# How much do you pay your journeymen?



## SmartConstruct (Jul 2, 2013)

EDIT TITLE: *What Is The Wage You Pay Your Journeymen?*

I know that there are two theories here. 


The first one is to pay your journeymen top dollar. One contractor once told me of the real cost of a cheap sub. 


The second philosophy is similar to Wal-Mart's strategy: Pay your employees as low as you can. 

I worked for one contractor who paid a very low wage. Result? I didn't work for him for a long time and while I was working for him, I didn't put in as great an effort as I would working for a higher wage. 
Another contractor that I know also uses this philosophy. He says that since the economy is bad right now, anyone would be happy to just have a job.

That reminds me of the minimum wage. 
Many economists have studied how minimum-wage laws affect the teenage labor market. These researchers compare the changes in the minimum wage over time with the changes in teenage employment. Although there is some debate about how much the minimum wage affects employment, the typical study finds that a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage depresses teenage employment between 1 and 3 percent. In interpreting this estimate, note that a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage does not raise the average wage of teenagers by 10 percent. A change in the law does not directly affect those teenagers who are already paid well above the minimum, and enforcement of minimum-wage laws is not perfect. Thus, the estimated drop in employment of 1 to 3 percent is significant.
The minimum wage is a frequent topic of political debate. Advocates of the minimum wage view the policy as one way to raise the incme of the working poor. They correctly point out that workers who earn the minimum wage can afford only a meager standard of living. In 2005, for instance, when the minimum wage was $5.15 per hour, two adults working 40 hours a week for every week of the year at minimum-wage jobs had a total annual income of only $21,424, which was less than half of the median family income. Many advocates of the minimum wage admit that it has some adverse effects, including unemployment, but they believe that these effects are small and that, all things considered, a higher minimum wage make the poor better off.
Opponents of the minimum wage contend that it is not the best way to combat poverty. They note that a high minimum wage causes unemployment, encourages teenagers to drop out of school, and prevents some unskilled workers from getting the on-the-job training they need. Moreover, opponents of the minimum wage point out that the minimum wage is a poorly targeted policy. Not all minimum-wage workers are heads of households trying to help their families escape poverty. In fact, fewer than a third of minimum-wage earners are in families with incomes below the poverty line. Many are teenagers from middle-class homes working at part-time jobs for extra spending money.


I ask everyone to please take this question objectivelly. I have a feeling that the story of the cheap sub will appeal to people emotionally and they will say that this is the best method.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

With the different cost of living through out the country this question has about as much merit as any other "how much" question. I pay my Journeyman as much as I can afford to, along with paid vacation and holidays.

I am rarely the low bid.


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## SmartConstruct (Jul 2, 2013)

TxElectrician said:


> With the different cost of living through out the country this question has about as much merit as any other "how much" question.


I appologize for correcting you, but the pay per position's (manager, teacher, nurse, carpenter, etc.) tie to the cost of living is nowhere near as drastic as you make it out to be. But, you do bring up a good point...
In addition to listing the wage that you pay, could everyone also list the state that they hire in?



TxElectrician said:


> I pay my Journeyman as much as I can afford to, along with paid vacation and holidays.
> 
> I am rarely the low bid.


I find this interesting as (I'm assuming) that you listed $17/hr on the poll, but the average carpenter salary for Texas is $16.50/hr and, I would imagine, that the average electrician salary is much higher. Source: http://salarybystate.org/construction-facilities/carpenter-salary-by-state


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

SmartConstruct said:


> I appologize for correcting you, but the pay per position's (manager, teacher, nurse, carpenter, etc.) tie to the cost of living is nowhere near as drastic as you make it out to be. But, you do bring up a good point...
> In addition to listing the wage that you pay, could everyone also list the state that they hire in?
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not part of your poll

No need to appologize, your mistaken, at least as far as electricians go. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Electrician_Journeyman/Hourly_Rate#by_State


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## m2akita (May 18, 2012)

But there is more than just $/ hr. There is vacation/sick/holiday time, bonus pay, tool/vehicle/gas compensation, retirement benefits, health insurance, life insurance, etc. I don't think these things are factored into that wage rate.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm not taking the poll because it's irrelevant, money, for those of us who are experienced is not the driving force of a successful long term company. 

