# illegals roofing vs. other trades



## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Roofers complain exceptionally often about illegals lowering standards etc...

Seriously I don't want this to be a thread about illegals being scurges or how we should kill all illegals. What I want to know is how almost any thread int he roofing industry can be turned into an "illegals suck" thread but you almost never hear it in any other trade.

Am I just oblivious to the other trades or do immigrants like to roof?


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## shopdust (Apr 9, 2005)

It shows up at "Wood Web" in the trim - finish - installation forum real regular. Usually same issues, marginal workmanship, pooping on the job, driving wages down etc.
Most other sites, the voice of political correctness shout down and insult anyone who would ever think of mentioning it.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

There are plenty of illegals working in my area, but not so many in construction trades. There is a language barrier that many small contractors (which is most of them) are unable to overcome. I think I can say with some surity that if a contractor could learn spanish, romanian, or whatever they'd have more crews of illegals working. I'm not so sure that the fact that they are illegals is what drives down the quality. Some of the finest craftsmen throughout history have been from outside of this country (illegal or otherwise). It may come down to an inability to properly communicate and thereby supervise said illegals.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

I have a lot to say about this but will refrain. But will say illegal labor hurts us all. Hire them and you deserve any fines that banko your buisness.


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

as a legal american i will be more than happy to exercise my right to free speech on this thread. I say round them all up and send them back to MEXICO. Why would a employer want to pay a decent wage when he can pay a illegal immigrant wage. I'M ALL FOR THOSE PRIVATE CITIZENS PROTECTING OUR BOARDERS. :Thumbs: :Thumbs: :Thumbs:


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Grumpy said:


> Am I just oblivious to the other trades or do immigrants like to roof?


It's not just roofing. I see plenty of concrete workers, landscapers, masons, framers, pipelayers, etc.

Part of what makes the 'illegal' issue complicated is this - when a man comes in to apply for a job and has, by all appearances, a valid S/S card and driver's license, how do you know otherwise if he's 'illegal'. And if the govt. won't take care of the problem, am I supposed to be a defacto INS agent?

There are many factors contributing to the 'illegal' labor problem. Perhaps the chief of which is that the trades don't pay enough to attract many people who will habitually do quality work.


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## housedocs (Jan 10, 2005)

I totally agree with 747, I think they have got to find a way to shut down the flow of illegals, it's not just the roofing trade Grumpy, down my way I never seen it on the roofing, but heavy in the drywall & paint trades. There's a huge pipeline and storage facility just outside the little town where I live. Last yr the entire place got painted inside & out of the tanks, all the exposed piping & bldgs. Contractor was from Tx and I think out of the whole crew there were maybe 4-5 who spoke English at all, these guys were all driving brand new com[any trucks and I think making pretty good wages and did a good job from waht I can tell from the road. But it still seriously irked me that they were most likely here illegally and even if they were legal immigrants, I still think the being able to read, speak, & write English should be a requirement.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

> There are many factors contributing to the 'illegal' labor problem. Perhaps the chief of which is that the trades don't pay enough to attract many people who will habitually do quality work.


Touché


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Illegals like to roof and they certainly like to landscape.


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

How about every week when you get your paycheck and see all the deductions do you think its ok for the illegals to be in our country making money and not getting anything deducted out of there check. But there costing hospitals multimillions in health care and schools also. Its not rite and then they insult us by not learning english and expect us to learn spanish. COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

747 said:


> How about every week when you get your paycheck and see all the deductions do you think its ok for the illegals to be in our country making money and not getting anything deducted out of there check. But there costing hospitals multimillions in health care and schools also.


I have never seen a contracting firm write payroll checks without withholdings. I have never seen a contracting company hire someone who couldn't produce a S/S card and valid photo ID.
I think the far more prevalent scenario is 'illegals' who are subject to payroll withholdings, by virtue of a fake S/S number, who will never, ever, collect a penny of S/S benefits. I dare say we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weekly withholdings.



747 said:


> Its not rite and then they insult us by not learning english and expect us to learn spanish.


If I were king the only money spent on 'illegals' would be that needed to send their sorry asses back where they came from. No health care, no education, no housing. Legal immigration has issues of it's own that also need attention. Why are we welcoming unskilled, uneducated, unemployed immigrants?! Why the hell do we need foreign welfare candidates when we already have way too many native born 'ner-do-wells? I say if you want to immigrate here you need to show prior intent and ability to contribute something. And if you haven't become an English speaking U.S. citizen in x amount of years then go back to where you came from.

If most people think this way, then why aren't we requiring our elected officials to "get 'er done"?


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

*pipeguy*

:Thumbs: :Thumbs: :Thumbs: RITE ON!!!!!!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

747 said:


> How about every week when you get your paycheck and see all the deductions do you think its ok for the illegals to be in our country making money and not getting anything deducted out of there check.


