# flat roof wide open and building flooded



## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Im roofing this apartment complex with flat roofs.. its been HELL from the get go. but long story really long, we tear this roof off the other day with 3 days til rain. then the owner decides he wants to get bids. I did my part in explaining to him that that was a stupid decision and everything any roofer would do... I even went up there and tarped the roof for him. spent 8 hours tarping this roof. one on the deck and another one on top of that. cap nailed the first tarp in the the parapet under the coping and duct taped the seams everywhere and then duct taped the second tarp on to the coping cap. i duct taped all the penetrations then built tee pees around all them and duct taped the tee pee to the tarp on the deck so no water would run back in the holes. only 3 drains worked on that roof so i built up the roof in certain spots with insulation and guided the water off the roof. we spent 8 hours tarping a 40 sq roof with 12 ac units on it... so it rains and rains and rains... im scared ****less even tho its not my responsibility if it does flood.... i still didnt want the guys property to flood. 

he calls me and asks me if the iso was going to be ruined if it gets wet and i said yes but thats the least of your worries. you need to worry about getting the tenants evacuated because if that floods out and the ceiling collapses.. that whole building is going to come down.. he laughed and said he didnt think he needed to do all that like i was being dramatic.. mind you it was pouring rain for at least 3 hours at this point. and 12 more on the way. 

i dont care how awesome you tarp, a flat roof down to the decking with 3 2 inch scuppers aint got a chance against 15 hours of heavy rain. so at *2 pm* i called the office and asked if they had complaints on that building ... nope everything was fine. she had no clue the roof was off. so i ask her to go over and knock on some doors or go in that unit that was vacant on the 3rd floor... it stopped raining shortly after i hung up with her. i show up to the apartments 2 hours later and it looks like a crime scene. there were 20 ppl on the roof throwing tarps over everything, people out side, all the office wainches were there giving me the evil eye (cuz at this point they didnt know it was the owners decision to get bids)...

bla bla when i went the next day, i had one of the scandalous office managers walk me thru all the units and see all the damage. then i went up on the roof and took off the EMergency tarp peoples tarp, i noticed my tarp was cut off the back wall. then things start clicking... why would they cut my tarp knowing it was full of water.. it had 2 tarps on it then i put ply wood on top of the tarps so they wouldnt blow around in the wind and get ripped off the walls... then on top of the tarp i laid out the tpo... first on the edges, then towards the center which i had built up with iso to help the water run to the drains. all day long no complaints and i call the office and suddenly its a crime scene??? something aint right. then I see my tarp cut and it dawns on me all the damage to the building is on the back wall where the tarp was cut. at first i thought it was the tarp company.. then it all started coming to me.. the very next day the office wainches call me in a panic saying they needed a copy of my insurance policy. 

after mulling over this for days... im thinking my only hope at finding out if the tarp leaked before i told them about it, was the girl i asked to go check on the units. so i ask her and she said yes, when she got to the units they were leaking. but she was lying. i know this sounds retarded but I am a body language reader. like seriously. used to read body language when people were being interrogated by cops and fbi and stuff. its amazing how easily people give themselves away. ANYway.. ive never been able to shake the ****.. i cant just have a conversation with someone... in my head im analyzing the hell out of what they are saying and I can chop up a bs story in seconds. I try to not do it but when someone lies its like DING DING DING LIAR !! i hate it.

so im thinking what idiot tarp crew would cut my tarp? well about this time it dawns on me that the office mgrs and maintenance crew are runnin some racket out of there.. i dont know how they do it.. all i can think of is they create these dbas and invoice the owner for money, cash the checks and then pass the work to a maintenance guy or one of their friend contractors that runs game with them.. they keep getting their friends paid and keep splitting up the money there getting from the owner and the repairs never really get repaired. they just keep calling in complaints and the office mgrs keep sending in invoicing and he keeps paying. meanwhile ive been in every unit in the complex. every tenant knows me by name. knows what im doing there and tells me how they have had leaks over their beds for 3 months and the mgrs wont do anything about it.. one guy said he emptied 5 5 gallon buckets of water last time it rained. they tell me their roof has been caved in for FOUR YEARS. omg.

so let me back up...we did the smallest roof first cuz this chicks roof was leaking all over the place... roofs done, first rain, i go back to see if she had leaks still. nope no leaks... few weeks later see her again... she tells me she has a leak... so i go look.. it was coming from the window.. not my prob. i turn around and said OH MY GOD IS THAT YOUR SHEETROCK REPAIR? All bs aside, it was terrible. so i send the owner a text saying " fyi whoever you hired to do sheet rock has zero experience in that trade, its the worst ive ever seen" he says what unit.. then comes back and says the repairs have not been done in that unit. i asked her again.. when did they do this? she says 2 days ago. he did this and this one and left the other two like that. 

