# Unlicensed handyman KILLS 4 month old girl.



## 22rifle

OK, so he didn't do it on purpose but it would not be a huge stretch to string him up for involuntary manslaughter.



> Fire investigators Friday blamed a fatal house explosion in north Charlotte on an improperly removed heater that left a gas pipe uncapped.
> 
> 
> When an *uncertified handyman turned the gas back on last week to ignite a water heater*, fire officials said gas seeped from the uncapped pipe for almost two hours before the house blew up.
> 
> 
> Four-month-old Synora Coleman was killed in the explosion June 19. Firefighters found her body in the rubble a few minutes after they arrived. Her mother, Courtney Chambers was taken to Carolinas Medical Center and released earlier this week. Synora's father, Sylmyles Coleman, had burns on a third of his body and is still at Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center, which has a burn unit.





> *A handyman removed the gas heater from the hallway, but firefighters said he didn't cap the pipe to prevent gas from flowing out of it in the future.* The gas was turned off at the time.
> 
> Synora's family moved into the house in June. On June 19, Chambers talked with the landlord about a leaky toilet at the one-story house. She also told the landlord she had put a deposit down for gas, but the family didn't have hot water.
> 
> 
> *Around 6 p.m., a second handyman came to the house. He turned the gas on, lit the water heater's pilot light and fixed the toilet. He then checked to make sure warm water was flowing to the bathroom sink. In all, the handyman was in the house for less than half an hour.*



http://www.charlotte.com/171/story/690196.html

And that my friends, is why some of us say, "Hire a professional plumber" even when the law doesn't require it.


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## Dave R

I've never understood why anyone who is not licensed and fully trained would attempt to work on anything connected to gas. In this case, it was two different handymen. One showed up in March to remove a gas heater at the landloard's request. Three months later, another one was called to turn on the gas, not knowing about the first Handyman or the heater removal. The explosion completly leveled the house and could be heard for miles around. It was all over the news here for days.


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## Ron The Plumber

22rifle said:


> OK, so he didn't do it on purpose but it would not be a huge stretch to string him up for involuntary manslaughter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.charlotte.com/171/story/690196.html
> 
> And that my friends, is why some of us say, "Hire a professional plumber" even when the law doesn't require it.


GC's don't listen, it's a uphill battle, they insist they can do this without being licensed, will this article shed light to those on here who break the laws of contracting. :no::no::no:


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## skyhook

Ron The Plumber said:


> GC's don't listen, it's a uphill battle, they insist they can do this without being licensed, will this article shed light to those on here who break the laws of contracting. :no::no::no:


How did GCs get into this. More like an unlicensed plumber. Oh I forget GCs and handyman are the same to you. :laughing:


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## 22rifle

skyhook said:


> How did GCs get into this. More like an unlicensed plumber. Oh I forget GCs and handyman are the same to you. :laughing:


When a GC starts to mess with gas or plumbing without the proper training, licensing, or certification, he is acting in the capacity of a handyman.

Stick to what you are trained, licensed, or certified to do and you are a GC. You may still be the spawn of the devil like many GC's are, but at least you won't be dabbling in handyman territory.


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## Bill

My thoughts are this. Quite simply he said he would preform said work for fixed price. Therefore he broke the law by contracting without a contracting license. he had the option of telling the HO he was not qualified to do said job. I think they ought to run him through the mill. Anyone who wants to contract a job should get a contractors license. Just like us. Simple.


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## skyhook

22rifle said:


> When a GC starts to mess with gas or plumbing without the proper training, licensing, or certification, he is acting in the capacity of a handyman.
> 
> Stick to what you are trained, licensed, or certified to do and you are a GC. You may still be the spawn of the devil like many GC's are, but at least you won't be dabbling in handyman territory.


It doesn't take a genius to thread a cap on. A handyman designation is too good for the first hack.


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## Ron The Plumber

What does it take?


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## silvertree

Ron The Plumber said:


> What does it take?