That part doesn't really bother me. 

The part that REALLY bothers me is the uneven playing business field it creates with a legitimate person doing eveything by the book is at a disadvantage against somebody else bending all the rules, paying illegals sub standard wages and being able to quote jobs for less. 

That totally blows in my book. It's a nice gimick for those who cross the line to take advantage of it. Nice advantages - nobody can touch your estimates because your overhead is lower than anybody elses, no red tape to deal with, and you can treat your help like crap since they have more to lose then you do and either have to take it or slink back across the border.

That whole scenario feeds upon the industry and destroys local markets making it harder and harder for legitimate contractors to get liveable wages for their employees, until you have to work for no profits or join the skanks with the illegals.


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## shopdust (Apr 9, 2005)

For the record, I and possibley about 90% of the people who follow this forum would have the gumption to get out the the Third World and better themselves.
With that being said, I watched as California devert more of it's budget from "goodies" like low cost universities and colleges, to welfare and prisons and free medical care.
Neither Political party will face the problem and both have elements that benefit from this.


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## Trey (Apr 17, 2005)

I have quite a few hispanics I work with as far and as I know they are legal. Most speak great english especially compared to some ********. I'm also very capable in spanish as well. I really don't look at race, language, or anything. If they are good, clean, responsible, professional painters, and they have a tax payer id number, I'll work them. I pay more than alot of my competitors, only because I hate employee turnover. I have not had anyone quite in over a year or fired anyone for about the smae time. I'm pretty proud of that. I do see your point though the influx has cost me all my pricing power in new construction and there are alot of antiimmigrant people around. I'm pretty color blind and will hire the best people for the job, but some of my clients or potential clients aren't.


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## TimWieneke (Nov 1, 2004)

It's an issue in every trade. Even "trim carpentry" now.

We're doing our best to do our part. We're hiring underpaid legal minority workers away from their employers with better pay and benefits, thus attracting their friends to becoming legal, thus forcing their exploitative employers to up wages consisitent with skill level and level the playing field when it comes to bidding.

You do your part - stay high quality. The market will follow.

Tim


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

the real issue here is that lots contractors are willing to employ these workers for purpose of linieng their own pocket with w.c.premiums and employment taxes the rest of us thought we had to pay. i know of at least one homeowner being sued by employee of uninsured roofing contractor.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

bergenbldr said:


> I know of at least one homeowner being sued by employee of uninsured roofing contractor.


 Exactly why a big part of my sales presentation is to show the customer my certificate of insurance tell them why I have it and what it does and what will happen if they hire someone without it.


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## Huck Finn (May 6, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> That part doesn't really bother me.
> 
> The part that REALLY bothers me is the uneven playing business field it creates with a legitimate person doing eveything by the book is at a disadvantage against somebody else bending all the rules...it's a nice gimick for those who cross the line to take advantage of it. Nice advantages - nobody can touch your estimates because your overhead is lower than anybody elses, no red tape to deal with,


The issue of illegals aside, I run into this with "cash under the table" contractors who have a workers comp policy on one guy, the rest are cash, and if someone gets hurt they're on their own, or they call the ins. with the line "I just hired this guy this morning, haven't had time to fill out the paperwork, and wouldn't you know he hurt himself the first day!" Then there are the "2nd job" contractors, in my area its usually firemen, who have another income and bid low because its just side job money for them. I"m talking licensed contractors taking on some sizeable jobs. The work climate is changing here, and it seems to be getting better, but its been frustrating the past several years dealing with it.


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## A+Carpenter (Apr 19, 2005)

All I have to say to you is this. Quit hireing them chilis and put them out of work . We all use them and we know it's the truth . It's hard to find someone willing to work these days thats not hooked on dope or has issues getting out of bed. As far as them driving down the prices . I made 5.50 a sqft for framing and on up on single and higher than that on customs . We need to drive this filth thats driving down our prices and they live in the houses that they frame here in texas as they are building them for 1.75 and 2.00 a SQFT . All my work is remodel know due to this . I dont build new homes unless its direct with the homeowner . If i cant find help I will frame the house myself and get some highschool kid to help me . 

Quote of the day . Swim back to mexico you chili peppers. Gods sons name was Jesus 
NOT HAY-SUSE


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## PPro (Jan 26, 2005)

Just to add some more info:

Around here (Southern MI) the illegals mainly stick to the less 'skilled' trades. (Drywall, masonry, landscaping, etc) Don't take that the wrong way, I know there are plenty of people who can do amazing things with drywall, masonry and landscaping. In the realm of cookie cutter houses, these are the easiest trades though. I'm a trim carpenter, and I've yet to run into an illegal trim carpenter. There's also very few framers who aren't American citizens. They mostly do drywall here, which is generally a cheap trade anyway. Illegals aren't affecting my wages because there just simply isnt any of them in my trade. It may be different around the country, thats just the scene here.