from that day on the office people were total bitches to us, snitching us out every thing we did or said, they stole all my tools off the roof, then asked if they could use our ladder and when we asked for it the next day they were like what ladder? and they go on our roof and mess **** up take pictures of it and send it to the owner. telling him we left the roof open for the rain so they had to call emergency tarp people again.. 4 times we have showed up to work and they wouldnt let us get on the roof, kicked us off the property and then told the owner we no showed.. 

anyway let me close this story on up cuz i can talk all day about this crap.. This cut tarp thing is buggin me, the office chick is lying, it doesnt make sense for the emergency tarp people to cut my tarp... so what else will put the story together? the tenants... but 9 of the 12 moved out or were evacuated... DAMN! so i saw one guy go in his apartment upstairs the other night at 4 am... we were still drying in the roof.. but when he got there i told my crew lets leave because we cant be banging around at 4 am plus we were exhausted. me and 2 guys laid 36 squares by ourselves from 12-4 am. 3 stories no sky trac, 60 mil tpo 4 inch iso..oh and the frecking office managers moved our materials way across the complex so we had to carry that **** back to the building and then up the stairs and then up the ladder. at one point i said "i think im seriously about to cry" and my crew guy said "me too"... lol...

so yesterday i knock on that guys door that i saw at 4 am. no answer. 3 times no answer... just as we are about to leave this little girl says do you have a cel phone can i use it... i handed it to her and said u live in that building, yes, u live on the top floor? yes... BINGO. 

she handed me the phone back and as soon as i got in my car i called the number back. hi, im the roofer.. bla bla bla.. were you home when the building flooded last week? yes, do u remember what time it was? yep i sure do it was about *230* REALLY. then he says, i was sitting in my lr watching tv and i see the office mgr go up the ladder.. then the other office mgr goes up there, then they come down then few min later they go back up... he said i kept thinking what the hell are they doing up there? then a mexican guy went up there... and as soon as he came down, i heard something dripping. i said dripping like drip................drip..........................drip.................he said no it was all of the sudden. dripdripdripdrip and about 20 min later the ceiling caved in.. called the office, nothing, 20 more min later called again... nothing... 45 min later emergency crew was here on the roof.

saw another tenant moving out the other day. asked her when it started she said about 230.

THOSE OFFICE MANAGERS HAD THE MAINTENANCE GUY CUT MY TARP THEN THEY RAN AROUND LIKE RESCUE RANGER CALLING THE EMERGENCY TARP CREW thinking haha we will show her.. but then they realized the didnt have my insurance information. THEN they realized that it wasnt my responsibility. stupid bitches. so today i couldnt hold it in any longer. i told the owner. he didnt believe me. he said i have text messages saying the roof was leaking with the times on them.. i said cool. ill hold while u read em
he was silent for about 4 minutes and then just said, all i want is for that roof to get finished. i said then keep everyone off of it! I said i know u dont want to hear it, and i dont wanna tell it to you but they are scammin you and when I busted them out about the sheetrock repair... they had to go scrambling cover that **** up and they have been trying to get me out of there ever since. 

so heres my question if any of you are still reading this long ass story. do any of you have video of a flat roof in the rain... how can i show this guy what it does and that if my tarp was not going to hold, it would have leaked right away. not held 3 hours of water and then leaked. it wouldnt have gone from everything being fine to dripdripdripdrip and 20 min later the ceilings caved in.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

heres some pics dont remember which order i posted them in but.. one is the side where they cut my two tarps off the parapet wall.. the emergency tarp is pulled back and my tarp is cut. then theres a few of how we taped off the scuppers and how dry the iso was underneath. i cap nailed bottom tarp the taped edge then put another on top and taped to bottom one..


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Looks like sabotage to me


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

I would tell you why you are still liable for it but I don't think that's what you are wanting to hear. All in all this sounds like such an "out-there" scenario in so many ways any experienced contractor would have had nothing to do with it. Can't tell what actually occurred just by those pictures. Best of luck with it.


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## FerrisHI (Oct 20, 2010)

The fact that the owner came in and said "stop because he wants to get bids" sounds like a sign that there is no contract between you guys...if thats the case get the hell out of dodge as quick as possible


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

I stopped taking you serious when you didn't have a contract and then you started talking about the FBI. My BS detector went ding ding ding.


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

FerrisHI said:


> The fact that the owner came in and said "stop because he wants to get bids" sounds like a sign that there is no contract between you guys...if thats the case get the hell out of dodge as quick as possible


Too late. Enough drama for a made-for-tv movie though. All of that aside, the story shows a laundry list of things NOT to do as a contractor.

Is the OP a licensed ROOFING contractor with a multi-family dwelling rider?


