saw it in half... rock-face the cut side and create a square frame. Then just pour in the middle. You could miter the corners to give the illusion that its one big arse slab?


Can't have any joints on the roof.


----------



## Joasis

Just curious, but is there any reason granite would not work for the floor of the oven?

I think Acme, our local brick yard, sells tiles that are 12 x 12, which I plan on using...but....a smooth slick floor would be great.


----------



## Tscarborough

Granite no bueno, but soapstone works.


----------



## Inner10

T, not trying to rob someone else's thread but could you pour a base of refractory concrete and cook directly on it?


----------



## Captainsls

CJKarl said:


> Can't have any joints on the roof.


Meh... Big piece of corten steel, pin and bring on the rust patina 


Why no joints on the roof... Just curious?


----------



## CJKarl

Captainsls said:


> Meh... Big piece of corten steel, pin and bring on the rust patina
> 
> 
> Why no joints on the roof... Just curious?



I need to keep the vermiculite insulation completely dry. If I have any joints up there I know years down the road I'm going to get a leak.
As far as the steel, I would go for it big time. Rusty ol' BBQ shack kinda roof....the wife on the other hand....


----------



## CJKarl

Inner10 said:


> T, not trying to rob someone else's thread but could you pour a base of refractory concrete and cook directly on it?


Probably, but firebrick are probably cheaper....and a proven floor.
Not sure about different stones. Some look very durable, but put a fire to them and they spall to no end.


----------



## Tscarborough

You could have a cast refractory floor, but it would certainly crack. You may as go with the "pre-engineered" cracks of brick or refractory tiles.


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl, 
Any luck with Hee Haw Howard? Brooksie might also have something kickin about in his wasteland. Both local stone and we all like that! I do like the idea of a metal roof that patina's out over time. 

D.


----------



## CJKarl

I'm still quite a ways from roof time. Has Howard been pulling slabs off by hand, in his shorts and crocs, lately.:laughing:


----------



## raskolnikov

He really is a throw back! I was up on the hill once and he was in a verrrrrry dirty wife beater tee, shorts and Flip Flops cleaving slabs off the ledge. Everette and I just stood there with our mouths agape.

D.


----------



## CJKarl

Another 1/2 day of piling up the rocks. I need this thing DONE! Realistically I'm only about half way with the stone.


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
Pictures please!:whistling

D.


----------



## Tscarborough

I finally poured my countertops today almost a year after the oven was done, so don't feel bad.


----------



## raskolnikov

Tscarborough,
Pictures please!:whistling

D.


----------



## CJKarl

Yeah, but at least you can cook in yours.


----------



## CJKarl

Rain all day today. No stonework, but I think I'll put up my pop-up tent and carve my lintel.


----------



## Tscarborough

Let me just say that I would never accept money for doing a counter top. They will work for me, though. They will dry out to the same color as the walls.


----------



## Joasis

Where did you get the Vestal grill Tscar?


----------



## Tscarborough

We are a Vestal distributor. That is a very nice unit. I had never seen one until a customer ordered one, and as soon as it came in, I decided to get one for myself.


----------



## CJKarl

Messed around with my lintel this afternoon.


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
Skip the suspense and fill us in already... Hesti?!!!

D.


----------



## CJKarl

HESTIA- Greek goddess of the hearth.


----------



## Tinstaafl

CJKarl said:


> HESTIA- Greek goddess of the hearth.


I guessed right. :thumbup:

Are you sure you don't want to change it to "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here"? :laughing:


----------



## CJKarl

I had some catchy ones, but I need to keep it simple.:laughing:


----------



## raskolnikov

I guess I saw the short version and was lost.:huh:

D.


----------



## Tscarborough

Mine says, _Allentare la cintura_


----------



## Tinstaafl

Love it. :laughing:


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
Didn't want this thread to slide down the list, so how's it looking?

D.


----------



## CJKarl

raskolnikov said:


> Karl,
> Didn't want this thread to slide down the list, so how's it looking?
> 
> D.


F-ing rain, that's how it's looking.
Finished up the WWI memorial in Deep River today.







MAYBE tomorrow I'll get some time.


----------



## Tscarborough

I spent the morning grinding on my counter-tops. A couple of 1/8 inch birdbaths to work out. In between sessions of grinding, I have been getting the stuff ready for 8 pizzas tonight.


Is it Soup yet?


----------



## CJKarl

Tscarborough said:


> I spent the morning grinding on my counter-tops. A couple of 1/8 inch birdbaths to work out. In between sessions of grinding, I have been getting the stuff ready for 8 pizzas tonight.
> 
> 
> Is it Soup yet?