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## Painter.Josh (May 5, 2004)

Peace all

Im in mid-Michigan here.
I'm just glad they don't know how to paint. 
They just landscape here.

Peace


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Josh, they'll get around to you. They have pretty much overtaken the painting industry here.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

AdamMeider said:


> All I have to say is Quit hireing them chilis and put them out of work . We all use them and we know it's the truth . It's hard to find someone willing to work these days thats not hooked on dope or has issues getting out of bed.


We who? I don't hire anyone that can't produce 'papers' and who doesn't speak the language (that's English for all you PC types). It's not safe to work with someone who can't communicate.
As to it being hard to find someone willing to work these days, that's just part of the game now. You don't just find good people because they're usually not out looking around. You have to either attract them or fashion them out of raw material - and that takes some doing.

The illegals will keep coming as long as Americans keep electing people who are eager for the votes that can be had through the supportr of the aliens and are willing to confiscate the wealth of some, in the form of taxes, and give it to aliens in the form of entitlements. The whole trhing makes me friggin' sick.


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## builderr (Nov 16, 2003)

I recently read an article in a New Hampshire newspaper
where illegal aliens arrested for driving without a license, or 
most any law violation, being Illegal meant automatic 
arrest and return to your homeland....something about
security concerns from a local police perspective...
Thru the grapevine, I heard of 20-30 drywall hanging 
openings and 40-50 landscaping jobs up for grabs, just in this
one small city.
David


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm with you, Rich. I'm really getting fed up with the having to be bi-lingual crap. Having grown up down here, I suppose that I might pass for being bi-lingual but I don't claim to be.
When I go to South or Central America, I try to respect them by speaking their language. I would appreciate the same courtesy here.


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## TimWieneke (Nov 1, 2004)

I just had a guy interview with me yesterday for a job as an electrician. Gave me his name, address, social security number and everything - then checks on the application that he can not legally work in the U.S. Long story short, he tells me in the interview that he has illegal ID, a fake SS# and is here illegally. I told him I couldn't help him and left it at that.

It's no longer the days of non-docs taking the jobs "no one else wants". I meet at least 10 legal citizen electricians out of work each week who now have to compete for them with non-docs.

Tim

P.S. Don't worry about the follow-up I'll do on this particular guy. A buddy of mine got me involved in the Coast Guard Auxilliary and though I am a volunter and very inactive member, technically I still am part of the Department of Homeland Security and know needs to be done.


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

I had big arguement with my brother about our system v/s the european system. He tells me that the only way europeans support there socialized state system is by importing low wage guest workers.I said so do we,we just call them illegal aliens,at least thier being honest about their imigration policys,not turning a blind eye to the law as does our goverment. He also tried to sell me that global economy cr-p.The only americans who benifit from your job being shipped to india or a work visa for a forgiener to come here and take take your job are the super weathy who make thier money from investments ,not from working for a wage. Unfortunaty every other person with a 401k ect. has bought into this global cr-p. Just show how bad this problem has gotten, the japanense company my wife worked at for 15 years,started bringing japanese workers over here on tourist visas to take the jobs of the 2000+ americans they just laid off.


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## shopdust (Apr 9, 2005)

It's not just the illegals. My brother in law had to train the Indian H-b(?) visa worker who had been brought in to replace him at 40% less (more if you include the free O.T. those guys will do)
In return, he go two extra weeks of severence pay and a glowing recommendation. I b*tched to my congresscritter and got back pure PC gibberish from Congressman WU (D) OR, Dist 6.


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

Like i said enforcement is not existant ,so ther'e not even waiting to get them working visas,was going to file complaint with labor dept. but it would just be a waste of time. btw i have a buy american policy as far as vehicles and tools are concerned.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

shopdust said:


> My brother in law had to train the worker who had been brought in to replace him


"Had" to?


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Bergen, My daughter has been trying to get a work visa in Austria. She graduated from Wellesley with honors and is working towards her Masters at the University of Vienna. They have had her jumping through hoops for months. She even came back here and went to bartending school (2 wks.) so that she could show evidence of being skilled in a 'trade'.
This country deports skilled professionals and allows in everybody else. I just don't get it.