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

I have had this happen a few times in the last 9yrs. Two building owners asked me to hold off??:blink:

I told them they needed to sign a waiver of liability. This waived our company of any liability should damages occur. Holding production was their decision. I also told them that they would pay for lost time. I schedule accordingly. Holding production for a few days KILLS our schedule. Not only do we lose those wages but we have to push everyone back. It's not fair to my guys or future customers and I make the building owner aware of that. If they want us to hold they will pay for their lack of planning!

Both time's the owners balked and I completed the project on time.

We did hold off one time on laying a roof (our decision). The building had years of water damage from the previous roof. We demo'd the entire roof and installed new trusses and a flat roof. We had the trusses hung and decked with a 30% chance of rain.

We opted to hold off drying it in and waiting till the next day to install the flat roof. It freakin' DUMPED!

The building owner was "fuming mad" or at least he acted that way. I had took pictures of the buildings contents before we ever started showing the extent of existing water damage. The owner was wanting me to replace all of his NASTY OLD carpet, install new subfloor, BLAH BLAH.

I pulled out our pictures and showed him the damage that was existing. Hell we had done him a favor. All the water simply cleaned the floor and had done no damage to the loading dock below or basement.

I told him to piss off! His building was already trashed and he wouldn't be getting a freebie from me! He threated me with the fact that he was from California (Sue Happy) to which I responded with my California contractors license and told him to bring it on or get the hell out of the way!

Needless to say we finished the job and got paid! Had there been damage that occurred from our water issue I would have gladly fixed it! Luckily enough I had video and picture evidence of the existing damage. I had bid the job in the pouring rain and took video to show my buddies how bad the roof was. Turns out it saved my arse!

People do have motives for doing this crap! It's your job to cover your own arse.


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

Sounds like an insurance scam with everyone involved .:whistling


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Property management firms can be scum.

Always take a crapload of pics. 

I did a ready to rent (new paint, floors, etc..) on a multi unit apartment house this winter. I thought the thermostat was broken as the temp was 90+ inside. Found out furnace was red tagged by utility comp and bypassed by management from a first floor unit. The guy had a tropical bird that he said required the hot climate.

When I told the owner and showed him pics of the red tag, he said he had been charged numerous times for repair....

Needless to say to management company tried to badmouth my work because i didn't install new blinds or light bulbs.

Take pics if you aren't walking away from a job that raises flags. Document the hell out of everything.


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## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

:laughing:
It's like dinner theater...


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

It's like something... :blink:


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I wonder how come the body language meter didn't pick anything up prior to the work starting?:bangin::bangin::bangin::bangin:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Renegade said:


> Too late. Enough drama for a made-for-tv movie though. All of that aside, the story shows a laundry list of things NOT to do as a contractor.
> 
> Is the OP a licensed ROOFING contractor with a multi-family dwelling rider?


No liscence for roofers in Texas.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Is it possible to write an enforceable contract?

The roof was torn off & all the sudden HO wants additional bids? WTF...

Maybe California ain't all that bad....:thumbsup::laughing::laughing:


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

Jaws said:


> No liscence for roofers in Texas.


So anyone can wake up in the morning and decide to be a contractor without a contractors license or insurance of any kind?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Renegade said:


> So anyone can wake up in the morning and decide to be a contractor without a contractors license or insurance of any kind?


Dont get me started 

I am the sitting president of our HBA, and have sat on the Texas Association Of Builders board for three years. I have fought TOOTH AND NAILagainst the chit azz trac builders for GENERAL CONTRACTORS licensing 

I even sat for a hybrid of the California and Colorado GC B tests for a sample. If you cant pass it you shouldn't be building 

They look down their nose at small time GCs like me from the trades with a shovel and a set of nail bags in their pick up.:no: They own the lobbyists. I gave a 4 miniute speech about the need for mandatory WC, and produced my certificate. They commended me for my time and said it would add TO MUCH TO THE COST OF HOUSING 

Im not done. Im young and pissed off, I will keep throwing it in the hat whether it does any good or not. 

So yes, to answer your question, a barber can throw a sign on his pick up and say he is a builder or roofer. Only MEPS and IRRIGATION are liscensed


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

Jaws said:


> Dont get me started
> 
> I am the sitting president of our HBA, and have sat on the Texas Association Of Builders board for three years. I have fought TOOTH AND NAILagainst the chit azz trac builders for GENERAL CONTRACTORS licensing
> 
> ...


Crap, and I thought Idaho was lax. I feel for the decent contractors and the customers.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

OK to answer everyone's questions and rectify some things, yes we have a contract and yes I am licensed general contractor registered w the state and all that. Legit llc. Not just someone who thinks up a name and irons it on a shirt and starts calling their one man show a company. And the no required license for roofers pisses me off too cuz during storm season every one w a ladder is suddenly a roofer. But that's going to change soon so I hear. 