STFU :laughing:


----------



## CJKarl

Laid a few more stones, split some wood for the 1st burn (don't know when) and finished the lintel. I may do the date on one of the jamb pieces.


----------



## Tscarborough

That is beautiful! I left a space for a small date stone, but have not done it yet.

More incentive for you:


----------



## superseal

That carving is over the top :thumbsup:

I'm partial to the "S"

SS


----------



## lukachuki

superseal said:


> That carving is over the top :thumbsup:
> 
> I'm partial to the "S"
> 
> SS


I am partial to the T

Tim


----------



## CJKarl

Seeing how the rain finally stopped and the sun came out AND it's my birthday, me and my partner knocked off at noon. Got a couple hours in the pizza hut. Little more veneer and finished the entry.


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
Looking great!!!

D.


----------



## Tscarborough

Very nice! You are almost there, and happy B-Day!


----------



## CJKarl

5 hours this afternoon. Jambs and lintel set in lime mortar I cooked off last fall.
If I built it the way I wanted, brick and stucco, I'd be eating pizza tonight. But nooooo, I had to listen to the wife.


----------



## lukachuki

CJKarl said:


> 5 hours this afternoon. Jambs and lintel set in lime mortar I cooked off last fall.
> If I built it the way I wanted, brick and stucco, I'd be eating pizza tonight. But nooooo, I had to listen to the wife.


Looks real nice. I must of missed it but what exactly does Hestia signify or did you just name the oven?


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl, 
See, it wasn't just me! Closing in on it though and have you figured out your roof detail?

D.


----------



## CJKarl

HESTIA is the Greek Goddess of the hearth. I'm pouring the roof....but it's not going to be typical.


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl, 
Pouring the roof!???

D.


----------



## CJKarl

raskolnikov said:


> Karl,
> Pouring the roof!???
> 
> D.


Form it and pour it. I have a couple little "special" ideas though.


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
Special ideas? Is the "special" after you pour the roof? Hide the pour if you will?

D.


----------



## CJKarl

raskolnikov said:


> Karl,
> Special ideas? Is the "special" after you pour the roof? Hide the pour if you will?
> 
> D.



Nope, I'm going to "celebrate" it. As an architect would say. :laughing:


----------



## Tscarborough

Looks great, and ready to use!


----------



## CJKarl

Tscarborough said:


> Looks great, and ready to use!


Another couple hours of stonework and I can pour about 1/2 the vermiculite concrete in. Because of the way I built the vault I'm counting on it for strength of the arch spring points.
THEN I could actually cook in it if I wanted to. But I think I'll wait until it's done. At least until the stonework is up to height and I add the rest of the vermiculite.


----------



## superseal

Happy belated B-day...Can't wait to see the final results. 

Really looks good :thumbsup:


----------



## CJKarl

Picking up the vermiculite today. A little more veneer this afternoon and then the first half of the pour tomorrow. I'll shoot some more pics soon.


----------



## TheItalian204

thats a nice one....*REMEMBER NOT TO PUT CHEESE ON PIZZA :clap:*


----------



## CJKarl

Picked this up today-








3"-4" void will be filled with vermiculite.


----------



## CJKarl

Forming the throat.


----------



## raskolnikov

Karl,
How tall's the stack going to be above the roof?

D.


----------



## CJKarl

My flue will set directly on the roof.


----------



## lukachuki

man a wood fired pizza sounds so delicious about now.


----------



## JBM

I like the way you roll Karl!


----------



## Tscarborough

Looking good! I would slice that styro vertically into 3 pieces though to make it easy to remove (basically cut a 2-3 wide strip in the center of the throat).

What are you going to use to pour the throat?


----------



## CJKarl




----------



## CJKarl

As far as forming the throat I'm just packing the "vermicu-crete" tight to the foam.
It's a little deceiving from that angle. The top of the concrete roof is the top of the form. So 4" down would be the bottom of the roof slab. All the rest will be well packed vermicu-crete.


----------



## CJKarl

raskolnikov said:


> Karl,
> How tall's the stack going to be above the roof?
> 
> D.


The top of the flue will be 2' above the top of the foam.


----------



## CJKarl

This thing started out as an enjoyable and interesting project. Now I just want it finished. I'm probably 80%-90% done, but sheesh, If I built this for a customer it would cost about 10 grand.


----------



## Tinstaafl

Yeah, I've been watching in awe as it grows and makes new demands like the plant in Little Shop of Horrors. "Feed me, Seymour!" :laughing:

You have too much invested and too big an audience to stop now. :thumbsup:


----------



## dbrons

> My flue will set directly on the roof.


