# How do you handle a cheap penny pincher? -UPDATE-



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

WTF is the point of this thread?

Did I miss something or is a low baller crying about being low balled? 

Some low baller dicked around with some loser that deals with low ballers and wasted his time and got taken advantage of while he was low balling everybody else and a better low baller, low balled him?

Boo Hoo.


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## CCCo. (Jul 19, 2009)

neolitic said:


> *A* license!
> We should be so lucky! :laughing:
> 
> 
> ...


Everybody gets a slice,...:shifty:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

neolitic said:


> *A* license!
> We should be so lucky! :laughing:
> 
> 
> ...



The part that gets me is paying X amount to register with each county I work in around here. 

To get a permit in the next town over, I have to go to the county building department and get one, then go to the mayors office/building in that town and get another one.

Oh well, still beats the hoops you have to jump through constantly in Allen County.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> WTF is the point of this thread?
> 
> Did I miss something or is a low baller crying about being low balled?
> 
> ...


You mentioned *low-ball* in one form or another seven times!


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I have to charge that much just to cover my expenses each week.
> 
> If I am doing a job by the hour (rare situation but, necessary sometimes) I am usually more then what you pay your plumber by the hour.
> 
> I know people that think 15 bucks is a good number, I am just not sure how they really make any money.


For my area (amish capital of the world for those of you who are about to go through the roof), I make great money. I get paid $15/hr from my boss. He is bonded and insured and pretty much doesn't make any money off of our heads because he sucks at business. We do T and M a lot and I think he charges $20/hr for one of us with the exception of when he does roofs he charges $25/hr. 

If you can believe it, I would say he is in the top 5% of top paying contractors around here.

Right now most of the amish around here are working for 10-12/hr. No comp, no insurance, no taxes.

I know what you mean by people thinking 30/hr is ridiculous. They don't realize that they can hire someone like you or me for 30/hr and still come out cheaper than the amish most of the time. Bidding is the way to go.

Just out of curiosity, what do you charge/hr. The best paid guy around here that i know of can get about $45 consistently and pay his sons in the twenties, but that is bidding only. I don't think he would even take a t&m job.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)




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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> WTF is the point of this thread?
> 
> Did I miss something or is a low baller crying about being low balled?
> 
> ...


Yeah, that is pretty much the point of this thread. Your sympathy is greatly appreciated. That was just what I needed.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Spencer said:


> For my area (amish capital of the world for those of you who are about to go through the roof), I make great money. I get paid $15/hr from my boss. He is bonded and insured and pretty much doesn't make any money off of our heads because he sucks at business. We do T and M a lot and I think he charges $20/hr for one of us with the exception of when he does roofs he charges $25/hr.
> 
> If you can believe it, I would say he is in the top 5% of top paying contractors around here.
> 
> ...



$30/hr is ridiculous, Double that an add some to it and you get close to what someone with real talent, tools, knowledge and know how will cost you.

My brother makes 20 bucks an hour pouring and stamping concrete, he does work for the high ball outfit in the area though but, he is expected to act like a high dollar outfit and keep the quality up.

Sounds like your boss is either cheap or shady.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Spencer said:


> Yeah, that is pretty much the point of this thread. Your sympathy is greatly appreciated. That was just what I needed.


He actually sugar coated it for you - he must like you.

Usually he isn't that nice to guys with under 5,000 posts.

You got off easy.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

JumboJack said:


>



Is he watching a McCulley Culkin movie there?:laughing:


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Is he watching a McCulley Culkin movie there?:laughing:


I don't know if the comment or the video is creepier....:laughing:


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## Spencer (Jul 6, 2005)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> $30/hr is ridiculous, Double that an add some to it and you get close to what someone with real talent, tools, knowledge and know how will cost you.
> 
> My brother makes 20 bucks an hour pouring and stamping concrete, he does work for the high ball outfit in the area though but, he is expected to act like a high dollar outfit and keep the quality up.
> 
> Sounds like your boss is either cheap or shady.


He is about mid line on quality and price. His cliental are not typically cheap but they aren't people who are going to pay top dollar either. 

