# RedGard over shower pan



## bluebird5

when doing a tile shower first i pour the prepan, next i install the liner,next i install the cement backerboard next i pour the floor, next i tape and bed the joints then i will redguard now here is where i am confused should i redguard only the walls? the walls and floor both? the walls the corners where the walls meet the floor and leave the rest of the floor alone?


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## Bastien1337

if you were going to limit the area to be red-guarded I would say do the pan curb and atleast a foot or so up the walls. but realistically hit the whole thing.


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## bluebird5

i am not trying to save redguard im just hazy on wether to redguard the floor or not


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## TileLady

*Pour the floor?*

What exactly are you pouring?

Are you doing a mud shower pan or just pouring cement :blink:


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## bluebird5

the shower pan on top of a flat floor


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## mikeswoods

Bluebird--If you have a built the pan as you described--pre slope-liner --drypack--

Then you do not want to red guard the floor before the tile.Just the walls.

Look here---ask more questions--good luck--Mike--


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## CO762

If I were you, I'd hire a tile tradesman/woman to do it.


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## bluebird5

why bc i've got 1 question?


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## CO762

bluebird5 said:


> why bc i've got 1 question?


no, because you have a rather large question that could lead a person to think you've never done this before.

A company I worked for all their masons did tile, but none of their tile guys did masonry. If you can do mudwork, you should know the rest by second nature. May just be me though and i'll admit I'm not having a good day.

On the bright side, today I did a repair--ish on a pan that had about 8 different slopes, most of which going back towards the wall(s) and/or corner(s). Had a big crack in the middle along a grout line to the drain. I think that was where the pivot point was. 

How have you done any showers before?


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## HandyHails

CO762 has a point. Your talking two different types of shower systems here. If your using a pvc liner the top layer of mud should be extremely porous as to allow water to percolate to the pvc liner and make its way to the weep holes that you were SURE to leave open when you ran your dry pack. Waterproofing on top of drypack negates this effect.

If you are going to pour a solid pan that is not meant to percolate water though it, you should use a Kerdi drain and waterproof on top of that w/ fabric water proofer to ensure that NO water gets through your base. In this scenario you don't use PVC liners.

Combining the two systems has no benefit and may cause issues down the road.


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## Bastien1337

I dont know how using these two systems together could be detrimental, just unnecessary. If the pvc liner is done properly then you dont need the redguard on top, but If you wanted it there for extra protection I personally dont see anything wrong with that. if something does get through the red guard well then the pvc liner is there to pick up the slack.

I agree to use one or the other for cost/time savings, but what possible complications could arise from using both?


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## HandyHails

I was thinking more along the lines of a newbie who has never done any showers before. Imagine a poorly sloped pan that would have been OK because the preslope was alright but now it is waterproofed on top and running back to the walls. A pro can get away with a lot if he understands the principles behind what he is doing. The OP does not, or at least did not at the time of this posting.


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## CO762

Bastien1337 said:


> I dont know how using these two systems together could be detrimental, just unnecessary.


More along the lines of what handyhails was saying.
Mebbe it's just me, but I don't understand the OP's one question:



> where i am confused should i redguard only the walls?
> the walls and floor both?
> the walls the corners where the walls meet the floor and leave the rest of the floor alone?


There's been a lot of active debate in the levels of waterproofing in general. I'd also treat a guest shower in a second home differently than one for a family of 5 or a gang shower. Sometimes I do verticals, sometimes I don't, etc. 

The OP's a general contractor, but he doesn't appear to know how to build a walk in shower. So is it he that's doing it or some sub shop? Just vague information and requesting general information is what I got.



> I agree to use one or the other for cost/time savings, but what possible complications could arise from using both?


In a pan situation, in some cases i've done both, the cholaloy and liquid, but only liquid out about 10" from the walls. I don't think I really had to do that, but it was a heavy use shower and it fit into the process.

Some folks say one or the other and they bring up the "moisture sammich" that could arise. There's a case for that if ya think about it, but also, if ya think about it, that discredits the whole idea of a liquid working. If ya don't have faith in one, use the other.


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## JohnFRWhipple

*Red Guard Questions and the John Bridge Tile Forum*

Just Saying.

As for your question as to where the Red Guard should go. I would apply it to the walls of your shower up to 6' above grade. Two coats. I would bring it down onto the shower pan out from the walls about 4"-6" and I would reinforce the second coat with mesh (at the base where the wall meets the floor).

