# whats the going rate per square



## 747

In Kankakee County, Illinois its 225-235. For 30year like tamko.


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## Affordable Home

Guys, I'm new to Contractor talk. I'm in South West Illinois and have been a General Contractor for 5 years now. Recently I have been interested in getting my roofing lisence, should be taking the test in about 3-4 weeks. I'm glad I found this site because I've learned alot in just 2 weeks of being a member. I'm interested in roofing only because I've done dozens and they put money in my pocket when the economy seems slow. I'll be keeping my eye on this site and taking notes from everyone. Any comments/suggestions would be appreciated. AH


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## Ed the Roofer

Affordable Homes,

You asked for any suggestions.

Participate, inquire, and make commentary on how and why you do things a particular way. Then learn from your own and others responses.

Most of the things I have learned on this forum are things I have heard before, but by continually having the same things sliced and discussed and interpreted in different ways from multiple opinions, I have relearned most of them and have taken action on that knowledge.

Ed


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## Ten Fingers

I back my dump trailer in the driveway right up to the house, if its a walkable roof, and throw shingles directly into it. How much does it cost to pick up a whole roofs worth of debris off the ground and put it in the dumpster?


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## dougger222

Ten Fingers said:


> I back my dump trailer in the driveway right up to the house, if its a walkable roof, and throw shingles directly into it. How much does it cost to pick up a whole roofs worth of debris off the ground and put it in the dumpster?


I agree 100%. If my dump trailer is not able to get up to the house my price goes up. When you don't throw the roofing debris into the dump trailer your carrying everything twice. Anything over a 8/12 I set up tarps on the eaves and let it all buck.

See lots of imagrant workers who lay tarps on 4-6/12's and toss all the debris onto the tarps which are usually covering bushes and plants and such. Had a home owner last Fall point to the two houses down the street that had debris and tarps every were and said, "I don't want that in my yard". Only thing I can think of is there must be a few people on the crews that are afraid of heights so to make work for them they toss everything on the ground?

What works best is to tarp the drive then drive over the tarp and back up to the garage. When the job is done all you have to do is pull the trailer in the street round up the tarps and be done with it.


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## AaronB.

...and run the magnets before you move the truck and trailer (very important with dump trailers)


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## PA woodbutcher

*Upstate NY pricing*

I need to bid a 55 sq ranch. 17 sq @ a 5/12 and the rest is 8/12. Gonna be a real b!t<h to tear off because of the obstacle course around it. 5 valleys totaling 130' and roughly 190' of gutter and 184' ridge vent. I would like to tear it off because thats where the quality and nice looking job comes in. The house is 12 years old and has a cerainteed "shangle" on it (I don't think I like em). It is leaking in one of the valleys, not sure where, but can't be more than 10' up. A tear off was evan more of a possibility until I read the other post about the shingles sticking to the I&W (can't tell you how much I appreciate that discussion). Built a garage for the HO last fall and don't think money will be an overriding factor, but would like the job and don't want to do it for nothing. Also not sure rather to use a 30 year Tamko arch or 30 year timberline. Haven't been back in the business long enough to form an opinion. All help and opinions are appreciated


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## Ed the Roofer

If money will not be a hinderance to the HO for proper level of a quality job, then inform him that the roof should be torn off and that the eave deck sheathing may need to be removed and replaced if the shingle are stuck to the previously applied I & W shield.

Its a better job and allows for additional profit. I charge on a per square foot basis, with the prices right in the proposal and then when it is discovered if any decking needs replacement, I confirm it in a written update to the specifications change order, In Writing and Signed by the HO at the time discovered.

A really good thick shingle to offer as an upgrade for your premium category is theCertainteed Landmark TL. Especially with an 8/12 pitch on 75 % on the house. Make sure you add in for valley metal flashings with that upgraded choice selection.

I personally also like the Tamko Heritage shingle line over the GAF Timberline ones. Google "GAF class action lawsuits", and you will see why. But, there will be many other roofers who like the Timberlines instead. It's a matter of personal preference.

1st option: 30 year architectural
2nd option: 50 year architectural
3rd option: Lifetime architectural

Give yourself increased profit margins on each of the upgraded choices. I charge an additional $ 130.00 more for the Landmark TL's over the CT 30 year 3-tabs as my guideline for aditional profitability.