As a foreman for some of the largest contractors in the Midwest I've come away with a certain perspective on productivity, success and longevity.

Plumbers over the age of 35 are by and large the best bet. Many of them are worth paying a premium. 

Plumbers over the age of 50 can often be the best asset a company has. 

Plumbers aged 25 or less can be a poor bet.

Yes, I'm proud to practice age discrimination, but only backwards. Feel free to call the cops.

I'm looking at hiring a plumber right now. He will be over 40 and he will be paid above Journeyman's rate. I would like him to have a stable marriage and kids. The applicant needs to be a hunter and needs to have a home and not rent.

He has to own a Ford and he needs to be a Republican.

The older the better. The older tradesman are super efficient and don't need to run, they are smart and think "big picture".


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

SmartConstruct

What you need is more experience. In 20 years you'll look at what you wrote and laugh. 

Put away the books. Get to work.


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## SmartConstruct (Jul 2, 2013)

m2akita said:


> But there is more than just $/ hr. There is vacation/sick/holiday time, bonus pay, tool/vehicle/gas compensation, retirement benefits, health insurance, life insurance, etc. I don't think these things are factored into that wage rate.


Ok. I'll clarify my question: I'm asking about a wage. 
Not a work condition, standards, workweek, allowances, vacation, benefits, profit, retirement, bonuses, etc.
A wage. A basic wage.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

SmartConstruct said:


> Ok. I'll clarify my question: I'm asking about a wage.
> Not a work condition, standards, workweek, allowances, vacation, benefits, profit, retirement, bonuses, etc.
> A wage. A basic wage.


Wage is nothing by itself. It's a flawed question. Again, experience.

A poll that has 16 or 17 as the poll is ridiculous.


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## SmartConstruct (Jul 2, 2013)

Oconomowoc said:


> Plumbers over the age of 35 are by and large the best bet. Many of them are worth paying a premium.
> 
> Plumbers over the age of 50 can often be the best asset a company has.
> 
> Plumbers aged 25 or less can be a poor bet.


It might come as a surprise, but I completely agree with these statements. Although older guys are slower and have a horrible memory, they are superior when it comes to judgment.




Oconomowoc said:


> I'm looking at hiring a plumber right now. He will be over 40 and he will be paid above Journeyman's rate. I would like him to have a stable marriage and kids. The applicant needs to be a hunter and needs to have a home and not rent.
> 
> He has to own a Ford and he needs to be a Republican.


Are you sure you're not going to get in trouble with this? Not only do those sound like awfully high standards, but it sounds like you will get emotionally attached to this criteria. I was always told to hire people based on reason, not emotion.


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## SmartConstruct (Jul 2, 2013)

Oconomowoc said:


> SmartConstruct
> 
> What you need is more experience. In 20 years you'll look at what you wrote and laugh.
> 
> Put away the books. Get to work.


Thanks, but I don't plan to be doing this 20 years from now.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

SmartConstruct said:


> Are you sure you're not going to get in trouble with this? Not only do those sound like awfully high standards, but it sounds like you will get emotionally attached to this criteria. I was always told to hire people based on reason, not emotion.


Again, experience. Instead of "being told" try experience.

Imagine 30 plumbers in a job trailer eating lunch. Now imagine being a foreman listening to all the different conversations and topics.

Now imagine doing this for months at a time, years.

Now imagine keeping productivity records of each and every one of them and listening to the daily complaints. Some complain a lot, some a little and some never. 

Now imagine on a project when there's really complicated components that need only the best of the best. Out of 30 maybe 5 can knock it out of the park. Who are these five? In marketing we call these demographics. Companies target people like this all the time, kind of like these 24 hour loan stores, it's for certain "groups". And these certain groups have certain characteristics. 

Again, gibe me a 50 year old experienced fella who is a "grown up" and has certain beliefs and qualities and I'll put him against a hipster any day of the week. 

