# What is your acceptable square tolerance?



## NYCB

I love the masonry forum, its always good for conversations.

Reading the responses I got I got a little mad at myself and just went through all the plans again figuring my diagonals. I plan on sharpening that sucker right up on Monday, I just have to give the dumb end of the tape to my helper.

As fjn said about the batter boards, the same thing happened with this guy. I started building them and he goes "you guys actually use those huh?"

I am glad I didn't set up boards before they dug though because the exacavator took all the dirt from the hole and spread out out on this little 1/3 acre lot, he raised the place like 4 ft., would have buried them.

To those of you who use those lasers that shoot the square lines, how well do they work outdoors?


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## The Coastal Craftsman

sitdwnandhngon said:


> I love the masonry forum, its always good for conversations.
> 
> Reading the responses I got I got a little mad at myself and just went through all the plans again figuring my diagonals. I plan on sharpening that sucker right up on Monday, I just have to give the dumb end of the tape to my helper.
> 
> As fjn said about the batter boards, the same thing happened with this guy. I started building them and he goes "you guys actually use those huh?"
> 
> I am glad I didn't set up boards before they dug though because the exacavator took all the dirt from the hole and spread out out on this little 1/3 acre lot, he raised the place like 4 ft., would have buried them.
> 
> To those of you who use those lasers that shoot the square lines, how well do they work outdoors?



In the dark prob pretty well. I have used them upto 120ft in a warehouse to square out some areas. I need to use the target to see the line though. I wouldn't have any problem using the 3-4-5 method with string lines outdoors though. That can be as accurate as you can read the tape.


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## JBM

You guys are a riot. 1/8 in 100 feet? lol. ok. Cutting a foot on a 100' tape will get an 1/8th out of whack just doing that. I would be suprized of closets are less then an 1/8th out of square let alone a whole foundation or frame. 

I had to look again to see if it said NASA on the homepage.


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## Jaws

JBM said:


> You guys are a riot. 1/8 in 100 feet? lol. ok. Cutting a foot on a 100' tape will get an 1/8th out of whack just doing that. I would be suprized of closets are less then an 1/8th out of square let alone a whole foundation or frame.
> 
> I had to look again to see if it said NASA on the homepage.[/QUOTE
> " its within an inch, its close enough :thumbsup::whistling
> :no:
> 
> 
> W/E :laughing::laughing:


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## fjn

*Square*



JBM said:


> You guys are a riot. 1/8 in 100 feet? lol. ok. Cutting a foot on a 100' tape will get an 1/8th out of whack just doing that. I would be suprized of closets are less then an 1/8th out of square let alone a whole foundation or frame.
> 
> I had to look again to see if it said NASA on the homepage.


 The 1/8" in 100+ feet is not a joke.Once again,here is what we do. Erect batter boards BEFORE excavation,that way you do not need stilts or step lader to check string lines.Set batter boards dead level so lines do not bind one another. Use straight pins to pin lines together as they cross,place pins in line to establish measuring point. DO NOT even think about bringing your fiberglass tape to my jobsite, (i can make it read anything i want within 5/8" in 75 ft. by how hard i pull on it ).Use a steel tape,dummy end burns ft. as mentioned,dummy end holds right edge of tape to pin,buisness end holds left end to pin,50 ft. or more,someone supports center.


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## Jaws

Its not rocket science:thumbsup::no:


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## ohiohomedoctor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWKcisdE0_Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player

What?


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## fjn

*square*

Bye the way,forgot to mention,In the book Measuring And Marking by John Carroll there is the math formula on how to compute the diagonal measurments. With the formula you can do it with a $1.oo calculator and leave the high priced construction master on the shelf. I compute all diagonals at my kitchen table not in the burning sun,and mark the plans,it saves time cause you know your number before you put a tape to it. Try it once,you will love it,it is a big money saver.


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## cleveman

What kind of tools/materials are you guys using?

I have a couple of steel tapes, I think they must be 150 footers. I have a large reel-up vinyl tape which I use for rough measuring.

For line, I use masonry line. I have heard that some people use wire.