His weakness is that he always takes the hit if it makes the customer happy. He is very ethical but doesn't do well financially when everything is said and done.

A lot of the things he does wouldn't be how I would do them but he has made it for thirty years and right now while most guys don't have work for next week we are booked through the winter and then some already.

Biggest thing I have learned from him is consistent business ethics and trustworthyness = job security. People don't necessarily call him because he does the best work, they call him because they trust him.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

So........ Your boss charges $20 an hour and is bonded and insured, and you charge $27 and are neither?? Why would anyone even use you???

Let me make a broad observation about your "boss". At the end of the year do you get a W2 or a 1099?


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Spencer said:


> People don't necessarily call him because he does the best work, they call him because they trust him.


I think I speak for most of us here when I say I think we would like to be called for both reasons....


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Spencer said:


> Yeah, that is pretty much the point of this thread. Your sympathy is greatly appreciated. That was just what I needed.


How much sympathy do you have for one of my guys when I have to tell him there won't be any holiday turkeys on the table for you, your wife and for your wheel chair bound son with MS, lupis and brain cancer, cause we lost another bathroom remodel to some lowballer who works illegally and undercuts legitimate companies with legitimate business expenses?

Oh and, yeah, that low-baller we lost the work to last week is on contractor talk bawling about being low-balled. :no:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Spencer said:


> For my area (amish capital of the world for those of you who are about to go through the roof), *I make great money*. I get paid *$15/hr*......


I just noticed this....15.00 an hour is great money?Are you 17 and still living at home?:blink:


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

JumboJack said:


> I just noticed this....15.00 an hour is great money?Are you 17 and still living at home?:blink:


from his attitude and responses, I was guessing 19 and still at home.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Spencer said:


> He is about mid line on quality and price. His cliental are not typically cheap but they aren't people who are going to pay top dollar either.
> 
> His weakness is that he always takes the hit if it makes the customer happy. He is very ethical but doesn't do well financially when everything is said and done.
> 
> ...


Wow. That's what you got out of him? 

I hope I'm not the only one here just speachless at this point.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> I hope I'm not the only one here just speachless at this point.


No, not in the least.

Careful though, Mike, he told me it must be a nice view on my "high horse". Guess you must ride that same horse...


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

side saddle

My horse is called 'made it the hard way', I'm sure yours has a similar name.


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## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> Oh, cry me a river how hard it is or imposible it is.
> 
> Just say that's the path you took and cause you chose it, it must be what everybody else has to do too.
> 
> ...


Nah Mike, I'm not crying.

I don't pontificate, and I don't roll stones at people breaking into the trades. Just accepting reality. I encourage it. We need fresh faces to replace the broken down bitter ones :whistling.

Also, I'm legal bud. Always have been, 1099s are legal... sorry. Comp, insurance, license, permits, contracts, RRP... got everything soon as I could, soon as I knew of it. 

Maybe the problem is people who overreact when they feel threatened. We all get pissed when we get underbid by a greener competitor. The market corrects itself. Is that reason to have a temper tantrum and name-call like a child? "You" are a professional? .... please....


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Jaf said:


> Nah Mike, I'm not crying.
> 
> I don't pontificate, and I don't roll stones at people breaking into the trades. Just accepting reality. I encourage it. We need fresh faces to replace the broken down bitter ones :whistling.
> 
> ...


1099s are legal? Maybe. Depends, they certainly are the most abused area of our industry, if you are 1099ing everybody then you certainly are going to be more than likely doing it illegally.

Why would anybody get pissed over being underbid by a greener competitor and when was that ever the subject?

Let's stick to your point - you should have said everybody gets pissed being underbid by an illegal competitor not a greener one. Nobody said a thing about greener, but you were the one rationalizing our industry saying that everybody starts off illegal.

Under bid by a legal competitor is fine. That's a level playing field. Under bid by an illegal one who reduces his costs by not paying WC, GL, using illegals, paying under the table or yes... 1099 everybody when they are really employees to avoid employment taxes is not a level playing field.

Get it yet? Stick to your point that illegal is fine, everybody does it, that's your motto.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Jaf said:


> Uh, Is Spence the only guy on this forum who started his contractor career by moonlighting?
> 
> I doubt it.
> 
> ...