And for the record, old people are not slow and they don't forget anything important. The fact that you said that ruins any credibility you had I'm this discussion because anybody with any experience whatsoever knows that older people don't need to be physically fast, that's reserved for the young and inexperienced who have no concept of working "smart".

The Ford Chevy thing.....that was a joke of course.

As far as getting in trouble? Not a chance. I need a person who will represent my company and I need to get along with him/her. Its a lot like a marriage and when people choose a mate they discriminate. 

Anyhow, when layoffs always came and jobs wound down the people who got a pink slip was a very predictable event. The old guys always stayed......9 out of 10 times. There's reasons for that.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

SmartConstruct said:


> Thanks, but I don't plan to be doing this 20 years from now.


Well, what we plan on and what actually happens are two different things.


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## SmartConstruct (Jul 2, 2013)

Oconomowoc said:


> Again, experience. Instead of "being told" try experience.
> 
> Imagine 30 plumbers in a job trailer eating lunch. Now imagine being a foreman listening to all the different conversations and topics.
> 
> ...


:laughing:


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## SmartConstruct (Jul 2, 2013)

Oconomowoc said:


> Well, what we plan on and what actually happens are two different things.


Let me clarify my answer... I would much rather be involved in the business side of things  than the manual labor side of things :sleep1:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I am confused on something with your poll.

What's with the 16 vs 17. That's only $1 dollar. One dollar doesn't separate minimum vs well paid.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I couldn't participate in the poll. No box for $10/hr.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Oconomowoc said:


> The applicant needs to be a hunter and needs to have a home and not rent.
> 
> He has to own a Ford and he needs to be a Republican.
> .


:laughing:


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## SmartConstruct (Jul 2, 2013)

Oconomowoc said:


> I am confused on something with your poll.
> 
> What's with the 16 vs 17. That's only $1 dollar. One dollar doesn't separate minimum vs well paid.


It sounds like there is something wrong with your computer. I have more than 16 and 17 as options. I also have less than or equal to 15, 18-28, and greater than or equal to 29.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

SmartConstruct said:


> I appologize for correcting you, but the pay per position's (manager, teacher, nurse, carpenter, etc.) tie to the cost of living is nowhere near as drastic as you make it out to be. But, you do bring up a good point...
> In addition to listing the wage that you pay, could everyone also list the state that they hire in?
> 
> 
> ...


Where you get that, skippy? Some BS poll conducted by people who you dont know, on a scale of which size you dont know and cant confirm? :laughing:

Correct TxElectrician? On electrical wages in a state you dont live in? This shows the depth of intelligence you invested in this remark before posting. He has a legit operation in the same market I live in. Between a guy who lives in another state and a guy who is a master electrician in this state, id say he knows what he is talking about and you should listen. Toss that statistic in the trash.


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## SmartConstruct (Jul 2, 2013)

Andrew6127 said:


> "Remember... I completed a business program.."
> 
> Sounds like wasted money to me


There aren't any jobs out there. This chit is easy. I'm on course to make $30,000-$50,000 this year. My buddy graduated a year ago and is only making $20,000 plus commission. The economy is tough. Do you really think I want to be doing this? Working around crackheads and alcoholics? One guy I used to work with, he's doing 7 years for stabbing his brother. Believe me, if I had to, I wouldn't be doing this.




Andrew6127 said:


> "Manual labor is just not my thing."
> 
> So you're lazy?


Yes. I'm an American. What country are you from?




Andrew6127 said:


> The way I see this thread makes me think someone has watched too much DIY TV and wanted to waste loan/grant money.


Don't say that... the guys on here are already pissed off enough.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

Jaws said:


> My mom wont let my old man newr the check book :laughing::whistling


I'm not even on her checking account. What's mine is hers and what's hers is hers.:laughing:


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## SmartConstruct (Jul 2, 2013)

Oconomowoc said:


> We're just a bunch of simple farm folk here.


Any good Wisconsin-made cheese brands that you can recommend?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

We're done here.


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