It takes an act of God, or 1 licensed plumber.:notworthy


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## bigdav160

:bangin:

Does it really take training and a "license" to cap a gas line? :whistling

The problem here is the guy wasn't a "handyman". 

He was a freakin idiot! :w00t:


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## 22rifle

bigdav160 said:


> :bangin:
> 
> Does it really take training and a "license" to cap a gas line? :whistling


No. But that training and license drastically increases the chance that the guy you hired KNOWS he has to cap that gas line.

See, it's not about the act of capping the gas line at all. It's about knowing you have to. 

No training or license required for that. But like I said, that training and license drastically increases the chance that the guy you hired KNOWS he has to cap that gas line.


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## Bill

bigdav160 said:


> :bangin:
> 
> Does it really take training and a "license" to cap a gas line? :whistling
> 
> The problem here is the guy wasn't a "handyman".
> 
> He was a freakin idiot! :w00t:


Thats what I am talking about:thumbsup:


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## Dave R

It was reportrd that the local DA's office is looking into pressing charges. It will be intresting to see if it's against the first or second handyman, or both. Or maybe even the landlord who probably hired the cheapest guy he could find and didn't care if he hired an idiot.


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## MALCO.New.York

It is ultimately the Landlords fault.

And did we not just have a MAJOR Gas Explosion at a UNION construction sight. An explosion due to HUMAN ERROR. So much for the license and experience there!


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## silvertree

I say go after the 2 handymen, and they were not handy men. And especially go after the landlord.


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## Grumpyplumber

*You can't just consider the fact that this idiot did something stupid by not putting a cap on.*
*I have seen some VERY scary things happen on gas, fittings come lose or break from working on another portion of pipe & then leak slowly after the fact...so no...it doesn't take a genius, but it sure takes a complete idiot to think he's ok as long as he "knows what he's doing" without the license and necessary insurance.*


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## Plumb Crazy

What a tragedy. If it would've happened in my state the D.A. would'nt be LOOKING INTO ANYTHING. It is a first degree misdameanor for the first offense of Contracting Without a License, third degree felony the second. It is also a third degree felony first offense period for doing any type of gas work without a license and any death in the commision of a felony is FIRST DEGREE MURDER. 

I hope the two hacks AND the propetry owner get what they have coming!!!


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## mdshunk

How could you be in a house for 1/2 hour, with a gas line leaking gas full-bore, and not smell gas?


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## Plumb Crazy

And for ALL of the unlicensed naysayers who try to selectively use clever little euphemisms such as "handyman", "remodeler" etc and make sarcastic responses to the licensed people's objections to those who do unlicensed/ ILLEGAL work ... If you're doing unlicensed work that falls within the legal scope of a licensed trade I HOPE YOU ALL GET CAUGHT AND PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST. 

I should'nt lower myself to debate right from wrong as a matter of opinion when the LAW does it for me in no uncertain terms. A crime is a crime is a CRIME. However:

No it doesnt take a rocket scientist to cap a line.But, if you had a license you would know the proper procedure to abandon and terminate a branch as outlined in the code books. 

These laws are made (MOST OF THEM BY TRADESMAN AND LOBBIED INTO LAW) to protect the health and safety of the public first and foremost. 

If you dont like it bring yourself up to the standards of a developed society by getting licensed in what you do or take your standards to a third world society where nobody will notice or care.


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## Plumb Crazy

bigdav160 said:


> :bangin:
> 
> Does it really take training and a "license" to cap a gas line? :whistling
> 
> The problem here is the guy wasn't a "handyman".
> 
> He was a freakin idiot! :w00t:


 
If you want it done legally in my state it does. Dont know if he was a "handyman" but I do know he was 

1) A MURDERER

2) A CRIMINAL for doing unlicensed work 

3) Yes an IDIOT and probably called himself a "handyman" or "remodeler" and was elusive and did things like not give any real title or information like where he was from, company name (if he even had one) and probably tried to JUSTIFY what he did or MINIMIZE the fact that he didnt have a license if the subject ever came up. Obviously didnt know jack about Plumbing or Fuelgas Code and probably was proud of his self designation of "handyman" which in his mind made him an expert in all trades. Because in his world "handymen" didnt needthings like training or licenses. They have the right to do anything because they used to work for a company who did or did it with their uncle jim bob or jose or watched an episode of handy manny or this old house.

