# block not level around perimeter.



## straightline (Oct 5, 2009)

I need to install sill plate on block begining this week and the mason has left me in a mess. The block is out at least 1 1/2" higher in one area the the rest of the block around the perimeter. Also there is a center support wall running through the basement which is 1" higher than perimeter and it is the center support for I-joist which will span from one side to other. How do you go back and compensate for this with sill plate? Can you go back and level the top of the block in anyway? I thought of pouring a 6" cap ontop of block to make it level all the way around perimeter what you guys think?


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

straightline said:


> I need to install sill plate on block begining this week and the mason has left me in a mess. The block is out at least 1 1/2" higher in one area the the rest of the block around the perimeter. Also there is a center support wall running through the basement which is 1" higher than perimeter and it is the center support for I-joist which will span from one side to other. How do you go back and compensate for this with sill plate? Can you go back and level the top of the block in anyway? I thought of pouring a 6" cap ontop of block to make it level all the way around perimeter what you guys think?


Hold your "Mason" (handyman?, out of work electrician) accountable for his crappy work if he can't afford it buy him a string.


If your "mason" won't stand behind his work I suppose you could cut out the High spots using a 1/4" grinder and 7" masonry blade or a quickie saw and the low spots fur out with treated.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

lukachuki said:


> Hold your "Mason" (handyman?, out of work electrician) accountable for his crappy work if he can't afford it buy him a string.


String sags. 
Be easier to add some concrete to make it level.


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## _SpinDrah (Sep 13, 2009)

Is this a joke? if not, don't pay him untill he fixes it.

sure lines sag, thats what twigs are for.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Could add or could cut off. Probably faster to cut it, probably look better poured.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Sounds like you need a better mason.

If you are the GC and hired this guy, make HIM fix it.
If you are the carpentry sub, show the GC/homeowner the issue and explain that you cannot build on top of his work without compromising the quality of your work.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

Sky hook I didnt expect a response like that from you.:blink:

String sag is common, but so is the solution. LIke Spindrah said, thats what twigs are for. Or tighten the line up! 

I assume were talking about a garage wall, house, or addition here? The run shouldnt be that long where he couldnt tighten the line up or twig it to get the sag out.

And if you bring it up to him Im sure he will say something about the footing being out of level, unless he did the footing too.

If he does, tell him he should have taken that into acct on his first course and cut the block as needed to make his starter course level.

It amounts to shoddy work. 

Did you go with the cheapest one?


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

Leveling up with concrete gets messy and you cant feather out or go to thin. Shoot the site with a transit or laser, find your high point, using acq build up accordingly. Lay your plates(double), there will be random gaps, go around with slate shims, poge with concrete. You can get it right, it may take a day or two depending on the size of the job and the details. Backcharge the mason. Dont forget the termite shield, the sill seal will probably be a waste of time with the mess you describe .G PS, i have found cutting back the high spots , and correcting with concrete to be a more difficult way to repair these types of messes.


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## straightline (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks for replies, I am the framing sub and had nothing to do with the mason. After checking further on the front of the garage door opening from one side to the other a 9'3" opening the mortor joints is out of line by 1" 1/2. There is one section that has a hight point of 1 1/2" and then runs down 1 1/4 over 10 ft area problem is that is the high spot on the whole foundation and I would have to shim the rest of the foundation up to match that high area. I hate to have a 1/4 million dollar house sit up on shims. If I could get the whole thing to double plate out to maybe 1/2" that would be within acceptible range. There is several off sets on this foundation with the longets wall being 64ft straight. These are the basement walls.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

straightline said:


> Thanks for replies, I am the framing sub and had nothing to do with the mason. After checking further on the front of the garage door opening from one side to the other a 9'3" opening the mortor joints is out of line by 1" 1/2. There is one section that has a hight point of 1 1/2" and then runs down 1 1/4 over 10 ft area problem is that is the high spot on the whole foundation and I would have to shim the rest of the foundation up to match that high area. I hate to have a 1/4 million dollar house sit up on shims. If I could get the whole thing to double plate out to maybe 1/2" that would be within acceptible range. There is several off sets on this foundation with the longets wall being 64ft straight. These are the basement walls.


Crappy Crappy Crappy Crappy Crappy Crappy Work.

This obviously is the GC's issue then. How he chooses to deal with it will say a lot about him. I wouldn't get your expectations to high though. As has been said already if the extra work falls on you, you need to have in writing what the extra compensation will be!


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

6stringmason said:


> Sky hook I didnt expect a response like that from you.:blink:
> 
> String sag is common, but so is the solution. LIke Spindrah said, thats what twigs are for. Or tighten the line up!
> 
> I assume were talking about a garage wall, house, or addition here? The run shouldnt be that long where he couldnt tighten the line up or twig it to get the sag out.


Really now. :sad:
String is used to get a straight line, *not a level line. *
Water level, transit, builders level, lasers etc. is the only way to get accurate elevations. :thumbsup:


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## DJ9222 (Apr 28, 2009)

If this was my job i would make the mason take the top course of block off and then relay with a lazer or transit..No way can this be fixed with a little cement...