Custom and Wonder Board offer up a 25 year warranty on their installs so check with your local rep and ensure you use a Custom Setting Material that qualifies. Save your receipts for your clients. 








For more information of Red Guard go here.

To Contact Custom Building Products call here;

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## Bastien1337

Hey John how do you feel about the easy mat?

Ive seen it in store and my initial reaction to it is "never ever" it feels way to DIY for my tastes. I can sense having to rip it out alot in the future which could be a good thing. But to be fair I havnt really checked to far into.


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## JohnFRWhipple

I have never used it before.

I really don't have an opinion on this product. Things advertised as easy and fast always make me wonder... Make wonder if "To good to be true is to good to be true."

Anyone tried it? 

JW



Bastien1337 said:


> Hey John how do you feel about the easy mat?
> 
> Ive seen it in store and my initial reaction to it is "never ever" it feels way to DIY for my tastes. I can sense having to rip it out alot in the future which could be a good thing. But to be fair I havnt really checked to far into.


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## CO762

Bastien1337 said:


> Hey John how do you feel about the easy mat?


While I'm not John....I've used easymat, but it's a PITA to unroll and lay flat.
If they resolve those, I'd use it a lot more for smaller T/M jobs.


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## GO Remodeling

JW - JB forum has some very excellent installers as does this one. Not everyone there is an "orange koolaid" man, but they do lean toward Schluter.
That said, don't disregard any advice without weighing it's merits and deciding if it's right for you.

Most of the top posters there are still tiling and a few are "retired" (although that's a separate issue).


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## fast fred

I just use tar paper. So far so good.


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## FHS

I have used the easy mat in two different forms, the peel and stick for concrete floors (ie: clean and prep floor, paint on concrete primer and stick) acts as a crack isolation.
I have also used the mortar down kind on a gypcrete floor as to provide an uncoupling membrane. 
Been a year on the concrete, which was fairly messed up btw, and a year and a half on the gypcrete with no problems. But my money would be better spent on Ditra IMO.


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## JohnFRWhipple

*Red Guard for Shower Pans - to mesh or not to mesh*

I have been re reading my Red Guard Data sheets and wanted to ask how many of you tile men use fabric in the corners with your liquid shower pan liners.

The Data Sheet from Custom Building Products says this step is optional and I personally think this is a mistake. I also would not trust a 2" drywall tape in the corners and think a product like Laticrete's mesh or Mapei's mesh to be a far superior install.

Recent threads and conversations with a couple of tile men also raised an interesting point about mud pan shrinkage. I like the use of the reinforcement and have never skipped this step.

What do you guys like?

Here is our last shower. A little Hydro Ban and mesh fabric.










The fabric from Laticrete comes in a box with both 36" and 6" rolls. This is an optional step with Hydro Ban but worth the effort I think.










Under flood test.










In the niche and with the rest of the wall board we used stucco mesh and thinset to pre tape the seams. Only the shower pan received the extra mesh durning the waterproofing process.

I will give the entire shower a first coat of Hydro Ban and then come back the second day and use the mesh. This second coat with the mesh installed requires a longer cure time before flood testing as the corners tend to take about 24-48 hours to cure depending on jobsite temperature and air flow.

JW


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## Tech Dawg

JDub,
I haven't used the Laticrete mesh tape because you don't need to with HydroBan... I use CBU mesh tape and skim shut with 253R Gold before liquid


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## bluebird5

John did you mesh the entire pan or just the corners?


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## JohnFRWhipple

Just the corners on this one. 

You will notice a Nobel Flex drain flashing in the center

JW


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## Tech Dawg

JohnFRWhipple said:


> Just the corners on this one.
> 
> You will notice a Nobel Flex drain flashing in the center
> 
> JW


JDub,
When using the Noble flashing with liquid, did you have a lip where the flashing sat on the deck mud or set a rabbeted channel so it would come up even for the transition?


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## JohnFRWhipple

Tech Dawg said:


> JDub,
> When using the Noble flashing with liquid, did you have a lip where the flashing sat on the deck mud or set a rabbeted channel so it would come up even for the transition?


Todd the pan has a good pre-slope and when I set the Nobel Flex Flashing I feathered out the thin set from the top of the lip out to the pan about 4".

There is still a lip but it's minor and does not stop the water from free flowing to the drain.

Set the tile top last night - I'm heading back to skim out the entire base today.


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