RING ANY BELLS OUT THERE PEOPLE ???


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## Splinter

Do we have to play this silly little game? Here's another thing I posted at some point... 



> I've done my share of $15K+ bath remodels, but I have no desire to pretend on a reasonably anonymous website that it's all I do.


I had the discussion with Grumpy about doing some "average under $10K suburban long island" bathrooms, and IMO, soldering in a shower valve is not far off from sweating on some angle stops... But hey, I used to sweat and braze copper from 3/8" up to 6 inches in diameter for a living... Maybe sweating a shower valve is more difficult for you? 

Really... I'm done... I thought it would be nice to discuss stuff with other trades, and have some civilized debates around here and learn something new, but I dont ever see it happening. You guys can live in your angry little world, I want no part of it.


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## 22rifle

Splinter said:


> Do we have to play this silly little game? Here's another thing I posted at some point...
> 
> 
> 
> I had the discussion with Grumpy about doing some "average under $10K suburban long island" bathrooms, and IMO, soldering in a shower valve is not far off from sweating on some angle stops... But hey, I used to sweat and braze copper from 3/8" up to 6 inches in diameter for a living... Maybe sweating a shower valve is more difficult for you?
> 
> Really... I'm done... I thought it would be nice to discuss stuff with other trades, and have some civilized debates around here and learn something new, but I dont ever see it happening. You guys can live in your angry little world, I want no part of it.


Awww... don't go away mad now! It's like a job site. Give and take. You gave, now you take. Life goes on.


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## Ron The Plumber

Hay 22

What I don't understand here is why he would flat out lie to me, he said he would use a plumber when ever there was plumbing to be done, and then I find this was not at all true.

I asked a simple question and he just tried to cover up his tracks by lies.


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## 22rifle

Ron The Plumber said:


> Hay 22
> 
> What I don't understand here is why he would flat out lie to me, he said he would use a plumber when ever there was plumbing to be done, and then I find this was not at all true.
> 
> I asked a simple question and he just tried to cover up his tracks my lies.


I understand. It's the same old, same old. You and I have seen this crap for as long as we have been in the trades.


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## Grumpyplumber

*I find it odd that he picks a thread about a 4 month old dying from a handy-hack doing unlicensed work to pick this fight.*

*I feel like I just had it out with my ten year old on why he can't just take other kids toys without asking.*


Splinter said:


> Do we have to play this silly little game? Here's another thing I posted at some point...
> 
> 
> 
> I had the discussion with Grumpy about doing some "average under $10K suburban long island" bathrooms, and IMO, soldering in a shower valve is not far off from sweating on some angle stops... But hey, I used to sweat and braze copper from 3/8" up to 6 inches in diameter for a living... Maybe sweating a shower valve is more difficult for you?
> 
> Really... I'm done... I thought it would be nice to discuss stuff with other trades, and have some civilized debates around here and learn something new, but I dont ever see it happening. You guys can live in your angry little world, I want no part of it.


*I have nailed my share of 2x4's, so now it's time to do my own bath remodels.*


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## ChillaWatt

I don't know how GCs got into the blame here. The ones that should be held accountable are the landlord for not hiring a licensed plumber and the handymen if they contracted illegally. Here in Cali, you have to be licensed to contract for $500 or more, and more importantly, to pull permits. This job would require a permit, so the 1st handyman would be to blame as well. A lot of GCs also have a plumbing and/or elec. license, so don't even say they are like a handyman. They had to go through all the **** to become licensed and pay a hell of a lot more to be insured, and deal with a lot more stress than a plumber does. Just because you have to work under one isn't justification to denigrate them. Now if a GC was responsible for this mess, then he should be held accountable. Tis not the case here.

