# Poured a Footing Yesterday- Today It Has Cracks...?



## HammerOn (Jul 25, 2013)

I poured (pumped) two sets of footings yesterday. Went out today and one set has quiet a few cracks, most running length wise down the center. 

-It doesn't have rebar except for uprights on 40" centers.

DETAILS
-24" wide x 12" thick

-flat, no steps.

-It did drop to just below freezing last night 

I assume it froze. 

Why did one crack and not the other?

How big an issue is it?

What can I do to prevent this in the future?


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## baerconstructio (Feb 24, 2011)

No rebar!? 

I've always seen at minimum 2- #4 running lengthwise in footings.


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## HammerOn (Jul 25, 2013)

It's a new GC, I'm working for. I did the estimate up with just that 2- #4 length wise. He said, no bar needed. 5th house that I know of that he built this way. His engineer and the city inspectors approved it... I would certainly be less concerned if they had rebar.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

No rebar? That's not a footing, that's some well consolidated soil. Rebar or not, cracks in a day is weird. Like there was movement while it was setting.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

No rebar does not sound right for a footing approved or not.

What was the mix you pumped?

It does sound more like CDF and odds are it was pumped way too wet to make it flow easier/quicker in the trench.


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## HammerOn (Jul 25, 2013)

Came from Southern Concrete Materials. 3000psi pump mix with 3/8" stone. 

As for too wet, it's a possibility but we did 2 foundations side by side, didn't see a change in consistency.

The one with cracks, did have a sandy-er soil....?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

What was the slump and mix? 

Generally when cracks appear withing 24 hours it was a wet mix, like griz said. 

I don't pretend to know your locale or what is acceptable there, but I always put 4 #5 rebar with stirrups in footings or atleast 4 #5 tied to stakes. Steel is pretty cheap, especially when you consider what is going on top of it.


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## HammerOn (Jul 25, 2013)

Used a reputable pumping contractor, I let them do there thing. I'm not sure about the slump they went with but the mix didn't seem excessively wet. 

One thing is for certain... it is cracked. 

How big a deal is this since it doesn't have rebar?

I might stop by and take some pictures if I get over that way before dark.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

HammerOn said:


> Used a reputable pumping contractor, I let them do there thing. I'm not sure about the slump they went with but the mix didn't seem excessively wet.
> 
> One thing is for certain... it is cracked.
> 
> ...


Is it for venner stone or to hold the house up? 

You should always check the slump yourself and approve the consistency before you allow it to be pumped. It's your azz.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

HammerOn said:


> Used a reputable pumping contractor, I let them do there thing. I'm not sure about the slump they went with but the mix didn't seem excessively wet.
> 
> One thing is for certain... it is cracked.
> 
> ...


How stable/compact was the ground where the cracked one was poured?

You said it was sandy-er, was it compacted, native soil?

Any Geo-Tech done?

No rebar could be huge depending on how it needs to perform.

How big/deep are the cracks? Use a wire, hacksaw blade etc to tell.

Another scenario, although long odds, is a bad mix.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

rip and re-pour is your only solution - this time ensure the slump is correct and use rebar please 

Can't imagine an inspector signed off on that...


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

It could be a bad mix if it came from southern. He could have gotten a load someone else rejected and he got it. What plant did it come from and how far from plant was the pour.


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## cdkyle (Jul 12, 2009)

HammerOn said:


> His engineer and the city inspectors approved it.


No way could a licensed engineer and a bonafide city inspector sign off on something like that. Unless of course their getting paid off. Poor future home buyer.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I don't know about your city, but we have to have everything documented and our cities dictate to us how much water can be in the mix. It's not at our discretion like in the old days. Hell back then the finishers called out how much water. It's very clear that they will add the water based on time and ease of finishing.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

We've poured footers with no rebar, engineered govt. job. Engineer said "where's it gonna go" This is buried both sides stem wall. I kind of agree with him. Not how we do it, but I don't know that I would call it wrong. Just saying it may not be as wrong as you might think.

It would have to be pretty damn cold for that mud to freeze the first night. If you didn't think to cover it, I doubt it was cold enough.

Cracks down the middle of the length seems strange.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> I don't know about your city, but we have to have everything documented and our cities dictate to us how much water can be in the mix. It's not at our discretion like in the old days. Hell back then the finishers called out how much water. It's very clear that they will add the water based on time and ease of finishing.