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

Just for a little history here, our current illegal alien problem started as a perfectly legal agricultural guest worker program during wwII. Seems like only way for a skilled worker to get a work visa in most european countrys is to marry one of thier citizens,being a permanant resident pretty much entitles you to all the benifits of a citizen.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

The only time I have ever been forced to work cheaper is in trash tract home plats. But I have gotten out of the lower end tract stuff. Them cheap half skilled hacks can have'em. I don't want them and I would play poker instead of work for dirt cheap. I would probably make more money too. LOL

Yeah when I started they only worked on condos. Now since the condo market crashed a few years back they moved on. Now taking on a large part of the work load from the dirt work to the finish. 
I once told my buddy (pipe layer) a few years ago not to train them he laughed.Now they out number the Americans. It all starts by training them in turn take half of what you taught them and train they buddies who only remeber half of what the were taught. Now you have the making of a great hack.


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## saucedo80 (Mar 21, 2005)

Well, this is what i have to say about this thread:

I am mexican american and have worked side by side with illeagals from mexico, i must admit that they are truly skilled craftsmen and not to mention hard workers. I have yet to see an american citizen who is not of Mexican descent work as hard as a Mexicano. THEY ARE NOT FILTH, OR CHILIS AS ONE PERSON WROTE, simply hard working people that want to get an honest day's pay for an honest day's work. And you know what don't complain, this country benefits from them. All illeagals working that are on payroll get taxes deducted just like if they were american citizens, but you know what, they can't claim any tax refunds so where does all that money go to? gee i wonder

Put your self in their shoes, and you know what, you would do the same thing. If not for yourself but for your family.

Hunger knows no borders, neither does poverty and if the grass is greener on the other side, you can damn well bet you will do whatever you can to get to that side.


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## shopdust (Apr 9, 2005)

You are correct and I would be the first to do what I had too. The other side of the coin, several months ago I bought two loads of firewood from a "laid off" cement finisher. Now we are finally starting to get going here, so why is this guy humping firewood and tearing up his truck for less than $80.00 a day? 
I frankly don't have answer, except the "sending nations" need to clean up their acts.

(PS I check out everyone who comes on my property and his hands were appropiately "lime calaced")


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

What I want to know is why does it take twice as many foreigners to build something? Because they work for half scale of a skilled labor and all share the same apartment.

Like today I seen about ten of them forming up some walls on a 1500 sq ft crawler. Rediculous.
If I worked that close to that many people I would at least have punched two people for tripping over me.

Lead, Follow, or get the ******************** out of my way.


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

saucedo80 said:


> Well, this is what i have to say about this thread:
> 
> I am mexican american and have worked side by side with illeagals from mexico, i must admit that they are truly skilled craftsmen and not to mention hard workers. I have yet to see an american citizen who is not of Mexican descent work as hard as a Mexicano. THEY ARE NOT FILTH, OR CHILIS AS ONE PERSON WROTE, simply hard working people that want to get an honest day's pay for an honest day's work. And you know what don't complain, this country benefits from them. All illeagals working that are on payroll get taxes deducted just like if they were american citizens, but you know what, they can't claim any tax refunds so where does all that money go to? gee i wonder
> 
> ...


 Saucedo80, you assume that most illegal workers here are paying payroll taxes ,but there is realy no way to know that. Also my problem is with employers who take advantage of illegals by not paying o.t. ,paying substandard wages ,and disregarding osha saftey regs. etc. etc..Until this country decides to reform its policys regarding imigration and alien workers this situation will continue.Along with this there needs to be political,and economic reforms on the other side of the border,ever wonder why were not talking about hordes of canadians crossing over the border to take our jobs.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

saucedo80 said:


> Hunger knows no borders, neither does poverty and if the grass is greener on the other side, you can damn well bet you will do whatever you can to get to that side.


Hold up homes. When my family goes hungry because they work for cheap. I am snitching to INS and laughing at them when they get picked up. They have no right being here illegally. But have all the rights even dual citizenship if they want to go back to Mexico after swearing in and excepting US citizenship. Hell even you could go back to Mexico with no questions asked.

So are you willing to go back to your Motherland?


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

Every country should have the right to control its borders and imigration.Why should the united states be any different. btw i was checking out australian imigration web site ,if you have a skill or a business that they need they will pay you to move there,Guess i just gave away plan b.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Saucedo80,

You made a lot of good strong points, - - then you went and ruined it by wanting 'censorship', - - you stood up for yourself tall and proud, - - I'm sure your points are well taken by all who have an open mind, - - but the reality is that there are differing opinions out there, - - and to censor rather than debate is simply just to both 'closet' and 'compound' the problem.

Do realize if this thread was censored earlier, - - you wouldn't have gotten in a lot of those good points I'm talking about.

Congratulations on being able to stay civil.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

saucedo80 said:


> I signed up with contractortalk.com to network with people about my trade, and get iformation about building a successful buisness


It's a great place for that. I hope you stick around and gleen all the benefit you can. I'll kick in whatever I can whenever there's a chance.



saucedo80 said:


> Threads like these should not even be allowed.


