# Lath or no Lath



## Rugkicker (May 10, 2006)

I am installing a shower pan floor.The subfloor is wood but was unlevel.I applied Self Leveling Compound.I am going to install a pre pitch kit from Mark E Industries,then pack the proper "mud" around that. Then apply the pan. and so on.My question is, do I need to put metal lath for the mud under the pre pitch kit scince it is going to be applied to the SLC and not a moisture barrier type surface(felt/plastic)Will a latex bonding agent work?Either in the mud mix instead of water? 50/50 mix? Directly to the SLC perhaps? This shower is only a 60" by 36". very small. Thinks..while I have you here..whats the best type of thinset to use for wall tile in a shower. Tile is 1'x1'. 

Rugkicker


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

The Ceramic Tile Education Foundation (CTEF) offers regular classes to teach would-be tileguys and shower installers the proper methods for installing a long lasting shower. There are other sources for learning available around the country also. In addition there are books that talk about this subject.:thumbsup:


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## Rugkicker (May 10, 2006)

I'll just spend the 14 bucks and put lath down.Thanks for answering my question.:notworthy 

RK


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## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

What's the lath for, the SLC, how are you building this?, all you have to do is put the lath over tar paper on the wood floor, then place your pre-slope mud on this, that will level and fix everything, what you have said makes no sense.:no:


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## Rugkicker (May 10, 2006)

the wood floor is eneven from one side to the other..when I put the pre picth kit before its leveled..it still may have its rise..but one side will still be lower than the other. Everyody says start with a level floor. THATS what I have now. a level floor.because of the SLC. so scine the mud is going over that and not tar paper,do I need lath? I have plastic under the SLC by the way.by the time You read this I will have it done. But I would still like to see what anybody has to say.I am going to use lath..cause it wont hurt nothin and only makes it better I assume.I have been laying floors for over ten years but this is my first shower.Its my on home which I built and have done all my own work.Havent done alot of tile work but enough to know enough to get buy in my own Home if I ask questions like this.You guys are a great help and I have a good laugh everyday. Keep up the good work.:thumbup:


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## MattCoops (Apr 7, 2006)

I've done 6 shower pans in past 5 months and none of them had level floors. Unless you're dealing with a concrete slab it's tough to have a plumb floor. Same goes with perfectly straight walls, its a rareity. 

To do a shower pan:

1. Turn on the radio
2. put your kneepads on
3. cut 3" drain pipe flush to subfloor and rough in flange and drain. Screw drain at least 3/4" above top of flange
4. staple 15lb roofing felt on subfloor in shower area
5. Mix up some mud (when I say mud, I'm talking 1 part clean sand to 4 parts type 2 portland cement and a little water) and build up a pre slope. (here you can level off) I like to nail two 2x4s over one another for a form for a curb
6. Lay a waterproof liner. Cut an "x" and stuff liner inside drain. And have enough liner to wrap over curb and up studs at least 3".
7. Screw 1/2" cement board over studs. Stay up at least 4" from bottom of studs as not to penetrate waterproof liner. Mesh tape and mud your seams.
8. take a break
9. lay your lathe and mix some mud to build your pan. Make sure you have enough bags of mud (generally at least 5 bags should do ya for a 36" pan). Pack it in far corners to start, and work your way to drain. Drag mud out with flat trowel to a slope of 1/4" for every foot. Set your level down regularly checking your perimeters for any high - low spots. 
10. I use two trowels on curb. One as a "fence" flat up face and the other to smooth the top. I like a nice crisp square line over curb
11. wait 24 hr period for cure. drink some beers
12. mix up some FlexBond thin-set mortar and tile your shower pan. Use a 1/4" notched trowel to trail your thinset, and slap down your tile. Keep thinset out of your grout lines (it's a pain to get rid of after curing). Use a compass and a dremel tool to cut your drain cutout.
13. Let that cure, and jump in to tile your walls. Same deal, FlexBond thinset and tile away. I like to start a * hair short of a tile height above pan and screw a 2x4 "ledger" level across to have a straight level reference line to set tile up from. Then come back next day and do cuts for bottom.
14. Mix up some grout, float it down in joints and corners. Clean up within hour with clean bucket of cold water and big fat sponge.
15. Wait a day and sponge on some silicone seal. Don't use the lazy dude hairspray can crap. Get the stuff in the green bottle. If you have stone tile, make sure it's a penetrating sealer.

It's a big job, but can be lots of fun.

Good luck


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## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

3. 2" is what you need, if wood floor, and using PVC, nothing to screw down yet, cut the pipe 3/4" below the finished floor and glue on the bottom part of the drain, if oatey drain, this method will make it sit on the finished floor with 1/2" or so for the pre-slope mud.

5. 4 parts damp mason sand to 1 part portland is a better mix, 2 parts portland is TOO rich and would be a PITA to finish and pack, it will stick to everything, depending on the size of the pan, 3 2xs will work better.

The Liner should be at least 8" above the finished curb, not 3".

A vapor barrier is now installed over the studs and down over the top of the liner, then the cemenboard is installed and comes down over the liner to within 1/4 to 1/2" above the liner on the floor, do not screw or nail the boards through the liner anywhere, the second mud bed holds the boards tight to the walls at the bottom.

9. No lath needed for the mud bed and shouldn't be used, you use it over the curb only with fat mud[mason mix] to shape and build the curb, Noble makes a pre-fab curb that's alot easier to install and no mud or lath needed, just some thinset and nails on the outside.

13. DO NOT screw or nail up a ledger board anywhere near the bottom, you will put holes in the liner behind the walls.

15. I would wait at least 72 hrs. or better yet a week before sealing, and you seal only the grout, unless using natual stone.

Hope this clears up a few issues.:whistling


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## MattCoops (Apr 7, 2006)

2" drains are for sinks, not for showers
shower drain should be 3 or 4 inch
most are 3

TCA requirements state "membrane or pan to turn up wall at least 3" above shower curb (6" avove floor in showers without curbs)"
(2006 TCA handbook - Method B414-05)

ANSI A108.1A calls for Mortar bed mix in shower receptor to be "1-part portland cement and 4-parts damp sand, by volume."

my bad, I had mix up above, meant 4 part sand to 1 part type II portland cement
I cheat and use Michigan mud mix in a big black bag. It already comes mixed with sand and type 2 portland

oh, and TCA says to surround drain with crushed tile to prevent mortar from blocking weep holes


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Residential drains are usually measured by the size of the egress pipe, not necessarily the size of the strainer.

Residential: Sink drains are typically 1-1/4" egress, tub drains are typically 1-1/2" egress, shower drains are typically 2" egress, commodes are typically 3" or 4" egress.

It's OK to quote the reg's but it's better if one understands what he is reading in those reg's.

:clap: Finally got him to look at the spec's. I am impressed.


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## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

Sink-1 1/4"

Tubs-1 1/4 to 1/2"

Showers-2"


4" shower drain? Love to see that P-Trap.  

Gotta go have desert, bye.:whistling

Tca says crushed tile, have to give em a call on that, pea gravel or tile spacers work fine, I have a pile of pea gravel behind the garage, should last a life time.:w00t:


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