My projects are always within 1/4" on the diagonals. This means to me that on a 24x72 building for example, this is as close as you can get holding a metal tape, maybe in a breeze.

Don't you guys ever wonder when you're pulling the tape if you need to put a torque wrench on it to see if you are pulling the same on both diagonals? If you are a 1/4" too short, can't you just pull the tape harder?

One trick I can share when squaring up something for laying tile for example, is that I will use the 3-4-5 theorem and pull off a screw head with my tape, marking a radius. Then I do the same from the other point. Where the radii or whatever intersect, that is my point that I pull a line through.


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## fjn

cleveman said:


> What kind of tools/materials are you guys using?
> 
> I have a couple of steel tapes, I think they must be 150 footers. I have a large reel-up vinyl tape which I use for rough measuring.
> 
> My projects are always within 1/4" on the diagonals. This means to me that on a 24x72 building for example, this is as close as you can get holding a metal tape, maybe in a breeze.
> 
> Don't you guys ever wonder when you're pulling the tape if you need to put a torque wrench on it to see if you are pulling the same on both diagonals? If you are a 1/4" too short, can't you just pull the tape harder?
> 
> I would never waste my money on a vinyl tape,if you think you can make a steel tape read what you want by a 1/4" a vinyl tape is off the chart. As far as the torque wrench goes, i would rely on intution on the pull. That is the same intution that makes the human mind pick up the rise on the first stair in a run. That is why the codes will not let there be more than 3/16" in entire run,the mind picks it up instantly and causes a trip hazard.


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## ohiohomedoctor

I have used metal fishing line to check diagonals. Mark one then check other. Can pull very very tight/straight. I am more worried that the measurements are the same verses what the measurements are.


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## fjn

*Square*

For you guys who still think 1/8" is not realistic here goes. When i was in Egypt i learned the pyramids on the Giza plateau are out of square by about 2 inches. Here is why,after 5,500+ years of sand blasting the west end,it blasted 2 inches away. That is not hard to believe,because the natural erosion of limestone is about 1/16" per century. The pyramids are not a fifty foot house. The base is over 13 acres!! The Pharaoh would have fed you to the jackals if you thought 1/4 inch was good enough in 75 feet!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## dom-mas

fjn said:


> For you guys who still think 1/8" is not realistic here goes. When i was in Egypt i learned the pyramids on the Giza plateau are out of square by about 2 inches. Here is why,after 5,500+ years of sand blasting the west end,it blasted 2 inches away. That is not hard to believe,because the natural erosion of limestone is about 1/16" per century. The pyramids are not a fifty foot house. The base is over 13 acres!! The Pharaoh would have fed you to the jackals if you thought 1/4 inch was good enough in 75 feet!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


The pharaoh wouldn't have cared how square the house of the guy who sold him watermelon was. The pyramids were built over decades and had labour forces in the thousands that were being guided by whips(or was it just ancient aliens?) comparing most buildings (and I would guess 99.9% of the buildings that the members of this forum work on) to them is ludicrous. If anyone here claims to build to the same standards as the pyramids it's asinine


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## Warren

fjn said:


> Bye the way,forgot to mention,In the book Measuring And Marking by John Carroll there is the math formula on how to compute the diagonal measurments. With the formula you can do it with a $1.oo calculator and leave the high priced construction master on the shelf. I compute all diagonals at my kitchen table not in the burning sun,and mark the plans,it saves time cause you know your number before you put a tape to it. Try it once,you will love it,it is a big money saver.


No book needed. Think this was discussed in fourth or fifth grade.

A squared + B squared = C squared. Sounds like everyone here has the math figured out. Putting it into practice over uneven terrain over long distances seems to be the issue. As a framer, I often marvel how accurate some masons are versus others. We can make up a little, but I have seem some doozies that were visibly out of square to my naked eye. Worst was 7 1/2" out in about 24'. Seems that they snapped the wrong side of the block at one end.