I would actually like to hear why im technically responsible for the roof flooding tho. No sarcasam intended. But first let me tell u that the owner was buying the mats. Mistake #567. We had them ordered months in advance. He just didn't buy them. I told him if u think u can get it somewhere else cheaper go ahead but its gonna cost u more to tarp this than u will save. Not to mention we have 12 straight hours of rain coming! So at least let us put this roof on and u can fire my ass in the morning. I made sure to document the multiple times I told him this was a bad idea and I wasn't going to be held accountable for gross negligence. Neither would his insurance. I know mine won't. Then I let him know how ****ed up he was for pulling that move and reminded him we have a contract.. He said he wasn't planning on using another roofer he was just getting bids to help him understand my pricing. Whatever. 

And as far as the body language thing... I was in the military..on a base where nuclear missiles were loaded,stored.. Etc.. I'm not saying I went from secret agent to roofer. I was interested in it and I had the opportunity to learn it so I did. 

And yes this whole situation is beyond ridiculous. And I haven't even told u the half of it. And I won't because I am just glad its behind me. Even my crews won't come back here. I had to find another crew and even they left! But they were terrible anyway so who cares. Freckin took them 16 days to lay 34 squares. And three out of the four top units leaked. Different building. Existing Scupper problem on both ends and a 3 in section of seam that wasn't welded. I took resp.for all of it. 
So yeah. I made hella mistakes on this job by being too nice. Then I stuck with it because I had spent so much time on it. I also stuck it out because I have two more complexes after this one for this guy and I know now what not to do. Its been hell. But I didn't think he was in on the whole office racket... Cuz I keep having tenants come to me saying nothing is fixed. It just occurred to me that the tenants that don't want to move to the updated apartments and pay the extra money... Well they r never gonna fix their stuff Cuz they want them to move..


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

madrina said:


> OK to answer everyone's questions and rectify some things, yes we have a contract and yes I am licensed general contractor registered w the state and all that. Legit llc. Not just someone who thinks up a name and irons it on a shirt and starts calling their one man show a company. And the no required license for roofers pisses me off too cuz during storm season every one w a ladder is suddenly a roofer. But that's going to change soon so I hear.
> 
> I would actually like to hear why im technically responsible for the roof flooding tho. No sarcasam intended. But first let me tell u that the owner was buying the mats. Mistake #567. We had them ordered months in advance. He just didn't buy them. I told him if u think u can get it somewhere else cheaper go ahead but its gonna cost u more to tarp this than u will save. Not to mention we have 12 straight hours of rain coming! So at least let us put this roof on and u can fire my ass in the morning. I made sure to document the multiple times I told him this was a bad idea and I wasn't going to be held accountable for gross negligence. Neither would his insurance. I know mine won't. Then I let him know how ****ed up he was for pulling that move and reminded him we have a contract.. He said he wasn't planning on using another roofer he was just getting bids to help him understand my pricing. Whatever.
> 
> ...


Liscensed and registered in which state?


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Jaws thats not entirely true.. Builders have to be licensed.. Everyone but roofers really.


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

Jaws said:


> Dont get me started
> 
> I am the sitting president of our HBA, and have sat on the Texas Association Of Builders board for three years. I have fought TOOTH AND NAILagainst the chit azz trac builders for GENERAL CONTRACTORS licensing
> 
> ...


Sounds like a commendable effort, way to go John.


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

Are these the buildings from the IR scans, just curious. Its quite a situation your in, I wish I has some advice to offer, sounds like sabotage to me as well.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

madrina said:


> Jaws thats not entirely true.. Builders have to be licensed.. Everyone but roofers really.


Oh yeah????? 

Call TDLR this morning. Its absolutely true. 

Builders used to have to be registered with TRCC, until the lobbyists shut TRCC down  But that was a registration, nothing like a liscence. 

There is no liscence for GCs here. Irrigation, MEPs. 

Pretty sad when you dont know the liscence requirements of the state your working in. So my question is, again, which state are you liscensed and registered in? :blink:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

http://www.tdlr.state.tx.us/

there is the link :thumbsup: go find a general contractor or roofer liscence or registration.


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## JWilliams (Nov 11, 2008)

Looks like I'm moving to Texas! :thumbup:


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

There ya go. That's as licensed as ya can get round these parts.. Do u want to see my usgbc member status or my leed certifications too? Does this qualify me as a contractor now or am I still a poser? 

Last i heard you had to be a licensed home builder to build homes.. I guess thats changed in the last 2-3 years?

My bad. I must say that as sad as it may be that I don't keep up to speed w which trade requires a license.. I think its ever sadder that you sat on the board in two states and you can't even spell license. 

I'm just sayin..

Plus you have to be licensed and registered w the state to pull permits. Every job over $500 requires a permit.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Sorry for the rant and the TYPO, but you are producing a registration for the city, not a license. Big difference. There is no license in the state of Texas for builders or roofers. What you are referring to is registration for TRCC (Texas Residential Construction Commision), it was sunseted in 07 or 08.

To me a license should have a barrier of entry, a test you have to pass. 

