# 1 circuit 2 breakers



## CER (Mar 26, 2009)

I have a customer who I am doing a new bathroom for and they have a unique problem I have never encountered. They said they replaced there light switch years ago and they had to shut off 2 breakers for the one switch. Now I do a lot of remodeling and new wiring but am not a journeyman electrician. What should I look for as I believe this is a safety hazard. I have to do new wiring for a new exhaust fan and will be upgrading this switch anyways but has anyone ran into this before? Is there something I should look for or test as I am checking this out? Thanks for any advice.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Sounds like there are two circuits in the house that are tied together somewhere.

Call an electrician to identify and correct the situation ASAP. Yes, it's dangerous.


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## ampman (Apr 1, 2009)

yes can be dangerous needs to be done correctly


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## wireless (Nov 2, 2006)

My guess is it is a three wire circuit. They shut the power off to the light but when they disconnected the neutral it sparked leading them to believe there are two breakers.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Sounds like it's back feeding somewhere. Had these 2 circuits been on different phases one of the 2 breakers would have tripped. The easy fix is to pull one of those lines out of the panel and into a junction box located outside of the panel. A more difficult fix would be to find where the 2 circuits meet and disconnect one or the other there.


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> Now I do a lot of remodeling and new wiring but am not a journeyman electrician.
> 
> 
> What should I look for as I believe this is a safety hazard.


Look for work that you or another unqualified person has done there.

I know it's harsh but I run into so many things that have been done by well meaning people that know just enough to be dangerous.

You can replace fixtures/devices but in my opinon, all *electrical work* should be done by *electricians*.

There are a lot of things that could cause issues like this. You can go in there, open up boxes and poke around but if you don't understand the *entire *electrical system/circuits, you will be wasting time and money.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

wireless said:


> My guess is it is a three wire circuit. They shut the power off to the light but when they disconnected the neutral it sparked leading them to believe there are two breakers.


They're not disconnecting neutrals, they're just turning breakers off.


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## olyteddy (Oct 27, 2006)

I had one of those in an apartment. Some 'professional' had jumpered between an outlet in the bedroom and one in the living room. They were on different breakers, same leg of the 240 though, thank goodness...


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## CER (Mar 26, 2009)




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## CER (Mar 26, 2009)

220/221 said:


> Look for work that you or another unqualified person has done there.
> 
> I know it's harsh but I run into so many things that have been done by well meaning people that know just enough to be dangerous.
> 
> ...


I can see you are one of the mouths on here so here is my response. I have over 20 years of electrical experience, over 50 panel boxes installed, new wiring,service entrances etc! All done to code and checked by local inspectors. I overdue any safety when it comes to electrical. I just like to ask a question before I have to chase wiring done by yes other unqualified people. It never hurts to ask people that are specific to one trade if they have ever had a similiar problem. Unfortunately you beleive I throw a ladder in the back of my truck and call myself a contractor. Maybe the one call back I had 4 years ago because a seal went in a window should tell you the quality of work I have provided for twenty years. One call back for all these years and not even a mistake on my part, well I can,t wait to offer my opinion if you ever offer a question. Thank you to all other "constructive" advice.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

CER said:


> I have a customer who I am doing a new bathroom for and they have a unique problem I have never encountered. They said they replaced there light switch years ago and they had to shut off 2 breakers for the one switch. Now I do a lot of remodeling and new wiring but am not a journeyman electrician. What should I look for as I believe this is a safety hazard. I have to do new wiring for a new exhaust fan and will be upgrading this switch anyways but has anyone ran into this before? Is there something I should look for or test as I am checking this out? Thanks for any advice.


 


CER said:


> I can see you are one of the mouths on here so here is my response. I have over 20 years of electrical experience, over 50 panel boxes installed, new wiring,service entrances etc! All done to code and checked by local inspectors. I overdue any safety when it comes to electrical. I just like to ask a question before I have to chase wiring done by yes other unqualified people. It never hurts to ask people that are specific to one trade if they have ever had a similiar problem. Unfortunately you beleive I throw a ladder in the back of my truck and call myself a contractor. Maybe the one call back I had 4 years ago because a seal went in a window should tell you the quality of work I have provided for twenty years. One call back for all these years and not even a mistake on my part, well I can,t wait to offer my opinion if you ever offer a question. Thank you to all other "constructive" advice.


You ask a question of a basically straightforward safety issue, and then take offence when people believe you are un-qualified as an electrician. Your post states that you are not an electrician, and implies that you "kind of hack around in it".