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## Jaws

dom-mas said:


> The pharaoh wouldn't have cared how square the house of the guy who sold him watermelon was. The pyramids were built over decades and had labour forces in the thousands that were being guided by whips(or was it just ancient aliens?) comparing most buildings (and I would guess 99.9% of the buildings that the members of this forum work on) to them is ludicrous. If anyone here claims to build to the same standards as the pyramids it's asinine


 Haven't heard anybody claimed to be building to the same standards as the pyramids. No reason we shouldn't try though :thumbsup:

I can tell you right now I don't work on trac homes:no:

If I pull tape across diagonals and it is off by 1/2 of an inch, I am not going to call it good. Try and get it perfect, hopefully that way by the time I pour it is within acceptable tolerances. I wouldn't want anyone working for me who is just say it's good enough and half an inch:no:


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## dom-mas

Jaws said:


> Haven't heard anybody claimed to be building to the same standards as the pyramids. No reason we shouldn't try though :thumbsup:
> 
> I can tell you right now I don't work on trac homes:no:
> 
> If I pull tape across diagonals and it is off by 1/2 of an inch, I am not going to call it good. Try and get it perfect, hopefully that way by the time I pour it is within acceptable tolerances. I wouldn't want anyone working for me who is just say it's good enough and half an inch:no:


I don't work in subdivisions either. And like I said perfection is the aim, but it will never be achieved. Acceptable tolerances are exactly what is being discussed and I am of the opinion that in residential work 3/4" over 100' is very tolerable. most materials and measuring tools aren't within that spec. As others have said, the tape that measures 100' (even with someone holding it in the middle, won't be perfectly accurate because of wind and sag and stretch etc...


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## The Coastal Craftsman

dom-mas said:


> The pharaoh wouldn't have cared how square the house of the guy who sold him watermelon was. The pyramids were built over decades and had labour forces in the thousands that were being guided by whips(or was it just ancient aliens?) comparing most buildings (and I would guess 99.9% of the buildings that the members of this forum work on) to them is ludicrous. If anyone here claims to build to the same standards as the pyramids it's asinine


We can achieve higher standards without issue. They didn't have lasers, they didn't have digital transit levels, they didn't have calculaters that can measure to a fraction of an inch in milliseconds and they didn't have cad programs. It's the person at the end of the tape that makes the difference. Either you can be assed to make it square or you can't. But the extra few mins it takes to make stuff square and plumb pays for its self ten fold when the rest of the work starts.


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## Jaws

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on reasonable tolerances.


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## dom-mas

Jaws said:


> I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on reasonable tolerances.


agreed


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## JesseCocozza

I framed a house last year that was 2" out of square over 40' and I about lost my cool. It was just the footers and slab. How hard is it to actually get it within an 1/8"? I have to agree with the sticklers for perfection on this one. The reason being is that even though I'm a carpenter, I've also dug and poured many-a-footers. It isn't rocket science. This portion that was out of square was in the middle of the house. How then to you justify pulling any measurements for the remainder of the house? Do you compensate for the 2" out of square, or do you carry on trying to square up off of something that isn't square? I get fired up at times wasting a day trying to cheat that variance over the rest of the house. at the end of the day you're either a professional striving for as close to perfect results, or you're not. 

Disclaimer: I've had my mistakes as well, however it's how we choose to rectify those mistakes that set us apart.


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## Jaws

KennMacMoragh said:


> The worst one I ever framed on top of was about 5" out of square as I recall. It showed when I was sheathing the roof, each sheet of osb was way out of square to the rafters. Surprisingly, everything still worked out. I think the reason your friend said 2" is because he couldn't get it right. It's funny people who are anal about 1/8" tolerances change their mind to 3/4" or higher whenever they make a mistake and realize how much work it will be to get it within that close tolerance.
> 
> I can't tell you where you should draw the line, depends on a lot of different factors. If I was a concrete sub I would be concerned about 3/4" out of square, your superintendent will likely find out about it, and it will probably be the last job he hires you on. If i was doing all the work myself, I might go with 3/4" tolerance if I thought I could deal with it. Usually when I'm doing all the work myself I give myself more slack because I know I can deal with it later. But if it's for another builder or sub they don't know what kind of mistakes you made so it's more likely to cause problems, and your reputation is on the line.


 Very true. Redoing chit sucks. When you are the one dealing with it, it is a lot easier to say "close enough" :laughing:


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## CJKarl

Start perfectly square. The whole job will go easier. 
On this job the crete guy was not square. I spent extra time getting my work right.it's really the only way to do it.