When I read this I had to comment.

I started the old fashioned way, it was a decision made by the whole family, and we were very very broke. I have a wife and three kids and we discussed this while eating dinner over the course of a couple weeks. After looking at our finances it seemed impossible for the most part but that's why they call it risk.

RISK= If I fail it's my own fault

Anyhow, this list you made is not accurate and the assumtions are not either. Many people like myself had family and jobs both of which we were very commited to, and because of that we didn't do "side jobs". When my family and I decided to "go into business" we all took the risk and still are, we were flat broke and it wasn't until lately we started making money and finally reaping some reward. Was I legal? Hell yeah I was legal, that's the "tough" part of being an adult....you choose the hard road because it's the right thing to do. A famouse moto at WestPoint Army Academy is "choose the harder right over the easier wrong" and it's one of my favorite. That list you wrote out leaves out everybody that works there tail off for years because they startel legaly and put everything into it they had and made there families pay the price with it. It feels good to pay taxes and follow the rules, I can go to bed each night knowing I chose the right path, the hard path, so that's my response to the poll. 

So lets add the letter G to the list to include all of us.

G.) Make decision, quit job, risk everything, spend everything to find out it's still not enough, family is wondering how long it's gonna take because they need to buy clothes, pay taxes, work 10-12 hours a day, make tons of mistakes mostly expensive ones, on Sunday play with the kids while icing down sore joints and muscles but it's worth it because it's the American way.

Yea, please add that to the list so I feel like part of the group.


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## Bigpapa05 (Jul 10, 2010)

This is better than Jerry Springer


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## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> 1099s are legal? Maybe. Depends, they certainly are the most abused area of our industry, if you are 1099ing everybody then you certainly are going to be more than likely doing it illegally.
> 
> Why would anybody get pissed over being underbid by a greener competitor and when was that ever the subject?
> 
> ...


We're getting closer...

My motto is not "illegal is fine". If that was true, why would I be bending over backwards to be legal? As I said, I have worked to get all the licenses and insurances. 

Am I totally legal...nope... Mass just passed its own RRP rule, I only have the federal registration, haven't done the paperwork to transfer it to Mass yet. I'm not it compliance, does that make me a crook? Maybe, but my intent is to be compliant. I've found that in order to be totally legal you have to proactively work at it, and I do.

I see and hear of people constantly who are not working legally. I believe its worth taking a step back and considering their circumstances. I think most would go legal with constructive advice. I think calling out newer business as "hacks", does the trade a dis-service. Why not reserve that for businesses that have been around for a long time and still aren't legal, and never intend on going legal.

I agree with your take on the 1099s, it is abused. To my (biased) opinion, I'm not abusing it. My lawyer specializes in construction law, and I've brought my concerns up with him. *All* the people I work with contract with more than just myself. I also pay them way above what an employee would make, and the rate changes depending on the job. I also use subcontracts for *each* job, that spells out the relationship. I should point out that at times, I work for some of them as a subcontractor on their jobs.

Despite this, I still carry comp insurance, just in case. I am considering hiring a full time employee. In my circumstances a full-time helper would make me *more* competitive, not less. But before I hire an employee, I want to know how to do it legally. It entails more than a w-2.

IMO being legal makes you more competitive, not less. Wanna give me a motto? I'd prefer that one.

Sorry to bump heads, but I'm not a fan of the "holmes on holmes" mentality. Jumping to conclusions that every contractor is a crook and incompetent, disparages our trade further. If we want to be treated as professionals, we need to point people in the right direction, not throw mud at every opportunity.


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## handyhands (Sep 8, 2008)

Jaf said:


> We're getting closer...
> 
> My motto is not "illegal is fine". If that was true, why would I be bending over backwards to be legal? As I said, I have worked to get all the licenses and insurances.
> 
> ...


Jaf=1
Finley=0
:laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Jaf said:


> We're getting closer...
> 
> My motto is not "illegal is fine". If that was true, why would I be bending over backwards to be legal? As I said, I have worked to get all the licenses and insurances.
> 
> ...