Most people who are qualified in electrical work would quickly recognize that a 110 circuit fed from two breakers was wrong and in error, and would not have to solicit the opinion of others. You set yourself up


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> I have over 20 years of electrical experience


:laughing:

Seems like you'd know exactly where to start looking.






I call BS.............but what do I know? arty:





> Maybe the one call back I had 4 years ago because _a seal went in a window_ should tell you the quality of work I have provided for twenty years


 

They must be right on the beach, huh?




:rimshot



.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Most people who are qualified in electrical work would quickly recognize that a 110 circuit fed from two breakers was wrong and in error, and would not have to solicit the opinion of others. You set yourself up


100% agreed, but...



220/221 said:


> You can replace fixtures/devices but in my opinon, all *electrical work* should be done by *electricians*.


Hogwash. Well, not really, but absolute statements ignore the exceptions that invalidate them. Before I went into construction, I spent 30 years as an electronics technician. I guarantee that I understand electricity just as well as any of you guys who have studied up and gotten your papers; probably better than many of you actually.

Residential electrical work is by and large mind-numbingly simple in terms of the actual theoretical knowledge needed to create a safe and reliable network of breakers, switches and outlets. It's well within the capabilities of any [_real, bonafide_ handyman.

Where the handyman fails and the electrician reigns supreme is in the knowledge of codes and what it takes to make the AHJ happy. _That_ is the real reason it makes sense to call in a specialist, to make a contracted job flow smoothly and get all the hoops jumped through for a simple task that Uncle Ralph could do on a Sunday afternoon if he felt like it.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> 100% agreed, but...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's a *huge chasm* between electonics theory and electrical safety and codes.

In _theory_, this will work:









Now, obviously no right-mided handyman is going to do this, but unless you have a competent knowledge of the Code, and _why_ some things are there, many installations end up being, "Well, the breaker didn't trip and it works, so it must be safe!"


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> I spent 30 years as an electronics technician. I guarantee that I understand electricity just as well as any of you guys


Electronics is not electrical construction. Electrical theory is not electrical construction.




> absolute statements ignore the exceptions


That is why I try to avoid them. There is a rather obvious qualifier that preceeds my "electricions only" statement that assures my statement is not absolute. I am generally very aware of this kind of thing.




Here's some tips for CER. 

Never trust what a homeowner tells you. 
Start by determinuing if it does take two breakers to kill the power. 
If it is a MWBC, find the home run jbox.
If not, look for any work that may have been done by a handyman. They are notorious for installing fans and recessed cans.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> There's a *huge chasm* between electonics theory and electrical safety and codes.
> ...
> Now, obviously no right-mided handyman is going to do this, but unless you have a competent knowledge of the Code, and _why_ some things are there, many installations end up being, "Well, the breaker didn't trip and it works, so it must be safe!"


Ooh, that's purty! :thumbsup:

Ironically though, that points up how silly the all-knowing Code can be in some instances. If I, in my infinite wisdom, decide to run a .3 watt nightlight fed by a hunk of coax, in practical terms there's not a lot of difference between that and a run of 12 gauge Romex. The danger comes in when someone else comes along and decides to run a space heater and a toaster off the same circuit.

And really, that's what the codes do more than anything else. They protect others from unknowingly assuming that a standard-looking outlet (or whatever) is anything but that, behind the scenes. 

I have no problem with that, but the fact is that as anyone who works in this field knows, there are uncounted thousands of "violations" like that which work just fine for decades. 

Oh, and I'm definitely not going to let you have a "gimme" on the idea that there's a chasm between electronics theory and electrical safety. The very _basis_ of all electrical safety guidelines is based on theoretical calculations! Where the heck do you think all of those formulas came from?

Can you tell I'm in an argumentative mood tonight? :shifty:


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

At least they wrapped the screw terminal in the right direction.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

220/221 said:


> Electronics is not electrical construction. Electrical theory is not electrical construction.


Granted. I had a teacher way back when who had been an engineer. He could fill a blackboard with formulas as fast as he could write, but was totally clueless about how to fix a TV. Nevertheless, there are many of us in the real world who have the capacity to tie theory and practice together.



> That is why I try to avoid them. There is a rather obvious qualifier that preceeds my "electricions only" statement that assures my statement is not absolute. I am generally very aware of this kind of thing.


Guess I missed that...


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Granted. I had a teacher way back when who had been an engineer. He could fill a blackboard with formulas as fast as he could write, but was totally clueless about how to fix a TV. Nevertheless, there are many of us in the real world who have the capacity to tie theory and practice together....


Now a critical question....... Are you licensed?