I apologize for the insulting tone, its a sore subject.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

TAHomeRepairs said:


> Are these the buildings from the IR scans, just curious. Its quite a situation your in, I wish I has some advice to offer, sounds like sabotage to me as well.


Yes they are the buildings from the thermal scans.. I think its sabotoge too... But I just can't bring myself to say "they are trying to sabotoge me" without rolling my own eyes. 

I took pics of all the damage in every unit in every building before I even touched em. That complex was in bad shape and with the tile from the mansard leaking, the roofs leaking the windows leaking and even the stucco leaking. I knew I was gonna need to document the pre existing state of that place.

The first 3 buildings I only went to the units that they told me were leaking... We finished 120 sq in 6 days... 4 freckin layers of built up tear off..that's 65,000 lbs on one building Redecked about 30 sqs Total... 

Then he calls me and tells me they still have leaks in a few units.. I said well yeah cause you have missing tiles on the mansards he says well I think you're responsible for that. I said how so I was not contracted to do the mansard. He said well it's part of the roof and how do I know if I hadn't just replaced those tiles I wouldn't have to replace the roof? I said well you have leaks coming in from everywhere and he said well I hold you accountable for that because that's part of the roof. I said with my teeth gritted.. OK that's fair enough.. As a roofer I should have brought that to your attention... Even though there were contractors working on the tiles when I first got there and there was never any mention of it in ANY WAY prior to this conversation. So on the 3 buildings I've done I will find and repair the leaks but moving forward I will not be responsible for anything other than the flat roof unless specifically stated in the contract. He said fine. Y'all have seen the tile pics in another post. Just out of curiosity... What would you have done in that situation?


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

I find it hard to believe you think you are being sabotaged for one reason. 

If I thought I was being sabotaged I would never speak a word of it to any one. Not my workers, my wife or any one else. I would proceed as I had been but would set up some cameras to monitor the roof or other work area (without invading someones privacy obviously). When people caught word I was onto them it would be when I had proof. 

But then again I don't have FBI training.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Jaws said:


> Sorry for the rant and the TYPO, but you are producing a registration for the city, not a license. Big difference. There is no license in the state of Texas for builders or roofers. What you are referring to is registration for TRCC (Texas Residential Construction Commision), it was sunseted in 07 or 08.
> 
> To me a license should have a barrier of entry, a test you have to pass.
> 
> I apologize for the insulting tone, its a sore subject.


I couldn't agree more. A test at the very least. There are too many contractors out there doing really dumb stuff because they don't know any better. That's why I try to go the extra step with leed. Because honestly getting my home repair license and contractors registration took all of $300 & half a days time. Its a joke.. It didn't make me any better or worse than someone w out a license. 

a guy I worked with for about 15 yrs was a homebuilder..it amazed me how much he knew about everything. When I started roofing he wanted to do it w me and he said his license just expired.... But that it wouldn't be hard to get back... So I guess there IS licensing... Its just not required?? Correct? Can't imagine that anyone who isn't documented gets much work.. 

And no worries about sticking your nose in the air earlier.. Lol. I was just giving u a jab. One guy to another. Lol


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

FrankSmith said:


> I find it hard to believe you think you are being sabotaged for one reason.
> 
> If I thought I was being sabotaged I would never speak a word of it to any one. Not my workers, my wife or any one else. I would proceed as I had been but would set up some cameras to monitor the roof or other work area (without invading someones privacy obviously). When people caught word I was onto them it would be when I had proof.
> 
> But then again I don't have FBI training.


Haha.. Now that's funny.. 

I seriously thought about doing that, I made a joke to my biz partner that I was gonna set up a camera on the roof and tie into the HVAC unit for power.. And if I knew how to do that I prob would. 

The office staff is such a bunch of bitches. They shut off power to the building yesterday. They know we were plugging our guns in... And our lights because we stayed after dark to finish up. Then they told us we couldn't run the generator.. I was like really? Guess what?! And just cranked that **** up and got back on the roof. Those bitches couldn't figure out how to turn it off even if they wanted to. We finished it last night! Yea! Then the owner text me this morning.. I'm going to copy the texts. I think I made up mind about finishing off this job.. It just sucks to give up 750 grand in business. Plus whatever follows. Especially after I've done all the footwork.. But this is the petty ass **** i have to deal with.. People were back on the freckin roof again today!!!!!!

This is from him.. 

(1/2) We are suppose to get bad rain today.I'm told there are still large gaps on roof of building fifteen asking parapet wall, where you haven't connected to (2/2) old roof yet. Please give me update immediately. Do you want us to tarp?

I'm sorry for the delayed response. No you don't need to tarp. The roof is finished.

Judging by photos, tpo didn't go up wall one foot 

Tpo was all cut to 18 inches. 6 on the deck and 12 on the wall. It was in the middle of the night when we put it up. And the building is not level. So it may be higher in some spots and lower in others. Unavoidable when welding seams with out buckling material. . 