-Chilla


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## skyhook

Ron The Plumber said:


> Skyhook,
> 
> I used to have my own company, I work for a plumber company here.
> 
> What's your point?


Point is, are you licensed? Do you do side work? Not that it matters to me. I worked for a plumbing contractor before I was a licensed GC, infact he gave me a cert. to help me become a licensed GC.


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## mdshunk

_Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
_ _Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya..._


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## Ron The Plumber

skyhook said:


> Point is, are you licensed? Do you do side work? Not that it matters to me. I worked for a plumbing contractor before I was a licensed GC, infact he gave me a cert. to help me become a licensed GC.


http://www4.cbs.state.or.us/ex/all/...useaction=search.show_search_name&group_id=30

Type in 5438JP

I don't do side work. I may at times work on family member homes, which I'm allowed to do in this state, but not allowed to do non-family member homes,


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## rbsremodeling

Whose Ronald Warren??:w00t:


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## skyhook

Ron The Plumber said:


> http://www4.cbs.state.or.us/ex/all/...useaction=search.show_search_name&group_id=30
> 
> Type in 5438JP
> 
> I don't do side work. I may at times work on family member homes, which I'm allowed to do in this state, but not allowed to do non-family member homes,


You have my respect. Thanks for the link. :thumbsup:


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## Ron The Plumber

rbsremodeling said:


> Whose Ronald Warren??:w00t:


You don think it was going to say Ron The Plumber did you? :laughing:


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## rbsremodeling

Ronald "Da Plumber" Warren:notworthy


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## Ron The Plumber

rbsremodeling said:


> Ronald "Da Plumber" Warren:notworthy


Your funny :laughing:


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## JBBS

Man I need to switch trades. We never have this much excitement in the specialty coatings forum! I feel like the damn Maytag repairman waiting around for something to happen! Plumbers and sparkys 
have all the fun!


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## rbsremodeling

JBBS said:


> Man I need to switch trades. We never have this much excitement in the specialty coatings forum! I feel like the damn Maytag repairman waiting around for something to happen! Plumbers and sparkys
> have all the fun!


You would need to go to school and spent years as an apprentice to enjoy that type of excitement. I just thank god for Contractor talk that they allow me participate in these discussions especially being a low level remodeler:shutup:


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## Grumpyplumber

ChillaWatt said:


> I don't know how GCs got into the blame here. The ones that should be held accountable are the landlord for not hiring a licensed plumber and the handymen if they contracted illegally. Here in Cali, you have to be licensed to contract for $500 or more, and more importantly, to pull permits. This job would require a permit, so the 1st handyman would be to blame as well. A lot of GCs also have a plumbing and/or elec. license, so don't even say they are like a handyman. They had to go through all the **** to become licensed and pay a hell of a lot more to be insured, and deal with a lot more stress than a plumber does. Just because you have to work under one isn't justification to denigrate them. Now if a GC was responsible for this mess, then he should be held accountable. Tis not the case here.
> 
> -Chilla


*Nobody is knocking legitimate GC's.*

*The trouble is that some members come here and make that claim.*
*There are unlicensed hacks that label themselves GC's and skip licensed, insured & legitimate help on work they shouldn't be touching, then heap themselves into the same category as legitimate GC's.*

*Part of that problem is the fact that some states prerequisites for licensing for GC's can be very lenient, the other part is the guys that bluff their way through with no licenses at all.*
*It becomes a problem when small remodeling "contractors" fly under the radar by avoiding expenses they shouldn't be, then legitimate contractors con't compete.*
*Then you have a news story about a 4 month old baby dying in an explosion because some slumlord wanted to save a few bucks & he stumbled onto one of them to do the work on the cheap.*
*.*


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## skyhook

mdshunk said:


> _Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
> _ _Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
> Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
> O Lord, kumbaya..._


A Night at the Forum :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## Joasis

Ron The Plumber said:


> GC's don't listen, it's a uphill battle, they insist they can do this without being licensed, will this article shed light to those on here who break the laws of contracting. :no::no::no:



I don't see where the attack on GC's is coming from here....many of us long time members know who and who isn't real. If a plumber came at me with an attitude many of you guys display on the forum, he will seek work elsewhere. 