I handle the mud the way my grandpa did long before I was born, I am the guy writing the check and I decide the consistency. The finishers (at least here) always want more water. 

My second pour as the lead guy was when I was 19 on a boat dock crew. The lead concrete guy almost came after me with a shovel. Lol 

Good thing he didn't


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

donerightwyo said:


> We've poured footers with no rebar, engineered govt. job. Engineer said "where's it gonna go" This is buried both sides stem wall. I kind of agree with him. Not how we do it, but I don't know that I would call it wrong. Just saying it may not be as wrong as you might think.
> 
> It would have to be pretty damn cold for that mud to freeze the first night. If you didn't think to cover it, I doubt it was cold enough.
> 
> Cracks down the middle of the length seems strange.


The reason I said "locale" in my first post. 

Things are done different everywhere


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Here's my theory: it was cold enough that the vertical rebar conducted the freeze down into the footing overnight. The footing splits ala feathers and wedges. Is the split in line with the uprights? I'm completely making it up, of course, but I'll bet I could make it happen that way on purpose if I wanted. Especially if it was cold enough to slow down the cure. Especially if someone bumped the verticals a couple times and they were a little sloshy. Just a thought, anyway.

Also, just because piling on is fun, the absence of rebar is kind of surprising.

Edit: Although at 40" centers it's a little less likely. Second thoughts. Third thoughts - it's the most likely direction of the split.


Edit: Well, it was an idea. I don't think my theory works, having seen the pictures.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

Too much speculation, we need some pictures!!!


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

Was the footing formed with lumber or was it earth formed?


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Did you pour the footing on already frozen soil, because that will do it?


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

I would suspect the mix. I'll bet it was too "hot." Once I had a patio start cracking within a few hours. We had a couple trucks in the delivery. The first truck was a newly mixed load. They sent him out. For the second load they loaded a truck when it came back to the plant. The second truck wasn't empty. They didn't bother to clean out the truck, they only added more concrete to the existing concrete in the truck. So the second load had some new concrete and some concrete that had been mixing in the truck for who knows how long. 
This may not have happened in your case, but I think the mix was off.


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## HammerOn (Jul 25, 2013)

I was on-site when they were inspected, the engineer was here too. Two thumbs up lol. I'm not qualified to design them. If the engineer stamps the plan, away we go.

These are dug in, earth bound footings. Dug down 18"+.

I ask my laborer; who raked and smoothed as the pump went, and he said they used a 7 slump.

An interesting fact. I had one truck show up 30 min before the pump. So I had them wet it down pretty heavy and we shot it out of the chute and raked it out. No cracks at all in that area. Just a couple on that foundation period.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

My guess....ground sucked the water out of a wet mix.

Don't second guess or rely on us "arm chair" engineers.
Call the engineer out, have him look at it, he will give thumbs up or thumbs down.

What kind of building is going up? Rancher?, two story? full basement? crawl space?

A rancher on a crawl and I bet the engineer says keep going.
If he does, have him sign off on your photos.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

TimNJ said:


> My guess....ground sucked the water out of a wet mix.
> 
> Don't second guess or rely on us "arm chair" engineers.
> Call the engineer out, have him look at it, he will give thumbs up or thumbs down.
> ...


What's going on next?


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

We don't put rebar in foundation walls around here. 8' high, 4' frost. I don't get it either. WA state was crazy with rebar and inspections.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Rebar was not required around here till the 1980's. Many, many houses were built with out it. Heck I've worked on foundations that had no footing at all.

Those cracks look like shrinkage cracks to me, for the reasons already discussed.

I doubt you will ever have an issue, but follow the advice of your engineer.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

CarpenterSFO said:


> What's going on next?


:blink:


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

TimNJ said:


> :blink:


Slab? Walls? Block? That was my question.


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Slab? Walls? Block? That was my question.


I knew what you meant and was thinking the same thing.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

There are two kinds of concrete, concrete that's cracked and concrete that's gonna crack, that looks like one of them to me


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## HammerOn (Jul 25, 2013)

12' tall full basement. 12" block. Single story. I'm in Western NC by the way.


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## HammerOn (Jul 25, 2013)

Love that saying by the way. I use it all the time.

Two kinds of concrete: 1)Cracked 2) Gonna Crack


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

HammerOn said:


> 12' tall full basement. 12" block. Single story. I'm in Western NC by the way.