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## dom-mas

That pour is a little different. Out of square in 16" is silly. 100' is a lot different.


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## Tinstaafl

dom-mas said:


> That pour is a little different. Out of square in 16" is silly. 100' is a lot different.


Why should it be? The mathematical relationship is the same, whether it's an inch or a mile. Particularly with today's technology, there's no excuse for not being dead on.

I detest having to compensate for someone else's sloppy work.


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## dom-mas

the mathematical relationship is absolutely not the same. if you continue 1/32" over 2', a tolerance that I doubt many here would question, after 100' that very minor difference would be 50/32", quite a lot. 

Foundations are built using used materials that have been mildly cleaned, they sit on barely finished footings and then get poured 8' high which puts a very reasonable amount of hydrostatic pressure on the forms. They bow, they have knobs, rough areas etc... They are not finished work. Later in the job it will get parged which will not be arrow straight or smooth either.

In the same way that framing and drywall don't need to be held to the same standards as crown moulding or hardwood flooring, foundations don't need to be as perfect as framing. When i carve stone my margin of error is +/- 1/2 mm (1/50th")but when i do rubble work I don't mind being off an 1/8" the difference between the 2 degrees is huge.

A framer shouldn't use the foundation as his guide in the same way I don't use the framing as the guide for my masonry. I need to use the framing on occasion but if I always followed the framing my work would look weird, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying not to try to achieve the best results you can but to say that 1/8" over 100' is the standard is silly (in my opinion) As someone else said. I have most definitely not followed any of your guys work because I have yet to see that sort of perfection anywhere, not in residential, commercial or civil.


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## Tinstaafl

dom-mas said:


> the mathematical relationship is absolutely not the same. if you continue 1/32" over 2', a tolerance that I doubt many here would question, after 100' that very minor difference would be 50/32", quite a lot.


You're focusing on the math that suits your point. I'm talking about the Pythagorean theorem, which as far as any one has been able to determine, is accurate at _any_ scale.

I do understand your point regarding imperfect materials, but all too often that's used as an excuse for sloppy layout/workmanship. There's still little excuse for the start and end points not being precise, and any variation of the path between should be relatively minimal.

As for using the foundation as a guide, I agree. However, if you give me a foundation that's off by an inch or three, do you expect me to build straight and square on top of that, and then take the blame for it looking like crap? :no:


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## Dirtywhiteboy

Mathematical there is no way to ever get square:no: Only to some finite degree but math is infinite. The reason for this is we live in a imperfect world:blink: You would have to talk to somebody with a PHD in math to really understand this:blink:
So in building we just call it good enough and carry on:blink:


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## griz

Sounds like the* looks good from my living room theory*...:whistling


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## Jaws

griz said:


> Sounds like the* looks good from my living room theory*...:whistling


Looks good from my house :thumbsup:


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## Dirtywhiteboy

Looks great from out here:thumbup:


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## JesseCocozza

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Looks great from out here:thumbup:


A Little caulk & a little paint...


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## dom-mas

Tinstaafl said:


> You're focusing on the math that suits your point. I'm talking about the Pythagorean theorem, which as far as any one has been able to determine, is accurate at _any_ scale.


I'm really not. If you use a a 3 4 5 or a cross corner over 100' to determine square, the sag of the tape will account for way more than 1/8" discrepancy. 

I just went and laid some block at a house today to raise a brick ledge up. On a 4' inside corner the framed (square) wall was inside the ICF by 3/8" at one corner and over hung the ICF by the same amount on the other corner. Not great but once the stone is on no one will know the difference. So the foundation was out of square by 3/4" over 4'. No one would ever be asked to tear that ICF down and the guys who did the ICF would have every expectation of getting paid. The framers (very good framers in my opinion) didn't complain about it at all, they just carried on and did their work knowing that it didn't effect the final outcome in any serious way.