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

CER said:


> I can see you are one of the mouths on here so here is my response. I have over 20 years of electrical experience, over 50 panel boxes installed, new wiring,service entrances etc! All done to code and checked by local inspectors. I overdue any safety when it comes to electrical. I just like to ask a question before I have to chase wiring done by yes other unqualified people. It never hurts to ask people that are specific to one trade if they have ever had a similiar problem. Unfortunately you beleive I throw a ladder in the back of my truck and call myself a contractor. Maybe the one call back I had 4 years ago because a seal went in a window should tell you the quality of work I have provided for twenty years. *One call back for all these years and not even a mistake on my part,* well I can,t wait to offer my opinion if you ever offer a question. Thank you to all other "constructive" advice.



Wish I had the same luck.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

CER. I have never come across this- but there is definatly a safety hazard here & I would talk the homeowner into having me investigate & repair it. And the only way to do it-is to trace it out, & find the problem & fix it.
As far as other replies going into " qualified electricians" there is a very gray area there. I have seen many with "water-theology" & "code freaks" that were not very good in the field. I have worked on stuff that a Electrical contrator had installed, that he knowingly took shortcuts & went against code. To me that is worse than an "unqualified" person making a mistake. I have seen electrical panels installed by "handyman" that were Superb. 

Just do it !!


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Now a critical question....... Are you licensed?


Not required in PA. :thumbsup:

But electrical inspections _are_ required, and I have yet to flunk one (that'll probably happen on Monday now). I do everything from service upgrades to wiring complete additions with kitchen & bath areas.

I'm a good reader, have the code books, and am absolutely anal about doing my homework before and during a project. It helped tremendously that I was mentored when I began working in the trades by an old-timer who now accepts me as an equal. :thumbsup:

Apologies to all for the thread hijack; I was in a strange mood last night.

Getting back to the OP, I have a client right now who has that exact same two-breaker situation. In his case, it was discovered during a kitchen remodel, when the new dishwasher was delivered and installed. That circuit, with its own breaker, is somehow tied in with the counter outlets on a different breaker.

I've been nagging him for two months now to let me find and correct it, but so far he's had other priorities. <sigh>


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## ampman (Apr 1, 2009)

when i ran a crew for a big e.c. if a new guy said he had a degree in electronics first thing he would do is grab a shovel


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> when the new dishwasher was delivered and installed. That circuit, with its own breaker, is somehow tied in with the counter outlets on a different breaker.


There is a very good chance that the DW/disp circuit is run with a countertop recep circuit in a 12/3 cable.

The circuits may have been tied together in the JB that has the disp switch and a recep in it and the two circuits eneded up on the same phase.

I did a panel change once and when I put everything back together I naturally installed a 12/3 on different legs, right next to each other. I turned everything on and had a phase to phase short.

The cable supplied the washer and dryer. For some reason they felt the need to have separate circuits for each (never seen that before) so they ran a 12/3 to a duplex recep but didn't break out the tab. They then installed the circuits on the same phase and all was well for 30 years until I came along and installed it correctly.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

220/221 said:


> There is a very good chance that the DW/disp circuit is run with a countertop recep circuit in a 12/3 cable.


Y'know, that makes a _lot_ of sense. I installed designer switches & outlets for that remodel, and remember being struck by how much [apparently] unnecessary 12/3 I saw in various boxes. If he ever gets around to letting me work on it, I'll look for that. Thanks!

I'll keep bugging him. At the least, I need to know whether I fell asleep at the wheel when doing that work, and *I* was the goofball responsible for the miswiring. :shutup:


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## CER (Mar 26, 2009)

*Customer confusion*

I would like to thank all on there input for this thread but I need to clear some things up. The customer did in fact lead me astray therefor me asking a stupid question for having all my experience. Yes I knew it was a safety issue but he talked a half hour about this switch and I was unable to all he said into my question. I also worded the question so I sounded dumb. All in all he had a local electrical company work on his system and he made it sound like there was a reason for this two breaker system. So when I show up to do tthis remodel I am under an impression of not understanding something because of this customers story. So please forgive me for sounding stupid but it sounded stupid when I heard it. Anyways it ended up that after I got there for the remodel and started to research the problem it ended up being so simple I do feel dumb. I took the cover plate off. saw one lone wire feeding the switch and no wires going to the outlet. I assumed right there the customer tried a home job and made a easy blunder for not knowing electrical. He simply tried to wire over from the switch and couldn't figure out why his light came on every time he plugged something in. Most of you already have the picture from here but I double checked this 2 breaker bunk and it was only on one circuit. I disbelieve any local company worked there either. So sorry for all the controversey over nothing. I will keep my mouth shut next time as some of you are so miserable with your comments that I would rather grab a hot wire to see if its on than testing it or asking a question!!


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