There isn't a single thing you just said that has anything to do with any of the replys you had to me or mine to you.

You're a hack if you're new?

Holmes on holmes mentality?

Your 1099 methodology?

Your RRP status?

Here is the subject again :



Jaf said:


> Uh, Is Spence the only guy on this forum who started his contractor career by moonlighting?
> 
> I doubt it.
> 
> ...





Jaf said:


> From my experience it seems that the most likely progression for a residential contractor would be:
> 
> 1) Working as an employee (w-2)
> 2) Working as a subcontractor (1099)
> ...





Mike Finley said:


> Oh, cry me a river how hard it is or imposible it is.
> 
> Just say that's the path you took and cause you chose it, it must be what everybody else has to do too.
> 
> ...


 
Let me sum it up for you one more time -

Your motto is - 

*#1) NOBODY can start a business in home improvements LEGALLY.*

5 people responded with evidence you're rationalization wasn't true for them either.

Nobody needs to be illegal to work in our industry. A business is a business, doesn't matter if you're a carpenter or selling hotdogs, basic business knowledge is availalble. Construction specific education is available. Nobody is obvlivious to what they are doing. 

But guys like you are the root of the issue. 

"Nobody can start legally, so hey, relax, everybody is doing it." 

That doesn't help and if you're so interested in pointing people in the right direction, why is there not a single post on this thread with you doing so for ole Spence? How about pointing him in the right direction instead of telling him, don't worry about it, everybody is exactly the same as you?


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## CCCo. (Jul 19, 2009)

handyhands said:


> Jaf=1
> Finley=0
> :laughing:


I'm rooting for Finley all the way. :thumbsup:


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

CCCo. said:


> I'm rooting for Finley all the way. :thumbsup:


x2 :thumbup:


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## handyhands (Sep 8, 2008)

I just think it's funny seeing grown men getting their panties all in a bunch.:laughing:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Jaf said:


> Uh, Is Spence the only guy on this forum who started his contractor career by moonlighting?
> 
> I doubt it.
> 
> ...


None of the above for me Skippy....I worked my butt off for a couple GC's for many years.While I was still working I studied for my license,got bonded,got insurance (looking back I laugh when I remember the insurance agent asking me my projected first year sales,I said around 750k:laughing: he said maybe want to guesstimate just a bit lower so we went with 225k....I did 80k:laughing and then passed my test.After I got my license I continued to work for the GC for a short time...

Then when I had some capital off I went....


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

No way man...it's _impossible_ to do it that way,_ no one_ does it that way. :whistling


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## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

Mike Finley said:


> There isn't a single thing you just said that has anything to do with any of the replys you had to me or mine to you.
> 
> You're a hack if you're new?
> 
> ...


You are arrogant.

From the OP's original post, my impression was he doesn't know how to run a business. It didn't occur to me that he was illegal, just inexperienced. Others pointed out the double standard, where the OP then conceded.

The whole thread then went into a stone throwing contest. I only came in to throw the OP a rope, saying he isn't the only one who made those mistakes. Like I said, "My hats off to those who were legal from day one".

I guess I ruined your fun on seeing someone kicked after they gave up. So here I am trying to dust the guy off, when you blow in on your high horse, assuming all kinds of BS and trying to throw me in the same hole he's in.

Why don't you go back to your first post, and pick that apart before you pick mine apart. 

You opened this thread up into a third direction. Professional respect. You lack it. There's constructive ways to get your point across.



> Your motto is -
> 
> *#1) NOBODY can start a business in home improvements LEGALLY.*


Your English comprehension is poor too. Working as an apprentice then winning the lottery, isn't Illegal..... 

I could pick apart your posts all day, wanna continue?


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Jaf said:


> I guess I ruined your fun on seeing someone kicked after they gave up. So here I am trying to dust the guy off, *when you blow in on your high horse*, assuming all kinds of BS and trying to throw me in the same hole he's in.


What is it with this thread and people riding high horses?

First me, now Finley.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

CookeCarpentry said:


> What is it with this thread and people riding high horses?
> 
> First me, now Finley.