To be exact, I do listen when the plumber, hvac tech, or electrician have issues...that is what I do, fix problems. I also am the fully responsible person and I make the determination about how the job will be done. Maybe some of you have run across some real winners out there, but that isn't here.


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## Ron The Plumber

Not all on here do that, it's the ones that come in here and ask us plumbers how to install sometime is the ones I'm talking about, which have GC or others titles under there name, they have no business messing with the plumbing if there not licensed to do so. You don't see plumbers asking plumbers how to install something do you, no, why, cause we already know how. 

They do it for the sake of revenues in there business, they don't care if they take work away from the plumbers, I'm glad here in Oregon the Contracting laws protect the trades, sideline GC's here, if caught doing work there not licensed to will get fined. 

Hope that cleared up my comment.


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## Grumpyplumber

joasis said:


> I don't see where the attack on GC's is coming from here....many of us long time members know who and who isn't real. If a plumber came at me with an attitude many of you guys display on the forum, he will seek work elsewhere.
> 
> To be exact, I do listen when the plumber, hvac tech, or electrician have issues...that is what I do, fix problems. I also am the fully responsible person and I make the determination about how the job will be done. Maybe some of you have run across some real winners out there, but that isn't here.


*I keep bringing up the Holmes on homes thing.*
*I forget his numbers, but if I recall he states the vast majority of GC's simply don't have enough experience or knowledge to be running jobs.*
*I have had bad experiences with newer GC's, usually they underestimate scope of work overall and then it comes off the price any way they can...either browbeating or skipping licensed subs, cheap stock, or both.*
*If I were to guess, I'd wager anywhere from 60-70% of contractors are newer, the "here today, gone tomorrow" type.*
*We all reap the benefits of either competing with them, or losing work to them.*
*They flood the market with inexperience & underbids.*
*This forum has a high caliber of tradesmen, generally the longtime members.*
*There are also the newly joined members that ask the obvious questions that tip us off as to their motives, newer members asking how to price full remodels or asking how to wire/plumb bathrooms, kitchens.*
*Bottom line, you can't just decide one day that you'd like to become a GC without having experience.*
*I know my point is universal, you experienced guys go through this...it's NOT about plumbers vs GC's, never was.*


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## rescraft

After readiing the original news story, I was wondering if there might be more to the story.
It said that it was a wall heater that was removed and gas line was not capped. Wall heaters were generally installed in older homes, at least around here and were original equipment. Hopefully it was installed by a licensed plumber and if so, shouldn't there have been a shut-off valve installed ahead of the heater? Are they hard plumbed? Don't know.
Granted, the handyman could have removed the valve if there was one and no doubt he would have been pretty stupid. Would be interesting to know the exact circumstances.
Reminds me of many years ago when our landord's father-in-law "fixed" our water heater. My wife went to turn up the temp and it flamed out in her face! Burned all her eyebrows. We moved shortly thereafter.
Tragedy none the less........


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## essrmo

rescraft said:


> After readiing the original news story, I was wondering if there might be more to the story.
> It said that it was a wall heater that was removed and gas line was not capped. Wall heaters were generally installed in older homes, at least around here and were original equipment. Hopefully it was installed by a licensed plumber and if so,* shouldn't there have been a shut-off valve installed ahead of the heater*? Are they hard plumbed? Don't know.
> Granted, the handyman could have removed the valve if there was one and no doubt he would have been pretty stupid. Would be interesting to know the exact circumstances.
> Reminds me of many years ago when our landord's father-in-law "fixed" our water heater. My wife went to turn up the temp and it flamed out in her face! Burned all her eyebrows. We moved shortly thereafter.
> Tragedy none the less........


you are so right. why didn't one of the plumbers think of that? :confused1:


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## Grumpyplumber

*Thats like asking a school teacher whether there are desks in the classroom.*
*It's a given.*
*For that matter, no mention was made whether there was a valve or not, he obviously left it on if there was.*
*Even if there were no shut-off, this hack should NEVER have walked away with nothing capping that line, I'd wager money he just didn't have anything in stock to cap it or put on a valve, maybe he decided the $25 he charged wasn't enough to pay for a trip to a hardware store.*


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## Bill

Thats some of the problem, a lot of people lowball and find themselves in a situation where they do need to cut corners. My thing is even if I underbid something, take your time and do it right. Cost so much more to hurry and forget than to slow down and remember.