Ed


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## ipitydafoolz

One other advantage of a dump trailer over dumpsters is that it is also a nice tax write off. Also being able to back up the dump trailer to the house at different spots saves tons of time and money over having to pick up everything and move it to the dumpster. This can give you a nice way of reducing costs. Unstead spending $200 or $300 paying people to pickup the shingles and put them in the dumpster just take 2 minutes and back the trailer up before tearoff. Also being able to remove all the debris when finished and not having a dumpster sitting in the drive way is just another selling point that could give you a little edge over competition. Also you can properly clean the drive way before you leave unstead of hoping that there is no nails under the dumpster or that any fell out when the dumpster is removed. Customers with nails in there tires aren't happy. I have also had pissed off customers when some companies drop the dumpster off at 5:30 or 6 in the morning. I have done it both ways but have found dump trailers save a ton of money, (even when factoring in paying myself for 1 hour of my time), maintenance is next to nothing, and the maintenance that rarely does happen is a tax writeoff anyway, also looks more professional when a customer leaves for work in the morning with a ****ty roof and comes home after work with a nice new roof and all the crap gone with no disruption what so ever. just my 2cents


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## dougger222

The Timberline 30 is an ok shingle. The only time I've laid Tamko shingles was on a 220 sq hotel, they were three tabs and blew off until the roof was totaled by hail and replaced with laminates. Have a 6 year old Timberline roof with some cracks but it got totaled for hail.

Some people really like the Tamko Heritage shingle, but I've never laid them. Other than Certainteed Landmarks and GAF Timberlines the Tamko's may be the only other decent 30 year laminate made. 

In the past I've been able to tear off all the shingles stuck to the ice and water shield except the small portion left were the top of the shingle is still stuck to the ice and water. When putting new ice and water over the top and when using laminate shingles the uniformity of the tops of the shingles left on the old ice and water makes it impossible to detect when shingling and when looking at it.

The correct way would be to tear off the decking and re-deck but most home owners won't pay for it.


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## huber

*huber*

when a customer asked me if i could come down on price i said i already am as low as i can. is it good to negotiate ? it seems to me that if you negotiate, customers get the idea that added xtra money on top just to see if you can get it.so i always thought it was a good ideato say "i've given the best price i could. but maybe offer to omit something or offer to let them clean up does that sound normal


HKU Student said:


> You guys sure go back and forth a lot over apples and oranges. Everyone knows labor rates in the north east are higher, so when a guy from "Taxachusetts" says he gets $375/sq and me being a BC in north Fla. is use to paying $200 it doesn't suprise me. As far as the dumpster vs "I have my own haulin stuff" I'm sure when whoever sits down and wares the keys out on his pocket calculator he charges what works best for him. Only time will tell who stacked his cards right and who didn't.


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## nolo

I was at Lowes the other day and they charge $155 a square for labor only. I know that lowes just hires an outside contractor. Lowes needs to make a little off the top I guess. With some of the prices you guys have been stating, I might reconsider doing the job myself. I don't really want to hire a shady company, but how much would a reputable company charge for labor only? I'm thinking $80 to $100 a square. I would pay for a 20 yard dumpster and all materials. You guys should never compete with price. You will drive yourself out of business. That is one of the first things they taught me in my college marketing class. Always try to increase the perception of value in the customers minds. If a roofer came and told me how he uses six nails per shingle, adds nails to the sheathing 6" OC on the edges and 12" OC in the fields, uses high quality 30# felt, stands behind his work, etc, my mind would start thinking I am getting more for my money from this guy. I'm not saying to trash talk your competition as some people get turned off by this. I would just state things that you offer that others don't. Even if they do offer the same things, I would just tell them these things as others probably do not.


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## Ed the Roofer

Good points Nolo.

I specify every bit of minute detail in my written specifications, whereas 99% of the competition does not.

A keen and perceptive consumer will definitely see the differences I lay out, and perceive the benefits for them as well.

Ed


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## dougger222

Ed the Roofer said:


> Good points Nolo.
> 
> I specify every bit of minute detail in my written specifications, whereas 99% of the competition does not.
> 
> A keen and perceptive consumer will definitely see the differences I lay out, and perceive the benefits for them as well.
> 
> Ed


A couple years ago got a message, "We got your bid and although your $2,000 more than the other bidder since your estimate was so thurough the only question I've got for you is when can you start?"