On another wall it looks like its not more than

an inch up wall. 

Schedule a final walk thru with me please so you can see for yourself. At that time you can give me a punch list and we will make the roof to your satisfaction. I am not going to entertain the misinformation you recieve from other people. I am the roofer. I am the one who knows what's going on the roof. Ask me not them

They just sent me a photo showing what I said

OK well like I said, let's schedule a walk thru. And if you want us to make changes we will.


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

So what are you doing to finish the walls?


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## LCG (May 30, 2011)

Madrina,

Typically I like your posts and usually agree with you.

BUUUT...

That parapet looks like FOO-FOO.

I have not seen in ANY detail, a single ply, term'ed over a granulated cap sheet! I would hope, at the least, you installed some sort of water stop behind the TPO. 

I may find it somewhat suitable if the cap sheet were cut and over lapped over the TPO. Even then...

Unlike Jaws (Who I enjoy very much) I could care less about licensing. I have lived in California and Utah (both required testing) and was fully licensed (General Contractor) in both states. Here in Wyoming we are required to have licensing in certain municipalities but not all. (Again we are ICC certified, work comp, general liability, etc...) To me it is more important (for roofing) to be certified by the manufacturer you are installing.

We are certified IB, Carlisle, Duro, Fibertite as well as some Shingle manufacturers. 

Madrina...It looks like you just bought some TPO from the local roofing supply house and are installing without warranty or a material warranty at best. 

Are you certified to install the TPO you are installing? Judging from that parapet wall... I would say you need to read the detail book again at the very least!

Don't let this guy get the best of your work. WHEN this goes to litigation! Your chit' better be flawless because they are going to have a "NON BIAS" roofer evaluate your work and pick it apart!

By all means this guy should pay you for the work completed before final repairs are made. Our contracts (for private) are 50/20/20/10. You should only have 10% left on the table at this point.

Good luck!


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

The walls are finished.that's how he wanted them. Because he thought the walls were in good shape. Trust me I know its a bad idea but at this point I was like whatever. The owner doesn't want to be charged waste either because he can't measure waste.? I said well we can!! Why spend 20 grand on a roof and then do something like go up the wall a foot? I don't get it. He might have saved a whole grand.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Edited


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

Thanks,those pics were taken right before the sun went down. In case I had to send them to the owner.. So we werent finished at this point. Yes i ran a bead of water cut off behind the term bar.. One tube per ten feet actually. ; and used some white Carlisle single ply sealant for the bead where the two roofs met.. Ah impressed ain't cha? Well don't be. I had to Google it. Lol. And I haven't got into the office staff running up there every time we left and tarping it... But that's what all the cap nails are from. Speaking of what's the going rate for tarp removal?(Somebody else's tarp.)


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

madrina said:


> The walls are finished.*that's how he wanted them. Because he thought the walls were in good shape. Trust me I know its a bad idea but at this point I was like whatever.* The owner doesn't want to be charged waste either because he can't measure waste.? I said well we can!! Why spend 20 grand on a roof and then do something like go up the wall a foot? I don't get it. He might have saved a whole grand.


Whenever I read this I cringe. When a cut corner, cut at owners request, results in something bad it's most likely going to end on the up on the contractors head.

And if what you have been saying about these guys is true then to do the job to anything other than "by the book" standards seems like begging them to ef you good and hard.

I don't let folks tell me how to do my job; if they want hack work, they can go find a hack.

When they sign the contract it becomes **my** job.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

madrina said:


> The walls are finished.that's how he wanted them. Because he thought the walls were in good shape. Trust me I know its a bad idea but at this point I was like whatever. The owner doesn't want to be charged waste either because he can't measure waste.? I said well we can!! Why spend 20 grand on a roof and then do something like go up the wall a foot? I don't get it. He might have saved a whole grand.


Why do people listen to customer opinions so much in the sales process. Weather the side wall detail is done correctly or incorrectly should not be up for negotiation. If the customer insists all you have to do is tell him one of two things:



My bid will include that regardless because it has to be done

or 

If you are unwilling to pay to have that part of the project done, I am unwilling to bid on this job. 


It is not unprofessional or rood to insist that you are going to do the job right. Customers may be weird about it for a minute but when they see you insist on not doing the job the wrong way they are going to want you to do the work. 


I had a customer who wanted a bid to fix a leak. I looked at it and had to re shingle two valleys, some side wall step flashing and some house paper/siding. I told him it would cost $700. He freaked out and told me to go sharpen my pencil and call him back later. I told him in a firm but friendly manner that I don't care if he has me do the job or not but if he does it will be $700. I told him I could tell he had already paid 4 guys $100 to cover it in tar and he can keep doing that if he wants to. It got a bit uncomfortable but he told me to do the job. He now calls me for everything. 