I wish I still new how to do the math to figure it out but on a house 60' by 40' with a cross corner in one direction being off the other direction by 3/4" (not measured out by 3/4" but a real 3/4") I bet the angle is off by less than 1/2 a degree. On a small room the amount of drywall mud in the corners would effect the room more than that


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## Diamond D.

dom-mas said:


> ... didn't complain about it at all, they just carried on and did their work knowing that it didn't effect the final outcome in any serious way.


Of course not, that's how it has always been, right up to the last person to touch it.
Excavator to mason to framer to rocker and roofer to tiler and paper hanger and on and on and on.

Doesn't mean we have to like or accept it...

Maybe someday, if everyone raised or is it lowered, lessened, their accepted tolerances, we wouldn't have to.

Then everything would be squared away and everybody would be happy. :thumbup:

D.


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## Tinstaafl

I do get your point. OTOH, I once had to deal with a 3' section of wall nearly 3" off square, and not in line with the the rest of the wall on the other side of the doorway. 

The same crew laid a 30' block wall running uphill about 4"--and the opposite wall ran DOWNhill by the same amount. We made 'em fix that.



dom-mas said:


> I'm really not. If you use a a 3 4 5 or a cross corner over 100' to determine square, the sag of the tape will account for way more than 1/8" discrepancy.


Welcome to the twenty-first century. Lasers don't sag. :thumbsup:


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## Jaws

You pull hard on a steel tape it aint sagging much.


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## jomama

Personally, I shoot for near perfection on every foundation. For those that believe in perfection, I have to tell you, sorry, the meaning of the work really is subjective, and as a human, you will never achieve it. I think what most of the non-masonry folks here tend to overlook, or mis-understand, is the challenges in attempting to achieve "perfection" in a far from perfect environment. Try pouring 100K pounds of wet concrete in sand and see if your forms move. Try setting wall forms with 250K pounds of plastic concrete, vibrate the crap out of them, and then see how "perfect" you feel about it. Or try relying on sloppy or soft soil to brace your pour off of, with a limited window of time to alter any errors before the concrete sets, and let us all know how that works out.

I'm sure most will never comprehend the complications of installing the majority of the mass of most structures while dealing with an infinite number of challenges provided by the Earth. It's not like we can simply take the Sawzall out and fix a simple error in 3 minutes, or we're working with 2# studs. Things are a bit more complicated than that, and if you haven't been responsible for a number of foundations, you'll likely never understand.

That being said, I shoot for 1/4" or less out of square or length. If the carpenter can't figure it out from there, he likely needs to find a new job that's he/she's proficient at....................:whistling


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## dom-mas

Tinstaafl said:


> I do get your point. OTOH, I once had to deal with a 3' section of wall nearly 3" off square, and not in line with the the rest of the wall on the other side of the doorway.
> 
> The same crew laid a 30' block wall running uphill about 4"--and the opposite wall ran DOWNhill by the same amount. We made 'em fix that.


There is absolutely a line that can't be crossed and it's obvious from our discussion that each has their own line. I would not allow anything like that on any job I've ever run. Out of square by more a little more than 1/2" on a typical residential build I will live with if it means that the forms or block doesn't have to come down. Like I said Yesterday I saw a 4' foundation wall out of square by 3/4", in a few months it will be like it never happened.

I also agree with Jomama, the framers (at least the quality ones) will have a tighter tolerance than the foundation guys (I'm not really a foundation guy but I worked doing concrete forming in a civil environment for 6 mos and have done a dozen or so block foundations) and the finish carpenters will have a tighter tolerance again, but I bet if you put most of those same framers or finish carpenters in the wet mud at the bottom of a hole, cutting some form boards that are covered in old cement and nail holes with chunks missing, their tolerances may get a bit bigger. Give them some back fill and reasonably flat ground and their tolerances will tighten back up.

And i think I'm done with this topic. I'm just reiterating my same points, but then again i do like a good discussion


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## Tscarborough

You shouldn't demand perfection, but you should expect it.


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## NYCB

This thread blew up, must have touched a nerve in here.

I haven't checked it trying to get his place wrapped up before the baby falls out of my wife.

We pulled the tapes today at the top of the wall, one corner was out 3/16, not to shabby for all the stupid leads we had to put up, hopefully the next one only has 4 corners.


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