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## MALCO.New.York

skyhook said:


> A Night at the Forum :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


For those of us who have experienced a bit of The Arts and Real Entertainment.


_A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum_.







And for those who have not...........You just will not understand.


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## Cache

ChillaWatt said:


> I don't know how GCs got into the blame here. The ones that should be held accountable are the landlord for not hiring a licensed plumber and the handymen if they contracted illegally. Here in Cali, you have to be licensed to contract for $500 or more, and more importantly, to pull permits. This job would require a permit, so the 1st handyman would be to blame as well. A lot of GCs also have a plumbing and/or elec. license, so don't even say they are like a handyman. They had to go through all the **** to become licensed and pay a hell of a lot more to be insured, and deal with a lot more stress than a plumber does. Just because you have to work under one isn't justification to denigrate them. Now if a GC was responsible for this mess, then he should be held accountable. Tis not the case here.
> 
> -Chilla


Agreed. At least in my state it takes atleast 4 years to become a GC, and two of the four have to be supervisory. There aren't any aspects of building houses that are rocket science. That said, I still hire out ALL plumbing, electric, and HVAC. I do enjoy working along side the plumbers though. If I've got time, there isn't any reason I should be paying the plumber to drill holes in my floors. 

Handymen are a whole different ballgame here. They can't do work for more than $1000 including materials, and under no terms should they ever do plumbing, electrical, or HVAC. Gas lines usually fall under HVAC here. Most plumbers don't work with them. I always found that odd, since plumbers are technically better equipped to work on gas lines than HVAC guys are, as gas lines aren't a whole lot different than water lines. But I guess since the HVAC guys are installing furnace, dryer, fireplace, etc...


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## Ron The Plumber

Cache said:


> Agreed. At least in my state it takes atleast 4 years to become a GC, and two of the four have to be supervisory. There aren't any aspects of building houses that are rocket science. That said, I still hire out ALL plumbing, electric, and HVAC. I do enjoy working along side the plumbers though. If I've got time, there isn't any reason I should be paying the plumber to drill holes in my floors.
> 
> Handymen are a whole different ballgame here. They can't do work for more than $1000 including materials, and under no terms should they ever do plumbing, electrical, or HVAC. Gas lines usually fall under HVAC here. Most plumbers don't work with them. I always found that odd, since plumbers are technically better equipped to work on gas lines than HVAC guys are, as gas lines aren't a whole lot different than water lines. But I guess since the HVAC guys are installing furnace, dryer, fireplace, etc...



This is a first, a builder that knows plumbing is for plumbers. :clap:


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## Cache

Ron The Plumber said:


> This is a first, a builder that knows plumbing is for plumbers. :clap:


I just agree with the statement by the guy who founded Dyson vacuums. In his commercials he says, "I just think things should work properly."

I like DWV systems that don't clog or make my houses smell funny. I like showers that don't lose pressure and/or scald the owners when the toilet is flushed. I don't expect that my clients will appreciate freezing in one room while sweating like a pig in another. I don't think that my lights should dim when someone starts the hair dryer. 

Do I think that I could successfully install most plumbing, HVAC, and electrical? Sure, but what are the chances that a detail might be forgotten or go unnoticed? For example, on my last house, the first upstream manhole happened to be about 6" above my basement floor. What are the chances that I would've remembered back water valves? I can always tell myself that I would've remembered before the slab was poured, but who knows. I might've only remembered when there was a blockage in the public sewer system that filled the basement with raw sewage.

