# Making Lawyer Rates



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

I had just finished another sink replacement job for a customer which turned out great. Right after she handed me my check for the balance due, he asked me, “So now that you’ve been paid, how much was the sink?” 

“You can probably find that sink on Amazon for five to six hundred dollars” I replied. Big mistake. 

Quickly calculating how long I’d been there he said, “Oh, so you’re making lawyer rates”. 

This is why I never break down labor and material for customers. How much money I’m making is absolutely NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. I gave you a proposal for labor and material combined. If you have any objections to my proposal, the time to make them is before acceptance. Once we have a deal, this issue is no longer up for discussion. In hindsight, when he asked how much the sink cost, I should have said. “Respectfully, I’m going to let you look that up yourself.”

As I finished loading tools and cleaning up, he looked me in the eye and said “I’ll never recommend you.”

Considering how well the job turned out and how happy his wife was, I thought he may be joking, but his tone wasn’t.

Incredulous, I asked “Are you serious?”

He pulled open a cabinet door that had a splash of stone slurry on its back. “Look at this!” he said.

“Let me wipe that up” I said. 

“I’ve paid you. Get out of my house” he said. So I picked up my spray bottle of Simple Green and left. I got in my van, pulled out of sight and to the curb, then deposited the check I’d just been given with my phone. You can be as mean and ungrateful a jerk as you please, but a “Stop Payment” is no longer an aspect of this job I’m going to have to worry about.

This guy had given me warning when we met initially and when they gave me the down payment for the job. He asked me how much the sink was then. I should have taken the hint. They asked if there was a discount if they paid cash. Another hint. 

Funny how people never ask about my insurance rates, the tuition and time the continuing education the state of Florida requires for me to keep my building contractor’s license, or the $2,500.00 a month in advertising it took to get me into their kitchen. They fixate on material, as if that’s my only expense on their job. Ironically, I do make lawyer rates. Intermediate lawyer rates. So he’s right but irrelevant.

The next time a potential customer tries to play the “Let’s-figure-out-how-much-the-contractor-is-making” game, I’m going to look him in the eye and tell him that the discounted rates I get for buying sinks in the volume I do is none of his business. And no, I’m not sharing that savings with him. Then I’m going to shut up and wait for him to break the inevitable uncomfortable silence. If I get the down payment, great, the issue is resolved. If I don’t, fine by me. I’ve had plenty of satisfied customers who never attempted to stick their nose into my business or throw me out of their home for doing exactly what I said I would do for the amount I said I would do it for on the day I said I’d do it.


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## Windycity (Oct 3, 2015)

If they were concerned about the price they should have expressed that concern before the job started. 

Did they account for your drive time to and from their house? What about the time to pick up the sink and everything else you needed?


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

While it rarely comes up, if it does, and they want to play a game and say *"that's $XX0.XX and hour"*, I quickly laugh and tell them that... *"I wish it was actually that much an hour... I guess if I chose not to pay all my other operating costs, taxes, etc. it could be awesome to make that much an hour, but after paying everyone else what it costs to be in business out of that money as well, it ends up being a fraction of that number"*... not going to tell them what that fraction is, but... :whistling :laughing:

Don't waste my time...


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

"What do you care?"

They're getting the sink they want with a high quality install at a price they're willing to pay.

If they just wanted a sink, they should have just bought a sink.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

I never walked away from a job thinking I made too much. Period.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Pretty common for us to make lawyer rates. 


Court appointed lawyer rates, but lawyer rates just the same.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Thanks everyone.

This happened yesterday; I came home and told my wife about it. I took the day off today because it's my wife's day off. I wrote this first thing this morning, mostly to clarify what transpired and the lessons I learned for my own benefit, but this is the kind of thing the younger guys who come here for advice need to hear.

We preach about qualifying the prospect and controlling the sale. These are the consequences of that failure. Apparently even those of us with one foot into retirement need a reminder now and again.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

Irishslave said:


> I never walked away from a job thinking I made too much. Period.


The good jobs just make up for the not so good of paying jobs.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Kowboy said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> This happened yesterday; I came home and told my wife about it. I took the day off today because it's my wife's day off. I wrote this first thing this morning, mostly to clarify what transpired and the lessons I learned for my own benefit, but this is the kind of thing the younger guys who come here for advice need to hear.
> 
> We preach about qualifying the prospect and controlling the sale. These are the consequences of that failure. Apparently even those of us with one foot into retirement need a reminder now and again.




How many people in your area are qualified and capable of doing that? Probably a lot fewer than there are lawyers serving the same area. There’s one guy doing granite repairs for over half the state of Michigan, he probably makes lawyer rates too.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

My wife works for patent attorneys. Their rates start at $500 per hour and go up from there. 