That's a great idea Karl. I'm watching closely your throat, and chimney construction. One of the things I disliked the most about the kits I've built is the ridiculous metal chimney. Too expensive and then I've got to worry about how to flash it.

The stone looks great  Oh and 10 grand? The kits cost 5 or more plus block, stone, chimney etc. So 10 grand isn't too bad  

Dave


----------



## Tscarborough

If you sold it for less than 10 grand you would be giving it away. It is unbelievable to me the garbage that is sold as either kit or almost ready to fire kits for 3-10 grand. Do not even get me started on imported oven prices.


----------



## raskolnikov

Tscarborough,
That's what separates the men from the boys! We all know how to get from point A to point pizza and most don't. So the smart guys are charging an arm and a leg to do that route. More power to them and I only wish I had the time to play pizza oven builder for hire!!! What would I do with my crew at that point? One of them is so obsessed with ice cream I'm thinking about trading the dump truck in for a Good Humor truck!

D.


----------



## Tscarborough

More incentive, hurry up!

(scratch Italian sausage pre-cooked with garlic, onion, and fennel, with fresh mozzarella and cilantro added after cooking)


----------



## CJKarl

Ran out of stone last weekend. Did'nt have time until Fri. morning to get more. Rained all day today, so no progress. Although I did run in to a baker and we had some good discussions on dough. I'm going to let her bake some bread in my oven and she's going to teach me about dough. Win-win. :thumbsup:


----------



## CJKarl

"There's a fine line between caramel and carbon."


----------



## superseal

CJKarl said:


> Ran out of stone last weekend. Did'nt have time until Fri. morning to get more. Rained all day today, so no progress. Although I did run in to a baker and we had some good discussions on dough. I'm going to let her bake some bread in my oven and she's going to teach me about dough. Win-win. :thumbsup:


Ha ha, bun in the oven and teaching you about dough. That can't be a good thing :laughing:


----------



## CJKarl

After 2 weeks of no time for the pizza hut, I got back to it today.
I had a small amount of fire clay left so I mixed it up with a little sand and plastered it on top of the dome for more mass. By tomorrow afternoon I should have at least some of the veneer up to finish height.


----------



## CJKarl

That high stone is about 3" from the top. :clap:


----------



## Tscarborough

It is too hot here for me to use the oven, 105 on the patio at 7:00PM. I need to get the pergola finished, although I did grind on the countertops all day.

Looks like kitchen oven pizza tonight!

You are almost there, and certainly in the range of usage.


----------



## CJKarl

Yeah, I feel confident enough now that the vermiculite surrounds the bottom of the vault....but I'll wait till it's completely done.


----------



## CJKarl

My infrared thermometer came last week. Time to buy and make some cooking tools.


----------



## CJKarl

A little more sq. footage up.:thumbsup:


----------



## Tscarborough

The size and shape look fine, but the vermicucrete is soft and crumbly. Parging it may work, but that is the hottest part of the oven.


----------



## CJKarl

Project of the day- turn this pile of used and abused lumber in to a roof form. A good start anyway. I think I need to find/buy more for bracing.


----------



## CJKarl

WE POUR....AT DAWN!!!!!


----------



## superseal

Dang it - them forms went right up :thumbsup:

We gonna have a roof :clap:


----------



## CJKarl

18 bags.......then as usual, RAIN!


----------



## CJKarl

MAN, it's frigg'in POURING out. Wonder what the roof is going to look like? It's just mag floated and covered with poly.


----------



## dakzaag

Its gonna look top notch as usuall.

You will probably never get a chance to see it again, but water finishing it is just fine.


----------



## jomama

Looks great, as normal CJ.............. :thumbsup:


I do share concerns with T-scar though that the throat/chimney will need to be parged out with something like Heat stop to keep the castable from deteriorating. I think it will be easy enough to do though.

Enjoy........... :thumbsup:


----------



## CJKarl

We'll see. It will be a good experiment. When I poured the vermiculite I tamped the crap out of it all around the foam form.


----------



## Big Shoe

Just checked out this thread for the first time. Wow :thumbup: :thumbup: Makes me want to build one too! :laughing:

Have a great 4th :thumbsup:


----------



## CJKarl

It lives!








The flue is just sitting up there and I still have A LOT of clean up. Couldn't resist a small fire just to see some smoke.
Roof details-








You can see the "swallow-tail" pitch I put in the roof.-


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## CJKarl

Did a little shake down fire tonight. After 3 or 4 small to medium fires over the last month I fired it up to 850* roof, 550* floor. I think it's going to work great.
I did end up with and expansion crack around the oven in the stonework. Right about where the vault starts it's curve. I'll let the heat take it's course and point it up after a few more fires.