Anyway, I prefer my method for cutting cost on plumbing/HVAC/electric. I realized long ago that the labor for these trades far outweighs the materials cost. I simply asked myself whether any aspects of my trade overlap theirs. It turned out that with a little extra planning, my guys can cut their labor in half. There's no reason I should pay a plumber to drill holes, chip out a footer, or dig trenches when I have a grunt that will do it for $8.00/hr. Now I'm effectively paying the professionals half price and it is absolutely worth it to pay them rather than do it myself.


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## Herk

Cache said:


> Now I'm effectively paying the professionals half price and it is absolutely worth it to pay them rather than do it myself.


If you offered to help me at a reduced rate, it would be the last time you ever saw me on the job. Bragging that you're paying pros half price makes me think you're just trying to stir up trouble here.


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## 22rifle

Herk said:


> If you offered to help me at a reduced rate, it would be the last time you ever saw me on the job. Bragging that you're paying pros half price makes me think you're just trying to stir up trouble here.


Hey man, I don't know. I don't like digging ditches or busting concrete that good. If someone asks me how much if I dig the ditch I am all ears. No sense in them paying premium rates for shovel work.

On the other hand, I have a rule. The ditch WILL be dug to my specs, no shortcuts, or I charge the original price.


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## KillerToiletSpider

Herk said:


> If you offered to help me at a reduced rate, it would be the last time you ever saw me on the job. Bragging that you're paying pros half price makes me think you're just trying to stir up trouble here.


He's paying the price, he is just altering the scope of work, I work with a lot of GC's that will do the laborer work to cut costs.


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## Ron The Plumber

Cache said:


> There's no reason I should pay a plumber to drill holes,



You scare the hell out of me, I drill my own holes, for you have no idea where I plan on roughing in my pipes, this is not a builders job.


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## Herk

22 Rifle said:


> Hey man, I don't know. I don't like digging ditches or busting concrete that good. If someone asks me how much if I dig the ditch I am all ears. No sense in them paying premium rates for shovel work.
> 
> On the other hand, I have a rule. The ditch WILL be dug to my specs, no shortcuts, or I charge the original price.


When you dig it yourself, you get what you need rather than what someone else thinks you need. And even if you don't want to dig the ditch or drill the holes in concrete or whatever, you can hire someone or subcontract the work out. Once the feeding frenzy starts with cutting the bid in half because you lose half the work, it will never stop.

When I first started in business about 32 years ago, it was not legal for backhoe operators to install the pipes from the street to the house. They were there to dig. But the law changed and I began to see some of the most horrific things installed. These guys would put in a screwed-up mess and then cover it up so the inspector couldn't see it. And they got away with it by pretending they didn't know they shouldn't cover it up. They got cut slack that plumbers wouldn't get.

Part of the plumbing trade is, or should be, a dedication to the job and the quality of work that I simply don't see in the other trades very often. "That's good enough" becomes the watchword. There are builders who do beautiful work and then there are builders who care about nothing but how much they can take from the people down the food chain to keep in their own larder. If you work for them, expect to find your own prosperity begin to dwindle.


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## paintr56

22rifle said:


> OK, so he didn't do it on purpose but it would not be a huge stretch to string him up for involuntary manslaughter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.charlotte.com/171/story/690196.html
> 
> And that my friends, is why some of us say, "Hire a professional plumber" even when the law doesn't require it.


Must be a difference in gas companies or states but when nicor turns on the gas they light the pilots and check for leaks. turns on the gas. At least they did ten years ago the last time I had gas turned on. I take it this is not common practice all over.

Jim


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## Cache

Herk said:


> If you offered to help me at a reduced rate, it would be the last time you ever saw me on the job. Bragging that you're paying pros half price makes me think you're just trying to stir up trouble here.


I never said reduced rate. I'm paying them the normal hourly rate. I'm just not paying them to do unskilled labor. It comes in around half the price because they aren't spending hours upon hours digging trenches, or busting up concrete. It's also nothing for my guys to frame things in a bit differently so that the plumber isn't constantly running into obstacles. Open web floor trusses, 2x6 walls in appropriate places, plenums, etc... These all reduce the number of skilled labor hours for the plumber. Not to mention keeping the plumber in mind when designing the house in the first place.