As near as I can tell they usually stay pretty much in the "General Discussion" forum. I think that's appropriate. The detrimental effect that ILLEGAL labor competition has on wages (and the economy in general in my opinion) is definitetly an important business topic.



saucedo80 said:


> Your comments prove to me that you are a stereotypical, and biased individual, let alone rascist. It is people like you that give all other contractors a bad name.


It's too bad you think that. I'm optimistic that if you lived next door to me you'd think otherwise.



saucedo80 said:


> What i don't like, is that when something goes wrong in this country the scapegoats are always immigrants.


Really? I've lived here since 1961 and haven't noticed that. Were immigrants scapegoated for Kennedy's assasination (Jack or Bobby)? How about Viet Nam? Martin Luther King's assasination? Watergate? Appollo 13? Mideast oil embargo? Three mile island? Iran hostages? Exxon Valdez? Savings and loan debacle? Challenger disaster? Decline of the black nuclear family? Throw me a bone here would you? (OK, OK...I admit that immigrants were scapegoated for the whole 9-11 thing. But come on, we don't need to have the amount of evidence neccesary to convict Michael Jackson of child molestation to tell us that they actually were responsible for that, now do we?)



saucedo80 said:


> Unlike you pipe guy, i have strong knowledge of where my family came from


Unlike you Sauce, I try not to form conclusions about things I know absolutely nothing about. Your comment is only notable as an example of a conclusion that was formed in an absolute vacumn of relevant information.



saucedo80 said:


> believe it or not pipe guy, immigration issues are nothing new to this country. This country was made up by immigrants, and is still made up of people of different ethnic backrounds to this day.


The old "Believe it or not [insert well settled fact here]" tactic huh? OK, how's this - believe it or not Sauce, there are non-Mexican-American racists too. How's that for a restatement of obvious facts.



saucedo80 said:


> If you are not full blooded Native American, chances are your people came from another country


Really??!!! Hmmm? Where did the "full blooded" folks come from?



saucedo80 said:


> just like The many people coming into this country illegally.


Wrong. You see, when people migrated here in antiquity from the other side of the Pacific Ocean or Bering Sea they didn't have to comply with the duly established laws of a sovereign nation. The folks that flood across the U.S.'s borders (the southern border being particularly porous) today are obliged to do so.



saucedo80 said:


> The only difference between your people and mine, is that probably when your family came to the U.S, Immigration wasn't as strict as it is today And therefore where not titled as ILLEAGAL


I don't know how or when your people got here - I hope it was legally. As for my people, it's by way of Ellis Island, NY, Baltimore, MD, Seattle, WA and various other ports of entry. And guess what -they all signed in when they got here. Back then, not only did the government enforce the immigration laws but people were actually inclined to obey them (or at least ashamed to admit they didn't). 



saucedo80 said:


> As to illegals pissing on U.S soil, and all your other rascist remarks, DON'T SAY THINGS OF THAT SORT UNLESS YOU HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN IT FOR YOURSELF,OR CAN BACK IT UP WITH FACTS. EVERYTHING THAT I STATED IN MY MESSAGE, I CAN BACK UP SINCE I HAVE EXPERIENCED IT FIRST HAND.


Nothing racist there, I just plain don't like criminals - period. And as far as the first hand experience goes, I see (at least once a week) some person that I think is fair to describe as an 'illegal' piss in broad daylight on the sidewalk of a public street or in a parking lot of a fast food reataurant or apartment complex. Last week I personally watched two older guys approach a young, non-English speaking central american guy and chastise him for pissing in plain view of their wives as they walked out of a restaurant to their cars. The young guy became beligerent and cursed at the older men as he walked off. Was the young guy illegal? I admit I don't know for sure. Given the demographics of that particular neighborhood I think it fair to guess that there was a 95% chance that he was. In my opinion the inclination of the local young, male, "illegal" cenral-american population to urinate in public is at best indicative of their disregard for the modesty of others and at worst an example of their disdain for the 'native' community at-large. 



saucedo80 said:


> you have to roll with the punches.


"...learn to play all of your hunches, make the best of whatever comes your way. Forget that blind ambition, and learn to trust your intuition, plowin' straight ahead come what may." -Jimmy Buffett

No mas.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

saucedo80 said:


> ...my roots are still strongly tied with the Mexican customs since my parents immigrated from Mexico. I speak the language, eat the food, and live amongst Mexicans...Your comments prove to me that you are a biased individual, let alone rascist.


Sorry - these comments caught my eye as I was re-reading what you wrote (for the sixth time) to make absolutely sure I didn't speak out of line.