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## superseal

Am I seeing a swale for roof drainage? 

Crown looks good molded in there, awesome job there fella :thumbsup:


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## CJKarl

Thanks, yeah, I "swallow-tailed" the roof. Wanted something different. I knew if I poured it dead level the water would still find a low spot and always drip there causing a big brown streak down the side. I pitched it all off the back center.


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## CJKarl

Fire is roaring, pizza is almost ready to put in......and the thunder is rumbling in the distance. Should be interesting.


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## CJKarl

Now I know what Tscarborough is talking about !!!!!!!:clap::clap::clap:


























If the weather is good I'll finish the hearth Sat.


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## JBM

Your a riot!

Nice work!


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## dbrons

Bravo! Bravo!


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## lukachuki

CJKarl said:


> Now I know what Tscarborough is talking about !!!!!!!:clap::clap::clap:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the weather is good I'll finish the hearth Sat.


Thats got to be a satisfying feeling. Looks so delicious!


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## CJKarl

lukachuki said:


> Thats got to be a satisfying feeling. Looks so delicious!


Better than it looks!! Finish the hearth tomorrow....I hope.


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## dakzaag

CJKarl said:


>


Is that Bacon I see on that pizza?


I am so jealous I might just have to start mine soon.

Dave


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## tgeb

Congratulations CJKarl.

Pretty interesting to follow you through this thread. Nice pie! :clap:

I'm sure there are a lot of other "lurkers" thinking......"I'm gonna build a pizza oven."

Yours is a work of art. :thumbsup:

Thanks for sharing the progress pics.


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## Diamond D.

tgeb said:


> Congratulations CJKarl.
> I'm sure there are a lot of other "lurkers" thinking......


Lurker here. 



> "I'm gonna build a pizza oven."


One of these days.:whistling:



> Yours is a work of art. :thumbsup:


Agreed. :thumbup:

Throughly enjoyed following along. :clap: 

Thanks CJ,
D.


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## Tinstaafl

tgeb said:


> I'm sure there are a lot of other "lurkers" thinking......"I'm gonna build a pizza oven."


I've been found out. :laughing:

This has been one of the most tantalizing threads on 
CT. I'm stoked. :thumbsup:


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## lukachuki

tgeb said:


> I'm sure there are a lot of other "lurkers" thinking......"I'm gonna build a pizza oven."


Actually after watching this thread I'm thinking I won't!




















At least for a few years. 

It's a heck of a lot of work, and I can barely stay ahead of my honey do list, actually in the spirit of full confession I can't even stay up with that.


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## CJKarl

dakzaag said:


> Is that Bacon I see on that pizza?
> 
> 
> I am so jealous I might just have to start mine soon.
> 
> Dave



Not bacon, caramelized onions. Oh, don't worry there will be bacon in this thing soon enough. Bacon makes the world go around.


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## CJKarl

Just thought of something, wonder if I could cook thick cut bacon right on the floor of the oven?


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## Tscarborough

Awesome, Man! You are there! You can cook right on the floor, "dirty" steak is great, and the next fire cleans the floor.


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## CJKarl

Tscarborough said:


> Awesome, Man! You are there! You can cook right on the floor, "dirty" steak is great, and the next fire cleans the floor.


Never even thought of that. :thumbsup:


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## superseal

We'd a never made it out of the stone ages if it weren't for dirty steak :laughing: and bacon... and pizza :whistling


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## dakzaag

superseal said:


> We'd a never made it out of the stone ages if it weren't for dirty steak :laughing: and bacon... and pizza :whistling


My wife says I'm still there...:whistling


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## CJKarl

I put the hearth extension on yesterday so no cooking last night. Tonight though, big plans. Branching out. Pizza plus a skillet if veggies to roast and when it's all done the kids want to bake cookies in it.


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## dakzaag

go back to bed, its Sunday for crying out loud.


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## CJKarl

I go insane laying around.


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## dakzaag

woke up at 5 and couldn't figure out why it was so quiet. Inspected my little corner of paradise to make sure all was well and got on CT.

I need a life. :laughing:


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## 6stringmason

Damn nice CJ!! Damn nice indeed!

Love the pitch on the roof and the edge you put on it. One of these days... one of these days.

This should be stickied.


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## Joasis

I am pouring concrete tomorrow for my driveway at the new home..and guess what else gets placed? Yes....the base for the pizza oven / outdoor smoker. So I am at least going the right direction.