I find you have to be a bit defensive about people interrupting your process to try to save money. Your customer is trying to cheap out at your expense. You have to warranty that roof and should charge $5,000 extra for your warranty because you know the side wall will leak. 

$25,000 with no side wall, $21,000 with. Your choice.

When you loose a job because of refusing to have people tell you how to do the job cheaper, just remember you probably didn't really want that job.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

LCG He did not want a NDL warranty. He told me that his other roofer was warranting the work for 15 years.. I said that's ridiculous, no body warranties work for 15 years. Then I told him that a warranty is only as good as the integrity of the person who gives it. I said, If you agree to let me have the maintenance contract on these roofs and do a coating every 5 years I will warranty the work for 15 years. Im not really worried about it. I have told him time and time and time again to keep people off the roof and the management steady has people up there non stop. every frecking day someone else is on the roof doing ????? He has already voided the warranty on every roof. AND thats after I gave him several chances to address the things that voided them. So to answer the question, no im not certified to give an nDL but my sub is. 

The first 3 buildings... we did in 6 days.. no probs, he wanted us to stop the tpo under the coping cap... I said no we have to go over the parapet wall and down 2 inches. He didnt want to pay for it and I surely wasnt going to pay for it, so we stopped under the coping on the inside. just as he insisted. Then he held me accountable for the frecking tiles and yadi yadi, I said f that, that was dirty. next one we are going up and over... so we did... but that created all sorts of static because he wanted to know why he was charged the same price for the walls as the deck when the walls didnt get iso, then he wanted us to leave the walls instead of tearing out and just layover them... since i had already quoted him a price for a layover, he wanted to know why i couldnt charge him for a layover on the walls and a tearout on the deck... he asked us if we could not glue the walls and just tack nail it under the coping. i said no. then he said he wanted us to just glue the seams or spot glue the walls.. i said no. 

After the first 3 buildings... this is when all of this started taking place.. it took him 2 months to choose a system for the 4th building and we ended up doing it just like we suggested in the first place. And he didnt agree with any of my measurements. he literally came up on the roof and said " this is 4foot 3 inches not 4 foot 6 inches!" i said yeah well its 4 foot 9 over there. and right here where we tapered the drain its 4' 10. Are you serious? so I ordered eagle view on every building. but that wasnt good enuf because eagleview rounds to the nearest foot. so he said he wanted me to schedule a meeting with his guy and measure them together. When I met up with the guy he told me that he was instructed to take 4 measurements on each wall and average them. I told him, well you know what? good luck with that. send it to me when you are done. I have measured these buildings every which way possible and i am not taking another frecking one. Then I called the owner and told him that this was the biggest waste of time and money and I wasnt going to do it. So what did he do? called another roofer out to take measurements and give him a bid on the job! this was the same time he ask me to tarp and hold off. I saw the guy taking measurements and ask him what he was doing. He was very respectful and knew he was on someone elses turf. I asked him who he worked for and when he told me i said didnt you already bid this job? he said no, i dont think so? I said thats funny because the owner sent me over a proposal from yal wanting me to match your prices. He said well i dont know whats going on im just doing what my boss told me to. I said well call your boss and tell him that what your doing is wasting your time because this job has already been contracted. 

At the time I thought the guy was just measuring the building we were tarping, but when we were finished I saw him on a building we had already done... so i gathered that the owner was just using the guy to take measurements for him since he didnt believe mine were accurate and I wouldnt take them with his guy and waste more of my time. 

Ya.. i know im frecking retarded i know. i should have walked a LONG TIME AGO. But i stuck with it because I wanted to do these jobs.. we have one more in dallas, one more in waco and one in austin.... it was like 2000 sq of tpo and 1250 sq of shingles. For that, I can put up with some ****. I just kept telling myself that every good relationship I have, started off with some turmoil.. I know the guy is trying to save money every way he can.. thats why I let him go back on the contract.. but it just got out of control. meanwhile im upholding my end of the contract in every way, he was runnin with the hook in his mouth. Id like to say I just had to yank real hard and reel him back in. but what really happened was after he asked me to tarp that last building I just thru the pole in the water. At him in the water... like i tried to spear him with the pole. And accidentally.. I hit him and nailed him to the ground. You know it was like that 1 in a million full court throw that actually makes the basket and wins the game at the last second... Because after the building flooded, he was a different person. 

he was all "what do we do now" whats it going to cost? ok ok ok. it was great.. for like a day. i was like FFFFU$%^^&& FINALLY. I wrote a new contract, and basically let him know from this point forward, this is how things were going to go down, or I wouldnt continue with him.