Do I understand correctly that, in your mind, I am a racsist because: 
I embrace the customs of the country under whose laws I'm afforded liberty and opportunity, rather than clinging to the customs of a country under whose laws liberty is choked, opportunity is scarce and people risk death to flee?
I speak the language of the country I live in, rather than that of my ancestors and the citizens of a foreign nation?
I eat without regard to the national origin of the cuisine?
I live, work and play amongst families of many races, colors and creeds rather than living in a culturally segregated community?

If you haven't noticed by now, your own self-stated separatist lifestylye has certain 'racsist' undertones that might merit some thought on your part.

Buenas Noches


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

George Z said:


> I agree 100% with your point of view. Also let's stick to contracting.
> At times women contractors are ridiculed and immigrants are the source
> of all evil.
> Spamming should not be the only thing not allowed here.



Ridiculed BECAUSE they were a woman??, - - or ridiculed AND they were a woman??

Don't remember anyone getting picked on BECAUSE of their GENDER.

And, - - do realize that any reply you give, - - we ALL KNOW you're just RIDICULING me because you know I'm a WHITE CHRISTIAN MALE, - - there can be no other LOGICAL reason!!

SHEESH!!


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

PipeGuy said:


> Do I understand correctly that, in your mind, I am a racsist because: ..........................


No, not those things. It's how you express yourself about them. 

I will say, I do agree with most of what Sauce is saying, but also much of what you are saying as well. 
Problem is, after this I have a MUCH dimmer view of you as a person due to your demeanor in this thread. Although your last two posts were a bit more civil.


I have some very strong opinions on this topic as well but I am keeping out so as not to string this thing along.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Stolen from another BB.

Subject: A Frightening Analysis 


We all know ******************** Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration-overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor named Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal - was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream. 

Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'" 

"Here is how they do it," Lamm said: First to destroy America, "Turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. "The historical scholar Seymour Lipset put it this way: "The histories of bilingual and bicultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy.' Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans." 

Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent multiculturalism and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds. 

Third, "We could make the United States an ' Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: The apparent success of our own multi-ethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.'" 

Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America reinforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities." 

"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school." 

"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology'. I would get all minorities to think their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population." 

"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshiped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic games. A common enemy Persia threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to over come two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unum" -- From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the "Pluribus" instead of the "Unum," we can balkanize America as surely as Kosovo." 

"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits ~ make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of diversity.' I would find a word similar to heretic in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like racist or xenophobe halt discussion and debate." "Having made America a bilingual/ bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology', I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them." 

In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia. His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book." 

There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Every discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate diversity. 

American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America - take note of California and other states - to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace", "Freedom is slavery", and "Ignorance is strength". 

Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially "The American Dream". 

People will forget what you said... 

People will forget what you did... 

But people will never forget how you made them feel...

What do you think???


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Speedy Petey said:


> after this I have a MUCH dimmer view of you as a person due to your demeanor in this thread.


Ouch. Sorry to hear it. I guess my problem is that I have a tough time mustering more than superficial civility for those who encourage, or otherwise facilitate, the criminal activity that is ILLEGAL immigration. Without sugar coating, my sentiments are a sour pill to swallow.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

> I guess my problem is that I have a tough time mustering more than superficial civility...


Hey, I am known to be just as blunt at times. I was just very surprised at some of what you said. 
And I assure you, my civility is not nearly superficial. If I don't want to be civil, I don't.


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## ConcreteGuy (Jun 10, 2005)

My apologies Tom. I was so hacked about dude's stepson I failed to see the humor. You were right, it was actually funny. Hope you accept...*GCMan reaches to shake Tom's hand* Sorry man, I was outta line.

And to continue the humorous theme, Saucedo80, don't forget that even Native Americans are immigrants here too, from Asia, lol. Your point about all of us is correct. We all get around. And being territorial is natural. For example, I don't want my neighbors trampling on my square. They either got, or need to get, their own square, and I don't care about their ethnicity. I would characterize the illegal immigration issue as cultural and territorial, neither of which are evil human tendencies. That is, I don't think PipeGuy is a racist, and I have an appreciation and understanding of his point of view. Technically, I believe he is correct. Illegal immigration is illegal, therefore unlawful, therefore wrong. I would encourage you (edit: all of you) to contact your political "leaders" about your views. I simply try to deal with the realities, and bear no grudge against Hispanics. I like most of them, which I can't say about Americans. 

As far as pissing on our soil, I do it all the time, but legally, lol! Some of Saucedo80's comments reflect my personal opinions that got put on PipeGuy. I am the one who says Mexicans are sloppy. It's the truth. I have a Mexican-American friend who is as frustrated as I am about this problem. But when competition forces Hispanics to learn the importance of quality, watch out! 

And, finally, until I can catch my breath and read the other posts, I have a problem with Saucedo80's comments about this thread. Saucedo80, this kind of post is the best kind! It has afforded you the opportunity to express your valuable opinions about an important issue. I appreciate this thread, and especially the people who posted. Yes, it is emotionally charged, but that is what we builders are all about. 