On a few of my bids recently I've included very highly detailed roof diagrams which most of the hands on diy home owner types find very interesting. I would like to see the face of a competitor bidding against me if the home owner showed him one of my diagrams. Most would say, "Hmm, can I get a copy of that"!!! Really doubt many roofers go that extra mile to draw up a roof which includes every roof detail, possible soft spots in decking, explain were more vents are to be cut in, etc. When you can acurately show them their roof on the dinner table usually they know you know what your doing!

A large list of referrals is also key and have them meet you at job sites your on so they can see the operation first hand. For the really picky home owners I'll give them a list of the last 5-10 jobs with names, numbers and addresses.


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## RooferJim

Digital camera is another good one. Rooftop pictures say a thousand words.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## Ed the Roofer

Do you print out your photos or create a slide show on a laptop for a video presentation?

Or, do you crop them and insert them into your proposal?

Ed


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## raypenn

Lowes started at that price with us too. But up here in MI they are in a hurt for buss just like all of us are. Plus they are finally trying to get that contractor buss that HD is screwing up. They now are bending over backwards for our roofing and window bussiness. 

We give them about 3 window and roof jobs per month now. Usually 13-15 windows per job and roofs avg 15 sq on two story bunglows. Older Detroit homes so some of them come in at 3 layer tear off.

Last week they did a roof for me that was a 15 sq, 3 layer tear off with 60 ft of gutter replacement. 30 year arch's. for $ 2930.00. Now I did supply the dumpster since I allready have one on site for the remodel.

As for windows they are coming in about 15% higher than the local companies but they are using the low end Pella vinyl windows. We think the extra cost is justified since we can use the Pella name and the Lowe's warranties as a marketing plus for us. People know them two brand names. Even if the windows are no better than the local brand, the name sells.

Prices are real low up here. Hell was at the pawn shops the other day and there where 30 hitachi coil guns sitting on the shelf. Its prime season right now and the roofers are pawning their tools. If you want a cheap roof MI is the place to get it. But if you want to work stay away from here.. lol

good luck all


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## tnt specialty

We've had dump trucks, dump trailers, used roll-offs ....done it all over the years.

Grumpy seems to have a handle on it.

Dump trailers make no sense to us unless your running at least two or three a day, and have a full-time driver/maintenance/mechanic running them. Your spinning your wheels otherwise. JOOHE


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## dougger222

My Uncle rented a dumpster the other day and it never came. Lucky for him and the home owner my dump trailer was empty for a day so the debris pile was taken care of on Saturday rather than Monday.

I hope to never have to rent another dumpster again. What a waste of money.


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## dougger222

It's all goes back to renting versus owning. Most people know owning is better than renting. I used to rent a house once, what a waste of money.


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## PAPERSTREET

PlainPainter said:


> I love when guys talk about charging only like $180/square whether just tacking on a new roof or rip and replace. The way I look at it.
> If you are a fully insured and licensed roofer - paying workmans comp.
> If you pay your roofer $20/hour over the table. And you have to pay for your equipment, re-investment in the company, trucks, truck repairs, gas, fax, office, accountant - you just add up all the crazy money it takes to run a contracting firm - heck don't forget storage costs, nosy neigbors will report you to town officials if you treat your property like it's commercially zoned. And then heck - afterall you want profit - because you have to earn a living running a company, paying out payroll, visiting clients, doing estimates - heck the minimum you can charge per man hour is $75 for a $20/hr worker. Now figure in the time to set up ladders against a house with ladder brackets - and a pic to go across so you can start on the first row - and the labor to move 2x10's rough sawn 16 foot long planks and roof brackets. And then the time to lay bituthane - drip edge - felt - ridge vent - after all is said and done it takes a minium of two hours on average per square to tack on a roof. That's now $150/sq. labor. Now the last roof I did, 35 sqaures of timberline 30 year architectural - when I added up all the costs of nails - drip edge - tar - felt - ice&wate shield - ridge vents - starter strips - flashing - vent flashings - etc. I added up all these costs on my bills and it averaged $125/sq. in materials!!!!! Sure you can cover a square with three bundles - but at $20/bundle plus tax - that's only half the story! So now you are up to $275/sq. to put up new roofing. You wanna rip? that runs $100/sq to pay all your guys up on the roof to rip and to pay all your guys on the ground to pick up the mess and haul it over to the dumpster. Now we're up to $375/sq. and of course add the cost of the dumpster - cost me about $625 for a 35 sq. roof with overtime and overweight - customers think dumpsters are a free for all to clean out their garage - well guess what that will run you $200 extra when they go to weigh the mess. So now we're up to $395/sq.
> 
> Anyways I had to rant - just wanted to educate some newbies who might be inclined to believe they can roof for such ridiculously low amounts of money - you'll go broke - do the math - when all else fails, in the end you know that one plus one equals two, not three!
> 
> -plainpainter