12' of block, at least partially grouted and reinforced? If you had foundation problems, I wouldn't expect them to be caused by those cracks. You could ask your engineer, though.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

HammerOn said:


> Came from Southern Concrete Materials. 3000psi pump mix with 3/8" stone.
> 
> As for too wet, it's a possibility but we did 2 foundations side by side, didn't see a change in consistency.
> 
> The one with cracks, did have a sandy-er soil....?



.
With 3/8 aggregate and 3000 psi. and the "possibility" of too wet,sounds more like masonry grout than a footing mix .:laughing:


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

Is it in Asheville


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## QCCI (Jan 28, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> There are two kinds of concrete, concrete that's cracked and concrete that's gonna crack, that looks like one of them to me


My Dad has been a concrete contractor for almost 40 years now and he got his start from my grandpa. He always told me that concrete does two things. It gets hard and it cracks, and yep sure enough he's right.


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

QCCI said:


> My Dad has been a concrete contractor for almost 40 years now and he got his start from my grandpa. He always told me that concrete does two things. It gets hard and it cracks, and yep sure enough he's right.


Third thing: No one's gonna steal it.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Slab? Walls? Block? That was my question.



I don't know. "Not my job mon":laughing:


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## bob hutson (Mar 16, 2013)

just my opinion mud was too hot, I have had this on a smaller scale on some patches..


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## jdorpaudi (Nov 11, 2010)

TimNJ said:


> My guess....ground sucked the water out of a wet mix.


thats the one.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I would leave it, but that's just me


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Doesn't look like a biggie, dude. 

The cracks aren't continuous and they aren't going across where it will heave. 

The engineer i use would make me core it and send it off. Pvssy. Lol


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

There is really not much stress on the concrete footing. The sand could have sucked out the water from the mix to create shrinkage problems.

All the loads on the OPs strip footing are distributed out from the bottom of the wall at 45 degrees, so the footing is not in bending and the load transfer to he soil is just shear. - A narrow strip footing is just consolidated sand gravel and a little cement to transfer the the vertical load to the soil.

After wall construction, the 12" block wall will tie everything into a very strong and rigid invented "T" beam (upward stem 12" thick and 12'-0" high bonded to a 12"x24" footing) that really has little stress on it.

All Weather Wood Foundations (AWWF) with a 2x6 "footing" laid flat on a rock/gravel base were approved by most codes in the late 1960's. That is just a 8'-0" high 2x6 wood wall with a 6" wide bearing and no "tee" action and no concrete at all.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Was the pump too small?..using small agg. for 18" thick footer is something I wouldn't do. 

The finish textures looks like it was really wet, maybe over vibed too and just left to cure out and crack. 

Too wet and too small of aggregate if you ask me.


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## muskoka guy (Nov 16, 2013)

how do you maintain your heights pouring it into the dirt. Around here if the footing is off 1/4 inch the masons a whining up a storm. We use form boards and strip them when dry. I like the idea of no forms if soil conditions allow but wonder about the heights. What about foundation weepers. Ours usually go beside the footing.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

Rebate grade stakes


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

superseal said:


> Was the pump too small?..using small agg. for 18" thick footer is something I wouldn't do.
> 
> The finish textures looks like it was really wet, maybe over vibed too and just left to cure out and crack.
> 
> Too wet and too small of aggregate if you ask me.


 :thumbsup:




That was exactly my sentiments with my previous post.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

I thing the footer was down 18" not 18" thick 3/8 stone is common in pump mix in wnc. He said the mud came from southern concrete . My bet it is mix


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

We use 3/8 through the pump as well.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> We use 3/8 through the pump as well.






Not to be a wise guy,if a pumping company told me they could not pump 3/4 rock I would look for a new pump guy. The larger the stone the stronger the mix (in most cases) I prime the pump with a bag of straight portland and go with a plasticizer in the mix. Never had any problems.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

Back when I was working for a gc we where pouring some sidewalks and southern sent the cement and it smelled like cat pee the gc wanted to rejected it but he was told if he sent it back he would not get a load for a week. So we poured it had it placed by 8am it was the end of may high of 75 and at 7 pm was to wet to broom finish


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

fjn said:


> Not to be a wise guy,if a pumping company told me they could not pump 3/4 rock I would look for a new pump guy. The larger the stone the stronger the mix (in most cases) I prime the pump with a bag of straight portland and go with a plasticizer in the mix. Never had any problems.