Passion. If you ain't got it, then why are you in it?

It's all personal to me.

:cheesygri


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

GCMan said:


> ...I like most of them, which I can't say about Americans.


LOL - so true. It's hard not to like guys that risk their lives to get somewhere, work hard when they arrive, and don't ***** about their 'misfortunes'. It's easy to have disdain for those who, despite abundant fortune, can't seem to muster up an ounce of contentedness.


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## ConcreteGuy (Jun 10, 2005)

Dood! I can tell you some stories, lol. Paying off Mexican cops, getting robbed, stacked like pancakes in a truck...you name it, mis amigos told me.

But what does that say about our country to you all?

Think about the political world around us. Europe is stuck in the mud of socialism, Russia seems eternally condemned to fail, Asia is still into communism, the Middle East is as hopeless as Russia, and Central and South America are emerging from the Stone Age. Oh, I almost forgot an entire continent, not counting Antarctica. Africa! Only God Almighty has the optimism to hope for Africa. 

Ahem, Mexico is among these. (Note that I am not talking about their people, but the lying, cheating, murdering scumbags in power.) Mexico is a nation dedicated to third world status. The common man in Mexico seems to take pride in ignorance, and suffer for it at the hands of the politicos who abuse him. I've noticed their culture to be of Male Machismo, which is a sign of insecurity and fear, pretending that all you have is your pride. Sad and self defeating, because by wearing this mask of machismo, you broadcast your impotence. 

I said I like most of these Hispanic trabajodores, but I got news for the bleeding of heart. They don't like you. They resent America, and they dislike us.

Again, I am glad they are here so long as taxpayers aren't hurt too badly. (Don't give an illegal a 1099, he won't pay, and that's wrong!) 

There has got to be a better way to provide jobs to other countries who rip off their people. I like more affordable products, but how about we enforce some accountability...including immigration law.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

GCMan said:


> My apologies Tom. I was so hacked about dude's stepson I failed to see the humor. You were right, it was actually funny. Hope you accept...*GCMan reaches to shake Tom's hand* Sorry man, I was outta line


No problem, GCMan, - - I kind of figured it was just the result of a 'quick-read' or something, - - apology accepted, but not really necessary, - - thanks.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I am just curious as to how many of you that are spouting off about Mexico have any actual, current experience with their situation? I just returned from there today, perhaps you can enlighten me as to their condition. I have another delivery Monday and should be there again by Thursday, fly back on Friday. I'll give Y'all an update.
The places that I go to are upscale, but you never have to travel very far to see subsistance living.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Since you seem to have the experience Steve, please feel free to enlighten me - you international man of mystery you


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## ConcreteGuy (Jun 10, 2005)

Hey, Teetorbilt, I have only the experience and priviledge of working with the rancheros from Mexico. The farm boys. And the ones from the Mexican cities, the chilangos, are typical useless city trash, just like here. 

The Mex-Americans I work with consider their old homeland to be third world. If you like, I can interview them and quote them for the record here. The prejudices of Hispanic-Americans against Mexicans is founded in a fundemental reality. But, your evidence is just as anecdotal as mine.

Without immigration reform, the phoniness of our Federal government will continue to cause friction with working people, and the people who keep them working. This is wrong. 

Social Security is not the deadly political issue. Illegal immigration from the Mexican border is the new "third rail" of cowardly politics. Scared of losing votes, nobody is doing what is right.


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## Longacre (Jun 7, 2005)

The real question is, if not the illegal Mexicans then who? I see these drywallers still going strong after my partner and I are packing it in after a 10 hour day. My kid whines when he has to spend 20 mins doing the dishes, my ass if I'd ever see him or any of his "too good for real work" friends putting in 10-12 hours a day hangin rock.

When I worked for the extrusion plant we participated in the W2 program, where welfare recipients were forced by the state to get jobs (oh my god the cruelty...they had to WORK). Most of them were inner-city black people and if 30 of them started on monday, only 15 were back on tuesday, in 3 weeks there would be 2 left. Apparently working for a living just couldnt compare to sitting on their butts tippin 40-ouncers and collecting free money from the taxpayers.

The government is kid gloves on illegal immigration for a reason Id suspect...they know damn well that a large portion of the American people are just too damn lazy to do the work. Kids today have no work ethic and expect everything to be handed to them until they get out of college and get their 65k a year computer jobs. Well, the world still needs grunts and since our people are too friggin lazy to do it we need to fill the gap somewhere.

My dad works for a bindery that is the largest printing corp in the world, during their busy season the company imports temp labor from eastern European countries like Poland and Hungary. Dad tells me that these guys work double shifts like 7 days a week then at the end of the busy season they go back home with big fat wallets and live like kings at home.