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## CJKarl

OK, I"M DONE! With the masonry anyway. Put some leftover limestone paving on the hearth extension. Only thing left is the finish grading and minimal landscaping.


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## CJKarl

Crappy pic in the bright sun. I'll take more tonight when I'm cooking again. I can see cooking in this being cyclical. All excited now that it's new. It will loose it's charm after a while. Then a couple months of inactivity, then start cooking again.
Is that how it goes Tscarborough?


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## Tscarborough

More like rhythmic. It is too damned hot out there now, at least until I get around to building the pergola, but when the temps are below 90 and above freezing, I fire it pretty much every weekend to cook pizza or something.


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## CJKarl

stonecutter said:


> It looks like a short handle peel fixed to a broom handle. close?


Exactly. I have a packrat buddy that has one of everything ever made by man. I mentioned I was building an oven he said he had a peel kicking around somewhere.
Couple hose clamps and I'm good to go. I do plan on buying one with a longer handle.


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## Robyone

Very cool! Man, I want to build one of these now...the wife would shoot me if I started another project though.


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## CJKarl

Besides the peel, my favorite/most useful tool is a 5' long 1"x1" oak stake.
It's a great poker for the fire and because it's square you can hold it flat to the oven floor and scrape it pretty clean. I then wrap a damp dish towel around it and give the floor a very light quick swab to clean most of the ash off. I was looking at all the fancy and expensive tools they have for the backyard pizza connoisseur. 
I would say spend your money on a good peel and find a square stick. Pretty much all you need.


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## stonecutter

I had a long handle square peel but I like the round peel better. Another tool that I used a lot was like a long metal spatula to slide under the pizza just before I would slide it of the peel. It helped to get flour ?(I hate cornmeal) under the dough so it came off the peel easier.


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## Diamond D.

Robyone said:


> Very cool! Man, I want to build one of these now...*the wife would shoot me if I started another project though*.


I just got the go ahead, tonight. (After several requests.) :clap:

But only, "after you finish the front." (see CT summer competition)

Driveway; done.
Irregular flag patio; basic layout, done. Needs to be laid.

Meanwhile, while digging out the driveway, I decided to rip out the concrete walkway, make it wider and add a fork.
That is dug out and stoned.
Still have to get Pa. pattern material and possible brick border

So, with that said, it looks like next spring/summer's project.
But, as you guys know the "go ahead" is 80% of the project.

That will give me the winter to make a design, using all the leftover materials accumulated over the years.

D.


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## stonecutter

Diamond D. said:


> I just got the go ahead, tonight. (After several requests.) :clap:
> 
> But only, "after you finish the front." (see CT summer competition)
> 
> Driveway; done.
> Irregular flag patio; basic layout, done. Needs to be laid.
> 
> Meanwhile, while digging out the driveway, I decided to rip out the concrete walkway, make it wider and add a fork.
> That is dug out and stoned.
> Still have to get Pa. pattern material and possible brick border
> 
> So, with that said, it looks like next spring/summer's project.
> But, as you guys know the "go ahead" is 80% of the project.
> 
> That will give me the winter to make a design, using all the leftover materials accumulated over the years.
> 
> D.


LMAO....When I did mine my wife started calling herself a pizza oven widow!! I had to keep reminding her of the rewards.:thumbsup:


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## Tscarborough

I treat tools for the oven like any other, that is I buy all of them I can. The list is long:

Oven:
14"x48" metal peel.
Turning peel (actually a commercial SS paddle with an integral 36" handle)
Brass brush/scraper w 5' handle
Ash scoop
Fireplace poker
Ash can (galv trash can with a hardware cloth basket to save the charcoal for the grill)
IR gun

Dough/sauce/pizza:
(all kept separate from the kitchen stuff)
24 inch poly cutting board
Stick blender
Commercial pizza cutter/spoons/ladles/etc
Commercial modular serving/storage prep station with 12 assorted servers (used for bench flour/sauce/large ingredients)
Bar server (used for small ingredients)
HD 4-way cheese grater
2ea 3pc sets of measuring cups
Dough cutter
Pan grabber
At least 3ea pans and screens, 12",14",16"
5 nesting aluminum rising pans
8 Tupperware dough storage containers
2 SS cooling stands
2 fly covers

I don't use all of it all the time, but I can do a lot of pizzas if needed and it sure makes it easier.


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## CJKarl

Another successful pizza night. Our 17 year old daughter had about 10 friends over for an end of summer party.
















This was the "frankenpizza" We messed up and didn't have enough cornmeal under it when we made it so it stuck on the peel and got a bit tweeked. Turned out to be the best one of the night.