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

In masonry, stringlines are used for level and edge.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

If its just the walkout walls at the basement, you could check each section with a laser and cut studs to fit. It is not uncommon on walkouts with several corners, to not be exact. For the garage, I agree with the other guys who say to add a plate and notch to fit. Make sure this change in elevation won't cause any problems anywhere else. And by all means, Notify the GC that this will be a serious "extra" which should be back charged to the mason. If the GC won't pay you to do it, good luck getting your money from the mason.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

First of all, I don't know what trade "building" is. As far as I know, the Department of Labor doesn't recognize that as a trade. Are you general contractor, a home owner, a framer or what?

This is what site supervision is important. If you paying for site supervision, you're being ripped off. This should have been caught by the mason and the site super and corrected immediately.

At this point, its a matter for a mason or a framer to correct. If you're at most 1.5" out of level at your highest point, I would consider two half courses to correct, if you can go up without impinging on other aspects of your project, such as grade and aerial right of way, etc. If you can't go up, then take a course or two down and correct it.


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## masonking02 (May 13, 2007)

cut slabs


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## essrmo (May 2, 2007)

straightline said:


> I need to install sill plate on block begining this week and the mason has left me in a mess. The *block is out at least 1 1/2" higher* in* one area* the the rest of the block around the perimeter. Also there is a *center* support wall running through the basement which *is 1" higher *than perimeter and it is the *center support for I-joist* which will span from one side to other. How do you go back and compensate for this with sill plate? Can you go back and level the top of the block in anyway? I thought of pouring a 6" cap ontop of block to make it level all the way around perimeter what you guys think?


Bite the bullet and trim a few studs.
Frame it up and quit your belly-achin'.
Be glad you have a job. 
Are you sure you're not in over your head ?> :laughing:


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Don't forget the nuts on the anchor bolts!!! (if the bolts are really there) - Framers are notorious for this. I did a study after some tornadoes and found over 70% of the homes damaged/destroyed did not have nuts on the bolts. - This is in comparison to 30-40% for nuts missing on the other homes.

Dick


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## straightline (Oct 5, 2009)

After talking with GC we have decided to have mason remove top layer of block and try to re-level I will let you know how this works out.


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## CMSStoneworks (Mar 23, 2009)

skyhook said:


> Really now. :sad:
> String is used to get a straight line, *not a level line. *
> Water level, transit, builders level, lasers etc. is the only way to get accurate elevations. :thumbsup:


:clap::thumbsup: someone _gets_ it! lol

I get line levels for free all the time when I buy chalklines etc....they go right in the garbage. I trust my 1000 dollar laser....not a 4.50 cent string that stretches and sag's. I only use stringlines for edges....and even then i use my 48 inch level to further insure im where i wanna be.


Straightline....might i suggest you or the GC stand over this guys shoulder. If I ever laid block like that i wouldnt have my business.


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## izzy (Oct 6, 2009)

At this point (1.5" high) it seems the simplest solution would be to cut the block off at the correct elevations. The manson will probably have to relay several courses. I always shoot in my corners and step blocks for my masons and if they dont get it right from there they pay me to fix it.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

CMSStoneworks said:


> :clap::thumbsup: someone _gets_ it! lol
> 
> I get line levels for free all the time when I buy chalklines etc....they go right in the garbage. I trust my 1000 dollar laser....not a 4.50 cent string that stretches and sag's. I only use stringlines for edges....and even then i use my 48 inch level to further insure im where i wanna be.
> 
> ...




Not really sure you get it. If you build two corners and hang a line to lay to what is that line doing??? Plumb, straight, and LEVEL. In masonry a line is used for level, granted you need a benchmark on your corners and leads which is usually provided by a laser, builders level, or transit. But if you truly are a mason you know that a string line is used to level.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

NJ Brickie said:


> Not really sure you get it. If you build two corners and hang a line to lay to what is that line doing??? Plumb, straight, and LEVEL. In masonry a line is used for level, granted you need a benchmark on your corners and leads which is usually provided by a laser, builders level, or transit. But if you truly are a mason you know that a string line is used to level.


Finally, another person gets what I was saying lol. A line level is something COMPLETELY different from a level line. I wouldnt trust a line level for anything. But I would trust to build up two leads on corners that have the same heights and run a level line to fill in the rest of the wall. 

And if you've been doing it awhile, you can generally tell when you line is sagging and either tighten it, or put a twig in the middle, take your pick. But either way, Id be interested to see how people lay a 25' block or brick wall without a line. I can imagine its a slow process.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Line levels do not give you a level line, but used correctly they can tell you if the two ends of the line are level to each other. As a rule, line levels are not used by any masons I know, but level stringlines are used every day, all day, on jobs from one side masonry residential to million block commercial. There is no other practical way to do it.

That said, I learned when not to use stringlines in my days as a rodman and instrument man, but that was layout and surveying, not putting masonry units in the wall.