Most lawyers around here are from $300 per hour (bottom of the barrel) to around $400 per hour. 

And that is for 40 to 60 hour work weeks.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

cwatbay said:


> My wife works for patent attorneys. Their rates start at $500 per hour and go up from there.
> 
> Most lawyers around here are from $300 per hour (bottom of the barrel) to around $400 per hour.
> 
> And that is for 40 to 60 hour work weeks.


Okay, point taken. I make beginning, fresh-out-of-law-school public defender rates.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Kowboy said:


> Okay, point taken. I make beginning, fresh-out-of-law-school public defender rates.


Remember that answer if it comes up again... :whistling :laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Lawyers don't need Jack for tools.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

So this lawyer pulls up to their client's house pulling a 16' trailer...


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

cwatbay said:


> My wife works for patent attorneys. Their rates start at $500 per hour and go up from there.
> 
> Most lawyers around here are from $300 per hour (bottom of the barrel) to around $400 per hour.
> 
> And that is for 40 to 60 hour work weeks.


I'm gonna ask the next lawyer I see how much that notebook he's writing on cost. After he tells me I'm going to look at him and say, "****, you're making politician rates"

Not sure what I'll say to a politician.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

You know what a real tragedy is? 

It's when a busload of lawyers goes over a cliff..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................and there's 3 empty seats


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## Jay hole (Nov 12, 2013)

99% of lawyers give the rest of them a bad name.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Kowboy said:


> Okay, point taken. I make beginning, fresh-out-of-law-school public defender rates.


for 40+ hours per week???....:no::laughing:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

There's something missing here, I don't think I've ever had a call go sour that fast before...or ever been asked to leave. It's no mystery what a sink is worth and I'm guessing the guy thought he was getting something of much higher price than what was delivered.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Did he factor in the time it took for you to do the estimate? Drive to the job? Order the material? A lawyer would charge for every second of his time. Someone once told me that if his lawyer thought about his case even while reading the paper at night he’d bill for that time, I’m pretty sure he was serious too.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

artisanstone said:


> My understanding was that paralegals etc. were billed at the full rate in addition to the lawyer. So they would be billing 500X3 or whatever for the full team. Tell me I'm wrong.


I did some work on a conference room at a very large law firm ( 40 or so lawyers ), the biggest room had a table that sat 24 people. When that table was full I just though I am so happy not to be paying for that. Senior partners were billed at $5000 hr down to jr attorneys at $400 and paralegals at $150, they even billed for use of the room and food and beverages.

There were suing Honda/Acura over warranty issues.


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## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

knock on wood but i dont think I have ever left a place with the people being unhappy.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Anderson said:


> knock on wood but i dont think I have ever left a place with the people being unhappy.


same here


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> I had just finished another sink replacement job for a customer which turned out great. Right after she handed me my check for the balance due, he asked me, “So now that you’ve been paid, how much was the sink?”
> 
> “You can probably find that sink on Amazon for five to six hundred dollars” I replied. Big mistake.
> 
> ...


At least he didn't have a pipe break.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

TxElectrician said:


> At least he didn't have a pipe break.


What’s this pipe breaking reference I always hear about?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Anderson said:


> knock on wood but i dont think I have ever left a place with the people being unhappy.


Me neither, but I'm sure a few had buyers remorse at some point. I've never been asked to leave like that...

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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Got asked to leave a month ago pricing out an addition/remodel at their kitchen table, i produced an APS and said this is what i charge for the scope, selections packet, contract and table of allowances/or spec book. In addition i charged a nominal 900.00 to redline and fix his dog chit plans since they were done in soft plan and we use soft plan. I tried to pitch that id be happy to bid for free if he got ALL of those items with the quality of research we were providing but we werent doing it for free. 

Apparently he thought i was trying to rip him off. He told the referral that. The refferal said well he seems to stay busy so he must get it :laughing:

I also had a client recently have a pretty large house built by another Builder, I did her addition and remodel 6 years ago, I actually won 4 awards off of it and did work for her for years off and on.

She got pissed off that I charged her a few thousand dollars for a small modification. They cancelled the modification and sent an email and said that we were charging too much and we told her we understood but that's what it cost for us to be in business. That was the last time we worked for her

Other than that happy clients as far as i know


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## Anthill (Mar 23, 2013)

"I could have come with half the tools, half the experience, taken twice as long and charged half as much per hour. Then it would be acceptable?"


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Big Johnson said:


> What’s this pipe breaking reference I always hear about?


During a counter modification or a sink change out he dropped a sink on a CPVC pipe which shattered and flooded the house. The water shut off at the street would not turn off, instead of breaking it I guess he just let it keep going and just pack his tools up and left and told them to call a plumber because he wasn't licensed. 