My brother showing off.


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## stonecutter

Man Karl, you are just cruel...I gotta get home and build my oven!


I dont use cornmeal for dusting the peel only flour. If you try it use bread flour instead of all purpose. King Arthur is good...:thumbsup:


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## stonecutter

Hey, is that whole wheat flour you used for that pie or is it the lighting in the pic that made it look like that?

Ugly pies are the best!!


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## CJKarl

It could be. They only had 2 whole wheat doughs thawed, the rest were white.


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## CJKarl

stonecutter said:


> Man Karl, you are just cruel...I gotta get home and build my oven!
> 
> 
> I dont use cornmeal for dusting the peel only flour. If you try it use bread flour instead of all purpose. King Arthur is good...:thumbsup:



It took pictures like this to get me off my butt and build mine.


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## stonecutter

CJKarl said:


> It took pictures like this to get me off my butt and build mine.


:laughing: I have an excuse..I`m 860 miles away from home right now!!


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## Datadawg

Robyone said:


> Very cool! Man, I want to build one of these now...the wife would shoot me if I started another project though.


+1.

I'm impressed how committed some of you guys are to this, I never realized it requires this much thought, planning and work to get it "right".


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## CJKarl

...and the planning never ends. I have already discovered things I would do different. Allow for more expansion, my #1 concern.


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## CJKarl

My 1st bake. Welded some rebar on a couple pieces of steel plate and made a door.
It was all delicious.


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## fjn

*ovens*

CJKARL This is a real neat post you started!! I did not have a chance to read all of it. This may have covered before,but SUPERIOR CLAY CORPORATION in Ohio,makes oven & rumford 'kits'. Also they make a fire brick you may consider for fire boxes that need a more antique look . That is what prompted me to throw in my .02cents. Again great topic you introduced.


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## CJKarl

Bacon for bacon/cheddar/jalapeno pizza.
















Did some "dirty bacon" too. Right on the bricks.


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## stonecutter

Thanks for torturing us with those pics Karl! 

I`m back in SC and in the design/planning stages for my next oven...it is going to be radically different than the last one.


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## dom-mas

I know this thread is old and the pizza oven is probably all ready built so I guess this is for anyone whos doing a search.

I rememberd while driving past a pile of old yellow/white bricks (not just the face but the entire brick is made with grey clay rather than red) that when I took a course on bake ovens that the fellow said that what makes red bricks red was iron oxide and that grey clay is more pure and because it doesn't have as much iron it will withstand heat alot better. He also said mortar with a high lime content lasts longer as well because it can take the expansion and contraction better than a typical portalnd based mortar


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## lukachuki

A bit off topic...but I'm super happy to say that one of my Italian friends who has a passion for wood fired pizza's is turning it into a business. He is starting a restaurant....his WFO should be here from Italy any day now. 

Yippee....now I don't have to just drool I can do something about it.


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## Tscarborough

This is not a WFO pie, it was cooked in the kitchen oven, but it was one of the best tasting pies I have ever made. Try it. The dough was a 10 day cold fermented dough, the sauce was tomatoes with minimal spice, the cheese whole milk mozzarella, the toppings simply cubed ham steak, green onions, and sliced pickled serranos. Freaking good, and I will definitely make it the next time I fire the WFO.


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## Tscarborough

I have to feed teenage soccer girls tomorrow, so I made a simple dough:

5 cups All Trumps bromated flour
2-1/2ish cups water
1 tsp IDY
1 tsp brown sugar
1 tsp pickling salt

Times 2 for 8 14-16" pizzas total, but I added 1 tsp dried basil to the one on the right so I could tell them apart. They are doubling, I will punch them down in an hour or so, then ball them for the fridge.


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## CJKarl

Dump score for the pizza oven. :thumbup: We have a shed at our local transfer station for stuff that may be your trash but my treasure. Today my wife sees a guy putting this out-









It's in excellent shape. Can be used in a fountain or as a decorative piece.
I found a home for it.









Is a nice cast concrete one. Couple hundred $$$ I'm sure.


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## JBM

Wow good find!


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## JBM

That would make a sweet ass fresh air intake from the outside!


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## dom-mas

JBM said:


> That would make a sweet ass fresh air intake from the outside!


Oh yeah!!!!


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## Tscarborough

Nice find! I was abandoned by the soccer team, now I have 8 doughballs and no reason to cook them. Tomorrow will be pizza day in the neighborhood.


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## superseal

Tscarborough said:


> Nice find! I was abandoned by the soccer team, now I have 8 doughballs and no reason to cook them. Tomorrow will be pizza day in the neighborhood.