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## CMSStoneworks (Mar 23, 2009)

I'll use a line stretched between corners or ends to keep it straight....but i dont use it as a level reference....I just level each block with my torpedo and in reference to the rest with a 48inch. Maybe im being too critical?:detective:


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## _SpinDrah (Sep 13, 2009)

CMSStoneworks said:


> I'll use a line stretched between corners or ends to keep it straight....but i dont use it as a level reference....I just level each block with my torpedo and in reference to the rest with a 48inch. Maybe im being too critical?


:blink: You should not be using a lvel on a wall that has a line already! it is just a wast of time, the block should be layed from the edge of the block below it, to the line.


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## CMSStoneworks (Mar 23, 2009)

_SpinDrah said:


> :blink: You should not be using a lvel on a wall that has a line already! it is just a wast of time, the block should be layed from the edge of the block below it, to the line.


 Gotcha, and it makes sense....im just too anal.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

I dont give a crap how you do it. If its 1.5 inches off when you are done you wouldn't do another one for me.


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## straightline (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies, I was down this morning and set up transit and shot all the corners and mid spans the one area we were talking about which is and inside corner was off 1 3/8" high and block ran down hill to outside corners approximatly 8ft in each direction. The mason said he would cut the top block down to level. The rest of the walls are with-in 5/8" at the worst point and one wall for stairs is low by 7/8" which I believe we will build up with mortor and lay sill in it to level. I have some pictures but dont have them downloaded yet. I will post later tonight. Thanks again.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

straightline said:


> Thanks for all the replies, I was down this morning and set up transit and shot all the corners and mid spans the one area we were talking about which is and inside corner was off 1 3/8" high and block ran down hill to outside corners approximatly 8ft in each direction. The mason said he would cut the top block down to level. The rest of the walls are with-in 5/8" at the worst point and one wall for stairs is low by 7/8" which I believe we will build up with mortor and lay sill in it to level. I have some pictures but dont have them downloaded yet. I will post later tonight. Thanks again.


Glad you are working it out.
Maybe you have also come to see
how messy and confusing it is to 
double post?


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## straightline (Oct 5, 2009)

Not confusing to me, guess if your not an open minded person it could be. Why not get feed back from both the carpenty and masonry forum since that is the problem I was dealing with?


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

straightline said:


> Not confusing to me, guess if your not an open minded person it could be. Why not get feed back from both the carpenty and masonry forum since that is the problem I was dealing with?


If you look through both threads you will 
find that we are more open minded than that.
You have responses from various trades
in both threads.
Most of us use the *New Posts* button,
and see what is on all of the forums. :thumbsup:
Double posting is not good forum etiquette,
rather like typing in all caps.
Nor is insulting folks trying to help you.


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## _SpinDrah (Sep 13, 2009)

I don't use the New Posts button, I don't do that on any forum, If he only posted in the Carp Hang out He would have missed my valuable Input.


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## Burns-Built (May 8, 2009)

So if this guy is 1.5" low in one corner what i would like to know is how far out of square is this foundation??


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## izzy (Oct 6, 2009)

Good point. I always shoot in my corners with a transit for my masons. A little more work for me but it keeps these problems at bay. 
I would say you would be surprised at the builders who never even check for level elevations or for square. 
He! He! Half of them don't even know the difference between a transit and a site level.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Burns-Built said:


> So if this guy is 1.5" low in one corner what i would like to know is how far out of square is this foundation??





izzy said:


> Good point. I always shoot in my corners with a transit for my masons. A little more work for me but it keeps these problems at bay.
> I would say you would be surprised at the builders who never even check for level elevations or for square.
> He! He! Half of them don't even know the difference between a transit and a site level.


If you want the answers to these
and other questions......
Tune in to his "other thread." :thumbsup:
A little bit here, an answer there.....
Double posting is fun. :clap:


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

izzy said:


> Good point. I always shoot in my corners with a transit for my masons. A little more work for me but it keeps these problems at bay.
> I would say you would be surprised at the builders who never even check for level elevations or for square.
> He! He! Half of them don't even know the difference between a transit and a site level.


I recall one project were I let the concrete guy set forms. When I checked, he was 10' into the set back on a 2 story foundation. If I had not checked it would have cost me 1,200 square feet of construction and would have had to be torn down. Good thing I check the prints. I can :laughing: about it.


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## izzy (Oct 6, 2009)

skyhook said:


> I recall one project were I let the concrete guy set forms. When I checked, he was 10' into the set back on a 2 story foundation. If I had not checked it would have cost me 1,200 square feet of construction and would have had to be torn down. Good thing I check the prints. I can :laughing: about it.


Big 10-4. Form guys are notorious for losing or adding square footage if not checked. No offense to any form guys I was a concrete for-man for a stretch in my career.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

As a Rodman, I held the dummy end and pounded stakes on the same building 3 times (3 days work each layout in Summertime Houston) before the @!#$%@#$% Job Engineer got it right. In Atlanta, still as a Rodman, we missed it by four feet to the South, but had it square to site and on grade on a half million SqFt warehouse complex. That one was built and accepted "as is".


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