Then this bs with his office staff started happening. The new contract did not include the building that flooded. so i was going to finish that one off and then meet with him and have him sign it or i was going to walk. I thought we'd be done in 2 days with it.. but the office ppl jumped the gun and tarped it 3 times!!! then wouldnt let us up on the roof to work.. then we had to take down their tarp every time and the put our materials in a storage and wouldnt give us a key.. way across the complex. Then they stole my tools and thru all our materials off the roof twice. I was so ****ing mad. they threw them UNDER all the trash they threw in the backyard. 
After we showed up ready to work 3 frecking times and got sent home, my guys wouldnt come out there anymore. I was already pulling them off of other crews trying to get this **** done cuz he f'ed my schedule up so bad by cancelling and then having us waste all this time tearing down their tarps that didnt work for ****. and to top it all off you know when someone makes a stupid ass decision that you tell them not to make then they do it anyway? then youre supposed to rearrange everything in your life to hurry up and fix it for them? this mf had the nerve to call me at 1030 am and be like 'oK MATERIALS ARE HERE WHERE ARE YOUR GUYS?" i was like um its raining.. He was like Yeah i know we need to hurry. I said yeah... i dont think so. Im not sticking any of my guys on a ladder or a roof in the middle of a storm. hello duh..?? he said Well what should i do? i said um pray?

then he calls me like an hour later saying his prayers didnt wk. lol.. it was kindof sweet justice in a way... but i dont wish that on anyone. especially the tenants. 

now finally we are done and i dont even want to give him this contract after the bull**** his office put us thru. stole my tools, threw all this trash off the roof into a back yard in stead of the dumpster... so even tho im pissed i took their tarps and put all the trash on the tarps so we could drag it to the dumpster and they went and grabbed their tarps and put all the **** back on the ground!! 

its just bull****. then trying to pen the flooding on me and everything else i mentioned. i am a dumbass for even considering working for this guy anymore right?

The only reason I am considering it is because I do not believe that he had anything to do with the cutting of the tarp. He knew it was his call, He knew at that point that I wasnt responsible if it did flood. He has already told me prior to picking the roofing system that he never wants to file a claim again because his deductible was 250 grand. I just dont think he made that call and I dont think the office bitches really thought that through. Now they are screwed and probably got their asses chewed for that building flooding, thats why they were up their tarping it every five seconds.. and i also think that he doesnt want to believe that his office did that to him. I understand.. You have to trust the people that run your business... you have to. And now that I busted them out, they are doing everything in their power to make me look like ****, and turn the focus off of them. basically they are not accepting responsibility for what they did and its a team effort to save their jobs. 
Ive sent my final invoice to them, the owner is out of town til tuesday, and we are scheduled to do a walk thru at that time. This will be the first time I have to face him since I told him about his office cutting the tarp. I think im just going to go about my biz as if its over. At this point I dont really care either way. Whether he was in on it or not, if he cant control his people then screw it. I really dont think he is a bad guy tho. Just difficult because he doesn't understand construction. I cant fault him for that. What I really want is for him to cut me a check for half the remaining project and keep everyone off my roofs and watch me knock out the remaining 9 buildings in 2 weeks. just to show him how **** is supposed to go. and i really dont want to let the bitches in the office knock my hustle. not after all the work i have done on this project. ill let yal know how things turn out.. i would like to hear every ones opinion on the subject; it puts things in perspective.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

madrina said:


> I couldn't agree more. A test at the very least. There are too many contractors out there doing really dumb stuff because they don't know any better. That's why I try to go the extra step with leed. Because honestly getting my home repair license and contractors registration took all of $300 & half a days time. Its a joke.. It didn't make me any better or worse than someone w out a license.
> 
> a guy I worked with for about 15 yrs was a homebuilder..it amazed me how much he knew about everything. When I started roofing he wanted to do it w me and he said his license just expired.... But that it wouldn't be hard to get back... So I guess there IS licensing... Its just not required?? Correct? Can't imagine that anyone who isn't documented gets much work..
> 
> And no worries about sticking your nose in the air earlier.. Lol. I was just giving u a jab. One guy to another. Lol


No license or documentation here, even with the citys. Just pull the permit. Some municipalitys here require GL to pull a permit as a GC. Some of the subdivisions I work in you have to be on their list to build or remodel there.

Your friend was refering to the TRCC registration, many GCs thought of it as a license. It was a fee, no felony record, and a registration number.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

john what city are you in?


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

If I kept on finding myself in the middle of dramatic situations, I'd try to figure out why, and change something.


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## madrina (Feb 21, 2013)

I have been trying to figure that out. Its my fault I know. Well most of it anyhow. Ive decided I need to start telling my customers "no" more often. Seems like the more i try to please them the more work I end up doing and the more confused they get and the end result is lots of frustration on both ends. 

I know better. Every customer wants to get at your bottom dollar. The more you give the more they think there is to be had. If u tell them no right off the bat... They usually stop asking. 

But what do you say when a customer tells you they don't know what they want on their roof and they need you to quote it 10 different ways in order for them to decide? Next time I'm just going to jump off the roof on their property and hope for sympathy. Lol..


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