Damn, I was dying for a pizza today after seeing that dough last night too.

Excellent snag Karl - looks right at home :thumbsup:


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## lukachuki

Tscarborough said:


> Nice find! I was abandoned by the soccer team, now I have 8 doughballs and no reason to cook them. Tomorrow will be pizza day in the neighborhood.


First time I have ever wanted to move to TX. :thumbup:


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## Tscarborough

It balled up very nice this morning too. I can not say enough about this All Trumps Bromated flour, it makes extremely nice dough. If you can find it, get it. I have been using Caputo 00 and King Arthur bread flour, and it is 100 times better than either.


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## fjn

*flour*

Has anyone ever made bread using spelt flour? Makes some tasty bread.


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## Tscarborough

Working on door, Mk IV. I coated the edges and down the center with Heatstop mixed 3/2 with perlite to a thickness of an inch to 2" (in the center), then filled it with Heatstop mixed 1/3 with perlite. I topcoated the exterior with a 1/2" 1 to 1 mix.

First pic in the mold, second with the blank cut in half, sharp edges rounded, and front acid stained. Just need to sand it to fit and add handles.


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## JBM

Very Nice!


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## dakzaag

CJKarl said:


> Dump score for the pizza oven. :thumbup: We have a shed at our local transfer station for stuff that may be your trash but my treasure. Today my wife sees a guy putting this out-


She looks like she could literally eat you alive Carl, you better treat her right.:thumbsup:


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## Diamond D.

But why cut it in half? Weight?

Your surly not going to hinge it to the oven... Are you?

D.


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## Tscarborough

I made a distinct error in judgement when I built the oven: The inner and outer arch are the same size. Thus the only way to get a door into the inner arch is to cut it. Plus it is heavy, each half weighs about 8 pounds while still wet. 

Here is the backside:


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## dom-mas

I've been looking at your build on forno bravo tscarborough. Looks good. Since you haven't had much luck forming doors, what about white oak? I think it can take heat. It seems to me that anything that you pour will either not have the strength, because it's not dense enough or won't insulate because it's too dense/strong.


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## Tscarborough

The Italians just soak a wood door and use it, but that is usually with no active fire (cooking bread). When I door it up there is still a lot of coals and even a little burning wood in the oven. It is HOT.

This type of door is inherently fragile, the secret is not dropping when it burns your hands (Door Mk2 and Mk3). On this one, I will attach wooden float handles with high-temp silicone.


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## superseal

Ipe lumber won't burn to easily either and could be used if needed... although, I like the one you just did, and that half door might come in handy. Pretty cool :thumbup:


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## stonecutter

Tscarborough said:


> After cooking in 3 different types of ovens and building two, my suggestion would be for a rectangular low dome design. Say 42" wide, 36" deep, with a ceiling height of around 15", a door of 9"x18", offset 4"-6" to one side or the other. All brick laid to give 2-1/2" of mass with at least 6" of perlcrete insulation surrounding the oven.
> 
> That is what I am building next, and I think it will be the best compromise of efficiency in both building and firing and ease of use.


Maybe I'll try that next...my dad wants one at his house now. For me, the dome design is my favorite. I personally don't see how a vault could edge out a dome with efficiency in firing since the round interior lends itself to more even heat distribution and with the vault having a flat back. The differences are probably very minimal though and not worth debating. I would defiantly agree that a vault is easier to build...since most masons have done an arch at some point or another.


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## dom-mas

Why an offset door?


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## CJKarl

Because you generally cook on one side of the firebox.


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## CJKarl

BUT, you can also bank your fire in the back or on both sides.


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## stonecutter

I wouldn't offset the door because watching the fire roll up and over the top of the oven is half the fun.


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## Tscarborough

You still see the fire rolling up over the ceiling, it just gives you more working room. My current oven is offset a couple of inches. FYI, it is more efficient to have the fire burn on one side of the other rather than in the center during heat up. It allows the flame to roll over the ceiling, as noted, and it also exposes the floor to more heat than does the (insulating) layer of ash covered by coals.


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## CJKarl

Rough layout of concrete prep table. 30 sq.ft. going to be supported on two 16" legs.
Can't wait to start digging. Maybe today.


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## stonecutter

Hey, I thought you were going to turn that center stone into a millstone.:laughing:


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## CJKarl




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## CJKarl

120' of steel going in a 30sq.ft. slab.


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## CJKarl

I have a crazy cantilever table in mind.