Is this as bad as our upcoming generation really is? We cant get decent hardworking Americans at all so we need to import them from overseas or look the other way when they sneak in. 

I say we start a new trend. Next time you are at the mall or wherever and see some young punk with his 5-sizes-too-big pants hanging down to his knees trying to looks hip.....plant a size 12 steel-toe firmly in his ass and tell him to get a real job! Thats what todays kids need, a good swift kick in the ass. 

Todays youth live in this fantasy world that they are going to be rich and succesful without doing any real work by virtue of birthright of something. These are the same kids that 2 years from now will be sporting a nametag and asking if you want that value-meal supersized.

Excuse me while I put my boots on...my stepson needs a life lesson


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Here's a thought - maybe, just maybe, if the U.S. government didn't permit illegal aliens to flood into the country then the 'grunt' jobs would pay enough to interest the 'lazy' people. Don't forget, if there were sufficient numbers of technically skilled illegals then the 'computer jobs' would be paying $25K a year too - just like labor.



Longacre said:


> We cant get decent hardworking Americans at all so we need to import them from overseas or look the other way when they sneak in.


Personally, I think that argument is much over used. People work as hard as the pay motivates them. If labor paid better, which it would if the labor pool wasn't diluted with illegal competition, then more would be inclined to take it up. Americans might be spoiled, but I don't think they're inherently lazy. 



Longacre said:


> I say we start a new trend. Next time you are at the mall or wherever and see some young punk with his 5-sizes-too-big pants hanging down to his knees trying to looks hip.....plant a size 12 steel-toe firmly in his ass and tell him to get a real job!


I'll take care of my kids, thank you, and trust that you'll do the same for yours. Don't get to thinking that you're at liberty to correct the dress code of someone else's kid unless you're really itchin' for some major trouble.



Longacre said:


> Todays youth live in this fantasy world that they are going to be rich and succesful without doing any real work


Todays's youth? I know plenty of today's adults that live there. You can thank the executives on Madison Avenue (and HGTV) for that.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

PipeGuy said:


> Here's a thought - maybe, just maybe, if the U.S. government didn't permit illegal aliens to flood into the country then the 'grunt' jobs would pay enough to interest the 'lazy' people. Don't forget, if there were sufficient numbers of technically skilled illegals then the 'computer jobs' would be paying $25K a year too - just like labor.


Actually there is Legal Indians from India doing tech jobs for like 30-40K which is killing Americans who made 80-100k a year. Just as alot of the legal mexicans only have five year work visa's. From what I hear most are bought and sold in mexico.


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## Longacre (Jun 7, 2005)

Pipe, you are this forum's "resident pain in the ass" arent you. Just a hunch.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Longacre said:


> Pipe, you are this forum's "resident pain in the ass"


When it comes to this topic I think you're right. I find interesting the topics that reveal passionate opinions. But, for the sake of those that are made uncomfortable by such opinions, I'll shut-up already about the people that are living in our country ILLEGALLY. This may be my last post on the subject so here's some closing questions for those of you who don't see the harm in 'looking the other way' about ILLEGAL immigration:

What would you think if congress passed a law that required you to 'sponsor', in the form of financial support, an ILLEGAL immigrant provided only that the ILLEGAL immigrant agreed to do your job, or that of one of your relatives, friends or neighbors, for less pay? What if sponsorship also required you to house the ILLEGAL immigrant in your attic, basement or garage? And what if the law didn't afford you anyway to protest when the ILLEGAL immigrant ate your food, took your prescription drugs, broke your furnishings or dumped his trash in your yard? Think it can't happen? I say think again. Cheers - :Thumbs:


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

What part of this don't you guys understand?


ProWallGuy said:


> Interesting thread, but ya'll need to make sure everyone plays
> nice in here. Try to agree to disagree, and share opinions.
> If it keeps progressing in this fashion and turns into a pissing match,
> I'll pull the plug.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Don't give me that you guys stuff. 
Go back and see when the personal attacks started. *hint: see post #98*


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Speedy Petey said:


> Don't give me that you guys stuff.
> Go back and see when the personal attacks started. *hint: see post #98*


 And you said nothing that was offensive. Tisk Tisk

Fact of the matter is, there is nobody that is American that will do construction jobs. We need immigrants to fill these jobs. Washington has been in a housing boom since 1996. I don't see too many Americans applying for construction jobs unless it is in the office. So don't go and slamming wally world for helping Americans in this f-d up economy.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

JustaFramer said:


> And you said nothing that was offensive.


NO. I don't think I did. Sorry if you took it personal that walmart is an evil place.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

Nothing personal, but this thread has run it course. No one benefits from watching it digress into a pissing match.


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