Its impossible to compare a market like Florida with anywhere else in the country, with the exception of possibly California. If you charged those amounts in arkansas, you would be out of business in 3 months. NO ONE would hire you. If everyone got that much per square, then contractors would not be so gungho to travel to Florida.


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## dougger222

Grumpy said:


> If nobody is buying anything, how would the tradesman stay in business either? I think a salesman will do better than the tradesman in these hard times because the salesman will be able to convince the customer to buy before the tradesman can. The tradesman will just fall back on price, pushing himself further into the recession. In addition a good salesman will know how to generate leads, where as the trades man may not.
> 
> That's not to say tradesmen can't sell, only that it's a different set of skills. One person can be a tradesman and a sales man, they are not mutually exclusive always, but they usually are.
> 
> I think the BUSINESSman has a leg up on both the tradesman and salesman, because a business man will understand how business works and understand how to utilize the skills of the tradesmen and the salesmen that work for him and how to use both skill sets in unisyn. The tradesman may only understand his trade, and the salesman may only know how to sell. You've got to know how to manage your business to hold it all together, especially in the rough times.


Oh, now it's a third party, the businessman, nice!


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## RooferJim

Paperstreet you are wrong. I have not done any reroofs for under say 400 per square in several years. Yes that included walkable ranches. The thing of it is is that we do not price jobs by the square so to speak. I also always have a backlog "even now when its 15 degrees". I deliver quality and value and have a strong word of mouth clientell. the cheap guys are going out of business here left and right and deserve too. Like I said, roofers suffer from low self esteem.


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## davinci

for a 2 layer tear off using a tmberline 30 year i get between 275 and 300 a sq no problem. thats a walkable and includes a dumpster.if its a roof under 20 sq,i am charging 350-400. some guys get 500-600 per sq.


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## PAPERSTREET

RooferJim said:


> Paperstreet you are wrong. I have not done any reroofs for under say 400 per square in several years. Yes that included walkable ranches. The thing of it is is that we do not price jobs by the square so to speak. I also always have a backlog "even now when its 15 degrees". I deliver quality and value and have a strong word of mouth clientell. the cheap guys are going out of business here left and right and deserve too. Like I said, roofers suffer from low self esteem.


Jim,
where are you located at? I only sell/install stone coated steel, and the occasional torch or epmd, but I know a lot of shingle contractors here, and i assure you they are not charging that.


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## PAPERSTREET

*poor assumptions*

RooferJim,
I found on you on the web and it appears you are located in Massachusetts. How can you tell me I am wrong if you roof a couple of thousand miles away? Do you travel here to work?


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## Grumpy

dougger222 said:


> Oh, now it's a third party, the businessman, nice!


Aren't we all running a business? I was talking about the business man in my post before your reply abotu the salesman. Like I said "being the world's best tradesman doesn't quality one to runa business." I didn't say anything about selling. 

This is a business I am running, and businesses are like a chair with multiple legs. The Production leg, the sales leg, the administration leg, and the Legal/Financial leg. I as the businessman don't need to know how to do all 4, but I need to know how to find people who do and how to hold all the sub-ordinates together. They are the bricks and I am the mortar. 

I've said this all before. But I will also add for clarification, being the worlds best salesman also doesn't qualify you to run a business either. Though trade skills and sales skills help, the sooner we all let go of the day to day mechanics and focus on orgninizing and managing our employees the sooner we all will start to make real money. 