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## CJKarl

At the annual picnic at our local quarry. I think I posted about the prefab pizza ovens they sell and their poor design.
Well tonight they are having problems keeping the ovens up to temp.


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## stonecutter

No wonder with that huge oven opening. They probably aren't insulated well either.


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## CJKarl

It's a precast lightweight dome with thinstone glued to it. Stack exits from the cooking area.


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## Nick520

Cj which quarry


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## stonecutter

Then they are even worse than what I thought they were.


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## Joasis

Tscarborough said:


> After cooking in 3 different types of ovens and building two, my suggestion would be for a rectangular low dome design. Say 42" wide, 36" deep, with a ceiling height of around 15", a door of 9"x18", offset 4"-6" to one side or the other. All brick laid to give 2-1/2" of mass with at least 6" of perlcrete insulation surrounding the oven.
> 
> That is what I am building next, and I think it will be the best compromise of efficiency in both building and firing and ease of use.


Alright Tscar.....how about a rendition, complete with base dimensions...your "perfect" oven....I would even pay for a scaled and detailed plan......and if you had a design for a brick smoker next to it as one unit...wow. 

So....... :thumbsup:


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## Inner10

Joasis said:


> Alright Tscar.....how about a rendition, complete with base dimensions...your "perfect" oven....I would even pay for a scaled and detailed plan......and if you had a design for a brick smoker next to it as one unit...wow.
> 
> So....... :thumbsup:


I'd also pay for a set of plans if it included a materials list.


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## dakzaag

Relax fellas, you can find all the info you need at Forno Bravo's website. Plans, material lists and a ton of hints and tricks to make your build come out great.

No need to be wasting money when it is all out there just waiting for you.:thumbup:


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## fjn

dakzaag said:


> Relax fellas, you can find all the info you need at Forno Bravo's website. Plans, material lists and a ton of hints and tricks to make your build come out great.
> 
> No need to be wasting money when it is all out there just waiting for you.:thumbup:





Thank you for the info.,had to do a little digging but there is a ton of stuff on their site !:thumbsup:


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## dom-mas

10-12:1 I was thinking half that


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## Tscarborough

I have the chart at work, 6-8 to one is more than adequate for under the floor(2-300psi+), 10-12 is right for over the dome if you can't do loose.


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## bytor

@dom-mas , I got the Foamglas at a place out towards the airport...

Glasscell Isofab inc.
1000 Martin Grove Road 
Etobicoke, Ontario M9W 4V8 

It's obviously more expensive than using the perlcrete, but I am impressed with the results.

I also agree with Tscarborough that the hearth height is nicer if higher than the bend of your elbow. Mine is at elbow height and in hindsight, I would have liked it a little higher.


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## stonecutter

dom-mas said:


> I've just gotten started on my oven and I'm at a standstill becasue of the height of the base. What is an ideal height? I see everything form 40-50" being thrown around. I'm not that tall, 5'10 and i'm thinking that I want it at cocked elbow height, high abdomen level...does that sound right?
> 
> Also for Bytor...I thought i had asked you about that foamglas and where you had bought it but I don't see my question in your build thread. I've only tried one supplier so far but they have never heard of it.
> 
> And lastly, I hear most folks talking about perlcrete as insulation. is there any problem with vermiculite instead? And what about roxul..i know Bytor used it but I haven't read about anyone else doing so. Just because it's not as form fitting?


Sean, I use mineral wool for the oven and loose fill perlite or vermiculite over that. You can get it in bats just like fiberglass and it conforms very well to the oven itself.

If I was not building an enclosure, then I would use ceramic blankets and a 10:1 perlcrete layer before the stucco.


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## stonecutter

As far as what height for the hearth height, I build mine about four inches above elbow height...I'm just a touch under 6', and it works out to 48". Though I had a couple for some vertically challenged clients that were lower.


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## dom-mas

bytor said:


> @dom-mas , I got the Foamglas at a place out towards the airport...
> 
> Glasscell Isofab inc.
> 1000 Martin Grove Road
> Etobicoke, Ontario M9W 4V8


I'm not in the GTA so I won't be going to the same place...my question i guess should have been more about what sort of supplier it was. But i'll google that name...thanks.


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## Tscarborough

Here is the chart I use, the water amounts are spot on.


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## CJKarl

Great pizza evening. 



Finished the pergola this morning too.


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## pappagor

never knew ther was that much to a pizza oven looking very cool:thumbup:


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## dbrons

Well yeah, with the necessity of having the oven pretty high up, the need for mass and thick layer of insulation, not to mention the position of the chimney, these ovens take some real skill and design to avoid looking bad. 

There's some great work here to learn from. 
Dave


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