That's how I remember it anyway it may be different than that. He may have got it turned off somehow, I can't remember and then just didn't dry it up and do the remediation. I can't really remember at this point


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Jaws said:


> During a counter modification or a sink change out he dropped a sink on a CPVC pipe which shattered and flooded the house. The water shut off at the street would not turn off, instead of breaking it I guess he just let it keep going and just pack his tools up and left and told them to call a plumber because he wasn't licensed.
> 
> That's how I remember it anyway it may be different than that. He may have got it turned off somehow, I can't remember and then just didn't dry it up and do the remediation. I can't really remember at this point


Then fostered the greatest thread in CT history.

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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

artisanstone said:


> My understanding was that paralegals etc. were billed at the full rate in addition to the lawyer. So they would be billing 500X3 or whatever for the full team. Tell me I'm wrong.


Depends on the firms. May be different with patent law. BTW, that $500 per hour is the lowest starting fee charged by new attorneys at the firm. I will follow up and confirm wit my wife about the additional charges for paralegals and staff.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Anderson said:


> knock on wood but i dont think I have ever left a place with the people being unhappy.


People are ways happy to see me go....


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## Bull Trout (Dec 6, 2016)

hdavis said:


> People are ways happy to see me go....


yeah, I get paid to leave :jester:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

For your reading enjoyment....:whistling

http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/my-first-liability-claim-296266/


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

The problem is John Q public walks around with a piece of plastic to withdraw money or buy stuff after money has been directly deposited into his account each week.

There is little thought about his employers Cost of doing Business, tax burdens, sick pay, vacation pay or healthcare.......... just Net income.

The public has never been more detached from these obligations than they are now


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

You guys are one sided. Problem in this case is deep. This is why is be a house flipper much better. Every customer can do math and be unhappy. And if you charge such rate that you can buy house, small yacht and trophy wife well people will do math.
I said I work for a few small developers, they make like 500$/hour of their time and nobody can say to them anything.
Yeah, me and everyone else want such nice things but big question is can you do it through single man contracting. You earn good, customer is unhappy with cost? Hm, it will not work so forever. I hope you guys see basic problem here. If I would buy old house run crown and fancy stair trim who will buy it would be happy, and me with 300$/hour in pocket.
Some 20 years old with 1000$ at account do this thinking right now like I, and he will be billionaire one day.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I aint one sided im on the side of making a good living and not being a hack. **** flipping houses.


tipitop said:


> You guys are one sided. Problem in this case is deep. This is why is be a house flipper much better. Every customer can do math and be unhappy. And if you charge such rate that you can buy house, small yacht and trophy wife well people will do math.
> I said I work for a few small developers, they make like 500$/hour of their time and nobody can say to them anything.
> Yeah, me and everyone else want such nice things but big question is can you do it through single man contracting. You earn good, customer is unhappy with cost? Hm, it will not work so forever. I hope you guys see basic problem here. If I would buy old house run crown and fancy stair trim who will buy it would be happy, and me with 300$/hour in pocket.
> Some 20 years old with 1000$ at account do this thinking right now like I, and he will be billionaire one day.


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

^^^ I tried guys give you some ideas to think about. I sorry if it offend someone. Maybe "jaws" you have a couple employee and customer can not do math. It is much much more in this OP case then you here comments. It is not "who care what they want".


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

tipitop said:


> You guys are one sided. Problem in this case is deep. This is why is be a house flipper much better. Every customer can do math and be unhappy. And if you charge such rate that you can buy house, small yacht and trophy wife well people will do math.
> I said I work for a few small developers, they make like 500$/hour of their time and nobody can say to them anything.
> Yeah, me and everyone else want such nice things but big question is can you do it through single man contracting. You earn good, customer is unhappy with cost? Hm, it will not work so forever. I hope you guys see basic problem here. If I would buy old house run crown and fancy stair trim who will buy it would be happy, and me with 300$/hour in pocket.
> Some 20 years old with 1000$ at account do this thinking right now like I, and he will be billionaire one day.


I don't think I could have said this better myself. Tipi is Right ON !:whistling


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## tipitop (Dec 3, 2013)

cwatbay said:


> I don't think I could have said this better myself. Tipi is Right ON !:whistling


So you bro understand my line of thinking here. I'm not against OP earn good, I wish I do same rates. I'm against that OP should feel ashamed, or be harassed because he earn good.
Se problem OPs customer will say to people OP cheat me and make ***/hour. People will say OP is ah and community will have bad opinion about him.
My customer at last big project did make 200$/hour for work and his work was to call contractors. He didn't even organize it I did schedule them. And now anyone there thanks to my customer for fixing up that snake infested house.


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