 Does the use of larger coarse aggregate in a mix tend to produce concrete of higher strength?
A recent report by the National Ready Mixed Concrete Association reached the following conclusions: 1. At a given water ratio, within the range employed in most structural concrete, smaller maximum sizes of aggregate will tend to produce higher concrete strengths than larger ones. 2. The larger sizes will require less mixing water and hence, for a given cement factor, will produce concrete of lower water-ratio than the smaller sizes. 3. The advantage of small aggregate in the water-ratio strength relationship may or may not be sufficient to offset the effects of its higher mixing water demand. It appears that optimum maximum size, so far as strength is concerned, will vary for different aggregates, different cement factors, different test ages and probably other conditions. 4. A realistic appraisal of the recent data for several different aggregates must lead to the conclusion that size of aggregate, within a reasonable range, is of less importance to concrete strength than other aggregate characteristics. Even in the leaner mix, where the larger aggregate gave higher strength, the advantage was inconsequential in relation to strength differences between aggregates of the same size from different sources.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> Does the use of larger coarse aggregate in a mix tend to produce concrete of higher strength?
> A recent report by the National Ready Mixed Concrete Association reached the following conclusions: 1. At a given water ratio, within the range employed in most structural concrete, smaller maximum sizes of aggregate will tend to produce higher concrete strengths than larger ones. 2. The larger sizes will require less mixing water and hence, for a given cement factor, will produce concrete of lower water-ratio than the smaller sizes. 3. The advantage of small aggregate in the water-ratio strength relationship may or may not be sufficient to offset the effects of its higher mixing water demand. It appears that optimum maximum size, so far as strength is concerned, will vary for different aggregates, different cement factors, different test ages and probably other conditions. 4. A realistic appraisal of the recent data for several different aggregates must lead to the conclusion that size of aggregate, within a reasonable range, is of less importance to concrete strength than other aggregate characteristics. Even in the leaner mix, where the larger aggregate gave higher strength, the advantage was inconsequential in relation to strength differences between aggregates of the same size from different sources.






Larger and smaller in aggregate is relative. What do they mean by larger ? In the day,some concrete was batched with 2.5 + " stone. One thing that is a given,the larger aggregate takes less of the cement paste to coat the stone thereby in essence yielding a richer mix than a smaller aggregate,water to cement ration should ideally be calibrated accordingly.


Also around here (N.W Indiana) 3/8 stone means round pea gravel. That does not have the angular shape to lock in the way crushed aggregate does. Think gluing bowling balls together.


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## wnc viking (Aug 4, 2011)

Here in wnc 3/8 is a crushed stone


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

We use pea gravel mix for sidewalks because it looks better. But I tell the #1 or #2 stone then round or crushed, and how many bags


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

fjn said:


> Larger and smaller in aggregate is relative. What do they mean by larger ? In the day,some concrete was batched with 2.5 + " stone. One thing that is a given,the larger aggregate takes less of the cement paste to coat the stone thereby in essence yielding a richer mix than a smaller aggregate,water to cement ration should ideally be calibrated accordingly.
> 
> 
> Also around here (N.W Indiana) 3/8 stone means round pea gravel. That does not have the angular shape to lock in the way crushed aggregate does. Think gluing bowling balls together.


3/8 generally means pea gravel here, too. Now, I've cut and busted holes in concrete made with 3/8 pea gravel, and once cured it was nothing that a basement and single floor could cause to fail. If the mix was otherwise messed up, too wet for example, that's another thing.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Concrete and drywall are a lot alike ..There just like a woman ..You never really know what's gonna happen!


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

muskoka guy said:


> how do you maintain your heights pouring it into the dirt. Around here if the footing is off 1/4 inch the masons a whining up a storm. We use form boards and strip them when dry. I like the idea of no forms if soil conditions allow but wonder about the heights. What about foundation weepers. Ours usually go beside the footing.



A lot of clay type soil around my parts. You end up with a "form" when you dig.

I always use grade spikes. Set them about every two feet both sides of the trench, and spray paint in pink for high visibility.


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## SouthonBeach (Oct 18, 2012)

wnc viking said:


> Back when I was working for a gc we where pouring some sidewalks and southern sent the cement and it smelled like cat pee the gc wanted to rejected it but he was told if he sent it back he would not get a load for a week. So we poured it had it placed by 8am it was the end of may high of 75 and at 7 pm was to wet to broom finish


Did some work in NC years ago. Had a big 2 day pour and started out with southern, had so many problems we fired them half way through. Would never use them again.


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