Often what you find when you have a tradesman running a business is he struggles because he doesn't truly understand how much he should be charging, and though he might do a great roof he struggles because he is cutting his own throat and losing money job after job. Often times what you find when you have a salesman running a business is he is overly optimistic and though he might be charging a good price he might not have the quality control. Also when the going get's tough because of that lack of quality control he might be stuck. But hopefully if he is truly a salesman he was charging enough to compensate for those flaws.

I think the business man ties it all together and knows how to play on other peoples's strengths but most importantly knows his own flaws and weaknesses. He will have that salesman selling and focusing on what he does best. He will have that roofer installing and fixing and focusing on what he does best. Each person within his business will be specialists at what they do, and not be multi-hat-wearing multi-taskers that most business owners seem to be because they don't know how to delegate. 

That's what I am talking about.


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## Grumpy

PAPERSTREET said:


> Jim,
> where are you located at? I only sell/install stone coated steel, and the occasional torch or epmd, but I know a lot of shingle contractors here, and i assure you they are not charging that.


I bet you can find some who do, or near to it. Just look at the guys who service the yuppies and the high high end residential areas. Someone may work within the poorest state of the union, but there will be pockets of money even in those poor areas. 

Even here it won't be uncommon for someone to be bidding half what I charge. The point being, yeah mayben the poorest areas it's uncommon to charge top dollar, but it does happen.

And my personal opinion of storm chasers... well I don't want to start to get insulting. Let's just say I can't phathom any reason why someone would chase storms across the country. I'd rather dig roots here in this community. Someone tell me who's honoring those guy's warranty's when they are out of state chasing a storm? Someone tell me who is getting those guys referrals when they are out of state and have probably changed their phone number.


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## PAPERSTREET

Grumpy said:


> I bet you can find some who do, or near to it. Just look at the guys who service the yuppies and the high high end residential areas. Someone may work within the poorest state of the union, but there will be pockets of money even in those poor areas.
> 
> Even here it won't be uncommon for someone to be bidding half what I charge. The point being, yeah mayben the poorest areas it's uncommon to charge top dollar, but it does happen.
> 
> And my personal opinion of storm chasers... well I don't want to start to get insulting. Let's just say I can't phathom any reason why someone would chase storms across the country. I'd rather dig roots here in this community. Someone tell me who's honoring those guy's warranty's when they are out of state chasing a storm? Someone tell me who is getting those guys referrals when they are out of state and have probably changed their phone number.


Grumpy, I am not going to say that there is no one here that will pay those kinds of prices, but it is a very small percentage. We are not regulated like florida, with the constant inspections, permit fees, etc. This enables just about anyone to roof. Obviously this drives the price down. i normally only work in high-end neighborhoods, usually the nicest in whatever city I am in. I install a product that here runs between 5-700 per square for new construction. In Florida they are getting a couple of hundred dollars a square more. My whole point was that you can't determine pricing in an area if you have not worked there.


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## BattleRidge

PAPERSTREET said:


> Its impossible to compare a market like Florida with anywhere else in the country, with the exception of possibly California. If you charged those amounts in arkansas, you would be out of business in 3 months. NO ONE would hire you. If everyone got that much per square, then contractors would not be so gungho to travel to Florida.


Same in Montana. They would laugh in their faces. I have a good reputation, and get alot of calls here for roof replacements, since I get full I get ahold of other subs and we basically hook each other up with jobs when the other can't do it. Or if it is to large to handle on our own. Out of 6 or 7 subs they have never given me a price like that. People would just call someone else here.


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## dougger222

My business is also reputation run. It's the word of mouth or repeat customers that keep the ball rolling. Some home owners question my price others don't. Some get other bids some don't. This year my advertising cost will be $1,250, I hope to do one roof as a return. Last year the advertising cost was $1,400 and did half a million in roofing.

I subbed from a reputation based insurance restoration company who brings in around $7 million a year in MN only a couple years ago. They had a handfull of signs and only put them in very far away towns from their office. They do no door to door and no advertising, $2 million of that is in roofing.


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## motohopson

*Try Roofing in Cenral Oregon*

If I were to bid a re-roof in the Oregon market anywhere around 300 bucks a square clients would laugh in my face. High market around here is 180 a square with material, tear off, and install. Thats with a 30 year arc comp shingle, ice and water sheild and 30lb felt. Guys around here make descent money at that price. Not sure what your material costs are but those prices semm way out of bounds, anround here anyways. Low market here is 140. First time on website. Funny.


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