It takes my plumber about 20 minutes to throw down paint lines for the ground plumbing and tell me how deep he wants them. Depending on the soil characteristics, it might take him 4-6 hours to dig the trenches and bust the edges off the footings. Even if he has one of his grunts do the digging he still charges me his regular rate. My grunt only gets $8/hr. 

Essentially what I'm getting at is that there is nothing special about the trench. Nobody deserves $60/hr to dig a trench by hand. Same thing goes for many of the holes that need to be cut in the framing. It only takes my plumber a minute to mark where he wants a hole. 

The same thing applies to electric and other skilled jobs. There are aspects to every job that don't take any skill and the professional doesn't really like doing it in the first place. I know a lot of electricians who don't like to pull wire; many will gladly let you do it so that it's ready for them the next day. I'm paying them for their expertise in their field. Any idiot can drill a hole and pull a 12 guage wire through it.


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## Cache

Ron The Plumber said:


> You scare the hell out of me, I drill my own holes, for you have no idea where I plan on roughing in my pipes, this is not a builders job.


I'm not saying every hole or cut. Say we are running a PEX home-run system in a two story house with a full basement; 2 laundry rooms, 4-5 bathrooms, 2 kitchens, etc... Especially if we built with TJI floors there's gonna be a lot of drilling. Placement and drilling of those holes isn't rocket science. It's right on par with pulling wire.


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## Cache

Herk said:


> When you dig it yourself, you get what you need rather than what someone else thinks you need. And even if you don't want to dig the ditch or drill the holes in concrete or whatever, you can hire someone or subcontract the work out. Once the feeding frenzy starts with cutting the bid in half because you lose half the work, it will never stop.
> 
> When I first started in business about 32 years ago, it was not legal for backhoe operators to install the pipes from the street to the house. They were there to dig. But the law changed and I began to see some of the most horrific things installed. These guys would put in a screwed-up mess and then cover it up so the inspector couldn't see it. And they got away with it by pretending they didn't know they shouldn't cover it up. They got cut slack that plumbers wouldn't get.
> 
> Part of the plumbing trade is, or should be, a dedication to the job and the quality of work that I simply don't see in the other trades very often. "That's good enough" becomes the watchword. There are builders who do beautiful work and then there are builders who care about nothing but how much they can take from the people down the food chain to keep in their own larder. If you work for them, expect to find your own prosperity begin to dwindle.


I'm glad you take pride in your work and I'm sure it is fine work too. My opinions and stances on this come from years of experience in process engineering and business/financial consulting. It is natural and necessary for things to become more efficient, allowing for the same quality at a lower cost. Paying a master plumber his normal wage to dig a trench breaks almost every rule of efficient/profitable business. 

My plumber is incredibly busy even during this housing slump. He does good work and he works hard and people know it. He doesn't need to bid out my job because he isn't marking up materials and he bills those out seperately. I pay him a fair hourly rate for a professional plumber in this area. While I'm getting trenches dug he is free to go work another job and make more money. He works the same number of hours in a day regardless of whether he works for one person or two, but working for two people allows him to double his market share and exposure. He also doesn't have to spend his time in the dirt with a jackhammer and shovel.

I had the plumbing on my last job bid by another plumber just to see where others were coming in at. The bid was about $15K. I asked him what he would charge for hourly work and he was right about what I pay my regular plumber. When the job was done, the bill from my plumber was about $8K. When comparing the two, there were two big differences. The first was that materials from my plumber were 20% cheaper as the other plumber was charging me retail prices and pocketing the difference. The second was that my plumber only charged me for time spent doing skilled labor, as I had my grunt do the garbage work. The other plumber didn't look at my plans and realize the time savings in the framing methods. He probably just bid it out per fixture or something. But, the way I framed it resulted in a 50% time savings on the DWV and water line install. In the end, I paid a fair wage for the work done.


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