I need a high horse or my feet drag the ground.:laughing:


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Jaf said:


> You opened this thread up into a third direction. Professional respect. You lack it. There's constructive ways to get your point across.


I'll jump in, for kicks and giggles, I know Mike will be in shortly to respond.

But professional respect is just that, respect for other professionals, which Mike has. 

There's a guy here trying to justify why he shouldn't purchase insurance and be legit, that in no way shape or form is professional.

Now, if there was someone on the up and up who asked a business related question - I have no doubt Mike (and many others of us) would be on here offering professional respect (as we do day in and day out).

More and more, many of us go up against this kind of mentality that the OP exhibited, and for those of us who scraped and crawled our way from nothing, we may find it very hard to extend "professional respect" to a person who chooses to blatantly disregard all of the rules, etc. that we all have to play by.

He got what he deserved.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

CookeCarpentry said:


> I'll jump in, for kicks and giggles, I know Mike will be in shortly to respond.
> 
> But professional respect is just that, respect for other professionals, which Mike has.
> 
> ...


Agreed...To reiterate your point...

The OP was complaining that _he _was underbid by someone.Did not understand how they could come up with their low price....All the time the OP is in fact just as much of a (insert derogatory term here) __________ as the person that _underbid _him. 

When legit contractors like myself and others see stuff like this we see red.
Because someone charging 27.00 an hour and has no real overhead like a legal contractor has to have is in fact a low balling hack (regardless of their quality of work) and not playing on a level playing field.


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## MarcusRemd (Jul 23, 2010)

Sorry I'll admit I did not read this whole thing, how ever people like this guy pisses me off. Its because of people like him, and clients like his that my company took a big hit!

Short story short out of 7 or 8 contractors I was the only one that managed to keep his license. And i was the legit guy yet posts from online websites and the press harmed my company. You got low balled deal with it, it could had been a lot worst buddy.

**** or get of the pot. People who do side work like this do not only low ball companies but give a bad taste in clients mouths that we must try to wash out. Making it harder for them to trust us, so if we do receive one bad remark in 10 years it hurts our company for years to come.

I'm not saying you'll be a fly by'er but you're putting yourself at a huge risk, one small mistake can cost you all them tools and then some.and in the process hurt the companies that are legit.


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## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

I agree with the last two (er... three) posts. Hindsight being what it is, I shouldn't of rushed to the OP's defense. I just saw where he conceded and the abuse went on. I wasn't aware that the issue came up with him on other threads.

I was only pointing out, that regrettably, that the OP is not the only person who bent the rules to get started.

I'm all for letting this thread die out. This isn't my fight, I was only trying to pull the guy out of one that he had already lost.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

damn...now everyone's talkin' sense..wtf? :laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

J F said:


> damn...now everyone's talkin' sense..wtf? :laughing:


Sometimes crazy chit like that happens once people think about how crazy they sound defending a hack in thier own industry.

Jaf probably got a phone call today from a potential customer telling him they are going with somebody else and he knows the guy is an uninsured, weekend warrior Fireman who works using Hose A and Hose B part time and pays them cash. :laughing:


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## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

:laughing:

Actually I do know a moonlighting fireman, yeah, it burns me. Summer vacationing teachers are a favorite of mine too.

Believe me, I'm dealing with the frustration of dealing with people who aren't legit as well. I don't know the answer. I have food for thought.

Peace...I'll pay better attention next time, before I jump into a thread.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Jaf said:


> Peace...I'll pay better attention next time, before I jump into a thread.


Dang. Now what do I do with all of that popcorn I cooked up, all ready for a good Friday evening's reading?

Because you're right. Mike is arrogant.

Fortunately or not, he gets away with it because he's almost always right. :laughing:


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

oh jesus, the price of helium just quadrupled :wallbash:


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## MarcusRemd (Jul 23, 2010)

People like him just get my blood boiling. they are only out to make a buck and do not realize how badly they hurt the business that does everything legit.

Now can I get some of that pop corn?


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

Marcus,

There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

or popcorn either:laughing:

All in all interesting reading and I agree with Tinstaafl's assessment about Mike.


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